# babies dying



## doveman2 (Jul 22, 2012)

last year i was only able to raise 3 young birds out of 12 hatching. this year i hatched 6 and all 6 have died they die around 15-20 days old. my coop is clean,dry no rodents ect. all of the parents are in good shape. the babies all had food in their crop and in the morning they are dead i have never had a sick loft in 45 years of having birds. any help would be helpful.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Will email my friend and see what he thinks. Im gonna guess canker. I think I remember reading that if there is sudden death when they all look fine. I will also check my books.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. Corn: #1do you remember finding whole corn in their crop every time, because i link this to the tumbler breeds which have not been fed on corn for ages, so they need to adopt. The whole yellow corn in racing mix does this all the time. The corn gets sour in their crop and possibly poisons them. 
Another thing is a mild bacterial infection which they get from the parents that reaches to lethal #s in about two weeks. 
#2Do the young breed kind of heavy with a slightly open beaks?
#3What about cold weather?
#4Have you tried pigeon pellets for breeders?
#5Do the young have any red spots on their face: Peck marks?
I sometimes atopsy the fallen by myself. I look for smelly crop, liver issues and worms. 
I wish i knew how to check for temperature on pigeons. I am guessing an infrared thermometer might work on the young. 
#6What breed of birds you got?


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Pretty cold up your way...As the babies get bigger,parents can`t cover them when it`s real cold to protect them...They can freeze real easy......I don`t feed pellets,or corn to parents feeding babies....I give them peas & safflower....Once the babies are weaned at 26+ days old,I add a little popcorn to the mix....It wouldn`t hurt to put some 4 in 1 med in your water at 1/2 strenght,one or two days to see if your problem stops...Do this at the 12/14 day old stage....If the parents are free of excessive bacteria in their system,the YB`s should make it to the weaning stage....A little bacteria from parents to babies is OK.....It helps them get some immunity from the NORMAL germs that is in your loft....Alamo


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Here is what friend says....

The timing of the deaths is common. It is at this age that the immunity that
they inherit from their parents, wears off. What is wrong is tough to figure
out, if there are no symptoms. There is no doubt, the sickness is from the
parents, and they are strong enough to fight it off. I assume, that they did
not die from the extreme cold? I lost 13 in one night, but those were all
still in the nest.

Ask if there are any symptoms in the parents. 
Jerry


Ok so if my birds, I would give a round of canker meds to the parents and a general antibiotic for ecoli and salmonella and do this and try breeding again. I have seen in my pigeon books that they do this preventative stuff and ALOT more every season before pairing AND a lot more. I just do this much and try. Maryann

Oh and forgot to add any med for coccidia too. I generally use the 4 in 1 meds for stuff like this. You could always do a fecal on the parents and get a definitive count in case one of them is high, but as I said, I would save that money and do the seasonal pre breeding protocol and go from there since you are not saying anything is obvious with the birds right. Will check the pigeon bible today. See if I find any specifics to dying in nest at that age.


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## Sky Horse (Feb 18, 2015)

*Bible*



CBL said:


> Will check the pigeon bible today.


Sounds like a great book, can you give us the ISBN# for the book as well as author/s? Thanks.

Many good thoughts here for possible reasons.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ok here is the reply from Jerry when I said I would start the parents on 4-1....

Your suggestions is one I would have offered. There is no way to make an
educated guess. I think an antibiotic, at this point, would be the drug of
choice. Amoxicillin would be something to try, give to the breeders and the
young, in the drinking water for 7-10 days, it may not be the answer but it is a good start.

Jerry


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

*My books are...*



Sky Horse said:


> Sounds like a great book, can you give us the ISBN# for the book as well as author/s? Thanks.
> 
> Many good thoughts here for possible reasons.


The flying Vets Pigeon Health and Mangagement, both old and new volumes.

I do have others as well. I just simply remember reading something that said, when young die suddenly in the nest, it can be from canker or ecoli/salmonella even tho the parents are shedding and healthy possible carriers, they are fine but the chicks will die. That is why the 4-1 is so good, it covers all of those.
You can get that from Foys and if you want before you start, send Foys a sample of the parents poop. 

Im no professional and I dont race but I have never lost a chick to disease. I noted you said in original post that in 45 years that you never had disease in ur flock but this stuff such as ecoli can simply multiply to illness causing numbers. Bubs are susceptible then. If you fly your birds or they have access to ground or wild birds pooping on our loft or flight decks then they get it from them, so at least there should be some protocol annually to protect against that, even if just once a year to knock numbers down


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Warning long post.....found this..I have not read all of it nor clicked on links yet but wanted to post it anyway....


Anna, Bird Expert, Biologist
Satisfied Customers: 9900
Experience: Have owned and/or raised parakeets, finches, cockatiels, and poultry over a period of thirty years.
replied*3 years ago.
Hello,

I apologize that no one has responded to your question earlier. Different experts come online at various times; I just came online and saw your question. If you still need help, some additional information may help me to answer your question.

What type of nesting material do you use?

What percentage of your babies do you lose?

What is the color of the staining on the backside?

At the point where they get sick, do they stop eating, become fluffed up, become inactive, etc.?

If you can check inside the mouths, do you see any yellowish or whitish substance?

Thank you.

Anna

Customer reply
replied*3 years ago.
Iuse nest felts in the bowls + Tobacco stalks
losses maybe 30/40%
backside dropping stick to it maybe brown in colour
the parents are still feeding them and crop can be full
have not seen anything in mouth
in one nest the2nd baby died today approx 3/4 days ol
*
Anna hope this helps

Anna, Bird Expert, Biologist replied*3 years ago.
Thank you for getting back to me. I have a few things for you to consider. Dr. David Marx, an avian vet here in the States who specializes in pigeons and races them himself, has linked the use of nest pads/felts with high infant mortality rates in pigeons.When no other cause can be found for the deaths of babies still in the nest, he's found that is often the link. The nest felts allow bacteria to grow at alarming rates, and large colonies can remain present from one clutch to the next. He recommends removing as much other nesting material, droppings, etc. from the felts as you can after the babies leave the nest. Follow that with a soak in a bleach water solution, or Nolvasan/water solution. Then the felts should be air dried and rinsed thoroughly before using again. Dr. Marx has found that this cuts down on pigeon infant mortality. You can read his whole article here:

http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/2009/11/24/young-birds-dying-in-the-nest-early/

There are other possibilities. As you already know, and have taken precautions against, paratyphoid is one potential cause. Paramyxovirus is another. If you think that si a possibility, the only vaccine that takes care of it is Maine Biological oil-adjuvant PMV -1. It is available in Europe. A number of other diseases kill young birds in the nest, but most of them have green or yellow diarrhea as a symptom, and your nestlings haven't had that. The following site lists many diseases that affect pigeons. if you want to, you can scroll down through the list to see those that affect babies, and what to do about them. 

http://www.browardcountypigeonclub.com/Pigeon-diseases.html

Another suggestion Dr. Marx gives is take a newly dead baby into your vet to be cultured. That way, you'd know what bacteria were causing the problem. It's possible that it's something not sensitive to Baytril. You probably know that antibiotics can cause diarrhea in birds because they kill the beneficial bacteria in the intestines. Another thing you might ask your vet about is probiotics for any babies that are on antibiotics.

The nest felts may be a good place to start. if you already follow stringent disinfection of them, the next step would be to ahve a dead baby cultured. If you have more questions, let me know by clicking on REPLY.

Anna

(If you find my answer helpful, please click on the green ACCEPT button. Thank you.)


Read more: http://www.justanswer.com/pet-bird/5jgjv-racing-pigions-young-pigeons-die-nest.html#ixzz3TLtcJ6ks


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## Sky Horse (Feb 18, 2015)

Thanks, CBL.

Just to clarify - Not me with 45 yrs experience and not losing babies. But I am always up for a good education and good books to add to the cabinet should things head south.

I also didn't know that Foy's could do analysis on poop. Good to know.

I'm sure this will get doveman2 on the right track, and keep others of us more in the know just from the educational content of this post  Thanks!


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Sky horse you are MOST welcome  Always happy to help and share any infor or knowledge or lack thereof lol.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

doveman2 said:


> last year i was only able to raise 3 young birds out of 12 hatching. this year i hatched 6 and all 6 have died they die around 15-20 days old. my coop is clean,dry no rodents ect. all of the parents are in good shape. the babies all had food in their crop and in the morning they are dead i have never had a sick loft in 45 years of having birds. any help would be helpful.


HOW cold has it been IN the loft. I do not think it is any canker. As it would show. Cocsidosis Is a thought. But are the young looking as they are losing weight. But a look at cold temps. Frozen water where the parents gett off the nestto long Cusing the young to chill. This happens more at 5 to 10 days old BUT extreme cold can still get them at a little older. Far as feed I do not think so unless ellts and the birds have no water causing the crop to get tight. Regular old SULMET can help. and can be used in the watr. it cover Ecoli. salmanela. and cocsidi. Plus found local no aiting to order. What breed are you breeding


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

*Sky H*



Sky Horse said:


> Thanks, CBL.
> 
> Just to clarify - Not me with 45 yrs experience and not losing babies. But I am always up for a good education and good books to add to the cabinet should things head south.
> 
> ...


I posted links to the books I own for you. They are all great and the avian medicine has a drug compendium section in it.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

*Why?*



re lee said:


> HOW cold has it been IN the loft. I do not think it is any canker. As it would show. Cocsidosis Is a thought. But are the young looking as they are losing weight. But a look at cold temps. Frozen water where the parents gett off the nestto long Cusing the young to chill. This happens more at 5 to 10 days old BUT extreme cold can still get them at a little older. Far as feed I do not think so unless ellts and the birds have no water causing the crop to get tight. Regular old SULMET can help. and can be used in the watr. it cover Ecoli. salmanela. and cocsidi. Plus found local no aiting to order. What breed are you breeding


Why risk breeding when so cold? Just askin...
I mean it has been very cold other years, Im leaning towards slight illness in parents that the babies cant handle. I would still do an all in one treatment cuz it cant hurt. If it is the cold as some think then at least some of the ecoli and cocci is knocked down in numbers and thats a good thing. (do I sound like martha stewart lol)


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Many people do breed when it is cold. And ecoli cocsidi thrive more in cold weather as sunlight and heat kill it off. BUT if it was this. I would think the young were losing weight. And even getting unable to stand . Canker is easy to spot MOST often. Plus in the nest young often get it so bad the blow there crop As it fill with air. PLUS all having would mean all the pairs would have it. AND when it is cold and water freezes and it is a time befor it is replaced the pairs get off the nest trying to get water as they need it to feed. We need more info to know more I suggested sulmet as it is easy to get works OK and treats all the birds at one time. Use for FIVE days. But if it is just to cold then either secrue the loft tighter. Or go on hold or bring young in at 4 to 5 days and hand feed. But agin need more info. And then it is a guess not being there.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

I agree that is what my guy says, we need much more info, state of babies at death and what the parents look like as well as their poop.


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## doveman2 (Jul 22, 2012)

as for breeding when so cold i guess you can say it was a bad choice. right now i have no eggs and no young. now i need to get them cured. so much info to take in. this was the best place to ask. thanks everyone. birds are apart and will be until cured


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Awesome, so lets do this, can you take a pic of both hens and cocks poops, post for us. Take note of even their blink rates, compare one to the other and just observe them on the perch. Also when feeding, stand back and watch and see if all come to the trough. They should, if there is an odd man out and or stays on perch looking fluffed the u have an issue. If all come down to feed, good to go and continue your treatment. I will again look up the pre breeding protocol from some of my books and post for you or pm them to you. Once you do meds you WILL notice a difference even if you think your birds are healthy now, u will not an improvement. OH and VERY important, to give a probiotic in with the medicated water. I cant stress enough how much of a difference it makes. Im sorry if I sound like a broken record but for each and every time I see someone needing meds, I want to remind them of that. There will be no issue with candida or thrush from meds when given with probiotic powder. I noted when I didnt use it the birds were down and their poops were still a bit flat and green, even when on the meds. When vet told me to give WITH probiotics, within a day the poops went to normal color high and tight coil. 

Can you take before and after pics of the poops 
You sound like a great guy who really cares about his flock, happy to be here to see that.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

doveman2 said:


> as for breeding when so cold i guess you can say it was a bad choice. right now i have no eggs and no young. now i need to get them cured. so much info to take in. this was the best place to ask. thanks everyone. birds are apart and will be until cured


This might be the full answer To cold in the loft. DO you have a heated water. It is getting closer to warmer weather. Plus agin what breed line of birds are you breeding.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Unlikely odds that the ALL the parents are lousy sitters and allow all the babies to die. I mistakenly bred in the first winter I had birds and only lost one to freezing when a **** scared mom off nest. Every single other baby survived the cold that was cold enough to freeze water. Im sceptical that it is that. Now if it was only one pair of birds over and over I would tend to agree, but 3 or 4 sets of different parents all parenting badly, I dont buy it. I put my money on illness. Also way to coincidental dying at the same age. Just my opinion but hey I could be wrong.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

CBL said:


> Unlikely odds that the ALL the parents are lousy sitters and allow all the babies to die. I mistakenly bred in the first winter I had birds and only lost one to freezing when a **** scared mom off nest. Every single other baby survived the cold that was cold enough to freeze water. Im sceptical that it is that. Now if it was only one pair of birds over and over I would tend to agree, but 3 or 4 sets of different parents all parenting badly, I dont buy it. I put my money on illness. Also way to coincidental dying at the same age. Just my opinion but hey I could be wrong.


They can be the best to sit there young BUT extreme cold And young to big to cover well They freeze. That simple. But can be something. Any way they are dead. Need info. What breed. how cold. Is water freezing. On and on


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

re lee said:


> They can be the best to sit there young BUT extreme cold And young to big to cover well They freeze. That simple. But can be something. Any way they are dead. Need info. What breed. how cold. Is water freezing. On and on


That is something I did not know. You would think that the two bubs body heat and sitting beside parents or with parents would be enough, pity. I dont discount it, I dont know enough about that as I dont breed in winter at all.

The first winter I did I had a heated loft. I just dont think its safe enough.


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

doveman2 said:


> last year i was only able to raise 3 young birds out of 12 hatching. this year i hatched 6 and all 6 have died they die around 15-20 days old. my coop is clean,dry no rodents ect. all of the parents are in good shape. the babies all had food in their crop and in the morning they are dead i have never had a sick loft in 45 years of having birds. any help would be helpful.


I have been watching this thread from my work computer. We were closed since last Wednesday due to a snow storm. It has been cold this year here. Long strings of single and negative digits. I spent a lot of time in my loft this weekend checking over all my young and thinking on your post. 
I have banded 19 out of twenty babies about to ween. lost #20 early on, I think he was stepped on by the parents accidentally or the cold got him. You stated your 1st year was not that great and your second is better but still not that great. If there are not any health issues and your setup is correct could it be possible your breeders are, well, just not good breeders/parents? If you are doing everything right, and you can find no other reason for the losses, the parents might be the problem and your situation may never improve. Jim


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