# White with cream bar



## nancthiery (Jun 24, 2008)

I have a daddy bird that is white with a cream/ yellow bar, I love the color! His mate is a dark, gray with dark red bar. Is it safe to believe that the offspring that are the white with cream bar are females? Or is it a 50 50 chance. 
So far I have 6 babies from him and each batch has been one white and one gray. And so far only the 1st batch is mature enough to show the signs of male or female. And the white is I believe a female.


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## nancthiery (Jun 24, 2008)

They are Italian owls if that makes a difference. This is a pic of the pair.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*He looks to be cream bar*

Which is dilute ash red or more specifically, dilute red bar. His hen babies will all be dilute. If he carries blue, in his case also silver, he would also produce blue males that would be split for silver (dlute blue). His male babies will be red bars that are split for blue and they will also be split for dilute.

You can tell if he is split for blue by black flecks that will be in his tail and wingtips. Sometimes they spread much further. You can also tell in that if he ever has a baby that is blue or silver (not silver red bar as that is ash red), he is split for blue. Ash red males that are not split to blue produce all ash red babies. This is somewhat of a generalization as he could be split for a host of other things but I'm assuming the simple route, that he is not.

I don't know if this sounds complicated or confusing but I hope not. It seems complicated at first but is fairly simple.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Oops. I missed the hen*

I thought she was a blue bar from the pic. If she is a red bar, then she is ash red also and unless dad carries blue, babies will all be red bar and creme bars.
Dad could still be split for blue and then there would be blue and silver babies as well. All dilutes are still hens and all non dilutes (intense) are males that are split for dilute.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi Guys,

Bill, Almost 100% perfect. However, if the cock is a dilute ash-red *(cream bar) which he is, if he carries (wild-type) blue, then all the blue youngsters will be HENS. (Basically, it would a blue cock X ash-red hen mating). Now since he's dilute (homozygous dilute) also, all his female young will be dilute as well. Therefore any hens will be true silvers if he throws that "wild-type" to them.

So, you're correct. ALL his daughters will be dilute; ALL his sons will be non-dilute *(normal colored). If he's homozygous (pure) ash-red, then all cocks will be ash-red carrying dilution; all the hens will be cream bars (ash-red dilute). If the cock is heterozygous for Wild-type (blue) then 100% of the cocks will be ash-red and will also be carrying dilute; 50% of those ash-red young cocks will also be carrying wild-type (blue). ALL the hens will dilute birds - and 50% will be silvers (dilute); and 50% will be cream bars (dilute Ash-red)

Since they're both bars, all will be barred young.

(Okay - now, Nancy, let's break this down to non-genetics language) Basically, any bird you get in the nest from this pair that looks naked (has no down) will be a hen. So mark that down in your records when you band them. Any bird you get in the nest from this pair, that looks fuzzy (has down) will be a cock. Mark that in your records when you band them. You will know from the minute they hatch, whether they are cocks or hens. As for color - all the birds will be bars, and all will either be red bar (the males) or (cream bar) the females. If the cock happens to also carry blue (you'll also get some silver bar hens as well.) Make sense?

Frank


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*-Hi NANCY, I like your Italians, I raise them too,and I realy enjoy them very much. I have one pair that I am very fond of red checks the male carries blue as a second color and he also carries dilute.Over the last 3 years these birds have given me red checks,blue check,red bar, blue bar,yellow check,silver check,cream bars,and silver bars. So you can see that if the birds are carring the correct combo of genes they can produce a great number of color combinations.You will not get all the combinations that I get as your pair are bars and bar birds can not carry check,so you will never see a check bird from this pair. * GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks Frank, you made it look easy*



bluecheck said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Bill, Almost 100% perfect. However, if the cock is a dilute ash-red *(cream bar) which he is, if he carries (wild-type) blue, then all the blue youngsters will be HENS. (Basically, it would a blue cock X ash-red hen mating). Now since he's dilute (homozygous dilute) also, all his female young will be dilute as well. Therefore any hens will be true silvers if he throws that "wild-type" to them.
> 
> ...


It's a good thing you're here to keep an eye on me.

Bill


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## nancthiery (Jun 24, 2008)

WOW! I have had three batches from them so far, each time I have gotten one that is not as dark as the hen, but close, and the other is white with cream bar. All my other birds in the loft are red bar, I really like the white and cream so I am going to keep a couple hens for breeding. Now if I breed them to a cock that is not white what would I get? The cock I'm thinking is a lighter gray with red bar. 

The original male I spoke of earlier is completely white other than the bar. But now his daughter is molting and her head is coming in gray (blue) will this go away?

To me I don't believe I have any silver, does anyone have any pics I can compare too?


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## nancthiery (Jun 24, 2008)

I have noticed the difference in the babies when they hatch, and I did suspect the naked ones to be hens. Thank you all for your help, I was on the right track of thinking, but I wanted to make sure. I used to raise rabbits and I really got into the color genes and such, but wasn't sure. I like the picture that I believe warriec has of a silver IO but I can't see any bars.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It doesn't look as if you have silver*



nancthiery said:


> WOW! I have had three batches from them so far, each time I have gotten one that is not as dark as the hen, but close, and the other is white with cream bar. All my other birds in the loft are red bar, I really like the white and cream so I am going to keep a couple hens for breeding. Now if I breed them to a cock that is not white what would I get? The cock I'm thinking is a lighter gray with red bar.
> 
> The original male I spoke of earlier is completely white other than the bar. But now his daughter is molting and her head is coming in gray (blue) will this go away?
> 
> To me I don't believe I have any silver, does anyone have any pics I can compare too?


True silver is dilute blue and has a black tail bar and wing bars. Ash reds and ash yellows do not have tail bars.

You need blue and dilute to get silver. George must have a bird that is split for blue. There is alot of variation in color intensity with ash red birds. I have some figs that I thought were ash yellow but they are just very light ash reds.

If you want more of these cream birds, breed dad back to one of his young hens and all young will be cream bars. If you breed back to red bar, you'll get red bars, not cream unless the cock is split for dilute.

The naked chicks are naked because they are dilute, not because they are hens. In the case of yours, they also happen to be hens.

Bill


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

Hello Frank, always enjoy your posts and also your website. YHope you will be able to drop by the fantail section at the Pageant. Our judge, Andrew Kerns of Virginia is a kind of a genetics guy, working on t/s and f/s in fantails and has established a pretty good stud of barless blues as well as browns and dilutes of these.


John McC


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## Homer87 (Nov 2, 2008)

Are those italian owls also called Figuritas or something like that?? How much do those birds cost?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Homer87 said:


> Are those italian owls also called Figuritas or something like that?? How much do those birds cost?


Hi HOMER87, NO the ITALIAN OWL is a larger bird and a good flying bird the Italian Owl stands horizontal to the ground and has longer legs then the Figurita.While the Figurita is about 6 to 8 oz.stands with its tail down.You realy must see them side by side to see the difference those of us that raise them can tell the difference. ..GEORGE


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

risingstarfans said:


> Hello Frank, always enjoy your posts and also your website. YHope you will be able to drop by the fantail section at the Pageant. Our judge, Andrew Kerns of Virginia is a kind of a genetics guy, working on t/s and f/s in fantails and has established a pretty good stud of barless blues as well as browns and dilutes of these.
> 
> 
> John McC



Thanks John, I will definitely be there. I'm planning to just take a few days off from the business and run out to San Bernardino for that time and hang around, so long as my asthma doesn't kick up. 

when I was in Australia some 12 years or so back now, I bumped into a breeder who was recreating Indian fantails. He didn't even know how unusual what he had was until my jaw dropped. He'd used some Satinettes to help get the birds the way he needed and he had frill stencil Indians. They were absolutely gorgeous with that tail spread. I can't way to see what Kern's birds look like. 

Frank


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