# What color is this?



## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

I just picked up this new youngster. Wondering what you would call this color? I kind of think he may moult out into a regular recessive red???


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Beautiful pigeon! The color looks like a typical chicken's color.. I don't know genetics so hopefully NZ Pigeon or tmaas (or others) can help you.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looks like a poor rec red to me. Could moult in with some white or mottling.


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## pigeon is fun (Sep 6, 2010)

I have no clue but the bird really nice.


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## likebirds (Oct 22, 2012)

I have no idea but I like it!


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

It is likely recessive red, though I have never seen one like this. Great photo by the way thanks for posting it.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Is the tail white?


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Sure looks White to me.
Rob,
Becky will have an opinion when she sees it.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you look where the bird has moulted In new feathers the red is more pronouced. And not a bad red color. The tail does look white. Even the unmoulted area Looks red. Just a dull red. And NZ is right with the white on the tail it could later moult in more whit making it a mottle. Is it a muelman. Which several of those wind up mottled red when they are Red based. Post after the moult is over Bet it will be a decent red color What color are its parents


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Looks very Trenton-esque. Look forward to seeing it after it molts.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

What *COLOR *are the parents ????.......Alamo


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Knowing you like Hollywood birds I'd say after it mounts it'll be recessive red!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It looks to me as though the darker feathers are pre moult and the faded red ones are newer.

Ashby - Loft - the dark red feathers in the barred area? Are they newly moulted feathers or are they they previous ones.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

The tail is pretty white. It is out of a blue bar son of Hollywood and a recessive red double granddaughter of Hollywood.

So I expect recessive red with that type of breeding. I think it might end up red. But I have not seen one like this.

oh and here is the pedigree link... http://www.pigeondb.com/share/58374/pedigree


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NZ Pigeon said:


> It looks to me as though the darker feathers are pre moult and the faded red ones are newer.
> 
> Ashby - Loft - the dark red feathers in the barred area? Are they newly moulted feathers or are they they previous ones.


Look at the head and neck. then compare to the wing. The head neck are the first area on a moult on most young birds. So the better red is the new feathers and the dull is the baby feathers.. At least that is my thought


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

I've seen some bad recessive reds but never ones that came mottled like this.
Looks like *Ember*


http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ember.html


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

AZCorbin said:


> I've seen some bad recessive reds but never ones that came mottled like this.
> Looks like *Ember*
> 
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ember.html


If it was ember I would think it to be a good ember color. But It is not. I dont think. And the moulted feathers are cleaning up the red. Give this bird about 3 more months To show it better color. Then after the fall moult when it gets its first full adult moult We will know if it is going to get mottled up.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

I will bring this thread back to life once the bird has a full moult. My bet is it ends up a regular looking recessive red.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

re lee said:


> Look at the head and neck. then compare to the wing. The head neck are the first area on a moult on most young birds. So the better red is the new feathers and the dull is the baby feathers.. At least that is my thought


I agree but I am not really focusing on the head and neck as from what I have seen in poor rec reds the head and neck are the easiest area to get a consistent colour, The wing shield is often the challenge. I am interested to see how it moults out, It could be beautiful, here's hoping. Until then we can only speculate, The bird is clearly **** rec red though

Please do update us


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Here are a few pictures of some embers:
























Pictures from link below.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ember.html

And the OP's bird at question again:









Note the visible bars in all pictures.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Corbin, I agree it is incredibly similar, Is Ember in races though? I would be with you 100% if the bird was not in its moult.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

They have ember in racing pigeons now. But first The ones I have seen were a darck check ember showing through flights and underside of the wing. So it would be work in progress. Not only for the color concept. But for the Quality also As you know ember would have been a total breed outcross. But this bird still shows red to me as it is moulting out the new baby feathers. And still needs the full adult moult. But yes ember has been put into race birds.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Re lee, Do you know what breed they used to cross it in? Was it a show homer breed or something different like a tumbler??

This bird looks quite lanky to me, I know racers come in all shapes and sizes but this is definitely not the traditional American racer look.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Re lee, Do you know what breed they used to cross it in? Was it a show homer breed or something different like a tumbler??
> 
> This bird looks quite lanky to me, I know racers come in all shapes and sizes but this is definitely not the traditional American racer look.


No I do not. a friend of mine That races And also breeds for color in some of his birds. Bought a couple of pair of embers about nine years ago. And those birds had already been back bred Looked about like any race bird. .Considering ember was found in ferals then crossed over. It would be a guess As what was used. BUT any breed would work as to geting the color. The thing with race birds it takes years to get the quality back up. This guy had silvers, browns, blue barless. Ember. , mosaic, stencils, ECT. He played with them Raced them THEN had his other birds that were his main race birds. But said if he could not play with color he would keep pigeons.


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## dvtlegend (Oct 20, 2007)

what color were the parents, From my own experience when i had two bb meulemans that had the recessive red genes , they bred offsprings that molted out red vs a mottle red. Ive also seen recessive reds crossed with yellow trenton types that show similar colorings to the one show on this post


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

This bird isn't done moulting when it is it'll be recessive red not ember.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Been a few months, any updates?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I'd also like to know how this bird turned out...


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## vangimage (Aug 15, 2010)

I think rec. red with under line Ash red with a touch of indigo. The genetics guy would pull their hair at this comment. Great color contrast.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Unimproved RR mottled on blue is more likely than assuming there is indigo involved. Indigo on RR causes a bluish head according to most sources.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Can you please update us on this bird?


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## hasan_mashad (Aug 15, 2013)

i think, it might be ash-red containing blue . .that make black flecks . .here flecks have more aggregation in uper parts of the wing


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

hasan_mashad said:


> i think, it might be ash-red containing blue . .that make black flecks . .here flecks have more aggregation in uper parts of the wing


You are right that ash red birds that carry blue show black flecks but that is certainly not the case here buddy.

This bird is not ash red, it is reccesive red or possibly ember.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well I am late in on this thread. Looks like a ember//recessive red to me. They start out looking recessive red and moult into more normal looking ember feathers. And yes, ember is in racing pigeons. It is in trentons as well as whatever else people have put it in.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

I've left everyone hanging on this one for a long time. Finally took a quick picture of this bird. Sorry it is a cell phone picture and not super clear. This cock ended up different from any other red I've had in the loft. The red is kind of diluted and almost purple in some light. Brown looking other times. 

He is paired with another Hollywood pigeon who has a red father. So I should be able to get reds. They are on their first set of eggs. We'll see I guess.










as a youngster...


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

looks ember to me.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Lol. I thought this thing was ember from the first photo. Then I started to see people say recessive red so I tell Corbin to check it out it then he posted. What was so hard about going to the link and veiwing the pictures posted and coming to the same conclusion.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Did ya wana prize or something Logan? Nothin was hard about going to the link I just didn't bother and still haven't. The bird actually appears to be het ember het recessive red so I think maybe both answers are correct.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

re lee said:


> I*f it was ember I would think it to be a good ember color. But It is not. I dont think.* And the moulted feathers are cleaning up the red. Give this bird about 3 more months To show it better color. Then after the fall moult when it gets its first full adult moult We will know if it is going to get mottled up.





Ashby Loft said:


> I will bring this thread back to life once the bird has a full moult. *My bet is it ends up a regular looking recessive red*.





NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree but I am not really focusing on the head and neck as from what I have seen in poor rec reds the head and neck are the easiest area to get a consistent colour, The wing shield is often the challenge. I am interested to see how it moults out, It could be beautiful, here's hoping.* Until then we can only speculate, The bird is clearly **** rec red though*
> 
> Please do update us





NZ Pigeon said:


> Corbin, I agree it is incredibly similar,* Is Ember in races though?* I would be with you 100% if the bird was not in its moult.





First To Hatch said:


> *This bird isn't done moulting when it is it'll be recessive red not ember.*



Its the willful rejection of knowledge and the passing off of false knowledge which are the problems.

If people say the bird is clearly **** recessive red and it turns out not to be... what does that makes their statements. Is it supposed to be respectable when people come in with confendience and then turn out wrong. I dont talk about archery on an archery forum because I know little about it.

The pictures of the ember bird clearly matched the original bird... everyone should have seen that. Was good enough to make a positive identicalation. Was I just lucky. Do I want a cookie, as if im special. Its because I dont think im special that I put myself on the same level as everyone else that I expect when evidence is presented it may be interpreted and the right conclusion may follow.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Print Tippler said:


> Its the willful rejection of knowledge and the passing off of false knowledge which are the problems.
> 
> If people say the bird is clearly **** recessive red and it turns out not to be... what does that makes their statements. Is it supposed to be respectable when people come in with confendience and then turn out wrong. I dont talk about archery on an archery forum because I know little about it.
> 
> The pictures of the ember bird clearly matched the original bird... everyone should have seen that. Was good enough to make a positive identicalation. Was I just lucky. Do I want a cookie, as if im special. Its because I dont think im special that I put myself on the same level as everyone else that I expect when evidence is presented it may be interpreted and the right conclusion may follow.


Print tippler. You come into this thread what a year later. And post your trash talk On everybody. If you knew all along why didnt you post something a year ago.. AND ember is not set just like the pictured birds. It can and will very. Just as the the main bird on this thread. If ember it shows it more in the flights. Relax and do not try to cut everybodys throat


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Well picked printy you deserve your cookie  
Becky gets two cookies for her answer.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

A young roller: the same gene?

First picture is shortly after first moult. He was never a very good quality recessive red, but he is getting more blue with each moult.










The second picture is recent. He is two years old, but he hasn't been through the moult this year. I thought this might be an effect of roller bronze since his sire is 
a blue kite looking bird carrying recessive red.


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