# How long does coxoid take to work?



## BHenderson

I have a baby pigeon that I spotted in the massive crowd of pigeons that have been left to starve by the council in the main shopping street in Hammersmith. They have been gathering there for years but the council put up a sign recently "Please do not feed the pigeons". Some of them find their way to the church green but many of them are not doing well. I really hate my own species sometimes. I have to try and control my temper with people who try to stop me feeding the pigeons, I was quite rude to some 50ish guy who was telling me the pigeons were vermin and should not be fed. I told him where to go.
He was even more annoyed when he saw me catch one of the babies and put it inside my coat to keep it calm and warm.

Sorry about the story, I had to tell someone. I got this baby pigeon home and he is showing the classic signs of coccideosis. He is looking puffed up and hunched over, he hugs the radiator when he can, he is thin and weak(which is why I spotted him, he was the only one who didn't fly off with the flock). He also has runny mucous like droppings but they are not green as far as I can see. He is still eating and has some fight in him, I was able to catch him because he pushed himself to the front when I was letting the pigeons eat peanuts from my hand. I love a fighter, he deserves to have a chance.

I used Harkers Coxoid to treat all the birds(about 6) as it appeared to be the only instructions on the bottle. He has had two days of drinking the water mixture but still appears hunched over and fluffed up. He also loves the warmth still.

Should he be improving yet or does it take longer? Should I maybe syringe feed him some of the Coxoid drinking water to make sure he is getting enough. I don't want to wait too long and he gets too weak to make a recovery.

Quick advice would be welcome, as I say I don't want to wait too long and he gets too weak.

Thanks.


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## John_D

I'm not keen on water-based flock treatments, as they do not ensure that any or all affected birds (whatever the condition) necessarily get the right dose. That said, it would be a minimum seven days treatment and maybe twice that in stubborn cases.

I prefer individual pills like Harkers Coxitabs (contains Diclazuril) which used to be Appertex.

But, we have to use what we can get, really.


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## BHenderson

Ah I have an odd appertex given me some time ago, could I give that to him/her? It says on the coxoid not to mix it with other medications that do the same thing, so I guess not.

I have Harkers 3-in-1 but almost killed a young bird with it because she was under weight. This little'n is a bit on the thin side as well.

I guess I will have to wait for the coxoid to work, unless you think I could risk giving him/her the appertex?


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## superflyer

I like Veta Farm's Trizole it seems to be not so dangerous.


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## Jay3

If you take him off the treatment in the water, then the next day you can give the appertex. That would be okay, but you need to repeat it in 10 days.


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## Jaye

I agree with Jay...stop the water-based med, give him the Appartex. You will need to repeat the Appartex (or any clazuril or diclazuril, which is what that active ingredient is) in around 10 days. So you should be able to find some more online or somewhere, in the 9 days in between, I hope.

In addition....in my experience, Coccidiosis is often a secondary infection which gets out of control because of another initial malady. Very rarely does the coccidi get out of whack all by itself. 

I am assuming you have checked your friend for canker and he/she is clear of it. I am also assuming you are handfeeding to get his/her weight up.

If I were in this situation, and a vet visit was not an option, I would also start a wide-net antibiotic (cipro/baytril, penicillin, or amoxycillin/augmentin). And perhaps a wormer (ivermectin).

As always, thanks for being there for your friends.....

I applaud your public defense of the flock. Perhaps you can somehow segue them from the old feeding area to another one nearby (the church green?)


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## BHenderson

I will do my best to show the other pigeons where to go, they do usually start to follow each other. I have doubled the food I have coming in but there are quite a few of them and I hope there are some other people who will help feed them. Its such a horrible thing to see, and for no other reason that some people think they are 'vermin' and make the place untidy. I consider them to be one of the few pleasant things left in the city.

I am keen to get this little'n onto the appertex because the coxoid seems to be taking so long to work. I think Jaye that he just had a rough start in a big flock that had just had its main source of food taken away. I have taken home a number of sick pigeons from this area, most have not survived.

I agree that I should encourage eating with a little peas and sweetcorn, but in the past I have felt that some of the pigeons that were young and very underweight may have died in part because of the mixture of medicine I gave them(in particular I have had problems with Harkers 3-in-1 which is fine for a big healthy bird but is too much for a small bird)
I have Enroflox here, and I also have Ivermectin, but again I am worried about overloading this little body with too many medicines? what do you think?


It looks like appertex has been discontinued, so I will have to look for an alternative. Is this a reasonable alternative?
http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/ind...t-for-coccidiosis-in-pigeons-and-raptors.html

It seems Diclazuril is getting hard to find, why? has it been superseded? All the treatments I find for coccidiosis seem to be the same as Coxoid, either powder or liquid to be mixed in the drinking water. Is this now considered the better way to treat coccidiosis? Maybe I should have stuck with the coxoid?

I also have this -
http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/ind...nellosis-paratyphoid-by-belgica-de-weerd.html

May be an option if the appertex does not improve his condition?

P.s. Harkers 3-in-1 seems greatly favored as an all round pigeon treatment, but I nearly killed a young pigeon about the same size as this one with it because it was not strong enough to deal with the de-wormer apparently. I also have this though, if people think it is worth the risk.


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## John_D

Harkers Coxitabs (contains Diclazuril) which used to be Appertex.


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## BHenderson

Thank you, thought it was strange I could not find the replacement for appertex.


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## Jaye

Coximed....your first link...is the same stuff, too. Get that. It is either clazuril or diclazuril and it works fine. The only thing with the Coximed is....the pills are kinda large so I usually break 'em in half and file down the sharp edges before administering.

As John noted earlier, drinking water as a delivery system is usually a poor way to medicate a bird showing significant signs of illness or weakness. It can be OK to use drinking water meds as a preventative....but once a bird has something full-blown, that method will not get enuff meds into the system fast enough.

I think if your friend is underweight he/she needs supplemental feeding ASAP. I suggested veggies but if you prefer doing formula that is fine...but again, in the weakened state you describe, it is unlikely he can provide himself with enough calories. Plus, as you describe his propensity for being near the heater....he is susceptible to getting pneumonia due to his underweight state. Again...nutrition, delivered fast, is gonna help that out quickly. 
My avian vets have told me more than once that there comes a point in starvation where the bird cannot actually start gaining weight on their own again without human intervention and a real insistence on getting food into them. You wanna do what you can to make sure your buddy doesn't go there. 

I appreciate your thought on this ~ you don't wanna feed so aggressively that it overwhelms the young one. I feel the same way. You have to find the balance; but it still sounds like supplemental feedings are needed here.

Obviously don't stress the little guy out, but I would say doing at least 3 supplemental feedings a day (as always, make sure the crop is emptying in between) is really the way to go.

I would actually start the antibiotics, too. I think it is a judgment call, but again given his weakened state and the likely presence of coccidiosis, I would bet that there's another infection going on in there somewhere.

I have had some success in the past with moving a flock's feeding location some. It takes a few weeks, and you move the location gradually toward whatever the new location will be. Am talking maybe 100 feet or so every 4 days....sometimes it works fine; they only need to see that a few pigeons are eating down the lane a bit to catch on fast.

Cheers.


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## BHenderson

Thank you Jaye, Your advice is much appreciated. He has had the appertex now and and I hope to see some improvement. At the same time as I gave him the appertex I gave him his first hand feeding, just a few to get him started, but I will feed him 3 times a day from now on probably once with formula. I picked him out of a crowd, its impossible to treat all the birds that need it, but sometimes one catches your eye as with this fellow.
I will also use the Enroflox. I am a little worried about too many medications rather than too much food, too much food will just make them sick but too much medication could finish off a weak body. As with all the little ones I find she is very sweet, and has some fight left, which in the past has been missing in the ones that die. I nearly killed a little one who came back to my house when she was ill and I gave her a Harkers 3-in-1, apparently the dose of Wormer in those tablets is a little on the high side and the following day she could not walk. Luckily she recovered but I do not want to take such a risk again and the Harkers 3-in-1 are only for the bigger birds.
I am doing my best with the birds who have had their food cut off, but there is a lot of them. I have noticed two things in the past couple of days, one old lady who is feeding bread to them regular as well and also someone is feeding them early in the morning before anyone is around to see. I am really pleased about this because I could not feed them all and I am grateful for all the help I can get. I have just lost an appeal for my disability allowance and I have to go through the claims procedure all over again which is going to leave me short for a while. I will do my best to keep getting 2 20kg bags of food but I may have to drop to 1. I will do what I can.

Again, thanks for the detailed reply, its when you have one in the balance like this that you need as much advice as possible.


P.s. that may have been you who told me about the Harkers 3-in-1 haveing a lot of wormer in it, I cannot remember. If it was thank you.

P.p.s do you prefer the Coximed over the Harkers coxitabs(2.5mg) because it has a higher dose of diclazuril(5mg)?


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## John_D

Just on your last point, it is probably going to be easier and faster to get the Harkers product, as Coximed is not produced in the UK or EU and may take longer to obtain. I did have some which was from Jedds in the USA, and their stuff takes about a week to arrive. You could always give 2 x Coxitabs (one on 2 successive days). I think Merca Systems sells the Coximed, but despite the appearance of their website, they are not actually based in the UK.


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## BHenderson

Its a good point, and from the look of the little fella he is going to need a second dose. He seems ok sometimes and then he fluffs up and goes to sleep again. I have yet to give him some Enroflox but I will at next feeding, I did not want to give too many drugs in one go.

I will check around and see how long it will take me to get the meds from various places.


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## Jaye

BHenderson said:


> Thank you Jaye, Your advice is much appreciated. He has had the appertex now and and I hope to see some improvement. At the same time as I gave him the appertex I gave him his first hand feeding, just a few to get him started, but I will feed him 3 times a day from now on probably once with formula. I picked him out of a crowd, its impossible to treat all the birds that need it, but sometimes one catches your eye as with this fellow.
> I will also use the Enroflox. I am a little worried about too many medications rather than too much food, too much food will just make them sick but too much medication could finish off a weak body. As with all the little ones I find she is very sweet, and has some fight left, which in the past has been missing in the ones that die. I nearly killed a little one who came back to my house when she was ill and I gave her a Harkers 3-in-1, apparently the dose of Wormer in those tablets is a little on the high side and the following day she could not walk. Luckily she recovered but I do not want to take such a risk again and the Harkers 3-in-1 are only for the bigger birds.
> I am doing my best with the birds who have had their food cut off, but there is a lot of them. I have noticed two things in the past couple of days, one old lady who is feeding bread to them regular as well and also someone is feeding them early in the morning before anyone is around to see. I am really pleased about this because I could not feed them all and I am grateful for all the help I can get. I have just lost an appeal for my disability allowance and I have to go through the claims procedure all over again which is going to leave me short for a while. I will do my best to keep getting 2 20kg bags of food but I may have to drop to 1. I will do what I can.
> 
> Again, thanks for the detailed reply, its when you have one in the balance like this that you need as much advice as possible.
> 
> 
> P.s. that may have been you who told me about the Harkers 3-in-1 haveing a lot of wormer in it, I cannot remember. If it was thank you.
> 
> P.p.s do you prefer the Coximed over the Harkers coxitabs(2.5mg) because it has a higher dose of diclazuril(5mg)?


I have no preference as to the particular brand, as long as the active ingredient gets in there. Whatever happens to be more easily available to you will do.

I understand your hesitation at medicating with the antibiotic....some people might say that given there is no clear indication of infection it is unnecessary. But as I said, in the opinions of my avian vets, coccidia doesn't appear all by itself, it usually piggybacks on other infections; and with a Pigeon who is as frail as you describe, it is likely his/her immune defenses are quite poor right now.

I would not be concerned that the antibiotic will put him over the edge in any way, particularly now that he is getting more nutrition.

Glad to hear there are other concerned humans for the flock, as well. Keep up the good work.


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## BHenderson

She has now had all the meds and is sleeping again. when she wakes up she almost looks ok but she does not do much before puffing up and sleeping again,

I will let you know if I see an improvement. I am keeping the room warm at night for her, but tonight she has stayed in the box rather than hugging the radiator, hopefully a good sign.


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## Jay3

I wouldn't use the 3 in 1. Not enough of any one med in those treatments to cure anything. Besides, if you are treating for something, then treat for it, but adding a wormer to it is not a good idea. When the baby gets stronger, he can be wormed then. Those 3 in 1's and 4 in 1's just aren't what you want to use.


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## BHenderson

Its a pity but having had so many different people help me out at different times for different things, I have ended up wasting a lot of money when it is very short. Still you can only learn by your experience, and you learn to sort the wheat from the chaff as they say.
I realise that I need to buy individual medications for all complaints, and find out what medications are the best first. Older medications are more likely to have resistance but also things that do not work well in say America may still work well over here(UK). I am beginning to get a feel for things now so there should be much less waste of money. Unfortunately money is a bit tighter that it was at the beginning but like I say I waste much less.
I still need to make up my mind about the best wormer, there are apparently many types of worm, some rarer than others. The balance is between dealing with the largest number of worms but not being too toxic. Maybe I should split those treatments into individual worms.
Most of the really sick pigeons I find usually hiding somewhere because they feel so unwell, seem to be suffering from coccidiosis and possibly a secondary infection as has been mentioned, so the diclazuril and Enroflox are probably the best medicines for that. I would like to get a weak microscope as well so I can do my own diagnosis, I cannot afford to send off for these tests and obviously it is better if you know what you are treating. A one off expense for one of the Chinese microscopes may be a good idea, and a book to aid diagnosis. I don't know how powerful the microscope needs to be. I may seek out the help of someone soon on this front.

Thanks for your help Jay3. I will post back today to let people know hoe the little'n is progressing. I need to think of a name for her. I am keeping the house warm for her. She is spending mist of the day fluffed up sleeping over the radiator. Maybe the second dose of Enroflox today will start to make her look better. When she does move about she almost looks normal, but she seems to want to sleep for most of the day. I suppose that is the best way for her to fight it.


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## John_D

Hi

This may have been covered, but have you had a clinical diagnosis of Coccidisis, from samples? I ask because Cocci is not commonly a primary illness, rather an opportunist that can arise if a bird is already under par from another illness. Not always the case, but most often.

Like some other things (Trichomonas, Salmonella for example) Coccidia are usually present in some degree in a pigeon, and one indication of problems (not necessarily Coccidiosis as such) can be a high Cocci count. 

As for microscopes, we have one but we've never really mastered it, I have to admit. I don't have it here, so can't recall what make it is, but it was around the £100 mark with all the bits and bobs. It's about the level that amateurs will commonly be using. 

It can pick up a few parasites - various worms, Trichomonads, Coccidia and maybe a few others I can't think of, and it may be just sufficient to tell if there are bacteria in a poop sample. However, that latter isn't really much help, because there are beneficial and harmful bacteria floating around and that kind of scope would not be enough to identify them - and it's more important to know what medications they will respond to anyway, than the precise ID. It won't indicate virus, either.


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## BHenderson

Like I said I am not able to afford to send off for those diagnostic tests, so there is a bit of guess work going on here. I have given one appertex tablet now and she has had a second dose of Enroflox. She has not got any worse, but has not got much better either. I don't know how long it should take for her to show signs of recovery.
When I put a drip of Ivermectin on her back, the roots of her feathers looked a little red and sore and her feathers come out way too easy.
I am feeding her by hand three times a day and gradually increasing the amount I am feeding her. I was hoping she might start to show signs of more energy by now but she keeps hiding away and fluffing up and sleeping. She has some strength and struggle left in her when I pick her up for feeding, but she is obviously weak.
I wish there was something I could give her that would work faster, I have quite a few medicines her but none of them seem appropriate.


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## Jaye

Given no diagnostics, all we can do is make an educated guess. So your course of action is not a bad one. Quite honestly I wouldn't invest in a microscope. Put the money towards developing a good medicine chest. There are a number of threads here about basic meds to have on hand, but a quick/minimal version of it would be: 

a pair of wide-scope antibiotics, one aerobic and one anaerobic (Amoxycillin and Enroflaxin, for example), an anti-canker med or two (metronidazole, ronidazole, Spartrix), an anti-coccidial (clazuril based), a wormer (containing ivermectin at least, maybe a combo one also containing a second med), an anti-inflammatory (metacam, meloxicam) and a topical ointment which is not oil-based (such as Heal X Soother).

BTW....I don't know if _topical_ Ivermectin is a good idea. Perhaps there was some confusion there, or room for it. In my experience, the only way to administer Ivermectin to a bird is orally, with a tablet or in liquid suspension.

The sort of topical ivermectin used on dogs and cats externally would not be effective, I do not think. And it would probably cause skin irritation. So I would discontinue that (unless someone else here has administered it that way).


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## BHenderson

Yes the microscope might have been over-enthusiastic. I have quite a few of the mentioned meds. I have had trouble getting an internal form of Ivermectin and the same with metacam, you cannot get metacam in the uk without perscription. I have so far not found a vet who is willing to do more than put pigeons down so I have no way of getting prescriptions.

If there is a thread of this type on this board, I could really do with a thread that actually points toward products rather than generic definitions, from the descriptors on the product page I am able to make much better searches. If there is a thread that points to products, especially an internal form of ivermectin, I would love to know.

How long should I wait before deciding that the current medication is not doing the job? She is not getting any worse, but she is still feeling the cold and is still spending a lot of the day fluffed up. It could be food that is the problem and I am slowly pushing the food amount up, but I am unsure if we are hitting what is making her ill?


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## BHenderson

She has come out of herself a bit more today, but she is still feeling weak and she is mainly looking for the warmest place to sit and soak up the heat. She is not looking continually fluffed up though which is I hope a positive development. I need to keep the feeding up, she is so thin. I am giving her a lot of Kaytee with a syringe because of its high fat and vitamin and oils content, and I am supplementing with peas and sweetcorn. It is only increasing in amount slowly before she object fiercely
I am keeping the house very warm for her, a little too warm for me actually but I do not mind for a while. I feel sorry for the birds outside when the temperature is close to zero.
I need to get a heating pad as part of my equipment, but they are expensive so I will have to save up a bit.


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## BHenderson

I hope this isn't a false dawn! She has been feeding herself over by the food bowl on top of the box for about an hour now. She falls asleep every once in a while but when she wakes she continues to eat. This is the most I have seen her eat since she has been here. Like I say I hope she continues to improve, She is not looking so fluffed up now either. Do you think I should continue to hand feed?

I am really grateful for the advice from all who gave it, I have lost so many of these weak babies, if this one lives it will be a breakthrough. Maybe I will get others right now. Fingers crossed.


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## Jaye

That's great news ! Does she seem to be gaining weight ? If there seems a noticeable gain, back off the amount of handfeeding but do not stop, maybe cut back around 33%. I always wanna see verifiable weight gain before discontinuing handfeeding.

Excellent that she is beginning to eat herself.

Regarding metacam, yes it is hard to get sans prescription. I believe it can be acquired online and shipped from India, but I have long ago lost the link to those websites. I believe Charis still has that info, perhaps ask her.


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## BHenderson

She angrily refused to be fed by me last night, but she had eaten a lot herself and her little shriveled crop may not have been able to take that much food, so I did not push it. She is still sleeping plenty, but I really do believe that we have pulled her back from the brink(Like I say, I hope this is not a false dawn, I have seen birds suddenly look better just before dying, Fingers crossed this one has made it) She is still wobbly on her feet but she is able to fly even if she misses the target slightly. I think the morning feed is the most important and I do want to get the nutrients that are in the Kaytee Handfeeding formula into her.
It seemed to be the addition of the Enroflox that made the difference, unless the appertex takes a couple of days to kick in. Your feeling about there being another infection behind the coccidia was correct and is now burned into my mind, Thank you.

I may chase up Charis later, metacam is an important medicine to have because of the anti-inflammatory properties. I have been forced to use an opiate I have access to when pain has been an issue up till now, as in cases where tight string has been removed from feet etc, but I am not happy using something so strong.

Thank you again.


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## BHenderson

Ahhh.... it looks like I might have completely got this one wrong, or the little darling had several things wrong with her, she has started showing signs of PMV. She looks so raggedy, she has really been through the wars. She is moving about now and eating a lot considering where she has come from, but she is showing head shaking when she is holding a seed in her mouth. I think she may have had the fever that PMV starts with, and that has now broken, and now she is showing some of the physical signs. She is still sleeping a lot, and like i say her skin and feathers are really out of condition, but I think that will be fixed by a few weeks of decent nutrition.

Ill write up some more later when I have been watching her a bit longer.


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## Jaye

Keep up the antibiotic for a full week (I would do 10 days) and give that second dose of the anti-coccidial when you have it.

Could be she is a PMV bird, but you still wanna clear any bacterial infection just to narrow it down...sometimes bacterial infections show PMV-esque symptoms.

If it is PMV, you and she are just in for the PMV-shedding longer haul, is all.

Keep it up, you have done well by her so far.


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## BHenderson

I have actually bonded with this bird, having watched the suffering she has gone through an how thin she has got. She will be welcome to stay with the others. She was able to pick up the food ok yesterday but today I can see her continually pecking and missing. I have gone back to hand feeding her when she will let me, but sometimes when I squirt the thick Kaytee baby food in her mouth she looks so shocked, but I have no other way at the moment of getting lots of nutrition and vitamins and omega 3 and probiotic etc etc into her. I am also giving her peas and sweetcorn and I am sure she is managing to eat some seed. When I am holding her she looks around, at first I thought she was looking for somewhere to fly off to, but I realise now she is confused, PMV in some way changes the perception they have and at first it confuses them. Gayser, my other PMV pigeon is only now beginning to fly after a year and a half.
She is shaky on her legs and I sometimes think that when I am holding her to feed she would fall down if I was not supporting her. She is also twisting her neck right around when I am holding her, like I say she seems disorientated, but it is like I have seen in PMV.

I think I will call her Little'n, as this is what I keep calling her.

I am cleaning right through the night tonight, as the council housing officer is coming round tomorrow to see if she can find something to use against me to force me to get rid of the pigeons. I don't want to make it easy for her. Because I give the birds a lot of freedom, the only way of being sure the place is tidy is to do the tidying just before she arrives. Its times like this I wish I new some pigeon people locally so I did not feel like a one man army.
On a positive note, I have noticed other people leaving food out on the estate for the pigeons, so they can no longer pin it on me, that is something that gives me some relief. I knew I could not be the only person who feels the way I do, I might just take it a bit further than most because I am a loner.

I'll let you know how things develop.


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## BHenderson

I am being harassed with threats of sending the environmental heath round to my house again. Do I have to put my birds in cages? It seems very cruel. The size of cage you would need to make a pigeon happy would take up half a room anyway?

Little'n I think definitely has PMV, she is not able to feed by herself because she cannot pick up the food. We have developed a nice little routine between us though and I am feeding her 3 times a day. She allows me to hold her beak to open her mouth to put a pea in, and what I thought was her struggling is the twitch of the PMV. She happily swallows the pea once I have it far enough down her throat and sits and waits for the next one. 
She has become quite hungry and is putting away all the food I prepare for her, about 30-40 pieces of pea and sweetcorn. I am wondering if I am overfeeding her, or if I should keep feeding her until she pulls away?
Her body is obviously able to process the food now and is hungrily trying to put some fat on. She is still thin. I hope to see some weight gain soon.

Wish me luck with the environmental health people! If anyone knows of things I can do to make them happy please tell. Surely it is not that unusual to keep pigeons as pets, there is a whole web site set up to advertise what good house pets they make!


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## BHenderson

She comes out onto the shelf where her box is and stares at me, I think this is to let me know she is hungry. I am going to feed her every time she looks at me this way, tell me if I am doing something wrong.


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## BHenderson

Can someone tell me if I should add soaked cat kibble to the babies diet to help her build up, or just keep to the peas and sweetcorn. She does not like the syringe feeding of the kaytee too much so I don't give her a lot.(kaytee baby bird food)?


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## Jaye

A better thing than dog kibble would be parrot pellets, they are better formulated for pigeons (although dog kibble works well for birds which eat insects and worms and such). Something like Zupreem or Kaytee or LaFaebre's are some parrot pellet brands. Get the medium-sized ones.....I usually soak them in hot water until they soften but do not become mushy, then pop in the mouth like I do peas. Adding 10-15 of these pellet morsels per day should help the Pigeon gain weight quicker.

Regarding your problem.....if the agency harrassing you would lay off simply by seeing the pigeons caged when they come around to inspect...then buy some cages and put the birds in them when they come around. You should acclimate your friends to the cages a bit first, so they are calm inside them when the inspection happens.

Actually, for long-haul patients I have had, they came to recognize the cage as a place of respite after a few weeks.

Of course, when there is no inspection, you can let them out again. That would be my suggestion.

Lastly....when feeding the formula via syringe, rather than 'squirt' it, I prefer to just slowly press the syringe and lay some of the mush on their tongue toward the front and middle of the mouth. They usually close and swallow by themselves. This also avoids accidental aspiration.

Thanks for caring.


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## BHenderson

Thanks for the advice Jaye. Money is going through a period of change at the moment so the pellets may have to wait a bit, as with the cages.
She is quickly getting used to me and we are teaching each other how to better do things. We had already got to the point where I just push in the Kaytee much slower and allow her to swallow a bit at a time. She is eating a huge amount, I have increased the food amount twice, Kaytee and peas and sweetcorn, and she is still eating it all. She sort of flaps her little wings at me asking for more lol. I am increasing a bit at a time because I want to be sure she can eat and hold down all she is asking for. She is so thin, and now her body has recovered somewhat, it is urgently trying to put on some weight.
Her head shakes badly, especially when she has something in her beak. She does not try to eat on her own at the moment, and when she tries to drink she often misses the bowl the first couple of tries. I think she definitely has PMV, but she seems a lot happier, although she still sleeps a lot especially after meals. I am hoping because she is young she will recover well from the PMV.

Like I have said before, she is so sweet, especially the way she flaps her little wings at me when she is hungry, and its so funny when sometimes she tries to show me she really wants the food by diving at it when it is in my hand, and totally missing lol. I am getting really attached to this little bird, and it is helping me cope with the fact I have had to stop helping a lot of the birds around my house as I suspect the council are getting someone to note what I do with the birds every day.


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## Jaye

Regarding the council, just try to lay low a bit for a few weeks. I know when I was living at my old (rented) place, I was able to calm things down oftentimes with neighbors by just being less obvious about mydaily Pigeon goings-ons (not a word, but you get it).

I apologize, we are at page 4...did you ever get an internal wormer for your friend ? You are doing right by feeding aggressively...sometimes with an emaciated Pigeon it takes a couple of weeks to start seeing some significant weight gain. We just wanna make sure that there are no worms in there, consuming all you are feeding him/her.

Another product which is good for rapid weight gain is called NutriStat. It is a terrible smelling (but not to animals, I guess) jelly-paste which can be added to the formula. High-calorie, safe for birds. I usually would do about 50% of the formula feedings with some of that mixed in for 3-4 days. I think it helped. Available online, I hope in UK too.


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## BHenderson

In preparation for an inspection by a cleaning company on monday I have had to spend a lot of the spare money I had on cleaning stuff so products, including wormer, will have to wait. I hope to have some more money coming in soon. In the meantime would it be better to feed little'n some of the cat or dog kibble soaked in water? it might help her gain weight. She seemed very puffed up at the front and I was worried she had a growth, but I just think it is the way she is holding herself because of the PMV. She seems to be trusting me a lot more and comes out of her box and stares at me when she wants feeding, but when I woke her up for a late 3rd feed today after cleaning all day, she refused it and wanted to go back to bed. At least she is not outside in the cold and snow like some of the other poor pigeons. I will be up early to feed her as soon as I can.


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## Jaye

Kibble with that much animal protein, for Pigeons...I really do not know. I would be inclined to think it wouldn't help any with weight gain.


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## BHenderson

I'll leave the kibble for now. I can't remember who at the moment but someone who had experience of feeding weak coccidia pigeons back to health said she had had a lot of success feeding them kibble.

I noticed today that her droppings are almost pure liquid, but I am also feeding her plenty of liquid and she is on Enroflox which could be upsetting her a little. I think she has been on the Enroflox for long enough now and I will probably make today's dose the last. The dropping do not look unhealthy by the way, and she has started to generate some body heat of her own, she is warm when I pick her up now. It is hard to get her to take much of the Kaytee baby mix so I have gone back to putting the syringe down the back of her throat and gently pushing in 1ml. I want to keep giving her some of the kaytee because it is full of vitamins and omega oils etc, and I do not have many ways of getting that into her if she is not eating and drinking the normal water.

She seems happy and will just start to walk over my hand and arm and walk over the bed when she has had enough food. She does get the hump with me sometimes if I am not getting the food into her mouth very efficiently and she walks away for a while, but I can usually tell if she wants a little more.


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## BHenderson

by the way, little'n is looking a bit scruffy with old food and other things making some of her feathers stiff, can I bath her do you think? I am worried that because she is so thin she will be too cold when she is all wet?


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## Jaye

Yes, I know it might be tempting...but do not bathe a very underweight pigeon. Even if you keep the house super-warm, they can still catch a draft and that would be very bad given her/his already compromised state.

Just be careful when you feed the Kaytee you do not aspirate her. Obviously she is still here so you have not been, but for me....I am not confident at formula in the back of the throat...too close to the windpipe.

It sounds like she has stabilized. If the antibiotic has been going 7-10 days, yes it's OK to stop it now.

This reminds me of a friend of mine, Hayesy, who had a similar condition. We found her/him so emaciated she was near death, had some canker too. Got her back into releasable health at a good weight and then I decided to see how her flying ability was, and the first time she/he did an indoor fly-test, she went backwards and sideways.

Ended up being with me for 6 more weeks as the PMV ran its course.


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## BHenderson

I woke up late today because I was cleaning late into the night. Unfortunately breakfast for little'n was several hours late, and when I went to feed her she took a couple of pieces and then walked away. I may have upset her by making her wait so long, or maybe if she does not eat at the time she is used to she is not as hungry. I do not really want force feed her if I can help it, do you think its necessary? Or should I just wait and try again in a little while. She has not put on enough weight yet to safely go without meal. I am not good at opening her beak and putting a pea or a sweetcorn in over and over again, and she may have decided that she has had enough of that type of feeding. Unfortunately I have not seen her feeding herself, so I think this is the only way she is going to get any food.


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## BHenderson

Just so people know, I am continuing to feed little'n(I'm thinking of changing her name to tyke) with sweetcorn and peas and an occasional piece of cat kibble(about a 6/1 ratio). She is putting on weight now, but is becoming very attached to me, which I am not sure is a good thing considering what the council is trying to do. If the council does find a way to make me get rid of the pigeons, I am concerned that tyke's attachment to me will work against her. At the moment she is still very shaky, although this would be expected. She does try to feed herself, either by trying to take the food from my hand or by picking at the food in the little bowl I have for her. She is not managing either at the moment but is managing to groom herself a little and scratch an itch now and again. I am getting vitamins into her with the kibble, and I have made up a bowl of water especially for her with some of the probiotic and vitamin powder dissolves in it. I do not have enough for them all. Shortly I should have an improvement in my money situation and I will be able to start buying medicines and vitamin powders etc again, assuming the council does not find a way to remove the birds. My lawyer is supportive of what I do and I am to meet with her Monday to discuss tactics. She is much more optimistic than I am, I know how vindictive these housing officers can be. Housing officers think we should all live like them. Whatever happens I am always going to live in a way that others consider strange. 

Wish me luck, I need it at the moment.


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## Jaye

Good luck, keep it up. It can be a very lonely feeling trying to fight for Pigeons. It is great that you have legal assistance, it really is.


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## BHenderson

Thank you...... I really believe people sending wishes of luck, in the fight to keep the pigeon hospital going, makes a big difference. So please, if you feel inclined, send good wishes and luck my way. Its all going to a good cause.


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## BHenderson

I am a little concerned about the PMV baby I have been feeding by hand. Tyke has shown a wish to be on the floor with the other pigeons, and as they have all had PMV at one time or another I have let her. The thing is this morning she has shown very little interest in being fed. The first time I tried she ran away, but the second time she took a few bits of peas and Sweetcorn and a ball of baby food, but walked off after very little. I have seen her feeding herself from the bowl that the other feed from, also she has been taking some pieces of grit, but I did not think she had eaten enough to fill her up like a proper meal. Her droppings consist of a tube of solid with what looks like a puddle of spit around it. She is sleeping a lot, but she had always done that since the beginning. She has been drinking a lot of water as well, but I am keeping the place warm(maybe a little too warm?)

I could all be nothing, and she is managing and prefers to feed herself, but that is the first watery dropping I have seen in a few days and I am just concerned she may have something else wrong with her. Unfortunately I am still waiting to get paid my sickness benefit for January so I have been unable to get the diclazuril tablets yet. I have the Harkers 3-in-1 but I do not think she has put on enough weight yet to use one of these. She has put on weight by the way, and is showing less disorientation than she did at the beginning. She flaps her wings sometimes to give them some exercise, but I am just a little worried that she may be becoming ill again. I am letting the room cool off a little to see if this livens her up.
If anyone has any suggestions they would be helpful, otherwise I will just carry on as I am. I will allow her to eat the seed if that is what she wants to do, but it makes it harder for me to get vitamins and minerals into her. As soon as I am able I will put in the order for diclazuril.


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## Jaye

I don't think anything sounds too alarming. As long as her activity level seems OK and she has not become lethargic I wouldn't worry about it. It is good that she can now peck at food and even ingest some, and that her orientation is improved. So, you my have noticed some warning signs, or perhaps they are not. Just keep an eye.

I am wondering if letting her mix with the others is a good idea, however. If she has not shed the virus yet ( a possibility ) and since the others already have had it, there is a possibility of transmission still, I think. You may have been a bit premature in doing that.


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## BHenderson

Oh dear, I thought they developed immunity after having the full blown PMV rather than just inoculation which only gives temporary immunity. Its a bit late now but I will keep an eye out for any signs.
I'm glad you think the signs are not too serious, I will continue to watch her closely. I am hand feeding her up to 3 times a day so I am close to her a lot and she lets me examine her.
She still sleeps on my bed sometimes as Gayser can be a bit of a bully, but she wants to spend time with the other birds and I don't want her to totally imprint on me, so I let her go about her business unless I see her being bullied.

So far so good, lets hope for the best. Until the council are off my back I cannot take in any more weak or ill pigeons as they may try to use this against me, so tyke is being lavished with lots of attention lol.


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## Jaye

Keep it up. You know the red flags so just watch for those.

(Someone else can chime in, but my understanding is a Pigeon who has had and shed PMV can still get it again.....if I stand to be corrected, someone please do).


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## BHenderson

Tyke has started to refuse the hand feeding! She has put on some weight but I can still feel her keel bone quite prominently, so she could do with being a bit fatter. She prefers to dip her face in this big bowl of seed that I have put on the bed and she keeps diving in until she has knocked all the seed out, I then scoop it all up and put it back in and she starts again. I suppose its good in a way because she is learning to feed herself, but I am concerned that she is not eating enough to put weight on. I don't want to be struggling with her trying to force the food down her throat, so I am going to just make sure the bowl is always full for her to eat when she wants.

If you think I should do differently let me know. In all other respects she looks like she is recovering. She is adapting well to the shaking and disorientation and is even a little aggressive to other birds that come over, so she must be feeling quite strong.


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## Jaye

One think which may work. With some Pigeons I helped, if I could get them to drink water....I would then mix up some formula in a watery consistency and dip their beak in that, and they would drink the formula. Maybe try that (?)

Good news that she is eating (or trying) on her own.


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## BHenderson

Good idea i'll give it a try...


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## BHenderson

I forgot I did not come back to update this thread. Tyke, as I named the above pigeon, made a full recovery except for the PMV damage to her nervous system. She has become one of my most affectionate pigeons and we go for walks together almost every day. She seems a little prone to coccidia infections, but I have a good Diclazuril medication now and it is never a problem. Thanks for the help.


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## BHenderson

Thought I had forgot to update this thread, but I did not check properly.


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