# Found a baby and don't know what to do



## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Hi all, so glad I found this site! This morning I was jogging with my dog and almost stepped on a baby pigeon. Actually, I didn't know it was a pigeon at first. The ants were already swarming and we have a lot of strays in our neighborhood, so I knew it wouldn't survive an hour on the sidewalk, so I brought it home. I had absolutely no idea what to do with him, so I took him to work and started giving him sugar water because I was told he'd be dehydrated. I basically just put a drop on his beak and let him drink it. He really can't be more than a couple days old. I went to PetSmart tonight and bought some of the baby bird formula, and have had him on a heating pad, but I'm still not confident I should be feeding him yet. I stopped giving him the sugar water. What should I do? 

Here's Piggie:


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I forgot to mention that this afternoon he had about four good-sized green poops, but now they're all white and almost milky. Also, his body temperature doesn't seem to be increasing.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi MrsM and welcome to Pigeon-Talk! Can you post that picture in a larger size, please? That way we can be sure if you have a pigeon or a dove.

Regardless of whether it is a pigeon or a dove, it does need to be fed a baby formula like Kaytee Exact. Is that what you got?

Where are you located? We may be able to lend a hand from a nearby member or rehabber.

Sorry to keep editing my post to you .. my first thought was that this is a baby Mourning Dove .. really could use a larger picture.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> I forgot to mention that this afternoon he had about four good-sized green poops, but now they're all white and almost milky. Also, his body temperature doesn't seem to be increasing.




Hi MrsM,


Looks like a couple-day-old Mourning Dove to me...but, could be a day-old Pigeon though the 'white' down would be a little unusual for a Pigeon.


Anyway, they do not make any of their own Body-Heat yet at this age, so...you have to keep him steadily around 103 degrees, and lightly Humid.

If he is 'panting' he is too hot...if he chills ( ie: is allowed to remain less than 103-ish for very long ) he can develop problems and become ill.




Where are you located?



Lastly, it is possible a Hawk had raided the Nest where this one came from, whether or not the sibling was carried off...so, if you can, go back and see if you can determine where it might be.


Doves often nest in the pockets of Palm Tree Trunks, as do Pigeons sometimes, and Hawks know this of course.

Pigeons Nest in various sorts of Ledges or pockets in high places, Doves, usually not so high ( unless in Palm Tree Trunk-pockets ).

Anyway, the ideal, would be if there is an intact Nest, and interested Parents missing him, would be if the Baby could be returned to them.

Also ideal, would be to give this Baby to a Dove or Pigeon pair ( according to whichever this turns out to be ! ), who's Babys are about the same age, and they would accept it and feed it and so on.


That works very well in fact...so allow us your location, and who knows, maybe a member lives near you who has a pair with Babys of this age he could be given to.



Babys of this age are extremely delicate and unforgiving for people to manage...and or everything has to be very particular.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Sorry for the late reply. Last night was a little rough. My heating pad shuts off automatically, so I had to wake up every 20 minutes or so to turn it back on. He's still not warming up very much. When I found him, he was in the middle of the sidewalk under a tree. I looked up into the tree and didn't see a nest anywhere. 

I'm in Fort Worth, TX. 

The formula I have is Nutri-Start baby bird formula. It's the only one our PetSmart had. If I need to, I can run to a feed supply store and see if they have a different brand. 

I don't know how to get a bigger picture. Here's it linked from somewhere else, and I'll try to get a closer shot in the meantime. The flash on my camera is really strong so it's hard to get close enough.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Also, I'm really worried because he hasn't had anything to eat or drink since yesterday early evening because I read never to feed them if they're cold. I just checked on him again and even though he's not warm enough, it is slowly increasing. I know it says to keep the heating pad on low, but I turned it up to the second level. I just don't think it's hot enough. Even the washrag he's sitting on isn't that warm. 

But is there anything I should do as far as food or water? He's moving around and even making noises! There are a few small green droppings on the washcloth from last night.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Hi, you shouldn't feed the little guy till he's warm enough.....that's correct, however, you need to get him warmed up pretty soon and fed............as long as you are there to monitor the baby, turn the heat pad up some until he's warm enough. I don't think it would hurt anything to at least give him a wee bit of water......just drop it along the beak and let him swallow. Do you have a way of checking the actual temperature? An adults temp runs around 103 or so (maybe even a little higher.......can't remember exactly right this minute) and so that's pretty warm when they're under Dad and Mom. I tend to believe that this a little dove, but I'm not sure. At this point though, there's not really much difference in how to take care of him.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Also, the nutri-start is fine.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

How do I go about checking his temperature? I put a thermometer under him but it's not working. 

He does feel warmer, though. I'm going to go ahead and mix a little bit of formula really really runny and see if he'll drink it.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

He voiced his dissatisfaction with the runny runny formula loud and clear! He drank one or two drops, but I gave up. He wasn't really chirping, more like...long squeaky grunts. I don't know how to describe it. I haven't heard it since I was back home, hatching chicks.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, you can't give up.........not if he's going to live. You feeding him isn't what he's used to OR anything close to being natural to him. You'll just have to open his little beak and drop some formula in there whether he likes it or not. LOL..............I can't tell you how much to give him......I never measure.....just go by how his crop looks. Full and spongy, but not tight and bulging. A few small feedings is better than large amounts being fed at one time. Never feed him unless his crop has emptied from the last feeding.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

If you can get just a bit of food into him, then try again later. Do you have him in a basket or something? If you'll cover him lightly with a cloth or feather duster is you have one, he'll like that. (I don't know WHEN I owned one of those things last ). The heating pad on low, covered with a cloth, him on top of that covered with a cloth should help keep him warm. If he was still under Mom, he'd be pretty much in the dark, warm and snuggly until feeding time.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Okay, I got probably 1 ml into him. He just didn't enjoy the position the first time I think. I had to basically give him no choice about moving, and then he really started eating. I don't know what a full crop looks like, and I can't get a good picture of his front to show you guys. I'm still working on it. 

I think the problem with the heating pad is it already has a thick cloth cover, plus the washrag, then him. I don't think the heat was reaching him on low. 

I can't tell you how rewarding it was when he finally started eating! I was so proud! I really hope this little guy makes it. My husband already said "Great, I guess this means we have to go buy a bird cage?"


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Okay, I got probably 1 ml into him. He just didn't enjoy the position the first time I think. I had to basically give him no choice about moving, and then he really started eating. I don't know what a full crop looks like, and I can't get a good picture of his front to show you guys. I'm still working on it.
> 
> I think the problem with the heating pad is it already has a thick cloth cover, plus the washrag, then him. I don't think the heat was reaching him on low.
> 
> I can't tell you how rewarding it was when he finally started eating! I was so proud! I really hope this little guy makes it. *My husband already said "Great, I guess this means we have to go buy a bird cage?" *



Oh, that's funny............you told him "yes".......right? I'll see if I can find a couple of pictures with full cropped babies...........


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Of course I said yes  I saw another thread on here where someone took the chick and raised it, then offered to let the finder adopt it. So even if I can't raise it through the 30 minute feedings, I'd still get to love him later! 

Here are pictures. My camera is horrible with the up-close shots, so sorry they're blurry.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, yea, they're a bit blurry........LOL...but it looks like his little crop is full. At this stage, it won't take much to fill him up, however, if all goes right, it won't take long for it to empty either. 
Here's a picture of one I raised a few years ago. IMO, the crop is a little TOO full.........this was in 2004 and it was the first one I ever raised. I don't fill em' up quite that full anymore.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Got to run out for a while. If you have any questions, there will be others off and on today. I'll check back in later. Gonna be fun watching this little guy grow. Better take lots of pictures. They grow SOOO fast............


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Well his is nowhere NEAR that full. But it's fuller than it was. He did look all bony. Now there's a little padding to his front. Until I'm a bit more confident, though, I'm going to stick with this. And you said not to feed him again until it's empty? How do I know it's empty? Because the insert that came with the formula said to look through his mouth, but his mouth doesn't open very big, at least that I've seen. They have pictures of birds with their mouths gaping open, and he's only opened his a little bit.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I think doves are like pigeons, and they don't gape for their food. Their parents regurgitate food by allowing the baby to put its beak inside theirs. You can also try using a clean baby bottle nipple in reverse and put it backwards on a syringe and push some baby bird formula into that and see if he will eat from it.

You will know when the crop is empty as it will not balloon out anymore and you can feel the crop to make sure it is empty. You can gently feel it. Baby birds will eat about every 3 to 4 hours. The crop should feel like a beanbag when the baby has had enough, not like an inflated balloon.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

He just opened his eyes!!!! He was chirping a lot and I uncovered him and HIS EYES ARE OPEN!!!!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi MrsM.

Well...first off...thanks for rescuing the little baby. She was surely a goner had you not.

Next...you are in probably the most challenging position a nanny can be in. A squeaker this young is really a challenge.

With that said.....the signs are that things are going very, very WELL ! 
~You have the heating thing going (as mentioned by others, DO put a little something on top of the baby as well). 
~You have the right food.
~You have had the fortitude to figure out HOW to get formula into her little mouth. 
~You were able to feed her enough to actually have it show in her crop (THAT'S GREAT !!!). So you know you can now get enough food into her to sustain her.
~Apparently, if she opened her eyes as well as vocalized a lot, she seems like she is aware (as aware as a youngster can be) and active. That's great...that she is showing a little spunk is awesome !

All of those are great signs. 

Check up on her crop every hour (during the daytime - even at night, parents DON'T feed their chicks; so you can take a good 6-7 hours off at night from feeding, I would think). Now, you DON'T have to look down his throat...just feel the crop (now that you know where it is); if the sponginess is still there, don't feed. But when you get the sense that the crop has gone down and is not as spongy as before...or if it seems completely empty (i.e. you touch it and you can feel her body behind the crop)...then it's OK to try to feed again. Crops can 'balloon' very big in youngsters...sometimes it looks like they have a huge balloon under their chins....but I wouldn't try feeding her that much, yet.....she is probably still somewhat stressed.

Absolutely, they do not like feeling an unfamiliar being feeding them...but it's the warm, runny food which brings them both comfort and sustenance. Getting 1 ML into them (that's the same as 1cc, I believe?) is a pretty good feeding.

Keep it up !!!!


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks everyone! I'm so happy right now! He was chirping and moving around a lot, and as soon as I picked him up he opened his mouth (not gaping, obviously), so I fed him another 1ml, which he devoured! Now he's calmed down and sleeping, I believe. His crop is definitely full, I think! I can really tell a difference now. Thanks for the beanbag reference, that helped a lot! 

It's so cool, he now moves toward my voice! I was on one side of his box talking, and he was on the other, close to my husband, and he moved to my side of the box, chirping the whole way! I'm so proud! There is no way I'm giving him up now!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Baby Mourning Dove :

http://www.acdavisphotography.com/sitebuilder/images/New_Born_Mourning_Dove_ACDavis_2007_6x8-403x268.jpg

Baby Pigeon:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/3-Day_Old_baby_racing_pigeon.jpg

Hmmmm.....which is it ?......


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Jaye said:


> Baby Mourning Dove :
> 
> http://www.acdavisphotography.com/sitebuilder/images/New_Born_Mourning_Dove_ACDavis_2007_6x8-403x268.jpg
> 
> ...


When I saw the first pictures of MrsM's baby, I went with Dove. But after the second set of pictures, even though blurry, I'm thinking Pigeon, but then when you think about where she found the baby, you think, Dove.............so...........In answer to "which is it?"...........I'm not even sure yet.................


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I have no clue which he is! He looks like both to me! He definitely has the darker skin though. I haven't found a spot of pink on him yet.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> I have no clue which he is! He looks like both to me! He definitely has the darker skin though. I haven't found a spot of pink on him yet.


I guess we'll be able to tell more in a few days. I'm going with a dove.......hey, I've got a 50/50 chance, right??


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Haha I'm leaning toward dove as well


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Welcome, MrsM! Sounds like you are doing a GREAT job with your new little one!

When I first saw the pics, I thought _pigeon_. I will stick with that. Besides, Lovebirds (Renee) said Dove. Don't get many chances to go man*a* y man*a* with Renee...just for kicks!!  

Hugs and Scritches to your little one! Soon, you will have to be thinking about a name...

Shi


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I've already decided on Piggie  In one of my moments of extreme exhaustion last night I though "Piggie the Pigeon!" and if he starts acting feminine, Miss Piggy! 

I saw somewhere else something about bathing. Do I need to worry about that anytime soon? So far I've just been wiping away the messy formula with a Kleenex. 

And his crop is still full! Even though the white washrag is showing plenty of evidence of poops!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> I've already decided on Piggie  In one of my moments of extreme exhaustion last night I though "Piggie the Pigeon!" and if he starts acting feminine, Miss Piggy!
> 
> I saw somewhere else something about bathing. Do I need to worry about that anytime soon? So far I've just been wiping away the messy formula with a Kleenex.
> 
> And his crop is still full! Even though the white washrag is showing plenty of evidence of poops!


No, he's way to young for a bath. Just keep washing with the washrag as best you can.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You're doing a great job, MrsM! The larger version of your original picture makes me still think Mourning Dove, but like some of the others, the blurry pics said Pigeon!  Guess we shall soon see. If you should decide you need to find a rehabber for this little one, I believe Rogers Wildlife is at least somewhat in your area and might know of a place that is even closer to you. http://www.rogerswildlife.org/

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 



You are doing very well..!


"Warm" for this Baby means that he is through-and-through around 101-103 Degrees.

How one acheives this can vary, but, when using a Heating Pad, having elected whatever setting seems best, one covers it with soft cloth, just as you have, and, usually, one also covers the Baby itself with another small soft Cloth, in order for the ambient warmth to be contained intimatly.


It is a good idea also to make this a little humid by misting the upper cloth or having a small wet cloth folded up right next to him.


Poops tell us that food is going 'through', so of course, seeing lots-of-poops, is very good..!


Formula should close to ( but not more than ) the desired teperature he himself should be - ie: around 100 degrees.


The underside of your wrist is a good 'tester' as for whether somehting is about the same as, a little less than, or a little more than your own body temp.

If in doubt, just figure to match your own body temp for the formula.

Formula must not be heated in a microwave...but may be heated in a little Glass or Cup, in a Pan of Warm Water, while being stirred to make sure it is uniformly marm and well mixed.


He would gladly eat out of a cut-off end of a conventional people-baby Nipple, which is how I feed them.

If you are interested, I would be glad to post some iages later today.


Adding a few drops of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the small batch of formula is a good idea with situations like this. ( Say, if making an Ounce of formula, adding about four drops or five...)


He would appreciate being in your closed Palm, so he is upright and comfortable of course, so if you would like to do that, you can do it plenty.


Good going!


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

one more thing...don't get overzealous with the feedings (not that you are at all; sounds like you are doing fine)....better to maintain the small amounts of food at each feeding, as you have been doing.

complications can arise w/ overfeeding....just a suggestion if you are thinking "oh, just one more little bite" ...

keep up the good work !


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jaye said:


> one more thing...don't get overzealous with the feedings (not that you are at all; sounds like you are doing fine)....better to maintain the small amounts of food at each feeding, as you have been doing.
> 
> complications can arise w/ overfeeding....just a suggestion if you are thinking "oh, just one more little bite" ...
> 
> keep up the good work !


Good mention Jay, 


In Nature, the infant Pigeon-Babys get fed small, delicate meals, every 20 minutes or so, more or less around the clock...


After the first week or so, meals become a little larger, and with more time in-between...


Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Just thought I'd check back in and let everyone know Piggie's doing very well! He's currently in my hand waiting to be fed (and being very vocal about it!) He's eating very well. I'm definitely not worried about him starving!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Just thought I'd check back in and let everyone know Piggie's doing very well! He's currently in my hand waiting to be fed (and being very vocal about it!) He's eating very well. I'm definitely not worried about him starving!


Glad to hear the good news. Had wondered about Piggie and how he was doing.............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Good mention Jay,
> 
> 
> In Nature, the infant Pigeon-Babys get fed small, delicate meals, every 20 minutes or so, more or less around the clock...
> ...



Phil, really now........where do you get this stuff? I have a loft full of birds and I'm always trying to get pictures of them feeding the babies. If they fed them every 20 minutes, it would be NO problem to get as many pictures as I wanted. 
I guess maybe other types of birds feed in small amounts and seem to make a full days job of doing so, but not pigeons. 
I don't think MrM is trying to feed her little Piggie that often, but what if someone else read that and actually tried to do it? Let's see, every 20 minutes or so,........so let's say every 30 minutes around the clock. That's 48 feedings in one day..........


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, see, parent birds feed their babies whenever they beg for it... A small amount of food often will satisfy the baby enough to put them to sleep until the crop is more empty, when they start begging for more. They don't have to prepare formula like we do, they just feed on demand. And just a little will satisfy tiny babies. (Though parrots are a bit of an exception; my budgie has never been satisfied with a less than full crop).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> Phil, really now........where do you get this stuff? I have a loft full of birds and I'm always trying to get pictures of them feeding the babies. If they fed them every 20 minutes, it would be NO problem to get as many pictures as I wanted.
> I guess maybe other types of birds feed in small amounts and seem to make a full days job of doing so, but not pigeons.
> I don't think MrM is trying to feed her little Piggie that often, but what if someone else read that and actually tried to do it? Let's see, every 20 minutes or so,........so let's say every 30 minutes around the clock. That's 48 feedings in one day..........




The Pigeons I have or have had in here do so...


I am not saying that a person who is hand raising an infant Pigeon SHOULD do so, but, no harm if they DID do so, so long as they did tiny delicate meals the way which the Pigeon parents would.


If someone wanted to feed an infant Pigeon every twenty minutes, 24 hours-a-day, no reason not to....so long as they do not feed more than the infant is comfortable to digest and process...and as long as they are responding to the infant's request and not forcing it on them.

Infant Pigeons sleep, wake up, 'peep' wish to eat, then nod off, sleep, wake poop, sleep, 'peep' to be fed, eat, nod off, poop...etc.


That is what they do.


When their Eggs pip, the parent who is sitting feeds the infants very often, with tiny short delicate meals...and, they do so around the clock.

Probably, ifthe infant just sleeps a while, however long, the parent just lets them sleep.


If you ever have a Nesting Pair where you can be two feet from them and they are in easy sight, you can sit there in the dark at night and find out for yourself.


The infant wakes often, 'peeps', gets fed, and goes back to sleep.



I have had them build Nests on my desk here, two feet from my Computer, in my direct line of sight on the desk, and, 'every twenty minutes' is about right, and literally, it seemed like practically every time I did glance to them, the tiny infant was being fed.

If it was fifteen minutes since the last feeding, then 25 inutes till the next, I do not think that is a deal-breaker since my approxiation is an average.

Whatever you see when walking out to your 'Loft' has nothing to do with it, or with what really and actually goes on, or what you could be seeing if you were literally with them, verses walking out there once in a while.


Bear in mind, for the first five days or so, the parents are only feeding 'Crop Milk', so whether the parent's Crop is full of Seeds or not makes no difference.


Even in the semi-darkness, with all the lights out and or just the Computer on and sitting doing e-mails or other, there is enough light in here to see them doing it, and also one hears the infant making tiny 'peeps' preceeding the feeding then quieting down.


Same thing when I had various ones who had Nests and Babys next to my Bed.


Just very dim filtered ligh in here, and, one could hear the infants 'peep', get fed, then quiet again...during the night or dark-time hours before dawn.



Love, 


Phil
l v


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Few live WITH their pigeons as Phil does. Can certainly give one a whole new perspective on the life and loves of a pigeon!

Not that he would admit it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Phil _may_ be developing feathers! 

No one has ALL the answers, but living up close and personal can sure give interesting insights! 

Few have the opportuninty or even the desire, to live so up close and pigeon personal. Phil does have this opportunity. 

If I want to see inside the pigeon "mind," I'm heading for Phil!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Mrs M,

There are small bubbles that appear on a hatchling's shoulders when it had received enough food. Once these bubbles start to inflate stop feeding, it means that the crop is full enough.

There is a photo of these bubbles in post 44 of this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=23065&referrerid=560

I am hand rearing a eurasian collared dove at the moment. If I let him put his beak between my figers he will gape, believing that his beak is inside his parent's beak.

Cynthia

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I am hand rearing a eurasian collared dove at the moment. If I let him put his beak between my figers he will gape, believing that his beak is inside his parent's beak.
> 
> Cynthia
> 
> Cynthia



Hi Cynthia, 



Yes, when they will 'gape' like that, and once old enough for 'Seeds', it is a nice way to put Seeds into their mouths for them to swallow.


I have had various ones who would do this, and 'gape' really wide too.


They love to eat..!


Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I can't get him to eat enough for the bubbles to form. Is it ok if he doesn't eat that much? Because so far he's stopped eating when he's full, and I thought it looked like his crop was full.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 



Far as I can gather, you are doing just wonderfully, whatever you are doing..!


I do not personally know if the 'bubble-thing' even happens this early or this young...or, if is maybe pretty subtle at this age for one to notice unless one is used to noticing it, and I am not used to noticing that, even if it is there.

But, you will likely notice it maybe around day six or something...once he and his Crop are larger.



Doesn't matter, so long as for now, he is happy and eating with interest, and not running-on-empty...as long as the food is digesting well and passing...and he is making lots of nice little poops.


I have very seldom had any Babys to raise who were that young...usually, the ones I have had, were like five or six days old, and up from there into 'Peeperhood' and 'Squeakerhood'.


The true 'Infants' are so much more delicate, and, their meals of course are much smaller.


Feeding around here is a little hap-hazard, but if I have one of say five or six days old, so long as he is up to it, I try and feed about every fourty five minutes to an hour, smallish meals...with maybe a five or six hour break when I myself get some sleep.


Then once they are about a week old, every hour or hour and a half or even two hours, or as may be, and I let them stuff themselves pretty good so they stay semi-full all the time...and by then, they are eating small whole Seeds in a 'formula-slurry'...and their Crops have enlarged to hold wuite a bit for 'coasting' if I have to head out a while.


Make very very sure your formula is thoroughly hydrated, and, that it is very thoroughly and homogeneously blended. There are very real dangers to the Infant or Baby if it is not.



Best wishes!


Phil

Sweeping and Scraping and Cleaning and Mopping and Scrubbing...in...
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> I can't get him to eat enough for the bubbles to form. Is it ok if he doesn't eat that much? Because so far he's stopped eating when he's full, and I thought it looked like his crop was full.




If you can get a decent image up close showing him from above, and from the side, right after feed-time, then various of us here can render opinions on
just how 'Full' we think he is.


They are so small at that age, and their Crops are so small, being "full" is fairly subtle compared to how they are later..!


Later, their Crops can hold so much, they lay there and you would swear their Crop is bigger than the rest of them is..!


Like 'Bean Bags' with 'Wings'...





Phil
l v


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

MrsM said:


> I can't get him to eat enough for the bubbles to form. Is it ok if he doesn't eat that much? Because so far he's stopped eating when he's full, and I thought it looked like his crop was full.


I think that is OK...I am not sure the shoulder bubbles are an absolute, personally....not at this early-on an age. Maybe more so next week. That's kinda what I was getting at earlier....better to do a tad of underfeeding and feed more often than overfeeding at all. Overfeeding at this age, even just once at just one single feeding...can be really dangerous.

A pic of the baby's crop after one of those feedings would be nice.....but it really sounds to me like,  from how you describe the crop and all, you are staying the course just right and she is getting the nutrition she needs.

Good job !


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> I think that is OK...I am not sure the shoulder bubbles are an absolute, personally....not at this early-on an age. Maybe more so next week. That's kinda what I was getting at earlier....better to do a tad of underfeeding and feed more often than overfeeding at all. Overfeeding at this age, even just once at just one single feeding...can be really dangerous.
> 
> A pic of the baby's crop after one of those feedings would be nice.....but it really sounds to me like, from how you describe the crop and all, you are staying the course just right and she is getting the nutrition she needs.
> 
> Good job !


I agree!


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

He gaped at me today! I'm going to have to go get a bottle nipple so he can start eating correctly. He definitely wants to! Up until now, I've just been using a syringe and kinda dropping the drops of formula into his mouth. 

He's getting much more active, too! I was really worried about him because I took him to work with me, only to discover they don't have an outlet for my heating pad in the bathroom. Since I work in a daycare, keeping him around the kids wasn't an option. So it was back home with him. As soon as I got home, I grabbed him for the feeding, and I've never seen him want it so much! He was peeping and moving around and gaping and everything! I'm just so happy I've kept him alive this long, now I'm even happier that he's actually progressing!!!

I'll try to get new pictures tonight. His wings are starting to get black feather-type things on them. Not exactly feathers, but close.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

That's great! We knew you could do it!! Can't wait to see the pictures.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Okay here are some pictures I just took! I just fed him, and he wasn't excited about stopping!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Excellent ! What a cute lil' baby !!!

Looks from the pics that he/she is getting some substantial food into that crop.....probably not full....but definitely those pics show a significantly good meal, IMHO.

Keep it up. As long as she continues to seem as vivacious as you have been reporting...everything is fine. Red flag to be aware of here would be if her activity level dropped off suddenly....if she started getting lethargic, if she stopped vocalizing, etc.

But I gotta hand it to you, M...you may be a natural-born pidgie-mom !!!!! Did'ja ever think...?


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Haha nope, never would've thought I'd be a good pidgie mom! My mom had cockateils and parakeets while I was growing up, and I never cared for them. They tended to annoy me. But this little guy has certainly grown on me! 

I have noticed that he gets very lethargic about fifteen minutes after he eats. I assumed it was because he's full and digesting the food and wasn't worried. Should I be?


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Oh yeah, can you tell if he's a pigeon or a dove yet?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Haha nope, never would've thought I'd be a good pidgie mom! My mom had cockateils and parakeets while I was growing up, and I never cared for them. They tended to annoy me. But this little guy has certainly grown on me!
> 
> I have noticed that he gets very lethargic about fifteen minutes after he eats. I assumed it was because he's full and digesting the food and wasn't worried. *Should I be?*


I wouldn't be, not as long as he's enthusiastic when he's eating. At his age, it's normal to just sleep and eat (and poop)..........he'll liven up a bit in about another week.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Oh yeah, can you tell if he's a pigeon or a dove yet?


Honestly, I can't tell yet, but I'm still going with Dove........


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

MrsM said:


> I have noticed that he gets very lethargic about fifteen minutes after he eats. I assumed it was because he's full and digesting the food and wasn't worried. Should I be?


Yeeesh...I hope not...that's what happens to ME after I eat a nice big meal.....


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> Honestly, I can't tell yet, but I'm still going with Dove........


I'm still sticking with pigeon...

Keep up the GREAT work, MrsM!!! We are all rootin' for you both!!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

mr squeaks said:


> I'm still sticking with pigeon...
> 
> 
> 
> Shi


I already KNEW that................


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> He gaped at me today! I'm going to have to go get a bottle nipple so he can start eating correctly. He definitely wants to! Up until now, I've just been using a syringe and kinda dropping the drops of formula into his mouth.
> 
> He's getting much more active, too! I was really worried about him because I took him to work with me, only to discover they don't have an outlet for my heating pad in the bathroom. Since I work in a daycare, keeping him around the kids wasn't an option. So it was back home with him. As soon as I got home, I grabbed him for the feeding, and I've never seen him want it so much! He was peeping and moving around and gaping and everything! I'm just so happy I've kept him alive this long, now I'm even happier that he's actually progressing!!!
> 
> I'll try to get new pictures tonight. His wings are starting to get black feather-type things on them. Not exactly feathers, but close.




Hi MrsM, 



Good going..!


If you did wish to consider using a 'Nipple' for feeding, here are a couple Links which have some casual images and Text-Captions explaining things somewhat.


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/mvc-003s.html


&


http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2599716200067835264JwGKGB



The 'Nipple' takes a little finnesse and co-ordination for allowing the Baby to have the same rythum of eating and swallowing he would have when eating from his parent's throat...they know what to do, and are willing to modify it for this, so it works very well...


More details if you want them, just let me know...

Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I keep planning to stop at the store and pick up a baby nipple, but I keep forgetting. Having a baby at home keeps me from running too many errands!

Quick question. His crop is seeming to empty very very slowly. I'm averaging at least 4 hours between feedings. His droppings are really runny and almost look like they have white squiggly lines in them. Also, his crop isn't really tightening the way it did. Is this just because he's growing and getting bigger? It's not huge, by any means, but there's a little bulge there all the time. I wish my camera took better pictures so I could show you all what I meant!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM,




I was thinking that he looks a little dehydrated and arid in the last images.


Would you describe in detail your ingredients and proceedures for his formula?


Maybe we can review some of this and see if there is anything to correct.


Even at the age of yours, there should be a sort of 'Head UP' posture or poise, and definite slightly 'dampish' way about he skin and down...


Anyway...


Lets see what we can figure out...


Does his Crop seem 'hard'? or does it seem to have air or gas in it?


Can you post a close-up in-focus i,age of the recent poops?


Any 'yellow' in the poops, even only faintly 'yellow'?




Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A couple of months ago, I raised two pigeons just that size. I didn't use a heating pad. I bought one of those heaters that they sell for keeping reptiles warm. You can hang it over the box you keep him in, and raise or lower it until it reaches the right temperature where the baby is. I placed a small window thermometer in the cage near the birds, so I would know how warm it was where they were. It should be kept at about 80 to 85 degrees. To feed them, I came from the back of their head, and placed my thumb and index finger on either side of their beak. When you feed from an eye dropper, you should go way to the back of his tongue. You don't want the formula to go under his tongue, because it can then go into his windpipe and drown him. Just go back as far as you can over the tongue. I started with abt. 5 eyedroppers full at first, then increased it every couple of days. I never made it real watery, because I worked also, and could only feed them 3 or 4 times a day, but if you fill him, that is enough. I've heard rehabbers say 3 times a day, and some say 5. Mine did fine on 3 and four feedings a day, as long as you give him enough each time. You sound like you are doing fine. Just wanted to share what I did after reading as much as I could about it. There is another way to feed, which is probably more natural for the piji. You get a large syringe, from which you have cut off the end. To this you add the formula, and cover with a balloon, or self adhesive bandage, into which you have cut an X. Insert the little guys beak, and it will feel to him as though he is feeding from his parents. Once the beak is inserted, they gobble the food from the syringe, just as if they were feeding from their parents. I had found this info after we were well on our way, so I never used it, but if it ever comes up again, I shall try it. I saw a video on it, and it looked great. The little guy was pigging out. Good luck with the baby. This is the link http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/syringe_method.htm Check it out, you may want to give it a try.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

4-5 hrs. between feedings....I think that seems OK. I mean, that's 4 feedings a day.....

crop never has to empty entirely, I don't think. It's just that if it really isn't significantly emptying that we have a problem. MrsM...is he still alert and vocalizing and all ?

If you can answer pdp's questions, that'd be great. could be that a little more hydration would help.....

I will also throw in another Q to the more experienced here: 

Folks...any need to concern ourslves with probiotics at this young age? Or is the formula good for now ?


Keep it up.....you are doing amazingly !


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The crop is supposed to be empty before you feed again. Probably very little in it on occasion is okay. But I know you're really not supposed to feed if it isn't empty. Adding a little applesauce, baby applesauce being preferable, to the formula helps the crop to empty,


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jaye said:


> 4-5 hrs. between feedings....I think that seems OK. I mean, that's 4 feedings a day.....
> 
> crop never has to empty entirely, I don't think. It's just that if it really isn't significantly emptying that we have a problem. MrsM...is he still alert and vocalizing and all ?
> 
> ...



Hi Jaye, 


General Notes - 

Yes, exactly...if the Crop is not passing the food well or within reasonable time, then there is a suggestion of a problem.


Adding ACV, or using ACV-Water to mix the formula, for say, every other day, is probably a good thing to do to prevent Yeasts from developing too uch in possibly 'slowish' Crops that are trying to deal with less than ideal formula and consistancys of formula ( should be a consistancy about like Melted Ice Cream on a 'hot' day...AND one should offer or give Water between meals as well...)


Wrong consistancy formula, chilled Babys being force fed...sour formulas, formulas made in haste with hot tap water, rancid old powders in-a-can sitting on the shelf for who knows how long...not thoroughly mixed, formulas not thoroughly hydrated...heated in microwaves, formulas made of wrong ingredients, all of these, can be lethal...or at least 'bad'.


Formula for true infants, ideally would be like fine 'cottage cheese' in consistancy, and have no liquid in it, but I know of no way to make such a formula...so, one has to just be very careful, since the very young do not handle liquids well...but, they will handle them well once five or six days old.


Methods which can not allow the formula to be quite 'thin' and 'watery' ( once appropriate ) court problems and encourage dehydraiton or Crop stasis or Candida infections resulting.

Methods which do not permit the Baby to drink Water between meals, once he is five or six days old...methods which to not admit small whole Seed in the formula once the Baby is six or seven days old, also are limiting and not very good, for the Baby or for how he grows and how his needs change.


Anyone trying to feed a healthy three four or five week old Pigeon with an Eye dropper, would be there all day doing it.


Foods or formulas which the Baby would not eat volentarily, probably should not even be fed in the first place.



Pigeon parents feed the infants tiny meals, all day long...and most of, if not all night long too.

Later, the meals get larger, the feedings less frequent, and the Babys are never even close to ever being 'empty'...instead, the Pigeon parents keep the Babys 'topped off' in the feedings...with usually very 'full' Crops.


If we have a wholesome 'formula' recipes, there is no reason to ever wait untill their Crop is 'empty', the Baby or youngster can just be kept 'topped off' with feedings...

The whole admonishion about this, is really about bad or crude or indifferent formulas, usually force fed, not hydrated well, too thick, badly mixed, and the dangers of those spoiling in the crop, sticking to the sides of the Crop and spoiling there, from bad preparation, wrong consistancy, wrong PH, dehydrated Babys resulting from formula feeds only and being too thick at that, with no water between meals, and so on.



The very young, need to be around 100 degrees F.

If the Baby pants, he is too hot...

If a Baby is comfortable, he will 'look' comfortable.



They will die if kept at 85 or 90 or even 95 degrees Farenheit, from their system slowing down too far to digest and process food, the food spoils in their Crop...or, the chances of not dieing are not very good if not kept adequately 'warm'...



The combination of chilled babys, and poor formula practices, singularly or combined, account for the overwhelming majority of problems or failures in people's attempts to care for and feed infant or baby or young or even imminent fledgeling-age Pigeons and Doves.




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> The crop is supposed to be empty before you feed again. Probably very little in it on occasion is okay. But I know you're really not supposed to feed if it isn't empty. Adding a little applesauce, baby applesauce being preferable, to the formula helps the crop to empty,



Hi Jay3, 


I think the 'Applesauce' is a nice addition, and a potentially useful one also because it shifts the PH into an acidic range, discouraging Yeasts and various Bacteria one does not want propagating in the Crop, and the 'slower' a Crop is, oweing to formula thickening in it, the more likely bacteria and yeasts will be propagating in there and causing problems and infections.


ACV-Water accomplishes the same result when used to mix the formula with, instead of using plain water, and one does not necessarily do it every day.

One does not have to do it at all, if the formula is one which is well hydrated to begin with, does not stick to the sides of he Crop, does not give off it's hydration and thicken into a 'slug' in the Crop, and so on...


Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, I kept my babies at between 80 and 85, as I was told by different rehabbers, and they were always warm enough. Didn't have any problems. And they always felt very warm when picked up. However, I have heard of people keeping it too hot, and their birds lost their feathers. I was trying to keep them warm enough, but at a safe temp. And I fed them by eyedropper, and didn't spend all day on one bird. I emptied the eye dropper way to the back of the tongue, so it would go down into their crop. and they will gobble as you do it and help to get it down. It did take a lot of time, as I was feeding 6 of them. But I really had no problems with the crop emptying, except for one time, when Luigi first started eating seed. I may have let him pick up too much. The applesauce seemed to work. Every now and then I mixed it into their formula. All 6 survived and are thriving. The only reason it was so time consuming (which it was), was because of the fact that there were six of them. I knew about tube feeding, but as I had never attempted it before, I wasn't going to take a chance of hurting them. I just mentioned this, because a person certainly can raise a pigeon baby, and do a good job of it by feeding with an eye dropper. Been there, done that. My goodness, if it was such an exact science, I'm amazed that any of the ferrals make it at all, given the number of adverse conditions out there. And I'm sure many of them are not the best piji parents in the world.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Where would I get the ACV water? 

He's still very vocal and alert. Seems to be getting more so every day! He's definitely laying better. His first few days, every time I peeked in at him I thought he was dead, because he laid to the side with his head on the ground. Now he lays with his head nestled on his chest or neck. He wobbles quite a bit. Haven't seen a really sure step yet, mostly just shuffling and wobbling around the box. He's probably do better, but my heating pad has a pad on it and then I have the washrag there too. I try to keep him covered with the washrag most of the time, but 90% of the time he just wiggles out from under it and I find him sitting on top of it. Usually the only time I can keep him under it is right after a meal. He seems to get cool after meals. I assumed the energy spent digesting the food was diverting the energy spent keeping him warm. 

Formula. I had been heating the water in the microwave before I added the formula. About five seconds or so. I also had been adding a little bit of plain yogurt. Someone told me to do that to keep yeast from growing. The formula was the runny ice cream consistency. Never too hot. I didn't realize I could do water between meals. One website I found said never to give water to a baby bird. I made his feeding this morning pretty watery, with no yogurt, to see if that speeds up his crop emptying.

The crop never looks full after a couple hours, just not completely empty. It does feel more like air in there than anything else, but it doesn't stay in there all the time. This morning his crop was completely empty, but he hadn't been fed since 7:00 last night. I tried feeding him again at midnight, but it still felt like something was in there, so I wanted to make sure it could completely empty still. 

Like I said, he's still pretty vocal and alert. I'm probably being the over-bearing worried mother here. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything right! I must be doing something right, he's about six or seven days old now! 

I'm going to definitely go to the store today and buy a bottle nipple. He acts like he's not satisfied with the feeding from a syringe. Now that he can move around, he chooses to do it during feedings! He's pecking at the end of the syringe and can't seem to hold still long enough for me to get a drop in his mouth!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Where would I get the ACV water?
> 
> He's still very vocal and alert. Seems to be getting more so every day! He's definitely laying better. His first few days, every time I peeked in at him I thought he was dead, because he laid to the side with his head on the ground. Now he lays with his head nestled on his chest or neck. He wobbles quite a bit. Haven't seen a really sure step yet, mostly just shuffling and wobbling around the box. He's probably do better, but my heating pad has a pad on it and then I have the washrag there too. I try to keep him covered with the washrag most of the time, but 90% of the time he just wiggles out from under it and I find him sitting on top of it. Usually the only time I can keep him under it is right after a meal. He seems to get cool after meals. I assumed the energy spent digesting the food was diverting the energy spent keeping him warm.
> 
> ...


Morning.........ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar. Most try to use the stuff in the health food stores that has the "mother" in it............I personally use the grocery store brand. 
Sounds like to me he's doing ok and acting normal. They don't get REAL active until about 2 weeks old. They'll scoot around some, but tend to stay in a confined area. At about 2 1/2 weeks, he'll start getting up and trying to walk.....but they're not real good at that at first. I've always given my babies a drink of water after feeding. I just dribble some along side their beak and let them swallow. I NEVER squirt it in their mouth. That's dangerous if it "goes down the wrong pipe"............
I also always boil a little water to mix the formula. After it's mixed, I put the container in a small amount of hot water to keep it warm. I stir and stir and stir and then let it sit a few minutes and usually have to add some more water. The longer it sits, the "stiffer" it gets and if you give it to them TOO soon after mixing, that's what will happen to it once inside their crop.
Anyway..........everything sounds good to me. If you feel he's getting air in his crop, someone will have to help you with that. I've heard of it happening, but have never actually seen it.................


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

MrsM said:


> Where would I get the ACV water?
> 
> He's still very vocal and alert. Seems to be getting more so every day! He's definitely laying better. His first few days, every time I peeked in at him I thought he was dead, because he laid to the side with his head on the ground. Now he lays with his head nestled on his chest or neck. He wobbles quite a bit. Haven't seen a really sure step yet, mostly just shuffling and wobbling around the box. He's probably do better, but my heating pad has a pad on it and then I have the washrag there too. I try to keep him covered with the washrag most of the time, but 90% of the time he just wiggles out from under it and I find him sitting on top of it. Usually the only time I can keep him under it is right after a meal. He seems to get cool after meals. I assumed the energy spent digesting the food was diverting the energy spent keeping him warm.
> 
> ...


Really, If you are using applesauce the kind for human babies, you don't need to go out and buy the apple cider vinegar unless you really want to. Personally, I prefer the applesauce. 
You do need to keep him warm though and not get cool after feedings as that can slow down the crop and that is never good.
Make sure he has something underneath him to grip to avoid splayed leg.
I am so impressed with the terrific job you are doing and I have been following this thread since the beginning.
I hope it isn't too confusing with all the different input. My personal opinion is that you don't need to make it more complicated than it needs to be. 

1.Keep the baby warm. If he can move away from the heat, make his nest smaller.Once the feathers come in, you won't need to keep him so warm.
2. Never feed until the crop is empty or very close to being empty.
3. Keep something underneath the baby that has some traction and gives the baby something to grip with his feet.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sounds like things ARE going well. So, in keeping in the spirit of Charis' post, I will also keep it simple:

~ If the syringe feeding is getting messy/difficult because Piggie keeps bobbing her head around, you could either try the nipple method, or gently hold her head still while feeding syringe with other hand.

~ I would say that since you are doing formula and spot of yogurt, that's a good combo. I think doing a more watery base to the food is definitely worth a try, just to see if it has any effect.

~ The last thing I would say....and you are correct...she must be approaching a week old now.....is, just as a precaution (because things still sound like they are on track quite fine)....you should probably look up an avian vet somewhere in your area and just keep that contact information on hand, just in case. Avian certified vet is preferable to a regular DVM.

Keep it up !


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I also always boil a little water to mix the formula. After it's mixed, I put the container in a small amount of hot water to keep it warm. I stir and stir and stir and then let it sit a few minutes and usually have to add some more water. The longer it sits, the "stiffer" it gets and if you give it to them TOO soon after mixing, that's what will happen to it once inside their crop.
_______________
I mixed mine the same way as Renee, and I also put the little container of food into a larger one with the hot water to keep it warm. If you don't do it that way, the food gets cold before you are through feeding. 

If he moves his head to much to be able to get into his beak and keep it there, try coming from behind his head with you forefinger and thumb. Clasp his beak on each side. This worked great for me, as it helps you stop a lot of his movement. Don't hold too tightly. Just enough to keep his movements under control. 

I didn't think he'd stay under the towel. A smaller box, or I used a reptile heater from the pet shop. You can get them in different wattages: 40, 60, 100. I used a 60 watt, and adjusted the temp by hanging it either higher or lower to the nest. I kept a thermometer in with the babies, so that I would know at a glance, if the temp was staying where I wanted it. Works great. And because the 60 watt threw enough heat, I didn't have to keep it at all close to the bird. I wouldn't want it too close to the bird. They get hot to the touch. Wait till he does start walking. One morning I went in, and there he was, standing there, out of the nest, down at the other end of the cage, squeaking at me and waiting for his breakfast. I was so surprised to see him there, staggering all over. It was precious. You're really going to enjoy all the different stages having one so young. You're doing great. Just relax and enjoy the experience. It's one you'll always remember fondly.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> Where would I get the ACV water?
> 
> He's still very vocal and alert. Seems to be getting more so every day! He's definitely laying better. His first few days, every time I peeked in at him I thought he was dead, because he laid to the side with his head on the ground. Now he lays with his head nestled on his chest or neck. He wobbles quite a bit. Haven't seen a really sure step yet, mostly just shuffling and wobbling around the box. He's probably do better, but my heating pad has a pad on it and then I have the washrag there too. I try to keep him covered with the washrag most of the time, but 90% of the time he just wiggles out from under it and I find him sitting on top of it. Usually the only time I can keep him under it is right after a meal. He seems to get cool after meals. I assumed the energy spent digesting the food was diverting the energy spent keeping him warm.
> 
> ...




Hi MrsM,



If you want to try the 'Nipple', review the images and texts of the two links I posted a little while back, and discuss it with me.

Got to run now...back soon...

Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I checked out the nipple feeding. To give him enough food, do you have any idea how many times you would have to keep filling the nipple? Did you check out the syringe filled, with the balloon or self adhesive bandage covering the end which had been cut off? It makes more sense. You only need to fill it once, and he can eat until he is full. It works. I saw a video of someone feeding that way. The little pigeon in the video was really going after it. He should get enough. You shouldn't have to get up during the night to feed.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I just did my first nipple feeding tonight. Wow, that's so much easier!!! It took him a few minutes to get the hang of it. Too many syringe feedings, I guess. But once he did, wow! He chowed down! I was so amazed how quickly he ate it! Before I knew it, his crop was full!

Instead of adding yogurt to his early feeding tonight, I did applesauce, and mixed it pretty thin. This was at about 6:45 or 7, and by 10 his crop was empty, so I fed again, using the nipple method. 

Thanks for introducing me to this method! Feedings will go so much more quickly now!!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 




You 'Made my Day'...


Glad to hear the happy news..!



Best wishes, 


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jaye said:


> Folks...any need to concern ourslves with probiotics at this young age? Or is the formula good for now ?




Hi Jaye, 



Speaking for myself, I usually add a little powdered 'Pro-Biotics' and also some digestive Enzymes to their Formula.


I also make the Formulas using other things besides or in addition to the basic powder-mix stuff.


Most of the powdered formula mixes have some degree of pro-biotics in them anyway, but I feel it is fine to add a little.



Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

MrsM said:


> I just did my first nipple feeding tonight. Wow, that's so much easier!!! It took him a few minutes to get the hang of it. Too many syringe feedings, I guess. But once he did, wow! He chowed down! I was so amazed how quickly he ate it! Before I knew it, his crop was full!
> 
> Instead of adding yogurt to his early feeding tonight, I did applesauce, and mixed it pretty thin. This was at about 6:45 or 7, and by 10 his crop was empty, so I fed again, using the nipple method.
> 
> Thanks for introducing me to this method! Feedings will go so much more quickly now!!!


I stand corrected. I just saw the picture of the baby with the tiny little nipple. So I thought you'd have to keep filling it.I just went in again, and saw that there were other pictures using different sizes. Looks like it would work. Pretty cool idea. I'm glad it worked for you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> I stand corrected. I just saw the picture of the baby with the tiny little nipple. So I thought you'd have to keep filling it.I just went in again, and saw that there were other pictures using different sizes. Looks like it would work. Pretty cool idea. I'm glad it worked for you



Hi Jay3,




Yes, the 'tiny' version of the 'Nipple', is for 'tiny" Beaks and 'tiny' Babys.


Larger versions, for larger Beaks and larger Babys.





Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

In General, the 'Nipple' allows one to offer Electrolytes, plain Water, Juices, 'formulas' whether fine or course textured, Small whole Seeds in a formula 'slurry', Small Whole Seeds in Water ( which is what the Parents feed oncet he Baby is around five or six days old ) , or small whole Seeds 'dry', which the older Baby or youngster ( say two weeks of age ) will 'gobble' once used to the 'formula' drill.


One can then move to having them 'gobble' small whole seeds out of a Shot Glass, where, usually, after a few rounds, they start 'pecking'.

Or, for Youngsters two weeks of age or more, one can just begin there with that and they then are 'pecking' on their own usually withing a very short time.


One has to keep one's finger tips on the sides or root area of ther Nuzzling Bek for them to find things to 'feel' right, in order to 'gobble'.


Geerally, any youngster of two weeks of age or so who I get in, they are 'pecking' successfully with only a few rounds of the Shot Glass 'gobble'.


Some take longer, some start pecking within fifteen minujtes of being hee, just or being worked with a little.


I feed 'formula' regardless, untill the Bird feels they are getting too grown up to want it anymore, so I always leave it up to them as for when I stop offering it.




Depending on the Pigeon or Dove, some or all of these options may be useful.


This 'Nipple' method of feeding requires the person to work with the Bird, and to have some sensitivty and finesse for both slightly pinching the Nipple so it gently presses against the sides of their Beak, and, for encouraging and following the Bird's rythum and otions in how they naturally eat-and-swallow, pulling their Head 'in' then extending their neck and head 'out'.

It ususally requires one comunicate with the youngster or Baby in his ters, for him to now one wishe to feed him, and, for him to adjust to this method.

The Nipple is usually held tilted to them, and at about their Crop's height or so.


Adult Pigeons who have eperienced sever trauma will sometimes revert to 'Baby' ways, and with the correct gestures of invitation, will 'squeak', shoulder-pump, and eat formula from the Nipple, just as any actual Baby or juvenile or adolescent would.


This is helpful in situations where the injured adult is not otherwise eating, forgot how, and will benifit in his moralle to be recognised and understood as having for now reverted 'back' to Baby ways...and to be coforted and assured in 'Baby' ways.


Usually this phase passes in a few days and the adult will then remember how to peck and resume self-feeding, and then refuse the 'Nipple' when offered.


Pigeons with injured or dislocated or broken Jaws, once feeling accepted, safe, and comforted, will sometimes find eating from the Nipple to be very welcome, whether thin 'formula' which they only 'sip', or tiny whole Seeds in Water or in a slurry of formula which they can eat with only opening their Beaks a tiny bit, and this helps solve the problem then of how to feed them, since they can not peck, and, one dare not pry or urge their Beaks 'open' for putting Seeds or a Tube in there.


Anyway, once one can realize some understanding of the various features and advantages, there are many options and variations with this which are useful for differing situations, as well as for just about any 'Baby' or youngster Pigeon or Dove who wishes to eat.



Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well Phil, I appreciate the time taken to explain this method. Wish I had known about it when mine were so young. If it comes up again, I now have yet another method to try. I have seen babies eat from the syringe, cut at the bottom, and a balloon or bandage put on the end with a rubber band. That works also. When I fed mine, I came from behind, and clasped their beaks on each side. They would open up for me. Never had to pry the beak open. Maybe it was the feeling something on each side of the beak that helped. It also gave me some control over their movement. I had never heard of the nipple method. Thanks for explaining.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

What are probiotics, and where would I find them? 

Also, you said at 5 or 6 days old I could start giving him seeds soaked in water. What kind of seeds? 

Thanks so much everyone! You guys have been a lifesaver (for him)!!!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jay3,


When they eat from their parent's Throat, they 'feel' whatever that feels like to their own soft and sensitive Beak.


Possibly there is a genetically disposed anticipation to feel it also, whether or not an individual has even been fed by his or her Pigeon parent.


So, when we wish to feed an infant, juvenile or adolescent, having various ways of stimulating that tactile sensation ( softly 'massaging' their Beak with warm-moist finger tips ) and or of also providing it while he or she is eating ( the Nipple being gently pinhed to press softly against the sides of their Beak) , can be very helpful for their being willing to go along with it...or to feel atually very enthused and accepting about it.


One can observe trends or generalities in the responses and particulars of Pigeon Babys, and this will not mean that every one will oblige as others have, in every detail.


I have never had any two week old or younger Pigeon Babys who did not gladly eat from the Nipple, given that I also have various gestures and ways of inviting them, which are often crucial if they are to eat of their own volition.

Older ones, fledgling age ones especially, can be much more difficult or dicey to win over, for them to accept and willingly participate in allowing one to feed them from the Nipple or via 'Seed Pops' or 'Gobbles' in the Shot Glass and so on.


I have had many roughly two week old ones, who withing fifteen minutes of being here, were sucessfully peking small Seeds with my guidance and supervision, which is a big help to me then, since they can both self-feed with supervision, and, be 'Baby-Fed' concurrently, rather than to rely on 'Baby-Feeds' exclusively.


They also are very good at showing eachother how to 'peck' ( Better than having older Birds 'show' them) , when I have a few who can, and new ones who do not yet know how, where merely putting them together, with some Seeds in a little Bowl, with me 'peking' also even, the new arrive ones can end up pecking very quickly.


I have never had, and never seen, a 'weaning problem'...



Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Well Piggie is definitely growing, and he's definitely a pigeon! His feathers are starting to grow in, and they're a beautiful gray. He's doing fabulous with the nipple feeding. I'm about to bump him up to a larger nipple, because he keeps knocking all the food out of the small one because he's so enthusiastic. It's great. He's getting a lot surer on his feet, so we're about to move on to a small animal carrier until we get a bird cage. He's getting a lot better at regulating his own body temperature. So far everything is going well! 

Will regular bird seed work to feed him? Or do I need special seed? Also, what are probiotics?


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Here are some pictures so you can see how big he's gotten!!! It's so weird seeing him with feathers!




























As you can see in the last picture, he's really learning how to use those wings. Every time we go into the bathroom, he starts chirping. As soon as I pick him up, he looks everywhere to find that food! He knows I have it somewhere!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Well Piggie is definitely growing, and he's definitely a pigeon! His feathers are starting to grow in, and they're a beautiful gray. He's doing fabulous with the nipple feeding. I'm about to bump him up to a larger nipple, because he keeps knocking all the food out of the small one because he's so enthusiastic. It's great. He's getting a lot surer on his feet, so we're about to move on to a small animal carrier until we get a bird cage. He's getting a lot better at regulating his own body temperature. So far everything is going well!
> 
> Will regular bird seed work to feed him? Or do I need special seed? Also, what are probiotics?


Great to hear that Piggie is doing so good! We'll take another picture any time (_hint hint [/SIZE]_; By regular bird seed, you mean wild bird seed? That's "ok".......but if you could find a pigeon/dove mix, it would be better. If not, you could add safflower seed, lentils, popcorn (plain, unpopped). Everyone says you can feed them thawed peas and corn too. I've never tried it, but don't see why they wouldn't eat it. I've got over 100 birds, so buying frozen veggies is out. 
The probiotics just helps keep their gut flora in check. You can get it at the health food stores. Don't know any brand names........someone else maybe can help with that.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OOPS........I see you posted pictures while I was posting...........he's a cutie....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Could you take another couple of pictures without holding him? I think they are blurry because he's too close to the camera. Maybe it's nothing, but his head (the top/back) of it looks funny to me............still not totally convinced he's a pigeon...........


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I'll try taking another couple pictures as soon as my battery charges. My hubby keeps telling me he's a crow! I thought all doves were white? So as soon as I saw those gray feathers I figured he was a pigeon!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> I'll try taking another couple pictures as soon as my battery charges. My hubby keeps telling me he's a crow! I thought all doves were white? So as soon as I saw those gray feathers I figured he was a pigeon!


Oh no.....doves (wild doves), like mourning doves are not white. Domesticated doves are, or can be white............I'm not "up" on doves.........pigeons on the other hand can come in many many varied colors.........oh, and by the way......whatever he is, he ain't a crow


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Well thank goodness he isn't a crow! We have crows here in Fort Worth that are not shy at all! Parking lots are absolutely infested, and they sit on our cars and squawk at us as we're trying to get in our car!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> What are probiotics, and where would I find them?
> 
> Also, you said at 5 or 6 days old I could start giving him seeds soaked in water. What kind of seeds?
> 
> Thanks so much everyone! You guys have been a lifesaver (for him)!!!!



Hi MrsM,



What I usually do is grind ( 60/40 ) fresh Seeds and Gogi-Berrys in a little clean Coffee Grinder, and that is then mixed 50/50 with the 'powder' formula.

Now, or soon, age-wise to yours, I might start adding tiny whole Seeds such as Canary Seed or Finch Seed, and a little pinch of fine Grit such as Canary Grit or Parakeet Grit, or any fairly fine Grit is fine.


So to the formula, you can just add small whole Seeds, so they are maybe 15 percent of the bulk...or just use the fresh 'ground' home made Seed and Berry 'powder' for a few days, then graduate to adding the tiny whole Seeds being added as well, to the formula.


Parent Pigeons feed Crop Milk exclusively for the first five days or so...then the meals consist of likely a tapering off of Crop Milk with increasing proportions of Seeds which are 'wet', or, 'Seeds in Water', or, pretty well just plain Water now and then.


But since we get into formula making or formula feeding, it makes sense to stay with that, and, to just start adding tiny whole Seeds to it at some point.


Possibly the next size 'up' in Nipple modifications would be in order around now, or soon anyway.


Malto Meal ( the plain one, just as it comes from the Box, not 'cooked' ) is nice to add...or, powdered 'Malt' if you can get it ( Oriental Markets or Health Food Stores ) since Pigeon and Dove Babys like the Malt flavor.


For that matter, plain 'Malto Meal' is so close to 'K-T' Nutritionally, one could just use it in a pinch, and if one has a little Coffee Grinder, one can of course make fresh true Seed 'meal' or coarse raw 'Seed Flower' very easily, and add whatever one wants to it.

Fresh true Seed meal does not tend to solidify into a 'slug' or become recalsitrant in their Crop the way plain 'K-T' can.


Water ( 'tepid' Water ) should be offered of course, betwen meals.


'Nutrical' is nice to add for any age who are having 'formula', and it is on the Kitten-Puppy Isle of any Petsmart, comes in a 'tube' and is a dark brown 'goo' which dissolves ( if with much stirring ) in the formula.


I would suggest that no 'microwave' be used for anything or any phase of their foods.


Instead, add ingredients 'cold', in a small Cup or Glass, add enough Water to cover the with some to spare, refrigerate covered for an hour, or overnight, and then, while stirring in a pan of warm water, add whatever additional Water is needed to arrive at the consistancy one wishes.


When people make and feed formulas they only just mixed, there is no way for the formula to be adequately hydrated, and it tend then to thicken in the Crop and can have problems then, even becoing resistant to absorbing Water which the Baby does drink.

So the betterthe formula is hydrated to begin with, the better it will behave after the Baby eats it.



"Pro-Biotics" are various icro-organisms which represent the natural flora or fauna of one's digestive system.

'K-T' contains pro-biotics, and, all Seeds or other foods which have ben exposed to the air, will also, since many oft hese organisms are present in the Air and always settling on everything.


One can get sall Bottles of 'pro-biotics' from Pigeon supply places, or, fro any Health Food Store.



Small containers of Digestive enzymes are also nice to add sometimes, though usually for the frail or convelesent rather than for a noral healthy Baby, and these also can be had of any Health Food Store.


"Uno's Choice" isthe brand for both which I have kept on hand.



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 



I just got caught up on further posts...


He still looks dehydrated to me...

Make sure you are offering tepid Water off and on between meals.



Not-a-Crow...



Where are you located?


Looks like a Baby Pigeon to me.


Doves ( so to speak ) would tend to have much smaller narrower Beaks...and would be smaller all round, also.




Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I'm located in Fort Worth, Texas.

I'll start offering more water, but usually he takes a drink and realizes it isn't formula and refuses any more.

I'm also on my way to PetSmart in search of seeds!


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Also, I'll be buying a bird cage at some point soon. What features should I look for? Size?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM,




I was born in Fort Worth myself..!



Water has to be "tepid" or he will refuse it.


No reason to have a Cage unless you have pets who would be a danger to him.


Baby Pigeons are very good at staying in what they construe to be the 'Nest'.


Simply take a Pie Pan or shallow Cake Pan, but nothing bigger, put a soft folded-rumpled cloth in it for him to have a soft place to lay...

He will know to poop over the edge of this, and, he will stay put.


Set THIS into roughly one foot by one foot by one foot Cardboard Box, sitting on it's side, so that it has an open front, with the 'flaps' open, and drape the whole with a light cloth so it has an entrance.


Untill he is endothemic, have a Heating Pad under a Towel, on which his 'Nest' proper can sit...and try and 'tune' the adjustent or setting, along with how any payers of Towell are over it...so that if you press the underside of your wrist into the Nest where the Baby will be, for that spot ( for a 30 second wrist-press, ) to feel j-u-s-t a tiny bit warmer than your own Body temp.


Here are a few images showing the arrange -



http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1512126414067835264CbMauc


Table high or elbow high is fine...but no lower...and if on a table, have a towll over the whole table with the box on that, and he will fine with this from now till when is fledges.



Phil
l v


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Also, I'll be buying a bird cage at some point soon. What features should I look for? Size?


Longer, wider, as opposed to taller. Pigeons don't climb around in a cage like most birds. He needs to be able to stretch/flap his wings without hitting the sides after he's grown to full size.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Haha I do have pets who would be a danger to him. Two dogs who just _love_ to chase birds! Usually they're okay with any animal they've been acclimated to though. I'm hoping after seeing him being held by me so long, they won't be tempted to mess with a cage. They grew up with pet rats, so like I said, they're fine as long as it doesn't seem "new". 

I went to PetSmart, and they told me that doves eat finch food. So I got two things of finch seeds, one with fruit and berries and one supposedly nutritional. I also got a vitamin additive. I plan on mixing up a big batch of this, enough to last me all week, and just taking enough out to heat for each meal. It won't spoil in five days, will it? 

Tepid is lukewarm, right? That's the temperature I've been giving him, and he's just not interested. I'll keep trying, though. Hopefully soaking his food overnight will help with the dehydration. I haven't been doing that. 

Seriously, thanks for everything everyone! This place has been amazing!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> Haha I do have pets who would be a danger to him. Two dogs who just _love_ to chase birds! Usually they're okay with any animal they've been acclimated to though. I'm hoping after seeing him being held by me so long, they won't be tempted to mess with a cage. They grew up with pet rats, so like I said, they're fine as long as it doesn't seem "new".



Hi MrsM, 



This is going to be a problem then as he grows and needs to be exercising and exploring and climbing and furthering his skills and co-ordinations and gaining in strength toward flying.


If you have to have him in a Cage, still have a 'Nest' which he can define and construe so he knows where to poop ( ie: he will wish to poop over the edge of what he contrues to be the 'Nest' proper...)




> I went to PetSmart, and they told me that doves eat finch food. So I got two things of finch seeds, one with fruit and berries and one supposedly nutritional. I also got a vitamin additive. I plan on mixing up a big batch of this, enough to last me all week, and just taking enough out to heat for each meal. It won't spoil in five days, will it?



I do not know what these things are.


Are they Whole Small "Seeds"?

Or some 'pellet' stuff..?


Anything in these regards if mixed with Water, will 'spoil' fast...


And or, I can not tell by your description, what you are talking about with these 'foods'.


"Small Whole Seeds" of the kinds used for Finches or Canarys would be fine.


Artificially colored and Flavored stuff that looks like kids breakfast cereal 'pellets' is another matter, and probably is alright, but it is not 'Seeds'





> Tepid is lukewarm, right? That's the temperature I've been giving him, and he's just not interested. I'll keep trying, though. Hopefully soaking his food overnight will help with the dehydration. I haven't been doing that.




In Nature, when the Parent Pigeon gives Water to the Baby, the Water is just a little less than tha parent's Body Teperature, for having been kept in the parent's Crop.


Hence, the Baby expects Water ( or any liquid foods, ) to be about what Body Temperature is for a grown Pigeon, or just a little less.


"Tepid" in this context lets say, means about your own Body Temperature...but not less,or he will refuse it.




> Seriously, thanks for everything everyone! This place has been amazing!




Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

MrsM said:


> Well thank goodness he isn't a crow!



HEY, HEY, HEY.......Corvids ROCK !!!!I love corvids, they're awesome.

MrsM...amazing ! You are doing a great job...what a little sweetie. Keep it up. 

BTW...I dunno....I am not 100% convinced on pigeon quite yet.....hmmmmm....here's a mourning dove baby, again:

http://images.townnews.com/gvnews.com/content/articles/2008/04/05/news/news11.jpg


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi MrsM, 

I just wanted to congratulate you thus far on a job VERY WELL DONE! Considering the circumstances that you "received" this young bird, you've done a remarkable job in caring for it.

My only comments thus far are: it's NOT a crow or corvid of any type as your husband was guessing. The other members here have understood this as well.

I would agree with Terry, Renee and the others who have guessed that this is a dove of some sort/species/type. It's just too small to be a pigeon and even in your neck of the woods. I know there are different types/species of doves in Texas so to me, this is definitely a dove of some kind.

It DOES look like it's growing slowly and it's still quite small for it's age. I wonder as well about it's bald head and no feathers growing there. Still, it seems healthy enough, but it's impossible to know what all is going on with it. The earlier you can get it self feeding and eating seeds on it's own, the better it will do. It's obvious that you're way past the "danger zone" of feeding a wild pigeon/dove and hopefully this bird will continue to thrive and until you decide what you're going to do with it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad,



Yahhhhh, you right, his shape and coloring and so on do seem very "Dove" -like...



Maybe not Mourning Dove, but some sort of Grey Dove kind...



Care and feed and Nest and so on, would all be the same as for a Baby Pigeon of course...just so MrsM does not think anything needs to be different.



Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

The finch food I got is called Lafeber's Premium Daily Diet for Finches. It says crude protein not less than 14%, crude fat not less than 4%, crude fiber not less than 2%, and moisture no more than 10.5%. Ingredients are ground corn, wheat, oat groats, soybean meal, cane molasses, dried whole egg, corn gluten meal, and a lot of other unpronounceables. Now that I look closer, it's not seeds. The fruit one is seeds though. It says crude protein at least 13%, crude fat at least 9%, crude fiber no more than 10%, and moisture no more than 12%. It contains white millet, canary grass seed, niger seed, small yellow millet, oat groats, red millet, rape seed, balcium carbonate, puffed amaranth, flax seed, rice, papaya, coconut, pineapple, corn grits, mango, and lots more stuff. I mixed it about 70% formula, 20% daily diet, and 10% fruit. He seems to like it, but not when it's runny. The thicker the better he eats it. I have been giving him about six or seven drops of water after every meal. I don't know how much he's actually drinking and how much is falling by the wayside. 

I agree that he's probably small for his age. It feels like he's maturing faster than he's growing, if that makes sense. He's growing lots of feathers and eating a lot better, but just doesn't seem to be growing all that quickly. But I guess I'm just thanking my lucky stars that he's still here in the first place. 

I don't see exercising and getting out of the cage being a problem. My dogs typically spend an hour or so outside a day, so he can play around the house while they're outside. I think as soon as he doesn't need the heating pad anymore I'm going to move him to a cage. How old are they when they can be moved off the heating pad?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM,



Thats sounds alright...


Babys need lots of Water, and he is likely not far ( well, another week maybe or less, ) from being able to drink if guided to do so...so meanwhile, I'd say just offer Water as you have been, a couple or three times even , between meals or before bed...so his little Crop is always nice and 'squishy'.


If he's pooping water, then I suppose one could back off a little...


Lol...


Parent's Bodys are 'humid'...so when they are sitting their Babys, the babys are always being humidified.

So maybe keep a folded wet cloth close to him so he can get a little of that by being near it.

You can add a little fresh, "new" Bottle ( not one which had been opened weeks or months ago ) Olive Oil to his food, and that is good for them in lots of ways, and also helps their Skin and Feathers.


Post more pics..!


You can never post TOO many 'Baby Pics' here you know...we all love 'em..!





Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Well, Piggy's still doing well! He's officially 2 weeks old today! He's still mostly bald, but his wings are fully covered with feathers and he has a little stripe of gray fuzz down his back. It seems like every day a new feather or piece of fuzz appears. This morning there was no fuzz on his neck at all, just some prickles where it should be, and when I came home for lunch it had become fuzz. I'd take a picture, but I misplaced the battery to my camera. Hopefully it'll turn up soon! 

I'm mixing his food about half finch food, 3/8 formula, and 1/8 fruit seed mix. We've worked up to about the consistency of yogurt, but obviously it isn't smooth like yogurt because of the seeds and the food doesn't smooth out either, it stays a little defined. He seems to be enjoying it. 

He wasn't happy with me at all tonight. His beak is still really short, and can't reach the very end of the nipple, and I was getting tired of him making such a mess with his food, so I decided to do something else. I took a soda bottle cap and filled it with his food. I thought if I could get him to eat with that, he might start eating by himself a lot sooner than he would if I stuck with the nipple. He had other ideas. He definitely has an angry squawk sometimes, and tonight he was using it. I guess I'll have to wait a while longer before I move on from the nipple. At 2 weeks should he be able to reach the end of the nipple? Or be closer to feeding himself? 

He's doing a lot better with the water. I think at first he thought he was going to have to go back to eating his formula like that, and that's why he wouldn't drink it. I guess now he realized that it's not replacing his food. I can get him to drink at least 5 drops each time now. I usually get him to drink the most right before a meal. Right after he's way too eager to get back to his warm nest, and in between meals he thinks he should be getting food.

Well, as soon as I find that battery I'll be posting more pics!


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

One thing kinda bothering me now, since I've been looking at pictures of pigeons and mourning doves, is his feathers. Yeah, his wings are covered, but all the pictures show that he should have at least something on his head. And his head is absolutely bald. Nothing there. Nothing on his chest, either. A couple pieces on his neck, but those just came in today. Is he just a late bloomer? What can I do to make sure that he'll eventually grow feathers everywhere?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> One thing kinda bothering me now, since I've been looking at pictures of pigeons and mourning doves, is his feathers. Yeah, his wings are covered, but all the pictures show that he should have at least something on his head. And his head is absolutely bald. Nothing there. Nothing on his chest, either. A couple pieces on his neck, but those just came in today. Is he just a late bloomer? What can I do to make sure that he'll eventually grow feathers everywhere?



Hi MrsM,


Huh...


It kinda sounds like he has not been getting enough to eat.


Now, I know you have been feeding him often, but, it might need to be a little more per meal, or, more meals...


If he likes his formula not-runny, then definitely lots more Water between meals.



What was the provenance? I forgot..



Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

What is provenance?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> It DOES look like it's growing slowly and it's still quite small for it's age. I wonder as well about it's bald head and no feathers growing there. Still, it seems healthy enough, but it's impossible to know what all is going on with it. The earlier you can get it self feeding and eating seeds on it's own, the better it will do. It's obvious that you're way past the "danger zone" of feeding a wild pigeon/dove and hopefully this bird will continue to thrive and until you decide what you're going to do with it.


MrsM...can you post another up-to-date pic ?

I wouldn't be alarmed yet at her pace of development. This, of course, providing she is still pooping alright, eating alright, alert and active.

Keep in mind, you found it on the ground and my recollection is that you said, it was covered w/ insects. So she was on her way out. Given thos conditions, it is kinda likely that this lil' birdie will remain sorta runty....no ? It may well be, honestly, that the lil' birdie will have a slow developing system now. Also would agree you can amp up the food a little bit. I have had great results with something called Nutri-Stat (amazon.com) which is a hi-caloric additive which works very well on birds who need some quick weight-gain. Our avian vet here suggests it in such instances.

Also am wondering...just putting these Q's out there for anyone here to respond to :

1) given her condition when found...might it be worthwhile (and safe) to try a course of a wide-net antibiotic, such as cipro ? I think of this only because she was found in very unsanitary conditions when her immune system could hardly have even been developing much...it may well be she is fighting something in there....

2) if we are concerned about growth/development/nutrition...isn't it better to keep her on handfeeding longer than usual...as opposed to being too concerned about moving towards weening ?

Just some thoughts.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Jaye said:


> Also am wondering...just putting these Q's out there for anyone here to respond to :
> 
> 1) given her condition when found...might it be worthwhile (and safe) to try a course of a wide-net antibiotic, such as cipro ? I think of this only because she was found in very unsanitary conditions when her immune system could hardly have even been developing much...it may well be she is fighting something in there....
> 
> ...


I too would like to see some clear up to date pictures. I wouldn't PUSH the bird to wean off the formula, but I would certainly start introducing it to seeds in a few more days. If it learned to eat it could still be fed formula as well as seeds. 
As far as the anitbiotic.........poop pictures would be good too. I'm afraid I'm one of those that doesn't like to give anything unless it's deemed necessary. I don't like to medicate "just in case" unless there's a reason to be concerned, ie....dog, cat, or hawk caught....or "poopy" looking poops......As I recall, the baby was found on a sidewalk...........not that unsanitary I don't think and at it's age, I doubt seriously it had been there very long.......it would have died otherwise. 
So..........MrsM......we need pictures dear..........


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> What is provenance?




Hi MrsM,



His origins...


Where did he come from...who were his parents, and so on.


I could go back and read of course ( Lol ) just could not remember...



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> I too would like to see some clear up to date pictures. I wouldn't PUSH the bird to wean off the formula, but I would certainly start introducing it to seeds in a few more days. If it learned to eat it could still be fed formula as well as seeds.
> As far as the anitbiotic.........poop pictures would be good too. I'm afraid I'm one of those that doesn't like to give anything unless it's deemed necessary. I don't like to medicate "just in case" unless there's a reason to be concerned, ie....dog, cat, or hawk caught....or "poopy" looking poops......As I recall, the baby was found on a sidewalk...........not that unsanitary I don't think and at it's age, I doubt seriously it had been there very long.......it would have died otherwise.
> So..........MrsM......we need pictures dear..........




Hi Lovebirds, MrsM, Jaye, 



Oh yeahhh, I agree Lovebirds...this seemed every-inch a healthy Baby to me.


I have felt a little concerned about the Baby being adequately hydrated, since Babys need a lot more Water than one would suppose...and it can be a little tricky with soe individual Babys to keep the hydration 'up'.


Margainal dehydration would 'slow' digestive processes, slow the Crop's emptying, and slow the rate at which the Baby is able to process food, and hence, would occasion less food being processed or fed to them.

This possibly could be what is going on, and, would or could result in a slow rate of developement.


Otherwise, seems a healthy Baby to me..!


And a heck of a good sport and devoted, tireless 'Momma' too..!



Phil
l v


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi MrsM,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think she knows where it came from. It was found on a side walk. That's it. As tiny as it was (a couple of days old at best) it MUST have fallen out of a tree.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi LB...I see what you are saying..but just recall, my antibiotics thought wasn't just 'cuz she was found on sidewalk...but because she was being overrun w/ ants when MrsM made the save.....

yeah, pdp....I always like to keep my fids very slippery (well-hydrated) during handfeeding, etc.....a tad extra hydration never can hurt....and it certainly does help emptying the crop.....


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Okay new pictures! He was very unhappy about being put down and not being fed, so it was hard to get some good shots. 


























He's doing pretty well, the only reason I was wanting him to move on to self-feeding is so he could eat more often. It's hard to make sure he's eating often enough with work and everything. 

Poops are good. He seems to time them so that he can poop on me every time I pick him up! Nice and green, I guess. He's also started peeing? A couple times I've picked him up and thought he pooped on me but no, just liquid.

He's getting some peach fuzzy type white feathers on his underside, and some gray ones on the back of his head. Hopefully the rest will grow in someday. I bought some liquid vitamins and have been putting that in with his water. I can get him to drink about half a dropper full before a meal. Usually he gets mad that it's not his food, though. And afterward is impossible. He's really lethargic after meals. He doesn't want to do anything but sleep.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's usually what they do after eating. At least, I know after eating my little ones were full and satisfied, and just snuggled up together to nap and digest their meal. He's so cute.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Okay new pictures! He was very unhappy about being put down and not being fed, so it was hard to get some good shots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Any one have more ideas about what this cute little bugger is? STILL don't think pigeon................Is he poop firm, liquidy, a little of both? The liquid might be something to be concerned about...........does he do that often or just after eating/drinking?


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

His poo is a combination of both. Most of them are completely firm, green, bird poos. But some are firm green bird poo surrounded by clear liquid. And then, like I said, the pees. I'm not entirely certain if they're all after he's drank some water, because during the day he's in his carrier and I don't see his poos and pees until later.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Doesn't look quite like mine did. Don't know why. You think maybe dove? Mine were never bald. They had many pin feathers on their heads, and the feathers just kinda grew through them. You could still see the little pin feathers sticking up through the feathers. Here's mine.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

yea, I'm still going with a dove, ..............MrsM.........lets keep a watch on those poopys.........maybe it's nothing or it could be something......we'll get the EXPERTS in on it if need be..........He sure is cute. Would love to give him a tiny squeeze..............


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 



Post some images of the typical 'poops' if you could, close ups, if possible?


I would say this is a 'Pigeon' and not a 'Dove'...but, she is a little odd...


Lovely, yes!...but also a little 'odd'.


Possibly there is a health issue, but I do not now quite what it would be.


Poops, for normal healthy Babys, tend to be 'Tan-Brown' with 'White' Urates.


Now, maybe there is somehting effecting her Kidneys' function, or, her Intestines' functions, or both.


The liquid you are seeing, might not be 'pee', but, rather, something in the way of a diarrhea or failure to reclaim Water in the intestines' latter phases.
They WILL 'dump' Water if excited or frieghtened, and Babys do get 'excited' easily, so...if it only happens when you pick her up, it is probably nothing, and just an 'excitement' thing...but, if she is doing this other times and at liesure, then it may be an indication of a problem.


By this age, I would not expect 'lethargy' after eating...or, usually, they tend to be pretty wound up even when stuffed to the gills, and require to be left alone or put into 'Hand Nest' and snuggled - even to being covered with a hand TO calm the down - with to get them calmed down for them to sleep...and, usually they wake easily and are all wound up again, even if it is only because they realize one is looking at them..!


So...somehting seems a little 'off' here...


What kind of 'green' have the poops been, and what has been their shape/conststancy?

Is she making her own Body Heat well? Is she a little 'furnace' when in your palm?



I have one presently who fell out of the ceiling, and I do not know which 'cell' between the jiusts she fell out of to put her back, but, regardless, I could post some iages for comparison, since this one is about the same age as yours.

Lastly, what has her diet been? ( ingredients? ) 


And, does she stand and 'Nuzzle' and 'peep' assertively for being fed?



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Doesn't look quite like mine did. Don't know why. You think maybe dove? Mine were never bald. They had many pin feathers on their heads, and the feathers just kinda grew through them. You could still see the little pin feathers sticking up through the feathers. Here's mine.



Dove? Pigeon? I don't know.........I keep looking and thinking "maybe it IS a pigeon and is just a little behind" and then I look again and think, "naw, that's not a pigeon......it's some sort of dove"..............notice his tail? or lack of? With the feathers on the wings, there should be tail feathers AND feathers on the head. He's got a little balding going on around the face too..........
The little guy was found on 28 June and looks to be around 3 days old in that picture, so he's around 18 to 19 days old.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

His diet is still the same, formula with finch food and seeds mixed in. He's eating really well. I don't know if he pees at other times or not, I just notice it when I pick him up.

I don't really know about the consistency of his poops...they just look like normal bird poops to me. Some are tan, but others are dark green. 

He gets really wound up except for right after he's eaten. As soon as he knows someone is in the room with him he starts peeping. And when I pick him up, he automatically think it's meal time and starts looking everywhere for the food. Yes, he nuzzles too. He's only lethargic after meals. Other times he's pretty active, I think.

I won't be able to get a close-up of his poops. Downright impossible with my camera. I'll try to a picture of them, though. 

No, he's not producing his own body heat hardly at all. I keep waiting for him to start, but he cools down pretty quickly as soon as he's off the heating pad.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM,




He ( she? Lol...) should be a very definite 'Little Furnace' by now...so...hmmmmm...


Can you look deep into his Throat, under a strong light?


All should be 'pink' in there...let us know if it is otherwise, and or if you see any tan or yellowish or other 'things' in there?



Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

All is pink except for his black little tongue. I'd never seen his tongue before. It's kinda cute


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)




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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Those don't look bad to me. Not "perfect", but not bad. Considering all this little guy has been through.............if it me taking care of and raising it, I wouldn't be concerned. Not based on that picture anyway.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 




The poops look way too small to me, looks more like 'dotting' then real 'poops' ( which should be the size of a smaller to medium 'Raisin' at this phase )...so the poops are too scant to my eye, for one of her present size-age-size...


Now, one thing you could try, is to 'feed' small whole Seeds ( Canary Seed, Finch Seed, ) into her 'Nuzzling-Gobbling' up-turned Beak, up-pointing Beak, which is something I do fairly often with youngsters.


Just make your hand into a sort of Shadow Puppet 'Duck' Head, only upside-down, so it is a trough for the Seeds to roll down in, and with your finger tips, and thumb tip, or finger tip 'pads' and thumb tip 
'pad, engauge her Beak so she inserts it and will be trying to 'gobble' ( opening and closing her Beak as if eating from her parent's Throat...)


This in addition to whatever else, feeding wise...and plenty of body teperature Water inbetween meals...


I think she needs to be eating more, more per meal, more meals..!


Best wishes you two..!


"Bon Appetite!"



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Yea, Phil is right. They are a bit small, but don't "look" bad, as in runny, or yellow, or stringy or any sort of "weird" thing we would look for.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Well they're definitely not raisin size! I'll try feeding the whole seeds. I thought I was supposed to soak them first. 

I'll try to fit in more meals, but I'm already feeding him pretty much whenever I can, usually four times per day. I don't want to feed him more per meal, because his crop does get pretty full, and I'm still really nervous about over-feeding him and running into problems there, like the stretched crop.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree that the poops don't look alarming.

I think we should consider that what you have here is a little felle /'gurl....she/he is probably gonna be a runt and on the small end of the growth chart due to her very rough start in life. So her growth curve will probably be somewhat below average. 

From what you describe, he sounds like he is very alert and aware and active and hungry and all....so, all in all, maybe a bit more food and a bit more hydration...but other than that.....

you are doing very well by him....


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Thank you  

I'm doing what I feel I can, but feeding him every 2 or 3 hours is just not in the cards for me. Not if Piggy wants to still have a roof over his (and my) head!

I'm going to order some of that high-calorie additive tomorrow. I guess the vitamins aren't doing enough. Should I get the broad antibiotic, too? I saw it at PetSmart today and thought about getting some.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM,



There are so many possible vagueries in feeding, it is not easy to really cover all the details in these posts, in order to evaluate, oversee or review anyone's given regimen.


Post an image of what he ends up with for a 'Full Crop' when you do feed, and let us see if we feel there is in fact room for more.


Also, is your 'KT' a new container? Bought very recently, and is it being kept in the refigerator?

It will spoil and become rancid once opened, over time, whether refrigerated or not...due to air getting in it.



Best not to "pre-soak" Seeds...the Baby's Crop is intended to do this, and does it well...so, plain, tiny, whole Seeds, both added to the formula, and, fed by the fingers as I sort of tried to describe, or with 'Shot Glass Gobble', are best.


If you would like me to try and describe better, let me know...either of these is an easy method and they like it.


Do it over a towel, have the youngster on a Towel, so the ones which get spilled are easy to reclaim.


Formula Feeds, preceeded or followed by 'Seed Gobbles' ( either by guiding his Beak into a Shot Glass full of tiny whole Seeds, where you keep your finger pads ON his Beak as he eats, or by 'Upside-Down-Duck's-Head-fingers' he can 'gobble' out of, either way...


At this age, his Crop as itself, should be about 2/3rds the size of his Body when 'full'...


But, regardless, the poops tell-the-tale, as for whether they are getting enough to eat, or not...




Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

MrsM said:


> Thank you
> 
> I'm going to order some of that high-calorie additive tomorrow. I guess the vitamins aren't doing enough. Should I get the broad antibiotic, too? I saw it at PetSmart today and thought about getting some.


The nutri-stat is good stuff, if that's the one you're going with. Just a small squirt (maybe about a 1/2" drop, mixed in w/ the formula). Matter of fact, if you did that not even at every feeding, but just at one or two feedings a day...that's be about as good as adding an extra feeding per day...which I understand completely, is logistically impossible for you...

Jury is still out on the antibiotic....Lovebirds says "no" (with good reasoning)...I am still inclined towards "yes" for the reasons I described earlier.....

Wouldn't mind some others chiming in on that one....



_BTW ~ just saw the latest pics on the previous page...wow....cute ! His growth may be a little stunted, again due to his auspicious start in life...but he is looking pretty strong !!!!


_


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jaye, MrsM, all...




I can not recall personally ever having any 'Baby' on any Antibiotics.


If I have, I just do not remember right now, and, it would be highly unusual, so it is something I should remember, if it has happenned.



Canker Meds, "yes"...anti-yeast or anti-Candida meds or regimens, "yes", but none I ever had were ill with anything for which antibiotics were called for...as far as I can recall.


Granted, it could happen...and does happen, as with paratyphoid, which is a growth-stunter, so, hmmmm, it is worth brooding on for this situation, but, I dunno if the indications are clear enough here, to positively elect to use an antibiotic, say, for Paratyphoid.


My own impression, is that what is going on here, is a thus far history of being fed too little, and being insufficiently hydrated much of the time...and possibly not being quite warm enough to be thoroughly 'warm' ( ie: core temp of 103 - 105 F)


Whether paratyphoid could be an underlieing issue, wiser heads than mine would have to venture an opinion, since I have not dealt with that issue in Babys.


Babys are in effect, little Stomachs with 'Wings'...


I am used to this, but I have never really been cognizant of just how "Much" one would feed them, since I feed impirically, and usually, aftert he fashion of Pigeon parents, who keep the Baby 'stuffed' and 'topped off' 18 hours-a-day or so.


So when I try and think of how much one does or ought to feed them, I have no idea...just that one does feed them, so they are comfortably 'full', and then keeps them full by topping-off through out one's own waking hours.


But then again too, I do not use plain KT, and those who do fear to ever feed before the Crop is empty, since plain KT has so many potential dangers and liabilitys of how one prepares it, and how it behaves in the Crop...


Endless vagueries and tedious to assay in detail...



Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm not totally up to speed with this thread, so if I'm way off base .. somebody tell me! 

As to the antibiotics available at Petsmart .. I've never seen anything there aside from Ornacycline and Ornacycline Plus. If a bird has something serious going on, I don't think either of these is going to do much good, but I could be wrong. 

As to giving baby birds antibiotics .. there should be a huge number of old threads here from Alea who rescued Burt and Ali (I think those were the names of the babies). We had Ali (I think) on Baytril very, very big time because he was a paratyphoid baby and for a very long time. Both babies survived and lived to be at least young adults. 

Generally speaking, I wouldn't recommend big gun meds for little pigeons, but in the case of Ali, Baytril saved his life.

Terry


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

There's something wrong with Piggy. 

Yesterday I decided to try feeding him more, so I fed him three times in the morning before I went to work, and three times yesterday evening when I got home. He did fine until his last feeding at about 10:30. He wasn't walking around like he usually does, and wasn't peeping and going crazy getting to the food. And in the middle of feeding, he started acting very tired, like he was going to sleep in my hand, and panting like he was too hot. The food wasn't too hot, and he didn't feel too warm. 

Usually as soon as my alarm goes off in the mornings he's chirping and waiting to be fed. This morning it was at least ten minutes after my alarm went off before I heard a chirp. When I got him out to feed him, he wasn't flapping his wings in my hands and making it hard to hold him. He just sat there in my hand. Usually he fights me with the water before he eats, but he just kinda sat there today. And once again, in the middle of feeding, he acted like he was falling asleep and started panting. 

I actually have one theory, but I doubt it's right. I added the olive oil to yesterday's food and the day before. His feathers are actually greasy looking. Is it possibly that I added too much and his pores are clogged and he isn't getting enough oxygen? This morning I fed him just plain formula just in case it was something like that. 

Please help! Thanks!


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Here are the pictures of a full crop, taken night before last.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That crop looks way too full to me. I hope other members that have been actively involved in you thread will be around to give you some advise. Honestly. he doesn't look right to me. Also, I wouldn't give anymore olive oil.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The crop is bulging. It looks like he's getting too much food. You shouldn't be feeding him, unless the crop is empty, or nearly so. If for some reason, it isn't emptying, and you just keep giving him food, where's it gonna go? If you don't wait to see if it empties, how do you know if it actually is working properly? If the bird parents want to "top it off", and keep his crop full, that is different. We are not bird parents, and I think it is safer to wait til it empties, as that way, we actually know that it is working. And are far less likely to fill it too much. What was the reason for the olive oil? I must have missed that post. I wouldn't give him any more of it. He just doesn't look right.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Someone told me to mix in the olive oil on here. It must be a few pages back.

Also, I was told to feed him more at feedings. I thought I was feeding him enough before. I was also told to keep topping him off and that he only needed to let his crop empty once a day or so. 

He didn't start acting weird until I started trying to feed him more and I added the olive oil. So I'm going back to what I was doing. He may have been undersized, but at least he wasn't acting like this.

I went and bought some of those antibiotics they sell at PetSmart. I can't afford to take him to the vet, so hopefully these will work.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

No more food for the baby until the crop empties. Gently massage it and add a bit of baby apple sauce if the crop doesn't empty. 
Please... don't give any antibiotics at this point. Give the baby a chance to empty first. I'm more suspicious of canker than anything else.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

It's almost empty. I gave him a dropper full of water a few minutes ago, so it'll take a bit for that to empty, but the formula from this morning is almost gone.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I just googled canker. It does sound a bit like what he has. His poops are getting more like diarrhea. 

Is there anything else I can do for him? I have him on the heating pad. He's actually staying under the washcloth, which also worries me. He hates staying under the washcloth.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 



Yes, those images show his little Crop being much TOO full indeed..!


Probably about half that volume would be 'full-enough'...


Once he, and his Crop are larger, of course the volume his Crop can hold safely, will get larger also...but for now, those images show it being too full.


A couple drops merely, of Olive Oil ( but only if it is from a fresh Bottle, never if from a bottle which has sat opened on the shelf for any length of time ) is good to add to their formula...but, just a couple drops is all.


No harm if you added more, but, more would not be better nutritionally, since just a couple drops does all he needs it to do.


How old is he now?



Best wishes you two..!


Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

He's about two and a half weeks old. On Thursday it'll be three weeks since I found him.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. It's OK....don't panic. 

His crop emptied by itself...so that's VERY, VERY good news.

If he is still acting funny...belabored breathing, listless, odd...after another hour or so.....I would suggest getting him to an avian vet ASAP....today.

If his breathing has returned to normal, and if he is perking up a bit, keep an eye, and:

1) go back to your initial portions at feeding. Matter of fact, his next 2 feedings, cut back just a bit below the previous norm....maybe 10% less. Indeed, a number of folks here suggested a bit more food...but that apparently isn't a good idea. So go back to your previous portions.

2) stop the olive oil. Again, it may have been a worthy suggestion...but it's clearly not agreeing with him.

3) If returned to "normal", then just keep on his old schedule and be vigilant the next few days. 

We can all keep giving advice and suggestions on what to do; we can have a 2-day discussion on pros and cons....but if he is acting ill, we may not have such a luxury...as I have said before, this lil' fella may be a bit slow in developing and may not be as robust as usual for his age...

so the safest thing to do to to insure his health, IF HE HAS NOT BOUNCED BACK , is to get him in the hands of a professional, certified AVIAN vet.

Hopefully you have researched one in your area. If they are booked, tell them this is an emergency.

Again, don't become stressed. It may just have been an overfeeding...or he may be developing canker....or it may be that he has been harboring an infection in there which is now showing itself due to the stress of some overfeeding....

ALL of these things are treatable and recoverable, providing a pro has a look at him....

Keep us posted.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Jaye...

Please read MrsM's _last_ sentence in post #141...

MrsM...wishing your little one HEALING THOUGHTS and ALL THE BEST!

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> *What was the reason for the olive oil?* I must have missed that post. I wouldn't give him any more of it. He just doesn't look right.


In reference to the olive oil:
You can add a little fresh, "new" Bottle ( not one which had been opened weeks or months ago ) Olive Oil to his food, and that is good for them in lots of ways, and also helps their Skin and Feathers.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=299200&postcount=104




MrsM said:


> *Someone told me to mix in the olive oil on here.* *It must be a few pages back.*
> 
> Also, I was told to feed him more at feedings. I thought I was feeding him enough before.
> *I was also told to keep topping him off* and that he only needed to let his crop empty once a day or so.
> ...


This is in reference to the feeding issue:
I am used to this, but I have never really been cognizant of just how "Much" one would feed them, since I feed impirically, and usually, aftert he fashion of Pigeon parents, who keep the Baby 'stuffed' and 'topped off' 18 hours-a-day or so.

So when I try and think of how much one does or ought to feed them, I have no idea...just that one does feed them, so they are comfortably 'full', and then keeps them full by topping-off through out one's own waking hours
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=300903&postcount=135


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM...........I've been gone all day and just came in and was alerted to the new posts from today. How is that baby doing now? He does look WAY to full but it seems that was earlier today, so hopefully he's digested most of that and is better now. 
It seems like we may have one of those, ummm...(to many cooks in the kitchen???)...............
Please let us know how this little guy is doing...........there was some suggestion about Canker.......that may or may not be the case. I didn't suspect it at all up to now and I don't know if the pictures from today have anything to do with that concern............


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Based on the most recent photos, I'm pretty sure this is a Mourning Dove baby. If that is correct, then the crop capacity is WAY less than that of a pigeon of a like age. 

I think Renee has a point .. too many cooks .. and all of us with differing "recipes" (advice regarding the care and feeding of this little bird). Hopefully the crop has emptied and everybody is back on the same page with how much, how often, and what to be feeding. I would definitely give this little bird a nice warm bath to get the oily residue off and quickly and gently dry him off with a hairdryer set on low .. take care not to overheat/burn the little guy. 

An update would really be appreciated as I am now a bit concerned about the oil all over the bird and possible aspiration due to overfeeding.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

From July 13th.

I just wanted to re-post it since it was revelent and maybe got missed...



pdpbison said:


> Hi MrsM,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM, 



Hope you and Baby are feeling better today..!



Now, would you post an image for us, which shows him from above? Where, we can get a good look at his Head and Beak, as if looking from above?



If this is a Baby 'Dove', the poops would be more like the size of dried 'Currants' ( or half-a-Raisen ) than 'Raisens' owing to how Baby Doves are smaller.


None the less, the Poops s-h-o-u-l-d be more substantial than the 'dotting' which was shown on the Heating Pad in the image...so, lets see what we can figure out here...


Best wishes you two..!



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MrsM,




Okay...well, lets just sort of review a few things and see what we can figure out.


Little Baby is 19 days old now...



Are his Eyes 'Open'? Does he look around, see you, and so on?


Does he ambulate a little, like when he wants to poop? ( Ideally, a 'Nest' which for them is easily defined, allows them to tell where to poop...and, they prefer to poop over the edge of whatever they construe to be the 'Nest' proper. The image showing the 'dotting' on the Heating Pad, suggested there might be no clear 'Nest' for him to decide 'where' he is, or, where to poop outside of...)

Young Babys do not tend to walk or ambulate much, other than for when they wish to poop...and when wishing to poop, they walk a little, then point their little butt over the edge of the Nest.



The Images showing him and his Crop - the Liquid in his Crop appears to be possibly quite dilute. This is fine, as long as the food content over-a-day, is enough, since Babys do need a fair amount of Water, and, I had encouraged you to offer Water between meals so he would be definitely well hydrated.


Possibly, the images suggest that the water to food ratio may be a little heavy on the 'Water' side...


Have you been feeding tiny whole Seeds? ( in the formula, or as themselves 'dry'? ) 



And, when you hold him in your palm, is he at least AS 'warm' as your palm?

( Ideally, he should be 'just' a little warmer than your palm...so, if you are holding him, he feels slightly warmer to you than your own body temperature. )


If he has not been quite warm enough...not so chilled as to casue positive harm, but, just, not-quite-warm-enough, this could slow his system and digestions, and compromise his growth and development, while hovering above true peril or lethality...so, lets review that part too, on how 'warm' he has been.


Whether Dove or Pigeon, usually, he would have become endothermic by around what, ten days or nine? These Babys do indeed become 'Little Furnaces' in their own heat-making, and when held in one's palm, they are definitely a lot 'hotter' than one's own Body Temperature.


Pre-endothermic Babys ideally need to be in the same range, ( core teperature of 103 F say, ) and they usually need to be kept 'covered' in order for a heat source below them, to be able to have their whole body, or core body temperature to be warm-enough.


One can have a warm Heating Pad, but unless the Baby is covered ( or in a 'Peeper-Warm-House' for which I had posted that link ) the Baby can remain chilled or of not chilled, then remain too cool for their system to function correctly...even though the heating pad is 'warm'.


Have you just been keeping him on the blue Heating Pad itself? And not on a small towell over the Heating Pad, with a cover or enclose to keep the gentle abient heat 'in'?


Lets review these things, and see what we can figure out about them...



Best wishes..!



Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Okay just got home. My husband came home at two and gave him two droppers full of water and a bit of very watered down formula. He wouldn't eat the formula. When I got home I gave him a dropper full of water and tried to get him to take some more watered down formula but he won't really eat. 

He's still acting like he isn't getting enough air, kinda panting. Feathers are already starting to look a little less oily. 

He's kept on a heating pad with a towel bundled up for him to use as his nest. Whenever I put him in it, I put the towel over him, but he never stays under it for long. He poops all over the place, usually mostly on the heating pad and not on the towel. 

When I pick him up, he's usually about as warm as his surroundings. If he's been on the heating pad, he's as warm as the heating pad. If I've been holding him, he's as warm as me. If he's been walking around, he's getting chilled. 

His crop looked watery because I've been trying to give him lots and lots of water before meals and throughout the day. He ate his meals a lot better when they were thicker, but I thought it was better to make them runnier so he was well hydrated. 

He didn't like eating the seeds by themselves at all. I only got a couple in him. So I was mixing them in with the formula/finch food. Today he's strictly on formula.

His eyes were open and definitely seeing me. He could differentiate between me and my husband. Today I don't think he's really paying attention to much. 

I'm really worried. I'm not positive he's going to make it. He looks worse than he did when he was a day old.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please go back to what was working. Is the crop empty except for water at this point?
Do you have any baby applesauce?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I agree with Charis.........what ever you were doing before seemed to be working.......so go back to that. I don't think it's necessary to give him lots of water. With the water in the formula and a tiny little drink afterwards, he should be just fine. 
Could he be getting too hot on the heating pad? Usually at his age, they can self regulate, but he's so far behind where he should be.....I don't know. I guess you'll have to be the judge of that since you are there. 
I'm feeling totally useless to you about now..........I sure hope we can pull this little guy through......darn it...he's been through so much already and has come a long ways thanks to you. 
We're sure as heck pulling for him................


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*OKay - Time Out And Take A Deep Breath ..*

Please everyone, let's slow down a bit here in this thread. I think we have all given so much differing advice that has been confusing to MrsM and husband that we may well have just about killed this little bird with our good intentions.

I am not saying that what follows is the correct thing to do but offering it as yet another opinion. I think MrsM and husband have to use their instincts at this point to figure out what is going to work best for the little bird.

I am almost certain that the young bird was being drastically overfed during the past day or so and that way too much olive oil was included in those feedings. I believe that we are now facing a situation of crop stasis (slow crop/sour crop) and that we need to get that crop to completely empty before trying to feed formula again.

I believe that having given the bird water is good to help move things through the system, but at this point I think the little bird should just be kept warm and left alone for at least three to four hours at which point we need to see how much of the crop has emptied. If a good amount of whatever was in the crop has passed through the system, then it is time to give either a very small amount of apple cider vinegar water OR baking soda water OR some watered down baby applesauce .. not all three .. pick one and go with it. Each of these "treatments" will help to change the ph of the crop and hopefully get it moving again. If the crop is still chock full, then we will probably need to wait overnight and see what the situation is in the morning. I realize that the baby needs to eat, but if all we are doing is piling more food on top of food that has been sitting undigested, we aren't accomplishing anything good for the bird.

Once the crop has emptied then very small feedings of thin formula can be given gradually working up to a proper amount and proper consistency of formula.

So, that's my take on things .. 

The little bird does need to be kept warm regardless of what else is or isn't being done .. not hot, hot, hot .. but nice and warm.

If anyone wishes to post about what I have said, that is fine, but let's please not bombard the caretakers of this little bird with all sorts of things to do or not do. The caretakers need to try and sort through all the advice that has been given and really use their heads and their hearts to decide how to proceed.

MrsM .. where are you located? If you have posted this information, I apologize for not catching it. If you are near any of our members that are experienced with this type of thing, it might be really beneficial to have that person have a look at the little bird.

Please keep us posted and best of luck with this little one.

Terry


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I definitely don't think he's getting too hot. He doesn't feel warm enough for that to me.

His crop is emptying. It was empty this evening when I got home, and almost empty when I left for work. The only thing in it is water and a bit of really runny formula. The formula should be gone in at least thirty minutes, because he didn't eat very much. I don't think the food is staying in his crop. 

My husband just said that he was chirping a bit when he came home this afternoon to check on him. Not like he used to, but a bit.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MrsM said:


> I definitely don't think he's getting too hot. He doesn't feel warm enough for that to me.
> 
> His crop is emptying. It was empty this evening when I got home, and almost empty when I left for work. The only thing in it is water and a bit of really runny formula. The formula should be gone in at least thirty minutes, because he didn't eat very much. I don't think the food is staying in his crop.
> 
> My husband just said that he was chirping a bit when he came home this afternoon to check on him. Not like he used to, but a bit.



Well, that's a bit of good news anyway................


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Okie Dokie then! Thanks for the update MrsM .. it's a bit encouraging. I don't think we are out of the woods yet by a very long way, but things are sounding better.

What do you think you will do from here? If there is any way you could get to Roger's Wildlife with this little one in the morning, I think that would be a very good idea. If it is a Mourning Dove, they will have to keep the little bird as it is a protected species. If it is, in fact, a pigeon then they could at least give you some hands on/eyes on advice.

Continued good luck with the little one!

Terry

PS: Thanks to a brain blip and two PM's from helpful members .. I finally remembered that I did know your location and had already referred you to Roger's Wildlife.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well, Mrs. M....there is a fair amount of good news in your latest report.

The crop's emptying. So it's moving....so that's good.

His eyes are open.

He is vocalizing some.

Those are good things.

He may have aspirated a bit before.....dangerous, but recoverable.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> I definitely don't think he's getting too hot. He doesn't feel warm enough for that to me.
> 
> His crop is emptying. It was empty this evening when I got home, and almost empty when I left for work. The only thing in it is water and a bit of really runny formula. The formula should be gone in at least thirty minutes, because he didn't eat very much. I don't think the food is staying in his crop.
> 
> My husband just said that he was chirping a bit when he came home this afternoon to check on him. Not like he used to, but a bit.




Hi MrsM, 



Good to hear...


Just go 'back' to what was 'working' and stay with that for the time being.


Keep in touch of course...


Post pictures daily, if you can...



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

I think he must be aspirated, because he was doing a bit better until I gave him some formula. Now he's back to barely alive.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK, OK.

As we know....his energies go to digesting when he has eaten....so, keep an eye and see if he perks up again once his crop empties.

Question to the forum:

Should one lay off feeding an aspirated birdie...even though his crop is emptying OK ? 

I, personally, dunno the answer to that....

One this young needs some food...but does feeding become a slippery slope ???


Is that Rogers Wildlife place Terry mentioned near you ?????


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Roger's Wildlife ..*

is in Hutchins TX .. approx 40-45 miles from Ft. Worth.

http://www.rogerswildlife.org/contact.html

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> I think he must be aspirated, because he was doing a bit better until I gave him some formula. Now he's back to barely alive.




Hi MrsM,



'Aspiration' means getting foods or food-liquids or liquids into the Larynx or Trachea, or 'Wind Pipe', where, usually, in a Bird or anyone else, there is an immediate rejecting reaction, since the food or liquid is then getting into the Lungs or Breathing apparatis...


With Birds, if they have aspirated foods or liquids, they will tend to breathe with an open Beak.


Plain Water would tend to cause some discomfort, if probably little danger, and would clear out of it's own over a little while.


Foods or nutritive liquids, getting into the Trachea, will tend to support bacteria or molds, and to occasion a pneumonia or infection in the respiratory system...which also tends to see the Bird 'Beak breathing' and gasping for Air.


I hope this is not what happened.



Having an over-full Crop can probably cause labored Breathing in a Baby, since it is pressing against their innards so-to-speak, from the front there, and once the Crop goes down, the breathing then of course would return to normal.




Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

How is that sweet baby Piggy doing this morning, Mrs. M?

Cindy


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Piggy didn't make it through the night. 

Thanks for all the help, everyone. It was a valiant effort.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

MrsM said:


> Piggy didn't make it through the night.


I am so, so very sorry. 
My sincere condolences to you & your husband. 

*"Bless you sweet baby Piggy"*

Cindy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

MrsM, I'm so sorry. I know how hard you tried, and how much you cared.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I am so very sorry.


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## MrsM (Jun 28, 2008)

Thank you. It's hitting me pretty hard. I keep thinking I hear him chirping. Who knew something so small could weasel his way into my heart so much?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They sure do have a way of doing that. And they're sneaky. They do it when we're not lookin'.
Of course the fact that you have a good heart helps.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

MrsM - I am sooooo very sorry  Though I haven't posted (since I didn't have any advice) I've been following your story - my heart goes out to you and your husband. I know you did all that you could do for the little guy. He was blessed to have spent his life being loved by you. {{{comforting hugs}}}


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I too am very sorry to read this MrsM. You did your very best to give the little fella a fighting chance.

God bless.

Sue


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

The lil' birdie can rest now, in peace, and need not struggle any more.

MrsM...you did a good job. From the start of your post I think there was something unspoken here, which was this:

_To manage a save of a baby THAT young, and found in THAT condition; and bring it to fledgling age....is very, very, very hard to pull off...even for a very experienced bird person. It is the most difficult of conditions/situations.
_
I know this doesn't alleviate the sadness....but he could not have ended up with a better caregiver.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Mrs.M,

So very sorry for your loss. I have been following your story and know you did everything you could.

Thank you so much for all the love and care you gave this precious little bird.

Regards,
Louise


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MrsM said:


> Thank you. It's hitting me pretty hard. I keep thinking I hear him chirping. Who knew something so small could weasel his way into my heart so much?



Hi MrsM,



Yeah...



Just so you know, you were really great with how you hit the ground running, and were such a fast learner and such a good sport with all of it, and you pretty well were doing the impossible from the get-go with this.


Though rare, there can be birth defects or illness in Pigeon or Dove infants, and I am convinced your little one had one or the other...or both, but I could not puzzle out which.


No one of any experience would tend to be too eager to have Antibiotics given to infants, especially if a diagnosis is lacking, in order to decide which antibiotic to elect.


It was fantastic you did so well and kept him going for so long.


It hurts to lose them...especially if one has spent time feeding and fussing and everything else, our Bodys alone get to know them and their presence and connect in mysterious ways with them...let alone our conscious emotions and involves.




Phil
l v


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Oh no, MrsM, I am so sorry to hear the sad news!

I join my fellow members in sending my sincerest condolences with loving healing thoughts and hugs at this very sad time. 

We know how hard you tried and I know that Piggy "knew." 

With love and hugs

Shi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

With respect to Mrs.M & baby 'Piggy' I'm going to close this thread.

Cindy


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