# Most effective wormer for pigeons is.....



## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

The most effective wormer for pigeons is diatomaceous Earth (DE). You cannot over doses with it. DE is safe for even very young birds; it has no side effects and will not cause bone or feather deformities. 

You administer it at ½ teaspoon per 16 ounces of feed, or one Campbell soup can. Mix a little safflower or peanut oil on the feed and then the DE. Wait 9 days later and do it again.

You can also sprinkle DE around your loft and it will kill every creepy crawly you may have in your loft. The best part of DE is that it does not expire and never goes bad. 

Several of the pigeon supply houses sell it and its cheap.


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks for the info will have to keep that in mind.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

can you provide a link for us to buy it from? I am looking to buy some because since i let my birds loft fly a lot and when they come home, they all like to graze on the ground a lot before heading inside the coop. I afraid they might get some worm. So can you direct us to the product site. thanks


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

We use DE as well. We mix about 1 pound to 100.
We mix it straight no oil ext. Sticks just fine.
I also feed it to my dogs daily and have done it myself but never got into the habit of taking it daily, though I should.

*WARNING*
Make sure it is food grade (codex) DE.
Pool grade and or insect grade is not safe..
If it does not say Food grade or codex it is not.


You can find it a most feed and or tack stores.
About $20 for 50 pounds.

Health food stores also sell it though the price will certainly be higher.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

See this thread, there been a few on DE

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=56030


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## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> We use DE as well. We mix about 1 pound to 100.
> We mix it straight no oil ext. Sticks just fine.
> I also feed it to my dogs daily and have done it myself but never got into the habit of taking it daily, though I should.
> 
> ...


Good advice!


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## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> can you provide a link for us to buy it from? I am looking to buy some because since i let my birds loft fly a lot and when they come home, they all like to graze on the ground a lot before heading inside the coop. I afraid they might get some worm. So can you direct us to the product site. thanks



Foy's sells in under the name Worm Guard PLUS Powder.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Lavender Hill Lofts said:


> Foy's sells in under the name Worm Guard PLUS Powder.


thank you but unfortunately, its out of stock. i wondering does jedd other supplies stores carry them.


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## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> thank you but unfortunately, its out of stock. i wondering does jedd other supplies stores carry them.


Give Jedd's a call tomorrow at 1.800.659.5928 and ask for Greg McKnight and tell him what you need.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

I got mine from Amazon....

http://www.amazon.com/Diatomaceous-...X8ZC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324349800&sr=8-2

free super saver shipping too. 

I give it to the birds, dogs, cats- have tried it myself- but never got in the habit, even though it seemed to be good for me- and I sprinkle it around the doors and windows of my home to keep spiders outside. I have also dumped a pile onto of big gnarly spiders to stop them in their icky tracks.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

thanks guys!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You can find it at Lowes in the insecticide aisle and at Tractor Supply as well. Probably Southern States too. I put a handful in each bucket of feed I mix. I don't really measure it, haha. The only thing I don't like about it is breathing it in.

It's also good for sprinkling on the floor, on perches, etc to help keep it dry. Which is absolutely key because bacteria, spores, and everything bad thrive in moist places.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> You can find it at Lowes in the insecticide aisle and at Tractor Supply as well. Probably Southern States too. I put a handful in each bucket of feed I mix. I don't really measure it, haha. The only thing I don't like about it is breathing it in.
> 
> It's also good for sprinkling on the floor, on perches, etc to help keep it dry. Which is absolutely key because bacteria, spores, and everything bad thrive in moist places.


Be careful as the those stores are not selling food grade so I would not risk mixing it with feed.
I use food grade for the bugs as well. Cheaper anyways.


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## Doves1111 (Mar 5, 2005)

Tractor Supply has it...20 lb bag for $11.99.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-la...s-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864

*Description

Red Lake Earth® Diatomaceous Earth with Calcium Bentonite is a unique, natural product that can be used as an anti-caking agent or pelleting aid in feed. It can be used with various livestock species including bovid (beef, bison, dairy, deer, goats, sheep, etc), camelids (alpacas, liamas, etc), poultry (chicken, duck, emu, goose, ostrich, pigeon, quail, turkey, etc), rodents (chinchillas, gerbils, guinea pigs, hamsters, etc), dogs, equine, rabbits, swine. This product can also be used as a dust bath to control external pests. Diatomaceous Earth can be used as a natural insecticide and natural de-wormer.

Red Lake Earth Diatomaceous Earth is a powder that is available in a 20 lb. bag.

Ingredients:
Diatomaceous Earth, Calcium Bentonite
*
Dawn


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

i use it in the pigeons bedding and in the nest boxes, i also mix it in their grit bowls, i put a bowl of it on the floor for my loft cleaning crew, my cortunix quail, they dust in it


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Doves1111 said:


> Tractor Supply has it...20 lb bag for $11.99.
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-la...s-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864


That's a good deal. I suppose though after shipping it comes out in the Low 20's.

FWIW If you have the option Fresh water DE is best.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

So does this DE kill the worm eggs?


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

rpalmer said:


> So does this DE kill the worm eggs?


Do you ask this sincerely? Or are you here to stir things up like in every other DE thread?


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> Do you ask this sincerely? Or are you here to stir things up like in every other DE thread?



If the truth stirs things up??? I don't think DE is "_The most effective" wormer"._ But that is because I don't know if DE kills the worm's eggs. I "suspect" that it does not, so I am asking.

BTW... isn't this the "new" DE thread?


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

rpalmer said:


> *If the truth stirs things up???* I don't think DE is "_The most effective" wormer"._ But that is because I don't know if DE kills the worm's eggs. I "suspect" that it does not, so I am asking.
> 
> BTW... isn't this the "new" DE thread?


So basically you're saying you're right and we are wrong...
Very arrogant attitude you have.

I do not know if it kills the eggs directly. I would assume or guess or whatever word you're comfortable with that it does. 
However I don't see how that matters. DE is used as treatment but also as a preventative. Used regularly there will never be a female inside the animal to lay eggs. However if there is DE can still be used to treat/kill her or them. Though it will take longer initially then expensive and highly toxic worm specific medications it will do it in a safe manner.

DE on pets should be used daily to prevent worms not just when you think they have them. Given only once will do nothing most likely. 

I am happy this topic has come up again as it has moved me to get serious about taking it daily. I was mixing it with a small glass of water and will continue that and try it in new things as it taste like chalk or dirt (not that I have had either).

I really fail to see what is so hard to understand about the effectiveness of DE. IMO it is rather simple. Do you doubt its effectiveness on insects outside of the animals body? It does the same thing inside..

These are just a couple pages talking about it and its effectiveness.
There are more...

http://www.ghorganics.com/DiatomaceousEarth.html
http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/diatomaceous_earth.html

This page recommends dosage and it appears other pages have copied it.
It reads 5% for Chickens, though it will not hurt them I feel as if that is excess and a waste.
2% is what Perma-Guard recommend and even that seems a little much.
I use a little less than 1% and end up still having excess in my feed bin. Not a problem as it gets used when I dump new seed in. 
Perhaps if I used oil I would not have wasted DE but every seed gets coated so I don't see a point in the oil, the seeds seem to have enough to do it themselves. 
We add it by mixing in the feed slowly and stirring with a 2x3 or by hand. until 100 pounds is coated. 
We also use it outside the loft in the loft and everywhere in between. Don't forget to reapply if it gets wet as it will get very hard and be ineffective. 
This page talks about how to use it.
http://www.shadowridgedonkeys.com/perma_food_grade.htm

_Don't ever expect this to be 'mainstream' or even slightly popular. Big medicine does not make money off DE. Remember. Doctors don't make money healing people or animals they make money keeping them healthy enough to come back to fill another prescription._


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> *So basically you're saying you're right and we are wrong...
> Very arrogant attitude you have.*
> 
> I do not know if it kills the eggs directly. I would assume or guess or whatever word you're comfortable with that it does.
> ...



First of all let me say that I have not gone to your links. I have read quite a bit about DE online. The facts repeat and sometimes are incomplete.

I really don't know how you think I am being arrogant by wanting the truth told as best it can be with this product. But I guess you missed hat part.

One of the things that is a common listed trait of DE is that it is effective only while dry buy loses it's effectiveness when wet. I always thought this interesting since a pigeon's gut is wet. But you say you put it in water. That is wet and should render it useless.

I guess if you keep feeding it to your birds it could kill the worms after they hatch. But for me there is still the issue of a wet gut. I don't think mainstream dewormers are giving bad press to DE. I have used an excellent product that is used for 5-7 days, if I remember correctly, and then that's it. All done. No re treating in 17 or 28 days or whatever many do recommend. 

Too many people try to spend as little as possible on their pigeons only to spend again on another product and then again for one that requires a longer time of treatment thus costing more and then maybe on something that will be effective. All that spending is good for retail sales but not so good for the fancier or the birds. Veterinarians are not going to lose a penny because of DE. And I'll bet a cup of coffee most would gladly find another line of work if there were no need for them anymore. Big Medicine will not lose a penny because of DE. They will get it when you discover that when it comes to worms, they are the best answer. The only people who will lose money are the DE folks when they can' explain how DE loses it's effectiveness when wet but works in a wet gut or a glass of water.

I have thoroughbred racers. They get what is best for them and me.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

I am under the belief that you just came to this wet theory after reading what I wrote about it.
DE sitting on the ground for example after getting wet gets hard and forms a plaster like sheet. When stirred into water it does not have this opportunity as it is not sitting still or exposed to the air, thus is remains separated and useful.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> I am under the belief that you just came to this wet theory after reading what I wrote about it.
> DE sitting on the ground for example after getting wet gets hard and forms a plaster like sheet. *When stirred into water it does not have this opportunity as it is not sitting still or exposed to the air, thus is remains separated and usefu*l.


Your believer is broken. First you say I'm arrogant for wanting the truth and now you "believe" I got the wet idea from you. Sir, it is you who are arrogant. Like I said I did not read your links and am not going to now just to show that you did not read them.

The topic *IS* The most effective wormer for pigeons. DE is not it. DE works when dry because of it's sharp edges. When wet those edges are no longer sharp. You must sell the stuff because your fast and lose handling of the facts are indicative of a salesman.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

rpalmer said:


> Your believer is broken. First you say I'm arrogant for wanting the truth and now you "believe" I got the wet idea from you. Sir, it is you who are arrogant. Like I said I did not read your links and am not going to now just to show that you did not read them.
> 
> The topic *IS* The most effective wormer for pigeons. DE is not it. DE works when dry because of it's sharp edges. When wet those edges are no longer sharp. You must sell the stuff because your fast and lose handling of the facts are indicative of a salesman.


Facts?
You have facts now that DE is ineffective or that those edges get grounded down when wet?

You are not going to read the links to show that I did not read them?
That makes no sense at all? Wouldn't you have to read them to prove I did not? As in finding a contradiction between me and their words?

How do they say? 'The proof is in the puddin'
DE has been tried and tested by many animal enthusiasts. 
From Pigeons to Dogs to Bear and probably everything in between. 
Or is it just a placebo that when a dog test positive for worms and only gets treated with DE and no longer has worms? Did they die on their own?

*You never came into this thread to tell us what the best dewormer is as you seem to keep pointing to the topic. You have not mentioned one thing about another wormer. You came to talk about you opinion of why DE is ineffective and at that have done nothing except nit pic my post. And poorly might I add.*

_*I have said what I wanted to say in this thread I am no longer going to go back and forth. Especially since this has been done in other threads. It is useless and not adding anything.I like DE you don't we all get it.
If you wish to continue I may consider via PM.
Thanks*_


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

The best worm medication, as I have stated a few times in a few threads, is Vetafarm's Wormout Gel and can be purchased here http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/36-59.html and at other pigeon supply houses.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> The best worm medication, as I have stated a few times in a few threads, is Vetafarm's Wormout Gel and can be purchased here http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/36-59.html and at other pigeon supply houses.


Just as a caution, Wormout Gel contains Oxfendazole, which can be as deadly to pigeons as the notorious Fenbendazole. I've personally had a pigeon die after being wormed with it by an Avian vet, hence the amount of research I've done on the topic. The wormer caused bleeding from the gut for two days & death. Horrible to watch. 

Wormout Gel is praziquantel (for tapeworms etc) combined with Oxfendazole (for round worms, hairworms, mites etc). The praziquantel is probably what makes wormout Gel seem so effective, but you can get similar combinations that are safer to use. 

Examples include levimisole/ praziquantel combo wormers (called Avitrol plus where I live), and Moxidectin plus. I've had really great results with both of these wormers. Moxidectin has a slight advantage in that it is one of the few wormers that doesn't cause nausea, and therefore vets say it can be used during stressful times such as racing & breeding etc.

In my personal opinion, there is no best wormer because worms can build up resistance to your regular wormer and eventually you'll need to swap to something else no matter how effective it was in the beginning. 

So even though my personal preference in wormer is Moxidectin /Moxidectin plus, sometimes it hasn't worked and I have needed to use Avitrol Plus tablets to kill the worms.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> Just as a caution, Wormout Gel contains Oxfendazole, which can be as deadly to pigeons as the notorious Fenbendazole. I've personally had a pigeon die after being wormed with it by an Avian vet, hence the amount of research I've done on the topic. The wormer caused bleeding from the gut for two days & death. Horrible to watch.
> 
> Wormout Gel is praziquantel (for tapeworms etc) combined with Oxfendazole (for round worms, hairworms, mites etc). The praziquantel is probably what makes wormout Gel seem so effective, but you can get similar combinations that are safer to use.
> 
> ...


I had no problems at all. Did your vet add it to the birds water daily as directed?

I check my bird's droppings under a microscope and if they don't have them then they don't get wormed. I'm surprised your vet does not do the same. I treated once and have have not had to repeat the treatment.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> I had no problems at all. Did your vet add it to the birds water daily as directed?
> 
> I check my bird's droppings under a microscope and if they don't have them then they don't get wormed. I'm surprised your vet does not do the same. I treated once and have have not had to repeat the treatment.


The Vet administered the wormout gel directly into the crop, just after he checked the fecal under the microscope for worms. There were definitely worms there. It was a rescued feral so the worm burden could have been higher compared to a well looked after pet pigeon. 

From what I have read after that awful experience, the use of the Fenbendazole family of wormers is generally regarded as gamble; some birds will be fine, and some will die from it for no apparent reason. I think I got unlucky


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## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

Great dialog! 

The reason Diatomaceous Earth (DE) is the best is very simple. It is a contact killer whereas other wormers simply cause the worms so lose their hold on the intestine wall before being passed but does not killing them inside the host. You have to repeat worming 9 days later no matter what type you use because the worm cysts (eggs) hatch and will themselves mature and start the whole life cycle over again. 

1.	DE is a contact killer
2.	Kills all species of intestinal worms and insects 
3.	Safe to use any time of the year
4.	Cannot overdose your birds with it
5.	Will not cause feather or bone abnormalities
6. Has no harsh chemical side effects
7.	Parasites (worms) cannot build a tolerance to DE like other popular wormers
8.	Will not kill or harm the host (pigeon)
9.	As long as it stays dry will never expire
10.	Tasteless to pigeons and can be mixed on their feed ensuring every bird is adequately wormed

As all good fanciers know you cannot achieve success in racing or showing by constantly pouring something out of a bottle and giving it to your birds. If you have worm problems, which you really shouldn’t, then something else is amiss in your loft.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think both DE and regular drug dewormers have their place... for a heavy infestation in a bird he would do well to get a drug to save him.. for maintenacne as said the DE is a great natural product. I have heard the same thing about it being useless if wet, my thinking was it is a good guard to have sprinkled about in the dry loft to kill new hatched parasites..and other bugs as well... really can't go wrong with that however limited it may be as a actual dewormer. It is always wise to get a fecal check to see if one even needs to use a drug dewormer, birds outdoors always have some..it is when the numbers get too high they can cause symptoms of disease and open the bird up to other ailments as well.. so keeping the numbers in check and not over medicating for no reason is wise too. Im lucky enough to work at a vet and have samples taken and checked.. I have not had to deworm anyone for a long time..but my birds are flying or on the roof most of the time and their loft is kept clean.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> I think both DE and regular drug dewormers have their place... for a heavy infestation in a bird he would do well to get a drug to save him.. for maintenacne as said the DE is a great natural product. I have heard the same thing about it being useless if wet, my thinking was it is a good guard to have sprinkled about in the dry loft to kill new hatched parasites..and other bugs as well... really can't go wrong with that however limited it may be as a actual dewormer. It is always wise to get a fecal check to see if one even needs to use a drug dewormer, birds outdoors always have some..it is when the numbers get too high they can cause symptoms of disease and open the bird up to other ailments as well.. so keeping the numbers in check and not over medicating for no reason is wise too. Im lucky enough to work at a vet and have samples taken and checked.. I have not had to deworm anyone for a long time..but my birds are flying or on the roof most of the time and their loft is kept clean.



Worms were just one of the free-bees included with a good deal from an auction site.

I can guarantee you I will not buy an auction bird again.


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