# Crop question



## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

Hey there again- I have a question- again, I have looked up info on your site about the pigeon's crop. My baby pigeon's crop is very translucent and you can see the yellow food (Exact) filling the bottom 1/4 of the sack.
The sack looks like it is filled with air. and stays inflated. It is not hard, it is squishy- what I believe is normal.

Is this normal?

The bird is pooping & readily accepts food. The bird is ten days old and is eating about 12ccs per feeding. I have backed off a little bc I was concerned about the inflated crawl. What yall think?

As always, thank you for your help. He is still small for his age.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

With no featherscovering the crop You will see the food. As for air. If it really looks say balloon type you have a problem. But if it just apears full and formed I think you are ok. Ckeck the throat for canker. As canker does cause a youngbird to inflate the crop And not expell the air. But agin Sounds close to normal without seeing the bird


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

I will send /attach a picture of him tommorow (emailing myself from my camera phone and it takes a little time to get to my box) Anyway, can you tell me if you think it is normal or if I have a problem? (when you look at the pic? Id greatly appreciate it. 80)


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

Ah, cant get a pic that shows anything in any detail. It is probulary ok, I can see a line where his food is and he is pooping, so he is probulary fine. Most of the pics of crops online are of much older birds. 
or dont show any detail.

Anyway, if you got any links, please let me know- thanks! Sal


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Slic75,


Candidiosis is not an uncommon consequence of canned-powder-fomula-feedings, nor is it unknown in feral youngsters, if much rarer.

This might be the early stages of a Candida infection, and, to be prudent, you may wish to start useing a mixture of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the tune of one-and-a-half Tablespoons of it, to a Gallon of good pure Water...

Use this for when you offer them a drink...and use this for mixing their formula with also.

Make sure your Baby is constantly warm, and do not feed them if they have become at all chilled or droopy in any way, untill they are really warmed up again.

If it was me, I would not delay in beginning the ACV Water.

If they do not have Candida, the ACV Water will still be good for them anyway, for that matter.

If you like, if you mix this in a gallon jug, after say four days, fill up whatever space there is with plain water, to reduce the ratio somewhat...and then just keep useing that untill it is all gone.

Normally, as a preventitive, one mixes one Tablespoon to the Gallon.

My own method, in suspected cases of Candida, has become to mix one and a half Tablespoons to the gallon, and then, after some days, to water it down somewhat as I mentioned.

Once they are done with any appearance of Air in their Crop...you could start letting them have small whole Seeds and some fine Canary Grit mixed with their formula, if your feeding method permits.

Make sure also that their formula is very thoroughly mixed, perfectly homogeneous, and that it is 'wrist' temperature when you feed it to them, and if anything err on the soupy side..or at any rate, make sure it is never thick. The consistancy of a 'good' Milk-Shake is probably about right..

And also, ONLY warm it in a cup, in a pan of hot water, and not with a Microwave. The Microwave can make 'hot spots' that will burn their throat and Crop as it is fed to them.

Any already mixed formula should be discarded at day's end...refridgerated in a covered container between heatings-uses...and made new each morning.

What is your feeding method?


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Slic75,

My little Squidget did the same thing! I did the ACV mix, which is one tablespoon of apple cider vinager in one gallon of water, which I used to make his formula with! During feedings when I could see air, I would very gently massage the air in his crop till he burped! He learned to do it on his own after a few times! After about 5 days with the ACV water, then I used regular water. But used ACV about twice a week after that!

Denise


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

[/B]


Slic75 said:


> Ah, cant get a pic that shows anything in any detail. It is probulary ok, I can see a line where his food is and he is pooping, so he is probulary fine. Most of the pics of crops online are of much older birds.
> or dont show any detail.
> 
> Anyway, if you got any links, please let me know- thanks! Sal




*The crop should look like an inflated bean bag, somewhat squishy, but not over inflated balloon.*

maybe this link might show a pic:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sal, make sure you keep the baby warm.

Maggie


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

*hi*

Thanks for the advice- after looking more closely at the pics yall mentions- I think my guy is alright. He is white (pink skin) so it looks a little weird- just learning all this stuff- thank you for your help. I am keeping the temp @ 90 as suggested in several readings. He is getting fatter, still small for his age, but has been consistantly alert for the past 3 days. He has started to reconize my voice and tells me he's starving. Will babies continue to act like they are starving (screaching & flapping) even when they are full? 

Another question: I have 2 babies, two different pair of parents. They both left the nest this morning.
The one that is 5 days younger(from my blue pair) already looks like a full grown pigeon except for some yellow "hairs" and is eating fine. 

The other one (from my pink pair) who is older looks unmature, and is skinny. I fed him some very deluted Kaytee with a little grit and a little seed bc he looked dehydrated. Both birds are on the ground. I put water out and feed close to them. I am very worried about the older one. I have not seen the parents pay attention to him. I checked on him tonight and he is alert, still skinny. He was running around begging for food from the other pigoens when I found him, and he got a little picked on. He only hit the ground this morning.
My plan is to check his condition in the morning, and feed some more deluted Kaydee if he still looks dehydrated and skinny and try my best to keep him with the flock. What do yall think? It is wierd how the babies mature at different rates, I guess according to how much they are fed. Any suggestions? Oh - these are not hand raised, they have been with their parents since day one. The skinny one's sibling died- it was real sudden. I checked on him in the morning and he was fine- the evening he was dead.  
That was 2 wks ago. The other pigeon (from the blue pair, sibling never hatched out. Just to give yall some history. I may have just answered my own question. The blue baby got more food so he grew faster. The pink baby had a sibling so he got less food. But now what? I am really worried about the pink baby. Do you think I should put him back in his nest? he was "sceduled" to be set on the floor of the cage tommorow- but he let his self out.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi slic75,


Might be the smaller one, simply did not get enough food there for a while...if his parents are still wiling to feed him, by all means, let them do so, and make sure they themselves are abundantly supplied with good Seeds and so on.

Could be the little one has some kind of worms for that matter...so...if you can get a fecal exam from an experienced Vet or Avian Vet or send a sample to 'Foys'...might be worth looking into...

Are these Birds outside then? 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

*hi*

Hi there,, thanks for responding- Yes the pigeons are outside. They have a loft, with also an open area. I was a little worried about them getting cold, but after the babies are about 8 days old, the parents rarely sit on them, and they are all doing fine. So I guess this is normal. (these are my first babies) 6 in all.

They are all doing fine except for the pink pair's babie. I have the pigeons on a worming scedule, but have not wormed the babies yet. I was not sure at what age to start worming them. So things I read online says that wormer can cause feather problems in babie pigeons. what do you advise?

I do have to take a sample to the vet next wk. I guess I need to get a sample from the skinny baby. I hope I can keep him with his rents. 

Do you think feeding him Kaydee with some seed & grit is ok until I get his wieght back up? Thank you for your help.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

Oh- and the pigeons get 1 hour of flying time, of course.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Slic75, 

You're really not supposed to worm adults when they are rearing babies and you shouldn't treat the babies themselves either at this early age. As for the Katee, make sure you keep it mixed a bit thinner than recommended on the package at each stage. You don't need to add grit to the formula either right now. Make sure you don't microwave the formula and that it's made fresh each time and mixed very well.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

So I shouldnt add seed to his mixture either? This is a weanling who is not doing well. Just want to be clear.  
He is very skinny. (only been on the ground since yesterday morning)

Thanks, Sal


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yes, you can continue adding seeds to the formula, use small seeds and soak them for an hour or so, drain and this is fine. The youngsters really don't need any grit at this time. 

And as suggested by Phil, see about getting a fecal test done at your vets' to see what's going on. Have you checked the throat of this baby to make sure it's nice and pink in there...no little buttons or white/yellow obstructions? Canker can be an issue with young failing to thrive.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

thanks- I will recheck his throat- and give him a little Kaytee w/ soaked seeds. If he is still getting picked upon, I may remove him for a day or two, until he regains his wieght and strength. Thanks for your help- just learning here 80) Sal- I will update ya.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Sal, 

You're welcome, good luck and DO keep us posted


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

Hi there - rechecked his throat, it looks fine. His beak on the outside has red marks, were I assume the other pigeons picked at him.
We I went to check on him, he was harassing the other young pigeon, a few days younger than him. (which already looks full grown)
The skinny pigeon doesnt have much for tail feathers, and no feathers under his wings. I fed him, and when I put him down, he looked content. He was panting when I fed him, so i fed him a little at a time. I got about 15 cc's in him. I guess I plan to keep pouring feed into him until he gains some wieght.
I will get a fecal test on him monday.
Do you think I am doing the right thing thus far?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Slic75, 

I think you're doing all you can for now, until you can get some stools samples to your vet. The red marks are probably from the other birds pecking at him. You'll want to keep a close eye on this and perhaps even bring him inside if it gets bad. This pigeon is 15 days old isn't it? He's got a little ways to go yet before all his feathers are in.

Glad to hear there is no canker nodules in his throat though.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

He's 28 days old. He was born Nov. 20th. Thats probulary no good that he is not fully feathered. My pigeon that was born on Nov. 21st (from another pair) is fully feathered and is doing great. It is really cool to see him/her after all the work that went into the pigeons and their loft.

The one that is not doing great, sibling died several weeks ago. Do you think the parents might be lacking? This is everyone's first borns. The parent pigeons are about 14monthes old.

I have done alot of book learning about them bf I got them- been planning it for 2 years. The "old timers" around here, just let the pigeons do and if they die they die. I have a too much heart to do that. Anyway, any death could mean there is a loft or desease problem, so investigating it does pay off.
ANy way- any comments after finding out the pigeon is 28 days old?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Slic75 said:


> Do you think the parents might be lacking? This is everyone's first borns. The parent pigeons are about 14monthes old.



Hi Sal, 

This is a possibility, the time of year isn't the best for raising babies as they are *usually* more vibrant in the spring/summer months as well. It really is difficult to say what is going on here. We can't see the bird, and we can only go by what you are telling us. None of us are certified vets either and there is nothing like having a good one to help you out with any problems or concerns with your birds. 

You sound like a good, caring person and the youngster in question seems to be doing ok for the moment. Is this pigeon attempting to eat on it's own at all? All you can do is try to help out and take it from there.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

No- He's not trying to eat on his own. He's going around and trying to eat from the other pigeon's months. He's very demanding. I will probulary end up taking him in for a few days. I wish I could tell if the parents are feeding him. I have not seen them feed him but am not watching 24hrs of course. I will just wait and hand feed him n the pen today and make a decision if his condition worsens. Thanks for your help- much appreciated


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

I saw another bird, other than his parent, feed the little guy, Is this normal?
In any case- thank God- I ll still keep an eye on him and check his condition first thing in the morning. Thanks, sal


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Sal, 

This isn't really normal for a parent to feed another's chick but I have heard of it happening. Sometimes, single birds will do this or some parents are just more forthcoming, lol. In any case, this is good that he's able to beg from another bird to get a meal.

Do keep an eye on him and supplement the feedings as you've been doing and just hope for the best with him catching up in size and development. Post any findings you learn from the fecal test when you get the results


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

At the birds age It should be abl to eat on its own. If it is getting picked on. Best to do would be to pull it out of the main bird area. Put it in a pen of some sort with feed and water and grit. Where it will not have to compete for its food. It will mature better that way And you will know how well it is eating on its own. Could even put a bird around its age in with it to help teach it to eat better For a few days.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sal,


I think if it were me, I would bring him indoors, and also bring indoors whatever paired/mated Adults will feed him, and their not yet weaned Babys also if they have any...and let him be out of the cold for a few weeks while he catches up.

You can feed him, they can feed him, and, he can feed hiself also this way.

Seeing the others pecking and eating he will soon get into the habit himself...and, you can keep a better eye on him also.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

I saw the younster eating on his own yesterday- although he still was begging alot & still has not got alot of weight on him, and still looks inmature. I have been feeding him 1 x a day by hand and feeding the whole flock alot in several different areas, so the 2 young ones can get enough food. Hopefully he will catch up soon.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

My young baby that I am hand raising seems to have taken a turn for the worst.  

His poo dont look digested anymore, it looks just like exact. This has been going on for 24hrs now. Also, one of his legs looks like it is bruised and he doesnt want to use it much.

He still is vibrant and eating good, and has not lost any weight as of yet. 
Any comments? I have been hand raising him since Dec 6th. and he is 11 days old.

Thanks for yall's help.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Slic75 said:


> He's 28 days old. He was born Nov. 20th.


Hi Sal, 

I thought you had said this baby was 28 days old 

There may be something wrong with this chick more than we know because of it's lack of proper growth. Were you able to contact an avian vet and get a fecal test done? 

With the Kaytee, make sure it's not microwaved, mixed VERY well (no lumps or dry powder at all), and served luke warm. Also, make sure it's not too thick. It should be made a little bit more liquidy than recommended per stage of growth it suggests on the package. 

Can you feel the crop and make sure it's emptying. If he's drinking on his own then this will help if there are any clumps that aren't passing through and you can also gently massage the crop to break up any clumps if there is any.

Still, there could be something going on here that requires medicine or a treatment plan. Try some apple cider vinegar in the drinking water. For two cups of water (1 quart) you can add 1/4 teaspoon of apple cider vinegar. If you have any probiotics and avian vitamins, now's a good time to start using those as well. Garlic can be given, either a gel capsule (human grade) down the throat of the bird once per day for the time being or you can cut up a raw clove and put a few pieces in the drinking water too.

I have to go now but I'm sure others will assist you if your post a reply.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

This is a different babie the 28 day old baby is in the pen with the others, he is the one that has been getting picked on. 

The hand raised baby was born Dec 4- sorry about the confusion.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

The fecal examine on the one that is 28 day s is ok- some coccidia, but the vet said nothing to worry about- she thinks since his sibling died, maybe the parents just have not been working as hard as they should. It is there 1st babies (the parents are 14monthes old).

The handraised baby, I am scared it will get too cold to take to the vet. And he is so small. His poo still looks the same, (like it isnot digested). He still looks healthy otherwise. The poo stinks bad like bad spoiled grain. I have been waiting til his crop emptys to feed him. Some times i can feed him 3x a day, but sometimes his crop isnt all the way empty and I feed him 2x. 
I will do the apple cider vinager thing today. 

Again, sorry about the confusion. I have 6 babies, one is 27days and is buetiful, looks like a full grown pigeon only smaller, the 28 day old is not doing very well, but is looking better, the other pigeons are in the nest and look very healthy, and then my hand raised pigeon is not doing to well.

Very confusing- sorry. I ll check back today and see if anyone has posted.

As always- thank you thank you for your help.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the problems with handfeeding chicks with products like Kaytee is that the formula will spoil rather quickly even if it's in the crop. So, when there is crop slowdown or crop stasis, it can sour very fast. Usually, it's a yeast problem and one of the products we use to help with that is a Nystatin based additive. Medistatin is a version of that and can be gotten from Jedd's and other places:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=71&SubCategoryID=758&ProductID=3085

That's a product that knocks Candida albicans down. It operates by contact with the yeast only so it's given orally so that it'll slide down the esophagus all the way through the piping. It's not absorbed from the alimentary canal so it only works there and doesn't have any systemic activity.

Of course, often the chick has something else going on that caused the crop slowdown in the first place. That can be more difficult to find. It can even be Salmonella (paratyphoid), an E. coli or other stuff including (a) virus(es) in your loft.

Just out of curiosity, are you feeding this guy by way of only giving him between 10 to 15% of his weight at a feeding?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Slic75,


...if they get chilled, their Crop processes and systems as a whole slow way down...

If they are not getting enough to eat, they will chill even more easily...

Pardner, if you have Babys you are raising, PLEASE keep them INDOORS and KEEP THEM WARM consistantly...!

Feed them adequately, offer them drinks of Water between meals...feed them maybe six, seven, even eight times a day, medium size meals so long as their Crops ARE functioning and the poops are pileing up. Feed till the Crop is 3/4rs "full" and...

How are you feeding them, what method?


If you like, I can send you an e-mail off-site to your regular e-mail, with a lot of info on how to feed them so they are happy and easy and enthused with it...and it will be easy on you also.

Just write to me at my regular e-mail

[email protected]

Any Baby of two weeks or so can be fed TUNS of small whole Seeds, and or Seeds and formula combo.

And, unless they are ill or neurologically damaged, they will almost always be happy to learn to peck and self-feed IN ADDITION TO being fed, at that age or very soon, with the right guidance and gentleness and being WITH them.

If you are not getting fourty-to-fifty poops-a-day, per-youngster, you are not feeding them enough.

...if you are not spending time WITH them, and being their surrogate parent, you are confuseing and frustrateing them.


Ya gotta get with it!


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas...


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

Im not getting that much poo- the (blue) pigeon is small for his age, I am feeding about 24cc a feeding. I have been feeding him according to how full his crop is. I have been keeping him inside & keeping his temp @ 90 degrees. He is inside & I have been feeding him from day 3, (He was born dec 4) bc he was weak and his sibling is 5 days older and hogging all the food.
Anyway I am feeding him via the syring with the top cut off and a rag with a hole- and he accepts it well, and screams to be feed all day.

The other pigeon who is 28+ days has been w/ his parents since birth. He had trouble weaning, lost alot of wieght and he doesnt look right. I am comparing him to a pigeon a day younger than him. The younger pigoen looks just like an adult, only smaller. the sickly one (Ill call him pinkie, bc he is from my pink pair) looks rather juvenile, with a large beak and inmature feathers. I saw him eating on his own- & he looks better 2day so I didnt give him any exact.

Out of the babies, only these two are having problems, so 4 out of 6 aint too bad, but of course i want 6 out of 6. 
So hopefully I am not totally not with the program. I have 12 adult pigeons in all, with 5 being paired. One had broke both of his legs and i had him in a cast for 6wks, he is doing well, but the other female wont have nothing to do with him. But i think he is happy to be alive. So in other words- I am trying real hard here.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Slic75 said:


> The handraised baby, I am scared it will get too cold to take to the vet. And he is so small. His poo still looks the same, (like it isnot digested). He still looks healthy otherwise. *The poo stinks bad like bad spoiled grain.*



This youngster should be checked if it has stinky poo-poo as that can be a symptom of E-coli, or another disease. Additional probiotics in the formula will help with digestion.

A drop of colloidal silver in the formula will clear up yeast/ candidia.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

Thanks, his poop is back to normal. I have ordered some proboitics from jedds. The pigeon is 18 days old and still has no feathers- my other babies are coved with the yellow "down", i guess you would call it.
Does handfeeding greatly reduce how fast he grows?

Thanks a bundle, Sal


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If a good formula is used. Hand fed babys an grow faster then young birds fed by there parents. Now I have in the past. JUst used chick starter formula. I would put a small aount of chick starter in a bowl add water stir it heat it in the microwave. Stir to a soupy mix. Make sure it was cool enough to feed. Also thin if to thick. And use a cathater type syringe. Put it in the syringe. Place the tip to the back of the throat and fill the crop 2/3 rds. full. Worked great. chick starter is also medictaed so it treats and feeds. and can be used at 5 days of age througfh weaning time. Can be bought local most often. Works on pigeons. hook bills ect. If it hardens some in the crop Most often from a not as soupy mix. You just put a little warm water in a syringe. Shoot it down the crop massage the crop and the mix disolves agin. Chick starter was aroung long before these new formulas was on the market. AND as I said It works real easy. And you can watch the birds grow. As agin Has plenty of what a young bird needs.


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## Slic75 (Dec 13, 2005)

thanks, I have been using Kaytee Exact- so I will see if I can find some Chick starter- who is the maker?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Slic75,

Probably soaking Seeds is dangerous, as I know from when I used to do this, pre-soaking dried Beans or Peas and so on, for making people Soups, they soon stank of Yeasts and would start fermenting, even in a day.

Anyway, no need to pre-soak anyway...for feeding Birds or for making Soup for one's self.

Too, it is easy, if one is careful, to merely tuck a Baby or young Bird into one's shirt next to one's stomach, to keep them warm for driving somewhere or as may be.

Just be circumspect and remember they are there...

I have done it many many times.

Or, if someone else is driveing, keep the Baby Bird in 'hand nest' inside your shirt next to your armpit or next to your stomach.

Good luck...

Phil
Las Vegas


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