# all my birds are getting a strange sickness- help needed



## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I hatched some button quail from eggs a few weeks back and last week one of them was fluffed up and bubbling a clear liquid out of it's mouth. I thought it was salt toxicity and treated it for that.. It still ate and drank just remained fluffed up through the week and sometimes twitched it's head like something was in it's mouth or something.. Finally yesterday it died... Now the other quail are starting to do a little head twitch (sometimes flicking out a clear liquid/water) and starting to fluff up. 

Somebody told me to get some sulmet and treat the quails with this, which I started today. And now one of my pigeons is acting fluffed up, lethargic and moving his beak a lot like something is in his mouth. I've been treating the quail with sulmet since yesterday. 

Should I add some sulmet to the pigeons water? Do they need an antibiotic? If anyone has any idea what this sickness is, please post. I'm stumped.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> And now one of my pigeons is acting fluffed up, lethargic and moving his beak a lot like something is in his mouth. I've been treating the quail with sulmet since yesterday.


Could be this pigeon is open mouth breathing, how many breaths a minute is he taking, in/out or up/down count as one breath. If it were me, I would at least start this one one the Sulmet, isolate him from the rest, start a thorough disinfection program (1 part bleach to 9 parts water, careful this off gases chlorine gas, so you will have to move them around a bit to make sure they don't breath the fumes). How are you mixing the Sulmet?

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sulmet is an antibioitc... not sure if it will work well or not as you do not know what you have going on.. I would look at this symptom checker and which may let you guess a bit better if you can not get a vet involved.. when you get some guesses use the med for that condition..not all antibiotics are alike. here is the link.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't think so. He just seems to be fidgeting with his beak..It's hard to explain. I will see about the breaths per minute.

Can I treat all of them with sulmet? There's two 5 or 6 week old squeakers in there as well so i'm not sure if they can have it? 
I have liquid sulmet. Been following the directions for poultry- putting in 2 tablespoons of sulmet per gallon of water.


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Spirit Wings- Everyone I talk to is absolutely stumped at what they could have. 
I went through that list last night and nothing came close.. An experienced quail breeder told me to start them on sulmet. I was understanding that sulmet is an antibacterial and not an antibiotic?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> I don't think so. He just seems to be fidgeting with his beak..It's hard to explain. I will see about the breaths per minute.
> 
> Can I treat all of them with sulmet? There's two 5 or 6 week old squeakers in there as well so i'm not sure if they can have it?
> I have liquid sulmet. Been following the directions for poultry- putting in 2 tablespoons of sulmet per gallon of water.


OK, good, but best still best to check his breathing for now. The sulfa antibiotics, more than some others, are better choices for young birds, but at 5-6 weeks old, being a juvenile, I myself would consider them them more toward an adult than a squab, so yes, if needed they could safely have the Sulmet. Just wanted to check if you were mixing it right, and you are. 

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

"An antibacterial is an agent that is active against bacteria only. 

Antibiotic is a collective term for various agents that are active against microorganisms.The term includes various classes of agents like antivirals, antifungals, antibacterials, antiamoebics etc ...."


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Spirit Wings- Everyone I talk to is absolutely stumped at what they could have.
> I went through that list last night and nothing came close.. An experienced quail breeder told me to start them on sulmet. I was understanding that sulmet is an antibacterial and not an antibiotic?


Sulmet is an antibiotic, contains Sodium Sulfamethazine (one of the three sulfas that are combined in the Triple-Sulfa you picked up for your hawk attacked bird). Spirit wing makes a point, as to not knowing what is going on, but in these cases, a good deal of the time it is either something viral or something bacterial, if viral, not much you can do, but offer good support and guard against secondary bacterial issues. If bacterial, sometimes there is not a lot of time to get treatment started, sulfas are a pretty decent choice for many bacterial issues (the best being the one I mentioned when you asked about a few meds to keep around, Trimethoprim/Sulfa).

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok, thank you. With that being said.. Should I just treat all my pigeons with the sulmet just in case they are starting to get it and haven't started showing symptoms yet? Thanks for all your help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Ok, thank you. With that being said.. Should I just treat all my pigeons with the sulmet just in case they are starting to get it and haven't started showing symptoms yet? Thanks for all your help!


Without them showing symptoms this decision is one you will have to make based on what you feel comfortable with doing. I can tell you what I personally would do, I would clean the heck out of EVERYTHING, isolate the male currently showing symptoms and, and literally take it hour to hour and not day to day. What I mean is, that I would be spending a good deal of time with them over the next few days, seeing them every few hours and looking for a second bird showing symptoms, if one did, then I would treat them all. That being said, the Sulmet is a safe and effective medicine and I don't see any harm in starting treatment with them all if you feel safer doing this.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok thank you. Thanks for all your help! Ever since the hawk attack it seems like all the animals have gotten some strange problem! Or maybe i'm just going crazy... thank you again!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

See if you can smell their breath...get your Nose right up against their little Beaks, and, let us know if any odor.

This sounds to me like what one would expect from a Candida or Yeast infection in the Crops, and, if liquids are seen bubbling at the Beak or dripping out, you have a very serious problem on your hands.

If this is what it is, or, some of what it is, you would want to get some 'Medistatin', and, we can all brainstorm a way to get it in to the little Quails, either by leting them drink it, or, sprinkling it on their Foods, or both.

It does taste good, so, they would not be put off by the flavor.


But, before any of that, let us know if any odor to their Breath.

And, continue to post daily fresh poop/urate images.



Phil
Lv


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I'll go check that..Did you see the photos I uploaded in the non pigeon emergency section? Could a yeast infection travel to the pigeon loft?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I do not believe that either Yeast or Candida infections would be contageous.

But, if the underlieing conditions in which such infections have arisen, characterize the wider situation in which other Birds are housed and fed and so on, any number of the other Birds could independently come up with similar problems/infections/illness.

Have you tasted the food you had the Quail on, to see if it tastes alright?

Try some, chew it up thoroughly, savor it, and see.


Post some more images, from to-day, of the Quails.

Do they seem depressed? Wilty? 

Are their little Vents clean?


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Well new update. My chicken has a runny nose. She's always been an extremely healthy bird. Could this be related? 
I will try their food. I actually switched them to some chicken starter grow with hard boiled egg for extra protein to see if their new (slowly introduced) adult food could of been bad or something. 
They don't seem depressed or anything. Maybe one or two are a little more quieter than usual. Vents are clean.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Well new update. My chicken has a runny nose. She's always been an extremely healthy bird. Could this be related?
> I will try their food. I actually switched them to some chicken starter grow with hard boiled egg for extra protein to see if their new (slowly introduced) adult food could of been bad or something.
> They don't seem depressed or anything. Maybe one or two are a little more quieter than usual. Vents are clean.


CCG, I don't believe a lot in coincidences, your previously healthy chicken, turning up with a runny nose, would be enough now for me to start all of your birds on the Sulmet. Please do make sure you clean and disinfect everything, perches, nest boxes, floors, walls, dishes, feeders, throw away any grit or pick-pots, be real thorough.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Runny Nose' is cause-enough to indeed rigorously clean and disinfect everything.


With the Quail - the liquid you were mentioning, was it coming from their Nostrils? Or...coming from their Beaks' openings/edges?


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

everyone is now on sulmet. everyone but the indoor cockatiel and a baby chicken who i'm not sure is old enough for sulmet..
the quails beaks did not smell unusual or anything like that. the liquid was coming out of their beak.


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

and i will be cleaning everything in the morning. i did disinfect all the feeders and waterers today though


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> and i will be cleaning everything in the morning. i did disinfect all the feeders and waterers today though


One of things people forget about is their shoes, either have a pair of shoes only for the bird's area, or step into a shoe soak, or spray the bottom of any shoes with the 1:9 bleach/water solution.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

could it be possible the pigeon has sour crop or something? i went to feed them this morning and he just seemed lethargic and picked at the food but didn't really eat it. he keeps shaking his head like something is in his throat or beak and he's trying to get it out.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> could it be possible the pigeon has sour crop or something? i went to feed them this morning and he just seemed lethargic and picked at the food but didn't really eat it. he keeps shaking his head like something is in his throat or beak and he's trying to get it out.


Anything is possible, but with with the issues with your other birds, I would be thinking that whatever is affecting him is related. They can have a few issues at once, best give him a good look over. Get him wrapped in a small towel open up him mouth and take a good whiff to see if there are any "sour" or off smells, next get a small penlight and have good look down his throat and see if there are any swellings, nodules or growths. It may be worthwhile, since this guy is isolated and the worse off to use the Triple-Sulfa you have to do individual dosing for him of an antibiotic (especially if he is not drinking well, see below). 

If he is of good body weight/mass, I don't really worry of they go off their feed while the meds get a chance to start to work, but he has to remain well hydrated, so make sure he is drinking well, if not you will have to help him with hydration.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

i'll check him out really well.
the chicken is doing good today, no runny nose. and the quail are perking up, not fluffed up very much and eating and drinking normally. no more fluid discharge from their beaks that i can see. they just sometimes act like peanut butter is stuck in their beaks or something, it's really weird. but hopefully this means the sulmet is working!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> i'll check him out really well.
> the chicken is doing good today, no runny nose. and the quail are perking up, not fluffed up very much and eating and drinking normally. no more fluid discharge from their beaks that i can see. they just sometimes act like peanut butter is stuck in their beaks or something, it's really weird. but hopefully this means the sulmet is working!


Glad there seems to have been an immediate response to the Sulmet treatment. Yes, please do give him a good going over and also make sure he is drinking well (or doing individual dosing) to make sure we get some meds into system as well.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Looked him over, he looks perfectly healthy. There was an EXTREMELY tiny yellow dot in the back of his throat, however.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Looked him over, he looks perfectly healthy. There was an EXTREMELY tiny yellow dot in the back of his throat, however.


OK, here's the thing, when these guys get infections their immune systems response in to produce cells to fight the infection, these spent cells can look similar in bacterial infections and also in protozoal infections (canker) they can get, which we can see well when in the throat/mouth area. That being said, I myself, after seeing this yellow nodule, would add a second medicine to his treatment called Metronidazole (another of the three meds I suggested you have on hand) and treat with this medicine along with the sulfa. You can most likely get this med from the same tropical fish store you picked up the Triple-Sulfa from, look for Metroplex by Seachem. There are others, but I know for certain this particular med is 100% Metronidazole, and this what you will need.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok how much do I give them?? 
Also, quite a few of the pigeons are doing this beak thing now.. They aren't struggling to breathe.. The just keep opening and closing their beaks. It definitely isn't normal for them, though.


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

And by treating it along with the sulfa do you mean the sulmet or the triple sulfa?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi citycowgirl,


Please post some images of these various Birds, and, of their fresh poops.


Make sure the poop image for the Pigeon in question is from that individual.


Did you move affliced Birds into individual Cages for observation?


Phil
Lv


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Right now, all of the pigeons are still in their cage together.. I am trying to keep all the possibly sick birds away from my baby chickens and indoor birds so i'm running out of safe places to keep them... Here is a pic of the pigeon. His breathing is also getting more noticeable if I watch him carefully..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> And by treating it along with the sulfa do you mean the sulmet or the triple sulfa?


Right now, I would probably individual dose the birds showing any symptoms with the Triple-Sulfa, the rest, Sulmet water is OK for present. I am running out, but go get the Metronidazole and I'll help you with how to dose it in a few hours.

Images would be good, as Phil asked for.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok will do. I attached a picture on my previous post. Thank you


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

While at the tropical fish stores, see if the have a med called Maracyn-TC (Mardel Tetracycline 250mg capsules), if they do, pick up a pack.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

We also need images showing the poops/urates of the Pigeon in question...


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

sorry been at work all day, ill get to it! i'm actually thinking its gapeworms. see the vid of the bird. he does the thing at 5 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbOlwyYSzY
and all the birds do this at least once every 5 minutes. the video doesn't really do it justice..it is a lot more noticable than that usually. they also do a little head shaking thing. starting to feel thin even though they've been eating. and keep yawning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Could be...'Gapeworms' with the Pigeon.

But would the Quail have had enough time for such a condition to develop with them?

There are quite a few things which can have a Pigeon making small or unusual mouth/head/neck movements...but not likely very many things which would cause liquids to be coming out of their Beaks or Nasal passages.


In any of these conditions though, when trying to get some idea of what something might be, daily poop/urate images, and, some idea of how many in 24 Hours, any Bird in question is making, can be very important.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> sorry been at work all day, ill get to it! i'm actually thinking its gapeworms. see the vid of the bird. he does the thing at 5 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbOlwyYSzY
> and all the birds do this at least once every 5 minutes. the video doesn't really do it justice..it is a lot more noticable than that usually. they also do a little head shaking thing. starting to feel thin even though they've been eating. and keep yawning.


Gapeworms received this name because they live inside the trachea, where they block and restrict normal respiration and then the bird starts to "gape" for air from this (I do not see "gaping" taking place), the treatment would be the third of the three medicines I recommended having on hand Ivermectin. I don't recall ever reading about a confirmed case of this infection on this forum since I have been around, and again while anything is possible, but I don't suspect that's what the problem is here. Did you manage to locate the Metronidazole and the Tetracycline? Did you count breaths per minute yet?

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

The pigeon has not had any liquid coming out of his mouth.. only a lot of yawning, beak moving and head twitching. I've been trying to borrow a cage from my friend to put the pigeon in as my other isolation cage has button quail in it! I've been monitoring the poop around the cage, though, and all looks normal. Hopefully i'll have another cage by morning, I understand how important the poop pictures are!
As crazy as it may sound I really think this could be the problem.. Would it be safe to medicate them for this while they are on sulmet? 
Karyn- Unfortunately no, none around here have it.. Actually one store said one of them is banned in California? Weird.

I really appreciate the help! Thank you, both


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Oh my gosh! I forgot to count his breaths per minute. He is sleeping now..Should I go do i anyways?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Oh my gosh! I forgot to count his breaths per minute. He is sleeping now..Should I go do i anyways?


Here is my second post to this thread are instructions:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=575884&postcount=2

Yes, you could treat for gapeworms while on Sulmet, it would also give simultaneous treatment for GI worms as well, you would need to pickup some Ivermectin 1%.

I don't believe what you were told is the truth, a few weeks ago we had a member up near SF pick some up, another member in Toronto was told the same thing (they didn't have it and wanted to sell her something different) but picked some up at another local store, make a few calls and ask for Metroplex Metronidazole by Seachem. I wanted you to also pick up the tetracycline because although the sulfas are pretty good at a number of infections there are a few tetracyclines are better for, that can cause respiratory issues and the two meds can be combined to broaden the circle for pathogens covered.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I think i'll start with ivermectin tomorrow morning then. 
I'll call around for the metroplex metronidazole but i'm also having a hard time finding the bird sulfa besides online stores. 
his breath rate was around 30 a minute. does that sound right? he was squirming a lot and just woke up. i could try again.
thank you so much for your help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> I think i'll start with ivermectin tomorrow morning then.
> I'll call around for the metroplex metronidazole but i'm also having a hard time finding the bird sulfa besides online stores.
> his breath rate was around 30 a minute. does that sound right? he was squirming a lot and just woke up. i could try again.
> thank you so much for your help!


The breaths are you counted, 30 breaths, is normal (anywhere from 28-32 breaths a minute is a normal range, and would point to no blockage of the trachea), so he is not at all struggling for air at present. Do you already have the 1% Ivermectin?... the dose is going to be 2 drops down his throat, that's all, be careful dosing this. The Bird-Sulfa most likely will have to be bought on-line, there are lots of places that carry it, I would be surprised if you found it in a local store.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I'll be getting the ivermectin this morning.. Have you heard of putting drops on the back of their necks?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> I'll be getting the ivermectin this morning.. Have you heard of putting drops on the back of their necks?


Yes, you can do this, but most do this for external parasites (although it will be absorbed by the body for internal as well) and instead give a drop or two orally, down the throat, when we are treating for GI worms.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok, and do I retreat it after the first time?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Ok, and do I retreat it after the first time?


You will do this once only, then in 12-14 days repeat. Please do try and get the Metronidazole and the Tetracycline today as well, as IMO, these are the meds I would be more inclined to be treating with.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Sorry if I missed it but what exactly is the Tetracycline? Isn't that for humans?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Sorry if I missed it but what exactly is the Tetracycline? Isn't that for humans?


CCG, a great many of the medicines we use to treat our birds are also used, and originated, for the treatment of humans, so yes, tetracyclines are used for humans, but also for birds. (for fish, Maracyn-TC, Mardel Tetracycline 250mg capsules).

Tetracycline, and other members in that family of antibiotics, are first choice drugs for a few infections that can cause respiratory problems in birds (that would be a better choice than a sulfa medicine). So, because it's not possible for you to take your guys to the vets right now, where tests could be run to try and identify what the source of illness may be. We have to, IMO, do the best we can to cast as big, and as safe and effective a net as we can in treatment, and hope in do this, what is causing the illness is sensitive to the treatment regimen be instituted.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Duramycin 10 has tertacycline in it. Would that work?
Also, I'm trying to figure out what to do for my poor little quail. I'm having a hard time finding button quail resources. Would you happen to know the weight/dosage ratio for the wormer? Maybe they can have a tiny bit of that.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Duramycin 10 has tertacycline in it. Would that work?


Yes, Duramycin 10 can absolutely work. A few issues with Duramycin 10 is that there is less than a 10% concentration of tetracycline in the Duramycin 10 and it is meant to be mixed in water to be used. If for any reason you wanted to do individual dosing of a bird, this low concentration would make things problematic. Plus, IMO, the best way to treat an ill bird is individual dosing as this way you know they received the exact dose they should, and not having to hope they are drinking well to get medicated. The tetracycline capsules are 100% tetracycline and would make individual dosing easier and can also be used for water treatment as well. Tetracycline and sulfas can be used together, in fact there are already a few premixed medicines out there that include both of these meds together.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Where can I find tetracycline capsules? I've noticed all the birds are eating and drinking plenty so treated them all through their water could be done.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Duramycin 10 has tertacycline in it. Would that work?
> Also, I'm trying to figure out what to do for my poor little quail. I'm having a hard time finding button quail resources. Would you happen to know the weight/dosage ratio for the wormer? Maybe they can have a tiny bit of that.


Just about all direct dosing for meds in birds in weight dependent (with species being an additional factor), if you know the weight of the quail, I can try and help you with this.

CCW, I just wanted to mention again that for all of these birds to have simultaneous symptoms at once, IMHO, does not point to a parasitic infection, but is more indicative of something bacterial, viral or even possibly mycotic in nature.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Where can I find tetracycline capsules? I've noticed all the birds are eating and drinking plenty so treated them all through their water could be done.


Where you got the Triple-Sulfa, tropical fish stores. The Maracyn-TC, Mardel Tetracycline 250mg capsules are widely distributed, but 250mg tetracycline capsules are a fairly common dose packaging for fish, so they could come from another company, as long as they were 100% tetracycline.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I understand about the symptoms. They have had contact with each others poop unfortunately which makes me think that the carrier could of possibly given worms (if they have them) to the other birds. Through all my research i've done on all their symptoms gapeworms seems to be the closest match. Or maybe they have some sort of viral that would have to take it's course. But i'd really like to get parasites a try.


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm going to get the capsules this morning. How much do I put in with their water? (and their water has sulmet in it, so do I keep using the sulmet?) I'll be back


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> I understand about the symptoms. They have had contact with each others poop unfortunately which makes me think that the carrier could of possibly given worms (if they have them) to the other birds. Through all my research i've done on all their symptoms gapeworms seems to be the closest match. Or maybe they have some sort of viral that would have to take it's course. But i'd really like to get parasites a try.


I understand and just wanted to give you my best thoughts on what may be at play here. Let me know if you need help with the Quail dosing.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

got the tetracycline capsules..how much do i give the birds? and can i keep the sulmet in the water?


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

also, they are 100% tetracycline. i didn't get any wormer, thought i'd hold off for now.. let me know about the dosage thank you!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> also, they are 100% tetracycline. i didn't get any wormer, thought i'd hold off for now.. let me know about the dosage thank you!


I wanted you to pick up the capsules to have on hand, as they are not too expensive and if there was any worsening of symptoms, I wanted there to be no delay in being able to be more aggressive in treatment. For now, if thing are stable or improving then, just stay with the Sulmet or individual dosing of the Triple-Sulfa. If you feel at anytime there is a worsening of condition, or you would like to be more aggressive in treatment you can use the tetracycline in the Sulmet water. You would add two 250mg capsules (500mg) to 1 liter of the already mixed Sulmet water (roughly 34oz).

For individual dosing you would add one capsule to 5mL (one cooking teaspoon, don't use a common flatware spoon) of pancake syrup or honey, stir well, let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 5% Tetracycline suspension to dose with (50mg/mL). You will give orally, 0.30cc (third line on a 1cc syringe, 15mg) twice a day, every 12 hours. Stir well before each use and keep refrigerated.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Oh, I see. The quail seem to be stable-not too bad. The one pigeon I am a little concerned about..He is in isolation now with sulmet water. Would you recommend starting him on Triple Sulfa or Tetracycline?
Also, on the sulmet bottle it says after two days of full treatment split the treatment in half for 4 more days or for Acute Fowl Cholera it says treat at full strength for 6 days. Should I treat for Acute Fowl Cholera or just the after two days split the treatment in half?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Oh, I see. The quail seem to be stable-not too bad. The one pigeon I am a little concerned about..He is in isolation now with sulmet water. Would you recommend starting him on Triple Sulfa or Tetracycline?
> Also, on the sulmet bottle it says after two days of full treatment split the treatment in half for 4 more days or for Acute Fowl Cholera it says treat at full strength for 6 days. Should I treat for Acute Fowl Cholera or just the after two days split the treatment in half?


I would follow the manufacturer's instructions on the Sulmet for use, as I don't think, from the symptoms, they have acute fowl cholera, and so go to the half dose (1 tablespoon) at the correct time.

With the one pigeon you have concerns with, if it is the same one with the yellowish nodule in his throat then, I would probably really make an effort to find the Metroplex and put him on individual dosing of the Triple-Sulfa at 0.20cc for the TS and 0.30cc of the Tetracycline (both every 12h, as mentioned in their instructions).

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...for all the repeated asking since the beginning...

This is too hard for me to get any useful Handle on.

We still have nothing for images showing anyone's poops/urates.

We have no info nor details which would allow any evaluation of whether anyone is eating, whether their digestive systems are functioning, whether anyone is pooping more than JUST enough for someone to say they have, no idea how the Crops are passiong, no idea of anyone's hydration or liquid intakes, no info to deduce infection, on and on...

GapeWorm would not produce any of the symptoms described so far, and, certainly would not be causing mysterious un-evaluated liquids to be leaking out of Beaks...even if, possibly, some kinds of Worms could be making problems, if the Worms or inflamations secondary to them are obturating or restricting the GI, causing fluids in the Crop to not pass in a timely way, or causing illnesses opportuning into open lesions form Worms, in which case, there would be reason to 'Worm' them, but all the info needed for filling out this scenario has been lacking.


A supposedly minute, extremely tiny 'dot' in the back of the Pigeon's Throat is now being called a 'Nodule' - is it a 'Nodule'? Or, is it a tiny, minute, extremely small 'dot'? Or? Or is it even still there at all?


Are these various Species and ages of Birds still having entirely unevaluated and mysterious liquids leaking out of their Beaks? Or, was that only for a short time, and then went away as mysteriously as it had arrived?

Out of their Beaks or out of their Nostrils? I never did get clear on that part.


I think it would be good to pause and establish some definite details here with all this, and to stop obsessing on a pet idea about 'Gape Worms' effecting all these Birds in all these ways, including ones far too young to have hosted such parasites to any degree of development.

What is needed here, are basic observations, segregating the afflicted in order T be able to make and report cogent observations when asked, images to show important details, replies to questions, and so on, without which, all is pretty much confusion.


Meant friendly...


Phil
Lv


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I cannot safely isolate the bird because I have sick birds or birds that have not been exposed in every other room of my house. I know my birds well, and know they are all eating and drinking as normal. With this being said, I can't get pictures of the poop because I don't know which is his.. However, no poop in the loft looks out of the ordinary. It actually all looks extremely healthy. I understand isolation may help, but I simply cannot put the rest of my birds health at risk. 

The first bird to be sick and die (the button quail) had a clear fluid bubbling out of his mouth. The rest of the button quail had very minimal fluid coming out of their mouth but I have not seen any fluid coming out of there mouths in 2 days. They just fidget with their beaks all the time, like they have a bad taste in their mouth or something. A few are a bit fluffed up as well. The pigeon is doing the same fidget with his beak as well but no fluid out of his beak.

As I told Karyn, I decided to hold off on any wormer. I also went out and bought one of the medicines she suggested to have on hand. Unfortunately, I can not find the other one. 

I really do appreciate all the help I can get!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

CCG, here's a link to Jedd's, for the Metronidazole if you are having trouble sourcing the Metroplex:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-524/FISH-dsh-ZOLE-250MG--dsh--60/Detail.bok

They are in Anaheim, so if you speak to them they could probably get some out pretty quick, you could check with them what their next day costs would be.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Thank you!! Now when I get it, Do I start treating them with it or is it just to have on hand?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Thank you!! Now when I get it, Do I start treating them with it or is it just to have on hand?


When you get it, use it to start treatment with the pigeon you observed with the yellowish growth in the throat. To do this cut one of the 250mg pills into 4 pieces, "pop" one piece down his throat, like in this video clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow, and then divide the 6 remaining pieces in half and give 1 piece again, for the next 6 days (so you will treat for 7 days total with Metronidazole) .

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok thank you. So treat him with this before tetracycline?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Ok thank you. So treat him with this before tetracycline?


The Metronidazole can be give at the same time as antibiotics, so for example, if you are giving AB at 9am and then again at 9pm, you can give the Metronidazole a few hours before, or after the AB (once a day dosing for the Metronidazole). Sometimes if I am using just one antibiotic I will just go ahead and give the Metronidazole at the same time as one of the AB doses, but when I am using two antibiotics together, I generally give the Metronidazole apart form the AB. This is just my personal preference, some will just go ahead and give them all at the same time.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I mean...Don't treat him with tetracycline until he takes a major turn for the worse? The quail seem worse this morning So I want to catch in with the pigeons before it's too late. I'll be getting the Metronidazole today! Going out to Anaheim soon.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> I mean...Don't treat him with tetracycline until he takes a major turn for the worse? The quail seem worse this morning So I want to catch in with the pigeons before it's too late. I'll be getting the Metronidazole today! Going out to Anaheim soon.


If the quail have taken a turn down, I would go ahead and add the tetracycline to the quail's water as set out earlier. I myself, for the pigeon, would also go ahead and treat with both the sulfa and tetracycline, as well as the Metronidazole, you are picking up today. Make sure he stays well hydrated.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

The quail began tetracycline yesterday at 1 tsp per gallon. 
Another pigeon talk member posted this on a different thread.. It seems possible.. What do you think? 

This is part of an article by Dr. Colin Walker
Depending on what stresses the birds are under, trichomonad levels will rise and fall. When high, they have a typical parasitic effect, weakening the bird, in the process creating a vulnerability to secondary infection (particularly respiratory infection) and compromising race performance. They also produce a toxin that makes the birds feel unwell.

Birds with elevated trichomonad levels are said to have 'wet canker'. Signs of infection can be subtle and quite varied.

Typical signs that would alert the fancier to its possible presence include:

1. 'Penguin' posture - Associated with proventricular (glandular stomach) and crop pain. Birds will lean back on their tails and gulp. Noticed particularly after eating and drinking.

2. 'Dry feather' - Due to lack of down feather drop and bloom production.

3. 'Leady' feel - Affected birds will not come into condition and feel heavy in the hand.

4. Wet dropping - Inflammation in the digestive tract creates a thirst, leading to elevated water intake and urine production. This produces a clear watery rim around the dropping.

5. Green droppings - Due to digestive tract irritation and in some birds decreased food intake.

6. Inflammation in the throat - Tonsillitis and increased clear to grey bubbly mucus.

7. Interference with crop function - Delayed crop emptying and sometimes vomiting.

8. Increased food consumption by team as a whole

9. Dry yellow canker - In birds of any age, this tells you that many other birds have elevated trichomonad levels, which have not yet passed the threshold for yellow material to form.

10. Indirect signs - Poor loft flying, poor tossing, respiratory problems that respond poorly to medication or quickly relapse, a dramatic improvement in the birds' general vigour in response to anticanker medication are all suggestive.

Definitive diagnosis, however, depends on microscopic examination of a crop flush. Microscopic changes that are suggestive of the problem also develop in the dropping,. These changes are associated with the stress of the disease and include elevated E. coli and yeast levels. These changes, however, do not occur in all birds.
http://fowlfacts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medshhh&action=print&thread=167


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, I am aware of a good deal of that information, but canker is not an acute and sudden illness, where one day a bird is fine and the next very unwell (unless a person has missed a bunch of warning signs of illness and it seems like the bird is suddenly sick). I have no experience with quail, so I don't know if there are signs to ask you about you could have missed, other than signs of sickness common in many birds, or how big an issue trichomoniasis (canker) is with quail. So unless you did not pick up on something that was present and taking down the health of your birds, than canker, IMO, would not be the primary cause of illness, it's most times bacterial and viral infections that are sudden onset. However, as mentioned when birds are stressed and weak canker can present as a secondary infection, which may be the case with the pigeon where you observed the small yellow lesion in his throat.



> The quail began tetracycline yesterday at 1 tsp per gallon.


Can you clarify this for me, you have 250mg tetracycline capsules.


Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

About the quail- I was finally able to get ahold of a quail breeder through a bird farm and he said to try this but don't do anything else because the little quail are so delicate. 
I have 250mg capsules which I broke apart and put their powder into the water.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> About the quail- I was finally able to get ahold of a quail breeder through a bird farm and he said to try this but don't do anything else because the little quail are so delicate.
> I have 250mg capsules which I broke apart and put their powder into the water.


The breeder should be able to be of help to you both with what may going on with them and in mentioning, as he did, that they are delicate (much unlike pigeons), and perhaps other cautions for them when treating, which will be a good resource for you.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Now about the pigeon-
The symptoms are very subtle. Nobody notices it but me but I know my birds well. I spend a great deal of time with them and I know when something isn't right. He seems to be taking big gulps and fidgeting with his mouth. I don't know how else to explain it.. 

I am really concerned about him but at the same time I don't want to over medicate him or give him so many antibiotics that if he heals he will be susceptible to everything! I've never had to deal with medicating my birds before, as they have always been extremely healthy, so I thought i'd share my thoughts with a more knowledgeable person Thank you Karyn!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Citycowgirl,


Don't you think by now you could at least isolate the one Pigeon?


Even if this means you just get a large Cardboard Box, cut Air Holes in the sides, and, drapw the top with a sheer fabric? Have the Pigeon on white Paper Towels.


And, then, be able to actually properly make the observations asked for, and, make images of the poops/urates?


Even one or two sick Quail in a similar Box, with air holes, with the Bird on white Paper Towels would be so much better than what you have been doing.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Now about the pigeon-
> The symptoms are very subtle. Nobody notices it but me but I know my birds well. I spend a great deal of time with them and I know when something isn't right. He seems to be taking big gulps and fidgeting with his mouth. I don't know how else to explain it..
> 
> I am really concerned about him but at the same time I don't want to over medicate him or give him so many antibiotics that if he heals he will be susceptible to everything! I've never had to deal with medicating my birds before, as they have always been extremely healthy, so I thought i'd share my thoughts with a more knowledgeable person Thank you Karyn!


CCG, if you share your life with birds, there are very few who will not have to medicate them, at one time or another, for an illness they have come down with. Since we are in the position of not being able to send this guy, or others to the vet right now for tests, we have to take more of what is called a shot gun approach, which means having be to more broad in treatment medication, because we have no firm diagnosis as to cause. You may think of this as over medicating, but I think of it as being prudent, because if we medicate in too narrow a range, we could end up losing the bird as a result. Still no guarantees that this may not happen, with what we are doing, but all the meds are safe, and there nothing I have recommended doing that is not something I would not do on one of my own birds and we can just hope that it is enough for whatever is wrong with him.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Is the tetracycline or metronidazole stronger? I am going to start treatment of one of these tonight but unsure which to begin. Quail seem to be responding well to tertracycline


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Is the tetracycline or metronidazole stronger? I am going to start treatment of one of these tonight but unsure which to begin. Quail seem to be responding well to tertracycline


It's not really a case which is stronger, as they are not used to treat the same kind of infections. The Tetracycline is used for bacterial infections and the Metronidazole is usually used in pigeons to treat protozoal infections, the common one being trichomoniasis (canker). I am glad you think the quail are responding to the tetracycline, I have mentioned a few times now what I would do to treat the pigeon if he were in my care, the last being in my post #70, that I would be using all three meds to treat right now. You have the dosing for all of the meds, and the reasons why I suggested why I would do this, so you have to do what you are comfortable in doing.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok thank you for all your help! I have all the medicines now so I need to just do it. Last thing.. 500mg of tetracycline per liter of water, correct? seems like a lot, just want to make sure it's correct


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Ok thank you for all your help! I have all the medicines now so I need to just do it. Last thing.. 500mg of tetracycline per liter of water, correct? seems like a lot, just want to make sure it's correct


Yes this is correct, make sure you don't use a quart measure, as some people think they are about the same, when a liter actually contains a few ounces more than a quart in volume.

For the lone ill pigeon, as mentioned, I would be doing individual dosing for him to make sure he is properly dosed, as medicating by water can bit hit and miss sometimes.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

I have started dosing him individually thanks for your help!


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

just realized something... the Metronidazole i got is only 100mg a tablet.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> just realized something... the Metronidazole i got is only 100mg a tablet.


What is the brand name and who makes it, where did you get it?

Not a big problem, just cut a pill in half and give one piece, 50mg once. Then cut one whole pill into quarters and the other 1/2 piece in half, so you will have 6 pieces at 25mg each and give one piece a day for the next 6 days, after giving the the 50mg the first, for a total of 7 days of treatment.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

it's from magnolia bird farm in anaheim. they told me it was what i needed just a different name
http://www.jedds.com/-strse-523/MEDITRICH-100-tablets-(Medpet)/Detail.bok


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> it's from magnolia bird farm in anaheim. they told me it was what i needed just a different name
> http://www.jedds.com/-strse-523/MEDITRICH-100-tablets-(Medpet)/Detail.bok


OK, this med is just fine, I just wanted to confirm what you picked up was 100% Metronidazole.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

Great I started that. Also, how many days of tetracycline? he seems to be doing better!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> Great I started that. Also, how many days of tetracycline? he seems to be doing better!


At least a week, but could be 10-14 days, glad he seems to be heading in the right direction, thanks for the update.

Karyn


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## citycowgirl (Feb 16, 2011)

just an update: all the birds are 100% back to normal after following the instructions for tetracycline and metronidazole for the pigeon
thanks for the help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

citycowgirl said:


> just an update: all the birds are 100% back to normal after following the instructions for tetracycline and metronidazole for the pigeon
> thanks for the help!


CCG, thanks for the update. I am glad that they all fully recovered and are now fine.

Karyn


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