# End suffering. Humane way of putting down?



## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*End suffering. Humane way of putting down?*

Yesterday I caught a pigeon in my yard that was unable to stand appearing drunk (which I know can be a symptom of west nile..but at this time of year I strongly doubt). Although I do not think it is New Castle..I could be wrong...could be poisoning. I gave him some water and put him in one of my cages that I have for injured/sick wildlife.
By last night he was doing the death roll, breaking my heart watching him feeling helpless. This morning he is still alive unable to stand and still rolling & thrashing about. He needs to be put out of his suffering but I am a wildlife lover and cannot kill a spider. I know if I do nothing..nature will ultimately take it's course but that is not fair for this bird.
It's New Year's Day and I know of no one that is close by or available.
Does anyone know what I can do to end his suffering but will not give me endless nightmares of having to put him down?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jules, in my opinion, there are no humane methods of euthanasia available to us at home. There will probably be some suggestions made to you as to what you could do, but I would be hesitant to try any of them. 

If you truly suspect poisioning, you need to be putting lots and lots of fluids into this bird to help flush the toxin out of the system. I would also be keeping the bird very, very warm and try making it a doughnut shaped "container" out of a towel. Put the bird in the doughnut to try to lessen the thrashing about.

I'm very sorry you are faced with this situation today, but please keep us posted.

Terry Whatley


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Terry, Thank you..for the great advice! I'd put him in my garage (lucky that I have a furnace in it and keep it at 50 degrees as I have two other injured/sick pigeons. But I will bring him inside where it's warmer and set up the towel & start with the fluids.
Thank you!
Julianne


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that Terry advised you as she did. The pigeon could well recover with warmth and fluids.

Cynthia

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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Quick update...and more questions.
He's now inside in a donut of towels in a small cage. I've given him a fair amount of water, through a syringe as he has problems taking water from a dish.
I have done some more research on your site and it "might be PMV" with the difference being that he is hungry and quite anxious to eat and that his body is very warm. I have had a lot of injured/sick birds so I'm familiar with their body heat and he is warmer than most.
Holding him, I placed his head in a deep dish of corn, wheat & barley (what I feed the wild pigeons here) and once he was aware of what it was, he quickly started eating. He tired quickly (after four- six grains) then I'd spoon feed him. He seems happier and more comfortable..however he keeps his legs extended all the time..pushing/keeping him on his side. I've had to adjust him three times while keying in this post.
The questions I have are: Should I give him an antibiotic and if so what kind and where can I get it? I do have a broad spectrum antibiotic solution from the bird pet store but I don't know of birds vets right now.
I haven't given him any yet because I didn't want to start with one type then switch.
Should I use a heating pad I have on a low setting under the donut towel? I ask because I do turn the heat down to 45-50 during the night.
Is there anything else I can do/give him to help him to recover?
Cats, I have three indoor cats and although contact between the bird & cats will not happen, I do not want to expose my cats to something they could pick up.
I'm keeping the pigeon in my home office where my cats do come when I am in the office.
Thanks so much.

Julianne


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Julianne,

You are doing a great job with the bird! There is little chance that you or your cats could catch anything from this bird. If it does have PMV the chances of recovery are very good as long as you continue to provide the supportive care .. warmth, fluids, and food.

Yes, I would use the heating pad set of low or a low wattage light bulb to provide some additional heat during the night.

For now, I would hold off on the antibiotic that you have. Tomorrow or the next day we may want to start the bird on antibiotics and will need to know what kind it is that you have. PMV is a virus, thus the antibiotics would have no effect on it. Antibiotics are, however, used to help stave off any secondary bacterial infections that might further weaken the bird.

If the bird does, indeed, have PMV (and that's a likely possibilitly)keep deep dishes of food and water full and available as the deeper dishes make it easier for the bird to "scoop" up food and water. Symptoms of PMV are more pronounced if the bird is stressed, hungry, or thirsty. So, as quiet as possible and assuring that the bird had food and water are essential to helping it recover.

Great work so far .. please keep us posted.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Julianne,
You are recieving advice from one of the best of the best. 

Your efforts are proving to be quite positive. So glad to hear your little patient is showing signs of improvement.

Please keep us posted.
Cindy


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I would surely rather do this and fail than watch him die without mercy.
Terry, right now there is no point in putting food or water in the cage with him. He is lying on his side all the time, cannot hold his head up & his next is twisted.
I have just finished another feeding, and although his crop is not "full" there is enough in there to make him feel good (1/3-1/2ounce). I've given him more water, again through a syringe, however I don't really know what the definition of "lots of fluids" is, as he cannot take water from a dish (even while holding him .
The antibiotic I have is just a generic brand antibiotic drinking solution "Marvel Aid" through the pet store and contains ...where's my glasses.. ah... active ingredient: sulfadimethoxine 15 mg. per fluid ounce.
I am on my way to a family New Years' Day dinner (late of course..but my family knows me & my love of wildlife) and will feed & water him when I return in three hours"ish".
I have also set up & turned on the heating pad (on low). His body temperature (and feet) are really warm and that does concern me. Thoughts on that would be appreciated.
And thank you.

Julianne


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## katiedidittwo2 (Oct 17, 2002)

Julieanne:
First pigeons do not get WNV. The American Racing Pigeon had pigeons tested and they do not get it, does not shed WNV nor are pigeons good vectors for the disease. In order for WNV to passed on it has to have a veremic level of .8 in the blood for it to passed on. Pigeons veremic level is .5 at the hghest. Most are .3 and lower. They believe it to be because a pigeons body temp is higher than most and pigeons are of the old world species, unlike the Crows which are of the new world species and do not have the genetic makeup to have an immunity to WNV.
If the pigeon has PMV Baytril is the only cure for PMV. It should be given for 21 days to be sure it has been cured and will not shed it.
Sounds like you have it under control.
Katie


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Katie,
Baytril... sounds great but I presume I'd have to get that from a vet, and there aren't any vets that will treat pigeons.
The only wildlife rehab puts down all pigeons siting New Castle..even if it's brought in with string in his claw.
I would sure appreciate some suggestions.
If you can tell me the strength & dosage I might have a little luck.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Julianne,

You are correct in that you would need to get Baytril from a vet or order on-line. I do believe that Katie meant to say that the Baytril would be for paratyphoid rather then PMV. PMV is a virus and the Baytril would be useless in attacking it, though would be effective against other bacterial problems that might be going on.

I did a quick look up on the Marvel Aid that you have, and that actually might be pretty good stuff. Go ahead and start the bird on the Marvel Aid, and let's try to hang in there until morning. 

If you can find Baytril or Ciprofloxacin (which is the human equivalent), the dosage is 15 mg per kg twice per day. Often people will have a "left over" capsule of Cipro that can be dissolved in water and used just as effectively as Baytril .. in fact, my vet prefers Cipro over Baytril.

Please keep us posted.

Terry Whatley


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Well he's made it through another night and I started him on the Marvel antibiotic liquid.
He is, however very dificult to feed. I tried him with the liquid baby bird mixture without too much success. I cannot tube feed him so I am back to trying to spoon feed him some grains. With his neck being so twisted and him really fighting me holding his mouth open I am lucky to get in a couple grains at a time.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You can try soaking some puppy chow until it is soft and puffy and feed him small pieces of that. Might be easier for all concerned.

Terry Whatley


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thanks Terry, but I have the small chow/round pellets for baby pigeons. The problem is holding/getting his mouth open to put the food in. He really fights and I don't know with his neck twisting the way it does whether it is hurting him.
I just finished feeding him his lunch and he got more than I had expected but not enough to fill his crop. He was tired so I'll try again in a couple of hours.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I thought I'd give you an update.
Today, for the first time he's sitting with his head upright in the donut towel (Thank you so much for that suggestion..it's been marvelous!!!). His head does't stay up all the time but he couldn't do it at all before now. While in the donut towel he is no longer laying on his side. Makes me smile. He also took water from the dish!!
I have left a full dish of grain for him right at his face so he doesn't have to get up for it. Although he has reached for the seed a couple times, he really hasn't wanted to pursue eating.
He is quite alert, aware and content... and only seems stressed when I have to feed him. Kaaryn gave be a great suggestion of wrapping him in a towel, then placing him in a large coffee can. That way I have two hands to concentrate on feeding him. He still fights like mad and I am lucky to get 50 grains of wheat & barley into him at each feeding (four feedings/day). I then give him 3ccs (1cc at a time) of baby bird formula...that's about all he can handle before he squirms out of the can. I'm continuing with the liquid antibiotic and his droppings are a dark green and white (not runny).


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that he is improving!

You might find it easier to feed him if you got some egg food and made it into moist pellets. I was only introduced to egg food recently and it really bridges the gap between tube feeding and feeding seeds and it is very nuritious. Alternatively I have heard that you can do the same with chick crumbs, moistening each pellet before feeding.

Cynthia


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## Peter Ward (Oct 24, 2003)

Hi,

Just came across this thread (I only have infrequent computer access) and followed it with fascination. How's the bird doing now?

Peter


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Update. He's a tough guy and I'm doing everything I can to help him battle this virus (if that the case) and get stronger. He is however about the same. I have switched to baby pigeon pellets which are easier for me to get a more substantial amount of food in him. I have a large deep dish of pellets tilted and tucked low in the towels so he can easily access and although he does "sometimes" make an attempt to eat, I do not find he eats much if any on his own. With his twisted neck it is so difficult to feel his crop to gauge how much food is there. He has gone through his course of liquid antibiotics and is now on straight water. He becomes very "stressed" after feeding him and the neck twisting and unbalance is very apparent.
I have the heating pad on low and I put him in the towel donut but he moves away and to the side so I don't know whether it is too hot for him. I notice that sometimes his body shakes or shivers.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Julianne


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Julianne,

You are doing a great job with this bird! His reaction to being handled is normal. Unfortunately he is going to have to continue to deal with it until he is able to eat and drink on his own. It may well be that the bird is too warm with the heating pad and being enclosed in the doughnut. Why don't you go ahead and remove the heating pad and see how he does?

I know it is a big job to care for a bird like this and commend you for all that you are doing.

Please keep us posted.

Terry Whatley


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Julianne,
almost 4 months ago I had found a pigeon with exactly the same symptoms like yours. She could not eat or drink on her own, only after a month she started picking up some seeds. I had her in a cage for almost 3 months. I gave her antibiotics for the first two weeks, plenty of water and after that vitamins and minerals. Now she is free around the apartment although she rarely leaves the den which she made her own room. Only 2 weeks ago she started improving, she twists much less and she is able to keep her head straight for long periods of time and she is eating on her own with no problem. Sometimes when stressed she does twist, but only for short periods. She is getting adjusted slowly to the environment but I guess it takes a long time and everything new stresses her. A few days ago I put some music on in the den, she did not stop twisting till I turned it off. The next day, I tried again and she twisted only for few minutes.
Time, patience and love are very important.
She still has fits when handled but only sometimes, I guess when she does not feel like being handled.
Good luck and please keep us updated.
Reti

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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I wanted to say "Thank you" for all this wonderful advice & incouragement!
I so appreciate having all this wealth of information from all of you!

I do however need a reality check for this bird.
I am a wildlife lover (BIG time) but I also believe that wild animals should be free to live in their environment.
I do try to rehab feathered & furry creatures when I am able.

My question is this: Will this pigeon (when/if recovered) be able to be released into the wild at some point in time?

I understand months of recovery time will be needed and it couldn't happen at a better time (January-spending the winter warm & safe). 
The research I did on PMV said that recovery is slow but they can recover.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Jules,

Is the bird drinking on his own? If it is, here is a way to lighten the handling of the bird a little. Have you tried putting liquid vitamins, and Exact, in water, so that it is diluted enough, to where the bird can drink it up? I found this helps to tackle the feeding problem of sick or injured bird. 

I have a pigeon with injury to his beak, he is able to drink but not eat much seed. This is a great temporary answr for him. You can also add medication to the liquid. 

I imagine with PMV recovery is alot longer then other diseases.

Hey, Reti, glad to hear Beth is doing so well. Treesa


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Yes, Treesa she is doing great. she is funny too, she plays for hours with the cardboard of a toilet paper roll, she rolls it around for ever. She has no desire to go on the balcony, she is not flying but she is exercising her wings every day. And she is chasing Tiny and Angel out of the den every time they go in there. She is so very sweet.
Hope your baby is going to recover soon.
Reti

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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

Sounds like Beth has some personallity and is feeling great, and a whole lot of fun to watch! You are proof that pigeons with PMV can recover and live happy lives! I'm glad you were able to keep her, because I'm sure she loves you very much and is totally dependent on you.

My bird with injury,the top beak was dislogged inside his mouth, we took him in and the beak moved back in normal position. I'm sure he is very sore. He is eating and drinking on his own, I'm happy to report. We will keep him calm in isolated cage for a week when the soft tissue of the beak will be healed. He is drinking in extra vitamins and minerals, and anything else I can get in him! Treesa


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

HE'S EATING FOR THE FIRST TIME BY HIMSELF!!!
Finally I have found something that is small enough for him to eat by himself. White millet. I know that it doesn't contain all the nutrients that he needs but the fact that he is able to eat I am overwhelmed!
He fought so much every time I fed him. I caused an abrasion on his beak as I had to force it open and of course it doesn't have a chance to heal because I have to feed him.
I know it's only one meal that he's eating on his own... but when I look back.. at the topic ...he's sure come along.
Just going to try & continue...one meal at a time and appreciate these milestones.

Julianne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That's great news Julianne. I am so glad the baby is eating on his own.
You can give him also parakeet seeds, they are small and most brands are vitamin and mineral enriched.
Reti

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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thanks Reti. I don't know what tomorrow has in store but right now I feel good. By the way, he isn't a baby. I have no idea his age but definitely an adult.

Julianne


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## ddpowell (May 16, 2003)

This pigeon, after completely healed, could go back into the wild...and you'd need to test this to be sure . Sometimes it's only apparent when nervous or stressed in the later stages and you will think he's okay.

And he may also be very content living with you. I've had ferals join my coop and love it. I've had friend that had ferals come to their house, eventually bond with them and wanted to stay with that person. Ferals have it so hard out there...a life you give him would surely be welcomed...I wouldn't worry too much about that.
Now, if he/she had a mate out there (which by now, I'm sure the mate has given up on him/her,) that might be different. And perhaps he'd miss a mate, but they've been note to Mate with humans too . You could always wait for another feral in need and hopefully they could mate with the one you have. Good lucka nd keep us posted. It can take several months for this to be gone and I commend you for your efforts. 
So many are put down for this, but with love and care, most can be helped.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Update.
Yesterday morning he took a turn for the worse. He is back on his side with his neck fully twisting again and no matter how much I tried I was only able to get a small amount of food in him. Also, he was too warm to the touch.
When he was improving & starting to walk and even eyeing the top of the box (contemplating jumping out) I reworked his box allowing him more walking freedom. Now I have put back the donut towel & the heating pad and giving fluids through the syringe.
I have located a vet that does handle some wildlife so I have set an appt for Monday afternoon and hopefully we can get the proper antibiotics, vitamins and such. This guy is a fighter for life and I am going to give him whatever I can. I was so happy when he started improving as he even started grunting at me when I needed to pick him up. He is still doing that which is good. I shall keep you posted.
Thank you again for all your assistance.

Julianne


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You are a real trooper and doing such a great job on this bird. With PMV there are likely set-backs that you can't help.

Glad to hear the pijjie is going to a vet, hopefully he or she can figure out what else is going on with this bird. You were just the right person to deal with this bird, and giving him every opportunity to live a full life! Thanks for your love and care of this bird. Treesa


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

Hey, I don't know if this will help you at all but I had a rooster do the same thing. We thought he wouldn't make it, our vet thought he wouldn't make it (birds always beat the odds at our house but we were wondering). "FeatherDuster" was in the house getting intensive care for months, I was not about to give up on the little guy. Blood work showed a severe infection but it didn't match up his behavior. 

After about 4 months of constant nursing, force feeding, injections, ect. he pulled through and became a "normal" pet rooster once again. 

All we could guess was that it was stress. Sunlight would send him into shaking fits and he would start walking backwards and in circles so he spent a lot of time in a pet taxi with a blanket over the back part only leaving the gate uncovered. Slowly he was able to adapt to light again, then the other roosters, but it took a lot of work and just giving him the time to heal on his own.

Best wishes,
Christina


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thanks Christina, it does help. It is so great to hear about your rooster!
He's now able to "stand" leaning on his back end & tail feathers. His neck isn't twisting but he does a lot of nose diving when he moves around the box. It's a smallish box, 14x20 and he has the donut towels so there isn't a level surface for him. When he starting doing better last time I took out the donut towels and gave him a level surface but he relapsed.. so back went the donut towels. I'm just trying to take this one day at a time.
The vet that I had planned to take him to called me the day of the appointment and said that their computers are down so they couldn't see him. "??" They then said they really don't see pigeons. So...it's just me & you guys! Thank goodness for you guys!!
I could not imagine all the lives saved with the support here!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2004)

I've been out of touch with my own bird problems lately, so I'm just now looking at this, but my Percy has what we've always suspected was PMV too. And it has been a VERY slow recovery! Tube fed from November something through Christmas. 

A good food alternative for Percy was a pulvarized bean and legume mixture. I bought a "soak and simmer" mix for birds, and blended it into a powder mostly. This way if the bird's mouth is open at all when it hits the food something gets in there. I crushed sunflower seeds this same way and added these to the mix, keeping the stash separate because of their tendancy to spoil. But these are high in fat, which she needs. I bought a stress formula mix at my bird store and sprinkle some of that on there too. I got some 9 grain mix at the local health food store's bulk food section. This is crushed already into small pieces and ensured getting food in the beak. And I discovered, late in the game, that warm water was somehow preferred to cool water, at least in Percy's case.

Also in discussing with my rehab vet what Percy likely had, he indicated botulism would be something that does really bizarre things to the neck, like but often more extreme than PMV or other neurological problems. You seem to be describing more severe neck twisting and the like than Percy really had. She gets her neck in strange positions but not in a way she can't control or that she leaves that way for long periods of time.

Describe the bird's attempts at eating. Does he seems to be able to see what he's looking at? Are his pupils large or small in a decent amount of light? Do they seem to focus on what he's looking at or not? Does the bird hold his head back and shake vigorously whenever he gets something in his beak? You mentioned shivers and quivers at one point, are these mostly of the head and neck or the whole body? Percy's head tremors looked very much like someone with Parkinson's. She had a stage of "progress" that lasted about a week where she moved her head and neck from side to side like she had a catch in her neck and had to retate it up and over something huge in the middle. It was truely a WEIRD symptom; she failed to display it to the vet when I took her in for him to see her and, it went away on it's own, but her pupils returned to normal size about the time that symptom left also and she seemed to be able to see what she was looking at.

I've got a pretty detailed journal I've kept during the whole 2 1/2 months of Percy's recovery, with some pictures thrown in, if you would like I could send it to you. Might give you some ideas, some sense of hope. I know when I took Percy (called Fred then) in to the vet on a Friday I thought I'd be taking him back to be put down the following Monday, but miraculously although not there yet, her progress has been remarkable. SLOW as predicted, but remarkable!

I do know I appreciate my vet/rehabber I found, because of Percy, actually, more and more when I hear on this site how much trouble people have finding veternary care for pigeons!

Anyway, blessings to you for walking through the odyssey of serious illness with this pigeon. Let me know if you want me to send you the e-copy of my journal on Percy.

Stacey


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

What kind of vet are you looking for? A wildlife vet, regular? Have you tried Avian/Exotics vets yet? That is who I use is a avian/exotics vet. I talked to my vet just last week about the lack of interest in the pigeons when it comes to vets and he said that ANY avian vet is capable of treating a pigeon, it's still a bird. Have you tried not mentioning the fact that it is feral? He also said that it could just be the fact of their "wild animals" that scares them off. Are you trying to get free or discounted prices for the care? Vets are so willing around here to even treat a bug that got stepped on if you tell them you will pay full price.

Some of the key things that I used with FeatherDuster are Probiotics (chick is best when they are this sick but adult works too), avian stress vitamins, Systemajuv, and Bird Calm. All of that is from www.petmedacinechest.com. They should be able to do over night mail I would think.

Gosh, I am glad he is doing a little better but I hope he does a complete turn around. OH! I almost forgot... Have you tried Vitamin E? That produces the exact same symptoms in parrots, pigeons and chickens. It's easy, just a couple of drops from human vitamin E pills in the beak a couple times a day. If that is it you will see the results it in a day or two.

My prayers are with you both,
Christina


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That website address is:
www.petmedicinechest.com 

Treesa


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

First of all, sorry it’s taken me so long to get back. Stacey I’d love a copy of your journal, if you don’t mind. Pidj is kept in my office with no direct light so I’m not sure how he is going to respond in bright light. However he does focus on me and actually always stops eating when I watch him. Yesterday was a very good day. He actually flew out of his box… repeatedly. He’s started walking..well two steps and looking drunk as can be. A great deal of falling over but the fact that he’s aware and has actually become mobile to me is a very good sign. I have now set up a larger cage for him and tried to pad the sides with towels so he doesn’t bang around too much. I also got one of those low untippable dishes that has water and he actually drank from it. I’ve had to continue giving him water from a small animal baby bottle, as he didn’t seem to like the deep-water dish. I will move him to the cage gradually over time, as I don’t want to stress him. 
Christina, you asked about finding a vet. I do not think it’s right to hide the fact that he’s feral. If it is PMV that he has, it is very catchy and it would not be right to expose other pets without being aware of these facts. Cost, I am not looking for a discount. At all. A few years ago, during winter I caught seven mice in my (furnace heated) garage (where I keep my bird seed & grains)(and my other two sick & injured pigeons). I could not release them into the yard, as I know they would die. I spent about $250 on a habittrail system and set it up in my office and kept them there until I released them in spring. Am I silly or what?


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## SandyDove (Apr 26, 2001)

Hi,
I hope you the best of luck with the bird. But if he does begin to go downhill rapidly and you doubt he'll recover then the best way to "end his suffering" is to use an old dish detergent bucket. Just place him inside with some rags and close the lid tight. The oxygen will slowly run out and he'll go quietly to sleep. This was a recomendation from a veternarian.

SandyDove

PS: Fortunately I've only had to do it once


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

OH MY!

Julie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

PMV babies can have relapses, but they can get by. I could never put down any baby, unless they are in terrible pain with no chance of recovery (like cancer).
My Sir Bethan is not doing too great either right now, he has an infection in his leg and I guess that is what makes him hyperecxitable, he twists a lot, he sleeps a lot and does not eat by himself, but he still loves to snuggle next to me, he is happy when I talk to him and carry him in my arms around the house. 
I know now he will never recover completely, so I am going to make him as comfortable as possible.
Let us know, please, how he is doing today.
Reti

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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Last night a critically ill pigeon was placed in my care (please see thread titled: Found sick pigeon, in this section). 

Although his condition is grave, prognosis is not good & I doubt he will recover, for now I must make every possible attempt to keep him alive.

Realizing everyone must do what they feel is right at the time, if this pigeon, or any pigeon in my possession, begins to go downhill rapidly, & there is absolutely no recourse, the only way I, personally, could handle the situation would be to let him know he is not alone, by holding him as close to my heart as possible. I just couldn't place him in a bucket & close the lid. 
Cindy


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

I agree that you should not hide the fact that he is feral. I was just suggesting that you wait until you have the appointment and are in the clinic. My vet asks me about mine all the time and knows that I have a feral, I don't believe in hiding information from a vet.

I was talking to him about the lack of help you have been getting from vets in your area and that was actually his idea. Since my problem was a chicken, he said that some people can't mention "poultry" if they want vet care in other areas.

Just some thoughts...

Still keeping you and the little guy in my prayers,
Christina


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

He's holding his own for the moment and at this point I am no longer searching out a vet. His recovery is slow but that's okay.

Sandy, thank you for that information, it is truly good to know.

Cindy I hear you and understand when you want to hold them and comfort them at the end, but I really think that Sandy was talking about when the bird is suffering and in pain and death will be slow in coming. I too would want to hold & comfort them but to watch the pain & suffering day after day is not humane & heart breaking.
I have watched death come slowly and vowed never to stand by and do nothing again. Having said that, I also will do everything possible to save that critter.


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

I totaly agree with you about holding and comforting them as they go. It just seems like the best way to me... though I have never had to have a bird put down and for that I do thank God. Some of my most precious memories have been while I was holding them before they died and some of my most heart breaking where when I was not there. 

One time (just a few years ago) a little Lovebird of mine went from healthy to not able to breath in a matter of minutes. We rushed her to the emergency clinic where she died alone within two hours of my leaving her. The tech that called said that little "Lola Mae" (named after my grandma who found her for me) cried for about ten minutes until she (the tech) walked in to her- she died minutes later. It breaks my heart to think that she was so lonely and sad there before she left.

I'm sorry... I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad or say that putting them down is "wrong". I have asked my vet to tell me when if ever the time would come and he paused then said that yes he would tell me.

Stay strong...

Christina


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

Christina - tiny little Lola Mae! She was your little baby. But i think most of us have gone through what you did.

SandyDove and Julianne, i am sure there is no kindness in suffocating anybody. It's cruel. It's a way of terrifying them. And note that Terry said she knows of no humane way to kill at home.

That leaves us where? I too have done as Cindy described, and there's nothing to describe it better than what she said. Also no way to forget the love a pigeon has while it's held close to our heart - even if it's dying.

But we still need a better way to kill a bird that needs it. There must be something. I could not do it any quick way. 

Al


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Jules,

Have been following this thread for awhile. Am sorry to see you in such a posistion. It's something we all face from time to time. 

A few years ago there was a topic similar to this here, and a member emailed me and told me that the best way to end suffering was a closed bucket with an ether soaked rag inside. That's the method I've used for the last 2 years, and have found it the best method we have available to us. 

I hate to have to put anything down, my group contains a lot of birds who would have been culled in diffrent lofts. Guess I'm not doing my part to preserve the species. But I feel as though those in my care are spoiled and well cared for. I don't consider myself a cruel person by any means, because i know that that many show breeders still cull anything that doesn't fit the standard. 

I can understand what terry and whitewings are saying about there not really being a humane way to do this at home. And I respect both of thier opinions. However, I'd like to point out that taking any animals life, no matter how we have to do it, could be considered cruel I suppose. We're not talking puppy dogs and ice cream cones here. I just believe that letting an animal needlessly suffer for days or weeks is more cruel than ending a life quickly. What made that point hit home was when another breeder pointed out to me that had the injured/sick bird been in the wild instead of in a loft, it would have been quickly killed by a predator, such as a cat, dog, or evil hearted human. Once they lose the ability to fly in the wild, that's it. So, maybe it's not a matter of finding a way that's perfect, there might not be one. I feel it's just the matter of finding what's quickest and most painless, and over the years I've discovered the methon mentioned above to be the best. After all, when it becomes necessary to put a cat or dog to sleep, they still feel a needle, and i'm sure they're probably scared too. There is no 100% perfect way to end something's life. I guess when I compared this to the animals that are needlessly shot, and to the birds who die a much worse death everyday...........things didn't seem to bad anymore. 

I'll take this chance once again to point out it's a shame foy's or other places can't carry a pill that would put them to sleep painlessly. I'd buy them, and so would many other fanciers. Maybe someday. 

Anyhow, I'm wishing you the best of luck in this tough time. And the same goes for the rest of these great people on these boards. 

Bless you all, Dave 

------------------
David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.geocities.com/havensloft


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

DaveD - I agree with you! I have been in bird rescue (parrot and since last year the occasional pigeon) for about 11 years now. Many people will do ANYTHING to get rid of a perfectly healthy bird; feral, domestic or exotic, and though a "pill" to put a bird down would help a lot of you, if it were available to anyone I could not imagine the deaths that could happen. A someone searching the net could find it and think that its a great way to get back at the people down the street with all the birds - who knows. 

On the same note, I also wonder if it would be wise if it were only available through a vet that knows what you do it would be controled to some extent, though it would make it a bit harder for you to get when you needed it. There are vets out there that support any form of bird rescue and would likely go for the idea of giving a "bottle" of these pills to people that they know would use then properly and not as revenge. 

Just some thoughts about it from my little corner of the world...

Christina


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Hi Christina, 

Indeed that is the problem. It's too bad the world isn't a simpler place, isn't it? 

I for one would be happy if something like that were available thorough the vet. It would be pretty simple for a vet's office to see if you have pigeons or not, could always have you bring some in. Maybe even some sort of liscense to buy them. 

Eh, maybe someday. Thanks for your reply. 

------------------
David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.geocities.com/havensloft


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Could I get more advice?

Well it's been almost two months since I've had Pidj and although he's doing much better, he still has a long way to go.
He has been in his new cage for about two weeks and is eating and finally drinking on his own. His poop is still really stinky.(-:
His neck does still twist but for the most part he is up on his feet and "somewhat" balanced for most of the day.

My questions are: Is he still contagious? And if not, could he be moved to my furnace heated garage where I have two other pigeons. One recoving from an injury and the other had probably the same thing as Pidj but I caught him quick and he's great..able to pick up fine seeds & sit on a perch. Both I plan on releasing once Spring is here AND the hawks are gone.
Each bird is in their own cage in close proximity and although the furnace is on I keep it set to 50 degrees.
I thought it would be good for Pidj to have other pigeons around him to pass away the day.
Thanks

Julianne


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## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by Jules:
> *Could I get more advice?
> 
> Hi Julianne, pigeons with PMV usually stop shedding the virus 6 to 8 weeks after the virus begins, I quote"after they have been ill for 6 weeks the pigeons are no longer carriers of the virus and are no longer transmitting the infection." I read this in a booklet about PMV in pigeons. To be on the safe side I kept my PMV pigeon away from other pigeons for 3 months and also had my other pigeons vaccinated against PMV, the vaccines are quite cheap, in the UK at least!
> ...


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thank you Alison, that does help. It's been 8 weeks today that I've been caring for him. I would so like to move him to my garage where he'd have other pigeons (other cages)around and also be on a better day/night schedule. Right now I keep him in my office. It's the only room that has a door that I can close since I have two indoor cats. I'm a night owl and am always in my office till the wee hours. Although I keep the lights to a minimum (or off) ..he's aware of my keyboarding and such.
Will the temperature drop of going into the heated (50 degrees) garage have a negative impact on his health?
Thanks
Julianne


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## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

Hi Julianne,
My pigeons are all in an aviary with an un- heated shed attached, so they are used to all types of weather. I keep only sick birds in heated conditions, ie in the house on a heatpad or under a heatlamp. When moving birds which have been inside the house to the outside or to anywhere cooler, I do it bit by bit to acclimatise them, I start by putting the bird outside for a couple of hours or so on a day which isn't freezing cold, and check to make sure it isn't fluffed up because it's too cold, and gradually leave the bird out for longer in the day and after a few days choose a relatively warm night to leave the bird out all night. If your garage isn't much colder than the office it shouldn't be too much of a problem!

Alison


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Sorry really have to agree with Cindy on this one. Sorry but everyone different. Would never want to go through that myself, dark, alone, strange place and fighting for breath. (Sorry







didn't want to say just my feelings towards it)


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have to agree with you, Karen. All creatures deserve to be surrounded by tenderness and love until they pass.

Cynthia


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Today is not a good day. 
Pidj was put down at the Vets today.
He relapsed when I moved him to the garage weeks ago and no matter what I did, he got worse with every passing day.
I made the decision and took him to the Vets to end his suffering.
I hate playing God, but I feel I was responsible for his welfare and needed to be humane.
Thank you all so much for your help and guidance over these months. I like to think that his extra time here was not all pain and suffering.

Julianne


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dear Julianne,

I am so very sorry that you had to give Pidj the final act of kindness today. I know you tried so very hard to heal him.

Terry


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Very sorry to hear that Jules. You did your best.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Julianne,
I'm so sorry to hear about Pidj.
You must be commended for the effort you put forth in caring for, & loving, this sweet pij. 

I commend each & every member who has taken on the task of caring for a PMV pigeon.
Although challenged, you folks have given them the opportunity to experience what they so deserve, 'love & secutity'.

"Godspeed Pidj. You have made a positive impact on all our lives."
Cindy


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Really sorry to hear that Jules, nice to know pidj had someone who loved and cared for his welfare.


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