# We were tricked



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

About a month and a half ago, we adopted Blue whose owner assured us was a female. After quarantine, put "her" in with Fiona who lays eggs constantly. Well, I just got home and saw a broken egg. I told Fiona and Blue how sorry I was that their egg broke. Then saw a baby oops pigeon! Guess will have to swap out the eggs for fake eggs religiously. Blue's owner lied to us. Not sure how to find homes for baby and probably a second baby. Will have to read up on care. Fiona made a nest on newspaper. Do I need to provide a nest or nesting materials to prevent splay leg? Have given our "girls" Timothy and Bermuda hay pieces but they usually discard them. Now what? I am not amused. I would not have adopted Blue had I known he was a male. The cages are only big enough for two pigeons each. Plus my significant other will be furious.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

OMG! I can't believe this! Why would anyone lie about such a thing? 
Maybe the other woman was really dumb and didn't know which of her own birds were which. Maybe she thought the male was gone, but it was the female. Is it possible that she thought that Blue was a female. I just can't believe that someone would lie about that.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Are there certain materials that prevent splay legs?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. Straw is good if you can pile it up in a nest bowl or something, so that when the parents sit on the babies, their weight doesn't push down on the babies too much which then pushes their legs out to the side. The straw also gives the babies something to hold onto, which helps to keep their legs under them. My birds also love the 9 and 11 inch pine needles.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Where do you get straw...feed store? Is that different from hay? Sorry, am just a city girl who has.guinea pigs. Where do you get pine needles? We live under oaks not pines here. Also what do you use for a nest bowl? Do I need to get a special type of bowl? Will have to run ads I guess for squeakers for adoption. Will call them Oops Jr and Oh No! I guess. They should be interesting as mom and dad are pretty birds I think. Right now though they are really ugly. Should have gotten a DNA test for Blue. Fiona is overjoyed though...first of her dozens of eggs that are hatching. Can you get a male pigeon something like a vasectomy?  just kidding.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I do get it mostly at feed stores or where ever they are selling it. Yes it is different from hay. It's stiffer than hay which is softer. So it's better for building nests that give the babies something to grab onto. You can use the Timothy hay if you pile it high enough so the weight of the parents doesn't push down too much on the babies. I would call that stupid woman who told you that Blue was a female. Use a dog dish that is big enough to 2 babies to grow up in. Or use a cardboard box that you cut down to the right size. Or 2 bricks in the corner of the cage, to enclose a small area for a nest, and to hold the nesting material in.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Leave that nest area alone and just put in the cage some nesting material maybe index cards cut up in small thin stripes or newspaper cut up in stripes and let them the male and female pigeon handle the transport to the area and the making of the nest..The most important thing at this time is "leave the nesting area alone" and do not move it or clean it==leave it alone. Pet smart has straw or hay and just place this in the cage and let the parents worry about making a nest for the babies---right now they are waiting for the second egg to hatch-----------leave everything alone....Later we will worry about baby feet---your mind is just too fertile with toooooo many thoughts at this time-...Put fresh food and water down and clean around the nesting area but leave it build up with stuff that they like even their pooping at this time---leave them alone for they know what to do....Why have you not finished the "fly pen" and let these pigeons fly free and out of the cages---this is cruel to me. Hire a carpenter or something for that fly pen will make life a lot easier for you as well as you really having a true learning experience with your pigeons..Shame on you----finish that fly pen for you did all the really hard work already. You should switch out any egg the first day or so whether you think it is fertile or not---well welcome to the world of pigeon babies---but leave them alone and maybe throw a towel or something over their area to give them a more private spot. If you interfere you might wind up with dead babies or abandonment so most important----leave the nesting area and parents alone for they know what to do.. Congrats....c.hert


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Will try to get straw tomorrow. Will the baby/babies be ok until I can get a bowl or should I go out there with a flashlight and put some kind of bowl? I feel like a nervous grandmother or godmother...will leave them alone.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Read the above posting..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If I made a nest in the same spot and placed the baby in it, that wouldn't bother my birds. It is better if they can build it themselves, but now the baby is here, and they didn't, so I would do it. Didn't you give them a nest to lay their eggs in? They should have had a nest to lay eggs and sit on them in, even if they were both females. Not just laying eggs on the floor. Sorry, but even if they do build a nest with the materials you provide, the baby will still be sitting on the floor, and they will just put the straw around him.There will still be no nesting material under the babies. Which is really important. I have never had trouble doing this. Just try to keep them roughly in the same place. You can take care of it tomorrow.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

That baby is in a cage on top of newspapers and the parents will stick other nesting to it in time by way of pooping in the area and getting stripes of material that is available and right now they are waiting for that second egg to hatch and I would not interfere at all with this process for that would cause "serious problems" for the baby or babies at this time. The parents can handle this themselves and as that female is sitting on her eggs the male will offer her "one thin nesting material at a time and she will place it under herself" let them take care of this and do not move anything at this time..That's my advice---they know what to do just give them the materials and fresh food and water and a private spot maybe throwing a towel over the area.. Are they on a floor or in a cage with newspaper down....??? In a few days after everything is settled down you can worry about a nesting bowl of some kind but by that time they would have made a nice kind of nesting place and the first few feedings for babies are the very very most important ones for its sets up their immunity for life as well as getting them ready and able to digest protein. I would leave them be unless of course they are in danger. In a few days you could put some sort of guarding situation on the bottom half of the cage in the area like maybe sort of bumper guards in babies cribs so they will not get caught in the wires--if they are in danger of that. I use freezer paper and cut it to size and stick it by tape so the wires are not there--like bumper guards but for now-------leave things be and wait for the second egg to hatch...How wonderful and how precious they are..Yes....congrats...Worry about other things later..You will just love them---you'll see--build your fly pen---Yes...Precious Babies---how nice....

Hey Runt that cwebster has a few new babies and she calls them the Oop.s wonder what that means. Hey stupid we were Oop.s too. ha ha ha..peep peep peep....


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

How terrible that Blue's owner would lie to you like that! If she didn't know the gender with absolute certainty, she should have said she was not sure. Terrible. I have to say, for the time being I would leave the babies alone, at least until the second baby hatches. Straw is easy to tell apart from hay of any kind. If you go to a feed store you could probably get it for free, considering the trivial amount you would need, especially since it is sold as a bale there, and quite a lot comes apart loading and unloading, more then enough for what you would need it for. It is often sold as bedding for horses because it is softer, though not very absorbent compared to shavings. The best way to tell it apart is the color and texture. Straw is a blond yellow, and smooth, while hay, be it grass or alfalfa is green and textured. You will have to let us know how this journey progresses. I am sure your happy couple made some cute babies.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good morning cwebster. Hope you are feeling calmer today. So that you are not changing things alot, maybe you can just cover that side with a towel to close them off a bit from the other birds, by pinning a towel halfway up on that side of the cage. Or just slipping a large piece of cardboard between the lower half of the two cages. This will give them a little privacy from the other 2 birds. It should make them feel calmer.
If you can find a soft piece of lambswool, like the fabric they cover dogs beds with sometime, or that soft light colored pad that they put in dog crates to make them softer for the dog to lie down. You could cut a piece large enough to put under the babies. That would give them a bit of padding without changing the look of things that much. After maybe a weeks time you can add the straw. By then they will be more comfortable with being parents and all. So that way you aren't changing things much, so not to upset the parents. Stay calm and don't worry. Take this a step at a time. Don't worry about anything beyond now. Wait till you see how cute they are.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

OMG!!!! Sorry to hear about the deceit, but congratulations to mom and dad!!!! Enjoy the precious little one/s.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

cwebster said:


> About a month and a half ago, we adopted Blue whose owner assured us was a female. After quarantine, put "her" in with Fiona who lays eggs constantly. Well, I just got home and saw a broken egg. I told Fiona and Blue how sorry I was that their egg broke. Then saw a baby oops pigeon! Guess will have to swap out the eggs for fake eggs religiously. Blue's owner lied to us. Not sure how to find homes for baby and probably a second baby. Will have to read up on care. Fiona made a nest on newspaper. Do I need to provide a nest or nesting materials to prevent splay leg? Have given our "girls" Timothy and Bermuda hay pieces but they usually discard them. Now what? I am not amused. I would not have adopted Blue had I known he was a male. The cages are only big enough for two pigeons each. Plus my significant other will be furious.


Allot of people rehoming pigeons are not meaning to "trick" anyone but , because they think they are so sure of the sex and mean well. 

If they told you the new pigeon laid eggs then that is lying, unless they were in a confusing loft with other pigeons and missed judged who was who. I don't know what the situation was but I would of adopted a proven hen, meaning she has laid eggs before. If that is what they claimed and knowing the opposite to be true , then yes, shame on them. 

It is not a disaster though, because of fake eggs. But you will be in a position of rehoming birds you do not know the sex of.


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## pigeonflier (May 4, 2014)

So your saying that you had no idea there was a male in the cage till you saw a egg hatch or am I reading this wrong? You did not know it was a male and your furious that the previous owner did not also?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The woman who owned the bird said that it was a female whose mate had died.
She had hatched a son, and the woman didn't want to take the chance of them pairing up, so wanted to rehome the hen. Either she lied, or didn't even know which of the pair of her own birds was male and which was female.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I know it's not what you had planned but I would be overjoyed with a surprise like that, lol. Once had similar with a lone 'male' Guinea pig that surprised me with four perfect babies overnight, was like Christmas came early for me and the kids, ha ha. I wouldn't think you were purposely lied to but that she thought this genuinely was a female bird, so many different opinions on how to tell the sex and I bet all are wrong. If you want to know the sex of the babies you can send the shells to Animal Genetics (Google) and they DNA sex for £15 each - don't know what that equates to where you are. 
Don't panic, mother nature is wonderful and so are pigeons - let them do it all for you and just keep an eye. Congratulations and enjoy your little family.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Will try to retrieve the eggs and have them tested. Didn't know that was a possibility!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

FredaH said:


> I know it's not what you had planned but I would be overjoyed with a surprise like that, lol. Once had similar with a lone 'male' Guinea pig that surprised me with four perfect babies overnight, was like Christmas came early for me and the kids, ha ha.* I wouldn't think you were purposely lied to but that she thought this genuinely was a female bird, *so many different opinions on how to tell the sex and I bet all are wrong. If you want to know the sex of the babies you can send the shells to Animal Genetics (Google) and they DNA sex for £15 each - don't know what that equates to where you are.
> Don't panic, mother nature is wonderful and so are pigeons - let them do it all for you and just keep an eye. Congratulations and enjoy your little family.


 
The woman only has a few birds. She said this one laid eggs and hatched a male. Now how could she have mixed that up? Not like she tried to figure out the gender. She said she had eggs and raised the baby.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Just got home and of course checked the girls...and boy...first thing. The second little baby has hatched. Fiona and Blue look very proud. I put a handful of straw in the cage for them if they choose to use it.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Do the babies need any special care? Should I heat the shed? It will be in the low 50s tonight I think.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> The woman only has a few birds. She said this one laid eggs and hatched a male. Now how could she have mixed that up? Not like she tried to figure out the gender. She said she had eggs and raised the baby.


It's difficult to believe I suppose but with both parents doing the feeding perhaps she 'thought' the bird that laid the eggs was actually the boy. My girl does all the dancing and cooing and takes control of the feed bowls and the boys just let her. Maybe there could have been a mix up there. Mine are only young and yet I can see the difference in the build, much thicker necks and taller birds the boys are but my three live with me and I see them closely every day, some people might not be as observant. Shame for cwebster to have this happen though but a lovely experience all the same.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cwebster said:


> Just got home and of course checked the girls...and boy...first thing. The second little baby has hatched. Fiona and Blue look very proud. I put a handful of straw in the cage for them if they choose to use it.


*You know we are going to want pictures of the little darlings, don't you??? [/B




cwebster said:



Do the babies need any special care? Should I heat the shed? It will be in the low 50s tonight I think.

Click to expand...

Mom usually sits on them at night and protects them when they are that young.*


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

The mama and daddy will keep them warm at night time no worries and the thing to worry about is the temperature during the day because a lot of heat could be bad because of dehydration and I assume you have this handled. Continuing from my other picture posting here are some more Oop.s babies---the last batch and the one closest to the window is called "Nefertari" ( a friend named her) and her brother who has no name at this time. 

Hey cwebster we are Oop babies too because our owner the "old thing" could not see and did not know the difference from a plastic egg to a real one. lol lol Here we are and you will learn to just love us "isn't that so No name"...lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh chert, that's funny! And very cute.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster, they will be fine. As chert has said, the parents will keep them snug. Besides 50 is not all that cold. It's hard during the summer, as the heat can be hard on them. I know you're worried, but you will get used to them and be an old pro soon. And they are so cute. Wait till you see how adorable they are at a week or 2 old. You will love them. It's really hard not to love a baby pigeon. 
As was also mentioned, all this would have been easier if you had converted the shed to a loft and let them get around. You probably would have realized that the sneaky little Blue was a male, just by his behavior, which you don't get to see in a cage. It would be easy, and it would actually be easier for you in the end. And they would be happier to be able to get around and do more than sit in a cage. I wish you would consider it. If I were closer, I would love to help you build nest boxes and put up perches. It's fun setting it up, and so much more fun enjoying them that way, than in cages. With an aviary for them to go outside and bathe together and get some sun and fresh breezes when they blow. Try not to worry too much. They should be fine. At about a week though, I would put in a nest of some kind and get them off the slippery nespaper. This gives you a few days to come up with something for a nest.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

c.hert and Jay3 and Skyeking and FredaH, will try to get photos soon. Both babies looked fine tonight. Saw Fiona feeding them crop milk. Will consider the suggestions for converting the shed but right now am trying to minimize the spread of pigeon stuff because of my lungs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I understand about your lungs, we have problems with that also, but the birds living freely in the shed as a loft doesn't really make it any worse, than in cages. And them spending their lives in cages, where they never get out to really move around and socialize and get to fly across the loft at least, isn't fair to them. Not much they can do all day and night in a cage, even a large one. It doesn't really make it much more work, and lots more enjoyable to spend time with them that way.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Some of those racing people have real good set up's attached to their lofts like I call "Sunning Decks" with windows that go outside where the birdies can bath and things like that and I do not know the proper name of these "outside outlets"---lol...Then you could leave the pigeons fly free in your loft and be able to shut the window as well in bad weather. I will check into this further and I believe that they sell a unit at Foy"s but do not know the detail of all of this...As the babies grow larger they are going to need exercise and a place to get out of the cage and for this I set up a table with a no skid type of top where they go out and into the cage and in time they will fly down to the bottom of the loft at their leisure. I will look for some pictures of this other type of deal that I am talking about. You could get a wooden screen to the loft and have a double door and leave the door open for air in your loft as well..Just suggestions here and trying to find another picture for you of some more Oop babies..lol I brought up this thread on Loft pictures.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34905&d=1461349191
A neat little loft with the outside window area for sunning but you could make them any size attached to your loft...Just a idea. That thread is just wonderful to look at and get some more ideas.. Now looking for some Oop babies in the loft. lol

Here I am and my name is Oop's and I went to a large University and had surgery on my 90 degree up in the air leg---Look at me now normal and flying and I have a wife and she is sitting on two eggs (plastic I switched) and I am a happy camper...That surgeon was a pain in the ass but look at how beautiful I am and I was a mistake. lol lol Want to see my pretty wife?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

chert, I believe you are referring to these. They are still called aviaries. They're just small.
http://www.lcsupply.com/LCS-Aviary-Above-Loft/productinfo/AVI/


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Our cages are over 5 ft long so are pretty roomy.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm so happy to know the babies are doing fine, I bet they're all yellow and fluffy - makes me so broody just thinking about them. Wishing them and their sneaky parents the very best of luck and sending love across the pond to the lovely little family. 
When I clean up my pigeons mess I always give it a spray first because I've read that the dust is what's bad for our lungs, so I don't scrape up dry droppings. I know I go on about it but I use a spray made up with water and half a teaspoon of pigeon bath salts because it dissolves droppings and they pick up easily on a kiddies sand spade with almost no mark left behind. When I have my aviary I'll spray the floor too and use a garden hoe to lift the poop. I also give a fine spray to the cages before I clean them to stop spores flying around as much as possible. That's why I bath them in salts, it helps get rid of the dust they create. 
I'm so paranoid about getting psittacosis and not being able to enjoy my babes that I pick up poop as soon as I see it, cages are open twelve hours a day and cleaned whenever they go in and soil - couldn't bear to not be able to have them indoors when I want. Just keep the dust minimal cwebster and don't scrape dry poop, I'm sure you know this already though.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

I wear a respirator and change clothes when in the shed so don't sweep up anything without protection now per doctors orders.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Oh I see, I didn't realise you were so compromised cwebster, sorry to hear that. Their dust is so fine that it gets everywhere doesn't it? I find it on my Venetian blinds even with all the spraying so I perish the thought of what it would be like without.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You got the idea Jay3 but these aviaries are much larger and have a slanted wire roof type of arrangement so other birds will not land on the top of them and these are much larger like you suggested that takes up the side of her loft but in reality she could have built any size that she deems okay for her few pigeons that she has and these also can house a nice bath tub for them to take baths in and it would be outside for them to get sun and air and even if they choose to just look at the pretty sky. If people keep their pigeons in cages they really do need to exercise daily and most people that have pigeons as pets inside their home (she cannot do because of health conditions) they usually let their pigeons exercise and take them out of the cage just to say hi to them and fool around with them like I do my Catnip because she is my television news buddy. But to live in a cage all their life especially when it is just beautiful outside with nice breezes seeing other wildlife to where they feel like a pigeon with some kind of quality life I wish this for pigeons and being inside a small loft in a cage no matter how large to me is just cruel to where she can have perches in that loft of hers and let them be free inside the loft as well as having access to outside. She and her love one have already done all the hard work of getting that loft to be put in place and getting fans and things that are needed and not to finish that job is just unimaginable to me. Here they are sitting in a cage and not being able to have "full flight" of their wings--this to me is untasteful. Heck send her four pigeons to me and get out of the pigeon caring business. She needs to complete the job of her really nice loft in my opinion. If will be a lot easier for her too when she cleans it for she can get in and out quicker. She is just a overprotective pigeon mama who is scared to leave them fly loose. Just my opinion..


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

c.hert, your post makes me want to quit PT. I don't have to justify what I do to you or to anyone. I take the birds out each day, with my special clothing and mask on. They are very well cared for. They seem pretty content. There are pairs of red tailed and red shouldered Hawks who nest in our trees, along with several feral cats and raccoons who love birds who live in our yard. I have an aggressive and mentally ill neighbor who along with his son uses a bow and arrow and pellet gun to shoot things, who kidnapped a cat he thought was ours soon after we moved in. I did not get rid of the birds when I got really sick but instead got them the best shed and large flight cages I could along with a friend for each bird and climate controls and doors and windows for breezes. They have nice bath tubs on nice days. I really don't appreciate your accusations of cruelty. If you think I am just an "overprotective pigeon mama," you are entitled to your opinion. But I am also entitled to care for our birds as I see fit. We only got started with pigeons after we rescued a critically injured feral who was our tv buddy who had the run of the house until the pigeon dust made me really ill. Please take a walk in another's shoes before offering criticism.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I myself, have been thru the ringer with the "pigeon lung", it is a horrible. I was fortunate that my husband built me a walk in open aviary (attached to coop) with complete air flow, like being outside, nothing but fresh air, so I could tend to each pigeon and look them over on a regular basis.

You have done quite well trying to adapt and continuing to provide your birds with quality care and love and compassion that they are used to. I know you strive to do your best for your babies, and will continue to do so.

I thank you for taking in these needy birds. *


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Sorry if I offended you and it sounds like you have things in control..Good for you...It would just be a lot easier for you and I do not think you realize this..No offend meant.. You write up a good storm here and everything sounds so perfect and I do know that you care for your pigeons wonderful and spend money on their health as well. I give this to you...But you built this real nice loft and put a lot of work into it and I realize this because I have been there and years ago had three disabled pigeons in cages for awhile until I could figure out things. Pigeons live to fly for they are "air machines", and since you have to do so little to let them free in your loft to where they fly free why not take that next step? A larger window going out the side of the loft with hard wire screening will not be too obvious to the next door neighbor if you camouflage and you can or put it on the other side..As far as predators if you secure it well there would be no danger of this and if it is a something more larger like a fly pen you can also protect from predators as you figure out things with you thinking cap on. All kinds of people come on this forum with their questions and if a person cannot say what they really feel about the care of animals or offer their suggestions from actual experience it makes one think--why bother..Yes I happen to think it is cruel to have a pigeon in a cage even if it is five foot long and divided in the middle part of it so other birds can be housed on the other side of it. I think it is cruel for a puppy or dog to be in a cage for 24 hours a day as well--I do have my opinions. My best forum friend who is passed raised four pigeons in her home but she gave them exercise everyday and took just as good care of them as you do and I am looking at it from knowing how much pigeons love to fly as well as wanting you to have a true learning experience with these birdies and not just looking at them in a cage. You can lead a horsey to water but you cannot make it drink. One more thing for you to worry about---those cages for you baby birdies are "dangerous"---my very first baby bird got entangled in the wires and I found it dead---so now you will think about how to avoid this possible situation as well. I hate those wire cages and in my opinion are dangerous. Of course this is from actual experience and so so sad..I am glad that you have your pigeons and take care of them and saved them as well but there is a better type of quality of life for them and you...For it is so much more easier and i do not think that you realize this--less trash--less time--more enjoyment because you are not on a "have to type of schedule each day for it you get busy with life you can put off the cleaning of the loft for a few days and just put down extra fresh water. There are so many many benefits to all of this and you are very fortunate--you own your property and have built a real nice loft in your back yard and other people just do not have this option..Be brave take the next step or not--its up to you..I gave my best suggestions and advice at this junction according to my habits and like and little bit of experienced wisdom going both ways so do not be hurt by my words and suggestions.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Cwebster, please don't talk about leaving PT. I know c.hert didn't mean to make you feel bad. She is just trying to get you to see that it would be easier for both you and the birds minus the cages. It would be easier for you, as that many birds really don't mess up a little shed like that much at all. You could walk in and spend time with them, and cleaning really would be easier than cleaning cages. I know, as I do both. 

Now on another note...........How are the cute little ones. Any pictures would be wonderful. Wait till you see how cute they get. You will fall in love with them. I just had an oops. And we hadn't missed any eggs in quite a while, but every now and then one gets by you. It does upset me when that happens, but I always end up falling in love with them. You can't help it. You'll see. LOL.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> OMG! I can't believe this! Why would anyone lie about such a thing?
> Maybe the other woman was really dumb and didn't know which of her own birds were which. Maybe she thought the male was gone, but it was the female. Is it possible that she thought that Blue was a female. I just can't believe that someone would lie about that.


Hey just gone through this first post and Jay you should have informed me on this, so I won here. Yay    
What will you say now???


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

cwebster said:


> About a month and a half ago, we adopted Blue whose owner assured us was a female. After quarantine, put "her" in with Fiona who lays eggs constantly. Well, I just got home and saw a broken egg. I told Fiona and Blue how sorry I was that their egg broke. Then saw a baby oops pigeon! Guess will have to swap out the eggs for fake eggs religiously. Blue's owner lied to us. Not sure how to find homes for baby and probably a second baby. Will have to read up on care. Fiona made a nest on newspaper. Do I need to provide a nest or nesting materials to prevent splay leg? Have given our "girls" Timothy and Bermuda hay pieces but they usually discard them. Now what? I am not amused. I would not have adopted Blue had I known he was a male. The cages are only big enough for two pigeons each. Plus my significant other will be furious.


I am sorry cwebster if the owner lied to you that was really bad, just for rehoming? Don't know. 
But yes may be she was unsure about the gender and confused but then she shouldn't have been that much confident that she raised a son etc. Well, whatever, nothing can be done now. I know you weren't happy but this is really a lovely experience seeing them growing up, so enjoy. 
You may rehome them when future demands. 
Cheers!
And never think about quitting PT, else I will chase you through pms  
c. hert too is such a nice soul, it just sometimes we don't get tuned up with someone or due to opinion differences. Rest we are all friends. Pls don't feel offended. You are such a nice carer of critters and I really appreciate what you do. Thanks for that kind heart. Keep it up


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

Cwebster, hypersensitivity is a terrible disease to have when you love birds. I have seen it first hand. I know you most likely fought and defied the primary orders of your pulmonologist by simply keeping your birds. That in and of its self, shows how much you love and value your birds. When you came on after moving them to their new shed area, you were asking about heating and air-conditioning, so it is obvious their health and welfare is very important to you. I believe all C.hert was doing was expressing possible future improvements that could be made, since we all know that you want to do anything that makes your birds happy. I can also say that, since we share the common thread of having/ had house birds, and our knowledge of hypersensitivity, they make a lot more work for us when inside, and the dust/dander is at its worst when they are indoors. Sometimes suggestions and comments are made with the intent to be helpful, but can be taken as criticism or put downs. I can admit that I am a total over protective pet parent, be it pigeon, horse or cat, and I make no apologies for that. In the end we make decisions that we believe are best for the animals we love, but I think it is wise for us to listen to the philosophies of others, even if we choose to stay on the same path we are already on. I must say, I hope both you and c.hert stay on PT. Kindness and opinions given without expectations of something in return is almost unheard-of these days, so it is wonderful to see it so freely given by the two of you.

On a side note, you can add my name to the list of people who want to see a picture of the babies!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Read everything and be sure to share some pictures of the babies cwebster for we all love pictures. Babies are so precious and do you want us to help you give them a name? I think we could figure out some names for the babies unless you have names you already like..Pictures,Pictures and more Pictures..Yes..


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Pictures are on high demand. Lol


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kiddy said:


> Pictures are on high demand. Lol


 *Most definitely! *


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

tried to submit photos but they are too large.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I upload mine on tinypic, then resize to 'message board' size then copy and paste the message board link once the pic has uploaded. Hope you get the hang of it because I'm dying to see these kids.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

OK, will try resizing.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Mom and Dad, Fiona and Blue.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Try again.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Oh goodness, your birds are beautiful cwebster, such lovely colours. Those babies are going to be so pretty, well they already are, just adorable. Now I'm all broody and want babies again. I think this is how people end up with a loft full because you can never have too many, lol. 
I do admire you for keeping your birds, what with your health problems and all - don't think many people would be so committed and caring.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Very cute they are. Be sure to keep adding straw as newspaper is very slippery, and their legs will splay out. They will get cuter and cuter.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Wow they are really very very cute and loved the parents too. They are gorgeous. I think Fiona is at front? And Blue is behind her? Or I am wrong?


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

I just read this thread and I am sorry Blue turned out to be a boy! I know how much you prefer to have girls only. He is a very handsome bird though and I'm sure he will make beautiful Fiona very happy!  

The babies are soooo cute already!! I wish I could let my pigeons hatch at least one, but because I live in an apartment I can't let them, so consider yourself very lucky! congrats for being a pigeon grandma!! please post more pictures when you can.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

With parents like that, you know the babies are going to be cute, but they are even more adorable then expected. Congrats on the new additions to the family cwebster!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*The parents and the "kids" are lovely. The kids will be a nice addition to your flock! Keep the pics coming! Thank you.*


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Mom and Dad are feeding them but no longer constantly sitting on them and the oldest has his eyes open.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cute when they open their eyes. Well right now it's a bit warm to be sat on for the little ones.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am concerned because I noticed today that the larger older hatchling doesn't sound right...when he is trying to get fed, he sounds like he is making loud clucking noises, as if he has a respiratory infection. I have heated the shed at night to keep it at 70 degrees. ??


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you sure it is his breathing, or is he purposely making the clicking sound? He is what, about 10 days old or so now?
I wouldn't heat the shed. It needs to be able to cool off at night to stay cooler for the next days heat. It can't possibly get very cold in that shed during the night.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cwebster said:


> Am concerned because I noticed today that the larger older hatchling doesn't sound right...when he is trying to get fed, he sounds like he is making loud clucking noises, as if he has a respiratory infection. I have heated the shed at night to keep it at 70 degrees. ??


*Are you anywhere near the babies when they are getting fed? If it is just a clicking sound, and he is trying to stand-and look BIG, he may just be trying to protect his food/source. *


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am just outside the cage when I hear the clicking. Didn't know babies make such a loud sound. Wish I could video it and post it. Am hoping it is normal and not a respiratory infection.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Skyeking said:


> *Are you anywhere near the babies when they are getting fed? If it is just a clicking sound, and he is trying to stand-and look BIG, he may just be trying to protect his food/source. *


That is what I'm thinking. If they are not handled much and don't really know you, they will do that as a warning for you to stay away. Some will start that at a very early age if you come near their box. He doesn't know you, so you are regarded as a threat. I'm sorry to say that, as I know it is going to make you feel bad, but he is trying to protect himself against you. You need to handle them a bit, especially if he is starting that this young. They all have different personalities. If he doesn't get to know you now, he will not be friendly as he grows. Pick them up gently and hold them, talk to them. Just don't drop them. Then they will get to know that you are not the enemy. In a loft situation, I think it's easier, as you can hand feed the parents at the box, and this shows the little ones that you are friend and not foe. Eventually they will toddle over to join them. This is how they get to know you. It's harder if the parents aren't friendly, and it's harder if the baby starts threatening you like that. This is how ferals will grow up to view humans as the enemy. It's good for their protection, but not if they are pets.
Even if later you are planning on finding homes for them, you want them to be friendly.
They will do this, not because of being fed, but if you just come near. They view you as a predator. You don't want them to feel that way. In a loft situation, they see the other birds coming to you, and you feeding them. This is how they learn. Harder if they are in cages, as the other birds are not flying to you.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Am just outside the cage when I hear the clicking. Didn't know babies make such a loud sound. Wish I could video it and post it. Am hoping it is normal and not a respiratory infection.


One of my babies was treated for a possible respiratory infection at a few days old and you could clearly hear the click with every breath taken. It's different with yours because the parents are raising them and obviously I'd imagine when you handle them they may be doing what Skyeking and Jay are saying. With my girl the clicking was so regular and so rhythmic that you could tell it was a breathing problem when you held her close to your ear. She had Baytril 0.09ml twice daily for seven days and the clicking stopped completely. She also moved kind of unsteadily which was something I only noticed after I'd raised the other two, who were much more upright and moved around the bator with less difficulty. Because she was hand reared and I'd mixed the formula as said on the tub I wondered if some had trickled down the wrong way - I mixed thicker for the other two and had no problems but yours are raised naturally and I'm guessing the other suggestions are correct. Hope so because you should enjoy your babies and not worry unduly.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

The babies are growing so fast! One looks like a mini pigeon, a lot like mom. How soon before I need to worry about them being old enough to breed? Will probably get DNA testing and look for homes for them. Also how soon will mom and dad start laying eggs again? Thanks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It depends on the birds. They could lay again any time now, so just watch for eggs.
The babies could start breeding at 4 or 5 months if they start early.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> It depends on the birds. They could lay again any time now, so just watch for eggs.
> The babies could start breeding at 4 or 5 months if they start early.


Wow, thats really early. Puddles was almost 7 months before she started laying eggs.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am watching Fiona and Blue carefully so they don't sneak any more eggs past me. The babies are growing fast although the older is sure the bigger of the two.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, they do grow very fast. Cute at this age though. If you want them to be friendly, then you need to start handling them a bit. Can you feed the parents from your hand? If so then that's good to do, as the babies will see that, and will eventually try to join them for the treat.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Neither Fiona or Blue eats from my hand but Fiona begs to be petted and jumps out of the cage to sit on me and spend time with me. We haven't had Blue long enough for him to get as tame as our other birds. I have started gently picking up the babies but dad especially gets very protective of them and vocalizes at me so I only touch them for a few seconds. One stretches and has started opening and flapping his wings as if to fly while the other still looks smaller and resembles a vulture, without all his feathers yet. The smaller one is darker like Blue's other offspring that was supposed to be "her" son. I think they are about 16 days old now. The pigeons in the other cage, Lucy and Tracy, seem fascinated by them and Tracy seems jealous, being more aggressive than in the past when I put my hand in their cage to feed them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pictures if you get a chance. I love babies.............................in someone elses loft.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Have been taking pictures daily but have trouble getting them from the camera onto PT. Will post some soon especially now they are better looking.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh......................They're always cute. When they're little, they are so ugly that they are adorable. LOL.


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Oh......................They're always cute. When they're little, *they are so ugly that they are adorable.* *LOL.*


LOL yesssss!!! I think they are the cutest thing ever!! I just love them!!

cwebster, please post pictures when you can, would love to see how they're doing


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Will try to post photos soon. Caught Blue in the act tonight...but Fiona was egging him on, giving him the beak. So I will have to watch their cage carefully for new eggs. The little ones are growing up fast.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Goodness they don't waste any time do they? In front of the children and all!


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

FredaH said:


> Goodness they don't waste any time do they? In front of the children and all!


LOL  ....


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

The babies are approaching three days old. Will try again to post photos. The older one looks a lot like Fiona. The younger smaller one we call Vulture Face or Fugly when he can't hear us, he is dark gray with a white head and black tale. Am a little worried because he bobs his tail. Am trying to hold them briefly every day but Fiona doesn't want us doing that. They are preening and flapping.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cwebster said:


> The babies are approaching three days old. Will try again to post photos. The older one looks a lot like Fiona. The younger smaller one we call Vulture Face or Fugly when he can't hear us, he is dark gray with a white head and black tale. Am a little worried because he bobs his tail. Am trying to hold them briefly every day but Fiona doesn't want us doing that. They are preening and flapping.


*You mean 3 weeks?? They gotta be about 18 days old, right?? Oh, we need some updated pics, please? Sounds like they are doing well.*


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

cwebster said:


> The babies are approaching three days old. Will try again to post photos. The older one looks a lot like Fiona. The younger smaller one we call Vulture Face or Fugly when he can't hear us, he is dark gray with a white head and black tale. Am a little worried because he bobs his tail. Am trying to hold them briefly every day but Fiona doesn't want us doing that. They are preening and flapping.


glad to hear they are doing well, they must be cute by now! hope you can post pictures of them soon


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wow, time flies! We want to see them.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Have taken punctures daily but desktop isn't working so haven't been able to post any yet. Fiona has started acting like she is ready to lay again so I have fake eggs ready.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Swapped a fake egg for Fionas first post baby egg. She seems to be sitting on it but I feel kind of guilty.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I always feel guilty too, but better than having more babies.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cwebster said:


> Swapped a fake egg for Fionas first post baby egg. She seems to be sitting on it but I feel kind of guilty.


*I hear ya, but then I picture "overcrowding" in my head and then don't feel bad anymore.*


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

I suppose a vasectomy for Blue is out of the question?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Skyeking said:


> *I hear ya, but then I picture "overcrowding" in my head and then don't feel bad anymore.*


That's what I do. I tell them that in order to be able to keep them uncrowded and healthy, that the eggs must go. 
Wouldn't it be great if they laid eggs once a year?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Took away Fionas second real egg and now she is sitting cheerfully on two fake ones.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good! I'm glad she's happy.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Saw Blue, the adult male, bite the older baby repeatedly when the baby cheered from r food tonight. Is this normal behavior? Am not sure whether the babies are eating seed yet. Will weigh them tomorrow. How soon can the babies start breeding? Am thinking about getting DNA tests. Should I take the babies or dad out to prevent aggression? Fiona is happily sitting on the two fake eggs and Vulture Face, the younger baby, sits beside her.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Oh poor little baby. I don't know what others would do but I personally would remove the boy for a while until the babes have either left or are strong enough to fend for themselves a bit. Even with my adults I butt in and stop quarrels because I'm scared one could get an eye pecked and damage it. I suppose it's natural behaviour but if the baby can't actually get away then it's a sitting target - naughty daddy Blue. 
I've just sent my two shells off for DNA testing to their uk lab, they're fast and you get a certificate in the post with the birds details (mine have band numbers) and sex for your records or if you want to rehome them later. 
http://www.animalgenetics.us/Avian/DNA_Sexing/DNA-Sexing-Index.asp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't remove the baby. If you do that, then you are going to have to hand feed and wean the babies. What Blue is doing is normal. He is trying to encourage the baby to learn to eat. If they didn't do that, then the babies would never wean. I don't think he'll hurt the baby. But he has to teach him not to constantly go after the parents for food.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

FredaH, thank you for the link. Wish I had saved the eggs. Will try sending feathers or blood but if the feathers must be plucked or I have to send blood may ask the vet to do it as I don't have the heart to hurt the little cuties. Will probably put Blue by himself today as I don't want him harming the babies.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay3, hope you are right about him just wanting the babies to eat. They are 27 and 25 days old now I think. I have seen Fiona junior pecking at seed but not Vulture Face.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster, he is the one feeding now, the Mom is on eggs. He is their only food source, so if you take him out, they will not get fed. The Mom may, but she may not. In a normal loft situation, the parents would be spending a lot of time out of the nest box at this age of the babies. They really need to be able to get out and away, as the babies will constantly chase after them for food. In your situation, where they are caged, the parents can't get away from the babies. That causes a lot of stress. If anything, I feel bad for Blue. Babies can be relentless. Imagine that all day long.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would it help for me to put a nest box in the cage? I can't believe they have eggs again already. They are relentless about making more pigeons! The babies are cute and if I had a source for pigeon homes I would let them keep having babies but I know they would not enjoy overcrowding...and each pair would produce two more every month. The math is frightening.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am also not sure what to do if one or more if the babies is a male. If I can't find homes I could put a female in with Lucy and Tracy maybe but don't think Fiona and Blue would appreciate having another male around. And I have read that two males don't do well together. The babies are adorable but two local breeders have ads on Craigslist continuously so there isn't a market for birds and these are mixed pigeons. The club people only want racers. So I hope the babies are females and that I can rearrange living arrangements if I have to. The alternative would be to rehome Blue which would be very sad. Darn birds for being so sneaky and popping out two oops birds!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Or maybe I can put another double flight cage in the shed and put the babies in there eventually. But I have been promising the scrub hay the next double flight cage. I can't believe Blue turned out to be a make after I was so careful. Am sure that's been said before by lots of pigeon people!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Is there a special transition type food for squeakers? I have put parakeet seed in with Fionas kaytee parrot safflower mix and the Winners cup pigeon mix to see if the smaller seeds are easier for the young ones to eat. Would they eat parakeet treat mix, the kind that comes in the plastic cups? Ok I don't mind if they are spoiled as long as they get enough to eat and Blue gets some peace.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster said:


> Am also not sure what to do if one or more if the babies is a male. If I can't find homes I could put a female in with Lucy and Tracy maybe but don't think Fiona and Blue would appreciate having another male around. And I have read that two males don't do well together. The babies are adorable but two local breeders have ads on Craigslist continuously so there isn't a market for birds and these are mixed pigeons. The club people only want racers. So I hope the babies are females and that I can rearrange living arrangements if I have to. The alternative would be to rehome Blue which would be very sad. Darn birds for being so sneaky and popping out two oops birds!


 I doubt that a female in with Lucy and Tracy will work either. They are a pair, and more than likely won't want another bird in there. It just doesn't work the same way in cages as it does in a loft. In a larger space you could have more, but in a cage there just isn't enough room for singles when you have pairs.
What would be the purpose of re-homing poor Blue? You still couldn't put a young male in with Fiona, as they would then pair up. Might as well re-home the baby.

I know you don't want to hear this, but this would be an excellent reason to turn the shed into a loft. Let them have room to move around in, and live more normally. I know you don't want to hear that, but it would solve everything, and would be easy to do. If I were closer, I'd help you.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster said:


> Is there a special transition type food for squeakers? I have put parakeet seed in with Fionas kaytee parrot safflower mix and the Winners cup pigeon mix to see if the smaller seeds are easier for the young ones to eat. Would they eat parakeet treat mix, the kind that comes in the plastic cups? Ok I don't mind if they are spoiled as long as they get enough to eat and Blue gets some peace.


Don't start out giving them tiny seeds. Give them pigeon mix. They can eat that, no reason why they can't. Many start on seeds the size of safflower, and I had a male baby that went right for the large peas right from the start. When you offer the tiny seeds, that's all they will want, and you will be sorry. That's what they put in pigeon candy. Bad idea. Not only will they forever be picky eaters, but there isn't enough nutrition in those seeds for them to grow healthy. Just give them the pigeon mix and they will be fine. You will cause yourself more problems by catering to them.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm keeping fingers crossed that the babies are girls and feel so sorry that you've ended up with all this worry. I've got two boys and they sleep in separate cages but they have a room to fly in all day and there is already a pecking order between them, towards his sister now too. I try not to intervene too much because of upsetting the ranks but it's hard when you see the others chased off when they haven't deserved it. Some people have boys that have paired but I think that's more of an aviary type setting. I can't wait to get them in a proper set up where they can interact more naturally and I hope the 'bully boy' will settle down a bit. Maybe that would work for you too but of corse we will both have the problem of possibly missing an egg or two which is obviously pretty disastrous, as you know only too well.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You have a beautiful loft there with most of the hard work done and you continue to keep them in cages. I feel sorry for your pigeons and do not give those babies "a chance in ----". Don't worry I will not post on your posting anymore because it is just too depressing for me to have to read whats happening when it does not need to be and I am beginning to think "something else is the problem" for you will just not listen or take good advice from people. Finish you loft and let the birdies survive with quality..Get them out of the cages.. Poor birdies....c.hert


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm sure cwebster has reasons for not making the shed into a loft but I have to agree that it's easier to clean up in my room from my birds than it is bending and stooping to clean their cages. Mine only sleep in individual cages at night and spend the majority of time in my room - not ideal but until I get the aviary it's the best I can offer and they seem pretty content to chill together and have some flight but they are protective over their cages and are right there if one decides to trespass, lol. They are so much fun when they're out and it's honestly so much easier to clean up and although I know you have health issues that prevent you from interacting like I can with mine I'm sure you'd enjoy the occasional moment or two just watching what antics they get up to. They are so interesting to watch - even from afar, even if you can't interact very much and their characters really come out. 











ETA - that's not really a meerkat in a suit in that cage in the background, I'm not that crazy - yet!


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