# What will I get???



## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

My project is to have homers with Ice Pigeon color (Barless & TS-White bar) ...

What will I get if I mate these 2 cocks to an (Ash red) or (blue bar) homer hen ??

Ice barless cock


Ice TS white bar cock



Ash red Hen


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't know what you will get but it will no longer be a racer.
Dave


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

he said homers, not racers. see this thread, its talked about here

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/ice-breeds-54188.html



george simon said:


> *Well when the show season is over I will be crossing an ice Italian owl to a blue bar racing homerThe young from this cross will be what is called by Joe QUINN intermediate ice, Then mate the F1 to F1 and you will get a Phenotype Ratio of 3 to 1, 3 ice 1 wild type. This is MODIFIED TO THE GENOTYPE 1:2:1 so you will have 1 ice , 2 intermediate ice and 1 wild type. The presence of a third recognlzable phenotype alters the phenotypic ratio,to become identical to the genotypic ratio 1:2;1. I have a few intermediates ICE ITALIAN that I will be mating in the next breeding season and I will get to see for myself. * GEORGE





Woodnative said:


> Both Rudolph and George-
> When doing a project like this, would you normally set up the initial cross with at least two different pairs of birds..........so that you can use unrelated birds for your F1 to F1 cross (to create your F2 generation). I assume you would not normally breed "brother to sister" of your F1s.......or maybe I am wrong and that doesn't cause as much problem (especially after an outcross) as most people think? Opinion?





george simon said:


> *hI Woodnative,Yes I would and in this case, I also would mate some of the F1 back to the homer parents.I would do this as i under stand it the F1 can pass the ICE GENE to their young if this is so that would speed upthings a bit I think. I have another project that I am going to work on. I am thinking of recreating one of the rare breeds. known as thje POSTER,if you have the book"ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PIGEON BREEDS" you can see a picture on page 471. This breed is a HOMER /OWL cross.* ..GEORGE


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

There have been many discussions about putting ice into homers on this forum and elsewhere on the internet.

You will be working with two traits here. The first is ice, which is a partial dominant, and requires a couple of [unknown] modifying factors to get a light ice color as seen in ice pigeons. The second factor is the toy stencil complex, which causes the white bars, and is a combination of three different factors, two of which are dominant and the third recessive. This gives at least 5 different genes that need to be transferred to the homer breed. Not an easy project at all, but not impossible either.

I have communicated with a number of people who have tried to breed ice homers, or who know of such projects through contacts. All of these people agree that ice is one of the most difficult factors to work with, and many have tried and given up. As such, Ice projects should only be taken on by those with a lot of time and patience. Hundreds of birds and 10 generations are a lot to take responsibility for.

All of this aside, I have seen some ice x ash-red F1 birds, and they are beautiful, even if they don't look like any specific breed. At the very least, breeding the ice white bar to the ash-red check will probably give some light reds bird with bronze patterning on the wings. If you do end up doing the cross, I'd love to see pictures of the outcome. F1's are often very unusual birds and a joy to own, since they are so unique.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Make sure to put them on dirty birds. Dirty is essential to a good ice coloration. The F1 kids will be partial expressions of ice and you'll probably see a bit of bronzing in the pattern.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

rudolph.est said:


> There have been many discussions about putting ice into homers on this forum and elsewhere on the internet.
> 
> You will be working with two traits here. The first is ice, which is a partial dominant, and requires a couple of [unknown] modifying factors to get a light ice color as seen in ice pigeons. The second factor is the toy stencil complex, which causes the white bars, and is a combination of three different factors, two of which are dominant and the third recessive. This gives at least 5 different genes that need to be transferred to the homer breed. Not an easy project at all, but not impossible either.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply , as you see the first cock is barless ... Does the barless in ice pegion carry toy stencil gene ???


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Albannai said:


> Thank you for your reply , as you see the first cock is barless ... Does the barless in ice pegion carry toy stencil gene ???


It is impossible to tell whether the barless does carry toy stencil, unless you know who the parents are and can sure they are TS. My guess would be that it is not TS.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

rudolph.est said:


> There have been many discussions about putting ice into homers on this forum and elsewhere on the internet.
> 
> . If you do end up doing the cross, I'd love to see pictures of the outcome. F1's are often very unusual birds and a joy to own, since they are so unique.


This is the first young I got from the TS Ice cock X blue check hen...


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Albannai said:


> This is the first young I got from the TS Ice cock X blue check hen...


As you can see, the toy stencil is definely punching out some colour on the pattern. You also probably won't need to breed too long to get the 'homer' look back. I have bred a rather good looking homer in my archangel bronze project in the second generation, with wattles and cere nice and pronounced as well as the 'cobbier' and larger body of the homer.

As we said earlier, the ice expression is complex. Look at how much darker your F1 is than its ice parent. A few more generations (F2 and then to homer and probably a few backcrosses to ice) will be required to get the colour significantly lighter.

Good luck. It will be an interesting project.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Cute little guy  The color will lighten up a bit after moulting but of course the best expression is in homozygous form.


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## Hawkmaster (May 2, 2013)

I know this was a couple of years ago but was wondering if you pursued this interesting project further please?


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