# Help with 2 day old baby diamond doves!



## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

I work at a pet store and our diamond doves laid eggs and they hatched without anyone noticing (somehow). We couldn't keep them in the store so i decided to take them home, the parents were caring for them, but they can't be any more than a day or 2 old. 
Right now I am keeping them in a box on "Carefresh" bedding with a heat lamp on them and I picked up some "Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding formula" for all baby birds but I hadn't tried feeding any of them that yet.
I just want to make sure I do everything i need to so they stay alive, how often should they be fed, how much heat, etc.
I have a lot of experience caring for other small animals, but never birds, so any help is appreciated!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Couldn't you have taken the parents just until they are weaned. Very hard to hand feed babies that small. They would have a much better chance with the parents raising them.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

I could not, It is a large chain store with a strict manager, I could not "borrow" birds that are for sale as merchandise, also the eggs shouldn't have even made it that far since it is "store policy" not to keep any eggs, and none of us in my department wanted to see the baby birds discarded, so this is the best chance they have. They have all been eating the kaytee exact, i am just not sure how much and how often I should be feeding them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Too bad they couldn't have just placed them in a back room for a few weeks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe this will help
http://www.diamonddove.info/bird05_Raising.htm


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

thank you so much, that page helped a lot, thanks to the picture i know what a full crop looks like and all three of the babies doves have one, i'll be sure to keep checking them to make sure their crops stay full.
I know its a shame as well about not keeping them in the back, it was very bad timing on their part, the district manager is doing his monthly visit and if he saw them in the back he would not be happy.
Thanks again and i'll do everything I can to keep them alive.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just wondering..............what will you do about the babies during the day while you are at work? They need to be fed every time their crop empties, which could be every couple of hours. They also must be kept warm enough or the cannot digest the food, and will become very sick.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what store is this?


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

i dont live alone, i live with my boyfriend and one of us is always here as we work different hours. hes agreed to help with the babies as well.
and believe me these birds are not the only animals we care for, we've taken in a lot of other animals in need, this is just our first time with birds.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

by the way, they've all made it through the night and they've all got full crops right now from eating the supplement, i got up every couple of hours to check on them.
they are being kept warm with a heat lamp and a thermometer reading high temperatures. there is even water in there to keep the humidity right (as the website said that jay sent me).


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ashel891 said:


> i dont live alone, i live with my boyfriend and one of us is always here as we work different hours. hes agreed to help with the babies as well.
> and believe me these birds are not the only animals we care for, we've taken in a lot of other animals in need, this is just our first time with birds.


what is the name of the store. ?


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

i left the name out specifically because i didn't want to cause problems.
don't think im not going to do anything though. I already plan to contact the corporate office in case anything like this happens again. Me and everyone else in my department does not agree with this policy, but our store is lucky to have a dedicated staff in that department that does everything they can to take care of the animals, even if it comes from our own pocket, and even if the managers are too strict to stray from the rules.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ashel891 said:


> i left the name out specifically because i didn't want to cause problems.
> don't think im not going to do anything though. I already plan to contact the corporate office in case anything like this happens again. Me and everyone else in my department does not agree with this policy, but our store is lucky to have a dedicated staff in that department that does everything they can to take care of the animals, even if it comes from our own pocket, and even if the managers are too strict to stray from the rules.


The rule is what bothers me, this is suppose to be a pet store? most times the pet/s in question are taken in the back to spend some time either getting better or in this case feeding young. I would really like to know the chains name, so I can take my business elsewhere. can you please private message it to me. I will not relay publicly what it is to respect your situation


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Thank you ashel, you are a good apple. , this does seem to be an individual manager thing. and I can say this manager needs a different job.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Bless you for helping these babies. The store's policy infuriates me. All the chicks needed was a few weeks with their parents to guarantee they would grow up strong and healthy. My baby diamond doves are 3 weeks old and already eating on their own, though dad still feeds them a couple times a day. BTW, diamond dove eggs hatch in just 14 days so it doesn't take long for them to produce chicks if eggs are overlooked. In the future you should give the hens fake eggs as soon as they lay. Foys Pigeon & Pet Supply sells fake canary eggs that are about the right size. If you take eggs away without giving them fake ones to sit on, the hens will lay too often which is detrimental to their health.

On the upside, if the chicks survive you will have some delightful, friendly doves that will be your friends for life. Best of luck with them.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

OMG...this manager needs more than a "different job". Are you kidding me he would throw babies away?!?!?!?!
please tell us the store and name of manager. I've read of horrendous practice regarding sick animals. (I get sick just thinking about this) All I can say it was major chain pet stores that were involved.
I do not blame you Ashel for not causing problems but.....this manager really needs to be reported to higher management or the media!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Please keep us updated on their progress. I wish you the best of luck with them. 
Oh..............and pics later on as they grow would be great.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

I remember reading on another forum about people trying to raise baby pigeons that young, they said most don't make it and die around 15-20 days old, the general consensus there was that they don't get their natural immunity, as when fed by the parents.

Then I read the MacMilk formula posted here,and they advise adding a little amount of feces to the formula fed to very young baby pigeons. Although there was no explanation there, I always thought this might have something to do with boosting the babies' natural immunity, exposing them to some bacteria, as they would normally be exposed when fed by the parents.



> For birds 1-3 days post-hatch:
> ...It’s essential to add a small amount of feces from a healthy adult conspecific; the younger the bird, the more urgent this is. Add it to two feedings per day. As soon as it’s added, consider the food contaminated; discard any leftovers and clean all implements thoroughly...



I posted this in this thread in the hope that it might help increase the baby doves' chances of survival. 
I've never actually had to feed babies that young, so I was wondering if someone with more experience can confirm or deny this?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jondove said:


> I remember reading on another forum about people trying to raise baby pigeons that young, they said most don't make it and die around 15-20 days old, the general consensus there was that they don't get their natural immunity, as when fed by the parents.
> 
> Then I read the MacMilk formula posted here,and they advise adding a little amount of feces to the formula fed to very young baby pigeons. Although there was no explanation there, I always thought this might have something to do with boosting the babies' natural immunity, exposing them to some bacteria, as they would normally be exposed when fed by the parents.
> 
> ...




I have never heard this before, but certainly can't agree with it. Doesn't make sense. No, you don't want to contaminate the food you give to them. If hand reared babies don't make it, it could be for many reasons. Either they are carrying an illness, or the technique could have been wrong. So many things can go wrong. Food to cold and they can't digest it. Too hot and you end up burning their crop. To thick, or too thin. If the babies aren't kept warm enough the food won't be digested and will just sit in their crop and go bad. Some people over feed, or underfeed. If done wrong, you can aspirate the poor things. You must wait for the crop to empty before feeding again, as you do not want to add more food to a crop which is holding old food. It isn't easy to raise baby pigeons from day 1, and even harder with diamond doves. The baby bird formulas that you can buy are fine for this. Safer than trying to make your own formula. But as I've mentioned, the babies must be kept warm enough also.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

To me it makes a lot of sense, babies *do* get some bacteria together with crop milk from their parents, this helps build up their immunity. 

This was posted long ago as a sticky thread on this very forum, even if like I said with no explanation as to why it is needed. I am surprised people haven't even heard of this before.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/macmilk-crop-milk-substitute-15236.html
It's in post #4 "Updated MacMilk Diet", the attached file.

Please, does anyone have any relevant info on this subject? Either way it seems to me like an important matter.

Either it is a thing people should definitely have in mind with very young babies, OR a moderator sould remove that sticky thread, if the information there is not correct.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Where are you supposed to get the poop to add to the formula?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Isn't poo the body's way of getting rid of stuff that it can't use, digest, or that the body finds to be harmful? It's called waste for a reason. I would think that anything coming out that end would be undesirable to put back in the other end. The bacteria found in"milk" has not been excreted to the waste disposal organs, so it must help the immune system of the babies. My opinion only! 

Does this make any sense at all?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, of course being fed by the parents will help to give the babies immunity to things they will be exposed to, but being as these little ones don't have parents now, that isn't going to happen. Yes, they would be better off getting these things from the parent birds, but giving them feces in their formula would not be the way to do it. I think that's a bit over the top. Lots of babies have been raised on baby bird formula that you buy. I'd stick with that.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

I didn't mean to cause controversy.
Just wanted to say they're on day 3, they're growing, filling their crops and emptying it, and leaving behind their OWN poop. They are making a lot of "peeping" noises when theyre hungry, and I've been feeding them about every 2 hours, even overnight. 
2 of them have already opened their eyes and one is walking around a bit, so i think they may have been with their parents for a couple days.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

almondman said:


> Isn't poo the body's way of getting rid of stuff that it can't use, digest, or that the body finds to be harmful? It's called waste for a reason. I would think that anything coming out that end would be undesirable to put back in the other end. The bacteria found in"milk" has not been excreted to the waste disposal organs, so it must help the immune system of the babies. My opinion only!
> 
> Does this make any sense at all?



*Guys read the STICKY thread on Pigeon-Talk, I didn't make this up myself !!!* If this is BS, then I say again, please can a moderator delete it?

Yet to me it makes sense, you can't get crop milk, but it's easier to get hold of some pigeon poo, the only problem being it has to be from a HEALTHY pigeon. It says add a SMALL amount of feces to the formula, so it's not like you're feeding the babies on that.



Jay3 said:


> Where are you supposed to get the poop to add to the formula?


In this case, I understand people even have access to the babies' parents, so getting the right poo shouldn't be any problem.

By the way, I read on a fanciers' forum that pigeons will happily drink their owner's pee, or horse pee, whatever. They might be getting some electrolytes this way. 

Now I'm not saying there aren't better ways of getting electrolytes nowadays, but it kinda proves a point, that pigeons don't seem to agree that "anything coming out that end would be undesirable to put back in the other end".


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ashel891 said:


> I didn't mean to cause controversy.
> Just wanted to say they're on day 3, they're growing, filling their crops and emptying it, and leaving behind their OWN poop. They are making a lot of "peeping" noises when theyre hungry, and I've been feeding them about every 2 hours, even overnight.
> 2 of them have already opened their eyes and one is walking around a bit, so i think they may have been with their parents for a couple days.


That is fabulouse!, what a good job you are doing with those tiny babes. the formula does have digestive enzymes so the poo idea is not needed...lol..


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

jondove said:


> *Guys read the STICKY thread on Pigeon-Talk, I didn't make this up myself !!!* If this is BS, then I say again, please can a moderator delete it?
> 
> Yet to me it makes sense, you can't get crop milk, but it's easier to get hold of some pigeon poo, the only problem being it has to be from a HEALTHY pigeon. It says add a SMALL amount of feces to the formula, so it's not like you're feeding the babies on that.
> 
> ...


WHO would give their pigeons the opportunity to drink ANYTHING'S pee? Where are you getting this stuff? And why would anyone advocate this method when there are great products on the market for just this problem. Why confuse the issue? Sounds like fetish dreams to me

Ashel891 - you have not caused a controversy. If anything, you should feel very good about yourself for doing what you are doing. Thanks for caring, and thanks for taking on all the work involved. Also, thanks to your boyfriend if he's still helping out.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's a great update, Ashel. Sounds like you are doing well with them. Can you post pictures?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jondove said:


> *Guys read the STICKY thread on Pigeon-Talk, I didn't make this up myself !!!* If this is BS, then I say again, please can a moderator delete it?
> 
> Yet to me it makes sense, you can't get crop milk, but it's easier to get hold of some pigeon poo, the only problem being it has to be from a HEALTHY pigeon. It says add a SMALL amount of feces to the formula, so it's not like you're feeding the babies on that.
> 
> ...


Why is this so important to you? It's not needed. There are so many better ways of doing this.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

unfortunately the littlest one past away earlier this evening and the larger one is on his way, i believe they aspirated, as they are and were gasping for air.
I feel so awful and helpless and i tried everything I could do. I wish very much i could have left them with their parents longer.
There is still one baby left and I would really appreciate feeding tips to keep this from happening again. Also, if there are any tips on how to bathe them without stressing them too much, because they do tend to get the formula on their feathers when they eat.

I will be keeping a very close eye on our store birds from now on. If anything ever happens like this again I am going to do everything I can to make sure these baby birds can stay with their parents as long as possible!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh no..how sad....
I found feeding pigeons/doves are so much different than feeding parrots. Please do a search on youtube on feeding baby pigeons. I hope this may help. it helped me.
I see the you are in the USA. I am still disturbed at the attitude of your pet shop manager in regards to babies. What state are you in? I've heard of "rumors" of terrible pet shop managers in the San francisco area....


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

nah not san fran, deep south.
I actually haven't had any problems with how things were handled in the store until now. We've got a vet nearby and we take every sick animal to the vet and we treat with medicine needed, and 9 times out of 10 they fully recover. 
Im afraid in this regard the manager didn't want our store to get "in trouble" since we weren't even supposed to have eggs that long to begin with.
This is all im going to say about the store and its managers anymore. I would much rather focus on doing anything I can to save this last dove.

I have been much more careful feeding since this happened, making sure the exact solution is not too thin, and im using a syringe instead of a spoon or dipping the beak into the cup. I believe they might have sucked up the solution too fast.

I'll keep updating on the progress of the birds. and thanks everyone for any help you can provide.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

ashel891 said:


> nah not san fran, deep south.
> I actually haven't had any problems with how things were handled in the store until now. We've got a vet nearby and we take every sick animal to the vet and we treat with medicine needed, and 9 times out of 10 they fully recover.
> Im afraid in this regard the manager didn't want our store to get "in trouble" since we weren't even supposed to have eggs that long to begin with.
> This is all im going to say about the store and its managers anymore. I would much rather focus on doing anything I can to save this last dove.
> ...


Hi Ashel, sad that one of them passed, dont feel bad, you did more than a lot of folk would & your actions are commended.
Unfortunately, if one has not had experiance or learning with doves or pigeons, using a syringe to feed can very easily lead to aspiration.
Best way to avoid this is to let them feed in as natural a way as possible.
Unlike most birds where the parent drops the food into the youngs beak, young pigeons and doves put their beak in the parents mouths & suck the food from them.
easiest way to do this is using a baby bottle with the teat having a slit in it so they can put their beaks in.
I use a "squeezy jam" bottle. It has a hole the ideal size for young birds, and also has a plastic slit membrane built in on the inside which helps stop as much mess going down the birds front.
either way is ok, whichever is easiest for you and the bird.

Sqeezy jam bottle









Baby bottle


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

i'll have to give that a try and pick up a baby bottle. thank you for the pictures!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

YES exactly QuazaR! I used a tiny (cleaned out) medicine bottle with a rubber bit stretched over the opening with a tiny hole in it so the baby could stick him beak in and eat. (When I used the syringe he was aspirating a bit regardless of my experience carefully hand feeding baby parrots.) A warm slurry of kaytee exact.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Sorry for your loss! It happens even with experience. As others have said already, you did more than most would have. Good luck with the last one and keep us posted.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Why is this so important to you? It's not needed. There are so many better ways of doing this.


I think jondove was pointing out the fact that it is mentioned in a document posted by Terry as being very important.
If this is not the case then it is very confusing to anyone and contradicts our own beliefs & ways.
Ive never read that doc till now, ad never heard ofthatbeingdone, like you I cant say I'd agree with it, and lets be honest, if a new member was to come on and say they had fed their young bird faeces what would be our reply !!!!
It is there in black and white in the document, Hence the importance of querying it.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Quazar said:


> I think jondove was pointing out the fact that it is mentioned in a document posted by Terry as being very important.
> If this is not the case then it is very confusing to anyone and contradicts our own beliefs & ways.
> Ive never read that doc till now, ad never heard ofthatbeingdone, like you I cant say I'd agree with it, and lets be honest, if a new member was to come on and say they had fed their young bird faeces what would be our reply !!!!
> It is there in black and white in the document, Hence the importance of querying it.


To save us all a little time, could you or jondove please post that article here?


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

i just fed the baby with the method that Quazar said and it worked fantastically. Thank you so much, it was easier and the baby has a nice full crop.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

ashel891 said:


> i just fed the baby with the method that Quazar said and it worked fantastically. Thank you so much, it was easier and the baby has a nice full crop.


Good to hear, If you do find you need to clean him a bit, try wiping him down with a warm damp cloth once he has been fed. Most of the formula will wipe of while still soft, saves hardening on, and will be less stressful for him at moment.
Once he is used to being fed in this way, he'll prob try to put beak in bottle every time he sees it lol.



almondman said:


> To save us all a little time, could you or jondove please post that article here?


jondove did post link, but here it is again, you need to open & read the attatched document.

Post concerned,
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=144601&postcount=4

doccument attatched
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4329&d=1153884238


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

oh, and i'll post pictures as soon as i find my camera charger


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Quazar said:


> Good to hear, If you do find you need to clean him a bit, try wiping him down with a warm damp cloth once he has been fed. Most of the formula will wipe of while still soft, saves hardening on, and will be less stressful for him at moment.
> Once he is used to being fed in this way, he'll prob try to put beak in bottle every time he sees it lol.
> 
> jondove did post link, but here it is again, you need to open & read the attatched document.
> ...


I am unable to get either post to open(of course) , but I will have to believe it's there. I still have a hard time believing about the pee, but who knows, we are living in very, very different times Thanks Quazar


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

almondman said:


> I am unable to get either post to open(of course) , but I will have to believe it's there. I still have a hard time believing about the pee, but who knows, we are living in very, very different times Thanks Quazar


Strange, just tried links I posted & both work ok (doc link asks to confirm open with word), heres the link to the original thread, the concerned posts are 1 & 4, both have links to doc 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/macmilk-crop-milk-substitute-15236.html#post144601


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

almondman said:


> To save us all a little time, could you or jondove please post that article here?


MacMilk©: Crop Milk Replacer Recipe


1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food
1 raw egg yolk (16.6 grams)
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)
1/4 teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)
0.62 g calcium carbonate
2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)
1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)
2 drops fish body (omega-3; not cod liver) oil
1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)
25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)


Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Keep the diet in the fridge, taking out and warming only as much as you need for one feeding.

NOTES
*For birds 1-3 days post-hatch: *
It may be necessary to dilute the mix a little more, particularly if they are not being kept at high humidity. * It’s essential to add a small amount of feces from a healthy adult conspecific; the younger the bird, the more urgent this is. Add it to two feedings per day. As soon as it’s added, consider the food contaminated; discard any leftovers and clean all implements thoroughly.* No digestive enzymes need be added to this mix.

In nature, young columbids are fed small amounts often, by their parents. The ‘nursing’ bouts are long in duration. They should NOT be tube-fed, but instead need to ‘work’ for their food by sucking. The process is very reminiscent of mammals suckling, and their chances of survival are much higher if they are fed in this natural manner.

At the end of the first week post-hatch, gradually add a highly digestible grain (be sure that it contains the proper amount of calcium and vitamins) to the food. It must be fully hydrated! E.g., if you’re adding baby cereal or Exact, make a ‘cereal soup’ with water (at least 2 parts water to 1 part cereal/Exact by weight) before adding it to the MMM. Add only a very small amount for the first couple of days, and then at a rate (e.g., 10% per day) that will make the food mostly grain by the end of 15-20 days. Fledglings must be supplemented with hand feedings for as long as they beg (this can be up to 6 weeks or so), even if they are also eating on their own. Weigh them regularly until they’re completely weaned. A high-quality (companion/exotic) finch seed mix is a good choice for self-feeding. Be sure that they have ‘pigeon grit’ (a multimineral grit) and oystershell grit available ad lib.


Vitamins: Vitamin E, as purchased, is too potent for what is required in this diet. Mix one drop of vitamin E (from a 400 IU/ capsule) with 10 drops of corn oil. Shake or stir well. Then, use 1 drop of the diluted vitamin E in the recipe. The remainder can be kept in an airtight container and stored in a cool, dark place. It can be used over the next few days. Because vitamin E degrades, it will have to be mixed fresh after a few days, so don't make too much at once. The amount of B complex required is too small to weigh on a gram scale. The amount required for this recipe is a pinch the size of one or two sesame seeds.


Astrid MacLeod and Janine Perlman, 2004©.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4329


From what I understand it is implied that feces have the role of digestive enzymes, which are already included in Kaytee Exact and other formulas. 

But the first version of that (MacMilk) formula recommended digestive enzymes also. Then in the second (supposedly improved) version they recommend using feces instead, so there must be a reason.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I did read this. I just don't agree that feces is necessary. I've not done that and have raised healthy babies. There are many different opinions out there. It is in this recipe, but it isn't necessary.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ashel891 said:


> unfortunately the littlest one past away earlier this evening and the larger one is on his way, i believe they aspirated, as they are and were gasping for air.
> I feel so awful and helpless and i tried everything I could do. I wish very much i could have left them with their parents longer.
> There is still one baby left and I would really appreciate feeding tips to keep this from happening again. Also, if there are any tips on how to bathe them without stressing them too much, because they do tend to get the formula on their feathers when they eat.
> 
> I will be keeping a very close eye on our store birds from now on. If anything ever happens like this again I am going to do everything I can to make sure these baby birds can stay with their parents as long as possible!


sorry to hear that, they are really hard to feed when that young, what you may want to do is learn how to crop feed using a crop needle..what happens is it fits on the end of a syringe and the "needle" part goes down the back of the throat and in to the crop and you just push the syringe to expell the formula and bam they are fed..it takes only a few seconds. this ensures they get what they need without worry of aspiration, anyone can learn to do this it is just that some think it is hard..but it is soooo easy..and they do not get messy either.. what are or did you use to feed these tiny babes?. here is a picture of crop needles, as a pet person you sound very capable of learning to use one. a vet even can show you how. here is what they look like, I like the curved ones.. you would of used the smallest one.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks jondove. I think my computer is going to taste some pigeon poo pretty soon! So aggravating. 

It is there in green and white, so it is apparently an acceptable practice. My apologies for doubting you.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

almondman said:


> Thanks jondove. I think my computer is going to taste some pigeon poo pretty soon! So aggravating.
> 
> It is there in green and white, so it is apparently an acceptable practice. My apologies for doubting you.


not sure how acceptable, depends on who you talk to, there are cleaner ways of getting them what they need. 

now can we move on from the poo business as this very nice person has lost one and maybe losing the other baby, and it has nothing to do with poop.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> not sure how acceptable, depends on who you talk to, there are cleaner ways of getting them what they need.
> 
> now can we move on from the poo business as this very nice person has lost one and maybe losing the other baby, and it has nothing to do with poop.


Sorry! Of course you're right. Let's move on.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

the baby is doing well
it is taking him longer to empty his crop and im not sure if this is good or bad. ive read that the feedings will be getting less frequent but i wasn't sure if this was why (do they hold on to the food in their crop longer?)

Also, do you think a heat lamp for warmth on top or a heating pad underneath is more effective? i've been using the heat lamp but im afraid it was too bright so i was thinking of switching to a ceramic heater on top, but a heating pad seems to be warm enough too.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

A heating pad (set on low) under part of his box is normally fine.
It gives him the choice to stand over the warm part or the cool part if he feels too hot.
Even if he constantly seems to stand on the cool part, dont turn pad off, often at night they will move if cold, or feel they need more heat.
I have a couple of rescues at the moment, & while none of them are actually ill or really need heat, one just loves to roost on top of my laptop power pack


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ashel891 said:


> the baby is doing well
> it is taking him longer to empty his crop and im not sure if this is good or bad. ive read that the feedings will be getting less frequent but i wasn't sure if this was why (do they hold on to the food in their crop longer?)
> 
> Also, do you think a heat lamp for warmth on top or a heating pad underneath is more effective? i've been using the heat lamp but im afraid it was too bright so i was thinking of switching to a ceramic heater on top, but a heating pad seems to be warm enough too.


yes a heat pad that does not turn off would be good, keep them at 90-95 degrees : they do not digest well if not warm enough, be sure to make the formula a bit thin to move through better.. if there is an issue with slow crop, then you can massage it, but do not feed..let it go down and the next feeding you can try some baby organic apple sauce with the formula so it may move better. oh about the heat lamp..sometimes those can dehydrate small ones without feathers on yet..so I think the bottom heat is better.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

Heres a pictures of the baby, still very tiny, but just fed, he was peeping and squirming while i was trying to take the picture.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

That is amazing.. so tiny!... you are doing such a great job..however it turns out. keep us posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you make like a tent to cover him with to keep the heat in? 
Very cute.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

ashel891 said:


> it is taking him longer to empty his crop and im not sure if this is good or bad. ive read that the feedings will be getting less frequent but i wasn't sure if this was why (do they hold on to the food in their crop longer?)


My understanding is that as they grow their crop grows too, so they take in more food at each feeding and that's why feedings should get less frequent.
But looking at the picture you posted and even though I know doves are smaller than pigeons, the baby looks so tiny. I'm wondering if he's growing as he should? I understand he is 5-6 days old by now and I know they normally grow a lot in the first days of life. 



Jay3 said:


> I did read this. I just don't agree that feces is necessary. I've not done that and have raised healthy babies. There are many different opinions out there. It is in this recipe, but it isn't necessary.





spirit wings said:


> not sure how acceptable, depends on who you talk to, there are cleaner ways of getting them what they need.


I would try to think about this without any preconceptions about "what's dirty and what's clean". By this logic we would never use vaccines either, because the vaccine contains the very virus it is supposed to protect from, thus it is "not clean".

You may raise apparently healthy babies in a sterile bubble, but once they get into the real world they will be prone to every disease out there. Too much cleanliness can be as harmful as too much dirtiness. I read somewhere that studies show too much cleanliness is linked to allergies in humans.
The only question is how to find the right balance between the two.

I am not trying to start a controversy or divert this thread, so I'll not continue on this subject here.


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## Birdbabe (Jan 24, 2006)

Awwww, how precious. Thank you for doing everything you can for this tiny little soul.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jondove said:


> My understanding is that as they grow their crop grows too, so they take in more food at each feeding and that's why feedings should get less frequent.
> But looking at the picture you posted and even though I know doves are smaller than pigeons, the baby looks so tiny. I'm wondering if he's growing as he should? I understand he is 5-6 days old by now and I know they normally grow a lot in the first days of life.
> 
> 
> ...


vaccines are sterilized. I understand what you are saying, the pigeon or dove milk has immunites in it that are hard to replace. The formula only has done a good job of feeding young and has probios and enzymes in it..that is the best we humans can do, and do not recommend puting feces in their formula. hand fed birds grow a bit slower than ones fed by their parent birds if they are healthy and have good feed. It may be interesting if you started your own thread about the subject.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have you considered that by putting feces in a baby pigeons or doves food, that you are also adding germs and bacteria that the baby doesn't need? God knows what it may be carrying. It could work the other way and infect him with something. He will build his immunities just fine.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Can you make like a tent to cover him with to keep the heat in?
> Very cute.


I have been 

I'm also afraid hes not growing as quickly as he should, if we assume that he was only hours old when i took him home (on thursday) he would be a little over 4 days. But he seems active and he is always very excited about eating, so i can only hope for the best!


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## Faith72 (Jun 28, 2011)

Aww, what a cute little baby dove! You are such a wonderful and caring person for bringing this precious baby home and feeding him.  So sorry to hear about your loss of the other one, but it looks like you did everything you could and he just didn't have the strength to go on. 

From the picture, it looks like the little guy is just beginning to grow tiny little feathers on the wings so far, which is a good sign! A small tip on cleanup after feeding - I have found it helpful to use a paper towel slightly moistened with warm water to gently wipe the beak and around the outside of the nostrils after feeding with the bottle/jar feeding method Quazar described. Not too much water on the paper towel though, you don't want excess water getting in the baby's nostrils. This can help prevent food buildup clogging up the nostrils and causing potential breathing problems when the food dries. 

I don't know what size four-day old doves are supposed to be as I am more familiar with baby pigeons, but I am sure one of the other members would be able to give you tips on this. Just keep feeding the little guy and keep him warm and safe - I wish you the best in the care of this precious bird. 

Bless you for being such a kind soul  - Faith


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

OMG that little baby!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He's precious. I wouldn't worry about how fast he is growing, as hand raised do grow slower. As long as he seems healthy every other way.
How is the crop emptying now? You shouldn't feed him til it does. Warmed baby applesause often helps.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

Im sorry I haven't updated in a few days, my internet was down.
Unfortunately the last little bird didn't make it, I was so so sad, and I dont know what happened to him in this case. When I got home from work the other day he seemed fine, squirming and peeping, even standing a little, and i checked on him an hour later and he was gone 
I appreciate everyone's help so much, and I'm glad at least that the babies had a lot of love in their short little lives.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ashel891 said:


> Im sorry I haven't updated in a few days, my internet was down.
> Unfortunately the last little bird didn't make it, I was so so sad, and I dont know what happened to him in this case. When I got home from work the other day he seemed fine, squirming and peeping, even standing a little, and i checked on him an hour later and he was gone
> I appreciate everyone's help so much, and I'm glad at least that the babies had a lot of love in their short little lives.


darn it! was hoping for the best.

usually if they die that sudden and were excited and eating before that, they probably asperated. so sorry. Thanks for letting use know.. you did a good thing.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I am sorry as well, although I cannot say this news is a shock to me. That young a baby is really, really, really hard to keep sustained. If he/she had been 7 or 8 days old, it would have been so much easier.

But for a 2-6 day old, that is so very tricky even for a very experienced Pigeon rescuer. They are so frail and small that so much can go awry, even things which would be minor with an older baby.

Thank for caring and for sure the baby knew you were trying to help, and is in a better place now.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry you lost him. Thanks for trying for him.


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## ashel891 (Feb 24, 2012)

Hey!
Just wanted to post to say that a couple who are very into small birds like finches, doves, pigeons, etc, bought the breeding pair of diamond doves from the pet store, because they were interesting in breeding these great birds.
I'm just really excited that these doves will be able to raise their next set of babies in peace


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's wonderful news. Thanks for letting us know.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Great news. Thanks!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

sorry to hear the sad news on the little one, but good that the parents have got a good home & will be able to raise a family on their own


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Sorry to hear the bad news. You did a very good job with the information you had.

Because diamond doves are very small, many people let them sip from a baby spoon rather than trying more traditional feeding methods. This helps to prevent aspiration. I'm so sorry I didn't read through this post in time to mention this. 
Here, just in case something like this happens again:
http://www.diamonddove.info/bird05_Raising.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Libis, I posted this same link at the beginning of this thread. It looked like a lot of good info.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Libis, I posted this same link at the beginning of this thread. It looked like a lot of good info.


Ok, I guess I missed that. I just felt bad because it doesn't seem like anyone really advocated spoon-feeding and that might have kept them alive if I had read through and mentioned it more loudly. Because I know it works for some of the diamond dove breeders out there...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Libis said:


> Ok, I guess I missed that. I just felt bad because it doesn't seem like anyone really advocated spoon-feeding and that might have kept them alive if I had read through and mentioned it more loudly. Because I know it works for some of the diamond dove breeders out there...


Well most probably don't know about spoon feeding. I didn't know about it, as I have pigeons and not doves. But as the poster was the one looking for help, and was given the link, then it was up to them to read it. It wasn't on you to mention it more loudly. All we can do is try to help, and give what info we have. It's up to the person what they choose to do with it. Still sad though.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Well most probably don't know about spoon feeding. I didn't know about it, as I have pigeons and not doves. But as the poster was the one looking for help, and was given the link, then it was up to them to read it. It wasn't on you to mention it more loudly. All we can do is try to help, and give what info we have. It's up to the person what they choose to do with it. Still sad though.


Still makes me sad, too. I was hoping the second one would live and the OP would have a tame little diamond dove buddy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I know, it's sad when they don't make it. But at least the parents are together, and will be able to raise some happy healthy babies. Try to think about that. Would like to see them grow up.


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