# question about worms



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I've been treating one of my new rescues with a 3-in-1 for worms, canker, coccidiosis. Since the treatment began, her droppings have turned watery and bright green, and now she's passing worms too. She has a few more days to go on this treatment. (instructions say to mix the powder w/ water and give for 5 days)

Does passing worms/green poops while on the treatment usually mean that the trouble is being taken care of? I guess I am just concerned because before she started the treatment her droppings were normal. And now they are all watery-green.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Most wormers have side effects although I can't speak for the Chaparral tea that Treesa advocates. Oddly enough, I don't see many of my local flock with worms (or worm eggs in the fecal floats, anyhow). I've been waiting to get one in with some so that I could try it. Anyhow, wait and see what happens for a few days after you've ended the treatment because the poop will probably go back to normal. If you want to give the bird probiotics, kefir or plain yoghurt, it might help, too.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you know what the worming ingredient is?


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Charis said:


> Do you know what the worming ingredient is?


I can post that when I get home. Foy's doesn't list the ingredients online


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Anyhow, wait and see what happens for a few days after you've ended the treatment because the poop will probably go back to normal. If you want to give the bird probiotics, kefir or plain yoghurt, it might help, too.
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks Pidgey,
I've given this to my other birds and never seen side effects (or worms, for that matter.) I'll try the probiotics or yogurt, and wait a few more days.

I was pretty surprised to see the worms - this bird is a racer and looks really healthy on the outside - muscular, glossy, bright-eyed and sleek. No bugs or lesions. Good thing I put her in quarantine when she came in!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's probably the same as Global's Multi-Mix:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/productimages/fullimg/IMG1124195652.jpg

The picture on Foy's looks identical to the Global's:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/multi_meds/index.html#3 In 1 Multi Mix

...which would make the wormer medication Oxybendazole.

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> It's probably the same as Global's Multi-Mix:
> 
> http://www.globalpigeon.com/productimages/fullimg/IMG1124195652.jpg
> 
> Pidgey


Yes, Pidgey, that's exactly the one! Let's see, the fine print in the photo says:
Amprolium
Ronidazole
Oxybendazole


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, saw that, but it doesn't give the ratios so it's a difficult exercise to chase down what dose the bird's actually getting without calling Global's up and asking them directly. That might work, you know.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think calling them would be a good idea and explain what you are seeing poop wise. They probably have a 1-800 number.
I have always a one day treatment wormers for individual and flock treatment. It's repeated after 10 days.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks Charis & Pidgey,
I will try calling the manufacturer if this does not clear up.
Looked at Global's health maintenance routine page and they recommend giving 1 day of clear water, probiotics for 1 day following the multi-mix. (Also 2 days of vitamins)

I chose this treatment because it seemed to be a good preventative med for giving new birds before introducing them to the others. More of a "just in case" than an actual diagnosis/treatment. I do not have an avian vet that I trust. (though in case of emergency i do know of one i could use) The few local breeders I've met have also mentioned that they have not found any good pigeon/dove vets nearby.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You won't always find eggs in the fecal floats when they have worms, especially
in the auto infest mode. The combination of Amprolium and Ronidazole is used
also in the product called CocciGeel. It could be that it is making the birds a bit 
on the nauseous side and they are not ingesting food in the quantity that they
normally would. It will probably change when off the meds. These meds are 
pretty safe and generally well tolerated otherwise.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Once you have got them dewormed, you can pretty much give them a garlic capsule once a week and that also aids in the prevention of unwanted intestinal guests. It is safe, and works well for an immune booster too.

The chapparell tea works well for a good cleansing, but watch out when they poop.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> The chapparell tea works well for a *good cleansing, but watch out when they poop*.


Okay, it's early the coffee is kicking in and I just got the visual picture in my head. Thank You! LOL!!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Karen, we almost always see worms in the poop if a bird is infected with them. We give ours Pyrantel/strongid, one treatment and repeat in 10 days. It will also affect the overall look of the poop. I would think with the 3 in 1 treatment it would definitely affect the poop for a while.

You may want to weigh them about every other day for a week or so to make sure they're not losing weight during this treatment. 

I hate worms like most folks hate canker.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks all!
I started treating this bird on last Tuesday evening, so she'll be done with the 3-in-1 after tomorrow. I'm definitely going to do the probiotics (well - yogurt) and vitamins afterward. (she has now passed at least a half dozen worms, maybe more- ugh!)

As for the garlic caps...
Does soaking a clove per gallon overnight and watering/bathing the birds with that have the same effect? Or is that too weak of a solution? 

I generally use ACV about once per week in the drinking water. I could alternate that with garlic water and clear water. Anyone have a recommended routine?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Karen,


As for the garlic caps...
Does soaking a clove per gallon overnight and watering/bathing the birds with that have the same effect? Or is that too weak of a solution? 

After using both I found that I have better results with using the caps, either because of a better concentration, or the fact that some birds don't drink enough of the garlic water because it smells/tastes funny.The diluted garlic water is beneficial, for prevention, but when using for treatment I opt for the caps.


I generally use ACV about once per week in the drinking water. I could alternate that with garlic water and clear water. Anyone have a recommended routine?[/QUOTE]

I do two days per week of a garlic clove and alternate two days of ACV. That leaves three days that I either have plain water or do vitamins/probiotics. I'm sure that is fine for the indoor birds.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks Treesa- 
Once this little bout with worms is over I hope that by keeping the birds indoors and getting a good acv/garlic/vitamins routine going, I can prevent further issues. There is nothing finer than a healthy flock of beautiful birds!!! I just love them to pieces and hate to see them in any kind of distress.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*Just an update...*

Well the little racer's droppings appear to be clearing up now. No more worms, and the color/consistency is getting better too. Hopefully we're out of the woods!

Thanks everyone for your helpful advice. So glad for this forum. Don't know what I would do without it!

(Incidentally, Snowflake the fantail rescue has begun to show a real interest in this little one. He alternately struts his stuff and crouches down mooning and groaning pitifully in her direction...They may even end up being a couple eventually. Who knows!)


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Karen,

Sounds like a wonderful update, you know they feel good when they show an interest in the birds and world around them.  

Thank you for providing this bird a wonderful home.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Once you have got them dewormed, you can pretty much give them a garlic capsule once a week and that also aids in the prevention of unwanted intestinal guests. It is safe, and works well for an immune booster too.
> 
> The chapparell tea works well for a good cleansing, but watch out when they poop.


Question, how do you administer the garlic capsules and chapparell tea?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TheSnipes said:


> Question, how do you administer the garlic capsules and chapparell tea?


You administer the garlic cap down the throat. I usually slick it down with a drop of Neem and put it down the back of throat-over the tongue, gently push down and allow the bird to swallow.

Chapparell can be made into a tea or drop cap down throat.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> You administer the garlic cap down the throat. I usually slick it down with a drop of Neem and put it down the back of throat-over the tongue, gently push down and allow the bird to swallow.
> 
> Chapparell can be made into a tea or drop cap down throat.


Now that's a surprise. I would have thought the garlic capsules too large to push down their throats; so I was thinking maybe you emptied it onto some seeds or into the water. Thanks for the info...


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I have another issue now with "Lady Luck" who had the worms.
After the 3-in-1 was done her droppings did go back to normal for a day or so. But now she's been passing large, very watery green poops for a couple of days. Toward the evening, they are mostly water, with a bit of green spaghetti and some white urates.

I've given her some active culture yogurt via eyedropper but it does not seem to have helped. All of my birds are eating a mixture of vitamin enriched wild bird seed (Pennington's) and pellets. I've also been using a feather enhancing liquid vitamin in their water. 

I've read (forget where) that a few drops of Kaopectate or pink bismuth via eyedropper can help for the watery droppings but I'm not sure I want to try that without confirming.

The bird is feisty as ever. Not sure what could be the cause...
Any ideas?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you can post pictures of the droppings, this would be helpful in addition
to the description. Do you have a schedule in place for treating Coccidiosis,
Trichomonas and Worms, basically your 'known devils'?

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> If you can post pictures of the droppings, this would be helpful in addition
> to the description. Do you have a schedule in place for treating Coccidiosis,
> Trichomonas and Worms, basically your 'known devils'?
> 
> fp


Hi fp!
The "3-in-1" I had just finished treating her with was for Worms (which she did have but they're gone now) Coccidiosis and Canker. What is Trichomonas?

I will try to get photos tomorrow - just cleaned the cage.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Karen, i love your bird pics!! Cant wait to meet them! Very pretty, i have never actually SEEN a fancy pigeon. 
Trichomonas are what causes canker, most pigeons always have SOME in these organisms in them, and if these organisms stay at a certain number, then the bird may or may not become affected badly. the number has to go up to a certain point, that is why a lot of squeakers/babies get it, because of the parents feeding crop milk and sloughing off some of these thrichomonas off during feeding into the baby, then the number goes up and baby is in trouble. sometimes, the baby can become somewhat immune because of the constant exposure to these, although i dont know that fact for sure, i read it somewhere.
also, another thing i heard, is when you have a bird with canker, if you treat it to the point tha it has NO trichomonas left, it will leave the bird susceptible to getting canker again. dont know if that is true? which is scary for a bird treated with canker then released into wild. I am scared to release any right now because of the canker epidemic here.
So, MA really sucks for bird vets and rehabbers, huh? you're like the 20th person somehow involved with birds that has had trouble finding anyone.
Bye Karen, god luck with your birdie, keep us posted! Are all your birds tame, or are some still very skittish?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amoonswirl, not to worry, Trichomonas is the same as "Canker". 
It could be something as simple
as needing to replenish the good/helpful bacteria in the digestive system
or perhaps an issue w/reinfection. Did you give the birds any human
grade probiotics after the compound medications? Did you clean the cage
before the meds were stopped?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Think of "Canker" as slang, for the medical term of Trichomonas.
Trichomonads are protozoal organisms which cause the disease
state of Trichomonas. Our birds live in what is known as a state
of equilibrium w/the Trichomonads when not in the actual disease
state. When the populations get too high and converge/commence
'eating' away or destroying the tissue in the bird, then it is no
longer in a state of equilibrium and has detoured into the disease
state.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> .......that is why a lot of squeakers/babies get it, because of the parents feeding crop milk and sloughing off some of these thrichomonas off during feeding into the baby, then the number goes up and baby is in trouble. sometimes, the baby can become somewhat immune because of the constant exposure to these, although i dont know that fact for sure, i read it somewhere.
> 
> *Frequently, it's actually the transferance of the Trichomonads to the baby that helps to build an immunity for the baby. But if the parent has actually
> moved into the disease state then the baby gets more exposure than
> ...


*Hope this helps,*

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Hope this is helpful to others*

If a rehabber in the Boston area is needed, I did make contact with the Tufts Wildlife Center yesterday in hopes it would be of benefit to Moxie. Unfortunately for her, there is no public transportation from where she is to there. They do see pigeons and are open every day of the week with limited weekend hours. The number there is, 508-839-7918


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I think Moxie may have to cobble something together in a similar way that
I have to here in the Bay Area, Charis. Some places are great for certain 
situations but not for others. If a broken wing that isn't fixable and releasable,
then the bird will be euthanized at Wildcare. But for the same token, Wildcare
took what....17 babies? when I needed their help placing lots of babies for
care. Tufts is probably usable in some circumstances, it's just finding out
which situations would work and which wouldn't. Maybe Lin Hansen could
get more of that kind of information for Moxie.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Karen, it may be that your pigeon still has worms. 

Worms can be extremely hard to get rid of in some cases because it is a continuing cycle of eggs being laid. We had to bring in one of our prized (to us) pigeons last Thanksgiving day. She had lost a tremendous amount of weight so we had a stool culture done and found she had worms. We wound up having to treat her at least 4 times with various worm medications. She also had to be hand fed for a while to put back some of the weight she had lost. She is now back in the aviary and maintaining a good weight. (She is the pigeon I use as my avatar.)

If you can, get another stool culture done and maybe get some Pyrantel from your vet and give her this wormer orally and then repeat in 10 days. You may even have to wait about a month and treat her again.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Karen, it may be that your pigeon still has worms.


Aaargh. Thanks for the heads up Maggie. I didn't think of that.
Will look into it. 

Glad to hear you managed to get rid of them in your prized pij.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Amoonswirl, not to worry, Trichomonas is the same as "Canker".
> It could be something as simple
> as needing to replenish the good/helpful bacteria in the digestive system
> or perhaps an issue w/reinfection. Did you give the birds any human
> ...


Hi fp,
After treatment, I gave each of them yogurt with active cultures. And later some ACV in the water. She was the only bird to have any visible signs of worms to begin with so it could be reinfection. 

I did clean the cage after treatment but I probably could've done a better job disinfecting


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Karen, i love your bird pics!! Cant wait to meet them! Very pretty, i have never actually SEEN a fancy pigeon.
> Trichomonas are what causes canker, most pigeons always have SOME in these organisms in them, and if these organisms stay at a certain number, then the bird may or may not become affected badly. the number has to go up to a certain point, that is why a lot of squeakers/babies get it, because of the parents feeding crop milk and sloughing off some of these thrichomonas off during feeding into the baby, then the number goes up and baby is in trouble. sometimes, the baby can become somewhat immune because of the constant exposure to these, although i dont know that fact for sure, i read it somewhere.
> also, another thing i heard, is when you have a bird with canker, if you treat it to the point tha it has NO trichomonas left, it will leave the bird susceptible to getting canker again. dont know if that is true? which is scary for a bird treated with canker then released into wild. I am scared to release any right now because of the canker epidemic here.
> So, MA really sucks for bird vets and rehabbers, huh? you're like the 20th person somehow involved with birds that has had trouble finding anyone.
> Bye Karen, god luck with your birdie, keep us posted! Are all your birds tame, or are some still very skittish?


Hi Moxie!
Thanks for your kind wishes & advice!
Hope you can come meet my birds soon. They're mostly tame but they don't go out of their way to come sit on me or anything. (The 2 newest ones are a bit more skittish but they're pretty calm & seem to like attention & petting once I manage to catch them.)

Yeah - MA sux for bird vets. Or at least this area does. Hope your little patients are doing well. Seems like summer has brought on a wave of infection in your area. Hope it gets better soon.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If your bird had worms long enough to go into the auto-infest mode, eggs may
not show up in the droppings. In fact, it's not a given that you will find the eggs yet they could still have them. If you don't have some one locally who 
will do lab work only, you might be able to find a lab that would be willing 
to do some diagnostics, otherwise, you could mail to one of the pigeon houses.
You really want to check for coccidiosis as well, and that is something that
will readily show.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> If your bird had worms long enough to go into the auto-infest mode, eggs may
> not show up in the droppings. In fact, it's not a given that you will find the eggs yet they could still have them. If you don't have some one locally who
> will do lab work only, you might be able to find a lab that would be willing
> to do some diagnostics, otherwise, you could mail to one of the pigeon houses.
> ...


All I can say is, "I HATE WORMS!!!"
Are the worm eggs not affected by the wormer? Bleh.

I know that the vet I took my birds to before will insist on a visit which costs megabucks. And extra insult too because she knows nothing about doves or pigeons. So I'll have to see about the mail-in.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Do the mailer for coccidiosis and plan on periodically treating for worms.
Did this bird share a cage? I'll look for a couple of links for you.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

From this link:

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/budgietiel.html#Parasitic

Authored by Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P., Highlighting is mine:

*"I recommend that birds be periodically dewormed, at least once or twice, during routine first examination, with pyrantel pamoate, even if fecal parasite examinations are negative. This is because the gastrointestinal tract transit time is so fast in birds that worm eggs do not concentrate in the fecals (as they do in dogs and cats), and it is not only possible, but likely, to miss ascarids on a fecal exam.*I have performed countless second opinions on small birds with GI problems that have had negative tests for worms, yet, when I dewormed them, they passed roundworms! A very interesting paper was published a few years ago about this very problem, out of the University of Georgia.* If a bird passes roundworms, it should be periodically dewormed for the rest of its life, as pathologists have found that larvae may encyst in the tissues and be released during times of stress, resulting in additional worms infesting the intestines.*

Dosages:

Pyrantel pamoate: 4.5 mg/kg PO q7-10 days


Praziquantel: 9 mg/kg IM (for cestodes)

Note: fenbendazole can cause fatal hepatopathies, especially in cockatiels, and should not be used in pet birds routinely, also causes feather abnormalities resembling PBFD if administered when bird is molting."

Colin Walker recommends treating for worms three times a year with or with out diagnostics.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Hi fp,
I've been using Global's 3-in-1 which has the following active ingredients:
Amprolium
Ronidazole
Oxybendazole

Although this bird showed no signs of illness, she began passing roundworms a day or so into the first treatment. There's a recommended schedule for the 3-in-1 on the package. Something like once every 4 months and directly before/after shows and races.

The good news is that her droppings appear to be drying up somewhat as of tonite. Hope that trend continues. Regardless - it sounds like I'd be wise to treat her again soon "just in case" these worms are sticking around. 

Thanks for all of your help & concern!!


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