# science fair project hatched



## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Good morning,

I woke up this morning to my daughter's science project hatching. She had placed 4 pigeon eggs (she got them from her grandfather's coup) in a make shift incubator. He explained that they maynot be fertilizied and so may never hatch. Well that was not the case and one has hatched. Having spent the morning on the internet as well as talking with our local agway people, we have managed to give the baby it's first feeding. But it was of a thin formula and pedialyte. (It was very early this morning) So now we are flooded with questions and have to find a better source of food. Help!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where, basically, are you? You need something like Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula and you need it VERY quickly. It can be found in pet stores that carry supplies for birds. Big chains like Petsmart will usually have it.

Pidgey


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

I am in upstate NY and have been waiting for the pet stores to open. Any guidance would be appreciated


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This is the product. It's not the only one but it's probably the most quickly found in your area:

http://shop.petsmart.com/product-123/2534374302023691/2534374302025468/845524441776635.htm

There are mixing instructions in the package and you really need to follow them.

Pidgey


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

My daughter is feeding her using a dixie cup with a hole in it 1/3 of the way up the cup. We were concerned using the syringe at first, can we continue using the cup method? Is there an easier way?


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

I will order now, but will also try our local pet store to get something today. We have the baby in a small container with hay and soft cotton and is at about 92 degrees, is there something else we should be doing besides getting the correct food?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it needs a thin slurry of the right kind of food pretty quickly. I wouldn't try to order online--I'd be trying to find someplace accessible that carries the stuff. There are folks who have developed formulas of their own but they're kinda' complex. If you're in the sticks and don't have a place like that accessible, then I suppose you can order it with next-day-air delivery but that's kinda' expensive. You don't have a lotta' time, though.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The environment sounds okay, though.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It is a real toughy trying to raise hatchlings from birth. 

Here is info on handfeeding and recipy for new hatched babies. the Mac Milk recipy is best for newbies.

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Recipes/handfeedingrecipesinfo.htm


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

mmmhsp22 said:


> I will order now, but will also try our local pet store to get something today. We have the baby in a small container with hay and soft cotton and is at about 92 degrees, is there something else we should be doing besides getting the correct food?


How about letting the parents or step set of parents raise them,or another set of pigeon parents with a newborn Pigeon milk is crucial for newborns?


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

I just spoke with the local pet store and they have a hand feeding formula, so I am off to the stores. I know this will be difficult but my daughter is 14 and loves all animals so we are going to try. I am still concerned with feeding methods, but the baby is pooping so this must be a good sign. The baby is 4 hours old. Her grandfather is going to stop over later this evening but he has all adult pigeons and I don't think a mother will take it now? Will they? I will be back online in a hour or so, long way to the store. Thanks for your help


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

mmmhsp22 said:


> The baby is 4 hours old. Her grandfather is going to stop over later this evening but he has all adult pigeons and I don't think a mother will take it now? Will they? I will be back online in a hour or so, long way to the store. Thanks for your help



Any pigeon couple with a new born, or egg just about to hatch will most likely take on another baby, and most important...have a supply of pigeon milk to feed it. If they have one baby that would be fine to add one more, but you could still give it to a couple with 2 newborns, just for some time, till baby gets a few days of pigeon milk. Then I would keep an eye out as 3 babies might get to be too much, and then supplemental feedings may be required.


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

There are no mothers in my fathers coup, none that are going to hatch but I will ask. We will keep on with feedings, we are going to the store for the correct food. Thanks


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## Jiggs (Apr 1, 2005)

I have not raised a hatchling yet - but people have - be positive that is all I can help you with.

One thing I do know is that they need fluid so when you mix make sure it is really nice and runny!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This member (rallow) raised one from the egg quite successfully:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13269

Pidgey


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks for the courage. We have the right food now so there's hope. I will keep everyone updated. Thanks again


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

I am still having a problem with the feeding, the pet store gave me a bulb syringe however I am reluctant to put it in the hatchlings beak, could it just suck it out? Or do I have to put it in it's beak? How do you know if you are doing it correctly?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I used a syringe to feed my two babies.

Check out this link on various methods to feed young squabs


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

Also, the link I provided earlier has excellent info and hand feeding.


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

The information and the picture made a big difference with the feeding. My daughter is going to add your web site as part of her sources for her project. This whole day has been a great learning experience, I just want to express my appreciation to everyone for their responses today, they were invaluable. My daughter named her hatchling, Miracle. fiting.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mmm,


The little 'Dixie Cup' with the small hole in the lower side is likely a much safer method for many reasons, than any sort of 'syringe' will be...

The hollow side of a regular rubber people-baby Nipple is a more convenient means for feeding them, for letting them 'eat' for inserting their Beak into the formula filled hollow...and this is the method I have always used for them.

When they are very very little, I cut off just the 5/8ths of an inch or so 'end' of the Nipple and use that instead of the whole Nipple, as it suits thsir scale and Beak size better.



Make sure the food is "warm"...and to do so, warm it in a Teacup or something small and ceramic, in a pan of Hot Water...do not microwave it...

The formula should be about your own wrist's underside temperature, so it feels neither not nor cold, neither warm or cool to your wrist there.

Make new formula each day, and refridgerate covered, whatever is made-up between re-warms and discard at the end of the day. Formula MUST be very thoroughly and homogeniously mixed with no thicker areas or lumps...and, is best if made on the thin side, or about like a Milkshake would be thereabouts.

The Baby must be kept warm, and if it gets chilled or torpid for any reason, do not feed untill it is warm and active again.

Baby needs to be around 100 degrees or so, and no drafts...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Anarrowescape (Jan 6, 2004)

you also need to put like a water in a small wish but keep it away from the baby this is just to mae sure the skin does not dry up and start problems


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Dear Phil,

Thanks for the tips, I have searched to find a way to let the hatchling eat how it wants to. I found a hollow rubber cone and put it on the end of the syringe and held it side ways to be level with the beak. It is alittle messy but my daughter read that the baby could drown and gets upset when the hatchling bubbles the formula out of it's nose. This was happening when we were using the bulb. Staying level seems to let the baby feed at his own rate. We can try the dixie cup agan next feeding. It took about 5-6 ml, this passed feeding, do we have to feed thru the night? The baby is around 11 hours old and has had 4 feedings, the first two only 2-3 ml's got in, what do you suggest? We have the baby at around 92 degrees using a heat lamp, we could make it warmer. The baby seems to quiet down right after feeding and then in a few hours starts chirping and then we feed it, this in our opinion is a good sign. Thanks again for the life line today, it has really helped.

mmm in NY


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Robert 

I read sometime earlier today about a wet towel for humidity, would a small dish of water be better?

mmm


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moisture will help but right now I would mainly be concerned with keeping him warm and fed and hydrated. Like Robert said don't put a bowl of water where the baby could tumble into it.

We've raised several newborns and actually use 2 containers for it. We use a larger, plastic container that has a soft towel on the bottom and then a margarine container that has shredded tissue about 3/4 full with 2-3 full sized tissues on top of that. Place the baby in the small container and put it in the larger one. You have probably realized that they try to be neat and poop over the side of any container. Sometimes they also tumble out so the towel on the bottom of the larger container will protect them. Be sure to change their bedding frequently to keep them clean and from getting chilled from touching their poop. We usually put a couple of tissues loosely on top of the baby to help keep the heat in. Hopefully, you're using a heating pad so the couple of tissues should be enough "cover".

Personally, we don't feed during the night. Usually feed around 10:00 pm and again around 6:00 am. If you're using Kaytee hand feeding formula, make it thinner than they describe at least for several days to make sure his crop doesn't get impacted. His crop should be soft and squishy and it should be empty before feeding again. Just pay attention to the crop and you should be ok.

Good luck
Maggie


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Maggie,

We have been watching the crop and it is still squishy so far. We will feed the baby one last time before bed and then first thing in the morning. Right now is is in just one small container, we will look for a bigger one tomorrow to set it in. Thanks for the advice. 

mmm


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mmm,


There is a lot to this overall, so, posts in bite-sized-info amounts are not a bad idea...

Maggie's mentions are wise...

Babys are innately disposed to poop over the side of whatever they take to be their Nest.



My own method for careing for Pigeon or Dove Babys is as follows -

I use an electric Heating Pad, and I set it into a roughly one foot by one foot by one foot cardboard box, with it's 'flaps' intact, and with the Box on it's "side".

The electric Heating Pad then goes into what then is the 'bottom' of the Box-on-it's-side, and, the Heating Pad has a towell over it and extending out over the flat flap of the bottom, to make a sort of porch.

On this Towell which covers the Heating Pad, I have some sort of low flat bottomed or shallow Bowl which will allow the heat of the Heating pad to come up into it, and, in the shallow Bowl or small Cake Pan or even a one inch high smaller-size-box bottom eleccted and cut to the purpose, I have some soft rumpled cloths like tee-shirt material...this then is the "Nest" proper.

The Box on it's side, has then three 'flaps' remaining and these I let be so they are at a slight angle, or so the top on eis anyway, and over this open side then, I drape a light cloth or shirt. And for actual "Babys" I drape it so I have to open it to take them out for feed times, and then I put them back in and enclose them once again with the front drape. This helps keep the inside warm and humis enough.

Once the Baby is older, a Shirt works well for this drape over the open side, where one has it so the collar makes a sort of little doorway for the youngster to come trundleing out through on their own steam for chow times, and, for them to enter back in through it on their own power, when done.

The setting the Heating Pad should have, is whatever will make the actual inside Nest be about 100 degrees thereabouts.

Damp small cloths may be set in a low way around the Nest to aid in humidifying the inside of this arrangement.



Heat Lamps, in my view of them anyway, have too many liabilities, and will dry the Baby out also.


More info next if you want iit on what to feed and how to feed, aside from the K-T or in addition to it.

Some rough views of what I term "The Squeaker Warm House" may be found via the following link -

http://community.webshots.com/album/512124277uXlSSR

This arrangement may be made on say a Dresser Top or Table top.

The Baby will not leave it or tumble out or off, and the young Bird will not in fact tend to leave the set-up and it's "porch" area or whatever else there is of a contiguous horizontal area, untill they begin to fly, or in explores preceeding imminently their beginning to fly.

So, there is no reason, as many insist to do, to oblige the Baby or youngster to be 'in' anything to constrain them...since, they are innately disposed to stay "put" in or very near what they recognise as their Nest.


Anyway, only the first three images are of import here, and show a rather extempore version of the 'Squeaker Warm House' arrangement.

The other images show a very ancient Pigeon who had passed away, and at that time I was out of room on my 'webshots' so I combined his images there with those of the Heated Nest Box arrange.

Best wishes...!

Phil

Las Vegas


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Dear Phil,

Well it is day 2 for us and so far so good. Miracle is eating about 8-9ml each feeding and is chirping away when I have come in to do her feedings. I have been concerned about the light for many reasons and I will be getting a heating pad and boxes tomorrow to make a better home, till then we have placed a damp towel on the side of the bowl not touching the old tee shirt pieces we are using as nest material. Maggie's suggestion of placing tissues over Miracle worked well last night, but I noticed the temperature was only 89degrees this morning, I was too worried about the combustibility of the tissue with the light. Just to be clear on feeding, I am just to give Miracle the formula now, watching her crop to judge when we should increase her amounts. The consistency of the formula is mostly runny and it will increase in texture as she gets older. Is there anything else we should be doing? I thank you for all your input, it has been a blessing to find such great help, I don't think we could have made it through yesterday without this site. 

Thanks again
mmm


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mmm,


Glad to hear...

Chow-wise, I prefer to combine a Commercial powder 'formula' with other ingredients...and, of course, I prefer to feed them in the hollow of the little Baby Nipple.

These practices are safer for them, allow better nutrition, better texture of the food itself, allow a graduated continuity to them learning to eat and peck Seeds later, and alleviate most of the mess...and, remove all of the dangers associated with 'tubes' and injuries from them, as well as to diminish down to zero the probability of Yeast and Candida infections which are a frequent complaint of tube and syringe feeding methods.

Happy to explain menu details and other details if you like.

Make the inside of the actual Nest itself, adjust the Heating Pad setting and or the number of cloths layed on it, so the inside of the Nest itself is 'warm' when your wrist is pressed into it for 30 seconds or so, so it feels 'warm' like a fevered child's forehead..."that" then will be the nice temperature for the little Peeper...which will be about 102 or so Farenheit.

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Dear Phil, 

I would like to know what else we can mix into the formula, it just seems so thin. My step father says he used to chop up a hard bowled egg and ground seed, but it seems really early for that. Miracle took 13 ml last night and 15ml this morning, she is fiesty just before feeding and then goes right to sleep after. Today we are making a better home with the heating pad that you told me about yesterday, anything else you can think of for us to keep watch for, just let us know.

mmm


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did you read the instructions for mixing in the container? It shows mixing ratios for a few different age brackets. Also, as far as nutrition goes, the instructions say not to mix anything else with it as that will probably detract from the nutritive value. 

Now, everyone's going to have their own personal preferences and so a question like that can turn into an engaging debate that sometimes increases to a livid argument (it has before). The fact is, though, that there are quite a few pigeons "out there" who've been raised to a perfectly normal adulthood on that very stuff alone.

Sometimes you don't perceive them to be growing very well because you're checking on them 5,372 times a day and it's like watching water-based paint dry on a 110% humidity day. The desire to hurry the process can end up becoming a problem. For instance, you can overfeed and then the chick ends up with sour crop (slow crop; crop stasis) and then you've REALLY got a problem. So, calm down, take a moment and just cuddle the piji--they'll never get enough of that at this stage.

Pidgey


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## mmmhsp22 (Mar 29, 2006)

Pidgey,

You are right that the container says to stick to the formula alone, just changing the protein content as the baby gets older. At 3 days old, I am impressed that my daughter has the feedings going as well as they are, we are novices and just want to do what is best for Miracle. It is so cute to hear the peeping in the morning. Thanks for your post.

mmm


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How's the baby doing now?

Pidgey


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