# Please Help , My pigeon's neck is twisted



## harry005

Hello all,

I am totally new in this. I have recently purchased few pigeons. One of my pigeon is died (not sure about the disease  ). Now one of my pigeon is twisting his neck sometimes but he is able to eat, drink , walk or even run very fast if i try to catch him. The problem i see is , he is just keep twisting his neck also he is not able to fly. What kind of disease is this ?.

I have search for every possible solution in the net but couldnt find any solution thats why i am writing it here.

I believe there is no doctor available in my area. Everyone just gives their own opinion. No one is sure about anything. I just recently looked for the Baytril medicine which is perfectly fine for the pigeons. After so many troubles , I have purchased it (Enrofloxcin salt but its not baytril).Its 50mg tabs. What should i do now?. Can i give my pigeon this medicine ? and how much dosage is preferable ?

If possible please tell me do i have to isolate him. But i believe my pigeons love each others company when i take them outside (fights sometimes in the temporary loft). I still need to isolate him or not ?

I really dont want to lose him. I have already lost one , don't wanna lose another.

For information I live in Patiala(Punjab,India). If it helps , Im posting my pigeons pictures and also medicine which i have bought.

Please I need really quick reply.Any help would be appreciated


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Harry005,

Possible causes that come to mind right off the bat would be:

Possible Injury
PMV Virus
Bacterial Infection that has moved into Central Nervous System

Any sick bird should be isolated from the rest in the loft, that is a fundamental
rule in bird care to prevent exposure as much as possible to the rest of the birds. Also, you need to sanitize the loft once the sick bird is removed.

About the sick bird. It would be helpful if you could post a video of this bird
moving around. Does it ever walk backwards? Is it stargazing? Does it ever do forward or reverse somersaults? Does it do sideways somersaults?

This would be helpful information in evaluating whether to use Enrofloxacin or not.


----------



## feralpigeon

In the isolation enclosure that you make for the sick bird, it is better that it be
large enough for the bird to be comfortable but not big enough for flight. No flight right now.

The water dish should be shallow so that the bird cannot drown itself while in the throws of the CNS (Central Nervous System) symptoms.

Low lighting is helpful. 

If handling the bird, you could tuck a towel (or your choice of clothing covering) in under your chin and let it cover the whole front of you, so that you can launder or toss the covering when through and not have to change your clothes each time.

An inexpensive sanitizer is one gallon of water to 1/2 cup of bleach....it will kill all known bacterial and viral infections pigeons succumb to.

Practice the same due diligence when cleaning the living enclosure, bag all debris and remove from the house.


----------



## harry005

Hey

Thanks for the quick reply. This is first time ever i have bought pigeons and doesn't know much about somersaults. 

No , it doesn't walk backwards. I believe this is star gazing but i will surely shoot a video tomorrow.

I guess its the bacterial infection because i have checked symptoms for PMV which says tossing seeds, walking in circles etc. But i dont see all these problems. I only see is twisting neck. He actually sits perfectly fine but sometimes my pigeons rotates his neck and put his neck downwards(like star gazing).

So now i will isolate my pigeon (cage would be fine ?). I always wash my temporary loft with phenyl https://www.google.co.in/search?q=p...eNuATbr4DICw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=667


----------



## feralpigeon

harry005 said:


> Hey
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply.
> 
> No worries
> 
> This is first time ever i have bought pigeons and doesn't know much about somersaults.
> 
> No , it doesn't walk backwards. I believe this is star gazing but i will surely shoot a video tomorrow.
> 
> I guess its the bacterial infection because i have checked symptoms for PMV which says tossing seeds, walking in circles etc. But i dont see all these problems. I only see is twisting neck. He actually sits perfectly fine but sometimes my pigeons rotates his neck and put his neck downwards(like star gazing).
> 
> Well, there are a range of symptoms and it would be good to fact find before procceeding the sum of what you are seeing. Not every PMV pij tosses seed but there is a large enough percentage of those followed that do and so it becomes a listed symptom. Not having that specific symptom or having yet observed it rules it out.
> 
> Because the bird's fly in an enclosure possible injury may still be on the table.
> 
> I think we are still in a fact collection mode.
> 
> So now i will isolate my pigeon (cage would be fine ?). I always wash my temporary loft with phenyl https://www.google.co.in/search?q=p...eNuATbr4DICw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=667


I can't comment because I don't know and would have to research it. I can say that a board certified (on 2 continents) avian vet who practices locally gave me that tip. I told him I was using Nolvasan and he said it wouldn't touch the pox virus and so my birds weren't fully protected by the sanitizer.

Also, you most likely have an outdoor enclosure that pigeon flies, mosquitos, fleas, blood sucking insects in general, can move in and out of so they need to have some form of _topical_ protection in place:

*bath salts in bathing water are helpful _and or:_

*every two weeks or as product recommendation directs, apply a topical treatment like Sevin Dust, Pyrmethrins, etc.

http://www.kvsupply.com/scalex-for-birds-mite-and-lice-spray. 

*In addition, something like Moxidectin plus, Ivermectin, etc. that will kill any blood sucking insects that get through the first line of defense and bite.


----------



## harry005

Hey thanks,

wow you gave me very much useful information. I am not sure if i can get all these medicine in my area but i'll give it a try else i'll have to look for alternate.

I am not sure about topical protection place?. What exactly is this?

I didnt know about the lice spray, Thanks. If i get it here , i'll buy it asap. but if i spray on my pigeons. It is not harmful for them, right?

How about "Moxidectin plus, Ivermectin"(I'll have to look for it in my area again). Do i have to give them through mouth. what will be the dosage?

and how about enrofloxacin?. I should not have to give them now until we figured what exactly is the problem, right?

Thanks Man, You are absolutely genius.


----------



## harry005

Hello, 

here are two videos of my pigeon.

Please do check one by one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCCH6TnwzR0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiwSgZ4Qt2o&feature=youtu.be

Thanks


----------



## feralpigeon

harry005 said:


> Hey thanks,
> 
> wow you gave me very much useful information. I am not sure if i can get all these medicine in my area but i'll give it a try else i'll have to look for alternate.
> 
> I am not sure about topical protection place?. What exactly is this?
> 
> Topical protection would be the bird's first line of defense against blood sucking insects which carry disease and infect the bird through biting. If you don't have a vaccination program in place, this would be a good thing to put in place
> 
> I didnt know about the lice spray, Thanks. If i get it here , i'll buy it asap. but if i spray on my pigeons. It is not harmful for them, right?
> 
> Either of the topicals I mentioned are considered safe for use in pigeons. There could ensue a debate in a purist's ideals about this though both products are considered within normal safety ranges when applied as instructed. I take an old sock and cut the toe part of it so that I can fit it like a hood over the bird's head and then spray without without getting in the bird's eyes. And you must also remember not to inhale....dust mask or wet bandana would likely do. Remember, all the treatment options available including medicine and vaccines carrry some kind of cautions where treatment is concerned but provide some improved husbandry options for the pigeons.
> 
> How about "Moxidectin plus, Ivermectin"(I'll have to look for it in my area again). Do i have to give them through mouth. what will be the dosage?
> 
> Let's see what you are able to track down first, then post back with info and for dosage info. Both of these are from the Avermectin Family of meds and are considered safe for use in pigeons. Try to get a form that is used for birds and not horses. It will be easier to extrapolate dosage.
> You can read the link below for info on Ivermectin:
> 
> http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html#anthelmintics
> 
> and how about enrofloxacin?. I should not have to give them now until we figured what exactly is the problem, right?
> 
> Yes, that would be best. I watched both videos and have a couple of questions.
> 
> Could you examine the right wing of the bird and look for any lumps on the underside or the upper side. Also, hold the bird with it's back to your chest and outstretch each wing to visually check how the bird retracts each wing. Does one side appear to retract differently than the other?
> 
> Also, how many days have you noticed the neck twisting (torticollis) in the pigeon?
> 
> Did you notice the onset directly after a period of free flying?
> 
> Thanks Man, You are absolutely genius.


Not really! but thank you for taking the time to be observant to help your bird.


----------



## harry005

Hello,

I dont know about vaccination program for the pigeons. I have checked on the internet how to do it but im afraid to do it by myself. It might hurt them if anything goes wrong. Also what injection should i give them?

I have to look for lice spray here in my area. In the mean time, i have asked my friend about lice spray. He said 'Take a cotton and dip it into the Kerosene oil and then slowly put it on the wings of pigeons.' I am not sure about this. So i need your advice.I believe this is Bad idea to do this.

I have noticed twisted neck 4-5 days back. I have bought this pigeon 2 months back. The shopkeeper has already cut down his few wings(it didn't hurt him also I am sure it will grow back as usual).I am unable to figure out any lump on his wings. But last week, one of neighbor has checked my pigeons and he said there is lump on my pigeon (but im unable to figure it out :'( ). But I noticed one thing when i was checking wings , my pigeon was continuously flapping his left wings to get ride of me but didnt flap too much with right wings. I also felt something wrong with right wings. It doesn't feel smooth when i was checking it. Also while walking or running, He never fully enclosed his right wing but he fully closes his left wing (looks amazing). Right wing always look odd.
Please check image


----------



## John_D

Is the lump on a joint? Any lumps on joints in legs?

Is the pigeon still up and walking about, and eating today?


----------



## harry005

Hello John,

I am unable to figure where exactly lump is. But yea he is eating , walking and can run fast enough to outclass me. Please check the video if you can (may b it will help). 

Thanks John


----------



## cwebster

Maybe I'm missing something but the birds head and neck movements don't look that bad to me.


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Harry,

I noticed the wing and how the bird was holding it...that's why I wanted you to look into it further. Typically, we see pictures with a boil or lump on top of the wing over a joint. I have found them on the underside of the wing over a joint as well.

When I saw the torticollis that your bird is showing my first thought was that it was similar to a rescue I had with an Ecoli infection that had gotten into the Central Nervous System and was verified through culture and sensitivity tests with an area DVM. 

All of the PMV cases that I've had have been much more active and fluid so to speak with somersaults and just alot of CNS symptoms. Though, there are mild strains of viruses in general and I want to acknowledge that.

It would be great if you can get a picture of the lump or determine it's location, though I'm leaning more towards it being bacterial than viral at this point.

Regarding your vaccination questions, I wouldn't worry about that right now while you are dealing with your sick bird. I brought it up because if your birds are exposed to blood sucking insects, then a virus can be introduced into your flock through insects. I wouldn't use something flammable on the feathers. Pigeon bath salts would be better all the way around.


----------



## feralpigeon

Harry, can you post a weight on your bird in grams? Also, do you have on hand or can you get a 1cc oral syringe? Thx...


----------



## feralpigeon

Some folks use this for the housing area for their birds to keep the living area free from insects with a non-toxic product:

http://www.richsoil.com/diatomaceous-earth.jsp


----------



## harry005

Hey,

I'll take as many as pictures of right wing then may be you will get an idea. I would purchase bath salts and yes i can get 1cc syringe.


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Harry,

The picture of the Enrofloxacin that you posted, is that 50 or 60 mg. pills?

I need the weight of your bird, that is the only thing I am waiting for right now. Can't get a dose without it! thx


----------



## harry005

Its the 50mg tabs. My pigeon weight is 250gm


----------



## feralpigeon

OK, Harry, here you go...

Take two of your 50 mg. Enrofloxacin pills and crush them into a very fine powder..(you'll have to dust off your mortar and pestle) 

In your one cc syringe, with the powder in a small container, draw up 2 cc's (one after another) of H2O and add to the container with powder.

Next, draw up 3 cc's of either Honey or Karo Syrup (but not both) and add to the container with the medicine and water. So, if working with a 1cc oral syringe, you will draw up 1cc at a time 3 separate times and each time release into the medicine container.

Mix the contents of the container well and store the excess in a container with a lid in the refridgerator when not being used. Refridgeration is important or it will become degraded. You will have to remix just before withdrawing each time.

Also, while drawing up the water and honey or Karo Syrup, don't lose count because the dosing is based on the solution being a 20mg per cc solution.

Now you are ready to draw up the medicine for your bird. Draw up 
.25 on the syringe. If you get to .30, you've drawn up too much.

Burrito your birdie to make your life easier i.e. wrap in a hand towel to immobilize temporarily. Now open pijie's beak and slide the syringe into the throat (using the side of throat as a 'guide') on the side closest to you. Once you are about half an inch beyond the glottis (the air hole at the base of the tongue) you may slowly release the medicine into the bird's throat. Note: it should slide easily...Don't force.

Dose 2x daily (every 12 hours) for 14 days. Let us know how the bird is doing and check the lumps for sizing during the treatments. Keep the bird in a quiet, low light area for the duration.

Also, add 1 1/2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar to a gallon of water and fill the water bowl from this through out the course of treatment. Refrigerate also.

PS- If you plan to take a 1cc syringe with a needle and break it off to 'fill in' as an oral syringe....make sure to sand the tip until it is smooth to the feel so that it can't hurt the pij.


----------



## harry005

Hye..

Thanks man but i really want to know how did you calculate dosage according to weight?

Also you said 2cc so i'll have to fill syringe two times,right?

I'll get everything ready today. Will keep you updated

Thanks Man, I really appreciated your help


----------



## feralpigeon

harry005 said:


> Hye..
> 
> Thanks man but i really want to know how did you calculate dosage according to weight
> 
> I used the 20 mg per kg dose rate from formulary as you have more than just an intestinal infection. Then I gave you instructions for compounding a 20mg per one cc strength solution.
> Because you told me that your bird is 250grams, I instructed you to draw up .25 (and no more!!!) as the dosage which reflects the weight of your bird. If your bird (with this particular strength solution) were 470 grams I would have told you to draw up .47cc.
> 
> 
> Also you said 2cc so i'll have to fill syringe two times,right?
> 
> Please re-read the instructions several times before you proceed. The preparation of the medicine is what tells us how many mg's per cc
> of medicine is available.
> 
> The weight of the bird tells us how much to draw up. You will draw up for purposes of dosing .25 or 1/4 of the 1cc syringe.
> 
> I'll get everything ready today. Will keep you updated
> 
> Thanks Man, I really appreciated your help


No worries, good luck.


----------



## harry005

Hello ,

how you doing. . 


I am giving my pigeon medicine and its been more than 10 days but i dont see any improvement instead i see my pigeon is now sometimes turning in circles and walks backwards. What exactly is the problem?

I am soo worried


----------



## feralpigeon

I'm not sure, so I need to ask some questions. In the meantime since the bird has been on the med for ten days, discontinue Enrofloxacin. Of course, you will need to keep a close eye on the bird. Do the symptoms stay the same, or do you see improvement?

Please explain to me how you mixed the medicine in detail and then how much
you drew up in the syringe when you dosed and how many times a day did
you dose?

Continue to keep the bird isolated and in a low light room/setting. Make sure the bird is adequately self-feeding and watering.

You might also take a weight on your bird so that we can compare how much
if any the bird has gained or lost.


----------



## harry005

Not really , I dont see any improvement. But now i see sometimes he turning in circles and walk backwards. 
I mixed the medicine as you described. 2 crushed tabs of 50mg. Then 2 cc of water and 3 cc of honey. I gave him(0.25ml) two times in a day. At 7am and at 7pm. Pigeon is eating by itself. 

Well i'll weight pigeon.

Thanks


----------



## feralpigeon

harry005 said:


> Not really , I dont see any improvement.
> 
> A misunderstanding in communication, Harry. I was asking for feedback on the symptoms after you discontinue the medication.
> 
> But now i see sometimes he turning in circles and walk backwards.
> I mixed the medicine as you described. 2 crushed tabs of 50mg. Then 2 cc of water and 3 cc of honey. I gave him(0.25ml) two times in a day. At 7am and at 7pm. Pigeon is eating by itself.
> 
> Well i'll weight pigeon.
> 
> Thanks


Some possibilities:

*The medicine didn't get reduced by 5cc's of combo honey/water and therefore the bird received too high a dosage. It's easier to make that kind of mistake if mind wanders, but not so easy with only 5cc's being added.

*The bird has a bacterial infection that is resistant to Enrofloxacin, so while a good broad spectrum medicine and used with much success, it won't help
your situation and exacerbated already present cns symptoms.

*The bird doesn't have a bacterial infection and the condition is instead viral
which means the virus needs to run it's course. Regardless of the reason for the cns symptoms, remember to keep this bird separated from any others you own and only fill the water bowl by a quarter to third of an inch...don't want the bird to have an episode while drinking and drown.

This last scenario is odd in that your friend specifically said that your bird had a lump on its wing. Your bird also had the drooping wing. But you couldn't find the lump, so maybe your bird...in the beginning of the cns symptoms had a flying accident?

Without lab work, we are relying on visible symptoms and trying to rule things out. That's why your observations over the next few days are important. The symptoms you describe are common cns symptoms but we need to know more information to figure out why your bird is displaying them.


----------



## harry005

Ohh sorry for my misunderstanding, I didnt discontinue the medication. I was going for 14 days. Should i discontinue now ?


I believe on that fact you said that Virus might be resistant to enrofloxcin. But how long CNS virus will run its course. Any Idea?

I have been keep an eye on him. But i didn't see any worse things. I just see turning in circles and walk backwards. He still runs very fast to outclass me (I really like that). He eats by himself.


Also I want to ask one more thing. I have been noticing sometimes watery dropping in my loft from beginning. Is that a bad thing or just random?

I was ignoring this thing thought it is normal. But now i dont think its normal. Right?


----------



## feralpigeon

harry005 said:


> Ohh sorry for my misunderstanding, I didnt discontinue the medication. I was going for 14 days. Should i discontinue now ?Discontinue the medicine because you are saying that symptoms are not improving-but instead getting worse
> 
> 
> I believe on that fact you said that Virus might be resistant to enrofloxcin.No, this isn't what I said, it sounds like you merged a couple of possibilities. I was giving you the possibilities that I could think of that would explain your bird's situation. This was one of the possibilities:
> The bird has a bacterial infection that is resistant to Enrofloxacin, so while a good broad spectrum medicine and used with much success, it won't help
> your situation and exacerbated already present cns symptoms
> 
> But how long CNS virus will run its course. Any Idea?
> 
> Again, I am not telling you this is what your bird has. Also, the term is CNS symptoms (not CNS Virus) as CNS symtoms can occur for many reasons, viral or bacterial are only two conditions that might cause CNS symptoms. I would like you to observe your bird closely for a few days and let us know if you see any improvement in your birds symptoms (as you have described them today ).
> 
> I have been keep an eye on him. But i didn't see any worse things.
> Yes, I gathered this from what you said in your previous post. I want to know how the symptom are 3 days days from today ( no more medicine as of today.)
> I just see turning in circles and walk backwards. He still runs very fast to outclass me (I really like that). He eats by himself.
> 
> 
> Also I want to ask one more thing. I have been noticing sometimes watery dropping in my loft from beginning. Is that a bad thing or just random?
> 
> I was ignoring this thing thought it is normal. But now i dont think its normal. Right?


Pictures please. It depends, I don't know the timeline. Also, I thought this bird was being isolated but now you are saying it is in the loft  Please explain this, I'm confused.


----------



## harry005

Sick bird is isolated.


About watery dropping i'm not talking about sick pigeon. I am talking about all other pigeons i have. I believe sometimes they do watery dropping (i am not sure which one do). Yes i will post pictures later when i see watery droppings again.

Thanks for giving me soo much useful information. I highly appreciate that.


----------



## feralpigeon

Cool. When hens are present, + periodically. No worries, Harry.


----------



## harry005

Thank you soo much. One last question How to check which one is hen and which is cock ? 

Because if i want to buy new ones then i dont want to buy both hens or cocks.


----------



## feralpigeon

harry005 said:


> Thank you soo much. One last question How to check which one is hen and which is cock ?
> 
> Because if i want to buy new ones then i dont want to buy both hens or cocks.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=76624

Check out Martha's head (picture file is at bottom of above link)...sooo henny. The distinctive flat top, no prominent
'forehead' or beginning to top of head. The cock birds tend to have a very bulbous top to forehead/beginning of top of head which then slopes backwards. This is a pretty good visual check. Both vocalize though cock bird is more assertive in this and other behavior that both may due. I do currently have a rescue that breaks the 'physical' clues, she is the exception to the rule and if you ever get 3-4 eggs you will know for certain as I found out. She has, in the meantime, fooled everyone.


----------

