# New King



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

This king has extremely watery poop. Very small bits of green come out. Ill post pictures later. I just went though canker with one of my other birds who was doing the same thing so I am treating this bird with Rinidazole. His throat is clear, but im thinking internal blockage. the wormer is in the mail to treat him with as well, Although I am starting to think that it might be something else. He seems very unbalanced. At first I thought his leg might have been injured when he crashed landed on the gentleman's porch who I got him from, cus he stumbles to the right often. He would fall over when standing on one leg to scratch his head, But I am noticing him tilting his head oddly now. It's not violent or strained like pmv or anything. And it seems to happen mostly when I first let him out of the crate to stretch his wings. It's like he gets dizzy just walking. I know kings are built for meat and are clumsy birds, but it seems more than that. I believe he is young as well. He "peeps" when he wing slaps me which is another odd thing. Could he have just been oddly confined in the meat market? 
Any input appreciated?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

He's still a squeaker. The lack of balance concerns me. He probably has more than one thing going on. I would start by treating him for canker, coccidiosis and worms. I would also put him on antibiotics as he may be suffering from salmonella, e-coli or more. Your best bet would be to have him seen by a vet for a fecal but if you can't do that, try a good 3-in-1 such as Multi-Mix plus Enroflaxan (generic Baytril). The last I checked Siegel's still carried it. And I'm sure you already know this, but definitely keep him isolated from your other pigeons. Good luck.

-Cathy


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

All signs are shooting at PMV now unfortunately. I found him with his neck twisted up a little while ago. Explains the watery poop and the off balance. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12250.html 

this link says that Supportive care is usually sufficient. and The disease runs its course in about 6 weeks. 
So basically just use the vitamins, probiotics, and electrolytes, to help the little guy out till then?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I would suggest doing a combo of Ciproflaxin (aka Baytril) and Metronidazole (aka FishZole), nevertheless. They can be administered in tandem with no negative drug interactions.

Could be PMV or could be an infection which causes neurological PMV-type symptoms. If the latter, it will clear up sooner than PMV....about 2 weeks or so.

Is she eating on her own ? May come a time where you need to veggie-pop handfeed because the neurological symptoms make it impossible for the pigeon to feed herself/himself.

In these instances, yes...supportive care is of utmost importance. Also try to create a 'doughnut bed' if her condition worsens. Very often I would find a patient showing such symptoms rolled over in a contorted position when I went to check on them (once the condition bottomed out and was at its worse).

I would urge you to do the 2 antibiotics, though. It couldn't hurt and may end up being the ticket....

In which case, no point in probiotics. Do the quiet place w/heat, plus meds, food, and water (good thing about veggie popping is that it provides hydration); and just try to check in on him/her often to make sure she didn't get herself into an odd position....

You could also worm (Ivermectin) and treat for coccidia (Clazuril-type med) along the way...again, it covers some bases & couldn't hurt...and both are single-dose meds, repeated in 10 days.

Keep us posted. Good luck.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry this one is doing so poorly, Gimpie, but bless you for going and getting the bird!

I would do as Jaye suggested with the two antibiotics. The bird may need a wormer also as BirdMom posted,but for right now, I'd be doing the antibiotics.

Please keep us posted.

Terry


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

I have never had to deal with this type of thing before. Its heart breaking and horrifying to see him all contorted. 
He is still eating on his own. I was checking out some youtube videos about pmv and the spasm head tilting back type he does not do. His head always goes down around and under him sometimes rolling him over 
With his watery poop his cage gets very messy with in minutes after cleaning and he is getting covered in it during his fits. Is there any other option? I fear he is going to get an eye infection. I want to clean him off but when he sees me he freaks out even more and goes in to continuous fits. I feel bad sending him into it as much as I have to to clean his cage. 
I have the metronidazole, but is there a web site I can get baytril off of? I can't seem to find it on Jedds. either name being searched. Is there a generic form?


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

http://www.google.com/products?hl=e...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CDwQrQQwAg

Could i crush up the right amount of one of these tablets and use it?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Siegel Pigeon still carries Enroflaxan, a generic for Baytril: http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Jaye's advice was solid. Neck torsion can be caused by PMV but it can also sometimes be caused by salmonellosis, hence recommending antibiotics. Even if it is PMV it's a good idea to prevent or cure secondary infections. I don't have personal experience with either disease so I'll leave that to people who do. 

Treating for canker is a must too because it's almost always present and is opportunistic. It can become fatal in a bird that is down with another illness. 

I'm sorry you're having such a time with this poor pigeon. Hang in there!


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

The enroflan is ordered and should be here tomorrow. He is on metriniazole now. 
I think he is to the point of needing to be fed. his head is always down now. If I quietly pick him up and twist his body so his head is level he eats and drinks a bit but I don't think it is enough. He is losing weight quick. If I were to feed him exact formula how would I go about it the best way. With his head always twisted I feel he will choke. Do I need to tube crop feed him? ...although with the twisting head that scares me as well. 
Jaye you said I may need to veggie-pop handfeed when it came to his time. Im not sure what that is exactly is you could elaborate please. 
Much appreciated everyone 
please send prayers for this sweet squeaker


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat.
You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding[ depending on the size of the bird] and every time the crop empties. 

Hope this helps.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Yes, that helped a lot thank you. 
Im having to wrap him up and flip him over so his head is right side up


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I know it's difficult with the head twisting like that, but you will get better at it as time goes on. And it won't be forever. Good luck with this poor baby. Please keep us posted on how things are going.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just spoke with Gimpie .. she is coping well with this bird. I apologized for sending such a sick one her way, but there was nothing else to do. Bless you Gimpie and call me if you think I could help in some way.

Terry


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Hey guys,
The Enroflaxan just got here..stupid expensive overnight shipping for no reason!
anyways the bottle says: one tablet per pigeon 1 time....
I just give the bird 1 pill once? that's it? Is this right?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No. The amount and for how long you give it would depend on what you are treating for. I have gotten meds with things like that on them before, and I just ignore it. Not sure what the dosing would be, but I'm sure someone who knows will be along.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GimpieLover, the time generally recommended to not only treat, but to clear salmonella from a bird is 10 days, but I generally recommend treating a full two weeks to be on the safe side. I know Kings weigh more than most birds, do you have a weight for this guy and what is the strength of the Enrofloxacin you ordered?

Karyn


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

I don't have a weight for the bird. Ill try to get him weighed somehow. And the tablets are 7.5 mg.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

The bird is 12 1/2 oz


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GimpieLover, are sure of the weight, as 12.5oz is about 355gm, which seems a bit light for a King, from my understanding. Anyway, start him out on one pill a day for the next 14 days. If the weight was some how out we can adjust.

Here's how to "pop" the pill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Yes unfortunately that weight is correct. Is is very tiny and young and very underweight. I am doing as many hand feedings a day as I can but his weight doesn't seem to be coming back. Is there something more fattening I can feed him besides peas and corn? 
My wormer is still somewhere in the mail so that could be an issue as well.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GimpieLover, if you get some Kaytee hand feeding formula and mix a few tablespoons of it with a 1/2 teaspoon of olive oil and the slowly add a bit of water at a time until it is to a pie-dough consistency, you can then roll very small pieces of this into small balls the size of the peas you have been feeding and "pop" them like in the video clip. There will be much more nutrition and calories in these, just make sure he gets enough tepid water to break down the balls to move them through his crop, this is a way to get more calories into him, and is a way around tube feeding for people who are nervous about doing this. Feed about 15-20 balls at a time, letting his crop empty, as often as often as he can take feedings to get some weight back on him.

Karyn


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Wow, That worked wonderfully. Very smart!
Thank you! He seemed to really enjoy it to. He acts a lot younger than he looks. Peeping and acting like he wants to still be fed. He is fully feathered though. 
I really hope this guy pulls through. I'm getting quite attached.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Couldn't it be dangerous to feed the formula that way? When mixing it regularly, you let it sit a minute, and it gets thicker. Sometimes you need to add more water, or it can harden like a lump of cement in the crop. By not mixing it the way it is meant to be mixed, and not using enough water, I would think there could be a possibility of it either swelling too much in the crop, after the bird has added water to the crop, or if not enough water, that it could just sit there like little balls of cement, and not go through. Doesn't sound safe to me.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Eesh, ok back to peas and corn till more info gathered on these exact balls


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jay3, and GimpieLover, I can assure you I would not recommend something has has not been used before with success. Jay3, do me a favor, I am sure you have Kaytee around, why don't you mix some up as I laid out and add 10 balls (make sure they are truly pea sized) to 5cc of tepid water in an espresso cup or shot glass and see what you get. Come back in 5-10 minutes and see if the balls have not broken apart and you have a nice mixture that looks like, as it should, a regular Kaytee mix that is ready to be tubed. Then come back in a half an hour and again tell me how it looks, does it look like cement? GimpieLover, you have already done one round of balls, does it feel like they have moved through (just make sure you aren't mistaking balls for peas)? The oil part is important, as it helps prevent what Jay3 is worried about.

Karyn


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Hey guy!
I just wanted to thank you all and give you a quick update.
He is still having twisted neck symptoms but it is improving. Today is only day 5 of his medication so it's still early but good signs so far. 
He is gaining weight and his droppings are a lot healthier looking. We still have a long way to go here, but things are looking up.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so glad to hear that he is doing better. Thanks for the upate.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Glad to hear things are getting a little better, thanks for the update.

Karyn


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Glad to hear he's improving. Good job!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> GimpieLover, if you get some Kaytee hand feeding formula and mix a few tablespoons of it with a 1/2 teaspoon of olive oil and the slowly add a bit of water at a time until it is to a pie-dough consistency, you can then roll very small pieces of this into small balls the size of the peas you have been feeding and "pop" them like in the video clip. There will be much more nutrition and calories in these, just make sure he gets enough tepid water to break down the balls to move them through his crop, this is a way to get more calories into him, and is a way around tube feeding for people who are nervous about doing this. Feed about 15-20 balls at a time, letting his crop empty, as often as often as he can take feedings to get some weight back on him.
> 
> Karyn


I really do have to save this.. brilliant.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Well this guy has been on meds for 2 weeks now. He has improved but not enough to eat on his own. he went from being completely incapable of standing or picking his head up, to him now with his head up but does a lot of stargazing with his head back. Is there any hope for this guy to recover more than this or has his brain been permanently damaged? Im leaving town for a little while and don't have anyone who would hand feed a pigeon multiple times a day for me. I'm in a bit of a pickle with this one. I can't hand feed a bird for the rest of its life unfortunately. 
I'm really hoping he recovers drastically more in the next few weeks.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GimpieLover, no real experience, so to speak, dealing with helping a PMV bird, but here is a quote from Feefo (Cynthia, one of the most experienced people on the forum with PMV) from a thread she was offing some advice to a caregiver.



> It takes several weeks for the stargazing and other nervous symptoms to disappear.
> 
> Liquid calcium supplements can help.


If you do add in some calcium, please do it a few hours away from the Baytril, as it interferes with the way Baytril is absorbed.

Hope others can offer a bit more help, good luck with him,

Karyn


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Gimpie,

If we can find a way to get this pigeon to me, I will gladly take it. I'm very grateful to you for helping as you have. I have quite a few PMV survivors, so one more would not be a huge burden to me. Let me know.

Terry


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

That is very nice of your terry. If it comes to that its very appreciated. I have put off my trip for the little guy. No biggie. If there is a chance of him recovering I have no problem caring for him till he does. I just want to ask if there is a possibility of him never recovering.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

**confused**

This guy has seemed to give up even trying to eat on his own. He can put his head down no problem to get at my hand and will bury his beak in my hand trying to get fed squealing and honking at me like a peeping goose. Why won't he pick up seed? 
If i put seed in my hand he will put his face in the seed but wont attempt to eat it. He just wants to be hand fed. I leave seed in his cage he doesn't touch. He can drink. Why won't he eat! 
He still has the head shakes if he tried to focus on 1 thing. That doesn't seem to be getting any better. 
How do I get this guy to have any sort of normal happy life?
if he stays in this condition I believe it's best to euthanize him. He can't walk normally, he can't fly, eat on his own. It's no life to live. Does he have hope of getting better at this point?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It takes time. He should improve eventually. Maybe you should give the bird to Terry and let her try for a while. Be a shame to euthanize if he can get better with time. I understand how frustrating it must be, and time consuming.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Ill wait forever if he will get better. I have no problem with that. I just hate to see this be as good as it will get for him. It's very sad.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I understand how you are feeling, and I agree that if that was as good as it would be for him, then it just wouldn't be fair to keep him alive like that. But I don't think that is the case.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have you tried feeding him frozen peas and corn, defrosted and warmed up? It's much easier than feeding him seed, and he may be able to learn to pick them up faster than seed, as they are a good size, and nice and soft. Lots of pigeons seem to wean quicker on them than on seed. Then he can move on to seed when he is ready. I would try the peas and corn. 

What are you feeding him now?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Gimpie .. these can be so very frustrating. You HAVE too find a way to feed this bird or get it to eat. I'm still willing to take it. Call me.

Terry


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

oh, geeze, sorry to miss lead you guys. I have been hand feeding him.
I have been hand feeding him defrosted peas and corn along with exact balls with little seeds punched in it. multiple times daily. i have just recently been trying to encourage him to try to self feed on seed since his head is at a normal level ( not under neath him anymore) and I saw him drink water on his own no problem. I figured since he had enough coordination to get his head down and drink a few good gulps, I didn't understand why he wouldn't eat seed to.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Gimpielover, I will add my voice to the others, I think you have a way to go yet for this little guy, before making any final decisions. Try this, and this may take days to weeks, place a seed, try safflower seeds or sunflower hearts, into his mouth (their favorites), far enough back he has to swallow and can't spit it out, then peck, peck, peck at them with your crooked finger, like you are feeding as well and then place another in his mouth and so on. Hopefully he will get the idea, to peck, mouth and swallow on his own in time.

Thanks for trying so hard for him and good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You could try leaving some of the peas and corn with him, and see if he learns to pick them up. He would probably find it easier than picking up seed at this point. They're larger, yet soft and easily picked up. Leave some with him each day to pick at and he may just surprise you.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Hey guys....It has been a little over 2 months with this guy now...He has not improved. Still no sign he will be able to pick up seed and feed himself...I'm sadly losing hope. Is it time to put this poor bird out of his misery or my last thought...What if I try to put him with my other birds? Every time this bird sees me, he squawks at me flapping his wings like a baby...he is definitely full grown, but I am thinking he just got into the habit of me feeding him perhaps? I have tried encouraging him to pick up food, but he loses control and shakes his head and throws it every time still. (the very few times he tries) perhaps eating with my other birds will be the final push to have a normal life? 
2 months later, he wont still be contagious will he?
I just feel horrible about him spending his life in a crate. I don't feel its fair but I have worked so hard to keep him alive and healthy though all this, I would hate to give up before everything was tried at least a few times. =/


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, GimpieLover, I don't see how it could possibly hurt him to spend sometime in with your other birds, when he is no longer contagious (I would supervise these outings so they don't gang up on him though). My understanding of PPMV is that after 6 weeks they stop shedding the virus and can not infect other birds, and at 8 weeks you are well past that mark. 

However, since I don't deal with PPMV birds, I would wait until you get the all clear signal from some our our members who are more familiar with quarantine times and durations for virus shedding before you do this. When you do get the all clear signal, you never know, being with other birds may give him a good morale boost and push him to start to self-feed.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Any other advice guys?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hard to say, as he was never really diagnosed as having PMV. It is just being assumed that is what he has, when in reality, many other things can cause these same symptoms.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Gimpie,

If it doesn't work out with your other birds, then let's figure out how to get this one to me. 

Terry


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

ok, thanks terry. I'm trying my best


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

UPDATE:
This poor guy still does the typical pmv style neck spazzing and seed tossing....BUT He now has his own brand new large flat level hutch that is easy for him to move around in, placed next to my other birds. 
The past few weeks he has been attempting to eat on his own but 
I don't see him improving unfortunately. He seems very happy lounging outside soaking up the SoCal sun and fresh air though. So as long as he continues to seem happy, he has a forever home. Ill get pictures up soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sounds good. Too bad he still isn't eating on his own. The hutch sounds good. Love to see some pics.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

i Know, I'm out of ideas on how to help him. 
He seems happy following me around the yard though. I let him out daily when I take care of the other birds and water the plants, and he just trails along behind me. I couldn't give up on him just because he has trouble eating.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Youve maybe tried this already, so if so just ignore me, but have you tried putting his food in a deep dish, something like a small ramakin about 2inches deep?
That way when he pecks he will have more chance of actually getting some food in his beak and hopefully progress from there ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> Youve maybe tried this already, so if so just ignore me, but have you tried putting his food in a deep dish, something like a small ramakin about 2inches deep?
> That way when he pecks he will have more chance of actually getting some food in his beak and hopefully progress from there ?



Funny. I was just going to say that, when I saw what you had written.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Lol great minds think alike. 
and yea, he has a deep dish of seed all the time. Even if he gets a hold of some, he spasms and throws it across the room. Im sure he gets some down, but I still have to hand feed him daily to keep his weight up.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What do you feed him?


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