# Baby's dying



## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

I have a question for everybody, two guys I know have had every baby in their first round die in the nest right after hatching. I know I read something in here about the black nestpads being toxic and killing babies. My question is has anybody on here had this experience or have any knowledge of this. Both fanciers were using the black felt pads, I told them to stop using them but they don't believe me so I need help here to convince them. Thank you for any help you can give. GENE


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

you are correct -some pads do-some don't -not sure of colors or brands and you have done your part -tried to tell them----let them learn the hard way.
I would change to straw or hay and see what happens.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

beaverbandit said:


> I have a question for everybody, two guys I know have had every baby in their first round die in the nest right after hatching. I know I read something in here about the black nestpads being toxic and killing babies. My question is has anybody on here had this experience or have any knowledge of this. Both fanciers were using the black felt pads, I told them to stop using them but they don't believe me so I need help here to convince them. Thank you for any help you can give. GENE


Not familiar with the pads, so can't help you with that. But more will be along.
If its not the pads, possibility is salmonella (paratyphoid). If the parents are carriers, the embryo can be affected and the babies will die in the egg or shortly after hatching.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Why don't you tell them - just for an experiment take out the pads and see what happens to the next batch. Then they'll know.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's not that the nest pads are toxic. More that they can become damp and hold bacteria. When they parents feed the babies, the pigeon milk can spill onto the pad and where they are sitting on it, it's like the perfect medium for bacteria to grow. Even poops can make them wet and bacteria grow. Warm and damp................bacteria heaven!


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## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

They die to fast for it to be bacteria, 24 hours up to 2 days, also thought of paratyphoid but they don't usually die that fast and this is one hundred percent of to babies with paratyphoid usually you don't lose them all. Toxic fumes from the pads kill them PDQ, or thats what I read.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

beaverbandit said:


> They die to fast for it to be bacteria, 24 hours up to 2 days, also thought of paratyphoid but they don't usually die that fast and this is one hundred percent of to babies with paratyphoid usually you don't lose them all. Toxic fumes from the pads kill them PDQ, or thats what I read.


I'm not doubting you about the pads - I know nothing about them.
But if the parents are "carriers" of paratyphoid, _the embryos can be affected_. Therefore the chicks can die "before hatching or shortly after hatching"


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

beaverbandit said:


> They die to fast for it to be bacteria, 24 hours up to 2 days, also thought of paratyphoid but they don't usually die that fast and this is one hundred percent of to babies with paratyphoid usually you don't lose them all. Toxic fumes from the pads kill them PDQ, or thats what I read.


Sorry, I hadn't heard about the pads actually being toxic. But paratyphoid kills quickly often, and can kill all of them, but often doesn't.


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Nest pads*

Have 2 friends that have lost there first rounds. Both used the same pads. Had birds tested and all was good. the pads are going to UC Davis to be tested. Will see what they say. Lost 20+ each. Changed the pads under the eggs but birds still died. They are on there 2nd round on different bowls and pads.
Jack


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Action said:


> Have 2 friends that have lost there first rounds. Both used the same pads. Had birds tested and all was good. *the pads are going to **UC Davis to be tested.* Will see what they say. Lost 20+ each. Changed the pads under the eggs but birds still died. They are on there 2nd round on different bowls and pads.
> Jack


That's great. Please keep us posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Do you happen to know where the pads were manufactured?


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Black*

Hate to say to much untill I know for sure that it was the pads. I do know they were the black ones. I also think they have been taken from the web site or at least I couldn't find them. Will update when i here more.
Jack


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks. Be looking for the updates. Must be a reason if they were removed from the site.


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## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

The pads that are bad are supposed to be the black imported belgium pads
the brown pads are supposed to be good. Best use is COCONUT FIBER PAD
GENE


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Someone else had problems with their nails pulling the fibers up and getting it caught around the toes of the baby, so I got rid of mine and never use them. I'm talking about the regular pads, don't know much about the coconut fiber ones.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Personally have been using coconut fibers for many many years with great results.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are they expensive and where do you buy them?


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## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

*Pads*

Foys sells coconut fiber nest pads but you can make your own by getting the coconut fiber planter inserts from Home Depot or Lowes or Wal- Mart. They are used in planters to help hold water for the plants. Just cut your round pads out of them.
GENE


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I know which ones you mean. Pretty good idea!


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Are they expensive and where do you buy them?


yeah..... but you know what cheap carpet pad! made from carpet which you can buy at the carpet store or home depot for 60 cents a sq.foot buy 12ft.. for less than 10 dollars cut it circles that fit on their nest bowl you will get about 30 or 4o of them if done properly... works really great and havent encounter any problem....


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## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

There you go, another good idea for pads. Probably even cheaper then the coco fiber
GENE


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Amazing how resourceful pigeon people can be. LOL.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Why don't you buy some USA nesting bowls(deeper) and have nesting material around and let them make their own nest bottoms (they would prefer to do that anyway)(Part of their love ritual to build their own nest) as well as the powdered droppings actually make a real soft bottom (if you would leave them alone)(It does not smell too bad when it drys and after weaning or before (using sense here) you could clean it out--why be so gun hoe on nest bottoms??? c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I personally think they are dangerous...c.hert


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## parrisc (Feb 14, 2007)

I swithced to tobacoo steams 3 years ago and have only lost one baby in the nest. I buy mine from "http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/". I get 25# and that least me the whole breeding season. 

Good Luck


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

parrisc said:


> I swithced to tobacoo steams 3 years ago and have only lost one baby in the nest. I buy mine from "http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/". I get 25# and that least me the whole breeding season.
> 
> Good Luck


Thank you for sharing. Yes, I have heard the tobaco stems are excellent.

Here is the correct link:

http://nepigeonsupplies.com/

I have used pine needles in the past, but they can get messy, and need to be cleaned before using them when they come from the yard.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

parrisc: very interesting that web address and I marked it in my book and Foys seem more costly especially when you are having items shipped--it depends on the item and at times they seem to have an attitude problem...Thanks ---There is also a Siegals--smaller operation I think based in La.. Thanks...c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

c.hert said:


> parrisc: very interesting that web address and I marked it in my book and Foys seem more costly especially when you are having items shipped--it depends on the item and at times they seem to have an attitude problem...Thanks ---There is also a Siegals--smaller operation I think based in La.. Thanks...c.hert


If you want to talk about attitude, Siegel's can have one. Anyway, I have bought them at New England Pigeon Supply in Connecticut. Guess it depends on where you live. Most of my birds prefer straw or Timothy hay. Some like the tobacco stems, but not most. But they would probably use what you offer. And the tobacco stems are supposed to keep bugs away, as they don't like them.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Pine straw/needles is very good for nests also


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

But you have to be able to get the long needles don't you? We don't have them here, and they just ignore the shorter pine needles that I have put out.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> But you have to be able to get the long needles don't you? We don't have them here, and they just ignore the shorter pine needles that I have put out.


I have a yard full of the long ones! Your more than welcome to come rake in the spring 
I trim the trees then break off the small ends leaving about 6 inches of stem with the pine "tassel" on the end - they love them


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

bloodlines_365 said:


> ...cheap carpet pad...cut it circles that fit on their nest bowl... works really great and havent encounter any problem....


I'm glad that you haven't had a problem, but some carpet pads are made with toxic chemicals so you have to be very careful. Some folks have lost birds because of this.



c.hert said:


> Why don't you buy some USA nesting bowls(deeper) and have nesting material around and let them make their own nest bottoms (they would prefer to do that anyway)(Part of their love ritual to build their own nest) as well as the powdered droppings actually make a real soft bottom (if you would leave them alone)(It does not smell too bad when it drys and after weaning or before (using sense here) you could clean it out--why be so gun hoe on nest bottoms??? c.hert


I agree that some pigeons can make lovely deep nests with great drainage, but not all are so diligent. Folks that want heathly babies in very cold weather can use the nest pads to help provide insulation. 



Jay3 said:


> But you have to be able to get the long needles don't you? We don't have them here, and they just ignore the shorter pine needles that I have put out.


The prefered length seems to be about 7".



Msfreebird said:


> I have a yard full of the long ones! Your more than welcome to come rake in the spring
> I trim the trees then break off the small ends leaving about 6 inches of stem with the pine "tassel" on the end - they love them


Sounds like a great reason for a road trip!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It does sound like a great reason for a road trip, but I kinda like to get them in the fall before they sit all winter with snow covering them and all. LOL. Ours around here are only about 4 inches long.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If I were guessing the babies are dying because of something besides the nest pads. I have used the black ones made out of flannel and the horse hair ones also. The last baby I had die in the nest was three years ago. My bet would be something bacterial or the cold. I would look at the droppings from the babies. If they are green and slimy it is not the pads. I am going with the coconut planter liners this year because of cost and breathability. I also put ponderosa pine needles in. Some build great nests others just lay the egg on the pad. 

I think the pad idea is hogwash. 

Randy


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

That could very well be the case but I sure in time we will find out because I think someone sent something to somewhere for a check . My problem is the nest pads to begin with when you don't have to have one and unless you have heat in your loft in the winter (somewhat) and tight and dry I should don't like the idea of raising some young ones although I have had some very good birds born in winter but then again I have heat somewhat--I keep it about 55 to 60 degrees--sometimes lower---this depends but its not freezing to where water would freeze unless I am somewhere else then I use the water warmers....chert


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## parrisc (Feb 14, 2007)

c.hert said:


> parrisc: very interesting that web address and I marked it in my book and Foys seem more costly especially when you are having items shipped--it depends on the item and at times they seem to have an attitude problem...Thanks ---There is also a Siegals--smaller operation I think based in La.. Thanks...c.hert



I generaly dont talk to them, I just place an internet order. I have spoken to the folks a Foys and they have alway been very nice and helpful.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Depends sometimes they are nice enough but at other times they don"t work with you very well long distance wise with return items and any negotiation because they don.t negotiate even when they are half wrong and a lot of the time their nest box and front pieces are just thrown together and don't fit properly as well as metal drinking containers arriving with wrong tops that won"t click on right and to call them to ask about this can be painful at times--other times they are good...but after awhile you come up with a general attitude about them and my attitude changes daily about them.
c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think they're all like that at one time or another. I think it depends on who you get when you call. Sadly.


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## JohnG (Jul 14, 2009)

See videos on youtube go to youtube tyip in johnglemser that will help you


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I didn't read all the post to this, so sorry if it was mentioned already. If your friends have babies dead in the egg or right after hatching you might get them to try iodine in the drinking water. A teaspoon per gallon, give it to them about a week before pairing.


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Still dying*

They seem to be dying at about 2 days. 1 friend is on his second round with the pairs that were on the sespected (Black) pads. 2nd friend is about 1 week behind. Pairs that were not on these pads are all good. 2nd round babies are still dying but just the pairs that were on the black pads. Have not got back the testing of the pads yet. Kind of thinking that what ever it was is in the parents feathers for the second round. They were given a bath on there own, They are now thinking they may need multible bathes. Friend #1 has thrown out all the eggs and seperatet them "Again" and is cleaning everything again.
The problem is just the birds that have been on the new black pads. Others are OK. Any Ideas? I will also pass on the Iodine idea.
Thanks Jack


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you do not want to use pine needles ECT, You might think about just using kitty litter. It keeps the nest dry You just dump it and add new after the young birds are weaned. I have a friend that went to that several years ago And he raises many young birds About 250 to 300 a year All race birds. NO problems.


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## rbflight (Dec 31, 2008)

*Bacteria in pads*

In my opinion the felt pads are holding the bacteria in there. In my line of work I use germicides to kill and prevent bacteria. eliminate the source. Use straw or hay like everyone did for the past hundred years and you'll not have as much problem. The germ breeds better in the felt. Pigeon droppings are the number one source of mold in the world. Damp, dark and moist are the pads. All 3 are common denominator in the breeding ground for mold and bacteria. 
I think if you deep six the pads you'll have better results.

Good Luck

Rich Bailin


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## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

Just for all you naysayers, the verdict is in. I just received a call from my friends
about the black nest pads. They had them tested at the UC Davis labs and they are very,very Toxic so I was right about them killing the babies. They are so toxic that the lab techs said they would be toxic to humans even if we slept on them. I will try to get copies of the report to post up just for you guys that still don't believe me GENE


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

beaverbandit said:


> Just for all you naysayers, the verdict is in. I just received a call from my friends
> about the black nest pads. They had them tested at the UC Davis labs and they are very,very Toxic so I was right about them killing the babies. They are so toxic that the lab techs said they would be toxic to humans even if we slept on them. I will try to get copies of the report to post up just for you guys that still don't believe me GENE


Wow! You were right all along. How can they make something for use in the nest bowl when they are so dangerous. I would think that someone would be able to get them pulled from the market or something. Good thing they had them tested. Thank you for the information. I have black nest pads, and changed my mind about using them. I'm glad I did. I do believe you, but seeing the report would be very interesting.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

beaverbandit said:


> Just for all you naysayers, the verdict is in. I just received a call from my friends
> about the black nest pads. They had them tested at the UC Davis labs and they are very,very Toxic so I was right about them killing the babies. They are so toxic that the lab techs said they would be toxic to humans even if we slept on them. I will try to get copies of the report to post up just for you guys that still don't believe me GENE


That's Terrible! HOW can they sell something like that?!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

beaverbandit said:


> Just for all you naysayers, the verdict is in. I just received a call from my friends
> about the black nest pads. They had them tested at the UC Davis labs and they are very,very Toxic so I was right about them killing the babies. They are so toxic that the lab techs said they would be toxic to humans even if we slept on them. I will try to get copies of the report to post up just for you guys that still don't believe me GENE


Makes we wonder why people are always trying to reinvent the wheel ?! Some products...ie, nest pads, have been on the market for decades, and used with much success. So, why go and use material which is untried ??? 

Somebody took a short cut to save a buck, or make a buck, and now you see the result.


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Report!*

UC Davis report!
View attachment 15067


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## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

Thank you Jack for posting up the report. I've also got it but didn't have a chance to post it yet Thanks again GENE.


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## pigeonnewb (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks Jack! I needed that report a member down here had a lot of dead birds also.
Chou


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

You're the man jack! Thanks for the report!


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Pads*

Just want everyone to be aware! Chou If you need anything else let me know.
g0ldenb0y55-Just posting what I know. I am very new to Pigeons but do have friends with them and like to keep my ears open.
Good luck all.
jack


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Yes, thank you for posting that report.

I think it is general knowledge, that birds are affected by such things, far more then humans. It's one of the reasons why they use to take birds down into the coal mines, and why in the Iraq war we carried homing pigeons into battle in order to detect chemical agents, in case the equipment failed.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Beaverbandit and Action:
Thanks for bringing up the black nest pads and I sure do appreciate that report that someone sent for and got a link for us here on pigeon-talk---things like this we need to know about...Thanks again....c.hert


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Everything new!*

OK, Everything is new-Bowls-Pads-Birds have been scrubbed to death-LOL-This will be the 3rd round so eggs should be hatching soon. Lets hope for the best.
Jack


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sending prayers for great success!


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