# Brown pigeons



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

These are brown birds that I used to think were silver or dun.
They are very similar to silver and dun in appearance. One way to tell is when they are babies, silver is dilute and will have short down but brown is not dilute and will have normal down. More that my son raised and did not record anything. Silver is also a bit more bluish and will have darker bars and tail bar.

Bill


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

I don't know what they are but they're beautiful and cute. Especially the last one who's just looking straight at you.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*All rollers all hens*



Garye said:


> I don't know what they are but they're beautiful and cute. Especially the last one who's just looking straight at you.


One is check pattern, one is bar pattern and one is grizzle.

Bill


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Great colors on the gals, I love the variations!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Very pretty birds, Bill! All this genetics stuff has got me going crazy with looking at my own pet birds, the rescues that are here, and the ferals at the duck pond. There are really quite a few lovely brown pigeons in the duck pond flock and one red. Also quite a few black pigeons (my personal favorite), and a few very pretty multi-colored pigeons (grizzle type).

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I'm glad to see all the interest*

To me, this stuff is fascinating, whether I'm working with plants, birds or animals, genetics play a very important part and I can learn to produce what I want, even something new. 

When we talk about genetics, I find it best to forget what a particular color or gene would mean to most people. We have red pigeons that really don't even resemble red. Cardinals are red, pigeons are brown with many varying shades of it and each of them will have a genetic designation, if not a separate name for a color.

The color brown in pigeons is more like a pale golden silver. Ash red, recessive red, recessive yellow (dilute of recessive red) and bronze are all varying shades of brown but have nothing to do with the gene brown. This is why I try to think of them as genes and not colors. Each one of these genes can be modified in a number of different ways, such as dilute, pale and reduced, among many others.

Even black will not always appear as the color that we know as black. You must have seen my photos of reduced black rollers. Nobody would describe these birds as black but genetically, they are indeed black. They just had modifiers to the color. If you bred them to a normal bird, their young would be what everyone recognizes as black. This is what makes them black. It is not how they appear but it is their true genetic color.

I hope this makes some sense, It is how I have to think of things to sort it all out.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jbangelfish said:


> When we talk about genetics, I find it best to forget what a particular color or gene would mean to most people. We have red pigeons that really don't even resemble red. Cardinals are red, pigeons are brown with many varying shades of it and each of them will have a genetic designation, if not a separate name for a color.
> 
> The color brown in pigeons is more like a pale golden silver. Ash red, recessive red, recessive yellow (dilute of recessive red) and bronze are all varying shades of brown but have nothing to do with the gene brown. This is why I try to think of them as genes and not colors. Each one of these genes can be modified in a number of different ways, such as dilute, pale and reduced, among many others.
> 
> ...


Your post does make sense, Bill, but to a neophyte such as I .. black is black, brown is brown, red is red, and there ain't no blue pigeons .. they are gray  I am kidding with this statement, but not a whole lot. Like I've already said, I've got a whole bunch to learn! Now you're gonna get a couple more pics to ID the color! 

Terry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well I guess its all in the eye of the beholder and some of them are color blind.When I look at the red birds in my loft they look red to me and some even to look a bit pinkish.They never will have the red of a CARDINAL,or a SCARLET TANAGER, but none the less they are red. * GEORGE


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bill, 




I do not understand this stuff yet, but, I will work on it...


Is it that any particular Gene can occasion quite a few variations of the Color attributed TO that Gene?


So that, you are refering to 'Brown' Birds, not because they are Brown, but, because they represent some of the color variations which the 'Brown Gene' is understood to express?





Phil
l v


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I think you're getting the idea*



TAWhatley said:


> Your post does make sense, Bill, but to a neophyte such as I .. black is black, brown is brown, red is red, and there ain't no blue pigeons .. they are gray  I am kidding with this statement, but not a whole lot. Like I've already said, I've got a whole bunch to learn! Now you're gonna get a couple more pics to ID the color!
> 
> Terry


Genetic terms can be confusing and even the chosen names for colors can be confusing as they don't necessarily match what we know as accepted names for colors.

Blue and red are some of the biggest examples of a stretch to what seems normal to us. Like you say, blue is actually grey, red is brown and so on. As we become more familiar with the named color of a pigeon, it will just come to mind and replace what normal folks would think of when that color is mentioned. Forget the box of crayolas when you are talking about pigeon colors. We can use the words that we all know to describe them but if we know the proper genetic term, it helps us all to know what we are talking about and we don't have to go into a big description, it just becomes part of our vocabulary. This won't happen over night.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It's about time you showed up*



george simon said:


> *Well I guess its all in the eye of the beholder and some of them are color blind.When I look at the red birds in my loft they look red to me and some even to look a bit pinkish.They never will have the red of a CARDINAL,or a SCARLET TANAGER, but none the less they are red. * GEORGE


Where ya been?

Anyway, I don't think red pigeons look red but maybe reddish and I don't think blue pigeons look blue but maybe bluish. I find this with all pigeon colors except black or white. Silver is one that is about right, I guess.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I'm not sure that I understand the questions*



pdpbison said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are several basic pigeon colors and each of them can be altered or modified into many many other appearances so as to appear to be a different color. The underlying color gene remains the same but has been modified when you add dilution or milky or smoky or whatever modifier is in effect.

Brown was the chosen name or color for a certain gene, which is a color gene. The birds are brownish but as I said earlier, they are more of a golden silver blend to me. Brown just rolls off the tongue alittle easier than golden silver blend so a simple term was chosen to describe this genetic color.

I think you are saying what is meant. I say forget what comes to mind for brown or blue or red or yellow because the pigeon color will not be what we all think of for that color. The same is true for most birds that color names have been chosen as they may be as close to what that color is than anything else. Some birds have the true bright colors and it is much simpler then. Pigeons and chickens do not have these bright colors and you have to know what buff or yellow or red or blue means within each species that we are talking about.

Bill


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bill, 



I got a few images made last night, of three young Pigeons - my little Butterscotch Bug, and, the 'Red' juvenile and her/his sibling who is a Blue Bar.

They are added to the short album at this link


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/avian-ambiance/



Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Bill,
> I do not understand this stuff yet, but, I will work on it...
> Is it that any particular Gene can occasion quite a few variations of the Color attributed TO that Gene?
> So that, you are refering to 'Brown' Birds, not because they are Brown, but, because they represent some of the color variations which the 'Brown Gene' is understood to express?
> ...


Yes, Phil, I think that is what he is saying. Brown is one of the three basic colors. But that gene can express everything from deep brown to very light pale brown depending on what modifiers of the brown gene are present. For instance, a bird can be brown, but have the modifier dilute present and it would probably be a very pale shade of brown. I'll have to let Bill confirm that I'm interpreting what he is saying correctly. He is also saying that other colors, ash red, bronze etc., may look brown to our eyes, but they are not brown in the genetic sense.
One of the problems, and I am really slugging my way through this, is that the color we see may be quite different genetically from what it appears to be. It is fascinating tho, when you get a bit of understanding, to look at a pigeon and try to fathom what it's genetic makeup might be. Like your carmel colored bird. Is that a dilute ash red? I dunno. I know that dilute reds are yellow in general.
Margaret


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I've only had two brown pigeons. One was a Lahore and the other was a Runt. I had another runt that looked bit strange in coloring...but my pictures of it aren't that great.

Here's the brown runt - http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/Brown/BigbrownRunt.jpg
He is...brown right? If he is, I figured he'd make a good example


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I think you're catchin on*



Margarret said:


> Yes, Phil, I think that is what he is saying. Brown is one of the three basic colors. But that gene can express everything from deep brown to very light pale brown depending on what modifiers of the brown gene are present. For instance, a bird can be brown, but have the modifier dilute present and it would probably be a very pale shade of brown. I'll have to let Bill confirm that I'm interpreting what he is saying correctly. He is also saying that other colors, ash red, bronze etc., may look brown to our eyes, but they are not brown in the genetic sense.
> One of the problems, and I am really slugging my way through this, is that the color we see may be quite different genetically from what it appears to be. It is fascinating tho, when you get a bit of understanding, to look at a pigeon and try to fathom what it's genetic makeup might be. Like your carmel colored bird. Is that a dilute ash red? I dunno. I know that dilute reds are yellow in general.
> Margaret


Brown, with no modifiers is very pale and silvery. The 3 birds that I showed are all brown with no color modifiers, only pattern modifiers. Without the presence of bronze, genetic brown is not very brown at all. The dilute of it is called Khaki and actually is khaki in color. I believe that I have one of these and will post a pic of her soon. 

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I think he's brown with bronze*



MaryOfExeter said:


> I've only had two brown pigeons. One was a Lahore and the other was a Runt. I had another runt that looked bit strange in coloring...but my pictures of it aren't that great.
> 
> Here's the brown runt - http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/Brown/BigbrownRunt.jpg
> He is...brown right? If he is, I figured he'd make a good example


The color is too brown to be genetic brown without the help of bronze. Very much like the feral that I think Terry showed. If is to be an example of brown, I think it would be important to say that it also has bronze as it looks quite different than brown without any modifiers.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jbangelfish said:


> Brown, with no modifiers is very pale and silvery. The 3 birds that I showed are all brown with no color modifiers, only pattern modifiers. Without the presence of bronze, genetic brown is not very brown at all. The dilute of it is called Khaki and actually is khaki in color. I believe that I have one of these and will post a pic of her soon.
> 
> Bill


 khaki colored birds look better then several browns in some breeds and you see khaki less often then browns. I guess depending on where you are at and what breeds are popular amongs the loical breeders.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Hi PHIL, First you have a bird that you call CARMEL that bird is a brown bird.Now for Butterscotch which is a Red Bar hen. The red and the blue are her young is that correct?What color is the mate of butterscotch? The red you have here is very intresting as it does not look like a ASH RED the parts of the body that normaly would show ash do not show the ashy color.Anyway I think that this bird could be either a EMBER, or RECESSIVE RED, or a RED VELVET and maybe even a BRONZE.We realy need to know the back round of the parents as they may be carring a modifier which will have an effect on the color.I do wish that the pictures of these birds were posted on this thread it makes it a bit easier. ...GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I think the reds are just recessive red*

They may have some bronze, hard to say. Not red velvet which is t pattern ash red. They would have the grey flights and tail. Recessive red masks alot of things, including patterns, they don't show except in young. What does the father look like? Should either be recessive red or must be carrying it. Both parents have to have the gene to produce recessive red.

Bill


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 



Thanks for the info...

I will see about making some additional images later to-day, and post them in the thread here, where they will be convenient to refer to.

I will try and get an image also of the 'Red' Hen's mate ( he is skittish..! so this is not going to be easy. She is pretty calm and lets me preen her Crop as she sits, but this only developed after I was presenting a tiny Bowl of Seeds for her while she was brooding...)


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## dooscoo (Jun 14, 2008)

Have made the same mistake until now a choc brown has turned up out of the blue. Dave


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

george simon said:


> Hi PHIL, First you have a bird that you call CARMEL that bird is a brown bird.Now for Butterscotch which is a Red Bar hen. The red and the blue are her young is that correct?What color is the mate of butterscotch? The red you have here is very intresting as it does not look like a ASH RED the parts of the body that normaly would show ash do not show the ashy color.Anyway I think that this bird could be either a EMBER, or RECESSIVE RED, or a RED VELVET and maybe even a BRONZE.We realy need to know the back round of the parents as they may be carring a modifier which will have an effect on the color.I do wish that the pictures of these birds were posted on this thread it makes it a bit easier. ...GEORGE




Hi George, 



Originally, I had to recovered Wing-injury ferals ( badly broken Wing Bones both,but both were good indoor fliers once all was said and done)


The Hen, when in the right light, showed a hint of 'Brown' to the fringes of her Primarys.

Otherwise, both of these ( who became mates, after sharing the same cage a while during their convelesence time) were what one could call very average Blue Bar ferals.though I can not say now if one was not a Check Wing sort.

These two along with several other non-releaseables, I gave away last August, so they are not here anymore.


I did not have very many Pigeons in here at that time, so off and on for 16 Months they were here, usually just I let them have their Broods as they pleased, and they were excellent parents.


Each Brood consisted of two 'Goodyear Red Rubber' color "Red" Pigeons, having no other colors on them and no 'Bars' or other patterns, and but for a a few, all were self-released and joined the feral flocks in this area.


One of these offspring for having had the PPMV when a fledgling, has remained here, but seems fully recovered. She was ill last August when I had the PPMV passing through the indoor situation here.

Her and her Mate ( a large Blue Bar ex-feral who has some White on his Primarys and little dabs of White on his face and head ) recently had their first Brood, and, of their two Babys-youngsters now Fledglings, one is 'Red' like Momma, and, the other is a Blue Bar if in a different way than Poppa is, having no 'white' and having a lighter all round shade to his various Greys.



'Butterscotch' is a different Pigeon, not related to these, is also a PPMV survivor though still very young, and she is of very light purpley-Grey which is allmost an off-white, Caramel 'Brown' Wing Bar(s), and a sort of Amethyst color to her crop and neck and Head.


Her mom is is a similar color scheme, and is an ex Racer or Homer or something, and has the profile where the top line of her Beak, and forehead, are of the same plane, instead of having the pronounced forehead as the ferals tend to do.

'Butterscotch' has many older siblings from her parent's prior Broods, and these also have assimilated into the feral flocks around here...and from these I see various color schemes which I suspect they have occasioned in their own Broods.


Her parents recently had another brood, where, unlike prior times where both Babys would look just-like-mom, this time, one looks like Mom, and one takes after Dad, and Dad is a classic Blue Bar ex-feral with one White Primary, White 'Stockings' and White on the small of his back, though the youngster I think has no White anywhere.


Too dim in thee rooms to get decent images, and the flash kind of wipes things out too much, but, for the ones I can get images of, I will try and post them sometime soon.


Well, I already did post some, of the 'Goodyear Red Rubber' Red youngster and her Blue Bar sibling, and, of little 'Butterscotch', beginning in the middle of the 'Avian Ambience' Album, at -


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/avian-ambiance/mvc-492s.html

And the next several images also...


Unfortunatly, the colors do not ring 'true' in these images...!



Phil
l v


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Last picture is ash red*

The bird in the last photo is silver red bar, which is ash red or sometimes called mealy. A lot of people seem to just call them silvers but they are not really silvers as true silver is dilute blue. Silver red bar is not the dilute of anything and is one of the many ash red variations. It also has nothing to do with genetic brown, it just happens to have some brown color to it.

Bill


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