# What causes this grizzling



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Hello, well went to a pigeon market someone put on yesterday. Didn't know it was going to be so big. Just had about 25 birds i needed to sell so i went. My reject really but some of these people really liked what i had. Spoke with a man Jim Hayward for awhile who is president of something and able to judge all breeds. He was telling me that the people there (which was almost entirely foreigners) really like the whiter birds. So i though i might go back through my remaining 15 birds and see which i wanted to keep. My brother also traded two birds which both sides of the trade came from the same person but the bird is heavily pied. So im planning on making a pied white. 

Anyways i was wondering what is this gene that causes this. Is it undergrizzle? That is what i believe it to be but im want to check.


----------



## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

I think undergrizzle is just the opposite of what you have there. My undergrizzles show the white adjacent to the quill with dark edges. Not sure what to call that form of grizzle. Maybe standard grizzle?

Jim


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I don't know. Surely just normal grizzle is possible. These come from a long line of homozygous grizzles i believe going white. So it could just be that. I have one bird where some tail feathers have only acouple flecky almost at this point its so white.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I would call it stalk marked. (**** grizzle blue) it could have under grizzle but you cant see it because the bird is so white


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks like a typical homozygous grizzle.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Alright hmmm. Thought something else because some are much whiter than others. Is it possible to go all the way white on a blue based bird? Aren't most that are out there ash red. Ash red is just a lot faster at getting there?


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Most completely white grizzles are ash red. I don't know if you can go completely white with a blue base and grizzle unless pied genes are involved


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

well most of mine have piedbald in them. Just got one the other day which is mostly white flighted and white tailed along with being a homozygous grizzle and not mottling in the shield just a grizzle head.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Pied genes are confusing because as we all know there are many types.
I'm sure you could breed whites from pied blues just like you could breed them from ash red grizzles. Its all about selection.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

well, ill just have to see what i can do. Currently have room in my lofts to breed it up.


----------



## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

breed the stork marked bird to any non grizzled/ non pied bird and see what you get.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

im not that interested, i don't have to many birds old enough to pair up right now that hasn't been paired up already.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I agree with Becky, that is just normal homozygous grizzle. It is important to remember that grizzle has variable expression, and can be affected by many other modifiers as well. Some homozygous grizzles only have the tip of the flight and tail feathers dark, while others have markings on the shield and neck. I've even seen a homozygous dirty dark t-pattern homozygous grizzle, that had the whole shield grey, with a salt and pepper effect similar to what normal heterozygous grizzles have. If you then add the myriad pied genes to the mix, you will almost never be able to accurately predict the exact phenotype of the offspring. On the other hand, you probably also won't have two birds that look alike either. ;-)


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree with pigeon key that this bird is **** grizzle ( stork marked )and could be undergrizzle. We would not know as the grizzle would cover it.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well I have been looking at the photos shown here, and I do see grizzle. I feel that there are other modifiers at work here. If one checks the make up of Almond you will see that Grizzle is one of the modifiers in the Almond make up. ALMOND cock St//+ CT//CT e//+ G//+ K//K Now the hen used to breed Almond is a KITE (+)b//. CT//CT e//+ G//+ K//K .
"In this mating,it can be seen that one-half of the progeny will be almonds (both hens and cocks). It should also be noted that the autosomes carring recessive red(e) and grizzle (G)will segreate independently,giving rise to several almond bred colorations not yet described.Obviously both parents are Heterozygous for (e) and (G)." this is a quote from QUINN'S BOOK, An Introduction to PIGEON SCIENCE, if you have his book go to pages 98 and 99
I realy would like to see a picture of the whole bird and one of the parents of this bird. * ..GEORGE


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That is interesting that grizzle is part of almond. I already figured recessive red was needed because it's also needed for a good quality kite.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes Interesting, I had never heard of grizzle being part of the almond genotype. I guess I am thinking of the ESFT which is where the classical almond phenotype originated, No mention of grizzle in this classical almond look but we all know you can put any modifier with almond to vary the look. I am not sure if the bird in this photo has almond in its genotype but its possible maybe. Print do you know if this came from an almond or deroy or anything like that?


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* When I look at the picture of the wing there two small cover feathers that seen to show what might be red grizzling. I have a very old pc with a small screen and this makes things a bit differcult if any of have a more up to date monitor (SCREEN) take a look.
Now we know that the e gene (recessive red) does not mask white, so any white feathers or markings are not covered by recessive red.There for the white grizzling could be hiding recessive red*GEORGE


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I can post pictures later, it has kite but I have other birds though from the same group that have some intense grizzling. The familily has red and kite in it. I think almond in tipplers is rare.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It's definitely a blue based grizzle and the red is just bronze. Which could be from split RR (kite) or just bronze like many blue grizzles are.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

You kinda made it sound like net recessive red is kite? Anyways it's kite bronze which could be split recessive red. Not all kites are split for red and not all reds carry kite, all improved ones probably do.

Come summer I plan on taking my K//+, Ct//?, e//+, V//+ back to his mother which is K//K, Ct//?, V//?, e//+, G//+.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I couldnt get a good one without holding the bird, but really i wanted to know was about the grizzling not the kite.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Print Tippler said:


> You kinda made it sound like net recessive red is kite? Anyways it's kite bronze which could be split recessive red. Not all kites are split for red and not all reds carry kite, all improved ones probably do.
> 
> Come summer I plan on taking my K//+, Ct//?, e//+, V//+ back to his mother which is K//K, Ct//?, V//?, e//+, G//+.


I meant kite and/or split RR. Het RR is needed for good quality kites.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yeah, I know that. But what is considered a good quality kite? I want to work towards a **** kite het red t pattern then I'm not het or **** dirty and probably **** sooty. I can do all that real fast but sooty. Introducing that would take time.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

george simon said:


> If one checks the make up of Almond you will see that Grizzle is one of the modifiers in the Almond make up. ALMOND cock St//+ CT//CT e//+ G//+ K//K Now the hen used to breed Almond is a KITE (+)b//. CT//CT e//+ G//+ K//K.


I also have never heard of grizzle being part of the almond make-up. But I assume this is because there are so many different standards when it comes to almond. Some want spread, some want kite and rec. red and some want dirty. It makes sense that some would want grizzle.



Print Tippler said:


> I couldnt get a good one without holding the bird, but really i wanted to know was about the grizzling not the kite.


This picture of the spread wing really does show the effect of the kite (or whichever bronze this is) rather well. Looking at the posts it seems everyone is at least agreed on the fact that this is a homozygous grizzle. Maybe dirty, probably neither sooty, nor smoky; maybe het. rec. red and possibly kite.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

i think this bird is **** kite het grizzle t pattern het recessive red and het or **** dirty










son is het kite t pattern het recessive red and at least het dirty.










hope to mate these up later on and see if i can't get some good solid kites.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

george simon said:


> * When I look at the picture of the wing there two small cover feathers that seen to show what might be red grizzling. I have a very old pc with a small screen and this makes things a bit differcult if any of have a more up to date monitor (SCREEN) take a look.
> Now we know that the e gene (recessive red) does not mask white, so any white feathers or markings are not covered by recessive red.There for the white grizzling could be hiding recessive red*GEORGE


Could be het rec red but its quite obvious from the flights that this bird is blue with kite, Not **** rec red.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> I couldnt get a good one without holding the bird, but really i wanted to know was about the grizzling not the kite.


For sure - basically there is nothing different about the grizzling, Its in two doses thats all.


----------

