# Very Strange Yet effective war tool(please post your opinion)



## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58061,00.html
When A pigeon becomes a canray

In This article a pigeon is used instead of a machine to detect biological attacks.
The Miltary claims they seem more sensitive to chemical agents than machines. one soilder stated here we are paying thosands upon thosands of dollars on this equipment and then a 60$ bird comes showing off its more effective.and its pretty good. big bird you just got more info for that new section your opening up"pigeons of war" these littile guys could help. pigeons have been around long enough to tell if theres danger.Well hope you like the link.


thanx


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I'm sorry to say thing but there is some good and some bad in it.
Good that the soldier will know there is something in the air that will harm them; but bad for the bird.
In the title "When a Pigeon Becomes a Canary" refers to the mine canaries.
Miners put canaries around the mine so it would be an early sign that there was toxins in the air (meanly carbon dioxide and other harmful mine gases). When the canaries started acting odd and dying the miners got out of there pretty fast. Then they switch over to flames. 
They are using the pigeons in the same way. 
Sorry to say it, but to me, they just found a cheap way to find toxins in the air.  
Hilary Dawn


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Nothing but "good" from this. Thank you Pigeons and thank you canaries


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> Sorry to say it, but to me, they just found a cheap way to find toxins in the air.
> Hilary Dawn



I agree with you Hilary. This to me, just seems like a wrong way to use a pigeon as a tool in war. I read about this awhile back and I don't feel this is very humane or welcomed knowledge to pigeon lovers in this group.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

It wouldn't be humane at all. What if nurve gas is being used. That poor bird.  I think they should just stick to their contrapions. 
There should be wars/fighting in the first place if people could just sit down and talk their differences out (that's what we do in the home, so why can't our so-called "leaders" do the same).  
Hilary Dawn


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Pigeons In War*

I come from a family that had many relatives serve our country during war time. I myself served during the Viet Nam war. We are a country at war. I love all my pigeons, and have many years and thousands of dollars tied up in them.

But, if sending pigeons to IRAQ, would keep some parents from getting their son or daughter home in a body bag, then so be it. Having been there when a brother came home in a body bag, I may have a different perspective.

I love my pigeons, but if someone places the life of a pigeon, above our sons and daughters in that hell hole, in IRAQ. Then in my opinion, they have their priority's all screwed up !

I applaud those who are serving in our military, and I applaud those fanciers who have supplied pigeons for our national defense. As a reminder, there was also that little event that was called WWII, in which many pigeons died serving our nation. 

If it was your son or daughter, niece or nephew, aunt or uncle, who was over there in the front lines, and biological and chemical attack, was a real possibility, PLEASE tell me, you would want the very best protection, which means one of our dear pigeons !

I love animals, dogs, cats, pigeons, etc. But, I would not trade one of my kids, or one of yours either, in order to save theirs. I guess you could say, I also like humans !!


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Proved a point there. But then all the pigeons most likely survive. that news artical was posted in 2003 and their have not been an biological attacks that i know of.

elvis


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I agree with you COMPLETELY there. I have many family members in the mility (Canadian and Americian). I admit I will never fully understand it because I've never been in a war. But there shouldn't be wars in the first place. I babysit a 3 year old girl and she was asking questions about the Iraq war. You want to know what her response was: "Why don't they just talk it over, like what Mummy and Daddy do?" A 3 YEAR OLD SAID THIS!!! 
I'm proud of the courage and determination these brave people have, but there shouldn't be wars. 
I'm sorry but I don't agree with using the pigeons (or wars on that matter).
This is my own personal opinion. I would gladly hear more view points on this matter.
The innocent are the ones who suffer.
Hilary Dawn


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> As a reminder, there was also that little event that was called WWII, in which many pigeons died serving our nation.


I feel, that comparing WWII to these events is very different for two reasons.

1) The pigeons used during WWII were at least doing something natural to them-homing and flying. They stood a chance at least of surviving and living. This can been seen as heroic or admirable. However, placing pigeons in a cage without them being able to escape only to see whether or not they will die from chemical poisoning, is not heroic, admirable or a dignified death of a pigeon since they were so instrumental in saving lives in that past era.

2) Since there are machines capable of detecting chemicals in the air, they should be used no matter what the cost or inconvenience. These toxic chemicals were created by man so they shouldn't use pigeons as their fail safe means to detect them. Pigeons didn't start wars, and shouldn't be used as pawns in them, especially nowadays.

3) I daren't say my third reason for disagreeing but let's just say it's starts with the letter "Dub-ya"  


P.S. I don't put pigeons lives in front of humans either but in this situation, I do feel that this new "war" shouldn't be happening to begin with. Humans are reaping what they've sown in a sense and animals always have to pay the ultimate price for mans' greedy, and destructive ways.

JMHO and no offence to others,


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I may not be in agreement with the "pecking order" (pun intended) assigned to life forms, but I acknowledge that it does exist. I would prefer no war at all, prefer technology to determine risk over animals, and prefer that the men and women who serve in the military all come home to their families in the same condition that they left. 

I don't like the double standard however, that the pigeons can be invaluable to us in so many military applications, yet here, at home, they can be constantly treated as though there is no redeeming value to their existence. 
fp


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Good post Warren, Some of you are a little to far out there for me , ok more than a little LOL , I gotta admit that some of you scare me a little.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Some very good points FP,

My "little" town of YORK, Pa. which has maybe 60,000 people, has a "war" going on right now. It is called a "War Againest Crime", just this last week, in one day, there were three drive by shootings, which resulted in three deaths. I am glad this "War" is going on, and the police are using police dogs and horses. With all the technology, it seems that dogs and horses are still valuable tools, in protecting us from the criminals. Do I wish everyone would just love one another, and behave themselves, yes. Am I glad that we have armed police patrolling the streets, you bet !

Very good point about the double standard. There are times, I beat my head againest the wall, and ask myself why are towns like Milford, Mass. preparing to kill off pigeons in a very inhumane way ! Then I realized, I am as guilty as anyone. I place a pigeon on one very high level, and then I eat a chicken or turkey for dinner.

In all of recorded history, there always seems to be bad people who turn up, there are the Adolph Hitlers, and the drugs lords killing over turf. Not only animals get injured in the process, but the innocents. I can't change this dangerous world we live in, but I can make a positive impact on one small piece. And, when I rest from the battle going on in my own neighborhood, I retire to my loft. Where I find peace. Perhaps with us all working together, we can bring some "peace" to our bird of peace.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I agree with you COMPELETELY there. Both my neibors are police officers, one of them has a greman shepard (not an offical police dog, but does go to work). I walk her once or twice a month. Horses in most cities are for show, but still play an important role.
The thing that seperates these animals from the use of pigeons is that they can run away from danger. 

As for the chicken and turkey, I'm the same way. But all the meat I eat comes from my uncles' farms and I know the animals are very well taken care of (free-ranged). I'm also illergic to many fruits and vegs. so I don't really have much of a choice (if I wasn't illergic I would never eat meat).

Children today are looking at this war (and other "wars") in different ways then us, who understand it. If not explained correctly they may grow up thinking war is a good thing, and encourage it. Therefore, growth of drung lords, murderers, rapist, etc. It is what we're doing tomorrow, today, right now that influace the growth of our future generation. If we curupt it, we are all doomed. Not just the human race, but all animals, and right down to the last insect.

Some of you who read this maybe thinking: WOW this 17 year old has deep words. My teacher encourage this in me, they actually force me to write essaies about EVERYTHING. I've been in a 3rd world country, I've seen poverty, and everything to goes with it. I lived in it for 2 1/2 weeks!! And let me tell you, you look at things VERY, VERY differently when you get home to a "1st world country." It is very diffuclt to go back to your old way of life. That 3rd world country got that way because of war. It was an absoluty beautiful place (in the upper parts of town) but the war rude its people. 

Well I think I'm talking too much now (I could go on forever about my trip).  
I'd still love to hear anybody who has something to say on this matter (don't be afraid to post  ).

Hilary Dawn

PS- My trip was to Alusta, Ukraine (2 1/2 weeks) and Istanbul, Turkey (2 1/2 days).


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I'm an animal person with no opinion to post here. My cousin just got back from Iraq and whatever it took for him to get back is fine with me. Whether I like it or not I feel I can't judge what they do because I wasn't there.


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## newbie (Feb 25, 2005)

Well said Warren on both posts.

CR


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

People can choose to be soldiers but pigeons don't have that choice, so I don't think its right.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I think its alright but they should be buying that expenisive equipement no matter what. A pigeons life isnt nearly as worth as a humans life. 2 pigeons can be fully grown in 2 months. Humans will be fully grown in 16 years. nevertheless they shouldnt be using pigeons as a way to save money.

Elvis


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Put my vote in, for the people*



mistenle said:


> People can choose to be soldiers but pigeons don't have that choice, so I don't think its right.


 You are entitled to you personal convictions, as is everyone else. The problem I see with your analogy, is I can't think of a single situation, where animals serving man, have been given a choice. Certainly not farm animals, nor those living in zoos. Nor the various birds which are kept in cages, in peoples homes. 

I can't think of a single dog or cat, ( I have four ), whose free will, was given a higher priority, then it's owner. Can you imagine giving a dog a "choice" as to where he relieves himself ? So, if I were to adopt the above logic, any use of any animal, for any means, would not "be right", unless the animal expressed by his own free will, his personal choice ?  

My last two cents on this issue, since I have posted enough on this subject already, the military was supplied pigeons, by people like me. NOT because it was a cheaper alternative to some expensive gadgets. It was because they are superior to any technology available today, anywhere, at any price. 

Feel free to express a different opinion on the matter. I feel confident that the majority of our people here in the US, will do whatever is necessary, to protect our freedom and way of life. Our families paid in sons and daughters, we are certainly willing to pay in pigeons, or anything else if need be. 

I would have thought this issue to be a no brainer. Possibly lose a pigeon, or a few hundred people. I vote for the people.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I come from a family that had many relatives serve our country during war time. I myself served during the Viet Nam war. We are a country at war. I love all my pigeons, and have many years and thousands of dollars tied up in them.
> 
> *But, if sending pigeons to IRAQ, would keep some parents from getting their son or daughter home in a body bag, then so be it.* But, if sending pigeons to IRAQ, would keep some parents from getting their son or daughter home in a body bag, then so be it. Having been there when a brother came home in a body bag, I may have a different perspective.
> 
> ...


I respect and can understand many of the different perspectives that have been offered on this topic, but, maybe because I am the mother of a seventeen year old son, Warren's post strikes a nerve for me personally. While I don't advocate deliberate harm coming to pigeons or other animals for that matter.....I have to say, Warren's post says it all.

JMHO,
Linda


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Warren again I agree 100 0/0 , it's a no brainer. Birds and animals are here to serve mankind. Although I have a few house cats that would probably argue that point. My Lab is just happy to be in the front seat of the truck when I go to work everyday, he's easy to please LOL

Linda for the life of me I can't understand all side's. I can't understand it at all. But many including myself has served so that people can voice opininions even as whacked out as some here.

Eye's Be Gone, you have a lot to learn , you pull peoples will to excel through communisim and socialism and you have what you saw there, poverty. 

God , Country and Family, all else is meaningless !! Semper fi


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Motherlodelofts said:



> Good post Warren, Some of you are a little to far out there for me , ok more than a little LOL , I gotta admit that some of you scare me a little.


Some of US scare Y O U?
You must be a freakin' comedian!

Phyll


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Nothing comical about it at all Phyll !!!!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

Please be reminded that topics such as these can be quite cantankerous and opinionated. Please make sure that your posts don't belittle, offend or personally attack another member or the subject will be closed. We don't learn from insulting or putting others down, but only through mature dialogue.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This link is not about pigeons but about how dogs were used in war in the sixties and what became of them afterwards.

http://www.vspa.com/dab-poss-war-dogs-left-behind-1966.htm

Cynthia


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

cyro51 said:


> This link is not about pigeons but about how dogs were used in war in the sixties and what became of them afterwards.
> 
> http://www.vspa.com/dab-poss-war-dogs-left-behind-1966.htm
> 
> Cynthia


Dear Cynthia,

That link is indeed sad. 

For the tens of thousands of Vietnamese people, who were left behind, and who were killed, or imprisoned, and whose fate will never be known, and who will never get a memorial, that is even more sad.

This link is not about pigeons, or dogs, but about people who were used in the various wars, up to this day, and what became of them afterwards ?

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

*Birds and animals are here to serve mankind.*

I don't think biological warfare is what God had in mind. God created man in his image and gave us free will and we have jacked everything up. We are destroying everything else in the process.
I'll just go to my little piece of heaven in my backyard and clean-up.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Warren, I agree with you. People should not be sacrificed that way either.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> This link is not about pigeons but about how dogs were used in war in the sixties and what became of them afterwards.
> 
> http://www.vspa.com/dab-poss-war-dogs-left-behind-1966.htm
> 
> Cynthia


Hi all,

I read the above link and it did ring true. 

When I worked for the military as a civilian during "peace time", there was one base that had an animal hospital that performed experiments on animals. Those poor animals--the suffering that they went through--the dogs had their vocal chords removed or modified and the pitiful sound that they were able to make afterwards was heart sickening. The rabbits had injections to their ears that caused their ears to shrivel to nothing. 

This doesn't even address the issue of the germ warfare labs where viruses were developed for human application. At regular points in time the Public Works Dept. was instructed to make sure that certain "segments" of the work force not be sent to the facility due to work being conducted in the labs. I personally saw such paperwork. And of course, there were the publicized military experiments w/LSD on unsuspecting enlistees resulting in suicide, viruses that were introduced into public areas to chart results, etc.

It is also hard for me to agree with all of the "reasons" that got us involved in Iraq or our reasons for war in general. The fact that Esso Oil had 100 year contracts on land in Vietnam taints our premise that Democracy was our motivation for being there as does Conoco's presence in Afghanistan (...talk to us "Condy"). Remote controlled wooden airplanes w/two foot wing spans aren't really adequate delivery systems for weapons of mass destruction as was reported to the public before entering Iraq. Maybe Hussein trying to organize the OPEC countries to switch to the "Euro" was!

The fact that there are economic reasons why we choose to disregard life in all of its wonder, is the most difficult for me to accept. Yet, if we fell to our knees economically, it would put not only our way of life at risk, but many other countries who are part of our "economic eco-system". If we at least "Took care of our own" after putting them in harms way, I would feel better. But how we treat the animals after we are through using them for our purposes also spills over to the men and women in the military. Politics and War are dirty business.

Still, I wouldn't want the job of telling parents, that an animal's life was more important than their son or daughter's life. I think a good start would be for us to stop "fudging" the lines spelled out by the Geneva Convention, and to insist on humane treatment of men, women, and animals alike during and after military operations.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

EXCELLENT POST NANCY!

I really agreed with practically everything you mentioned. You are a very compassionate and well balanced person and have seen things many haven't. Thanks for that insight and enlightening us all on your take.


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## Geranyl (May 13, 2004)

I'm not one to comment on the use of the pigeons for this purpose, but overall there is a certain theme to all of this. Despite all of what we may want to believe about caring for animals, when it comes down to utter primitive instinct, we will protect our own first. Philisophically speaking, there is nothing that justifies the rank of **** sapiens as number 1. What makes us better than a pigeon? Is it our ability to express thought? Some say yes. Then again, a pigeon can fly on its own. Maybe that should be the foremost ranking of who is better. Or perhaps we should look at the negatives. We're the only species that is not only self-destructive, but destructive to pretty much every other species on the planet. 

What I'm getting at is that there is no rational reason to believe we are "better" or worth more than any other animal. What it comes down to is the basic primitive protection of our own species. Depsite all we might want to believe about being civilized and somehow evolved, we are still driven by the same biological instincts we were thousands of years ago. 

Unfortunately our selfish drive to propagate our own interests combined with intelligence has led to many negative, and even heinous acts by mankind. I really wish it weren't so.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

In a time of war We use dogs to help in mine fields. and now birds to help in toxic gases. They are basicly soldiers To as for ther part think of the other dogs or birds in that area that would DIE to if there keen sences had not led towards prevention. And most often the birds have been kept safe. The bad deal. is perhaps some day If we do not change this earth may be destroyed For a life to live. And the new threat Is real. but from a people who hold no life value. So its more dangerous. If we can slow it down or perhaps help stop it. The hole world benifits. Lets thank our soldiers for facing our dangers birds as soldiers too. So we do not have to And can still live free and safe


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

I've thought a lot about what's been said here. I've had one cat and two chickens choose to leave their homes and live with me. The other animals could have left. The cats were allowed out [they were taught not to catch birds], the rabbit was allowed out of his cage for exercise. The chickens and pigeons weren't allowed out but some managed to get out but never left. I chose to give them a home and by staying they put their faith in me to keep them as safe as I could. The point I'm trying to make about choice is that some people choose to risk their lives for others,but some don't. Some animals have chosen to risk their lives for others. Maybe some pigeons wouldn't mind risking their lives but maybe some would and until we can know I don't think we have the right to make that choice. That's just my opinion.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Quit feeding them and see how long they stay. They stay only because you are food source, birds and animals are just that,birds and animals. We love them , we care for them . And they give us much enjoyment , and they serve us in many ways, This is one of those ways, the only thing that pigeon knows is that it is getting fed and watered. They don't have the mental capacity to make choices, instinct drive's them just as emotions drive many people. Unfortanatly emotions can easily overide common sence if you let it. There is "no" bird that isn't worth sacraficing to save a human life.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I ask you this then "Motherlodelofts", did my birds just save me just because I feed, water, and give them shelter!!!!???????? If you're not frumilar with the story here it is:
I fainted OUTSIDE in the -35C weather, they flew down, and WOKE me up. THEY SAVED ME!!! 
And here you're saying "They don't have the mental capacity to make choices" direct quote FROM YOU.  HAHAHAHAHA
I only thank God that I took Anger Management Classes.
I ask you this: do you even like pigeons, cause right now it seems to me they're just there for your "enjoyment"?? Do you make friends with your birds? Get to know there individual *Personalities*?!? 
I get along A LOT better with animals then people, so I befriend all types of animals. They are my friends and we find enjoyment from bieng TOGETHER.
I'm not sending any of my beloved birds or animals to some stupid war!!
And there's my opinion.
Hilary Dawn


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

All I will say on this Hilary is   You're a FANTASTIC representative of this board for such a young person. Your open mindedness and compassion for all living things is something that that many will never truly appreciate nor understand. Keep doing what you're doing, you've got us all beat!


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Thank you Brad,
I have alway had to fight for what I believed in.
I grew up with 10 boys on my neiborhood and my sister was the only other girl with me.
Those boys (even today) verbal, physical, mentally, and at one point even sexually abused me. So I'm not the type who well let ANYONE walk over me!!
My family call me a brick wall when I believe in something fermly. 
Now, in grade 11, I taught all the guys that they can't take advantage of me anymore. I don't put up with a lot, thus the anger management. Not too pround of it, but at least I admited of having a problem and is doing something to change it, unlike some people I know in my school.
I get teassed a lot about having pigeons, but I don't care, I love them and they are my close friends.
But enough about me, I'm here to help these birds survive a terrible death.
Hilary Dawn


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Hilary, 

Wow, thanks for that insight. I work with many "newfies" at the hotel I am employed at. I know "newfies" are Newfoundlanders, but we refer to all easterners as "Newfies" out here  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, holds the uppermost morals, values and each has the most down-to-earth way of being about them. I suspect you will be the same. As a fellow Canadian, I respect you, your beliefs and hardships in life. It's very different out on the east coast, than here in middle Canada in the bigger cities. Again, DON"T STOP believing, hold onto your ways and you will always be the better person for it. You hold a high rank here on the board and I know that many feel the same as I do. 

Best wishes for you and your new babies,


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> You hold a high rank here on the board and I know that many feel the same as I do.


True.

Cynthia


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Good luck with your future Hilary and I hope that you have a bright one.
Scott


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Thank you very much guys, even you Motherlodelofts.
That lefts my spirits a lot. 
I have a VERY good relationship with my father. He treats me with a lot of respect, so I autimaticly believe all men should do the same. That's why I'm so different from other girls. My mother taught me right from wrong very well. Therefore my moral for VERY high. The guys at school are acctualy intimadated by me. Due to my high morals, I repeat this everyday to myself: NO guy is will ever touch me in a sexual way until he has that wedding ring in my left hand.
People at school say I will probrably be the only one who will marry for love and not money.
Newfies are very funny people. Here in New Brunswick we have a few. And besides I am part Newf.  
Thanks a lot guys your word DO mean a lot to me.  
Hilary Dawn


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

The cat who chose to live with us stayed on our porch for 2 weeks and we didn't bring him into our house until we found out he'd been abused. So it wasn't about food. The chickens were given a safe place to be at night because of racoons and we didn't give them a home right away either. The one chicken taught us to open the living room window so he could come in the house for bed. Having cats most of my life I know they think, feel and learn and the birds were no different. Where you see instinctual creatures I see sentient beings whose lives should be respected. Just as I respect your right to have a different opinion.

Hillary Dawn you give me hope. Thank you.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Beam me now up Scotty !!!!!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*An opinion*

So, we are supposed to post our opinions here? Well, my dad was a First Sergeant in WW2, I am an Army veteran as is my son.My youngest daughter is a US Marine Reservist and her unit plans on deploying to Iraq in June.I too am an animal lover and am very fond of my pigeon,but as a free American I have to agree with Warren on this issue.I enjoy the right to post this opinion.I enjoy the right to purchase seeds to feed the birds and squirrels.I enjoy the right to have a dog and a cat.Most of all I enjoy being a free American.The young person who started this thread posted an opinion and shared a link, and then asked us to post an "OPINION." As the opinions are shared I see some frustrated people both young and older putting one another down for it.This is wrong and inapropriate to put one another down for sharing ones opinion.It is obvious that we all here are animal lovers particularly pigeons, so we can all agree on that, right? We can honor and respect the animals that made sacrifices for us and must remember that sometimes animals can accomplish things that humans cannot.Someone earlier here said that pigeons didn't have a choice.Let us remember that the young men during the Vietnam era also did NOT have a choice.Please let us all get along and agree to watch the pigeon movie coming up entitled "VALIANT".


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Hilary ~ Thank you for sharing your story. Your strength of character & courage to voice your opinion is impressive. 
Anyone who has ever loved an animal, is keenly aware of that very special bond. Without a doubt, they will tell you that their creatures (birds included, Scott) do possess the mental capacity to make choices. Your personal experience proved that!
As you do, Hilary, I love animals. You spoke up to defend them, which is not the popular thing to do. Thank you for taking a stand; I understand & appreciate your passion. The world would be a better place if there were more people like you. 
May God bless you & all of your creatures!

Scott ~ Hilary hit the nail right on the head when she asked if you even liked pigeons! It seems you have never experienced the LOVE & LOYALTY of any creature.
If you had, you would not have responded to "mistenle" in that manner.
You probably never saw the documentary about the wonderful dog who refused to leave his friend, even though parted by death. That blessed creature stayed on the man's grave for most of the days & through the nights for the rest of his life.
No longer was his friend able to feed or care for him in any way, yet, he stayed. 
Saying that "mistenle's" animals stayed ONLY because she was a food source, revealed your "kind-heartedness" even further.
I hope Scotty does beam you up! And I hope he makes it SOON!

Vdog ~ Not everyone on this forum is an animal LOVER. That would be absolutely wonderful, but, unfortunately, is not the case. When you LOVE animals, you protect them, no matter what!
If you like, take a few hours to read past threads.
Some treat their pigeons as "game pieces." 
That is NOT love!

Moderators ~ Please take note of my control. Now I gotta go take Nexium for my acid! 

Phyll


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

vdog505 said:


> The young person who started this thread posted an opinion and shared a link, and then asked us to post an "OPINION." As the opinions are shared I see some frustrated people both young and older putting one another down for it.This is wrong and inapropriate to put one another down for sharing ones opinion.It is obvious that we all here are animal lovers particularly pigeons, so we can all agree on that, right? .


 Thankyou, Vdog, good point. This has become an emotionally charged subject for many of us. Please everyone, review your "people skills". What set's this site apart from other sites, and makes "Pigeon Talk" special, is that respect and courtesy is required of all posters.


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## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> I ask you this then "Motherlodelofts", did my birds just save me just because I feed, water, and give them shelter!!!!???????? If you're not frumilar with the story here it is:
> I fainted OUTSIDE in the -35C weather, they flew down, and WOKE me up. THEY SAVED ME!!!
> And here you're saying "They don't have the mental capacity to make choices" direct quote FROM YOU.  HAHAHAHAHA
> I only thank God that I took Anger Management Classes.
> ...


 calm down EVERYBODY YOU KNOW i posted this up so that you know.hailary,motherlodesloft may have posted up something that offended you.well 
we all have different opinionns and topics.AND IT IS NOT FOR YOU GUYS TO FIGHT OVER
i sent a letter to bigbird informing her of such behavior.as for me sorry for the offending post.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I do think motherloads was refureing to the pigeons mental capacity in war time actions. The animals birds are led into war by man. And war is a thing that costs many lifes. If lives can be spared by useing animals or birds. then the birds and animals become drafted soldiers of the war action. Motherloads raises and has raised pigeons for awhile. As I do. I do not make pets out of them . I know my birds and see when something is not right with them. When you keep larger numbers of any thing you know what you have take good care of what it may be. The people with a few birds may be some what closer to them as pets. But it does not mean they are better cared for. Or better understood. People will object to war use. BUT will that person go fight to save lifes. And animals even birds get attached to humans just as humans attach there self to otrhers that show care and support. We are all one world And the human role is strong but abused in action. Very few take part with nature. most destroy nature. Raiseing and breeding pigeons as a hobby such as motherloads does keeps a sport going and educates the future keepers of a breed. Much learning goes into the raiseing and keeping of pigeons. And pigeons of different breeds have grown very depended on man. the love of a bred shows that if you raise keep or enjoy you care. No one keeps them for just nothing. And I am glad that a young person stands up for what they believe. BUT elders are the teachers of all man kind. living history of the past. so the future goes forward. Sometimes we look at words and add mental thoughts to them that mean nothing. Far from what they were meant to say. To quick to add judgement rather then to study the different concepts of meaning. Bringing out of text actions to misunderstood moments. I say this site is a shared site of learning. shareing And bringing together .One main goal. PIGEONS and that covers all pigeons. The people that care for the feral to show, race, or a sick or injured bird are all in it together. Because they care and enjoy the pigeon. But in war we make sacrifices good or bad right or wrong. And the pigeon thru the years has been used in war time saving many lifes. The silent hero.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Here in Canada we have a chennel called the "Life Newtwork."
It has a show I just LOVE!! It's called "Animal Miricals."
They show stories of how birds, dog, cats, horses, even a pot belly pig save their owners from thiefs, muderers, fires, stroms, EVERYTHING. But I now one that really touched my heart:
There was a truck driver that found a little kitten under his truck at a gas station full of desile oil. They named him Desile Kitty. One day at a pit stop the cat did what it usually did and that was to explore some of the area. When the owner came back the cat wasn't there, he went looking for DK but couldn't find him. Now with truck driver they have to be at their unloading area at a certian time or they loose money (my dad's a truck driver). Unfotunatly he had to leave the cat there, but when he came back he still couldn't find the cat. He and his wife continued to look for months at each pitstop they went to. One day when they got home after a long trip the Cat was waiting for them on the front step!!!! Moewing and perring.  

I have many family members in the military (Canadian and American). I would love for them to come home safe and sound. But they always tell me if they are hurt they never wanted to see me cry. They say if they die in action it was the way they wanted to go out, dieng for their country, it was their choise they say. My father was in the Mulisha (sp  ) as a sniper and he left when he met my mother cause he didn't want to leave his family. 
I am very pround of our troops over there (and around the world in other place we don't here about). But to me it was their choise to go, I do still feel very sad when some one was hurt or killed. {bow my head and say a prayer for their soul and their family that still live} I still think they shouldn't be over there tho.

I too like my freedoms and rights to choise my friends and what I wear, but I don't get them confused with my responsiblilties to my family, friends, and animals I love.

Hilary Dawn


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## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

*Opinions...*

Wow this is really interesting actually, lol.  I think we should all just agree to dis-agree, I'm not even going to post my opinion. LOL. This is heated...


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

If I have offended anyone I apologize. I have taken no offence by anything said here. I think discussions like this,however heated they may be are important because they let us see the differences in people and help us to become more accepting and openminded while retaining our own individuality. If all we ever hear is our own opinion we learn nothing.

Pigeons are people too.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Mistenle,
Why would anyone be offended? You value the lives of animals & voiced your opinion.
Good for you!

Phyll


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I've aways like a good disscusion that had two different sides. Cause no matter who the reader is you always learn something new about the topic and how your [so-called] "opponent" thinks.
I've been thinking about joining the debating club at school, my friends say I'd be good at it.  
Anyway I have like "3-4" UNIT TESTS tomorrow (Math, Modern History, Biology, and Chemistry12)  ALL my hard courses OMG!!! It's a consperisy!!  
Hilary Dawn


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hilary Dawn,

I have been reading your posts and I am very, very proud of you. You know who you are and what you want at a very tender age, and believe me, that is a rare gift. You will be just fine.
I like to debate too! In order to debate successfully, you have to be able to argue the point or topic that has been assigned to you, whether you agree with it or not! That is not always easy.....but if you are able to do that, then you have many careers open to you, such as mediator, diplomat or lawyer. Good luck on you tests at school...I am sure you will do a great job.

Linda


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Thanks Lin,
I think I get it from all the books I read. Everything from little short novels to the realy thick ones. David Edding, Kritian Britian, Sasha Lord, Jonnha Campbell and Tolkien!! Thoroughbed Series and Lord of the Rings are my FAVORITE!! I love to read, each one has a different plot and hidden message that you have to find out. I was just at the book store today and bought alittle book about "Finding Our Selves, Insights for Young Women" it has A LOT of meaningful quotes. "There are no mistakes in life, only lessons to learn from." and "The better you feel about yourself, the fewer limits you will place on your ability to love." There are SO many!!   I'm going to have to place a quote a week on my signature for you all.
I have a friend in the club and she had to debate beating your child to disaplin, she was devastated. She never believe in violence, but she pulled it off and brought home a metal!! My mother has taught me to think ever situation thought to the fullest before I make a decission. I have alwas been able to see both side to each situation, even at a young age. I don't talk a lot, I'm actually very shy, but with the writen work I'm more free. Even tho I'm shy with the spoken word I'm not afraid to stand up to people and protect others and myself (that's how I get in trouble  ). 
Anywany I better get a line up of quotes for you guys to read.
Talk to you all later.
Hilary Dawn

PS- If anyone as any specific questions for me just ask.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hilary Dawn,

It is good that you like to read....reading is a very valuable learning tool....not only do you gain knowledge, but by reading you learn spelling and grammar. Also, by reading well written books and articles, you naturally learn how to write properly! Even if you do not know the "technical" rules of writing, just by immersing yourself in well written stories, you will learn to recognize and reproduce good writing. Keep up the good work! 
Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hilary Dawn,

I must say also .. kudos to you! I am 56 years of age and was told at a very tender age that most knowledge was available in the written word and that I should become a very good reader .. It was good advice! 

I grew up in the age when women were supposed to stay home and raise kids .. though I was taught how to cook, sew, clean, and all those other "good" things, I was also taught to use my brain and learn everything I could and to try to "better myself from my parents" .. I had nothing to be ashamed of in my parents .. my Mom was a marvelously intelligent and talented woman who "went to war" in WWII as an airplane mechanic in Panama .. she met my Dad there who was a sargeant in what was then the Army Air Corps. He literally got his "butt" shot off and they came home to Kansas with some rescued cats from Panama .. I still have the photos . 

My Mom died several years ago, and my Dad came to live with me .. he is now
89 years young .. goes on all my rescues with me and also helps me take care of the crew here at home.

Know what .. we still read .. Dad and Me .. I just buy 'em and read 'em and
pass 'em on to Dad.

Hilary .. you got it going girl, Keep It Up!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi PigeonSitter10,


Interesting...

People being people, the Soldiers will become attatched to and affectionate to their Mascot-Guardian-Signalers, and should any of these Pigeons succumb to some nerve agent or gas or other, the Soldiers likely will feel personal grief and remourse about it.

Whomever the appointed handlers are, they especially will be learning about their charges, as will their friends and comrades listening to them talking about what they are learning...and likely it will initiate an interest in Pigeons and a fondness for them which will continue after the War for these fellows. Allways this was so when Pigeons were used for conveying massages in previous Wars. Respect and affection arose from the association.

I hope they remember to let these Birds have nice Grit also, and some leafy Greens now and then, as well as Seeds...hopefully there will be a short 'Manual of Care' which will have sound information from some Pigeon experts...as for how to care for them...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Innteresting site about Pigeons in the Military...

http://home2.planetinternet.be/rice1/military.htm

Phil


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Lin~ It's true what you said about the proper usage of words. I use in English class all the time (but for some odd reason I can't spell all that well  ). I don't know the names of all the different "formations & formats," but as long as I write what I'm asked and get a good grade, I don't care about the names.  For me it's automatic, I get an idea and write. My teachers tested me and I wrote a 600-700 word damand essay in 1 1/2 hours  and I got an A.
Terry~ Sorry for your mother passing. My mother tried to teach me how to cook, but...... it didn't work. I burn thing, undercook, and caught things on fire.  Sewing I'm not that bad and cleaning, I'm good at that!! 

School is improtant to me. It maybe boring and tiring at times, but it is the thing you need the most to get somewhere in life. I get very frustrated by people who abuse this gift that is given to us children for free education. But I can't control the way people act. They'll get what's coming to them in the end, I guess.
I LOVE TO READ!!! 
Anyway, I'll talk to you all later.
Hilary Dawn


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