# This is a weird one...



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I was watching a sick one in my local flock during the tail end of last week. It was always on the roof with the others but staying a bit off to the side, humped up, occasionally throwing up and fluffed as well. For a few days, there was no way on earth to catch it. However, I finally found it in the lawn on Sunday, still able to fly but vulnerable enough to be caught by an experienced person. 

Partially emaciated and a look down the mouth revealed what looked like a canker lesion at the back of the choanal slit (it's the cleft in the upper palate). It seemed a bit different to me in that it also had kind of a dark black center. There was also a lesion further down in the throat on the bottom side, but behind (lower than) the glottis (opening of the airway). That lesion was yellowish like typical canker lesions, but has a rough look about it. There are miniscule hills, valleys, peaks and the color varies more than a typical canker lesion. It would make you think more of candidiasis except that doesn't seem to be it either (can't find a hint of budding yeasts in the smears).

So, in true panic, I've treated him with Amprolium (Corid--for Coccidiosis) because initially there wasn't enough solids to even do a fecal; Metronidazole for the little bit of true canker present; Baytril for the usual suspects that Met doesn't get; and Nystatin for yeasts anyhow. Did I mention that I also hit him with Levamisole in there for a day or so to worm him?

What I'm pretty sure has happened to the poor fellow (the result not the cause) is that his GI has been scrapped from stem to stern. He had a load of stuff in the crop which still hasn't worked out in all this time (5 days now). He has also been going through water (it's been going through him, anyhow) like it's been going out of style (kinda' makes you think of heavy metal poisoning). He also does a funny thing--you can give him a load of thin Kaytee and it won't go through unless you give him the water to drink, too. He also stands kinda' up tall and leaning a bit back to do that to, I guess, let gravity work.

So, he obviously doesn't have ANY GI motility. It's probably too messed up for that now. So, besides the meds, what I've learned to do is manage his water intake periods. I give him the Kaytee and give him a quick smaller drink afterward. Then, I take the water away for a few hours to let the food actually digest. After that, he gets more water to push it out and make way for the next load. So far, he's holding his own but this has been a really strange deal. Maybe we've seen things similar before in the weird stances for some of the sick birds but haven't realized why they were doing it. I still don't know but this deal ain't over yet. Wish him luck. The worst part is I have to go away for the weekend and the neighbor kid is going to have to do the feeding. At least I think we've got the method worked out.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 



Some of this sounds familiar...


I have seen some possible Canker in throats which was very funny looking, more like a slime mold or shiny, yellow, moulded-to-fit plastic stuff...this was more difficult to abate than regular looking Canker in throats, and I did best with the 'Berimax' with these.


Anyway, yeeeeesh, poor fellow...


How about the ACV-Water for drinking and formula mixing, for this situation?


I think it is bound to help...!


"Nutrical", generously added to the 'K-T', also will do him a world of good...digests easily, chock full of great stuff for his system and getting some calories and enzymes, easy to tube when mixed in formula...and, also a good slug of Goji-Berry juice or concentrate in the formula...


Skip the weekend thing and stay home..!


He needs you!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's not an ordinary weekend so skipping it isn't an option.

As to Trichomoniasis (Canker), I'd have felt better about it being that one if only I'd found some in a swab smear or fecal. I just didn't. Frankly, it's the utter lack of shiny-ness of the lesions that's most worrisome. The little one in the choana gave up and left in one day. The very large one further down has a dry look about it. To tell the truth, I'd tend more toward thinking it was a chemical burn from having eaten granulated lawn fertilizer. I've no idea if that ever happens but I've always wondered.

I really only posted about this because in order to offer a thought about the bird's behavior in case anyone ever sees something like it. I only finally came to the idea that that's why the bird was drinking and standing like that after having watched it for several days. He's upchucked precious little of the stuff that's in the crop and you can feel several bits in there like corn and peas.

Frankly, it's tough to say how it's going to end up but it could be anywhere from a ton of scar tissue throughout the GI to the point that he'd need to be fed Kaytee for the rest of his life just to manage standing around, to the opposite extreme of complete recovery.

What certainly wouldn't work in this bird's case is solid food. So far, he can neither grind it up nor push it through. Personally, my feelings are that the most significant thing I've done is feed him the Kaytee and learn how to properly do it for his condition, which is still completely uncertain. He does look better today than he has all week--he was one real sadsack when I finally got him and now he looks like a fairly regular pigeon and standing proudly to boot (but he has to).

He actually shunned the heat of the heat lamp, though. I kinda' wondered if the water actually had a cooling effect. If you'll remember, that one bird that I got that almost had the leg severed off was standing in the water, probably more to cool the intense fever of the leg and surrounding tissue than anything else. And BB, Moxie's bird with all the feather and necrotic garbage stuffed into the leg wound, ultimately did the same thing by way of standing in her water dish. Maybe this bird was using the water to cool his GI, just don't know.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Pidgey,

I hope this one will pull through for you. It is a weird case. Best of luck to you and this pijjie.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Hope I did not appear disjunctive or annoying there...sorry...


The term 'lesion' when applied to actual 'things' which exist ON the flesh or tissue, as Canker 'cubes' or Canker appearing as 'yellow, small curd cottage cheeze lumps' are sometimes referred to as "lesions"...

Verses 'lesions' meaning a disruption of tissue or injury to it where no foreign colony or firm exudae or organism-infestation-mass or small organic yet foreign objects are there at all.

So, I was imagining you were describing actual things ON his throat tissue, and not chemical burns "to" the tissue, so I did not have the same picture you did, since I am in no position to see it like you are, with the Bird in front of me.


I too worry about them eating chemical fertalizers, snail poison pellets, and other small seed-size nastys...


What about some "Pepto-Bismall" for his woes? Any chance that might answer some of it?

What are the usual antidotes for say Ammonium Nitrate?


Is there any smell or odor to his breath or open mouth?


Any smell to the Bird globally?


Most fertalizers, once damp, will have some smell to them...


Best wishes..!


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I wasn't grousing, I was more just saying that I sure didn't have much, if any, idea what this was. Since I'd been watching him for several days, I was kinda' of the impression that something had done quite a bit of damage and didn't even need to be there anymore. He did have a slight sour-crop smell for that first day but he's been odorless ever since. For all I know, this could be the beginning of a nasty case of PMV with a bad hit to the GI and kidneys.

He really is doing a lot better now. He's standing on a brick and I just caught him reaching up with one foot and scratching his face for a bit. That's so far from what he felt like doing three days ago that I nearly danced a jig. You gotta' wonder about yourself when something like that makes your day. 

Anyhow, the training session with the neighbors went well and I made them feed him so they'd get it. I'm going to leave medicated Kaytee powder in prepackaged meals with the medicated water and a small measure so that mixing will be a breeze. He's mostly going to be on Nystatin and Metronidazole (powdered and in the Kaytee) and a Coccidiostat in the water.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Pidgey

Sounds to me like you are covering your bases well, I as well wonder sometimes about them eating lawn fertilizer and such.

The only two things I can think of are:



> He's upchucked precious little of the stuff that's in the crop and you can feel several bits in there like corn and peas.


perhaps doing a crop flush to get what is in there and not going through out. The bird I had, that had GI issues last year, needed this to be done a few times when I first was trying to figure out what was going on with her. Things always improved a lot, in terms of mobility, for her crop afterward. The other thing was the vet prescribeds some Reglan for her, .50mg more or less (I say more or less because he prescribed 5mg tablets that I didvided into 4 and then divided these into halfs' again, the best I could, and disolved a piece into 1mL of water and tubed), one half hour before feeding her her Kay-Tee and this helped her dramatically in having things move through at a more normal rate.

Good luck with the little guy,

Ron


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeon stretching and standing tall to get nutrients down*

Hello Pidgey and all, 

Quote from an earlier post of mine from November 6, 2006 11:27 PM German Central European Time: 



> I did a postmortem dissection on pigeon *Carter* last week in an attempt to find out why he was making unusual (to me) motions with his head and neck, moving his head from right to left, while a small mass or bulge in his crop the size of an olive went from right to left. (Imagine trying to move your Adam's apple/larynx to the side of your neck). At the time I first saw him do it, I felt -- perhaps timidly, or not thoroughly enough -- but detected nothing unusual. His breast/crop area felt firm. He had food, or some obstruction such as hard french fries, volume equivalent to a walnut, in his crop (and proventricula).


In order to move his head and neck in such a manner, he had to raise up and stretch (his neck) a bit, a minor detail I failed to add. A bit of a clockwise, circular motion with his head when the pigeon is viewed from the front. Raise the head/stretch the neck, then lower the head/shorten the neck to try to push the mass to the pigeon's left. 

Later I read somewhere (on PT?) that when tube or crop needle feeding a bird, the feeder should aim for the bird's right side of the throat, since the trachea (tracheal opening at the base of the tongue) is on the bird's left side of te neck and the crop hangs to the right of the neck. In my linked necropsy photos the relative position of the trachea to the spinal column is evident. 

I still have a piece of the stuff I removed from his crop. After drying, it seems to be a piece of overcooked or crispy French fry with a pointed end which was lodged in the crop close to the opening between the crop and the proventriculum, helping to block the opening.

As you or Phil/pdpbison speculated at that time or later (if I recall correctly), the blockage may have contributed to his starvation, or he may have had some primary disease, and the French fries were simply an artifact (or artefact: British spelling. Wasn't sure, looked it up, both spellings correct) of a more recent or later meal.

At any rate, stretching the neck seems consistent with an attempt by the pigeon to be comfortable or less pained in dealing with mechanical blockage -- perhaps caused by the canker or whatever -- while ingesting food. 

Hope I'm not sidetracking here.

Best of luck with this pigeon (and all others).

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pidgey,

What you are seeing could be the "penguin posture" associated with proventricular and crop pain. Dr Colin Walker (the Flying Vet) lists this as a symptom of canker. Only one of my rescues adopted this posture after eating. There was no sign of canker in his mouth but he had breathing difficulties and died 2 days after I found him. I had treated him for canker and with Baytril for the apparent respiratory infection. Alison in Devon has had a few pigeons with the same symptoms die and suspects it is aspergillosis that affects them.

Beatriz, the white pigeon that I suspected of having ornithosis, had a recurring white bead appearing in the choanal slit. The vet said that it was canker, but treatment didn't budge it...in fact while she was on medication for canker the bead grew to cover part of roof of the mouth. I suspect that it was respiratory exudate and removed it using a Q tip. I check her mouth regularly and she is clear of any suspicious "lesions" now.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Hello Pidgey and all,
> 
> Quote from an earlier post of mine from November 6, 2006 11:27 PM German Central European Time:
> 
> ...




Hi Larry, 


We often make small deteurs to revisit ancillary interests...

But yes, these odd head and neck twisty stretchy-movements, and movements of the Crop also, variously...

A piece of dessicated French Fry can kill them, or it just as itself can lead to other problems which do...with no primary illness needed prior to the Fry.

Foreign objects of any kind, worst of all maybe, if 'sharp' in some way, can make serious troubles, popinty ends semi-puncturing ot irritating inside the Crop.

These also can lead to Candida or Yeats getting going in these scrapes or scratches, or damaging tissues, or just the bacteria attatching itself to the object or fry, which then makes everything worse of course.


Sometimes they throw these objects up.



I had a Squeaker last year who threw up an almost two inch long piece of nasty, old, dry, hard French Fry...

All was soon well with him then...but I was about ready to take him to the Vet, have an incision made, and get whatever WAS in there, 'out'...so, his throwing it up was much more elegant and easy for everyone.


Candida or Yeast infections from other causes will see them make these odd head-neck stretches, and Crop movements also, in adult Pigeons I mean...

If we see these of movements, it is good to really thoroughly palpate and feel and sort of gently pinch their Crop to see if one can locate what might be a foreign object in there. This can be hard to do, and one needs to come back and do it quite a few times, since how some things can sit in there make them ellusive.


Too, they can get abcesses from something pokeing them inside the Crop, something that might not even be there any more...and these are serious...they can be 'hard' one day, or firm, then become hydrated, then appear gone for being soft then...


Anyway...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> What you are seeing could be the "penguin posture" associated with proventricular and crop pain. Dr Colin Walker (the Flying Vet) lists this as a symptom of canker. Only one of my rescues adopted this posture after eating. There was no sign of canker in his mouth but he had breathing difficulties and died 2 days after I found him. I had treated him for canker and with Baytril for the apparent respiratory infection. Alison in Devon has had a few pigeons with the same symptoms die and suspects it is aspergillosis that affects them.
> 
> ...



Hi Cynthia, 



"Penguin Posture"...good term...!


Both of the recent 'Henderson' Pigeons I had brought to me showed this posture...the small one much more than the larger one.





Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I've no doubt the bird was in pain when I first got it but he seems to be in better shape now. He just had "that look" about him back then. I looked down the esophagus with an otoscope yesterday evening to get a better look at that lesion. It's got the character of a scab and the color of canker, but with uncharacteristic irregularities. It's a broad area about 1/4" wide and at least that deep. It's kinda' tough to see down beyond that and I'd have to set up the cystoscope. If I hadn't been so blasted busy-beyond-belief this week, I'd a'done it but I'm exhausted and have to stop each night by sheer force of will. Sleeping hasn't been good. C'est la vie!

Incidentally, this bird's breathing has been the one good thing--it's slow, steady and untroubled.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He's doing pretty good now--the neighbors did a good job and he's eating solid food this morning quite well. His water intake has throttled back and his poops are getting a lot better. They're out of the true diarrhea class and heading towards just being regular poop with a bit of water. The lesion down the throat is gone now so one or more of the meds (probably) did the job.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, that is great news. You may have converted your neighbors to being rehabbers.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,



Glad to hear things are improving..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the neurological symptoms started on this one during this last week so I'd say we've got a PMV bird here. They're fairly light but unmistakable. Can't say for sure but maybe the strain around here is like the vets said--mostly affecting the guts and kidneys. If you leave this guy alone and don't startle him, he mostly stands fairly normal anymore. It's only when he's surprised or stressed that he starts doing the PMV things.

But his poops are good now.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I was wondering how this little one was doing! I must have missed the updates somehow!

Does he/she have a name???

Love Hugs and Scritches to the little one! Continued healing thoughts for full recovery!!

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...Oye...


What do you do Pidgey, for Quarenteen in situations like this? 


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, the neighbor kid that I enlisted to help while we were gone gave him a name: Second Chance.

It's not easy--I just put them in a cage far away from others and follow a strict hand-washing policy. I also take care of him last. He's in the living room right now.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, although he's still having fits from time to time (especially when startled), he can stand on one foot for extended periods, scratch his face with his foot, self-eat, drink and preen again. We're getting near the end of the worst of it finally.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Been a long haul with this little guy, hasn't it. Glad to hear he is doing better.

How much damage do you think his GI suffered from his initial sickness?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Probably a lot, but I don't know if there was any permanent damage. And the kidneys. Anything the least bit of a surprise makes him spin his head upside down, always rolled counterclockwise when viewing face on to the bird. I seem to get more progress out of him when I take him for walks and he has to get used to the hustle and bustle of the world around him. When he gets more isolation with nothing moving or changing in the living room, he doesn't seem to progress at all. I figure that whatever disease it was, it's pretty much gone now and all we've got left to do is rewire the brain a little bit. You should have seen him when I was holding him on his side so that with his neck twisted he was still able to look upon his old haunts somewhat normally. You could see him focusing on this and that and remembering. He didn't fight to try and take off (still a long way to go before that's going to be a possibility) but you could tell that it definitely had his interest.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wow...


Good work..!


Will you release him if and when he seems returned to normal?


I have what I take to be a new PPMV Pigeon also, similar to yours, if starteld ( and he startles easy) he has some mild head twisting sessions and or almost twists his whole budy into a sideways sumersault......otherwise acts normal enough aside from looking 'off' a little...

Maybe has some Parlor Tumbler genes???


Oye...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Been a loooog haul for Chance!! Sure hope he does well and will make a full recovery!

Of course, Squeaks and I send our BEST HEALING THOUGHTS with LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES!

Please keep us updated!

Anything to add to the Mort Report?

Shi & Squeaks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Chance is filling out very well now, actually in as good of shape as they get. It'll be another few weeks before Chance can be put out in the loft, though.

Mort's a broken record. Same thing every day. I never see any indication that Mort's got any kind of sweetheart out in the loft.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Chance is filling out very well now, actually in as good of shape as they get. It'll be another few weeks before Chance can be put out in the loft, though.
> 
> Mort's a broken record. Same thing every day. *I never see any indication that Mort's got any kind of sweetheart out in the loft*.
> 
> Pidgey


Gee, do you think Mort might be a *little* spoiled, coming in each night? You think he would jeopardize that and livin' the life of Riley??? I don't think so...hens can wait... 

Love, Hug and Scritches to all, with some extra for Chance!

Shi


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I can't tell you for sure that Mort's not a hen, anyhow. Mort loves the skritching in the early mornings while I'm half asleep. If I fall back asleep in the middle of petting Mort (and therefore stop) I get pecked back awake so I can get back to the job. Mort's not spoiled, just a pigeon-of-habit according to Lin.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I can't tell you for sure that Mort's not a hen, anyhow. Mort loves the skritching in the early mornings while I'm half asleep. If I fall back asleep in the middle of petting Mort (and therefore stop) I get pecked back awake so I can get back to the job. *Mort's not spoiled, just a pigeon-of-habit according to Lin.*
> 
> Pidgey


Lin is HALF correct: HABIT-ually being spoiled!!!


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

I think I like Mort.  

A bird that demands to have a scritching job finished is a bird that knows the value of a good job well done. You must be good with your hands.  

I hope Chance makes it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Chance's battle isn't to live, it's to live without doing headstands too many times in an hour so that he (or she; not sure) can go out to the loft someday. Otherwise, Chance is doing just fine.

However, I'm sure Chance will enjoy me passing along your good wishes by way of safflower seeds.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Chance is finally doing much better, without the seizures that she used to have. It's looking like she'll be able to go out in the loft within a month or so.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Chance flies out of her cage every time that I leave the cage top open. She inevitably walks to the back door to look out on the yard she used to play in. Yesterday, as I was holding her in the living room, she took off out of my hands and actually managed to fly down in a somewhat controlled fashion if a bit jerky. She's getting there.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Little steps. Sometimes that's all it takes.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT NEWS about Chance, Pidgey!!

Squeaks and I are wishing her all the best and a healthier long life!

Love, Hugs and Scritches!

Shi & Squeaks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Second Chance has now been out in the loft for a few weeks. I have a difficult time even telling who she is now, she's acting so normal. I started taking her out there to look around and play for short periods and I think it gave her a new interest in life to be around the other pigeons. It didn't take but about one partial day of her being out there that she started complaining quite audibly when put back in her quarantine cage in the house. Long and loud. And constant.

Nothing whatsoever has changed about Mort. Mort still comes in every night and gets a fresh drink of water, first thing. Mort still roosts up on the bedroom door. Is still spoiled. Doesn't appear to be courting anyone in the loft.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT NEWS, Pidgey...many thanks for the updates!!!

BUT, what will Mort do if you and Lin go away for a few days??? Who will he wake up in the morning? He will hate not coming in the house at night!

I worry about stuff like that...and I'm sure Unie might be a little lonely...

Shi (a.k.a. worrywort)
Squeaks (a.k.a. worrywort 2)


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## Caliandra (Aug 29, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Foreign objects of any kind, worst of all maybe, if 'sharp' in some way, can make serious troubles, popinty ends semi-puncturing ot irritating inside the Crop.


which explains why the pidgies at the cinema prefer popcorn (unpopped) as opposed to cracked yellow corn. I bought wild bird mix and it was 65 percent cracked corn, or if not, it seemed like it. They don't like eating it at all, so I try to throw alot out and hope that other types of birds finish off the corn...


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