# International Rehydration Solution



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway, I am curious to go over this...sounds promising, but I can find nothing about it on 'google' searches.


Did find this -

"Since its development in the 1960s, oral rehydration solution has been credited with saving the lives of millions of children throughout the world who suffer from dehydration caused by severe diarrhea. The solution is a mixture of water, glucose, sodium, potassium, and electrolytes, which help children recover and retain vital fluids and nutrients. The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) distributes oral rehydration solution worldwide. Similar solutions are sold in U.S. supermarkets under different brand names such as Pedialyte, CeraLyte, and Infalyte. "


Okay, so far so good...sounds great to me.


I would like to know more details about what 'electrolytes' and what proportions OF these various things and exactly what these things are substance/material wise, to add TO Water for making this, or will 'u.n.i.c.e.f.' send me a Case or two just because I have 'blue' eyes?


Lol...


Anyway, this sounds so much better than what I knew to do, I think it would be good for us all to learn how to make it, or, find out where to get it, or both.


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Isn't that the same stuff as Pedialyte?


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Go to the Pigeon-Talk page, click on search & type in International Rehydrating Solution & you should find *29 threads* in which it's mentioned.

It's also mentioned in the 'Basic Life Saving Steps' thread. Here's the link to it.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Kim....yes, that's what I was thinking too...Pedialyte and even Gatorade have the components of the water, salt, sugar and electrolytes.

Linda


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Phil, 
International Rehydrating Solution (IRS) is basically a 'home made version' of Lactated Ringers that is used in hospitals for rehydrating and/or administering meds via an IV.

I suggest it *a lot* to our members, as it's simple to make & most kitchens have the ingredients (to a cup of room temp. water add a pinch each of salt & sugar.) Administer accordingly.

Cindy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

When you use search engines you have to try various combinations. I did a serach for "rehydration solution" and it came uo with the "International Rehydration Solution" on this site.

http://www.squirrels.info/distress/illness.htm

As Cindy said, it is an emergency measure using common kitchen ingredients that can be found worldwide (ie internationally) and can be used when and where manufactured versions are not easily available. 

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, like the others, I believe all these components are in Pedialyte. We try to keep this on hand all the time and if we run out, Gatoraid can be used as a substitute.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Maggie,

I don't think that we have pedyalite and gatorade in the UK and I expect many other countries are in the same situation.. There may be something similar in some of the bigger supermarkets, but a first time rescuer wouldn't have it in the kitchen cupboard whereas they, or a neighbour, are likely to have sugar and salt. That is why the International Rehydration Solution is recommended as a basic step for saving the life of a pigeon or dove.

Experienced rescuers will have something a bit more sophisticated because they are expecting to have an emergency at some time.

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, you're absolutely right!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Maggie. I was beginning to worry that I had misunderstood Phil's question...there have been changes and deviations to his original post during the day... and that he was not asking about the ingredients of the IRS to advise new rescuers but was asking what he as a rehabber should or could use use. Obviously both questions would have different answers.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Thanks Maggie. I was beginning to worry that I had misunderstood Phil's question...there have been changes and deviations to his original post during the day... and that he was not asking about the ingredients of the IRS to advise new rescuers but was asking what he as a rehabber should or could use use. Obviously both questions would have different answers.
> 
> Cynthia



Hi Cynthia, 


Lol, sorry to have appeared ambiguous...


I would like to know the recipe for making any or all of these.


I like the idea of the Potassium being an ingredient, which of course regular Salt and Sugar will not have to offer.


People who have Hypertension usually have 'salt substitute' on hand, which is a Potasium based 'Salt' instead of Sodium based, Potasium Chloride I think...and this possibly might be an easy thing to get, and, to have on hand and might be excellent.


Too, off and on for years, I have bought little packets at Health Food Stores of various powders intended to be added to Water for making refreshing beverages...


One of these is called "Electrolyte Stamina Power Pack' and comes in little foil packets as powder.


Ingredients shown here - 


http://www.traceminerals.com/products/elstpwrpak.html


Pigeon and Dove youngsters ( or anyone else Bird wise of any age, ) seem either to like the 'Orange' flavor or at least not to mind it.

In theory, the 'Cranberry' might have some additional benifits and merits but I have not tried it on anyone yet to see how they like the flavor.


Anyway, when I have had these on hand, or similar products, I have used them for general adding to Water for convelesent Birds or youngsters and possibly it would work well as a re-hydration solution though I had not really decided to use it for that yet, but, now that I am almost 'thinking' ( a rare event for this weary brain!) it seems like it might be just dandy.


These cost something like 35 cents a packet singley, and one packet of course will make an honest medium large glass full, which is a lot Bird-wise...

Thbe powder can be added to formula also, which I do sometimes...

Any Health food Store would have them or something like it anyway.


Whatcha-all think?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too, just occurred to me...this ( 'Electolyte Stamina Power Pack' ) might be something worth considering for suspected PPMV Pigeons or other Birds possibly effected by Viral or other odd mischiefs...


I know my own original PPMV Hen did seem to me to benefit from more or less similar ingredients I was managing to concoct to add as powders to her Seeds with a light glistening of Olive Oil so they stuck...and the extra Vitamines and so on, trace Minerals, and the "B" Vitamines especially, I suspect aid them in combating the Virus.


Certainly, anything we can do to strengthen and nourish their immune systems will aid them in combating a Viris or any other illness od infection or problems of whatever sort.


I have two suspected PPMV Pigeons presently, and they are both VERY shy Birds, ( I have made some headway, to where now they each allow me to do some 'Who's got a Tummy? YOU'VE got a Tummy!" and this makes changing out feed and water bowls SO much calmer!) but I think I will get them onto some Special teas and these Stamina Electolytes and see what changes may occur for them with these...


I am of a mind to seriously consider that Powdered Goldenseal and Echinechia together, can also offer very definite benefit not only to PPMV Birds, but also to those of vague yet serious presentations where we do not know quite what to do.

I think Oregano extracts also offer possibly excellent potentials also, and I intend to try reading up on those today sometime.


I have in fact used the powdered Echinechia and Goldenseal as semi strong Teas for them to drink ( and they were happy to drink these, and sometimes I added some powdered Licorice Root to sweeten it ) , as well as adding to formula or Seeds, and I have felt that this did very definitely help various Birds who were on some plateau otherwise with their regular meds, or who were going down hill in spite of the meds I and or the Vet thought right for their troubles.


I know I am wandering a little here, and naive, but you know, one thought leads to another...and I feel these things are very worth exploring...


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Here's the definition of electrolytes from Wikipedia. One word of caution about Wikipedia the definitions can be edited by anybody, so you should check the answers when you look up information. In this case the definition is correct (I minored in Chemistry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte

Principles of shock and fluid therapy in special species

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...rid=4421&md5=4c71deb18e3537ee1768a9412a82c4a2

However, I am not in any way advocating that anyone attempt to administer fluids by IV unless directed to do so under the direct supervision of a licensed veternarian with the correct sterile equipment.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Phil, does this help?

From "Practical Wildlife Care" by Les Stocker:

It is possible to mix your own equivalent oral rehydrating salts by using the following ingredients:

7g sodium chloride
5g sodium bicarbonate
3g potassium chloride
40g glucose
2 litres water

The solution must be mixed thoroughly and discarded after 24 hours.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Phil, does this help?
> 
> From "Practical Wildlife Care" by Les Stocker:
> 
> ...


Hi Cynthia, 



Nice...thank you!


Whether one mixes this themselves, or compares to existing products, it is a valuuable reference list for ingrediants and proportions.


I appreciate it..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bump...



I'd like to see this topic have a little more play if possible...


Now too, Ringer's Lactate or the likes can be injected sub-cutaceous, sometimes in the area of the Legs meeting the skin there on their lower sides...unde thr ample flexible skin there, along the thigh.


I have seen my Vet do this, but I myself have demured to try...


Also, I understand that a similar method, of injecting rehydraiton fluids into the cavity of the peritonium directly, is also an excellent resort in cases of extreme emergency, and similarly, I have managed without this resort, though I recognise it to be valuable in cases where time is of the utmost urgency, and, one has the skill and famailiarity to do it.


For me, for my situations, I am interested primarily in determing the best re-hydration formulas, for cases of urgent dehydration needing address and effective remediaiton.



Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

The technique you describe using subcutaneous fluids under the skin of the legs is called clysis. I had a cat in kidney failure that needed it (with cats you use the skin up by the neck and shoulders as it is so loose there) and I gave him fluids once a week that way for about six months. The vet gave me the set up and I think it was Dextrose 5% and water that was used. I think you can probably get Ringers or D5W at a pharmacy to have on hand. I have never seen fluids given directly into the peritoneum, only removed from there.

As I was reading this thread another thought came to mind. If you have a compounding pharmacist in LV, you might talk to him about IRC. He might have a formula for you or work with you in developing one for birds. He might also be able to tell you where to get the less available electrolytes to mix your own.

And a last thought, if you do not already have it, you might find the PDR for Herbal Medicines a good reference book to have on hand. 

Margarret


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

For those of you reading this, the actual term of giving fluid under the skin is hypodermoclysis. It is an INVASIVE technique. You cannot just inject water under the skin. It has to be sterile and sterile technique must be used. In addition, the fluid must be compatible with the body chemistry of the recipient. You have to know the anatomy well so you can use natural occurring pockets to avoid discomfort for the recipient. I'm hesitant to even discuss an invasive technique here, but it can be and has been lifesaving in certain situations. 

Margarret


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Margarret, I'll add my 2 cents here and agree with you that it is an invasive procedure and should only be done by well trained people.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Margarret, I'll add my 2 cents here and agree with you that it is an invasive procedure and should only be done by well trained people.


This is an excerpt from the 'hydration' section of the East Valley Wildlife's Guide to Raising and Rehabilitating Doves and Pigeons that was given to me by our local, licensed, wildlife rehabber.

_Depending on the cause and percentage of dehydration, reversing this condition can take up to 24 hours. If the bird is alert, he may be rehydrated orally (by mouth) by either using an eye dropper and putting drops along his beak every few minutes, or he may be gavaged (tubed). These are the two safest and easiest methods for beginning rehabbers.

If the bird is not swallowing on his own or fully alert, then he must be given fluids under the skin (sub-q method). Be certain you learn how to do this before you try for the first time as all birds have extensive air sacs throughout their body that should not be punctured. Also, a needle in the wrong place may paralyze the legs._

Cindy

Just to clarify:
I copied the above exactly how it was written, however, let me go one step further by saying that 'sub-q' is the abbreviation for Subcutaneous which means: Located, found, or placed just beneath the skin.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Cindy - that reinforces that we need to be very careful.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> Phil,
> 
> The technique you describe using subcutaneous fluids under the skin of the legs is called clysis. I had a cat in kidney failure that needed it (with cats you use the skin up by the neck and shoulders as it is so loose there) and I gave him fluids once a week that way for about six months. The vet gave me the set up and I think it was Dextrose 5% and water that was used. I think you can probably get Ringers or D5W at a pharmacy to have on hand. I have never seen fluids given directly into the peritoneum, only removed from there.
> 
> ...



Thanks Margarret...!


You are a Gem...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Margarret, I'll add my 2 cents here and agree with you that it is an invasive procedure and should only be done by well trained people.




Hi Margarret, Maggie, 


Quite 'so'...


And since it is also about methods re-hydrating, it deserves discussion so we may learn of it as general knowledge. Even if only as something to ask our Vet TO do for us when we have appropriate Candidates.


My Vet actually showed me how to do the 'hypodermoclysis' recently, and I appreciated the compliment!


However, I do not feel competant to try it as of yet, though one day I likely shall feel I am 'there'.

My Vet has watched my adminster Muscular injections of Antibiotics, which he felt I did very well, and again, I was flattered, but I felt 'iffy' as far as my confidence was concerned.

This is fine, I have managed well all these years without giving injections, and without needing to do sub-curacious injections of rehydration.

But, I know, some of the Birds I have ministered to would have done better, faster, if I had known how to do these things with right knowledge, and earned confidence of being competant and informed.



In time, I will arrive at that condition and these will then be in my Tool Box for occasions when their use is justified.


Thanks you two..!


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> This is an excerpt from the 'hydration' section of the East Valley Wildlife's Guide to Raising and Rehabilitating Doves and Pigeons that was given to me by our local, licensed, wildlife rehabber.
> 
> _Depending on the cause and percentage of dehydration, reversing this condition can take up to 24 hours. If the bird is alert, he may be rehydrated orally (by mouth) by either using an eye dropper and putting drops along his beak every few minutes, or he may be gavaged (tubed). These are the two safest and easiest methods for beginning rehabbers.
> 
> ...




Hi Cindy, 


Yes, 24 Hours is a good threshold for their absorbing the rehydration solution.


Does "12" hours lead time for rehydrating seem decent to then consider thin liquidy feeds to your appreciations?


That has been my acceptance anyway, 12 hours to rehydrate, then commence thin soupy feeds...



Not long ago, I was brought a young 'Squeaker' who had been five days in a cardboard box with no food, no water.

How he was still alive at all, amazed me. He was closed-eyes and very very wilty and would have siesures if he tried to move at all.


He really DID need the hypodermoclysis proceedure, but I was ignorant of it, and did not know about it as a recourse.

I had heard of the peritonial proceedure, but I dared not try it.


I adminstered rehydration via having him sip out of the Nipple, as I steadied his Head and Neck and so on...and for a time, all went well and he was improving.

He was extremely wobbley and spazzy and not fully conscious most of the time...and, I/we had a mishap with his sipping, where he aspirated some of the rehydrating solution.


He got over that, became conscious all of the time ( unless sleeping of course) and later, he aspirated some thin formula when sipping.

I was an idiot, somehow not properly realizeing, that I should have been tube feeding both the rehydration solution AND the thin formula later. I knew how, I just forgot about it somehow as an option.


I do not know what was wrong with my mind and memory, but that much is clear, I did the wrong things for that little Pigeon.


He perished, from having aspirated that tiny bit of thin formula, and I felt very sorry and depressed to have done this to him. He had been so encouraged by the attentions and the progress of the rehydration, he was palpably rallying...


Now, from learning, and from mistakes, I know better, and have better options.


I got a similar one in a-while after...and this one, I brought to my Vet for a look-see, since I suspected a fungal infection in the Crop and my ACV-Water was not clearing it up...and he did the 'hypodermoclysis' for this one, whose Crop was not passing the tubed-in rehydration solutions I had adminstered.


All has gone well, if "iffy' for many days...



Anyway...


It is sad for me to find myself learning from making mistakes at an other's expense...but at least if I do learn...the mistakes are not repeated.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This probably applies to the UK only but I would not be surprised if there was similar legislation in other countries. In his book Practical Wildlife Care, Les Stocker states:

"The intraperitoneal route involves entry into a body cavity, this is unnecessary in a first aid situation and should be strictly the province of the veterinary surgeon, as a practice controlled by the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966". So that is that!

About parenteral administration of fluids he says "(Apart from oral fluids) all other fluid preparations are prescription only medicines which should be used under the direction, but not necessarily the presence, of a veterinary surgeon. They are given by injection or via intrevenous cannulae from a drip bag. In all cases they must be used in aseptic practice as their entry point offers a perfect ingress for bacteria and infection."

About oral rehydration he says "Oral fluids can be effective if nothing else is available and if an animal is not severely dehydrated. They are useful as maintenance fluids after an animal is stabilised and before it is drinking and feeding itself. They are not very effective in replacing major fluid deficit especially in shocked animals where its gastrointestinal processes may be compromised. They are in the main more readily absorbed that subcutaneous fluids."

Les Stocker is the founder of St Tiggywinkle Wildlife Teaching Hospital Trust. His Code of Practice for the rehabilitation of British wildlife casualties has been accepted by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

One question struck me about the administration of fluids subQ being invasive...wouldn't the same apply to PMV innoculations given subQ into the neck?



> I'm hesitant to even discuss an invasive technique here, but it can be and has been lifesaving in certain situations.


I agree Margarret, it can be lifesaving but a new rescuer would be unlikely to have the necessary sterile equipment required to do it and an experienced rehabber would not have to be instructed via this forum. 

Cynthia


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just my comments:

I have BO, a baby Grackle that an experienced rehabber DID do subQ to hydrate...worked just fine. Reminded me of when my cat(s) and others (while working for a Vet) had to have this done.

In BO's case, he wasn't THAT bad off but the hydration DID seem to help. 

Phil...with all the experience you have had, could your "good" vet show you how to do the subQ method? Or is that against the rules? I mean if rehabbers can do it, why can't you??? Only problem I see is having someone "assisting" in holding. Too bad I'm not in L.V....I'm VERY good at "holding," having had 7 yrs. with my Vet boss... 

Shi


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

BTW, according to Les Stocker fluid deficit, which will be between 5% and 15% of normal bodyweight (the bird would not survive if dehydration was higher ghan 15%) would be replaced over 2 -3 days, while still providing daily maintenance for those days. So in the first day the bird would receive its maintenance level of fluids + 1/2 the deficit, in the second day it would receive the maintenance level + 1/4 deficit and the the same the third day. After that the maintenance level would be sufficient (According to Colin Walker a healthy 400gm pigeon would take about 45ml a day of water.) 

The 24 hours is the point at which hydration is returning to normal and artificial nutrition by mouth can start. For birds, he recommends Poly Aid, which provides all the nutrients a bird needs until it starts to feed for itself.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> Just my comments:
> 
> I have BO, a baby Grackle that an experienced rehabber DID do subQ to hydrate...worked just fine. Reminded me of when my cat(s) and others (while working for a Vet) had to have this done.
> 
> ...


Hi Shi, 


I am not clear on the actual ethics issues of how or when a Physician may tacitly or overtly show a lay person how to do an otherwise proprietary proceedure, or one which otherwise is understood to be only permitted to be done by an appropriately licenced practioner.


However, he has tacitly demonstrated some things to me, and critiqued my own occasion of adminstering an intermuscular injection to a Pigeon, as he watched ( I had asked him if we might do this, in order for him to evaluate how I did it). But I expect that this can only proceed tacitly, and ethically, could not be allowed to be overt or to go too far.


Now, too, I know he understands that I deal with a lot of Pigeons who are often cantilevered way over a Yawning Grave when I get them.

And that I get them ususally on a Friday evening when he is not back in h is Office till 'Tuesday'. Or as may be...but that often, there is not going to be much other recourse, than me, and what I can do.

Tacitly, I feel he is interested for me to be able to know when TO do some sorts of more or less 'invasive' things, and, for me to be able to learn how to do them correctly...but, this has not been discussed as such in clear forthright language, but rather is a mood of appreciation which is implied, and exists between us...or at least that is how I have interpreted matters to be.


I know of course, that he would never want to see me be impetuous or naive in any invasive maneuver or proceedure, and I would not wish this either of course...and, as for me, I have avoided me doing any invasive maneuvers thus far, but for some few occasions of providing injections of antibiotics to Birds so ill they were on their sides with glazed unblinking eyes...and, both times, I had guessed right or right enough on the Medicine, and they survived and got slowly well and became the picture of health and vigour eventually.

While I did in those two occasions adminster injections, I only did one injection to the Bird, and then followed through with Oral adminstrations...but I felt time was SO urgent, that the injection was to be used to save them, and it did.


Yes...having no one to help hold them IS indeed less than ideal..!




Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> BTW, according to Les Stocker fluid deficit, which will be between 5% and 15% of normal bodyweight (the bird would not survive if dehydration was higher ghan 15%) would be replaced over 2 -3 days, while still providing daily maintenance for those days. So in the first day the bird would receive its maintenance level of fluids + 1/2 the deficit, in the second day it would receive the maintenance level + 1/4 deficit and the the same the third day. After that the maintenance level would be sufficient (According to Colin Walker a healthy 400gm pigeon would take about 45ml a day of water.)
> 
> The 24 hours is the point at which hydration is returning to normal and artificial nutrition by mouth can start. For birds, he recommends Poly Aid, which provides all the nutrients a bird needs until it starts to feed for itself.
> 
> Cynthia



Hi Cynthia, 


Unfortunately, there is no way for a lay practioner to make these kinds of evaluations.


Or at least, I would not know how to say what percentage of hydration a dehydrated Bird has, or has lost.


However, pragmatically, letting the Bird be the judge of such matters in effect...what I have done, is to allow them frequent sessions of drinking ( or, lately, being tube fed) rehydration solution, with no sign I can recall of my having over done it...and, even if 'water' were to be seen getting pooped-out ( and I have not seen this happen, even when I adminstered truely good amounts of fluids spaced over sessions, to where a smallish Squeaker had in fact drank a Tea Cup worth or more, over a 24 hour), one may feel at least that their system is absorbing such as it can, at the pace it can do so, untill their system is satisfied, and, over the course of some days of it, it would be.


Good info..!


Thank you!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

One question struck me about the administration of fluids subQ being invasive...wouldn't the same apply to PMV innoculations given subQ into the neck? Cynthia

Cynthia, Yes, techically it is the same. You are placing a substance, by needle into an individual's body, be it bird or human. Actually the moment the skin is broken it becomes invasive. So all innoculations, pox vaccinations etc. are invasive proceedures. If you want to get really technical, tube feeding is, in human medicine, considered pretty invasive. I have still not done it for that reason, although many here are old hands at it. Like Phil, I have had the vet send me home with IM medication for my birds. He showed me the technique, then off I went. Now, I do have experience giving injections, as I am a nurse, but it is quite a stretch from human to bird. I've given a gazillion shots in my day to **** sapiens, but my hands shook the first time I had to vaccinate for PMV till I got the feel of it. It really needs to be taught as there is plenty of room for error. Phil, you are fortunate to have a vet who is willing to teach you the techniques.

Margarret


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margarret, 




I would be glad to go over 'Tube Feeding' any time you like.

I am comfortable with it, and my methods are completely pedantic and deliberate every time...almost like a Pilot's "Check List" before take off.

I have come to favor particular apparatis, even as others have with theirs.


It is a very valuable thing to be able to do, and truely, when done nicely, is no strain to the Pigeon at all.


There have been many Pigeons pass through here who it would have been much harder to save without it...


How I ever managed before learning to do it, I have no idea..! 

But somehow I did manage, and muddled...and somehow they abided...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

Thank you for your offer. I'll take you up on it the next time I have a situation that needs it. Terry did show me how she does it and it looked fairly simple at the time. Then when I went to try it later on, I stalled out. Fortunately the bird was willing to eat from the syringe with the vet tape over the end. But I know the time will come when I will need the tube technique. With my luck I'll get a dehydrated half comatose crow who will want to take my arm off rather than have me put a tube down it's throat. LOL!

M.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Get some Cotton 'people-baby-stockings' tiny ones, and cut a slit at the right place in the 'heel', for the Beak to poke out of, cut off whatever extra length there may be for it to fit right...so the rest covers their Head...


That takes some of the fight and wiggleys out of them, when they can not see anything...

'Some' anyway...

Lol...




Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Margarret,

I have a video of tube feeding on youtube. Les said he watched two or three times and was able to use the technique successfully. I think that tubing a bird and tubing a human are very different things , because with birds you feed into the crop rather than the stomach. The young ones swallow the tube eagerly once tey know that it provides food.

I have innoculated against PMV after being taught by Helen but that is one of the things that I hate having to do.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Unfortunately, there is no way for a lay practioner to make these kinds of evaluations.


Hi Phil,

Sick, injured or starved birds are assumed to have at least a 5% deficit.

If the skin apppears to be tight, specially over the breastbone and it tents for a while when you pinch it, th eyes look dead and the mouth is dry, then the deficit is between 5% and 10%.

If the mouth is very dry, feet and wing tips are cold, you pinch the skin and it stays pinched,the heartbeat is rapid the bird is still, listlesss and depressed then it is near death with a deficit of 10% - 15%.

You weigh the bird. Say it weighs 300 gms and you assume dehydration of 5% of its body weight. Assume that before dehydration it weighed 310 gms. The fluid deficit is 5% of 310 , which is 15.5 mls. That is what you have to *replace *over 3 days (8 ml the first day, 4 ml the second and 3.5 ml the third) But on top of that each day you also have to give it the fluids that it needs for maintenance, ie the amount of fluid that pigeon of that weight would normally drink in a day if it was healthy.

Remember that fluids must be warmed to 39 degrees centigrade before they are administered.

The higher above 5% that you suspect the deficit is the more urgent veterinary help is so that the right fluids can be administered IV, subQ or intraoseeously.

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, thank you for the explanation. It was easy to understand.

Margarret - here is another who does not tube feed even though we have all the equipment needed. Instead, we use a regular 5 cc or 10 cc syringe, depending on the age of the pigeon, and attach a Catac nipple to it. The nipple itself is about 1 1/2 inches long and goes down the throat far enough. We've been using these about 14 years and have had only one mishap when we squirted the nipple into the crop.  That was early on in our "birding" and the rehabber who trained us was able to work it up from the crop into the throat and pull it out. Now, we super glue every nipple to the syringe. They can be used for several weeks because we sterilize them after each feeding and each bird has their own nipple and syringe.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, 


Thank you for those details...excellent...


Too, here, in the Southern Mojave Desert, especially in Summer, sick or wayward Birds can dehydrate much more rapidly than in cool and humid climes.


People certainly do!


It is very common for people to be stumbleing around, almost fainting, and complaining of feeling stunned and diminished.

If one works out of doors as I used to, you have to drink literally a Gallon and a half or Two Gallons of Liquids a day, or you will start to feel woosey and dopey and off kilter...and even then, even drinking two Gallons paced through out the day, you might only pee a couple of Tea Cups worth finally at night...


Lol...


112, 118, 124 degrees F, or more even some areas ( was 128 outside of Town again a couple weeks ago) , at 4 or 5 percent ambient humidity, takes a lot of Water to stay on top of.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

One advantage of using the electrolyte powders from the health food store is that the beleagered rehabber can drink the leftovers to improve their own health and immune system.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TerriB said:


> One advantage of using the electrolyte powders from the health food store is that the beleagered rehabber can drink the leftovers to improve their own health and immune system.



Hi TerriB,



Yes, and the ones I got are very nice flavored, too.

I bought the 32 count box, where usually in the past I'd buy three or four packets merely...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Cynthia and Maggie,


Thanks for the info on tube feeding and the nipple variation. 

Cynthia, I tried to find the Boots tape here, but they don't stock that item although they do carry some Boots products. Double darn! So I'm back to square one on finding something that will stick to itself well enough to hold when I press it together in the middle. Talking about splay leg treatment here. Sorry all, it is way off the topic of rehydration.

Margarret


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Margarret,

I can send some.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> Cynthia and Maggie,
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info on tube feeding and the nipple variation.
> ...


Hi Margarret,



'Micropore' Tape, in 1/2 inch or wider widths, may be had of any mini-mall Medical supply...sticks well to Feathers and comes off very well so long as one pull gently in the same direction the Feathers grow...sticks to itself VERY well...is inexpensive...usually 99 Cents a roll...


Thats what I use for everything...



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Micropore is too thin for taping splayed legs, although I suppose you could pad the legs and the space between them then wrap micropore round it all....

Cynthia


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Cynthia,

That is much too generous of you to offer to send some all the way over here. Let me try fooling with the mircopore (thanks Phil) and see if I can make that work before your going to the trouble of mailing tape to me. I will see if I can devise some padding beneath it where it goes around the leg and then pinch it together in the middle as your picture shows.

Margarret


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia, really excellent information, thanks for taking the time.  
This is a really important topic.

fp


----------

