# Hmoobh8wj - Help hold



## HmoobH8wj (Apr 7, 2011)

is it better to keep loft off ground or on ground and why?

if i do make a loft off ground do i need to dig a hole and put some Concrete in the hole i made? (so it hold better and it wont go down when i put roofing up)

if i do make a loft on ground is it good to do and why?

i gonna make a 10by10 and i want to make it off ground. i dont want to dig a hole and put Concrete. can i make it and stand it on a 4by4?


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

on the ground is ok if u can keep the mice away.....just go buy some concrete block and built on top of that....if u need more idea ...hit me up


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## HmoobH8wj (Apr 7, 2011)

if i put it on a concrete block will my loft fly off when it really windy? 
or like on even?


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## vangimage (Aug 15, 2010)

In my opinion off ground is best. Dont need to dig a hole for cement. The loft will be so heavy there is no way it will flip over or fly away. In order to make it even you will have to lay down your blocks. Get a 10-12 foot straight as you find 2x4 and use it with a leveler. Frist do the two lenght parallel then the other two. Then go in an (x) one at a time to level the blocks.This will awhile depending on how flat your ground is. You'll have to ad or remove soil accordingly. Hope this helps thats how I started when I built my new loft.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

found the prefect picture for you 
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/3475548003_578e98a882.jpg

those block cost a tab bit more but its worth it


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## HmoobH8wj (Apr 7, 2011)

damm i dont need that many block do i?


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

no it only a pigeon loft...my 8by 8 only have 4 ....10 by 10 im not sure


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

Come on your guys make you own blocks is so easy to do, just get some 2 by 6 of lumber make a box out of it like 15 inch by 15 and put some pieces of rebars pour some concrete in it any you will have a better block of concrete then the store, like i did in this photo http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1582&pictureid=20354
once you build that forms (box frame ) you could make as much as you want and save some money


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

Rafael/PR said:


> Come on your guys make you own blocks is so easy to do, just get some 2 by 6 of lumber make a box out of it like 15 inch by 15 and put some pieces of rebars pour some concrete in it any you will have a better block of concrete then the store, like i did in this photo http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1582&pictureid=20354
> once you build that forms (box frame ) you could make as much as you want and save some money


but your a pro..lol
there lazy people like me out their that would buy a 3 dollar block, instead of making one beside i wont have to wait for it to dry


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

blongboy said:


> but your a pro..lol
> there lazy people like me out their that would buy a 3 dollar block, instead of making one beside i wont have to wait for it to dry


And then you go to craigs list and buy some for cheap.
Dave


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

of a 8x10 you will need at-least 6 blocks ... if you don't block the middle when you walk in it will sag then break over time .


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

Yes you can make it off the ground sitting on blocks. it will be heavy enough to not blow over. cement blocks are like $1.50 at lowes and home depot. 6 will be a good number for that loft.


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## bhymer (Jan 8, 2008)

I live in a area where it is required to anchor your shed , for hurricanes..




















Look closely there is three across the front and rear...


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## HmoobH8wj (Apr 7, 2011)

nice but i would not need it cause in michigan we dont have hurricanes. lols


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Rafael/PR said:


> Come on your guys make you own blocks is so easy to do, just get some 2 by 6 of lumber make a box out of it like 15 inch by 15 and put some pieces of rebars pour some concrete in it any you will have a better block of concrete then the store, like i did in this photo http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1582&pictureid=20354
> once you build that forms (box frame ) you could make as much as you want and save some money


Raf is correct. THIS _*IS*_ the best answer, really. the best kind of footing is a poured one in a dug hole with rebar.

BUT...if you wanna be lazy...there's 2 versions of lazy.... which work OK.

1) the prefab footing maybe set into the ground 4" or so (image #1).

2) the prefab footing set into some wet concrete (no rebar) in a hole dug in the ground, with well compacted-ground. (image #2)

The problem with 1) is, particularly if you live in a wet climate with winters, eventually the ground will heave a bit and the footings will wanna go out of level(it will then be the framing which actually tries to keep everything square).

2) is better, because a dug hole provides more lateral stability and it also begins to get some bearing on the sub-surface. It also creates more MASS, which better prevents the footing from moving.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

TylerBro said:


> of a 8x10 you will need at-least 6 blocks ... if you don't block the middle when you walk in it will sag then break over time .


Yes and no.....You _*can*_ do a 10'x10' floor plan with just 4 corner posts and no intermediate blocks or footings....*IF* you use a pair of 4x8 beams spanning between the corner posts, parallel to each other. 

So that means one 4x8 beam connected to a post at each end of the beam, then another 4x8 set parallel to the first one, connected to the other two posts. (use a pair of 1/2" diameter thru-bolts to the posts).

Then.... you just frame the floor joists (2x6's at 16" o.c. would work fine for a loft floor, although structurally speaking for human fulltime live-load, 2x8's are better) between the parallel 4x8's....or frame them on top of the 4x8's (your choice).

It is sort of a 6-of-1-half-dozen-of-the-other choice. 

You could spend a tad more in lumber and a tad less on concrete..... (you are buying a pair of 4x8 beams, but you are only setting 4 concrete footings)....

....or go very cheap on lumber, and use more intermediate conc. footings/blocks....(i.e. use only 2x lumber with no 4x beams, but then use 6 or 8 footings because ~ as Tyler said ~ you would need more footings to support the 10' span across 2x beams).


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

I used a span chart when building my loft? http://www.msrlumber.org/spantables.pdf


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yup...that's the right way to do it ! Having been in the trade for several decades, I just basically go by memory. 

Generally, building codes keep changing and becoming more and more and more conservative, meaning that things are way overbuilt today when done with permit.

My wood member sizes for a loft are actually NOT gonna meet code for a human-inhabited structure...I cheat it a bit....but they are certainly solid & safe enough for an accessory building or loft.

Roof Rafters: 2x4's @ 24" o.c. can span about 10' max, 2x6's about 16'

Floor Joists: 2x4's @ 16" o.c. can span about 6' max, 2x6's about 12', 2x8's around 15'

Beams: a 4x4 can span across 7' max, a 4x6 about 10', a 4x8 about 13'.


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

You engineers/arch always crack me up  sometimes i swear you guys would use concrete rebar, lag bolts, and steel beams to build a card house


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

blongboy said:


> but your a pro..lol
> there lazy people like me out their that would buy a 3 dollar block, instead of making one beside i wont have to wait for it to dry


HmoobH8wj dont you get very high winds in your area ? if you look closely at this drawing a small picture on the bottom right will show you how i did my foundation its very important because over where im at i have to worry about Hurricanes here i also put 3 foot rebars deep in the ground to hold the concrete blocks i place check the drawing http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1582&pictureid=20351 im taking no chances with my loft


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

swagg said:


> You engineers/arch always crack me up  sometimes i swear you guys would use concrete rebar, lag bolts, and steel beams to build a card house


Indeed! As I said in my post above...building codes, having been heavily lobbied by materials/trade industries, are so darn conservative these days that everything which requires engineering for a permit is overbuilt big-time; so you are right in that respect ! 

*BUT*...on the flip side...I have also seen enough... 'lofts'... here which didn't even have the most rudimentary considerations for structural stability, lateral stability, soil movement and settling, or wind....thus really did end up being, basically, 'card houses'....

And that it is more than a bit unfortunate....

Because, if anyone is gonna invest their time and money into the endeavor....it'll really cost no more $ nor take much more time to just do it in a solid fashion....

As Raf/PR points out, as an example...at the end of the day, any layman can buy materials & pour a reinforced concrete footing ~ and have it cost no more than buying and installing the prefab ones.....No, it's not quite as 'easy', but you end up with a better final product in the end, too....

Just something to think about....


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