# soybeans



## andyw (Mar 3, 2006)

hi i was wondering if it is ok to feed roast soybeans as a sub. for peas???


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Regular dried soybeans would be all right, but I wouldn't feed roasted as many times something is added to the outside of the 'roastee'. Also, I think more of the nutritional value is lost in the roasting process as opposed to drying.Don't know where you're located, but many times one can find a pet store which carries a mix specific for pigeons eliminating the need to mix oneself. 'Course one can always augment their diet, but you'd need to know
the proportional requirements for the individual ingredients.

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

andyw said:


> hi i was wondering if it is ok to feed roast soybeans as a sub. for peas???


A few years ago, we were entertaining the idea of becoming a feed distributor for Brown's Feed. That didn't work out, but they did send us small sample bags of their different feeds. One has Roasted Soybeans. The label says it's the highest protein grain. They recommend 1/2 cup to 3 lbs of feed.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Renee, do you happen to know the percent of soybeans in the mix? 

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> Renee, do you happen to know the percent of soybeans in the mix?
> 
> fp


They are not in a mix. They sell 25lb bags of just the soybeans. I don't know how many ounces a 1/2 cup is. I could weigh some and see if you want me to. Then, that in 3 lbs of feed would give you the percentage.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Not necessarily, I thought this was a mix, but I see now that I misread your post. I’ve purchased Brown’s pellets from NEPS in the past, so somewhat familiar with their product. I haven’t seen the stand-alone roasted soybeans though. My concern was more that the roasted soybeans may have been on the idea of what one purchases as a snack at the store. When made specifically for pigeons, then it becomes a different story.

Think there is something to the qualitative difference in whether a food is raw, dried, or cooked in terms of loss of nutrients, although it may not matter if you were adding it to another mix. Although, I wonder why they roasted soybeans and if they believe that pigeons will eat them more readily, as we do give raw, unsalted peanuts for a treat, but not roasted.

Here's a thread I was reading recently:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8163&highlight=soybeans

fp


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Dessert*

I have used roasted soya beans for years. I buy them in a health food store and at times I can get them coated with honey unsalted of course I do not mix them in the feed but feed them as a treat along with sesame seed and hulled sunflower seed. A hand full of soya and sunflower with a small amount of sesame seed.This I give after the birds have cleaned up their regular feed.I like to think of it as dessert. lol.  .GEORGE


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Think there is something to the qualitative difference in whether a food is raw, dried, or cooked in terms of loss of nutrients, although it may not matter if you were adding it to another mix. Although, I wonder why they roasted soybeans and if they believe that pigeons will eat them more readily, as we do give raw, unsalted peanuts for a treat, but not roasted.
> fp


Hi fp,

Although I don't understand the reasoning of having roasted soy beans in a pigeon mix, I believe raw is usually better.

There is a difference not only in loss of nutrients in the roasting process, but it is also alot more work for the pigeon to digest it being that it is no longer in its raw and natural state. RAW foods are easier on the digestive system and healthier too!


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## andyw (Mar 3, 2006)

i used to get a pre mixed pigeon feed when i only had a few pairs but as i got more birds i started going through the feed faster and i did some research and found that it woounld be cheaper to mix my own feed.

i got my "ingedience" from a book called "raising pigeons for pleasure and profit" by Charles Foy

Yellow corn 50%
peas/R. soybeans 20%
wheat 15 %
milo/***** 15%


is this a good mix? i am very open to advice.


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## andyw (Mar 3, 2006)

the book also said that raw soybeans have something in them that make them hard to digest and the roasting process breaks down this component


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI TREESA AND FP,I have read as ANDY has that there is somthing in uncooked soya beans that causes a problem.I read it in a different book then ANDY .I will try to fine it and bring it up so you can have a look at it and what your opinion might be.I also read where there was some research on roasted soya beans for use as pigeon feed.I will try to get this info for the membors here. GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Trypsin*

TRYPSIN in uncooked soy beans is a PROTEASE inhibitor and protease is the enzyme that brakes down protein for use in the body.By cooking soy beans the Trypsin is reduced by about 95% thus making more soy protein available for use by the body. GEORGE


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Toasted soybeans*

I use this product:

Wieteke picks out the corn (often) and leaves the wheat (almost always). 
Some pigeons pick out the peas over all else.

Belgian product* VERSELE-LAGA* Pigeons: Champion Extra Subliem


Product presentation

Wonderful, scientifically composed mixture, with a high percentage of red maize subliem and Extra Plate maize. In combination with Energy-Corn, Champion Extra Subliem prepares the pigeons for the highest performances.



Ingredients

Red maize subliem 25 % 

Extra Plate Maize 18 % 

Extra Wheat 13 % 

Dari 7,5 % 

Maple peas 5,5 % 

Dun peas 5 % 

Small green peas 4 % 

Safflower 3 % 

Milocorn 3 % 

Vetches 3 % 

* Toasted soya beans 3 % 
*
Mungbeans 3 % 

Hempseed 2 % 

Striped sunflower seeds 1 % 

Buckwheat 1 % 

Linseed 1 % 

Black coleseed 1 % 

German thistle seed 1 % 

http://www.versele-laga.com/Nutri/N...ts/index.jsp?fam=227&ani=-1&ran=7518&pro=7519

Larry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

WOW!! Thanks Geoge, I appreciate the information. Well that has to be the exception to the rule, the ONE legume that is better eaten roasted, then RAW.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

TREESA, I don't think that raw soy is bad but I want to get the most protein out of the soy and I do feed it in very small amounts.I know some race guys that cook up a batch a few days before a race they swear by it . GEORGE


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks George, for clarifying the issue regarding Trypsin. By cooking that out, if one is looking for high protein, there is more bang for the buck essentially. Apparently, drying will not eliminate the protease inhibiting qualities of the Trypsin. The link that I posted earlier is a couple of years old, yet WhiteWingsCA was mentioning the roasting process. I’m guessing that any cooking process would do excepting that some are better for storage than others, and some better for nutritional retention, etc. Some good information here.

fp


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## andyw (Mar 3, 2006)

thanks for all the insight 
ti was very useful


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> .......
> 
> Think there is something to the qualitative difference in whether a food is raw, dried, or cooked in terms of loss of nutrients, although it may not matter if you were adding it to another mix.
> ...........
> ...



OK--maybe not so fast, it may actually matter how much protein one feeds a pigeon after all. In an unrelated jaunt in one of my books, I was looking at the Differential Diagnosis for Drooping and Fractured wings, in the Nutritional Section and read 'excess protein' can cause the rotation of the distal wing in waterfowl. Granted the book didn’t clearly state that this was true for Pigeons, but is this something to be concerned about?

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

feralpigeon said:


> OK--maybe not so fast, it may actually matter how much protein one feeds a pigeon after all. In an unrelated jaunt in one of my books, I was looking at the Differential Diagnosis for Drooping and Fractured wings, in the Nutritional Section and read 'excess protein' can cause the rotation of the distal wing in waterfowl. Granted the book didn’t clearly state that this was true for Pigeons, but is this something to be concerned about?
> 
> fp


It definitely matters with young waterfowl. Too much protein in the diet will frequently cause angel wing. I don't know of any cases of this with pigeons, but we should always try to feed the most correct diet that we can.

Terry


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Many feeds have raw soy bean in them. Now i noticed Ming bean. Now if I remember right ming beans carry 22% protien I used to use mung beans alot In the 70s They are small the birds go after them well And high in protien. But alot of premixed feeds do not have them as they are a little higher in cost then other grains. And premixed feeds Well if You do not watch it or buy a top brand they use the lower grades of grain As many people do not mix there grains now. Several companies offer a mix. But like I said few have high quality grain in them these days.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Robert, if advertising a certain percentage of protein, the mix still needs to provide that per ounce, wouldn't this be so?

fp


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Robert, if advertising a certain percentage of protein, the mix still needs to provide that per ounce, wouldn't this be so?
> 
> fp


 Depends on the rated volume I would guess. Now you take the protien content of the certion grains. By the rated protien of those grain. Now when you use lower grades of those grain I would think the protien level would be reduced. Different grains have a known protien raiting. I believe thats is how many would test the contents. You find some mixes very dusty. dirty, and poor grain being used. When you look at some grains they are shrunk winkled. chiped and such these grains are lower grade. no,1 grain is whole non chiped. not shrunk not winkled. Even grain elevaters trickle the lowere grades of grain into the higher grades to be able to sell at a higher price. Then when tested the grain over all will test high because the trickle small amounts each time they load out rail cars and such. Now pigeons if the feed mix price is lower you get lower grade of feed. GRAINS. problem is what will you get the feed stores to order. They look at cost product on hand how much volume sells and such to buy and stock the pigeon grains. Some double there cost on each retail sell. Some dont. I would drop some pigeon mix brand names that I believe are low quality But Then Some one might read it as a product libility issue. Best just to say look at your mix and see if it has decent grains to it.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

When a feed mix is said to have certian protein level one must understand that that is the avarage of all the protein in the mix.We all know that different grains have different levels of protein,so in order for the bird to get the level that is stated on the bag the bird would have to eat the exact amount of each grain in the mix,we know that is not what happens. As some birds will eat more peas high in protein(23%) while other will eat more corn (9%)much lower in protein There for some birds will get more protein while others will get more carbohydrates and others may even get more fat. All three protein,carbohydrates ,and fats are listed on the bag so rember that those percentages are the avarages in the mix once again we have no control of what the bird will pick when eating. .GEORGE


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

andyw said:


> hi i was wondering if it is ok to feed roast soybeans as a sub. for peas???



Hi Andy, all...



I would like to know more about Soy Beans in order to understand more about their use.

For one thing, Soybeans contain a Botanical homologue of Estrogen, which in theory could make for some undersireable effects if the Beans ( or other raw products of them) are consumed to any great extent.

Fermented Soy Bean products appear to be entirely wholesome and nutritious for man and Bird alike.

My wonderful young Duck loved her Tofu and Misu and I included Tofu in many of her meals. I like these too of course.

Roasted nuts or grains of any kind should not be given to Pigeons ( or any Birds ) in my opinion, since they will neither hydrate properly nor have their innate wholesomeness and nutrition intact...and, they may also have hydroginated oils and or rancid oils on or saturated into them, which are bad for Birds, bad for people, bad for anyone.


Wholseome, properly kept whole Grains are what many Birds are biologically 'meant' to eat...whether 'green', seasoned or long seasoned. Pigeons in Nature eat all three stages of wild Seeds and Grains.

Any form of cooking reduces the nutrition a great deal, as well as in many cases adding inimical contaminants.


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks Robert and George, yes, getting the ones at home to eat everything
put down in front of them isn't happenning where I live. As far as a flock
eating together, some of them are much faster than others so there's no 
guarantee that any one bird is getting the breakdown on the side of the bag, this I fully agree w/you on.

Phil, I agree w/you also that cooked items wouldn't be on their list of things to
eat in the 'pristine' wild, although ferals in urban environments sure eat their
fair share of cooked and junk food. 'Course we all know what it does for us.
I wondered about the estrogen levels in it as well, also, you raise a good point
about the water content of a roasted bean. So all in all, maybe this raises more questions than answers provided, so it will remain a topic of interest that I would need more information on.

fp


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Stay away from Soy Beans for Pigeons. It has undesireable effects that has been know for along time. We have so many grains good for Pigeons, etc. that we don't need them. If ya want High Protein we have many types of Peas, Pellets, Peanuts, Safflower, & probably the best extra protein for nest rearing is Vetch!! .... Other than while Pumping Young (IMO) Pigeons of all types do better on somewhat Lower Protein, like 14%. Just make sure the feed you buy is for animal feed, "NOT FOR PLANTING". Seed for Pigeons needs to be SEASONED............. Happy


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

purgrain uses roasted soybean and soybean oil in their pelleted feeds www.purgrain.com/products3.htm .GEORGE


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I picked up some uncooked, unsalted soybeans for my pigeons a long while back...ended up they wouldn't eat them anyway It's very difficult and often requires steady persistance to get pigeons eating something they are unfamiliar with and especially if they aren't young birds.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

george simon said:


> TRYPSIN in uncooked soy beans is a PROTEASE inhibitor and protease is the enzyme that brakes down protein for use in the body.By cooking soy beans the Trypsin is reduced by about 95% thus making more soy protein available for use by the body. GEORGE


BRAD, Never feed raw soybean as you can see by one of my earlier posts it has a protease inhibitor trypsin, thus making protein unavaible from the soybean. .GEORGE


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

george simon said:


> BRAD, Never feed raw soybean as you can see by one of my earlier posts it has a protease inhibitor trypsin, thus making protein unavaible from the soybean. .GEORGE


Hi George, 

No worries, I gave up trying to get them to eat these quite awhile ago, lol. I figured they weren't necessary anyway since my birds get quite a good variety of seeds combined with pellets


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You will find in some counrties they feed what is avalible. Now the birds thrive ok also. A balanced mix is formulated by man. Theses needs have been researched by man The wild birds they get what they can get And they are healthy. Soy beans have in a way a poison to them But I have not really seen the birds die eating them. Purina made a pellet 2 types purina gold the top brand it is round about the size of a austin winter pea After you get your birds used to it It works great. It was a little higher as to cost. Last Time I bought any it was about 19 dollars for 50 pound bag. I like grain better its more natural. And if you feed your birds hungry They eat what is put out to eat very little waste. Watse is often why people say corn is not ate When over fed they pick and choose what they want to eat. When fed hungry They do not. Now breeding is another thing. You have to over feed slightly so the breeder birds do not go down on wieght as much as they feed out the young. I guess you could caculate young birds times old birds and still feed pretty close But it is easyer to just over feed a little to the breeder birds during the season And to much protien is bad Just like carbs A person has to work out there mix there feeding program to where they notice the birds thrive to there expectation. It takes a time to adjust and then it works.


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