# canker bird-how to medicate?



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

We were out looking for our lost diapered pigeon Biko today when Aias saw a pigeon with some thread around his feet. He caught it with some effort, we brought it home and took the thread off. It wasn't cutting into the toes, no broken skin or swelling, so the thread hadn't been there that long. Also killed 9 pigeon flies. Anyway we noticed the pigeon was making a strange sound, looked down his throat and there seems to be some pretty severe canker. At first I thought there was canker plus a seed stuck there, but examining closer, I think it's just a big chunk of canker. There's a small open area of the throat but certainly a pill won't fit down there. I can't imagine putting a syringe in there either. We have Spartrix. How do we do this?

Sabina


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You can disolve the whole Spartrix pill in a bit of water and syringe it down. That way he will still get the whole dose of Spartrix and won 't get stuck.

Reti


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

What if the syringe doesn't fit down his throat? What if we dislodge some of the canker? Hmm what if we crop-drop it? Would there be a risk of aspirating?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Don't put the syringe down the throat as if you "scrape" the canker it might bleed a lot. Give the solution into the pic, drop by drop, let him swallow it.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just ooze it in slowly over a long period of time.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Reti and Pidgey. I dissolved the Spartrix in WAAAY too much water--it looked like a little bit in the cup, but it turned out to be about 10 cc. We gave 5 cc over about 20 minutes. And then decided to take a break, cause it looked like it wasn't really going down anymore. At least she's getting hydrated! (Aias is pretty sure it's a she.) Just hoping she doesn't throw it up now...


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Oh and what should we do about feeding? The bird has only pooped twice in the last 5 hours.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina, 



You need a small diameter ( say 1/8th of an inch outer diameter ) thin wall, soft 'tube' such as a section of a pediatric Catheter or Veterinary small Animal Catheter.

Any decent strip medical supply place or friendly Vet will have them.

They cost like 85 cents to maybe $1.25


Soft opaque Silicone is a good choice, like boiled 'Spaghetti' in it's softness and ease of bending.


Use about three inches or so of the Catherer starting an inch or so from the end. Cutoff and discard the factory end, and make a new end an inch or two up...since the factory ends often have holes in them along the sides and you do not want those.

Cut the end you are going to use so it has a 'Julianne' cut, an acute angle cut on the end.

This, fitted to a smaller or medium Syringe, allows one to 'twirl' the Catheter section through the occulation in the Throat.

I have never seen one where this would not work.


When you look into the Throat, you will see some hint of an opening somewhere, and if not then aim for one side or the other and twirl...and this then is what you aim for and twirl the Catheter through the occulations...making absolutely sure you are not inadvertantly entering his Tracheal opening.


This then allows thin nutritious meals to be put directly into their Crop.

K-T or similar, 'Nutrical', fruit concentrates, whatever else as will when mixed, pass nicely through the Catheter.

Along with whatever Water soluable Medications or rehydrations one wishes to do.


The Syringe end of the Catheter section...you warm the end over a Match or other small flame, having slid the end onto a sharp Pencil first...warm it that way and when it warms it is more yielding and you can slide it on further.


Warm it with the end already slid as far as it will go, on the end of a sharp Pencil...and slide it on more...warm it some more, slide it on a little more, untill that end is large enough in inside diameter for it to slide on and fit snugly over the ( usually 'Luer Loc' ) end of the Syringe.

Thus you have a Kit then, for a very safe and gentle Tube-Feeding to proceed.


Make the lengh of the Catheter section just long enough to ensure the end of it will be just above the bottom of their Crop inside, when the Syringe itself is close to their Beak...


If the Canker is compromising how liquids will behave in her mouth, 'dribbleing' liquids in their Beak can be very dangerous if these end up going into her Trachea because their Throat is filling up too fast.

as well as that you will never get enough hydration or nutritioninto them by 'dribbleing' onto a Throat which is more or less clogged so that the surface tension of the liquid water or foods will not easily pass it.

Hence, the soft Silicone tube when 'twirled' with the end as described, can be used to drill through or around the Canker occulations, and once the end is well down into their Crop, allow liquids or liquid foods to be put directly and safely into their Crop.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Phil. I can get a pediatric catheter from work. We'll wait till tomorrow to feed her though. At least she got well-hydrated tonight, it was about 20 cc that I dissolved the pill in. I figure that way also, the Spartrix has some time to work. I do worry though with the tube what would happen if there is canker further down in the esophagus where we can't see? We did get the Nutrical, how much should we give? Oh i just realized we won't wait for me to get home from work tomorrow to feed the bird, Aias will have to get the tube from the vet. 
Ok it is past my bedtime...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina, 


The 'narrow' part of their Esophagus is not very long...past the narrow part is Crop...


The 'Julianne' cut Crop 'end' of the Catheter section will drill through the relatively soft Canker occlusions, or, more likely, will merely 'drill' between them and curve as it needs to as it does so...and these occlusions will only be presenting a barrier of sorts in the Throat proper and some little ways below that in the narrow portion of the Esophagus before it widens into being the Crop.

Best if one may hold the Pigeon with his Beak open to a normal comfortable limit of open-ness, and, for his Throat to be pointed straight 'up', and for one's manner of holding this to also stretch his Neck out fully into a straight vertical line...and for this, to hold the Bird gently wrapped, "Spigotted" between one's knees so the entire pathway the Catheter shall go, to be straight 'down' and in a stright line...and to work under a close bright light to see well.



So, my own appreciation is to aim for the Center area of their Throat in order to twirl the 'Julianne Cut' end of the Catheter through and between the lesions, rather than to have it against the side of their Throat and Esophagus, ( unless there is actually a small opening or path there on the side, in which case it will be found to go all the way into the Crop just fine and with no dangers) since these sides beneath the lesions might be rather thin or delicate form the Canker effecting them, and one would not want the Catheter end to somehow pass through an effected tenuous ( or already perforated for all one knows ) area whose normal strength and tone and so on is not presently there to resist.


There is almost always some little 'hole' or hint of one amid the lesions, somewhere...and this makes it easy to just pass the twirling Catheter on through that path.

I have never had one not pass easily when twirled...even if it might take more than one try as one seek out the best place amid the blockage to try for.


Good luck with this!


Phil
l v


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

i gave the bird some seeds, 5 at first to see where she was at. and she ate them all. about ten minutes later i gaver her 10 more and she ate these too. however, she is a bit foamy and sticky in the beak. last night when we were giving her the dissolved spartrix we noticed some of the foaminess as well. what gives?

i should point out that the big cheesy globule of canker that we spotted at the entrance of her throat was pretty much gone by the time we finally finished dribbling the dissolved spartrix. it took us about an hour to feed her the spartrix.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2007)

You're not going to get anywhere feeding seed. It will become stuck in the canker lesions and fluid that builds up with acute canker. The seed can wind up rotting in the throat causing more problems. A tube is dangerous because you don't know how far down the lesions go and if the tube hits a lesion, it can break open and cause a bad bleed which can cause death by aspiration.

The best way to get nutrition into the bird is to use Purina Puppy Chow. Throw the pieces into water just to get them wet. Use a Q-Tip. Drop one piece into the mouth and gently nudge it down using the swab. Just get it by the lesion you see and it isn't necessary to go deep with the swab. If the lesion is in the center of the throat, then push the piece down the left or right side. If the lesion is on the right side, then push the Chow down the left side. If the pieces are too big and could hit the lesion because of their size, then cut them in half. To be able to see what is going on, you really need a strong artificial light source like a halogen.

Use one Spartrix a day for five days and the fluid will begin to dry in about four days. Canker, especially the acute type always comes with bacterial infection so use an antibiotic too. Don't use Metronadazole because that drug will not hit the gram positive or gram negative bacteria that comes with canker.

Just because the canker clears up doesn't mean the bird is out of danger. It can take another month or so before the body heals the area where the lesions will have been. If the bird is released before that happens, the unprotected tissues are going to be open to another canker attack or any other infection that comes along.

Don't syringe water down a cankerous bird. It can reflux back and go into the trachea. With these birds, you have to let them drink on their own.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

ok, puppy chow it is. the big cheesy glob that was there blocking the throat last night is gone so there are no visible obstructions should still use the qtip or just place it in her mouth and let her swallow on her own?


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2007)

Aias,
I don't know how to advise you. Put a wet piece in his mouth and see if he swallows it. If not, you have to get it down using the swab. Don't forget, this is a very painful illness and he may not be able to overcome the pain of swallowing. Talk about a sore throat.... Sometimes, you have to manipulate the food from the outside by physically moving it down the throat. You have to see what happens and make a decision as to how to best feed using the Chow.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

hmm, i am having second thoughts about the feeding i fed a few small pieces but man it got so sticky!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> You're not going to get anywhere feeding seed. It will become stuck in the canker lesions and fluid that builds up with acute canker. The seed can wind up rotting in the throat causing more problems. A tube is dangerous because you don't know how far down the lesions go and if the tube hits a lesion, it can break open and cause a bad bleed which can cause death by aspiration.
> 
> The best way to get nutrition into the bird is to use Purina Puppy Chow. Throw the pieces into water just to get them wet. Use a Q-Tip. Drop one piece into the mouth and gently nudge it down using the swab. Just get it by the lesion you see and it isn't necessary to go deep with the swab. If the lesion is in the center of the throat, then push the piece down the left or right side. If the lesion is on the right side, then push the Chow down the left side. If the pieces are too big and could hit the lesion because of their size, then cut them in half. To be able to see what is going on, you really need a strong artificial light source like a halogen.
> 
> ...




Hi pigeonperson, 


It does not seem as if we are talking about the same thing - 


If a Pigeons Throat is entirely full and blocked with Lesions, are you saying then to use a Q-tip to force 'puppy chow' through the lesions, or to somehow force all the occulating lesions themselves, down the Bird's Throat, by forcing them to let go, useing 'puppy chow', pushed by a Q- Tip, as a means of dealing with the condition?


This would seem very dangerous and painful to me...if not likely lethal for the Bird.


Or are you thinking of situations in which one is seeing merely 'some' small lesions on the sides of the throat? Past which a piece of pre-soaked 'puppy chow' could be forced or pushed?


If their Throat is in fact blocked deeply and fullly with rubbery lesions, how do you expect to force pieces of 'puppy chow' through them, or use puppy chow to force the lesions theselves, down the Bird's Throat?

These lesions effect the previously normal elasticity of the Throat, so that forcing the membranes to radically widen, could cause them to tear or perforate.


What would lead you to expect the pieces of 'puppy chow' one forces down, to even be able to pass from the Crop into the Stomach? - especially if Canker is effecting the aperature and muscle tone of the Crop's duct or passage to the Stomach?

These lesions are often quite firmly adhering to the Throat, and will not come off easily, and if they are forced off, there can be quite serious bleeding, or perforations resulting.


Anyway...are we having the same conditions in mind here?


Obviously this Bird did not have the kind of obturances or blockage as initially described, or they would not have been gone in a day.


Probably, some peripheral lesions ere only appearing to be entirely blocking, by virtue of incidental mucous or other matter making it look like a solid plug of lesions.


Too, I would think that generally, any Canker Throat Pigeon, once well enough or having room enough in his Throat, for being given or allowed Seeds, should have only very 'small' Seeds...and not regular or large ones. 



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Might do better to feed very small amounts spaced well apart through the day then.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2007)

Aias,
Try and stay with this. It's going to be sticky until the fluid in the mouth dries and it will do that in between 4-5 days when the Spartrix begins to have an impact on the canker. In the meantime, this bird can't be allowed to use up his body fat so he has to have food. Droppings will look lousy for about a week to a week and a half so expect that.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*the thing is*

the thing is that when i try to feed the puppy chow, regardless of how small i cut and soak it, the bird really freaks out, like it is painful or scary and she appears to have trouble breathing. so, to me, i get the impression that i am making it worse by blocking the passage way until she can get it down herself.

in the seed experiment she seemed genuinely happy to eat them, even though it took a couple of tries for her to succeed. the foaming thing makes me uncomfortable, i dont think i have ever had a pigeon with canker this bad so i have never seen the foaming at the beak thing before.

although i suspect that the previous patient, snoop dogg, that died in my hands as i was feeding it had canker that bad but further down. and i killed him when i tube fed him and must have ripped one of those canker lesions.
i feel really bad about snoop dog, which is why i have been so hesitant with the new guest.

thanks for all your suggestions, it is very very helpful. now that biko is back i feel more calm in dealing with the new one.

i am using tiny seeds by the way.



pigeonperson said:


> Aias,
> Try and stay with this. It's going to be sticky until the fluid in the mouth dries and it will do that in between 4-5 days when the Spartrix begins to have an impact on the canker. In the meantime, this bird can't be allowed to use up his body fat so he has to have food. Droppings will look lousy for about a week to a week and a half so expect that.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

In birds like this, with bad canker, I have tried bird pellets, the small to medium sized. I soaked them in water for a bit and then put them in their mouths. It worked pretty well so far for me.
If you uncomfartable with this and the seed feeding takes too long you can feed formula with a syringe, if you put it at the tip of the beak he should be able swallow it.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Aias and Sabina,

It will be a few days before the real 'meltdown' for the caseous obstructions
to be on its' way in any significant way....at which time you will have more options for feeding. Seeds aren't a great idea for a bird w/very bad canker
as already explained, so it's really a question of what you are comfortable 
with as you are there in the moment and see the response. To the list of
suggestions, Kaytee formula in a very watery format made w/vitamin
water will at least tide the bird over until s/he is able to handle something 
more substantial. If at all like the Spartrix in water ordeal, it will be tedious
and time consuming but you won't dislodge lesions and the bird will get some
nutritional support.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

We just gave the second Spartrix, this time with 5cc water. When we started the med, the bird had a few little seeds stuck in her throat and the canker was bleeding a little tiny bit. So that doesn't seem like it's working. 

You're right Phil, what we first saw obstructing the throat must've been some food caught there, not canker. The canker lesions that are visible are small and just on one side of the throat, not obstructive.

However, there could be bigger lesions further down, so I think you are right Reti and fp, the best thing is drops of formula in the beak. It does take a long time, but it is the safest. So we will do that next.

At least this time when we gave the Spartrix, there was no foaming and very little grunty sneezy sounds. Much better than last time.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

hi sabina,


typing with one hand at the moment...


can he drink?


he needs a lot more hydration than drops-in-beak are going to do.


if he can drink, may as well mix the meds in a small thing of tepid water, sweeten it even so it tastes okay...and let him drink them.



phil
lv


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I think the way Aias and Sabina are medicating this bird is the safest way in terms of ensuring the meds are getting delivered into the bird's system. This
one is going to take some patience and time intially until the canker starts 
melting/dissipating.

fp


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2007)

Phil,

There is no safe way down but instead, there is only the safest way. I'm not saying to push the food through the canker. That would surely kill the bird. I'm trying to relay that if the canker is on one side, then the safest route would be to get the food down the opposite side. If it's on both sides, then try to get the food down the center. There is no easy way and it requires a lot of care and patience. A qualified vet could surgically remove some of the lesions to make feeding safer but we all don't have that luxury. 

This is acute canker where fluid is being generated. In chronic canker, at least there is no fluid being created and you know where the canker is. Here, it's growing wildly and there is no telling where it is in the body besides being in the throat.

Every canker infection is different and so there is no hard and fast rule about how to get nutrition into a bird. We each have to try and find our best level of care and be a little inventive. It's whatever works. 

Aias, very gently and a lot of gentleness is needed, try to clear out the fluid with a swab so you can see what is going on in there. Don't touch the lesions with the swab but try to get some fluid absorbed. You may be able to see the area a little better.

Birds come down with canker because there is something else going on in the system including but not limited to malnutrition. If there was no bacterial infection to begin with, there is certainly one now so an antibiotic is needed in addition to the Spartrix.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

i think the bird is doing much better, today she didnt make any of the bronchitis sounds and there is no more foaming at the beak. well this morning her beak was a little sticky but in the evening no. i am sure she was also dehydrated she is not a very big drinker. because of that also i think that formula was the right choice.

i spent many hours feeding her her spartrix and also 26ml of formula. would it be bad if i dissolved her spartrix into her formula? that would save me an hour.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Aias said:


> i think the bird is doing much better, today she didnt make any of the bronchitis sounds and there is no more foaming at the beak. well this morning her beak was a little sticky but in the evening no. i am sure she was also dehydrated she is not a very big drinker. because of that also i think that formula was the right choice.
> 
> i spent many hours feeding her her spartrix and also 26ml of formula. would it be bad if i dissolved her spartrix into her formula? that would save me an hour.


Glad to hear that she is doing better this evening, Aias. I don't think it would
be bad to disolve Spartrix into the formula as long as you aren't having part of the batch go unused w/each sitting. Saving an hour is quite a savings.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Aias said:


> i think the bird is doing much better, today she didnt make any of the bronchitis sounds and there is no more foaming at the beak. well this morning her beak was a little sticky but in the evening no. i am sure she was also dehydrated she is not a very big drinker. because of that also i think that formula was the right choice.
> 
> i spent many hours feeding her her spartrix and also 26ml of formula. would it be bad if i dissolved her spartrix into her formula? that would save me an hour.



Hi Alias, 



Hard to keep track of all this sometimes, thread-to-thread...


But lets say, if this were a Pigeon I was caring for...I would tube feed him five times a day ( five times over 18 hours in 24, ) of smallish Meals...making sure he was also pooping enough to encourage the amounts being given him...and each feed-time ( aside from warming the formula ) then would take about 30 seconds.

I would dissolve his dose of meds IN the Syringe with minimal water, then draw some of the formula up into it, and shake so all is mixed well together, then draw however much more of the formula which that meal would be and shake that around too to mix it all as best as possible...so he gets his Meds at the same time as the food.

Or, dissolve the meds in a tiny round bottom Glass, and add enough formula for that meal, mix well, warm all uniformly IN that Glass, then draw up all into the Syringe for feeding.

By 'tube feed' I mean a soft, slender, yielding, 'tube' such as I outlined quite a while back, which one fits to the end of any suitable Syringe...which 'tube' one inserts into his Throat - into his Esophagus - at the rear ( and not of course into his Trachea through which he Breathes and which is forward of the back-of-his-Throat ) so the end of the 'tube' is ultimately IN the mid area of their Crop, to dispense the formula 'there'.


One usually lubricates the tube with a little Olive Oil so it slides in as nice as possible...


If you wish to do this, and never have, please ask us for a review on how to do it.


Otherwise, for a Pigeon who is not willingly eating and drinking, you are facing a lot of compromise or hassles or dangers, to get him the hydration and nourishment he needs.



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aias, bless your heart.

We are working right now with a sick little guy and one of the medicines he is getting is Nystatin which, depending on their weight, can be a lot to give at one time - in his case it is over 1 cc. I put the Nystatin in his 10 cc feeding syringe, then draw up the formula and give that to him. Works really well.

He is also getting Baytril but we give that straight because I want to make sure he gets it all. Rarely, he does spit up a small amount of formula and I feel we can risk losing a bit of the Nystatin more than the Baytril.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

thanks for those suggestions, i dissolved the spartrix with the small amount of formula i gave and everything worked out fine.

so today is day 3 with the spartrix, when i tube fed her this morning there were no obstructions that i could feel when putting the tube down. it slid in as easy as tubing the non-canker babies i have tubed in the past. there is nothing wrong with her appetite, she can and would gladly eat the small seeds i have. i was cautioned about the dangers of the seed getting stuck and rotting in the crop or somewhere in her throat so i opted for the formula. she is not a big drinker, i was thinking that she just wouldnt drink in front of me but the time i gave her seeds she had no problems eating in front of me. why would she not feel like drinking? she must drink when i am not watching because her poo is not dry.

for antibiotics i have appertex in 2.5mg tablets and enroxil in 7.5mg tablets. which one should i opt for? oh wait i should go weigh her.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Aias said:


> ......
> 
> for antibiotics i have appertex in 2.5mg tablets and enroxil in 7.5mg tablets. which one should i opt for? oh wait i should go weigh her.


Appertex is actually Clazuril and is primarily used for Coccidiosis, Aias. I wonder
if you have any Trimethoprim Sulpha on hand as this medication can be used
for Coccidial overburden in addition to anaerobic bacteria. Otherwise, I would go 
w/a course of Enrofloxan/Baytril. Either can be initiated while still finishing
up w/the canker meds.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Aias said:


> thanks for those suggestions, i dissolved the spartrix with the small amount of formula i gave and everything worked out fine.
> 
> so today is day 3 with the spartrix, when i tube fed her this morning there were no obstructions that i could feel when putting the tube down. it slid in as easy as tubing the non-canker babies i have tubed in the past. there is nothing wrong with her appetite, she can and would gladly eat the small seeds i have. i was cautioned about the dangers of the seed getting stuck and rotting in the crop or somewhere in her throat so i opted for the formula. she is not a big drinker, i was thinking that she just wouldnt drink in front of me but the time i gave her seeds she had no problems eating in front of me. why would she not feel like drinking? she must drink when i am not watching because her poo is not dry.
> 
> for antibiotics i have appertex in 2.5mg tablets and enroxil in 7.5mg tablets. which one should i opt for? oh wait i should go weigh her.



Hi Aias, 



Plain Water can feel stinging to a sore Throat...

Tepid 'Electrolyte' Water will be more likely to be accepted...and may even feel soothing.


Not a guarantee she will drink, but worth trying..!


You can make a simply version by dissolving a good 'pinch' of common Table Salt, and of regular Sugar, into a Tea Cup of Water, then serve warm...


Might just do the trick...



Similarly, various Herb Teas, served tepid...can feel soothing, or even taste really good to them, so they will drink these when refusing plain Water.

Fennel - Camomile - Licorice, or, Camomile - Roze Hip - Sassafrass - Licorice... might be a good copmbos to try...for which you may have to buy three or four seperate Teas in order to combine them.


And then, you can let her eat a bunch of small Seeds, and any 'sticky' ones will get washed on down when she drinks the warm Tea or electolytes.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

yes, it took me this long to find a scale!
the apt. is so sad, mass disorganization. anyway she weighs 225 grams. and sabina has named her frida (khalo).

so the baytril is a 7.5mg tablet how much should i give her?

oh and phil, i am giving her a pediatric electrolyte but will try chamomile tomorrow.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Aias,

The old formulary entry for Baytril was 15 mg/kg, PO, BID and the newer ones are 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID. If the bird weighs 225 grams then you convert that to kilograms so: 0.225 kilograms. You can take that number and multiply it by the dosage range to get:

0.225 * 15 = 3.375 milligrams per dose or about 1/4 of the tablet.

If you go with the 20 mg/kg:

0.225 * 20 = 4.5 milligrams per dose, closer to 1/3 of the tablet.

If you went with the 5 mg/kg"

0.225 & 5 = 1.125 milligrams per dose, 1/13th of the tablet.

I just did that so that you can see how it works. Me, I'd stay with the 15 mg/kg, PO, BID and give that bird 1/4 of the tablet, twice per day.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

Pidgey,

Here is some information that indicates the minumum dose is 20mg per kg.

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/139-879.html

Now, I don't agree with this FDA study to the extent that these pigeons were tested without having any lesions present in the GI tract. They did not wait long enough for lesions to establish themselves nor did they comment on the fact that the trichomonads can travel to the liver and other parts of the body and also, that the infections were not given enough time to embed themselves deeply into tissues making it more difficult to get at them. I'm positive the duration of the drug given over such a short period of time would have been altered had there been lesions present and the infections embedded deeply into the tissues which makes it a lot harder to kill them off. 

In other words, they put a minimum of 100,000 trichomonads into the birds and then killed them off with one dose of 20 mg/kg....no big deal there. They should have waited for tissue damage and then test to see how long it took to kill it off. I think this is a flawed study.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Interestingly, if you go to the chart at Beyer's website and look up the pigeon
specific entry for Baytril, the dosage is 10-20mg per kilogram once per day.

If you multiplied 225 x 20 then divide by 1000 you'd get 4.5 for a dose rate
which could be given once a day as an alternate to the twice daily dosing.
The problem would be in having the pill form w/out compounding it for more
of a metered dosing. Here is a Sticky on Baytril dosing from the Resource
Section. You will see a link to the Baytril site there in Cynthia's post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16368

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's an interesting study on Carnidazole, Fred....got it bookmarked.

fp


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

Oh Boy!, I'm thinking Spartrix and you were all talking about Baytril. My error.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Oh Boy!, I'm thinking Spartrix and you were all talking about Baytril. My error.



Fred, that's the first time that I've seen that study, so I'm glad you posted
the link...thanks for that.

fp


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

Hi fp,
Well, it is interesting and it could generate some discussion but I still feel the study is flawed. I cut my finger and put on an antibiotic ointment. If the bacteria go deep, the ointment won't stop the infection. Same thing with canker in my opinion. Once it goes into the tissues, one dose is not going to kill all of them.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

ok so if 1+1=...umm, 2 then...

so 1/4 twice a day, thanks for doing the math for me


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Hi fp,
> Well, it is interesting and it could generate some discussion but I still feel the study is flawed. I cut my finger and put on an antibiotic ointment. If the bacteria go deep, the ointment won't stop the infection. Same thing with canker in my opinion. Once it goes into the tissues, one dose is not going to kill all of them.



Fred, I was referring to Baytril, and there have been studies done on that family of medications regarding how long it stays in the bloodstream and the
efficacy of one treatment in a 24 hour period as opposed to two treatments
in a 24 hour period. I have avian vets who treat both ways.

Now where the antibiotics go that are used as protozoals as well, I fully agree
that dosing twice a day is better as it utilizes the antibacterial side of the
medication as well, or at least this is my understanding from what I've read.

fp

Yes, Aias...1+1=#[email protected]?#


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

so 1/4 tablet twice a day for how many days?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Aias, the answer to that question is a flexible one, in that the medicine
can be given for extended time frames dependant on the situation. I would
give Baytril to this bird for at least 10-14 days. You can give probiotics
mid-day if someone is home and available to do so. See how the the bird
is responding towards the end of the time-frame. 

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Went back, read this thread again and I'm not sure why you even want to start the bird on Baytril. Are there any other symptoms besides the canker issue? Did I miss something?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Went back, read this thread again and I'm not sure why you even want to start the bird on Baytril. Are there any other symptoms besides the canker issue? Did I miss something?
> 
> Pidgey


In severe/acute cases of canker, a follow up antibiotic to deal w/tissue damage
and infection either real or potential is frequently initiated. I think this link to a single post is the first mention where this is reflected:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=236505&postcount=12

fp


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## Zenmont (Oct 17, 2006)

*I've Had Great Success With Recent Canker Birds!*

Hi Sabina and Aias,

I recently have had two canker cases in the last three weeks. The first one was pretty bad. Rehabbers at Animal General didn't hold out much hope for him. He is currently now free of canker and ready to be released in a few days. Because of his initial condition, he had a lot of mucous in his mouth that would cause a "log jam" of seeds to form when he ate. So I named him "Mookus". I read this thread quickly so I apologize if I bring up something that might have already been covered. But Sabina/Aias...why don't you bring him to Animal General like you've done with your PMV bird? Because of the inability to eat, Animal General showed me specifically how to tube feed and supplied me with the syringes, tubes, medications, etc. They also gave me Kaytee Exact Food to feed the birds approx 3 times per day. We also mix the meds directly into those same feeding tubes. When the canker is bad, you are almost chancing it trying to get one of those other 1 ml syringes down their throat. Better to tube feed using a 20 ml syringe and a 8 to 10 size rubber hose. Then you can also get more food down in one shot. Before we started the birds on Spartrix, we put them on a more powerful drug used for really bad cases of Trich, called Ronsec. After a week or so of that in varying doses, we put the birds on Spartrix. Trimethoprim Sulpha (an antibiotic to keep down infection when the cankers pull away and start bleeding), Nystatin to keep yeast from forming or in case they have yeast already, and something called Medicam to bring done inflammation. One bird was also on Albon (for high levels of coccidia) and panacur for roundworms. All of this goes right into the same tube so you don't have to spend hours stressing yourself out and possibly the bird. Every eight hours I do a feeding and sometimes I have to swab out the mucous of the second bird (who I'm thinking of naming "Allotta"....as in "Allotta Mucous"). Allotta has an appointment tomorrow at AG due to what looks like Thrush in his mouth now. Our main worry is that the beak may be dislocated. If you go there, try to get Rita. She is very savy about this and I feel the best at curing this disease. She's in today (Tuesday), Thursday and Saturday. If you need any help Sabina/Aias, just PM me. If it's too far for you to go up there, you can bring him to me (I'm on the lower east side) and I'll bring the bird up in a cab. AG also does a fecal workup and will give meds accordingly. Good luck!


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hi Zenmont,
The bird is doing well now. No visible canker after having had 6 days of Spartrix. She eats seeds on her own, but Aias has also been tube feeding formula to fatten her up a bit before release. She's getting Baytril in case of secondary infection, we've been giving Benebac (probiotic) and we wormed her with 2 drops of Ivermectin. I suppose we didn't take her to AG since she got better quickly with the Spartrix--it was only difficult the first 2 days or so. I appreciate your offer of help though, that's very nice of you. If we ever have difficulty getting a bird to AG, we'll let you know! 
Sabina


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## Zenmont (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi Sabina,

How bad was his canker? With my birds, we had to do TWO rounds of Spartrix even though it looked like it was cleared up (1 pill a day for 5 days, 2 days off, then repeat). And that was AFTER giving Ronsec for a week or so. Just hope your administration of one round is enough so that the trich is completely gone by the time you release him. Even if you don't see trich it could still be lurking in the crop or elsewhere.

*Please read on (a couple of comments down) to see my retraction of my above statement.*


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Zenmont said:


> Hi Sabina and Aias,
> 
> All of this goes right into the same tube so you don't have to spend hours stressing yourself out and possibly the bird.



That is a tremendous amount and variety of medicines to give at one time. Our vet has always recommended waiting about an hour between even two different medications. Wonder if you could ask AG specifically about this for us?


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

Sabina,
It's wonderful news to know that the bird is on his way to a full recovery.


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## Zenmont (Oct 17, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> That is a tremendous amount and variety of medicines to give at one time. Our vet has always recommended waiting about an hour between even two different medications. Wonder if you could ask AG specifically about this for us?


You know, AG said it was okay, but I've since found out that AG was overmedicating the birds I had. I talked to an actual avian vet at another location and he didn't understand why I was given Ronsec and then two rounds of Spartrix. He said that was too much. Usually you give one round of Spartrix for five days (or sometimes only one pill and a second pill the following week). Ronsec is only used if all other meds fail. So I have to think that mixing all the meds together might not have been wise either. Another example of disparity occurred when I brought "Allotta" (now renamed "Fridgie") in a couple of days ago. AG said he had to be put down, no doubt about it, cause the trich had eaten into the side of his cheek/jaw. I couldn't do it. This bird is the feistiest bird I've ever seen. He's a fighter. So I took him to the vet instead and he removed all the diseased matter including some dead skin in his cheek. He has a small hole there now, but it should heal over. The vet felt his chances are very good for a complete recovery. So please don't pay attention to my earlier post.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Zenmont, 



Excellent news..!


Good going...!


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Zenmont, thank you for your reply. I'm really happy you didn't listen to them about Fridgie. I know we depend on vets but sometimes we just have to go with our gut feeling. Good for you!


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## Zenmont (Oct 17, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Zenmont, thank you for your reply. I'm really happy you didn't listen to them about Fridgie. I know we depend on vets but sometimes we just have to go with our gut feeling. Good for you!


The bird people at AG are rehabbers not vets. Sometimes they do wonderful things, but sometimes I've found they're off the mark, especially when it comes to PMV birds. They insist they have to be put to sleep and I won't go along with that. There are many wonderful rehabbers out there, but when it comes to AG, I always get a second opinion if the outcome is dire. Well..., a second opinion is always valuable no matter who you talk to.


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