# Sticky  The Difference Between Various Breeds of Rollers



## birdbum

I have two questions.

1) What is the difference between each roller breed? Such as an American Roller vs. a Birmingham Roller, or an Oriental, or a Performing Roller? I know that there are probably more but these are the main breeds I've happened across at shows, along with Parlors (which I think are incredible).

2) I have a roller of my own and I'm not sure which breed she is. I don't have a picture of her right now, but I can snap one of her tomorrow and upload it. Is it possible to help me find out her breed by just looking at her?

Here's a picture of Infiniti, my roller on the left next to one of my homers.
is it possible to tell what breed she is?


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## bluecheck

*1) What is the difference between each roller breed? Such as an American Roller vs. a Birmingham Roller, or an Oriental, or a Performing Roller? I know that there are probably more but these are the main breeds I've happened across at shows, along with Parlors (which I think are incredible).*

Okay, the differences between an Oriental Roller and all the others is easy. An Oriental is a bigger bird with dropped wings and, quite honestly, seems to be the ancestor to most, if not all, the other rolling breeds. You can see a lot of shots of Oriental Rollers at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/uora then just click on the various links on the home page. Orientals can be fantastic in the air and they are also bred for show. The main clubs in the U.S. for them are the United Oriental Roller Association and the Flying Oriental Roller Society. 

Birminghams, as the name indicates, were created and flown in northern England. They're a smaller bird than the Oriental, about the size of a feral pigeon. To the uniformed, they look like "common pigeons", but they tend to be more upright, have a higher forehead frontal, and spin. Birminghams, West of England Tumblers, and Tipplers all seem to have had a common ancestry and then diverged as they were bred for various types of flying - the Wests being more long flying and only tumbling two or three times; the tipplers for extended endurance flying (personally, I think they have some Indian ancestry in them from Brits returning home with high flying pets from India during the 19th century); the Birminghams for deep and sustained rolls.

You can see a lot of Birminghams at various sites on line, but check out the http://www.nbrconline.com

Performing Rollers are simply Birminghams that are flown - to often separate them from Show Rollers, which were bred from the Birminghams sometime during the 1970's on. The Show Rollers are a much bigger, more massive bird, that is strictly a show bird now. Here's a website of one of their master breeders with lots of pics of the birds as well. http://www.showrollers.com/

American Roller are smaller than the Birminghams, more on the size of a Parlor. I've heard a few different views of where they come from - the most common one is that they are a continuation of the line of rollers that were common in the States before the heavy importation of the Birminghams from England in the 1930's on. http://www.americanrollerclub.com/ http://www.cichlidlovers.com/birds_nahfr.htm (this has the history of the North American High Flying rollers from this loft of them going back to the 1800's) This looks to be another example of some renaming and one line going one way to show and one to flying -- I'm not an expert on these by any means, but note that the first club looks to be mainly show, while the older man's loft looks to be a flying one.

There's also the American Flying Tumblers. Here's the history as they state it at the club website: http://www.boomspeed.com/olag/aft/history.htm

As for the Parlor - there seems to be no doubt at all that they were created in Scotland in the 19th Century and seem to have been bred by breeding deeper and deeper rollers together - possibly with a cross of an Indian ground tumbling bird called the Lotan, though that seems to be less likely and even if it happened the genetic material from such a cross would long have been swamped out.

Parlors can often fly while young. Some of the best Parlor Rollers in the world can be viewed at: http://www.angelfire.com/super2/04footerparlorroller/index.html

The West of England Tumbler (there is an American version and a British verson and they are so different as to be actually two separate breeds) can be seen here http://www.nwoetc.com/ (these are the American version and almost totally a show breed now) Here are some pics of the British West of England Tumblers 

The British version of the Wests (and the one they claim IS the West) is a taller, rangier bird with only small muffs and which is apparently still flown in England as a Tumbler. http://www.national-federation.co.uk/cbchoc.jpg http://www.national-federation.co.uk/rb3.jpg 

The American version, at least some of them, will still go up and tumble occasionally - -I used to fly a pair, a black male and a brown female (both baldheads) and the female would tumble all the time in series of two or three, while the male never did.

And yes, there are literally hundreds more tumbler breeds, including some that I intend to have at some point - the various Turkish tumblers. http://www.turkishtumblers.com/

BTW - Birdbum, your bird looks to be a Birmingham.

Frank Mosca


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## birdbum

Thank you Frank! I don't think that I would have known that without your help.


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## bigislerollers

Aloha Frank,

That was a very good post. I wonder if a moderator/administrator could "*sticky*" this post as it has a lot of valuable info for anyone interested in "rollers".


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## Skyeking

bigislerollers said:


> Aloha Frank,
> 
> That was a very good post. I wonder if a moderator/administrator could "*sticky*" this post as it has a lot of valuable info for anyone interested in "rollers".


Why, I think that is an excellent idea, so be it!


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## bigislerollers

Thank you Treesa.


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## juanputik

hi there...where can i buy roller pigeons? is it the same with tipplers?


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## bigislerollers

Aloha Juanputik,
Your best bet in locating rollers is to find someone locally where you can see the rollers in the air before you purchase them. You can also try posting in the NBRC forum here. 

NBRC

You can also check the club listing on the NBRC site to see if there is a club near you.

*"is it the same with tipplers?" *
If you're asking if rollers and tipplers are the same, than its a no, they are not the same. Rollers are bred for their rolling ability and tipplers are bred for their ability to fly for hours.

Hope this helps.


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## Jastreb

One thing that I noticed here is that people seem to think that roller is a breed. There was that question in what colors do rollers come in, when there are "hundredths" of roller breeds. Each has its own standard, look different, perform different, and come in different/or the same colors.

In my opinion the word roller should come with a prefix. *Oriental *roller, *Birmingham *roller


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## fresnobirdman

theres a simple answer to it, fly it!

if it can roll a good depth of 10 or more feet, its a preforming roller,
if it olny flips its a show bird.

has less 12 or less tails, not a oriental, (orientals have 13 tails)

if it does nothing, then its a color bird, was bread for the color, mixed with all kinds of birds.


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## UncleBuck

Great Thread!
I like the line about selling the birds - If you sell it, list it properly. When I was a kid I saw rollers (Birmingham and the graham fireballs) for the first time and wanted some. I bought some at a show and I was lucky if they would flip once or twice.
Then a gentleman who was into real rolling, flying rollers gave me a couple of pairs. He also told me that I should never buy a roller if I had not seen it flying. I understand now what he was talking about.
But there are also people that enjoy the rollers for show, color ad all sorts of other reasons that do not include rolling.


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## fresnobirdman

Dido?
wtf is that?
that hen does not look too young,
if you got a 6 month old hen, and it only flips, hahaha
its as good as gone.
at 6 months it should show good progress.
even late bloomers like pemson birds can roll 5 feet at 6 months, and by 2 years,
it will make your eyes pop out!

no preforming roller should take a year to FlIP!

just fly it man, as easy as that!


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## TAWhatley

fresnobirdman said:


> Dido?
> WHAT is that?


I think he meant ditto, and kindly watch your abbreviations here.

Terry


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## TAWhatley

Well, I gotta say this .. I read a major roller pigeon list just about everyday, and I am appalled each and every day at the lack of consideration or courtesy the members have towards one another and am absolutely horrified at some of the cold and callous comments made about the birds. This kind of stuff will NOT fly here on Pigeon-Talk, so if you've got something to say, try to say it politely and keep in mind that culling is a very hot button word and subject here.

Terry


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## fresnobirdman

TAWhatley said:


> I think he meant ditto, and kindly watch your abbreviations here.
> 
> Terry


will some one kindly tell me what that is.


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## TAWhatley

fresnobirdman said:


> will some one kindly tell me what that is.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ditto

In the context here, I believe blkramhemi was saying he agreed with what you posted and would have posted the same.

Terry


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## yellowking

lol. This is funny.


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## wcspinner

*Birmingham Rollers*

If you are interested in the different breeds of rollers, or strains of Birmingham Rollers check out my web site for more information. www.rickmeerollers.com


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## AllAroundAnimal

Nice Post - Lots Of Good Information - I learned alot , Thanks ! Peace !


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## AllAroundAnimal

*Wow !*



yellowking said:


> lol. This is funny.



Hey yellow -- this was unexpected ... but cool - we can speak again ! ( I will Be Much safer This Time ) Hows the rollers going -- of course now that i'm really getting into pigeons -- i am switchen over to some saddles and also very interested in some rollers - met Dan ( Urban Hunter ) and he gave me a pair of homers - What a nice guy -- maybe someday I'll be getting some rollers from you - Nice seeing you on here -- Talk more L8R Peace ! Mike


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## AllAroundAnimal

*Culling Is Killing !*



TAWhatley said:


> Well, I gotta say this .. I read a major roller pigeon list just about everyday, and I am appalled each and every day at the lack of consideration or courtesy the members have towards one another and am absolutely horrified at some of the cold and callous comments made about the birds. This kind of stuff will NOT fly here on Pigeon-Talk, so if you've got something to say, try to say it politely and keep in mind that culling is a very hot button word and subject here.
> 
> Terry


 Thank You -- As I Believe The word Culling is spelled different but with the same meaning as Killing - and it should be band -- My Name states why ! Just because one feels this pigeon isn't worthy doesn't meen someone else feels that way - Give it to a beginner , Sell it at Low Cost -- or let it go -- if they won't ban it by law i believe we in this forum should ban even using the word ! Peace !


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## velo99

WOW 
Where did that come from?


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## DannysDoos

Is this a show type Birmingham Roller?


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## Keith C.

It looks like a show roller, though they usually have more of an upright carriage.
In my experience, show rollers are mean. They will wing slap you or bite you anytime you get close. They act very similar to a modena, which has been added for size and build.
I much prefer flying type Birmingham rollers.


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## DannysDoos

Keith C. said:


> It looks like a show roller, though they usually have more of an upright carriage.
> In my experience, show rollers are mean. They will wing slap you or bite you anytime you get close. They act very similar to a modena, which has been added for size and build.
> I much prefer flying type Birmingham rollers.


Yeah, he is a bit of a meany! He usually does carry himself straighter, must have been in a huff in those pics!


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## spirit wings

AllAroundAnimal said:


> Thank You -- As I Believe The word Culling is spelled different but with the same meaning as Killing - and it should be band -- My Name states why ! Just because one feels this pigeon isn't worthy doesn't meen someone else feels that way - Give it to a beginner , Sell it at Low Cost -- or let it go -- if they won't ban it by law i believe we in this forum should ban even using the word ! Peace !


culling by definition does not mean to kill it simply states:

"Something picked out from others, especially something rejected because of inferior quality."

what they do after that...well some do the K word and it is not talked of on this site as far as I know., alot say cull.. but they do find good homes for their "culls"... any breeder can use that word..it does not mean kill... you can cull the bad peanuts from the group..but someone else may still use them.. for something..so you see it does not actually mean the K word..


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## RodSD

I define my "culls" as my "rejects" or basically they don't have the characteristics that I am looking for. Nevertheless, one of my "culls" is an excellent foster parents so I use them all the time. Not all culls are hopeless! They might have some uses or some good characteristics.


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## pigeon is fun

juanputik said:


> hi there...where can i buy roller pigeons? is it the same with tipplers?


check out Keithc web site


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## Bezz

Hi

How does one pair your performing rollers?

1) Those that tumbles the longest with each other?
2) One that tumbles long with one that tumbles short?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!

Bezz


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## blkramhemi

heres my 2cents on Breeding.... 

Hope this helps....


It all depends on your definition of a Roll ( The Roll you want, and would like to see... ) DO NOT compare your birds to what you see from other familys of rollers.. there all different... every roller is not of equal.. sorry!!! you have to be really stern on breeding, or youll end up with way more than you ask for.. 

Pairing is of your choice.. though one rule is to Breed Your Quality Rollers, youll know whos Top in your Stock, its that one that takes your breath, and if you dont see that after your trial run of atleast a year of intense training that kit.. then start over till you get that breath taker, THEN when you do LOCK HE OR SHE AWAY and breed off it, then your start of Rollers begins.. if it doesnt have the it factor, its not a Roller, do not breed it....


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## Bezz

blkramhemi said:


> heres my 2cents on Breeding....
> 
> Hope this helps....
> 
> 
> It all depends on your definition of a Roll ( The Roll you want, and would like to see... ) DO NOT compare your birds to what you see from other familys of rollers.. there all different... every roller is not of equal.. sorry!!! you have to be really stern on breeding, or youll end up with way more than you ask for..
> 
> Pairing is of your choice.. though one rule is to Breed Your Quality Rollers, youll know whos Top in your Stock, its that one that takes your breath, and if you dont see that after your trial run of atleast a year of intense training that kit.. then start over till you get that breath taker, THEN when you do LOCK HE OR SHE AWAY and breed off it, then your start of Rollers begins.. if it doesnt have the it factor, its not a Roller, do not breed it....


Thanks my Friend, i think i know what you say and wil try it!!!

Bezz


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## laughingdog

any types or crosses or rollers that have thirteen or more tails, or any pigeons in general? i got these rollers, and at first looked to be just like orientals, but lately holding tails down when hunkered down on perches, and one think male has fourteen tails, one think female has eighteen tails, and the almost seeming out of the squeker phase two, have sixteen. originally only counted thirteen tails on each and was told on here was probably performing orientals, they were just sold as rollers, and the one i like with grizzled color and pattern, seems to have fantail more like the fantails they were also selling, also large and have alot of white almost like some homers another had, but these were from a kids pets he was selling some off of so got a deal to take all four instead of just the pair. though these four and the fantails were in seperate cages from each kind. any ideas? i dont really mind what they are as long as perform and home at least and fly, but finding differant training methods for differant breeds, so just curious. im not good with the digital and computer age..


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## norwich

It almost sounds like you have some Fantail crosses. Joe


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## laughingdog

does anyone know how many tail feathers fantails have, or how the mixes would look? one person on here just put up pics of eight new rollers they got, and look like mine, but said they were birmingham rollers. do mutts generally roll? or would hinder performances if birmingham, oriental, fantail, or what not? theyve rolled or what not, when let out inside to exercise a bit, but only flipped etc while cornered, but adults fly well, byt squeakers not so well.. any way to tell ages of birds if still squeaking but not alot anymore, getting testier by the day, and fully feathered?


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## Alan Bliven

Oriental Rollers have 14-20 tail feathers. The flying type does perform. The show type might and might not. The show type is larger and looser feathered. The flying type are smaller than Homers and a little larger than Birminghams

Here's some pictures of my flying type.


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## laughingdog

..........


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## NZ Pigeon

fresnobirdman said:


> will some one kindly tell me what that is.


Ditto means, " I Agree " or " The same as "


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## laughingdog

im just so fed up with pretty but useless show birds said to be the same or better than actual performing breeds they are called. call them designer non performing show names, not the name they are so far from. its like selling someone a collie and telling them itll herd, then alls it does is act like a liability and nuisance!


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## fantailgyrl

*have a question*

i just bought 2 pairs of uzbeck tumblers medium faced and i want to let them hatch a few rounds what size npa band do they wear and what other band would they need if i wanted to show them also

thanks 
kira


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## polo963

so is it roller with long wings rollers?


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## NZ Pigeon

polo963 said:


> so is it roller with long wings rollers?


Sorry, what?


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## bobbyfagan

I just bought a pair of rollers o hope they Will do roll


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## birdogron

Hey fresnobirdman; I'm in Merced and just learning about Rollers. When I say learning, I mean I have no birds and am in the process of building a kit box. If you don't mind, I will check with you to see if you know of any for sale since you live so close. I've been using youtube, but I find a lot of info on this site. Thanks for any input.


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## laughingdog

*rollers*

Most widely accepted definitions of more common/popular birmingham rollers i can find are: 
a pigeons that tucks in flipping/doing backwards somersaults repeatedly in rapid succession , looking like a ball or doughnut as falling dropping straight down. Any loose or inconsistent or breaking rolls is still considered a tumbler.
all rollers are tumblers, but rollers bred competition style to kit close and roll together straight and tight. anything that does anything else still tumbler (personally i enjoy tumblers more varied twizzles etc, and they're natural BOP evaders and even tease them).

Any bird that constantly rolls ten to twenty or more feet, is considered a decent to good birmingham roller.

My birmingham rollers only roll for thirty feet average (i culled the twenty footers..), and best two hens are rolling: forty, and fifty feet!

any bird that rolls down or is a "bumper" (can't control roll or stop), and can be great stock bird bred to another "bumper", or bad or non rolling roller (show type rollers for looks only that cannot roll, still carry great roller genes a lotwhen expressesd by being bred to performance stock). Bumpers that cannot learn to stop rolling should be stocked or culled, as they can bring down rest of kit and endanger all and self.

kit being flock of pigeons kept and trained to fly together in close group and then perform together.

stocking being to put bird up and not fly anymore at time, either to breed or rest the bird.

culling, to take bird out of your flock or stock and give away, sell, eat, or oyherwise hopefully humanely destroy. i just pop the head off, skin, take excellent breast meat, then toss rest to other animals. no waste or dishoner to the life that was taken. 
respect, gentleness, and also basic facts of life are a few things one should get out of hobby of pigeon keeping.


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## birdogron

Laughingdog, thank you, thank you. Another one of many questions answered. The way I understand it is "all rollers are tumblers, but not all tumblers are rollers." Can you tell me if while the male is sitting on eggs or caring for the young, do they still get out to fly or are they locked up with the young? My plans call for a kit box 3 1/2 feet by 7'. Split down the middle with a removable divider. I am thinking of putting the divider to allow one side 4' and the other 3' for the breeding side. Is that doable? I don't want to crowd the birds and stress them and am limited on space. Thanks for any help you can give.


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## birdogron

Well I'm not well versed at Rollers, but I have a lot of experience with culling. As a gun dog trainer, mostly English Pointers and GSP's. We use catapult traps to place the pigeon in. When we are at the point to introducing the dogs to being steady (not move at wing and shot), we remotely release the pigeon and he goes back home or wherever he finds a girlfriend. We then fire a blank pistol. Later in training, while teaching the retrieve we do shoot the bird making sure the dogs don't take a step. We release whichever dog we choose to retrieve. End of day, breast the birds and fire up the grill. By the way, the reason we train with pigeons when we are actually hunting quail is two fold. Pigeons have a huge scent cone and if you screw up training a dog on quail, the dog may not want to hunt. That's it. Now with arthritis on my knee, I'm not going to climb mountains all day in the deserts of Arizona. Pigeon training seems to be for me. I eat and sleep this stuff. Waiting for the day I have a tight kit and some remarkable birds, and birds that learn they can trust me. Culling is a fact of life, just don't be cruel.


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## laughingdog

In breeding pens, I'm going to get some flack but.. i believe each pair needs to be separated for breeding. yes some who have all line bred great same birds don't notice that pigeons are in fact as monogamus as any other animal and "accidents" happen and eggs get layed in wrong nests. just what this rookie has seen so far. yes as rollers especially ipitimize defects in bird world, over doing natural tumbler abilities to evade and display mating behavor etc, in so your least best rollers tend to pair up leaving best rollers to pair up generally. id rather play match maker and breed from exactly what i want to see each together from performances eye signs shape endurance pred evasion and ability to thrive in this captive lesser more artificial etc environment (yeseven though they come from cavernous cavernous rock cliff type island home originally).

Most commercial breeders use 24"x 24"x 24" cages.
i find my birds stay cleaner stronger and breed year round if let them without wearing out as most others say theirs do needing big break between each clutch, by providing pairs each: 40" x 40" x 40". In this i provide two dog bowls, one in each back corner, so while one clutch can be taken solely over by cock at a couple weeks, the hen then naturally lays another pair of eggs and sets and cares for those young till those two weeks and then eggs setting again and so on..
this allows actual space for your pair to exercise if your not letting them fly for hours in evenings each day, and lets the young build strong bodies, aswell as stops parents from scalping or stopping care of or tossing out of nests etc any and every other breeding trouble including fertility and pairing trouble, other pro pigeon keepers have. course I'm small scale and maybe so because i make room for bigger better breeder cages). that size is a one size fits all for breeding breeds of rock dove btw but know extra space won't hurt them.

NOTE EXCEPTION: parlor rollers and parlor tumblers, and any other mature/grounded bird (parlors at three months or its not a parlor), should only be kept in 20" high cages. this is because they cannot and should not be able to fly at all at that age and can and have very seriouly injure selves climbing up to top and jumping off. young parlors should be flown/allowed to till they naturally ground. 
other types should not be kept in too low of cage as can cause grounding of some breeds (used on purpose for some), as free flying parlors builds back tail neck etc muscles that helps roll tighter etc due to one or two therized types of rolling one main caused by epilepsy.


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## laughingdog

I usually free fly my breeders, but sometimes i just get bad feeling and keep in or keep in if they are getting close calls or hen maybe getting ready to lay.

NOTE: hens ready or maybe ready to lay from breeding or seasonal laying on own, should NOT be flown those days, as especially birmingham rollers and other "heavy" rollers can be prone to rolldown from stress of, break eggs, abort eggs, expel or detach intestines and or organs. I've seen this with own two eyes and done necropsy on hens afterwards (vet assistant, and various other training for years each), infriends birds, and birds recently given to others.


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## laughingdog

I fly all my birds, as i believe if it can fly it should to some degree and most don't have space, thought or care to put up twenty foot run with perches on each end only to promote healthy exercise, even for show/fancy breeds especially not suited to or allowed/trained to fly free and trained/able to return.
i will like previouly said lock up females laying, or if BOPs are relentless, for week maybe, more though its not pushing/tossing them outand chasing them upand around cheering for BOPs to give em a good run and make them earn their feed. i like tough birds that can take a stoop and roll out of it as have evolved for some once. That said i may mainly stock and lock up my pensom line when they reach breeding age. 
I do not believe in breeding six month old to under two year old birds.. sorry but i cull heavily for performance at six months with new pensom line for earlier performance and am expecting to not know which will still progress, and which will start rolling down at two years as some lines/strains seemingly do then. 

some strains/lines and types of roller breeds do not start to roll at all, or perform (some types should only roll per breed standards), until six months, some not showing hardly anything. and "coming into the roll" until a year or two old, not showing good to total ability till two to really three years old! Rolldowns in these strains/mixes made of show typically at six months and at two years. 

I fly my young birds to toughen up and make hawk aware and savy at looking out for and evading. just my odd but i hate everyone whining what crappy birds they have cause BOPs keep wiping them all out. so i try to slowly work on a balancing act and can't say i have great birds yet, but only lose homers and flights first week flying now. restare either keepers/sold/given away, or meat if don't roll thirty feet as minimum standard to keep (if you don't want it, don't give it away, I've culled many several to twenty foot rollers only giving away even my twenty to thirty foot rollers to fledglings.

"Fly the best, and cull the rest"

Yes putterers can be kept and putzed with, as i have two now that are pets and just really old project birds and fosterers. they have compact and small bodies and every look that says performance roller, but the female rolls ten feet even though super fast and excellent control, while male rolls not really or at all and show stock, but produces best young i had till new actual line,with even mutt etc females and best meanest dad attacking breaking bones on a Turkey vulture to defend young till dogs took care of vulture.

Tumbler breeds however need very much less space and can do outstandingly well in simple small enclosures for six to twenty five birds, and stay extremely happy and healthy (i recommend hardware cloth for bottom for poop to drop through and discurage nesting). For half a dozen flown daily birds i find size of large dresser is ideal for starter kit box of young birds training. For larger number of rollers i find a large closet size ideal for thirty two maybe at most flown daily birds. getting the minimal size per half dozen flown every day training birds? You can keep them in less but i just like knowledge that if I'm sick, hurt, away, busy, etc for day to week, my birds won't suffer extensively. my 40" x 40" x 40" is what i go by and recommend per every half dozen/six birds in general minimum. i have seemingly better results than a lot of pro sport keepers, and have forty and fifty foot birds that are not best but pretty tough considering the hawk nests i can see even from my porch here.


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## birdogron

Very informative. I sure like picking your brain. Let's face it; this is not a hobby that's just gonna happen. It's gonna be trial and error. Good thing I eat squab. Again thanks for the input.


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## kolkatapigeonlofts

DannysDoos said:


> Is this a show type Birmingham Roller?


In india "Kolkata" we call this pigeons as "Kagji" these pigeons are very mean, they often disturbs other pigeons.


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## kolkatapigeonlofts

Great info, but actually i have 20 bird which useless or can be culled, but i dont cull them rather use them as foster parents.


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## Skyeking

*WARNING: PLEASE GO read the forum rules, this forum does not condone "culling" if you mean PTS, or eating of pigeons, this is a "pigeon friendly" website, please respect that. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f124/forum-rules-of-conduct-67555.html*


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