# The Horseman Pouter



## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

Here is some info I agree with from www.cichlidlovers.com/birds_horseman.htm Enjoy
The Horseman Thief Pouter is a relatively new breed to the US having been introduced in 2004 with four pairs of imports and has since been rapidly growing in popularity being exhibited in good numbers at all the major shows. 

The origin of the Horseman Pouter is a mystery but many believe the breed was originally created as a cross between a Continental type Pouter and the now extinct breed known as the Horseman. The ancient Horseman is said to have looked somewhere between a Carrier and a Dragoon. It was a swift flying breed. The original cross was called the "Powting Horseman" which is how the name "Horseman Pouter" began. It is very possible that the birds came through Spain to Scotland in the 17th or 18th Century. The earliest reference that can be found is from Thomas Moore when he refers to the breed in 1735 when he says, “The Norwich Cropper appears to be a derivative of the "Powting Horseman." A quote from Jimmy Dolier's book, "Horseman Pouters," on page 80 says the Horseman is made up of one part Racing Homer with three parts Pouter. The actual word " Horseman" is the Scottish word for Highway Robber and the birds were originally used to catch food (in the form of other pigeons) for the table. 

Horseman Pouters have an upright stance, upright and round globe with slightly long legs. They are not as extreme as most of the Pouter breeds, which gives them the streamlined look of the flying breed they were originally created to be. The standard calls for a bird around 10" high, so they are not a large breed. They make very good parents and rarely have any crop problems

Besides proper structure, the main focus in breeding is put on sex drive, intelligence, agility, flying ability, homing instinct and the ability and intent to seduce other pigeons, which results in a great temperament in the loft, show pen and in flying and clapping around outside in the yard and in the air. The Pouter breeds in general are very promiscuous and entertaining birds and the Horseman Pouter is much more so. This type of selective breeding makes for real characters in the loft, show pen and outside in the yard. There's never a dull moment with a Horseman around. Horseman really know how to put on a show, not only for other pigeons but for the show judges and their owners. 

Horseman Pouters are truly one of the last dual purpose Pigeon breeds. They make excellent show birds standing truly royal and proud, blowing, strutting and showing a lot of fire in the show pens. There has been a growing amount of competition at the national shows each year with Horseman being among the most popular Pouters. It's great fun and a challenge breeding them to the show standard.

Horseman also come in a large array of beautiful colors. We have the three base colors of Blues, Ash Reds and Browns in the patterns Bar, Checker and T-Checker. Also the modifiers Dilute, Grizzle, Spread, White Grizzle, Indigo, Andalusian, Almond, Reduced, Dominate Opal, Recessive Red, Tortoiseshell and Powder. 

Since the Horseman is made up of one part Racing Homer with three parts Pouter one top judge in the UK said he looks for a longer legged Homer look with an apple size globe. The body is also extended but not to the extreme. They should have the feel in the hand of a small racer, with tight, high quality feathering and strong muscles. 

Being a true dual purpose breed if you like to fly your Horseman they are as entertaining as a kit of rollers. No, they don't roll, but what they do is let loose and express that fire and showmanship they are bred for in the air and on the ground! Around the yard they will clap, glide and show off by blowing. Many times they will take off in a kit and route out like Homers and all come back at once from seemingly nowhere clapping and blowing. It's quite a performance!

Countless Fanciers in Scotland fly Horseman Pouters in competition, with the aim of capturing other Flyers' birds. This has been common practice in the cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh for many years. The sport has it's origins in Spain with different versions with essentially the same basic principles being practiced in cities around the world. The sport consists of the the cock or hen enticing a rival bird back to its home loft by a variety of strategies. Upon entering the loft, it is captured and becomes the property of the capturer. Seduction is the most common method. A hen in a particularly attractive condition seduces another person's amorous cock back to her loft or to his, depending on which one wins. 

Today working and exhibition birds are probably Scotland’s national breed, with their popularity constantly growing with entries of 300 Horseman at some of the larger shows. 

Here in the US they are one of the fastest growing breeds, soon to be a major factor. We already have a national club, The Horseman Pouter Club of North American formed in 2006. See www.horsemanpouter.com/HPCNA.html

And yes they are as purebred as any other Pouter breed. I was talking to one of the biggest names in Pouters and told him that I kept Horseman and he said "oh those Silesian crosses.." What? I guess since they are new to the US there's a lot of misinformation going around.

I love them and think they will soon be the most popular Pouter breed in the US. They are great show birds with many challenges. they come in a vast array of colors. They have great personalities that will endure themselves to you. They are great for beginners and experts and are never are expensive (I may be the last one to spend big bucks on them). Many of the breeders will distribute quality birds at a very reasonable price. It's not going to cost you an arm and a leg to get competitive birds. They are great fliers that entertain you in the air as much as rollers with their puffing, clapping and show-boating. To me they are the way a Pouter was created to be.

I encourage you pardner to take a ride with the Horseman, it'll be ride you won't soon forget!

Alan - www.horsemanpouters.com Another article from cichlid lovers horseman counterfeitsA few years before the Horseman Pouter was introduced here in North America from Scotland a few fanciers on our side of the pond attempted to recreate this fantastic breed of pigeon by making crosses of various breeds of Pouters and non-Pouters. The plan was to make them as close as possible in type and temperament to the genuine Horseman from Scotland.

One of the many crosses that was done was Norwich Cropper x Racing Homer, with some Voorburg thrown in. The basic end result of this formula was a bird that was ¾ Norwich and ¼ Racing Homer. Many believe this is the basic original formula for creating the Horseman in Scotland countless years ago.

This cross was very typy and was an excellent flier but lacked the Horseman temperament. Some of these birds were shown at the major shows and could have fooled the experts.

To this day this cross is being used by some Horseman breeders to add better type and flying ability to their birds. They are called “Horseman Project Birds” which I believe is a good name for them as they are not genuine Horseman Pouters. The real Horseman Pouter is a real and distinct breed of Pigeon from Scotland. But since the genuine Horseman has been imported into the North America, this crossbreed is dissipating in the lofts around America. There is no more use for it.

The second major attempt at recreation was done by crossing Brunner Pouters with different Spanish Pouters such as Rafeño and Laudino. The end result was a bird that was 50% Brunner Pouter and 50% Spanish Pouter. These birds have no Horseman blood in them whatsoever, yet are being offered for sale on the internet as Horseman Pouters.

These birds are of poor Horseman type, looking like skinny Spanish Pouters with long legs. This mongrel continues to misrepresent Horseman Pouters by a very few in spite of condemnation by the North American Horseman Pouter Club. Despite all the genuine Scottish Horseman imported into North America these counterfeit crosses are still being peddled around the states as Horseman Pouters. The NAHPC does not recognize these cross breeds as genuine Horseman. 

If you are interested in genuine Horseman Pouters for exhibition or performance, do a complete research on the lineage of the birds offered to you, so you aren’t deceitfully sold these Horseman counterfeits. Again I am not the creator of these articles!!!


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## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

Can I get this transferred to the breeds information and identification section?


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

Eddie make sure it is OK with Alan before you asked it to be used. I think that would be the courtesy owed to him


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

Very interesting bird.


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## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

Oh no! I wasnt thinking about that! Ill email him right now!


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## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

I emailed, its fine!


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## scmona (Sep 6, 2012)

Wow, those are interesting. Beautiful coloring.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

The Horseman pouter evolved in Scotland as a working thief pouter, selectively bred for the sport of catching other pouters by seducing them into their hut where they were then trapped. Working ability was valued above all else otherwise they would be caught by another pouter flyer and lost. In North America these birds are now bred for the show pen rather than pouter sport, they are no longer selected for working ability. Birds that most closely fit the show standard are valued highest, those that do not meet show standard requirements are valued least. 

I can't help but wonder if priorities change for the breed, why would these birds then not be referred to as Show Horseman? Is it not somewhat deceitfull to imply that these birds are the genuine thing if none of them have demonstrated the thieving abillity for which they were and still are bred for in Scotland? Without demonstrating and proving their working ability, should they not be classified as counterfeits? Other pigeon breeds have made this distinction of separating performance birds from the ones bred for show so that there is no confusion, should this not also apply to the Horseman? In my opinion if you breed Horseman for the show pen and no longer prove their ability to demonstrate their skill as thief pouters, they should be referred to as Show Horseman. It only makes sense.

With four pair imported is the Horseman pouter in North America not facing an iminent inbreeding depression with predictable genetic degeration? If crossing takes place to offset this problem, or else to introduce new colors etc, are the resulting birds then still "pure bred"? If they are crossed for these reasons can they still be referred to as "pure bred", or is there an element of deceit carefully concealed?


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## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

I know but I guess shows arent everything, if you have a good working cross then thats really nice no need to prove its worth at a show.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Whose working them though? Horseman in the USA is all about breeding for the show pen, hunting the show trophy rather than other pigeons. Who is demonstrating that these birds are capable of thieving other pigeons? It certainly does seem that shows are everything unfortunately. Where is this demonstration of "dual purpose"?

In an effort to try and resolve this dilema, so that the Horseman in North America does not become just another show breed, a site has been started to help promote thief pouter sport. For most people there really is no excuse not to hunt their Horseman pouters, feral pigeons are more or less everywhere. The feral pigeon is a worthy target to demonstrate that this new breed remains capable as a thief pouter. If the focus of this breed is show pen then how can anyone justify that it sould not be called Show Horseman? Horseman fanciers please join us and assure this breed does not degenerate into a non-functional show breed.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/149710385163671/


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## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

I guess its kind of like if only show homers existed and the racing hobby died.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't think it's fair, or ethical, to refer to the Horsman pouter on our continent a dual purpose breed where in fact one of the purposes is ignored. If the working aspect of the breed is ignored, then yes it will evolve similar to the Show Homer. There's nothing wrong with this, people want to show these birds and are not interested in working them, that's just the way evolution works. What I do object to though is that unlike the Show Homer, the name does not change. The name "Horseman pouter" has always been associated with a functional thief pouter, but if it becomes a show pen breed is it realistic to assume their working abilities remain intact? If racing homers were no longer raced would we expect the high level of performance to remain? The homer guys were smart, they changed the name for two different versions of the homer, and the same thing applies to other pigeon breeds, the flying version and the show version. Why is it we shouldn't expect the same thing for the Horseman? What possible reason is there to not make this distinction? Does the term "Show Horseman" have less marketing value than the term "Horseman"? Is this really about cleverly disguised deceit?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

That point Alan makes about Horseman made from crossing other breeds are "counterfeits" is a bunch of nonsense. There's a Master Horseman breeder in Scotland named James Dolier who writes in his book that Horseman can be made from crossing any of a number of continental pouters with homer and Dragoon. If a master breeder of this breed makes such a comment then you can't help but wonder why a novice of the breed has the right to make such a claim. Horseman pouters began as a cross, local available pouter x homing breed, so why then cannot the breed be re-created if one so choses? His point is rooted in nothing but politics and marketing, smart business move to discredit everything except the birds he has for sale. His point that Norwich x homer lacks fire is not surprising given that the Norwich is hardly the same bird these days as it was in the past. The Norwich we know is not a flying breed any longer, it's now a cage bird with overly exaggerated features that never flys, no wonder it also no longer has any fire.


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## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

Though I see your argument, I also see the show horseman argument. Some people dont thieve with their horsemans others find it a better way to get a breed made for thieving that they can trust. (im sure the show aspect helped it gain popularity) Though i do think its sad that some horsemans are not doing what they have always done thieving flown and that we now have limits to what a "horseman" is.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Not sure what you mean by "some people don't thieve with their Horseman", do you know anyone in the US that does? Is there anyone even thinking about it? How can Horseman be promoted as "dual purpose" if nobody is thieving with them? How many generations does it take to lose this? Also, in Scotland, a Horseman such as this is valued, in the US it would be considered a cull, it has pied markings and feather toes. A Horseman such as this would be culled or given away and certainly not bred from in the US because it does not meet the show standard. Both of these points, ie lack of proving them for thieving skills, and also removing the ones from the gene pool that don't meet the show standard, is what will degenerate the Horseman into something different than what it has always been. As I mentioned before there is nothing wrong with this, the solution as I see it is to refer to the birds bred for the show pen as Show Horseman, a sub-variety of Horseman, and then there will be no confusion and also no expectations as to their ability to function as a thief pouter.


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

What a nice picture.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

You have a very valid point there PouterFly. 
Can the horseman thief pouter really be considered a thief pouter anymore? Like you say, how many people are working their birds? If things continue the same way it truly looks like it’ll turn out just like the other breeds which needed to be made distinct such as the show and racing homer and the show and flying roller ect. When I first found out about the horseman online I was really excited about it because of their original purpose, to work. But now I don’t even give it a thought anymore, no one talks about it; you don’t hear about it or see it, and worst of all, I have virtually no opportunities to even work them if I wanted to. No other fliers and no ferals. I thought about introducing a flock of ferals up here, but this area just isn’t conductive to their survival; all wooded and full of hawks. I was reading on another horseman site where they say that there are 4 types of horseman; the show bird, the flying bird, the working bird and the dual-purpose bird. So it’s fine that some are being used solely for show purposes. But like you say, it may cause problems if there were more fliers. But until then, no distinction really needs to be made, just talk with the breeder and you should find out what you want to know. Now, it is a shame that the working birds are dying out.


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## rollermom (Sep 8, 2012)

I have recently acquired a young pair of horseman and I intend to use them to cach ferals and strays. I know others who also do this. Additionally, I'm part of a facebook group dedicated to working the thief pouters- so there those of us out there doing this. Perhaps you have read of ways to set up your own situation for "thieving". I've not done it, but have heard it possible to maintain separate groups of birds and work them on each other. Good luck!


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

Eddie post some pics of the new Horseman you got.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

*Horseman Theif Pouters*

Here are a few pics of my horseman theif pouters. My birds a half show horsemans and half working horsemans. I breed a show horseman cock to a small flying horseman hen to make a medium sized working bird.

Thanks


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Pouter Guy when you say "working" do you mean thieving? If so what are you catching?


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

How would be the easiest way to breed for a dual purpose line? Maybe breed a show winning line and then just select for working ability?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

You need other pigeons around for thieving to test working ability, if you don't have that it gets tricky. If you can't test working ability you're essentially changing the breed, Horseman were developed as a working thief pouter. In Scotland the shows have a category for flying Horseman and also show Horseman, I think this would be a wise decision for Horseman guys in the US.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

My birds are bred from theiving horsemans. My buddy started breeding show horsemans to working horsemans to get a medium sized working bird with a nice sized crop. He caught several ferals(he lives close to a city) but I have not caught anything(I live out in the country). Oh,the only theiving i have done would be to put a cock in his breeder box and throw a hen out in front of it,let him out and he mates with her and brings her back to his box. Thats the closest thing to theiving I have done LOL.

Thanks


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

*Pic of my favorite horseman cock*

Here is the link, http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f8/horseman-pouter-pair-64875.html
The cream bar hen is one of my breeding birds,here mate is a nice BB grizzle from Charlie Rowe in California. The silver is my favorite cock.

Thanks


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Pouter Guy if you and your buddy are interested in thief sport chat please join us, we're trying to connect those who are.


http://www.facebook.com/groups/149710385163671/


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for that link pouterfly. What do you think of my silver horseman cock?

Thanks


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't like to get caught up in evaluating them by looks, that's kind of the show approach. The Cuban pouter flyers have a saying which translates something like "into the sky" which means put your bird in the air and lets see what it can do. I agree with them, these birds are all about performance so the best way to evaluate them is to let them do their thing and see how well they do it. If they can't perform, well, they're being deprived, that's how I see these birds and that's basically how working pouters have always been evaluated.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

So then what good would it do having a section in a show for flying horseman?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

The flying class for Horseman at Scotland shows is for all the many birds that don't fit the newly created show standard. The ones with pied markings, grouse toes, that kind of thing, traits of the Scottish Horseman that were not included in the show standard, it's more of a political thing than a sensible decision to exclude these traits from a standard. In the US birds that are bred that would be in a similar category would be disqualified at a show and this is kind of unfair being that they would not in the home land. There is hope in the US that Horseman will be tested for thieving ability, but not all would meet the more narrowly defined show standard. A great thief might not be a cadidate for a show because it does not meet the modern show standard, however in flying class it could be a winner and not discriminated against. As it is right now in the US, a pied Horseman with grouse toes is more likely to be wacked or given away as a pet rather than bred from and that is a great shame for the future of the breed in my opinion.


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

Pouterfly have you ever bred or owned Horseman Pouters? I am curious because you seem to know a lot about the breed.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

I talk to a lot of the doo flyers in Scotland Joe, as you know.


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

As do I. A lot of the flyers are bred by showmen and sold to the Doo shops. I raise Horseman and show them but where I live flying them and working them is a zero possiblity. I know you have strong opinions but there are a lot of young guys out there who are very naive about everything. Bashing and degrading others based on your ideas and opinions are wrong. What works for Tom might not work for someone else.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

The young guys might appreciate the whole story about Horseman Joe not just the show approach to the breed. Don't you think it's only fair that a working thief pouter be maintained as a working thief pouter? If the birds in the US don't continue to be tested for this ability such as they are in Scotland, don't you think this is the beginning of the slippery slope that changes the breed? Not bashing and degrading Joe, just simple basic education about the Scottish Horseman.


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

I agree with you on some points but not all have access to using their flying pouters as God intended them to be. I think only time will tell if the Horseman will be used as they are in Scotland and the UK. I would guess in the beginning if it hadn't cost $50 plus per bird more fanciers here would have flown the birds more. People also need to realize how birds are housed and flown in Scotland versus how we breed and house our birds here in the US. The US standard for showing is derived from the UK standard. When we consider having show and flying birds entered in the shows it reminds me of what happened to the Birmingham roller. I will continue to believe that just because we have a show standard for Horseman does not mean that they have lost their abilities as a thieving breed.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

It was the Scottish doo flyers that invented the Pouting Horseman, not God, please let's leave God out of this. In the US the Horseman pouter is peddled as a dual purpose breed, and also pure bred. Joe once you guys begin to see the signs of inbreeding depression, what are you going to do? And if you claim the US Horseman is a dual purpose breed, where is the evidence of dual purpose? 

In Scotland the Horseman is not necessarily "pure" bred, there's lots of crossing going on for all kinds of reasons. The same is going on in the US to add different colors, so is it fair to claim "pure" bred if part of the ancestry is Norwich for example? And I'd like to know what's so wrong with trying to encourage Horseman people to get involved with thieving so that good proven thieves can be included in breeding programs? 

It's true show birds in Scotland are sold to the doo shops and these birds are then tested for thieving skills. Can you say the same kind of thing goes on in the US? My comments here are only to try and help assure that the future of the breed on this continent remains fair and honest, nothing more to it than that, I have no other agenda but to help fully educate folks that are new to the breed.


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

First off where did the doo flyers come from? I hope in Canada their is a God. I have never "peddled" the Horseman as a dual purpose breed and never would make that claim. My suggestion to you is purchase some Horseman and make your judgements on first hand experience not second hand information. Maybe then we can all agree or disagree with you based off fact not off your opinion.


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

When your "agenda" includes first hand experience working with the Horseman I would like to see how they did good or bad so that we can shelve this discussion


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

The discussion is about the future well being of the breed in the US Joe, nothing to do with what or what is not in my loft. And regards the point about dual purpose this quote appears at the top of the first page of this discussion - 

"Horseman Pouters are truly one of the last dual purpose Pigeon breeds"

Could you please explain what you guys plan to do about the inevitable inbreeding degeneration?


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

First off I did not write that article so I can not comment nor will make judgement on it. Your point on inbreeding is valid and it is a concern of mine and I can't speak nor answer for anyone else. I have tried to bring in birds not closely or related to each other. We both know birds have been brought into the Horseman for colors type etc. You lend your thoughts on what a Horseman should be when you honestly have never bred nor worked a Horseman. You are giving your opinion based on what you think the Horseman fanciers should do. Why? I think I will agree to disagree with you and move on to something else. I did look through your albums and see the nice Pouters you have developed.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

OK Joe, we'll leave it at that. But to answer your question why I care to offer my opinion, you know my interest in the breed began long before you guys imported those pairs and quarantined them in Canada. At the time when imported birds were not available in North America a few of us decided to take Jimmy Doliers advice and make our own, a project that I continue to work on to this day. Some of you guys declare these birds not to be Horseman, well you're entitled to your opinion I have no problem with that. Many of the Scottish flyers are quite impressed with my birds but that's between us. I wish you folks well with your pure bred dual purpose Horseman in the US, my hope though is that you understand the wisdom of encouraging the new Horseman folk to test there birds as thieves, end of. Great to chat with you once again Joe, and as always I wish only the very best to you.


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## eddiebrown (Jun 23, 2011)

Can someone move this to the proper area?


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

To keep this page going and people interested.. My flying Horseman named "Playboy"


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Great pics!


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

Thank you! This guy was a very nice flier and has gauged interest in my area. I recently got a hen so I am breeding some young to spread through out the community so we can start to play some thief pouter games


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Guess I'll would post a few pics of mine too...........


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Wow, that's great. Sound like fun. I sure wish I could play around here.


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

Cant see the pics man! Try again I am excited to see them! Lets keep this thread going!


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

lol, there is one.....


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

And this isn't working.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

maybe this will work.......


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

There they are. The hen is the blue check, the cock is the powder blue and the brown check is young and I'm not sure what it is.


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

Nice birds man! Do you fly them often? Do they thief for you? Join our page Zuritero on facebook. We have some great talks about thieving primarily ferals because we aren't in Miami haaha


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

And I would have to say that this cock has the most "fire" of all my birds.


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

Beautiful blue bar! He looks like a good worker!


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Thanks.
I do let some of them out to fly sometimes, but we're out in the "no-wheres" so there is nothing here to thief.

I just come in from watching a hawk trying to get the birds, he flew one off. I'll see what happens. DANG HAWKS!!!!!


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

If it gets away from the hawk you got a good little pouter! I am all about flying ability in my birds! 

Have you joined the facebook page Zuritero? If not, please join. We had a lot of fun today with lots of pictures of peoples horseman pouters! It is a private group so I will just have to accept your request. Same for anyone else who is interested!


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Yea, I've actually joined that group. Haven't posted though. 
It turned out to be a German Modena that the hawk was chasing, thankfully, it got away!


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

Jeeze nice! Good thing it got away! 

Well glad to hear you are on there! Now we need the members to be more active  Lol


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

Very nice picture.


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