# How do you cull your pigeon?



## Pounds88

Before i used it to giving friends. Now i don't know what to do with some of them. I like to lessen the number of my pigeons in my loft.


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## MaryOfExeter

ANYWAYS.


I sell and give away birds when I need to cut the feed bill. If I can't find a home for them, then they stay here until I can.


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## cotdt

Some birds get lost in the training tosses. I guess I lose the ones that were not very good at homing anyway.


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## TAWhatley

*Let's Keep The Rules In Mind, Please*

_2. This is a pigeon advocate website. Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any cruel treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. While we encourage an exchange of opinions in these forums, please note that there are specific 'Off Limit' topics that are PROHIBITED and any such posts will be be immediately removed without discussion. Off Limit topics include:

Lethal means of control - Our discussions encourage 'humane habitat modifications'. We reject all discussions about 'lethal' means of control.

Lethal culling. We advocate only 'responsible culling' of unwanted pigeons or doves. 'Responsible culling' is defined as: Taking the responsibility for finding proper homes for your unwanted pigeons. Please do not try to give us your 'justifications' for 'lethal culling', we have heard it all. If you hold an opinion about your 'right' to 'lethal culling' of unwanted pigeons and/or any animal, please keep it to yourself.Please just go away._

I have removed the reported posts from this thread as well as the comments regarding them.

Terry


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## sky tx

Looks like some members ask questions they should "NOT" have asked.


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## bbcdon

If you do not want the birds, donate them to a young or new fancier. They may not fly well for you, but I definitely believe that genetics can hit, and they can produce winners. It is their god given gift to fly, and I truly believe that no one knows when two birds can produce a winning bird.


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## bbcdon

Amen to that, sky tx.


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## Big T

How do you cull your pigeon?

This is an important question, NOT just with pigeons, but with all animals due to this country being overrun with them. So here is how I "cull" my birds. I do it before they are born. I breed ONLY what I need. My loft is 12' X 6' X 6' so I can hold 36 birds. I have six pairs that I use for breeding. These 12 birds will only loft fly. I want 21 birds that I am always training. This gives me about 33 birds. So to control my breeding I use dummy eggs. 

I will also breed when people want some of my birds. But they have to wait because I breed when I have someone that wants birds, I do not breed in the hopes of selling birds. 

Basically everyone's loft can only hold a certain number of birds, which are the max birds you can have in your loft. You want your breeders and young birds’ numbers that you work with under that by a few birds. Remember the numbers are easy. Each pair you breed will give you two young birds each time you breed them. You need at least two sets, (four birds) of young from each pair to test that year's racing. So you back track your numbers by the number of young birds you want for the size loft you have. 

My loft holds 36 birds. Six paired up for breeding, giving me four young birds making 24 plus the 12 breeders. I'm done. At the end of the year you check the records and see who did what then make your plan for the next year. For me it is who's young did the best and how do I want to set up my breeding from the results, but because of the size of my loft I can only have six pairs of breeders. 

Any breeding outside the two sets I do is only to give to other people, I screws up my record keeping to keep adding to the younger birds, (learned this the hard way). 

I think this falls within the rules and maybe a little helpful,
Tony


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## Char-B Loft

Please do not give culls to new flyers. We want people to stay in the sport so we need to give them good birds...


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## Lovelace

well said Big T I myself do the same, small team, less breeders, less birds makes thing a lot better.


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## sky tx

I would not call the Merckx X 019 Janssens bloodlines That I gave away "CULLs".
But then again I had to cut down my number of birds SO maybe they were "culls"


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## re lee

First if thinning numbers down. Any bird you remove is a cull Even if it is a good bird. Now I used to give the good and useable birds to people that could use them. Then the birds i felt were not I gave to people wanting back yard birds or to pigeon peddlers that sold the cheap at swap meets ect. There was many a year after raising 100 young birds I would at the end of a year reduce down to just keeping 1 bird That meant getting rid of the other 99 . And some years I would keep 3 to 5 Never more then that To go forward you have to select the best Each year. and as in the breeding loft you have to remove to replace. As with a old bird team You remove to replace and add from lost birds. i never liked what some do It has to be done sometimes. But giving birds away. And selling off the better ones NOT the so so birds. But understand its not that easy at times to find a person to take the extra birds thats why i liked to get a hold of the peddlers And every state has a few they keep many a bird and get rid of many a birds To me there are a need and a sore But helpful when you have several birds to get rid of. But others has there idea.


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## Matt Bell

Char-B Loft said:


> Please do not give culls to new flyers. We want people to stay in the sport so we need to give them good birds...


Please remember, one person's culls may be better than any bird in anothers lofts. Kinda like one persons trash is anothers treasure.


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## MaryOfExeter

Matt Bell said:


> Please remember, one person's culls may be better than any bird in anothers lofts. Kinda like one persons trash is anothers treasure.


Exactly. Any bird you take out of your breeding program, even if it has done well for you, is considered a cull. Culling is simply getting rid of something or taking it out of something. If I didn't have 'culls' for breeders, I wouldn't have won the races I did.


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## Char-B Loft

Matt Bell said:


> Please remember, one person's culls may be better than any bird in anothers lofts. Kinda like one persons trash is anothers treasure.


I look at it this way, if the birds are not good enough for me then they are not good enough for a new flyer...I give new flyers birds out of my best pairs...


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## Matt Bell

So you are telling me that all the birds your best pairs breed are super A1 class pigeons? I don't think so my friend.


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## MaryOfExeter

TRC 40 - won the first race I entered, on the club level.

Sire - TULSA 5202. Cockbird given to me for free at a combine show. Was supposed to be in the auction but people were buying birds for only a few dollars, so the guy decided it'd be more worthwhile to give this bird and another cock to me.
Dam - MRPC 5042. A hen Renee (Lovebirds on here) gave me because she needed to reduce the number of birds in her OB team.

NPA 387 - won the second race I entered, on the club level.

Sire - CMPC 0961. Cockbird I got at a pigeon swap. A guy had brought two cages full of birds from a flier who needed to reduce his flock. No pedigrees, no nothing. Just good looks and band numbers. The birds were selling for $5-$10 each. If I remember right, I got this guy for $10.

Dam - TRC 626. Another hen Renee gave me off her old bird team. Had flown about 300-something miles but never did anything spectacular. Now this hen has a son in California that flew two 500 mile races this past OB season as a yearling, along with almost all the other races. Hasn't won, but is doing great.



So when I said if it weren't for culls, I meant it. Their trash was my treasure. I'll never forget my first two races.



Also, when I sell/give away birds to new fliers, I offer them a pair of young birds from my breeders for them to race when they start up. It's what everyone else did for me, so why not do the same?


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## re lee

I was told by some one i have high respect for in the pigeon world. that if you are going to sell a bird NEVER sell a bird you are not willing to use your self. that means a bird that you have used.In breeding or flying. Now that means for flying a bird that made your race team and not a bird that was put on the team just because it did not get lost in training. because there is a difference.. That helps keep your standards high. And the standard of pigeon keeping high. The bird is still a cull because you removed it from your program.. Anything that you would not use Should be given away to just back yard or peddlers that way hopefuly they do not end up in the loft of a flyer. And to help new or other flyer yes give them birds that you used or would use that way they were given the same chance you would take yourself. remember 80 percent or more birds you raise each year will not help you or really help others . sad but true


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## sreeshs

MaryOfExeter said:


> TRC 40 - won the first race I entered, on the club level.
> 
> Sire - TULSA 5202. Cockbird given to me for free at a combine show. Was supposed to be in the auction but people were buying birds for only a few dollars, so the guy decided it'd be more worthwhile to give this bird and another cock to me.
> Dam - MRPC 5042. A hen Renee (Lovebirds on here) gave me because she needed to reduce the number of birds in her OB team.
> 
> NPA 387 - won the second race I entered, on the club level.
> 
> Sire - CMPC 0961. Cockbird I got at a pigeon swap. A guy had brought two cages full of birds from a flier who needed to reduce his flock. No pedigrees, no nothing. Just good looks and band numbers. The birds were selling for $5-$10 each. If I remember right, I got this guy for $10.
> 
> Dam - TRC 626. Another hen Renee gave me off her old bird team. Had flown about 300-something miles but never did anything spectacular. Now this hen has a son in California that flew two 500 mile races this past OB season as a yearling, along with almost all the other races. Hasn't won, but is doing great.
> 
> 
> 
> So when I said if it weren't for culls, I meant it. Their trash was my treasure. I'll never forget my first two races.
> 
> 
> 
> *Also, when I sell/give away birds to new fliers, I offer them a pair of young birds from my breeders for them to race when they start up. It's what everyone else did for me, so why not do the same?*


That is what I call ATTITUDE


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## JaxRacingLofts

If it was'nt for some fancier selling his "culls" or just surplus stock at my local feedstore I would have never even known that people race pigeons. So when the time comes and I will need to "cull" some birds my plan is to sell them on craigslist. This is a 2 fold strategy 1'st it will make people aware that homing pigeons are kept as pets and even raced. Second and most important it will make the new pigeon owner need to learn how to properly raise and care for his/her birds. You can see the 4 pigeons I started with in April on my home page. I still feel lucky to have bought them because they have great personalities...these birds are my "lil buddies". I like the idea of pay of forward..sell what ya don't want to your feedstores or online..you never know how those birds can change some elses life.


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## hillfamilyloft

Breed only what you will fly. I am not for breeding for stock, unless birds are getting old or you have an absolute pair.

Fly all young birds. There is a flier in the club no matter how well the bird is doing will not stock a bird until it has flow 3 years. His top old birds will race on eggs, if he wants young off them. But they do not retire racing until after 3 years. The bad ones will not make it home. 

If the old birds do not make the cut to breed, fly them in old bird races, or at least train them out to distance. The bad ones will not make it home. 

If you club has race limits, raise only enough young birds to have reasonable reserves. 

Quality over quantity. If a pair does not breed winners, put them on the race team. Not all good fliers are good breeders and vice versa. 

Start with the best stock you can find. Breeding 100 birds to find one gem will get you over populated in a hurry. 

Help new bees. If you follow the golden rules above, you should have some quality birds to donate to the new fliers. 

Like my mentor told me when I was looking at his birds. "my culls are better than most peoples best". I started with 12 of his culls. 10 were responsible for wins. 

Use the bad breeders for fosters for your best. This way they can still stay in the loft, and you can increase your odds on race day. Good parents in a loft can be as valuable as good blood. 

Some Ideas to help keep your numbers down. 

I have at current 60 birds. Do to the fact that I only breed and do not race, I have about 30 birds to many. 15 pairs, both breeders and pumpers, should give me plenty of birds for races and flying with other clubs. That said when the temp drops and you all are looking for breeders, I will have some very reasonable.


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## JaxRacingLofts

hillfamilyloft said:


> Like my mentor told me when I was looking at his birds. "my culls are better than most peoples best". I started with 12 of his culls. 10 were responsible for wins.


Thats funny I heard the same thing.. The ol timer also told me "If the bird aint good enough for him it aint good enough for me" when I asked him about my "culls" that I bought. So I thought I was making a mistake keeping these birds intill the race awards at the last club meeting..When the diplomas were passed out the ol timer was'nt the one with the lion's share of the awards.


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## Char-B Loft

Matt Bell said:


> So you are telling me that all the birds your best pairs breed are super A1 class pigeons? I don't think so my friend.


Did I say that? You are reading something that is not there. I give new flyers birds out of my proven pairs...The new flyer has a chance to get a good bird...


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## Matt Bell

Char-B Loft said:


> Did I say that? You are reading something that is not there. I give new flyers birds out of my proven pairs...The new flyer has a chance to get a good bird...


They have the same chance taking birds from somebody else, this IS culling. Now, if you told me you gave the new flyer your best pair of breeders I would commend you.


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## spirit wings

Pounds88 said:


> Before i used it to giving friends. Now i don't know what to do with some of them. I like to lessen the number of my pigeons in my loft.


Give away to good homes, and then use fake eggs, and breed smarter. Here is an article I have always liked, even though it is a bit long, before he even gets into the culling part.



http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/culling.htm


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## JaxRacingLofts

spirit wings said:


> Give away to good homes, and then use fake eggs, and breed smarter. Here is an article I have always liked, even though it is a bit long, before he even gets into the culling part.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/culling.htm


Thanx for the link...I like Silvio's articles...To me he seems like a straight shooter that makes he's point clear.


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## re lee

spirit wings said:


> Give away to good homes, and then use fake eggs, and breed smarter. Here is an article I have always liked, even though it is a bit long, before he even gets into the culling part.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/culling.htm


I took the time to read that article. While some rings true when it gets to raising the birds It to me does not hold it theroy. NO matter if you own the best birds in the whole world They will breed birds you can not use and would be culls. Thats why you train and test the birds. By keeping those so so birds on your race team JUST because they came home. And as a few has spoke here. Sending them on the races Knowing Or having a good idea they will get lost Is a mute Idea. 1 you wasted your time keeping them with your team. 2 they helped drag your training performance down reducing your known selction process. 3 You had to feed them train themAnd crowd your loft. Raising just a few birds is fine But remember selection for a good team is then smaller. You want a 20 to 30 bird team you need to raise near 100 birds To be able to select through to find the best that excells in your program. And then race them not the others. You wasted your time caused birds to be lost because thefailed to have the tools needed to race. Then poeople find them. Hawks get them. nature takes them. If it was so easy as to by the best birds and allways raise good birds Then every one would be able to win. And breed top birds. Sure many birds can get home But they do not become future winners future breeders So a selection method Must be done Only this way does a loft go forward So yes just keeping that best. 1 to 5 out of 100. And some years none Keeps you going forward Then adding and removing breeders. Truth is STILL many a person will change as a fad in the there race lofts every 2 3 years The new thing that gets promoted NOt building a loft andwonder why they hit and miss It takes years to build any loft And selection as you build CHECK they best lofts in the world They spent many many years getting to where they got. Kinda learn to walk before you run.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Pounds88 said:


> Before i used it to giving friends. Now i don't know what to do with some of them. *I like to lessen the number of my pigeons in my loft*.


 I missed the early posts that needed deleted. At some point, a guy has to get out from behind the computer and earn a living, and that was what I was doing. 

There are numerous steps one can take to lessen the numbers of birds. #1 is to breed less to begin with. I don't know how many pairs of breeders that you have, but I suspect you have too many. I suspect that 80% of them are producing something considerable less then 80% of your winners....maybe only 20% of them. Remove this 80% group, and going forward, I suspect your pigeon colony will be more in balance. Then going forward, race each and every bird until they have won more races then any of the current breeders, then and only then, do you add them to your breeders, and then you must remove one of your lesser breeders. 

For those who have difficulty with the English language, here is the definition of the word cull.

*cull *  /kʌl/ Show Spelled[kuhl] Show IPA 
–verb (used with object) 
1. to choose; select; pick. 
2. to gather the choice things or parts from. 
3. to collect; gather; pluck. 

By the time the bird has gotten too old to race anymore, after having flown 60 or so races, someone should be interested in some of your stock, especially if you are winning some races. 

Ludo Claessen would cull his birds and sell off a dozen or so every six months and take in 150,000 EURO or so. Makes it a whole lot less painful to cull your lesser birds, when most people even with fifty or more years of experience, have never seen birds of such quality. Which is why I had to smile when one poster said you should never give away your culls, but only from your "best" pairs. When the truth is, you should never give away or sell your best. Those who do, never really had any "good" birds to start with.....

Since we will never have agreement on what a "good" bird is, I doubt we could ever agree on what a "cull" is. And if your not into racing pigeons, then perhaps you should not be breeding the pigeons in the first place. As you will very soon run out of people who will want your "free" pigeons, much like people who shun all those pets at the SPCA in favor of new cute puppies and kittens. Just like most people should spay and neuter their dogs and cats, so perhaps most pigeon faciers might consider keeping their pigeon pets from reproducing. If your loft foundation is made up of freebies and other's culls, most likely that is the majority of what you also will produce. That being the case, then be prepared for always having more pigeons then you can keep, and which no body wants.


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## mudduck9196

Well give me some good racing blood line. I am new at this here in Ocala Florida?


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## Char-B Loft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I missed the early posts that needed deleted. At some point, a guy has to get out from behind the computer and earn a living, and that was what I was doing.
> 
> There are numerous steps one can take to lessen the numbers of birds. #1 is to breed less to begin with. I don't know how many pairs of breeders that you have, but I suspect you have too many. I suspect that 80% of them are producing something considerable less then 80% of your winners....maybe only 20% of them. Remove this 80% group, and going forward, I suspect your pigeon colony will be more in balance. Then going forward, race each and every bird until they have won more races then any of the current breeders, then and only then, do you add them to your breeders, and then you must remove one of your lesser breeders.
> 
> For those who have difficulty with the English language, here is the definition of the word cull.
> 
> *cull *  /kʌl/ Show Spelled[kuhl] Show IPA
> –verb (used with object)
> 1. to choose; select; pick.
> 2. to gather the choice things or parts from.
> 3. to collect; gather; pluck.
> 
> By the time the bird has gotten too old to race anymore, after having flown 60 or so races, someone should be interested in some of your stock, especially if you are winning some races.
> 
> Ludo Claessen would cull his birds and sell off a dozen or so every six months and take in 150,000 EURO or so. Makes it a whole lot less painful to cull your lesser birds, when most people even with fifty or more years of experience, have never seen birds of such quality. Which is why I had to smile when one poster said you should never give away your culls, but only from your "best" pairs. When the truth is, you should never give away or sell your best. Those who do, never really had any "good" birds to start with.....
> 
> Since we will never have agreement on what a "good" bird is, I doubt we could ever agree on what a "cull" is. And if your not into racing pigeons, then perhaps you should not be breeding the pigeons in the first place. As you will very soon run out of people who will want your "free" pigeons, much like people who shun all those pets at the SPCA in favor of new cute puppies and kittens. Just like most people should spay and neuter their dogs and cats, so perhaps most pigeon faciers might consider keeping their pigeon pets from reproducing. If your loft foundation is made up of freebies and other's culls, most likely that is the majority of what you also will produce. That being the case, then be prepared for always having more pigeons then you can keep, and which no body wants.


*–noun *
4. act of culling. 
5. something culled, esp. something picked out and put aside as inferior.


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## sky tx

Maybe call--Raul Gonzales--352-812-7285 or Sal Mazzurco--352-687-2989
They both are in Ocala


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## Char-B Loft

Matt Bell said:


> They have the same chance taking birds from somebody else, this IS culling. *Now, if you told me you gave the new flyer your best pair of breeders I would commend you.*




Yes, that would be noble but a little silly....


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## JaxRacingLofts

mudduck9196 said:


> Well give me some good racing blood line. I am new at this here in Ocala Florida?


I agree with you..I am just starting up now for next years Race Season. My "quality control" plan is going to be the training basket. Also if my birds love my loft so much that they beat all the odds against them to make it home ..then I'll build a Aviary just for these guys. You never know when ya might need to call one back into the game from the bench.


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## hillfamilyloft

jAxTecH said:


> Thats funny I heard the same thing.. The ol timer also told me "If the bird aint good enough for him it aint good enough for me" when I asked him about my "culls" that I bought. So I thought I was making a mistake keeping these birds intill the race awards at the last club meeting..When the diplomas were passed out the ol timer was'nt the one with the lion's share of the awards.


Luckily for me he did not give me what he would call his cull birds. He gave me 12 late hatches off his best birds. The second round of what he sent to futurities. ie. A nest mate off his second place 150 mile Spirit of Colorado bird, two siblings off his Alaska gold rush winner, two sisters out of his "08" that has bred money winners in futurities, siblings off his direct Vic Miller birds that bred him winners.

Every year they breed my at or near the high points bird in a club of 25 members with top 10 and top 10% finishes. At midway through the season last year my mentor was at high points bird and I was second with his bloodline. His bird was lost, mine took over and held the position until the last race. He was heavy in the molt and finished too far back. 

Needless to say I think he is right about the cull comment.


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## Crazy Pete

I started of with a 4ft by 6ft loft now i have a 12ft by 18ft loft and I think I will have to build another. Guess I;m not good with the whole cull thing.
Dave


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## JaxRacingLofts

hillfamilyloft said:


> Luckily for me he did not give me what he would call his cull birds. He gave me 12 late hatches off his best birds. The second round of what he sent to futurities. ie. A nest mate off his second place 150 mile Spirit of Colorado bird, two siblings off his Alaska gold rush winner, two sisters out of his "08" that has bred money winners in futurities, siblings off his direct Vic Miller birds that bred him winners.
> 
> Every year they breed my at or near the high points bird in a club of 25 members with top 10 and top 10% finishes. At midway through the season last year my mentor was at high points bird and I was second with his bloodline. His bird was lost, mine took over and held the position until the last race. He was heavy in the molt and finished too far back.
> 
> Needless to say I think he is right about the cull comment.


I am in the process now of building my "foundation" birds...so if you have "too many" you know you can send them to me. I would love to win my first race against these vetrans..(especially since they think a "newbie" doesn't stand a chance) but I know you have to work your way to the top. So keep me in mind if you want to lower your feed bill.


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## hillfamilyloft

jAxTecH said:


> I am in the process now of building my "foundation" birds...so if you have "too many" you know you can send them to me. I would love to win my first race against these vetrans..(especially since they think a "newbie" doesn't stand a chance) but I know you have to work your way to the top. So keep me in mind if you want to lower your feed bill.


Right now it is 100 degrees out. Maybe closer to breeding season pm me and we will see what we can do. Right now I just think it is too hot to send the birds.


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## re lee

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I missed the early posts that needed deleted. At some point, a guy has to get out from behind the computer and earn a living, and that was what I was doing.
> 
> There are numerous steps one can take to lessen the numbers of birds. #1 is to breed less to begin with. I don't know how many pairs of breeders that you have, but I suspect you have too many. I suspect that 80% of them are producing something considerable less then 80% of your winners....maybe only 20% of them. Remove this 80% group, and going forward, I suspect your pigeon colony will be more in balance. Then going forward, race each and every bird until they have won more races then any of the current breeders, then and only then, do you add them to your breeders, and then you must remove one of your lesser breeders.
> 
> For those who have difficulty with the English language, here is the definition of the word cull.
> 
> *cull *  /kʌl/ Show Spelled[kuhl] Show IPA
> –verb (used with object)
> 1. to choose; select; pick.
> 2. to gather the choice things or parts from.
> 3. to collect; gather; pluck.
> 
> By the time the bird has gotten too old to race anymore, after having flown 60 or so races, someone should be interested in some of your stock, especially if you are winning some races.
> 
> Ludo Claessen would cull his birds and sell off a dozen or so every six months and take in 150,000 EURO or so. Makes it a whole lot less painful to cull your lesser birds, when most people even with fifty or more years of experience, have never seen birds of such quality. Which is why I had to smile when one poster said you should never give away your culls, but only from your "best" pairs. When the truth is, you should never give away or sell your best. Those who do, never really had any "good" birds to start with.....
> 
> Since we will never have agreement on what a "good" bird is, I doubt we could ever agree on what a "cull" is. And if your not into racing pigeons, then perhaps you should not be breeding the pigeons in the first place. As you will very soon run out of people who will want your "free" pigeons, much like people who shun all those pets at the SPCA in favor of new cute puppies and kittens. Just like most people should spay and neuter their dogs and cats, so perhaps most pigeon faciers might consider keeping their pigeon pets from reproducing. If your loft foundation is made up of freebies and other's culls, most likely that is the majority of what you also will produce. That being the case, then be prepared for always having more pigeons then you can keep, and which no body wants.


Even Ludo would go through the birds and remove those lesser birds Not sell them because they would not be helpful birds. Because to maintain a qualtiy loft that people respect you have to do that. There is allways those useable birds in a sound loft And keeping the cream and selling those useable birds You keep a good program If LUDO sold every bird he did not want to keep then He would not of been respected. You your self Warren know you raise a few that are a no help type bird. And yes no one gets rid of there best. However they do get rid of there former best. But the best a person raises in 1 year That person does not need all those birds even . If they race young bird sure they make that team. And reduce off it. i say this as refurence In belgium and europe What some people do because racing is so vast and quality runs deep in many a loft. They remove deeply from there birds Through selection and many are never sold to any one but put in the freezer then those left are the useable birds. Unless some American made a deal to by a large group of birds Then they go through them keep hopefully the best and sell the rest IF I was lucky in my entire life to have ever seen any loft of birds that only produced good to great birds Then I would believe it could happen. But no loft exsists or will ever exsist that can do that people do get lucky getting some good birds And carry on the hobby A hand ful make it to the top and even the only way they did was start with good birds and try to maintain a good program through selection and removel


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## JaxRacingLofts

Re Lee your response to cull brought a question to my mind. Is there any "American" strain of Pigeons that the Belgium's would buy and fly in their races? I know how the feather peddlers love to brag of European bloodlines and pedigrees but do the Europeans actively look for American stock and pedigrees to improve their lofts? Just curious if American birds are considered inferior to European birds.


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## Crazy Pete

I would say no, not because our birds are not as good but because we haven't the numbers they do. I don't think there has ever been a race that we get to compete with 30 or 40,000 birds.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

jAxTecH said:


> Re Lee your response to cull brought a question to my mind. Is there any "American" strain of Pigeons that the Belgium's would buy and fly in their races? I know how the feather peddlers love to brag of European bloodlines and pedigrees but do the Europeans actively look for American stock and pedigrees to improve their lofts? Just curious if American birds are considered inferior to European birds.


 Your question was directed to Re Lee, but I would like to respond. I think the answer would generally be no. In the USA when a bird wins a 1st Place, vast majority of the time, it is against fewer then a couple thousand birds....sometimes much fewer. In our 135 +/- member combine, there are plenty of races where there are fewer then a thousand birds. 

So when I want to look for a pigeon which might do well as a cross, it is hard to find a bird in the USA which can be measured against many thousands of birds, as you can in Europe. So, I suspect, that for at least the rest of my lifetime, better racers will be found in Europe. The latest bird I added to my loft, was raced against 5,000+ and even 10,000+ birds. In addition to a 1st place, and being in the top 1% or 2% in numerous races, how does one compare such birds to some US combine winners which has won races against only a thousand or so birds ? 

It might be like comparing a local high school base ball team, or maybe even a Sunday School girls softball team to one of our national professional base ball teams. The local team is only considered "good" when compared to other local weak teams. But, if they got to play a game with the "real" ball players...well as they say, that is a whole new ball game. Great strains, IMHO, can really only be built when there is great competition. The competition is what places selective pressure on the pigeons, which is what is needed to improve the bloodlines.

That is why, the so called pigeon merchants import Champion racers and then engage in the selling of their offspring. There are fanciers who see this difference in competition, and who hope that offspring from such Champs might yield better results then the offspring from a local club champ which won against maybe 250 birds in local racing.

Fanciers will often attempt to debate these facts, but IMHO, not very successfully.


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## JaxRacingLofts

Thank you for the replies Crazy Pete and Smith Family Loft. Would you say the "One Loft Race" is the only way America's Best and the European's Best can compete on a level playing field? or Does windspeed aka yards per minute used to compare otherwise equal birds or is it strictly the numbers* that *raced on that paticular day under those weather conditions that matters?


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## Matt Bell

What has been said is true, in a sense I feel. To me its almost like comparing track athletes. You can compare times, distances, weather conditions etc. in my opinion. When you look at the speed of birds flown across the pond its not any different than what our birds fly, the conditions aren't any different aside from they are flying against more pigeons. Always remember when Appalachian St. went into the 'Big House' and beat Michigan, the little guy can and will win, its not the pigeons fault there aren't 10,000+ birds in competition, he will fly the same weather he is flying alone or against 10,000 birds, he has no idea that he is even racing I would bet. He just wants to get back home where he knows its safe, comfortable and he has food and water. Then again, thats just how I feel on the subject.


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## JaxRacingLofts

hillfamilyloft said:


> Right now it is 100 degrees out. Maybe closer to breeding season pm me and we will see what we can do. Right now I just think it is too hot to send the birds.


Thank you.. just let me know.


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## re lee

jAxTecH said:


> Re Lee your response to cull brought a question to my mind. Is there any "American" strain of Pigeons that the Belgium's would buy and fly in their races? I know how the feather peddlers love to brag of European bloodlines and pedigrees but do the Europeans actively look for American stock and pedigrees to improve their lofts? Just curious if American birds are considered inferior to European birds.


The old trenton strain was at one time respected but that has come and gone. Some asians have been known to buy Some morris Gorden birds. But as a rule The U S A has failed to build and cultivate a good line of respected birds. sad That as long as the race birds have been here people have not pulled together enough. But the mecca of racing is belguim and the netherlands Where very large races are. We do have americans flying there birds there And maybe one day America will get it together on a sound program. Just noticed as i back read othere posts. warren gave a rather good answer to your question. So you now have multiple good answers.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

jAxTecH said:


> Thank you for the replies Crazy Pete and Smith Family Loft. Would you say the "One Loft Race" is the only way America's Best and the European's Best can compete on a level playing field? or Does windspeed aka yards per minute used to compare otherwise equal birds or is it strictly the numbers* that *raced on that paticular day under those weather conditions that matters?


 
I would argue that no two races are ever exactly the same when it comes to pigeon racing. Maybe if we had humans running around an environmentally controlled inside track, the speeds might be comparable to other identical tracks and conditions around the world. But, as we all know, our pigeons do not all fly on the same "tracks" and they are outside with various weather conditions over the entire race course. So, at least as far as I am concerned, the YPM of any particular race, is meaningless in terms of comparing pigeons on the other side of the earth. If YPM was the way to measure a winner, then a 300 mile winner in a 200 bird blow home race, with a speed of 2000 YPM, is a vastly superior bird to the European 300 mile race with 10,000 birds and a speed of only 1500 YPM, and there is no way I could buy that. It's possible in theory, that the bird in the 200 bird event, is a better bird then the winner with 10,000 other racers in the event, but that is a long shot in my view. 

The next best thing, is the One Loft Race, where all the participants are at least returning to the same location. And even here, no two events are going to produce the same results around the country. The various different events, will draw a different caliber of participants. Would make a big difference if the event only has fifty participants, and the entry fee was $50, as compared to a 1000+ bird entry and a $1000 entry fee. Even here, the major International events have different levels of participation and entry fees, drawing a different class of racers.

Everyone can have their own point of view. I'm not going to debate my view, I am simply stating what I am thinking. If given a choice between a bird which has won some diplomas in a 10 member club, and flying against an average of say 200 pigeons, or a bird competing against many thousands of birds and hundreds of fanciers....well....you know where I stand. 

Where it gets a bit more tricky, is trying to compare various money winners in various One Loft Races within the USA. One would think that the higher the number of birds competing, and the higher the entry fees, the more competitive the event would be. Some of the lesser events where the entry fees are small and the number of birds entered, may not be any more competitive then your local YB auction.


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## Matt Bell

Just one example obviously, but if you look at the Texas Gusher race there are people from Europe entered in that race, but they did not win, American birds won that race. I believe American birds have won the South African Million Dollar race, etc etc. For me, I think that there are tremendous birds across the world if the work is put in to finding them. That being said I do think that European fanciers are more skilled than American fanciers, meaning that they get more out of their birds than Americans do. To me, thats more of a culture thing, not really a difference in quality of birds.


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## Lovelace

I myself think there are different birds for different races, for one I had birds that won races in the club and combine with only 35 members. I also had birds that did ok in the club and combine.I sent all these birds to the southeast open 523 miles for me, only 4 come home. none of them were my first and second place birds. only my average come home go "figure".


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Matt Bell said:


> Just one example obviously, but if you look at the Texas Gusher race there are people from Europe entered in that race, but they did not win, American birds won that race. I believe American birds have won the South African Million Dollar race, etc etc. For me, I think that there are tremendous birds across the world if the work is put in to finding them. That being said I do think that European fanciers are more skilled than American fanciers, meaning that they get more out of their birds than Americans do. To me, thats more of a culture thing, not really a difference in quality of birds.


 Well....that is an interesting thought....how would one go about proving that a winner of a typical American combine race is superior to a winner in Europe with say 70,000 birds ? As you know, when you purchase a bird, the loft and handler does not typically come with the bird. Not sure what data is available concerning the South African Race, how many winners in the last 10 years were American bred birds. If the majority were American bred, then you might have a valid theory.

PS. I guess to be "fair", the American bred birds should also not have any imports from Europe in recent generations. I was thinking if they did, say grand parents, etc. then perhaps they are not really full blooded "American"...just a thought. Would also be interesting to see, how many major winners in US One Loft races, had some imported pigeons in their backgrounds.


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## Matt Bell

I would bet that a high percentage of birds in the one loft races have a high percentage of import blood, but I have theories on this as well. Most that buy imports have money to enter those races, and as a fancier wouldn't you send your high dollar birds to those races in order to try and win some money to off set the cost of acquiring them?


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## Matt Bell

Warren, I went and looked up the South African Race Results for you.

In 2010 highest American bird was 10th by the Sandstrom bros, winner was bred by Karel Klemens.

In 2009 highest American bird was 8th by Cademac, top 2 were from the UK.

In 2008 highest American bird was 37th by Jorge Twin Lofts, winner was bred by Norman Filip.

In 2007 highest American bird was 13th by Fahy's Fabry Loft, winner was bred by Helmut & Alfons Klaas.

In 2006 American birds finished 10th, 11th, 12th by Two Toms, Lou Coletta, and Elmer Johnson respectively, winner bred by Roosens-Krog.

In 2005 American birds finished 1st, 4th, and 5th by Desert View Lofts, Dave Clausing, and Frank Locante respectively.

In 2004 American birds finished 4th and 10th by Jose Reinaldo Twin Loft and Carlos Avilla respectively, winner bred by Jammer-Reinhard.

In 2003 American birds finished 1st and 5th by Dave Clausing and James Kinney respectively.

In 2002 American birds finished 3rd and 9th by Dave Clausing and Sabell/Kinney/Brune, winner bred by Walter Becker.

In 2001 American bird finished 28th by Crazy Al and Tony Melucci, winner bred by GW Painter.

In 2000 American bird finished 31st by Thomas Gattrell, winner bred by Karl-Heinz Wagner.

In 1999 American birds finished 6th and 8th by Ernest Dietzman and Lou Coletta collectively, winner bred by JA Fernhout.

In 1998 American birds finished 1st and 3rd bred by B Qualls and Crazy Al/Tony Melucci collectively.

So thats all the results, I would say that the Americans are holding their own. May want to look up Dave Clausing, Crazy Al, Tony Melucci, Lou Coletta and James Kinney.


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## Pigeon0446

All a one loft race proves is that your bird might be the best in the terrain that the races is being flown and with that specific handling. Now you change the handler of the race and do things different a different bird wil do better. The only way to prove your birds are really good is to do good in many different events. Which would prove that your family of birds are truly good and can do good no matter who has them or where they are flying. One thing I'd love to see is how the birds in the flamingo race would fair against the GHC club on any given day. They should do good just becasue their loft is right on the line of flight on the real short end. But it would be intresting to see if they'd even compete with the other flyers down there.


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## RodSD

What I don't like about one loft race is that some birds quite possibly can just follow other birds. And the worst part is that the fastest bird might not trap fast enough. I have seen some videos with that. The first bird landed first, but didn't trap so the "other" bird beat it because it trapped first. And I thought that the fastest bird should win. I would have like that the first bird to land wins, not the first trapper.

Now going back to the poster's question, hard core racers cull their birds lethally. That would separate the champion breeder from just average. But since lethal culling discussion is not allowed in this forum I can't discuss it. There are obviously humane lethal culling, but I don't know whether talking about that is even allowed.

I cull my birds by not breeding them. In other words because they "suck" I don't want them to have potential babies that will pass their lack of abilities. I use them as foster parents instead. I am not a hard core racers so I am too emotionally attach to my pigeons. To prevent overpopulation I just don't breed anymore. Right now I only have 1 pair of breeder that I will breed if I need/want more birds.

To end my rant, I hate it when people give/sell their "culls." To me that will do more harm in the future than good. Just imagine giving a homer that can't home! It will leave a very bad impression to the hobby , to the sport and to the fancier. If you know fully well that you are giving a cull, and not tell that person you are giving to, you are lying to him/her. I define cull as that bird that can't be on top 10%. I define breeder cull as that bird that produce more duds or average birds or not top 10%. By that definition cull birds are those of average and/or below average (or dud). That definition is obviously too restrictive. Unfortunately, non-cull birds are usually too expensive and not available.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Matt Bell said:


> Warren, I went and looked up the South African Race Results for you.
> 
> In 2010 highest American bird was 10th by the Sandstrom bros, winner was bred by Karel Klemens.
> 
> In 2009 highest American bird was 8th by Cademac, top 2 were from the UK.
> 
> In 2008 highest American bird was 37th by Jorge Twin Lofts, winner was bred by Norman Filip.
> 
> In 2007 highest American bird was 13th by Fahy's Fabry Loft, winner was bred by Helmut & Alfons Klaas.
> 
> In 2006 American birds finished 10th, 11th, 12th by Two Toms, Lou Coletta, and Elmer Johnson respectively, winner bred by Roosens-Krog.
> 
> In 2005 American birds finished 1st, 4th, and 5th by Desert View Lofts, *Dave Clausing*, and Frank Locante respectively.
> 
> In 2004 American birds finished 4th and 10th by Jose Reinaldo Twin Loft and Carlos Avilla respectively, winner bred by Jammer-Reinhard.
> 
> In 2003 American birds finished 1st and 5th by *Dave Clausing* and James Kinney respectively.
> 
> In 2002 American birds finished 3rd and 9th by *Dave Clausing* and Sabell/Kinney/Brune, winner bred by Walter Becker.
> 
> In 2001 American bird finished 28th by Crazy Al and Tony Melucci, winner bred by GW Painter.
> 
> In 2000 American bird finished 31st by Thomas Gattrell, winner bred by Karl-Heinz Wagner.
> 
> In 1999 American birds finished 6th and 8th by Ernest Dietzman and Lou Coletta collectively, winner bred by JA Fernhout.
> 
> In 1998 American birds finished 1st and 3rd bred by B Qualls and Crazy Al/Tony Melucci collectively.
> 
> So thats all the results, I would say that the Americans are holding their own. May want to look up *Dave Clausing*, Crazy Al, Tony Melucci, Lou Coletta and James Kinney.


Thanks for sharing this. I looked for it, but must have been looking in all the wrong places. Might be a bit OT from "How do you cull" ?

I wouldn't say from this list, that USA breeders are dominating this African Race, that is for sure. Far more representatives from European countries. 

The USA Breeder *David Clausing* jumps out. One of the first links I found on him for those who may not be familar with the name: 

http://www.saundersloft.com/houbens.php?birdtype=davidclausingstory&birdtitle=David Clausing Story


Of particular interest, was this statement he made:

"In 1997 I was partners with the Houben Family in the first "Million Dollar Race", in Africa, and won second prize. My 50% share of the $100,000.00 was a great big rebate on lots of great Houben imports."

So although the birds were bred in America, it is quite obvious, that Mr. Clausing has made considerable investments into importing Houben stock into the USA. As, I think you just might find, if you go through the list of American winners, they will have European banded birds in theirs lofts as well.


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## RodSD

I think we have a very few American representatives so the record looks impressive to me. I agree David's birds are descendant of import birds so to me that would be European bird with an American breeder.


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## Matt Bell

Ok, so just for sake of conversation, how many generations does Clausing have to breed them before they are no longer Houbens and become Clausings? Oh and Warren, I just typed in Sun City Million Dollar Race in google, did the search and then looked at the archived race results.


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## TAWhatley

RodSD said:


> Now going back to the poster's question, hard core racers cull their birds lethally. That would separate the champion breeder from just average. But since lethal culling discussion is not allowed in this forum I can't discuss it. There are obviously humane lethal culling, but I don't know whether talking about that is even allowed.


Thank you Rod for knowing the rules and following them .. NO .. you nor any other member can "discuss" lethal culling on the forum. That includes humane culling methods .. not allowed. 

Terry


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## JaxRacingLofts

*Interesting topic*

This subject fascinates me the comparison between American and European birds.. but like Warrren suggest this is getting too far off topic. 




RodSD said:


> To end my rant, I hate it when people give/sell their "culls." To me that will do more harm in the future than good. Just imagine giving a homer that can't home! It will leave a very bad impression to the hobby , to the sport and to the fancier. If you know fully well that you are giving a cull, and not tell that person you are giving to, you are lying to him/her. I define cull as that bird that can't be on top 10%. I define breeder cull as that bird that produce more duds or average birds or not top 10%. By that definition cull birds are those of average and/or below average (or dud). That definition is obviously too restrictive. Unfortunately, non-cull birds are usually too expensive and not available.


I would like disagree with you that giving away birds you do not want in your breeding program is going to "hurt" the sport. There are way more people out there that love birds all birds even the dreaded "flying rat" as the ignorant put it. Giving away a white dove to a kid could be a blessing. I know the hardcore racers like to take the quick and easy way...but I disagree. If this sport is to ever grow people need to be aware of it. I think these "culls" could serve as ambassadors to Pigeon Care. Some people may just like keep them for their colors others may want to see what these birds can do and race them. I believe lethal culling is denying people the opportunity to enjoy this sport. Don't get me wrong.. I ain't some bleeding heart..I've worked on a cattle ranch and on farms. To me selling / giving away a unwanted bird is more like putting it out to "pasture"..let someone that will love and care for that animal have his/her chance. Besides after 40 days from hatching Racing Homers becomes a pet/prisoners anyway. My 2 cents on this is the culls I bought started me in the sport and have brought me this far..and I'm sure I will have and raise pigeons for the rest of my life..and my son loves them too so he may very well be the next generation to keep this sport moving forward.

EDIT: on a side note I asked the ol timer what was his biggest mistake in this sport after he bragged that he made them all...He told me it was culling a champion breeder he did'nt see at the time but later his offspring won several races for him and he "culled" the "goose that laid the golden egg"


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Matt Bell said:


> Ok, so just for sake of conversation, how many generations does Clausing have to breed them before they are no longer Houbens and become Clausings? Oh and Warren, I just typed in Sun City Million Dollar Race in google, did the search and then looked at the archived race results.


 I don't really know what the correct answer is....but some fanciers claim to own pigeons of the Paul Sion strain, and Sion started in pigeons in 1895. So, perhaps Clausing will never claim to have anything other then Houbens.  The Houbens have done so well, perhaps a hundred years after the last Houben fancier has died, people will still claim to flying Houbens, such is the impact of a great strain on the sport.


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