# Sour crop in rescued mourning dove?? Please help!



## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

I'll start off by saying I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. I have never dealt with a bird before and am really upset over whether or not I'm actually killing the poor thing 
I ended up with her when she came to me doorstep, literally. Her parents built a very tiny, flimsy nest between little twigs near my door. The other chick was much bigger and there was barley room for that one in the nest alone. I left her on the ground and observed for 12 hours. Her parents seemed to be completely ignoring her and she was literally right against my door. I tried moving her so the parents would feed her, but she came back to the same spot, maybe trying to get out of the heat?
I brought her in after she started looking lethargic. I did research as best I could and she seemed between 10 and 15 days old. I got some Exact Kaytee formula and have been hand feeding her with a syringe attachment that she puts her beak in to. 
I haven't been warming her but it was about 80 degrees where I kept her and I thought that would be ok.
I'm doing everything wrong. The food has been at room temperature because if I try to use hot water to mix it separates almost immediately. Now I've read on here that the food should be soaked THEN warmed?? I don't have a hot water bottle or a heating pad and the best I can do right now is a warm room with a lamp/indirect sun
She seemed to be doing fine for about a week. She's grown about 1/3 in size, feathers come in well and I've been helping her excersize her wings. Everything seemed fine until two days ago. I think there's a problem with her crop. Normally I've been feeding her 5-8 ml of melted ice cream consistency formula about 4 times a day. I let her tell me when she's finished. In the past couple of days she's only taken 4-6 ml and there is visibly a problem. Her crop seems to be filling disproportionately. There is a part in her 'throat' I would say before her crop that swells when she eats and she'll stretch her neck and swallow it down but it comes back up. I don't know what I've done wrong or how to fix it. Please help.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A couple of things... most of us that have to feed a lot of babies have simply learned to mix up whatever powder is required for the specific bird for that feeding and add warm tap water until we get the consistency that we want. You just keep stirring and stirring until it stops changing consistency--about a minute. Then feed. Purists will scream, but I've never had a problem. In any case, don't mix up any more at a time than the bird will actually eat and then throw any leftovers away.

Can you post a picture of your exact problem?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The other thing, by the way, is there's such a condition called "aerophagia", where the chick swallows more air than food during the eating process because the feeder (that's you) hasn't quite got the knack of working the syringe at the rate that the chick is trying to pull it in, thus the air-swallowing. You might be seeing that.

And to add to the former post, if you let formula set around for any serious length of time, it can actually start growing yeast and then we start seeing a gassy crop. That usually means that we have to acquire some Nystatin, which is a drug that stops fungal growth. It's not absorbed by the body so it's not a "systemic" drug, but it's not easy to find in the correct form for most people.

Other possibilities can be due to bacterial or protozoal bugs that the chick might have. We often would have you look down the chick's throat to see if there's anything resembling cheesy deposits, so give that a shot while you're at it.

Pidgey


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

If this is air in the crop, be sure to press the syringe out before feeding to expell the air.. or you can try this method of feeding which may be easier for you..

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=553401&postcount=4


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

Here she is 


It's hard to get an image of the problem. To me it seems like it may be air?? I've felt it gently and it's elastic and soft and touching it makes her 'swallow it down' again. It usually slowly comes back up. Could I be over feeding for her age?? It's a strong possibility she's getting a large amount of air because I'm quite honestly clueless. I'm feeding her in a manner that requires her to put her beak slightly down in a syringe attachment because if I hold it up and let gravity do it she just lets it all run in her face and chest.
I can't really get her beak open to look at anything and she's never been inclined to 'beg' characteristically with her mouth wide. I've been watching her very closely now and am noticing behaviors she may have been doing all along or that may be symptoms...she seems to be yawning frequently, somewhat sleepy, wants to cuddle up to me and isn't very enthusiastic about food after the first 2-4 cc's. 
I have felt her crop about an hour and a half after feeding about 3 cc's and I'm not sure what it's supposed to feel like..but it feels pliable, somewhat soft and about the size of a dime..? I think it's empty at this point, but I'm not certain. When I feed her the 'bubble' is more in her throat than her crop.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artsy,



Where are you located?

And, Can you post some good close up in focus images of the little Dove's freshest Poops?


Obstruction or partial obstruction in the Esophagus sounds more like what one would expect a Canker illess to do...but, Yeast or Candida problems are also common occurance in hand fed Doves or Pigeons, because of bad formula preperations, usually encouraged in a cavalier "Well the most sloppy uncaring minimal effort was always good enough for the birds I did! and that's good enough for me!' anectode from Pidgey or whomever else.

Gosh Pidgey, why keep advising people do make formula in a way which is likely to cause bad problems for their Baby or Youngster Bird? 

Why be so stubborn about this year after year?


Pride in intelligent accomplishment which is worth doing and worth doing well for the Bird's sake, is one thing.

Pride in being stupid and sloppy and uncaring, as if it were a virtue because you can claim you get away with it, is quite another thing.

Bad practice is bad practice, even if some people feel they got away with it.


What is your problem with this, after all these many instances where you have seen and had it explained to you, how doing it as you recommend is bad and will cause problems sooner or later...and, for most other people, sooner is more like how it will tend to go.

Making or mixing formula is easy to do correctly, and this then eliminates the whole gamut of troubles or Babys getting sick or dieing from wrong formula practice.


How could doing it correctly not be worth it? Especially when you are advising others who are in trouble already with having done it wrong, just like you do?

Anyway, whether or not a youngster is harboring a slowly welling Canker or Candida or BActerial Crop/esophagul infection already when one gets them in, bad formula prep, hasty sloppy indifferent grudging minumal effort gestures, instead of doing it right, the Bird ends up with a tenacious rubbery 'slug' of formula adhering to the inside of the Crop, which will not be felt by palpation since it feels about the same as the Crop, and, then, this starts rotting and harboring Bacteria and undesireable Organisms, makinf toxins which badly effect the Bird's entire system, and, even if it does slowly dissolve or get passed, by then the Bird is sick with usually a variety of low level infections, some of which then can bloom into full fledged Canker or Candida or Bacterial else.

It is not necessary to supply warmth to an endothermic youngster, and, by 7 or 8 days, or 9 days old...most will be little 'Furnaces'...so, no worries there.


If one needs to check to see if a youngster is endothermic, just have them lay in your Palm, and, you will be able to tell with no ambiguity.


Phil
Lv


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, you ought to consider something else given her age: get some pigeon and dove mix and start teaching her to feed herself--that's not that hard to do and she's actually ready for it. You will probably have to put some seeds in front of her and peck at them with your finger or a pencil for awhile. She probably won't get the idea immediately but have patience, she eventually will and then it'll be "Katie-bar-the-door"!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Because I've never had a problem with it, that's why.

Pidgey


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

She instantly came through for you on the droppings! Doesn't get mush fresher. Unfortunately my pics aren't very good as I only have my phone to take pics with =_=

I'm sure the problem is my fault. I know I don't know what I'm doing. I really don't want to get in the middle of a long standing argument...I just want to figure out what's wrong and what I can do to fix it. She shouldn't have to suffer for my ignorance.


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

I've offered seed for her and she just walks on it...lol I've put it in my fingers, in my palm, tapped at it...all with little response except she wants to hop on my hand. Now she seems more interested in sleeping...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, now, don't go berating yourself, you've done fine so far! She doesn't look bad in the picture, looks pretty typical, actually. We'd know more if we had good info on her weight but that generally requires a kitchen scale that will do a fairly low range of grams or ounces. In any case, teaching them to eat on their own ultimately solves a lot of problems and they have to learn someday, anyhow.

Pidgey


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

After feeling it a bit more, the 'bubble' in her throat (just below her jaw) is definitely air. It's been about an hour and a half since a feeding and there is a very small (about two eraser heads?) area of air swelling just below her jaw. It can be easily manipulated, moved, etc.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where, basically, are you?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm actually going to have to take off here pretty quickly--got an appointment...

Pidgey


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

Oh, sorry, didn't notice the question >_< I'm in Texas.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the things to look for, just in case, is a medication called "Metronidazole". It can be gotten occasionally from aquarium supply stores and some pet stores that carry that kind of stuff. VERY occasionally, it can be gotten at feedstores. It goes by a variety of names, but it's essentially "Flagyl" (you can google that) and needs to be of a type that isn't mixed with anything. Pigeon supply houses have it (a few on the Internet like Jedds and a few others), too. It's one of those things we like to have on hand when wild chicks get to be about this age because they can come down with a rather horrible case of "canker" (not cancer) that's essentially an immune-response storm to a protozoa called a "trichomonad". Sometimes they get that pretty bad and things REALLY get horrible, so we like to have availability of that drug if needed.

Pidgey


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Artsy said:


> Oh, sorry, didn't notice the question >_< I'm in Texas.


not sure if this will help you, but I got air in my baby handfed pigeon's crops when I hand fed them.. I noticed I did not squirt out the air before feeding them.. so I made sure I did that.. but he may be gulping air...it is better for him to be messy than have the air..so make sure you try to keep air out.. usually the adults are feeding seeds to them from their crops..so you can pop seeds in his mouth or back of his throat and he will swallow.. you can use defrosted peas..warmish.. or corn..and then go to a seed/legume mix and pop them and then peck with your fingers at it on the towel you have him on.. still feed the formula when the crop empties..but do the seed thing before you hand feed the formula.. they usually start to notice if you are pecking with your fingers.. it is not easy to feed these type babies..so I commend you for your patience.. also.. when the crop is empty.. you can try to burp a bit of the air out.. by massaging up to the throat..and you can here it burp out sometimes.. just make sure he does not have too much food in there to get down his windpipe..just a bit do that.. it usually corrects itself if your not adding more air at every feeding..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Because I've never had a problem with it, that's why.
> 
> Pidgey



Maybe so, but how many Baby Doves have you raised? 

How many Baby Pigeons?


How many died, where, you conveniently go into denial about any possibility your quality of care could have had anything to do with it?


And, why risk the probabilities of sickness and death for these Babys and Youngsters when it comes to others trying to follow your way of mixing formula, when they ( as them, not as "you" ) so reliably DO end up making problems which never had to exist otherwise? 

This has been explained to you in detail dozens of times now for over five years.

Many more dozens of times now you have seen Threads where people doing this as you do, sicken or kill the Babys...or end up imploring us here for help in rectifying the problems they caused by following your advise or the same advice from others who never felt the matter was worth any care, effort or understanding, and who religate it to the most indifferent perfunctory grudging nothing of a task.

It hardly takes any more time to do it correctly.


Won't you please stop giving them advice which IS merely making sure they keep sickening or killing the Babys? And instead, rationally review the advantages to the Baby if one does prepare the formula correctly? Let the Care Giver decide for themselves, from the options explained to them, along with the liabilities or advantages of the options?


There are things in Life I myself "get away with", and I would never advise anyone else to try those things.

This is basic manners and common sense - have some care about the Subject itself, and these Birds themselves, instead of insisting it is all about you, and, how you claim to get away with it and how thus you are the real subject here with this, your swagger and cavalier being what it is all about, instead of letting it be about what is good for or best for these Birds, and, stop insisting to others that the Bird is an incidental and expendible thing which if it does not work out, who cares, you did it your way, and that is all that matters, and, no one else should ever bother doing it correctly, etc.


These other people are not you, and, they have not been "getting away with it".



Phil
Lv


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ut oh... maybe should of been a pm?..


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

I just gave her about 1cc of warm water and the bubble became more apparent again. I got a picture of it this time. It's on her right (left in his pic) and hard to really see since her head is turned. Excuse the over abundance of pepsi cans...I've had four in 12 hours stressed out over this poor dove lol




Should I try making her burp when the crop is completely empty?
Bison--while I appreciate your opinion and input can you please advise me on solutions..? I know I'm doing it wrong...and I'm not here to cause arguments. I just want to know how to get her healthy and grown and release her into the wild.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Artsy said:


> After feeling it a bit more, the 'bubble' in her throat (just below her jaw) is definitely air. It's been about an hour and a half since a feeding and there is a very small (about two eraser heads?) area of air swelling just below her jaw. It can be easily manipulated, moved, etc.


Can you be a little more clear as to why you definitely think this is air?

Karyn


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

It's completely mobile. Touching it, even gently moves it. There's no resistance and she can easily swallow it and it will slowly re-inflate. It inflates more when there is something (feed or water) in her crop.
I suppose it may not 'definitely' be air, but it seems to be.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Artsy said:


> It's completely mobile. Touching it, even gently moves it. There's no resistance and she can easily swallow it and it will slowly re-inflate. It inflates more when there is something (feed or water) in her crop.
> I suppose it may not 'definitely' be air, but it seems to be.


So I am clear, are you saying sometimes she swallows and then it will completely disappear, and then it re-inflates a short time later, and when this happens if you feel the area there is no firm lump, like a pea inside?

Karyn


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

Yes, she swallows it, it disappears, usually within a few seconds it slowly re-inflates. There is no hardness anywhere. The skin is thin over it and touching it very gently with my fingertip moves it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Artsy said:


> Yes, she swallows it, it disappears, usually within a few seconds it slowly re-inflates. There is no hardness anywhere. The skin is thin over it and touching it very gently with my fingertip moves it.


Sometimes they can get a condition called a torn or ruptured airsac, this is usually shows up lower in the neck area (airsacs are part of the bird's respiratory system), this is the first time I have seen an air leak isolated below the beak like this. These small tears almost always heal on their own in a few days, but it is really important you are sure it is air and not something firm that shifts and then shifts back.

Karyn


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

I am sure it is not firm. Would it be an airsac problem when she can swallow it...? I've looked online at ruptured airsacs and they seem way bigger and more obvious and not something the bird can do anything about.
I'm just not sure if I should continue feeding her as usual, if I should attempt to 'burp' her, if I should feed only warm water for a while...
I appreciate everyone's input, but I'm really at a loss as of what to do as there are so many different possibilities.


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

Aha! Got perfect footage for you! This should help to understand what's going on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C20U3aJL8TA
She bobs her head to swallow it down, then it creeps back up.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Artsy said:


> Aha! Got perfect footage for you! This should help to understand what's going on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C20U3aJL8TA
> She bobs her head to swallow it down, then it creeps back up.


OK, perfect, I can see what's happening. Obviously there is a small tear in there, but this is not air that is in her crop, but in her neck. Right now I wouldn't do much, or worry too much, but monitor it and let's see if it resoles on its own. Let's also see what Phil and Pidgey have to say a little later. I would however, get some of the Metronidazole that has been mentioned to have on hand. Texas is a big place, are you anywhere near a major city?.., we may be able to make a suggestion where you can get some Metronidazole.

Here are a couple of links that you may have now already read, and this little guy is a little older now, but some of the information will still be relevant.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/feeding-help-needed-for-newly-hatched-pigeons-47336.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/help-egg-is-hatching-and-i-dont-have-a-clue-47170.html

While you start to work on weaning him, you may want to consider moving to the feeding method Spirit Wings posted for you earlier.

Karyn


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

Thank you very much. I hope that's all it is and the the issue will resolve itself. I've fed her twice since I started this thread and she seems to still be eating fine.


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

Thank you all for your kind feedback and help. Unfortunately, within the past 3 hours, the dove passed away. I'm not sure what was wrong with her...the last moments I held her she seemed a little bit tired, but her usual self.
I'm sure whatever killed her was due to my own well-meaning inexperience. I feel absolutely horrible about her death. In the small amount of time I had her I came to love and respect her and she will always have a special place in my heart. I hope no more orphans come knocking on my door.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artsy,


What are casually called poops of course have two components - the fecal matter, and, the urates.

In Birds, these are excreted from seperate sources which converge, but, excreted at the same time.

We did not get any decent clear close up images showing the Dove's poops, but, since you had been able to see them, were the Urates ( which are normally a White 3 dimensional paste ) like flat thin paint? And or were they tinged yellow in color?

Looked to me like they may have been, but, the images were not clear or close up to say for sure.


Far as the 'bubble', sometimes they can have air or gas in their Crop ( from fermenting adhering foods which have not passed and or which are stuck on to the side of the Crop somewhere, from mixing the formula as pidgey insists one do, and hence my disappointment with that ) or feom complications secondary to Canker in the Crop where badly made formula similarly can and will adhere or get stuck and rot and feremt from there, making by-products which can include Gas ) and when being fed formula, this Bubble can rise to the top in being displaced by the volume of formula the Crop is then holding, without it being a result of a ruptured Air Sac, since it is in the Crop, and, in rising can inflate the upper area of the Esophagus to some degree...which is what appears to have been represented in the video.

Babys or youngsters when coming down with illness in the Nest, are rejected by their Parents, and the Parents stop feeding the Baby or youngster, even if continueing to feed the sibling, and, soon, the rejected one becomes frantic in wishing to be fed and watered, which easily leads them to tumble from the Nest, and, to face whatever follows.

These Babys or youngsters then, when people find them, are already ill, and, their illness can continue to advance under the person's care, without the person being familiar enough with symptoms, to realize it, untill it becomes obvious somehting is wrong, and, by then, there may not be much time left for finding or implimenting a cure.

Seperate from this, if related, poor formula making practices can and will cause problems and cause illness, or materially add to any existing Crop or upper GI troubles, which similarly, is not noticed by the person untill it is advanced enough to be come conspicuous in some way.


Let us know on what you recall of the urates?


Sorry this went this way.


My own guess is that this was not your doing or your fault, but, that is so often the case, this little Dove was on the ground to begin with, because it was developing an illess ( Canker, most likely ), and, this was not noticed untill various aspects of the symptoms had advanced to a conspicuous degree.

By then, with ones this young, there might not be much time left to try and remedy the condition, even if or when a correct diagnosis is able to be made.


Phil
Lv


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## Artsy (Jun 24, 2011)

There was no yellow in the utares. There was no foul smell from her mouth. The 'bubble' had to appeared to have gone away just before she died (I put her to bed in another room around 10 and checked on her to find her dead at 1 am so I don't know when she passed). 
Regardless of whether me being an idiot caused her demise, I'd rather not be an 'I told you so' tool in the middle of a member dispute.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artsy, 


I am sorry if I was somehow not clear.


Any instance of someone finding a downed Baby or youngster, is an instance where those presuming to advise, ought to be inquiring for details which can help form an impression of whether the Bird is already ill, or was already ill, when found.

Many times, such Birds ARE already ill when found, and, that is why they were on the ground, instead of being IN the Nest...on top of this, incorrect formula mixing and preperation can contribute to causing illness or fatatality in a completely Healthy Baby or youngster, or, can a nd will make worse, any already existing problems or infections the Bird may have already, in the upper GI...and or in matters of global Hydration and it's effects on their ability to overcome an existing or on-going illness.


I do not believe, nor was I suggesting, that you had caused this young Dove to die.

I was saying, that wrong methods of formula prep will at best, allow someone to 'get away with it' sometimes, and, the rest of the time, can or will make problems, cause illness or make existing illness worse...and that wrong formula prep methods can lead to fataility even in a totally Healthy Baby or Youngster, for that matter.


I do not know what your Dove died from, but, if I had to guess, I would guess a protozoan illness coupled with Bacterial or systemic Bacterial illness.


A young Dove would not tend to go downhill as fast as yours did, from eating and squeaking and being active, to being dead, in a day or so, form Canker or Giardia alone.

Cat caught and escaped youngsters, on or about day three, or maybe day four, will often do this - appear to be alright enough for a few days, then, "bam" they go down fast and are gone in half-a-day or so.


So...I am not hinting of any fault to be found with you.

I am advocating intelligent and informed interest on the part of self appointed advise-givers here, and, that the correct methods of preparing formula should be observed and explained to those new to it, so as to help avoid problems which incorrect methods will reliably cause...on top of whatever else the B aby or Youngster already has going on.


Phil
Lv


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