# Pigeon with severe trichomoniasis



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I found yesterday a pigeon with trichomoniasis in advanced stage. There are some deposits in mouth, yet the bigger problem seems to be respiratory, it has lot of liquid in respiratory tracts, breath with sound (like a human with runny nose). I'm afraid to not die suffocated.

I gave him metronidazole (an excessive dose, by mistake, around 60 mg).

What can I do to save him?


Here is a movie of him when looking better, now the liquid filled his eyes and is in worse state:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyQC-OtFiuU


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well you couldn't really see anything in his beak from that video. Do you know what his weight is? A youngster can get 25 to 30 ml of Metro daily, and an adult about 50. Is he eating and drinking? If not you need to hand feed him, keep him warm, and give the once daily dose of metronidazole. It could also be more than just canker going on.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Well you couldn't really see anything in his beak from that video. Do you know what his weight is? A youngster can get 25 to 30 ml of Metro daily, and an adult about 50. Is he eating and drinking? If not you need to hand feed him, keep him warm, and give the once daily dose of metronidazole. It could also be more than just canker going on.


Is a baby of around 200 gr. He is not eating by itself but strangely, when I try to feed him, he simulates or tries to take a grain or two, maybe because when I feed him I provoke pains to him, because of deposits in mouth. He drank some when I put him with the beak in water.



Do you know how can I remove the liquid to let him breath easily?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What are you feeding him and how?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I gave him some wheat and barley as long as he seemed to accept (not forcing him), by puting grains in his beak.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You need to get food into him. You can feed him frozen peas which have been defrosted and warmed under warm running water. Hold him on your lap and against your body. Come from behind his head with one hand and clasp the beak on either side. Open the beak with your other hand and place a pea in. Push it over the tongue to the back of his throat and let him close his beak and swallow. If he spits it out, then it wasn't pushed far enough back. Give him 30 to 40 peas for one feeding, and wait till the crop empties before feeding him again. Probably 2 or 3 times a day. Also leave him with some peas so that he will eventually practice picking them up and he will eventually learn to eat. You can leave some seed with him too, if he is drinking on his own. And of course a small dish of water. Keep him warm and give the Metro after a feeding, as it is better to give on a full crop, as it can make them nauseous. If he does vomit anyway, then giving him a couple of drops of Pepto Bismul 30 min. before feeding or medicating will usually hellp to stop it. The peas are easily digested and softer going down.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I have little experience with canker, but from what I read here in PT, the canker growths could be inside the pigeon as well, blocking his food passage. In that case, I don't think giving peas would be a good idea. The peas can get stuck in the blockage. I feel the best would be liquid food, or very small grains if that's not possible. Please correct me if this is wrong. 
Metronidazole has some margin for overdosage, so what you gave (60mg) is not dangerous.
I feel you can continue with the metronidazole for 14 days, and keep the pigeon well fed and warm. Will the right support, he can make it.
All the best!


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you for advices!

Yes, he drinks on his own and he eats barley with apparent wish, when I put it in his beak, even pick some grains by his own. For now, the sounds of gurgling liquid inside him has stopped. He made a decen amount of droppings too, some wattery but several solid.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Often it is better to give the first dose on the high side, than lower it. I would treat for 7 to 10 days and see how he is. The defrosted peas are soft and squishy, and don't usually have a problem with them. They are also easier for someone to feed who is not experienced with feeding.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Often it is better to give the first dose on the high side, than lower it. I would treat for 7 to 10 days and see how he is. The defrosted peas are soft and squishy, and don't usually have a problem with them. They are also easier for someone to feed who is not experienced with feeding.


After few days with no result of amelioration, I came to the conclusion that might be a bacterial infection, so I started to give him antibiotics. From that overdose, or perhaps because he was still young and had not flight experience, he now has not good control of his movement, like he's a little dizzy (someone told me that the overdose affects the liver and trully, the droppings became intense green and more wattery). He flies anyway. Unfortunately, eats little.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The pigeon is starving and the droppings you are seeing are from his internal organs breaking down to feed him. The dizzy movement you described are likely from dehydration and lack of food. I promise you, he will die if you don't hand feed him. It may already be too late but you can try.
The pigeon does have canker infection. That much is evident by the lack of feathers on the neck. Please continue with the canker medicine. He needs the medicine and the food to get well.
We have been saving pigeons for a long time here and you need to listen to us for the sake of the pigeon.

You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. They will nourish and help hydrated the pigeon.

Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-40 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.
The crop is located below the throat and above the keel bone, which is in the center of the bird. When full, it fills like a little balloon and feels lumpy from the peas.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Charis said:


> The pigeon is starving and the droppings you are seeing are from his internal organs breaking down to feed him. The dizzy movement you described are likely from dehydration and lack of food. I promise you, he will die if you don't hand feed him. It may already be too late but you can try.


I'm hand feeding him as much as he accepts (if turns the head back or struggle, I stop). Today I took him to a veterinary who said he doesn't look bad (the video is few days old).



> The pigeon does have canker infection. That much is evident by the lack of feathers on the neck. Please continue with the canker medicine. He needs the medicine and the food to get well.
> We have been saving pigeons for a long time here and you need to listen to us for the sake of the pigeon.


That sounds like useful info. Anyway, apparently metronidazole didn't help him. I will try 2-3 days with antibiotics and if not results either, I will return to metro.



> You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. They will nourish and help hydrated the pigeon.


I will do this.



> Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.


Is not the first pigeon I take care of, there were tens and I know how to feed them (from technical pov).



> You will need to feed 30-40 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.


I think is at least four weeks old and at this age he already can eat seeds, but I will try with peas too, maybe he likes them.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please return to the metro now. With severe infections often you won't notice a difference for 5 days or longer. You can also give the antibiotic. It is common for the canker to cause a bacterial infection.

When you feed the peas, this is a totally new experience for the pigeon and he will resist until he figures out you are making him feel better. The point is this...don't just stop because he may resist. He need the food and hydration. He's too sick for seed, may not know how to eat and the peas will help hydrate him. If the bird hasn't been eating, it doesn't mater how good a vet tech thinks he looks, I promise you...he is not in good shape.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You don't stop feeding him because he is resisting. He doesn't know what he needs. As Charis has mentioned, the green droppings are from starvation. If you don't get enough into him, he will die. One dose of 60 mg. of Metro didn't overdose him. But it does take several days to see the canker getting better. If you stop the Metro, he is going to go downhill fast. You can give both antibiotic and Metro, so do both. I know he can eat seed, but as you said, he isn't eating so you need to feed him the peas. And if you stop because he fights you, then he won't get enough to keep him alive long enough to cure him.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Charis said:


> Please return to the metro now. With severe infections often you won't notice a difference for 5 days or longer. You can also give the antibiotic. It is common for the canker to cause a bacterial infection.


This is the first night he doesn't have the eyelids stuck from the liquid coming from inside (previous morning, he couldn't open his eyes, I had to moisten them). I think what he has is mycoplasmosis or maybe a combination between mycoplamosis and trichomoniasis, although only in first day he had some small deposits in mouth. 



> When you feed the peas, this is a totally new experience for the pigeon and he will resist until he figures out you are making him feel better. The point is this...don't just stop because he may resist. He need the food and hydration. He's too sick for seed, may not know how to eat and the peas will help hydrate him. If the bird hasn't been eating, it doesn't mater how good a vet tech thinks he looks, I promise you...he is not in good shape.


I feed him peas few hours ago and he didn't seem enchanted. He drank some water and ate barley both given by me and on its own. He seem to like barley. He's not emaciated but has a normal weight.




Jay3 said:


> You don't stop feeding him because he is resisting. He doesn't know what he needs. As Charis has mentioned, the green droppings are from starvation. If you don't get enough into him, he will die. One dose of 60 mg. of Metro didn't overdose him. But it does take several days to see the canker getting better. If you stop the Metro, he is going to go downhill fast. You can give both antibiotic and Metro, so do both. I know he can eat seed, but as you said, he isn't eating so you need to feed him the peas. And if you stop because he fights you, then he won't get enough to keep him alive long enough to cure him.


I'm reluctant to feed him forcedly as I killed another pigeon by trying to forcedly give him water.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Giving water is different. If you send it down the wrong pipe, you will aspirate the bird.
He doesn't have to be enchanted. He just needs to get enough food into him, which you won't do by feeding barley. His droppings turned intense green. That is from starvation. He also has canker. You came on here and asked for help. But you have done nothing but argue about the advice we have given you. So since you seem to know so much more, than why ask for help? Why not just take care of him yourself?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Giving water is different. If you send it down the wrong pipe, you will aspirate the bird.
> He doesn't have to be enchanted. He just needs to get enough food into him, which you won't do by feeding barley. His droppings turned intense green. That is from starvation. He also has canker. You came on here and asked for help. But you have done nothing but argue about the advice we have given you. So since you seem to know so much more, than why ask for help? Why not just take care of him yourself?


I'm starting to realize that you, who answered me on this thread, are right. I gave him some 20 peas and he also ate by his own some barley. The droppings have no more that lively color, some were solid, as at a healthy bird. Unfortunately, his respiratory problems advanced, sometimes he opens the mouth like he has no air. I started giving him again metronidazole.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Please give the Metro for another 7 days at least and see how he does. You can't start it and stop it, because that allows the trichomonads to get stronger. Okay?And keep him warm.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi Andrei, I saw your post and as I have some experience with canker in pigeons I want to tell you that 60mg of Metronidazole it is not overdosed in severe cases of canker (trichomoniasis). You must start again giving Metronidazole. 
In my opinion it is a severe cases of canker but besides it can also be a bacterial infection, mycoplasmosis can be as you said. Please you need to start again Metronidazole, you have to give 30 mg per day but not in a single dose, give 15 mg of Metronidazole every 12 hours. The antibiotic should use Enrofloxacin, go to any veterinary clinic and buy Enrofloxacin 5mg pills and immediately started giving one tablet (5mg) every 12 hours.

Dana


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Vulturescu said:


> Hi Andrei, I saw your post and as I have some experience with canker in pigeons I want to tell you that 60mg of Metronidazole it is not overdosed in severe cases of canker (trichomoniasis). You must start again giving Metronidazole.
> In my opinion it is a severe cases of canker but besides it can also be a bacterial infection, mycoplasmosis can be as you said. Please you need to start again Metronidazole, you have to give 30 mg per day but not in a single dose, give 15 mg of Metronidazole every 12 hours. The antibiotic should use Enrofloxacin, go to any veterinary clinic and buy Enrofloxacin 5mg pills and immediately started giving one tablet (5mg) every 12 hours.
> Dana


I think that an overdose of metro is dangerous, I've read on the websites of some bird veterinaries that can lead to uncoordination and death and trully the pigeon looked uncoordinated afterward and in a bad condition. Meicaments are toxic things, should be used with prudence and I wasn't enough aware of this. It still didn't recovered from the effect of the overdose but his respiratory problem for moment looks like is going well. He received a lincomycin injection and I continued with small doses of metronidazole, probably around the quantity you say.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Good Grief! PLEASE listen to these people. They know what they are talking about! 
If you are not willing to do so, to help this bird they way it needs to be helped, PLEASE find someone else who is knowledgeable to take over the care.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I think that an overdose of metro is dangerous, I've read on the websites of some bird veterinaries that can lead to uncoordination and death and trully the pigeon looked uncoordinated afterward and in a bad condition. Meicaments are toxic things, should be used with prudence and I wasn't enough aware of this. It still didn't recovered from the effect of the overdose but his respiratory problem for moment looks like is going well. He received a lincomycin injection and I continued with small doses of metronidazole, probably around the quantity you say.



60 mg is not an overdose. Birds are ofter started on a double dose for the first dose. If he is having problems, it isn't from the Metro. He has something else going on. By giving lesser doses, all you are doing is helping to make the trich stronger, and build up a resistance to the drug. You should be giving the 30 mg a day, in one dose. You don't break it up. You are not helping him by believing that you know what is wrong. While you are blaming the metro, and cutting back on it, and not treating with the enrofloxacyn, you are allowing him to get sicker and weaker. THE AMOUNT OF METRO YOU GAVE HIM DID NOT OVER DOSE THE BIRD!


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

It breaks my heart even more when a bird gets in the hands of a person who does not listen what to do. Andrei, most people who reply to this forum have direct experience with birds and we all have the interest to help these birds and not wasting time here. So please once again to listen our advised. 
On the internet you can find many opinions about doses and how bad drugs are, but in this case you have nothing to worry about.
Please do what you have to do for this little soul and save her life. A single Lincomycin injection will not help. He needs antibiotic for several days, go and buy some Enrofloxacin at any veterinary clinic and continues with Metronidazole 30 mg per day.

Dana


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

Jay and charis are the best in this Website if you are not willing to do what they say then you are risking the pigeon's life!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Abdulbaki said:


> Jay and charis are the best in this Website if you are not willing to do what they say then you are risking the pigeon's life!!




I'm afraid I can not claim that honor, but thank you for the compliment. Charis on the other hand has many, many years of experience and is usually right on. But I do know canker, as I have dealt with that often enough. And know that he was not over dosed on the Metro. Also that the other symptoms are not from that drug, and need to be addressed before he is so sick that he can't be helped. You have made up your mind that he isn't needing meds for those symptoms, as you believe it to be from the Metro. You are going to let him die because of your beliefs.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Been away and trying to catch up!
AndreiS, Charis and Jay3 are correct!! Bright Green droppings = the bird is starving.
60mg of metronidazole IS NOT an overdose. I give my adults 1/4 of a 250mg pill (62.5mg), and babies get half of that (32.50mg) ONCE A DAY!
And they must stay on metro for 10-14 days. It wouldn't hurt to put him on Enrofloxacin (baytril) also in case of a bacterial infection. But he has to be fed enough to keep him hydrated. Enough peas will do that. You don't need to force feed water......that is dangerous. But keep water available for him to drink on his own.
Metronidazole has a wide safety margin and it usually takes 3-5 days to start breaking up the canker (trich), then you continue it for 10-14 days.
Please listen if you want to save this bird!


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm doing what are saying, giving around 30 mg of metro and antibiotics: Three lincomycin injections in htree days and doxycyline (this read is proper for mycoplasmosis).



The bird eats by its own (wheat and barle), has normal droppings, the problems are that gurgling sound inside and being weak and dizzy.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Andrei, can you tell us please what dose amounts of Lincomycin you used for injections (how many mg per body weight)? 
Also the dose amount (mg), method of giving, and how often you give Doxycycline? 

Dana


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

*Very Urgent!*

The state of pigeon worsened, he's making that sound and inside his mouth is much viscous transparent liquid apparently coming from the roof of the mouth (from hole communicating with the nose). I don't know what this can be. 



Vulturescu: I don't give myself the Lincomycin, I'm taking the bird to a veterinary who used it previously on some other birds brought by me and saved them. He said was giving them 0.2 ml. Linco-Spectin at one injection. Doxycyline: I know that must be put 1 mg / l drink water and I know that on average a pigeon drinks 30 ml daily, so I'm puting what I thinks is the 30th part of a mg of Doxycyline in 2-3 ml of water and put that water in his crop with a tube.


Btw, if you didnt know that, the absorbtion of tetracyclines and metronidazole is fastened by Vitamin C by four times. I found that on an article by doctor Tudoran.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think all he needed was treatment for canker, which could cause all this if left untreated. Going back and forth and adding different drugs, and starting and stopping Metro treatment, isn't helping him.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

I do not understand why you came to this forum to ask for help if you do not want to hear any advice. 
Please, if you want to give him a second chance at life let's meet tomorrow morning and I'll take the bird in my care.

Dana


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Vulturescu said:


> I do not understand why you came to this forum to ask for help if you do not want to hear any advice.
> Please, if you want to give him a second chance at life let's meet tomorrow morning and I'll take the bird in my care.
> 
> Dana


I asked about some symtpoms or solutions that may be familar to others and I'm not going to apply the advices I received without question. 


I neither trust veterinary doctors because their diagnoses are often fancy. Only laboratory examination of droppings and saliva can securely establish the kind of infestation but they're a little expensive for me at the moment.


And sorry but I don't trust your experience either, especially after seeing yourself asking advices on a Romanian forum and explaining you have not clue what to do because you're not a breeder, just an ocasional picker of sick birds or chicks like me. That doesn't mean I don't trust your good intentions.


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

His andries I certainly find your last Comment, Offensive!
The guys in the Forum already gave you advices, and you keep repeting your arguements over and over, if you know what you do and the vet nor they are giving you false Advices and trying to over-dose your birds! THEN WHY BOTHER ASKING???
and finally you claimed that the bird's health worsened thats all because of YOUR Opinions about everything!
I am sorry for critisizing but hey I am not experienced either!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Actually...Vlutarescu has been around here for a while and I would differ with your opinion. It's wise to ask for help if you are questioning. It's wise to take the advise of experienced rehabbers. Being a breeder has nothing to do with it. Breeders aren't rehabbers and many don't have good luck with sick birds.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Andrei, you got me confused with someone else, I never expaining on a romanian forum that I have not clue what to do because I am not a breeder!!!

Thanks Charis for your post, yes breeders aren't rehabbers and being a breeder has nothing to do with rehabbers. I'm a rehabbers for nearly three years, actually even right now I have two birds with severe canker, like your pigeon and both respond very well to Metronidazole and Enrofloxacin.

I asked for help on a local romanian forum three or four years ago when no one knew what advice to give me, in fact the only advice was to break her neck to the bird, to kill faster. So in this way I found Pigeon Talk where I met great people, people who really love birds and do everything possible to save their life. I learned from them and thank them for shared their knowledge with me and I would never give advice if I have not gone through this experience.

You came here to ask for advice, why are you searching for advice if you only want to argue. 
I'm sorry that this bird had the misfortune to be found by you! Could have been saved if you listen to these people...

Anyway, I do not want to argue with you and I would still be happy to take care of this bird.


Dana


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

Vulturescu said:


> Andrei, you got me confused with someone else, I never expaining on a romanian forum that I have not clue what to do because I am not a breeder!!!
> 
> Thanks Charis for your post, yes breeders aren't rehabbers and being a breeder has nothing to do with rehabbers. I'm a rehabbers for nearly three years, actually even right now I have two birds with severe canker, like your pigeon and both respond very well to Metronidazole and Enrofloxacin.
> 
> ...


Well said


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If anybody interested, the bird is going well, eats a lot, is playing sometimes, droppings are almost perfect. The gurgling liquid is heard sometimes inside but rarely and slighlty. I'm giving him metro and Doxycycline because this is indicated at respiratory infections and is less toxic as other antibiotics.


Dana, sorry if I sounded offensive. I think you're a good and dedicated person and with some experience, but that doesn't mean I will follow any advice. What I'm seeking on forum and I think anybody else should seek in first stance, is to form a personal base of knowledge that will help understand better how microorganisms affect birds and the better methodes to somecounteract them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad he is doing well. Hope you have pulled any calcium, as it will bind to Doxy and make it less effective. We have very hard water here, which contains calcium, so I even switch to distilled water with Doxy.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Glad he is doing well. Hope you have pulled any calcium, as it will bind to Doxy and make it less effective. We have very hard water here, which contains calcium, so I even switch to distilled water with Doxy.


I don't give grit during treatment. Also, as I said, I add Vitamin C solution which increases four times the effect (absorbtion) of Doxy and also of the Metro.

I think it has that Mycoplasmosis or even Ornitosis, because I felt something in my lungs as I felt when I had another pigeon with Ornitosis. I'm very healthy and haven't had any illness else than colds for many years (because of the vegan diet, I presume), so is possible to have this light infection transmitted from the bird.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The pigeon stopped having thoe symptoms (gurgling sound inside). Do you think I should stop medication or continue few days more? 

He eats a lot (I would say too much), the droppings are compact, is energetical, flies a lot.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you treat, you need to finish treatment, otherwise, your are just building an immunity in the bacteria or whatever you are treating for. How long have you treated now, and with what. Don't remember.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I gave form for like 8 days Metronidazole and Doxycycline.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

If it was severe, I would go at least 10-14 days. Treatment time is usually 7-14 days.
Glad to hear he's doing better.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well canker for me is usually gone in 7 to 10 days, but I have had to go 14 days on occasion.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Although the gurgling sound was gone, some symptoms remained: liquid from nostrils, wattery eyes and because I made a pause in medication (thus allowing the posibility of effective laboratory analyses), I took the pigeon to a good parasitologist veterinary (if Dana is interested and doesn't already know him - dr. Băcescu from the Veterinary Faculty, it makes consultations at a clinic on Mașina de Pâine street).

The analyses of droppings shown that he has tricho and a bacterial respiratory infection, something with "mono", I don't remember the name of the disease.


The doctor prescribed to continue with Metronidazole and for the baterial infection - Enrofloxacin.


Does somebody know if Enrofloxacin, similarly to Doxycycline, is being bound by grit, so I have to avoid giving it (grit) to pigeon?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. You should pull the grit, and anything else with calcium. It's the calcium that binds to it.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

AndreiS said:


> Although the gurgling sound was gone, some symptoms remained: liquid from nostrils, wattery eyes and because I made a pause in medication (thus allowing the posibility of effective laboratory analyses), I took the pigeon to a good parasitologist veterinary (if Dana is interested and doesn't already know him - dr. Băcescu from the Veterinary Faculty, it makes consultations at a clinic on Mașina de Pâine street).
> 
> The analyses of droppings shown that he has tricho and a bacterial respiratory infection, something with "mono", I don't remember the name of the disease.
> 
> ...


Enrofloxacin (baytril) is not in the 'cycline' family (tetracycline, doxycycline). No need to pull the grit. You can if you want, but its not necessary.
Metro and baytril work excellent together.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Physicians Desk Reference pg 890, summarized briefly and simply:

Concurrent administration of enrofloxacin (Baytril), ciprofloxacin, marbofloxacin or other antibiotics in this class with food or products containing calcium, iron, zinc, Carafate (sucrylfate) or with antacids, which may substantially decrease its absorption, resulting in serum and urine levels considerably lower than desired.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/BoulderRats/HVt7KD3DdnM/ctgT80VPQrIJ

Interactions

Compounds that contain metal cations (e.g., aluminum, calcium, iron, magnesium) may reduce the absorption of some quinolone-class drugs from the intestinal tract. Concomitant therapy with other drugs that are metabolized in the liver may reduce the clearance rates of the quinolone and the other drug.
http://www.drugs.com/vet/baytril-tablets-15-mg-can.htmlDrug


So why not avoid it?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you for answers!


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I don't know what to do. As you can see, there are more than 20 days (the thread is opened on 16th August) an pigeon's illness doesn't step back. If I don't give him medicines, he start to have liquid on nostrils, wattery eyes.


Now when I close my ear to his body, I hear a sound of the respiration inside that is not normal.

As I said, I took him to a parasitologist who took samples from droppings an saliva and established he has tricho and a rspiratory bacterial infection, some term starting with "mono", I supose something related to mycoplasmosis.


I keep giving him doxycycline but I'm afraid the bacteria has became immune. The doctor prescribed enrofloxacine but when giving it, the symptoms agravated.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Without a culture done, it's impossible to know exactly what drug will work. And if mycoplama, and there has been a lot of damage, sometimes you can never totally clear it. It works for a while, then returns unfortunately. I don't know if this is the case with your bird. How long did you treat for canker, with what and for how long?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Without a culture done, it's impossible to know exactly what drug will work. And if mycoplama, and there has been a lot of damage, sometimes you can never totally clear it. It works for a while, then returns unfortunately. I don't know if this is the case with your bird. How long did you treat for canker, with what and for how long?


It have been done a culture, I don't know if dioctor's answer was based on its results or he will phone me one more time later (like 7 days after, as he did at the fieldfare). The doctor told me but I forgot. He phoned me three days after the samples were taken.

For canker I treated him like 14 days, wirth an uncounted pause of 2 days.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Did you pull all calcium while treating with the Doxy? We have hard water here, so I even use distilled water during treatment, as the water contains calcium.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Did you pull all calcium while treating with the Doxy? We have hard water here, so I even use distilled water during treatment, as the water contains calcium.


Yes, I pulled all the calcium and also I added Vitamin C solution in medication to increase the absorbtion level. 




Now, for more than 24 hours the symptoms didn't show which is great. 



The pigeon is very docile, I keep him in a room with the windows open wide and he doesn't go. I even put him on window's frame and didn't fly. He knows that is better for him to stay at me. But when I took him outside, he tries to fly so I keep him in a leash. 



I made the mistake with other pigeons to release them outside when they would prefered to remain at home an they didn't find the way back home. At three other pigeons I proceeded as with this one: left them inside with open window so if they want they can go and come back and they understood this, for several months they were leaving in the morning and coming back to sleep inside in the evening.


I'm saying these as an idea for those who want to keep the released pigeons around their home, while not being breeders.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why would you keep him in a room with open windows, when by doing so, you are taking the chance of him taking off out the window? He isn't well. If he takes off, you can't help him, and his chances are not good at all.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Why would you keep him in a room with open windows, when by doing so, you are taking the chance of him taking off out the window? He isn't well. If he takes off, you can't help him, and his chances are not good at all.


I stopped the treatment because was already too long so I can't help him with anything but food and home.


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