# Worse breeding season ever



## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I am having all kinds of breeding problems this year. I only had one egg hatch out of dozens. Some the birds would not sit on or would then stop after several days. Then some sit the entire 18 days and the eggs never hatched and were rotten, or they only lay one egg. I just canded the remaining eggs that are being sat on and I think they are bad too. Greek Boy said he had a similar problem and it was because he medicated before breeding. I have been giving my birds ecol tonic once a week and red cell vitamins every other day on the feed this is the only thing that I have done differently, could this be my problem? Thanks, any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Sounds strange. Obviously the hens are doing their job as far as laying. The eggs aren't fertile so I guess that's the cocks fault. There laying so you must have the lights okay for this time of year. Sure seems odd that the whole bunch is affected. If it were just a few I'd just call it bad luck but since it appears to be your whole flock maybe I'd separate them and back off the supplements. Just feed a good breeders mix in a reasonable amount, offer everyone some layer pellets and good grit and maybe start the cocks on wheat germ oil, something with selenium and Vit. E. Then after a few weeks put them back together.
If they're paired up the way you'd like now they'll get right back to work. Hope this helps, good luck!


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Just checked the Red Cell and it's got some Selenium and Vitamin E. Think I'd still get them on Wheat Germ Oil. Maybe someone else will have some more ideas.


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## derek (Nov 24, 2009)

sorry... to hear that hope u, can get a hold on whats wrong ....


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

The loft is heated. It stays above 40 in there all the time. I don't have a heater on the water and it is never frozen, no ice at all in the waterer. I candled some of the eggs that are due to hatch on the 28 and I saw only half of the egg was dark and one you could see liquid rolling around in there. They don't look right to me. I pitched 4 the other day that were overdue and when you shook them you could feel the liquid going back and forth in the egg so I know they were rotten. I have had the lights on for months now.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

derek said:


> sorry... to hear that hope u, can get a hold on whats wrong ....


I do too. I started early so I would have older birds to show in the early shows but thats not going to happen now.


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## miken (Jun 23, 2010)

I've read that Lugol's Iodine can help with hatch ability. I give it once a week and I am doing better than last year when I had problems like you're having. Knock on wood!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you have to becareful with redcell, it sounds like you're giving too much..I would only give twice a week if that. 

I would candle the eggs at about 7 days after the second is layed if being incubated and if you see life they are fertile, if not hatching or turning bad, it sounds like a bacterial problem, perhaps Salmonellosis. if the eggs are not fertile then perhaps you have a vitamin balance problem or genetic fertility problem. 


sometimes taking the hen away for a few days can get things started with more gusto as the cock missed his hen. I would not heat the loft unless it gets below 30. adding nesting material they can carry and mess around with can get things in the mood also. I would at the least have the droppings tested of these pairs you want to breed from.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

If eggs are developing and not hatching, it could be an infection in the hen or even the cock - salmonella, ecoli, paratyphoid, etc. It's possible that it could be throughout the flock. If you could take one to a vet and have it tested, that would help your figure out how to treat. I really don't think the ecol-tonic has anything to do with it. 

I had a hen last year whose eggs were fertile but they would never hatch. All the research, testing and questions led me to a bad infection that didn't appear to affect her all all other than the eggs not hatching. She looked great, acted great. Salmonella is what everyone was telling me.

You may want to consider splitting them up, medicating for 14 days (or however long the medication recommends). Then another week on calcium supplements and pro bios to get their systems back in order.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Try pulling the fluffy feathers around both birds vent for tighter copulation.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

OK....Lets see what we have here...Clear eggs >> Cock did not make contact probally because other cocks knocking him off...Happens ALL the time,unless you have large nest boxes,to lock up each pair...Also helps in KNOWING who the real parents are,if you have a Champion pigeon on your team... Eggs half dark/black/watery/not hatching etc >> Sickness..You need to medicate..Throw all eggs away...After your done with medicating,just give the birds fresh water,clean grit every day..NO GRIT while medicating.....I suspect you have a typhoid problem...That would take 14 days+ to get rid of...Good Luck....Alamo


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Iodine in the water before pairing or as you pair.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When did you worm your birds. Sometimes when you worm them They go infertile for near a month. And first round sometimes the hens go down on eggs to fast and the eggs are clear. NOT fertile. Second round they eggs hit. Candle your eggs at 3 and 5 days. If clear let them sit for 10 days and toss them. Then they will get started on the next round of eggs. And most often will be good. Red cell I just used iut 1 time weekly. BUT I did use vit E. either in gell tabs. Or bought a good poultry vit, that had a high dose of E in it. And used it in the water for 4 days when I paired the birds. ANd are your birds a little over weight. That slows them down at first also. See what the next round does.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

The iron, copper, cobalt in red cell are heavy metals. They work the liver pretty hard to filter and dissipate excessive amounts from the body.
Overdoses of heavy metals does more harm than good. They will take away from the harmonic balance.

I have never used it on my feed, just a table spoon in the water every 10 days. For the past few years I just use Iodine once a week for the breeders from the time I put them together till they lay. If you don't have any mice problems give them your regular feed and keep some chicken layer pellets in the loft all the time, it has every thing they need to lay eggs.
Dave


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I have been putting about a cap full or so of red cell in the feed, I usually just dump a little into about 2 drinking glasses full of feed every other day.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I just looked at the red grit I am using and it has all kinds of vitamins in it. I started using it around middle of Dec.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

That is a lot of red cell, I would cut back on that to maybe once a week. Start giving them winsmore it supposedly increases fertility by 90%. The cocks could also be knocking each other off the hens. If they keep leaving the nest with developed eggs then perhaps rodents are making the parents get off the nest and not go back to it?


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Wish I had the magic answer. I'm a Red Cell fan but just give it to my racers. Are these birds that you've raised babies from last year? Getting a Vet involved would sure be a good idea if you have one near.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Let me preface this by saying I certainly don't know everything about raising pigeons and could even be considered a rookie still, just entering my fourth breeding season. 

That being said, I think we overthink animal husbandry some times. That is to say, we read somewhere that this vitamin or that supplement is good for our birds or even a necessity to raising good pigeons. 

My philosophy is "Less is more". The only thing I give my birds other than high quality feed, is a probiotic in the water about 4 times a year. Other than that I make sure they are not overcrowded, the loft is clean enough to be healty but dirty enough to be happy and those that are not prisoners get some exercise once in a while. 

I have never had an adult bird die except those which have fallen prey to hawks. I have never had any birds get sick. Something like 98% of all eggs ever laid have hatched and I have only lost 2 babies in the nest out of 100+ that have been hatched. I live in a very severe climate for 6 month out of the year. Last night for example it was minus 22 F and I have 4 hens on eggs. I fully expect 8 hatchlings over the next week. 

My point is, sometimes we need to trust that these birds do have an inborn ability to live and thrive and reproduce without a lot of manipulation from us and we maybe don't need to overthink our management of what nature has designed them to do.

Like I said, I am no expert and everyone will have their own theories on what is necessary or what works for them. This is just my perspective from my experience and if you can glean anything useful from it, great! If not, that's ok too.

Jim


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

i had this last year ... i treated for e-coil . my baby’s would die after two or three days .. of hatching ... after treating it cleared it up ... 

I use red cell twice a week .. about a table spoon in there feed twice or three times a week. then garlic twice a week .. 

all my hens are down on eggs now and are hatching ...

i like the red cell to the parents so when they feed the babys the babys get the red cell ... 

this year my babys look a little more filled out than last year.. and they look larger than my brothers who are around the same age


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

I am on the same field you are own I totally agree with you..
Kinda the survival of the fittest...........





loonecho said:


> Let me preface this by saying I certainly don't know everything about raising pigeons and could even be considered a rookie still, just entering my fourth breeding season.
> 
> That being said, I think we overthink animal husbandry some times. That is to say, we read somewhere that this vitamin or that supplement is good for our birds or even a necessity to raising good pigeons.
> 
> ...


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

loonecho said:


> Let me preface this by saying I certainly don't know everything about raising pigeons and could even be considered a rookie still, just entering my fourth breeding season.
> 
> That being said, I think we overthink animal husbandry some times. That is to say, we read somewhere that this vitamin or that supplement is good for our birds or even a necessity to raising good pigeons.
> 
> ...


I to thought like you when I first started out 4 years ago with no sickness or deaths of young or old birds but that all changed one day. I got some new birds and didn't quarentine them and I have had my share of sick birds ever since that time I check droppings and have been able to keep things in check for a while now I don't think my birds are sick at this time. I am begining to think I overdosed them on red cell. I do still think like you do that less is better. I only use meds when I have to. I also think that you will not get away with out some sick birds forever.


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## Petra (Feb 21, 2013)

I am new to this. I am trying to find an answer for my sick dove. How can a post a question? I rescued 2 white doves. One has gotten sick (fell off the perch, seizures, head twisting) I took him to the vet and she gave him antibiotic shots, saying he has an ear infection. 2 shots later, he is not better. He is very sensitive and his head is all the way bend back. He has periods where he seems better (eating, sitting on the perch) Can someone help me? thank you! Petra


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

TylerBro said:


> i had this last year ... i treated for e-coil . my baby’s would die after two or three days .. of hatching ... after treating it cleared it up ...
> 
> I use red cell twice a week .. about a table spoon in there feed twice or three times a week. then garlic twice a week ..
> 
> ...


 I love the red cell/ I think my birds look heathier than ever since I started using it It made a big difference during show season. I was using it every other day. I think I will stop it for a while and see what happens. There vitamins in the grit and the pickstones I use. That should be enough.


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

i use them all ha ha grit pick pots and red cell and i mix in powdered milk when im feeling frisky to my yb team


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I to thought like you when I first started out 4 years ago with no sickness or deaths of young or old birds but that all changed one day. I got some new birds and didn't quarentine them and I have had my share of sick birds ever since that time I check droppings and have been able to keep things in check for a while now I don't think my birds are sick at this time. I am begining to think I overdosed them on red cell. I do still think like you do that less is better. I only use meds when I have to. I also think that you will not get away with out some sick birds forever.


I have to agree, it just seems you've had more than your share of bad luck this way. If you thought that too much Red Cell was really an issue Dr. Colin Walker has some good thoughts about balance in Vitamins and Minerals at http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/ And if you thought Salmonella or Paratyphoid could be the problem(which makes some sense) this is a good article, www.docstoc.com/docs/19452158/Paratyphoid-Revisited.
I've been in the livestock business my whole life and I can handle all of the mechanics of health care but when it comes to the actual science I have to defer to the Veterinarians.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Eggs with BLACK watery liquid,as said in original post is Parytyphoid....All this rubbish about redcell etc is just a mask for someone who doesn`t want to say the birds are sick...Wake up !!....Alamo
PS: I don`t give my breeders nothing but fresh water,clean grit everyday..NO vitamins,no redcell,no MEDICINE, NO nothing....I DO NOT GET BLACK WATERY EGGS...I DO NOT GET EGGS THAT DO NOT HATCH....I DO NOT GET BABIES DYING...I HARDLY EVER GET A CLEAR EGG...Just keep the birds as NATURAL as you can...Mother nature is a wonderfull thing...If you have to medicate your stock pigeons,you are NOT managing their well being properly,PERIOD !!!.......Alamo
PSS: Can`t tell you enough what NON pigeon people say when they see my pigeons and lofts...."Wow,your birds look so healthy"..."They are beautifull"..."They have purple and green neck color"..".I never knew pigeons had green and purple feathers"....."What`s that big White thing on their beak ??"....."Boy,are they chubby"...I know,I feed them to much...Oh well...Better chubby & healthy I guess !!


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

raftree3 said:


> I have to agree, it just seems you've had more than your share of bad luck this way. If you thought that too much Red Cell was really an issue Dr. Colin Walker has some good thoughts about balance in Vitamins and Minerals at http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/ And if you thought Salmonella or Paratyphoid could be the problem(which makes some sense) this is a good article, www.docstoc.com/docs/19452158/Paratyphoid-Revisited.
> I've been in the livestock business my whole life and I can handle all of the mechanics of health care but when it comes to the actual science I have to defer to the Veterinarians.


 I have Dr walkers book and have read it through several times.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It would be hard to make an accurate diagnosis based on some writings but It sounds to me like the eggs are being fertilised and the young are dying in the egg, Or maybe fertile eggs are going dud so early that they appear unfertilized but infact they were fertilized and the 1 or 2 day embrio died.

I would be trying to narrow down the options with the facts, From what I have read I suspect something is killing the birds in the egg, As mentioned by Kastle loft.

Google reasons for this, see if you find some similarities in your case or even better take some of the birds to a vet for testing.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Just read alamos last post, Agree 100%.

I've heard my friends say to other friends, Evan has green and purple pigeons, have you ever heard of that.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Petra said:


> I am new to this. I am trying to find an answer for my sick dove. How can a post a question? I rescued 2 white doves. One has gotten sick (fell off the perch, seizures, head twisting) I took him to the vet and she gave him antibiotic shots, saying he has an ear infection. 2 shots later, he is not better. He is very sensitive and his head is all the way bend back. He has periods where he seems better (eating, sitting on the perch) Can someone help me? thank you! Petra


 To post a question go to the section you want to post in and at the top left ther is a new thread button push it then write your question and the title.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> To post a question go to the section you want to post in and at the top left ther is a new thread button push it then write your question and the title



Buddy, I just gave them the same instruction on a different thread and then looked at their posts and realised they figured it out already and have started a thread.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

OK Thanks NZ


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I test the droppings this morning and they look good. I saw 4 cocci eggs in the whole slide and no worm eggs in fact this test looked better than any other I ever did. The droppings look normal all the time since I started using the ecol tonic. I handled the birds to see how they feel. They feel solid to me you could not feel the keel on them. In fact I went through all the shows this summer and the birds didn't feel or look this good I just give 6 birds away right before I paired them and the guy texted me to tell me he never saw birds in that good of heath, and he just texed me and said he has 10 yb from them already. I am thinking if anything I overdosed them on red cell. The bottle says 2 ounces daily for a horse, I put more than that on the feed every other day. I piched all the feed left in the feeders and started with just feed and water with probiotics in it for now. Does anyone know how long it may take to get their systems back to normal?


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## Lucky pigeon (Dec 5, 2012)

*Paired homing pigeons*

Helloo every one, a few days ago my female and male homing pigeons mated. They have made a nest in there box and are very loving to each other. As they have mated im sure it takes the female 10 days to hatch the eggs? 

Well i think i might of done something really wrong. As my hen has been in my loft for more than 2 weeks. I strarted training with her, the same day they actually had "sex". Is this wrong as she is mating. I took her to the end of the garden and let her go, she returned to the loft straight away. I was then going to do it a second time :/ so i boxed her up took her to the end of the garden and let her go. This time she flew onto the fence then the roof of the loft. She was on the loft roof for about 30 seconds then flew onto a mans van. As she walked about on the mans van she slipped which caused her to fly off. I thought she was dead meat, then i saw her flying around the loft, phew. She then dissaqpeared out of sight for about 45 mins. Then as it got dark she flew onto my house and was looking down at the loft, but didnt fly down to it. She then flew off. 

Then next day i thouht she would return, but she never did . Two days later i had a look around the niegbour hood and could see her perched on someones roof. There were other feral pigeons near her to.

Can a pigeon forget where its home is?

Will she still lay her eggs and care for them on her own?

Can a homing pigeon survive in the wild?

If i was too let her mate out could she spot him and return to the loft with him?

Will she die of a broken heart?

Will she be looking for her mate for the rest of her life or will she pair with a feral pigeon?


Thank you x


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Shady, I think you were using too much red cell as well. BUT, as said rotten or dark eggs is a bacteria. salmonella is one that causes poor hatching and dead embryos, it is detected from a culture..that has to grow and be looked at to see the strain and know what meds to use if it is positive..you may not see that just with a stain under the micro. you really should see if the eggs are fertile..if not then that may be the only problem..if the eggs are fertile and the embryos are dead then that is a seperate problem caused by bacteria.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Lucky pigeon said:


> Helloo every one, a few days ago my female and male homing pigeons mated. They have made a nest in there box and are very loving to each other. As they have mated im sure it takes the female 10 days to hatch the eggs?
> 
> Well i think i might of done something really wrong. As my hen has been in my loft for more than 2 weeks. I strarted training with her, the same day they actually had "sex". Is this wrong as she is mating. I took her to the end of the garden and let her go, she returned to the loft straight away. I was then going to do it a second time :/ so i boxed her up took her to the end of the garden and let her go. This time she flew onto the fence then the roof of the loft. She was on the loft roof for about 30 seconds then flew onto a mans van. As she walked about on the mans van she slipped which caused her to fly off. I thought she was dead meat, then i saw her flying around the loft, phew. She then dissaqpeared out of sight for about 45 mins. Then as it got dark she flew onto my house and was looking down at the loft, but didnt fly down to it. She then flew off.
> 
> ...



you are posting in the wrong thread..please make a new one..hope a mod can remove this.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> Shady, I think you were using too much red cell as well. BUT, as said rotten or dark eggs is a bacteria. salmonella is one that causes poor hatching and dead embryos, it is detected from a culture..that has to grow and be looked at to see the strain and know what meds to use if it is positive..you may not see that just with a stain under the micro. you really should see if the eggs are fertile..if not then that may be the only problem..if the eggs are fertile and the embryos are dead then that is a seperate problem caused by bacteria.


I broke all the eggs that were rotten and I did not see anything like an embryo in them just yellow rotten egg.When I said dark eggs I ment that when I candled them you could see yoke or something in half of the egg and like a air pocket on the other half or half the egg you could see through and half the light would not go through, I never saw any veins or anything.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I am having all kinds of breeding problems this year. I only had one egg hatch out of dozens. Some the birds would not sit on or would then stop after several days. Then some sit the entire 18 days and the eggs never hatched and were rotten, or they only lay one egg. I just canded the remaining eggs that are being sat on and I think they are bad too. Greek Boy said he had a similar problem and it was because he medicated before breeding. I have been giving my birds ecol tonic once a week and red cell vitamins every other day on the feed this is the only thing that I have done differently, could this be my problem? Thanks, any help would be greatly appreciated.


 Well you most definitely have a health problem. Now the cause is sheer conjecture. Would have to start with your entire health program, to find out what you are doing or not doing, besides giving them red cell every other day. Even something as innocent sounding as giving vitamins can have serious negative consequences. 

There are limitations in trying to help someone with sick birds by way of posting on a thread. Maybe if I was there I could spot it in 2 seconds, or maybe it could take weeks to sort it out. I just would urge caution, as many look to some sort of medicine bottle for their pigeon's health, and just willy nilly giving this and that could end up making things even worse. 

I don't know the answer, but I am always suspicious when people give horse supplements to pigeons. Not sure why people feel such things are necessary in the first place, but that is another thread. The down side to giving horse supplements is you better calculate your dosage correctly, or not hatching eggs could be the least of your problems. 

The real solution is to seek the help of a vet and have some lab work done. That may be the best and fastest way to get your bird's health back on track.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I am watching this thread with interest, Shadybug, as I admire your lofts and birds very much. They always look good and well cared for and you have been around pigeons for a while so obviously know a lot about them and their care. Personally I would be suspicious of the red blood cell supplements too. IMHO that is the problem (though also check your heating system and what you are using to clean your loft). If it were something like Paratyphoid there would still be development of the eggs though some squabs would die or not hatch. You say the adult birds "look" fine and in good condition. The only other thing that seems odd to me that you mentioned is that birds have stopped sitting early. Since there are no critters getting into your loft scaring them off the nest it seems like this is hormonal and it may be the same hormone effects that are effecting egg fertility (?). It is hormones that make the birds sit. Either way, your lofts/birds have all the necessities.....fresh air and access to sunshine and you are giving them fresh water and quality feed and access to grit. Those are all the basic things they need to stay healthy and reproduce. If it were me I would stop those extra supplements and see if things go back to normal. I even wonder if you need the extra heat and light. Probably not. I have only frillbacks now.......they are of course a more "fancy" breed and assumedly much more "delicate" than your birds which originated from homer stock. I am in cold NJ and our birds have continued to lay fertile eggs all winter without any help. No extra lighting and there have been weeks where the water was frozen twice a day. They are only getting good food, clean water and grit. I give vitamins in water maybe once a week. I am certainly not saying my way is better... ....my little coop is small and not nearly as nice as your set-up and my birds are probably even more crowded........but they have all they need and I bet too much of the supplement is effecting something in your guys. Good luck and keep updating.......we can all learn something from your experience here.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Woodnative said:


> I am watching this thread with interest, Shadybug, as I admire your lofts and birds very much. They always look good and well cared for and you have been around pigeons for a while so obviously know a lot about them and their care. Personally I would be suspicious of the red blood cell supplements too. IMHO that is the problem (though also check your heating system and what you are using to clean your loft). If it were something like Paratyphoid there would still be development of the eggs though some squabs would die or not hatch. You say the adult birds "look" fine and in good condition. The only other thing that seems odd to me that you mentioned is that birds have stopped sitting early. Since there are no critters getting into your loft scaring them off the nest it seems like this is hormonal and it may be the same hormone effects that are effecting egg fertility (?). It is hormones that make the birds sit. Either way, your lofts/birds have all the necessities.....fresh air and access to sunshine and you are giving them fresh water and quality feed and access to grit. Those are all the basic things they need to stay healthy and reproduce. If it were me I would stop those extra supplements and see if things go back to normal. I even wonder if you need the extra heat and light. Probably not. I have only frillbacks now.......they are of course a more "fancy" breed and assumedly much more "delicate" than your birds which originated from homer stock. I am in cold NJ and our birds have continued to lay fertile eggs all winter without any help. No extra lighting and there have been weeks where the water was frozen twice a day. They are only getting good food, clean water and grit. I give vitamins in water maybe once a week. I am certainly not saying my way is better... ....my little coop is small and not nearly as nice as your set-up and my birds are probably even more crowded........but they have all they need and I bet too much of the supplement is effecting something in your guys. Good luck and keep updating.......we can all learn something from your experience here.


I stopped the red cell 2 days ago. I am giving just seed, fresh water with probiotics, red grit,and pickstone for now and see if things change I may keep using the ecol tonic once a week my birds health changed for the better since I started using this stuff. I have tried about every thing out there in the last couple years trying to get the birds into better condition for the shows. I like the red cell I truly think I overdosed them. I have seen a difference in the birds condition for the better since i stared the red cell. I did start red grit in Dec that has all the vitamins in it maybe that with the red cell was to much. I did use the red cell last season but I didn't start it till July and breeding was almost over by then. I do want to say something about the ecol tonic, other than the red cell the tonic is the only thing that I have tried that I could see a definite change in the birds health, condition and the droppings, also in the tests of the droppings that I do on a regular bases.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

Simple thing like Iodine deficiency can cause all these problems,My suggestions to rule-out , in decreasing order of priority will be :
1.Iodine deficiency (Leads to hypothyroidism---->Infertility)
2.Humidity problems in the loft
3.Parathyroid carrying adult birds,which may look completely healthy.
*Treatment : *
1.Try supplementing Iodine as well as Vitamin E
2.Give the birds bath on the day when eggs are supposed to hatch.
3.Test the poop(poop culture) for paratyphoid and treat them,if the test is positive


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Boneyrajan.k......Your wasting your time telling this guy his birds have *Parathyroid...*HE WILL NOT LISTEN to you or me...He`s asking for HELP...And he will not listen !!You are 110% correct...A pigeon or two can be a CARRIER,and NEVER be sick....I had a hen that way years ago...It was a "Gift" from a pigeon friend of mine...Had to get rid of the bird !!......Never had a Black Egg again !!!
Alamo


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I may have jumped the gun slightly, although I did have a lot of infertle eggs one of the eggs I said didn't look good that was half dark and half clear just hatched today. I have 6 due in the next week so lets see what happens. All the hens are ybs so maybe their not sitting on them enough and they never start developing. The baby that hatched last week is a single and he is growing like crazy. I will keep you posted on the outcome of the other eggs.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Alamo said:


> Boneyrajan.k......Your wasting your time telling this guy his birds have *Parathyroid...*HE WILL NOT LISTEN to you or me...He`s asking for HELP...And he will not listen !!You are 110% correct...A pigeon or two can be a CARRIER,and NEVER be sick....I had a hen that way years ago...It was a "Gift" from a pigeon friend of mine...Had to get rid of the bird !!......Never had a Black Egg again !!!
> Alamo


That black egg I was talking about just hatched. I do listen to what every one says but if you noticed just on this post there is 20 different opinions on what may be the problem I value everyones opinion but I am here with the birds and you are there guessing what may be wrong without even seeing the birds. Beleave me I understand sickness, Thats all I have been studying in the last year I even went to the expense of getting a microscope and every thing that goes with it and I will say its the best thing I ever did, saved a couple birds since then. Most fanciers don't do this and most fanciers I know just let the birds die and say Im losing a lot of birds this year but I don' know why and then never do anything else and I am talking about top breeders.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Alamo, I reread my post I never said my eggs were black I said dark and what I ment was you couldn't see through them. The ones I looked at, half looked like an air sack or clear and half you could't see through or dark and it just hatched so I spoke to soon on these I guess. You have to understand I'm sitting here reading 50 million awnsers to a questions that realy didn't get awnsered which was can you overdose birds on red cell.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Alamo, I reread my post I never said my eggs were black I said dark and what I ment was you couldn't see through them. The ones I looked at, half looked like an air sack or clear and half you could't see through or dark and it just hatched so I spoke to soon on these I guess. You have to understand I'm sitting here reading 50 million awnsers to a questions that realy didn't get awnsered which was can you overdose birds on red cell.


embyo's candle as a dark mass, why are you candling so late and making assumptions? IF you just have to candle do so at 7 days of incubation, see what you need then take notes, then leave them alone, now Im wondering what all this means. I think you need to take a simple approach to breeding, lay off candling, all the extra stuff with heat and all and just let them do their thing. never throw an egg out that is not over at least 24 days from the time it was first sat on usually when the second egg is layed.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Happy to hear the "Black" egg hatched..But beware of any eggs that don`t conform to what it should be...I don`t have a microscope...Never felt the need to have one..I am no doctor,but I have very good vision...What my eyes see is,healthy males fighting for territory,hens fighting for the grit tray and it`s contents,bright white wattles,clean feet,shiney green/purple necks,willingness to eat,constant movement,and most of all,GREAT looking droppings !!.......Alamo


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> embyo's candle as a dark mass, why are you candling so late and making assumtions? IF you just have to candle do so at 7 days of incubation, see what you need then take notes, then leave them alone, now Im wondering what all this means. I think you need to take a simple approach to breeding, lay off candling, all the extra stuff with heat and all and just let them do their thing. never throw an egg out that is not over at least 24 days from the time it was first sat on usually when the second egg is layed.


 I reason I candled the eggs this late was because I had the rotten ones and I wanted to see if they had chicks in them. I don't think I candled any eggs last year. I usually don't bother the birds at all, most of the time I never enter the loft itself during the cold days because i don't want them to leave the eggs alone that long. I wait 5 days overdue till I pull the eggs and check them.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Alamo, I reread my post I never said my eggs were black I said dark and what I ment was you couldn't see through them. The ones I looked at, half looked like an air sack or clear and half you could't see through or dark and it just hatched so I spoke to soon on these I guess. You have to understand I'm sitting here reading 50 million awnsers to a questions that realy didn't get awnsered which was can you overdose birds on red cell.


Yes you can, if you should give a horse 2oz a day and you give them one cap full unless you have a 500 hundred pound pigeon I would say that is too much. It would be like you taking your vitamins don't take one a day take the whole bottle every day. If you are feeding 50 pigeons 4 or 5 drops in the water would be plenty.
Dave


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> Yes you can, if you should give a horse 2oz a day and you give them one cap full unless you have a 500 hundred pound pigeon I would say that is too much. It would be like you taking your vitamins don't take one a day take the whole bottle every day. If you are feeding 50 pigeons 4 or 5 drops in the water would be plenty.
> Dave


 I agree, I'm not saying my birds can't get sick. They can and have been before. From the droppings and the look of the bird to the droppings test, I do know I can't diagnose everything but I can some things like cocci and worms. There eating and drinking fine. I truly don't think the birds are sick at this time so that leaves the red cell or the ecol tonic and who nows whats in that. I would like to know if anyone uses it during the breeding season so I could eliminate that. If anyone has I would like to here from them. Thanks


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Alamo, I reread my post I never said my eggs were black I said dark and what I ment was you couldn't see through them. The ones I looked at, half looked like an air sack or clear and half you could't see through or dark and it just hatched so I spoke to soon on these I guess. You have to understand I'm sitting here reading 50 million awnsers to a questions that realy didn't get awnsered which was *can you overdose birds on red cell.*


 The answer to your question is yes you can overdose your birds on Red Cell, or any other supplement for that matter.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I agree, I'm not saying my birds can't get sick. They can and have been before. From the droppings and the look of the bird to the droppings test, I do know I can't diagnose everything but I can some things like cocci and worms. There eating and drinking fine. *I truly don't think the birds are sick at this time *so that leaves the red cell or the ecol tonic and who nows whats in that. *I would like to know if anyone uses it during the breeding season so I could eliminate that.* If anyone has I would like to here from them. Thanks


 I have produced numerous healthy baby pigeons year in and year out, and never once were they ever given horse supplements. If you don't think your birds are sick, then you should have good hatch ability, and bunches of big fat happy baby pigeons in your loft.

Birds which are suffering from toxic overdoses of vitamins, if that is the case, then they are just as sick as a bird with a bacterial or viral infection. Say for sake of discussion you are not doing your birds any favors with the toxic levels of Red Cell, that still does not explain the birds leaving and not sitting eggs.

And yes, you ask a question on a thread such as this and you will get 20+ different answers and ideas. I suspect there could be numerous things that could cause some of your issues. Which is why I suggested getting medical help. If I or a family member became ill, I would seek out expert medical assistance. At least I wouldn't go onto a blog and attempt a diagnosis for the sick family member, by way of the Internet. 

If you don't have a local avian vet that has worked with pigeons before, then I would seek out a more experienced pigeon fancier nearby, who could stop by and look at your birds. Many inexperienced pigeon fanciers are unable to distinguish a very healthy pigeon from one which is not in form. So an on site expert, IMHO, is worth 20 on a blog site, as they can see what is going on.

At the end of the day, the greatest pigeon fanciers in the world, are those who are able to maintain their birds in outstanding health year round, and when racing they are able to get their birds into peak form and Super Health. And many of these are able to do this with very little medical help. 

Your possible problems with Red Cell, is why the great racing pigeon fancier Ad Schaerlaeckens once suggested that new fanciers stay away from medicines and vitamins as more often then not, they will do much more harm then any possible good. 

http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks Warren, Thats what I wanted to hear. I know how much I was using so i'm almost sure I did. In fact if i had horses instead of pigeons i think they would have been overdosed to. I watched a video on youtube that showed a guy with a coffee can of feed then he just dumped some red cell in and mixed it up every day. I think it may have been hawkbait lofts video but im not sure. Time will tell I stopped using it for now. Thanks again


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Thanks Warren, Thats what I wanted to hear. I know how much I was using so i'm almost sure I did. In fact if i had horses instead of pigeons i think they would have been overdosed to. I watched a video on youtube that showed a guy with a coffee can of feed then he just dumped some red cell in and mixed it up every day. I think it may have been hawkbait lofts video but im not sure. Time will tell I stopped using it for now. Thanks again


 You may have been lucky. I don't know about this particular product, but some things you could have very easily blew out their kidneys and ended up with a bunch of dead birds. If ever in doubt in the future, then don't do it. With some things birds can be very sensitive to even the very minute concentrations.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I have produced numerous healthy baby pigeons year in and year out, and never once were they ever given horse supplements. If you don't think your birds are sick, then you should have good hatch ability, and bunches of big fat happy baby pigeons in your loft.
> 
> Birds which are suffering from toxic overdoses of vitamins, if that is the case, then they are just as sick as a bird with a bacterial or viral infection. Say for sake of discussion you are not doing your birds any favors with the toxic levels of Red Cell, that still does not explain the birds leaving and not sitting eggs.
> 
> ...


My thoughts about medication

Paratyphoid and other nightmares

When I was cleaning the attic I found a box full of packets that contained medicine for pigeons. It was a gift from my friend the late Mt Lin Yun Ta.
None of the packets had even been opened so I threw that costly rubbish away.
This medication I read was against:
Coccidioses, worms, canker, paratyphoid, respiratory problems (different stuff), Coli, Circo virus, stress, for a good moult and so on.
Why did I threw it away?
My friend meant well but I just do not need at all that stuff.

QUESTIONS
It made me think of some e-mails I get.
There are e-mails such as the following:
- I have bought good birds and what I need now is good medicine. Can you advise me Mr Ad?
Or
- I want to become a pigeon fancier. Can you advise me where to buy birds and what medicine I need to be a successful racer?
And more similar questions.
It seems that many people, especially foreigners, strongly believe that medicine is something you absolutely need to be successful in this sport.
This is far from true.
You need good birds, of course. And for those birds you need a loft, food, a timer and a good handler. Medicine you only need just in case. And this does not often happen to good pigeon men.

SICKNESSES
I would not say that birds cannot get sick but this is far less common than people think. Especially those fanciers that often medicate get the most health problems with their birds. And the bad thing is that they often medicate against something that the birds are not suffering from.
On a longer term they are literally killing their family.
The champions in Holland and Belgium who say that they seldom medicate are not all liars as some think.
Moreover: Why medicate when birds are in good shape?
Do you yourself take medicine when you are healthy?
Fanciers tend to forget that medicine is created to cure birds that are sick and not to make birds fly faster. 
Furthermore medication is often done in the wrong way.
Medicine in the drinker in very cold weather (in winter) is useless since birds hardly drink then. In very hot weather less of the medicine should be given since birds drink very much then.
Furthermore some medicate only part of their birds when something is wrong.
This is a big mistake. They should ALL be treated at the same time.
And… many fanciers medicate too shortly. One period of 6 days is better than 2 periods of 3 days. Cures of one day against whatever disease, are useless and dangerous! 

Coccidioses:
I never treat against it. Only birds that are weakened by something else may have coccidioses, especially when kept in a humid loft.
Paratyphoid is often accompanied by coccidioses.
Birds that come from a hard race and are weakened may have coccidioses.
Give them a rest, put them in a dry environment and the coccidioses will go away without any treatment.

Canker
Canker was a real problem for many in the past.
A few years ago vets complained and feared that they could not keep it under control because of an ever increasing resistance.
And what happened?
Today it is no problem any more for a lot of fanciers. The last time that I treated my birds is now 5 years ago. I have stuff in the house though, just in case. But so far I did not need it.

Worms
I never treated against worms either, though it must be said, they may be a problem. But it is pretty rare and of course, if pigeons have worms you have to medicate.

Adeno/Coli
Are mostly mentioned together since there is often a combination of the two.
Having your birds tested on Coli is useless since I know the answer beforehand:
Positive since all birds have Coli.
Adeno may be a serious problem though since it is a virus. The medicine the vet will give is against Coli since an abundance of these bacteria creates the problem of Adeno and once the coli are eliminated you have a greater chance of getting your birds healthy again soon. And 3 days only water, no food at all.

Respiratory problems
Are a nightmare for many, especially for those who medicate! They fall into a circle.
Medication is the first step to get infected birds soon again.
The question should not be how to cure the birds but how to prevent an outbreak.
A good loft is really important for that.
Nevertheless you sometimes may have problems but very seldom. In that case you need a vet indeed. Never give medicine without his advice. For the common fancier it is very difficult to see if the problem is herpes, Chlamydia, ornithose and so on.

Moult
So my cabinet contained also stuff to help the birds through the moult. I do not believe in it either, nor do I believe in special food mixtures to help birds through the moult smoothly. Healthy birds will moult without all that. It is in their nature. If there is anything that maybe useful it is Sedochol. 

PARATYPHOID
According to dr. De Weerd and some colleagues the most serious thing you have to watch out for is paratyphoid.
I need not describe the symptoms, they are well known.
Why Salmonella must be taken so serious?
Because pigeons that look healthy and even achieve well may be carriers of the bacteria and spread the disease.
In case of an infection you have no other choice than to take action.
That means you have to cure for about 8 days (Baytril has the preference of many scientists) then you should needle the birds and cure them again.
This should be repeated, some say after a month, others say after half a year. The year that follows you should do the same twice and the following years only once.

WATCH OUT
As you will see the birds will suffer a lot from the injection if it is done with Colombovac PT. It may take them a week to recover.
But that is what it looks like. 
Many fanciers found that they got problems when they started breeding with these birds 3 weeks after the injection.
It is too early. Birds are only completely recovered the day that you find lots of little feathers in the loft. This may be 6 weeks or more after the injection.
The same we often see with Adeno/Coli.
Fanciers medicate the birds, after a week or so they look good again and they begin to train or race them.
The result may be that many young birds get lost.
They should have more patience. You may only put the birds in the baskets again when they fly spontaneously for at least an hour or when they take a bath.

FINALLY
I often write that giving our pigeons vitamins is a waste, even after a treatment.
This winter I spoke with several vets and scientist.
They all agree.
Most of them are in favour of Electrolytes and minerals.
Dr. Stijn Gijsbrechts even says that after a cure against paratyphoid Electrolytes are very useful provided they do not contain vitamins.
So dear fellow pigeon fancier:
Believe in the good birds and not in good medicine. I know lots of fanciers, simple people without much education, who hardly know the names of all those sicknesses or medicine but who are hard to beat in the races.
I am sure you also know such people. 

ONE MORE REMARK:
Never needle birds that suffer from Paratyphoid without a treatment with antibiotics like Baytril before!

© Ad Schaerlaeckens


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

http://youtu.be/rrqUOvAKxLo


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