# Sick Pigeon - Please help



## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

I came home to a cat attacking a pigeon. I picked the pigeon up and brought it home. I put him in a small bathroom with a light for heat and water . Yesterday, the pigeon would not move. This mornign the pigeon looked more alert and was walking but not flying. I tried to feed it but it does not eat. The poop is green and watery.

When I took it outside another pigeon can and started pecking at its head so I brought him back in.

I am in Miami Fl, I don't know what to do. Please help!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, we've got a member in Miami that might be able to help although she's been snowed under, so to speak.

This could be a lot of different things and it's impossible to tell without more description. It could be a sick bird and it's mate was trying to get it to come back home (they communicate about like us, sometimes) or it might have been a youngster and it's being attacked for getting in somebody else's way--you just never know.

First, though, if it's been attacked by a cat, it may have gotten infected by Pasteurella multocida, a bacteria that can be lethal to birds that cat's often have living in their mouths. Therefore, we usually don't take the chance and get the bird on a course of Amoxicillin or Clavamox (Amoxicillin/Clavulanic Acid combo) or even a few others.

Anyhow, going on the possibility that this is a young bird and doesn't know how to fly, eat or drink, yet, can you check to see if the "ceres" (the little numbs at the base of the beak) are white and fully developed or gray or pink? Another question--are there any little yellow hairs anywhere on the feathers?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Also, do you know if the pigeon has been drinking? I'd imagine so since its poop is watery but we still need to know. Can you describe the poop a little more? There should be some solids (a small blob of green bile paste will come out regardless of whether there're solids or not--don't mistake that for solids) and some white paste (urates; and they should be whitish instead of yellow or greenish) and there can be some liquid water. It shouldn't have a mucoid consistency but it might.

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

It does not seem like its a baby, but I will try to check and perhaps post picture. I really don't know if it has been drinking. The poop is completely liquid and greenish


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When did you rescue it?

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

I rescued it yesterday about 8:30 PM


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

I placed it in the small restroom with water and light. Now its back in the restroom with light,water and food.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Try this--get a white paper towel (absorbent paper) and touch it to one of those liquidy poops and then see if the color of the towel shifts green. Try to note if it's a strong "acid green" or a blue-green.

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

yes the color of the towel went to green. More like an avocado green


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does it seem like there's an awful lot of the stuff? And there's no white anything?

Try dipping the bird's beak in a bowl of water to see if it's thirsty.

Another question is can you feel the breastbone, or, more to the point, can you pinch it between your fingers and hang on to it? That would indicate that the bird has lost a lot of weight (anorexic).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I saw the picture and that looks like some kind of dove instead of a pigeon. I can't tell which kind but it may be a juvenile. Can you take a picture of its face kinda' straight on?



Also, what kind of food do you have like frozen peas or corn (not canned--too much salt) or wild bird seed? Puppy chow?

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

yes, I will take a picture straight on. The poop does have some white in it. Also ,I put its beak close to the water and it drank. I have egg yoke with oatmeal. I read that on another page.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, you can attach the pictures by way of clicking on the "Go Advanced" ****on that's below the text window. If you scroll down when the advanced editor comes up, you'll see something that says "Manage Attachments". If you click on that, it's mostly self-explanatory. I'm almost near the limit on how much I can store on here so if you can figure out how that works, you can post the pictures yourself and then it'll be on your account.

Thanks,

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I think things might be looking better at this point. We're hoping that it's just a matter of him being a tad on the young side and just not knowing what and how to eat yet. We don't want to get too much in him too fast at this point, though. Do you have a 1-pound kitchen scale that you could weigh him with? He might be less than 100 grams. It'd be best to only give him about 10 percent of that for the moment. Did you ever feel his keel (breastbone)?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

That is a dove - looks like a ringneck? Possibly fledgling sized.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I think he just hasn't figured life out yet. And then, of course, he HAD to meet a cat...

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

okay I am going to try to post the pictures. Yes, I felt the breast bone but it does not seem to be anorexic


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, good, this might turn around fairly quickly then and you'll end up with a pretty lovable handful. Getting food down it's going to be a little bit fun, though. That beak's pretty small and it's not going to understand at first. I'd probably shoot for a teaspoonful. It'd be really good if you could pick up a bag of wild bird seed or dove mix (preferred) and then teach him to "peck" by tapping your finger or a pencil in the food in front of him. You might need to perk up his attitude by force-feeding some down him first though. And, it'll take time for him to get that energy into his system. He's probably initially dehydrated some and so you can put the pinch of salt and sugar in his water. There's also a product called Pedialyte that you can get that has electrolytes in it.

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

okay here are the pictures


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

okay how do I feed him, I am kind of confused


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's the fun part and some of it depends on what kind of food you have to give him. Normally, he'd be pecking at small seeds about the size of a grain of wheat. If you have to force-feed him, you're going to have to hold the bird, pry the beak apart with your fingernails and pop the seeds in, bit by bit. It can be time consuming and sometimes when they figure out what you're doing, they get into the act and it can get pretty easy.

But, again, it depends on what you're going to be feeding him.

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

Were you able to see the pictures?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure, they worked just fine. Go ahead and add the first one to the set (use the Edit ****on to get there) and I'll delete it out of mine.

What do you have to feed the little fellow (no sunflower seeds)?

Pidgey


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

Well I can go buy him the seeds. Can I get them at Publix?
Is he a baby? Does he look healthy. Is it a dove or a pigeon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, you can probably buy wild bird food at Publix (try to get a dove mix) and, yes, he's fairly young, doesn't look particularly unhealthy and is definitely a dove, probably a ringneck like Lady Tarheel said.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I think Maggie is correct...

Cindy (AZwhitefeather) has been feeding doves lately. She'll know what to feed, how and possible release criteria...

I e-mailed her...


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks, I will go get the food. When do I release him? I appreciate all your help


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, let's just take first thing's first. He shouldn't be too long from release--he may just need to learn to eat first, get his strength back and then we'll go from there.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for helping out Pidgey, Reti won't be home until after 5:00 today.


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks, I got the bird seeds, tried feeding but I could not get him to eat. He is drinking. I will try again in a bit


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

amarin210 said:


> Thanks,* I got the bird seeds, tried feeding but I could not get him to eat*. He is drinking. I will try again in a bit


Hello Amarin,
Thank you for taking this sweet bird under 'your' wing.  

As a suggestion, you might want to pick up some Kaytee Exact Baby Bird Formula. You can mix a little with water & offer it to her. With the Inca Dove I had, I placed a bit of the formula between my fingers & once she got the hang of it, she had no problem. When I noticed she was beginning to 'peck' at the formula, I began placing a few small, canary size, seeds on top of the formula & before long she was eating on her own
.
Our new visitor, a White Winged Dove, http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15877 is much younger than the Inca Dove, so I'm going to give Phil's 'nipple feeding' method a try.

You also have the 'cat attack' issue & she may be in shock, not feeling well, etc. 

The fact she is drinking on her own is wonderful.

Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

Hi! Cindy,

I bought the Katte food, but unfortunately they did not have the baby formula only the supreme. I went to three different places. I have tried unsuccesfully to feed him. I try opening up his beak and holding him at the same time but its not easy. I am waiting for my husband to get home to see if we can do it between the two of us. Do you have any suugestions as to how to make the seeds easier for him to eat.

Thanks,

PS. Do I keedp the light on for him in the bathroom or do I turn it off?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

amarin210 said:


> Hi! Cindy,
> 
> I bought the Katte food, but unfortunately they did not have the baby formula only the supreme. I went to three different places.
> *I have tried unsuccesfully to feed him.*
> ...


Another thought, I didn't see it mentioned, unless I overlooked it, you might want to check the inside of his mouth. It should be free of any obstruction, specifically any 'yellowish, cottage cheese' appearing matter. Pigeons & doves often develope canker, which is treatable, however can hinder their eating, thereby causing them to become grounded & an easy catch for any predator.  This is just another option that may be the cause of him not eating.

Have you been able check his keel (breast) bone yet? There should be sufficient muscle on both sides. 

Cindy

Just an afterthought:
Pidgey mentioned Pedialyte as an electrolyte. You can also add to a cup of water, a pinch each of salt & sugar. This can be used instead of plain water. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for now. It will help give him a bit of a boost.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If you can't find Kaytee Exact, there are other brands of baby bird formula such as L&M Neonate or Lafebers. You can also get by for a time by using human baby cereal to mix into formula for the bird.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As old as the bird is, wouldn't the Kaytee Premium be just fine? I think the part that she's having trouble with is actually getting it in the bird. It just doesn't know how to eat this way, yet.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, when it comes to feeding a fussy bird, we often resort to the "bird burrito" method where you literally wrap the bird in a towel (not too tightly) so that just its head is sticking out. You can invert your left hand and cradle the head between the middle and index fingers while holding the sides of the head with the index finger and thumb. At this point, you can pry the beak open with the fingernails of the right hand and then shift the left index and thumb to hold the beak open. Then, you can roll seeds in. You have to let go for him to swallow. If you're using a syringe with formula, you can put a blob in the mouth and then let it go. He'll have to swallow it then. Repeat as necessary.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I just send you a PM with my phone #, you can call me.
I have Harrison's juvenile formula and syringes of all sizes if you want to raise the baby or I can take over if you like.
BTW, this a ringneck dove, looks lke, I have three right now, they are so great and sweet.
Let me know if you need anything.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The bird is with me now. Amarin brought her over to my place. Wonderful people, so nice and caring.
The poor bird is in pretty bad shape, although not too skinny (136gr.), she is fluffed and doesn't put up any resistance when handled, so I guess she must feel lousy.
She eliminated a yellow liquid when I put her on the counter, no droppings.
I gave her 1/2 Spartrix and started Cipro.
I gave her 20cc of watery formula and now she is sleeping warm and comfy, well as comfy as she could possibly be in her condition.
I hope she makes it through the night. Very sweet bird, I so hate to see those babies suffer.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you Reti and Amarin! I truly love it when Pigeon-Talk members are able to help one another and the birds out! 

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Terry, I feel the same.
The Dove, her temporary name, made it through the night. There is not much change in her condition, maybe she is just a bit perckier. Her droppings changed to liquid green, no solids. Any ideas what this could indicate? The green is kind of slimey. I offered some food, but she is not interested, so before I go I give her some formula Neem oil and HDHA which helped with all my other ones and won't harm her.

I have a long day ahead of me and an exam this afternoon. I hate to leave her but Lee is home and will keep an eye on her.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you take a poop sample to work with you and run a fecal float on it?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Can you take a poop sample to work with you and run a fecal float on it?
> 
> Pidgey


I am going to school, not to work. I am not going back to work until Saturday.
I could drop off a sample at the clinic tomorrow though. Only thing, it is just water, how am I going to collect it?


Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

With an eye-dropper, if necessary. I've had to do quite a few like that. That doesn't work if the bird's standing on something absorbent so, in such cases, get 'em standing on something plastic like a kitty-litter pan.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> With an eye-dropper, if necessary. I've had to do quite a few like that. That doesn't work if the bird's standing on something absorbent so, in such cases, get 'em standing on something plastic like a kitty-litter pan.
> 
> Pidgey



That's going to be tough cause it's only puddles that spread out, I might not get enough of a smaple.
Anyways, I am at school but called home and Lee said she vomited. Not good.
He fed her a thinner formula later, hope she keeps that down.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> I offered some food, but she is not interested, so before I go I give her some formula Neem oil and HDHA which helped with all my other ones and won't harm her.
> Reti



Hi Reti,

I'm glad you have the dove, although I know you are up-to-your-eyeballs  in studying and etc.

This is what I love about these products, you don't HAVE to have an immediate diagnosis, you can use them worry free and see results, and it won't compromise their immune system and actually helps their immune system. Don't forget the Silver also. I am trying to get Davey to get over to your place and drop off the Alli-supreme, and Reishi. He is also up to his eye-balls  in work. I will remind him.

My vet told me to have the bird sit on wax paper for wet poo's. It works.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Might be worms. Were there any solids (undigested seeds tending towards the larger sizes) in the vomitus? If so, I'd try to get some Levamisol down her in a hurry.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Might be worms. Were there any solids (undigested seeds tending towards the larger sizes) in the vomitus? If so, I'd try to get some Levamisol down her in a hurry.
> Pidgey



I would not administer such heavy duty stuff right now, on a "might be". I would think the chapparel tea might be less offensive in a bird that is already in a vulnerable state.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's kind of the beauty of Levamisol--it doesn't affect the bird much, like, say, Fenbendazole (Panacur) would. It does make them a little queasy for awhile but... he's already throwing up.

Here again, this is why I keep a microscope handy for this very purpose. If, for instance, it was a roundworm infestation of the intestines, then they've got to come out posthaste or the bird's pretty much dead. Sure, there can be only enough space to let some food slip by but when they're throwing up due to obstruction, it's _bad._

Now, I'm not saying that this IS worms, but that's one of the things to rule out fairly quickly when vomiting is going on and there's not much but water coming out the back end.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you, Treesa, don't rush Davey, I know he is so busy. I have everything but Reishi, and I am giving her the rest including colloidal silver.

Thanks Pidgey. I have Ivomec, inectable. Could be worms, of course. It is so touch when you don't know what you're treating for.
Lee fed her thoughout the day and she didin't vomit anymore, maybe I fed her too much in the morning.
I just fed her for dinner, only 10cc's thin formula., her weight is the same.
No solid droppings, just green fluid, nothing else. Her vomitus was fluid too, the formula. I feed her with the tube, a pretty large one and I didn't notice any obstruction as I was thinking canker way down.
Thanks for the suggestion with the wax paper, Treesa, where do I get it?
Could she tolerate the ivomec?

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On the Ivomec, I don't know. I've never really researched that stuff. Somebody else is going to have to make that call.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, from what I've heard it is not all that toxic. 
I was also thinking, if she had worms, wouldn't she be skinny? This bird is not skinny at all, just a little underweight.
Well, she is still hanging in there. No more vomiting. I feed her smaller quantities of formula more often. Still no droppings though.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> Thanks for the suggestion with the wax paper, Treesa, where do I get it?
> 
> Reti



Hi Reti,

You can get the wax paper at the grocery store, where they sell all the plastic wraps and foils.

I would go with the least offensive de-wormer, if there is a possibility of a worm infestation. If she is on garlic, that will help, did you ever get the chapparell tea?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, here's the deal on worms--you can't ever really know until after the fact. It's all a matter of how many ripe worm eggs they picked up and what stages of growth they're in. If the bird got a large load of roundworm eggs at one time, it might be fine right up until the last few days when the worms are all together in the intestines and fatten up to the point of closing off the intestines. That's when the birds start losing weight and going down hill rapidly. Usually, they're in better shape and seem to have a ravenous appetite. They then throw it all up and try again. It's like the "binge/purge" cycle of bulimia. That's where this one differs and that could be because of a complicating illness or because it's something else. If you're packing food in one end and it ain't coming out the other, though... it ain't good. Some water must be getting through but you have to wonder if it's enough to keep the bird hydrated. What I saw with Debbie was that she'd eat for at least a day, then throw up, eat for another day, throw up... She had just enough room left for Kaytee to squeeze through but not a single piece of corn--that plugged her up until even the Kaytee wouldn't get through and then she'd throw up again.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Pidgey,

I agree that immediate action should be taken....

but which one would be best measure for this little guy?
Ivomec, chaparell, or Levamisol?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

At this point, probably whatever she has but I still HATE giving a wormer without even testing for worms, though! Of course, testing might not reveal anything if the intestines were so plugged that virtually nothing whatsoever was getting through. It's just a shot in the dark. You know, on that one weblink that showed necropsies of that REALLY bad coccidiosis, the intestines were so bad that you could imagine them just about closing off, as well, for that matter.

By the way, the only wormers that I have are Panacur and Levamisol and I've never used Ivomec or Chaparell (don't even know what that one is).

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, it seems to me that this little guy is not showing weight loss because the food is building up. We use Pyrantel for a wormer because our vet said it is very "forgiving" in a bird. We started out using Panacur but she switched to the Pyrantel because she liked it better. 

I do have some material on Panacur written by a noted NC rehabber who says it is the best choice for young birds because of safety and it is also effective against capillaria. She also said it removes and controls roundworm, flat worm, fluke, tapeworm, and gapeworm with a wide margin of safety and effectiveness. She states about Ivomec that it should be used with caution in young animals. (She also rehabs mammals and animals.) I would think care should be taken with young birds also.

You can give worm medicine and Coccidia medicine two hours apart. 

I wouldn't give it anything though until you get a fecal test done.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> By the way, the only wormers that I have are Panacur and Levamisol and I've never used Ivomec or Chaparell (don't even know what that one is).
> Pidgey



Pidgey,

Given there has not been a fecal done I vote for the least toxic.

Chaparell is a natural de-wormer (herbal tea), cleans them right out without harmful side effects, but it is nasty what comes out.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks so much for your input.
I have chaparel, I got it for my cats, but never used it due to the high dose it is required and all cat owners know, you cannot give 20cc of fluids down a cat's throat, at least with my cats that would be impossible. My cats get injections only. The ivomec worked on them and all my birds.
I had side effects with the Panacur, so i don't even buy it anymore. Two of my birds got sick and I know it was from the Panacur.

I will give The Dove chaparel tea tonight and see what happens.
Spartrix and Cipro don't seem to improve her condition at all. She is not vomiting but her droppings now changed to brownish-yellow (from green) Her weight is actually up 4gr. She is not eating, just sits fluffed and sleeps a lot.
It is unusual that when I put her on the counter to get her stuff ready and clean her cage, she walks up and jumps on my arm and wants to sit there. Never seen a wild bird doing this.


Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I just wanted you to know that I read all your posts and cases but I very seldom have anything to add or suggest. Since you are so experienced with rehabbing pigeons yourself as well as your extensive medical background, I feel very ineffectual. I wish you the best of luck with this collared/ ring neck dove and I'm sure you'll get her better, you nearly always fix them up


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## amarin210 (Jun 5, 2006)

You don't know how wonderful it feels to have available a community of such caring, compassionate people. Reti, you are a blessing to me and Dove. I thank God that you are looking over this baby. I read the post all the time crossing my fingers and praying that Dove is getting better.

You are ablsolutely right this baby would just sit on my arm for as long as I would let him. I believe he or she was happy when it was sitting on top of my hand. I let her go out twice to see what she would do and she would walk right back into my house when I had her. 

Thank you for all you do


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you, Brad and Amarin. You're too nice.
Well, I think I know what is wrong with her and I could hit myself on the head I didn't realize it yesterday. I kept on thinking, she is pooping just water, not eating but gaining weight, vomiting when fed so it has to be crop stasis/sour crop. Now there might be an obstruction maybe due to canker or worms, I don't know.
For now I stopped all feedings and put her on Nystatin. Before that I aspirated with the tube some of the gunk she has in her crop and it is a lot, plus seeds that obstructed my tube, so that stuff has been in there for quite a while since she hasn't had seeds for days now.
She is getting only Spartrix for now, Nystatin, water with chaparel alternating with water and vinegar and pedialyte

I hope she makes it. She is so sweet, poor thing.
I remember you told me, amarin that she is very tame. Very lovable.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I think you are probably right, Reti! Well done! I hope the little one will be improving soon!

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Latest update: crop is almost empty, and we have poops, real ones, green and slimey, but they are there. She still looks miserable, poor thing.
I am thinking of intrudicing some thin formula tomorrow morning. What do you think? She will be 36hours without food by then.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How did the weight adjust when you emptied the crop? You almost need to chart it. Did you get a fecal done?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> How did the weight adjust when you emptied the crop? You almost need to chart it. Did you get a fecal done?
> 
> Pidgey



This is weird, her weight now is 145gr. How could she be possibly gain weight? I am puzzled by this. I don't think she is retaining fluids, she urinates a whole lot, unless she has some edema. I will have to monitor closely the input.
I will do the fecal on Saturday. If I get off school early tomorrow I'll take it tomorrow.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, something has to be making it through. Frankly, if nothing whatsoever was making it in, she wouldn't last too long. The fact that she's hung on this long says that something's getting in and keeping her energy minimal to be sure but not proceeding to flatline. Write down all the amounts that you give her. You can't weigh what's coming out but you can note its consistency and that's about it.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am at loss here. I don't know what to do, she is not improving, actually she threw up during the night. I flushed her crop and I removed more gunk. Where is that stuff coming from? Her weight is down now, 10 gr. That is a lot. Something is going through since her poops are more consistent.
I will take her with me tomorrow but I don't know of how much help this will be.
BTW, the gunk for her crop is not smelly or anything, it looks like dirty water, that's all. I don't feel any obstruction when going down with the tube, so maybe the obstruction is further down?
Could it be she swallowed something that is stuck in her crop? Then she will need surgery and I don't think she would survive a surgery in her current state. She also will have to eat something, eventually.
I switched her to Flagyl, in case of canker and it also covers the anaerobics.
Has anybody had anything like this before? I could use some ideas.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't know how you could know without lab. If she passes away, be sure and refrigerate her for a basic necropsy later that you should personally attend.

When they get roundworms, the obstruction is below the ventriculus and the vomitus usually includes some seeds that are simply swelled up and others that have been ground up some in the ventriculus. So, the question then becomes "what's in the vomit?"

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I'm sorry to hear she is doing poorly, I'm glad you will be getting a fecal done, hope it is not too late.

Did she pass anything out the other end....like worms, or did you stop de-worming her when she threw up?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you have any Reglan like you used with Sir B?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't have reglan. I would think though that the reglan wouldn't be good in her case if it is an obstruction, vomiting might be beneficial to get the toxic stuff out.
I will do the ivomec now, have no other choise.
I'll let you know what happens.

I had another emegency with Olivia right now, will post later.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might try sedimenting a poop to see if there are any true solids in it.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I'll do that. Thanks.
I just gave her the Ivomec.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

On Ivomec injectable, 2 drops down the throat should be fine. It will work on most but not all roundworms and capillaria. The green slime and vomiting also reminds me of canker however, and this is an illness that doves are particularly
sensitive to from articles that I've read. I see you have the dove on Flagyll so that should take care of that. One other thought might be a bacterial crop infection as opposed to yeast infection of the crop. The appetitie can get off a bit from the meds. Guess I'd want to know if the meds are now contributing to the nausea which is a possibility. Hope you see some signs of improvement today.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks fp, yes, she is on Flagyl and I had vomiting in birds before from the Spartrix, so that is why I discontinued it. 
Could be bacterial crop infection too, like you mentioned. I am thinking if I should start her on an antibiotic. I guess will give her Sulfatrim, it is mild and should take also care of coccidia.
I gave her the Ivomec injectable. She is drinking tons of water on her own, still think I should feed her a thin formula, she hasn't eaten in 40 hours now.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I am so sorry to hear your little patient doesn't seem to be improving.  
Are you giving her the rehydrating solution or plain water?

Sure hope she makes a turn around soon.

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I am so sorry to hear your little patient doesn't seem to be improving.
> Are you giving her the rehydrating solution or plain water?
> 
> Sure hope she makes a turn around soon.
> ...



She's getting Pedialyte. I just gave her 10cc's very thin formula, no vomiting so far and she has green slimey droppings. She is drinking on her own, that's good.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The deal that I said about sedimentation? I was just hoping that you'd be able to determine if that green, slimey blob was just pure bile paste.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> The deal that I said about sedimentation? I was just hoping that you'd be able to determine if that green, slimey blob was just pure bile paste.
> 
> Pidgey



I see. How do I determine that?
Right now after the formula, her droppings are brownish-yellowish. She had yellow droppings and urine before one time.
Her droppings are not always green.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Mix it up with 10 times the water and stir the crud out of it. You can pour it slowly through a white paper towel so that it doesn't spread out much (make a cone out of it) and see if any sediment stays in the paper towel.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Some white stuff stayed, that's it. Her poops are brown now.
She vomitited some millet among other stuff. I am pretty sure she has a mechanical obstruction. This fluids do go through. If it was canker or worms she would have shown some improvement. Dovey is getting worse. I have to get out whatever is in there, either dissolve it or have her throw it up, if possible.
I wonder if some olive oil would help.


Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti,

If you really believe that there's something down in the bottom of the crop that's just the right size to plug it off, then you need to go feeling for it. Fred once had one with a roasted peanut down there. He didn't know it until he pinched it with his fingers, worked it outward until he had it under a wide expanse of skin and incised the outer skin and crop to get it out. Then he sewed the bird back up, no problem.

I don't know if he tried to work the object back up the throat or not first, but if you found something you could try that. However, if it's a life threatening situation and you can't find anything in there from the outside, it is actually not a bad trauma to the bird to incise a small hole and go looking inside. You can also do a major flush. You can also find the tube that leads to the proventriculus and run a feeding tube down to the proventriculus, as well, like Snyder had to do to feed that bird.

That's where the otoscope that I mentioned to you in the email could come in very handy, in a situation like this. I know that it's a hard thing to have to do considering the shape the bird's in and only you can make that decision whether to take it to a vet, wait for whatever might happen or do this thing. I'm not going to pressure you. But this seems to be where you're at, like it or not.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Early on in our rehabbing, before we learned to superglue the nipple to the syringe, we were feeding a squab and squirted the entire nipple into the crop.

After panic subsided we rushed him to our rehabber friend who located the nipple and worked it up to his throat and plucked it out of his mouth. The only thing that happened to him was a few feathers lost and a rumpled chest from her having to work on him. I believe it was the first time she had ever done this but it worked.

One other thing I have thought of. We had a dove once that pooped undigested seed and also a robin that was pooping undigested meal worms. In both cases the vet said it was a bacterial infection and to give them antibiotics. I'll need to look up whether it was Bactrim or Baytril. I don't recall any vomiting though with either of them.

Reti, my heart goes out to you. Its so tough to see them so sick.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Pidgey and Maggie, I tried to palpate her crop as thorough as possible, I don't feel any masses, she does have a lot of fluid in there though and it somehow seems to have a lot of air too. Her crop is noisy when I palpate. So, there is nothing I can work up, I tried to find something but it's not there.
I cannot open her up though, unless under full anesthesia, so that is out of the question.
I will take her to the vet tomorrow, get an xray first and see what he thinks.
Hope she can hold on.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I hope she will be okay tomorrow and hope the vet makes himself available.

It has been a tough day for you today.

Sending special thoughts and prayers your way.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> I hope she will be okay tomorrow and hope the vet makes himself available.
> 
> It has been a tough day for you today.
> 
> Sending special thoughts and prayers your way.



Thank you, Treesa. It's been a tough day.
Hope we find out what is wrong with her tomorrow.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

Does sound as though you've had one tough day. My rule of thumb generally speaking is that if a cure would be acceptable to me, then it's OK for my rescues.....I personally would prefer to be under anesthesia and have work performed by someone who is trained/licensed to do so. I whole heartedly understand you wanting to wait and have your vet have a look. I'm hoping and praying that all goes well for Dove tomorrow, and that the mystery will be solved gracefully. In the meantime, I know Dove will have the best of supportive care that can possibly be given.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you fp. I agree, I would also want to be under unesthesia if I was to be cut open and have my stomach explored and of course have it done by someone who knows what he is doing.
She is hanging in there so off to the vet we go.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Back form the vet. The xray showed only an enormous crop, fluid filled mostly with some air. No obstruction.
He didn't do a fecal or blood test for the reason they might not show anything since she is on meds for so long and has been dewormed. So, we don't know what she has. He did remove some cheesy stuff from her throat. though and she will stay on Flagyl only.
Now she is on reglan twice a day 15'before feedings. And I feed her some high concentrated critical care formula twice a day 6ml.
She's getting really weak, hopefully the new formula will help.
She also started developing some spastic movements of her neck and head. I am thinking of giving her some calcium.
I just fed her, see what happens.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, best of luck. Did the cheesy stuff look like it was from canker?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> Thanks Pidgey and Maggie, I tried to palpate her crop as thorough as possible, I don't feel any masses, she does have a lot of fluid in there though and it somehow seems to have a lot of air too. Her crop is noisy when I palpate. So, there is nothing I can work up, I tried to find something but it's not there.
> I cannot open her up though, unless under full anesthesia, so that is out of the question.
> I will take her to the vet tomorrow, get an xray first and see what he thinks.
> Hope she can hold on.



Hi Reti, 


This sounds like a Candida or Sour Crop sort of problem...

Sorry, I do not remember the continuity here, but is this a new developement?


This can stop things up badly of course, to where nothing much but some liquid is passing...


The ACV-Water and or, in addition, some 'Nystatin', might be something to consider here...


Canker can clog them up sometimes, either in their lower esophagus, or likely in the passage between their Crop and Stomach...

I imagein both Canker and Candida can occur at the same time, for that matter...

Scarifications, from illness or infections previous, or reduction from them to the size or the elasticity of either their proventriculum or esophagus, is also an unhappy possibility...



Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> Thanks Pidgey and Maggie, I tried to palpate her crop as thorough as possible, I don't feel any masses, she does have a lot of fluid in there though and it somehow seems to have a lot of air too. Her crop is noisy when I palpate. So, there is nothing I can work up, I tried to find something but it's not there.
> I cannot open her up though, unless under full anesthesia, so that is out of the question.
> I will take her to the vet tomorrow, get an xray first and see what he thinks.
> Hope she can hold on.



Hi Reti,

Full anaesthesia would likely kill this little Bird.


Too, an incision into their front area, to gain access into their Crop, is something I have seen various versions of from injury, which we sutured nicely with no anaesthesia, and the Dove or Pigeon behaved nicely during the proceedure with no displays of objection or stress.

The discomfort of such a proceedure, is far less taxing on them, than the anaesthesia would be.


Some local anaesthesia might be worth considering, but none at all is actually fine for something like this...

The real purpose of anaesthesia has nothing to do with the experience or comfort per-se of the Patient.

It has to do with the convenience of the Surgeon, to reduce or eliminate any objections or fidgeting the patient might otherwise get into.

If the Bird is co-operative, and if one knows how to gently hold them FOR the proceedure to be done, the proceedure may be done just as well, or in fact, even better in many ways, logistically, with no anaesthesia, as it would have been done with anaesthesia.

And the benifits to the Bird, are that he or she will live, where with full anaesthesia, few of them will live, or at least not die FROM the kidney-liver failure, or other effects or incidentals of the anaesthesia, regardless of the proceedure itself...especially if they are already in less than good health.


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Well, best of luck. Did the cheesy stuff look like it was from canker?
> 
> Pidgey



It looked to me, but it came off really easy. Could be the Flagyl is working, I don't know.


Phil it is a little different, I think, being wounded and have to be sutured than cutting into healthy skin and do exploratory surgery.
I would probably do some suturing but I cannot cut an alert and wake bird.
Thanks for your input. It is not the case for now anyways. And i agree, anesthesia would kill her now.


Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Patches was brought to me as a feral that had been hit by a car. He was found on the road, somewhat dehydrated with only one tail feather left and a broken leg. I'm sure that he had the crap bruised out of him as well. He developed canker in his mouth after a few days for which I treated him. The interesting thing was that he had a donut of the cheesy stuff around the base of his tongue that didn't seem to be connected to anything. I removed it easily and there was no bleeding. It helped his breathing some because it was just plain in the way. Anyhow, I always thought that was odd but it sometimes does that in pigeons.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

OMG, she just had a seizure. It was a terrible tonic-clonic seizure and finaly she landed on her back, she had her neck twisted for a few minutes. Now she is back and sleeping. 
Could be we dealing with something viral, could it be PMV? The whole thing could be a neurological issue, crop stasis caused by neurological damage. She is drinking a lot, and I mean a lot of water and urinating a lot. I've seen this with my PMV birds.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


I have one doing this also...

Was Canker...and maybe also Candida...and who knows what all Bacerial else...


The thread Pidgey was into on the presentation os Canker where it may effect the Brain, has been in my thoughts...

Bacterial toxicity maybe oculd induce spells of some kind I suppose...

Otherwise...I dunno...

There are various kinds of Menningitis I hear of but know nothing about...


Oye...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

I'm assuming that the xray also showed the entire GI tract and you were able to exclude some kind of ingestion of a metal object perhaps coated w/zinc? So you could rule out that possibility. Seems they could have a seizure from so many things including a bacterial infection, and the canker could just be secondary infection with another primary health concern going on. The dove has been having nutritional  issues and hypocalcemia and hypoglycemia are also some possibilities that can cause seizures. If the bird does actually have PMV, I would imagine that once stabilized w/the emergency nutritional regimine that you have h/her on that the seizures would continue even though a nutritional deficiency no longer exists. 

I did look up possible side effects of Reglan, there were many links involving seizures, so you could look further into it, but here is one:

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic2/metoclo_ad.htm

One of the sites said to discontinue if there were seizures as they could become more episodic.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here are a couple of other links on Reglan:

http://reglan.drugs.com/

http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/rxdrugprofiles/drugs/reg1369.shtml

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/uspdi/202364.html

Don't know what to say on this, it is a small percentage, but perhaps there
is a natural alternative for what you're trying to accomplish w/the Reglan so that you could at least rule out a negative response to it.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you fp. I didn't even think to look up Reglan.
She just had another seizure, so I am discontinuing it.
Maybe Treesa knows of an alternative.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Good luck Reti, this one sure is another 'on the edge of our/your seat(s) one.
Hope Dovey is doing better by tomorrow.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

Another very challenging day, I'm so sorry ....

What was the Reglan prescribed for?

So we are looking at candida, sour crop, possible PMV or/and anything else?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Treesa, here's a write up on what action Reglan perfoms:

METOCLOPRAMIDE HCl - Reglan (Robins)
Available as tablets (10 mg) or syrup (1 mg/ml) for oral administration.
Also available as an injectable solution (5 mg/ml) for IV or IM
administration. Thought to sensitize tissues to acetylcholine. In
mammals, stimulates gastrointestinal motility without increasing
gastric, biliary or pancreatic secretions. Indicated in birds with
gastrointestinal motility problems, slow crop-emptying, regurgitation
and vomiting that is not associated with blockage of the
gastrointestinal tract.
Has been associated with hyperactivity in some birds. Should not
be used when gastrointestinal stasis is caused be intraluminal or
extraluminal masses that are preventing the movement of
ingesta. Also contraindicated in cases of gastrointestinal bleeding
or perfor-ation.


fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the big question is whether or not the Reglan got stuff going through the intestinal tract. That high-powered formula is probably pretty fine and doesn't have anything by way of solids, does it? That is to say that you may have a hard time knowing if it makes it to the other end. Are the poops changing? Can you give a half dose to keep the possible seizures down? Which came first, the beginnings of the seizures that you mentioned yesterday or the first dose of the Reglan?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Reti,
> 
> Another very challenging day, I'm so sorry ....
> 
> ...


Treesa,

Reglan is used to sometimes jump-start crop or GI stasis by way of stimulating peristalsis. It's been used by folks on the forum before very occsasionally or, rather, by their vets, anyway. Most of the time, the bird's not in as bad of shape as this one is.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, the big question is whether or not the Reglan got stuff going through the intestinal tract. That high-powered formula is probably pretty fine and doesn't have anything by way of solids, does it? That is to say that you may have a hard time knowing if it makes it to the other end. Are the poops changing? Can you give a half dose to keep the possible seizures down? Which came first, the beginnings of the seizures that you mentioned yesterday or the first dose of the Reglan?
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey, I didn't notice any beginnings of seizures from yesterday, did I miss a post? I did notice the symptom of neck twisting after the return from the vets today. 

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She had some neck twisting occasionally, but nothing as bad as today and I didn't notice seizures. 
I fed her for the night, hope she keeps it down, didn't give the reglan.
The formula has also digestice enzimes and I know it is going through, at least some of it by the change of her droppings, they are light colored now, brownish, the color of the formula.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, crud, I think this day's been so blasted long that is seems like yesterday! Yeah, that's the one that I was talking about, though. I can't tell which came first, the first twinge or the Reglan, but it looks like it was probably the Reglan. In that case, you'd naturally tend to suspect the Reglan, but this case is so complex that it's awfully tough to know without withholding the drug for long enough to see if that's it.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

Make sure you are not giving her any kind of formula with sugar in it, as that in itself will allow yeast/candida to thrive.

Fennel is an anti-acid, relieves gas, gastrointestinal spasms, and used for cleansing.

Once you can get her to eat:

Alfalfa is a wonderful source of minerals, including of calcium, potassium, chlorophyll, and contains an anti-fungul.

She needs B complex, calcium and other minerals like potassium/magnesium as malabsorption will cause these vitamins and minerals to be washed out of her body, especially with diarrhea. This may be the reason why she seems to have PMV symptoms as those are the "nerve" nutrients.

Chamomile tea is a nerve tonic, and digestive aid, as it relaxes but use sparingly. 

She should have a good source of the full spectrum of amino acids. You can find this in a good pigeon multi-vitamin and mineral supplement, as alot of them have the amino acids in it. 

Digestive enzymes will provide pancreaten-needed for normal digestive processes. 

Probiotics also important, as well as garlic, Neem as antibacterial and anti-fungul.

ACV in the water, as well as a tiny bit of colloidal silver.Don't use together.


That is all I have for now...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I thought I remembered you saying something about that but I didn't go far enough back in the thread to find them. Started thinking that I was imagining things.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, it's been a quiet night, no more seizures so far.
But she still looks very bad. She is tough baby, still hanging in there.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

That's good news for now and hoping that she continues to show improvement
where the seizures are concerned. I was checking back through the thread and wondered if you did put the dove on Sulphatrim and is h/she still on it if so?

fp


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She had four days of sulfatrim and there was no improvement, so the vet thought to discontinue it. She is on Flagyl.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ivomec is said to get some but not all forms of coccidiosis, so I've read. Perhaps a non-issue for Dovey....

fp


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Ivomec is said to get some but not all forms of coccidiosis, so I've read. Perhaps a non-issue for Dovey....
> 
> fp


She had Ivomec a few days ago.
I am thinking she might have something viral. She doesn't respond to antibiotics, she is very sick, but hanging in there, pretty typical for viruses. I've seen it in patients and I remember when I had viral meningitis and mononucleaosis, also viral, I was very sick but in no danger.
If she had something bacterial, it would have resolved or she would have died.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I'm glad she is holding her own. I would continue the Neem for sure as it is anti-everything (viral, fungul, bacterial) You can cover all the basis with this, but you DO need to get the Reishi and garlic. mmmmmm....gotta call Davey again.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> She had Ivomec a few days ago.
> I am thinking she might have something viral. She doesn't respond to antibiotics, she is very sick, but hanging in there, pretty typical for viruses. I've seen it in patients and I remember when I had viral meningitis and mononucleaosis, also viral, I was very sick but in no danger.
> If she had something bacterial, it would have resolved or she would have died.


Yes, I remember that you gave h/she Ivomec. Canker can also localize in the crop. Well, I'm hoping she continues to stabilize and that other supplements will bolster h/her system and help with h/her healing response. That's the best thing for something viral any way.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Now her left eye is closed by some gunk, hmm.
But one good thing happened. Lee went to pet her and when he put his hand in her cage she backed away. The first time she did that. So, I take it as a good sign. 
She is drinking tons of water and poops quite a bit. Her droppings are brown now.

Thank you Treesa and fp.
Yes, I continue al the goodies for now. I wonder how long I go on with the Flagyl, another week?

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm really watching for some good news here... I've been following the thread, but have no clue what to add is except I'm pulling for the birdie. Every time I see you have posted I'm scared of what I"ll read. Hope this little one recovers, I know all of you are doing all you can. Just wanted to through my support your way.........


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> Now her left eye is closed by some gunk, hmm.
> But one good thing happened. Lee went to pet her and when he put his hand in her cage she backed away. The first time she did that. So, I take it as a good sign.
> She is drinking tons of water and poops quite a bit. Her droppings are brown now.
> 
> ...


Hi Reti,

One of the bacterial conditions that can cause seizures named is Chlamydophila psittaci (formerly Chlamydia psittaci), although canker can
also invade the sinus regions. Sure didn't want to mention that yesterday, although it does have the dubious distinction of 'kinda' being both viral and bacterial depending on where you pull your information.

Think you can go for 2 wks. straight on Flagyl, and I don't know if you stopped and started again at some point and/or if that would count. It's pretty well tolerated though.

fp


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you lovebirds and fp.

Well, you know, the first thing that crossed my mind when I noticed her eye was chlamydia. 
I just fed her and inspected her eye, it is swollen. The upper eye lid is swollen and she keeps it closed.
I didn't stop the Flagyl, it was the Cipro. First I gave her Spartrix, but since I thought the vomiting might be from this, I changed to Flagyl. I will continue with that.
Now, maybe some tetracycline might help, but I hate to overmedicate and everytime there is anew symptom I add something new. 

Reti


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> Thank you lovebirds and fp.
> 
> Well, you know, the first thing that clossed my mind when I noticed her eye was chlamydia.
> I just fed her and inspected her eye, it is swollen. The upper eye lid is swollen and she keeps it closed.
> ...


Hi Reti,

The eye flare up may have been kept in check by the Baytril, although Doxycycline is the drug of choice for Chlamydophila psittaci as I'm sure you know. I believe that Tylan is considered an alternative treatment course. Flagyl and Doxycycline are prescribed concurrently, so if you had Doxycycline on hand you could start Dovey on this. You may also want to use CS topically to help keep inflamation down until the Doxycycline kicks in. It's difficult going by the 'seat of your pants' w/the symptoms presenting.

From what I've read, it might be pretty costly to get an actual firm diagnosis on Chlamydophila psittaci, then too, would you want one? Don't know what to say, but I'm sure you'll make the right decision. In the meantime, bless you for caring for this poor dove.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I would do the chlamydia test. It's 69$, but worth it, since I have other birds and I will not keep her for ever in isolation. It might take her a long time to recover and if that's what she has she needs to be treated for it.
I don't think I have doxycycline. I looked everywhere but can't find it, so must be out of it.
I do have Tylan though. You think I should start her on this without having a proper diagnosis?

Also, I forgot to mention earlier, she did not have anymore seizures, so most likely it was caused by the Reglan.

Thank you Lovebirds. This little one needs all the prayers she can get.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

You could start on Tylan, but if your concern is knowing without a doubt that the dove has it, Tylan might possibly interfere w/the test results on a particular testing modality, this I don't know with certainty. It may depend on the type of test you use to verify its' presence. But the price may also change w/the different tests.

There are new testing procedures in addition to new discoveries regarding the illness. Doves and Pigeons are associated with Serotypes B and E for what it's worth.

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/chlamydiosis.html

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...ophila+psittaci&d=FdT2IkaqMkEk&icp=1&.intl=us

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/articles/psittacosis_chlamydia.htm

The slobberknockerloft article is older than the newer findings on the illness, although I'm sure that much of what he has to say is still relevant. 

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the things that I just read said that "Chlamydiophila psittaci will occasionally cause neurologic signs in birds following acute respiratory or gastrointestinal disease." I suppose it depends on whether the bird breathed in the infective elementary bodies or ingested them. 

Anyhow, if the conjunctiva is involved, it's sometimes possible to confirm a diagnosis with a conjunctival smear stained with Wright's or Diff-Quik. It might contain macrophages with small, round, basophilic intracytoplasmic inclusions. I've got pictures of that and it would definitely confirm a diagnosis. It's a labor-intensive test, though, and would probably cost more than whatever you're going to get for $69. For me, it has the benefit of being able to be done at the house.

Anyhow, I didn't see anything mentioning polyuria/polydipsia--just the enteritis and diarrhea that sometimes occurs. And biliverdinuria. I'm starting to wonder about that bird that I got with real bad biliverdinuria the other day. There just didn't seem to be any of the other symptoms that normall present in pigeons.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, I sure hope that's not what it is.
The test we do for 69$ is the DNA test, it is the only one we do in the clinic.
Will email my vet, see what he thinks.

Thanks for the great links.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, something you might think about is keeping a jug of a chlorhexidine product around to sterilize things and yourselves under the circumstances. You seem to get some really nasty sick cases and that's one of the best ways there is to keep things isolated.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

I sure hope that's not it as well. Hope you get some good news on the emails w/your vet.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Sweety, the doves new name is in the living room, away from everybody else, except Olivia, who is also in the living room, but in another cage, of course.
I handle Sweety always last and I keep her syringes in a container. For sterilizing I use Basic G and bleach. I do hope and pray she doesn't have Chlamydiosis and I did not transfer anything to somebody else by mistake already.
Oh my, what a worry.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

How is Sweety doing this morning?

You don't have to use bleach, as G will out perform it and last a lot longer without the smell.

G reduces the hazard of cross infections from environmental surfaces. It is a bactericidal, fungicidal, virucidal. It kills AIDS virus, and even protects against canine parvovirus and feline leukemia.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Reti,
> 
> How is Sweety doing this morning?
> 
> ...



I remember you told me that. I love it, one downside, it doesn't really clean, I mean remove stains and such. Otherwise, I always have it handy and use it after each sick bird and to clean cages and all. I even put it in their laundry.
It doesn't clean the sink though and leaves streaks in it.
Anyways, it is a great product.

Well, I think I see some improvement with Sweety. Her eye is partially open now, the upper eye lid is less swollen, and she has a tiny abcess in it, like a pimpel, but it is less inflamed. I put colloidal silver in it last night and this morning. 
She moves around more and her crop seems to be emptying better, she had tons of poops during the night.

Thanks for asking

Reti
I hate to leave my babies today, but need to go to school.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As to Basic-G, the active ingredients are quaternary ammonia compounds. Incidentally, even orange juice kills HIV. Just about everything does--it's an extremely fragile pathogen outside the body. Anyhow, before you put your faith in Basic-G to kill or otherwise inactivate Chlamydiophila/Chlamyida, be sure and find documented testing information that confirms its efficacy against that specific family--because they're not like other things.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I went looking myself and if the concentration is right, quaternary ammonia compounds will kill Chlamydia-type pathogens. Now ask me if I could find anything out about how much of it's in Basic-G? That's the $64,000 question. Somebody who's a Shaklee dealer needs to see if the company will provide the information. I found an MSDS but that doesn't tell the required information. I know the Chlorhexidine works but even that isn't as effective against Chlamydia as the chlorine-releasing agents (CRA's) so simple Clorox bleach is good stuff (don't breathe the fumes).

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

Sweety sounds like she's doing better this morning, that is good news. POOPS--YEAH!! Looking forward to your update from your vet when you 
have time today.

If you're interested, here's a link to Oxine AH, the MSDS link is at bottom 
of page. This is the product that re lee introduced here a few months back.

http://www.1800deadfly.com/oxine.htm

Think Foy's carries it. Most of the Pij Supply Houses don't have it yet.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Well, I went looking myself and if the concentration is right, quaternary ammonia compounds will kill Chlamydia-type pathogens. Now ask me if I could find anything out about how much of it's in Basic-G? That's the $64,000 question. Somebody who's a Shaklee dealer needs to see if the company will provide the information.
> Pidgey



Here is the adobe format of the label:http://www.shaklee.net/pws/library/products/00544_label.pdf

If you bring the page up to 200 percent you can read that it is effective on Clamydia Psittaci


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I just had a little bit of fun--we (this means mom & family) got into the Shaklee thing when I was a teenager and I remember the marketing strategy real well--it's all natural and biodegradeable as if all the other, more common commercial products weren't. I just went looking for those main ingredients (Thanks, Treesa) to see what other products used them and they're pretty common (Lysol, for example).

So, it's just a price differential matter, that's all. There seems to be no product superiority other than that.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> There seems to be no product superiority other than that.
> Pidgey


 Basic G is not flammable or will blow up if there is a fire in the house, and it won't turn fabrics into flammable objects if you spray it on, like Lysol. Fireman will tell you if a house has a fire ignited by or with Lysol, it ignites a blue flame. Basic G is not only safe but very effective. Lysol kills 8 pathagons whereas Basic G kills 33 pathagons. Pine sol only 4.

Lysol has some questionable ingredient that also may be carcinogenic, which I won't go into.

Basic G's effectiveness lasts 3 days, whereas bleach no more then 1 hour, without the pungent fumes.

Basic G has no corrosive chemicals, no cresols, no phenols, no ammonia, and no chlorine.

Cost effectiveness??? One quart makes 64 gallons of disinfectant. 1 qt. bleach equals 7.5 gallons of disinfectent, and Basic G is equal to 6 1/2 -12 oz. bottles of Lysol.

Basic G has been scientifically tested based on universally accepted standards, Lysol was tested by its own standards.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I love it as I love the Basic H.
And a bottle last forever.

Update on Sweety. She vomited while I was gone, and it contained seeds. Unbelievable there still seeds in her crop after more than a week.
Her eye is better and she seems maybe a little better. I am off to feed her.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it looks like there are more Lysol products that you can shake a stick at. However, this page shows a bunch of them including Lysol Brand I.C. Quaternary Disinfectant Cleaner which has identical ingredients to Basic-G so it's virtually a carbon copy albeit it at 96% the concentration of both active ingredients.

http://www.reckittprofessional.com/your_facility/RB_HealthCare.pdf

Going for a price, I found that I could get that stuff at one place for a tad less than $25/gallon so, as with everything else, marketing is marketing. If you're willing to buy bulk, then you're going to get a better price than what you're going to get for a aerosol spray can, that's for certain. It's always nice to research fully before you buy, but sometimes, due to circumstances, a person may need something el pronto and I'm just pointing out that there are products that virtually anyone can buy in a pinch that will work just fine.

At least some of Lysol's disinfectant sprays meet the AOAC Germicidal Spray Tests which covers the ones that you're referring to (just scroll down):

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=100466&navAction=jump&navCount=0&id=prod2138204

This illustrates that the regular stuff meets the AOAC Germicidal Spray Test standards. The AOAC is a group that tries to develop test protocols and standards for whatever they're tasked to figure out (www.aoac.org). They're actually working on a test protocol for the testing of garlic right now, how funny!

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> Update on Sweety. She vomited while I was gone, and it contained seeds. Unbelievable there still seeds in her crop after more than a week.
> Her eye is better and she seems maybe a little better. I am off to feed her.
> Reti



Reti,

I'm sorry to hear that she vomited her seeds up, hope she doesn't throw up the formula. Glad to hear she did lots of poops.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> I love it as I love the Basic H.
> And a bottle last forever.
> 
> Update on Sweety. She vomited while I was gone, and it contained seeds. Unbelievable there still seeds in her crop after more than a week.
> ...


It does seem unbelievable, but I do believe you, I've seen this myself--although I'd believe you anyway. It does sound as though she is doing
better, I'm sure the emergency formula is also just helping to stabilize her body in general. When you're not in crisis and have the time, this sounds like a good item to either have on hand or know how to get. Sounds like Sweety has a good shot at coming around the corner through all of this Reti. Good work.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This formula seems to be great. I will find out detais about it and where to purchase it, other than from my vet.
The beauty in it is, it contains enzymes, it is very comcentrated and you give only a tiny amount so the crop doesn't get overloadad.
It is something to have on hands.
I will ask my technician friend for more info tonight.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

Sounds like Sweety is making her comeback! Glad she seems better, enzymes are definitely essential for maintaing proper function of the body, digesting food, and aiding in the repair of tissue. 

Enzymes play a role in virtually all body activities. Life could not be sustained without them. 

Advocados, bananas, and mangos are rich in enzymes, but sprouts are its highest source. But don't try them on pigeons.

I will never forget how well my first and only raised baby pigeons did. I used the Infinity flora with enzymes and calcium in their formula. I thought it was me helping them thrive, but now I believe it was the enzymatic activity I added to the Exact.



Hi Pidgey,

Please check your e-mail.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know if this one's come up on here (the forum) before or not but if it keeps one from reinventing the wheel, I'm all for it:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww6eiv.htm

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is a grat link, Pidgey. Thanks.

I am sure the enzynes help, where did you purchase them from, Treesa?

Sweety is moving around her cage, somewhat, occassionaly she has some weird head movements. She is weak and wobbly, definetly not out of the woods yet, but seems overall a little better. She pulls back when I reach for her, good sign.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> I am sure the enzynes help, where did you purchase them from, Treesa?
> Reti


Hi Reti,


http://www.infinity2.com/product/product.asp

I'm glad Sweety seems to be progressing.


Thanks for sharing that link, Pidgey. It is very informative.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I'm really glad she's feeling better.

Treesa, I still need to get caught up on how enzymes really work but thought I'd mention that folks need to be aware they should NEVER feed any bird avocados. Just don't want anyone to misunderstand.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Treesa, I still need to get caught up on how enzymes really work but thought I'd mention that folks need to be aware they should NEVER feed any bird avocados. Just don't want anyone to misunderstand.



*Thank you, and it has been corrected*


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

A quick update.
Sweety is sleeping a lot, but there was no ore vomiting, lots of droppings and she occassionaly preens. She runs and struggles when I am about to handle her. So, I would say there is definately an improvement.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, so glad to hear she is improving.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

This sounds like a definite improvement, I'm so glad to hear that she's perking up. Again, well done.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*We have a diagnosis*

She has been doing a little better, but just a little. She is trying to slap me now when I go near her, which is good, it means she is better, right?

Anyways, she has been pooping a lot, her crop is empty and I thought I might try giving her some seeds. Well, she went right for them, but has such a rought time targeting the seeds, it's heartbreaking. She is twisting and trying to eat but most seeds are tossed, I doubt she gets any in her.
Adding to that, excessive drinking, the two seizures (even thought they were after the Reglan), her neck twisting, I am pretty sure this is PMV.
They runny eye might have been just an additional infection, or maybe related to PMV, but haven't seen this before.
At least I know what I am dealing with and I took her off all antibiotics today, we'll just go natural for now and continuing the supportive care.
Seems like I have another keeper here.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I love wing-slapping, don't you?

You know, in the wild, they often take all day long to hunt for enough food to keep 'em alive. I used to feel bad about Unie having a hard time of it, but it is a challenge for her and, in retrospect, it's no more or less hard than it is for the wild pigeons outside. If it takes this little one a long time and hard work to get a full meal down, don't worry so much--concentrating on the effort is very therapeutic.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, I am not worried. 
Like you said, it is therapeutic, gives her something to do, she hasn't stopped eating since I've offered her the seeds. Most seeds are on the floor, outside the cage, maybe I should move the bowl to the middle of the cage.
But she seems like she came back to life, she doesn't just sit in a corner all puffed up anymore.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, Unie gets the seed all over the place and you can easily imagine why. I don't feel so bad about that seeing as how a perfectly-healthy, perfectly-sighted pigeon will sling them everywhere, too.

I'm beginning to think that pigeons and doves are just sloppy eaters!

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I'm beginning to think that pigeons and doves are just sloppy eaters!

Pidgey[/QUOTE]

You can say that again.

I moved the bowl to the middle of the cage cause I don't want to vacuum constantly. I have ants you know, so seeds on the floor won't help keeping them away.
She's fine with that, didn't complain so far.
Now, she must be really excited and happy cause she started flipping over occassionally. I've seen this with PMV birds that get excited.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

Does sound as though she's doing better, it's all in the left and right 'hook', lol.
And we all love to see it, although, they can wing slap and still be so far from release and you've gotta love them for that, just showing you that they can live without you, but if you don't mind, they'll just be staying on  ......

And, male or female, I can't tell you how many "Princess and the Pea" stories I've come upon w/feral rescues where feeding is concerned. Out on the street, while competing w/the flock for food, they would eat whatever was scattered for food, but in captivity w/an everpresent supply, they will knock out bunches getting down to their 'favorites'. I tend to 'bend' the 'healthy' module here and give them extras of whatever their favorites are...but the devil is in the details and you could end up picking out their favorites only to have them change their 'favorite' on ya! Oh well....

Don't know if you have a "China Town" nearby, but there is an 'ant chalk' sold there in many of the stores that you simply draw a line with where the ants are entering through, and they will not return....very effective. Since it's not a spray, it is very useful in containing them without the ill effects of a spray...the chalk works better than any ant 'motel' that you could ever purchase. I just don't know of a natural way that is as effective as this chalk.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh yeah, I love the wingslaps. I tell them "you don't need me? ok, then you can go get your own food". Clean up your cage too LOL."
They are lovely.

Hmm, the thing is, I like ants, I think they are cute and smart. I would hate to kill them. I did buy an ant motel, cause at some point I was invaded by them and they were going into the birds cages, but they didn't work. Right now I only see a few occasionally, all I have to do is clean up the tossed seeds.
How does the chalk work, does it kill them?

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes and no.....I think they are too smart and in the 'group mind' mode, it's like they 'remember' that it's there. Seems like in general, they will just avoid the area where the chalk 'bars' them from passing. It's not like I see lots of dead ants, I just don't see them anymore. And where I've been living for a while, they don't come in those areas anymore, yet the neighbors have quite a problem with them. This is without 're-applying' every year. 

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That sounds pretty good. Will look for it.
We have some asian stores around.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Sweety stopped showing any improvement, actually she is getting worse with the neurological symptoms. She is constantly flipping over and after that stargazing for many minutes at a time. This happens several times within an hour. 
While for 19 days all she had was lethargy, now she shows the typicall symptoms which are getting worse each day, it seems to me.
She is managing to eat on her own and she drinks a lot. I stopped all meds and she is getting only vinegar in the water, probiotics and garlic.
Has anyone seen this evolution of disease?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I'm sorry to hear the neurological symptoms getting worse. 

Do you suspect PMV? I guess we need our PMV expert to help out here, and Cynthia would probably know if it actually is PMV related.

What meds did you have her on? Hope you have kept her on the Neem as that is anti-viral, should it be PMV.

Is she still eating and pooping well? Is she stressed easily?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

I'm sorry to hear that Sweety isn't doing well and showing more CNS symptoms overall. If she's been off meds for a while now, would it be a good time to do blood/fecal tests for her? 

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks.
She was on Cipro, Sulfatrim and Nystatin.
I have no doubt it is PMV a fecal at this point wouldn't show anything, she has also been dewormed.
I don't know how easily she gets stressed now, she didn't in the beginng and the fits are not related to any handling or anything else unusual.
She has trouble eating but does get enough down, she poops fine.
Yes she is on the Neeem oil.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Perhaps Cindy or Cynthia will weigh in the best way to manage the CNS symptoms. I believe Cindy used Prednisone to help Pij with symptoms, perhaps Cynthia has some good Homeopathic suggestions as well.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'd ask Cindy about the corticosteroids. Isn't that the only medicine that has actually proven itself to provide significant help with the symptoms? Really, though, if she's managing her own feeding, it sounds like she's not doing too bad under the circumstances.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Well, I'd ask Cindy about the corticosteroids. Isn't that the only medicine that has actually proven itself to provide significant help with the symptoms? Really, though, if she's managing her own feeding, it sounds like she's not doing too bad under the circumstances.
> 
> Pidgey



Yeah, I would say she on the one hand she is doing better, but on the other hand the "fits" are very disturbing, not sure how much for her but a great deal for me.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

But you're no stranger to PMV birds and you know it just takes time. There seem to be plenty of them in the books that end up having to be tube-fed for rather long periods of time (weeks) so if this one's feeding itself, I'd keep up hope.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You're right.
I had several PMV birds, the last one Lolita, having to be tube feed for weeks. But they were getting better with time, not worse.
I guess I am too panicky lately. Too much going on and I am sooooo tired.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, this one hasn't gotten as bad as that, yet, so I'm going to remain hopeful that she'll manage to pull through, maybe longer but hopefully not as deep.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, Just keep on keeping on. I know it is hard but you have worked wonders in the past few months. One of our PMV's was hand fed for over 1 1/2 years.

We had others that took a long time to feed on their own but they finally did.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Tha'ts a long time to hand feed one. How much actual normality did the bird actually show? Was it ever able to enjoy going for walks or petting?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, yes, she was able to maneuver around though she could never fly. She enjoyed being with us always. However, considering her diagnosis, the vet did recommend euthanizing.

Pidgey, still, I think now, with what I've learned, I would have run the risk.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> Thanks.
> I have no doubt it is PMV a fecal at this point wouldn't show anything, she has also been dewormed.
> I don't know how easily she gets stressed now, she didn't in the beginng and *the fits are not related to any handling or anything else unusual*.
> She has trouble eating but does get enough down, she poops fine.
> Yes she is on the Neeem oil.


Hi Reti,
I'm so sorry for what you & that sweet baby are going through.

Pij's seizures weren't brought on by handling either. He was just having them at will, nearly non-stop.

I know there's probably more cons than pros with regard to using Prednisone, but I can only say it worked for us.


The directions were to dissolved a 5 mg tablet in 2.5 mls of water.
Initially, I dispensed 2 drops by mouth once daily, then of course began the gradual decrease. I believe we worked on two week intervals of each dose.

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> The directions were to dissolved a 5 mg tablet in 2.5 mls of water. Initially, I dispensed 2 drops by mouth once daily, then of course began the gradual decrease. I believe we worked on two week intervals of each dose.


Hi, Cindy,

How did the "gradual decrease" work? If you're giving drops, it seems like you can only cut it from two drops down to one, or you'd have to tinker with the time interval between each dosing. Can you give a little more detail?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Pidgey, yes, she was able to maneuver around though she could never fly. She enjoyed being with us always. However, considering her diagnosis, the vet did recommend euthanizing.
> 
> Pidgey, still, I think now, with what I've learned, I would have run the risk.


It's always hard to know how much damage is caused by the illness after the virus itself has long since been eradicated versus whether it's still in the body and capable of further shedding. You would think that after a year and a half that the virus would be competely gone, though.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Cindy, I might try that. I have some prednison, hope it's not expired.
How many days did you give initially?

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> Cindy, I might try that. I have some prednison, hope it's not expired.
> How many days did you give initially?
> 
> Reti


Hi Reti,
I've been trying to get this posted in answer to Pidgey's question but seem to be disorganized tonight.  

Since Prednisone can't *or* shouldn't be stopped suddenly, it's decreased gradually. This is an example of how it was used on Pij. It's been two years since I used it but I believe this is pretty accurate. All doses are by mouth. 

2 drops once daily for two weeks. 
2 drops every other day for two weeks. 
2 drops every third day for two weeks.
1 drop daily for two weeks. 
1 drop every other day for two weeks. 
1 drop every third day for two weeks.

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sad to report that our dear Sweety passed away this afternoon.
I came home from school and cleaned her cage, she was ok, well, she looked sick, but managed to give me slap. I went to clean and feed the birds and when I got back she was dead.
We are heartbroken. I was so hopeful for this sweetheart.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ohhh, Reti, I'm so sorry to hear the news. I know it was a tough situation and that you did so much for her to try and help her pull through. I know she was grateful to be with you and in your care. I'm so sorry.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, that is hard. Sometimes you fight and fight and fight and they just don't make it. I know all too well what that's like. And those are the hardest to lose. I'm sorry for you guys.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry Reti, you really haven't had it easy. I know you did everything you could for her.

Sending a BIG hug.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you fp, Pidgey and Treesa.
It was a shock to us, we were sure she was going to recover eventually.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I am so sorry to read of Sweety's death. You and your husband fought the hard fight, gave her comfort, security and love, which to me is the most important thing. I always try to comfort myself when I lose one that is so sick, that at least they are no longer suffering.

Sometimes it is a tough business being a rehabber. Hugs to both you and your husband.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Maggie.
It is tough and you never stop thinking "what if I did something different and it would have helped"
You're right though, at last she is not suffering anymore..

Reti


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