# Northwest Georgia Beginner...



## Birds4MyPup (Mar 8, 2010)

I have recently found out how homing pigeons could help me train my hunting retreiver and I am really excited to get started. Not only am I a hunter but I am a big animal lover and think these homing pigeons will be alot of fun. So, I am about to build a homing pigeon loft and get some birds to train my duck hunting retreiver. I was going to build about a 3(wide)x4(tall)x8(long) loft with a 2 x 2 screened in area connected for the birds to get air/sun/rain. These deminsions are based mostly on the shed I have in the backyard that I'll be building the loft under. I have been searching for about 2 days now and am finding it hard to find some information (the search option isn't working for me on this site). So some questions...
1. If I get a pair of homing pigeons to breed, I don't let them out, so I have a section of the loft for them and any other breeding pairs, correct?
2. If they breed like crazy and have a bunch of youngsters, (I'll need about 12-15) will the youngsters start inbreeding or does it matter?
3. When do you seperate the youngsters from the breeding area to the area for the young birds that you fly?
4. How many birds would my loft hold at those deminsions?
Any other tips and information for a beginner would be greatly apprecitated, I will be getting my dog soon and want to try and get this mostly figured out before I get him.

Thank You
Michael


----------



## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Most of the members -me inculded-do not approve of using pigeons to train dogs--pigeon shoots --only for racing or showing


----------



## Birds4MyPup (Mar 8, 2010)

I will not be shooting the pigeons and I never said anything like that. You should ask before you assume. I will be releasing the birds from bags in front of my dog and require him to remain steady at my side. It's training for steadiness. 

*No birds will be harmed during this training*


----------



## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Sorry Birds-my mistake--but most dog trainers use pigeons to --train to retrieve the bird. catch it -bring it back --Tape the wings where they can't fly


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm glad you're interested in homers and you won't be harming the birds during training  We've just gotten to where we automatically put abusing birds with dog training, simply because that's all that we've heard of from those who come through here. 

Now to your questions:
1. Yes, it's good to keep your breeders as 'prisoners', so that you don't end up having the hawks eat up all your birds before you can get any babies. Also, older birds wouldn't be releasable anyway.
2. The babies would eventually pair up and start breeding. Inbreeding isn't bad, as long as you don't over do it. Once you get the amount of birds you want, you can start replacing the eggs with fake ones. Or one chicken egg would work (I have a few pairs incubating quail and standard sized chicken eggs at the moment ). You could also take their eggs, hardboil them, and put them back under them. Either way, they'll incubate the eggs until their natural cycle is up, and they lay new eggs again. The reason it's better to let them take their course, rather than just throw the eggs out immediately, is so that they have time to recoup after laying. Eggs can really take a lot out of a hen!
3. You can wean the babies as soon as they start eating and drinking on their own, which is usually 25-30 days old. Or if you're in no hurry, you can always go by the rule of thumb that when the quills under the wings open up into feathers, you can take them away from mom and dad.
4. Typically you want at least a square foot of space per bird, and the more room, the better. The most important thing is that each bird has at least one perch to roost on.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Birds4MyPup said:


> I will not be shooting the pigeons and I never said anything like that. *You should ask before you assume. I will be releasing the birds from bags in front of my dog and require him to remain steady at my side. It's training for steadiness. *
> 
> *No birds will be harming during this training*


Thank you for that explanation

However, you should explain before we came to those conclusions.


----------



## rririe (Jan 21, 2010)

Birds4mypup, I hope you have a rehabber or bird rescue center close by. I personally feel you are putting your birds in harms way. I admire you for wanting to raise pigeons, but for the wrong reasons. I think you user name will be just that, birds 4 your pup. I don't think any pigeon released from a bag and staring into the eyes of a hunting dog will ever be happy or feel secure! Randy


----------



## Birds4MyPup (Mar 8, 2010)

skytx -- I can respect the fact that racing or showing pigeons is your passion and you don't want people disrespecting the sport or the birds. I feel the same way about duck hunting! I don't intend to put the birds in harms way because I want to get into the homing pigeons like I am duck hunting and have a flock take flight around my house. Also I like to train and I believe the birds will be interesting to train. Maybe I have mislead you guys with my screen name but I saw a video with a trainer using pigeons (without harming them) to steady his dog. My hunting retriever who has recently come up missing had a be problem with steadiness (i think the birds could have helped him). However, there shouldn't be assumptions made about how I will be using the birds when I ask about information. It's kinda like my grandad has always said "If you ask someone, hey can I borrow $20?" They say "well what do you need it for?" He would reply, "I didn't say what I wanted it for, I just asked if I could borrow it!" It's really no one's business what you are going to do with the money. Likewise, there's no need for explaination of simply question's I have about raising pigeons just because my screen name is Birds4MyPup. It's also disrespectful to assume that the pigeon's will be harmed by being released in front of my dog by me a duck hunter. I don't beleive I have disrespected anyone by making this post. I would like to be shown the same respect as a duck hunter and new racing pigeon enthusiast.

Two birds Up rririe!!!


----------



## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Birds---My wife was a very good Duck Hunter-and YES we had some very good Retrievers. we also had Dogs for hunting Squirrels-Racoons-running foxes. She married into a Hunting family.-In fact she was on the cover of 2-3 hunting Magazine's-back in the 1950's and 1960's. Next month we will be married 54 years and raced Pigeons for 31 of those years.
We were raised in the Mississippi Delta- a hunters Paradise


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

my Dad trained his bird dogs too, but he used feathers(where he got it I do not know) tied to a fishing pole to train his dog to hold the point by his side and flicked the pole to move the feathers... you do not need to scare the begesus out of live birds to train a dog... think of how stressful a life would be if you thought you were going to go to the after life as bait to some predator... thats how the pigeon would see it I would think....


----------



## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

To each their own, I have seen pointers trained in my past and I believe him. Why go to the point of building a loft and learning about the birds if he didn't care about the birds. Also, I have a lab that doesn't bother my birds and my birds have gotten use to her. She even jumps into the loft with me most days and the birds just hang out. They are less scared of her than me, (she doen't catch them I do).

Now that said, with a name like Birds4MyPup be ready to explain your position from time to time because of what other bird dog trainers do. Also, some people just will not agree with your training, "just because." Just agree to disagree.

Tony


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't believe that anyone disrespected you. Normally the way people train their dogs, that you hear of, is by letting them catch them. They are scared to death, and very possibly hurt or killed in the bargain. So when you come in and say you want them for the purpose of training your dog, I think it natural to think you are doing the same thing. This is a pigeon forum, and we don't believe in harming pigeons, so I think it was up to you to explain it when you started your post. The responses you got should have been expected. I still don't think that putting them in a bag and using them that way is fair to the birds. It certainly wouldn't be enjoyable to them. Don't think birds should be kept and bred to train a dog. You have come onto a forum where people love their birds, and are going to react to what you are doing. If you didn't want to have to deal with that, then maybe you should have bought a book on pigeon keeping instead.


----------



## Birds4MyPup (Mar 8, 2010)

It is hard for me to believe that people without any knowledge other than a brief explanation of the training presume to know what will and will not happen to the birds I will be using. If I wanted to harm the pigeons then why wouldn't I just buy a few of them and half way take care of them and throw them in a wire cage til I bring them out to shoot them over my dog. I am interested in keeping these pigeons, also my dad had some when he was a kid. He has sparked an interest in it himself and we are going around ideas of building the loft together. These are the kind of rediculous responses that you have to deal with on forums. Should I really have to go into all this detail to ask a simple questions about my interest in homing pigeons? People who have no business responding to the posts and injecting their opinion when it has nothing to do with the subject of the post are the one's who respond the most. Thank you for highjacking my post with your overly conservative and unjustifible assumptions. 
*If you don't have anything constuctive to add to the subject don't post*
P.S. - I am undating my profile to include a full background check.
This is the last I will comment on these posts.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Ok guys cut the kid some slack he did say he was a big animal lover. We have a man in our club that trains dogs and to my knoledge he has never hurt a bird. Birds can get used to a bag we put them in a box for shiping and we have them in the box longer. Thursday afternoon for a Saterday release. JMO
Dave


----------



## Roller mike (Aug 5, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> I don't believe that anyone disrespected you. Normally the way people train their dogs, that you hear of, is by letting them catch them. They are scared to death, and very possibly hurt or killed in the bargain. So when you come in and say you want them for the purpose of training your dog, I think it natural to think you are doing the same thing. This is a pigeon forum, and we don't believe in harming pigeons, so I think it was up to you to explain it when you started your post. The responses you got should have been expected. I still don't think that putting them in a bag and using them that way is fair to the birds. It certainly wouldn't be enjoyable to them. Don't think birds should be kept and bred to train a dog. You have come onto a forum where people love their birds, and are going to react to what you are doing. If you didn't want to have to deal with that, then maybe you should have bought a book on pigeon keeping instead.


 The guy has taken an interest in raising pigeons with no intention in harming them and you jump down his throat, way to help a new guy out, if we run everyone off all the time there will be no one else around to enjoy the hobby.JMO


----------



## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Not to jump in the blender here, but...

I know a number of people who keep pigeons for dog training, and never lose a bird, except to hawks- which every person here who flies their birds risks... If your birds are pets, and never flown, that's a different deal. They will never know the "fear" of a predator chasing them.

Many trainers consider pigeons "off-game." The don't want their dogs retrieving pigeons... they will buy quail, or pheasants to use for retrieving drills, as that is the game the dog will see in the field.

I'm sure there's more than a few folks who got a few training birds, and wound up falling in love with a new hobby.

FWIW,

Don


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Roller mike said:


> The guy has taken an interest in raising pigeons with no intention in harming them and you jump down his throat, way to help a new guy out, if we run everyone off all the time there will be no one else around to enjoy the hobby.JMO


I didn't jump down his throat. I was explaining why he got the initial response from different people. It was up to him to explain in the first place. If he can't see that, or you can't, well then your being very one sided. And giving an opinion is not jumping down his throat, so chill.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Perhaps I should just move on to another thread....but I was wondering how some of these owners of these bird dog retrivers would feel, if I wanted information about these dogs in order to train some of my pet lions. I tie the dog into a sack with just his head sticking out, and then my lion's come up to him and very gently bring him back to me. Now, he won't hurt the dogs, it has happened I admit, but that's not what I want. When me and my hunting buddies go out to kill stuff, we only want the lions to bring the stuff we kill back to us. I use to pay the neighbor to borrow his kids, but I ran into some trouble with children's services. Something about not being allowed to tie them up in sacks and stuff. 

So, if a bird dog owner, does not have a problem letting me use his kids to train my pet lions, then perhaps I won't have a problem with him using some of my babies to train his dogs. 

Problem is, I am a bird lover. I have issues right at the start, because "dog trainers" kill birds for fun. Second, they want to use pigeons to facilate their killing hobby. I just can't see myself providing pointers to someone who intends to stick them in a sack to train a dog. In order to help them kill birds for fun. 

Every once in awhile, a guy will call me asking to buy my "culls", so he can use them for dog training. There are other more sick and twisted things that people can legally do, but don't ask me for your help. These same "sportsmen" are some of the same folks that come into Penna. to attend live pigeon shoots. So from my perspective, I don't want to hear how humane your dog training methods are, and just because you want to put a loft in your back yard, does not mean I have any duty or obligation to assist you. 

(PS. Please "thank" some of your hunting buddies for the buck shot that some of my birds have come home with)  ( PS. PS. might as well thank your buddies who also have their dogs do it on my lawn and fail to clean it up also) my cats had me throw that last one in there.....


----------



## rririe (Jan 21, 2010)

Thank you Warren and Karen, As I said before, live pigeons and dog training don't mix, the idea of the birds being released from a bag or sack turned my stomach. I can only feel myself peeking out of a bag only to see a hunting dog ready to pounce. Then if the bird survives just put it back in the loft to be used another session. I'm sorry doesnt' work for me. Randy


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Doesn't work for me either...c.hert


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I love the lion analogy. Thats just great. LoL


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Perhaps I should just move on to another thread....but I was wondering how some of these owners of these bird dog retrivers would feel, if I wanted information about these dogs in order to train some of my pet lions. I tie the dog into a sack with just his head sticking out, and then my lion's come up to him and very gently bring him back to me. Now, he won't hurt the dogs, it has happened I admit, but that's not what I want. When me and my hunting buddies go out to kill stuff, we only want the lions to bring the stuff we kill back to us. I use to pay the neighbor to borrow his kids, but I ran into some trouble with children's services. Something about not being allowed to tie them up in sacks and stuff.
> 
> So, if a bird dog owner, does not have a problem letting me use his kids to train my pet lions, then perhaps I won't have a problem with him using some of my babies to train his dogs.
> 
> ...



Okay Warren...........now this was a great post. Even if I tried, and tried, and tried, I could not have worded it more eloquently myself. PRICELESS!


----------



## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm not trying to defend people who treat their birds like garbage. I'm not saying all dog trainers are saints.

There are people who don't believe I should be allowed to keep my dogs, or my horses. There are people who don't believe you should be able to keep your pigeons, either. Many people consider pigeons pests, or vermin. Ever hear the phrase "rats with wings?" I have heard it a lot from folks who find out I keep pigeons.

I was reading a post on this bbs yesterday, about pigeon racers killing all of their culls, to keep the competition from having access to their genetics- or some such nonsense.... I can't find the link now, or I would reference it.

Point is- not everybody wants us to be able to enjoy our hobbies, especially when it comes to animals. A little (in)tolerance goes a long way, and zealotry drives more people away than it invites. You might want to make a little effort to educate those that come here, and learn a little bit about them in the process, before you get on the high horse.

It seems there's always someone out there who wants to tell you what you can and can't do, because that's the way they think it should be done...

cbx


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cbx1013 said:


> Many trainers consider pigeons "off-game." The don't want their dogs retrieving pigeons... they will buy quail, or pheasants to use for retrieving drills, as that is the game the dog will see in the field.
> 
> I have worked with several trainers who use pigeons. Their birds are a valued part of their occupation, and they receive excellent care. They would no more consider shooting, or killing a prized bird than any of us would, and they grieve the losses to predators when they occur- as an important tool of their livlihood has been lost. These pigeons work for a living.
> 
> ...



We are not talking about the person shooting the bird. Shoving them in a bag and releasing in front of a dog (predator) is using the bird in a way that would terrorize it. And doing this over and over again. Great life for the bird. Letting dogs retrieve living birds even worse. If you can't see the fault in this, then you really aren't trying to understand what we are saying at all, and words are wasted on you. You are looking at this one-sided, and certainly not viewing the poor bird as a living creature who is being subjected to the horror the experience would instill in him.


----------



## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

*Well said Warren.......*


----------



## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> If you can't see the fault in this, then you really aren't trying to understand what we are saying at all, and words are wasted on you. You are looking at this one-sided, and certainly not viewing the poor bird as a living creature who is being subjected to the horror the experience would instill in him.


I never said I advocated using live birds for retrieving drills. Lots of people do things I don't personally agree with.

Actually, I am not the one looking at it one-sided, but I'm allowing that other folks have useful occupations for their hobby. You might not like it, but it's an established, legal use of a resource. Might not be my cup of tea either, but when people start telling other people how to do things, everybody loses.

So, you're telling me nobody would ever think it was cruel to keep these wild creatures in cramped breeding lofts, where they will never know freedom again, with no hope of release? Regardless of care and conditions, it can be painted as bad as you like by someone with an agenda.

How about racing? What are the mortality rates involved in your "sport?" How about hawk predation? Seems pretty terrifying to release a "pet" for competition, only to risk it being terrorized and killed by a Cooper's hawk. What an archaic, selfish use of one of God's creatures for personal gain and ego... See where this is going?

Given the wide range in loft construction and conditions I've seen on this website, perhaps their ought to be some investigation and standards put in place to make sure the birds are properly housed and cared for... I pay local and county registration fees for my 2 dogs, and immunizations for common diseases are mandated... I'm also limited in how many dogs I can keep on my private property... Think about the implications for the hobby of pigeon keeping.

I keep pigeons for pleasure. I kept Budgies, or Cockatiels for a large part of my life. I also have dogs, and am a hunter. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I hope you can see how things might look to urban outsiders whose limited experience of pigeons is largely negative. The are the large, uneducated voting blocks that will decide our future.

Glass houses, my friend... I'm out on this subject.

cbx


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I love the lion analogy. Thats just great. LoL


.....love it too!... after warren's post really there is not much more left to say on it IMO...


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cbx1013 said:


> *So, you're telling me nobody would ever think it was cruel to keep these wild creatures in cramped breeding lofts, where they will never know freedom again, with no hope of release? Regardless of care and conditions, it can be painted as bad as you like by someone with an agenda.*
> 
> 
> Putting words in my mouth won't help you. I never said that. Horrifying one animal to train another is just wrong. ANY kind of abuse on ANY animal is wrong. And pointing out other wrongs will not make it right. Sometimes I wonder how they ever came up with the meaning of the word HUMANE from the word HUMAN. That should be a little clue as to how we should treat animals. Sad that so many don't adhere to it. And we're supposed to be the ones with heart and compassion.
> ...


----------



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

This thread should have been flagged and closed down from the minute is was posted.


----------



## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Perhaps I should just move on to another thread....but I was wondering how some of these owners of these bird dog retrivers would feel, if I wanted information about these dogs in order to train some of my pet lions. I tie the dog into a sack with just his head sticking out, and then my lion's come up to him and very gently bring him back to me. Now, he won't hurt the dogs, it has happened I admit, but that's not what I want. When me and my hunting buddies go out to kill stuff, we only want the lions to bring the stuff we kill back to us. I use to pay the neighbor to borrow his kids, but I ran into some trouble with children's services. Something about not being allowed to tie them up in sacks and stuff.
> 
> So, if a bird dog owner, does not have a problem letting me use his kids to train my pet lions, then perhaps I won't have a problem with him using some of my babies to train his dogs.
> 
> ...


I like the lion story also. Now there is a difference between teaching a dog to point and teaching to retrieve. To hold steady is to teach to point. Now that being said and since everyone in giving their opinions this is mine. I gave up hunting a long long time ago. I believe in letting life live, even the pair of hawks that nested in my neighborhood last year and kill a couple of my birds. I also believe that each person has a right to live as they see fit as long as their rights do not infringed on mine. But on the same note I have no more right to force my beliefs on someone else anymore than they have a right to force their beliefs on me. 

Sometimes on this forum I find myself taking sides I do not believe in just because everyone should be giving respect. That is the key, respect. I do not nor will not give my birds to anyone who trains dogs to hunt because the end result is wild birds get shot, (as well as someone's pigeons), and I do not believe in it. I also do not sell or give breeding pairs of homers away because they must be kept as prisoners. I believe homers should fly. On the same note just because it is not what I care for or belief in I do not fault another man for his beliefs. Remember not everyone will agree with how you live and just how defensive will you be if they tell you your life style is wrong. I know I am. Usually when I read something here I disagree with I move on because that is the respectful thing to do. 

Moving on,
God Bless,
Tony


----------



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

*Big T in the house!*



Big T said:


> I like the lion story also. Now there is a difference between teaching a dog to point and teaching to retrieve. To hold steady is to teach to point. Now that being said and since everyone in giving their opinions this is mine. I gave up hunting a long long time ago. I believe in letting life live, even the pair of hawks that nested in my neighborhood last year and kill a couple of my birds. I also believe that each person has a right to live as they see fit as long as their rights do not infringed on mine. But on the same note I have no more right to force my beliefs on someone else anymore than they have a right to force their beliefs on me.
> 
> Sometimes on this forum I find myself taking sides I do not believe in just because everyone should be giving respect. That is the key, respect. I do not nor will not give my birds to anyone who trains dogs to hunt because the end result is wild birds get shot, (as well as someone's pigeons), and I do not believe in it. I also do not sell or give breeding pairs of homers away because they must be kept as prisoners. I believe homers should fly. On the same note just because it is not what I care for or belief in I do not fault another man for his beliefs. Remember not everyone will agree with how you live and just how defensive will you be if they tell you your life style is wrong. I know I am. Usually when I read something here I disagree with I move on because that is the respectful thing to do.
> 
> ...


I like what you stated here my man! If everyone had left the thread alone he would have figured it out.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

This forum is definitely biased against dog trainers. Their posts are usually shut down before their questions are answered. I think there should be a note that says we don't welcome dog trainers in the forum. I feel embarrassed about our being biased. I think we should just answer the poster's question instead of posting our personal preferences. After answering questions, then perhaps we can state our preferences if preferred. It is one thing to give facts, and another to give personal views (politics).


----------



## Birds4MyPup (Mar 8, 2010)

I am going to have to leave this forum because my name "Bird4MyPup" has been completely smudged. I have been accused, misused, abused, construed, ....lol.... 

CBX, Tony, goldenboy and others (pm's) thank you for your open mindedness and thanks to all of you out there who understand a bit of what I am talking about. Mainly I thank you all for your respect. It doesn't matter what you tell someone to do on the internet, you are on the internet. They don't have to do it and I am so glad that you guys realized that you couldn't stop me from getting pigeons. It's my legal right as a United States citizen. Even if some of you guys or all of you didn't agree with my post or how I was planning to use the birds, you still showed me some respect. That's the way it should be, it works much better to respect someone, answer their questions and then maybe tell them how you feel about what they are doing or how you would like to make sure that the birds won't be harmed. Most of the replies were the opposite of that, honestly, I would be embarassed if I was associated with people who are that closed minded and so ignorant as to think that injecting their personal feelings over the internet and refusing to answer questions was going to do anything to stop me from getting homing pigeons. I am getting some homing pigeons (period). Which I will pay as much respect to as I do my dogs. These people are making you guys look bad!

And...

-a dog being steady requires him to sit and a dog pointing is standing and "pointing"...there's one difference for you
-lion analogy was rediculous and at most a third grade writing level which puts all those who loved how eloquently it was written at a kindergarten level
-i could continue with the list but the ignorance would be more than I could bare and unlike most of you guys who replied to my post I have better things to do!

And now imagine me turning invisible before your eyes and reappearing as a different person. (You know cause all I have to do is get a different email and screen name) 

MUUUUAAHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm out!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm SO sorry your feelings were hurt-no one has the right to insult you, but our members do have the right to inquire. Your post above is also insulting to some of our members.

YOU came to our forum asking about getting pigeons, and our members truly DO care about the welfare of any birds, no matter who it is they always inquire, and were concerned and open and honest about how the birds would be used. 

You are breaking the rules, you should read the rules first and foremost of any forum before joining them.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

RodSD said:


> This forum is definitely biased against dog trainers. Their posts are usually shut down before their questions are answered. I think there should be a note that says we don't welcome dog trainers in the forum. I feel embarrassed about our being biased. I think we should just answer the poster's question instead of posting our personal preferences. After answering questions, then perhaps we can state our preferences if preferred. It is one thing to give facts, and another to give personal views (politics).




*Here are the rules of the forum:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f9/forum-rules-of-conduct-7006.html*


----------



## mike mack (Dec 19, 2008)

I have been a learning lurker at this site for some time. Could you please let me know which rule was broke before bird4pup was berated. The lion thing was WAY over the top in poor taste, unnecessary and flat out rude. Thank You. Mike.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

mike mack said:


> I have been a learning lurker at this site for some time. Could you please let me know which rule was broke before bird4pup was berated. The lion thing was WAY over the top in poor taste, unnecessary and flat out rude. Thank You. Mike.


Here they are, Mike.


Forum Rules of Conduct

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Participation in the Pigeon-Talk forums implies agreement with the following:

1. Pigeon Talk forums offer support, empowerment, education and entertainment to pigeon enthusiasts in every aspect of this fancy. Since each user is responsible for their own posts, please use discretion when weighing the value of information found in these forums.

2. This is a pigeon advocate website. Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any cruel treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. While we encourage an exchange of opinions in these forums, please note that there are specific 'Off Limit' topics that are PROHIBITED and any such posts will be be immediately removed without discussion. Off Limit topics include: 

Lethal means of control - Our discussions encourage 'humane habitat modifications'. We reject all discussions about 'lethal' means of control.

Lethal culling. We advocate only 'responsible culling' of unwanted pigeons or doves. 'Responsible culling' is defined as: Taking the responsibility for finding proper homes for your unwanted pigeons. Please do not try to give us your 'justifications' for 'lethal culling', we have heard it all. If you hold an opinion about your 'right' to 'lethal culling' of unwanted pigeons and/or any animal, please keep it to yourself.Please just go away.

Surgical Procedures. Invasive procedures on any animal should ONLY be performed by a licensed/qualified veterinary doctor. If you have an emergency situation please contact a professional for advice and treatment. There are many resources on Pigeon-Life that can help you locate professional care. Just because you may find a procedure posted on the WEB that doesn't mean it is valid or humane. 

Cruelty or torture of any animals. 
3. We require civil and ethical conduct on all forums. Personal attacks on other members, or Pigeon-Life.net itself, will not be tolerated. If asked, you will yield to the requests of the forum moderators and administrators.

Thank you for your cooperation,
Carl Gulledge (bigbird)


----------

