# Suspected Pigeon with PMV



## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Hi All,

My first post Pigeon Talk and I hope to learn alot from all of you.

I recently got rid of two of my baby pigeons who were born about 1 month ago.

They both looked really healthy but still being nearly 5 weeks old both wont eat themselves so the mother father had to feed them, then one of my friend noticed that both pigeons twist there neck 360 degrees and other symptoms like not picking food started to occur, which to me confirmed they had PMV so i got rid of them both.

However all my other pigeons who were in the same loft seem to be fine, and I did clean all the lost and used some disinfection liquid to clean the wood work.

However one of my pigeons I have seen turning his turn, but not 360 but maybe 90 degrees, it could be just me being paranoid, however I am worried.

I have made three videos for you lot to advise me on.

Part 1 - show the pigeon out and flying, I havent flown him for few weeks because some idiot has decided to release there falcon in our area. However I flew him today.

Part 2- The pigeons returning to Loft and socializing with other pigeons

Part 3- a very late video when all the pigeons were mostly sleep, however just wanted to show how it behaves at night.

To me he seems ok but then i get worried, as I really dont want to get rid of any pigeons, I love them all.

Please advise or comment after watching the videos, which I will provide link for once uploaded, still in progress.

Regards


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Do you see any other signs in the pigeon that has started to twist his neck?
Could be PMV or Parathypoid... First you need to observe them closely. Best if you can get a diagnosis.
Sometimes paratyphoid is hard to recognise in a loft.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They may not have had PMV. Something like that you should be sure of, before killing babies.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

This contains a list of symptoms and other PMV info

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/pigeonparamyxovirus.htm

Also, where are you located (nearest town)?

Aside from PMV and Paratyphoid, there can be other causes, related to dietary or vitamin deficiency.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

How long ago did the youngsters become ill? If the cause was viral or bacterial then the likely source is within the loft and you will need to have some tests done. 

Please be aware that in the UK PMV is a notifiable disease because of the devastating effect an infected pigeon in a race can have (vaccination is not always 100% effective) so if you suspect a case has developed within your loft you are required by law to contact the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratory Services, who will test for free and place restrictions on your loft until it is clear of infection.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/ahvla-en/disease-control/notifiable/pmv/

If you just suspect a different infection caused the illness in the squabs then you can have tests (including testing for PMV, just in case) done by Retford Poultry Partnership 01777 703011. They will send you a testing kit if you telephone, you don't have to pay for it until you submit it. This link shows what they can test for how much they charge and what samples to send. 

http://www.retfordpoultry.com/links/pigeontestingform.pdf

I believe that if the tests are positive the private labs are also required by law to notify the HAVLA Field Services.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Thank you for your reply guys.

UPdate - 100% confirm the pigeon has PMV, i went into the loft today he was sitting there with his neck 360 degree turned, I saperated him into another loft just next to the one where all pigeons are kept.

However here are the video in parts of the pigeon who has PMV:

http://youtu.be/qk5iwnAL8JU


http://youtu.be/QCIJHnw1o70

http://youtu.be/HNCwxId7jnM

How fast does this PMV spread, I have had pigeons for four months now. The one suffering from PMV now is about 4 months old pigeon, he was fine. Till I had the new babies born which I got rid of.

Can my whole loft be infected? PLease advise urgently.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

John_D said:


> Hi
> 
> This contains a list of symptoms and other PMV info
> 
> ...


Located in Woking, if you can help that be brilliant.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Well,looks like PMV to me. You can make a through check up of wings and joints to see if there is a lump or lesion sorta thing on bird. If you don't find one then it could be said its PMV outbreak. Blood test/cloacal swabs will reveal it

I hate to tell you that PMV is highly contagious,can spread directly or indirectly. Other pigeons are at high risk of infection,sorry but may be its too late.
Best would be to separate the birds which are showing obvious symptoms and give them supportive care and favourable warm(not hot) environment . Give very wide perches to roost on because pigeons have balance disorders and can crash/fall and get hurt.
PMV virus runs its course for 4 to 6 weeks. Till that time you will have to keep your infected birds isolated.Moniter them. Hand feed them if they are unable to pick feed. Electrolytes and calcium help in supportive care. Antibiotics can be used if other bacteria are found but antibiotic will have no effect on PMV viruses.Extreme hygiene should be kept and dropping be disposed off wisely so that they don't spread the virus further. Infected droppings,water and feed are source of infection.
Thorough clean up of the loft is needed to be done ASAP with strong disinfectant and bleach. Also bleach the feeders and drinkers,nest bowls , I mean everything in and around the loft.
After six weeks infected pigeons if survive,no longer shed virus means can't infect others but symptoms may remain for weeks/months/years.

Vaccinating healthy stock may help. 


In your case using live strain vaccination is not advisable as it may worsen the situation. Sick birds shouldnt be vaccinated (but many say that they had success by vaccinating the sick birds.(Biased and unscientific)


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

A ggod test if a bird is showing the twisted neck is, if the bird is otherwise mobile mostly, attempting to peck for food, walking around ... PMV. If it pretty much lying down mostly, head resting on the floor, sticky or wet greenish poops, little interest in anything much - quite likely Paratyphoid.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Well,looks like PMV to me. You can make a through check up of wings and joints to see if there is a lump or lesion sorta thing on bird. If you don't find one then it could be said its PMV outbreak. Blood test/cloacal swabs will reveal it
> 
> I hate to tell you that PMV is highly contagious,can spread directly or indirectly. Other pigeons are at high risk of infection,sorry but may be its too late.
> Best would be to separate the birds which are showing obvious symptoms and give them supportive care and favourable warm(not hot) environment . Give very wide perches to roost on because pigeons have balance disorders and can crash/fall and get hurt.
> ...


WhT is the best medication... alsk other pigeons are showing no sign and i have now removes this pigeon from my loft. It is sitting on the roof and has few time flown around and landed back o top of the loft. The twisting of the neck he only does when he is in the loft... i am going to keep him and treat him as he drinks and eats like all other pigeons... please advise medicine or treatment.... regards

From the videos can you can just see how healthy this pigeon is...


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

PMV is caused by a virus so unfortunately there is no medicine available to treat it. The virus has to run its course for 4 to 6 weeks. For this time period you have to take care of infected pigeon. The pigeon needs to monitered if he is feeding and drinking on its own. If his gear goes down then he may not survive the PMV virus course i.e, 4 to 6 weeks. Efforts should be made to keep the bird up in terms of health so that it can survive the virus's course. Bird can be given healthy diet,electrolytes,some calcium to help him survive the course. Some birds recover quickly,others might take months or years or may never recover.
Your other birds may not be showing symptoms because PMV could be in its initial stage. Some birds(depends on health) show symptoms after 4-6 days while other may take more time. Neck twisting and dropping wings are last stages of disease.
If the bird which has PMV had shared water,feeders,air,dust,droppings and other pigeons have been handled with infected hands then PMV has already spread in your loft. sorry


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

Neck twisting could be because of : salmonella - Paramyxo virus - and other vitamine deficiency issues.

I had experience with one of my hens the first time I saw her twisting her neck I though it was her end, Then I toke her to vet and later we discouvered that it was Salmonella not PMV . to add PMV is a virus & there isn't no treatement of it only a preventation vaccines, so It's advisable to isolate the infected pigeons, clean/disinfect your whole loft and put them under supervision If necessary hand feed them, I hope your pigeons make it


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

PMV spreads slowly through the loft.

Rather than kill the affected pigeons you should isolate them and make certain that any that are not showing symptoms are vaccinated. 

PMV survivors have turned out to be champions and in my experience they live long and healthy lives, so will most likely pass a strengthened immune sytem on to their offspring. They are well worth preserving.

Tests will confirm whether it is salmonellosis ( you need 5 days poop as they don't shed tge organism all the time) but although both conditions may share some symptoms they are not identical.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Dear All,

Thanks for your advise and tips.

The infected Pigeon I have saperated, and I have just put his seeds in his bowl and water, and guess what... ALL GONE in his tummy, he eats and drinks fine, I am feeding him Vitamin water which is good for his Immune system.

This pigeon to be honest was acting weird for last 4-5 weeks, I just thought he was being boring because his partner has been taken by the falcon, only today in the morning for the first time he turned his neck and confirmed my suspicion that he is infected.

However I believe he was infected along with the new born pigeons who were getting weak but could have survived if I didnt **** myself thinking all my pigeons will die... got misled on them..

I believe this pigeon has been infected and might well be in his last stages and god willing he should survive, the other pigeons are showing no symptons of this virus what so ever, and they poo is green, with white line in it, which is hopefully normal poo. All eat and look active.

However I plan to call the HALVA association tomorrow and to come and inpect my loft and hopefully get rid of the virus..

CAN someone please confirm:
> The HALVA (might be spelling it wrong) association do they come and do the inspection of the loft for free for PMV? I have been told on this thread it is free but can someone please re-confirm
> My pigeons are mostly Pakistani high flyers, I hope this will not be a problem for the HALVA people, or will they have an issue being it a Pakistani flyer?
> The survivors of PMV, can they get this virus again in there life again, or once if my whole loft is infected and hopefully survives, that it ??

Please answer my questions and I will keep all of you lot updated weekly to let you know what is happening.

Regards


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That very well might not be PMV. He doesn't walk in circles or throw his feed, unable to eat. And as far as symptoms, Salmonella can have the neck twisting as well.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Is the pigeon actually showing *any* other symptoms aside from the neck twisting?

I would not be in a big rush to call anyone in until you can confirm it.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

John_D said:


> Is the pigeon actually showing *any* other symptoms aside from the neck twisting?


This is what I always wanted to know,as I asked for it earlier. You should moniter and observe him closely and then pls state his other symptoms. He may be showing other signs which you are oblivious of...

Twisting of neck is not the first and foremost symptom of salmonella. Usually it starts with boils,fluid filled lumps and lesion on wings and joints and swelling of joints/legs occur. Limping and hanging wings occurs after it and then head twisting(not nesessary in every case) follows. And in salmonella(when affected seriously)pigeons ain't that active like jasim puts it. And please notice that some Dr.s call PMV victims* ill but otherwise fine birds*

One thing that puzzles me that you're saying the squabs had serious condition and parents were ok.
Hey hey Jasim,wait one... When did you buy this bird? What is age of this bird? Is it your loft bred pigeon?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There are many different strains of Salmonella, and any of the symptoms could be present. You cannot say which symptoms would or would not be present, and in what order they would present.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Agree with you Jay. Thnx. Some symptoms may never appear in some cases. Until diagnosed,nothing can be said for sure.
But I am stating what symptoms usually occur. PMV is a notifiable pigeon disease especially in UK. So I won't be surprised.

Jasim,pls share some history of the bird.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The AHVLA don't charge,. but please remember they are a government department, they are only interested is stopping the spread of disease, they will not be interested in your pigeon's welfare, keeping it alive or identifying the underlying cause of the deaths, they just want to know whether it is PMV and if so, to stop it from spreading. Remember how they tackled the last outbreak of foot and mouth disease! That was under the labour government, this lot are even worse.

I don't know if keeping them in (so that they don't mix with other birds) and having the tests done privately before notifying the authorities if it id PMV would be breaking the law, but that is what I would do . The tests are relatively cheap (send 5 days poop from a sick bird, choose PMV, general bacteriology and salmonellosis) . It it turns out to be a bacterial infection Retford Poultry Prtnership can provide the meds, so you don't have to pay an expensive consultation fee to get antibiotics.

How are the parents of the two squabs that died? They are the ones I would watch closely. (Sorry I just noticed Brocky's question about whether they were actually hatched in the loft. Good point!)


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I think I should also mention that in his book "Fit to Win" the avian vet Dr Wim Peters states that pigeons with paratyphoid that show torticollis (ie neck twisting, the neurological symptom of paratyphoid/ salmonellosis) invariably die 

This outcome also appears to be predicted on the Pigeonvet centre website, although he refers specifically youngsters dying.

"The brain form of paratyphoid may manifest itself in turn necks. A symptom that even can occur with a paramyxovirus infection . The swivel neck is a result of impairment of the vestibular system. When the youngsters have paramyxovirus however, many remain attentive. In contrast,with paratyphoid, they will soon die."

http://www.pigeonvetcenter.com/en/diseases/90-paratyfus.html


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

And this is a rather neat summary of the most common causes of neurological symptoms in pigeons and what neurological symptoms you might see in each case. Looking for the differences rather than the similarities between the symptoms helps. I think that in the UK we can discount poisoned grain as a source.

*NEUROLOGICAL SYSTEM*:

*Paramyxovirus*-1 is the causative agent of Newcastle Disease in poultry.

In the 1980’s a strain of this virus that appeared to be primarily restricted to pigeons spread from the Middle East into Europe and the UK. It has since spread to Africa, SE Asia and the USA and Canada.

It has an incubation period of a few days to a few weeks. In an infected loft new cases can appear for 5-8 weeks after first diagnosed. *Affected birds display polydipsia, then watery to haemorrhagic diarrhoea and then neurological signs (head tremor, torticollis, paralysis of wings or legs, and blindness). Respiratory signs are minimal (see above).* 

The mortality rate in adults is low, with birds recovering in about 6 months (although they can have persistent diarrhoea for several months). In young birds malnutrition and renal damage can lead to higher mortality rates. This disease is transmissible to poultry. Vaccination is available and recommended. Racing pigeons in the UK are required to be vaccinated.

*Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid*) can cause neurological signs if the infection localises in the meninges. In these cases *affected birds may be ataxic, unable to hold their head in a normal position, lie on their side, and difficulty eating. See the gastrointestinal section for more details*.

*Poisoning* commonly occurs around feed mills and farms when poisoned grain is used in an attempt to control feral pigeons. It can also be iatrogenic eg over- dosage of dimetridazole (Emtryl®) during treatment for trichomoniasis. Poisoning should be suspected when large numbers of birds are affected simultaneously, or when no other cause of neurological signs is apparent.

*Hypocalcaemia* occurs in breeding hens fed a nutritionally marginal diet. *Paresis of the wings and feet, especially after the first egg is laid, is the most common syndrome. Affected birds are unable to fly and often drag themselves along using their beak and their wings for support. *Supplementation with Vitamin D3 and calcium, along with supportive care, is usually effective.

*Thiamine (Vitamin B1*) deficiency has been reported to cause neurological signs (*weakness, tremors, and opisthotonus* in pigeons that are anorexic for other reasons. Anorexic pigeons should be supplemented with multi-vitamins to prevent this possibility.


http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/navc/2006/SAE/554.pdf?LA=1


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

John_D said:


> Is the pigeon actually showing *any* other symptoms aside from the neck twisting?
> 
> I would not be in a big rush to call anyone in until you can confirm it.


Hi john,

Well the pigeon only symtoms I could see was him twisting his neck or sometime looking up in the sky with his neck 45 degree turned.

He did have watery poo, but that since has changed, it looks pretty normal poo now.

I have already called the AHLVA people, waiting on there vets to call me so they can inspect my loft. They told me if the virus exist they will put restriction on my loft for 2 months till the virus is completely gone form all bird, which I am happy about I just want them to be back to normal again.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> This is what I always wanted to know,as I asked for it earlier. You should moniter and observe him closely and then pls state his other symptoms. He may be showing other signs which you are oblivious of...
> 
> Twisting of neck is not the first and foremost symptom of salmonella. Usually it starts with boils,fluid filled lumps and lesion on wings and joints and swelling of joints/legs occur. Limping and hanging wings occurs after it and then head twisting(not nesessary in every case) follows. And in salmonella(when affected seriously)pigeons ain't that active like jasim puts it. And please notice that some Dr.s call PMV victims* ill but otherwise fine birds*
> 
> ...


Hi,

I did not but this pigeon, I had the mother and father from one of my friends and this pigeon was born in my loft and once he was able to self feed and fly I gave his parents back. So he has always been my loft bred pigeon.

He has no lumps, he spreads his wings ok, I have not since yesterday try to fly him but I didn't take him out and he flew about on top of the roofs and landed back on the loft and he is now separated. And twisting of neck I have only seen him do it few times. I have put him sapertely in a box and monitoring him but he does not seem to be twisting his neck 360 at all and he is eating fine.

Hence i am not going to get rid of this pigeon and keep it and if any other get infected I will keep them to, I got scared with articles on PMV from site and got rid of my home bred little baby pigeons, not repeating that mistake again.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Agree with you Jay. Thnx. Some symptoms may never appear in some cases. Until diagnosed,nothing can be said for sure.
> But I am stating what symptoms usually occur. PMV is a notifiable pigeon disease especially in UK. So I won't be surprised.
> 
> Jasim,pls share some history of the bird.


Hi,

The bird that is acting weird is;

about 4 month old
He is a high flying pigeon, he has sometimes flown for like 8 hours none stop, so a very healthy pigeon.

he for about 4 weeks or so has been on down, his poo has been watery (which i thought was upset stomach).

The pigeon not behaving the way it use to started when the new baby pigeons were born, which I have got rid of, as they were twisting there neck like mad, and I was advised to get rid of them as they will infect all other pgieon.

and I have 13 pigeons in my loft and the only one twisting his neck is this once, who is now 4 months, my home bred and his parents are still alive and healthy and flytime for both exceeds 14 hours, so not a rubbish bloodline.

if you live local somewhere in Woking/Guildford, contact me and feel free to come around.

regards


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Feefo said:


> The AHVLA don't charge,. but please remember they are a government department, they are only interested is stopping the spread of disease, they will not be interested in your pigeon's welfare, keeping it alive or identifying the underlying cause of the deaths, they just want to know whether it is PMV and if so, to stop it from spreading. Remember how they tackled the last outbreak of foot and mouth disease! That was under the labour government, this lot are even worse.
> 
> I don't know if keeping them in (so that they don't mix with other birds) and having the tests done privately before notifying the authorities if it id PMV would be breaking the law, but that is what I would do . The tests are relatively cheap (send 5 days poop from a sick bird, choose PMV, general bacteriology and salmonellosis) . It it turns out to be a bacterial infection Retford Poultry Prtnership can provide the meds, so you don't have to pay an expensive consultation fee to get antibiotics.
> 
> How are the parents of the two squabs that died? They are the ones I would watch closely. (Sorry I just noticed Brocky's question about whether they were actually hatched in the loft. Good point!)


I spoke to the AHLVA people, they asked me about behaviour of my pigeons and where did i get them from, I told them I had bought them randomly from different people from bird Watcher website, they said that was not wise. However she said if PMV is found they will put my loft under restriction and make sure that all pigeons in the Loft are virus free and that the loft is safe. I only have 13 pigeons so that should not be a massive problem, and I am pretty sure most of my pigeons will be fine.

Also interestingly , the baby pigeons I got rid there Parents, are sitting on eggs again and they are the healthiest pigeons I have, beautiful and they are hyper active, very hard to even catch inside in loft just so fast, they are now again on eggs and doing there routine.

However I am not backtracking, and about 5 weeks ago I had one of my pigeons disappear from my loft, however he returned after 2 days, and after 3 weeks he suddenly just died, he deteriorated so fast it was just within a day he died... now I am wondering if he while he was out and about got a disease from another wild pigeon bought it into my loft and might have just passed it to my baby pigeons who were like 1 week old at that time?? maybe its a possibility?

Do you think i have made a mistake calling AHVLA people? i am still waiting for a call back to book appointment, I can simply reject the calls?


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Feefo said:


> I think I should also mention that in his book "Fit to Win" the avian vet Dr Wim Peters states that pigeons with paratyphoid that show torticollis (ie neck twisting, the neurological symptom of paratyphoid/ salmonellosis) invariably die
> 
> This outcome also appears to be predicted on the Pigeonvet centre website, although he refers specifically youngsters dying.
> 
> ...


Oh really?

I have read somewhere in this forum that a survivor of Paramyoxvirus are strong pigeons that live longer because they beat a leathel virus?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You have misread what I wrote and which you quoted in the reply above.. Please read it again.

Pigeons survive *PARAMYXOVIRUS*, I have some that are still well and strong after 13 years. 

The statement that you are referring to and have quoted is about *PARATYPHOID* also known as *PARATYPHUS, SALMONELLOSIS*

Please let us know how you get along with the AHLVA, and how your pigeons get along too.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Feefo said:


> You have misread what I wrote in the reply above.. Please read it again.
> 
> Pigeons survive *PARAMYXOVIRUS*, I have some that are still well and strong after 13 years.
> 
> The statement that you are referring to and have quoted is about *PARATYPHOID* also known as *PARATYPHUS, SALMONELLOSIS*


Sorry dude, misunderstood


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*PMV update on Suspected Pigeon*

*****UPDATE *****

The Vet lady came from AHLVA, she has put the loft under restriction which was expected, she from her experience said she cannot see any symptoms in other birds..

BUT one very weird thing...

She told me to put my infected Pigeon who i know suffers from the infection back in the loft, and she also said that i should get rid of the Eggs as the babies will definitely have the virus to soon as they are born....

I did tell her that none of my other pigeons are showing any virus symptoms so its best I keep this isolated, and the reply was NO keep him in the same loft and most likely all are infected and if they are not they will get Infected so let them all go through the process!!!! IS SHE FOR REAL??????

However I am still not comfortable with my infected Pigeon being in the same LOFT, and Do you lot think I should get rid of the EGGS for new born???

Please advise urgently.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As far as remember, the infection is *not* transmitted in the egg but chicks can get infected if the parents are shedding the virus when they feed them after hatching.

Also, what you should do is vaccinate the ones that are not showing symptoms now, so that they don't get infected . It is unlikely that they are all infected now, as I wrote earlier (according to a study carried out by Vindevogel and Duchatel) the infection moves slowly through the loft and they also said that if left to run its course it affects only about 70% of the birds.

Isolate the ones that are showing symptoms. You really DON'T want them all to get paramyxovirus!


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Feefo said:


> As far as remember, the infection is *not* transmitted in the egg but chicks can get infected if the parents are shedding the virus when they feed them after hatching.
> 
> Also, what you should do is vaccinate the ones that are not showing symptoms now, so that they don't get infected . It is unlikely that they are all infected now, as I wrote earlier (according to a study carried out by Vindevogel and Duchatel) the infection moves slowly through the loft and they also said that if left to run its course it affects only about 70% of the birds.
> 
> Isolate the ones that are showing symptoms. You really DON'T want them all to get paramyxovirus!


What the procedure to get them vaccinated?

Where can I get this done? or is there anything I can buy online... Really don't want to go to vets who will rip me off.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You can buy the vaccine online and that comes with full instructions which you must follow carefully! But I found it relatively easy to vaccinate mine.

There are different brands, I used *Colombovac* which comes in a pack of 50 vaccines for £19.19 from Hyperdrug . I can't remember if syringes and needles are supplied but you need a clean needle for every bird, the best place to obtain these is *Medisave*

If you know another breeder that is vaccinating you could share the vaccines and the cost.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I would isolate the sick. And I will most definitely throw the eggs away.
PMV can damage vital organs of pigeons. The recovered pigeons can resurface the symptoms of PMV when they are put under stress because of raising squabs,changed location etc. That's why I asked for pigeon's history
Vet is telling you keep the pigeon in the same loft because she don't want that pigeon to spread the disease further outside the loft.
Not one but I've seen many cases when each and every pigeon in the loft gets infected whem PMV spreads in the loft. PMV is highly contagious.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

All of my homer pigeons died in an PMV outbreak back in 2009. I've discussed it earlier. Older members know it. Not even a single bird survived. Squabs were born with twisted necks.

You should clean and disinfect your loft regularly.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am sorry to hear that, there may be more virulent strains of Pigeon PMV active in India than there are in Europe.

I have been a member of this forum for 11 years and have not heard of pigeons hatching with Pigeon PMV before, though I know they hatch with salmonellosis and embryo infection happens in *Newcastle Disease* which is a close relative of pigeon PMV but far more virulent and deadly and affects many other species of birds, not just pigeons.. I think the last outbreak here was some years ago in Scotland.

Maybe more virulent strains of PMV have developed in India than we have here in the UK

Personally, I would candle eggs to see how developed the embryo is rather than dispose of eggs with live chicks in them on the off chance that they will be born infected, particularly if there us no evidence of infection in the parents.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Strains vary. That's a sure thing.


Feefo said:


> Personally, I would candle eggs to see how developed the embryo is rather than dispose of eggs with live chicks in them on the off chance that they will be born infected, particularly if there us no evidence of infection in the parents.


What I'm thinking is that the disease in the loft is still a mystery. Its could be both paratyphus and PMV. Or birds may have paratyphus alone,as jasim talks of sudden death and stuff. So in that scenario the birds may need to be put on antibiotics. They will have more eggs later when they get healthy. Squabs will suffer. What you say???


( Oh yea,if one egg have fully developed baby in it but don't hatch that could indicate salmonella,as jasim was talking about condition of squabs)


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

To get the right antibiotics he would need to have cultures and sensitivity tests carried out, which takes us back to Retford Poultry Partnership. They are fast and reasonable, we use them often. Now that he has reported the illness in his loft there us nothing to fear from what the tests may reveal and everything to gain. And it usually works out a lot cheaper than a single vet consultation!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well he hasn't been tested yet, so you can't be positive that it is PMV. But if it is, then I wouldn't put him back in with the others. Can you imagine having a whole loft of birds that cannot feed themselves? Let them go through the process? I wouldn't. You don't breed birds when there is an infection going through the loft. Getting rid of the eggs is what should be done when anything is going through the loft. Not fair to bring babies into it.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*PMV update on Suspected Pigeon*

**** UPDATE ****

The vets have taken blood samples and waiting for the results.

The infected Pigeon currently is isolated and I have seen him twice twist his neck completely for like 2-3 minutes period.

Left food in his pot and water, Eating normal and drinking normal.

All other pigeons are eating and look pretty normal in the loft.

Waiting for the results, I hope only the infected pigeon has PMV or other virus (and he is fighting it well) and all my other pigeons are safe so I cn vaccinate them and prevent it.

Any other suggestion please keep them flowing.

Regards


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*UPDATE - Just in*

Just had a call from the Vets,

They tested five pigeons and she said every single one of them is infected with PMV.

She herself said she was quit shocked how healthy the pigeons looked and how active they were, as it took her like 15minutes to check one lol.

Anyway she has advised me that I should keep all the pigeons together and let the whole loft stay together and fight the virus, and let the ones that die just die as they wont be worth saving -- HOW polite of her!!!!

I personally think all my pigeons are fighting the virus really well and NONE of the ones in the loft are twisting there necks, only one that is separated? Can someone please just answer my questions kindly:

1- having PMV does it mean that they all will be twisting necks?
2- The pigeon that is twisting neck I think he might be the worst one of all, do you think I should separate him or makes no difference (what is the vets are lying and just want me to keep all in one loft)?
3- Once the pigeons from today go through fine the next 6 weeks, do i consider them all to be fine and safe?
4- Can the PMV virus infect the pigeons again and does it come back again and again?
5- After 6 weeks are complete do you think I should inject them with PMV prevention medicine so it don't come back again?
6- Do the pigeons that survive this virus, tend to be back to normal ever again or not?

Please advise.

Regards


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear this bad news. I told you so that it might be too late. And also that some vets call pmv victims ill but otherwise fine birds. Your birds may appear healthy but they're not. PMV is not a new thing to me. I'm around pigeons for 21 years now and I've seen numerous PMV outbreaks. When my loft had PMV outbreak, not even a single bird survived. Everyday some other bird(s) would start twisting his neck. It was a gruesome sight to watch,all pigeons sitting with twisted necks like some horror moviE.
Strains of pmv vary. So I'm gonna advise according to my personal experience even if it is not approved by others on PT.
1.Twisting neck is a major symptom of pmv. Almost all birds that are infected with pmv twist their necks in latter stages of disease.
2.I would separate the worst case and keep an close eye on him. He's the one who needs supportive care. Ofcourse I would moniter the rest also. I would throw the eggs away and clean the loft and disinfect with virkon-s. Super hygiene is much required.
3.Yes,if they do well then after 6 weeks they won't infect others and will recover.
4.You will find many articles on net stating that pmv survivors become immune to it. But that's !ullcr!p. Pigeons again catch pmv if they come in contact with affected pigeons. Strains vary. Pmv survivors can resurface the symptoms if put under stress etc so donot confuse it with catching pmv again.
5. Yes you should most definitely vaccinate your birds when they get healthy.
6.It depends on the damage that has been done to the vital organs. It may take weeks/months/years to recover, so some may lead a normal life while others don't. Even raising squabs can put birds under stress which can resurface the symptoms again(only symptoms)


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

I don't know if they could survive or not, but What I am sure from is that 
1-PMV is highly contagious(I've heared of 1 infected pigeon caused a 50 pigeons flock to twist their necks and eventually die)
2-they do survive PMV and I suppose they gain more immunity against it but it can and it happened that a pmv surviver had the symptoms again.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Bird do not get immune to PMV. They should have a vaccination Each year and young birds should have 2 the fisrt year. PMV here in the US hat about 1980 when some import bird from I believe Egypt arrived. And it spread and killed alot of birds. Now days it is rather controled thanks to the people giving there birds a yearly vaccine. NOW some people fail to believe and say there birds are never exposed. But any time a strange birds is around there is a chance.. And it does not take long to vaccinate a 100 plus birds. Plus it is a cheap preventive measure. Now that your birds have it. Get them all vaccinated. Remove the birds with the worst symptoms to isolation. Do not let others even visit your loft As the germ can spread to others lofts. Then do a major cleaning. You might consider rebuilding your birds As those effected will be handicapped So they ones that recover well can be used to breed from to rebuild your birds.. PMV has and can destroy an entire loft.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

jasim786 said:


> 1- having PMV does it mean that they all will be twisting necks?
> 2- The pigeon that is twisting neck I think he might be the worst one of all, do you think I should separate him or makes no difference (what is the vets are lying and just want me to keep all in one loft)?
> 3- Once the pigeons from today go through fine the next 6 weeks, do i consider them all to be fine and safe?
> 4- Can the PMV virus infect the pigeons again and does it come back again and again?
> ...


1- Although this a very common symptom, often the one that first draws attention to a bird, it does not have to be present. However, with our rescued PMV pigeons (over 30 now), only two that I recall did _not_ have that symptom. It is even possible for a pigeon to have the virus and not show any noticeable symptoms.

2- As Brocky said. He won't be 'more contagious' than the rest, but may need extra care and observation.

3- Yes, as Brocky has said.

4- After 6 weeks from the time of infection they would have a period of natural immunity a little longer than if they had been vaccinated.

5- Following on from above, it is not necessary to vaccinate them until closer to when the naturally-gained immunity would wear off. If one thinks about vaccine … it is made from 'killed' virus, and prompts the bird's immune system to produce virus antibodies, so that if they are in contact with PMV from other birds or their environment the immune system knows what and how to stop it in its tracks. Once a bird has had PMV 'for real', it will be in the same position as a vaccinated bird.

6- As Brocky has said. Of our PMV pigeons, there are five who never have lost the 'twisted neck' symptom but eat and drink and otherwise function fine. We have had maybe a half dozen who had a recurrence of that particular symptom after a period ranging from a few months to several years without it. The one who showed it again after several years is now around 14 years old and going strong. Of the rest, about half seem fine except they never regained the power of flight, whilst the others appear totally normal in all respects. One thing, however, is that some PMV pigeons do get permanent kidney damage which could reduce their life-span.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Our experience with PMV has been slightly different to Brocky's, we have never had an outbreak if PMV in our aviary but have been rescuing feral pigeons with PMV for over 13 years so have quite a lot of experience of the disease and presumably of different strains. So for what it's worth:

Twisting of the neck used to be the most common symptom we saw but we have had a couple that didn't show that symptom. Both had other symptoms that made us suspect PMV so we isolated them for the required time. They both had relapses months later and it was only at that stage that they showed the typical PMV symptoms. In the UK vets have noticed that in recent years there are more pigeons dying during outbreaks of PMV than there were in the past but there are fewer showing the classic nervous symptoms.

The severity of the symptoms in each affected pigeon makes no difference to the spread of the disease. They can shed the virus and infect other pigeons even before they show any symptoms.

Only the ones that are showing symptoms now will be free of the virus within 6 weeks. They do not all become infected at the same time and the incubation period varies. You cannot assume that ALL your pigeons will be free of infection in 6 weeks, DEFRA will have applied restrictions on their movement and you must not let them mix with other birds, or take in new birds, until those restrictions have been lifted.

It has always been my understanding that pigeons that have been vaccinated have a level of immunity for a year and that pigeons that have been infected retain the antibodies that give them a level of protection for a period of three years. However, even the vaccination does not give 100% protection.

It is difficult to guess how each individual pigeon will react to the disease. We have two pigeons that survived PMV 13 years ago and have never had a relapse, some that recovered very quickly, some that recovered slowly, some that had relapses months or years after the disease and some that never quite recovered but that nevertheless are healthy and happy in every other way. As I mentioned before, our PMV survivors seem to be otherwise healthier and hardier than our other rescues. 

Hope this helps.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Interesting information. Thanks.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Feefo puts it right. She and I are talking the same actually,only thing is that I didn't go into details.
In my first point I made it clear that almost means not all will show the symptoms. Most will show torsion of neck in latter stages of disease. It depends on health of pigeon and how severly he's affected. All donot show every symptom,symptoms vary.
Like your saying jasim,that a healthy pigeon died suddenly. He may not be showing symptoms but see what happened to him.
One thing I know certainly is that even if only a single pigeon is infected in a loft(even with no symptoms) than he is capable of affecting all others. PMV is highly contagious. I'm gonna say that again that please let no other fancier visit your loft and you also don't visit any other loft with the same clothes and shoes even if you don't touch a thing/bird. Even your shoe can contract this friggin' disease. That's why your loft is restricted.
You never know when a pigeon contracted disease. So you never know when his course of virus for six weeks gonna end. I strongly agree on this with Feefo.
Pigeons keep infecting/reinfecting from virus in the loft so please keep your loft clean and disinfected. Do it on regular basis.
In the present scenario,I would not use live strain vaccination as they do are available in market. One with the killed virus would be your choice. And vaccinations are no guarantee that your pigeons won't catch it,sorry. But hope for the best and keep doing your bit.

6-7 months ago a reputed fancier in the region was ready to sell his 38 finest birds. Only 100rs(2 dollars) per bird. My friend mentor jumped in. I told him repeatedly not to buy those birds cuz I knew something's wrong but he bought all with great pride. But he listened to me and build a temporary loft and kept all of them separately about 100 meters away from main loft. After few days I noticed a bird with abnormal poop and a little balance disorder. He was not showing any torsion in neck but I got seed of suspicion in my mind. And it happened. 19 birds died in less than month showing varied symptoms. Most showed twisted neck latter. Most unfortunately the disease got into his main loft. His birds were vaccinated and we again vaccinated but still many of his birds lost lives. Out of 76 birds only about 2 dozens survived. It was a massacre people. Only the fancier who go through all this can tell the real story not scientific research statistics which they do under controlled conditions. Please,I don't mean to start any bias,just posting my personal experience.
PMV is horrific.
Pmv doesnot contract to humans but if a virus gets into an human eye,one can find himself in trouble. Trust me. So pls maintain hygiene and wash your hands and stuff everytime you touch or go near them. Take care. G'Luck brah!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

About symptoms one more thing to be added is the birds which are survivors/ predisposed to other ailments like canker,salmonells,ecoli,vitamin deficiency etc. will show varying symptoms and react to pmv differently. Pigeons with compromised immune systems go down easily and may not survive pmv. The birds who have damaged organs by some other ailments will likely die,IME

Super cleaniness and hygiene,good diet,warm favorable environment,electrolytes and calcium is what can you help the victims with. I can't stand any pigeon suffering in any part of the world so I'm having a heavy heart right now. Sorry


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

To put it blunt and honest. In todays world there is No reason to get pmv. Why because a good vacine has been around for YEARS. and being responsible as a pigeon owner the birds should be vaccinated yearly. Now with that said. Yes a new comer to the hobby has to learn and sometimes learning means mistakes are made. But really the birds should be vaccinated. And some day another desease will show its face to the world like PMV did.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*Reply To All Freinds*

Fee, Brocky and other Thanks for all your input.


I have separated the pigeon that is showing the most symptoms of PMV.

However Brocky when you ay that NECK twisting is latter part of the disease does that mean it is in its final stages of 6 weeks and after few weeks I can expect the pigeons to PMV free, with only symptoms showing if any?

The other pigeons are kept separately and as a new comer to keeping Pigeons, I have learnt the hard way but I hope my loft can survive, they are all healthy pigeons and few of them are of very good bloodline and expensive.

The sad part and the killer bit for me now is, I went to get the eggs from the loft so I can get rid of them, would you believe that when I appraoched the mother pigeons that was sitting on them and moved her, the eggs were hatching and the baby pigeons were just coming out of the eggs.... I LEFT THEM THERE< i just could not take them and get rid of, they will most likely be infected already, but I have no guts to even touch them to get rid of them....... HELP!!!!.

Also I have noticed since last night all the pigeons in the loft are still healthy and eating, however they all seems to be showing sign of having some issue, as they are all being fluffy so they might be all going through the PMV stages... I am hopeful they will survive, I hope they do and I will get my new pigeons out of every single pair I have so I can carry there bloodline.

Let the summer come, by then they should all be back to normal or at least PMV free.. I will completely destroy my loft, and make a brand new loft with extra concentration on the hygiene side and make it easier for me to clean etc..

Brocky, I feed my pigeons with one of the best seeds and other food products out there, they are regularly given calcium and also vitamin in water. I believe the Vitamin in water has really helped them fight the PMV stronger as I give Vitamin on regular basis even before this PMV (Motherf**** infected my loft...

Anyway guys I will definitely keep you lot updated, after 10 days I will post a video of my loft and show you lot the progress.

Also brocky I have no other fancier here, the only other fancier I know is 200 miles away and my cousin who has over 250 pigeons in his loft and touch wood never had PMV and his pigeons are just awesome, one of his pigeon has survived over 25 falcon attacks, its become a game for the pigeon to doug falcons and make them look like idiots, his flying time is 18-20 hours amazing pigeon..

Anyway take care guys.

Regards


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*Baytril medication*

Hi,

I just found that baytril tablets can help pigeon get healthier, they dont fight PMV but they give strength to the Pigeon to fight the virus...

I have found this link on pigeontalk:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/cgi-bin/pigeonup.exe?preadd=action&key=C5765

Do you think i should by these tablets, and the pigeons that are still looking OK and the one that is infected I should feed them these tablets, maybe it will help them fight the virus better.

please advise asap.

Thanks in advance


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

jasim786 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just found that baytril tablets can help pigeon get healthier, they dont fight PMV but they give strength to the Pigeon to fight the virus...
> 
> ...


There is no point giving medications unnecessarily until you get a diagnosis. If you're birds are healthy,don't have bacterial infections and you put them on antibiotics,it could actually stress the birds and their immune system which will work against your birds. Please donot medicate them unnecessarily. Baytril will kill friendly bacteria also which your pigeon's body need to fight in this time of pmv infection. Moreover baytril can trigger candida overgrowth which could harm your birds badly. If you suspect any secondary bacterial infection or see some symptoms then please get a diagnosis and then medicate accordingly.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> There is no point giving medications unnecessarily until you get a diagnosis. If you're birds are healthy,don't have bacterial infections and you put them on antibiotics,it could actually stress the birds and their immune system which will work against your birds. Please donot medicate them unnecessarily. Baytril will kill friendly bacteria also which your pigeon's body need to fight in this time of pmv infection. Moreover baytril can trigger candida overgrowth which could harm your birds badly. If you suspect any secondary bacterial infection or see some symptoms then please get a diagnosis and then medicate accordingly.


Will do exactly that, thanks for the advise bro.

Also one last thing ( i bet your thinking this guy cant stop asking questions)....

I believe the pigeon that is twisting his neck maybe in the last stages of PMV maybe last week, as I just realised late that he had that virus, as he was acting odd for maybe last 3-4 weeks...

If one pigeon is infected does that mean ever Pigeon is infected that same day? and how will I actually know that my Pigeon have beaten PMV and are not suddenly going to die (i am saying this after 6 weeks)?

please advise.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

jasim786 said:


> Fee, Brocky and other Thanks for all your input.
> 
> 
> I have separated the pigeon that is showing the most symptoms of PMV.
> ...


To be really specific the answer is NO. Torsion of neck is usually the one of last symptoms but one cannot surely say by seeing pigeon with twisted neck that the bird is in latter stages of pmv. Some birds donot even show this symptom. Symptoms vary from bird to bird. If your case is a usual one and you are seeing this bird sick for many weeks then it could indicate the bird is in latter stages of pmv. If you keep this bird isolated then after six weeks its gonna be pmv free.(But pmv can lay dormant in pigeon's brain for their entire remaining life. Which in some cases can cause problem again. Usually it don't)



jasim786 said:


> The other pigeons are kept separately and as a new comer to keeping Pigeons, I have learnt the hard way but I hope my loft can survive, they are all healthy pigeons and few of them are of very good bloodline and expensive.


It is indeed hard for a starter and it is heart breaking. You're advised to buy pigeons from reliable sources and donot let any stranger or straggler pigeon come and socialize with your birds. When buy a new bird, keep it isolated and moniter him to determine if he's fine then add it to your flock of birds.



jasim786 said:


> The sad part and the killer bit for me now is, I went to get the eggs from the loft so I can get rid of them, would you believe that when I appraoched the mother pigeons that was sitting on them and moved her, the eggs were hatching and the baby pigeons were just coming out of the eggs.... I LEFT THEM THERE< i just could not take them and get rid of, they will most likely be infected already, but I have no guts to even touch them to get rid of them....... HELP!!!!.


Jesus Christ. How much worse can it get.?.?.? Babies have hatched??? Oh. Now we are sure your birds have pmv and the pmv is running its course,its most likely that the babies will contract pmv. If I were in your place,then I would humanely euthanise the squabs. Squabs have weak immune systems so they will be most likely doomed. Raising squabs will stress your pmv victim parents which will make hard for them to survive pmv. Squabs will be doomed otherwise. Don't risk their parents. And bro if your parent birds get more sick then they will abandon their squabs to let them die. No point keeping the squabs. I know its hard but you have to do this



jasim786 said:


> Also I have noticed since last night all the pigeons in the loft are still healthy and eating, however they all seems to be showing sign of having some issue, as they are all being fluffy so they might be all going through the PMV stages... I am hopeful they will survive, I hope they do and I will get my new pigeons out of every single pair I have so I can carry there bloodline.


Amen. Can you fix a blower/heater or something to make your loft warm(not hot)



jasim786 said:


> Let the summer come, by then they should all be back to normal or at least PMV free.. I will completely destroy my loft, and make a brand new loft with extra concentration on the hygiene side and make it easier for me to clean etc..


Good idea



jasim786 said:


> Brocky, I feed my pigeons with one of the best seeds and other food products out there, they are regularly given calcium and also vitamin in water. I believe the Vitamin in water has really helped them fight the PMV stronger as I give Vitamin on regular basis even before this PMV (Motherf**** infected my loft...


Yes brah,their good health has definitely helped them.



jasim786 said:


> Anyway guys I will definitely keep you lot updated, after 10 days I will post a video of my loft and show you lot the progress.
> 
> Also brocky I have no other fancier here, the only other fancier I know is 200 miles away and my cousin who has over 250 pigeons in his loft and touch wood never had PMV and his pigeons are just awesome, one of his pigeon has survived over 25 falcon attacks, its become a game for the pigeon to doug falcons and make them look like idiots, his flying time is 18-20 hours amazing pigeon..


Looking forward for updates. Keep us posted.
What's up with the falcon stuff... Are you talking about falconry?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

jasim786 said:


> i bet your thinking this guy cant stop asking questions)....
> 
> I believe the pigeon that is twisting his neck maybe in the last stages of PMV maybe last week, as I just realised late that he had that virus, as he was acting odd for maybe last 3-4 weeks...
> 
> ...


I'm actually happy that you're asking questions, You love your birds and you don't wanna do anything wrong to them. You are welcome with your questions. Better to ask then do wrong things.


If a pmv affected pigeon come into loft then all other won't get affected on the same day. It depends on size of the loft and cleaniness you maintain. Many scrap off droppings daily and suck out dust with vaccums. I know some guys on PT bleach their feeders regularly. When such precautions are made then not only pmv but any other disease would move slowly unless ... You know all pigeons can be affected in couple of days.

After 6 weeks, if a pigeon survives that means pigeon has beaten the virus, pigeon would stop shedding the virus and won't infect other pigeons but nervous*and gastro-intestinal symptoms may persist longer. After those 4 to 6 weeks pigeons will start recovering depending on their health and how severely they were affected.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*UPDATE - AFTER 10 days*

Hi All,

I will provide the update in bullet points:

1 - The babies that hatched are doing fine, no sign of any illness or any thing. The parents feeding them and they have started to grow fur.

2- Even more interesting, the other eggs also hatched and there babies are still young but growing and fur is coming on them, parents are feeding them with no problem.

3- Have not seen the imfected PMV pigeon tun his neck or anything for nearly 6 days, he is eating and drinking as normal.

4- None of my other 12 pgieons are showing any sign of any illness, all seem to be eating and drinking as normal.

5- The pigeons are fed every day, with vitamin and calcium product which has always been the case and I believe this has helped them a lot, as they all look pretty solid.

6- The pigeon infected with PMV, i believe he is over his 6 weeks, as he was sick beggining of September however, I will still keep him saperated for another month so i can abide by the Vet advise to have them locked in loft for 60 days.

7- One accident did occur, I went clean the box of the PMV infected pigeon and while transferring him to new box it got out of my hand, and it flew in the skys for landed after 30minutes and then landed on top of my loft where I caught him again and put him away. However i was shocked to see how he was flying and his landing was perfect. Since few days I have been giving him Asian Therapy for PMV which is feeding herbs such as MANAKA, and that has made a difference as I have not seen my pigeon turn his neck and the amount of power he has when I hold him I can obviously tell his energy level is brilliant.

8- Te baby pigeons are fine, I have not seen them being lazy or showing any sign of any illness, as they should be pretty bad by now being young with very weak imune system however they are not and look very active. I had to go on holiday and the pigeons were looked after my brother, who just fed them and cleaned thats all he knows. However he did not notice that the eggs have hatched since I got back yesterday and notice them they have grown fur and are ebign fed fine by the parents. I can tell when a parent is stressed and these parents look absolutely fine.

9- None of my pigeons in the loft are showing any signs of PMV, there poo is of fine colour, they dont twist there necks and never did and eating and drinking is fine. I usually grab them in the loft and through them in the air to see how they land and there landing is fine. Now GOD knows if they were actually infected or the VETS just lied to me so I can just be on the safe side....

Anyway, I look forward to your replies.

Regards


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi jasim786,
Avain PMV has 9 sub groups depending on their genetic make up. These different viruses has varied ability to cause disease and type of disease they cause in different species of birds. Some cause severe disease and some cause mild disease with mild symptoms. Bowel,kidneys,respiratory track and especially central nervous system are principally attacked by pmv1 to different extents and it varies from pigeon to pigeon and loft to loft. Your birds are indeed lucky. Surely their health has helped them. I'm very happy for you and your birds...

Manaka??? They are big for a pigeon to swallow. So I assume you're giving them in pieces or boiling them or what!?!. They help to keep body warmth,help with consciousness and retain water in the body. Other than that I don't think they can cure or kill any bacteria or work against virus. Please tell about it. 


(If you don't wanna share here then PM me)


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Hi jasim786,
> Avain PMV has 9 sub groups depending on their genetic make up. These different viruses has varied ability to cause disease and type of disease they cause in different species of birds. Some cause severe disease and some cause mild disease with mild symptoms. Bowel,kidneys,respiratory track and especially central nervous system are principally attacked by pmv1 to different extents and it varies from pigeon to pigeon and loft to loft. Your birds are indeed lucky. Surely their health has helped them. I'm very happy for you and your birds...
> 
> Manaka??? They are big for a pigeon to swallow. So I assume you're giving them in pieces or boiling them or what!?!. They help to keep body warmth,help with consciousness and retain water in the body. Other than that I don't think they can cure or kill any bacteria or work against virus. Please tell about it.
> ...


Hi,

Manaka are indeed big, and what i have done them is put them in warm water and on top crushed fennel seeds and put this inside the Manaka and then feed the pigeon,... he is been on this for last 5 days and since then he has not ruend his neck .. sometimes when i use to open the box he used to get stressed and turn his neck... however now i hold him upside down to see if he turn his neck around NONE, he tilts it like 45 degree... his body strenght while I hold him is very powerfull hence managed to escape and fly mad lol.

Manaka with fenel seeds crushed apparently helps the pigeosn recover fast from PMV, and rightly as you mnetioned it keeps them warm and plenty of water which is few important requirements..

My other pigeons none of them are fluffy or doing wrong poo or turning neck... I had yesterday a pigeon fancier come to my house, he know quite bit about Pigeons and four of his pigeons last year had PMV which he got rid of straight away.... however he inspected my pigeons and he said none of them are sick or weak in any way and from his experience none have PMV and if they diid they have beaten it...

he also inspected the four new babies and all are growing fine and eating fine...

from your experience how long to new pigeosn survive if they have PMV and how quickly do parents leave them to die?

looking forward to your reply.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

jasim786 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Manaka are indeed big, and what i have done them is put them in warm water and on top crushed fennel seeds and put this inside the Manaka and then feed the pigeon,... he is been on this for last 5 days and since then he has not ruend his neck .. sometimes when i use to open the box he used to get stressed and turn his neck... however now i hold him upside down to see if he turn his neck around NONE, he tilts it like 45 degree... his body strenght while I hold him is very powerfull hence managed to escape and fly mad lol.
> 
> ...


Squabs die in matter of days or within a week as they are so weak and their necks!,they couldn't even get fed properly by parents.
Yours is an amazing success story


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Squabs die in matter of days or within a week as they are so weak and their necks!,they couldn't even get fed properly by parents.
> Yours is an amazing success story


I will post pictures of my four cubs tomorrow... and god know what the hell has happened to my pigeons would you believe it 4 more eggs have been laid, i just checked now..... lol more squabs on the way..

2 squabs are 12 days old now
2 squabs are just over a week and looking healthy

4 more squabs on the way...

I still get a feeling that the Vet lady lied to me, so they can be 100% safe they gave me 60 day loft restriction....

what you say?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jasim786 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My first post Pigeon Talk and I hope to learn alot from all of you.
> 
> ...



If it is PMV, they show signs of it when the virus is about over, so supportive care is what is needed and they can go in remission. 

"Treatment:
As with other viral diseases, there is no effective treatment for affected pigeons.
If infection is suspected in a flock, emergency vaccination can be carried out in all pigeons that appear healthy in order to prevent the infection spreading (see annual prevention plan: paramyxovirus vaccination plan, starting on day 4 = vaccination day). Visibly affected birds should be excluded from emergency vaccination and removed from the flock, since by shedding the virus they put the remainder of the flock at risk until vaccine protection is acquired."



"Paramyxovirosis vaccination plan


The most effective way of controlling paramyxovirus infection is by active immunisation of all pigeons with chevivac-P200 in addition to hygiene measures. All pigeons in the affected area should be vaccinated.



Timing of vaccination:
All pigeons that appear healthy may be vaccinated. Do not vaccinate clinically ill and debilitated pigeons.
Suitable times for vaccination are given below:
Breeding stock: 4-6 weeks before mating.
Young pigeons: 4 days before weaning in the nest.
Racing pigeons: 4-6 weeks before the start of the racing season.
Show pigeons: 4-6 weeks prior to exhibitions.


Vaccine:
For the purposes of active immunisation, a vaccine is available which confers a stable immunity within 2-3 weeks of vaccination. This immunity should be renewed and extended at the appropriate time before it wears off by means of a booster.

chevivac-P200
Dose: 0.2 ml per pigeon
Application: strictly subcutaneous injection, administered dorsally in the neck in the direction of the tail, but not immediately behind the head.
Duration of immunity: 12 months


Additional measures:
The following measures ensure that vaccination is successful, thus safeguarding the health and performance of the pigeons:
- birds to be kept under the correct conditions
- the best possible diet to strengthen the condition
- administration of livimun® to boost the specific immune reaction
- give the birds multivitamin EB12
- protect the flock against the introduction of pathogens.

Special advice:
If vaccination against paramyxovirus cannot be carried out before the age of 21 days, but at a later stage, a preventive treatment with adenosan is recommended, starting 3 days before vaccination until 4 days after vaccination."


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*Photos of pigeon taken 30 minutes ago*

The light in the room is constantly on and the loft temperature is not hot or cold just perfect....

Some Pigeons...











These babies are about 11 days old now, they look fine and there necks are fine.. (sorry about all the poo, these pigeon poo like there is no tomorrow)










The two young squab are underneath this beautiful angry father pigeon (he looks beuaitful when in good mood):










Sitting on eggs


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*pictures taken about 45 minutes ago*

The light in the room is constantly on and the loft temperature is not hot or cold just perfect....

Some Pigeons...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3yy4zpnfcemfzh/20131112_174705.jpg


These babies are about 11 days old now, they look fine and there necks are fine.. (sorry about all the poo, these pigeon poo like there is no tomorrow)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lxqnghfxyn2dwsj/20131112_174734.jpg

The two young squab are underneath this beautiful angry father pigeon (he looks beautiful when in good mood):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1hbfte7z36pe2k/20131112_174758.jpg

Sitting on eggs

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fq89y91xk7x3ew9/20131112_174809.jpg

Another mother on eggs

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5o8z4k461fjmjv3/20131112_174817.jpg

The laziest pigeon in my loft, good at eating and ****ting...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fh498zkotucnbnw/20131112_174847.jpg
One of my best pigeon, flying time nearly 14 hours

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tsetmhkpz5z716q/20131112_174853.jpg

My home grown pigeon
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iy6o85nwppvpihh/20131112_174857.jpg

The father of the squabs that are 11 days old (few weeks back i had get rid of there other babies, who were infected, but these babies are just fine)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f5jah5y8aq76nrz/20131112_174914.jpg

The mother of the squabs that are 11 days old
https://www.dropbox.com/s/houkbw7141c2azs/20131112_174918.jpg

FINALLY the lonely PIGEON who is infected, he is tilting his neck in the pick and he just tilts a little more then this nothing more now:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p7igvku3qrutlc9/20131112_175015.jpg
I hope the pictures have loaded and you can see them....

please comment...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why do you leave the light all all the time? You can get a reptile heat emitter that doesn't throw light, just a nice warmth. It would also give lots more heat than a light.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

jasim786 said:


> I will post pictures of my four cubs tomorrow... and god know what the hell has happened to my pigeons would you believe it 4 more eggs have been laid, i just checked now..... lol more squabs on the way..
> 
> 2 squabs are 12 days old now
> 2 squabs are just over a week and looking healthy
> ...


Why would the vet lie to you? To confirm you can get the tests done from some other place. To be on the safe side pls continue with 60 days retriction. If it would have been salmonella then it would have been a disaster..!?! So I think it is pmv

I enjoyed the pics you shared. Other pigeons look fine in the pics but you can never tell... Hope everything stays ok.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Why would the vet lie to you? To confirm you can get the tests done from some other place. To be on the safe side pls continue with 60 days retriction. If it would have been salmonella then it would have been a disaster..!?! So I think it is pmv
> 
> I enjoyed the pics you shared. Other pigeons look fine in the pics but you can never tell... Hope everything stays ok.



Yup I am still carrying on with the 60 days, it wont harm me or pigeons so why not.

However looking at the pictures of the squabs, you think if any of them had PMV (which they should have had if my loft was infected) would have looked this healthy?

I check there stomach after every feed I do, and it full belly lol. I just hope they dont catch PMV and start turning there necks.

Regards


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## lg5555 (Aug 2, 2013)

*pmv*

Your pigeons all look alike. Are they all related and how many did you start with?
Is this your favorite color?


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

lg5555 said:


> Your pigeons all look alike. Are they all related and how many did you start with?
> Is this your favorite color?


I started with 6, 

My pigeons are all Pakistani breed, and tw of them are Iranian high flyers.

They do differ in colour, some are black and blue mix, some are white and some are red and white.

However these pigeons are fed top quality food with vitamans and calcium fed regularly, hence like Brocky says they survived this PMV, none of my pigeons died from the virus (touch wood), and are recovering or recovered very well.

The infected PMV pigeon that's separated, its looking so good now, with no neck twisting stunts and I can see he is putting weight on and he hardly has any movement. I am proud that i joined Pigeon talk, the advise has helped me keep them alive otherwise all would have been dead.

Regard


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

jasim786 said:


> Yup I am still carrying on with the 60 days, it wont harm me or pigeons so why not.
> 
> However looking at the pictures of the squabs, you think if any of them had PMV (which they should have had if my loft was infected) would have looked this healthy?
> 
> ...


Sorry,nothing can be said by mere looking at the pics. Maybe your other birds are never infected or maybe they are past the pmv infection. And they are not shedding any virus so your squabs didn't get the infection. I don't wanna say any negative things,looking at the optimistic and hopeful side instead. Gotta say again yours is an unusal pmv story.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*UPDATE on PMV Pigeons*

Hi All,

Just thought I update you lot and get some more tips.

1 - The infected Pigeon that clearly showed all signs of PMV, is still eating fine and drinking and daily fed Manaka. for the past 2 weeks now or more, I have not seen him twist his neck or event turn it around. His body strength is very powerful, sometime when I have to feed him it takes me ages just to control him. he has had no fits and when i let him out in the little saperate room, his landing and flying looks perfect and his stand looks brilliant.

NOW QUESTION - Do you guys think it be safe for me to put him back in the LOFT??? (i do have 8 squabs in there).

2 - The SQUABS are growing, the black and white squabs are fine and now standing up and walking about in there little area, the other two squabs are now growing hair and looking fine. 4 more squabs are due within days. (do you think it be better to leave the infected PMV pigeon outside till they grow?)

3- All Pigeons are eating fine and drinking fine. The food daily is given with calcium and vitamin, also regularly add garlic crushing to it which they all love. The water is cleaned daily and 3 drops of liquid medicine is added to the water which is used to stop spread of PMV, Salmoenellia and other diseased.

ALL LOOKS good.

now please answer my question.

Regards


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There is nothing you can put in the water to stop the spread of PMV.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> There is nothing you can put in the water to stop the spread of PMV.


well the liquid I have clearly states on the label stop the virus of PMV from spreading through water.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's a virus, and no antibiotic will kill it. What is the liquid?
Besides, it doesn't only spread through the water.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi, Jasim
PMV1 spread through every possible means. If you have some product which could be added to water then it may be used but pmv is caused by virus -dead or alive,they're gonna spill the crap. Regular cleaning and disinfection of loft and containers are very important to really keep pmv from spreading. Adding something to water will be one bit but we gotta do all.


jasim786 said:


> NOW QUESTION - Do you guys think it be safe for me to put him back in the LOFT??? (i do have 8 squabs in there).


Until 60 days restriction is over,you should keep that pigeon isolated. I know its lot o time but you gotta do it if you don't wanna take chances


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Please act responsibly . There have been restrictions placed on the movement of your birds and these must be adhered to for 60 days . Restrictions placed on a loft by the AHVLA are not recommendations...they are orders that must be followed because they were imposed for a very good reason: to stop the spread of disease.


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## jasim786 (Oct 27, 2013)

*UPDATE on PMV pigeons*

Hi All,

Its been nearly 7 weeks, since one of my Pigeon started twisting his neck and PMV was detected in 7 of Pigeons that was tested.

However here is the update:

> The PMV infected Pigeon are showing no neck twisting sign and all are eating and dropping normal

> Regular Vitamin and Manaka feed is done which keeps them warm and water level high.

> 4 SQUABS born during PMV are all well and are now full with hair, 2 of them have started to eat by themselves

> 2 more new SQUABS have been born 2 days ago and are looking perfect and being fed

> 2 of my eggs didnt hatch, they actually just frooze.

All my others Pigeons are eating and dropping well and still inside the LOFT. I ahve sent the letter to AVHL informing them my Pigeons are now fine, however I have now to keep them inside for another 60days LOL.

Also my PMV pigeon that had kept saperate, is still alone and in a box, he actually now looks more healtheir and active then the rest lol, his energy level and power is brilliant.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Good to hear everything's great.
Let's see what AVHLA does next...!


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