# Could this mealy cock be spread?



## johnbt

I have attached pictures of a pair of my rollers that have breed some spread chicks. Pictures of some young following also.

Thanks,

John


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## johnbt

Young ones from this pair.


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## johnbt

More pictures...


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## nzpouter

where's the pic of the spread chick?


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## NZ Pigeon

Hey Andrew, Its the black one in the background of the last pic and in the second to last pic, The one tail feather that is not white is completely Black and has no tail bar


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## nzpouter

I think that one is a t pattern, you still can see a bit of blue showing on the shield.


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## NZ Pigeon

It could be a t check, The owner said it had a black tail with no bar though which would mean spread, What about the red bird in the third to last pic? Is the a red spread/lavender?


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## nzpouter

that one is a bit suspect... although I did breed a bird with that colouring which matured with a faint bar... then again.. look at the bar on the silver bird... 

OP, is the pair in a separate compartment or is it a comunal loft? The pics of the pair doesn't appear to be spread birds.


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## johnbt

The pair have been in a breeding cage on their own.


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## nzpouter

do you have pic of the baldhead chick with it's wing and tail spread?


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## johnbt

Give me a couple of minutes I'll see what I can do.


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## johnbt

Couple of pictures. Another following.

John


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## johnbt

Not sure how the bird looks in the pictures, but in the hand it really is very black. This pair have laid again. Not sure if I will let them raise them or if I will put the eggs under some tumblers, but I will let them hatch. I'm separating the pairs now as I wean the young.


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## nzpouter

that is black.... strange, as one of the parents appears spread....


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## NZ Pigeon

Yup It is Black, Andrew, Do you mean none of the parents appears spread? I thought that was strange too, The check hen is def not spread so the ash red mealey must be spread. I noticed the mealey cock has a real dark flack up his shield which is common in red spreads that carry blue.


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## johnbt

The pair are sitting on eggs again. I let you know what I get this time. What would you call the barred young one?

Thanks for the time you are spent on this for me.

John


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## NZ Pigeon

Looking at the tail I would guess it is an ash red spread, It looks a little like a dilute blue bar (silver) except for the tail and flights. I have an ash red spread bar roller that looked exactly the same until it moulted through and then it looked a lot redder, Now you can see without doubt that it is a red spread bar.


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## george simon

*Were these birds bred in cages, or open loft nests boxes? From the looks of all those young my guess is more you may have more then one cock bird topping the hen.* GEORGE


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## NZ Pigeon

johnbt said:


> The pair have been in a breeding cage on their own.


Here is your answer George


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## george simon

NZ Pigeon said:


> Here is your answer George


*Very intresting* GEORGE


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## NZ Pigeon

george simon said:


> *Were these birds bred in cages, or open loft nests boxes? From the looks of all those young my guess is more you may have more then one cock bird topping the hen.* GEORGE


We covered that option off and it seems that its not the case, I would think the only other viable option is that the mealey is spread, I personally have red spreads in my loft that have almost fully showing bars like this one.


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## NZ Pigeon

george simon said:


> *Very intresting* GEORGE


Yes it is interesting indeed. I must admit I placed my bets on the hen being topped by a different cock.


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## johnbt

All by pairs are separated in their own breeding cages. These birds have been paired up since August last year. The blue checker and the lavender were in earlier rounds to the bar and black. I was just updating my records and noticed that I may not have posted a picture of the lavenders nest mate. I'll go and have a look for the birds in a minute. I have to checked the ring numbers I can't remember them all anymore.

I have a round from a pair of Australian Performing Tumblers - a yellow cock and dilute kite hen that are equally confusing. I have tried the local breeders and a another good forum without a definite conclusion. I was asked regarding this query if the birds were separated also (which they were). I think the final verdict was that the birds weren't the parents and the father had to be a red ash which I don't have. If you are interested I could start another thread regarding the colour of these two young ones.

Thanks,

John


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## thepigeonkey

thats interesting, I guess the mealey cock could be spread, I knew spread varied alot but not that much, he almost looks normal ash red bar pied. 

Does the dark flecking on his shield mean he is spread? a good question for the genetics forum, usually a red barred bird carrying blue only has blue flecking on its wing bar or tail bar

make a new thread about the 'Australian Performing Tumblers - a yellow cock and dilute kite hen that are equally confusing'

how would you know its a dilute kite and not just a dirty looking silver. I would like to see the dilute kite

luke

I imagine a pairing like that would throw any colour under the sun


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## johnbt

This picture is the nest mate to the lavender (2nd round). The earlier blue checker picture is the first round (only one bird). The bar and black are the third round.

I will start another thread re the tumblers. Can anyone help me with the pictures. I am resizing to 640 do I need to go smaller? This last picture is 480. I will need to delete pictures to complete the Tumbler thread. 

Luke, the breeder who gave me the hen calls it a dilute kite or sulfur. Others who have seen it call it a golden dunn. Me, well, I just don't have a clue.

John


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## nzpouter

sulphur is usually used in modenas colour, dilute of bronze (bronze tri)... your mealy cockbird really confuses me... I have a few strawberries (ash red spread) but none ever have that clear definition of the bars.

I'll try and get some pics later.


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## NZ Pigeon

*Examples*

I have some rollers that that have very defined bars for red spreads. 

All ash red spread cocks carrying blue, Came from an ash red spread cock carrying blue and an ash red hen ( mealey Bar ) The ash red spread cock is **** for spread so all offspring are spread.

The first pic is how you would expect the bars to look on an ash red spread, the last pic shows bars but not as defined as yours, 

I will add another pic soon of a bird with almost perfect bars from the same pair as the two pics so far.


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## NZ Pigeon

This one almost looks like a normal ash red bar, The bird is redder in real life and is from the same pair as the birds above.


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## nzpouter

that last bird almost look smokey....


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## nzpouter

Here's some of my ash red + S, all different birds,


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## nzpouter




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## nzpouter




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## NZ Pigeon

nzpouter said:


> that last bird almost look smokey....



Do you mean smokey on blue? They are all cocks from a red hen so have to be red birds, Also the cock they came from is **** for spread so they are all spread. 

Are you sure that norwich cropper is red spread? And the modena in the last pic doesn't look red spread.


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## nzpouter

yeah, smokey on blue, could be just the lightning. The cropper and modenas are spread, the pics are taken during moult so might explain the lighter bits.


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## NZ Pigeon

Yeah the lighting is bad, He is defenitly ash red.

The modena and cropper look ash red T pattern/Velvet to me. They would have more grey if they were spread


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## george simon

johnbt said:


> This picture is the nest mate to the lavender (2nd round). The earlier blue checker picture is the first round (only one bird). The bar and black are the third round.
> 
> I will start another thread re the tumblers. Can anyone help me with the pictures. I am resizing to 640 do I need to go smaller? This last picture is 480. I will need to delete pictures to complete the Tumbler thread.
> 
> Luke, the breeder who gave me the hen calls it a dilute kite or sulfur. Others who have seen it call it a golden dunn. Me, well, I just don't have a clue.
> 
> John


*Hi John,Well I have been digging in my books and in the book by QUINN "AN INTRODUCTION TO PIGEON SCIENCE" he goes into much detial on the Spread and speaks of crossover and linkage on the chromosome. LINKAGE is defined as the tendency for genes to go together as units in matings, because they are on the same chromosome. As I see it this is why you are getting so much difference in the young from this pair. Many of the blue young have light colored beaks. In the 25 post on this thread you have a blue check with a white beak this bird is carring the smokey gene, and that may be having an effect on the spread gene. As I said in an earlier post this very intresting* GEORGE


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## NZ Pigeon

John, To be sure you have Smokey are you able to show the tail spread out on the bird in question?

I am not sure that Smokey would have much effect on spread though


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## nzpouter

NZ Pigeon said:


> The modena and cropper look ash red T pattern/Velvet to me. They would have more grey if they were spread


I wish the norwich was a t-pattern, bred him with a blue bar to get a black bird with blue head and end up with a really smutty straberry, and the modena bred a self brown when mated to a bronze t-pattern.


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## johnbt

Thanks George, I never picked the white beak. I'll take a picture of the tail tomorrow as Evan suggested. All those pictures are a great help. I finally now know what the spread ash is. A friend I have made through pigeons has several spread ash Show Pen Homers. They are like the bird in the blue bowl but with a bit more dark flecking.

John


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## johnbt

I'm going to have to delete some pictures to start another thread. I can show you all pictures of the next round when they hatch. Breeding starts here in about July, maybe I could be selective with the hen I put with this cock next season to confirm the spread. I'll probably need some advice here though to make it a valid test.

Thanks,

John


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## johnbt

Picture of the pied checker's tail.


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## thepigeonkey

I forget - does the white stripe on the side of the outer tail feather mean its not smokey? - I need to ask Evan lol


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## thepigeonkey

george simon seams to know,... is it smokey?


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## nzpouter

I thought white = non smokey?


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## johnbt

Smoky will eradicate the albescent (whitish) strip on the outer tail feathers of both brown and blue base colored pigeons. 
A simple check of the bird’s tail for the presence of the albescent (whitish) strip will tell the story of which parent is or is not Smoky. If its missing, its a Smoky.

cut from another website


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## NZ Pigeon

johnbt said:


> Smoky will eradicate the albescent (whitish) strip on the outer tail feathers of both brown and blue base colored pigeons.
> A simple check of the bird’s tail for the presence of the albescent (whitish) strip will tell the story of which parent is or is not Smoky. If its missing, its a Smoky.
> 
> cut from another website


Ron Huntley website is it? Lol

So we know its not smoky - I personally thought pied/white beaks.

Lets look at the facts

We have a spread offspring from two parents not appearing spread, We know that this is not possible so the simple answer is one of the parents carry spread

We know smoky is not affecting the spread as per Goerges theory so this can be ruled out

Either the blue parent is spread or the red parent is spread or there is a very slim chance that your non spread birds have mutated a spread the same way as it originally happened way back when it first mutated

My guess goes on the mealey being the spread though as we have seen a lot of evidence of the variation of red spreads in their expression, We know that blue birds with spread do not vary much. 

The simplest answer here John is that your mealey is spread. Although he does not appear spread.

I am not completely ruling out the possibility that the blue could be spread or the possibility that this is just a random mutation but I do not think these options are likely


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## Print Tippler

Smokey will also remove half the strip when in the heterozygous state leaving it only the bottom half.


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## NZ Pigeon

You are right, But this bird is not het nor **** for smokey as it has a full albescent strip


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## johnbt

I have the last round of eggs from this pair under the tumblers. I will let you all know what I get this time.

Is there a bird/ colour that I could pair with the mealy next time to confirm or otherwise that he is a spread. 

Thanks for all your time and help with this. I have another Tumbler colour/ pattern question if you are intested, I start another thread "Dirty Blue Bar APT's?"

I have learn't a lot from you all. I know enough now to much around on the pigeon calculator and see the results of different pairings and understand what's going on. I found the calculator a bit confusing before, now it makes a bit more sense.

Thanks for all your time and help with this.

John


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