# Top beak gone, neuro damage too??



## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi All - 

We're new - found a beautiful, young (we think) pigeon who is missing the top beak - obviously was torn off in who knows what kind of horribe accident or attack, also left side leg & wing not workig well - she (guessing here) lurches aroubd like a drunken sailor - maybe neurological damage?

She will drink water in a deep bowl & tried to peck seeds but that won't work obviously. I can't get her to eat cat food in a slurry (vet's idea) with or without oil - doesn't seem to want sugar water, snorted repeatedly when I tried sugar water with a little salt - perhaps it hit some raw flesh.

We're worried she's going too long without food, can feel her breast bone. I hate to try to get her mouth open - there was much crusted blood initally, that is now all washed off. I think at least part of the tongue is missing too.

I tried to look up Splitbeak's story - can't remember the posting member's name.

Any suggestions??

She seems pretty tame.

Lynn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi widget, 




If her system is able to handle Seeds, I would gently see about putting one Seed at-a-time into her Mouth, and far enough 'back' for her to swallow.

Proper 'Pigeon Mix' would have various Peas and so on to use for this...

If you have none, then White Safflower Seed, unpopped plain small size Pop-Corn...would work...


The alternative is to tube fee appropriate formulas, which might not be easy if you are not used to doing so.


I personally would not try feeding any 'Cat food'...or any 'wet' slurp-slurry stuff which she could choke on or have problems clearing out of her throat.



Monitor the poops starting now ( how many in 24 hours, how they seem color wise, consitancy wise...) and having her on a light color towel would make this easy to do.

If she is very thin, ad in an airconitioned home, have her someplace fee of drafts, and even provide positive warmth if possible, vi a Heating Pad under the Towel...with anough 'floor' room for her to be on or off of it as she chooses.


Just a 'pinch of Salt and one of Sugar into a Teacup of "tepid" Water should do for her Drinking water, and she should not object to that concentration.


If no poops are being made presently, she may be too starved to be on solid Food and should be tube-fed an easily digested formula instead, but if she is adequately hydrated she can probably muddle along with appropriate Seeds, if you can find a way to kindly help her eat them.

A Teaspoon worth for now, would do well, and another in 8 hours.


She should be examined if possible by an experienced Bird rehabber or Avian Vet to determine whether her injurys recommend antibiotics or sutures, and, for the Wing to be evaluated for a splint if it is broken.


Tanks for helping this little Pigeon..!


Post some imags if you can..


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Boy, that sounds rough! Here's a link to a bird that's missing the top beak for a year now:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ol-one-beak-amp-scissors-26245.html

For awhile, at least, you're probably going to need to get the stuff for tube-feeding and learn how. Here's a link for that:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pictures-amp-videos-of-tube-feeding-16235.html

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Welcome to Pigeon Talk. 
Thank you so very much for taking in & caring for this most unfortunate bird.

Could you please let us know your general location, as there may be a member or rehabber nearby that can assist you.

Secondly, if you haven't already do so, please click on the following link & review the thread. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-dove-vital-basic-steps-8822.html
These steps are very easy to follow & extremely vital.

If you are able to get some photos, that will help greatly.

There is usually someone logged on at all times so please post any questions you might have.

Wishing you & your little patient the very best. 

Cindy


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi all - 

Thanks so much for your (&everyone's) quick & helpful replies.

Here's an update & pics (if I can figure out how to post them:

Things look encouraging...........

We covered her tub last night with a black cloth & she made no noise until we uncovered her this morning, I think that might mean she got more sleep. The last 2 nights before we could hear her scrabbling around now and then. I

I tried putting a low-wattage lamp on one side of the tub, last night, in case she was too cold, she moved away from it so we took it out, thinking it would interfere with her sleep because of the bright light.

She's not sitting all "puffed out" the way birds do when thier cold.

She's so smart, she's learning to lean against the side of the tub & against the small branches I braced in the tub to hold herself upright and get around. She tries to use her right foot (the more functional one) to try to clear her beak during snorting episodes (new behavior). I observed her actually standing with her weight on the left foot, also new behavior, as well as opening her mouth wide 3 times (new).

Also she's using her wings more, which seems great as the first 2 days she moved the left not at all & the right very little.

She's able to make it over to her water bowl & drink unassisted (yeah!). We siliconed a small deep bowl to a heavy piece of shale so she can't tip it over & fill it deep, like 2". She puts her whole bill & face below the watr line & I can see what look like swallowing motions in her neck.

Are in the process of doing that with another bowl with the idea of filling it deep with seed. I had that bowl in with her & she pecked at it many times but I couldn't see any seeds get into her mouth. Maybe she'll figure out how to dip into the seeds and let them roll into her mouth to eat. So far, placing a single seed on the bottom bill hasn't been successfull. I am hoping the sugar water will give her enough energy & brain function to learn.

I'll keep trying with the single seeds. I can still see what looks like fresh bleeding in her feather as the edge of her mouth, but she IS opening the mouth which may have been too painful to do before (?).

No more slurry stuff, that was unsuccessful and I don't want her to learn to associate the dropper with anything negative, it may be her only option for concentrated sugar water for now, although I will make her drinking water the way you suggested, as well.

I dropper fed her sugar (only) water - she is putting her bill up for it, she took 3 full droppers. I made it fairly rich (before I read the posts) thinking her need for food ispretty high by now. Sometimes she'll start "snorting" during this process which I assume is to clear her nostrils. She'll also go over to the water bowl & take a deep drink at this point, which seems to stop the snorting.

I will read the stuff you-all sent, I doubt there is much in the way of bird-rescue resources down here - we are in southern Utah, near Zion canyon - it's old-school & conservative, heck organics are still viewed with suspicion by many............ 

If you-all know of anyone near please let me know. The vet really didn't know much.

About poops - the first 2 days she had at least 2, not runny or thick, white & grey-ish, since last night, one smaller & the same color and consistancy.

Off to read you links now.

Best - 

Lynn

PS - I'll post pics in a few minutes.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Lynn,

Try making the thin slurry and just allow her to drink it on her own as she is drinking water. If you are using watered down bird formula it will give her the extra nutrients she needs.

She will need to eat a tablespoon of pigeon seed at least a couple of times a day, with or without help, it will be easier once she learns to scoop seed in her beak.

Here is our wildlife resource link, not sure if it will be useful for you.

http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Trying 1st pic


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Crap! Didn't work.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How are you trying to post it?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Widget,




Instead of sugar water consider to use any unsweetened fruit juice, possibly cutting it 50/50 with Water.


She needs food...2 poops yesterday, and she will soon be excreting 'bile' ( looks like dabs of 'green' paint ) and her system will get so far down that solid food - if further delays - will possibly harm her once it is managed.

Or is 'bile' what you are seeing so far for 'poops'?


Can you describe what poops you have seen so far?


If she can open her mouth, please work with her to get actual whole, wholesome Seeds into her...one at a time, and with your finger tip, see if you can co-ordinate her willingness to open her mouth, with your adriot and delicate finger-tip pushing of the Seed, pushing it far enough into her Throat, for her to swallow.

If you can, please consider to obtain a proper 'Pigeon Mix' ( any Farm or Feed Store ) which has various convenient sizes of round dried whole Peas, small whole Corn, Milo/Sorgum and so on...


If you can not find any, then at least see about going to a 'Pet Smart' or someplace which sells Bird Seeds anyway, and, get some 'White Safflower' Seeds.

Possibly I or someone else here could send you a few pounds of 'Pigeon Mix' if you can not find any locally...let me know, I'd be happy to send you some.


Any Grocery Store will also have small, whole "Corn" of the kind used in old fashioned Pop Corn making ( NOT the 'microwave' kind )...get the smallest size Kernal kind you can find.


Any Health Food store will have 'Goji Berrys', semi-dry, in a little plastic pouch-bag. Easy to get 'on-line' if Utah is shy on Health Food Stores carrying them.


Get these three things...and...


Pre-soak a few Goji Berrys...have a few kernals of the two Seed kinds handy ( dry ) , and if need be, gently wrap her 'like a Burrito' in a small hand Towel, 'spigot' her vertically between your thighs as you sit in a Chair, so she is just behind your knees, so your hands are free, spigoting her so you are only gripping the excess Towel and her Tail behind your knees, and NOT her Body...


And, sitting thusly, with both hands free, see if you can work with her to get one Seed, or half-a-Berry at-a-time ( Berry to be pre soaked for a half hour in Water, and cut in half ) into her Throat for her to swallow.

Get ten each of these three items into her, and, repeat every three or four hours till bed time.


Do this, and very soon she will learn to co-operate with it, so that the next step, is to be doing this with her simply standing, and from there, once that phase is astered, you can work with a small deep cup of Seeds.




She likely CAN learn this, and rapidly.


She is extremely unlikely to learn to self feed in a deep dish, untill progressive steps have been mastered by her, which can lead up to that, which steps can begin as described ( one Seed or half-Berry at a time, into her Throat )



You want to be seeing 20 or more poops-a-day if possible. 40 in a day is wonderful, if you can get it to happen.

"2" yesterday...she is starving, and there will be problems because of it.


If you do have a Farm or Feed Store near you, get a Bag of 'Pigeon Mix'...( still get the Goji Berrys at a Health Food Store or 'on-line' if you have no Health Food stores near you ) and while there, at the Farm or Feed Store, get a packet of 'Eletrolytes and Vitamines' - this is a powder in a small packet for Farm or Livestock use and costs like six bucks and makes however many hundred Gallons of Solution.


Use a scant half Teaspoon for a Gallon of Water, and have 'that' be her Drinking Water every other day for the time being.


Do these things, and she and you should make out fine, and be headed nicely toward her continued progress.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Okay - still working on the pics.....

I have a hot water bottle in a towel up against the side of the tub & put her up against it, she's staying there.

I could put her on the back porch - it's hot out there in the afternoon - like 100 degrees (we live in the desert) - would that be too hot for her?

Am looking at the tube feeding vids - I can handle that, trying to find pigeon mix, in leiu of that I can use the wild bird mix they had at the pet store for now, it's better than nothing, I assume. 

I'll also try making a thin slurry & see if she'll drink it like the water as Treesa suggested.

I read the basic care, she's alert, drinking, not puffed out so I think we're past those dangers at the moment.

She's really calm and easy to handle, I thought that might be becasue she was in shock but it's not changing so far, nice.

Anything else?

Thanks!

Lynn


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

I used the URL from my computer, and the icon just above in the posting window.

My next move is to get Photoshop re-installed on my machine (as soon as my computer whiz sone gets home from the movies, my puter just came through rehab from virus attack & not everything's back on it yet), crunch the image, upload to Vendio (I used to do eBay) and use thier URL.

Do you know an easier way? I'm not a computer whiz but I am teachable .

Thanks,

Lynn


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Okay - 

Nobody has pigeon mix, (will you send me some asap?) not the farm supply or the local Petco, and this is typical of this area - but Petco does have white sunflower seeds. We'll go get some as soon as we've eaten lunch - I've been on this pegeon thing since I got up, I really hope she can make it.

I've dispatched my husband to the health food store for Goji berries and will get them soaking & feed her in a half an hour, before we go get seeds. 

I work with teenaged girls at risk, anorexics included and know what happens when starvation sets in too far.

Will go with the fruit juice at half concentration.

Will cover the bottom of her tub with a white towel also as to be able to monitor poops accurately.

Wll look at Petco for the vit/electrolyte mix & IFA (farm supply) if Petco doesn't have it.

Just got off the phone with Petco again, they do have that mix.

Time for me to eat & we'll take a run into town - it's half an hour here to anywhere that has anything.

Thanks, Phil, for your help.

Best - 

Lynn


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lynn, if you'll click on your name "Widget", you see an option to create a photo album. Easy to upload. No resizing or anything...............


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Great!

I posted 3 pics of the Widget - 2 close ups - anyone have any other feedback based on these images?

Thanks!

Lynn


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Widget said:


> * *Are in the process of doing that with another bowl with the idea of filling it deep with seed.*
> 
> ** *I had that bowl in with her & she pecked at it many times but I couldn't see any seeds get into her mouth.*
> *Maybe she'll figure out how to dip into the seeds and let them roll into her mouth to eat.*
> ...


Hi Lynn,
It sounds like you are doing a great job of caring for this little one. 

* Yes. By all means, offer her a deep dish of seeds.

** If she was able to peck at the seeds originally, then she knows how to eat. It's very possible the dish wasn't deep enough.

Even if she needs a bit of assistance with feeding, still keep the deep dish of seeds available to her.

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Asside from the coloration, looks a lot like Ol' One Beak. Ol' One Beak hasn't learned how to eat from a deep dish in over a year, by the way.

Pidgey


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

OMG - 

We sat down the force feed her and (I can hardly believe this ) when I pulled her mouth open her top beak came out. It's till there - I guess it was jammed down her throat - it's kind of bent to the side. 

I got a couple Goji berries & a corn kernal down her & we stopped & put her in her tub with a bowl of grain to see if she could peck it up.

She's shaking her head back and forth alot - I guess it might have hurt when i handled it trying to get more food down here.

Phil - 2 poops in about an hour, both DO have green in them, a bit of white, large mass of dark (may be green, hard to tell) & clearly green where thinner.

Should I go to tube feeding at this point?

I am concerned that I may be exacerbating her injury by having to handle her upper beak to feed her seed by seed.

Perhaps she'll eat on her own by pecking, we're watching her to see if she'll move that direction.

She did take a big drink right after I put her back in her tub.

Wow - what a twist - an potentially much better prognosis for her.

Crossed fingers here.

Best - 

Lynn


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Am posting pics of the newly emreged beak...........


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That happens sometimes--it's usually because they rammed into something at a pretty good clip. Let's hope it heals okay. I was wondering what that was below the "chin" but the picture wasn't clear enough to really see it.

Pidgey


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

BTW - 

The red color all over is Goji berry.......... there does seem to be a "scab" on the top of the beak, perhaps damage to the beak, her nostrils or what?

She's pretty bothered still right now, head pulled in, intemittant head shaking, eyes closed unless there's a noise............

I don't know if it's more important to try to get more food down her & risk shocking her out or let her calm down and see if she'll eat on her own. Any feedback on that?

I posted pics of the beak.........

Best - 

Lynn


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thank you so much for helping this poor pigeon. It sounds like you're doing all the right things. I'm not a rehabber and haven't dealt with this type of injury, but hopefully one of our rehabber members can advise you as to the chances of her beak healing. From what I could see in the photos it looks better than I imagined from your initial description. As to feeding her, I'd let her rest briefly and then try again. It really is crucial to get some nutrition in her, as you know. I _have_ tube-fed pigeons and once the beak is open the rest goes pretty easily. As you said, I think it's less trauma than prying her beak open for each seed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Widget said:


> BTW -
> 
> The red color all over is Goji berry.......... there does seem to be a "scab" on the top of the beak, perhaps damage to the beak, her nostrils or what?
> 
> ...



Hi Lynn, 



I am very glad for everyone's sake ( hers most of all ! ) that her Beak WAS still there afterall..!


Oh my...!


Yes, this does happen sometimes, and I have had them this way, where for presumably having flown into somehting head-on, their Upper Beak bends and is pushed back on impact, and ends up trapped, bent inside, sometimes pushing down and out through their lower Beak even.


This is painful of course, and even being 'out' now it has to be hurting a great deal and feeling injured for the time being.


She might be able to peck soon, this evening or something to-morrow...but in the mean time, maybe just provide her with say 'Canary Seed' or 'Finch Seed' ( I know, another trip to 'Petsmart' ! ) and she might find the tiny Seeds to be managable for some possibly successful pecking, till she feels better and till the swelling and contusion has subsided, and the injury has ironed out a little more.


Very good news her Beak is still there...


If it does not seem too fragile or tender, you could try gently putting Seeds and Berry-halves one-at-a-time of course, into her Throat, as we reviewed earlier...just to get her going Nutrition wise...and this would be a practica thing to do and far easier and safer under the circumstance than trying to 'tube feed'.


Best wishes!


Good luck..!


Oh, still happy to send you some 'Pigeon Mix' - 


Just e-mail me your address and I will send a few pounds on Monday


[email protected]


( pdp-'one', not a lower case "L" )



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> Thank you so much for helping this poor pigeon. It sounds like you're doing all the right things. I'm not a rehabber and haven't dealt with this type of injury, but hopefully one of our rehabber members can advise you as to the chances of her beak healing. From what I could see in the photos it looks better than I imagined from your initial description. As to feeding her, I'd let her rest briefly and then try again. It really is crucial to get some nutrition in her, as you know. I _have_ tube-fed pigeons and once the beak is open the rest goes pretty easily. As you said, I think it's less trauma than prying her beak open for each seed.




Hi Birdmom4ever, 



The ones I have had whose upper Beaks had been driven back, and, 'in' and were in fact punched through their middle lower Beak, and were stuck that way...


They all healed fine, and after a week or so you'd never know anything had happenned.


Meanwhile, once one gets the upper Beak 'out' of it's perdicament, they are of course seriously contused and strained and sore from it, and the swelling and pain takes a while to subside.


The ones I have had did manage to be pecking very soon after their Beak was liberated.

I may or may not have done 'Seed-Pops' and 'Berry-Pops', I don't remember right now, but, of course, since the Pigeon has not been able to eat during their time of being in that condition, getting some proper chow into them is a desireable thing to do.


The 'Berrys' are very good antioxidents and are cleansing to their system's toxicty from fasting, and are very nutritiousand a good 'energy' food also.


So, those, and basic 'Seeds' should be fine for any Pigeon who is not excessively starved where only liquid foods would be the de-rigeur pro-tem.




Phil
l v


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Good idea, Phil. Small seeds are easier to eat and canary mix is very high in protein, too.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Widget said:


> * *She's pretty bothered still right now, head pulled in, intemittant head shaking, eyes closed unless there's a noise*............
> 
> ** *I don't know if it's more important to try to get more food down her & risk shocking her out or let her calm down and see if she'll eat on her own. Any feedback on that?*
> 
> ...


She's a little beauty. 
That *is* good news that she still has her upper beak. 

* If she did slam into something, it's highly probable she has suffered some type of head trauma, which would account for her odd behavior. Just a thought.

** The fact you mentioned she *was* eating out of a dish, tells me it's very possible she will again eat on her own. A deep dish of seeds will help out considerably.

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wow! I had a pigeon like that a couple of years ago: http://www.rims.net/2006Oct08 .. mine made a quick and complete recovery. I hope Widget does likewise. Widget is a gorgeous pigeon!

Terry


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Well...............

Things are looking better and better here  

At Petco we got "Kaytee exact hand feeding formula for all baby birds" - having heard it mentioned in the tube feeding video - and mixed it up using Pedialyte to a fairly thin consistancy and then fed it by sticking a dropper in the side of her mouth, holding her head up gently & squeezing it in. We were rewarded with swallowing!!!

I gave her about 3 dropper-fulls, had to squeeze her jaws to get the mouth open enough and noticed she was starting to shake her head again quite a bit. I thought we should go slow as her system has been starved for these days so we quit for awhile to let her digest and rest.

We'll feed again in an hour or so & a couple more times before bed time.

She IS trying to peck, so we'll get little seed tomorrow and keep feeding this stuff till we can see for sure she's getting seeds down.

She looks a little more stable on her feet and can get around her tub at will, although still looking kind of drunk, I assume her head probably DID get a big whack when whatever happened to her happened. As she's improved in the last 3 days, with no nutrition, I am hoping perhaps she'll eventually get back to releasable shape as her body gets enough energy to recover

She is bright eyed and alert & mostly hangs out leaning up against her hot water bottle. We are seeing grooming behaviors, preening feathers & cleaning beak with her right foot. 
She seems to have a sweet, calm spirit.

Has pooped again, less volume, still green with white in it, fairly runny.

Will keep you updated. I have to work a long shift tomorrow, so Lance will keep up the feeding and reporting.

So very grateful for everyone's help - she wouldn't have made it without you-all. 
Phil - I am sending you my addy for bird seed - It's so weird that there is none down here - but that's southern Utah for you.

I don't know for sure how long she'll need to be fed - maybe you can give guidelines for that as time goes on.

Best - 

Lynn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

LOL...I had a bird like this last summer. She had flown into the side of the house and pushed her beak inside. It was the oddest thing I'd ever seen. Once It was pulled out, she was just fine and I let her go. I'm glad this was the same thing. Much better than loosing a beak.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 



Looks like yours had the upper Beak punch 'through' the center of the lower Beak, as the ones I have had were.


This just hurts so much to think about..!


Ohhhhhhhh, yeeeeeeeesh...

It is amazing their upper Beak can be THAT flexible..!


I remember having the impression that the ones I had were very relieved to have it brought back 'out' again...



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are actually some bones in there that have to heal. Phil's got a picture of a skull that can illustrate that. But... don't worry--you don't need to splint it.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> There are actually some bones in there that have to heal. Phil's got a picture of a skull that can illustrate that. But... don't worry--you don't need to splint it.
> 
> Pidgey


The one I had was actually great after. She drank a long time and started eating right away...kind of shook her head like...thank God that's over! I still see her nearly everyday.


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## the bird man (Jun 18, 2008)

widget looks like a beautiful bird do you think you can post a full body picture


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> There are actually some bones in there that have to heal. Phil's got a picture of a skull that can illustrate that. But... don't worry--you don't need to splint it.
> 
> Pidgey




Here ye go -

( there is a series of images )

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1469526151067835264NdOfaA



It is completely amazing to me that they can sustain an injuty of this kind, and be alright once someone helps them get the darned thing back 'out'...


The ones I had shook their heads a lot also ( but stopped doing so after a day or two)...probably like we will shake some kinds of injurys, ( a punch in the Jaw is 'classicly' a trauma one 'shakes off', unless one is knocked out of course, ) trying to sort of help things go 'back' to their pre-distorted pre-stunned configuration, by doing so...


Hunger and dehydration can mimic 'drunk-like' behaviors...and it can take a day and a half or so, before their systems are rejuvinating enough to be co-ordinated again for walking and other movements.

She might have some strained muscles in her Legs or Thighs too...

Whatever she hit, she likely did not land lightly...






Phil
l v


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That's great news, Lynn! And I'm so encouraged to hear from others who have seen pigeons recover from this type of injury. She is a lovely bird, too.

I just wanted to add that it may take some time, but she'll probably recover from the head injury, too. Last year we took in a lost racing homer who was rehabbed by a friend of mine. He had probably been hit by a car (was found in the middle of a highway) and suffered a badly broken wing plus head trauma. He was barely alive and very thin. Even our vet didn't really expect him to survive, but he did. Jennifer had to tube him for two weeks before he began to eat on his own again. It took months and he's still a little socially awkward, but he eventually regained most of his faculties. He'll never fly again but leads what appears to be a fairly happy life on the ground in our aviary. He flirts with the hens, who flirt back, and quarrels with the fantail cocks.


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

She is a lot spunkier today! She escaped her tub and I found her having a great walk-a-bout the room. Her walking is much improved and she is flexing her wings.
BTW.........the boy that found her said he saw her fall from a tree.
Altho she seems to try to feed herself I haven't noticed anything in her crop, or it is too little to feel at least. Will the beak being out of line prevent her from eating?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Widget said:


> * *She is a lot spunkier today!*
> 
> She escaped her tub and I found her having a great walk-a-bout the room. Her walking is much improved and she is flexing her wings.
> BTW.........the boy that found her said he saw her fall from a tree.
> ...


* That's great news!! 

** Although every situation is unique, providing her with a deep dish of seeds should help a great deal.

Kim (KIPPY) has two (or is it three) scissor beaked pigeons & they all do well, as long as they have a deep dish of seeds to eat from.

Jack, one of her pijjies, is *severely* scissor beaked & lost an eye due to a horrific case of canker. He's been with her since March of 2004 & is doing wonderfully.  

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Widget said:


> She is a lot spunkier today! She escaped her tub and I found her having a great walk-a-bout the room. Her walking is much improved and she is flexing her wings.
> BTW.........the boy that found her said he saw her fall from a tree.
> Altho she seems to try to feed herself I haven't noticed anything in her crop, or it is too little to feel at least. Will the beak being out of line prevent her from eating?




Hi Widget, 



If her Beak is not closing evenly, or if the beak tips are not aligned, then "yes", that could throw things off to make pecking-eating difficult.


If she has swelling and pulled muscles and highly stressed or even crackd or Broken bones where her Beak is anchored, it may take a while for things to become even again, as these injurys heal.


Is the Beak showing a mis-align so that the top is to one side of the bottom but paralell? or is it to one side at the 'tips'? Or..?


Can you post some images which would show whatever is going on with it/



Phil
v


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

The base of the beak seems to be even with the bottom beak. the beak angles to the right so that the tips are not lined up. 
I'll have Lynn post some more pics in the morning. Plus a full body pic so everyone can see how beautiful this young pigeon is.

Thanks for all the help,

Lance


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Phil and all - 

We've posted full body and close ups of Widg showing the beak. She's really amazing - still "argues" about having to be dropper fed but we do get it down her. After her morning feeding I set her back down in her tub. She immediatly hopped over to the edge, flapped up onto the rim, over into my lap, snuggled up & fell asleep. 

I was astounded.

I would guess at least part of it was that she was warm in my lap just before, having a towl around her to secure her for feeding & liked the warmth. We let her nap a bit then put her back in the tub with her hot water bottle (wrapped in a towel) and she dozed off again.

Are pigeons affectionate with humans? It made me feel pretty warm & fuzzy & just amazed the kids - one of whom was the boy who found her. ANd I know enough aboug animals to know that a smart one like her would recognize & go for favorable conditions, warm & fuzzy aside.

Can you tell the sex of a bird? Beside the obvious egg-laying?

What color is a healthy beak? Her's still looks swollen & tender on top to us. More out toward the tip it's looks dryer & harder & a darker yellowish-tan. Closer to her flesh it's puffier & cream-colored.

Well - time to go to work, Lance will check back in earlier than I this evening.

Thanks so much!

Lynn & Lance


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lynn,



They are all individuals...all have differing prior experience or acceptances...some will decide to be affectionate or to welcome cuddleing, some do not...or however in-between.




Probably a Hen...is my guess.


Hens have a larger space bewteen the Bones occuring in the region of their vent ( rear underside ) than males do, sort of like having a wider pelvis, for the Eggs to pass. But without an amenible male to compare how this area feels, it is likely hard to gauge without experience.


Looks like a young adult...or sub-adult, late adolesent.


Beaks can be Pink, or Black, or combinations of the two.


'Nares' ( the soft, flesy bumps where the Beak and Forehead meet) usually are White, but can be greyish or puddy colored if soiled or if the pigeon is ill or if they have been recently soiled or got oil on them.

Some are 'Pink' and it looks like hers are...and or they can be Pink when the Pigeon is still pretty young.


She looks very sweet indeed...


Best wishes!


Good going!



Phil
l v


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Phil - 

She flew! Twice from my lap to the window when I brought her out to feed. So beautiful to see.

I've posted pics of the 2 kids who rescued her as they're learning to feed her. They are going to care for her over the weekend while we're gone. They are so thrilled to be a part of her care. This little bird has touched all of our lives in her short stay.

I have hopes for releasing her, I haven't seen her trying to self feed, but I work long, long hours so I may have missed that.

She stayed in my lap again after feeding & fell asleep. She's a tired bird with her crop full, a good thing, I think.

Thanks for the answers to my questions.

I think we'll let her excercise tomorrow morning before we feed her, let her walk around or fly as she wants.

We're fixing up a tall top for her tub so she will be able to flap her wings better & see out more as she gets stronger.

Best to you and all ,

Lynn & Lance


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Quick update - 

I've been hand feeding her grain now, twice a day, trying to get at least a teaspoon in each time, is that enough food?

She's pooping a lot now, some light green in it, also a lot of white and by last night a lot firmer, there is actually a shape to the poops.

We're feeding wild bird mix and some sunflower seed hearts (no shells).

Phil - did you get a chance to send out pigeon mix?

I'm blown away by how affectionate she is with me, she's apparently decided I'm her human. Her favorite place after a feeding is my lap, eyes closed, snuggled up against me. She will walk across the floor to hop up into it.

Her left side is still weak, she lists to that side, however all over coordination & strength is better. Hope she gets back to completely normal functioning.

Beak still off to one side & she seems to not be able to peck accurately - I mean her aim seems off at this point, as well as the scissor thing a problem.

Her breast bone doesn't feel as sharp.

All in all we are quite happy with her progress & enjoying caring for her.

Happy flying!

Lynn


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What a wonderful update. Pijies can be so affectionate it is amazing. You have done a great job with her.

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

She sounds like such a sweetheart. Glad she's doing so much better.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lynn, 



Pigeon-Mix went out Wednesday...

Lol...
Turns out I was out of it myself on Sunday ( had to drive to petsmart to get regular Wild Bird Seed to tide things over) , Feed Store guy could not deliver any on Monday and I could not go there...Tuesday I drove there and got some, got home, was hot and ughy and tired, and forgot to package some for you...Wednesday, remembered, and got a few pounds in the Mail to you.


I included some nice Grit also, in it's own little Bag.




> Beak still off to one side & she seems to not be able to peck accurately - I mean her aim seems off at this point, as well as the scissor thing a problem.



This might be from injuring nerves in the collision event, or, might still be some swelling of tissues...and if neruological, could take a few weeks to a few months to clear up.


By 'Teaspoon' do you ean the smaller Table-use kinds everyone uses for table setings to have in them?


Anyway, she chould be able to handle between one and two Volumetric or 'Dry' Ounces of Seeds over a day. If you have a Shotg Glass, there is usually a litle 'line' indicating the Ounce Mark, and that would be close enough for establishing a dry Ounce for these purposes.

I thought she'd be pecking better by now. But, if you are having to do 'Seed Pops' ( putting a Seed into her mouth for her to swallow ) then the 'Pigeon Mix' will work good for that too, till she is pecking better.


And you can even put in a couple tiny pieces of Grit once every other day too.


Keep those poops coming...!



Phil
l v


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Phil,

Thank you so much for the pigeon feed & grit. She is liking it a lot more than the bird seed. I could tell she reconized it as something she was used to which confirms my thought that she was not a feral bird. She still doesn't seem to feed herself and that surprises me a little. She is doing so well in every other way, even walks without canting to the side now. Maybe she likes the handling so much she isn't trying very hard. She's very affectionate! She does peck at pieces of grain that I drop but she just knocks it around. She also pecks at the side of the bowl, so I assume that her beak is not very tender anymore.

Thanks again for all the help,

Lance


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lance, 



Their pecking is a combination of really fine reflexes and co-ordinations.

Injury or trauma can sometimes effect this so they lose the ability for a while, to do it effectively.


So, just keep on with getting enough Seeds into her for say 30 poops-a-day being made, and give it time.


Glad she likes the Seeds..!



Feral Pigeons who have never seen these Seeds before go at the like Old Hat, so, she is probably just recognising them as any Pigeon would, as inviting Seeds, whether she ever saw their likes before or not.


Glad she likes to be social and to have affection...no harm to do all of that you like.


If later someday she wants to be 'wild', you can decide about that then.



Good luck..!



Phil
l v


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Phil - 

Quick question - 

We have Widget in a cage in our upstairs, which functions as our bedroom, office & school room - the point being that we're all exposed to her daily & a lot.

My question is: are there any health problems with having her (and her poops) so close in our personal space?

I am careful to wash hands after handling her.

We could move her to the back porch, however it gets hot out there - like over 100 in the afternoons - although the wild pigeons seem to do fine with the heat outside..............

We can't keep her downstairs due to our pair of 4 month old kittens who are just terrors right now - they would be oh-so-delighted to have a bird to be obsessed with, especially Orbit - the little male, who is ferocious.

We could also put her outside, in the shade, under the big trees - the cage Lance built is sturdy and would withstand attack from any predator - I thought, however, she might get so traumatized if something like that happened that it could give her a heart attack and kill her. Is that likely?

What would you do? Where do you keep your bird(s)?

She's getting better at seed pops - will try to peck at the bigger seeds she can see between my fingers. No better luck with self-feeding yet tho. 

Flys well (evades us in tha air around and around the room) walks just fine, stands on one foot, grooms herself.

She makes a funny little sound in the mornings, I ca't even describe it well yet - but it doesn't sound like a bird much to me. Almost a low kind-of whirring, growling sound - throaty.

Our preferance is, of course, to return her to the wild and her flock - however, if she never can actually peck well, perhaps we can teach her to scoop out of a deep dish of seeds and let her fly free, just coming home to eat. And maybe if that won't work, well, I guess we'll have a pet pigeon for however long she's around.

How long to pigeons live, anyway?


Thanks in advance for you thoughts.

Best regards, 

Lynn & Lance


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lynn..!



Glad to see you saying 'Hello'...


Would you Post a close up showing how her Beak is doing?


"39 years, or less..." ( How long can they live )


( Which means, we ALL want to see her Pecking well, so you will not have to keep doing 'Seed Pops' till 2047 or so..)


The fast answer, about any disease concerns, with me anyway, is that the most I ever do for having been handling conspicuously 'sick' Pigeons, is wash my hands a little better than usual.


The routine I have when handling normal healthy Pigeons ( which I do all day long ) , is I do not bother washing my hands at all, unless about to have a meal, or even then I probably forget or don't bother...



Phil
l v


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Lynn,

Looks like I missed this thread earlier.

I am the PT member who posted about *Splitbeak*. You can search for posts about her using the search function. (Maybe I can later gather some of the material and e-mail it to you). 

When I had a pigeon indoors in our small apartment, we had to clean daily if not more often, since we let them fly freely around the apartment when it was possible. I would use a painter's or artist's palette knife, one with a thin, flexible blade (I used several different shapes). I would collect the stuff if a plastic peanut butter jar, and deposit the accumulated poops in a nearby flower garden. 

If the jar was open, usually the poop would dry out. 

If I put a lid on the jar and forgot about that jar for a day or so while I started on a new jar, moisture would condense out of the poop onto the plastic walls of the jar, and after a day, beautiful (from one point of view) thin white filaments of fungi would appear. Later other colors of fungi would show up. 

The spores produced by the fungi could be very dangerous if inhaled, especially in any quantity. (Breathing in too much of any powder, any chemical fumes or gases other than normal air can cause lung damage. Too much coal dust causes black lung, too much baker's yeast, too much asbestos fiber, too much paint fumes, et cetera, cause their specifically named diseases). I have a lung disease, with below normal lung function values, so I have to pay particular attention to matters of this sort. 

Glad to read your *Widget* is doing well.

I let Splitbeak fly free, since I had no way to keep her, and knew of no rehabbers at the time who would keep her. I had to make a daily trip by bus and streetcar to sneak-feed her from a jar of seed, though. Otherwise she would have suffered from malnutrition again, competing with other pigeons for food.

Victor trained his pigeon *Tooter* to come to his arm when called. You might try something like that, as a back-up measure in case Widget goes free, or escapes. I trained *Pidgiepoo* to come to my shoulder when I tapped it, and would feed him from a jar of seeds. My pigeon *Wieteke* would sometimes prefer to land on my head rather than on my shoulder, since the shoulder did not always provide a good landing spot because of his flapping wings.

Wishing you all the best.

Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 





Hmmm! I gotta try that, start my own 'Moon Garden' in-a-jar...


Sounds like fun..!



But yes, the Pigeon poops would be very good for any Vegetable Garden or Trees or Flowerbeds and so on.


I use a regular thin 'Puddy Knife', and also a six inch wide Drywall 'Mud' knife for scraping the floors..."Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzip!" and off they come, for easy slow gentle sweeping...


Anyway, I want to see 'Widget's Beak in some images to see how it is coing along...


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Widget (Jul 5, 2008)

39...........................years.........................................

Wow.

I had no idea pigeons would live that long, I thought maybe 3 - 7.

Hmm....................


Yup - self feeding would be a very good thing for all concerned.


I will get some shots of the beak & post them later this afternoon. Unfortunately, I can see no improvement in the degree of off-set of the top beak and her aim is still off. 


She loves the corn kernels & will almost always try to peck them when I show them to her between my fingers and I notice she's always 1/8 - 1/4" off. I mean where the tip of her beak hits is that far away from the seed. Darn.


I have carpeting throughout my home & have been wiping up poops she leaves when I let her roam free upstairs - they're usually firm enough that they don't smear - but not always.

I am relieved to hear the proximity thing is not a problem for my health - I am concerned about the back porch being too hot for her.



I did have the idea to train her to come to my hand or shoulder to eat so if she did get free she'd know to do that, hopefully.



She seems to be getting more and more tame - not surprising, really - she no longer moves to the other side of her cage every time someone walks by it and will sit on my lap after a feeding for a bit before she walks off & grooms herself or flys around or whatever.



I have a log & a 4x4 post layng on the bottom of her cage - she seems to like to be up on them, mostly the log.


I've seen her standing on one leg often - I didn't know pigeons did that - and she'll often just sink down & look like she's dozing, relaxed on the bottom of her cage.



Do they like water baths? She seems to deliberately tromp through her water dish, I mean she'll make a couple three trips into the coner of the cage where it is and splash through it, her tail feathers will wind up all sodden on the ends sometimes. It kind of crackes me up.



Maybe she's like a big flat dish of water to take a bath in - I could try that.



I guess I could also see if there are any re-habbers in the area that might want to raise her. Maybe the local vets would be a source of info there - although I don't hold much hope - this is a rural, conservative area & for the most part care & concern over animals, espcially wild ones isn't exactly high - it's more old school.

So it goes


Will get pics posted asap --


Great to hear from everyone - I tried to look up Splitbeak early on, so am glad to hear from you, Larry............. I'll go and read stuff you posted when I get a chance.



Take care - 

Lynn


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Pigeons are fairly long-lived if well cared for. I've heard of them living to 20 or more, although I think 12-15 is average. We have an Old Dutch Capuchine that is at least 15. We adopted him five years ago from a kind couple who had found him ten years before that. 

An easy way to clean poop off your carpet is baby wipes. Keep 'em handy when the bird is out. (They're also good for spot cleaning the carpet in general.)

Pigeons _love_ baths and it's good for their feathers. Try putting out a shallow pan of water and see if she bathes. A small, new kitty litter pan makes an excellent bathtub for a single pigeon. Put 1-2" of water in it and watch her enjoy her bath. I provide my pigeons baths once a week.


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