# pasta like stool -



## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I'm trying to find out what's going on with a feral I have. It does have a slight injury to it's wing feathers but that "could" be because it found a way in to a caged area (more like a dog run) that I have for small wild bird feeders and could have injured itself trying to get out.
I have pulled out the three broken feathers.

It eats a lot, drinks excessively and produces *copious* amounts of very pale yellow pasta-like droppings. The droppings aren't watery, there is zero green, zero white. For lack of a better description..think of what ground hamburger looks like. 

I have him in my garage but think I'll move him into the house because I don't know what he has and I don't want to infect the other rehabs.

Yesterday... he started to shiver. My garage is heated and doesn't go below 50 degrees. As I mentioned, I'm going to bring him in and also put him on a heating pad.
I haven't treated him with any meds yet. I just got some wormout gel, but wanted to ask you guys here before I begin any sort of treament. If it is Coccidiosis, I don't have anything to treat it.

Sure could use some assistance.

Thanks,

~Jules~


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I wish I could offer more than moral support but I'm clueless. I'm sure someone with rehab experience will be on soon to help out.

Good luck.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

How is the bird's weight? Does it feel thin or is it in reasonably good condition? Not sure about the droppings--I don't have a lot of rehab experience. But my inclination would be to try the wormout gel if the bird isn't too thin/sick/weak to tolerate it. I haven't used that particular product myself and I know some wormers can be very hard on them if their health is already compromised. You want to be sure the dose is appropriate for the pigeon's weight. When the instructions give a set amount it's usually for a homer-sized bird, so keep that in mind. 

Personally I would put the pigeon on some type of heat source, as shivering can be a sign of illness. A heating pad under a towel set on low or medium will help. Can you get some of Global's Multi-mix for Canker, Coccidiosis and worms? I think it would be a good place to start. And hopefully those with rehab experience will be along soon.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Jules,

Worm-Out gel, that's made by Vetafarm? Is that Worm-Out gel Plus?

What other medications do you have on hand and do you have a way 
locally to get some? I'd keep him on a heat source as well. If I remember
correctly, shivering can be a sign of ecoli but I would have to double check that. No matter, for now we know you have a sick bird.

Also, are you saying that the droppings look like angel hair pasta w/hamburger
sauce  ....sorry, not sure from the description.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think she means that the solids of the poop are very light colored towards yellow. We've talked about liver disease producing yellow to green urates before but some liver problems actually produce light colored stools. This is usually due to the lack of bile from the liver injected into the intestines as food is passing as I understand it. You might try giving the bird some anti-canker meds and Baytril if you've got it but don't feed it very much for the moment.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Jules, can you smash the poop up and confirm that the light coloration goes completely through the solids of the poop?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, she mentioned hamgurger as well. I'm familiar w/birds having coiled
droppings yellowish in color, just the hamburger part was interesting.

Many viruses and bacterial infections colonize in the liver, and can cause 
symptoms associated w/liver problems as far as droppings are concerned.

fp


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh, yummy.  I think it won't be McD's for dinner tonight


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Oh, yummy.  I think it won't be McD's for dinner tonight



Maybe you have a local Primavera restaurant, a little more upscale  

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

The wormout gel is by Vetafarm. No, it isn't Wormout Plus, I know the "Plus" treats Coccidiosis.

I have Spartrix 10mg and I have Baytril. How should I give these meds? Same time? Start with Spartrix? 

What is your definition of "not feeding it very much at the moment"? Just trying to understand. (-:


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

> Jules, can you smash the poop up and confirm that the light coloration goes completely through the solids of the poop?


I'll check and get right back to you. I'm transferring the pigen to my office as we speak.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Personally, I'd feed small amounts and see how frequently the bird will tolerate
it. I'd start the bird on both medications ASAP. Give Spartrix for a full
5 days. You can worm the bird in between Baytril/Spartrix treatments, let's 
say mid-day if schedule permits. If this bird vomits, 2-3 drops of Pepto
Bismal three times a day, even four will help to stop the vomiting. Do you 
have a local source for medications. Could you get some Bactrim/Trim-Sulpha/Septra? That will treat Coccidiosis and anaerobic infections
as well.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Okay, he's set up on a heating pad in my office.

The pale yellow colour of the coiled poop (good description) is consistant through and through. However... the colour has now changed. Meaning there were copious amounts of coiled pale yellow dropping and now there are also copious amounts of coiled light brown droppings (think of a triple creamed coffee) as well.

I'm charging the battery on my Digital, then I'll get some shots of the droppings.

The directions for the Spartrix 10mg says that 1 single dose should be enough. Is what you're suggesting; the five day treatment how this should usually be given?

I'll give him one Spartrex, then feed him, then give him a Baytril.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, I know, but give him/her Spartrix for 5 days. Do you have a weight
on the bird? Also, what format is the Baytril in? Are these 7.5mg pills or...?
The coffee sounds really good, Jules, this thread is starting to peak my culinary
interests, lol... Could be that once you start medicating and feeding the bird
that you see some pronounced change in the droppings which would tend to
make me think bacterial/protozoal as opposed to viral.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Haven't weighed him yet. I have the Baytril from Jedds. The pill bottle label says Baytril 10%. Give 1/4 tablet for 7 - 10 days.

I've given him his first Spartrix, have put back his food and will give him 1/4 tab of Baytril in about an hour.

Hopefully by then my Digital will be charged & I can get some photos.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> Haven't weighed him yet. I have the Baytril from Jedds. The pill bottle label says Baytril 10%. Give 1/4 tablet for 7 - 10 days.
> 
> I've given him his first Spartrix, have put back his food and will give him 1/4 tab of Baytril in about an hour.
> 
> Hopefully by then my Digital will be charged & I can get some photos.


Jules, Baytril 10% is in liquid form as far as I know. Does this bottle say how
many mg's per pill?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Think it's been a while since Jedd's has carried Baytril.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

It doesn't say how many mg's. I thought I got it from Jedds (getting old *laugh* cannot remember for sure). Got it about 2 -3 years ago. Think it's too old to be beneficial?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it oughta' be fine as far as the age goes--it's just that the documentation leaves a bit to be desired. What do the pills look like and what size are they?

Pidgey


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I agree. About the size of an adult aspirin - round white with indent on one side to break in half.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are you absolutely certain that the pills are in the original bottle and that they
come from Jedd's?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Are the flat or convex on a side? Any numbers or letters on the pills at all or are they absolutely plain?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are these pills in a Jedd's repackaged type bottle or are they in the original
manufacturers' bottle?

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Sorry for delay.

Does this help?


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*Photo of droppings*

Can you see this?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that's kinda' what I thought about the poop--looks pretty bad. I see what you mean about "copious", too.

Those pills look like they oughta' say "Flagyl" on them. Can anybody here who has FishZole check out these pills and see if they look the same? They're the exact shape and nearly if not the exact same size of Flagyl. Flagyl always says its name on the pill, though.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Conundrum. In pill forms, drugs are virtually always packaged and presented as a specific milligram (or some other such unit like "International Units") amount so that dosing may be done properly. Solutions (liquids) are done as percentages in one form or another so that they also can be metered out correctly. To say that a pill is 10% of a drug kinda' begs the question of "10% of what?" 10% of 100 milligrams? 1000 milligrams? There's no answer here. That said, you can't use that drug unless somebody else comes on, ID's it and comes back with better information.

Pidgey


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

The package shown is how it came. I can guarantee that it came from a reputable pigeon place as I would never ever take a chance on generic street corner drugs for any living creature. 
I always found it strange that they didn't have the mg. I bought in bulk as one can really go through these fast when you're dealing with rehabs.

All can be quiet... with no new critters for the longest of time then all of a sudden... within a couple of weeks.. you've got 10 more cases. That's me... right now. All different ailments.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My guess is that this bird would be literally starving to death while packed to the gills with food. Seeing as how there's little or no bile, it's not absorbing much by way of nutrition at the moment. At least, it's probably having a difficult time with fats and proteins--not sure about how it's absorbing glucose. Better start a weight chart and get some serious heat on him el pronto. It'd be best to get him under a real live heat lamp at very close range. That'll shut down a lot of his energy consumption and maybe give him some more time.

Pidgey


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I could tell right away he likes the heating pad because I noticed he lay down and had stopped shivering.

If it is a liver problem... will the Baytril help? I'm trying to understand what you all having been saying is wrong with him.
I have viti-minerals, should I put some out for him?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'm going off of vague memories about certain liver problems causing light-colored stools in several species (us included). The liver does a buncha' things but it handles certain stuff in the blood as well as producing stuff to aid in digestion that's literally pumped into the intestines from a side-entry connection. When you see a starved bird that's putting out dark blobs of green paste that looks like artists' oil paint, those are mostly bile. If you had a bird that was in good shape that you could alternately starve, you could almost take that stuff and tube-feed it those blobs and it'd help a lot.

Anyhow, that stuff (the bile) helps break down fats kinda' like soap cuts greases and oils. It's necessary for the bird to be able to completely digest the food because there is a significant amount of fats in seeds.

I've no idea how this is going to play out, but this could be a sign of some kind of disease in the liver. The reason why we've suggested something like Metronidazole (Flagyl) and Baytril is because between them, they cover a few of the more common possibilities for diseases that may be affecting the liver. They'd have no effect on viruses, of course.

Pidgey


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thanks Pidgey. 

If the Baytril was going to help... how long would it take to see any type of improvement, in the poop or otherwise?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> The package shown is how it came. I can guarantee that it came from a reputable pigeon place as I would never ever take a chance on generic street corner drugs for any living creature.
> I always found it strange that they didn't have the mg. I bought in bulk as one can really go through these fast when you're dealing with rehabs.
> 
> All can be quiet... with no new critters for the longest of time then all of a sudden... within a couple of weeks.. you've got 10 more cases. That's me... right now. All different ailments.


Jules, you said earlier that you purchased this from Jedd's....are you meaning
Jedd's here in CA?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules, it still can be an infection that has colonized in the liver and if so,
and if bacterial, then yes the meds can help. If, and this does happen,
the bird found something that it liked and made a meal out of it that caused
the coloration, it's a transit time issue. If there is something organically wrong
w/this bird's liver, there are things you can do to help, but not necessarily
cure it.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Jules said:


> Thanks Pidgey.
> 
> If the Baytril was going to help... how long would it take to see any type of improvement, in the poop or otherwise?


Wish I could tell you something but I don't have any idea--never personally dealt with anything that looked like that. I'd be just as likely to suspect canker in the liver, too. The longer the bird hangs on, the better the prognosis, though.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I've seen some of the birds in my flocks pass droppings that look exactly like
this to tell you the truth. It seemed transitional though I sure can't say that 
this is what is going on w/this bird.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

You know how the memory works... cannot for the life of you remember then all of a sudden "eureka". Foys - not Jedds. It was just something you said feralpigeon about Jedds' in CA that triggered it for me.

I hope that link works. Although not currently available, it says they are *5mg*. Am I administering it incorrectly? Now I'm all worried.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/misc_meds/index.html#Baytril


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> You know how the memory works... cannot for the life of you remember then all of a sudden "eureka". Foys - not Jedds. It was just something you said feralpigeon about Jedds' in CA that triggered it for me.
> 
> I hope that link works. Although not currently available, it says they are *5mg*. Am I administering it incorrectly? Now I'm all worried.
> 
> http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/misc_meds/index.html#Baytril


How much have you given the bird so far, and the bird weighs how much?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure would be nice to go fishin' around the members to see if they recognize those pills.

The lack of flow of bile is called "cholestasis". It can have various causes but liver flukes and trematodes figure in there, too. We don't usually see those in pigeons but you never know--mighta' ate something he shouldn't have. Vet?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules, you can give a loading dose for the bird for the first 48 hours which means
double the dose to get it delivered into the bloodstream. Figure 15mgs per kilogram twice daily.

If the bird is 300 grams, multiply 300 times 15 and divide by 1000 (1000grams per kilogram) and you will have the dosage for your rescue. So, 4.5mg per kg
twice daily. Since the Beyer site itself gives a range that goes to 20mgs
per kilogram, I would just give the bird a whole pill (5mg) when not giving the initial loading dose, this is of course assuming that the bird is 300grams which
many ferals are in this range.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I've given him 1/4 pill. He weighs 320 g.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if you're sure that they're 5 milligram pills then you'll have to give more.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> I've given him 1/4 pill. He weighs 320 g.


Give him the rest of the pill. You could give him two pills twice daily for the loading dose at least for the first 24 hours.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

At 320 grams you'd be talking 4.8mg dosing at 15mg's. So given the site
recognizes 20mg's per kilogram, short of compounding the medication and
drawing up in a syringe, you are fine in my opinion to give the full 5mg pill
as his/her regular dose.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Okay let me repeat this back so I know I've understood correctly.
By the way - I don't think I took the photo showing the item #, but it is #577 which corresponds to the Foy's link - so I am feeling quite confident that it is indeed 5mg.

Based on his weight he should have 4.5 mg or one pill a day. As most antibiotics are prescribed - double up for the first day - so he should have 2 pills over the course of 24 hours.

Are we good so far?
Question: for the load up -should I give him a whole pill every twelve hours OR 1/2 pill every six hours?
Question 2: for the daily dosing should I give him one whole pill once a day or 1/2 pill every twelve hours.

Other questions: when to give pill: before feeding? (how long before -should I remove food)... or after feeding? (how long after & should I remove the food); how many days 7 - 10?

And when should the Spartrix be given?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> Okay let me repeat this back so I know I've understood correctly.
> By the way - I don't think I took the photo showing the item #, but it is #577 which corresponds to the Foy's link - so I am feeling quite confident that it is indeed 5mg.
> 
> Based on his weight he should have 4.5 mg or one pill a day. As most antibiotics are prescribed - double up for the first day - so he should have 2 pills over the course of 24 hours.
> ...


*This is more applicable for Spartrix but not so w/Baytril. If you pull the bird's food at night before s/he goes to bed then medicate in the a.m. following the instructions on witholding food, you just re-introduce the food how ever many hours after medicating.*

Hope that's as clear as mud.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Mud... yup.



> *Two pills twice every 12 hours*
> 
> Are we good so far?
> 
> see above


Two pills "twice" every 12 hours? Lost me.  

Okay... for the load up - he needs 4 pills over 24 hours *therefore*; two pills every 12 hours.

Can I then give him 2 pills once a day - both at the same time? And start his day with the Spartrix before feeding him?

Just trying to stir this mud (although chocolate sure sounds better than mud and it is in keeping with the culinary descriptions of this thread  )


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> Mud... yup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Mmmm, hot fudge (maybe caramel....more in keeping w/the color scheme so far) compounded w/chopped nuts to match the consistency of the 
ground hamburger...yikes!*


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

You know what... I think I've got it!  

But I feel bad that I have to wake pigdy up to give him the rest of the dose... he's lying down on the nice and warm and blankety fluffy heating pad... probably dreaming of sunflower seeds and goji berries and safflower... yummm. But... he'll start feeling better soon, so I'm sure he won't mind terribly.

Me... I think I am going to raid the leftover Halloween candy!  
All this talk about chocolate and caramel and nuts, it's finally given me a hankering.
I'm not going to dream it though... I'm going to eat it. But first I'll break the chocolate bar into pieces - because as you know - broken chocolate doesn't have any calories.  

Thanks. I'll keep you all posted.

~Jules~


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> You know what... I think I've got it!
> 
> ..........
> 
> ...


Jules, that's the part in my formulary that is fuzzy and I can't quite make
out so I've been leaving it whole....I had no idea keeping trim while under
the influence of chocolate could be so simple  Gonna have to give
that a whirl


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*He didn't make it*

I am upset - he didn't make it.

The latter part of yesterday his poops were returning to regular poops - no pasta in sight. Black (or dark green with white) and he wasn't pooping non stop. I was SO THRILLED!!
Honestly, I thought we'd turned the corner. I gave him a Baytril late last night then after a couple of hours removed the food.
He was perky throughout this whole ordeal.

I got up this morning - prepared his food, new bedding, Spartrix, etc and when I uncovered his cage - he... well it seems he went somtime over the night.

How am I going to tell his mate? I caught her a few days ago with initial signs of PMS (unable to pick up seeds). There's a lot of that going around right now. That was the reason I had moved this guy into the garage - so he could see and be somewhat closer to his mate).

I am sad he didn't make it, but I have learned a lot with this one's illness and how to properly determine amount to medicate. I just wish I knew more, but Thank God for you guys. It was probably the correct treatment - perhaps not soon enough.

Thank you for all of your assistance.

~Julianne~


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hate to hear that but I was pretty afraid that was going to happen when I read your description, even more so when I saw the picture.

That's "PMV", by the way, and not "PMS"--that's quite a different affliction altogether.

Pidgey


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA* Tears are just rolling down my cheeks... I cannot believe I put PMS. *HAHAHAHA*

(normally I would edit the post... but I think that tad of levity might not be a bad thing  )

Okay... I'm trying to stop laughing now. 

Pidgey... could you tell me more? You said you were afraid that was going to happen from both my description and the photo. I am trying to learn.
Is it because his liver was too infected? What about the fact that his poops were returning to normal? Was there more I could have done, or not done?
Do you think it was canker in his liver? Are there signs I should look for (I have a flock of ferals - too large right now - and expecting the onslaught of complaints from my neighbours). Do you think any of the other ferals could be infected with the same thing? Is it contagious to other pigeons, birds, mammals? 

Sorry... I know I have so many questions.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's not the kind of thing we normally see, you understand. There are so many ways (as in, "quite a few") that they can get hurt or sick (and even badly, at that) and with intervention they'll live. But anything approaching real live hepatitis in any animal is a very, very serious thing, no matter what causes it (viral, bacterial, protozoal, cancer, certain parasites... ). If you read the medical books, there are a number of different types of diseases that a liver can get and, as you can imagine, some aren't so bad and some are far and away worse. Some will occur with a period of "latency", which means that the patient may appear to get better before getting worse.

For my part, it was just a feeling because I hadn't seen this before and the little stuff that I could find about it mostly discussed things from a necropsy point of view. If the liver goes bad funky, it'll take some very important chemical balancing in the blood with it and that can get terminal real quick. I do not know for a fact that that was the problem and if it were my bird, I would pack it up for a necropsy at my local vet.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry the little guy didn't make it.

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm sorry he didn't survive, Jules. Bless you for trying to save him.


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