# Ice



## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

Hello, I have a question about what is the genetic make up of the ice pigeon appearance. I realize that ice gene is partually dominant and that dirty must be present. What else is known about the make of ice?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I understood that to get a good Ice expression it came down to having a bird that is homozygous Ice and homozygous Dirty as mentioned above, From there a bit of selection. I also understand there are a few unknown modifiers which help lighten the ice so this is where the selection comes into the game I think. The Ice Projects become more complicated when you want to start adding white bars and things to the mix. Ice itself is really a case of doubling up the two main genes, Ice and Dirty.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

I really surfed the web and didn't find a clear answer. 

I'm working on putting the TS white bar and barless Ice on homers... for about one year. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/what-will-i-get-58200.html

I mated 5 clean leg Ice Pigeon 3 TS Ice and 2 barless with Homers. blue bar, blue check and ash red checker. here is the result... this may help us both..


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

more pic,s


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## Dunn (May 23, 2011)

i am not very good at genetics but the last bird is fantastice brofo one wonderful looking bird


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

Thank you very much, that is very interesting. Good for you trying to tackle ice. Let me know how you do when you continue with these birds.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Albannai said:


> more pic,s


*Hi Albannai, I raise Italian owls and Ice is one of the colors in our standard.I now am breeding ice to my blue bars to get f1 that are carring the ice gene. I will be mating f1's which will produce Ice coloed birds. Some of the f1 that I have bred carry the bronzing in the bars which Quinn saids come from toy stencil, The Phenotypic Ratio of these mating is 3 to 1 which brakes down to 1 ice, 2 intermediates, and 1 wild type.. In any event I wish you good luck in your quest to put white bars on ice birds, please keep us informed on your progress as you work it out.* GEORGE


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

There was a bird once that appeared to have white bars, but it was done using the reduce gene


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes the reduced gene will create white bars. It also fades out the neck and head area.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

thank you all, it is true that ice is partial dominantbut, I don't see any expression of dirty on all young birds. I have about 20 youngs.ts effect and Ice is clear but there no sign of dirty.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Ice is such a pretty color


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Ice is partial dominant, I have had no experience with it first hand but have heard the intermediate birds can vary a lot regardless of what other genes are in the genotype. I am unsure on the dirty thing but Becky is an advocate for the dirty gene being neccesary for a good "Ice" expression. She has pointed me to the Damascenes as an example of a great Ice expression combined with homozygous dirty. They are amazing birds and seem very consistent in their expression so based on that alone I would think dirty is a must

Looking at your birds however it does look like all bar maybe one are dirty. Dark toenails and the ash red has a very dark beak.


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

Albannai, it does look like some of your young birds do have dirty. And those birds also look more paler and ice like then the others.
Evan, do you think that a white barred ice bird could be done with reduced rather then Toy stencil?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I also think that some of your youngsters are dirty. It is difficult to tell on the ice background, especially when the dirty is not homozygous.

The way to go is to breed the lightest birds together, to get lighter ice birds, but also to look out for dark under-feather caused by the dirty in ice birds.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I was hoping Rudolph may have answered the last question there because I do not know. I would imagine Reduced would play havoc with the neck so would be far from ideal.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I do not have much experience with reduced. I believe whitish bars are possible with reduced, but could never approach those black edged pure white bars that you see in ice pigeons. Reduced changes the color of the entire bird, and not just the pattern area. You might lose some of the icy quality of ice when using reduced. I actually do not know whether anyone has ever bred reduced ice though.

My advice for an ice project would be to focus on ice first, and perfect the stencil (white bar) afterwards. Selection is key for creating very light ice pigeons, since there are supporting genes that help clear up the color. These have not been accurately studied. In the absence of scientific data, selection is the only way. Breed as many F2 as you can and select only the lightest 2-4 birds to mate back to to homer stock, to create a new F1 generation, and repeat as many times as necessary to produce good ice homers while completely ignore the pattern / TS influence (you might also have to cross in ice birds again).

Once you have ice homers mate these back to the ice to transfer the TS complex. This process is a little more easy to accomplish, though not much. Keeping track of 2 dominants is easy, but the recessive ts3 splits are hard to track in the F2 and later generations.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

rudolph.est said:


> My advice for an ice project would be to focus on ice first, and perfect the stencil (white bar) afterwards. Selection is key for creating very light ice pigeons, since there are supporting genes that help clear up the color.


Ice white bar is my first target including a good standerd homer. in my area most breeders looking for homers with crest. It is true that some of these young birds crest-split (CR//cr) but this is not important for me.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Albannai said:


> Ice white bar is my first target including a good standard homer. in my area most breeders looking for homers with crest. It is true that some of these young birds crest-split (CR//cr) but this is not important for me.


What I am suggesting is doing the project in two steps. Ice first...

Ice white bar is a complex of at least 5 genes (Ic, V, Ts1, Ts2, ts3), of which at least one is recessive. For good expression I guess you need them all in homozygous form, which will be difficult to achieve, even with the dominant genes. I would have a very hard time trying to keep track of all that is going on with these crosses, and I definitely do not have the space required.

Concentrate on one or two genes at a time, until you are able to move them all over to homer stock. First V and Ic, then Ts1 and Ts2, and lastly a back-cross with F2s to transfer ts3.

I have heard of at least 3 different people on 2 different continents that have attempted to create ice homers, and these people are either still trying (going on 10 years or more) or have given up. None of these people were trying to transfer white bars (TS) as well.

I don't want to discourage you from trying, but I feel I need to warn you that you have to have a very clear breeding program in mind, and that you might have to commit to 10 years' worth of effort or more to create the birds you are talking about. I have run a computer simulation, and my guess is that on average you will need to breed more than 20 generations, and a lot of luck.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

My first project 3 years, Blue-black WB homers. I have a large number Ts1,Ts2 crossed with homers, starling, Syrian shikli and field pigeons. This may give me a chance to work faster. 
on the other hand, ice blue bar is available in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia since a long time.
here are some of my birds






Ice show racer



Blue WB shikli


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

You have some beautiful birds there. Most are recognizable as impure birds (except the show racer, which looks pretty good - standards wise). You've come quite a long way in a short time. Very impressive. Everyone else who have tried should be jealous, I'm sure they'd love to see some of your breeding records.

The problem with working homers/racers is that they also have to _home_ and there is no clear measure for that except flying them (50km at least, 200km preferably). Homer 'type' is not that hard to accomplish, but homer type means nothing. If you also want them to perform, then you need to race your birds against the birds in your area. Even when breeding 'pure' homers, racing quality is not easy to find and maintain.

There are a lot of birds in Saudi that have been created by fanciers like you and I, but this does not mean that they are common. Or even available to the general public in most countries. I believe the ice racers in Saudi are also not exactly the same breed as the Belgian, English and Dutch racers that we have here in the west. I often think that working homers do not constitute a breed, but rather a continuum of closely related varieties with common ancestry. Homers look different all over the world, but even in one country, some racing enthusiasts prefer birds with longer necks, or smaller heads, or smaller birds in general. The measure of a 'homer' is not it's look, but its performance.

As I said before, the more money and space you have for crosses, the quicker the project will go. The more birds you keep and breed, the better your chances of breeding a good F2. Since you have ice homers / racers already why are you breeding white barred ice pigeons to blue bars? You should just breed the white barred ice to your ice racers.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

most of the ice homers were crossed with damascenes and Syrian shefari therefore, some of them not good quality homers. show racers imported from Germany and Hungary. I have much better birds and I'll send some pic soon. in general in our area breeders do not race color homers. they only use them for(show). for racing they prefer standard Belgian or other racing homers. know that this is not common but, this what going in here? 
for myself, I'm (sure) they are wrong.. you know (why)? because the is (No Any) fancy club in our area. and there is (no) standard. I tried for many years but I couldn't do anything. you know why? everyone thinks he is (right), others all are (wrong)..


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I think most people think that way... Everyone thinks that he is the only one that is correct. I try really hard to admit when I was wrong (as I as about your ice projects - you've been able to do much better than many other people). You'll be the first in the world to have white barred ice homers, I am sure of it...

I thought that one ice homer looked like it had Damascene (in the shape of the head), but wasn't sure enough to comment. Thanks for validating my hunch! Everyone I have spoken to about it, agrees that it is difficult to get rid of the somewhat different shape of the head in Damascene crosses.

I also don't fly my rare color homers competitively, because the sport is just too expensive. But I do take them out myself at least once a month. It is a lot of fun racing the car home, trying to get there before the birds do!


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