# Strange actions



## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

I work for a property management company and i see pigeons by the thousands, each day as i work on apartments. One day 2 weeks ago i found a pigeon on the ground walking that wouldn't fly. Knowing there was about 20 stray cats that live in the area i picked him and put him in a big box and brought him home to my wife who is a big animal person. We put him in a empty 20 gallon fish tank and got him some wild bird feed and a bowl of water. We tried to look him over to find the injury, but had no success. So over the last few weeks we have been letting him rest and have been trying to get him to fly. But it seems the bird might have some sort of brain damage. He roles his head up side down and jams it into the floor and trys to walk (often falling over). He eats and drink fine we would prefer to release him to the wild but we don't know what to do really. I don't want to release him if hes just gonna get eaten or killed somehow in a day.

Thanks Taylor


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it sounds like PMV, which is a virus. Hang on a sec and I'll fetch you a link. It's one of those things that has to run its course. It's possible that he could be releasable, just have to wait and see.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Go read this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12248.html

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Faultless said:


> I work for a property management company and i see pigeons by the thousands, each day as i work on apartments. One day 2 weeks ago i found a pigeon on the ground walking that wouldn't fly. Knowing there was about 20 stray cats that live in the area i picked him and put him in a big box and brought him home to my wife who is a big animal person. We put him in a empty 20 gallon fish tank and got him some wild bird feed and a bowl of water. We tried to look him over to find the injury, but had no success. So over the last few weeks we have been letting him rest and have been trying to get him to fly. But it seems the bird might have some sort of brain damage. He roles his head up side down and jams it into the floor and trys to walk (often falling over). He eats and drink fine we would prefer to release him to the wild but we don't know what to do really. I don't want to release him if hes just gonna get eaten or killed somehow in a day.
> 
> Thanks Taylor



Taylor, thanks for picking up this bird. It's days were numbered for sure. It sounds like the bird might have PMV (paramixovirus), or Salmonellosis......(that's not spelled right, sorry)...........can you tell us where you are? This bird needs to be put on medication and may never be able to be released.
Can you post pictures or better yet, videos? Other members who will be much more help than me, would be able to tell better about what's going on with pics/videos. 
Can you describe the poops?


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Can PMV pijes ever be released?

I have Daytona who had the same actions of a PMV pij.

Months later I introduced Darlington to Daytona and he seemed to mellow out and relax more. Like a year/years later I tried to introduce Daytona and Darlington into the bigger cage with my other pijes and Dayton just freaked.

It was like too much going on and it just stressed Daytona out. He started some movements I haven't seen from him in awhile. They went back in there own cage and seem content.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got three living out in the loft. Two of them I can't remember which ones they are, they're so normal. The worst of the three occasionally does funny stuff but I haven't even seen her do it for a few months come to think of it.

Pidgey


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## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area. We have other pets(no birds), is this virus contagious? Ill get pictures/movies posted ASAP. He has little bugs on him is there anything i can do about these?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

KIPPY said:


> *Can PMV pijes ever be released?*
> 
> I have Daytona who had the same actions of a PMV pij.
> 
> ...


It's not recommended. 
Your description of what happened to Daytona (& that was just being introduced to a larger cage) is a good example of why they shouldn't be released. 

Cindy


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> Two of them I can't remember which ones they are, they're so normal.


That's how Daytona was, finally acting normal for the longest time. When I tried to put him in the bigger cage he started having wierd actions again.

So if you have a feral that *had* PMV and was able to be released cause he is acting normal. You release him and you don't know what the stress factor may do to him later.

Just a thought.

They know the comforts of their own territory. You put them out in the wild where the have to do for themselves and compete with the other ferals. It could be too much.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Faultless said:


> I'm in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area. We have other pets(no birds), is this virus contagious? Ill get pictures/movies posted ASAP.
> 
> *He has little bugs on him is there anything i can do about these*?


You can get some Sevin powder, found in garden dept. in most stores.
There are also powders you can get at pet stores. I've never purchased any from the pet store so I have no idea what the names are. Others can help you with that.

Whatever you decide to use, make sure you protect his head so as not to get in the eyes, nose or mouth. 
Be sure to dust under the wings. 

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

KIPPY said:


> That's how Daytona was, finally acting normal for the longest time. When I tried to put him in the bigger cage he started having wierd actions again.
> 
> So if you have a feral that *had* PMV and was able to be released cause he is acting normal.
> * *You release him and you don't know what the stress factor may do to him later.*
> ...


* Exactly.

** Yes, it could. 
Stress can enhance PMV symptoms that are ongoing. 
If I'm not mistaken, those who have not shown any symptoms for quite some time can relapse if placed in a stressful enough situation. 

Cindy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Faultless said:


> I'm in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area. We have other pets(no birds), is this virus contagious? Ill get pictures/movies posted ASAP. He has little bugs on him is there anything i can do about these?


It is not contagious to you or your other animals. If there were other birds, then you would have to keep them separate. Just need to use the normal precautions, hand washing, etc.........


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## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

Camera batteries are charging  
So someone said i would need medicine but the page i read said it passes on its own. We hope he can be returned to the wild because we are against anything born feral in captivity unless is incapable of living in the wild. But if we do have to keep him what is the best type of cage to keep him in? Do they like toys like parrots?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Faultless said:


> Camera batteries are charging
> So someone said i would need medicine but the page i read said it passes on its own. We hope he can be returned to the wild because we are against anything born feral in captivity unless is incapable of living in the wild. But if we do have to keep him what is the best type of cage to keep him in? Do they like toys like parrots?


That someone would have been me.  If PMV is the only thing going on with this bird, then yes, supportive care is all you can do, but some times oportunistic bugs can take hold while they're immune system is compromised, but we'll get to that in time. 
Believe me, we all agree, that if the bird can be released, then that's the best thing to do, but that remains to be seen.
A long cage as opposed to a tall cage is best for pigeons. They don't climb around inside a cage like parrots do. Some of our members pet pigeons play with little balls with bells and such.......depends on the bird I guess.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It is true that the resistance of a pigeon with PMV to other diseases is lowered, but the conditions that they are particularly vulnerable to are coccidiosis, aspergillosis and canker, a broad based antibiotic such as Baytril could not offer the pigeon protection from these as they are caused by fungi and protozoa, not bacteria.

Vindevogel and Duchatel carried out tests which established that giving pigeons with PMV antibiotics as a preventative treatment can have an adverse effect and aggravate the course of the disease.

Although their resistance to disease is lowered, only one of the many pigeons suffering from PMV that I have rescued had another disease (mycoplasmosis) concurrently with PMV.

Cynthia


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I just want to say good luck, and thank you so much for taking in this little guy.


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## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

*Videos and pictures*

heres some pictures and links to videos from my youtube account. i will keep the videos hosted so feel free to use them for information purposes. Also one picture is of the pigeons poop because i cant tell sick pigeon poop from normal pigeon poop.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Faultless said:


> heres some pictures and links to videos from my youtube account. i will keep the videos hosted so feel free to use them for information purposes. Also one picture is of the pigeons poop because i cant tell sick pigeon poop from normal pigeon poop.


Where are the links to the videos?


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## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiW5x6zMwGk

other one is taking forever to upload


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's some pics of healthy poops.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=254270&postcount=44


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## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

so think he is going to live?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I've personally never had or seen a bird with PMV, however, there are countless stories on here from other members and the majority of the birds do live. Some recover fully and some just partially. No way to tell except wait and see. He sure deserves the chance. He's not in any pain per se......just a little off and I guess that must be scary for them, but it beats the alternative.  Does he do this all the time or just sometimes?


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## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVKjDyvO5P8
heres the other video 

i have peeked through the window and he rarely does this when hes out there by hims self tho he is doing it more and more.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

That link takes you to YouTube, but not a specific video.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

HI,

I've watched both your videos. It's such a prettly little bird. So sad to see it acting that way, but as others have told you, they can recover and be normal/almost normal.

I wish you the very best with this little bird, and will pray for a speedy recovery.

Regards,
Louise


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OK. Saw the second video. I don't have any advice except what you are already doing. It will take time. Stress brings the symptoms on, so if he's actually scared but can't "get away".......then that might make the symptoms seem worse. 
We've got plenty of members who've dealt with this. It is sad to watch. Hope I never have to deal with it personally. I'd be a basket case. 

Just to give you some hope and inspiration......read this.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15819


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Faultless said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVKjDyvO5P8
> heres the other video
> 
> i have peeked through the window and he rarely does this when hes out there by hims self tho he is doing it more and more.


The video does resemble a PMV pij. I'm not saying for certain that's what's going on, but it does point in that direction. 

I would suggest placing him in a carrier or small cage & cover all three sides, leaving the front open for you to check in on him. Keep him away from human & animal traffic. The less stress the better.

Our Pij had 'seizures' nearly non-stop, however *was* able to eat & drink on his own, but I had to watch him very carefully.

Here's the link to his story. It describes the treatment plan we opted for.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f36/a-true-treasure-15819.html

PLEASE do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Sorry, Renee. I didn't even notice which link you posted or I wouldn't have reposted it. 
Thanks. 

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Our Pij had 'seizures' nearly non-stop, however *was* able to eat & drink on his own, but I had to watch him very carefully.
> 
> Here's the link to his story.
> * *It describes the treatment plan we opted for*.
> ...


* I should clarify, supportive care is actually the 'treatment' plan with a PMV pij. 
However, my husband & I opted to _try_ a course of Prednisone in hopes it would give Pij some relief of his symptoms. Which, in his case, eliminated them completely. 

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> * I should clarify, supportive care is actually the 'treatment' plan with a PMV pij.
> However, my husband & I opted to _try_ a course of Prednisone in hopes it would give Pij some relief of his symptoms. Which, in his case, eliminated them completely.
> 
> Cindy


We have another member that just did the same thing today to calm down a PMV pij.


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## bweaz (Aug 1, 2008)

If it were me who found this bird (please keep in mind that I am a sapp for pigeons and have no children or other obligations) and I didn't know if I could take care of him, I would look for a good avian vet. A good avian vet is an amazing resource. They can tell you what is wrong with the pigeon and what kind of treatment is needed, ways to help with stress, etc. Also, if you decide that you simply can not keep this pigeon, sometimes the vet can take the pigeon or they can put you in touch with someone else who could take the pigeon. 

I know how you feel about keeping a feral pigeon, I had to keep a feral pigeon as a pet and I did feel bad that she could never soar through the skies with her pigeon friends. However, if I had released her, she wouldn't have known how to take care of herself and would have been hit by a car, been overly stressed and easily susceptible to disease or been eaten by a hawk immediately. I will to say that healthy pigeons, as pets, do not require a lot of care, they are extremely loyal, are super sweet and are pretty darn smart. If you can help him through this time, he would be very loyal and show unconditional love. If he had to become a pet, I doubt your or the bird would regret it. But don't just take my word for this, you know your lifestyle and what you are able to do. I just wanted to give you some positive feedback about having a pet pigeon.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

bweaz said:


> If it were me who found this bird (please keep in mind that I am a sapp for pigeons and have no children or other obligations) and I didn't know if I could take care of him, I would look for a good avian vet. A good avian vet is an amazing resource. They can tell you what is wrong with the pigeon and what kind of treatment is needed, ways to help with stress, etc. Also, if you decide that you simply can not keep this pigeon, sometimes the vet can take the pigeon or they can put you in touch with someone else who could take the pigeon.


I would agree that a vet who knows birds, and who will examine and treat pigeons without simply deciding they should be put down is an asset. I would be very wary, however, of taking a pigeon which had, or probably had, PMV to a vet. Here in the UK, PMV is a notifiable illness, though this is more applicable to racing lofts than ferals. No-one is going to show too much interest if you call to report a feral with PMV symptoms, but a vet may take one from you and put it down.

I would also be wary of any rescue facility or rehabber I had not had any dealings with and knew could be 'trusted'. This because PMV birds can take up time and patience - be 'special needs' birds - depending on the severity and progress of their condition, and the need for a minimum of six weeks quarantine until they stop shedding the actual virus. Add to that the possibility of recurrence of the neurological symptoms (even though the virus has run its course) at some future time. So many facilities just cannot or will not take pigeons who they don't see as releasable in a fairly short time - or, if they do, just put them down once handed over.

On a general note, the pic below is of a pigeon in my care at the moment, with the head turning symptom. I caught her a week ago, when she could just about fly to my balcony, but couldn't get off it. She is currently having problems focussing and staying steady enough to eat much. She can stand with head upright, but does go into this position at intervals and certainly if startled or stressed (like being caught to take her out for feeding). So, similar to yours, Taylor, but not able to eat too well.

John


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Faultless,

I have been having some luck with Oseltamivir (Tamiflu) and PBFD, you may want to try it as well. Right now there is a big supply of it as Roche, the manufacturer had anticipated an epidemic of avian flu and almost every drug store carries it.

Basically the drug works by blocking the release of virons from the host cell and thereby the propagation of the virus. It comes in 75mg capsules which you can pull apart and mix with water or peanut butter and cornstarch to get an accurate dose. The human pediatric dose is 2mg/kg body weight, once a day for ten days. I have been using 3.5 mg/kg simply because the human dose is so small with a 200 gram bird. Oseltamivir also has the wonderful quality of being nontoxic in humans although it has some awful side effects like nausea and headaches. So far it has brought two birds asymptomatic within 15 days and seems to be doing the same for two babies that display symptoms.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh yes, before I forget. The one bird that displayed symptoms of PMV is also on the road to recovery but it is slow and he still has neurological problems.
The great difficulty with PMV is that it prevents the bird from eating. Every time the bird would try to eat it would recoil and jump backwards throwing the seeds and food over its head. The only way I could be certain it would survive was by hand feeding it seed corn and peanuts. Now it eats all by itself, tries to fly further and further every day and hates to be handled in the worst way.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Grimaldy said:


> Hi Faultless,
> 
> I have been having some luck with Oseltamivir (Tamiflu) and PBFD, you may want to try it as well. Right now there is a big supply of it as Roche, the manufacturer had anticipated an epidemic of avian flu and almost every drug store carries it.
> 
> Basically the drug works by blocking the release of virons from the host cell and thereby the propagation of the virus. It comes in 75mg capsules which you can pull apart and mix with water or peanut butter and cornstarch to get an accurate dose. The human pediatric dose is 2mg/kg body weight, once a day for ten days. I have been using 3.5 mg/kg simply because the human dose is so small with a 200 gram bird. Oseltamivir also has the wonderful quality of being nontoxic in humans although it has some awful side effects like nausea and headaches. So far it has brought two birds asymptomatic within 15 days and seems to be doing the same for two babies that display symptoms.


Very interesting, Grimaldy. You're using this for PMV birds ?? Not sure as you mentioned PBFD (Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease) ??

Terry


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I have only one bird at this time with clear clinical symptoms of Paramyxovirus.
Oseltamivir appears to have driven the symptoms into remission, but with only one trial it could well be just the bird's immune system that did it.

I notice that in the veterinarian literature, there are an increasing number of papers published citing the use of Oseltamivir but with no data as to dose, number treated, outcomes, etc. So I certainly encourage members to try it themselves and see if they have favorable outcomes as well. It is certainly better than watching the virus, particularly PBFD, take its ugly course and being able to offer only supportive care.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Grimaldy, this is really interesting information. Are the items you mentioned available without a prescription?


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't know about Canada, but Oseltamivir is available only by prescription for humans or for animals here.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Grimaldy, could you detail exactly what procedure you are doing .... or would that NOT be allowed on the forum?? ... Some rehabbers here are able to get needed drugs from their Vets.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I am afraid I do not understand your question littlebird.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Maybe I'm not understanding you. I thought you said you had medicated a PMV bird with this Oseltamivir and had some real positive results. I was merely asking you to share what you did.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I captured the bird sometime in early July or late June (I don't have my log book with me now) as it appeared to be unable to see some corn kernels I had dropped in front of it.
After I got it home I saw that it assumed the "star gazing" posture in the cage and when I attempted to feed it, it would recoil back from the seed dish when trying to eat, throwing seed back over its head. Its water consumption was about four times that of a normal bird. I assumed PMV that had reached its kidneys and nervous system. 

I gave a vitamin enhanced water additive (intended for kidney infections) and doxycycline for fourteen days while its condition continued to deteriorate slowly but steadily. I then tried the tamiflu at a dose rate of about 3.2 mg/kg, once daily for ten days. Water consumption returned to normal levels within the ten day period. At twenty-one days he could fly out of his cage and make a circuit around the room. After capture, releasing him resulted in his flopping around on the floor without wing or foot co-ordination. An attempt to fly then resulted in his collision with a wall. I let him out twice a day now and he engages in rapid wing fanning but with one wing clearly not moving in coordination with the other wing at the same speed. The result is that if he tries too vigorously to fly, he flys in a tight circle and crashes, and he is able to avoid collisions. But as I say, with each exercise period, his little flights around the room become more coordinated with each day. He no longer "star gazes" or throws seeds, he eats like a horse (Foy's pellets and shelled corn), takes an interest in the other pigeons in their cages.

Tamiflu comes in 75mg capsules which can be pulled apart to get at the medication. I mixed the initial batch with peanut butter and cornstarch and divided it into five little balls (15mg each). One ball I divided into three (5mg) and one of those three into seven (0.7mg) on a bird body weight of 350 grams. Dividing up another 5mg ball gave 14 doses, enough for ten days with four discards. I think a better method would be to mix the 75mg of medication with 75 ml of distilled water. Eyedroppers can be obtained with graduation marks for up to one ml, so in my case 0.7 ml would probably be certain to give a more uniform dose rather than relying on the uniformity of the peanut butter and cornstarch mixture. 

I hope this provides an answer to your question, if you need dates, I can look them up.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sounds like you might appreciate having one of these, Grimaldy:



You can accurately weigh small drug dosages to a 2 milligram resolution.

Pidgey


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Grimaldy said:


> I captured the bird sometime in early July or late June (I don't have my log book with me now) as it appeared to be unable to see some corn kernels I had dropped in front of it.
> After I got it home I saw that it assumed the "star gazing" posture in the cage and when I attempted to feed it, it would recoil back from the seed dish when trying to eat, throwing seed back over its head. Its water consumption was about four times that of a normal bird. I assumed PMV that had reached its kidneys and nervous system.
> 
> I gave a vitamin enhanced water additive (intended for kidney infections) and doxycycline for fourteen days while its condition continued to deteriorate slowly but steadily. I then tried the tamiflu at a dose rate of about 3.2 mg/kg, once daily for ten days. Water consumption returned to normal levels within the ten day period. At twenty-one days he could fly out of his cage and make a circuit around the room. After capture, releasing him resulted in his flopping around on the floor without wing or foot co-ordination. An attempt to fly then resulted in his collision with a wall. I let him out twice a day now and he engages in rapid wing fanning but with one wing clearly not moving in coordination with the other wing at the same speed. The result is that if he tries too vigorously to fly, he flys in a tight circle and crashes, and he is able to avoid collisions. But as I say, with each exercise period, his little flights around the room become more coordinated with each day. He no longer "star gazes" or throws seeds, he eats like a horse (Foy's pellets and shelled corn), takes an interest in the other pigeons in their cages.
> ...


Thank you Grimaldi, I will mark this for future reference.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Grimaldy, many thanks for your detailed report.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Do we have a sticky for PMV treatments based on member's experiences? If so - Grimaldy's report is an excellent addition! If we don't, this thread has so much information & associated links it would be a good sticky 

I know I'm going to bookmark this thread for future reference.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Pidgey,

I remember you gave me the purchase data on the scale, about $110.00 if I remember correctly. I have one that gives one-tenth of a gram or 100 mg accuracy, but the great problem is that the powder from the capsules always blows around so easily that I am never certain I am getting anything uniform.

I have found that the drug companies do measure their capsule doses pretty accurately, so it is always easier to mix the capsule, or dissolve the pill, and divide it by eyeball.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Grimaldy, thank you for sharing your experiments but I am curious as to why you thought that Tamiflu would affect the PMV virus, from what I have read it is supposed to stop the progress of the flu virus if taken within two days, but the PMV virus had already reached the brain by the time you found the pigeon and could not therefore be further halted. 



> When you or someone in your family begins to experience flu symptoms, you have 48 hours to take action. Trust TAMIFLU, the number-one prescribed antiviral flu medicine*:
> 
> For flu treatment: When taken within two days of experiencing symptoms, TAMIFLU works by helping to stop the flu virus from spreading inside the body
> 
> ...


Off hand I can't remember how long the virus takes to reach the brain, but I know that it is more than 5 days after the symptoms are first seen. The damage would therefore have been done by the time Tamiflu was administered.

In my own experience the excessive drinking stopped within 10 days without treatment and from that point pigeons started to recover at different rates, most making a complete recovery within a couple of months. Again, they have had supportive treament only. Jules, who has nursed over 50 pigeons with PMV has had the same results.

Have you charted the progress and recovery of PMV with many other pigeons? If so, what were your results?

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

I do not see many PMV birds in the Chicago area at all. I have seen a total of perhaps five in the past three years. All except this last one went progressively to death in two to five days. As I pointed out, this was my only experience Tamiflu and PMV (if indeed it was PMV) and could well be nothing more than an experimental success that the drug played no part in. Nontheless I do see good results in the present 6 cases of PBFD with Tamiflu and I encourage other members to try it and report their own outcomes.

The drug company makes a number of extravagent claims for Tamiflu that tend to be oriented to marketing rather than scientific reporting. The manufacturer admits that they do not understand exactly why the drug works at all. Viruses that tend to be successful, in the sense that they are able to propagate, do not kill their hosts. As the hallmark of a virus is its amazing adaptability, it must mutate variations that are able to achieve propagation without doing that, or at least delaying the death of the host sufficiently long enough to enable it to find a new host. Rabies for instance. In the end it is left to the host's immune system to overcome the invader, or not. What is clear is that all virus leaves certain genetic changes in the host DNA, which the host may or may not be able to live with. Claims therefore about checking the symptoms with 2, 5 or even 50 days are largely meaningless. The Paramyxovirus in pigeons is lethal in about 80% of the cases according to the European veterinarian literature, within hours of contracting it. I suspect that the ones we see are the survivors, who have damaged kidneys and neurological deficits which may or may not be able to regenerate damaged cell tissue,simply because of the altered DNA. On the other hand why Tamiflu should produce promising results with PBFD eludes me.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks. What I really, really need is any information on how to halt the pox virus. It is lethal to wood pigeons. Do you know where I could access any veterinary papers on this topic? 



> The Paramyxovirus in pigeons is lethal in about 80% of the cases according to the European veterinarian literature, within hours of contracting it.


There is a rare but extremely virulent strain that has a high mortality rate, but mostly, mortality is around 5% - 10%. Pigeons injected in laboratories and "observed" can show a 95% mortality rate. If the vets quoted above were aware of how many hours earlier the virus was contracted, then my guess is that they were carrying out laboratory experiments. I think the high mortality is linked to the virus being injected into the blood stream , probably in large quantities, rather than entering the system through the normal portals and progressing slowly from there (respiratory system to digestive system to brain).

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Give me a few days and I will see what I can do.

There are quite a number of antiviral drugs on the market these days, all of which work at various levels, many of which like Tamiflu, produce good results for unknown reasons. To the extent that you are able, I would encourage you to try any you can gain access to and report your results. God knows the vets have no interest whatever in pigeons.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi again Cythia,

The statistic came from a study in France on large poultry farms. I will try to locate it for you, but basicially the owners of the poultry factory noted the immediate death of a number of chickens which brought in the inhouse veterinarians. The recommendation was to cull the entire flock. That of course triggered the study as loss of an entire flock was quite a financial hit and not one to be ignored. 
As I recall they injected cultured virus from the culled birds directly into the brains of the subject chicks at varying levels of viral innoculant concentration to try to determine the lethal concentration versus time.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Grimaldy,

If it was a poultry farm then it wasn't Pigeon PMV they were talking about , it was Newcastle Disease (you would know of it as Exotic Newcastle Disease or END...it is not "exotic to us as it originated here.). That is also a paramyxovirus but not one that affects pigeons very often. During the outbreak in California a few years ago only two pigeons were identified as suffering from the disease, and they had been foraging among the litter on an infected poultry farm.

The pigeon paramyxovirus can infect poultry, but it is always called Newcastle Disease when it affects poultry.

These links are a good indication of the differences between the two viruses. The site is the UK Department of Environment and Rural Affairs and the first link describes Newcastle Disease and the official action to be taken in the event of an outbreak. The second describes Pigeon Paramyxovirus and the action to be taken in the event of an outbreak. At present we have eradicated Newcastle Disease from the country but we have an epidemic of PPMV.

Newcastle Disease : http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/newcastle/index.htm

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/pigeons/index.htm

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I am not sure what your point is Cynthia, that when the Paramyxo virus affects pigeons it is not the same virus that affects poultry?

I don't think the label is dispositive of viral identification.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> > I am not sure what your point is Cynthia, that when the Paramyxo virus affects pigeons it is not the same virus that affects poultry?
> 
> 
> I don't think the label is dispositive of viral identification.


It isn't a matter of labels, the two viruses are closely related but not identical. I think that the fact that they are different viruses, usually with different hosts, is important when considering mortality, prevention and recovery.

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I think we may be confusing classification of a virus with the pathognesis of a virus here. The Baltimore system of viral classification classes them according to their genome or DNA-RNA makeup on the assumption that the replication mechanism and therefore method of infection is similar, but currently the virology textbooks use a combined system of DNA-RNA identification, capsule structure, envelope (or lack thereof), size, and morphology.

All viruses must continually mutate in order to successfully achieve propagation simply because a cell under attack by a virus does not passively submit to infection. When a virus is able to colonize a host successfully, we often see that as infection and the presentation of accompanying clinical signs. However many virus are able to successfully colonize a host with little or no clinical manifestations, and they just ride along, with their presence unknown to the host. The oncoviruses for example. That is a result of the genetic mutation and drift of the particular virus and is one of the reasons that vaccines are often unsuccessful at preventing viral infection. It is therefore misleading to attempt the classification of a virus by the method of infection or the sequelae, but it certainly tells one something about the virus in question. Currently DNA testing is rapid and accurate to the point that a virus can be identified in a modern lab within hours.

As all viruses originate in a reservoir, so to speak, the successful strain, or genetic makeup of the particular virus that appears to us in its virulent form is the strain that is able to successfully continue to colonize its target host without isolating itself.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Grimaldi, I do know about viruses.

The point I am trying to make is this:

You said


> The* Paramyxovirus in pigeons* is lethal in about 80% of the cases according to the European veterinarian literature, within hours of contracting it.


 but afterwards provided information which indicated that you were not talking about paramyxovirus in pigeons but about Newcastle Disease in Poultry. It is misleading to say that PPMV has a mortality rate of 80% because that is what has been seen with Newcastle Disease in poultry. The mortality rate that has been observed in pigeons affected by pigeon paramyxovirus is 5% -10% although there are some rare and virulent strains with a higher mortality rate.

http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/avian/Pigeons_and_END.htm

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/ceptor/2006/dec06a5.htm

Sorry if I sound a bit passionate about this. I have been rescuing pigeons with PMV since 2002, when very few rescuers would touch them with a bargepole, and have been reading about the disease for the last 6 years to increase my knowledge. I also live in a country where there are recurrent outbreaks of Newcastle Disease and see the results of an outbreak. It is very dangerous for pigeons to have the two "lumped together".

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Well Cynthia,

The Paramyxovo virus has the taxonomic classification of:
a. Sub-Family 
Paramyxovirinea
b. Genus:
Avalavirus (New Castle Disease)

A single sense, single strand RNA, non envelope.

And your contention that the viruses that attack pigeons and poultry are different from Paramyxovirus is based on?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Grimaldy, we seem to have a bad communication problem here. I did not say that the viruses that attack pigeons and poultry, and if you like budgies (a different strain) and canaries were not Paramyxoviruses. Just that they are not identical, have different hosts, and do not all share the mortality rate of Newcastle Disease in poultry. BTW, measles is a paramyxovirus...mumps is...SARS is. 

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. As far as I am concerned it is ended.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Grimaldy,

You might read this one, which is an excerpt from AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES & APPLICATION--it goes a little bit into the serologically different strains of Paramyxoviridae. It's a bit confusing and you usually have to read through it more than once (and once is a real chore... ) before you figure out that the first several inches of the treatise involve specifically the Newcastle variety of Paramyxoviridae and actually tabulate several substrains of that particular family. It's only when you finally get down to a heading of "PMV-1 Pigeon" that you're starting on the other, somewhat lesser strains of Paramyxoviridae that technically aren't Newcastle strains.

I can't tell you what the actual differences are between the Newcastle strains and the other PMVs, nor how antivirals would or wouldn't work with any of them. Most of the pigeons that we see that get PMV, or PPMV (Pigeon Paramyxovirus or PMV-1 Pigeon) wouldn't come close to dying as long as supportive care is applied. Left in the wilds to suffer the disease, no doubt the mortality would approach 100%. The practical difference with that PMV versus the Newcastle variety is that some strains of the Newcastle have a horribly high mortality regardless of supportive care. In the treatise that I'll link below, there is one fairly large table (Table 32.16) that lists a bunch of the strains and their mortality with words like "mesogenic", "velogenic" and "lentogenic". Those descriptions actually apply to loose practical classifications as they have presented specific pathologies in chickens. 

Anyhow, go read:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> I can't tell you what the actual differences are between the Newcastle strains and the other PMVs, nor how antivirals would or wouldn't work with any of them. Most of the pigeons that we see that get PMV, or PPMV (Pigeon Paramyxovirus or PMV-1 Pigeon) wouldn't come close to dying as long as supportive care is applied. Left in the wilds to suffer the disease, no doubt the mortality would approach 100%.


Indeed so. PMV-1 is described as having low mortality but high morbidity, and it is a sure thing that it will only have been so categorized from observations in an environment such as a racing loft. 

On the outside, I imagine the same applies in the sense of the effect of the virus itself, but that's pretty much irrelevant as most pigeons, as Pidgey said, will die anyway. If they have the 'classic' neurological problems, they will starve or die from dehydration, be caught by a predator or killed in traffic, become fatally injured through collision with buildings in unco-ordinated flight, etc. ... any number of ways.

I have two here now who, though they made it to my balcony, could not fly off and only managed to bounce off the balcony walls. Neither of them can yet co-ordinate well enough to eat sufficient to maintain them, and I need to feed them a selection of food items by hand a couple of times a day. I'm still hopeful of catching a third, who is at present still able to get around well enough to evade capture.

John


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## Faultless (Aug 10, 2008)

Just a update, the last few days he seems to be showing improvement. He has been flapping his wings almost like trying to fly and has been grooming himself. These are actions i have not seen him do before, So i hope its a good sighn.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is good news. Thanks for the update.

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Anyway Cynthia,

Attached is the URL for an article from the Canadian Veterinarians Association which discusses pox virus which you may find helpful:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288422


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Pidgy,

Thank-you for the article, but the website won't let me in. 
I guess the difference I see in New Castle Disease and other strains of the Paramyxo virus has to do with taxonomic description. I think Cynthia is right that a particular genus of the Paramyxo virus can mutate to the point that the adaptation appears to bear little resemblance to the prior strains in their virulent pathogenic form. After all the term "strain" refers only to a variant of the particular virus or bacteria under discussion. That is what viruses need to do in order to propagate.

I guess the point I was trying to make before I managed to offend Cynthia was that it is more fruitful, I submit, to start with the basics about the particular virus in question as a way of learning how it manages to colonize the host cells, how it propagates within the host cells and finally how it moves on to find new hosts. That seems to be the current approach the microbiologists favor. Since evolving variants is the means of survival from the view point of the virus, and eluding the host's immune system, supportive care that helps the host's immune system to mount an effective defense is an obvious and necessary course of treatment. Since many of the newly evolving virus forms, H2N5 and HIV for example, are able to elude a host's immune system successfully, antiviral drugs have been developed. If they work for humans, why not pigeons, especially since pigeons are known reservoirs of certain viruses?


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