# Mary's Pigeon (Was HELP!!!)



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just starting a new thread .. the other one is getting very, very long. For anyone coming in at this point, do read the HELP thread and then let's continue here until this thread gets too long.

Terry Whatley

PS: Mary deserves an award for what she's been through today as do all the folks who have tried to help her. I am getting in on the tailend but many of our devoted members and moderators have been here trying to help all day.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I put the oil inside with a syringe and i hope she can push it out on her own....she tries very hard..i don't have baytril.. she started eating some seeds just now.. i don't know if she will make it?.... 

Mary


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Terry,

I think my mom deserves the award..She really helped me through this and did a GREAT job helping to get the pieces of egg out!

And with the help of everyone here!!



[This message has been edited by maryco (edited July 04, 2002).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Mary,

Please thank your mother profusely for all of us. She is not only a trooper herself (and, I guess, what mother is not?), but has raised a lovely and caring child .. that would be you! And, I know you are a big child, but still your Mom's big/little one!

Please keep us posted. I know it is getting late there and both you and the pigeon need to get some well deserved rest. So, let us know how it goes when you can.

Terry Whatley


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## candra (Dec 18, 2001)

As some of you know, this was the exact same problem with my Sheila a few months ago.

Keep her quiet and if you can't get to a vet right away (ie: it's the middle of the night or something) do give her calcium -- the crushed tums mixed with water works fine. I used a shot glass, and it worked good.

She needs to pass the rest of the egg -- if there is one. The vet can give her a shot of oxytocin to stimulate uterine contractions. She also needs to start Baytril ASAP. This is a very hard infection to knock out. It took Sheila a good 24 hours to pass the rest of the egg contents -- there wasn't a shell.

You are doing all you can right now, but she does need to get to a vet, or at least she nees to start Baytril.

Hang in there, and try and keep her calm.

Candy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Mary:

Before I go back to bed, please know that you can e-mail me at: [email protected]

If you locate an avian vet, and they will deal you the Baytril & 1 cc syringes, I will pay for the drug via credit card with a phone call. The vet's office can reach me in the United States at: [XXYYZZ]. If I'm out, I will return the call. You may have to "sell" the vet's office--but you can do this.

If you don't know an avian vet, call a nearby pet store that deals in expensive, exotic birds. Ask who their vet is. Tell the vet that you have a large "Pet Dove" that is apparently--well, just explain the immediate condition of the bird and what you can afford to do about it.

Another option would be Foys' (they may have tablets) & Fed-Ex.

God, girl! You're something! 

--Ray

[This message has been edited by raynjudy (edited July 05, 2002).]


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Ray, you are so very kind!!!

Mary you are awesome!!!

I love this board!!!

Julie


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

wow! I was out most of yesterday, and missed all the excitment! I would have offered my phone number Mary, but to be honest, I don't know that I could have offered any more (probably less!) help than you got here!

How is the bird today?

Hey Folks....how about a big Hip Hip Hurray for Mary and her Mom!

Mary is quite something....I have to say I doubt there are many young ladies around like her! (I have to admit, I was quite astounded when I first found out her age....all along, I had thought I was "talking" to someone closer to my age! LOL)


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hi everyone:

My mom gave her water this morning but she didn't pass the egg yesterday we syringes alot of warm oil up her vent but the egg is very hard and lumpy that it is so hard for her to pass it......i am thinking maybe i could take her to the rehab and they might have something to give her to pass the egg?
I hope they won't put her to sleep..

Mary

P.S She pooped alittle at night but it splashes all over her feathers maybe becuase she has the egg in there...


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Candy,

I have some crushed egg shells i will ground them and put them in the water for calcium..
When we looked in the vent we didn't see any egg shell so maybe there is no shell?

Mary


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

I'm confused again; could be age and lack of sleep--which you're not helping, girly!









Have you retrieved fragments of shell, or not?









Do not give that bird to a "shelter" without a complete "what if" interview first! Read SilverSmoke's experience...









--Ray


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Folks,
I read about egg binding last night. The last thing you want to do is give calcium. It hardens the shell and that is what should not be caused to happen in an egg binding situation.
It was recommended that only after the egg has passed should calcium be given.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

No, I was wrong about the calcium. Here is a quote from the site:

"First and foremost, a warm, quiet environmentwill allow the bird to focus it's reserves on passing the egg rather than keeping warm. 

An immediate increase in calcium will do nothing to harden the shell of an already formed egg but will do wonders in improving the muscle action needed to expel the egg. Calcivet by Vetafarm, provides not only the calcium, but also the D3 needed to absorb the calcium. It can be served in the drinking water or sprouted seed if the bird is still eating and drinking. If the bird has stopped eating and drinking, it can be administered directly into the crop. 

Massaging a small amount of vegetable oil around the vent will help soften the mucus membranes around the vent and help the hen pass the egg. 

Once the egg has passed, the bird will appear to have made a complete recovery. It is now time to assess the nutritional problems that caused this problem in the first place. It is dangerous to attempt to breed this hen again until the nutritional deficiencies have been addressed."


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Ok.... sorry i just found another pigeon downstairs...i saw him from the window on the ground i ran down and he was all tied up with string his legs and wings very tight as if a human has done it!!







i can't believe anyone could do such a terrible thing!

He was laying on the ground and all the other pigeons were bothering him so brought him up and we took the strings off but his legs seems red and he can't fly so i put him outside in the aviary with the 2 squabs i am raising from Kristy.

I hope he will be fine soon.

Now about the egg bound bird:

Ray, thats what i told my mother..i don't want to take her to the rehab since they always say she is a wild animal and i am sure put her to sleep..there vet doesn't even seem experiences since when i took 2 pigeons with a crop yeast infection they put them on antibiotics! 

There is no shell at all just when she poopes little pieces of hard yolk come out too.

I will be watching out for eveyones posts

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Please check you email now and get back to me as soon as you read it.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Mary, just a thought.....what if you called the Toronto Metro Zoo and explained your situation? Maybe someone there could help?

We have the Bowmanville zoo not too far from us....and the vet there is who all the local vets refer to when people have avian/reptile health needs.

Or, the vet school in Guelph? I know they have a big avian centre there.....

I think this is getting beyond what anyone here can help with.....and I agree with Ray...stay away from the Humane Society /rehab places, unless you feel she is suffering and should be euthanized


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

WhiteWings:

I know where bominvelle zoo is i went there but all the places are really far from where i live...there is an avian vet in toronto but i never went there and they will probably charge alot.

I wish there was a volunteer avian vet that would do it for free...

Mary


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

The problem now is getting the egg out....should i let her sit in a warm bath to try to get it out?


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Fred said, in part...

"The last thing you want to do is give calcium. It hardens the shell and that is what should not be caused to happen in an egg binding situation."

1) Calcium is also a "lyte" and is necessary for proper neuro-muscular function--to expell the egg/egg material... How many cases of birds standing up within hours have we heard of, with calcium supplements being given? In short, many. Neuro-muscular function in birds requires calcium--now. That that element is a building block for egg-shell is another matter.

2) Isn't there another egg on the way?







Pigeons nearly always lay two, and practical experience dictates that the second one always passes just fine, if the first one is passed successfully (which it wasn't).

3) To stabilize the patient, Baytril should be administered now. Even before a surgical fix.

4) This bird needs surgery. I can't pop for that.

5) Euthanasia costs about what Baytril does, so my offer stands--but a "shelter" would do it for free.









At any rate, another egg is likely on the way... I don't give up easily, and I never underestimate a pigeon, if there is no shell







(I thought there was shell?)the bird can reabsorb some yolk material.

I too have cracked the books on this. There are too many variables. I've done what I can here.

I'll be out for most the day. At this time (09:19), my A/M is clear of messages.

--Ray


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I will call an avian vet and ask if they have Baytril but they might not give it to me?

I will try anyway.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I called they said they will not give us the Baytril....as soon as she heard it was a pigeon and wild she didn't seem to care.....


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I put her soaking in a tub with warm water but as i noticed today her cere is very red instead of white.....does that have anything to do with the egg binding..?


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Mary, I realize the Zoo isn't all that close...I just thought maybe someone with a little more knowledge could give you some advice over the phone.

I'm also wondering if there is a little more here.....you mentioned yesterday about the inability to walk, and the gasping for air. My guess is the bird had the wind knocked out of it when it fell off your balcony? Could she have bumped her head/cere in the fall? Likely.... I doubt it has anything to do with the egg binding. Or she might have bumped it trying to get out of whatever you are keeping her in. Are both her cere's the same colour? Some birds just naturally have red ceres.

I'm going out for a bit now too....I'll check in when I can.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Her ceres were white yesterday then pink and now red.....


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## candra (Dec 18, 2001)

Mary:

Yes, the crushed oyster shells are good too. Do whatever you can to get some calcium down her. As Fred subsequently said, the calcium will give her the strength that she may need to pass the egg contents.

Second egg? Not always. At least in my Sheila's case there was not, but you never know. 

The vet believes (in Sheila's case) that she had a low level asymptomatic infection which caused some deformity in the egg development (hence no shell), which ultimately resulted in yolk sac peritonitis. 


You sound like you are doing all you can right now, but Antibiotics are vital. Infection will be the biggest problem. 

Candy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Ray left a note for me to check on this, but I have little time this morning.

Her blood pressure is climbing? A systemic infection may be taking hold? Another egg may be on the way? My God, what next? Terry is right, you are a "trooper" Mary.

Did you call a pet store for a vet referral?
Ray suggested that you say "pet dove", not pigeon.

We seem to be ready to do one of two things, either wait, or take action. As Ray would say, it's your call. If we wait, she needs the Baytril at once.

Judy


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

We were going to take her to the avian vet but the charge was $300-$800 and so mom is taking her to the wildlife center and see if they have an a avian vet then that ok if not they will have to put her to sleep.......









I really appreciate everyones help!!

Mary


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Mary,

Well, we are all pulling for your bird and hoping for the best from the wildlife center.
Please let us know what happens.

Just another thought for the next time (and knowing you, there will be many next times <LOL>!) ... while Baytril may be the antibiotic of choice, you may have had something else left over from the flu or something. How about amoxi, cephalexin, cipro, doxycycline .. any kind of antibiotics in the house?

Terry Whatley


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

The wildlife centre said they will see her situation and if they can't help her they will put her to sleep....i will call in 2 days and see what happends!

Mary


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

i Wish i could have read about this probelm earlier. For egg binding. You should keep her warm at all times, put her under some lights. And continue with oil massaging. If all else fail try to gently massage the mass out yourself, you said you saw no shell so doing this would be even more worthwhile. Those who suggested calcium are right on the mark, it will aid in muscle contractions and putting her in the sun would help also because not only will it keep her warm, but initiate production of Vitamin D3, thus facilitating calcium absorption and muscle stimulation. Give the bird some gatorade if you have any,it will help her with any fevers. Antibiotics are useful , but i would recommend it if you observe bleeding. Otherwise dont give her any as long as your following the above suggestions, she will need her energy to expel the egg not to befurther stressed out from medications.
Jim,
PS, i have saved a hen from egg binding near a 2 dozen times using the above suggestion, and lost around 4, its not perfect but it has worked for me on occasion. 
Jim


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hi, Jim:

David Marx, DVM., describes massaging an egg from an egg-bound hen. It can be done--but it's dicey, as the egg could be broken by inexperienced hands. There lies complications, and we don't even want to go there.

But you're right, and I'm not questioning what you say.

I'm still fuzzy on part of this--were there shell fragments or not?







That is a pivotal issue!









Fred, upon reviewing this, I see I ran right over you, missing your retraction about the calcium thingy. I fully believe that you've forgotten more than I know, and I didn't mean to step on your toes, my friend.









Mary, C'mon sweetheart, we can take it. And we need the closure. What happened?

--Ray


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Ok from the begining...

I located the Avian vet in my area..my mom called them and asked if there is any volunteer avian vets that can help or if we could purchase the Baytril..
The lady said she won't give us the Baytril, so mom asked how much it would take to do the operation and remove the egg, the lady said $60 for the vet to look at her, $30 since it is an emergency and $300-$800 for the operation...Fred was very kind and willing to help us but we all decided it was way too much and so we had no choice but to take her to the wildlife center and see if they can help and if not the lady at the vet said we must put her to sleep but she would charge money..so we just took her to the wildlife center and if it is necessary for them to put her to sleep they will do.

I will check back with the wildlife center and see whats happening in afew days.

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Ray,
No need to apologize. If I'm wrong, I am always the first to admit it.


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## kristy (Jun 21, 2002)

My god, Mary! I'm so sorry







You're such a trooper for taking care of these birds... I've seen so many dead ones near my building lately (working on the balconies is really messing with them) and did you know there's a building at Kipling and Eglinton that one of the tenants claims the super said they use POISONED FOOD to kill the pigeons??? UNBELIEVABLE... people are sick.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thats awful!!!!!!.....











> Originally posted by kristy:
> *My god, Mary! I'm so sorry
> 
> 
> ...


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

UPDATE on the egg bound pigeon!!

The wildlife centre just returned the call and they said she is still alive! Thanks GOD!
At the time of the fall she had an egg developing in her and after the fall it bruised the whole area and caused alot of trama to her...They put her on antibiotic and she is eating now. All the egg has cleared out and she is hopefully recovering!

I am so glad she is ok..

Mary


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

They will also return her to me to release if(hopefully) she will get well!

Mary


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Mary,

That is truly wonderful news! I am so happy for you and for the pigeon! Please keep us updated.

Terry Whatley


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is really wonderful news! It also shows that that particular rehab centre will do what it can for pigeons which is encouraging!

I hope she makes a full recovery.

Cynthia


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

I've been out and about for the last couple of days, and haven't had time to read up on how the bird was doing!

So glad to hear that she's doing well Mary! You are quite a remarkable person! I'm honoured to "know" you!


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Outstanding news!









Resilient little critters ain't they?









PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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