# Should I stop feeding altogether?



## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I'm afraid I have been responsible for creating a problem - or a potential problem.

A couple of years ago I fell in love with a hideous pigeon with stumps for feet and a scar on the back of his neck and skanky feathers, who used to panhandle at an outdoor cafe I went to (I live in San Francisco). I named him Stumpy and he became like my pet. We had a "relationship" (until he disappeared several month later - I never saw him again). 

Anyway I faithfully fed his flock every day for over a year after that, until I stopped going to that cafe. They are in an area populated with restaurants so I'm sure they're OK, though I feel bad that I just abandoned them. They used to wait on the telephone wires and fly down two or three blocks to greet us when they saw me and my dog coming up the hill.

About a year ago I started throwing seed up on the carport roof behind my building, where 11 cars park (myself included). My building is 3 stories and 24 units. The next door building is a mirror image and also has an 11-car carport (which is contiguous with ours - one big shared area). There are lots of large apartment buildings in the area.

Anyway, since I began feeding, the pigeons have been nesting around the buildings in inappropriate areas. I have posted previously about finding dumped nests and broken eggs, because they are nesting on ledges in the carport and crapping on people's cars. One nested in the garbage area and the cleaning people dumped the two eggs and the nest in a bin - I retrieved them and the bird continued to nest but the eggs weren't viable so I was able to remove the nest and eggs and he didn't nest there again.

One pair has been nesting almost continuously on the fire escape outside my kitchen - there's a nice area underneath the fire escape so the people who live on my lightwell don't really see the pigeons nesting though they do flutter up and down the lightwell and the babies squeak like crazy every morning.

Today was when I think I had the realization that I might have to stop feeding.

I heard squeaking coming from the carport area and I knew exactly what that meant - babies! I had been checking for nests and eggs and hadn't seen any. But then when I got back there a pigeon flew out of the next door carport because he recognized me. I went over there to look, and on a TINY ledge next to a parked car were two babies (teenagers maybe) huddled and trying to hide from me. I do not know how any pigeon was able to nest on such a small area, and the eggs didn't fall off and actually hatched, and the babies have lived their whole lives in a few square inches. They are about 6 feet off the ground with no rim or anything.

Fortunately they are on the passenger side of this big jeep, and toward the back, so I'm guessing that when the guy parks there they keep really quiet and he just hasn't noticed them. The ledge is covered in guano, it's really disgusting. 

I just hope they will somehow survive until they fledge.

Basically, I am causing all this nesting by feeding them. They seem to want to nest near the source of food, and I'm guessing they are breeding more often because they are healthier.

Sooner or later, there's going to be a hue and cry about this. Not to mention, I don't doubt that any one of these yuppies wouldn't think twice about killing or poisoning the birds (as long as they didn't have to get their hands dirty).

So...what should I do? Just go cold turkey and stop feeding them? 

I don't want them to starve if their main source of food is suddenly cut off, especially when they are taking care of babies. But there are lots of restaurants around, and a couple of convenience stores, and people do drop food all the time.

Advice?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

It's one of those things which obviously nobody want to think about..or even much utter (which could be the reason why your thread has only gotten 9 views in the past six hours).

But it's something a lot of us probably have often asked ourselves.

I think the answer is, if harm is actually being caused to the Pigeons, then you should stop...and maybe gently dissuade them from setting up nests when you happen to come upon one (this may even mean removing young eggs).

This will 'solve' nothing... other than making them less visible/present around your building. They will still lay as many eggs, and make as many nests..they will just be doing it elsewhere, nearby.


If, however, it is a situation where they seem to be relatively safe and there is no sign of skullduggery regarding cruelty and such, you may just wanna go to a 'maintenance' type routine where you dissuade new nests and try to keep the established ones clean in the immediate vicinity (and maybe even additionally concealed if possible).

You could also try a gradual reduction in feedings. In your neighborhood, they should still be able to get by quite alright.

Wrenching situation, trust me...I know how it feels....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with Jaye. it is a hard decision, and one that many have had to deal with. You think you're doing a good thing by feeding them, and you are. But sometimes it does end up badly. Where they are nesting won't be safe for long, as people will get tired of their cars getting pooped on, or even that the nests are so close to their vehicles. I wouldn't stop feeding cold turkey, especially with babies being fed, but I think you will have to cut back on the feed and hopefully give them time to find other feeding grounds. Just because there are food stores or restaurants in the area doesn't mean that they will find food, and even if they do, it isn't the kind of food that they need to stay healthy on. If there were a park or something like that close by where they also congregated, then you could just change their feeding place. They could adjust to that, but getting them to go somewhere else to be fed isn't so easy. And if your feeding them would in the long run, cause them to be poisoned or otherwise harmed, well then you would be doing them no good service. I know how hard it is, but I think that you will have to start cutting back, and hope that they will be able to find another food source. They may or may not be able to do that. When you feed a small flock, they grow to depend on your feed, but they also breed more, and can become many very quickly.That's when the trouble starts. It's amazing how quickly their number can multiply. I feed a flock in my backyard, and used to give "just so much" so that they wouldn't become totally dependent on me. But then I would see them out there in the hot summertime, or the cold snowy winter, and feel bad for them and started giving extra. The flock did grow. But since I built a loft a few years ago, during the winter months the hawks are just horrible around here. Lots of songbirds have left, and they know my pigeons are in the loft, so they're here all the time. What happens is that the feral flock pretty much stops coming during the winter because of the hawk strikes. They just stop by quickly now and then if desperate for food. Where the poor things go, I have no idea. Obviously they don't find enough food, or they move somewhere else, because come Springtime, the flock that returns is again very small. It does grow a little, but I know that during the winter time, it will unfortunately thin out again. So I don't have to deal with what you are facing. I hope it goes well. Please let us know.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Jay and Jaye,

I think the neighbors are already sick of them pooping on their cars... where the two babies are, I thought because they were behind the passenger side on the wall where the guy doesn't walk, and up about 7 feet high, that maybe he didn't notice them. Then when I went to look more closely I see he has taped a plastic sheet to the car on that side so he's definitely aware of them. I see a lot of twigs and poop and cracked eggs on the ground below the babies - I don't know if he did that or if it just happened because the ledge is so small. The good news I guess is that if he taped that sheet there, he probably doesn't drive his car much. I don't think he knows about this present set of two babies.

The neighbors on my side of the bldg complained about the pigeons flying up and down so the owner hired someone who put a heavy mesh over the top with a zipper in it. I checked and that was completely illegal - it would endanger any tenant who had to exit in an emergency and go up to the roof - imagine hanging off a vertical ladder and reaching above your head in the dark to unzip a zipper before you could get onto the roof? And it also would impede firemen and their equipment if they needed access from the roof.

So I complained to the fire department and it was removed, but then a tenant complained again and they came and put a very lightweight mesh up (no zipper) - and within a few weeks that had ripped (not my doing, swear to god) and the pigeons were back nesting under my fire escape.

It's pretty disgusting, there's poop everywhere. Doesn't bother me as I don't go out there and only my kitchen and bathroom windows face it - but there's a girl next door whose studio window is on the fire escape and what with the fluttering and cooing and poop and babies squealing for food at 7:30 every morning - she's bound to complain. I'm about ready to wait until they fledge and then seal off the mesh myself. Just to protect them from future harm. Because that is a PERFECT nesting spot - it's a wide ledge maybe 3' x 10' and it's UNDER the fire escape and I have astroturf out there, so it's dry, and hidden from view, and the babies can even walk around when they get older. Unlike the other spot where they barely fit now. (to be continued...)


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I looked here: http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm Couldn't get a very good look at them without a flashlight but I'm guessing they're between 1 and 2 weeks old right now. They fledge around 21 days, right?

Anyway there is a huge park across the street but this is a densely populated city and it is overlooked by MANY apartment buildings not to mention passersby so I'd have to feed at night - and it's not really that safe to go out at night as there are homeless people and drunks who hang out there, not to mention muggers and such. You'd think I live in a bad neighborhood but I actually live in an upscale neighborhood - but the City is changing...

There is also a vacant house across the street with a huge front yard. It's got a low gate that i locked but I could easily throw food out there. It has been vacant for quite a while. But of course that could change overnight and then what would I do?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

No...they fledge at 39-42 days. 

That's where it gets tricky because if they are evicted before the..say at 4 weeks old, most people would look and make the assumption that since they are flapping their wings, they can fly away and be OK, but that would not be the case at all. At all.

I am wondering if you can put up something in the garage area which both conceals the babies a bit more and keeps the poop off of the person's car. This way, with the nest less exposed and the car less messed, there's a good chance the babies can grow to fledge without incident.

Putting out food at night doesn't always work much....rodents and such at night. You could try it, however...or maybe early AM. There have been times...long stretches, where I awoke at 5:30 AM to put out food, even though I know my pas wouldn't start arriving for over an hour....

The front yard also might be promising...

But I do think you are on the right track. Better that it be YOU who who manages the pigeon situation at your building, than someone else....


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Hi Jaye,

I've been putting out food at night for over a year and it works OK. We don't seem to have rodents going for the seed. I started falling asleep and forgetting so I've been putting it out in the mornings in broad daylight but that is super risky because any of a number of people whose apartments overlook that area could see me doing it, not to mention there are 22 cars that park back there (11 in our building, 11 in the contiguous carport of the next door building) and if any one of those cars' owners walked back and caught me in mid-act, especially someone whose car is being pooped on, I'd be in trouble.

As for creating a safer platform for these babies, I can do that. But I need some advice.

First, this is not even my building! It's the carport of the next-door building AND, it's the space at the end of the driveway so it is visible from the street. So if any resident, or the manager, is walking into the building (or to the garbage recess or laundry room which are both off the driveway) they would see me working on this. Not to mention the people in the apartments at the back (six of them) - I don't know if one of them owns that jeep that I'd be climbing all over!

Can't be helped. Maybe I'll do it at night.

So, I'll go out and take photos and post them so you can see what the situation looks like. The walls are cement but the roof of the carport is wood framed (2x4s) so I should be able to bolt something to it that would float above the top of the jeep. Whoever owns it would probably notice the ledge but maybe if I make it flush with the carport overhang, he won't.

So, my questions for you:

If I "build out" a ledge from the current little spot where the babies are huddled, will the parents continue to feed there? Or will that scare off the parents?

Is a flat board OK or do I need to build up the sides?

Will the babies freak out if I am hammering and drilling near them?

Anything I build that is just a plywood sheet with no sides, they'll still probably poop on the jeep over the edge, in fact it'll get MORE poop on it because right now where they are, they are not directly over the jeep, but on the side.

But you'll see better what I mean when I post the photos.

Thanks,

A'a


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

PS took some photos, will post them later. How do I know whether the parents are still feeding the babies? I heard them squeaking a few days ago and the only time I ever hear babies vocalize is when the parents are feeding. But there's not even any room for the parents on that little ledge. I do know a pair is "roosting" (not nesting) not far from there - could those be the parents? And I am continuing to put plenty of food out - in fact I feed twice a day because the flock that shows up when I feed at random hours is fairly small, and they seem to just eat until everything is gone - and I'm afraid the parents won't get food.

At what age can the babies actually eat real food - seed and the like? Do the parents feed them partially digested food? Or are they regurgitating whole seeds from their crops? Yes I know I could look it up but I hope one of you will just reply and tell me - I'm so busy these days with a project for work I barely have time to think about the pidgies.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The babies should be able to eat real food now but they likely don't know how or would recognized the seed as food.
By this stage of development, the parents are feeding them chunky stuff.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

That sounds like a hecka project. I was just thinking maybe make a small shelf with some "L" brackets..or even buy one at a hardware store or such, and somehow mount it there to give then a tad more room. Something prefab, even:

http://www.closet-shelf.com/2010/10/09/wood-shelf-brackets-image/

...halfway down the page.

Or if not, then maybe just a flat piece of 1x6 or something...although I think I get it...it's a concrete wall so it'd be tricky to mount it to concrete...

Bolting thru 2x's and such...I can understand why you would be concerned with doing that.

No it wouldn't scare off the parents, providing you could get the whole thing done in 15 minutes or less. Yes, it may dishevel the nest area a bit, but it would take more than that for parents to abandon their babies and the nest...although afterward you should still keep tabs.

Glad the night feedings work...when I tried that here it drew rats and mice.....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you were worried about the same problem in 2008, all has been good thus far..why stop now.. unless some new danger has happend..or is there talk with management of the complex to destroy or deter them?


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Hi Spirit Wings - there are a lot more birds and they are now trying to nest on ledges in the carport areas and are crapping all over the cars so that's an issue that is building - and then there have been more complaints about them flying around in the lightwells and nesting and the owner has twice netted over the lightwells - once illegally, and that was removed, and most recently he did it again, also illegal, but lighter, and they broke threw it in a matter of days and are happily nesting here again. So yes, I sense a tenant revolt coming. I'm flabberghasted that these two babies are surviving on a ledge. The person with the jeep is a saint - he just covers that side with plastic and take it off when he has to drive. So he's well aware that they are there and he hasn't bothered them. Though if he just put a box up there they couldn't nest there and he hasn't done that.

Anyway, in response to Jay's suggestion, I was thinking of L-brackets, and while there is some cement, I could definitely screw them into the wood above the cement. Maybe you'll see better when you look at the photos which I've uploaded to flickr.

To start with, here's a pretty good photo of one of them:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5803704596/


And here is the whole album:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

They are on a little ledge just forward of the right rear wheel of the jeep. If you see the sign on the white wooden board, they are just forward of that board, beside the wall.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

This gives a good view of exactly where their nest is relative to the car and the carport structure. I think I could bolt a plywood sheet there and the jeep owner wouldn't even really notice if it were flush with the bottom of the white board.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5803704992


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

PS How can I be sure the parents are actually FEEDING them?


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

The parents are never there with the babies when I go and check on them. Though I've heard that after they're a bit older they continue to visit and feed them but they don't actually spend all their time with them? There is definitely a mated pair that hangs out in the carport all the time about 50 feet away.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SerendipityCA said:


> The parents are never there with the babies when I go and check on them. Though I've heard that after they're a bit older they continue to visit and feed them but they don't actually spend all their time with them? There is definitely a mated pair that hangs out in the carport all the time about 50 feet away.


you are right they come and feed a few times a day, it is easy to miss. It sounds like you should try to cut the population as they will get noticed at some point and that may be a bad outcome for them as you already know and are worried about. you may not beable to reach every nest but the ones you do you can remove the eggs and give them fake eggs..just as if you had your own pigeon loft.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi SerendipityCA ,
I just wanted to send you some good wishes and praise you for your efforts with helping these little guys. It sounds like a difficult situation, with the way pigeons breed up so quickly around reliable food sources.

I remember feeling soo bad the first time I needed to leave home for an extended time.I worried like crazy about the birds I was feeding and how they would cope with my leaving. In one year I had to leave three times for over two weeks at a time. It was actually kind fo good to get away from the burdeon of feeling responsible for them, and to also to see how they coped, rather than live in fear of their death in my absence. And mostly, they coped just fine, and returned when they relasied I was back from vacation. Over time I learned that the pigeons do prefer the seed I give them because its reliable, but they are in this area to begin with because of the local schools. Thats where they get most of their food from, but during school holidays they have to go foraging elsewhere, which is how they found me. Perhaps this is the case with your flock too...do you have schools in your area? Where do you think they came from before you met them?


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

That Jeep owner is Awesome- let's face it, he or she obviously knows that the nest is there, and their response to having pigeon poop all over their car is to tape a big hunk of plastic to that area! I think you have a pigeon ally there.


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## clawsywp (Apr 12, 2008)

great thread thank you

eugh, it is very sad, someone I knew ages ago, a while back they got very worried about causing more problems......

He had to clear out a nest(no eggs thu), birds there though for about 4 years ... he had to stop any feeding that he may have done (he claimed they didnt feed but who knows), and remove a nest and constantly shoo the birds away
he was very sad doing this. he had felt a lot of affection for them. He worried that the pair who had been there for quite some time - about 4 Years i think, in this safe little place, would have suffered a great deal because he had made them soft, a nice place to live etc and then abruptly kicked them out, that it wouldve been horrible for them.

He was upset. Cause he loved them.

Do you think it wouldve been best maybe if he had tried to catch and take them to a sanctuary (together)?


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Hi, to answer your questions, I live in a residential area that is criss-crossed by commercial streets with tons of restaurants and Starbucks-style cafes, and lots of foot traffic, so the pigeons would do OK without me. 

I just went out and nailed up a cardboard apple box right next to their little ledge. I'll post photos later but basically I took one side off completely (next to the ledge - so they can just walk into the box) and then I cut a hole in the other side which is the directions the parents fly in from. I'm going to put seed in the box.

The bottom is two folded pieces taped together in the middle - I reinforced the tape and put a cardboard sheet in to line it so I think because they're so light, there's no chance it will collapse under them. Heck, if it can hold apples it can hold two baby pidgies!

I'm a bit worried about whether the parents will continue to feed them now that their little envirnoment has been altered. What do you think?

They were very good (probably frozen in fear!) while I was hammering right next to them. I did it quickly. The wood is INCREDIBLY hard so while I started with 3" nails I gave up and used finishing nails which even them, I couldn't get all the way in, but I used about four and then hammered them flat so it should hold.

I'll put a note on the jeep guy's windshield later on.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I don't really think there's a need to sanctuary any of my pidgies. They're survivors. if you remove one nesting area they'll find another. at least in my neighborhood.


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## clawsywp (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh I didnt mean to mean you should take them to a santuary.

I know of someone who let a pair of pigeons live somewhere safe for a number of years, gave them food also i am guessing.

But then had to move them on in a hurry and he was worried they would be suffering.
And wondered if it wouldve better to try get them to a sanctuary.
Was after anyone's opinion on the matter.

About the box- I think if the nest is in the same place and only has a covering that the parents can see or hear the babies and get to them, then the parents wont abandon them. But i am not an expert, but Ive seen similar things done and the parents stayed.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Went out, they are still on the ledge but one of them was partially in the box and there was poop in the box so I'm hoping they'll move in. I hope the floor isn't too flexy for them to be comfortable being in it. The jeep is gone - I wanted to put a note on his windshield. I don't want him to think someone is helping the pidgies to move in permanently. He didn't leave the plastic tarp which is weird, usually he tapes it to the wall while he's out. Maybe he figures with the box there, no more poop...

Here are photos of the box setup. By the way, I did touch the babies - they squeaked and squealed a little but I don't *think* they were too traumatized. I wanted to help one of them kind of scoot into the box. They didn't panic...I've been going by and talking to them and chirping at them for a couple of weeks now so hopefully they trust me a little, but who knows.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5819726065/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5820288244/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5819725933/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5819725885/in/photostream/


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## clawsywp (Apr 12, 2008)

wow that box looks GREAT, they are lucky pigeons!


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