# Higher Than Normal Losses?



## learning (May 19, 2006)

Hi Folks,

I am the race secretary for a new club here in the Atlanta area and I need some information from all of the racers out there. 

We have experienced some extremely high losses during this year's young bird series. On the average it is probably in the 65-70% range. I know that this is extremely high. We have had several flyers that had to drop out of the series simply because they didn't have enough birds to continue. These are all experienced flyers here as opposed to a bunch of newbies that would naturally make a lot of mistakes. These guys say they have never experienced losses like this.

The course is not particullarly difficult. It is a northwest course going out past Nashville into Kentucky. We have seen some headwinds but nothing extreme. There are a few "mountains" if you want to call them that. They amount to about 3-4000 feet in height. I wouldn't think that this would be a big issue (considering the guys in the west are flying over the Rockies that are around 15,000 feet).

Is anyone else out there seeing the same tendencies this year? If so, what do you think might be causing it? By the way, our longest race has been just 270 miles so it isn't like they have been pushed to 350 or 400 miles. We are stumped.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI DAN,I feel that there many reasons or factors that lead to high losses.I do believe that it all starts in the breeding loft,and good record keeping.Health of the birds is still an other factor.Today the modern flyer keeps sick birds alive with antibiotics. The use of antibiotics has lead to birds that have a weakend immune system 50,75,and 100years ago these sick birds were put down.Only the birds that had good immune systems were kept.The birds of today with weak immune systems are sent to races the stress of shipping and racing are just to much for these birds and they are in crates with other peoples birds that may infact be carrying sickness.Many have pick up a virus when these birds come home they are put on a two day antibiotic program which does not kill the virus but does kill the good gut bacteria thus leading to weaking the birds immune system even more. These birds are then sent to the next race in a weaken condition only to be stress out even more many of these birds fail to return.I feel that there other reasons for poor returns on race day What I say here is one of the many,some of which I will bring up later.I put this out for people to chew on and think about. .GEORGE


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, Dan..........join the club............seems to be going around this year. Although, it seems EVERY year, the "old guys" (I mean the ones who've been doing this longer than me) say, they've never seen looses like this before.........I've been hearing that ever since I started racing. I certainly don't have the answers for the high losses, but I know it's happening everywhere. We've sure had our share this year and are only into the 5th week. Although, I think George has a somewhat valid point, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that EVERYBODY's birds are sick or will get sick because of someone elses birds being sick, so they will loose them. I don't have the answer and neither does anyone else. I think there's way more going on than just "untrained birds" or "sick birds"...........I would love to be able to take a group of fanciers, all of them train the same, feed the same, medicate the same,then go through a race season and see what happens and follow those few fanciers birds and results. I've been asked to look into the Atlanta clubs and see where they are racing from, as some of our guys seem to think our birds are hitting other groups of birds. I haven't done that yet. We're flying from the South this year, so I don't THINK the birds are crossing paths, but don't know for sure. Will be interesting to hear some theories on what people think is happening.


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## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

I don't know if anyone here is a HAM radio operator or pays any attention to the cyclical nature of sunspots and how they affect the ionosphere, But I can tell you that as far as radio propogation goes we're in a low point of the 11 year cycle









From what I understand, pigeons to a degree use the magnetic field of the earth in order to get their bearings, so it seems at least possible if not likely that this may have something to do with it. What were the losses like 7 - 15 years ago during the last low point in the cycle? I wasn't flying back then and wouldn't know where to begin to find out. Anybody on here flying back then can tell us? This may be WAY over complicating this but as Renee' said, there's no way that EVERYONE has bad birds or hasn't trained the way they should or has sick birds. For me I think it's been a combination of my lack of time to devote to training and inexperience, coupled with the fact that I was dumb enough to think that my birds would make it home from a 200 mile race with a 15 mph. wind in their faces.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

*Bird losses unexplained*

I have been talking to flyers all across the US and this year has been very rough on losses. I do not agree with the health issues as I personally lost 28 birds in a smash  (the day was blue sky and sunny!!!!!) The birds that were lost were 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc place winners in prior races at club level and were 4th 6th and 8th thru 21st at combine level against 1400 birds. If they were substandard birds they would have not done so well. I check all my birds for health, feathering, and make sure they are in top form prior to sending and they dont go if all is not well. We have had enormous losses this year and no one can explain. I just spoke with 2 of the handlers at the AU convention race and they both said they have lost 50 to 70% of the birds sent in to this years race and other handlers have the same problem. I also spoke with Deonne at the AU in regards to this and she says they are getting reports but with no set pattern they can attribute anything to. 
Ken


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Well i am not saying that its just sickness I do feel that is one of many reasons. Renee you point out that different clubs/combines fly in different directions out here we have one combine that flys east to west while we fly north to south there is a point where their paths cross about 50 to 70 miles away for our birds and 30 to 40 miles for those on the east west course.However this does not happen on every race but does happen from time to time. Some of these birds will come down on lofts in the other combine/club these birds may spook the birds from that loft causing poor traping guess what that bird is a goner this something that is not talked about but does happed.There are guys that fly rollers or hi flyers on the days that we race I am sure that when a group of race birds flys into a group of hi flyers or rollers i am sure that we have some unhappy people and if they should trap in one ofour racers need i say more, we don't realy lose many to these people but we do lose some.Now I will tell you about an something that happend to me years ago while out on a training toss.about20 miles out there is a mountain ORTGA MT, 3000 + feet my friend BOB and I were releasing our birds when a two guys pulled in and got out Bob went over to talk to them i had a crate to release, BOB called to me come here George and see the hawk that this guy has.I went over took a look and struke up a conversation with the other guy who asked what combine I flew withI told him San Diego. He then said your the bunch that flys up the 395 hiway and named some of the race stations.Now I ask YOU why would a FALCONER know our race stations what better target then our race birds.I am sure that these guys are in the area where our birds are released maybe 5 miles down the road who knows how many falconers may be doing this to have a hawk or falcon attack our birds soon after release would break up our birds and scatter them.I know that all these things seem little but add up all these are this can lead to losses again I want to point its many things that accure during the race that lead to losses and we have not even talked about the weather wind and heat. GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

roxtar said:


> I don't know if anyone here is a HAM radio operator or pays any attention to the cyclical nature of sunspots and how they affect the ionosphere, But I can tell you that as far as radio propogation goes we're in a low point of the 11 year cycle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 HI ROXTAR, I am glad that you brought up the sun spot thing. Have you heard of HAARP a goverment project to artificiality recreate sun spot conditions in order to study the effects on communications have been conducted over the last decade or two could this be yet another piece of the puzzle. Just another thing to look in to. If anyone wants to know more on this HARRP thing go to google and type in HARRP check it out and see what you think. .GEORGE


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

whitesnmore said:


> I have been talking to flyers all across the US and this year has been very rough on losses. I do not agree with the health issues as I personally lost 28 birds in a smash  *(the day was blue sky and sunny!!!!!) *The birds that were lost were 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc place winners in prior races at club level and were 4th 6th and 8th thru 21st at combine level against 1400 birds. If they were substandard birds they would have not done so well. I check all my birds for health, feathering, and make sure they are in top form prior to sending and they dont go if all is not well. We have had enormous losses this year and no one can explain. I just spoke with 2 of the handlers at the AU convention race and they both said they have lost 50 to 70% of the birds sent in to this years race and other handlers have the same problem. I also spoke with Deonne at the AU in regards to this and she says they are getting reports but with no set pattern they can attribute anything to.
> Ken


We've all heard the term "blue bird day"??? I've never met a pigeon flyer that didn't think that a totally blue, cloudless day was one of the worst days to race birds............something about the clouds being needed to break up the sun rays?


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## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

> something about the clouds being needed to break up the sun rays?


UV light is visible to pigeons, it's also affected by sun spots. 



> Although sunspots themselves produce only minor effects on solar emissions, the magnetic activity that accompanies the sunspots can produce dramatic changes in the ultraviolet and soft x-ray emission levels.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Reason for YB losses....*

I don't really have anything new to add which has not already been discussed. Here are a few thoughts which may or may not offer some clues as to what may be going on.

First of all, since no one really knows exactly how these birds find their way home in the first place, it is difficult to really know what may be interfereing with their homing ability. Since we only have a few clues as to what and how they might be finding their way home, how could we ever really know what might be causing the losses ?  

The other issue, is to the best of my knowledge, there has never been any sort of record on any type of scale, of the birds entered and then lost in a race. Fanciers have been complaining since I was a kid about the large numbers of losses. So was this year, really worse then 1998, or 1988, or 1978, or 1968, or etc. etc. How can we really measure this thing, other then old guys saying this is the worst I can remember ? Not a very scientific measurement......for all we know this could be running in 7 or 14 year cycles, just like the other graph posted.

We could discuss or debate this till the cows come home...if the pigeons don't...and still not be any closer to a solution. We could blame some "Invisable" man who is somehow messing us up...the truck driver, the course, the sun spots, cell phones, K factor, hunters, hawks, sick birds, etc. etc. etc.

I offer that the solution may very well be within the pigeons themselves. If there is some enviromental change which are affecting the homing ability of our racing pigeons, at least some of these pigeons have been affected less then the pigeons which were lost. This is where the solution may be found, and that is the breeding of pigeons which are less affected by today's enviromental conditions. Mother Nature is going to do that for us anyway, but that could take a much longer time. I humbly suggest that the typical pigeon entered in the YB races today, may not really be any better then the YB's which were produced from the Champion 500 & 600 mile day birds that my orginal mentor raised back in the 1960's. There were no medications used back then, if the birds got sick, which was very rare, they either recovered or died. 

If I am incorrect, and birds can not be bred which can overcome today's enviroment, then the racing sport is really on it's last legs...if the birds can't find their way home, there soon won't be any homing pigeons to race with...... 

It's also possible that we have to reevaluate what a *real* winner is. Is it that bird who pops up unexpectly and wins a single race when the wind is just right ? Or is it the bird which is in the clock 9 times out of 9 races and always in decent time, but never gets any real attention ?

I for one, may not have the solution, but I am not simply going to shrug my shoulders and simply do what I have always done. I am going to find the solution and I believe it is right outside in the breeding loft !


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## bjanzen (Sep 15, 2007)

learning said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am the race secretary for a new club here in the Atlanta area and I need some information from all of the racers out there.
> 
> ...


Dan,

Are you the Atlanta group that brings your birds up to the Chattanooga club trailer on Friday night? I know Alvin that drives that trailer and he has only lost about 6 birds during the season. He lost 18 early on but he thinks he pushed them too quick in training. 

Barry


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Barry,

We are that club. All the guys down here are getting decimated this year. Two guys have had to drop out all together. Very odd.

Dan


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## bjanzen (Sep 15, 2007)

learning said:


> Barry,
> 
> We are that club. All the guys down here are getting decimated this year. Two guys have had to drop out all together. Very odd.
> 
> Dan


Dan,

I will talk to Alvin and see what he thinks. Maybe you should call him and ask his advice. 

Barry


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Well, from the sound of it, seems like this is pretty pervasive around the country. Perhaps it is just one of those years. Personally I am of the opinion that the answer is probably in the breeding loft as Warren suggested. We will see how the rest of the season goes.

Dan


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## bjanzen (Sep 15, 2007)

Dan,

I know that I am new, but I still have the ability to brainstorm and just wanted to see if we could eliminate some of the variables. If others in the same "wagon" are combined with your birds and go the same course, maybe we could eliminate some of the variables that way. I know there are never hard and true facts. I used to breed angelfish and I spent four years figuring out what went wrong when I lost batch after batch of eggs. 

Just hope I helped a little.

Barry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Well, from the sound of it, seems like this is pretty pervasive around the country. Perhaps it is just one of those years. Personally I am of the opinion that the answer is probably in the breeding loft as Warren suggested. We will see how the rest of the season goes.
> 
> Dan


Dan,

My loft manager and principal trainer has had pigeons for over fifty years. When I mentioned to him the other day the various lost bird reports which are being talked about around the country, his view is that things are pretty much "normal"..........the trend for several decades has been for guys to raise about a hundred+ birds in order to have forty+ birds or so by race time, and then some percentage of those get lost as the races progress.

Today we are having our longest race, which for me is 336 miles from Marion, Va. This has always been a killer release point, as in the "Race from Hell" when in 2004 the race took four days and the combine secretary took a survey and found that over a thousand birds never returned home. You would think that the release site would be moved to the East side of those Blue Ridge Mts., but it has yet to happen.

In 2003 I started the race season with 14 birds, and flew every race and always had birds in "The Clock" and ended the season with 13 birds. I worked with a small quality team, and held them back if they were not in condition. Why did unknown factors cause my club and combine members to lose such a big percentage of birds, when I did not ? The only explanation I can think of, was they had a "Mob" mentality, of simply throwing 20 birds into a race, and not really caring if they lost a bunch, because they had bunches more. I on the other hand, needed to assess each bird very carefully, because I could not afford to lose a single one. 

In recent races, I could simply look at many of the birds that guys were entering, and could tell they would never be seen again, and sure enough....the owner would be surprized that he lost "so many"....... so many times there are birds lost, which are simply not up to the task at hand. Then, more often then not, the owner will look to some external factor as the cause for his or her losses. 

In spite of what may or may not be contributing to YB losses, the biggest factor I think, still lies with the loft, loft management, the handler, and the quality of his birds. And not with some "Invisable" factor that is somehow messing the birds up. 

The main reason why I think this is true, is the same fanciers week after week, still manage to get their birds home in groups on race day, and take the diplomas. If there was some "Invisable Hand" like cell phones, etc. which is messing the birds up....then there would be no consistant winners, it would be random. The reaction that a lot of fanciers have when someone is beating them week, after week...is "They must be cheating"........some things never change......


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

george simon said:


> HI DAN,I feel that there many reasons or factors that lead to high losses.I do believe that it all starts in the breeding loft,and good record keeping.Health of the birds is still an other factor.Today the modern flyer keeps sick birds alive with antibiotics. The use of antibiotics has lead to birds that have a weakend immune system 50,75,and 100years ago these sick birds were put down.Only the birds that had good immune systems were kept.The birds of today with weak immune systems are sent to races the stress of shipping and racing are just to much for these birds and they are in crates with other peoples birds that may infact be carrying sickness.Many have pick up a virus when these birds come home they are put on a two day antibiotic program which does not kill the virus but does kill the good gut bacteria thus leading to weaking the birds immune system even more. These birds are then sent to the next race in a weaken condition only to be stress out even more many of these birds fail to return.I feel that there other reasons for poor returns on race day What I say here is one of the many,some of which I will bring up later.I put this out for people to chew on and think about. .GEORGE


 I just thought that I should run this post once more. GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Just say No to Drugs !*



george simon said:


> HI DAN,I feel that there many reasons or factors that lead to high losses.I do believe that it all starts in the breeding loft,and good record keeping.Health of the birds is still an other factor.Today the modern flyer keeps sick birds alive with antibiotics. The use of antibiotics has lead to birds that have a weakend immune system 50,75,and 100years ago these sick birds were put down.Only the birds that had good immune systems were kept.The birds of today with weak immune systems are sent to races the stress of shipping and racing are just to much for these birds and they are in crates with other peoples birds that may infact be carrying sickness.Many have pick up a virus when these birds come home they are put on a two day antibiotic program which does not kill the virus but does kill the good gut bacteria thus leading to weaking the birds immune system even more. These birds are then sent to the next race in a weaken condition only to be stress out even more many of these birds fail to return.I feel that there other reasons for poor returns on race day What I say here is one of the many,some of which I will bring up later.I put this out for people to chew on and think about. .GEORGE


Just so you know George....I agree with you 100%.....as they use to say....the chickens are coming home to roost. There is a reason why human antibotics are sold by Rx, and perhaps we all would have been better off, if this genie would never had been left out of the bottle. Now, in spite of more drugs used then ever before, the birds are sicker then ever before. 

It's not rocket science, a 1st year biology student should know exactly what has happened. When they came out with stuff such as 4 in 1 (four antibotics mixed together) the hand writing was on the wall....when they came out with 10 in 1, I knew that the end of the road was not to far off......and that breeding pigeons with a superior immune system was something that went out years ago, but is my top priorty. 

What good is a winner, if he has to be constantly given drugs in order to stay healthy ?  I was told that if I didn't medicate, I could never win any races....those guys are now medicating more then ever...and complaining that their birds are sick. I am using less medications then I ever did, and the birds are maintaining great health, better then ever....as I said before, this is not rocket science George, but it will remain a great mystery to many. Thanks for your post, and forgive me for preaching to the choir....


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Just some thoughts. Now that we are well into the youngbird season, I am plugging my numbers and looking at the results. I am finding a trend. Birds from my winning pairs are winning, birds from my trial pairs are not fairing as well. And I am seeing a few new pairs producing quality birds. Out of 75 birds about 15 have been lost. 
I tend to migrate toward the thinking that it is in the breeding loft, the medicine chest and the methods. I have read much about resperatory issues and the like. Hard to detect yet hard on the birds. If your tested pairs are loosing youngsters look to health or trainning. 
Something else has made me think a bit. My "pedigree pair" has lost all four birds that I have racing. Their offspring's offspring are not fairing very well also. One bird won a 120 mile race then was lost in the next race. I do not think I will blame sun spots. I put 8 birds in a five race series over 1000 miles. I lost 3 birds. Two were from the "pedigree pair's" family. I put this family in 3 futurities and not a one came home. Same feed, same trainning, same loft, same races as my returning birds. 
It does not take long to figure it out as long as you do not use excuses. It all goes back to the fliers vs homers debate. A bird flying 2000ypm in the wrong direction is of no use to anyone. When some birds come home and others do not it is the birds. Factor out a hawk here and a power line there, and what you have left after a long hard season, breed from. If you breed from pairs with pretty pedigrees that do not produce good youngsters, prepare to loose birds.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I was talking to a fancier who is flying my birds. He said my birds are kicking the pants off of his birds in the races. We are also finding that I am loosing half of my birds where as he is loosing very few. He starts young birds with 100 birds and has 80 at the end of the season whreas out of the 10 birds he flew for me only 4 were left. They won as many races, but still had large percentage losses. 
We came to the conclusion that my birds are a 3 year old family of quality birds crossed together. His birds are an established 30 year old family with a cross here and there. The lost genetics has been selected out of his birds. After 30 years he has bred a family of birds that come home. My birds are faster, but his are more reliable. 
I am looking long and hard for a family of fast and reliable birds to cross into what I have produced. My birds have similar lineage, but it is not pure for genetic reliability outside of a pair or two.
Just thought it might be something to look at as far as losses go. Are the old families of birds getting lost also or is it just the mutts? 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> ....... Are the old families of birds getting lost also or is it just the mutts?
> 
> Randy


Randy,

You have been making some very thought provoking posts which cause one to think now and then, and that is good, and makes these pages worth reading.

I haven't stirred up the pot in awhile so let me answer your question with this, "Good birds don't get lost"


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Randy,
> 
> You have been making some very thought provoking posts which cause one to think now and then, and that is good, and makes these pages worth reading.
> 
> I haven't stirred up the pot in awhile so let me answer your question with this, "Good birds don't get lost"


Yes good birds get lost or something like tha. It happens every year. Was the bird fit for the race Maybe maybe not. THEY do not just get lost but do fail to return. Where weaker birds are thge lost birds. Take 100 birds raised. figure if lucky 5 top birds 15 to 20 useable birds 75 are lesser birds that fail the quality level of the loft. Expect those birds as slower returns lost birds and birds that one should not keep after the season. Breeding from those lesser birds, gives chance maybe a good bird now and then but often birds that are that caliber. Which is ok but not great. In the sky many things can go on Mutts as been said are not mutts if bred for performance. ALL strain started with out cross lines that were selective bred. A racing homer at first glance no matter the strain looks most near alike. IT by its self is a set breed patrren in todays time. The art of breeding is in the minds eye on development of the selected performance need. Having that desire to breed top birds comes with the idea that the lesser birds must not be kept. 1 good bird will out race out breed and be a boost to the loft ,over 10 20 just ok birds any day. Top breeders keep there best Be aware some sell the rest. Now those that sell just those 15 20 that are the useablke birds Now that my friends are the ones that help the sport the best.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> ......Yes good birds get lost or something like tha. It happens every year. Was the bird fit for the race Maybe maybe not......



Re Lee,

I am making a very fine point here, which could be over looked. Good birds may not make it back home, because of wires, hawks, were sick, or otherwise become disabled. But they *don't get lost*....as in they can't figure out which way home is....it is a very fine point, which can not be proven I suppose one way or the other, and may not be worth the print space I am taking. I could also say if the bird is not in condition, or is sick, then the bird is not a "good" bird.....

You are correct of course, in that what we are really seeking is that rare "good" bird which you may get 5 out of a hundred birds raised if you have pretty good stock birds.....what you build a loft around is that 1 in a 1000 or 1 in 10,000...the so called "Super Bird" which may in fact be 1 in many, many thousands. 

When 60 out of 100 birds are lost by normal races or training flights....they normally are not the "good" birds...they are the average, typical...to below average birds. If you are breeding from these types of birds...don't expect to then produce dozens of good and great birds...not going to happen. Which is why experienced breeders will advise to start with the best stock you can...because you may have to produce 1,000 typical..average racers in order to build a dozen or so good breeding pairs from. Real champion "good" birds are very rare indeed....and you can be sure that they were not lost off the landing board or a 100 mile race.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think some times we are detrimental to our breeding by introducing birds that we have spent great money on or value too much due to pedigree. We breed over and over from these birds because of the value we put on them. Not because they produce winners. If you spend 10k on a bird or 100, if you think that is a lot to spend on a bird, you will be more likely to keep breeding from the bird. You would almost be better off to give say ganus 5k for a handful of birds with no pedigrees. All in their own right good blood. Then breed by the basket. You must be willing to part with these birds if they do not produce. I think a guy with 100 birds can keep his 10 top birds and start over and be more successful. I think if you are not willing to stop breeding unsuccessful birds or not willing to get rid of bad fliers, that you will not be at the top of the race sheet. This is very hard to do. My birds from my lesser pairs are still of use to me. I can watch them fly around my loft and enjoy watching them. I can also give them away to my competitors. This to can keep you on top.

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I think some times we are detrimental to our breeding by introducing birds that we have spent great money on or value too much due to pedigree. We breed over and over from these birds because of the value we put on them. Not because they produce winners. If you spend 10k on a bird or 100, if you think that is a lot to spend on a bird, you will be more likely to keep breeding from the bird. You would almost be better off to give say ganus 5k for a handful of birds with no pedigrees. All in their own right good blood. Then breed by the basket. You must be willing to part with these birds if they do not produce. I think a guy with 100 birds can keep his 10 top birds and start over and be more successful. I think if you are not willing to stop breeding unsuccessful birds or not willing to get rid of bad fliers, that you will not be at the top of the race sheet. This is very hard to do. My birds from my lesser pairs are still of use to me. I can watch them fly around my loft and enjoy watching them. I can also give them away to my competitors. This to can keep you on top.
> 
> Randy


Randy,

You speak like a man with great insite and wisdom, in spite of your limited years in the sport. I suspect they will be writing books about you some day ! 

If fanciers find it hard to remove their sub-par producers, just imagine the difficulty in removing some of the "good" birds in order to make room for promising race birds...yet at this point unproven breeders...which you hope will breed the next generation of even better birds. I recently made some major moves in this direction, and it took many sleepless nights, and what I think is courage, to make arrangements to relocate what may very well be some of the creme of Ludo's North American colony to a new affilate loft. My hope is that turning over my generations as quickly as possible, will move the colony in the direction I want it to go as quickly as possible. You can't do this, if you maintain the same breeders, year, after year no matter how good they may be.

I once stated that perhaps turning over 20% of your breeding stock every year, may be some sort of rule of thumb. Since it seems as a general rule, many fanciers report that maybe 20% of their breeders or less, account for 80% or more of their race winners. While 80% or so account for only 20% of their winners. I don't really know what the proper percentage should be, as it may depend on where one is with their breeding program...but I agree with you 100% that most fanciers fail for the reasons you suggest. They will simply keep doing what they did the previous year, and wonder why they keep getting the same results............


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I think some times we are detrimental to our breeding by introducing birds that we have spent great money on or value too much due to pedigree. We breed over and over from these birds because of the value we put on them. Not because they produce winners. If you spend 10k on a bird or 100, if you think that is a lot to spend on a bird, you will be more likely to keep breeding from the bird. You would almost be better off to give say ganus 5k for a handful of birds with no pedigrees. All in their own right good blood. Then breed by the basket. You must be willing to part with these birds if they do not produce. I think a guy with 100 birds can keep his 10 top birds and start over and be more successful. I think if you are not willing to stop breeding unsuccessful birds or not willing to get rid of bad fliers, that you will not be at the top of the race sheet. This is very hard to do. My birds from my lesser pairs are still of use to me. I can watch them fly around my loft and enjoy watching them. I can also give them away to my competitors. This to can keep you on top.
> 
> Randy


If you look at the concept of breeding. .You see that if in 3 years from a bird. OR key pair that you have not raised birds as good as the parents get rid of the breeders. If you have raised birds as good get rid of the breeders. If you have raised better birds get rid of the breeders.. NOW the important what is called prepotent birds are much harder to let go of. BUT the idea. Is to improve over and at least maintain a quality base program. YES pedigrees are sold to the unsuspecting buyers every year.. THAT is where you seperate the true brederes of top birds. BUT the problem in part is 1 money. 2 Birds are tested in the sky. so when buying untested birds you play the game of chance.. Now Agin good birds do fail to come home Were they lost or what did happen BUT they did not return. Because as i said in the sky anything can happen. QUALITY though is the key point. Your Culls may be some body elses future best bird. Every person starts some where. How much a bird cost does not show how good it is. FRee birds have helped many a flyer. The thought is a program in the breeding loft. If you race you test your birds. Now large lost numbers is not allways from you had poor birds. Does breeding less birds hold the answer No or more NO. expect that percentage of top birds bred each year. Sometimes It will be just 1 bird for the whole season. Other times that lets say 5 birds. But it is most often less about 2 or 3. Drag in numbers that does not hold back the top birds. Your program your feeding your birds all have a part. A 2 dollar bird bred right and raced right can be much better then some ones 10.000 dollar bird. But truth is there are few top breeders of racing pigeons Lots of dealers. Or buyers that bought there wins in a short time. BUT do they hold on year after year. The few that do grow to be good pigeon keepers It takes years to build a working family of birds. Start out as good as you can ,be it 100. dollar pairs or much more. Learn about the birds you have do your best and go from there. Remember first its a hobby , a sport, Something you like, and A art that when you keep improve over years Poeple notice They come to you to hopefully get good birds. Respect the sport never sell your junk birds for that all mighty dollar give them away. BUT your good birds sell them for a fare price that most can afford ,Not the few that think more money better bird. This is not Belgium where Racing pigeons is near like football here. Mean while enjoy your birds winning is just part. Breeding is the art after all the top birds are bred, A fancy pedigree is like a hot check its just no good unless the money is really in the bank. Trust from who you buy your birds and do your best the pedigree ended when you bought that bird. You start your line from there.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Having a small loft, I look at more like a 50% change in breeding pairs. I bred from 16 pairs last season. This season I am looking at about 12pairs with a few pairs of pumpers. I need to work more at genetic and breeding knowledge. I have always relied on stock sense as my number one guide. I do study pedigrees of good families. The one thing that I find is the same birds in the pedigrees of most of a fanciers birds. I am a firm believer that you can create a colony from a few good pairs. If you look at Jos Thone's winning birds pedigrees you see a bird Sumo. You also see a bird called Impossible. Vic Miller imported ACE a winner off of impossible to cross in. Jos has new addition to his champions this year. They have almost identical peds to his last years winners and his winners before that. 
I think too many faniciers are taken by the hupla they read. The Creator, Sure Bet, this bird and that. They rush to buy the birds. They throw them into their mixing pot of win quick stew. They buy a lottery ticket in a sense. One of the best fliers in Holand, Sangers studied pedigrees. He new what blood he wanted, He built his loft around select birds. He selected by the basket and is winning big in a short amount of time. He introduced new blood carefully ie Koopman birds. Similar bloodlines,quality birds, from a sound family. 
I had a guy offer me some Van Elsakers off of imported birds directly from the loft in exchange for some futurity birds he was flying for me that I gave him to test. One of my birds was 18th in the futurity/160birds and 4th in a club race 500+ birds. My question is can his Elsakers beat my bird? If not I do not want them. I told him that I would except a bird that beats mine average speed this year. 
Birds are like jobs, keep the ones you've got unless you can trade up.

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Having a small loft, I look at more like a 50% change in breeding pairs. I bred from 16 pairs last season. This season I am looking at about 12pairs with a few pairs of pumpers......Randy



Randy,

If you started with 16 pairs....and reduce that number to 12 pairs....that is a 25% reduction in pairs. But, if you keep the same 12 pairs from last year...that is a 0% turn over in your pairs. 

When I referred to "Turn Over", I meant replacing the old with new. So if you decide that 12 pairs is an idea size for your loft space. You would need to replace six of your 12 "old" pairs with six promising new pairs, to be at 50%.

If you went with a rule of thumb, then 20-25% would be keeping 9 pairs and getting 3 newer pairs made up from your best racers, or purchasing race winners. My preference would be those outstanding racers you raised yourself which fit the ideal you are working towards. If you would intoduce a new bird to the coloney then you should strive to obtain something better then you already have, rather then an introduction of a bird whose quality is similar to what you are replacing. 

Didn't know if we were discussing the same thing, when you said your turnover "was more like 50%", thus my explanation. The goal would be to move the colony forward by selecting those birds which perform "outside" the curve. So simply replacing breeders with birds of similar traits...does not accomblish the task at hand. So you are limited by the number of really exceptional birds you either produce or can get your hands on. Only then are you moving the bar so to speak.....


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When looking at your breeder birds. You have to look at the young birds raised by each pair. If those young are not in the loop of what you expect. You replace or remove the breeder cock or hen. To go forward Then better birds must be raised. Breeding around a certion pedigree aspect Helps find the key to an exsisting line at times. But then you test that bird. Each person ends withere program. THAT program breeds the birds. Give those same birds to another person They would breed different maybe produce better or worse birds. Pedigree is the breeding information needed to go with IN just your loft BUt agin peds, are a tool that must be read as a blueprint. Small numbers of paperd birds are breeding stock. You say a 50% turn over well Just as you reduce or change stock birds/breeders Was the next bird equal or better. In its perfomance. OLD birds are better able to be looked over as to race record then young birds. As they went through more then 1 season. A good 3 year old bird can be studied and set to the breeding loft. Basics say time improves a fine wine. So does it improve a breeding loft. Each has there idea. If you start good manage good you end up Better. Start fare you still end up better but just slower getting there.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Warren I am looking to downsize to 12 pairs. I will only keep about 5 or 6 pairs together that were together last year. I have 5 pairs that won me races in the past two years. These are the ones that I will keep together. The other six pairs is the challenge. About 60 birds is all I want to raise. I raised about 20 too many last year. Unless I can find someone who wants to fly a kit here and there, 60 is plenty for my needs. Not racing out of my loft, limits my need for birds. So when I say 50% I mean of my total stock pairs. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thought about the importance of old birds would be that if you are racing futurities and this is your goal, old bird results are irrelivant. You do not want aged wine, you want quick developing speed machines at 300 miles.

Randy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hillfamilyloft said:


> One thought about the importance of old birds would be that if you are racing futurities and this is your goal, old bird results are irrelivant. You do not want aged wine, you want quick developing speed machines at 300 miles.
> 
> Randy


The old birds would be the breeders. Going off just a young bird record on selecting breeders is not a good idea over all. Sure it can work. Far as developed young You want to stay with a line of birds that mature fast, and fly fast. Many families mature best at the 3 year mark. So going with breeders from people who have gone the young bird way only would be a place to get birds. And old birds 3 years old are well judged for the breeding loft Even with the young bird racing. when selecting that special breed bird.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> One thought about the importance of old birds would be that if you are racing futurities and this is your goal, old bird results are irrelivant. You do not want aged wine, you want quick developing speed machines at 300 miles.
> 
> Randy


 When I came back into this sport, I planned a very deliberate course of action to become a "Young Bird Specialist". I also planned in consultation with the best pigeon people I knew and *trusted*, a very detailed blueprint for the accomblishment of my very focused goal. 

Very simply stated, "To breed a pigeon, *which as a YB*, is simply the fastest bird in the loft from 100 to 400 miles, bar none ".

As a result, we select based on YB preformance, not as a yearling, or as an older bird. Recently, a local fancier who does fly OB's clocked one of our bird's as an OB, and won 500 miles on the day. So, I know that YB Champs can also turn in the preformance during OB racing, but a slower maturing family line which needs a couple of years before they can preform, is not what I am looking for.

I am breeding to win the One Loft type of events, and so we are breeding a very specific type of bird, and thus all of our breeders are selected based on their outstanding YB preformance. I don't have the time or willingness to wait three years to figure out the bird is never going to preform. He may have only a few races to demonstrate that he has the right stuff ! We are looking for the very exceptional, and they *must be exceptional as a YB.*

If we wanted to build the best long distance family from 500 to say 1000 miles, then a whole different mindset, and type of bird would be required. There the YB races would almost be meaningless. And perhaps a slow maturing family could be tolerated. I suspect that such a task would take much longer to do, because for example it may take 3 years to figure out if a bird has what it takes, and it may require a decade to turn the generations over 3 times, or 20 years to turn it over 6 times. Heck...it would take you 30 years !  To turn over the generations that we would do in 10 years. I just don't think I want to wait that long....... .....and besides, I need to win those One Loft YB events to pay for the birds like my Bont 509 which *won 8 prizes in 8 races as a YB *againest thousands of birds.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hey Smith,

You are getting off topic...stick with the topic !..... ........
(Note to self)


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> When I came back into this sport, I planned a very deliberate course of action to become a "Young Bird Specialist". I also planned in consultation with the best pigeon people I knew and *trusted*, a very detailed blueprint for the accomblishment of my very focused goal.
> 
> Very simply stated, "To breed a pigeon, *which as a YB*, is simply the fastest bird in the loft from 100 to 400 miles, bar none ".
> 
> ...


 I can understand your breeding concept. NOw the bird you just bought, Bont 509. I would suspect you will breed from this bird a few years. At least 3. Where you hope to raise birds that will perform. Perhaps one that is better. And this bird looking at its pedigree was not raced after young bird. But I guess put to stock. BECAUSE it performed so well . What I have been saying hold water very well for most people. As A person start one place, That is with the birds they can afford to get. And must build there birds. Moving to fast to breed has its set backs. You and others that can get top birds And build around them are lucky. But many can not. NOW I do see you offer birds at a good price So many can come to you and not over pay. I think thats good. Far as turn over as long as the turn over improves the line It is good But Turn to fast breaks a line down. We have been on the same base Most often But remember Many do start with lesser birds And even those that start really well ,if not breeding right do not get to the top or staty there long. I see you use Vanbreemans birds as well I had 8 pair of his birds back in the early 90s. They had very good pedigrees Wins aginst thousands of birds. AND there young did not get lost very easy He set out to do young birds and has done well. Anyway concept remains build that set of birds What ever program that brings long term sucess


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