# bleach killing PMV? PMV incubation period, need info



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, I searched other threads, and saw some stuff about blech, nothing specific to PMV though. I'm pretty sure, almost positive, the one i got a week ago has PMV, now the one that was in a box next to him is showing sure signs of PMV. You see, i do quarantine them, but the BEST i can do with quarintine is a box/cat carrier in the same room as the others, but so they cant be loose with the others.
I BEGGED my roommate to put the two PMV birds, in carriers, in his room for now, so they are there, my room has the other pigeons, a few waiting to be shipped, and a few more that i was SUPPOSED to release tomorrow. No one else is showing symptoms quite yet, but on one hand i need to release these pigeons, I need my room back, it's my bedroom. On the other hand i want to be sure i'm not releasing an exposed to PMV pigeon that would surely die out there right now. 
So, first off, do i clean everything, i mean EVERYTHING with bleach to be sure, or just the area affected pigeons box/carrier was? DOES bleach kill PMV? Is there anything i can give, IN CASE they were exposed, to STOP the virus? Any supportive meds/supplements? Like if WE feel a cold/flu and take vitamin c?
if bleach does kill, what strength bleach?
At what stage will these other birds show sympotms if they were exposed, and at what point will they be safe to release? I'm pretty sure the incubation period is 2 weeks, correct? 
have NO WAY to put ever pigeon in their own box/carrier, to seperate every pigeon from one another, in case one was exposed and it hasnt exposed all right now.
I'm really bumming right now, the new one with symptoms spent ALL night with his head rolling back and forth, like stevie wonder, and around like Linda Blair, and head all the way back, touching back inbetween wings.  
Now, i cant take any new birds in anyways, because i have to many, thought i was releasing them, but it's now not even safe for new birds if i wasnt full anyways.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's a link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=237100

That only details the dilution, though.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yep, saw that one Pidgey, but am wondering if it needs to be stronger, or if it will even kill PMV. I really, really, REALLY hope it didnt affect any other birds!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Only time will tell. I don't think you need to make it any stronger than that. There's another stuff called Novalsan (Chlorhexidine) that vets use. I seem to remember a thread about cleaners with some really good information. Gimme' a minute...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This has fairly extensive stuff in it:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww6eiv.htm

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

There's some good disinfectant information on the Cocka2.com site from back during the Exotic Newcastle Disease epidemic here in Southern California. 

http://cocka2.com/biosecurity then scroll down to the Protect Your Birds section and click on the Biosecurity link. Down at the bottom of that page is another link to sources for the different disinfectants.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, to me, bleach is the best cleaner. However, I can no longer use bleach myself to clean anything except in the laundry. I knew that the vapors can cause respiratory problems but I had to learn the hard way that I can't take the fumes. Last spring, we had a bird in that was sick and I used bleach to disinfect everything connected with it - developed what I thought was a cold but it lingered, literally, for months. Antibiotics helped some but I continued coughing all summer long. Finally, I seemed to get over that - then we had one of our aviary pigeons die about October and another one get sick with the same symptoms much like PMV so we brought him in and again I used bleach on everything. Came down with a more severe congestion than I had the first time. This lingered until around Christmas when I got more antibiotics which helped some but it finally took a strong antibiotic for almost two weeks to clear things up. Still cough some but much better. I have found that being around things like scented candles can cause much the same problem. I have been checked for pigeon lung and it is not that per the doctor. I think, because of the allergy or whatever you want to call it, I got a bacterial infection that only the strong antibiotic would knock out. It ain't fun. 

My whole point in this "short story" is to tell you to be very careful with bleach. Personally, I would clean only the things the birds have come into contact with. Keep all of the birds out of the room and leave the windows open until the fumes dissipate completely. 

To me, if you have kept them in the same room but separated by several feet, with no opportunity for the "well" pigeons to come into contact with the PMV pigeons' feces, water or seed, I wouldn't worry. Of course, it is always best to have them in separate rooms but if you don't have the facilities, you just do the best you can.

I now use Novalson to clean everything. I know it is not as effective but after using that I spray everything down with Lysol.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*Thanks!*

Thanks you guys! And Maggie, that is horrible! I'm sorry that happened! You said pigeons showed SIGNS of PMV, did it end up BEING PMV? 
Maggie, how did they check for pigeon lung? just curious really. Alright, what about the supplement front, anything i can do, if the pigeons were exposed, to keep the virus from infecting them, or infecting them badly? I see on PMV thread it mentions calcium? 
Darn, I just feel horrible right now! I just feel like i'm not doing enough to keep the PMV out of other birds, but i guess it is too little, too late. First of all, i thought seperate boxes were good enough to isolate birds from one another, i guess not, it just seems too much of a coincidence that a week after the first suspect PMV came in, the one in the box NEXT to him got it. I always handled the PMV i picked up a week ago last, as to not touch him then the others, so doubt it spread that way. HAD to spread by air, particles in air, box to box. Also, very stupidly, i thought a lot of viruses lived more in the summer, and PMV was more of a summer thing, even though i've seen suspected PMV cases here lately, was thinking it was warmer in that location, etc etc, well, found out today it is in mouse turds! well, you KNOW what they say about assuming things!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Paratyphoid is in mouse droppings (Salmonella typhimurium, the "murium" part meaning "from mice"). PMV is going to come from other pigeons and the community at large is going to be the "reservoir".

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

It is possible that the second bird was incubating PMV, rather than having got the virus from the first bird, depending on how long you had that bird. the incubation period can be weeks rather than days. 

It's quite common to find several pigens from the same general area with it within a short period of time, but in different stages of the illness, 

We use bleach at whatever strength is recommended on the container for disinfection of cages which have been occupied by PMV birds.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I agree with Maggie and John, if this is PMV then this pigeon arrived with it. Nothing that you did contributed to it.

If it was infected in your care then it would have taken longer for the symptoms to appear, the virus needs a few days (or longer) to go through the incubation stage, and a few more days to reach the brain. It is once it reaches the brain that it develops the nervous symptoms that we recognise as PMV. The booklet by Vindevogel and Duchatel states exactly how long it takes the virus to progress form its entry via the eyes, mouth or nose, through the digestive system and then to the brain. Sadly I don't have my copy and can't find my records of the number of days in each phase.

We have had three pigeons that developed PMV during the first 10 days of the isolation period...none after a longer period than that. That is why isolation is so very important.

Maggie, I have always attributed the development of cryptogenic organizing pneumonia with the use of a product called Cillit Bang. This week there was a case of a woman who put some bleach in the toilet and then started to clean her bath with Cillit bang. The fumes combined in the atmosphere causing a visible toxic “cloud”, she ran out of the room, called the ambulance and made it to the garden where she collapsed. Her heart had stopped.

I will either put the cage in the bath with some Vanodine, which is a broad spectrum disinfectant that kills bacteria, fungi and germs, or I will spray the cage with it.

This is what Wikipedia says about using bleach. Please read it. It is frightening how easy it is to misuse! I use it to clean up the cat tray, but never realised that it can combine with urine to cause toxic fumes!



> By far the most cost-effective home disinfectant is the commonly used chlorine bleach (a 5% solution of Sodium hypochlorite) which is effective against most common pathogens, including such difficult organisms tuberculosis (mycobacterium tuberculosis), hepatitis B and C, fungi, and antibiotic-resistant strains of staphylococcus and enterococcus. It even has some disinfectant action against parasitic organisms [3]. Positives are that it kills the widest range of pathogens of any inexpensive disinfectant; it is extremely powerful against viruses and bacteria at room temperature; it is commonly available and inexpensive; and it breaks down quickly into harmless components (primarily table salt and oxygen). Negatives are that it is caustic to the skin and eyes, especially at higher concentrations; like many common disinfectants, it degrades in the presence of organic substances; it has a strong odor; it is not effective against giardia lamblia and cryptosporidium; and extreme caution must be taken not to combine it with ammonia or any acid (such as vinegar as this may cause noxious gases to be formed). The best practice is not to add anything to household bleach except water. Dilute bleach can be tolerated on the skin for a period of time by most persons, as witnessed by the long exposure to extremely dilute "chlorine" (actually sodium or calcium hypochlorite) many children get in swimming pools.
> To use chlorine bleach effectively, the surface or item to be disinfected must be clean. In the bathroom or when cleaning after pets, special caution must be taken to wipe up urine first, before applying chlorine, to avoid toxic gas by-products. A 1 to 20 solution in water is effective simply by being wiped on and left to dry. The user should wear rubber gloves and, in tight airless spaces, goggles. If parasitic organisms are suspected, it should be applied at 1 to 1 concentration, or even undiluted; extreme caution must be taken to avoid contact with eyes and mucous membranes. Protective goggles and good ventilation are mandatory when applying concentrated bleach.
> Commercial bleach tends to lose strength over time, whenever the container is opened. Old containers of partially used bleach may no longer have the labeled concentration.
> Where one does not want to risk the corrosive effects of bleach, alcohol-based disinfectants are reasonably inexpensive and quite safe. The great drawback to them is their rapid evaporation; sometimes effective disinfection can be obtained only by immersing an object in the alcohol.
> The use of some antimicrobials such as triclosan, particularly in the uncontrolled home environment, is controversial because it may lead to the germs becoming resistant. Chlorine bleach and alcohol do not cause resistance because they are so completely lethal, in a very direct physical way.[1]


Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This link tells you a lot about Pigeon Lung Disease and how it is diagnosed

http://www.pigeon-lung.co.uk/faq.html

I had my blood tested and it showed sensitisation levels of 100. When I asked what the scale was, they said they don't count above 100

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

the second bird, the one that just got it, i suspect from first, i've had for over a month, maybe 2 months! NO SYMPTOMS of PMV before, just plain string injury, letting toes heal. Thats why i think he MUST have gotten it from first, thoughts on that?
OH! Cyro, what the heck does that mean? Do you have pigeon lung? I mean, it is strong in your lungs, right?
Oh, it says on that link you can test it, is that true? I've had the "flu" for over 3 weeks, am better, pretty much, now, but i thought it was the worst flu i ever had, am i just being a hypochondriach?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Rarely it can take weeks to incubate. THis has happened a couple of times to Ali Black. the bird was in the aviary by the time it showed PMV symptoms. What you said about the way it pulls its head backwards, does it stay thet was for any length of time? While I was browsing through my books yesterday I found a reference to that in a description of paratyphoid.

Can you remind me what this pigeon's problem was when you brought him in?

If you have high sensitisation to pigeons and expose yourself to pigeon protein then you will show symptoms of pigeon lung disease. 

This is what they say about levels of sensitisation:



> The blood tests that we conduct give the level of circulating antibody to pigeon protein. This indicates the fanciers sensitivity to the birds in mcg/ml.
> 
> 0 to 5: No sensitisation
> Any symptoms are unrelated to pigeon lung.
> ...


As I also developed Cryptogenic Organising Pneumonitis at the same time as high sensitisation to pigeon protein it has been impossible to work out which disease was causing the symptoms.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, it was just a string injury, and he had some bent toes, so i was trying to brace them to strighten them out before release, which is a timely process. The back toe, the very back one that goes backwards, was bent UNDER the front three toes, so i slowly pulled it back, more and more, and now it's almost all the way back. 
So, no other problems until he started to be lethargic 3-4 days ago, thought he wasnt eating, i tube fed, the crop was stopped/slowed for a day, thinned food, crop going again, still not eating on own. Has slight head tremors, cant fly, over controls when trying to, flops around, had seizure like symptoms when tube fed, brought on by stress i suppose, the head goes back and stays sometimes, sometimes it goes back and forth, twists around. The symptoms come and go, yesterdasy he was fine most of the day, no seizures or head stuff really, but the night before he was like that all night.
I just really think he got PMV by being NEXT to the other guy, I didnt KNOW the other guy HAD PMV at first though, i thought it was a stomach/crop infection possibly, but really thoght it was a respiratory infection.
Cynthia, do you wear the hat/mask combo with your birds? Was it recommended to get rid of your birds? Did you have to take meds?


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