# My Darling is Sick



## rum175

I found a sick rock pegion one month back and started taking care of it. It is now part my family and playful with my daughter. For the last one week it developed a swollen beak. It is unable to eat or drink for the last one day. I will take it to vet on monday and want to tube feed it today. I want to know how to prepare the liquid diet. BTW, I am from India. I have dried green peas, lenthils, whole wheat bread, honey, milk, etc. Please advice me on this and help me save my darling


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I found a sick rock pegion one month back and started taking care of it. It is now part my family and playful with my daughter. For the last one week it developed a swollen beak. It is unable to eat or drint for the last one day. I will take it to vet on monday and want to tube feed it today. I want to know how to prepare the liquid diet. BTW, I am from India. I have dried green peas, lenthils, whole wheat bread, honey, milk, etc. Please advice me on this and help me save my darling


Not sure I would want to wait two more days to get treatment started from the sounds of things. Can you post up a clear close-up photo of the swollen beak, do you see anything around/inside the mouth/beak area that looks like yellowish, cheesy growth, or does the swelling look more like bumps/blisters? Can you also post a photo of this bird's fresh droppings (poop)?

Here is how to post up photos:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525049&postcount=15

Karyn


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## rum175

I have limited options for pegion vets over here. I found one with great difficutly and that person is available only on Monday. Please find attached the pics of my darling. Please advice. It didnt poop since morning so i could not get a pic of that.


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I have limited options for pegion vets over here. I found one with great difficutly and that person is available only on Monday. Please find attached the pics of my darling. Please advice. It didnt poop since morning so i could not get a pic of that.


Although the photos are not near as clear as I would like (you can try again, see if you camera has a close-up setting and back off a bit, to help focus) it looks to be an infection pigeons get causes by a protozoa commonly called canker (trichomoniasis). Sometimes they can also get secondary bacterial issues so they have two infections at once. The same drugs used to treat humans can also be used to treat, and cure, pigeon infections. I would advise you, instead of waiting, to go to the pharmacy and get two medicines on is called Metronidazole (common trade name Flagyl, it comes in pills and would be used to treat canker and a second medicine called Trimethoprim/Sulfa (common trade names, Bactrim, Septra, Cotrimoxazole), comes in pills, and would used to treat bacterial issues. You will also need a 1cc/mL syringe, the kind without a needle attached to give the medicines. If you pick up these medicines I will help you with instructions on how to mix and dose them. You would just need a few pills of each medicine.

Karyn


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## rum175

My sincere thanks to you for this help. Please see these two pics. I tried my best to give you a better look but camera limitations. Sorry for that.

I will go and get those medicines your recommended in next 30 mins. What about diet. It didnt eat anything for the last 24 hours. What do i do. Please advice.


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> My sincere thanks to you for this help. Please see these two pics. I tried my best to give you a better look but camera limitations. Sorry for that.
> 
> I will go and get those medicines your recommended in next 30 mins. What about diet. It didnt eat anything for the last 24 hours. What do i do. Please advice.


With the photos try coming another 12" (30cm) back from the your bird, as these new photos are just about the same as the old. How much does your darling weigh?... is the bird still able to drink on its own? Food is not as big a concern as you might think, they can go a little while without a lot of food, as long as they are drink well (or a caregiver helps them drink/gives water). How much movement is there still if the beak/mouth area, how blocked if the mouth throat? Please do get the meds ASAP, this can not wait make sure you know the strength of the pill(s) you get (IE; 250mg, 400mg, 500mg etc...).

Karyn


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## rum175

I found those medicines. It took a while. Sorry for this dealy. I found both the tablets you mentioned. 
1. Flagyl
2.Trimethoprim and Sulphamethoxazole

This one not able to drink water by itself. I tried several times but it didn't show any interest to eat or drink. It was able to walk until couple of hours back but now it is so weak it is unable to stand or walk. Loosing its balance while standing or walking. 

I tried once again for good clarity pics but my cam sucks. 

Please advice me how to give this medication.


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## rum175

It is able to open its mouth wide as if there is something stuck inside ( something like a yawning). It does that once in a 10-15 mins. I could not check its weight. it appears fully grown and weighs like a standard rock pegion. Not sure exactly how much it weighs though.


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I found those medicines. It took a while. Sorry for this dealy. I found both the tablets you mentioned.
> 1. Flagyl
> 2.Trimethoprim and Sulphamethoxazole
> 
> This one not able to drink water by itself. I tried several times but it didn't show any interest to eat or drink. It was able to walk until couple of hours back but now it is so weak it is unable to stand or walk. Loosing its balance while standing or walking.
> 
> I tried once again for good clarity pics but my cam sucks.
> 
> Please advice me how to give this medication.


Need to know the strength of the each type of pill. Did you get a 1cc syringe?

Can you mix up some hydration fluid for this bird, 3 tablespoons of sugar and 1 teaspoon of salt to 1 liter of water and see if you can use an eyedropper, or the 1cc syringe to slowly, a few drops at a time, get some fluids into this birds, tilt the head very slightly down (100 drops at a time, this will be about 5mL) do this every hour for the next three hours. Did you not notice this growth a number of days ago?

Karyn


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## rum175

i noticed it a week ago and took to a local vet. it took a while to find a bird vet. Most of them are dog vets here. this vet adviced me to use the following. 

1. Shondrox (vet)
2. Kiskin (ointment for external use.)

It didnt work effectively and it stopped intake for the last 24 hours and started getting weak. I tried to catch hold of the same vet but he left for the day and tomorrow being a sunday it suddently became an emergency. 

I will give sugar and salt mixed water as you said. What about giving medicines.


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## rum175

Shondrox contains Cefadorxil


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## rum175

Flagyl is 400mg
Trimethoprim (160Mg) and Sulphamethoxazole (800mg)


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## rum175

i have 1cc syringe also


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I will give sugar and salt mixed water as you said. What about giving medicines.


OK, I understand, you been trying to get this bird well again, but the people just did not know what they were dealing with or the correct medicines to treat it. I need to know the strength of Flagyl (most likely be 250mg or 500mg) and the Trimethoprim/Sulfa (most likely 400/80mg, for a 480mg pill). The Cefadorxil is a broad spectrum antibiotic (a cephalosporin) and would be helpful for bacterial issues but would be of no use against canker, the Trimethoprim/Sulfa will be a better choice for bacterial issues.

Karyn


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## Dobato

I see you posted the strengths, give me a few minutes. How badly blocked is the mouth, can this bird swallow anything at all?


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## rum175

Thanks Dear Karyn, I am trying my best to save. My 11 yrs old daughter is so fond of it. 

Yes this vet doesn't know what he was doing though he appear like a pro. 

Metronidazole is 400mg
Trimethoprim (160Mg) and Sulphamethoxazole (800mg)


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## rum175

i tried to see it mouth but could not figure it out. i hope it can swallow liquids or liquid diet.


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## rum175

sure wait for your advice


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## rum175

tks a ton for all the help.


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## Dobato

For the Flagyl (Metronidazole), I want you to crush one of the 400mg pills as fine as you can and add 4mL of honey to this stir very well and I then want you to fill the 1cc syringe to the full mark with this mixture, this will be to the 10th line 1cc/mL (this will contain 100mg of Metronidazole). I want you to slowly give your little one this medicine a drop or two at at time until gone. In 12 hours I want you to give this little one the same amount again, 1cc of this (100mg), then after that, every 12 hours I want you to give 0.25cc (this is to between the second and this line, 1/4 of the 1cc syringe, 25mg). 

I want you also crush a second of the Flagyl pills and add 5mL of warm water, and try and dissolve it the best you can, as Metronidazole does not like to dissolve real well in water, do your best. I want you to get a small brush, I use an old makeup brush (cleaned and washed of course) and use this liquid to "paint" the growth area, inside and outside of mouth with this. If the area still has some of the Kiskin ointment on it, wash this off with a little warm, soapy water on a cloth, as this will block the Metronidazole liquid from penetrating, do this every time you give the oral Metronidazole (every 12 hours).

I will post the instructions for the Trimethoprim/Sulfa in a few minutes, but get going with the Metronidazole, as this is the most important medicine right now.

Karyn


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## rum175

Thanks a ton once again. Will start this medication in next few minutes. What about sugar and salt mixed water?


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Thanks a ton once again. Will start this medication in next few minutes. What about sugar and salt mixed water?


Yes, this little one will need the hydration fluids, you can give some right away, to get some fluids into him/her, as it will take you a little bit to get the meds mixed up. Give the fluids, as mentioned, every hour or so until you get 15-20mL of fluids into this bird over the next 3-4 hours. Also while you are give the fluids/meds we need to figure out how blocked things are (inside of mouth and entrance to the esophagus), as this will determine what we have to do to get food/nourishment into this bird.

Karyn


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## rum175

Sure will do as you said. I will update you in next 30 mins.


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## Dobato

For the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, you have what are called double strength pills so we need to cut one of these evenly in half. Take this 1/2 a pill and again, crush it up as very fine as you can and the add 10mL of honey to this (this will be 2 cooking teaspoons, must be a cooking teaspoon, not a common flatware teaspoon to measure this way), stir this very well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir again, and I want you to give your little one 0.20cc of this every 12 hours (this is the second line of a 1cc syringe). Stir well before each use and keep in the refrigerator.

Karyn


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## rum175

I finshed one round of hydration fluid and one round of Flagyl. It is able ot swallow with little difficulty. 

But i noticed couple of blacl color fleas on the ground next to my pegion. I am not sure they reside on it like parasites or came from somewhere else. Is there anything i can do for possible fleas?


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I finshed one round of hydration fluid and one round of Flagyl. It is able ot swallow with little difficulty.
> 
> But i noticed couple of blacl color fleas on the ground next to my pegion. I am not sure they reside on it like parasites or came from somewhere else. Is there anything i can do for possible fleas?


After you get the next round of hydration fluid into your little one I want you mix up some sugar water (1 teaspoon or sugar or honey to 60mL of water) and give 5mL (one teaspoon) of this, instead of the next round (3rd) of hydration fluid, it will give the bird a boost in energy. If you could get say two of the sugar water (you would alternate these with hydration fluids) in and 3-4 of the hydration fluid in a day's time, this will help us buy a bit of time to figure out things food wise.

If you where on this side of the world, you could up something like in the link below at almost anywhere, but since you are in India I am not sure what is available to you and most important, safe to use on birds. We do have some members in India who may be able to help with this.

http://www.petco.com/product/102342/8-in-1-Ultra-Care-Mite-And-Lice-Bird-Spray.aspx

Karyn


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## rum175

Sure I will do as you adviced about hydration fluids. I went through this spray and will try it here and I might get it. Thanks for all the help. I may trouble you tomorrow once again if I have any doubts. It is 1:30 AM here in india. I wish you nice weekend. Take care.


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Sure I will do as you adviced about hydration fluids. I went through this spray and will try it here and I might get it. Thanks for all the help. I may trouble you tomorrow once again if I have any doubts. It is 1:30 AM here in india. I wish you nice weekend. Take care.


I check the forum pretty often when I am involved with helping a sick bird in a thread, so if you have any concerns or questions at any time, please ask them. You have a good weekend too and I hope your darling is a little brighter in the morning.

Karyn


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## rum175

Dear Karyn, thanks for spending so much of time and trying to help my darling. It is little brighter today morning. I gave one more round of hydration liquid. 

Have a nice day.

Ramana


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Dear Karyn, thanks for spending so much of time and trying to help my darling. It is little brighter today morning. I gave one more round of hydration liquid.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> Ramana


Hi Ramana, I was hoping you would say a little brighter this morning, this little one's problem would have been much simpler to fix days ago, but we will do our best from where we are now. The biggest thing right now is to keep give fluids through the day and also to give a few rounds of the sugar water for energy. We are being quite aggressive in her treatment which should stop the canker from progressing any further, then we just have to make sure we do what we can to give her body a chance to heal itself. Just to warn you, there may,or may not be, a fair amount of damage done to this little one's beak, hard to tell from the photos, so what you can do to borrow a camera today that will allow you to take some good, clear, close-up shots, as we are going to be relying on your photos to plot the best course of action for your darling.

Karyn


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## rum175

Thanks Karyn. Indeed there is some good progress and it is little active this morning. I woke up bit early and gave one round of sugar water already. I will start the Trimethoprim/Sulfa course in next few minutes.

I will get you clear pictures of its beak. My sony 10 mega pixel cam will arrive today and it will get us better pictures. I will post them by Sunday Morning (UST)

Now there is a ray of hope for my darling through your help. I dont know how to thank you enough for this support.


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## Dobato

Sounds good, will wait for better photos later.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Hi rum175,



Yes - we need clearer images, including good, well lit, in focus, fairly close up images of both sides of his Face/Profile, and, some good clear, close ups of whatever there are for fresh poops.

This does appear to be Canker which is located in the upper Beak and Sinuses possibly, and, likely, he has it in other areas of his system also.


Can you obtain a substance called "DMSO"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide



Also, see if you can get some Pediatric Urinary Catheters in No. 8, and, No. 10 French ( this is the size ). Get the clear Silicone bases kind, which have a socket on one end, that then fits on to a plain tip Sryinge.

Also get a few 10 Milli Litre, average, plain, usual, plain tip Syringes.


Over here, there are so called Hoe Medical Supply Businesses which carry all sorts of Catheters and Syringes and so on.
I have no idea what the situation is where you are, but, people's needs are of course the same anywhere, so, there ought to be some sources within reach.


You wil also need Metronidazole, or Ronidazole or Dimetridazole, or, some Anti-Ptorozoal Medicine, and, I htink you have obtained the 'Flaygl', which is one of the Trade Names for 'Metronidazole, so, that is good.

Ideally, you would also wish to have some wide spectrum Antibiotics, such as Enroflaxyn or the triple Sulfas or both even.


Futher instruction and details will follow...but, for now, you need to get those items; The Pediatric Urinary/Urethral Catheters in No. 8 French and No. 10 French, of the clear, soft, Silicone sort...and, the plain tip, 10 mL Syringes.

Be very definite and do not permit a sales person to sell you the wrong size or kind of item.


Lastly, has anyone explained how to arrange a 'Burrito Bird'?


You will need to learn to do this.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## rum175

Thanks Phil. It is very kind of you to take time for this good cause. 

I will try to findout what mentioned here and wait for advice from Karyn and you. 

I used a soft towel and wrapped it on my darling before feeding him hydration fluids and medication. I will learn more about it next one hour as tossed a right term for it 

Thanks once again for all the help.


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Thanks Phil. It is very kind of you to take time for this good cause.
> 
> I will try to findout what mentioned here and wait for advice from Karyn and you.
> 
> I used a soft towel and wrapped it on my darling before feeding him hydration fluids and medication. I will learn more about it next one hour as tossed a right term for it
> 
> Thanks once again for all the help.


Ramana, I asked Phil to help out with your darling, as we have worked together in the past on a number of cases, with some good success, and we hoping for the same here.

Karyn


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## rum175

Dear Karyn,

Thanks for brining Phil into this. I will procure what Phil recommended in next few hours.

Have a good night sleep.

Ramana


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## pdpbison

Hi rum175, 


Order or importance presently -

We need good images showing close ups of his freshest poops/urates.

Good images showing his profiles for both sides, and, even some views from avove.


You need to acquire the impliments and additional medicines ( "DMSO" ) outlined.

We will go form there then.

Can he drink presently, if his Beak is guided into tepid or slightly less than tepid Water?

Do you have access to any Farm or Feed Stores? These would sell "DMSO", and also would sell packets of electrolytes, very inexpensive, usually a 1000 Gramme Packet used for making 55 Gallons, and, typically, these contain supplimental Vitamins also, and, would be ideal for his situation for getting him rehydrated, and, for contributing to his nourishment.

You will need a small, Electric Coffee Grinder, and this will be used for grinding suitable Seeds and small Berries into a powder fine enough for when mixed with Water, to pass through the Catheter. You may have to seive the formula through a small Screen of some sort to ensure no clogs will impede the formula passing through the Catheter.

The small 'Clam Shell' type Screens used for loose Tea Leaves, when making Pots of Tea, would work fine for this.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## rum175

Dear Phil

I will take few good pictures from all angles and send it to you. My camera will arrive in next 5-6 hours. It is with my wife who is travelling. She will be here in next few hours.

We do not have many pet shops or pet pharmacys here but I am sure we can get DMSO and electrolytes.

I do have a electric grinder and screens used for tea leaves at home. 

I hope these items will be good enough for us to start tube feeding. 

Regards

Ramana


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## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


Sounds very good then!


We should see what kinds of suitable Seeds are possible - 


Some Seed kinds which come to mind - 

Oat Groats

Sunflower Seed 'Kernals' ( no shell ) which are raw, and, unsalted.

Flax Seeds ( should be fresh ones, chewy, not brittle or dry ).

White Safflower Seeds

Millet Seed

Milo seed or kindred, Sorgum Seed, etc

Corn of the kind used to make 'Pop Corn'.

Small dried whole Peas




Berries - 

Goji Berries

Red or Black Currants

Elder Berries

Dried Lingon Berries

Dried dark sour or dark Cherries.

Really, any of the small, dried kinds of Berries which people like to eat.

They must not be 'Sulfured' ( containing or preserved with Sulfites, Sulfates, Sulfur Dioxide, etc or other preservatives ) though, so be careful.

Maybe stay away from dried Greek Figs though as lots of the Japanese Radiation ended up settling on the Fig Harvests of that region, and, far as I heard, the Figs got sold same as ever.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison

In a seperate post please, bring me up to speed on -

How long you have had this Bird

What you recall for poops up till now, as far as roughly how many a day, and, what they looked like, how large or small.

Can he drink by himself if his Beak is guided to a Tea Cup of tepid Water? Which is to ask, would he drink willingly, "Like a Horse" if so guided?

Can you have him set up so his Cage or Box bottom is layered in White Paper Towels, in order to best observe and count the day's poops? changing the Paper Topwels each morning then.

Do you have any way to weigh him? And if not, would you say he feels heavy, or, light in the Hand? Or somewhere in-between?



Phil
Lv


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## rum175

I have the following seeds with us:

Sunflower kernals
Plax Seeds
Corn Seeds
Dired Green Peas

However, we dont get berries here. I live in southern part of india and whether is like texas whether in US. We dont get any berries here. I do have few raisins, almods and cashew nuts if needed.

Please advice.

Few minutes back I observed that this one is able to drink little bit of water (suger and salt mixed) by itself but still unable to eat anything.


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## pdpbison

Okay...

Well, if he seems to be able to drink on his own, you may as well allow him to have his own Cup of Water so he can drink as he likes.


Now, I recall you had mentioned that you had wrapped him in a small cloth at some point.

To do this - set a small Cloth or very small Towel across your legs, behindd your knees, as you sit.

A good size for the Cloth or small Towel, would be 12 inches by 12 inches.

If nothing of this size is handy, cut this size from something larger. Turkish Towelling or Terry Cloth is what I prefer, but, any sort of soft Cloth is fine.

I generally use a small Towel which is used for Washing one's Face and so on, called over here, a 'Wash Cloth', which is terry Cloth, and, tends to be about a foot square, so, these tend to be perfect just as they are.



Have it so the corners are at a diagonal to you, so, corners are toward and away from you, and, to the right and the left.

Fold the coner closest to you, and, the corner farthest from you, fold these corners in toward the center so the cloth is about four inches in depth there, and, wide of course across the right to left.


Gently arrange his Legs so that they are brought back parallel to his Tail, against his Body, and, press him this way into the center low area of how the Cloth is, as it is across your Legs, behind your knees...legs together as you sit, there will be a low area then, from the space between your knees...so, press him into this low area, facing you, so his Feet are just sticking out past the folded farther part, where you had folded the 'corner' over.

Then take the left side flap, and, fold it over him firmly, and, then do the same with the right...not too tight of course, but, snug-enough.

This then is your 'Burrito', and, sitting, under a good bright Light or Lamp, you 'spigot' him vertically right behind your Knees, thus allowing you to hold him this way, in a vertical positoin, while having both Hands free.


Very gently see if he will allow you to open his Beak.

Explain to him what you wish to do - you wish to open his Beak in order to look into his Mouth, to investigate the conditions there.

Explain to him specifically that n wishing to help him generally, you also need to be able to examine this area specifically in order to help him with this issue.

He is very well aware of having the troubles he has, and, by now, I am confident he understands that you wish to help him and have been helping him and offering succour, and, now particulrly, you need to emphacise and communicate to him that you need his co-operation for the things you need to do to help him, to follow now.



He may resist, or he may feel confused about this and not understand what you want or what you are trying to do, but, remain gentle, and, continue to try, using vocal tones and persuasion and narrative, to coax him to allow you to do it.

Pause if need be, and bring your hand close to your own Mouth and open your mouth widely, and, in effect demonstrate what you are asking him to do or to let you do, with him.

Wash your hands well of course before handling his face or Beak, and, of course, keep your Hands away from your own face, eyes, mouth, and so on during these examinations/procedures, and, then wash your Hands well, after.

Not that what he has is contageous to people, it is not - every human Mouth already has the same or similar Organisms he is presently infected with - but, just observe these basic protocols, because that is what one does in general regard for all concerned.



He may allow you to open it up as far as it can open presently, which, given the inflammation and infection located there, might not be very far at all, so, you will have to see.

If it can not open very far, then, find ways of arranging the Light to be able to see in there as best you can.


Do not force anything, and, bear in mind, the connective tissues there may be weakened and damaged by the infection, so, you especially require his willingneess and his co-operation in this instance, compared to a Bird who has no infection there, where, one in a normal Pigeon one may be a little more forceful to impose upon them in opening their Beak.

So, be gentle, expect it may require a little while of repeated effort, and, determine how far you can open the Beak with his consent, and, in opening it, under a good strong Light source, look in there critically, and, see what can be noted about his Throat, his Mouth in general, and, the roof of his Mouth also.


Healthy tissues on there would be a sort of 'Shell Pink'.

His may be purple, pink, or both, and, there may be foreign inflamitory debris adhering, which would be of a dull greyish white color, or, of a dull yellow color.

Do not attempt to interfere with or remove any such debris, if you see it there, but, merely look carefully and note if it is present, and, evaluate as best you can, whether his Throat proper, is free of such debris.

After this, with the pads of your finger tips, gently feel the entire length of his Neck, and, see if you can note any swelling anywhere along there. Ideally, you will want him to relax enough for a full neck extention, in which possibly someone else could gently hold his Head up as high as it can go, as you palpate his Neck.

Offer numerous positive compliments and praise for his co-operations, and 'Positive Mirroring' and expressions toward him in how well he is working with you...and make simple positive narratives about how there are things to be done, and, how these things will help him in getting well...and, so far so good.



And let us know.


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## rum175

- We live in an apartment in a place called Hyderabad, India. 
- We found this bird one month back infront of our apartment. 
- Not sure what might have happend. It could be motor vehicle accident or cat attack. 
- It was strugling on ground and unable to fly. 
- We brought it inside and examined it. It had a small injure beneath of its right wing. a small injure though. It lost tail feathers and feathers on his middle back. Feathers on wings were in good shape.
- It was unable to use its right leg and it was limping. Its left leg and left wing were perfectly alright.
- We didnt use any medicines for first three weeks. It was able to eat and drink right from the day we found it.
- It recovered well and started roaming around inside the house thought it could not fly.
- It started developing a swollent beak a week back
- I took it to a local vet and he adviced me to use 1. Shondrox (which contains Cefadorxil) 2. Kiskin (ointment for external use.)
- Those medicines were not effective and this bird stopped intake and no pooping from Saturday morning to Saturday midnight. I came into this forum for help. 
- I gave sugar+salt water couple of times 15 ml every time and then medicatation as adviced by Karyn. 
- It appeared little active today morning (sunday) and could drink little bit of water by itself willingly. 
- It pooped couple of times. watery and little green poop. 

I hope these details are useful.


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## pdpbison

Yes...these details are useful.

Canker can locate in many areas of their Body, and, can arise from periods of stress, and, stress of course is something which often goes along with having been injured or having escaped a preditor with injury, and or soon after, being in new surrounds with strange Creatures, even if they are kind.

So, it can occur in it's way, soon after any of various mis-adventures or injuries...and, how fast it develops, or what forms it assumes, will vary.

In his case, where-ever else it may be in his system, it does appear so far, to be in his upper Beak.

Most Vets, even Avian Vets, even the most expensive, prestigious, Board Certified Avian Vets, would not recognise Canker nor have any practical regimens for it's address, and or would be useless for answering or managing or outlining or remediating the condition your Pigeon is suffering.

This is just the way it is.


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I gave sugar+salt water couple of times 15 ml every time and then medicatation as adviced by Karyn.


Ramana, I hope this is a typo or just a bit of a language thing, the 15mL part, as I advised you to give 5mL at a time until you got a total of 15-20mL over 3-4 hours, not 15mL of fluids at any one time.

Off to bed, you are in good hands with Phil.

Karyn


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## rum175

Thanks Karyn. it was not a typo. i indeed gave 15 ml. I will give 5 ml next time onwards. Yes Phil is guiding me very well. Thanks for referring him. 

Have a good night sleep. 

Ramana


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Thanks Karyn. it was not a typo. i indeed gave 15 ml. I will give 5 ml next time onwards. Yes Phil is guiding me very well. Thanks for referring him.
> 
> Have a good night sleep.
> 
> Ramana


Well, since he seems none the worse for wear, then I guess no harm done. For now, we want to give small amounts of fluids, every hour or two so over the course of the day (say about 12 hours) so he will get a grand total of 20-30mL of fluids to hydrate, give energy (the few 5mL rounds of sugar water) and flush his system of toxins given off by this infection. Once we get tube feeding going this will change. Plus, you may not really need to give fluids, if he is drinking on his own (please monitor this very carefully to make sure he is drinking enough, provide the hydration fluid instead of plain water in a dish for him to drink) and just need to give a few 5mL rounds of sugar water for energy.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

yes i am observing it closely. It is in my room. It took water by itself once. I wish it repeats that.


Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> yes i am observing it closely. It is in my room. It took water by itself once. I wish it repeats that.
> 
> Ramana


Best if you can to measure exact amounts, so you will know he is actually getting fluids down and not just dipping his beak in the fluids, but not much is going down. If you find the fluid level in his drinking dish is not really going down, this will tell you he is not getting much down on his own.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

That is good idea. I will monitor that measurement. Last time when it tried, I observed it and it really sucked water and gulped it. I could notice his neck muscles expanding while it was drinking water.

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Also be careful about trying to give him real food, as he may try and eat, but not be able to swallow and the food can then block his airway causing him distress or may even cause death. Good, sounds like fluids are going down., but do still measure things and still give sugar water.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Yes now i poured sugar+salt water of 100ml in his cup. Will measure the remaining water after couple of hours.

Isn't it midnight there? You may please have some nice sleep. I will have good pictures ready for you and Phil when you wakeup on Sunday morning.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

This Pigeon has a very serious and life Threatening condition which is typically beyond the reach or range of what an Avian Vet would be familiar with, or, be able to invent or manage praxis for.

There is a lot to this, which has to be done correctly, if one is to manage a recovery.

One thing for you to do, in looking in to his Mouth, is to distinguish the Throat ( which is at the far back ) from his Trachia ( which is his Wind Pipe, through which he Breathes )

This distinction is crucial for situations in which one is intending to Tube Feed the Bird.

So, look very carefully and critically in his Mouth, noting it's structure, and, make sure you are able to clearly distinguish the Throat or Esophagus proper...from his Trachia/Wind-Pipe.

The Throat is at the far back...the Trachia is just behind his Tongue, and not very far in at all.




It is possible this Pigeon will loose his upper Beak, so, be extra careful and gentle in efforts of opening it, since it may already be weak.

It is possible he may retain his upper Beak, and, that the damage already there would not have gone so far as to cause it to fall off, in which case, still be very gentle of course, but, it may all heal up just fine and be a full recovery.

Right now, we do not know how far the infection has effected or damaged or eradicated the tissues which connect the upper Beak to his Head.


If he looses his upper Beak, but, survives the illbess otherwise, he of course could never be released back into the Wild, but, he can learn to eat and self feed just fine, with a little guidence and support and experiment using a Tea Cup for holding small whole Seeds...and, he could very well live a long and happy life there after, as a member of your Family.



I have to go to bed soon, but, I will check in off and on till that time.


----------



## Dobato

Just one last check for the night, did you give the second dose of 100mg of Metronidazole (Flagyl) and did you start the Trimethoprim/Sulfa?

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Dobato said:


> Well, since he seems none the worse for wear, then I guess no harm done. For now, we want to give small amounts of fluids, every hour or two so over the course of the day (say about 12 hours) so he will get a grand total of 20-30mL of fluids to hydrate, give energy (the few 5mL rounds of sugar water) and flush his system of toxins given off by this infection. Once we get tube feeding going this will change. Plus, you may not really need to give fluids, if he is drinking on his own (please monitor this very carefully to make sure he is drinking enough, provide the hydration fluid instead of plain water in a dish for him to drink) and just need to give a few 5mL rounds of sugar water for energy.
> Karyn



Water Dish or Bowl or Cup ( I usually use a regular old fashioned Tea Cup or flat bottomed low-ish Coffee Cup, and, twist-tie the Handle to the Cage side ) need to be no less than two inches deep.

Especially for him, since he will have to immerse his whole Beak up to his forehead, to drink...


----------



## pdpbison

Dobato said:


> Also be careful about trying to give him real food, as he may try and eat, but not be able to swallow and the food can then block his airway causing him distress or may even cause death. Good, sounds like fluids are going down., but do still measure things and still give sugar water.
> 
> Karyn



Yes...for now, no 'solid' foods, no whole Seeds of any size, as they could clog him and cause problems or fatality.

He will be getting what in effect are liquid Gruels or 'Formula' made from finely ground Seeds and possibly some other ingredients.


Very glad to hear he can drink!

That is good...


Raw, simple, unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar would be good if you can get some...or, any plain, actual, Apple Cider Vinegar...can you get this where you live?


And, are there 'Health Food Stores' where you live?


Please forgive me, but I really do not know much about India!




Waiting for images -


----------



## rum175

Yes I did give Flagyl second dose and gave first dose of Trimethoprim/Sulfa. 

I am using s stainless steel flat and low based bowl for water. My darling is better than it was yesterday night and taking a nap.

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

rum175 said:


> Yes I did give Flagyl second dose and gave first dose of Trimethoprim/Sulfa.
> 
> I am using s stainless steel flat and low based bowl for water. My darling is better than it was yesterday night and taking a nap.
> 
> Ramana


As long as the Water Bowl is at least two Inches deep...should be alright...two to three inches is ideal.


----------



## rum175

Yes water bowl is around 3 inches.

We do have few health stores here and I might get Apple Cider Vinegar.

You may not know much about India but the fact is that you are trying your best to save my darling. I couldn't see my pegion suffering. I was afraid that I might lose it but now I have hopes. I wish to see it soaring into high skies soon. Thanks for being with us.


----------



## pdpbison

Very good...

I have to get some sleep now.

I will log in again in the morning.


Post those various images as soon as you can.


----------



## rum175

Sure. Please have a nice sleep. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


I have to go to Work for a while across town, so I will not be able to access my Computer for a while.

How goes as for posting the images?

And...

Have you had a chance to examine his Mouth and Throat? And to orient yourself regarding his Trachia ( Wind Pipe ) and his Esophagus ( Throat ) ?


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Good morning Karyn

I am about to post pics. Some how this forum's website is down for a while and hence this delay. 

There are couple of good news though. It started taking water (sugar+salt mixed) by itself willingly. It took almost 4-5 times in the last 5 hours. Every time it could take 7-10 ml of water.

It is able ot move around now and able to stretch its neck. 

I checked its throat it is clear. The problem is only external as far as I observed

I will post pics shortly. You may please go ahead with your daily activities. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

These are some of the pics. I will post more.


----------



## rum175

I tried to procure what phil recommended but could not get them. It is being sunday here and some of these business establishments are closed. I will get them tomorrow. Meanwhile I tried to feed it through little bit of liquid diet and it swalloed it very well. I made powder out of sunflower seeds and local lenthils and mixed them in water. I used a 5 ml syrenge without needle and slowly pushed this liquid into its mouth. It swalloed it very well. 

Both the medicines recommended by Karyn were very effective and I can see good progress in its behaviour. It is getting better as time passes.

I tried to post few more pics but my maximum upload limit has been reached so could not do that.

I gave third dose of Flagyl and second dose of Trimethoprim this evening. I am surprised to see it drinking more water by itself. 

I will wait for further instructions from both of you. Because I could not get Catheters I had to try with syrenge to feed little bit of liquid diet (Sunflower kernals + Dired Green Peas Powder in water. It swalloed it gracefully. 

Please advice


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, these photos are so much better, now we can get a much better idea of what is going on. Need more photos of the left side of his face, from exactly from the side and not shooting down on an angle at all. Is his top and bottom beak locked together by the growth or can he open it a bit on his own, but not fully close it? Be, very, very careful of any manipulations of the area because part of what this infection does is cause tissue and bone structure in the area to be compromised, and destroyed, so what you end up with is that it is necrotic tissue actually holding things in place, so there is no real structure or strength left. Here is a link below showing where a pigeon's windpipe (trachea) is located, at the base of the tongue, the passage just behind it (kind of closed in the photo) is the esophagus, that leads down to the birds digestive system. Do you best to get some shots of the inside of this guy's mouth, keeping in mind the warning I just gave about trying to force things open, best very careful when touching this area, as the beak may come off in your hand.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=526791&postcount=74mana

I am glad he is able to at least still drink well on his own and started to get a bit of strength and movement back. I want you to make sure that you continue to paint all area around the face/beak/nostrils, both sides and into the mouth that you see that looked to be infected with the liquid/water Metronidazole (careful not to get it into the eye). All following doses of the Metronidazole (one should be due about now) will now be 0.25cc (1/4 of the 1cc syringe, 25mg) to be given twice a day (every 12h), make sure you stir the suspension well before drawing each dose (and of course continue with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa every 12h as well).

Be careful giving fluids by syringe, just a few drops at a time, it takes longer, but is much safer for the bird. Yes, if you can manage for now to get some ground up food into him by syringe do so, again very slowly, a very little at a time, give him time to swallow each little bit, before giving more. 

Karyn


----------



## rum175

I tried to post few more pics but unable to do so due to maximum upload limitation. Is there any alternative?


Upper and lower beak appear to be locked but actually it can open them without any trouble but unable to close them completely though.

I painted its beak with Flagyl powder mixed in water thrice so far. I didnt see anything inside the mouth so avoided painting it.

I gave very little of liquid diet so that it doesnt feel inconvenient. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I tried to post few more pics but unable to do so due to maximum upload limitation. Is there any alternative?
> 
> 
> Upper and lower beak appear to be locked but actually it can open them without any trouble but unable to close them completely though.
> 
> I painted its beak with Flagyl powder mixed in water thrice so far. I didnt see anything inside the mouth so avoided painting it.
> 
> I gave very little of liquid diet so that it doesnt feel inconvenient.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


You need to delete all of the first photos you posted, they are of no use and are taking up space. On the menu bar near the top of the page you will see a list starting with UserCP, click on UserCP, then there is a menu list "Control Panel" on the left side of the page, at the bottom if this list is a link called "Attachments", click this and you will then see a list of all of your photo attachments, check off and delete all photos except the last three. Another hint, when uploading more photos, instead of closer to 100kb in size, try and re-size them to keep them at 30kb, this will allow you to upload more.

Also found an old thread that pretty well lays out all of the issues that will be about the same with your darling (looks like Phil was involved in this old thread too). Please make sure you click on the link in the very first post by TAWHatley to see the similarities with your bird, except your bird looks to have both top and bottom areas of the beak involved. Glad to hear the top and bottom are not fully locked together.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/help-needed-for-canada-pigeon-20503.html

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Thanks for that guidance. I am new to these kind of forums and now I understood how to manage my account.

Please see these three pics. One is left side view and other two are its inside view of mouth (or beak).

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Dear Karyn

All medication doses are given for the day. It retired to bed and taking a nap now. It is 1:00 AM here and I will also take a nap. Please take time and advice further steps. Tomorrow I will get DMSO and other items. 

Have a good day

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


Very good work...


Please also post some good close-up well lit images showing his freshest poops.

The "DMSO" permits Medicated Solutions to sink into and permiate Tissues, thus allowing topical applications to reach into infections which systemic Medicines sometimes can not effectively reach.

We will advise you on how to prepare the Solution, once you have obtained the 'DMSO'.

'DMSO' is ot itself a Medicine, but a sort of carrier, and, as far as I know, will not require a prescription.

It is widely used in both Livestock and people for various things, and should be avaoilable in your area.




Since he is drinking on his own, of course there is no need now to have to adminster Liquids.

It appears his Tongue is still present and not involved in the infection, so, that is good, and, will permit him to eat or swallow the formula as you have been administering it, or, possibly to be hand fed some 'solid foods' sometime soon, once we feel that this may be safe to do.

If any Health Food Stores in your area, see if you can get dried Goji Berries and the raw, unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar.

I imagine you would have Hot Curry Powders on hand - we may elect to incorporate some of those into his formula, once you have obtained the Catheters.

They are very good for assisting various systemic Medicines to perfom better, and, to improve cirulatory function in the smaller Capillaries and to reduce inflammation, as well as having anti0biotic properties also.



For now, if he is interested, and if he is showing enthusiasm and co-operation for being fed, and, you feel comfortable to manage it, you may as well continue giving small meals off and on, of the Sunflower Seed Kernal and Pea powder mixed with Water.

Just be very very careful that as this is being dispensed from the Syringe, with no Catheter to allow it being dispensed directly in to his Crop proper, that none of it is permitted to be directed toward or into his Trachia/Wind Pipe.


I am just Home for a little while, then I have to go back to Work for a while.


I am sorry, but I do not recall noticing if you had given him a name?



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato

As Phil has said, glad the tongue and the choanal area (the roof) of the mouth look to be in good shape. I know you may not see anything obvious inside the mouth, so have avoided painting in there, but I would still like you to carefully do this (don't overload the brush with the Metronidazole liquid) so this mouth area is directly exposed to the liquid Metronidazole.

Please let us know how you make out with the items Phil has asked you to pick up. It's good it seems we don't have the concern we once did for hydration, but don't forget to give the sugar/or honey water, as this will greatly aid this little one with energy.

Once more a reminder, as Phil has also mentioned, be very careful when giving the food or also the sugar water, nice and slow, no rush, so nothing accidentally ends up going down the windpipe.

One last reminder you should now be giving a dose of 0.25cc (25mg) of the Metronidazole, twice a day, instead of the first two dose amounts, which were 100mg loading doses (done to get a large amount of medicine into this bird's system ASAP).

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Dear Phil and Karyn

I could have stayed long yesterday night but no rest for the last two days so retired to bed before I received any reply from both of you. 

I am glad that the tongue and the choanal area are in good shape. May be that is why it is able to swallow water and liquid diet easily. 

I hope I will get DSMO, Catheters and apple cider vinegar today. I may not get goji berries here in local market but we do have hot curry powders at home.

I am feeding him liquid diet carefully in small portions and slowly so that it swallows it properly.

After first two doses of Metronidazole i reduced the mg as you suggested third dose was 25mg only. 

One year back we found one baby pigeon and we rescued it. We named it as "Drizzle" and took care of him for two months. When it was ready to fly, we allowed it to get into a flock of pigeons so that it leads a beautiful pigeon life. 

We didn’t name this one yet. We are thinking of naming it as "Karyn". This bird is still alive due to Karyn's help. This way we remember Karyn every time we see our bird. I am not sure about the gender of this bird yet and same with Karyn's name. It is tough to determine gender of a person by their name in some cases. In India it is easy. If I know an Indian name then easily I can determine that person's gender. 

Thanks to both of you once again.

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,



Poop/urate images!!!!!


This is important!!!


As is to make sure you are keeping him ( line the Cage bottom with White Paper Towels, and, change each Morning ) in a way where you can see and count and Photograph for Posting, the fresh poops for every 24 Hours.

How are you keeping him? Is he in a Cage? Or..?



Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

I will get those pics of its poop in next couple of hours. It was not taking proper diet so the frequency was less. I will count the frequency as well.

When i observed it was greenish watery semi solid poop.

I gave liquid diet twice in last 4 hours since morning. 5ml each time. So total 10 ml liquid diet has been given. I added few local lenthils to its liquid diet today along with Sunflower Kernals+Green Peas

It is still weak and unable to walk properly. 

We have a small pigeon house for it but we kept it outside in a spare room where we have very good ventilation and air flow.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 



Well...Poop images soon as you can please.

Likely he has been not too far above starving, and, with his illness, he is burning extra calories and reserves and needs more and better Nutrition.

I have not been able to guide on this as regard how much food per day, for want of the very crucial images of his freshest poops and urates, AND some clear idea of HOW MANY POOPS IN 24 HOURS he has been making in relation to how much food per day he has been getting.

Please, have him set up in a Cage, line it with White Paper Towels, post daily images of the poops, and, also, count them each morning before changing the Paper Towels.

Make sure he is out of any drafts or breezes, and, that he is defionitely warm.


Adequate Hydration, adequate Nutrition, supplimental Nutritives and 'cleansing' Fruit Based Nutritives containing important Antioxidants, are very important in situations such as his - or, their systems end up becoming toxic, and, this alone is a very heavy load to bear.

Without good images of his daily poops and urates, I have no way to gauge his processing in relation to intake, nor, to gauge toward evaluating how his digestive System, Liver, Kidneys, stages or states of various Infections primary, secondary, tertiary, and so on, are working, nor what they might be.

10 mL of liquid formula is likely about 3 or 4 mL of solid Food in suspension...for a Bird who would generally need eight or ten times that each day, to sustain himself.

Granted, one can not feed a sick Bird, as much as that Bird would usually eat...but, we have to try and get some sense of how his Digestive System is working, and what liabilities it is working under, in order to form opinions to guide you about how much TO feed, so he is getting an amount each day his system can handle, and, for him not to be starving.


Get some plain, unsweetened Apple Sauce if you can...this is especially good for Pigeons with his condition.



You will add this to his formula, using about 1/3rd Apple Sauce, and, 2/3rds formula.


Can you get fresh ripe Mangos in your area presently?

If so, and, if you can blend some to it could pass through the syringe, or, press the Juice out of it, and use the Juice, this would be very good to add also.



For the time being, it is safest to have him on a liquid formula diet, made from freshly ground Seeds, such as you have been, to which certain Fruit Juices or Sauces can be added, since his illness is known to occasion inflamitory debris in the digestive tract, which if it is above the Gizzard, can cause his upper GI to become blocked from eating Seeds.


If we can gauge the ease and speed with which his system is able to handle the Liquid Ground Seed formula diet, then, we can form an opinion about whether his system may be able to handle more, and, or, handle small whole Seeds sometime soon.


We need to form opinions on possible other illnesses which can be in the company of Canker, and, the Poop/Urate images beiong posted daily, and, your daily count of how many in the last 24 hours, are crucial for this.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

Dear Phil

Please see the latest pic of its Poop. I counted since morning it pooped 4 times since morning 8 AM to 3 PM today. That is 4 times in 7 hours. 

I am feeding him almost every 2 hours so it would be 8-9 times by end of today. 

We can get apple sauce and fresh mangos here. It is mango season now and we get wide variety of mangos here. We have papayas too here.

As you said, I can add 1/3rd portion of mango juice to 2/3rd portion of liquid diet formula.

Let me know if there is anything else that I need to do.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, I think it would be a great honor to have this sweet little one have my name, this is a first.

I will let Phil work with you on the nutrition and feeding part , but I did want to say that although the dropping(s) in the most recent photo you posted is not ideal by any means, it does show your little one is getting good hydration and has a fair amount of solids, so your are getting some food into her. It's going to take some time to bring her back, and there are still things that can go wrong, but we will try our best and hope things go as we plan.

Good job,

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


Oh very good then! - Glad to see the image, and, as Karyn mentions, glad to see that the poops are showing good hydration and passing of foods in what is likely a timely way.

Some Seeds, and, Peas particularly, make for poops which tend to resemble Split Pea Soup.

Other foods and Seed kinds of course make their own results.

If you can get unsweetened Apple Sauce, and, if you can convert the fresh ripe Mango flesh into a purree which will pass through the syringe...add about one part of each of these, so you have two parts - one of each - to every four parts of already prepared formula for the day.

I am not familiar with the variety of Mango kinds you would have there, but, any which are medium sweet should be fine I think.

If you know anyone versed in the Ayurvedic Medicine, possibly they could render an opinion on what Species of Mango, when ripe, is considered especially suited to what sorts of conditions, and, let me know?



This is totally flexible of course, but, that would put these two together as being close to one third of the formula.

Mangos and Apples are very nutritious and cleansing for one's system, and, this will do him good.


How many roughly 10 mL feeds of liquid formula per day, has he been getting?


Let us know as soon as you have obtained the DMSO?

This is very important for his Beak, that you will make a medicated solution ( which we will advise you to do ) for swabbing on to the afflicted area.



Best wishes!



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn and Phil, Good morning.

I just returned from shopping. I found ACV (american garden brand), apple sauce but not DSMO. I went to few pharmcy shops and they dont sell DSMO. So I visited couple fo chemical and lab equipment shops and found DSMO with them but the prob is that they sell it in large quantity. They have 5Lt containers so could not buy it. 

I will add mango juice and apple sauce in next round of diet as you prescribed. I am not sure how to use ACV. Please advice. 

We are giving liquid diet every two hours. So far we have given 5 times between 8AM to 8PM today. It is drinking water by itself. 

Dear Karyn: It is our pleasure to name it after your name. You are the lifeline for our Pigeon and you referred to Phil to us. We are all thankful to both of you.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


See if there are any places which sell supplies for small Farms, Livestock and so on.

They would tend to carry small Bottles of DMSO.

Also, try e-bay, or the internet generaly, and for e-bay, elect the mode for sellers in your local area or not too far away, and, see if small Bottles of it are for sale there on e-bay, where, if close enough, you could drive over and get it, or, if not close enough, they can simply Mail it.


You realy need to have it in order for the Medicines to be able to reach well enough into the Beak...systemic Medicines can not reach well enough into these Tissues/structures, and, Medicines applied topically without the DMSO can not penetrate/permiate well enough either.


Let us know how many poops per 24 hours he is making?


Do you understand that he has what is called a 'Crop' on the front of his Body, and, that this is where foods go initially? And that from there, the foods pass on to his Stomach and then Gizzard, and, that in the Gizzard, the foods are masticated and then passed on to the intestines for digestion.

Of course little to no mastication is needed for the diet he is on, but, we want you to be aware of his Crop, and, to be able to note if it should happen to be passing the food too slowly, or if the level of food in it is building up faster than it's rate of passing it.

8 feeds a day, of 10 mL, sounds very good, and, likely his system is passing this just fine, but, we just want you to be aware of what to look for, in case his system was not passiong it fast enough.

The Apple Cider Vinegar - add about 2 or 3 drops to a 10 mL Meal.

If he seems to object to this, then try adding only two, or one, since he is in effect having to eat and taste the formula.

The Vinegar helps the Metronidazole work better, and, also slightly acidifies his Crop to discourage unwanted kinds of Organisms from opportuning there.

I believe the Mango would help in these ways also.

You can also add a couple Drops of the ACV to his Water Cup for his Drinking Water.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil

I already researched little bit on DSMO online and will put more effort tomorrow to get it. I understand its criticality to this treatment and hope to get it ASAP.

It pooped 7 times in last 15 hours (8AM to 11PM today).

I will observe this rate of pooping and will do little more research on its digestive system online. 

I will start using ACV starting from tomorrow. We tried mango pulp and apple sauce today in its latest meal. It seems to be enjoying it. 

I will update its progress once again tomorrow (IST) morning.

Thanks

Have a good day.

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, if you check with the place that has the larger supplies of DMSO, there is a chance they may have either samples, or open stock around their premises that they could let you have an ounce of (30mL), no harm in asking for a favor, all they can do is say it's not possible.

Wouldn't mind seeing a new photo of the beak area each day, to gage process with it. Don't need a lot of shots, perhaps one like in post #64 of this thread.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Oh yeahhh, just one Ounce of 'DMSO' would be more than plenty. One only uses a few drops in a small amount of Solution, for it to extend the reach of the Medicines in topical applications.


Glad to hear he appearing to enjoy the Mango in his Formula!


I bet it does taste good! And, he likely senses it's value, too.

This will greatly help his system to be clearing itself of toxins built up from stress and illness and is very good for the immune system in general anyway.



Do you have Oat Groats, Millet Seed, Milo? Unpopped Pop Corn? If so, grind these up with just a few Sunflower Seed Hearts, using mostly the Seeds and just a few Sunflower Seed Hearts. Skip the dried Peas for a few days.

I would like to see what his poops will be looking like with those Seeds made into powder, for the formula...for those and the Mango pulp to be his diet for a few days.

The Sunflower seed Hearts are really very rich and have a lot of Oil or Fats in them, very good for Birds in small amounts, but, really a bit much for a Pigeon if more than just a few.

Peas or Lentils or the likes, of course make the poop appear like Split Pea Soup, which is fine, but, I want to see how his poops will be with these other Seed kinds, if possible.


I will check back soon...


Best wishes!



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn and Phil

Indeed I asked those two shops for little bit of DSMO but they could not help. I will try to procure it online.

I will post one more pic of its beak shortly. Initally before treatment the swalloen beak part appeared large and cheesy color but now after couple of days of medication, it turned into black and size is shrinking.I hope this is a good sign.

We do have oats and Millets here. Infact we were feeding it with rice, millets and lenthils before this canker prob. It was taking them by itself. So I will prepare a new formula as you said and try it next couple of days. I will post one pic of its poop in next 12 hours.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I will post one more pic of its beak shortly. Initally before treatment the swalloen beak part appeared large and cheesy color but now after couple of days of medication, it turned into black and size is shrinking.I hope this is a good sign. Ramana


Yes, this is a good sign, as this shows the medication is working and the infection is being cleared. The worry to come is just how much damage was done to the surrounding tissue, bone and beak structure from the infection. It may take a few weeks for us to be able to get a true idea of the extent of this. Just keep doing what you are doing for now, good job.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Thanks Karyn, 

I am still continuing the dosage of Metronidazole (25mg every 12 hours) and Trimethoprim/Sulfa (20mg every 12 hours). How long do you want me to use them? Please advice.

I will get a new pic of its beak when I clean it. I painted it with Metronidazole so pic may not be clear now. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Paint the area inside the upper Beak also, as best you can...
( if you have not been already ).

Course of meds for this would be at least five - six days, but likely more, depending.

Beaks do not get as much circulation as do other areas, so, longer is best in cases like this.

Newst poop images, when you have a chance.


----------



## rum175

I tried to pait inside but it didn't cooperate. 

Sure I will continue that medication until we are all satisified with its healing. 

I will get one pic of its poop in next few hours.

Thanks


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Thanks Karyn,
> 
> I am still continuing the dosage of Metronidazole (25mg every 12 hours) and Trimethoprim/Sulfa (20mg every 12 hours). How long do you want me to use them? Please advice.
> 
> I will get a new pic of its beak when I clean it. I painted it with Metronidazole so pic may not be clear now.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


As Phil has mentioned, we are going to keep the Metronidazole at the current dose until Thursday, this will make 5 days of high dose treatment ([email protected] and [email protected] q12h). On Friday, I want you to lower the dose down to 0.20cc (20mg) q12h for two more days, then to 0.15cc (15mg) q12h for what might be another week. Do not change the dosing or frequency of the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, this may need to run a few weeks as well. Is there any chance you can get a weight for this little one?

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

rum175 said:


> I tried to pait inside but it didn't cooperate.



"Burrito Bird" as described earlier...

Gently open the Beak a little, as much from the rear or root area, as possible.

Reach in from the sides as well as possible, and, see if you can paint the upper inside of the upper Beak.

Explain it to him, show him the Brush, demonstrate by opening your Mouth, then touch his Beak, stuff like that...he should let you do it...might take a few tries is all...


----------



## rum175

Sure, I will give a try once again today. I hope he cooperates. 

Thanks and regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 

Don't miss Karyn's Post at the end of Page 6...


Anyway, I often run into the 'Beak of Iron' with new arrive Pigeons whom I have to examine and look into their Throats and so on, and, I just work with them a little bit and try and get it across what I wm wanting to do and so on, and, they just need to understand it somehow. 

Of course in the Pigeon World, no one ever opens anyone else's Beak, so, it is an odd thing for them and they do not understand what we want with that usualy.

Since his upper Beak is possibly fragile, just be especially careful to avoid any leveraging from the front.

You can moisten your fingers in tepid Water, and, gently put your finger tips against the corners of his Mouth, sort of softly pinching it there between the pads of your Finger tips, so some of the slight moisture on your finger tips, seeps in, and, he will sort of go 'yum yum' with his Beak, making small motions, and, with this you can repeat it with a little more water being lef on your finger tip pads, and gently progress to getting some of your finger tips in to the rear sides of his Beak, and, sort of get it a little more open or hold it open with part of a finger tip in the Beak form the side, at the rear.

What is the solution you are using, to Paint the Beak? How much of the Solution do you have or what is it's volume?

Have you seen him open his Beak at any point?

I know it is presently somewhat less than closed fully, oweing to the inflammation aspect of the infection, but, if there is no infection or swelling/inflammation effecting the Lower Mandible Beak, if his Jaw Hinge area is alright and not effected, he shuold be able to open it fully.

As far as you can tell, there is no swelling or inflammation of the area where his upper Beak and forehead meet?



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil

This one is having inflammation on its upper beak (external side) where it meets forehead. However, the inflamation is subsiding. Lower beak is perfectly alright. It is able to open its mouth by itself. Couple of times I observed that. 

I am unable to hold at the rear due to inflammation. I am holding it in the middle portion. 

As suggested by KAryn, I am using Metronidazole tablet powder mixed in water to paint its beak. 

I will try to paint inside today per your guidelines.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


Of course, it is the lower Beak, the Mandible-Jaw, which opens and closes, just as with us, and, to which the gentle efforts for opening the Beak would in be directed.

Since the only convenient counter-part to leverage gently against, is the upper Beak, one can sort of take the rear area of the Beak betwen the pads of one's index finger and thumb, and, the thumb goed up, and, the index finger tip pad goes down, and, the Beak is open, and, one then slightly jams some of the thumb tip pad in to the rear side of the opening, and, this hilds the Beak open then, to look in or to do things in there.

I actually do this with my left hand, from behind their Head, with my thumb and index finger reaching around their Head...while, at the same time, I do a similar complimentary thing form the front with my right hand index finger tip and thumb tip, then, the left hand thumb tip is put slightly into the rear of the Beak opening on one side, and, my right hand is then free to do the procedure or as may be.



There are different ways of opening their Beak, and of course, one never pries or uses force, but, is gentle with it...

Once one is used to doing it, it is easy.

But, I recall from before I was used to doing it, or, before I had worked out the ways of doing it, openening a Beak, or persuading them to let me open it, was not easy for me.

Actually, almost none of any of this was easy in the beginning, and, it took me a long time to figure out how to do things, and, especially, how to do things where the Bird was co-operating and willing to go along with it, and, not to alienate or offend the Bird's sensibilities.

They do not seem to mind being in the 'Burrito' mode, long as it is done gently and they feel secure and are not being mashed or too tightly wrapped...and this is good of course, and, so many things would be difficult or impossible without that mode/technique...too.

When 'Spigotting' the 'Burrito' Bird vertically, just behind one's knees, of course one is only holding the Tail to abdomen area, and, nothing higher.


Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

May be I am little bit of nervous not to damage its beak and hence not able to paint inside. These guidelines are very useful. I try it today.

She is cooperating without "Burrito" option except that it shakes its head little bit when I try to open its beak. Somehow she is more cooperative today. Either it is weak to protest or understood that we are trying to do something good. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

This is the latest pic of its poop. It pooped 7 times yesterday (24 hours) and 4 times today starting from 8 AM -3PM sofar.

Some how it is appearing bit dull for the last 2 hours. It took 2 meals properly and swalloed it gracefully but not the third meal. It didnt bother to swallow it when I tried through syrenge. So I stopped giving the third meal.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Some how it is appearing bit dull for the last 2 hours. It took 2 meals properly and swalloed it gracefully but not the third meal. It didnt bother to swallow it when I tried through syrenge. So I stopped giving the third meal. Regards Ramana


Ramana, are you continuing to give the 5mL sugar/honey water 2-3 times a day, as well as the other solid food? It would be very helpful if we could get a weight on your little one.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I am using honey in its liquid diet and sugar in water along with salt. I hope that is sufficient. Please advice

I will get its weight in next few minutes.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Hello Karyn
> 
> I am using honey in its liquid diet and sugar in water along with salt. I hope that is sufficient. Please advice
> 
> I will get its weight in next few minutes.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


Ramana, there are two parts to what I was instructing before, the first is instead of plain water, to use hydration fluid as Karyn's drink fluid for the next little while. Instructions on how to make this fluid found here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=576845&postcount=9

The second was to give, for energy, some sugar or honey water, made by mixing 1 teaspoon of either sugar or honey to 60mL of water and giving 5mL of this 2-3 times over the day (say every four hours, over a 12h day).

Best you post up exact what you are mixing up to feed (exact measurements on each item in the mix), how often and how much of the mix, to make sure she is not getting to much honey/sugar.

Glad to hear you will be able to a weight for her.


Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I didn't give water mixed with Honey as I was using honey in its liquid diet. When it comes to water with sugar+salt, I followed your instructions. Only deviation is that itself was drinking from the bowl 2-3 times a day. Each time it was drining aproximately 7-9 ml. 

I will prepare a tracking sheet from tomorrow to see how much sugar or honey it is consuming. 

I tried to weigh it but could not. My weighing scale rounds off the weight to 100g. Please give me one day so that I get back to you with the exact weight.

Please see the attached pics. I cleaned the paint and took these pics. You can still see some paint deposits on its beak. 

I may be able to get the DSMO tomorrow. I found one vendor who may be able to deliver it in some quantities.

Please advice further steps.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

It's important that I get a rough idea today how much honey you are using/feeding.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Yesterday I used approximately 4-5 ml of honey in 100 ml of its liquid diet. We gave 8 times (10 ml each of liquid diet yesterday). So it might have consumed approximately 4 ml of honey yesterday.

Today I prepared the same formula except that I used millets instead of dried green peas as per Phil's advice. However it consumed this liquid diet only four times. It consumed first and second round gracefully but declined to take third serving so I stopped midway. It took fourth serving properly again. So it might have consumed 2 ml of honey today.

Please let me know if you need any additional details. Btw, how did you find its beak today.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Dear Phil

I didnt find any good youtubes on how to do "burrito bird". You may please broadcast one video on how to do this and its advantages, dos and donts. It is a great concept in rehabiliatating sick birds. Not many people know about it. People tend to do mistakes easily if they do not know the guidelines and without the demonistration.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

I was worried that you were feeding too much honey, not as bad as I thought, but with the amount of liquid food you are getting into her, it may still be a little high. Also, 80mL of liquid diet is quite a bit for an ill bird to process, I would keep the meals at 10mL, but space them a little further apart, so she is getting about 6 (60mL) for the day, but let's see what Phil thinks.

Will wait for the weight later, and the beak area does look much less angry looking.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

I will bring it down tomorrow. Infact it consumed only 40ml of liquid diet today. 

Have a good day

Regards

ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,



Looking to the images, we can see what appears to be a slight shorteneing of his upper Beak, and, a slight hook shape, both of which I believe are due to the process of infection in the mid and rear area of the Beak.


Probably this Pigeon could handle small whole Seeds now, and, maybe lets see what Karyn thinks about that before we do anything along those lines.

But, if Karyn thinks it is safe by now to try, then we can discuss that, and, then, you can try it.


If you can, smell the fresh poops closely, and see if they have any scent of 'sweetness'.

That seems like a lot of Honey to me, and, not all Pigeons do well with managing higher levels of various Sugars...to where, in some instances, one can very easily smell the Sugars in the poops even.

The Mango purree would really supply plenty of extra Calories, as that goes.


I will try and post some images later, showing the 'Burrito Bird' method.

I thought I posted a verbal describe earlier in the thread?

But, regardless, I know, a Picture is worth a 'Thousand Words'!


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato

Phil, yes, I agree, as you say, they don't do too well with too much sugar. I see no reason this little one can not eat smaller seeds or even small pieces of whole wheat bread, slightly moistened with some fresh olive oil, Here, I would suggest Cockatiel sized pellets, placed in the mouth one at a time with blunt end tweezers, so the mouth would not have to really be opened to "pop" the food. Might even try something like I suggested for Dana's birds, corn bread, where you would mix a cup of corn meal, 3 eggs, 2 tablespoons of olive oil and enough water to bring it together into a batter, bake at 275 in a shallow pan until it sets up and cut this up into pea sized pieces and feed (you could even add a few of the things you like, such as seaweed, fine goji berries, ground seeds and so on, in India I am sure they have lots of ground peas and lentils that could be added as well). The one concern I have for small seeds is how to get them into her, without worries of aspiration of any.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

I would expect this Pigeon has normal Tracheal reflexes and would be alright with small whole Seeds, and, seeing as how his Tongue is present and apparently intact, he might even be able to peck and eat them just fine, even with his upper Beak being the way it is.


I would say, just get some Canary or Finch Seed mix, and, let him have a chance to simply peck the seeds himself in a normal way, from a small deep-ish low Cup or Bowl or other.

This should be supervised, for being able to see how he does with it...and or, to note any difficulty with success and to describe it to us.


If visiting a Store which sells Canary or Finch Seed Mixes, see also if they have Grit for Canaries or Finches, which would be small size Grit.


Pigeons with Anemia, uper-Respiratory illness, or who are having labored Breathing or who are overly excited - these will have Trachias which may not or do not close between Breaths, and, it is these typically where one must be very cautious about putting smaller aspirable things into their Mouths, or, it is these typically whom one must Tube Feed directly in to the Crop, in order to be safe, if they are not eating normally on their own.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


Please stil get the "DMSO'' absolutely as soon as possible.



Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil

You did describe about "Burrito Bird" in earlier messages in detail. I requested for a Youtube broadcast for the rest of the world to get benifitted. I practiced it couple of times and now I am able to do properly.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

rum175 said:


> Hello Phil
> 
> You did describe about "Burrito Bird" in earlier messages in detail.



Okay...




> I requested for a Youtube broadcast for the rest of the world to get benifitted. I practiced it couple of times and now I am able to do properly.
> 
> Regards



Oh good!


I am not aware of any good you tube demonstrations of this method.

If there are any, I would like to see them!


It is a very valuable method for many of the things one has to do to manage and care for an ill or injured Pigeon or other Bird.


Anyway...I think he was getting way too much Sugar there, between the Honey and the Mango.

Of the two, I would skip the Honey and keep on with the Mango, as far as any continueing Formula feeds.

Did ytou have a chance to consider the Post above earl;ier, about letting him try to peck small whole Seeds? Such as Canary or Finch Mix?

And, can you get these kinds of Seeds locally? ( You should be able to, since Canaries and Finches are pretty well universally kept as Pets ).


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas




Ramana[/QUOTE]


----------



## rum175

Thanks Phil.

I didnt find any youtube explaining this method of "Burrito Bird". If you can broadcast one then that is going to be a cool video and useful to the bird world. I can be part of this project and contribute my 2 cents if required. 

It is possible that it may be getting more sugar in the form of honey, sugar, mango pulp and apple sauce. I will reduce sugar in today's diet.

We have couple of love birds and we feed them seeds that are of 1/4th size of millets. They are too small. I tried to feed them but it is relcutant to consume. It may need one or two more days to get to that point. Btw, we isolated the cage of our love birds to avoid any infection from out Pigeon.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,



You need Canary or Finch Seed mix.

These are universal and available just about anywhere on Earth, even as people having pet canaries and Finches is pretty well universal the World over.

This idea is for him to be allowed to peck these on his own, in natural way, if he can, and or to see if he can.

The Seeds need to be this small size in order to test his digestive system, and, to see how well they pass ( and I expect these Seeds to pas well ).


The purpose is not to feed seeds to him - the purpose is to let him peck, and, to see if he can in fact peck these with success.

These Seeds need to be presented in something like a regular English Tea Cup, since he will need to be pecking more deeply than normal, and, or will have to learn a new technique for his Pecking, and, a shallow container would not be appropriate for this.


Did you obtain the Catheters?

No. 8 French, Luer end, Pediatric, Urinary-Urethral, Silicone.

This will fit on to the end of a plain tip 10 mL Syringe.

Like this -

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/578005139kkdMDX


"DSMO" as soon as you possibly can please!


Best wishes!



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

rum175 said:


> Thanks Phil.
> 
> I didnt find any youtube explaining this method of "Burrito Bird". If you can broadcast one then that is going to be a cool video and useful to the bird world. I can be part of this project and contribute my 2 cents if required.



I do not know how to make or post a Video.




> It is possible that it may be getting more sugar in the form of honey, sugar, mango pulp and apple sauce. I will reduce sugar in today's diet.



No more Sugar "period".

The Mango purree will have all he could possibly benift from just by itself.

You can even reduce that to say, being 1/4th the formula content.




> We have couple of love birds and we feed them seeds that are of 1/4th size of millets. They are too small. I tried to feed them but it is relcutant to consume.


See my Post above...



> It may need one or two more days to get to that point.



I have no idea what those Seeds are, but, a Millet Seed is about 1/16th of an Inch in diameter...and, is about as small as a Pigeon would bother trying to peck.

It is not clear in your mention, if you presented these seeds as advised, or, if you were trying to feed them to him somehow.

The idea, for now, is for him to be able to self feed, and, to have Seeds of a kind which would be expected to appeal to a Pigeon, and, which are known to appeal to Pigeons, and, which are small enough to have the least risk of troubles, if his digestive system happens to have any remaining inflamitory debris or inflammation.

He can almost certainly Peck and self feed at this point, but, his technique will have to change from what it had been, to accomidate the distortion his Beak now shows.

He may still loose his uper Beak, or, he may retain it, but where the outer half of it's length will be dead material, which will shrink and twist and be very different than the Beak it once was...or, he may retain it, and, it would stay about like it is now, only with no infection present...or, it may improve from how it is now.

Either way, it would be good for him to have an opportunity presently, to peck and self feed with appropriately sized Seeds, and, Seeds of a type which Pigeons are known to like.




> Btw, we isolated the cage of our love birds to avoid any infection from out Pigeon.
> 
> 
> 
> Ramana


Okay...

Just washing your hands well prior to, and, after touching his Beak, would be good enough.

Even if he was still contageous, and likely he is not, but, even if he was, this is not something other Birds would catch form across a room, or, from being two inches away even.

They would have to drink form the same Bowl of Water to get it...and, infected Birds probably do not even give it to other healthy adult Birds via contaminated shared Water Bowls, anyway...it is not that sort of illness, like a Virus or some Bacterial illness can be.


Just normal hygene is fine with this.


Best wishes..!


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

I tried as you advised. I kept a bowl (3 inches deep) with millets and broken rice granuels (smaller than millets). However it is not showing any interest to peck them. 

It is drinking water by itself and coopering for syrenge feed but not to peck seeds.

I could not procure Catheters yet. These vendors directly supply them to hospitals and they are not available in pharmacy shops or pet shops. Do we have any alternatives like using same diameter pipes available in home need shops?


DSMO will arrive in couple of hours from now. Please let me know how to mix it with Metronidazole.

I can prepare a corn meal, egg and olive oil combination cake and make pea sized pieces as suggested by Karyn. We dont get goji berries and seaweed. We get ground nuts and lenthils though.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

rum175 said:


> I tried as you advised. I kept a bowl (3 inches deep) with millets and broken rice granuels (smaller than millets). However it is not showing any interest to peck them.



Hi Ramana, 


Can you post an image showing the Millets? These are actual Millet Seeds? The quite small slightly yellowish Ivroy color Spherical Seeds?

They might just a little too small...some Pigeons like them, and, others will not peck at them.

We do not know what he was used to eating before you had him.

What was he eating under your care, prior to this infection?


What did he like to eat, before this situation with his Beak infection had occurred?




> It is drinking water by itself and coopering for syrenge feed but not to peck seeds.
> 
> I could not procure Catheters yet. These vendors directly supply them to hospitals and they are not available in pharmacy shops or pet shops. Do we have any alternatives like using same diameter pipes available in home need shops?



I just get them from Home Medical Supply places.

They would not be available over here in any Pharmacies or Pet Shops.

This is a unique sort of item, but, even so, will be available anywhere in the World, since the demand and use of them is universal.

These are Pediatric Urethral/Urinary Catheters, normally used for inserting into the Urethras of human Neonates for whatever procedures it happens to be needed for.


The same kind of Catheter would be available for Veterinary use, but it is almost impossible over here anyway, to obtain Veterinary use Catheters ( even though anyone can walk in to any Home Medical Supply Store, and buy the ones intended for people...)





> DSMO will arrive in couple of hours from now. Please let me know how to mix it with Metronidazole.



One convenient way to do this, would be to use a fresh, clean, brand new, 10 mL Syringe.

Pull out the Plunger.

Add five mLs of Water.

Add a Metronidazole 60 mG Tablet. Carefully re-insert the Plunger just enough so it is 'in'.

Let sit a while, then vigorously shake, keeping a finger tip over the Syringe end.

One needs to make sure the Tablet is completely dissolved, so, sometimes this means expelling the contents into a tiny Glass, and, drawing it back up again a few times, so all is completely dissolved.

Once satisfied no mashed portion of Tablet is clinging to the end of the Syringe undissolved, dispense the contents into the tiny Glass...and, add three drops of the 'DMSO'.

Draw this in to the Syringe, and, then, put some plain Water into the small Glass, and, draw in another four mLs or so, so one now has about 9 mL of the Metronidazole and 'DSMO' solution, in the 10 mL Syringe.

This is enough then for the contents to be shaken prior to each use.

Keep the Glass and use it to dispense some of the Solution into, if using a Q-Tip or fine Watercolor Brush, for applying the Solution to the afflicted areas.

Apply it not only TO the obviously afflicted area, but, to margain of say 1/4 of an inch or so, all around the afflicted area.

Keep it out of his Eyes of course, and, do not apply it close to his Eyes either...so just on to his Forehead there where his Beak and Forehead join, would be fine.

Do your best to apply it to the area inside the underside of the upper Beak, because that area really needs it.


A Q-Tip works better than a small Brush, since one can dip it into the Solution, press it lightly against the side of the small Glass to make it less 'soppy', or, so it is not drippy or over-wet, just so it will still have enough Solution in it, to reease the Solution when it is lightly pressed or pushed against the inside upper Beak ( or other ) area, do not rub, but, press or daub or dab it successively there and on the other areas for the Solution held in the Q-Tip Swab, to exude on to the tissues it is being pressed against.

So, dip the Swab, press it lightly against the side of the small Glass to eliminate excess content, daub the areas which need it, and, then, throw it away, and, use a fresh Swab and, dip it, to continue the session/treatment...do not re-dip a Swab.



What antibiotics do you have, I forget?





> I can prepare a corn meal, egg and olive oil combination cake and make pea sized pieces as suggested by Karyn. We dont get goji berries and seaweed. We get ground nuts and lenthils though.



I would not bother with that at this point or phase of his recovery.

Small, whole, wholesome Seeds, especially those mixes or blends marketed for Canaries or Finches, would be much better...and, seeing about his pecking.

Once eating Seeds, you can add things to those including fresh Olive Oil.



But...

Are there any Oriental Markets around there?

Any 'Health Food Stores'?

Any Livestock or Farm Supply Places? Farm and Feed Stores?




> Regards
> 
> Ramana




Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Please see this pic. Left spoon contains Millets, middle one contains what our love birds eat. The same is sold in pet shops for Canaries and finches. The right spoon contains brown rice. 

This Pigeon is part of a flock around our apartments. We found it on ground in injured and in sick state and rescued it. It was eating rice granuels and Millets with us until he became sick. 

I tried these three seeds today in a bowl but it was not inerested to eat.

I will go to a clinic and see if I can get Catheters.

We dont have any oriental stores here. There are few farm and feed stores but they have limited range of products and medicines.

I have Shondrox antibiotic that contains Cefadorxil. Let me know If I have to buy any new medicines.

I will start DSMO mixed paint coat tonight per your instructions.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

I agree with Phil, you can cut out the honey, if this little one is getting mango. Phil, I am not sure how well she will be able to peck, based on the position her beak is wedged open at in the last photo, http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=577687&postcount=101, she may be able to get some from a deeper dish, but I don't think, at this point, she can pick up small individual seeds. May be worthwhile trying to see if she can pick up larger food items, such as small pieces of whole wheat bread (lightly moistened with olive oil) or even cooked rice, both soft and easy to grasp (or other similar quality items she could grasp). Just for nutrition sake, until we get the tube feeding going the corn bread could fill in the gaps in this and get something more solid, but easier to digest and to be able feed into her.

Ramana, please stay with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, do no change this medicine or the dose right now(really need to get a weight today for her), start the topical DMSO + Metronidazole, as well as continuing the oral dosing of the Metronidazole. Be very gentle, at all times, touching the beak area, as we do not know the extent of damage and until we do, best to assume it could break off with very little stress to it.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I stopped Honey today. Little bit ( less than 1 ml) goes inside due to medication.

I got its weight checked. It is 260 gms (Little less than 9 oz). It appears lower than a healthy rock pigeon. It also lost tail feathers and feathers on its upper back by the time we found it. That could be one reason for low weight.

I got 17 ozs of DSMO today and started using it. That is the least possible minimum quantity I could get. I am strictly following Metrodinazole and Trimethoprim/Sulfa per dosage.

Today it consumed 40 ml of liquid diet gracefully and drank water from bowl by itself. It appeard little active today.

Have a good day

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


I have had quite a few really terrible Canker Beak Pigeons, and, often enough they had other illnesses going on also, and or had escaped some predation event in which they had lost Feathers or been wounded as well.

Check your Pigeon very thoroughly for any small bumps under the Feathers...these can be difficult to find, or are quite subtle as far as trying to 'feel' for them, but, just give him a few, very thorough examinations, tactile, and, visual.

Somestimes Body Feathers will appear to be slightly out of line or slightly raised if such a 
'bump' is present underneath them.

Such 'bumps' would be localized infections from bites or tiny Claw punctures.


Smell him carefully, all over, and, see if any sort of odors are detectible.

Let us know as best you can, what he smells like, and or if any areas on him have a different smell.

A healthy Pigeon smells very nice, like fresh Grain.

Babys especially smell wonderul.

Different illnesses have their own way of effecting the Pigeon's body for there to be a different smell.

Unresolved puncture Wounds, can or usually have some odor, but, after a couple weeks or so, this tends to cease and they may not be detectivle by smell.


Anyway, usually, Pigeons recovering from Canker will wish to eat, but, not always.

What usually see, is that they wish to eat, but, can not succeed in their pecking, so they just scatter the Seeds in trying, but, this shows their interest anyway.

If a Pigeon is not interested in the Seeds presented to them, it is because they are not feeling well, in a way where their appetite or interest in eating is low or not present...or, it is because the Seeds presented to them are not what they are familiar with, or, like.


Candida or Yeast troubles tend to seriously diminish intrerest in eating and self feeding, even though the Pigeon will continue to accept being fed or tube fed.


I just have no idea what Pigeons tend to graze on over there, other than that it would be the Seeds of Wild Grasses and other small Plants, or small Seeds from whatever sized Plants, and, whatever people happen to put out for them.

Anyway, recovering Canker Beak Pigeons I have had, tended to be very interested in Seeds and in trying to peck, even loong before they would be able to or allowed to, whether or not they could succeed, and, those who's Beaks were distorted from the illness, even those who had lost their Tongues, would try and try and try to peck their Seeds, and, either find a new technique, or, I would work with them to encourage the development of a new technique, and, either way, they would soon succeed and be self feeding.

If his Beak remains as it is, he can re-learn his Pecking style to succeed in pecking his Seeds, and, some of my interest in this is for him to begin now.

Of course, if he is not interested to try, then, we must wonder why.


Does he show interest and enthusiasm for the formula meals? And, can you describe his manner of showing interest/enthusiasm?

Images of to-day's poops?



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


Can you buy any sort of Bird Seed mixes there?


If you could even get what is usualy called a 'Wild Bird Seed' mix, you could seperate the overly large Seeds from those of an apprpriate size for him, and, end up with a pretty nice presentation of a small Seed variety.

Can you get Milo Seeds?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, now that we have a weight, I want you to reduce the amount of Metronidazole down to 0.20cc (20mg), twice a day, and at the seven day mark reduce it a bit more down to 0.15 (15mg) twice a day, as we spoke of a little while ago. I just wanted to mention that Metronidazole can affect their appetite in a negative way, and this little one is being treated pretty aggressively with this medication, so we may know better one the dosing come down and then stopped if meds are a factor in her not feeling to feed at the moment.

Phil has made a long and informative post that has laid things out quite well.


Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil and Karyn

I could not buy any bird seed mix or milo seeds yesterday. DSMO consumed lot of time yesterday to procure it. I will get those seeds today.

I will reduce the Metronidazole dosage from today. Most of the time this bird is resting. That may be a good sign. Still t is unable to walk. It is trying to stand on one leg but unable to sustain balance. It was on one leg when we found it. 

Rest is good. It is active and taking food through syrenge properly. Drinking water periodically by itself.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,





rum175 said:


> Hello Phil and Karyn
> 
> I could not buy any bird seed mix or milo seeds yesterday.



Were you able to locate a source though?



> DSMO consumed lot of time yesterday to procure it.



Ohhhh, well I am glad you were able to get it!





> I will get those seeds today.



Excellent!




> I will reduce the Metronidazole dosage from today.



And begin the Swabbing of the Solution, as discussed...'a.s.a.p.'




> Most of the time this bird is resting. That may be a good sign.




No...that is not good.

Somehow I thought he was active and more energetic.


Has he been trying to preen at all?




There must be something else going on or amiss, besides the Canker.






> Still t is unable to walk. It is trying to stand on one leg but unable to sustain balance. It was on one leg when we found it.


So...what was gong on with the Legs then, from when you found him, untill now? As far as you can say anyway from what you have seen?




> Rest is good. It is active and taking food through syrenge properly. Drinking water periodically by itself.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana




We need to figure out whether he had injured his Legs, or, if the Legs were being effected by a Sciatic Nerve issue secondary to a Kidney inflammation which could result from Canker.


So...he spends his time sitting or laying down, in effect, but, can stand on one Leg, briefly? Or...?



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


If you would please, review for us what you recall of his details when you got him, and, for the time prior to this Thread.


Phil
Lv


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, yes, as Phil asks, can you give us more information on how she was physically when you found her, how has she progressed since you found her, has she become a little worse or better?.... has she ever used the leg she can't stand on before the canker?... new photos of dropping, beak and a whole body shot and if possible even a short video clip to Youtube of her and her attempts at getting around.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

- yes I located pet shops where I can buy bird feed mix. I will get it today.

- I started using DSMO yesterday night (1st June). What I have is 400 mg tablets of Metronidazole. So I made it into half. It would be 200mg. I increased water and DSMO proporationately to prepare this paint. 

- It is not trying to do preening. 
- When we found it it was able to walk on single leg. It had a minor injure in its right claw so not able to use it. We used "Kiskin", an external ointment. It healed but this bird didnt get a chance to use the right leg as Canket attacked by the time it healed. 

- It was able to walk on left led until canker problem. Last Saturday it became very weak and could not walk, eat or drink. That time I came to this foum for help.

- After medication it walked for one day but little slowly. It is unable to walk from last two days. I thought it was weak.

- It tries to standup on left leg but falls off. It is laying down and unable to sit. So today I gave liquid diet and medication per schedule and did "burrito bird" so it can get some rest.

- I looked into its legs and I didnt see any injure or inflamation. Their color is also same as it was before. I will release it after two hours of rest and see how it does.

- It pooped 7 times yesterday in 24 hours and color and viscacity is same as it was before.


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, I want you to examine her right leg (bad leg) very carefully, use the three finger of your hand, thumb, index and forefinger to probe the leg for any irregularities (especially looking for a break), please use the good leg to make comparisons to if you think anything feels odd in the right, check it against the left to see if they are the same in the area you are questioning. How is her breathing, is it labored in any way, any clicking crackling or wet sounds like she is congested?

Get a small towel, roll it up (a piece of tape to hold it together) and make a donut for her to rest in, it like a little nest to help support her, you can place a paper towel under to help clean up her droppings quicker, here is what it would look like:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

HI Ramana,


Poop images please...( these really need to be Posted each day or at least every other day, even if you feel they appear to have stayed the same).

Also, the other images Karyn has outlined ( and if you can make and post a You Tube Video of him, that would be great! )


I am sorry I was not aware of his being as weak and or ill as he has been...I thought he was a stranding, walking Bird.

Let us know if any difference between the two Legs, in any way - if the effected one is limp or is it tense, if the Foot is limp or can grip, etc. Does he hold the effected Leg up when standing on the good Leg...does the effected :eg appear to be loose or rubbery or to stick out at a different angle, etc.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I checked it and didnt find anything unsual. Its right leg is straight and no indications of breakage or fracture. 

It is breathing is quite normal and no crackling or wet sounds heard. 

There was a minor injury at the bottom of its right claw when we found it and it is completely healed now. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

- I will post pics of its poop shortly and post one pic everyday from now onwards
- I will also post a video so that you can see its current physical state.
- I checked its body and found one lump on its right wing (upper side). 
- As mentioed earlier there was a small injury under its right wing when we found it and its almost cured. This injure was close to the body where wing meets its torso.
- Smell wise it is normal today. Last saturday it was emitting pungent smell when canker problem was at its peak. 

- It lost its tail feathers and feathers on its upper back when we found it. In next one week it started to grow its tail feathers and few feathers on its back. Feathers looked very healthy until canker prob. From last Saturday feathers appeared little bit dull and unorganized. 
- Normally these pigeons eat seeds thrown by people and search for leftovers near by resturants. Normally they pick rice, lenthil and other seeds like millets from ground, balconies or backyards of house or resturants. I noticed some pigeons pecking dried bread. They drink water from overhead tanks on top of apratments. 

- I tried donut option and it didnt like it for a while but now it is feelig comfortable because there is no pressure on its legs.

- When I approach it with a bowl of liquid diet and syrenge, it shakes it head couple of times and adjust its tounge as if it is getting ready for a meal. It opens its beak with little force and cooperate. It swallows liquid diet gracefully and shakes head to clear its throat after every little feeding. May be it shakes its head to protest. Not sure.

- One observation with its legs. There is no change in its right leg since from we found it except that the minor injure is completely healed now. But left leg was very healthy and it used to spread its fingers in proper angle for better surface balance. However now those three front fingers on its left leg are close to each other. When I keep a pencil under its claw, it is able clasp it. It is able to kick and use force through its left leg except that it is unable to stand due to balancing problems.


Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 



Please investigae the 'lump' and see what you can find out about it.

If it is a scab or dried 'plug' or if it appears to be healthy Skin ( look carefully at the other co-responding side also, of the Wing ) and or if it is hard, soft, squishy, or whatever.


Examine his entire Body also, carefully feeling for any small bumps or lumps or disturbed Feathers and under his Feathers, and, if finding any, examine them and let us know your description.


Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

It appears like a scab on the right wing. I didnt find anything on the coresponding side of the wing. Wheras I found little bit degradation of feathers on left wing. I noticed powedery substance at roots of feathers there. Any parasites?

I didnt post any pics in my previous post. Waiting to take a clear pic of its poop ad beak. I will also post a video tonight (IST).

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, based on what you have said, I want to make a change in the antibiotic being used, I you to see if you can pick a few Ciprofloxacin tablets (Cipro) and we will start to use this instead of the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, but continue with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa until you get the Cipro. Also, see if you can pick up a medicine called Meloxicam, it is an anti-inflammatory, a few common trade names for it would be Muvera 15, Mobic 15 and Melobic 15, or it may just come as Meloxicam 15. The 15 designates 15mg, but it also come in 7.5mg and this size would also be acceptable if they do not have the 15mg, you will just need 1 pill (1 of the 15mg, 2 of the 7.5mg), so get as few as possible.

Good to hear her breathing is clear, one less worry right now.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn,

I will get these tablets and let you know. Do you suspect any parasites on its body? Last time you recommeded mite and lice spray but i didnt get a chance to get that. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn,

I got both the tablets you recommended. I got Cirprofloxacin 500mg (ciplox 500 is local name) and Meloxicam 15mg (Muvera 15 local name. Trimethoprim/Sulfa dose is due in next one hour. Shall I use new tablet instead? Please advice the dosage.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Crush up the Ciplox into as fine a powder as you can, add 10mL of honey stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes stir well again and you will have a 5% Cipro suspension ready to use. I want you to give her 0.10cc (5mg) twice a day, every 12h, until further notice. With the Meloxicam, I want you to crush one 15mg pill of the Muvera 15 into as very fine a powder as you can, then I want you to boil a cup of water, let it cool down to it's still very warm and then add 10mL of the water to the Muvera powder, stir until dissolved and then give her 2 drops of this as a first dose, this will be 0.10cc, and then give her 1 drop, 0.05cc, once a day, every 24h, after that. Keep all meds refrigerated and stir/shake well before each use.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

This is the latest pic of its poop. I will post its video and detailed pics shortly.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

rum175 said:


> Do you suspect any parasites on its body? Last time you recommeded mite and lice spray but i didnt get a chance to get that.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana



I do not suspect any parasites on his Body.

If he had Lice or mites, you would have noticed them on your Hands when handling him.



Some images of him himself please?

Just a few general vies, form the front, from the side, of him at his normal liesure.


----------



## rum175

Hello KAryn and Phil

Latest update:

- I started using new medication few hours back.
- It consumed 40 ml liquid diet and drank water by itself
- 7 times pooped and it is normal 
- trying to stand but unable to balance. I will post a video tomorrow. I tried my best to post it today but few conversion problems.

Please see few pics. I will post more along with the video tomorrow.

Have a good day

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

This is its latest beak status


----------



## Dobato

That wing bump looks suspiciously like a paratyphoid type boil (an infection caused by salmonella bacteria), the change in medicine to Cipro should help with this. Thanks for the photos and you set her up in the donut well, good job.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Yes...( as Karyn says...)


So...the missing Feathers of the Tail, and, some on one Wing - these fell out recently? Or, were missing when you found him?


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn and Phil.

Happy to know that Cipro tablet takes care of paratyphoid problem. 

It lost its complete tail feathers and majority of upper back feathers by the time we found it. After couple of days of nourshement new tail and upper back feathers started sprouting. Some of the new feathers could not sustain due to canker problem and weakness caused by canker.

I will post a video and new pics today.

After a close observation I found couple of lice on its head feathers yesterday night. It is shaking head to get rid of them.

Few good news today morning. It woke up fresh and putting more effort to standup. It is getting fair amount of succes. It is able to sit atleast in that process rather than falling off as compared to yesterday. One more thing, it tried to peck few rich granuels. It is also responding to our love birds chirping and try to move towards them.

Now I have more confidence that this bird will get out of this crisis soon. We will refer to it with its name from today. We will call it "Karyn" at home among our family memebers and we will call it "Bird Karyn" in this forum to differntiate from "Karyn".

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, I am glad to hear you say you feel Bird Karyn is a little more responsive today, and wanted to peck a bit at food, she is a very ill bird, so we have to look to any little improvements as a good sign. Just keep doing what you are doing and if you have any concerns or questions, please let us know.

Ramana, you took down all the old photos, do you think you could put back up a shot from the first clear photos of the beak you put up at around post #64, I wanted to compare the new shot of the beak with one from last Sunday.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Thanks Karyn, It is becuase of support from you and Phil. 

I will organize his pics in chronology and post a them soon in Youtube.

Meanwhile is there any solution for Lice problem. I called couple of pet shops but they dont have mite and lice spary. They have few other local brands but I dont want to experiment with them.


----------



## rum175

Btw, I have Cipladine (Povidone lodine) with me. Does it help Bird Karyn?

Does it help if we wash it carefully. Please advice

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Indeed...


Glad we were able to deduce what seems to have been a probable on-going ailment which no doubt has been weighing this Bird down quite a bit.


It is possible also that this is what has been effecting the Legs.


----------



## Dobato

pdpbison said:


> Indeed...
> 
> Glad we were able to deduce what seems to have been a probable on-going ailment which no doubt has been weighing this Bird down quite a bit.
> 
> It is possible also that this is what has been effecting the Legs.


Phil, do you mean the possible paratyphoid?

Ramana, no, the Povidone lodine would not be useful for the lice problem. The local brands may be OK depending on what their active ingredient(s) is, can you write down what the active chemical(s) is and let us know and we can tell you if they will work and importantly, are safe (you are looking for a pet spray that contains Pyrethrum or another spelling Pyrethrins).

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Dobato said:


> Phil, do you mean the possible paratyphoid?



Hi Karyn,


Yes...the possible/probable Paratyphoid.




> Ramana, no, the Povidone lodine would not be useful for the lice problem. The local brands may be OK depending on what their active ingredient(s) is, can you write down what the active chemical(s) is and let us know and we can tell you if they will work and importantly, are safe (you are looking for a pet spray that contains Pyrethrum or another spelling Pyrethrins).
> 
> Karyn


The only time one would tend to see Lice, is on one's Hands or wrists, after Handling a Bird who has them.

Very rarely would one see Lice crawling on or roiling on a Lice afflicted Bird unless the Bird were enormously full of them, although one may sometimes see 'Nits ( Lice Eggs ) of a Lice afflicted Bird, located in or on the Neck or Head Feathers, where, generally, they are lain because the Bird is not able to preen well on that area.

Often people think they are seeing Lice, when it is not Lice at all, but something else.

I have never seen a Pigeon shake it's head trying to skake off Lice, nor would that shake them off anyway.


So...

Ramana, 


If you would please, describe to us what you saw?

Size, shape, color, how it moved, where it was, etc.

And, maybe we can figure out what it is...and, then, what to do about it.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

Good Morning

Few more good news. Bird Karyn started pecking Millet seeds and Rice Granuels by itself. It ate almost 25 count. It also started preening little bit. It appears more active and prefers to move around. Though it is unable to walk (on single leg as it was walking when we found it) but it able to balance to some extent and able to sit. It appears more like an organized and conscious crawling. 

I gave medicines per schedule and gave 30 ml of liquid diet as it ate few seeds. 

I tried to catch a small lice kind of insect from its head but could not locate. I will explain about them when I find one. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

This poop is latest and taken 4 hours after it ate seeds.


----------



## rum175

I posted a youtube video with Pics and clips of Bird Karyn. Please see the below link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk-pri8XNSY

First pics are detailed ones to show its current state. Then there is a small clip that shows how it trys to balance on one leg. Last four pics compare its beak starting from 29th May.

Please let me know if you need any other pics or perspectives. 

I will update you with more details.

Thanks to both of you for being kind to our bird.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

I forgot to mention. It pecked those seeds from a bowl and it could succeed to peck one seed in every 2-3 attempts.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


Glad to hear of their pecking!


This apears to be a young adult Pigeon.

Their Head shake-motions are from the discomforts of their Beak condition.

Please do not permit people to be jabbing their Hands toward the Bird or trying to get the Bird to react to sudden Hand motions coming at the Bird or at the Bird's face.


Insist on interactions which are gentle and supportive for the Bird, interactions which have actual meaning in real terms from the Bird's point of view, which are slow affectionate kinds of interactions and kinds of touching which re-assure safety and affection and deference, rather than imitating threat or teasing...and, never sudden, jerky or fast or just trying to make the Bird react.


See if you can obtain 'Medistatin' locally - it is used to treat Yeast and or Candida issues in the GI.


All in all, I will guess that this Bird became ill, then once compromised and weakened, none-the-less survived and escaped form some sort of predator, prior to your finding him.


Glad the new meds for addressing the suspected Paratyphoid seem to be having some good effects already!


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, has made some good mentions, and the head shaking is for the reasons Phil has stated and the the dropping looks improved. Did you do the close examination of the bad leg, probing for irregularities. I would keep Bird Karyn confined as much as you can to her donut and let her rest the bad leg and keep up the rest don't for get to reduce the Metronidazole dose down to 0.15cc (15mg, q12H). Glad she has improved and is now interested in eating, and even a little preening, these are good sign, but a long way to go yet.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil and Karyn

Me and my wife's movments are gentle and supportive towards Bird Karyn. Some times my daughter gets into playful mode with it. It shows little bit of aggresion with me and my wife and whereas it feels lot of comfort with my Daughter and eats when she cajoles it. I will ask my Daughter to go soft with Bird Karyn and avoid sudden moments. We started talking soft and trying to explain our actions. It looks into our faces but not sure it is able to understand. 

I will try to get Medistatin today. Is it Medistat or Medistatin? 

I tried to check its right leg (bad leg) and couldn't find any irregularities. It is able ot grip pencil or my finger with its left leg fingers but not with the right leg fingers. 

Yes, I reduced the dosage to 0.15cc and giving it twice a day.

It is a long way to go for Bird Karyn but I am happy to see its progress. This bird is showing lot of resilience and fighting to get out of its illness. I can learn few good things from it in this journey. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I will try to get Medistatin today. Is it Medistat or Medistatin?


The Medistatin Phil asks that you pick up is one trade name for a medicine called Nystatin, but Medistatin may not be easy for you to find where you are. However, Nystatin, the active medicine in Medistatin, should be easy enough for you to find, based on how you were able to find all the other medicines asked for. You will be looking for an oral suspension of Nystatin, a few local names for you would be Mystatin-OS or Priminyst Oral Suspension, but any Nystatin suspension will do (typical strength will be 100,000 IU/mL). This medicine will help protect her GI system from getting any yeast infections from being on long term antibiotics, and also treat any already existing issues she may have with yeast in her crop and other parts of her GI tract.

Forgot to mention before, thanks for the photos and the video clip, there were helpful.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 



I am so hapy about the recent developments and our realizing this Pigeon has likely had a serious on-going illness which now is being addressed.

He ( or she, but, I think it is a he ) is obviously a Bird who has retained a strong will to Live, and, to prevail if possible, and, this is very moving and tender, especially considering all they have been through.

The paratyphoid can sometimes effect one or both of the Legs for inflaming tissues which constrict the Sciatic Nerves which control the Legs, so, if all goes well, this will ease up, and, he will regain the use of his Leg.

I worry about Yeast/Candida infestation any time a Canker Bird is being cared for, since I have often seen it arise in the company of the Canker, and, with the conditions of their Crop and digestive system being usually slowed or constricted to some degree with the illness.

So, the 'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' ( which shuld not be expensive in the small size containers ) is something I was thinking may be good to have on hand, or to at least know you can get if needed, if we start seeing signs which may call for it.


Since he is showing a little interest in Pecking, you may as well spend time with him when you can, with him laying in a small Towel draped across your Lap as you sit, and, a little deep container of Seeds in front of him, for him to peck.

You can 'peck' with him to encourage his interest, using your crook'd index finger.

This is easy to do while watching TV or other family liesure things, and, will also suggest to him that he is being included in the social condition, which would be good for his moralle.

Possibly you are already doing this, but, in case you have not been, just letting you know, this is an option which he would likely enjoy, and, which would be good for him.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

Here is a little Album showing a pretty dreadful Canker Beak Pigeon I had found some years ago.


This took enormous and protracted efforts to save her, and, after that I spent well over three years hand feeding them every day and they did NOT want to learn to eat on their own, or to re-learn how, so it was 'Black Mail'!


Lol...

Finally, she got a Mate, and, I think it was pride which compelled her to begin eating by herself, for which I was VERY grateful.

...sigh...


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/july-3rd-2007---can/



Also, a little Album of oly a few images, showing the 'Lap Towel Cave', which is something I usully do for MMPV throes Pigeons, or, for others too shy or timid to eat or who find the condition encouraging, anyway.

Those who may be less shy or who are able to Peck without the second covering, I merely do a similar thing but omit the light covering over them.


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/lap-towell-cave/


Tender recovering Pigeons or other Birds representing the gamut of conditions, seem to find this a comforting and pleasantly social arrangement, and, will often eat this way when they would otherwise not eat at all, or, will find it nice that I am sharing the food by pretend 'pecking' with my crookd' index finger, thus showing them I am not a food Hog nor a Bully who would elbow them away from food.

This then is one way of gaining trust.

Generally Pigeons like to eat with others rather than to eat alone, so, this is a good way then for them to bend or to adapt their Natural History to new conditions and new non-pigeon friends and to feel accepted in terms which make sense to them.


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil and Karyn

I will get this medicine 'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' and keep it ready. 

Thanks Phil for sharing those lovely pics. Good to see two pigeons together in a towel cage. Very adorable!

I went outside for three hours and just came back. I learned from my wife that it consumed more seeds than yesterday and didnt give any liquid diet yet. It is almost 3 PM here in India. By this time I would have given 2-3 times of liquid food. I will give two rounds of liquid diet by end of today. 

Crooked finger is a good idea to try along with Bird Karyn. We will also bring him into our social condition. I hope Bird Karyn enjoys watching TV along with my daughter and wife.

Thanks for all the support. I am glad that you liked its pics and video clip. I will redo it after it completely recovers.

Have a nice weekend.

Ramana


----------



## rum175

This is the latest pic of its poop. It is able to peck good amount of seeds (Millets, Rice, Pearl Millets we bought from pet shop) and declining to take liquid diet.

It is very active today and moving around. Consuming sufficient water. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, I really appreciate you keeping us very closely updated, the last dropping looks like Bird Karyn is getting a decent amount of food and is drinking well. I don't know how you weighed her before, but if you picked a cheap kitchen scale, it would be good to weigh her every day at the same time to keep close track of her weight. I think this is important to know, now that she is eating on her own, and you are no longer feeding her the same amounts of food, we want to make sure between what she is eating herself, and what you are supplementing, she continues to gain weight and not lose any ground. Glad to hear she is slowly improving in energy each day, but for now, because of the bad leg, please just let her do what she wants, not too much activity, so she can rest it and let it heal.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

Last time I used a analog weighing machine. I will try to buy one eletronic weighing scale used in kitchen so that I can keep track of Bird Karyn's weight.

I am continuing its medicines. Please let me know further usage of these medicines. 

Have a nice weekend!

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

At last I could find one lice on its body. I did burrito bird to give medicine to Bird Karyn and later found this bug on towel that I used. Please advice.


----------



## pdpbison

Oh my!


That looks more like a 'Potato Bug'!


The Bird Lice I occasionally see look like a Golden Flax Seed, only smaller.


There are quite a few Home Pet products for Birds which one can use for getting rid of Lice.

Usually these are a small plastic Bottle with a finger-plunger, and, one lightly mists the Bird's under-Wings and Ribs-sides and back, being careful to protect their Face and Eyes of course from any mist getting on them there.


There are also Aerosol versions, and, some are made of Plant extracts and are said to be safer and easier on the Bird.


Let's see what specific ones various of us can find to post links to.


I just did a search on e-bay, using the term 'Bird Lice' - 

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R...1313&_nkw=Bird+Lice&_sacat=See-All-Categories


But, when I went to e-bay India, and, did the same search, I only got this, showing one absurdly too large of a size product -


http://shop.ebay.in/?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=Bird+Lice&_sacat=See-All-Categories


Let's see what Karyn has to say...


----------



## rum175

It is very small though. I took a pic of it from 4-6 inches and then cropped it from original pic after zooming-in a lot. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> It is very small though. I took a pic of it from 4-6 inches and then cropped it from original pic after zooming-in a lot.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


Ramana, I am not sure what that bug is, but you may have pests in your region of the world we a not familiar with. You said a few days ago there were some local products available and I asked you to look into them and what their ingredients were to see if they would be OK to use on Bird Karyn, did you get a chance to do this?

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


So, this tiny insect then, is the same kind that you have seen on the Bird, definitely?


It just does not look like any of the sorts of Lice which Birds may have, which are always quite flat in form.

This looks more like a Larva of some sort.


Are you sure this could not have been something which was on the Towel? Rather than having come off of the Bird?


Lice would not leave a Bird for a Towel...they will crawl on to one's Hands when one is holding a Bird ( thinking they are matriculating to another Bird who was making close physical contact ), but, they are quite smart and for them, leaving the Bird to be on an inanimate object would be suicide, so, they are not known to end up on items or cloths and so on.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn and Phil

I noticed this insect on towel immediately after removing it from Bird Karyn. I used a clean towel and found it inside part (which touches bird karyn) of the towel so I am sure that it came off from Bird Karyn. This insect is crawling actively on a paper when I placed for taking a picture. I think this is the same kind of insect that I saw on the head of Bird Karyn. It appears to be flat for a naked eye. It is little bulge in pic due to lot of zoom-in

I didnt check local pet shops yet for any bird spary yet. I called them over phone and they quoted different brands. I will go there and see their formulations today.

I stopped liquid diet completely and it is able to peck good amount of seeds by itself. It is active and responding very well.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


Please do a few more dedicated Body Searches of the Bird himself, and, see if you can find any further insects but which are actually on him somehow, and, if possible, post some good images of them, if you find any?

The thing you posted the image of just does not seem probable for being any sort of ectoparasite, but, rather, appears to be some larval form of something, too tender, soft and balloon-like and entirely wrong kind of Legs for negotiating Feathers.


Glad he is pecking well!!!!


Good going!


Phil
Las Vegas

(Edited to correct a typo)


----------



## John_D

Looks to me like a body louse, which is an _ecto_parasite. Any permethrin based spray, powder or dip should be effective if any more are present.


----------



## pdpbison

Ohhhhh, Lol...tired Brain, yes, a Louse would be an Ecto-Parasite, and not an endoparasite.


The only ones I have ever seen looked like a Golden Flax Seed roughly, flat, ovoid shape when seen from above.


Or, if very very rarely, a Feather Louse, which of course is a whole different sort of shape once again.

Never seen one with such a HUGE Head..!


Eeeeeeek!


----------



## rum175

I searched whole body but it is difficult to locate one more such insect. Possible that they move in between feathers and hide. 

I will visit Pharmcy shops and look for what John and Karyn recommended. 

Thanks John!

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

This is the latest pic of its poop

I tried for Nystatin suspension but no luck today. Similarly I could not get any spray with permethrin or Pyrethrum here in local shops. I will try once again tomorrow.

Please advice about the ongoing medicines. We have been using Metronidazole for last 8 days. Shall I continue it until further notice?

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> This is the latest pic of its poop
> 
> I tried for Nystatin suspension but no luck today. Similarly I could not get any spray with permethrin or Pyrethrum here in local shops. I will try once again tomorrow.
> 
> Please advice about the ongoing medicines. We have been using Metronidazole for last 8 days. Shall I continue it until further notice?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


Droppings continue to show a decent amount of solids, which is good. You will continue with the Metronidazole (0.15cc, 15mg, twice a day), Cipro (0.10cc, 5mg, twice a day) and the Meloxicam (0.05cc, .075mg, 1 drop, once a day) for now, I will let you know when you need to change, or make any adjustments to her meds.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Thanks Karyn. I will continue these medicines per your advice.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


How is his Beak appearing now?

Any changes?


Have you continued to apply the topical solution with a Q-Tip, to the inside and outside area of the Beak?


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil

Beak is same as two days back. I will post a latest pic of its beak today. I am applying topical solution with Qtip twice a day outside as well as inside. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Okay...


It's a handfull..!


How go the 'Social' aspects with him? Is he enjoying being included in things, Lap Towel time, crook'd finger tip 'pecking' with him as he pecks, and so on?


----------



## rum175

Yes, Bird Karyn enjoys our company and prefers to sit with my family while watching TV. It dozes comfortably when she is with us.

Crooked finger worked very well in terms of encouraging it to eat seeds by itself but sometimes it hits our crooked finger with its beak to threaten us.  

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

They can or will gently chastize with-a-peck, if they feel one is 'pecking' THEIR Seeds...so, it is a fine line, between whether the Pigeon and the Human are each 'pecking' Seeds-in-common, or, their shared Seeds...or, if the Pigeon is a guest who is invited to peck the person's Seeds...Lol...

Generally this gets worked out fairly soon, and, the Pigeon agrees or accepts that the Seeds are belonging to both parties.

...generally...


----------



## rum175

I wish it accepts me soon. As of now Bird Karyn doesnt like me much as compared to my wife and Daughter. I do all the irritating things like feedling liquid diet and giving medicines etc.


----------



## rum175

Latest pic of its poop.


----------



## rum175

Hello Everyone,

Our bird lost its upper beak today. It was alright until midday today but we noticed at 4 PM and we found it without beak. It fell off. It was alone and resting at that time. 

I am not sure what to do now. Please advice. You all warned me and adviced me to be careful while I feed it with liquid diet. It started pecking seeds from bowl for the last two days and I thought it will be alright in next few days. My family is very sad now to see it without beak.

Regards
Ramana


----------



## Pidgey

Let's see a picture. You might want to read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ol-one-beak-amp-scissors-26245.html

Pidgey


----------



## rum175

Thanks Pidgey for your response. Please see the pic.


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, This is what both Phil and I were afraid might happen, this is not necessarily a death sentence, just is going to complicate things. We will need Pidgey's help going forward as I have no experience with how to rehabilitate this little one to get her where she needs to be over the coming months. She will now no longer be able to self feed for sometime, until she learns to feed from a deep dish of seeds, you will have to hand feed her for now, I think you should make the corn bread for now, as I don't know how safe a liquid diet is without the upper beak, we may need to teach you how to tube feed, it's not that hard, and once you know how, pretty fast and simple to do.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, it's not as bad as you might think. Ol' One Beak learned how to feed him/herself pretty well, after all. Let's give it time to heal and toughen up and then we'll start the learning procedure. It's just a matter of handfeeding the bird dried peas and corn kernels one at at time. They kinda' get starving for them instead of formula after awhile for whatever reason. Anyhow, once they're hopelessly addicted and get the knack of plucking them from between your fingers, you just start feeding them literally on a deep bed of seeds (feed) and getting your fingertips holding individual seeds lower and lower and lower... until one day your slowness at feeding them kinda' gets them to start digging in the seeds all on their own and... <poof!> ...they're self-feeding!

Pidgey


----------



## rum175

Thanks Karyn & Pidgey for these good words. We will give a fair chance and support so that it survives. 

I have few quick questions. Bird Karyn will need atleast couple of days to get tough and adjusted to this new state. How do I feed it meanwhile. Is it tube feed or syrenge feed? or handfeed?

What about medication? 

Please advice

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, I know they must have catheters in India, can you make another effort to find a few silicone, or vinyl, or PVC No. 10 or No. 8 French ones and also a 20-30cc tipped plastic syringe (you can even go to No 12). Sometimes they are called Nelaton Catheters and can be used for urinary drainage or shorter ones for suctioning.

They will look like this:

http://www.ambercity.com/robinson-clear-vinyl-urethral-catheters-ea-knd400610.html

http://www.allegromedical.com/cathe...astic-catheter-10-fr-to-16-fr-16-p192373.html

The syringe tipped like this (to fit the catheter, this is a 60mL, try and get the smaller size):

http://www.allegromedical.com/catheters-c539/general-purpose-syringe-60ml-catheter-tip-p561516.html

You can make the cornbread, as I gave you directions for before, and the medication we can place on soft bread and "pop" them like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow, we just have to be a little more delicate when feeding because there is no upper beak to hold, also, make sure her water dish is deep, as she will need to get most of her head in the water to be able to drink.

When you can, please speak to the vet you took Bird Karyn to in the first place and inform them what has happened and how she should have been treated in the first place and with what medicines (Metronidazole, they did get her on an antibiotic, but missed the most important medicine she needed). This severe damage very likely could have been prevented, if the correct medicine, the Metronidazole, had been prescribed at first.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I will try for catheters once again tomorrow. Last time I found vendors of Catheters but they supply directly to hospitals. I will get them from any known hospital tomorrow.

I will also prepare corn bread and start hand feeding that along with the medicines. However, I am unable to trust local vets. As I told earlier, we have some good vets here for dogs but not for birds and my bird was deprived of good treatement. Quite unfortunate!

Thanks a ton for your patience and support. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,



He will be fine, and, he is most likely ready to be re-learning his pecking methods to-day, with your help, so he can be self feeding again.


Once again, a Seed mix such as is used for Canaries or Finches would be best, since these are small whole Seeds and are of a size which would make it easy for him to be re-learning his pecking with.


For now, him on a Towel on your Lap, small deep Seed Bowl in front of him...

Gently open his mouth and drop in a couple or a few small whole Seeds, and, of course, he will swallow.

Just do it this way for a while, and, we can go to the next step soon.



I have every confidence that he will be able to re-learn his self feeding and eating method and be able to eat on his own soon...for which your help and support is important.


So, get the Canary or Finch Seed mix if you can, and, once he has mastered that, larger sized Seed mixes will likely present no problem to him either...but for now, small whole Seeds would be best.


Just do small sessions off and on through out the day, of you gently opening his Mouth and putting a few little Seeds in for him to swallow, so he gets enough food in him each day, and, he will be ready for the next step which I will outline in a couple days.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rum175

Thanks Phil. We are slowly recovering from the shock. We could not digest the fact that it lost its beak. My Daughter cried seeing that and entire family was disturbed yesterday. We are getting back to reality and normal senses now. 

We all decided to give extra care and help Bird Karyn to overcome this crisis. Moreover, we are getting a great support and advice from you all. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Last time I procured pearl millets from a pet shop and Bird Karyn liked them. I will get other bird seed mix today. 

Thanks and regards

ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


Very good...

He should be fairly easy to feed in this way...just gently opening his Mouth by lowering the Mandible Beak and working with him in that way, where, he will figure it out and appreciate it, and co-operate.

Is he trying to peck presently? And, if so, is he getting anywhere with it?


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil,

He is able to drink water normally and trying vigriously to peck seeds in a deep bowl. It must be very hungry. I mixed Millets and Pearl Millets (which are half size of millets) so that it can swallow easily. It succeed few times but still not able to figure it out. I will hand feed it in next couple of hours. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> As I told earlier, we have some good vets here for dogs but not for birds and my bird was deprived of good treatement. Quite unfortunate! Ramana


Ramana, I made the mention about the vet not to point out that Bird Karyn was deprived of good treatment, we kind of know that, but with the hope the vet would be open minded enough to accept some information from you for the future care of any other pigeons/birds that come to them with the same condition as Bird Karyn.

Recently, the same thing happened in Romania, where one of our members had taken a bird with canker to a vet there and this bird was treated with the wrong drugs and died. Later, on another matter, the same member was at the same vet where she noticed the vet had another bird in for treatment with canker, that was receiving the wrong treatment, that bird died as well. She explained to the vet what she had leaned here at Pigeon Talk, about treating with Metronidazole, and provided the vet with some HTML links for more in depth information on treating and curing canker in birds.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

For working with Karyn-Bird for hand feeding Seeds - 


Small to medium Seeds would be fine, as woud the smaller Sizes of Dried Peas.

Bird standing on a Towel draped over your Lap as you sit.
If you are right Handed, have the Bird facing right.

Bowl of Seeds in front of the Bird.

Left Hand - Palm toward the back of the Bird's head, little finger and ring finger slip around the upper Neck...thumb and index finger go around the sides of the head.

Little finger and ring finger stabalize the Bird's head then, just about at the Jaw line area, and thumb and index finger come around and gently meet just below the Nares area or in this case, the sides of the location where the upper Beak used to meet the face, and ot where the Beak would open from.


Right Hand - gently lowers the Mandible Beak or Lower Beak, and when the Bird's mouth is open, either the tip of the left hand thumb, or, the tip of the left hand little finger, slips in to the side of the Mouth, to keep it open a second or two, where...

Right Hand thumb and index finger, takes a Seed or a couple Seeds or a small pinch of very small seeds, and, puts them into the open Mouth...and the Bird is allowed to swallow them.

Explainitory narrations, good eye contact, positive tones, all can help the Pigeon to co-operate and to grasp the process so that it gets easier for both parties.


With your Bird, you can even put a few small Seeds into lower Beak close to his face, and, when he opens his mouth, or when you open it, the Seeds are already 'there' and he can bring them in further and swallow them.

One just has to sort of experiment with these things a little to see what one can work out with the Bird.

But, you want him to open his mouth so you can put Seeds in to it far enough, for him to be able to swallow them easily.


Once he is understanding this, it will be easier for him to understand and to re-learn or learn, that he needs to develop a new method for self feeding, a method where he opens his Mouth enough to get his mouth around a Seed in the Bowl, in order to eat it.

For now, he will still be trying to 'peck' as though he still had a Beak, and, this does not open his mouth enough.

So this exercise of the Hand Feeding of the Seeds, is an intermediary phase or step for him to both be fed, and, for him to re-learn his Pecking to where he will open his Mouth to get a Seed from the Seed Bowl, and, lower his face into or onto the Seeds, to do it.


----------



## rum175

I agree Karyn. In fact I visited the same clinic day before yesterday in search of a bird spray to solve its lice problem and met the same vet. I explained the situation and told him that he could not identify the problem. I told him briefly about the canker problem. However, I didn’t talk much about the medication part. I hope he will take it from there and learn about canker. I am planning to go there once again today for bird mix seeds and will explain about the medication part and give him little more knowledge (or piece of my mind) about it.

This is the first time I learned about canker problem in birds. Though we have been possessing love birds for almost for the last 6 months but never knew about such problem. Otherwise, I would have reacted bit early. I didn’t even know about this forum and I never imagined that there are few dove angels out there and they are available through this forum. Otherwise bird Karyn would be lot better today.

Now I am more concerned about Bird Karyn and we will give more attention and extra care to make it better. Thanks to you all for being with us. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Thanks Phil for these detailed guidelines. This is very useful. Last time I had little difficulty with syerenge feed but I could do it very well after couple of attempts. I wish I repeat that sort of performance now.

Thanks once again.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

So how does Bird Karyn seem to-day in general?


Even over here it seems that many supposedly 'Avian' Vets do not know about Trichomoniasis or Canker and or if they do, they only know about it in a very superficial way, looking only for inflamitory debris in the Mouth, and remain ignorant about it's other opr subtler signs, odors, and possible variety of expressions/locations in the Bird.

This is almost beyond imagination to me, that posturing 'professionals' can be so smug, insular, stupid, ignorant, and self satisfied, while learning nothing for all presentations over which they briefly pontificate, over years or decades of their supposed 'practice'.

The people-medical 'industry' if anything, is even worse of course.


But anyway...


If you and Karyn Bird are fine with doing both the Tube Forrmula feeds, and, the whole small to medium sized Seed feeds, then all the better - the ripe Mango puree and other goodies in the formula are still useful for their health and recovery and clearing their system of toxins left over from the illness phase. A little Curry Powder in the formula is fine also of course, is very good in fact, just as long as it is not made 'hotter' than say what an average child or inexperienced westerner or other could handle if not used to it.


Guess who just brought home another Case of ripe Mangoos?

Me!

Lol...

Yummmmm...


----------



## rum175

Well said about these so called pros. I wish they understand the implications of their half baked knowledge on such innocent birds. Truly speaking I am afraid to go them now. 

Bird Karyn is behaving normal today. It is active and roaming around on one leg. In fact it is stretching its neck a lot and looking around as if wants to fly. 

We have few varieties of curry powders at home. Typically they contain chilly powder, cinnamon powder, clove powder, cardamom powder, coriander seed powder and pepper powder, dried curry leave powder etc. Please advice what is good for Bird Karyn. We will custom-make one powder suitable for it.

Good to know that you too are a mango fan. My wife too. Sometimes she skips her dinner just to relish mangos. You know what? My place is a great place for mangos. We get around 20-25 varieties of mangos in here. We tasted almost 7-8 varieties this season. 

Thanks and regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Adding a little Cayenne, and Tumeric, and a little Garlic, would probably be good...not too 'Hot' though of course, far as the Cayenne goes.

These can compliment many Medicines, as well as being good by themselves.


At some point, when Bird Karyn is feeling a little better yet, they likely WILL get that 'look', and, take off flying, so, be careful for when that day comes, since of course, if they ever got out into the World again, they would starve for want of an upper Beak, even if able to peck from Deep Seeds in a Bowl.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

We have these items in our kitchen and we use them. 

I will be worred if Bird Karyn flies away. It will go hunger and rest of the flock may not treat it very well. However, it may need couple of more months to get to that state.

I could hand feed it twice today and it consumed good amount of whole seeds. I gave medication through syrenge feed as usual. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Thanks Phil. We are slowly recovering from the shock. We could not digest the fact that it lost its beak. My Daughter cried seeing that and entire family was disturbed yesterday. We are getting back to reality and normal senses now.
> 
> We all decided to give extra care and help Bird Karyn to overcome this crisis. Moreover, we are getting a great support and advice from you all.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


Yes, this must have come as quite a shock to you and your family, even though it has been mentioned a few times this may indeed happen, I guess although we were aware there may end up being significant damage to the area, we were hoping it would not come to the loss of her upper beak.

Please be very careful with Bird Karyn as she recovers, it is very important she never, ever has a chance to get away to the wild again, as she will certainly die if this were to happen. So be careful of open windows, doors and so on, or also taking her outside for some "sun/air" not in a cage, as when recovering one day they can't fly well, the next the can fly quite well, so I don't want you and your family to have to suffer this heartbreak if she escapes, treat her like she can fly from now on.

Glad you able to help her with food and she is trying to make the adjustment to her new life with only half a beak, keep her on the meds for a little while yet.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

I just got in a Wild 'Dumpster Pigeon' a few days ago, wh oonly has about half an upper Beak, which is also a little twisted. 

Appears to me to have been from an injury while still a Baby.

Their Feathers are covered in waxy oxidised Cooking Oil residu, and, they were a little ill but appearing already to be responding well to the Meds.


Probably this Pigeon has been living on discarded fast foods, whom he has learned to eat with a special technique.


He seemed VERY happy to see Seeds, and, pecked furiously at them with some success.

Oddly, he does better with the larger Seeds, which instead of pecking, he simply leans over, tilts his Head a little, and, gets his lower Beak under the Seed, and, opens his mouth, and, gets it brought it with his Tongue.

This manner is what Bird Karyn will be learning to do, and, the Hand Feeding of Seeds for now, will help them learn to open their Mouth wide enough in the way of getting the Seed, where, before, when pecking, it was only the tip of the Beak which opened enough to grasp the Seed, and, the Mouth proper hardly opening at all until the Seed was brought back...so, they have to relearn this to be able to eat Seeds on his own, and, they will and do relearn it, too.

But relearning this may not permit the Bird to get Seeds off of a flat surface, and, they may require a depth of Seeds in order to get their extant Mandible under the Seeds from above.

Some can learn to do this from the side, which is better of course, for occasions of the Seeds being merely scattered or not deep enough.


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn & Phil

I will take necessary precautions so that it doesnt fly away into wild. I would have preferred this bird to get into regular flock had it not lost its beak but now it would be very dangerous for Bird Karyn to survive outside.

I am giving medicines as usual. It is active and responding to hand feeding very well. 

I tried few large seeds (dried green peas) to see how it responds. It swalloed them very well. I gave 4-6 green peas today. I wish it learns to peck seeds from side as Phil described. I am sure Bird Karyn is smart enough to learn that technique after learning to peck from a deep bowl.

I have one question. The place where it lost its upper beak appears moist still. do you want to me apply any medicine there so that it heals fast. I am also worried about other infections. What about painting? We didnt apply DSMO+Flagyl solution to its lower beak in the past. Does it require now? Please advice.

Thanks and regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

rum175 said:


> Hello Karyn & Phil
> 
> I will take necessary precautions so that it doesnt fly away into wild. I would have preferred this bird to get into regular flock had it not lost its beak but now it would be very dangerous for Bird Karyn to survive outside.



Yes...

If released, they would pretty well certainly starve to death...or, the possibility of them somehow managing to be able to eat available food kinds, enough to survive, in my opinion, is pretty slim.




> I am giving medicines as usual. It is active and responding to hand feeding very well.



I kind of lost track, but, the Medicine for treating the suspected paratyphoid, needs to go on for a while anyway...

Karyn is always much better than I am at keeping track of these things.




> I tried few large seeds (dried green peas) to see how it responds. It swalloed them very well. I gave 4-6 green peas today. I wish it learns to peck seeds from side as Phil described. I am sure Bird Karyn is smart enough to learn that technique after learning to peck from a deep bowl.



Iy just takes them a while to learn new ways.

Glad the larger Seeds and Peas are going well...no eason not to do plenty of those if he seems to like them.

You can just place a pea on to the part of his lower Beak which is close to his forehead now, and, then, gently lower the lower Beak, and, he should open his Mouth and get the Pea.

Since you two have been doing this now for a couple days, I think you could start working with their Seed Bowl in addition...where, Seed Bowl in front of them, mixed size and kinds of Seeds in it, at least an inch or inch and a half or more of Seeds...

And, sort of tilt the Seed Bowl toward him, as you also gently coax his face into it, for his Beak - such as it is now - to go into the Seeds.

This is a delicate thing of course, since you do not want to offend him or appear to be bullying, but, in other words, either let him Peck and see how he is doing, or, in addition to that, gently demonstrte how he now needs to put his lower Beak deeper in to the Seeds, than he used to.

And continue to hand Feed the Seeds, also, as described above and as you have been.

If he wants to peck, let him, even if he is not getting anything or getting much, it wil also help him re-learn to find a new method.



> I have one question. The place where it lost its upper beak appears moist still. do you want to me apply any medicine there so that it heals fast. I am also worried about other infections. What about painting? We didnt apply DSMO+Flagyl solution to its lower beak in the past. Does it require now? Please advice.



Can you post come good, well lit, close up images of his face there?


Also some of to-days fresh poop images?




Thanks and regards

Ramana[/QUOTE]



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, would it be possible to get Bird Karyn cleaned up quite well around her whole beak/face/neck area with a little warm, soapy water on a cloth (not too wet, as we don't want any running into her mouth) and get a few photos of her right side, where there still seems to be some necrotic tissue attached, you can also do a shot of her left side.

As mentioned, keep her on the meds for a while yet, there really won't be too many worries about other infections while on her meds. Do they sell any antibiotic ointments there?... I had a look at the Kiskin ointment you have and it an anti-mycotic cream (anti-fungal), and will not be suitable for using a little on the cere area (nose), you want an antibiotic ointment, one we use a fair amount on pigeons here is Neosporin, see what the pharmacist recommends for an over-the-counter AB ointment.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil and Karyn

There is a good improvement in terms of Bird Karyn picking seeds by itself. Infact without my effort it reaches the bowl and try to grab seeds. It succeeded in several attempts. One good part is that it learned a lesson. It realized that slow pecking is more successful than high speed pecking. 

In addition to that I hand feeded to make sure that it doesn't sleep starving. I will try this new technique of placing a seed on its beek and lowering the lower one little bit see how it swallows.

I will post a pic of its poop and few pics of its beak area early tomorrow. Bird Karyn finished its supper, took medicines and retired to bed some time back. 

We do get Neosporin here. Infact we do have Neosporin in powder form. Please advice.

Thanks and regards.

Have a great day!

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, you want to pick up a tube of the ointment, not any powders, here's what it will look like: http://www.neosporin.com/firstaid/neosporin.asp?sec=0&page=15

Glad she is will and eager to learn how to manage with her new situation, it will take a bit of time, but I am sure she will get there, but do please continue to supplement her food for a while yet. Also, as I mentioned before, it would really good to be able to weigh her every day or two, to make sure her weight is either stable or increasing, we do not want her losing any weight.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

This is the latest pic of its poop.


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn and Phil

Please see these pics of its beak. I tried to clean it as much as possible but didn't want to hurt it. That area is still sensitive and Bird Karyn didn't cooperate. 

We do have Neosprin in onintment form and I will start using it after your review of these pics.

Again I will check its weight tomorrow and let you know. 

Today it appeard bit dull and shown lethargy. It could not walk on its good leg today. I will send couple of clear pics of its legs tomorrow so that you can advice me on what needs to be done to its legs.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, excellent photos, very helpful. I want you to try please try and rest her as much as possible in the "donut" set up I posted a link for a little while ago. I want you to to get the Neosporin and a small brush and at the top beak area, where the beak fell off, the "nose" area, I want you to "paint" a bit of the ointment on the front of this area, where the closing wound is, NOT all over, just on the scabbing end area. Also, you can reduce the meds down not to once a day dosing for the Metronidazole and the Cipro, so instead of giving 0.15cc (15mg) of the Metronidazole twice a day and the Cipro 0.10cc (5mg), you will give the same dose, but now only once. With the necrotic tissue on the right side of her face you can continue to paint that with the liquid Metronidazole/DMSO, but my feeling is the canker infection has been eradicated from her body at this point and that tissue will fall off in time as well, we can hope there is only superficial damage in that area.

Getting a weight would be very good, and the dropping looks like it has a good amount of volume and solids.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Thanks Karyn

I reduced the meds as you suggested and started using Neosporin. I could not get its weight checked today. I will let you know its weight and send few pics of its legs. Now that Canker problem is pretty much solved, you may advice me on bringing it back on its legs. 

Have a nice weekend. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Thanks Karyn
> 
> I reduced the meds as you suggested and started using Neosporin. I could not get its weight checked today. I will let you know its weight and send few pics of its legs. Now that Canker problem is pretty much solved, you may advice me on bringing it back on its legs.
> 
> Have a nice weekend.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


There is a chance the leg problem could be related to infection and we may want to try another medicine to see if it could help, see if you can find a antibiotic called Amoxicillin. I want to finish a full two weeks of the Cipro first, before making any changes (this is to in order to complete a full course treatment for salmonella), but if you pick up the other med before hand, we will not have to wait, if we decide to start treatment, you will just need 2-3 500mg capsules. There is also the chance that just having her rest the leg as much as possible, in her donut, will be of help as well, also, please continue will the Meloxicam, 1 drop every 24 hours.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I will procure Amoxicillin tomorrow. I am trying to keep it on donut but it bird Karyn doesn't sit there sometimes. She prefers to sit on a bedsheet.


Regards


----------



## pdpbison

Put the Do-Nut on the Bedsheet?

( Lol...)


----------



## rum175

Bird Karyn is smart.


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I got Amoxicillin 500mg capsules today. Please advice the dosage. 

Please see these pics of its claws. As mentioned earlier, it was able to walk only on its left leg. However, right leg was in a decent shape and in good color when we found it. Though it was unable to use right leg but it was good. Now we can see some swelling on its right leg.

Its weight is 275 gms today morning. Not much of variation from previous weight.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, mixing the Amoxicillin will be very similar to the Cipro. I want you to open up two of the 500mg capsules and add them to a small container, I then want you to add 10mL of honey to this, stir very well then cover and let sit 20 minutes, then stir well again and you will have a 10% Amoxicillin suspension. I want you to dose Bird Karyn with 0.40cc (40mg) of this suspension twice a day (every 12 hours) and you ca start right away. I want you to still give the Cipro 5mg, once a day for a few more days yet as well and I want you to reduce the dose of Metronidazole again to 0.10cc once a day (10mg). Know that I see the swelling I also want you to see if you can pick up another antibiotic called Doxycycline, it comes in a sizes, a common one is 100mg and you should get 5 capsule, or the equivalent of 500mg.

Swelling like this in pigeons, when not caused by injury, are a good deal of the time associated with an infection caused by salmonella bacteria and Cipro would be a drug of choice to treat this. However, there are a few other types of bacteria that can cause similar swelling and because we don't have the option of doing tests on Bird Karyn to try and find out which bacteria are present we may have to try a few different antibiotics, alone and in combination to see if we get a positive response to treatment (if indeed bacteria are causing the swelling). The 275g weight, while low, is not alarmingly low, and in fact up a bit from the previous 260g, so all in all for what she has been through, and still going through, not too bad.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I just gave first dose of Amoxicillin and it just retired to bed (donut precisely). I will get Doxycycline tomorrow. Previously it was keeping its right claw on ground normally though it was not tilting its weight on it but for last 3-4 days it was keeping its right claw folded and that could be one reason for swelling. It is not able to use its left leg, though it looks normal even today. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,



He has some sort of systemic or infection or Salmonella issues there with the Leg and Foot...hard to guess exactly what, but, I am pretty sure it is an infection related process or an auto-immune process...and is not caused by any stance, or way of laying down.

You could gently massage the afflicted Leg and Foot and Toes, in cool Water ( if he would let you ) and, see how he takes to that after a few rounds...if he takes to it alright with cool water ( Birds always seem to like cool Water ) then slowly change it on to being tepid to warm-ish Water and see if he will still go along with it...since this will mechanically aid in improving the Circulation there, thus bettering the penetration/saturation of the Meds.


Do you have an Electric Heating Pad?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil,

I will do as you said. Do we call it Pigeotherapy 

We don't have any heating pad at home but I can procure one. It was summer upto last week and temparatures were around 108 F. Mansoon arrived this week. Temparatures dropped down to 90 F now. Bird Karyn is enjoying current weather now. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Oh that's right, you would have about the same Seasons as we do here.

Gets up to 128 or so outside of Town here, to the North.

One can get a little woozy if doing Hard Labor out of Doors in those heats.

In Town, 118 is not uncommon, low 120s on the outskirts.

It is a fairly dry heat though, thankfully!

No Monsoons here, but in July usually, we do get some heavy Rains and flooding ( I got flooded three times myself in this location, and that was not fun...)


Anyway, I was just musing on ways to increase Blood Circulation to the Leg and Foot and Toes...the Massages would wo well for that, so, really, no need for a Heating Pad in addition.


----------



## rum175

Thanks Phil. I will do little bit of massage to improve its blood circulation. 

Yes, our weather is close to Texas weather and it is dry. We are almost 200 miles away from sea coast and not much of humidity but due to mansoons, we get good amount of rains from June to Sep. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn and Phil

Here is a quick update.

It appears that Amoxicillin is working very well on Bird Karyn. Its left leg is getting back to normal and it is able sit and move around with little bit of balancing issues. 

Beak area is getting hard and it is not that sensitive now. I am still hand feeding it and will continue for few of more days until its beak area completly heals.

Thanks and regards

Ramana


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Hello Karyn and Phil
> 
> Here is a quick update.
> 
> It appears that Amoxicillin is working very well on Bird Karyn. Its left leg is getting back to normal and it is able sit and move around with little bit of balancing issues.
> 
> Beak area is getting hard and it is not that sensitive now. I am still hand feeding it and will continue for few of more days until its beak area completly heals.
> 
> Thanks and regards
> 
> Ramana


Ramana, thanks for the positive update on Bird Karyn. Sounds like she is doing well under your care, keep doing what you are doing, but still try and get her to rest her legs for a little while longer yet, as best you can, good job.

Forget to mention it was Pidgey's call, by PM, to try her on the Amoxicillin.

Ramana, you can stop the Metronidazole today and the Cipro on Thursday, but we will continue with the Meloxicam and the Amoxicillin.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Very good!


----------



## rum175

Nice, thanks to Pidgey for her advice. 

I stopped Metrodanizole today and will stop Cipro tomorrow onwards

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


Please continue to post fresh poop images, and, an image of them standing, too!


Phil
Lv


----------



## Pidgey

Well... let's hold off on thank-you's until this bird comes a lot further out of this mess. This has been one really sick bird. There are different types of illnesses and Bird Karyn has demonstrated enough kinds of symptoms to indicate that this might be one really rough road yet. The fact is that immune systems run the gamut from being useless to being too trigger-happy. Just looking at Bird Karyn's pictures scares me to death about her future prognosis because her immune system to date hasn't performed very well. Antibiotics, by the way, work WITH immune systems--they can't replace them.

Okay, so... we currently seem to be winning a battle or two--it doesn't mean that we're going to win the war. That said, look sharp and keep a close eye out for anything that might signal a turn for the worse. Sorry to be so serious but my mood will lift when I see the right signals.

Pidgey


----------



## rum175

I understand Pidgey. I am trying to be courteous to three of you. Couple of weeks back I raised an alarm after failing to locate a good vet here. India is still not a pet country and there are limited resources as far as animals/birds are concerned. I got wonderful support from all of you. There is no other way to repay this support and hence I sprinkle "Thanks" everywhere. Otherwise, I would be considered as a rude person.

Yes, we are making a good progress but still Bird Karyn is under risk. I am mentally prepared for any outcome. The important thing is that we gave a fair chance to Bird Karyn and trying out best. 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

These are the latest pics. 

Please see the right claw of Bird Karyn. It keeps its fingers folded ( I keep my fingers crossed  ). Left claw is quite normal now. There is no swelling. 

Today it tried to fly and could airbourne upto 1 feet. It is able to flip its wings gracefully but not sufficient enough to fly high. This is something that it tried after 2 months of its arrival. Now we are more careful and keeping it indoors.

One more observation is that its apetite improved after stopping Metrodizanole. I hope this is a good sign.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## Pidgey

You might try making a little "snowshoe" for that one bad foot that would hold the toes out somewhat flat and in their normal positions. You can use cardboard for the sole of the shoe.

You might also go looking for a stronger version of Amoxycillin that has Clavulanic Acid added. There are several trade names for it like Clavamox and Augmentin--you can search on those. The problem with Beta Lactams (this type of antibiotic) is that resistant strains can flourish and then you've got a superinfection down the road. That said, Clavamox is kind of a turbo-charged version that's capable of taking the fight further.

Pidgey


----------



## rum175

Sure Pidgey. I will try for Amoxycillin with Clavulanic. What about the dosage? 

I will also prepare a small shoe for it.

Regards
Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana,


The 'Shoe' can be made in the shape of a traditional child's "Kite" - a sort of diamond shape, but with the lower end of the Diamond longer than the top part.

This then represents the Foot Print of the Foot.

One then cuts a small notch for each Toe Nail to fit into or over, and, the Toe Nails then ( once the Foot is gently taped down to th Shoe ) keep the Foot open and spread out in a normal way.

The shape of the silohuette of an Ice Cream Cone is also good, and, once notched, either ends up about the same in effect.

I usually just use a small piece of Corrugated Cardbord from any ordinary brown Cardboard Box.


If the Toes seem resistent to being spread, and, you do not wish to stress them by force, make a similar shoe which is a little smaller, pad it higher in the center, so the Tpes can be spread some of the way and taped securely...then gradduate to the final Shoe after a week or so.


Has your Bird been getting Grit?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Sure Pidgey. I will try for Amoxycillin with Clavulanic. What about the dosage?
> 
> I will also prepare a small shoe for it.
> 
> Regards
> Ramana


She will get about 30mg twice a day, when you find the Clavamox, I will help you prepare a suspension depending on what size tablets you mange to get.

When I saw her foot again today, I was thinking about at least taping things in line with some Micropore tape, but a shoe may be a better way to go.

Good thoughts on both the move to Clavamox and a shoe for the foot.

Yes, there are notations that Metronidazole can cause a negative effect on a bird's appetite, so I am glad to hear you feel it has picked up since stopping that med.


Karyn


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn and Pidgey

I got Amoxycillin with Clavulanic tablets. It is called Augmentin (375 mg) here. The breakup of Amoxycillin and Clavulanic is 250 and 125 mg respectively. Please let me know how do I prepare its suspension. 

Hello Phil: These guidelines are useful to prepare a shoe for Bird Karyn. I just reached home and will prepare one shortly.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

A little soft padding for the center area where their weight would be, is good to do...makes it more comfortable.


----------



## rum175

Sure Phil. I will use padding as well.

I could not get grit for it. I tried for it last week but no use. They only sell mixed seeds but not any grit. Is there any way I can prepare it at home?

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Pigeon Grit is usually made of pulverized Oyster Shells to which some other things are added - palitable/edible Charcoal, crushed Granite.

So if you could get Oyster Shells, and also some Granite, you could make the main and most salient ingredient by crushing them or hammering them in a heavy cloth Bag on Concrete or something, wash and seperate out the size range for the Bird, to end up with clean and correctly sized pieces the size of smaller size Seeds.

Charcoals would be asy to make also, but one would have to elect correctly the appropriate Wood Species for the result to be safe, edible/palitable.


I do not what Wood Species would be used for making palitable/edible Charcoals, but now that I am thinking about this, it is an interesting question, including that most Wood Charcoals will contains small amounts of Creosote, which is a natural Antibiotic, so this would be something interesting to research.


Of the several ingredients, the crushed Oyster Shell would be regarded as the most important I think, particularly for Hens, with the crushed Granite, following.


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I got Amoxycillin with Clavulanic tablets. It is called Augmentin (375 mg) here. The breakup of Amoxycillin and Clavulanic is 250 and 125 mg respectively. Please let me know how do I prepare its
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


Ramana, crush up as fine as you can two of the Augmentin pills (the Clavulanic in the pills makes them a little harder to crush up fine, but do your best), then add 10mL of honey, stir well, cover let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 7.5% Augmentin suspension to dose with (75mg/mL). I want you to give Bird Karyn 0.40cc (30mg) of the suspension twice a day (q12h) for now.

As usual, keep in the refrigerator between use and stir/shake well before each use.


Karyn


----------



## rum175

Thanks Karyn. I just started this new suspension from today. I will continue it until further advice.


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil,

I think I can get oyster shells and granite powder here. I will prepare little bit of grit with this combination. I will avoid charcoal for now. How do I feed it. I am still hand feeding Bird Karyn and it and it may need 4-5 more days to start pecking seeds by itself. 

Shoe project didn't go very well. It pulled off its toe nails from those notches. 

Regards
Ramana


----------



## Pidgey

Best not to use anything sticky (like the sticky side of tape) on that foot--it'd be best if it fit like a sock.

So, other than that, how's Bird Karyn doing?

Pidgey


----------



## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Hello Phil,
> 
> I think I can get oyster shells and granite powder here. I will prepare little bit of grit with this combination. I will avoid charcoal for now. How do I feed it. I am still hand feeding Bird Karyn and it and it may need 4-5 more days to start pecking seeds by itself.
> 
> Shoe project didn't go very well. It pulled off its toe nails from those notches.
> 
> Regards
> Ramana


Ramana, I don't think it is wise to give Bird Karyn granite powder, I have concerns for this powder interfering with her GI tract. If you can find the correct sized oyster shells, this would be OK. but again, I am nervous about "making do" and using something not specifically designed to be consumed by pigeons/doves, as right now she is in a very delicate state.

Here are some links for an alternative to a shoe, two of the links show taping feet using a type of bandage called Vet-wrap, also known as cohesive bandage and sometimes also called sports wrap. It is a soft, breathable, synthetic bandage that when compressed on itself fuses together and can't be undone. The last link shows the feet wrapped again, this time using Micropore tape to get the feet aligned into a "V" configuration of \l/ for the toe spacing.

It's very important to note that all of the bandages used in each of these links is breathable, meaning air can pass in and out, make 100% sure the tape you use is breathable, there are very many brands, perhaps your pharmacist can assist you with this. As Phil mentioned before, don't force anything, if any toe(s) don't want to straighten completely out, just ball some cotton gauze and tape the toes to the ball and slowly straighten them. To get the Micropore tape off you would just apply a bit of Baby Oil to the tape wait a few minutes and will come right off, with the Vetwrap, once set and compressed, it will have to be very carefully cut of using a fine pair of scissors.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ar-given-tiny-rare-chick-straighten-feet.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/gnarled-toes-and-splay-leg-45955.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=528643&postcount=26

EDIT: I just saw Pidgey's post and if he does not think that anything sticky should be used on the foot at this time, go with the Cohesive/Vet-wrap type bandage.


Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

I say that because parts of that foot look similar to wound dehiscence--at least, that last picture does. Have to be so careful with that kind of stuff.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

So for Pete's sake then, Lol, just lay a little Paper Towel OVER any worrysome Toes, and, then, Tape the Foot and Toes to the Shoe.


'Vet Wrap' is an absolute nightmare and does not 'breathe' once it is layered over itself...and it "fuses' into a solid mass of impossible plastic/rubber material which then takes hours of tedious hassles to remove.

Horrible, I wish every Vet who ever applies that wretched stuff was also the poor pilgrim who had to remove it two weeks later - they would NEVER use it again.


If lacking anything better, slit some small lengths of plain old ordinary "Masking Tape" into 1/4 wide ribbons, and, use that for securing the Shoe...

Pad under the Foot as appropriate, and, lightly pad on top of the Foot and Toes using Paper Towel, and THAT then is what is in contact with the adhesive side of the Tape.

Later, this may be removed easily and safely, using an ordinary pair of Cuticle Scissors.


The Granite found in Pigeon Grit is not powder - it is clean, washed, small pieces about the size of a Milo Seed ( say, 1/8th or 3/16ths of an inch in diameter ).


Oyster Shell does not crush or break up like Granite does, since it is originally depoisited or accrued in thin layers by the Oyster, so it tends to crush or break up like Shale or Slate would, into small irregular layered pieces or small flakes.


Pigeons masticate their Seeds in their Gizzard, and, their Grit is used by the Gizzard to aid in this process of mastication, hence, Rock 'powder' would be of no value - the Grit has to be small natural and appropriate objects which the Gizzard uses to grind the Seeds into a fine powder...even though of course, over time, the process also reduces the Grit into powder, which is passed along, along with the powder into which the Seeds or other foods are then.


The Shoes I make and use, are shaped like a child's Kite, or, like a Diamond, but with a slightly trunkated top, or like the outline of an Ice Cream Cone.

They must be made to fit the actual Footprint in question.

The Toe Nails fit into notches one provides, in order to keep the Foot and Toes spread into, or toward a normal footprint, and to do so comfortably, and this as mentioned may be accomplished in stages.


Vet Wrap is also absurdly too thick for warpping around a 'Shoe', let alone once applied in several layers, let alone all the other horrors of it's use, especially in a warm clime or over 'Neosporin', where it basically melts and fuses into a horrible mass of impossible viscous plastic which nothing will readily cut once one is wishing to remove it.


Scotch Tape would be infinitely better than Vet Wrap, for that matter.

1/4 wide Strips of ordinary Masking Tape would be fine.

'Micropore' Tape of narrow width is best.



Love,

Phil
L v


----------



## rum175

Hello Pidgey,

Bird Karyn is doing fine. Lot of preening these days. Diet in take improved for the last two days still sustaining. Not much of improvement in its legs though. I could not work on its shoe due to few other errands and just came home. I will work on it tomorrow leisurely as it is a sunday.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Hello Karyn

I could not work on Bird Karyn shoe today but I will work on it tomorrow. These links are very useful and I think I can be able to design one tomorrow.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

Hello Phil

Sorry for this late reply. I was busy with few errands. I went through your message on Grit and its purpose. I will put little more effort tomorrow and see what best options I have here.

Lot of inputs from you and Karyn on shoe design. I will design one tomorrow. 

Its poop is normal and no change. I will post a pic tomorrow.

Regards
Ramana


----------



## rum175

Please see these pics


----------



## rum175

Hello Everyone

Please see these pics. Finally I could prepare one shoe for Bird Karyn.

Procedure:

1. I used a soft cardboard in a shape of Ice cream cone.
2. I took a micropore tape and cut two strips of 10 cm each. I pressed these two strips together facing glue side. Now I have one strip of 10 cm length and without any glue either side.
3. I prepared 4 tubes of 3 cm, 2.5 cm,2.5 cm and 2 cm for front toes. I sprinkled little bit Neosporin power in those tubes to make them extra dry. 
4. These three tubes were glued to cardboard and see the pic. 
5. We inserted front three toes into these tubes first. Later we inserted the fourth (smallest) tube over its back toe.
6. Finally we applied glue on to the cardboard and gently pressed its back toe on to the glue. Now all four toes are perfectly covered with the tubes and tubes are glued to the cardboard. All these toes get adequate air flow as they have openings both sides.

I didn’t find any difficulty in stretching or spreading its toes. They are soft and not much of movements.

This design is different but I took best guidelines from all of you and came out with this design. I hope this is ok. After fixing this shoe, Bird Karyn took a nap. 

Rest is normal. Please see its poop pic in next post. Diet intake is normal. It appears bit dull some times and shows lot of energy in next few minutes. It is quite random.

Regards

Ramana


----------



## rum175

This is the lastest pic of its poop.


----------



## Dobato

Ramana, to me, looks like a very nice job. The one suggestion I have is you are going to have to go over the foot with either some Micropore tape to keep the shoe on, and in position, or go over things with a few wraps of cotton gauze ( you will cut a the gauze into 1/2" roll), then bit of regular adhesive tape over it, to keep the gauze in place, dropping looks OK as well.

Karyn


----------



## rum175

Sure Karyn. I will use micropore tape to keep shoe on. It is slowly adusting to it 

Regards

Ramana


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 


You are quite an Artist/Craftsman!

Beautiful Work there with the Shoe.


It would work better though if you make small notches on the edges, for the Toe Nails to fit over...and, to use two layers of the particular Cardboard you have elected.

You want for the Toe to be flat against the Cardboard without the Nail elevating it at the end...so the Shoe needs to be thicker, and, with the Notches for the Nails, the tip of the Nail ends up being just barely touching the Ground or walking surfaces...so, two layers or even three of that Cardboard would likely be about right...you'll just have to see.

The Cardboard I use comes from regular larger Cardboard Boxes, and is a lot thicker.


Pad the middle area of the Shoe a little for comfort, ( a little folded Paper Towel or similar soft material ) add notches for the Toe Nails...and, you can just use the Micropore Tape directly over the Foot or retain the tiny 'Tubes' if you like, making a few wraps around the bottom of the Shoe...and that would be fine. It will come off easily later, and, that way, each Toe stays in place well.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## rum175

Thanks Phil,

I incorporated your suggestions and used a micropore tape as a wrap over those tiny tubes and shoe cardboard. I pushed little bit of cotton under its claw. I will add few notches to make those nails rest comfortably early tomorrow. 

It went back to sleep now 

regards

Ramana


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## pdpbison

Okay...

But, yes, for the Bird's comfort, it is best if the center of the Foot is elevated a little, and, for the Nails of the Toes to be the lowest portion of the arrange.


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## rum175

I just removed the shoe of Bird Karyn to see how it is. It improved from last time and there is not much of swelling now. I will post few pics of its right claw tonight. 

Just wondering about medicines. I am still continuing the following

Augmentin (30mg twice a day)
Meloxicam (2 drops once in a day)

Otherwise Bird Karyn is active and not much of change for the last couple of days.

Regards

Ramana


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> I just removed the shoe of Bird Karyn to see how it is. It improved from last time and there is not much of swelling now. I will post few pics of its right claw tonight.
> 
> Just wondering about medicines. I am still continuing the following
> 
> Augmentin (30mg twice a day)
> Meloxicam (2 drops once in a day)
> 
> Otherwise Bird Karyn is active and not much of change for the last couple of days.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana



Ramana, I think we can dial back the meds a bit to:

Augmentin from 30mg twice a day (.040cc) to 22.5mg twice a day (0.30)
Meloxicam from 2 drops once in a day, to 1 drop once a day.

Glad she is active and the foot is making some progress, will wait for the new photos.

Karyn


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## rum175

Hello Karyn

I reduced the dosage per your advice. Please see the latest pics of its claws. First one shows both the claws. There is still some kind of swelling on its right claw but it is relatively better from last week. Left claw is normal in the second pic.

Regards

Ramana


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## Dobato

Ramana, thanks for the photos. With infections that involve the joints, it may be sometime before we get a more full idea just how well the joints will return to a "normal" look, as the infection may cause some residual affects that may not allow the joints to completely return to look as they did before they where infected, but still allow function.

Karyn


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## rum175

Thanks Karyn. I agree. We will wait to see its progress. 

Regards

Ramana


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## pdpbison

Hi Ramana, 



I just wanted to mention how wonderful it is that you have given this Pigeon so much care, Love, time, deference and just plain Work, that they may Live, and, recover - as much as can be - from their woes.


I just got in six youngsters a few days ago, two one day, three the next, one more the next day, two are ill, four are fine but all are too young to have been away from mom-n-dad, and, no idea where they came from, other than they appear to have walked here.

Lots of 'Peeping' and twirling and so on, come chow times here now.

Heard it was 114, but, don't know for sure...getting hot though, no mystery about that!


I had a pretty hot Curry Rice meal for supper, now I am really perspiring! 

Lol...


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## rum175

Thanks Phil for these good words. Initially I rescued it to keep my Daughter happy but later we all fell in love with it. Everyone at home shows concern towards it now. Ours is a big family. We all stay together. My dad, My wife's parents stay with us too. So five adults and my daughter look after it these days.

For me this is second pigeon but I admire you all out there for helping quite a few pigeons and advising hundreds of people across the world. You are truly dove angels. Keep-up the good work.

Those six young pigeons that reached are lucky. They reached the right person and now they are in safe hands. 

Well, we are in the southern part of India where spicy food is quite common here. In fact my wife hails from a place where chillies are pretty famous. 

with regards

Ramana


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## Pidgey

While the infection was raging, the body was changing the tissues by adding stuff (excess tissue layers and bone) to try and "wall off" the infection. Once the antibiotics started penetrating that and killed off or seriously reduced the infection, the body no longer needed to do that. That's called the "inflammatory response", by the way. This is a key concept: "while form defines function, function also defines form." That means that the actual use of an appendage will ultimately define or redefine the shapes of the individual components as long as their original structure remained somewhat intact. That said, hopefully Bird Karyn will use the foot--you will have to tell us how well that's going. If Bird Karyn uses the foot more and more, some or all of the swelling and bone changes will or should eventually "remodel" themselves closer to the original design parameters. I guess we'll see.

Pidgey


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## rum175

Hello Pidgey

As of now it is still crawling. It crawls from place to place by flipping its wings and gets little bit of thrust and then uses its left leg to move around. It doesn’t use its left leg completely though. Relatively situation is better after we started using Augmentin

I am using a shoe for its right leg for two days and then removing it for one day so that it gets proper air. It keeps its toes stretched immediately after removing the shoe for few hours and again keeps them in folded state. There is no inflammation on its right leg now.

I am still hand feeding it as it is unable to balance properly. 

Regards

Ramana


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Hello Pidgey
> 
> As of now it is still crawling. It crawls from place to place by flipping its wings and gets little bit of thrust and then uses its left leg to move around. It doesn’t use its left leg completely though. Relatively situation is better after we started using Augmentin
> 
> I am using a shoe for its right leg for two days and then removing it for one day so that it gets proper air. It keeps its toes stretched immediately after removing the shoe for few hours and again keeps them in folded state. There is no inflammation on its right leg now.
> 
> I am still hand feeding it as it is unable to balance properly.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana



Ramana, I would like you to once again decrease the dose of the Augmentin from the current 0.30cc (22.5mg) down to 0.20cc (15mg) twice a day and keep the Meloxicam at 1 drop. Good to hear you feel the inflammation is gone and that there is progress being made with the shoe. Good job.

Karyn


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## rum175

Thanks Karyn. I will reduce this dosage starting from tomorrow. 

Regards

Ramana


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## Pidgey

Can you post an updated of picture of Bird Karyn so that we can see all of her?

Pidgey


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## rum175

Sure Pidgey, I will post few pics tomorrow. Have a good day!


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## rum175

Hello Pidgey

Please see the below youtube video that consists pics of Bird Karyn. These are taken today. I removed its shoe from right leg yesterday. It keeps left leg toes folded when not moving. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovm9l5iqe0s


You can observe a small injury on its belly. I noticed that just today while taking pics. After taking the pics, I applied neosporin on it.

Few tail feathers started sprouting after few days of we rescuing it but it lost them due to canker I believe. Similarly there are no feathers on its upper back. I wish they regrow after its moulting stage. 

Regards

Ramana


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## Pidgey

Well... I have some worries. My worst one is that the absolute underlying cause could be Circovirus. If it is, then there will be a gradual degeneration. Circovirus compromises the immune system and you slowly seem to fight more and more battles on increasing fronts. We need to keep an eye on all the production of all of the longer feathers like the tail feathers and the primary flight feathers (the longest ones on the wings). If they start disappearing and growing back shorter then it would be almost confirmed. Mind you, I don't have any personal experience with Circovirus but have some illustrations and write-ups in my various avian veterinary books.

Of course, there's probably stuff we don't know about how much good preening does for feathers and Bird Karyn obviously can't do that very well. I suppose it could possibly do some good to get Bird Karyn on a vitamin D3 supplement because that's actually how they produce and absorb that vitamin: through sunlight on the feathers--they basically ingest the vitamin while preening their feathers and it's somehow in their feathers that the vitamin D3 is produced from the sunlight.

Pidgey


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## rum175

Thanks Pidgey. 

I will keep observing its feathers for any irregularities. It does preening regularly with its mandible beak and we keep it in sunshine for an hour or so everyday. 

How do I suppliment D3? shall I get those tablets and mix them in drinking water? You may please advice.

My biggest worry is about its legs. If it can regain them then that would solve lot of problems. Please comment.

Regards

Ramana


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## rum175

Hello Everyone

This is a quick update on Bird Karyn. 

1. She is in a good condition and relatively active compared to last week.
2. Apetite is good and it is able to peck seeds from a deep bowl by itself
3. No change in its legs. It is still unable to walk.
4. I am still continuing medicines (Augumentin 22.5 mg and Meloxicam 1 drop)

Please advise on medication.

Regards
ramana


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Hello Everyone
> 
> This is a quick update on Bird Karyn.
> 
> 1. She is in a good condition and relatively active compared to last week.
> 2. Apetite is good and it is able to peck seeds from a deep bowl by itself
> 3. No change in its legs. It is still unable to walk.
> 4. I am still continuing medicines (Augumentin 22.5 mg and Meloxicam 1 drop)
> 
> Please advise on medication.
> 
> Regards
> ramana


Ramana, I have been thinking about Bird Karyn, thanks for the update on her. I think we can further reduce the dose of the Augmentin down to 0.20cc (15mg) twice a day ans continue with the 1 drop of Meloxicam a day for now. Let's see what Pidgey thinks, as he may want to go with something different that what I just suggested and I would certainly defer to him on this.

When you hold her and pull her each of her legs out, does she try and pull her leg back from you?... if so, does one leg feel stronger than the other?..or any other observations you make when doing this?.. does she try to walk and fail?... does she still get up on the one leg?... do you think you could post a new photo of her foot/leg?...does the bad leg have no support at all for her?... can she use it some to shift position, then rely on the better leg?

Karyn


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## rum175

Hello Karyn

Good to hear from you. 

I will reduce the dosage as you mentioned. Bird Karyn's left leg is very strong and she pulls it back when we hold. Where as right leg is limp right from the day we found her and there is no change in that situation. She is trying to walk on left leg hopping and got little balancing issues. I will post latest pics tomorrow. 

Regards

Ramana


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## Pidgey

Getting a little foggy on this one... so we know that there's no broken bones or structural problems on that bad leg, right? That said, I suppose that it remains that the nerves were affected by the disease processes and it would be possible that Bird Karyn may never get the use back. Therapy (grasping and manipulating the leg) may help cause some revitalization and that might be the only thing we can do short of making a brace for it that like they often used to make for polio victims.

Pidgey


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## rum175

There are no broken bones for sure. It used to push its right leg backwards to avoid putting it on ground when it was walking on its left leg. These days it is unable to walk on left leg due to various other infections so not sure whether it can still control its right leg or not. Therapy is something I need to try. 

Regards

Ramana


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> There are no broken bones for sure. It used to push its right leg backwards to avoid putting it on ground when it was walking on its left leg. These days it is unable to walk on left leg due to various other infections so not sure whether it can still control its right leg or not. Therapy is something I need to try.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


Ramana, a couple of simple exercises for her would be to have someone gently hold her around her body, with two hands, hands over her wings, being careful not to squeeze/compress her chest area, then pull each leg and wait for her to offer resistance hold for a second or two, then release and repeat. You can hold the foot of each leg and "bicycle" the leg so it rotates and moves like she was peddling a bicycle. You can again hold her around her body and, let her legs touch the ground and help her stand up and down, kind of like pigeon "squats", you can control how much effort she has to exert on the leg(s) by how much you assist her up and down.

It's important to understand the results of doing this kind of therapy may not start to show results for weeks, so you have to be persistent and patient and do this in the morning and in the night, starting with a few minutes and working up over time to 10-15 minutes or rotating the exercises, keeping a close eye on the fact that she is agreeable to doing this and the exercises are not causing her discomfort.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## rum175

Thanks Karyn. These guidlines are very useful and I will start "pigeotherapy" from tomorrow onwards.

Regards

Ramana


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## Dobato

rum175 said:


> Thanks Karyn. These guidlines are very useful and I will start "pigeotherapy" from tomorrow onwards.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ramana


Two other things you could do is also massage each of her legs with your finger tips (spending a little more time on the weak right leg), you can also "cup" her in both hands under her body (you can touch the tips of your index fingers over the back of her neck to lock her in a bit), so her wings are free and kind of lower your hands quickly, this will make a pigeon most times flap their wings. You should only do this wing exercise over something soft, like a bed, or a big, fluffy, crumpled blanket on the ground, and not higher than a few feet, in case you lose your grip and she falls, she will not hurt herself. This way her wings will get some strength as well.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## rum175

Sure Karyn. I will facilitate little bit of exercise to its wings as well. I didn't realize the importance of exercise to its wings until now. May be that will help Bird Karyn to improve functioning of other organs.

Regards

Ramana


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## rum175

Hello Everyone, How are you?

Bird Karyn is doing good. I stopped Augumentin and Meloxicam last week. Not much of improvement in its legs. We are still giving mild exercises.

Recently it started getting new feathers. Lot of sprouting on its upper back and tail area. This is a good sign. It is doing lot of preening these days. 

Regards


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## Dobato

Ramana, thanks for stopping by with an update on Bird Karyn, believe it or not, I was thinking about you guys yesterday. I think we have done just about all we can an meds side of things. I would most definitely keep up with the exercised and be patient, as it may take a good number of weeks, or even months for their results to start to pay off. Glad she seems is preening up a storm , please do keep us updated in the future.

You've done a heck of a good job with her,

Karyn


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## rum175

Thanks Karyn, 

We will continue exercises for next few months. It appears to me that Bird Karyn is recovering and improving its immune system. It looks calm and composed these days, and taking care of its daily routine very well. It is also taking good amount of rest by sitting on fabric or floor. Lot of good signs.

Regards

Ramana


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## rum175

Hello Everyone,

I just wanted to update you on Bird Karyn. It got all its tail feathers and feathers on its upper back. It is looking bit healthy and pluffy due to new feathers. Mansoon is in full swing these days in the southern part of India and lots of rains. Bird Karyn is preferring to get into sunshine and bask while preening. There is not much of change in its right leg but left leg is getting better. It is able to move around easily.

Whenever I look at it, I remeber all of you for the kind of life support you gave to my darling. My sincere thanks to everyone. Have a good sunday.

with regards

Ramana


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## Dobato

Hi Ramana, thanks for stopping by with an update on Bird Karyn. I am very happy to hear she is doing well and has slowly continued to improve. I would still continue with the physio for the poor leg, as sometimes with neuro issues they can take months to resolve, or get small improvements. You have done a really super job with her, glad she gets to bask in the sun and enjoy her life with you.

Karyn


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## rum175

Hello Karyn & Phil

I hope you are all doing well. Its been a while we communicated. I am just writing this post to say hello to you all. 

Bird Karyn is doing well and very active these days

Take care, Bye


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## Dobato

Hello Ramana, good to hear from you. I am so glad to hear Bird Karyn is very active and well, thanks for the update.

Take care,

Karyn


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## rum175

Hello Karyn, 

Yes bird karyn is active and doing good. Moreover, mansoon season is over and slowly we are heading into winter season. Bird Karyn seems to be enjoying this seasonal transistion. Winters are not that harsh over here. Lowest night temparatures may be around 12-13 C. 

Thanks for writing back. Have a nice day!

Regards

Ramana


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## rum175

Hello Karyn, Phil and all other dove angels,

We wish you a merry christmas and a happy new year.

Regards

Ramana


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## rum175

Hello Karyn and Phil 
how are you doing? I just wanted to say hello to you.

Take care


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## asdfghjklasd

*found an injured pigeon. immediate help neede .*

I found a pigeon in my apartment which isn't able to fly because its neck is twisted.  its head is twisted upside down. Maybe its snapped. What can I do to fix it!? He might starve to death. What do I do!? Please someone help. 










I live in India. Bangalore.


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