# Wing boils or something else?



## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Squidget seems healthy except for those thing on his wings. They get bigger and bigger. They seem to grow like a mushroom shape. Small yellow blisters form on the edges, dry up and turn hard, blend in, then a few more form and the process starts all over. He was on Baytril for 4 weeks, which helped his weakness but not the wings. They look like large warts, wrinkly and black on the top.
Now he is growing a bald spot on side of his head with two tiny bumps! I wonder if it is the same thing, spreading? His feathers are awful, but that could be because he can't stand or walk.
Any ideas?
Denise


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Denise,

How are you? I have been wondering how Squidget is doing.

Is he on any medication or nutrition.

I can't advise you on what may be going on, but I would get him on garlic caps and such if you haven't, as it is a wonderful natural antibiotic, anti-fungul, that purifies the blood and builds the immune system as well.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Going to need a picture on that one. The yellow blisters are spent leukocytes, indicating that the immune system is fighting something still yet. That's usually the kind of deal that requires a culture being performed (by a vet).

Pidgey


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Could be paratiphoid As wing boils do show up on birds that are effected with it. Do you have meds to treat it. for 5 days.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Yes Treesa, he still gets a garlic cap once a week and acv water once a week, also probiotics and vitamins once a week on his seeds with wheat germ oil. Thanks for asking, I am doing fine right now, except for my GS Dog, he has been costing me all the tax money I made! Vets can't find anything wrong with him, he's had every test possible and is in constant pain! He is now on cortizone, they are thinking it may be spinal.

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you tell us specifically how the wing boils went when you first started treating them? They never completely disappeared, did they?

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Pidgey,

My daughter has my camera right now, but I will get it back and try to take a good pic. I have been trying to pick at them a little each day, but it dosen't seem to be a scab. His feathers seem dry and easy to crack off to me also! But he eats lots and poops good! Sometimes I think he is depressed, because he trys so hard to move and can't!

Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Pidgey,

No they never dissapeared, in fact I think they got bigger! When I took him to vet, she said it was scar tissue, but scar tissue doesn't grow like warts!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I was wondering do Pigeons get a sort of Herpe Virus?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, they can. I don't remember what the symptoms are for that right now (would have to look in the book) but it seems to me that it was far more serious than in us.

Oh, well. Usually you keep up the Baytril until the wing boils are gone for awhile. It might be a good idea to put him back on the Baytril for two months. I just finished one a couple of months ago that took three months to clear them for good. I had to give him a slight overdose of Baytril plus aspirin every day. I also did a regimen of Amoxicillin/Erythromicin for awhile in case it was the L-form. That was vet-directed.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thanks Pidgey,

I will be a little scared of the 2 months on Baytril, as he lost so much weight on 1 month, but I guess I need to try something! He is not sick in anyway but he can't servive if those thing keep growing!

Can you tell me the most reasonable place to order Baytril from?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, in that case, let's work on getting some Cipro (Ciprofloxacin) instead of Baytril (Enrofloxacin) because it's a lot easier on the stomach, they say. And we oughta' let Terry think this one over as well.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

What is Cephalexin? I have 15 capsules at 500mgs left over from my GS Dog, that didn't have an infection after all! And by the way he weighed 111 lbs when prescribed.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cephalexin (Keflex) is a first-generation Cephalosporin, which is a very good antibiotic that also covers a few anaerobic bacteria. It's actually not the "big gun" that the Fluoroquinolones (Cipro, Baytril, Levaquin, etc.) are but it can do things that they can't. It wouldn't be what you'd use for Salmonella (Paratyphoid) but it's pretty doggone useful--don't throw them away!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, after looking it up, I found this page:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=352292&pageindex=4

...which is from an article comparing Cefaclor to other drugs, one of which is Cephalexin. There's actually far more to setting a dosage than you'd normally think. What we see in the formularies are ungodly simplified because of economics. You rarely know for an absolute certainty what (all) you're fighting so you make a guess. Well, it just so happens that different bugs actually could require different dosages. That is, you can take different amounts to achieve different PDCs (Plasma Drug Concentration) and design the protocol to maintain a PDC above the required MIC (Minimum Inhibitory Concentration) in the blood.

This page shows that Cephalexin has demonstrated significant activity against 32 tested species of Salmonella at a 12.5 micrograms per milliliter MIC. That doesn't always mean that it will do that in vivo because the drug's path through the body may not go the route necessary, so to speak. 

Practically speaking, I've never heard anyone (a vet) try to get Salmonella with Keflex but it looks theoretically possible.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Wow Pidgey!

That makes no sense to me lol!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

dnrslucky1 said:


> Yes Treesa, he still gets a garlic cap once a week and acv water once a week, also probiotics and vitamins once a week on his seeds with wheat germ oil. Thanks for asking, I am doing fine right now, except for my GS Dog, he has been costing me all the tax money I made! Vets can't find anything wrong with him, he's had every test possible and is in constant pain! He is now on cortizone, they are thinking it may be spinal.
> Denise



Hi Denise,

Squidget should be getting a garlic capsule everyday, for rehab. It will make quite a difference rather then once a week.

I'm so sorry to hear about your GS Dog, that has to be so hard seeing him in pain and not knowing what it could be.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thanks Treesa,

I did not know garlic everday but I will start now! And yes it is hard not knowing why GS Dog is in pain!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

dnrslucky1 said:


> Wow Pidgey!
> 
> That makes no sense to me lol!


Well, think of it this way--you already understand that when you're sick enough with an infection that you need an antibiotic, they prescribe them in various sizes. You might get a 250 milligram, a 500 milligram or a 750 milligram pill for instance. Some of the choice is dependent on your physical size and some is on what the doctor suspects that you might have. Some bugs are effectively taken care of by a level of medication that another bug might require twice as much of with the same drug. Sometimes you just go for broke and use the maximum amount of drug that the body can stand. Just depends. 

That chart illustrates how different drugs scored in vitro (in the test tube) against different pathogens (bugs) at different levels. It does show that Keflex (Cephalexin) was strong enough to take care of the 32 different species of Salmonella that they tested it against at the 12.5 micrograms per milliliter.

Now, all that's pretty much useless to you but that drug is a very good drug to have and it works well in birds. I haven't seen anything like you're describing with Squidget though so I don't know if I'd use it or not. I was hoping Terry had seen something like that.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Denise,

I haven't seen anything quite like what you are describing, and it doesn't sound like paratyphoid boils to me. I think Cynthia posted awhile back about something that sounds similar .. black, warty looking growths. I'll see if I can find that thread in a little bit .. blood warts or something to that effect.

The paratyphoid cases that I have treated all required a lengthy course of Baytril .. at least one month and often two months or longer. I do understand your concern on putting Squidget on such a harsh drug for so long. 

New England Pigeon Supply appears to still have Baytril available though many of the others do not. Ellen (RELofts) tried the Tribrissin (not sure that is how it is spelled) is now being offered as a Baytril replacement at one of the large supply houses and had very good success with it in clearing up some problems with her birds lately. I need to go do some research and see if it really is a good Baytril replacement, but suspect the supply house did at least some homework before putting it out there as a replacement.

As to pigeons getting herpes type viruses, I believe they can and also seem to recall that fellow member here, Daniel, had a pigeon with it.

I really hope Squidget will continue to do well and that we can figure out what's going on with those boils or warts or whatever they are.

All my best to you and Squidget.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

I'm sorry to hear that Squidget continues with unresolved health issues. Definitely continue with the supportive natural remedies, jmo, while seeking medicinal remedies as well. Looks like there are 3 pigeon supply houses still carrying Baytril, New England Pigeon Supply, Global, and Foy's. However, out of the three, only Global claims to sell the medication in a factory sealed bottle, meaning that the other's transfer it into their own bottles for resale. I would recommend going w/the factory sealed one so as to be sure of the expiration dates myself. But I'm including all three links regardless, I'm assuming that you will use the 10% liquid format for better absorption:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=6&catalogno=1030-009

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/respiratory/index.html

http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/catalog.php?page=2&category=Antibiotics

I also wish that there were an avian vet that you had more confidence in close by and am wondering what the chances are of finding someone a little more attentive to your situation? Or is this something that you've been through and have determined that this is the best choice for the area you are in?

Jeese, and your GS dog, as if not enough, so sorry that the poor baby is in pain, dogs can be so expressive, I'm sure this must be difficult.

Anyway, hope that you are doing well and your health is solid as a rock!

fp


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Denise,

Cynthia's posts concerning the blood warts that Terry mentioned are contained in the following thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10696

Sorry all the animals are having health problems....hugs and best wishes to you all.

Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Lin Hansen said:


> Cynthia's posts concerning the blood warts that Terry mentioned are contained in the following thread: Linda


Thank you Linda .. you really are the thread wizard of Pigeon-Talk!

Terry


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thank you, Terry.... 

Linda


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Sorry it has taken me so long to get these pics, but I was having problems with my cameras soft wear!

The bloodwart things sound similar except these don't bleed, unless I pick at them and then it is very small bleeding. There is very little info to be found about Bloodwarts.

Here are the pics and you can click on them twice to make them bigger.
http://community.webshots.com/album/550022978MbozLv

Another thing I found out about the bloodwarts, is they they go away on their own, but can grow to the size of a walnut!

Thanks for looking at these, I am hoping someone has seen something like this before and may have some info for me!

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you detail all the components of Squidget's diet over the last few months?

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I will try but must think about a little


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'll tell you what I'm thinking. It may be possible that Squidget has been suffering some kind of nutritional absorption disorder. The state of the feathers is bothering me. Now, I know when they're handled too much, the feathers will suffer and he gets handled A LOT for obvious reasons.

But, anyway, I'd like to see how he responds to supplementing his diet with a daily meal of Kaytee (you can tube-feed that one) for a month or so.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

His main diet is a good quality Pigeon seed mix from the local farm bureau, I add safflower seeds and hulled sunflower seeds to it. Squidget only eats small seeds, always leaves the peas and corn alone. Also Pigeon grit and millet sprays are always available.

Once a week I put wheat germ oil, vitamins and probiotics on his seeds, which he will eat for 2 days, at that time he gets acv water also and a garlic cap.

Many mornings he shares my breakfast of toast and eggs, he loves toast and also some egg shells. Once in a while he will peck some shredded cheese.

The only thing that has ever changed in his diet is when I stopped the KT baby formula, and these started before that.

Thank You Pidgy
Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

You are correct about the feather condition, they seem to worsen as time goes on. His feathers crack off before they grow in all the way. He has never grown feathers on his belly or under his wings.

Could you see the yellow bubble like things that grow on the edges of the tumor things? Those things grow like a mushroom cap with a root to his wing joints!

I will try a daily feeding of KT and see if it will help. I have often wondered if he has trouble absorbing nutrition correctly! He is cold alot of the time, he just shakes as tho he is freezing after his bath.

Thank You for your time Pidgey,

Denise


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Denise, those boils look nasty. I have no idea what it could be. Did you ever have a culture done from the fluid in them? 


Reti


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Reti,

They do not have fluid in them they are hard tissue spreading wart like things.

They were not this big the last time the vet looked at them. I was told then it was scar tissue and would never go away. But scar tissue wouldn't grow I don't think.

I have had Squidget to 3 differant Vets, including x-rays taken.

And yes they are awfull looking!

Denise


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, sorry about that, I thought they were blistering.
Still, the vet could have taken a biopsy. It would show what type of tissue they are.
They don't look like scar tissue and scar tissue from what?

Is there a chance Squidget is getting too much vitamin A? Too much of it can also cause bad feathering and other problems.

Reti


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Reti,

Those yellow things that popout of the sides are like blisters, I was pinching a fresh one tonight! What would cause to much vit A? I am not sure! If I had a better vet arround here I would take him in! But everyone I took him to said same thing!

Denise


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Among other things Hypervitaminosis A can cause coarse, sparse hair even total loss of hair, brittle nails and protruding of the eyes, painful joints, precocious skeletal development in children and long bone thickening in adults.
Vitamin A is liposoluple, it is stored in the liver, too much of it can cause all those suptoms and even more.

I am not saying this is what squidget has, it was just a thought seeing his messy feathers. 
What you are describing definately doesn't sound like scar tissue.
The blisters you are pinching, do they have fluid in them?

Reti


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## Guest (May 5, 2006)

The thread about Squidget is alarming on a number of levels. In 95% of the cases of paratyphoid, Baytril, the drug of choice, will be able to push the symptoms back. This doesn’t mean that there is a 100% cure. Birds that have recovered from an attack shed the bacteria for months afterwards. In 5% of the cases, the birds show no symptoms again but become carriers. Often, there can be a recurrence of the infection. In Squidget’s case, there has either been a recurrence or the original infection never went away and it’s impossible to say why. It could be that the dosage of Baytril never reached therapeutic levels leaving behind more resistant bacteria. It could be that Squidget simply had a recurrence.

It’s bothersome in another vein because the bird was taken to three vets and there was doesn't appear to have been a diagnosis of a second infection or a continuance of the first. 

It’s also alarming because Squidget’s body is shedding bacteria into the house environment and salmonella is also an airborne disease. Denise is at risk, Her dog is at risk and her family is at risk to coming down with it and will be at risk long after Squidget is gone because the salmonella will still be floating around in the air along with dust plus it can be inhaled from dried droppings.

Denise, you had mentioned in a previous post that your dog was in pain even after medications. Is the pain in the joints? There is a form of salmonella called the articular type and it resides in joints and does cause substantial pain. There wasn't much information given about your dog so this is entirely a stab in the dark and I hope I'm completely off base.

Anyway, that’s what I think has been going on and it's a very sad situation.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Pigeonrehab and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. Do you have any suggestions as to further treatment for Squidget that may help? Perhaps identifying the specific type of salmonella and then a different antiobiotic that may be more effective in eradicating it? This little bird is a much loved "member" here, and I know we all would be delighted to have any suggestions that may help Squidget get better. Your statements that Squidget is suffering and can never recover are, indeed, alarming. 

Terry


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## Guest (May 5, 2006)

Thank you very much for the welcome. 

Baytril is the drug of choice for paratyphoid. If I'm correct in my assessment of the situation, it didn't work and that again, is because of two possibilities; resistant bacteria from the first infection or Squidget is in the 5% group that become carriers. If this is resistance, it's doubtful that another treatment with the same drug would be effective in eradicating the organism. If Squidget is in the 5% group, I don't honestly know if anything would work so Baytril would probably be useless at this point in time.

You could try Clavamox orally but that comes with the dangers of side effects such as liver damage and yeast infection. If that is going to be used, it should be accompanied with a probiotic like Benebac plus Nystatin to try and prevent a yeast infection. In my opinion, there can already be liver damage from the salmonella so there is nothing to lose in trying Clavamox. 

The prior posts don't indicate that cultures were taken and grown in a medium in order to pin down the type of bacteria and if they are gram positive or gram negative although my educated guess is that this is salmonella, a gram negative organism. In the ideal situation and at the minimum, skin scrapings from the ulcerations should have been taken for analysis and it doesn't appear that this was done. The boils (blisters) could be devoid of bacteria so it should be taken from the tissues around these areas. 

Baytril is very effective against gram negative organisms and Clavamox is very effective for both gram negative and gram positive (and additionally, for anerobic forms) so in the absence of a culture having been taken, my choice would now be the Clavamox. There are sulphur based drugs but at this point, I'm not sure how effective they would be.

This is all guesswork based on the pictures and prior posts. It seems to be a reasonable conclusion but there is no substitute for lab analysis and without that, suggestions given over the internet including mine, should be considered invalid, just good guesses.

I'm aware that Squidget is a much beloved bird here and that he has been heroic in trying to survive. Denise should be much applauded for her attempt to keep the bird going but if this is a stubborn salmonella, there is an element of danger for everyone around Squidget and so a logical prognosis based on laboratory analysis has to be the way to go now. It's a very serious situation that has extended beyond Squidget's immediate needs.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I guess that begs the question as to whether this particular set of feathers has become this way due to the excessive handling & washing or whether they've become that way due to growing badly from the follicle. Denise will have to answer that question, though. I don't think that has anything to do with the lesions on the elbows (juncture of the radius/ulna pairing with the humerus) if that's the case, however.

For your information, pigeonrehab, this bird developed badly from the egg which may have been the result of vertical transmission. It's possible that some of the suspected Salmonella could be L-form and perhaps that hampered eradication efforts. 

As to Salmonella being motile, it's a fairly limited mechanism for mobility. Their movements appear more like Brownian motion than actually swimming in a straight line towards a distant goal. That's a trivial point when it's considered that the bloodstream carries them around, though.

Pidgey


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## Guest (May 5, 2006)

Pidgey,
I can't comment on your post directly but you are correct. I am correct too. Everyone who posted to this thread have valid points. This is all entirely an academic accumulation of discussions in the absence of a solid diagnosis based on sound laboratory analysis.

Diseases don't always take the same route in every situation. They can be circuitous in their spread and in addition, there can be secondary effects from other maladies due to the severe insult to the immune system and genetic predispositions. To add insult to injury, there can be more than one form of salmonella attacking a system. 

I have a URL for a very good discussion of salmonella and recommend it highly to everyone:

http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html


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## Guest (May 5, 2006)

List of avian veteranarians in Michigan:

http://tinyurl.com/oy2ql


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for your response Pigeonrehab. I was asking about possible different treatments as I came across this: http://www.avianbiotech.com/diseases/salmonella.htm, and frankly, wouldn't have thought of at least a couple of these drugs as being a good salmonella treatment.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

Just saw your recent pics of Squidget, and how can anyone see them and not feel for Squidget? I know what a caregiver extraordinaire you are and think that the idea of cross pollination, while possible, would probably be a long shot.

Bringing Squidget to three different vets and still not finding resolution is demoralizing.....although I'm wondering if you had specific tests to ask for if any of the three would agree to simply do the test?

How is he doing overall? Is he temperament wise much the same as always?
Sending healing thoughts your way for the both of you....

fp


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## Guest (May 5, 2006)

All of the drugs that were listed on the site you referenced are in the sulphur family. This is not to say they aren't good. At the moment, there's no way of knowing. The only way to find out which antibiotic will work is to culture the bacteria and subject it to different ones in order to determine which will be the most efficacious. 

Normally, this process would not be the norm for a bird that is being treated by a rehabilitator because of the high costs involved but here, there is probably already a drug resistance and that makes it the only viable option. If the owner is willing to take on these costs, there is a link to avian vets in Michigan posted above and that is the only kind of vet to visit if Squidget is to have any chance of a recovery.

I'm still greatly concerned for the owner's dog and the rest of the family.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Kanamycin and Gentamycin are Aminoglycosides, not sulfa drugs.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/A/Antibiotics.html

Pidgey


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## Guest (May 5, 2006)

I thought they were both sulphates but I do stand corrected.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, yes, they are, but that's not the form of the drug--that's just a way to formulate them for uptake. There is a class of "sulfa/sulpha" drugs and that's what I thought you meant. I think that webpage tells something of the various pharmacologies of the different types. I think a sulfa drug usually starts with the word as a prefix like "sulfamethoxasole".

Pidgey

Well, now that I read some stuff, I'm not real sure what the "sulfate" does to the efficacy of the drug. Oh, well, another research project!


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## Guest (May 5, 2006)

Denise,

If you read this latest series of posts, the bottom line is that the answers to what is truly going on with Squidget most probably lie with an avian vet who has the expertise and the ability to do extensive testing. You have not hit a dead end as long as you go to this kind of vet. I gave you a URl for avian vets in Michigan. There isn't anything I can add to what has already been written. This is a complicated problem and it's been taken to its limit here. You need to go further.

Whatever happens, at least you will know by going to an avian vet, you tried your best and will have done everything humanely and medically possible for Squidget. I think you are a remarkable person for what you have done for this bird.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I have thought about how to reply many times! And I still cannot do it!

I am sorry! It is to hard! Yes my dog is having joint problems that there is no explaination for!

I know what the humane thing to do is but I need some time!

Thank You Pigeonrehab
Denise


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Denise,

I don't remember what breed your dog is and how old the dog is, could you remind me on this. Also, how is Squidget in terms of his general carriage, does he seem more depressed than he was previously?

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

My dog Lucky Is a five year old German Shepherd, who has always been healthy. He has had x-rays and blood tests, I was told he should be a very healthy dog because there is nothing wrong with him. He was tested for everything possible and as of now he is on cortizone, but still not better.

This is so hard for me I am crying because I know what needs to be done.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Denise, 

I'm so sorry that you are going through this very difficult time Is there concern that your dog has contracted salmonella indirectly from Squidget?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

I grew up with German Shepards, and they have a problem w/bad hips in general that is just part of the breed. In fact, we got the niece and grand-daughtor of the 'grand victor' of the year--it's been a while, but I think that's what they were called. Of course, my Labrador started showing aching joints and loss of bladder control at the age of five. I had to put her on Ecotrin(they can't have aspirin according to my vet at the time who is well known in the area for his work w/wolves), and antihistamines for the loss of bladder control. The ecotrin is over the counter and gave old Sara relief from the joint pain. I had no birds to speak of at the time.

Is Squidget still a happy camper as he's been in the past?

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

After reading Pigeonrehab's posts. I think it could be a possibility! I love my Squidget to death, but when do you draw the line? He can't walk or take of himself.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

dnrslucky1 said:


> After reading Pigeonrehab's posts. I think it could be a possibility!


Hi Denise, did you mention this to your vet...did they test for bacterial infection in Lucky? Perhaps this should be restated to your vet and see if he/she thinks it's possible.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

I can't really answer that question for you, but I think that one person's opinion on the topic shouldn't answer the question for you either.

If you believe in your heart after thinking about it with a clear heart and mind, then you have to follow your heart. Just think that you could find yourself down the road feeling badly about a decision that you went into from an emotional perspective without getting to the same place intellectually. Just cautioning a blend of the two here. 

The other issue raise was having an avian vet look at Squidget. Were any of the vets listed near you?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if it were that easy to contract Paratyphoid, you wouldn't have that many people over the earth keeping pigeons anymore. The fact is that it's very hard to chase the true nature of the disease down in the REAL literature with respect to its zoonotic potential (the ability to cause clinical disease in other species). For one thing, humans usually suffer from Salmonella pulloram or Salmonella gallinarum.

If we take the things that we read about the Salmonella species to the extreme, you'd think we'd all have died long ago and the world would be one big Salmonella cesspool. In fact, we really don't see that. I can't even think of one case in all the stuff that I've read about it where a human has even contracted Salmonellosis from his or her pigeons. Usually, when people get the normal strains (from chickens), it usually presents as an intestinal bug complete with diarrhea and that sort of thing.

When you read about how it works in pigeons, the usual forms that go after the organs and nervous system are highly progressive and result in the mortality of the bird quite quickly. The joint (arthritic) form is more slow and the bird often gets over it on his or her own anyway. It's not typical for it to stabilize as Squidget has seemed to do. And I haven't read anywhere that the joint form of Paratyphoid has presented in the way that Squidget's elbows have ulcerated.

I've known plenty of dogs to get arthritic without the presence of pigeons or other Paratyphoid vectors. One of those dogs, I owned myself in the first half of its life. The folks who took over his care later dealt with its arthritis with Glucosamine and Chondroitin and it seemed to work.

Now, it would be nice to run a culture on those elbows but that might be more difficult to get a vet to do that than you might think--you're just going to have to ask one.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you fp,

My dogs hips are perfect, as per x-rays. They think it is something spinal because of his pain. Squidget is happy part of the day, most of the time he is shivering or sleeping, unless someone is holding him.

OMG! That sounds bad, but right now he is leaning on his side trying to preen himself.

This is gona be very hard for me to do even though I really knew,that someday I would need to make this desicision, but I never thought it would be this soon.

This is breaking my heart, but I know it must be done. How can one little bird endanger a whole household? I need to think some more on this.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you Pidgey

Why do you think it would be hard to get a culture?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Denise, while Ballsy isn't as bad off as Squidget, she is still pretty bad off. Her legs don't function well, although she can some how kind of scramble around and ambulate w/them in that way. There is a nervous tiche that never went away. Her feathers are a mess, and she didn't molt when the rest of the birds did. Just don't think her body had the extra reserves to do so. 

Having said all this about her condition, when I open the front door she starts cooing to see me, and will coo w/such a rhythmic cadence that I am always touched by it. She always seems to do so when I do anything at all for her. It's her way of saying thanks. Just saying all this cause she sure doesn't have the life that she used to, but none the less seems to appreciate the limitations of her life here.

I seriously doubt that Squidget is endangering your whole household. But again, it is truly your decision. If it is too much for you at this juncture, no one can tell you what your decision should be.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, some of the yellow stuff that you see in the blister like portions is a collection of spent leukocytes (blood cells that fight infections) and you usually won't find the germs causing the problem in there. Normally, you have to get in and scrape some skin or bone in the vicinity of the problem. What you may have an even harder time of is getting the vet to do the job. Sometimes they'll make the decision not to do it for you based on their own sense of economics. That may be something that you need to force him to give you a price on.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Denise,

I think the answer(s) here will lie with finding a really qualified avian vet. Don't be thinking about making hard and irreversible decisions about Squidget or your dog right now .. the jury is still out.

I have literally hundreds and hundreds of birds through my place each year and many of them are so very, very ill. Thankfully neither I nor my furred or feathered pets have contracted anything nor become ill because of anything the birds could have, would have, might have brought in. Yes, you need to be educated and aware of the possibilities, but let's just not go there yet.

I have some EXTREMELY disabled pigeons here, and I know that they have a decent quality of life .. certainly not perfect because it's impossible to make it that way for them .. would they be better off dead .. I don't think so. As FP posted, they seem to know that without you/me/FP/whoever that their life would be at an end .. and they don't want that .. they are happy to be alive and have made the best of their physical handicaps ..

JMO ..

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*My blunt 2 cents...*

I have followed you and Squidget since the beginning and I know how much you care and how much time you have devoted to his care. No other pigeon could have asked for more...

You have some tough decisions to make:

-Are you willing to have further testing done on Squidget?
-Can you find an Avian Vet to do the tests?
-Think finances
-Any further testing to do on your dog to help with any decision you make?

Squidget has been our "Poster Pigeon"...you both have touched our hearts deeply...

DO NOT MAKE A HASTY DECISION....WHEN IN DOUBT: *WAIT* OR *DON'T* !!!!!

And, IF you make the "ultimate" decision about Squidget, that decision will be FINAL ... NO REVERSE!!

Finally, I truly feel you will KNOW WHEN or IF to make that decison and you and Squidget will have PEACE...

Your pain hurts us all, Denise...we will ALWAYS be here for you...no matter what...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I just got off the phone with Denise. I'd like to try a hydroactive dressing over those elbows. In retrospect, it sounds more like a skin infection than Paratyphoid per se. In fact, Squidget doesn't sound as though he's ever had painful joints to hear Denise tell it. He still uses his wings like arms to move with and flaps. Birds with the arthritic form of Paratyphoid tend to avoid moving their joints because they apparently hurt a lot.

He also wears some raw spots on his wings for using them like hands. It'd be nice if we could come up with some form of pads or glove-like things for him to help ease that irritation.

I'm probably going to send some Keflex to try because there seems to be some kind of skin irritation that's causing an inflammatory response on the edges of those lesions on the elbows and the two bumps on his head. I don't know that that would be the best drug to take a pot shot with on a skin infection (depends on what it is of course) so I think we oughta' study on that one. I'll check the Dermatology section of the big book.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Terry,
I have takin him to Dr Bader in Holland, who is on the list of avian vets. But he did not have the wing things going on then. He told me Squidget had a degenerative deformity in his legs, nothing I could do to help it!
The only reason I went to differant Vets is because I not trust, but I not knew he was an Avian vet the first time! 

I will be calling him again tomorro, I mean Monday, and see what he has to say about the wing tumors.

And no, I will not jump to conclusions yet! Even tho this really frightened me!

I cried all night thinking about what and how I was gona do this!
Thank you all for being here for us, me and Sqidgey! 
Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, Squidget's feathers are in bad shape due to the abrasion of how he lives--not because they grew that way. I asked. I'm not surprised--my little epileptic baby, YoYo, really messes his feathers up the way he spins like a top every little bit. Denise said that little Squidget moves around quite a bit like that.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks, Pidgey... 

I have resumed BREATHING!!!

BEST OF LUCK, DENISE...we'll be here and I know you will keep us updated!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Denise, you and Squidget are angels, and Pidgey....half angel, half devil, I think that's what he told me once  . I'm glad that some other things will be looked into and that you'll be speaking w/Dr. Bader. Also, if there is something more suitable than the Keflex that Pidgey is offering to ship, I hope that you'll post it and see if any of the members have it in their 'war chest' if you don't Pidgey.

You're in our hearts and minds Denise and Squidget, 

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I came across a picture and text in the Dermatology section that had a coincidental application here: a budgie had been treated at home with a greasy medication that had kinda' stuck its feathers into masses that didn't have the insulating value that they should have. They washed the grease out and put the bird in an incubator besides proper treatment for the condition that had caused the owner to use the greasy medication in the first place.

The point here is that Squidget's feathers are messed up enough to explain the shivering. What you're probably going to need to do is start covering him up with his own blankey for periods of time to let his metabolism catch up.

As some of the other things that I'm finding as possibilities, one of the things is called "Chronic Ulcerative Dermatitis" or CUD. That doesn't identify the etiology (the underlying cause or germ)--just the name of the condition. Apparently, it's not uncommon for this condition to occur in the metapatagium or prepatagium (pretty close to where these are on Squidget).

The treatment is usually to treat with Metronidazole if giardiasis is present (not likely but it sure wouldn't hurt), administration of parenteral vitamin E (a shot, anything but oral), removing the feathers from the periphery of the lesion so that a figure-of-eight bandage can be applied to prevent mutilation (more important in a companion bird with their strong, sharp beaks) and secondary infections should be treated with an appropriate topical medication.

Also, surgical debridement and primary closure may be necessary if the lesions don't heal within five or six weeks. Surgical debridement would essentially refer to scap picking and we've already discussed on the phone how Squidget doesn't like that. In such a case, the enzymatic debriders would probably be the best way to go. Feralpigeon is the best one to talk to about that but it's probably your vet that would have to give you a prescription for the ointment. 

They may heal with considerable scar tissue and in such a case, the membrane might be weak enough for relapses so it's something that you may need to watch.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There is more description about another case (and black & white pictures) where a canary developed CUD of the skin mostly around the back of the lower neck and upper back. The bird responded to bandaging, a diet change, frequent exposure to sunlight and wound cleaning with a dilute Chlorhexidine solution.

Anyhow, CUD has been associated with tumors, abscesses, unhealed wounds, hernias, mycobacteriosis, diabetes, nephritis, hepatitis and giardiasis. I don't think that if it was of neoplastic origin (cancerous) that you'd see symmetrical lesions on both elbows. At least, it's not very likely.

It really might be a diet problem (although there can easily be a secondary infection like a Staph or something else) because that's exactly what the book says resolves most cases with the addition of the sunlight. It also mentions that complete resolution may not occur for several months after these changes are made.

Denise, send me your email address and I'll send you some pages right out of the book to take to whichever vet you choose.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If Squidget moves around a fair amount, it might be good to just do a heating pad on low. Long as he can get off, this will keep him warm when he wants it, they seem to figure it all out. With the scant feathering, I would think that he might get a bit chilled.

If the vet goes w/initial surgical debridement and moves to enzymatic, the enzymatic will cause new viable tissue to grow in the area. The tissue growth I've seen w/the Panofil is just beautiful. I'm still unclear that it would work in an area that is closed over, but perhaps it would. I simply haven't used it under those circumstances. 

You do need a prescription for the stuff, I tried to find other avenues but simply could not. The good news is that you need a minuscule amount for it to work. So, a tube would last a very long time and could be used for sores in general.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Go ahead and tell her a little more about Panofil, what the tube's like and how it works. Of course, it's something that should probably be done under a doctor's supervision because this is looking more like it's going to be a long-term wound management type thing anyway.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I found an old email from you, Denise, and already sent you two pages and another with a picture of a wing with a similar lesion that's considered to be CUD. Please review all this and come back with any questions.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank You Pidgey,

I read thru the pages and that does sound like a possibility. I will copy them and take them with me to the vet.

I will also ask about the Panofil.

I will be trying to get a better pic today also.

Thank you everyone

Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I added 3 pics
http://community.webshots.com/album/550022978MbozLv
The last 3 are the new ones.

Denise


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Denise, the label says:

Panafil Debriding, Deodorizing and Healing Ointment
NDC 0064-3410-30
Papain-Urea-Chlorophyllin Copper Complex Sodium
Rx Only
Net Wt. 30g

Manufactured by Healthpoint
Healthpoint, Ltd.
San Antonio, Texas 78215
1-800-441-8227
www.healthpoint.com

Here's a website link w/some information and a picture of the tube:

http://www.healthpoint.com/divisions/tm/prodPanafil.cfm

And here's a site that discusses the compound as a debrider and lists other names that it is sold under:

http://health.yahoo.com/drug/d04191a1#d04191a1-whatis

I've used it (for myself) on a puncture wound and about the only thing I noticed was a slight stinging, which is mentioned I believe at Healthpoint's site. I used it on someone else for ulcerated tissue over a fairly large area
which did an amazing job of closing the area up and removing the non-viable tissue. The area was pretty large and
nasty, but the new tissue that grew in was beautiful new healthy viable tissue. 

I used it, in fact on Ballsy (hawk attack) over an area on her back between the wings and over the spine which was easily larger than a silver dollar, again it debrided and closed up beautifully. And again on another hawk attacked pigeon where the results were equally dramatic.

Hope this helps.

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you fp,

I will copy and bring to vet! 

Squidget had a bath today and a long time in the sun. It was 65 degrees here and very warm in the sun! Can he get sunburned? I was being carefull between sun and shade, but he does like the sun!

Denise


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

dnrslucky1 said:


> Thank you fp,
> 
> I will copy and bring to vet!
> 
> ...


Normally a pigeon can't get sunburned I don't think, but because Squidget doesn't have all of his feathers and there is some skin showing, I would think that it's possible?? By the way, sorry to hear of the continuing problems. I've been following the thread, just haven't posted. Best of luck with the vet.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Denise,

I tend to agree w/Renee about being careful about the non-feathered areas.
Although, it's probably a very healing thing for Squidget as well. Maybe consider applying some sunscreen on the exposed skin areas ( I would get as much blocking as I could, maybe a 30 rating), and then start conservative with the time frame. If he's out for an hour and appears to be doing well w/no sunburn, you could increase it for a half hour and see how he does w/the increase.

If all goes well, then get sunglasses, a cooler filled w/beer, and let him have at it  

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd like to mention something that I've wondered about for a long time. According to the book on this condition (CUD), it's sometimes associated with Giardiasis, or the contamination of a wound with Giardia which is a flagellating protozoa similar to Trichomonads. Apparently, if a wild bird takes a bath in an infested pool of water, giardia can set up shop in the wounds, probably in the pus.

It's unlikely that Squidget would have this particular problem, though, as he's seen only chlorinated city water. But, it's just interesting to note that a bird could have the inflammatory response (the yellow cheesy stuff) in a surface wound due to a Trichomoniasis-like parasitic infestation.

I'd still consider hitting him with the Metronidazole, though, rather than beer from the cooler.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I'd like to mention something that I've wondered about for a long time. According to the book on this condition (CUD), it's sometimes associated with Giardiasis, or the contamination of a wound with Giardia which is a flagellating protozoa similar to Trichomonads. Apparently, if a wild bird takes a bath in an infested pool of water, giardia can set up shop in the wounds, probably in the pus.
> 
> It's unlikely that Squidget would have this particular problem, though, as he's seen only chlorinated city water. But, it's just interesting to note that a bird could have the inflammatory response (the yellow cheesy stuff) in a surface wound due to a Trichomoniasis-like parasitic infestation.
> 
> ...


Geez, Pidgey, AFTER the Met, couldn't he have just ONE beer? Squidget has been through soooo much! He needs a BREAK!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

MIZZZ Squawks!

Haven't you been reading the thread? He's been shivering!

It'd have to be warm beer.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, if your talking about Giardia, wouldn't Ronidazole be the preferable 'refreshment'?

fp

If it's to be warm beer, then I'd go with Guinness Stout


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's been my impression that it (giardia) responds to all the same medications as Trich does. The book actually said in the text to use Metronidazole if giardia was diagnosed but they're not talking about giardia in the intestinal tract--they're specifically talking about in the wounds.

The Big Book didn't mention anything about beer, though. And, in this case, I'd apply the beer to Denise instead of Squidget.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, all right then, who gets the sunglasses?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, that's easy enough--Squidget!

Pidget


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Denise, the rehabber that trained us always cautioned us not to expose any unfeathered bird to direct sun because the skin can be burned.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Probably ought to do it in small packets of time, then. There ought to be some research done as to what the tolerance is.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Denise, the rehabber that trained us always cautioned us not to expose any unfeathered bird to direct sun because the skin can be burned.


Maggie, you don't think that a high rated sun screen cream would take care of that? Would seem as though this is something Squidget enjoys, and I'm thinking there must be a way for him to continue to do so safely.

I know as a young person, at the beginning of summer, I would start out with very small amounts of exposure, say 20-30 min. and build up. These days I just put the sun screen on and it can be had w/some pretty high sun screening ratings. 

Just figured w/small exposures and using sun screen he'd be ok. Course I'm not an expert on this.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> It's been my impression that it (giardia) responds to all the same medications as Trich does. ......
> 
> Pidgey


If it's in the intestinal tract, while Trich medications may be used, I've read that Ronidazole is the preferred medication in the family. I think the duration of treatment is extended as well. It's of course moot here, as you say, it's not for the intestinal tract.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Maggie, you don't think that a high rated sun screen cream would take care of that? Would seem as though this is something Squidget enjoys, and I'm thinking there must be a way for him to continue to do so safely.
> 
> I know as a young person, at the beginning of summer, I would start out with very small amounts of exposure, say 20-30 min. and build up. These days I just put the sun screen on and it can be had w/some pretty high sun screening ratings.
> 
> ...


fp - course, I can't say positively that a bird can get sunburned but it seems reasonable that they could. My friend always cautioned me about this. Silver, who was our one legged pigeon that died last year, looked a lot like Squidget although without so much bare skin. Because he flopped around so much, his feathers would continually break off, wings and tail, resulting in some maybe quarter sized spots at the end of one wing. We kept him outside for about 30-45 minutes every day but would give him about 10 minutes sun, 10 minutes shade, etc. He never seemed harmed by this.

As to the sunscreen, I honestly don't know. I know that we can wash it off ourselves after we come in from the sun but I'm just not sure that Squidget should be bathed every day and I don't know what the cumulative effect would be with a build-up of the suncreen.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd like to list at this point what all the action items are for this case:

1) Try to get the vet to administer vitamin E shot(s)

2) Sunlight therapy

3) Bandaging

4) Suitable topical antiseptic; preferably chlorhexidine based (Novalsan)

5) Obtain an enzymatic debrider in case the other steps don't work.

6) Consider antibiotic therapy for cutaneous infections. It may be necessary to culture some of the pruritic discharge from some of the surrounding blisters.

I distilled all this because sometimes the major bullet points get lost in too much discussion and banter (guilty as charged). I don't know when Denise will get a stab at the vet and what his opinion will be--might come up with something completely different.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I think the Panofil lists as an enzymatic debrider, but a topical debrider at any rate.

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank You Pidgey, I got the Email on the meds!

Squidget has an appointment with Dr Bader on Fri morn. I will let everyone know what he has to say as soon as I return home! I will be bringing copys of all the info I have recieved here. I will try my damnedest to get him to culture thos tumors! My decision is, that I want all tests possible to be done, and if by any chance he cannot find anything, that could give us any hope at all, then i hate to do it, but I will have to, you know what. I am praying he will have some idea to help! I am sorry I just don't know what else to do at this time. Believe me I will be fighting for Squidget! I will make that vet do all and every test! But we all know he can not survive as he is!

I had him outside today after 5pm for an hour, he loves it! Cry Cry!!! I am so sorry, I would give anything to make him better!

My German Shepherd dog has degenerative disc disease, nothing to do with Squidget! 

His Dr confirmed that today, and said I need to keep him quiet and do what we can to control the pain!

Denise


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

OK, I take all that back! If Dr Bader cannot help, I gona hope Pidgey can! I realize Squidget is an unusal case and maybe i should not have kept him alive in the first place! But I did and he still wants to live. I take that back, he would not be here except for his strong will to live and my small help! I still believe he is gona make it!

Denise


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Denise,

I've been following your thread, but I haven't posted much on your situation with Squidget because I really haven't had anything useful to contribute that could help and I still don't.

But, I just wanted to say that my heart goes out to you. I'm sure you're going around in circles and constantly worrying about what is best to do, and driving yourself crazy. I don't know what to say, except try to take it one day at a time. You have your doctor's appt. on Friday....see what he says and take it from there.

I also wanted to say that if you ever feel that you have come to any decision regarding the situation that feels right in your heart....to do what you feel is best without guilt and without worrying about what others might think. You don't need adding that burden to yourself on top of what you have had and still have to contend with.

I wish you the best of luck and best wishes for a positive outcome from the bottom of my heart.

Linda


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I know this--even a blind pigeon likes going for a walk. To experience something new and surprising (and hopefully safe) is something that we all enjoy. To listen to the songbirds, to watch them go about their lives--Squidget will be no less than the rest of us. That would be the best thing that you can do--give him a daily dose of that world "out there" even if he has to be carried like a baby.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, Denise, the vet may (or may not--you never know) consider that it's his first priority to convince you that Squidget doesn't have enough quality of life, is suffering, etc and therefore should be euthanized. They can sometimes be fairly persuasive. Don't let that get to you. Nobody knows Squidget and whether he wants to continue living as much as you do. 

I don't know what to tell you if the doctor doesn't think that it's CUD. Since CUD is a condition with many actual causes ranging from parasites to a nutritional deficiency to an infection to cancer, then I don't see how a diagnosis of CUD can be argued against. The cause can be argued six ways from Sunday but the tests are to nail it down. 

Only a part of the treatment strategy depends on those findings. If it were actual cancer, for instance, it could be a bad long-term prognosis but I'd still take him for walks in the sunlight for as long as he didn't feel too bad before I took him for the longest walk of all. For myself, I don't believe that's what it is, though.

If it's one of the lesser things, it might take it months to finally resolve with no small amount of work on your part. And that's fine. That's something that we can live with. One of the places that CUD can occur is on the keel and I had a spot like that on Winston. He was the one who had (for whatever reason) lost several of the primary flight feathers on that one side and yet still flew. Oh, yeah, it was pretty poor flying and he had to budget an incredible amount of energy into the endeavor (he certainly wasn't going to make it in the long term if left to fend for himself) but he did it. Anyway, he must have made a belly flop somewhere and caused that lesion. It did NOT want to heal with just NeoSporin. And it stank as well. It was only when I was giving him a bath with some extra clorox (small capful) in the water and dishsoap to get the actual feathers truly wet that I found the wound. It seemed to take forever to get it to finally resolve. That was the same kind of stuff that you're seeing and that particular wound type is described in the CUD reference.

So, I have faith. We may need to find you some of the Chlorhexidine topical sprays, though. I went looking in your town and found that Petco carries it in this form:

http://www.petco.com/Shop/SearchResults.aspx?Nav=1&N=0&Ntt=topical spray

3424 West Shore Drive
Holland, MI 49424-9699
616-994-0911

At least, Petco has it on the website--you'll need to check and see if the store does (let your fingers do the walking). You might also try your vet--they sometimes sell stuff like that. Both of those sprays in the link above contain Chlorhexidine. Apparently, it's used as a dermatological cleansing and treatment agent quite a bit. I always thought of it as a surgical scrub and general cleaning solution. You learn something new every day.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Pidgey,

Thank you again, I will be prepared when I see the Vet! I will not be a pushover!

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Denise,

Be sure and tell me when you get the Keflex in the mail. I need to get the rest of it sent off and I haven't had time yet to apportion it out.

On another note, I did call my vet and he said that he'd write me a prescription for the enzymatic debrider that feralpigeon has (Panofil; or any other, I guess). The funniest part is that he'd didn't much see the point in the stuff. I asked, "you mean as far as you're concerned, it's best to just rip the stuff (scabs; necrotic tissue) off and close?" He pretty much answered in the affirmative.

Well, after all the looking into it, I feel there is a place for the stuff. Feralpigeon's had good results with it. It seems best for sores and abscesses that, for whatever reason, aren't healing very well on their own. I believe she also uses it to deal with an older wound that's just clogged up with a scab that the bird can't get rid of.

Anyhow, I'm going to try to acquire a tube of the stuff to have and try the next time I get a bird in with a wound like that. We'll give your vet a try and also see how the sunlight, Vitamin E (hopefully from the vet), Keflex, bandaging and whatever tests or pathology the vet does, goes. If it looks like there might be a use in a case like this, I'll send some up.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Pidgey

I received the Keflex today.

I am going to hold off using it until we see the vet in the morning. I am preparing notes and copy's tonight, wish us luck!

My daughter is back in the hospital so I may not get time to post until late evening! She had major surgery yesterday, this time they removed her entire large bowel! She is in a lot of pain but so far doing well. Squidget's appointment is early morn, but I will be heading to the hospital right afterward and I will be staying with her until 7 pm and then I have an hour drive home.

My dog is doing ok on cortizone shots and tablets, which is easing most of his pain. 

When they say things come in threes, I hope they are right and my three is over!

Thank you Denise


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

dnrslucky1 said:


> When they say things come in threes, I hope they are right and my three is over! Thank you Denise


I hope so too, Denise. I'm sorry you are having to deal with so many very difficult situations right now. Hoping all your loved ones are better soon.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Denise, hugs, kisses and prayers for you and your family. I'm beginning to think you need to borrow Feather's Wonder Woman avatar for a little while with all you're going through.

I hope this surgery will help your daughter's condition. You just hang in there and know that many, many people are pulling for you.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Denise, I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter's health and hope that all
goes well for her tomorrow. You are a caretaker extradinaire, and in our thoughts and prayers.

fp


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you Terry, Maggie, fp and Pidgey! My daughter can use all the Prayers she can get right now and I can sure use the kind words and caring thoughts!

I feel guilty for only being with her for 7 hours today but I was so tired and needed to relax awhile. After yesterday with the Emergency Room, then surgery, then recovery time, then staying with her until I felt things were Ok, that was 15 hours and of course I needed to be there first thing this morning!
Her hubby will be there in the morn and she dosen't want me to miss Squidget's appointment or I would have cancelled it for now.

Anyway, I have copyed the info that Pidgey sent me about CUD and all of his recomendations. I have made a timeline of when the tumors started, amounts and dates of Baytril. Have the copy of his x-ray, I will be collecting poops tonight.

Am I forgetting anything important? I want to do this right!

Denise


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

With all that is going on in your life, it's no wonder you were feeling overwhelmed with Squidget's problems!!! Sure hope your daughter's health improves - the uncertainty of that is really a lot to deal with. Glad your dog is feeling better with the new meds. Please remember to take care of your own health and well being so you can continue to be there for your loved ones. Hope the vet's appointment is productive and instructive!


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Denise,

Sorry to hear about all your loved ones having these medical problems - gosh I would have cracked by now. 

You are one strong lady that's all I can say and I hope upon hope that all 3 loved ones in your life make satisfactory progress and that you can look back at this part of your life as a "terrible time" but one that has passed.

Your plight has moved me deeply and I am thinking of you at these difficult times. 

How unselfish of your daughter to make sure that your take Squidget for his appointment despite her majory surgery ( and I know bowel removal is pretty major!) - she too is one in a million!

Tania xx


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Denise, 


I was on a little sabatical of sorts there for a little while, and your thread has become so long now, my eyes will get too fatigued if reading all the way through from the beginning to see what has been going on...

Can you bring me up to speed in a few paragraphs?

Is little Squidget having continued problems with those spots on his elbows or shoulders?


Best wishes you two!


Phil
Las Vegas


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