# Behaving Drunk!



## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hey Zuse has been through a lot since I have found him. Each time I think he is almost 100% recovered, something else manifests. He is now ruffled up and mostly staying in one corner. I have not seen as much poop the past few days. He is drinking and eating. When I went to put fresh paper and litter down this morning, I noticed he seemed wobbily. He always trys to get away from me and this morning he wobbled away like he was drunk. He actually fell forward! His eyes are clear, he has no discharge, he looks better but this is obviously not good. It is Sunday, and my vet will not be reachable. Please send your expert opionions asap.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Cricket said:


> Hey Zuse has been through a lot since I have found him. Each time I think he is almost 100% recovered, something else manifests. He is now ruffled up and mostly staying in one corner. I have not seen as much poop the past few days.
> 
> *He is drinking* and eating. When I went to put fresh paper and litter down this morning, I noticed he seemed wobbily. *He always trys to get away from me and this morning he wobbled away like he was drunk. He actually fell forward!*


Hello Cricket,
Are you certain Hey Zuse is drinking enough water? Becoming 'wobbily' & 'falling face forward' are two signs of dehydration. He may need a bit of an electrolyte boost. 
Just a suggestion, you might want to replace plain water with a rehydrating solution.

_*'To a cup of room temperature water add a pinch each of salt & sugar*.'_

Put as much of this solution in his regular drinking dish as you would the plain water.

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Snow White (Jul 27, 2005)

*Poor Zuse*

Hi Cricket, he sure sounds like he's sick and maybe disorientated (acting drunk). I don't know his circumstances when you found him, but hang on, someone will be along soon. Hope he feels better soon. Do you maybe have an emergency contact through your vet (sometimes they leave them on their voicemail)?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Cricket,

In addition to Cindy's good advice about rehydrating, perhaps some additional heat for Hey Zues would also be helpful....Here is "Saving the Life of a Pigeon/Dove" courtesy of Cindy...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

Good luck with Hey Zues...hope he will be doing better soon.

Linda


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

He is still in a hospital cage with a heating pad under half of it. That is the corner he prefers. As far as drinking, I change his water every am and pm and each time I do, some is missing and it is dirty (ish) So I am pretty comfortable saying he is drinking. However, I have not seen him do so lately. I will fill a syringe with the water boost mix and make sure some gets in him. I am starting to get discouraged. He is not pooping as much, so maybe this dehydration theory is correct. It is always hard to tell how much he has eaten, he is a picky eater and scatters the seed mix about. I can't believe how long this sick bird has been under special treatment. Is this normal? I mean, for a found sick bird? Has anyone else ever gone through so many ailments one after another? Will he ever get better? Maybe he misses where he came from? A mate perhaps? I feel lousy for him. I have had him for at least 12 or 13 weeks now. Ugh. More later.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

JMO, but you've gotten some good advice on the re-hydrating solution, I've experienced that same problem w/rescues (falling forward even after being here for a while) and this will truly help. Another suggestion that I'd like to put out there is that you get a heating pad and set on low w/a towel over it on bottom of cage. Looks like your located in CT/New England and things should be getting a bit nippy up there. 

Also, take a look at where cage/carrier is located. Is it drafty there? You may want to start covering at night w/a blanket or the like. I'm in California, but we are starting to have nippy nights and I'm pulling out the heating pads for cats and birds and covering bird cages/carriers @ night.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cricket,

I'm sorry the bird isn't feeling well. It is sometimes difficult to get them over the hump when different health issues keep coming along.

Once he has been thru the hydration period, you may need to hand feed. He should eat about a tablespoon of seed with each meal, 2 times per day.

Have you given him the human pro biotics? That also helps build up the immune system by allowing healthy gut bacteria to thrive, as well as help generate an appetite.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

Guess you've got the heating pad....is it one that stays on continuously or is it the kind that automatically shuts off on its own after being on for a limited time--I really can't stand those, got one by mistake before I realized that it was a "new feature". 

Have you checked inside the mouth lately??
Also, is there any odor to the poops that you notice? Try not to bump your nose in it when you check it out .

What have you treated for so far?

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Thanks fp, This guy is inside my house now for many weeks. He is set up in my sunroom and has the heating pad under half the cage. I also cover the cage with a large towel. I only uncover half the cage when it is daylight so he can watch the wild birds outside on the feeder. He loves to watch them. He also watches us build the Pigeon Loft! I swear he is ordering us around. Anyway, he is warm and not in any such drafts. I took him inside when he fell ill way back. I want to get him back to 100% and he will not be going outside until he is 100% and for a few weeks after that. Knowing me, he will probably winter inside even if the loft is ready just to make sure... My husband does not know this so don't tell him! Thanks for the advice.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

He was first attacked by mites! Then an eye infection. Then he was tested and it was found that he had an extreme case of coccidia and capallaria. Then his eyes cleared up and got bad again. Now he is dehydrated! He has been treated with Batrum, I think, and a shot in the muscle two times over a period of 10 days for the capallaria. I use Colloidal Silver drops in the eyes and one drop in his water. I have hand feeding formula, but have not had to use it yet. I had been mixing the human probiotics in his water a few weeks ago when we were treating the coccidia. I will start that up again, but for how long should I do this? The heating pad is old school. It is on continuously. I did not know about that new feature, so I guess I am lucky. I am about to give him his water by mouth so when I do, I will check inside there to see if anything appears different. I will write again once I have accomplished this.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

Think I'd probably scoop some fresh poop and drop it off @ the vets for fecal float. Even tho you've treated for coccidiosis, it could be that they didn't get knocked down enuf and the pij needs to be treated again. Although, Treesa uses Colloidal Silver for coccidiosis, so you could dose for that w/the silver.

One tbls. of AppleCidarVinegar to a gallon of water 2-3 times a week in water is a great way to help replenish good gut flora as it creates an acidic environment that good bacteria thrives in.

Also, have you treated for worms?? Have you ever treated for air sac mites??

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

All appears good inside his mouth. He drank the syringe water without a fight. I gave him about 3 cc worth. When I put him back in the cage, he flopped around to his corner. He doesn't have his feet under him at all. Maybe the food and water are better off closer to him? I have moved it all almost under his nose. He also pooped while I was right there and it looks like pure liquid. That is why I am not seeing so much poop. It is not normal poop. It is liquid. I have newspaper down with that recycled paper litter scattered around. It must be soaking it up so I was not aware of how wet this poop is. Is that a sign of dehydration?


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I will bring more poop if I can get some? What are air sac mites?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Cricket,
If you haven't already done so, please click on the link Lin Hansen provided, paying particular attention to the *'degrees of dehydration' *section. This describes the different stages of dehydration, which may be helpful in determining if this little one might have become dehydrated among other possible problems.

Also have you checked his keel (breast) bone for 'sharpness'. It should have some muscle around it. 

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

When I get a feral, I treat for worms, mites, coccidiosis and canker if I believe them to have it. This on general principle. Sometimes a bird can be treated for coccidiosis only to have the count go back up again and the need to treat again. This is why I suggested another fecal float to be sure....

Over time as their situation stablilzes, their food and water source a constant,
their health also becomes more consistently stable.

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I will most definately have the vet do another fecal as soon as I can gather some substance. In the meantime, I am giving him 6cc's of boosted water every hour and he does not fight me at all. He drinks it willingly. I have not noticed any improvement yet. How will I catch liquid poop for a fecal?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket,


I think you should get some easily digested food into him.

A white hand towell is a good way to cover the heating pad and cage bottom, letting you see pretty well how many and what kind-color the poops are.

If he has not hardly made any poops lately, he might just be starving and so weak now he is flopping over.

If you have some good formula-powder to mix up, maybe do it now, and get some nutrients into him immediately. Use the ACV-Water to mix his chow, and make it soupy...not pudding-like.

If he brightens up, try some 'Seed-Pops' later with smaller whole Seeds, such as the White Safflower. And do the formula feeding again also, small 5 or 8 cc meals, a few hours apart.

Do get the Vet to do the fecal float soon as you can tomorrow, too.

If he was not feeling well, and lost his appetite...well, they can starve that way, even if scattering Seeds while looking for something appealing, and not eating anything for all the scattering.

I'd think do the ACV-Water for his drinking Water for the next week, as previous posts mentioned implimenting for him...this will be a general good thing for whatever is going on with him...

For now though, unless I have misunderstood, I think you better get some chow into him pronto...!

...does he have a 'sharp' Keel?


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Cricket,
> When I get a feral, I treat for worms, mites, coccidiosis and canker if I believe them to have it. This on general principle. Sometimes a bird can be treated for coccidiosis only to have the count go back up again and the need to treat again. This is why I suggested another fecal float to be sure....
> Over time as their situation stablilzes, their food and water source a constant,
> their health also becomes more consistently stable.
> ...


So true...so true...cocci has a way of coming back under the stress of another health issue, but eventually it will not appear again once all health crisis are resolved, stress goes down and the immune system is in full gear.

Good post, fp!


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

OK, we are done for the night. I went to the store and bought him unflavored pedialyte. I gave him 6 cc's. Then I checked the site and Phil suggested food immediately. I have hesitated for so long on the hand feed formula, don't know why, since all went very well. I gave him 5 cc's of the feed formula mixed with pedialyte. I hope this is ok. Not too much pedialyte? I also put a white hand towel under him for the night. He ate well, drank well and is comfortable for the time being. I will hopefully collect a fecal sample tomorrow to bring to the vet. I plan on hand feeding him again in the am. Luckily Monday is my day off. Just let me know if the Pedialyte is alright to mix with the formula. I am not sure what ACV water is... Oh yeah, his keel is not as sharp as it was a few weeks ago. It is still prominent though. He weighed .8 oz. last monday. He was .7 about 2 weeks before that. I don't know what he is now. I may end up bringing him in to the vet depending on what he thinks when I speak with him tomorrow. I will get a proper weight then. Thanks to each of you for your support and advice. Hopefully he will survive this as well as he has survived the past issues. Please let me know about the Pedialyte mixed with the hand formula soon as I plan on doing that again in the am unless I have been advised differently. What would I do without you people?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have no experience with 'Pedalite'...but I am sure it is fine.

Sorry, I thought the "ACV" was explained earlier in this thread - 

It is one Tablespoon of raw, Apple Cider Vinegar added to a gallon of good ( non 'tap' ) Water, and you then use this 'Water' for their drinking and formula mixing...

Regular Apple Cider Vinegar will do also.

Are you sure your Bird's weight is "point-eight" of an Ounce?

That would be very, VERY 'Light'...

Did you mean 8 Ounces maybe? That would be about right for a lightish adult or late juvenile Pigeon...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

You are right Phil, I meant 8 oz. Oops. I was never good at math. Anyhow, the Apple Cider Vinegar mix had been mentioned. I just didn't get it. The abbreviation, I mean. Thanks. I do have Apple Cider Vinegar. Not raw. Anyhow, Hey Zeus had much more to say about hand feeding this am. He was not liking it and fought a lot harder. We made a mess, but I got some in him too. He had solid poops on the towel. Very green and sticky looking. I scooped it and will be dropping off at the vets later. We'll see?


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

No news on the poop thus far. The vet wants me to bring Hey Zues in with me tomorrow, so that is good. In the meantime, I am still watering and feeding him by hand. He is still wobbly, but he is stronger!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

Well, if I had to pick between watery and clear or green and sticky.....I'd probably take green and sticky. The pedialyte is an emergency substitute for the International Rehydrating Solution:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11265&highlight=pedialyte

I'm sure it's fine for now until you little by little get some food into him. You may get some wing wacks out of it, but I'm sure in time he'll appreciate feeling better and realize your to blame  .

The ACV & water solution is a good way to keep an acidic environment which good gut bacteria, ie, good flora, prefer. This also helps to keep at bay a few different problems that are common for pigeons whether in captivity or in the wild. The raw vinegar has the "mother" in it, and so is considered the most beneficial. However, pasteurized is fine until you can get to a health food store. Tests have shown that it's the acidic environment that was essential.
I use Bragg's along w/many others on the forum, I'm not sure what's available in your area.

If you are planning on keeping this pij, it might be good to have some things on hand for common ailments. Here's a thread from the resource section
that lists the Pigeon Suppy Houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

You do need to rotate meds, so having more than one type of med for a given problem on hand is best. Also, it's best to rely on natural methods in general, just as you might choose for yourself to maintain good health. The search mode in the toolbar is a great resource here and you can find alot of info on topics, also in the resource section, you'll find many "stickies" about caring for pidgeons. This is not to discourage you from posting questions, just to give you some other food for thought.

I hope your visit goes well with the vet tomorrow, and please keep us posted.

Best,

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Great information there. I will go to the threads. I will also stop at the health food store to pick up raw apple cider vinegar. I am finding that I do have quite a collection of meds started. I am learning a lot with this experience. I will post tomorrow once the vet does his thing... Wish us luck.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket, 

If the 'green' is bright green, so far as I know it signals that the Bird is starveing.

From other details in your previous posts, I think you best take that possibility seriously!

Pop whole Seeds into his Beak...if you can make some easily digested 'formula', you will still need a safe way to get it into him, and I do not know what experience you may have with that kind of proceedure.

Has his Crop been filled with any gas or air?

Anyway, can you say what you have been feeding him, and how you have been doing it?

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Wow Phil. You're good. I must say I agree with you here. His poop is a vibrant green. The vet was dumbfounded so he took blood to send out. He did not think he was dehydrated because his skin wasn't sticking and his eyes are bright and alert. I think that is because I have been giving him pedialyte by mouth and hand feeding him since Sunday. His weight is horrifying! He only weighs .4! Last week he was .8! He has lost half his body weight! I am using Pretty Bird Hand Feed Formula. I am mixing it with the Pedialyte and making is soupy. I am using a large feeding syringe and feeding him 5cc twice a day. Today I will do it 3 times. I am doing this slowly, and by opening his beak up a squirting a beakful at a time until he swallows it down. It has been messy, but I am getting it in there. I have the soft tubes, but have not built up the confidence to tube feed. I don't know if it is necessary considering he is eating up what I have been putting in his mouth. When you say pop whole seeds into his beak, what do you exactly mean? Will he just swallow them? I will try it next feeding. He is responding to this routine, but is not ok. He is a little less wobbily than yesterday, but the vet thinks he may have something neurological. May have... he wants to wait for the blood work to come back and told me to keep doing what I am doing. He does not know pigeons well. Birds of other kinds yes, but pigeons not so well. He was going to research if pigeons get some strain of chlamydia for birds?? I don't know what brought him there. I am waiting for the technicians to call me any minute with the fecal float results. Yesterday I had dropped some off and somehow they didn't run it. They used todays poop instead. Ugh. But considering his weight, I think he was dehydrated and starving. I don't know how to check his crop for gas or air. He looks normal in that area, but I am unsure how to check. So, I have been hand feeding him since I think Sunday pm? but putting liquids in since Sunday morning. 5cc 2xday food and 3-6cc pedialyte every two to four hours on average. Except when I sleep.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

The tech called and he does have coccidia again or still, AND he still has the Capallaria AND something different that the tech says the vet must check before saying for sure, but something called cecal worm??? Help!


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

C'mon gang! Don't abandon me here! Where'd ya all go? I went ahead and gave him small seeds in his mouth. About 1 teaspoons worth. I also gave him his hand feed formula. Tomorrow is a new day.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I am new to pidgys myself, but what I have learned is to go by your instincts, but be carefull when you do! Always do a little less than what feels right. I know I am not to good at this! When my baby was hungry I fed the formula, when that was not satisfying him, as he kept peeping, then I added a few small seeds, soaked in warm water to soften! As he grows he lets me know by his peeping when he needs more, but I am always carefull to not over do it at first! Good Luck! As I still need it myself!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket, 

Don't worry about being abandoned, sometimes it's hard to keep up w/all the suggestions, lol.

He'll give you meds I'm sure for whatever his findings are, so just be patient on that one. I've never heard of cecal worm but here's what I find when I google:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/PS012

The thing with worms as I understand it is treating for them in a way to interupt cycle although there may be others with better info to give you on this one. Sounds like the doctor may not know pigeons but also takes the time to do his/her homework, so see what they have to say.

Still think, along w/the meds, that stabilizing the pijies diet will be pretty important. Building up its resistance.

Also, are you aware of the windpipe hole when feeding?? I was a little worried about that. If you syringe, you need to tip head back and make sure that the syringe is going into the crop. If you haven't been shown it's hard to explain in email format, so maybe a dropper is better. Seeds or soaked and drained puppy chow can be placed to the rear of tongue and allow the bird to do the swallowing. That might be your best bet.

Hope the vet gets back in touch soon.

Best,

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

..depending on how long the snout of the Syringe is, the most one might hope for is that the end of it at least goes into the throat, past the central wind-pipe aperature, and for the Syringe Tip ( a SOFT one I hope!) goes into his throa proper...to reach the Crop a Catheter or tube of some kind would have to be used which is long enough...but I do not know of course what sort of syringe Cricket has...


Anyway, 4 Ounces is dangerously "light"...

I got lost in reading how much how often you are feeding them Cricket, but if it had been 5 cc of 'soup' twice-a-day, if that was the totasl volume of the mixed formula, was maybe one fourth to one sixth of what the Bird should have been getting a-day...presuming his Crop and digestive functions are allright and the Crop is emptying as it should.

If you are useing a powder to make the formula, make VERY sure you mix it thoroughly so no denser areas or lumps or globs are present...these can stick to the Bird's Crop inside and hurt them.

Also, the formula should be "wrist-temperature" and not cooler or hotter. And one must NOT use a microwave to warm the formula when making it. Use a cup in a pan of hot Water to warm the formula and stirr it a whole lot while warming it to make sure it is warmed evenly through out.

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!! That you do that in that way. Make new formula each day, and, between meals, keep it coveres in saran wrap or the likes in the 'fridge. Then, warm is as described above...generally, one makes this to be about like a Milkshake in consistancy.

Seed-Pop - you gently open their Beak (usually wrapping the Bird lightly in a small towell, and in such a way as not to have it press against their Crop - whereupon I usually set the upright Bird so wrapped so it's tail area and that part of the towell get lightly held between my thighs or in frm my knees as I sit, and the same position set-up if I am to tube-feed)...and...

....for 'Seed-Pop' one gently opens their Beak in a strictly 'up' ( and not any sideways strain) way, and pushes a Seed into their throat with a finger tip...one sets a Seed into their mouth and then pushes it far enough back for them to swallow. Hence, larger ( within reason! ) Seeds are handiest, such as whole dried Peas, plain 'Pop Corn', or small, out of the shell, raw, nothing added to them, Peanuts.

How old is this Bird? will you refresh my memory?

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Cricket said:


> ...I went ahead and gave him small seeds in his mouth. About 1 teaspoons worth. I also gave him his hand feed formula...


You are really doing a wonderful job caring for this bird. Just a suggestion - since he is showing signs of neurological problems (coordination issues), you might want to stay with small seeds and formula for a while. The larger seeds need coordinated movement of the crop to move them along. The smaller stuff seems to pass much more easily, especially for a compromised bird.

If you can find one of the small pelleted feeds, such as Harrisons Fine, that would dissolve nicely in his system, but might be easier for you to feed by hand and less messy than the liquid.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terri B,

Yes, good points...

They can get 'wobbley' indeed though with mere, or sheer privation.I have seen that many times, where they can just tip over forwards or stumble and hardly stand.

A Bird, if an Adult Pigeon, weighing only 4 Ounces, would likely qualify as just about as starved as they could be and not be dead, I think...

I have had extrememly emaciated 'wobblers' weighing a lot more than that.

These 'worm' and parasite issues are likely robbing the poor thing of what small amounts of nutrition his system otherwise has been processing...

So, might be nurological involvements, and then again, might just be sheer depletion.

But yes, small Seeds might be best, or one could use them seperately, in addition of course to some nice formula...

All my best hopes and wishes Cricket! To you both!

Hope the Vet can get the 'worm-parasit' issue medicated nicely so the Bird can start gaining weight again and get past this phase of their ailments.

Keep them warm...of course, as I think you have been...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> ..depending on how long the snout of the Syringe is, the most one might hope for is that the end of it at least goes into the throat, past the central wind-pipe aperature, and for the Syringe Tip ( a SOFT one I hope!) goes into his throa proper...to reach the Crop a Catheter or tube of some kind would have to be used which is long enough...but I do not know of course what sort of syringe Cricket has...
> 
> 
> Hi Phil,
> ...


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hello Expert Pigeon Caretakers! Good to hear from all of you. I have increased the hand feeding to 3 times per day, that is 15 cc's and now I have added the seed popping. I give him only the small seeds since I tried a popcorn kernal and he struggled with it so I took it out of his mouth. I give him about 15 to 20 small seeds each feeding and I give him 6 cc's of pedialyte as we go, to wash it all down. I did not put the tip of the syringe back far in his throat or anywhere near the crop. I am taking this slow and therefore squeezing such small amounts into his beak and letting him do the swallowing. It takes me about 20 minutes each session. Now I am wondering if I should be feeding him even more? He is definatley starving, just his weight alone and the fact that he is not eating or drinking on his own and all the parasite issues. He is stronger and not as wobbily though. I have noticed that there is no fresh poop on the white towel. He has not pooped all day! I don't feel anything in the crop area, so I think it is empty. I don't know how old this guy is. He appears to be an adult. Above his nostrils is whitish. Well, actually it is the color of the hand feed formula which is yellowish. It is a powder and I am mixing it with room temp. pedialyte. I mix a little each feeding rather than storing it. It is easy enough to mix up and I do thoroughly mix it so it is all consistent. So how many times should I give him the hand feed formula, seeds and pedialyte per day????


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I am no expert here for sure! Does he act hungry? Is he wanting food? I have learned birds are quite smart! They will let you know what they need! So I always give mine less than what he thinks he wants but more often, as I am afraid of over or under feeding! I am lucky now as Squidget can now drink on his own, so I let him have what he wants!
I am sure someone with more knowledge on this will be on soon to answer you better!
I will be praying all turns out well for your little friend!
Denise


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

http://members.aol.com/duiven/medical/feedbaby.htm is a site I found that has a pretty good and detailed instruction on tube feeding. It has a clear diagram and some good advice. I think I will attempt this tomorrow when my husband gets home from work. In the meantime, I will continue what I am currently doing... and feed more? and warm up the formula with a warm cup of water to set my mix bowl in. I also plan to bring Hey Zues to work with me if I should be feeding him 6 to 8 times per day... my work environment can be noisey with barking dogs, so I am a little unsure about the stress I may cause by bringing him. What to do?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

There are some real experts around here, licensed rehabbers and medical folks.
Alot of us are on a learning curve like yourself, trying to do our best to help out.
I would make sure that easily digestable food that the pij likes and some water is always available in addition to the feedings. The main concern is that the bird doesn't aspirate liquids through wrong hole into air sacs/lungs. When you look inside the mouth ( which should be pink ), you should see a hole directly behind the rear portion of tongue. That would be the wrong hole! You want to be all the way in the back. Tipping the head back by holding the beak up in the air helps w/this. You should be able to feel the tube w/other hand in front area of crop right underneath neck if you are in the right place, in fact I can usually see the syringe. You don't want to go all the way to the bottom of the crop.

Also, you should not microwave food, we had a member who had horrible problems created for a pij who'd had microwaved food at a pet/vet place. A little warm is fine.

I think if you left something out for him during day @ home and fed before you went to work, late afternooon, and before you went to bed at night, that would really give him a jump start. Think you could switch over to something other than the pedialite now, think it's discontinued w/food, but others may have more info on that. You might want to start him in w/the ACV in water and syringe or eye drop or just leave out for him. 

What were the rest of the results from the doctor? Did he give you any meds?? If so, what were they, and what for??

Others should be along with some more insights/suggestions for you.

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I don't think it will need to be fed that often. Myself I am not brave enough to do tube feeding. Does he try to drink? If he does I would mix the formula thin and a few small seeds in a baby nipple, guide his beak in and then if he eats and licks, let him have what he wants! May take lots of refilling that nipple! The reason I say thin formula is for the pooping issue. I could be wrong as I am new here. Someone should be on soon to help you better.
Good Luck!


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I always have his water bowl in his cage along with food and grit, so if he wanted to he could eat. Unfortunately, he was too unstable on his own feet to cross the cage to the dishes. That is how I think he got so bad. I did not know he was so wobbily right away. As for the vet, Wed.s are his day off and the blood work did not come back today. It should be there by tomorrow morning. I don't know if the Vet will want to try something different from the last round or go again with the Batrum and Levi... something in the muscle shot. I do know that the med for the Coccidia can't be mixed with other meds. Sooo, tomorrow I will have an additional step to my routine with whatever med he prescribes. I do have the ACV water already mixed and in his dish. Should I use that to mix with the formula??? And yes, Denise, I am mixing this stuff pretty soupy and thin. I don't think my guy wants to eat or drink, unfortunately. He does however, take what I put into his mouth. I am aware of the hole to his lungs. I have seen it all quite clearly. Sooo, I think I can do this tube feeding. I am pretty brave and comfortable holding him at this point. I have a feeding syringe and heat shrink tubing that fits perfectly over the syringe tip. I also have vaseline to lubricate the tube some. If I should just keep doing what I am already doing then I will, but if the tube feeding seems appropriate considering his state, then I will do it. I love this site. Thanks all. Keep it coming.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Another feeding thought, you can make the formula very thick and roll into little balls and hand feed those as you would seed or kibble to back of tongue.

I don't know about vaseline internally, you could smooth edges w/fine sandpaper if need be and put some olive oil on tip or even water for lube if you go that route. Before using a syringe, I used to use an eye dropper and get to back of throat w/that. I think I'd be trying to pump his system w/vitamins and probiotics, you can use human probiotics in capsule form and moisten to help side down. Keep the acv in water bowl to help ensure that no bad stuff is growing there to add to problems & change every day. As long as he maintains and doesn't lose more, he'll eventually stabilize and start to put on weight, at least that would be my hope. You could mix that or if you had vitamins to add to water/formula mix, or probiotics, you could mix that in. Really, any of the health food alternatives that are water soluable that you believe would help can be mixed appropriately into water solution and then used when mixing formula.

Didn't you mention that you had Colloidal Silver?? Treesa Gray uses that for coccidiosis. Any of the natural things you could use w/the medicine unless
specifically not to be used w/calcium. Why not ask your vet if you should pull grit/calcium while treating w/med?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dnrslucky1 said:


> I don't think it will need to be fed that often. Myself I am not brave enough to do tube feeding. Does he try to drink? If he does I would mix the formula thin and a few small seeds in a baby nipple, guide his beak in and then if he eats and licks, let him have what he wants! May take lots of refilling that nipple! The reason I say thin formula is for the pooping issue. I could be wrong as I am new here. Someone should be on soon to help you better.
> Good Luck!


Hi dnrslucky1, Cricket,


The 'nipple' feeding I tend to recommend and employ for my Babys variously, is wonderful for Babys or youngsters but will not work for older Pigeons/Doves. It may not work for a younger Bird even who is ill and whose appetite is messed up.

It can work sometimes for young adult Pigeons or the late adolescent, even though they had not been fed by their parents for some time in that manner.

Birds who are ill will sometimes lose their appetite, and in my experience I am grateful to have learned to to feed them via Syringe with some kind of formula, directly into their Crop. 

Some such Birds may acquiesce to 'Seed-Pops', and of course larger Seeds are the most effecient.


Now, as for feeding directly into the Crop - 

One of the problems we hear about is perforations OF the Crop, done unwittingly of course, by the device being inserted...and or by the kind of device, tube, lavage needle, or what that is being used.

Even a fairly soft normal type Catheter can be very dangerous if it hits the bottom or a fold in the Crop, and the operative is pushing on it trying to get it 'in' farther, and probably, in some illnesses, or in extensive emaciation, the Crop itself is possibly more fragile than usual.

If one is going to feed them via some kind of soft tube attatched to a Syringe, I would suggest one be very careful about judgeing safely, the depth to which it is to be inserted, and if at all possible, to obtain the softest kind of Silicone ( clear soft ) Catheter to modify and use for this.

The 'red' kind of Catheter are pretty stiff, and in my imagining, could poke through or tear or injure if pressed against a fold in the side of a frail Crop, while the operative is trying to insert it to what they feel is the right depth.

Whatever kind you do use, you should be able to feel how it is slideing in, and to make sure you do not push it in any harder than say you would wish someone to push it against your eyeball or something.

The size also should be comfortable for the Bird, and while of course they can swallow 'Olives' for that matter, it is a different mater when we are trying to push or slide something down their throat than when they are swallowing on their own.

I use a No. 6 French System (Fg) size, for medium sized Birds such as an advanced Squab or adult Pigeon ( and smaller ones for smaller Birds) and it will pass the formula just fine as long as the formula is mixed well, and of course it should be.

Lube the Catheter with a light film of Olive Oil so it slides in easier...rather than Vasolene.

Gently turn or wiggle it also as slideing it in...and be very sensitive to how it is slideing in, and if you feel resistance, pull it out and begin anew. It should slide in with NO perceptible resistance if you have things lined up right.

There are many kinds of Catheters...as well as various materials they are made of.

The 'Plain' type of Catheter, having a tapered end that may be cut short to leave it's lowest part, will fit well on a medium or large Catheter-Type ( not Luer Loc) Syringe, or will fit well on an irrigation type Syringe where one may also cut off some of the un-needed length of that syringe's plastic snout...

The 'Plain Type' Catheter will be found to be the most convenient for these uses. These Catheters are also of course are cut off keeping their 'funnel' end, to be a convenient length, since normally they are fairly long, and one needs only some four or five inches for this use.

Here is a link to some Catheter info, but I elected this link just noe, for it's chart of sizes - 

http://www.norfolkaccess.com/Catheters.html



Small meals a couple hours apart, of easily digested nutritious food, would make the best sense
for an emaciated or seriously ill Bird, while a more robust and heavy Bird needing this kind of feeding would oblige larger meals less frequently.

By small meals, for an adult Pigeon, I mean something on the order of 'Milkshake' thick formula, 10 cc to a meal, and a meal every three hours, so that over a long day, that is like five or six meals.

BUT!!!!

Make sure the Crop IS emptying...and do not add to it if it is not. Maybe the Bird will not handle that much/that often. Birds, ill or emaciated Birds, will vary in how much they can digest and how fast.

I think the use of the ACV Water ( 1 Tablespoon of it to the Gallon of Water) to mix the formula would be a good idea to discourage opportunistic bacteria and yeats from taking advantage of the Crop and the Bird's weakened immune system.

The Pedalite, while maybe useful for an initial hydration, I believe will be of no more use now, and I would use the ACV Water and skip the Pedalite from here on.

Get some good Bird Vitamines-Minerals, such as 'Nekton-T' and add a pinch of it, ( find it on line ) and also get some Chlorella powder ( any health food store) and add a half teaspoon full or so of it to a meal. It is vivid green color and will make their food green. Also some Pro-Biotics and add a pinch of that to each meal.

Probably the "Hagens" Breeding Mash would be my choice ( and is, Lol, I sound like our friend NumberNine!) and you can get it easily on line if no one locally caries it or I can send you some of mine in the mail pronto if you wanted to use it.

Then hope you start seeing poops..!

Lastly, when I 'Tube-Feed' if say 10 cc worth of formula, I make sure the syringe moves smoothly when filling it by drawing the formula in, and then I fit the modified Catheter on to the syringe...

But regardless, make sure you will not have any lumps of resistance in how the formula is dispensed out of the syringe, you do not want to have everything going well then be having to push hard trying to get the syringe to work, then have it suddenly squirt out too fast in a giant 'Quish!'...

And, likely, to put that amount into a Crop, would take my about 10 seconds worth of time for emptying the 10 cc amount out of the syringe into their Crop...do it smooth and steady, not too fast, and no need to be slower than say 10 seconds for that amount.

Longer than that will also start to be uncomfortable for the Bird, where, in my experience, the 10 second or so time is handled by them very well. IN fact if I am doing 20 cc amount, I likely do it in about ten seconds also.

Keep their head "up" and Beak mostly up when slideing the Catheter down in there and after that let their head be however they want it, but do kind of stead them a little if they start to thrash...or to make sure they do not.

Usually, I do the insert of the Catheter holding their Head where it meets their neck between the little finger tip side and the ring finger tip side of my left hand...while reaching around their head with my index finger and thumb of that same hand, to hold the lower beak, and with my right hand, I open their top Beak, and at the same time, I gently pull their head up, and also so it points up, then I insert the catheter, then let their head go but maybe with just some slight steadying of it keeping my left hand's fingers gently in place...

I gently wrap the Bird in a small Towell, and have them in a vertical pose, where I set their Tail section ( which has Towell around it of course) between my thighs...and i like to have a good light to SEE into their throat also, when I do this.

This method has worked very well for me...and for the Birds of course!


Sorry this got long!

Just wanting to try and give some overview.


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> pdpbison said:
> 
> 
> > ..depending on how long the snout of the Syringe is, the most one might hope for is that the end of it at least goes into the throat, past the central wind-pipe aperature, and for the Syringe Tip ( a SOFT one I hope!) goes into his throa proper...to reach the Crop a Catheter or tube of some kind would have to be used which is long enough...but I do not know of course what sort of syringe Cricket has...
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Heat Shrink' tubeing on the end of a Syringe will probably be much to dangerous...and can cut them or tear something...that kind of tubeing is thin and rather sharp-rigid...

See if you can get something softer, your Vet will have 6 Fg Catheters, or 7 Fg even, they cost like 80 cents, and see if you can get a "Plain" kind and one made of the SILOCONE if at all possible, and modify/improvise one short length of it on the funnel-end...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> feralpigeon said:
> 
> 
> > Hi fp,
> ...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Unless the vet has the bird on some probiotic "unfriendly" drug, I would continue to use the probiotics everyday, a little in the formula or water. The probiotics will create gut bacteria which will inhibit bacteria as well as allow the bird to put on some weight, as the digestion is enhanced.

If you are using the ACV then definitely use the probiotics,they work together, and the need for probiotics is maximum in a stresed bird with health issues. I use it as well as colloidal silver in treatment for cocci.

ACV will provide the acidic environment for healthy gut bacteria to thrive, as well as inhibit bad bacteria, but only probiotics will actually repopulate the gut bacteria. Gut bacteria is depleted under stress, illness, and especially in young birds, who are usually don't have enough to begin with.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

When I have to tube feed, I use the heat-shrink tubing. I guess I'll take a picture of a bag from the store (I need a new collection anyway) and also show how to prepare the tubing for use. The kind I get from Home Depot or Lowe's is so soft that it never seems to hurt the birds--at least, I've been able to feed them very quickly and never had a problem like some we've talked about before. I've never had one of the hard tubes before to try and haven't gone looking for them as I've always been scared of them. Others don't have a problem with 'em and love 'em but mine works for me just fine.

Cricket, 

It's possible that your vets meds for Capillaria isn't the best for birds. In "Hey, Zeus!'s" current condition, a drug that's pretty good for those can be pretty hard on the bird. I would use a Levamisol based wormer to get the ones out of the intestinal tract and then repeat later. Your vet may not be able to get those but there are ways through importers.

If I had to make an overall guess, your bird has probably felt like absolute crap due to the worms, the coccidia and/or something else and just hasn't felt like eating to the point of death. They will do that sometimes. In a case like that, you are often stuck with essentially force-feeding the bird because they will just go ahead and die otherwise. Some diseases cause depression and that in and of itself can kill the bird this way.

As Phil said, 4 ounces is very dangerous and the way back up can be treacherous. If you feed them too much, they can sour and get crop stasis (things just stop) so it's a "weigh 'em a few times a day" affair. Emaciation is very hard on a bird and it can cause organ damage, sometimes permanent. That doesn't mean that the bird can't be brought back, just that it may affect its overall lifespan. 

Anyhow, you need to be progressive on the feedings and slowly work your way back up to the ballpark of 15 cc's, three times a day, of a slurry that's more pudding-like. There are instructions that come with the formulas and they will tell you something like a 10 to 15% of the bird's weight per meal, three times per day.

A one-pound bird is about one-half kilogram and an 8 ounce bird is half of that or about 250 grams. At four ounces you're at about 125 grams so 10 to 15% of that weight would be 12.5 to almost 19 grams or cc's. A gram is, by definition, one cubic centimeter of water for all practical concerns.

Now, if your vet is considering chlamydiosis (which didn't seem unreasonable back when you were describing his original symptom of crusting eyes) then that's a more serious consideration. That's one that you can actually get from a bird and it causes respiratory problems (humans and birds). There is often a clear nasal discharge besides the conjunctivitis (swollen, inflamed tissue around the eyes) and often labored breathing. The cure for that one is Doxycycline given for about three weeks for both humans and birds.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

ok all... lots to take in here. I will reread and go from there. New problem is now the crop is full and not moving the seeds I have popped in there. I have been pusing the ACV water and a drop of olive oil per syringe. I got a tube from the vet and I went right to it, the crop I mean and flushed the water in there. Nothing came up and it all went too easy. Now I have been massaging the crop, but things seem stuck. He pooped small poops today. NOt so vibrant green. The vet wants me to bring him in tomorrow. He has been on the phone with an Aviary specialist and is waiting for some place in Ca. to send him blood level charts for a pigeon. He wants me to get the crop clear so we can start up the Coccidia treatment asap. He says I will have to suck the seeds back out of his crop if the flusing does not do it. So how much ACV water per syringe flush should I be putting in there? I just did 5 cc no probelm. I can't beilieve this is happening. I wish I never gave him any seeds, but he ate them up so nicely. I did not understand that his crop might get packed with them. I can feel them in there and I don't think the two times I've flushed him with water is helping. I did it this morning before work and as soon as I came home. I did not feed him anything... I feel horrible. Like Hey Zues.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Now I am flushing the crop with 1.5 cc every 30 minutes. I went to another thread and read 1 cc with a drop of olive oil, does not seem like enough, but ok. I hope 5 cc's was not a huge mistake on top of the seed thing. His crop did not swell up or even feel much different after I put it all in there. Ugh.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There's another thread about someone using Bicarbonate of Soda to make their pigeon vomit the soured crop contents up. I'll go see if I can find it and edit this post with the link.

Okay, this was it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12230

But I have to warn you that a pigeon that's gone down in weight like this one has doesn't have a lot of reserves to be messing with. Even throwing up can be life threatening. He most likely went down more due to something else that has heretofore been untreated (possibly chlamydiosis but there are other things that can cause those symptoms) and the other things (at least the coccidiosis) are opportunistic. That wouldn't apply to the worms, of course.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I'm bringing him to the vets first thing in the am, so if this crop has not emptied or moved some, then I think I will leave it to my vet to suction these seeds out or make him vomit. I am afraid I have made things worse with this new problem. My question now is should I still be feeding this starved soul with formula on top of the seeds in the crop??? I have an appointment I am off to in a few minutes, but will be back around 7pmish. Please send me some more instructions on getting us thru the night and to the vet. I am afraid of killing him!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I wouldn't add anything at this point as he's already had too much. If he wants to drink water, I'd let him but that's about all. He could have candidiasis (yeast in the crop) and that causes bloating amongst other things. Clearing a crop is a scary thing to do and if a bird is very ill, it can be especially easy for them to aspirate (breathe in) some of the vomitus and end up with aspiration pneumonia. That's bad.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

He won't drink on his own. The bowl of water is convenient but he is disinterested. I went ahead and gave him some more ACV water, about 1.5 cc. Then I gave him about 1 cc with olive oil added by mouth. He is pooping small poops AND the crop does not feel as large right now. Wishful thinking, but I swear it feels smaller! Could it be? I figure I should give him the night and see in the am. The vet will see him in the am too. He is very alert and standing tall again. I hope this crop empties on its own.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

Even w/human constipation, massaging is a useful tool to provide relief. I would continue to massage the crop. Don't worry about whether you are imaging improvement or not, just give it your best for now.

For your info and to put you at ease, even tho you may not think so initially;

Cappillara:

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/articles/resistant_forms.htm\

From Paul Walsh Lofts:

" For a while worms in pigeons had decreased dramatically because of the new wormers that became available in the late 80's. The incidence of worms is rising again. Don't neglect this aspect of pigeon health. Remember to treat before every season, for worms. Ivomec will eliminate Capallaria (hairworms), but usually will not completely eliminate Roundworms. If you have a roundworm problem use Pyrantel Pamoate. It is a safe and inexpensive medication which usually only has to be used for one day,and can be dosed in the water. "


For the cecal worms, in addition to what Pidgey the Poo posted, febendazole would also be appropriate.

Worms can migrate to alot of areas of the body which we find unthinkable,
one of them being the eyes. I know this from a few years study on parasites. In fact one of the links that I found on cecal worms discussed such a location for Cecal Worm in pigeons. Until the vet actually says that the eye problem was/is related to a bacterial infection, I would concern myself w/the 
issue of parasites which your bird definitively does have. Because the digestive track will be helter skelter, once the crop has cleared, I would focus on creation of an environment which these nasties don't like to live in.

Vitamins in water, Probiotics as Treesa mentioned, ACV, these are all things that the pij can readily use. If he has to use too much energy digesting what you give him, it's just plain too much work for him right now. I would D/C the seeds and stick w/ a watered down formula mixed w/other things that will boost his reserves.

Best,

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket, 

His Crop might be a little slow since his whole digestive system has been stressed and has not had much going through it for a while...and if intestinal worms are present also, I imagine they can slow matters themselves both by their physical presence and from whatever toxins they may excrete...

So, his Crop 'may' take a day and a half to clear without it per-se being an issue of worry or an indicator of Crop stasis as such.

At least in some of my own experience, ill or emeciated Birds who began eating on their own, whom I also fed nutritious formula to, woul dtake much longer for their Seeds to pass their Crop than usual for a healthy Bird, but they would tend to pass just fine, as their system got going again for processing food and good old fashioned poop-making.

If he IS making some poops now, that is of course a very good sign that things are beginngin, at a trickle maybe, to go through...

And, I would expect the poops to slowly start getting larger and more frequent as his system finds it's stride again...that is, unless other issues are preventing this or interfereing too much.

If his Crop is more than half full, maybe stop feeding him then for a while untill it has emptied or emptied more.

If his medical treatment tomorrow requires an empty Crop, then either it will have to be evacuated, or, you will ave to wait and see how the Crop does over the course of another day or so.

But emaciated Birds, so far as I recall, will often tend to process their Seeds much more slowly at first, untill their system finds it's stride again.

Best wishes to you both..!!!!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

You have all been so helpful in getting us through this... I really appreciate all the time spent writing in regards to my situation, so thanks again. Today at the vet I learned that Hey Zues has some sort of bacterial infection according to his blood work. The doctor does not think it is Chlamydia. The Vet wanted me to give him one cc of formula and then bring him back in the early afternoon for a shot of Reglin .03 mg. I have some shots already loaded and I am to give him a shot 2x day IM. I used to be a vet tech, so this is easy for me to do. I am also supposed to give him 1/4 tablet of Baytril 2x day crushed and in his formula. Along with that, every 10 days, 2 drops of Strongid orally. I have already put the probiotics in his ACV water that is in his dish for him to drink at will. I have not seen him do this on his own yet. He is pooping small poops and pretty regularly. He now weighs .6 instead of .4. Wow, can these guys fluctuate in weight or what? His crop still has seeds in it, but even less than last night. The vet says to keep feeding him formula despite the seeds as long as I do a little at a time and often and watery. He did talk to a Bird Specialist who has pigeon experience. So what do you all think? Does this sound safe and likely to treat his current state? Is this an acceptable plan of action? for such a compromised bird? I'm a bit hesitant but Hey Zeus actually ran around the office and was not at all wobbily. He is strong too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the Reglan is used to stimulate peristalsis so it'll get the GI moving and clear it out. That'll be just what you need--a crappy pigeon!

Baytril is one of the big-gun antibiotics but it doesn't get everything. Frankly, it's a lot more difficult than one would think to find absolute evidence of many infectious agents and sites of infection. Sometimes, for instance, the only way is to take a biopsy from an organ and run a culture. Given that the various procedures to take and process every sample could easily run into the thousands of dollars, it's usually a game of medicate and see if the condition improves. Even our human doctors do it that way on us. It's just economic and practical.

I'd bet that his weight mostly dipped down so low due to dehydration and it came back up that little bit but still a huge percentage based on the rehydration more than anything. That would explain the weak or "drunk" behavior earlier as well.

To tell the truth, I think I've had pigeons that have "given up" and when they've watched me TRY to bring them back, have decided that maybe life was still possible and have gotten back into the fight. I've come to believe that a positive attitude can go a very long way in the healing process. I will even take sick pigeons for a walk where they can see other pigeons doing pigeon things. I do this to let them know that their world is waiting on them to get better. I'm sure it helps but there's no way to prove it, of course.

Anyhow, "Hey, Zeus" isn't out of the woods yet but it sounds like he's heading in the right direction. You might want to ask the vet if you need to adjust the Baytril if his weight begins to increase dramatically (can do that). I also didn't see in that med lineup that there was anything for the return of the coccidiosis. You might ask about that.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket, 


I am very happy to hear you describe these improvements!

Hard to say how much weight is the Crop Cintents, but he definitely sounds like he is improveing now.

Please make sure with all this feeding into his throat, that your impliment is very soft...

The ACV Water will certainly help diminish whatever undesireable bacteria are in his system.

The bacteria issue very likely is secondary in origin, and opportunistic to his starvation and weakened immune system...which themselves I suppose were secondary to his endoparasite issues.

I will guess, that if you can get rid of the 'Worms'...and feed him the MOST nutritious formula you can make, his outlook will have the best support and outcome. The stress of the meds for de-worming will be offset as much as possible by the best nutrition you can give him.

Certainly bacteria if of dangerous levels should be dealt with directly with meds...



If you can use the powdered "Chlorella" and even a little powdered Garlic and of course the Pro Biotics in his formula, this will help him fight off these things for nourishing his own endemic defences, which ultimatly will be what is very much needed here, no matter what meds are being used, as Pidgey mentions, the various bacteria present and trying to do mischief are not necessarily all going to be addressed by any gtiven med.

Go to a health food store and get a packet of 'Goji Berries' also, and take a half a cup of those and put them in a Kitchen Blender and grind the hell out of them so they ecome powder, stirr often from the bottom with a knife or something to get the ones out of there so they get pulverised also, with the Blender of course in the "OFF" mode, lol...and do however many rounds of blending that it needs.

Mix this powder, say, even use it one part of it to five of the other dry ingredients, in your formula...if the powder of the Berries will pass your syringe, and I think they will.

Keep a good eye on that Crop..!

But as long as you are doing the ACV Water, I feel confident his Crop will be happy...

The Candida is very dangerous for these Birds when they have become weak or ill otherwise, and the ACV will keep it from getting any foothold.

How many ans what size and what appearance, of the poops so far?


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, the Reglan is used to stimulate peristalsis so it'll get the GI moving and clear it out. That'll be just what you need--a crappy pigeon!
> 
> 
> To tell the truth, I think I've had pigeons that have "given up" and when they've watched me TRY to bring them back, have decided that maybe life was still possible and have gotten back into the fight. I've come to believe that a positive attitude can go a very long way in the healing process. I will even take sick pigeons for a walk where they can see other pigeons doing pigeon things. I do this to let them know that their world is waiting on them to get better. I'm sure it helps but there's no way to prove it, of course.
> ...


Hi Pidgey, 

I did not know about 'Reglan' but it sounds handy for some occasions, for sure!

Do you recall from what suppier you obtained it? Is it a 'Bird' medcine per-se or is it used for many species?

And yes, your next paragraph, this is my experience also...definitely...

I will gently carry them outside and crouch with them for them to be near the grazing ferals, and also just stand there with them and me talking to them about how they will get well and be out there flying again.

This can really help them just as you describe...

fp, Pidgey also, 


Thanks for your clearifications about your into-the-gullet feeding impliments.

iIonically maybe, the only Heat Shrink tubeing I have ever had was very stiff and 'sharp' so I was not aware that this may be an unusual condition for it ( mine might be from the first debut of this kind of product, too, for that matter...and be pretty old! Lol...)


However, I am sure you will agree, that if you have a Baby Dove to 'tube feed' for some reason, then a svery soft, Silicone Catheter of maybe 1/8th inch O.D. would be gentle for them and safe...they do have quite tiny throats...!


 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Thanks for the explanations Pidgey and Phil. I think you guys are awesome! I wish I had another pigeon for Hey Zues to visit from afar. He only has the birds who frequent the feeder outside the window to view. He also has a breezy singer gold finch toy that chirps when a light goes across it's sensor. I think he likes him. Anyhow, I will make a run to the health food store to get the chorella and the Gogi berries as soon as I can. The probiotics are already available. His poops are turning into skinny little snakes of dark green. His crop seems even less full or compact. I keep putting water in there and massaging it. So once it is clear, how much formula should I go up to? I had stopped with the formula until the little he has had today. I think we all decided he should have between 10 and 15 cc's 3 x day ultimately. I just don't think I should start out with that much now or at least build up to it as his crop full of seeds diminishes. How about 5 cc's tonight? He has only had 3cc's so far today...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket,


I may be the only 'Goji-Berry' fan here so far, but they have been investigated to be among the most nutritious and immune-nourishing foods known to man...similarly in a different angle, is the Chlorella...do some 'googles' on them at leaisure, beaing in mind of course that many 'health food' things get immodestly hyped by sellers of them! Lol...

Both are entirely compatible with items these Birds would eat if Wild and able to elect them in their forragings.

So, I have been useing these for some while now in both the formulas for Babys, and, for the convelesent Birds needing to be tube fed. As well as that I cut the little long-football shaped Goji Berries into thirds or so for Seed-Pop occasions.

Anyway, if it was me, I would try and see to it that his diet was composed of a combination, alternating in their feedings, of Seeds and next meal, of formula. But really it would not matter if he had both in the same feeding session.


Now, in my thinking, as long as he is processing these present Seeds, he may as well be allowed more of them, as well as some fine Grit of a "Granite" kind and not of a Calcium Carbonate kind, since the latter is a 'no-no' with the Baytril...and to lket him have Seeds in deference to the rate he can process them, and that rate should be improveing, too.

This way his little stomach and Gizzard will be called upon to do something more, and this benifits ( in my imagining anyway) the viscerotonic and circulatory conditions in those areas, and generally stimulates his whole system with familiar and endemic activity and process.


The 'green snakes' seem consistant to me with a previously sluggish system processing formula and starting to get on it's feet again.

Any 'yellow' or 'white'?

Maybe not yet but soon, there should be 'white' in the poops...

Just feed impirically by judgeing the Crop as best you can...of course formula is harder to 'feel' or see IN the Crop to tell how much of it has procedded down and on from there, but you can get some idea. 

I think that Seeds to the tune of maybe a rounded teaspoon full or so, and formula about as you mention, 15 CCs therabouts, alternating every couple hours, or as his Crop and system can handle, is what I'd do.

It will be a little while yet before he feels like eating on his own again, but when he does, there will be no mystery about it! He might even be paceing in the cage anxious for you to bring some Seeds!

So you can keep a little bowl of smallish to medium sized Seeds in there for him...and when he is ready, he will start pecking them.

What kinds of Seeds do you have?

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Phil, I've got a "secret weapon" when it comes to baby doves... I call it "somebody else." There's a lady who always sends pigeons to me and she does doves so I always send them to her! Turnabout is fair play, you know.

The heat shrink tubing I get is almost too soft. The only actual worry I have for it is that the surface is kinda' rough. It's too soft to bother the esophagus but it could definitely harbor a bacterial colony so you have to work at it to clean and disinfect it.

I've never used Reglan although I probably should have some just for me because I suffer crop-slowdown every time I eat chili (which is every time I can get it). It was originally created for human-use, I think. It's a prescription that I'd guess a vet would have to write and maybe even a real pharmacy would have to fill. Cricket will have to tell you about it--she's going to end up knowing more about it than we do very shortly.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Oh yeah, the tube I am using is very soft and pliable. I got it from my vet. It seems to slip right down and has not sharp edges. The heat shrink tubing I had is also soft and rubbery. I like the one the vet gave me better though. I think the Reglin is for all sorts of animals since I had to drive to another vet who does not see birds this am to pick it up for my vet who had none. Hey Zues is getting very used to me. He is such a good patient bird. I hope he can survive all of this. My loft is on hold, but it is so close to being finished. I was planning on more birds, but I think considering this experience and this isolated situation, I will wait until the Winter passes and start up in the spring when things won't be so cold. I am anxious to see what it will be like to have a healthy pigeon. I can't even imagine.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cricket, you're doing an awesome job. Just thought I'd mention that we give out pigeons the Pyrantel/strongid for worms and it does a really good job. Our vet says it is a very "forgiving" wormer. By that, I think she meant if you need to give it kinda "back to back" it won't hurt the bird.

BTW, I've been doing this "birding" 12 years and have never had the nerve to tube feed and probably never will as long as they keep making Catac nipples. So, my Chicago Cubs hat is off to you. 

Maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket, 

Yes, "Hear Hear!" - you are doing a great job there with this Bird..!

I think you will find, that no matter the fine satisfactions of having Birds one may fly or race or keep in various ways...

That aiding the orphan, the wayward, the inujured or ill of the feral ones, is potentially about the most profound and intimate and involved and satisfying of all.

And you will learn more of necessity and interest in the only real way there is to learn it, by doing it, and seeking information or experiences of others to widen your understandings and practices. and you can get to know them far far more and in other ways, and the ones who may be released, you get to see fly off like a 'Rocket'... than if 'just' keeping Birds bought for fun.


Pidgey!

That is a good 'Secret Weapon' to have...!

Lol...

But then you miss on how totally adorable these little Doves are, how 'like' Pigeons but 'miniature' and how un-like Pigeons in some ways, too. They are definite characters just like Pigeons are, each one a disinct personality and presence and mood to them...and when 'little', they can be VERY 'little' indeed...!

Thing is though, with the Morning Doves, is they DO look a great deal alike once of an age! and their differences then are more subtle than with our Pigeons who have their varied markings and colors...


Maggie!


The 'tube-into-the-Crop' method of feeding, is something you will excell in once you slow down the idea into it's sequential component elements and appreciations of the apparatis and it's use.

I too in my way was loathe to try it, and finally, when I recieved an adult feral Pigeon with a severe Eye infection and extreme emaciation some several months ago, I had to do something! - he would not eat otherwise.

So, I summoned the presence of mind to carefully reherse the proceedure, and...it went splendidly!

And I have done very well with it many times since for various youngsters and adullt Birds who without it, would have perished.

A little mental rehersal off and on for a while, going through the steps. restraining them in a cut off sock heel section or small towell..opening their Beak and how to do it, looking down in there in a good light...all of this can be prectices before the actual feed-ooccasion...

...practice like that a little, and review of the physiology and technique, and you will find it both easy and even fun, and very effecient too...especially when the Bird has no other real options for the time being, and you see them get that 'look' of, "MmmmmmM! Thats not bad!" when you have done it...

All of us here will be more than happy to slightly contradict eachother in long digressive and possibly confuseing explications, in coaching you, if you like...!

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Ahhh thanks you guys. I needed that. This site is a saviour to so many of us. I don't really know where this little guy would be if it weren't for the advice and encouragement I have been getting here. 

Hey Zues is off to bed like myself. I am exhausted and have a busy day tomorrow. I will give him 5 cc's in the am and some ACV water with probiotics in it before I head off to work. His crop feels sooooooo much better. I was able to give him 5 cc's a few minutes ago and then his shot in the muscle. 

His poops are still green snakes, but morning will most likely be a different story. No whites yet Phil. No bubbles either.

The food I have is a pigeon mix from Agway feed supply. It has many different seeds, but I would have to read the bag to tell you what. I am no seed expert. I think I should make an order online from that New England Supply place. What food/seeds do you recommend as being top of the line? or healthiest? I am quite sure what I have is an economy mix. It was a 50 lb bag for twenty something dollars if my memory serves me right. I will leave a bowl of fresh seed in his cage again. I had taken it out yesterday for fear that he would eat some and add to his packed crop. (not likely) I will offer a seed here and there after I have him taking a full 15 cc's each session. I am still hesitant to up the feeding to that much until I feel that crop empty of seeds. 

Maggie, tube feeding sounds so scary and looks strange but like Phil said, you muster up the courage to help these little souls and somehow it goes nice and easy. I have not run into any problems thus far. Just go slow and steady. I have actually been doing this alone. The shot I needed someone to hold him for me. The tube feeding actually feels best when I can manipulate the head of the pigeon myself and feel everything that I am doing and if the bird really struggles or not. He amazingly has cooperated each time. When it is done and the tube comes out, Hey Zues looks just as he did before. I massage his crop and he settles right into it. I think he is beginning to like it. 

I sure hope he pulls through all of this. Thanks again to each one of you for your support. When we get back on track I will take a new photo of Hey Zues and share it online (if my computer doesn't crash with the upload)

Goodnight for now. I will update tomorrow after work.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cricket said:


> Hey Zues is off to bed like myself. I am exhausted and have a busy day tomorrow. I will give him 5 cc's in the am and some ACV water with probiotics in it before I head off to work.
> 
> *Hi Cricket, regarding the use of probiotics and antibiotics ie.Baytril, there are different schools of thought on that one. Some folks believe that if you are administering an antibiotic, that it will kill off all beneficial effects of the probiotic,in addition, others believe that it will additionally overwork the antibiotic. Another school of thought believes that if you alternate administration of antibiotic and probiotic during the day that the adverse effects of killing all bacteria ("pre-emptive strike mode"), including the good bacteria, are minimized. Bottom line is, that if you choose to use the second approach, the general rule of thumb is that you would alternate the administration of probiotics and antibiotics. If you need, according to script, to give the antibiotic a.m. & p.m., then you would administer the probiotics @ lunch and bedtime given that the antibiotics w/be given @ breakfast & dinner.*
> 
> ...


Thanks again for all of your continued updates,

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Nothing new to report on the poops. Still snake like and not as much as I had hoped to see today so far. 

I was able to feed him 15 cc's this am. That was alot considering I have only been doing up to 5 cc's. He did fine with it. I massaged his crop and the seeds are still in there, but even less. 

I left Hey Zues home so he did not have the travel stress yet alone the barking stress. When I got home I immediately gave him another 15 cc's. He looks good. No good poops though. He is definately not eating or drinking anything on his own yet. The bowls are untouched. Poor thing.

Thanks for the tips fp. The antibiotic and probiotic dilemna... hmmm I always take acidopholus and such if I ever must take an antibiotic. Thanks for the information. I will probably alternate then. 

So how long before these meds truly kick in? on average?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Wish I could help you! but someone will be on soon that can, I am sure!

When I first got Squidget as a very tiny one, he had been fed seeds and grit and had a lot of gas! I did the ACV mix but his crop still did not empty for at least 5 days, that grit was heavy in his crop. I still fed him, but it was watery K-tee mix. I also learned how to burp him. I think a stressed bird digests very slow, but they still need nutrition.

You are doing very good, I believe when his crop does empty he is gona be one hungry bird!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, with Babys, a Baby who has had a fall to the ground, or a Baby who has had a chill, both may have Crops which slow down or stop for a while. Chill certainly slows down their digestive system seriously...but so can bruising from a fall.

Then, sometimes, the fermentation of their Crop's contents taking too long to pass into digestion, breeds various molds, fungi and yeasts, and among them the Candida is a bad one and will infect the lineing of their Crop and from there on 'down' also into their entire digestive system...effecting the movements of these muscles to pas the food on through...so that the contents OF that Crop do not move at all. And their Stomach and Gizzard and Intestines are effected badly also, and they will cease their usual routines. 

So, from 'there' it all gets worse unto a very real life threatening crisis.

This is why in descriptions that suggest the possibility of Candida (Slow Crop, gas inflated Crop, Crop not passing Seeds, not passing globs of wadded up 'formula' and so on) i have tended to recommend the ACV-in-Water.

5 days or so is about usual so far as I know for a Candida infection to pass, in order for the Contents of the Crop to start passing through again into the other Organs, themselves, just getting back on line.

So, dnrslucky1, if Squidget took about 5 days to pass his initial Contents of his Crop from when you got him, that is probably about to be expected if his Candida was treated soon after getting him...

I will guess the ACV Water in this case saved his Life...

'Nystatin' also is often used to treat Candida...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cricket said:


> Nothing new to report on the poops. Still snake like and not as much as I had hoped to see today so far.
> 
> 
> So how long before these meds truly kick in? on average?


Hi Cricket,

Given his condition, it might be a while before they are truly normal again w/"snow-caps". Did the vet ever give you anything for the coccidiosis? Perhaps he felt that the other things should be treated first. Did he ever let you know what bacterial infection he believed Hey Zeus to have? Ecoli, Paratyphoid, etc....

Also, did he do a crop swab? Did he say that he thought the pij's crop problem to be bacterial based or yeast based?

How is Hey Zeus' weight and are his balance issues seeming to improve?
I really don't know about the Reglan and how soon to see an improvement there, perhaps calling the vets office Monday a.m. and asking would give you a better idea of what to expect from that drug. If the Baytril is reaching the 
bacterial problem that the vet suspects, I would think you would notice some
differences within the first 2-3 days...

You're doing an awesome job with this little one, keep up the good work and 
keep us posted on his progress.

Best,

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

When Hey Zues was weighed at the vets last he was 6 oz. I do not have a scale at home to say what he weighs currently. 

The balance problem is almost completely gone. I hesitate to say all the way gone since he does not walk about the cage frequently when I am present.

As for what kind of bacterial problem, he did not have a clue. This was indicated by the blood level reading he and a specialist went over. So no diagnosis on what kind.

The vet also did not do a crop swab. He thinks the birds crop was in such a state because the bird is/was sooo sick. That is where the Reglan came in. When I look in his mouth to tube feed, all seems to look normal. I know that this is no indication as to what might be going on in the crop, but so far, no signs of anything unusual.


The coccidiosis treatment that we originally used was one that had to be treated without any other meds, so I think that the vet may be waiting now to see how he responds to the other meds first and then we will treat that one again. I had been giving Hey Zues the colloidal silver in his drinking water, but he stopped drinking on his own and now that all of this other stuff is happening, I have not added that one in there too. ACV, Probiotics, and silver in the water? 

The poops of the day are much larger and finally do have the white snow caps to 'em. Hooray! Each feeding has been around 14 - 15 cc's! The crop feels pretty clear, just a few seeds. I think the meds are starting to do their thing.

I also spied on Hey Zues when he did not know I was around and I watched him go thru the grit bowl! I think the seed dish has been disturbed too! I'm not positive on the seeds but the grit I saw him peck thru. The water dish is also a little less than last night. It doesn't look dirty though. I just refilled it and will keep a close eye on it throughout the day. So finally some positive news!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

I'm sending some links your way, the first set concerning pigeons illnesses, symptoms and diseases. Think you said that the pijies mouth was pink and clear w/out any growths. For thrush/Candida, scroll down towards the end to 
find common sypmptoms. The pij did have balance issues, digestive problems and blood work showed signs of bacterial infection. You be the judge. 

The second set of links are for drug info.

Not sure about all three in water, perhaps Treesa or Reti could answer on that one. Does seem a bit much. It's great to hear that he is rumaging thru his bowls on his own, that is really good news. Between the Reglan helping to push things thru, the antibiotic for the infection, and _all of your supportive care and hand fed supplements_, it looks as tho Hey Zeus is 
making a good come back. Wonderful news indeed!  

fp



http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/diagnosis.htm#Salmonellosis (paratyphoid)

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

http://members.aol.com/duiven/vet.htm



http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5176&highlight=tetracycline

http://www.rxlist.com/


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Balance issues can result reliably from sheer starvation, regardless of any other primary bacteria/illness issues which caused the Bird either to lose it's appetite or to not be eating.

I have seen this often, where, a new arrive emaciated Bird can hardly stand or will fall over forward and so on, and this balance-problem is actually showing how weak they have become...how starved, rather than that it is neurological in some other way. Once getting some nutrients in them for a couple days, this clears up, and when these clear up, they stay cleared up.

Glad to hear of some 'Snow Caps'...!

This is very good indeed!

Your Vet seems sincere and trying to help, but it does not sound like he is familiar with Pigeons and their common illnesses and the most forthright ways of diagnosis or treatment.

Now, can you refresh my memory on the 'worm' issue?

And on whatever else the Vet made positive statements about as for what he is sure the Bird 'has'?

"Foys", for $20.00, will do a fecal exam and call you with the results and talk WITH you on what-to-do for whatever it is.

You can next-day a tablespoon worth of poo to them, maybe call first and make sure to talk with them and tell them you are sending it.

Find them in a 'Google' if you want, "Foys Pigeon Supply" I think it is...

This might help by cutting to the chase a little better than 'blood work' exams which in practice tell only of a high white count indicateing infection somewhere of some kind. Which will be presumed to be 'bacterial'...and maybe is, too. But it may also be secondary to the worm issue or who knows.

If you cen get a determination on what he actually does 'have', you can then know what meds and regimen for treating him from here on.

Absolutely though, his Nutrition and hydration (and warmth) are very crucial now...and he is getting better, but still there are things which would be best if they can be identified positively so the right treatmens can begin a.s.a.p.

I am so glad to hear he is comeing 'up'..!

Try 'Foys'..!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cricket,

Take the grit away if he's on Baytril. Calcium chelates Baytril so it's best to take it away during antibiotic therapy. The same goes for the tetracycline family of antibiotics.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Cricket,
> 
> Take the grit away if he's on Baytril. Calcium chelates Baytril so it's best to take it away during antibiotic therapy. The same goes for the tetracycline family of antibiotics.
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks, P-T-P, that's been overlooked!

Feisty

PS--
When you uploading a pic so we can see what ya look like?!?


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

oooo I will go get the grit out NOW! oops! Thanks Pidgey. I hope it hasn't hurt his progress.

Phil, the worms that had been identified are Coccidiosis, lots of those, Capallaria, and Cecal worm. Originally, first fecal float, only the coccidia and the capallaria showed up. I just don't recall the medication for the coccidia, I swear it sounded like Batryl, could it have been Bactrum? Anyway, that had to be treated alone, so he was on it for lets say one week. After that, he gave Hey Zues a shot IM for the Capallaria. That happened twice and 10 days apart. I also don't know what that med was at this point. How would he know what or where the bacterial infection is? He is unexperienced with pigeons, but he did talk to a Bird specialist and someone who deals with pigeons. I will talk with him tomorrow as I am out of his Reglan shot as of tomorrow am. Maybe it has been enough since he is pooping freely. It is of a much lighter green and bigger in size. Not all poops have white caps, but some. Things are definately moving along now. 

The fecal floats that they do at my vet cost around $8. Does Foys do more? or is it they just know better what meds to prescribe?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket, 


Thanks...I had got a little lost-along-the-way there.

Grit-wise, if you have the 'Granite' or 'Quartz' or small-tiny 'rocks' kind of Grit, which do not contain Calcium compounds, then it is fine, it is the "Calcium Carbonate" based kind, such as the small fragments of crushed Shells or Oyster Shells that one needs to pull if useing the Baytril.

I will guess that the questions for now are:

- What remains of these 'worms' then for continueing meds to be used to eradicate them..?

- What remains of the Coccidiosis for the meds to be continued for that..?

He may fight off and eradicate the bacterial just for getting stonger-nourished, but if one knew what specific bacteria is predominantly of concern, then the appropriate med of course would be an option to help him get rid of that business...


I am stating the obvious here - just trying to think straight...! Lol...


The poops are a very good sign of things improveing, for sure...

Foys might not have much to add at this point, I did not remember that your Vet was doing 'floats'...but Foys of course is all about Pigeons, so, they are a good voice of experience sometimes.

 
Good going!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Phil, the grit is a mix and in reading the endless ingredients, calcium is one of them. I already took it out of his cage. Maybe without it there, he will focus on his seed. The water has been sipped. I am really pleased about that. 

I think the plan is that once the meds I have run out, we do another fecal float to see if we changed any of it. Then we go from there. I hope we get good results from the Baytril, Reglan, and Strongid. The Strongid is 2 drops orally every 10 days, so it doesn't seem like it could be helping all that much at this point. I understand the Baytril will kill off a bacteria and the Reglan moves the digestive system along, but obviously the worms are going to remain unless more worming happens. 

Maybe a phone call to Foys wouldn't hurt. I will see what I can do about that tomorrow sometime during the day. 

Thanks for your kind and helpful suggestions. Hey Zues benefits!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cricket said:


> Phil, the grit is a mix and in reading the endless ingredients, calcium is one of them. I already took it out of his cage. Maybe without it there, he will focus on his seed. The water has been sipped. I am really pleased about that.
> 
> I think the plan is that once the meds I have run out, we do another fecal float to see if we changed any of it. Then we go from there. I hope we get good results from the Baytril, Reglan, and Strongid. The Strongid is 2 drops orally every 10 days, so it doesn't seem like it could be helping all that much at this point. I understand the Baytril will kill off a bacteria and the Reglan moves the digestive system along, but obviously the worms are going to remain unless more worming happens.
> 
> ...



Hi Cricket,

The grit and Baytril question never arrived consensus for me in the various threads, I do however keep on hand a granite style grit made for pigeons that I use for Baytril because of the doubt in my mind one way or another. Most definitively for the Tetracycline family. And good to raise the issue.

The Baytril, will only kill off bacteria sensitive to Baytril, however, it is considered a big enough gun to get so many of the conditions common for pigeons that it is frequently used instead of running a bunch of expensive tests that may cause someone to go broke in addition to the doctors visits.

As far as I know, coccidiosis is a parasite which lives in almost all pigeons, however, they are not always treated for if considered asymptomatic so as not to disturb the host-parasite equilibrium. I'm not sure you will ever really get rid of them. But with supportive natural health measures your pij will enjoy good health.

Regarding the medication for the coccidiosis that sounded like Baytril, could it have been Bactrim??

From Nooti's drug list here @ PT:

"TRIMETHOPRIM/SULPHONAMIDES (Septrin, Bactrim, Co-trim, Tribrissen, Septra, Sulphatrim)
Dose - 50-100mgs per kilo. BID 7 days
Effective against most anaerobic bacteria and therefore suitable for gut bacterial infections and coccdial overburdens. The very best of this family of drugs is Trimethoprim Sulphamethoxazole- (Septrin) which effects a cure in 99.9% of cases if caught early. Can be used in conjunction with penicillins.
It is ineffective in the presence of necrotic tissue."

The worms are also difficult to fully get rid of if they have had long enuf to enter into the auto-ingest mode according to Parasite textbooks. They need to be treated regularly to interupt the cycle and eventually along w/this, by creating an environment that is more difficult for them to flourish in, they will go away. They typically enjoy non-complex carbohydrates and sugars, things that are easy to break down. Also the type of diet that many ferals survive on. So you are already a step ahead of them. Check out worm infestation at
the Chevita site, and notice that the similar conditions listed are paratyphoid/salmonellosis, ecoli, and coccidiosis.

As far as getting cheaper fecal floats than $8.00 bucks a pop, I don't think you'll readily find those. The trick is to get your vet to do a fecal float w/out the office visit. Only using the office visit for emergencies and not on-going health issues. Perhaps explaining to him that this is a feral and you plan to do rehab for others as you find them in need and could the two of you please reach an understanding??? If you have some meds on hand from the pij supply houses for the major problems a pij might/does encounter, and a nutritional program in tact that will boost his own immune system, then you won't end up giving the vet the financial resources for treatment on things you can do yourself that will end up being the difference between buying a house or giving to the vet.

And BTW, he sounds like a very upstanding vet, willing to go the extra mile to try and help you by verifying with someone familiar w/pigeons, so this is not to cast doubt or predjudice against him. It is plain and simply very expensive to rely on a vet for all meds and the required office visits in order to obtain those meds. 

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

You are so right fp. Vets can be very expensive, but you see, I have an advantage here. My particular vet is also my landlord for the Grooming Facility that I own. He and I have known eachother on a professional level for 12 years. He owns four very dirty k9 friends that I groom for him for free. These guys are gross, because they love to roll and be outside. This benefits me as he will often not charge me for vet visits. So far, I only had to pay for meds, fecal floats and bloodwork. I'd say he is being extemely fair. I don't use this vet for my dogs, but for every stray I have picked up, he has been the one who has taken the time and come through for us. Don't know why, because when he was my vet for my personal dogs, he was a moody son of a bee and things got kind of ugly. Long story not worth getting into. Over the years he has welcomed my wacky rescues. He also went out of his way to save a rescued duck I rehabbed who ended up eating shotgun pellets as she foraged through the grass and inevitably got lead poisoning! She used the pellets in her gizzard and that just turned into a mess. He saved her though. So, unlike so many pigeon rescuers, I have a barter system in place. I know how fortunate I am here. This is why I stick with him regardless of his experience with pigeons. He is willing to do the HW to some extent and so far it is working out. 

I think it was Bactrim! I had to get it at a human pharmacy and the first bottle I got, I spilled the entire contents in my lap! I had to go back and get more. I would imagine that is what he will prescribe again once Hey Zues is doing better in the other areas.

I just called over at the vet and the doc is not in and the tech who is on this case won't be in until this afternoon. I will go there later today to try to get more direction on this plan. Hey Zues is happy and bright this morning. I have seen a few seeds out of the dish, so I think he may have pecked at some! His poops are still not as big as they used to be but they are there and they have the whites. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to pass along such vital information. That is one thing this Vet of mine does not do. He is not a big communicator. Everything is a wait and see. Regardless, this all seems to working out. I have the vet and I have Pigeon Talk and between the two, Hey Zues us recieving the Best Care possible! So Thanks again! 

I will try to get a photo or two today. I have a bogged down computer and to upload pics usually crashes the whole thing. I am determined to share a photo of Hey Zues so you can all see what a beautiful guy he is! If I should disappear for a day, you will all know why!!!


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Ok, so I picked up the Coccidia treatment at the pharmacy today after my vet visit. It is Bactrim. The doctor was unavailable and the techs told me to go ahead with the Bactrim at .05ml 2 x day. I seem to recall the Vet saying this is a treatment done alone, and not with any other meds. The techs could not find anything written in the charts and thought it would be fine to start the treatment since he is doing so well and since the doc had called it in. I'm hesitant and won't be able to speak to the Vet until after noon tomorrow. Thoughts?


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

cricket,
i dont think it has been mentioned. but part of what you were feeling in the crop could have been the grit itself. it sounds like everything is improving for your little guy. keep up the good work and we will "think" of you two often.

another thought. i have knoticed that birds will scatter the seeds when there are alot in the bowl. i do my best to put just a thin layer in the bowl so there isnt many hidden on the bottom. <just a thought>


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cricket said:


> Ok, so I picked up the Coccidia treatment at the pharmacy today after my vet visit. It is Bactrim. The doctor was unavailable and the techs told me to go ahead with the Bactrim at .05ml 2 x day. I seem to recall the Vet saying this is a treatment done alone, and not with any other meds. The techs could not find anything written in the charts and thought it would be fine to start the treatment since he is doing so well and since the doc had called it in. I'm hesitant and won't be able to speak to the Vet until after noon tomorrow. Thoughts?


Hi Cricket, 

You'll probably see your vet before reading this, but you can also call pharmacy and ask them to check on the compatability issue for Bactrim and Reglan. Hell, you can even call the CDC and ask them, just sound distraught and have a damn good reason why they need to help you immediately!

I see why you would keep your vet, and given their info w/be all in one place, and he's beyond reasonable in his pricing of help for rescues. Funny how things work well for you w/him in one scenario but not the other. His dedication to helping rescues however, is wonderful, and all the more reason to continue w/him. Looking forward to seeing a pic of your pal when you have a chance.

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hi All! So if Hey Zues is eating seeds again and drinking his own water, my guess would be I can cut down on the tube feeding by about half. That would mean I would give him a feeding session in the a.m. with his meds and in the p.m. with his meds. Yes? He is an amazing little guy... I really was not sure if he was going to pull through this last episode. He looks great and is pooping all over the place. It is a bit watery, the poop. Or along with the poop, or something. Regardless, today was a success as far as his eating and drinking on his own. I had a bad day at work and came home to an almost empty seed dish and a half empty water dish. I can't stop smiling.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

You must be thrilled!! Watching the food and water bowl go down on its own, my, my, what will we find excitement in next,lol. But I know exactly what you mean. It can be just so joyful. I would think weaning him of your nutritional support would be a good idea, and since you are there, evaluating the situation,
twice a day sounds good. Just keep on eye on the bowls and poop....that's the next challenge I guess. Are you thru w/the Bactrim and will there be another fecal float to verify re:worms and coccidiosis? I would imagine he is thru w/the Reglan, is this so?

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Cricket! Good going! I am so happy to here that things are improving! You must be feeling like I did when Squidget could stand on his own! I know that feeling and it is great!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey fp, just wanted to say you're so right about the little things that get us excited. I never dreamed I could exclaim and clap my hands over little dabs of poop.

And to Cricket and Denise too - I go to your threads first to check out HeyZues and Squidget. Both of you have done a remarkable job with your babies. You have established bonds with them that will last forever.

Maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket, 


Glad to hear this very good news..!

"Happy Poops!"

The Coccidiosis of course may require sucessive treatments oweingt to the life cycle of the little organisms and it's periodicity and overlapping in the population of them.

Prolly be no harm, and some good, to continue with the ACV Water and even to have some nice Garlic ( did you see the excellent thread by Tressa on this?) to disourage not only the little Coccidae, but also any other opportunists slip streaming behind their mischiefs.

Bon Appetite! to HeyZeuz in their renewed interests in eating!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Yea Hey Zeus!*

Soooo glad to hear Hey Zeus is doing so well! Have been avidly following his progress along with many others!  

General question: I had read(?)/heard(?) that crushed egg shells from hard boiled eggs would be a good source of calcium over wild bird seed for wild birds. WOULD THIS WORK FOR PET PIGEONS TOO, especially if the grit did not contain a lot of calcium???


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

mr squeaks said:


> General question: I had read(?)/heard(?) that crushed egg shells from hard boiled eggs would be a good source of calcium over wild bird seed for wild birds. WOULD THIS WORK FOR PET PIGEONS TOO, especially if the grit did not contain a lot of calcium???


Yes, crushed egg shell works for pet pigeons too. You can also bake the shells of raw eggs to kill any bacteria as well as use the shells of hard boiled eggs.

Terry


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I had actually heard that about egg shells some years back and have always thrown them out under my feeder in the Springtime to keep the Bluejays from attacking other birds nests to eat the eggs for the shells. I can't say if it has helped but I do know that the shells quickly get eaten up. 

Hey Zues is still eating and drinking on his own today! Yeah! thanks for all the care out there. He will be done with the Relan tomorrow morning and will be re-tested for the coccidia etc. next week sometime. His coccidia treatment only began on Tuesday... so it is certainly not gone at this point. He only has a few more doses of the Baytril too. The Strongid is on the 7th. I will keep you all posted on how things progress as they happen. For now, just know that he is a fighter and a survivor! and he did it with all of your help! We both are grateful.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sounds great, Cricket! Excepting, I think you and Hey Zeus deserve most if not all of the credit  

Best,

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Still going strong over here! I have cut the tube feeding out all together as of last evening. We only have a bit left on the Bactrim. His poop will be retested tuesday. We'll take it from there.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

Glad to hear Hey Zeus is getting through all this so well...

Yea Zeus!

Good work there Cricket!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

I am very happy to here Hey Zeus is doing better! Good going!

Denise


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

You've done such a good job w/Hey Zeus. You two have some strong bonds
w/each other, and I'm sure I don't need to tell you that  . Here's hoping you 
have some good follow up tests!!

fp


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I miss all of you... Hey Zues has been doing so well and my dramas have turned towards the teenagers for a spell. But the Pigeon is good! He is strong and excercising in his unfinished loft every day. I bring him out to get a stretch and to flap his wings etc. He is eating drinking and back to grit. He is about finished with the Bactrim and the poop test will be done tomorrow. I brought in some poop on a paper towel and it was not enough or it was too absorbed so I need to bring in some freshies tomorrow. Then we will know if the parasites are gone. I wish the loft was complete, but I let my husband off the hook until spring, since Hey Zues was so ill and I did not want to get more pigeons while he was sick and then decided to start up this new venture in the Spring rather than during the harsh New England Winters. Our loft is only in need of an Aviary and a few shelves and the roof and wall vent. Other than that, we are good to go. Hey Zues will reside in my sunroom for the Winter months. I don't want to chance it with him. He has been through too much already. We have been through too much already. I don't want to be one of those who only checks in during crisis... I do miss all of you! and all of your kind and meaningful messages. I wish you could help me with the teenagers~! LOL! If only...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cricket, it is good to hear Hey Zues is doing well. I think of him often. Thanks for keeping us posted and come back on from time to time.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cricket,

Hey Zeus is so fortunate to have found your family and a loving home. I'm glad to hear that he will be in the sun room for the winter months, having lived through the New England winters, sure can be relentlessly cold. 

Sandwich baggies are great for poo collections....guess you figured that by now, hope all goes well today for Hey Zeus. 

Anyway, don't be a stranger, pop in and add your 2 cents when you have time!

Best,

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*HI Cricket...*

So glad to hear about Hey Zeus! He is on my "list" to check up on whenever I come to the site!  

I sure hope those nasty "bugs" are gone!

"Sorry" to hear about your upcoming weather...we, too have cold, but right now we are in the 80s. Oh, just remembered, possible rain tomorrow and down to 70s! I know, never hit below the "weather belt!"


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hello all! Hey Zues will be kept nice and warm this winter. Come the Springtime, he won't know what hit him! He will be King of the Loft and then we will be getting some bird friends. I sure hope he will accept other birds by then. Anyhow, the fecal float came back with Capallaria still present. The coccidia and the ceal worm were not present. So some good news but that Capallaria! What to do about this one? The vet techs said that they don't want to give him another shot since he got so sick and it was right after his shot that he became so ill. I did not know or think that it was related, but it just might be. I guess the Levosimine(sp) is too strong? I am not sure about the med, but it was Levi something. What have you used that has been successful in treating Capallaria??? without risking health. My vet was unavailable for consultation today. I leave town tomorrow for the weekend. A long overdue escape. I won't be able to speak with the vet myself until Tuesday. In the meantime, Hey Zues is done with meds and being watched by my mother. I don't think Capallaria should be left untreated... I am using the ACV water and the probiotics and a drop of Colloidal Silver here and there. How does one get rid of Capallaria?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, in your case giving Hey, Zeus Levamisol would be part of an overall strategy. The oral form is the one you'd want to use, though, because it would relax the worms so that they'd get swept out without knowing what hit them and wake up on the outside. When the bird's strong enough, you could give it the Ivomec or the Fenbendazole. Those must be given strictly according to the prescribed dosing, especially the latter.

Get the names of what you really have used from your vet and get the exact spelling, the form of the drug, the concentration and the dosing as well as Hey, Zeus!'s weight and we'll see if it's in accordance with our info.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

OK Pidgey... I will go ahead and bring Hey Zues with me on Tuesday so that I can weigh him. I will also write down the medication, dose, and spelling instead of relying on my failing memory. I can remember all of the other meds but this one I have a block on. I do know that it was a shot in the muscle. It was not the Bacrim that I was shooting him with. Anyhow, I am sure the Doctor will be able to speak with me on Tuesday. Hopefully he will have a new plan against these parasites. I like your idea of the oral Levamisol. I do think Hey Zues is strong enough, but I would like to make sure his weight it back up to at least 8 oz.s before messing with him. Thanks for your input.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The normal problem with Levamisol is that it sometimes makes them throw up within a hour or so. As that's the case, they usually try to distract the bird during the critical period with a hand-puppet show or something like that (does Hey, Zeus! like to watch TV?). Levamisol can come in tablet or liquid form. Often, it has a European name like "L-Ripercol." 

If you can't get it, email me with your mailing address and I'll send you some tablets and instructions. You will have to hit him once for about three days running and then wait a few weeks and do it again.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Pidgey, you are so helpful. Hand puppet show? My vet shot him up and sent him home with me. I did not know he would throw up... or that there was a critical period! I just kept him quiet and warm...

I have a tv in my bedroom, I know, I know, bad idea, but we are such busy people, tv is not a family occasion! We watch the weather channel and some shows like, animal planet and Mythbusters. Oh yeah, and a new show on Friday nights called "I shouldn't be alive" OMG! 

Hey Zues has never seen tv, as far as I know. He does however, watch the wild birds at the feeder! Does that count? His other view is of my pet rabbit. They are across the room from one another. He also gets to see my two dogs here and there. The teenagers never check in on him. Too busy with the phone and the computer. 

I will send you my address via private message. I won't know if I can get that med until Tuesday. I really appreciate your help here Pidgey. I will let you know asap. Thanks for everything.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

If Levamisol tablets sometimes make birds throw up, would the med still work if you crushed it and mixed with water? Several of my birds would throw up if given a metronidazole tablet but could keep the dissolved version down. Different med, but just a suggestion. Hope you are able to resolve this and restore Hey Zeus to full health!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think injectibles cause them to throw up, only the oral forms. I usually use the liquid form and follow with water but I suppose you could crush a tablet and give it dissolved in water.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, all...

What do we know about what or which meds are supposed to be given on, or are most effective when given on...an empty Crop? and with no immediate Water?

I seem to remember something mentioned to me about this respecting t he Metridazole, but I may be mistaken - that it was possibly supposed to be given on as empty a crop as reasonably possible, with food and water withheld some hours before and after.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I'm confused... I thought the IM shot was what was the culprit for a vomit session? Not the oral. What?


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Oh, it's possible that the shot the vet gave him was not Levamisol! Does that come in IM shot form? I went back and reread some and I think I understand. The oral form of Levamisol is the recommended option to treat the Capallaria. Regardless of what the vet gave him in the shot. The oral dose may cause the bird to vomit, hence distract Hey Zues with a puppet show or something of that nature in the hopes that he will keep the meds down. I got it. Now it is time for me to go to bed! Goodnight!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...another method of distracting or entertaining them, is to sort-of pretend one is flying...but to have only one's Hands flapping up near one's shoulders, sort of like say, a Sea Horse would swim.

If they are not freightened of one doing such a thing, they will be amused and maybe mildly interested for a little while...or embarassed for us.

One can practice this also, while skipping along at supermarket siles or shopping malls also, just to get the technique down pat for when needed.

People tend to get out of ones way, so one can enjoy the freedom of moveing right along at a good pace with it...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Phil, 
I am going up north to the White Mountains in New Hampshire this weekend. I think this will be the most perfect place for me to try out this new technique of faux flying in the grocery store isles... I actually am looking forward to it! I just know I had better practice this before trying to impress Hey Zues. He is most definatley what one might call a "hard" audience. I am confident that I have the skipping part down... have you ever tried to add sounds? just curious... oh the sounds I can come up with while grooming dogs and cats... A sea horse huh? hmmm...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

pdpbison said:


> One can practice this also, while skipping along at supermarket siles or shopping malls also, just to get the technique down pat for when needed.
> 
> People tend to get out of ones way, so one can enjoy the freedom of moveing right along at a good pace with it...
> 
> ...


Phil, you're killing me here .. ROFL! Do let us know when and where you shop for groceries .. maybe we can get a group discount to come and witness the event and cheer you on!

Terry


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

TAWhatley said:


> Phil, you're killing me here .. ROFL! Do let us know when and where you shop for groceries .. maybe we can get a group discount to come and witness the event and cheer you on!
> 
> Terry


Oh man, count me in!  

Linda


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Count Me three!*

However, maybe best not to make any mention about Phil and pigeons...for - ah - obvious reasons! REALLY ROFL !!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cricket said:


> Phil,
> ... have you ever tried to add sounds? just curious... oh the sounds I can come up with while grooming dogs and cats... A sea horse huh? hmmm...


Actually, if you've got a copy of Mary Martin doing the "I gotta crow" thing, it could get interesting for Hey Zeus real fast.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

The shot that Hey Zues had recieved prior to this bout of illness, was Ivomectin. The dose had been diluted, however, the tech was not able to tell me the mixture. Wed. is the Doctors day off. 

I was not able to bring Hey Zues to work yesterday or today to weigh him. Tomorrow may happen. I can only bring him when my schedule is not too busy and when my dogs aren't the relentless barking sort. 

Hey Zues is in his loft up on a v-perch like a king. He started using the perches yesterday, so he is up and about and using his wings. Eating, drinking and pooping like a champ! I will update more as things progress.

BTW, I skipped down a trail in the White Mountain Forest on Sunday with my hands tucked to my shoulders flapping away like a Sea Horse... until I realized it is Hunting Season and a cold chill ran up my spine. This gesture should only be done in the saftey of ones home or local grocery store! Right Phil?


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