# Is my pigeon ok?



## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Not sure whats wrong with him (about 2 weeks old) , hes was sort of laying on his side erlier, not right on the side, but tilted. hes not been very alert since this morning. just kinda got his head laying down. sleeping alot. when i start to feed, does peck for it abit, but not like he was yesterday. Any ideas?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

If the bird is only two weeks old, where are it's parents? It should be picking at seeds much, if at all at 2 weeks old.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Doesnt have any, im hand rearng him.

I have him both on a mixture of kaytee formula (be pecking i mean opening his beak for me to put it in), and was using egg meal till the kaytee formula arrive.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OH, ok.......sorry..........
How do the poops look? Can you post a picture of the bird and the poop?


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

His poo is ok, looks like normal bird poo, it was only this morning he started acting odd, normally he wwill start jumping up at me when i come into the room, or look into the tub, and be ready waiting for food, but hes not doing that.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Open the babies mouth and see if you see any cheesy looking stuff in the mouth or throat and sniff to see if it smells sour. Pigeons can get what's called Canker. That's one of the first things we would consider with a baby this little.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

clear as anything, sniffed, no smell at all.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

if i pick him up he doest really open his eyes, just acts really sleepy.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Is it warm where you're keeping the baby? I'm sort of at a loss at to what to tell you. Have you been able to get it to eat today?


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

yes it is warm, and he ate this morning.havnt tried since as no intrest really.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi ssamm,

Outside of being kept nicely warm, as Lovebirds mentioned, is he be well hydrated? Lethargy can be a sign of dehydration, please give him some hydration fluid if you feel this might be the case. You can make it by adding one teaspoon of sugar and a good pinch of salt to one cup of water.

Until you can figure what is happening please keep him well hydrated. Give it slowly to the side of his beak, preferably with an eyedropper if you have one, or you can use a drinking straw, dipping it into the solution and using you finger on the top to hold in the fluid. I would start with a teaspoon full and see if he perks up a bit. Please be sure to give the water slowly because when they are out of it, as he looks, there is a greater chance of aspiration of fluids to occur.

Good luck with him.

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

ok i will try that. hes laing with his head right to the side, i would of thoght he was getting enouth water fro the kaytee formula


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

right just gave him the water with the mixture you just said how long would this kick in if hes is infact dehaydrated?

Hes been kind of hanging his heada to the side lifelessly.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

well hes breathing with his mouth open, like every breath he takes he has to open his mouth.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi ssamm,

You are right, he should be getting enough fluids from the Kaytee.

How does his crop feel? How is his breathing? Any rattles or clicks? Could he be too warm, is he on top of a heating pad?

Are the droppings he is producing matching what is going in? Could he be blocked up? You can stimulate him to produce by using a Kleenex dipped in warm water and rubbing it over his vent area.

If you are going to give him some fluids, again it must be very slowly, a drop or two at a time making sure he is swallowing, as not to aspirate.

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

i did give him fluids, with a syringe at the tip of his beak and he was swallowing it. He has been using the toilet fine, looks like normal bird droppings.

No rattles or clicks, hes quite quite. Crop still feel abit full from food i gave him this morning.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ssamm, were any of his last feedings problimatic? Did he choke a bit of have any other difficulties.?

Open beak breathing in adults is never good sign, my experience in chicks is more limited, I just double checked on two 8 day olds out in the coop and no open mouth breathing happening at all, as I thought, but I wanted to check. Again, could it be from too much heat?

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Ssamm, were any of his last feedings problimatic? Did he choke a bit of have any other difficulties.?
> 
> Open beak breathing in adults is never good sign, my experience in chicks is more limited, I just double checked on two 8 day olds out in the coop and no open mouth breathing happening at all, as I thought, but I wanted to check. Again, could it be from too much heat?
> 
> Karyn


Hes only about 2 weeks old.

Nah he ate fine and is was all gone from his crop ready for next feed.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi ssamm,

You say he is two weeks old, but he looks to be just a head of the development of my 8 day olds.

Here is a great shot, courtesy of Lovebirds, of a 13 day old:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=310693&postcount=140

Are there any other issues in your other birds?

I feel like I am getting a little out of my depth, but I think something else is going on more experienced hands are going to have to figure out.

Anyway, I would wait 1/2 an hour and feel his crop again. I would take 1/2 the cup of hydration fluid and add some ACV to it, 1/4 teaspoon and use this for his next fluids to see if this help his crop empty.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

whats ACV??

well he hasnt changed much in the few days ive had him, but looking at that pic then he cant be!
Im hoping he makes it throught the night.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi ssamm,

ACV stands Apple Cider Vinegar and is used to acidify the water of pigeons and at higher strengths for medicinal purposes as well for them. Just Google ACV + pigeons for a more full explanation of use with pigeons. What I use, and a lot of others who keep pigeons as well, is the Bragg brand to to found at most health food stores.

Since you didn't know what ACV is could you give us a little history on the bird, his parents or anything that might help figure what is going on. Why did you think he was two weeks old?

Could you please lay out in detail how you feed him, how often, how much and the consistency of the Kaytee when you mix it up. Not to harp on a subject, but could you detail how you are keeping him warm.

Thanks,

Karyn


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Karyn

This is the same baby 5 days ago. Doesn't seem that it has developed quite as fast as it should have, but sometimes that's to be expected with hand raised babies. Although the baby is technically about 2 weeks old, it does appear to be more like maybe 10 or 11 days old.
ssamm, it really does sound like maybe the baby is too hot. The open breathing is not a good sign for sure. 
I'm sort of lost on this one...........I'm thinking........


OOPS......forgot the link for the pic
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=393810&postcount=3


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Took this from another part on the forum

____________________________________________________________


How long have you had the bird? *about 5 days*
Known circumstances? 
Have the cages, food and particularly the water dishes been kept clean? *yes*
If a long-standing pet, have any new birds been added? *no *
Info on the new bird, as above? *no*
When did you first notice the symptoms? *this morning*
Are the symptoms worsening? *yes*

Is the bird baby, juvenile or adult? *baby*
Weight? *not sure right now*
What does the diet consist of? *Kaytee formula, and some times egg meal*
What do the droppings look like (color, odor, consistency)? *black/brown with some liquid*

Attitude and Posture? ( alert, normal behavior, erect posture// or still, fluffed, quiet, 
eyes shut, uncaring of surroundings, slumped, drooping wings or tail) *Eyes shut, doesnt care whats going on around him, wings just hanging there, extreamly quite*

Eyes? (clear, bright, open// or half closed, runny, dull, swollen area above, below or 
around eyes) *close but very clear and bright when open*

Sinuses? (nares and eyes clean, without discharge, close-mouthed and effortless 
breathing// or swollen area around eye, wet feathers around nares or eye, wet cere, from 
any discharge, sneezing. Any open-mouth breathing, respiratory distress, overall body 
movement when breathing. Any open-mouth breathing with slight exertion or fear. 
Shoulder feathers may be matted with discharge from bird wiping its eyes) *Only open mouth breathing.*

Mouth? (beak edges and inside of mouth pink and free of discharge, lesions, trachea 
clear and fully visible//or any paleness, dry membranes, swellings around beak edges or 
in mouth, any clumps of yellowish or whitish growths inside mouth, any seeds or objects 
lodged, any sour or other odor from mouth, weak jaw muscles) *Nothing, looks like a normal mouth should*

Ears? (clean, no growths or lesions or blood) *nothing*

Face and legs? (bare areas of body free of nodules//or nodules anywhere on face, legs, 
shoulders under feathers, lower abdomen under feathers) 

*Legs are weak and so are wings*

Crop area? (normal filling and emptying, no odor from mouth// or hard crop, crop that 
doesn't empty, feels lumpy, enlarged) *still emptying from erlier, but filling it is ok*

Body mass? (plump, with fully fleshed breast area// or thin, with protruding keel, 
bruising) You can check skin surface for bruising by wetting the feathers with a gauze 
pad and wiping to reveal skin. *His body mass seems ok for his age*

Feathers? (intact and free of parasites and parasite damage// or dull, breaking easily, 
fluffed, evidence of parasites, cloacal feathers matted with discharge or feces, stress 
marks on tail feathers, frayed feathers ) *Just growing*

Wings? (held erect, symmetrical, smooth structure, folded over tail// or drooping, with 
swellings or nodules at shoulders, enlarged joints) *there just hung at his sides, hes not really doing anything with them*

Abdomen? (firm, flat//or swollen, masses, fluid-filled, egg-bound. Abdomen is felt very 
gently. Vent should be free of feces, with dry feathers. There should be no protruding 
mucosa from the GI tract.) *not swollen, he is pooing fine.*

Legs and feet? (free of any nodules, pads of feet free of cuts, swellings, reddened 
patches, or other signs of bumblefoot // or nodules, red or swollen foot pad, smooth areas 
of pad surface, weak grip) *Nothing except weak*

Neurological? (easy, coordinated movements and normal posture // or unsteadiness on 
feet, inability to hold head erect, twisting, spinning, star-gazing, seizures, tremors, 
uncoordination, head tilt, unresponsiveness to surroundings or stimuli) 
*Cant hold head erect, kind of twists his head baout abit at times. *


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Lovebirds said:


> Karyn
> 
> This is the same baby 5 days ago. Doesn't seem that it has developed quite as fast as it should have, but sometimes that's to be expected with hand raised babies. Although the baby is technically about 2 weeks old, it does appear to be more like maybe 10 or 11 days old.
> ssamm, it really does sound like maybe the baby is too hot. The open breathing is not a good sign for sure.
> I'm sort of lost on this one...........I'm thinking........


Hes only had room tempreture, hes been kept in my bedroom on the floor. I keep snakes (nothe bird isnt food) so my room is at 27C most of the time, and i put him on the floor where the hot pipes run under, only today i added a extra heat pack (handwarmer) to make it abit higher as he felt abit cold to the touch, and not as active.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You've said a couple of time that the droppings look normal. Normal to you and actual normal may be two different things. Describe them for us. They should be solid black/brownish with a dollop of white. Not runny or green.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)




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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Ok. I saw about the droppings in the other post. Guess we were typing at the same time. 
I'm just not sure. All I know to tell you at this point is to keep an eye on the baby and if anything changes let us know. If the crop empties, you can feed it, but don't force the issue if it's not interested. Baby pigeons LOVE to eat........so if he doesn't want to eat, then something is wrong. Keep the baby hydrated, but again, be very careful with the water. 
I'm sure that someone will see this thread and maybe have a better idea of what's going on. 
If I think of anything, I'll post it.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Ok......LOL.........we did it again...........just posted then saw the poop pictures. The poop looks almost perfect. Might be a little bit dry. It really could be a hydration problem. I know everyone says that these little ones don't need water with the formula, but not to dispute them.........I've always given my hand raised babies a little drink after eating, so it's not going to hurt anything as long as you're careful.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Hi ssamm,
> 
> ACV stands Apple Cider Vinegar and is used to acidify the water of pigeons and at higher strengths for medicinal purposes as well for them. Just Google ACV + pigeons for a more full explanation of use with pigeons. What I use, and a lot of others who keep pigeons as well, is the Bragg brand to to found at most health food stores.
> 
> ...


I thought he was two weeks old as i was going by this site

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

for the kaytee formula i use 1 part formula 2 parts water, make it a nice paste really, and give at about 39c

Detail on how hes heated abouve.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Lovebirds said:


> Ok......LOL.........we did it again...........just posted then saw the poop pictures. The poop looks almost perfect. Might be a little bit dry. It really could be a hydration problem. I know everyone says that these little ones don't need water with the formula, but not to dispute them.........I've always given my hand raised babies a little drink after eating, so it's not going to hurt anything as long as you're careful.



I was more watery when it came out. that was probably from yesterday i had to dig threw the bedding to find them bits (except for the one on the bedding.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ssamm, 



> Hes only had room temperature


This baby is I believe hypothermic, he needed(s) to be kept at around 95 degrees to help his development, 27C which is about 81 degrees F, much too cold for a baby. If he is on the floor it could be colder than that. If he was a normal 2 weeks it, 27C, might be OK, but he looks really behind in development and they should never be cool/cold to the touch.

Do not give him anything, fluids or foods until we get him warmed up. Do you have a hot water bottle or heating pad? Run you hands under hot water, dry them quickly and hold him. Do this a number of times to get some heat into him right now.

Thanks for the link Lovebirds.

Karyn


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Dobato said:


> ssamm,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are right. I didn't check to see what 27C was in degrees.......I thought reptiles needed to be kept quite warm, so didn't pay attention.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Right i just picked him up and moved his head abit and there were some popping noises.

Few pics


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

The snakes themselves are around 30C which makes the room about 27, he does have a heating pad under him, and i have ordered a couple more. hes laying there kind of lifeless right now. But hes got a hand warmer under the tub hes kept in, as they do get pretty hot.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ssamm,

Describe the popping noises, are you getting him warmed up using the hot water as I suggested?

Karyn


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Were they popping noises coming from the beak or what? Babies do "pop" as a defense sometimes.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Ssamm,
> 
> Describe the popping noises, are you getting him warmed up using the hot water as I suggested?
> 
> Karyn


No with the heat pack i put under him ( i did this about 6 hours ago now)



Lovebirds said:


> Were they popping noises coming from the beak or what? Babies do "pop" as a defense sometimes.


Not sure, if i moved his head there was a pop that followed, very quite, neededh im right next to my ear.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The crop looks quite full.
Is it possible he aspirated?

As mentioned already, warm him up, his area should be around 90F. The give water with ACV or pedialyte and nothing else until the crop is empty.
I found that clicking sounds are never good.
Do you know anything about the parents, especially if they are healthy.
If he aspirated you will need antibiotics, do you have anything on hands?
He could also have a yeast infection, the ACV might help some with it.

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Reti said:


> The crop looks quite full.
> Is it possible he aspirated?
> 
> As mentioned already, warm him up, his area should be around 90F. The give water with ACV or pedialyte and nothing else until the crop is empty.
> ...


Thanks Reti. ssamm is in the UK. Maybe we need to get Cynthia in on this one.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> he felt abit cold to the touch





> hes laying there kind of lifeless right now.


Needs gently warmed up.

We don't want to go the other way and get him too hot.

Do you have a thermometer? Describe how you set up the heating pad and hand warmer.

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

I dont think he aspirate, he was last fed 11 hours ago now. i gave him egg meal this morning. Will try and get hold of some of the vingegar tommorw, i have nothing on hand. What kind of antibiotics would he need?


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Needs gently warmed up.
> 
> We don't want to go the other way and get him too hot.
> 
> ...


When i put heating pad i only meant hand warmer, its on the side hes resting in. 

just stuck the probe to the thermometer in, its at 85f so far


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

now at 89f


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ssamm, could you please do as I suggested, hands in hot water, dry quickly, cup him in hands, repeat, until he has warmed up.

The 85 is better, but still needs to be warmer, especially right now.

Thanks,

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Please follow Dobato's advice, warm him up gently.

How much Kaytee have you been feeding him and how often? 

Where did the pigeon come from?

Can you let us know exactly where in the UK you are? There might be someone that can take a look at him, this asking questions and guessing is using up time that could be vital to the baby's survival.

Cynthia


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Dobato said:


> ssamm, could you please do as I suggested, hands in hot water, dry quickly, cup him in hands, repeat, until he has warmed up.
> 
> The 85 is better, but still needs to be warmer, especially right now.
> 
> ...


Hess been at 92f which is what the thermomter has stopped at for about 6 hours now. He is warmer to the touch now unlike erlier.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Feefo said:


> Please follow Dobato's advice, warm him up gently.
> 
> How much Kaytee have you been feeding him and how often?
> 
> ...



about 5 - 10ml of kaytee, and again when his crop was empty and he wanted more.

Im in surrey.

Was rejected by its parents, was a frineds of mine but they couldnt keep him. So i took him on. I am happy i did too, hes a lovely little thing.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Update is that hes not breathing with his mouth open any more.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Was the 10-15 mls 11 hours ago?

*Please *tell me where in Surrey you are. We have a member there that could help. You also have Pigeon Recovery who have the right equipment.

Cynthia


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Feefo said:


> Was the 10-15 mls 11 hours ago?
> 
> *Please *tell me where in Surrey you are. We have a member there that could help. You also have Pigeon Recovery who have the right equipment.
> 
> Cynthia


This morning he had egg meal, as he seems to like eating both so i was giving him a mixture, and i make it up with warm water.

I am in morden (SM4)

By the way i have two pigeons. both were rejected. I never mentioned the other one as that ones perfectly healthy but a little bit smaller, and still begging for food every 5 mins.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ssamm, the area he is in being at 92F is a good thing. A pigeon's normal body temperature is well over 105F. By doing what I suggested you would be pushing warmth right into his body. Maybe he has warmed up, but doing what I suggested will do harm, and will ensure he is well on his way to being warmed up. If his core temperature is cold it will stop his GI track from working, hence the full crop.

Is there a way to make sure he stays in this heat range 92F-95F until things can get sorted out for him?

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

yep, these heat packs last like 8 hours and i have two more.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> yep, these heat packs last like 8 hours and i have two more.


This is good, this is 16 hours or 2/3's of a day, but as I said earlier it's just as important that he not get too hot, a heating pad would be ideal if you have one, set on low with a folded towel on top.

Good to hear he is not open mouth breathing anymore.

Karyn


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You mentioned you fed him 11 hours ago. His crop is too full still judging from the last pics. 
I think he has sour crop. Other than the ACV try to get some papaya juice, it helps in digestion, don't feed anything untill the crop is completely empty.

Reti


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

I wont do, i feel the other bird the same and his empties quite quickly.

Havnt got any heat mats left, i have been looking for one but i most of sold it.

Will go shopping tommorw, never heard or seen papaya juice. I work in a supermarket, and never seen it go through the tills.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

for the ACV everything is 2 tables spoons to a gallon. i dont do gallons? whats that equivilent too?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

OK, our member lives in Kingston but has no transport.

The baby hasn't opened his eyes...I don't think he is a week old.

At that age the formula should be thin, 1 part formula to 4 or 5 parts water. Having the formula too thick stops the crop emptying...not being warm enough can also cause this.

Try giving him a little warm water to dilute the crop contents. Infant apple sauce can also help and might be more readily available than Papaya juice in the UK.

If you haven't got a heat pad then fill a sock with rice and warm that in the microwave. Make certain that the baby can rest his crop on a warm spot, but that it isn't too hot as it will scald him.

When his crop empties he will need feeding about 10 mls every five hours.

Cynthia


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ssamm, once he get warmed up, right through, things I hope will sort out for him. If you do buy ACV, I think you should, make sure you get it from a health food store with the "mother wort" in it. Do NOT use regular vinegar or ACV without the "mother". One teaspoon to a liter.

Also, you could help things along by gently massaging his crop, once he is completely warmed up. Gently hold his beak, gently well extend his neck and lightly massage the contents with you thumb and forefinger. Do not squeeze or push too hard as you could force the contents up his neck and him to aspirate. This will help mix in the fluids you gave him earlier and get things moving again.

We really need to get this heat thing sorted out, as you have less than one day of heat to offer this little guy.

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Feefo said:


> OK, our member lives in Kingston but has no transport.
> 
> The baby hasn't opened his eyes...I don't think he is a week old.
> 
> ...


Oh his eyes have been ipen, but he isnt opening them much today, i dont live far from kingston, couple hours on the bus though. i will look at getting the apple sause then, they come in jars and are easy to buy.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Dobato said:


> ssamm, once he get warmed up, right through, things I hope will sort out for him. If you do buy ACV, I think you should, make sure you get it from a health food store with the "mother wort" in it. Do NOT use regular vinegar or ACV without the "mother. One teaspoon to a liter.
> 
> Also, you could help things along by gently massaging his crop, once he is completely warmed up. Gently hold his beak, gently well extend his neck and lightly massage the contents with you thumb and forefinger. Do not squeeze or push too hard as you could force the contents up his neck and him to aspirate.
> 
> ...


I have also ordered reusuable heat packs  and going shop tommorw so ill buy more of the 8 hours ones, and then find me other heats mats.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ssamm, again back to this heat thing. I can't emphasize enough how important heat is for these little guys. Too little, no good, too much, no good. What kind of heat reading are you getting right now, and can you make sure there are no "hot spots" and the heat is fairly even throughout?

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Hes only sitting the corners, not moving, and where it is is at 94F and hasnt changed.

The hand warmers fit in the palm of my hand, he is not much bigger, but his whole body is now warm, hes also holding his head up a ittle better now. making a few little noises too. right now i dont have anything to cuver the entire tub. its also 10pm here, so i cant just og out and buy something.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You need to use the stuff that they feed babies...I am not certain that they call it apple sauce in the UK. 

I have just read Lovebird's post and seen the "5 days ago" post...his eyes were open then, so he is older than I thought. 

Cynthia


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> but his whole body is now warm, hes also holding his head up a ittle better now.


Sounds like he is heading in the right direction. I have to sign off for now, as I am running late for an engagement. You are in good hands with the others here.

Karyn


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Sounds like he is heading in the right direction. I have to sign off for now as I am running late for an engagement. You are in good hands with the others here.
> 
> Karyn


thank you for your help so far


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Bad news, he passed last night

RIP little guy

Good news the other one is perfectly fine and i have a proper heat mat under the tub  just about to give him his lunch.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry.

If you ever need a good avian vet there is one three miles from you by road (I don't know how the buses run):

Retief Ehlers
Companion Care Vet Surgery, 
Inside Pets at Home,
80 Bushey Road,
Raynes Park,
London. SW20 0JQ. 

Tel:020 8946 2105 
Open 7 days a week.

Just in case the remaining pigeon gets into trouble stock up on a couple of emergency products: Liquid paraffin (a couple of drops of that really helps when the crop stops moving) and the infant apple sauce.


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## ssamm (Jun 17, 2009)

Thank you

And thank you for everyone elses help, sad that he passed, but i can spend all my attnetion on the other one now


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ssamm, I was hoping he would pull through and I am sad to hear this news. Wishing you well with your other little one.

Karyn


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