# Dealing with the COOPER HAWK !



## SmithFamilyLoft

My purpose in opening this new thread is to invite your comments who how you might be dealing with this magnificent predator. 

I had a young bird escape from the loft the other day, and within minutes, my resident Cooper claimed his first victim for 2005. I am hearing of a lot of fanciers who are now keeping their birds secure in the loft till as late as June. 

This is a radical departure from years past, when the Cooper was not as common. I also have heard that some fanciers are conducting business as usual, and that the YB's soon adapt to the Cooper, and even will have "Look Outs" which will warn the rest of the flock.

In talking with local fanciers, the "Cooper" is now the number #1 subject of discussion. If you have a sure fire way of discouraging the Cooper, in a humane way, without any harm to this protected bird, then please share your methods. I want to add this warning, that this site does not condone, any discussion which will harm any bird or animal, so please keep this in mind.


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## Rockie

Great question...one I have also been searching for an answer on!

I don't have a loft, I do feed feral pij's and lots of loft "escapees" at both home and where I work. Not only do I get Cooper's, Sharpshinned, American Kestrals, but I get the Red Tailed Hawk too! I would have to say that there are at least 3 sightings a day at home and work. 

Some have told me to feed in the bushes, under trees...but the smaller hawks go right in. I have saved many birds from hawk attacks and many more I have not. 

I struggle with the "should I feed or shouldn't I" for years now. When I hear of the loft keepers say that they keep them in until the hawks migrate (which where I am they are here probably 8 months out of the year) I don't know what I feel. 

I understand why, but I can't see depriving the pij's of their right and need to fly.
What is the most humane thing to do? 

I and many others I'm sure are with you and wanting some answer to this hawk situation. (and yes, I believe the hawks are wonderfully beautiful and would NEVER harm one...but boy do I chase them waving a flag and call them names.)


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## zoo keeper

Personally I am well stocked up on tennis balls from Walmart. Next I have a super sprayer on my hose. I figure the hawks can learn to play tennis with me or they can have a blasted bath.


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## re lee

The coopers seem to be every where this time of year. Some people have made traps for them drop traps. where thee is a hole big enough in the top for the cooper to get in but it can not get out as it has to fly up to the opening. These are 3 ft high traps. Coopers will take a bird off the loft tree wire house ect easyer then in flight. But a young not wingstong bird they can take in the sky with easy timing. the coopers notice when birds are out. you can chenge that timing. And stay with the birds. But you know coopers will come down with you being right there. mid mourning and mid afternoon is agood break for loft training. As coopers will show up early morning and mid noon and late afternoon. Then agin when the birds get more wing strong te can be seen for miles. coopers should move out in about 6 to 7 weeks if the weather improves. Around here the kite hawks come back in may. And they run coopers away And leave pigeons alone.


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## Barn Pigeon

I can't turn out my rollers or homers this time of the year for all the hawks. I have a pair that will hang around until about May here. N.C.


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## Webby

Even though were not allowed to in the city my nieghbor has chickens. I saw Cooper sitting on the coupe trying to figure out how to order take out.

My best advice is. Dont turn out more pigeons than you can afford to loose in one day.


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## Rockie

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I also have heard that some fanciers are conducting business as usual, and that the YB's soon adapt to the Cooper, and even will have "Look Outs" which will warn the rest of the flock.


I also try to encourage crows to visit my yard, using day old cat and dog food, etc. as they always chase away the hawks. I think for the amount of hawks that come to my yard, having crows around is a help vs. any damage crows can cause to other bird's eggs.

I guess if I had an actual loft, at least I would be able to watch over the pij's when they are outside. Of course this isn't a sure thing. Right now all I can do is as I do...and have my eyes glued to my windows facing my yard and making mad dashes outside (barefoot in the snow if I have to) to chase them away. I find that the bigger the hawk, the quicker they are to leave when they see me. The smaller ones can sit there and flick their tails at me for some time, with me yelling and waving at them the whole time. I did borrow my nephews super-soaker for just those times (yet to be used).


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## Happy

*Cooper Hawk*

Warren, Be glad you fly Racing Pigeons, as I do & the main problem Hawks are Coopers for ya. We don't lose too many Homers to the Coop's. The guys that are getting clobbered are the Roller Flyers.... The Peregrine Falcons that have been Hacked (Placed in Artifical Nest by well meaning Re-habbers) Inland in California & some other states "that wasn't there natural areas" are causing so much havoc that Many Roller flyers lose more of there birds per season to Hawks/Falcons than I breed in a year. The other Mr. big trouble for Pigeons or birds of most any kind is the Gos Hawk, but not so many flyers live where they "naturally" live & breed (above 7,000-9,000+ ft. altitude & mostly very Northern). Course they do migrate down to lower altitudes in Winter, but as I say very far North & no where near as common as the Coop's.. A lot of us now feel the Coop's are just a small rock in the road compared to the Peregrine Falcon! This is why the Peregrine Falcon & the Gos Hawk have been the "Choice" of all Falconers since time began...... Chasing Coop's, squirting them with water, flags on poles, yelling, etc., till birds get flying strong helps alot.. The best thing I know is to NOT FREELOFT & NEVER GIVE BATHS IN THE OPEN. I give mine there baths on the Fresno landing board wire enclosed, or in Flypens. Wet Pigeons, even adults have a "much harder" time escaping attacks, & freelofting persons have TRIPLE the trouble. Don't plant trees close to loft & get rid of as many as possible that are close. Coop's are ambushers & close trees etc. help them. they have a fast take off, but not a top end flyer. I was a Falconer for "many" yrs. & have flown/hunted with them all, (not anymore) along with my Racing & many yrs. of competing with Rollers... These last few yrs. Hawks have been extra plentiful as well.....The most killers I have seen with the "Racing Homers" is Power Wires, guide wires, etc.. They kill more Racing Pigeons than anything I know. Hap


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## Motherlodelofts

Looks like I have a cooper that just moved in , He hit a team up high today but didn't connect as they rarley do up high, wasn't so lucky with my late hatch team though as I'm missing one (of coarse it's the one that I really didn't want to loose). I thought that I kept a good eye on them but obviously I didn't. Personally I see them as nothing but an over populated nuisence and nothing more.


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## FT33

I also have a big hawk problem but it seems like its not just during a certain time of year but they hang around all year. I have built a hawk trap to try and catch them but what do you do with the hawk if you catch it? I am not sure what kind they are but here is a picture I took of one eating one of my pigeons. Does anybody know what kind it is?


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi FT33, 

Sorry to hear that you've lost one of your pigeons to a hawk. Please be aware however that it's illegal in most states and Canada to trap hawks without a permit, they are protected wildlife. Hopefully this thread will generate some alternative methods to deter hawks around the pigeons. How big was this hawk? It looks to me like either the infamous Coopers' that everyone is talking about, or the coopers smaller but equally deadly cousin - the sharp shinned hawk. This bird is either a female or an immature bird though going by it's colouration.


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## Lin Hansen

Hi Everyone,

FT33 posting that picture of the hawk is a remarkable coincidence to me for the following reason:

In over a year of feeding "my" feral flock regularly, ~today~ for the very first time, a hawk was after my birds and it looked just like the picture!

While returning from "taxi" duty (when you have a teenager, it seems you are always driving them ~somewhere~), as I turned into my block, the hawk flew right in front of my truck...looked like a gray missile, fast and sleek,...headed for my yard. I start laying on the horn and yelling (with the windows up, mind you) as I pulled into my driveway, fearing the worst. But, thankfully, no easy pickins for Mr. Hawk.

The flock took off, high in the sky with the hawk in pursuit...it was something to see. The flock was flying in fast circles, then split off into two flying circles with the hawk in the middle...seeming to not know who to go after. Then they all left my sight. About ten minutes later, the flock came back with no hawk following after. Most of the colored birds chose to hang out on the electric and phone pole wires on the street (I hear they do this in hawk season so as to have a better all around view of any danger.) Interestingly, the all white pigeons in the group chose to rest on my snow covered roof, where the white pigeons on the snow were almost invisible. Is this smart or what? Though I like to think that I can recognize most of "my" flock, I really don't know them all, but thankfully, I do not think there were any casualties...this time.

Just wanted to share this remarkable (to me!) story with all of you....here is my hopes and best wishes for the safety of everyone's birds from this beautiful, but dangerous predator.

Linda


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## re lee

Might call alocal game warden find out what you can do to prevent loss. even though protected a person retains the right to protect there property. So I thinking trapping would be approved.


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## Motherlodelofts

Robert it is their job to help you handle such situations, sometimes you have to be really really persistant though and that might mean going over thier heads, I know some that have gotten help from Falconers. On a good note, I found the bird that I thought I lost last night. But today had one taken down in my front yard by a smaller male, I started screaming like a little girl and got the bird back with just a slight injury.

Scott


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## Happy

*Pic. of Cooper Hawk*



FT33 said:


> I also have a big hawk problem but it seems like its not just during a certain time of year but they hang around all year. I have built a hawk trap to try and catch them but what do you do with the hawk if you catch it? I am not sure what kind they are but here is a picture I took of one eating one of my pigeons. Does anybody know what kind it is?


This Pic. is of a 1st yr. Female Cooper Hawk 2004 born. Hawks don't moult there 1st yr. of hatch like most birds so keep there imature feathers, but this Hawk will moult this yr. 2005 & every yr. after. Then get a Gray-ish back with Rust to Orange chest. The more moults they go through each yr. the darker & more enhanced the Gray back & Rust/Orange chest they get. The feet also get darker yellow each yr........ Hap


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## re lee

In the winter season Hawks migrate. And they become a problem. This is due to the protection they have recieved Making for a come back. Still yet I do think And I have heard of people trapping coopers relocating them or calling animal control for removel. And I talked to a person In dec that lives in kansas. That one trapped in his training avariy. And it seemed to have died trying to get out. So it probably became very excited when it could not get out. So trapping could pose danger to the cooper also. When I had problems I kept my birds in for a week then changed my flying time. And set by the loft For that time But when the birds were up awhile Sometimes the cooper would show up. And then I would have to keep a good watch when they started trapping. One time four wee on the board and it came from nowhere. And hit. But they got awy and it slid into the side of the loft And I was able to get it run off. But I do not fly now. And coopers still come around even land on the loft. About one time a week.


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## Mars

DO NOT TRAP ANY BIRD OF PREY!!! It is FEDERALLY ILLEGAL to possess or trap any federally protected bird WITHOUT a PERMIT!


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## nltrask

Over 4-5 years, I have also lost a couple of my white homers to the Cooper.  Both times I let them out late in the day. Didn't get the connection or realize that was part of the problem, until now. Since the pigeons have poor eyesight in dim light, they must not have seen it in time. 

I had the unfortunate chance to painfully observe 2 attacks in the past 4 weeks. One of my strong homers was attacked and got away, probably due to size and strength. He came back a couple of hours later right at dusk, bleeding but ok enough to be nursed back to normal in about 3 days. The other, had been on the lean side and we tried to chase the hawk, but he got away. It is so upsetting to see them swoop down out of nowhere and clamp onto the bird. The Cooper waited in a neighbor's tree until they were about to land and then chased them low so as to cause them to have to slow down for a fence or an obstacle. Sneaky old things!  It's probably harder for hawks to catch them in the open. What I don't get is there are all kinds of feral pigeons and doves around, the the Cooper goes after my nice whites. Does anyone know why the hawks don't attack the wild pigeons as much, or the adult crows?

From now on, I'm planning to be more careful about the time of day and weather. A long time pigeon-bird lover, friend of mine, said it is better to keep them exercised and in shape if at all possible so they can keep their speed up. He recently told me that late morning 11-12 or mid-afternoon 2-3pm may be the safest time of day- except before a storm as another pigeon forum-er commented. Also, another word of advice was to train fliers to go into the cage through open ended- 1 lb. coffee cans, and that will keep most hawks from being able to follow them in. Our resident mama Cooper is gonna get a flag to look at now and probably a strobe light too! - Glad to have found Pigeon-Talk, I didn't know there was a forum to exchange info on the internet until this year.


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## re lee

Checked with a local flyer He has not been seeing the coopers as much lately. Thats good maybe since its warming uyp they are moving out. He has had a good breeding season as to now. He has 64 young birds. Not bad for now.


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## Lin Hansen

nltrask said:


> What I don't get is there are all kinds of feral pigeons and doves around, the the Cooper goes after my nice whites. Does anyone know why the hawks don't attack the wild pigeons as much, or the adult crows?


Hi,

I am sure others will be along to give you more detailed answers to this question, but I have heard it is because the white pigeons stand out from the crowd and more often attract a predator's attention. In fact, most rehab places do not think white pigeons are suitable for release (that is, to live the feral life) for that reason.
Hope you are able to keep your birds safe....good luck.

Linda


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## Rockie

nltrask said:


> What I don't get is there are all kinds of feral pigeons and doves around, the the Cooper goes after my nice whites. Does anyone know why the hawks don't attack the wild pigeons as much, or the adult crows?


I'm sure the color plays a part as well. However, I am sad to tell you that the hawks attack feral pigeons constantly. I have two flocks, 1 small one of 15-20 at home and 1 large one of approx. 300-500 at work. Everyday the hawks go after them. If I am around, I chase them, screaming, waving, etc. I can usually scare them off that way and the pigeons can outfly them many times. When I don't see them take them, unfortunately I find just a pile of feathers. A few weeks ago I did save a pij that was hawk attacked. I was surprised when he got off of him and left him laying bleeding on the ground. I hadn't even had a chance to yell at him yet. I did nurse that baby back to health in 12 days, at which time I released him.

Anyway, again I wish I was wrong when I say the hawks love ferals and attack them constantly. 

Glad you found this site...always a pleasure to converse with a fellow pigeon lover.


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## nltrask

Lin Hansen said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am sure others will be along to give you more detailed answers to this question, but I have heard it is because the white pigeons stand out from the crowd and more often attract a predator's attention. In fact, most rehab places do not think white pigeons are suitable for release (that is, to live the feral life) for that reason. Hope you are able to keep your birds safe....good luck.
> 
> Linda


I figured color had something to do with it, but I do see wild pigeons and doves on power wires (like sitting ducks) right in the same area as my yard and haven't seen a Cooper go after them yet. Am also wondering why don't the Hawks go after the adult crows??- Does anyone know about that?

Trying to be very careful with my white rock doves when I do dove releases--(which is a pretty common thing in So. Calif.) is my number 1 goal. I really hadn't had much of a problem until the more recent past with Coopers. It seems that it has only been the past 2 years that the hawks have gotten worse around here in the San Fernando Valley though. I really hate to keep the birds cooped up too much which is one reason I enjoy the homers- because they come back! They also have the freedom to fly as they are truly beautiful and inspiring to watch.


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## nltrask

zoo keeper said:


> Personally I am well stocked up on tennis balls from Walmart. Next I have a super sprayer on my hose. I figure the hawks can learn to play tennis with me or they can have a blasted bath.


Thanks for the tip!


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## TAWhatley

*Crows & Mockingbirds ..*

I have a Cooper's that visits my backyard about once a week .. she is a BRAZEN HUSSY and will allow me to get within a couple of feet of her before even thinking about getting out of Dodge .. I yell, wave arms, and then get the hose .. she knows at that point that I'm going to blast her with the hose and will go sit on the telephone wires and glare at me. She gets a sparrow now and then but is really after my caged birds .. that, I won't allow. I would never harm the hawk, but I also will never let her get to my caged birds if I can help it.

The crows and mockingbirds are fearless .. they swoop at her, scream, chase her in the air, and why she doesn't go for them, I don't know but am thankful that she doesn't. 

"My" Cooper's is a very large female with a HUGE attitude!

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002

TAWhatley said:


> I have a Cooper's that visits my backyard about once a week .. she is a BRAZEN HUSSY
> Terry



LOL!! TOO FUNNY TERRY!. That was a good way to put it


I have a theory on why some hawks won't go after crows. Crows are formidable themselves. They will defend themselves when caught with a very strong beak. In other examples of predators and prey in nature, the predator often gets confused when it's prey fights back. Also, they don't like to risk injuries to themselves because this could mean the end of their ability to hunt again. Crows could damage a hawks eye in a scuffle and that would be the ultimate demise of the hawk. The larger owls will readily go after and hunt crows because of their sheer size and strength. Goshawks (another larger cousin of the Coopers) will also hunt them. Coopers would be pushing the envelope trying to hunt a bird as large as itself with a mighty powerful mandible. 

Again, just a theory,


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Colour*

I here from a lot of guys, that red is "hawk bait". Of course these fellows only have blue by and large. I have on the other hand, by and large, have red and silvers.

My Cooper seems to hit my few blue colored, more often then not. But, I think it will hit any of my birds, if the opportunity presents itself. With a preference for the more young and inexperienced.

I appreciate the ideals which have been presented, although the tennis balls and water hose, is put into use, once an attack is under way. 

As anyone used an Owl decoy ? Or Crow decoy ? Any kind of device that has been set in the yard, to discourage an attack in the first place ? I must admit, I am not real encouraged. I have had bad ole Mister Cooper hit a bird, and take off, within a few feet of me. He hit and was gone, almost before I could react. He comes to expect me screaming and throwing objects, I think to him, it is simply part of the "game"


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## Motherlodelofts

Warren on the owl thing, pretty much what ever you do they get used to. I had a RedTail snag a bird yesterday, I could'nt believe it . There was no chase involved he just kinda joined in the team and then just reached out and grabbed on. It was easy for him because the birds are used to them.


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## re lee

What about a paint gun. It wont kill or injure the hawk. And it washes off . It will sting a little But after a time or two. The hawk may just decide to move on. I would.


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## nltrask

*To all the hawk talkers*

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments about general Coopers, crow theories and the "brazen hussy!" I have one like her too and there's no question that hawks are intelligent- I'll give them that much. Most of us don't like to see any wild bird get caught, but I'd rather Mrs. Cooper go after the wild ones than my pets. (sorry to those that feed wild pigeons and other birds). We would all prefer that hawks were vegetarians, but have to remember that they must eat too, and they do keep the rodent population down. 

It's warfare though, when it comes to my birds!  I'm to the point of getting a paintball gun or high powered squirt gun, besides trying the flag, strobe light and tennis balls. Have I missed anything?  (I'm gonna need a new storage shed!) Last question: How many balls does the tennis ball person lose to the neighbors in a year?


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## pigeonraiser

Ive heard that owl and crow decoys sometimes work.Also heard of using mirrors.


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## elvis_911

Pigeon Raiser is correct i recently got one..i havent seen a hawk in days.. and espeically the owls!

Elvis


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## WhiteWingsCa

Owl decoys don't work -- our neighbour put one up on his TV tower to keep our pigeons off it --- didn't keep the pigeons away, and doesn't bother the hawks either.  

I would imagine a Crow decoy would be the same. Might work for a little while, but then it would have no effect.

Mirrors only work in the vicinity of the mirror - the theory is, the hawk sees his reflection, and is distracted or startled by it, and hopefully the pidgie has time to get inside before Mr. Hawk makes his grab.

Hubby heard last year that if you glue old CD's to the loft roof - in pairs -- it looks like giant owl eyes to the hawks, and scares them off. This works to some extent -- but only when the hawk is flying right over the loft. If your birds are up in the air, it doesn't do much. (We actually watched the hawk swoop down over the loft one day -- see the CD's, and he braked and flew away. LOL)

Hawks are always going to be a problem, and nothing you do is going to be 100% effective, unless you never let your birds out at all. Hubby saw a Cooper's try and grab one of our birds as it came in for a landing -- the hawk KNEW that the bird would land on the roof edge, then jump down to the landing board -- and it aimed for the board, figuring on arriving there the same time the pidgie did. Smart pigeon caught sight of the hawk at the last minute, and dove UNDER the board -- the hawk grabbed at empty air.  

A friend of ours has had a Cooper's hawk fly right over his head, just about hitting him, and grab a youngster off his landing board - three feet away from him.  

Crows in the neighbourhood help, a lot. We put out food for the crows, to encourage them to stick around.

And colour (the pigeons') does play a part -- but it is the "odd man out", not the particular colour, that is the problem. A white (or red) pigeon in a flock of blue bars will most likely get picked off first (the hawk can more easily zero in on one particular bird, instead of trying to pick a blue from a bunch of blues). Likewise, a blue in a flock of whites will get nailed first.

Hawks are wonderful creatures, I love watching them. It is upsetting to lose one of your favourite pigeons to them, I know -- but that's part of having pigeons, unfortunately. If you don't want to lose them - keep them inside.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Whitewings and nice to have you back

Thanks for offering your experienced perspective of hawks and pigeons and what does and doesn't work. I wish you were around more to help out in giving your take on things.


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## WhiteWingsCa

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Whitewings and nice to have you back
> 
> Thanks for offering your experienced perspective of hawks and pigeons and what does and doesn't work. I wish you were around more to help out in giving your take on things.



Hi Brad!

Thanks for the welcome back.

I've been busy busy with work and family life, and haven't spent as much time on my forums this winter as I'd like to.

Things seem to be changing a bit though, and I hope to be hanging around a bit more again.

Just have to get used to the 'new' set up here..... not as easy to to navigate as the old one, but I'll manage!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Mr. Cooper Strikes Again*

Two days ago, I was attempting to resettle 10 YB's. To make a long story short, 8 YB's are now AWOL. Mr. Cooper was sitting not 10 feet from my loft when I came home. If anyone reading this, wants to make a quick, $100,000 or so, design a legal device to keep Mr. Cooper away from a pigeon loft.


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## TerriB

Warren,

How heartbreaking! So sorry about your young birds and the lost potential.


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## Norwich-guy

I found an article on this subject i will quote it. i hope it helps

How i control the problem with very few losses,from about March to mid-summer to sometimes late summer. I'm talking of losses from cooper's hawks,falcons, and other birds of prey large enough to take our birds. My remedy is the rusty crowned falcon, known to most as the sparrow hawk. A subspecies of the peregrine falcon, too small to pose a threat to pigeons whatsoever. They just don't bother each other at all. But put a box for a nest in the winter well before spring (nesting time) in a nearby tree or a pole 10 feet high or more. They can't resist! They soon claim territory which they fiersely protect from other birds they consider a threat. Crowned falcons are very fast and maneuverable flyers and "kick butt" on the above mentioned. Instead of hawk killing pigeons its the little falcon to the rescue. And its very entertaining to watch. But the show doesn't last long. Much better than shooting,trapping, snaring or mirrors. I have four boxes in a three acre area. two of them fifty yards from my loft. Sparrow hawks are not shy of people when it comes to a nice nest box. Just don't tamper with it. I live in a bad area for coopers hawks and i have had heavy losses in the past. But for six months now i have seen almost none in the area. Another good thing is that crowned falcons nest in the same box year after year. I know this from experience as i was a falconer for many years. I know they will be back next spring. Some feed stores have nesting boxes for sale that can be modified. Caution: Entrance holes must not be larger than three and a half inches in diammeter and must be round. Otherwise, owls may steal young from the nest and that wouldn't help us or the sparrow hawk. When completed put two inces or sawdust or pine needles in the bottom of the box.

The box size is 10" wide by 15" high by 10" deep with the 3 1/2" hole in the middle of the box.

Its to late to start now but maybe this winter you could try it.


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## Birdmom4ever

I just gave up on flying and focused instead on breeding beautifully colored rollers for show--I'm concentrating on baldheads. I also raise some American fantails for show. I've talked to other roller fanciers in my area and they said the same thing, that they lost birds every time they flew them. Coopers hawks are abundant in our area and there are lots of big trees in our residential neighborhood for them to hide in. I miss seeing my pigeons fly, but I don't miss losing them. From what I've heard around here, the Bay Area, you may as well give up on flying rollers. It's homers or nothing. At least the homers are strong and fast enough to get away much of the time.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Norwich guy, 

I have to say....I really like your suggestion to deter Coopers and other would be avian predators from stalking and hunting domestic pigeons. I think this is the FIRST positive and workable plan I've heard yet. I know sparrowhawks aren't very big but I did think that they would try to take on a full grown pigeon if able. I know they are smaller than your average pigeon, but hawks of any nature are just that...hawks. Good thinking on this and on a "natural" and pro-active way to help pigeons rather than a preventive method. I can see this way working to a good degree. The thing is, can people successfully attract these hawks in a more confined space, rather than only sprawling acres of land?


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## Norwich-guy

Hi pigeonpal2002,

I hesitated writing this tonly because i thought a sparrowhawk would attack a pigeon too.I havn't flown birds in over 20 years and can't remember if any of my birds were ever chased off by a sparrowhawk,The article i quoted was from a roller breeder in California,So in reality i really don't know if it would work or not. But if it does, he may be on to something here. And good call on letting Canadian fanciers know about the C.P.F.A im new to this site and wasn't sure if anybody had posted the site before, i've been a member for many years now.


Bill


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## Grizzled

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Two days ago, I was attempting to resettle 10 YB's. To make a long story short, 8 YB's are now AWOL. Mr. Cooper was sitting not 10 feet from my loft when I came home. If anyone reading this, wants to make a quick, $100,000 or so, design a legal device to keep Mr. Cooper away from a pigeon loft.


The Cooper Hawk is similar to the Goshawk, which creates problems in much of Canada.
I have found that pigeons loitering on rooftops from November to March are prime targets. This creates a problem where settling youngsters is concerned. I got into the habit of breeding a little later in the season and locking my birds inside during the period from November to March and found that I had very few problems with hawks as a result. This system may not be suited for everyone depending on their race schedule etc., but hawks are a constant threat for all of us and once they lock on to your loft they can be very difficult to deal with.


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## Birdmom4ever

I really like your suggestion, Norwich-guy. Especially since all cavity nesters could use a little help because humans have depleted their nest sites by removing dead trees that would otherwise provide nesting cavities. We had a family of kestrels in nesting in the palm trees across the street 7 or 8 years ago. The trees were removed and I haven't seen much of them since. They are beautiful little hawks.


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## ZigZagMarquis

*cough* 

... well, not really.


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## elvis_911

A family of Crows would do wonders to keep the Hawks away,due to the west nile virous,even the Crows are begining to disappear.I read about putting 2 CD disks together to look like Owl eyes on top of your loft somtimes works to fool the Hawks,It might be worth a try.


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## whitesnmore

*Cooper Hawk deterent*

I just happened to watch a Hawk try to have Easter Dinner at my loft yesterday afternoon, his approach was twarted by a 10 year old German Shepard female that is very territorial of her yard and is very protective of the Pigeons. She must have seen him take the last one and is now "the lookout" My pigeons are used to her (except for the new ones) and will land right in the yard by her and not give her a second glance. Best deterrent I can think of!!!!!


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## Motherlodelofts

I have a pair of Kestrels down the road about a half mile away, and yes if you could get them to call your general area your Cooper problems would be minimal , They are relentless on Coopers


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## victor174

*my big mistake*

i have been breeding rollers for over 20 years and its one thing that i realize now, is that hawks are creatures of habit, if they have a food source on a regular basis they will continue to prey on ur flock. For over ten years i would let my birds fly to get exercise and a little freedom from being in a cage all day, but losing at least 5 birds a week for 2 months got me thinking, i tried to change the days i would let them fly and the birds of prey would come out of nowhere it got to the point where i would see peregrines, red tails and coopers all at the same time going after my flock, i was scared to let my birds fly, in the area that i live thats very unusual, in the high desert of california, i hope that no one makes the mistake that i did and provide the birds of prey a steady stream of sacraficial lambs cause once they know where to get food regularly, it will be very difficult to get rid of them.


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## upcd

*Hello To Everyone!*

Yes, After lossing 2 breeding rollers. Everybody in until it save again. I fly but not with a pattren. Don't want anybody to get the idea dinner served at my house. If you know what I mean. I fly then feed so there in a hurry to get back. But I thinking I could use a larger trap. So more of my birds could get in quicker.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

whitesnmore said:


> I just happened to watch a Hawk try to have Easter Dinner at my loft yesterday afternoon, his approach was twarted by a 10 year old German Shepard female that is very territorial of her yard and is very protective of the Pigeons. She must have seen him take the last one and is now "the lookout" My pigeons are used to her (except for the new ones) and will land right in the yard by her and not give her a second glance. Best deterrent I can think of!!!!!


 Now all you need, Whitesmore, is a set of wings on them there shepards !!!


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## zoo keeper

Hawks !!! What a pain. Well I have a pair of cooper hawks residing in the tree in the neighbor yard. Just a mere 200 feet from my loft. I have intently watched them and cussed them, but they dont leave. I had a death 3 days ago which I am sure was from the hawk. I found a pigeon in my loft dead with wounds and up against the wire with feathers sticking through. I am assuming the hawk got him through the wire. Blasted Hawks. I inventoried my birds yesterday and I appear to be missing 8 young birds, so I think he is considering my loft a restaurant. Blasted hawks!!!


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## halfwatt

Attract crows around your house by feeding them, they will run off hawks. Worked for my freinds and I for the past several years now.


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## zoo keeper

Well, somehow I need to persuade the hawks to move out of the tree on go north or south or somewhere else.


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## casnyder

halfwatt said:


> Attract crows around your house by feeding them, they will run off hawks. Worked for my freinds and I for the past several years now.



I've got redtails and crows on the hill here. I feed the crows (and mourning doves, and blue jays and...)

Occasionally something runs a crow around the hill, occasionally I see a crow chasing a hawk. Still have 'em all though. Been that way for years. Maybe the crows and the redtails keep the smaller hawks at bay though?


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## cateyes

hello

i would just like to add something new and interesting. If a great horned owl moves into your area you can probably live in peace then as they will take out coopers hawks and falcons. In fact places in the UK are wanting to reintroduce them to lower the goshhawk populations. As soon as one of these owls moves into the area the hawks and falcons will slowly dissapear. Their trick is they get them at night and while they are on their nest and seem to like the "flavor" of raptors.


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## re lee

good deal most the hawks have moved on and the miss, kite hawks are back they keep most all otherhawks from comomig around. And the pigeons know they mean no harm. I have seen many times a kite hawk and pigeon sitting next to each other.


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## pigeonpeddler

*Bottle Rockets*

I use bottle rockets from fourth of July. I shoot them off a few times before releasing any birds. It seems to work as before I had hawk problems. I always keep some handy just in case one wonders to close. The pigeons got used to it by now, but the hawks a certainly scared of them. so far, so good. My opnion only.


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## lawman

My brother and I both fly pigeons in So. Cal. our area is inundated with coopers. We had a lot of problems with them, one even went all the way into my brothers loft and killed several birds before it could be caught and was relocated. this continued until we took our birds to an avian vet who speciallized in racing homers. when he first observed our birds he wanted to know why we were even at his office. He could see nothing wrong. samples of the birds were taken at our request and three subclinical ailments were found. even though the birds looked and acted like no problem existed , the problem was there, even the vet was surprised. we used medicine provided by the vet, it cost a fraction of what we had been spending on medicine. within three weeks the birds were better than ever and guess what no more hawk problems.

Its my opinion that hawks are like any other preditor, they smell the sickness and go after the easy kill, even when we ourselves cant see it. Anyone who is having hawk problems need to first make sure they have their birds tested by a qualified avian vet. follow the course of medication you are given to the letter and see if your hawk problems dont disappear. I know my brothers loft as well as my own loft have not been bothered since last year when we did this. you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by doing this.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*I AM GIVING UP & GIVING IN*

This year, I have used all kinds, shapes and forms of Hawk "Deterrents". My suggestion is to save your money. I do not believe that ANY of them work.
I am in the week of our 3rd race of the YB series, and Mister Cooper is there throughout the day, picking me off every month or so, with attempts several times a week, normally not successful.

I have just resigned myself to the fact, that I may have to help feed, a pair of resident Coopers. I have a general ideal of their nest area, which is near a small stream.

Any ideal, how many pigeons, a Cooper will eat in a week ? Don't know, don't care. My birds will now have to learn to adapt, to their natural predator.


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## Happy

*Bottle Rockets for Hawks.*



pigeonpeddler said:


> I use bottle rockets from fourth of July. I shoot them off a few times before releasing any birds. It seems to work as before I had hawk problems. I always keep some handy just in case one wonders to close. The pigeons got used to it by now, but the hawks a certainly scared of them. so far, so good. My opnion only.


Pigeonpeddler, I think your Bottler Rockets to detour Hawks/Falcons are the best I've ever heard. I've Flown Falconry, Raced Pigeons, & Compentetion Flown Rollers most of my life & never heard of this. We are starting to have migratory Raptors now in So. Calif., & will try this before I release. Guess a person would have to watch fire danger spots, neighbors, but I'm OK at my house. Great idea.... Hap


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## lawman

Warren go get your birds checked......


lawman said:


> My brother and I both fly pigeons in So. Cal. our area is inundated with coopers. We had a lot of problems with them, one even went all the way into my brothers loft and killed several birds before it could be caught and was relocated. this continued until we took our birds to an avian vet who speciallized in racing homers. when he first observed our birds he wanted to know why we were even at his office. He could see nothing wrong. samples of the birds were taken at our request and three subclinical ailments were found. even though the birds looked and acted like no problem existed , the problem was there, even the vet was surprised. we used medicine provided by the vet, it cost a fraction of what we had been spending on medicine. within three weeks the birds were better than ever and guess what no more hawk problems.
> 
> Its my opinion that hawks are like any other preditor, they smell the sickness and go after the easy kill, even when we ourselves cant see it. Anyone who is having hawk problems need to first make sure they have their birds tested by a qualified avian vet. follow the course of medication you are given to the letter and see if your hawk problems dont disappear. I know my brothers loft as well as my own loft have not been bothered since last year when we did this. you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by doing this.


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## bartuska

My 8 year old son wanted a remote control helicopter for his birthday. My husband and I went to a local hobby store to look at them I had no idea how complex they are as far as speed, distance, agility, etc. Very cool! As the guy was talking my husband looked at me reading my mind and said, "There wouldn't be any hawk problems with this flying around the yard". 
We didn't get the helicopter because my son is too young==but if hawks become a problem I will purchase one. I believe these birds would not appreciate a loud, active yard--especially one with a loud, active sky above it. I'm not saying to harass the hawk--but just a regular unusual activity would give a wild bird second thoughts about hanging around. 
I do do the bottle rocket thing now--we fire off a few a week just in hopes of intimidating any migrating hawks looking for a winter stay. 
So far so good---we'll see.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

bartuska said:


> My 8 year old son wanted a remote control helicopter for his birthday. My husband and I went to a local hobby store to look at them I had no idea how complex they are as far as speed, distance, agility, etc. Very cool! As the guy was talking my husband looked at me reading my mind and said, "There wouldn't be any hawk problems with this flying around the yard".
> We didn't get the helicopter because my son is too young==but if hawks become a problem I will purchase one. I believe these birds would not appreciate a loud, active yard--especially one with a loud, active sky above it. I'm not saying to harass the hawk--but just a regular unusual activity would give a wild bird second thoughts about hanging around.
> I do do the bottle rocket thing now--we fire off a few a week just in hopes of intimidating any migrating hawks looking for a winter stay.
> So far so good---we'll see.


Any ideal if this comes in a "Black Hawk" model, complete with air to air missles ?


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## bartuska

That's a ggod one! I know you can put smokers on the side of them--that woould be pretty irritating to the average hawk.
Look at my post on General Discussions that I posted today. My flock had a run in with a flock (is that what you call them?) of migrating hawks this am. Those birds are beauitful, and have their place in the chain of life, etc. but I am developing a real distaste for them. 
I'd like you to read my story--it's pretty amazing what happened.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> This year, I have used all kinds, shapes and forms of Hawk "Deterrents". My suggestion is to save your money. I do not believe that ANY of them work.
> I am in the week of our 3rd race of the YB series, and Mister Cooper is there throughout the day, picking me off every month or so, with attempts several times a week, normally not successful.
> 
> I have just resigned myself to the fact, that I may have to help feed, a pair of resident Coopers. I have a general ideal of their nest area, which is near a small stream.
> 
> Any ideal, how many pigeons, a Cooper will eat in a week ? Don't know, don't care. My birds will now have to learn to adapt, to their natural predator.


 When I wrote this I was frustrated, as I am sure many of you are that must deal with a Cooper about the loft every day. I do not want to give the impression, that I don't care. I do care. I have read every post on this thread, I have read every article I get my hands on, I have spoken with pigeon people around the country. I am just convinced, that there is no gaget, tool, program, ideal, that is going to work 100% of the time.

My best suggestion, based on my personal research, is if you want to avoid hawk attacks in an area where they live and prosper, then keep your birds locked inside a double wire mesh loft. 

If you own a performance breed, and want them to fly outside the protected loft, be prepared for the very real possiblity, that sooner or later, the hawk will be successful. 

Over the last three years, with hundreds of birds out flying, I have "Only" lost two pigeons, in spite of the fact, that a Cooper has attempted to grab them at least a hundred times, that I know of. There were many more successful catches, but I was able to intervene and my pigeons escaped. 

So, please take what I said above in context. Even though I have in reality lost only a few, it is very emotionally disturbing to see. I bring this up now, because someone has taken exception to these comments.

I view flying my birds and hawk attacks like riding a motorcycle. Ride one long enough, and sooner or later, the odds are you are going to take a spill. I have just accepted that fact, and the risks. I own racing pigeons, and it is impossible to race them if they are never left out to fly. 

Please forgive me, if in my frustration, my wording, made me appear insensitive.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Cooper vs Cooper*

I saw something the other morning that I would not have believed except for the fact, that I saw it with my own eyes.

My wife brought to my attention that there was a Cooper Hawk by our loft so I went to investagate and I saw him take off from sitting on top of what I thought was a pigeon. Turns out, it was another Cooper Hawk that was partially eaten.  

Now, I don't know if the one Cooper killed another Cooper, or if the one Cooper had died and the other Cooper was takeing advantage of this for a meal. But, I had never heard or read of such a thing. I though Coopers only ate meals that they had taken. And if that is the case, I never heard of a Cooper killing and eating another Cooper.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Warren, 

Are you sure it wasn't a cooper's eating a sharp shinned hawk? The two species are nearly identical in shape, colouration and body type. The only real different is the sizes. Sharp shinned hawks are about pigeon sized but slimmer with a longer tail.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Nope, I am pretty darn sure that it was a Cooper, as there was still quite a bit left. At first I thought that a cat had started to dispose of the remains, and it was this Coopers mate or something. But, later that afternoon the Cooper was back finishing his meal !! I mean I have never heard of such a thing ? Could this mean that they are so hungrey that they are resorting to eating their own kind ??


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Warren, 

That is very odd. I've heard of larger hawks hunting the smaller ones. Eagles that will kill red tailed hawks, great horned owls eating hawk owls etc. But I've never really heard of a hawk, scavenging on or killing it's own kind. Maybe the one was already dead (like you said) and the bird was very hungry


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## Birdmom4ever

I've never heard of this either. Pretty weird.


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## rialize

Solitary male hawks will kill other males hawks that have entered their territory, and sometimes even females that do the same. Hawks that live in groups will also attack other hawks that violate their boundaries. Depending on the amount of habitat for the hawks in your area, the hawk that was killed could have wandered into the other's hawks area in order to find food. 

The smaller the available habitat, the smaller the individual territories become, and the harder it is for hawks to avoid getting into the territory of others.

Perhaps this was the case with these hawks.

Laura


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Laura, 

I think you're right! This makes a lot of sense to me and definitely sounds plausible when talking about predatory species. I know other predators do this, but I couldn't remember whether or not I'd heard of this behaviour in hawks or not.

GREAT THINKING!!!!!!


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## rialize

These are just a few things of the many you learn when you volunteer at a wildlife rehablitation center over the summer! I really recommend it.

Eagles are the birds that do this mainly, but many hawks are known to do it as well, when given the right conditions. It's the first thing I thought of when I read the post. 

Laura


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## Pigeonpal2002

Well done Laura...excellent observations and memory about these aspects that had elluded us all! LOL

I bet you love working there, I would myself if I had the spare time....there are all kinds of animals to learn about and just seeing them would be payment enough really.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

rialize said:


> Solitary male hawks will kill other males hawks that have entered their territory, and sometimes even females that do the same. Hawks that live in groups will also attack other hawks that violate their boundaries. Depending on the amount of habitat for the hawks in your area, the hawk that was killed could have wandered into the other's hawks area in order to find food.
> 
> The smaller the available habitat, the smaller the individual territories become, and the harder it is for hawks to avoid getting into the territory of others.
> 
> Perhaps this was the case with these hawks.
> 
> Laura


 WOW !  

Laura, they were males ! I actually live in the city limits, there are fields and trees all around, but a lot less then a few miles to the east or north, so I am thinking you are correct, it makes sense now. 

There appears to be a very generous population of Coopers year round, and I suspect that the nearby stream also offers some enticement. Thank you for the information. If I had not seen it myself, I would not have believed that this sort of thing takes place. They must really take their terrtority pretty seriously !


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## re92346mos

You know what I do, go outside a yell, jump, wave my arms, go crazy when my birds are out and there are hawks around. Some I have scared off, some look at me like I am crazy. If you have crows around feed them, they are good at running off hawks!


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## old dutch loft

i chatted with a fellow that raised alot of rollers and he complained to a local warden who just shrugged him off,with a warning lol so he called the feds and they mailed him a permit,he shot the hawk and that was that.you do have a right to protect personal property from predation in any form.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*What happened Mister Cooper ?*

Could just be my wishful thinking, but since I have embraced Ole Mister Cooper who flies overhead several times a day, it ocurred to me, that it has been years since he actually caught any of my birds !  Almost without fail, Mister Cooper is trying his best to catch one of my YB team, and for quite some time, I realized he has never really gotten close since was it 2005 ?

I never let birds out which are not in good health and condition, so quite frankly they are simply too fast. The only time he ever gets close is when they are immature and thankfully, there are only a few weeks that he even has a chance. 

I find myself looking forward to his visits....he can turn a quick hour loft fly...turn into a marathon lasting for hours ! Why bother road training ? And trapping ? He helps get them in real fast, no sitting outside on a line or rooftop, no sir re.....

I wish I would have thought of this new "Training Aid" sooner !


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## Barn Pigeon

Last Saturday as I was waiting for race birds to return from 150 mile race I have three coopers and 2 redtails come by. I have lost 1 bantam hen and two pullets in a weeks time. My racers where flying around this evening and I walked around back and Mr. Cooper was sitting in a tree in backyard just waitng to make a move. I knew I had a few hawks in the area ,but didn't know it was this bad.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

The other day Ole Mister Cooper managed to break the relative period of calm, by grabbing onto my star racer for a moment. The bird will recover, but the racing career is now over for this particular bird. I wish there was a simple easy solution to protect our birds, but the answer is not yet forthcoming.


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## Pidgey

Warren,

Have you ever read one of my posts about getting a local, licensed falconer to trap the bird? That's what I did and I've had a relative calm year since then.

Incidentally, you're never completely safe even in your birds can fly circles around a Cooper's because there's a racer here in my town that had one trap into his actual loft. He found several birds dead inside, caught the hawk inside the loft and hauled it 30 miles away to release. I guess when the hawk followed a homer through the trap, it went wild killing for the fun of it.

Pidgey


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## SmithFamilyLoft

So far in 2006 there have been four Coopers which have been trapped and hauled away, and normally a few weeks later another Cooper will move in... 
So the trapping may not totally resolve the problem. Mother Nature must have intended for the Cooper to keep the pigeon population in check.


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## re lee

Coopers are here to stay it looks like now. And will probably breed even more. Dealing with them And flying pigeons will become an art by its self. Only thing Is train the birds hard to stay up and when they drop the have to be taught to trap fast. Less birds will be taken this way. When loft flying. Now races. The old cooper can chase them down And there really is not an answer for that The pigeon will have to renew its escape methods Kind of rebuild its instinct To survive. And trapping the cooper may become a common thing.


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## christina11

I have only had one of my pigeons taken by a hawk, a coopers hawk that is.

Sadly she was also my favourit pigeon.  

I have heard of using shiney metal balls too.

This is my meathod of keeping hawks away.. I don't use all of them.

Make crow calls every so often as loud as you can ... as crows dive on hawks alot and bother them away so hawks are usualy carefull not to desturb them.

Attract crows or put up fake statues of crows around or even play of tape of crow calls very loud.

Feed and attract other birds like starlings,sprarrows ect.. this way there are more birds around to be on the look out for hawks, for me as soon as a sparrow makes a warning call all my pigeons look up and around for hawks.

Last option... keep those tenis balls stored up!


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## Birdmom4ever

In my neck of the woods even racing homer enthusiasts keep their birds in until next spring. Racing season just finished a couple weeks ago, as I understand it, and they won't fly again until training next year's birds. Mind you, I'm not a racing homer fancier but a show pigeon breeder. I gave up on flying my rollers a long time ago because we have so many hawks around and rollers are easy pickings for Cooper's hawks. I don't think there's any sure-fire way to protect your pigeons from hawks if you fly them.


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## Guest

just wanting to put the cooper, sharp shined hawk numbers into perspective a little from a bird watchers eye view here .. capturing and relocating these birds of prey really doesnt help much during the migration as their numbers are so great at this time of year that they are quicky replaced by others as warren already pointed out in his earlier post ...I mention sharp shines too because they are just a little smaller in size then a coopers hawk but many do mistake them for the coopers as they are almost identical otherwise ,yet they can easily take a pigeon just the same . I am attaching a site of a place not far off from where I live called hawk mountian ,they do a fall migration bird of prey count on a daily basis and its posted right on the site so you can see how many ofeach kind passed by each day,todays count being 283 Sharp-shinned Hawk and 33 Cooper's Hawk ,33 doesnt sound like a whole lot compared to the sharpies but you have to remember that these birds are passing in one area alone so imagine if that was your back yard on any given day  kinda scarey if you ask me but thats what your up against when thinking of the safety of your pigeons  I myself have given up flying my birds for the year as there isnt a day that goes by that I dont see a hawk or two flying thru my yard every time I am out there during the day ,morning ,noon or nite  lost to many already and its just time to hang up the wings til next year for me


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## Guest

sorry i forgot the site hehe here ya go take care all  
http://www.hawkmountain.org/default.shtml


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## Feather

I saw a large hawk the other day being pursued by many crows. I haven't even seen many crows around here lately. I thought that maybe it was a red tail hawk, as the coloring was rusts and browns. It landed on the top of the telephone pole, and as I looked closer, I saw that it's beak did not resemble the red tail, but instead came straight out from it's head and then turned down. More like an eagle. The bird was small for an eagle. 

I ran inside the house to get the binoculars, and when I returned it was gone. There are no eagles around here, but about an hours drive away 40,200 acres have burned due to an arsonist. The fire was just contained yesterday. The scary part was my rabbits, Yorke, and chihuahuas were all out in the yard.

Could it have been an eagle? What bird that resembles a large hawk has a beak like this?

Are there small eagles that look like the underside of their wings are painted?

Feather


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## Baby Goose

Before I even signed up for Pigeon Talk I had taken GOOSE outside to fly a little bit. He had never gone any distance and I wasnt even sure he could fly. I was "walking him" in my front yard when I heard flapping, he jumped up and raced for the front door of the house (which was CLOSED) and swished away and out of sight along with the HAWK...

It rained all week, I searched and finally faced the reality that he was most likely DINNER...I had just lost a family dog 2 days prior and built a little grave out side. I just COULDNT bear to put another little grave out there for GOOSE, well....


My oldest daughter came to visit and about 2 hours into her stay she mentioned that my neighbor directly behind me also must have a PET PIGEON... (laughs) My husband looked at me and simply said... "GET IN THE TRUCK" 

Sure enough, he was hiding out in a garage. The people didnt know what to think of him, but knew he must be tame. I walked into their garage and he flew right to my arm.... MY BABY GOOSE!~ 

Since I am not a trainer, or have racers, my PIGEON will never get to be BAIT again, he just doesnt have the pertection of a flock nor the learned skills. 
Sometimes I feel like I limited his life by making him a pet. Afterall... a bird that will never SOAR the skyline. It saddens me, but I also know that It is my job to keep him safe.


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## Feather

Well said Baby Goose!

I'm thinking that because of the fire, that there are preditors out there that I am not trained for. I have never had to worry about my full grown rabbits or little dogs. But our natural preditors don't wear a beak like that. And we are responsible for their well being.

On the other hand it is horrific what is happening to the animals in that fire. 

Feather


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## LuisO

Hey Everyone,

I've been reading the threads and thought I'd might mention a really cool yet scary experiance I had Yesterday afternoon. 

I dropped my aunt off at work. She works at the Harris Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City. It is a bayfront resort with a huge bridge that goes over the water to another small city. Well I went out there to check the fishermen out and when I looked into the air I could not believe my eyes.

Just 10-15 miles away from my loft are Peregrine Falcones! It was the very first time I ever saw one in the wild. My blood was pumping with excitment and horror. These birds are not afraid. I hope to catch them on video and uploading the videos to YouTube so that everyone can watch.

I couldn't believe seeing them hunt and dive 100+ miles right in front of my eyes at SEAGULLS! I cant wait to get photos up!

O, should I worry any? LOL

Luis


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## andinla

*I live near the beach in*

southerfn California about two weeks ago I was sitting at my computer in the garage and saw a large shadow pass through my screen, I turned around to discover Mr. Cooper sitting there on my front steps to the house. I think he discovered a mouse that goes from the garage to the small bushes in the front by the steps. This hawk was not the least bit afraid of me, I walked up to him and he didn't take flight until I almost could touch him.. He then went and sat on a tree that over hangs my neighbors chicken coop and just stared at me for a while. 

I feed a flock of 60+ pigeons and they have daily visits from cooper hawks.. The flock is getting pretty hawk smart and there are 50+ crows who warn them of Mr. Cooper in the area. He does get one once and awhile usually it's a young one, or a different colored pigeon out of the flock, the white ones , red and white, and all brown pigeons are gone now... I miss seeing them fly with the flock... I wish all the hawks would leave this area for good... but I know that isn't going to happen they seem to stay here year round now. 

Andi


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## Lin Hansen

Hi Luis,

Every fall, hawks, falcons, etc. in North America migrate south. Cape May, NJ (not all that far from Atlantic City) is well known as a place to view the migration.

Check out this link, and you'll see what I'm talking about.....

http://www.wbu.com/chipperwoods/photos/hawkmig.htm

Linda


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## TerriB

Thanks for the link, Linda. That is so cool!!!


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## LuisO

Yes, really cool info! I went out there around the same time again today. The falcones were not there, but hopefully they will stick around for a few more days until I get at least a photo or two.

Luis


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## Feather

LuisO said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I've been reading the threads and thought I'd might mention a really cool yet scary experiance I had Yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I dropped my aunt off at work. She works at the Harris Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City. It is a bayfront resort with a huge bridge that goes over the water to another small city. Well I went out there to check the fishermen out and when I looked into the air I could not believe my eyes.
> 
> Just 10-15 miles away from my loft are Peregrine Falcones! It was the very first time I ever saw one in the wild. My blood was pumping with excitment and horror. These birds are not afraid. I hope to catch them on video and uploading the videos to YouTube so that everyone can watch.
> 
> I couldn't believe seeing them hunt and dive 100+ miles right in front of my eyes at SEAGULLS! I cant wait to get photos up!
> 
> O, should I worry any? LOL
> 
> Luis


I see you share my Awe over the Peregrine. They are fasinating! The only thing is that when I have seen them in action, they have been diving at my pigeons. Luis, you described a feeling that I get, but never could find the right words.

The Peregrines come through my area twice a year. Nov., Dec.. and spring time are dangerous for my pigeons. Did you notice how many different shapes that the Peregrine can change into? 

Linda,

Thank you for the information. Maybe I will find my large stranger yet.


----------



## LuisO

Hi Linda,

I finally went out again this morning and caught a few video shots of the one of the birds sitting under the bridge and doing a little flying. I also have a few still images that I will try and post. Could they still be raising babies at this time of year?

Luis


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Cooper Hawks like others...still an issue.*

This thread has been read by many, and perhaps some new readers would like to read the posts and see the pictures. Far as I know, Mr. Cooper will be an issue for a long time to come. So I am going to bring it up again.


----------



## windyflat

Three things that have helped us avoid coopers here in upstate NY
#1... road training in the morning and loft flying the evening.. I figure that by loft flying late in the evening (6-7 pm) the coppers have already had a meal and so far it's served us well. Our birds get the bulk of their ration in the AM so they trap well on return from a toss
#2... A very aggressive marsh harrier has laid claim to our back yard. He's very fond of the creek in our back yard and the muskrats that dwell on it's bank. Any hawk that flies thru our yard is usually run off as soon as it's in sight. The marsh hawk made his presence known a few years back on our 2'nd or 3'rd YB race of the year. I had birds coming in from the south when all of sudden a cooper screams past my loft at full speed in the direction of my YB's circling to land then right on the coopers tail was this big gray hawk. The cooper never stopped to make a pass at my YB's the marsh hawk ran him clear out of site. I thought my heart would stop!! Funny thing is this marsh hawk could care less about my pigeons. He does not give them a second look.
#3... hundreds of crows that nest in the swamp 1/2 mile behind our house. If the marsh hawk in not on patrol these guys are and as many of you already know they hate hawks!!!. I put out stale bread and any pigeon eggs i don't want for my crows. God love um!!!


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## Birdmom4ever

Sounds like you have good natural Cooper hawk control at your house!


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## Guest

sure do wish those theories worked for me here as the crows only bother the redtails and the coopers are so sneaky they are barely even seen by the crows when they are around  Even your evening flying isnt a garentee because I do fly at 6:00pm every nite and still have attacks on my birds from those crafty coopers on a regular basis....problem is I am surrounded by woods with tall trees and where there are woods there are things that wanna eat your birds  guess I need to get me a marsh hawk now hehe


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## richardtheman

You know, I do the same thing. I only fly around 6 or 7 pm. My birds always fly free! They don't stay out too late since it soon gets dark and I do not have to spend hours watching them. However, the last time I let them fly, I had a big surprise. I saw a hawk which frighten my adult hen who was taking a break from sitting on her eggs. She took off and never came back until the next morning. However, I saw the weirdest thing, the hawking was not trying to attack my birds, but it was flying away, as I saw a little crow chasing it down and making noise! The hawk was afraid and was flying away from the Crow. On any given day, I see like hundreds of doves in my back yard or the neighbor, so I doubt any hawks are around. I did see one a year ago before I had my pigeons hanging around on a light pole however.


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## ohiogsp

Check out what I got about 100 yards from my loft in the trees. It is a baby redtailed hawk. I have not had one hawk problem this year. It is great. The parents raised this bird all summer and now they are gone but the baby still remains he screems all day long it seems like. The coopers are no where to be found. I think they will not come here when a bigger hawk has claimed it as their teritory. When the parents were still keeping a eye on the baby my birds would fly right by him sometimes and he would screem really loud. Here would come mom and dad, one time they accually chased my birds for just a few seconds and then turned away. I think they were just letting them know they were too close to baby. I have had no attacks or problems this year and hope this baby stays around.


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## flitsnowzoom

Very cool! So you have your own little police force!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

LokotaLoft said:


> ... Even your evening flying isnt a garentee because I do fly at 6:00pm every nite and still have attacks on my birds from those crafty coopers on a regular basis....



Lokota Loft,

By releasing your birds every evening at 6:00 PM....you are ringing a dinner bell...you have trained the Cooper's to show up at 6PM....you should vary the time ! Otherwise they will simple show up at their regular dinner time !


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## windyflat

I have'nt lost a bird at the loft to a hawk since i started flying YB's in the evening. Ringing the dinner bell or not it works for me
Tom


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## SmithFamilyLoft

windyflat said:


> I have'nt lost a bird at the loft to a hawk since i started flying YB's in the evening. Ringing the dinner bell or not it works for me
> Tom


 Maybe 6PM at your loft....is the safest for your location.....but I don't think that exactly 6PM (which time zone by the way) is exactly the secret time....I think the feeding pattern of his local Cooper population which patrols this particlar local territory....is the key for this particular loft, at this exact spot. 
The Cooper(s) are hitting him at 6PM....perhaps they have picked up on the routine of this feeding site ? Quite possible that he could let them out at 10:00 AM and not be bothered.....the Cooper(s) may just show up at 6PM like clock work...and may continue to do for some time...before the lack of a reward tells them it is fruitless, and they search elsewhere....well....that's one of my new theory's and I am sticking with it...


----------



## Guest

just so you know I have tried morning flights too and thats even worse for me with this cooper hawk ..sometimes I start to think she come when she hear me whistle for the birds to come in ,sounds a lil out there but who really knows for sure ..I do vary the times in the evnings when I fly them but it depends on when I get home mostly ,but this cooper doesnt seem to have a set schedule for dinner or breakfast just seems to being flying through all the time its maddening lol Im thinking of just using the shaker can from now on and not whistling


----------



## ohiogsp

Hawks will learn a whistle means your birds are out. They are very smart.


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## mr squeaks

ohiogsp said:


> Hawks will learn a whistle means your birds are out. They are very smart.


In that case, would shaking a can help??? Seems as tho no matter what is tried, a smart hawk will figure it out...sooner or later... 

Shi


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## lawman

Hello All,

I know I stated this previously on this line but I think it needs re-telling.

My brother and I both fly pigeons in So. Cal. our area is inundated with coopers. We had a lot of problems with them, one even went all the way into my brother’s loft and killed several birds before it could be caught and was relocated. 

This continued until we took our birds to an avian vet who specialized in racing homers. When he first observed our birds he wanted to know why we were even at his office. He could see nothing wrong. Samples of the birds were taken at our request and three sub clinical ailments were found. Even though the birds looked and acted like no problem existed, the problem was there, even the vet was surprised. We used medicine provided by the vet, it cost a fraction of what we had been spending on medicine. 

Within three weeks the birds were better than ever and guess what no more hawk problems. *Its my opinion that hawks are like any other predator, they smell the sickness and go after the easy kill,* even when we ourselves cant see it. 

Anyone who is having hawk problems need to first make sure they have their birds tested by a qualified avian vet. Follow the course of medication you are given to the letter and see if your hawk problems don’t disappear. *I know my brother’s loft as well as my own, have not been bothered by Mr. Cooper since we did this. *

You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by getting your birds tested!

Lawman


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## Margarret

Lawman,

What tests do you request when you take your birds to the vet? I've seen five separate Avian vets over the past few years and am disappointed with all of them. The last one I saw for a 4 week old squeaker that had developed problems shrugged and asked me what I wanted him to do. This after he hadn't examined the bird beyond weighing him. I had taken a poop sample. When I said the parent birds had stopped feeding he said "some times they know best". It was obvious he didn't want to try to treat the bird.

I don't expect miracles from vets. I do expect reasonable knowledge about birds other than parrots. One didn't know canker when he saw it. Treated it with antibiotics and the bird nearly died before I got help for it. This was my first experience with canker.

Sorry for the rant but I get really frustrated at times. I too live in So. Calif. Perhaps a list of vets in the broader So. Cal. area area who are pigeon knowledgeable would be useful on this list. It sure would for me. Are you or any one else willing to share the names of some vets you think are good with pigeons?

Margarret


----------



## re lee

lawman said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I know I stated this previously on this line but I think it needs re-telling.
> 
> My brother and I both fly pigeons in So. Cal. our area is inundated with coopers. We had a lot of problems with them, one even went all the way into my brother’s loft and killed several birds before it could be caught and was relocated.
> 
> This continued until we took our birds to an avian vet who specialized in racing homers. When he first observed our birds he wanted to know why we were even at his office. He could see nothing wrong. Samples of the birds were taken at our request and three sub clinical ailments were found. Even though the birds looked and acted like no problem existed, the problem was there, even the vet was surprised. We used medicine provided by the vet, it cost a fraction of what we had been spending on medicine.
> 
> Within three weeks the birds were better than ever and guess what no more hawk problems. *Its my opinion that hawks are like any other predator, they smell the sickness and go after the easy kill,* even when we ourselves cant see it.
> 
> Anyone who is having hawk problems need to first make sure they have their birds tested by a qualified avian vet. Follow the course of medication you are given to the letter and see if your hawk problems don’t disappear. *I know my brother’s loft as well as my own, have not been bothered by Mr. Cooper since we did this. *
> 
> You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by getting your birds tested!
> 
> Lawman


 I really do not think meds reduce a cooper problem. Now perhaps the coopers moved on some or something more explainable. Hawks hunt for there food. vulture hunt for dead food. Maybe be your birds being healthyer they are also more aware. Birds have to use there evasive instinct to out smart the hawk. Any way glad you have had less problems for now. Around here coopers show up around 1st to mid Oct, and stay until about mid to the end of March. Between April and september Not very much hawk problems at all.


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## TAWhatley

*Some Avian Vets In Southern California*



Margarret said:


> Sorry for the rant but I get really frustrated at times. I too live in So. Calif. Perhaps a list of vets in the broader So. Cal. area area who are pigeon knowledgeable would be useful on this list. It sure would for me. Are you or any one else willing to share the names of some vets you think are good with pigeons?
> 
> Margarret


There are a number who are/would be very good with pigeons. Unfortunately, you would need to be independently wealthy in order to afford any of them. 

Here's a few names .. Dr. Larry Nemetz, Dr. Bruce Levine, Dr. Scott Weldy, Dr. Walter Rosskopf, Dr. Hannis Stoddard. I'm sure there are others, but these are ones that I personally know of. One of those listed just charged a friend of mine close to $5,000.00 to treat a 15 year old park duck .. completely outrageous and very close to unethical to charge that kind of money to treat a rescued feral bird with a couple of relatively simple procedures. I don't even want to think what would be charged to treat a Black Palm or Hyacinth parrot .. the mind boggles ..  

Avian vets can also be located here: http://www.aav.org/vet-lookup/

Terry


----------



## Margarret

Thanks Terry,

I'll add them to my list. 

Margarret


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## TAWhatley

Margarret said:


> Thanks Terry,
> 
> I'll add them to my list.
> 
> Margarret



Margaret,

Susan's (our mutual rehabber friend) vets are very good with birds too .. obviously .. since she uses them for all her birds that need vet care .. they would be more reasonable than any of the specialists that I listed. They are Orange Villa Veterinary Clinic. My own vet is pretty darned good himself but is not a certified avian vet .. he's Dr. Sam Lee at Plaza Pet Hospital here in Lake Forest.

Terry


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## lawman

No good health will not cure all hawk problems, however with that said I can walk out my back yard on any given day and see coopers in the area. Sometime I even see the occassional red tail and I believe young eagles. On occasion the Coopers will still case my birds but I've not ever seen them successful. And yes I do release my birds even with Mr. Cooper and the other Hawks out in the area. 

The only vet. that is currently missing from the below list is DR. Shetrone, unfortunately he just moved from Southern California to Hawaii. He said before he left that he planned on setting back up his web site but so far it seems he has not done so. While I understand his desire to move to such a beautiful state as Hawaii he will be sorely missed. 

Dr. Shetrone learned his love of pigeon flying from his father and he told me that his love of pigeons specifically is why he chose to become an Avian Veterinarian. He was the Vet. that I referred too. 

I personally live in the lnland Empire area here in Southern California and I am also looking to find someone closer than Eldorado Hills whom I trust to care for my birds. Any suggestions?

The following information is from the AU and I would recommend any of the following vet’s

“Many of our members request veterinarian tips and information to assist with proper care and healthy loft management for the birds. We hope this is another helpful service to members to enhance the hobby and sport of racing Homing Pigeons. Avian Veterinarians”

I printed the entire list since I am sure others want a reliable vet. to take there birds to as well. 

*Lawman*

PS. heres the list....

*California*
Richard T. Marshall, DVM
2056 Brook Mar Drive
Eldorado Hills, CA 95762
--------
Director, Research Laboratory Services
Sutter Institute for Medical Research
5151 F Street Sacramento, CA 95819-3295
Phone 916-733-1785
Fax 916-733-1032
[email protected]
--------------
Niklos Weber DVM DABVP
Whispering Pines Pet Clinic
14632 Skyway
Magalia, CA 95954
530-873-1136
www.whisperingpinespc.com

*Florida*
S.L. Sattler-Augustin, D.V.M.
Bayonet Point Animal Clinic
11823 Oak Trail Way
Port Richey, FL 34668-1038
Phone 727-863-2435
Fax 727-869-1778

*Illinois*
Gary Whitebread, DVM
Mt. Carroll Veterinary Clinic
140 W. Commercial
Mt. Carroll, IL 61053
Phone 815-244-2382
-----------
Dr. Kevin A. Zollars, DVM
Tri-County Veterinary Service
4391 Ely
Earlville, IL 60518
815-246-9545


*Kentucky*
Thomas B. Angel, Jr., DVM
Angel Animal Hospital
7640 Burlington Pike
Florence, KY 41042
Phone 859-371-4929
Fax 859-371-5929


*New York*
Les Scherr, DVM
Hopewell Animal Hospital
2611 Rte 52
Hopewell Junction, NY 12533
Phone 845-221-7387
--------------
Frank A. Scandaglia, DVM
943 Manor Rd.
Staten Island, NY 10314
718-370-9472
-------------
Simon Lorberg, RPh, FACVP, DHPh
Member of ( American College of Veterinary Pharacist )
Member of ( Professional Compounding Center of America )
Liberty Drugs
Veterinary Compounding Pharmacy
109-19 Liberty Ave.
Richmond Hill, NY, 11419
Phone - 877-733-5533
Fax - 718-843-9622
Email - [email protected]


*Oklahoma*
Dr. Steve Weir
Catoosa Small Animal Hospital Inc.
1901 N. Hwy 66, P.O. Box 1559
Catoosa, OK 74015
918-266-4090 
Texas
David Landers, DVM
Brookhaven Pet Hospital
http://www.brookhavenpet.com 
14412 Marsh Ln
Addison, TX 75001
(972) 241-7730

*Wisconsin*
James H. Noble, DVM Retired
E 8711 River Rd.
Clintonville, WI 54929
Phone 715-823-3398


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Hello All,
> 
> ..... *Its my opinion that hawks are like any other predator, they smell the sickness and go after the easy kill,* even when we ourselves cant see it.
> 
> Anyone who is having hawk problems need to first make sure they have their birds tested by a qualified avian vet. Follow the course of medication you are given to the letter and see if your hawk problems don’t disappear. *I know my brother’s loft as well as my own, have not been bothered by Mr. Cooper since we did this. *
> 
> 
> Lawman



Well LawMan,

That is an interesting theory....that Cooper Hawks will not attempt to take a healthy pigeon...only ones with some "sub clinical ailments"...what evidence would you have to support this theory other then after your brother treated his birds...and you saw no Coopers for awhile ? And what list of "sub clinical ailments" do you think are most likely to draw the Coopers in ? 

I don't know what the correct name is for such assumptions of cause and effect, but I am reminded of the woman who thought she could make it rain, because everytime she put the laundry out on the wash line, it would rain. 

If your theory were true...then all a fancier would have to do is give his birds the correct medication...and presto....no more Cooper Hawk attacks....since presumably they would then be chasing down only sick ferals and sick robins.
If true...this would be a revolutionary discovery !  

The only problem I would see in trying to accomblish a totally "sub clinical" free bird or animal, is I only think that such a condition could only be achieved for very short periods of time, if at all. Perhaps the real experts on this subject can come forth and offer an opinion on the subject, but I think that most pigeons, even after a period of treatment, are going to possess some microscopic level of things such as canker, and still be in excellent health. 

I don't think in that regard that your theory will hold water, but perhaps you could interest some University to conduct such research, in the mean time, there are worse things then having our readers take all their pigeons to a vet for testing and treatment, however the last time I discussed such a possibility with the Vet, she wanted $25 per bird x's 200+ or a whole bunch of money. The two birds I actually know I lost to a Cooper in the last five years, just does not seem to justify the expense, especially if I would have to do this every month just to insure a totally germ free population of pigeons with zero "sub clinical ailments", so in otherwards...the theory if true...would also most likely be impractical.


----------



## lawman

Hi Warren,

*Well again we will have to agree to disagree, as my grandfather always said you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.*

And what I said in my last post was, "No good health will not cure all hawk problems, however with that said I can walk out my back yard on any given day and see coopers in the area. Sometime I even see the occassional red tail and I believe young eagles. On occasion the Coopers will still chase my birds but I've not ever seen them successful. And yes I do release my birds even with Mr. Cooper and the other Hawks out in the area." 

Warren I live in So. California, we have mild temp's pretty much year round, with the exeption of Aug and Sept. when the heat turns up. So we see Hawks year round not just during certain times of the year as in other parts of the country.

I don't need imperical data from a university to know that a healthy racing pigeon can outfly Mr. Cooper. I can use my own eyes, watch Mr. Cooper, as he chases one of my young birds and watch that young bird leave Mr. Cooper in the dust and know that all my birds were acounted for at the end of the day......... Mr. Cooper might get lucky and take an occasional youngbird off of a loft, but Mr. Cooper will in deed have a hard time of it catching any healthy racing pigeon once they have been in the air and are lofted. 

And as for any disease Sub clinical or otherwise that might have passed through my loft. it won't help you in yours since the conditions of your loft will be different from mine......... just as the conditions of every other loft will be different......... *I say don't guess because your neighbor has XYZ in his loft........ get your birds tested and treat them for what is in your loft*............ in the long run you will be better off for it and you won't waist time and money treating them for something they don't even have.

Lawman


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## Margarret

Lawman,

Thank you so much for the list of vets. 

Margarret


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Hi Warren,
> 
> *Well again we will have to agree to disagree, as my grandfather always said you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.*
> 
> ....I don't need imperical data from a university to know that a healthy racing pigeon can outfly Mr. Cooper. I can use my own eyes, watch Mr. Cooper, as he chases one of my young birds and watch that young bird leave Mr. Cooper in the dust and know that all my birds were acounted for at the end of the day......... Mr. Cooper might get lucky and take an occasional youngbird off of a loft, but Mr. Cooper will in deed have a hard time of it catching any healthy racing pigeon once they have been in the air and are lofted.
> .......
> 
> ...... *I say don't guess because your neighbor has XYZ in his loft........ get your birds tested and treat them for what is in your loft*............ in the long run you will be better off for it and you won't waist time and money treating them for something they don't even have.
> 
> Lawman


 Mr. Lawman, 

My hat is off to you.....I find that there is more we agree upon then disagree. Thank you for providing your input and don't be put off if I should question an idea......it makes for much more interesting reading.

Don't be too put off if I seem to question your posts....my intention is to invoke thought and intelligent dialog....just be as a Professor once said to me......be prepared to offer creditable evidence to support your claim. Try to keep our spirited dialog in that thought process. Maybe together we can all learn from each other. 


 

Warren


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## re lee

It sound like the cooper not being able to get a bird in flight while loft flying Is that the bird is 1 conditioned, 2 in good health, 3 more alert with its natural instinct. Now far as vet check on a per bird it would be very high.sendind stool samples in for a check for average loft health is much cheaper and can be done 1 time yearly or 2 times. Good management ventilation, exersise for condition, feed and healthy practices you see less desease. Check a college that trains vets. They often will do samples at a fare cost. And remember in the race the hawk can chase a bird many a mile. birds panic get lost , evade or get caught. This is different then the loft flying. And the owner really never new the hawk took the bird in a race just the bird never made it back. Around here red tail hawks really never bother the birds much at all. Coopers during the hawk season oct through march is the problem time. The old kite hawk is a welcome bird when it returns some how they keep the cooper chased away and the cooper moves on. Hawks are here to stay stronger then in the past. Pigeons are food in the sky or on the loft. you will lose a bird or 2 to the hawk if you know it or not.


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## Guest

the problem is your birds do have to come down sometime and these coopers just get smarter and smarter all the time with their ambush tactics . I do believe thou that lofts out in the open fair much better then the ones that have trees all around such as mine in which the art of sneak attacks can come at anytime ..I must admit the presence of the coopers makes your bird far more weary in the long run but that is little help when you have young birds just starting out off the loft .. here the coopers do let up in the summertime but they are never that far off that they dont come for a regular visit every now an then ..


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## lawman

Hello guys and gals,

For starters your right Re lee that a bird that is 1 conditioned, 2 in good health, 3 more alert with its natural instinct, has a much better chance of survival both at home and on the race course.

Although it could happen, I've personnely never seen a Cooper hawk chase anything farther than a couple hundred yards before it breaks off the attack and goes after something else. 

Now out on the race course we have no way of knowing if the bird was caught in the air or if it went down for water and got caught by a fox or some other predator. Or if it did as I have personely seen happen and was flying nap of the earth as it crossed a freeway nearer to your home and splatted on some big semi (no joke, it was and ugly sight)....... Or, well the possibilities are endless out on the race course. 

I do believe though that just as the hawks get smarter and trickier in the tactics. Our pigeons adapt to the ever present threat, if they are occasionaly flown at the time the hawks are out and learn to adapt to them. Otherwise when the birds are out on the race course or have Mr. Cooper suddenly come from out of the tree line and attack the birds will panic. In the case of the birds out on a race they may go miles out of their way before they make the corrections and head back for home. Course if they just kick in the after burners and head for home all the faster, that could be a good thing too  

Anyway just food for thought,

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My purpose in opening this new thread is to invite your comments who how you might be dealing with this magnificent predator.
> 
> I had a young bird escape from the loft the other day, and within minutes, my resident Cooper claimed his first victim for 2005. I am hearing of a lot of fanciers who are now keeping their birds secure in the loft till as late as June.
> 
> This is a radical departure from years past, when the Cooper was not as common. I also have heard that some fanciers are conducting business as usual, and that the YB's soon adapt to the Cooper, and even will have "Look Outs" which will warn the rest of the flock.
> 
> In talking with local fanciers, the "Cooper" is now the number #1 subject of discussion. If you have a sure fire way of discouraging the Cooper, in a humane way, without any harm to this protected bird, then please share your methods. I want to add this warning, that this site does not condone, any discussion which will harm any bird or animal, so please keep this in mind.


These questions keep coming up, so I thought perhaps some of the newer people might want to review this older thread !


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## Nosferatu09

I guess I'm rather glad Im not planning to keep a very large loft when I do get one, just a few pidgys... In my temper seeing a predator take something so dear from me without retailiation seems highly unlikely, as I love pigeons very very dearly and even other people's losses hurt me deeply -sad to say I guess, but oh well for know my only achille's heel are pigeons haha-... So I guess I'm rather turned off from having a large population of pigeons if some damn hawk is gonna keep trying to kill them or not, I'd rather have them in side with one another and let them be safe and happy as I guess Im not quite "interested" in racing and all that anyway..... as for the hawk haha I was thinking for some reason on whether they sell machines that shoot out tennis balls... that'd be practical... aim fire, deflect hawk

oh well... interesting topic, disheartening to hear of all the loses of poor pigeons and that picture with the torn apart pigeon was just heartwrenching... well good luck to all of you and keep your little birds safe, they're lovely and I love them all the same... heh


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## TheSnipes

Nosferatu09 said:


> I guess I'm rather glad Im not planning to keep a very large loft when I do get one, just a few pidgys... In my temper seeing a predator take something so dear from me without retailiation seems highly unlikely, as I love pigeons very very dearly and even other people's losses hurt me deeply -


Guess I'm with you Nosferatu; mine will just have to stay prisoners. They have a nice big pen. At least they are safe from most kinds of harm. That is an image (seeing one taken as prey) that would haunt me for life.


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## kalapati

*mr cooper is on vacation*

the crows are breeding with squeakers on their nests and i am not seeing mr cooper around.

2 weeks ago 4 of my YBs would just fly around for about 30 minutes and now as soon as i open the aviary they'll burst out to the sky and be out of sight for about an hour. this time of the year is the best to loft fly in my place i think. these YBs have develop a routine i guess because on regular days at 7 AM i would serve their breakfast before heading to work. and now everytime i release them at 6 AM they are always back by 7 AM inside their loft for their meal. and the same also in the late afternoon - they'll be gone at 4PM and be back 5 PM for their dinner.

how i wish the crows would just breed the whole year round.


kalapati
San Diego
http://myracingpigeons.mypets.ws:81/jview.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Still Dealing with Mister Cooper....*

*Additional threads have come up lately, as it appears Mister Cooper has not gone away, so I thought I would bring the subject back from the 2005 starting point, and to also add my lastest two cents which was posted on another thread.*


As a side note, this YB season, I attempted to avoid losses by hawk attacks early in 2008, by keeping my YB's locked down while they got "Strong on the Wing"....my personal experience with this was a much greater loss from fly offs, then I had experienced in actual hawk kills, (that I know of), from the previous five years. It is one of those things where you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. And there are "relative" degrees of "bad hawk problems", one fancier's "bad problem" will be seen by another fancier as very moderate, or not a problem at all. One thing for sure, for many areas of the country, Mister Cooper is going to eat some percentage of your birds, and that is simply a fact of life. 

One of the things I have taken notice to, is that Mister Cooper seems to prefer well fed "fat" YB's from a fanciers loft, then the young "skinny" feral's which live close by. I don't know what this might mean, but I am working on some theories in that regard. One of them is that certain lines within my pigeon's family tree, seem to have been better able to avoid Mister Cooper. These same lines also do quite well during racing events, and thus I have called them the "Blue Falcon" line....will take a number of more generations in order to determine if there is indeed a genetic link between avoiding Mister Cooper and racing ability, or if it has simply been dumb luck.
__________________


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## Guest

I would just like to add that if people think that just because their birds outfly mr cooper hawk today it doesnt mean they will tomorrow as well .. how many storys have we heard of mr cooper taking someones best bird ?? I think one to many to hold onto the theory that having hawk savy pigeons means that streak will last forever.. rest in peace all those that lie in the belly of the beast ..


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## kalapati

*The Differences Between the Two Devils of the Sky:*

*PEREGRINE FALCON*










Falco peregrinus 

Description:

The Peregrine Falcon is on the increase after an alarming decline in the 1950s and 1960s due to eggshell thinning pesticides. One of the world's fastest birds, this falcon can reach speeds close to 320 km-h in a downward dive (called a "stoop"). Both fast and agile, these birds can catch other birds in mid-air. Their prey ranges from sparrows to ducks, which may be why this bird is sometimes referred to as the "Duck Hawk".

The falcon was worshiped in the religion of ancient Egypt as Horus, god of the sun, the great falcon whose devine eyes were the sun and moon. A sign for "god" in hieroglyphics was a falcon on a perch. Like pharaohs, falcons were sometimes mummified. 


Appearance:

Slate-gray upperparts. Buff-white underparts, marked with fine black bars and spots. Black hood and wide black "mustaches". Short, dark, hooked beak with pale-yellow base. Underwings barred black and white. Wings are long and pointed and extend to tail tip when at rest. Yellow feet. Long, thin tail with gray and white bands. Arctic race is paler than Northwest race. Immature birds have a dark brown hood, mustaches, and upperparts. Some races have paler heads. Underparts are heavily streaked on immature. 15 to 21 inches in length. 


Habitat:

Coasts, marshes, canyons, cities. Primarily migrates along coasts. 


Nesting:

2-4 cream or buff eggs marked with reddish-brown spots. The eggs have a 29-32 day incubation period. Fledging occurs in 35-42 days. The nest is a poorly lined scrape on a cliff, building ledge, or abandoned bird's nest. Both adults help incubate the eggs. Sixty percent of the young will not survive due to their inexperience in flying and hunting. 


Observed Locations: San Diego Bay 









*COOPER'S HAWK*











Accipiter cooperii 

Description:

Like its smaller counterpart, the Sharp-shinned Hawk, this bird mainly preys on other birds, but also feeds on lizards, snakes, and small mammals. It can and will relentlessly pursue its prey, even through wooded regions. 


Appearance:

Blue-gray upperparts and crown. White neck and underparts. Rust-brown barring on lower chest and leg feathers. Short rounded wings. Long tail. Red eye. Yellow legs. Yellow bill with black tip. 14 to 20 inches in length. 


Habitat:

Deciduous forests, especially those with meadows and clearings. 


Nesting:

4-6 gray or blue-green eggs, laid at 2 day intervals, with a 32-36 day incubation period. Fledging occurs 27-34 days after hatching. The nest is a large mud mound lined with feathers and down. The nest is constructed around March-May and is usually found near a lake, pond, or marsh edge. 


Observed Locations:

Lake Murray, La Mesa 
FRNC, Point Loma 
Mission Trails Park, San Diego 
Kate Sessions Park, Pacific Beach 
Lindo Lake, Lakeside 








kalapati
San Diego
http://loftdekalapati.mypets.ws:81/Jview.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*He's Back.....*

There is such a thing as being in the wrong place at the wrong time....that is the case for this pigeon...whose fate is unknown, for a photographer, I think it was perfect timing. Anyway, I think you know what is in store for us in the month's ahead.


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## Guest

that pigeon looks to be a victum of a mugging as to where the redtail took full advantage of the situation


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## spirit wings

save that one for the people who do not think BOP are not in our cities.


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## Lovebirds

THAT'S THE BIGGEST DAMN HAWK I'VE EVER SEEN.........Thank God, they don't come that big around here, or at least I"VE never seen one that big. Holy Moly..............


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Lovebirds said:


> THAT'S THE BIGGEST DAMN HAWK I'VE EVER SEEN.........Thank God, they don't come that big around here, or at least I"VE never seen one that big. Holy Moly..............


Heck ! Over in these here parts...that one looks like a baby....my neighbor had a hawk fly in and carry off one of his cow's !! ............

PS. Course he make's home brew....and is known to sample it from time to time, so take that into consideration.


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## TAWhatley

*You Haven't Lived Until You've Seen One Of These ..*

I was at the local duck pond park a year or so ago when a Golden Eagle came soaring into the area. All the birds scattered like crazy, but the eagle still got an American Coot and took off with it in its talons. It went to the top of a huge pine tree and lost the Coot when it perched on the branch. I promptly retrieved the Coot and it recovered. I must say, however, that the way all the birds (ducks, geese, coots, pigeons, crows) spooked when this eagle came around was amazing. Even for me, it was amazing .. it was like having a bird the size of an airplane (relatively speaking) show up at the park .. just awesome.



> _The golden eagle is between 26-33 inches in height, the eagle has a wingspan of 78 inches (over 7 feet long) and weighs 3.2 to 6.4 kg._


This is the link to the article for the quote: Golden Eagle

Terry


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## Bluecheckard

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> There is such a thing as being in the wrong place at the wrong time....that is the case for this pigeon...whose fate is unknown, for a photographer, I think it was perfect timing. Anyway, I think you know what is in store for us in the month's ahead.




wow looks like the hawk that sometimes visit my birds in the morning. thank God this hawk is slow when ever it attacks my birds. it has scared me one time when it dive on the roof of my loft while I'm infront of the the loft waiting for the birds to come in. I thought A small plane was about to crash on me.


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## Crazy Pete

pop bottle rockets, I don't aim them at the bird just the noise in the air makes them leave. I live in a small town every body likes my birds so no body cares if i lite some off every now and then. I would never hurt a hawk, but they don't know that


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## TAWhatley

sesamestick said:


> What an awesome, regal creature. It must be mindboggling to actually handle such a magnificent bird, to care for it and heal it as our member Nabisho does in his rehab center.


Yes, you are so right! I've never handled a Golden Eagle, but I have been privileged to "handle" other protected species of birds that are predators .. Yes, I was wary of them, but we managed. I was also privileged at one time to have a Blue Footed Booby for a short time and then released it .. Go do the research .. amazing bird!

Terry


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## RodSD

I've seen an osprey perched on a light post in front of our house this winter. It was the first time I've seen it. It freaked me out initially until I searched info about it and that it mainly eats fish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OspreyNASA.jpg

I live near this school where they apparently made a nest before.
http://www.oceanoasis.org/fieldguide/pand-hal.html


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## TAWhatley

RodSD said:


> I've seen an osprey perched on a light post in front of our house this winter. It was the first time I've seen it. It freaked me out initially until I searched info about it and that it mainly eats fish.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OspreyNASA.jpg
> 
> I live near this school where they apparently made a nest before.
> http://www.oceanoasis.org/fieldguide/pand-hal.html


Whoa! Amazing bird!

Terry


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## spirit wings

I love amazing pictures like that.....I would love to beabale to take good photos, need a decent camera first, and Im just scratching my head not knowing what I should buy...so many to chose from.....beautiful birds!!!


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## kalapati08

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> There is such a thing as being in the wrong place at the wrong time....that is the case for this pigeon...whose fate is unknown, for a photographer, I think it was perfect timing. Anyway, I think you know what is in store for us in the month's ahead.


Nice but looks like photoshopped IMO. Where did you find the image?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

kalapati08 said:


> Nice but looks like photoshopped IMO. Where did you find the image?



Don't understand "photoshopped IMO".....it was contained in one of those spam emails with 20 other pictures with the caption "Wrong Place, Wrong Time"


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## Ed

photoshopped = the image has been edited with photoshop to change things
maybe to add or subtract something
like how models get photoshopped in they modeling pictures to sometimes look skinny and so on
imo = in my opinion


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## j_birds

StoN3d said:


> photoshopped = the image has been edited with photoshop to change things
> maybe to add or subtract something
> like how models get photoshopped in they modeling pictures to sometimes look skinny and so on
> imo = in my opinion


Photoshop isn't what maked me skinny


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## Guest

I really dont think that redtail was photoshoped at all they are really that huge all you need do is see one in person to know that fact  now as for those golden eagle pictures they are just awesomeeeeee ,truely a majestic bird to say the least with power to boot ,loves them eagles


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## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My purpose in opening this new thread is to invite your comments who how you might be dealing with this magnificent predator.
> 
> I had a young bird escape from the loft the other day, and within minutes, my resident Cooper claimed his first victim for 2005. I am hearing of a lot of fanciers who are now keeping their birds secure in the loft till as late as June.
> 
> This is a radical departure from years past, when the Cooper was not as common. I also have heard that some fanciers are conducting business as usual, and that the YB's soon adapt to the Cooper, and even will have "Look Outs" which will warn the rest of the flock.
> 
> In talking with local fanciers, the "Cooper" is now the number #1 subject of discussion. If you have a sure fire way of discouraging the Cooper, in a humane way, without any harm to this protected bird, then please share your methods. I want to add this warning, that this site does not condone, any discussion which will harm any bird or animal, so please keep this in mind.



This thread was started a while back, and if you thought you would like to see what past posts were written as possible "solutions". Draw your own conclusions.


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## Kal-El

Has anyone tried poisoning them? Using a sacrficial bird, perhaps a cull, and bait the hawks?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Kal-El said:


> Has anyone tried poisoning them? Using a sacrficial bird, perhaps a cull, and bait the hawks?


Such "Solutions" are a NO NO on this site.....you might think it out of frustration...but you can't discuss it or say it per the rules....


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## Lovebirds

Kal-El said:


> Has anyone tried poisoning them? Using a sacrficial bird, perhaps a cull, and bait the hawks?


That's sick...........


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## Kal-El

It was just a suggestion.


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## chiggerbait

There is a thread on the AC forum about painting the underside of the wing with livestock marking paint. Some experiment I think in Europe that has shown some promise. The flourescent marking seems to distract the BOP.

Chigger


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## Kal-El

I saw in a documentary where the fancier painted a white birds with eyes to deter the BOPs.


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## RodSD

Maybe I should paint my white birds with superman color. They (hawks) probably will not messed with a man in steel. Right?


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## Southwing

*Missing 20 yearlings*

Man today sucks 2 weeks before we are getting ready fly are yearling race i lost 20 birds. The really bad apart that is they don't come back tomorrow i will only have 5 birds to fly. This is my first year. I will be up waiting for them before the sun comes up. They only went out 50 miles clam maybe 5 mile winds, sunny about 45deg. The five that came home were all separated and long periods apart. So more than likely it had to be a hawk that scared them.


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## Kal-El

Southwing, not to play devil's advocate, but if you're retraining yearlings, and you lost 20 out of 25 birds, maybe you should re-evaluate the quality of those birds? Again, I don't mean any offense. I know I would do that if I was in your situation.


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## Southwing

All but 2 have come back, I hope the other two come before the rain gets here and then gets down in the 20s tonight. I believe i have very good birds I have trained this birds all summer 4-5 days a week. I just believe that the hawks are chasing them which caused them to separate. They have never come home one bird at a time. They Fly 40-50 miles twice a week and some on weekends. I had got most of my birds from the top flyer's in the club. We have old bird races from 300-700. So i believe in the birds that were given to me from club members.


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## Kal-El

That's good to hear. I hope you have an awesome year racing.


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## Jay3

Kal-El said:


> Has anyone tried poisoning them? Using a sacrficial bird, perhaps a cull, and bait the hawks?


Well that was a disgusting suggestion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## RodSD

Southwing,

I don't race, but do you think you are overtraining your birds a little bit? Maybe they are too tired and if there is a predator, it would probably be too hard for them escape. Just my opinion from a non-racing guy.


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## Guest

I deal with coopers everytime i let my birds out and its not when their flying that I have the problem but when they are landing ... I would rather have redtails hit my birds any day


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## g0ldenb0y55

I had 2 ferals that use to come by my loft during feeding time. I would give them food outside of the loft. Last week when I started building my new loft I saw a Cooper fly overhead and land on my neighbors fence! I was totally shocked! I've never seen one around my area before. I don't have anything but prisoner birds at the moment so my pigeons are safe but I was thinking maybe the Cooper somehow snatched the 2 ferals that used to hang around.....I miss the 2 little guys, I was really becoming attached to them. They would even get as close to my feet to eat without any hesitation. I hope I'm wrong about the Cooper snatching them up and that they just found another place to stop and eat at. If that's the case then I hope they come back by to visit again. As for the Cooper, I haven't seen it since and i hope i never do again because I plan on having some birds to train and loft fly this year.


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## Crazy Pete

Just a thought, if you've spent a lot of money on your birds and just have a couple hawks around. Would it not make sence to hire some one that is licensed to catch the bird. That breaks no laws, and nobody get in trouble. : )


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## karijo

You aren't allowed to trap or catch hawks, unless you've got government issued research permits and the rules around them are very strict and specific. 

I was supposed to intern at the Golden Gate Raptor Observatory and quickly decided against it after my first orientation when I learned they use live pigeons on strings as bait to draw the BOP in to be trapped. 

Not surprisingly I was incredibly offended and disturbed by the specism (_the act of placing higher moral or ethical value on one species over others_) going on there. Just because one bird is plentiful and not protected doesn't, in my mind, give them the right to use it as live bait. 

The poor pigeons are seriously tortured during the baiting process - they wear little leather suits and are out in the field with a string attached rigged up to this thing. The baiter jerks them up and slowly lets them flutter back to the ground. This is repeated with one pigeon every few minutes for an hour or something, then he is switched out for another pigeon and so on. The hawks aren't "supposed" to actually grab the pigeons, but they often do, and the injured pigeons are executed at that point by an observer. If the injury is very minor they will take the pigeon back to the loft to heal. But that is few and far between. The GGRO really upsets me, I don't think it's right. Imagine one of your most loved pidgies being jerked on a string every few minutes for a half hour, then being slammed by a huge hawk, barely surviving the horrifying ordeal only to have his neck snapped by an GGRO observer. I don't think one species should be put through that kind of torture just so another can be studied. They should find another way. Believe me I really let them have it before I walked out. It bugs me that even the animal rights groups don't care. I guess it's OK to torture pigeons, especially if it's in the name of research and conservation of the _oh-so-majestic _BOP.



I used to take in raptors for rescue/rehab when I lived in NY, now I won't.

I read somewhere once about people putting little red vests on their pigeons to deter hawks. I can't remember where. So Brooklyn's birdie diaper is red. Not that he ever wears it anymore. We got tired of the theatrics that ensued after putting it on him...


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## Grim

What I have heard of and yes this is borderline depending on how you look at it is... Create vests which their pigeons wear with velcro. Attached to these vests are several little nooses made of fishing line. Now the bird can fly fine and if a hawk catches it when it attempts to fly off the vest is released from the pressure off the bird and the hawk is left with it's feet in a tangle of fishing line left to starve.

The people who use this claim it is legal because they are protecting their birds, and that they are not actively seeking out the hawk to harm it (No guns fired, no traps).

Pretty sadistic huh?

As a side note.. NO I do not use this and don't recommend it.


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## Crazy Pete

What i saw was a live 2 level trap, pigeon on the bottem hawk in the middle no bird got hurt. The hawk got relocated, i didn't mean to use a pigeon and torture it.


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## karijo

Crazy Pete said:


> What i saw was a live 2 level trap, pigeon on the bottem hawk in the middle no bird got hurt. The hawk got relocated, i didn't mean to use a pigeon and torture it.


No no! I didn't think you meant that at all!!!



I was just recounting my experience with the GGRO!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

karijo said:


> You aren't allowed to trap or catch hawks, unless you've got government issued research permits and the rules around them are very strict and specific.
> 
> I was supposed to intern at the Golden Gate Raptor Observatory and quickly decided against it after my first orientation when I learned they use live pigeons on strings as bait to draw the BOP in to be trapped.
> 
> Not surprisingly I was incredibly offended and disturbed by the specism (_the act of placing higher moral or ethical value on one species over others_) going on there. Just because one bird is plentiful and not protected doesn't, in my mind, give them the right to use it as live bait.......
> 
> ...


 Welcome to the real world in which we live. Placing a higher value on raptors, is exactly the reason why laws were put into place to protect them.
I would not be surprized if they talked about you after you left...they must have thought you were some kind of wacko ! I mean the goverment didn't do anything to protect the passenger pigeon did they ?


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## karijo

As much as I loved being a Biology/Animal behavior major, I really hated the detachment and single-minded view most scientists and researchers take when it comes to every species other than the one(s) they are working with. 

It's funny, I have family in Australia and one of my cousins who had come to visit once was amazed when I told him that a rose breasted cockatoo (or "galah") I was rehabilitating was worth a few thousand dollars. He laughed and told me that the Galah is Australia's pigeon, and couldn't believe people actually payed _money_ for them.

It amazing how complacent we can become when something is abundant. We lose sight of it's beauty and no longer think it is special. 

Ah, the humble lowly pigeon.

I'm so glad there are people out there who appreciate them!!! (and even more glad that once in a while the pidgies manage to poop on some of the ones who don't!)


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## Jay3

karijo said:


> It amazing how complacent we can become when something is abundant. We lose sight of it's beauty and no longer think it is special.
> 
> Ah, the humble lowly pigeon.
> 
> I'm so glad there are people out there who appreciate them!!! (and even more glad that once in a while the pidgies manage to poop on some of the ones who don't!)



To that I can only say AMEN!


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## RodSD

I think there is no solution to this hawk problem. I now just cried after it got my bird today.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Breed A Faster Pigeon !*

When I started this thread four years ago, I was searching for some mechanical solution. I tried many of them, and as far as I am concerned, anything can work the 1st time, but later the Cooper's will figure out our little tricks. The main benefit of this thread, might have been simply to allow you to vent, and share your loss with other understanding readers. None of the solutions offered on these pages will work with any degree of certainly. If any of them did, it would now be known by all fanciers.

In my experience, the worst time, is when you are first trying to settle 4 week old YB's. The only advice I can offer, is to be outside with the birds at all times when they are outside the loft. I have been able to intervene in some attacks, and save the pigeon. Also, keeping your pigeons lean, and in good health helps. After the birds have been settled and have some good quality time on the wing, I rarely lose one to my resident Cooper. 

In a weird sort of way, "my" Mister Cooper has actually helped me later in the year, by keeping my birds alert, and airborne. Often those three hour loft exercise sessions were because of the "help" from Mister Cooper. The most dangerous times, is when they are first released into the air, or sitting on a loft. Very fast trapping...is again...one of the things which the Cooper helps me with. After a race or a training toss, the idea of sitting on the loft or on the house roof, is not something that happens a lot around here, when the ever present Cooper is around. 

And as I may have said before, as much as I might hate him at times....he has helped me to produce a better, faster, racing pigeon. Most if not all of my YB's have at some point, had to out fly or out maneuver a Falcon of some stripe. Those who were perhaps just a wee bit smarter, and faster, went on to finish their racing career and perhaps a place in the breeding loft. Those that did not possess perhaps an extra fast lighting reflex, or were ill, or out of shape, or whatever....just never made it. 

In conclusion, my "solution" has been to stand guard with the babies, and then in the end, it's out of my hand's and in the hand's of mother nature. It has been an evolutionary race, which has been going on for a very long time. Slow Cooper's won't make it, and certain pigeon's won't either. I am convinced, and it make's me feel better, that there is a genetic link to successful loft flying and avoiding the Cooper, and doing well in races. It's not really a "solution", but rather a way with dealing with the emotions when a bird is lost. So my long term solution, is to advance the racing genetics to such a degree, that your racing pigeons are rarely caught by your typical hawk. And since our goal is to breed a faster pigeon in the first place, these two goals would seem to go hand in hand. This will in turn, be the best long term solution, and when I lose a YB to a hawk, it will simply be another gentle reminder, that I have not quite succeeded yet.....


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## RodSD

Warren,

I do all those stuff and more. Coopers likes to get my birds during landing or take off. It tries to get them in the air as well, but usually unsuccessful. Settling is the scariest. A 4 weeks old baby is sitting duck. I definitely can intervene, but usually the pigeon is probably injured. Unfortunately the real "solution" is illegal and will not be condone. They are protected species as we already know.

We are basically trying to find an alternative "solution" which does not violate the Act. I don't mind getting hit as long as it is not frequent. When it is frequent, then I am suspicious.

Losing a bird still hurts especially I don't breed by the numbers. Because I ended up treating my birds as pets (ended up with emotional attachments), it hurts even more.

You know in biology they teach you that pigeons way of fighting extinction is to breed a lot of babies (prolific breeding). That is their evolutionary adaptation.


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## Bluecheckard

before I am always upset when a hawk shows up in my area and attacks my birds. but then I got tired of it and had realise why sometimes you have to loose some of your birds from a hawk attack. now I just leave my birds to mother nature. if a hawks kills one of the bird that means that bird is weak and don't belong to my loft. in short mr. hawk is naturaly culling the weak and keeping the healthy birds here in my area. I just don't do anything anymore to keep the hawk away from my birds. now I do things like what warren does when dealing with hawks. mr. hawk keep the birds fit and alert


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## Kal-El

I agree with Bluechekard. I used to be upset when a hawk showed up and attacked my birds. But I've learned that having hawks is just one of the things we cannot control. And I've also learned to use it to my advantage. Having hawks around helps keep my birds flying, and it forces the lazy ones to fly. If they [lazy ones] refuse, they'll soon become hawk food. 

The funny thing is, once all my birds are airborne, the hawks go away. Hawks are a problem for only a month or so. And the hawks somehow realize that once I stop having young birds, there aren't easy young birds to pick off, and they leave.


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## Jay3

Well you're lucky in that regard, if they move on. Some people have the hawks continuously.


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## Guest

I agree your lucky if they go away while your birds are flying but here the flying birds are what attracts them to begin with ...as many have already stated they arent as lucky as you and if you dont mind losing your birds by all means fly them ... I never have had a problem with my birds while they are in the air its when they are coming down thats when I lose them to the hawks .. I wouldnt mind being hit every once in a while while my birds are out but every day is a bit much  Mine have been in since mid december and I wont be letting them out til the end of march most likely


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## Guest

Cooper Hawks are a big problem for my son and I too, They kill as many pigeons as we can raise in a years time. My son called me at work one day to tell me that a hawk came in to the loft through the trap door and killed one of the birds while it was inside. Hawks are here year round here in Illinois, I see as many as three or four hawks at the same time. I no longer have wild pheasants around my home anymore either, I believe the hawks are the reason for this, because I have found picked clean carcasses lying around. No bird is safe from these predators, they kill any bird, for a meal. I believe something should be done about them, since they are protected by law, no human can bring harm to them and I no of no natural predator of them.


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## conditionfreak

I posted this on another thread and then read this page and thought I would post my writing here also. It fits along with the above.......................

I have been letting my young birds out only for about 4 or 5 minutes as I water and feed them. I call them in by whistling and they come quick. However, yesterday, as I was doing this, a hawk got my last white young bird (I have some white old birds) and took it in flight, about ten feet above my head.

I was so mad. The hawk took the bird into a tree and I ran into the garage and grabbed a long poled fish net and was going to get my birdf back. At the same time, the crows (who were around when this happened) were going crazy flying around and making their "caw" sounds, but they did not go near the hawk.

As I ran towards the tree where the hawk had my bird, it left with my bird and went about a hundred yards away. I followed into the heavy woods and when I got close, it left again and went further. I gave up because now it was on someone elses property.

I checked the internet concerning getting permission to "control" hawk problems legally and it seems that it can not be done except under very very limited circumstances, and taking pigeons ain't one of them.

I check the trees before I let my birds out. I only have them out for under five minutes and they trap fast. I have dogs in the yard and I am in the yard, when my birds are out. WTH is a guy supposed to do?

I went online and found several people discussing these hawk vs pigeon problems and almost everyone thinks that it is something that has to be tolerated, at best. Some indicated that the hawks take the weak or stupid, and thus actually do us racers a "favor" by eliminating those we should have culled anyway. Some actually state that pigeons can be genetically equipped as "hawk savvy" and a person could incorporate that (and it will incorporate itself naturally through these losses) in breeding programs. Some who sell pigeons actually make part of their sales pitch that their particular birds are genetically hawk savvy.

I have racers, but I had intentions of starting a white dove release program this coming summer or fall. But now, I just don't see me being able to do that as the whites just are too enticing apparently. My colored racers have been okay so far (I lost one in a year), but the whites just don't make it. It would be foolish to keep the whites locked up all year, as that would not work for a dove release business.

I am going to try and rent an F-16 from the Air Force.

Just to scare the hawks, of course 

Seriously though. I may give up on the white birds and just try to keep my racers in tip top shape and let the hawks give it their best shot and let my birds "learn". Sadly, some will surely get taken.

What would I do if coyotes were taking my miniature horses?...hmmm.....Would I try and breed coyote savvy miniature horses? No. Don't be silly.

I would either get something that coyotes would stay away from, such as herding dogs, or burrows or llama's I guess.

So.....Anyone know what hawks stay away from? And the answer ain't crows, I assure you. 

Is there anything that eats hawks and doesn't also eat pigeons?

Just thinking out loud


----------



## RodSD

A baby bird that you are trying to resettle is a sitting duck. I don't know whether hawks getting them is luck, but young birds are extremely vulnerable. They can't out fly a hawk yet. 

Conditionfreak, 

I know how you felt like chasing that hawk trying to retrieve your bird. When my bird got hit it went to my neighbor's yard (see my thread on general discussion). I have to drive my car around the neighbors to get to the yard to get my bird. I was too late! Felt very helpless! It is like looking at a drowning kid and you can't rescue him/her.


----------



## Jay3

No bird is born Hawk Savvy. They learn. And that's BS that they take the stupid ones. If you have a white or black or anything that stands out from the rest, that is usually what they will go after. Because of the way they hunt. They focus in on one bird, then go after it. This is more easily done when the bird stands out from the rest. If others believe that it is always the slow or stupid bird that they go after, then they are just trying to make themselves feel better about the fact that their bird just got grabbed.


----------



## conditionfreak

A couple of links that you might like to read. the first one is what can happen if you capture or kill hawks. I am amazed at how many, one pigeon club is accused of capturing/killing. I am also amazed that any agency would take the measures of actually infiltrating (with an under-cover operative) a pigeon club.

The second link is someone who believes that hawks inherit genetically, "hawk savvY-ness". Go down to about half way through the page to get to the pertinent part about hawks. There are many others that believe this. Personally, I do not subscribed that this is likely, nor, as has been suggested on this forum, that hawks can "smell" a pigeon with bad health. I do of course, believe that a pigeon can learn to be more hawk savvy, but still, the hawk that is not good at what it does, dies. So, I also do not believe others when they say that they have specific birds or strains that consistently "out do" hawks, at the predator/prey game. I believe it is just like war. Sometimes bad soldiers live and sometimes very good soldiers die. Skill helps, but it is also a lot of luck. Lot Texas Hold'em Poker  There are many that say the hawks got their "best" bird/s. Many many say this.

http://www.fws.gov/news/newsreleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=BE935795-974F-4768-DE4A89664B1CFC29

http://members.tripod.com/~phillby/index-6d.html


----------



## Guest

Jay3 said:


> No bird is born Hawk Savvy. They learn. And that's BS that they take the stupid ones. If you have a white or black or anything that stands out from the rest, that is usually what they will go after. Because of the way they hunt. They focus in on one bird, then go after it. This is more easily done when the bird stands out from the rest. If others believe that it is always the slow or stupid bird that they go after, then they are just trying to make themselves feel better about the fact that their bird just got grabbed.


 you would be surprised with what birds are born with and the instincts are their way before they are even confronted by them or taught...why do you think they puff up and attack your hand as babys when you aproach them ,its their instinct to stay alive thats not something they are taught ..how many young birds do you ever see that just sit on the top of a loft when a big bird flys over(something all flyers hate when settling birds) ..thats a built in reaction not something taught too .. now if you ment they arent as good at evading birds of prey then yes you are right they do need to build that part up with practice but they are born preditor savy to the point of knowing what they are way before one ever decends on them .The Nature of their built in instincts are an amazing thing just as are their ability to find their way home


----------



## Guest

conditionfreak said:


> A couple of links that you might like to read. the first one is what can happen if you capture or kill hawks. I am amazed at how many, one pigeon club is accused of capturing/killing. I am also amazed that any agency would take the measures of actually infiltrating (with an under-cover operative) a pigeon club.
> 
> The second link is someone who believes that hawks inherit genetically, "hawk savvY-ness". Go down to about half way through the page to get to the pertinent part about hawks. There are many others that believe this. Personally, I do not subscribed that this is likely, nor, as has been suggested on this forum, that hawks can "smell" a pigeon with bad health. I do of course, believe that a pigeon can learn to be more hawk savvy, but still, the hawk that is not good at what it does, dies. So, I also do not believe others when they say that they have specific birds or strains that consistently "out do" hawks, at the predator/prey game. I believe it is just like war. Sometimes bad soldiers live and sometimes very good soldiers die. Skill helps, but it is also a lot of luck. Lot Texas Hold'em Poker  There are many that say the hawks got their "best" bird/s. Many many say this.
> 
> http://www.fws.gov/news/newsreleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=BE935795-974F-4768-DE4A89664B1CFC29
> 
> http://members.tripod.com/~phillby/index-6d.html


 this is sooooo true as any pigeon can have a bad day no matter how many times it has out flown a hawk before ..thinking your birds are invincible is just a gamble with your birds lives..some people live with it while others morn the losses


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## kalapati

*Interesting Raptor Documentary at PBS channel*

i've seen this documentary earlier and i just want to share it here:


http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/schedule/


Saturday, October 17 — 05:00am
0011 - KPBS 

Raptor Force

Raptors such as the peregrine falcon, golden eagle and red-tailed hawk are spotlighted. Included: a miniature camera captures the world as birds see it; and chronicles a golden eagle's pursuit of a jackrabbit. Also: raptors' influence on airplane design.

duration: 60 min 

details: [cc] [stereo] [ed taping rights: 1 year] 
genre: Parents Picks 


kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## Alamo

In an article in the Racing Pigeon Digest (RPD).... One of Art Hees`s best hen`s was picked out of the air within 3 seconds...She was flying around the loft, having some enjoyment flying alone...Well,that`s the end of the story....And the Hen !!
How good of a racing pigeon,or how bad of one is of no importance....Luck does play a part in the outcome....As for me,March is the worst month of the year...The old birds,in love and not paying attention to anything other then themselves while outside the loft,are easy targets....I have lost some nice pigeons in March/April of every year that I have had birds.....A double combine winner was one of them...1st combine 2022 birds as a YB....1st Combine 500 miles as a yearling...Score a big hit for a Redtail hawk !!! Alamo


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## czarkos

go to Foy's and look at the Bird B Gone balloon http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/2173.html

or the Bird Diverter Eyes http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/2172.html


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## SmithFamilyLoft

czarkos said:


> go to Foy's and look at the Bird B Gone balloon http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/2173.html
> 
> or the Bird Diverter Eyes http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/2172.html



Yep ! And I can tell you that such things do not work. If they did, then dealing with the Cooper would be a pretty simple task. All one would have to do is buy a number of these gadgets and move them around. No such luck.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Every season, threads pop up asking what to do about hawks....here you can read everything and everything that has ever been suggested. I can tell you, none of them work. People will suggest every off the wall thing you can imagine. Today, a Cooper grabbed one of my YB's right in front of my face, just a couple feet away, we both sort of surprised each other, which was just what was needed for the YB to get free.....my pigeon has a hole in his side, but he will recover. So, I just thought I would bump this up to the front again, so the same posts and threads don't have to be started all over again.


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## TerriB

Good thing you were there, Warren!! What a lesson for a young bird!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

TerriB said:


> Good thing you were there, Warren!! What a lesson for a young bird!


The whole thing only took seconds....it took a second to even react and all I could do was yell HEY !!! ...and the Cooper dropped the bird or otherwise the bird pulled free. The pigeon flew under the loft, and the Cooper took off. I have saved pigeons like this before, just being out in the yard can make a difference. It takes some small amount of time for the Cooper to do his dirty deed, and if you have a wild man in the yard...well in some cases like the one in this post, it can make a difference. I have no doubt, had I been inside, the young pigeon would have been killed. 

I shall have to watch this YB now. Two times in the last number of years, a pigeon which survived a hawk attack, when on to win some races for me. We shall see !


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## RodSD

Predators are real fast. Check this video out:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-_RHRAzUHM&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Guest

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The whole thing only took seconds....it took a second to even react and all I could do was yell HEY !!! ...and the Cooper dropped the bird or otherwise the bird pulled free. The pigeon flew under the loft, and the Cooper took off. I have saved pigeons like this before, just being out in the yard can make a difference. It takes some small amount of time for the Cooper to do his dirty deed, and if you have a wild man in the yard...well in some cases like the one in this post, it can make a difference. I have no doubt, had I been inside, the young pigeon would have been killed.
> 
> I shall have to watch this YB now. Two times in the last number of years, a pigeon which survived a hawk attack, when on to win some races for me. We shall see !


 sometimes saving the bird after the attack is not enuf , I have been thru a few times when even after the hawk dropped a pigeon it wasnt enuf cuz they plunged their talons in so deep causing internal injuries where the pigeon died seconds later .. but its always better to be out their at least to attempt a rescue .. sad thing is it only takes a few seconds to lose a bird to a preditor even if you are there to try and avoid it


----------



## idoveyou

http://www.palemale.com/
here is a hawk living in New York City
Despite their wicked ways with Pigeons, you have to respect this gorgeous bird!


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

idoveyou said:


> http://www.palemale.com/
> here is a hawk living in New York City
> Despite their wicked ways with Pigeons, you have to respect this gorgeous bird!


I guess I respect a Coopers Hawk, as much as I do a Mountain Lion killing some little old lady's pet dog. Or a racoon coming into a back yard and killing all of the families pet chickens. Or a fox sneaking in and killing the kids pet rabbits. Unfortunately, when one of these things grab one of my babies off the loft, and then tears it apart, I'm not exactly respecting it, or admiring it's beauty. I look at it for what it is, an intruder onto my property, looking to kill my stock. He will get the same "respect" as any rancher, "respects" a wolf or other varmint, entering his back yard and killing his family members. That's all I will say on the subject.


----------



## First To Hatch

I just thought I would post this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPkN1tMhmm4&feature=rec-r2-2r-8-HM I thought it was interesting, but sad still.


----------



## conditionfreak

Well. I may have just lost my first bird of the year (maybe two) to a hawk. I had my young birds on the landing board and was in the back yard "babysitting" them. It was a beautiful day but had rained all day yesterday and the yard was a little muddy. I was doing some chores while "babysiting", and got my hands muddy and dirty, so I went into the kitchen to wash them. My kitchen sink has a window in back of it that allows me to watch my birds from there.

I was in the house maybe 7 to 10 seconds and had just covered my hands with soap and water and was getting ready to rinse them when I saw a hawk land on the ground with one of my pigeons held under it.

I said "sh-t" and ran out the back door, with my hands still all soapy. My wife also was in the kitchen and she was wondering what in the heck was wrong. As soon as I exited the back door, the hawk let go of my pigeon and flew away. My pigeon made a bee line to underneath the coop, which was maybe twenty five feet away from where the hawk had it on the ground.

All 15 of my young birds had scattered to the four winds. As I said earlier, these birds have never actualy been in the air and were now flying their butts off in all directions. I was concerned of course for the probably injured bird, but going through my mind were the other fourteen young birds flying for the first time and how many I would never see again.

I will say this. They were flying with speed and like they had been flying for years. The thing is, they were not circling and not flocking. Just flying in panic in all directions, with some disappearing quickly and some not dissappearing so quickly. My wife came out and I went to get the pigeon under the coop and found it to have a large hole in its crop. Food was coming out of its crop, and the bird was bleeding quite a bit. We treated it as best we could and put it in a cage. We'll see what tomorrow brings. I don't take pigeons to a Vet normally, and of course when things like this happen, it is always on the weekend or in the evening.

Anyway, my scattered birds slowly started finding their way back to the loft and I am only out one. I am hoping the hawk that let go of my now injured bird, didn't set his sights on another and it is eaten. Hoping it is just got lost and maybe it will find its way back

One thing I did that may surprise some, is that I immediately went and let my old birds out, to help "pull in" my young birds. It seemed to work. My old birds did not want to leave their loft and I had to force them out. But they are all accounted for also. They routed for awhile and I think that they felt safer on the wing, rather than not flying. I think they understand they have a better chance of dealing with a predator when in the air than when on their feet.

Now the question is one that we all face every year in the beginning of young bird season. I still have to settle my birds and train them. I can not skip the settling part. When they are still young and inexperienced, yet when they are like that, they are easy pickins for the hawks.

I wish I would not have went in to wash my hands. May have made a difference. I won't leave them again. But it is hard when you have so much to do other than just sit and watch the skies and birds for hours.

I made a hawk trap last year, but have never baited it. After I made it, I decided that I only had two options if I caught one. Kill it or take it far away and hope it didn't return. I have no confidence taking it away would solve the matter and I know I could not kill it. So, my trap just sits there on top of a picnic table in my back yard. My wife laughs about the time and effort I put into making it.


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## Flapdoodle

*I know I am way out in left field here...*

"If you can't beat them, join them"

I know everyone has a little different situation. I live out in the sticks, For a few years I have had a pair of I think black shouldered kites nest right by the house. 



















They are small, eat mice, and don't bother the pigeons at all. The funny thing is anytime another hawk of any size, big red tail, and or our pigeons favorite the coopers came around these little birds would chase them off. I know it sounds crazy but it has happened. They seemed to be really protective of their nest. I did not see them last year and it seems like they are a little late this year, but what about attracting other birds of prey?

Providing nest boxes and see what happens... Again I know it is out in left field, but something to think about… I guess a coopers might use the nest...



http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1602/eb1602.html


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## 1981

Flapdoodle said:


> "If you can't beat them, join them"
> 
> I know everyone has a little different situation. I live out in the sticks, For a few years I have had a pair of I think black shouldered kites nest right by the house.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are small, eat mice, and don't bother the pigeons at all. The funny thing is anytime another hawk of any size, big red tail, and or our pigeons favorite the coopers came around these little birds would chase them off. I know it sounds crazy but it has happened. They seemed to be really protective of their nest. I did not see them last year and it seems like they are a little late this year, but what about attracting other birds of prey?
> 
> Providing nest boxes and see what happens... Again I know it is out in left field, but something to think about… I guess a coopers might use the nest...
> 
> 
> 
> http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1602/eb1602.html



Thats a great idea, if only black shouldered kites are around the area where I live. It would save some of my ybs life.


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## Remarc Lofts

I will trade my goshawks for all your cooper hawks  The goshawks where I live catch band tailed pigeons and so are well schooled at catching my racers. They can fly straight at a flock no matter how high the flock is and get one every time. You have to be a lucky pigeon in my loft to make it through a season.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Coopers Rein Supreme in the Sky !!!*

Every year, every season, the topic of Cooper hawks or other such birds of prey come up. That and a whole list of supposed solutions. I have come to the conclusion, that there is no solution which can be discussed on this forum.

But, we can give moral support, when a favorite bird is killed. Which happened again to me within the last two weeks. And it always seems to happen to the ones we happen to say...."I like that one"...which is like a kiss of death. So NEVER, I mean NEVER, ever....say I really like this or that one, if it is allowed to loft fly. It is the kiss of death. 

So, in conclusion, if you are going to loft fly pigeons, and you are in an area where Coopers hunt, sooner or later, they will dine on your pigeons. If you live in certain areas, Mother Nature will cull your flock for you if you allow them to loft fly at certain times of year. I had two Coopers (a pair?) making their attacks, and all my yelling and screaming and throwing things, did not deter them in the least. 

My only option was to secure them inside my lofts, for the rest of the year. And that is the only "solution" we can speak of here to the "problem", but if you have not seen this thread before, go ahead and read the hundreds of posts, and see for yourself.


----------



## Action

*Goshawk*



Remarc Lofts said:


> I will trade my goshawks for all your cooper hawks  The goshawks where I live catch band tailed pigeons and so are well schooled at catching my racers. They can fly straight at a flock no matter how high the flock is and get one every time. You have to be a lucky pigeon in my loft to make it through a season.


If you have goshawks I feel for you. They are just bad [email protected]@
Jack


----------



## RodSD

I agree with you Warren, but locking them up for quite sometime, from my experience, and releasing them makes them weak and even more vulnerable when a hawk comes. Pray that when that time comes, the pigeon had at least a week already outside flying to get in form before any encounter with BOPs. If not, it will be an easy chase.

And I agree with that belief that your favorites get taken. It is a pigeon curse I'll tell you!


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## cubanlofts

Cooper on the picture is a mini, faster and smarter than the regular red tail cooper, I fly at different hours to dissorient the coopers, other than that, i keep a 360 degrees mirror in the edge of the roof, so when he sees his reflection he gets scare, i dont fly too many young birds at the same time, maybe 2 or 3 at the most, but because of hawk season i dont release ybs till 3 months old this time of the year, but life will go on, pigeons should be hawk smart, they have to learn their enemies, i fly 2 ferals first, them, if i dont see a hawk i release the flock, my 2 ferals fly here, and they r very hawk smart, i trust my 2 ferals with my life, they r 5 years old and they ve being flying here for over 4 years, also hawks they know they cant keep up with pigeons, so they attack mainly on the landing, is critical they dont land on ther roof, giving yb extra time to get older has saved many of mines, i havent losta single bird this year, so i can tell u is my method is working good. so dont release at the same time everyday, no more than 2 0r 3 yb release at the same time, and keep an open eye for the landing time. so u can yell at the hawk, other than that, Thats pretty much all I do, I trap yb faster that the others cause i underfeed ybs in the first month till they get stronger on their wings


----------



## cubanlofts

conditionfreak said:


> Well. I may have just lost my first bird of the year (maybe two) to a hawk. I had my young birds on the landing board and was in the back yard "babysitting" them. It was a beautiful day but had rained all day yesterday and the yard was a little muddy. I was doing some chores while "babysiting", and got my hands muddy and dirty, so I went into the kitchen to wash them. My kitchen sink has a window in back of it that allows me to watch my birds from there.
> 
> I was in the house maybe 7 to 10 seconds and had just covered my hands with soap and water and was getting ready to rinse them when I saw a hawk land on the ground with one of my pigeons held under it.
> 
> I said "sh-t" and ran out the back door, with my hands still all soapy. My wife also was in the kitchen and she was wondering what in the heck was wrong. As soon as I exited the back door, the hawk let go of my pigeon and flew away. My pigeon made a bee line to underneath the coop, which was maybe twenty five feet away from where the hawk had it on the ground.
> 
> All 15 of my young birds had scattered to the four winds. As I said earlier, these birds have never actualy been in the air and were now flying their butts off in all directions. I was concerned of course for the probably injured bird, but going through my mind were the other fourteen young birds flying for the first time and how many I would never see again.
> 
> I will say this. They were flying with speed and like they had been flying for years. The thing is, they were not circling and not flocking. Just flying in panic in all directions, with some disappearing quickly and some not dissappearing so quickly. My wife came out and I went to get the pigeon under the coop and found it to have a large hole in its crop. Food was coming out of its crop, and the bird was bleeding quite a bit. We treated it as best we could and put it in a cage. We'll see what tomorrow brings. I don't take pigeons to a Vet normally, and of course when things like this happen, it is always on the weekend or in the evening.
> 
> Anyway, my scattered birds slowly started finding their way back to the loft and I am only out one. I am hoping the hawk that let go of my now injured bird, didn't set his sights on another and it is eaten. Hoping it is just got lost and maybe it will find its way back
> 
> One thing I did that may surprise some, is that I immediately went and let my old birds out, to help "pull in" my young birds. It seemed to work. My old birds did not want to leave their loft and I had to force them out. But they are all accounted for also. They routed for awhile and I think that they felt safer on the wing, rather than not flying. I think they understand they have a better chance of dealing with a predator when in the air than when on their feet.
> 
> Now the question is one that we all face every year in the beginning of young bird season. I still have to settle my birds and train them. I can not skip the settling part. When they are still young and inexperienced, yet when they are like that, they are easy pickins for the hawks.
> 
> I wish I would not have went in to wash my hands. May have made a difference. I won't leave them again. But it is hard when you have so much to do other than just sit and watch the skies and birds for hours.
> 
> I made a hawk trap last year, but have never baited it. After I made it, I decided that I only had two options if I caught one. Kill it or take it far away and hope it didn't return. I have no confidence taking it away would solve the matter and I know I could not kill it. So, my trap just sits there on top of a picnic table in my back yard. My wife laughs about the time and effort I put into making it.


all predators are federally protected, watch what u write in an open forum, u kill one, and u posted and u certainly will go to jail, and trust me, u will go to a federal prison, so dont post your options, even to trap 1, u have to have a permit, so be careful with your words, feds do follow all our postings, a friendly advice goes a long way.


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## kalapati

cubanlofts said:


> all predators are federally protected, watch what u write in an open forum, u kill one, and u posted and u certainly will go to jail, and trust me, u will go to a federal prison, so dont post your options, even to trap 1, u have to have a permit, so be careful with your words, feds do follow all our postings, a friendly advice goes a long way.



"federally protected" maybe because coopers and other predators act like the IRS of nature...LOL. they collect a percentage of our YBs production every breeding season. 

after 2 days of aggressive attacks by my resident cooper the one good thing i noticed is my birds trap faster now. i have no choice this morning but to let my birds out again for weekends are the only best time for me to exercise my birds in preparation for our next club OB race. and while they were coming out of the loft the cooper attempted a hit again. my birds were on the wings for more than an hour which is a good exercise and when they finally sense all is clear they landed and trap quickly. i think they learned that hanging around outside after loft flying is an invitation for mr cooper to hit them again.


kalapati
San Diego


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## cubanlofts

thats for sure, I release this morning, and 15 took off, like 4 min later 3 or 4 trap strait from the air to inside the loft, i said, mmmmmmmm, thers a hawk around here, a min lateri saw him, and when the flock saw him they al went pretty high and come back an hour later, i still have 2 yb flying somewhere, hope they comeback, but u know, hawks do more than scare ur birds, it help s them to be on their toes, is natural selection, u know, they have to eat 2, i will scare them with a loud noise or something, nevertheless they are still magnificent birds, very majestic.


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## cubanlofts

Action said:


> If you have goshawks I feel for you. They are just bad [email protected]@
> Jack


where r u at in planet earth? lol


----------



## JaxRacingLofts

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And it always seems to happen to the ones we happen to say...."I like that one"...which is like a kiss of death. So NEVER, I mean NEVER, ever....say I really like this or that one, if it is allowed to loft fly. It is the kiss of death.


I heard this before and just thought it was a superstition..I learned tonight its wisdom from experience. 
I was feeding my birds and let my commons out to fly and they were cleaning up some spilled seed from my breeders.
They were not even 4 feet away from me and over my left shoulder a cooper hawk nailed one of my commons on the ground. I yelled "Holy Shi#t" and went to throw my feed can at it and it released my bird and flew off. 

The common was nest mate to my first born pigeon. She is doing fine...a little startled and shaken up. The father of these birds flew off and hasn't returned yet. I think I gave these birds the "kiss of death" by naming them and spoiling them.
Its crazy but seems true that something as simple as liking a particular pigeon is what the hawks will target.


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## Kastle Loft

Here's what I saw out my back window last week. I think I have a nesting pair, this one being the big female. She is the same one that busted up some racers trying to trap (they were on the landing board and my wife and I were only a few feet away trying to call them in). She really wanted in there bad! She was on the loft, bouncing off the loft and even went under it trying to get in.


----------



## yvannava

he really wants to get in. he probably just wants to talk to them. lol. today two hawks scared my birds and i thought they got eaten since i let 3 out. i looked around and saw two more hawks and now there were 4 and i was like i dont think they will make it out. but 2 hours later my birds came back to my house and i put them in i was amazed that they actually made it back. i think they might have took off downtown since there is alot of pigeons over there.


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## bbcdon

Hopefully he won't learn how to turn the door knob and walk in.


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## becege

*Cooper Hawk*

My experience with coopers is to fly your pigeons about two hours before sundown. Hawks have found their daily meal by then and are not out hunting. Since I have beeb flying in the afternoon the last two years, I have had only one attack and have not lost a bird.


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## yvannava

thats probably what i am going to start doing cause these hawks are just crazy.


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## bbcdon

Where I live we have the red tail hawks. They are very large!!! They are about half the size of an eagle.


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## RodSD

becege,
That doesn't work at my place. In fact I get hit the most at those times. And I tried flying at different times. If you have hawk infested place the hawk has no time schedule. In fact during those times as well I can see a falcon coming home from its hunting place. And, yes, hawk will learn to adapt with your schedule. They will be there when you release them. Varying flight time release will work temporarily, but they will adapt again. In fact I encountered another hawk today always 2-3 times a week. It gets very frustrating because these hawks have immunity. You can't harm them in any way. You can only scare them. But the good news is that the Migratory Act also protects some dove species.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

dstephenson said:


> Here's what I saw out my back window last week. I think I have a nesting pair, this one being the big female. She is the same one that busted up some racers trying to trap (they were on the landing board and my wife and I were only a few feet away trying to call them in). She really wanted in there bad! She was on the loft, bouncing off the loft and even went under it trying to get in.


Great pictures ! Unfortnantely, all to familar looking !


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## yvannava

there he is GET HIM. grab your pitchforks and torches...


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## spirit wings

wow, you must have a nice camera..


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## deadeye531

Man that was a long thread to read. I have only had a problem with one Coopers so far but what helps me to not have them is Im a falconer and have my Redtail that I hunt with sitting next to my pigeon loft. The pigeons know she wont bother her and will even sit on her pen to hang out and if they are scared in any way they go there also. One day I had her inside and thats when I had the coopers come down to check out the loft. Ended up traping her though. *NOTE- do not try to trap them, you will get in as much trouble as if you killed it.* Typically across the country falconers are traping new birds Sept-Jan. If you will do a simple search for Falconry clubs in your area and let them know you have pigeons and coopers around there are several that will come to trap them for you in order to get a new hawk to hunt with. Helps you both out.


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## pattersonk2002

*Hawk pictures*

I do have to say, Dstephenson, those are some very beautiful pictures. I have been working in the yard all day cutting wood and putting things up for winter. My amusement for the day was watching different groups of crows chasing the hawks away from my lofts. I do feed the crows and they nest here every year so they do help, I still think after watching this happen all day I am no way going to let my birds out. My wife said she seen a cooper hanging on one of the aviaries and all the birds were in the loft where they will stay until the end of March. >Kevin


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## Guest

dstephenson said:


> Here's what I saw out my back window last week. I think I have a nesting pair, this one being the big female. She is the same one that busted up some racers trying to trap (they were on the landing board and my wife and I were only a few feet away trying to call them in). She really wanted in there bad! She was on the loft, bouncing off the loft and even went under it trying to get in.


 I have this same problem at my loft every year and its funny you can always tell when a cooper has been at the loft even long after it has flown off for a spell and it seems like a ghost town, you dont hear a sound in or around the loft even on the inside ... they are so brazin here and movement seems to drive them even when you are standing right there in front of them ... had to lock down my birds even earlier this year as it has gotten that bad but redtails have never a problem for me .. crows are of no help as the coopers seem to fly right under the radar of them since they fly mostly thru the trees undetected.


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## blongboy

becege said:


> My experience with coopers is to fly your pigeons about two hours before sundown. Hawks have found their daily meal by then and are not out hunting. Since I have beeb flying in the afternoon the last two years, I have had only one attack and have not lost a bird.


i tried that before ... doesn't work for me .... hawk at my place will stay even when it dark.


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## cubanlofts

Have u notice, hawks they r getting more and more balls every year, they r not afraid of humans, they fly so close to us if they want to eat a pigeon that is not even funny, even there s 1000 s o fferals in my town, they know somehow, thta my pigeons are les hawks smarts than a feral, but I havent lost a single bird these year, almost lost a white yb, but hawk lost her in the air, her name s lucky now, she is the only bird with a name in the loft, lololol


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## doveone52

Cuban lofts, that is a perfect name!
Those are great pictures. She's determined to get her a pigeon!


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## bicklebok

Good thread for such a horrible problem we all face. I live in the south(Alabama) and I have a coopers problem from about August until March. I have learned some things over the years dealing with them that I want to share. Keep in mind, this is only my personal experience in my geographical area. Im no expert on hawks.

Coopers dont seem to be as bad on warmer sunny days. If its cloudy cool weather, I wont let my birds out. Even during the winter, we do get some sunny days. Thats when I will let my birds out. Never on a cloudy day in the winter. They are very hard to see when flying with a gray sky at their back, and I think they know that. And have you ever noticed when they are on a sneak attack, when they get close they will glide and not flap their wings so as to not draw attention? Very smart!

Someone mentioned releasing their birds later in the day. That has worked for me as far as playing the odds. I have had far more attacks releasing my birds in the morning.

i dont let my birds out every day during cooper season. Around every other day under ideal conditions, and not at the same time.

I put out cracked corn and throw out unwanted pigeon eggs in the yard to attract crows. Crows and hawks are enemies!

i carry my birds down the road more in the winter to give them exercise. When they get home they can just trap rather than loft flying and luring coopers over for a meal.

if a cooper catches a bird near you, usually hollering and screaming and running toward him will cause him to turn loose of the bird.

They are bold birds! After missing a bird in flight I have seen them just wait in a tree nearby for my birds to trap. Thats common. They know the birds have to land sometime.

I have had several coopers get in my loft over the years. My mistake for not blocking the trap. one of the toughest things I have had to do is release coopers out of my loft after they ate one of my birds in their own home. You can bet I scared the crap out of them good before I released them! (Unharmed)

I have learned to respect the coopers hawk. To me, they are the F-16 fighter jet of the sky. Long tail feathers to change direction quickly, smaller, fast, and will chase a bird on the fly and not just a dive bomb ambush. They are built to catch their favorite food; birds.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents. Great 5 year thread!


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## conditionfreak

It amazes me that I have a pair of Coopers that live on my property AND a pair of Red Tails that live on my property.

I have never seen them go at each other, but have seen them circling the area at the same time.

I thought they would be natural enemies (protecting their little corner of the earth and its supply of prey). But they are coexisting well and have been for over six years now. I know where the Red Tails nest but I do not know where the Coopers nest. Yet.

The crows do harass them often, but not always. Sometimes the crows leave (or are gone already) when the hawks are circling. I have a lot of crows here.

My birds don't have a problem with the hawks when they are circling. They out run them well. It is when the Coopers are hiding in a nearby tree and hit the landing board or roof suddenly, that they sometimes get a pigeon. The sneak attack or ambush is when they are successful here. They don't seem to care much about me being near either. They also do not fear my dogs either, which are always around my lofts.

I "babysit" my birds when they are out and several times the hawks have hit with me just feet away. I have rescued all but one bird doing this. One just got carried away and it is the most helpless feeling, watching one of your little buddies get taken off into the forest. I tried tracking it but lost it. Too many fences.


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## Shadybug Lofts

They had a pallor roller demo at the show i was at Sunday and a coopers hawk came out of no where and tried several times to take a bird with the guys following a couple feet behind them as there rolling. He got within a foot of grabbing the bird. Those hawks are brave.


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## spirit wings

Shadybug Lofts said:


> They had a pallor roller demo at the show i was at Sunday and a coopers hawk came out of no where and tried several times to take a bird with the guys following a couple feet behind them as there rolling. He got within a foot of grabbing the bird. Those hawks are brave.


That is crazy!!!!


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## pegionsboy

I know this post has been going on for a while and thought I might add a few things which I think are helpful. First of, in Ontario, we get hawks starting November and they disappear around March so its not a year long thing. I think as a fancier you need to decide what you want to do for this period. Either take your pigeons in for the entire winter and do not let them out. Or do what I do. I fly my pigeons regularly so they stay fit and wing strong. They have a better chance to beat the hawk this way. The day I let them out, I do not feed them in the morning and let them out around 11:00 a.m. which is a safe time as the hawks have already had their breakfast by then. The pigeons go out at 11 and come back before 2-3 p.m. because they are hungry, right before the hawk starts to hunt again. I also do not let more than 5 pigeons out at a time because its easier for the hawks to target a big flock. My tipplers beat the hawk easy but I have witnessed even my rollers beat the hawks. I am also experimenting with painting (just a water paint which fanciers do to recognize their birds in the air) the inside feathers of my white pigeons with a yellow and green bar to see if it throws of the hawk's attention.


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## Alamo

I remember reading a story about a pigeon guy with a hawk problem,as most of us all do....He put out fake Geese around his loft area...Everyday,he moved them to different spots....And it seemed to work...The story I think was in the RPD magazine.....Alamo


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## Mader631

Falconers use a (Bal-Chatri) trap to humainly trap Hawks....... This can be made by hand very cheap & easy. Not saying to try this, but Just putting it out there.......LOL.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My purpose in opening this new thread is to invite your comments who how you might be dealing with this magnificent predator.
> 
> I had a young bird escape from the loft the other day, and within minutes, my resident Cooper claimed his first victim for 2005. I am hearing of a lot of fanciers who are now keeping their birds secure in the loft till as late as June.
> 
> This is a radical departure from years past, when the Cooper was not as common. I also have heard that some fanciers are conducting business as usual, and that the YB's soon adapt to the Cooper, and even will have "Look Outs" which will warn the rest of the flock.
> 
> In talking with local fanciers, the "Cooper" is now the number #1 subject of discussion. If you have a sure fire way of discouraging the Cooper, in a humane way, without any harm to this protected bird, then please share your methods. I want to add this warning, that this site does not condone, any discussion which will harm any bird or animal, so please keep this in mind.


Before someone starts a new thread, I thought I would move this one up. Good Ole Mister Cooper was sitting outside my avairy the other morning. He was watching my weaning YB's develope, and he was just licking his beak waiting for the next day or two...so he can take a bite !!


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## mmelloss

were can i get a couple of kestrels i would love to have some to get ride of the 4 different hawks i see around my neighborhood 2 coopers one redtail and a small chicken hawk


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## SmithFamilyLoft

mmelloss said:


> were can i get a couple of kestrels i would love to have some to get ride of the 4 different hawks i see around my neighborhood 2 coopers one redtail and a small chicken hawk


 http://www.raptorsforsale.com/sale/american-kestrels-for-sale.asp 

Not sure how they will help you, but if you have the time, money and energy to go through the permit process. Knock yourself out.


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## Alamo

If I had flat land/grass about 200 feet long by 30 or 40 feet wide,I would get a remote controlled plane,or maybe a helicopter would be better..When my BOP buddy is sitting in the tree,I could chase him away....I think I will look into the hellicopter angle...I have seen small ones in the malls,being flown even by old ladies...I want sonething bigger though !! Alamo


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## Granny Smith

Alamo said:


> If I had flat land/grass about 200 feet long by 30 or 40 feet wide,I would get a remote controlled plane,or maybe a helicopter would be better..When my BOP buddy is sitting in the tree,I could chase him away....I think I will look into the hellicopter angle...I have seen small ones in the malls,being flown even by old ladies...I want sonething bigger though !! Alamo


A miniature Black-hawk with a few sidewinder missiles?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Alamo said:


> If I had flat land/grass about 200 feet long by 30 or 40 feet wide,I would get a remote controlled plane,or maybe a helicopter would be better..When my BOP buddy is sitting in the tree,*I could chase him away....I think I will look into the hellicopter angle...I have seen small ones in the malls,being flown even by old ladies...I want sonething bigger though !! *Alamo


 And I never finished law school, but I'm thinking you would be in violation of Federal law, punishable by a $10,000 fine, and six months in a Federal prison.

Section 9 of the ESA, as amended, prohibits any taking of listed species of fish or wildlife
without special exemption. “Take” under the ESA means to “harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot,
wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect, or to attempt to engage in any such conduct.” * Harass is
further defined by the Service to include an intentional or negligent act or omission which creates
the likelihood of injury to wildlife by annoying it to such an extent as to significantly disrupt
normal behavioral patterns which include, but are not limited to, breeding, feeding, or sheltering.*
Harm is further defined by the Service to include an act which actually kills or injures wildlife. 
Such act may include significant habitat modification or degradation where it actually kills or
injures wildlife by significantly impairing essential behavioral patterns, including breeding,
feeding, or sheltering (50 CFR 17.3).


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## Alamo

Federal Law for just chasing him OFF of my TREES !!! There is a LAW that you can`t HARM/KILL them....But just chasing them away !!!! You got to be kidding me!!!Maybe I`ll will just get fireworks,whick are legal,and shoot them when I want...It there happens to be a BOP....SOB in the TREE,too BAD !!!! Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Alamo said:


> Federal Law for just chasing him OFF of my TREES !!! There is a LAW that you can`t HARM/KILL them....But just chasing them away !!!! You got to be kidding me!!!Maybe I`ll will just get fireworks,whick are legal,and shoot them when I want...It there happens to be a BOP....SOB in the TREE,too BAD !!!! Alamo


 Hey I didn't write the law ! 

Harass is
further defined by the Service to include an intentional or negligent act or omission which creates
the likelihood of injury to wildlife by annoying it to* such an extent as to significantly disrupt
normal behavioral patterns which include, but are not limited to, breeding, feeding, or sheltering.*

Now if your rockets or airplanes end up "disrupting" the normal behavorial pattern...such as when it is trying to eat a pigeon, then you are guilty, even if it was unintentional. At any rate, I figure at least $20,000 in legal fees just to tell your side of the story !!


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## Freebird loft

gbhman said:


> My father always said back in Poland they used to keep a couple perliczki (guinea fowl) around to protect from hawks. I would have them too but I can't keep them where I live But I guess if you're in a more rural area it's an option.


The hawks must be either bigger or hungrier in my area. I had 11 grown guineas and witnessed the hawk kill three of them in a 5 day period, I had to lock them up in the chicken coop to protect them.


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## sdymacz

SmithFamilyLoft is right, You cant even be in the same area where the bird nests You have to leave the area, area size around the nest for that particular bird is defined by the fish and game department, so the bird has a restraining order on You and if it happens to be in Your back yard it has to be left alone unless is attacking You to protect the nest area then You call fish and game they come and relocate the birds. And in the 40s government used to promote lethal ways to control populations of hawks because they needed the pigeons for the war


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Freebird loft said:


> The hawks must be either bigger or hungrier in my area. I had 11 grown guineas and witnessed the hawk kill three of them in a 5 day period, I had to lock them up in the chicken coop to protect them.


 Maybe the Hawk didn't get the memo that he was not supposed to eat the guineas !!!


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## Alamo

I don`t know anybody here that likes hawks....Most folks have feeders out for the many different kinds of birds located here..I have some Goldfinches here by my loft...These little birds are just plain awsome looking...There are many other "little" birds with all kinds of colors....People love sitting on their back porch watching them come to the feeder...When I mention a hawk just tried to get one of my pigeons,they all say I`m glad he didn`t get it... *Let him starve !!!..... *Alamo


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## almondman

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Maybe the Hawk didn't get the memo that he was not supposed to eat the guineas !!!



Totally off thread subject - 
How long have you been a moderator? Have I just not been noticing the title or is this something recent?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

almondman said:


> Totally off thread subject -
> How long have you been a moderator? Have I just not been noticing the title or is this something recent?


 I'm thinking you simply havn't noticed since I have been a moderator for the last 8 years.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

You don't see this everyday ! 
This unlikely "couple" apparently entered into the loft, and then realizing they were sort of "trapped" together, decided to talk out their differences. Turns out that hawks are not all bad, they simply like the taste of fat pigeons which have been fed and cared for very well.


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## almondman

Warren - WOW, my bad! I must have been so taken by the content of your posts that I just never noticed. It's H.ll to get old and feeble minded/blind, etc.


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## almondman

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> You don't see this everyday !
> This unlikely "couple" apparently entered into the loft, and then realizing they were sort of "trapped" together, decided to talk out their differences. Turns out that hawks are not all bad, they simply like the taste of fat pigeons which have been fed and cared for very well.


Too bad that Syria, Iran, Afganistan, and several other countries couldn't learn by example.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

almondman said:


> Too bad that Syria, Iran, Afganistan, and several other countries couldn't learn by example.


Allow me to adjust my moderator hat and say we want to avoid references like this, because it is a slippery slope placed under the heading of "politics". Forum members who may reside in one of these places may have quite a different perspective. And before you know it, we will be so off topic and it invites additional political commentary and debates. Let us just say, there are moments in nature, where birds and animals could teach all of us humans something. After all, the most dangerous predator we face every day in our own lives is man. Had more people murdered in my small city of about 70,000 this year so far, from male human drug dealers, then we have had hawk attacks or injuries. 

At times, even this subject matter, the hawk. Has turned us on each other from time to time in the history of this particular thread. It can be a very emotional issue. The reality I have learned, is that there are simply something's about my pigeons, as in real life, that I must learn to accept the fact that there are just some things I have no control over. As it is said, one must learn to let go. 

The way to Deal with the Cooper Hawk, from years now of experience and discussion, is simply to accept the reality that if you own pigeons which are left out to fly, in most areas with a healthy eco system, you will lose some of your birds to this bird of prey. I accept that just as I know I could be another victim of crime in the neighborhoods. I don't worry about it, I don't fret about it, I don't get mad over it, I just have learned to accept it, and a great burden was lifted from my shoulders and mind. As some would say, and another slippery slope, is whatever happens in this regard to hawks is God's will, and/or Mother Nature. 

Once my mind was free from this burden of concern about these losses, I could focus on training, and trying to avoid the much higher losses from racing. And truth be told from this loft, my hawk losses although traumatic to see in real time with real blood, pales in comparison to other losses from other causes such as racing. And for goodness sake, this is a pro life bird site. Besides the forum's firm mandate this is a public record. Any thing you say, can and will be used against you in a court of law. So, when as we begin to train our YB's this season and the inevitable happens, realize you will be angry and in an emotional state. Be mindful when in this state of mind, when you vent your frustration in writing. 

The best that one can do in the final analysis from years of trial and mostly error, is to be in the yard when you release your YB's. Your presence alone can interrupt Mr. Hawk attacks, causing him to have less success. I have numerous success stories of birds winning diplomas after attempted hawk attacks, because I was able to get to my racing homer, before Mr. Hawk could kill him on the ground. Mr. Hawk needs some amount of time to turn the pigeon over and rip his wing muscles, then he tears out the crawl. Interrupting him in those vital seconds when he takes the pigeon to the ground can make the difference between a relatively minor treatable injury and death. Sometimes that can be achieved as simply as yelling " Hey You Cooper Dude !! As you politely walk over to him asking him in a nice way to leave your yard. That way, at the end of the day, all parties are well, although some may be more hungry then others, we can all hold hands, or claws or whatever, and sing a few lines from "Kumbaya" as we all sit around a nice warm cosy campfire, and listen to the crackling of the logs on the fire !


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## almondman

My apologies to everyone. I did not mean to offend. My post was not meant to be political, but you are right, this should have been kept in the context of the birds.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3R6FV6xUPxc#!

I just knew that if I took a video or said I liked this bird, that it would be like a kiss of death ! Last seen two days ago heading east with a Cooper Hawk in hot pursuit !!


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## italianbird101

Warren, You can allways keep hoping that it got away and will return. I also have a lookout for it in case it comes my way. Ive had some return after weeks of being missing.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

italianbird101 said:


> Warren, You can allways keep hoping that it got away and will return. I also have a lookout for it in case it comes my way. Ive had some return after weeks of being missing.


Thanks Mel. My experience with young birds is that there is a small window of time in which a YB, just a few weeks after weaning, will return to the loft after a hawk attack. More often then not they will show up the next morning. But after several days, I wish I would be surprized, but I wouldn't put money on it.


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## kalapati

i am always being visited by falcons here in my loft and i think some of my losses were because of them. do you guys see falcons flying above your loft too? 

anyway, i am fascinated by the beauty of this bird. i can't find this version of a peregrine in the wild video on Youtube so I ended up recording it from my TV using just my Iphone then uploading it to Youtube. you may find this clip very interesting for you can see how a peregrine protects her nest by bringing down a flock of pelicans just passing by.


http://youtu.be/-wpM1LwKaak



kalapati
San Diego


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## Jay3

Link didn't work.


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## kalapati

Jay3 said:


> Link didn't work.


i edited the link and it should work now...sorry



kalapati
San Diego


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## Jay3

Thanks, it works now. Amazing! I wouldn't mess with her!


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## CBL

*See if this helps....*

Hi, I have read this post from beginning to end in a few days.

Behavior wise, no predator bird likes competition and no bird wants to hang around when they hear distress calls. Has anyone tried playing a Coopers distress call in the yard before releasing birds. I was watching a video of bird banding and the young were screaming their guts out while being handled and got me thinking, if I broadcast that call on my ipad before flying it will do one of two things. Any local cooper or sharpie will beat a hasty retreat or they will show themselves to investigate the cause, either way they give up their position.

I have BB guns and have in the past shot them off into the air to scare of any hawks, usually just the sight of me if they are in a tree is enough to send them on their way. (bad hair day lol)

I had just released 3 males for a loft flight and immediately saw a coopers fly low and right by them. I ran out with BB gun and started shooting off into the air to keep my birds up, coopers only went low from back to front yard into a tree for the purpose Im sure to ambush on landing. I walked out front shot into the air and off he went. Birds trapped and seemed unperturbed even when hawk was present. Either they didnt see him or didnt care.

Regarding the Feds and caring, not sure they care enough too enforce unless you have a dead bird in hand and start waving him around for all to see. Provincial anyway made it clear yesterday that it is VERY hard to protect anything. Long story short. Have a pair of nesting bald eagles across the street from me. Their young fledge at the same time my water ski season ends and hunting season starts, I contacted them in worry that the hunters are scaring the young out of town during critical phase of learning how too hunt for themselves. She quoted me a few laws both Fed and local saying as of 09 they have been taken off the endangered list. Thereby not being protected even from hunters blasting in their nursery. She said would have to basically hand over a dead shot up eagle to make a difference or start a political war with the hunters. I dont think they give a rats tail for coopers either.

I had a this years coopers hen with a bum foot on my loft twice a day for 2 weeks just this past month, as soon as I set out a trap, she left and never came back. I think a cold snap sent her south. Im fine with that. M birds were glued to the back wall of the loft and refused to come out to flight deck to sun themselves. 
Starting too normalize now. See if anyone tries the Coopers distress call and if it works, would be interested to know. Alternatively, play any other LARGER bird of prey call, any natural enemy to coopers and see if they book it outta dodge as well  Just my two cents......
AND, for the record, shiny objects, Mirrors, mannequin heads on poles, flags, plastic owls, three of them, plastic crows, NOTHING works. I think the plastic geese will be my next attempt. I say go for the distress calls or predator calls and that is your best bet.  CBL

I will now try to find the thread to introduce myself properly..just had to post here before I forgot my train of thought, thanks.


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## CBL

*Here is a link to distress calls*

http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Coopers_Hawk/sounds

My hen did NOT like it when I played the first one, she keyed up fast. lol


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## Doig

Woah, What a post... Very interesting experiences... 

I see this lovely flyer every morning... ever since the cold crept up on us. Rather heading south, it headed towards the woodlands in my backyard. I am most definite its residence is due to my neighbors bird feeders. 

Its a bit blurry, OK a lot blurry (I was in my car.. about to back up)


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## LUCKYT

Cooper's can be taught...use Game bird netting spread over your loft entrance area, spread it as high and as far as you can afford. do this in early spring, or late spring. the Cooper's will make passes at the Young birds, BUT will spook when they come close to the netting...The Young birds will learn to fear and watch for Hawks, while the Cooper's soon get "On edge" since they take a great risk at hitting the net. last year was the best!The cooper's would make tentative passes, but never hit one, this happened almost every day. 
Prey is Prey.... Risk is not something a Predator likes.........


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## CBL

lucky, I have some soft netting, so do you mean spread it in front of the flight deck like a badminton net? And keep birds inside or in deck and when bird tries to swoop down he will hit netting and not like it of course, but then we take the netting down after the spring migration and when we start flying? Sounds like a plan, elaborate so I can see about setting it up. My hawk left as soon as it was a bit of a cold snip. Havent seen it since and I assume she is gone as the birds are all going out to sun in the flight deck, when she was here, they locked themselves down.


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## LUCKYT

Cooper's, at least around here hold their territory year round, at least our Pair does.
I use the net(game bird netting) until the Goshawks migrate through (early April or later).
I stretch it from my landing Board to a platform or a smaller loft so the pigeons can sit on top of the loft, with the netting over them. 
It must be a temporary set up i have found. ( I have used this system for a while now. )The Hawks DO NOT hit the net, I have never had this happen, their eye sight is to good. 
It is the fact when diving they do not realize it is there until right near it, and it startles/ spooks them NO predator likes to be startled, they are the ones usually doing the startling/catching off guard
It is a fact Cooper's have favorite prey types varying from bird to bird, Pair to Pair. there are many accounts of them nesting near poultry farms and not taking any young chickens.
Around here they favor Grackles, and starlings, both species are rare bird in
our yard the last few years.(they were all over the place several years ago)
I see Cooper's pretty much every day around our Yard, I can see them from my easy chair.
If you condition the local Cooper's pair they, and the young they raise(and train) will have less interest in your birds. but you still have to use some common sense. 
Another benefit of working with local hawks is the defend their territory aggressively, from other Hawk Species.


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## CBL

Ya we have residents here thru the winter also, but the one injured hen that was harassing my birds finally left at the two week mark. 

Ok so Im not totally understanding. You spread the net laying down so the pigeons or the hawk can sit on it? I thought it would be spread across like a fence so that they run into it or spook when thy get close???

Any pics would be good if you happen to have some. Thanks. I think its a good idea as I have seen them use pigeons as decoys and net the hawks but the net was upright like a fence not laying down? You say that even just standing on netting freaks them out?


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## LUCKYT

Check my edit..........


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## LUCKYT

I will post the pics I have later.....We have a thaw going on here, time to go out and scrape, and add more nest boxes.


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## LUCKYT

r
The view is not the best, but the netting goes over the back cage, to above the back loft high enough for the birds to sit just below the peak.It could be set up so they could sit on the Peak, as long as some over head space is there.
The passage way is not up when netting is in place. 
The netting will not work if left up all the time. 
I know this for a fact, the Hawks just work the edges once you start letting your birds go out.
The whole thing works on the fact that after you have your birds settled, (sometimes letting them out of the netted area) you remove the netting and the Hawks are very shy about hitting your birds where the netting was creating some what of a safety zone.
It assists in settling "wing strong" Homers and old Bird rollers also, lets them out, but if they panic, they can not go far. 
It is NOT Raccoon, or predator proof, and only to be used in day time with some supervision the first day or so.


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## LUCKYT

Netting in place, before new aviary/ Landing board was built. this is the first day this flock had been allowed access to it.
Looks like hell BUT....I rarely lose a bird to the Hawks. 
some day I will set up the posts as permanent landscape features, lol.


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## CBL

Ok so I see that the netting is up and across the posts cool! but is it also LAYING on top of the coop where the pigeons are standing on it? THANKS Mr. T  Will save it and try to blow it up to look better. Um the tunnel thing, where does it go to? I was thinking of trying to make something like that for me birds to go to the new cage I bought them. or to the dog run, but I would need to make it weasel proof still.


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## Jay3

No. It has to be above the birds, or there would be no point in it. Just not a great shot. They are under it.


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## LUCKYT

Jay3 is correct, I took the shot with my old cell phone... A long time ago.
The passage way is so birds in my small loft can have the use of the Landing board/aviary. I fly my Breeder rollers out of the small loft, it is put up and taken down as needed. At the present time it is down, since all my birds are locked up this time of year, and all Birds are in the garage Loft breeding sections.
The main point I want to get across is you have to use your imagination to live with Hawks. 
You can not do it the way your father or grand father did. 
Your Pigeons must be exposed to the Hawks under controlled conditions,
and the Hawks must learn they can not easily catch your Birds. 
Hawks cannot afford to waste energy and they WILL learn to not spend to much energy going after your Birds. You must educate Pigeons as well as the Hawks so you can enjoy your birds.


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## CBL

Jay??? LuckyT thanks for clearifying that for me. I have ordered bear bangers, whistlers and flares. I am told I can use the whistlers for wildlife control. I will have to test the bangers as we have open duck season now and it will just sound like one of the hunters shooting. I normally shoot off the BB gun before I fly to scare of any hawks thata are close by. I also mostly listen to my resident wild life. If I dont see or hear any birds or squirrels then I dont fly. I need to see activity in he yard and I know all is good


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## LUCKYT

LOL. It is never good. I used bottle rockets/firecrackers for YEARS, it was great when you could see them, or you were sitting outside.( and they do get used to them)
My flying team/teams fly 45 mins. to 2 hours, you can not be there all the time. The secret to cooper's is, the wildlife only knows they are there part of the time. a B.B. gun is useless around here.


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## mat6-26

RodSD said:


> I think there is no solution to this hawk problem. I now just cried after it got my bird today.


I know this thread is old, sorry to revive it but, I cried all day too after I lost my first 2 birds to a hawk, prob the cooper thats been coming around. I hate them. Im so sad about today. Again, sorry to wake this thread up its just your words were mine today 😢


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