# Can I leave brother and sister to continue mating?



## BHenderson

I understand enough about genetics to know that brother and sister should not be mating. Whiskey and Soda, the brother and sister that were born in the same batch, and have remained close. It looks like the white soda is the male, and they have started to show signs of mating behavior.
I also know that the female chooses, as far as I know, when she wants to lay an egg. I think this because a couple can spend a long time finding a nesting space, and she can even mate with other males while this is going on, but one the nest is made she instigates the egg laying process, presumably using the sperm from the latest mating.
So, I am wondering if the brother and sister mating is just part of growing up and they will go and seek proper partners later, or should I discourage this behavior? If I can?
Soda also has shown interest in his mother, but she has a brood at the moment. They kept them hidden from me under a table and I did not check, I think they realised I was replacing their eggs with false ones lol.

Brian.


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## NZ Pigeon

Bro to sis mating should be fine aslong as they are not from inbred lines. Pigeons are genetically diverse so some inbreeding can be performed without seeing major issues until you get way down the line without an outcross. All the fancy breeds we see today were created through inbreeding so its clear from that alone that we can afford to inbreed aslong as careful selection takes place.


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## BHenderson

That's good to know, I forgot about all the fancy breeds and all the inbreeding that must be involved. As I mention, one of them is and off white colour and that is because the parents were white and feral. When I look closely at mother I do not even think she is a pure white breed, so there should be plenty of variation in that mix.

At a later date, if I continue to see too much inbreeding, I will look to swap with another pigeon pet keeper to keep the variation, but I doubt it will ever come to that, I am always taking in newly injured birds so there should be no problem.

Thanks for putting my mind at rest,
Brian.


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## conditionfreak

IMO, you should NOT breed brother and sister. Unless you have a specific reason for it. Such as trying to create a new fancy breed. But 99.999% of the time, it is a bad thing.

Nor should you breed a son and mother. Although that is a lot better than a brother and sister.

I see no mention or plan for "careful selection" as another mentioned. Oh, the offspring will appear okay. They will fly, coo, eat and poop. But they will be genetically messed up. Good traits will be strengthened, but so will bad traits. I don't see a plan, goal or reason for such an adventure. It appears that it is just convenient or "cute".

It seems to me that you think the brother and sister "know" each other as a sibling. They do not. When they get mature, they just see another pigeon of the opposite sex, and they act accordingly.

Think of them as humans. Do you think that a human brother and sister "mating" would be a good thing, if the law allowed it? Or a mother and son?

There are indeed legimitate reasons for inbreeding. But those reasons include understanding what you are after. What could result, and what you would do about the result. Having a goal, and having pigeons that have specific traits you are trying to strengthen.

Not just to have some babies.

What happens if you mate the borther and sister, and then their offspring also want to mate with each other? Disaster.

The main questions are. Why would you let a brother and sister mate together and raise babies? Is there a lack of pigeons in your loft/s? Surely you can find another pigeon or two.


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## Charis

Brian...it's fine to let them mate up and not unusual at all for nest mates to do just that.
I'm glad you replace the eggs with pretend ones.


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## likebirds

I had a brother and sister pair up and laid eggs which I replaced. But after they reached about 7 months the hen selected a new male for her mate and then her brother found a new hen.


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## BHenderson

This is what I am hoping will happen, that it is just a stage they are going through and they will go on to pick proper mates later. As many of you know I have a sort of hospital setup here and it is difficult to separate birds if they want to be together, which is why I asked if it mattered.
I think they will grow out of it with time, the fact he is also chasing his mother makes me think it is just early experimentation. There are other young females here that I think he will pick later on.

Thank you all for the advice,
Brian.


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## minimonkey

My brother and sister mated pair also separated when other mates were available -- I think they often do. I have a father/daughter that are mated and inseparable though ... 

I swap out eggs, so there's no breeding issue to worry about.


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## Jay3

I have a sibling pair that chose each other as mates, and they have stayed together. I usually switch out the eggs for fake, but missed one, and so this sibling pair hatched a baby. She looks very much like her granddad, even down to the feathers on her feet. She is grown now and very normal in every way. She recently mated up with a little rescue male. So as long as any babies they have eventually find unrelated mates, they'll be fine.


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## nancybird

I think Jay3 has a good point.


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## Callum Young

I agree he has got a point


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## BHenderson

I do not think it is serious, the male is always trying it on with other females, and it is just occasionally that they get together at night and mate. Its like a sort of comfort thing, but they are not really showing enough interest in each other to call them a pair, and I think as they get older they will pick other mates.


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## anhmytran

*inbreed is absolutely bad*

Intended inbreed is for reinforce mutation. For example, inbreed white horses, albino snakes tend to produce white horses, and albino snakes rather than colored ones. However, that causes high Lethal White Syndrome rate among younglings that kills animal shortly after birth. Besides, white animals with mutations often have bad eye sights, and weak immune system. Therefore, without a purpose to get mutations, you'd better not to inbreed pigeons.


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## spirit wings

I have yet to see a product of my sibling pair, both silsian swallowxjacobin. funny thing is one was hand raised and the other raised by fosters in the loft.. when the hand raised one was old enough to go out he did well. then both matured in the loft and had allot of mates to choose from..they picked each other..lol...they are in a loft with all white homers. I don't plan to let them hatch their eggs though... I said plan...lol.. we know what oops babies are.


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## Jay3

Some times siblings do mate up. I have had that happen. I normally change the eggs out anyway as I don't want my birds breeding, but on occasion they do get by me, and haven't had anything bad happen in these pairings.Had a sibling pair have a baby who turned out perfect and adorable. Even has the little feathery feet that her grand dad has, which skipped a generation.


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## Quazar

anhmytran said:


> Intended inbreed is for reinforce mutation. For example, inbreed white horses, albino snakes tend to produce white horses, and albino snakes rather than colored ones. However, that causes high Lethal White Syndrome rate among younglings that kills animal shortly after birth. Besides, white animals with mutations often have bad eye sights, and weak immune system. Therefore, without a purpose to get mutations, you'd better not to inbreed pigeons.


Were talking about feral rescue pigeons here, so I really dont see what difference it makes. If they were flying free they choose their own mates anyway, whether siblings or otherwise.


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## conditionfreak

Yea, no problem. Go ahead and mate a brother and sister German Shepherd from the same litter. Then advertise them "for sale" as such.

See how quickly they sell.

Then go ahead and mate two Siamese cats from the same litter. See how they turn out.

Pigeons are low on the food chain. They can seem normal in almost every way, because they really do not do much except fly, eat, krap and breed. But they "ain't" normal. That is what nature takes care of with predators. The weak get eaten more often, and the stronger survive more often.

But, go ahead. I am sure none of y'all would laugh at a joke of a red neck hillbilly marrying his sister. No way, no how, you would laugh at that. Right?


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## NZ Pigeon

Walt - How do you think the race birds you use for racing were originally created? How'd they turn out?


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## BHenderson

I have noticed that the females can choose when to lay eggs, and the brother/sister pair never produced eggs. They never formed a proper relationship either and eventually they both joined the local outside flock that I allow in once a day to feed. I have begun to realise that most pigeons do not want to stay inside unless they have permanent problems like Gaysers PMV problems. They all seem to want to leave after a time and I am back down to 5 pigeons. I try to keep track of the pigeons that leave and many of them join the the local flock and I am able to feed them. Others I go and look for every once in a while to make sure they are doing ok. One of the birds I had that had bad feet would not stay and every time the door was opened she flew away. I do not like to make them prisoners if they really want to go, so I go and feed her where I know she hangs out. I am pretty sure the mild weather we have had recently is going to end soon and when it turn very cold I will go and find Hobo again and see if she is more amenable to staying, otherwise I will continue to feed her when I can find her.
As I said, the weather is yet to turn proper cold, and I am sure I will have more weak pigeons in when this happens, but for now I am down to 5. We have had no PMV yet this year, and this is usually when my room fills up.
I am glad the male of the brother and sister chose to leave, he was driven I think by his urge to find a mate. He was driving the females inside mad, every time they got off the eggs for a break he would chase them around until they were forced back on the nest. I believe this is why the sister left first, because she got fed up with his chasing. Unpaired males are a constant problem in a small space like mine.


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## Jay3

conditionfreak said:


> Yea, no problem. Go ahead and mate a brother and sister German Shepherd from the same litter. Then advertise them "for sale" as such.
> 
> See how quickly they sell.
> 
> Then go ahead and mate two Siamese cats from the same litter. See how they turn out.
> 
> Pigeons are low on the food chain. They can seem normal in almost every way, because they really do not do much except fly, eat, krap and breed. But they "ain't" normal. That is what nature takes care of with predators. The weak get eaten more often, and the stronger survive more often.
> 
> But, go ahead. I am sure none of y'all would laugh at a joke of a red neck hillbilly marrying his sister. No way, no how, you would laugh at that. Right?



As was already mentioned, these are rescues. When they are well again and can be released, they are free to go. Their offspring, if there are any will mate with others. Who they decide to mate with really isn't that big of a deal.


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## BHenderson

I didn't realise this argument about inbreeding was still going on. After the advice I got here I looked into the matter, and apparently the advice I was given was correct. Inbreeding is only a problem when the numbers of the species are limited. As there are many pigeons continually interbreeding between flocks, there is a lot of genetic diversity in pigeons, so the percentage of inbreeding causing genetic weakness is very low. With other species like snakes where the numbers are very low, there is a much greater chance of genetic problems.
Feral pigeons have a very big breeding pool, Specially bred pigeons kept in a loft if interbred are likely to produce genetic problems very quickly. You would have to have several generations of inbreeding amongst feral pigeons before the percentage of genetic deformity became large enough to be a problem. Hope this puts you mind at rest.


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## anhmytran

*The issue is still going on for ever*

Yes. You are right that inbreed is an issue that never ends.
In HighSchool, kids are taught about DNA, genes, and mutations. They also learn stories about that, such as white couple giving birth to a black kid, such as a desease that prevents blood clot running generations in loyal family, etc. However, people love to believe otherwise. Bless our school children who believe without seeing evidence.


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## NZ Pigeon

Anyone who keeps a fancy breed or a racing breed and is against inbreeding is hypocritical IMO. Its like saying I hate animals being slaughtered for food and then eating the meat.


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## BHenderson

I have just told you the information you need in my previous post, if you are not going to bother to read other peoples posts then there is no point in arguing with you. The people starting the argument about inbreeding have 1 or 2 posts and I suspect they are trolls, I am not going to respond further.


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## anhmytran

People have different beliefs and ideas.
Freely expressing what is in mind is not hypocritical.
I know that racing pigeons are mostly from inbreeding, as well as Show dogs, show horses, etc.
People doing that for their own benefit, no matter what happens to their pet.
Money is a great force of motivation. Generic studies have no force at all.
When I have my animals, there will be no way of inbreeding.
I am not a person who is trying to fool himself (hypocrite).
I am a person who believes in Generic studies.
I am looking for a better method of breeding than inbreeding.
*


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## BHenderson

My original problem was that a newly hatched male/female pair started mating as they grew up, but as it happens they grew out of it quite quickly and picked different partners. I think it was just a stage they were going through, but at the time I was not sure if they would pair up and I did not know if this was ok.
If you look at the information on the left hand side of the people who were being argumentative, you will see that they had one post each. They came here just to start arguments between people so I stopped responding to this thread. These argumentative types of people are known as trolls on the internet. Unfortunately it is a common thing to happen.


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## NZ Pigeon

anhmytran said:


> People have different beliefs and ideas.
> Freely expressing what is in mind is not hypocritical.
> I know that racing pigeons are mostly from inbreeding, as well as Show dogs, show horses, etc.
> People doing that for their own benefit, no matter what happens to their pet.
> Money is a great force of motivation. Generic studies have no force at all.
> When I have my animals, there will be no way of inbreeding.
> I am not a person who is trying to fool himself (hypocrite).
> I am a person who believes in Generic studies.
> I am looking for a better method of breeding than inbreeding.
> *


You are right, Freely expressing opinions is not hypocritical however, Keeping something that is the product of inbreeding is hypocritical if you are against the proccess used to create them, You are sustaining and industry you claim to be against.


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## anhmytran

Thanks a lot for the definition of "trolls."
*
After a good search on inbreeding, I see that experts do inbreed, but only with very expensive breeders. Experts do not abuse that method to common pigeons. They also said that in the process of inbreeding, there are more young pigeons are slaughter than other methods of breeding. I think that it makes a lot of sense.
*
I do not believe that the sport of racing pigeons is some kind of humanity, either.
Breeding thousands for kill in order to get one champion!
We'd better with farming utility pigeons instead.
*


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## rasheed.rubeena

In nature (wild pigeons) from the two eggs one male and a female hatch (mostly) these two are meant for each other and when they grow into adults they mate with each other.
-Rubeena


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## NZ Pigeon

rasheed.rubeena said:


> In nature (wild pigeons) from the two eggs one male and a female hatch (mostly) these two are meant for each other and when they grow into adults they mate with each other.
> -Rubeena


In 50% of clutches you will get one of each sex.


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## anhmytran

rasheed.rubeena said:


> In nature (wild pigeons) from the two eggs one male and a female hatch (mostly) these two are meant for each other and when they grow into adults they mate with each other.
> -Rubeena


In human, the number of baby boys are about the same as the baby girls.
So, in pigeon, the ratio is also reasonable.
It does not mean the brother and the sister means for each other.
*
In human, boys and girls growing up together tend not to fall in love to each other.
It is the same with other animals. If you do not confined them in a closed environment, it unlikely they will mate.
In nature, pigeons are roaming freely nature-wide rather than in your loft.


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## conditionfreak

BHenderson said:


> My original problem was that a newly hatched male/female pair started mating as they grew up, but as it happens they grew out of it quite quickly and picked different partners. I think it was just a stage they were going through, but at the time I was not sure if they would pair up and I did not know if this was ok.
> If you look at the information on the left hand side of the people who were being argumentative, you will see that they had one post each. They came here just to start arguments between people so I stopped responding to this thread. These argumentative types of people are known as trolls on the internet. Unfortunately it is a common thing to happen.


The answer to your original question, is that "yes", you should discourage a brother and sister mating.

I joined this site in Jan. 2008. I have about 2400 posts. You joined in Jan. 2011 and have about 600 posts.

Now exactly a troll.

I have an opinion, and this thread was started asking for opinions.

So what is the problem?

On another commentors post. Nest mates being "made for each other", goes against everything genetics is about. Are you saying that my son and daughter were "made for each other", as mates? C'mon.

I have already addressed the many feral pigeons that inbreed. They are the food taken by the predators more often. Because they are weaker. Less capable and less healthy. Hence why humans are not ALLOWED to inbreed, brother and sister, or father and daughter, etc.

No, there is no great harm if feral related pigeons inbreed. There is no harm if expensive related racing pigeons inbreed. They are just pigeons. It is just laziness for the most part though. Although a case could be made for someone intentionally doing it with a really good plan, to produce exceptional pigeons. Hopefully they have a lot of experience and a good plan. Not just because they don't want to take the time and trouble to prevent it.

Yes, fancy pigeons did come from inbreeding. Racing pigeons for the most part, did not. That is why racing pigeons are the top of the pigeon world, whereas fancy pigeons are contorted and useless, except for appearance.

A racing pigeon can easily survive in the wild, if that happens. A fancy pigeon will not last a week. If that.

There is a reason.

I do not know why anyone even debates this subject.

Inbreeding: for the most part, BAD.

Line breeding: for the most part, OKAY, and can be very good.

Out breeding: for the most part, PREFERRED. Genetic diversity is the key for any species to survive successfully. We all learned that in the 2nd grade.

There are about 6 billion humans on the planet. That is a lot of diversity. Yet, humans are warned and often forbidden, to inbreed. There is a reason, even though there is nothing as sophisticated genetically as a human. We are the most complex and most genetic diversified species on the planet, yet we are warned against inbreeding ourselves. Imagine a much simpler species, and the consequences of inbreeding for them.

Tell your parents you are thinking about marrying your first cousin, and see their reaction. Everyone knows it is a bad idea.

I take that back. Apparently not eveyone.

They are just pigeons. They will not, (and can not), complain. You won't even notice their genetic faults for the most part. Now and then you will, but mostly not. Inbred pigeons usually are smaller, more delicate, and less adept at what they do. Racing, tumbling, or whatever. I have a couple of inbred racing pigeons right now. From a brother and sister mating. Obtained from a friend that was going to put them down, because they were accidents. I didn't want them "put down", so I took them. They will not be used for breeding nor for racing. I am positive that they would fail at both endeavors, although admittedly I do not know that from experience. They are just wards of mine, that appear to be "just pigeons". Except for their small size and frail, fragile appearance. When compared to my other racing pigeons.

I am not wanting to engage in an argument. But I do not feel that asking for opinions, and when the opinions are not to your liking, calling out people as "trolls", is appropriate.

If you don't want opinions, don't ask for them.

I have little scientific basis for this, but it has been my experience that often, species will not mate with each other if they are closely related. It is as if they "know" it is not good for thier potential offspring. I base this on how certain species of canines, trapped on an island, can maintain their genetic diversity fairly well. Research "seems" to indicate that they will seek mates that are not closely related, even though they are a fairly small group trapped on an island. I also base this on my own German Shepherds. I have a two year old male and when his mother goes into heat, she will not let him mate with her. But will let my 7 year old male mate with her. She just refuses her son. Which is astounding really. Dogs in heat usually will accept any male dog. I suspect this kind of thing happens often, in feral pigeon flocks also. But, just like homing ability. I can not prove it.

P.S. I do not eat meat. For whatever that is worth.


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## anhmytran

conditionfreak said:


> I do not know why anyone even debates this subject.
> 
> Inbreeding: for the most part, BAD.
> 
> Line breeding: for the most part, OKAY, and can be very good.
> 
> Out breeding: for the most part, PREFERRED. Genetic diversity is the key for any species to survive successfully. We all learned that in the 2nd grade.
> *
> I am not wanting to engage in an argument. But I do not feel that asking for opinions, and when the opinions are not to your liking, calling out people as "trolls", is appropriate.
> 
> If you don't want opinions, don't ask for them.
> *
> I have little scientific basis for this, but it has been my experience that often, species will not mate with each other if they are closely related. It is as if they "know" it is not good for thier potential offspring. I base this on how certain species of canines, trapped on an island, can maintain their genetic diversity fairly well. Research "seems" to indicate that they will seek mates that are not closely related, even though they are a fairly small group trapped on an island. I also base this on my own German Shepherds. I have a two year old male and when his mother goes into heat, she will not let him mate with her. But will let my 7 year old male mate with her. She just refuses her son. Which is astounding really. Dogs in heat usually will accept any male dog. I suspect this kind of thing happens often, in feral pigeon flocks also. But, just like homing ability. I can not prove it.
> 
> P.S. I do not eat meat. For whatever that is worth.


1- Please, do not add more your idea by editing your old post.
Just simply write a new post at the end of the conversation as a latest one.
*
2- I am searching on "racing homer breeding" and find that:
Only top birds can be used in "in-breeding" for they are too expensive.
Line breeding is in fact in breeding for generations, mainly Grand Pa or
Grand Ma with their niece or nephew.
Either inbreed or line breed, the off springs that are useful is less than 1%
of all off springs. That means we have to cull more than 99 birds to keep 1.
Famous breeding people, such as Jaunssen brothers have 30 pairs of breeders
rather than one pair made up from sister and brother.
*
3- I agree that a person may speak once, and then he lost his appetite to
speak the second time. In this way, he is still a nice gentlement.
*
4- There are proven evidences in nature that wild animals avoid inbreed.
Male horse will not mate his mother. Animals that live in herds such as Lions,
wild hogs, when they are young, they may try to mate brother and sister,
but without really do it. When they grow up, they mate with others that are
not their brother and sister. Female dogs in heat prefer male dogs that are
strange to them rather male dogs in the same house.
*
5- However, incest tends to occur in human in a close environment as in the
Bible, and novel by Edgar Allan Poe. He married his 13-year old cousin, and
she died young. Incest occurs in Christian preachers, too (I do not know why).
*
6- When I was young, I lived in other country, and the country was at war.
I do not have meat to eat. Now I live in the US, and I have much more meat
than I can eat. I believe eating a little meat will help, but not American level.
*


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## BHenderson

A bit of Indian mysticism maybe coming out of Rasheed there?


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## conditionfreak

I am having a hard time understanding these two together:

"1- Please, do not add more your idea by editing your old post.
Just simply write a new post at the end of the conversation as a latest one."

and, 

"Last edited by anhmytran; Today at 10:37 AM."


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## conditionfreak

This is totally wrong.

"2- I am searching on "racing homer breeding" and find that:
Only top birds can be used in "in-breeding" for they are too expensive.
Line breeding is in fact in breeding for generations, mainly Grand Pa or
Grand Ma with their niece or nephew.
Either inbreed or line breed, the off springs that are useful is less than 1%
of all off springs. That means we have to cull more than 99 birds to keep 1."

Most, if not all, great racing pigeons, are from line breeding. It is the same with dogs or horses. That is why there are birds called Janssens, Jan Ardyns, Fabrys, etc. For sure, you do not have to throw away 99 out of 100 Sions, or any other famous line. After all, they are called a "line" for a reason.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post because you are not as familiar with the use of the english language. But what in the heck does Christian preachers engaging in incest, have to do with pigeons or genetics? Might as well talk about priests and homosexual abuse. They both have nothing to do with this subject. Why did you pick Chirstians as an example?

You lost me.


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## anhmytran

Show dogs and show horses are sure from in breeding.
However, racing dogs and racing horses are not.
The difference is: show animals should meet requirements on sizes, shapes, colors, etc
but racing dogs and racing horse criteria is powerful, which means health.
*
I believe that in breeding any animals, we have to throw away more than 99 to find 1.
It is not easy to breed 99 horses to get a racing horse, but it is possible to pigeons.
That is the reason in horse race, there are 10 horses, and in pigeon race, there are
hundreds of pigeons. Breeding is too easy, but the success ratio is very slim.
*
I am Christian, then I do not pick Christian preachers by any purpose.
I think reporters pick them to have something to talk on newspapers.
That is reason I pick the related topic as incest rather than unrelated topic as
homosexual. Incest means in breed, that is related to the topic.
*


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## anhmytran

conditionfreak said:


> I am having a hard time understanding these two together:
> 
> "1- Please, do not add more your idea by editing your old post.
> Just simply write a new post at the end of the conversation as a latest one."
> 
> and,
> 
> "Last edited by anhmytran; Today at 10:37 AM."


1- I misunderstood that you just edit your old post rather than composing a new one.
*
2- I edited my new post, right the moment I wrote it. Then, the time of editing
is almost the same as the time I first composing it. That means the edited version
is the newly posted one.
*
3- The order of posts presented in this forum is confusing. I have hard time
to work with it. I prefer the sort order by chronicle order. With that, I can
easily find the latest post in conversation.
*


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## NZ Pigeon

Walt - line breeding is a form of inbreeding, just a slightly more specialised one that has been given a fancy name. Its a controlled method of mating related birds to lock in the good genes, If dont incorrectly it will also lock in bad genes so extensive selection is required to select what you desire.


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## NZ Pigeon

anhmytran said:


> Show dogs and show horses are sure from in breeding.
> However, racing dogs and racing horses are not.
> The difference is: show animals should meet requirements on sizes, shapes, colors, etc
> but racing dogs and racing horse criteria is powerful, which means health.
> *
> I believe that in breeding any animals, we have to throw away more than 99 to find 1.
> It is not easy to breed 99 horses to get a racing horse, but it is possible to pigeons.
> That is the reason in horse race, there are 10 horses, and in pigeon race, there are
> hundreds of pigeons. Breeding is too easy, but the success ratio is very slim.
> *
> I am Christian, then I do not pick Christian preachers by any purpose.
> I think reporters pick them to have something to talk on newspapers.
> That is reason I pick the related topic as incest rather than unrelated topic as
> homosexual. Incest means in breed, that is related to the topic.
> *


Race horses and show horses are bred with exactly the same methods and intentions, The difference is show breeds can be selected visually whereas race horses need to be raced before their ability is found out, They still use the same methods of breeding as show horses, I used to work at the race track and I was a rider of show ponies all my childhood so I know a little about both and I assure you, Some race horse owners do put distantly related mares back to their say great great grandfather.


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## NZ Pigeon

conditionfreak said:


> This is totally wrong.
> 
> "2- I am searching on "racing homer breeding" and find that:
> Only top birds can be used in "in-breeding" for they are too expensive.
> Line breeding is in fact in breeding for generations, mainly Grand Pa or
> Grand Ma with their niece or nephew.
> Either inbreed or line breed, the off springs that are useful is less than 1%
> of all off springs. That means we have to cull more than 99 birds to keep 1."
> 
> Most, if not all, great racing pigeons, are from line breeding. It is the same with dogs or horses. That is why there are birds called Janssens, Jan Ardyns, Fabrys, etc. For sure, you do not have to throw away 99 out of 100 Sions, or any other famous line. After all, they are called a "line" for a reason.
> 
> Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post because you are not as familiar with the use of the english language. But what in the heck does Christian preachers engaging in incest, have to do with pigeons or genetics? Might as well talk about priests and homosexual abuse. They both have nothing to do with this subject. Why did you pick Chirstians as an example?
> 
> You lost me.


I have to agree - what a CRAZY analogy, And besides, I don't want to hear your christian babble on a pigeon site, This is not a religion forum so please keep your analagys a little more appropriate. Christianity and Incest are not really PC subjects to be talking about on here and open up all kinds of discussions that would just cause arguements and trouble


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## rasheed.rubeena

anhmytran said:


> In human, the number of baby boys are about the same as the baby girls.
> So, in pigeon, the ratio is also reasonable.
> It does not mean the brother and the sister means for each other.
> *
> In human, boys and girls growing up together tend not to fall in love to each other.
> It is the same with other animals. If you do not confined them in a closed environment, it unlikely they will mate.
> In nature, pigeons are roaming freely nature-wide rather than in your loft.


well according to my observations i have noticed both the babies stay together from childhood.In my pigeons i have seen when they are of opposite sexes they tend to stay together even if another pigeon is introduced to them in their cage.When they are like 2 months old they do that beak to beak thing sometimes and it grows with time.When they become an adult they mate and lay eggs  .
-Rubeena


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## rasheed.rubeena

BHenderson said:


> A bit of Indian mysticism maybe coming out of Rasheed there?


Like I mentioned in my earlier post I was just saying according to my observations and my knowledge.My name is RUBEENA.
-Rubeena


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## anhmytran

All of us are talking about theory of inbreeding.
*
How about the experience?
We all agree that most of good pigeons are result of inbreeding.
How many per cent of inbreeding pigeons are good pigeons?
How many per cent of cross breeding pigeons are good pigeons?
*
To my reasoning:
two champion pigeons have better chance to have good young glings
than one champion pigeon mating to non-champion bird, and then
continues on to mate with his or her own children and then grand children.
*


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## conditionfreak

Boy. When you sink your teeth into a bone, you don't let go so easily.

I just wan't to say that we all do* not *agree that most good pigeons are the result of inbreeding.

There is a difference between line breeding and inbreeding. It is a matter of degrees for sure. But it is different.

Many people believe that out crossing certain strains of pigeons, produces better pigeons. I believe, apparently differently than most here, that breeding a brother to a sister is folly. It is best left to genuine genetic experts, and not backyard breeders. Because it will result in exactly what you said it would result in. A whole lot of inferior birds, that would probably result in culling and unproductive use of space, feed, and time.

I am against anything that results in more culling. No matter how one culls. I would rather never win a race.

A champion brother bred to a champion sister, would also be folly. That seems like an easy way to get champion blood, but in reality it does not work. It is avoiding the time and work necessary to make better pigeons. It is haste and laziness. I challenge anyone to show me a champion racing pigeon whose parents were nest mates.

If you prove that to me conclusively, then I will retract my stance and apologize to all for my mistaken beliefs and comments. But I do not want to hear about your friend, heard of a guy, who....

Show me the pedigree.

As a matter of fact. Show me the pedigree of any bird bred by a famous and successful flyer, that bred nest mates to each other. I would like to see that pedigree and see how it worked out on a result sheet.


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## anhmytran

conditionfreak said:


> Boy. When you sink your teeth into a bone, you don't let go so easily.
> 
> I just wan't to say that we all do* not *agree that most good pigeons are the result of inbreeding.


I do not agree, either.
I just repeat what the majority said.
No matter what they say, I am looking the other way to breed my birds.
I believe the theory of gene, DNA, and the creations of sperms and eggs.
*
Different from you, when I am searching for information of good birds,
most of the time I read "inbreed." Also different from you, people and I
do not define only sister-brother, mother-son, grandpa-daughter, inbreed.
To my view point, line-breed is some kind of inbreed, for it applies grandmom
and grandson and grandpa and grand daughter exclusively for generations.
If you do not call line-breed in-breed, it is fine to me.
I can follow you and said: many goods birds are resulted from line-breed.
*
I will not apply line-breed in any kind of breeding to any animals I raise.
even when my animals are not good enough to the standard.
*


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## anhmytran

Here is an example of pigeon from inbred:
*








*
The Dam 1768027 has son 9265 and daughter 616.
Even they are from different fathers, they are still brother and sister.
*
Here is the webpage that sells the pigeon (at $175):
http://www.pigeonusa.com/html/sbrow3c.html
*
Another pigeon selling for $225 dollars
http://www.pigeonusa.com/html/sbrow3d.html
*








*
Again, we see brother and sister here, mother is in Brown Shade.
*
This hen is sold for $150 dollars:
*








*
Another at $225 dollars:
*








*
Wherever I click, I see "inbred" and such kind of pedigree.
*
Although I do not like in breeding, this website is promoting in breeding.
It also proves that I do not do that, but people keep inbreeding.
*
This PDF document shows the idea of Line-breeding:
Mating all children and grand children from the same parents.
http://www.sahpa.asn.au/feedbreed/linebreed.pdf
*


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## NZ Pigeon

conditionfreak said:


> Boy. When you sink your teeth into a bone, you don't let go so easily.
> 
> I just wan't to say that we all do* not *agree that most good pigeons are the result of inbreeding.
> 
> There is a difference between line breeding and inbreeding. It is a matter of degrees for sure. But it is different.
> 
> Many people believe that out crossing certain strains of pigeons, produces better pigeons. I believe, apparently differently than most here, that breeding a brother to a sister is folly. It is best left to genuine genetic experts, and not backyard breeders. Because it will result in exactly what you said it would result in. A whole lot of inferior birds, that would probably result in culling and unproductive use of space, feed, and time.
> 
> I am against anything that results in more culling. No matter how one culls. I would rather never win a race.
> 
> A champion brother bred to a champion sister, would also be folly. That seems like an easy way to get champion blood, but in reality it does not work. It is avoiding the time and work necessary to make better pigeons. It is haste and laziness. I challenge anyone to show me a champion racing pigeon whose parents were nest mates.
> 
> If you prove that to me conclusively, then I will retract my stance and apologize to all for my mistaken beliefs and comments. But I do not want to hear about your friend, heard of a guy, who....
> 
> Show me the pedigree.
> 
> As a matter of fact. Show me the pedigree of any bird bred by a famous and successful flyer, that bred nest mates to each other. I would like to see that pedigree and see how it worked out on a result sheet.


Is the first comment referring to me? It seems you cannot let go of this one, I am over it, But one thing I stand by and will not change my opinion on is the fact Line breeding is a special name made up for controlled inbreeding to make it sound better than it is, Who can dispute that, Line breeding involves putting family members to family members, Thats inbreeding period. Just because the inbreeding continues for generation and generation along a "line" does not make it better, infact if anything it makes it worse but I do not agree with it as I know its what bought us ALL the fancy pigeon breeds we have today.

As for your wanting of a pedigree? I don't care about this subject enough to go to the effort required to find one but I am sure there is one somewhere, Can you proove there is not? Probably not as I imagine you too have better things to do with your time than hunt down birds to try make someone change their opinion. Your entitled to it, I disagree with it but thats fine, Thats the world we live in.


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## NZ Pigeon

anhmytran said:


> Here is an example of pigeon from inbred:
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> The Dam 1768027 has son 9265 and daughter 616.
> Even they are from different fathers, they are still brother and sister.
> *
> Here is the webpage that sells the pigeon (at $175):
> http://www.pigeonusa.com/html/sbrow3c.html
> *
> Another pigeon selling for $225 dollars
> http://www.pigeonusa.com/html/sbrow3d.html
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Again, we see brother and sister here, mother is in Brown Shade.
> *
> This hen is sold for $150 dollars:
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Another at $225 dollars:
> *
> http://www.pigeonusa.com/pedigrees/12122RPUSA12ped1.jpg[img]
> *
> Wherever I click, I see "inbred" and such kind of pedigree.
> *
> Although I do not like in breeding, this website is promoting in breeding.
> It also proves that I do not do that, but people keep inbreeding.
> *
> This PDF document shows the idea of Line-breeding:
> Mating all children and grand children from the same parents.
> [url]http://www.sahpa.asn.au/feedbreed/linebreed.pdf[/url]
> *[/QUOTE]
> 
> I am not sure half bro and sis mating will be enough to convince Mr Walt here but we shall see.


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## anhmytran

Pigeon Line Breeding Method Chart:
*








*
This chart is a copy from the PDF document in
http://www.sahpa.asn.au/feedbreed/linebreed.pdf
*
It looks complecated. However, the rule is pretty simple as that:
From the Root pair of bird - Father and Mother, we have 2nd generation
We inbreed Father with daughter, and Mother with son, and have 3rd generation.
Mate the Cock of 3G to Hen of 1G, mate the Hen of 3G to the Cock of 1G, to have 4G.
Since then, just mate the Cock to his own Nice, mate the Hen with her own Nephew.
Keep doing it generation to generation, and then mate Ant with Nephew, Uncle with
Niece occasionally, or even mate with Cocks or Hens of 1G.
*
In this theory, Line-Breed is slightly different from In-Breed that
All grand grand grand (many grands) children from Line-Bread are of a pair of pigeons
while All grand grand grand (many grands) children from in-Bread are of a single pigeon.
In general, Line-Breed and In-Breed are the same in mating close relatives.
*
From genetic view point, result from In breed is copies of a single pigeon, while line breed
results in the genotype of 50% alleles from mother and 50% alleles from father.
*
People are doing that in a hope that they can get back the set of DNA of the champion.
They never know that it is impossible to get a copy of a set of DNA by any means.
The DNA keeps evolving and evolving. There is no way of coming back.
*
In Cross-Breeding animals for Agriculture, experts use hundreds of parent (1st generation)
to produce hudreds of 2G, they call F1. It is a huge pool of F1, and they mate
the 2G or F1 from different parents, and it is the formation of a new strain.
In this way, we have animals with 50% alleles from one strain and another 50%
alleles from the other strain. They are not children of a single pair of ideal pigeons.
*


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## NZ Pigeon

This 4G you talk off, Is this scientific, I am more familiar with F1, BC1 etc. Never heard of G1, G2,

Also, What you say is scientifically incorrect, In both examples it is possible that the children will vary from both parents genetically. Remember the parents could have hidden genes that are allowed to pop up in the children, There are so many variables in pigeons that in both your examples ( as out there as they are ) all the children could vary and your examples could produce so many genetic possibilities which vary with every mating. Colour is only one example of a birds genetics but in both examples the parents could both be blue bar however they could produce a plain white, SO this would not be a direct copy of its parents in its colour genetics, This example can be applied to the non visible genetics of the birds also.


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## NZ Pigeon

anhmytran said:


> All of us are talking about theory of inbreeding.
> *
> How about the experience?
> We all agree that most of good pigeons are result of inbreeding.
> How many per cent of inbreeding pigeons are good pigeons?
> How many per cent of cross breeding pigeons are good pigeons?
> *
> To my reasoning:
> two champion pigeons have better chance to have good young *glings*
> than one champion pigeon mating to non-champion bird, and then
> continues on to mate with his or her own children and then grand children.
> *


What are Glings?????


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## anhmytran

4G is the new wave language talking about iphone Four Generation.
They are using 4G now, and going to have 5G.
In Biology, 1G - First Generation is F0, and 2G is F1, and so on.
*
In Breeding, general thinking is that each generation, each child get half
gene from father and half gene from mother. Therefore, inbreeding helps
us to get back 100% gene from ancestor to youngster. People do not know
genetic science yet. They have no idea about when the cell divide to make
sperms or eggs, the DNAs cross their parts to each other in pair. In doing
that the original DNAs from mother or father are changed with different alleles.
That is the reason I said


> People are doing that in a hope that they can get back the set of DNA of the champion.
> They never know that it is impossible to get a copy of a set of DNA by any means.
> The DNA keeps evolving and evolving. There is no way of coming back.


Life is a wonder.
There are so many factors that make a champion.
Not always the best pigeons in generic is the champion of the race.
It depends also in feeding and training as well.
They provide "One Loft Race" in thinking that it is fair for all pigeons.
Wrong. Totally wrong.
How can be fair to give all kids in the same school?
Some kids eat different food to be stronger, for their DNAs say so.
Go to a school and watch the left over on the plate of every kid!
It does not mean who eats more meat will grow more muscle than
kids who eat more vegetables or fish.
Nobody knows the best way to feed a kid to optimal his potential.
The same with the pigeons.
Coaches recorded many programs that trained athletics many years ago,
to develop a scientific study of training in sports and games.
(They keep their records in secret.)
Not for the racing homers.
I know nothing about breeding and training racing homers,
but I think that all famous people in sport are just merely lucky blind men.
They raise the birds by large quantity to have more chance to select the good ones.
And it happens to be the good way (feasible, practical).
If they learn or know about generic study, and sports, they would have been
more successful.
*


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## conditionfreak

Ha Ha. I have three half sisters and one half brother, that are half Chinese. Do we call each other brother and sister? Yes. But it is a term of endearment and not a correct and scientific term. We are in truth, half brothers and half sisters.

The words inbreed and line breed, exist in different forms for a reason. That reason is because they are not the same.

The examples above, do not show any mating of a brother and sister, but show breedings of half brothers and half sisters. Or of other relatives, such as father to daughter.

In truth, one could argue that something like that could be called "inbreeding". But not scientifically, in my opinion.

No one of note in the sport of racing pigeons, has intentionally bred, or would intentionally breed, full brothers and sisters to each other. Asking me to prove that no one has, is rediculous. Prove that you have never beat your wife. You can't. You can only prove whether or not someone has actually done it. How could I prove no one has ever in the history of pigeon keeping done it? Of course someone has. Someone has done everything there is possible to do.

But again, I ask that someone show me a pedigree of a racing pigeon with decent racing results, that is the product of a mating of nest mates. Full brother and sister.

No one has yet, and I seriously doubt anyone will be able too. Inbred is not line bred. That is why those different terms exist. Otherwise, we would just say "inbred", and not need the term "line bred".

Two different methods. Close, but not the same. This thread was about breeding a full brother and sister. Not a half brother and sister. Nor a father to a daughter.

Like I said. Go ahead and breed nest mates to each other, and let me know how that turns out in regards to racing performance and health.

Good luck with that. Like you yourself have already pointed out. It will result in many many culls. Far more than outbreeding or line breeding will result in. Do we really want that?

None of the above example pedigrees, show any matings of brothers and sisters. They show matings of half brothers and half sisters, or other relatives. But none show an actual brother and sister mating.

There is a difference. My half sister and I, and not nestmates. We are half brother and sister. Different fathers.

Not the same genes. Only half the same genes. My beloved sisters and brother look Chinese and I look hillbilly.  Not nest mates genetically. Closer than you and I for sure. But not nest mates.

I have made my point and am done with this thread. Until such time as someone shows me a pedigree and result sheet, as I requested. A champion from a brother and sister mating. Nest mates. Look up every champion racer you have ever heard of, and you will not find one.

There is a reason.


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## anhmytran

Thank you. I see your point.
I don't think I want to search for a pedigree of mating brother and sister.
People keep doing in breed, line breed, and brother-sister breed, hoping to get luck.


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