# what color would i get from mating these two



## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

http://db.tt/mGKXtCBW

http://db.tt/P75xBUqo


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## thepigeonguy (Aug 23, 2012)

usually male is dominant in genetics youll probably get mostly the males genetics


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

So I'll get silver tails then with the recessive red


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## Pigeonfan94 (Feb 15, 2010)

I'm not an expert in genetics, but I would say all offspring would be grizzled since that white bird is homozygous grizzle. Any experts feel free to chime in.


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

Really I want grizzles I love them I'm not a fan of solid colors that would be sweet


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I have a couple questions before speculating on color of progeny.
-Does the white bird have colored feathers anywhere other than tail?
-Does the white bird have black or colored eyes?
-Which bird is male, which is female?


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

Her body is pure white only tail with black on tip however one tail feather is fully black the male is the red and on his chest you can see some specs of white


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I think that your white bird is black homozygous grizzle and maybe pied, (black eyes are a good indicator of pied) and the cock is ash red. So, if the ash cock is heterozygous ash then about half of the young should be ash red grizzle and the other half could be blue or black grizzle. If the ash cock is homozygous ash then all youngsters will be ash and if he carries dilute then some of his daughters will be ash yellow, all heterozygous grizzle if the hen is indeed ****. grizzle. If the hen possesses pied genes then solid white (non grizzle) patches may appear randomly on the offspring.
These are the most probable possibilities. 
Mate them, hatch a few, and post pics of youngsters when weaned, for further analysis.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

After taking another look at the ash red bird I concluded that he is heterozygous ash, therefore some of the young will be blue or black. Also, the white feathers in his neck appear to be pied factor so you will likely get some pied babies as well.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

tmass and pigeonfan are correct.

You'll get ash red spread grizzles and ash red spread pieds.
If shes hetrozygous spread you will breed non-spread too.
you may also get blue and black grizzles and blue or black pieds (if he carries blue).

The white hen has a blue base colour and one or two genes for spread (blue + spread = black) she is most likely homozygous grizzle (thats why she's so white). She could be pied.

The ash red cock looks pied and could be hetrozygous blue, I cant see if he's het blue from that pic. He may be het grizzle too.
Can you see black flecking to indicate he's carrying blue?
Like tmass said you wont get any blues if he is homozygous red, all their babies will be ash red just like you wont breed any non-spread if she is **** spread. 

Ash red and spread doesn't look like recessive red/self red. Its sometimes called lavender or strawberry depending on the pattern. Spread makes the ash red more silver/grey in colour.

Anyway you will find out what each bird is carrying when you breed them. If you only get ash red spread grizzles you know he is **** ash red and she is **** spread.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

thepigeonkey, the reason why I think he's hetero ash is because it appears that he has some blue/black on a left flight feather.


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

Now I'm excited as soon as they have babies I'll post pics thanks guys love this place


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Kaipayton, does he have any black flecking? I can't see it in the pic.


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

No he doesn't


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

http://db.tt/UboRryfa



http://db.tt/xetGTBhJ

Here's two more pics of him


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

i think most of the answers were concerned on the ash red cock but, for me the hen is more interesting. this (white) with some tail affect is looks like tail-mark but it is called (flash).. (all-white except tail) tail-mark is a single-gene effect


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

kaipayton, if it isn't too much trouble and if your interested in knowing whether the cock is hetero or **** ash, it would be nice to see a pic of his wing flights with extended wing and a pic of his tail from front view. As I stated earlier, I think I see a dark spot on a left wing flight, and possibly some in his tail on a latter pic. Thanks


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi tmaas does this help
http://db.tt/FYDD8031

http://db.tt/AL0JCgl9


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Yes, it helped a little, the dark spot that I see in the very first pic on his second or third flight feather is not visible in latter pic because of the angle of the feather but a tail feather reveals flecking in these latter pics. He's hetero ash red so you'll likely get some blue/blacks from the mating.
The youngsters will definitely be interestingly colored considering the genetic possibilities of the hen. Definitely try to post pics of them.


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

Most definitely will,I have another mating question for you I have a pair on egg now I'll take better pics tomorrow and post but it's a black tail fan mated with a saddle slash red and white hen what's your views on babies here's a pic of them for now to contemplate until tomorrow 
http://db.tt/x1fPB0SY. Not the best of pics


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

kaipayton said:


> Hi tmaas does this help
> http://db.tt/FYDD8031
> 
> http://db.tt/AL0JCgl9


Hi Kaipayton I have felt that the cock is not ash red or recessive red but infact is an INDIGO if he was ash red the tail and the flight feathers would be ash , and they are not. He also is not recessive red as he would have a red tail. The You must understand that when we speak of INDIGO and GRIZZLE we are talking of genes that change or hide color. Both these genes are partial dominant that one can over ride the other.I would not rule out the recessive red all togther as it is a recessive gene and the partial dominant Indigo can hide it. I have just raised a bird out of a pair where the cock is Indigo and the hen is Recessive he looks like a indigo and he may be carring the recessive red gene. I will find out when he is old enough to mate.. GEORGE


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I still don't see blue flecking,... time will tell.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

george simon said:


> Hi Kaipayton I have felt that the cock is not ash red or recessive red but infact is an INDIGO if he was ash red the tail and the flight feathers would be ash , and they are not. He also is not recessive red as he would have a red tail. The You must understand that when we speak of INDIGO and GRIZZLE we are talking of genes that change or hide color. Both these genes are partial dominant that one can over ride the other.I would not rule out the recessive red all togther as it is a recessive gene and the partial dominant Indigo can hide it. I have just raised a bird out of a pair where the cock is Indigo and the hen is Recessive he looks like a indigo and he may be carring the recessive red gene. I will find out when he is old enough to mate.. GEORGE


In the very first pic posted of him I think that the underside of his tail feathers exhibit an ash tail band, howbeit very slight, so i suspected that the spread gene is minimizing its expression. I also considered **** indigo blue but concluded that his head was too "red", however, indigo ash red may be accurate. It would explain the smeary flecks, minimal flecks, light colored beak, and faint ash tail band. The flecks may even be results of indigo rather than het ash. 
If the bird was rec red I don't think that he would have any flecking, even with indigo, but I may be wrong.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

thepigeonkey said:


> I still don't see blue flecking,... time will tell.


They're evident if you look closely at his second flight feather from the tip of his wing (dark patch in center of feather) on very first pic and his left tail feathers on the first pic of the third set of pics, (upper right corner of pic).


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

George Simon 'INDIGO and GRIZZLE we are talking of genes that change or hide color. Both these genes are partial dominant that one can over ride the other.'

I thought grizzle and indigo would be co-dominant with eachother. 
Grizzle and indigo are partial dominant genes because of how they work on wild type (bluebar)
I'm not so sure about indigo, his tail feathers may be white because of grizzle.

He could carry blue. I can't see any flecking though. A close up of black flecks on the cock bird would help. He could carry brown I saw a brown looking fleck at the base of the tail but I don't think we'll know without a better pic or when we see the babies.

Also the hen looks like non-spread. That tail feather looks blue with black tailbar - what you think tmass? 
Someone said flash earlier, I know flash is common in fantails but I wouldn't think flash because the tailmark is so thin and the coloured feather has no flash mark but I don't know much about flash, it could be flash, grizzle and pied.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Thepigeonkey, I can't see the dark tail feather well enough to distinguish a tail bar but thought the lacing on tail looked typical of spread blue **** grizzle.
Also, I don't know anything about "flash".


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

My two cents is that the bird is homozygous ash red as none of the flecks seem to look like flecks when the pics are close up, I wonder if its the lighting of the camera.

The hen does look non spread judging by her tail bar, It is clearly darker at the tip. Tmass do you mean typical spread blue homozygous grizzle?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Yes Evan, I meant spread blue **** grizzle.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

tmaas said:


> Yes Evan, I meant spread blue **** grizzle, but I was not viewing the latter pic of her (I missed it). After seeing the better pic of her tail I agree that she is not spread.


I can only see one pic of her, The first one and one of her tail feathers has colour extending half way down, There is a clear difference between the dark tail band and the rest of the tail area that has pigment.

How much selection does it take to get a spread blue **** grizzle to look like storks? I have found my spread blue **** grizzles show a lot more colour than this bird.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I can only see one pic of her, The first one and one of her tail feathers has colour extending half way down, There is a clear difference between the dark tail band and the rest of the tail area that has pigment.
> 
> How much selection does it take to get a spread blue **** grizzle to look like storks? I have found my spread blue **** grizzles show a lot more colour than this bird.


As you know, Evan, there are many different types of grizzle and many modifiers to altar their expression, so selection alone won't always obtain the desired objective, the genes need to be present.
I think this bird has pied and/or tail mark (maybe "flash") effecting it's color as well.

When I was a kid I had a dark tort feral pigeon cock bird that I bred from who, when mated to blue t-check hens (two different ones) produced a high percentage of youngsters which were white with tail color similar to this bird, dark tips on their flights and a few dark feathers in their neck after first molt. They were dead ringers fore **** grizzle but the only other cock birds in the loft were a blue bar and an ash red check. Mysteries abound!


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Post #20 is a different pair. I don't think either the white hen in the first pic or the white cock in the post #20 pic are black (blue and spread)


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

thepigeonkey said:


> Post #20 is a different pair. I don't think either the white hen in the first pic or the white cock in the post #20 pic are black (blue and spread)


Your right, post #20 is a different bird. I deleted the incorrect info.


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

Hey guys they finally laid but only one hatched but I got a bluebar from them can anyone explain


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Your ash red parent is het. ash and het. check (split for bar). 
Your tailmark parent is likely possessing rec. piebald genes.
One or both parents are, or carry, smokey and dirty because the youngster appears to be both.


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## Pigeonfan94 (Feb 15, 2010)

Very nice&#55357;&#56396;


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## kaipayton (Sep 30, 2012)

Will I always get blue from them


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

No, about half of the young should be ash red.


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