# Concerned owner of two 1 1/2 week old Ringneck Dove Hatchlings



## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

Somewhere between October 28-29 our Ringneck Dove couple Skittles (female) and Giggles (male) had two successfully hatched eggs.

We were pleasantly surprised how naturally good parents they are since this is their first time being parents. The two little ones were constantly fed and kept warm, so we avoided interfering as much as possible and only bothered them to clean the nest and ensure the babies were hydrated.

They are still taking great care of them at this point, but the babies' crops don't seem to ever be nearly as full as before. We're not sure if this is simply because they have doubled in size or if they aren't getting fed enough. Both babies are covered in pin-feathers but haven't quite broken yet to where they are fluffy.

They seem perfectly alert and energetic, both of them are opening both eyes and seem to be able to turn around on their own to face their parents for feeding, and crawl underneath them for warmth.

I guess my question is, is there a way to know for sure if they are getting enough to eat? The first week their crops would be bulging; perhaps to the point of them being overfed. Now their crops seem have something, but not even close to bulging. How is it supposed to look at this age?

We are cleaning the nest every few hours and there seems to be a healthy amount of droppings that are coming from the babies; if there are droppings does that mean they're eating enough?

I know the first week is the most crucial of a baby bird's life, but even if we may be over the supposed "hurdle" I just want to make sure the little ones have the best chance of growing to be healthy loving doves. Thanks.

- Brandon


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The droppings are the best indicator that the babies are eating. In the first week they are fed crop milk, later the parents regurgitate seeds into the babies crops.
Watch their droppings, if the're plenty the babies are getting fed 

reti


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

Reti is right.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

UPDATE:

They are fifteen days old now, and I did not know about splayed/sprattle legs until this morning when I tried looking up what age they should be able to walk. The bigger of the two was more or less doing the splits, the littler one with one leg in front, the other in back.

We applied the band-aid "fix" immediately. The one doing the splits seems to be sitting correctly with the band-aids holding his legs closer. The one we're concerned about is the littler one; with the band-aid applied his "back" leg is still facing outward towards his wing instead of forward (90 degrees). The little one's back leg seems to be his dominant leg though as he uses it to push and doesn't seem to move his forward leg much. We tried switching him to a sponge with holes but we couldn't get it to stay on.

My main question is, did we discover the splay/sprattle leg problem too late to correct it? And if not, does the little one's complication have a chance of not being correctable at all? Will and can either of them end up handicapped for life? Thanks again for all the help.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

It is not too late at 15 days old to fix slpayed legs.
Just be careful with the band aid. If too close or too loose it will maintain slight defect on the legs ( too much inwards or outwards) Make sure you check the wrap daily for it not to cut the blood circulation. Also as babies grow the distance between the legs gets wider, the wrap should be changed.
Make sure there is no slippery surface underneath them. I had a perfectly fine 3 weeks old squab, who landed bad on the kitchen tiles and couldn't walk. No slippery floors untill are about 2 months old and they develop strong muscles. 
Once they start drinking on their own you should put some Ca & d3 in the water.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

I managed to tighten the band-aids on both of them so they both now sit *mostly* correct with their feet underneath them.

Is it ok for them to lean a bit to the side with one leg slightly to the side from being unbalanced or do I need to find a means such as a small bowl to keep their feet directly beneath them at all times?

They have a flat-towel to walk on so they should have plenty of traction, but they are using their wings a lot to assist in turning and moving. Is this ok?

I have the band-aids tied around the ankles as low as possible so that they should be able to stand once they have the strength.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post pics of the babies that show their legs so that we can get a better idea?


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

This is two days ago before I was aware that their legs were not normal. Notice the little one on the right has his foot way back:










This is how they sit now with my second band-aid attempt. Little guy on the right still has his right foot sticking out a bit:










A closer look at little guy:










More images in the next post, apparently I can only post four at a time.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

More images, since I'm limited to four images per post.

Little guy again:










One more of little guy:










Now here's big guy:










Big guy again:


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

The little guy tape is a bit too wide. The feet should now go to any side. When they sit perfectly balanced with their feet underneath and toes/feet pointing forward, then you achived the good size warp. Also when you got the best wrap their toes should not curl.
It's a good idea to make towel donut like so their legs should not fall behind.( place the dove in the towel hole)
I hope they are still getting fed by the parents.

It's a long process, but it will give results with some care and attention. In a few week they should be fine. Please keep us updated with pics and let us now any concerns.


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

I hope that they will be ok.Keep us updated.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

Little guy's tape keeps coming off. I had to make a much thicker band-aid cut. Hopefully it's not too much, but it just won't stay on otherwise:










Notice here that he still tends to rotate his hips a bit and favor one side. He should be completely flat on his back in this picture:










I can try again to get a better wrap on both of them in a few hours; my wife is not awake at the moment to help me. These two can be a handful with only two hands!

I will try the towel-doughnut advice, thanks for the tip!

Also, their mother is extremely tame and loving. She does not mind us handling her babies, though not to say we are handling them more than necessary to test if she will abandon them or not. She definitely trusts us and cooperates though; the father is the same but does not show the same affection towards humans as their mother.

The babies are being very well fed from both of them, and can actually stand up tall with the bandages on when they are hungry. Hopefully this is a good sign.

Is there anything we can or should be doing to encourage the babies to walk or exercise to learn to use their legs correctly? Or should it be the opposite and they should be moving as little as possible until their legs further develop? And as always thanks for the replies!


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

The wrap you just made is perfect. Congratz.

You can handle the dove to put the warp on by yourself, by having a towel on your lap. Place gently the dove upside down ( between your legs - so there's balance and he/she will not fall sideway) and cover his body and head with the towel; only legs will be sticking out of towel ( make sure he can breath).

No need to encourage to walk. The less walk or exercise, the better. They cannot walk in the warp anyway. When they sit in the good made wrap, the less they will struggle. It needs a few days for the brain to understand that this is the proper way for legs posture.

They will try to stand up, which is fine as their muscle will develop correctly and from here on it will be , may be 2 weeks, and you can remove the wrap so they can try on their own to walk. If any other problems comes along as they grow with the wrap on, there are other kind of warps you could make to improve their legs. 

Keep an eye on toes for a few days..if they do not get to normal you can make shoes. But do not worry for that now.

You're doing a good job without your wife's help though.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Lots of times babies like that are put into a bowl with padding or a donut, as Dima has mentioned. In that way, their legs would be going straight down and just touching bottom. It helps if they aren't moving around. I wouldn't encourage them to walk at this point. Dima is really pretty good at taping, maybe she can share her pics with you.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What is their nest like? Do they have a lot of nesting material? And do the parents get enough calcium and vitamin D3? Odd that both babies would both be splayed like that.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> What is their nest like? Do they have a lot of nesting material? And do the parents get enough calcium and vitamin D3? Odd that both babies would both be splayed like that.


Good point Jay. 
I mentioned to give Ca & D3 in the water once the babies start drinking, but since their are still fed by the parents, it should give to the parents in the water and from their crop will go some into babies crop to get stronger bones.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, that's how they get it. There has to be a reason for both babies to be splayed.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

Day one:










The parents were moved to this cage for nesting. I have a five-foot-tall cage they were in before with other doves. I thought it would be better for them to have privacy for the babies.

Earlier this morning:










The father, Giggles, on the left, and their mother, Skittles, on right completely relaxed and indifferent of the camera 

The jug-nest we had got way too crowded so I took the cage-bottom out completely and laid a towel down. I thought this would be best as I've seen soda box bottoms and baskets used.

As far as calcium they have access to a cuttlebone but haven't used it much since the babies were born. I can try to chip off some pieces and mix it in with their seed bowl. I have not been adding vitamin D3 to their water so I will try to get that ASAP. Any advice where I can find some?

When I take the babies out I let them drink water from a spoon to make sure they're hydrated enough.

*EDIT:*

I'm having trouble finding a bowl and an appropriate sized towel to try and make a doughnut with and place each of the babies in. What I have right now is way too tall for them. I remember seeing a few pictures while searching on here but can't seem to find the threads again for reference. Should I be looking for something small like a sauce/ketchup bowl, or large like a cereal bowl? Thanks again.

*EDIT 2:*

Also, when I do find the right bowls and towels, will their parents still feed them like this? When should they be trying to eat/drink on their own?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They need to have a high calcium grit in a dish 24/7. Birds don't really bother much with cuttlebone, and need more than that. If they don't get outside for sunshine, (and a sunny window doesn't count, as the UV rays that they need do not pass through window glass or screens), and they do not get bird vitamins with vitamin D3 in them, then they can not utilize any calcium that they get. So they really have been getting neither. That could cause the splayed leg itself, but then there is the nest. It needs to have straw or some other nesting material in it so that the legs don't just splay outward like that. Something soft so the legs can go down, not out. And straw or something to be able to grab with their feet. Especially when the parents were sitting on them, which presses them down, and nowhere for the little legs to go but out. You can buy calcium for birds probably where you buy your seed and stuff like that. for now, I would grind up the cuttlebone and slightly oil the seed (fresh olive oil) and sprinkle it over that. The oil will make it stick to the seed. But you need to get some kind of calcium supplement, preferably one with vitamin D3 in it.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

Got the D3 vitamin supplement; unfortunately it has everything BUT calcium in it so I will have to continue to mix cuttlebone for the time being.

I'm still trying to figure out the bowl, and will have to wait till morning to get some nesting material.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If you are willing to order from the internet, Calcivet is a good vitamin D/Calcium syrup that goes in their water -- or there are a number of others available. Most of the pigeon houses sell vitamin D/Calcium syrup. 

I hope your little guys will be okay! They're very, very cute


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## scmona (Sep 6, 2012)

oh, they are very very very cute!


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

Was just on the way out the door to take my family out to a late lunch... and I had to stop by here to say...

They're both eating seeds on their own!!! 

Will continue to update~


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's great. Now you need to find the calcium supplement.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

It's amazing they are eating at 1.5 weeks. The drinking method from the teaspoon is good, i use to do it myself when i didn't have Ca & d3 for pigeons, i used the human Ca & d3 powder (mix one teaspoon in one cup of water and give to the babies with teaspoon in the evenings)


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## Lefty07 (Dec 30, 2009)

Are these babies being raised in a proper "nest", with nesting material for their feet to hold on to? If they are just being raised on the flat bottom of a cage, on a paper towel or flat cloth towel, that may be contributing to splayed legs (especially if they already have nutrition deficiencies). Doves and pigeons should have some sort of nest. I just use "Easter Baskets" for mine and give them clean hay (sold for Rabbits and Guinea Pigs) for nesting material.

Also, what are you feeding the parents? When I raise baby doves, the parents get fresh egg food daily (mashed hard-boiled egg mixed with some dry egg food and a little corn meal), to which I add powdered vitamins and other supplements. Even if you don't have the vitamins right now, try offering the parents some mashed hard-boiled egg - they will probably eat it immediately and then their babies will get the high protein benefits. Also, a calcium supplement in the water, 3 - 4 days a week, may help (Note: birds can overdose on liquid calcium supplements so they should not get it daily - once a week or less is fine for non-breeding birds). 

I also agree with the comments about high-calcium grit - doves need high-calcium grit in a separate bowl 24/7 (i.e. all the time, not just when breeding). You can add crushed oyster shell to this. Grit and Oyster Shell, for pet birds, should be available in any pet shop. You don't need to feed this to the babies - they will find it once they are walking around. If you have high-cal grit and/or crushed oyster shells available all the time, you don't need to worry so much about calcium supplements in the water (the liquid calcium supplements are important when there is a real calcium deficiency that you need to correct in a hurry).

I do the above and I've never had splayed legs or any other problems. Proper nutrition is really important for breeding birds and their babies, as is a proper "nest" with steep sides and natural nesting material for the babies to hold on to.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's not really the nest bowl that matters, as much as it is having enough nesting material under the babies. Even in a nest box with no bowl, they are fine, as long as there is a lot of nest materials in the nest. The vitamins, and calcium along with the vit. D3 is very important for the birds always.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

UPDATE - Day 21:

Thanks to everyone's help and advice, both Big Guy (still deciding on a name) and Little Guy, whom my wife has named Pimiento Taco (just Pimiento for short; don't ask, it's a geeky video game reference) have shown significant improvement in just six days!

Video:
http://youtu.be/HpI012rkhKo?hd=1
On the left is Pimiento, and Big Guy is on the right.

As you can see, both are able to stand, walk, and turn with the assistance of the band-aids. I will continue to monitor their movement and posture as the band-aids wear off, and continue to replace them until they no longer seem to need them.

Any further advice is always welcome, and thanks again for everything! It looks like with a little time, they're both going to grow up healthy and normal with no disabilities!

I'll post again as they continue to grow!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the video. The one in the front looks pretty good. The one in the back, can you bring the legs in just a bit more? His right leg still goes out a bit. It looks like maybe it turns out? You're doing a good job.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Here is a great base for the nest. It makes it so it is not slippery to keep splay leg down. Also it is great for keeping them warm. The pigeon just build on top of it. Also you can wash them.


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## Riku540 (Nov 4, 2010)

*UPDATE: Donut and Pimento @ 2 months*

Donut (previously "Big Guy"; left) and Pimento (previously "Little *GIRL*"; right) spending quality time with their mother (middle): http://youtu.be/Z3HAFUk2P5U

Donut has grown to be completely healthy with no sign of slayed legs. All behavior points to him being male.

Pimento's left foot is curled and though she struggles with it she has adapted to it. Even with bandages, attempting "shoes" and the like, we were unable to correct her legs and foot completely but the important thing is that she can stand, walk, and most of all fly.

She unfortunately struggles with perches so we will be getting her a flat-bottom cage. We have a feeling that Pimento could have suffered from underdevelopment due to the fact that she has always been significantly smaller than her brother since birth, and this could have complicated the splayed legs to where it couldn't be completely corrected.

We never actually witnessed either of them hatching so we also wonder if one of her parents assisted her during the hatch. I feel guilty, though my wife is happy in the sense that she feels good about taking special care of a "special" baby bird. She's never really been attached to my birds, but she completely adores Pimento.

Pimento hasn't shown any male behavior and the way Donut and her father act around her leads us to believe she is female.

Both of their parents are very tame, but Donut and Pimento are tame on a completely new level. Raising them from birth makes such a huge difference in affection. They preen us like crazy, and are never caged except at bedtime. In fact, my wife let them out once while I was sleeping and they both found me in bed to wake me up!

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for helping us, and we just wanted to let you know you helped make a difference in these two birds' lives. And I hope that this story/thread can help those who encounter the same problems in the future.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I'm very happy to read the wonderful update on the two little babies.
Thank you for doing an amazing job.

Reti


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

They look great.You did a wonderful job.


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