# What else causes 'yellow' Urates?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...




What else beside Canker is known to cause 'yellow' Urates?


Does anything come to mind that you may know of?



I am wondering if the yellow Urates I am seeing are possibly not from a Canker problem at all, but could be from some other illness or condition...and so wanted to pick your brains and memorys.


Thanks everyone!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

pdpbison said:


> What else beside Canker is known to cause 'yellow' Urates? Phil Las Vegas


Liver problems. 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Liver problems.
> 
> Terry




Hi Terry, 


Lol...

I know THAT...!


I mean what illnesses which have names, syndromes, additional symptoms to co-relate...


Maybe the 'yellow' Urates I am seeing here are not from Canker, and that is some of 'why' the Metronidazole is not working well...

Just trying to think...


Hard with this tired brain...


Thanks!


Love,

Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well one last thought before bed...


I have probably been seriously over-dosing various of my ''squeakers" and others with 'Metronidazole' for a month now, and some less.

I had a seeming Canker issue going on here prior TO whatever else got going.

I was never able to resolve it.

I have seen this before, where yellow clining material in throats did NOT clear up with Metronidazole, and always this was attended with yellow Urates...or if it did clear up, it was with high doses and very slow to clear...if for that matter, the Metronidazole had anyitng whatever to do with it clearing up or not by that point.

I have lamented many times now how 'Berimax' WOULD cdlear these up, but of course those with a socalled 'medical background' juswt poo-poo it.


What I have been trying to clear up, is yellow Urates with or without anything much for poops...and no matter seen in MOST Throats, while it is or was seen in 'some'.


I feel very badly, for one of the Squeakers in particular, who is so dear and frail, who today as most days got two 60 Miligram Tablets, with me TRYING so damned hard to get his Canker to clear up, and now I think I may have ruined him by doing this...and ruined others previously who died.

I have been asking in all these different ways for a Month or more now.

Yes, I can "look this up at the end of the formulary too" where all the answers are, appearently. But for anyhting real or practical or able to be understood.


For now, I look forward to whatever I can manage for the outcome with these present Birds...and with a lot less than feeling happy about the quality of information this forum has so often become synonomous with.


And if anyone knows anything about what overdosing with Metronidazole does to them, please be kind enough to tell me. So I can have a better idea of the harm I have done them.


I just wasted another hour I do not have to spare in 'googles' trying to find something and to no avail.

So please do not tell me to, you know, "Look it up myself".

I do not have anything accessable TO look it up in.


I do not have a "FORMULAY" handy right now, and the ones I could find on line were useless.



Thanks,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have seen yellow urates in quite a few birds which did not have canker. Some of them were not sick at all, at least they didn't show any symptoms.
Others were sick and had yellow urates, my vet wasn't able to make a diagnosis.
I guess a viral hepatitis would do that.
I had three pigeons and a dove brought to me all from the same flock who looked very sick. They weren't eating or drinking and were emaciated.
I took the first one to my vet and he couldn't find anything. Injectable antibiotic (Fortaz)and Reglan and supportive care saved them. They are all fine now.

Did your vet run a liver function test?
Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sometimes bacterial, viral and fungal infections colonize in the liver and can cause yellow urates/droppings. When the Overpass flock had Avian Poxvirus pass through, there were very specific areas below the roosting areas that had 
very, very yellow urates/droppings.

fp


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,
Looked up overdosing in the PDR. Looks like the primary symptoms are neurological, convulsive siezures and peripheral neuropathy which is numbness of extremities. In the instance of any liver disease the drug will build up in the body as the liver cannot process it fast enough. Other symptoms are poor coordination, difficulty walking. GI symptoms are diarrhea, vomiting, nausea, loss of appetite. Darkened urine is also listed. There is a long list of adverse reactions in multiple body systems. I'm just listing some of them. It says in extended treatment to watch for an overgrowth of candida. If this is adenovirus, then the birds probably aren't able to clear the medication because of impaired liver function and it builds up in their bodies. I am so hoping the lab analysis from the necropsy comes in early this coming week. Until then it is by guess and by golly.
M.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Margarret said:


> Phil,
> Looked up overdosing in the PDR. Looks like the primary symptoms are neurological, convulsive siezures and peripheral neuropathy which is numbness of extremities............
> 
> M.


What would the overdosing pertain to, that is what medication? Metronidazole?

fp


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> What would the overdosing pertain to, that is what medication? Metronidazole?
> 
> fp


Yes, to metronidazole.

M.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Got it!

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> Phil,
> Looked up overdosing in the PDR. Looks like the primary symptoms are neurological, convulsive siezures and peripheral neuropathy which is numbness of extremities. In the instance of any liver disease the drug will build up in the body as the liver cannot process it fast enough. Other symptoms are poor coordination, difficulty walking. GI symptoms are diarrhea, vomiting, nausea, loss of appetite. Darkened urine is also listed. There is a long list of adverse reactions in multiple body systems. I'm just listing some of them. It says in extended treatment to watch for an overgrowth of candida. If this is adenovirus, then the birds probably aren't able to clear the medication because of impaired liver function and it builds up in their bodies. I am so hoping the lab analysis from the necropsy comes in early this coming week. Until then it is by guess and by golly.
> M.



Thanks Margarret, 




Phil
l v


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2007)

Phil,
The reason the Metronadazole didn't clear up the canker in the throat is probably because it wasn't canker. E.coli looks a lot like canker and yellow deposits in the throat are often mistaken for it. Metronadazole doesn't work on e.coli as far as I know. You need an antibiotic that hits aerobic bacteria. This possibility may be why you are seeing yellow urates. The infection may have gone to the liver. For that matter, yeast can often form whitish deposits in the throat.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Phil,
> The reason the Metronadazole didn't clear up the canker in the throat is probably because it wasn't canker. E.coli looks a lot like canker and yellow deposits in the throat are often mistaken for it. Metronadazole doesn't work on e.coli as far as I know. You need an antibiotic that hits aerobic bacteria. This possibility may be why you are seeing yellow urates. The infection may have gone to the liver. For that matter, yeast can often form whitish deposits in the throat.




Thank you pigeonperson...

I never knew that E-coli could appear as yellowish Things in the Throat.


Only some had any yellowish material in their Throats...but their yellowish urates looked similar to those of Birds showing nothing in their Throats.

The only association I had, was 'yellow' Urates occur in conjunction with Canker.


E-coli...


I have had everyone on 'Oxytetricycline' and some on Cipro.


I decided I would discontinue the Metronidazole.


What medicines can you recall or draw on experiences of, for treatine E-Coli?


Thanks!


I really appreaciate your mentioning this to me...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2007)

Phil,
A lot of different illnesses can turn the urates yellow because the liver is impacted including chlamydia so without testing, it's very difficult to know what is really going on. Canker can bypass the throat entirely and set up shop anywhere else in the body including inside the vent. Adenovirus has been mentioned so the problems you're having run the gamut and we don't know what it is yet. It could even be more than one thing going on but Adeono does open the door for killer e.coli infections.
The three most often drugs used by vets to combat aerobic infections are Baytril, Clavamox and Doxycycline. I feel you would be safe with any of them. The only reservation I have is not using them without Nystatin (Medistatin online) because they can all produce secondary yeast infections.
I think the best thing you could do is have the blood and fecals tested if you haven't already done so. A high white cell count could tell you a lot.
Incidentally, e.coli appearing in the mouth and throat appear more brown than yellow.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Phil,
> A lot of different illnesses can turn the urates yellow because the liver is impacted including chlamydia so without testing, it's very difficult to know what is really going on. Canker can bypass the throat entirely and set up shop anywhere else in the body including inside the vent. Adenovirus has been mentioned so the problems you're having run the gamut and we don't know what it is yet. It could even be more than one thing going on but Adeono does open the door for killer e.coli infections.
> The three most often drugs used by vets to combat aerobic infections are Baytril, Clavamox and Doxycycline. I feel you would be safe with any of them. The only reservation I have is not using them without Nystatin (Medistatin online) because they can all produce secondary yeast infections.
> I think the best thing you could do is have the blood and fecals tested if you haven't already done so. A high white cell count could tell you a lot.
> Incidentally, e.coli appearing in the mouth and throat appear more brown than yellow.




Hi pigeonperson, 


Thank you. very much...


I incline not to think 'Chlamydia', if for one thing, for want of any respiratory troubles and no damp or wet nostrils or Ceres...but I know these are not per-se positive indicators or the disease being absent, for their absence.


I initially inclined to suppose a Salmonella or e-coli, and as you know, these are not something one can have readily tested for.

Certainly there are enough things to recommend a Virus, and so far such readings as I have been able to do, have shown no Virus which would seem to fit any mean of symptoms.

No one has been throwing up..and no sudden deaths other than the fastest from onset of conspicuous symptoms, was perhaps three days...and progressive in it's appearant course of decline.

No 'brown' anyting in throats, but some slight stringyness in some Throats far back.

Those who are eating well and pooping well show several variations in poops urates -


Some, pooping clear liquid with 'pea soup' fecal matter in it...

Some, pooping clear liquid with small 'snakes' of brownish green...

Some, poops look like 'Spinach Sour Cream Dip' with either white or yellow Urates swirled in.

Some, pooping decent fecal matter, but with curdled urates of white or yellow.

Some not pooping at all, merely bile and white or yellow water-color-paint...and these I have been tube feeding, and trying to keep hydrated, and their Crops empty very slowly so I can not feed much at a time nor often.

Nystatin ( in this context, clearly, and not in context of your mention) has not appeared to help those or others whose Crops were not emptying, including some few who had been eating well or being fed by their parents well...but whose Crops ceased to empty, and whose body temperature seemed to fall into chill. These I warmed and hydrated and still lost.

These I have so far been loosing.


Various Neurologic symptoms, some resembleing PPMV as I have supposed it to be...or at any rate, sudden jerkyness of walking backwards with momentary 'Star Gazing'..this while eating when a Pea or other large Seed is elected, yet they do not do this if electing a small Seed...or at other times, or at least not often in any other contaxt than electing a 'Pea' in pecking to eat, or drinking.

These Birds also do this if offered Water, they take a tiny sip, then get into 'Star' Gazing and light backward jerky walking...then correct it and try again.

If I steady their Beak, into the Water, they drink fine.

If not, it is like when a Horse raises his head far up and back and shakes it.

Some ( two, one very slight, the other more noticable but not severe by any means) have fine tremors of the Head...but nothing much else as for Nerologic signs for these.


Some few young adults...have been walking or turning in circles at times, or appear to have trouble electing where to go, or how to get there, and will exhibit various indecisions and turnings on the floor or in flight.


Most everyone seems more hungry than usual.

All seem to be of average thirst for the Season.

All Vents clean...some Vent Feathers stained 'green'...


All this may have begun, with my having recieved a Banded Homer, who had lost the use of his Legs.


He was pooping "Spinach Sour Cream Dip" with yellowish Urates.

I suspected a Back Injury, and or some complication of the Kidneys effecting the sciatic Nerves.



I had him in a convelesent Cage for quite a while, propped up in soft cloths, while treating for Canker...and adminstering some anti-inflamitorys.

He had a good appetite and self fed from the beginning...always has a nice firm full Crop, and in every way appears Healthy and fit...but for his Legs being still somewhat weak.

He was always in good spirits, and was and remains a very beautiful, gentle and charming Pigeon...and he is kind to the Squeakers and will nestle next to them.

Gradually, over what eight weeks now? He has through excercise and various things I would encourage him to do, he has gotten to where he can stand and sort of walk right along all the way across the room, if he is flapping lightly to assist in lift.


Now, he has been out of his convelesent Cage for a month I suppose...freely mingling with everyone else who is free rove or free fly. He gets arund well to anywhere he wishes to go, even on to low items to perch up on...and sometimes I have to look twice to decide it is him, he is standing so normally.

He can fly, powerfully it seems, but he elects not to do so, but he excercises on his own a great deal every day in flapping or mild helicopterings. If held a certain way he will flap very powerfully and if let go, launch like a rocket.


His poops then when he was first here, and some others poops now, are about the same 'Spinich sour Cream Dip' sort of thing, with yellowish Urates.

It was not Canker, or at least it never did clear up for good from the Metronidazole I had him on a regimen of...nor had he or others shown any lesions or matter on their Throats.


That is about all I can think of to mention for now, as for what I have been seeing.

I did get Doxicycline in the Mail yesterday or the day before...which is the Powder version for dissolving in Water.



I tried to get liquid "Cipro" today but the only seller on line I knew of was not responding to either telephone number they had listed, and their site said "out of stock"



The "Doxycline 20 %", Powder, for mixing in Water for them to drink...


Would you feel I would do well to begin useing the Doxycycline 20 % in all Drinking Water now? ( I had been useing the Oxytetricycline this last week, with no particular observaitons to make about it doing anything, or way of knowing if it did do anything.) 


Or???


Thank you...



Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Phil, you may not have a formulary but if you had looked at our resources section you would have seen the post "Drug Chart - Drawn up by Nooti" which states:

*METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl, Torgyl, Stormogyl)

Dose 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days. 

In very rare cases, liver damage can be caused by prolonged use over 14 days - but it is very rare and one must balance the risks.
If maintained for 14 days or more it is highly effective against a severe infection of trichomonas gallinae and in preventing an inside recurrence- (not reinfection from an outside source, ie another bird).
Used for anaerobic, (flushing deep wounds), and protozoal infections. Can be given concurrently with Amoxy and Trim Sulphas.*

The resources section should be the first place that you look for information because that contains the best of the information the rest of us have found, that is why we post it there.

Yellow urates are a sign of liver problems and Metronidazole in overdose causes liver damage. I have seldom seen yellow urates where I know there is canker (because it is visible) and would be wary about treating aggressively for canker on so little evidence. 

There are many conditions that can be confused with canker: the white coating that can develop in birds with crop problems, cancerous throat tumours, pox, dried respiratory exudate, fungal lesions and yeast lesions. This is where a microscope can be so useful.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2007)

Phil,

I don't know what you're dealing with. The symptoms can cut across any number of illnesses. For instance, yeast infection can cause stargazing and yet appear to be a PMV. A bird holding itself horizontally usually means it is in pain from the crop and yet a bird holding itself horizontally can also mean weakness.

Metronadizole is used for canker and anaerobic infections and if you didn't see any improvement over the month, I don't know why you continued the treatment. It's worthless for whatever is going on with your birds. If this is a bacterial infection, they are usually aerobic and Metronadizole is not going to work.

I still maintain that you should take one bird with typical symptoms over to a vet for blood and fecal testing. It's the only way to find out what is going on.

Just as an aside, I don't personally like Metronadazole for canker. First of all, canker generally comes with bacterial infection so I like to dose with a drug that hits both aerobic bacteria and canker. Vitaking Products has a drug under their coccidia treatments which I highly respect. It's a 4 in one containing Ronidazol and a sulphur antibiotic. It treats the entire bird, not just for what you may see. It hits e.coli, respiratory, coccidia, skin infections, and other digestive system infections.

Metronazole can cause severe regurgitation and for that reason, Jedds carries it with a coating to prevent throwing up. if used too long, the drug can cause liver damage. I've specifically spoken to vets about the use of Metronadazole in canker cases and they don't like it saying that it can be too weak to hit the stronger organisms plus it won't hit most of the bacterial infections. Additionally, Metronadazole is not water soluble so if you mix it in water, it tends to filter down towards the bottom and the birds aren't going to get the right dose. Metronadazole is good for infections like Clostridium.

Some people believe that Spartrix can cause regurgitation but that's not so. A bird that is dehydrated will throw up anything including the Spartrix so for me, Spartrix or Ronidazole is better to use. One of the best treatments for canker is water soluble Emtryl but it was taken off the market because it was deemed carcinogenic. Lately, I've been seeing it back in pill form. Foys carries it.

Again, you need one bird to be tested for what is going on and until then, I don't think I would throw just any old drug at the birds.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Some additional or supplementary comments that come to mind from
Cynthia's and pigeonperson's comments.

Jedd's has a higher shipping price than the other houses but also gets the
product delivered the quickest of all the houses in my experience. I also
know that Jedd's has, bar none, the fullest line of canker/Trichomonas products available of all the supply houses. Pigeonperson, I don't know when Jedd's started carrying Demetridazole, but they do have it in stock now (another good product through Medpet):

http://www.jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=64&SubCategoryID=538

Also, in terms of the Resource Section that we have here, and really invaluable in terms of the work and material that it represents, there is a link there for IVIS:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19595

The sign up process is quick and painless and there is an unbelievable library 
there. If you type in Therapeutic Agents, you will find the same exact
Formulary that is offered in Clinical Avian Medicine and this is a formulary 
that you won't ever misplace unless your computer itself is not locatable.
Bookmark them and they will always be there when you need them along w/the other resources they make available.


Phil, I hope that in addition to the results for the Necropsy this coming week,
that you can also get your vet to help you w/one of the birds representing
the symptoms that are presenting in your birds.

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> ...Most everyone seems more hungry than usual....
> Phil
> l v


Wow! You really have your hands full with that lot! When I have treated for canker (especially with Metronidazole), there were always a few birds which became RAVENOUS for small seeds a day or two after treatment. My vet's said that the canker treatment can cause interiour canker lesions to die and fall off, leaving open sores which are painful and an inviting place for bacterial infections. Now I watch for that and serve an extra dish of small seeds for several days after treatment which seems to help them past that.

Sure hope you are able to puzzle out this mystery disease!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TerriB said:


> Wow! You really have your hands full with that lot! When I have treated for canker (especially with Metronidazole), there were always a few birds which became RAVENOUS for small seeds a day or two after treatment. My vet's said that the canker treatment can cause interiour canker lesions to die and fall off, leaving open sores which are painful and an inviting place for bacterial infections. Now I watch for that and serve an extra dish of small seeds for several days after treatment which seems to help them past that.
> 
> Sure hope you are able to puzzle out this mystery disease!




Thanks TerryB,


Yes...


And Canker as well as other infections or infestations or Ancesses or Tumers, can sometimes 'eat' or erode or copnsume or attend, not only small 'holes', but an entire Crop or Esophagus or whatever portions of them.


This is not easy to guess of when examing the Bird in one's usual ways.


Phil
l v


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