# Squidget Wing Tumors?



## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

What is happening now? His breast is healing, but now I see these tumor like things growing on his wings! There is no way he could have injured them! He has never grown feathers in those spots, but the right side is growing, like a lump! What do you all think? Click on Wing Tumor for Pics!

http://www.pixalbums.net/?site=Pigeon&album=Squidget

Thank You 

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that explains a lot. I'd almost bet the farm that those are paratyphoid wing boils. What you need to do is get some Baytril and put that bird on it in a hurry. If you want to do a search on it, you're actually looking for info on Salmonella Typhimurium var. Copenhagen, maybe originally an L-form.

That could explain every single one of Squidget's problems.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Denise,

Those look a whole lot like paratyphoid boils .. if they are, then that explains a lot about all the challenges Squidget has had in life. If you gently squeeze them between your fingers, does it feel like there is fluid inside or can you see that there is fluid inside? 

Let's see what others have to say, but if the consensus is that this is paratyphoid, you will have to put Squidget through a fairly long course of Baytril.

I'm so sorry that our beloved little Squidget bird has yet another challenge to deal with and sorry for you too .. you have done the most awesome job with and for Squidget.

Terry


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

OMG! How could he have that? And Yes the one feels squishy like water! Where do I get Baytril? How could he have had that for 2 months and not shown up until now? What the Hell is it and why did I not know? I am so mad at myself right now

Sorry 
Denise


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Paratyphoid was my first thought too, which would indeed explain his other difficulties. Baytril is the drug of choice for it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, he may have had it from the egg. Actually, that's the hardest to find because it can become completely "host adapted". I wrote a thread about it once:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11747

but it's nowhere near completely comprehensive.

Baytril is the trade name for Enrofloxacin by Bayer. It is the veterinary equivalent of Ciprofloxacin or "Cipro". It is in a class of antibiotics called "fluoroquinolones". You can probably best get it from a local vet and Squidget will need about 7 mg of the pure medicine twice a day. There are a few different forms that you could get, Orbax pills would probably be the easiest to dose. I use the 10% liquid solution.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

Don't be mad at yourself, it's just not your fault. Try and get the liquid 10% if you can, the liquid is absorbed better, but anyway, asap. Sorry to hear about Suidget's new developement.

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

It's a fairly common disease in pigeons. I don't recall Squidget's whole story--didn't you get him from a breeder? Sometimes only one chick in a clutch is affected, and they can be hatched with the disease present. It frequently causes wing and leg disablement and the wing boils are a classic symptom. I'm sorry I didn't think of this sooner. I haven't kept up well with the forum because I'm crazy busy with other things. I was under the impression your little guy suffered from splay-leg. 

Anyway, you can get Baytril from the pigeon supply houses: Foy's, Global, Jedd's or others. Have them ship it overnight and if you're not comfortable doing injections I'd recommend you get the tablets. I wouldn't use the stuff that goes in the drinking water because you can't be sure how much he's drinking. 

There's a vaccine for paratyphoid/salmonellosis, Sal-Bac.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, actually you can give the liquid Baytril down the throat, it's pretty easy even for the novice. But whatever you prefer, I just think if you can handle drops that it would be absorbed faster/better. 

Thought you might be interested in these links:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetbelg/index.cfm

http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

http://www.pipa.be/artikels/pi-account/paratyphoid.htm

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Denise,


Tell Squidget I am sorry he is having this situation with these Boils...but that without their having appeared, no one would have ever guessed that possibly all this while he had been fighting the patatyphoid.

Now we all know, that if we see odd Leg issues in a Baby or Youngster, then m-a-y-b-e this is something to be remembered as a possible cause or agent.

Cipro (Baytril) can be got of any pharmacy, but I do not recall if one must have a perscription from an MD or a Dentist or a Vet to do so.

If you have a friendly Vet or MD you could call, they might have some on hand, or, maybe he could call in the 'scrip to a pharmacy near you and you could save some time over the Mail Order method.


These boils look like they are occuring on the elbows...so, i think yes, make haste, so they do not have time to do harm to the joints there.


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Denise ... looks paratyphoid is the consensus .. get going ASAP on Baytril or Cipro .. if you don't have it or can't get it, please post immediately.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That was my first thought also when I saw your thread title.

Denise, I'm sorry to hear about this new symptom and it is not your fault.

Once Squidget is on the Baytril maybe you will see some great progress in his recovery!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

I hope all of this isn't freaking you out too much, and that you are able to locate the Baytril today. Please remember to post if you have any difficulties in acquiring it.

I thought you might be interested in looking at some photos that Terry Whatley posted this past spring on a Giant Hungarian House Pigeon that she took care of for a friend. The following links are before and after Baytril pictures of the same bird:

http://www.rims.net/Paratyphoid/index.html

http://www.rims.net/2005Apr10/BigBertha/target1.html

I know this must be all so disheartening to you, so I wanted you to see for yourself that hope is around the corner.


The full story is now a sticky in the sick & injured section in the thread "Is This Paratyphoid?

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thanks Fp,

I have been on the phone since 9am, so far all I can find are the tablets in 20 upto 90 grams, but am waiting for a few calls back! And yes! I am worried sick right now! I will take a min to look at your posts

Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Ok I looked at the links and that is an amazing recovery! But Squidgets looks more like a tumor than a bubble, but it is a soft tumor, but not watery. If I get the tablets, what size and how much will I give him!

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it's Baytril, it's dosed at 15 mg/kg BID. Squidget is almost but not quite half a kilo so you're looking for a way to get 7 mg pure medicine down him twice a day. Now, you need to be extremely precise about drugs and dosing. You said that you've found them from "20 upto 90 grams" but you probably meant 20 to 90 milligrams. That's very important that the information is exact. You can take a 20 milligram tablet and simply cut it in thirds--he'll get two pieces one day and the leftover plus another piece the next day so two tablets will make three days (if I got his weight right). It's possible that a tablet could be a one-a-day long release formula so you need to check that out. In any case, we can find out on the net what it is that you've got and how to dose it if the supplier doesn't know what to do.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Poor Squidget has been having a hard time of it as are you, Denise. 

Even if someone had tentatively suggested paratyphoid earlier it would not have been sufficient to risk Baytril. As far as I understand Baytril is the only antibiotic that is really effective against paratyphoid but it is not suitable for growing animals because it can affect bone development. The wing boils are convincing evidence of paratyphoid, squidget is older now and it is the right time for Baytril...I hope that she makes a speedy recovery.

Cynthia


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

First I want to thank everyone for their concern and help!

I was on the phone at 9am when the vets open, called all in the phone book!
Most only had injection, which I can't do. One had the liquid Baytril, but would not sell to me until seeing the bird, needless to say he was to busy! One had the tablets, but vet wouldn't be in until late afternoon! Others just never called back!

So I ordered Baytril tablets from Foy's, overnight delivery cost $38, for a total cost of $68. I had no choice, otherwise they would not arrive before Tuesday. I was told they would be here by 1:30 tomorro.

That is the best I could do! I didn't dare wait for vets to call back, I needed the overnight delivery before it was to late to get it! If this were about my dog or cat, he would've had the Baytril by now! Believe me everyone of them got a piece of my mind for being so inconsiderant, when my little Squidget needed meds!

Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Pidgy,

Foy's told me they were 50mg tablets and to give a pigeon one forth a tablet once a day. 
I talked to them on the phone because I wanted the overnight delivery guarenteed!

Squidget weighs 14 ounces right now, just under a pound, what do you think I should give him?

Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I wonder why the breeders pigeons have not been sick with this!

I am hoping that he does have this, as at least now I will know what I am fighting! After reading all the links and posts about this, He does show alot of the symptoms. Slow growing, deformed legs, eating less and losing weight, weaker, and now the wing boils. Excessive thirst, large sticky, smelly, poop and weak cracked feathers!

I just hope it is not to late to help him!

Denise


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Denise, 

In case it has not been mentioned expllicitly in previous posts of your thread here...

Do not use any Calcium containing Grit while Squidget is on the Baytril.

Calcium Carbonates or Oyster Shell or Calcium supplimented Grit will interfere with the medicine.

Get some plain crushed Quartz or Granite Grit and use that if you like.

Or just wash, clean, and bleach-water soak and rinse well...any sort of fine gravel from the great out doors...

(I used to do that sometimes, and did that for my wonderful little Duck when I had her here...since she prefered larger grit than what I had for the Pigeons, but if you screen to the size you want, you can do this for getting the right size for Pigeons also of course...)


Good luck!


And yes, as far as I know also, if it had come to light 'earlier', that Squidget had the paratyphoid illness...there would have been a real problem with how the Baytril is bad for Babys and will mess them up as much or worse than the illness it is being used to combat.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you Phil,

I have the red pigeon grit, is that no good? Have over a foot of snow here so can't forage for it!

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Unie was on Baytril after her eye enucleation because I thought I was going to lose her (she got real sick). I carried it through for quite awhile and she's a tiny pigeon today because of it. Frankly, I wouldn't have cared about treating Squidget with Baytril when he was young because he was never going to need to be a big bird and fly fast.

Realistically, if it did matter, we'd have treated him with a staged regimen beginning with Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Bactrim). It's the preferred med for nestlings (at least for this) and, while it might not have eradicated the disease, it would have helped. As it is, Squidget got this far with nothing. There are a few other meds we could have used but not at the same time as Bactrim. However, we could have gotten to the mostly-grown-up condition on the Bactrim and then switched to the Baytril.

For a certainty, we WOULD have done this if we'd suspected Salmonellosis before now. It's a weird one and this is one of the most obscure forms for it to take, at least up until the wing boils. That's a symptom that's definitive. 

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, don't worry about pigeon grit right now, they're not going to die in 15 minutes without it. Actually, I have a real hard time getting Unie to eat grit. Squidget's not growing anymore or trying to make eggs so he can survive on what he gets out of his normal feed while he's on the med.

By the way, another thing you can do while they're being treated for Salmonellosis is to give massive doses of probiotics. Massive doesn't mean that you need to pump it in by the gallon, just give capsules or pills. Trees Gray can work you through what you need for that. That won't help the systemic infection, just in the gut.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Pidgy,

What about the dose? I will get the the 50mg tablets from Foy's tomorro.
They told me 1/4 per day, should I do 1/8 twice a day? I really must do this right! What about the grit, what do I need, I have the red pigeon grit.


Please help me, I know I'm not the brightest bulb, as this is my first Pigeon!

Thank You, 

Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I did order some good probiotics also today, but not on overnight delivery! 

And yes that was gona be my next question!

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I don't know--I'd probably err to the 1/8 tablet twice a day to keep the level flatter in the bloodstream. Let me see if I can find some stuff about this product on their website.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

Not sure which probiotics you ordered, but if by pill, alternate with the Baytril.
That is, not at the same time, so the first thing in a.m. you might give the Baytril, then at lunch, the probiotics, etc. If you notice in Terry's thread, she doubled up on her first dose of Baytril. Also, to ensure they aren't carriers, I believe I've read both 3 and 4 weeks of dosing, see what others have to say on length of treatment.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, those wing boils are going to take awhile, probably a month to completely resolve. I guess you ordered the #577 which has 30 tablets and the website doesn't say what size the tablets are but you're telling me 50 milligrams per, right?

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Yes, Pidgy that is what I ordered. They told me 50mg each


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I ran the calcs and at 14 oz he's running 7/8 lb. or 397 grams, or .397 kg so times 15=5.95 mg per dose. Personally, I'd do what Feralpigeon said Terry did and double the first dose. Then, I'd spend a week doing three of the 1/8 pieces per day (6:00 am, 2:00 pm, 10:00 pm or some variant depending on your schedule). Hopefully, you'll see them just beginning to go your way by the end of that and can taper back down to the regular dose.

I can tell you don't want to do this but later on, we may be able to help resolve them faster by using a hypodermic syringe to aspirate (draw a lot of the fluid out) the boils if they don't burst on their own. If you can find it in yourself to do that, we can send you a hypo if you can't get one another way.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank You Pidgy!

When I recieve Baytril tomorro, I will give 1/4 tablet and starting Sunday, I will give 1/8 3 times per day! Probiotics in the middle somewhere, not at sametime. I will do this for one week! Not give any grit and see what happens! Then we will start from there! If I am wrong let me know!

Denise


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry Squidget has paratyphoid. On the other hand, now you know what you are dealing with and he might show a spectacular recovery after the treatment.
I don't know if that's what Jane has, but after a week of treatment she is able to stand and take a few steps.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


What is the test to determine if an otherwise non-distinct symptom Bird may have paratyphoid?


Too, Should the Tablets' fractional parts be given on an empty Crop? Or is followed by a drink of Water allright?


A dark sheet of construction paper, and a Single Edge Razor Blade may make the task of dividing a small tablet into eighths, a little easier, since most of it will be powder at that point, and crumbs...

...for adminstering which, can the eighths of a Tablet as powder-and-crumbs be dissolved in tepid Water and given via Eye-Dropper to the back of the throat?


Phil
el ve


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Reti Thank you!

And yes I am hoping this may help, it is easier to fight a battle, when you know who you are fighting! I am so happy Jane is doing better and wish you both the best of luck!

Denise


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

pdpbison said:


> What is the test to determine if an otherwise non-distinct symptom Bird may have paratyphoid?


Phil,

Here is a link about testing for paratyphoid from Dr. Pesek in New York State:

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/BirdDiseases.htm

Scroll down to the Salmonella part.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Revisiting Alea, Bert, and Ali ..*

Though this is a long thread and the subsequent threads are also long, they detail the incredible dedication of Alea (human) and the saving of little Ali who had both slow crop and paratyphoid:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5841&highlight=bert

If you care to read the rest of the threads, search on Bert and Ali, and you will find more than three months of posts and pictures regarding how Ali was saved.

Having personally met Alea, Bert, and Ali, these threads brought back very special memories for me.

Denise .. if you read these threads, I hope they will help to give you the stamina to continue on with Squidget.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Terry,

I've read the various opines on whether or not to use pro-biotics w/anti-biotics,
I know that Nooti says that it makes them work overtime and stresses the ablility of the anti-biotic to do its job. But I also know that whenever I'm in the situation of prescribed antibiotics, it is recommended that I do a course of probiotics. What I'm not sure of in the avian community is whether or not it is of economic factors that they choose not to or whether of sound medical concerns, as when the human factor is introduced, there seems to be more concern about making sure the 'balance' is in play. I am open to all information
from studies on that issue.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

feralpigeon said:


> What I'm not sure of in the avian community is whether or not it is of economic factors that they choose not to or whether of sound medical concerns, as when the human factor is introduced, there seems to be more concern about making sure the 'balance' is in play. I am open to all information from studies on that issue. fp


Hi fp,

I don't know the definitive answer to this question/situation but can say that I, personally, do not give probiotics during the course of antibiotic treatment and that my vet (nor any vet I've been to) has ever recommended this. Yes, following the treatment, I do give probiotics .. just not during. 

I did have one duck years and years ago that was on really massive doses of Cipro for an extended time (almost 2 months), and in that case, my vet had me give Nizoral (ketaconazole) which is an anti-fungal along with the Cipro.

I'll try to do some research on the subject and will also ask on the WLREHAB list to see what others are doing.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Antibiotic and probiotic use*

I'm glad that you brought that up, because it is so crucial in rehab. Not using any drugs myself, I wouldn't be able to help you, as I do use probiotics with my natural remedies and the immune response is always on the up and quick.
However, I do not give them at the same time, either.

I would also be interested in finding out about use of antibiotics and probiotics, there seems to be 2 schools of thought.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi All, 

From everything I've heard and read about the use of antibiotics and probiotics at the same time would seem to indicate it's pointless. The antibiotics kills all bacteria, both good and bad leaving the system sterile. 

Therefore, administering probiotics while treating with antibiotics would be an exercise in futility. The probiotics wouldn't populate and grow being killed off during the antibiotic treatment.

I agree with Terry and Treesa that they should be given after a course of antibiotics only in large doses to repopulate the gut as fast as possible.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you for the link Terry! I enjoyed it, and it is encouraging! It surely does sound as tho Squidget has Paratyphoid. He has had all the symptoms, half the size of his sibling, slow crop, not growing properly, always thin, slow to feather and poor looking feathers.

I think he is very lucky to still be alive, considering he has been fighting this for over 2 months. He must be a strong little bird!

At 10 weeks old he is still not fully feathered and boney. he does some seed pecking but is still hand fed formula and the larger seeds.

I will not give probiotics until everyone feels he is ready. The Baytril should arrive early this afternoon! 

Thank you, Denise


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

On the subject of probiotics, my vet actually recommended giving the dog natural yoghurt as a probiotic while she was on synulox for a gut infection.

I do not believe that antibiotics kill all gut bacteria. If that was so then fighting bacterial infections with antibiotics would be so much simpler than it is. Baytril is ineffective against anaerobic bacteria and I this group would include at least some of the bacteria (good and bad) that populate the gut. 

I believe that what happens with antibiotics is that they disturb the balance of bacteria in the gut and probiotics help restore the balance. I have heard and read that probiotics and antibiotics should be given as far apart as possible with a lapse of at least 2 hours between the dose of antibiotics and the probitic follow up.

Cynthia



Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cynthia, 

Actually, you do bring up some good points here. I think there could very well be something to this when you think about it. It would depend on the bacteria involved and what drug you're using on whether or not it would wipe out all or most of the bacteria in the gut.

I've always read it's pointless to use probiotics while giving antibiotics but maybe there are times when you could. I still think that there would have to be some kind of timing involved. Meaning that you couldn't/shouldn't give probiotics right after antibiotics.

More research and opinions needed on this one!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On page 955 of AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison, it says that there's some controversy as to treating salmonella infections in companion birds. If a bird's a carrier, then it should be treated with appropriate antibiotics and probiotics. When a Salmonella infection shows CNS sign or is chronic, they can be pretty tough to get rid of. Flock management is usually suggested to be performed by way of identifying carriers and "removing" them so they don't raise chicks that have had been infected from the egg because treating such birds is especially difficult. It's really odd because egg transmission outbreaks seem to cycle in 3-month intervals. There's even a methodology for removing the eggs in cycles based on that timing to clear such bad Salmonella from an aviary.

Many antibiotics are absorbed early in the journey through the alimentary canal. Often, very little of it reaches the intestines per se where the susceptible flora and fauna are. This excerpt seems to indicate that lactobacillus is the primary enemy of the salmonella organism in the gut. In my experience, I haven't seem much to indicate that the intestinal flora and fauna is affected overmuch by most of the antibiotics that I've used and unless you really kill it back they repopulate quite quickly. In a case like this, it's because the antibiotic doesn't make it to the intestines in sufficient quantities that you need to send something through that will. Something hungry and carnivorous to the Salmonella. Lean and mean. I think the alternating protocol, while not mentioned in that book, sounds like a very practical strategy. 

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I have used Nystatin primarily with Bactrim but have also used it with Baytril. I googled "nystatin used with baytril" and found some interesting sites among them: www.acstiels.com/Articles/Health/sourcrop.htm

Some of the sites also discuss probiotics.

Also, try googling "probiotics used with Baytril". Found several like www.holisticbird.org/diet/probiotics.htm

Maggie


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

If you get it from a pigeon supply house it will come with instructions. The tablets I have must be divided and you give the pigeon 1/4 of a tablet per day. Vets usually give them an injection in the office and have you follow up with liquid administered directly in the beak twice a day. The liquid you can buy from the pigeon supply, however, is of a different strength and is meant to be diluted in drinking water, so you would have to be very careful calculating the dose for giving it to them directly.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Regarding the use of probiotics concurrently with antibiotics, I do think there is more than one school of thought on the topic whether human or avian. I did google the topic and found many references to concurrent use of both antibiotic and probiotic treatment. I've also noticed there are/have been members on this forum promoting concurrent use as well as on Fred's new site. Maybe there is no right or wrong......

http://www.pigeonbooks.com/samples/trick.html

http://www.holisticbird.org/diet/probiotics.htm

http://www.woodlandbird.com/text/Probiotic.html

http://www.cagenbird.com/probiotics.htm

Perhaps like the term cere or wattle, they both have merit and people choose according to their own experiences/preferences.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I think that Brad put it in a nutshell: 



> It would depend on the bacteria involved and what drug you're using


I don't think there can be a simple answer to that question.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

There are alot of references to tests that have been done on LGG and concurrent antibiotic treatment. One of the two doctors from Tufts who isolated the probiotic in the human intestine in 1983, gives endorsements for its concurrent use w/antibiotics in the link below. Although Cipro was not one of the antibiotics used in the tests. He speculates on the issue of whether there is a "general" way that antibiotics affect the flora that can be
generalized and therefore reduced w/the probiotics.

http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archive/2002/january/features/gorbach.shtml

And in another link, it discusses the concurrent use of Flagyl & LGG:

http://c4isr.com/oley/lifeline/bacter.html

So it could be that the specific probiotic to be used is an important factor.

fp


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