# how do you know when a canker colony is dead/



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I picked this baby from street when he/she was having his last breaths. I didn't hope but fortunately he/she recovered after some good food and medicine. 

unfortunately, I tought that the canker was intestinal and as apparently was no more problem, i stopped metronidazole treatment after five days. 

He also had a big swelling on the inside of beak, leaving only a small area from the mouth, almost exactly the diameter of my feeding tube (3 mm). I was not sure about the nature of this swelling, I thought is pox or a dead canker colony. At some point, the button separated from the beak's internal wall and on the revealed face I could see that the colony was yellow and smelly, so was alive. I resumed the metronidazole treatment and I noticed bird feeling better. On other hand, apaprently the button grew in size. 


The color of that part that was yellow is now gray. Is that an indication that the colony is dead? Because is not, I think there is a serious problem and perhaps a high dose of metronidazole should be given.



Here are some photos (not very relevant) but take notice that what appears yellow or orange is not the colony but somke debris (food or something) in the crust covering the colony:


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AndreiS, your poor pijie. The growth is so bad it is scissoring (I'm sure you noticed) the birds's beak. It looks like a wet pox with possible involvement of other pathogens. Your bird may have seemed to feel better with Metronidazole because it has a drying effect, but I wouldn't megadose the bird because it's doubtful a pill will fix this one.

The bedding for the beak is likely compromised at this point and you will have to excercise extreme care when handling the bird to assist with supportive care.

A solution of water and peroxide diluted with a ratio of 10 to 1 on a q-tip for clearing mucous build up and applying topically to affected areas. The bird needs a high protein diet to replace damaged tissue. Vitamins and electrolytes in the water, might want to mix some honey in with the rest of the mix. Keep the bird well hydrated by drizzling along side of beak allowing the bird to swallow on its own.

Make sure you isolate this bird and observe strict good hygiene practices, it is so easy to transfer the virus to healthy birds.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Oh, so in fact is pox. You know, is a growth around one inch long and 0.3 inch thick, attached to body somewhere in the throad and being free from all sides, like a sort of second, swollen tongue. 

I didn't isolate the bird, does it make sense to isolate from now on?

Thank you for the tips with the food and supplements to give.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Your welcome AndreiS. Never too late, isolate and take precautions. 

"You know, is a growth around one inch long and 0.3 inch thick, attached to body somewhere in the throad and being free from all sides, like a sort of second, swollen tongue." I did notice that, AndreiS, it's frankly disturbing to just look because we all know this bird is suffering.

Here's a link for you to take a look at:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/navc/2006/SAE/554.pdf?LA=1

Scroll to pigeon pox. You know, when I saw your pictures it reminded me of a bird whose owner posted on here years ago and I hoped to find pictures still remaining in the thread. I looked page by page and didn't find pictures from the first half (approx.) of the thread. The bird had severe tissue damage to the beak and I wanted to do a memory check. The bird's name was Kaju and in the thread was treated for Squamous Cell Hypoplasia/Vitamin A deficiency. Unfortunately, the pictures have expired & are no longer there.

This first link discusses common presentations of pox, the only comment I would make is dry or cutaneous pox can occur in _feathered_ areas. I know this from a local pox outbreak that spread its' way up and down a major artery in town and the pigeon flocks that lived there. I took one such bird in to a board certified (on 2 continents) avian vet and he diagnosed it as cutaneous pox. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288422/

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...carcinoma_and_pox_lesions_in_broiler_chickens

While the above link describes simultaneous presence of Squamous Cell Carcinoma, the pox damaged tissue is known to sometimes become cancerous and need surgical removal.

While a virus can't be treated with anti-biotics, if the bird acquires a secondary infection, then anti-biotics would be necessary. I would try 
topical treatment first and graduate if indicated.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you for the time spent during all this research for this bird. The colony continues to grow and now the beak is even more scissored. Do you think it can grow much larger than this?

I gave him water with honey and liked it. I noticed he wants to eat grains, the liquid food I'm giving him not making him enthusiastic. Btw, the crop empties strangely fast while he doesn't gain weight, I hope he doesn't throw the liquid food somewhere.

Do vitamin A helps him? I give him a mix of vitamins and minerals but I can supplement with more A vitamin (in fact AD3) if necessary.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AndreiS said:


> Thank you for the time spent during all this research for this bird. The colony continues to grow and now the beak is even more scissored. Do you think it can grow much larger than this?
> 
> Your welcome, AndreiS. In my experience w/cutaneous pox, the growth expands and many times will burst, but I am wet pox deficient. Though of the folks over the years that have picked up a bird with wet pox and posted for help, the success rate wasn't great.
> 
> ...


 It can't hurt if you have it on hand and could help the pij with repairing damaged tissue.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

feralpigeon said:


> In my experience w/cutaneous pox, the growth expands and many times will burst, but I am wet pox deficient. Though of the folks over the years that have picked up a bird with wet pox and posted for help, the success rate wasn't great.


What you mean by "will burst"?




> Before the edit you asked about more canker treatment. By tomorrow it will be 48 hours, if you wanted to dose again and feel it would help, you are the one caring for the bird. But no megadoses (if a big chunk came off and was swallowed the bird could choke on it), and administer like an antibiotic i.e. 50mg's per kg 2x daily, 5-7 days. If you have a rotational canker med you might want to drizzle topically & sparingly. If that doesn't seem to help then discontinue.


I thought it is canker, but realised is pox.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

By burst I mean that the skin becomes so taut that it splits, opens up and starts oozing fluids. Only sharing that because you were mentioning its growth. It is part of the viral process.

Well, partly canker yes, just not all canker.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

A good news and a bad one:

The good news: the growth has fallen. It seems a quite rapid healing, maybe the rich protein diet, including Spirulina, are responsible for this.

The bad news: the bird got a big scissors.



And a question: do you think is a bad or good idea to fix bird's beak with tape between lunches, in order to correct the unalignment?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ouch...I would bring the bird to an avian vet or one that works with Exotics that you trust and make sure that there isn't something structural that is contributing to this. 

It may be more difficult to correct in older birds, your bird _may_ have some permanent tissue damage from the wet pox.

Here's a video from www.wildbirds.health.com from avian vet specialist Dr. Ross Perry:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...&mid=C946A374A5AE18E6EE00C946A374A5AE18E6EE00

The original video is at Youtube.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank for this valuable info Is exactly what I feared, some issues that could appear from unexpected causes.

I guess this is doctor Ross Perry's video:

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iyLqKnMerk*


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, at its original location on the web. Maybe we should take up a collection and send the pijie to Shuka Vana Rehabilitation Center?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OJaYHw0MCo


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

> Maybe we should take up a collection and send the pijie to Shuka Vana Rehabilitation Center?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OJaYHw0MCo


Is a joke, right?


Anyway, do you think, any kind of correction should be avoided? I'm thinking at moving the beak with 1-2 milimeters only (toward the normal position) and imobilize wih tape. Next days I can set the beak toward the normal (overlapping) positon a little more and so on.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, the center is no joke and the swami does bird rescue and rehab...it's so beautiful. 

But yes, a joke to take up a collection and send your scissor beak there.

I don't suppose you have an Otoscope on hand? They are pretty cheap here and available on the net or at a drugstore. They provide light and magnification for looking into the throat...least that's what I use it for when I'm trying to see more than just opening the beak & looking with the naked eye will provide. That might prove helpful. Look for damaged tissue, canker lesion/lump...any anomaly.

I would keep up with the Vitamin A/D3 supplements to help with repairing the tissue damage from the virus, the high protein diet, and other supportive techniques in your rehabbers' bag. 

I can't find any leads on successes with taping scissor beaks. Beak sculpting by avian vets, splinting and applying pressure with fingers to the appropriate side of the beak are supported techniques frequently with case histories provided. 

Your bird looks like a juvenile male and may be responsive to the finger pressure technique. Hopefully there is no permanent damage to the stabilizing ligaments that support the beak.

From this site:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=2752

"Scissors beak: Scissors beak is a lateral deviation of the rhinotheca. It is a developmental abnormality that occurs most commonly in cockatoos and macaws. It is thought to be caused by improper temperature during artificial incubation, genetics, or incorrect feeding techniques. Other possible causes include calcium deficiency, trauma, or a viral or mycobacterial infection.

Treatment varies with the severity of the problem and the age of the bird. In young birds with mild deviations, simply applying finger pressure to the appropriate side of the beak for several minutes 2-3 times daily, may correct the problem. In older birds, or those with more severe deviations, an avian veterinarian may need to perform surgery and apply a type of acrylic prosthesis (splint) to correct the abnormal growth."

And surgical techniques from Beauty of Birds with citations from Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison's Avian Medicine Principles and Applications:

http://beautyofbirds.com/scissorsbeak.html

Starting with nutritional support and physical therapy seems to make sense as a first step especially given the timeline for the bird's illness.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you! I will start that finger pressure technique.

Due to my English knowledge limitation, I didn't understand what you mean by "I can't find any leads on successes with taping scissor beaks". You mean is hardly probable to be successful? Or the other way around?


The bird is a little over one month old and the beak is quite flexible. The mouth was covered by some dirty crust which fallen and now is the pink, healthy looking mucosa but also some white and some dirty--looking matter.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AndreiS said:


> Thank you! I will start that finger pressure technique.
> 
> Due to my English knowledge limitation, I didn't understand what you mean by "I can't find any leads on successes with taping scissor beaks". You mean is hardly probable to be successful? Or the other way around?
> 
> ...


What I meant by that Andrei, is that in my searches, I didn't find any success stories about fixing scissor beak by taping the beak. Yes, I think it is UNlikely to be successful because of the severity of the scissoring.

The beak sculpting is really more for Psittacines and from the pictures I saw, don't think it would work for your pijie. 

I would run a course of Metronidazole simultaneously with Nystatin/Diflucan in addition to supplements and physical therapy.

From this site: 

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/budgietiel.html

'Yeast infections with Candida can occur, especially in birds that suffer from hypovitaminosis A."

" I never use Nystatin alone anymore to treat candidiasis. Instead, I use a combination of fluconizole, 100 mg. crushed and added to 20 ml. of Nystatin, 100,000 U/ml. Dose at 0.5 ml. per 1000 gm. bw PO q 12 hr., and may be doubled in severe cases. This works very well for baby cockatiels with candidiasis, and 5 days of treatment is usually all that is needed. For prevention of candidiasis, when baby birds are on antibiotic therapy, this mixture works very well. It should be shaken prior to administration and should be stable at room temperature for six months."


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

One more question: can that finger pressing technique be used for more than three times / day?

And another one: which are the symptoms of lack of A vitamin?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AndreiS said:


> One more question: can that finger pressing technique be used for more than three times / day?
> 
> I think you'll be able to answer that question better than me because you have the bird in hand. See how well tolerated the PT is...start small like maybe a.m./ p.m., and go from there. His mouth was really stretched into such an exaggerated position for a while there.
> 
> And another one: which are the symptoms of lack of A vitamin?


Your bird is just getting over the Pox Virus and vitamin A is recommended to help promote healing in the affected tissue. Also, if lumps and lesions aren't self-resolving, they can become cancerous. BTW, many sites say that dry pox occurs in non-feathered areas and this is just not true. The sub-cutaneous lumps may appear in feathered areas as well, this from the diagnosis of a feral rescue that was in my possesion by an avian vet. 

Scroll to page 3 and beyond in the PDF file. 

http://www.pigeon-aid.org.uk/pa/html/pigeon_pox.php

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8137325

http://www2.univet.hu/sc1/feltoltott/23_1330073980.pdf


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