# need help with baby doves



## mecmusic (May 22, 2007)

Hello _ I found 2 baby mourning doves (maybe 1 to 2 days old) on May 
16th. A cat attacked the nest and the parents did not come back after I put them back in their nest. I called 3 different vets ( we do not have a rehailitator in this area) and they all told me that there was nothing I could do and to let nature take its course!! The babies did not seem to be to hurt, one had a little red abrasion under its wing that has since healed. I brought them in and warmed them immediatley and have had them in a quiet place since. I have been handing feeding them baby formula from the pet store as directed on this site...they chirp and are very active but the last 2 days their crop looked bloated after I feed them (I am not overfeeding). I tried massaging their crops and have not fed them for about 13 hours now. This morning the one baby's crop seems to be empty and the other baby's seems to be almost empty. I put some water in a spoon and they did have a very tiny bit but the one baby with an almost empty crop seemed to bloat up up like I filled him with air in his crop. Their poop is brown with a little white and a wet texture (not too runny and not hard) I don't know what I am doing wrong. I want my babies to be ok. Can someone please help me? Anything would be soooo helpful. Thank you soo much, Patty


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is there any way that you can post a picture? Sometimes, it's one of those deals where if poop (or more importantly, the solids thereof) are coming out the back end on a regular basis, you might not be doing anything wrong. 

Do you have a means of weighing them?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In a bird where solids are not moving through, there are usually the urates (reduced urine) and a dab of bile. Solids are different although the bile will be mixed into them. It's hard to describe the difference between the two poops, especially for a bird that small, but poops with solids smear differently. You can take a full poop sample and emulsify it in clear water in a small glass vial and solids will settle more.

I have seen the kind of puffiness that you're describing in pigeons that I've raised as well as ones growing in the nest. I believe that we sometimes have panicked and treated for what is sometimes normal. Some of the treatments may have caused the bird to actually get sick if it wasn't before.

I just raised one from the egg a couple of months back and when I thought that was a problem, I slowed down on the feeding. The immediate result was to slow down on the poop. I decided to try accelerating the food and I pretty much immediately got more poop. So, the problem was with my perception, not the bird.

Pidgey


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## mecmusic (May 22, 2007)

*baby dove pictures*

Here are some pictures....they have a little bit of dried food on their chests! These pictures were just taken and they haven't eaten anything in 13 hours now. Like I had previously mentioned, I tried to give them some water in s spoon and they took a very small amount (maybe 2 sips) and he bloated right up! His chest has deflated a little in the last 1/2 hour but it is still big.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they're actually looking pretty good. I've usually passed the dove babies that I've gotten off to a dove person. To tell the truth, I'm one of those folks who is tube-feeding by this stage of the game and that might minimize swallowed air and whatnot. I'd probably just keep following the advice on the KayTee instructions.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, the babies in the loft that grow the biggest usually have a front end that looks as big as the back end. There's other stuff in the section that you're looking at and thinking is all crop so you might not have them quite as full as you're thinking.

Pidgey


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## mecmusic (May 22, 2007)

*I fed them some food*

I fed them and both totally bloated up again. The one baby I can seem to massage the gas out...I hear it coming back out. But I can't seem to get it out of the other one (the biggest one). His chest looks and feels like a balloon. I watch the chest cavity just blow up. Am I over reacting? Thanks for all your time. Patty


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

What darling babies........I do think there is a problem with air in the crop, but I have no idea what to do about it. Just wanted to say......stick around, we've got many here that are familiar with doves and they'll be in and out.......good luck.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Patty, thank you so much for rescuing these little dove. 

Can you let us know exactly how much you are feeding them at the time and how often? Are you using the food/water ratio Exact gives on the package for newborns?

If you can, purchase some plain yogurt and a product called Benebac powder (I believe it is available from places like Petsmart). Once you have them, let us know and we'll go from there.

In the interim, until you can get the plain yogurt, try giving them some apple cider vinegar water - mix one teaspoon to 1 gallon of water and give a little of this to them every 2 hours or so.


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## mecmusic (May 22, 2007)

Hi - I live in Canada and we don't have the Exact formula that I always read about...... what I had available to me is Tropicana baby bird hand feeding formula. I hope that this isn't what is causing their ailments. I am feeding them anywhere from 5 to 10 cc's of formula every 4 hours about 5 times a day. They were doing great for the first 6 days and then this crop problem. I am very afraid to tube feed the doves so I feed them using a method I saw on the Internet with a syringe with a bulb at the end that they can stick their beaks into. I pull their little beaks out and clean off their nostrils to make sure they can breath. The last few times I have fed them, I see their crops blow up with air, so I stop feeding before they are probably full .....but I get scared that I am going to kill them. I will go out and get the yogurt right away, but the closest Pet Smart is about 45 minutes away. I tried the apple cider vinegar water last night and they would drink a little but would shake their little heads ( I read a 15 to 1 ratio water to vinegar???) like it may have been to sour??? I have never taken care of doves before and it is a really scary but fulfilling time. I hope we can solve this problem. Thanks so much, Patty


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

At 15-to-1, that's a bit steep. That'd be almost 17 tablespoons per gallon. Normally, folks go with two.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Patty, as tiny as they are, I would go with 5 cc of formula about every 3-4 hours for the next couple of days. I don't think there is a problem with giving them the formula mixture you're using. Personally, we used to prefer the Exact formula for parrots but I think they are no longer making that. By Friday, I would go with about 8 cc through Sunday, then increase it to 10-12 until you work up to about 20. Maybe it's just me but 15 seems a bit much that frequently. They do need time to process what you've given them before the next feeding.

It may be they are sucking in too much air when they are feeding so give them a break fairly frequently from the sucking of the formula.

The vinegar/water ratio you gave is way too much vinegar. Seems like 1 tsp to 1 tbsp per gallon of water would be better.

Another thing - make sure they are kept warm and away from drafts. If they get cold, that can affect their crop emptying also.

One last thing (I think  ). Be very careful to handle only one dove at the time and don't allow them near the edge of a counter if you're feeding them in the kitchen because doves can get so excited (more so than pigeons) about eating and topple off very quickly. A friend of mine actually feeds baby doves on the floor because of this.


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## Anton (Apr 4, 2007)

Hi Mecmusic,

I have a dove that I have been feeding since it was found as a baby. 
Here is a video that I posted earlier in another thread:
Large File
http://boktor.us/Doves/FeedingBabyDove.mov

Small File
http://www.boktor.us/Doves/FeedingBabyDoveSF.mov

Where do you live by the way?

Anton


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mecmusic,



Mix three Tablespoons of Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar ( "Braggs" is the brand of choice, and may be got at any Health Food Store) to a Gallon of Water, and use THIS 'Water' for their formula mixing and drinking.


Baby Doves or Baby Pigeons can and reliably do get Yeast and or Candida infections from how people feed them...and the ACV-Water will take care of the problem.

The conspicuous 'early' symptom of which is a Gassy Crop, inflated Crop, 'Air' in Crop ( fermenting food in their Crop, and infections of the Crop lining and down from there)...and if it progresses, then a complete shut down of their entire digestive system, toxic poisoning of their entire system from fermentaton by-products, loss of appetite, listlissness, withdrawl, and slow death.




So, begin now, waste no time on this.



I have raised a great many wild orphan Baby Doves and Pigeons and I have had no problems with them.

Often, those Babys brought to me which have been cared for by kind people for a four or five day time pending their finding me, these Babys tend to have Gassy Crops and were becomeing listless and dim and no longer peeping ( Candida and or Yeast infections)...while, no Baby I ever found or was brough pronto, ever had or ever developed these problems.


I attribute the causes to some confluence or tho factors -

Babys not kept properly warm...

and or, formula-feeding practices which permit or encourage these problems.



I would be glad to offer more info on feeding, and keeping them warm, if you wanted.


I personally think the 'Hagens' is the best one of all, so, glad you have that one on hand, it is hard to get here for some reason.


However, I have never used it ( or any other powder-food ) just plain, ( rather, I use the Hagens or the K-T or other as an ingredient in a recipe, ) and regardless, there are many fine points to how one mix, how one keep, and how one pre-hydrate the formula and so on which are not explained in the instructions.


So for now, get the raw ACV and begin that...and of course make sure they are definitely 'warm' at all times, all the rest of the time, before and after feeding.

Warm meaning that they themselves, through and through, are warm...and they will feel 'warm' if in your palm if they are, and if not, adjust the warming method so they are. If they are panting, they are too warm and of course that is to be avoided also.

They need to be about 100 - 104 degrees Farenheit, through and through.




Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Patty,

Looks like you have gotten a lot of good advice here. The only thing I would add is to try and be sure that solids from the formula are not accumulating at the bottom of the crop causing a blockage. If this is happening, you might be able to see it as the crop skin is still fairly translucent but should also be able to feel it by gently palpating the lower crop.

Terry


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Also, make sure babies are kept warm enough. If they chill, that may cause crop stasis.
Daryl


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## mecmusic (May 22, 2007)

*Thank You*

I am willing to listen to any advice. I have never tried raise doves before. Only gaping birds twice previously. I have been keeping them in our downstairs bathroom with the door closed in a box with a heating pad in it and a little make shift nest on top of the towel covered pad, for them to sleep in. I have a little heater on the floor in there that is controlled by a thermostat.... it comes on every once and a while. The room is warm when I am in there but not sweltering. I have thermometer in the box with them and it reads between 90 and 100 all the time. Should I use plain low fat yogurt in with their formula? I would appreciate any advice. I have just fallen for these little guys and would be really upset with myself if something happened to them. They still chirp a lot and stand up when I come in the room. Is this a good sign still? How long before this gassy crop goes away. Thank you all for taking the time to help me and the babies . Patty P.S. - ANTON, I live in Welland Ontario ( near Niagara Falls)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Patty,
> 
> Looks like you have gotten a lot of good advice here. The only thing I would add is to try and be sure that solids from the formula are not accumulating at the bottom of the crop causing a blockage. If this is happening, you might be able to see it as the crop skin is still fairly translucent but should also be able to feel it by gently palpating the lower crop.
> 
> Terry




Yes...good mention...

They too easily end up with a somewhat resistant comforming 'slug' of thickened formula n their Crops, and this can make problems.

It can be massaged gently and worked between one;s finger tips, after they have drank, to help loosen it or get it to pass.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If they're swallowing air then it's not a gassy crop. There are true cases of crop stasis that's usually a problem with tainted food or real illness. During such times, a serious fungal infection of the crop can occur, like candidiasis. Sometimes, it's initially brought on by canker (not cancer), which is a flagellating protozoal infection. The worst part of that is usually a "gone overboard" immune response that does more damage to the local tissues than the protozoa themselves. Anyhow, that can cause a true blockage which slows or stops up the works. In such a case, crop stasis is a secondary effect to a primary cause that you'd better discover and take care of soon.

Kinda' from what you've described to this point, it'd be my guess that that's not what's going on here--I think they're just slurping air, probably because they're trying to eat faster and more and it's being doled out too slowly for them. The bigger they get, the more and faster they can eat.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mecmusic,




There is a lot to all this...in every way.


The temps are likely not warm enough. 'Sweltering' for you would be about right if they are to be warmed by the ambient heat in a room, or, careful use of a Heating Pad set in a box on it's side, with the Nest in the Box bottom, and a light cloth over the open side.

I do get the impression from the images and your descriptions that these Babys are rather sedate or languid...and, this is not their normal manner.

If all is well, these owuld be very active, assertive and vigorous Babys, flapping their little Wings like 'Humming Birds' almost, come feed times.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20628

Is a recent thread in which some similar issues were being considered.





http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/

Shows some causual images of feeding - there are germain text captions which may benifit your curiosity -




http://good-times.webshots.com/album/547324376ZDjOCU

Also...


Lastly 

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/512124277uXlSSR

Showing a simple and very effective 'Warm Nest' arrangement...



How are you feeding them? Details - ?




Gotta run...I will check back later...


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Kinda' from what you've described to this point, it'd be my guess that that's not what's going on here--I think they're just slurping air, probably because they're trying to eat faster and more and it's being doled out too slowly for them. The bigger they get, the more and faster they can eat.
> 
> Pidgey




Hi Pidgey, 



Could be...


I never had any do that, swallow Air when eating for their Crop tio inflate, but others might.


Still, intentional observances with making and keeping the formula, and, in feeding...the use of ACV-Water in any situation in which even a suggestion of such problems appears...is merely good practice.

And, can prevent 'serious' unambigious eventuations of inflating 'Gas' which along with their causes, then become emergent and far more challenging or tragic for the neophyte caregiver, than a proper praxis or regimen would have been in any way daunting, in the first place.


Anyhoo...


Baby Doves are SO wacky! Those little Wings can get going SO fast in their nose-bag enthusiasms, you can not even see them flap...they are just a blurr...


Maybe not yet at the age of these two, but soon..!



Nighty night...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Finally found a specific description of this so here's a new term to us folks: aerophagia. Here's the reference from page 825 of AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION:

"*Air in the Crop*
Bubbles or filling of the crop with air is usually caused by aerophagia. It occurs most often in stunted birds that beg constantly for food, but has also been observed in young birds of many species (especially cockatiels). Slowly delivering food will contribute to aerophagia because the chick attempts to gulp the feeding formula faster than the food is provided. Some inexperienced hand-feeders will confuse this condition with crop stasis, subcutaneous emphysema and filling of the cervicocephalic air sac. Air is easily distinguished from food or fluid by transilluminating the crop. Visualization of blood vessels in the crop wall can help differentiate between air located in the crop and air located in the subcutaneous space."

"Severe aerophagia decreases the amount of food the bird can consume and may contribute to stunted growth. Feeding a nutritious formula at a steady rate will correct the problem in some birds. If aerophagia is persistent, the ingested air can be carefully removed (“burped out”) and the bird immediately fed before it can gulp more air. In some cases it may be necessary to tube-feed these neonates."


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Finally found a specific description of this so here's a new term to us folks: aerophagia. Here's the reference from page 825 of AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION:




Hi Pidgey, mecmusic...



> "*Air in the Crop*
> Bubbles or filling of the crop with air is usually caused by aerophagia. It occurs most often in stunted birds that beg constantly for food,




I would have to wonder what further information might illumine 'stunted' Birds who beg constantly.


Hand raised too 'soon' and lacking various enzymes and flora for digestion? And or formula which lacks something they are innately wishing to have?


Mere reports of 'hand feeders' about 'begging constantly' leads me to quesiton what they are feeding them, more, than that there may be 
something constitutionally deficient about the Bird-Baby themselves...




> but has also been observed in young birds of many species (especially cockatiels). Slowly delivering food will contribute to aerophagia because the chick attempts to gulp the feeding formula faster than the food is provided.



Makes sense...






> Some inexperienced hand-feeders will confuse this condition with crop stasis, subcutaneous emphysema and filling of the cervicocephalic air sac. Air is easily distinguished from food or fluid by transilluminating the crop. Visualization of blood vessels in the crop wall can help differentiate between air located in the crop and air located in the subcutaneous space."



Good to know...




> "Severe aerophagia decreases the amount of food the bird can consume and may contribute to stunted growth.



...if indeed they have this constantly and are never fed 'enough', yes, I suppose so!




> Feeding a nutritious formula at a steady rate will correct the problem in some birds. If aerophagia is persistent, the ingested air can be carefully removed (“burped out”) and the bird immediately fed before it can gulp more air. In some cases it may be necessary to tube-feed these neonates."



Ohhhhhhhhhhh...poor little ones, oye...


These are generalities about various Species of course...and good to know.


I am pretty confident that any occasion we may be told about with Baby Pigeons or Doves, should be prudently regarded as probable Candida, since this complaint can be very easily caused or found in them, and from various contributing causes...


...and, because it is easy to treat with (useing the ) the ACV-Water ( for mixing the formula, and for drinking occasions) , which becomes at-once a viable prophilactic against Candida even if there was none originally, given the typical practices which too easily do occasion it.

Probably any novice useing K-T or similar, would do well to use ACV-Water for all mixing and drinking, just to be prudent...


Thanks Pidgey, good find...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, see, Phil, I'm a'thinkin' that it can be a vicious cycle when somebody is hand-feeding (not tube-feeding)--you're feeding the hungry little guy too slow, it slurps some air, you think gassy crop so you wait for it to go down which it doesn't for a long time, you assume it's crop stasis so wait even longer for the next feeding and, voila'... a stunted baby! I had that with Morty early on so I did a crop swab to check for yeasts: nuthin'. I finally decided to heck with it, if he was going to be pooping as well as he was then there was no reason not to feed him the full amounts. He did much better after I stopped worrying.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...yes...


The poops are always a good measure of what IS passing through...or are the only measure of what is passing through...Lol...

A Baby with a static Crop, will not be pooping much, or pooping at all after a certain point.

A 'Bubble Crop' with a steady uninterrupted production of poops, is therefore likely to be merely Air, and not an illness or infestation/infection making Gas.


As you know, Pigeon and Dove parents never wait for their Baby's Crops to empty, but keep them topped-off, and or decidely 'stuffed'.

I tend to do the same, if less so somewhat...but also I am feeding small Seeds in a slurry of other ingredients after they are a week old or a little less...


Certainly the feeding method will determine not only ingredients and consistancy, but whether the Baby is liable to be gulping 'Air'.

At least this Air cab be gently 'burped' out appearently...which can make room for more food...


Kinda funny in it's way...'Burping' a tiny 'Peeper'...


Phil
Las Vegas


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