# The Tragedy of the White Pigeon



## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

The white pigeon is born in a coop to a mated pair of the same color. The baby is fed a wholesome crop milk and then when he's old enough, he walks right over to food cups and has his fill. When he's thirsty, he goes over to the water cup and has his fill. He always knows where the the food and water will be and it's always there.

Most people do not train their white pigeons to home. They're fodder to make money at wedding releases and other occasions. If the young married couple knew what was to befall these beautiful birds, I don't think they would approve of the release. 

There comes a day when the youngster is grabbed up out of the coop and whisked away in a box. He's terrified but has no control over his fate. All of a sudden, he's thrown up out of the box and into a strange world filled with strange sounds and is completely lost. He flies into the air not knowing where his home is and not knowing where to land. Days go by and he gets hungrier and more thirsty. If he's lucky, he'll find water and not antifreeze. If he's lucky, he will be able to hook up with a flock of ferals and if he's smart, he'll mimic the flock behavior and learn to peck at bread and frankfurters or if he isn't, he'll peck at something invisible on the cement. If he's lucky, he won't find a roasted peanut and eat it. That's his fate.

Most of the white pigeons aren't lucky. They drink poisoned water. From wholesome foods, they go down to bread. Their systems aren't built to withstand the illnesses that the ferals are more used to from being exposed to them from birth. The stress the white pigeon is under will get him sicker, faster and cause him to die sooner.

About four months ago, a white pigeon joined the flock I feed. He came every day at the same time with the flock. He was larger than the ferals and I thought he had some King Pigeon in him. He ate his share of food and he knew from the flock that there was a dripping outdoor faucet for a hose that he could go to for water. He was one of the lucky ones. I picked him up anyway and brought him in to check him out. He had a good weight and there were no signs of illness but just in case, I gave him an Appertex to cut down on the coccidia they all have and a Spartrix for three days because I knew he was under stress and I didn't want to take any chances with him. I put him on a calcium grit, vitamins and minerals and made sure his crop was full. I held him for a week, not enough time to rebuild him by any measure. By the end of the week, he was pacing back and forth to get out, his droppings were good and I had to let him go. (I lost everybody I knew who could take this bird. They either retired from the activity or moved away or got sick or passed away.) I have to now treat and release and that's what I had to do with him. 

So, he went back to his flock and they all came every day for their daily ration of seeds. It snowed here about a week ago and I had to sweep away an area so the birds could come down onto icy ground to eat. About that time, the white bird didn't show up, not that day or the next or the next. I figured he was hawked and I missed him.

He showed up today but he was a shell of what he used to look like. He landed and fell onto his rump. He staggered up and then fell forward and in that position he tried to eat the seed within his reach. I immediately picked him up and he felt as light as a feather. His keel was very prominent so there had been a dramatic weight loss. This was one sick bird. I hydrated him with 9 CC of Pedialyte. He got all the medications he would need to cover almost everything he could possibly have, Appertex, Spartrix, Baytril, Flagyl, Nystatin, a cod liver oil capsule and a Brewers Yeast pill plus an injection of hydration fluid. He'll be wormed in a few days if he lasts that long. I fed him some Purina Puppy Chow and about three hours later, he had a dropping, mostly pure water and some green muddish fecal material. He's a shadow of the proud, strong and confident bird I found those months ago.

I don't know if it's too late to save him but he'll get the best care I can give any bird. If he makes it, gets over his illness or illnesses, gains his weight back and regains his strength, he will be released back into the flock he calls his own. And then what? The cycle begins again?

That's the tragedy of the white pigeon.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Pigeonperson,

This is such a sad story. I have white pigeons, so I have a very vivid picture in my mind of what you described. Every spring I have these young tumblers that wind up at my house in the same depleted condition. Some of them do not make it. They are just little skeletons with feathers. I sure hope that your new white friend can make it through this.

Feather


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> * *Most people do not train their white pigeons to home*.
> 
> ** *If he makes it, gets over his illness or illnesses, gains his weight back and regains his strength, he will be released back into the flock he calls his own. And then what? The cycle begins again?*
> That's the tragedy of the white pigeon.


* Although I'm not in the 'dove release' business, that seems to be a pretty strong accusation.  

** You always have the option of posting that you have a white pigeon that needs to be adopted, rather than sending it back into the wild. 
Chuck makes regular trips to all parts of NY. In the event you come across another white pigeon, please let me know. He would gladly take him off your hands & bring him back to AZ.

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It is wrong to paint all white bird release businesses with the same paint brush. There are many reputable ceremonial release businesses who have healthy, well cared for, and well trained pigeons, and who care about their birds. Sadly, there are also the other kind who don't give a whit what happens to the birds .. only about what happens to "fly" into their bank account or hip pocket. The birds that at least get a "good" start in life are lucky .. try being a white dove or a pigeon being sold at a swap meet or in a market where the chance of becoming part of someone's next meal are pretty much equal to the chance of being released by an unknowing member of the public who thinks they are doing a beautiful and wonderful thing .. the outcomes are pretty much the same .. dead is dead.

I do know from my own rescue/rehab efforts that if I release a bird back to the wild and I end up getting it back because it wasn't making it, then I will NOT ever release it back again. It will be found a home. This doesn't happen too often, but when it does, that's my plan of action. 

I do completely understand the constraints that many of our wonderful rescuers and rehabbers work under .. not everyone has a loft or a large yard or a large apartment or cooperative neighbors or landlords .. the very sad bottom line is that there are far more birds and animals in need of assistance and homes than there are resources for them.

I hope this white bird will recover nicely and be able to make a cross country trip to AZ or perhaps further west  

Terry


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## SabRhund (Feb 25, 2007)

I know my patio pigeons aren't the best example, since obviously, they didn't go "home" after they were released at that wedding. But I do know that our neighbor has 30 or 40 white homers, and they are trained to home and usually do come back. Pigeon just...didn't. Well, he did swing by there, but only to pick up his girlfriend.

But anyway, I guess white homers are like so many other hobbies or sports or interests...like horse racing, horse showing, etc (I'm big into the horses too). You've got your good breeders/exhibitors, and the bad ones. And the bad ones can leave a sour taste in your mouth that cannot be undone by any interaction with the good ones. We just have to hope that we can change things by education and through awareness, and to save the ones that we can.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not painting the business with a broad brush. There is a pigeon release group in Yahoo that specifically says they only want people who train the birds to home. I'm saying that there is no such business in my area and that the birds do not know how to home. I live in a lousy area where the birds are concerned but I do know there are responsible pigeon release businesses. I feel sick about this particular bird. If you only saw him 4 months ago.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

not every white pigeon has seen a basket for a release on wedding day let alone a basket for training .. there are many factors other then what you have stated that have lead a pigeon to stray.. hawks ,weather ,even being to strong on the wing are more then many times the cause for these birds to get lost and thats something that can happen right off their landing boards ... and as for not faring well as apposed to the ferals thats far from true ,pigeons are pigeons be it white or grey ,some are just better at adapting then others .I for one have witnessed many whites living very well and wild around here for years now and with our hawk population you would think they wouldnt make it thru one season let alone a few, yet here they are...so please dont label them helpless when they are far from that and no different from any other pigeon walking the streets or lining the high wires along highways and bridges ..I do commend you on helping this one but I dont see how you could throw it back to the wild when you just stated he couldnt adapt to living in the wild in the first place


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

LokotaLoft,

You are so right. If this bird does survive and although I doubt it, I'll try my best but he can't be released back. I have to go to work and try to find somebody who can take him. I'll try to find pigeon clubs in this area to try for any leads. It can't remain like this, that I don't have anyone to give the bird to and there will be others. 

I have a feral male that has a huge amount of calcification on his upper thigh from an old badly healed break. It's interfered with his ability to move his leg and there is probably nerve damage too so he's hopping on his right foot with very little motion in the left. He'll never make it out there either so that's another one that needs a home.

I also have a bird with string injury that took off part of his left foot and all of his front toes. I can't see how he will be able to walk on cement and not develop a bumble foot so I would love to see him cooped.

This never ends and so I have to find somebody out there. This is New York and there are more rescuers than rehabilitators and there are more rehabilitators than there are places to take the birds to for permanent homing. 

Cindy, does Chuck actually come into New York City?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

LokotaLoft,
I don't think I agree with you about the birds being very adaptive. It depends on how well they have been raised and the better they have been raised, the worse off they are on the outside.

If a fancier like a racing pigeon owner feeds a bird with the best of foods, many vitamins and minerals and then periodically treats for all kinds of illnesses prophylactically, the immunity system doesn't have to work. Vaccinate for pox, paratyphoid and PMV, there is no reason for the immunity system to work. Treat for canker and cocci on a periodic basis and the bird will have no reason for its body to have to learn how to cope with a low grade level of these infections. 

Now, the bird gets lost for whatever reason. He goes from luxury to poverty. He goes from prime foods down to bread and any other kind of garbage he can find on the streets. He's been treated for worms for most of his life and now he gets worms from the ground. He drinks canker and coccidia laden water and he gets a high level of both. He's exposed to paratyphoid and he doesn't have the minimal immunity that ferals might have. Basically, he took a nose dive and his body goes into stress from all of this. Stress lowers resistance plus never having been exposed to these illnesses doesn't help him fight off lower levels of infection that ferals carry inside of themselves and are used to. That's the reason why banded birds don't do well on the outside. They get more sick, faster and their lives are not going to be long.

Now, don't get me wrong. There are plenty of people who treat their white birds beautifully but there are others that don't. Those birds that are not treated well and are destined to be thrown up in the air for weddings might do better than their counterparts that have had no reason to maintain an active, healthy immunity system. On the other hand, these same birds that are not treated so well do not know what a car can do. They do not know the difference between anti freeze and water. (I lost 1 king from anti freeze poisoning this past year). They do not know how to forage for food and have to learn from scratch. I've picked up a lot of skeletal birds both banded and whites and I just can't understand how anyone can think they do well on the outside. Maybe in your area, the birds are fed on a regular basis with seed but that isn't the case here and it shows.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

PP,

Just get this bird to me or to Cindy via her husband .. 

Terry


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks,
If he lives and if I can't find somebody in this area. He's a very sick bird and right now, that's all I can tell you about him.

Terry, you know L in Queens very well. She needs G in New Jersey. If I dump on G, L suffers and I'm not going to do that to her. I've been limited down out of respect for L. No life of a bird is worth the grief L would suffer and it could devastate her. It's her entire life.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I was told by our pigeon feed supplier that there are two white dove release firms here and that they use homers. The problem is the funeral directors. The buy white doves and do their own releases. I heard this from the people that own a commercial aviary. When they are asked what happens to the dove they say that they assume it will join a flock somewhere. I doubt that there is a remote chance of that happening if the release takes place outside the city!


Cynthia


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

No offense to anyone, but I totally agree with pigeonperson.
The number of WHITE birds found in Queens, Brooklyn & Manhattan, is disgustingly high. Several were seen on the side of a parkway. From what I was told, they were not in great shape.
I am ashamed to say it, but here in New York, there are too many owners who do not give a ____ about these innocent creatures.
It stinks, but it seems that their main concern is making a buck!

pigeonperson ~ It is very kind of you to consider L, & to try to find homes for your birds.
My husband & I bring L & her rescues to G. in New Jersey. Lately, we have been making the trip often because we have been taking rescues from others to G.

My heart broke as I read your post because I related to
it. On a bitter cold January night, my white pigeon was found on the ground in Queens. He was all alone in the dark.
When we brought him home, we discovered he was banded. His "loving" owner did not want him returned.
I thank God every single day for allowing us to find Jesse. He has been a true blessing & has changed our lives for the better.

Although it hurt to read it, I thank you for taking the time to post your feelings.
I pray your pigeon makes it, & that all of them may find loving homes.
May God bless you for helping His creatures.

Cindy & Terry ~ Thank you for offering this poor bird a home.

Phyll


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Wouldnt it be easeir and more profitable for the people so send trained white pigeons to ceremonies as they come back for another release. 

White pigeons run another major problem - people like this color for the plate


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonperson,

IF the bird survives and is back to optimum health, PLEASE get it boxed up and send it to me, I aready have a few "wedding release" survivors, one more certainly won't be a problem for me.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

what makes you think wild pigeons are all that resistant to all that you mentioned ?? there are countless pigeons that you dont see that fall prey to all the illness n diseases and die too but because they are not white you dont notice them as much... on the larger scale how many ferals do you really think are surviving ?? just because the flocks are huge doesnt mean the losses arent imense as how do you think so many people come upon these sick and dying ferals here on a daily basis in comparison to the few whites you see for every 500 pigeons out there ?? White pigeons are not all that stupid either and with the amount of ferals out there its not hard for them to find and forage with them ,its just the fact that there are so many other ferals out there in compitition with them and that is one of their hugest downfalls as a bag of seeds/bread only goes so far with 200 hundred pigeons .
Im not saying its right for these others to neglect their birds to the point of them getting lost all over the countryside but your comparing birds that have all the same basics instints and resistances any feral would have if not more being that they have been exposed to things such as pox or pmv at least to some degree with their vaccinations ,something wild birds just come into contact with and die from being that that dont even have that much resistance ..and as for worms their is no resistance to that so they could all just as easily die from infestations be it they are white homer or not ..it just comes down to the fact that living in the wild for any pigeon has just made their life span limited no matter how resistant they are or how well they are adapted for it


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> it just comes down to the fact that living in the wild for any pigeon has just made their life span limited no matter how resistant they are or how well they are adapted for it


That is very sad. But we can help extend their lifespan by providing food, clean water and watching out for the sick and injured.

The ability of some domestic birds to adapt to life in the wild is well illustrated by the flocks of Quaker Parrots (?) in the US and the Ring Necked Parakeets in the UK. And feral pigeons exist because of the adaptability of the domestic pigeon.

We should be able to determne which pigeons are likely to survive if released by their behaviour in captivity and the ailment that brought them into our care. Recently I released 5 white pigeons back into the feral flock that they were born into. One was a squeaker, which I released because he was so assertive. He is doing well. Another of the rescues was just too passive and tame to release (I suspect that people dump tame birds into the flock) , so I have kept her.



> Wouldnt it be easeir and more profitable for the people so send trained white pigeons to ceremonies as they come back for another release.


That used to be my view, but white pigeons/doves are too readily available and too cheap...did you read the thread about the "surplus" white doves sold by a wedding release business as food to a zoo? (They were rescued). Training homers involves an investment in time and accommodation and a lot of people are just after making a quick buck.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

oh and just so you know ,nobody here hand feeds these white homers that I have in my area, as its not a city with parks and such .They are all kinda spread out too being that there is one white per feral flock excpet for one flock that hold about 5 white homers in it. They are all foraging for themselves too without human aid unless you count open farmland as aid .You cant even get within a stones throw from these birds plus there is one other fancy in the flock with fancy booted feet thats been there for a year now which I find very impressive as I have stated earlier there are many hawks in my area and hit these flocks on a daily basis ..


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> *I also have a bird with string injury that took off part of his left foot and all of his front toes. I can't see how he will be able to walk on cement and not develop a bumble foot so I would love to see him cooped.*
> 
> * *This never ends and so I have to find somebody out there. This is New York and there are more rescuers than rehabilitators and there are more rehabilitators than there are places to take the birds to for permanent homing.*
> 
> ***Cindy, does Chuck actually come into New York City?*


* Well, like I said, all you have to do is post that you have a pigeon(s) needing adoption & we will do whatever it takes to find it/them a good home. 

** Yes, nearly every week.
His destinations vary, but these are some of the places he frequents.
Staten Island, Brooklyn, Qweens, The Bronx, 'Hunt's Point' & Long Island.

Cindy


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

Phyl,
You see it as I see it and I don't know why others don't. There has to be a reason for the discrepancy because we are both not crazy. We're both good observers. The difference has to be the areas where the birds live. There are cleaner places than NYC. We probably live and see things that others are fortunate not to have to live with in other parts of the country. Lakotaloft was very adamant about what he(?) sees in his part of the world. We unfortunately don't see that. 
G takes a lot of birds from a number of people so it's not just L. It's you too. G has limits and I don't know when she will reach them but it has to be sooner rather than later unless she builds an outdoor loft.

Cynthia,
A lot of the quakers were killed off by the electrical company in Connecticut. There was a massive outcry and some people set up high poles with platforms so the surviving birds could find another place to build their nests. 
The quakers in New York are being kidnapped probably by people looking to make a quick dollar.

Cindy,
I can't thank you enough for the offer. I'm still hoping that I can find somebody in this area because I would only be doing a half way job if I release a bird that shouldn't be released. I'll have to work very hard to find somebody here. As time goes by, there seems to be fewer and fewer people with coops.

The white bird died less than an hour ago. He was seizing so it wasn't a peaceful death.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I am so sorry that this bird did not make it. I too witnessed a bird just after it had been released that I knew was not going to make it very far. He was released in the Foothills (Hawk Alley) and he was so big he could barely fly. I only saw one...I wonder what happened to the other. It is still bothering me. 

Feather


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

Feather,
These things don't go away. We just shelve these memories someplace in the back of our mind and sometimes bring them out, dust them off and then try to forget them again. He was a nice bird but then again, they all are.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I carry it around pretty much like it is a needle sticking in my eye.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> He got all the medications he would need to cover almost everything he could possibly have, Appertex, Spartrix, Baytril, Flagyl, Nystatin, a cod liver oil capsule and a Brewers Yeast pill plus an injection of hydration fluid.


Did he get all those at the same time, Pigeon Person? It won't have affected this particular pigeon but giving antibiotics at the same time as Brewers Yeast can cause aspergillosis. It is not a combination that I would risk.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

Cynthia,
Can you tell me what you know about Brewers Yeast and aspergillosis? Is it that the Brewers Yeast could contain the fungus?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

I wasnt saying that these birds belong out in the wild to fend for themselves but was just pointing out that they can and will if they have to . I just dont understand why you seem to only point out the tradgedy of white birds thou not fairing so well when there are countless others that arent white out there as well that are lost during each an every race racing season, be it for their training or during a race .If you hadnt noticed there are hundreds that go lost at a single race at times that are never seen or heard about again


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

LakotaLoft,
We aren't talking on the same wavelength. You're comparing white pigeons to banded homers and saying it's the same for both. You're right but I'm comparing these birds to ferals and you're not thinking in terms of that. When you compare ferals to homers and/or whites, the ferals can and do survive much better.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

LokotaLoft said:


> I wasnt saying that these birds belong out in the wild to fend for themselves but was just pointing out that they can and will if they have to . I just dont understand why you seem to only point out the tradgedy of white birds thou not fairing so well when there are countless others that arent white out there as well that are lost during each an every race racing season, be it for their training or during a race .If you hadnt noticed there are hundreds that go lost at a single race at times that are never seen or heard about again


I think you have a point there. Some racers adapt to feral life, but my own observations over the past few years indicate that they more often just seem bewildered and don't know how to forage (or even what to eat if it isn't like proper pigeon feed). I have found several racers. Three - or maybe four - last year had obviously been hammered by severe weather and been way off course from one particular race, but most have been out there awhile and - it appeared - just got progressively weaker through their inability to handle a feral existence. None of them were white, by the way.

John


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2007)

being that this all seems to be taking place in the UK that your talking about, dont lots of people there just let their white pigeons free fly having them in dovecoats ?? this I would imagine would allow them to go anywhere at anytime wouldnt it, making them sort of a ferel with a place to feed at their home base if they so chose ?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> Cindy,
> I can't thank you enough for the offer.
> * *I'm still hoping that I can find somebody in this area because I would only be doing a half way job if I release a bird that shouldn't be released.
> 
> ** I'll have to work very hard to find somebody here. As time goes by, there seems to be fewer and fewer people with coops.*


Pigeonperson,
* Could you please explain your first sentence?  

** You wouldn't have to work at all, although he isn't a local person, Chuck is willing to practically come to your doorstep & pick up a bird or two that need to be placed in a good home. 

Cindy


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Pigeonperson,
I'm sorry the pigeon didn't make it, & that it was not a peaceful death. 
We can't be certain that he or she was actually from a release, but I hope that someday Dove/Pigeon Releases will be monitored ~ especially in New York. 
Creatures have enough trouble without people exploiting them. I feel it's very sad that some people make their living using birds as nothing more than objects.

Releasing untrained birds to get lost, & possibly starve to death, is a sin.
If these people have two brain cells to rub together, they have to realize it's the wrong thing to do! As for people who intentionally abuse animals, I always ask God to please remove them from here as soon as possible. If they are gone, they can never harm another innocent creature. I better stop now.

May God bless you.

Phyll


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Cynthia,
> Can you tell me what you know about Brewers Yeast and aspergillosis? Is it that the Brewers Yeast could contain the fungus?


Try this link http://www.dcppp.com/DenicaPDMiscProblems.htmwhich says:



> Aspergillus:
> 
> Symptoms of the Disease:
> 
> ...


And this one http://www.boglinmarsh.com/azdis1.htm which says:

*Do not give Brewers Yeast *to parents rearing young due to possible yeast/fungus problems and avoid any recommendation to do so! Although Brewers Yeast is an excellent weapon in the pigeon fanciers armoury for supplying B Complex vitamins there are times when it must not be used i.e. during rearing; *whilst administering antibiotic treatments *or nursing pigeons with fungal afflictions. 

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for sharing that information, Cynthia.

I usually add Brewers Yeast along with probiotics to the seed once a week, but not with birds raising young and definitely not when using antibiotics, except the natural kind.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

Cynthia,
Thanks for all the research. I should say that I only give one Brewers Yeast tablet to each bird. Among other things, it helps support the nervous system, help with the health of the blood streams and increases appetite.
As you said, it didn't matter here. I knew about Brewers Yeast with a current yeast infection and that makes sense but I never realized that adding a mold to an already existing aspergillosis condition, also a mold, could hurt and that's very helpful to know so thank you.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Cynthia,
> .....
> As you said, it didn't matter here. I knew about Brewers Yeast with a current yeast infection and that makes sense but *I never realized that adding a mold to an already existing aspergillosis condition, also a mold, could hurt* and that's very helpful to know so thank you.


pigeonperson, I thought the quote was referring to creating an Aspergillosis
condition through the concurrent use of antibiotics with Brewers Yeast even
when none pre-existed.

_"Although Brewers Yeast is an excellent weapon in the pigeon fanciers armoury for supplying B Complex vitamins there are times when it must not be used i.e. during rearing; whilst administering antibiotic treatments or nursing pigeons with fungal afflictions."_

So no Brewer's Yeast:

1. During rearing

2. While administering antibiotics

3. While nursing pigeons already suffering with a fungal affliction

fp


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

fp,
Good point. Now I'm confused about this. It's a reading interpretation problem and I now don't know.
Going back to basics, if there is no aspergillosis in the system of an animal, the fungus won't be created by a combination of Brewers Yeast and an antibiotic. 
If there is an aspergillus in the system, then I gather that the combination of an antibiotic and Brewers Yeast will make it worse. That's what I think the quote means anyway.
And what antibiotic is being referred to? Is it a bacterial antibiotic or a fungal antibiotic like Nystatin or a canker antibiotic?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I thought the quote was referring to creating an Aspergillosis
> condition through the concurrent use of antibiotics with Brewers Yeast even
> when none pre-existed.


I think you are right fp. I did some research on aspergillosis a few years ago and I found a reference that said that giving brewer's yeast to a pigeon while it was antibiotics is one of the main causes of aspergillosis.

I will try to track that down when I have time.

Pigeon Person, you mentioned that a high number of your PMV pigeons had aspergillosis, I can't remember what treatment they received and I know they are susceptible but could this also be a result of a combination of Baytril and Brewers Yeast?

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> fp,
> Good point. Now I'm confused about this. It's a reading interpretation problem and I now don't know.
> Going back to basics, if there is no aspergillosis in the system of an animal, the fungus won't be created by a combination of Brewers Yeast and an antibiotic.
> If there is an aspergillus in the system, then I gather that the combination of an antibiotic and Brewers Yeast will make it worse. That's what I think the quote means anyway.
> And what antibiotic is being referred to? Is it a bacterial antibiotic or a fungal antibiotic like Nystatin or a canker antibiotic?


Aspergilluoryzioe & Candida pintolepesii are two of the ingredients in "Probiotic",
a product manufactured by Vetafarm. Yeasts/fungi may exist in the body like so many other organisms but not in the numbers qualifying it to be considered a disease state.

I believe the quote is referring to antibiotics as opposed to antifungals. Antibiotics have been well known
for some time now to cause yeast infections by creating an imbalance in the naturally occurring environment, ie., good bacteria.

fp


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

Cynthia,
I don't know but I'm starting to feel sick about this possibility. Right now, my mood is to throw out the Brewers Yeast, never to use it again.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

fp,
I use a probiotic when the bird is on something like Baytril but now, after reading what you wrote, if a bird has any aspergillus in the system, a probiotic could cause an infection level to rise? So what now? Read the label and make sure that the only active ingredient is a lactobacillus?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I've read the caution as well about antibiotics and Brewer's Yeast--which there
is no doubt in my mind as to the benefits of the product under different circumstances. It makes sense to withold it while nursing a sick bird whose
natural flora isn't up to par, or for a bird on antibiotics.

Cynthia, I wish I could remember where I've read this, it may have even come
up here before. I think I remember you possibly posting on this topic in the past. But I think I subsequently read this elsewhere in addition to seeing it
here.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> fp,
> I use a probiotic when the bird is on something like Baytril but now, after reading what you wrote, if a bird has any aspergillus in the system, a probiotic could cause in infection level to rise?


No, good bacteria does a great job of keeping everything in balance.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Right now, my mood is to throw out the Brewers Yeast, never to use it again.


Don't do that, it does a lot of good as long as the three exceptions fp has listed are followed (that doesn't sound very grammatical, but you get my drift).

I wonder, though, why it doesn't carry a warning.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

Phyl,
Thanks. I just can't fathom how some people don't understand that when a banded or a white pigeon is lost, it's confused and scared and that causes stress and stress causes illness. They drop down from a good diet to bread and other garbage and that radical decline in the quality of their food causes the body to react badly. It's not a big stretch of the imagination to understand that these birds are in trouble from the moment they are lost. Some birds can survive but it depends on their constitutions and where they are. Most don't, not in NYC anyway and my guess is that they don't last as long as a year out in the 'wild'.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

Well, first of all the Brewers Yeast that I use is from a health store and it's for people so that's probably why there is no warning label. Health products are supplements and I've never seen a warning label that people shouldn't take a certain supplement when using antibiotics. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't ever remember having seen a label on a calcium supplement that warns not to take it when using a tetracycline or Cipro. My wife takes Calcium Citrate and Vitamin D3 separately and there is no warning on the label on the stuff that's home here now.

Cynthia, I'm sick over this. I may have caused the deaths of PMV birds by using the tablets. How could I ever look at that product in the same light again? These are feral pigeons, not prima donna homing pigeons so how can anyone say that ferals don't have any aspergillus in their systems? I just can't see my ever using the product again.

This is a vital discussion.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> Phyl,
> Thanks.
> *I just can't fathom how some people don't understand that when a banded or a white pigeon is lost, it's confused and scared and that causes stress and stress causes illness.* They drop down from a good diet to bread and other garbage and that radical decline in the quality of their food causes the body to react badly.
> 
> *It's not a big stretch of the imagination to understand that these birds are in trouble from the moment they are lost. Some birds can survive but it depends on their constitutions and where they are. Most don't, not in NYC anyway and my guess is that they don't last as long as a year out in the 'wild'*.


Pigeonperson,
With all that said, I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you could have even thought about releasing the white pigeon you rescued, let alone actually releasing it. 

Cindy


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

It was a mistake but at that time, I had nobody to bring the bird to and you don't ship in the winter but it was a mistake and a big one.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Pigeonperson

I am very sorry the white pigeon died. Any loss of a pigeon, whether it is a fancy, racer or feral, is hard to deal with.

We have seen an increase in white pigeons over the last 3 years that need help. Most of them are not banded and we wind up keeping them but we have an acre lot with two aviaries. A person such as yourself, who lives in an apartment in NYC can not keep every pigeon they rescue.

We had a member, Dovena, who could not or would not release or find homes for the pigeons she rescued and the situation got totally out of control with so many pigeons she had to abandon her apartment to them. She finally sought some help and thanks to Terry and Phyll and many others found homes for some of them. I don't know the final outcome because she stopped posting.

Some years, we may get in 40 or more pigeons per year to care for. Even with two aviaries we can not keep them all and the majority have to be released. I always hate it more than anything in the world. My nerves are shot by the time we have to let them go. We try to have them as healthy as possible and return to the release site for some time with food and water. 

In your situation, you took this pigeon in, checked him over and then released him back where it appears he thrived until something happened to him. This could just as easily have been a checker or blue bar feral. You fed him and gave him water during this time. I can't condemn you for doing something I may have done also given the same circumstances with which you have to operate. He probably enjoyed being free during this time.

Those of us who rehab on a large scale don't pick and choose which birds we take in - some may be prettier than others but it makes no difference. You do what you have to do to help them recover and then, either keep the ones severely disabled, try to find homes for those that are more vulnerable or release them back to the wild. 

None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes; sometimes it may cost a bird its life, but we try to learn by these mistakes and not make them again.

Don't beat yourself up on this. Go out and find another pigeon to take care of.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

Maggie,
That's one of the nicest and kindest communiques I've ever received and I'm very grateful for that. Thank you very much.
I already found more birds, two more. One bird was hiding behind a set of vertical bars on a window sill. When I flushed her out, her tail was missing and so were the flight feathers. Something had probably grabbed her. This is a hen and she's home with me now. Droppings look good so this will be a success.
The other is a little adult. I guess you would call him a runt. He was very weak and I was able to get him. I'm not sure what the problem is yet but the droppings look terrible so he's on Baytril. 
There's really not much time to beat myself up because there is always something going on.
Again, thank you very much.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

> It's not a big stretch of the imagination to understand that these birds are in trouble from the moment they are lost. Some birds can survive but it depends on their constitutions and where they are. Most don't, not in NYC anyway and my guess is that they don't last as long as a year out in the 'wild'.


 well Im gonna have to have a talk with the semi wild white homers around here and ask them how they are doing it I guess lol


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

pigeonperson said:


> Most people do not train their white pigeons to home........That's the tragedy of the white pigeon.


 According to my orginal mentor, who was WWII pigeon corps, man did not need to train a homing pigeon to find their way home....and a older retired guy in the UPC combine, has not trained for years, and yet his birds find their way home from hundreds of miles. He's not at the top of the combine, but he scores high enough to throw water on the idea that those in the White Dove release business need to "Train", their birds to find home.

Besides, the reality is perhaps a hundred more times the number of pigeons lost during "White Dove" releases, are lost during so called "Training tosses" of racing pigeons. Some of them also happen to be white, but the vast majority are blue....That's the tragedy of the blue based pigeons also.....


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

that was my point too that any lost pigeon is a tragedy, but ummm guess I lost the plot along the way lol


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