# I dont know what to do for these little pigeon'sn



## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

hello
I've found a little street pigeon whose neck is (the only way I can describe) inflated up like a balloon, the sides of it's face are bald where the side's of it's neck are comong up rubbing it's head. It does'nt seem to be bothering it as it eats & sleeps ok, I've had it about three day's and it look's like it's gone down slightly but i'm not sure. Also yesterday when I fed the bird's in the garden one pigeon did'nt fly away and was spinning around in circle's, and flying backwards into things, so I caught it & put it in a cage, but it's head is going everywhere when it's trying to peck at seed and does'nt look like it gets any, also it does'nt mind if I pick it up. If anyone knows what could be wrong with either of them, I would be grateful if they could let me know.

Thank you :


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Bird Brain, Welcome to pigeons.com

Many thanks for taking in these poor babies.

First issues: Second pigeon found in your garden. The symptoms sound much like PMV. Assuming it is, please isolate this bird away from any other birds. Place in a separate room if possible. 
I would suggest:
1) Placing him on a towel lined heating pad, set on low.
2) Cover all but one side of his cage.
3) Offer him seed in a deep dish & water in a dish small enough that he can't flip himself in it.

PMV is a neurological disorder that is enhanced by stress. Keeping him in a dark, quite (away from family & pet traffic) & warm area will help to ease the symptoms.

I would get him settled & then address the issues of your first rescued pigeon.

Others will be along to offer suggestions as well.

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Keep them both separate as the one that is spinning and turning in circles might have PMV which is infectious to other pigeons, mainly by contamination through the poops.

For that one, put seed in a deep dish, so that he doesn't miss when he pecks, and make certain that he has water in a deep or narrow dish. He should be able to control himself enough when he is not being watched to eat and drink, but watch those poops. It might be necessary to hand feed him on soaked dog biscuits, opening his beak and pushing them to the back of the throat.

It needs quiet and rest and should recover in a few weeks, but if you take him to a rescuer or rehabber he would be put down.

The one with the "balloon neck"....is it the front of the neck that is swollen? That could be a ruptured air sac, sometimes they deflate on their own, but if he seems to be in distress at any stage then you might have to deflate it, Terry has done this and will be able to explain the procedure to you.

Cynthia


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

thank you for replying so quickly, the 1st pigeon's neck seems to be inflated all around, but I think is slightly less than when I found it, i have put it in a spare parrot cage in the conservertory, will it be ok or does it have to go outside, also it sounded like it was tap dancing as it had large ball's of dried on poo stuck on the end of each toe, so i stood it in a tray of warm water till they came off.
the 2nd bird definatly cannot pick up any food it just flicks it everywhere, so i gave it some pigeon corn & a few peanuts by hand is this ok, it seems to be able to drink itself though. Also will they be ok in the same room if I put one at each end.

thanks
Lesley


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Lesley,

If the PMV bird is able to drink that is fine. You can help it to eat for now, until it manages to pick up seeds, but the less stress on that one the better. I would try to feed it about 1 tablespoon of wild bird seed and then make sure it drinks, and then let it rest. Do you have any pigeon multivitamin,minerals? Please put a dose in its water, as well as the other pigeon. Do you have any calcium supplements? You can give 1/4 dose of a human tablet to a pigeon. Crush it with spoon, add some water, and use a dropper and dispense down the back of the throat-behind the tongue.

Do you have another area to quarantine the bird with swollen neck. Not knowing what it is, it would be best to confine both in seperate room, if you don't have a seperate room, make sure they are far away from each other, the farther the better. 

The tap dancing may indicate some type of parasite and the stuck on poo, may be the same or different issue. What do the stuck on poos look like?
Also, have you looked down the throat of this pigeon do yout see anything unusual, discoloration, should be pink color? Does the bird have any labored or open-beak breathing?

Treesa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bird Brain, 

Open the swollen-neck Bird's Beak and in a good light, look down it's throat...see if anything is going on other than a nice pink color to things...

Up their B Vitamines if possible...

This might be an illness such as PMV certainly, but also might be a neorological effect from some illness other than PMV, or, Vitamine deficiency combined with some illness of some kind.

Canker can occasion the appearance of a swollen neck, certainly.

What do their poops look like?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It is the "seed tossing" that makes me think that this is PMV rather than the neurologicl effect of some other illness. I may be wrong, but I have not known this to be associated with any other disease. Besides which, I have heard that there have been outbreaks of Pigen PMV in feral flocks in England recently.  


Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The seed tossing, and flying backwards, match with the PMV cases we've had. The bird may need to be hand fed for awhile. Avoid stress is the main thing.

I have never encountered a bird with a swollen neck so I can't offer anything on this. You might check his neck carefully to see if there are any wounds on his head, neck or shoulders.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oye..kinda does sound like the PMV with the Seed-Tossing...

Still, there can be other co-existant illnesses or complications so do have a peek down that gullet...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

hello & thanks for the advice, I have put the pigeon that spins into a smaller cage & he does'nt thrash about so much,I have also put seed into a yoghurt pot & taped it to the side of the cage so it wont get knocked over & the bird can feed itself much better with not as much flicking about. The 2nd pigeon's neck is not as puffed up & has now got a "waist" between it's head & body which it never had before so it looks much better, the only thing is, I looked into it's mouth which is pink except for a small yellowish spot on the edge of the hole at the back of it's tongue, I dont have any kind of pigeon medicne but am willing to buy some as Ive looked at online shops but dont know what to get. 
many thanks
Lesley


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that little yellow spot sounds like canker. Would you say that it looks like a small piece of cheese? If that's the case then you need an anti-protozoal medication like metronidazole. Since you're in the UK, it would be best if Cynthia (cyro51) or John (John_D) advise you on what the best way to get a medicine for canker (actually "trichomoniasis") is.

Pidgey


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

thanks pidgey for replying so quickly,
I think it is canker the small pigeon has,there is a web site called "everything for pets.com" which has lots of pigeon medicine and is in the UK.I would be grateful if somebody could have a look and let me know if they sell anything I could get to treat it with. 
Thanx
Lesley


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Lesley,

If the neck is that swollen then he will need to be treated quickly, it would be best to go to the nearest veterinary surgery and buy some Spartrix (Carnidazole), you don't need a prescription. You don't know what damage it may be doing internally. so it needs to be halted.

Unfortunately the pills come in packs of 30, you only need 3 . The vet might be able to sell you three doses instead of a whole pack.

Otherwise I can get some in the post to you, I always keep plenty available to share but that won't arrive until Thursday at the earliest. If you e-mail me your address I can get them in the post tonight.

Cynthia


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

thank you Cynthia your a star, I recieved the tablets this morning and gave one to the pigeon straight away, The puffiness on it's neck has almost gone now so once the spot has gone out of it's mouth fingers crossed it should be ok. The other bird (with a lot of effort) is managing to eat and drink, but spends most of the time with it's head upside down, I have to keep changing the paper tho as the top of it's head is getting covered in poo, I tried putting in something for it to stand on so it was raised off the floor, but it kept falling off. Will it ever get well enough to be released, as room is getting a bit tight with 8 resident pigeons in the back who've had broken wings/beak etc, that over the years I've managed to find, (or did they find me ?)

Kind Regards
Lesley 

PS, I'm glad I found this site, as Its good to know that if any of our pigeons are ever ill, though we do try ,we dont even know if we've been looking after them correctly.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried making a special neck brace or collar that would limit how far the neck spasms could twist their necks? I'm thinking something like those collars that the put on dogs to keep them from picking at a wound. They do have those same collars for birds who sometimes perform self-mutilation and feather picking. 

Anyhow, if it were constructed right, I think it could prevent their head from going completely upside down. I also think they could be pretty easily made and secured. If anyone's interested, I could take a picture of the one kind out of the vet book and draw an illustration of what I'm thinking of. I've never seen or had a PMV bird to try it on so ya'll would have to perform the "field trial."

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

bird brain said:


> The other bird (with a lot of effort) is managing to eat and drink, but spends most of the time with it's head upside down, I have to keep changing the paper tho as the top of it's head is getting covered in poo, I tried putting in something for it to stand on so it was raised off the floor, but it kept falling off. Will it ever get well enough to be released, as room is getting a bit tight with 8 resident pigeons in the back who've had broken wings/beak etc, that over the years I've managed to find, (or did they find me ?)
> 
> Kind Regards
> Lesley
> ...


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

thanks for the quick reply, I'm willing to try anything that will help the little chap, I jus been in to check up on them and he was still in his upside down world, so i took him out of the cage & gently put his head up, it seems to when hes trying to preen he gets confused and cant bring his head back up.

thanx 
Lesley


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried making a special neck brace or collar that would limit how far the neck spasms could twist their necks? I'm thinking something like those collars that the put on dogs to keep them from picking at a wound. They do have those same collars for birds who sometimes perform self-mutilation and feather picking.
> 
> Anyhow, if it were constructed right, I think it could prevent their head from going completely upside down. I also think they could be pretty easily made and secured. If anyone's interested, I could take a picture of the one kind out of the vet book and draw an illustration of what I'm thinking of. I've never seen or had a PMV bird to try it on so ya'll would have to perform the "field trial."
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey,

From what I have read, I think trying to restrain a PMV pigeon will only stress it more, and therefore induce more contortions, I think with neurological problems, it is better to calm them with calcium & B complex and provide healing nourishment. The homeopathics also, heals and reduce the symptoms.
The pigeon is also stronger and better able to be stabilized.

Treesa


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Leslie,
Thanks for the update. So glad to her your little 'canker' pij seems to be doing better.


*Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried making a special neck brace or collar that would limit how far the neck spasms could twist their necks?*
The problem I see with 'constricting' a PMV pigeon, even if it's to help hold their head upright, is that one of the symptoms which may surface is body spasms or siezures. 
I'm afraid if a PMV pigeon has something around it's neck to keep it's head upright & it happened to go into a seizure it could injury itself quite badly. JMO.

Cindy


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

Thank you all for taking the time to reply to me,
This may sound silly but I put the TV on in the conservertory and the PMV pigeon seems much more settled (I'm sure hes watching it) Please could you tell what PMV is, is it a disease? & can I get the vitamins & suppliments from the health food shop or are they made especially for pigeons which will tell me the correct dosage to use, also can I give my own pigeons something to keep them healthy. Because although I can sort of cope with broken wings and legs & even have 'Beaky' a little pigeon who cannot feed himself as the two halves of his beak go in different directions, when they are ill I am at a complete loss.
The pigeon who had a swollen neck got out of his cage and took a bath in the dogs water bowl, while he was wet i noticed a nasty bruise on his breast, I wonder if this was somehow the cause for its neck to inflate.

thanx
Lesley


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, so the neck brace idea is out!

As to the bruise on the inflated neck, your bird probably had ruptured an air sac and literal air "pressurized" the outer skin. That happens although we usually see it under a wing. Many times people "deflate" them with a hypodermic needle (sterilized) and sometimes people let them go and they eventually deflate. I think earlier, some were concerned that it was actually swelling from canker or some other infection. I suppose that the question to have asked would have been whether the swelling seemed very substantial (fluid based) or more like it was just a puff of air. 

I'm not surprised about the TV--it always saps the life out of me, too.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Lesley,

My Feefo was much the same, I used to help her right her head at times when she couldn't do it for herself.

What I found helpful was:

Conium Mac (Conium Maculatum) or Hypericum. (I will check the dosage) 

I used Hypericum first and then Conium. Feefo went from having fits to flying, but then relapsed. I don't know which of them caused the improvement and wondered if she was having mini strokes.

I also put Bach Rescue Remedy in her drinking water. Four drops should do it.

I will send you some calcium syrup , hope it gets there by Monday but the post is so bad!

How far are you from Blackburn?

Cynthia


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

Thanks cynthia
can I get those things from the health food shop, I live in Manchester if you can suggest anywhere I dont mind travelling, I live about 30 mins from Blackburn.

Thanks 
Lesley


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Lesley,

PMV is caused by a virus, but vitamin supplements help pigeons recover.

You should be able to get the homeopathic remedies and Rescue Remedy from any health food shop or from Neal's Yard Remedies -- St. James's House 29, John Dalton St, Manchester, M2 6NY 

But I must have loads of the homeopathic pilules left from when I treated Feefo and I think there is a spare bottle of Rescue Remedy somewhere in the house. I will send you what I have and let you know what I don't have tomorrow.

Our moderator Nooti is in Blackburn but has lost touch, I don't know how to get in touch with her because she was in the process of getting married, moving etc. However, her vet, Laura, is at Springfield Vets, 144 Redlam, Blackburn....I have sent pigeons 300 miles across the country to be treated by Laura , so if you ever need a vet to see pigeons she is the one I would recommend.

The PMV pigeon might get better eventually, I hope so. It will take about three months to find out though and she really needs to be kept for over 6 months just to make certain that she will not have a relapse. Feefo came to me in July 2000, recovered by September 2000 and had a relapse in February 2001 . Gurdy, who was a lot worse off with his head upside down all the time came to me in November 2000, recovered by March 2001 and has been fine ever since.

I seem to remember trying to create a neck brace out of foam rubber for Feefo in the early days. It didn't work...I think Cindy is right in thinking that it could do more harm than good although it seemed a good idea to me at the time. Have you tried a brick for a perch?

Cynthia


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

Hello
Good news for the pigeon with canker & the neck problem (which I now believe to have been a ruptured air sac) the swelling and canker spot has completly gone!  I'm so pleased as its such a wide eyed sweet (but very scruffy) little thing, I've called him Mcduff. The PMV pigeon is still putting her head upside down but is managing to stand on a brick (thanks Cynthia)which is wrapped kitchen towel so her feet dont get cold, does pmv make them go tame as every time I go near it does little wing flaps to me and likes being held as she never struggles and goes asleep. Cynthia, the shop you mentioned in Manchester, my sister walks past it every day on her way to Kind Regards
Lesley


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Glad to hear the pigeons are doing nicely. I think the name "Mcduff" is a very appropriate and a great name!

Maybe the PMV pigeon feels secure with your presence and is able to relax with you holding it and giving it company.

Keep up the good work!

Treesa


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

hello just a note to let you know that Mcduff ( ruptured air sac & canker) is doing wonderful he/she has made such an improvent, feathers are growing
back around the neck and it looks **** a different bird from last week
The Pmv pigeon is also calmer and can control its head slightly better, it also does'nt flail about as much, thanks to Cynthia for sending me the medications, I gave it the conium mac , rescue remedy & liquid calcium, the calcium seemed to have effect quickly as it muscles its neck seemed to relax for a while, and it was'nt twisting round as bad. did you make up the liquid calcium yourself or buy it?, the only liquid form I could find included magnesium & zinc, would this be ok to use. Last year I had calcium deficiency myself & still have some sandacol (efferscent tablets) if these could be of any use.


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

I forgot to mention before that a friend of mine runs a hedgehog hospital, & if ever she has a hedgehog having seizures or muscle spasms, then she gives it belladonna and wondered if it would work for pigeons, but was'nt sure of the dosage.

thanks
Lesley


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

i've tried to post photo's of the two pigeons but am not quite sure how to do it 
lesley


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The belladona should also work in pigeons with neurological problems.
Personally I have no experience with it, but Treesa knows the dosage, I am sure, she will let you know.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Lesley,

Did the calcium survive the journey? I must sort out something safe and light to send it in!

I get mine from Gem : http://www.gemsupplements.co.uk/ 
It has vitamin D3 in it and it is specially designed for pigeons so I don't have to calculate the dosage.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Beginning on 12/17/95 and continuing over a period of 20 days, we got in 8 PMV pigeons. They all came from the same area. In later years we got in two more groups of about 3 each but none of the severity as these first 8. We worked with vets, other rehabbers and read what we could find out about this disease, which, at that time, wasn't much.

Two of these birds symptoms were severe - couldn't fly, walk, eat, fell on back continually, severe tremors, and heads bobbing up and down. The "star gazing" was not as evident in these two. These birds died within 2 weeks of getting them. Two others had almost the same symptoms but to a lesser degree. One of these birds was kept until 9/96 and made a complete recovery and was released; the other had a frozen wing but recovered from the PMV and lived out his life in an aviary. The 5th bird had similar symptoms but could move around. One of the vets we saw wanted to keep the bird and try different meds - some worked (metronidazole and baytril tablet) and she was able to eat but relapsed and he euthanized her. The 6th bird's symptoms were much less severe but she couldn't fly. She did learn to fly in our kitchen and was put in an aviary only to relapse and we started all over again. She recovered and this time did very well in the aviary. The 7th bird "star gazed" continually, could not eat for about 3 months, and one leg turned to the side but not from an injury. He recovered enough to eat well and the star gazing would only appear under stress. The 8th bird could not control head movements and flew backwards most of the time, tried to eat seed but the seed always flew over her head so we hand fed her for 1 1/2 years. The interesting thing about this bird is she could run really fast. We kept her in our house and in an aviary most of the time. I took her back to the vet who decided to do a blood study and diagnosed Newcastles. She recommended euthanasia because she didn't know whether this disease, although it appeared the bird was free of it, would reoccur. It was one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make but we agreed.

Reducing PMV birds stress is the most important thing I can recommend. Give them vitamins and good nourishing food, and most of all give them a lot of attention and love. They are incredibly gentle, inquisitive little birds., and love to be held. I am attaching some pictures in case some members have never seen what PMV looks like. One other thing we noticed was these birds seem to have their heads stuck in their shoulders - almost like they have no neck at all.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Lady Tarheel,

From one Southerner to another, you got a lotta' courage and dedication! That sounds like quite a lot of pure hard work with no end in sight (at least for a long time). I personally look UP to you on this regard. I feel so fortunate that we don't seem to have the incidence of that around here.

Were you keeping other birds at the time and did you vaccinate everything in the house due to them? And if so, did it work just fine? Also, did these birds exhibit the "voluminous green soupy droppings" that I've heard about?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pidgey,

Voluminous soupy green droppings are not a characteristic PMV dropping. My understanding is that it doesn't affect the digestive system but the kidneys, which causes the droppings to be thin solid green "worms" in a pool of liquid. There is a good photo in the Chevita site http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html 

The nervous symptoms can be caused by a variety of diseases but the combination of nervous sympytoms and "wormlike" droppings are a strong indication of PMV.

However, I believe that voluminous droppings can be a symptom of END.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

HEY PIDGEY - thanks for the comments. There is an old proverb about "God looks after fools, drunks and little children" and the first one probably applies to me We had been rehabbing 1 1/2 years when we got the first one in and he was #45 so we were still learning about taking care of various ailments when they arrived. Luckily, it was winter so the baby crop had not started although we kept two of these birds for quite awhile. We kept only those birds in our dining room and garage until about April or May. We washed our hands, changed our shirts, cloroxed the floor and counter etc. each time we had them out. Feeding utensils were cloroxed also. However, other birds were exposed to the two we later put in our aviary. Another rehabber took the others that did not die because our aviary was so small. None of the other birds in our aviary or our friend's aviary ever came down with PMV and none of the other birds were ever vaccinated. Of course, knowing what I know now, they would be vaccinated. There's another old saying that "ignorance is bliss" but I'm thankful that our other birds did not suffer for it.

maggie

I don't recall anything significant about how their poops looked. I looked back in my records and saw no notes about it.

Although it is hard working with the PMV symptom birds, I personally think that working with birds with lead poisoning is the most difficult.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Maggie,



> I personally think that working with birds with lead poisoning is the most difficult.


Is this something that you have found in pigeons? I have only ever come across one bird with lead poisoning and that was a swan, so Swan Rescue dealt with it. I only knew that the swan was not behaving as I thought it should be...I wouldn't know how to recognise lead poisoning. So, tell us more!

Cynthia


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

thanks cynthia , most of the calcium survived the journey, (lucky you put one bag inside the other) the canker & swollen neck pij is getting better & better each day, he even wing flapped me this morning!  PMV pij is much the same, but no worse although it is managing to eat I'm not sure exactly how much she is getting, so every night I hand feed her about 20-30 pigeoncorn & peanuts is this ok ? also a couple of years ago I found two pigeon's within three days of each other showing the exact same symptoms as this one, but I did'nt know what it was nor did anyone I asked, I never went to the vet, we did'nt have the internet so I could'nt look for any information there,
it had been very windy and I wondered if they had been blown into something and maybe had concussion, and in the end I convinced myself that was what was wrong with them, but I now know that they must have had PMV, I had to feed one of the birds by hand for about 4 months but eventually they started to get better and today live in our aviary along with 6 other pijies, they are still well and no other of our other pigeons ever caught it ( thank god) If someone could tell me how to post a photo I have took some and could show you. I have followed all the attachment instructions but the photos dont show on the post.
Thanks Lesley


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Cynthia. We have had three birds diagnosed with lead poisoning. The primary symptom is that the bird can't stand up (and shows no other physical reason for not being able to stand) and when that happens the vet x-rays. You can actually see the specks in the gut on the x-ray. Other symptoms include extremely watery, green stools, some CNS symptoms( though mild compared to true PMV), emaciation and extreme weakness, and inability to digest food. 

One of the birds had lead in the crop, gut, intestines and the crop was 3 x the size it should be. It's entire system shut down and the vet euthanized. Another did live for a week. With the third bird, we actually had hopes for its survival because lead poisoning can be successfully treated. When we found this bird under a bridge, it couldn't stand, its legs were positioned toward the back of the body instead of the front, liquid was coming from its mouth and it was extremely weak. The treatment of choice by our vet was Calcium Versinate, injected intramuscularly, 2 x day. (Shots are given in the muscle on either side of the keel, with the needle pointed downward, and you switch from one side to the other with the shots. It is best if there are two people doing this - one to hold the bird and the other to give the shot. Apply a dab of antibiotic cream where the needle is inserted.) This bird overall had approximately 30 shots. He had to be hand fed and the poop was very bad - smelly, loose, and green. We kept him on a heating pad and used a "doughnut" towel to keep him as dry as possible.

The bird did show some improvement. His legs moved back to a normal position and he began drinking some water on his own, but his digestive system was still failing. Another x-ray was taken which showed no lead and his lab work was normal. The vet flushed his crop and we gave him Propulsid because the food was not digesting. Within a week of stopping the injections, his condition deteriorated again with his legs again going to the back of his body, he was pooping mostly Exact, and he became extremely weak. The vet decided to euthanize. 

We also tried a couple of odd things - mixed in peanut butter in his exact and also gave him strong tea - both of which were recommended by a vet tech and the vet said it couldn't hurt to try. She had worked at our state vet school and she said the peanut butter did help with the birds they had gotten in there.

When I compare the PMV birds to those with lead poisoning the difference is the extreme sickness brought on by the lead. They require a lot of TLC.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Lesley,

I also have PMV recoveries living in the aviary with my other pigeons and so does Myriam in Belgium, neither of us have experienced any problems. I believe that studies of Newcastle Disease Virus have shown that the virus can be shed for several weeks, but not for as long as a year. As PMV is a close cousing of the NDV I think that the time element may be similar although I have read that they cease to shed it in 6 weeks. I keep my PMV pigeons in isolation for 12 weeks and that is about the length of the recovery period though I have heard of pigeons taking longer than that to recover and that pigeons suffering from NDV can take up to a year to recover. My first 5 PMV rescues arrived in 2000, fortunately I had access to the internet and found the Pigeon Recovery website which identified the symptoms and advised to keep them isolated, stress free and to hand feed if necessary for at least 6 weeks.

Can you do a poop count on PMV pidgie? I gave my first rescue 7 little pieces of wholemeal bread soaked in water as a supplement, it wasn't nearly enough to keep her alive (but I didn't know that) so she must have been picking up enough on her own. If a pigeon isn't eating at all it will need about a tablespoon of seed twice a day. A poop count will establish how much yours is eating on its own. You can do it over 24 hours or overnight. I will count Hawkeye's to compare, but I am fairly certain that there should be between 20 and 30 "raisin sized" poops a day (one of our UK rescuers keeps track of progress by counting poops.)

Another way to check whether they are eating enough is to weigh them regularly and keep track of the weight. An easy way to weigh accurately is to put them in a small plastic "small animal" holder and then on the digital scales. Deduct the weight of the carrier from the total.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Can We Get A Sticky Done On This Great Info?*

Great information Lady Tarheel, 

We need as much info as possible dealing with poisonings, and symptoms, vs: PMV and symptoms and NDV. You just gave us a wealth of information. I would love to pick your brain. 

Cynthia, 

Your info on PMV needs to be put in a sticky if it isn't already. You have so much experience and insight, I learn something new everytime I read your posts.


I can only add, that my rehabber uses barley leaf for mercury poisoning to detox the liver in birds of the sea, she also has been successful with using milk thistle seed to detox birds. There are a lot of herbs and plants available to detox various organs and even the brain, such as cracked wall chlorella, turmeric, I guess I will have to make it my job to find out which ones of the many can actually be used on birds as well as people. With the exception of barley leaf powder and milk thistle seed, whcih work well on birds.

This way we can start the birds on detox measures if we suspect poisoning, because time is of the essence (and we can't get to a vet right away sometimes), without worrying about side effects.


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

Hello & thanks for all the great advice, your all so kind.
Cynthia I've tried to count PMV pijies poo's to see if she is getting enough to eat, I think there's about 20 or so per 24 hr's, it's difficult to be exact as I have to change the paper 3 or 4 times a day to make sure the box is clean incase she falls about. Also something else I've noticed is that the her legs are almost straight as she hardly ever bends the 'knee' and never tucks them away, even at night, when I pick her up they relax slightly but as I put her down they seem to stiffen and I have to hold her steady until she can stand on her own, sometimes she falls about trying to get her footing and I am worried that she will scratch an eye as the other day one of the nails scratched the eyelid but luckily it was ok. It looks like the muscles are really tight in the legs which worsens when her neck contorts, and I wondered if you could suggest anything to try help relax them, In spite of this she seems quite happy as she preens and watches the TV in the conservatory.
Kind Regards
Lesley


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Lesley,

I will give that some thought. There will be a suitable homeopathic remedy. Feefo was very much the same, she would be writhing on the floor one minute then pick herself up, give her tail a litttle shake and forget the episode within seconds.

Have you tried 4 drops of Rescue Remedy in the drinking water? That serves to "comfort and reassure", but might also relax the muscles.

Apparently pigeons tolerate Valium, but I don't know the dose and even if I did I wouldn't risk using it except in cases of poisoning where it would be essential to relax the muscles.

Cynthia


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