# Tree sitters!!



## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

I have a question, i have a new kit, of my own youngbirds, they fly for 15mins,, and are rolling really good for only being 3 months old, but I do have this tree problem, they come out and fly directly up to the roof, sit for a min then take to the tree tops,, no i can't cut them down... but after sitting there for 15 mins or so they take off fly good, return to the tree to land, but as soon as i call them they come down trap well and eat.. 

*My question is ,, can i put them on the roof of the kitbox, in there training cage for a week or so to make them understand to land on the roof..*or am i screwed ?? suggestions please,

I"ll add that i threw something at them once,, to get them up.. they flew but landed even higher in another tree.. now if there on the ground i can walk around them,, almost pick them up, they are hand fed and dont balk at my hands,, to me everything is great but the tree issue,, thanks for some advice


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. I think yes to your first question. But also try this. Lower the feed from previous day, then put some small rice or millet or any small seeds: just three to five seeds each bird on top of the kit before they come out or even after they have all landed on the roof. Then do not scare them, but watch for their move. I am hoping that they will not fly to the tree, instead they will flap their wings a little, get airborne, then land on the roof. Then call them in, feed a little. Then later, if you have time, repeat the same thing. Get them to land on the roof, eat some seeds, get airborne then land on the roof then trap and feed. If this works, maybe add the flag when they get airborn. But, before flagging them ever, try to whistle in an accending tone like a jet engine on the air plane starting and accelerating to a higher pitch sound. My reason for this is they will get a ready command before the flag, so when they are in the tree for some reason, you may get luck by just whistling at them and not have to throw anything at them or even flag them every time. 
Second option would be a paint ball gun. I have never tried this one but, i am told that the pressure is variable so the impact is minimum. 
The third recommendation would be to throw a dropper( a bird that likes to stick around the loft all the time) on the rooftop and feed it a little so the birds land on the rooftop instead of the tree. I hope it is cool in the kit box, because the birds get hot after their flight and would rather shade themselves incase a hawk shows up: smart birds. Thanks for posting.


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## pigeonflier (May 4, 2014)

I am having the same issues developing with my team of homers! Today I let them out here,, no training today,, and after they were done with their morning flight,, they all wanted to hang in the tree next door all day and would not come down for anything. This is my first batch of young that have developed this bad habit, so I am in the same boat as you and trying to figure out how I am going to break it!!! I like the paint ball gun idea,, I might have to get one and give that a try? For starters I think I am going to tighten up on the feed for a couple days and see how things go. It started out with 1 bird doing this and soon turned into my entire team now. Monkey see and monkey do at its finest. I know what I should have done when the very first bird did this,, had I taken care of that problem when it started it would have never got this far!! Today it rained and almost got a little nasty,, had a good storm brewed up, I would have had my entire team get caught out in it and that would not have been good! All just cause 1 bird started this mess and I let him slide!!! Lesson learned,, now I/we need to learn how to fix the problem?


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

hamlet said:


> Hello. I think yes to your first question. But also try this. Lower the feed from previous day, then put some small rice or millet or any small seeds: just three to five seeds each bird on top of the kit before they come out or even after they have all landed on the roof. Then do not scare them, but watch for their move. I am hoping that they will not fly to the tree, instead they will flap their wings a little, get airborne, then land on the roof. Then call them in, feed a little. Then later, if you have time, repeat the same thing. Get them to land on the roof, eat some seeds, get airborne then land on the roof then trap and feed. If this works, maybe add the flag when they get airborn. But, before flagging them ever, try to whistle in an accending tone like a jet engine on the air plane starting and accelerating to a higher pitch sound. My reason for this is they will get a ready command before the flag, so when they are in the tree for some reason, you may get luck by just whistling at them and not have to throw anything at them or even flag them every time.
> Second option would be a paint ball gun. I have never tried this one but, i am told that the pressure is variable so the impact is minimum.
> The third recommendation would be to throw a dropper( a bird that likes to stick around the loft all the time) on the rooftop and feed it a little so the birds land on the rooftop instead of the tree. I hope it is cool in the kit box, because the birds get hot after their flight and would rather shade themselves incase a hawk shows up: smart birds. Thanks for posting.



well thanks, i guess im gonna go with the training cage on top first, if that dont work, and they dont straighten up, i'll call them pigeon pie , 
I think the seed on the roof is a good idea, but a bit more work, i know that if they flap that seed is long gone,, lol,, shooting them outta the tree could be entertaining, but that goes back to the pigeon pie.. haha..

I just wouldn't feel right about shootin them even with a paint ball. I find when ever i do something like that, all heck breaks loose, this all began when i thought i should push them up.. so now to me flag equals bad.. patience is good.. i got impatient and now paying the price.. i was happy to see that these young birds are dropping at least 10-20ft with broken rolls.. i have nice hopes for them in about another couple months... they kit so close the wings touch.. (exaggerating) but nice and tight.

If you think resettling them on the roof will work, thats my choice LOL..

Thanks again..


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## bigislerollers (Jan 20, 2008)

Pack them up in a box/crate, take them away from the loft and let them go. Even if it's only 100' away, but the farther the better. It will get them to at least fly a little before landing on the house or tree. After a couple tosses they should get with the program. The next time you are training young birds, box them up instead of flagging. Flagging will just make them find somewhere else to land.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

pigeonflier said:


> I am having the same issues developing with my team of homers! Today I let them out here,, no training today,, and after they were done with their morning flight,, they all wanted to hang in the tree next door all day and would not come down for anything. This is my first batch of young that have developed this bad habit, so I am in the same boat as you and trying to figure out how I am going to break it!!! I like the paint ball gun idea,, I might have to get one and give that a try? For starters I think I am going to tighten up on the feed for a couple days and see how things go. It started out with 1 bird doing this and soon turned into my entire team now. Monkey see and monkey do at its finest. I know what I should have done when the very first bird did this,, had I taken care of that problem when it started it would have never got this far!! Today it rained and almost got a little nasty,, had a good storm brewed up, I would have had my entire team get caught out in it and that would not have been good! All just cause 1 bird started this mess and I let him slide!!! Lesson learned,, now I/we need to learn how to fix the problem?



Yes mine started with one bird as well.. its the before the flight they sit in the tree, when they fly they land in the tree but one rattle of the can there in the loft.. no problems there, its just the lolly gagging in the tree before they fly.. sometimes a few mins other times a lot longer


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## pigeonraiser (Mar 23, 2001)

Good topic, thought I I was the only one that ever had this problem.thanks.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. I forgot to mention. In the old days, all pigeon fliers had an antenna on their roof. Their birds would sit on that and when they were to fly, the antenna would be shaken and the birds would take to the air. Some people use a platform version of the antenna which can be put up for the birds to land on. I have never used this one, but it feels like a portable loft flying style of landing where the birds are fed on the platform. Thanks.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

bigislerollers said:


> Pack them up in a box/crate, take them away from the loft and let them go. Even if it's only 100' away, but the farther the better. It will get them to at least fly a little before landing on the house or tree. After a couple tosses they should get with the program. The next time you are training young birds, box them up instead of flagging. * Flagging will just make them find somewhere else to land.*


isnt that the truth, idk who came up with the flag deal.. it dont work for beans for me.. never has.. i knew better ..


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## LittleJohn (Jan 1, 2009)

The control of roller pigeons, is found in the feed can. Only you can determine when and how much and what you feed them. What you have described sounds like birds that have been spoiled and allowed to do what THEY want to from a young age. 

If you let them do what they want at a young age, they quickly learn that they can get away with it and continue to be lazy and do what they want. From reading your posts it seems very clear that you are way overfeeding them, again this is just my opinion, but I do have some experience dealing with trouble birds that you speak of.

I spent one entire summer working with late hatches from the previous year. I raised them one summer and didnt fly them until the following spring. That was an education in patience right there and is something I never will go through again. These birds absolutely refused to fly. So I took them down the road just over a half a mile away and turned em loose. They came in very high and flew for 30-45 minutes. After an entire summer of doing this every other day or so I finally could let them out from the kit box and they would fly...and from listening to your story about this bunch...they sound very similar.

I would cut em to 1 tablespoon per bird per day until you get their attention and take em down the road 1/2 mile to a mile a day, make em fly and make em get in shape...then it's much easier to keep their attention and let them know that you are the boss.

LittleJohn


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Hey LittleJohn, thanks for the response , its been a while since I opened this thread, but now i have got them flying, but its been a couple months of tossing them from down the road,, I have cut back on food, now they get approx 1.5 of straight wheat.. I still have the problem that if i dont take them out a ways, they still shoot up to the tree.. but atm i have a resident Coopers, drops by ever few days for a snack  I have to lock down a week or so now.. I agree they have trained me well.. but I am fighting back.. they do come in fast when i call. and the hawk has made them shy of trusting the tree over the loft.. I wont say the problem is solved, but i'll keep carring them away and hope before spring they fly.. my big concern is to get them to fly out of the loft,, and come back and land on the loft.. they still head for a tree to land.. when i call them they come really fast..under a couple mins.. and they will fly for up to 1.75 hours especially after the bop hits.. normally they go bout 1/2 hour.. 

I dont think these birds have what it takes, but they were inexpensive, so i'm learning with them ,, in hopes that the quality birds family line i purchased dont get ruined by my inexperience....I really need to find a roller man around here to get some help with newbie issues..

They did a great job of making me think they were starving to death, which led to over feeding them.. lol I didnt know.. i figured they were.. I hear they are up for an emmy.


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## LittleJohn (Jan 1, 2009)

Where are you located? I may know someone who may be able to help you out with either advice or quality spinners.

Since you are a backyard flyer and not into the competiton aspect of it, you can take more time and use up all of the patience that you are willing to....before moving on. I can tell you that once pigeons get into a habit it is very difficult to break it....so the key is not letting them start in the first place...bad habits are very difficult and time consuming to deal with.

I would imagine that you would prefer birds that come out of the kit box, go up and fly the time acccording to how you fed them, perform, and then return to your kit box...right? There are families of birds out there that almost seem to train themselves and make very few mistakes when doing so. There are also some that are stubborn and seem like they are impossible to even get flying. I prefer the first kind...I have enough challenges raising my kids and the last thing I want is a snot nosed pigeon that has a mind of his own and want's to land in trees and telephone wires etc. 

I learned my lesson long ago with the issues you are having, but again....be a master of your pigeons, by being the master of the feed can...and that doesn't mean starve or overfeed them...but base the amount an type you feed on how they are acting and performing.

Learn what all of the different grains do ....each has it's use for imparting a specific control on these birds. Again, if you dont let them know you are the man in charge...they will let you know that THEY are the ones in charge...choice is up to you and the feedcan is your only tool.

LittleJohn


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

yes i would prefer them to fly out of the kit box and land and fly correctly.. also I wouldn't mind competition if i ever get a kit that works right.. I have done show stock before, and enjoyed the camaraderie. I may be running out of patience with this kit of birds.. but we shall see, If i can get a handle on these for now (learning).. spring time i will breed the new stock.. and hopefully I will have a small handle on what I need to do...


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello willy. If you can, breed from the unknown birds also and see how they compare to the name brands( new stock). If you wish to make your birds skinny in a short time, try to replace barley with the wheat slowly. Then bring the wheat back for a day or two to see what happens. 
Are they getting any rest days? Maybe they need it. 
Also, count to see if they are molting big feathers( tail and wing). If they are, then feed them protein more than 13 percent and do not bother them untill they are done, then go with wheat or barley or both and hope the predators let you fly them the way you want them to.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I think it is a settling issue.They must never have free fly until they have learned your loft top/landing board is the normal place to land. (use a settling cage always!) 
It might take 4 days, it might take 3 weeks.
They must be sitting on the spot you want from day one after weaning, if not before. If they are not squeeking when you try to settle them, you are to late trying.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

AND I will say it again IT IS NOT.... Genetic, just handling.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

hello to you hamlet, 

I have had them locked down for 5 days, just flew them again this morning, I am still boxing them up an taking them a little ways away, 100 yd or so, behind a row of trees, they flew good today, shortly only 20 mins, and i noticed a few more doing some starting rolls, maybe 5ft short with kinda quick rolls.. faster than i could count, but then again, at 700ft kinda hard to tell anything, as far as flying now they are doing much better, but i am still trying to break them of sitting in the trees if i just let them out of the loft,
atm I'm cutting back on feed, hoping they get so hungry they dont land coming in on a tree,, but to the loft for food..  

Then next thing is getting them to fly right out from the loft.. 

At this point I'm just waiting and learning to train , doing something till spring  and then start to run the new strain.. I plan on pumping the new line with the original birds, I'm sure there could be a few hold overs from this kit.. so likely will have a few from them as well... other than my management kinda messed up this kit,, i can say that so far they do ok, just not stand out .. there almost six months so i should be seeing some serious rolling. But so far nothing to speak to of..

I bred this kit from the unknowns.. so i'll have comparison for sure.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

LuckyYT, 

I think we established quite a few posts back that it was "my handling", I was trying to find out how to fix them, from that point on,, some one with experience who could guide me, unfortunately I'm not an expert from day one, and the books i have aren't all that inclusive with the finer nuances of training.. 

As far as a settling cage, I used one. And they sat on the roof just fine, till I flagged them up.. advice given from someone else. 
i came here to hopefully be directed by some experienced roller guys,, to see what i could do to correct the mess I made.. 

And even if its not genetic, the unknown lineage of these birds makes them less desirable for me to work with, . so ya know, I wanted to have a good family line to work with, a line i could at least identify...know about there history, and get some help and advice from the breeder.. and all the books that i have, said _ you need the best stock you can afford or get your hands on_..

So I got some, and i'll likely get more shortly..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry, I did not mean to come on so strong. Once a Team has bad habits it takes drastic action to change it.
EVERY book on breeding any kind of Livestock says purchase the best stock you can....I am sorry, but I keep getting the impression you believe it is the Family of birds you are working with.
I take a different route. I find healthy average Stock and Breed it up. 
I have always found that more rewarding, just my preference.
You are correct in your opinion that the flagging messed them up.
Unless you are in the middle of a vast open area it is always a mistake (you want them to love home, not chase them away)
Using a settling cage does take some judgement, I use a Large cage, and set up a temporary Flight Pen made out of game bird netting, so they spend lots of time in front of my landing area. After while it becomes to them as important as their Perch they sleep on at night. When they are out they want to sit in that area.
Of coarse you still need to control feed to a point to control them as they get older.
This temporary pen serves two purposes, settling, and letting them start to react to the local pairs of hawks(Summer residents)
It also makes the Hawks wary about trying to dive at them, since they get close and see the netting and it spooks them.
NO predator likes to be spooked. it does give your birds a major edge until they can out fly the hawks (NOT migratory goshawks)
I leave them in this Aviary for about a week or two depends on how "Wing strong" they are. once the netting is removed they feel most comfortable sitting on the Roof, or landing board they have become comfortable perching on. 
A small cage is of little use to me anymore.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

OK let me say this loud and clear, *I DONT THINK ITS GENETIC! * but i do think they are not quality bred rollers, and yes, all books say get the best you can, yup i agree, so there all just saying that purely to sell their stock, or to perhaps increase prices ,,,,would that be right? .. so we can then just *dismiss that advice from every author out there? *

now if someone wants to catch there stock under a bridge, and take years to try to make them top quality rollers, thats fine to me, I dont have that kind of time nor patience, but if thats the way they want to enjoy the hobby, more power to them, its not my place to criticize them for there choices..

Proclaiming repeatedly that I am the problem, _which i agree with_,does little to nothing in helping me learn how,, I'm glad your training is superior, did you learn all that in your first six months? now how about some useful information, and quite the no stock will make a difference .. I dont blame the stock, I just want better stock..And one last thing, these are not a "family" in any shape or form, they are a dozen unrelated birds from were ever.. and this kit is just the first young birds from this unrelated bunch of birds.. heck they for all i know they might not even be all flying rollers.

I remember when people helped, not bolstered themselves with new comers to the hobby..

I see nothing wrong with purchasing better stock, I hoped that with good advice I wouldnt "RUIN" them as well.. and if i can learn something ahead of time so much the better.. wanting top stock isn't a sin, and i certainly am not blaming the stock for these issues. Fixing them is the problem. I was trying to avoid culling the whole lot.. 

But if im gonna go forward with rollers, i want the best stock i can afford..and there aint no shame in that! And if there was a roller guy around here, trust me, i would be talking to them, not sitting here begging for help.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

GEEEE I just read what I wrote just sounds like I was giving you advice, which is what you say you want. does not sound off base, or self promoting.
Why don't you wait for some one with a Magic wand?
I even apologized for coming on to strong.
The advice I gave you is sound based on 50 years of Pigeon handling.
I will not bother trying to help you anymore. Have a nice Day


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Sorry, guess im having a bad day.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

No problem.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello roller folks. I thought rollers flew 20 to 30 minutes the most. Here is quote from you tube: at 2: 44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDqCxa60I6I


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I believe you are talking judging time. My Teams will at times fly 45+ minutes sometimes an hour.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Excellent Video!


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Just had mine out this morning, I got a solid 38 min fly.. good height, minor rolling tho.. I get a lot of one wing flying even at altitude, big lazy circles, with only a few figure eights.. B kit, I tossed them this morning for the first time.. they just flew in a mess and back to the loft.. but I think thats a good beginning..


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

willygog said:


> OK let me say this loud and clear, *I DONT THINK ITS GENETIC! * but i do think they are not quality bred rollers, and yes, all books say get the best you can, yup i agree, so there all just saying that purely to sell their stock, or to perhaps increase prices ,,,,would that be right? .. so we can then just *dismiss that advice from every author out there? *
> 
> now if someone wants to catch there stock under a bridge, and take years to try to make them top quality rollers, thats fine to me, I dont have that kind of time nor patience, but if thats the way they want to enjoy the hobby, more power to them, its not my place to criticize them for there choices..
> 
> ...


Willygog,

Rollers have been selected to fly, kit and spin for a many years, their DNA determines how they behave. If it was purely down to management homers, fantails, etc. could all be induced to roll! 


You may well be aware of the Rollerworld website, if you want advise, that would be the place to seek it.

http://rollerworld.ning.com/


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Bull..... Fantails are not built for it, homers are not bred for rolling. The discussion was getting them to loft fly. PIGEON KEEPING 101.
Any flying breed needs training to get to where they loft fly, it does not take a Roller specialist to achieve that. It is silly to even bring Fantails as an example.
Tipplers, Homers, Rollers, B.P High High Flyers are all trained and conditioned to LOFT fly in a like manner. 
, The difference is when you are in competition, big difference from training to loft


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