# very light pigeon



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

Hi guys,
Today I got a very light feral. His bone which goes from his mouth to the center of the tail had almost no meat around it. He tried to fight me a little. I fed him and I think it becaome stronger. I left him in the house with food and water but he ate very little compared to other pijies I had before. very worried.


----------



## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

well in the begining they dont usually eat or drink. maybe in a few hours


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Sk8er,

When birds are extremely emaciated it takes a bit for their digestive system to start working again. You first want to hydrate them with fluids and perhaps a couple of times before feeding. Then start with easy to digest foods or liquid baby bird formula and gradually move them up to a seed diet. The bird also needs to be kept warm and as stress free as possible.

Check out this site: http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/Emaciation.html

Good work on saving another, and please keep us posted.

Terry


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Sk8ter,

Thanks for trying to help this pigeon.

Cindy's thread with instructions on saving the life of a pigeon/dove may be helpful here. The bird may not be so bad off that he's going to expire, but it can't hurt to give the bird heat, rehydrate him and keep him quiet before trying to get him to eat and it certainly may help.

Here's the link:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

I'm sure others will be along to offer good advice.

Hope this helps....good luck

Linda


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

How do I know it is just starvation. Also, I have seenthis flock many times and no other birds are as weak as this one. Lastly, he has no injuries on his feat. So possibly no human contact. Any diseases ???


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Diseases? Very likely. I have rehabbed several like that. Fairly often, they're suffering from bad coccidiosis (do you have a medication for that?) that I've proven with my microscope, but not always. Worms can cause it as well. One of the things that he's probably having a hard time doing is staying warm. It's almost vital to get them into a VERY warm environment. I have found that a heat lamp works very well. They can get under it to the point where their feathers are almost hot to the touch.

If you're going to force-feed a bird like that, you need to be very careful not to feed them too much at a time. That's about the surest way to induce crop-slowdown and crop stasis that there is.

Pidgey


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

tomorrow I am gonna do whatever it takes to a rehabber.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Most rehabbers don't utilize diagnostic lab equipment, so usually you take a poop sample to the vet for stuff like that. Good luck overnight and try to keep the fellow warm.

Pidgey


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

so what is the bext way for this bird,
I am extremely troubled by it. Would a poop sample do ?
Maybe a blood test? What else ?

And one more thing I noticed is that the feral had a lot of poop on it tail. And this is not a newborn or anything. Maybe a year or more old. I cant imagine a free flying feral would get crap on its tail. Its like a deposit. The crap is there and stuck. He does NOT have any oil or grease on its beak like some birds do if they eat in grease or oily food or something. Also looks LIKE he has NOT taken a bath in a long time as the poop on its tail will come off. He has no signs of human restraint. 
Infact it has rained so hard in the last 3 days here that his flock has had plent of water. Most of them were wet too. Whaere was this guy trapped?
What I am trying to figure out is where has this poor creature been ?

And his dropping have little solid and lot of liquid so I am not sure that he is dehydrated. Also when I caught him he popped thrice in a row to get away from me.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When a pigeon is emaciated, it's often due to an illness that has kept them from digesting food properly. This one sounds like classic Coccidiosis. When that particular disease gets going real hard, it takes them down exactly as you describe. I have seen full-sized, well-fleshed homing pigeons get it and you'd almost believe that it causes joint pain because they don't want to fly. I've had people call me with "a banded pigeon that won't fly" and I've gone and picked them up, brought them home and done lab to show that they're beginning full-blown Coccodiosis but haven't lost the weight yet. When they do start, it can go pretty fast because they're mostly living on reserves instead of what they're eating. You can never be sure that it's the only disease process going, but they usually respond to treatment with an anti-coccidial medicine (Trade names: Sulmet, Corid, Appertex, Bactrim and several others).

If you're stuck rehabbing such a bird without any medications (not the best idea) then you're really going to have to rely on the supplemental heat, stress-free environment (do as little as possible to make the bird nervous) and supplemental formula feedings. It's pretty tough when they're emaciated, though. I had one several years ago that lived on a perch under a heat lamp only a foot above her for approximately three months before getting somewhat back to normal. She also had worms but wormers can be pretty hard on a bird that's that far down. I'd go with Levamisol for that situation. It can make them throw up but it causes their system to actually perk up.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In case you haven't done a search and read about Coccidiosis, it's a protozoal infection of the intestinal lining that causes ulceration (kinda' like having a bunch of cold-sores through the guts). Virtually all pigeons have it but it's usually dormant unless something triggers it like a lot of stress or another disease process. While every bird in a loft may carry it, you can go along for years without seeing the disease if everyone's a happy, well-fed and well-housed pigeon.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for rescuing another pigeon.

The bird is definitely dehydrated if the poop is runny. Be sure to check out the threads given and use the rehydration sollution first before allowing him to eat. Pigeons don't feel like bathing when they don't feel good.

He may act strong and feisty in front of you, he is just wanting to get away because he doesn't understand you are trying to help. 

After the initial steps have been taken and the bird has had rehydration fluid for about a half hour, observe the bird & allow the bird to eat, just give him a little and see how he does and of course make sure he drinks.

He most likely does have cocci and a few other thing, but I would not stress the bird out with any random medication until you get a fecal done. You can use a cocci medication and you can offer the bird garlic daily in capsule form, that will help bring up the immune system plus it can chase away some parasites. ACV in the water, and definitely probiotics. Probiotics has turned around a few cases of cocci I have seen but those our birds who are still strong and their immune system can take the time to heal naturally. This bird will need more if it is a heavy duty case, as it has to be controlled quickly. A fecal will definitely help diagnose.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Many thanks for caring for this poor pij Sk8er.  
Does he appear more alert today? 

Keeping him on heat & hydrated is extremely important. 
In the Basic Life Saving Steps thread, Linda posted the link in post #4, it describes the different degrees of dehydration. Could you check to see which category your little patient falls in? 

Please do keep us posted on how things are coming along.

Cindy


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi sk8er,

Thanks for helping another needy pigeon. You've gotten good information on 
dehydration care, usually if the poops are watery, you can bet that they are dehydrated. Think of it from the human perspective, if a humany has a bad/prolonged case of diarrhea, they get dehydrated through the loss of fluids.
This link will bring you to The International Modena Club's site at the Doctor's Corner. Scroll down to Coccidiosis and read the information there:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/diagnosis.htm

That's the diagnosis section, you can also go to the main headings at the top of the page and select symptoms, treatments, etc. for a different set of information.

Do you know if your rehabber does fecal samples, or what kinds of diagnostic work he or she does? 

fp


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

Thanks for replying guys. I had sent my previous message before leaving for work. I will take it to the same rehabber who I always take to. This bird has not eaten or drunk anything. Does not want to fly a whole lot. I will force feed it again but this morning it even rejected that.... Also, I am going to make it a small bed...


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi sk8er,

Please let us know how things go at the rehabbers, hope pij hangs in there.

fp


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

He threw up a lot all over the place last night.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

An emaciated bird can't hold very much and you really don't want to feed them very much. What did he throw up--seeds or formula? If it was seeds and he ate them himself then you may be looking at worms. I had one once (still do) that had lost a lot of weight but had a insatiable appetite and would binge and then purge (eat like there was no tomorrow and then throw it ALL up a few hours later). I wormed her and got a bunch (~10; still have the bottle full) out of her. They can block the intestines such that most solid food can't go through. In such a case, you can feed the bird thin formula and it will likely go through but let a big ole' piece of field corn go down and it's gonna' end up comin' back up.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

When they are emaciated, they can't really take alot of food at first, but just the salt and sugar solution in water will take the crisis out of the situation alot of times. Maybe just keep on hand a couple of jars of baby formula for when you get a bird of this condition for helping stay them over until you get them to your rehabber. I'm guessing at this point that you are checking all of the insides of their mouths on GP when you get them in.

fp


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

What is GP ?
What do I look for the inside of the mouth ?
And by baby formula you mean human baby forumla or bird baby forumla. I have neither.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think fp means "on general principles" and that you should be doing that any time you get a new bird in. If you can catch it, it's usually because the bird's not doing real well and one of the most common problems is Trichomoniasis which is what feralpigeon is suggesting that you look for.

Pidgey


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

Thanks guys. I dont nkow much about diseases and I have described all the symptons I saw. What more sould I look for for that disese. I can feel the bird is sick. It is morning now andinstead playing around like anormal bird (her cage door being wide open). He is trying to sleep..... Is there any pigeon supply store in the NYC / NJ region where I can go get some meds.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi sk8er,

The throwing up could also be caused by coccidiosis. 

Please read the link fp provided and get the prescribed medications for cocci and have the bird diagnosed. Time is the enemy here.


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

Got a bunch of medicines from the rehabber. He is imporving very very slowly. Need your prayers.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sk8er,

It'd be good for you to educate yourself about some of these disease and how to recognize them. Seeing as how you're doggedly going around picking up sick and hurt pigeons, you might as well bite the bullet and learn a bit in more detail. Start with Coccidiosis and go here:

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_26.pdf

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

sk8er said:


> Got a bunch of medicines from the rehabber. He is imporving very very slowly. Need your prayers.



You have them sk8er. Sometimes it takes a while to get them back on track.
Some members will give KT Exact to a sick bird in a thinned down format. Here is a quote from TAWhatley:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=3346&postcount=3

So if you wanted to just keep some Gerber's on hand, that would work too.

Here are a couple of links on canker/trichomoniasis, Pidgey was correct, that's what I was referring to. A visual inspection of the inside of the mouth is pretty much standard when picking up a sick bird:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM032

http://www.albertaclassic.com/trichomonas/trichomonas.php

The second link is a very good one and you can use the site search engine at the top of the page to look things up.

You should probably keep a 'folder' in your bookmarks for pigeon illnesses so that you can refer back when you need to.

We don't always see a bird w/as severe a condition as shown in many of the pictures in links, but it is to give us an idea of what to look for.

Hope he continues to show improvement, please keep us posted.

fp


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

It died this morning. Passed away quietly in the night I think. Last night when I was giving it is twice a day meds (best meds said the rehabber) It started closing its eyes so bad like it wanted to sleep. It was sleeping in my hand. So I put it her cage. She was alive till 2 -3 at night because I saw here sitting on her legs. Cage door was not locked but closed. There was another ferocious pigeon I have whose toe got removed and he was sleeping in the same room. I woke up this morning and my sick pigeon was dead . COuld the ferocious one have killed her. But there are no signs of any activity like that. The cage door was closed.

And btw this pigeon seemed to be doing well. His poop had turned green except 
till yesterday when it was absolutely white and some red in it too. And the same exact poo is present underneath it when it died . Plus a lot more enrgetic . He rank water. Ate seed when I force fed him. One thing which troubled me never ate seed on his own and his crop was always full. Could it be he was not digesting any seed . His mouth was open when he died and eyes closed 99% of thw ay up ( slight slit on the top ) .


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi sk8er - I am so sorry to read of the pigeon's death after you tried so hard to save it. I sound like a broken record but, sometimes, no matter how hard we try, it simply is not enough. They are often just too sick to recover.

I doubt very seriously your other pigeon had anything to do with this pigeon's death. If the poop was red it could have been coccidiosis. We have also seen blood in a little hen that was eggbound.

When we lose a feral that we've tried to rehab we always try to learn from that so, just maybe, the next one can be saved.

You tried your best and I commend you for that effort.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi sk8er,

I'm so sorry to hear about your rescue. You did the best you could for the pigeon, it sometimes is just not meant to be as we get them too far along in the disease process to turn things around for them in time. I doubt your 'ferocious' pij had anything to do with the weaker pij passing as they weren't even in the same cage. 

The crop feeling always full, regardless of its feeding amount sounds like it may have been at least part of the problem. Could have been deposits of growth from canker, or crop stasis. As Maggie mentioned, the blood in the feces could have been coccidiosis. But there could have been some kind of organ failure/problem that also was involved. We will probably never know for sure.

The pigeon passed knowing that it was being cared for and in a safe environment, this was the kindest gift that you could have given to this ailing bird and I'm sure the pigeon appreciated the safety net that you provided in it's final days. Again, I'm sorry to hear that he/she didn't make it.

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Absolutely white and some red in it too" is about as bad of a sign as you can have. The absolutely white part often signifies dehydration and the red part is probably intestinal hemorrhage (bleeding) but could come from the kidneys, oviduct, liver...

Could have been Coccidiosis; could have been a severe Capillaria (threadworm) infestation; could have been cancer; could have been an infection...

When it comes to what's going on inside an animal (us included) in a severe disease or injury process, a doctor is blind without equipment. And with all the stuff that we've created, we're still blind to a lot under the best of circumstances. That said, there's no way any of us can, in this case, tell you what this bird died of based on all the description you've given.

Many rehabbers will get a bird in and give it a cocktail designed to stop major infections, coccidiosis, worms and canker (did I miss anything?). When they do that, they often have a pretty good success rate. If you're shootin' blind (not using a vet or your own lab), that's going to be about as good as you can do. You might consider getting set up to do it that way.

Pidgey


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

Could it have been stress? Because he was getting better. The rehab said he was on the bext meds. How could it be ?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They often appear to be getting better when they're actually dying. Even people do that. And sometimes the medications come too late--the damage is done.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I think stress can be a factor and can contribute to using up reserved strength but like Pidgey said, any bird will cover up how they feel because in the wild that is the only way they can survive.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Don't think it could be wholly stress, if that were true, lord knows they could just be dropping from the skies. Certainly, they are human friendly enough that it shouldn't be the determining cause, and if the other pij was a bit on the ferocious side, don't think that would get it either. It's hard to accept that they move on when they are doing better initially from the treatment. But even in the exactly appropriate drug for an illness, with the exactly correct dosage, it can come too late to reverse some illnesses let alone what else may have been going on for the pij. 

fp


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

I was and am shocked. Lets plainly look at the medical symptons something it could not have faked:

1. Change poop color
2. It becoming more energetic right after force feeding
3. It drinking water
4. Point whic worries me : It not eating seed. Could it because some of the "green" medicine I have been giving him stuck in its crop. It threw up a lot too and although it did not eat seed, its crop was always full, maybe from the force feeding. Definately not dehydration because it used to drin k on its own and I would give it drinks too during giving medicine. 

I went and buried the bird. It is very hard on me.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

sk8er said:


> I was and am shocked. Lets plainly look at the medical symptons something it could not have faked:
> 
> 1. Change poop color
> 2. It becoming more energetic right after force feeding
> ...


Hi sk8er, 

All white with red in it isn't good. The white cap on poop is the analogous to our urine. Red suggests possible bleeding. Think this why Maggie mentioned it (red) could possibly be from coccidiosis as ulcerations in the intestinal tract can occur in the advanced stages of this illness. But the all white is up for grabs isn't it? I mean to say, that we just don't know for sure because there are several things that may have resulted in this as Pidgey was explaining.

On becoming more energetic after seed pops, it could be that the whole act itself kind of stimulated it in an overall sense as opposed to directly being the result of getting nutrition from the seeds. Just trying to give a possibility, not that we can say for sure.

About the green medicine, do you know exactly what this medicine was? Was it in pill form or water? It would be a good idea when you bring the birds to your rehabber to ask them to write down the name of the med and the dose rate, or you bring a pad and write the info down. Then we have something to work with. It's just hard to know from that description alone.
If the medicine 'stuck' in its crop, then for sure there was something else going on w/the bird. It shouldn't have. When we do a visual inspection of the inside of the mouth and see no visible signs of the canker, it doesn't mean that they don't still have it. We just don't see it. The growths associated with it can be elsewhere in the body, in the crop as well from photos I've seen.

Sk8er, you do so much to help the pigeons in your area, please don't be too hard on yourself, if it weren't for your intervention, this bird could have passed on in a much harsher way. You provided a safe harbor for this pigeon. Even the most diligent rehabbers lose a patient from circumstances beyond their ability to intercede.

fp


----------



## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Sk8ter~ feral pigeon is right. Please don't be hard on yourself. We all try our best to pigeons and birds that cross our paths in need. I lost two feral pigeon rescues in the last year. We try and we do the best we can to make them better, but sometimes all we can do is provide them safe and comforting environment. Please keep helping rescues that you may find and thank you for caring.


----------



## sk8er (Jan 8, 2006)

Thanks guys. But how do you explain that it was actually eating food when I caught it and suddenly it stopped eating althogether. I mean I know pigeons when captuard dont eat a awhole lot when they are hungry etc... But they finally do. But this one stopped eating altogether . 

Secondly,
It passwed away wuth its eyes not fully closed. Just as it was "trying" to close it and with his beak open. Secondly< I found him dead at around 8.30 am. But he must have died early in the monring at about 6 - 6.30 . Right about the time that ferocious pigeon woke up and was sitting near its cage . Although he could not have entered he could have scared it. It has done it before as in when I used to give them both their medicine, it used to make fighting sounds to the sick pigeon . If that ferocious one had anything to do with this poor birds death, I am gonna bury it alive right next to the sick one .


----------



## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

sk8er said:


> Thanks guys. But how do you explain that it was actually eating food when I caught it and suddenly it stopped eating althogether. I mean I know pigeons when captuard dont eat a awhole lot when they are hungry etc... But they finally do. But this one stopped eating altogether .
> 
> Secondly,
> It passwed away wuth its eyes not fully closed. Just as it was "trying" to close it and with his beak open. Secondly< I found him dead at around 8.30 am. But he must have died early in the monring at about 6 - 6.30 . Right about the time that ferocious pigeon woke up and was sitting near its cage . Although he could not have entered he could have scared it. It has done it before as in when I used to give them both their medicine, it used to make fighting sounds to the sick pigeon . If that ferocious one had anything to do with this poor birds death, I am gonna bury it alive right next to the sick one .


Sk8er, You described the pigeon stools having signs of red in it, and as others mentioned previously, she had to have had some serious internal problems. I am curious, what kind of medications did your rehabber give you, and were there directions given to you. Your pigeons health most likely went downhill after you took her in, which may explain why her condition worsened.If you had to wait a while to get the meds, it may have contributed to her condition getting worse. Time is a key factor in saving a life. At least, you have the medications now on hand for a future rescue and you will be better prepared.

It sounds like she was having problems breathing, which may explain the open mouth.

As far as your "furocious" pigeon, it is normal for it (and most likely it is a him) to flare up, dance around, strut and make a lot of noise to another pigeon~ it is what they do. My male pet pigeons will sometimes interact well with one another, and then at times, they try to play the dominate"I am stronger than you" game. I usually let them have their private flight time, but when they are all out together, they are closely supervised.

Now, sk8er...you indicated that if the ferocious one had anything to do with your sick pigeons death, you were going to bury it alive. I realize you are upset, but that is not the solution. It would be very wrong for you do make the other pigeon suffer. That idea is totally unacceptable. 

The pigeon you rescued obviously had some medical problems, and as earlier explained to you, coccidiosis may have been your pigeons downfall. Most wild ferals have it in them, but does not surface totally until they are weakened. I assure you the other pigeon had nothing to do with its death. 

Just remember that you may be better prepared next time. Most of us, including myself, have been down that road.


----------

