# Feral Pigeon from a cave



## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello everyone

I recently (2 weeks) found a pigeon baby (some 10-15 days old) in a cave, it probably fell from it's nest. Since it was impossible to return it to the nest (being 20-30 m above water on the cave wall, etc.), I decided to take care of it myself. It is fairly grown now, feeding it with seeds and water.

My questions are:
1. After feeding/drinking the pigeon keeps tweeting and tweeting..... Does it need some additional stuff, or is this normal?
2. What about learning to fly? What should I do to make it possible?
3. Releasing back to the cave: I thought that after learning to fly, i will take it bck to the cave, to release it into the flock. Any ideas how to make it right?

Thanks for reading and possible answers.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

So the pigeon is now about 25 - 30 days old?

How much are you feeding it, how many times a day - or is it feeding itself on seeds? If you are still giving it the food, it needs to be fed when its crop is empty.

Young pigeons may squeak because they need more food, but they may also squeak just because they see the human they treat as a 'parent'.

When they are ready, they will fly without needing to be helped or taught. At first they may just exercise their wings - kinda bounce up and down while flapping their wings a lot. Then, they start to fly short distances, often just at a low level, and finally have the power to take off and land on higher places.

Wait till he's eating plenty by himself, and flying, then we can look at how to re-introduce him into his own world.


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello
Yes, i think it is around 25-30 days old (or older). At first I needed to hand feed it, but for about a week it is feeding itself, if i put seeds on the table. However, I do not know the quantity, that I should make available for self feeding.
Thx for the reply.

Sz


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Can this little guy fly yet? Do you have a kitchen scale you could weigh him on, as a weight will give us a better idea of his general well being. A young, growing pigeon like this needs a lot more food than most people realize, as John asked how much has he been eating/you been feeding? Can you post a photo of him? There is a chance he can be reintegrated back to the wild through what is called a soft release program, you will not just be able to take him out and let him go, as chances are lower he will do well doing that kind of release.

Karyn


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello Dobato

I tossed it up in the air a little a few days ago, to see if the wings are OK. They are. However, landing and maneuvering was funny/not adequate, so probably more to learn about flying.

Here is the evolution/growth in three pictures, with dates:

https://picasaweb.google.com/szilardbux/SamuelAlbert?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCJT37rbeuJnE1wE&feat=directlink

Szilard


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cavepigeon, for some reason, I am having a problem identifying this little guy's origin, when I looked at the first photo, I thought he looked more like a wild Dove (partly because of his coloring), than a pigeon, then in the other photos he definitely appears to look more like a pigeon. Where there other pigeons around that you could see above where you found him?

Karyn


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Well, yes, there were other pigeons around. I found him inside a cave, that has a 30 m high ceiling, and the nests are probably high up there.
But I'm not familiar with the difference between a dove and a pigeon, maybe because I'm not a native English speaker (actually Hungarian, from Transylvania). Can you explain?

Anyway, does the little guy look well fed on the photos? 

Szilard


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cavepigeon said:


> Well, yes, there were other pigeons around. I found him inside a cave, that has a 30 m high ceiling, and the nests are probably high up there.
> But I'm not familiar with the difference between a dove and a pigeon, maybe because I'm not a native English speaker (actually Hungarian, from Transylvania). Can you explain?
> 
> Anyway, does the little guy look well fed on the photos?
> ...


Pigeons and Doves belong to the same family of birds called Columbiformes and are very closely related, in fact pigeons are referred to sometimes as Rock Doves, but when grown a generally a smaller bird with less variety in the coloring of their feathers, depend on species, but when very young they can look very alike. With coloring your little guy had and the look of his slim beak, in the first photo, I thought, kind of looks like it may be a Dove, but in the others I thought, no, looks like a pigeon.

What we want to do for you little guy, from now and before he can start to really fly (enough to get away from you and you must test this every day inside you before allowing him time with a flock, you have to make sure to can not fly up to get any real hight, when he is able to fly up, no more mingling), is take him to a place where other wild pigeons gather everyday, put down some seed for the adults and let him mingle with these birds. You will stand back a little ways and observe that no one picks on him on any way. Doing this, letting him peck and hunt seeds with them will help him learn very important social skills and will help imprint on him he is a pigeon. Also, you will at the end of each session suddenly startle the birds so they suddenly take off, so he can be imprinted on what the "flock" does when there is danger.

This can only be done for a very short time between when he can kind of get around, peck at food and self feed, but is not able to fly, as we do not want to lose him, as when he start to be able to fly enough to get away from you, he will still be too young to care fully for himself, he will still need a fews with you. Try and pick a local flock that looks like there may be someone who looks after them, meaning, many flocks of city pigeons have kind people who kind of make it their duty to put out some food out everyday for "their" birds. 

There will be some other things to do, but this is where you should get started.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have to disagree with you Dobato. This should only be done with the young one in a cage. It is just as effective, but this way you do not run the risk of the baby suddenly finding his wings and flying up high where he can't be reached. One day they can't take off, then suddenly they are in the air, and this person can't possibly know when that will happen. If he were to fly up where he couldn't be reached, he still wouldn't be ready for release, and he just wouldn't make it. Always bring him to the flock in a cage. The cage can be set on the ground in the area where the pigeons will come down to eat. The young one can watch them from the safety of the cage. After doing this several times, and after the young one is flying well, and a bit stronger, and he is ready for release, then the cage door can be opened and he can be released to the flock. NEVER just let him out with the others before he is ready for release, as you would be taking a huge chance on losing him before he is ready. If that were to happen, his chances of survival would be slim. And even if you think that he can't fly yet, remember that all of a sudden they do, and you cannot see that coming.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jay, if you read my post you will see I clearly state that the flying ability has to be tested each time this little guy is to mingle, inside, if he can fly up with any ability, mingling has to stop. IMO, there is a difference of the experience for him, having him in a cage, and not actually being able to freely socialize in among them and hunt and peck, and also feel how they feel when startled, even if it's just a for few outings. After he was able to start to get any lift, I was going to suggest using cage, as you suggested, I guess we'll just have to disagree on this.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dobato, if you read mine, then maybe you read the part about how they suddenly seem to find their wings. It doesn't take much for them to be able to get up somewhere out of reach. Testing each time isn't a safe idea, as one minute he won't have much ability, and the next, he will. You are also putting the decision of the pigeons ability on someone else. Everyone sees things differently. One might feel that he isn't ready, while another person will see that he is. If you want to keep him safe, then keep him in the cage. Just not worth taking the chance.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jay, if that last photo was taken within the last day, I'll bet you dollars to donuts, this guy certainly has a week where he is not flying up anywhere.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Karen, you cannot possibly be sure of his flying abilities. Or when they will change. That is why most of us always advise to keep the bird in a cage while doing this. Better to be safe than sorry. Just not worth risking his life. I have also had young birds who took their time in learning to fly, and others who greatly surprised me, when they were up and taking off suddenly. Just not worth it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jay, the points you make are valid points, and I certainly am not against using a cage, in fact that was going to be part of my recommendations a little later, as mentioned. I am just saying there is a narrow window of a few days, right now, that he can mingle/socialize unimpeded, before having to go into the cage to mingle/socialize.

Karyn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay...I agree with you. After rescue/ rehab of pigeons these past 25 years, I had to learn the hard way. SZ...I would like to spare you tradegy after all your kindness and hard work. Please don't risk taking the baby out, at this point, unless in a cage.

Worth mentioning...my observation, is that pigeons do have a pecking order and the flock will go after a new bird. With the baby in a cage, they will be able to look but not touch and when the time comes, they will be used to your rescue and all the pecking sutff can be avoided.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Jay...I agree with you. After rescue/ rehab of pigeons these past 25 years, I had to learn the hard way. SZ...I would like to spare you tradegy after all your kindness and hard work. Please don't risk taking the baby out, at this point, unless in a cage.
> 
> *Worth mentioning...my observation, is that pigeons do have a pecking order and the flock will go after a new bird. With the baby in a cage, they will be able to look but not touch and when the time comes, they will be used to your rescue and all the pecking sutff can be avoided.*





That's a very good point. One which I hadn't even thought of. They will go after new birds, and this one so young could get hurt. Wish I'd thought of that.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> That's a very good point. One which I hadn't even thought of. *They will go after new birds, and this one so young could get hurt.* Wish I'd thought of that.




Yes. I've noticed adult birds peck at and try to drive a way, youngsters or new birds, at the feral flock I feed on the weekends.
I've noticed similar behavior when I introduce new pigeons to my pigeon room. The pigeons have taught me, that if the new bird is caged for a few days first, everyone can have a close look but not get close enough to peck. Once the bird is released into the room, the bird is thought of more as a homey.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You're right. Even in the loft, if for some reason a baby has to be taken out of the loft and hand reared, I can't just put them back in later on when they are ready to join the others. I have to introduce them slowly, otherwise the other birds will pick on them. Not only could they be injured, but it also has to be very frightening to the young one. Much better to let them get used to seeing each other first, so that it is not so much like a "new" bird coming in. A bird that young being let go into a flock would most likely be hassled by the larger birds. He normally wouldn't be out with the big guys at this age.


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello

I agree with the cage method, and I already built one. The older pigeons are feeding next to the cage with my bird (who also has seeds and water inside the cage), fighting sometimes, etc. The problem is that my bird seems to be afraid, and tries to get out, to get to me. Should I let is out, or should I let it get used to the presenece of other pigeons?

Thx

Szilard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Cavepigeon said:


> Hello
> 
> I agree with the cage method, and I already built one. The older pigeons are feeding next to the cage with my bird (who also has seeds and water inside the cage), fighting sometimes, etc. The problem is that my bird seems to be afraid, and tries to get out, to get to me.* Should I let is out, or should I let it get used to the presenece of other pigeons?
> *
> ...



If he is afraid of them, and wanting to get to you for comfort, then he is not ready to be released. He has to be comfortable with other pigeons, and responding to them, or it isn't going to work. Do you let them eat for a while, then startle them a bit to make them fly up for safer ground? And does your bird try to take off with them? This is something he needs to learn to survive. If you feel that if he were released that he would run to you, instead of joining the flock, then he is not ready. 

How many times have you put him down to introduce to the others, and over how much time? He must be about what, 7 weeks now, I think. Not sure. Have you read the post about doing a soft release? The more ready he is, the more chance he has for survival. Unfortunately, some just bond too strongly with people, and can't be released. Then a home would need to be found for them, as they wouldn't survive in the wild. He must be comfortable with the other birds around him before being released. Otherwise, he isn't going to try to join them. He won't make it on his own.


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Yes, he is about 6-7 weeks old.
I do not know yet which type of reaction he has (fear or need for comfort), but i'm using the cage only since 3 days. Maybe that is too short, and results will come in time.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

It will probably take a bit longer, especially as he's a lone bird.
Another thing I have found that can help "acclimatise" him to other birds is if you can set his cage near a window, where he can see out and even see other birds flying about. That way, he learns to know that there is a bigger world outside of his current situation, and he sees others like himself rather than just us humans. Then when you take him to eat with others he may not be so afraid.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

have you thought of keeping him?.. with his red color he really does look domestic.. not your typical long time bred lineage blue bar feral. he certainaly could be a pet easily if you wanted him to be.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He really hasn't been around other pigeons for most of his growing up time. He probably doesn't see himself as one of them. That's when finding a rehabber comes in handy. They would keep him with others like him, and release them all together. It is hard when you have only one, as if people are all he knows, then he probably doesn't even know he's a pigeon. That could be a problem in releasing him. It may take a while, and then if he doesn't start to identify himself as a pigeon, releasing will not work for this guy. You would have to find him a home. Maybe someone with other pigeons.


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello there

Some people say that my bird looks thin, not eating enough, etc. I have uploaded some new photos about my bird here, what do you think?

https://picasaweb.google.com/szilardbux/SamuelAlbert?authuser=0&feat=directlink

I have some questions. Well, the bird feeds itself, picking up seeds, drinking on its own since more than a month, etc. But since two days it keeps tweeting and tweeting and tweeting, even if there is a lot of food and water at arms (wings) length. What should I do? Does it need other food than seeds? What can I give to him?

Secondly, I am considering to keep him, if releasing should be dangerous, and I thought of a cage outside my balcony. Will it have problems in winter? I have read somewhere that pigeons do not have problems with low temperatures (it can get to -15-20 Celsius here), if they are sheltered from wind. Is this true?

The other pigeons seem to react to my bird, sitting long outside it's cage, but I am not sure whether my bird also reacts or not. Anyway, I keep on trying.

Thanks for any suggestions

Szilard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Did you read the info on here about doing a soft release? It explains what to look for to see if he is ready for release.
If you decide to keep him, is there no way you can keep him inside? He would need a couple hours of exercise time daily to get out of the cage and fly around. Pretty little bird.


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Yes, i have read about soft release, and i'm trying to do that.
Keeping him indoor would be difficult (not my own house), and the problem is that i usually go away to work from the city during the week. I took him with me until now, but i do not think that this is a long term solution.

Sz


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ah yes, quite a problem there. You couldn't very well leave him alone all week in a cage. 
How does he act toward the other pigeons now? When they take off, does he try to take off with them from his cage?


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello Forum

I need your opinion again, if you have time..

Well, you see my bird in the photos from this link:
https://picasaweb.google.com/szilardbux/SamuelAlbert?authuser=0&feat=directlink

Does it seem small, underdeveloped, etc?

I ask this question because I'm facing a decision. In the meanwhile I have found a possible home for my bird, where it could spend the winter indoors (in my parents house).

But I noticed that my bird here seems to prefer to fly to the cage, that stands at the window, and looks outside? Does it want to go? Sometimes other pigeons just sit at the window and wait. Do they want my bird among them?

So, my question is, should I let my bird go and take the chance of survival, or should i wait for the next summer and do the release/soft release than? 

Again, it is possible to keep the bird indoors for the winter, feed it properly, etc. But if it wants to go, i don't want to keep him/her.....

Please, give your advice.

Thanks

Szilard


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Szilard, even without knowing a lot about pigeons, your eye is good. He does not look in the condition that I would be advising you to let him go. Is it possible to get a weight on him and can you go over the amount of food he eats each day and how he is eating it?

It's natural for them to go to the window, my pigeons are pets, many hand raised from babies, and they like to sit by the window and watch the world outside, this does not mean they want to live there, they just find things outside interesting to watch. Going to your parents may be the best idea for him, as from your photos he is obviously human bonded, without a flock for support he will probably not make it and even if there was a flock it would have to be a flock that someone looks after. Meaning there are people that feed "their" wild pigeons each day, this is very important for this kind of bird to have food provided each day while making the transition to being wild again and learning to find food on his own. Finally, what you first mentioned, he is in not in the kind of body, or feather shape, to do well on his own, if you let him go right now, IMO, he would not make it.

Also, not sure what's around you, but be very careful about taking him out like you show in the photos, as if he gets a fright or a strong gust of wind, he may get to a place you can not retrieve him from, and this would be very bad if this were to happen.

Karyn


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Thanks Karyn

I do not have the means to measure it's weight, but if you could suggest me other, better food, than seeds, it will be ok.

Indoor wintering and summer soft release shall it be. Until than fitness, food, indoor flight lessons (pretty good already), etc...

Szilard


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Knowing a weight is important because it gives us an immediate snap shot of just where they are at in body mass development, knowing this points to the kind of general condition they are in. A few ideas about getting a weight for him would be to ask the people you know if they have a small kitchen scale you could borrow, friends, family and neighbors may have one, you never know. You could also make a simple balance measure, 1 meter stick, tied in the middle, place your little guy in a small cloth bag, attached to one end, then use food items you know the weight of, feel to be around his weight, placed in a bag at the other end, to counter balance out his weight. While no where near exact as a scale, it would give us a rough idea where he is at.

Just so we can can go over things, please let us know in detail what he eats, how much he eats and if you could also post up a few photos of his fresh droppings it would be good.

Karyn


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

I uploaded a current photo, with seeds and droppings: 
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mkcuZ1uR1o4usi62J3dr8A?feat=directlink

Eats only the seeds visible, and drinks water.

Weighting him tomorrow.

Szilard


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

...actually droppings have a lighter color, this one was in the sun for 30 minutes, approx...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cavepigeon said:


> I uploaded a current photo, with seeds and droppings:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mkcuZ1uR1o4usi62J3dr8A?feat=directlink
> 
> Eats only the seeds visible, and drinks water.
> ...


Thanks, the photo was helpful. I would consider thees seeds to be a small seed mix (not really the best diet for a growing pigeon), do they have pigeon/dove mixes where you are?.. if not, you could get a Cockatiel mix as they generally contain safflower seeds and other larger seeds, which he needs to put on weight. If you do get a Cockatiel mix, before feeding, please post up a photo, as depending on who made it, there may be a few food items we may want to take out before giving it to him.

Glad you will be able to get a weight for him tomorrow.

Karyn


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Ok, i will buy some mixes that contain larger seeds, but i think he will not be able to peel them. Should i buy larger seeds with no peel? 
Pet stores here do not have a great diversity in bird food....

Thx for advices

Sz


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Cavepigeon said:


> Ok, i will buy some mixes that contain larger seeds, but i think he will not be able to peel them. Should i buy larger seeds with no peel?
> Pet stores here do not have a great diversity in bird food....
> 
> Thx for advices
> ...


pigeons do not "peel" or husk their seeds or grains like parrots do.. they swallow them whole. dried peas, small corn, safflower seeds, dehulled sunflower seeds..ect.. bascally you can feed him things in this link.

http://www.purgrain.com/Ingredients-2010.html


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cavepigeon said:


> Ok, i will buy some mixes that contain larger seeds, but i think he will not be able to peel them. Should i buy larger seeds with no peel?
> Pet stores here do not have a great diversity in bird food....
> 
> Thx for advices
> ...


Sz, pigeons do not "peel" their food, like Psittacines do (Parrots/Budgies) they eat their food whole and it is ground up in their stomach, this is why I mentioned we may want to take some food items out of a Cockatiel mix, as somethings would not be suitable for a pigeon to swallow. 

Here is a photo of a Cockatiel mix, it looks good, but we would take out the sunflower seeds and the rest your bird could eat. As I mentioned, some brands could have other things like coconut, dried fruit, peanuts and such, so it's important we remove the things he should not get, that's why I want you to post up a photo.

http://us.fotolia.com/id/1129732

Also, if they have it, it might be a good idea, based on his poor feather condition, to supplement him with some vitamins for birds, some like in the link below, it would be added to his water. Let us know what you got before giving:

http://www.petland.com/bird/health-care/ultra-care-vita-sol-multi-vitamin-1oz.html


Good luck,

Karyn


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## Cavepigeon (Aug 13, 2011)

Ok, i will try to find these types of mixes/vitamins in our shops and let you know.
Something like the Cockatiel mix I already seen, will buy, take out big seeds, feed him...

Thx

Sz


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cavepigeon said:


> Ok, i will try to find these types of mixes/vitamins in our shops and let you know.
> Something like the Cockatiel mix I already seen, will buy, take out big seeds, feed him...
> 
> Thx
> ...


Yes, you want to take out, coconut, dried fruit, peanuts, sunflower seeds, and so on...you want the mix to look like the photo I posted, minus the sunflower seeds, if you have any doubt, please post a photo for us to to have a quick look at.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Forgot to mention myself (but mentioned by Spirit Wings), once we take out things he should not get, we can add things he can get; like mung beans, brown lentils, split green peas and small pop corn (these should be easy for you to find):

http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/suma/suma-prepacks-organic-mung-beans-500g/

http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/suma/suma-prepacks-organic-brown-lentils/

http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/suma/suma-prepacks-organic-green-split-peas-500g/

http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/suma/suma-prepacks-organic-popcorn-500g/

Karyn


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