# found a pigeon upside down in the road



## james_1980 (Dec 26, 2009)

Dear all,

Some people might remember me from about 6 months ago, when I had a suspected PMV pigeon living with me (passed away after 6 weeks with us).

This evening I was driving through my town (Hitchin, Herts UK) when I noticed a pigeon in the middle of the road upside down, legs in the air flapping around. I stopped my car in the middle of the road. I actually thought that all I could do would be to put it out of its misery, but as I was trying to inspect her I put her on her feet and she started walking (but didn't look right). I got a box and brought her back here.

Bad pic at http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...0211151675191_602815190_13483154_445274_n.jpg

I think she has a broken wing. I can't see anything bleeding. She's currently in my outbuilding wrapped in a blanket.

A question for here is do I take her to a vet. I ask this because I recall from previous threads here thar trhat they often do the simplest thing rather than provide care.

Any suggestions. Or any questions I need to answer? She has birdseed and water.

I intend to look after Penelope myself (just as I did with Percy six months ago) but I'm not 100% sure what she needs.

Thanks
James


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi James,

Welcome back ,

Obviously as it's a Woodie she won't be that easy to investigate but have you had a look through her plumage to see if there is any hidden injury.

I wonder if she's been hit by a car as she was in the road when you found her. They are always taking off low and often get clipped by cars.

Is that blood on on her back in the photo?

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

James it's me again,

I've just been thinking more about this. Vets will treat them sometimes if you make them aware that you will take on their care, If it is she has a broken wing and it's possible to have it strapped up then there's always a possibility she can make a good recovery. It's worth phoning your local vet before taking her to ask that question. If they say you will have to leave her with them to decide then don't take her.

What you need to do is gently feel along the suspect wing to see if there's any obvious break. You can tell sometimes by doing the same with the good wing and comparing them. Run your finger along each bone and if there's a break you can usually feel it bending.

Janet


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi James

Well found! As Janet says, a glancing hit from a car could do it. Can't advise on breakages, but if you check with a vet and explain that you wish to help Penelope recuperate and ask if she could be examined given that condition, they can either say yes or no. *Some* branches of Companion Care are helpful if they have a vet who is reasonably knowledgeable about birds, but again you'd need to call and discuss. Not one in Hitchin, though - nearest would be Dunstable or Harlow by the look of it.

If you do decide a wildlife facility may be better after all, you could try:

The Ark Wildlife Hospital
43 St Crispin Road
Milton Keynes
Buckinghamshire
NK13 7BS
07702 342415

though I realize it's a bit of a trek.

She may be better on something like a heat pad or well wrapped hot water bottle for a little while and rather than plain water, maybe you could provide just-warm with some salt and glucose, honey or sugar - 1 pt water with 1/2 teaspoon salt and 1/2 tablespoon of whichever of the other you have. Both may just help a little in case she has any shock.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You are not far from *Bedfordshire Wildlife Rescue* in Houghton Regis. Sam, who runs it, is one of our members, wildlife-rescue on this forum. Why don't you have a word with her? You can PM her from the forum or telephone the centre: 07890 973050

Just a warning, woodies get stressed very easily and can die of a heart attack, so if she starts to open her mouth while you are handling her, stop immediately and put her somewhere quiet.

Cynthia


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## james_1980 (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks guys. My local vet (three doors along) were good with Percy, so I'll call them when they open first of all.

I'll update back here when I have some news.

Thanks


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## james_1980 (Dec 26, 2009)

First of all, Penelope survived the night.

My local vet were honest on the telephone, and said that if there was any broken bones etc that they usually put wildlife down.

I called the place in Houghton Regis and got an answerphone message saying they were very full at the moment, and to call a couple of other options. Again, I can sympathise and understand this point of view.

The lady in Milton Keynes answered, and I said I'd possibly call her back this afternoon (she didn't realise that I was an hour away, and said could I bring her in the next 10 minutes).

My question for this forum is can I try to do something with her wing myself, or would it be kinder to let my vet put it out of its misery (I realise that even considering this will cause offence to others on here, but I'm just trying to be sensible).

Obviously given the ease at which he goes upside down I can't release him - note that this is why he is in a small narrow box.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Don't let the vet "put her out of her misery". Many pigeons with wing injuries recover well, those that don't can settle in captivity...there are places they can go.

Please hold on a bit, I will comntact Sam, they may not have room for another at the moment but she might have a look at Penelope for you.


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## wildlife-rescue (Nov 28, 2008)

Hi, if you are able to bring the pigeon over to me in Houghton Regis, I will take a look at the bird and see if the wing can be fixed. You will need to sign the bird over though and if the wing is not fixable (ie close to a joint), you should know that it will be euthanased.

I don't euthanase feral pigeons with permanent disabilities as they are happy to live in captivity but wood pigeons do not settle down in my opinion and are utterly miserable when kept in captivity, particularly if they have been a free flying bird previously (ie an adult).

If you want me to take a look, feel free to leave me a message on 07890 973050 (it does say we are full as we are absolutely inundated with RSPCA casualties at the moment, but I will call you back).


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I don't euthanase feral pigeons with permanent disabilities as they are happy to live in captivity but wood pigeons do not settle down in my opinion and are utterly miserable when kept in captivity, particularly if they have been a free flying bird previously (ie an adult).


That is a shame. 

Dagwood is a woodie that was rehomed with us some years ago by a wildlife rescue centre because he was unreleasable, he was an adult woodie with a broken wing and couldn't fly. He is settled and happy, has a mate, nest, eggs, eats well, wanders about, enjoys a bath ...basically I believe that he has settled in as well as any of the ferals. I think that sharing the aviary with feral pigeons, who don't panic whenever anybody walks by the aviary, has made him calmer and able to adapt.


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## wildlife-rescue (Nov 28, 2008)

My opinion is borne from interraction with hundreds of wood pigeons over the years Cynthia and is shared by most if not all reputable wildlife rehabilitators in the UK. Given that most of us have given up our time, money and lives to care for the animals that we take in, it is not a decision that has been made for any other reason than the long term welfare of the birds in question after seeing that they do not adapt as a general rule. 

The person with this bird is free to take it wherever he chooses, but I know that the decent rehabbers in this area (Beds, Herts and Bucks) who include myself, Stevenage Wildlife Welfare and St Tiggywinkles will euthanase a wood pigeon with a fracture close to a joint because the joint will fuse and the bird will never fly again, is extremely highly strung and is not suited to a life in captivity.

I realise that many people on this forum do not share my opinion and will keep a bird alive at any cost, even to the detriment of the bird IMO. Sometimes, it is necessary to euthanase animals that cannot be released where the alternative is a life in captivity to which they are not adapted. At our facility this rule applies to wood pigeons and to sparrowhawks, both of which have been studied and found to particularly dislike confinement. Feral pigeons who are a partially domesticated species have no problem adapting and we continue to rehome if they are not releasable.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

So do the wildlife facilities in your area take the view that I've heard around, that if a woodie is unlikely to be releasable within a given time (like 6 weeks) it would be PTS? 

What is the view on Collared Doves - would a disabled dove be rehomed if a safe environment would be provided?

John


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## bluegirl (Jul 7, 2010)

I found a collared dove a couple of years back that had been attacked by a bird of prey. She initially looked ok and after a quick vet visit they suggested I keep her for a couple of days then release her. Unfortunately when I tried to let her fly off all she could do was back flip over and over and so I kept her. I already had an aviary and she was put in there. She was a little nervous at first of the budgies and they of her but they soon settled down. I had her for about 2.5 years until she became ill and died but in that time she was settled and seemed happy and even had a budgie boyfriend who stayed with her all the time. I have no other experience of captive collared doves but I do know mine seemed to accept captivity well.

I have also had 2 injured wood pigeons, one that just seemed to need a couple of weeks TLC and some good meals and one that I have presently that can't fly. I noticed that once the thin one had built up strength it seemed to want to go, but the one that can't fly, just like my collared dove seems content to be captive.


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## wildlife-rescue (Nov 28, 2008)

John_D said:


> So do the wildlife facilities in your area take the view that I've heard around, that if a woodie is unlikely to be releasable within a given time (like 6 weeks) it would be PTS?
> 
> What is the view on Collared Doves - would a disabled dove be rehomed if a safe environment would be provided?
> 
> John


I personally would perservere with a woody that needed a moult or regrowth depending on how the individual bird coped. I have one at the moment that has to regrow feathers on one wing but sadly every time we go in to clean him out, he flies at the bars and just breaks more of them.

Collared Doves are not as bad as Wood Pigeons and if it is a youngish bird we may see how he copes but an adult that has lived a free flying existence with a mate (they mate for life) will not be happy being taken from that life and confined in my honest opinion.


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## james_1980 (Dec 26, 2009)

wildlife-rescue said:


> I realise that many people on this forum do not share my opinion and will keep a bird alive at any cost, even to the detriment of the bird IMO. Sometimes, it is necessary to euthanase animals that cannot be released where the alternative is a life in captivity to which they are not adapted. At our facility this rule applies to wood pigeons and to sparrowhawks


To be fair, I can see logic in your post. I'm sure that as an animal lover you do not euthanise where there is any other alternative, but I can see that (with Penelope) it would be the best thing.

I say would, as I just went out to check on her, and she had passed away.

I agree about their temprament. She would not let me touch her, and even flapped when I tried to put food near her. For these reasons, I was unable to examine her to find broken bones etc.

Totally different to the previous pigeon, Percy.

Now a practical question. I took Percy to be cremated as he was with us for six weeks and we had bonded. I don't have the same bond with Penelope. Could I have some suggestions of how to deal with her remains please. Sorry if this last bit sounds a little cold and clinical.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I don't consider that cold and clinical at all, you did what you could for her when she was alive and Penelope is flying free now.

If there are woods, or tree belts near you could lay her discarded body down with dignity and cover her lightly with twigs. The foxes will find her and to my mind that is more dignified and useful to leaving the body to decompose slowly and be eaten by insects.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> My opinion is borne from interraction with hundreds of wood pigeons over the years Cynthia and is shared by most if not all reputable wildlife rehabilitators in the UK. Given that most of us have given up our time, money and lives to care for the animals that we take in, it is not a decision that has been made for any other reason than the long term welfare of the birds in question after seeing that *they do not adapt as a general rule*


That (the highlighted part) is the bit that worries me. Les Stocker (founder of St Tiggywinkles) says "The criteria for euthanasia in clear cut cases are....disabled wood pigeons, wood pigeons *never* adapt to captivity".

My experience shows this "absolute" to be incorrect. I have never claimed to be a rehabber, I classify myself a rescuer and take pigeons that need rehab to Wing and a Prayer. Perhaps that is why I have seen wood pigeons display normal behaviour (choosing a mate, building a nest, sitting on eggs) in captivity. I have more time to give an individual bird, and to adapt their surroundings to their needs. 

For instance, if they are kept in a small flight pen with only other wild woodies and nowhere to hide, the ones that arrive as adults will sometimes batter themselves against the wire and harm themselves when someone goes in to clean. But in a very long aviary, with "furniture" such as conifers that offers them shelter they quietly move into another part of the aviary if they feel that a person too close to them. As only the two of us ever go into the aviary (I think a stranger would panic them) they learn from their own exprience and from the reaction of the other birds that we are not a threat.

I know that rehab centres can't keep all disabled woodies and can't rehome them because the ideal conditions aren't usually available. I can't offer a home to more unreleasable wood pigeons because I don't have the space to keep them in a stress free environment, so it is inevitable that some will get euthanased. But I don't think it is fair to the woodie or the person that has rescued him to make a general judgement that all disabled woodies must be euthanased which could lead them to believe that any other solutions is cruel. 

As Les Stocker also says (and this time I agree): "Animals don't have much. The one thing they have is 'life' and they will fight tooth and claw to preserve that one thing. If we are caring for the animals then *it is our duty to give each patient the chance to keep that 'life'.*


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## wildlife-rescue (Nov 28, 2008)

So if you can't take them all, we can't take them all, there are hardly any other people (in fact none that I know of) that can take them, but we shouldn't euthanase any of them, what exactly is your solution?? 

It's very easy to make a judgment when you're not the one faced with what to do with the animal isn't it. I have the feeling that if we diverted all of our wood pigeon calls to you, your opinion would soon change when you had to decide what to do with 20 different birds with irrepairable broken wings???

Les does indeed make the quote about animals having "only their life" in most of his publications and yet he still takes the view (with almost 30 years experience) that disabled wood pigeons are not suited to captivity.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You have obviously misunderstood me and taken offence for which I am sorry.

I am well aware that with so many birds coming in wildlife rehabbers have to dedicate their resources to the ones that are going to be releasable and I have made no judgement on that. 

What I have *tried* to say is that *if* a wood pigeon can be given a chance to adapt to captivity then he should be given that chance, because despite what Les Stocker and other reputable wildlife rehabbers say there are people on this forum that have unreleasable wood pigeons and the pigeons have adapted well to captivity, demonstrating this by their behaviour : courting, nest building, sitting on eggs etc. 

That is all I am going to say on the subject.


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