# K-Factor and poor training returns



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

It happened to me yesterday....20 Birds tossed @ 50 miles....Got 4 home @4:15 PM.......As of 12pm Wednesday 7/27,I have 15 home....Looked on YouTube,and saw that others were having the same problem....A guy in Chico,Ca...A lady in Chicago etc had bad returns yesterday....The sun spot was listed @5 RED...That`s very bad....I never check for sun spot activity when training..Maybe I should...I always check before shipping birds to a race...I hold back most birds when it`s going to be RED 4 or higher.....Alamo


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## miken (Jun 23, 2010)

Are sun spots the same as solar flares?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

miken said:


> Are sun spots the same as solar flares?


Yes K factor is what it is more called today Back in the day just high solar days. And the gravity on high K days seems straongfer You can watch the birds flay after you toss them Sometimes they fly just a little higher then barb wire fences About 5 foot off the ground. And high days I think effects there homing ability Perhaps agin magnetic changes.


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

re lee said:


> Yes K factor is what it is more called today Back in the day just high solar days. And the gravity on high K days seems straongfer You can watch the birds flay after you toss them Sometimes they fly just a little higher then barb wire fences About 5 foot off the ground. And high days I think effects there homing ability Perhaps agin magnetic changes.


Thats a new one for me & it make sense,,,VERY INTERRESTING STUFF...!!!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Solar Storms on the sun,change the magnetic field on earth...Just 2 or 3 degrees one way or the other,and the birds PASS UP home,or can`t find the loft even if they are within a few miles....Alamo


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## Remarc Lofts (Nov 13, 2007)

I use this website for the K factor and didn't see anything unusual yesterday or today.
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/rt_plots/kp_3d.html

Alamo, do you have a website you recommend?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I use the same and it was only a 2 in the green yesterday.
Dave


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I've gotta start keeping an eye on this every year I lose a big chunk of my team on one bad toss and most of the time it's after they've been to a spot multiple times b4 I have that bad toss. Last year it was my 10 mile toss I had them there 4 times and was gonna jump them but there was traffic and figured what the hell I give them another 10 mile toss and jump them tommorrow. Well out of 76 birds only 38 ever made it home.


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## g-pigeon (Aug 24, 2010)

more things to worry about.

how long do these solar flares last? in other words for how long are the birds disoriented?


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

The "K" factor -Solar Flares-Frequency's we are sending to the Moon and back-is the least thing we have to worry about.
We have NO idea what kind of other contitions they have to fly through.
What "FUMES" they may encounter??--Can't breathe???? 
Did they stop and drink "BAD"water?
A Homing Pigeon is going to HOME and get home No matter what it encounters.
So we keep guessing and come up with all KIND reasons WHY they did not return.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

UPDATE......No more birds homed Wednesday after 12 noon.....Thursday morning,got one home @ 11;22 am....From the WEST direction....All other birds homed from the SSW as per the direction I train from....So it looks like the last 5 birds wound up WEST of my loft,and how far away I have no idea....I checked the site for the Solar Flares etc.....2 bars were RED and up to a #5 in the scale.....Alamo


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Alamo What site do you go to? I always thought the K factor was the same all over, thats what I get for thinking.
Dave


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Pete....Click on the web address on my posts at the bottom....On the left side home page...Click on weather/k-factor....On the weather page,I`m using the last web address K-Factor report...Alamo

PS:#1) So far by 5pm thursday,I have 16 out of 20 home.....3 of the last 4 missing are the OLDEST,and they are strong,and ALL are cock birds....Alamo

PS:#2) The bird that homed this morning at 11:22am,was not worn out,and just a little light of weight....Just like maybe a 200 mile race....Alamo

* So with that said,where are my other 4 turkeys ???*


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It's the opposite here! I'm proud of my birds. They beat us home everytime. We've trained them everyday this week so far with the same great results. Up over the trees and gone before I can get in the car and down the road.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I heard a few guys lost a number of birds recently also around here.
Kurps


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I studied a little about the migratory instinct of birds when I was going too school, so I have some knowledge of what it is that allows a bird (or fish) migrate accurately to a certain location. Without going into full details, some of which I have forgotten, I can jot down some of which I can remember. Please note that I got a “no credit” for this class because I didn’t go to class much and didn’t do much work. It was only by the grace of my personality that the teacher chose to give me a “no credit”, which did not reflect on my grade point average, and not an “F”, which did…so don‘t take what I say to be all fact. 

The earth has two poles, north and south, and the equator. There is a magnetic force that runs vertical from pole to pole. The magnetic north and south poles are slightly different from what we know it to be on a map as the north and south pole. I think it’s called geographical pole on a map and magnetic pole when referring to this magnetic force. Birds are said to be born with a magnetic sense which they use as a compass for migrating (or homing). There are different intensities of this magnetic force depending on the terrain, ie, rock formations, mountains, etc, and magnetic storms in space. The intensity of the magnetization differs from day to day and is changing constantly. The force is strongest at the poles and decreases at the equator. Birds from the north and south both migrate towards the equator. It is believed that birds are also born with this directional compass and the intensity of the force is what make a bird know it’s geographical location. Example, a bird from Alaska usually flies down and stops somewhere in south america near the equator. It doesn’t continue to fly to the south pole, because the magnetic force get’s stronger the farther it goes from the equator, so it’s inborn magnetic sense tells it to stop and not continue farther because the magnetic force starts to get stronger as it passes it‘s destined stopping point. 

In pigeons, it is believed that they as well use this magnetic force for navigation. Another factor is light. Short wavelength light seems to have a negative affect on homing while long wavelength light seems to not affect as much. I can’t remember what colors short and long wavelength lights are at the moment. This may explain why so many loses are during a perfect sunny day with no clouds in the sky. 

In pigeons, the level of experience seem to play a big role in homing. Experienced pigeons seem to rely less on the outward factors such as magnetic force and light to home, while younger birds do so more. Also, because the magnetic force runs vertical from north to south, birds flying on a north/south course should fare much better than one’s flying east/west because these are crossing the force lines. 

The eyes…they do have something to do with navigation. I can’t remember, but, one of the eye is the navigation eye and if covered, it can’t find home, or something like that. Been about 20 years since I first learned of this eye theory, or documented experiment.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have always used the site that Remarc posted, I guess the K factor is not the same all over. Learn some thing new every day.
Dave


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I would think that it wouldn't be the same everywhere because our planet is round and tilted. Certain places will be closer to the sun that others and perhaps be more heavily effected. If not more effected, then perhaps sooner than the others?


About they eyes, they have put lenses in pigeons eyes to make them unable to see, and they landed on the loft and on the ground within feet of the loft when they got home. I think the thing about the eyes that gives them an advantage is that they can see much better than us and they have a wider range of vision. They can remember over 1,000 images for long periods of time so I think that is why landmarks are so important. They more they see them, the more they remember them and could very well use them to get home. Why wouldn't they? It's familiar. Being able to see so well would help them see those familiar places. I'm wondering if their ability to see UV light helps as well. I know scientists are thinking it's helpful in picking out mates in a flock of seemingly identical birds. But do other things give off different colors in UV light too? Like if our birds were up in the sky and they looked at the land below them, would a forest of what looks like just a bunch of trees, look different from other groups of trees they pass? If that is the case, I'd think it would be easier familiar places. To us, it looks like a bunch of the same fields or the same trees, but maybe to them it looks a little different, and that difference catches their eye when they try to find home. I don't know, just wondering out loud. I haven't been in a biology/chemistry/any other sciencey class since 11th grade so I can't remember much about the light spectrum and whatnot.

I really like your theory on the flying east/west and north/south. We are flying as straight south as we can this year. They've had good returns from that direction. Moreso than any other direction it seems. So that may have something to do with it. But again, with every direction you can go, someone somewhere is being successful flying that way. In our combine, anything West or North ends up horribly wrong. It doesn't help that going North puts us flying against all the huge combines up North who are flying from the South. And the mountains don't help when going West. So just based on those two things, it would makes sense that a S or SW course would be best. And it is looking like due South is much better than SW for us. Again, could have something to do with the confusing magnetic lines. So now I'm wondering how many and how far apart are these lines? When I imagine it, I tend to see it like the lines on the map. But that's because I don't know any better, haha. I remember seeing a diagram of the magnetic field once and there seemed to be a lot of lines.

There are a lot of factors that come into play when you're trying to get your birds home. I truly believe that pigeons have a lot under their belt and use whatever it takes to get where they are going, if they are motivated. Sun, sight, sound, smell, magnetic fields, and just plain luck. Experience and healthy/fit birds is very important, in my opinion. As is motivation. We don't force them to come home, and if they don't want to, they simply won't! And as far as the theories on how they home, I still think the magnectic fields are possibly the most important, although all the others are important too. Perhaps the best birds are those who use all of their resources to get home, rather than just relying on one thing.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well there are people that will ground there loft Giving it an earth ground THINKING that it gives the birds a stronger relation to the loft location. PERHAPS. Sun problems effect even us. And any directions The birds can get home I think direction is effected more by winds As cross and head winds do slow the birds because they fly more of an arc or have to buck the wind. But any good bird can fly the 4 directions. Some areas south is flown year after year. Around the clock you have to breed different birds As they have different weather and winds. Plus threats. On high K days I would say the birds would have slower returns. But we have hawks, cell towers. hills .trees. mountions. cities. You name it. Even other race birds crossing the race line and birds mixing with them.But the old sun can stopp even our planes if it sends out to much energy.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

I would guess the temperature has a lot to do with it. A pigeon flying in 100% plus weather is going to get exhausted very quickly. I would think they would stop and rest and look for a drink, I don't buy the K-Factor theory and that's all it probably is, just a theory. I also doubt that magnetism has anything to do with their homing ability.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

grifter said:


> I would guess the temperature has a lot to do with it. A pigeon flying in 100% plus weather is going to get exhausted very quickly. I would think they would stop and rest and look for a drink, I don't buy the K-Factor theory and that's all it probably is, just a theory. I also doubt that magnetism has anything to do with their homing ability.


What is your theory on how they get home? And yes, I agree that temps are something everyone should look out for before releasing. I said it in another thread but I'll say it again here. There's a vet in S. Africa (Dr. Wim Peters) that wrote an article on whether or not pigeon racing is cruel. Temperature and other release conditions are a big part. He said in windtunnel training, the birds have shown that at temps over 30C (86F) they need water every 90 minutes.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

I don't really have a theory as to how a pigeon gets home. I wish I knew, but as far as I know no one has the answer. There are some pretty good theories about how they get home. Most likely all we will ever have are theories. Until I see some scientific evidence it will be a mystery to me. 


If I could fly I'm sure I could find my way home. In the morning if we face the sun the south is on our right and the north is on our left. Of course we would be facing the east with the west being at our back. If I flew high enough and far enough I'm sure I would recognize a landmark and be able find my home. Birds have sharp vision and would see and probably recognize a landmark easier than a human. That's the nearest thing to a theory that I can come up with.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Have you ever tossed your birds and noticed they were flying rather low. Have you tossed your birds And noticed they were slow to return. That can be because of high solor days K facter. Temps do make a difference. And some countries do not race the birds when temps are over what 85 degrees. And they make sure birds are fed and watered before release. In the U S many a club will race when they know temps can reach 100 degrees. and often the birds get home mud on the feet or oil. Because they had to set down for a drink. Either way a person sees it there has been much study on the racing pigeon. Iron found in the brain. The average person taken to a place they have never been 100 of miles from home. No use of modern things could not find home very easy. Heck people get lost rather easy compared to any othere form of life.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Cornell research bred YB`s in a WINDOW LESS building....When the birds were 2 or 3 months old,they were taken 20 miles and released....After 3 hours or so,they landed within 500 feet of the building/loft....I guess there was NO sun spot activity that day... Alamo

PS:500 mile race to NY and NJ a few years ago....Hardly any birds made it home,and most flew over the ocean and drowned...Birds were found as far north as New Hamshire....GO FIGURE !! The sun spots & storms on the sun were real bad...Do you still want to say it don`t effect pigeons ??? THESE WERE SOME OF THE BEST LONG DISTANCE PIGEONS IN THE USA racing....Some birds made it into NY harbor on ships...People said they were feeding them for many days....Alamo


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

Do you know if it was cloudy, foggy, smoggy, or maybe exhaust fumes got into their carrier? Anyway you look at it the K=factor is just a theory, it can't be proven.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

For the UN-beleivers here,race results with very bad pigeon losses,and poor race results,were found in conjunction with sun spot/solar storms....After 28 years of racing myself,and 50+ years by my dad,I think when scientists say "Solar Storms" on the Sun,diminish homing ability of even the best pigeons,I beleive what they say..IF YOU CARE NOT TO BELEIVE IT,that`s your business.....But please don`t tell me it`s not proven,when over the last 20 years or so,it has been proven....There were many times when I did not send birds to a race,because of this,and when the race was over,and many lofts lost birds,and the race speeds were very bad,I did myself and my birds a favor....I kepted them home.....Alamo


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

I believe it has Merit.Could be the exact reason for losses on what seemed to be perfect flying days.


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Birds navigate using all of the above. Why would they limit themselves?


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

Alamo said:


> For the UN-beleivers here,race results with very bad pigeon losses,and poor race results,were found in conjunction with sun spot/solar storms....After 28 years of racing myself,and 50+ years by my dad,I think when scientists say "Solar Storms" on the Sun,diminish homing ability of even the best pigeons,I beleive what they say..IF YOU CARE NOT TO BELEIVE IT,that`s your business.....But please don`t tell me it`s not proven,when over the last 20 years or so,it has been proven....There were many times when I did not send birds to a race,because of this,and when the race was over,and many lofts lost birds,and the race speeds were very bad,I did myself and my birds a favor....I kepted them home.....Alamo


By proven I mean scientific studies and facts that prove the theory. In any case it's not important enough to argue about. We all have the same goals breed good healthy birds that are competitive and can win. Most of all we should enjoy the camaraderie with our fellow members.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Nothing with pigeons is a scientific fact except they can eat, breathe, poop, and fly. LOL  Everything as far as how they get home, what effects them, etc is pretty much all theory. Actually, there isn't much in science that isn't just a theory. There's always exceptions! If you want to look at k factor before releasing, fine. If not, then that's fine too. I forgot about it so I never look at it. But I do think it effects them. Just my opinion though!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Ask your self this do you believe in god and jesus. But where is your proof that god is or ever was. Not the bible because it was written by man. Sometimes what we do not see we still believe in. And by that it does have meaning.


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

Alamo said:


> For the UN-beleivers here,race results with very bad pigeon losses,and poor race results,were found in conjunction with sun spot/solar storms....After 28 years of racing myself,and 50+ years by my dad,I think when scientists say "Solar Storms" on the Sun,diminish homing ability of even the best pigeons,I beleive what they say..IF YOU CARE NOT TO BELEIVE IT,that`s your business.....But please don`t tell me it`s not proven,when over the last 20 years or so,it has been proven....There were many times when I did not send birds to a race,because of this,and when the race was over,and many lofts lost birds,and the race speeds were very bad,I did myself and my birds a favor....I kepted them home.....Alamo


I agree with you 100% on this theory.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Reasarch have been done on pigeons and other animals concerning the ability to home, or navigate. That is a fact. There is little question about what it is that allows an animal to navigate thousands of miles to a spot they have never been before and come back to it's beginning. 

Of concern to us pigeon people, are the questions of why so many losses. All the reasons listed before, such as gavitational pull, sun spots, magetic fields, and others, are fact. What we don't know, or at least I don't, is the direct relations to homing and these activities. But, one can't be an educted man or woman and not believe all these factors have no affect on a pigeons homing ability, given that if a bunch of pigeons whose been to the 20 mile station five times gets lost out of the blue on the 6th toss.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

There have been some legitimate studies on the theory of how a pigeon navigates back to their lofts. As josepe said the theory has merit. But it is not a fact, it's just a theory, there are other studies that indicate that they read the terrain like we read a road map.


Although I'm not a scientist I am not uneducated about magnetism and electricity, it's not like I just fell off the turnip truck. I've worked as a electro-mechanical technician, senior electronic technician, and digital service technician. I held a First Class Radiotelephone license for many years, they don't hand those out for free. You have to take a very difficult test on electronics theory and communications rules. I've worked as transmitter and control room operating engineer for two different powerful TV stations.


As far as pigeons becoming lost from twenty miles out from the same location I don't have an answer for that, I'm not sure it even happened. You would think once they become airborne they could easily recognize familiar terrain and make it back to their loft. Probably several factors can be attributed to their homing ability.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Had a crappy toss today. We released a little later than usual but this is the third time they've been there (5 miles). Took the old birds too because this is a new course for them and I might as well train them from the direction while I'm out and about. We don't have many back now, a few hours later. And they all came in from the North, which means they overshot the loft (we were training from the South). It's hot (but not any worse than it has been all week/month/summer), and they had a tailwind. Probably met a hawk(s) on the way and got split up. I have yet to check the K factor for today but I will as soon as I post this.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Probably the ole K Factor.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

grifter said:


> There have been some legitimate studies on the theory of how a pigeon navigates back to their lofts. As josepe said the theory has merit. But it is not a fact, it's just a theory, there are other studies that indicate that they read the terrain like we read a road map.
> 
> 
> Although I'm not a scientist I am not uneducated about magnetism and electricity, it's not like I just fell off the turnip truck. I've worked as a electro-mechanical technician, senior electronic technician, and digital service technician. I held a First Class Radiotelephone license for many years, they don't hand those out for free. You have to take a very difficult test on electronics theory and communications rules. I've worked as transmitter and control room operating engineer for two different powerful TV stations.
> ...


So you know about the affects of solar flares on the ionosphere and the effects it has on navigation?


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

Xueoo said:


> So you know about the affects of solar flares on the ionosphere and the effects it has on navigation?


I know little about solar flares and how it effects navigation. Since I don't believe a pigeon uses this method to navigate it is of little concern to me.


I will say this since Alamo started this thread I did some research on this subject and I've read some convincing articles to support his belief. So, I can understand why some people accept this theory. Some of the other theories are also just as convincing.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

All of my birds are home. I still think it was a mix of hawk attacks and hot weather. The K factor chart didn't look any worse than it has been.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Using the K-Factor chart for guidence,on shipping day is wise....Lets say the prediction for race day is middle to high Red or worse...Then if you normally ship say 25/30 birds to a race,you would be wise to send only 10 birds...Then if there is a SMASH race,you have not put most of your race team at odds against making it home....I call this being a smart loft Mgr...Put all your birds in races where they do not have to fight mother nature....It`s hard enough to win against top pigeons...So using any TOOL you can,is the smart thing to do for your birds...Alamo


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I've gotta start keeping an eye on this every year I lose a big chunk of my team on one bad toss and most of the time it's after they've been to a spot multiple times b4 I have that bad toss. Last year it was my 10 mile toss I had them there 4 times and was gonna jump them but there was traffic and figured what the hell I give them another 10 mile toss and jump them tommorrow. Well out of 76 birds only 38 ever made it home.


Try releasing them is smaller numbers... say five to ten at a time with five to ten minute break in between. My losses have gotten smaller due to this. I also will move to different locations nearby to release the next group. The Hawk population is increasing and when a hawk hits a group of birds the birds scatter and some never make it back. 

Tony


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Alamo said:


> For the UN-beleivers here,race results with very bad pigeon losses,and poor race results,were found in conjunction with sun spot/solar storms....After 28 years of racing myself,and 50+ years by my dad,I think when scientists say "Solar Storms" on the Sun,diminish homing ability of even the best pigeons,I beleive what they say..IF YOU CARE NOT TO BELEIVE IT,that`s your business.....But please don`t tell me it`s not proven,when over the last 20 years or so,it has been proven....There were many times when I did not send birds to a race,because of this,and when the race was over,and many lofts lost birds,and the race speeds were very bad,I did myself and my birds a favor....I kepted them home.....Alamo


I wish I read this thread before I released my birds this morning. I looked on the K-factor site http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/alerts/k-index.html and and of course the readings spiked (red zone) today compared to this weeks previous readings. 
What does this mean to me? Well I took 56 pigeons on a 10 mile line of flight training toss this morning and so far I am guesstimating I only have 30-40 back. 
I did a 8 am release and its almost 2:15 pm now and this is totally unexpected. The temps have shot up and the heat index feels like its well over 100 deg so whatever birds went down to drink I probably won't see until this evening or tomorrow. 
I could be wrong about all this though because I did feed them very well last night after their 2 hour loft fly and my fiancée thinks they are just out playing and exploring their territory. Either way my birds need to learn how to adapt and overcome to flying through these high K-factor days.


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

I normally look at the K factor but did'nt today. Tossed them @ 20 miles and all made it home together in a flock but they were slow 800ypm compared to yesterdays 1100ypm. 
Had I looked at the K factor I would have kept them home and spent the morning linking birds to the e-clock.
I'm a believer!


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

Our birds are still being held on the truck down south due to the K factor and low cloud cover.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Lot's of real estate in America. Releasing in New York and California at the same time are not the same...I would think. The terrain and other factors affects the measurables. 

I tossed (bro-in-law drove them) 4 birds 85+ road miles this morning and all came back fine. It was actually overcast here with no sun until maybe 11am, and they got home before the sun broke through. It could likely have been overcast the whole distance because I drive 70 miles that way to work M-F and it's been overcast all week.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I released 56 ybs Saturday morning and I have 52 back now. I will take the blame for the losses on this one. I heard one of my ybs fly to the perch yesterday morning and it had kind of a high winding sound flapping its wings..that tells me respiratory issue. 

Interesting theory though "the K-factor" because its a documented fact that crime rates go up during full moons so the potential for solar flare ups to interfere with our birds homing abilities could have merit. But for me my losses are combined mistakes before the toss. 

First the birds where given more then enough feed the night before because their was uneaten feed left over in the morning. 
Second, during Fridays evening loft fly I had a small group that chose to hang out at the loft and not fly in the heat..that should of been a red flag something was not right.
Third, I distinctly heard the "whine sound" when a young bird flew to the perch and I still took them all for the training toss. 

Last is kind of a given but the course my birds need to fly along the line of flight takes them right over a area heavily populated with hawks..I saw one after the release I thought at first had a snake in its claws but it was a branch so that tells me they are nesting and are hunting for anything they can kill. 

Now I can say the birds just got their first real crash course in dealing with power lines because their was a sub station not 2 miles from their release point. Plus taking into consideration the birds are starting to molt and then flying over interstates and heavy traffic areas and add in the K-factor I'm amazed these babies made it home at all.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> It happened to me yesterday....20 Birds tossed @ 50 miles....Got 4 home @4:15 PM.......As of 12pm Wednesday 7/27,I have 15 home....Looked on YouTube,and saw that others were having the same problem....A guy in Chico,Ca...A lady in Chicago etc had bad returns yesterday....The sun spot was listed @5 RED...That`s very bad....I never check for sun spot activity when training..Maybe I should...I always check before shipping birds to a race...I hold back most birds when it`s going to be RED 4 or higher.....Alamo


 If one has a bad return, the K-Factor is as good of an excuse as any other. If you can get on the Internet and find someone else who has also had a bad toss, then I am sure it gives the fancier some measure of reassurance that it was something out there. Back when I was a kid, we placed the blame on the space ships which were being sent up into space. 

I don't know what the deal really is. In the end, I don't really care. I need to breed a strain of pigeons that will come home, even when there are K factors, or space ships. I have been training every day for this last week, and I haved noticed any difference other then there are alot of of fanciers out there letting their birds go, and the birds are flying into ever larger flocks as the races near. 

On race day, some birds will be early, and some will be late, maybe the late ones are affected by the K factor, and maybe those that are early are not. As long as I breed some of the early ones, then I am on the right track. Best I can figure, there has been a K factor for as long as there has been pigeon racing, and we had a K factor, before we even knew what a K factor was, and before we even had a name for it. And the birds still came home never the less. My thinking is the birds are not ready for the races if they are having issues at fifty miles, but hey that is me. I can't control such things, but the birds need to return home in good time, K factor or not, because our races won't be put off because of a high K factor reading.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Hi Warren...Please CORRECT me if I am wrong with my next paragragh.....

A few years ago,there was a 500 or 600 mile race with the birds going to NY & NJ....There were,like many times before,1500 to 2000 birds in the race...It was on TV,etc that after many days,and WEEKS,only a HANDFULL of birds were clocked...Birds were found up in New Hamshire,and all over the eastern seabord...Out on ships coming into NY harbor etc...Now Warren,do you really want to tell me that the Sun Spot/K-Factor problem will not INTERFERE with YOUR birds when racing ?? How about all those seasoned OB`s,which are being flown by some of the best lofts around ?? Not good birds ?? Not good owners ?? Come on now !!!
Excuses my you know what !!...........Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Well. Lots of theory and lots of anecdotal evidence. To be fair, probably evidence that is more than anecdotal.

No one knows FOR SURE how they home. I, like Becky, believe they use a lot of tools. If one tool is taken away from them (say: position of the sun), then they use another tool or two. If magnitism is taken away from them, then perhaps they use position of the sun or smells. No one knows FOR SURE. Yet.

I do know for a fact that birds that have lost the ability to fly have been found walking in the direction of home. I do know that birds that have been intentionally blinded, have flown (or walked) in the direction of home. I do know that the military was able to produce birds that flew at night. I do know that homing pigeons have had magnets attached to their heads in an attempt to counter the magnetic "pulls" of the earth, and these pigeons found their way home.

One thing I do not know, is how come I and another flyer who lives in my neighborhood, can train our birds together from the same spot, together. Yet our returns will be different. With our birds being from the same general genetics (we both obtained many of our birds from the same breeders). That has to be handler problems or differences.

I know for a fact that crime does intensify during full moon periods. I also know that I can have a pigeon come home last one race (days late), and first the very next race. I know that I have had birds home from 350 miles on an overcast day with spots of rain, that did not come home from a fifty mile training toss, on a seemingly nice day. I know that good pigeons get lost often. I know that bad pigeons sometimes beat good pigeons home. I know that heat and wind directions are huge factors in pigeon racing. I have proven that to myself over and over again.

I am a believer in the "K-factor", and the "X-factor". The "X-factor" being the "unknown factor" (we just don't know all our birds encounter "out there").

I do know that last week, a fellow flyer sent one bird to the young bird "B" race, hoping to lose it because it was "light" and no matter what he did, he couldn't put weight on it, and he just wanted to lose it. It was the only bird he entered in that race basket. I handled the bird prior to being basketed and thought it was in sorry shape. Yet, that bird was the first home from the "B" race, in the Combine. I personally would not have "done that" to the bird, but it was his bird and not mine.

Bottom line is, I know a lot about pigeon racing and their abilities and disabilities. 

Yet I know little to nothing.

But....we have to keep investigating and discussing. Exchanging ideas and ideals. To further the hobby and in attempts to further our own fortunes in the hobby.

P.S. I sent eight old birds to the 200 and five young birds to the 150 this past weekend. Don't have official results yet, but I think I did good in OB's and know I did bad in YB's. All OB's are home and I am out one YB. (I only have 13 OB's and five YB's on my racing teams, after heavy YB losses in the first two races of the year). I hate racing in July and early August. (have I mentioned that once or twenty times?) 

P.S. again. Ace in the hole. #19267 came back a week late, from being MIA from that smash race in July. I reconditioned him and sent him to the 150 (183 for me), and he came back. But too late to place well in on the sheet.  But he is still in the loft.


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## Haemari (Mar 28, 2011)

Your birds must be healthy before you take some toss..


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Haemari said:


> Your birds must be healthy before you take some toss..


I agree...as for me I can't really complain with Saturdays toss. I sent 56 had 52 in yesterday and today after work 3 more where sitting on the loft waiting for me to let them inside.  (btw Thank you to whoever it was that prayed for their safe return..they where in fine condition just thirsty and hungry)

I started my team on Globals Respiratory Plus and after Wednesday I will start letting them out again for evening loft flying. Saturdays toss was technically 11.2 miles and I'm thinking next Saturday I will take them to 23 miles along the flight line if I don't have to work. 
Our race season doesn't even start until October but I believe the training in the Summer heat should strengthen them and help teach them to stop playing around and head straight home.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> Hi Warren...Please CORRECT me if I am wrong with my next paragragh.....
> 
> A few years ago,there was a 500 or 600 mile race with the birds going to NY & NJ....There were,like many times before,1500 to 2000 birds in the race...It was on TV,etc that after many days,and WEEKS,only a HANDFULL of birds were clocked...Birds were found up in New Hamshire,and all over the eastern seabord...Out on ships coming into NY harbor etc*...Now Warren,do you really want to tell me that the Sun Spot/K-Factor problem will not INTERFERE with YOUR birds when racing ?? *How about all those seasoned OB`s,which are being flown by some of the best lofts around ?? Not good birds ?? Not good owners ?? Come on now !!!
> Excuses my you know what !!...........Alamo


 My point was/is what do you propose to do about it ? I don't know of anything that anybody has suggested, that will void these K Factor effects. Which is why I have adopted the attitude of so what ? There is a K-factor out there. What is the average fancier then to do ? Keep them home ? OK, keep them home. I am still going to send my birds to race, even if they might run into a high K factor that day. If they get lost, then they get lost. They won't all get lost, so maybe those that make it back are some how better able to handle the K factor, and will pass it onto their young. My colony will have to learn to deal with all the things that are out there, be it a K factor, hunters, X Factors, Alien Spacecraft, power lines, global warming, etc etc. 

I still don't think that sun spots are new, or that this K factor thing has only just recently happened. I suspect there has been a K factor for hundreds of thousands of years. My solution then is to breed a K factor resistant strain, how does one do that ? You train and you race, even when the K factor is high. Maybe my pigeons will be affected, like everyone else, but they won't get a free pass, they still have to go to the races......


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I agree Warren. To hell with the less than super birds. Either they fly home no matter what, or they die.

You have to break some eggs to make an omelette. Right?



Seriously, it is only prudent to not train or race when you suspect it might not be a good time to do it. For whatever reason. High heat. High K-factors. Bad weather. etc. Right?

Or do you train in blinding rain, in your efforts to produce superior pigeons?

Of course there is no doubt that sun activity (solar flares, sun spots or whatever), have been around forever. But so have thunderstorms. You wouldn't race or train in one of those would you? The "problem" is that old timers (I can say that because I are one), only want to go by their eyesight and don't want to delve into that which they can not see or have not had personal experience with.

Maybe some guys with racing pigeons in Saudi Arabia are training their pigeons in sand storms. Just to seperate the men from the boys. 

I skipped our races the weekend before last, because I didn't like the conditions. It cost me any chances for competing in "average speed". But my birds are more important. Many birds were lost that weekend. But none of mine. I feel good about that decision, even though I had already paid for the shipping costs for all races.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Maybe you are correct, that one should not train during a high K factor. Can you tell on a Friday afternoon what the K factor will be on Saturday ? So, I guess one could then add that to all the other things in deciding to ship or not to ship. 

I am going to ship every race, because that is what we do, we race. If the birds are not up to the task, then perhaps the next generation will be. I'm not going to coddle them.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I go about the K factor the same way I do for cell towers. I have a tower 3 mi out so I tossed the birds from 3 1/2 mi till the learned to get passed it. When the K factor is high I only take them 5 mi out. I have high hopes they will learn to come home no matter what. I wont turn them out in a thunder storm, but if its just a rainy day they go. I ride a Harley and if its just a rainy day I still ride, so they can still fly.
Dave


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

It is wise to be prudent with YOUNG BIRDS....Why would anyone,who DOES FLY >> OLD BIRDS as well,want to lose,OR get a VG young bird hurt,when the weather is real bad....I for one DO NOT baby my OLD BIRDS...They get trained down the road,as long as it is not pouring the rain...I can care less about any factors,when I`m only down the road 40 miles with OLD BIRDS.....They have to race up to 600 miles....40 miles in rain,or a bad K-Factor is not going to hurt @ 40 miles.....Now with that said,I am racing with an AU club for the 1st time...Last week,(100M)they let the birds go into bad weather...When your winning speed is 704 YPM,that is bad weather...Now,I`m the only guy who flys OB`s in this club....So I knew it was going to be bad,so I only shipped 6 birds...I left 10 birds HOME...That`s what a guy does if he flys OB`s also...No need to lose a good YB because of bad weather...Alamo


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

On high K days I would say slower speeds is the main thing. In some areas yes perhaps more birds get lost others may not. NOW as young birds If a person did not hand select there team or teams. And flew every thing left over from training. One must remember there will still be birds lost. As the follwers and late trained birds will have to learn or they get lost. PLUS crossing race lines with other races some get caught up with race birds headed a different direction The get lost. Can a person breed a bird that does well in any type of race NO. But people can select the best they recorded for there young bird team and reduce certion lost birds. I new a person years ago. After young bird season The birds that did not do so well through the season He would send out to 35 miles in a hard RAIN. The birds that made it back were kept for his old bird races. Sounds cruel. But he did well aginst some rather good flyers. So his idea worked for him.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I know there are those that believe in letting the race results cull their birds. I guess I do also.

But I feel that it is inherent in being the caretaker of living things, even pigeons bred and born for one purpose. To race. That those living things be given an even chance. Releasing them in a heavy rain storm with the intention of losing some or all, is barbaric. IMO.

In truth, I might send a bird to a 500 mile race, that I don't think will come back. But it has a decent chance to prove me wrong (I am wrong often). But I would not take that same bird on a 25 mile training toss in blinding rain. They do have to earn their place on the team, but they do get a fair chance to do so. Health, training and weather attention is all they really need to have a fair chance.

Seriously. Many (if not most) pigeon racers just rub me the wrong way. But....what ya gonna do?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> I know there are those that believe in letting the race results cull their birds. I guess I do also.
> 
> But I feel that it is inherent in being the caretaker of living things, even pigeons bred and born for one purpose. To race. That those living things be given an even chance. *Releasing them in a heavy rain storm *with the intention of losing some or all, is barbaric. IMO.
> 
> ...


 For the record, I don't want anyone to think that I advocate releasing birds into down pours or obvious poor weather. If your club or combine does that, then that speaks ill of the management. Our combine has put responsible people on the liberation committee, and so our birds are only released into "good" weather. Now, K-Factor is not something that the liberation committee has given much thought to. And I suspect, that if many of the combines or clubs out there are releasing into rain storms, then I can't see where they would pay much attention to a theory on the K-factor. And if my combine is not going to pay attention to the K-factor, then I guess one could choose to sit out all of those races in which the K-factor is not at "normal" levels, but up to this point, I have never missed a single race in my career, and I don't see that changing. 

And hey, for what it is worth, I suspect that many, if not most fanciers, simply tolerate each other, in order to have folks to race with.


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## Haemari (Mar 28, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My point was/is what do you propose to do about it ? I don't know of anything that anybody has suggested, that will void these K Factor effects. Which is why I have adopted the attitude of so what ? There is a K-factor out there. What is the average fancier then to do ? Keep them home ? OK, keep them home. I am still going to send my birds to race, even if they might run into a high K factor that day. If they get lost, then they get lost. They won't all get lost, so maybe those that make it back are some how better able to handle the K factor, and will pass it onto their young. My colony will have to learn to deal with all the things that are out there, be it a K factor, hunters, X Factors, Alien Spacecraft, power lines, global warming, etc etc.
> 
> I still don't think that sun spots are new, or that this K factor thing has only just recently happened. I suspect there has been a K factor for hundreds of thousands of years. My solution then is to breed a K factor resistant strain, how does one do that ? You train and you race, even when the K factor is high. Maybe my pigeons will be affected, like everyone else, but they won't get a free pass, they still have to go to the races......


Yes, I also agree Mr. Warren Ludo..


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

conditionfreak said:


> I know there are those that believe in letting the race results cull their birds. I guess I do also.
> 
> But I feel that it is inherent in being the caretaker of living things, even pigeons bred and born for one purpose. To race. That those living things be given an even chance. Releasing them in a heavy rain storm with the intention of losing some or all, is barbaric. IMO.
> 
> ...


I do not believe so much as letting the race do the culling. As good training You the person should have some sort of idea how a bird might do in the races. MEANING why send birds out you are sure might get lost or come home slow. That is just keeping the birds for race numbers. When removing them gives better training and attention to the birds that showed they could make up a team. And loft flying the birds in rain I sure did that and some of the old greats did let your birds decide to fly . And they have training for the hard race. While i posted that this person took his birds out the so so birds after race season in a hard rain. That was his way Not mine But I never told him it was wrong Because his results showed he raced well on his method. As some will remove a bird if it looks at them wrong almost There is alot of people that hold a high demand on there birds.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

"And hey, for what it is worth, I suspect that many, if not most fanciers, simply tolerate each other, in order to have folks to race with."


The above quote is from Warrens posting.

Never have there been words posted here that are more true.

Ha Ha. I was just thinking that if I changed just a couple of words in that quote, it describes most couples.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

conditionfreak said:


> "And hey, for what it is worth, I suspect that many, if not most fanciers, simply tolerate each other, in order to have folks to race with."
> 
> 
> The above quote is from Warrens posting.
> ...


Might be true today. But was a time where clubs pulled together Friends were made and alot was learned. people were different then. NOT the fast lane type as we have today. I still hate cell phones I have one only take when I go out of town Only incase something happens.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> Might be true today. But was a time where clubs pulled together Friends were made and alot was learned. people were different then. NOT the fast lane type as we have today. I still hate cell phones I have one only take when I go out of town Only incase something happens.


Maybe that was back in the day when people sat on their front porches and knew their neighbors. I have lived in my home for 12 years now, and I am clueless who the people are who live in the homes across from me, or beside me. So maybe once upon a time, the pigeon hobby was more of a social outlet. In our combine, we pay for an annual awards dinner, and a large percentage never attend. So, not much of a social event from what I can see. But, I digress from K-Factor, so please forgive me, that K-Factor thing sometimes makes me funny in the head, and I ramble on.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm not much of a k-factor kinda guy, or any other factor kinda guy when it comes to flying pigeons. As a matter of fact, I haven't thought about this stuff until this thread popped up. I believe there was another thread on the subject not long ago. 

To be cautious and aware of environmental factors is never a bad thing. But, you can't let it scare you either. Having a different philosophy from another man on the same subject is not a bad thing. There is always a balance between the two and one is not more right than the other. 

I, for one, have my own ideas on pigeon racing (pigeon flying for me. I don't race) and the affects of unseen environmental factors. I know a little and have studied about the impact of environmental factors. Yet, I don't discredit someone elses thoughts on the subject. There are no absolutes in this type of subject. There may be many answers to the same question. 

A man with 100 pigeons can let loose all his birds all the time. A man with 20 can’t afford to. He has to be smarter.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

XUEOO....wrote in part....

*A man with 100 pigeons can let loose ALL the time....A man with 20 CAN`T afford to....He has to be SMARTER !!!*

*This is my thought on YB racing & training with a team of 20 birds or less.....Alamo*


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Xueoo said:


> I'm not much of a k-factor kinda guy, or any other factor kinda guy when it comes to flying pigeons. As a matter of fact, I haven't thought about this stuff until this thread popped up. I believe there was another thread on the subject not long ago.
> 
> To be cautious and aware of environmental factors is never a bad thing. But, you can't let it scare you either. Having a different philosophy from another man on the same subject is not a bad thing. There is always a balance between the two and one is not more right than the other.
> 
> ...


 I think you make some very good points !!  And it is true, some folks in our combine will raise hundreds of YB's and can only ship 20 to a race, so I am sure that impacts their view on how to train. If one only has 20 YB's (I flew 2003 with a 14 bird team) then you really can't make too many mistakes. You tend to "baby" them, giving them every opportunity to succeed. In which case, maybe the prudent thing to do, is pay attention to such things as K factor when training. What I was refferring to in earlier posts, is when a race comes up, I would still ship to the race, even if I had advanced knowlege that on the actual race day the K factor would be elevated.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Maybe that was back in the day when people sat on their front porches and knew their neighbors. I have lived in my home for 12 years now, and I am clueless who the people are who live in the homes across from me, or beside me. So maybe once upon a time, the pigeon hobby was more of a social outlet. In our combine, we pay for an annual awards dinner, and a large percentage never attend. So, not much of a social event from what I can see. But, I digress from K-Factor, so please forgive me, that K-Factor thing sometimes makes me funny in the head, and I ramble on.


Well I still sit on my front porch. AND know all the neighbors. No it is not back in the day. JUST some clubs fail to pull together as a club. THE few do it all the others show up on race day. BUT it does not have to be that way.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

There should be a rule or law....No rain on Race Days.....They are predicting rain again for Saturday....I might be wrong,but around here,all the Saturdays before we started racing it never rained....Well anyway,it seemed that way...Looking forward to sit out and get beat by mother nature again...It`s not bad enough,that these fellow club mates have alot of "WHITE" pigeons,that have been smoking my birds,even in training....I have to have mother nature on there side also....hahahahahahahahaha!!!!.......Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> There should be a rule or law....No rain on Race Days.....They are predicting rain again for Saturday....I might be wrong,but around here,all the Saturdays before we started racing it never rained....Well anyway,it seemed that way...Looking forward to sit out and get beat by mother nature again...It`s not bad enough,that these fellow club mates have *alot of "WHITE" pigeons,that have been smoking my birds*,even in training....I have to have mother nature on there side also....hahahahahahahahaha!!!!.......Alamo


 WHAT !?!? 

When you start getting beat by WHITE birds !!!! It's time to hang up the pigeon clock and go into show birds, or just buy a boat and go fishing !!! 
I have a buddy down in Florida, I think that is that is what he did.....


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## Goingatitagain (Feb 5, 2011)

I think K Factor whether fact of fiction, is something to think about in training. I defintely watch it when training. I also think as some people have mentioned, it's been around for awhile. IMO, maybe that science is starting to understand it. Who knows for sure.

I am a firm believer that heathly birds are going to come home. We are 4 weeks away from our first race and I am just starting to push the birds. We have our 1st team training well, which is 24 birds that are looking real good. I have started upping the fat content in their diet, so they have something to burn when training. They are responding real well !! Most of them are 9th flight , which will put me where I need to be in 4 weeks.

I always want to give the birds every opportunity that's within my power, (training Feeding & handling) to allow them to show me what they got. It let's me see who has it and who don't. 
Feeding properly right now is probably one of the most important thing's next to their health. I put them on feed twice a day, instead of once when they were just loft flying.

As far as losses go, we have already had our share. I still shake my head over some of them !!

But apart from all this, I think it's going to be an exciting YB season and we are all going to have our stories to post.
I, for one am going to be ready...


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