# color breeding- good homers



## proappspro (Jul 28, 2013)

Ok, so I've read tons and the more I read the more I get confused.

So. . .
When looking at a pigeon you are seeing the result of colors(blue, brown,red) combined with a pattern(blue bar, check, t) With modifiers(spread, grizzle, dilute etc.)- I think I got this.

Question1
when trying to determine what possible phenotype of a mating is possible do we first look at the base color of the cock and hen decide what is dominate, then pattern, then look at the modifiers a determine what is dominate and keep progressing toward the possibilities?

Question2
Am I thinking of this correctlyin this example?

example: I have a Ludo that is black grizzle. I believe this bird is a result of having a blue base color with at least 2 modifiers affecting it which would be spread and grizzle.

Question 3
Where does the pattern fit in this equation? 

I have more that I'm trying to learn but I'll post a pic of the blk grizzle to see if my thinking is correct before I continue.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm commenting here just to keep track of the answers. Great questions - as I too am learning...


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Well, that bird is not spread. If it were, it would be black all over, including the breast and abdomen. It is base color blue, but the blackness is a result of T-pattern or what some might call velvet. It may be grizzle. I can't be sure from the picture. So it is Blue (color), T-pattern (pattern) and may have the modifier grizzle. 

Jim


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## proappspro (Jul 28, 2013)

View attachment 29779
Good that is what I'm trying to learn. So to be spread it would have to effect the entire body. It has a few more bits of white similar to what's by the eye and it comes from a line of grizzlies. 

Question: Would it still be called a black grizzle?

Next question:
Red grizzle is a red base with grizzle. What does it mean if it has nonbars?
I ask becAuse I have white grizzle with bars - het grizzle i think and very white grizzle with with some dark spots- **** grizzle storm?
Can't get stork mark to attach. Ill try again. 
View attachment 29779


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## proappspro (Jul 28, 2013)

Here is the other example stork? Sorry this seems so elementary but I trying to get a grasp on the foundation and I've already learned more about black vs blue T. 

Thanks
JW


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

No bad questions!! You are correct in the fact that you need to look at all of the genes to figure out the possibility (and probability) of getting different phenotypes. This may be easy if you are dealing with only one or two differing genes........more complex as you throw more genes into the equation. The latter is especially true as the different genes and modifiers interact with each other.....sometimes in ways that can be unknown and/or rare. However, when first learning genetics start with the basics. Also know which genes are sex-linked.

So if you have an ash red bar hen and a blue bar cock you know that all baby hens will be blue bar and all baby cocks will be red (split for blue) bar.

Now if in the same pair of birds above the blue bar cock was heterozygous grizzle you know you would get the same colored babies blue bar hens and red (split for blue) bar but abour half of each (both hens and cocks) would be grizzled.

Now lets say the original red bar hen was check (but split for bar) and the cock still blue bar heterozygous grizzle...........You will get blue check grizzled hens, blue bar grizzled bars hens, blue check hens, blue bar hens, red check grizzled cocks, red bar grizzled cocks, red check cocks, red bar cocks. All in statistically even numbers. We are now dealing with only a couple genes and we already have eight different phenotypes possible in the young. 

Add another gene or two to the above mix.......maybe one is spread, or also has dominant opal on top of the base color....or both parents carry recessive white........you can see how quickly the number of different possible outcomes increases. However, this is also part of the fun IMHO! BTW google genetics and Punnett Squares. Punnett Squares make it easy to figure out the (statistical) results of a couple of genes on paper. 

I agree with loonechoo on that dark bird in the photo above being t-pattern. The red grizzle......I am not sure but I think that bird may be t-pattern too (with grizzle). The other bird I am not entirely sure is storked...........looks maybe heavy pied or perhaps pied combined with stork (?). Usually stork mark birds have the black edges on all the outer flights.......that looks like a white bird with some solid dark feathers showing through.

I will add that in most cases you multiply the statistical chance of one genes outcome with another to get the chance (statistically) of the different combinations. For example, if you figure out half your young should be grizzled, and half should be blue, you can multiply 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 of the young should be blue grizzle (statistically). Sometimes other things effect the probability. If both parents carry recessive white.......1/4 of thier young will be white. Some of those whites may be genetically blue grizzle, some blue bar or whatever but the recessive white masks the other colors/patterns.


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## proappspro (Jul 28, 2013)

Great info. How did any hobbiest learn this before the www? 

So how do i identify birds such as the white or the red grizzle so I know good breeding choices? Do I just randomly pair them then see what I get. 

And what would expect if I pairs the red grizzle and the white? They are both cocks but just curious.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

good breeding choices depends on what your goals are............


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

I love the color of this one!
Second pic - Attachment 29779


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## proappspro (Jul 28, 2013)

So the last grizzle posted is not "stork marked" its just a grizzle with very little color?
and the red grizzle is a grizzle has more color?

I also have a grizzle that is very similar to the red grizzle but is on blue not red and has bars.

do the bars mean anything as far as the difference in genetics between the red and the bluebar? out of 6 grizzle it is the only one with bars the others all look like the third pic I posted.


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