# Baby Snuggles and her Pox!



## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi Everyone! 

My name is Joey - I'm British and live in Porcia, Northern Italy. Last week I found a fledgling pigeon really suffering with Pox and had been attacked by what I suspect was the neighborhood cats - she found shelter under my veranda and didn't move when I approached. On closer inspection it was clear she has Pox, and was severely lethargic, and bloody. 

I took her inside, gave her a shallow bath in my deep sink to assess the damage, and once I refilled the sink with clean fresh water she literally dunked her entire face in the water to drink. Her wound was under her wing was about 4 inches long. Its now fully healed and the least of my concerns.

I managed to get the recommended antibiotics (Azitromicina here in Italy) and have been administering twice daily for the past week. The only thing that concerns me is that the pox are much *much* bigger, maybe 5 times the size. 

I keep her cage and water spotless - clean it out twice a day and replace the water 4 times a day. Her right eye is now completely covered with the lesions and her left eye is quickly being covered. She has a huge pox/canker in her beak, and her beak is now scissored and can't close. I didn't know that this could be different from the pox (I am new to this, I have only ever rehabilitated healthy fledglings when I lived in the countryside) so I thought the antibiotic would do the trick. Apparently not. Last night the outer part of the mouth pox/canker seemed to detach a little, and I think in the next day or so it will fall off?

I have just ordered the pigeon vitality tablets for cankers and some pigeon multi vitamin. (It wasn't available anywhere locally so I will be waiting 1-3 days for international delivery from the UK). 

She's not able to eat alone, and isn't interested in pecking any of the seeds. I am giving her vegan dog food kibble which is soaked in water - the first few days I blitzed it up and used a syringe to feed her, but now she is able to manage the wet kibble pieces if I introduce them to her beak so this seems like an improvement. 

She's getting plenty of food and water, she's still taking the antibiotics - is there anymore I can be doing? She actually seems much healthier to look at in general, and is very alert and active in her cage. Her energy and personality has improved dramatically in this week and she seems 'happy' if that makes sense. The actual aesthetics of her face? Dramatic decline! My local pharmacist said the pox has to just run it's course and so long as she's getting food and water and the environment is clean, she should improve and that it will always look worse before it gets better. 

Happy to accept any advice. The following items should arrive in the next few days. 
- New Pigeon Vitality Tricoli-Stop tablets
- Dac Pox Cream 15g
- Pigeon Vitality MultiVitra Super concentrated 500g

(PS: All the local vets I called last week suggested I release her and she'll die naturally, which I refuse to do clearly)

By the way, her name is Baby Snuggles. 

Thanks everyone! I'm a bit nervous about posting. I have read all the pox and canker threads but I haven't seen any pictures that look as bad as she does! If I can figure out how to upload pictures, I can show you.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

*Pictures (I think)*

The first picture is her on the first day, in the sink.
The second pic was a few days ago. The lesions are slightly bigger now.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

*The penthouse*

This is her current cage set up. There are lots of rags around because I couldn't clean the moss poles I'm using as perches and wanted to be able to keep everything clean. I'm changing these 2 times a day for infection control. I have a much bigger crate than this (these are for the dogs) but felt this would be okay for now?


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Good for you, thanks for taking care of this little soul.

Does sound like the pox is running its course and you seem to have it under control. Pox is supportive care only, but the Canker is serious. I'm glad you have medicine coming. 

So if I understand you correctly, part of the Beak (mandible) is about to brake off?


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Just saw the pics. Wow. Don't give up on her. You will be rewarded.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Is she eating by her self


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I'm going to take a picture now. Her beak seems intact, but the lesion itself is separating. It's the only one which has started to dry - the others just seem to be ballooning and growing. She is not eating alone, but is tolerating me kinda opening her beak and placing the kibble inside. Yesterday for the first time she started to kinda peck at my hand between bites, so I suspected she was hungry. I tried to get her to peck alone but her beak is open because of the pox/canker and she couldn't or wouldn't.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

*Pics*

Here are some current pictures. The growth inside the mouth has grown considerably - but hopefully you can see the pox that's kinda gone dark and separated a little. She's happy to hang out with me and she seems excited to see me when I'm close by.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Very well, was worried that the beak was affected. The beak looks good. The twisting (scissoring) of the beak will most likely be corrected once she rids her self of the pox.

Do you see yellow masses in the back of her mouth when you force open her beak?

You mentioned giving kibble, is that cat food by some chance? Sounds like she needs to be hand feed and now more than ever she will need good nutrition. Marina usually weighs in on these threads and she has a graceful method of hand feeding peas to the bird, so I expect she will give you a helping hand there. 

Good pics by the way


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Yes, her front beak and throat are really blocked with the spongey yellow type growth. (impossible to get a picture as my husband is out of town and I need both hands to steady her and open the beak). 

I actually just found that this canker is impacting her ability to feed, she can now only manage the food when its inserted on the left side of the beak. I can't wait for the medicine to arrive and annoyed with myself for not realizing pox and canker are different things. 

I feel like I'm quite the pro at hand feeding the pigeons - this being the third Ive fed by hand. With Snuggles it's very tricky because of all the growths on her face - Happy to hear if there's a better way! Marina, I'm ready for any new information!  (I fear that by this evening or tomorrow I might have to syringe feed again as the canker grows). 

I tried peas, but because of the mass in her mouth they were too bulky to be swallowed. The kibble is a vegan dog food, which is soaked in water. The kibble pieces are small and disk shaped, almost flat, so she is able to swallow them. As the ingredients are all plant based I felt this would be fine based on my research (Dehulled Sunflower Seeds, Pea Protein Concentrate, Soybean Meal, Whole Dried Peas, Tapioca, Soybean Oil, Whole Dried Potatoes... etc)


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Actually I under estimated you. Good job soldier. Don't be hard on your self. Its late for me, I'll check in tomorrow, keep us updated.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Here are some pics of the canker/pox - she just ate and seems to be breathing with more of an open mouth. It's absolutely huge and restricting her mouth a lot. I see online that the canker medicine I got seems to reduce in a day so I am hopeful it arrives with expediency!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor baby, thanks for rescueing her. The info you received is correct. The virus needs to run its course. The pox will eventually dry up and fall off. Her beak might be permanently disfigured, unfortunately.

I've read pox growths are more towards the front of the beak and canker towards the back. Unfortunately, antibiotics kills all the good bacteria in their system, and this will make the pox worse. But canker will kill her if not treated, so if you suspect she has it, then she will need treatment.

You can add apple cider vinegar to her drinking water. 5 ml acv to 1 litre of water. Do this every second day, this will help prevent a yeast infection. Vitamins and probiotics will also help.

Pox inside the beak can be fatal, but only if the growths get so large that it starts covering her breathing hole and inteferes with breathing. 

Do you have a scale? If so, weigh her every day to check for weightloss.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The cage is perfect for now.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I do have a scale, she is gradually gaining every day. I haven't weighed her today but at the weekend she was 203g. I think she's only young still as her little fluffy feathers are still there. 
I have ACV, and will start that today. I wish I had the medicine right now for the canker as its so large! I looked and looked for a place in Italy that sells it but no luck as far as I could find. 
Thank you! I guess now I just wait for the medicine to arrive and hope she continues to fight!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Let us know how she is doing. The acv will help with digestion and keeping the good gut bacteria in place.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I just weighed her and she is at 199 - which is a small drop in the last 3-4 days. Should I just increase the amount of food I am giving her? I'm not sure how old she is or what she should weigh, but I don't like that she's shrinking!
The medicine for the canker and the multivitamins should arrive by the end of tomorrow according to my tracking!  YAY!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes, try and feed her more. What do the droppings look like? Can you post a photo?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I just cleaned her cage out before I logged on - she seems to have pretty regular droppings, a mix of brown and white - when she first came to me they were green and liquid. 

I will take some pics later on. I fed her with a syringe yesterday as the canker made it very tricky for her to eat, and she was choking a little bit on the kibble. I gave her more than usual until her crop was full looking. 

Last night her breathing was very labored and I thought she was going to die - she snuggled up on a towel on my chest for 3-4 hours and then next to me in a towel nest on the sofa. She made it though the night and seems a little better today, breathing more regularly. 

I just fed her again but with kibble, and she was able to manage it though she hates food time. She's really not drinking at all, even when I encourage her beak next to the water. The food is soaked in water for an hour so I think she's getting enough, I added a drop of ACV this morning to the mix as she isn't drinking. Hope that helps! 

I weighed her this morning and she's not 230g - much better than yesterday! 

Thanks for all your help! I'm so hopeful that she fights through.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

oh, also. The pox lesion next to her beak is still kinda hanging on - she's fussing with it a lot so I'm sure its not gonna be there long. The other lesions aren't doing much except growing - her right eye is completely obstructed and the left eye is very very limited vision, maybe 75% obstructed. Is there anything I can do to speed things up? I was too nervous to put any ointment on the ones next to her eye. 

Also, The canker. Can you talk to me about the process when I give her the medicine? Will it fall out? Will she swallow it? Is there anything I should be doing? I see online videos of people removing them but honestly this one looks pretty stuck solid so I wouldn't want to attempt anything like that.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I had a look at the last photo you posted where one can see all the yellow in her beak. Now that looks like the pox from the outside has grown into the beak. Is there anything yellowish further down her throat? You say she does not drink a lot of water. When they have canker, they can get very thirsty. So I'm just wondering if canker is involved.

In the meantime you can give some cinnamon and turmeric powder in her food. Those are natural antibiotics. I've read in India that people put a mixture made from turmeric powder and neem oil on the growths to help them dry up quicker. Some people put diluted iodene on the growths. But some also say it is a waste of time to put anything on.

One should not remove the growths, she can bleed to death.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If you want to put on diluted iodene, do not use it close to the eyes. Rather use it on the growths on the beak and the one inside her mouth. I use metronidazole for canker, and adult pigeon will get 50 mg once daily for 7 to 10 days. Can you post a photo of the label once you receive the meds? As I said, using antibiotics will weaken her immunity, so one should be 100 % sure she has canker.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Yes I will post a picture of the meds - Sadly I got an alert that due to covid my package is held in Spain. Maybe it will arrive tomorrow? I wonder if I can get the Metronidazole here, she's still on the antibiotics I got last week, should I stop them do you think? 

inside the mouth is very large and spongey mass and its yellow. I would say about the size and shape of a crouton? Hard to tell if its a canker or pox then? I saw online that Canker smells very bad, and this doesn't smell at all. 

Today I spent about 30 minutes encouraging her to drink, dripping the water one drop at a time on her open beak, and tapping the side of the container with my nail. After 30 minutes she did two deep dives, with her entire head submerged while she gulped down the water. I was so happy to see her drinking!!! 

She also seems to be a little better today. The masses don't look as bad to me. I'm posting a picture of her just after she dunked her head the second time. I have a video of it but it's a large file and can't work out how to attach it. 

Also posting a few pics of her poop! You're welcome


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

You're an angel thank you so so much for helping her this poor little thing my heart is broken .I to have a rescue pigeon they are such wonderful birds it's so heartwarming to know that there are people out there that care as much as I do for these amazing birds .


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I feel like she was destined to find me! She knew I would keep her safe. And thank gosh for the two abandoned fledglings earlier in the summer, who were totally healthy and good practice for this little lover!

Marina, is it essential I use Iodine? She shakes her head a lot and I just feel a little unsafe doing anything so close to her eyes. Everything is in the same vicinity. If it will make a difference I'll give it a go but it's been 10 days now and I feel like the worst is past? They seem to be less angry now?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

No, the iodene is not essential. Leave it if you think it is not essential. How long has she been on the other antibiotics? That big lump in the photo is pox. How is she overall? Good appetite and keen on getting fed? Canker symptoms: losing appetite, drinking lots of water, losing feathers on the breast (under the beak), making rotating movements of crop after eating.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Also difficulty swallowing.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Morning Marina! 

Today is the 10th day of the antibiotics. 

Over all, she has absolutely no appetite. I have to force the kibble into her beak and she'll swallow it but she has no 'excited' mannerisms, and tries to get away at every opportunity. 

I would say she drank 10ml of water yesterday, total. With my encouragement. She's definitely not thirsty. 

She has started to lose feathers on her crop area - in a V shaped line down the middle. (I thought that might have been cos she's gaining weight and is still a baby). She definitely has massive difficulty swallowing, it takes her 5-10 seconds to swallow each piece of kibble. She also makes random coughing noises all day. Hard to explain the size of the lump in her throat but like I said, it's huge, about crouton size. 

She sleeps most of the day, but has moments of being alert and curious. She sleeps very deeply in the night, preferring to be in her little nest than on the perches. 

The two previous fledglings I rehabilitated were were active, pecking and chirping all day, especially when they saw me and especially when food was coming. Snuggles doesn't really react to me at all, though her vision is completely obstructed on one side and 50% impaired on the other.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I guess you can stop with the meds. The lump in her throat can be her trachea, it gets more prominent when the crop is empty. When they have canker, they also do the penquin posture after drinking, standing upright.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Okay I'll stop them, is there any reason I should start them again? Or are we just in the waiting period now for the lesions to dry up? 

Does the trachea look yellow and spongey, and huge? It's there even after she is full after a meal. I mean its massive. My husband is back tuesday so I will have him help me take a pic! I wish I could just magic you here for a quick look!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The trachea is visible in your second last photo, the one of her sitting by the waterbowl. The feathers are parted on the breast and the reddish part is the trachea. If you stroke your finger over it, you will feel the (don't know what to call it) rings on the windpipe.

I'm just worried that too much meds will overload her system. Rather focus on canker meds for now if you think she needs treatment.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Yeh I don't want to overload her for sure! Oh right I see what you mean, yes that does get pronounced when she's puffed up and her trachea does seem massive. 

If the medicine doesn't arrive today (no updated tracking so who knows) I think I will just go to the farmacia and get the medicine you suggested. Does that usually knock the canker out in a few days? How does it work?

Thanks for all your help!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

On second thoughts. I might go and get that medication now because while the mass in her beak seems to be drying up? There is a new yellowish lump at the bottom. I'm attaching some pictures, hopefully you can see. 

She weighs 240g, how many times a day should she have the medication you use for cankers and what mg? Empty stomach? Before food? I will try to get the oral suspension and tablet form as I have no clue what I'm looking for. Hopefully they have one or the other!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Well..... no luck. None of the medicines for canker are available at the farmacia. I tried 2 vets but no luck. 

I guess I will have to wait for the medicine I ordered online which is still in transit.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

If by chance your package is further delayed and you are in a pinch, try looking for metronidazole from a pet store. Primarily one that sells fish and related items. Most fish and fish supply pet shops sell "fishzole" or something equivalent. It is in fact metronidazole . Look at the ingredients, make sure its metronidazole. I'm not always on this forum, however if you are successful the purchase the community will weigh in and help you in proper dosing. I can't offer that for you now as I would need to know the milligram contents of the product.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Oh awesome!! Thanks John, there are so many pet stores around so I can check them out. It's always a bit tricky in Italian, but I will figure it out. I will get a picture when I find one and someone can probably chip in and give me the low down!


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

By the way, Great job, even greater pictures. I've treated dozens of pigeons and doves (even Java Finches) for the pox virus and I've never had a bird as symptomatic as yours. I've looked the pictures over dozens of times trying to learn whatever I can from your bird. 
You will be rewarded


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The metronidazole is the same as flagyl that you might find in a petshop that sells fish supplies as John has said. A dosage of about 35 mg once a day will be fine for 7 to 10 days. It won't hurt to give him Nystatin to prevent yeast. I don't know if you need a prescription for that.

The Nystatin needs to be given on an empty crop twice a day. So first thing in the morning, give him 0.5 ml nystatin. Then wait an hour and feed him. Then give the metro/flagyl. In the evenings, only give nystatin before feeding. The nystatin does not get absorbed into the body, is completely safe to use.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

*New Name! *

Hi John and Marina (and anyone else following along!)

First things first, we have renamed Snuggles - she is officially now "Xena Warrior Princess". It felt like given she is a such a fighter that she needed a strong brave name. 

Secondly, though it might be hard to see? The lesions are starting to crust and shrink a little. The one in her mouth is certainly less spongey, yesterday it was making her cough a lot so I got a cotton bud(Q tip) and gently used it on the mass - I would say about a chickpea sized amount detached and it made it easier for her to breathe, I think it must have been loose and tickling the back of her throat. 

I went to two pet shops yesterday and neither had the fish medication - but my DHL delivery should arrive today (We will see if that actually happens) so hopefully that will help. At the end of the week if she isn't getting visibly better in her mouth I will try to talk to my primary care manager (we are military so perhaps the air force clinic will stock the medicine that the italians don't). 

Thanks for the note about the pictures John. I have been obsessively scouring things about pigeons and pox online and I too, haven't seen any pigeon even half as affected as Xena is. I found a bird rescue in New York who posted a pic with a pigeon who looked terrible, but nothing like Xena - and her pigeon recovered fully! So I am hopeful! My plan is continue to take lots of pictures and document the process, until she is healthy and the lesions are gone! 

With that being said, here are some updated pictures of her this morning. She just ate and is enjoying the hot water bottle under the towel in her cage - its cooling down a little here in Italy and I want her to be warm and cosy! 

oh! And the left eye that was completely obstructed? Once in a while there is a little slither of eye, where she manages to open it. I am so happy! I was worried she would be blind in one or both eyes. 

OH! I almost forgot, this morning she chirped at me! For the first time ever!!! It was one loud, strong chirp, and I almost cried with happiness! The other two fledglings I looked after this summer were very vocal so I was a bit worried that Xena was so quiet. 

Hope you're having a nice day! x


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm so glad she is doing well. Amazing how a good looking dropping or a positive reaction from them can just brighten up your day. She certainly ended up in good hands.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Hi I'm so pleased that she is improving keep up the good work we are all rooting for you 👍🏻


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Good job, I'm watching closely. Love the pics

Very fortunate xena


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena is doing well - she's 288g as of today, and although the pox honestly don't look any better, she took her maiden flight across the living room yesterday (sadly grazing the door frame and falling to the floor, but not hurt)so I'm happy she's at least getting curious about the house and wanting to fly! 

She is drinking a lot more water, sometimes alone, typically with my help, and she is loving the hot water bottle as its cooling down here in Italy. The meds don't seem to be doing anything, so we will just wait as the pox run their course. 

Keeping my fingers crossed for her, as always! I'll post some pictures later on when we have some good light!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

*cosy day by the fire*

Xena is sitting in her little nest by the fire, for a change. Its a glass covered fireplace so nice and safe and I'm supervising in the chair. 

She has a hot water bottle under the towel she's on, so she's cosy on all sides! 

She's currently not taking any medication, and I've stopped using the cream on the pox as they just seem to be getting bigger no matter what I do. For now I will just make sure she's fed and watered and loved!!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

That's really lovely reminds me of when my little boy Peter was this small just a fledgeling it's really touching how they can sense that you're trying to help them .


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

*Pox getting worse*

On a quick inspection of Xena and her body, she seems to have more pox popping up - on her chest, under her wings, her back, her feet - they are only small but the ones on her face are so huge now, they must have doubled in size this week alone. 
Is there something I can be doing? Or is the best thing to be just looking after her and making sure she's clean. Like I have previously said, her bedding and cage are spotless! I wonder if the antibiotics just suppressed her immunity to allow the pox to spread a lot. I'm not giving her them anymore but I just feel so sad for her! 
I read online that pox aren't painful for them, just uncomfortable. Is this right?  My poor girl! I just wish I saw the ones on her face shrinking!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Hi there I would just like to pass on to you some useful information regarding her immune system it would be a good idea to get her on a pre-and pro biotic to help boost her gut flora which is vital for a normal strong immune system The one I use for my Pigeon Peter is sold on Amazon I'll send you a picture it is two scoops in 200 mil of water for stressed birds hope you find this useful .


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

The problem with antibiotics especially for birds is they kill off all the essential gut flora in the gut which regulates the immune system and keeps it strong .


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Rather keep her off the meds and boost her with probiotics (as Spencer has posted), vitamins and the apple cider vinegar in the drinking water. She looks so warm and cosy and happy. Just keep her well fed until she has healed. Don't worry about the pox on her body. The most important thing now is for her to be able to swallow food and not let the pox obstruct her breathing.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Okay awesome! 
I had a video call with a pigeon rescuer in London, who specializes in Pox rehab and she gave me some good tips and recommendations. Helps that she's italian so knows the system here too! I guess when the pox are as intense as Xena we just have to be ultra patient. Ive moved her crate into the lounge now next to the fire -its about 5 degrees warmer so I'm happy she's in here! 
I'll keep you all posted. 
Oh! The dangly pox scab by her beak finally fell off today, hurrah!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's great! Hope she makes a speedy recovery.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

*Xena Warrior Princess (baby snuggles)*

It's been 3 weeks since I found her, and I felt sure that by now she would have some relief. Sadly her pox kinda went hyper (perhaps because of the antibiotics? who knows) so she has even more lesions than before now. She is unable to see, as the lesions on her eyes have completely obstructed her vision, but the large lesion in her beak has reduced a lot so that's a positive. She has started to get some lesions on either side of her tongue - which both look like wet pox, as opposed to canker. I have some medication coming from a pigeon rehabber in the UK, (who has been so helpful!) she sent a package this morning via DHL next day so hopefully it arrives by tomorrow and she starts to see some improvement. 
I am now feeding her Tropican Hand-Feeding Formula, vitamin supplement and peas, so I'm happier she has all the nutrition she needs to fight this! 
She spends most of her time in the nest now, she struggles on the perch without her vision, and enjoys the hot water bottle that's under the towel. 
I'll post some pictures later, I am still hopeful that she will make a complete recovery and be releasable. Fingers crossed!!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

🤞🏻


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Has anyone given you any idea at all of how much longer this awful condition is likely to last ?poor little thing .


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Just be patient and continue as you are doing now. You are doing a great job!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi Friends!
My package arrived yesterday from the UK, so now she is getting medication both in tablet form and iodine on the pox. She has taken to pecking at her pox, and removing the lesions herself! (both scabs and live tissue) so I am keeping her clean and healthy and hoping we can fight it together! I keep forgetting to take pics but will later this evening, she looks a bit scary with all the iodine but I am happy to say part of the lesion on her right eye fell off yesterday so she now has a slither of vision! She is enjoying seeing again I think, after a week of darkness!  

Spencer I'm not sure how long, but my estimate is another 2-6 weeks depending on how the meds help! I'm happy to help as long as it takes.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena updates! 
Heres a picture of her mouth, just 10 days apart. (I'm amazed! and today her mouth is 99% clear!)

She took a single harkers 4/1 tablet, and has been taking spartrix daily. Also, acyclovir tablets daily too. 

I'll post her pox update next!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I have so many pictures it's hard to choose, so here's a progression of her face pox in the first few weeks. 

And the other pic, is last night! I'm happy to say she's cleared of all visible pox!!!! WOOHOO! 

She sadly lost her ability to stand/walk/perch last week and it was due to salmonella - so she's now on baytril to try and knock that out. She also had worms, which have been treated and aren't an issue. The problem we are facing now is her eyes - they are cloudy! She's on antibiotic drops since today and we hope its just an infection that clears.

Other than her beak being slightly scissored? She's doing so good!!!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Fantastic Work well done it looks as though she's properly on the mend she's so lucky to have you.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You've done a great job! She was lucky to be rescued by you. Well done!


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## TofuTheDove (Oct 4, 2013)

She looks much better in the last pic! Hopefully with more medication and supportive care she can recovery more soon!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I just read this thread. Remarkable recovery from such a severe and difficult case!!! Absolutely amazing!!!!! Wow, great job!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi Everyone! 
Xena continues to do well... she's got some issues with her feet/balance which are likely related to salmonella but she's still on meds so I'm hopeful she'll recover! She has regained vision in one eye but I'm confident the other is completely blind. She can't stand yet but she's more than happy in a little towel nest. She's pretty playful, and likes to interact with me and nip at my nails, but she mainly likes to sleep and relax with her little legs outstretched. 
The pox on her body have completely gone now, and she's almost healed from all the lesions. She has a lingering pox in her beak nostril and one inside her beak, but other than that, she's doing really well. She's fighting!! I feel like her story will inspire others to persevere through even the most difficult cases... I am a complete beginner with pox and salmonella and all the issues she's had but we have learned together and look at her now! Thanks for all the help and love for her! I'm just gonna keep praying that she can stand soon!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

She is so cute! Are you giving vitamins and calcium with added Vit D3? This will also help.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi Marina! Her vitamin mix has everything she needs including the two you mentioned!  She is very very cute!!!!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi Marina! Her vitamin mix has everything she needs including the two you mentioned!  She is very very cute!!!!


 Hi I agree with Marina she is very very cute so heartwarming to see her doing so well just fantastic 🙂


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

She looks much, much better!! I am slightly worried that her left leg is becoming deformed though. Her foot should not be in front of her body like that. Perhaps you may try to place her foot underneath her body, and keep repositioning it often. I hope she doesnt have any permament joint damage or dislocation. Perhaps a soft, loose sling, strap, or rubber band wrapped around both ankles that will keep the bad leg in a correct position with the other leg will help over time. There are plenty of websites with treatment options addressing "splay leg" that may help.

She looks much better, and is well on the road of recovery!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

hi 


jonrf said:


> She looks much, much better!! I am slightly worried that her left leg is becoming deformed though. Her foot should not be in front of her body like that. Perhaps you may try to place her foot underneath her body, and keep repositioning it often. I hope she doesnt have any permament joint damage or dislocation. Perhaps a soft, loose sling, strap, or rubber band wrapped around both ankles that will keep the bad leg in a correct position with the other leg will help over time. There are plenty of websites with treatment options addressing "splay leg" that may help.
> 
> She looks much better, and is well on the road of recovery!


Hi Jonrf!

I have been worried about her legs since she lost the use of them a few weeks ago... so we are on the same track! Basically, she's had salmonella since I got her but I mistook the boils on her shoulders as pox (they actually had pox on them so were disguised) so only realized she was suffering once she wasnt able to stand or perch - luckily I had baytril so was able to begin treatment, but it had been almost 3.5 weeks so the salmonella was likely pretty advanced by then. I am doing PT with her every day but the joints on her legs are extremely swollen and have yellow/pus pockets visible under the skin, so the vet said to just let her find her own way back to standing and perching once she's not suffering so much. When I stretch her legs out its obviously uncomfortable for her, and she has absolutely no balance at the moment so she struggles a bit but things are improving! I will also say, that she lost vision for 3 wish weeks when the lesions obstructed her eyes and then with the infection, so I think she's just getting used to things again. You'll be pleased to know that yesterday for the first time, she sat with her feet almost entirely under her, and again this morning, she's sitting on my torso now, with her feet completely under her! The swelling on her joints is going down so I assume she is getting used to being a pigeon again. She can't stand yet but in the last 12 hours she's been stretching and kinda balancing on her legs for a few seconds at a time every hour or two, so I can only guess she's getting stronger and curious about the little things under her body!  A few weeks ago I was worried she wouldn't use her legs at all, as she wasnt able to move her toes or grip and the legs were boiling hot to the touch while the toes were freezing cold. Im just pleased to see some improvement! I'm posting some pics of her and her little legs under her body! The ones on the purple washcloth are yesterday, and the sparkly one is now..... she is getting better! 
My dogs have a vet appointment here on Saturday so I am taking her too, and he'll take a peak at the salmonella - fingers crossed its just a slow recovery! 
Sorry for the essay!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi Joey,

I am relieved the little guy is now resting with the legs underneath!  That is most reassuring. Often, during a severe PMV/Pox outbreak, opportunistic salmonella bacteria will take advantage of a depressed immune system and manifest as abcesses, often around joints. Also, after systemic antibiotic treatment, new puss-filled boils will often appear around the joints or extremities, but are post infection, and not infective. My worry in such cases would be secondary infections from open lesions. Another concern would be joint immobilization from abcesses, which then could cause ankylosis, a condition due to a permament fusing of the joint. Physical therapy, or stretchings, will alleviate and eliminate that problem. Since the little one is standing a little on its own to stretch it is a very good sign indeed!

I also noticed that the lower beak is slightly off to one side. You can gently and slowly apply a little pressure with your fingers and press it back to a normal position several times a day to correct the alignment issue over time, once the pox/swelling has healed and cleared.

Other than that, providing some liquid vitamins now, and then a mineral grit picking block (after another month) will help in recovery and development. Adding some probiotics to the water after all antibiotics are administered will help to regain a healthy gut flora balance, and ensure good recovery and growth through proper digestion.

The little one sure looks much better. You have done a great job! Thanks for helping the little guy and saving its life!

~ Jon


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Incredible, I can't believe its the same bird. Good job soldier


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Hi Joey,
> 
> I am relieved the little guy is now resting with the legs underneath!  That is most reassuring. Often, during a severe PMV/Pox outbreak, opportunistic salmonella bacteria will take advantage of a depressed immune system and manifest as abcesses, often around joints. Also, after systemic antibiotic treatment, new puss-filled boils will often appear around the joints or extremities, but are post infection, and not infective. My worry in such cases would be secondary infections from open lesions. Another concern would be joint immobilization from abcesses, which then could cause ankylosis, a condition due to a permament fusing of the joint. Physical therapy, or stretchings, will alleviate and eliminate that problem. Since the little one is standing a little on its own to stretch it is a very good sign indeed!
> 
> ...



Yesterday she managed to stand on my hand, and kinda perch there for a few minutes! She's definitely improving. One side seems to have a slightly misaligned foot (she struggles to stand on it straight, almost balancing on the edge instead - but its getting better so I'm gonna hope it sorts itself out as she grows stronger!

Her beak is almost entirely corrected. If you look back at earlier pics it was about 1/2 an inch scissored at the worst point so I'm hopeful that will work itself out too. Sadly the bottom beak is quite a lot wider on one side where there was a large lesion - so I wonder if that will shrink as her beak matures? She has two lesions/dry pox in her beak at the moment so I try not to mess with her too much, as I already have to clean and treat them several times a day. Out of curiosity I have tried to position the beak gently and it will go into the correct place but either way, there is a large open space where the lower beak is so much bigger. 

Ive been administering vitamins and pro/pre bionics daily, as well as milk thistle and ACV and electrolytes when needed. Thankfully I have an experienced pigeon rehabber in the UK helping me with that, but appreciate the agreement!  

She's really fighting to stand up and perch, attaching some pics! when she gets tired she rests on my hands for a moment before she stretches her legs and tries again! ps: She looks a bit straggly/oily in these pics - we had just done her TCP and acyclovir treatments!


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## Hania41806 (Oct 21, 2020)

Marina B said:


> No, the iodene is not essential. Leave it if you think it is not essential. How long has she been on the other antibiotics? That big lump in the photo is pox. How is she overall? Good appetite and keen on getting fed? Canker symptoms: losing appetite, drinking lots of water, losing feathers on the breast (under the beak), making rotating movements of crop after eating.


Ok wait, i have 3 questions. 1 If a bird is losing feathers under the beak, would they go completely bald in that spot? 2 Could they also instead of losing feathers under the beak, lose them all over the lower part of the crop? 3 Can Canker treat itself in a pigeon? I'm asking because I had a 2 pigeons, one adult and one baby, the baby lost all of his feathers on his lower crop but got them back after molting. When I got the adult (I got him with all my other birds), a large patch of feathers was completely gone from under his beak but I assumed they were just plucked by other adult birds (when I got them they were very hostile towards each other, around food mainly)


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hania41806 said:


> Ok wait, i have 3 questions. 1 If a bird is losing feathers under the beak, would they go completely bald in that spot? 2 Could they also instead of losing feathers under the beak, lose them all over the lower part of the crop? 3 Can Canker treat itself in a pigeon? I'm asking because I had a 2 pigeons, one adult and one baby, the baby lost all of his feathers on his lower crop but got them back after molting. When I got the adult (I got him with all my other birds), a large patch of feathers was completely gone from under his beak but I assumed they were just plucked by other adult birds (when I got them they were very hostile towards each other, around food mainly)


Hi Hania
Im not sure about the questions mainly - hopefully some of the more experienced pigeon experts can help!
I think canker has to treated because I know it can kill them, do you think they had it? or currently do?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Hi Joey,
> 
> I am relieved the little guy is now resting with the legs underneath!  That is most reassuring. Often, during a severe PMV/Pox outbreak, opportunistic salmonella bacteria will take advantage of a depressed immune system and manifest as abcesses, often around joints. Also, after systemic antibiotic treatment, new puss-filled boils will often appear around the joints or extremities, but are post infection, and not infective. My worry in such cases would be secondary infections from open lesions. Another concern would be joint immobilization from abcesses, which then could cause ankylosis, a condition due to a permament fusing of the joint. Physical therapy, or stretchings, will alleviate and eliminate that problem. Since the little one is standing a little on its own to stretch it is a very good sign indeed!
> 
> ...


Jon - I am glad you mentioned the new boils, because 4 or 5 around the edge of her wings have appeared. Are these likely late stage salmonella indications? Nothing I need to do? How long will they take to go.... any help would be appreciated! Joey


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena Update 
(day 38 since I initially found her)
She saw the vet today who confirmed one eye is indeed blind, but she has vision in the other so I'm happy! The good eye had not been closing as the lesion had ripped the outer eyelid, but today she has managed to fully close her eyes when sleeping so I assume she's healing well! 

She's also doing a lot pf perching and trying hard to balance - she has snapped off all of he beautiful tail feathers so she looks a little funny at the moment but lots of her bald spots are growing feathers back so I am confident one day she will be fully feathered again!  

She's certainly being more active and sassy in the day, she's such a character!  I look back at the pictures and can't believe she's the same bird!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Hania41806 said:


> Ok wait, i have 3 questions. 1 If a bird is losing feathers under the beak, would they go completely bald in that spot? 2 Could they also instead of losing feathers under the beak, lose them all over the lower part of the crop? 3 Can Canker treat itself in a pigeon? I'm asking because I had a 2 pigeons, one adult and one baby, the baby lost all of his feathers on his lower crop but got them back after molting. When I got the adult (I got him with all my other birds), a large patch of feathers was completely gone from under his beak but I assumed they were just plucked by other adult birds (when I got them they were very hostile towards each other, around food mainly)


Losing feathers under the beak and breast can be a symptom of canker. Canker won't cure itself in a pigeon, one needs to give antibiotics. Metronidazole works well.


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## Hania41806 (Oct 21, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi Hania
> Im not sure about the questions mainly - hopefully some of the more experienced pigeon experts can help!
> I think canker has to treated because I know it can kill them, do you think they had it? or currently do?


I think one of them may have had it, when I first got him he had a lot of feathers missing below his beak and he was really weak (couldn't walk or fly). I brought him into my garage and put him in a cage (not big enough for flying because I didn't want him to waste his energy), i supplied fresh food and water and he eventually got better after about 2-3 weeks and got his feathers back after recently during molting season.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Morning!!! 















Just thought I would share some pics of little Xena this morning. She has a small lesion on the left side of her beak which is almost gone, and one inside her beak which is finally shrinking. She still has the salmonella boils, but they are shrinking and she's moving around happily now! Happy to say all the PT we did which she hated, paid off! She seems to be fully mobile on her legs. Oh and millions of feathers have come on this week, so she preens all day long! 

I can't believe she's the same bird. So far the only issue is that she's blind in one eye, but that's totally manageable and she's doing great with the one eye! 

Hope everyone is well!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Job well done! She is looking so good with all those shiny feathers. Pox must be the worst thing that can happen to a pigeon. After this episode, you will be able to rescue anything that comes your way. Thanks for the update!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Morning!!!
> View attachment 96264
> View attachment 96265
> 
> ...


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Wow she's looking absolutely fantastic you've done such a great job well done she certainly is a real little cutie.👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I can't wait until she's a bigger girl and she preens all these feathers out! She gets tired so easily in the day, still on the meds to try and knock out the salmonella which we hope will be gone soon! 

Thanks guys. It's so exciting to see her thrive!


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Joeyspesh said:


> Morning!!!
> View attachment 96264
> View attachment 96265
> 
> Just thought I would share some pics of little Xena this morning. She has a small lesion on the left side of her beak which is almost gone, and one inside her beak which is finally shrinking. She still has the salmonella boils, but they are shrinking and she's moving around happily now! Happy to say all the PT we did which she hated, paid off! She seems to be fully mobile on her legs. Oh and millions of feathers have come on this week, so she preens all day long!


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

I can't believe she's the same bird. So far the only issue is that she's blind in one eye, but that's totally manageable and she's doing great with the one eye!



Incredible job. Isn't it rewarding. I've treated many pox pigeons but I've never treated or seen a case of pigeon pox like Xena's. Love the pics. 

It's a good thing Xena has you to care for her. Even IF she survived the pox in the wild, she would never have lived very long in the wild with the loss of an eye. Xena will still be a great pet. I have a totally blind turtle dove who is a sweetheart that demands itchies and classical music to be playing thru the day. I had a white pigeon I lost recently who lost an eye from PMV when he was 1 year old, he lived 13 beautiful years.

We get a lot of rescue pigeons and doves with eye problems, each with different causes. Most common problem here is eye worms. Second most common eye problems is from PMV . And then lastly, the pox virus. After treatment I have come to borrow a protocol from a fellow avian rescuer and give ample amounts of manganese, and selenium. Since we started this mineral regiment we see almost zero blindness in both the pigeons and doves that get early treatment. To help keep Xena's remaining eye healthy it might be worth the effort. 

I enjoyed your journey


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## Hania41806 (Oct 21, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Morning!!!
> View attachment 96264
> View attachment 96265
> 
> ...


You can barely recognize her! I'm so glad she had a loving and caring person like you to give her another chance at life. Thank you, kind person!


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

John B said:


> I can't believe she's the same bird. So far the only issue is that she's blind in one eye, but that's totally manageable and she's doing great with the one eye!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no idea where the first sentence came from


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi John! 

"After treatment I have come to borrow a protocol from a fellow avian rescuer and give ample amounts of manganese, and selenium"... can you tell me more about these? Specific avian manganese, and selenium or widely available? 

Xena is a hefty 332g today, and happy as a clam! The salmonella seems to be holding on, she has the boils around the edges of her wings and the ones on her shoulders but she seems so much better, Her feathers are so funny, she looks like she's been dragged through a bush backwards!

I have a new Pigeon rescue who I suspect has PMV, would love your input! I'm going to start a new thread .....


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hania41806 said:


> You can barely recognize her! I'm so glad she had a loving and caring person like you to give her another chance at life. Thank you, kind person!


I'm so happy! She fought so hard!!! And she's so amazing!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

This is my new thread John! Hopefully you can chip in!  (And all of the other experienced rescuers!)










New Rescue - Cher Ami - suspected PMV


Hi All! I have received a new rescue today, a beautiful pigeon that the family named "Cher Ami" after the famous military pigeon! Anyway.... as soon as I saw her I suspected PMV, I have never seen or experienced a pigeon with it but obviously during the last 2 months with Xena I have been...




www.pigeons.biz


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Job well done! She is looking so good with all those shiny feathers. Pox must be the worst thing that can happen to a pigeon. After this episode, you will be able to rescue anything that comes your way. Thanks for the update!


Hi Marina!

As you seem to be experienced, maybe you could take a peak at my new thread? Would love any help! 









New Rescue - Cher Ami - suspected PMV


Hi All! I have received a new rescue today, a beautiful pigeon that the family named "Cher Ami" after the famous military pigeon! Anyway.... as soon as I saw her I suspected PMV, I have never seen or experienced a pigeon with it but obviously during the last 2 months with Xena I have been...




www.pigeons.biz


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi Marina!
> 
> As you seem to be experienced, maybe you could take a peak at my new thread? Would love any help!
> 
> ...


Xena continues to be as cute as can be, and is managing well without her right eye, and tail feathers! (She’s definitely blind in the right eye and she snapped all the tail feathers off when she couldn’t use her legs) but all her little grey fluffy feathers are coming in and she’s starting to grow some on her face so I’m sure her transformation will be complete soon! Her salmonella boils are still quite prominent, she’s Been on baytril for almost a month now so as her poop is finally not containing bubbles I’ll stop her in a few days and start a full throttle vitamin and supplement regimen to get her back to full health as soon as possible! She’s still not able to eat herself so once the baytril stops that’s the next thing to teach her!
For now I’m just glad that she’s fought through and is adorable! I can’t wait until she’s off the formula and meds and can be a bit more independent!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Just wonderful bless her 🙂👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Just wonderful bless her 🙂👍🏻


My husband is finally coming around to her, she seems to be bonded with us all now / including the dogs! Pigeons are so adorable!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)




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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

I just love this picture fantastic yes Pigeons certainly are adorable and unbelievably intelligent as well .I've had my boy for 14 months now after rescuing him as a fledgeling from a buckets of used engine oil at my place of work every day he amazes me with how smart he is and unbelievably stubborn he wants to do what he wants to do and will only come to me when he feels like it but I wouldn't want him any other way. It is so satisfying to see what a beautiful adult male Pigeon my Peter has grown into and gratifying when The avian vets tell me what a beautiful bird and what great condition he is in very satisfying indeed.🙂


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Feel free to share a picture! Would love to see him!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)




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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

This is my handsome fella Peter


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)




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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> This is my handsome fella Peter


aww he's lovely!!! Does he live in the house with you?


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi John!
> 
> "After treatment I have come to borrow a protocol from a fellow avian rescuer and give ample amounts of manganese, and selenium"... can you tell me more about these? Specific avian manganese, and selenium or widely available?
> 
> ...


There are avian specific vitamins with these minerals but I compound these along and other minerals with off the shelf vitamins. 1 part manganese, one part selenium, 1/4 part zinc, one part calcium. I crush the vitamins, mix together and sprinkle once maybe twice a week on their grit, or seeds, or a treat like sunflower. My birds seem to enjoy the mineral mix and will go out of their way to eat anything dusted with the minerals. 

By the way, the remaining boils on Xena's wings, can you post a pic. I would like to see the color of the boils.

I'll weigh in on the possible PMV post later tonight .


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> aww he's lovely!!! Does he live in the house with you?





Joeyspesh said:


> aww he's lovely!!! Does he live in the house with you?


 Yes he does live in the house as a matter of fact he has his own room he is spoiled rotten.I will say one thing I was so surprised to discover what fantastic pets Pigeons can be but it would be nice if they're not such messy eaters seed everywhere . and believe it or not the poo isn't too bad at all I have one of those handheld steamers which sorts out any tricky mess no chemicals needed which is essential.he is free flying all day and only sleeps in his cage which suits me fine they really are fantastic birds .


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Yes he does live in the house as a matter of fact he has his own room he is spoiled rotten.I will say one thing I was so surprised to discover what fantastic pets Pigeons can be but it would be nice if they're not such messy eaters seed everywhere . and believe it or not the poo isn't too bad at all I have one of those handheld steamers which sorts out any tricky mess no chemicals needed which is essential.he is free flying all day and only sleeps in his cage which suits me fine they really are fantastic birds .


Wow that’s awesome that he has his own room! What a lucky boy! I’m excited for Xena to start being interested in flying! She gets a little lift when she flaps, but typically she’s only flying a few feet at most in a downward direction (if I’m holding her she might fly to the couch for example if we’re close, but she always crash lands perhaps due to her blind eye or her missing tail feathers? Or maybe just inexperience. At any rate she’s 360g now and super strong when she flaps so I’m sure she’ll have no problem when she’s ready!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

John B said:


> There are avian specific vitamins with these minerals but I compound these along and other minerals with off the shelf vitamins. 1 part manganese, one part selenium, 1/4 part zinc, one part calcium. I crush the vitamins, mix together and sprinkle once maybe twice a week on their grit, or seeds, or a treat like sunflower. My birds seem to enjoy the mineral mix and will go out of their way to eat anything dusted with the minerals.
> 
> By the way, the remaining boils on Xena's wings, can you post a pic. I would like to see the color of the boils.
> 
> I'll weigh in on the possible PMV post later tonight .


When she wakes up I’ll snap a pic for you. I believe there’s only one boil on the edge of her wing now, the shoulder ones are slowly reducing in size and look less angry!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Wow she is 360 g already that's really good what you will probably find she shall start doing something i used to call toe hopping where she will lift her self right up on the tips of her toes and start flappeing her wings vigourously she will start to hover for a couple of seconds just off the ground quite amusing really reminds me of those old black-and-white films from the start of the 20th century of man's first attempts at flight . And then all of a sudden before you know it she's got the hang of it and flying all over the place in the room that's quite a moment .


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

John B said:


> There are avian specific vitamins with these minerals but I compound these along and other minerals with off the shelf vitamins. 1 part manganese, one part selenium, 1/4 part zinc, one part calcium. I crush the vitamins, mix together and sprinkle once maybe twice a week on their grit, or seeds, or a treat like sunflower. My birds seem to enjoy the mineral mix and will go out of their way to eat anything dusted with the minerals.
> 
> By the way, the remaining boils on Xena's wings, can you post a pic. I would like to see the color of the boils.
> 
> I'll weigh in on the possible PMV post later tonight .


Hi John!

hope you’re having a nice day!
Here’s a pic of her boil - hard to snap a super clear pic. Do you think it’s end of salmonella?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Wow she is 360 g already that's really good what you will probably find she shall start doing something i used to call toe hopping where she will lift her self right up on the tips of her toes and start flappeing her wings vigourously she will start to hover for a couple of seconds just off the ground quite amusing really reminds me of those old black-and-white films from the start of the 20th century of man's first attempts at flight . And then all of a sudden before you know it she's got the hang of it and flying all over the place in the room that's quite a moment .


yeh she’s a chonky girl!!! She does a little bit of that in the morning when I take the lid off her cat crate! (She sleeps in there) she just lifts a tiny bit! How much doesPeter weigh?


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

My boy is normally around 363 g apparently an adult Pigeon should weigh anything from 350 g up to 370 so your little one is doing really well.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She’s a fatty then!!! Wood pigeons are bigger than ferals from what i understand and she’s a woodie!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

So she's a woodie that explains a lot so she's going to be a big girl . Wood pigeons are great little characters. Can't wait to see when she starts getting her adult plumage . I have one of this year's juveniles that comes to my garden every morning really is a lovely little thing .


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)




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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

just wonderful I think your little one gets just as spoilt as my Peter I'm guessing she is looking absolutely fantastic 🙂👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She’s puked a few times in the last 2 days so I’m keeping an even closer eye on her! (She’s just been off the baytril, after 40 days, so I’m guessing she just has a very upset tummy. I have a ridiculous amount of supplements and tonics that she’s having so I’m just loading her with vitamins to help her recover! No puking today so fingers crossed she’s balancing out a little. She’s so pretty! Her face is growing feathers, and the corner of her mouth on the blind side that had a stubborn lesion is now completely clear! She has a lesion inside her beak still but it’s drying up and shrinking so just being patient with that one. Having pigeons who were poorly is pretty consuming!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Poor little thing she certainly has been through a hell of a lot is she drinking okay ? Have you thought what her future is going to be when she's fully mature are you going to keep her or try and release her back to the wild?i know it can be very tricky when you've been hand rearing such a young Pigeon for such a long length of time to return them back to nature it might be a very good idea to have a word with Marina b regarding this when you feel the time is right the lady is so knowledgeable. I made the decision to make a life time commitment to Peter after researching what I should consider about his future I quickly learnt that it's not so easy just to release them back to nature they learn so much from their parents in their early days regarding how to survive. And I'm sure there must be a very strong bond between the two of you by now as well which is a wonderful thing . Having said that I'm not at all sure if things might be slightly different with wood pigeons as Peter is a feral and feral pigeons are semi domesticated making them very comfortable around people . How is her right eye looking any improvement ?


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi John!
> 
> hope you’re having a nice day!
> Here’s a pic of her boil - hard to snap a super clear pic. Do you think it’s end of salmonella?


 It is indeed whats left of Paratyphoid (salmonella). Thought it might be papillomas, but definitely not papillomas.
40 days is a long course of antibiotics. Are you administering Nystatin or dacastatin?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Sadly I can’t get that here John, Italy is tricky for accessing meds. I have a rehabber in the UK who sends me meds but the last package got returned by DHL so that’s now flagged our address. I found a similar product on amazon but can’t figure out if it’s the same? No ingredients are listed. I’ll post a pic.
Spencer / the vet told us because she’s blind in one eye she’s not releasable, she’s definitely gonna be with us now! When I realized she was gonna be here I handled her and loved on her a lot more! She was so tiny when I got her, so I think she’s pretty much a family member now!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

That's wonderful that she staying with you I'm sure she'll be very happy . she is so lucky that you found her 🙂 Pigeons really do bring so much joy and fun .


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Joeyspesh said:


> Sadly I can’t get that here John, Italy is tricky for accessing meds. I have a rehabber in the UK who sends me meds but the last package got returned by DHL so that’s now flagged our address. I found a similar product on amazon but can’t figure out if it’s the same? No ingredients are listed. I’ll post a pic.
> Spencer / the vet told us because she’s blind in one eye she’s not releasable, she’s definitely gonna be with us now! When I realized she was gonna be here I handled her and loved on her a lot more! She was so tiny when I got her, so I think she’s pretty much a family member now!
> View attachment 96322


yes, thats nystatin, treats fungi. 
Probiotic also

I'll say it again: Good Job!


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

John B said:


> yes, thats nystatin, treats fungi.
> Probiotic also
> 
> I'll say it again: Good Job!


That did not come out correctly, in addition to the nystatin he will need probiotics. You might already be doing this, not sure.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Poor little thing she certainly has been through a hell of a lot is she drinking okay ? Have you thought what her future is going to be when she's fully mature are you going to keep her or try and release her back to the wild?i know it can be very tricky when you've been hand rearing such a young Pigeon for such a long length of time to return them back to nature it might be a very good idea to have a word with Marina b regarding this when you feel the time is right the lady is so knowledgeable. I made the decision to make a life time commitment to Peter after researching what I should consider about his future I quickly learnt that it's not so easy just to release them back to nature they learn so much from their parents in their early days regarding how to survive. And I'm sure there must be a very strong bond between the two of you by now as well which is a wonderful thing . Having said that I'm not at all sure if things might be slightly different with wood pigeons as Peter is a feral and feral pigeons are semi domesticated making them very comfortable around people . How is her right eye looking any improvement ?


By the way, her right eye is for sure blind, (confirmed by the vet) the other is good though! It has some fibrous cell on the actual eyeball from the pox, but it seems to be reducing! This was last week and there’s less white/cloudy areas so I think it’s regenerating. The eye drop antibiotics really saved her sight, because her whole eye was milky/blue green until we used them!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

John B said:


> yes, thats nystatin, treats fungi.
> Probiotic also
> 
> I'll say it again: Good Job!


Thanks John! I understood that to mean exactly what you clarified. I’m using these supplements with her as well as b12 and milk thistle which aren’t pictured! The plan is to load her up with everything she needs to recover and grow big and strong!!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Ps. I ordered that Nystatin, thank you for the clarification! She continues to gag/try to puke when she eats, even though I’ve reduced the volume by 1/3.... i think she’s struggling after being on the baytril so long, I hope the nystatin makes a difference! For now I just stay with her after she eats and don’t let her puke.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm glad you are keeping her! She will have a long good life with you!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> I'm glad you are keeping her! She will have a long good life with you!


I’m so glad too! Her feathers are coming in and she’s changing every day! Such a pretty girl! 🥰 marina what birds do you have?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

In my big aviary I have a few handraised pigeons, too tame for release. Then doves, starlings and weavers which all can't fly due to injuries. The 1 starling I handraised and released him a while ago. For 4 days he sat on the roof of the aviary looking miserable. Then I caught him again and he was so happy to be back with the others. So freedom is not always the best choice.

The other part of the aviary has a few feral pigeons and ex racing pigeons that arrived here and just moved in. This part can open so they can free fly outside and return again.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Oh how lovely! I want an aviary, but as we are military we move around a lot, i darent get a lot of rescues that I’m in a pickle with when we have to leave Italy! Xena will be our pet forever, but Cher I’m hoping will get to a sanctuary if she can’t be released. Because she has PMV and is so contagious I don’t spend as much time with her, hoping she has a chance to be a wild pigeon one day! We will see!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena is looking so pretty and fluffy at the moment? I’m trying to teach her to eat but she just can’t seem to figure it out, she pecks but never swallows! She just plays with them. Maybe when she gets a bit bigger she’ll want to eat seeds instead of have a party with them 😂😂 - but all in all? She’s doing so well! Preening alllll day long, and today she took her first solo flight across the room, when I was out getting firewood. I left her in one spot and came back to her the opposite side of the room so she not only managed to fly, but land! Yay!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Isn't she beautiful 👍🏻


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96359
> Xena is looking so pretty and fluffy at the moment? I’m trying to teach her to eat but she just can’t seem to figure it out, she pecks but never swallows! She just plays with them. Maybe when she gets a bit bigger she’ll want to eat seeds instead of have a party with them 😂😂 - but all in all? She’s doing so well! Preening alllll day long, and today she took her first solo flight across the room, when I was out getting firewood. I left her in one spot and came back to her the opposite side of the room so she not only managed to fly, but land! Yay!





Spencer said:


> Isn't she beautiful 👍🏻


 She's really starting to look like a proper little wood pigeon now


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can play with the seeds by using your fingers. Push the seed around with your finger. This will hopefully get her interested. The ones I've raised, always started eating the red sorghum seeds first. They also love hemp seeds.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I have tried everything, like I said, she just plays with them. (She will pick them up in her beak but won't swallow). I can't give hemp as we are military, but I have tried all others and its the same. I am hopeful she will get bigger and change her mind!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> She's really starting to look like a proper little wood pigeon now


She is!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I can’t believe how big she is now! I’m going to treat her for candida today as she’s doing a lot of gagging... i hope it helps! Does anyone know the dosage for Nystatin, based on her current weight of 382g? I don’t wanna get it wrong!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Every new picture we see of her there is a significant change so wonderful to see her thriving 382 g wow 👍🏻🙂


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

They need 30 000 units for every 100 gr birdweight. Usually there's a 100 000 units per ml, you can just check the strength.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Given for 5 to 7 days, sometimes up to 10 days. Let us know if there's an improvement after a couple of days. Also give twice a day on an empty crop. Wait half an hour before feeding or drinking.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Thanks Marina! So i will give her 1.15ml twice a day. I just have her the first dose, I hope she stops gagging! That’s the only thing I can think it is.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Every new picture we see of her there is a significant change so wonderful to see her thriving 382 g wow 👍🏻🙂





Marina B said:


> Given for 5 to 7 days, sometimes up to 10 days. Let us know if there's an improvement after a couple of days. Also give twice a day on an empty crop. Wait half an hour before feeding or drinking.


So Xena has the nystatin last night, this morning and tonight. I always give it 45 mins before her meal. Tonight was the first time she hasn’t retched (yet)... fingers crossed it’s starting to clear up! How will I know if it should be 5 or 7 days Marina?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> So Xena has the nystatin last night, this morning and tonight. I always give it 45 mins before her meal. Tonight was the first time she hasn’t retched (yet)... fingers crossed it’s starting to clear up! How will I know if it should be 5 or 7 days Marina?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Rather give for 7 days to be sure, till the swallowing problems are gone. You can give for up to 10 days if necessary. Thereafter, acv in the drinking water twice a week will keep the yeast from recurring.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Rather give for 7 days to be sure, till the swallowing problems are gone. You can give for up to 10 days if necessary. Thereafter, acv in the drinking water twice a week will keep the yeast from recurring.


Thank you! 🥰


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Awesome news! The little stubborn pox from inside Xenas beak, (sticking out in the pic where she’s snuggled up) was a little loose today, so I gave it a wipe with TCP and it came right out! (Sorry, grosse! But so interesting!) she’s now got a little hole where it was, but that’s officially the last of the pox!
I can’t believe she’s the same girl! I’m so happy, she’s doing so well! Thank you all for the help and support.... 🥰 I’ll keep sharing pics as she grows up and transforms into a beautiful pigeon!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

So glad she is recovering well!!!

Her improvement is great! As far as the eye is concerned, this may take some time to heal, or it may be permament unfortunately, depending on involvement or damage. She is young so she should heal quickly!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Has her swallowing improved on the Nystatin?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Has her swallowing improved on the Nystatin?


well Marina, yes and no! I think perhaps she is now growing up to hate the tube feeding.... it seems behavioral because it seems to be the tube that makes her gag now. Yesterday she gagged when she saw the syringe! (I’ve tube fed her since mid September without any problems, so it’s so strange that she hates it so much now, but I’m taking that as a good sign that she will be more motivated to try to eat!) the gagging has reduced for sure, but not stopped just yet.

i haven’t noticed any chance in her droppings, I wanna start giving her seed again but I’m being patient. I don’t want to put her off them, or associate them with the gagging... so I’m waiting until the gagging stops and she’s off the meds. I actually think it might be easier for her to eat now the mass in her beak is gone!

as far as the seeds, I got a more exciting/varied pigeon mix, just for her to play with. Wherever she is I’ll sprinkle a little amount on a towel, and she typically pecks at them on and off all day. She chatters them in the tip of her beak, and then drops them. It’s not like she is seed tossing as such, just unable to figure out how to get them into her beak. In the last month I’ve watched her eat one tiny black seed and I think that was a fluke! 😂

I’ll keep you posted on the Nystatin!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> So glad she is recovering well!!!
> 
> Her improvement is great! As far as the eye is concerned, this may take some time to heal, or it may be permament unfortunately, depending on involvement or damage. She is young so she should heal quickly!


 Hi! What are you referring to with her eye?

the eye that’s blind, I understand from the vet has no chance of change...

The other eye? Seems to be getting better in a really tiny way, when I study the pictures! I notice she rubs her face on her shoulder a lot, which often irritates the membrane around her eye that ripped when the pox came off. It looks great some days and quite irritated on other days. She’s growing tiny little feathers in the bald spots that were covered in pox, so I’m pretty pleased at her healing already! I’ll try and find pics of her eyes during the process so maybe you can see the healing too!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi! What are you referring to with her eye?
> 
> the eye that’s blind, I understand from the vet has no chance of change...
> 
> The other eye? Seems to be getting better in a really tiny way, when I study the pictures! I notice she rubs her face on her shoulder a lot, which often irritates the membrane around her eye that ripped when the pox came off. It looks great some days and quite irritated on other days. She’s growing tiny little feathers in the bald spots that were covered in pox, so I’m pretty pleased at her healing already! I’ll try and find pics of her eyes during the process so maybe you can see the healing too!


Found some! Okay so the first is after part of the pox fell off, and her eye was unobstructed. (It was covered for a good few weeks and looked terrible before this! As you can see, her eye was completely cloudy. At this point I was concerned she was blind and took her to the vets, the antibiotic drops did the trick and the cloudiness started to dissipate! The second picture is when she managed to rip the pox off (a few days after) hence the rip in the eyelid. The third picture was a little while later and I felt the eyelid was going to heal really nicely. At that point the cloudiness was almost gone entirely,... but sadly that’s the best it’s looked since! More often than not the eyelid where it’s ripped is red and inflamed. I’ll try and get a good picture today in the sunlight!
The vet had said that the good eye might one day regenerate, but he felt it was just fibrous cells on the eyeballs, and wouldn’t interfere with her vision. She seems to do really well.
Let me know if you (or anyone) have any further input about her eyes! 🥰


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

So many updates, sorry for the overload!
I decided to try her with peas today. I thought something with a shape but is soft would perhaps be easier than seeds ... she had 13 peas before she got fed up, (i fed her but she started to refuse) and then shortly after she vomited 5 up. Im not going to continue with the peas.... I’ll see if the 7 days of nystatin stops the vomiting.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Joeyspesh said:


> So many updates, sorry for the overload!
> I decided to try her with peas today. I thought something with a shape but is soft would perhaps be easier than seeds ... she had 13 peas before she got fed up, (i fed her but she started to refuse) and then shortly after she vomited 5 up. Im not going to continue with the peas.... I’ll see if the 7 days of nystatin stops the vomiting.


If there is a yeast overgrowth in the crop or proventriculus, the nystatin will definately help. The swelling will subside if there was a lesion interfering with digestion. Maybe she is not accustomed to peas, and was overstuffed. She looks remarkably better and the cloudiness in the eye should go away over time. Make sure she is receiving a little vitamin E and C in her vitamins as this helps with eye damage. Like I said earlier, she is quite young and will heal and recover much more quickly than an older pigeon.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> If there is a yeast overgrowth in the crop or proventriculus, the nystatin will definately help. The swelling will subside if there was a lesion interfering with digestion. Maybe she is not accustomed to peas, and was overstuffed. She looks remarkably better and the cloudiness in the eye should go away over time. Make sure she is receiving a little vitamin E and C in her vitamins as this helps with eye damage. Like I said earlier, she is quite young and will heal and recover much more quickly than an older pigeon.


She’s been gagging/retching for almost a week now, with everything. She tries to bring the formula up but can’t because it’s liquid, I think the only reason she brought the peas up is because they are solid. (She was bringing up seeds too before I stopped giving any solids).

It’s strange because she was managing peas and seeds for almost a month.

I’m sure she wasn’t overstuffed, her crop was empty and she only had 13 peas - she used to have double that.

She was on baytril for more than a month for the salmonella so I am just hoping she has candida in her crop and that’s the reason for gagging?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Just wondering: For how long did you treat her for canker? Have you checked inside her beak lately? Use a flashlight and check deep inside the throat.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I check her for canker every few days, with a flashlight. I’m really on the ball about that given her beak and throat were so ghastly for the first few months.

thankfully now her mouth and throat is perfect and pink inside. She had spartrix and aciclovir for several weeks to combat the pox and canker and it worked wonders!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She also has a spot on her head next to her ear that if I tickle, she yawns REALLY wide and I can see right into her mouth and throat! Apart from a little dried formula on the corner of her mouth once in a while she’s all good.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

she’s definitely gagging less today... but it seems to be the tube that induces it, not the food. I’ll take that as a good sign. I wonder if anyone else has experience with apigeon that was very sick and needed to be tube fed for months. I would love to hear they can learn to eat again!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's quite a big mouth for such a young baby.... Maybe you should try the peas again. They learn so quickly to eat the peas by themselves. Feed her a few in the morning, then tease her by holding the pea between your fingers in front of her. She might start pecking and just end up grabbing one and swallowing it. Then you can start leaving some peas with her and add some small seeds.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96394
> 
> she’s definitely gagging less today... but it seems to be the tube that induces it, not the food. I’ll take that as a good sign. I wonder if anyone else has experience with apigeon that was very sick and needed to be tube fed for months. I would love to hear they can learn to eat again!


 Oh look at her what a little sweetheart


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> That's quite a big mouth for such a young baby.... Maybe you should try the peas again. They learn so quickly to eat the peas by themselves. Feed her a few in the morning, then tease her by holding the pea between your fingers in front of her. She might start pecking and just end up grabbing one and swallowing it. Then you can start leaving some peas with her and add some small seeds.


She can’t even pick a tiny weeny seed up, let alone a pea! She’s also ZERO percent interested in them... even when I’m fussing with them and trying to get her interested. She will peck at seeds but only when she’s sassy, she doesn’t seem to understand it. I’m just gonna be patient. When I hold the food in my fingers (seeds or peas) she ignores them 100%. She’ll often turn her head or her body! In the morning I try really hard to get her to peck at seeds as I assume she’ll be hungry but she is never hungry, noticeably! She just sleeps or preens! 

I have her two sunflower hearts today in her beak (forceably, she’s not consenting at all) and after 20 seconds or so she gagged until she got them up. She’s just not tolerating anything solid at all... i can’t quite figure it out!

Is there a way to add videos on here? Because I’m happy to record it. I feel like it’s probably hard for others to know how persistent I am! I hand fed two fledglings last summer and they got it almost immediately. Xena has yet to master it! But her mouth was so impacted by the pox so I think she just needs a little more time and help! I’m open to trying anything that might help her if you have any other ideas about encouraging her?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Just an example of how uninterested she is in food. So it’s about time to feed her (she should be hungry it’s been about 5.5 hours and her crop is empty).... i sprinkled a small thimble full of seeds by the book on the towel, and she just stood on top of them, snuggled next to the book listening to Led Zepellin 😂 she then lost interest and went up to a higher spot so I put some seeds on the white flannel - she just stepped right over them as if they were invisible. By the way, she can definitely see them! She pecks at them when she wants to, and doesn’t have trouble focusing in and pecking them/chattering them in her beak. I just think she doesn’t care about food for some reason.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96398
> View attachment 96399
> 
> Just an example of how uninterested she is in food. So it’s about time to feed her (she should be hungry it’s been about 5.5 hours and her crop is empty).... i sprinkled a small thimble full of seeds by the book on the towel, and she just stood on top of them, snuggled next to the book listening to Led Zepellin 😂 she then lost interest and went up to a higher spot so I put some seeds on the white flannel - she just stepped right over them as if they were invisible. By the way, she can definitely see them! She pecks at them when she wants to, and doesn’t have trouble focusing in and pecking them/chattering them in her beak. I just think she doesn’t care about food for some reason.


 Are you still tube feeding her maybe she's getting adequate nourishment from what you're feeding her by tube maybe that's satisfying her appetite just a thought.might be worth trying reducing what your feeding her by tube to see if it'stimulates her appetite and encourages her to start feeding on her own .


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Yup she’s tube fed, but like I mentioned... even after the night she’s not interested in food, that might be as long as 8-10 hours since her last feed. I’m reluctant to feed her less at the moment while she’s recovering from everything, she only has 20ml at each feed - she was getting the same as that plus peas and seeds until the gagging started, so her nutrition has already been reduced significantly?


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Is she on Nystatin or an antifungal?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

For a youngster it's usually easier to pick up a pea than a seed, it's not about the size. I feed peas to every youngster 3 weeks and older. Once they recognize peas as food, usually within a day or 2 they eat the peas by themselves. Her situation is a bit different, her mouth might still be sore after the pox.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Is she on Nystatin or an antifungal?


She’s on Nystatin, getting meds here in Italy is an absolute nightmare so I’m very limited in choice.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> For a youngster it's usually easier to pick up a pea than a seed, it's not about the size. I feed peas to every youngster 3 weeks and older. Once they recognize peas as food, usually within a day or 2 they eat the peas by themselves. Her situation is a bit different, her mouth might still be sore after the pox.


I wish there was a way to teleport all you guys here to consult in person! 😂

I was hand feeding her peas for several weeks until the gagging began.. in the early days there was no way to feed her peas as they were just too big (the lesions in her beak obstructed the mouth so much that I could only use a really tiny tube to feed her).

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head because she definitely doesn’t recognize anything as food. Yesterday I spent almost an hour playing with seeds and peas with her, after I posted those pics. She was able to lift up and grab everything, including dried corn. She just refuses to swallow anything. She will pick it up and chatter it, then drop it. When interested she’ll do this over and over, but won’t swallow them or move them back in her beak to consider swallowing them.

I don’t think her mouth is sore at all, it looks beautiful! Even the most recent little hole has healed! And when she’s playing with me and using her beak to grab my finger or the edge of the towel she doesn’t seem put off by it?

I have all the time in the world, tons of patience, happy to try anything if it might make a difference to her! I did hourly PT when she wasn’t able to use her legs so if there’s anything I can be doing? I’ll give it a go!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

So her last feed was about midnight. This morning she got Nystatin at 8:20am (when she woke up). She didn’t gag when I gave it to her but she didn’t much appreciate the tube. At 9am I tried to interest her in seeds and peas and some chopped up rocket.... no interest whatsoever. I put a pea in her beak, she flicked her head and threw it out, same with a seed. So I put another pea and sunflower heart at the back of her beak and she swallowed both. Within 20 seconds she was gagging, she continued until she brought both up. A minute or so after that I gave her formula (20ml) and she’s been gagging ever since. With the formula she doesn’t actually expel it from her mouth but I see it hits the back of her throat. (Because her beak was so deformed initially even when it’s closed now O can see inside her beak/tongue/throat now due to the small gap). So I can see the formula visibly after she brings it up her esophagus from the crop.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I thought I would give more information to help you guys think about what could be ailing little Xena.
She has good levels of activity and energy, and is active and alert. She rests/naps in the day on and off. Prefers to be perched on the edge of her brick or nest but sometimes snuggles up in the corner of her areas. Her droppings are pretty much the same as they have been since she kicked the salmonella. Typically the dropping is semi solid and the color of her formula, with visible urate and urine. (When she was eating seeds and peas it was darker and more solid). I have used a microscope to look for worms or eggs and none are visible. There is nothing malodorous about her droppings and they are uniform throughout the day and regular.

Her cage and perching spots are all super clean, I use wash cloths that are changed as soon as they are soiled and washed at high temperature. I have an antiviral/antibacterial spray to clean her cage and bowls and perches etc once or twice a day.

The house is warm, usually between 22-27 c, and she has access to a hot water bottle which she will snuggle up on when she feels like it.

she isn’t flying around a lot, but she can get a few meters unaided now and will do this a few times a day.

Her tail feathers all snapped when she was poorly and couldn’t use her legs, but there’s lots of new growth.

of her feet is slightly wonky, and she stands on the edge of it rather than flat. She can put weight on it and does a one legged stretch with the other foot outstretched behind her several times a each day.

She preens often and has lots of new feather growth.

I think that’s everything!
My vet is pigeon friendly but it’s very tricky to get any testing done because it’s not legal to give wild pigeons care or medical treatment. The fine is €200k so he’s very cautious obviously. 
I’ve looked up so many different illnesses and diseases that cause vomiting in pigeons and none of the symptoms seem to match. Today is day 6 of the nystatin and I don’t notice a change at all except perhaps slightly reduced gagging, but that also corresponds to omitting the seeds and peas. 
i hope all this helps with brain storming! 🥰


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I was just going to suggest taking her to an avian vet to have her checked for canker and yeast. Canker does not always show up in the throat and beak, it can be located deeper and not be visible. Is she drinking water by herself? Can you post a photo of her droppings?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She was on spartrix for a very long time for the large masses in her mouth and on her tongue... do you think she could have got it again after I stopped the meds? And would the Nystatin not have treated yeast? It’s day 6 now.
I’ll post a pic of her droppings now, she’s been perched on her nest for a few hours sleeping.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

you can’t tell because the washcloth has absorbed it, but there is visible urine and urates when they are freshly expelled from her body.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> I was just going to suggest taking her to an avian vet to have her checked for canker and yeast. Canker does not always show up in the throat and beak, it can be located deeper and not be visible. Is she drinking water by herself? Can you post a photo of her droppings?


sorry I didn’t answer any of your questions.
It’s not possible to go to an avian vet, as pigeons are not legal to treat here in Italy and the fine is HUGE. I go to someone who sees her, but he’s taking a huge risk... I’ve actual emailed a few pigeon specific avian vets around the world to ask for a video consult but no luck yet. 

She hasn’t drank water for more than a month. She has never been interested in water either. I would say since September 16th she’s accessed water with my encouragement less than 10 times, and I offer her water every day, about 10-15 times.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Weaning can be tricky even in a healthy pigeon. I had one I raised that took hours to encourage by tapping at seeds with my fingertip just to eat a single seed. It took a few good hours to have him eat onky a few. But by the next day, he was hungry enough to finally figure it out. I woke up to the sound of him eagerly pecking away and eating 

Usually, it is a transitional period where crop feeding by the parents includes less and less of their crop milk and contains more intact seeds. Once fledged they will sometimes get fed by parents at first and then are encourged by mimicing their parents to pick at and identify seeds as food. Pigeons are very selective and choosy in general and may not recognize one type of seed as a safe food at first. It can be a hurculean feat to get them used to a new type of food, but hunger and lack of options will motivate them to try new foods.

I wish I could teleport, hahah. That would help a lot!

Some places may either consider pigeons a nuisance pest or mistakingly consider them wildlife. They are ferals, and have been domesticated ages ago. Sometimes vets will treat them if they are a bona fide pet, but finding the right pigeon-friendly vet is the challenge.

Glad she is on nystatin, this should help if she does not have canker or some other parasitic or other pathogenic issues. I am amazed you said you used a microscope to examine her feces as most people either do not have a lab grade microscope or the right type of chambered slides or the supplies needed to do a test tube floatation. The procedure is actually relatively straight forward and easy compared to some staining protocols. Did you prepare a high specific gravity solution as well for a floatation test? Some will use a zinc sulfate solution while looking for coccidia oocysts. A saturated salt and sugar solution with an optional buffer is best for quick worm tests. And sometimes many slides will have to be made and fully examined in order to see a few oocysts depending on the parasite species, season, and parasite load in the GI tract. It can be tedious searching, but patience is key.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Her droppings actually look rather good. Nothing too obvious at all at first looks. Young pigeon droppings may be a bit more loose than older pigeons, but this is to be expected.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Marina B is right concerning canker. It can exist deeper in the GI tract and sometimes can be found in other organs. Perhaps an antiprotozal medication will help.

Antiprotozoal nitroimidazole-class drugs like metronidazole, carnidazole (Spartix), ronidazole, clazuril, or diclazuril are commonly used. Many work on trich/canker. Ronidazole treats trich and giralda but may work on most coccidia species as well. Toltrazuril (Baycox) works well on coccidia. Coccidia oocysts are smaller than worm egg casts but can be seen using a fecal floatation like I mentioned with a plain sugar and or sugar/zinc sulfate solution to preserve the oocyst shape and integrity prior to examination. Best to use both solutions at the same time depending on species. Trichonomas can also be seen under high magnification.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Her droppings actually look rather good. Nothing too obvious at all at first looks. Young pigeon droppings may be a bit more loose than older pigeons, but this is to be expected.


I wish I had a lab grade microscope! Mine is only 120x although I felt it was good enough to see worms or eggs which is what I was looking for at the time (back then her droppings were very bubbly because of the salmonella, so I wanted to figure out what was going on. If she had or does develop symptoms which need testing we can potentially use a local lab via the vet, and just use a general “bird droppings” tag on the paperwork and blame it on my English and hope that they just run the test and dont ask what bird it is! My vet was telling me that it’s perfectly legal to kill a wild pigeon here, but if you give it medical attention it’s illegal! (Ridiculous in my opinion but hey, pigeons are very misunderstood). 

Where abouts are you in the USA? I was in Las Vegas for 4 years and Idaho for 5!

If time is all that’s needed to encourage her? I’m down for that for sure! I’m not entirely aware of her age, I was thinking something like 3-4 months? At what point would you consider reducing the formula? If she wasn’t gagging and vomiting I would be so happy! I hope that if she eats a seed or two herself she won’t wanna bring it up! I’m reluctant to reduce the formula as I aforementioned, before she’s figured out food. What do you think? I just want her to be healthy first! 

She’s been on the Nystatin for 6 days today, should I keep going for 10? I think I read persistent cases might need a little longer. 

Talking of medicine, what test is done for yeast, canker or anything else that might be causing a lack of appetite or interest in food and water? 

Ever since I’ve had her, she’s had pox on her eyes and beak and she was blind and incapacitated in her mouth for 4-6 weeks so I wonder if she just doesn’t know what food is! My other rescue has PMV so is in bathroom quarantine! 😂 i don’t want Xena to have to manage that too!

Yes let’s just start teleporting! Great idea...!! If you come at tea time we’ll cook dinner too before you head off home! 🤣


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I would love to teleport! Thank you for the dinner offer 

Unfortunately, 120x may work only to see larger intact worms or roundworm/ascarid egg casts. Smaller nematodes and capillary worms' egg cysts are quite small and can be seen at around 400-600x mag. Trich and other protozoans require greater like 1000-1200x. Especially true with bacterium at 1200-2000x with oil immersion and needed staining kits.

I wish I could teleport my microscope with all my chemicals, slides and stains!

Yeast can be seen with iodine stain with a fecal smear, but usually need 1200x magnification as they can be quite small but not as small as bacteria. Perhaps a few yeast culture dishes can be made to tell. Yeasts are normally found in the GI tract (especially lower GI) but in low levels. A crop swab is best to take or visual examination looking into the mouth.

Yeah that is messed up. Killing them is legal, but treating them isn't? They must think of pigeons as pests like mosquitos  Makes me angry actually... as it is better to understand, treat and heal, than to kill, period. They are like feral cats, escaped domestic animals..

Perhaps if you post a few new pictures of her I may be able to tell her age better. Also perhaps a weight will help as well.

It may take a gradual process of less formula and more solids mixed into the formula to ween her over before a completely solid diet. She may have internal inflammation or damage in her crop, proventriculus, or even her gizzard which may make digesting solid food hard or impossible. Hopefully in time this will get better.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I have lived all over the US.

I have lived in Minnesota, Ohio, Texas, California, Florida, and Arkansas.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Here's a great microscope for a few hundred dollars that is very nice:








40X-2000X Medical Lab Vet Compound Biological Microscope


40X to 2000X magnification range for studying a range of specimens including hair follicles, cells, and bacteria. 10X and 20X eyepieces provide 8 unique magnification settings.A top choice for veterinarians, clinics, and classrooms, this microscope provides high quality optics and precision...




www.amscope.com





Plus there is a 15% off black friday coupon code (BF15) as well!

But it doesn't come with any slides, immersion oil, or stains - but the price is awesome for the magnification and quality!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Yes, I would keep her on Nystatin for 10d. It may be best in her case after antibiotucs and digestion issues.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Can't you rather invite your vet for dinner....lol.....and ask him to bring all his equipment with. Trich don't survive for a long time when outside of the body, so one will need to take the pigeon for a cropsmear and not the droppings 

I've heard about stubborn canker that requires two different meds to get rid off. Hopefully it's not that, she might just need time to learn how to eat.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

So... this morning as usual she started to gag when I gave her formula, except she actually succeeded in vomiting (usually she swallows when it reaches the back of her throat). On investigating the formula, it contained several sunflower hearts. She hasn’t had access to them for definitely 18-24 hours so she’s obviously not digesting seeds for some reason. (But formula is emptying from her crop and digesting, as per her plentiful droppings).

about 40 mins later she vomited again and there was a tiny little feather in her food. (Attaching a pic). 

There is no sour smell in her crop, no bubbles in her poop. So can only assume somethings going on to either prevent the seeds going into the stomach, or being digested? 

Either way I’ve been chatting with my rehab pal in the UK and I’m going to follow the advice of Colin Walker who recommends fennel tea to aid in this issue, and avoid all formula and seed for 24 hours to try to clear her system. She’ll probably be delighted! I’ve just given her some warm water (2.5 ml) and she immediately snuggled up and dropped her wings and went to sleep. Happy girl.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

please excuse the formula all over her cage... it’s usually spotless but with all the puking and head flicking she managed to redecorate! I don’t wanna disturb her now she’s finally not puking!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I would maybe give her a few days on the pure formula before trying anything so she can build up more strength. Going a whole 24 hours without any food will be hard on her. And she may just have an intolerance of solids.

Fennel tea anecdotally increases the rate of crop emptying and helps prevent gut stasis (failure of the bowel to contract and advance contents normally). This is why Dr. Walker uses the tea treatment.

She has normal droppings and she is digesting formula. As long as she is completely emptying her crop between feedings, this treatment my be unneccessary. She is passing food and obvioulsy digesting. To me this would indicate normal crop function and contraction of the intestines without any stasis or impaction.

The issue may be she is only sensitive to solid pieces that her system may reject as foreign and thus she vomits out the solids. It could be she has to eventually get accustomed to proper digestion, or she is still immature and not ready to be weaned, or there is an issue with an inflamed or sensitive crop, dilated or constricted proventuculus, or that her gizzard is unable to grind solids. This could be from inflamation, injury or deformation if there is indeed a physical impairment.

The tea may help, but since she is passing formula it may not be of benefit. It could flush her system out and any potential blockage, and this may help. If she is emptying her crop quickly enough and digesting that may not be an issue.

I guess I am worried about her going a 24-hour period without eating anything and the fact she is still in recovery that it may be rough on her.

How much does she weigh? I would like a picture of her head and feet so I may see her feather development around her beak, her iris color, and feet color to better guage her age. Also with youngsters, there often is a small white tip on the end of the beak which typically goes away once they fledge.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Marina B said:


> Can't you rather invite your vet for dinner....lol.....and ask him to bring all his equipment with. Trich don't survive for a long time when outside of the body, so one will need to take the pigeon for a cropsmear and not the droppings
> 
> I've heard about stubborn canker that requires two different meds to get rid off. Hopefully it's not that, she might just need time to learn how to eat.


Lol, he should, eh?

I agree, trich does not survive long outside nor form durable oocysts like worm egg castings. Samples are taken from the crop. They pass through saliva contamination (in water) and by crop feeding. Some trich become resistant to metronidazole or even other similar drugs when administered at low doses incorrectly. Most people rotate treatments or use a combo treatment. Oral tablets are preferrred to prevent drug resistance.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> I would maybe give her a few days on the pure formula before trying anything so she can build up more strength. Going a whole 24 hours without any food will be hard on her. And she may just have an intolerance of solids.
> 
> Fennel tea anecdotally increases the rate of crop emptying and helps prevent gut stasis (failure of the bowel to contract and advance contents normally). This is why Dr. Walker uses the tea treatment.
> 
> ...


I guess we established that she can’t be completely emptying her crop between feedings, because she didn’t have access to the seeds since earlier in the day. She had 2 or maybe 3 formula feedings between, and a full evening (midnight to 9am) without food, which means the seeds were in her crop (or stomach?) fully undigested for 16-24 hours at a minimum. I don’t think she had access to sunflower hearts yesterday, so it’s more likely to have been 48 hours since she consumed them. 

I’ll weigh her and take some pics for you, she’s napping now so I’m gonna jump in the shower while I wait, she’s been gagging/vomiting since 9am (5 hours now) so I haven’t had a chance to sort myself out and I don’t like to disturb her restful sleep! 🥰


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Okay, Jon and Marina here are some pics! Let me know if you need different angles or more specific.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

This is her most recent poo - she’s only had warm water in the last 3 hours though, and think she probably vomited almost all of the morning formula up. I did just find a few more undigested seeds in the formula puke in her cage as I cleaned it. I think she’s been on formula only for 7 days today, in that time she’s managed a few peas earlier in the week and maybe 7 seeds total from what I’ve read back and gleamed from my messages on here and with my friend in the UK.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Can't you rather invite your vet for dinner....lol.....and ask him to bring all his equipment with. Trich don't survive for a long time when outside of the body, so one will need to take the pigeon for a cropsmear and not the droppings
> 
> I've heard about stubborn canker that requires two different meds to get rid off. Hopefully it's not that, she might just need time to learn how to eat.


sorry I didn’t see this Marina. I don’t get alerts with every message and sometimes I miss one!
She can’t get a crop smear unless it’s something the vet can do, as he’s doing it on the down low for me. He’s definitely not an avian specialist, but I’ll ask him. What does a crop smear involve and will he be able to analyze results or is that something a lab would do? He’s the nicest vet ever, he treats every animals that’s brought to him! But our region is in lockdown so everything is quite strict at the moment.

the only symptom that Xena is showing, is the gagging - and of course the seeds in her vomit today. I wishI could run all these tests easily and she could get vet care legally.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've never had a crop smear done to test for canker (our closest avian vet is in Cape Town, that's 4 hours drive away). But from what I've read, a sample gets taken from the crop and then checked by the vet under a microscope. So you will get results immediately. Maybe you can just phone him and ask if he has done this before.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> I've never had a crop smear done to test for canker (our closest avian vet is in Cape Town, that's 4 hours drive away). But from what I've read, a sample gets taken from the crop and then checked by the vet under a microscope. So you will get results immediately. Maybe you can just phone him and ask if he has done this before.


I’ve left a message so i should hear back from him tomorrow! 🥰


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Well after a day of fennel tea, Xena finally stopped vomiting at about 7pm. She got a few more seeds and another small feather up the final time she vomited up the tea.
Her most recent poop is now green and bubbly but she is in great spirits and even flew across two rooms for the first time! She’s preening and hanging out with me and the dogs.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I was also looking at her pictures today and blimey.... I can’t believe how amazing she is. She’s such a fighter! Whatever this hurdle is? She’ll jump it!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Her progress is simply amazing!!

I just realized by her plumage she appears to be a immature common wood pigeon (_Columbia palumbus_), haha.

You can tell by the white edge and dark feathers on the alula/winglets ("thumb" feathers at the distal carpals), by the even spread of color on the body plumage, the lack of bars on wing coverts, and the lack of a demarkation between her neck and chest feathers. But they are quite similar in physiology to _Columbia livia_. In Italy, wood pigeons are considered a migratory game species.

I am glad she has rid herself of another indigested feather. I hope this helps alleviate her issues. The fact she is alert, preening herself, AND flying is a very good sign she is feeling better and recovering quite nicely. Kudos!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Also, immature wood pigeons eye color is more of a gray color and not dark brown like what is common with feral rock dove pigeons.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Unlike feral pigeons, a wood pigeon’s diet consists mostly of vegetables and leaves. They particularly love clover leaves, cabbages, peas, sprouts, fresh shoots, nuts, and some grains. In the winter months they may eat ivy berries, haws and acorns.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Perhaps she just needs a purée of fresh greens like clover added into the formula for now with some mashed up peas mixed in, and no solid seeds until she matures, and use more greens over time and less and less of a purée consistency for her to adjust. Please avoid using iceberg lettuce as it is quite nutritionally devoid and can cause _E. coli_ overgrowth, and definately no avocados as they are toxic to birds. The diet may explain her issues.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hiya Jon! I’ve known since she was little that she was a wood pigeon, sorry I didn’t make that clearer! If you read back I’ve mentioned it a few times (most recently when discussing her weight with Spencer)!

Just to confirm her diet has always been 90%-95% formula - just for the last month or so she’s been managing peas and seeds and rocket/arugula as a way to get her used to solid food. I’m not sure what happened in that time frame but hope that it was maybe just the feathers causing a blockage? The vomit wasn’t bad smelling or foul, so I am cautiously optimistic.
I’m going to start her this morning with a small amount of watery formula and hope the gagging doesn’t resume. Fingers crossed! It’s only 4:30am but she just woke up - dozing on my chest at the moment as I slept on the couch to keep a close eye on her. (My poor husband and dogs abandoned!).

Thank you for all the suggestions I’ll keep those in mind when she’s finally weaned and eating Without trouble! (I hope sooner rather than later but I don’t have a job or kids so I have all the time she needs for me to be patient with her progress!)

she Really has made such incredible progress..... she was sassy even at the height of the pox. I have videos of her literally pulling huge pox clusters out of her wings! She removed almost all of the pox before they died off naturally, she was impatient from the beginning and decided she wasn’t gonna succumb!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Side note: She’s a little in love with my boy, Nemo. (Elderly staffordshire bull terrier) He has learnt that if he’s too close she’ll nibble his face so he’s always looking away, but they are very sweet together and like to hang out! She actually flew across the two rooms (the furthest she’s flown to date) and landed next to him, after he left the couch to lay on the rug. Apparently she didn’t want him to be away from her! He’s been very sweet to her since the day she arrived, and when the vet suggested that she’s unreleasable I allowed him to be closer to her and they have been inseparable ever since... They have a very sweet connection now!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

That is so sweet of them being friends  Thanks for the pictures! Every life saved means everything.

You're welcome. I was thinking of her diet and thought it may explain some of her issues. A few feathers could be a problem. Be a bit careful with watery formula. It can cause aspiration pneumonia. Would be best to make small balls of a semi-soft dough-like firmness and then offer water in a small jar after feeding.

Sounds like she has a perfect home! Pigeons do well with day long attention, love and care.

Sorry, I didn't know as joined in the discussion late. I was like, wow, she is a wood pigeon and had assumed she was a feral pigeon all this time lol.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> That is so sweet of them being friends  Thanks for the pictures! Every life saved means everything.
> 
> You're welcome. I was thinking of her diet and thought it may explain some of her issues. A few feathers could be a problem. Be a bit careful with watery formula. It can cause aspiration pneumonia. Would be best to make small balls of a semi-soft dough-like firmness and then offer water in a small jar after feeding.
> 
> ...


no worries! I actually didn’t know there were different types of pigeons I just thought they came in different colors! (I had two last year, sweet pea and squib, both ferals, I’ll attach pics) they were different colors and their flock was so varied I just assumed pigeons all looked different! I’ve learned a lot since September and I was really excited when her little pink chest feathers came in this month and she started to look like a woodie! 

She won’t drink independently sadly, but she managed tea all day yesterday without aspirating, (I administered as she won’t drink alone). As she hasn’t had any food for 24 hours and has never had formula dough balls Im nervous about something solid starting the gagging again... (as she’s so used to bringing up anything solid) I’ll be with her all day so can monitor her closely and will give in small amounts, but I’m going to hold off on introducing solids until the gagging has stopped entirely. It’s been 12 hours and no gagging so I’m pretty happy! She’s still very alert and preening this morning so I’m hoping that the 24 hours has helped her flush out the system and she’s ready for formula again! 

Italy is a strange place for military families because dependents are not allowed to work on the economy, so we have all the time in the world! This year especially has been perfect for pigeon rehabbing because of lockdown - northern Italy has been very hard hit with corona, (can’t say I’m unhappy with being forced to stay home with the animals).

I’ll keep everyone posted on how things are today, and hopefully I hear back from the vet regarding the tests. I have been looking at microscopes, I’m very tempted! 😂 I’ve never looked at poo so much in my life since having her.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> That is so sweet of them being friends  Thanks for the pictures! Every life saved means everything.
> 
> You're welcome. I was thinking of her diet and thought it may explain some of her issues. A few feathers could be a problem. Be a bit careful with watery formula. It can cause aspiration pneumonia. Would be best to make small balls of a semi-soft dough-like firmness and then offer water in a small jar after feeding.
> 
> ...











This is sweet pea - successfully released in the garden (we lived in the countryside) and she stayed with the flock so I saw her regularly!









this is squib... she had such beautiful feathers! She took 2 attempts to release. The first day she just kept coming back to me, but I think she had good intuition because that night was an almighty storm and some flooding! Two days later I took her out by the rive and she just took to the garden and after a little while of surveying her kingdom, she was gone too! The first few days she would soar around the house, sooooooo high and such an amazing flyer! She began to roost with the flock a few days later and would often fly down into the garden when I was out there.

sweet pea and squib were SO easy, i didn’t give them any medicine or health support at all,just kept them warm and fed while they learnt how to fly. After a few weeks they were ready! Such perfect training for me, confident to look after Xena when she arrived!

I think most of my friends think I’m insane! The crazy pigeon lady! 😂 🐦


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Hahaha, I never looked as closely at bird droppings at all until having and treating them. I know what you mean! I even now take note of random droppings outside and think about how healthy or unhealthy they appear, lol

I actually own a Amscope microscope like the one I showed you. I was shocked the price was that low for a lab-grade model. They usually start off in the thousand dollar range and were that expensive for most of my life, until I came across mine years ago.

I have wondered with so many people in lockdown, where do the feral pigeons get food when most are shut in? Fortunately for the pigeons here in Arkansas, the people are living life as usual. Yes, Northern Italy was hit so badly this spring  I heard Southern Italy is having a hard time now 

That is crazy not letting military dependants work while living abroad. Makes no sense unless they have some law about foreign workers or taxing only their citizens. I guess I don't know too much about Italy. But from what you tell me, it definately is odd with their laws and restrictions.

I rather stay home with my animals anyday. To me that is a vacation, and I do that more than not  Especially now with corona, it is the perfect excuse and best way to stay safe. I am more happy with my rescues than working and dealing with stress. All those stressed out folks who are depressed because of lockdowns and quarantines need pets to love!

Please do keep us posted. I am hopeful all is well as she is a lil' trooper and a born fighter!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

They look amazing. And definately are the feral domestic pigeon. Pigeons are generaly very smart and intuitive, sturdy, and they adapt and recover better than most birds. Thank you for sharing 

I get that all the time, and have been called "the pigeon guy" where I live. Sometimes people have said, "your pigeons," like I own all the free-flying ferals in town, hahaha.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Hahaha, I never looked as closely at bird droppings at all until having and treating them. I know what you mean! I even now take note of random droppings outside and think about how healthy or unhealthy they appear, lol
> 
> I actually own a Amscope microscope like the one I showed you. I was shocked the price was that low for a lab-grade model. They usually start off in the thousand dollar range and were that expensive for most of my life, until I came across mine years ago.
> 
> ...


Well Xena had her formula and apart from a little gagging when the tube was actually administering nothing yet!!! This is the first time in more than a week that she hasn’t gagged, So my best guess is that she had a few feathers in her crop and every time I gave her formula it dislodged them and irritated her and she wanted them up! I’m keeping my fingers crossed she’ll be fine today. It’s been 11 minutes and not a single gag or burp/yawn so maybe we can be optimistic!

oh and Jon, Marina, (and everyone who reads this) feel free to share pics of your rescues too! I love to see them! How many do you have? And what were/are their ailments?

We are back in lockdown here in Northern Italy since a few weeks ago, so I can dedicate fully to Xena and CherAmi and the dogs!
This Air Base is a US/Italy joint base, and I think back when the rules were implemented about us not working on the economy, it was just to make sure that the huge influx of Americans didn’t steal the few jobs in this small market region. These days it makes no sense, it feels dated given that we can’t even have online businesses which wouldn’t affect the local economy.... but I can’t complain. The Air Force looks after us and it meant I had to slow down and gave me a chance to connect with pigeons I might never have noticed without the luxury of all the free time!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She’s had two feeds so far and zero gagging! She’s preening as I type, droppings have gone from the starvation green to normal color, she seems fine! Woohoo


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That sounds good! Maybe from tomorrow you can try the defrosted peas again.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> That sounds good! Maybe from tomorrow you can try the defrosted peas again.


no gagging at all today! Woohoo! 
to be honest, I’m gonna give her a few days to get used to formula without gagging... i need to reintroduce the vitamins and probiotics etc as i stopped them a few days ago, I want to add them one at a time to make sure they aren’t causing an issue with gagging.
(I’m pretty sure that’s not what it was, but the gagging started the same kinda time I introduced new supplements so I want to be sure).
I don’t think a few days will make much of a difference with the peas, do you? I’d like her to be getting more nutrition from solid food but more importantly I want her to be able to keep food down!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

That"s Amazing to hear!!! If it was me, I would give it a few days with the formula before slowly introducing mashed clover leaves and then a little mashed peas. They love and thrive on clover leaves, in addition to other wild greens, but they eat clover like little cows in the wild.

(Sorry power is out due to bad storms and a small tornado that hit several miles away.. I have low battery and was wanting to post pics of my rescues, but that will have to wait until tomorrow.)


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Clover isn't readily available in my garden and we are in lockdown so can't go foraging. wonder if its something I could get seeds for and grow at home. I was told that arugula (rocket) was loved by woodies so maybe ill see if she's interested in that. I like the idea of making little formula balls with peas and greens, so its still all soft but mimics solids! 

But I am going to avoid anything besides formula for a few days, it's such a relief to have her eating without gagging! She's a happy little girl, wandering around the living room and snuggling up in her various cages! 

Can't wait to see your pigeons!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

John_D said:


> We give our pigeons a 'round' lettuce and/or nice crispy Romaine Hearts, and they will demolish them in no time. Never noticed any ill effects. We give our European Wood Pigeons a mix of well chopped leaves like rocket, spinach, watercress and chard daily. Their natural diet includes a lot of leaf, so they really go for that. It was a little of a surprise to me, though, that our other pigeons also seem to enjoy dark leaf greens.
> 
> John


Yes, you can order red clover seed and grow it for Xena. She will love it  I am so glad she is eating her formula without issues. That is most reassuring that she is definately well on the road to recovery.

(I will post later tonight as I have a busy schedule today)


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Over the last few decades I have rescued many wild animals and wild species of birds. But over the last 4 years or so, the rescues I kept were all domesticated animals.

My white African Collared dove I found nearly three and a half years ago on a busy street in Southern California. She nearly got hit by a few cars by only an inch and did not have the stamina to fly against the strong Santa Ana winds to escape peril. I suspected she was a part of an illegal dove release ceremony. Reputable companies use white homing pigeons that will return after an release. No one reported her lost or missing and no one claimed her. She has asthma, but other than that she is perfectly healthy and happy here with me in Arkansas.










The first pigeon rescue occurred several months later. Milliken was nearly killed after a large great dane got a hold of him. When I arrived on the scene he was cold, in severe shock, bleeding out his nares with labored breathing, with saliva and blood on his feathers, unable to move. He lost all his secondary flight feathers on one wing and some of his tail feathers. He was apx. 28-days-old. He had a dislocated wing and a broken toe. A few days later, he developed a severe internal bacteria infection due to dog saliva contamination from his bleeding. He was treated with erythromycin and bactrim and he made a full recovery with no limitations or disability. It took a few months for his feathers to regrow and during that time his parents left the old nest site and area. He was my little buddy and I took him everywhere with me going to many places like stores, parks, drives, and even took him to work with me on a few occasions as he hated being left at home.










The next year, I found a tiny dutch dwarf rabbit that was wandering the streets at night. That neighborhood had many owls, cats and a few dogs, so I captured him once I realized he wasn't wild and just a few months old. He started licking me and cuddled up to me within minutes after capturing him  That is rather rare with most rabbits. No one reported him lost or claimed him either, and I was happy to finally know I would keep him. He became my Bunn.










I drove with my pigeon, dove and rabbit all inside a rental car when I moved back to Arkansas a year later.

About six months later, in November 2019, Milliken fell in love with a local feral and flew the coop. I was saddened and devastated, but I understood it was his time to fly free and he chose to leave. I still miss him and go to his flock and to his new home and feed him and his flock. I never loved a pigeon or pet before as much as I do him. That was probably the worse days of my life after he left.

A little over a month later, while I was visiting Milliken's new home I noticed a young silver dilute male struggling to climb/fly up the rock face of a building's wall. There was a hawk overhead and a black street cat coming towards him from down the alley he was at, so I intervened and rescued him. He was just weak and immature, the runt of the clutch of 2. His parents left him behind as I had him back on the roof to his family's roost and both parents ignored him and others tried to attack him. I climbed up on the roof and sat with him for some time and decided to take him home with me as I knew he was in need of care seeing he could not fly good and was abandoned. I named him Muligan. He can fly now but doesn't really like to for some odd reason. I know he can fly good now, but he is content hanging out with me more than not.










Last July, while I was checking on the local flock, I saw Milliken fly off and there was a young black T-check fledgling who was right next to him. Immediately, right after seeing them I noticed a falcon fly up and away from them as an angry mockingbird chased it away from off the ground. The little guy was limping away with a dangling wing when I approached and instantly knew he was hurt. I took him home and treated a bad compound fracture and by the time he regained his ability to fly, he had a slight lack of maneuvering skill but he sure loves to fly. He became close to me and decided to keep him as well seeing he may not be able to out-fly a falcon. I named Milliken's son, Menefee. Both Muligan and Menefee are my buds and love every bit of my attention. Since they are both males, I have to play referee to avoid any fights. My dove loves Menefee but loves cuddles from me. She will try to get his attention while on her nest and sometimes he will do a display dance to her and get her cooing and flickering her wings behind the bars of her cage 










My rabbit is still the affectionate, cuddly rabbit as ever, but just a bit bigger. He loves sprinting around and doing flips when he is excited when I take him out.

It is tricky spreading out my love to them all, but I do my daily best to give them all an even balance of my time. I usually am with them all throughout the whole day and they have their cages in my bedroom. They are my fluffy family  And unlike Milliken, I don't take them outside, nor do they want to. Milliken was a free spirit and always wanted to go outside. I guess, I fear they could fly off, or get lost, or get attacked by a raptor and I do not want to go through loosing another bird like Milliken. But they are homebodies, and never want to go outside any, which is good.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)




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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Jon how beautiful!!! What a lovely fluffy family you have!!! I loved reading the story of each and smiled the whole way through, (even when your gorgeous and beloved Milliken left you, as being wild and in love seems like such a beautiful way to lose a pigeon!)

Every evening when I’m snuggling with Xena I think about the years ahead and how much she is already a little part of our family and how that will grow! We previously lived in a huge house in the countryside but we had to move closer to my husbands work so sadly there aren’t so many pigeons around as it’s more of a city location, but I enjoy watching the robins and starlings in the garden and the odd pigeon every now and then.
Arent we lucky!

Xena hasn’t brought any food up since her 24 hour fast, although she did gag for about 5 seconds yesterday immediately after the formula which made me panic - but I think perhaps there was just some formula in her esophagus- perhaps I lifted the tube prematurely. Not sure but it was a one off so I’m hopeful theres no recurring problem.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Over the last few decades I have rescued many wild animals and wild species of birds. But over the last 4 years or so, the rescues I kept were all domesticated animals.
> 
> My white African Collared dove I found nearly three and a half years ago on a busy street in Southern California. She nearly got hit by a few cars by only an inch and did not have the stamina to fly against the strong Santa Ana winds to escape peril. I suspected she was a part of an illegal dove release ceremony. Reputable companies use white homing pigeons that will return after an release. No one reported her lost or missing and no one claimed her. She has asthma, but other than that she is perfectly healthy and happy here with me in Arkansas.
> 
> ...


Hi Jonrf I would just like to say how much I enjoyed reading about your rescues such beautiful creatures all of them but I'm curious to know are you Vet ?as you're so knowledgeable when it comes to meds I really think I need to be looking into this side of caring for my Pigeon a lot more.👍🏻🙂


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Here where I live, it is several miles away from the small town that is the county seat. It is all mixed forest and no pigeons for miles except a few people who have them. There are too many hawks, falcons, kites, and all kinds of eagles around the area as well. I basically live right next to the one of largest national forests in the US that spans nearly 2 million acres. The town has about 60 pigeons or so but it is hard to count as there are a few areas where they have large nesting colonies, so there could be more. It actually surprised me that there was that many for a small rural town of about 6K.

Having a pigeon really is wonderful. I never had a woodie, but I would assume they can be similar to the all-so-common rock dove, a.k.a. "the pigeon". After I lost Milliken, I had a pigeon-shaped hole in my heart that's for sure. I am fortunate to have these two guys. The dove is sweet, but she is not "in your face" and needy for attention like the boys are, haha.

Sounds terrific about Xena. I truly hope she has no more issues and is putting on good weight and getting stronger and stronger as she should. You may have to get her a pair of pigeon flight pants (to keep her messes in check)


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Spencer said:


> Hi Jonrf I would just like to say how much I enjoyed reading about your rescues such beautiful creatures all of them but I'm curious to know are you Vet ?as you're so knowledgeable when it comes to meds I really think I need to be looking into this side of caring for my Pigeon a lot more.👍🏻🙂


Hi!

Thanks, they are 

Not licensed as of yet, but slowly I am getting closer to taking the NAVLE. I have been taking remote classes and doing coursework. I have been a researcher for many years involved with medical research and before that was extensively involved in nanomaterials and chemistry. I am also part of the Human Diagnosis Project and contribute solving medical cases. I started working with rescues and rehab. about 10+ years ago and all the experience got me here to where I am.

I just kept staying interested, curious and ever learning. And then I started classes to help with my rescues and taking it to the next level.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Yup I have already been in touch with someone who makes pigeon pants! She said it would be best to wait for her to grow more, as she’s been steadily gaining weight and by the time they reach me it’s likely she won’t fit them! Also, she’s still got extremely wet poops so hopefully by the time it’s pigeon pant o clock, she’ll be enjoying more solid foods and her droppings firm up a little!
Today she actually vomitted the formula up / about 2ml is my guess. So the next feed I only gave her 10ml and the other 10 I made little formula dough balls as you recommended. So far so good, and she didn’t gag at all. I think it’s helpful they taste just like her food, my plan is to gradually add other stuff to them next week and transition her from dough balls to other stuff, very slowly!
In other news, one of her feet has been a little wonky since she had the acute salmonella and couldn’t stand - she has been walking on her ankle and her back claw/thumb bent under her front claws. Today I made a little soft splint from cardboard and some soft medical tape. She’s walking on it okay although she was a bit moody with me! I hope it helps. Anyone got a suggestion of how long it should be splinted for?


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

She may had too much food or she still is a bit sensitive. I hope she manages to keep her food down.

Thats a great idea to use a cardboard splint. I would say leave it on for a week, then remove it to see if her toes stay in a correct position and to allow her to flex her joints. If not, resplint it and wait another week. If the joints are unable to move for longer than a week, ankylosis may occur and make her joints immovable. You may want to carefully trim her toe claws, but be careful not to cut into the quick, of course. Her long claws will cause her toes to rotate as I can see in the front toe and can lead to deformity if left too long.

That is good that you are making her formula taste like greens. This will help immensely when you transition her to solids. Be sure to use only fresh greens to avoid E. coli etc.

Maybe the right probiotics will aid in her digestion. You can add a minute bit of probiotic powder (1/16-1/8 measuring teasoon a day for a few days). Any probiotic will do except ones that may contain enterococcus species (which may disrupt or kill normal bird gut enterococcus) or streptococcus faecdium/faecalis. The gut bacteria of herbavores usually also contain certain fragile species of cellulose-digesting bacteria, which may be difficult to replace, especially after use of empiric or systemic antibiotics. They really need to develop species-specific strains of probiotics for birds. Domestic pigeons have a unique species specific gut microbiota bacteria which they have in abundance called Enteroccus columbae, and is found no where else in other species.

Also, according to a field study conducted between 2017-2018 in Italy, 23% of collected wild wood pigeons had a low levels of small worms in their gut. They found mainly crestodes (16.3%), nematodes (14.4%) and the rest were Digenea ssp. (2.5%). These can cause minor problems like a degree of undernutrition or weight loss and other gastrointestinal disorders like inflammation, constriction, compaction or stasis in severe cases. Using dewormers may be hard on their systems (especially panacur). Moxidectin is safer, even safer than ivermectin with birds. Has a vet performed a fecal floatation on her to check for worm egg casts. I know you said you used your microscope, but I don't know if she was tested by a vet. I guess I will have to read up (again my fault for joining in on the thread late). It may be hard to find and may need a few tests to tell as nematode eggs are very small and few and far between, and I know I mentioned it before with you.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Time for Thanksgiving dinner! I hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving Day meal


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> She may had too much food or she still is a bit sensitive. I hope she manages to keep her food down.
> 
> Thats a great idea to use a cardboard splint. I would say leave it on for a week, then remove it to see if her toes stay in a correct position and to allow her to flex her joints. If not, resplint it and wait another week. If the joints are unable to move for longer than a week, ankylosis may occur and make her joints immovable. You may want to carefully trim her toe claws, but be careful not to cut into the quick, of course. Her long claws will cause her toes to rotate as I can see in the front toe and can lead to deformity if left too long.
> 
> ...


when Our region went into stricter lockdown, it made the testing quite difficult, prior to this the plan was to get any tests needed at a local lab... but that’s not possible now. (Everything is very strict here now and not sure if you saw previously but it’s illegal to give medical attention or care to a wild pigeon here, and the fine is €200k!) so for now, no tests are available.

her nails definitely need trimming, It’s very hard as she was vomiting every time we tried last week. She hates her feet being touched. I’ll definitely do them in a week when I take the splint off the first time - my husband needs to be with me and holding her, she wriggles the entire time even when wrapped/swaddled very well.

i just gave her some formula balls as we have a power cut and I couldn’t warm the water for formula. Strangely,no gagging Whatsoever! She’s a funny little bean. Lucky I can give my full attention to her! 

We are a vegan family so celebrate “thanksliving”, same to you! our day is over now and we’re all off to bed! X


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi Friends! @jonrf @Marina B wondered if I could ask a quick question, hope you don't mind. 

So, the gagging has returned with Xena, sometimes its with formula balls, sometimes with formula, sometimes she actually vomits and other times she doesn't. 

I think at this point I need to try and get some tests/vet care done, to ascertain what the actual issue might be. I have noticed that since she had the formula balls she is not pooping as much, so I wondered if she has some kind of blockage or her system is struggling to digest semi solid/solid food? 

I don't have access to the vet often, as I mentioned, so I want to try and persuade him to do a whole work up if it might help diagnose her issue. So my question is, what would you recommend? 

Ive read that fecal/dropping tests and analysis need to be done over 5 days, so I would have to start planning. Is there a specific scan or test outside of the slides that could help us figure out what's going on? I just want to make sure I cover all my bases..... the thing that's really perplexing me is that she's totally fine, behavior wise! She sleeps, preens, stretches, tries to fly, explores etc. she's curious and alert but also quite a snuggly sleepy girl. I know these are all good signs, but besides checking her mouth for canker (still nothing) I don't know if there's much else i can do, and I feel like the gagging must be a physical response rather than psychological? 

Any thoughts? I am going to try to get her to the vet tomorrow morning if he has space otherwise it will be later in the week.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

PS: There is no guarantee that I can get vet tests done, but I am at the point of begging or paying for a private lab if that's something he can identify for me, so I just wanted to see if either of you had any specific ideas as to what we could be looking at.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Can't give advice regarding the tests. Our closest avian vet is 4 hours away, so I've never had tests done. But I've noticed that when they get fed only formula balls, they need a lot of water. If you feed 50 % balls and 50% peas, then they almost drink no water. So if she is not getting enough water, the balls might not digest properly.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Can't give advice regarding the tests. Our closest avian vet is 4 hours away, so I've never had tests done. But I've noticed that when they get fed only formula balls, they need a lot of water. If you feed 50 % balls and 50% peas, then they almost drink no water. So if she is not getting enough water, the balls might not digest properly.


she’s still having fennel tea so plenty of water, probably more than when she was having the formula as liquid. I’m so perplexed!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I was going to suggest using a few drops of pure fennel seed oil mixed into the formula. Fennel oil is antihelmintic, it slows worms' digestion and stops their egg production. Also it an anti-inflammatory which should help any possible inflammation in the GI tract. It is also an antispasmotic which relaxes muscles in the GI tract to help pass food. It is an antifungal and has potent action against _Candida albicans. _It has antibacterial properties against _E. coli _and _Salmonella ssp._ Fennel seed extract is a good antioxidant as well.

Just make sure whatever Flannel seed oil you use is not in alcohol or extracted with hexane. Swanson and Nature's Answer brands have alcohol in them. PipingRock and PlantGuru brands are made with steam distillation and would be safe.

Another idea I had was to use some freeze dried garlic. It will be easy to crush into a fine powder if dry. After making a powder, then add a few drops of slightly warm (78-80°F) water to it and wait a few minutes before slowly adding more warm water drop by drop over several minutes to maximize the production of allicin out of the garlic. Allicin is best used within 45 minutes as it will readily oxidize and break down. You can refrigerate it to make it last a few hours at most.

Allicin is also antiparasitic, and kills worms, and it also is an antiinflammatory, but do not give more than about 200mg of garlic cloves' worth of allicin water a day as too much will cause irritation and inflammation in her GI tract.

I never send for tests but do them myself. The one thing I do is do a fecal float with fresh droppings right away to not allow any potential organisms to decompose as some will within minutes if not preserved. Also, not all perservants work for every organism. So multiple sample containers may be needed containing buffers, EDTA, formalin, or alcohol. Best to call a few labs and ask.

I would keep trying your vet, or reach a biologist or ornithologist at a University that may be interested either in pathology, veterinary medicine or wild bird species. I was really hoping she would keep her food down too


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I wish I could teleport with my microscope and help you solve this


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

When she has solid droppings, does the fecal portion look very thin or thicker like an 1/8th of an inch. Very thin may mean inflammation or swelling in her intestines. Too much inflammation or irritation (or infection or parasites) can cause diarrhea or excess mucus.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I’ll get some pictures of her droppings today, I haven’t taken any recently. I’m still waiting for the vet to call back so hopefully this week. I wondered if she could have a scan or X-ray to see what’s going on... if only this website was a teleporter! 🤣

Im making her formula a little thinner (it was like mashed potato consistency before the gagging started)so now it’s more like thick cream? I’m also using her swallowing to help with the feed, if I crop feed she almost always gags. If I use the syringe just after the hole in the tongue and let her natural urge to swallow assist me? She gags less or not at all. She was on 20ml previously but I’ve reduced to 15ml and a little more frequently, it seems to be helping with the gagging and she’s content between.
This morning she gagged but didn’t bring anything up, and it didn’t last long. After she eats she just melts herself into a little puddle in her basket, it’s adorable! She likes to relax her wings and rest her beak on her chest. 
oh and she managed to preen the splint off her foot 😂I reapplied it yesterday with a new design that might be a bit more comfortable for her, I actually think she has some kind of issue with the ankle, as that’s quite stiff and bent to the side a little. If she can have an X-ray I suppose that will be figured out, but if the splint comes off and her little feet continue to be a bit misshapen and she continues to balance on the edge of the foot I think she’ll be okay.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)




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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

It’s hard to get a pic before the liquid is absorbed, but it comes out with about equal parts liquid and solid. Today the urine and urates seemed to be blended. Almost milky? She’s not pooping much today actually, tiny little nuggets like this one or smaller. I weighed her and she’s about 5g more than last week so she’s not losing weight, which I guess is good?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Unrelated to the previous topic and questions but I have noticed that in the last few days her eye is looking much better, the fibrous strands that were on her eye have almost gone, the vet was right when he thought that the eye would regenerate. I’m pleased her good eye is going to perfect, as the other eye is permanently blind. And her sweet little grey feathers are coming on on her face which has been bald for so long!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

How is she doing now? Are you still giving vitamins and probiotics?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> How is she doing now? Are you still giving vitamins and probiotics?


Hi @Marina B ... thanks for checking in!
I got a new probiotic this week which I started yesterday, (without electrolytes) which seem to be going down okay. I actually had to stop all the supplements as it seemed to be exacerbating the gagging. I have ordered some different ones hopefully they will come before the weekend or early next week. She seems to be so delicate! I’ve got her feeding schedule adjusted to 15ml every 3 hours, she only actually vomits maybe twice a day? And it’s not a huge amount. I would say 1-2ml total.
Apart from the relentless gagging and vomiting, she’s trying to fly, preening, stretching, sleeping, snuggling with me. Oh and last night she made her first wood pigeon noise! (Coo coo co co cuu) which was a shock as she doesn’t really make any noise apart from the odd single tiny squeak once in a blue moon! She did it again today once, but not confidently and it seemed to confuse her! 😂


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Well, I just fed her 20ml (to see how she would manage after 2 days on 15ml) and she didn’t gag or vomit, it’s been 45 mins so fingers crossed! Maybe that probiotic did the trick. I did notice some little flecks on the side of her throat, which may or may not be debris from formula (I’m perhaps paranoid!) so I’ll check again in an hour or two once the gag timezone has passed - if she has canker again it would explain a lot!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Just after midnight here and off to bed... no gagging or vomiting after that last meal, for the first time in days and days. Hopeful! 
she also made another pigeon coo coo noise when I left the room,both times have been late at night so that’s when I have to keep my phone on to record the noise! 
she’s also graduated into a small dog crate on my dresser for the night to sleep in. She’s been in a little car carrier at night right next to my bed/pillow so I can watch for her being sick. After 3 months I think I can stop worrying about her enough for her to be 2 meters away! She snuggled/melted into the towel and is already fast asleep. They really are resilient little birds aren’t they!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She’s back on 20ml, and though she gags it’s definitely reducing, and she hasn’t vomited in more than 24 hours so I’m hopeful that the new probiotic might be helping? If that’s possible!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I am sorry that I have not been on lately. I have been busy and now fighting off a respitory infection  I hope it is not COVID, but have been taking antibiotics and have no other symptoms. I have COPD so am prone for infections of that sort.

The probiotics may help. The droppings look to be at a right diameter. I hope she doesn't have trich/canker as sometimes it will develop resistance and you may have to switch coccidiostat meds. Keep an eye on her throat and odor.

She is growing up  It usually takes a few months to start to vocalize. I know the first time my latest rescue made a coo, he looked shocked making a noise lol


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> I am sorry that I have not been on lately. I have been busy and now fighting off a respitory infection  I hope it is not COVID, but have been taking antibiotics and have no other symptoms. I have COPD so am prone for infections of that sort.
> 
> The probiotics may help. The droppings look to be at a right diameter. I hope she doesn't have trich/canker as sometimes it will develop resistance and you may have to switch coccidiostat meds. Keep an eye on her throat and odor.
> 
> She is growing up  It usually takes a few months to start to vocalize. I know the first time my latest rescue made a coo, he looked shocked making a noise lol


No worries Jon! Your health comes first... i hope you recover and heal! Do you have someone to take care of you? 

the probiotics haven’t seemed to sort things out, in fact today her droppings are milky with one or two bubbles.... I’ve asked my rehab pa but wondering if you might know what this might indicate? I check her mouth/throat daily, no smells or growths so far!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I’m wondering if she has salmonella again/still? The boils on her shoulder had almost done but today I notice one is quite yellow and large, and her legs look more swollen than usual and are hot to the touch!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

(Please excuse my fingers! I cleaned out the fireplace this evening and the soot stains my cuticles for a day or two!)

her poop just now is very bubbly, which is what happened just before she lost the use of her legs when the salmonella was bad.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

She may have a slamonella infection still, especially with new abcesses and her inflamation in her toes. Poor girl  She may need more antibiotics and a stronger one like TMP/SMZ (Bactrm).

I self-diagnosed myself with a Pseudomonas aeruginosa sinus infection and got a 10-day prescription of Keflex. I needed an aminoglycoside like gentamycin or neomycin, but the pharmacist did not have it in tablet form. After talking with him for over a half hour he suggested I find vet grade tablets, lol. He has fifty years of experience too! I ended up making a specially formulated nasal spray with some and it is working great. I am taking Claritin-D as well which is helping relieve the sinus congestion. With having emphysema/COPD and having had a NSTEMI heart attack/HFrEF/double pneunonia last April, I am extra cautious now with the coronavirus. I have been researching anything and everything that may help fight it off if I did contract it, and have been taking vitamin D and zinc and collecting drugs and organic compounds that I could take to prevent cytokine storms and inhibit viral RNA replication and synthesis like montelukast, inhaled corticosteroids, glycyrrhizic acid, resveratrol, and lipid modifiers like atorvastatin. I hopefully will be good and praying I will not get it. I don't have any heart issues now and am breathing normally, but I am extremely cautious now.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I can see webby urates and the gas bubbles. Definately signs of internal infection


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

You can find Sulfamethoxazole / Trimethoprim capsules sold under the "Fish Aid" brand online without a prescription. You may need a cheap jewelry scale to measure it out with as those scales can measure miligrams. Dosing may be a bit tricky, but I can help you. For pigeons, it is 25mg/per kg body mass, given twice a day per oral route for 7 days.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Fish Aid brand is a good brand as they generally use human-grade meds that are close to expiry date, and they are highly soluble. Just take apart the gelatin capsules and empty the contents out on a zeroed out/tared scale that has a small piece of paper already on it. After weighing out a dose, it will be easy to carefully fold the paper and powder up to dose in the formula. I just hope she won't gag any of it up as she will need every little bit in her.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Fish Aid brand is a good brand as they generally use human-grade meds that are close to expiry date, and they are highly soluble. Just take apart the gelatin capsules and empty the contents out on a zeroed out/tared scale that has a small piece of paper already on it. After weighing out a dose, it will be easy to carefully fold the paper and powder up to dose in the formula. I just hope she won't gag any of it up as she will need every little bit in her.


sadly all the sites I’ve found that sell what you’re referring to and the brand, don’t ship to Italy. I’ll keep searching. I’ve never seen that medicine mentioned until now, can you shed some insight for a newbie like me, how does it differ from baytril?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She had a very unusual night. She didn’t poop for a long time and then had monster volume









It was quite bubbly but I didn’t have my phone to hand... the rag absorbed the liquid with the bubbles before I could snap this. That was just before 11pm last night. Then she had a very restless few hours, really active and jumping all over her cage and baby flapping, and she would do the same when I took her out but she just wanted to be close to me. At 2:30am I fed her, she had not pooped again and I wondered if she was hungry or had a tummy ache, so thought that might help get things moving. She finally slept after 4:30am but still hadn’t pooped. (Very unusual). At 9am she still hadn’t pooped (never before happened that she went 10 hours and 2 feeds without a movement so I went to get her formula and I watched her straining and making a lot of noise only to expel the largest and strangest movement she’s ever done!








I feel like you can’t tell from the pic the size and volume, but it was huge and had some grey poop like shapes in (you can see them looking like grey fat caterpillars with creases in).... very strange! I fed her, and she snuggled down and seemed quite relaxed.









I’m so confused by her!Last night was the first time her behavior has ever been unusual, and she seems to be fine now! Iam trying to find a testing service that can do millions of tests for me but no luck so far! I want a full battery of tests to really eliminate what it isn’t!
If anyone happens to read this and has any idea? Feel free to chip in!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Baytril is what I would consider the third line (and last line) of defense for treating bacterial infections. Enrofloxacin (Baytril) is a fluoroquinolone class antibiotic like ciprofloxacin, norfloxacin, etc. I suggested SMZ/TMP (Bactrim, Septra) because it is more effective in drug-resistant strains of Salmonella. Perhaps you could ask your vet for a prescription at a farmacia veterinaria. They may call it Septra, but I am not sure. Another round of Baytril may work, but I would suggest a longer course if you are unable to get SMZ/TMP. I hope her salmonella isn't drug resistant. Poor thing


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

She will need something ASAP as I am afraid for her and with her intestinal difficulties and diarrhea now


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

TMP/SMZ (or TMP/SMX) are two combined antibiotics that prevent bacteria making or utilizing folates like folic acid. It has been around for over 40 years. Italy _should_ have some and I can not understand why they are so restrictive for animal medications :/

I hope you have some baytril on hand to be able to give her something now, or ask your vet for some bactrim/septra (or more baytril if you are out and he cannot get you a prescription for TMP/SMZ).


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Prays for Xena*


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Thanks Jon! I didn’t hear from the veg today sadly so it will have to wait til Monday. But i do have baytril!


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Understanding that Xena has had a 30day + course of baytril, I would be very cautious with another course of Baytril . Personally the lumps you have provided pictures of tell me that Xena is showing signs of Mycoplasma over growth. The Mycoplasma bacteria are opportunist and exist in the animal naturally. When the birds immune system is compromised the mycoplasma will proliferate. In all the Paratyphoid pigeons I've treated, about half of them show signs of Mycoplasma over growth after 10-14 day of baytril. I have rehab friends that treat Myco with doxycycline. I've never treated Myco with antibiotics and I have about the same success that my rehab friends have by focusing on the immune system support.
Good luck


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

John B said:


> Understanding that Xena has had a 30day + course of baytril, I would be very cautious with another course of Baytril . Personally the lumps you have provided pictures of tell me that Xena is showing signs of Mycoplasma over growth. The Mycoplasma bacteria are opportunist and exist in the animal naturally. When the birds immune system is compromised the mycoplasma will proliferate. In all the Paratyphoid pigeons I've treated, about half of them show signs of Mycoplasma over growth after 10-14 day of baytril. I have rehab friends that treat Myco with doxycycline. I've never treated Myco with antibiotics and I have about the same success that my rehab friends have by focusing on the immune system support.
> Good luck


John, thanks for chipping in! 
the boil on the shoulder had completely diminished - it’s not swollen again. That wirh the swelling of the leg joint and the issues with her pooping, are you thinking that it couldn’t be salmonella? Because all of these symptoms are what she showed last time and she deteriorated very fast. I don’t know what myco is - are these symptoms?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

John B said:


> Understanding that Xena has had a 30day + course of baytril, I would be very cautious with another course of Baytril . Personally the lumps you have provided pictures of tell me that Xena is showing signs of Mycoplasma over growth. The Mycoplasma bacteria are opportunist and exist in the animal naturally. When the birds immune system is compromised the mycoplasma will proliferate. In all the Paratyphoid pigeons I've treated, about half of them show signs of Mycoplasma over growth after 10-14 day of baytril. I have rehab friends that treat Myco with doxycycline. I've never treated Myco with antibiotics and I have about the same success that my rehab friends have by focusing on the immune system support.
> Good luck


just to clarify, I did do some google searching before I replied to you but everything I found on myco appeared to be respiratory and she has none of the symptoms listed.... so just want to make sure I understand fully.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> John, thanks for chipping in!
> the boil on the shoulder had completely diminished - it’s not swollen again. That wirh the swelling of the leg joint and the issues with her pooping, are you thinking that it couldn’t be salmonella? Because all of these symptoms are what she showed last time and she deteriorated very fast. I don’t know what myco is - are these symptoms?


 It was meant to say. “It’s NOW swollen again” as opposed to “not”.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Not sure if these pics are clear. Her boil is protruding again from the shoulder (it was pink prior to this week) and the joint on her leg is very hot to the touch and swollen. She’s standing on it funny so her foot is much further forward than usual.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

The very first time I was confronted with the same symptoms Xena is having was in 2008 and there was loads of info on pigeon biz regarding paratyphoid co-infections. I've searched with in the site and I can't find anything useful. That's not the first time I have had no luck searching for past posts in pigeon biz.

It was in 2012 that a vet and my mentor clarified the co-infections which are common here in a small isolated tropical environment. 

here is something worth taking a look at : Mycoplasma columbinum Isolated From a Racing Pigeon ( Columba livia ) With Arthritis - PubMed


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I’m not able to get the meds sadly so Injidtvhave to hang on with baytril. I’m hoping it helps! She’s vomiting after every meal now, but I found a lab here in Italy and hope to talk to them tomorrow for postal tests! Fingers crossed


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I hope you can figure out what is wrong with her. She has been through so much. xx


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I hope you can get some tests done. I truly hope she can take the antibiotic and keep it down. Perhaps give her smaller feedings with baytril evenly mixed into the formula. You may not be able to dose her right at first, but I hope it will have an effect so she will keep her food and doses down in due time. Poor little thing 

Does the abcess on the wing joint feel soft or hard? I ask as it may need to be carefully drained. I may be able to guide you through the process or your vet friend could. I was really hoping that the vet would have been able to prescribe bactrim/septra, or anything really. I also hope you have a good amount of bayril left over, as you will need a miminum of 7 days. A few days worth would do more harm than good if you can not continue without any more antibiotics as a short course would most likely create drug resistance.

It could be a reinfection of the same bacterium she had before. Rarely, a co-infection can occur like John said with other opportunistic bacterium or mycoplasmas that take advantage of a depressed immunity or inflammation. But I hope not. I also suggest garlic water as I mentioned previously in addition to the baytril. It works on many bacterium, even drug resistant strains.

Also, try to keep her very warm and calm. Perhaps a water bottle or a mild source of warmth she can have to snuggle upon if she chooses. She will definately need vitamins (with vitamin B12) and a bit of electrolytes, especially if she still has copius or persistant amounts of watery or loose droppings.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Just be sure not to overdose with baytril. You will simply need to evenly divide her daily dose into multiple smaller doses in her formula feedings. I am praying she responds well to it and gets better soon.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Poor little thing has been through enough as Marina said  I will be praying for her


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Poor little thing has been through enough as Marina said  I will be praying for her


 Poor little thing she's come so far really hope she makes a full recovery soon 🤞🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Thanks guys! 
yes, I hope so too! Communicating with the lab is a bit tricky with the language barrier but I’m talking with the Uk office so hopefully it’s possible to get the info from them and just get the tests done here. She’s been struggling with toileting this past day, quite unusual.... today she passed what I thought was a big black worm but once I extracted it and washed it, it was a feather. I hope this might have been the cause for upset? The next feed I gave her she didn’t vomit at all! (First time in ages) not even gagging! She’s been happy as a clam ever since!

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

oh and @jonrf she has a hot water bottle set up in her cage which she loves, a big one to sit on and a mini one leaning on the wall which she likes to rest her chest on! She loves to be toasty!
As far as Baytril goes, I found my dogs prescription last year so I have TONS! Enough for months and months and months so I’m happy. I’ve left 3 messages for the bet but no response, our region is in lockdown again but when I drove past there were 12 people in a socially distant line outside his place so I turned around and came back!
I had forgotten to mention that I removed the splint yesterday from her foot, and while the foot itself seems a little wonky on the ankle? Her toes are now placed correctly! Progress! I’ll take any good news I can get!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Her angelic sleeping spot.... she likes the warmth all over! Hot water bottle under and she’s leaning on a baby hot water bottle. Ps. She hasn’t gagged or vomited since she passed that feather!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena hasn’t gagged off vomited in two days, hurrah! (She does gag a little with the tube in as I’m feeding but that’s very quick, and I suppose understandable given she has something in her throat!) .... BUT ....

since the gagging and puking has stopped, she’s developed a new personality! Whenever she’s in her cage, she will peck me (hard, not sweetly) and wing slap me!!! She’s never done this before! I read online that pigeons get quite territorial about their “house”.... would this be typical for this type of behavior? When she’s out she’ll snuggle Oh my neck and be cute and sweet, I can touch her and be near her and she basically ignores me. Even if the dogs are around her she just ignores them! But it’s a different story when we approach her cage! She stands up very straight and puffs her chest up and cocks her head to the side and pecks and slaps! 😹😹It’s so strange because she’s never ever done anything like this!
At night she usually sleeps on her hot water bottle, but the last two nights she’s been perching on a moss pole I have very low in her cage (just a few inches off the ground) .... is she just growing up?
Hope everyone is okay! I wish I could see all your faces, thank you all so much for all the help and chat and support and encouragement you’ve given me since September! Such a lovely community!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's normal behaviour. Unfortunately they do change when they start maturing. It's also a good sign that she is healthy. Clean the cage when she is outside, also change the food and water when she is not in the cage. The cage is her territory.

Glad to hear she is doing well.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> That's normal behaviour. Unfortunately they do change when they start maturing. It's also a good sign that she is healthy. Clean the cage when she is outside, also change the food and water when she is not in the cage. The cage is her territory.
> 
> Glad to hear she is doing well.


Thanks Marina! I’m glad she’s doing well enough to attack my poor hand then! 🤣


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I am so, so relieved to hear she is improving! I was getting worried about her not hearing from you for a few days.

Yep, she is defending her nest space, in typical pigeon fashion, haha! Typical pigeon behavior, and like Marina said, it is a good sign of health and vigor.

Like feral pigeons, they will usually act different or even nice once in neutral territory. She may try to be cute and bond with you or the dog now, and once she falls in love she may act more aloof or defensive with strangers or who/whatever she hasn't bonded to. But if she bonds to you she will allow you close to her while laying in her cage, even for suggles. She is still young, so it may take a few months for her mature personality to fully take shape. You may have to provide calcium and vitamin D3 if she is indeed a female as she may lay an egg in a few months. If woodies are anyhing like feral pigeons, they are next to impossible to sex correctly based on appearance. Usually I have to wait a few good months to tell by behavioral clues. Males are usually more vocal and do display and courtship dances and are generally more aggressive and fiesty. Besides laying an egg, a genetic test can be done by sending a feather to a lab by mail to determine sex.

I hope and pray she will get completely past her infection. Sometimes, after treating salmonella/paratyphoid with antibiotics new boils or joint swelling can occur post resolution of the infection but they will subside in time and are not contagious. I will hope and pray for her to be able to get through this, and then be able to eat a normal healthy diet of leaves in time, and that her gut flora will restore to a healthy balance.

So glad and relieved she is doing better!! Yayyyy!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

A good pdf showing how to age woodies based on plumage. It mentions males have darker chests, but you will need to compare two woodies at the same age and season to tell.


http://blascozumeta.com/wp-content/uploads/aragon-birds/non-passeriformes/261.woodpigeon-cpalumbus.pdf



(I did not get any email updates on your last posts so I assumed you didn't respond since my last post re that I hope she gets better. Smacks the pigeons.biz webserver*)


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Tell her to stop eating her feathers! Haha!!

How is her spot/boil on her wing doing? I hope it is going away. Did you start her on baytril again or not? If she passed her feather and is keeping her food down without antibiotics, then I would suggest to hold off on baytril for now, obviosuly.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

jonrf said:


> Tell her to stop eating her feathers! Haha!!
> 
> How is her spot/boil on her wing doing? I hope it is going away. Did you start her on baytril again or not? If she passed her feather and is keeping her food down without antibiotics, then I would suggest to hold off on baytril for now, obviosuly.


Yeh I sometimes don't get alerts, and just have to go through all the chat and see what's new! 

I had started her on baytril but then she puked it up at every meal (the tablet portion is as small as 1/3 grain of rice but she apparently knows its there and will vomit until its up!) so I stopped giving it, if only to see if she would stop gagging, and she did indeed stop. I was going to start it again crushed in her food, but the boil on her shoulder had reduced again and there were no bubbles in her droppings so I made the decision not to give her the baytril after all. She has been doing so well, she won't accept more than 15ml of formula at a time, if I go even 1ml over that she will vomit up a small amount. So we are back to 10-15ml. I'm trying to listen to her behavior and actions and make decisions based on that. Hoping its the right call! 

I wasn't on for a few days because I threw my back/hip out somehow, so I was just doing the absolute bare minimum. My husband was literally doing everything for me and the muscle relaxers made me a bit woowoo, so I felt it was best to stay off social media and the internet, lest I say something strange! 

I found a lab here in Italy who will do the pigeon tests and sexing, but has to come from a vet. Hoping to get an appointment this week (no luck in the last fortnight!) 

In other news, she makes the wood pigeon noise usually once a day, and it always corresponds with me or my husband leaving her view!* Is she calling to us?*

Ohhhhh! Thanks for the PDF, talking of plumage. A few weeks ago I noticed a tiny little feather mite on my hand after handling Cher. (The other feral pigeon I have with PMV) so I treated them both with the harkers drops - Im not sure they worked, Xena has the tell tale signs of feather mites on her tail feathers. I ordered a mite spray last month and it's still not here (It should arrive between Dec 22 and Jan 4).. *is there anything holistic I could do to help with this?* I gave Xena a little bath yesterday when I noticed it, and I couldn't tell if the debris in the sink was food/poop dust or mites. Sadly I didn't think to grab some and check under my microscope! 

Today I was spending time with Xena on the couch and she flew up to the top of her cage! The first time she has flown up, and she landed like a pro! She doesn't fly much, only short distances, and she still have loose droppings because of the formula so Im not encouraging her to do more, just letting her fly whenever she wants! (No one needs droppings splattered all over their couch, I already have formula vomit to clean off the walls as she shakes her head with a beak full!) 

@jonrf how's your health? I hope you're feeling better!

Hope you're all having a nice weekend!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

This is what she looks like most of the night, she just loves to wedge herself between the brick and hot water bottle and rest her beak on her puffed up chest! Such a sweet girl!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I wonder if her persistent feather eating is down to her deformed beak? More than once a day I’ll watch her preening, and then the feather is stuck in her beak, and she tried to remove it but ends up trying to swallow it instead. I rescued two quite large feathers today from her throat, just in the nick of time. The problem is I obviously can’t watch her all the time so she’s bound to keep eating them.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96552
> 
> Xena hasn’t gagged off vomited in two days, hurrah! (She does gag a little with the tube in as I’m feeding but that’s very quick, and I suppose understandable given she has something in her throat!) .... BUT ....
> 
> ...


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96552
> 
> Xena hasn’t gagged off vomited in two days, hurrah! (She does gag a little with the tube in as I’m feeding but that’s very quick, and I suppose understandable given she has something in her throat!) .... BUT ....
> 
> ...


 Oh yes they do change quite a bit as they mature trust me like you I was quite dismayed and surprised when Peter suddenly started becoming quite aggressive but it didn't take me long to discover this is quite normal behaviour for Pigeon's they do like to remind you what they see as belonging to them it's quite sad at first when you think to yourself where has my sweet loving fledgeling gone to but you just have to remind yourself that it's perfectly normal behaviour .🙂


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Oh yes they do change quite a bit as they mature trust me like you I was quite dismayed and surprised when Peter suddenly started becoming quite aggressive but it didn't take me long to discover this is quite normal behaviour for Pigeon's they do like to remind you what they see as belonging to them it's quite sad at first when you think to yourself where has my sweet loving fledgeling gone to but you just have to remind yourself that it's perfectly normal behaviour .🙂


it was literally one day to the next she started to peck at me and wing slap, lol! I was so shocked! 🤣 she isn’t doing it so much now, but it’s definitely only when she’s in the cage so I’m pleased it’s a territorial thing. She loves to lay on my chest and drop her wings in the evening, like a little melted pigeon shaped snowman who’s been in the sun! She just turns Into a blob when she’s relaxed! Hard to take a pic but it’s nice when she snuggles up in my neck and hair and falls asleep with tiny little peeps in her exhales!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Two beautiful souls together. Has she shown any interest in eating seeds?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Two beautiful souls together. Has she shown any interest in eating seeds?


thanks Marina! I do so love her! 🥰

no interest in eating them, but she will play with them on and off all day long. If I encourage her to eat them (for example when one is in her beak, by tilting her head back) it’s
A. Usually unsuccessful and 
B. Always followed by gagging until the seed is vomited! 
I feel like she just cannot bear the thought of something solid in her throat or crop! The first feed of the morning she almost always gags, (formula) though in the past 3 days she hasn’t actually expelled anything. I can’t figure it out because if I don’t put the syringe tubedeep enough into her cropand It deposits in her Esophagus she will gag definitely, but that first feed of the morning it’s like she needs to bring it up into her esophagus as a habit? Almost like she’s moisturizing her throat or checking the formula. I felt maybe she was thirsty but she won’t touch water and if I give her water on her tongue she just flicks it out.
I do think there’s progress, for 2-3 days now she’s only gagged after the longer nighttime period, first thing in the morning. The other feeds in the day she will gag with the tube in her throat but after that she just goes about her business! I’ve never seen her look excited her food, but she does settle after getting it!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hey Friends! 
today Xena was ultra interested in the seeds (she always has them around to play with) ... so I decided to give her some. She had 13 sunflower hearts before she began to gag. She didn’t actually expel any, she just gagged a lot! 
then this evening I decided to give her some peas.. she had 16, started to gag, gave me one back (puked it on to my hand) ... then a few mins later started trying to pick them up again, so I gave her a few more. So far, so good! No gagging since 45 mins!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's great!


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

So glad to hear she's eating on her own and actually keeping most of it down!! That's teriffic! 

She definately has to get used to eating solids, and she may just be at the age (or a bit older) that she should be eating completely on her own. That is wondeful she is expressing interest in eating. It is a clear indicator that she's weaned. Poor little girl been through a lot, and this news made me smile.

Be sure to try more fresh, washed leafy greens. Too many sunflower hearts are potentially bad as it can tend to lead to fatty liver disease, so use as a rare treat 

I am doing better. I had a difficult time getting past my sinus infection, but it is gone now


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I think I need to slow down on solids as today she didn’t keep anything down. I’ll give her a few peas at each meal, and slowly increase! 🥰
@jonrf while she picked the seeds up herself she wasn’t able to do more than that, I fed her everything. But it’s still a win in my opinion!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

My dog Nemo left his toy on the couch today, and Xena took the opportunity to snuggle up to it and fall asleep. Could she be any cuter??? I’m besotted with her!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

She kept a few peas down today, and is loving her lion!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena seems to be pretty stable at the moment. She’s managing to keep down 10 seeds or peas at a time, supplementing her formula (Inhad feed both). She loves to annoy the dogs and peck at their toes, but by now they just stay asleep and ignore her. 
hope you all had a nice Christmas!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

This week I’ve noticed that when Xena is relaxing she often favors the right side... (see the pic, she loves to drop her wings and relax when snuggling on me but recently it’s also when she’s sitting on her cage) and I’ve also noticed her right foot is regressing to it’s old ways (pre splint, all claws kinda bunched up and the thumb facing forward with her standing on the side of her foot).... today I did some investigating and I’ve discovered that her right toes don’t have any grip at all anymore, they just kinda hang there, and she stands on her inner ankle which appears to be fused in a strange position. I tried to use the same method for a splint as I did before, but she just wasn’t able to stand on the foot straight and was quite literally falling over. So i took that one off and just created a soft splint with vet wrap. My goal is to get her back claw (thumb?) to point backwards, and her others to face forwards. I wrapped each individual toe a few times with vet wrap, and then a soft wrap around all 3, and soft wrap around the back one. I’m not sure what I’m hoping to achieve, But before I try to get a vet appointment I felt it was best to wrap for a few weeks and see if it doesn’t help. She doesn’t seem impressed with the wrap and has taken to what I call her nesting, where she snuggles in her crate between the brick and the crate door. (Contained, as it were - she seems to enjoy the structure around her).

anyway, bit worried about the lack of grip but I have a feeling that this was the case last time and the grip came back after the splitting? Or at least some movement? I guess we will see. Has anyone had experience with a pigeon who has lost grip in the toes?

in other news, I’ve added blueberries to her diet and she is managing to keep down x2 at a time (i chop up small and hand feed). She’s obviously still on formula top but I’m hoping that will phase out slowly, i almost don’t want to jinx it but she hasn’t gagged in 48+ hours - not even after the solid snacks, so fingers crossed!

her droppings remain to be quite soft and liquid... once in a while there’s a bubble, but 9/10 the liquid is bubble free. I suppose it’s to be expected given that she’s still on formula. I read on the forum last night a pigeon who took almost a year to self feed, so I haven’t given up hope!
Anyway. She has slow feather growth on her head and face, but the rest of the body is looking good! I wonder when her white ring will appear round her neck? I think she was about 4 weeks old when I found her in mid September, so surely it’s almost time for that grownup plumage?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Curled up toes is a sign of Vit B2 (riboflavin) deficiency. One can actually make a shoe from cardboard and tape the toes on there in the correct position. I found if you google info for chickens, there are lots of info. Chickens are basically just a version of a much larger pigeon, they get the same diseases etc. Google curled up toes in chicks.

I also have a young pigeon with curled up toes and health issues. Strange enough, been handfeeding for 3 months and she also gags when I feed formula balls. Canker treatment did nothing for the swallowing issues. She also have no desire to self feed.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi @Marina B - I wouldn’t call them curled up really, more like,,, floppy. It’s like her ankle is fused in the wrong position so she walks on the inside, of her ankle/foot, and all 4 claws/toes point forward but they are very much straight.

I had made a splint some time ago (which seemed to be successful), let me show you!








It was cardboard and vet wrap and then some adhesive bandage. It has initially made the cardboard shaped like the toes but she was able to stand on the inside edge of it, so I had to add a flat piece to the bottom which helped her to stand up like you see in this pic. Sadly the same method didn’t work this time, she wasn’t able to stand on it at all and just balanced on the edge of the “shoe” which is why I made a soft splint instead. She absolutely hates it though, I think her foot or ankle might be giving her pain because she’s now avoiding weight bearing and in the night I woke up to her using her wing instead of her foot. I will give it another day but I’m not happy about that at all, might have to go back to the drawing board. That foot has such little if any grip I’m worried there’s something more permanently wrong with it. 

We both have a bird with the mystery illness! I just wonder what it could be. I wish I could get to the bottom of it.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Well.... I just managed to get an emergency appointment at the vet as she kinda deteriorated this morning to falling over on that side and using her wing to move. On examination it was clear there’s some pretty intense swelling on both legs, and this is exactly what happened last time the salmonella reared it’s ugly head! He thinks it’s salmonella again (still) so he’s ordering some meds I can pick up tomorrow. Poor little Xena can’t catch a break! For now she’s propped up in her carrier with a rolled up flannel keeping the weight off the right side. She’s just had some formula and blueberries, tried desperately to vomit but after 3 minutes of trying, she fell asleep.
Sadly because of the issues in Italy with pigeons it’s not possible to test her for salmonella as the local health department would get a notification and she could be removed and killed. So no tests to clarify 100% but it does seem to be presenting the same as last time!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Well.... I just managed to get an emergency appointment at the vet as she kinda deteriorated this morning to falling over on that side and using her wing to move. On examination it was clear there’s some pretty intense swelling on both legs, and this is exactly what happened last time the salmonella reared it’s ugly head! He thinks it’s salmonella again (still) so he’s ordering some meds I can pick up tomorrow. Poor little Xena can’t catch a break! For now she’s propped up in her carrier with a rolled up flannel keeping the weight off the right side. She’s just had some formula and blueberries, tried desperately to vomit but after 3 minutes of trying, she fell asleep.
> Sadly because of the issues in Italy with pigeons it’s not possible to test her for salmonella as the local health department would get a notification and she could be removed and killed. So no tests to clarify 100% but it does seem to be presenting the same as last time!
> View attachment 96656


 Oh no this is so depressing she's come so far doesn't deserve all this . Stay positive and so will all of your friends on the forum .👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Oh no this is so depressing she's come so far doesn't deserve all this . Stay positive and so will all of your friends on the forum .👍🏻


Thanks Spencer! I’m staying strong for her, the bet is so impressed with how amazing she looks so I’m happy!
I’ve just found out that salmonellosis can cause birds to regurgitate food! @Marina B I wonder if it’s possible your bird has this also?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

@jonrf are you online!? I need some help! Sending you a DM


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi Everyone!
> 
> My name is Joey - I'm British and live in Porcia, Northern Italy. Last week I found a fledgling pigeon really suffering with Pox and had been attacked by what I suspect was the neighborhood cats - she found shelter under my veranda and didn't move when I approached. On closer inspection it was clear she has Pox, and was severely lethargic, and bloody.
> 
> ...


Awww please keep us posted. Sweet bird. Your doing an amazing job keep up the great work


Joeyspesh said:


> Well.... I just managed to get an emergency appointment at the vet as she kinda deteriorated this morning to falling over on that side and using her wing to move. On examination it was clear there’s some pretty intense swelling on both legs, and this is exactly what happened last time the salmonella reared it’s ugly head! He thinks it’s salmonella again (still) so he’s ordering some meds I can pick up tomorrow. Poor little Xena can’t catch a break! For now she’s propped up in her carrier with a rolled up flannel keeping the weight off the right side. She’s just had some formula and blueberries, tried desperately to vomit but after 3 minutes of trying, she fell asleep.
> Sadly because of the issues in Italy with pigeons it’s not possible to test her for salmonella as the local health department would get a notification and she could be removed and killed. So no tests to clarify 100% but it does seem to be presenting the same as last time!
> View attachment 96656


What kind of pigeon issues in Italy? That's sooo sad. Please keep her fighting and fighting for her and give her a pat on the head and best wishes and love from all of us on this board who are rooting for her to get healthier and stronger stay strong and keep up the amazing job you are doing with Xena she's beautiful.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Thesis79 said:


> Awww please keep us posted. Sweet bird. Your doing an amazing job keep up the great work
> 
> What kind of pigeon issues in Italy? That's sooo sad. Please keep her fighting and fighting for her and give her a pat on the head and best wishes and love from all of us on this board who are rooting for her to get healthier and stronger stay strong and keep up the amazing job you are doing with Xena she's beautiful.


Thank you so much! Italy sees pigeons as pests and it’s not legal to give wild animals care or medical attention, so veterinary care is next to impossible! She’s sadly taken a turn for the worse, so I have an emergency appointment Thursday morning at an avian vet. My local vet is stumped and he can’t do X-rays on birds.


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Thank you so much! Italy sees pigeons as pests and it’s not legal to give wild animals care or medical attention, so veterinary care is next to impossible! She’s sadly taken a turn for the worse, so I have an emergency appointment Thursday morning at an avian vet. My local vet is stumped and he can’t do X-rays on birds.


Awww that's horrible I'm in canada we have lots of certain types of animals as protected including the Falcon ugh which I'm not a fan of 1 because they eat pigeons and 2 there's falcons who have a nest nearby at the local Hotel chain. But sadly pigeons are not protected I think unless it's racers which we do have a racing club in my city and my friends dad used to have 60 birds that he would breed and sell to people who race pigeons but he only has 30 now he had to downsize he moved. I wish more people like us would like them and protect them and help them medically that breaks my heart all creatures need help their helpless sweet birds. I had this one bird who came in my door way in the summer time and i think it was the same bird who would sit on the back of my balcony chair and watch me and once i was playing calming relaxing music and this same bird came and sat next to me by the keyboard I turned and was surprised and she didn't budge sat there starring at me till I said that she should be inside and she jumped down and went outside it was the cutest thing. I pray and hope everything gets better with Xena my heart breaks for her


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Thesis79 said:


> Awww that's horrible I'm in canada we have lots of certain types of animals as protected including the Falcon ugh which I'm not a fan of 1 because they eat pigeons and 2 there's falcons who have a nest nearby at the local Hotel chain. But sadly pigeons are not protected I think unless it's racers which we do have a racing club in my city and my friends dad used to have 60 birds that he would breed and sell to people who race pigeons but he only has 30 now he had to downsize he moved. I wish more people like us would like them and protect them and help them medically that breaks my heart all creatures need help their helpless sweet birds. I had this one bird who came in my door way in the summer time and i think it was the same bird who would sit on the back of my balcony chair and watch me and once i was playing calming relaxing music and this same bird came and sat next to me by the keyboard I turned and was surprised and she didn't budge sat there starring at me till I said that she should be inside and she jumped down and went outside it was the cutest thing. I pray and hope everything gets better with Xena my heart breaks for her


She just has to make it another 36 hours... and then she gets a legitimate avian vet appointment with X-rays and tests! Fingers crossed!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> She just has to make it another 36 hours... and then she gets a legitimate avian vet appointment with X-rays and tests! Fingers crossed!


prayers for this sweet baby girl please keep me posted can't they take her sooner?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Thesis79 said:


> prayers for this sweet baby girl please keep me posted can't they take her sooner?


The whole of Italy is in lockdown; he’s the only avian vet in maybe 4 regions, and we aren’t allowed to travel. So he travels around each day. Tomorrow he’s in Venice which is prohibited to travel to (because of covid) so I have no choice but to wait til the next morning, i sent him pictures of the leg and explained, and he told me that even though it looks bad it’s not an emergency. She’s behaving normally, preening, trying to fly etc, so she should be fine. I’m just hoping he’s right!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I hope she will be ok!!!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> The whole of Italy is in lockdown; he’s the only avian vet in maybe 4 regions, and we aren’t allowed to travel. So he travels around each day. Tomorrow he’s in Venice which is prohibited to travel to (because of covid) so I have no choice but to wait til the next morning, i sent him pictures of the leg and explained, and he told me that even though it looks bad it’s not an emergency. She’s behaving normally, preening, trying to fly etc, so she should be fine. I’m just hoping he’s right!


Hope so too Prayers to Xena 🙏🧡


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> I hope she will be ok!!!


Thanks Marina! And maybe I’ll get some answers about the vomiting etc. obviously I’ll keep you updated. I’ve been so worried about her, she must have broken her leg when she crash landed one day (she almost always crash lands) ... I’m so annoyed at myself for not noticing but the vet also didn’t notice so that helps with the guilt. Her skin under the feathers is literally black in places and her foot is starting to go very dark.... the vet said it’s a hematoma and luckily I have metacam so that’s helpful for the swelling. 😔 I’m going to tell myself that as horrific has her leg looks, it’s a good thing... because this prompted me to call more than 25 vets and I finally found a specific avian vet and he was happy to see “my pet” wood pigeon. This way she will get a full panel of tests and I feel like that’s the silver lining, now I can finally get her better! I can’t attach photos on here anymore, I think I need to start a new thread! This one has been saturated!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Oh I fixed it! Here’s the bad leg, yesterday it was pink and swollen at the vets when he examined it, but not like this. You can see where it’s going grey in places.








This is the bit that really freaked me out, at the front of the leg under the feathers her skin is almost completely black. The vet said not to worry and if she broke her leg the bruising will present like this as a hematoma.
Please excuse her mucky feet, she still has very loose movements (as she’s on formula! So she’s often quite dirty and I don’t want to mess with her broken leg more than I have to so I just did cursory cleaning. Looks terrible with the flash, but I promise she’s not living in filth! 








Early this morning she was sitting on leg at a very strange angle so I wrapped it lightly in ace bandage, and she seemed much happier with it dangling behind while she perched/slept. This morning I removed that one and did the same but just on the ankle as she was moving her toes. They have some grip back today (yesterday they were kind of limp, I was really worried). She’s preening and trying to fly, and her mood is normal. I’m trying not to worry, in less than 24 hours she will be with a specialist and hopefully we can get to the bottom of whatever is ailing her! (And fix her leg).


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96663
> 
> Oh I fixed it! Here’s the bad leg, yesterday it was pink and swollen at the vets when he examined it, but not like this. You can see where it’s going grey in places.
> View attachment 96664
> ...


Awww sweet pidge keep up the awesome work. Keep us posted on how the appointment goes 🙏 🧡


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> She just has to make it another 36 hours... and then she gets a legitimate avian vet appointment with X-rays and tests! Fingers crossed!


 Hi there how's the little one doing any improvement ?


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Okay, Jon and Marina here are some pics! Let me know if you need different angles or more specific.
> View attachment 96404
> View attachment 96405
> View attachment 96406
> ...


Omg she's a sweetheart


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Hi there how's the little one doing any improvement ?


no improvement sadly, but she’s managing to avoid that black leg and foot! I’ll be leaving in 5 hours to get to the appointment which is about an hour away, so by the time I log back on tomorrow I’ll have more information for you all I hope! 🥰


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> no improvement sadly, but she’s managing to avoid that black leg and foot! I’ll be leaving in 5 hours to get to the appointment which is about an hour away, so by the time I log back on tomorrow I’ll have more information for you all I hope! 🥰


 Hi there how did she get on at the vets ?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I posted this morning, or so I thought!! I dunno what happened there.
The vet was lovely. He did an X-ray, she doesn’t have a break just lots of fluid around the joint which is super swollen, which he thinks is bacterial based on her poop. Prescribed bactrim and will check in on Monday to decide what to do next! Meanwhile, Xena was brilliant! She’s totally awesome today, preening, snuggling, being sweet. Ya know! 
here’s to 2021 and her health!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> I posted this morning, or so I thought!! I dunno what happened there.
> The vet was lovely. He did an X-ray, she doesn’t have a break just lots of fluid around the joint which is super swollen, which he thinks is bacterial based on her poop. Prescribed bactrim and will check in on Monday to decide what to do next! Meanwhile, Xena was brilliant! She’s totally awesome today, preening, snuggling, being sweet. Ya know!
> here’s to 2021 and her health!
> View attachment 96684


I'm sooo happy she's on the mend 
sweet beautiful girl


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Thesis79 said:


> I'm sooo happy she's on the mend
> sweet beautiful girl


 That's such good news 🙂


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena’s right foot is still quite swollen. And she’s not able to stand on it straight. I can’t really tell if it’s getting better or worse, she’s been on the antibiotics for a few days now (Bactrim)... although she vomits after every single dose so it’s hard to know how much she’s keeping down.

She seems to be happiest either laying on my chest and resting on my face, or the same position with her teddy (see the pic).

min the last few days I’ve been adding ground seeds to her formula. Which I think is helping her droppings firm up a little - but obviously she’s still on formula so they are always on then wet Side.

the vet said to be patient, and I’m trying but it’s so hard towatch her struggle on this leg!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96689
> 
> Xena’s right foot is still quite swollen. And she’s not able to stand on it straight. I can’t really tell if it’s getting better or worse, she’s been on the antibiotics for a few days now (Bactrim)... although she vomits after every single dose so it’s hard to know how much she’s keeping down.
> 
> ...


Awww be patient I know from experience it's sooo hard to wait but that and lots of prayers at least she was seen by the vet and given meds and she's got to be feeling a bit better hopefully. She's sooo snuggly and cute next to her teddy bear awww xo


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Just checked on her after a walk, and her leg is bleeding. Doesn't seem to be any trauma, just where she is resting the inner 'ankle' to stand, it seems to be so swollen that its almost split in a few places? (If you scroll back you can see in one of the pics) Anyway, one of the scabs appears to have broken open. 

I have used some soft bandage and then medical tape to protect it, and I'll check in a few hours and see how it looks. I have some pigeon leg splints on order but who knows when they will actually arrive..... post in Italy is tricky at the best of the times let alone new year, covid and brexit! Fingers crossed I guess. At least she can be seen by the vet if needed, and she has antibiotics so there shouldn't be any further infection. 

Talking of her antibiotics I actually have no clue how much she is keeping down due to the amount she's vomiting.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If she keeps on vomiting, maybe you can get an alternative antibiotic from the vet. Amoxycillin is very safe to use for infections.


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Just checked on her after a walk, and her leg is bleeding. Doesn't seem to be any trauma, just where she is resting the inner 'ankle' to stand, it seems to be so swollen that its almost split in a few places? (If you scroll back you can see in one of the pics) Anyway, one of the scabs appears to have broken open.
> 
> I have used some soft bandage and then medical tape to protect it, and I'll check in a few hours and see how it looks. I have some pigeon leg splints on order but who knows when they will actually arrive..... post in Italy is tricky at the best of the times let alone new year, covid and brexit! Fingers crossed I guess. At least she can be seen by the vet if needed, and she has antibiotics so there shouldn't be any further infection.
> 
> Talking of her antibiotics I actually have no clue how much she is keeping down due to the amount she's vomiting.


Awww sweet darling she's such a little fighter xo


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> If she keeps on vomiting, maybe you can get an alternative antibiotic from the vet. Amoxycillin is very safe to use for infections.


well, it’s with anything she’s vomiting. Formula, antibiotics, water, peas etc. it’s off and on for months now.He did say on Monday he’s going to call and check her progress and he’ll switch antibiotics if there’s no progress. I wish I could give her food and medicine via a drip or tube (not really, I just want her to be vomit free, for her mental health if nothing else! Can’t be nice going through this several times a day, every day!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> well, it’s with anything she’s vomiting. Formula, antibiotics, water, peas etc. it’s off and on for months now.He did say on Monday he’s going to call and check her progress and he’ll switch antibiotics if there’s no progress. I wish I could give her food and medicine via a drip or tube (not really, I just want her to be vomit free, for her mental health if nothing else! Can’t be nice going through this several times a day, every day!


@Marina B by the way, how’s your similar pidge? Any progress?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

No progress. So ironic that this one hatched in my aviary, severe vitamin deficiency. The female did the incubating and feeding, dad was never involved (only in the mating). There are other health issues as well. Been handfeeding for 3 months now! I've ordered Trikanox, a natural treatment for canker and yeast. Hope this makes a difference. Here's a photo when baby was still small.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Joeyspesh said:


> well, it’s with anything she’s vomiting. Formula, antibiotics, water, peas etc. it’s off and on for months now.He did say on Monday he’s going to call and check her progress and he’ll switch antibiotics if there’s no progress. I wish I could give her food and medicine via a drip or tube (not really, I just want her to be vomit free, for her mental health if nothing else! Can’t be nice going through this several times a day, every day!


Are you dosing nystatin as well??


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

John B said:


> Are you dosing nystatin as well??


Hi John! I did 10 days of nystatin, there was no change during that time.
Oh Marina what a beautiful bird! How do you diagnose the vitamin deficiency? I have a rehabber friend in the UK who also has a young bird who can’t eat alone. I hope one of us has progress and can help the others out!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Today I’m gonna try 10ml at a time instead of 15/20ml.... followed by 2.5ml of water. I noticed she doesn’t seem to like feeling anything in her esophagus - so if I follow with water it seems to stop the gagging. She gagged with her antibiotics this morning (but couldn’t bring it up as it’s only 0.1 but when I gave her a little water after, she stopped gagging. I know everyone says not to syringe water because of the risk of aspiration but she never vomits water, only thicker liquids. I gave her the 10ml and water 5 mins ago and no gagging after the water was administered- maybe this is the key to stop the gagging which in turn will stop the vomiting!?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Baby became paralized when about a month old, couldn't walk or fly. Calcium deficiency. Toes started curling inwards, sign of vit B2 deficiency. Losing feathers around the beak, sign of Vit A or Vit B deficiency. Despite giving vitamins, no improvement. Difficulty swallowing, treated for canker with 2 different meds and for yeast but no improvement. 

The mom had PMV when she was found. Thanks to this forum, I knew what was wrong with her and that she would improve with time and she did! She is my favourite!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Ah how lovely for the mum!
What’s going on with the baby now?
I’m checking in with the vet tomorrow about Xenas leg. It doesn’t look any better and the swelling hasn’t reduced... though it’s only been 4 days and medication takes almost that long to see improvements so I have been told.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

By the way, reducing the volume of formula seems to have stopped her vomiting! I’m happy about that, she gags a little but the water seems to stop it. Her droppings got quite wet this afternoon (which makes sense as I’ve increased her water) but I’ve finely ground seeds and added to her formula and that is helping her droppings firm up.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Frustrating when nothing seems to be working. Waiting for meds to be delivered, hopefully today. Had a hot day yesterday, gave Lilly a bath and here she is soaking up the sun.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Oh she’s SO beautiful! What medication are you going to try?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've ordered Trikanox. It's a totally natural product for canker and yeast. Hopefully this will help as nothing else seemed to be working.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

At least you can go to an avian vet, our closest one is 4 hours drive away.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi Joeyspesh, I'm very glad to hear that finally you have an avian vet!
I hope Xena will feel better soon! She is a so lovely little fighter ❤ !

Could I ask you the name of your avian vet? He is the one located in Veneto I told you about and sent you the links? Or another one? If so, could you please give me all info (name, address, etc)?
As I have a home not far from Garda lake it would be very useful knowing the name of another avian vet (I know there is one even in Cremona but I don't remember his name...), just in case... As I told you, when I was in need I always found a vet and got meds but many vets don't have knowledge in birds...

Thanks so much 😊!

Give a cuddle to Xena from me 🤗.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> I've ordered Trikanox. It's a totally natural product for canker and yeast. Hopefully this will help as nothing else seemed to be working.


That name was ringing a bell for me, and I realized it was from a post on this forum where it says it’s a preventative rather than curative medication as it’s botanical based... (we were desperate in the beginning for Xena as I couldn’t get medication immediately, so I scoured this site and read every post I could).
Do you think the little love might be suffering with canker or yeast?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

@Marina B I tried a product at the beginning called tricolistop or something similar (pigeon vitality) and I didn’t notice any improvement at all... this claims to be 99% effective but it definitely didn’t make a difference to Xena (who had acute issues by then)

by the way I have managed to eliminate the vomiting altogether with Xena. I’ve found that the food needs to be room temperature (not warm) and only 10ml at a time. So strange she used to manage 20ml when she was a tiny little thing! Oh and I give about 0.5ml of water before and after each formula syringe. She doesn’t gag or vomit at all now except when the tube is actually depositing the formula in her crop. Phew! I wish we were close so we could combine our forces and figure this out more conclusively!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Colombina said:


> Hi Joeyspesh, I'm very glad to hear that finally you have an avian vet!
> I hope Xena will feel better soon! She is a so lovely little fighter ❤ !
> 
> Could I ask you the name of your avian vet? He is the one located in Veneto I told you about and sent you the links? Or another one? If so, could you please give me all info (name, address, etc)?
> ...


Hi lovely! Sadly the details you gave me are impossible as we cannot travel to Veneto. I just found a site where you search avian vets worldwide and typed in Italy... many came up so they must have some closer for you. He is based in Palmanova so it’s about an hour east of me. I’ll try to find the website for you but I’m sure you’ll find it with a google search also! 
she thanks you for the cuddle, she loves her affection! 🥰


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm combining the Trikanox with another round of Ronidazole. At least I can continue with the Trikanox when the antibiotics is finished. I'm sure she has canker, I just can't seem to get rid of it. The signs are there. Glad to hear your baby is doing better. Won't hurt to add just a little bit of Nystatin to her formula to keep the yeast under control.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Now, this is new advice to me! I was told nystatin had to be administered on an empty crop and never mixed with food or water. Can you let me know your thoughts on this? 
I wonder if Xena is suffering with Canker too. I've just got the prescription for the new antibiotic so I should be able to pick up tomorrow (today is Ephinany so everything is closed!). Keep me posted on your progress. I just gave Xena a bath for the first time in ages - she was so dirty on her belly and especially towards her tail. She's clean and fluffy and dry now, also giving her leg a break from the bandage until my husband gets home to help me reapply it. Her leg is very dry so was thinking of using a little olive oil on them before I bandage them up.... do you think this would be okay?


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Now, this is new advice to me! I was told nystatin had to be administered on an empty crop and never mixed with food or water. Can you let me know your thoughts on this?
> I wonder if Xena is suffering with Canker too. I've just got the prescription for the new antibiotic so I should be able to pick up tomorrow (today is Ephinany so everything is closed!). Keep me posted on your progress. I just gave Xena a bath for the first time in ages - she was so dirty on her belly and especially towards her tail. She's clean and fluffy and dry now, also giving her leg a break from the bandage until my husband gets home to help me reapply it. Her leg is very dry so was thinking of using a little olive oil on them before I bandage them up.... do you think this would be okay?


 Hi there I sometimes use Olive oil on Peters feet and legs no problem just be careful not to get it on her feathers A couple of people on the forum recommended this to me sometime ago works a treat .


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The Nystatin can be given as a precaution to prevent yeast and to keep things moving in the crop. Someone that does rescue and raised a lot of babies told me once that she always add a bit of Medistatin (powdered Nystatin for pigeons) to the handraising formula.

I'm also sure I've read somewhere that the handraising formula can cause yeast because of the high sugar content. Mine has been on formula and peas for 3 months now. Problem is, that unless you see actual canker or yeast in the mouth and it's further down in the crop, it's difficult to distinguish what you are dealing with. If yeast is confirmed, then one needs to give Nystatin on an empty crop.


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## Tithi4120 (Oct 28, 2020)

How’s Xena doing? We are all eagerly waiting


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena has finally stopped gagging and vomiting, I think it’s a combination of the things I implemented which reduced the gagging and vomiting to almost never (flushing the esophagus with water before and after formula, room temp formula not warm and 10ml only at a time) and then since she’s been on the new medication it’s stopped 100%!
Her leg is sadly very strangely positioned and swollen, she had an X-ray and it’s not broken, so I’m just keeping it bandaged and hoping time will help her!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Well, Xena is making progress! Her leg is less swollen (although it’s still rather swollen none the less)... it’s still very strangely positioned but it’s not bleeding at all anymore. I’ve managed to bandage the “thumb” back to the natural position, and I think the toes are regaining some movement, let’s see!
As for her gagging/vomiting- I think it’s been at least 5 days or maybe more that she hasn’t gagged or vomited at all! Hoorah! And today, I managed to feed her without the water before and after. These are pretty big milestones! I’m gonna give her a week or so to make sure she’s stable, and plan to give her soft solids next week (peas, formula balls etc) and see how it goes! 
she’s obviously being a sweetheart, besides her foot and feeding.... I’ve noticed she’s losing some bulk on her face on the side she’s blind (if I look at her straight on, that side is noticeably slimmer).. but she seems to be coping without the use of both eyes!

just in love with my little pal! 🥰


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Well, Xena is making progress! Her leg is less swollen (although it’s still rather swollen none the less)... it’s still very strangely positioned but it’s not bleeding at all anymore. I’ve managed to bandage the “thumb” back to the natural position, and I think the toes are regaining some movement, let’s see!
> As for her gagging/vomiting- I think it’s been at least 5 days or maybe more that she hasn’t gagged or vomited at all! Hoorah! And today, I managed to feed her without the water before and after. These are pretty big milestones! I’m gonna give her a week or so to make sure she’s stable, and plan to give her soft solids next week (peas, formula balls etc) and see how it goes!
> she’s obviously being a sweetheart, besides her foot and feeding.... I’ve noticed she’s losing some bulk on her face on the side she’s blind (if I look at her straight on, that side is noticeably slimmer).. but she seems to be coping without the use of both eyes!
> 
> just in love with my little pal! 🥰


Awww sweet little darling sooo happy she's making progress xoxo


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Thesis79 said:


> Awww sweet little darling sooo happy she's making progress xoxo


 I’m hoping that her swelling goes down and her leg goes back to the natural position but I see pigeons with much worse issues on legs and feet so I think worst case, she’ll be fine with a wonky ankle! 
we saw Cher on our morning walk today, she’a fully integrated with the flock now! 🥰


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Update on Xena - she’s doing great! The leg is no longer swollen, though the foot is absolutely misshapen and there is no grip in her toes at all. I’m off to the vets next week to do another X-ray and talk about possible surgery to correct the leg, if needed. Fingers crossed!
As for everything else? She’s just being adorable of course! Last night she woke us up, randomly in the night with a giant pigeon coo! 😂 she looked at us and then went back to sleep, as per picture! She’s quite the character!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96866
> 
> Update on Xena - she’s doing great! The leg is no longer swollen, though the foot is absolutely misshapen and there is no grip in her toes at all. I’m off to the vets next week to do another X-ray and talk about possible surgery to correct the leg, if needed. Fingers crossed!
> As for everything else? She’s just being adorable of course! Last night she woke us up, randomly in the night with a giant pigeon coo! 😂 she looked at us and then went back to sleep, as per picture! She’s quite the character!


I'm sooo happy for her I was wondering about her recently sooo happy she's doing amazing xoxo


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Xena saw the avian vet again today, and this is his update! He basically said the same infection which made her blind in one eye, also caused the infection in her joints. Sadly, the infection was quite severe so the bone has now grown incorrectly (bigger than it should be and in the wrong direction) and now due to the difficulties the joint is fused and the claws are now immobile on that side. He said that the strange angle might cause the skin to callous as it grows more (which will just mean a wonky leg) or it might cause problems with broken skin/lesions and infections, in which case he will consider amputating the foot or the leg. But as she’s so young he said not to worry for a few months and just monitor her for now. He also wants me to encourage her to walk and fly/flap more, and lose a little weight! She’s 450g which is not easy for her wonky leg. All in all I’m happy! She is now off the antibiotics as the infection is clear, and as she’s not yet eating alone it will be easy to help her lose weight!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Xena saw the avian vet again today, and this is his update! He basically said the same infection which made her blind in one eye, also caused the infection in her joints. Sadly, the infection was quite severe so the bone has now grown incorrectly (bigger than it should be and in the wrong direction) and now due to the difficulties the joint is fused and the claws are now immobile on that side. He said that the strange angle might cause the skin to callous as it grows more (which will just mean a wonky leg) or it might cause problems with broken skin/lesions and infections, in which case he will consider amputating the foot or the leg. But as she’s so young he said not to worry for a few months and just monitor her for now. He also wants me to encourage her to walk and fly/flap more, and lose a little weight! She’s 450g which is not easy for her wonky leg. All in all I’m happy! She is now off the antibiotics as the infection is clear, and as she’s not yet eating alone it will be easy to help her lose weight!


Awww little pigeon steps she's come sooo far and is doing sooo amazing


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor baby. I'm just glad you have a good vet helping you and Xena with all these issues.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

does anyone else have a pidge who stretches like this? She stays this way for up to 3 minutes at a time, just casually hanging around with a wing up!! 😂I’m not concerned about it, just curious!
Also, she’s flying more and more.... she isn’t really able to land sadly and keeps bashing into things so I’m putting her on cage arrest most of the day. She tries to fly high and then falls down, the last thing i want her to do is break a leg or wing! I came back from putting laundry away this week in the bedrooms to find her gone from her cage (she hangs out on top) and my dogs also gone. As I peek in the kitchen? There she is on the floor, my dog Nemo keeping a close eye on her! Our other dog Floyd soon joined the watch!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Pigeons hold the wings like that when they get exposed to sunlight. It's like they are trying to get the maximum exposure and absorb as much sunlight as they can. She is looking good.


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96972
> 
> does anyone else have a pidge who stretches like this? She stays this way for up to 3 minutes at a time, just casually hanging around with a wing up!! 😂I’m not concerned about it, just curious!
> Also, she’s flying more and more.... she isn’t really able to land sadly and keeps bashing into things so I’m putting her on cage arrest most of the day. She tries to fly high and then falls down, the last thing i want her to do is break a leg or wing! I came back from putting laundry away this week in the bedrooms to find her gone from her cage (she hangs out on top) and my dogs also gone. As I peek in the kitchen? There she is on the floor, my dog Nemo keeping a close eye on her! Our other dog Floyd soon joined the watch!
> ...


Awww those pictures are precious. The dogs have bonded with her sooo sweet. I hand raised a pidge 20yrs ago and he was the animal of the house lol the cat merely wen to introduce himself and he got shown who was boss lol and as for the dog well we had a pitbull cross and he would let the bird piggy back a ride on his back across the backyard. We used to find cheep sun bathing on the deck enjoying the sun on sunny days. When everyone wanted in they would all line up behind the bird it was the cutest thing


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96972
> 
> does anyone else have a pidge who stretches like this? She stays this way for up to 3 minutes at a time, just casually hanging around with a wing up!! 😂I’m not concerned about it, just curious!
> Also, she’s flying more and more.... she isn’t really able to land sadly and keeps bashing into things so I’m putting her on cage arrest most of the day. She tries to fly high and then falls down, the last thing i want her to do is break a leg or wing! I came back from putting laundry away this week in the bedrooms to find her gone from her cage (she hangs out on top) and my dogs also gone. As I peek in the kitchen? There she is on the floor, my dog Nemo keeping a close eye on her! Our other dog Floyd soon joined the watch!
> ...


 How wonderful beautiful pictures she's looking really good 🙂


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very happy to see that Xena is doing better, Joy 😊 !

Lovely pics 😍! Even my beloved cat Kira loved to spend time with my birds. When she died, for a while my blind pigeon Geordi did not want to stay on the sofa because Kira was not there.

My birds stretch the wing like that even when they take a bath or.... also when they take a "virtual bath". Sometimes when one of my birds is taking a bath into the water bowl and splashes water everywhere, another bird sits next to the bowl and stretches the wing like that...virtual bath lol 😅.
I noticed that in the pic Xena is sitting next to a cup of water. Probably she was taking too a "virtual bath" 😉. The cup was too small for a "real bath". Maybe she also splashed some water with her beak.

Lol years ago we had a water leak in the apartment, it literally rained from the ceiling so I had to put a bucket. Well, my pigeon Marshall often tried to perch on it to take a shower... It was a funny scene because he lifted/stretched his wings under "the rain" (you know, like the feral pigeons on street lamps while it's raining) ... Of course, I had to chase him away because the water was not exactly clean 😅...

Give a cuddle to Xena from me 🤗.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96972
> 
> does anyone else have a pidge who stretches like this? She stays this way for up to 3 minutes at a time, just casually hanging around with a wing up!! 😂I’m not concerned about it, just curious!
> Also, she’s flying more and more.... she isn’t really able to land sadly and keeps bashing into things so I’m putting her on cage arrest most of the day. She tries to fly high and then falls down, the last thing i want her to do is break a leg or wing! I came back from putting laundry away this week in the bedrooms to find her gone from her cage (she hangs out on top) and my dogs also gone. As I peek in the kitchen? There she is on the floor, my dog Nemo keeping a close eye on her! Our other dog Floyd soon joined the watch!
> ...


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 96972
> 
> does anyone else have a pidge who stretches like this? She stays this way for up to 3 minutes at a time, just casually hanging around with a wing up!! 😂I’m not concerned about it, just curious!
> Also, she’s flying more and more.... she isn’t really able to land sadly and keeps bashing into things so I’m putting her on cage arrest most of the day. She tries to fly high and then falls down, the last thing i want her to do is break a leg or wing! I came back from putting laundry away this week in the bedrooms to find her gone from her cage (she hangs out on top) and my dogs also gone. As I peek in the kitchen? There she is on the floor, my dog Nemo keeping a close eye on her! Our other dog Floyd soon joined the watch!
> ...


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Pigeons hold the wings like that when they get exposed to sunlight. It's like they are trying to get the maximum exposure and absorb as much sunlight as they can. She is looking good.


It’s funny because there was certainly no sunshine in there! But the window is quite bright at that time of day, even in the cold grey February days! It’s so sweet and like to see her looking so pretty and content! How’s your little one? Did she start eating yet? Xena isn’t eating but she tolerates seeds and leaves (lettuce, kale, rocket etc) all day long! So I’m just hopeful that means soon she’s gonna start eating!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> How wonderful beautiful pictures she's looking really good 🙂


She’s doing so good, I’m constantly amazed when I look back at old pictures!


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## Tithi4120 (Oct 28, 2020)

Colombina said:


> I'm very happy to see that Xena is doing better, Joy 😊 !
> 
> Lovely pics 😍! Even my beloved cat Kira loved to spend time with my birds. When she died, for a while my blind pigeon Geordi did not want to stay on the sofa because Kira was not there.
> 
> ...




I second that. That’s exactly what my pigie does when she sees water or even hear water splash sound. This is a sign of good health. I’m happy that Xena feels better


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Colombina said:


> I'm very happy to see that Xena is doing better, Joy 😊 !
> 
> Lovely pics 😍! Even my beloved cat Kira loved to spend time with my birds. When she died, for a while my blind pigeon Geordi did not want to stay on the sofa because Kira was not there.
> 
> ...


That makes sense @Colombina because she has reactions to water, even though she doesn’t touch it! For example, that water was next to her all day, and Xena shakes her head as if she’s drank (she doesn’t) so I wonder if she had phantom bath feelings! The last time she put her beak near water was September, even since then she’s avoided it like the plague, the bowl you see in the pic she likes to sit next to for some reason but she won’t touch it!

those pictures are adorable! People are so shocked when they see unlikely pairings, but for me it just shows how amazing animals are! I think it’s even more unusual for a bird to allow a pigeon to snuggle up, when we imagine they should want to eat them!

aren’t we lucky!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I take back that previous message (which I typed earlier but hadn’t posted)..... would you believe she was just panting a little bit (it’s hot in here) and I offered her water, tipped her head towards it and she dunked and gulped!!! A good 3 seconds or so of drinking alone! For the first time in 5 months!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very glad to hear that yesterday she drank alone, Joy! That's a good sign 😊!

Yes, I really think that she uses to sit next to the cup of water because she loves taking "virtual" baths! Pigeons love sooo much bathing so that's a good sign too. 

I'm glad to hear that you liked my pics!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Some recent pics of Xena, she loves this little kitten house, I think it’s easier for her to perch on because it’s so soft! Her leg is still much the same, it’s for sure fused at the wrong angle but she seems to get around with it. She mainly perches and preens or sleeps, she likes playing with seeds and she attempts to fly a few times a day, almost always crash landing into a wall or mirror. She doesn’t fly very fast so hasn’t hurt herself yet, and hope that continues. She doesn’t really eat or drink alone - she’s had water several times but never any seeds or veg. She will tolerate me feeding them to her though, so I’ll continue. She is a rather territorial girl these days, lots of pecks and wingslaps if my hands get near her. She doesn’t mind my face though! (If I lean in with my fave she is fine). She loves checking out herself in the mirror too, which is adorable!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Sweet Xena is living like a little princess! She deserves this after all she has been through.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> Sweet Xena is living like a little princess! She deserves this after all she has been through.


I suppose its an unexpected benefit of the last years restrictions? I’ve had so much time to dedicate to her getting better!! She is such a little angel! As she’s getting older and more pigeon-like I’m enjoying the transformation!! She stays with me and the dogs all the time, never alone for longer than a few hours at the most when i go to the shops for example. It’s quite sweet that at nighttime i put her blanket over the cage and she seems to have learnt that it means bedtime and she takes herself to the corner of her cage that she sleeps in, and she nestles up and shuts her eyes! I’m constantly amazed how clever she is!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> I suppose its an unexpected benefit of the last years restrictions? I’ve had so much time to dedicate to her getting better!! She is such a little angel! As she’s getting older and more pigeon-like I’m enjoying the transformation!! She stays with me and the dogs all the time, never alone for longer than a few hours at the most when i go to the shops for example. It’s quite sweet that at nighttime i put her blanket over the cage and she seems to have learnt that it means bedtime and she takes herself to the corner of her cage that she sleeps in, and she nestles up and shuts her eyes! I’m constantly amazed how clever she is!


My older pigeon Cheep-Cheep did that sleep routine too in fact if he was on the main level of the house with us someone would say "Cheep-Cheep go to your bed" and with a watchful eye of someone he would hop down each step to the basement where his set up was. Xena is soooo sweet


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> I suppose its an unexpected benefit of the last years restrictions? I’ve had so much time to dedicate to her getting better!! She is such a little angel! As she’s getting older and more pigeon-like I’m enjoying the transformation!! She stays with me and the dogs all the time, never alone for longer than a few hours at the most when i go to the shops for example. It’s quite sweet that at nighttime i put her blanket over the cage and she seems to have learnt that it means bedtime and she takes herself to the corner of her cage that she sleeps in, and she nestles up and shuts her eyes! I’m constantly amazed how clever she is!


Hi there how is Little Xena getting on ? we haven’t had an update for a little while now hope all is good


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hello Spencer! She’s doing so well! She still doesn’t eat alone, but drinks alone and loves to give herself a little shower! Do you have Instagram? I have a henna account @mehndikajoeyhenna and I have 2 story highlights (Xena #1 and #2) where there are plenty of pictures and videos regularly! But for now she is no longer gagging or vomiting, she tolerates being fed peas and seeds and raspberries and arugula and seems to be in good health! She bashed her head last week on the ceiling when she flew and lost some feathers, but apart from that she’s doing well with flying around the living room and kitchen once or twice a day! I’ll post some pics I took today. She’s so cute!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

The last pic shows you how she sometimes straddles the edge of her nest to give her bad leg a rest, it just hangs down when she does that!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 97225
> View attachment 97226
> View attachment 97227
> 
> The last pic shows you how she sometimes straddles the edge of her nest to give her bad leg a rest, it just hangs down when she does that!


Wow she’s looking fantastic I have 4 wood Pigeons that come to my garden every morning to mop up Peters leftover seed from the night before always makes me think of how your little one is getting on 🙂👍🏻


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 97225
> View attachment 97226
> View attachment 97227
> 
> The last pic shows you how she sometimes straddles the edge of her nest to give her bad leg a rest, it just hangs down when she does that!


I love the pictures Xena looks awesome she's sooo cute


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

These 2 are ever so bonded these days - Xena is doing so well but still won’t or can’t eat alone. I’m not sure if anything can be done to encourage her, or perhaps I just need to wait for her to feel able!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi Friends! Well, from what I can tell Xena thinks she’s a dog, or thinks the dogs are pigeons! She seems to have chosen Floyd (the grey dog) as her mate/BFF and she loves to be with him! She preens his feet and ears and face and Floyd doesn’t really react at all! It’s rather adorable! 
she’s sadly not eating independently yet, but does drink water alone now. I guess I’ll just have to be patient with the food. She plays with her seeds hours and hours each day but just can’t seem to figure out how to swallow - she just chatters and drops them.
she’s on 75% solid food now each day. Seeds and fruits/veggies. She tolerates this and I just give her formula before bed for her supplements and she what not. 
hope everyone’s okay!


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 97395
> View attachment 97396
> View attachment 97397
> 
> ...


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 97395
> View attachment 97396
> View attachment 97397
> 
> ...


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 97395
> View attachment 97396
> View attachment 97397
> 
> ...


👍🏻🙂


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 97395
> View attachment 97396
> View attachment 97397
> 
> ...


👍🏻🙂


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

So sweet!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

__
http://instagr.am/p/CNzUZsACpf0/


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I posted Xena and floyd on my Instagram, as you can see from this video, Xena is firmly a part of the crew! X


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

I got these awesome cat window perches online, and now Xena sits by the window all day, preening and enjoying herself!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Glad to hear she is doing well! How old is she now?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

More than 8 months... starting to think she’s not a she! I should get her sexed really but finding a lab here that will sex a woodie is hard!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

What is her/his behaviour in front of a mirror? A male will often act aggressive towards his own image, a female won't. Although one can't rely on this. Has she got a nest?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Marina B said:


> What is her/his behaviour in front of a mirror? A male will often act aggressive towards his own image, a female won't. Although one can't rely on this. Has she got a nest?


she isn’t interested in building a nest - she just has her cat window bed perches and sometimes she’ll snuggle with us .... she lays down a lot because of her wonky leg. She doesn’t attack the mirror, and doesn’t make pigeon noises, last time we heard her make the cooo coo coo co co noise was january! (A total of 4 times I think in December and January)... i think she thinks she’s a dog! At night she snuggles with her lion, but prefers to be on her brick than in the nest she has at the back of the cage, sometimes she will go back there when she wakes up?


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

This is the spot she lives in her cage at night (with her lion) 









If the dogs sleep on the couch in the day she likes to be with them on her pillow and towel... 









This is her window perch, when she’s tired (and wants to drop her wings) she will snuggle in the middle like this, but she typically perches on the edge.








This is a little rolling trolly, she sometimes snuggles in the corner of it. (Kinda like a nest?) 









And her final spot to rest is on me. Usually first thing in the morning or late at night. She’ll nap like this for an hour or Two.
So the answer really is she doesn’t have a nest..... not a consistent one anyways.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> View attachment 97641
> 
> This is the spot she lives in her cage at night (with her lion)
> 
> ...


Hi there just wondering how your little one is getting on not heard anything for awhile hope all is okay


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Hi there just wondering how your little one is getting on not heard anything for awhile hope all is okay


hiya!
She’s doing sooooooo well! In the last few months she’s taught herself how to eat (finally) and I never have to supplement with hand feeding or formula so that’s rather brilliant! I post about her regularly on Instagram (@plantsandpigeons) which is where you can see all the updates!


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Wow what a big beautiful girl she is now stunning when I think back to what a terrible state she was in to how she is now you really have worked wonders with this beautiful bird 🙂👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> Wow what a big beautiful girl she is now stunning when I think back to what a terrible state she was in to how she is now you really have worked wonders with this beautiful bird 🙂👍🏻


Agreed!!!! So many people think they are different pigeons! Glad I’ve documented her year, she’s such a fighter and so beautiful now!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi friends! I can’t figure out how to upload a video… but this is the link to the video on Instagram. Xena just started making noises back to us! Anyone know if this is typical male or female behavior? 


__
http://instagr.am/p/CTpuuwfl-k7/


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> Hi friends! I can’t figure out how to upload a video… but this is the link to the video on Instagram. Xena just started making noises back to us! Anyone know if this is typical male or female behavior?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CTpuuwfl-k7/


I think you might find this a distinct possibility that she is a he but how cute I just love seeing the updates on your wonderful little Woody please keep them coming 🙂


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Spencer said:


> I think you might find this a distinct possibility that she is a he but how cute I just love seeing the updates on your wonderful little Woody please keep them coming 🙂


Well i always knew it was possible, but really wanna know definitively! I think i need to have her secretly tested


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Turned into a beauty. Both sexes make that sound. Provide him/her with a nest. When eggs get laid, then you will know for sure.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

It’s been some time since I last updated. Thought I would check in and say hi! 

Xena is officially a “she”. I had her tested and it was confirmed! She hasn’t laid any eggs and she is at least 1 year and 5 months old, so my guess is perhaps her reproductive system got damaged when she was sick? Anyway she is in good health and my avian vet didn’t think this was a huge concern. 

As far as Xena? She flies. She waddles/limps around. She coos. She loves peas. She is very social. She loves the dogs. She preens my eyebrows and my husbands head. She is really a little honey pie! 

Some recent pics!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

She is really gorgeous! I'm glad she is a female, they are more gentle. I hope she has a long and happy life with you.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks so much for the update! 

She is beautiful, her eyes are so nice. 

It's great to see her so happy and healthy 😊. 

Give her a big cuddle from me 🤗.


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## Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

Joeyspesh said:


> It’s been some time since I last updated. Thought I would check in and say hi!
> 
> Xena is officially a “she”. I had her tested and it was confirmed! She hasn’t laid any eggs and she is at least 1 year and 5 months old, so my guess is perhaps her reproductive system got damaged when she was sick? Anyway she is in good health and my avian vet didn’t think this was a huge concern.
> 
> ...


So wonderful to see that she’s doing really well really heartwarming great job👍🏻


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

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Thanks friends! She really is thriving! Here she is chatting to me.


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

just a few recent pictures of Xena x


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)




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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for sharing 😊!


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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)




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## Joeyspesh (Sep 16, 2020)

Hi Friends! Xena is happy and thriving, I’m not on here much, we have since adopted a disabled fantail pigeon (Bruna)… who LOVES Xena, but sadly she does not feel the same! 😂 my instagram has plenty of content about them if you’re interested. @plantsandpigeons is the username! Hope you’re all well, can’t believe she’s the same pigeon!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Glad to hear she is doing well. Give them time, Xena has been alone for quite some time and is probably viewing the newcomer as an intruder.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi Joeyspesh! Glad to see you back on the forum and to see Xena! 
It's great to hear that you adopted a disabled pigeon!


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