# black droppings



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I received a King pigeon two weeks ago. My vet found him, he had a broken leg, coccidia and roundworms. He was treated with Panacur for three days and Albon five days.
Now I noticed he has small droppings and they are black.
Anybody knows what this could be?

She is eating fine and drinking. She gained some weight, she was really skinny when I got her.

Reti


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Could she be bleeding internally? That causes black stools in people.
Daryl


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Good point, Daryl. 
I don't know. She is acting fine, eating, drinking, bathing. Doesn't show to be in any distress.
She is free in a room and pretty calm, so I don't know why she would be bleeding.
I might take her dropping to the vet, but that's not possible untill Wednesday.


Thanks

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


What is she eating, all tolled?

Is there any 'white' in the poop squigs?

Are they in fact 'Raisen' sized 'squigs', or...?

Can you describe them more?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

Well, as you and Daryl discussed, blood in stools can give an appearance of 
being black. 'Course if it had eaten charcoal....but....ok....maybe not that.

Has there been a follow up fecal float to make sure the problems are gone? Also, how many days did they turn black after or during the medication regimine?

You probably already know the answer and are trying to get us to think


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I think Albon and other sulphur drugs can cause black droppings but I would think by now since it's been over a week since treatment, the albon effects would have subsided. Worms and cocci do damage to the lining of the intestinal tract in high numbers. Perhaps this is the dried blood from the damage caused by the coccidia and worms sloughing off now in the stools?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for your input, everybody.
He had no follow up for the worms/coccidia, I must do it, I know, but had so many injured and sick latetly, I just had to take care of the emergencies first.

The black droppings appeared a week after stopping the treatment.
They are very tiny, worm-like, no white, lots of fluid. 
During the past night, since he is not moving around I noticed, boy, does he have lots of dropping,s more solid, still no white and still black.
Now, I don't know if he is not OD-ing on the black oil seeds, hmm. Could that be it?

Brad, if the worms or coccidia caused some bleeding of the intestinal lining, will it heal by itself? Anything I can do about it?

Thanks again

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I'm not sure if damage done to the intestinal walls can be repaired or not. Worms and cocci don't always damage the lining, it depends on the severity of the infestation. In any case, large doses of probiotics would probably help. The idea of probiotics is also that they will create a cellular lining several layers thick in the gut and digestive tract thus preventing damage done by some organisms. That's what I would do, give probiotics gallore


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi again, 

Another thing you could try if you have it, is aloe vera juice. I mentioned this a few days ago and they sell it from Foys. Due to it's high healing properties this might help heal any damage done to the intestines/gut if this is a problem. According to Foy's..."it repairs and coats the entire gastric system, like a liquid bandage". I wouldn't recommend all aloe juices though unless you can find one that has the yellow sap removed like Foy's sells. It will make the birds sick and give them the runs otherwise.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/tonics_vits_mins/#Aloe Vera Juice


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks, Brad.
I'll give her probiotics for now, I have done so in the past week twice.
I will order the Aloe Vera from Foy's. I agree it should be specifically designed for pigeons
She might have had too many black oil seeds and I am going crazy here and drive you guys crazy too LOL.
But better safe than sorry, right?

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

I was also wondering about the the passing of existing paracites in droppings
and timeline on completion of medications. If it's been a week, again, the need
for a follow-up on another fecal float--worm infestations, if present for a long
enuf period of time, can migrate into other areas of the body, and, if I remember the term correctly, the host goes into an "auto-infestation" mode. I did a fair amount of study on the topic when younger. 

If, as Brad points out, there has been damage to the lining, golden seal is also
excellent in healing mucous membrane. As Brad points out, the aloe vera without the yellow sap removed causes diarhea--also painful intestinal griping. The golden seal can make runny movements, but w/out the griping.

In addition to all this, I'd give cider vinegar in the water--there's a product
from Vanhee that has bee propolis, Teatree, cider vinegar in a formula that gave me some good results w/bird droppings. (Global, I think)

I'd also mention here, that after using Albon and treating for canker on two
birds, that I couldn't get their droppings on track. They did get small, dark
and worm like. Because vinegar in H2O helped but didn't correct entirely,
I treated w/Nystatin, and they are once again, appearing normal. Hope this
helps.

PS--The vets curiosity about droppings stopped when the follow-up floats
were OK for cocci and worms.....


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

There is always the possibility that your problem with the King pigeon is less severe than any of us know...like you mention, over endulging in black seeds Sometimes the simplest answers are right in front of our eyes but we want to look deeper to find things when they are not present  

I think probiotics and possible offerings of aloe juice would be beneficial no matter what. 

And FP makes good reference to bee pollen. Bee pollen is also supposed to be EXCELLENT for pigeons, Maryco uses it and says it's very beneficial all around. I"m not well versed on homeopathic remedies but I do use them more or less and tend to adhere to the basic principles of some of these highly beneficial natural products for the birds

Keep us posted on this pigeon, and he's definitely in the care of one of the more experienced care givers on the forum!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Reti,

How about withdrawing the black seeds for a day? Or try Fred's trick of just feeding the soaked puppy chow to see what effect that has on the color of the poops. That would be the easiest way of determining whether it is something in her diet that is causing the problem.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Think the puppy chow's a good idea in terms of "isolating" a dietary cause.
Thought you might be interested in this link on bee propolis:

http://healthinfo.healthgate.com/Ge...03-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21542

Lots of other good information on this link as well.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Brad. I am getting started on the homeopathics, it's a lot to learn but certainly worth giving it a try.

That is a good idea Cynthia. It will be a little hard, cause I have to isolate her form the others to be able to give her just puppy chow and I have so many guests now, I am out of cages. I'll give it a try if she wants to stay in a carrier tomorrow.

Thanks for the link fp, it's great. Had no idea about the bee pollen.
I will take her for a follow up, I guess this week. I do hope the vet won't charge for that, I doubt it though.

I will order what you suggested and try the puppy chow tomorrow.
I'll let you know.

Thank you so much for your suggestions.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

To summarize:

Healing: Aloe vera juice from Foys is great, lots of Probiotics, and propolis is fine, these are soothing products. Vitamin A also heals the lining.

Tea tree oil is to drying and harsh for healing the lining of the intestine. 

Hold off on the ACV as it kills not only the bad bacteria but the good bacteria . Once you are sure the lining is healed (if that is the case) then you get back on using ACV as part of your maintenance program.

One day ACV in the water, the next day clear water and then 2 days of probiotics. Give a day of clear water to make sure the apple cider vinegar is out of the system and won't kill off the good gut bacteria that you are loading back in.

Treesa


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Treesa, I wrote it all down.
Sounds like a great regimen.

Well, good news is, she had no black oil seeds today and her droppings are green. But still tiny worm like, I'll have to check on that.
Also she gained 100 gr. in two weeks, since I've had her, so I guess she is ok.
I think a test to check on the coccidia is in order.

I will still order the propolis and aloe and will keep you updated.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi all,

Glad to hear that at least the coloration has improved Reti. Here's a product link to the manufacturer that I was referring to:

http://www.vanhee.be/eng/eng_products.htm

It is listed under Van-Tricocci 16000 in the product list to left.

Beyers Belgium also has a propolis product (mixed w/ginseng) that I think Globals also carries, if not try Jedd's:

http://www.everythingforpets.com/beyers_royal_jelly.pet/use.id.5.item_id.705.dept.84/

Herbal cures many times have different actions dependant on the use. Clay
for example has a drawing effect and can be used topically and internally
to draw toxins. While it has a drawing action, it also "deposits" minerals 
that are deficient as well. The most important issue w/herbal treatments
is to understand the different actions an herb has and what you are trying to achieve.

Sounds like you may have ruled out blood causing the blackish coloration which is a relief. If the probiotics also help w/the form then it sounds like 
you'll have it fixed!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the info and the links fp.

I am glad too we could rule out intestinal bleeding. Hope we can fix also the shape.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The vanhee product changed the shape in 24 hours....think the albon may get the large picture while not addressing the environment in general. When I pulled the vanhee combo for probiotics, the shape returned, so I'm monitoring
rotation.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> They are very tiny, worm-like, no white, lots of fluid.




According to my droppings book an abnormal amount of liquid urine forming a pool around a small pipey dropping is a result of the pigeon drinking more than normal
Possible causes listed are 
*nervousness
* inflammation, irritation or damage to the cloaca
* kidney disease
* diabetes
* salmonella
* too much salt or minerals in the diet (would show in other birds)
* chemical poisons or drugs (cortisones) 
* PMV or
* unknown causes.

Action recommended is to use electrolytes, do not restrict water, only use antibiotics if bacterial and then by tablet or injection only (thirst can cause fatal overdose).

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ok,
I've looked everywhere to find any info on acv killing good bacteria as well as
bad and can find that nowhere. In fact, I find much different info than that.
Anyway, it's not an anti-biotic or anti-fungal per se, but rather attributed w/having those qualities. 

Like clay, it can produce very different actions dependent on what is needed, ie a "balancer". It will adjust the ph levels proportionate to what is needed,
depending on whether it is overly acidic or alkaline.

From an artical by Alicia McWatters, Ph.D, CNC:

What is ACV and how is it made?

The basis of ACV is sweet apple cider. Sweet apple cider is the juice of the apple. When sweet cider is exposed to air for a few weeks it ferments into alcohol. This is called hard cider. Once the hard cider ferments (again) into acetic acid, it then becomes vinegar. The process is known as acetous fermentation and it occurs in 2 stages.

The process begins when yeast (naturally present on the outer skin of apples) converts the sugar in apples to alcohol. When alcohol and air combine, the oxygen in the air interacts with tiny bacteria called vinegar bacillus. This bacillus occurs naturally in the air and coverts the alcohol into acetic acid.

Other benefits of ACV…

ACV has the ability to prevent the growth of bacteria and mold; therefore, adding it to your bird’s fresh foods as a nutritional supplement has an additional purpose. The acid content of ACV will help reduce the chance of bacterial or fungal growth on fresh foods during the period of time they are in your bird’s food bowl. However, I don’t recommend that you leave fresh foods out any longer than 4-6 hours with or without the use of ACV.

ACV can also be sprayed on seeds during the sprouting period to prevent the growth of pathogens, such as bacteria or fungi. Simply place ACV in a mister bottle and spray your seeds thoroughly with ACV after each rinse with fresh water until the seeds are sprouted. You can rinse the ACV from the sprouts before serving them to your bird; however, if some remains on the sprouts this is fine.

If you use conventionally grown produce, you can remove pesticide residues by spraying the fruits and vegetables with ACV, wait 5 minutes and rinse. To eliminate bacteria from organic and conventional produce, spray with ACV, wait 5 minutes and rinse.

ACV has many healing abilities as well and is known to ameliorate certain symptoms of illness and disease. It works not by curing any specific illness, but by boosting the health of the individual with its nutritional and healthful qualities. I will highlight just a few of ACV’s known potential benefits.

Firstly, ACV may be an effective remedy for arthritis, gout and kidney disease and helpful in alleviating joint pain. The malic acid content of apples dissolves calcium deposits. ACV acts to balance the acid-alkaline pH levels in the body and helps to oxygenate the blood.

ACV has been helpful as an aid for digestion, helping to break down minerals, protein and fats. It also inhibits the growth of unfriendly bacteria in the digestive tract. ACV has detoxifies properties, strengthens the immune system and may ameliorate viral, bacterial and fungal infections. It is used as an antibacterial and anti-inflammatory medicine and has a natural antibiotic effect. Its benefits also include ameliorating respiratory infections and may reduce symptoms, such as watery eyes and nasal discharge. In addition, ACV can be helpful in eliminating both internal and external parasite problems.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great info fp and Cynthia.
I have one guy for years now, my Andrew, besides that he always has runny droppings, they never were normal, he does drink tons of water.
He was checked for everything under the sun numerous times. I guess he fits in the "other" category.

Well, Alice's dropings are brown now and more consistent but still wormy, the worms are longer now. I have to watch her tomorrow see how much she drinks.

Thanks

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,


You have a 'Pigeon dropppings Book'..???? !!!


Tell me more..!

Title? Author? Old or new?


Phil
lv


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phil,

Well, you know how fascinating we pigeon lovers find droppings!

It is a very useful booklet!

http://www.gemsupplements.co.uk/booksfrankharper.htm 

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cynthia,

Sounds like a two great books for everyone to have! 
Thanks for sharing!

fp,

Thank you for wealth of information on the ACV, I use the ACV (with the mother) once a week as part of my prevention program. With all this additional information I'm going to talk to my bird expert about it. But until then & if the biochemists start recommending using probiotics together in formulations with ACV, I'm still going to continue my routine, clean the gut, rinse, and re-populate the good gut bacteria. The beneficial bacteria is sensitive to stress, disease and other foreign invaders, and I'm going to lay it down on a solid foundation, a good (squeeky) clean gut. LOL

Treesa


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Glad you liked it, and by all means, do what you feel comfortable with. 
I don't remember the biochemists ever being quoted by doctors I've been to over the past 30 years who specialized in homeopathy or herbal medicine, although, acv has reached a point in recognition where even general practice
doctor's from my HMO as well as visiting nurses are recommending it for certain 
treatments, including use after anti-biotics.

I've never heard any cautions about eating a vinegretted salad while eating
yogert for good gut bacterial, although, no one recommends oil and vinegar
over the yogert as a sauce  .


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