# Advice needed - urgently!!!!



## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

I've been searching for ages and finally found a silver t-check lahore.

But seeing a photo of her now, even though her colour is perfect her markings are not :/

I want to breed her, and possibly show the offspring. As for the male I have a wider selection to chose the right markings, but she's the only one I found in this colour!!

I'll be meeting the sellers of both the male and female (two different sellers from opposite sides of Italy!) at a fair.

Should I even be considering this female??
If she is paired with a well marked male will the offspring come out well marked mostly or will she ruin the marking??

Help please! :/


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## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

She my give good offspring give her a try I always put a good marked one to a bad one and get good marked pigeons


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

epul said:


> She my give good offspring give her a try I always put a good marked one to a bad one and get good marked pigeons


Thank you!!


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Piebalds and pattern whites are not very well understood. I don't know of any study's on Lahore markings. I think it's always best to avoid very poorly marked bird. I don't know how bad you talking about for your bird. Can you post a picture? I don't know what it's called but it's believed for some things that environmental factors and early development ihe embryo can change the appearance of things free from genetic influance. That could be the case in some pieds. It's said to be that way with crest birds. Sometimes a bad crest may come out but it's genetically no different and will breed fine. 

See the bottom of the PDF page 98 of joe Quinn's genetic

http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/rhuntley/quinn.pdf

He speaks of mishaping crest of being a change variation and not a genetic one.

It's a tough thing to accept in studying genetics that some changes are not actually genetic! I don't know how much of that though is in regards to piebald. On the PDF page #114 of the above link he starts talking about white in pigeons. You should read all that to get a better understanding. 

How bad is the marking? Really a picture would be nice. Very well marked can be very hard to come by. I would error on the side of caution when breeding. Your just starting to breed selection early on can help reduce problems down the road. Even to well mark birds can through some bad things. I only work with white flights which is pretty limiting as far as amount of white. Some odd things can happen from time to time. I assume that generally the more white, the more complicated of the mark, more chaotic. Though might not always be the case.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

If it is the only bird you can find with the color you want to pass on, then try it. but usually they say breed best to best to get better.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Thank you, that was very informative! I have a lot of reading to do  

I decided to pass on this bird. In any case when the breeder felt I was unsure he stopped replying to my emails.

I don't honestly blame him if he was only bringing this bird down to sell it to me, and wasn;t bringing down any others.

The bird is the grey one. A bit small in this pic but it is all I have. She has a very uneven neck marking and a few coloured feathers under her eye.










Am I being too picky? I've only seen lahores online, so they're all show photos. I am going to the north of Italy to an international bird fair to pick out my pair, should I lower my standard? I was inclined to get the best I can, since they are my foundation pair


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I have a suspicion you already know the answer. IMO yes get the best for your foundation. working on a color project perhaps should come later, and if it is a rare color then best is not always doable.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

spirit wings said:


> I have a suspicion you already know the answer. IMO yes get the best for your foundation. working on a color project perhaps should come later, and if it is a rare color then best is not always doable.


Its not a rare colour per se. I think its just not the most common and not the one people tend to advertise. I'm hoping at the fair there will be more variety than I found online


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Its not a rare colour per se. I think its just not the most common and not the one people tend to advertise. I'm hoping at the fair there will be more variety than I found online


ok, then I will go back to what I said before. best to best = better.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

spirit wings said:


> ok, then I will go back to what I said before. best to best = better.


ok thank you  I feel better with that confirmation also


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

That really doesn't look like a serious mis-mark to me. Your going to have to have experience on breeding them until you understand what is normal. It is important to remember, that when you see pictures online of the breed or in a show those people have surely taken the time to pluck out each offending feather to bring the bird closer to the standard. That is not considered cheating in the show world. I don't show pigeons, I think the practice is cheating, deceiving, and leaves people with a false imprecision.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Print Tippler said:


> That really doesn't look like a serious mis-mark to me. Your going to have to have experience on breeding them until you understand what is normal. It is important to remember, that when you see pictures online of the breed or in a show those people have surely taken the time to pluck out each offending feather to bring the bird closer to the standard. That is not considered cheating in the show world. I don't show pigeons, I think the practice is cheating, deceiving, and leaves people with a false imprecision.


i didn't know they did that! Thank you. I don't see how that should be allowed?? If a breed is known for their markings how can they allow tampering of their markings?? Strange world


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> i didn't know they did that! Thank you. I don't see how that should be allowed?? If a breed is known for their markings how can they allow tampering of their markings?? Strange world


plucking a stray colored feather/s is considerd normal grooming of a show color pigeon, how long before the show you do it I don't know, but it is NOT taking a whole patch of mismarked feathers and yanking them out. being that the nun is a marked breed and that is what they are known for ,plucking a few strays is no biggy, now if the white is taking over color lines and such you can't add color so those lines and markings are important.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

you cant remove huge patches for the most part, but in densely covered area like the neck removing a small patch could be possible without detection. I don't know. I never tried it. Im sure some have tried removing big areas to see what happens. In some standards they are told not to pluck but if your judge can't tell then assume people would do it anyways.


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