# Basic Medications on hand....



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

hello everyone:

I heard Fred mention many times about having some basic medications on hand incase a pigeon would get sick, I live in canada so i would like to order some from the CU (incase my pet pigeon Tooty would get sick) http://www.execulink.com/~crpu/index1.html 
I don't know what to get for what so could someone please list the BASICS that i will need.

I would also like to get an antibiotic(please list the name) that is proper for treating a crop fungal infection(i get alot of pigeons with this disease and they usually die)

Thanks!!

Mary


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Mary, I would suggest that you give Dorothy at the CU office a call. Tell her your situation, and she can likely make some suggestions.

The medications up here do differ a bit by name from the ones in the U.S. And, the tablets that Fred suggests for canker isn't available up here, I don't think...but you could ask Dorothy if she knows anything about it.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks WhiteWingsCa!!
I will do that, but i would like if someone could suggest the names of the basic diseases and then i could find the medications from the CU.


Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Mary,
I hope everything is well with you.
Mary, Foys and Global mail medications to Canada. If you need the links, let me know.
I'm recommending 5 products:
1) Foys-Extoban D: an excellent non toxic dusting powder that should be used on every pigeon before it is brought into a home
2)Foys-Carnidazole: A generic Spartrix for canker. One pill should go down every bird you pick up.
3)Global: Appertex: a small pill to eliminate Coccidiosis. Same for each bird you bring in.
4)Global: Bayril. They come in 20mg tablets and should be given in 5mg pieces so cut them into quarters.
5)Either store-Ivermec, 1% solution-Never worm a bird under two months of age. Their livers cannot tolerate Ivermec. All other birds you bring in should be given 7 drops from a hyperdermic needle syringe or 3 drops from an eyedropper. More than that is dangerous to the systems.
I have recently been told that Global sells a three-in-one medicine that covers canker, coccidiosis and worming. I don't recommend it because I would be afraid of the wormer in young birds.
If you go down this path, don't forget to ask for catalogs.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
How do you know that your birds have crop fungal infections? Have they been diagnosed by a vet?
Crop fungal infections are not treated with bacterial antibiotics. The infection in the crop is usually yeast and a product like Nystatin would be needed. As a matter of fact, using a bacterial antibiotic will accelerate the growth of yeast cells.
Could you describe the symptoms of these birds and maybe we could try to help find out if this is really a fungal problem.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I found 2 pigeons(remember sweetpea in the previous posts)they were sick and they were puffed up and weak, dizzy and they didn't want to eat but drank ALOT of water,i took them to a wildlife centre and when i called them they told me they had crop fungal infection and they put them on antibiotics, so far both died....









Mary


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

By the way.....i thought i should get the medications in case my pet Tooty(the one i raised since she was 5 days old)would get sick. She is now a month old, active, eats on her own, and loves baths...







.

about the yeast infections, I just asked because i wanted to know what was the proper medication for the yeast infection (i couldn't understand why all the pigeons i took to the rehab died, it seems they weren't giving them the right stuff.)

Mary


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Fred's right--an antibiotic can encourage candida (yeast) growth, as can some steroids.

The yeast organisms are always present--in all of us--but are held at bay by a functioning auto-immune system. When that immune system is compromised, or shut down by antibiotics or steroids (that's why it's vital to finish the full course of antibiotic), the yeast cells are free to take over, and often will.

When giving antibiotics, as we are to baby Allex (our recent rescue), we add plain yogurt as a "probiotic" to the feeding formula, since digestive bacteria are destroyed by the antibiotic, e.g., Baytril, in this case.

A fungal infection should be treated with a topical or systemic fungicide--not an antibiotic!









With all respect, your rehab center personnel should study up on this stuff, or at the very least, join Pigeons.com! We would welcome them here.









Sometimes we learn by doing. Every generation stands on the shoulders of the one that came before it.

--Ray


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

I was at the pet store today and I bought the liquid vitamins. I saw so many different things, anti-bacterial, liquid minerals, moulting vitamins, etc...

So, I was also wondering what I should have on-hand. 

Does everyone agree with the basic list of 5 meds as written above? And does anyone want to add to that list? 

Also, this may be too much to ask for, but how about giving examples of symptoms and what the treatment would be?

I will try to search the previous posts for examples.

Thank You!
Julie


[This message has been edited by turkey (edited June 14, 2002).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

I don't second guess Fred, unless I have new data he's not privy to--and I usually don't.

The probiotic thingy I mentioned above is something to keep in mind. Plain yogurt works for us, but you can buy formulations as well.

Many of these drugs, Baytril included, are metabolized in the liver. More is NOT better!
Dose accurately. I'd rather see another day or two of treatment, and a lower dose, if I had to guess. Fred's warning is well founded.

Also, suspend bleach or vinegar water treatments when medicating.

Julie, you just might make pigeon-mamma of the year!









PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

Howdy Y'all,
I am Jim and a new memeber, this is a wonderful discussion board .. Thanks for setting up such a helpfull tool to the pigeon hobby. About usefull medications, Fred seems to have everything listed correctly, but may i please suggest what i have in my medicine cabinet.

For intestinal problems i have baytril and amoxicillin, i use amox mainly because it is less damaging and stressful to the birds system and it can be used during reproduction and when young are in the nest Baytril on the other hand can severly effect reproduction and can cause birth and growth defects in youngsters. Use Baytril mainly for individual severe cases, it is one of the few potent drugs we have left so please dont misuse it too much. 

For respiratory problems use any tetracycline drug , like Terramycin, Aeuromycin, Tetracycline, or Doxycycline and if you mix it with Tylan then no respiratory disease can stand in your way.

For coccidiosis, baycox is a good drug as well as sulmet. I prefer sulmet because its a broader spectrum drug as well.

For Canker i use metronidazole and ronidazole, i prefer ronidazole because it is probably the safest anti canker drug out there.

For worms i have used levamisole and ivomec, i prefer ivomec because it attacks the worms whereby most drugs paralyzes it and relies upon excretion for its elimination. But when i use ivomec i only use 1 drop from a syringe for youngsters and 2 drops for adults , which is actually more than the effective dose. Fred : how did u come upon the 7 drops per bird dosage, it seems way to high. 

These are the drugs i use and only use when a disease rears it ugly head. Preventive medicine does not good to the birds , it actually hurts them, because when they are truly sick and u use those same drugs they might not work as effectively as would be if you havent primed the infective organisms to them. To me preventive medicine is good loft hygeine , proper husbandry (good food, clean water, and grit), and dont get overcrowded, in addition to vaccinations for PMV and Paratypoid your birds should stay healthy. Almost forgot, keep them pest free and be careful of what birds you introduce into your loft. I have had friends that had their colony devastated due to a foreign bird they brang in. 
hope that help,
Jim


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Fred i think i will order from Global and i found the site.

Ok, let me get this straight:

Would this be alright...
1.Ronidazole Tablets for Canker.
2.Appertex for Coccidiosis.
3.Baytril.
I would like to get the Ivomec(for the worms) from Global but don't seem to find it.

And am i suppose to get something for respiratory problems??

I found something called MEDISTATIN at Global for (Candida) the crop fungal infection, would that be alright?

Any help would be much appreciated!

Mary









P.S. Welcome Jim!!











[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 15, 2002).]


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Mary,
All the medications you mentioned getting are fine. You also got very fine suggestions from others. Everybody has their own approach and no one should claim that their way is the best and that everybody else is wrong.
Iffan had very good recommendations about the medications that he/she finds effective. Personally, I am afraid of the tetracyclines because they are one family of antibiotics that cause yeast infections and I know you are deathly afraid of them. Tetracyclin compounds happen to be very effective in combatting psiticossis. It has to be your choice.
I think that if you keep your bird areas clean especially if they are indoors, the water changed at least twice a day and the birds are given a good diet with grit, vitamin and mineral supplements, there is no reason to anticipate illness. Yes, it is good to have these items on hand and yes, illnesses do happen but you reduce the probabilities of trouble happening significantly.
Please keep in mind that I do not own pigeons but bring them in from the outside, do the best I can to cure them and release back into the flock from which they came. I use Baytril because it is the broadest spectrum antibiotic I can use and half the time, I don't really know what illness I am dealing with. I have heard about the negative effects of Baytril on young birds but have never personally experienced them. That doesn't mean that the danger is not there. I have also heard that Baytril will render other antibiotics useless but that doesn't bother me because when am I going to see that bird again once it is released? 
In your situation, where you do have birds, I would listen to Iffan but would honestly stay away from the tetracyclines unless you give them concurrently with Nystatin, an antifungal for yeast.
Don't go overboard but keep certain meds on hand for the common ailments. Just keep in mind that they all have shelf lives.
Incidentally, for cuts to nails and beaks, keep a bar of Ivory soap on hand and only Ivory. That stuff is a great coagulant and disinfectant. Just take a piece off and push it into the wound. 
"Talk" to you soon.


------------------
"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."

Albert Schweitzer


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
I know that Foys does not have an 800 number. I will try to get you the address of the site where Ivermectin is listed. If not, I think Global has an 800 number.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Here is the address within the Foys site for Ivermectin. Get the injectible type. It has an airtight rubber top and if you have a hyperdermic, take some out and give seven drops to a bird or use three drops from an eye dropper. Never worm a bird under two months of age. http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/wormers/#Ivomec%20Drench


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Fred and Jim for all the help i really appreciate it!!









I am keeping my Tooty's area clean and everything so she wouldn't get sick i also change her water more than 4 times a day, and i am always picking up her poop since she doesn't have a cage yet she simply perches up on my door or sits on my shoulder (when i get her cage it will be only to sleep in).

I don't have other pigeons but i do watch the flock of about 80 wild pigeons that come to my balcony and usually i would find a sick one...so i thought it's good to have the medicine around, since the wildlife center don't seem to know what they are doing...

Thanks for the Ivory soap tip, i will get some soon.

Mary









P.S i will call the Global's 800 # and see if the got Ivermectin.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

One more thing.....Could someone suggest a good vitamin and mineral supplement, either from Global or if something is available at pet shops?

Thanks!


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

Hi Fred,
I understand, you use the ivomec drench at your dose of 7 drops per bird whereas i use the Ivomec injection at 1-2 drops per bird. 
Jim


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

Opps sorry Fred, after reading your post again i realize that you do use ivomec injectable , but why do u use the 7 drop per bird, just curious, it seem kind high. I usually use 1-2 drops per bird and do it again in 12 days to stop the egg cycle as well. Yes, tetrycyclines are not good when a fungal infection is concerned, and is probably well advise to use both an anti-fungal as well as a tetracycline, because either type of infection can induce secondary infections of the other kind. Just keep the birds healthy and all should be well for you. 
Jim


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Jim,
If you use a hyperdermic syringe, 7 drops is about the right oral dose. Three drops from an eyedropper is about the same amount. I'm talking about a syringe with a hyperermic needle and those drops are a lot smaller and about equal to three from an eyedropper.
I don't know the life cycles for all worms but it is 21 days for the roundworm so if the bird's droppings have worms after dosing, I wait that amount of time for a second one.
Foys carries a product that covers more types of worms. It's called Aspercilla Plus. It's in capsule form and if you ever want to try it, wet the capsule before putting it down. It's not the easiest thing for a bird to swallow.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Jim and Welcome!

I see you are already in the thick of things .. nice post you sent and very informative. We appreciate it and look forward to hearing more from you!

Terry Whatley


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello:

I found Ivermectin at Siegel pigeons http://www.siegelpigeons.com 
they also have all the other medications, i may order from there since the prices are lower for the same products









Siegel doesn't have Baytril, does anyone recommend anything else like it or then i will have to order it from Global.

Thanks!!

Mary

[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 16, 2002).]


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
I love a product called Nekton. They come in two types, a vitamin supplement and a mineral supplement.
The mineral supplement must be dissolved in water. Sprinkling it over food is toxic. I would also put the vitamins into water. I find that vitamins usually fall down to the bottom of the feeding cups and the bird gets nothing.
If you use any of these soluble products, change the water often because these items tend to cause a more rapid bacterial buildup.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I emailed Siegel about the Baytril, and they have baytril in a liquid form. The cost is $45.00 for 50cc. , is the liquid form Ok??


These are the medications i will order:

(1)Spartrix: for Canker
(2)Appertex: for Coccidiosis
(3)Copper Sulfate: for Sour crop(the crop fungal infection)
(4)Ivomec: for Worms
(5)Baytril




[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 18, 2002).]


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I called a pet store near me and they only had a vitamin and mineral supplement called "Prime" it's suppose to be sprinkled over fruits and veggies for parrots, but it could be added to the drinking water.
I read somewhere that it is a very good product.

Thanks again!!

Mary



[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 18, 2002).]


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Just moving up the posts....


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Bumping up


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Bumping up again for ChristyB......


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