# help me! cold or sick?



## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i rescued a pigeon tonight.....this is my first pige expirience.....i was very razzled but it seems i've done good so far. it was really cold....about-10 to-20 and he she was huddled on the ground by our local food co-op's back kitchen door. i suspect there was small heat coming through the crack. my friend's the night baker there and she's scared of birds....they have germs or something....anyway, i picked the huge grey fluff ball up, no fight from him/her, drove it home and put her up in a spare room, first with a hot potato, and now i just put a rice bag in. happily it's feathers have laid down so i assume she/ he's warmer now. wouldn't drink the rehydrating solution when i offered. looked at me like i was nuts, or really pissed off, prolly both....it is the middle of the night after all .so i haven't looked in it's mouth yet. i just tried to, but there was some vicous head turning and it's red gold eyes are very intimidating to me.very hard stern unblinking penatrating look.... i'm happy it's putting up a fight though....i'm unsure if it's "waddle" is healthy, a greyish white color, nice looking beak....but the poop it took was green and runny, xcept for the white part....should i try to take this wild bird to the vet tomarrow? help me please! anybody!


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i live in grand forks north dakota


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. I am really surprised nobody replied to you yet. Anyway....how is the bird doing now ?

It's great that you warmed him/her up. Also good that the feathers didn't stay fluffed out. Both things are very good...Also good that it has some attitude and was not into being told what to do (that is always a good sign). So....you have done a GOOD job for starters.

1) Can you post a pic ?

2) PIGEONS DO NOT CARRY DISEASES... OR GERMS WHICH CAN EFFECT HUMAN BEINGS or MAMMALS...THAT IS TOTAL B.S., so don't be scared of that. If you happen to have other BIRDS at your house (parrots, canaries, finches, etc) , keep the pigeon in a separate room from your birds.

As far as food and water...well...you will probably have to be a little more ...insistent than just offering the bird water . Get some food...seed (safflower seed or hemp seed) and maybe some crushed up cereal or crushed up toast...and see if she eats any on her own.

If she doesn't then you may have to try handfeeding; we can explain this later. Tell us if she eats on her own, asap.

The poops are green and white but runny...OK, that isn't terrible. It'd be bad if the pops were missing the white, or looked completely like clear water, or were bright green with no white.....so....that's not bad from what you have told us.

Lastly...pick it up (use a towel and wrap him up like a burrito...makes it easier for you if you can keep his wings into his body). Look at her breast area. Is the centerbone ("keelbone") sticking out noticeably...and is there very little flesh/muscle/meat under the feathers to each side of it ? OR, does there seem to be some good muscle/flesh to each side of the bone, and the bone is not sticking out dramatically ?

This will tell us if the bird is in danger of being emaciated/starved...or is maintaining weight OK.

Does she seem alert ? Are her "evil"  eyes open and looking awake ? Or do her eyes close a lot and does she seem sleepy and not "with it" ?

Pigeons are tough...but, dang...Dakota winters are merciless on a poor bird.

Hopefully, she just got exhausted and cold and sorta needs a pit stop, some rest. warmth, and dnourishment....

But she might need some meds....

Give us an update and some pics. 

Thanks for caring and helping the lil' pidge !


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## james fillbrook (Jan 2, 2009)

yea what did you put the water in he may not be used to it? aother peaple will anser soon


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

hey there! first of all you totally rule for taking the birdling in!!!! you get a gold star!!! a few actually! 
i ended up with my first pigeon in a rescue type situation like yours, and i have fallen madly in love with pigeons. prepare yourself!

so the darker green poo is probably from a lack of food. as soon as she starts to get some food in her, they'll get a little lighter, more olive drab/army green, depending on what she decides to eat. 

hemp seed, flax seed, safflower seed, i bet your friend the 'germaphobe'  can get her hands on those easily. if not, i've always found them at marc's, or nature type stores, health food stores, and some decent pet stores. 

as far as the water goes, i didn't know this right off, but pigeons need a decent depth of water to stick their beaks into. they suck water up, using their beak as a kind of straw, unlike parrots. so make sure you have a little bowl that has about two inches of water in it. 

also, use your finger as a sort of 'psuedo beak', and kinda poke around at the seeds, and splash the water around a bit, so the bird gets the idea of what the buffet in front of it really is.

you'll get used to the eyes, and the first time you get the 'sleepy eyes', you'll be smitten. or the little feathers of joy that go up right behind their noses when they're really really comfy and happy....sighhhhh.... 

take a look at my profile, and the albums on there, and you'll see what i'm talking about. you'll also see what these kids can fight thru and come out on the other side just fine with a little help from their human. 

DO keep us posted, there are LOADS of genius pigeon people on here, and i owe them a lot for helping me get trooper thru his ordeal, and you'll get any and all info you could possibly want here.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

oh goody. some help. local vet said he'd do a poop float for me tody. i can definatly feel a keel bone, and the stern look of last night is replaced with a more dazed look today. still a little puffy, but maybe it's neck is supose to be like that? his back feathers a smooth at least. won't fly around. only the weakest attempts to flee from me. hasn't eaten or drinken ANYTHING. i put out rolled oats, flax seeds, lentils, unpopprd corn, dry leguemes. actually he will just sit on my lap here, blink at me while i "examine him" refuses to let me look inside the beak. smells like a hampster to me also only perching on one foot. only wants to sleep and sleep. no camera to take a picture!


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

oh crap...i was looking at her keel bone more, it feels spiny to me. i think maybe her foot might be hurt! she really is favoring it up in her skirt and was furiously preening that foots leg feather. maybe?


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

seems a little unsteady, so this could be from th foot to?we'll go get a poop float done for $22.50 now. i hope it makes it through this. should i put a drpper of water down her throught?


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

i wonder if she could have gotten frostbite on that foot or part of the leg? poor baby! 

i seriously do NOT get how they survive our winters - my heart just aches for the ferals i see huddled up on the house at the end of my street. 

you can get a decent wild bird food mix that she might recognize. crush up some cheerios, or dog food, try different stuff she might recognize, you never know what she might be used to! 

do you have other birds, or have you? you sound like you have a little experience with birds in general. 

try wrapping her fairly snugly in a hand towel, up to her eyeballs just about, so that she's sort of a birdie burrito and not able to thrash around. you can slide the bottom beak just a smidge off to one side to get some leverage to gently pry open her mouth with maybe a Qtip or something that won't hurt her, and then get your fingertips in there to hold her mouth open.

or, instead of a towel, what i did with trooper to keep him still was to take a sock, and cut a small hole in the toe end and i threaded his head thru the hole, pulled the foot of the sock over his wings to keep them against his body. 

made everything i had to do and for him immensely easy! again, photos of said sock-bird-burrito get-up in my photo album.

they don't have strong beaks like parrots, so there's no danger to your fingers. but they can FLAP and are ridiculously strong. also, just a word of caution, they can't "BITE" you, but if she gets freaked out enough, she may try to PECK you, which is harmless to fingers, but watch your eyeballs. i'm not saying they're vicious, just thought that would be something you might not think about. 

very cool about the vet helping out, when are they gonna do the float? ----just thought of something else from my own personal experience, i thought for SURE that trooper wouldn't make it through his horrific injuries. but he did. i have never seen anything like it, and i honestly think this is a pigeon thing, their ability to hang in there. so if you're willing to nurse the birdling back, DO. don't immediately think of putting her down or whatever. try really really hard to do everything to save her and see what happens. that's what i did, and trooper is a darn miracle bird. okay, i'll stop gushing now.....(see what's gonna happen to you?!?!?!? =D)


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

so i was trying to look down this tiny beak. she started being to busy preening to let me, but then she was jerking her neck around not really preening at all. looked almost like the PMV pigeon vid


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

[email protected], PMV is something i thankfully have NO experience with. 

does the vet you're going to see have any experience with pigeons?


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i'm a starling mom, but they have long pointy beaks that are easier to keep hold of when they're twisting their head around. they are in CA, i'm up here to get some decent medical work myself. it's true i'm lonley, so i will do my best with this big old dove. her foot is definatly hurt somehow, but her toes look great. good color, and she can grip if she has too. i think my dropper is to big for her beak anyway. it's so tiny, and i'm always scared they will twist so hard the beak will come right off. plus she starts her preening and jerky head  i don't really speak fluent pigeon.


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

'fluent pigeon'---hahahahaa - me neither! i haven't even had trooper for a year yet, and my second pij i got shipped from boston to ohio in october! 

i have a bunch of parrots, so i thought i was pretty squared away with my bird knowledge - HAH! - i learn something new about the pijjies darn near every day.

where did you see the PMV video? i emailed someone to see who we should alert about this thread, since i feel useless now.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i don't know about the vet's exp...but the bird has decided to try to eat. dosen't have very god aim at all....food is flying...prolly PMV, huh?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Goodness me....how can y'all jump to such a quick conclusion of PMV ??? It could be about a dozen things....most of them of not such seriousness. Don't jump to conclusions. What we know is the bird is either exhausted or ill...maybe both. Other than that, we know not much.

OK, let's get to the skinny. 

You had a fecal test done by a vet, yes ? Did you also have a culture or blood test ? Those would be very helpful.

Here is the deal...if the foot grips, that's good. The puffed-up feathers are not all that good. 

The fact that she doesn't make any attempt to flee may or may not be an issue...it could well be that she is just emaciated and exhausted.

As far as FOOD...and WATER...OK, so she really needs to get that into her. Providing she is warm and you can feel her body warmth, and she is alert...IF SHE DOESN'T START EATING A LOT OF THE FOOD YOU HAVE GIVEN HER, you need to start feeding her by hand. If the keelbone protrudes, you do not have the luxury of waiting another day to see if she is ingesting enough food.

2 choices:

1) Seed-Poppin': get safflower seeds and, one by one, slowly (maybe 4 per minute) slip them into the front of her beak, gently....hopefully she will recognize food in her mouth and swallow. 

If she does...great. Feed her a lot of seeds (at least 15-20 per feeding if she is willing). Do 3 feedings/day. Give her a water dish, filled at least 1/2" deep with water.

If she does not, or if she resists them, don't force it...you could send one down the breathing tube by accident. Go to step 2)...

2) Buy some Kaytee Infant bird handfeeding formula (or whatever brand a store might have). It has to be baby bird formula/powder. Also, buy a few plastic syringes (maybe your vet can supply some ?)

You mix it with warm water (do not mix with cold and microwave...the microwave leaves "hot spots in the formula which willscald a bird's mouth and crop).

Get it to a soupy pudding consistency, and check the temp on your hand...it should be warm just this side of lukewarm...it should definitely NOT be anywhere near warm-hot.

Secure birdie in a towel and use the syringe tip to pry open beak near the middle-front of mouth. Squirt in a little...no more than 1cc. See if she swallows it...if so, that's great.

An adult emaciated feral needs about 30 cc a day to regain weight. Do it in 4 separate feedings; space the feedings min. 2-1/2 hrs apart....maybe 5-8 cc's at a feeding (if she will allow).

Also, use the syringe to give her some water....maybe .5 cc's a couple of times a day....administered slowly.

The wet baby food will both add weight and re-hydrate her.


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

gees, i honestly don't know!!! i just read some really good info on PMV, i'm gonna try to paste it here 

This infection is caused by paramyxovirus-1 (PMV-1), an agent that is very closely related to the virus that causes Newcastle disease in chickens -- both are PMV-1 agents. It seems to have begun in North Africa from which it spread to Mediterranean countries, Europe, the UK, and finally North America. We have lived with this disease for several years, and the likelihood is that it isn't going to go away any time soon.

Last year in the CU yearbook, there was a good article on paramyxovirus in pigeons. Because of certain recent developments on this disease, I would like to update the subject with some new pieces of information that has come to light on this and one other disease.

Firstly, since January of last year, there have been outbreaks of PMV in lofts of racing pigeons in individual lofts in some cities in western Canada. These problems seem to have been dealt with pretty effectively and positively soon after the owners vaccinated all their birds with an oil-based product. These results have confirmed my belief that vaccination in the face of an outbreak of PMV is a very practical way of dealing with the problem.

The controversial parts of this situation are that, firstly, according to some producers of oil-based vaccines, only vaccines developed from the virus cultured from PMV-infected pigeons provide 100% immunity -- and there seems to be a lot of truth in this statement. Secondly, for professional, ethical reasons, practising veterinarians are often reluctant to recommend the use, in one species, of vaccines prepared specifically for use in another species. When there is such use, it is known as "off label" use of a product. In the case of PMV, the use in pigeons of an oil-based vaccine prepared specifically for injection into chickens for the control of Newcastle disease, when that vaccine hasn't been specifically tested in pigeons, is "off label" use of the product. For this reason, some veterinarians are recommending only the use of the appropriate vaccines developed from outbreaks of PMV disease in pigeons -- such as the vaccine developed by Maine Biologics in the USA, or the product known as Colombovac.

Several years ago, the company producing Emtryl sold it for use in pigeons in small packets (they called them "sachets") that contained the correct dose of 3 grams (1 level teaspoon) to be used in one Imperial gallon (4.55 litres) of drinking water for 5-7 days. Since the market for this 3-gram packet of Emtryl was very limited, the company eventually discontinued production of these packets. (Too bad because in my experience, fanciers too often underdose their pigeons with Emtryl. If these packets continued to be available to us, it seems to me that lower-than-desirable doses might be largely avoided today. Final point: the dosage of Emtryl recommended in the veterinary formulary published in the yearbook a few years ago is far too low. Use the correct dosage given earlier in this paragraph.)

Back to PMV. When the western fanciers who experienced the outbreaks of PMV vaccinated their birds, I mentioned that most apparently used an oil-based vaccine, one called Newcastle K, since the formerly used Newcavac-T was no longer available. Several months later, I spoke personally to some of the fanciers involved in these outbreaks and learned that spread of the disease in their lofts came to a halt within a relatively short time after vaccination with this product, and they haven't had any more problem with PMV. Hence, my belief in vaccinating birds in the face of an outbreak. This belief is also based on the fact that PMV tends to spread relatively slowly through a flock of pigeons, a point that allows a fancier a window of opportunity to vaccinate, and save many birds in the loft.

For those who are adamantly opposed to vaccination or treatment of any kind, at the least consider this: at the minimum, protect your valuable stock birds (some of them irreplaceable) by vaccinating them each year. In this way, if your unvaccinated race team is virtually destroyed by the disease, you can produce another generation of racers from your routinely vaccinated stock birds. My recommendation would be to vaccinate all of your birds, old and young, before the race season each year.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Once more: Don't jump to such a quick conclusion of PMV. It could be about a dozen things....most of them of not such seriousness. Don't jump to conclusions. What we know is the bird is either exhausted or ill...maybe both. Other than that, we know not much.

I am a bit of an alarmist myself, but I would not immediately suspect that a bird in the condition you describe necessarily has PMV...at all.

Talk to the vet.


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

see e? i told you you'd find geniuses here. 

and i'm reading and reading all over the web now..... vitamin B deficiency? they can have some yogurt....brewer's yeast can help some stuff..... i learned about apple cider vinegar a few months ago.....the list is never ending!!!

like i said, i learn something new every day!!~!! 

i can't wait til you get the birdling to the vet, though!!!


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

o.k.....but she started feeding herself the seeds. she's seems disoriented. she seems dizzy and is prone to tipping over if i move to suddenly, but doesn't tip over for no reason on her/his own. i can't afford to do a $100.00 + culture right now. i'm really hoping this poop float will glean some info....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This could just as likely be salmonella as PMV and both are SURVIVABLE...the first with antibiotics and the second with supportive care.

Certainly the severe cold and dehydration can takes it toll and if a bird his harboring any illness the stress can make it full blown.

Another option food wise would be to defrost some frozen corn and peas, gently pry the bird's beak open and pop individual pieces in the back of the bird's throat. The bird will swallow. The benefit of this is that they would contain moisture which this bird is in need of right now. You will need to feed 20-30 pieces per feeding.
As Jaye recommenced,please do have a vet run a fecal float. Let us help you with whatever information you receive. Please don't be hasty if the vet recommends euthanize.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i'm sure i can do that! great suggestion. her beak is so little to me, and after reading the bit on salminella, i thought it very well could be that too. i'm off to the vet!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Although I might clarify with the vet BEFOREHAND their euthanization policy (i.e. make them understand that as such, the bird is YOUR charge currently...so the ultimate decision rests with you; and not with them to refuse to let you leave with the bird).

Regarding the blood test/culture tests $... I understand completely. All I can say is...if it ultimately might give everyone the definitive answer they need...eh...maybe the ol' VISA card can handle it (?) I don't say this to be critical...just to share my experiences... in avoiding the pain of 20-20 hindsight....

Anyways...GOOD, GOOD, GOOD news that she is eating on her own...that is really GREAT news actually !!!!

Did you peek inside the beak ? or, at least let the vet do that...to determine if she might have canker.

Canker, Salmonella, exhaustion, infection....those tend to be the big ones. I guess one other thing is...does she have any cuts, skin breaks, or lesions anywhere on her body ??? Trying to rule out an attack....

Lastly...if you can convince the vet to prescribe some Medacam on your way out...it' a good anti-inflammatory and painkiller...it just tends to take the edge off of any discomfort or pain a bird may have...and it can help the healing process.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

As Jaye stated, there could be several reason causing these symptoms.

IF PMV might, I'm not saying that it is, be a consideration, please click on the following link. 
It's a wonderful piece explaining PMV, written by our Cynthia (cyro51). 
http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/pmv.htm 

Cindy


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

o.k. -the vet had little to no exp. with pigeons, but was nice enough to see this one anyway. her foot is hurt, and her head is a little shaky so he thinks she must have a head injury too.....gave me amoxi-drops, to dose her .25cc twice a day. the poop float must have been fine, he made no mention of it. she's a little skinny too he said. i haven't seen her drink but shes doing her best to eat. should i force some fluids in her for my own peace of mind?


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

the vet said her head tremors were from ceribral damage. what now?


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i'll make her some peas and corn. that's better


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i will try to give her aprin too. i'm sorry, i feel wierd aabout all these medicines and i'm scared i will kill her with them, but it will be o.k., right?


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

FYI she's eating like a champ! (except she misses the food dish sometimes)


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi...aprin ? Do you mean aspirin ? Do you know how to dose that ? Did the vet give you that too ? Don't administer anything to the bird that the vet didn't prescribe.

Painkillers combined with antibiotics is a fine combination...it won't hurt the bird.

The amoxicillin is good meds. and will certainly clear away any infection.

I would still suggest some sort of painkiller, if the foot is injured. I am a bit surprised the vet didn't give you any. Can you possibly call and get some ?

If not...I (or someone closer to you) can send some. Please seriously consider this.

She may have neurological damage , he thinks ? That's too bad.

You should observe her behavior...see if she can do the basic things pigeons do...eat, walk, rest, etc. She may well not flap for a few days.

If her quality of life seems OK...i.e. she doesn't always seem sad, depressed, in pain, and appears able to perform the most basic functions...she may have a nice life ahead of her...but likely as a loft bird and not a feral...if the neurological symptoms don't go away. In which case, we would need to find her that sorta setup somewhere in your general vicinity.

I do really wish that you could get some anti-inflammatories, at proper bird dosages...into her. It is amazing how much good it can do them, on top of the antibiotic. It may well even relieve the head tic... 

BTW...although the vet was no avian expert....I give him/her kudos for treating the feral pigeon as a serious patient. Many vets wouldn't even bother...


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i did make some suggestions of medicines. i don't think he liked that...at first he recomended me to get rid of the bird, then insisted on an office visit. i brought pidge in, he examined her, and gave us amoxicillian. she does have a slight abrasion on her right leg with some swelling, head tremmors were also noted by the vet. he thinks she ran into a window downtown or something. he also isn't expirienced with pigeons, but i was greatful that he would see her. she has almost all the symptoms listed for PMV in the link above, except the flying ones, as he isn't flying at all. the vet made like he was going to put a q-tip in her eye and she didn't even flinch....is that star gazing? her wings and feathers look great, no more puffing up except a little when napping, but i looks normal to me. he's just sleeping a lot and eating a lot, or trying to. i started her dosing only 30 minutes ago. a quarter cc 2X's a day. i haven't read to many good things about amoxicillian and birds, but something is better than nothing, right?i force fed some warm peas and corn right after the dose. should i give it some asperine?


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

oh, wont give her the ASPIRIN then.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

perhaps if she is to damaged, she can become a lap pidge. she seemed to know enough to poop off my knee and not right on it, and she does blink in a variety of ways. also at the vet office i saw some characteristic head bobbing, as if she was talking about the vet or something. i only have hope i guess. her head moves really wierd sometimes, but not constantly. poor dove.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you post a picture of the Pigeon?


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i'll try to rustle up a video cam from a friend. i would like to show you guys how she eats.
i'm going to make her a make shift spot, because right now she's in big room with only a blanket, water bowl, food dish and paper filled bowl. perhaps she would like something cozier, but i should keep her on the floor maybe? a brick or rock to perch on, and keep heating her,? or should i chill out on the rice socks? i don't have a cage but maybe i can fence a spot in my room with some cardboard, plastic cover the floor, and then heap newspaper on top of the plastic? will this suffice do you think?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

estewart said:


> * *the vet made like he was going to put a q-tip in her eye and she didn't even flinch....
> 
> ** is that star gazing?*


* Did it seem like she didn't see the q-tip? Do you think she may be blind?

** Star gazing is when the bird turns it's head upside down & gazes upward.

Cindy


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Forum folks...amoxycillin...any problem with that ...do you think ? Chime in, please. It's a general wide-based antibiotic...it could just be that the doc prescribed it because it's so generally used (?)

estewart, I have PM'ed you. And again, thank you so much for helping this bird out.

Regarding your Q, if she has some permanent neurological damage...again the Q becomes...how is her quality of life ? if it seems good..again, can she do a lot of the things a pigeon does...then, yes...either a home pigeon companion or a small loft/aviary pigeon situation may be fine for her.

AZ has an interesting thought....do you think she might be blind or partially blind ? the fact that a q-tip came towards her eye w/ no reaction...that's not particularly indicative of blindness, IMHO. Jeez....one would have thought the vet would have shined a small light and all....

Charis suggestion of a pic is a good idea...can you snap a few..preferably of her in her "relaxed" state ?

For an enclosure...use anything...a laundry basket, a cardboard box...with some towels underneath fo softness and the paper towels on top of the towels for cleanliness....if she tends to stay in a tummy-sitting position, make a "donut " shape out of a towel to support her on her front and sides...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Since the bird is in North Dakota and this is winter and has been winter for a good while .. ie. no mosquitoes and way past the transmission stage from a time point of view for PMV to be passed from bird to bird, I seriously doubt that this is PMV. I would tend to think the problems are due to trauma or perhaps paratyphoid but would go with trauma as my first "choice".

Given that I think this, it kinda doesn't matter what antibiotic is given as it won't do anything for what I think is the cause of the symptoms. BUT, the Amoxi won't hurt, so I say go with it.

Pictures would be very helpful as would a short video or two.

I think Cindy may have nailed this one .. blindness or serious loss of sight.

I have several blind pigeons, and they do just fine with a little help from me in keeping their food and water right where they know where to look for it. There is no need to have a blind or sight deficient pigeon put down. Cindy also has experience with blind pigeons as do a couple of others here.

And, yes .. good on the vet for doing the best that he could to help!

Terry


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

hey guys, no luck on the camera TODAY....but my little patient is a lot more active! running away from me today! a little but of wing flapping! 
i don't think shes blind. the vet seemed satisfied with her eye reactions, he didn't seem to think she was blind. i'm not a vet so i don't know what he was looking for, i just thought it odd that there was no blinking or head jerk at that test. she seem like she's really kicking, and i know she hates her medicine times. honestly i'm keeping my interaction at a minimum, because i am hoping to release her. the vet who saw her thinks maybe once her leg heals she will want to fly. would a leg injury keep a pigeon grounded? she is keeping off of it as much as possible, but will put on a show of standing like she's not hurt.i don't want to startle her to much either. she really needs to just chill out and heal. my sister's boyfriend has a really nice camera, i just can't seem to get a hold of her.


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

hey e!!!! good to hear the little one is doing better!! yaaaaay! 

for temporary housing, how about one of those sterilite storage bins [without the lid snapped on, of course], lined with newspaper, and then over in a corner of it, put a pigeon-sized box on it's side with paper shreds in it for her to hide out in? sort of a little cubby hole? oh, or a 'pigeon hole'....

i bought bags of those crinkly paper shreds that you can use in gift bags from the dollar store, and used that to make a nice squishy 'nest' for my kids. it's pretty , too!!! 

i think you are the absolute best for taking care of this kid the way you are! can't wait to see photos!!!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

That's good news...that she is trying to be evasive is good news. That she is alert is good news. That you are able to feed her is good news. 

I am gonna send on the medacam to you because it may help alleviate some pain in the leg.

But all in all...the fact that she was sitting quietly in your lap yesterday and now tries to scurry away from you...is a good thing. She sems to be getting her energy back. keep up the feedings, and the antibiotic, and the supportive care and heat.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

estewart...how is she today ????


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

well, this bird is really kicking i think. i put her in a suitcase last night(open, of course) and this mornig she had let herself out and was napping in the middle of the floor, where she had been kicking it before. i put her back while i got her meds ready, but she put up a fuss.strongest wing flapping i've seen from her yet. after i dosed her, i gave her a q-tip bath, (she had a seed that was stuck on her head...it seemed like a regurgitaded one, but i haven't noticed a lot of this type of thing) so i cleaned her feet. i think she really liked this . she stood on her one foot so i could reach her feet, lots of happy eye blinking, and she even was doing some feather fluffing on her face. so i tucked her in her case for a nap when she got sleepy, with a warm rice sock, and she's laying there snoozing right now. my sister is gonna bring over her mac top and were going to try to get some photo's with this. (her camera charger is lost)


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Excellent !!!!


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i put the pictures up in my albums section. haven't got the vid of her eating yet


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

she's cute as heck, and your starlings are adorable!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK, she is on antibiotics and pain/anti-inflammatories....so the meds are generally covered. Her poop looks OK...nothing alarming in there. Does she poop a lot ?

Also, does she EVER use the hurt leg ? Or can she NOT use it at all ???

Have you felt it...does any part of it dangle, or does there appear to be an obvious break ? It doesn't look swollen....

When you put the side of a finger between her toes, does she make any attempt to grab onto the finger...or is there no attempt at all ?

I am glad she is on the meds, it certainly is helping her out. Her eyes seem alert. Does she seem to be getting more uppity with each day ? Or is her demeanor still inconsistent..sometimes active, sometimes lethargic ? How are the neurological signs ???

The fluffing is still a bit of a concern to me..does she always look that puffed as she appears in the pics ???


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

hi! yes, she looks that fluffy most of the time. she does use the hurt leg, but she didn't grab my finger with it. after meds this morning she actually hopped on my chest, and then up to my shoulder! so we looked out the window a while. she seemed really happy actually, large pupils and lot's of blinking. a little head movement too, but never up and down, it's always to this side or that side. she never sits whith her neck straight up, and if she does it results in a neck twist. while perching on me, i moved too suddenly even though it was slow to me, and we had a crash landing to the floor.  her wings flap, but they're was no lift at all hardly. couldn't seem to glide. she went down in a half circle.

she eats all day long it seems like, one day i went in right after dusk and she was eating still. i got a really good feel of her keel bone, and she is def skinny. i feed her in a pie pan so it's hard for her to miss, but i can tell she's hit or miss about eating. ive never seen her take a drink of water, and her water is always full. of course i change it 2x a day, and how much water can she drink? 

she seemed like she decided to take walk around my room just now. she is only perching on my hand with one foot. seems very interested in the computer and keyboard.

i find it hard to believe that little scratch on her leg is incapacitating her this much. there are little knobs on the bottom of her feet. i assume they are cauloses, but maybe not?she is big eyes over the computer screen!


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

her poops are't too much, but i have to change her bedding or she won't stay in bed. it seems normal to me. to clarify on the puffing...that's how she sleeps and relaxes, she's smooth when i handle her, or if she's trying to walk somewhere. i've seen her use the foot, like when she side steped up my arm, and it doesn't dangle, she tucks the whole thing up in skirt sometimes, but mostly she looks just like the picture, how she stands with it, foot hanging just outside of the skirt.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. OK, the water issue is sort of a big deal. Dehydration can cause a lotta problems with birds. I understand it's hard to figure if she's drinking.

Have you tried a small water dish, gently dunk her beak into the water and see if she catches on ?

So, generally...things aren't going badly....if she doesn't seem to be getting weaker...if she is still eating...if she seems alert...if she is pooping regularly. She is on medacam and antibiotic.

But a pidge poops a lot... so I am wondering about enough food and enough water. Also, fluffed in a resting position means something's up...a resting position should be at rest.....usually smooth feathered.

It may be that there needs to be more aggressive intervention in that aspect...i.e. formula handfeeding to put on more weight....

Maybe something else in the treatment dept ????

Hoping others can chime in on possible next steps ???

hello, hello, all.....????


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Some suggestions...
You might try putting her food in a deeper dish, full of seed, so that when she puts her beak in the dish it will be hard to not pick some seed up.

When you took her to the vet, did he happen to weigh her? If you don't know for sure, could you call and find out if they did and then let us know?
With sick birds, it's extremely important to monitor their weight regularly which can give you an idea of how the bird is recovering.
Do you have a kitchen scale on which you can weigh her?

Antibiotics and pain medication can take a toll on a bird's appetite just as it can with a human. I think that Jaye's idea to supplement her diet with a hand feeding or two each day could make a huge difference in her recovery. You should be seeing a minimum of 15-20 poops each day.

Looking at the poop in the picture, I'm somewhat suspicious the bird has coccidia which would not be unusual. It's easy to treat.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Charis...what are the "poop signs" of coccidia ? is it bacterial ?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Charis...what are the "poop signs" of coccidia ? is it bacterial ?


The poop looks like it is encased in sort of a cocoon. Coccidia is a single cell parasite and is treated with antibiotics. Pigeons carry naturally it in their intestines and it's only a problem if it gets out of balance. Stress or other illness can bring it out.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here's a link to the products Foy's offer for coccidia.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/coccidiosis.html


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

pigion is pooping normally. the pie pan is 1 1/2 inches deep and 7-9 around. she eats all day and gets a lot of seeds everywhere, takes a nap in it and then eats more. i'm loathe to change it out for something smaller and deeper, because her aim is horrible and sometimes go's past her feet. but i'll put a ziplock dish down and see how that gos. 

i've shown her the water dish, it's smaller than the pie pan, but still pretty large.i did as suggested and offered a small cup to her beak, but she didn't drink, so i dipped my finger in and put a drop of water on her beak. she smacked her beak and drank the drop, so i did this a few more times succesfully, untill she shook her head...she also reached up and pecked my knuckle a couple of times. i don't know if that was deliberate or not, but i will keep up with this offering her water on my finger tip. 
she weighed 2.75 grams at the vet visit, and my sister has a scale i can use (i think). 
honestly, i'm not really seeing any significant changes in her yet.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm assuming you mean 275g  because a 2.75 g bird would be a bit....teeny.

Well, it sounds like it is going sorta OK...if she is eating on her own and seems to do it with gusto, if you are getting some water into her.

I really do think that hydration should be upped significantly....so I dunno how you feel about administering some water to her orally via syringe. It is what I would do.

I think when you reach 10 days on the antibiotic, you might as well stop it...it would have been a full course and any more would be kinda pointless. I'd suggest keeping up the medacam, 1x day for several more days afterward. 

I am still having the impression that there's something not right, though. Nothing to alarm about, but ....

Can you post some poop pics ? If Charis thought the earlier pic might be indicating something, we can see if they still look the same...


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

wow! big drink of water! i put it in a little cup and helped her beak in! also, she was standing on my hand with both feet, full weight! 

how often should i offer her water like this?

also i double checked with the vet on her poop float and her stool was bactiria free, or at least normal and healthy they said. her poos were watery when i first brought her home, now they are solid, although some of the poos on the newspaper show that there was moisture. i'll try to get the camera again.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It might be over-kill, but I would offer water every 4 hours while she is awake. If she isn't thirsty, she won't drink. Mine always take a big drink right after they wake up in the morning and before they roost at night. Certainly they drink other times during the day.

A new picture of her poop would be great.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

just now! she's standing on the injured leg with the good one tucked in her skirt! maybe i shouldn't handle her to much, but i think i will cart her around the house with me a little so she can look out the windows and get some change of sceanery. it's o.k. right? as long as she doesn't seem stressed out, right?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes, that's OK. Good news on the leg, that means it's healing...certainly when they use the bad leg as their pedestal, it's a sign of getting better. Good job on the water, too. yes, like Charis said, try 4x day. Don't force it on the 4th try, but 2 big drinks is a necessity, 3 is great, 4 would be icing but not necessary.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i uploaded a picture of the foot bumps. thy didn't email the pictures of the poos i took. maybe they thought that was a joke or something. since she has been drinking water, her stools have become lees firm. there were a couple that seemed very soft and even frothy looking? maybe from the antibiotics? i'll try to get those photos. her poops are all an olive green color, but the looser stools seemed more pea green. if this was a bactiria, it would have shown up in a poop float, right?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

estewart said:


> i uploaded a picture of the foot bumps. thy didn't email the pictures of the poos i took. maybe they thought that was a joke or something. since she has been drinking water, her stools have become lees firm. there were a couple that seemed very soft and even frothy looking? maybe from the antibiotics? i'll try to get those photos. her poops are all an olive green color, but the looser stools seemed more pea green. if this was a bactiria, it would have shown up in a poop float, right?


yes antibios will kill good bacieria so she may be off balance there, when she is done with her course of antibios you can give probios and apple cider vinegar in the water which probios like, when I had a bird on anitbios i would give the probios oppisite time of day of the antibio meds, otherwise the meds just kill it off.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The foot bumps look like callouses to me. They probably are uncomfortable for the bird, but I don't think there is any type of real health problem going on with the feet. I would gently but thoroughly wash the feet in warm water and see what's really going on under the crusted on poop. I would probably then try to soak the feet in warm Epsom Salts water for 15 minutes or so twice a day and after drying the feet perhaps apply some aloe vera or vitamin E cream to help soften things up.

The bird does appear to be not feeling well in a couple of the pictures, so it's a good thing that you have it and are doing such a good job of caring for it.

Terry


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

great...i thought they were callouses to, but then i thought better to not overlook these things....


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> yes antibios will kill good bacieria so she may be off balance there, when she is done with her course of antibios you can give probios and apple cider vinegar in the water which probios like, when I had a bird on anitbios i would give the probios oppisite time of day of the antibio meds, otherwise the meds just kill it off.


give the apple cider and probos at the same time? i have some capsuled pro biotics, do i just dump one in her water everyday? with a cap of applecider vinigar?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

estewart said:


> give the apple cider and probos at the same time? i have some capsuled pro biotics, do i just dump one in her water everyday? with a cap of applecider vinigar?


if you have a gallon jug put 3 tabls to a gallon and use that as her drinking water not tap city water, well water or bottled. can give the probios on her feed at the same time moisten the seed with a little olive oil and sprinkle the cap on it.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

It's been 10 days on the amoxycillin, hasn't it ? How long did the vet say to give ?

It may be 10 days is all which the amoxy can do for the bird, if it has done anything...

Keep on w/ the medacam 1x/day. You can give that until it runs out....


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

i took off the amoxi drops on the 13. that was 10 days, i quit with the medcam yesterday. she seems fine as she can be right now.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK, yes I think those meds have done what they can by now.

See if lack of madacam seems to make the head tic get worse again. Just wondering if maybe the anti-inflammatory was helping the nerves in some way or not. Report back if the tics do seem to worsen, I can get you some more.

Leg seems better. She's eating, drinking, alert, yes ?

No canker, no pox, no apparent renal issues (if poops start getting funny colors such as bright green, or they lose their white in them, that's a sign of something there). Not emaciated, no longer exhausted.....

Yeah, it's going OK, I think.

I mean, maybe a wormer or some digestive balm of sorts is all which strikes me as a treatment at this point (?)

Keep an eye, keep us posted.

Be vigilant of the obvious red flags:

1) droopy eyes, closing often

2) lethargy, lack of alertness, weakness

3) strange poops

4) lack or loss of appetite

5) constant fluffing

6) irregular or fast breathing

If anyone else has any other clues, they'll chime in I would think.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

*update on grand forks wild pidge*

well, this bird is definatly doing better. it lives in an open suitcase, so the top flap makes an excellent handicap ramp. we're up and walking around here, and pooping all day, everywhere, and many different types of poop!some are perfect little pidge-muffins, others are abstract art-ish and pea green.
we've started to make cooing noises at dusk and also little grunting monkey noises whenever i lift her/him up during daytime clean up. also i'm noticing some neck extensions, and in generial is holding the head up in a more proud and dignified manner. also seems to have good aim, not great, but a little better, with the grit. takes a big drink of water from me usually only once a day, and we're still skinny keel chested. like this, < ....still no scale to weigh her, and people are very uncoopertive around here. i also tried to find some pigeon pellets at a store here...no luck, i'll find a way to order them online.

so here's the new curious behavior. i pet the pigeon when it's time to go home for the night, and when i start stroking her back, her head comes all the way up and back, so she's looking at me upside down, and the she seems to want to walk backwards a little. i know she's not doing this because i'm doing a super good job of petting her either.....curiouser and curiouser


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2009)

*Help!*

Here is a helpful link, if you wish to use it:
www.internationaldovesociety.com/ 
If you go to the site directory, there is a lot of useful help on what to do with sick birds, etc. 
Actually, I discovered this site when all my ringneck hens started laying soft-shelled eggs. 
Anyway... I hope that pigeons is alright.

Snowy_pied_chic


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

estewart said:


> so here's the new curious behavior. i pet the pigeon when it's time to go home for the night, and when i start stroking her back, her head comes all the way up and back, so she's looking at me upside down, and the she seems to want to walk backwards a little. i know she's not doing this because i'm doing a super good job of petting her either.....curiouser and curiouser


I appreciate you taking such good care of this bird, and she does sound like she is feeling better.

Have you treated her with Baytril or another antibiotic?

It is possible she may have a neurological health issue or had somekind of trauma that she is showing some symptoms of now , like PMV which requires only supportive treatment. 

Have you checked this link, and the symptoms?

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12248


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

thanks for the link. i've been doing all kinds of uncertified diagnosis. i don't think it's true star gazing because it only happens when i pet her....i thought maybe someone would tell me that pigeons do that sometimes anyway, or something.....she was sitting on a chair this morning with out me having put her there. at first i thought i forgot her up there last night when i finnished cleaning, but yeah right! why would i warm her brick up and then NOT put her on it! plus there were poops all over the clean floor, so i know she did it on her own....HEY! she just got back up there again! i went and checked and she's sitting on the chair looking proud! i'm totally stoked for her!.....maybe i should start posting in the pet pigeon section instead of this emergency one.....


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sometimes they won't show symptoms, until they are excited and/or stressed.

I have a friend who has a bird with residual effects of PMV. He will sometimes walk around with his head totally upside down, other then that he is fine. He is happy, has his own bedroom and loves to watch TV. They make wonderful pets.

Sounds like she would make a wonderful pet.


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

yes...i must admit the size and docilness of this bird is very appealing to me. here's my drawing of the head, and i think this drawing is darn accurate.


http://http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k167/TheStupidestGirl/?action=view&current=pigpose.jpg


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## estewart (Feb 4, 2009)

*ND rescue pidge!doing great!*

this pigeon has made a miraculous recovery!!! she flys around the room, drinks and eats normally, perches on open doors and roosts up high at night on the tallest book case.

she took a bite out of every begonia leaf on my best plant, so i took this as a hint that she wanted some greens. she gobbled up the sprouts i offered her, but not in front me....just 5 min later they were all gone.

she refuses to bathe still. 

i don't see any neck twisting at all anymore, and maybe she did just have an awful crash. 

i don't see any reason to keep her cooped up, and i'm planning on releasing her back to her flock.....should i wait till it's warmer though? i feel like i should.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

yea, being you are in ND, won't hurt to wait....


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