# Chronic Form - Paratyphoid - HELP!



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Well, Cocoa is back inside. This is the 3rd fall in a row that I have had to bring him in. Now I'm convinced he has "chronic" paratyphoid.
Symptoms - limps off and on all year
When cold weather sets in - puffs up, rapid weight loss (but still eats).
He's fading quickly! (no canker and he's been wormed)
I*'ve had him on clavamox for the past 2 weeks. *Should I change to Baytril?*
He's only interested in eating wheat bread on his own now. (when I put his food in, he just stands and looks at it. If I crumble some wheat bread, he runs over and gobble's it down  but won't touch his seed) I'm going to have to tube feed him to get some nourishment into him.
So my MAIN question is - Would it be beneficial to change him over to Baytril and can I do it right away?
Any and all additional help would be appreciated!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

why is he on antibios?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> why is he on antibios?


Because that's what brought him thru the last 2 episodes in the previous years.
Antibiotics, heat and supportive care.
This is his 3rd year of this.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about this.

Has this been diagnosed? 
If so then I'm sure Baytril would be the recommendation.

The only thing is if the bird has been on so many medications he just may need to have his immune system brought back in check also.

What supportive measures have you been using?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Baytril is a recommended treatment for Paratyphoid. I would use Clavamox (Synulox here) for wounds, especially from a predator.

Not aware of any reason why you cannot switch over to Baytril.

Does he have the swellings on the joints often associated with Paratyphoid? Has he actually been diagnosed with Paratyphoid in the past?

John


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes, He was diagnosed 2 years ago (the first time he had symptoms) in the fall.
Returned last fall, same symptoms. Brought inside, treated with 2 different antibiotics, on heat and supplemental feedings. Pulled thru again but had to stay inside for the winter. Was fine and put back out this summer. Great all summer. As soon as cold weather came - same symptoms returned. So I brought inside again with heat and started clavamox (2 weeks ago).
Limps and 1 leg joint swells *off and on - year round* 
He was not on any antibiotics all spring or summer. 
ACV in water 2 times a week. He IS eating some food, but mostly wants wheat bread. Haven't had to tube feed yet. But I think maybe soon just to give him a boost.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Ok what I usually do is taking care of two aspects of the paratyphoid:
*Pain in joints and most probably in GI tract* – that requires separate treatment and in this case Arnica for joints swelling and chamomile tea for GI pain calming will work fine.
*Bacterial infection* – salmonella that I would treat with Chloramphenicol (Chevita) rather than Baytril or Amoxicilin. So far I had much better results with it than any other antibiotic.
Supportive care is a must if bird is not eating enough and again, baby formula with drop of honey is my choice.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

plamenh said:


> Ok what I usually do is taking care of two aspects of the paratyphoid:
> *Pain in joints and most probably in GI tract* – that requires separate treatment and in this case Arnica for joints swelling and chamomile tea for GI pain calming will work fine.
> *Bacterial infection* – salmonella that I would treat with Chloramphenicol (Chevita) rather than Baytril or Amoxicilin. So far I had much better results with it than any other antibiotic.
> Supportive care is a must if bird is not eating enough and again, baby formula with drop of honey is my choice.


I don't have any chloamphenicol on hand (and if memory serves me well, I had a hard time finding that last year, but I do have baytril.
I just found my medical notes for last year.
Cocoa was started on Baytril. Then a month later put on doxycycline.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

is antibios given in all chronic cases just in case? I know pmv is a virus, when they are having an episode do they always have secondary issues?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> is antibios given in all chronic cases just in case? I know pmv is a virus, when they are having an episode do they always have secondary issues?


Good question - I wish I had a really good avian vet that could answer that 
In previous episodes my vet started on antibiotics, and it brought him around.
But I guess the supportive care could have had a hand in it too
That's why I'm asking - really not sure, but I have to do something.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

spirit wings said:


> is antibios given in all chronic cases just in case? I know pmv is a virus, when they are having an episode do they always have secondary issues? [/B]


When the birds are having an "episode" it is usually when they are stressed. Those episodes deplete their B vitamins and calcium and much more, which leaves them wide open to secondary issues, including watery poop as their gut flora also becomes off as it depleted by stress, so it is important for them to get some extra nutrtrition in the way of calcium with D3 ( if they don't get any sun) and B complex also important for issues involving the nervous system.

When not on antibiotics I would give alfalfa tab, cod liver oil, in addition to a good source of B vitamins, such as brewers yeast, followed with probiotics. If the stomach isn't upset i would give a garlic cap each day, along with Neem oil. You have to consider also that antibiotics deplete gut flora as well as keep other nutrients from assimilation.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I don't have best experience with Baytril so I'm the last person who will recommend it. 
I would use LINCO-SPECTIN if possible it is better then other ones and works on gram + and - bacteria.
Also 2,5% lactose solution instead of water reduces colonization of salmonella bacteria.

P.S. If nothing else then go as you did last year and let's hope that works again.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> is antibios given in all chronic cases just in case? I know pmv is a virus, when they are having an episode do they always have secondary issues?


Just to confirm, we are talking PARATYPH (Salmonella) not PMV (Paramixovirus) Salmonella=bacteria reacts on antibiotic, PMV=virus reacts on immuno-stimulants.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

plamenh said:


> Just to confirm, we are talking PARATYPH (Salmonella) not PMV (Paramixovirus) Salmonella=bacteria reacts on antibiotic, PMV=virus reacts on immuno-stimulants.


ohhhh, I did get them mixed up. 
Salmonella can cause Balance disorders as well as pmv.

hope he pulls through for you, I know you must be worried about him.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> ohhhh, I did get them mixed up.
> Salmonella can cause Balance disorders as well as pmv.
> 
> hope he pulls through for you, I know you must be worried about him.


LOL Yes, salmonella - I knew that lol Treat with antibiotics -- I think I was brain dead this morning. I get that way when I'm tired of thinking


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Well, He's all set up in his winter cage with his heating pad, watching t.v.
So I guess I'll follow last years regimen and hope he pulls thru it, again!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Waynette...it could be something different this time and would be worth while to have him re-diagnosed.
Have you ever treated your birds for coccidia?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Waynette...it could be something different this time and would be worth while to have him re-diagnosed.
> Have you ever treated your birds for coccidia?


When I had the culture and sensitivity done the last 2 times it came back salmonella. Just to be sure, I'm going to take another sample to work with me tomorrow.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> When I had the culture and sensitivity done the last 2 times it came back salmonella. Just to be sure, I'm going to take another sample to work with me tomorrow.



I think that's a good idea...just in case.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Just to add a note,since there seems to be different meds being advised and may be confusing. Paratyphoid should be treated for a minimum of 21 days and as long as 45 days in severe cases. Doxycycline 20% "vet n pigeon experts suggestion" is a recommended drug as is Amoxicillan "Frequently recommended by vets". Sulmet and Albon 12.5% are also recommended drugs, Albon stays in birds system for 12 hours at a time.Drugs should be alternated so an immunity is not built up against 1 drug (different breakouts that is ). The bird is a carrier of the disease if it keeps coming down with the disease,which is correct as stated can be brought on by stress. The loft should be cleaned and disinfected,as not to spread the disease.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

M Kurps said:


> Just to add a note,since there seems to be different meds being advised and may be confusing. Paratyphoid should be treated for a minimum of 21 days and as long as 45 days in severe cases. Doxycycline 20% "vet n pigeon experts suggestion" is a recommended drug as is Amoxicillan "Frequently recommended by vets". Sulmet and Albon 12.5% are also recommended drugs, Albon stays in birds system for 12 hours at a time.Drugs should be alternated so an immunity is not built up against 1 drug (different breakouts that is ). The bird is a carrier of the disease if it keeps coming down with the disease,which is correct as stated can be brought on by stress. The loft should be cleaned and disinfected,as not to spread the disease.


http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/digestivetract-salmonellosis.php


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

*Update - questionable*

I'm really worried about Cocoa. He just stands there, puffed up with tail dropped. Alert sometimes, groggy others. Culture came back (partial) salmonella, waiting for sensitivity. Still giving baytril, and was told to add metronidizole (loose stool).
He's "picking" at food (trying), but not really eating it. I've been tube feeding him twice a day - 24 mls each feeding. 
He's also getting metacam for his lameness in one leg.
Has a heating pad on low, 24 hours. Has a heat lamp during the day - he prefers to stand under that. He just stands and looks around or sleeps.
I feel like I should be doing more, but don't know what. I do not have a good avian vet to confide in.
What else can I do? It's killing me to see him like this


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you add nystatin to the mix?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Can you add nystatin to the mix?


I don't have that. Is there something equivalent?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can feed some yogurt with active cultures. Do you have nystatin at the clinic? It's such a good thing to have on hand.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> You can feed some yogurt with active cultures. Do you have nystatin at the clinic? It's such a good thing to have on hand.


No, were not an avian clinic. That's why I asked if there was an equivalent. I will order some from Foy's (when I get paid), but I feel like I need to do more for him. He looks so miserable and pathetic - I can't stand it!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Foy's doesn't have it. It is a human drug. Maybe your vet can call in a prescription?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Foy's doesn't have it. It is a human drug. Maybe your vet can call in a prescription?


Oh, OK. I'll check that out.
He seems to have perked up (a little) since starting metronidizole.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The nystatin is still a good idea.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

Charis said:


> The nystatin is still a good idea.


nystatin is only a prescription away , plus if you can get it thru work it sure would make it cheaper


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Don't give the bird yogurt, yogurt is a probiotic and probiotics shouldn't be given the same time as antibiotic.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

M Kurps said:


> Don't give the bird yogurt, yogurt is a probiotic and probiotics shouldn't be given the same time as antibiotic.


That's what I thought, so I'm holding off on that. 
I also took away his acv water. I'm keeping a pinch of salt and sugar in his water.
What is Nystaten used for?


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## starlinglover95 (May 6, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> *I've had him on clavamox for the past 2 weeks. *Should I change to Baytril?*


Baytril is probably best. And if you keep some on hand all the time if one of them get attacked by like a dog, cat, or hawk that will do really well. I haven't really used Baytril that often (I had it once last year to take care of an injured Starling, and we got a baby cardinal that had been "chewed by gracie's cat" and no vets were open so I used it on him too)


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't know about Nystaten. Your doing good,I have never tried salt and sugar, I would suggest vitamins. However if the bird is responding well to your treatment keep it up.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

starlinglover95 said:


> Baytril is probably best. And if you keep some on hand all the time if one of them get attacked by like a dog, cat, or hawk that will do really well. I haven't really used Baytril that often (I had it once last year to take care of an injured Starling, and we got a baby cardinal that had been "chewed by gracie's cat" and no vets were open so I used it on him too)


He's been on Baytril for a week now, but his health has declined this past week. Metronidizole was added yesterday and I've already noticed a "slight" improvement. I really don't think Baytril is doing anything for him, but I am going to keep him on it for the duration in case this bacteria is just being stubborn.
I *do* think the metro is doing something though.......I'm sitting next to him watching him eat (his whole wheat bread) and he just walked over to the other side and got a huge drink of water! This is the first time I've seen him take a drink ALL WEEK!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I would put this bird thru a good detox once he is done with all the meds, especially of the liver, you can do this by sprinkling a little milk thistle freshly crushed over the seed daily, and Reishi can also be given. 

Do this for several months. Make sure to also give the bird the usual probiotics then too.

I would find a good holistic avian vet or rehabber for help if possible.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

M Kurps said:


> I don't know about Nystaten. Your doing good,I have never tried salt and sugar, I would suggest vitamins. However if the bird is responding well to your treatment keep it up.


I know your not suppose to use probiotics while on antibiotics, but can you give vitamins while on antibiotics? I don't typically give my birds "vitamins".
This is SOOO frustrating--that I work for a vet, but yet I'm on my own. The hospital I work at does not do avian. I also have access to VIN (veterinary info network) and that isn't even any help - its 500 vets with 500 contradictions!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> I would put this bird thru a good detox once he is done with all the meds, especially of the liver, you can do this by sprinkling a little milk thistle freshly crushed over the seed daily, and Reishi can also be given.
> 
> Do this for several months. Make sure to also give the bird the usual probiotics then too.
> 
> I would find a good holistic avian vet or rehabber for help if possible.


If we get that far, I will do that.
I'm familiar with milk thistle, but not with Reishi - can I find that at the health food store?
As far as a good holistic vet or rehabber - does not exist in my area. Believe me! I have tried to find one.
I have to rely on the help I receive here on PT.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nystatin is an anti fungal, it is good to give as some of these can get large in numbers when a abirds is down and on antibios for a long period. your doing your best. it is hard when you got to try to figure things out yourself.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> I know your not suppose to use probiotics while on antibiotics, but can you give vitamins while on antibiotics? I don't typically give my birds "vitamins".
> This is SOOO frustrating--that I work for a vet, but yet I'm on my own. The hospital I work at does not do avian. I also have access to VIN (veterinary info network) and that isn't even any help - its 500 vets with 500 contradictions!


 I would use an electrolyte with vitamins like Foy's item #622 $5.25 for 8 oz. bag. But you may want to get a second or third opinion on using with antibiotic. Call the Vet and ask.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Msfreebird try www.nepigeonsupplies.com they are located in Ct. may be better for you since you are in Maine.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Msfreebird said:


> If we get that far, I will do that.
> I'm familiar with milk thistle, but not with Reishi - can I find that at the health food store?


Here is the one I use, you can twist open the cap and put a little on the seed, but I haven't tried it that way. You may find something comparable in a health food store, but this one is the best. This one was recommended to me by a certified nutritionist/biologist.

http://www.healthbeyondhype.com/reishi-complex-90-vcaps-p-137.html?gclid=COObqMvnip4CFSEFswodJBU0qA


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

If you work for the vet then this may be helpful:
*Chloramphenicol (Chloromycetin®)*
Chloramphenicol is an antibiotic used in dogs and cats. Chloramphenicol inhibits bacteria by suppressing growth. It is effective against a broad range of bacteria and also may be effective against some one-celled pathogenic organisms (protozoa).

Chloramphenicol is a prescription drug and *can only be obtained from a veterinarian *or by prescription from a veterinarian


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

plamenh said:


> If you work for the vet then this may be helpful:
> *Chloramphenicol (Chloromycetin®)*
> Chloramphenicol is an antibiotic used in dogs and cats. Chloramphenicol inhibits bacteria by suppressing growth. It is effective against a broad range of bacteria and also may be effective against some one-celled pathogenic organisms (protozoa).
> 
> Chloramphenicol is a prescription drug and *can only be obtained from a veterinarian *or by prescription from a veterinarian


Thank you plamenh, when you first mentioned this drug I did check into getting it but was told that it was an outdated drug and that there were far more effective drugs available now and I kept getting directed to Baytril 
I was also told that it was a difficult drug to find now for that reason. So I really am checking out all advise that is given to me, but I run into a brick wall at this end


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Here is the one I use, you can twist open the cap and put a little on the seed, but I haven't tried it that way. You may find something comparable in a health food store, but this one is the best. This one was recommended to me by a certified nutritionist/biologist.
> 
> http://www.healthbeyondhype.com/reishi-complex-90-vcaps-p-137.html?gclid=COObqMvnip4CFSEFswodJBU0qA


Thank you, I'll get right on that. I have 2 huge herb and health food stores within 1 mile, if they don't have it, I'll order some.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

*Sad day - Cocoa Puff didn't make it*

He started going down hill last night. After I fed him he started with the open mouth breathing and was more "hunched up". He was still mentally alert but I could tell he was in pain. No change this morning, but also when he tried to poop this morning - nothing.
I took him over to our closest avian vet to have him checked. 
His abdomen was extremely bloated, she said either enlarged liver or tumor, and also heart murmur. She said the breathing trouble (which just started last night) was caused by the enlarged abdomen pushing up on the lungs.
I couldn't let him suffer anymore.
Thank you for all the advise that I received. I know its hard to see, but that's Cocoa in my signature picture - ash red on the far left.
Fly Free Cocoa Puff


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ah, Im sorry, sounds like it was his time.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so so sorry. 

Bless you for doing everything you could for him.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry for your lose Msfreebird.


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