# Recessive red questions



## Creek13 (May 21, 2012)

I want to improve the color quality of my recessive red racing homers. My cock is pretty decent with just a small amount of blue bleeding through. If I mate him to my spread blue/black hen and then mate the hen offspring back to him would this be one way of improving the color? My recessive red hen has a lot of white mottling, how could I eliminate the white? I have not mated these two together because I feel like they would still have the white mottling or the bleed through or both.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Are you sure he is not an ash red?
Spread would help a good recessive red color.
What I don't get is why ash red underneath would be better than blue/black with the washed out wings and tail and all.
In my rec.red magpies (they are spread blue/black plus rec.red) I don't see any blue or black bleeding through.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Some say ash red is best due to the fact that recessive red is generally well expressed in the flights so if you take an ash red T pattern that is showing a good velvet expressioon and put recessive red over it then all the two doses of recessive red have to change are the flights and tail, Which it seems to do well.

I personally prefer the look of a good blue based spread or T pattern recessive red as Henk said.

Some selection is required with both, If you have the room why not try both and let us know, If not, pick your base colour, Lock it in and work to improve that.

As far as the mottling goes, Who knows..... Mottling and recessive red are hard to predict from what I understand


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## Creek13 (May 21, 2012)

I have a very nice t pattern/velvet ash red cock that I could mate to my recessive red hen. Then I could mate the recessive red cock to my spread black hen and then mate the offspring from the two pairs and see how that comes out. Maybe have the best of both?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I would think not, If using ash red base for a recessive red, spread is not desirable as it will basically reverse the affects of the T pattern giving you a washed out light grey base. So, put the ash red to a rec red, Take two young and pair them together. Do the same except with the blue, Keep two families and see which one turns out best.

Edited to add: I would be interested to see the results. I have dabbled in this a little bit through observing other peoples birds but have not done a great amount of recessive red breeding apart from my rollers, The blue base rollers I have are nice dark recessive reds with little to no blue leaking through


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## Creek13 (May 21, 2012)

I had not thought of that, good advice. Thanks!


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Creek13 said:


> I want to improve the color quality of my recessive red racing homers. My cock is pretty decent with just a small amount of blue bleeding through. If I mate him to my spread blue/black hen and then mate the hen offspring back to him would this be one way of improving the color? My recessive red hen has a lot of white mottling, how could I eliminate the white? I have not mated these two together because I feel like they would still have the white mottling or the bleed through or both.


I've worked with rec. red homers extensively and have learned that spread brown t-check rec. reds are the darkest and best red, however, the darkest reds also have soft feather which is why flying racers rarely have good rec. red color. The second best color reds are on a black or spread ash t-check base. The red pigment is washed out when the spread gene is not present.

The mottled effect is very difficult to eliminate when the gene is present. If you don't like mottles then you may want to find yourself a different hen because it will likely overrun you population and the gene can even be hidden in non mottled birds. If your cock bird is from the same stock as your hen then he may carry it also.


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

tmaas said:


> I've worked with rec. red homers extensively and have learned that spread brown t-check rec. reds are the darkest and best red, however, the darkest reds also have soft feather which is why flying racers rarely have good rec. red color. The second best color reds are on a black or spread ash t-check base. The red pigment is washed out when the spread gene is not present.
> 
> The mottled effect is very difficult to eliminate when the gene is present. If you don't like mottles then you may want to find yourself a different hen because it will likely overrun you population and the gene can even be hidden in non mottled birds. If your cock bird is from the same stock as your hen then he may carry it also.


hi tmaas ,

have you ever tried indigo to improve your rec reds ?
if so ,what were the results ?.

thanks ,brian .


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Hi Brian,
I have not tried indigo and rec. red.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

dublin boy said:


> hi tmaas ,
> 
> have you ever tried indigo to improve your rec reds ?
> if so ,what were the results ?.
> ...


The indigo RR combination does not help to get show quality red expression. 

As far as I can remember, the experts say that indigo makes RR bird look 'dirty' (not the gene, just a description) and can interfere with the tail and flights. It can also increase the blue bleed through on blue based unimproved RRs.


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

thanks tmass and rudolph .


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## maricelbill (Sep 13, 2012)

is pencil blue classed as blue bar or blue chq.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

dublin boy said:


> hi tmaas ,
> 
> have you ever tried indigo to improve your rec reds ?
> if so ,what were the results ?.
> ...


 Hi Dublin boy, I have bred indigo to rec red what I get is is a very dark red but the bird looks like a very nice red Indigo with the bluish tail and the flight are plum looking in color. I do feel the is a very striking color and I plan to try and put it into my Amreican show racers. I am not very good with computers and realy have not mastered posting photos, my son will be in tomarrow and maybe he will help me out with some photos and the posting of them.The indigo used must be a red mimic and both the rec red and the indigo must be blue based. .GEORGE


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

Hi George , 
Thanks for the info ,i never thought of a ash red mimic being used, i take it less blue would leak through when using one ? And it would improve/deepen the red on the body and wing shield at least ? . it would be nice to see those photos Of yours if it can be done , they sound nice .


Ps . I'm not great with computers either ,I just about know how to send a pic


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I'm guessing that if you use an ash red mimic, which is actually a homozygous indigo blue, to maintain decent red color in wing sheild, then t-check pattern will also be beneficial.

A homozygous indigo mated to a rec. red w/o indigo will produce all heterozygous indigo, heterozygous rec. red offspring which, when mated together could produce a few **** indigo rec. reds. It wouldn't take very long to produce but I'm not sure that it would be clearly identifiable compared to other rec. reds. It would probably depend upon other modifiers present.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

In case someone is interested, here is a pic if a spread blue, pale dilute, het. indigo, het. rec. red hen that I raised some years ago. Sorry about the poor pic.


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

She's a Beaut tmass , real nice . I've never had pale in my lofts , but I have the potential to breed some dilute blue indigos with some pairings this year .


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Here's a dilute blue homozygous indigo. Ash yellow mimic.


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