# Cranberries



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Now, I know there are those of you who tend towards the belief that I don't believe in anything natural. I'd just like to say that that ain't exactly the truth--I just don't go hog-wild over natural remedies unless there's some published lab proof.

Anyhow, I heard this the other day and have been keeping it in the back of my head to post on here because I haven't seen much of anything about it before: recent findings have shown that cranberries change E. coli bacteria in such a way as to prevent them from causing the disease state (pretty sure that I got that right). 

Now, we all know that something in cranberries renders the bladder and associated tubing too slick for bacteria to hang onto. This helps prevent bladder infections although it won't cure an infection in progress. This latest finding seems new to me although I haven't had the time to research it. Anyhow, I think we oughta' discuss giving our birds cranberries, cranberry extract or whatever (unless we already have and I missed it) against the possibility of an E. coli flare-up. I've heard of a few of those in loft situations before. This might be something that would work to stop such a thing.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, now this is an interesting "con" webpage... anybody ever seen this happen by personal experience?

http://www.waterfall-d-mannose.com/e-coli-cranberry.htm#acid

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-09/wpi-cic090806.php


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI PIDGEY, I saw something about cranberries also can't remember where.I have been toying with the idea of using dryed cranberries to my race birds. .GEORGE


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Bluberries are suppose to be good for you also. Not sure about pigeons tho.


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## RussianRoller (Mar 19, 2007)

*So*

*WHAT R U SAYIN, THAT PIGEONS WILL EAT Cranberries, OR U HAVE TO PUT IT DOWN THERE THROATS?*


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, all...


Any small orders of palatable people-enjoyed fruiting-bodys are good for them, and in Nature they would tend to brouse these when available.


These will of course vary in their particular nutritional propertys, and in theory, will even have remarkable attributes, propertys and applications for specific conditions.


There is no reason not to allow our Pigeons to enjoy both various Naturel Berrys by eating them on their own...and I feel we do well sometimes to include them in various ways for formula recipes also of course, either Pureed Berrys, or Berrys processed to pass through feeding tube when possible, or, for useing extracts or Juices of them.


That mainstream medical affirmations for benifits and uses of these are lacking, should not come as any surprise, nor is it something one would wait for, since no one will fund research for this, almost no research or systematic Science or testing is being done or will be done, and there is no easy obscene profits waiting for anyone who does do the systematic research...and no one is going to make a financial killing from it being known or explored in technical terms for exploitation as a proprietary monopoly in deferential applications.


Does this really need to be explained?


Lol...


And sigh...


Love,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too, at-a-glance, the articles do not seem to distinguish between cooked Cranberries, or raw ones, nor do they seem to distinguish beteen ripe ones and ones which are not ripe...nor possibly where and under what conditions the Berrys are grown.


While I personally LOVE Science, I feel contempt for bad-science which ignores germain variables IN matters being investigated, whatever their pronouncements may then be.


Bad-science is 98 percent of what gets called 'science' day in, day out.


Sad...

Some schmucks in a lab are per-se no more Science, than the same scmucks at home.

Science is identifying variables, and methodology and care...

This, when lacking in the indivual, will tend to lack in their Work also.


Anyway...


Absolutely, this area is very worthy of research and study...and I hope for more information, ideally, from sources who are respectfully Scientific as well as impirical or pragmatic practioners who are not being Scientific, but simply noticed co-relations and explored them a little with definite results, however it may be those 'results' are bing interpreted.

At least then, there is a beginning, a suggestion, and a direction which may recieve some attention and further looking into...for refinement in understanding and practice.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, now this is an interesting "con" webpage... anybody ever seen this happen by personal experience?
> 
> http://www.waterfall-d-mannose.com/e-coli-cranberry.htm#acid
> 
> Pidgey




Hi Pidgey, 


Why do you catagorize this informaiton and web page as a "con"?


They seem quite clear and careful in their wording and in what they are saying, and spell out a lot of integrated and expanded information.


Why is this a "con" ? 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> 
> Why do you catagorize this informaiton and web page as a "con"?
> ...


I think he means "con" as in against, not for, as opposed to a scheme, hoodwink the ignorant or gullible. 
As these people are selling a product "D-mannose" they are stating their case against the use of cranberries for chronic bladder infections.

Flitsnowzoom -- a chemist


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pros and cons. "Pro" for "for", and "con" for "against". Arguments both ways.

It interesting that one general concept that can be brought out of the one argument is essentially the same one that's made against antibiotics: if you use anything, apparently, against an infection on a repeated basis, you run the risk of developing resistant strains. Actually, it's more a deal of killing off the non-resistant strains and leaving the naturally resistant ones left with the "winner-take-all" effect.

Pidgey


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pidgey said:


> Now, I know there are those of you who tend towards the belief that I don't believe in anything natural. I'd just like to say that that ain't exactly the truth--I just don't hog-wild over natural remedies unless there's some published lab proof......
> 
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey,

Now that is interesting....now I am curious, what natural or man made products do you use, which has been demonstrated in a lab on pigeons, and has been published.  

I am not aware of any products, man made or otherwise, that have published lab work, which involved the use of pigeons. I am sure there must be a product out there, but you must have a very limited number of items to use. Unless you are accepting lab work on other animals as your "proof" that it is effective on pigeons ? 

Fanciers are always looking for that magic pill...that is part of human nature, and perhaps why people are always popping pills, and getting sicker. Perhaps that nature, is what allowed "snake oil" salespeople to prosper. Now the biz has gone "legit" complete with some "tests" to back up claims that taking this pill or that will make solve your problem....and bingo...now here is the problem, who is going to spend the money to produce lab work, to show that giving your pigeon a glass of fresh cranberry juice in the AM will keep them in good health ? The cranberry producers maybe ?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Easy enough to find reports of clinical trials on humans on the internet. My (admittedly quick) browse through seemed to suggest that the more serious the study, in terms of how well documented, the more indeterminate the findings.

I tend to the view that 'natural' products are fine for birds and animals for which - in their 'raw' form - they would be part of the normal diet, or very similar to something which is. 

John


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

John_D said:


> Easy enough to find reports of clinical trials on humans on the internet. My (admittedly quick) browse through seemed to suggest that the more serious the study, in terms of how well documented, the more indeterminate the findings.
> 
> John


Soapbox warning  the following is a soapbox issue with me.

It is especially hard to find true scientific studies on "organic" cures, extracts, whatever. Science and true hard scientific double-blind studies are difficult at the best of times to fund, and now, there is very little interest in funding pure science at the government levels -- any government anywhere in the world -- unless there is a perceived "national need" for the projected outcome of the study, such as elementary physics or material sciences applications. Since most governments are ruled by politicans (by and large non-scientists and likely couldn't stand science back when they had to study it in school), lawyers, glad handers, etc. and the general voting populace is, at best, neutral or, and is more likely, uninterested in science for the sake of discovery, there is little support for science and science funding. Most pure science is not glamorous or sexy -- unless you happen to be a scientist.

That is why most of the research into drugs, natural remedies, whatever, is funded by the companies that have the most to gain from the sale of the intended product. Funding must come from somewhere and if tax dollars (government) does not provide it, then companies must. The majority of university funding or even private funding is footed by companies or venture capital interested in the potential products that result from the research. 

I can almost guarantee that a company that does "research" on organic products such as cranberries, "mannose", essential oils, lavendar, and the like has very little scientific data that can be validated or reproduced in independent studies by scientists without a vested interest in the outcome. The best most of these companies can offer are chromatography results with certain organic compound peaks identified and labelled as the "active" compounds and all the other peaks either not identified, labeled as not important, or misidentified, or a simple listing of chemical or element names that the general populace has no idea what they mean. More often, what is presented as scientific is little more than a collection of antedotal data that supports one side or another.

I think there is very little research done with birds because they are not mammals and do not share that basic body plan with us. We are most interested on stuff that works on us. Birds are also very messy to keep as opposed to other lab animals (let's face it, birds have feather and down that they constantly work with and preen, so they are always losing something), they are not as tame (domesticated) as rats, dogs, cats, bunnies, the typical lab animals, and once a bird is compromised (for the sake of an experiment), they tend to go downhill quickly, not good from an experimental point of view. The unique respiratory system of the _Aves_ probaby has a great deal to do with the difficulties of keeping birds healthy in a laboratory setting where they are the experimental animal. 


So that leaves people like us to try to extrapolate from what is in the medical or vetrenary (can't spell,  ) literature or the "natural" literature and see if we can make sense of it for our use. 
Off soapbox 

I admire all of you who take these sick and injured birds under your wings and tease out this information. P-T should publish a book about your work and findings! I'm serious. It would be a wonderful guide and resource for all bird lovers.

Sorry for the long-winded post.
Flitsnowzoom -- a highly frustrated scientist!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Soapbox warning  the following is a soapbox issue with me.
> 
> It is especially hard to find true scientific studies on "organic" cures, extracts, whatever....


That all makes good sense to me.

Problem I find with (scientifically) unproven 'natural' remedies is that if a rescued pigeon is sick with something which can readily be diagnosed (say, trich) then I'm going to go with something which I know will work in all but, possibly, the most far gone cases, rather than something which may or may not and could take more time than the bird can afford to show results (or no results). Oversimplification, probably, but you get my drift.

John


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

John_D said:


> That all makes good sense to me.
> 
> Problem I find with (scientifically) unproven 'natural' remedies is that if a rescued pigeon is sick with something which can readily be diagnosed (say, trich) then I'm going to go with something which I know will work in all but, possibly, the most far gone cases, rather than something which may or may not and could take more time than the bird can afford to show results (or no results). Oversimplification, probably, but you get my drift.
> 
> John



Absolutely! 

That's why I think this group of people on P-T with their experience and results for the use of various drugs or products on "off-label" applications (ie, the fishpond stuff for canker) should collect this information and publish it as a resource guide. 
Antedotal experience is what led us (as a species) to identify willow bark as a fever reducer . Scientific observation and study of these experiences allowed a chemist to identify and then manufacture the active compounds ("asprin") for our use. Here, we have the same system operating (experience and observation) which is why I think this collective has such great value and is a wonderful resource.

(aside -- My personal ethics would not allow me to purposely infect or damage a living organism to see what happens when you dose it with this or that. I would make a lousy medical researcher.)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Warren, I think you're asking a much larger question than you know. Or actually want to wade through, for that matter.

You've heard of the "double-blind study"? That's to TRY and negate the "placebo effect" by way of not only keeping the people taking the drugs from knowing whether they're getting the real thing or not, but to also keep the people GIVING the drugs from knowing. For us, you can actually heal quite a few things by simply BELIEVING. The substance that you're taking in such cases is nothing more than something to focus on. People generally don't grasp the signficance of that. You can call it "mind-over-matter" or whatever you want, but it IS a VERY significant factor.

With animals, it's a bit different, of course, seeing as how the placebo effect would be far more limited. I believe that sometimes they can be infused with our desires and wishes for them to try and live, and that that can help. It's a matter of the spirit and useless to even try and observe "in the lab".

I'm not sure that my interest in and discussion about things like this is actually compatible with yours though, Warren. Loft management and flying performance is a completely different thing than what those of us who rehab do and, I tend to think, requires a different approach. My loft is populated by birds that were dying of injuries and diseases because they were unlucky or are lesser individuals to begin with. Many of them have internal organs that have been ravaged by disease to the point where they're functioning on a limited basis. Many of them have refractory disease (difficult or impossible to completely eradicate) and will, in time, cause recurrent infections that may spread to the others. This kind of thing cannot be tolerated in a flyer's loft, especially in an exceptional one.

The philosophical difference boils down to how our views differ with respect to the individual versus the group. On Pigeon-Talk, there is an uneasy truce most of the time between the rehabbers and the flyers and the peace is mostly kept by an unwritten policy of "don't ask, don't tell". I'm all for keeping it that way.

I don't think most folks want to go too in-depth on the raw data "from the lab" nor how it's interpretted, though. I rather doubt that there is enough commercial value to warrant any true lab testing for pigeons per se because it's usually rather expensive to do conclusively. 

Typically, though, medicinal products are tested against the pathogens in question, the species usually being of secondary relevance. You run into some things that some species don't tolerate too well but there don't seem to be too many things to worry about with pigeons. 

That said, the use of probiotics IS known to be very helpful in certain circumstances so that's one for you. I was hoping that the next time I find a pigeon with consistent worm eggs in the fecal that I could try the Chaparral Tea. My life took a horrible turn towards "busy-beyond-belief" just a few months ago so there's a lot I have been meaning to do but just haven't had the time. I still haven't gotten around to testing the garlic deal. Now, THAT will be a very simple and very conclusive test for what I wanted to get out of it.

Anyhow, Warren, I specifically remember somebody once saying that they kept having recurrent E. coli problems in their loft. I don't know how they know that, whether they'd done cultures or what. But, maybe cranberries would pan out for them--it's one of those things that's highly unlikely that any lab will provide any kind of "thumb's up or down" for their situation so it'd have to be relegated to the "well... let's give a try and see what happens" method.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If someone has a recurrent e.coli problem in their loft, they can have a loft-specific vaccine developed for them by a vet who works w/pigeons and 
performs this service for racers/breeders.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> I think he means "con" as in against, not for, as opposed to a scheme, hoodwink the ignorant or gullible.
> As these people are selling a product "D-mannose" they are stating their case against the use of cranberries for chronic bladder infections.
> 
> Flitsnowzoom -- a chemist



Hi Flitsnowzoom, 


Oh...

Lol...

I am way sleep deprived lately...and liable to more than usual glitches I am sure.


Interesting article regardless...and, for all I know, they may be quite correct...or at least have a good case.

Likely, to me anyway, it would mase sense to examine the diets and habits and other particulars of those who never have bladder infections, and to compare those with the diets and habits and other particulars of those who do, to see what co-relations are inferred in that 'research'. Rather than, or subsequent to, a development of a chemical or extract or drug which appears to address the problem abstractly, while not preventing it in an incidental way, the first place.

But certainly a regimen which can reduce or eliminate the problem, is very valuable ( if it is for real), and at most, should be a stop-gap recourse, pending research with seeks to understand the problem as something incidental to other factors, and to determine what those factors are, and what can reasonably be done with them to benifit those who might be or become afflicted.


Thanks...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Pros and cons. "Pro" for "for", and "con" for "against". Arguments both ways.
> 
> It interesting that one general concept that can be brought out of the one argument is essentially the same one that's made against antibiotics: if you use anything, apparently, against an infection on a repeated basis, you run the risk of developing resistant strains. Actually, it's more a deal of killing off the non-resistant strains and leaving the naturally resistant ones left with the "winner-take-all" effect.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, all...


Or, to aspire to remember that the afflicted posess an 'Immune System" or a global state or cindition of Health...which had been compromised for their having hosted the mischief in the first place.

Typically, nothing is ever done to care for the afflicted's Immune System, or global Health, but what is done, is to address an abstract symptom or technically identifiable/isolatable problem or pathogen, adminster Drugs for 'that', and to ignore everything else.


'Medicine' as a whole has ignored this in almost every kind or class of situation, but for 'hiv' and some few others, where, they seem to recall, grudgeingly, that an Immune System or Global Organism exists, at least academically, and as an aside.

This to me is far from upholding pretenses or pretexts of 'Science', or even of common sense.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> That all makes good sense to me.
> 
> Problem I find with (scientifically) unproven 'natural' remedies is that if a rescued pigeon is sick with something which can readily be diagnosed (say, trich) then I'm going to go with something which I know will work in all but, possibly, the most far gone cases, rather than something which may or may not and could take more time than the bird can afford to show results (or no results). Oversimplification, probably, but you get my drift.
> 
> John



Hi John, 


Quite so...


"Berimax" is one product which is not formally allowed to be a recognised Medicine, without many many many millions of dollars being spent to jump-through-the-hoops of the fda and others.

All reports of it's use thta I could find, were completely favorable.

For Canker or related Trichomoniasis conditions, my own experience is that it is the most effective, kindest, easiest on even five day old Babys wno never showed any hint of compromise for the Medicine being in their systems, is very forgiving dosage wise, and also that others have reported it to elimainte any discoverable traces of the Trichomonads in the Bird's system, includeing 'resistant' strains.


One could hardly ask for more...


I see no reason why other 'Natural' drugs or compounds or Botanical or Vegetative extracts or derivitives would not prove similarly effective for certain things they happen to be effective for.


If something 'works' reliably, I see no reason for it to be disparaged or invalidated simply for want of government sanction or proffering by multinational pharmaceutical houses.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi flitssnowzoom,


Below...amid...some fun...




flitsnowzoom said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> That's why I think this group of people on P-T with their experience and results for the use of various drugs or products on "off-label" applications (ie, the fishpond stuff for canker) should collect this information and publish it as a resource guide.



Yes...and or potentially "yes"...or could be better, anyway, but I am grateful for what there is, and very...




> Antedotal experience is what led us (as a species) to identify willow bark as a fever reducer .




And some the 'best' Medical people alive, then and since, have said that if the 40-50 or 60 odd Million people who died in the 1918-1919 Influenza epidemic had NOT taken 'Aspirin', they'd almost all have lived to tell their tales of transient fevers, sweats and mialgias and maybe some bouts of nausia and so on, instead of being corpses. Aspirin by then WAS very very popular and widely available just about everywhere...and was universally resorted to in fevers of any kind.


Why do we believe we need to reduce Fevers every time, always, in every instance of their occuring?


Where is the 'science' or the sound impirical evaluations there, for that?

Everyone compulsively wishes to eliminate or reduce fever...as if the fever was the 'problem'.

No one questions it.


People typically speak of or spoke of so-and-so as "...having a Fever..." or 'died of fever'...as if THAT were the issue. Not that so-and-so had some underlieing systemic infection or virus or enteric or other illness to which the Body's response was for one thing, to occasion a Fever to slow the reproductive rate of the invasive or opportuning Organisms so the Body's Immune system could catch up to the challange of the circumstance's exigencys...and mediate them.

Yet, "that" just might have been the real factor in the appauling mortality of the 1918-1919 'flu...


Top government and Industry insiders and advisors know this of course, tacitly, as they 'know' so many other things...but things "like" a 'potential' Influenza epidemic happenning again, help those who want to own everything, own everything...knowledge and information as well, if not as pre-requisite. Now we are told the 'Pentagon' will adminster 'Marshal Law' if the 'bird flu' DOES seem 'imminent'.


Nice, huh?


They are calling for possibly 3 million 'deaths' from bird 'flu, and this of course will necessitate 'Marshal Law' being imposed.


We loose nearly a million people a year from agrregiously blatant medical "healthcare" screw ups, and this has been attested to by ex-heads of the CDC.


That is well over 3 million in any five year time span.

No one every seems to say anything about 'that'...it is of no concern, it makes lots of money!






Did not our president or by proxy and his golf buddys and Goldfish and so on buy out or own all the 'bird 'flu vaccine' futures in a timely well in 'advance' way? As well as owning or owning by proxy, the patents or rights to manufacture it? And the rights to distribute it? and the mandates TO make everyone take it when they see fit? Or else? and so on? 

His calling for pre-emptive strikes useing the military, against wild Species of Birds anywhere in the World who 'they' felt might be threatening to people or to the meat lobby generally?

You know, kinda like all those American Airline stocks they dumped in August? some weeks 'before' them 'towers'?

They also own vast holdings in provate out-sourced and contract private-sector 'prison' stocks and futures...where people will be put in times of 'Marshal Law' being imposed...or if womeone refuses a 'vaccine'.

To say nothing of the vast network of inturnment 'Camps' which 'fema' is in charge of.



Does 'that' tell us anything?




There's "no" business...like 'show' business, is there?


No...




Like so much else...


I have had high sustained fevers, more than once in childhood, and a few later... 106 - 107 anyway when they checked...and I did not have any Aspirin, or for whatever reason, was not given any, or, I refused it when offered...and all tolled, I got over the illness by myself doing nothing special at all, ( but for maybe eating lots of fresh ripe Pine Apple, Grapefruits, or other fruits, or cold roast pork Sandwhiches with Miricale whil and Black Pepper, Lol...which I recall craving at the time) and was fine afterward. 


I imagine others could do so also.



Later, I wondered why fevers were so compulsively regarded as something to be gotten rid of, when fevers are the Body's manner of it's own self management, and manner of effecting it's relations with not-wanted tresspassers or infections, viruses, tumors, and so on.


Later, I read old research form the 'oos, 'teens, 'twentys, and some newer, some current, saying the same as their summary appreciations.

Various Cancers, in addition to various kinds of Tumors and other conditions also were sometimes found to be eliminated by incidental and high-ish Naturally occuring fevers from something else, which were let run their course without Aspirin.

But of course 'this' was too 'simple' for a multibilliondollar or now multitrilliondollar industry and lobby and interlocking board of directors and stiock holders who are hand in glove with governments, as well as hireing ex-givernment higher-ups on their otherwise 'retirement' to want to hear about, or, to conceed, unless they could be in charge of the 'fevers', unless they could somehow controll it to charge great sums for doing it for you, to you... and charge you or me or our insurance company a couple hundred grand to let us have one of their artificial ( and do they work as well? No...) 'fevers' to aid in some recovery process.
And of course this is not as good as how things are otherwise, so...


Never neglect 'public opinion' as an influencial decider of 'reality'...especially when it is gratituously and otherwise pandered to for money and power over it...and cultivated in the first place, for money, and power over it, too...



THAT is the biggest 'Industry' of all...







> Scientific observation and study of these experiences allowed a chemist to identify and then manufacture the active compounds ("asprin") for our use.




Which 'use' sadly, does not appear to have been evaluated with sufficient interest or open mindedness or reason, to really do any justice to the subjects, or, to the pretenses of formalized medicine as-an-industry which wishes to insinuate itself into the 'mystique' of 'Science', at all.

I like Aspirin very much for the occasional 'Headache', but too, if I drink enough Water or other appropriate Liquids, I do not get dehydrated to have a Head-ache in the first place.


That Chemist, or those Chemists..."Bayer" ( or "Bauer" as it was then, ) even if innocently enough, just might have killed 50 million people...while no one, or rather, only some few insightful or intuitive lay or Medical observers, noticed what was 'really' happenning...


THAT, is reality - almost no one noticing what IS "happenning" while experts pronounce on what 'they' notice...as abstractions.


See those 'twin towers' again, for that matter...

See lots of things we think we 'see', or get told...


It is endless...





> Here, we have the same system operating (experience and observation) which is why I think this collective has such great value and is a wonderful resource.



I agree...


Far as I know there is really fairly little difference 'medically' between an Aves and a Hominid. But then too, on what scale? Maybe the differences are huge, maybe they are small...it will depend on what scale one is referencing.


Some things will be toxic to some Birds, and some things will be toxic to most people which Birds handle well enough.

Birds are generally hardier than people are...and have far faster metabolisms and little to no neurosis to complicate or conflict their intelligence and Body processes and viscerotonic and other conditions.

Dosage-to-weight ratios of various Medicines will vary between Birds and People sometimes.

Sometimes they need proportionately more, or less medicine for something, than we would, for the medicine to work optimumly.


There are differences and they can be very important...but in Medical or Pharmaceutical contexts, likely the differences all tolled are smaller than or about the same as the differences between individual hominids, for that matter.


All in all, Birds are greatly more advanced and sophisticated and evolved and effecient physically, and physiologically, than people are, and we do well to note this for our own edifications, and our respects to them.

As Creatures, we excell in objectifying formalizations of mental models, or in objectifying our construences of theoretically isolated sub-systems 'as' Heiroglyphs or Vignettes of sorts...and that is about it.

I, like everyone, admire and enjoy our abilitys to do what we do in these regards, or at least when such is pleasing anyway.


Otherwise, we are crude, clueless, clumsey, inefficient scavengers and cowardly preditors...opportunistic medllers who contribute nothing positive to any ecosystems, and impose or opportune on others with little to no interest in those others or in the integrity of the systems those others belong to or are members of.

If we died off as a Species tomorrow, we would likely not be missed by anyone...or for long.


And our contributions variously to the Planet as a whole, would be more positive than is possible otherwise.


Oye...


Lol

But in the mean time, there are possibility of learning...and of benevolent gestures between differing orders of Beings, and that, if nothing else, is something to find interesting, or, possibly, to cherish.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi John,
> 
> 
> Quite so...
> ...


Phil - 

It seems to have pretty good reports. 

As well as what I was reading about its use as a 'flock' treatment in drinkling water being effective, does it actually deal with the individual bird which has an ongoing, and possibly sever dose of canker?

John


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, I don't know about everyone else but I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Sure gives you some things to "ponder" on. Keep it going - it is great!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

John_D said:


> Phil -
> 
> It seems to have pretty good reports.
> 
> ...


John, since I posted the original link for this product and a couple of others, I don't mind saying that in a severe case of Trichomoniasis, I don't believe it replaces the "zole" sistahs.

fp


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Hi Phil, 
Interesting post and very chewy. 
'cause this multiquote thing has me stumped I just put my responses in a different font. 


pdpbison said:


> Hi flitssnowzoom,
> 
> 
> I have had high sustained fevers, more than once in childhood, and a few later... 106 - 107 anyway when they checked...and I did not have any Aspirin, or for whatever reason, was not given any, or, I refused it when offered...and all tolled, I got over the illness by myself doing nothing special at all, ( but for maybe eating lots of fresh ripe Pine Apple, Grapefruits, or other fruits, or cold roast pork Sandwhiches with Miricale whil and Black Pepper, Lol...which I recall craving at the time) and was fine afterward. _Heck Phil, it must have been the Mirical whip!!  . Made with real EGGS too.
> ...


Question. Where do I get non-sweetened dried cranberries and other fruits? I've noticed with the upswing in "organic" and "natural" products, the majority of dried fruit that is available in both healthfood stores and supermarkets now has added sugar -- something I try to avoid.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> Phil -
> 
> It seems to have pretty good reports.
> 
> ...




Hi John, 



Yes...

And it seems especially kind to Babys, and to frail Babys, where the Metronidazole or others can be a little rough on them.

It also eradicates a long list of other inimicals, while appearently leaving desireable micro-organisms in the Bird's system.


Too, in theory anyway, and likely in fact, if one were say in New Orleans after the Typhoons and soon, and all one had was the crappy sewage tainted and corpse tainted flood Waters to drink, you could fill a five gallon Can with that bad Water, dump in a few Tablespoons of 'Berimax', siphone and filter out the sediments if one wanted, wait most of a day or so, and then drink that water and be fine.

Could come in very handy for disaster relief contexts...floods especially, where potable Water is a problem, as if having any way to Boil Water.


Anyway, I will call the Makers of it sometimes soon and order a Case, instead of just one Bottle.


I ran out a while ago and need to get more.


However many Birds that Bottle treated ( 100?, 120?) I went through it...


If one's flock drinks enough from a spot one can have say-so over, it would be great for flock treatments.

If they drink there and elsewhere, one could make the mix more concentrated I suppose.


Some people I knew here had some nesting Pigeons in their eve...the Nest had just pipped Babys, and there was reason to think the Babys would get Canker ( ie the last round of Babys did). I gave the people enough 'Berimax' for mixing two Gallons of Water, and they set a small Water Bowl, washed and refreshed daily, close to the eve Nest, and appearently all went well and the Babys got well and everyone was happy...and I expect it cleaned up the Parent's Trichomona issues nicely in order for this eventuation with the Babys being allright and all.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Hi Phil,
> Interesting post and very chewy.
> 'cause this multiquote thing has me stumped I just put my responses in a different font.
> 
> ...



Hi flitsnowzoom, 



Far worse yet than the added Sugar, are the 'Sulfites' used as preservatives...these, if you have Asthma or are liable to Apnea, can kill you.

You eat some innocent-enough looking little snack of dried Apples or Apricots with sulfites in them, or have a glass of Wine or a couple Macaroons, of for whatever reason, you are shy on certain nutrients/viatmines and have too much 'sulphur' in yur system, or your Liver is compromised in some way...get sleepy-dopey first, then just decide to take-a-nap, and you fall asleep hard, and just stop breathing...and, if not your lucky day, you are quietly dead.


Lots of people die from this, Sulfites in Wines, Macaroons, Cany Bars, dried Fruits, restaurant salads, on and on...

Probably tens of thousands a year I'd guess.


Coroners always get those "who the heck knows what did 'em in" ones, and some of these, are likely 'this'...and or they have ways of determing 'Apnea' as cause-of-death, if they feel like going to the trouble, whether or not they understand the actual mechanism of it having come about for the individual in question.


Anyway, I'd say we should not give any Sulfite-Fruits or sulfite-anything to Birds, just to keep things on the safe side.



Anyway...



"Trader Joes", "Wild Oats" or other upscale good quality or 'hip' Grocers, will have various Certified Organic Dried Fruits of various kinds...as will any better Health Food Stores, or, buy direct, on-line, from making a few dozen or more tedious 'googles' to find Grower-Sellers or Sellers in various areas.

The best dried tart Cherries seem to come from Michigan...these are a good Bird one, for just about any species of Birds who eat meat or are Vegitarian or omnivores...and great for snacks or adding to things, for us, too...

I think fresh, Organic, ripe, off the Tree that day or yesterday, Berrys and other small Fruits are best of course, for Birds or us.

If one can not get those, then the dried are a Godsend...and of course once the fresh Season is over, dried is the only recourse one has.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> ....
> 
> 
> Question. Where do I get non-sweetened dried cranberries and other fruits? I've noticed with the upswing in "organic" and "natural" products, the majority of dried fruit that is available in both healthfood stores and supermarkets now has added sugar -- something I try to avoid.


Check out the frozen section of the supermarkets/healthfood stores for bagged
unadulterated cranberries.

fp


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*thanks*

Thanks Phil and FeralP for the shopping suggestions. 
People on this board are great!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Such a fun thread...I hate to see it fade into oblivian...

So, a 'bump' to bring it back 'up'...

Phil
l v


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