# Spread vrs. Saddle



## Squab81 (Dec 24, 2008)

I am wondering about the inheritance of spread vrs saddle. I currently have a lace saddle hen, and would love to get a spread lace. Or would it be easier to start with a lace saddle cock? Im assuming either way its at least an F2 generation process.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Wow! That bird is gorgeous...it looks like a homer and how did you get that color? did you breed this bird?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Beautiful bird*



Squab81 said:


> I am wondering about the inheritance of spread vrs saddle. I currently have a lace saddle hen, and would love to get a spread lace. Or would it be easier to start with a lace saddle cock? Im assuming either way its at least an F2 generation process.


You need to know how this one was made. There are a number of ways to make lace, some work with spread and some work with t pattern. There are stencils, reduced, opal and probably some ways that I'm forgetting that can result in lace patterns. Best of course if you can find another with the saddlle mark as it makes a mess if you don't and will take a while to reset. The saddle however has nothing to do with the actual color. 

If all else fails, breed this one to a blue saddle and breed a son back to her. I can't tell from the picture what is in this bird but looks opal to me. It's hard to say though, maybe someone else might know for sure.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Saddle Homer*



g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Wow! That bird is gorgeous...it looks like a homer and how did you get that color? did you breed this bird?


 Hi Henry It is a homer if you would like to see more go to this web site www.saddlehomersusa.org/ I belong to that club and I am the director for the 6th district. .GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Opal*

*Hi BILL, It is an OPAL, I currently have 3cocks in my loft just like the one pictured here I agree mate it to a saddle is the way to go. www.saddlehomersusa.org/* GEORGE


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

george simon said:


> Hi Henry It is a homer if you would like to see more go to this web site www.saddlehomersusa.org/ I belong to that club and I am the director for the 6th district. .GEORGE


Hey George - I know that today you've decided not to give any birds away anymore...How much would you sell a pair of your saddles just like the one pictures above? I fell in love with the look of that bird the moment I layed my eyes on it!

Henry


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## Squab81 (Dec 24, 2008)

Thanks for the comments, she is a homer, and I didnt raise her... So i dont know who her parents are. I assumed she was an opal, and she is my only saddle. So thats why i asked about pairing her to a spread. And i do realize the color is inherited differently than bar, spread, saddle, etc. I forgot though that the lace is usually a multi genetic result. So thanks for reminding me of that. 

But when it comes down to strictly saddle vrs spread, do we know which gene will win? I think i remember spread being a simple dominant mutation and not sex linked. But i have no clue what saddle is.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi SQUARB 81, There are many saddle breeders in your area NY in Rhinebeck, ON THE HUDSON take a look at owr web site www.saddlehomersusa.org/ you just might be able to get mate for that bird* GEORGE


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

That is one beautiful saddle homer!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Hey George - I know that today you've decided not to give any birds away anymore...How much would you sell a pair of your saddles just like the one pictures above? I fell in love with the look of that bird the moment I layed my eyes on it!
> 
> Henry


HI HENRY, None of my saddles are for sale now,I GAVE 12 to a guy in DECEMBER and he sold some of them to other people,and in January had only three left, and he had the b-ll,s to ask for a blue bar cock for the odd hen that he still had.go to the web site and check out the links you will find some links of members that will sell. ............GEORGE


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey George,

That definitely was not me, right? You gave me 5 pigeons in January. Two escaped and didn't come back, two killed by a hawk and I have one left which is breeding right now.

It is sad indeed if you gave 12 birds and they sold most for profit. That is not right. Someone profited at your expense! That is not cool!

rod


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I'm not sure what you mean*



Squab81 said:


> Thanks for the comments, she is a homer, and I didnt raise her... So i dont know who her parents are. I assumed she was an opal, and she is my only saddle. So thats why i asked about pairing her to a spread. And i do realize the color is inherited differently than bar, spread, saddle, etc. I forgot though that the lace is usually a multi genetic result. So thanks for reminding me of that.
> 
> But when it comes down to strictly saddle vrs spread, do we know which gene will win? I think i remember spread being a simple dominant mutation and not sex linked. But i have no clue what saddle is.


There is no saddle vs spread. A saddle could be spread as in black or lavender. If you are talking about a self colored bird with no white with a saddle, you'll make a mess for awhile. There are several factors involved in making a well marked saddle. George may know what all is in them but I don't claim to. I do know that it's a pattern that requires a few genes to make it happen. Spread has nothing to do with pattern genes only that it covers things like bars and checks.

Bill


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## Squab81 (Dec 24, 2008)

So saddle is a multi genetic result, and your saying that a saddle can have spread expressed in the saddle section of the bird. That's interesting. I was talking about a self colored bird, but i thought that spread covered the same definition. 

So a self colored bird can still genetically have a saddle?

And by "mess" I'm guessing you mean all kind of mismarked saddles, random solid feathers. I wasn't worried about messing up the genetics to the saddle, just what would it take to change it to a self colored bird. Its beginning to sound more like an F4 generational process now.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*You're gettin there*



Squab81 said:


> So saddle is a multi genetic result, and your saying that a saddle can have spread expressed in the saddle section of the bird. That's interesting. I was talking about a self colored bird, but i thought that spread covered the same definition.
> 
> So a self colored bird can still genetically have a saddle?
> 
> And by "mess" I'm guessing you mean all kind of mismarked saddles, random solid feathers. I wasn't worried about messing up the genetics to the saddle, just what would it take to change it to a self colored bird. Its beginning to sound more like an F4 generational process now.


No, a self colored bird is not saddle marked. Saddle mark means that the bird is white except for the shield. Spread has nothing to do with any of this stuff and refers to the lack of bars and checks. Blue pigeons with spread factor are black whether they have white areas or not. If they have no white, they are self colored, whether they are spread, bar or check. Self merely means no white. In the case of a white pigeon, if it has no color, you could call it a self white.

Yes, by mess, I mean lots of mismarks, ruining the pattern of a good saddle. Nicely marked saddles can be a bit of a challenge and normally do throw some mismarks even from the good ones. George could tell you if they have gotten better over the years. I haven't had any saddle marked birds to speak of in years.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Okay, it appears everyone has it and doesn't have it. Let's tighten up on the terminology a bit just to make things easier. This particular bird actually looks to BE a spread. Spread and self are not necessarily the same thing. Here's where we bump into genetics and breeder terminology. First: let's go back a step. If this bird were a black saddle it would be easier to understand, so let's pretend that it is. A black saddle is a spread bird (Spread being the genetics description for why the bird is a black) However, saddle is the fancier description for why it's a white bird with shied-marked wings only. Let's pretend now that the bird in question is a andalusian saddle. Now we'd have a hetero Indigo, Spread, bird with shield marking. What if it was a "laced" saddle marked bird? Now we can have a spread bird with various other factors as well as saddle. This bird (at least to me and I don't claim to be an expert at some of this) looks to be a spread Dominant opal check. The check markings which wouldn't normally be seen under the "Spread" or black are highlighted out by the dominant opal.

Now we come to the other crux of the question - pairing this bird up. (Personally, I just call Ku and ask him. that guy probably knows more about saddle than I ever will)

It's not the Spread and the saddle that you should be seriously concerned about, it's how does saddle and non-saddle (wild-type) interact and that's the challenge. Whenever I've seen saddle x wild-type (any non-saddle bird) crosses, the F1 have always been sort of splashed birds. Some years ago, I do remember seeing some data about such crosses but I have no idea now where I did see them. There were always lots of foul feathers though for quite a while. Best I can suggest here is what others have; pair your bird to a good black if you have one (only because it appears that your bird is already spread and you might as well keep that part of it); then keep backcrossing the babies to mom. I'd stick with the non-opal ones so you don't have to worry so much are Dom opal problems with some.

BTW - that link for the club site just takes me nowhere - to a page that says there's nothing up yet.
Frank


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## Squab81 (Dec 24, 2008)

Thanks Frank, that makes sense. What if my black male carries recessive opal? 
I dont think that would be an issue, but i wanted to ask anyway.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

If he carries recessive opal, then you just stand a 50-50 chance of any young getting that as well. Recessive opal spread (sometimes I've seen it called pewter) is also a somewhat attractive color as well. I've never, to my knowledge seen a dominant opal recessive opal combination so I've no idea what it would look like if at some point you get that combination.


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