# oriental roller dies



## Vwj Tsaab (Mar 8, 2001)

My rollers were stolen, as you all know. well, i got them back. i got them all. i have one roller that rolls very good. it is a all red-brown male except for one white tail feather. i let it fly to see it roll. it rolls very rarely, but when it rolls, it is suicidal!!!then it rolls once, about 10 feet up the ground and hits it hard. but it hits some of our letuces too, so it didn't die. then next day i let it fly again. my neighbor lets his fly too. his pigeons land quick. my roller goes over to his house. it rolled down over there and died there. then my friend said that he heard something hit their hard ground. he brought the pigeon to ask me if it was mine. i said yes, but it was dead. each of its eyes had a large bump over it, and the eyes look like it was going to pop out. This is my prediction of how it died..... it went to my neighbor's house. it was about 20 feet up and rolled down like crazy. they had hard, bumpy ground , it hit their hard ground somewhere near its head and died. it died a painful death or either a painless death.
When my pigeon rolls it goes very fast. all you can see is a brown ball comming down. you can see a perfect hole in it. it goes so fast you can't even count how many it is doing!!!!!!!!
well, that was my best pigeon. its mom rolls three very fast too. and its dad rolls three very slow. its dad rolls one then skips space then rolls one then skips space again then rolls one more. and of the 10 pairs of babies it produced none ever rolled that great. can anyone explain how this one can be such a good roller? the one that died was the best roller of all. the rest only rolls 2 or 3.
well that was just something i wanted to tell you all. see you later.

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Vue Chang


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Vue writes, in part: "can anyone explain how this one can be such a good roller?"

The movie "Hannibal" explains this. I did not enjoy the movie. The book was somewhat better. At any rate, the movie describes a "deep roller". I found this explanation as sad and sick as the story line.

A "good roller" you say? Sure. Too good! So good it's dead. This is an example of line breeding to the max, to get a result regardless of consequence. Disposable life. Cool. What a concept (see "breeding for color" thread on this forum). 

Suggestion: For entertainment, watch a movie.

--Ray

[This message has been edited by raynjudy (edited December 20, 2001).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Recommended reading: See "breeding for color" thread on this forum.

--Ray


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## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Dear Roller owner,
If you had a bird you claim to love why would you fly it "roll" allowing it to destroy its own life????? I guess I'm just too old to process your information on a "good" roller. 
Sincerely,
Nancy


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Nancy If you had a car that you loved to drive would you keep it in the garrage? I know how Vue feels about good rollers, I want to see them roll not just keep them locked up because they are my best ones. BUT it is true when we fly our best rollers we run the chance of them rolling down (if they go so far) or getting caught by a hawk. Then again when we drive our favorite car we run the chance of dinging it up.... Vicious circles we live in.
~Brian


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## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Dear Brian,
I understand what you are saying. But if I have a roller (the best bird I had) that rolls down too far on numerous occassions wouldn't I want to protect the bird's life and gene pool and perhaps breed it to a bird that does not roll down as far, hopefully getting a bird that rolls well but not down so far it hits the ground. Maybe this new bird could be released to fly for me?
Thank you for your kindness to help me understand.
Sincerely,
Nancy

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited December 20, 2001).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Brian:

As usual you make your point very well. But you do so in terms of risk assessment of an inanimate object. I sympathize--like all guys I love cars! But the car is not a "being". Also, the car is not programmed or hard-wired to crash and burn, which in this case, the pigeon is.

I'm entirely with Nancy on this one.

Happy holidays, big guy!

--Ray


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Here are the facts as I know them. Rollers roll but knowone has any proof as to why they do this. 
The best rollers perform most, get tired and when the hawk shows up, the best roller is the easy target.
A roller that crashes to the ground is not a good roller. 
Train your birds in a kit (at least 12 or 15 birds. Feeding your birds two hours prior to release is good. The amount you feed them will determine how long they stay up, and how far up they will go. You train them to go high by having a good quantity of birds and by the amount you feed them. The more feed you give them, the longer and higher they will stay up. Reduce the food, reduce the time in the air. Overfeed them and they get lazy. Under feed them and they will not perform. It takes people a lot of time and effort to get a good kit of birds to permorm at maximum.
I know a few roller pigeon guys, they all treat their birds as a coach would treat his team of atheletes. Good health, good excercise, regular routeen.
Regards,
Carl


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Have to aggree with nancy. As we know, a bird which strikes an object once tend to repeat this action until they will eventually run out of luck. These birds are unlucky, and certinly not what would be considered high quality. I don't know what others have seen, but seems to me the most common age for a rolldown is between it's first and second year, when it's still learning. We also have a oriental hen that is a rolldown, and she stays inside and enjoys the flight pen. Some may argue that it's cruel to keep a flying bird penned up, but when doing so prevents it's death, I don't consider that cruel at all. As owners, we are responsible for the birds, and thier saftey. Who knows what they think, maybe a flying breed that's kept penned up is unhappy. However, look at it this way. If a child wanted to play on a busy street, you'd of course tell it no, which would make the child unhappy. But it's for thier own good. Prehaps they don't understand why they're kept penned up, but we sometimes have to make decisions for them. Each season, we all lose birds, to hawks, to cats, to accidents. These losses often can't be prevented. In the case of a rolldown, it often can be. Thanks, Dave.


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Very well said Dave. I think we can all agree that for the birds that are entrusted in our care, our first concern is the birds health and safety.
Regards,
Carl


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Very good points here, good rollers dont roll down. What it was that I was pointing out is that if you have a good roller why not fly it and enjoy its flights while you can. I think that if your too protective of your birds you wont enjoy them then theres no use for them - you might as well have a non-flying show breed if your worried about them hurting themselves in flight. Its kindof like being an overprotective parent that doesnt let thier kids go out and have fun - because of danger. Danger is life - If one of my birds get caught by a hawk then thats life - nature taking its course. Dont get me wrong I do give them protection while they are in the loft or flypen and I do love my birds very much, but when they are out flying they are on their own - hawks or rolldowns either way its how it nature works. Thats what is so great about this sport/hobby, you can see nature first hand from start to finnish. Also a hawk chasing a pigeon is quite a sight to see even if I dont want the hawk to get the pigeon.


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## Vwj Tsaab (Mar 8, 2001)

thanks for all your replies guys. sorry because i waited so long to reply. my cpmputer is having problems. well, i'm still breeding quality rollers still. i have a pair that rolls one feet by the male and 10 feet by the female. because i love pigeons! see you all later.

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Vue Chang


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## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Ray & Co.,

Well, as you know, I have spent a little bit of time around Rollers and the Flying Performing Tumbler genre as a whole.

Actually, the theory on Rollers put forth in "Hannibal" is a little "off" and rolldowns or bumpers are not a by product of linebreeding excessively deep rolling pigeons, but the by product of cultivating pigeons which roll far too often.

Carl has written a few things that are also just not correct, but some of them are widely believed by many beginning roller fanciers.

Carl's stuff is in the quotes (" "), mine follow.

"Rollers roll but knowone has any proof as to why they do this."

Reality is, we have plenty of proof to support a genetic disorder of the central nervous system that has similiarities to epilepsy in humans. I could go into this at length citing the research, but will just say that the reality often does not set well with many fanciers, but these are people who just don't like being accused of cultivating a genetic weakness (and it is and that's exactly what we do is cultivate a genetic nerve disorder that has been refined by selective breeding for the last 3000 years (only 200 years in America & England)).


"A roller that crashes to the ground is not a good roller."

Not neccessarily. The majority of so called "crashers" are the result of feeding errors on the part of the owner who have lowered the condition of a frequent roller to the point where it has little to no physical resistance to the roll. Real, honest to goodness rolldowns are a rarity
(I'm reffering to the pigeon who is so posessed by the roll, that upon performing, he will hit EVERY time). 95% of all dangerous performers will be corrected if given a few days rest and more attention to their ration. Further, performing abilty is not indicative of breeding ability. One of the best stock hens I ever had was a stone rolldown, but I was after the genetic material of her sire, so tried her anyway.

"Feeding your birds two hours prior to release is good"

Feeding your kit prior to liberation will only result in problems. Kit birds should NEVER be fed within 6 hours of liberation.
Feeding prior to liberation will result only in a disjointed group of clunkers who refuse to respond to the feed can, who will land early, who will land on objects other than the loft, who will refuse to renter the kitbox on command (so they will hang about and get torn up by your friendly neighborhood raptor). To top it all off, they will have grain in their crop and have the possibility of choking in mid roll or will proceed to vomit up the food on landing. 

"Overfeed them and they get lazy. Under feed them and they will not perform"

See last section. In addittion, too little feed does NOT restrict the performance. It works the opposite way. The fact is, Tumblers and Rollers are not Racing Homers and do not fair well on high protein, high carbohydrate diets. THE LOWER THE PHYSICAL CONDITION, THE BETTER - within reason.

The fact is, high condition (excess feed, too good of feed, excessive muscle) restricts the roll and will turn a team of good rollers into something as bad as some cull Tipplers who barely perform and fly forver.

High condition equals more flight and less roll. Low condition equals less flight and more roll.

In addittion, water intake also plays a role. Excessive water restricts the performance, where as limiting the water increases the performance. (that's why the old timers used to "purge" their kits to fine tune them. They'd purge them with salt water and feed only small grains in limited quantities after fasting them for a day. This stripped the birds out of the excess water (no different from laxatives) and havoing less water in their system plays a vital role on performance. (Most modern fanciers don't seem to know this, but kits of any tumbling or rolling breed should only have one good drinking period a day after feeding. So ideally, we call the kit down,
give them water first (15 minutes) and then feed them. Then give them another 15 minutes to eat and drink, then remove the water.

This is just the iceburg tip on this subject and what I am writing is just repitition, nor is this information anything new. What I will simply say is this: I have spent ALOT of time around the Birmingham Roller and alot more time around performing breeds and studied under every old timer I could find. Some of them included Chan Grover, Roger O. Baker, Bill Schrieber, the late Ollie Harris, the late Bill Barret and others. And last, but definitely not least, my first mentor in pigeons, the late Al Krauss (originally from Leipzig, Germany) who spent over 95 SERIOUS years as a breeder, flier, judge, writer and researcher of Flying Performing Tumbler/Roller breeds.
And to go further, even they did not originate most of what I have just written, but also picked it up from the old timers of their day. Regrettably, the old timers understood the essence of tumbler flying far better than fanciers of today and most modern fanciers have largely lost sight of their knowledge.

Vue, the only thing I can tell you is to live and learn. If you have something good, lock it down and breed it. If it works, continue. If it doesn't, put it back in your kit. 

K.D. Spurling


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## Vwj Tsaab (Mar 8, 2001)

hey, thanks for the information. i'll make a schedule with my pigeons because in the past i feed them every time. even when they don't want to eat. i used to feed them meat maker(at feeds stores alot.). now i feed them cracked corn. is it good? and they don't get as much water now. they get only one drink every 2 or 3 days. the reason for it is that i sold all my pigoens that were stolen. i'm beginning again. i need to make them know when to eat, and how to perform well. thanks for all your posts guys!

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Vue Chang


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## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Vue,

Cracked Corn is no good and you really don't want to feed it to any pigeons (alot of mixes do carry it, tho). Cracked corn can scratch up their throats and create canker flare ups.

My reccommendation is straight Wheat. (Probaly marketed there as "Poultry Wheat")
It is not just cheap, but is really the best thing you can give for a simplified diet for a kit of rollers or tumblers.

Amount wise, I give 1/4 cup of grain to every three birds (I don't measure it except in fistfulls, but it comes to about that amount per 3 birds).

Water wise, if you are being that sparing, I think that was the contributing factor to losing your cock bird. In otherwords, you got his condition a little too low and he lost whatever resistance to the roll that he had. = crash & burn.

Try the wheat and give them water directly after landing and leave it for say 45 minutes, then remove the water. Also, when you feed, wait 15 minutes after you get them in after you get them in to feed them. Reason is: different pigeons work harder in the kit than others and different pigeons also eat faster than others. What I have found is that if you just call them in and dump the feed, the non working scrubs eat like mad pigs and the good birds (who are tired) just seem to get what they can and over time, their condition also lowers. = crash and burn or stop flying, or land early, etc.

Alot of the so called "culls" that Roller fanciers destroy are not culls at all, but the results of poor kit management on their own part. 

Tell you what, there seems to be a serious need here for some real details on flying and feeding kits of Rollers. I have just added to my "to do list" in front of me to write an article on kit management.

Give me a few days and I should have something together to post on here.

K.D.


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## Vwj Tsaab (Mar 8, 2001)

okay, thanks, i'll wait. see ya.

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Vue Chang


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## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Rollers? That idea about the ear has been around for years but has no
proof to back it up that I know of. It's something I think Pensom
suggested. In point
of fact, so far as I know the only evidence we have of why they roll
comes from a very detailed study done back in the early 70's. In 1971,
R. Entrikin (PGNL #59:4-32) published a study of rolling in pigeons. More
than thirty years later, many still don't know that his experiments
allowed nineteen conclusions. Among them: rolling is controlled by
allelic genes and that the neck muscle fibers of rollers have a "higher
resting potential, critical firing level, and lower membrane resistance
than muscle fibers of normal pigeon neck muscles." Basically, he found
that it's the muscle neck fibers that appear to be more responsible. They
have a lower activation potential than do those of other pigeons -- it
takes less stimulation to
make them contract and thus pull the bird's head back. ALL pigeons can
roll and do so when necessary under a hawk to escape. Just like all
humans can somersault or roll backwards if necessary -- but most of us
don't do it all the time.

The birds appear to be fully healthy, have no problems in the loft, will
not roll often in the air if allowed to fly all the time, and most have
no problems controlling their roll at any time. Personally, I don't
consider it a "defect", though anything that is different than wild-type
pigeon can be considered that if you chose to. White is a "defect" since
it makes it easier for a hawk to see the bird against a rock cliff. 
Homer size is a "defect" since it makes it harder to find enough food in
the wild to keep the body bulk fed, etc. 
Just thought you might want to add this to your "why a Roller rolls" information with some documentation.
Sincerely,
Nancy


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## Vwj Tsaab (Mar 8, 2001)

thanks for the information! 

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Vue Chang


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## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Nancy,

The work of Entrikin (which you cited) is considered by many to have been a very poor study of tumbling in pigeons. This is primarily due to the fact that his study was not very traditional. His study (as was indicated by the title of his thesis) was "Drug Induced Tumbling In Pigeons". This isn't even in the same ballpark and any organism will have a violent reaction to a toxin administered into their system, as in the case of many of the drugs Entikin used.

And as far as "ALL pigeons can roll and do so when necessary under a hawk to escape."
NONSENSE. Fact - tumbling or rolling is a physical weakness that to any bird of prey is like a neon light saying "kill me, please". Fact - more tumblers and rollers are killed by birds of prey than ANY other family of pigeons worldwide. Much of this predatory evasion theory was made popular by Hatcher in his book "Last Of The Greats" (Jacksonville, OR, 1978). "LoG" carries a line drawing depicting the path of a falcon attacking a pigeon which at the last moment rolls to avoid the attack. Well, Hatcher lived locally and in fact owned a fitness gym 2 blocks down the road from where I am sitting right now. Later on, he relocated to a pigeon dead zone further north in Cresswell, OR. Thom should have have stayed around a little while longer, because about 5 years later, swarms of birds of prey moved into this area and decimated thousands of rollers a year. What remained were the "stiff" ones - the pigeons which rolled little, if at all. The fact is, I can show you video footage of birds of prey going into vertical dives and taking pigeons in mid roll, as well as successful attacks from other angles in different circumstances. Between 1987 and 1995, over 13,000 Rollers were destroyed by birds of prey in this area alone! There are comparable numbers in other areas to boot.

And what about "ALL" pigeons being capable of rolling. Utter nonsense. Definitely, a large number of traditional "non tumbler" breeds do on occassion produce birds which occassionally tumble. Racing Homers and Tipplers are two primary examples, BUT - both breeds have roots in the tumbler family. Tipplers, tho heavily idealized as "Endurance Fliers" (Tipplers are not real highfliers), are in fact a member of the Tumbler family and are closely related to the Birmingham Roller. Most early Tipplers rolled simply because they were no more than long time flying Old English Wire Legged Tumblers. In fact, the name Tippler stems from the word "tipple" which was part of the old Sheffield dialect. "tipple" is a synonim to the word "tumble". Later on, this trait was largely stamped out through breeding, but was not eliminated entirely, but is generally restricted through manner of training and diet. Even Racing Homers occassionally exhibit tumbling, but this is also no mystery since Racing Homers also have roots within the tumbler family due to their Cumulet ancestory, as well as through several now extinct, less notable ancestors.
Fantails also occassionally exhibit tumbling and there are branches of the family like the Konya Fantail which are tumblers. This is also no mystery since this family also has roots in the tumbler family.

But beyond this, we are talking about nonsense. You will NEVER see a pure bred Ice Pigeon, Swallow, Gimpel, Barb, Damascene, Lebanon, Dewlap or many, many others exhibit even single flipping, let alone true rolling.
The fact is, this is a genetic feature and these breeds just do not have the feature in their genepool.

As far as research, altho the work of Entrikin may be the best known outside the tumbler fraternity, it is far from being the only research. Kesteven, Gilbert, Karp, Chapman, Pensom, Hilton, Prescott and even myself have done extensive genetical and biological research. There are some others I'm even neglecting to mention at this point.

And sorry, rolling/tumbling is a genetic defect. There is no other way about it. The fact is, this is a potentially detrimental characteristic. The fact is, tumbling/rolling is abnormal. Even in lesser expressions, it restricts a birds ability to survive in the wild. In extreme doses, it can go as far as destroying the bird. This can take all kinds of forms from rolling down and breaking bones, to snapping bones in mid roll, blowing eyes, blowing their oviduct. Something as minor as snapping and losing feathers in mid roll is potentially dangerous to a bird in the wild. Fact is, I have seen many high class Birminghams sheer off as many as 4 or 5 primaries in a single roll and become next to flightless as a result.

Further, even tho our local feral flocks are largely composed of tumbling and rolling backgrounds, 90% of all Roller and Tumbler based losses in this area do not survive their first winter in the wild. Quite a number of the springtime losses do manage to reproduce in the wild, but quickly fade away come winter. The breed that tends to do best is your "too large" to find adequate food Racing Homer.

Maybe more later.


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