# Color of this pigeon



## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

Hey guys,

Just wondering if you guys could tell me what color this bird is? It looks like a typical red bar but the color on the bars as well as the neck/head makes me thing there could be some indigo in it. Can anyone confirm what it is? The picture of the bird is not mine but of a rather well known fancier and I love the look of the bird and just find the subtle colors in the bars and neck/head rather interesting.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Very unusual coloring. But what a beautiful bird. Did you raise it? If so, what is that parent information? In my uneducated opinion, it looks to have some almond????? But what do I know about colors?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looks ash red spread. Roller bronze maybe to help keep the bars strong

we had a thread here a wee way back with an ash red spread roller that had strong bars like this. I have been conducting a few tests in my loft with similar birds and have noticed if an ash red roller carries roller bronze its bars do not Spread out in the same way they usually would. Something else going on to help darken the bird too.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Bars thru spread? Toy stencil


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

I know it's not toy or frill stencil. Don't know much about roller bronze....just thought there was indigo in it.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

This bird is not spread at all. Yes, even though we consider spread mutation as epistatic to pattern, in some spread birds we can see the pattern but not as clear as this bird in the picture. We see spread fully concealing the pattern when other darkening mutations are present in the gene pool like sooty, dirty, smoky, etc. In my opinion, this bird is a homozygous indigo bar. Indigo in homozygous state is often confused with ash-red. Notice the darkness of the head, which is a good indication that this bird is not ash-red. It looks like cock bird.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

amumtaz said:


> This bird is not spread at all. Yes, even though we consider spread mutation as epistatic to pattern, in some spread birds we can see the pattern but not as clear as this bird in the picture. We see spread fully concealing the pattern when other darkening mutations are present in the gene pool like sooty, dirty, smoky, etc. In my opinion, this bird is a homozygous indigo bar. Indigo in homozygous state is often confused with ash-red. Notice the darkness of the head, which is a good indication that this bird is not ash-red. It looks like cock bird.


It is a cock bird. I was thinking it was indigo due to the head and neck...thought maybe ash-red bar with indigo but as you know, my knowledge of genetics is very weak. 

Thanks


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> This bird is not spread at all. Yes, even though we consider spread mutation as epistatic to pattern, in some spread birds we can see the pattern but not as clear as this bird in the picture. We see spread fully concealing the pattern when other darkening mutations are present in the gene pool like sooty, dirty, smoky, etc. In my opinion, this bird is a homozygous indigo bar. Indigo in homozygous state is often confused with ash-red. Notice the darkness of the head, which is a good indication that this bird is not ash-red. It looks like cock bird.


Unfortunately the pictures are gone but we had a thread here a while ago where some rollers that had been test bred to be ash red and spread were showing very clear bars, I have had the same occurence in my loft with my rollers

The ones that are ash red spread and carry roller bronze show clear bars, the ones that do not carry roller bronze are normal ash red spreads. I will see If I can find the thread, I think the pics have been deleted though, If you were here at that time the overall consensus was that the birds has to be ash red spread as it was paired to a blue check and produced blacks in a breeding cage.


I thought Blue base with Indigo at first too but how do you explain the dark black flecking?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Here is the link to the pics http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2153

Here is the thread. Let me know what you think as I am interested for another opinion. there was a second thread that I cannot find but Rudolph and Becky had a look and thought the only option for this bird was spread. Like I say I have been doing some tests and it seems that Spread does not fade out the bronze bars. The birds are slightly different to the one in question and I agree it looks a lot like Indigo but why the dark flecks, If the bird was bar in pattern the flecking that occurs up the wing shield should be gray not black as that area of the bird would be showing tangled pigment.


If I get a chance to show some of my spread rollers they too show a lot of bar for spreads. They all came from a homozxygous spread cockbird too so no doubt whether they are spread
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/could-this-mealy-cock-be-spread-58533.html?highlight=mealey+spread


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

I just looked at the first link you provided. It baffles me why anyone might have thought that bird was spread. It is another indigo bar. Whatever the sub-terminal tail band does in the tail feathers, spread mutation does it in all over the bird. A spread ash-red would look like silver bird and you could not see those red brick bars on it. A spread indigo is called andalusion. It is normal for people to confuse the indigo and ash-red phenotypes because they do mimic each other. 

Flecking doesn’t only happen to ash-red birds. It is very, very, very common in indigo, all the almond series and grizzles. 

It is very easy for a T-pattern check bird to appear as spread if other darkening modifiers like sooty, smoky, dirty are present in the genotype.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> I just looked at the first link you provided. It baffles me why anyone might have thought that bird was spread. It is another indigo bar. Whatever the sub-terminal tail band does in the tail feathers, spread mutation does it in all over the bird. A spread ash-red would look like silver bird and you could not see those red brick bars on it. A spread indigo is called andalusion. It is normal for people to confuse the indigo and ash-red phenotypes because they do mimic each other.
> 
> Flecking doesn’t only happen to ash-red birds. It is very, very, very common in indigo, all the almond series and grizzles.
> 
> It is very easy for a T-pattern check bird to appear as spread if other darkening modifiers like sooty, smoky, dirty are present in the genotype.


Its an ash red spread on the other thread, If you saw the thread you would see how many pictures got shown of the offspring, They were in breeding cages and only produced blue checks and lavendars

I will get you some pics of my prooven ash red spreads that are very coarse and show bars, Not all ash red spreads appear silver but I do agree that your statement regarding the sub terminal bar being spread over the entire bird, in blue and brown this is always the case but in ash reds I have seen a lot of variation.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Here is a homozygous ash red spread T pattern, See how he is not plain silver, Now I admit his red areas are not as solid as this bird but he has produced barred offspring that carry roller bronze and show strong bars. I will get some pics tomorrow. All offspring from this bird have been either black or ash red spread and I have bred 27 birds from the pair.


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