# Day one squab - what to feed if no pet-products are available???



## Helen&Moga (Mar 10, 2012)

Dear people, I have posted the same thing under general discussions, but now we seem to be running out of time, so I am reposting it here in hope more people will happen to read this:

...the parents still havent come back, but it seems the little fellow in the egg is alive and is attemping to hatch - as a line of cracks have appeared on the upside. We are really thinking now of transferring the egg inside into a box with warm water bottles and a towel. I have been reading on what to feed a baby pigeon, I am worried that it won't be possible to find any of these ready-made pet products as it is India. Well, I could get probiotic yoghurt for the first feed as Helen suggests and also prepare the rehydrating solution. Will the new born die if it doesnt find these enzymes in his food? Is there anything to substitute that? And please explain me - how do the new borns consume that pigeon milk? Do we have to use the syringe method if we feed him from day one or can we try the bottle method, where he enters his beak into a baby's bottle? I am really worried that the little fellow will die if we feed him wrong, or that we will block his airways inserting a syringe wrongly... But letting him hatch in a box and watching him die outside our window is not on as well... please give us advise, any. Thanks!

Lots of love
helen and Kunal


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Helen&Moga said:


> Dear people, I have posted the same thing under general discussions, but now we seem to be running out of time, so I am reposting it here in hope more people will happen to read this:
> 
> ...the parents still havent come back, but it seems the little fellow in the egg is alive and is attemping to hatch - as a line of cracks have appeared on the upside. We are really thinking now of transferring the egg inside into a box with warm water bottles and a towel. I have been reading on what to feed a baby pigeon, I am worried that it won't be possible to find any of these ready-made pet products as it is India. Well, I could get probiotic yoghurt for the first feed as Helen suggests and also prepare the rehydrating solution. Will the new born die if it doesnt find these enzymes in his food? Is there anything to substitute that? And please explain me - how do the new borns consume that pigeon milk? Do we have to use the syringe method if we feed him from day one or can we try the bottle method, where he enters his beak into a baby's bottle? I am really worried that the little fellow will die if we feed him wrong, or that we will block his airways inserting a syringe wrongly... But letting him hatch in a box and watching him die outside our window is not on as well... please give us advise, any. Thanks!
> 
> ...


 Maybe some rehabbers will soon come on and offer their advice. I personally would never attempt to feed a pigeon right out of the egg. I just could not bring my self to do it. My fear is that I would end up torturing both of us, and then in the end the bird dies anyway. Maybe someone experienced in this could offer you hope, but we are not talking about a simple or easy process. 
You might consider allowing nature to follow due course and do not intervene.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I've raised quite a few from day 1. Most famously is my 'bucket babies'....
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/omg-bucket-babies-46970.html?highlight=bucket+babies
I use the 'bottle method', even when their tiny. It's much safer, they do the work so there's less chance of them aspirating. Just make the hole in the nipple smaller...just enough to slide their beak into.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/i...6756.html?highlight=bottle+feeding#post615941
I'm trying to find the recipe for substitute formula for you.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Here's the recipe for Mac Milk...


MacMilk©: Crop Milk Replacer Recipe


1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food
1 raw egg yolk (16.6 grams)
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)
1/4 teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)
0.62 g calcium carbonate
2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)
1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)
2 drops fish body (omega-3; not cod liver) oil
1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)
25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)


Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Keep the diet in the fridge, taking out and warming only as much as you need for one feeding.

NOTES
For birds 1-3 days post-hatch: 
It may be necessary to dilute the mix a little more, particularly if they are not being kept at high humidity. It’s essential to add a small amount of feces from a healthy adult conspecific; the younger the bird, the more urgent this is. Add it to two feedings per day. As soon as it’s added, consider the food contaminated; discard any leftovers and clean all implements thoroughly. No digestive enzymes need be added to this mix.

In nature, young columbids are fed small amounts often, by their parents. The ‘nursing’ bouts are long in duration. They should NOT be tube-fed, but instead need to ‘work’ for their food by sucking. The process is very reminiscent of mammals suckling, and their chances of survival are much higher if they are fed in this natural manner.

At the end of the first week post-hatch, gradually add a highly digestible grain (be sure that it contains the proper amount of calcium and vitamins) to the food. It must be fully hydrated! E.g., if you’re adding baby cereal or Exact, make a ‘cereal soup’ with water (at least 2 parts water to 1 part cereal/Exact by weight) before adding it to the MMM. Add only a very small amount for the first couple of days, and then at a rate (e.g., 10% per day) that will make the food mostly grain by the end of 15-20 days. Fledglings must be supplemented with hand feedings for as long as they beg (this can be up to 6 weeks or so), even if they are also eating on their own. Weigh them regularly until they’re completely weaned. A high-quality (companion/exotic) finch seed mix is a good choice for self-feeding. Be sure that they have ‘pigeon grit’ (a multimineral grit) and oystershell grit available ad lib.


Vitamins: Vitamin E, as purchased, is too potent for what is required in this diet. Mix one drop of vitamin E (from a 400 IU/ capsule) with 10 drops of corn oil. Shake or stir well. Then, use 1 drop of the diluted vitamin E in the recipe. The remainder can be kept in an airtight container and stored in a cool, dark place. It can be used over the next few days.* Because vitamin E degrades, it will have to be mixed fresh after a few days, so don't make too much at once. The amount of B complex required is too small to weigh on a gram scale. The amount required for this recipe is a pinch the size of one or two sesame seeds.


Astrid MacLeod and Janine Perlman, 2004©.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

something simple I have read if you need something quick is to hard boil a chicken egg and take out the yolk and smash it up ..add tempid water to make a porridge and feed that till the crop is full like a little bean bag..not over full or tight.. feed again when that goes down. the baby needs to be at 95 degress F to digest the food.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> something simple I have read if you need something quick is to hard boil a chicken egg and take out the yolk and smash it up ..add tempid water to make a porridge and feed that till the crop is full like a little bean bag..not over full or tight.. feed again when that goes down. the baby needs to be at 95 degress F to digest the food.



The guy that posted this said to use the egg white, not the yolk.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> The guy that posted this said to use the egg white, not the yolk.


no he said the yolk.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I posted this in your other thread so I'll add it here.

Here is a video of one of our members feeding their baby pigeon with a large dropper.

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/v...s/07b54d50.mp4
You can do the same thing with a larger syringe, with the end cut off, and covered with a balloon, or vet wrap or self sticking tape that sticks to itself. You would cut a small X in the middle to insert his beak. A small baby bottle can be used this way also, but I prefer the syringe, as you don't have to use as much food to fill it, as I like to start with fresh food each time, and discard any mixed but not eaten.
I have raised babies a couple of days old by feeding with an eye dropper. Some tube feed, but better not to do this with one so small especially if the person is not experienced. It could be dangerous.

Only feed enough to 3/4 fill his tiny crop, which is a small area on the front of his chest which will fill with food. It should feel like a soft squishy pillow when he has had enough. It shouldn't feel hard and packed.
If you can find baby cereal that you mix with water, like rice cereal, that would be okay. You want to make it very thin to start with. To this you could add a bit of yogurt.

The food should be warm but not hot. You can keep it hot once mixed by putting it in a small container and sitting this into a larger one with warm water.

The baby has to be kept very warm, or he won't be able to digest the food in his crop, and it will just sit in the crop and go bad. A heating pad set on low, covered with a layer of towel, and sit the baby on this, is what many do. Then cover the whole thing like a tent to keep in the warmth. But he must be kept warm. I did this by keeping them in an aquarium with a reptile heater over it that kept it warm. You would wait til the crop empties and then feed him again. Usually every couple or every few hours. Don't feed again til the crop empties as you are just adding new food to old. Not good.

You need to bring him inside if the parents are not back and place him in a box of some sort on a towel or similar. Keep him warm.
__________________


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> no he said the yolk.




Here is the thread I think you are talking about. And he said that it was the white he used.

re lee re lee is offline
Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 3,453*
NO it is the EGG WHITE ONLY> do not use the yolk discard it.*. Then add just say a teaspoon of water. Smash the egg white down It will make a milky substance And When in the crop. It will Look just about like any crop milk . If the milk is to thick add another teaspoon. . Any extra can be stored in the ref, And reheated. Be sure to not get it to HOT.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/urgent-dosing-hen-that-is-on-chick-59886-2.html#post651563


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the yolk has all the nutrition, that is what feeds the growing embryo, the white has little value so that just does not make sense to me. but I guess it is better than nothing. egg food is made from all of the egg for breeding birds..so not sure why he would throw the best part out.


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## Helen&Moga (Mar 10, 2012)

First of all: To all of you - very big heartfelt thanks! I have no idea if we will be successful in this mission but I will try my very best and dont mind a couple of sleepless nights. We have roamed the Indian markets today, including 4 so-called petshops - which was absolutely useless! The only stuff they sell is fish-tank-food and seeds for grown birds, the guy just wouldnt understand when i tried to explain him that a baby bird can't have that. Baby food (for humans this time  is as well not available in glasses (therefore so far no chicken-baby-food). There is a baby-cereal powder, one wheat based and one rice-based, but both contain skimmed milk powder, so we didnt buy it yet, as I had read milk is bad for the birds. I found one thing which is called Protinex and just for the time being got that home in case i wouldnt have had an alternative... I had read that the best diet has 25% protein, 12% fat, not much carbohydrates and other vitamins and supplements. So I will quickly list what this contains and if any of you happens to read this you can let me know if you think this is usable (if mixed with water and some oil): it's a dry powder to be mixed with water and contains in 100g:
Protein 32,0g
Carbohydrates 54g
Fat 0.5 g
Vitamin A 1599 mcg
Vitamin D 8.32 mcg
Vitamin E 11.4 mg
Vitamin K 0.4 mg
Vitamin C 83 mg
Vitamin B1 3.3 mg
Vitamin B2 4.6 mg
Niacinamide 50 mg
Pantothenic Acid 3.3 mg
Vitamin B6 1.7 mg
Folic Acid 167 mcg
Vitamin B12 1.7 mcg
Biotin 33 mcg
Ferrous Gluconate 57 mg
Tribasic Calcium Phosphate 1333 mg
Choline Bitartate 500 mg

What do you say - could I add 30g of this into the crop milk recipe until i ve got all the vitamin supplements? Anyways, before I get all to excited about feeding the little one I have to admit, since the first cracks of the shell in the morning he hasn't done anything else. We have placed the egg into a box with several warm water bottles and a fleece blanket. When I refill the bottles I hold the egg in my hand and (at least I imagine very vividly) I can feel him being alive inside. I have seen both of the adult birds around, but they have absolutely ignored the egg and the old nest. Now we have a new strategy: We have set up a really nice box for them and in case they return to build a new nest we can still try to put him back with them... lets see, in the mean time we keep him warm, go hunting for impossible food items in Bombay and for the first time really learn to love the "flying rats" of Bombay. Lets hope he will hatch and that we suceed in feeding him. Oh yes, another question: As I have understood by now it is crucial to the baby that in the first three days we mix faeces to his food for the enzymes... now you can imagine - finding healthy pigeon faeces is sort of an impossible task... our idea: put lots of food stuff on the balcony to attract grown pigeons who then will eat ... and ****. Though that makes me think we should have an antibiotics handy to keep him from getting sick immediately.... So, thanks a lot and goodnight for today. Lets see what the night brings. I hope I soon see some progress in the hatching...

All the love
Helen & Kunal


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't add feces to this recipe. It isn't needed, and you are only asking for trouble. You never know what the birds could be carrying. What if the egg contains salmonella?

BTW, when I mentioned baby cereal, I meant the dry rice cereal. Sometimes you can get it without the milk.

If the parents do rebuild there, you won't be able to just put him back with them, as they wouldn't recognize him as their baby.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> the yolk has all the nutrition, that is what feeds the growing embryo, the white has little value so that just does not make sense to me. but I guess it is better than nothing. egg food is made from all of the egg for breeding birds..so not sure why he would throw the best part out.



I agree with you, and you mentioned it in the other thread also. But he insisted. I don't get it either, but he said it had worked for him.


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## Helen&Moga (Mar 10, 2012)

Dear people,
I have another question. I know I am not supposed to feed him until his crop has emptied. It's his fourth day and in his last meal he had 6ml of crop milk, but now it's already 5.30hours later and the crop is still not empty. Very warm he is. So shall I just keep on waiting? Is it normal that it takes so much time?

Big hugs, helen


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

There are some posts about this on your other thread just in case things get missed


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Helen&Moga said:


> Dear people,
> I have another question. I know I am not supposed to feed him until his crop has emptied. It's his fourth day and in his last meal he had 6ml of crop milk, but now it's already 5.30hours later and the crop is still not empty. Very warm he is. So shall I just keep on waiting? Is it normal that it takes so much time?
> 
> Big hugs, helen


You keep posting the same question on different threads. Keep it all on one thread, or it will just get too confusing. You have received answers on the other post, so please don't add the same to others posts.


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