# Poll #6 - Pigeon-Talk Classic



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If you participated in or were interested in the first annual Pigeon-Talk Classic race, please take a moment to answer a few questions to assist in determining whether there will be a second Pigeon-Talk Classic and how best to manage it.

Feel free to post any questions or comments you may have in this thread.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Bumping up to get this in today's new posts.

Terry


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

I think 95% of the money should go to the breeder.
There is no right for the trainer to take some of the money because there is no entry fee and prize money for the PT race.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> I think 95% of the money should go to the breeder.
> There is no right for the trainer to take some of the money because there is no entry fee and prize money for the PT race.


Why? In this case the trainer spent a whole lot more money on the bird than the breeder when you really think about it.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, I didn't think of it that way,


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

fresnobirdman said:


> I think 95% of the money should go to the breeder.
> There is no right for the trainer to take some of the money because there is no entry fee and prize money for the PT race.


The idea here if we continue to keep it free the guy who handles the race or trainer could get some money back. This year for example it was free to send birds other then shipping. I forked out $250 to race the series plus meds and feed around $700, add in gas and time, you are well north of $1,500. That is about what it costs me to race my own young bird team. I was able and willing to do it because I would of spent the time and money anyway. Who ever ends up hosting a race needs to be able to get a little coinage back. Auction, buy back, or perch/race fee is just a few ideas I had.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

How many birds were sent to you for the race? What kind of money do we need to put up
Dave


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Flapdoodle said:


> The idea here if we continue to keep it free the guy who handles the race or trainer could get some money back. This year for example it was free to send birds other then shipping. I forked out $250 to race the series plus meds and feed around $700, add in gas and time, you are well north of $1,500. That is about what it costs me to race my own young bird team. I was able and willing to do it because I would of spent the time and money anyway. Who ever ends up hosting a race needs to be able to get a little coinage back. Auction, buy back, or perch/race fee is just a few ideas I had.


Do you have any money races in your area? Like here we have 10 to 15 money races that birds could be entered into. My Idea would be to offset cost to the handler is have all the birds entered into a money race the breeder would pay to entry fee to the money race and prize won would be split 50/50. So this would give the handler an incentive to train and handle the birds better since they have money riding on weather the birds do good or not. And then if the breeder did have to pay atleast there would be a prize for the breeder and a chance to win their entry fee back and alot more.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

fresnobirdman said:


> I think 95% of the money should go to the breeder.
> There is no right for the trainer to take some of the money because there is no entry fee and prize money for the PT race.


WOW, I am taking a step back. Maybe I am going to be a little to fast in saying this but after this comment I say charge to enter and make it enough to cover all exspenses. Then if fresnobirdsman looses he looses all, as in a hawk first time out. This is all in fun but I believe some people do not know what truly is involved in pulling this off. Think about it, all the breeder did is put two birds together, they did the hard work, he feed them. Now, this young bird not even knowing how to fly is put in a box and sent to a person that is going to teach him all the tricks. I don't see where you come off as saying the trainer desirves nothing. OK, I am going to shut it. >Kevin


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Do we have a candidate for next years handler yet?


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I am a candidate. I think is someone else is interested head over to poll #3 and post away. I really liked doing it and will do it again. If we do go a different direction next year, I am fine with that. The guys in my club would love to each give me a team of four to six birds to race in the club and combine and see how they stack up against each other. 

As was already mentioned if we have enough members wanting to send birds we could split the group between different lofts. Birds would be flying under different terrains.

After we get as much input as we can here this week. I and who ever else wants to handle birds will need to look at the info and then get back to the group and say this is what I am able to do, the handler will set the terms and we can ship birds or keep birds at home. Ultimately, it will be up to each handler. 

If we did have multiple lofts in different areas we could figure out each birds UPR how the AU does for National Ace Pigeon Award. We could still have one winner even though birds were flying in different parts of the country.

http://www.pigeon.org/nationalchampionloftawards.htm


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

In this case do we get an option as to whether we want our birds auctioned off or not? I wouldn't be happy if my bird was in the top percent and I didn't get it back to breed. I mean, sure I'd have the parents (except in this year's case, in which a lot of my breeders got killed off by the dog), but I don't have many breeders who have actually won races.


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## Kenneth Flippen (Sep 5, 2009)

I voted 50/50 but why not give some to support the website?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I just noticed there are two 50/50 options?


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I just noticed there are two 50/50 options?


Yeah....one of them should be 60/40!!! Then I would go for 60/40 breeder/handler!!!


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I would still like to know how many birds you started with this year. Just to have a clue as too how much would have to be charged for Tom to at least break even.
Dave


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Crazy Pete said:


> I would still like to know how many birds you started with this year. Just to have a clue as too how much would have to be charged for Tom to at least break even.
> Dave


I started in April with 55 birds, 31 from the forum and 24 of mine. 
At the first race we were down to 38. 
After the races we were down to 22 birds. It was a tough year for losses and tough races on the birds. I don't plan on breaking even but it would be nice to get a little back.



MaryOfExeter said:


> I just noticed there are two 50/50 options?


Two 50/50 options. One was half for the handler half the breeder that sent the bird. Top five/ten birds each breeder that sent the bird would get half. 


The other was half handler half for the breeder of our champ bird. 

Let say put the top five up for auction. The top breeder in this case SFL would get 1/2 the proceeds for all five birds. Basically a prize for breeding the champ bird. The guy who handles the race would also get some money.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

So if you had another 50 + birds and you got $15 or $20 per bird, you could always charge Warren $150.00 so he would think he was going to a big race.lol that would cover at least half of your expence. That would be good?
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

My thinking is if most people are too cheap to pay $25 or $50 to enter a bird, which was a very token amount to begin with, they will be to cheap to bid on a bird any amount that would make a dent in the expense of holding such an event. Many folks had months to plan for the token amount which was asked for this last time, and then at the last minute, many started whining that they didn't have the funds. Truth of the matter, had it not been for generous contribution of time and money by the handler, (Tom Brasher) there would not have been an event. And Conditionfreak for paying out nearly a hundred bucks for a trophy. 

Most One Loft events charge $100 to $125 for a perch fee to cover the expense of housing, feeding, training etc. the birds. That does not cover the expense of what is called the Capital prize money. 

I am not 100% sure, but I think there are some folks who are offering an opinoin on the subject in one of these polls, and they never sent birds to the Pigeon Talk Classic. Those IMHO, who should be offering an opinion, are those who would send a bird to next years event, along with a check for say $25 in order to cover the cost of feed, etc. and perhaps a trophy. If you are not willing to do that, then IMHO, there is really no point in one throwing in their 2 cents. 

Just an FYI, I compete in events which cost many hundreds to enter, and none of those hold an auction, because the breeders do not want them. And that is where in the past, the top birds went for thousands. My thinking is if the owner wants to auction off his birds, then fine, place them on iPigeon after the event and auction them off.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My thinking is if most people are too cheap to pay $25 or $50 to enter a bird, which was a very token amount to begin with, they will be to cheap to bid on a bird any amount that would make a dent in the expense of holding such an event. Many folks had months to plan for the token amount which was asked for this last time, and then at the last minute, many started whining that they didn't have the funds. Truth of the matter, had it not been for generous contribution of time and money by the handler, (Tom Brasher) there would not have been an event. And Conditionfreak for paying out nearly a hundred bucks for a trophy.
> 
> Most One Loft events charge $100 to $125 for a perch fee to cover the expense of housing, feeding, training etc. the birds. That does not cover the expense of what is called the Capital prize money.
> 
> ...


Warren if you read the first post in each of these threads you would see that Terry said


TAWhatley said:


> If you participated in or were interested in the first annual Pigeon-Talk Classic race, please take a moment to answer a few questions to assist in determining whether there will be a second Pigeon-Talk Classic and how best to manage it.
> 
> Feel free to post any questions or comments you may have in this thread.
> 
> Terry


 So to me that means anybody who was interested not just those who entered birds last year. This isn't about last years race it's about a race in the future. You always talk about money like it's nothing most ppl aren't as lucky as you to have all kinds of extra money to throw at a pigeon race. Many ppl are retired on a fixed income or are young just strating out and don't have the money to waste.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Come on folks (Warren .. listen up) .. For cripes sake, this was a race based upon interest from the Pigeon-Talk forum. This was not a huge money race with big fees .. this was just a race among friends and members here who sent their birds to see how they would do.

It seems to me that the interest in the race has been enough to try and do it again next year. I hope that happens, BUT let's not forget that most members here are just regular folks or even youngsters who cannot foot the bill for the "big time" one loft races. My personal opinion is that the costs of the handler need to be met but beyond that, you are all free to do whatever you want as long as you realize that this ain't the Flamingo Classic or the mega millions South African Race .. this IS the Pigeon-Talk race.

Get real folks and keep it friendly as you have.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TAWhatley said:


> Come on folks (Warren .. listen up) .. For cripes sake, this was a race based upon interest from the Pigeon-Talk forum. This was not a huge money race with big fees .. this was just a race among friends and members here who sent their birds to see how they would do.
> 
> It seems to me that the interest in the race has been enough to try and do it again next year. I hope that happens, BUT let's not forget that most members here are just regular folks or even youngsters who cannot foot the bill for the "big time" one loft races. * My personal opinion is that the costs of the handler need to be met but beyond that*, you are all free to do whatever you want as long as you realize that this ain't the Flamingo Classic or the mega millions South African Race .. this IS the Pigeon-Talk race.
> 
> ...


My point exactly ! 

My responses were only to suggest that paying even the highest amount suggested $50, is not really that big of a deal. And I only made this suggestion because there were people that were saying if everything wasn't all free that there would be far fewer participants. You would think from some of the responses on these various threads, that I was suggesting a $125 perch fee, a $500 capital prize fee....and then hot spot races, and pooling besides....gee whiz.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Warren you're something else man....

Why do you think TAWhatley specifically called you out?! Lol....Big money race....Big entree fees....Flamingo Classic....isn't that what Warren Smith and the Smith birds are all about?!

Get over yourself man!....oh....and that's all tongue in cheek of course!

Let's just move on....


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*This race started out to be a fun thing for bragging rights it has now gone to a money race and that is what I was afraid of. Tom should be paid for his time ect, I also think that PT should be careful that they don't have some trouble having a money race,as when it comes to money many people get upset over losing and this can lead to problems. Afew years back the AU held a race in the SAN FRANCISCO AREA or was it SEATTLE it was a money race well one of the guys that had birds in the race was unhappy to the point that he turn them in for gambling. The point is be careful in what we do * GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

george simon said:


> *This race started out to be a fun thing for bragging rights it has now gone to a money race and that is what I was afraid of. Tom should be paid for his time ect, I also think that PT should be careful that they don't have some trouble having a money race,as when it comes to money many people get upset over losing and this can lead to problems. Afew years back the AU held a race in the SAN FRANCISCO AREA or was it SEATTLE it was a money race well one of the guys that had birds in the race was unhappy to the point that he turn them in for gambling. The point is be careful in what we do * GEORGE


Don't think you have anything to worry about, many of the posters are upset because I suggested that they pay enough to cover expenses and to some folks, that means it is a "money race". Makes me wonder who is paying their racing fees in their local clubs ? Or, if they are even members of a local club ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Warren you're something else man....
> 
> Why do you think TAWhatley specifically called you out?! Lol....Big money race....Big entree fees....Flamingo Classic....isn't that what Warren Smith and the Smith birds are all about?!
> 
> ...


 I know I am....for suggesting that good folks like Tom, should not have to cover the expenses for everyone. The typical One Loft event charges $100 for a perch fee to cover feeding, training, medicating, transporting, etc, etc. I made the mistake of suggesting that $25 or even $50 per bird was not out of line....and OMG !! I was suggesting that this was a BIG money race.  I give up....... You guys are something else.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Move on*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I know I am....for suggesting that good folks like Tom, should not have to cover the expenses for everyone. The typical One Loft event charges $100 for a perch fee to cover feeding, training, medicating, transporting, etc, etc. I made the mistake of suggesting that $25 or even $50 per bird was not out of line....and OMG !! I was suggesting that this was a BIG money race.  I give up....... You guys are something else.


 I never stated I would not be willing to pay TOM for racing in this event, it was Tom that set the rules and played the game for everybody. He took these birds and played them like his own and if he needed money as bad as you he would have asked for it, even if was a little at a time. If I had to pay a hundred dollars a bird to enter this year to race, I would do just that to smoke you out. I think it was unfair for Toms birds to be excluded from the race results, from what I remember seing he whomped your featers. As for young flyers, it is truly degrading for you knock them down like this because of lack of BIG bucks. I believe some are thinking, GEEZZZE if this is what it is like who needs it. >Kevin


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Move On Again.....*



pattersonk2002 said:


> ..... He took these birds and played them like his own and if he needed money as bad as you he would have asked for it, even if was a little at a time. *If I had to pay a hundred dollars a bird to enter this year to race, I would *do just that to smoke you out. I think it was unfair for Toms birds to be excluded from the race results, from what I remember seing he whomped your featers. As for young flyers, *it is truly degrading for you knock them down like this because of lack of BIG bucks.* I believe some are thinking, GEEZZZE if this is what it is like who needs it. >Kevin


True Kevin, 

if I had done that..... but I didn't. I did suggest that folks who were unwilling to part with $25 or $50 to offset the expenses would be cheap. But, I never figured that some folks like yourself would consider that BIG bucks, apparently you did....sorry. But, if $25 or $50 is BIG bucks to you, then not sure why you even bring up a $100 figure  

At any rate, I am now excusing myself from not only this subject related thread, but this future event as well. My comments were directed towards adults and not those living at home with their parents, as I stated in one of my posts. 

If you want to "smoke me out" Kevin, I suggest then that you start now, and save up your allowance, cause it's gonna cost you a whole lot more then even that "huge" figure that you said you would be willing to pay, to find out how bad you would get "smoked". 

Now I know what Mike meant when he said, "Nobody likes a Winner"


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> .......Those IMHO, who should be offering an opinion, are those who would send a bird to next years event, along with a check for say *$25* in order to cover the cost of feed, etc. and perhaps a trophy. If you are not willing to do that, then IMHO, there is really no point in one throwing in their 2 cents.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I don't want to beat a dead horse to death, as stated in previous posts, I will not be involved in this event next year, and will not be moderating or posting concerning this subject thread going forward. However, I did discover a typo which may have contributed to some of the hostile responses I got. I had intended to enter $25 in the above quote, but I had entered 125, which might explain why some folks had thought I was suggesting this be a BIG money event. At any rate, much like our Combine Pigeon Meetings, opening up such issues to discussion, ends up turning to debate, and then personal barbs. Sorry I even tried to contribute to this particular conversation.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Lol....you seem to have missed the point that Tom basically donated his time and money to handle the last race for the good people here at PT. I don't think anyone really had any problems before you started with calling people cheap. It's whenever you throw your money and high dollar birds around like you run things is when people take offense. I know you're just trying to prove a point but consider how others might take it before you post it. Kevin is right, who needs it if it's gonna be like this.....that's exactly how the new comers will feel by reading how this sport will suck for them if they don't have as much money as you so why bother...

I'm sorry everyone this will be the last of this kind of talk on these threads, at least on my part. Some people just aren't considerate of others....I just want to get this race going so that we can enjoy another successful PT Classic race with the good people here at PT!


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't won't to get in the middle of the arguing here,but couldn't it just be like (example) 15 bucks and if one's bird makes it through training that an additional 15 bucks handling fee charge be added for the racing season. I have seen that in some one loft races if I'm not mistaken.
Kurps


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Amen*



g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Lol....you seem to have missed the point that Tom basically donated his time and money to handle the last race for the good people here at PT. I don't think anyone really had any problems before you started with calling people cheap. It's whenever you throw your money and high dollar birds around like you run things is when people take offense. I know you're just trying to prove a point but consider how others might take it before you post it. Kevin is right, who needs it if it's gonna be like this.....that's exactly how the new comers will feel by reading how this sport will suck for them if they don't have as much money as you so why bother...
> 
> I'm sorry everyone this will be the last of this kind of talk on these threads, at least on my part. Some people just aren't considerate of others....I just want to get this race going so that we can enjoy another successful PT Classic race with the good people here at PT!


 Those are Golden words and I will do the same in anticipation of another PT Race. Flap on >Kevin


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

pattersonk2002 said:


> Those are Golden words and I will do the same in anticipation of another PT Race. Flap on >Kevin


Lol....Let's flap on!!:


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Warren,

Don't quit yet! What is the point of a fight when there is no champion defending his title. 

People will now try to compare their birds to yours and see how they stack up. 

And, yes, don't use the word "cheap." It is a degrading words to some and become a sour/offensive words. When you are rich and use the word "cheap" to poor people, they will get offended right away. A "low" fee is better than "cheap" fee. One is accounting, the other is political. I suppose that word "cheap" is now one of those politically incorrect words.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Ted P said:


> I'm new and saw nothing offensive in Warren's posts. I really enjoyed following this PT
> race, and after building a loft,buying birds,feeding,medicating,training,racing and trying
> to do everything I could do to compete with the big boys. I have found out I couldn't
> do it on the cheap and compete with these people. But you all know this. If you can't
> ...




Thank you. I did not intend to offend anyone. Perhaps "Frugal" would have been more politcally correct. I did suggest, if many are too, let us say "frugal", to pay $25 to cover the cost of an entry fee, then they most likely would not bid much for the top winning pigeons. Which was the subject of this thread, if the winning birds should be auctioned off. As some events have placed the winning birds up for auction in order to help offset the cost of running the event. What the poll was asking, was how the proceeds should be divided if there were to be an auction. What might be an interesting question, is after all the debate about how the winning bids might be divided, is what would happen if there are no bids to divide ?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

There could always be the "BUY BACK YOUR BIRD OPTION".
Kurps


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't think a buy back would work, I plan on sending birds but if they get lost there would be nothing to buy back. Also if they make a poor showing I wouldn't want to buy them back. I think a small fee of $25 or $50 to train and race the birds would be ecceptable. JMO
Dave


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Well....I just might decide to not enter the next event if Warren doesn't enter it. Afterall, he was the only reason I entered. Because he is "the man" and I wanted my chance at defeating "the man". But alas. He is still "the man". Besides, being the defending champion kind of implies that you are a defender, and not retired from the sport or event. Doesn't it.

Unless of course, you Warren feel like you just squeaked out the championship and know how lucky you got and don't want to chance it again. But then again. Realistically, it would not be possible for you to win it each and every time, so probably a good move to "retire" from this event. Retire on top and don't take the chance that one of us amateurs might get lucky.

Seriously Warren. Why are you such a lightning rod on this forum? Is it like that in your club and combine? Is it because you are "the man"? Or just your confidence, demeanor and bravado (even if all earned)? Maybe you just come across on the net differently than you do in person (god, I hope so).


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2010)

I personally think the handler should be covered for feed and meds at least myself , why leave them hanging when its you that wants to see what your birds are capable of in the race circuit if you dont want to be in it yourself


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I would just like to say, I am in for next year. I think who ever handles this race needs to at least be covered for the cost he/she encures.

I also think Warren owes us all a chance to take the PT race crown away from him. Even if it is not one of my birds, I would be very happy to see one of ( insert your name here ) birds take that honor.

I am not set up for it now but if we keep this race going I would like to have the honor of handling this race in a few years.

Ace


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*PT Race*

Unless of course, you Warren feel like you just squeaked out the championship and know how lucky you got and don't want to chance it again. But then again. Realistically, it would not be possible for you to win it each and every time, so probably a good move to "retire" from this event. Retire on top and don't take the chance that one of us amateurs might get lucky.

I like this very much, It was a good race and like I said he actually got beat. I am still not sure why Toms birds where not allowed. I am thinking next year I am going to paint my birds silver and blame it on my wife when I loose. I truly believe that he knows how lucky he was and that next year that GLORY will be gone. I am sure I am not the only one that will send there best. You see with me it is not about winning money, NOW it is a major matter of pride in my birds and if I can beat a SMITTY I am the man, I will rent me a limo, NO two limo's one for the bird and fill it with hens and saffower and we will ride the town asking for mustard seeds. >Kevin


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## JRNY (Nov 17, 2009)

I didnt race last year. But thinking about it for 2011. I think send a check or money order for $20 along with your birds. To help with expense. No auction. But you will have 7 days to get your bird back . Just pay for the shipping because he will have boxes. If you dont want to get your bird back let him do whatever he wants with it.

I think bragging rights are great. People will always talk about the winning bird not the money.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I didn`t enter last years race...But I would like to for 2011....I am only giving a little suggestion for 2011....If Tom B. the handler of the birds continues as such,I would ask him these questions...
#1....How many birds can you take in from the members here ??
#2....How much money do you think you will need to feed & medicate the birds ??

Then once I have Tom`s answers to the above,you let the members who are sending birds in for the Classic know how many birds they can send,and how much is needed to help Tom take care of the birds....

Lets do a litte example now on how it would work for the 2011 Classic....
Tom said he can take in up to 50 birds...And Tom said he would need $300 for feed & meds !!
So now we know that it would be $300 divided by 50 which would be $6 per bird...

If 25 members were signed up to enter the race,then each member could only send 2 birds,at a cost of $12 to be paid to Tom....

I don`t think the above is the perfect answer to everyone`s questions,about this event,but I think it is best to keep the race simple...You can add a couple of dollars to the entry amount for the Trophy for the winner...Ofcourse,Tom B. is allowed to enter his 2 birds,which he will desnigate by giving the band #`s to ever is keeping record of such...

Lets say Tom`s club/combine has a NO LIMIT on shipping birds to the races..He can send his birds,and our birds to a race..Then there would be a ONE LOFT race so to speak to his loft,and you could see how they did...A couple of short races like that,then the birds are only trained,untill the Classic Race,which would be a 200 or 250 mile race....

The more birds that make the Classic race the better....We don`t want to lose the birds in a race which has no meaning for us....This should be a FUN race for bragging rights ONLY...If people need to race for big money,there are many races available for then to send birds to...And ofcourse,we allways wish those who do the best of luck...But for our Classic Race,keep the $$ amount affordable,so all can enter and have a good time.....Alamo


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I am in for next year also. Whoever hosts this race should try to calculate the total costs for feed, training, etc., and figure what the fee for each bird should be. The host should definitely not be out any of his or her own money, and maybe even pad it to help them out for their time.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> I personally think the handler should be covered for feed and meds at least myself , why leave them hanging when its you that wants to see what your birds are capable of in the race circuit if you dont want to be in it yourself


I know I'm gonna come off as cheap again but oh well I really don't care how ppl think of me I was arguing for other ppl who I know can't afford all that much to send a bird to this race. But maybe Tom should get somthing to help him out but it shouldn't be all that much as he has stated he will not be breeding his own birds and will only be flying PT birds. Now take into account how much time and money he'll be saving by not having to feed/medicate breeders all year and all the time he'll be saving by not having to worry about breeders. It's alot of work throughout the year breeding a team of birds. Ppl act like it's all about the training for the race but to me a big part is the preperation of the breeding pairs b4 breeding season and the care taken in the time the young birds are being raised by thier parents. Ppl make it seam like your only breeding the bird but alot goes into that part of the equation. Plus if he was racing his own birds he's have to pay for everything and in a way he's treating these birds as his own flying them as his team. If it works the way everybody is saying if I ask sombody to give me a bird or two to try out for them I should ask for $25-$50 to cover my expenses. Just doesn't sound right to me.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Alamo said:


> I didn`t enter last years race...But I would like to for 2011....I am only giving a little suggestion for 2011....If Tom B. the handler of the birds continues as such,I would ask him these questions...
> #1....How many birds can you take in from the members here ??
> #2....How much money do you think you will need to feed & medicate the birds ??
> 
> ...


I would agree if there was to be any fee thats the way it should be figured out.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I think you guys who are trying to cheap out here need to rethink this. If we have 25 people send two birds each to this race that is 50 birds. Have you 
cared for, fed, medicated, scraped after, basketed and trained 50 birds?

$15.00 per bird is only $750.00, $20.00 each = $1000.00. Taking care of and training a team like that is a lot of work not just food, water and meds.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Seems to me that everyone is not digesting the statements form Flapdoodle in their entirety.

He is not going to raise birds of his own for competition in his club (except for his own entries in the PT competition, presumably). Thus, he is basically stating that his expenses for the pigeon racing he does, would be the same as if he WAS raising and training his own birds and not handling our birds. Additionally, he is not wintering birds of our (nor his own young birds) and is not having to do the "breeding thing" If I have that wrong Flapdoodle, please correct me.

I donated the trophy for this event and will do so again and again. That is another expense consideration that could be cut out of the costs associated for everyone here.

But instead of many of us here, debating and arguing back and forth (and creating the possibility that this event will stop due to infighting), why doesnt Flapdoodle just tell us his thoughts about fees and finances and such, and we can work something out for his needs.

It's like calling the theater and asking what time the movie starts AND how much a ticket cost. Just tell us Flapdoodle what your thoughts are, instead of asking for imput. You started the inagural event with fairly strict rules and warnings about how you were going to do things your way and not how everyone else wanted them to be. So, tell us how you envision the next event operating. If anyone knows what it takes to conduct it well and fairly, it's you. That way, we can all decide if we want to go to this "movie".


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Seems to me that everyone is not digesting the statements form Flapdoodle in their entirety.
> 
> He is not going to raise birds of his own for competition in his club (except for his own entries in the PT competition, presumably). Thus, he is basically stating that his expenses for the pigeon racing he does, would be the same as if he WAS raising and training his own birds and not handling our birds. Additionally, he is not wintering birds of our (nor his own young birds) and is not having to do the "breeding thing" If I have that wrong Flapdoodle, please correct me.
> 
> ...


Well said! We need Daddy Flap to chime in and give his take on this next race to clear things up with the fees if there is going to be one. I'm sending birds for sure and I'm donating a portrait of the winning bird to the winner.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I say a good starting point would be $50 for a two bird entry. If 20 people sent in $50, you'd have $1000 towards expenses. That's more than enough to help offset cost. Even if the handler got $500 from the entries, it'd be better than nothing. 

Remember that this is a hobby, such as cycling, fishing, boating, and others, where the persons undertaking it will have to spend a lot of money to get what enjoyment these activities provide. You pay for things you like to do, and, if your friends come along and chip in a litttle for gas, you'd all have a good time. You don't expect your friends to help fix the boat, but, you would take gas money.

The way I look at it is,

Cost to race in a club: $250 
Cost of feed: $500 (20 sacks of 50lbs at $25 per sack gives you 1000 pounds for $500) 

This comes out to $750. This amount divided by 20 entries is $37.50 per entry. 

The cost of medications, gas, time, and any extra's is on the handler, as it is him who owns the boat and he get's to enjoy it a whole lot more, and, it's his pleasure to invite his friends for the ride.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Well....I just might decide to not enter the next event if Warren doesn't enter it. Afterall, he was the only reason I entered. Because he is "the man" and I wanted my chance at defeating "the man". But alas. He is still "the man". Besides, being the defending champion kind of implies that you are a defender, and not retired from the sport or event. Doesn't it.
> 
> Unless of course, you Warren feel like you just squeaked out the championship and know how lucky you got and don't want to chance it again. But then again. Realistically, it would not be possible for you to win it each and every time, so probably a good move to "retire" from this event. Retire on top and don't take the chance that one of us amateurs might get lucky.
> 
> Seriously Warren. * Why are you such a lightning rod on this forum? Is it like that in your club and combine? Is it because you are "the man"? Or just your confidence, demeanor and bravado (even if all earned)? Maybe you just come across on the net differently than you do in person (god, I hope so)*.


 I don't really know, I have been thinking about this since you posted it. I do hold elective office on both the club and combine level. So, I am part of the 5% that do 95% of the work, which makes pigeon racing possible. So, I guess once in awhile, I do try to challenge some of those who are among the 95% . 

The challenge with the Internet, is that people who do not use their real names, will feel free to say things that they would not say in their club or combine meetings. I know from personal experience in my club and combine, and in other situations in life, that when you step forward and state the truth, without much consideration for political correctness or sugar coating, those with little actual skin in the game, will feel free to be critical in their judgements. It's all part of the price one must be willing to pay, in order to advance the cause. In my combine, most of my critics are what you might call arm chair critics. They rarely attend the meetings, never serve on committees, or do any of the actual work. 

You are one of those who actually roll up their sleeves, and do the work. I appreciate your contributions on this forum, and what you did for this years Pigeon Talk Classic. I value your thoughts and opinions, and I valued your question.


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