# Is it Okay to mix Baytril and Pennicillin?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

One of my Feral convelscents, has had these odd, pale, no 'white' in them of pale green kinda 'snakey' broken up poos usually in pulpy piles but often broken snake-like and way soft, and I know he is ill with something...

I did a Worm Pill down his throat - supposed to be one time only - and for one day, he had almost normal poos, then right back to the odd "not right" poos.

I called the place I got the Worm med from and they said, "Oh yes, only use it one time...one pill, one time..."

What the hell then...!???

So...

I sent off a poo sample to a lab, they called and said "Haemotosis" or "Haemo-something" some darned thing I wrote down and now do not see handy, and, they said "Pennicillin", so, I put him on an in-the-water type Pennicillin...and...

Poos have not changed and it has been kind of a while now...eight days or so? Anyway...

He eats and drinks more than would be normal for a Bird his size, and he is a big boy, too.

So...I do not know what to do...

I am thinking to just try something else...

Any advice?


Thanks all..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Phil,

There are some moderators on this site, which know more about pigeons and their treatment, then my Vet I take my cats to. I am sure, they will be along shortly, with some good advice. 

My experiece has been with racing pigeons which are well taken care of, and most of the sickness that a feral can be exposed to, I have never really seen. I am one who practices a form of "natural" medicine, which may not be effective in this case. I would avoid mixing drugs as a general rule, or use antibotics without a real diagnosis. My personal thoughts are you could further weaken this birds immune system, and open it up to worse problems.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Phil,

A couple of things. First did you mean Haemophilus Catarrh or Hexamitiasis? I'm not sure why you would want to treat w/two anti-biotics at once. Here is the 
link for the chevita site:

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

You need to be sure of which disease you are treating for. Sounds like your 
describing a digestive tract problem as opposed to the eye/respiratory one. But 
then you recently had that bird w/the bad eye problem so I'm not sure what's 
happening there. If it is the first problem above, anti-biotics, if the second, 
then you would treat it as you would canker, only a couple of days longer.

Second, the second remedy you administered was via the water, so I would
suggest a more "scientific" method of delivery where you can be certain that
the bird is actually getting the correct dose of medicine recommended for the 
illness. If you are crop feeding then it would be a small jump for you to crop
medicate. Tip the head back and gently put syringe in mouth aimed toward
back of throat sliding downwards. You should be able to feel the syringe in 
the front of the throat if it is in the right location then plunge and remove.

I hope this helps you w/your pijie. 

fp


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I wouldn't mix Baytril with anything else. It's a powerful broad-spectrum antibiotic. Try it by itself for the full course of treatment and if that doesn't work, then try something else. Foys (and I think Global, too) sell both tablets and injectable Baytril in addition to the kind you put in the water. The latter two are more effective; the liquid in the water is for flock treatment when it isn't practical to treat each pigeon individually. I like to do what my vets have done on many occasions: give them an injection the first day followed by pills for the rest of the treatment.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Warren,

Problem is...it is kinda like very hard to impossible to get an accurite diagnosis!

Or, the diagnosis and regimin I did pay for, is not effecting the symptoms.

Anyway, truth be told, he seemed brighter before he pennicillin, and since it had changed nothing about the appearence of his poo, I will discontinue it and give him a few days with no meds while I think...

Thanks...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


Thank you...yes, it was "Haemophilus" with no further qualifications in any way.

I looked it up and read about it and this Bird ( not Mr. "Eyes") had none of the symptoms mentions for any kind of Haemophilus. Maybe the lab got my sample mixed up with someone elses. I did carefully mix the correct amount of Pennicillin (so many mL to a Gallon) and this Bird drinks a full Tea Cup of Water a-day. But, as I mentioned, there has been no change in his poos. Overall his disposition and preening and appearence have been good through out his stay with me, and slowly, without respect to his Pennicillin regimin, he has gained weight from his initial 'light' and run-down weight.

I had another Bird whose poos were very similiar, and I put him on Baytril and after a week his poos are normal and he is much brighter and more vivid.

Hence, I was thinking to put this one on Baytril also to see if that helps.


Thanks fp...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdmom4ever,


I was way overtired, and I think my question should have been "Is it okay to follow a Pennicillin treatment with Baytril?" Lol...

Anyway, this Bird eats like a horse and drinks plenty, yet the quantity and kind of poo make no sense...smaller Birds who eat less make plenty of nice normal poos, while he makes these small slumping piles of vague pale green 'snakes' and no 'white' in them.

The Pennicillin recommended by the place that did the Lab test-diagnosis of the poo sample I sent them, has not done anything to change the appearence of his poops, so.

The Baytril I have is also the add-to-water kind. I have never given an injection, but if you would like to instruct me on that, please do.

None of the Vets here are familiar with Pigeon illnesses and I imagine an exam with lab tests will be about $300.00 or so if...IF they would even do it at all, and so far, none of the 'nicest' Vets I have found here tend to make welcomeing tones when it comes to any Wild Birds.

So, diagnosis then seems to be not-so-easy.


Why would the Worm-Pill seem to help so nicely for one day?

Hmmmm...

I dunno...

Unless anyone has any other ideas, I will simply discontinue the Pennicillin today, and in a couple days, begin Baytril and see what that seems to do.

Thank you!

This stuff is kind of vexing sometimes with no or little reliable diagnostic means available. I did read everything I coulf find to try and determine what this Bird ( and other Birds) may respectively have, but none of the illnesses I read about seemed to fit.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Phil,

I suggested the crop method 'cause the Baytril product I use is liquid, and I can do crop medicating. Birdmom has pills and the skill level to administer injections. There are pictures and instructions of how to do injections, I just feel more comfortable the first time doing something like that in the presence of someone experienced. That's just me. I may have seen that one on the Modena Club link that you liked--check there.

I read here through the search engine that stringy, milky green poo was coccidiosis. My birds did test positive for that. However, the Albon didn't
clear that up. It has really been the Flagyll that has helped with that. But 
then again,while I was @ the vet, I was about to leave w/only a worm diagnosis when the Dr. double checked the technician's work and found the 
coccidiosis. That's when I started thinking of you w/your microscope and was wishing I had one!

I wasn't product savvy when I first purchased the add to food Flagyll, but
the difference in response to food-administered delivery and crop delivered
medicating is like day and night. Even w/the Baytrill liquid that I gave you 
the link for on New England Pigeon Supply I do in crop instead of mouth as I
have seen them shake their heads after putting in mouth and some flies
out. This way I know it's in there. With a pill the mouth is OK, 'cause it 
either goes down the hatch or they puke it up so you still know where you
stand. But I believe the liquid is absorbed quicker.

**Ok, so I checked the Modena site and it says to use a cycline with or 
without the Tylan for Haemophilus 
Medpet has a pill form Doxycycline called Doxybird, 7.5 mg
Also, check out the "latent infections" under the prevention section.

Why do you get all the eye problems.....are you trying to become
a specialist??!?

Best,

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


This Bird has no eye problems whatsoever, I only have one Bird who has an eye problem, and he is another subject entirely!

This one, is overall a quite robust and vivid and stong fellow. I could get a tube feed of some meds into him but I know he would not like it at all. he eats and drinks well and in large amounts every day, so meds in his Water are not a problem, even a high concentration in less water would work well, to be followed up later with a lesser concentration in his Water, if anyone could comment on that as an idea...

I do not have any "Flagyll" but I could order some tomorrow...


He was hit by a Car as far as I know, and suffered a gash on the leading joint of his Wing, which Wing did not come back to full function or hang, but he can fly decently enough to say, get to a roof.

I did not want to release him in town, and not untill I have cleared up whatever his illness is.

I only deal with those Birds which I find ill or injured or orphan, or, for a while now ( much to my exhaustion) those Birds which one all night Vet sent me for my having left my name for them to do so...as, the alternative for these Birds otherwise, it to be turned away, or is doom or euthenasia at any rate.

There appearently are no other people in this town of almost two million people, who rehab or convelesce Pigeons, Sparrows, Humming Birds, Starlings and so on...

The last couple months of my Bird careings have worn me to a nub...! I can not keep up this level of involvement, but that for now, I must for their sakes. But I can not let this happen again without loosing my lease or getting into real trouble financially, since it keeps me from getting my paying work done, and I have a very thin to no 'cushion' to float on financially.

I will see if I can post to my "webshots" an Image of this wonderful Pigeon and a close-up image of his odd pale green poos...maybe it is Coccidosis and the lab got his sample mixed up with one which was indicitative of 'Heomophylus"...since he has no symptoms resembleing that 'diagnosis' at all.

I will try and revisit some reading about Coccidosis later tonight.

What about Aspirgillosis? Would the poos look like 'this'?

For now, back to some paying Work for a few hours for me...!

Oh! - if I were to try an examine his poos under my new and quietly inviting Microscope that is sitting there waiting for me to try it...

Just what would I be looking for to determine anything?

Can anyone reference a location of pertenaint images of what Coccidosis evidence in stools would look like at some magnification or other?

Thanks so much!

Best wishes all...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm sure it's frustrating to not have the services of an avian vet. Since that is the case, you will have to treat your pigeons by trial and error. In time and with experience you will learn to recognize many ailments and know how to treat them. I think you will find that you get a gut feeling about these things.

Any new pigeon I get, whether a rescue or bird I've bought, I automatically quarantine and treat prophylactically for canker, coccidiosis and worms, using Global's Multi-mix. I've read that over 90% of pigeons carry canker (trichomoniasis) and coccidiosis and with ferals worms are likely as well. You should keep a couple different medications on hand for both canker and cocci, as it's wise to rotate them so the organisms don't build up resistance. There are a number of different drugs available for treatment of canker and cocci--check out the pigeon supply houses' web sites and read up on them. 

If you suspect coccidiosis, Baycox is a very good drug for it. It's very safe and only requires 48 hours of treatment. It goes in their drinking water. 

Baytril is an excellent antibiotic to have on hand. You don't want to overuse it, but it's good for infections you can't have diagnosed since it's broad spectrum. It's the drug of choice for treating paratyphoid/salmonellosis.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> I will see if I can post to my "webshots" an Image of this wonderful Pigeon and a close-up image of his odd pale green poos...maybe it is Coccidosis and the lab got his sample mixed up with one which was indicitative of 'Heomophylus"...since he has no symptoms resembleing that 'diagnosis' at all.


Hi Phil, 

What are this birds symptoms exactly if any? What are you feeding the bird as well. I'm wondering if this is nothing more than diet related. When my hen eats a lot of peas her poops reflect this with bright green, mushy poops. There other things such as greens (if given) can have a similar result in texture and colour of poops. Diet changes as a whole can adversely affect individual pigeons feces.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad,


Thanks...he has no other symptoms beside the appearence of the poops, and, maybe, that he drinks one full (old fashioned, full size) Tea Cup of Water a-day and eats about 2/3rds that of 'Wild Bird Seed' a-day. That and Grit being available also.

There are no more Feed Stores here which exist any longer for buying Pigeon Mix or the likes, so everyone who is a Seed eater gets the same mix of 25 lb Bagged Grocery store bought 'Wild Bird Mix'...normally on this feed, Pigeons have normal white and greenish-brown, soft well formed, non-sticky, non-smelly poops...( Lol...)

So...I do not think it can be the Seed.

Often I mix a little fresh Olive Oil in the Seeds and add some powdered Greens also, but whether I do this or not has had no effect on his or anyhone else's poops.

Right now, I have one Dove and four other Pigeons eating the same chow, and aside from one ( with the Eye infection who is getting K-T Exact and some other easy to tube-feed thick 'Soups' and no Seeds as such,) whose poos are green slime still but now with some "white' anyway ( been on Batryl but poops before were green slime dabs with chalky yellow liquid ) the others have normal healthy looking poops.

Coffee Break half over now...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

Yes, I hear what you're saying. I was just thinking that perhaps the answer was a simple one...well hoping in your case. Sounds like a healthy bird though aside from the odd poops. 


Good luck with him/her,


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdmom4ever...!


Thank you...

I think I used ot have better luck useing my old brown outdated rubber top Bottle of Oxytetracycline, and putting so-much into so-much Water in a jug and filling a water Bowl with that as for treating unspecified ills.

I think that this handsome large Pigeon with these dull pale greenish snake-mush poops, when I sent off a poop sample to a lab, I think they got his mixed up with someone elses, because the diagnosis they made was for him having the "Haemophylus" which NONE of his ( one ) 'symptom' seems to match at all...

Now, as I will not be able to read any more for another few hours, and this is my little Coffee Break for a few minutes, would my Tetracycline ( new Bottle, rubber top kind) be of use to address possible 'Coccidosis' do you s'pose? Or...?

I can send of tomorrow for either ( or all of ) "Flagyll", Global's "Milti-Mix", or "Baycox"...

Anyway, one of the other Birds who DID have similiar looking poops, assumed making normal looking ones after being on the Batryl for a few days, so...I am tempted to put this fellow on it also.

And yes, I wish there were an Avian Vet here with whom I could work something out to be educated by in many of these things. The few who are here will not let any Wild Birds enter their premisis on any pretext or reason, and only do rich people's Parrots or Macaws and so on...or the odd Bird of Prey supposedly, and, were very VERY rude and evasive when I had called trying to get an appointment which I intended to pay for, to merely talk with them for a few moments.

I do not find anything whatever to like or respect about them so far.

I guess their 'Oath' was just smarmy yuppie insincerity to exploit rich people who have exotic 'Parrots' and drive 'escalades' in the newer posh suburbs here...

How charming...

...sigh...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Phil,

Didn't mean to upset you like that, but in your response to me you said yes it 
was Haemophilus. The only Haemophilus that I can find has Catarrh after it, ie
Haemophilus Catarrh. When I look @ the pix associated with it, even tho you 
said there were no sympoms, it looks (the pix) oddly like "Mr. Eyes". I just 
thought it might be in a lab test without yet showing signs. Sorry about that.
I know how frustrating it is being in the work situation you describe and if I 
had to add to that worrying about patients in my home, I don't know...might 
be really nerve racking.

Anyway, I hope you are able to manage w/all these burdens.

best,

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


Oh, I only said a lab-had-said "Haemophilus" and the sample sent them was not for Mr. Eyes...but for thish Big Boy who I thought might have worms...(although I should have sent off a poop sample for Mr. Eyes, but was so far behind on so much else i did not send his in, also oweing to how they wanted 2 Tablespoons full and he would was not putting out that much in a week...only little blips of bright green sticky...)

Sorry about the confusion...

Anyway, started Big Boy on the "Batryl" and we shall see if that clears it up or what...

Now, if you have any idea where I can find images of what some of these things look like under a Microscope, I would be very grateful..!

I have looked and not found anything yet to speak of.

Anyway, the images for poops from 'salmonella' and for 'coccidosis' do not look at all like his do...but that is not a conclusive thing, I know...but I have seen his kind before and they are distinct...

soprry for my sometimes negative moods about 'vets'...

I am a Cabinetmake, sometimes people come to me wanting to learn...

I say, "Okay, I will explain "this" as something basic you will need to know, and your homework assignment is..."

They never come back...

I would have been DELIGHTED when I was first interested in Cabinetmaking if anyone with any know how would have talked "with" me at all, or taken any interest to explain something and or give me asignments calculated to bring me along or to recommend a Book or tell me to go find a tool like "this" then bring it. Me doing this for others takes less time than one cigarette, yet these vets, making five or eight thousand dollars a-day, cranking through all them ffive minute $125.00 per plus charging huge mark ups for a simple injection, x-ray or shot or take home med, can not find their way clear in their conscience, to give even the time of day to an aspirant grass-roots gratis worker with the Feral or Wild Birds...nor to have some lacky tech do a fast x-ray for some reasonable cost once or twice a year right before closing time...

I see little hope for our culture anymore...

Anyway...

Thanks pal...!

Good luck with all your doings too!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Phil,
I think overall, it's a class thing. If you do an apprenticeship w/the union in a 
given trade, it's a four year program just like going to college. There's alot of 
codes, techniques etc. to learn. Now everyone wants to live in a nice place,
but it hurts to have to pay for it. And then there are the union busting ad-
ministrations such as this one who encourage illegals to work here and drive
the going rate down. And ya, there's nothing like getting insider tips from years of hands on, but in our fast food culture, who appreciates it these days?

Anyway, I have seen pictures of slides....I just can't remember where. I have a feeling it may have been in the resource section in 
this site under Arty's links. Poke around in there, and I will too later when I 
get home. If not, I'll have to check my bookmarks in the different browsers and computers! What kind of microscope did you get and why did you choose that one?

Birdmom's point about rotating the kind of meds to treat a given illness is a
good one. Especially from breeder rescues or ferals that aren't releasable.
But overall, unless in a really bad state, I think the ferals are easier to treat
as there are no worries about what they've been treated w/in the past. And
hopefully intuition will kick in at some point. But it seems standard to treat 
as she suggests for certain common problems.

Hopefully, once this onslaught of needy ones subsides, you will be able to 
return to caring for the ones that cross your path in life without having to 
care for all of the ones who cross the path of everyone in your area. Either
that or you'll win the lottery 

fp  .


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi Phil,

My hubby bought me a wonderful book for my last birthday (I told him I had enough jewelry and wanted pigeon reference books instead!  ). It's written by Dr. Colin Walker, an Australian vet and racing pigeon fancier. It has the best pictures I've ever seen of various ailments, bad droppings, injuries, etc. along with detailed photos of what things look like under the microscope. There's a whole chapter devoted to using the microscope and recognizing what you see with it. It's expensive, but an excellent reference. It's called "The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health & Management." It was written in the late 90's, so the the info is fairly up-to-date. 

This would be a very good resource for someone like you who doesn't have access to an avian vet. The author even addresses that issue, because he knows not everyone has an avian vet available. Foy's sells the book. I think it's close to $100, but it's worth every penny. I'm sure there are other good books out there too, and I have some of them, but this is the best I've found. Maybe Amazon has it a little cheaper??


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


Cool...I will look later in the archives...see if I can locate some links to reference images...


My Microscope...hmmmm, I could post some images later on the 'webshots' thing. (I think I was going to do so last night, but I poooped out and hit the hay) But for now, heres a describe -

It is of what one might call the standard form, "Earnst Lietz" Microscope made in Wetzlar, Germany, approximately 1936 vintage, small English Language leaflet and serial number hand written on an identification Card, with Leatherette top-handle, top opening, light purple color baise lined fitted Carry Case ( as distinct from the more usual clunky wood or plywood front opening 'Lab Case' in which they sit vertical, this one sits in it's case laying down).

Eyepieces : 5X, 8X, and 12X

Objectives : 10 to 1, 45 to 1, 100 to 1

Black, and Chrome plated details.

Case is serial numbered to the Microscope.

Has a large lower reflecting Mirror with two sides, one flat, one concave.

Below table, above Mirror, has a large collector lense with an adjustable iris underneath it.

Overall looks very well made and is in fine condition.

Frame allows one to tilt the upper section if one wishes to do so.

I elected this one because I like mood of the era, and I liked the neat Carry Case to keep it protected and stowed. I looked at maybe five hundred Microscopes on the 'e-bay' and while I saw many fine ones of various eras, this one seemed to appeal to me the most. 

I paid more than I could really afford, but I figured this one would be a 'keeper' and that I would be happy with it. Most decent modern ones are not cheap either for that matter, but none had anything over this one unless they were of the binocular kind, and or unless I was looking to spend most of a months rent for one. And none had anything like a nice Case for themselves.

So, for function and powers, this one was in the top 5 percent anyway...and looks very handsome, which none of the modern ones do.

I did have a small Microscope for a short time when I was a kid in the late 1950s, so overall the form and focus functions seems familiar. Otherwise, the use of one in practical terms, is new to me.

Thanks!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sounds cool Phil....I like the era stuff too. Never thought about ebay for that so I'll check it out.

best,

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Boirdmom4ever,


Ooooooo...osunds like the Book I should have indeed!


I just checked "Amazon" and none were available, so, I will check with 'Foys'.

Thank you!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------

