# Feral With Damaged Wing or Shoulder.



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I've got a small feral that I picked up yesterday. It is very quiet and has a wing that is drooping.
I have examined it carefully but can't find anything obvious out of place but don't really know what I'm looking for.
Is there anything particular I should be seeing that will give me an idea if it's a broken wing or a shoulder problem?

Should I strap the wing to it's body or tie up both wings at the tips to keep it up?

Another thing which may be nothing, but it keeps it's tail up high, almost 45degrees to it's body. (Could just be because it's pushing hard aginst the back of the box in fear, but it tends to stay the same when I get it out). Is this indicative of a problem otherwise?


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

I know there are some illnesses that can make a pigeon act like it has a damaged wing but it doesn’t. I hope is wing or shoulder is not broken.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

See if you can get a picture of the bird from directly overhead and a tad forward.

Pidgey


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Does it flap at all ?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Pidgey, Is this what you wanted?


















Sorry, did try and rotate top picture so you wouldn't have to crane your neck, but didn't work.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Jaye,
It only seems to use the good wing. I've tried extending each wing gently and the damaged one hasn't got the same spring when it returns to it's position.

Chriss, this looks a bit like Tipsey's wing, that's why I wanted to try and do something to see if it could be saved early on. Trouble is I don't know how long it has actually been like this, it only came into the 'sanctuary' yesterday.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

The Les Stocker book has information on how to treat a broken wing. What I do is immobilise and support the wing by binding it to the body with micropore, because I can't tell whether there is a fracture by touch alone...the vets that I have consulted have used an x-ray to determine whether there is a fracture and where it is. Suprisingly, supporting and immobilising the wing has had a high success rate for me, I can't think off hand of any of the ones that I treated that were unable to fly again (we have a lot of flightless pigeons that we adopted from other rescuers), but perhaps I was just lucky and was treating sprains or bruises. Three of our rescues were left with a permanet droopy wing but are still able to fly.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Tipsey's wing was literally pulled tight against the body, if memory serves. It wasn't a break--it was nerve damage, or something like that.

Yes, that's what I had in mind and I don't see evidence of a badly broken or collapsed shoulder. I'd tend to tape the wing back in position, including taping the wingtip to the tail feathers to keep it up for a week or two, and then see how it goes.

Pidgey


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hi, a bit more info about Tipsey: Since I have been keeping Tipsey is gained a little bit more mobility in that shoulder or wing, not enough to flap or anything like that though. Tipsey can not preen under his bad wing; his neck can’t go underneath there. I think his entire left side is damaged, as he has a droopy eye slightly and hobble foot while he walks. I don’t think he is in any pain well at least I hope so. Very active bird, cooing and pays attention to anything that moves, he does not spend his time being fluffed up at all. Oh and he used to not be able to get back un after he feel on his back but now he can. I am no expert but I think that is nerve damage.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

That's great news that Tipsey can get up by himself now, he could just manage it if he was against something that gave him some leverage, but not when he was totally flat before.
He did have a limp also, in fact his leg would sometimes give way altogether if he tried to run too fast. I remember Pidgey saying his bird Jag had a similar thing whereby he'd lift his leg up high on occasions when he walked, much like Tipsey.
He's adapted well to his problems.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Come to think of it, they (Jag and Tipsey) did both start off looking rather like this one, if memory serves. Let's hope this ain't the same thing.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

That's why I was keen to do something sooner rather than later just in case.

Thanks for looking at it anyway Pidgey, we'll see how it goes with strapping up both bits.

Hi Cynthia, I just posted you a reply but it disappeared, so I'll try again.

I had the Les Stocker book out to read up about this, I just wasn't sure if I should be treating it the same way if it turned out to be a shoulder problem rather than a break. As I couldn't tell, I did try and strap it up this morning, but only had stretch bandage, and it kept coming off again, so was useless.
I popped into the vets in the hope they'd give me some of the bandage they used to strap up my dog in the past, the sort that sticks to itself.
Unfortunately I got the wrong receptionist, and although she showed me what it was, said it wasn't for resale. She reckoned I could get it from Boots, but they hadn't heard of it, nor had Lloyds Chemist. They sold me some tube grip, which again was no good.
I'll get some micropore asap if you've used that.
I'm annoyed the vets wouldn't give me some as I've lost a day strapping it now, so I hope it doesn't jeopardise the healing through that.
Thanks for the advice.

Janet


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> Yes, that's what I had in mind and I don't see evidence of a badly broken or collapsed shoulder. Pidgey


Pidgey, just FMI...what would the wing look like if it was a collapsed shoulder or bad break ????


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Janet...just a suggestion...a little bit o' painkiller wouldn't hurt the poor fella...if you have any.....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Jaye said:


> Pidgey, just FMI...what would the wing look like if it was a collapsed shoulder or bad break ????


Oh, they look different ways depending on what's broken. In a broken coracoid, the wingtip is usually canted upward in the back while the foremost curvature of the wing (the carpometacarpus) seems to hang downward. In really bad ones, the forward portion of the wing can even appear pushed backward. You can easily feel the coracoids by gently running your finger in towards the base of the cervical vertebral column from the forward point of the sternum (keel) called the "carina". It's more difficult if the bird has a full crop. Your finger will actually feel the "V" made by both coracoids out to the shoulders.

With a broken humerus, the entire wing sorta' sags down altogether.

With a broken radius/ulna pairing where both are broken, they can do a few different things with the wingtip usually sagging.

Only the wingtip sags with broken carpometacarpuses.

Pidgey


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hi Janet,

Haw is the bird doing?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Well Chriss I'm not sure to be truthful.

As each bird I have is always a first for me with different issues, I'm finding this one a bit worrying at the moment.

I have managed to strap the wing to it's body with cohesive bandage that I managed to get in the end from Tescos of all places.

It's taken a few attempts as he is such a wriggler, but no matter how I do it, he manages to slip it slightly and so his wing/shoulder changes position. My last attempt has stayed on for two days now. I just worry that what if I have put it in the wrong position and it heals up cockeyed.

I also taped his wing tip to his tail, and he got out of that too.

I got concerned when he started to limp a bit and on investigation I found that by strapping the wing it was pushing his thigh into his body a bit, so I had to loosen it. It reminds me of how Tipsey used to hold his leg up sometimes. He is managing to feed and drink ok but mainly just sits in the back of the carrier. He is a bit calmer now when handled so I might try and redo the strapping tomorrow.

Another thing I noticed this morning was a sore looking area on the ALULA, just been looking at the skeletal drawing in a book to get the name!

I wonder if this is where the injury is or it might well be where the bandage has been rubbing when he's moved it. I've sprayed it with Coloidal Silver and antiseptic spray and will keep my eye on it.

I bet you wished you hadn't asked how he was now. 

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

This is a picture of the sore area on Baby Charlie's wing.

I've taken the strapping off for the night as it rubs on this and I don't want it to get infected.

Any suggestions as to whether I should put a dressing on this before I put a strapping back on?

Thank you


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hello Janet,

You are so brave taking care of this pigeon, it makes me very squeamish.
Perhaps messaged Cynthia or someone that knows something about that sore looking are on the ALULA.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, feel around and on that bump to determine if it's the true elbow. That is, if it's the furthest back portion of the wing on the bone that essentially leaves the body. It could be indicative of a Paratyphoid or other infection causing an inflammatory response in the joint. That would require Baytril, or another antibiotic to help cure.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've checked the two wings today and the one on the damaged wing is slightly swollen and I'm thinking the skin is broken and the bone might be exposed at the tip. If I feel the good one I can definitely feel the skin over the bone, this one feels harder. I will take a picture of both wings and compare.

Pidgey, the bone is the one you describe, at the end of the bone before the bend. Just got to wiz out but will look at the skeletal drawing again when I get back and confirm this. He has an issue with his leg also like Tipsey, will explain more when i come back too.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've taken some photos from different positions in the hope it shows exactly where this joint is as i'm not very good at describing it.
The joint on the bad wing is more swollen and looks as if the skin has been damaged, it feels hard around the edge.








The one on the right is the good wing. Maybe the photo on the previous thread maybe clearer of the bad one.

The following pictures show where this joint is on the wing.









He has a tendancy to hold his leg up slightly especially after I've been holding his wing. He has fallen over and scratched it until it bled in his efforts to get up, just like Tipsey did. I did think initially that it was due to the strapping being too firm and pressing on his leg, but I have just got the wing taped up to the tail now, so that can't be the case. Just thought I'd mention that although we never really knew why Tipsey and Jag walked like that.

Don't think it's a boil but looks swollen now I look again.

I have got some Baytril that Cynthia sent me for another pigeon, assuming it keeps ok. Or I have Synulox. 
Thanks for any advice.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry I have made a mistake after looking at the skeletal again. It's the elbow isn't it ?


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

If the bird is in danger of scratching itself like Tipsey used maybe would be a good idea to have his feathers on the wing clipped too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Shoot, this could be articular. I'd probably start him on Baytril at a fairly high beginning dose (20 mg/kg, PO, BID) for three days and then back down to 15 mg/kg, PO, BID for quite awhile (over a week) and see how it goes.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Decided to bathe it this morning and noticed there was a thin dry scab over the joint, so this came off. It bled slightly and I sprayed it with anticeptic wound wash and put some intracite gel on it.
This afternoon it has gone hard again and I would say today it is a little more swollen.
Have started her on Baytril, gave her 0.2mls still have to give her a second dose. I hate to admit I get confused when talking about mls/mgs/ kgs. Just wondered if you could confirm the dosage as my syringe is in mls. Do you use liquid or powder Baytril, as I have liquid if there is a choice?

Thanks a bunch.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

Baytril comes in liquid form and in tablets. The liquid is best for pigeons as it is easier to measure the dose.

If you let us know how much your pigeon weighs we can work out the exact range of the dose. It is a long course but the good news is that it only needs to be administered once a day. For suspected paratyphoid I would go for a higher dose. If you are low on Baytril, please let me know.

The chart below (middle line) shows the dosage, 10-20 mg per kilo, orally, once a day.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thank you Cynthia. 
Sorry I've had to be out this evening and so too late to disturb her to weigh tonight, I'll check her tomorrow and work it out.
I am so bad with figures, sort of dyslexic with figures if there's such a thing, and even worse if it's not in pounds and ounces. I don't feel too bad though as I had to rush my dog to the vets tonight and the vet had to go and find a thermometer that was in fahrenheit as he couldn't work in celcius, and he's quite young!!

I was trying to find some info today to save having to admit I couldn't work it out, and came across a site that obviously only knew of Baytril in water soluable form, that's what confused me.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Have weighed this little one today and she is 275grams.
Based on that, what dose should she have of Baytril please? Higher to start and then reducing after three days?

I bathed the area again and it still bleeds slightly from the centre.
I could see the two 'bones', that form a V at that same point on the good wing. On the damaged wing I could see the two bones, and this swollen area is right at the point. Does look like it's the joint that has the problem.
She's a bit perkier and eats and drinks well, poops like there's no tomorrow. They are a little wet, the urates are more watery than white. Assume this is ok?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

5.5 milligrams per day of pure medicine, but I don't know what Baytril you have. 

Kinda' looks and sounds like it might be an articular infection like Paratyphoid, E. coli or something like that. Those can be pretty hard to dislodge sometimes. In the worst cases, I've had to resort to Clindamycin when Baytril wouldn't get it.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks Pidgey,

I'll need to check back with Cynthia for that info. It's liquid form, so I don't know if that varies in contents. Hopefully speak to her tomorrow to confirm as it's past midnight here now.


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hi Janet,

I am not very good at working out the dosage but my husband can do the math well. If Cynthia can not figure it out you should post here the weight of the bird and the volume of Baytril solution you have available (the concentration). I need to know a correct dosage that has applied to another bird and I can find out what would be right for your bird hopefully.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks Christina,
Sorry, I just missed your post last night as I'd logged off.

I've got written down 2.5% concentration is 10-20mg per kg weight of bird, that must be what I was given when I used it for Danni previously.
It's just that Cynthia had written the concentration on the bottle she sent me before but unfortunately it has rubbed of now, but I'm fairly sure that is what this is. I'll PM Cynthia to confirm.
My dog got prescribed Baytril yesterday, but that has come in tablet form.

I hate being so useless with figures.


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hi Janet, my husband has done the math but I think from what it trued out that there could be a mistake some ware down the line as it does not makes sense comparing with the dosage I had to give Piggi in the past.

Could there be 10-20gm instead or 10-20mg ?

This is what it turned out. I have also done the volume in ml, in case you have liquid solution ( but the volume looks way to small in these calculation and that is why I am saying it could be gm instead of mg) 

At 10mg (per kg) = 2.75mg which is also 0.00275ml

At 15mg (per kg) = 4.125mg which is also 0.004125ml

At 20mg (per kg) = 5.5mg which is also 0.0055ml

After all this you should defiantly talk to Cyhthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, those amounts would assume that the Baytril was 100% pure. If you were just talking pure water, 2.75 milligrams is exactly 0.00275 mL, and so forth. An "mL" is a "milli"-liter, or 1/1000th of a liter, or exactly: one gram. A "milli"-gram is 1/1000th of a gram. 

So, 1/1000th gram = 0.001 gram = 1 milligram = 0.001 mL, all the same amount.

Then, the next thing you have to do is adjust for the concentration of the actual medicine in hand. Baytril can be gotten in several different concentrations and you absolutely have to know which one in order to figure out how much to actually give.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Christina,
Just checked back at my old thread about Danni where I had this info and it states: 1ml of Baytril contains 25mg of active ingredient so that is 2.5%.


Pidgey, just notice your update, I only have Baytril and Synulox, I'll keep her on Baytril for a while and see what happens.
She actually has started to move around her cage a bit as opposed to cramming herself tightly in the corner, just maybe feeling a bit better!

Thanks, Janet


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Ok new calculation


At 15 mg per Kg at 2.5% purity is 0.165ml.

Can somebody double check this? because is not for certain


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, you got it--0.165 mL.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

OK, just to clarify, even though I suffer from vertigo when calculating dosages:

The Baytril is 2.5% solution

The active ingredient is Enrofloxacin

1 ml contains 25mg of Enrofloxacin

0.1 ml contains 2.5 mg of Enrofloxacin.

The dosage is 10 - 20 mg PO (by mouth) every 24 hours.

So for every 100 gms of pigeon you give one tenth of that, ie 1 -2 mg of Baytril.

Therefore a pigeon weighing 250 gms would therefore require 2.5 to 5 mg of Baytril. That is 0.1 to 0.2 mls.

To get 5.5 mg you would need to give 0.22mls(?) but I would find that difficult to measure in a syringe, but then my sight is consistent with my age so younger members would probably not have that difficulty.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thank you everybody, My brain really hurts now!  but I'm very grateful for your input.

Anyway, only one more question, (for now), is that dose for twenty four hours?
Pidgey when you suggested PO.BID, I didn't know whether you meant that dose split into twice a day, or that full dose twice a day?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is something that we tend to argue about, because Baytril's dose used to be 10-20 mg/kg PO BID and then changed to 10-20 mg/kg PO SID.

I would dose once a day, as we would if we were not aware that in the past the same dose was recommended for administration twice a day. It won't do any harm to dose the 10-20 mg/kg twice a day, because that is what we used to do, it is just more stressful for the bird. But just to clarify, I will ask the manufacturers how often the dose should be given.

In the meantime, this is what Baytril said about the single daily dose:



> Recent findings suggest that once daily application of the total daily dose maximises the success of Baytril therapy. This regimen also offers more convenience to the animal owner and significantly increases therapeutic compliance.


The chart above states that the single daily dose is 10-20 mg/kg . If you go to this link 

http://www.baytril.com/15/Other_Animals.htm and click on the chart to the right, you will see that the dosage recommended for some birds is every 12 hours, but for pigeons it is every 24 hours.


Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Found Paracites on Her Today.*

Hi, I have taken some new pictures as I need some advice as to what to do next as the joint has changed, but I have found some more swelling on the other side of the same joint now.
She has been on Baytril for 10 days now. The initial swelling on the elbow joint has reduced a little but when I examined her yesterday I could feel the other side of the joint is protruding exactly the same way as on the top of the wing.
There is a red spot in the centre of the swollen part, this has almost disappeared now on the top. The one underneath has a red spot also in the middle of it. There is another one on the edge of the wing aswell.
The underside of her wing is quite sore looking and has been bleeding. I can't be sure if this is part of the same problem or whether it is where she has scratched herself.
This is the original sore on the top of the wing.








This is the underside of that joint with the protruding sore. The one above looked like this up until yesterday.








This the top edge of the wing where there is a similar looking sore.









On top of all this I found two different creepy things that came off her onto the white towel I had on my lap when I was holding her.
I caught them and looked at them closely with a strong magnifier. The smaller one was like a red spider, and the other one which was a little larger had wings. Could these have anything to do with her problems?

How long can I keep her on Baytril now?

Have I been making a mistake as the last three days I have been giving her probiotic yoghurt, should I have waited until she stopped the Baytril?

I've been looking at the pictures on the paratyphoid sticky and these aren't fluid filled boils, I don't know if anyone can tell from these pictures what this might be.

Any advice as to whether I just carry on with the same treatment for a while longer would be very much appreciated.

By the way I've been rubbing Manuka Honey onto these sores everyday in the hope it might help with the healing.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are actually a lot of things that can set up shop in joints and cause mischief. Not all of them can even be gotten with Baytril, either. For us, it's usually a crapshoot. In THE PIGEON, by Levi, it tells of the old way of dealing with "Paratyphoid Boils" on the wings... it went something like plucking off the flight feathers on that side and leaving the bird alone for a few weeks. I've never tried it.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

Why don't you send those photos and a brief summary to Dr Colin Walker via his website? It would be interesting to see what he has to say.

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/

Cynthia


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hi Janet, I have a powder for parasites( like lice, ticks etc) and it works like wander. I can send you some


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I initially thought .. Paratyphoid .. right away. The pics don't bear that out. Cythia's suggestion of forwarding those photos and comments to Dr. Walker is a good one!

Terry


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thank you, will give Dr Walker a try.

Christina, I took a drive over to the pigeon supply shop yesterday and I got some drops that you put on the skin between the shoulder blades, called Feather Drop, a bit like Frontline works I assume. If this doesn't clear it I'll get back to you for the name of the powder you've used. Thanks for the offer.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Unfortunately Dr Walker wasn't able to help just by looking at the pictures. He suggested I try and find an avian vet to have diagnostic work done, biopsy and cultures are probably what's needed to determine the biology of the problem.

The underside of the wing is looking very sore and bloody tonight. I bathed it this morning and there are a lot of 'bits', (scabby looking), coming off, but she must have been scratching it during the day for it to be so sore.
There is some blood at the base of a feather near the original wound also, so I am wondering if the parasites are causing some of her problems.
I haven't actually found any more live ones coming off her today.

Unless there's something these little b.....s can cause in the joints, I doubt that these problems are connected so I assume the swollen joint is something on it's own.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Unfortunately Dr Walker wasn't able to help just by looking at the pictures. He suggested I try and find an avian vet to have diagnostic work done, biopsy and cultures are probably what's needed to determine the biology of the problem.


That is disappointing. I think I have become extremely cynical in my old age, I wish that I believed that finding an avian vet and having biopsies and cultures done would provide the answer, but this has never yet happened in my experience. Take this for example: My poor cat developed an ear infection after having polyps removed. She was being treated at the largest and oldest veterinary surgery in the city and samples were sent to the lab who reported they "had never seen anything like it". Great, that really helped. She was treated with Synulox first and Baytril next, with no improvement, so they recommended euthanasia as by that time she was in so much pain. Then there was my dog Beth. She lost her appetite, so the way that went was x-rays, laparoscopy and splenectomy (still at the largest surgery then) after which some idiot vet made an instant diagnosis of liver cancer a week after tha laparoscopy and based only on a hurried ultrasound. I insisted on a referral to the European specialists where she underwent two weeks of tests which excluded liver cancer...poor baby died then and it was after her death that they wrote to say that she had been suffering from Inflammatory bowel disease all along.

Sorry to vent, bad day!

Cynthia


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Worst thing is the staggering expense and for NO solutions.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, yes I was a bit disappointed too. I had hoped that the pictures would just be enough for him to recognise the type of joint problem involved.
I am just going to carry on with my present treatment for a while longer and see if the underneath lesions heal up as she has scratched through to the bone in one place this morning.
I've strapped up the wing tip again so she can't get to the underside so easily to give it a better chance.

How long is the maximum period I should keep her on Baytril, don't want to run her down.

Janet.

ps. Cynthia, I am sorry to hear about your dog.
My vet decided not to take a biopsy of my dog's liver recently as that in itself is dangerous he said, he's just relying on blood tests to see if it's deteriorating. I hope we don't find out too late there was something that could have been done.


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hi Janet,


Is am sorry to hear this bird is not getting better. I do not know what difference would make an avian vet but would worth maybe trying. Where I stay I have to travel an hour and a half by car, if lucky and no traffic, to find an avian vet, is a pain. Never had to go luckily.


I do not know much about Baytril, I think would be no more then 24 days. Someone should confirm this though.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Today the swelling does seem to be reducing on this joint and the centre scab has gone. I daren't get too excited but I'm hopeful that something is improving.

There are a few new feathers starting to grow around the joint now but I am a bit concerned with one that seems to be growing downwards under the skin. I think as it is the nearest to the joint it may have got re-routed as it grew, due to the swelling, just a guess.

Do you think it is ok to leave, if it keeps growing inwards will it cause a problem?
What can I do if it doesn't right itself. I wondered if it was like us getting a splinter out from under our skin.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, you can scratch a hole with a needle and if you've got a hook-type needle, you can pull it up and out. That's what I thought about after looking at the picture without even reading the text.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Some Progress At Last*

Babe has been on Baytril now for eighteen days but today I can see a change starting in the joints. The top one still has a small round lump on the joint but the one underneath, and the lump at the top of the wing look to be back to the same size as the good wing.
I managed to get the tip of the feather out that was growing into the skin so I'll wait and see if it grows out normally now.

She is so fiesty and confident and turning out to be a real Houdini. I decided to give her a treat and take her out to spend the day with Charlie Farley and Danni Boy. I had her in a cage but failed to notice there was a small gap where the seed dish attaches to the bars. Within one minute she was out through this small hole and running up and down the ramps to sit on the perches.  Then proceded to find her way around to the feeding station much to the amazement of the other two. It was so funny that I let her stay out and she really made herself right at home. 

The really great thing I noticed was her wing wasn't hanging down as far as before and didn't drag on the ground any more. She can stretch it out now but can't lift it very high. Could be the joint problem was causing this droop. She can't fly but was using it to balance and has got some movement in it now. I'm going to give her some gentle physio on the off chance it might get stronger with use. 

She has very few feathers on the underside at the moment and the sores need to heal but I'm so pleased to see her trying to use it.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might try holding the bird in one hand, the bad wing in the other, extending it (the wing) out to the side and then rotating it upward to see how much resistance there is. Then, you can compare it to the other wing. When they've had a bad trauma to the shoulder or a bad articular infection (Paratyphoid or something else), then it can cause enough stiffness that the range of motion is impaired. That can range anywhere from only slightly to a complete inability to rotate the wing above the horizontal. That, of course, means that there's no way the bird can fly upward. You can sometimes help free that up with daily physical therapy.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I did notice she couldn't lift it up like the other one so maybe that's all she'll do. I'll give that a go tomorrow when she's up, ( tucked up in bed now!).

She's not been able to stretch it for 3 weeks as I've had it strapped to her tail, so I expect she's relieved to be able to move it again.

Stop the Baytril now?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nahhh... keep the Baytril going for now. Those pesky articular presentations are kinda' hard to dislodge sometimes. They may even require switching to Clindamycin but you'd have to get a vet onboard for that one in the UK.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry, just one more question!

Is she ok to be with the other pigeons in the day then if it is an articular infection, Don't want to mix her in too soon if she is likely to be infectious to them.

Just felt sorry for her and wanted to give her some company.

The only other antibiotics I have to hand are Synulox and Flucloxacillin, (this was for me for horse fly bites that went nasty, but I didn't finish them). Either of these any good to her? As you know can't get much else here without vets as you say.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

amyable said:


> The only other antibiotics I have to hand are Synulox and Flucloxacillin, (this was for me for *horse fly bites *that went nasty, but I didn't finish them). Either of these any good to her? As you know can't get much else here without vets as you say.
> 
> Janet


I tend to get a lot of those, but mostly, I'm told, because I'm the wrong end of the horse...

Articular infections are kind of a hit-or-miss kind of thing. You're virtually never going to even be able to identify what the pathogen is so it's generally trial-and-error on the antibiotic. If it responds to the medication, then you fired the right shot. If not, then you have to try something else. Clindamcyin is especially interesting because it works very well inside actual bone, which they don't all do. Actual bone infections are called "osteomyelitis".

For now, just keep treating with the Baytril and feeling the joints to see how they're doing every day.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> *I tend to get a lot of those, but mostly, I'm told, because I'm the wrong end of the horse...*
> 
> Articular infections are kind of a hit-or-miss kind of thing. You're virtually never going to even be able to identify what the pathogen is so it's generally trial-and-error on the antibiotic. If it responds to the medication, then you fired the right shot. If not, then you have to try something else. Clindamcyin is especially interesting because it works very well inside actual bone, which they don't all do. Actual bone infections are called "osteomyelitis".
> 
> ...


Re: *...horse fly bites...*

Sorry, Amy, really don't mean to detract from your thread, but this sentence is JUST TOO much for me to resist!

Uh...truer words...oh well, nevermind...   

Shi


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Kinda' figured you'd show up...

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Love it Shi, but I hope you're not casting aspersions on Pidgey's ability to tell one end of a horse from the other!! 

Or was it an inference about what comes out of his mouth, I wonder  

Anyway Shi, detract all you want, nice to 'hear' from you, and trust Squeaks your new family members are doing well.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

amyable said:


> Love it Shi, but I hope you're not casting aspersions on Pidgey's ability to tell one end of a horse from the other!!
> 
> Or was it an inference about what comes out of his mouth, I wonder



No, not his mouth...

Oh, Pidgey DEFINITELY knows which end is WHAT(?)...UP?...whatever! 

Y'see, Amy, I've known the Pidge for awhile and, while he's been my "humor guru" (with Pigeonmama/Daryl), I just feel it's my duty to keep him "centered." This is VERY difficult to do and I have to be extremely vigilent! He's quite intelligent and knows what he's talking about (welllll, 99.99 % of the time, depending on the subject!).

It's those "other" times I have to watch out for. Sometimes, he just finds himself buried with work and helping others as his title, "Guardian of Broken Pigeons" warrants. To keep him sharp and on his toes, he sometimes needs a real "quick" break on the "lighter" side. Then, all is back to business. 

Thank you for understanding, Amy. Not _all_ members get to see the - uh - "other" end, I _mean_ side of Pidgey... 

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi

P.S. Squeaks, Dom & Gimie are just fine. Thank you for asking. Squeaks is in "mate" mode, soon to return to "daddy" mode. Dom and Gimie still get their exercise flying time out. Gimie now knows to fly back into her "home" when I say "Home, Gimie!!" She's a smart one! Dom still needs to be "towel" caught, as he's a pretty clumsy flyer.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Totally understand Shi,
In fact it's the humourous side of the forum I probably enjoy most,
I quite often sit chuckling away when reading your posts, lightens the day!!

See, you just don't know who's earwigging your conversations.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Babe's under wing feathers, or lack of them is bothering me a bit.

I treated him with Feather Drop twice now, designed to treat parasites etc.

The skin is very sore and broken despite me treating it by lightly bathing it and putting intracite gel on, it doesn't really improve.
It appears to have a lot of scabs and the feathers seem to be more sparse than when I first had him.
I've been looking at images and info on feather mites and other paracites to see if this is the likely cause. I can't see any little bugs on him any more, but wondered if the black on the base of the shafts is normal. Looking at them with a very strong magnifier they look like bloody scabs.

Anyone got any ideas how to treat this please?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Just bumping this back up as I needed some ideas on how to get this skin to heal.
Have used Manuka Honey also hoping that might sooth it.
Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, is there any funny odor at all? It almost looks like a CUD (Chronic Ulcerative Dermatitis) but we don't know the cause--might be fungal, bacterial, parasitic... I suppose you could paint it with a dilute Betadine (1 part 10% Povidone Iodine mixed into 9 parts water) and give it a few days. Given the history of the wing, it might be a good idea to go with another antibiotic like a Tetracycline or Keflex.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've just been to see him this morning and it is worse than those pictures now.

Feathers are coming away with this scabby mess on the end and then the skin just bleeds, it's like he's being eaten alive. His other side is fine not affected at all.

No odour by the way.

Thanks, will give the Iodine a try, whatever I'm doing isn't working.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Babe's skin is just not improving even having been to see a vet. She put him back on Baytril as it was bleeding and sore. He had been on it previously for the swollen joints.

I has just crossed my mind that as he didn't arrive with this particular problem that I'm aware of. is there any possibilty that this could actually be caused by the Baytril?

The reason I'm querying this, I've just been reading an article that Jenfer sent me in a link regarding my bird with the shattered wing.
There was a paragraph relating to the use of Liquid Kyolic where it had been successfully used to eradicate a pseudomonas infection in a bird,(showing as haemorrhagic skin lesions), that was resistant to conventional anti-biotics and caused by treating a previous infection with Baytril.

Has anyone had any experience of similar reactions as a result of using Baytril?

Janet


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Oh dear, those symptoms with the follicles, black spots, and falling feathers is definite parasite action. They are deep within the follicles and this one needs spray form of Scalex or permectrin II, something that gets in the bird and permeates the blood to kill parasites that you can't get to externally. And the sooner the better.

Also, this is NOT caused by the long skinny lice looking things, commonly known as the 'long louse' as those just eat feather dust.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2008)

amyable,

I have no idea what is in that area and causing all this trouble but Pidgey may have been right on with a possibility that this is an ulcerative dermatitis.

Frankly, it's been my experience that if this is the case, a vet has to open up the area and scrape out all the offending tissue. It's not the Baytril doing this and because it's not, all the Baytril in the world is not going to cure it. 

I had an experience with one of my birds that had an ulcerative dermatitis on his wing elbow. The vet went in and scraped out all the offending tissue. The wound never healed properly and so he then had to go do a second surgery to remove the entire elbow of the wing. I hope it doesn't come to this but my suggestion is to ask the vet about considering a surgery to at least scrape out whatever is in there causing the area not to heal.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> There was a paragraph relating to the use of Liquid Kyolic where it had been successfully used to eradicate a pseudomonas infection in a bird,(showing as haemorrhagic skin lesions), that was resistant to conventional anti-biotics and caused by treating a previous infection with Baytril.


Hi Janet,

Baytril itself would not have caused the infection of the skin lesions, but the indiscriminate use of Baytril has led to bacteria becoming resistant to it. My dog had a pseudomanas infection of her mouth, with ulceration. Marbocyl didn't clear it up but Baytril did.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Janet, have you seen her do anything like peck of scratch at the area?

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

When I have bathed it she does preen but mainly on the outside of the wing, I haven't seen her getting aggitated and going at the underside. I have to make sure I hold her leg when I'm working on it as she is a real wriggler and is in danger of catching it with her claws.

This evening I bathed it with diluted hibiscrub, as the vet told me to, and in a couple of minutes it was bleeding again. I put some Hypercal on that I bought today, contains Calendula and Hypericum to try and calm it down.

There is always something scab like coming away when I bathe it and the base of the feather is black. The skin has a yellowy scab over it and underneath it the skin is quite sore.

I am thinking that the length of time she's been on Baytril now it's not going to do any more to help, but I should finish the seven days the vet gave me so I can prove it hasn't helped.

Janet

Edit: I'll take a new picture tomorrow to show how it's changed.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Now that I'm home and I can see the pictures, it could even be Staph. MRSA. That's a very bad looking infection.
I actually would try the Manuka honey, as many hospitals have turned to natural cures against M. Resistant Staph A. But I would also be very careful with this, as it is contagious.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've done the usual treatment this morning and there's no improvement from yesterday.

Philodice, have just been out and coated it with Manuka Honey just in case that may help.

The yellowy scabbing, this is more at the body end.









The skin tends to lift where there are feathers. Most feathers have come out.









Does it seem odd that it is only the one wing that is affected. There aren't many feathers on the leg on the same side, although the skin is ok.

Janet

PS. The bit of blood is in fact where he struggled for a second and di catch this with his claw. Apart from that it isn't bleeding today.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A lot of silver would sure be good in a case like that. How about Silvadene?

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Have been trying to source Silvadene. Possible UK equivalent is Flamazine, but haven't yet found it for retail.
Is it prescription over there?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It used to be. Some of the rehabbers work closely enough with vets that they can get it, though.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

OH pooh, will ask about it tomorrow at chemist and see what they come up with. Thanks.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2004/november/Thomas/Introducing-Silver-Dressings.html

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

There was a good case there for the Betadine solution/povodine iodine as you suggested before to me.
I did use a diluted solution for a couple of days, then once I'd seen the vet she put me on this other treatment if hibiscrub.
I'm going to go back and give the iodine a proper chance as I didn't give it long enough to tell.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Went back to the vet today as the under wing infection is just as bad if not worse.

She has decided that we should stop all treatment except the Baytril and just see if it will dry up. The yellowy scabs are just dried 'yuck' she said, but doesn't feel it's anything infectious or parasitical as it wouldn't be confined to just one area. Trouble is if it doesn't sort out she thinks it might need amputating rather than him suffer this. I feel bad for him as the swollen joints are back to normal and he was starting to stretch and move the wing a lot more. Might not have got back to flying but you never know.

Poor Babe is hanging on in there but looks a bit down in the dumps especially as the other two pidgies aren't very welcoming to him.

Please keep your fingers crossed for him.

Janet


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hi Janet, I am keeping my finger crossed for the poor bird, poor little thing


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sometimes, it seems like finger-crossing is about all you've got left. Time will tell.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Wishing the best for the little one, Janet. 

Cindy


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