# So What Is The Deal Here ??



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well guys, you've been a bit too quiet here, so I'm asking you to have a look see.

I have a non-releasable pair of ferals with a lot of red/brown in them, and though they have tried for years to hatch a clutch, it didn't happen until Dec. 28. 

So, tell me some stuff here .. 

Here's the babies at 6 days of age: http://www.rims.net/2009Jan02 .. one very, very light and the other very, very dark 

Here they are at 10 days of age: http://www.rims.net/2009Jan06

And here they are today at 13 days of age .. BIG change: http://www.rims.net/2009Jan09

There are some pics of the Mom and Dad in this last link.

Terry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi TERRY, I would like to see pictures of the whole body of the parents It looks like one of the parents may be carrying Opal and maybe the other is carring Indigo. After looking over the photos you have some very nice genetics going on with these birds I feel that there may 3 things going on here OPAL,INDIGO,and RECESSIVE RED.I can't wait to see the young fully feathered out ,,GEORGE*


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

All I know is, they're still beauties!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi TERRY, Well I just keep going back to these pictures and I have to ask you where or whom did you get these birds from? After close inspection I now feel that you have a pair of birds that carry the ember gene and the red youngster will be an ember.If you ever want to get rid of these birds I would take them all 4 *GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks George & MJ! George, I don't recall where the parent birds came from aside from them being rescues. They were either found and brought to me by a member of the public or came in through animal control, my rehabber friend, or the wildlife center. They are unbanded and presumed feral. Both are somewhat disabled and are not releasable. I have had them both for quite a long time, and they have tried a number of times to hatch babies and were not successful until this time. Sounds like they hit this jackpot this time though! 

I have started paying more attention to the colors and markings of the many birds that come my way. I have another young disabled feral that has some interesting color in him and yet another very healthy and able bodied young presumed feral that is quite unusual .. very light colored. And .. almost forgot this little red baby: http://www.rims.net/2008Dec21/images/hpim5452.jpg

Anyway, the parents of these two babies are very, very wild, so it is difficult to get decent pictures, but I will try for some more "informative" pics over the weekend.

George, you know that you are welcome to just about any of the birds that come through here. I know they would have an excellent home and life with you, and if they can be of help in your breeding projects, then so much the better for you and them!

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have a couple of young ones that are nearly twins to yours.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Bill, Frank Check These Out*

* BILL ,FRANK Check out the birds that Terry has posted the sire and the dam look to me to be EMBER what do you guys think?* GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*

I have looked at them and have mixed feelings. I'm going to look them over alittle closer and see what I think, Frank will probably have a better idea.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Well, hmmmm*

Mom and dad look to both have sooty, makes the false checks in the shield. Also both have bronze of some sort. Dad could be indigo, makes the dark bronze bars, need to see tails of mom and dad. The red baby looks recessive red to me and the other maybe indigo. Ember is a weird one, I know very little about it but I think it is rare to be so red in the nest. The best way to tell them from what I've seen is during a moult when they can either change from red to blue or blue to red. It seems to be a very odd gene and I would think still a bit rare among ferals even though it came from them.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Ember is a possibility as is Ts1 (one of the modena bronze parts that Gibson talks about). They are extremely pretty birds. The dark skinned one is almost assuredly also dirty


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Charis said:


> I have a couple of young ones that are nearly twins to yours.


Do you have any photos of them, Charis? Would love to see them! Did they fool you too by turning out to be something you weren't expecting?

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Frank or anyone .. what does "dirty" mean in the context used? I know you aren't saying that the little baby needs a bath, but I don't know or recall what it means in genetic terms! 

I didn't mention it here but did in the other thread about these babies, but there is absolutely no possibility of the parentage of these two babies being anything other than the two adults I posted pictures of. These two adults have been together for a very long time and completely separate from any other birds. I've kept them separate simply because their disabilities made them vulnerable to getting beat up when in the general population. Just wanted to be sure you knew that there was no "milkman" possibility here.

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Frank or anyone .. what does "dirty" mean in the context used? I know you aren't saying that the little baby needs a bath, but I don't know or recall what it means in genetic terms!


 Dirty is a color modifier that darkens the feathers, beak, skin and feet. Especially at a young age.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/smokey.html


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Dirty is a color modifier that darkens the feathers, beak, skin and feet. Especially at a young age.
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/smokey.html


Thanks, Becky! Very interesting! I've really got to try and get my old brain in the mode of learning something new!  My mind just kind of boggles at all these gene "things" though I'd like to think I'm getting decent at recognizing pigeons that are at least a little bit special genetically. We'll see ..

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well once you see enough pictures and try to guess enough pigeons, those things eventually stick  ...Or at least the most common ones  You already know so much, I'm not sure if all this genetics stuff can fit in there too!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well once you see enough pictures and try to guess enough pigeons, those things eventually stick  ...Or at least the most common ones  You already know so much, I'm not sure if all this genetics stuff can fit in there too!


LOL! Well we'll see, Becky! You might be right .. SBS .. Stuffed Brain Syndrome here! I used to think that when trying to learn all the medications and dosages .. eventually I got all that, so maybe there is hope here for the genetics, but I wouldn't count on it! Tis easier to just come here, post some pics, and ask! 

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Terry*

If I can learn this stuff, anybody can. Frank is probably right about dirty factor. Look at the feet, if they are black, it's got dirty factor, a darkening gene. This gene is signified by "V", which stands for verdunkel, which I may have misspelled. Sounds German, must mean dirty. Not complicated at all is it?
You can study genetics for your whole life and never have it all figured out. I think that's part of why it is so interesting to me, new things are discovered all the time.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Definitely Gotta Post More Pics ..*

That little dark baby has literally changed color in just the two days since I posted the photos. I looked at the babies today and was astonished to see the dark baby now looking like a much more subtle color that is hard to describe .. kind of grayish dark brown but a very soft looking color. The little red one is still red but perhaps coming out a bit lighter than it was. I really can't believe how quickly these two babies are changing in appearance. It will be Tuesday before I can get updated pics, so who knows what they're gonna look like by then!

Incidentally, the dark baby does not have black legs and feet (at least not today ) They are also not red or pink but more flesh colored. It does appear, however, in the pics from Jan. 6 that the legs and feet were black then.

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Terry*



TAWhatley said:


> That little dark baby has literally changed color in just the two days since I posted the photos. I looked at the babies today and was astonished to see the dark baby now looking like a much more subtle color that is hard to describe .. kind of grayish dark brown but a very soft looking color. The little red one is still red but perhaps coming out a bit lighter than it was. I really can't believe how quickly these two babies are changing in appearance. It will be Tuesday before I can get updated pics, so who knows what they're gonna look like by then!
> 
> Incidentally, the dark baby does not have black legs and feet (at least not today ) They are also not red or pink but more flesh colored. It does appear, however, in the pics from Jan. 6 that the legs and feet were black then.
> 
> Terry


Yup, more pics, never ends does it? I did not see evidence of black feet in any photos. Which ones do you mean? If the bird has dirty factor, in my experience the black feet and legs have stayed until sometime around first moult. I need to pay closer attention to these details myself. Sometimes hard to take it all in and is why I take daily notes with any changes at least for nestlings. Weanlings tend to get forgotten for awhile and tend to be more casual observations, at least for me.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It's the 10 day old pics where you can see a black little foot if you look carefully: http://www.rims.net/2009Jan06/

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Good eye Terry*



TAWhatley said:


> It's the 10 day old pics where you can see a black little foot if you look carefully: http://www.rims.net/2009Jan06/
> 
> Terry


Yup, I see it in the first photo. Youv'e got yourself a dirty bird. 


Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jbangelfish said:


> Yup, I see it in the first photo. Youv'e got yourself a dirty bird.
> 
> Bill


Ummmm, but his/her legs and feet aren't black anymore .. I'm positive they were flesh colored the last time I picked that baby up and carefully looked at it. My head is swimming at how quickly that little dark baby is changing .. literally overnight. I will get new pics tomorrow of the babies and hopefully some helpful ones of the parents including the tails. Who knows what color(s) the little ones will be tomorrow! 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Pics From Today - Jan 13 2009*

Ebony, Ivory, Parents, and Little Red Peep

Terry


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Pretty! pigeons. I'd put the odds at about 90% that barred parent is an ember and that the sooty wf parent is "something". I honestly don't know about that one. I don't remember ever seeing flight ends and tail bar that looked like that. I'm sending that pic to some friends. As for the youngsters, red could be a recessive red or "cinnamon" (ember). It's also obvious the he was sick or had something wrong, maybe cold, lack of food, etc., about a week ago -- can tell from the fret mark across the tail all at the same place. I'm not sure about the nestmate, might simply be a bluebar het for ember or recessive red. I want to see these as they get older. 

Frank


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

bluecheck said:


> Pretty! pigeons. I'd put the odds at about 90% that barred parent is an ember and that the sooty wf parent is "something". I honestly don't know about that one. I don't remember ever seeing flight ends and tail bar that looked like that. I'm sending that pic to some friends. As for the youngsters, red could be a recessive red or "cinnamon" (ember). It's also obvious the he was sick or had something wrong, maybe cold, lack of food, etc., about a week ago -- can tell from the fret mark across the tail all at the same place. I'm not sure about the nestmate, might simply be a bluebar het for ember or recessive red. I want to see these as they get older.
> 
> Frank


Thanks for the info, Frank! When you refer to the barred parent, I ASSume you are talking about the cock bird and the sooty bird as the hen .. yes?

The offspring of these two adults are the dark youngster and the light youngster that is now light red. They are captioned as Ebony and Ivory.

The older red youngster (Little Red Peep) has nothing to do with the others aside from being a pretty little red bird. This older youngster fell from a nest in an aircraft hangar at Northrop and was kept for a few days to a week by the rescuer. I know for a fact that this little one was not getting enough food or appropriate food during that time. I tube fed it for a week or so and then it started self feeding like gang busters and hasn't looked back yet. That fret mark in the tail is just about where the tail ended when the little one arrived, and the tail has since grown. I've had that little one since Dec. 21, 2008. Pictures of it on arrival are here: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/found-a-baby-pigeon-32090.html

_Correcting Info Here:_ For some reason, I had it in my head that the finders had Little Red Peep for almost a week. In looking at the thread linked above, they only had it for a day. It was, however, not being fed anything good for baby pigeons and was being fed via a straw. They didn't have it long enough to do any harm, so either I caused the fret mark by diet, care, or housing or the baby was malnourished to begin with.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*20 Days Old Today ..*










Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Terry*

The red looks recessive red to me but I confess to knowing almost nothing about ember, never had any.

The blue looks to have tic eye which is associated with diry factor. What color are his feet now?

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jbangelfish said:


> The red looks recessive red to me but I confess to knowing almost nothing about ember, never had any.
> 
> The blue looks to have tic eye which is associated with diry factor. What color are his feet now?
> 
> Bill


Hi Bill,

Ebony's feet are kind of purplish to normal colored now. I tried to get some pics today but they didn't come out well. There's a couple of blurry ones at the tail end here: http://www.rims.net/2009Jan18

Ebony is now looking exactly like the Mom .. the same colors/markings but perhaps a little darker than she is.

In talking to George on the phone, it's my understanding that little Ivory (the red one) will change to blue if ember is involved. This is totally mind boggling to me, so I guess we shall see!

Terry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi TERRY and BILL, Ron Huntley has done some work with Ember and has some very good pictures of Embers young and old you will see some blue bars that carry Ember. The two parents of these two young birds have some red in their primary flight feathers, that is what will happen when the red youngster molts out if its EMBER and this is what I believe will happen. We realy have to wait for the first molt to see any changes in the red youngster.Now as to the dark youngster carring dirty it is very intresting to me that the feet have changed from black to red, the question here is if the dark youngster (ebony) is carring the ember gene is it causing the change in color of the feet or is there some other reason? This I believe can only be answered by breeding the youngster Ebony so we will not know in this case until Ebony is old enough to mate and breed. But go to the HUNTLEY site and check out the ember there.* .GEORGE http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ember.html


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

TAWhatley said:


> Ebony, Ivory, Parents, and Little Red Peep
> 
> Terry


 HI TERRY, I will be coming up this week I need to go to Jedds I would like to stop by and see these birds. What is a good day. I also think that PEEP also may be EMBER check out the tails of both the red young birds to see if they a bluish look about them. But take a look at the Huntley site on EMBER he has done alot of work with ember. Ember was first found in a feral flock and that is what we have here feral birds. ..GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*HI TERRY, While I was in the HUNTLEY site I checked out Dirty and found that the feet of dirty birds will change to red as the bird gets older.* GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the info/posts, George. I will be home Tuesday and Friday if either of those days works for you to stop by. I would love for you to see these birds and have a couple of others that I would like you to take a look at. Just let me know.

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Yup, that's what they do*



george simon said:


> *HI TERRY, While I was in the HUNTLEY site I checked out Dirty and found that the feet of dirty birds will change to red as the bird gets older.* GEORGE


Frank actually told me about that here. Can't believe that I never paid attention to some of these things before now. More time now and lots to learn. I wonder if het dirties change faster than homozygous ones? I've seen 6 month old birds still with black feet, I have some as well.

As to the ember, it is very peculiar and I've seen the pics of them starting red, turning blue and vice versa. Some guys have been experimenting with it and recessive red. I don't remember what they've come up with but I think they may have eliminated the blue phase. Don't hold me to that.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

TAWhatley said:


> Thanks for the info/posts, George. I will be home Tuesday and Friday if either of those days works for you to stop by. I would love for you to see these birds and have a couple of others that I would like you to take a look at. Just let me know.
> 
> Terry


 Hi TERRY,Lets make it Tuesday,that way we will still have Friday if some thing comes up. ..GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

george simon said:


> Hi TERRY,Lets make it Tuesday,that way we will still have Friday if some thing comes up. ..GEORGE


Sounds good! I'll look forward to seeing you tomorrow.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

George did stop by to see these birds. I'll leave it to him to tell you all the details, but it looks like Ebony and Ivory will be going to live with George in the next week or so. They aren't completely weaned yet but are close.

Terry


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> George did stop by to see these birds. I'll leave it to him to tell you all the details, but it looks like Ebony and Ivory will be going to live with George in the next week or so. They aren't completely weaned yet but are close.
> 
> Terry


I figured as much............glad they're going to a good home.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Forgot to say that George may also take Little Red Peep. I also had him take a look at a couple of other birds while he was here not with the idea of him adopting them but just to see if there was anything interesting going on genetically. One is a very light colored cock bird who is a real pistol personality wise. He and his tough guy antics kept us entertained! 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Some New Pictures From Today*

Though there are other photos in this group, you can see what Ebony and Ivory look like today at 24 days old. There are also photos of the other birds I asked George to look at.

http://www.rims.net/2009Jan20

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Terry*



TAWhatley said:


> Though there are other photos in this group, you can see what Ebony and Ivory look like today at 24 days old. There are also photos of the other birds I asked George to look at.
> 
> http://www.rims.net/2009Jan20
> 
> Terry


Stud Muffin is a pretty one. Looks to be a reduced either black or possibly andalusion. The broken wing feral has a marking that may be related to smoky. It looks to be in juvenile feather, has bronze, maybe kite bronze. Check for an albescent strip, if it shows one, is not smoky. I'd like to know if it has one or not if you can check. This shows in the outermost tail feathers as a white strip on the outside of the last two feathers. Normal birds have this as long as they are not smoky.

The dark baby still shows the dirty feet. Red one looks to have undergrizzle.
Coming along nicely.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the post, Bill! I'll check the tail on that broken wing feral. Sadly, it is very, very wild and hates being handled. Yes, Ebony and Ivory are coming along well. They are awfully sweet little ones and are now used to being handled.

Stud Muffin is a very, very handsome bird with lots of spunk and personality. I need to either find him a girl or let him find one for himself. 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Ebony and Ivory - 36 Days Old*





































Terry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi TERRY, They sure look good I will be going to Jedds this week Wed, Thur, Fri what is a good dat to stop by.* GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

george simon said:


> *Hi TERRY, They sure look good I will be going to Jedds this week Wed, Thur, Fri what is a good dat to stop by.* GEORGE


Hi George,

Unfortunately, I won't be home on any of those days. My nephew is moving a branch office from Vista to Escondido, and I will be going down there to help get all the computer systems up and running on Friday and Saturday. I'll be in his Garden Grove office on Wednesday and Thursday. You could pick them up there on your way to or from JEDDS (just off the 22 at approx Harbor and Westminster), or if you like, I can bring the babies with me on Saturday and meet up with you in Oceanside on my way to Escondido. Whatever works for you is fine. Just let me know. I will be home on Tuesday as far as I know.

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Terry*

The babies look really good, great job.

The blue looks like it has some type of bronze, like kite but it could be ember. The red looks like recessive red with undergrizzle to me.

I'm getting an ember Catalonian tumbler that I will post a couple pictures of.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jbangelfish said:


> The babies look really good, great job.
> 
> The blue looks like it has some type of bronze, like kite but it could be ember. The red looks like recessive red with undergrizzle to me.
> 
> ...


Hi Bill .. Well, George will be taking these babies and seeing what is what! I saw the photo of the bird you are getting .. INCREDIBLE!

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The parents of Ebony and Ivory are on eggs again. I'm going to let them go again and see what we get this time around. George and I have not been doing good on meeting up to get Ebony and Ivory to him, but that will happen whenever it works out. The youngsters are doing fine. Ebony looks like a complete clone of the mother to me, and obviously, Ivory doesn't look like either parent but is a lovely young bird.

Terry


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

well I think as long as they have a purpose then I see no reason not to let them breed and see what comes of it


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Gone To Live With George ..*

Little Ebony and Ivory went to live with George Simon last Tuesday. I hope he will keep us posted if anything of interest turns up with these two little ones.

Terry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Up Date On Ivory And Ebony*

*Hi TERRY, Ebony and Ivory are doing fine they have been here about 9 days, still in quarantine. I do this with all birds that I bring into my loft 2 to 4 weeks. Just want to tell everyone that I am sure that Ivory is a Recessive Red and has some small white feathers in the wing.I also feel that as Bill said in an eariler post that EBONY may be an KITE so I may not have embor at all but give it time.*GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hey George*



george simon said:


> *Hi TERRY, Ebony and Ivory are doing fine they have been here about 9 days, still in quarantine. I do this with all birds that I bring into my loft 2 to 4 weeks. Just want to tell everyone that I am sure that Ivory is a Recessive Red and has some small white feathers in the wing.I also feel that as Bill said in an eariler post that EBONY may be an KITE so I may not have embor at all but give it time.*GEORGE


Have just been involved in a big discussion about ember and have learned a great deal, still more to go though for me.

Ember and recessive red are thought to be alleles and this may very well be true. My bird looks like a homozygous ember but is only het ember, het recessive red, as near as we can tell. I'm going to test him a few ways to try and sort it all out. The confusion begins with recessive red being involved with the ember gene. Het embers don't normally show anything remarkable, like most het recessives, it is hidden. Add recessive red and now het embers look like homozygous embers. I don't think anything is for certain with them yet but all indications do point toward the allele theory.

From what I've read, ember birds will go through a much greater change from baby feather to adult feather than reds do. This is the way the guys are sorting them out. If the bird looks red in the nest and moults most of the red away, it will be ember. If it goes through very little change and remains red, it will be recessive red. There is more to it than this but this is the reader's digest version and all I have room for in my little brain for the moment.

There is still a great deal of study going on with ember and it's properties and reactions to other modifiers. I am fortunate enough to be playing with this myself.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*HI BILL, I have been to the genetic site and did read the posts but I had one big problem I could not bring up any of the pictures,and one realy needs to see the photos. They say to go to the side bar on the left and click attachments I find no word attachments i spent over an hour last night trying to see those photos.I just don't understand not posting the photo with the post. *GEORGE


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Wow i'm just an old homer guy, all i see is a reccive red and a blue bar. : )


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

recessive red, wish i could spell


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

George:

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ember.html

There are some great ember shots here at Ron Huntley's site.

Frank


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

bluecheck said:


> George:
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ember.html
> 
> ...


 Hi FRANK, Yes i have seen those but I enjoy going back to take every so often . .........GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Crazy Pete said:


> Wow i'm just an old homer guy, all i see is a reccive red and a blue bar. : )


Hi Pete! Yes, George has determined that Ivory is a recessive red, but Ebony is NOT a blue bar. Check out the pics of the parents .. Ebony looks like a clone of the Mom.

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hey George*



george simon said:


> *HI BILL, I have been to the genetic site and did read the posts but I had one big problem I could not bring up any of the pictures,and one realy needs to see the photos. They say to go to the side bar on the left and click attachments I find no word attachments i spent over an hour last night trying to see those photos.I just don't understand not posting the photo with the post. *GEORGE


The photos are only there when you change your preferences so that the mail goes to your own mail system. It is a yahoo mail site and unless you use yahoo as your mail system, you will not see them. Changing this so that all the discussions come to your mail does flood your inbox but it is the only way that I know to see the photos.

This can be a pain in the rear. If you want, I can send you all the pictures from the discussion as I have them stored in my mail. send me an email at [email protected] if you want the pics.

I just picked up another ember bird over the weekend. Milky ember Arabian Trumpeter with Thai Laugher blood. Neat bird.

Bill


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