# The difference between grizzled English Tipplers and grizzled Pakistani High Flyers.



## Print Tippler

Alright, well i was sold birds as Pakistani high flyer and now im fairly certain they are English tipplers after much talking with some Pakistanis over in the UK. The difference seems small but just for other people out there here are the differences.

A grizzled Tippler.









A grizzled pakistani.









Pakistanis have darker heads for the most part. It can be kinda confusing. Some Pakistani people over in the UK said it can be confusing. Also Pakistanis do not kite up as well, Flying performance is probably little better for the English. I also heard English tend to go up and down while Pakistanis stay up.


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## lordcornwallis

there closer than you think ! british soldiers brought tipplers and other breeds back to england in the 1840s onwards from pakistan and india . so the pakistani tippler is the grandad of the english tippler


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## Print Tippler

Ok I know there close. I have just finally understand the differences. Atlest with these dark head ones. The more whiter ones with less head specking I still need to look into in. Tipplers also have more white wings. While Paks have a more under grizzle. They are indeed very closely related, but they do fly significantly different. Endurance of flying is similar, I think the favor tips towards the tipplers. Tipplers will rake up and down in the sky while Paks will stay up. Also Paks don't kite up well.


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## Birdman79

Other ways to tell,is that pakistani birds are longer than english ones for the most part.Some of the necks curve forward then the english ones.Some pakistani breeds have a beak that curves instead of being straight like an english tippler.


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## Print Tippler

What do you think about them in comparing performance, do you confirm or deny anything? Anything to add?


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## Birdman79

Pakistani tipplers do good in hot weather.They do good in the hot gulf countries in the middle east.The yb's are not as smart as english tipplers tho as they tend to fly high and get lost if not trained correctly.


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## MaryOfExeter

I don't think the color has anything to do with it as they both can look exactly the same colorwise. Just their size, shape, and other characteristics that separate them.


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## Print Tippler

None of the pakistani that have the heads like that will have white wings like mine. They have the more grizzle looking wings. Undergrizzle?


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## rx9s

English tipplers are a lot smaller bird Then the paki tippler


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## BACALA

are the canadian tipplers ralated to this breed..? http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/picture.php?albumid=1528&pictureid=16406 we always called them canadian tipplets back in brooklyn...


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## Print Tippler

Yes same bird. I wasn't sure to call them Canadian or English. I think they originated in England. Does anyone want to chime in on this matter. Should they be called English or Canadian or all both acceptable? Hmmm maybe I should just call them tipplers haha. How many times can I be wrong


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## BACALA

so that's why my neck hurts so much after flying them...these babies go up so high they get lost in the clouds...


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## Print Tippler

Yeah too my knowledge the Canadians had all there tipplers imported in. What would you all call my birds everyone? Canadian or English. I Have some photos in my album. More if needed.


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## AZCorbin

Any idea what went into the tipplers to make them different then the Pakistani's? Maybe nothing? Just some selective breeding?
Edit: Are the prints in any way other then color different than English? I got a couple that look like they may be blue barred mixed with print which are a little bigger. They potentially could be mixed with some Iraqi tumbler but I don't see that influencing the size..


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## BACALA

well i always knew them as canadian...the greys were called grizzle...the blacks were called spangles...i'll keep calling them canadians...


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## Print Tippler

BACALA said:


> well i always knew them as canadian...the greys were called grizzle...the blacks were called spangles...i'll keep calling them canadians...


Well i contacted the Canadian National Tippler Union (CNTU) and spoke with their secretary, who said "We at the CNTU only identify the Tippler as English and not by any other county since they were only developed in the UK on or before 1840. Tipplers imported to other countries cannot take on the name no matter the length of residence in that country as there is only one type of Tippler and that is the English Flying Tippler." So if the Canadian National Tippler Union says its wrong to call them canadian, well thats good enough for me haha.


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## Print Tippler

Oh just as another post.... Im really tired of tying to find out about this breed... I contacted the CNTU and one person said they were great tipplers... Then talked about english tipplers. I guess my contact went to multiply people because then i get another response from someone saying some of mine were Pakistanis high flyers *face palm*. My brother sold some birds to a pakistanis and before the person got up to the birds, my brother said they were english tipplers. The Pakistani gets up and said oh yeah those are Pakistani high flyers.... Go on a Pak high flyer forum and they said they were english tipplers. Which i believe them but wow. How many different answers can i get! If everyone told me the same thing i would be fine, but from some Non pakistani people i get told there english, also so say pakistani, From pakistani people i get told they are english, some said they were pakistani. It is getting really ridiculous


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## hamlet

Hello. I care less about the color of high flyers than kitting ability, tumbling, and altitude. Names can be stolen. Peace.


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## lordcornwallis

pity the late great tippler man jack prescott was not with us anymore iam sure he would have the answer .


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## Tiplets

Canadians, English or Pakistan’s “Tipplers” For the most part the English got these grizzled birds from Pakistan or the surrounding Countries, many may have been crossed with the Amsterdam Tipplers & other short face of that type which are lighter grizzled birds that has a tighter kit flying style, plus most English tipplers have medium to short beaks & are smaller birds, with all grizzled flight tips & tail feathers. If you look at the Pakistan dark grizzle tippler many if not all, have some white feathers in their flight tips & tail feathers and a Long beak and is a larger bird. Now the Name “Canadian Tipplers” is a term that was adopted & phrased in the North east mainly NY, where these birds found there way into the US via Canada. The Canadian Tippler is a medium-large size light or heavy grizzled bird with a med-long beak and has a solid light to heavy grizzled flight tips & tail feathers. Now the term or name used to describe “Spangle” is simply a color pattern. It describes what I understand it to be, is a bird that has a bolder color spots of White with one other color, be it Black, Red or Yellow, that is evenly distributed throughout the entire bird, but which has one or more white flight tips & tail feathers, Some folks have even coined the term “grizzle spangle” But Spangles or “grizzle spangle” don’t have solid flight tips or tail colored feathers, its flight tips or tail feathers is broken with white feathers! I was born, live & Love the USA, But I have to say that many if not all pigeon breeds that have made there way here to the USA have been out crossed with other breeds, that you really don’t know what you have in your loft today, except for a few hand full of breeders “Old timers” that have not compromised their breeds & still you will find a few that have out crossed them for Show defining characteristics & in doing so many A breeds have lost their high flying abilities. So today when you show or ask someone what breed or type of bird is this! to almost anyone here in the USA, you will get different answers, it’s a free for all. Your guess is just as good as the next persons guess. Unless you got the birds Tipplers directly from a master breeder or England or Pakistan it self!


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## Print Tippler

Hamelt, I was just trying to differentiate between the two colors two tell the birds apart. Thanks Tiplet. Most of my birds are the spangled you described with white feathers in the middle of black, on the wing and tail. I also have some mottled which I guess people call Danish tipplers. I'm leaning towards the side of the CNTU and saying the only tipplers are English tipplers and other people just took them and renamed them. If I kept tipplers for 80 years gave it to a lot of people and they became more popular they shouldn't now be called American tipplers.


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## Tiplets

Print Tippler said:


> Hamelt, I was just trying to differentiate between the two colors two tell the birds apart. Thanks Tiplet. Most of my birds are the spangled you described with white feathers in the middle of black, on the wing and tail. I also have some mottled which I guess people call Danish tipplers. I'm leaning towards the side of the CNTU and saying the only tipplers are English tipplers and other people just took them and renamed them. If I kept tipplers for 80 years gave it to a lot of people and they became more popular they shouldn't now be called American tipplers.


Your Welcome & Thank you, But I just have to slightly differ with you on one point! The Danish Tippler or “Danes” which many New Yorkers call them are American Tipplers, They are all one solid color be it Black, Red or Yellow with small white spot or mottling on the upper wing butts and a white “V” shape markings on their upper backs between the wings, They also have a Longer beak and are larger birds then The English Mottled Tippler or also Sometimes called The Mottled Tumbler, Which also have the same “V” shape marking on their backs & wings, But the English ones’ have a shorter beak and is a smaller bird. And again many folks use the term Mottle in many different breeds, but they all must have two solid bold colors. Black, Red or Yellow colored birds with a even White bold color mottling throughout the bird, but the head, flight tips & tail feathers must not be white, they must be a Black, Red or Yellow solid color and don‘t have to have the “V” shape on their backs, LOL. It really all depends in what part of the world you live in. LOL, That’s why I like to use the European Standards’ when addressing color patterns. Because not until one world Standard can be united or established by the Americans, Europeans & Australians which I consider to be the three biggest authorities, until then. Like I said, it’s seems to be a free for all!


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## Print Tippler

Here are some pictures of my mottles AKA tiger grizzles I have one that is large the other ones are all small

*i cant remember what i posted here, but here are some birds*


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## Tiplets

"Here are some pictures of my mottles AKA tiger grizzles I have one that is large the other ones are all small"

I would call these birds black spangle Tipplers.


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## tipplers4life

tipplers are english,,,crossed homer and tumbler,,,and another breed,,,all began in macclesfield england long time ago,correct me if ime wrong any one


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## tipplers4life

hi,can any one tell me what breed this is? is this a high flyer,i got 40 for free,all different colors some have feather feat,ime not sure if high flyers have feather feat.


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## tipplers4life

and these.


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## tipplers4life

and this one,it has feathered feat,


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## Print Tippler

Well the first one could be a tippler but the others are not. I don't know about those big ones the feather footed one looks like a tumbler of sorts, middle eastern.


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## tipplers4life

i though the feather footed ones where tumblers but the man i got them off said they dont tumble, another lad said they are high flyers,i think they could be a cross,oh well they look nice,thats all that matters


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## tipplers4life

oh cheers pal


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## Sunne

I think there Iranian Highflyers, not sure though.


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## Ken do_Mace

I guess it is look like an 
Iranian HF


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## bdpigeons

Anybody willing to sell some pakistani..I am in Washington DC, USA.


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## Pijlover

bdpigeons said:


> Anybody willing to sell some pakistani..I am in Washington DC, USA.


Yes i have some tipplers to sell, shipment will be the only hurdle


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## NetRider

Old thread, but having experience with both the breeds I thought I would share my two cents.

Its really difficult to tell the difference between pakistani high fliers and tipplers based on their looks only. The first picture in your post can qualify as a pakistani high flier based on its looks. Its correct that most pakistani high fliers will be grizzled/pied, but you can pretty much find them in all colors, its just like homers for example, just because 90%+ people might fly blue bars, doesnt mean there arent other colors available.

If I wanted to tell the difference I would have flown the birds. Most high fliers are solo fliers, and most of the time they do not like to kit with other birds. I have flown pakistani high fliers and tipplers together, and where the tipplers will try to kit with the pakistani birds, the pakistani birds will avoid them. Also most of the tipplers wont fly for long if alone, and will even feel nervous resulting in a faster wingbeat if flown without a kit, where as the pakistani high flier can keep flying for hours without taking notice of other pigeons. The high fliers will also fly really high, even disappear for hours at a time. Most of them do however not rake, but of course there are exceptions to all rules. I have had pakistani pigeons who rake, and I have had pakistani pigeons fly 12+ hours staying at a low altitude.

Another way to tell tipplers apart from the high fliers is in flight during windy weather. The tippler will take advantage of the air currents, where as the high flier will use more power to stay airborne. The high fliers will give their best performance in windstill and hot weather where they will fly high up in the skies where its cooler and stay there for hours.

Btw you mentioned english going up and down, well there are strains in the english tipplers who dont do that either.. For example the Bodens will stay low most of the time, where as the Hughes will stay in the pins most of their flight time. On the other side, you will have pakistani pigeons come down, and then hit the pins again, some more often than others.

Btw here is a link of a guy who has some of the different types of pakistani high fliers, check out the difference in shape and colors... http://merchantpigeon.com/breeds.asp?act=breed



Print Tippler said:


> Alright, well i was sold birds as Pakistani high flyer and now im fairly certain they are English tipplers after much talking with some Pakistanis over in the UK. The difference seems small but just for other people out there here are the differences.
> 
> A grizzled Tippler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A grizzled pakistani.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis have darker heads for the most part. It can be kinda confusing. Some Pakistani people over in the UK said it can be confusing. Also Pakistanis do not kite up as well, Flying performance is probably little better for the English. I also heard English tend to go up and down while Pakistanis stay up.


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## Ken do_Mace

NetRider said:


> Old thread, but having experience with both the breeds I thought I would share my two cents.
> 
> Its really difficult to tell the difference between pakistani high fliers and tipplers based on their looks only. The first picture in your post can qualify as a pakistani high flier based on its looks. Its correct that most pakistani high fliers will be grizzled/pied, but you can pretty much find them in all colors, its just like homers for example, just because 90%+ people might fly blue bars, doesnt mean there arent other colors available.
> 
> If I wanted to tell the difference I would have flown the birds. Most high fliers are solo fliers, and most of the time they do not like to kit with other birds. I have flown pakistani high fliers and tipplers together, and where the tipplers will try to kit with the pakistani birds, the pakistani birds will avoid them. Also most of the tipplers wont fly for long if alone, and will even feel nervous resulting in a faster wingbeat if flown without a kit, where as the pakistani high flier can keep flying for hours without taking notice of other pigeons. The high fliers will also fly really high, even disappear for hours at a time. Most of them do however not rake, but of course there are exceptions to all rules. I have had pakistani pigeons who rake, and I have had pakistani pigeons fly 12+ hours staying at a low altitude.
> 
> Another way to tell tipplers apart from the high fliers is in flight during windy weather. The tippler will take advantage of the air currents, where as the high flier will use more power to stay airborne. The high fliers will give their best performance in windstill and hot weather where they will fly high up in the skies where its cooler and stay there for hours.
> 
> Btw you mentioned english going up and down, well there are strains in the english tipplers who dont do that either.. For example the Bodens will stay low most of the time, where as the Hughes will stay in the pins most of their flight time. On the other side, you will have pakistani pigeons come down, and then hit the pins again, some more often than others.
> 
> Btw here is a link of a guy who has some of the different types of pakistani high fliers, check out the difference in shape and colors... http://merchantpigeon.com/breeds.asp?act=breed


Thanks NetRider! That was a lot of help. Can you please give us some more info about Pakistani HFs... ty


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## Print Tippler

NetRider said:


> Old thread, but having experience with both the breeds I thought I would share my two cents.
> 
> Its really difficult to tell the difference between pakistani high fliers and tipplers based on their looks only. The first picture in your post can qualify as a pakistani high flier based on its looks. Its correct that most pakistani high fliers will be grizzled/pied, but you can pretty much find them in all colors, its just like homers for example, just because 90%+ people might fly blue bars, doesnt mean there arent other colors available.
> 
> If I wanted to tell the difference I would have flown the birds. Most high fliers are solo fliers, and most of the time they do not like to kit with other birds. I have flown pakistani high fliers and tipplers together, and where the tipplers will try to kit with the pakistani birds, the pakistani birds will avoid them. Also most of the tipplers wont fly for long if alone, and will even feel nervous resulting in a faster wingbeat if flown without a kit, where as the pakistani high flier can keep flying for hours without taking notice of other pigeons. The high fliers will also fly really high, even disappear for hours at a time. Most of them do however not rake, but of course there are exceptions to all rules. I have had pakistani pigeons who rake, and I have had pakistani pigeons fly 12+ hours staying at a low altitude.
> 
> Another way to tell tipplers apart from the high fliers is in flight during windy weather. The tippler will take advantage of the air currents, where as the high flier will use more power to stay airborne. The high fliers will give their best performance in windstill and hot weather where they will fly high up in the skies where its cooler and stay there for hours.
> 
> Btw you mentioned english going up and down, well there are strains in the english tipplers who dont do that either.. For example the Bodens will stay low most of the time, where as the Hughes will stay in the pins most of their flight time. On the other side, you will have pakistani pigeons come down, and then hit the pins again, some more often than others.
> 
> Btw here is a link of a guy who has some of the different types of pakistani high fliers, check out the difference in shape and colors... http://merchantpigeon.com/breeds.asp?act=breed


There actually pretty early to tell apart now that I'm more involved. I won't be getting them confused. BTW all my birds were English. Got rid of most of those birds though.


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## WALEED

Pakistanis fly alone usually and they tend to go straight up high, they flap there wings more in flight and may do the odd tumble when coming back down, circling the loft whereas tipplers are shorter generally fatter with some exceptions and they tend to glide a lot when they fly . They will stick together and conform to other groups of pigeons they gradually go up high and will tend to go from low and high. Pakistanis are long and thin and when they fly they will spread there tails slightly.


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## lordcornwallis

good reply well done ,thanks for pointing out the difference.


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## hamlet

WALEED said:


> Pakistanis fly alone usually and they tend to go straight up high, they flap there wings more in flight and may do the odd tumble when coming back down, circling the loft whereas tipplers are shorter generally fatter with some exceptions and they tend to glide a lot when they fly .
> 
> >>I wonder if the Paki tippler was bred from a highflying tumbler or vise versa? I got a feeling that the English tipplers were bred from the tumblers. I am not too curious about this but just for fun. One day I may get to see the Indian highflyers in action. One pigeon fancier said that they were faster than the tumblers when it came to outflying/outmanuevering the BOPs. I think they may even survive the high flying falcons.


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## WALEED

>>I wonder if the Paki tippler was bred from a highflying tumbler or vise versa? I got a feeling that the English tipplers were bred from the tumblers. I am not too curious about this but just for fun. One day I may get to see the Indian highflyers in action. One pigeon fancier said that they were faster than the tumblers when it came to outflying/outmanuevering the BOPs. I think they may even survive the high flying falcons.[/QUOTE]

Lol not really the indians get plucked out of the sky easily they are good at dodging but they put up a fight but still get killed. I've got about 4 lofts in the same block where I live. they have Indians/Pakistani hf and and a single peregrine took up to 2 a day easily in the summer. any hf are easy target for bop because when they fly high the falcon tends to have the upper hand with speed and it can get multiple chances. unless the hf has rolling or diving capabilities. But I have seen that when the hf are coming in to land and the bop attacks they just dive to their loft and the bop fails. that's why you should breed extra birds chances are they will get killed.


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