# Two baby feral pigeons !!!!!



## BHenderson

Hi all,
I am new here, and I was hoping to find some people from London as I also have a legal question I need to ask. But my other questions are about feral pigeons so they are the same the world over.

I have been taking an increasing interest in pigeons since I moved to my current address, where I have more exposure to the wild than I have had for the whole of my life.
I have been taking an interest in wildlife generally, but pigeons in particular, and I must admit I have fallen in love with these little critters !!!
I have a little flock that I feed regularly, and recently I have taken in several babies that were obviously unwell and unable to stay with the flock. I made them comfortable but most of them were too ill to survive more than a night. I have brought some 'Critical Care Formula' but I have not had a chance to use it yet.
Anyway, the last two babies that were huddled on my garden porch accepted a meal from me very enthusiastically, but huddled together as night fell and obviously were not going to join the flock. Amazingly I was able to pick them both up with very little fuss. I thought this was a bad sign at the time as I thought it must indicate that they were very weak, but 4 days later they are still with me and are looking more alert every day.
I have read a little of the section on caring for these babies, and I have realized that I need to prepare a bath for them. I have used a long mirror as a pathway to the bath and I have left a plastic box in the bath to help them climb out. I have not filled it too much. I am just going to leave it there as I have noticed they are very inquisitive and look around the house first thing in the morning. I leave the cage door ajar so they can get out if they want to, I realize this means there are more droppings for me to clean up but I don't mind.
The problems I am starting to have are that the pigeons are starting to squabble. I think they are bored, but what do you do to provide some entertainment for baby pigeons? Its funny, but its the one that appears to be the weaker that is doing the bullying, even though he just sits there most of the time fluffing himself into a ball of feathers(which is supposed to indicate that they don't feel well). Does anyone have a suggestion about what I could do to alleviate this?
I am trying to assess when is a good time to let them go. I do not want to keep them too long as they apparently become reliant on humans(although when they see other birds through the window they try to join them). They need to put on some weight and I do not want to release them too soon. does anyone have any suggestions regarding this?
Also they are being a bit picky about the food. I don't mind this but if I knew what it was they were looking for I would get it for them. They seem to be digging through the food pushing the rest out of the dish looking for something. Its very funny to watch. I thought it was the sunflower seeds, but they are in the pile left behind. There are some huskless sunflower seeds that they might be looking for, or is it the bit of oyster shell I am putting in the food? Anyone got any suggestions?

All advice gratefully received. I hope to look after more sick and wounded wildlife, especially pigeons, in the future so any useful advice would be great


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## Jay3

Not knowing how old they are, I'm wondering if they are just fledged and still learning how to eat. They may not really know how yet. You may have to hand feed them.If fluffed, they could be sick. You can use a heating pad in the cage, set only on LOW. Cover it with a small towel, and place the babies on the towel. If they fight a lot, you may need to keep them in separate cages. Letting them loose when you are not there is not a good idea really, as there are too many things they can get into and get hurt. They might even fly into a window glass trying to get out. Much better to let them out for a while and for exercise while you are there. If you picked them up that easily, I would wonder why. My guess is they may be sick. Can you post pictures of the birds, and of their latest droppings? That would help.


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## BHenderson

Their droppings had a bit of green fluid in it at first, but they look quite normal now. The birds are a lot stronger now. They do eat, but because I leave the food out all day when they are bored they pick through the food. That's why I mentioned about their apparent boredom, I don't know what to do to give them something to do. I put a couple of photos in my profile, but they are not very good. I will try and take some better ones tomorrow when we are back in daylight, I don't want to wake them up. Thank you for the advice.


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## Jay3

All pigeons pick through their food and pick out their favorite seeds. Do they drink on their own also?


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## BHenderson

Yes, although I made the mistake of assuming that one would copy the other. It was not until the second day that I dipped the weaker pigeons beak in the water when putting them to bed. He went straight for the water after and had obviously not had a drink for a while. They are both drinking fine now. I was thinking of adding a little 'Critical Care Formula' to their drinking water as I have read elsewhere that this can provide some extra help?


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## Jay3

Don't know what Critical Care Formula is.


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## Quazar

Jay3 said:


> Don't know what Critical Care Formula is.



http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php/vetark-critical-care-formula-ccf-150g-reptile-bird-p-32


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## Jay3

Thanks Quazar. What do you think about this stuff. I noticed it had warnings about it could be dangerous if the concentration was made to strong. That makes me uncomfortable with it. What do you think?


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## BHenderson

Thank you for pointing that out Quazar.
Does anyone think I am unnecessarily worried about the pigeons being bored?


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## Jay3

What do you think they do in the wild to entertain themselves?


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## BHenderson

LOL, I just felt guilty because they seem to have nothing to do but eat and peck at each other.


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## Jay3

That's what they enjoy doing. LOL.


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## BHenderson

OK point taken LOL. I will return with more questions later if you don't mind. Its time for me to sleep so I can be up to see if they take an interest in the bath. Thank you.


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## goga82

hahah cute thread .. some of my babies liked mirroes. they would lay infront, some would bathe every 2 hours, some would never even put their toe in the water.. some like to just lay around all day preen.. 
it all depends on personalities.. but as far as how pigeons have fun...they love to lay around..
i noticed with few i had they liked to sit in a pot where i planted cat grass.. once grass grew they made a bed in it..just a thought


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## BHenderson

Thanks that's good advice. I have some small mirrors I will put on the ground. Anyone have any Ideas how I can introduce them to the bath?


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## BHenderson

Well at the moment I don't have a pot big enough, and the bath can always be disinfected later. My budget is a little limited but I will have a look around later to see if I can find a suitable pot.

On another matter, I have brought some 'Critical Care Formula' and I was planning to buy one or two other things this week. Most needed is the anti-flea and mite powder(I have been getting some bites since they have been here!) but other than that can anyone suggest something useful I can get them(as long as its not too expensive). I have seen things like vitamin powder to go in their food, or perhaps these 10-in-1 treatment tablets to treat them for a range of diseases. Any Ideas?

Sorry to come over with so many questions, but I am new at this. One of the babies gives off little squeaking noises all the time. mainly when he is pecking the other pigeon, but sometime when he is sitting there on his own. Is this a call for some attention or something, does anyone know?

Thanks again for all the help.


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## spirit wings

pidgeon said:


> eat them if they won't eat their own food


yeah..I do not think this site is for you as it is a pro pigeon site not I like to eat pigeon site..so you may want to move on IMO..as far as I can tell from your profile you are not a pigeon advocate, but the opposite. Not going to judge you for what you eat..it is just not going to be talked about on this site per the rules.


ok..now back to the thread..sorry if it took a quick turn.


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## BHenderson

I did not see the first post, I just saw 'how about a pot' and assumed it was a genuine suggestion of an alternative bathing method.
As it happens I followed it up and found a large tray which I have filled with water and placed on a tarpaulin in the front room. They loved it and one of them got in almost straight away. They are both sleepy now, so I am going to leave it out for them in the morning when they will have more energy and more likely to enjoy it.


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## BHenderson

A strange thing. One of the babies keeps falling asleep standing in the clay dish I have put the seed in. Its supposed to be a dog bowl. Is he trying to turn it into a nest?


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## amyable

Hi and welcome,

I've just been catching up with your story. I wouldn't worry about them being bored, all the bahaviour you've mentioned seems quite natural. 
The latest query about the youngster sitting in the dish is also fine.
Can't give you an explanation as to why but I usually find most birds do like to sit on the edge of a bowl and sadly unless it's stable it usually ends up with all the seeds being spilt over the floor!

Keep us posted as to their antics and any questions you need answered we'll try to help.

Good luck

Janet


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## Quazar

If you have them in a cage, try placing an ordinary brick on the bottom of the cage.
They naturally like to perch on something raised & flat rather than just stand on the ground, but if theres nothing else they can stand on, they will stand on the edge of a bowl or dish.


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## Jay3

BHenderson said:


> Well at the moment I don't have a pot big enough, and the bath can always be disinfected later. My budget is a little limited but I will have a look around later to see if I can find a suitable pot.
> 
> On another matter, I have brought some 'Critical Care Formula' and I was planning to buy one or two other things this week. Most needed is the anti-flea and mite powder(I have been getting some bites since they have been here!) but other than that can anyone suggest something useful I can get them(as long as its not too expensive). I have seen things like vitamin powder to go in their food, or perhaps these 10-in-1 treatment tablets to treat them for a range of diseases. Any Ideas?
> 
> Sorry to come over with so many questions, but I am new at this. One of the babies gives off little squeaking noises all the time. mainly when he is pecking the other pigeon, but sometime when he is sitting there on his own. Is this a call for some attention or something, does anyone know?
> 
> Thanks again for all the help.



10 in 1 treatment tablets aren't good for much. Don't even bother. Not enough of any one med in them to be effective on anything. Save your money. Bird vitamins are good. They do need calcium and Vitamin D3. They would normally get the vitamin D3 from the suns rays, but if they are kept indoors, then of course they don't get it. They can't get it through a window either, as the rays don't pass well through the glass. Even a screen cuts out most of them. A good bird probiotic would be nice. Gives them good gut bacteria.


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## BHenderson

Thanks Jay3 and Quazar for the advice. I'm going to put an order in for some vitamin powder and anfi-mite and flea powder. I am also going to order some baby bird food in case I find any more babies. I have been pointed in the direction of some kitten feeding teets that are apparently perfect for pigeons.
I need to ask about when to consider releasing these birds. As much as I love watching them, and we are getting used to each other, and they do bring out my paternal instincts. But I could not deprive them of their freedom just to please myself. I can see that when they see the other pigeons outside they want to rejoin the flock. One is definitely stronger than the other and I must decide whether to allow one to go and keep the other one for a bit longer, or keep them together. I think they are from the same nest because they arrived together and huddled together at the begining(they peck each other a bit now and sleep separately)


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## Jay3

You can buy a mite and lice bird spray at pet stores. Keeping them together would be a better idea, as it is always better to release birds together or in groups, rather than alone. Their chances go up if they are in a group. You wouldn't want to release them separately.


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## BHenderson

One of the birds is more ill than I suspected. I saw both the birds had got some of my long hair around their feet and were falling over their own feet. I do try to get it all but it constantly falls out(my hair that is). 
Anyway I picked them up one at a time and wrapped them in a towel. their little hearts were beating very fast and I didn't like doing it, but I could not watch them tripping over any more. I got most off the first bird, but I can see that, although he is not tripping up any more, he is still biting at his foot so I think there is still a little thread of hair wrapped around his leg. I hope it does not interfere with the blood supply.
The second bird I was able to remove all the hair from its feet, but in the process I have noticed the bird is very thin. The bone at the front of its chest is poking out. You can almost feel it through the skin. I have looked at their droppings and the thin bird still has mild diarrhea. It looks brown, I cannot see much white in it.
The thin bird is eating as much as the other bird, but it is either not putting on weight, or it was much thinner to stat with. I think it is still losing weight, because I'm sure it was not this thin when I first got it. It also squabbles with the other bird, so I don't think it can be feeling that sick. It fights its corner, it is not being bullied, if anything I think it is the bully. It is still sitting in the fluffed up state most of the time and does not seem to move as much as the healthy bird. but even now while I am typing this it is eating again. I will give them both names soon, but up until now I have been worried about their survival.
Can anyone give some advice?

Thank you.


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## spirit wings

can you post a picture of these birds and their fresh droppings.. sounds like they need meds sooner than later.


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## BHenderson

I need to get some fresh batteries for the camera as I need to use the flash, so I will be back in a bit.


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## Jay3

You have got to get ALL the hair off of their feet.If you don't, the circulation will be cut off and they can lose toes or feet. It's really important. That has got to be done ASAP.


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## BHenderson

OK Here are some pictures of the pigeon that is not well - I have tried to adjust both of these so that they are more visible - 

And a picture of the droppings, this is the only one to come out. The flash reflected on the tarpaulin. This area is right by the water bowl I have put out for them to bath. On the other side is some droppings that have got mixed with water, its possible there is some water in these droppings also - 

And finally a picture of the pigeon that is not so ill. This is the one with the hair round its leg. Its also the one that has more energy to get away from me. I will have another go at catching him in a minute. I have seen pigeons with their circulation cut off before and I dont want that to happen. When I was getting the hair off earlier I could see no signs that there was a circulation problem, but he is still standing on one leg so there must still be hair around the leg.


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## BHenderson

Sorry, And the well pigeon with the hair round its leg.


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## BHenderson

You cannot really see it in the picture of the droppings, but it looks like there are little white hairs in the fluid. Is that some kind of worm?

I have turned the heating up a little as it must be hard for them to keep warm if they are that thin. I do have a hot water bottle for them but they are in a warm room constantly now so I think the hot water bottle might be overkill.


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## Jay3

These little ones should be treated for canker and bacteria. Fish Zole would be a good choice for the canker, as you may be able to find it at a tropical fish store. You would have to make sure that the only thing in it is Metronidazole.
You can buy Parastop , which would treat a wide range of bacteria. And here is a link to where to get it. 
http://www.pigeonsproducts.com/Pige...op 50 tablets by Belgica de Weerd for pigeons

Treating for coccidiosis and later worming would probably be a good idea too.


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## BHenderson

I believe I may have some human grade Metronidazole, from an old prescription. would that be usable. I have some money that I was going to use for medicine, but it is not much, so the more I save the more I can buy.
By the way the weak one appears to have some flat fly's crawling around in its feathers, can they harm it?

I have just found out that in the UK you can only get Metronidazole from a vet. I can order it from the USA or apparently there are 'safe' forms that I can get.... I am looking into it.

I have ordered flagyl 250mg from a racing pigeon company and Parastop from a company in spain. I've just worked out that both the companies are Merca-Systems. I wish I had known I could have saved about £10 in postage charges.

The coccidiosis and worming will have to wait a bit longer. The meds may take longer than 12 days to get to me, does anyone have any tips on keeping the pigeons alive until the meds arrive?

Thank you Jay3 and everyone else for you advice. I have some booklets and books coming soon but I would have been lost without the advice of those who have gone down this route before. I believe these meds will be useful in the future as well, as nearly all the birds you find ill in London seem to have problems with their droppings, and reading around it seems canker is becoming a big problem as well.

It does make me sad that the well pigeon keeps flying at the door trying to join his free friends. I feel like I want to release him. I think it would be better to release them together, and although he does not understand it I think he must be treated along with his friend as they have been in close contact. I do wish he would not keep making me feel so guilty though.


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## Jay3

I can understand how you are feeling about the bird wanting to join his friends, but you are right, in that they would both need treatment. Canker is very common, as when they get down from another illness, the trichomonads go up, and cause the bird to come down with a case of canker. I could send you some Metronidazole, but it would take too long to get to you. You wouldn't want to worm them til later on anyway. Actually it is better to wait til they are 4 months old if you can, unless worms are thought to be a problem. So I would wait till they are stronger and gained weight. Maybe a member from the UK could help you out here. Someone probably has some Metronidazole or something other for canker and worming.


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## BHenderson

I would like to ask a few last questions regarding these two pigeons - 

The stronger one that I thought had hair around its leg. I cannot see any hair around its leg, although I could do with a more powerful light as a single strand of hair is hard to see against a pigeons leg. He is using the leg a lot more, but still pulls it up at night. Is it possible I have hurt it slightly while trying to remove the hair?

One and possibly both the pigeons still have brown runny droppings. They are active for a while when they first wake up and both of them tend to stand near the window and watch the other birds, which makes me feel terrible for denying them their freedom. I hope it is for the greater good. As the day rolls on both tend to find somewhere to perch and pretty much stay there through the day, occasionally going for food(of which they throw more about than eat !!! lol). At night if I turn the heating up a little they become more active. I am worried about them long term because it may take more than a week for the medicine to arrive. What can I do to help them survive until the medicine gets here? They are both on the thin side, one more than the other. Should I keep it a bit warmer than normal to help them stay warm? Does it matter that I leave the lights on? Is there any food I can give them that might help them.

Any suggestions on what I can do to help them survive until the medicine arrives?

Thanks

Oh a last matter, I think I am going to have to feed the pigeons tablets for the Flagyl and Parastop. Can anyone direct me to a video of instructions of some kind for how to do this?


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## BHenderson

Its so cute. I put the big livingroom light on and a few minutes later is saw one of the pigeons come out of the cage and slowly walk over the otherside of the room and go under the table which has a tablecloth across is and blocks the light out lol. Do you think he objects to the light being on lol.

I have switched the big light off and put the hall light on so there is just a little light coming in. They are so like people in some ways. The other one is perched on the tall chair and seems ok.


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## Quazar

they can be clever little things and have their own ways of communicating things to us lol.
One of my rescues would sit and grunt at night till i turned main light off & tv sound down a bit. Then at about 6.30 every morning, would peep and peep till I opened the curtains so it could see out 

Dont worry about it lifting its leg and tucking it in. All pigeons do that when they perch, It also shows they are comfortable where they are with their surroundings, so they are relaxed.
If you approach them when they sit like that, they normally lower the leg slowly, but it is poised ready to push down & take off quickly from any danger they sense.


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## Jay3

Quazar is right in that pigeons do sit like that, but if any doubt at all about getting all the hair off, I'd check it with a magnifying glass, just to make sure. As far as giving pills, it's easy. Here is a video of someone giving a pigeon a pea, and you would do the same with a pill. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow
I find it easier though, to hold the bird on my lap and against my stomach. Gives you more control. Open his beak and put in the pill, then push it toward the back of his throat and release his beak. If it is back far enough, he will swallow it. They need to be kept warm. Especially if one is fluffed up. He is doing that to try and stay warm. A box or cage with a heating pad set on low, and a towel covering the pad is the perfect thing, but if you don't have one, then don't know what else you could use. When raising babies, I used a reptile heating element that you can get around here at pet shops. And a thermometer to show how warm it was where they were. It throws heat but no light. I use them in the loft too, and aim them near the perches.


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## PigeonQueen

hello, what is the legal question you said you wanted to ask in an earlier post?


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## amyable

Hi Jayne,

there's another thread further down this section which is about the problem with his council. hope you can find it and help with some suggestions.

Thanks 

Janet


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## BHenderson

They are so cute pigeons, as I'm sure you all know. They are getting closer to me than I expected. The other pigeons that I have looked after have always been too ill to interact with.
I must think up names for them soon, although because I intend to let them live a natural life I don't want to get too close to them.
The weaker pigeon jumped up on my bed today, and walked up by me a bit and layed down next to me and proceeded to watch me for the next hour. It was so sweet.

I am going to miss this, as it looks like I will have to give up not only feeding the pigeons but looking after them as well. Isn't it a shame that these people are able to enforce their twisted opinions on us. Oh well.


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## BHenderson

I could do with some further advice. I decided to release the stronger pigeon this morning. Even though some said that it would be good to keep them together, they did not seem to like each other and the only time they interacted was if they squabbled over food, even though there are several dishes of food out. The strong one kept bashing itself up against the garden door trying to get out every morning, so I decided to let him go. He is out with the flock that hang around my house, I can see him. I have had to start to reduce the food to the pigeons outside because of the problems with the council. I will try to keep an eye on it and see if it starts to show signs of illness again.

The weaker one is the one I am worried about. He has shown no interest in leaving and huddles to the radiators when they come on. I have noticed its droppings remain brown but have become very water. He still eats though. I have not been able to get any human metronidazole and will have to wait for the flagyl to arrive. The only antibiotic I have is penicillin-v(the good stuff), can I use this at all? I have a hot water bottle for the pigeons but I dont know if this will make him too hot? Any advice that can be offered on how I can help this little fellow last until the medication arrives? I would hate lose him after all this time.

Please help if you can. All advice appreciated. Thank you.


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## Dobato

I read through your thread and the advice I have would be start this little guy on a broad spectrum antibiotic, as well as the Metronidazole. The Pen-V you have has a narrow range of activity and would not be effective against most of the ills that come to mind that could cause this bird to act the way you describe and have his droppings look the way they do.

If you can I would order in a medicine available in the UK called Columbovet, it is comprised of Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Dimetridazole. It's a combo med, but looks to be a good one. A combo med gets its name from the infections they will treat, not necessarily that it has a lot of meds in small amounts in it. This one will treat for Coccidiosis, E. Coli, Salmonella, Canker, and Hexamitiasis, so a 5-In-1, but may do the trick for this little guy. You could speak to the people in the link below and see if they can overnight it to you (there may be places closer to you, you will just have to do a bit of searching on Google).

http://www.mercasystems.com/pigeons...0-gr-5-in-1-antibiotic-for-racing-pigeon.html

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Hi Dobato, your name has been mentioned to me. I am glad you have replied.
Unfortunately, I have spent all the spare money I have(and a bit more) on the two meds I have already ordered(Flagyl and Parastop). I will see if I can persuade someone in my family to buy it for me and I will pay them later.
I have read the details on this medicine and I like the idea of it, a wide spectrum medicine, and I can keep it for future pigeons if needed. I will do my best to get it but I may have to manage on what I have already, at least for the next 2 weeks.
Funnily enough, the medicines I have already brought are coming from Mercasystems, and they have given the impression the meds will take more than 12 days to arrive.

Thanks for the info, this medicine is next on my list. I'm glad you pointed it out to me.

Brian.

P.s. the little fellow has changed his behavior a little since I let the other one go. He keeps coming close and sitting near me. He has even come on to the bed and sat next to me, he's just done it again. I keep talking to him, telling him how beautiful he is. He really is a wonderful little chap !!!!!!


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## Dobato

Brian, I was unaware that you had ordered an antibiotic as well, the Parastop. I had a look and it treats for Salmonella and E. Coli, but I also tried to investigate just what the active ingredient(s) is in this medicine and could find nothing at all disclosing this. The Columbovet with treat for both of these infections, but also coccidiosis which would be good to do, looking at his dropping. Perhaps we can get you a few Appertex pills to cover for coccidiosis. Yes, I do suppose his misses his mate, but hopefully will be out with him before too long.

Do you have an idea when the meds will get to you, as it would be good to get this little guy on some meds pretty soon.

Karyn


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## amyable

I've sent Brian a PM with regards to getting the meds asap. Just waiting for his reply.
Also I can send some Appertex tomorrow if he needs some immediately.

Janet


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## Dobato

amyable said:


> I've sent Brian a PM with regards to getting the meds asap. Just waiting for his reply.
> Also I can send some Appertex tomorrow if he needs some immediately.
> 
> Janet


Janet, you truly are a dear . I am a bit concerned for this little one and it would be good if we could get some meds going, at least until Brian's arrive. I think Baytril, Metronidazole and Appertex should cover most of what may have this guy not doing his best. Brian, could please take Janet up on her very kind offer for help, as I think sooner would be better for this little guy.

Karyn


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## Charis

The ingredients in Parastop are Chloramphenicol and Furaltadone.


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## BHenderson

OK I have taken Janet up on her offer. I'm sorry but I had to go to hospital myself earlier and then went to see some of my family. It took me a while to get back. I dont think we have lost any time though as it would have been too late to send them yesterday anyway.

I don't know if these medicines have different means of administration. I have seen the video on administering pills and I am comfortable doing that, although I hate it when you can feel their heart beating so fast because they are not sure what you are doing. He is getting used to me handling him though.
The other meds may have other means of administration and I will return for advice if I am unsure what to do.

I am really grateful to you all for your help and your attempts to do your best for my little friend. I hope never to be in a situation where I have no meds in the future. Thank you very much for your help.

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

Meds are on the way! Let us know when they arrive and we'll sort out how to administer and the right dosage.

Good luck

Janet


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## BHenderson

Thank you, I am very grateful.

He is still looking OK at the moment, he is sitting at the window watching the other birds, but he is still fluffed up so I don't think he feels himself(I got no idea if it a he or she by the way)


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## Dobato

We'll help you with instructions on giving the meds, glad he is hanging in there. Thanks again Janet .

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I've not had a pigeon close to me for this long before so the rest of you may already know this, but they seem to like you talking to them. They seem to like the soothing tones of kind words and he comes closer and closer. He won't let me stroke him yet and maybe that is for the best if he is to be released, I would feel terrible if he trusted the wrong person because of me. It seems to me that pigeons and people are very compatible, if only people would give them the chance!
His droppings don't look so lose today, and he is still eating. He likes to sit on the radiator and does not move even if it is hot, I hope he does not burn himself.

I thank you all for your help. Because of this experience I will be able to help many more pigeons in the future. One day one of them will be too ill to live in the wild, and will be able to stay with me


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> He likes to sit on the radiator and does not move even if it is hot, I hope he does not burn himself.


Perhaps you can place something on the radiator for him to rest on top of like a folded towel, you may even have an old brick about the place you could use, they really like resting on bricks. Glad he continues to self-maintain and his droppings sound a bit better.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Hi Karyn,
I am beginning to realise that a good place to perch is an issue for pigeons. He has spent a good 15 mins moving around trying to find a good place to perch for the night. I will try and find a couple of bricks when I go out later.


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## BHenderson

Hi All,
I appear to have a mild upset stomach. I must have picked it up clearing up the droppings of the sick pigeon(he always finds a way to leave some droppings where I have left no covering lol). Obviously the antiseptic soap I am using is not good enough. I don't think it is serious, I have had much worse upset stomachs. Has anyone had experience catching bird infections lol.

He spends a lot of time trying to stay on the radiator, he is not strong enough to pull/push himself up onto the radiator properly, something I think a healthy bird would have no trouble doing. He is obviously feeling the cold, even though I am keeping it quite warm in the room.

Hopefully the meds will arrive tommorow.


----------



## amyable

Hi Brian,

sorry you're feeling under the weather yourself. It's not necessarily connected to the pigeon. I've been up from the early hours this morning with my daughter and husband being unwell, they seem to have picked up some bug and don't have any contact with my pigeons. In all honesty you can catch far more from humans and if anything the pigeons are in more danger from us.:eek
It maybe just a coincidence but just use normal hygiene precautions by washing hands after handling etc. I do hope you feel better soon.

I sent the meds first class so I'd hoped they be with today. Blooming Post Office. 
Has your post been for the day now?

Janet


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## BHenderson

Wonderful .... Were in business. I did not check the box, I was expecting a knock for the delivery of a parcel lol.
I have also received the Flagyl from mercasystems as well, but they are big 250mg tablets. I thought they were going be special bird tablets but obviously any human medication would have done. I dont know how you would go about administering them to a pigeon, I assume they only need a fraction of a tablet?

Your liquid flagyl (and a syringe, thank you) are far more useful I think. Both liquids are intact and the tablets.

This pleases me so much Janet, Thank you very much for you efforts. Its wonderful to feel he has a chance now.

I must pop out for a few minutes to pick up my own medicine. I will be back shortly. I just need to get some advice about how much and how to give the medicine. If anyone can comment I will read it as soon as I get back.


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## Dobato

Brian, glad to hear the meds have come . You mention two liquids, one was Metronidazole, was the other Baytril? 

Can you mention the strength of the meds Janet sent, are there any small pills marked Appertex?

Karyn


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## amyable

Hi Karyn,

I decanted to meds into small bottles so Brian won't have the info sorry.

I sent Baytril 2.5% oral solution.
Flagyl 200mg/5ml oral suspension.
4 Appertex tablets
A 1ml syringe.

Brian you need to give the Flagyl med a good shake before using as it separates.

I'll leave Karyn to help with dosage Brian. 

Janet


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## Dobato

Thanks Janet for the into, you covered everything .

Brian, I think it's important that we get some meds into him as soon as you get back. To be accurate in dosing we need to get a weight on him, do you, your friends, family or neighbors have a small kitchen scale you can use?

I had a look at him and for the time being I am going to guess 200g for him to get him started, once we get an exact weight for him we can adjust the dosage. I want you to take one of the 250 pills and divide it into 4 (62.5mg) then divide one of there 4 pieces in half again (31.25) and "pop" it down him like in this clip below. This dosing will be a above the suggested dosing of 100mg/kg q24h, well within other higher suggested dosing levels, plus we need to get his system loaded. I them want you to take 2.5% Baytril and get the 1cc syringe and load the syringe to the 0.20cc mark (this is the second line on the syringe, and for reference will be about 4 drops, and be 5mg). Give this to him one drop at a time to the middle of his mouth and let him tongue it down. These doses should do him fine for the next 24 hours, hopefully by then we will have a weight for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Five to Six hours later I want you to cut one of the Appertex pills in half and "pop" that to the back of his throat like you did the Metronidazole.

If he spends a lot of time on the rad, try and arrange a water dish right there for him, and food as well, he needs to stay well hydrated.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I'm surprised, I would have thought the liquid flagyl was better and easier to measure and feed.
Anyway, I have found a cheap set of food scales that go up to 1000g. I will give him those doses first, as you say, to load him up.

I have not done this before so I may need a bit of time to do this. I am watching my email account for more messages if you want to say anything else. Otherwise, I will post when I have administered the doses.


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## BHenderson

That went better than I expected. He panicked at first, thinking I was going to tip him upside down to cut hair off his legs again. But I was able to open his mouth very gently and drop the bit of pill down the back of his throat. He didn't seem to spit it out so I gave him the Baytril. I wasn't able to get the technique of dripping it into his mouth so I opened his mouth and put it in in three different go's.
He was much calmer than I expected and took it ok. Soon after he went over to his food and had a bit(to take the taste way ? lol) I have not seen him drink yet but I am trying to keep an eye on him. Should I consider trying to administer some water if I do not see him drink soon?
Anyway, I am glad I did not have to force him in any way. Unfortunately I forgot to weigh him. I will weigh him shortly but I want to give him a chance to get over what has just happened.
So in six hours I need to give him Half of one of the Appertex pills.

So far so good.
Thank you Karyn. Give me half an hour and I will get the weight of the little fellow.


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## Dobato

Brian, I suggested part of the pill right now because to get 20-30mg of the Metronidazole liquid into him would have meant you giving him 0.50-.70cc of the fluid and because you are new at this, there was less risk for the bird by you "popping" a piece of pill, than giving the liquid, but if your pills did not come we would have used the liquid . Best, for now, just to keep fluids right at hand for him (in a few place and food too) and let him manage fluids on his own, if he is eating this means he should be OK with drinking as well, but do keep an eye that he is taking sips of fluids from time to time.

Glad things went well, and will wait to hear a correct weight for him. So right now warmth, fluids, food and meds and let's see how things go.

In the morning if you could post up a photo of the droppings he made over the night, this would be good.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

OK Karyn your guess was very close. He weighed 250g-260g including the cloth I used to try to keep him still. The cloth weighs 40g so his approx weight is about 210g-220g. You were almost spot on.

I don't know how quick it works, but all of a sudden he's going round investigating things. I haven't seen him do that since they first arrived almost 2 weeks ago.

Ok just to let you know I have seen the above and understand about the flagyl. I knew there must have been a reason, and in the end it was a good idea as I was able to give the pill easily.
I will take a photo of the dropping from overnight in the morning and post them up. I cannot say what they will be on because he only sometimes goes in his cage at night, he is allowed to pick his own place(lots to clearing up later lol, but I don't mind - I think their worth the trouble)

Thank you again for your help.


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> OK Karyn your guess was very close. He weighed 250g-260g including the cloth I used to try to keep him still. The cloth weighs 40g so his approx weight is about 210g-220g. You were almost spot on.
> 
> I don't know how quick it works, but all of a sudden he's going round investigating things. I haven't seen him do that since they first arrived almost 2 weeks ago.


Thanks Brian for the weight, I feel better about the dosing now. So, same thing tomorrow, at roughly the same time, but no more Appertex right now, let's see how he gets on and consider later if he needs re-dosed with the Appertex.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Just a last couple of notes for tonight. I am about to administer the appertex half a tablet. he is obviously feeling better though as he is still moving about and exploring and looking for places to perch. By now he would normally have perched up for the night and would be by the radiator trying to stay warm, but he seems full of energy. He doesn't know what to do with himself. He keeps walking up to me and running away, how cute lol.
Anyway, unless I get a message in the next few minutes I will administer the appertex and post photo's of his droppings in the morning.

I'm really pleased to see him feeling better. I think even he is a bit surprised by how he feels. Thanks everyone.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

I think you'd better take some of those meds as well. 

Glad you've got it all sussed out for now, and hope you're feeling better soon. Looks like he's going to be giving you the run around if he continues to perk up like that.

Look forward to your updates.

Janet


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## BHenderson

Hi all,

He was full of energy last night and it took him some time to settle, but this morning he was fluffed up again and sitting still. He is eating a little and he had a good drink just before I caught him for the medication.
I thought his droppings were starting to dry out but the second one was watery again, as you will see.
I have given him the 1/8th of flagyl tablet same as yesterday and .2ml of baytril same as yesterday. Let me know if I should give him the half tablet appertex this evening.


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## BHenderson

Hi all,

I have to ask this question, even though some of you may think it is daft.

My little friend was running across the floor and trying to get in the cage where there are droppings and padding that I have put in there for the droppings. The cage door is open for him but he has to get round it to get in. Like I say he was running and just before he managed to get in the cage he 'dropped' his 'droppings'. Remember he has very lose droppings and cannot control his bowels well. Is it possible this little fellow was running to the place where he thought he was supposed to go? do pigeons do that? I have never heard of a house trained pigeon, but perhaps some of you can tell me different.

Thanks you.


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## Dobato

Brian, I am glad to hear he perked up a bit a while after getting his first round of meds, if you gave 1/2 an Appertex last night, then none to day, I wouldn't mind seeing how he gets on with just the Baytril and Metronidazole for a bit. The dropping while not great, to me, are a big improvement over an earlier one you had posted and shows an OK solid content and moisture, so this is good.

The are inquisitive little creatures and if he has been in the cage before, then he may just see it as one of his "spots" that is safe to go to .

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Just to let you know Karyn, the Parastop has just arrived.

I don't know why they were giving such long delivery times in their messages, neither medication took more than 5 days to arrive.

On another matter to everyone, I really am angry at the council for stopping me feeding my little flock. I have slowly reduced the amount I was putting out, and some of them have moved on, but there is a core of birds that cannot work out why I have stopped feeding them. Unfortunately I have to stand my ground, so that I can help them later when they need the help more, but I am really angry at the council and who ever spoke to them for forcing me to do this to a bird that doesn't do anyone any harm.


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> Just to let you know Karyn, the Parastop has just arrived.


Good to know, I think we should stay with the current meds and see how things go for now. Is there any information on the box/package that gives concentrations of the combo of meds inside? I guess if they give you the worse case for delivery, and then they come early, it's better than the other way around .

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Karyn, there is nothing printed on the box. The wording on the box indicates to look inside but I did not find a leaflet, I don't know if they removed it.

I done a little research, and apparently many pigeon fanciers say that no one is sure what is in Parastop. A couple of well informed guys said it is identical to 'Altabactine, Fura based drug'. I assume 'Fura' stands for Furaltadone. As Charis said, most agree that the main ingredients are Chloramphenicol and Furaltadone, but there are some other things in it as well.

The dosage on the box says 2*Daily, 1 Tablet during 5-8 days (their wording).


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## BHenderson

Karyn, in view of what you told me earlier, I thought I better post these two photos of my little friends latest droppings. its the one closest to the edge. You cant see it very well but it is very watery, in fact it looks as if it is floating in fluid.
I thought as this might be indicating that he is getting worse I better let you know.

Thanks,
Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, again, while not ideal, for an ill bird, they are in the range I would expect. While I like to closely monitor their droppings, for solids content and to see if they are getting enough hydration, I try not to read too much into droppings while a bird is ill and on meds too soon, so I have no real red flags going off looking at them, plus, seeing a wet looking dropping when a bird is on meds shows me he is keeping his system flushed. The thing we need to monitor over the next few days, outside of still keeping an eye on the droppings, is his demeanor, we don't want to see his energy levels decrease or sitting fluffed up and looking to have no interest, and is eating and drinking OK.

Thanks for tracking down the further info on the Parastop. I am familiar with both of the antibiotics in this medicine. The Furaltadone is not well absorbed by the body, so works locally in the GI tract against infections like salmonella and E. Coli and it also has activity against coccidia, the Chloramphenicol is absorbed well systemically and works against a good range of infectious organisms such as salmonella and E. Coli, they kind of work together for a two pronged attack.

Karyn


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

I have to say as Karyn did that the poops aren't so bad. Some days some of my resident birds will suddenly drop ones like that or even worse and they're not on meds. I find with them that they can vary on a daily basis depending on if they're laying eggs, moulting or other such distruptions to their wellbeing.

Glad he's still ticking along ok.
I'm watching the updates and am grateful that Karyn is keeping a close eye on things. 

You're doing a great job.

With regards to the council matter, I feel bad for the birds if they seem puzzled as to why you're not feeding. It's probably for the best, at least for a while as their fate could be even worse if you carried on and then more drastic measures were instigated that would put their lives in danger.
Hopefully in a while they'll wander off a little way and find another source of food.
I occasionally feed a local flock that live in a derelict building behind some shops. I've successfully campained to let them carry on living there until the owners find a developer, then it's due to be demolished. I used to feed them a few times a week and then got into trouble with the owners as they were trying to get rid of rats and they didn't want seeds around. I found it hard but did back off and haven't seen them for a few weeks now. I went yesterday and threw them a bit of hemp as a treat and they looked fine so I think they're finding food ok.
I always descreetly drop some seeds when I go to Tescos shopping as there are a few pigeons around there. Today they followed me to where I'd parked so I think they know me now...oops, better watch my step again!
Where's there's a will there's a way they say. 

Look out for yourself, then you'll be in a position to help the ones that are in need like this little one if you spot them in future.

Janet


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## BHenderson

Right, I have good news this morning (I hope it is anyway)
He is definitely looking better, he is less fluffed up and he looks more 'normal'. Not a ball of fluff.
Also I have noticed that he has started to use little flights to get around, whereas he was walking almost everywhere. and there were places he could not get to. The down side of this is morning poop hunt is having to cover a wide area, I'm finding poops in some funny places lol.
His poop is much less watery, forming a pile instead of a puddle. I have also seen the first significant white bit rather than it all being brown. I can put up a photo if you wish (were getting quite a collection of poop photos lol).
He had enough energy to give me the run around this morning, I normally have no trouble catching him, but he had the energy to run all round the house this morning. I will have to get a different coloured cloth, he knows when I pick up the white one its medicine time.

On other matters, he still has some flat flies on him. When I pick him up I have noticed I have tiny little worms just a couple of millimeters long on my arm after, brown. I normally have a jumper on when I pick up pigeons so I have not seen these worms before, does anyone know what they are? On the 23rd I will possibly look at some delousing powders if anyone would like to make a suggestion?


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## Dobato

Brian, you are correct this is good news indeed . All of it points in the direction we want to see him going, starting to feel to fly, droppings firming up and urates (the white part) now being produced. I want you today to reduce the amount of the Metronidazole he was getting, as we were being a bit aggressive in dosing because in one of the earlier photos you posted of him there was what looked to be a spot without feathering on his crop area, which can be indicative of canker in the crop. I want to to take the 1/8th of a Metronidazole pill you are giving him and get a razor and shave off 1/3 of this, this will bring the dose from about 30mg, down to about 20mg, and the dose will still be once a day, the Baytril dose will not change for now.

Instead of a delousing powder for him, my preference would that you get a caged bird lice & mite spray based on the active ingredient pyrethrins, here is a link below for an example. What you are most likely seeing are pigeon feather lice and they do not feed on blood or flesh, but on feather dust and bits of feathers themselves.

http://www.discountedpetproducts.net/MITE_AND_LICE_SPRAY_8OZ-UKP95346.html

Good job,

Karyn


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## BHenderson

OK great, it makes me really happy to see him getting better. I always thought the featherless mark on his front was caused by him being in that same position for so long. His beak moves into that slot exactly when he was fluffed up. He is holding his head up higher now so hopefully it will get a chance to heal.

The spay looks great, will it deal with the flat fly as well?

The lower dose will have to start tomorrow, I have started doing a little write up after giving him his medicine. Perhaps I should do a write up then give him his medicine in case you want to change the dose?

Thank you Karyn for your help.


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## Dobato

The lower dose for the Metronidazole tomorrow will be fine. The spray I linked should be able to deal with all his external pests. When you spray him, cut the end of an old sock, or use a small cloth to cover his face area and spray him all over, making sure you spray under his wings, as this is a favorite spot for parasites to inhabit. The spray should be available at almost any store that has bird supplies, for small birds like Budgies/Finches/Canaries, see if you can't manage to pick it up as soon as you can. This spray also comes in an aerosol can, but try and get the pump-spray bottle if you can as linked, but the aerosol can will work as well, just make sure it's pyrethrins based.

I appreciate the thanks, but the real thanks should go to Janet who got the meds he needed to you in a very timely way, without hesitation.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Thank you Karyn for reminding me, I have thanked Janet privately and we have been talking about the possibility of swapping meds between us. But I would also like to thank Janet publicly as well. Without Janet's help I still would not have any Baytril or Appertex.

Thank you Janet. I'm sure my little friend thanks you as well


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## amyable

Hi there,

I've been out for most of the afternoon and have been itching to get back on here to see how things are going. It takes over your life Brian, beware! 
I'm so pleased that he's showing a positive change.

It's very reassuring to find like minded folks so that I don't feel like the freak that some people I know think I am for loving these birds. It's a pleasure to be able to help and it was very nice to find your messages.
I in turn would have to thank a good friend who without her prompt help sending me meds when I'm in need, I wouldn't have been able to pass this help on. I also had some help from another member recently with a specific med I couldn't get here in the UK. This is what makes this forum special.

Janet


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## Crazy bird lady

I had a moment the other day with a rescue squeaker and a flat fly burrowed in his feathers. I filled up the laundry sink with warm water and submerged baby up to his neck for a few minutes. The fly drowned and floated out. I'm keeping an eye on him for larvae. A pyrethrin spray should kill any insect/parasite activity though.
Good luck with your baby


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## BHenderson

Thank you Crazy Bird Lady. Its a good idea and I will bear it in mind, but this little one is a bit of a fighter and it will make a hell of a mess. I have left some water out for him and I hope that he will take a bath when he feels well enough. I will have the spray soon and that will take care of the other creepies as well.


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> Thank you Crazy Bird Lady. Its a good idea and I will bear it in mind, but this little one is a bit of a fighter and it will make a hell of a mess. I have left some water out for him and I hope that he will take a bath when he feels well enough. I will have the spray soon and that will take care of the other creepies as well.


Brian, while a suggestion worth considering if a bird were feeling better, I am not too sure it would be best to submerge a bird just recovering into water, even warm, as the warmth only last so long when they come out, and then you have to set about getting them dry, or they start to chill, all of this quite stressful on them. Might be best to get the lice & mite spray and let him bathe on his own later, when he feels to do so.

Brian, you can also, until you get the spray, just do physical removal, just sit the little guy in a towel in your lap and, get some cottons balls, and wipe off any pests you see. Any deep into thickly, feathered areas can be dabbed with a bit of alcohol (not around his face or bum area) for now.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I'm sorry I'm a bit late today, I have had a terrible headache and I have tried to sleep it off. I didnt realise how late it was.
I am about to give our little friend his daily dose. He has been eating loads while I've been asleep, he has almost emptied the bowl. A bowl that has hardly been topped up since he got here! I am going to have real trouble catching him today, he has started avoiding me because he does not like being given the medicine. I am as gentle as I can be, but I guess no one like to take their medicine lol.


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## BHenderson

Hi all,
Just a few notes to finish the day. I have given the lower dose of flagyl and the same baytril. His heart beats very fast when I pick him up, they dont die of fright do they? He definitely does not like taking the medicine. I think its just that he does not like being picked up, but it could be the taste of the medicine. I'm keeping the little money I have to buy food for the little'n. I brought some budgie food to mix with the rest as I was told that small birds obviously prefer smaller seed. Also it is fortified with calcium. I put some oyster shell in the food but he does not seem to eat it, its all at the bottom. The budgie food also has iodine. His appetite is much improved and during the day he has polished of the best part of a bowl. I examined him a bit and tried to flick of the flat flies, but they are now flying round the room and if they have any survival instinct will return to the bird. I will get the spay as soon as I can (next weekend) in the meantime I will try to get rid of them. Also I noticed what looks like a hard lump of droppings round his bottom, but I wasn't sure so I have not tried to break it off. The bird is preening much more and I hope will take a bath soon, there is a bowl of shallow water always available when he feels ready.

I have gone for dinner at my parents round the corner and will be back shortly if anyone requires a reply. Thank you all.


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## Dobato

Brian, while not out of the woods yet, things continue to sound more positive. Pigeons are not like us, even their resting heart rate is over 100 beats per minute and when excited or under exertion in the many hundreds, so don't worry.

Here is a link about from a fews days ago I was involved in talking about small seeds, like for a Budgie, with another forum member. For the moment you can use smaller seeds, but we want to try and get him more a substantial mix. Don't mix in any grit into their food, you place it next in a separate dish next to their food and water and they'll take what they feel they need. Also, the small grit for Budgies is not really suitable for them, they need the larger grit, that is about the size of grape seeds, can also be called red grit or just plain pigeon grit.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f23/feral-pigeon-from-a-cave-55347-3.html

The droppings stuck around his bottom should be cleaned off, but don't try and break it off, best to sit him in a shallow bowl of warm water, and soak it first then break it apart with your finder tips, be careful just to wet his bottom and not soak him all over.

Karyn


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

Good update again. I'm so jealous about the eating part as mypresent house mate just can't get the hang of it!

Those flies are a pain as they are so hard to kill once off the bird. They seem to fly differently to house flies and if I ever manage to catch one I always drop them in boiling water just to make sure they've really gone!
The spray will be your best bet. As you said, they'll pop back on the bird as soon as they can.

Don't worry too much about him not liking being given his meds, they never do but soon get over it once it's done. None of my residents let me pick them up given the chance, I think as they've all needed meds or treatment at some time, they're very wary of my hands. Even my little friend who's sitting on my shoulder ATM and very friendly will struggle if I hold him in my hands!

I'm sorry you're still feeling under the weather, hope you feel better soon. 

Janet


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## BHenderson

Hi all,
Janet, you current house mate cannot get the hang of eating ?   
Or have I misunderstood somehow?

You must admit Janet the sad bit about having to daily catch my little friend and give him something he does not want is that it means he is becoming wary of me. He was starting to get so close to me and now he becomes nervous when I walk close to him. I hope he gets over it. On the other hand, I must try to think what is best for him, and if he is to go back into the wild, perhaps it is better that he does not get to close to me.
I would love to have one as friendly as yours Janet, one that would think nothing of hopping on my shoulder to see what I am doing. How cute 

Anyway, as well as the budgie seed, I have mixed a bag of seed for bird tables plus I have chopped up some peanuts(I dont think he can eat them whole yet) and I have brought a bag of huskless sunflower seed. I thought all these things were good at the time but I see they need improvement. He also needs some vitamins after being depleted like he has. I intend to visit a good local pet shop I know next weekend and I will get a pigeon mix and some of the things suggested in the article Karyn. I have also put a separate dish with the oyster shell in. It is the larger oyster shell although I dont think its as large as you say is preferable, again I will see if I can get some next weekend.

Oh by the way, he does not seem to be hugging the radiators anymore, so I have turned the heating down. It is still on a bit so it does not get cold in the early morning, but I am no longer sacrificing my comfort for the birds lol.


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## Dobato

Brian, Janet means she has a young bird that had, and still has to a point, some difficulties with an unknown illness that he is recovering from, so his progress has been a bit slow learning some basic things, like self-feeding , but in time we expect he will get there.

That he does not feel he needs heat like he did, is another good sign , and best to chop up peanuts, IMO, even when they are quite themselves, as it makes it easier to digests for them (plus peanuts will add weight back pretty quickly as well , but they should be raw, not cooked)

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Is there a thread on Janet's bird, I would love to read it?


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## amyable

BHenderson said:


> Is there a thread on Janet's bird, I would love to read it?


Brian, It's under sick and injured section. Titled Baby Possibly Attacked.

I wrote an update last night and promptly lost the post so I'll try and do that again later.
It's a long read.....I tend to ramble on a bit. 

Janet


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## BHenderson

Thanks Janet I'll have a read of that when I got some time to sit down.

Its funny, I put out some bird food mix in a bowl just now, and my little friend has been digging down to the bottom, throwing lots of seed over the side, looking for the little dark brown seeds in the mix! Does anyone know what they are? Ill get him some lol.

ooh I've just noticed he does go to the dish with the oyster shell when he wants some. I've never seen them do that before, I thought you mixed it with their food.


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## amyable

BHenderson said:


> Its funny, I put out some bird food mix in a bowl just now, and my little friend has been digging down to the bottom, throwing lots of seed over the side, looking for the little dark brown seeds in the mix! Does anyone know what they are? Ill get him some lol.
> 
> ooh I've just noticed he does go to the dish with the oyster shell when he wants some. I've never seen them do that before, I thought you mixed it with their food.


Oh getting fussy now is he! Sounds like he's starting to enjoy the goodlife if he can afford to pick and choose his seeds.
He's obviously not feeling starving now otherwise he'd be stuffing down anything he could get in his beak.
Maybe if you can find what it is he likes the most, you could just give those after he's had his meds, then he might associate meds with treats. 
(I think I've been reading too many dog training manuals!).

Janet


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## BHenderson

Yes its a good idea Janet, I want to find something to make this process more palatable to the little chap. He has also started to eat a suet block with seed in that I have put down. I noticed today that he is still very thin, that chest bone is still poking through white. I suppose I am expecting to much for him to have put on significant weight yet. His dropping are now tube like with a tiny amount of fluid and the white bit (Urates?).

He had me in histerics this afternoon, I only picked up the disk with the medicine and the syringe in and he was gone lol. It took me 5 mins to find where he had gone, and another 5 to corner him. He finally accepted I was going to get him but tried to fly off when I went to capture him. I am as gentle as I can be, but if I even talk in his direction he's on his toes lol. He really does not like being given his medicine. I dont know how Janet manages to give her bird medicine and still be close enough to it to have it sit on her shoulder, my little friend wont let me get anywhere near him now, not without a fight.
I hope it will not go on for much longer, and then maybe I can rebuild my relationship with him.

Anyway, medicine given, and now he knows its over he's looking a bit happier and is exploring again lol.


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## Dobato

Well, this little guy has come a long way in the last few days, from fluffed up on the radiator, to making decent droppings, now picking through his seeds and hiding from his meds, sounds good .

Also, if you have some barley, split peas or small lentils around the house, you can mix these in with the small seed mix you are using to add larger food items to it for him.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Hi All,

Janet, I appreciated your message in the other thread today. I will indeed keep an eye on the birds that are reluctant to leave my roof. I am worried they are starving themselves just as the cold weather is coming. I feel special obligation to these pigeons and I will take them in if any of them show signs of weakness. The local green and river front are not far from my house, I hope to guide them down to these points and I should be able to try and feed them from there.

My little friend has had his meds. I wanted to tell you that he has started taking flights across the room. finding the two furthest points and flying between them. He is also doing lots of stretching. I feel like I should re-arrange things every now and again to give him some variation to explore.

I tried to approach him more gently and slowly today to catch him for his medicine. He seems to understand, I think it is my approach that might be frightening him. If I talk to him gently and approach him with the cloth on show so he knows what I am leading up to, he seems to stay put and allow me to catch him. This is the approach I am going to use from now on.

He has also taken to dipping in the water bath, but only up to the top of his legs. I have put a sort of step in there and this is the bit he uses, but he does not venture into the deeper end. He does not seem so distressed about staying with me either. The other bird kept banging himself into the garden door and even flying into it. He obviously wanted to leave. But this fellow just sits by the garden door and watches the birds and squirrels and does not seem in any rush to leave. In fact if I open the garden door he seems to puff up and hide away, I think he likes the warm house lol.

Its just as well he does not want to leave yet as he needs to be fattened up, he is very bony still and I have to be gentle with him picking him up in case I crush his little body. I don't know how long it will take to fatten him up?

Anyway, all is well so far.

Thank you all.
Brian.

P.s. one last thing. He is grooming the front of his chest where that mark is. When I pick him up the feathery down in that area feels very stiff. I don't know if this indicates anything? I think the condition of his coat will improve when I get him some Mite spray and some vitamins.


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## BHenderson

Hi All,

I am having a problem locating a website in the UK that has all three of the following products :-

Pyrethrins based spray for the lice and flat fly's on the pigeon.
Cheapish vitamin and mineral solution for the pigeon.
Pigeon grit or something similar (not in 25kg sacks lol)

If anyone more familiar with the UK market can point me in the direction of a shop that has all three, then I can save money on delivery charges, which are sometimes more than the cost of the product.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## amyable

i Brian,

Just had a look on Northern Parrots site where I get the baby rearing formula. They seem to have all those things. Not sure what prices you've seen elsewhere but they don't seem that expensive. WOrth a look.

Janet


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## BHenderson

Hi Janet,
I will have another look at Northern Parrot, I think they are probably the best. I was having trouble with one of the things, the insecticide spray. The only one I could find is:-

http://www.24parrot.com/Beaphar-Bird-Insecticidal-Spray--150ml-P564214/

Which has Permethrin and not Pyrethrin. Permethrin is an artificial form of Pyrethrin and I am not sure how safe it is. I suppose for the convenience of ordering at one store and for cheapness it will be ok.

Thanks for your help.


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## Dobato

Brian, the spray you linked will be fine. A number of people use Permectrin II concentrate (Permethrin) to make a spray or a dip (submerging a whole bird into treated water) to deal with external parasites. As you mentioned, the Permethrin is the synthetic form of pyrethrins and is OK to use on your little guy.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/707-709.html

Karyn


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

I'm glad Karyn checked that spray out and said it was ok as I wanted to get some myself so that's useful to know.

I read your post last night and went to reply but lost the post for some reason. I think your idea of trying to get your friends to relocate to the green gradually is a good one. That sounds like a nice location for them as well.

I think now you're getting used to giving the meds and as you say, taking a slightly more relaxed approach, then your friend will feels less stressed. Don't be fooled by the fact my youngster sits on my shoulder, he struggles like mad when I feed him and hates being held. For some reason he's found my shoulder and feels safe there as he's away from those dreadful hands!! 
Have you thought of name for 'him' yet or are you reluctant to give him one in case he leaves?
I was wondering if the area at the front you mentioned was either side of his keel. It's just that when they're thin it does seem very hard and boney.
If you're worried can you post a picture some time so we can see. I'm sure he's ok but it may put your mind at ease.

Hope you're feeling a bit better about your outdoor friends.

Janet


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## BHenderson

Hi All,

That was so funny, I dont think I will do that again, I think I will switch back to last thing at night. My little friend has too much energy to get away from me early in the morning. It was so funny, I couldn't stop myself laughing hysterically, he kept giving me that funny look when I was pleading with him lol.
Its funny, he will let me go up to him and correct things or put padding down for him to sit or perch in his place, but he knows the instant I am after him for medicine. It must be something in my body language lol.

Anyway, I have thought about giving him a name, it would be nice to know for sure if he is a he or a she. Also I am pretty sure that when given the chance he will leave, he still occasionally tries to get out the garden door. I will give him a name as soon as one comes to me. I'm getting used to his little ways, their so cute. I'm sure you all know what I mean.

I would have liked to have supported my local pet shop this weekend, but I know it is more expensive to buy down there and its going to be another tight fortnight. So I am going to buy the three things from Northern Parrot. I am hoping to be in a better situation next time and can think about adding to my medicine collection.

I am having some problems with my computer, and if I can get it together later I am going to reload this machine. hopefully I will be back on later.

Brian.

P.s. If you go further up this thread, the original photos of the two birds are still there. The first two photos are the bird that is with me now. You can see on his chest there is a pink mark where he constantly had his beak buried in his fluffed up feathers. That area has now gone stiff. He seems to know there is something wrong and constantly grooms it. I'm hoping the lice spray will help condition his feathers, plus the vitamins.


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## BHenderson

My little friend flew across the room straight into the garden door window. I dont like it when he does that. He does not do it all the time, but seems to try at least once a day. Is this normal behavior. I think he is bored, he is in this room with me every day and not much changes. I talk to him but he does not want to come too close so I cannot help entertain him..
If he wanted to go, I would gladly let him, but he is still so thin and I am worried he would not survive. I dont know what I could do to stop him bashing himself against the window?


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## Quazar

BHenderson said:


> ...If you go further up this thread, the original photos of the two birds are still there. The first two photos are the bird that is with me now. You can see on his chest there is a pink mark where he constantly had his beak buried in his fluffed up feathers. That area has now gone stiff. He seems to know there is something wrong and constantly grooms it. I'm hoping the lice spray will help condition his feathers, plus the vitamins.


The feathers in that area will come in properly in time. Ive had a few rescues like that, which I presumed was caused by a slight dribble of excess formula from the beak after feeding, hardening on the feathers and stopping the "sheath" from flaking away in normal fashion. Wiping beak and area after feeding helps a bit but still leaves a small patch.



BHenderson said:


> My little friend flew across the room straight into the garden door window. I dont like it when he does that. He does not do it all the time, but seems to try at least once a day. Is this normal behavior. I think he is bored, he is in this room with me every day and not much changes. I talk to him but he does not want to come too close so I cannot help entertain him..
> If he wanted to go, I would gladly let him, but he is still so thin and I am worried he would not survive. I dont know what I could do to stop him bashing himself against the window?


If you put a fine net curtain across the glass, ideally a couple of inches off the glass, he can still see out, but it would cushion any impact if he should try again, although the fact that they can actually see the curtain normally deters them.

If you do decide to let him go, When the time comes, no matter how eager he is to get out, he will have to go through a "soft release" process to acclimatise him to other birds behaviours & foraging etc or he will not survive for long.
He has had no parents to watch & teach him how to do this & would not have a clue how to avoid predators etc.


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## BHenderson

Ah something new I need to learn, I know there is a thread round here somewhere on soft releasing. I have also had my eye on one of those flying harnesses. There a bit expensive but are a good compromise between being shut in and complete freedom.

I think I got an old net curtain round here somewhere, Thanks Quazar for the suggestion.


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## BHenderson

I got one other little mystery to solve. As soon as I put some fresh seed in the bowl my little friend is over their digging through it. One of those seeds he really loves. The two red seed in the mix are red dari and red millet. Does anyone know if pigeons particularly like one of these seeds. I keep getting a glimpse of red in his beak and I would love to get him some of whatever it is he loves so much?


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## BHenderson

If anyone would like to comment on the 3 products I plan to buy tonight, I would appreciate any suggestions. Especially if you think you know of something better:-

Easy Bird Complete Pet Supplement
http://www.24parrot.com/Easy-Bird-Complete-Pet-Supplement-P6250A/

I like this one as it has minerals in it as well, plus some herbs. I hope the vitamin D in the formula includes D3, as it does not say this in the details. There are a number of these products and someone may have a better one in mind?

Beaphar Mineral Grit - 250g
http://www.24parrot.com/Beaphar-Mineral-Grit--250g-P564210/

I am not sure about this one. I may go to the local pet shop and see if I can find a coarser grit. What do you think?

Beaphar Bird Insecticidal Spray - 150ml
http://www.24parrot.com/Beaphar-Bird-Insecticidal-Spray--150ml-P564214/

And this is the spray we talked about earlier.

All will be ordered tonight, and I hope to have enough left over to get some better food for the pigeon !!!


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## Dobato

Brian, you might be better with the vitamins below, as the other you linked is meant to be mixed into food, but not suggested for addition to water and you can do both with the one below, plus it a bit cheaper:

http://www.24parrot.com/Bogena-Bird-Vitamins--20ml-P564201/

The grit, as mentioned before, is for Budgie and is not really suitable for pigeons, you need to order a grit made for pigeons, here's a link:

http://www.murrayandmills.co.uk/catalog/erol.html (in the search box in the top right corner type in "grit")

The Lice & Mite spray is good.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I'm having a look at the murryandmills site, I might switch my whole order there as they seem cheaper. 
The only question I would ask about the vitamins is do the minerals not matter? I picked one that has both as I would for myself. Especially calcium for a young bird?


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> I'm having a look at the murryandmills site, I might switch my whole order there as they seem cheaper.
> The only question I would ask about the vitamins is do the minerals not matter? I picked one that has both as I would for myself. Especially calcium for a young bird?


The grit will contain a range of minerals and you can always order a bottle of something like Calcivet for a boost of calcium and D3.

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?category=ALL&no=723&searchpath=8322650

Karyn


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## BHenderson

oooh I like the look of that grit, thank you Karyn.

I will have a look at both these sites and pick one to send my order, I need to weigh up cost and availability of the things I need.
The order will go in early in the morning as soon as I have the money.

Thank you.

P.s. I just realised Jedds is American, so I will look for these products in murryandmills.


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> oooh I like the look of that grit, thank you Karyn.
> 
> I will have a look at both these sites and pick one to send my order, I need to weigh up cost and availability of the things I need.
> The order will go in early in the morning as soon as I have the money.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> P.s. I just realised Jedds is American, so I will look for these products in murryandmills.


Brian, the Kilpatrick's grit from Jedd's is the same grit as from the UK site I linked before, just more information on it for you .

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Hi all,
Everything has been ordered and should arrive monday. I am getting better at giving my little friend his medicine. He seems to understand better what I am trying to do, and is almost allowing me to catch him, and seems to feel safe once we embark on the procedure of giving the medicine.
I am exceptionally tired, I had to walk a long way today to do all the little jobs and to get all the bits and pieces, like the proper pigeon feed. I will write up again tomorrow.


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## BHenderson

Hi All,

I'm afraid I have been sleeping rather a lot. I have a long term problem that I have to take medication for, this on top of my upset stomach and the long walk I went on the other day seems to have tired me out.
Anyway, I got to say my respect for pigeons is growing all the time. My little friend seems to understand and accept the daily medication round, if I attempt to explain to him what I am doing. I dont mean I try to talk to him, but I show him that I am preparing the medicine. He knows the bowl I use to keep the medicine in and he can see when I am filling up the syringe. I then pick up the rag I use to wrap his wings in while I am giving him the medicine and I approach him. I do this with my hands in a open gesture and I walk toward him slowly, I dont try to catch him. Three times he has just let me pick him up!!!! He gets a bit worried once he has let me pick him up, it must take some bottle to let a huge giant pick you up, never being sure what he will do, you got to respect that.
He takes the medicine quickly, he knows the routine now, and that is the only time he makes a fuss, when he wants to get away after. What a clever bird.
Also my little flock outside. I cannot feed them outside the house now, but when I go out there they all balance on the bar of the gate and look like a bunch of school children excited to see me, its so cute. I walk further down the path slowly moving toward the green that I want to move them to, and sure enough they follow knowing that I am moving the place that I am feeding them. I'm really pleased at this and I am going to feed them as much as I can.
I think I know the person who has been causing me the trouble by ringing the council, not by being told, but because this guy cannot hide his feelings of guilt. This is the old gentleman who lives in the adjacent flat. I showed this guy a lot of friendship when I first moved in and tried to help him in various ways. It would not surprise me if this guy is jealous of the attention I give to the birds.

Karyn, I guess you will tell me when I can stop giving the little fellow his meds. He is looking better and more energetic every day. In the morning he has started flying round the room. He finds high perches as launch points and flys between one high point and another. He is doing this quite a lot now, whereas it was only 2 or 3 times when he first started doing this. I wish I could let him out so he could go and practice, but I know to release him now would mean his almost certain death. Nonetheless he gives off the demeanour of a happy bird. He seems to like the new pigeon mix I have brought him. I have also brought some split green peas and he has peanuts and sometimes some bird table seed when I have some, so I think he has a varied diet. If anyone has any suggestions of other things I could buy to spice up his diet I would be grateful. He is still very thin, he must have been right on the edge when I found him, but his demeanour has changed completely.
The vitamins and mite spray and grit are due to arrive on monday, so hopefully they will help his recovery further. In the meantime I have put some simple oyster shell out until his grit arrives.

On another point, I had another late stayer left behind by the flock last night. When I put some food out for him he squeaked like a baby and looked like a baby. I think he was hungry, and I wanted to bring him in for a few days. He would have been some company for my little friend. I could not catch him, I tried to throw a towel over him, but he was too fast. He seemed to disappear after so maybe he wasn't that ill. If anyone has some tips on how to catch ill pigeons I'm all ears.

I will speak to you soon Janet, I have one of two things I want to suggest and see what you think. I will send you a private message soon.

Hope all is well with people, thanks for all the help,
Brian.


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## Dobato

Brain, because this little guy was quite ill, I think we should keep him on the meds for 12 days, so until this Tuesday. The rest sounds good, quite the little flier now , and I am glad he likes his new food mix, make sure you do cut the peanuts up into small pieces for him. I think all you have been through has been quite trying on you and I hope that you as well start to feel better before too long.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I do believe my little friend likes Red Dari, despite all the food I buy him, he still digs through the food as if he is looking for something and then walks off when he does not find any new red dari. I'm pretty sure it is the red dari he's after as there is none left in the food he has picked through. I wonder where I could buy some on the high street, I can't send off just for a small bag or dari?

He's become very active, and wants to go out desperately, he spends long periods of time staring out the window or flying round the room. If I could get him to put on just a little more weight I would feel better about releasing him soon, or at least opening the garden door to give him the choice. Anyone got any advice about when I should consider releasing him?


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> I do believe my little friend likes Red Dari, despite all the food I buy him, he still digs through the food as if he is looking for something and then walks off when he does not find any new red dari. I'm pretty sure it is the red dari he's after as there is none left in the food he has picked through. I wonder where I could buy some on the high street, I can't send off just for a small bag or dari?
> 
> He's become very active, and wants to go out desperately, he spends long periods of time staring out the window or flying round the room. If I could get him to put on just a little more weight I would feel better about releasing him soon, or at least opening the garden door to give him the choice. Anyone got any advice about when I should consider releasing him?


Brian, that he is now very active is good to hear. I think a part of the marks he has to hit, before being released, is a good body mass. This means, IMO he should be around 325-350g before he should be considered for release. It's important that you build him up enough so that he has enough body reserves to fall back on while he figures things out on how to survive out there.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I'm sorry to say this, but we may have to consider letting him go quicker than anticipated. He is so desperate to go out and I dont know what to do. He likes my company and often comes over and sits next to me on some perch, but he also sees the pigeons outside and wants to be with them. I have opened up some window space for him to see out and he has also found ways to get to the windows, I dont really want to cover these up again as he is only doing what is natural. He is trying to fly through the windows until he is worn out then he has a sleep and then he starts again. At least while it is daylight. It probably does not help that there are lots of pigeons flying down to check if I have left food out. They also wait local for me to come out and walk down to the green to feed them. The pigeons are often perched on the window just the other side of where my little friend is.

He has had his last dose of metronidazole and baytril. I have put the vitamin water out for him and he has had several drinks of it. He eats several times a day, but I would not say he eats a lot compared to what I see a pigeon outside put away when I go to feed them, but he has food continuously on tap. I have yet to spray him with the permethrin spray, but I will do it soon. I hope that will improve his coat somewhat. I would like to keep him in for a bit, but I am worried that he is so desperate to go out I may be doing more harm than good.


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## Quazar

BHenderson said:


> I'm sorry to say this, but we may have to consider letting him go quicker than anticipated. He is so desperate to go out and I dont know what to do. He likes my company and often comes over and sits next to me on some perch, but he also sees the pigeons outside and wants to be with them. I have opened up some window space for him to see out and he has also found ways to get to the windows, I dont really want to cover these up again as he is only doing what is natural. He is trying to fly through the windows until he is worn out then he has a sleep and then he starts again. At least while it is daylight. It probably does not help that there are lots of pigeons flying down to check if I have left food out. They also wait local for me to come out and walk down to the green to feed them. The pigeons are often perched on the window just the other side of where my little friend is.
> 
> He has had his last dose of metronidazole and baytril. I have put the vitamin water out for him and he has had several drinks of it. He eats several times a day, but I would not say he eats a lot compared to what I see a pigeon outside put away when I go to feed them, but he has food continuously on tap. I have yet to spray him with the permethrin spray, but I will do it soon. I hope that will improve his coat somewhat. I would like to keep him in for a bit, but I am worried that he is so desperate to go out I may be doing more harm than good.


Brian, if you let him go early, before he has been through the soft release regime, you definately will be doing more harm than good as he does not have skills that would normally be taught by his parents that would enable him to survive in the outside world.
I know its difficult when watching him do that, but that will also help towards a successful release.
You are correct, they dont seem eat as much when they have food on tap all day, which is why as both you and karyn have already said, he really needs to get his weight up so he has some reserve


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## BHenderson

OK Quazar I take your point. I sort of know I can't really let him go this early. I will look up the soft release section and see what I need to know. I just keep thinking to myself, if he is so desperate to return to the flock, maybe he is stronger than I think and maybe letting nature take its course is the better thing. I don't mean letting him die, but I mean maybe we don't always know whats best.
In this situation though, I think you are right and I must resist my urge to free him. I will be sad when he goes, it has been so lovely watching him get better.


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## Quazar

Brian, one of the things you are going to have to think about is WHERE you are going to release him. One thing you will need is a small cage, big enough for him to flap his wings in. (perhaps you know someone you could borrow one from for a couple of weeks)
Obviously with your situation with the council & neighbours you wont be able to release him from your garden and it will involve transporting him in the cage, back and forward several times to the release area you do choose.


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## BHenderson

I can borrow my parents cat carrier which I have used before for pigeons. I do not think I have to be so careful with the council that I could not release the bird in my garden, In terms of a slow release, I was thinking of opening my garden door and allow him to come and go as he pleases. I think, because his food is out, it is quite likely the other pigeons will come in like they used to and help themselves. This may work in his favour in that it will encourage him to come back and get some food until he is more able to support himself.
It is a bit risky doing it this way though, as if he flies off he may not find his way back.


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> I can borrow my parents cat carrier which I have used before for pigeons. I do not think I have to be so careful with the council that I could not release the bird in my garden, In terms of a slow release, I was thinking of opening my garden door and allow him to come and go as he pleases. I think, because his food is out, it is quite likely the other pigeons will come in like they used to and help themselves. This may work in his favour in that it will encourage him to come back and get some food until he is more able to support himself.
> It is a bit risky doing it this way though, as if he flies off he may not find his way back.


Brian, if this is your plan, to release him into you garden, then he needs to spend as much times as possible observing it, you can do this by having him in his cage looking out onto the garden and by taking him out in a carrier/cage to also spend hours a day there. I don't think it wise to just let him go there without making a strong effort to "home" him to this location so he can find your support if needed, as best you can, without full free access to fly away. Also, as mentioned, he needs to pack on the weight and be flying very strongly as well, before chancing giving him uncaged access to your garden.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

OK Karyn, I have moderated my opinion a bit. He has calmed down a bit from this morning as well. I might have got a bit brash because I was finding it hard to watch him trying so hard to join his friends.
I have been given advice by you and Quazar and I have changed my mind a bit. I am going to do what you suggest and either take his cage outside or find a travel cage that he can spend some time in. I could them bring him back in as night falls or just take him out for a couple of hours.
His treatment is finished now, unless you want me to continue? So I'm hoping his appetite might improve and he will put on weight faster. He is flying quite a bit as I said, he often lands right next to me. I might try and get him to fly to my hand. Lets wait and see what happens.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice, I would have made some silly mistakes without it.

Brian.


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## Dobato

This little guy's meds treatment is finished, but you have to keep a close eye on him over the next week to 10 days to make sure you do not see any signs of him feeling unwell again, as this may mean that we may have to start another course of meds.

The one thing I was not clear on was if he is to spend time in the garden it should be supervised by you so that no cats or other predators can bother him while of there, even in a cage they can knock it about and reach through the bars.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

My little friend had his mad hour and a half this morning flying round the house(leaving droppings everywhere lol) but has settled into some sunbathing on the window ledge. At least he is getting some sun, although I have been told it does not do them much good through the window. The pigeons that I fed at the front of the house used to sunbathe whilst waiting for me, so I know this is behaviour that shows he is comfortable, so that is good to know.
I don't know why, but I have a strong feeling my 'he' is a 'she'. I wish it was easier to tell.


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## Dobato

Sounds like s/he is making the journey back from illness very nicely. The one other thing I think you should do is provide this little guy with additional food types he may find foraging. Not sure what people in your area toss for the pigeons, but things like small pieces of bread, pieces of a muffin, cooked rice and so on would be good to give him so he can get familiar with these as food items. I know your plans are to support him, but best he knows what things, other than seeds, he can eat if he goes astray.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Thats a good idea about putting out food he may see outside Karyn, I've started to do that.

The most important thing I will be concentrating on will be obtaining a decent cage to allow my little friend to acclimatise to the outside. I will ask around and see if I can borrow one. I know my parents have a cat carrier that we use to get the cat to the vet, but I do not think it is good enough as there is not much space to look outside.

Also, I don't think I will encourage too much closeness between me and my little friend, I don't want him to think all humans are his friend, as I see evidence frequently that indicates otherwise(especially children). As much as I would like to encourage our relationship, and he does grow more accustomed to me every day, I am not doing him any favours by doing that.


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## BHenderson

Hi all,

If I cannot get a decent cage to take the bird out to acclimatise him, I may have to buy one as cheap as possible.
I was wondering if I would be better off investing in a harness rather than a cage. I could put the harness on and let him fly around the garden, he would just feel the pull of the harness if he tried to go too far.
What do people think is best?

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Hi all,
On a second note, I have just sprayed the little fellow with the ectospray that I got. He made such a fuss and did not like being wet, so I let him go as soon as it was finished. I did notice he is still very thin, I will weigh him soon to see if he is gaining weight.
The chest bone is still poking out. He shows lots of energy and eats several times a day, but does not eat a lot. Do I need to worry about this, or will it just take time for him to put on weight.
As I say, he makes a very strenuous flight to the curtain rail several times a day so he is not showing signs of weakness.
He was constantly picking at himself(not grooming!) and so he needed to be sprayed, I just hope it works. Maybe he will need a second spray later?

Thank you all,
Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, most times one spraying will do the job. We do have to closely monitor his weight as this, as mentioned before will be part of the criteria that will go into when it will be appropriate to release him.

One thing you can do, to make an inexpensive home made "cage", can be done up using a large box, window/fly screen and duct tape. If you get a large, sturdy box, 2x3x3' and cut two large windows into it, not opposite but adjacent to each other, and cover these "windows" with screen and tape the screen in place using the duct tape you should have a solution. You can make the windows a good size 20x30", just make sure they are well secured with duct tape, please use duct tape as it really is strong with very good adhesive properties. After you cut the windows in the box with a box cutter, cut the screen about 2" bigger than the window, and tape in place with tension so the screen is a bit taut. You can line the bottom with newspaper and place food and water dished inside. 

It's important that you are within eyesight of his cage when having him spend time in the garden and make sure you place him in and out of his cage inside your house (making sure you interlock the flaps on top securely in place as well). The box you should be able to find for free and the duct tape and the amount of screen you will need should be just a few dollars at the hardware/building supply store.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I like the idea Karyn, I'll keep a look out for an appropriate box. I have also applied to freecycle and I will keep and eye out on the second hand sites for a cheap cage. Ultimately I would prefer a cage as I will need more in the future.


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## Quazar

I made my "soft release" cage from the wire shelves from old fridges & freezers.

4 shelves, duct taped together on the edges
1 on top (only taped along one edge so it can open), 
& 1 for the base. (and a sheet of cardboard to line it)
couldnt be any easier 

Have you got a municipal recycling centre near you ?
maybe worth a try


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## BHenderson

Hmmm ...... You have given me some ideas Quazar! Thank you.


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## BHenderson

I have noticed my little friend is still scratching his head a lot, do you think I should try to apply some permethrin to his head?


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> I have noticed my little friend is still scratching his head a lot, do you think I should try to apply some permethrin to his head?


Could be that he has new feathers that he is scratching at to break off the sheath to expose the feather inside, since they can't preen their own head/face. You could also, instead of spraying, dip a Q-Tip into the spray solution and carefully apply a bit to the base of his feathers on his head/neck area (a bit to the top/back/side/under-neck of the head is OK, but not too close to his eye area). Don't supper saturated the cotton swap so it drips a lot, but just enough to moisten the area you are applying to.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I am going to catch him again later and I will weigh him as well as trying the above procedure to apply some permethrin to his head feathers.
I think he has not been shown a few things, like bathing. He seemed to enjoy getting wet when I sprayed him the other day, but when he gets in the bowl that I have left out for him to bath he does not seem to know what to do. The water comes up to about the top of his legs, I dont know if this is too much? Once in the water he just stands there and does not flap about in the water or lower himself in the water. Maybe my bath is wrong.
He also eats in a funny way, preferring to throw all the seed on the floor first and then pick it off the floor lol.
I would like to find a little friend to stay with him, but because there are no new babies I think the baby season may be over. All of the sick pigeons that I kept finding outside my door were babies that had had a ruff start. If I could find another baby that needed to be released once it is better then I could release them together. My little friend would have some company to learn about pigeons with.

If anyone has any ideas who might have a baby pigeon in recovery please let me know. I am in Hammermsith, London in the UK.


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## Jay3

Quazar said:


> I made my "soft release" cage from the wire shelves from old fridges & freezers.
> 
> 4 shelves, duct taped together on the edges
> 1 on top (only taped along one edge so it can open),
> & 1 for the base. (and a sheet of cardboard to line it)
> couldnt be any easier
> 
> Have you got a municipal recycling centre near you ?
> maybe worth a try



Hey, great idea! Where there's a will, there's a way. Just no end to what you can do with Duct Tape!


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## BHenderson

I managed to find a bag of seed that only has red dari in it. No red millet. And sure enough my little friend started digging through the mixture picking out all the red ones. I can be sure now it is the red dari that he likes and order some for him. He must really like it, you should see the effort he goes to to find it.
I think it will be a good way to improve his appetite. He does like to eat the suet, especially first thing in the morning.
He has also started practising a sort of hovering flight, it means he can use his wings at full power whilst not going anywhere. Its hard for him to use his wings extensively as the room is not big enough, but he continues to fly around early in the morning before I get up.
I am trying to find bits that I can use to make a cage, I hope to have a solution soon. Has anyone brought one of these harnesses, some of them are only 30 pounds. Are they any good ?

Brian.


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## BHenderson

I have found a shop with some very cheap cages. I did not know the cages got this cheap. Could someone have a look at these and tell me if they would be appropriate for slow release cages.

http://www.robharvey.com/transport-boxes.html

The above shop also has cheap harnesses as well.....

http://www.robharvey.com/parrot-harness.html

This is a better quality but more expensive harness.......

http://www.birdsupplies.com/aviator-bird-harness-for-flying/

And here are some other cages I was looking at that I can possibly afford.......

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Small-Indoo..._1_2?s=outdoors&ie=UTF8&qid=1317673276&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/FARINA-BUDG..._1_8?s=outdoors&ie=UTF8&qid=1317673276&sr=1-8

http://www.amazon.co.uk/CAGE-JINGLE..._1_9?s=outdoors&ie=UTF8&qid=1317673276&sr=1-9

Would anyone care to comment if these are OK?


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## Jay3

The first cage is nice. Very open and with large doors which is what you need with a pigeon. Cages with the smaller doors are not good for getting a pigeon in or out of the cage.


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## BHenderson

Thanks for the opinion Jay3, I'm seriously looking at that one. I might be able to get it this weekend.

I have not had to catch my little friend for a few days now, so when I went to catch him he gave me a good run around. He is certainly fit! Anyway, I was a bit concerned when I weighed him, as he appears to be 200 grams or near enough as makes no difference. This means he has actually lost about 10-20 grams since I first weighed him. His appetite appears good, although he does not eat a lot he eats several times a day. He waters himself regularly. The only habit he does not seem interested in is bathing, even though I have put out a regular bowl of water for him.
Should I be worried? I am going to order 5kg of red dari, which he seems to love. I hope this will stimulate his appetite. He eats all the other foods I put out, but never very much. I have a mixture of chopped peanuts, green split peas, red lentils, bird table seed(where he gets the red dari!), and a pigeon food mix from the pet shop. I have also put down a square of berry flavoured suet, which he pecks at occasionally. I think he preferred the suet with mixed seed in. Anyway, I think that is quite a variation in his diet.
I also mix a tiny amount of something called 'Black Magic' that is molasses mixed with vitamins. It also provides minerals and amino acids. I put it down a couple of times a week and he seems to drink some, but I do not think he is that keen on it. Obviously I also put out some Kilpatrick's pigeon grit in a little dish, he seems to take some of that on a regular basis as well.

Am I doing something wrong with his food, or is it normal for him to take so long to put on weight?

Thanks in advance for any advice,
Brian.

P.s. Just as a little side issue, he has taken to sitting on the floor, which I though was unusual for pigeons. I do not change or turn over the tea towels that I cover everything with straight away as soon as one dropping is on it. I wait until 3-4 droppings build up then I turn it over and after that I change it for a new one. Is the pigeon objecting that the tea towels are not clean? is that why he has taken to sitting on the floor? Or am I panicking over nothing?


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## Dobato

Brian, we are going to have to work on his weight a bit, as 200g is quite a bit underweight. Part of what is happening is that with his new found energy he is burning up the calories that he is taking in each day, so we are at a stand off, as far as getting weight on him is concerned. The answer to this is to provide them with higher calorie food items as you are doing and also increasing the amount of an item that they show real interest in eating, as you are also doing by getting in more red dari seeds.

What those of us who can tube feeding might also do is tube feed him maybe a meal late day to increase his daily overall calorie in take. Since you can't do this there is an alternative for you and that would be to hand feed him some formula balls a few times a day. You can do this by picking up a box of Ready Brek at the store, and measuring out 2 level tablespoons of the flakes, to this add 1 teaspoon of fresh olive oil (could be peanut or corn, but needs to be real fresh), stir this in well with a spoon, then using your thumb and forefinger knead the oil well into the flakes, so the are well moistened with the oil. To this add 1 teaspoon of warm water, stir in until the cereal just comes together into a large ball and it will be ready to feed. It's important that you don't knead the dough, as this will activate the gluten and make the balls slower to fall apart in the crop, and you have to add things in the order directed, oil first, then water, or again, it will make the balls not want to easily break down.

Break off small pieces of this "cereal dough", gently roll into a small ball, about the size of a good size green pea and "pop" it down him as you did with the Metronidazole pieces, here is a link to remind you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

I want you to feed him 5 balls later morning and then 5 balls later evening, so 10 balls a day right now to start. This may not seem like a lot, but each ball will be about 1kcal each, so you will be increasing his daily calorie intake by about 10kcal, this should mean a 25%+ boost in his daily calorie intake.

You can divide the Ready Brek dough into 4 pieces, as each 1/4 will give you about 10-12 balls and freeze the other three. To do this, get a small piece foil and flatten each dough piece down and wrap in the foil, as flattening it will make for quicker warming later. To warm, pop a foil pack into a plastic zip bag, squeeze all the air out, seal, and place this into a bowl of very warm water.

If he is acting well, good energy, looking bright, no labored breathing and good droppings, then I would not be too concern about him on the floor, but if he is not presenting as I just indicated, please mention this.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Hi Karyn, thank you for the detailed reply.

As I mentioned, he is showing signs of being in good health. If there was anything I thought looked dodgy I would put it here straight away.

I am quite happy to feed him the 'dough balls' as you have said. I look forward to having some close contact with him, as I try to leave him alone because I worry that it is not good for him to trust humans too much. I am getting better at handling him, his little ways. I have noticed that he feels safest(or does not struggle) when I lift him to my shoulder and hold him close.

Anyway, You mentioned 'tube feeding'. I have been shown this at a haven that I went to drop a bird off at. I was shown how you must get past their breathing hole if you are going to insert a tube and push food in.
I was told to get this formula, which was used at the haven to feed baby pigeons - 

http://www.24parrot.com/Kaytee-Exact-Hand-Feeding-Formula-Parrot-P577103a/

And I was told these cat teats are good, if you make the hole at the top a little bigger - 

http://www.purrsonaltouch.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=115&P_ID=581

Obviously you attach them to a syringe and fill with kaytee mix.

I was planning to get this stuff soon in case I find a sick youngster. If you think I should try to feed him this way I can send off for this stuff at the weekend?

I will start to feed him the ready brek from tommorow, as soon as I can get it. Let me know what you think.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, I had a look at the links you posted and, yes, the first link contains the type of hand-feeding formula needed when tube feeding. In the second link, the small tubes used for cats would be too short to get all the way down into a pigeon's crop and using them would not be recommend as they would be too risky, as their use may cause aspiration.

Let's do the balls, they are safe and effective and will help put weight back on birds, and as he does well with them we will increase the amount a day, up to 8-10 per feeding. As now that you are tuned into what a sick bird looks like chances are that at some point in the future you will have another in, and that may need tube feeding. Here is a link to some information to get you ready for that day:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=549961&postcount=77

Karyn


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## BHenderson

My little friend has taken to sitting in front of the little mirrors I have left around and staring at himself. They are funny. I would never have believed he would have got to like the mirrors as much as he has, when I first put them out he ignored them. I'm glad I have found something that interests him as I was worried about him being bored. It must be boring being stuck in my flat when you think of the freedom of the skies that is their normal birthright. If anyone has any further suggestions about things I can do to make it less boring for him I would appreciate it very much. I am keeping an eye out for a possible companion for him, but obviously I would only take a pigeon in if it is ill.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## BHenderson

Ok I have some good news and some bad news. I managed to get him to eat the little balls of ready brek, but he does not seem to have a big enough mouth to take anything like the size of ball that would mean he eats a quarter of the mix in five or even 10 balls. At the size I finally managed to get him to eat the balls at it would have taken about 20 balls to feed him the ball of mixture. The other 3 quarters have been frozen as per your suggestion. He struggled a lot and was reluctant, but as I said I have not had to handle him for a while. Strangest thing is as soon as I put him down he started eating (to get rid of the taste of the dough balls lol). I think things will get better as he realises what I want him to do and realises that the sooner he does it the sooner he gets put down again. As I say, I'm pretty sure he ate about 5 small balls. I tried to give him bigger ones, but they were difficult to get in his small mouth, and he kept flicking his head as soon as I let go of his beak, which meant the big balls went across the room. The smaller balls I was able to drop far enough down his throat that he could not flick them out.

I hope it improves in the coming days, I will give him 5 more in the morning.

Brian.

P.s. I have some garlic capsules that I take. Apparently garlic is not only good for them, but they like it. Do you think I should mix some in the ready brek?


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## Jay3

Defrosted and warmed peas and corn go down a lot easier, as they are soft and smooth.


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## BHenderson

Hmmm - What about the calorie content, I think the idea is to try and put as many calories in as little space as possible? I am open to suggestions though, I will get some tomorrow(payday!) and maybe alternate?

It does look like his nails are getting long, they are getting caught up in the tea towel that I wrap him in when I feed him. They are obviously not getting worn down. I see some articles on here about cutting them, but opinion is spit on whether it is necessary? They look like they might be getting uncomfotable, they are lifting up his toes?

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Karyn,
I managed to feed him another five balls this morning, but he was really resisting taking them, I had to hold his head while he struggles and push it far down his throat to stop him throwing it across the room. I must admit that this had me in hysterics again, but I don't think he understood what was so funny. Again he started eating again straight after.

I don't think it would be good to push it too far, if he really hates it it will become a big task to catch him. I will continue if you think it best, but if there is something else we can try I would prefer to try that. I will continue until I hear from you.

Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, you can certainly make the balls smaller to "pop" and just feed more, using your judgement, as to how many more more you would feed to make up for the reduction in size, so say instead of 5, feeding 8. Food "popping" should be pretty straight forward and just a take a minute or two if you roll the balls, line them up and pop them one after the other, wrapping him in a small towel will help with control. Getting weight on him means getting more calories into him, this means more food, so either he starts to eat more, we supplement him, or we confine him to reduce him burning up his calories. I think the safest and best for thing for him would be to make sure there is lots of food around he likes,as you are doing and popping the balls. There is tube feeding, but while generally safe when done right, there are some risks with tubing not present with popping food. Keep working at it, you may get into a rhythm and he may get used to a quick popping of some extra food.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I have noticed that when my little friend sees the other pigeons feeding outside, he goes over to his own food and starts eating. I was thinking of moving his food closer to the door to see if it will stimulate him to eat? what do you think?

Also I was thinking of taking up his food, as there is always lots on offer, and having feeding times instead. Maybe if He starts to feel hunger he may be stimulated to eat?

I have been thinking, with the change in weather, I think it will be hard to release him this side of the cold weather, especially considering how thin he is. I continue to feed him little ready brek balls and I have Red Dari and some other mixes coming soon, but unless he puts on a lot of weight he is going to have trouble keeping warm.

I would add that I dont mind him staying, I am quite attached to him now and it will be a sad day when he goes. I would change my setup though. If he is going to be here long term then I will re-arrange things so it is easier for me to clean.

Hope everyone is well.
Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, I think you have things exactly right in your mind. Move food to where he can watch the other birds eat and "flock" with them. Just a note, that you can have food in a few places for him, so you could just place another dish by the door/window. Plus, you are also right in thinking he may have to winter over with you, allowing him to fatten up with an expected release date in the spring, as he is no where near ready at his present body weight. If he is doing well with the Ready Brek balls you can add a few more in each feeding, it may take a few weeks for you start to see what you are doing really show up on the scale. Myself, I would leave his food available for him at all times.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

I got the Red Dari today, and gave him a small handful on top of his other food. He ate the lot in one sitting. I am pleased, as I was worried that he would turn his nose up at it after it arrived. I have plenty, and I will put it out in small amounts to keep his interest. I have some other seed mixes that I got at the same time that should interest him, they have a variety of hard to get seeds in.
I wonder why he likes Red Dari so much, its not like he has been around long enough to develop tastes?

Anyway, moving his feeding area by the glass door next to the garden means he does eat when the other pigeons come to get some seed or bread I have put out for them. He likes to eat the same thing as them as well, so I always put down for him what I have just put outside. He seems to quite like the brown bread I put down.
Unfortunately, when the pigeons fly off, he lets out these little baby squeaks, which really pull at my heart strings. He is obviously sad that the other birds are leaving and wants to be with them.
I have a cage arriving soon and I hope to let him out in it. It must be boring cooped up in here all the time. I will try to do my best to let him experience the outside, but as you and others have told me, if I let him go now he will just end up dead from the cold or startvation because he does not have enough weight on him.
I have seen and improvement in how much he is eating, and I hope the arrival of the Dari will further stimulate that. I am pleased I now have a treat for him.

Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, I am glad to hear your little guy's appetite has picked up and he is going to town on the red dari. Try weighing him every few days and see if you can see an uptick in his weight. I am sure he will enjoy being out when your cage comes, just keep a good eye on him and supervise he outdoor visits.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Hi All,
Just thought I would report further improvements in my little friends appetite, he is now eating several times a day and eats a lot. He still throws more around than he eats but that is just funny rather than a problem. He also loves the garlic pieces that I got, I thought that was something you had to hide in the rest of their food but he seems to eat it by the handful. Its all good as apparently it is very good for them. I also take garlic and like the taste of it as well, so there wont be any problems with bad breath lol.

He comes over to say hello whenever I come in now, and he occasionally comes over to my part of the room to see what I am doing. I talk to him and sing silly songs. I try to play with him but he is still too nervous to let me touch him. He has started wing slapping me when I try to fill his bowl as well. He also pretends to peck me, but he does not get close enough to actually peck me. I don't know if he thinks I am going to take his food, or if he considers it his territory? Does anyone know what he is objecting to? He does not try to do it in any other situation, so he has not taken a general dislike to me, its just when I am trying to put down more food for him?

I have the new travel cage, and I am going to put it together tonight. I will put a comfortable bottom in it and put a small water and food bowl.
What am I trying to do with this cage? Should I just take it into the garden and keep an eye on it from a distance? Should I put it where the other pigeons feed, so he is very close to other pigeons? It seems a little like torture to let him be so close to the other pigeons but he is still in a cage? Should I take him out to local parks and let him get a look around?

On another note, one of the local parks I go to visit, I think it is part of the church grounds, has a pair of beautiful big black crows. They are gorgeous, and have a touch of the 'Royal' about them. I don't know why I feel that about the crows but this is a very healthy looking pair, and they are getting to know me. They know if I walk onto the green I have something to feed them. They don't get as close as the pigeons, but they get close enough for me to get a good look at them. I throw them big chunks of brown bread, but I am sure their food is different to pigeons and I want to know if there is anything I can offer them that they will really like. I would really like to be friends with these two crows, I think they are beautiful. If anyone can tell me what to feed them I would be grateful?

Hope you are all well,
Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, I have not finished reading your thread, but please do not let him eat garlic.

Karyn



BHenderson said:


> Hi All,
> Just thought I would report further improvements in my little friends appetite, he is now eating several times a day and eats a lot. He still throws more around than he eats but that is just funny rather than a problem. He also loves the garlic pieces that I got, I thought that was something you had to hide in the rest of their food but he seems to eat it by the handful. Its all good as apparently it is very good for them. I also take garlic and like the taste of it as well, so there wont be any problems with bad breath lol.
> 
> He comes over to say hello whenever I come in now, and he occasionally comes over to my part of the room to see what I am doing. I talk to him and sing silly songs. I try to play with him but he is still too nervous to let me touch him. He has started wing slapping me when I try to fill his bowl as well. He also pretends to peck me, but he does not get close enough to actually peck me. I don't know if he thinks I am going to take his food, or if he considers it his territory? Does anyone know what he is objecting to? He does not try to do it in any other situation, so he has not taken a general dislike to me, its just when I am trying to put down more food for him?
> 
> I have the new travel cage, and I am going to put it together tonight. I will put a comfortable bottom in it and put a small water and food bowl.
> What am I trying to do with this cage? Should I just take it into the garden and keep an eye on it from a distance? Should I put it where the other pigeons feed, so he is very close to other pigeons? It seems a little like torture to let him be so close to the other pigeons but he is still in a cage? Should I take him out to local parks and let him get a look around?
> 
> On another note, one of the local parks I go to visit, I think it is part of the church grounds, has a pair of beautiful big black crows. They are gorgeous, and have a touch of the 'Royal' about them. I don't know why I feel that about the crows but this is a very healthy looking pair, and they are getting to know me. They know if I walk onto the green I have something to feed them. They don't get as close as the pigeons, but they get close enough for me to get a good look at them. I throw them big chunks of brown bread, but I am sure their food is different to pigeons and I want to know if there is anything I can offer them that they will really like. I would really like to be friends with these two crows, I think they are beautiful. If anyone can tell me what to feed them I would be grateful?
> 
> Hope you are all well,
> Brian.


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## BHenderson

I thought it was good for him? There are all kinds of garlic products on the pigeon web sites?


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## Dobato

Brian, I would not advise feeding your little guy any garlic, I can't remember in your thread where it was suggested you do this, but not a good idea, IMO.

There is lots of information out there on garlic and birds, every thing from very SMALL amounts are OK, to none at all, here's one link:

http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-diet-and-health/bird-nutrition/birds-onions-and-garlic.aspx

I guess with me, if the advice is SMALL amount or none, with any given item, I would choose none. They are many fanciers that crush garlic, let it steep in water for varying periods of time and letting their birds drink this, which seems to be quite OK, but no pieces of the garlic itself, IMO.

With the crows, most pigeon keeps like it when they are around as they ward off flying predators, like hawks. If fact some make a habit of feeding them to keep them around for this purpose. There are a few people on the forum that do have some knowledge of the Corvidae family of birds, they may see you post and have some suggestion on food. But you may have more luck with table scraps, like small pieces of cooked meat or scrambled eggs, than with bread, although I think they have a pretty broad diet of what they will eat, if they need to survive.

Yes, put him right in with the other pigeons, in his cage, and just keep an eye on him a little distance.

Karyn


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> I thought it was good for him? There are all kinds of garlic products on the pigeon web sites?


Like with many things, there will be differing opinions, but as I mentioned, if the are cautions on a given item, why take the chance. Here's a thread where this was discussed before:

www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/the-use-of-garlic-19336.html

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Thanks for the warning, I had only heard one side of the garlic debate. I will not feed him any more until I have read some more. When I saw it being offered in the bird seed website that I ordered from I naturally assumed it was OK.

Any ideas on why he has suddenly taken to wing-slapping me when I try to fill his dish with food?


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## Dobato

BHenderson said:


> Thanks for the warning, I had only heard one side of the garlic debate. I will not feed him any more until I have read some more. When I saw it being offered in the bird seed website that I ordered from I naturally assumed it was OK.
> 
> Any ideas on why he has suddenly taken to wing-slapping me when I try to fill his dish with food?


Brian, the wing slapping is a great sign , it is showing growth and maturity, as he is staking out his territory and defending it.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Eek....I'm glad the wing slapping is a sign of his progress, but the feeding area that he is defending is right in front of the garden door. I moved it there so he would feel closer to the other birds when he is eating. I have to regularly go out there to fill the peanut feeder for the squirrels, and to put a bit of food for the pigeons so he has someone to eat with?
I will respect his territory as much as I can, but its a bit awkward!!!! lol.

lol, he still sounds like he has a whistle stuck in his throat, whenever he is upset about anything I just get the sound of a broken whistle lol.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

Well reading your posts makes me see the similarity between the habits of our birds.
As Karyn said the wing slapping is very normal. All my birds do that to me if I dare go too close. It's a shame really as I'm usually giving them a treat but they do it all the same, ungrateful things!
Dusty my little friend is the only one that doesn't slap me, so far. I suppose it's because I'm been rearing him for a while and so he sees my hands as friends, but he does peck out at me sometimes if I go in for a kiss!!

He also like your friend, (no name come to mind yet?), is picky about his seeds. He's only just learnt how to feed himself but selects certain brown seeds and scatters all the others on the floor. After a while he may try another type but there are loads he doesn't touch.
This will have to change! All my others are picky but I only top up their seed tray once they've been forced, through necessity, to eat the other seeds or I'd be left with all sorts going to waste. Now what they don't eat goes to the garden birds so all gets eaten in the end.
Looking forward to hearing how your friend gets on in his cage.

Janet


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## BHenderson

Its funny, like you say Janet, watching his habits slowly change. He wing-slaps at the same time he starts eating the food as it comes out of the bag. He is getting spoilt at the moment, I am giving him several different seed mixes and letting him pick out what he wants and throwing the rest to the pigeons outside. Its going to get difficult though if he keeps attacking me when I try to clean up the feeding area.
Despite his defensive behaviour, he is actually getting closer to me. At night when he is bored, he has started flying over to the bed to see what I am doing, and he is getting closer and closer to me and seeing what I will do lol. Its very cute. I sing him silly little ditties.

I am trying to think of a name for him, I have several that sort of describe him but they are unwieldy and I do actually like calling him 'My little friend' as that is what he is. But I am thinking about it regularly and I will try to think of a name. I don't know if they respond to names once they get to know them?

I will write up a longer bit when I start taking him out. One of the down sides of him investigating my room is that I keep finding little droppings in the strangest places!

Did you see the bit about the pair of crows in the church green near by? I have rarely seen crows as big as these two, and they are jet black and shiny all over. They look really proud as well, sort of royal. I do like crows, they have a lot of associations for Pagans!

Brian.


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## BHenderson

The wing slapping thing is so funny, they know you are trying to feed them and yet they slap your hand and knock the food out of it. I don't understand what could be going through their minds. If I stayed away as he wanted, he would not get fed or watered. Anyone got anything to say about this aspect of pigeon behaviour? You cant help but admire it in some ways, it would be like me going up to an elephant and kicking it in the shins lol. They must have some bottle to take on something so much bigger than them lol.

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

I meant to comment on the crows and forgot so thanks for mentioning it.
I have a few sets of crows that know me and I feed regularly when out.
When I walk my dog they see me coming into the field and fly up into the same tree and wait. I usually just throw them some Wheatmeal bread or any left over dog biscuits he's left over. I soak them a bit first so they're not to hard.
Any Crows I get in the garden tend to pick up the bread and put it in the bird bath first before eating it!!
Now before I sadly lost my other dog a couple of months ago I used to walk him in Sutton Park near here and I had loads of different pairs that had their own territories and as I walked round, (the park is a massive woodland), they would appear almost out of nowhere to be fed. Once I'd walked past this invisable boundary to their territories, they'd not follow me any more and the nest ones would appear. If one dared encrouch on anothers part there'd be one hell of a fight!
I did have one special crow though that would actually come down and walk along with me as I fed him, his mate was a little more wary. It was like having another dog. He would come with me for ages but disappear when we'd reached his boundary. Quite amazing really.
They certainly seem to recognise faces as other folks I know who walk there don't have them come down to them, so the food is definitely the trigger.
Another thing they love is peanuts. If ever I throw bread and peanuts at the same time they ignore the bread and only go back to that once the peanuts have all gone. Just like our pigeons, they have their favourite foods.
They are so intelligent and so I think you'll find you'll soon have some new 'very good friends' if you start a routine with them as well.

I have a friend that has three disabled crows that she has made an enclosure for in her garden and also has a Magpie.
They always come down with the crows as well by the way. They mop up any left overs.

You'll have to start a new thread in the Stories Section and keep us informed as to how your new relationships are developing with the Crows. 

Janet


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## BHenderson

I put together the travel cage today. There were no instructions with it so it took me a while to figure out how to undo all the bits and make it assemble into a cage. The cage is a bit smaller than I thought it would be, but I think I can still put the pigeon in it. I would not want him to be in it for too long though. If anyone knows of some bigger cages that are not too expensive I would like to get a bigger one.
Its has two bowls attached to the side for water and food so it does not spill, which is good. The bottom is just more cage though, I think it was originally for budgies or something. I think I will need to put some cardboard on the bottom to make it comfortable for a pigeon. There is a collection tray underneath for collecting droppings but as I say I think it would be uncomfortable for a pigeon to walk on the caged bottom, so I will cover it up with cardboard.
I will try putting him in it and putting it out with the other pigeons in the expected sunny weather tommorow. I will not do it for too long the first time as he will probably wonder what is happening. I will have to be close by as well as there are several cats that take an interest in this house because of the number of birds that are around it.

With regard to the crows, I agree that they do seem to get to know you. They see me feeding the pigeons and have started to come over. I throw them some bread, and they take it, but rather than stay around like the pigeons to eat it, they fly off with it. Maybe they are doing what you said Janet and going to dip it in some water. I have not tried dog biscuits before, I will have a look at some of them and see what is in them. I have tried to put down peanuts but they seemed to ignore them. I will try with peanuts again. I know they will eat more protein rich foods than pigeons, so maybe dog biscuits are appropriate. Cat biscuits might also be appropriate, but you have to be careful that none are left over as when they start rotting they smell a lot more than most things.

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Oh dear, I dont think the cage worked that well. I left the assembled cage on the floor with the food bowl and water bowl full. When my little friend got in to have a look at the food bowl I closed the door. Unfortunately he panicked and banged himself against the side. I was going to let him go when the birds started turning up outside, so I put the cage outside the garden door. He calmed down and started eating the food with the other birds and the brown bread I put in there. Again, unfortunately, when the other birds were startled by something and all flew off, he panicked again and started banging himself up against the cage. Even when the other pigeons were feeding around him he kept trying to get through the cage to get out. 

In the end I did not leave him out there for long, I have brought him back in and he has flown up to the curtain rail and looks like he is sulking. I do not think the whole experience was that good for him. I have left the cage on the floor with the door open in the hope he will investigate it and become more comfortable with it.

What do people think, is this normal and I should just persist and hopefully my little friend will get used to going into the cage and going outside? Should I give him a period of going in and out of the cage to get used to it, before I use it to take him outside? or should I continue to take him outside when the other birds are feeding and in time he will get used to it?

I do feel a bit guilty as he had such a rotten time in something I was hoping was going to be a nice experience for him. Am I doing something wrong?

Brian.


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## Quazar

On the whole Brian I would say the panick when the other birds left is actually a very good sign as this is what he would need to do in free life in order to flee predators. If he were to sit & do nothing, then alas he wouldnt last very long.
Its also good that he is wanting to join the other birds, but its still too early to let him go yet. Are the other birds showing an interest in him, or just the food ? 

He will probably "sulk" for a bit as the experiance is new and strange to him, but hopefully he will return to the cage for food. Maybe remove food from other places so he becomes accustomed to actually entering the cage for food. Try a couple of times to let him get in the cage WITHOUT closing him in, so he understands that hes NOT going to be locked up every time and that it is safe.


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## BHenderson

Yes thanks for the advice, I have left the cage out for him to investigate, but at the moment, as you have suggested, he appears to be sulking or getting over the shock. He has stayed up on the curtain rail ever since he come in, which is unusual as he normally flies around and comes over to see what I am doing. I think he thought he was being abandoned.

The other pigeons didn't seem to take much notice of him, but I think they were very hungry and were more concerned with eating the food. It was obviously a bit of a shock for him, and I think I should have allowed him to become accustomed to the cage before taking him outside. I am going to leave the cage on the ground and leave food in there for him to investigate. I am going to give him a bit of time before I try to take him out again.
He seem sometimes to almost be asking to go out, he watches the other pigeons from his chair and lets out these little 'broken whistle' sounds when they fly off, like he is really sad that they are leaving. Perhaps I am anthropomorphising too much. He has come down once in the past 3 hours to get some food, and has done some preening up there, but it may be the fact the cage is on the floor with the door open that is making him stay up there. I think I will put it away for tonight as he has had such a shock and get it out again tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice, this is one area that I am totally lost in. I dont know what is best for the pigeon.

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian, I've always had the same response when I've put a pigeon outside in a cage with other birds about I'm afraid. It's quite normal, but sadly makes it hard as far as your plan for a soft release goes.
What I have done before that sometimes helps is cover the cage with a cloth on all but one side so he doesn't feel as exposed and vulnerable. I put the cage under a bush or with it's back against a solid place. It is good he sees the others as his kind and he will fly off with them at some point when he's ready to go which is good.
Yes I'd leave the cage around and try putting his favourite seeds in there so he has a good incentive to go in but don't be disappointed if he doesn't go in.

Don't worry too much ATM it's the first time.

Janet


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## Quazar

Maybe also put the cage on a table rather than the floor, let him see and hear you putting food & water in the cage (shake the seed box to get his attention) They dont tend to sulk for long as their inquisitiveness soon takes over


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## BHenderson

His mood has improved a bit just before I start lowering the lights, he has started flying around again and has been eating. If in the long run he ends up being a permanent pet, I won't pretend that I will be disappointed. I think he is lovely and I would love for him to settle with me. But, and for me this is a big but, I do not feel I have the right to do that. I do not have the right to deny this guy his freedom just so I have some company. So I want to release him if it is at all possible. If he becomes to used to living with me, and is likely to die if I release him, them I would keep him rather than let him die. I am aware that if I had not rescued him, he would have stayed grounded in the cold night. Even if he had lasted another couple of days, he already had a stomach infection and would have eventually died, so I do not feel guilty about rescuing him. At least he has a life this way.
What I am trying to build up to is, I might try some different things in the hope it will acclimatise him better. I am thinking specifically of getting a second pigeon that needs convalescing time. It would be good if I new his sex them I could make sure I get a potential companion. He would then have the chance to get used to pigeon company, and later I could try letting them both outside with the cage. Hopefully I could then build up to letting them both go together. 
If it turns out that they both decide they want to stay(I'm not sure how you go about asking them lol) then I would end up with some lovely pigeon company. I know they live a long time so I am not getting into anything that I am not ready for. In fact, part of what lead me down this path of trying to help wildlife is I prefer the company of animals to people. Its not that I dont like people, Its just that I find animals less stressful to be with. Although I hate to admit to this, I probably talk to animals more than people lol.

This text is a bit rambling, But I think you will be able to see what I am getting at. I need to look for a second pigeon. I might find one that is sick outside, but the baby season is pretty much over, so I think I will have to ask around to see if anyone else who looks after pigeons has an appropriate one.

What do you all think?

Brian.


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## Quazar

Brian, I know exactly where youre coming from lol
If you get another bird then whether you decide to release them or not, they will prefer a "mate" for company - however....
It is very difficult, without DNA testing, to determine the sex of a pigeon, especially one so young.
Some say they can tell from their behaviour & have been proved wrong lol.
Apart from DNA, the only way to tell the sex is if it lays an egg.
If it does - its female,
If it doesnt - it MAY still be a female lol.
(I had a friend with an African Grey Parrot, they had had it for around 15 years & were convinced it was male, suddenly one morning they found an egg in the cage )
If you get another bird, (after a quarantine period as you must make sure the new bird will not pass anything on to your current rescue) they need to be kept separately for a while, where they can see each other & get used to each other before actually being put together. 
This is the case no matter what sexes they are as your current rescue will be very territorial. 
Now, heres the difficult part. 2 females will normally hapilly live with each other, as will a male & female when introduced properly, but if 2 Males, there is more chance they will probably fight as they get older.

Your point about letting him be free is one I also have problems with at times especially when you have them from such a young age & they do get so close to you.
I have 2 rescues at the moment, one cannot be released as he (she) cant fly due to a wing injury that has healed, but left the wing "frozen" so it wont open properly to give him any lift.
The 2nd is almost ready for soft release routine, but I am seriously thinking of keeping him (her) as they both enjoy each others company so much.
Bear this in mind also, even as a single bird, they can and do adapt very well to human company (heres a recent example) & will normally live much healthier & longer in captivity than they would when set free. 
They may be free to fly wherever they wish, but are also prey to many types of predators (including humans) and being around a kind human in their upbringing no matter how good a soft release they have, will always leave them "semi-trusting" for the first few weeks of their freedom.


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## BHenderson

Thank you Quazar For you detailed answer, You have helped me make my mind up. 

After yesterdays terrible episode(i dont think I put in that at one point it looked like he collapsed in the bottom of the cage in fright, I think because he did not know what was going to happen) I am feeling quite guilty about rushing things. I should have given him more time to get used to the cage before I tried to lock him in, and again I should have given him time in the cage before moving it outside. He initially reacted so well to the cage, and I think this is why I thought it was ok to charge ahead and put him straight outside.

I am now leaning on the side of keeping him. He does show signs of being happy here, and I think I'm inclined to 'project'. It seems to me that a bird that once had the open skies to fly in would find the inside of a house cramping. This may not be as bad as I thought for the bird. And after what you have said about the good life a bird can have with a human than the harsh life he will undoubtedly have outside, I am now leaning on the side of keeping him.

What I think I will do is try to get one of the harnesses I keep mentioning. I have read other people have these and they can work well, giving the bird the chance of outside exercise. With a bit of training they can also be allowed to mix with other birds. I have read that the better quality ones, rather than just pulling tight if the bird goes too far, rather slowly tighten so it is more and more difficult the further the bird goes.

Also I am going to look at sexing him. He will need a companion, and I will feel better if he has a companion. I sometimes have to go to conferences and I can arrange for someone to pop in regular, but he will need company. It is quite easy, I think, to divide the room in two with some kind of netting down the middle. This will allow me to introduce them slowly.

By the way I have tried to find a price for the dna sexing service, but they seem to avoid putting it up. I assume this means its expensive? If anyone knows an estimated cost I would be grateful. I also have some information on harnesses that fit pigeons, but if anyone knows of further info on this subject I would also be interested.

I am still open to potentially releasing my little friend in the future. I will have to see how it goes. I don't want to terrify him again in the manner of yesterday. He seems to have forgiven me, he has been flying onto the bed to encourage me to get up this morning, which made me very happy. He is getting used to living with me and I with him. I need to work out some procedures to make it easier to clean up after him(I'm thinking of getting rid of the carpet). He seems to have claimed an area of the room for himself. The downside of this is that I sometimes see him pining for contact with the birds outside the garden door, but this is not as bad as when he first arrived. I think the harness could be the answer to the pining?

Again I wish to thank everyone for helping me work out what to do, I would have been lost without the advice I have been given.

Brian.


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## Jay3

I believe the cost of the DNA testing is about $25.

Putting up shelves or roosts for him in areas where you would like him to perch helps with keeping poop confined to a few places, and you can just put something under them to catch the droppings. Works well with our house pigeon.

I hope you are not talking about leaving him outside to be with the other birds with a harness on?


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## BHenderson

Oh dear, Is that not possible? I thought I could open the garden door and sit near the entrance and hold one end of the harness, and let my little friend venture out with the other pigeons and mix with them when they are feeding. They feed with me very close by as I have been feeding them a while now. They used to come in to the house as well, something I have only stopped since my little friend has been here as I am worried about him escaping.
The only thing he would not be able to do is fly off. I have just thought about infections. Ah...... I suppose I would only do it if I was still trying to acclimatise him for release. Is there some other problem that I have not thought of?

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

I think once you've made your mind up that he can stay then you'll be able to relax and then things will develope in their own time, making any decision about future release a bit easier. I can imagine just how you're feeling as I too worry a lot when I have a bird that could be released but don't know what's best for it.
I reckon if 'Little Friend' just continues as he is for now but then still shows signs in the future of hankering after his friends then you've got your answer.
My youngster that's been so sick recently and had to stay indoors with me is now outside with the others and starting to gain in confidence amongst the others but initially he was really scared of them all.
If they startled and flew then he'd do the same in panic. You could have thought he was ok and wanting to fly as well but in fact he was trying to get away from them. Your youngster might just have been scared and if he'd been free, would more than likely fly in the opposite direction to the others, then not know what to do. Keep him safe and see how things go long term.

Janet


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## BHenderson

I think that is very good advice Janet.


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## Jay3

What would you do if he did try to fly with them when they get spooked? He would take off at a fast clip, then quickly reach the end of his rope, so to speak. I don't know. I would think that could hurt him. Also, it only takes seconds for a hawk to grab him. People have had them grabbed right off their shoulders.


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## BHenderson

There are potential problems with a harness, but I have also seen some good videos of people using them with pigeons on google video. I will have to think about it when the time is closer and maybe I have had some time with the pigeon on its own in the park.
We do not really have a hawk population in London so that is one less thing to worry about.

I am thinking that pigeons are trained to return home from great distances, so it must be possible to train the pigeon to return home to me if I let it out to mix with other pigeons? I will have to look into this.

Brian.


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## Jay3

I really don't mean to keep sounding negative to you, but it's kinda hard to have it both ways. Either you keep him as a pet, or let him loose to mix with the others. Letting him out to mix with others, he would most likely leave. You can't just send him out to play with his friends and then expect him to come home at the end of the day. Eventually he would probably find a mate and leave you. Usually you have to decide which you want, a pet or release, and then go with it. Glad you don't have a hawk problem as we do over here.


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## BHenderson

Further up the thread you will see an attept was made the other day to put him outside in a cage with the other pigeons. It did not go well. He was extremely frightened by the whole thing. Now this may have been down to me not giving him enough time to get used to the cage before letting him out but I had no way of knowing that at the time.
In view of how bad this experience was for him, I am not going to do it again until he has time to get used to the cage and then maybe I can try again. Winter is also approaching and he still needs to put on some more weight before it will be possible to release him and him have a chance at survival, he is barely over 200grams!
I am thinking that he will probably not be released before next spring, so if he is to have a chance to reintegrate with other pigeons, I have to find a way to keep him in contact with them, hence the current discussion.
I have acknowledged further up that he is likely to end up staying with me, but I feel I owe it to him to at least try and give him a chance at reintegration.

Brian.


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## Jay3

I have read your thread, and realize the problems. You are right in that he will have to wait til spring to be released, if that is what you decide to do. All I am saying is that you can not just let him out to mix with the others, and expect that he will keep returning to you. He will most likely take off, and as you have said, he isn't yet ready to do that. 

You could always get another pigeon for company and then release them together when he is ready.


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## BHenderson

I admit some of the things I am suggesting do not sound that sensible in retrospect, I was just thinking aloud.

I think having another pigeon will make him happiest. He seems to be a bit less happy since the events of the other day. He still wing slapped my hand this morning but a lot of the time he is flying up while I put the food down. He seemed to take great enjoyment in slapping me when I was putting the food out before. I wish I had been more careful and not upset him so much the other day, I think he thought he was being thrown out. I want to spoil him a bit to let him know it is ok, I have put down lots of different types of food and I talk to him a lot. He likes being talked to, he watches me when I am talking to him and sneaks closer the longer I talk.

If anyone is interested my friend has told me the harness she used with her pigeons, she did not have perfect results, but it is better than them not being allowed out at all. It has a good extension lead that I intend to get in time as well, giving a possible 80ft of flight space! Here is a link to it :-

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=56112&goto=newpost

If anyone has any comments or experience with harnesses I would be interested to hear.


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## BHenderson

A little information that may be of use to others. With my pigeon initially being fussy about food, I had to find a site that stocked the one thing he seemed to take interest in, Red Dari. I found the site :-

www.junglegold.com

I like this site and I am going to go back to it regularly. There are so many different seed and food types on this site, I have never seen such a mix on one site. As well as the 5kg of Red Dari, I got 3 Wild bird seed mixes that I liked the look of, and as it happened worked out well. These 3 mixes have so many different foods in them that when I put them down for my pigeon friend he spends a lot of time looking through the different seeds. I think these mixes have helped increase his food intake. I would estimate that he is eating about three times as much as he was eating at the beginning.
The 3 mixes are :-

http://www.junglegold.com/wild-bird-perfection-feeder-mix-p-244.html
http://www.junglegold.com/wild-bird-perfection-original-p-243.html
http://www.junglegold.com/wild-bird-perfection-table-mix-p-245.html

These mixes are too expensive to buy in bulk for the pigeons outside, but for my little friend they were a great boon. He spends a lot of time picking through different things he likes.
I am also looking for the best bulk sack of pigeon feed, as I want to find the cheapest way to feed the most birds. I don't think you can beat the 2 loaves of brown sliced bread for under a pound, but I want to find cheap sacks of bird seed to supplement the brown bread. Junglegold does not seem to have sacks of cheap bird seed so I got a sack from the same place I got the cage :-

http://shop.robharvey.com/winter-blend---72-c.asp

I brought a 20kg sack for less than 13 pounds. You have to add postage of course, but if you buy several sacks it becomes very worth while. I found this mix to be pretty good for the money. It even has some small peanuts in it. My pigeon also enjoys this mix, so all together he has five regular things to eat. The 3 mixes, the bulk seed mix and the Red Dari. I also supplement this with chopped up carrot and spinach and apple. I am looking for other things to try all the time. I might try him on the egg biscuits?
If anyone has experience with buying other bulk seed mixes for a good price, I would be interested to hear?

Brian.

P.s. Has anyone ever noticed there is a pleasant smell that comes of baby pigeons. For ages I have been convinced that something in my house has been washed in a different washing powder that has a pleasant smell. After all this time I think I have located this smell, its the pigeon. Maybe baby pigeons have a pleasant smell like baby humans have a pleasant smell? Does anyone else know what I am talking about?


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

Interesting site, thanks for posting that.
I'm lucky enough to be able to buy pigeon mixes from a supplier about 30 minutes drive away but I would still quite like to get it delivered as it's so heavy I have trouble getting it into the house! so will look into some of these mixes.

I mix together a conditioning mix that has a lot of smaller seeds including aniseed is part of it and another bag that's called Young Bird Pop, not sure to be honest exactly what's in it all but tends to have larger seeds like maize, peas and popcorn.
My birds tend to eat all the conditioning mix first and then if I leave the other seeds with them for another day they get fed up and eat those!!! Far too spoilt!

My little Dusty has a round brown seed that he goes mad for that's in the conditioning mix, must be his equivalent to your 'Little Friends' Red Dari. Funny really that they have favourites as they seem to eat them so fast you can't imagine they love it as a result if the taste!!!
Mind you I always used to say that about my dog. If given a piece of steak as a treat, it wouldn't touch the sides of his mouth, so I wondered why he liked it so much!!

Jayne, (Pigeon Queen) I think orders large bags of seeds that she has delivered. I'll send her a message to ask her in case she doesn't see your query on here.

Janet


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## spirit wings

Someone who puts so much care and thought into his pigeon friend as you do..what do you think a pigeon would do if they actually had or understood the choice of staying with that or going out on the street.... lets see the choices..hmmm...go out in the wild to have to seek food and find a shelter to roost in that is not wet or too windy...or there with you with a buffet of grains and washing powders and warmth and care... I know what I would pick...lol..


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## amyable

BHenderson said:


> P.s. Has anyone ever noticed there is a pleasant smell that comes of baby pigeons. For ages I have been convinced that something in my house has been washed in a different washing powder that has a pleasant smell. After all this time I think I have located this smell, its the pigeon. Maybe baby pigeons have a pleasant smell like baby humans have a pleasant smell? Does anyone else know what I am talking about?


Oh I do know what you mean. I have Dusty on my shoulder and I keep turning my head and nuzzling my nose into his feathers, I just love the smell. 

I do the same with my dog aswell, only he's not on my shoulder! Not such a sweet smell but there's something very comforting and homely about it, (well apart from today when he'd rolled in something in the garden). 

I like what Spirit Wings has said, put like that.....Hmmmm no choice!

Janet


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## BHenderson

I do understand what spirit wings is saying, and I know what I would do if the choice was given to me, but I do not think it is as simple as that. We know what is best in terms of the comfort of the birds life, but is the bird able to understand things like tomorrow not being as comfortable as today.
I think my little friend looks outside and sees the other birds fly off and knows that he cannot do the same. You hear many stories from zoos about animals that have very comfortable lives, but slowly deteriorate due to some kind of pining? Even the keepers are not always sure what is wrong with the animal, but we can be certain that the animal is living a life that is not natural for it.

As a for instance of this, it is apparently very difficult to capture a wild rabbit and put it in a cage and expect it to become domesticated. They often die for no apparent reason, but most people think it is because the animal pines for its freedom and cannot get used to being cooped up.

On the other hand, I have started to notice a change in my little friend, he is not so keen to get out the garden door these days and tends to stand back and watch as I put the food out for the other pigeons. He still likes to eat the same food at the same time and watch them through the glass. He is starting to show signs of enjoying his life here and I will see where this goes. If it looks like he is adapting to this life, and in view of the difficulty I am having trying to return him to the wild, I think I am likely to keep him. I will try to allow him as much freedom as I can though, and I like the idea of things like the harness that allows him to go up to 80ft away on an elasticated rope. It may not work, but I want to see if it will. It seems to work for a friend of mine who takes her pigeon out for exercise. I don't think she uses it to allow her pigeon to mix with others though, that may be a step too far. As I have said, with all these things, we will see how things develop. I am much happier with the way things are developing now than when I saw him bashing himself up against the door trying to go out with the other pigeons. He seems to have stopped doing that hopefully.

I appreciate peoples words and you have helped me feel more comfortable with the idea of keeping him, I don't feel I am doing it against his will so much now.

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Well, I have good news to report, I new he was eating much better!

He is up to 240grams, a gain of almost 40 grams in just a couple of weeks!

I also have a name for him, Little Squeaker. What do you think, I know its probably a common name because they all squeak when they are babies, but I am so endeared by his little whistle/squeak that I think its an appropriate name. I started calling him it without thinking when I was trying to catch him to weigh him lol. Here little squeaker, come on now little squeaker lol.
Let me know what you think?

He does keep holding one of his feet up, not all the time and usually when he is settled, so it may just be the way he perches, but sometimes it seems he is holding it up when he is not perching. I tried to have a look at it when I weighed him, but I could not see anything wrong. Both his feet are hot, but I assume that is normal if he is in a warm room. When I first got him, his feet were always cold. I sometimes see him pecking at the foot he holds up, which makes me think it is uncomfortable for him in some way. His nails have grown quite long, do I need to think about cutting them?

Overall, I am really happy with his progress. He is much happier with me picking him up now, and soon goes over to see what food I have put out as a reward for letting me handle him. In the past he used to go and sulk for a couple of hours. I think he is more confident that I am not trying to hurt him now. I'm really pleased he has started to put on weight.

Brian.


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## Jay3

Great news that he is gaining weight.


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## amyable

Jay3 said:


> Great news that he is gaining weight.


Yes that's a massive gain, brilliant news.


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## BHenderson

I think its about time I started to investigate the rest of this site, I see other people are bringing in sick pigeons all the time and I am going to read these to gain experience. Don't worry, I won't make unqualified comments!, I know who the experts are lol.

I will only come back here if something happens and I think I need to ask for help, otherwise I cannot thank you all enough for your help. I am really pleased to be the guardian of a pigeon, something I have wanted for a while now. Thank you.


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## amyable

Hi Brian, yes it's very interesting to read all the new posts and it's amazing what you pick up from these that helps.
Please do pipe up if you see anything you can help with as you've got a lot of experience already and when a new member comes on with an emergency just a comment from someone so they know their post has been seen can make a big difference as to whether they stay on to find help for the bird in question.
You'd be surprised how much you know now that could help.
I too rely on a lot of advice from experts like Karyn when faced with an emergency myself so thank goodness we have such folks who are willing to give their time to help.

Do keep us posted as to how Little Squeaker is doing though!!

Like the name by the way,

Janet


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## BHenderson

You know I have jumped the gun a bit here, I do have a little matter to ask about.

He is holding that leg up, not just when he is perched up for the night. He was just having a little fly around, and almost as soon as he lands he is pulling that foot up. When I was weighing him earlier I could not see anything wrong with the leg. Both his legs were quite hot as well, so I don't think its a circulation related problem. I will catch him again tomorrow and have a look for a little strand of hair. Unfortunately I do have long hair, and squeakers curiosity means he gets into places that may have some hair about, he may have a bit round his leg.
Other than that, His nails are long enough to scratch me now, what do other people do? do they need periodic cutting back. I read that you have to be careful because like cats they have a blood flow into the nail, but his are getting really long now. It may be uncomfortable for him, although I would expect this to affect both legs?

He's so funny, I have left the gate of the cage open, and because there is a bowl of food in there he cant help himself and has gone in. The thing is, he has had lots to eat already, so he is not hungry. He is just throwing the whole bowl of food all over the cage. its so funny to watch.


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## Quazar

Brian, I wouldnt unduly worry about the leg if he is walking on it normally without limping.
They do often just rest on one leg, even when not roosting.
Charlie, my rescue with the bad wing, does it all the time, sometimes even with it raised only a few mm off the ground, other times its half raised and curled toes. Normally they'll only do that when they feel comfortable enough to relax.
As far as his nails go, Get a couple of plain ordinary builders bricks for him to perch on in his usual spots. That usually is enough to keep the nails worn down, or you could file them gently with an emery board, but he may not like that and sulk again lol.


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## BHenderson

Thank you Quazar I'm glad its not some problem that I just can't see for some reason.

Bricks have been mentioned a few times, so I will get some and see if he can wear his nails down himself before I try and file them down. I'm sure I will be able to find a couple of old ones somewhere.


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## spirit wings

BHenderson said:


> I do understand what spirit wings is saying, and I know what I would do if the choice was given to me, but I do not think it is as simple as that. We know what is best in terms of the comfort of the birds life, but is the bird able to understand things like tomorrow not being as comfortable as today.
> I think my little friend looks outside and sees the other birds fly off and knows that he cannot do the same. You hear many stories from zoos about animals that have very comfortable lives, but slowly deteriorate due to some kind of pining? Even the keepers are not always sure what is wrong with the animal, but we can be certain that the animal is living a life that is not natural for it.
> 
> As a for instance of this, it is apparently very difficult to capture a wild rabbit and put it in a cage and expect it to become domesticated. They often die for no apparent reason, but most people think it is because the animal pines for its freedom and cannot get used to being cooped up.
> 
> On the other hand, I have started to notice a change in my little friend, he is not so keen to get out the garden door these days and tends to stand back and watch as I put the food out for the other pigeons. He still likes to eat the same food at the same time and watch them through the glass. He is starting to show signs of enjoying his life here and I will see where this goes. If it looks like he is adapting to this life, and in view of the difficulty I am having trying to return him to the wild, I think I am likely to keep him. I will try to allow him as much freedom as I can though, and I like the idea of things like the harness that allows him to go up to 80ft away on an elasticated rope. It may not work, but I want to see if it will. It seems to work for a friend of mine who takes her pigeon out for exercise. I don't think she uses it to allow her pigeon to mix with others though, that may be a step too far. As I have said, with all these things, we will see how things develop. I am much happier with the way things are developing now than when I saw him bashing himself up against the door trying to go out with the other pigeons. He seems to have stopped doing that hopefully.
> 
> I appreciate peoples words and you have helped me feel more comfortable with the idea of keeping him, I don't feel I am doing it against his will so much now.
> 
> Brian.


well to me FERAL means " Having returned to an untamed state from domestication." If they can do that...then why can't they be domestic again? where would they live a longer healthier life?answer: in a domestic situation..they can't make their own choices so sometimes we have to make it for them.. just like a found feral kitten.. I would not return a kitten to be feral again. AND I would not go let all MY pigeons loose someplace, I don't see any difference in mine and yours.
I do think that true wild undomesticated birds/mammals should be returned if they are healthy enough.


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## Jay3

All depends. Most ferals you get, if gotten as adults do not tame up very well. They just do not like people or being confined. Where a young one adjusts pretty well The younger the better. If older, and just too wild to be happy as an owned bird, then I don't think it's fair to keep him unless absolutely necessary. But if young enough to adjust and be happy, then keeping a bird isn't mean. But I also feel that if kept, that it should also be given a mate for company, if possible, as it just isn't natural for the bird not to have another bird as a companion.


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## spirit wings

Jay3 said:


> All depends. Most ferals you get, if gotten as adults do not tame up very well. They just do not like people or being confined. Where a young one adjusts pretty well The younger the better. If older, and just too wild to be happy as an owned bird, then I don't think it's fair to keep him unless absolutely necessary. But if young enough to adjust and be happy, then keeping a bird isn't mean. But I also feel that if kept, that it should also be given a mate for company, if possible, as it just isn't natural for the bird not to have another bird as a companion.


I had the understanding these were baby pigeons.


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## Jay3

I believe it is a young pigeon. I was talking about pigeons in general. That's why I said that young birds normally adjust well. And babies don't know any difference, so they do great.


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## BHenderson

I suppose the main thing for me, all the philosophising apart, is if I can tell the bird is reasonably happy. At first there was 2 pigeons, but one was much sicker than the other. They were both huddled on my porch together. Once the stronger one was well and started to bang himself against the garden door, I let him go. I saw him feeding with the other pigeons outside for several days and he seemed to be doing ok. The other pigeon was much weaker, he had a gut infection which I treated with the generous help of Karyn.

Once the remaining pigeon was well, he started to try to escape and was pining for contact with the pigeons that congregate regularly in my garden for feeding. I felt guilty, but I new he was still too ill to be released, and to release him would mean his death. As time went on he has started showing signs of not being so keen to leave. He has started enjoying his food, and comes over to see me often and is slowly getting closer to me. This makes me feel he is happy being here and is not desperate to leave. Under these conditions I am happy for him to be here, I like his company and he seems to be getting used to me.
The only thing about this arrangement that might still bother me is the lack of activity for him. he cannot permanently live in this one room flat, have a little fly about, have something to eat, interact with me a bit and go to sleep. He will surely get bored of this after a bit of time, so the one thing I feel obliged to do is try to provide a more interesting life for him. As has often been noted they are intelligent animals and will surely get bored if life is too much of a routine.
What has been said about companionship is the most important and I will soon start looking for a companion for him. I need to sex him really, although I may be able to tell when I take him out with the harness on. I will see how things develop.
If at any point in the future he started to show signs of not being happy here, then I would embark on a journey of trying to provide him with a more natural lifestyle, even if he became too domesticated to leave. I have heard one or two stories of birds plucking their own feathers out from what I would consider obvious frustration at their quality of life. Such a thing would be agony for me as well as the Squeaker if it were to occur. Lets hope for a happy and settled future.

Brian.


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## spirit wings

Jay3 said:


> I believe it is a young pigeon. I was talking about pigeons in general. That's why I said that young birds normally adjust well. And babies don't know any difference, so they do great.


That is not new news to me...lol..


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## BHenderson

I have noticed that Squeaker is eating an awful lot of food. Obviously at the moment he is just trying to put on the weight that is missing, but do I need to watch that he does not get into bad habits? I'm thinking in particular of boredom eating. Do I have to watch that he does not become obese?

Brian.


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## spirit wings

BHenderson said:


> I have noticed that Squeaker is eating an awful lot of food. Obviously at the moment he is just trying to put on the weight that is missing, but do I need to watch that he does not get into bad habits? I'm thinking in particular of boredom eating. Do I have to watch that he does not become obese?
> 
> Brian.


young birds should eat all they want, if it is the right food for him.


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## Dobato

Brian, I have been following your thread, and if I may comment, it seems things are going quite well for Little Squeaker and if in the end it turns out it's best for him to remain with you, then so be it. Your one room flat is all he knows and is not much different than from how most pigeons are kept, which is in a one room space, a good many not as large I am sure as your flat is to exercise in. To him you place is "home" as he has never known a feral life. I wouldn't worry too much at this point for the company of another pigeon for him, as if he does stay with you, with you now tuned into the pigeon rescue world, there will be another bird that will come to you that needs help or perhaps another UK member who has helped a bird, that for reasons can't be released, will need a permanent home for a bird, which you could take. Just take it a day at a time right now, let's get him in top weight and physical condition and see where things lay.

Karyn


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## amyable

[*QUOTE=Dobato;619674] there will be another bird that will come to you that needs help or perhaps another UK member who has helped a bird, that for reasons can't be released, will need a permanent home for a bird, which you could take.* Just take it a day at a time right now, let's get him in top weight and physical condition and see where things lay.

Karyn[/QUOTE]

That's a good point. It can sometimes be hard to place an unreleasable bird and it would be a real gift if you were able to offer such a bird a home.
I feel things come about for a reason and a bird will come along I'm sure whether it be via your looking out or another source. It will give you the time to see if Little Squeaker wants to stay or go long term.

Janet


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## BHenderson

I'm actually quite happy with things at the moment. Me and Squeaker are getting on famously lol. He knows exactly what to do to get me to feed him. I sometimes wonder who is in charge lol.

I'm quite happy to wait and see how things turn out.

Brian.


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## amyable

BHenderson said:


> I sometimes wonder who is in charge lol.


Definitely not you.


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## BHenderson

Squeaker spends much more time talking to me these days, and recently I have started to notice his squeak is becoming a bit rougher. In the mornings before I get up, when he is taking to the pigeons in the garden, I can hear the beginnings of cooing. Could it be his squeak is breaking into a coo? like a teenagers voice becomes deeper as he moves to adulthood. Or is it possible he has a bit of a cough? I have heard people talk of pigeons getting coughs, but I have no idea how you tell?

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

I'd say you're right and his voice is breaking.
It worried me silly the first time I had a bird do that. At the time I'd had this rescued squeaker for only a week and was going away on holiday, didn't want to put her in with my other birds straight away, so had a friend keep her for the two weeks.
When I first got her back she was making this terrible coughing/barking sound and I thought she'd caught some terrible respiratory infection.
Turned out it was just her voice changing.

My little friend Dusty is doing that ATM and he's also starting to try and bow and chat up his sister. He sounds so funny and the others look at him as if he's gone mad.
Looks like you may have to find a new name soon for Squeaker!!

Janet


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## BHenderson

A new name and a companion, if he is maturing. He may need a companion sooner than I thought.

If I assume he has left his nest say a week or less before I found him, then he would be about 2 months old. Considering they live 15 odd years, he cannot be maturing yet surely. I need to do a bit of reading on the life cycle of the pigeon lol.

How old is Dusty? I can take his age as a benchmark!


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## Quazar

Most only live to that age in a domestic situation.
In the wild, their lifespan is drastically reduced.
Their "squeaking" does change into a sort of deep "quack" first, then general softer "coo".
His behaviour will probably change too, he'll probably get a bit more rebellious and adventurous but will normally gradually settle down again. 
I had one (Cheeky) who in his early weeks would love to sit on pc, my hand, shoulder, & generally liked to be petted etc. When he got a bit older, he would still fly over & sit beside me or on me, and loved to get offered titbits that he would take from my fingers, or get his neck scratched, but as soon as I tried to physically pick him up he was off.


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## BHenderson

I'm not able to pick Squeaker up at all without first catching him, but I know what you mean. The things you describe could well be happening. I took a lot of the changes in his behaviour to be signs of him feeling more at home. He is also coming over to me more and more and getting closer and closer. When I have the quilt over me he will land on the quilt quite close to me, but if I put my hand out he is off. 
When I have caught sick pigeons in the past, I hold them and stroke them from the top of their head all the way down their back, but just with two fingers. Even though they are frightened, they often would fall asleep when I did this, or went into some kind of hypnotic state? I would like to do this to squeaker, but unless I need to catch him, I would like to wait and see if he eventually comes to me of his own accord. Do you think I am wasting my time?

As I said above, if he is not far from sexual maturity, then I am going to have to think of company for him sooner than I thought.


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## Quazar

With any animal, its time, patience & trust.
With Pigeons everything is on their terms. Some will come to you for food, or when THEY want company and are happy to accept handling but still not like it.
My rescue with the injured wing (Charlie) tries to run away from my hand if I put it too close, but when he wants to get somewhere he cant, he'll coo, stamp his feet & flap his wings & look where hes trying to go, when I put my hand out to him, he'll happilly step on it so I can transport him and If I go the wrong way he pecks like mad lol. (If by chance I ignore him he just wont shut up)


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## Jay3

Quazar said:


> With any animal, its time, patience & trust.
> With Pigeons everything is on their terms. Some will come to you for food, or when THEY want company and are happy to accept handling but still not like it.
> My rescue with the injured wing (Charlie) tries to run away from my hand if I put it too close,* but when he wants to get somewhere he cant, he'll coo, stamp his feet & flap his wings & look where hes trying to go, when I put my hand out to him, he'll happilly step on it so I can transport him and If I go the wrong way he pecks like mad lol. (If by chance I ignore him he just wont shut up)*





Awww, that's cute. I can just see him stamping his feet, and hopping up to be transported. LOL.


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## BHenderson

That does sound ever so cute... I can just imagine. This is the sort of behaviour that makes pigeons such good pets.

What you say is what I expected to hear though, patience is a virtue as the saying goes. Hopefully in the fullness of time we will become closer. I am happy to wait. I know he is testing me a little more each day to see what I will do.


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## amyable

BHenderson said:


> How old is Dusty? I can take his age as a benchmark!


Just checked back and Dusty was born 5th July. So he''s nearly 16weeks now.

I don't know if it would affect the normal development times but as he went through quite a sick period some of his abilities got put back, ie: his self feeding took ages to come and he's only just started to fly.
So based on that not sure if his maturity would have been put back a bit.

He's also a funny little character as far as being picked up goes. During the time I was tube feeding and pellet popping by hand he hated being handled. Now he's started to get integrated with the adults outside he's very eager to come onto my shoulder as he knows he'll get some extra treats by sucking up to me. My others don't like being picked up at all.
They'll put up with me being around but as soon as my hands appear, they're off.
I put it down to the fact that many of them came to me sick or injured and had to be medicated or have wounds bathed so they see my hands as the enemy. 
Dusty will happily sit on my shoulder but doesn't like just being held either.

Janet


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## BHenderson

Thanks for the info Janet, I think pigeons may vary a bit on when they mature.

Squeakers voice has changed so fast, yesterday he had a broken squeak, today he is making proper pigeon cooing noises at me. He seems to have learnt how to coo very quick. I think the change in his voice forces him to coo instead of squeak.
He is feeling a little off colour, he was flying about this morning and seemed ok, but this afternoon he has spent much more time than usual resting. He is not even coming down if I put some new food in his dish. I think he is feeling the rapid changes in his body. He does not look unwell, but I get the feeling his cooing at me earlier was him saying 'leave me alone, I dont feel myself'
I hope he is feeling better tomorrow.

Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, as you mention, probably nothing to worry about, but with these guys one of the first warnings, when not feeling well you will get, will be a change in their droppings. So if at anytime you do suddenly see less droppings or they do not look as they usually do, such as little solid content, watery or messy looking, this will be a red flag that something most likely is going on with him. Hope he's back to his usual self in the morning.

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Yes Thank you Karyn, I do watch his droppings. I can usually tell very quick if anything is wrong because he has regular places where he perches, so I only have to look there to see if there is anything different.
At the moment, the main difference is the amount of dropping. His droppings are small squiggy balls sometimes with a bit of white, but there is lots of them because he is eating so much.
I think he is healthy, he looks good and alert, I just think he is having an off day. If he is changing into an adult, I'm sure that is what the problem is.
Like I said, I was very surprised to get a coo instead of a squeak out of him today. That changed really quick.

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Just thought I would let people know about the following deal. I got the following bag of seed from Amazon, the price includes next day delivery. I think its a pretty good deal, especially for anyone who wants home delivery. I am still on the lookout for better deals if anyone knows of any.

Here is mine :-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/20kg-of-wil...UTF8&coliid=I1F6SPXM6R31E4&colid=BZV745YE6JEE

Brian

P.s. Having just had a look, there does not appear to be as much of a mixture in the seed. It is mostly the little brown seed that makes up the bulk of these mixes. The previous bag was from Colonel's Bird Food, and seemed to have a better mixture of ingredients. I am still on the lookout for a better 20kg bag of seed. There are several on sale from Amazon, so I may try them out unless someone has a tip?


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## Jay3

Why not just add to that mix? Split peas, lentils, safflower, popcorn or cracked corn, brown rice, barley, hemp which you can buy online.


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## BHenderson

I will look into the cost of extra seed, it may be a good idea. I am trying to feed as many as I can with as little money, so the money that is available can feed more pigeons. I have a regular flock of about 15-20 and I sometimes feed little groups in the streets, especially if they look hungry.

I fed a little regular group in the high street today. I can still see some little babies there, perhaps a few days out of the nest. I am looking for a companion for Squeaker, and some of the babies looked so cold and wet(they were shivering), I was tempted to just grab one and take it home. It could all go wrong though, my slightly older Squeaker might bully the younger bird. Can anyone advise me on what is likely to happen if I bring another baby home?

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

It's hard to say for definite how they will react. Just from experience I've had recently I wouldn't guarantee they would hit it off just because they're both pigeons.
I took in a youngster a couple of weeks ago that had fallen down a chimney. At a guess is the same age as Dusty near enough. Now you'd think he/she would be wary about suddenly being put with other pigeons but NO!
Sooty, as I've called 'it' is very aggressive and domineering and from day one went in for the attack, seeing off any of the birds if they dare to come near or dare to want to eat when she is doing so.
Although she's come here as a youngster, I can't see her becoming even the slightest bit tame as none of my others are and I'm wondering if I should have let the lady who found her take her, as was first suggested to be released into an open aviary set up.
I didn't want that as she's sort of a fancy and also predominantly white, so would stand out to preditors.
Anyway, back to your query. In some ways it would be better if the bird you have is fully able just in case they did need to be released at some point for whatever reason. However, it seems a shame to take one in if it's fit and able to live it's life in captivity when there are always pigeons that need a place to call home after being sick or injured.
I know of one at present but it's 'up North', so too far away for you, but I'm sure a needy bird will crop up whose life will be saved only if a home can be found.
I do understand you wanting to get a friend for Squeaker but I don't know if it's kind or not to take one in that's not in need of help.
Maybe someone else will have an opinion, don't want to seem like a 'damp squid'!!

Janet


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## Jay3

You don't seem like a "damp squid" at all. LOL. I think most agree that if a bird is living in the wild, and quite capable, then he or she should be able to remain free. 

Just grabbing a young bird is not really a great idea I don't think anyway, as you really don't know what you are grabbing. If your bird is a male, and you grab a male, then eventually they probably won't get along. But two hens usually get on better. Then keeping them separate until the other is older is a good idea. After having the bird a while, and then finally realizing that you have gotten a male, when you wanted a female, now you would probably not want the bird, and would have to go through the soft release with it, and it wouldn't have had as much time with the parents and flock to teach it all that it needs to know. You aren't even sure whether you already have a male or a female. I would wait and be fairly sure before getting another bird. Then trying to find one that already is in need of a home would be nice. They come up all the time. It's nice to be giving a home to a bird that for whatever reason is not releasable.


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## BHenderson

I agree I should be patient and wait, but I am aware that Squeaker does not have much variation in his life. I often work on the computer through the night and sleep a good deal of the day, so Squeaker does not have that much company from me(I woke up to Squeaker pecking my feet the other day, I think he was trying to wake me because he was bored poor fellow). He is awake often very late because that is when I am up, I am not teaching him good habits.

I also am not interested in taking a healthy pigeon in. The reason I was considering taking one of the babies I saw is because they looked right on the edge. We are having the first cold rain and they were wet and looked cold and thin. I know in these conditions they can suddenly just become too weak to cope. They have to compete with a lot of other pigeons in that area and most people who do feed them do not feed small seed that the babies can eat. I often see them trying to eat things that are too big for them and they end up begging at the mouths of the adults because they cannot eat the food that is available. The cleaners and guards do their best to put people off from feeding the pigeons as well. I am going to make an effort to go back to that area and feed them for the next few days and keep an eye on the babies. It is one of the only areas I still see babies this late in the year. There is a derelict house near by that they live in, but I dont know how much longer it will be derelict.

I do understand where you are coming from Janet when the weaker pigeon seems to be the aggressor. Squeaker was actually the more aggressive of the two pigeons that I took in. He would peck the other guy if he tried to feed at the same time. I tried to cure this by having two feeding points, but I think pigeons like to eat together. In the end I think this may have been why the other fellow was so keen to leave, he felt bullied. He was in fact the stronger pigeon so I was not so worried about letting him go. I think it will be very difficult if I get two pigeons that do not get on, I only have one main room and even if I can divide it for a while at the beginning to give them a chance to be introduced slowly, it will be difficult to keep the division going.

Ideally it would be good if I could take a pigeon that needs a home, and if things do not work out maybe I could find someone else who has two pigeons that are not getting on and we could swap. I am going to try and get the harness in about two weeks and I am hoping this will also provide him with a chance to go into my garden, although I am aware that if he is not comfortable with the harness on he may not feel safe enough to venture into the garden. Time will tell.

I think there is a section I saw on this site that is for people looking for homes for pigeons, I will start to look around there. I think maybe I should invest in a DNA sexing test before I take a pigeon. If the estimate that I have been given is right (about 40 dollars) it may not be too expensive.

Brian.

P.s. The possibility of taking a pigeon did come up recently, but the pigeon had had PMV and needed daily hand feeding. I am up for the daily feeding, but I am concerned that Squeaker would bully such a weak pigeon. What do you think?

P.p.s. That pleasant smell I spoke of before is definitely coming from Squeaker. Janet is the only one to say she knows what I mean. I find it hard to believe but baby pigeons definitely have a pleasant smell that comes off them when they fly by. I have grown quite addicted to it. If only he would let me handle him, I would spend all day sniffing his feathers LOL.


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## amyable

P.s. The possibility of taking a pigeon did come up recently said:


> Now Dusty is getting used to living outside, I occasionally bring him to sit on my shoulder as I really miss having a sniff!!


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## Quazar

BHenderson said:


> I agree I should be patient and wait, but I am aware that Squeaker does not have much variation in his life. I often work on the computer through the night and sleep a good deal of the day, so Squeaker does not have that much company from me(I woke up to Squeaker pecking my feet the other day, I think he was trying to wake me because he was bored poor fellow). He is awake often very late because that is when I am up, I am not teaching him good habits.


Brian, you would be surprised how content they become with what theyve got, although not as much "excitement" as when thy are free, they are just as curious & explorative indoors as they would be outdoors but have the added security against predators.
My rescue Cheeky that I mentioned before was always exploring & getting into places, & another, Blackie, was exactly the same. The two current ones, Tiny & Charlie are no different. Even though Charlie cant fly, he still gets into and up to places that never cease to amaze me lol.
Because of various work shifts, Like you, I am awake and on PC at various stupid o'clock times, and I dont think it really does them any harm as long as they have somewhere darker & quiet they can go to rest when they want.
Cheeky used to let me know when he wanted to go to bed, If tv or light was annoying him he'd sit in his box & make noises till I turned tv down or switched main light off, and now Charlie has started to do the same.


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## BHenderson

Thanks Quazar that is reassuring to hear that from you. I am worried that because he spends a lot of time perched up on the door or the curtain rail or one of his other places he is really bored and I feel guilty. I suppose I might be projecting a bit here, thinking of the times I was bored and how terrible it was.
Its the other thing you said though, that they investigate stuff and get into stuff all the time. Squeaker is doing that, and is very active in the morning. He also practices a sort of hovering as a way of stretching his wings. He does seem very excited sometimes so he cannot be that unhappy. He sometimes chirps at me, and I wonder what he is chirping about, so I talk to him and he seems to like that.
He is getting very confident around me now and comes very close as long as I dont look like I'm going to pick him up, then he runs away.
I do hope he isn't bored. I try to treat him and give him his favourite food at least once a day. And as I have mentioned, if he takes to the harness, I will be able to let him go out in the garden.

Your words are reassuring though Quazar, and I thank you for them.

Brian.


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## boneyrajan.k

Thanks buddy


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## BHenderson

Hi all,

Just some comments really, an update.

Squeakers started pulling tiny feathers out all over the place. I assume he is molting into his adult feathers? I bet it gets worse before it gets better.

Also he has started making a fuss over his reflection in the various mirrors I have left lying around. He is cooing and bowing at the reflection and trying to peck it lol. He is also becoming friendlier and more settled, which is very pleasing for me to see. He is doing a lot of hovering and flapping his wings vigorously and blowing my paperwork all over the place, I assume this is his way of getting some exercise lol.

I hope to have his harness soon so he can go out and exercise.

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

I sympathise with you over the small feathers coming out. Seems like Squeaker's doing all the same things Dusty does. He was terrible for ages with how much dander and tiny feathers he was shedding and he seemed to get very agitated and pecked at them all the time. The trouble is when he helicoptered around he'd spread all the feathers all over the place.

I wonder if Squeaker's starting to show 'his' gender now. I'm sure I've heard folks say that males tend to take more notice of the reflection in the mirror.
I can never tell early on whether they're male or female as they all seem to bow and coo, but if 'he's doing it to his reflection, then maybe it's a he after all.
Does he let you handle him any easier yet? It may not be possible as you didn't rear him but I find with Dusty, as he'd got used to me when I was tube feeding, he now likes to burrow his beak inbetween my fingers as if he's feeding, and then likes me to scratch his head and neck. I'm fairy sure Dusty's a 'he' aswell but still waiting for more signs.

So glad Squeaker seems to be getting more settled as time goes on.

Janet

Harness on order then?


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## BHenderson

Hi Janet,

Yes I do think the way he coos and bows in front of the mirror is sort of aggressive, so maybe he is a male. I will have to look for a few more signs before I decide I think. As you said I hope it will show the older he gets.

He is getting very upperty and even aggressive lately. I put a fresh bag of food I got for him on the floor, so he could eat straight out of the bag for a treat. Before I had even placed this bag on the floor he had decided it was his and was wing slapping me before I could get it open properly lol.

On the other hand he is showing some signs of being more at home. When I open the garden door to feed the other pigeons he flies to the other side of the room. He sees the scrum that forms with the hungry birds and decides he knows where he wants to be lol.

He comes over to me quite a lot. At night he flies onto the bed when he sees I have stopped moving. He likes soft things and knows my bed is the softest thing to lay on. I was hoping he would start perching on the bricks I have put around the room, so he would wear down those nails. He is growing quite a set of talons now. 
Each time he comes over he comes closer to me, like he is testing me, but he does not like being picked up. If I do pick him up he struggles like a baby that wants to be put down, that's when those talons become dangerous lol.
When I think about it, I probably wouldn't like to be picked up either. He is more accepting of me picking him up as a necessary evil, but I hope he will make less fuss when I put him into the harness on a regular basis. He will come to appreciate that putting the harness on means he is going to go outside in the garden.

If all goes to plan I hope to order the harness on Friday, I will leave the extension until I decide if he is ever going to go that far.

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian, That all sounds so positive, he's maturing well it's hard to think how poorly he seemed a while ago. Brilliant work on your part.

You know it certainly works by the sounds of it when you let things come about naturally on his terms. I'm looking forward to seeing how he reacts to the harness. Interesting that he goes the other way when you were feeding the masses, a clever bird, know which side his breads buttered on so they say!!

Janet


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## BHenderson

Hi all,

I have made a mistake with the vitamin solution that I brought for Squeaker, I dont know if anyone would like to make a suggestion?
I brought something called 'Black Magic'. I take vitamins myself and I knew that the extra things in 'Black Magic' were important to a growing pigeon. Because its made of molasses I thought it would be taken as a sweet, but Squeaker only drinks from the clean water(and insists on drinking from a tall glass I left out one night!).

I need to find another vitamin solution for him, something that does not change the colour of the water. I would prefer one that has minerals and amino acids in as well, I know these things are especially important for a growing bird. D3 is also essential. On the surface all the vitamin products look much the same, but like human vitamins, there are better quality vitamins that are better absorbed. I would prefer to pay a little more and have a vitamin that actually works. So if anyone can bring their personal experience to bear and let me know what they use and recommend, I would be grateful.

Brian.


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## Dobato

Brian, I thought some time ago we discussed vitamins and you were going to order in some liquid ones from a site you posted and I made a suggestion as to might might work:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=612373&postcount=111

Karyn


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## BHenderson

Hi Karyn,

The Bogena small bird vitamins is a good buy, and it is clear so would not be noticed in the water hopefully. I was comparing the cheap bird vitamins to cheap human vitamins. If you pay a little more money you can get a better absorbed product, plus it has the other trace elements and amino acids that a bird kept inside on a simple diet may be missing.
I may buy a bottle of the Bogena, but I would also like to get one of the mixtures that are on various sites that have a better mix of nutrients. The sort of mixtures that are prepared for racing pigeons or breeding pigeons. It cant hurt to give him the best.
The thing is there are a lot of different mixtures and I was hoping someone would make a suggestion of one they have used and found good.

Thanks in advance,
Brian.


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## BHenderson

Hi All, after looking over the vast range of vitamin supplements for birds, I have picked one. I'll let you know more about it when it arrives. It has 'rapid absorb' minerals, which I assume is the same as chelated minerals for humans. It also has the prebiotics and probiotics, which are being increasingly recognised as important for humans as well as animals. It claims to still leave the water clear, although I find that hard to believe with the bacteria in it, but we shall see when it arrives.

I have begun to notice what a terrible time of year this is for baby pigeons. Any being born this late in the year have the added difficulty of the wet and sometimes cold weather. We have been lucky here in UK at the moment because winter would normally have started by now, but we still have relatively warm weather. I thought the pigeons had pretty much stopped having babies by now, but I have noticed some new babies appearing recently. The problem for them is, although it is not that cold yet, it is wet. The babies are getting wet and therefore cold and are finding it difficult to stay with the flock.
I have had a little baby on my garden porch today, he was all fluffed up and just sitting on his own. I opened the door slowly and sprinkled a little of Squeakers favourite food on the floor. He came over and started picking at it in that way that babies do, picking some seeds up and eating them and dropping others. Surprisingly he hopped up on the door and came in to start eating the food that was in Squeakers feeding area. I thought squeaker would get the hump about this, but he was curious. Squeaker and I sat back and allowed the little fellow to eat what he wanted. Maybe it was because he could see Squeaker that he thought it was safe to come in, but pigeons do not normally come in unless I am feeding them by hand, something I have stopped doing since I have had Squeaker as I am worried that Squeaker will go out while the others are coming in.
Squeaker was very curious, he does not get any contact with other pigeons, and he moved over to have a closer look. I got nervous at this point as Squeaker was very close to the door, and although I dont think he will fly away, I dont want to take the risk. I moved forward to close the door, hopefully behind the baby, but he hoped out and flew up to the wall. This is the problem with baby pigeons that are not feeling well, you have to wait until they become completely ill before you stand any chance of catching them. The chances of then being able to nurse them back to health is greatly reduced. The obvious solution would be to invest in a net. There are some good ones for about £45 and they would increase my chances of catching the sick pigeons.

I have also noticed in the little group in the main street, the babies were all wet after the heavy rain over night. Unfortunately the babies must be at the bottom of the picking order and therefore end up in the worst spots in the derelict house where they most of them live. They end up on the outside of the building where they then get wet and the following morning some of them looked cold. But they still did not look ill, so I have not tried to catch them. Many of the babies I never see again. I'm not sure if this is because they are ill and die or if they fly away to other places.
Just as a side note, a funny thing happened the other day when I went to feed the pigeons in the high street. One of the babies new something exciting was happening when I approached as he could see all the other pigeons getting excited. He had not quite understood what was exciting though. As I poured the food out of the bags and the other pigeons dived in, this little baby just kept chasing and trying to grab the bag not the food. It was so funny, the poor little mite really thought he had something good lol. He looked so disappointed when I took the bag away.

I have ordered the harness for Squeaker, and I will try to make some videos of his progress with the harness.

Brian.


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## Jay3

Sounds very cute, the baby coming in and all. You mentioned that he was fluffed up. I understand your wanting him to eat, but I wouldn't let him eat my birds food, as if he is sick, your bird could get sick.


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## BHenderson

It is a point I should have borne in mind. The whole business of them fluffing up is not necessarily an indication of ilness is it? The baby that I thought was ill was sitting by itself in the porch, but when he was startled he flew away ok. He could just have been in need of a feed, and having had some food felt better. Anyway I will be careful about exposing Squeaker to illness.
By the way Squeaker also fluffs himself up sometimes, but it usually is when he is cleaning himself. He sometimes puts himself in some funny positions as well. He sometimes leans to one side and lets his wings flop out. Or he will walk about on a box he is trying to settle on with his feet tucked up by his body. It looks very odd, but I just considered it the idiosyncrasies of my pigeons personality?


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## Jay3

They fluff up to stay warm. You will see them do this when they are sleeping, or maybe after a bath while preening. But a sick pigeon can not easily keep himself warm, just as you or I will feel chilled when not feeling well. So when you see a fluffed bird, especially sitting by himself, not wanting to interact with the others, it is often a sign that the bird is not feeling all that well. Usually the first sign of illness that we may notice. I don't know that the bird was ill, I just wanted to remind you that it could have been. I wouldn't let any wild bird eat from my birds food. I understand why you did, but I would clean the area and change the feed out afterwards. Just easier to be safe than sorry.


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## Max1170

Jay, i see your still here. i will call you soon if your going to be around.....Max


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## Jay3

Max1170 said:


> Jay, i see your still here. i will call you soon if your going to be around.....Max



HI Max, great to hear from you. And yes, please call. Would love to talk to you.


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## BHenderson

Sqeaker has developed a nice shiny purple patch on his chest, and his bowing and cooing behavior has increased a lot. He even wakes up in the night and starts bowing and cooing on the curtain rail. I'm not sure who he is bowing and cooing to up there, but he usually does it a couple of times every night. He gets very excited about the birds outside, I hope the harness arrives soon as I want to let him mix with the other birds. He is obviously maturing, and I hope I can find a companion for him soon.
I was hoping the shiny purple patch on his chest might say once and for all if he is male, can anyone tell me?


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## Jay3

BHenderson said:


> Sqeaker has developed a nice shiny purple patch on his chest, and his bowing and cooing behavior has increased a lot. He even wakes up in the night and starts bowing and cooing on the curtain rail. I'm not sure who he is bowing and cooing to up there, but he usually does it a couple of times every night. He gets very excited about the birds outside, I hope the harness arrives soon as I want to let him mix with the other birds. He is obviously maturing, and I hope I can find a companion for him soon.
> *I was hoping the shiny purple patch on his chest might say once and for all if he is male, can anyone tell me?*


*
*


Both male and female show iridescence on the chest. Why not just look for a female pigeon? They should get along whether you have a male or a female.


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## BHenderson

I dont know why, but that little bit of logic passed me by. What a good idea. I have told Jayne(Pigeonqueen) that I will take one of her PMV pigeons when she has one that needs caring for, but that could be some time. In the meantime I will look around for a female pigeon looking for a home. I'm quite sure three is a good number, and one of them may never turn up.

Thanks for pointing that out Jay3, I just didn't think it through.


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## Jay3

Three may not be a good number if the first two pair up. Then a third one would be a "fifth wheel" so to speak. And would be entering a territory that the original two had already laid claim to. Sometimes groups work, but better to even out the numbers with these guys.


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## BHenderson

I will have to find out if pigeonqueen is expecting to get any more PMV pigeons. I thought as the PMV pigeon is likely to need feeding and is not going to be able to interact with the others properly, it would be OK to have three? I need to have a friend for my maturing pigeon. The harness arrived today, so I am going to let him outside with the others and see what happens. What do you think about 4 pigeons? do you think it will be possible for me to live in a bedsit with 4 pigeons? Its a big room, and there is a separate toilet/bathroom and Kitchen. Squeaker tends to keep to certain areas that he considers his and we get on fine, but I am a little worried about 4. Three does not seem to bad, but 4 is starting to look a crowd in my minds eye. What do you think? I do not have much practical experience to go on.


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## Jay3

Four looks like a crowd to me too. One or two pet pigeons is enough, I think. One pair would be good for everyone.


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## BHenderson

I agree with you. Unfortunately that means I will have to wait for Pigeonqueen to come up with a PMV pigeon. I promised to take one, so I dont want to let her down now. Unfortunately that means Squeaker will have to wait for his companion. Also I dont know if Squeaker will take to a pigeon that has PMV?


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## Jay3

Things change all the time, and I think Pigeonqueen would understand. You could be waiting a long time.


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## BHenderson

I am going to ask in the section here for people looking for pigeons. I am going to ask for a young female pigeon. Does anyone have any advice for me before I do this?

By the way I have the Aviator Harness now and I will make some videos right from the beginning. I do not have a good camera but at least it will allow others to see the harness being used. I am by no means certain that it will work, but it will all be in the videos providing I can get it in a good position to film.


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## amyable

Have just been catching up with your thread Brian as I'd been a bit tied up recently and had missed a bit.

Looking forward to see the harness in action, I hope it goes ok

Janet


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## BHenderson

Hi all,

I am delaying using the harness on Squeaker until I am confident about putting it on quick and without mistake. I am using a teddy bear to practice on. I will try and film the first time I try it for real.

I was wondering if anyone would like to offer some advice about Squeakers bathing habits? As far as I know he has never had a bath, but he seems to have some instinct telling him that he must wet his feathers. I know they have to wet their feathers to keep them in condition. I tend to adapt my behaviour on what he seems to like, although this may not always be a good thing. I have put a tall glass out, which he likes to drink from, and I have also put a enamel plate down which he also likes to drink from.
I have also put a bigger washing up bowl on the floor with water in but he seems to pretty much ignore that. He seems to know that he has to wet his feathers, but is unsure what to do. He sometimes sits in the plate of water, but is very cautious. Its like he does not want to get wet but knows that he must wash his feathers.

Can anyone suggest something I can try to make it easier for him to get into the habit of bathing his feathers. Like I say, he seems to ignore the bigger bowl I have put on the floor for him. I dont know what else I could put out that would be better for him to bath in?

Brian.


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## Jay3

Cat litter pans work good. Just fill with a couple inches of water. Maybe if you use your hand to splash in it a bit, it will get his attention. Birds seem to bath better when they see others doing it. At least that is the experience I have had with birds just learning.


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## BHenderson

Hi All,

Thanks for the suggestion Jay3, Ill keep a look out for a cat litter tray or something similar.

I finally got around to trying the harness today. Unfortunately I completely messed up the videoing of the event. The camera I have is a real battery guzzler, and by the time I had caught Squeaker, the camera had stopped filming. I did not know it had stopped filming because I had placed it on a table where I hoped it would have a good view of me handling the bird. Sorry about that.

On the other hand, I was quite impressed with the harness, it went on really easily. I was hesitant because if you watch the teaching video it looks more complicated than it is. It slipped on nice and easy. The only problem I had is the wing slots. The main part of the wing fitted through ok, but the longest feathers had to be push through and bent slightly. I was uneasy about doing this, but in the end it was not that big a problem. I will get better with time as well.
Once the harness was on Squeaker was very reluctant in it. He kept walking backwards to try to step out of the harness, but he settled a bit after a few minutes. I give him his first taste of the outside while he had it on. He walked about a bit, but was unsteady at first. It took less than 5 minutes for a cat to spot him and start trying to creep up on him. I had to frighten it away. I will always have to be close by as cats will take advantage of a bird with the harness on. It was later in the afternoon, so the other birds had gone home, but I will start letting him out with the other birds. I think I will keep trying to use it every day in the hope that he becomes accustomed to it. Once I took it off, he sat by himself for a bit and appeared to be sulking a little. I did have to make quite an effort to catch him as well, and it is the first time I have handled him for about a month so he had a lot to sulk about. I hope he will get used to it with repeated use. I will try to make a better video soon when he is outside and mixing with the others.

I wanted to ask about his coat. This is the first time I have had him in my hands for a while, and I noticed that his feathers feel rough. His small feathers are falling out, and he seems to have a bad case of dandruff? Is this normal? I realise that he is loosing his baby feathers for the adult ones, but I did not expect the dandruff. He seems to be constantly grooming as well and I wonder if he maybe needs another spray of the anti-flea treatment?

Brian.


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## Quazar

Brian, the "dandruff" is perfectly normal. as is him losing feathers, and the new ones feeling "rough". Hes in the process of moulting so the roughness is the new feathers coming in, and the "dandruff" is the flaking off of the protective sheath of the new feathers. 
His preening will not only remove old feathers, but also de-sheath some of the new ones coming through.
If hes not had physical contact with other birds, then I doubt he would need another spray for any mites at the moment.
Try offering him a couple of treats once you get the harness on him & he may learn to "accept it" a bit more without as much sulking.
That may also make him less likely to avoid you when you want to put it on lol.


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## BHenderson

Thank you Quazar for the information about the 'dandruff', I am glad it is normal.
I cannot find a treat for my pigeon. Unfortunately Squeaker does not seem to like peanuts, which is the normal treat for pigeons. I have cut them up several times and mixed them with the red-dari which also used to be a treat, but he now ignores both lol. I give him a very rich mixture of seeds and he may be a little spoilt. Can you or anyone else suggest foods I might try as treats?

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Hi Again,

I just thought I would add to my last post. After a difficult time trying to catch Squeaker yesterday, he then did not appreciate having the harness on. Since then he has not come down from the curtain rail except briefly to feed. He was watching me all the time while he was on the ground as well to see if I was going to come after him.
Right from the beginning this pigeon has been very anti-human. He will let me walk right up to him and he will sometimes come and sit next to me, but the moment I bring my hand up or look like I am gong to try to catch him he is off. Maybe I should have got into the habit of handling him right from the beginning, but I was considering that I was going to release him then. He also had an difficult time when I first caught him because I was pushing bits of tablet down his beak, so right from the beginning he associated being caught with a bad experience.
The exciting part of the day for this pigeon is in the morning when the other pigeons start flying into the garden. He fly's back and forth between the two garden windows looking at the others. I think the best thing I could do is find a way to release this pigeon. I do not mind him staying with me, but I feel he does not have much enjoyment with me and all he wants to do is join the others. The problem is he does not like the cage, and he does not like the harness. I dont know how I am going to rehabilitate him without being able to allow him to mix with the other pigeons. The best I can do is try to get a second female pigeon and see if he either settles down or it becomes possible to release him.
I have a big cage that I can use to put the female pigeon in, that way they will have time to get used to each other before I let them mix. I am going to put a post in the section for people looking for pigeons to adopt.
I think it is the best I can do with this pigeon. I do not want to put him through another strenuous attempt at capture when he seems to hate being handled so much.

Any thoughts on the subject very welcome,
Thanks,
Brian.


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## Quazar

Brian, most pigeons, even some hand reared ones dont like being handled at any time. They dont see your hand as part of your body, more as a totally separate predator. Sadly, if he doesnt like the harness then he probably will try to avoid you, so its back to gaining his trust again.
As far as the cage goes, Try keeping all his food & water in the cage so he has to go there to eat. Eventually, he will realise he is safe there and hopefully accept it. 
The two Ive got at the moment (Charlie & Tiny) are a bit like that. Neither like to be handled, but Charlie cant fly, and although he runs from my hands most of the time, he knows when he wants to go somewhere he cant that my hand is his "lift" so when it suits him hes ok with it (and kicks up a din if I dont help lol) 
When Charlie does this, tiny follows. Both are happy to sit beside me or on my shoulder, and if I'm holding Charlie, Tiny will hapilly land on my arm/hand beside him, but wont do it if Charlie isnt there.
Bear in mind also that pigeons are like kids, and go through a "teenage cycle", being rebellious and awkward. It can be fun at times, and normally they do settle down again.


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## BHenderson

Your words are reassuring Quazar, thank you. 

Its a pity that I cannot find someone local to me who has more experience with handling pigeons, I feel my technique could be improved on. The only other people I meet who like pigeons are the old ladies who feed the pigeons as well, but they do not take pigeons in.

Pigeonqueen happened to ring me tonight, and we discussed options for Squeaker. One option is to find a permanent place for him in an aviary, but I suspect these places are few and far between. The other option was the one I discussed earlier, that I find a female to introduce here. Pigeonqueen thinks she may know of a pigeon that may suit the bill. She also has a PMV pigeon which is not too bad that I may consider taking as well. Although I am new at this, I do like having pigeons around. I still go out and feed pigeons every day as well. I am actually a bit of a loner, I can only be in human company for a while and then I have to return home to my refuge, but I do not mind having pigeons around. In fact I think I may find it very rewarding to nurse a pigeon back to heath, even if she never makes a full recovery I think I will still enjoy giving this pigeon a home. Anyway, I need to have further chats with Pigeonqueen and we will see what develops.

Brian.


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## BHenderson

I finally realised that I have been giving the crows the wrong type of peanuts. Sometimes when I am feeding the pigeons the crows will come over and take a few of the peanuts, but generally they ignore them. Today I saw two crows raiding a public waste bin. They were pulling all kinds of unsightly stuff out of the bin and picking at bits of old sandwich. As I went by I remembered that I had a new pack of monkey nuts on me, so I threw a few towards the crows. They went straight over to then and gathered a few each in their beaks and flew off, leaving that horrible looking food they were eating. I was really pleased. I like crows, they look so wonderful and I like them almost as much as pigeons. Crows also have a special place in the mythology and lore of England. I know what to use to attract them over now!!!


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## Jay3

I like crows too. One day I had stopped by a fast food place, and was having a quick snack in the car. I saw a couple of crows near where I was parked. They were picking up and throwing a bag in the parking lot, trying to get the contents to spill out so they could see if there was anything good in it. I got out of the car and picked up the bag to look in. There was a half eaten sandwich inside, so I took it out, broke it up into bite sized pieces and placed it back on the ground for them. Immediately, they came over and picked it apart. I thought it strange that they were gobbling up the bread and lettuce, and not bothering to eat the meat. Then, when all but the meat was gone, I watched as they scooped it up, neatly lined up in their beak, till they could hold no more, and they flew away. Shortly afterwards, they returned for the rest, and carried that away. Then I realized that they were eating the lesser stuff, and saving the meat to bring back to feed their babies. How smart was that? They saved all the meat for the kids. I thought that was pretty cool. I have pics of them pulling the sandwich apart. Pretty smart. What are monkey nuts?


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## BHenderson

The Crows seems to be a new addition to our wildlife locally, but I have seen a pair in the church green and the pair I saw in the high street yesterday. I also think these birds are wonderful and I am watching them whenever I get the chance. I hope my offerings of monkey nuts will encourage them to come over when I feed the pigeons, I would like to add them to my rounds. That's a great story and shows just how intelligent these birds are.

Monkey nuts are simply an alternatively name for peanuts still in their shell. Crows (and squirrels) seem to love them, even more than loose peanuts.


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## Quazar

Jay3 said:


> I like crows too. One day I had stopped by a fast food place, and was having a quick snack in the car. I saw a couple of crows near where I was parked. They were picking up and throwing a bag in the parking lot, trying to get the contents to spill out so they could see if there was anything good in it. I got out of the car and picked up the bag to look in. There was a half eaten sandwich inside, so I took it out, broke it up into bite sized pieces and placed it back on the ground for them. Immediately, they came over and picked it apart. I thought it strange that they were gobbling up the bread and lettuce, and not bothering to eat the meat. Then, when all but the meat was gone, I watched as they scooped it up, neatly lined up in their beak, till they could hold no more, and they flew away. Shortly afterwards, they returned for the rest, and carried that away. Then I realized that they were eating the lesser stuff, and saving the meat to bring back to feed their babies. How smart was that? They saved all the meat for the kids. I thought that was pretty cool. I have pics of them pulling the sandwich apart. Pretty smart. What are monkey nuts?


You should see them at the local McD near us, they literally wait in a queue in the car park. As soon as a car arrives they circle it & wait on the window opening, Hitchcocks "The Birds" hasnt got a look in lol.
They also know which bags have stuff in & which ones are empty.
I watched 2 the other day, someone had crushed up a bag before throwing it out the window & they couldnt unravel it, then one stood on the bottom while the other literally tore the middle right across, then the one standing on the bottom lifted up the bottom & emptied the bag and they both shared the contents.
The crows in our garden dig up tufts of grass & bury things, then replace the tuft & stamp it down & come back for it later.
Its comical watching them especially when they sort of leap sideways cautiously but determined to get to something.


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## Jay3

Quazar said:


> You should see them at the local McD near us, they literally wait in a queue in the car park. As soon as a car arrives they circle it & wait on the window opening, Hitchcocks "The Birds" hasnt got a look in lol.
> They also know which bags have stuff in & which ones are empty.
> I watched 2 the other day, someone had crushed up a bag before throwing it out the window & they couldnt unravel it, then one stood on the bottom while the other literally tore the middle right across, then the one standing on the bottom lifted up the bottom & emptied the bag and they both shared the contents.
> The crows in our garden dig up tufts of grass & bury things, then replace the tuft & stamp it down & come back for it later.
> Its comical watching them especially when they sort of leap sideways cautiously but determined to get to something.




They are a very smart bird, aren't they? And beautiful.


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## BHenderson

There is something special about crows. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is a reason why they played an important role in the mythology of the past. They are somehow closer to us than most birds, but have a mysterious element to them. Its as if they may know something we don't lol. They are also very beautiful, and striking when you are close to them. A very special bird.


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## BHenderson

Squeaker has started pulling at his nails(claws) quite violently, it makes me squint when i see him doing it. His nails are obviously starting to annoy him. I need to think about cutting his nails. Any advice?

Also I have not had mush luck advertising for a partner for Squeaker yet. Am I expecting results too soon? Or is there somewhere else I could advertise for a companion for him?

Thanks


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## spirit wings

BHenderson said:


> Squeaker has started pulling at his nails(claws) quite violently, it makes me squint when i see him doing it. His nails are obviously starting to annoy him. I need to think about cutting his nails. Any advice?
> 
> Also I have not had mush luck advertising for a partner for Squeaker yet. Am I expecting results too soon? Or is there somewhere else I could advertise for a companion for him?
> 
> Thanks


"•Have a styptic powder ready. It's easy to trim too much of your bird's nail and cut into the quick, now matter how careful you are. Because blood loss is extremely dangerous to birds, always have a styptic powder like Kwik Stop handy whenever you groom your bird. 


•Wrap your bird in a towel. Even the sweetest and most tame birds can get a little freaked out at nail trimming time. Cover your bird with a towel when trimming nails to reduce your pet's anxiety as well as to give yourself a good solid grip on the bird.


•Trim only the tip of your bird's nail. When clipping a bird's claws, cut off only the sharp pointed tip to avoid cutting into the quick and causing pain for your pet. 


•Work quickly but carefully. I've never known a bird that liked nail trims, and most owners don't either. To reduce stress for yourself and your pet, work quickly to trim the nails and then release your pet. Being toweled and restrained for even relatively short periods of time can be terrifying and exhausting for a bird, so make sure you are able to clip the nails quickly and accurately.

Don't forget to talk softly to your bird and reassure him as you work. Your bird will likely be frightened and disoriented, and hearing your voice can help calm him. 

By keeping these tips in mind, you can help make nail trimming a much smoother experience for yourself and your feathered friend. With time and effort, your bird should grow to better tolerate nail trimming, and become used to it as a routine grooming procedure."


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## BHenderson

Its such a pity I have to catch him again, he has just started to get close to me again, flying onto the bed and walking up to me and watching what I am doing. He likes it when I talk to him as well. I put bricks out as suggested, and he does occasionally get on them but it does not seem to be making any difference to his nails. Oh well......


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## Quazar

BHenderson said:


> Squeaker has started pulling at his nails(claws) quite violently, it makes me squint when i see him doing it. His nails are obviously starting to annoy him. I need to think about cutting his nails. Any advice?


They may need trimmed if hes not perching much on a stone or brick surface (which normally helps keep them short) or he may just be cleaning any dirt out of them.
Just wondering if squeaker has black toenails ?
One of my previous rescues (Cheeky) used to do that, he had black toenails.
Current rescue Charlie doesnt do it and never has, he has white toenails.
Current rescue Tiny has 2 black toenails on one foot, he does it only to the black nails, and often when standing beside Charlie, Charlie will peck at Tiny's black toes. .....Weird lol


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## BHenderson

Yes he does have black nails. I have not looked around, I thought they were all black. I was watching him the other day and the nails were getting caught on material, and I thought that is why he started pulling at them. He did start having a go at a couple of his claws at that point though, maybe it is something to do with them being black. What are you thinking? do you think they are trying to clean the nails. I thought he was trying to pull the curve out oif them lol. He seems to have succeeded to some extent.


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## BHenderson

Hi All,

I'm sorry to do this again, but I am having a hard time trying to decide what to do with Squeaker! I need those of you with more experience than me to tell me what is best for Squeaker. If I do not sort this out I will always have doubts about him being with me.

Some people believe that I should open the garden door and allow him to go out with the other birds. At the moment he flies away from the door when it is open, but if I left it open I'm sure that his interest in the other pigeons would mean that he would go out and eventually fly off with them. The question is, by doing this, am I giving him a fair chance? I am happy to release him if it is best for him, I can see that living in here with me is not necessarily the most interesting life for him. On the other hand releasing him might spell his demise. I have tried several ways of trying to rehabilitate him, but because he is so resistant to me catching him, he just gets stressed out and does not benefit from the attempts.

On the other hand, if he is ever to be released, it needs to be soon. He is getting more used to me and is slowly creeping closer and closer to me as the days go by. If this continues he will be too used to me and will not be able to rehabilitate.

Several times a day he now dances in front of the mirror cooing and bowing and charging at the mirror, and also coo's at an image I think he can see of himself from the curtain rail where he sleeps at night. This to me is a sign that he needs bird company and I am on the brink of finding him a female that needs a home as well.

It does seem silly to me to have a perfectly healthy bird here when there are plenty of sick birds that need homes. I am sure if I did let him go that I could soon find a pair of sick birds that need a home. On the other hand I may already have had him too long and it is not fair on him to send him out in the cold and a life he is unable to adapt to. I do not have the experience to make this call, but the decision must be made once and for all and I am hoping those of you that read this board will help me make it.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## Quazar

Brian, whether you decide to release or not, you will always be asking yourself the same question... Did I do the right thing.
At present I would definately suggest NOT to release, and also make sure he is never free roaming around when your door is open.
They are very inquisitive birds, and want to explore everywhere.
Squeaker at present has not gone through a proper "soft release" regimen.
This MUST be done properly if he is going to have ANY chance of survival in the outside world.
He does not know how to forage for food outside & does not know what a predator is or how to react in the case of danger. 
He has also already become bonded to you, and may well see other humans as friendly, which sadly all are not.
If he were to venture outside in his present situation, he would definately go exploring, but not have enough knowledge to survive long.
Even if he managed to avoid predators for a bit, chances are hunger would make him ill & they would eventually get him.
Consider also, a birds life expectancy in the wild is much shorter than one in captivity, but a bird who has been bonded for so long then released may even have a tougher time.


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## BHenderson

You see Quazar, the reason this matter has come back to me is because their seems to be differing opinions on releasing pigeons. I have been contacting one or two people to see if I can find a companion for Squeaker, and in the process of doing this it has been questioned whether I am doing the right thing keeping him.
I got to tell you I had resolved to keep him, but when questioned about it I was not sure of my ground. It has been suggested that I should find a place for him in an aviary for later release. I understand why people think this because the bird is perfectly healthy and is constantly trying to exercise his wings, and I do sometimes think if it is good for him to be in captivity.
However I do also agree with you that the bird has a rather nice life here, he often flutters with excitement when I feed him and is getting friendlier by the day.
Never mind about Squeaker getting imprinted on me, I would now find it very difficult to let go of squeaker. Even though he is not tame as such, I still like him being around and we are getting to know each other.

I think I agree with you Quazar, and I must become hardened to criticism from other.

Brian.


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## Jay3

Brian, don't listen to others opinions if that is going to confuse you. Ask yourself what his chances would be in the wild. Now ask yourself if you can give him a good life. Understand that there are many out there that actually believe that all you need to do is put him out and he will be fine. They believe that instinct will kick in. If you put him out, there is a good chance that he would just fly off and get lost. Now if he doesn't find a flock and learn from them, he wouldn't survive. He would starve to death, or get eaten by a predator. Find him a friend to spend time with, and he will have the best of both worlds. Maybe an aviary where he can sun himself in the warm weather could be put together. I think eventually a little companion will probably show up.

My loft started with 6 babies that were abandoned when someone tore down there old porch. I raised them with the intention of releasing when they got older. Then I learned that because they had been hand reared that their chances of survival were not so great. Well, long story short, we built them a loft and aviary. More rescues have been added since. Now they belong to their own little flock. I know one will show up for a companion for Squeaker. Think it through, and do what *you* think is right.


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## BHenderson

I am glad I asked, and I thank you both for your replies.

Unless someone can prove to me that they know what they are talking about and know how to go about releasing him in a way so he will survive, I am going to stick to my original plan that he is going to stay.

I think he is happy here, he just does not like being handled. He comes over and sits near me so I will talk to him, and he falls asleep while I am whispering sweet things to him. That to me is the sign of a bird that is happy, but maybe needs some female company. He shows many signs that make me think he is happy here, and although he is interested in the pigeons that come to feed in the garden, he does not want to join them.

I am looking around some other boards for a companion for him.

Thank you for putting my mind at rest, I am sure enough to be able to move forward. You can never tell what the future holds, but I cannot put life on hold because something may turn up.

Brian.


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## Jay3

Most of my birds don't like being picked up either. They will come to me ad land on me, and eat out of my hand, but most don't care for being picked up.


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## joenadon

BHenderson said:


> Thank you for pointing that out Quazar.
> Does anyone think I am unnecessarily worried about the pigeons being bored?


Pigeons don't really get bored. not knowing how old they are leaves alot of hard to answer questions. first off pigeons should be hand fed untill they are between 28 and 35 days old. always continue to hand feed some during the weening stages and they will make a huge mess when starting to eat on their own. they can be very picky birds. mine love safflower the best. when teaching them to leave the nest always do it in an inclosed room with you present. make sure there are perch areas or out stretch your arms for them to land on. this starts by the time they are 35 days old and untill they are about 45 days old and they are ready to go bye bye. I have raised three to date. usually pigeons are very hearty birds. I use Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula. Of my three I have one that sticks close to home and is now going on four years old. she has a boyfriend but only stays with him one week a month. she is barron. but she goes through the birth cycle every month. I love her dearly and will miss her when she is gone as pigeons life span is not very long either. hope i helped some


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## BHenderson

Its funny he has been acting funny today, I'm not sure if he's having an off day. I am a little unwell and stayed in bed most of the day as I was unable to sleep last night because I was uncomfortable all night.
Squeaker normally flies back and forth to see what the pigeons in the garden are doing, but today he would not stop flying around. I did not try to stop him, but he was back and forth all day. It was not until I got up that he stopped flying around. I think he is growing up and increasingly misses the company of other pigeons. I must try to find him a companion.


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## Jay3

Our Scooter is out in the living room a great deal of the time, and when one of us leaves the room, will fly all over looking for us. If we both leave she will do that even more. Your bird was probably looking for you, or maybe just upset over the different routine, where you slept a lot today. Hope you are feeling better.


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## BHenderson

I have seen an advert for a set of pigeons needing adoption, the thing is the advert states that these are older pigeons. If I was to seek the owner of these pigeons out and ask him for a female to be a companion for Squeaker, would the age matter?
Would Squeaker be just as happy with an older female even though he is only just maturing?
And vice-versa, would the female older pigeon get on with Squeaker?

Would I be better off waiting for a pigeon closer to Squeakers age?

I have noticed a couple of people advertising for companion pigeons, its seems it may not be so easy to find!

Thanks,
Brian.


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## Jay3

BHenderson said:


> *I have seen an advert for a set of pigeons needing adoption, *the thing is the advert states that these are older pigeons. If I was to seek the owner of these pigeons out and ask him for a female to be a companion for Squeaker, would the age matter?
> Would Squeaker be just as happy with an older female even though he is only just maturing?
> And vice-versa, would the female older pigeon get on with Squeaker?
> 
> Would I be better off waiting for a pigeon closer to Squeakers age?
> 
> I have noticed a couple of people advertising for companion pigeons, its seems it may not be so easy to find!
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian.




If they are advertising that they have a _set_ of pigeons needing adoption, than it may be a mated pair. You wouldn't want to break up the pair. Age wouldn't matter so much, except that you would be better off starting with a mate that had a chance of living as long as Squeaker should. Too much older a bird would not have the same lifespan. Finding a companion bird just depends on when someone has a bird to home. Sometimes you don't here of any, and other times seems like everyone has one.


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## BHenderson

I would not dream of splitting a pair. The person advertising makes it sound like he has a whole loft of pigeons to rehome(retired racers i think) and I was hoping he would have a single female there. The notice has been there some time so he may already have housed most of them(I hope). I am looking at some other possibilities as people are trying to help.

Unfortunately I have little to go on here except my intuition, but I am definitely getting the feeling that Squeaker needs some company. I feel he is a little isolated and I must find him some company. I cant explain why I feel this exactly, but when I speak to him and when he is sitting by himself after the birds outside have gone home. I feel he needs some company otherwise he may go down hill.

I have been offered pigeons from further away, but they would have to be delivered, I assume in a box. Do you know anything about these transport boxes? I cant imaging it is comfortable for the pigeon. Is it a reasonable way to have a pigeon delivered?


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## Jay3

Lots of people ship them by mail in a box. I had one sent to me from Georgia that way. Took a couple of days. I have had a few birds flown to me, from across the country,which only costs just a bit more, but they get here in one day. They had to set it up with the airlines, and get there early. We had to pick them up in the evening at our airport. Sometimes you can find somebody who can meet you halfway, if not too far. Shipping isn't the best option, as sometimes the boxes are left outside in the heat or cold. Usually I've heard that it goes okay, but on occasion, not so good I'm afraid. I think the right one will come along, and you just need to be a bit patient. I understand how you feel about him being alone, but it won't kill him for now.


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## BHenderson

Hi everyone, 

I am going to need your generous help again. I have just brought a pigeons home from my rounds. It was outside the shopping center which I visit every couple of days and put down some seed and brown bread if I can avoid the security guards lol.

Anyway, I spotted one of the birds pulling itself along the ground to the food. At first I thought it was just very relaxed, but then I saw another pigeon quite violently attacking it. It was biting its head in a very nasty way, and the poor pigeon was trying to move away but could not get onto its legs. I watch a little longer to make sure it was definitely injured and then I decided it was coming home with me.
The only thing I am worried about is that it may be a female, and the bird that was biting its head may have been a male trying to 'drive' it. I reasoned that even if this was the case, this pigeon was not going to be able to look after babies with a broken leg.

She did try to get away from me, but her flight was weak, and she was so hungry that she soon returned to try and get some more food. I managed to catch her and she is now home with me. She is not showing any other symptoms like lose of balance of a tilted head etc. I am watching for PMV type symptoms just in case.

I have put her in the the cage, and as you can probably tell I think she is a female. Its her mild behavior and something about the roundness of her head that makes her look female. Anyway, she looks a little dirty, as do all the pigeons round here. She is sitting on the floor of the cage and has been eating non-stop since she got her, poor mite. She was obviously having trouble getting food. I have put some water in the cage with some vitamins in it, but I have only had babies before, and I had to dip their beak in the water to let them know it was there. Do I have to dip and adults beak as well or will she work it out for herself?

On the way home her legs were hanging lose and I could see no obvious break in them, it just looks like she may have been clipped by a car or something and it is too painful to walk on. I have just taken my own medicine and I will feel better shortly, I will then pick her up to have a proper look to see if I can see what is wrong.

So far Squeaker has kept his distance, she is in the cage though. The cage has some gaps in it but she has shown no sign of wanting to escape from the cage. She is just eating and sitting quietly.

I will post again when I have had a look at the leg, I will try and take some pictures of her and some pictures of any injuries that I can see.

Brian.


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## Jay3

Looking forward to the pictures. Keep her isolated from Squeaker for a few weeks until you are sure she is not ill with anything. Have you checked her over well for any signs of predator attack? Checked down her throat to see how that looks? Post a picture of her and her droppings. As far as the water, she will find it. Just watch that she is drinking. Are you sure there are no broken bones in the legs?


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## BHenderson

OK got a bit of a story to tell here. I put the female in the cage, but I remembered that the cage has a problem. Basically its home made and has a couple of gaps in the door that the previous occupant(Squeaker) got out of. I decided to go round to see dad with the measurements to see if he could make a couple of bits of wood to block the gaps. I hoped that the new occupant would not work out how to get out before I got back. Unfortunately I was wrong, and when I got back they were both together on the bed.
Squeaker was sort of grooming her face(its got to be a female, it dont think he would groom a males face?). I watched for a while and it looked as if he was trying to work out how to mount her. Of course the poor female could not get onto her legs to get away from him. After a while he seemed to get frustrated and started to ruff her up by biting instead of grooming. I decided to separate them at this point.

Because the female was out of the cage and in the bright full spectrum bulb I have in the room, I could finally see what was affecting her legs. It looked like cotton thread was wrapped around her legs. I picked her up and wrapped her in a towel and I put her on my lap and used a blade to carefully cut the thread away. It took about half an hour altogether because of the bits that were tightly wrapped around her toes. She was very patient and laid there not moving for almost the whole time. The only time she moved was when I released part of her leg or foot and she was able to stretch. Poor thing, it must have been agony to be trapped like that.
Anyway, it appears there is not much else wrong with her. She appears to be on her feet now and I have put her back in the cage to keep her away from Squeakers bullying. She is laying down again now but that could be because she is tired. I will check her again in the morning to see if she is moving about ok. The only thing that seems a bit unusual to me is she was so easy to handle. Even Squeaker who is used to me struggles more than she did. This could be an indication she does not feel well in some way, although she is not 'puffed up' in any way. I have just noticed as well that she is cooing in the cage. Surely she is not calling to Squeaker when he was being so horrible to her?

Unfortunately, if she is well tomorrow then there is no reason for me to deny her her freedom, I will have to let her go. I will see what happens tomorrow.

I took a couple of pictures of her leg before I took the string off, and I took a little bit of video of the two of them interacting. I will check them to see if they came out and I will upload them shortly.

Brian.


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## Jay3

Putting them together without keeping her separate for a few weeks is asking for trouble. She could be carrying any illness without your knowing. You could be opening up your own bird to sickness. That's why you should wait for a few weeks, a month being better. That gives an illness they may be harboring time to show itself. Also, if the poor little thing couldn't even walk, or get away to protect herself, to put her in with a male who can become very aggressive with her was just mean. She could also have a mate somewhere out there looking for her, and if that is so, than she isn't going to be interested in your bird. She would consider the other bird her mate, and want to be reunited with him. You don't introduce birds that way. You keep them in separate cages until they can get used to each other. At least if you care about the welfare of the hen you do. Males can become very aggressive and really injure them.


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## BHenderson

As I said, the cage I have is home buildt and I did not expect to be bringing a bird home. The bird was brought home because it was already being bullied by other birds because it could not defend itself. I could have left the bird but it is likely because of the way she was tied up she would not be around for much longer.
I brought her home, but I do not have a money supply to buy nice cages and such, so I did the best I could with what I had.
Would you have left a pigeon that was being attacked by others and was dragging herself along the floor to try to get to the food?
I had to make the best of the situation.
I am not sure that the pigeon is well now, she may just be tired though. If she is well in the morning then I will take her back where I found her, which is about three streets away as the crow flies. I dont think she would get lost even if I released her from here.

Photos are attached.


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## Quazar

From what Brian posted, I dont think there was any intention of them being together, the new bird worked out how to get out before Brian returned.
However, Jay3 is correct, you need to keep them separate just in case of disease.
The new bird may now be acting "normal" having the string removed, but could still be ill if it has not been eating well due to its previous predicament.
Most birds especially if their movement is restrictive, do realise when you are trying to help them and therefore can become docile up to a point of letting you handle them to ease their situation.
Good save on the string point, and I would keep an eye on the new bird for a couple of days before releasing, just to make sure it is eating & drinking properly etc.
Any dishes you use for it to eat or drink from, be sure to sterilise & clean thourougly before using them again for Squeaker


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## amyable

Hi Brian, well you've had a busy day.

I'm so glad you noticed the string and have got it off before it did too much damage to her feet.

I agree with Quazar about keeping her just for a couple more days to make sure she's looking fit before releasing again.

Also as Jay3 said, she may have a mate out there wondering where she is so if she's ok after a good feed and rest and after a couple of days is not showing obvious signs of illness, then it would only be right to release her back to her flock.

All the other things about quarantine have been covered so good job, very lucky you spotted her as she would have had a terrible life with that string cutting into her long term.

Well done.

Janet

I just have to say that the females I have here are not nice to each other at all, so don't let them fool you. When it comes to fighting over territories, food and mates then they'll really go on the attack. It's great when a pair are alone and get along, they can be so sweet but bring in competition and boy, do things hot up!!!! Females aren't always sweetness and light!!


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## Jay3

No, I wouldn't have left the bird there to be picked on, but I sure wouldn't have brought it home and put what could be a sick bird, in with my bird. And I wouldn't have subjected a sick or injured bird to the chance of being picked on by my bird. No one said that you needed to buy expensive cages. An upside down clothes basket, or a box with a small towel on the bottom work well. There are lots of ways of keeping the new bird, just takes a bit of thought.

In those pictures, it looks like there is still string on her feet. You said she couldn't stand before you removed it, and in the pictures she is standing. If there is any string at all left on her foot, it will get infected and probably fall off, and be very painful. Every strand must be removed. Then maybe treat the area with an antibiotic creme.


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## BHenderson

Listen Jay3 if you want to turn this into an argument then I am quite happy to do so. Do not lecture me on how to care for birds THAT NOBODY ELSE IS CARING FOR!


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## Jay3

I wasn't trying to lecture you. Just telling you how things are. There have been many people to bring a new bird into their loft, only to end up having many sick birds, because they didn't keep them separate. You care about your bird, that is obvious. Then you don't want to take chances with his health. Some illnesses kill. But if you don't want advice, then do it your way. You will either learn from advice, or the hard way. Your choice.


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## BHenderson

I dont believe this pigeon is well. She is able to walk on her legs now, she has drunk a little and ate well yesterday, I have not seen her eat this morning.

She is staying in the laying down position and does practically nothing. She has plenty of fight in her when I try to pick her up though. There is nothing in her throat and I have only seen one dropping on a cloth that was light green and did not seem to contain any solids.

She may just be weak after a couple of days of being tied up?


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## amyable

Hi Brian,

Yes it would be wise to keep her a little while then to see if she picks up on her own or whether she shows any signs of illness that we can hopefully start to treat.
Difficult at this stage to say what needs to be done.

Do you have any worming tablets. I'm not sure what you have by way of treatments from Squeaker. If so it might be an idea to give her a dose as for a startin case she has a problem there. Also spray her in case she has any unwanted pests which I think Squeaker did.
These are things that can get her down and might help eliminate possible causes if she's not looking well.

Monitor her poops and keep an eye on her. Let us know how things are going.

Janet


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## BHenderson

I still have the medication you sent me, Baytril, flagyl oral and appertex. Plus I have the ones I brought 250mg flagyl tablets and Para tablets(I think parastop). I also have a couple of other human antibiotics.

She is showing more signs of activity as the evening goes on. she keeps trying to escape the cage. She keeps returning to the laying down position which makes me think she is over tired for some reason.

I will keep an eye on her.


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## Quazar

Brian, good to hear shes a bit more lively, She may just be resting her feet a bit now that the thread has been removed, but also, ive noticed that when a bird is in quarantine or a confined cage, it does tend to settle in the lying position more than standiing or roosting on one leg.
Once she is eating a bit better, you hopefully should see her poops improve


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## BHenderson

Hi All,

Yes Quazar you are right, her droppings look much better today. I tried to take a photo inside the cage with the flash but it was too bright and destroyed the picture.

She seems more active today although still a little lethargic. She has eaten as I have seen the bowl has been knocked over. I am a little worried that she is not drinking properly, but her droppings are solid with white but on the wet side, so she must be getting enough water.

I will see how she is in the morning, but I see no reason to keep her if she is well tomorrow. Poor Squeaker has been showing lots of interest in the cage so he will be disappointed when she goes. How do you think I should go about it, she is only a couple of streets away from where I found her. Should I just open the garden door and let her fly out if she wants to, or should I take her down to where I found her and release her?

Thanks for the helpful hints.
Brian.

P.s. I meant to add Janet that I had a look through her feathers and under her wings for pests, but I could not see any. I suppose they could be microscopic and invisible in some way? Do you think I should spray her anyway? I do not have any worming tablets unfortunately, is it a common problem for pigeons?


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## Quazar

Glad her droppings are better, I had a funny feeling they might settle down a bit, she was aso prob stressed about beinghandled & gettng the string off.

I would tend to release her where you found her, apart from being in her known territory, it also wont stress Squeaker as much if he saw her go out the window.
If you did it using the "soft release" method, It would also give you experiance to see how a bird should react in this situation, should you need to release Squeaker, or any other young bird you find in the future.


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## BHenderson

I'm sorry Quazar, I'm a bit confused by what you put. If I release her from where I found her that will be a few streets away and I will have to take her there in a cage and just let her go.
Or I can release her slowly from my garden door. I can slowly release her by letting her come and go as she pleases, but she will be about 2mins flight away from where I found her.
What do you think?


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## Quazar

Sorry Brian, Yes, I was meaing for you to take her in the cage & release where you found her, preferibly if possible when other pigeons are around and maybe feeding. (I realise this may be difficult with the security guards at the shopping centre, but it is where most likely her mate may be, or other birds that she is familiar with) I know logically it doesnt seem that far, but she probably wont associate your garden as being close to where you found her, and she may at first do as you suggest - come & go - till she gets her bearings. 
We still cant be 100% sure that she isnt carrying anything which may affect squeaker, so you really dont want her coming and going where squeaker could interact with her.
By letting her go at the centre, she'll know straight away where she is & is not likely to backtrack to your garden.


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## BHenderson

I am thinking of letting her go today. A number of things bother me though, mainly that she does not move much and does not eat much. I have seen her eat but I think she only ate once yesterday. I am not sure that she is drinking either, that may be because she does not like the dog bowel like dish I have put her water in.

On the other hand, there was one male that was biting her in particular when I picked her up, like he was trying to persuade her to go somewhere. She was not able to because she wanted the food so bad, and obviously her feet were tied up.
He may be her mate, but on the other hand he may just be a male that had managed to mate with her while she was tied up and now considered that he had ownership of her.

I suppose I have a human concern here that I am projecting onto the bird. I feel guilty that we are going to have the coldest day of the year so far today and I am chucking her out.

Another factor here is that I am not familiar with the behaviour of females, and it may be normal for them to be more quiet and more sedentary in their behaviour?

By the way, I dont know if anyone saw what I put at the end of one of my posts, I checked her feathers and under her wings the other day, and she looked quite clean for a street pigeon? I could see nothing crawling about and no little mites or anything. Do you think I should spay her anyway?

Brian.


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## Quazar

If shes going back out, then theres really no point in spraying, save it for when you need it.
Out of all the birds Ive rescued, ive only had one that had mites, and that was Chalkie, the one found "surfing" in a flooded road.
If they want water, and know whereit is, they will drink from anything that can contain it.
Ferals here sit on wheelie bins & drink from the dimpled bit around the hinges after it has been raining lol.
Birds are shy & scared till they get to know you, so will at first rarely eat when watched


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## BHenderson

I have taken her back where I found her and released her. Before doing so I locked Squeaker in the kitchen and let her out in the livingroom. I watched her fly about and all seemed to be ok. And she showed me what she wanted by trying to get out the windows. I decided it was time to release her. I wrapped her in a cloth and held her to my chest and walked down to the shopping centre.

I tried to keep an eye on her when I let her go, but it was difficult because there was so many pigeons flying around in the big porch that leads into the shopping centre. She had very red eyes, so I watched for pigeons that had very red eyes. I saw one that went over to a male and he immediately started displaying to her, but she did not fly away indicating they were a couple. A few minutes later I also saw a red eyed pigeon go to what looked like the last baby there. It was trying to get a feed but the parent was reluctant. I saw him/her feeding him a bit later though. Both these pigeons could have been my female, in which case I have returned her to her partner and baby. I cannot be sure though.
I feel a bit guilty about the possibility that this baby lost its mum for a couple of days, but she would not have been able to feed him the way she was so it had to be done.

I put out a good helping of food for the pigeons and they all came over to eat. The baby came as well but could not eat the bread very well, so I put down some seed as well and gave them all a little feast. I was relieved to see the baby eat, he looked so vulnerable. I think I will go back later when it is less busy to give them all a second feed, and hopefully smooth her ride back into her normal life.

I released Squeaker once I had the female wrapped up in a cloth and he saw me leave with her. When I came back he nearly escaped because he was waiting near the door when I came in. He never waits there so he was hoping I was going to come back with the female, poor thing.

I am going to redouble my efforts to find Squeaker a partner.

Brian.


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## Quazar

Glad the release went well and hope Squeaker doesnt miss her too much lol.
They do pick up on the smallest things which is why it was better to release away from home, or he may have been continually trying to get out the window looking for her.
Once he realises she is gone for good he will settle down again.


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## BHenderson

I meant to mention earlier a strange male pigeons I saw. All the other pigeons were eating the food I had put down, and this male was eating a bit, but he was stopping and looking out as if he was watching something far away.
He started to display dangerous behaviour like standing at the edge of the road and watching the traffic. He would often let himself arch his back backwards and it looked as if he was leaning to far backwards and was going to loose his balance.
I watched for the sign of PMV that I was told about, that they miss the seed when picking it up, but he did not seem to be doing this.

I was considering taking him home, as his dangerous behaviour means he is likely to get hit by a car, but I was worried about if Squeaker would catch PMV even if the other pigeon was in a cage?

What do you think? PMV?

Brian.


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## amyable

Brian, I just wanted to say well done for helping that string injured hen.

I'm so glad she was ok to go back to her flock, she'll have a much better life now thanks to you.

It's a bit worrying to see a pigeon acting slightly differently especially when they look as if they might be in danger.
I definitely watch out for this one and if it carries on acting strangely it might be an idea to take it in.
The only thing I'd worry about is if you've not really got a separate room in which to keep new and possibly sick birds. It's just for Squeakers sake as some infections can be airbourne. Others are more commonly passed via contaminated drinking/eating bowls etc which can be sorted by keeping those separate. Just makes life a bit difficult for you so I'd try and make sure the bird needs help first if you do see it regularly.

Good luck

Janet


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## BHenderson

I went back and gave them another feed today, all looked fine and the baby was still ok. I will try and include the shopping centre in my rounds as often as possible, but I have to watch for the security guards who don't like people feeding the pigeons.

These babies that are born late in the year look so vulnerable, this particular baby looks underweight and I find it really hard not to pick it up and take it home for a good feed lol.


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## pigiesNdovies

aaaahhh so cute when babis n chip when hungry. i feel like a natural born female who needs to check up on my babies -esp when they c owner n wana eat n forget they r grown n still act like squab-Bs.....

i love when baby chicks follow me n when grown ups still follow 2 dig worms 4 them


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## Quazar

pigiesNdovies said:


> .......
> i love when baby chicks follow me n when grown ups still follow 2 dig worms 4 them


Pigeons DONT eat worms


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## BHenderson

Thats what I thought, although they will empty my dish of mealworms when I am late feeding them lol.


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## pigiesNdovies

Yuppers! I thought only chicken n quail chicks only eat worms but pigeons n people eat em 2 

I heard zebra doves n other exotic birds/doves/pigies eat insects 2. I know i wont eat worms even though i;m Mexican n some Mexicans will eat fried crickets, worms, ant eggs(escamoles) etc cuz its like an apetizer/exotic dish.


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## Jay3

Pigeons don't eat worms, and besides, they can get very ill from them.


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## BHenderson

Weve just had weather forecasters telling us we are going to be hit by 3 hours of heavy wind and rain. It seems to me this would be the time that babies would get knocked out of their nests!!!

On the other hand, there cannot be many babies left in nests at this time of year. I think I will go and have a look around later just to see if there are any problems after the gusty wind


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## BHenderson

I'm starting to get a bit worried about Squeaker, he has always cooed and bowed when he has seen other birds outside, but recently he has started doing it by himself.

This is sort of like the person who starts talking to himself because he spends too much time by himself. He has started doing it in the middle of the night as well. I do hope this does not indicate the he is going mad?

I am looking in some new places for a companion for him, that's why I have not been posting here so much. I will post again as soon as I have some news.

Merry Christmas,
Brian.


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## BHenderson

Since my post earlier, I went out to do something. I feed a few pigeons along the way and noticed another one that was collapsing on its legs. I managed to catch it and looked at its feet, and sure enough it had sting tightly bound around its feet.

I brought it home and I have taken some photos of before and after I have taken the string off. I thought the mark around its ankle was string, but after I was trying to pry the string away I realised it was a scab. I have looked closely with a bright light and I cannot see any other string.
There was string around both feet and it was tighter than the last one I dealt with, but I think I got it all off. I made her bleed a tiny bit because the string was tight. I used plastic tooth picks to get under the string and then used a knife to cut it. The mark around the ankle must of had string in it but it must of come away with the rest.

Her feet look a little sore and swollen, but I do not think it was tight enough or been on long enough to cause her toes to die. I have put some Germolene cream with local anaesthetic on her feet and I have put her back in the cage. She appeared to be up on both feet, so I hope I have got all the string off. She soon layed down though as her feet look red and slightly swollen now I have removed the string.
I hope to release her as soon as possible, but it is too late tonight and I think I should keep an eye on her feet for a bit to make sure she can use them ok before I free her.

What do you think from the photos? I know the mark around her ankle looks like its string but its not, it is a scab that I have broken open slightly trying to see if there is any string inside the wound. I dont think there is but I cannot be sure until I see her using her legs and feet properly.

Photos attached,
Brian.


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## BHenderson

This last picture is not much better than the rest, but you can just about see where I have removed the string.


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## BHenderson

Here are a couple more pictures of her, I have let her move about a bit after putting Squeaker in the kitchen.

I wanted to look at her leg, and sure enough she is holding it up. It is also looking a bit darker than the other leg and a bit swollen. I cannot tell if I have got all the string off. Can anyone advise me here?

I am also considering giving her some antibiotic, to stop any infection from getting started. What do you think?


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## amyable

Hi Brian, Glad to know you're keeping busy on the rescue front!!!

Good catch there again. Unfortunately the first pictures are out of focus but looking at the last two, her feet do look quite healthy as far as the colour goes anyway.
I had one a while ago that had to have four toes amputated as they'd gone black so as long as your birds toes look pink and seem to have a good blood supply, then maybe her limp is due to discomfort from having held her feet at an awkward angle for a while.

Also my bird did have a very deep scab where the thread had dug well into the skin, I used to bathe it daily and rub antibacterial cream into it to keep it soft and gradually it filled out and was ok. Perhaps an idea on the scab yours has.

I've just got to pop off for a bit but if I think of anything else for you to try, I'll post back.

Just getting ready for a very traumatic day tomorrow as my local flock are being evicted after many years from their home and I need to be there to make sure they don't block any birds inside and take any babies away. I'm very upset about having to watch them thrown out as the weather is terrible and they've always lived inside this building so am getting boxes ready in case I have to bring any youngsters home.

Speak again soon,

Janet


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## BHenderson

Thanks for the suggestions Janet, I am going to use the cream again tomorrow and do what you suggested and try and keep it clean and soft. I think she is a he as its back feathers are dirty showing it drags them. I read that somewhere lol.

The toes do all look pink, and are pinker now I have removed the string. I will see how he is tomorrow. If there is any sign of infection I will start using some antibiotics.

I wish you lived closer to me, I might be able to help you with you problem with the birds being evicted. Let me know what happens.


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## amyable

hi Brian,

I think you're right. Wait and see if any infection looks like it's starting after a couple of days. Sometimes it just swells up a bit when the constriction's first removed so may settle. If you start ant-biotics then he's got to stay for a lopnger period to complete the course. Also it's a shame to knock out his natural anti-bodies if it's not needed as they need all the help they can get if they are living out in the wild in these poluted towns and with all the germs we humans throw at them!!

I wish I didn't have to deal with my flocks eviction alone as well, I don't like having to listen to all the rubbish the security chaps throw out with regards to the pigeons. I went to give them a good feed today so they're full and ready for the cold. I got quite upset watching them doing their usual flight after eating and then going back into their 'loft' for the night, not knowing it's their last night in there after so many years. 
They've been a fixture on the green for years and are predominantly white pigeons although some banded birds have joined in and some new ferals over the past year so now there are some unusal colours. On a good day I love to watch the white birds flying against blue skies, it will be sad if they lost forever but I almost hope they move on if they can find another safe haven, but those are few and far between sadly with old buildings being knocked down all over the place now. I expect they'll just take to sitting on the roofs of the empty shops once they're blocked and then the complaints will probably start from those not wanting them around. Seagulls have also arrived recently and people moan about them but the pigeons have been ok up to now as they spend most of their time inside really and a lot of folks don't actually know where they live. Oh well, I can't stop it happening so I'll just have to watch out for them as best I can from now on.

Good luck with your new friend and well done for catching him.

Janet


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## BHenderson

I feel for you Janet, it feels horrible when you know they have so much against them. People are such fools, I cannot even be bothered to argue with them their point of view is so distorted.

As was said to me once, at least you know you did you best by them! Pigeons are remarkably resilient birds as you know, and they deal with much worse things that man throws at them. I get the same helpless feelings when I look at the babies born so late in the year, you just feel they are not getting a fair go of things.

Let us know what happens, especially if you end up having to take a few on because they are not well enough to look after themselves or something. I may be able to help by taking some.

I will be with you in spirit.

Brian.


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## amyable

BHenderson said:


> I will be with you in spirit.


Brian I appreciate that, I've just got back and feel so bad, made worse I think by having to deal with it alone. It wasn't that easy as ten pigeons just refused to leave. The main flock flew out when the men first went in and started spraying. I found four nests with eggs and so I reckon these last birds were protecting these. I eventually caught them as I got the men to bring in a ladder and so I climbed up to the rafters and when the birds flew into the corners it was dark enough to catch them. So having got all the holes blocked they allowed me to go around and check all the floors again and then it was closed off for good.
I suppose it was a blessing that I didn't find any squabs and two youngsters did fly out although sadly they look totally disorientated when I saw them later, just sitting on the roof. The rest of the flock were flying madly around.
Just hoping they can find some shelter asap as it's freezing cold already.
A horrible feeling now I'm home but at least they're all out safely. Not like the first time they blocked this place off, birds were left inside and it was three days before I was able to get them out.
Thanks for the offer of help though. When I caught one of them that looked just like one of my rescues, a small roller type, I found it hard to let it go. Just wanted to bring it home with me but I reckoned it was cruel to separate it from the others as it was healthy and may have lived with them for a while, so I let it go. I think unless they're obviously injured or sick then it's best to let them stay with the flock as they have established mates possibly.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your post with this story, but really appreciated your good wishes as I did find it very upsetting.
Back onto positive things...

So how's your latest rescue doing today?

Janet


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## BHenderson

You did a good thing Janet, the pigeons would not have got any consideration if there was not someone like you there. Well done.

From what I know of pigeons, the disoriented ones will probably have a difficult nights sleep, but in the morning will start hooking up with other flocks and will soon work out where others sleep.

The worst is as you say the nests that were up there, but I think pigeons born this late in the year have much less chance of survival anyway. These setbacks for the pigeon occur in nature as well and I'm sure they have the ability to cope with the change.

I think you did a good thing by making it as easy as possible for the pigeons. The worst thing is pigeons getting trapped and other pigeons staying nearby because they are paired with a trapped bird. Pigeons often lose nests, and like you say the worst was avoided because there are no squabs.

As for my little friend, he is looking better. I am putting Squeaker in the kitchen for a while every few hours to give the other pigeon a chance to get out a bit. His foot does not look badly swollen, but he is holding it up. He has started to use it more as the day goes on, so I do not think it is that bad. I put more cream onto it today and I am feeding him vitamin and probiotic water.

I wish I could leave him out as I feel he needs some exercise for the leg, but I cannot leave Squeaker in the kitchen too long lol.

I did think of you this morning, and I am glad you were able to lessen the damage to the pigeons. You got the best possible outcome for the pigeons, considering you did not have the power to stop it happening, well done.

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Can I ask, how do people cope with two male pigeons living together? I am just wondering if I did end up with a pigeon that was too ill to leave for a while, what would happen once they started living together?
Do the pigeons eventually work out the pecking order or do they keep fighting?
Can you dissuade them from fighting? Every time they show signs of fighting force them to separate?

I just want to know in case this situation comes up how I would cope with it?

Thanks,
Brian.


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## BHenderson

Poor Squeaker, every time I release a bird that has stayed here a few days, he goes really quiet and sits up in the corner by himself for a long time.

Poor guy, I got to get him a girlfriend soon.


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## amyable

Poor Squeaker, it will happen I'm sure, probably be like buses, three will come together!!
Does that mean you've released your latest rescue?

I have a hawk injured pigeon ATM that it first I thought would be a keeper as it looked so bad, but as each day goes by 'he's' getting more restless and I really hope he's going to recover enough for release. They seem so docile when they first arrive due to being in shock but he definitely wants out asap. That's the trouble, you may have a rescue but it's also important the bird is happy to be confined for life.
It's frustrating I know for you but I bet something happens when the right situation presents itself you'll know.

Keep the faith!! 

Janet


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## BHenderson

Yes I let the bird with the bad leg go, his leg was getting better fast and he was almost using it normally. Pigeons heal fast!
I was happy to let him stay longer as I felt a little responsible for how sore his leg was, having had to dig around a bit to get the string out, but like you say they seem to reach a point where they start showing you they want to go. He kept flying at the window and was very keen to get out the door when I opened it to feed the other pigeons.
By contrast, Squeaker seems to fly away from the door when I open it, its almost like he's afraid I might kick him out if he gets too close.

I didn't know we had a hawk problem with pigeons. I know in certain areas they have hawks to try and frighten the pigeons away, but I have never seen a pigeon attacked by a hawk. Maybe its because I am in a big city. Its good that he/she is recovering well.

I am having some difficulties with my computer deleting files it shouldn't and I need to reload again. After I will join this new fancy pigeon forum that apparently covers just London. I have been given the details by someone who says I have a good chance of getting a female that is not needed by one of the breeders. I have also been told that a feral pigeon will get on best with another feral, so I still have not made my mind up about whether to wait or not for a feral.

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Squeaker has started getting some white hairs(feathers?) on his face that make him look a bit bedraggled. Is this normal?
I hope I am giving him the right food. If anything there may be a chance I am feeding him too much rich food rather than too little. I have been told not to feed him so much hemp seed.
I have not seen many pigeons with white looking hairs on their faces, is it normal?

Thanks,
Brian.


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## BHenderson

After all this time I have been offered 2 hens would you believe. I am wondering, will this be a happy mix. I have been told that Squeaker will show a preference for one female over the other, but will they get on as a family or will there be resentment between the females because one is Squeakers favourite?
I would like to think this would be a happy mix and 3 seems a good number for me to have, but I have no idea if it works in the real world? I do not want to separate the two females if they have been companions for a long time, but I am reluctant to go up to 4 birds by taking an extra male?
What do you all think?


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## amyable

Hi Brian, well didn't I say it would all come at once!!

It's hard to say how any of them will behave when mixed. I'm having major fights ATM with two hens that were once mates but now a male that's left his mate has split these two up and taken up with the one.
It's something you can't seem to control sadly.

I suppose all you can do is introduce them all and wait and see.
Someone that breeds and manipulates who breeds with who might have some advice as to how to set them up but as yours will all have to live freely in one room then you won't really have a way of splitting a pair up.

Are the two hens ferals?

Janet


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## BHenderson

Unfortunately Feral hens that need rehousing are really hard to find from what I have experienced. The two I am being offered are rollers that for some reason do not fly right and need to be rehoused. If I don't get an indication one way or the other I will take the risk and take them both and see how things go. After being on his own for so long it might be a bit of a treat for Squeaker LOL, or is this a purely male way of seeing things LOL.

I think I might be better moving this question to a more prominent spot, as what you say about a breeder seeing this question is what I have been thinking. If anyone is going to know how a threesome is going to work out its someone who breeds pigeons regular.

Ill have a look for a more relevant spot on the board,
Thanks Janet.


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## amyable

Hi,

yes it might be worth a try to post about it. The trouble might be that if a breeder were to fix who mates with who they probably shut the pair off from all others so they have no choice!!! That's why I mentioned it might not be practical for you. Feel sorry for the one left out.
Let's see if you get any expert advice.
Good news anyway!

Janet


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## Woodnative

Although it may work out fine with both, it may be easier on you to just get one of the hens if you have that option. That way you won't have to worry about overcrowding now or what to do if it does not work out. The new hen will be bonded with your bird as a pair. Also, even if you say "no way" now, you may still be tempted in the future to let them hatch out one egg or clutch, so that would leave a little space for a future addition. You know your situation better and best wishes with whatever you decide.


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## BHenderson

Your words are wise Woodnative and I must not let my excitement get the better of my good judgement. Thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious to me.


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