# Help -- Baby Pigeon Won't Open Its Mouth



## CaroleLee

Hello,

I'm new here. A baby pigeon was blown onto our balcony during high winds yesterday. I'm trying to feed it but it won't open its mouth. When I force its mouth open it struggles hard and I'm afraid of hurting it. Last night I found a recipe on the internet for baby pigeon food: chicken baby food plus a little plain yogurt, egg yolk, and tiny drop of oil. Baby pigeon doesn't like it but I managed to get some down it. I was surprised when it was still alive this morning. I gave it more food but it was a real struggle. Someone at work suggested that perhaps it doesn't like the flavor of the food so at lunchtime I soaked a wholemeal biscuit in warm water and gave it some of that. Same thing -- awful struggle to get the beak open but eventually some went down.

I have questions:
How can I persuade the bird to open its mouth?
Do they all struggle?
Which part is the crop? Is it the small pouch directly under the chin or is it all of that flabby skin between the beak and the chest? (in order to make sure the crop is 3/4 full, I need to know exactly which part the crop is.)
Do I need to give extra water (I made the food runny)
If so, should the water be warm or room temperature?

I looked at the pictures on your website and think that "my" pigeon is 9 or 10 days old.

Hoping to hear from an expert soon.

Carole


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## Skyeking

Hello and welcome to Pigeons.com

Thank you for helping this youngster who was blown to your door.

You are doing fine, as the babies aren't going to open their beak for you, their mother usually puts their beak inside of hers and regurgitates food to the baby. You can gently rub the beak and put a little food on the beak to generate interest. Yes, all babies struggle to eat, as we humans feed them different then mom and dad.

If the baby is nine days old, it will require alot of food, as it is in a growth spurt. The crop will lay down in front of it,like a tummy when it is full, when baby is in sitting position.

Can you buy some Kaytee Exact baby bird formula? You can get it from a local pet store in your area. It has all the nutrients needed for growth and development. It will give you instructions on how much water to add.

If you go into the daily forum on this web and into resources section that will have various topics on feeding methods for youngsters this age and how to use tube feeder and syringe. Some people use a tube feeder, I have used a syringe to feed baby pigeons this age. You can also cut the tip of a baby bottle nipple and let the baby poke his beak into it and load up on the formula in the bottle. 

Others will be along with more information.

Treesa


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## Reti

Hi Carole,

thank you for rescuing this sweet baby pigeons.

He probably is scared of whatever happened to him and yes, most pigeons do struggle when handled. It will need some time for him to realize how lucky he was to land on your balcony and be in your care.

After feeding you should feel the flabby skin above the chest (keel bone)inflate.

If the food is runny, he won't need extra water, but I would suggest to start increasing the consistency of the food.
Also it would be better for him if you purchase from the pet store baby bird formula. One of them is Kaytee Exact, it works pretty well for baby pigeons.
What you fed him is ok if nothing else is available.

You can give some extra water if you think he needs it, but it's not necessary when they are on formula.
The formula should be slightly warm, water can be room temperature.

Good luck with this little one

Reti


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## Jiggs

Hi CA

Don't give up someone will be along shortly to assist you with more experiance than myself but let me share what I know so long maybe it will help. You can start buy using the search option (above) to find other threads about feeding baby pigeons

There are also pictures on this site (or links) showing a full and empty crop. Use the search above

I had to feed my chick at 10 days and it ate itself till mom and dad were fetched. I used the syringe with a cloth over the end method that I found here on this site. pb Bison reccomends a baby's bottle nipple and dip the chicks beak into it.

Water needs to be mixed in with the food as they do not drink and would need it to be in their food as mom and dad would give it water with the food.

I hope this helps and do not stop asking questions if you need help as someone always does help here. If you can supply a picture or at least the species of dove/pigeon as that will help other people give advice on the food mix!

EDITED - I see we were all replying at the same time so there you now have some more info - please keep us informed of progress as it is always exiting to know how things are going


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## CaroleLee

*Thanks for the great advice*

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone. I didn't expect any replies so soon!

No, I can't get the Kaytee stuff because I live in
Saudi Arabia and there are no pet shops here.

Treesa said that the baby bird needs a lot of food at this age -- could you
please give me some kind of rough guide to how much
that might be per meal? I'm feeding him four times a
day.

It's difficult dealing with something so small and
fragile. I hope it doesn't die.

Carole


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## Skyeking

Hello, and thank you for being so caring for this baby.

If the baby is 9 to 10 days, it should be eating about 15 ml's or cc's at a sitting, 4 times per day, at 2 weeks of age it would eat 20cc's or ml's.

Continue with the baby food and egg for now, and tiny bit of yogurt for now.

Treesa


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## John_D

Hi Carole,

They can be squirmy little birds 

No guarantees, but one method of feeding a baby pigeon or dove which has been quite successful is the 'syringe method'. It simulates how pigeons feed the young, i.e. taking the baby's beak into their own rather than baby gaping like most birds.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pidgie/syringe_method.htm

One of the pics shows more or less where the crop is. In the 2nd pic of finger pointing to crop, you can see the difference after he was fed. Just needs to be squidgy full rather than hard.

If you can get him to take formula, he will not need any extra water. Kaytee Exact for all baby birds is what we tend to use. We get it from Pets-at-home (or Petsmart - depends what it's called where you are)

Baby needs a quiet, warm place - maybe with something soft to lie on. 

Cheers

John (UK)


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## CaroleLee

*Crop photos*

Thanks Treesa for the quantities. I will make sure he eats 15 ml tonight.

do you know how I can find the photos of full/empty crops that Jiggs mentioned? I tried using "search" but couldn't find them.

Carole


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## Jiggs

Just hold on I will post a pic here, I just need to go and find it.
There is also another lady from Saudi that is a member here, I will find her name and you can e-mail her as she should have some help there in terms of foodstuffs in Saudi etc


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## Skyeking

Here are some baby pigeon threads to click onto:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9918

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9500

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

Treesa


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## Lin Hansen

Welcome CaroleLee,

I copied and pasted from a previous thread for this...this was information provided by our moderator Mary, to show the difference between a full crop and an empty crop.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"And here you see the crop of the pigeon on the right is empty and on the left his sibling just got fed and notice the full crop! "
http://community.webshots.com/photo...147164212pyMJMc 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, here is a link you can click on which gives instructions and day by day amounts to feed baby pigeons:
http://www.internationaldovesociety...feedinghelp.htm 

The second link is located in our Pigeon Daily forum, under Resources...there are many other useful threads you may want to check out in that section.

Good luck and thanks for helping this baby.

Linda


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## Jiggs

I finally found the web page I used as reference it has GREAT pics of the feeding of a chick as well as full and empty crops

Thank you Cynthia Roberts, I am sure it will help Carol Ann as well.

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm

There is a member here who lives in Saudi - melissasue1968 - go to her profile and possibly youcan e-mail her and she can help you out with pigeon food there as it seems a plan has to be made there as you cannot buy in shops


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## melissasue1968

*Hi! I'm in Saudi too!*

Hi Carole! I was trying to send you a private message, but it was too long  !!! So I e-mailed it to you! I hope everything is going well with the baby! Keep us posted!
Yours, Melissa


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## melissasue1968

That's an excellent link Jiggs! It really helps to make it clear seeing the pictures. Check out that link Jiggs posted Carole! It's great!
Melissa


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## Feefo

> Thank you Cynthia Roberts, I am sure it will help Carol Ann as well.



LOL, I didn't even know that was there but they have made a really good job of it. Much better than my webshots.

Cynthia


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## CaroleLee

*Good morning -- baby bird update*

Good morning everyone,

Thank you all so much for the good advice. I was astounded at how quickly your replies came in. What a great little community you have here -- I’m so glad that I found you!

Special thanks to Treesa for the information on quantities to feed and also for the great links. Thanks for the photo links Linda -- I couldn’t open the webshots page and the International Dove Society site is firewalled by our company (!). Melissa who also lives here in Saudi has been in touch so I now have a local contact. Phil has offered to send info about his feeding method so I’m looking forward to seeing that. And a zillion thanks to John in the UK who told me about his syringe method. I tried it last night and this morning (using a small jar ‘cause I don’t have a big syringe) and had some success -- it was much easier than trying to wrestle the little bird's beak open. The links to Cynthia Roberts excellent photos were extremely helpful too.

This morning he seemed very bright and chirpy and flapped his wings when I fed him so now I am cautiously optimistic that he might survive.

You’ve all been so good already but unfortunately I have more questions:

At his age (12 days?) what consistency should the feed be? Like tomato ketchup? Thicker? Thinner?

Cynthia’s information says that the crop must empty fully once every 24 hours. How long does it take for a crop to empty fully?

I have put his box in a room in the garage which is always warm. Now I think it might be too warm. The temperature varies between 88 and 98 degrees. Is that too hot? The only alternative is to bring him into the house which is air-conditioned to 71 degrees which I'm sure that would be too cold for him. With the present hot summer weather here in Saudi, I presume he will be used to the heat? 

Final question: Can anyone tell me what kind of pigeon he is? (I’m attaching photos taken last night.) I'm told there are three varieties here -- rock doves, palm doves, and ring doves. He doesn't look like the adult version of any of these! It's amazing how his feathers have developed in the three days that I've had him. I had no idea they grow so fast.

One of his little wings looks slightly bent so I may take him to the vet at the weekend for a checkup. 

Many thanks again for all your help. It is very much appreciated.

Kind regards,
Carole and Rocky (now that it looks as though he might survive, I’ve given him a name)


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## CaroleLee

*Photos of Rocky*

the photos wouldn't attach -- they're too big. I've asked our computer guru at work to reduce the size. Will post them later.

Carole


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## CaroleLee

*Here are the photos*

Here are the photos. Anyone know what kind of pigeon he is -- rock dove, ring dove, or palm dove?


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## pdpbison

Hi Carol Lee,


Looks like a Columbia Liva...

Formula should be like cheap Ketchup...runny...and always wrist temperature.

...do not microwave to warm it.

Mix what you will use in a day, in a cup, in a pan of hot water, test a dab from a spoon on your wrist...refridgerate left overs, make a new batch the next day.

If between meals you notice their Crop does not seem to feel 'slushy' offer them tepid Water.

Their Crops should empty overnight...

85 or 88 degrees Farenheit should be fine...

No drafts from any air conditioning...

Add some powdered Greens if you can get some, to the formula...add a little Corn Meal or Chick Pea Meal if you can get some...]


Various kinds of powder 'super greens' you can get at any health food store, if they have them there.

You can be adding small whole Seeds and a little Grit also, to your formula.

Looks like a little charmer!


Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## CaroleLee

*Grit?*

[You can be adding small whole Seeds and a little Grit also, to your formula.]

Grit? What kind of grit?


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## Pidgey

"Grit" is essentially a bunch of tiny rocks that they use in their gizzards to help grind up the food as well as derive minerals from. If you watch pigeons and doves in the wild, you can often see them walking around and picking up small particles on the ground where you know there isn't any food. That's usually what they're looking for. What most of us do is buy "mineral grit" for birds and chickens. It usually comes in 10 or 25 lb. bags and there are a few different kinds--mineral, crushed oyster shell, crushed granite... I usually have all three on hand and make a mix.

When you're feeding formula, they don't need is to grind their food but the calcium content is usually appreciated. As Rocky gets a little older and you start changing to a diet of seeds, he'll start needing the grit and when you're stuck with no supplier you're usually reduced to just using a handful of dry grainy dirt off the road for them to pick through on their own just like they do in the wilds.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Hi Carole,

The crop would usually empty completely overnight.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

...one can sieve in some way to segregate small gravel from a road or gravely soil, and then wash it well...let it sit in a mixture of one part household Bleach and four parts water for half a day or something, then wash well...and use that.

I used to do that for my Duck, who liked her Grit much larger than the Pigeons do, so for her I just took handfulls of gravel from the old parking lot here and cleaned it and so on for her to have in it's own little bowl.

One could so the same for smaller sizes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## CaroleLee

Thanks for the gravel advice, Phil.

So far, Rocky seems to be doing fine but I have more questions (sorry for being a pest, everyone).

1. He has two lumps under his chin. Is this normal? If his neck were stretched out, these lumps would be in the upper third of his neck. Could this be compacted food in his crop or are these lumps part of his body?

2. When will he start to use his legs? Right now he uses his beak and "elbows" to drag himself about. He doesn't use his legs at all. Is this normal behavior?

3. This morning whilst feeding him I could hear his little stomache gurgling and rumbling. I haven't heard these sounds before. Are they normal or do they indicate that something is wrong?

Thanks for all your help.
Carole


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## Feefo

Hi Carole,

At that age a baby pigeon would rear up on its legs , I don't think that using its beak or wings is ever normal. Can you find some calcium to give him? I use liquid calcium that is specially produced for pigeons, but if you let us know what you find we can work out how much he needs. Ground cuttlefish bone is something that others have used.

Please also check that his legs are properly under him in the "nest" and that there is a surface that he can grip so that his feet don't slide out sideways.

The two lumps are also a worry. If you open his mouth can you see anything down his throat? It could be canker. That can be treated with Carnidazole or Metronidazole which are antibiotics. Again, if you can track down a source we can let you know the dosage.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

CaroleLee said:


> Thanks for the gravel advice, Phil.
> 
> So far, Rocky seems to be doing fine but I have more questions (sorry for being a pest, everyone).
> 
> 1. He has two lumps under his chin. Is this normal? If his neck were stretched out, these lumps would be in the upper third of his neck. Could this be compacted food in his crop or are these lumps part of his body?



If these are small, sharp, high and symetrical, they are the sides of his jawbone.

If not, then they may be from Canker or who knows, but as Cynthia mentions, see if you may open his Beak in a good direct light and look down there and see if anything looks odd or other then healthy pinkish...

Canker can manifest as small yellow little lumps or cubes...







> 2. When will he start to use his legs? Right now he uses his beak and "elbows" to drag himself about. He doesn't use his legs at all. Is this normal behavior?


He should be useing his legs...so, something is not right there with that.

Let him be on a crumpled towell, or even a bunch of small twigs on a rumpled towell...smooth surfaces are not good for them.



> 3. This morning whilst feeding him I could hear his little stomache gurgling and rumbling. I haven't heard these sounds before. Are they normal or do they indicate that something is wrong?



Hmmmm...this does not sound familiar to me, so far as something I recall ever hearing...

What are you feeding him? 

How are you feeding him?

No dairy products I hope?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## CaroleLee

*Rocky's lumps and legs*

No, the lumps aren't sharp, high and symetrical, and yes, I have been giving him dairy -- one tablespoon of yogurt in his forumula. Oh no, what have I done?

I've made an appointment for him at the vets at lunchtime.

Will let you know what the vet says.

Carole


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## CaroleLee

*Things not looking good*

The vet said that Rocky has a large abscess in his throat. Vet wanted to put him to sleep but reluctantly agreed to try to surgically remove the abscess. He's doing that now. I'm back at work and waiting for the vet to call. He said Rocky's chances of survival are slim.

Please send positive thoughts for Rocky!

Carole


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## CaroleLee

*Poor Rocky*

Rocky is home again now but looks so traumatized that I regret putting him through all this.

The vet didn’t do surgery. He squeezed the pus from the abscess out through Rocky’s mouth. It was caused by canker, the vet said, and when all the gunk was removed there was some bleeding so he has put medication on that. All this was done without anaesthetic -- no wonder the little guy looks so rough. The vet gave me some medication for him and said I should feed him by tube because he may not take food through the mouth just now. He gave me a tube and syringe and showed me how to use it. He made me practice twice. Poor Rocky. Then I had to take him home and feed him so that’s what I did. It was awful. I hated doing that to him. My hands were shaking. Afterwards he just lay in his nest with his head lolling to one side and I left him in a warm dark place and came back to work. I really don’t expect him to be alive when I get home. Poor little thing. I should have had him put to sleep.

Thanks to everyone for your kind advice and suggestions. I’m glad you told me that the lumps were probably serious, Cynthia. If only I’d noticed them earlier he might have had a better chance.

Carole


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## Feefo

Hi Carole,



> If only I’d noticed them earlier he might have had a better chance.


They probably weren't there to notice earlier! To tell you the truth I was unaware that canker could cause an abscess.

I hope that the little one will make it. If he does you will be so glad that you gave him the chance of life. He deserves that chance.

BTW yoghurt is a good probiotic that can't hurt pigeons. Although it is a dairy product it doesn't have lactose which is the part of the dairy products that pigeons can't digest because they don't have the enzymes. 

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

Carole,

Another point--didn't you say that he was blown onto your porch from high winds? Do you have any idea where he came from and how far he fell? With respect to his legs, if you hold him and play with his feet do they seem completely lifeless or can you get his toes to respond by flexing?

He may have gotten bruised by the fall and the nerves to the legs are impaired for awhile. The sciatic nerve in pigeons runs through the kidneys and when they get bruised, there can be some temporary paralysis. Only time will tell.

Pidgey


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## CaroleLee

*Rocky is weak but still alive*

Remarkably, this little scrap of a bird is still alive. He's weak and stressed fro his ordeal yesterday but seems to have a great will to live. I tube fed him three times yesterday but this morning and at lunchtime today he ate food from his "bottle". He's resting and I hope he will be stronger tomorrow.

His legs move but his feet don't. He doesn't try to grip my finger when I put it under his toes. I am going to try massaging his feet, as Cynthia suggested. I think he probably fell about 12 feet from the nest to the balcony. He fell onto concrete. Maybe he damaged his legs in the fall or maybe he can't stand because he's so weak. The vet said he is extremely thin. The bone under his belly sticks out. At first I kept him on paper towels in a box, but now I've added a bowl to the box and put shredded paper in the bowl to make a softer nest for him. 

Just wanted you all to know that he is still hanging in there.

Carole


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## pdpbison

Hi Carol,


Use a rumbled hand Towell instead of newspaper. Skip the 'bowl'.

Set a shoebox size box, or a 1 foot by 1 foot by 1 foot cardboard box on it's side ON the heating pad with the towell rumpled in the box...drape a thin cloth over that so it is like a little house with a curtaain on one side...leave a gap of a few inches at the bottom of the 'curtain'...have this on a table or dresser or something, itself, with a towell on it.

Keep him warm...and let the Bird decide how warm he wants to be by letting him be on or off the warm part as he sees fit.

I offered to send you some info, on feeding, too long for the thread, and you never took me up on it. Are you interested? If so you kind of need to tell me since I am not going to send something without your permission, and that is why I asked you to let me know EXPLICITLY if you are interested.

Bruises or strains from falls can effect their legs.

Let him be on a rumpled hand towell to take the strain off of his legs, and be patient.

What are you feeding him?

How, exactly, are you feeding him?

Remind me please also, how old he is in your estimation?

What do the poops look like?

He should be gaining weight and he should be a co-operative and eager eater.

Otherwise, something, maybe several things, are not right.


Let us know?

Best wishes, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## CaroleLee

*To Phil*

Hi Phil,

I replied to the email address that you sent me but didn't hear back from you. However, I did find your instructions for feeding on another thread on this website.

All is certainly not well with Rocky and we seem to lurch from one crisis to the next.

On Wednesday he went to the vet and had the abscess removed. Per the vet's instructions I fed him by tube on Wed afternoon and evening. He hated it and was very stressed and afterwards just lay there panting with his head lolling. I didn't think he'd survive the night but he did.

Yesterday morning (Thursay) he looked a bit better so offered him food in his "bottle" and he ate some -- not as much as he should have but he seemed to enjoy it and I thought it better to let him eat less and not be stressed by the tube. Same thing at lunchtime -- he ate by himself but not much. I thought I was doing the right thing. Wrong! By late afternoon he was so weak that he couldn't hold up his head. I thought I was losing him. I gave him 20 cL by tube and left him to die peacefully. He didn't. At bedtime he seemed brighter so I fed him again by tube.

This morning I again fed him by tube. It's mid day here now and I have just gone to feed him again and noticed that his crop still looks full. I looked in his mouth and the tissues around his beak on the inside are yellowish. That's canker, right? His mouth is slightly open. I daren't give more food as he doesn't seem to have absorbed the last lot.

Per vet's instructions he has been having 0.1 cL of flagyl twice a day but because he didn't eat much yesterday he probably didn't get the full dose. This morning I put the medicine down his throat by tube.

I feed him: 65g baby food,1 egg yolk, 1 tablespoon plain yogurt, half teaspoon corn oil. This is mixed up and warmed up. The tube that the vet gave me is very thin and I have to water down the formula considerably otherwise it won't go down the tube.

I am at my wits end with this bird. He has an incredible determination to live and I want to help him but sometimes feel I'm just prolonging his suffering.

Right now he hasn't had his lunchtime feed.I don't know what to do about the full crop or the yellow mouth. The vet is closed today but I could take him there tomorrow.

Judging from photos on this site I think he was 9 days old when I got him on Sunday so that would make him 14 days old today. He is extremely thin. The bone on his back sticks out. Also, he's a mess with little bits of dried formula on his down/feathers/head. This is due to disasterous experiment with a syringe instead of his regular "bottle" (wide-necked jelly jar) yesterday morning. I need to clean him up but don't know whether that will stress him.

Any advice you could give would be very much appreciated. I don't know why you didn't receive my email to you.

Carole


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## Feefo

Hi Carole,

That dosage sounds too little, can you check it with the vet urgently?

From Nooti's drug chart:

METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl, Torgyl, Stormogyl) 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days. 
In very rare cases, liver damage can be caused by prolonged use over 14 days - but it is very rare and one must balance the risks.
If maintained for 14 days or more it is highly effective against a severe infection of trichomonas gallinae (canker) and in preventing an inside recurrence- (not reinfection from an outside source, ie another bird).
Used for anaerobic, (flushing deep wounds), and protozoal infections. Can be given concurrently with Amoxy and Trim Sulphas.

Can you also ask if he has Carnidazole, that reduces the canker quickly.

Canker can block the exit of the crop, so you are right to witthhold further food until it empties.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

I just noticed the vet isn't available. Can you tell us how much Flagyl he gave you and exactly what it says on the bottle?

Cynthia


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## CaroleLee

*Flagyl*

The vet didn't give me the whole bottle -- he just put some in a container and attached a hand-written label which says flagyl suspension, administer 0.1 ml 2 times daily.

Cynthia did you get the photos that I sent? I finally figured out how to reduce the size so I'll try to post them here.

Since my last post, the yellow coating inside his beak has come off. I think it must have been dried formula from yesterday. I was in a panic as to whether to feed him (worried in case he might grow weaker) and as your reply hadn't arrived I fed him by tube, 10 mL of formula. Then your message arrived saying not to do that! 

The vet is closed today. If he survives another night I'll take him to the vet tomorrow.

I've removed the paper towels and put him on a hand towel as Phil suggested and he seems more comfortable on that. Thanks Phil. You asked about his poop -- usually its watery and yellow, this afternoon it's green.

Carole


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## CaroleLee

*What do to about the crop?*

Here are photos taken a couple of hours ago.

I had given him 10 mL of formula 6 hours before the photos were taken. The crop still looks full. Unwisely, I gave him another 10mL about an hour ago.

As you can see he is really dirty. I would like to bathe him but don't know if that will stress him more.

The yellow stuff inside his beak that you can see on the second photo has since come out -- I think it was just dried formula from yesterday.

So... what do I do about the crop? Should I feed him before I go to bed tonight (5 hours from now)?

I will take him back to the vet tomorrow. I will tell the vet what you said about the low dosage.

Carole


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## Jiggs

I do hope it will pull through. They are tuff little creatures though!


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## pdpbison

Hi Carol Lee,


I do not remember knowing he had an abcess...! Oye...

Where was it? 

Has he been on any antiboitics for that?



Hmmmm...in your images, his Crop looks quite full.

This Bird should have been being fed Ground Seeds and small whole Seeds with added nutrients. And or a commercial powder-and-water formula with possibly small whole Seeds and or ground Seeds added. If you live somewhere where commercial formulas are hard to get or not available, one can improvise just fine with things from a grocery store.

The formula you mention does not sound very good.

No Baby Pigeon will open it's Beak to be fed, they feed by inserting their beak into the open Beak of their parents, hence, my method has always been to let them insert their Beak into the hollow side of a Baby Nipple into which I place 'tepid' or 'wrist temperature' ( never microwaved, allways warmed in a cup in a pan of hot water) formula.

I will e-mail you the little primer.

Are you keeping the Bird warm? Keeping him on a heating pad's edge, so he can on his own discretion be on it or off of it?

Is he on some rough material and not 'smooth'? So his feet can have something to grip?

Yellow 'chauky' liquid poops signal some kind of kidney overwhelm as far as I know, and often, here anyway, that is Trichomoniasis or Canker.

Dabs of 'green' paint looking poos signal starvation.

If his Crop was not emptying then he may have begun to starve, since nothing is going through.

Crops can be bruised or the entire process of it's emptying can become stalled from shocks or falls or trauma...or, from infection sometimes, such as Candida.

Canker in the mouth will look like little yellow 'lumps' of small curd Cottags Cheeze, and not a 'coating'...it will be in the throat.

Trichomoniasis can also occur as infections in areas other than the throat.

From what I gather, if it was me, at this point, I would make sure to keep him warm as I suggested some posts above...I would go the initial gestures of friendlyness even though it is a little late, to see if I can interest him to trust me and to nuzzle so he may eat from a Nipple's hollow back.

I would let him drink Water where I have mixed one and one half tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the gallon.

Massage his Crop gently from the bottom and up, and do this maybe ten or fifteen times a day.

If Canker is still suspected, of course adminster appropriate medication, such as 'Ronidazole' if possible for a Bird of this age, or, maybe 'Berimax'.

I would use the medicine in Water to mix their formula with...let them drink the Vinegar Water between meals.

For now, you need to get that Crop to start emptying...

I would just let them drink the Vinegar Water and be massaging the Crop.


Good luck...!


Phil
las vegas


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## Pidgey

I'd also try to get him in a cupped towel or something to get his legs underneath him where they belong. His crop does look overfull and if he's gotten a slow crop with formula, he could end up with a candida infection in his crop. That can sour and really shut a bird down. There are previous threads that deal with that and I'll see if we can find one.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10923

Redid the pictures because I couldn't make out much as they were.

Try this:


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## CaroleLee

*Rocky's crop not blocked - just full of air!!!*

Rocky is still alive! I took him to the vet at lunchtime as I was very concerned that his crop wasn't emptying and thought that canker might be blocking it. The vet squeezed the crop and lots of air came out! In fact the crop was full of air with just a little bit of food at the bottom. The vet showed me how to squeeze it in case it happens again. The air got in there when I was tube feeding him as there were bubbles in the syringe.

Vet checked the flagyl dosage and said it's okay. I showed him Cynthia's message re dosage and he said that 0.1 mL in solution was actually a higher dose than the 20-50 mgs/kilo, so I will stay with the dosage given.

So... I took the now empty Rocky home, warmed up some formula, and gave it to him in an improvised version of Phil's baby-bottle-nipple method. No nipples in our shop so I used cut-out fingers from a rubber glove. Rocky gulped it down. He started to squeak and flap his wings. He shoved his little head right inside the finger! I gave him as much as he wanted and then offered him some water with salt/sugar added (recipe was Cynthia's from another thread). I am so happy that he was eager to feed.

Tonight I'm going to whiz up some canary seed in a blender and add some to his formula. I don't have any grit but am going to Bahrain next Thursday where I know there's a pet shop. With any luck they'll have grit.

Phil, he's on a scrunched up hand-towel and is in a warm room (varies from 80 to 90 degrees). I am trying to get a heating pad for him.

Phil, I don't think our emails are "talking" to each other. My messages to you aren't getting through and if you sent me your feeding instructions it hasn't arrived.

I feel more optimistic now about this amazing little bird's chances of survival. Thank you all so much for your advice.

Carole


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## Feefo

Carole, your post has been such a relief. I hardly dared read!  

Give Rocky a little cuddle from me.

Cynthia


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## Jiggs

Well if he is squeeking and flapping seems as if he's OK?
Thats great
Enjoy your new pal 
Hows the legs?, what does the vet say?


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## pdpbison

Hi Carole, 


Excellent news...!


You can have say 10 percent small whole Seeds and a little Grit in his formula also.

Get the heating pad today at any drug store, and set it up so it has a rumpled hand towell on it and it is IN a Box on it's side with a light cloth draped over the whole. This way he is safe from any drafts. Have it so he can be on it or off of it or partially on it as he likes that way. You can fold the heating pad in the rear of the box so that it is halfway on the bottom and half way on the rear side going up. Have the rumpled towell on that...and have all of that on a larger towell on a table top dedicated to him and his set up only.

These are Cliff dwelling Birds inately, he will stay put with that arrangement.

Let his drinking Water for the next week be of one Tablespoon of Raw Apple cider Vinegar to a gallon of Water.

Air Crops can signal Candida...who knows, maybe it is 'just' air, but best play it safe I think.

my e-mail address is 

[email protected]

If you write to me, do so directly, and I will send you some more info too long for the little limits on our in house messages.

Let us know how the poops are looking now...


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## CaroleLee

*How can this be?*

Last night Rocky was the best he's ever been. He loved the formula with the crushed seeds added. He ate greedily, squeaking and flapping his wings. I fed him at 9:30 p.m. At 10:00 p.m. I gave him some water which he drank. I went to bed thinking that Rocky had finally "turned the corner" and was on his way to recovery.

Imagine my shock this morning to find him exhausted, head lolling, fighting for breath. He crop was empty. He was in no state to eat from the "nipple" so I immediately gave him a mixture of formula watered down with Cynthia's water/salt/sugar solution. Now he's lying there, beak wide open, fighting for every breath. It's pitiful to see. What has gone wrong? How could he change so quickly from fighting for food last night to fighting for breath this morning?

I have just arrived at work. I will go home in 2 hours to check on him. I don't exect that he will be alive.

Phil, I don't think my emails to you are getting through. I will copy this and send it to your private email. Let me know if you receive it.

Carole

Carole


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## TAWhatley

Hi Carole,

I'm so sorry that Rocky seems to be in such dire straits right now. The sypmtoms are not good. Do realize that this little bird has been through a tremendous amount of difficulty and that it all may have been too much for him.

I think about all you can do at this point is keep him warm and quiet and hydrated. Food can come later if he rallies for a bit.

I'm pulling for you and Rocky!

Terry


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## pdpbison

...well, Carole gets home from work in another hour or so...

I will keep my fingers crossed little Rocky is feeling better...

I do not have any good hunches on what was going on with him.

...does anyone recall what the abcess was, and where it was located, and what regimen was implimented after it's removal?

Canker can progress fast in youngsters sometimes, especially if they are spent from other exigencies or vicissitudes...if Canker is a factor here...

Golly...

Anyway...

Lets hope is is allright...

Phil
las vegas


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## CaroleLee

*Rocky barely alive*

The abscess was in the upper third of his throat. It was big -- almost 2 cm across. The vet squeezed all the gunk out through Rocky's mouth then treated the wound with something (don't know what). 

The vet who saw Rocky yesterday said his throat looked fine. He was great last night, eating and chirping. This morning... disaster.

I wonder if maybe in his eagerness to stuff his head in the nipple and eat, maybe he didn't actually get enough down him. Lots of formula went over him and the towel. He ate quite a bit, or so I thought, and his crop looked maybe half full (but I'm not an expert so maybe it wasn't full enough). After his enthusiastic eating he seemed tired so I didn't try to force him to eat more. Maybe I should have tube fed him to fill up the crop. Maybe he starved between his 9:30 pm. feed and his 6:00 a.m. breakfast. I made last night's formula thicker than normal to try and get more nourishment into him. I also added seeds. Afterwards I offered water and he had a few mouthfuls. Maybe he didn't get enough water. Maybe he dehydrated during the night.

All I know for sure is that last night he was fighting for food and this morning he's fighting for breath.

I've just been home to check on him (luckily the boss is away this week!) and there is no change. He's limp, head on one side gasping for air. Not knowing what to do for the best, I tube fed him with 10 mL of formula/water mixed. I'll be home for lunch in 3 hours.

I darn't take him to the vet in this condition because I know what they would to... or maybe that would be best... I don't want him to suffer a prolonged death.

Oh, what do do...

Carole


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## pdpbison

Hi Carole,


Gosh...I am not sure what-to-do either...

Everything you describe having done sounds very good...

The abcess may have left some complications...usually they are lanced from the outside I believe, or an incision is made in order to address them where the operartive can observe attending complications involveing ajascent tissues or structures...and drained or cleaned out and antibiotics applied to them as well as possibly given to the Bird as a whole for a week or so...but others may know more about this as for usual regimens.

The gasping and lassitude would not be from lack of nourishment certainly, nor dehydration, with the feedings and eating sessions you have provided...

Don't give up...

At least he is hydrated, and fed decently for the time being...keep him warm...

Hope for the best.

If you can call your Vet tomorrow, or later today, see if he has any idea of what might be afoot.

Possibly some general antibiotic would help if it is some order of infection he is fighting, affecting his breathing-airways...


Can you say what the poops have looked like in their recent progressions?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo

I am so sorry, Carole, I don't know what to think. I don't think that it was underfeeding. I wondered whether in his enthusiasm to eat he could have inhaled some formula, but I am certain that if this had happened he would have done something that made you aware at the time.

As Phil said, you have done everything right. Maybe there is something else wrong with him out of sight. 

Cynthia


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## CaroleLee

*Rocky has died*

Rocky died yesterday evening. He improved slightly during the day and started eating again. He looked reasonably okay when I fed him at 5:00 p.m., was still okay when I gave him water at 6, but when I checked on him again at 6:30 he was dead.

He was a plucky little bird -- it's hard to imagine so much will-to-live in something so small and frail. I'm still not sure I did the right thing by taking him in and prolonging the inevitable, but what is done is done. It was a privilege to know and care for a wild creature. I'll never be able to look at a pigeon without thinking of him.

Thanks for all your advice and encouragement. You've all been great.

Best of luck to you all and your pigeons.

Carole


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## pdpbison

Hi Carole,


You gave it the good try there, and I am confident Rocky appreciated your help, kindness and intervention to aid him.


Thank you for having contacted us, and for your efforts to help him...


Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo

I am so sorry, carole. Rocky captured a lot of hearts during his short stay.

Cynthia


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## Reti

I am so sorry he didn't make it.
You did the right thing by taking him in. He had the best care in his last days and I am sure he felt loved and safe.
Thank you.

Reti


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## Skyeking

I'm so sorry to hear about Rocky. You did everything you could for him and more. My thoughts and prayers are with you today.

Treesa


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## simoneg

Another dawn. Little man still alive and going real well. After searching and searching everywhere around I cant find that 2nd baby. I have given up hope for him. I am concentrating on this little baby I have here. Mum is watching her baby being fed by me through my front kitchen window. He is eating more now, probably 10ml this morning. He didnt really like the pet store food. He keeps wanting the organic oats, dash of milk and water. Dont know whether I should continue just with this or make him take the formula. Anyway, I hope this is a sign that the little man is getting used to me being his carer for now.


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