# Cheating in Pigeon Racing



## derf

Hi,
I'm new to this forum and am hoping for some information. I have been racing pigeons for over 30 years and have had a fair amount of success.
Something that has happened in our club recently has made me seriously consider dropping out of the sport.
Over the years, I have encountered many great flyers who I considered a true champion, but right now, in our club, we have a "gentleman" which goes way beyond winning out of turn.
This individual will not only win every club and money race in the area, but he will always have 18 to25 birds on a drop for club races and almost as many as he sent on a drop for money races. We are talking every race here with very few exceptions.
The club officers have thought the obvious, that the individual was using drugs to stimulate his birds, but I maintain that his results are too consistent for drugs. He continues to get several birds on the first drop.
This gentleman has ties to Europe and I believe that he is somehow manipulating the electronic timer. People have been at his house when he has clocked the alleged winner, but no one can be certain that the birds he clocked are those that he sent other than the fact that they have the same band number.
I believe that he has duplicate bands and chip bands somehow and is able to clock at will.

My question for this forum is this: Is it possible to cheat with a modern electronic timer. I am not asking how to cheat, because I don't want the technical details, but are there instances, especially in Europe, where people have figured out how to manipulate these timers?

I am hoping that someone can shed some light on this because this individual is single-handedly destroying a club which has been in exsistance for a very long time.

Thanks in advance,

derf


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## First To Hatch

Hey "derf" lol. I think it is possible for that to happen because like you previously stated these clocks we are using are quite ancient in the technological world and I'm sure if you give it to someone that knows what they are doing they can mess with it. On the other hand the person in question that you are speaking of I doubt would go off and figure out/find someone how to do that to the clocks. I maintain the theory that he is giving them "something" whether it is an illegal over the counter or something in a pigeon supplement/product, I don't know. But one thing is for certain the club is getting ruined, and I'm waiting to see how this young bird season goes and if it is like last years then I don't think its worth racing anymore. All the time, money, energy, gas, wear and tear on my vehicle is not worth for a chance at 2nd loft. So I'll just keep a few pairs for myself and send some off to one loft races. I also realized my brother and I spent almost $500 on the money races I think I have a better chance sending two birds to a one-loft race for next year which is what I'll probably end up doing.


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## markp1969

Maybe his GPS location is not correct therefore giving him an advantage.


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## First To Hatch

markp1969 said:


> Maybe his GPS location is not correct therefore giving him an advantage.


That doesn't explain taking the first 10+ spots in the races though in my opinion.


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## Pigeonfriends

well if clubs get suspicious have a club leader record his win with a camera  i mean if he really is that impressive he should be able to let others see, right?


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## markp1969

First To Hatch said:


> That doesn't explain taking the first 10+ spots in the races though in my opinion.


If his loft GPS was transposed by .5 degrees it would give him a 20 mile head start. We caught this situation on the first race of our old birds. We kept a manual log book of the lofts and when entered into the computer he transposed .71 to .17 so the computer thought his birds had to fly farther which also gave him better time.


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## billyr70

His GPS location could very well do it if there is a error. Have a officer go out and recheck his latitude and longitude. There is something going on and you should be able to figure it out.

Is he a sensible person? Maybe you guys could have a talk with him and let him know your concerns, hell, if it was me and i was winning and not cheating i would gladly want to prove my birds were better or my system was working better then everyone eases.


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## Kastle Loft

billyr70 said:


> His GPS location could very well do it if there is a error. Have a officer go out and recheck his latitude and longitude. There is something going on and you should be able to figure it out.
> 
> Is he a sensible person? Maybe you guys could have a talk with him and let him know your concerns, hell, if it was me and i was winning and not cheating i would gladly want to prove my birds were better or my system was working better then everyone eases.


That's a good idea. You could possibly check the coordinates using google earth and satellite imagery if you didn't want to approach him just yet. If his loft has been there for a few years it's probably in the satellite images. You can get very accurate gps coordinates from google earth. I actually use it to double check what I get from my gps unit when I'm at a loft in person.


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## derf

The GPS error is a very real possibility and I will look into that. 

As far as talking to the man, we did that at the last meeting a couple of weeks ago and it ended up with him slinging mud at our President and almost getting his clock cleaned. It wasn't pretty.

However, the one thing that makes me think it's not a GPS error is the fact that this man continues to clock, in one drop, an amazing number of birds. In one race, I believe it was a 300, but I may be wrong about that, he had the first 18 positions with many of the birds clocking at the same exact time. Plus, and here is the impossible part, his friend was boasting that he started the old bird season with 50 and ended with the same 50. Now this man was in every race including 2-300's, 2- 400s a 500 and a 600 and didn't lose 1 bird! Is there a Flyer in the world that can make that statement? This goes beyond the realm of possibility!
The man is cheating somehow, making fools out of every flyer in the club, and laughing about it.


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## mikeyg

Now this man was in every race including 2-300's, 2- 400s a 500 and a 600 and didn't lose 1 bird! Is there a Flyer in the world that can make that statement? This goes beyond the realm of possibility!

This last statement says it all....His birds would have to have an F16 fighter escort to survive that many races without one single loss!!!!


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## Granny Smith

Why can't club officials be at his loft during the race? Witness if he really is getting 18 birds on a drop, and recording the times that the birds are entering the loft. A few hand calculations will tell you if the ypm are correct.


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## Alamo

I have read many articules about MANY great flyers in Europe...There results are exactly what you have written about your local guy...Just look at Mile Ganus`s record in conjunction with a guy in Canada,and in Holland,I beleive....You would think he was cheating also,BUT ALL THESE GREAT HANDLERS have GREAT PIGEONS.....This guy could/can have great pigeons...Lets face it....It all could be very real....Alex Bieche flys OB`s and YB`s,and he is very hard to beat....There are many great pigeon flyers in the USA.....Sometimes you have ONE in your back yard....He might not be nationally known,but none the less,he is a great pigeon guy...Years ago,in the Pittsburgh area,there was Lou Arcuri,Pete Beley,Rich Dworek(just retired from the sport),and many others....Check out Rich Dworeks record for All-American honers for the last 30 years...You will be amased....No one ever thought he was cheating...He would clock many pigeons in the money,against many lofts....When I 1st started in 1984,all I heard was the man to beat was Rich Dworek,Pete Beley,Lou Arcuri etc on race day....
PS:Best way to catch a cheat....You do not RELEASE the PIGEONS....You tell him the birds are UP @ 8am.clear skies,no wind....When he shows up at the club,with 25 birds clocked,you got HIM.....But I think this guy is just plain good !!! Alamo


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## derf

.But I think this guy is just plain good !!! Alamo
This thought has crossed all of our minds and is a possibility (as remote as it may be.)
However, I fly one of the toughest courses in the country (opinion) with a Major mountain range to the north and to the south. On a typical 300, the birds will go in and out of at least 4 major valleys and cross or circumvent at least 12 major lakes. 0 losses for the year?
We are not talking how good a flyer is here, we are talking about beating impossible odds with 50 birds! 

Back to my original question- has anyone heard of any individuals cheating with an electronic timer?


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## klondike goldie

maybe he is just a great pigeon flyer. does he ever have a bad race or a bad season?


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## ejb3810

I believe that somewhere I read something about irregularities with some brand of electronic timers, but I don't recall where or the details.
Who does the chip band registration in your club? He can't have duplicate chip bands?
It certainly sounds too good to be true? If the club were to delay release by a day, as suggested above, and not tell the guy it would be interesting to see if his birds arrive before they are even released?


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## Alamo

Would like to know what STATE you live....How big a Combine...How many birds per race in club or combine.....Here in the Pittsburgh area,our IRPC combine averages 30/32 lofts,and 500 birds average per YB race....That`s what I want to know from you DERF...I don`t want any names of people....Just the results of what the competition is in the Combine you guys fly in.....Alamo


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## First To Hatch

Is it possible he is that good, yes it is. 

But I stand by the belief that it is genetically impossible to breed that many champions I think that for every 100 you breed 5-10 can be good. I have also looked into European fliers getting big drops they don't not as big as this guy and I think that "derf" forgot to mention that this stuff happens with a 20 minute lead over everyone else. I feel like we have some really good fliers that should be competing with him but aren't these guys have hall of fame pigeons and they are appearing as mediocre street pigeons. 

Like derf said we fly the toughest course (in my opinion as well) we will very rarely get a race over 1250 YPM most are under 1400 ypm usually the have a tail wind if it is anything over 1350 ypm.


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## First To Hatch

klondike goldie said:


> maybe he is just a great pigeon flyer. does he ever have a bad race or a bad season?


If their is 7 day birds he has 6. One race that was really tough for everyone I believe he had 1st-18th by 20 minutes. One time their was a race where there was only like 50 birds on the clock sheet and 10 were his. 

Alamo, in young-birds their is about 600 pigeons the first few weeks in the A nd B races, then that number drops when we start having only an A race to about 200 a race. Old birds is anywhere from 50-170 birds I believe. (IDK I don't race old birds but that number sounds correct)


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## dvtlegend

Well, since you mention he scores on the money races, are these birds , birds that are sent to loft races? If he scores on loft races than his birds are that good considering he isn't handling the birds himself. But if he is handling his own then that would be one to question.


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## First To Hatch

He doesn't send them to one loft races. If I was getting these huge drops, you know what I'd do I'd send 10 or 15 birds to the Sun City Million Dollar race but he doesn't send them to one loft races.

But, derf isn't here to argue whether he is cheating or not, he has come to ask if you have seen or ever heard of someone cheating with the clocks.


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## Alamo

First to Hatch...Thanks for the info.....Why I asked is,I wanted to see how much of a combine he flys in...His results are in a combine very much the same as I mentioned above...We also fly through mountains etc...The only difference,the IRPC combine has a 5 bird clocking limit...Only in OB`s,when we are at 400 miles and up,can you clock ALL you can get home in race time....The way this man flys,he should be a DIGEST All-American.....Alamo


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## Pigeon0446

derf said:


> The GPS error is a very real possibility and I will look into that.
> 
> As far as talking to the man, we did that at the last meeting a couple of weeks ago and it ended up with him slinging mud at our President and almost getting his clock cleaned. It wasn't pretty.
> 
> However, the one thing that makes me think it's not a GPS error is the fact that this man continues to clock, in one drop, an amazing number of birds. In one race, I believe it was a 300, but I may be wrong about that, he had the first 18 positions with many of the birds clocking at the same exact time. Plus, and here is the impossible part, his friend was boasting that he started the old bird season with 50 and ended with the same 50. Now this man was in every race including 2-300's, 2- 400s a 500 and a 600 and didn't lose 1 bird! Is there a Flyer in the world that can make that statement? This goes beyond the realm of possibility!
> The man is cheating somehow, making fools out of every flyer in the club, and laughing about it.



The part where the guy says he had 50 out of 50 left doesn't mean he actually had them all I know plenty of guys who say they never lose a bird but when it comes time for the money races they only ship 3 out of the 10 birds they banded for the race. And maybe the guy aint cheating there were guys doibg that around here back in the late 90's. Where ppl were topping a combine of over 2000 birds with 8 birds on the drop by over 100ypm. It was the system they were flying there were a few guys using the darkening system and were killing everybody. It was said they were using the darkening system to cover up drugs but you stiull need those birds to want to come home no matter what drugs they are on. They are in the process of implementing a drug testing protical in my combine now it's gonna cost everybody to either catch the cheaters or prove they aren't cheating. It's gonna be random aswell as target the lofts that have been flying really well so I'm guessing my birds will be tested at some point this season. If I when ever I get them ready I know I'm gonna miss the first 2 races after the bout of pox my birds went through. What I'm hearing is it's from ppl getting a vaccine from Poland that is for a different strain of pox and that's why my birds got it after I had poxed them and saw that it had taken earlier in the year.


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## raftree3

In the little club I belong to we don't have a clocking limit but I can see where that's not such a bad idea. We all fly because we enjoy competition but when having birds in the top 10% of the race is your goal and one loft takes most of the spots on a very regular basis it takes out some of the fun.


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## First To Hatch

I've thought about suggesting a clocking limit but like some club members said at the meeting "so you want us to fly for 6th place" but either way I'd rather fly for 6th place then 2nd loft and 17th place lol


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## First To Hatch

But you know what at the end of the day we really have no idea what is going on and we really want to know what happening, at least I do.


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## boneyrajan.k

I thinks its better not to accuse somebody without any proof.Who knows,he may be a great flier and a future legend.I think jealously will also kill any sport


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## Alamo

Folks,a clocking limit is childs play...Let me give an example.....There are 200+ lofts in the Central Jersey Combine....Also 100+ lofts that Pigeon0446 flys against....Lets say they put in a 5 bird clocking limit...Now,lets say Walter gets his 1st bird,and it winds up in 52nd place...There was 1,753 birds in the race...That is a very good result...But was it really ??? If there were a few lofts ahead of Walter`s pigeon,that clocked the LIMIT,but had alot more birds home,and could not clock them,you are fooling yourself....When I fly my birds,I want to know WHAT PLACE DID MY BIRDS REALLY GET !!! This is the ONLY way you know your birds ARE GOOD ENOUGH and you are handling them in the proper way....Getting a 52nd place,when alot of other birds could have beaten your pants off,is no way to RACE pigeons...Your are fooling yourself....It is better to really know,so that you can get better pigeons,THAT WILL REALLY get you to the top of the sheet....Alamo
PS:Sorry for the rant...But clocking limits are my pet peve !!!


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## NZ Pigeon

Alamo said:


> Folks,a clocking limit is childs play...Let me give an example.....There are 200+ lofts in the Central Jersey Combine....Also 100+ lofts that Pigeon0446 flys against....Lets say they put in a 5 bird clocking limit...Now,lets say Walter gets his 1st bird,and it winds up in 52nd place...There was 1,753 birds in the race...That is a very good result...But was it really ??? If there were a few lofts ahead of Walter`s pigeon,that clocked the LIMIT,but had alot more birds home,and could not clock them,you are fooling yourself....When I fly my birds,I want to know WHAT PLACE DID MY BIRDS REALLY GET !!! This is the ONLY way you know your birds ARE GOOD ENOUGH and you are handling them in the proper way....Getting a 52nd place,when alot of other birds could have beaten your pants off,is no way to RACE pigeons...Your are fooling yourself....It is better to really know,so that you can get better pigeons,THAT WILL REALLY get you to the top of the sheet....Alamo
> PS:Sorry for the rant...But clocking limits are my pet peve !!!


I agree! I am starting my first young bird season this year, Have my first hatch yesterday which is cool, I do not expect to win but I want to know what the birds in my loft are truly like. Then I can build on that and try to win from there. What I am saying is what competition is true if you have birds better than yours which are almost disqualified in a way.


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## NZ Pigeon

raftree3 said:


> In the little club I belong to we don't have a clocking limit but I can see where that's not such a bad idea. We all fly because we enjoy competition but when having birds in the top 10% of the race is your goal and one loft takes most of the spots on a very regular basis it takes out some of the fun.


Sorry to sound harsh but maybe you should strive to be "that loft"


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## derf

As a pigeon flyer, my birds can fly with the best.

As an engineer and scientist,
I learned a long time ago that if it sounds too impossible to be true, it isn't true.

Once again- has anyone ever heard of anyone, anywhere cheating with electronic timers?

Thank you


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## Alamo

DERF....I can say I haven`t seen anything in print about what you asked...It would seem that fooling around with extra chip rings,that are registered to certain birds,could be REAL.....I have a 15 YB team this year...Lets say I have TWO chip rings for every bird...WOW,who could beat me ??? I beleive I have the answer you need to find out for sure...I will PM you,and tell you what your club/combine should do...Alamo


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## Crazy Pete

Not to say that you can't cheat, Unicon has a port on the side that you can hook up to any PC, does yours? Maybe you should contact the maker and see what they have to say. 

I'll bet if I had a club master I could find some body to hack it and manipulate the numbers.
Dave


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## Granny Smith

Granny Smith said:


> Why can't club officials be at his loft during the race? Witness if he really is getting 18 birds on a drop, and recording the times that the birds are entering the loft. A few hand calculations will tell you if the ypm are correct.


I still haven't heard why a club official(s) could not witness the race at this person's loft, and record times that the first few birds trapped. Verify the coordinates, and perform some hand calculations. This is what had to be done prior to electronic clocks. It would not be very difficult to verify his electronic results.


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## Southwing

I have never heard of anyone cheating with the clock, I have heard of people somehow switching birds to take back home after they have been clocked in for the race. Is he on the long end of the club or short end ? We change are racing direction each yr, and you can tell how it favors different fliers if we never change I could see the same person winning most of the time, are club is so spread out that the people on the long end have the advantage most of the time. I see year to year depending which way we are flying guys getting the first 15 drops maybe out to 200 but after that I have a hard time believing that he could continue to get every race top spots. Something seems fishy!! Call someone that fixes or sells the type of clocks that you club uses and ask if there was any way someone could do this. I had my clock updated a few yrs back so there are people that know how to work on them. I would set it up with the release person that the birds be held back an hour or so and don’t tell anyone and see what happens.


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## Pigeon0446

Southwing said:


> I have never heard of anyone cheating with the clock, I have heard of people somehow switching birds to take back home after they have been clocked in for the race. Is he on the long end of the club or short end ? We change are racing direction each yr, and you can tell how it favors different fliers if we never change I could see the same person winning most of the time, are club is so spread out that the people on the long end have the advantage most of the time. I see year to year depending which way we are flying guys getting the first 15 drops maybe out to 200 but after that I have a hard time believing that he could continue to get every race top spots. Something seems fishy!! Call someone that fixes or sells the type of clocks that you club uses and ask if there was any way someone could do this. I had my clock updated a few yrs back so there are people that know how to work on them. I would set it up with the release person that the birds be held back an hour or so and don’t tell anyone and see what happens.


Of course the ppl making/selling the clocks are gonna say there's no way to cheat with them even if there was. If it was public knowledge that you could cheat with any brand of clock would any club allow the use of those clocks anymore?


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## parrisc

*bands*



derf said:


> As a pigeon flyer, my birds can fly with the best.
> 
> As an engineer and scientist,
> I learned a long time ago that if it sounds too impossible to be true, it isn't true.
> 
> Once again- has anyone ever heard of anyone, anywhere cheating with electronic timers?
> 
> Thank you


Recently I bought some of the new Pro Chip bands from Siegel. They will no longer support the use of BR chip banks after 2014. The reason they gave me was that the older bands were easy to duplicate. I guess that means someone was duplicating them and could be used to cheat. 

However this guy you are talking about, I would buy or try to buy some of his birds, he most likely is the real thing. He he refuses to sell you some birds, then for sure he is the real deal.


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## First To Hatch

I think it is possible to win 10 out of 10 young bird races my mentor has won 9 out of 10 before, but he did it with less than a handful of pigeons. I'm not saying this guy is cheating because he wins a lot I'm saying because he does it with a ton of pigeons, 10 birds on a drop is a small drop for him, the 600 was the most reasonable drop, with two birds. 

Once again, it is genetically impossible to breed that many great pigeons. You can be the greatest pigeon breeder in the world but their is still genetics and genetics says that not every pigeon can come out a champion. 

I'm quite honestly getting quite annoyed with people saying "hes just that good" if you think that then I think your crazy, for thinking it is genetically possible to accomplish such a feat!!!


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## Crazy Pete

I would say if any one can do it Ganus should be able to, every young bird he sells is out of the best bird ever brought into the US. Now I'm not saying he has bad birds, I just agree it's not possible. Ganus sent over 50 birds to South Africa and only finished the season with under 15.
Dave


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## Alamo

Ganus birds have great records all over the world....The one race that his birds haven`t won is South Africa....And that`s easy to understand....Pigeons bred in very hot climates,if they are great pigeons,do well....White flights,and Reds don`t stand a chance....Ganus`s pigeons will win,when he comes up with the right combination for the SA race...A strong long distance pigeon,like say from Arizona etc,seems like it would do well...And there have been some from the USA that have done well....The guy who is partnered with MG in Canada,had some outstanding results..See GFL`s ads in books,or on his site....Also in Europe,partners with another VG flyer....Results that DERF is talking about COULD be true...This guy could have one heck of a flying system...Light or Dark or whatever...He might have developed his own system,and his birds,all of them respond very well to it....Anything is possibel.....Alamo


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## swagg

I dunno about you, but if i was losing that much money and thought something was up you can bet your butt I would be sitting at your loft or on the street near your loft watching birds land. If he is being honest he can sit there and laugh at me. But Ill bet he freaks out and tries to make you leave..


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## ejb3810

I have been around a while, and in my line of work I met thousands of different kinds of people. Everyone is not wired the same. It is amazing the way some think and what motivates them.
Maybe this guy is not cheating. Based on the description of what is going on (wins every race, big numbers coming together from all distances, and never losing even one bird) he has the best birds in the world and best training system in the world!
Perhaps he is willing to mentor you? OR, perhaps if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. It's a duck!


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## First To Hatch

If I had the best birds in the world I sure as hell wouldn't be flying in a club with a lil over twenty members I'd send ten birds to all the big one lift races for a huge payout


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## conditionfreak

I know for a fact that anything electronic, can be manipulated. Heck, the government just figured out that our drone planes can be hijacked by someone who makes a visit to Radio Shack.

The record of this gentlemen you described (if your account is spot on), is not feasible. Anthing is possible. But feasibility is low on this one.

Something that should be considered is this method of cheating:

You send a team of birds (good birds), to a race. But the birds you send have not been trained to your actual home. They live in a loft of a relative or friend that is twenty miles shorter than the measurement of your home loft, (could be 20 miles shorter, or could be 30 miles shorter. Whatever).

Then you also have some birds that are released from that "other" loft, that actually live at your home loft, when the first birds start arriving at the "other" ("cheat loft").

Birds will be seen arriving at your home loft, but race birds will be clocking at your "cheat loft".

Here in this area, we have a different situation. The guy who transports and releases the birds, wins "almost" all of the money, in races that involve money awards. Doesn't matter if it is a "Big Money Race with special bands", an "Auction Race", or something like a "Yearling Derby". He does not win all of the money, but the biggest parts of it. His adult son is at the home awaiting the bird arrivals. When the birds are put on the trailer to be transported to the release point, they are then taken to the transporters home before heading down the road to whatever release location. The trailer is "sealed" with standard wire sealers that are used to seal manual clocks.

The trailer used to be "sealed" with zip ties, that could be purchased at any Wal-Mart type store. I demanded a vote on changing that to wire seals and it passed. It caused hard feelins towards me, but most thought it was the thing to do. For obvious reasons. Plus, I think it is AU endorsed or enforced.

Yes. It is silly to allow the transporter to participate in the racing. ESPECIALLY in money races. But the combine members are okay with it. Because they like the guy, and don't want to make waves that might cause the combine to disolve.

I want to say upfront that this "guy" could be winning legit. I don't know for sure either way. But what I do know is that the "appearance of impropriety" is strong, and should be dealt with accordingly.

Many people just want to race pigeons, and do not want to confront or speak up. That is just the way it is.

In your case, I think you should ask the combine to send two representatives to this persons loft. Take out the two birds that came in first on his last race. Then walk them to his front yard and release them. If they go back to that loft (at his home), then you have to look more into his electronic apparatus. On the other hand, if those two birds take off far away, then they may actually live at another location. As stated by others above, it is a simple thing for a couple of members to be at this guys home on race day, and check the first couple of birds that arrive. Write down their approximate arrival time and verify the band numbers. A simple thing, except for the "insinuation" and "distrust" shown to him. Which obviously would piss him off. But it is the right of the club and combine to do this. If he is legit, then he will want to prove his ability and superior pigeons. If that particular race he does not win, then you have something further to discuss in your combine meetings. If he ain't even close to winning, then the cat is out of the bag.

Over the years I have seen numerous methods and attempts at cheating. The AU (and most veteran flyers) are aware of these methods and have rules to aoivd the possibility of them taking place. Such as the old method of a person holding an amputated pigeon leg between their fingers when they put the birds supposed "leg" into the old type counter mark machines. Then they put the bird into the shipping crate, but the counter mark is actually on a detached "leg" palmed in their hand. That is why the rule exists that a flyer is not allowed to handle his own birds at shipping.

I believe the many veteran flyers are quite familiar with the old methods of cheating. But let's face it. Most of us are older and not electronic savvy. We just don't understand that much about electronic "gadgets". We know how to make a phone call on a cell phone, but don't know how to send a simple text message.

There are other methods of cheating. Such as having a financial agreement with the transporter. 

In any sport, cheating or attempts at cheating, surface. Pigeon racing is not different and in fact, is one of the easiest to cheat in, IMO. MLB, the NFL, the NBA and even the Olympics, have their share of cheating. It is just human nature.

It is your responsibility to ferret out cheats in you sport. It is all of our responsibilities to self police our sport.

It will casue hard feelings and in some cases, the lose of flyers (thus competition). It can even cause clubs to shut down.

Not every case of suspected cheating, is actually cheating. Sometimes people are just lucky or just good at what they do. "Trust but verify". It is a just cause to and for the sport.

He may be legit. Tread lightly, but tread.


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## derf

I really appreciate all of the responses which my initial post received, but now a little more clarification:
Many of you, and myself included, think perhaps this guy is just a great flyer. And, you know what? I think he would be based on his handling and training methods- The one fact that cannot be overlooked and, I don't care who out there could tell me about "Old Doc" who used to win out of turn, blah, blah, he scores the top positions with almost every bird he sends to the race, all of the time. 
I know that in recent years, losses in young birds especially have been extremely high. Some blame cell phone towers, some blame wind turbines etc.
But where I fly, we have had more of what we used to call smashes in the past couple of years than I can ever remember in the previous 28 years which I flew. I have seen many races where flyers will get no day birds or 1 or 2 if they are lucky and this man will get 18 on a drop! Statistically and absolutely impossible. He has done the same thing on money races which will include a racing "front" of over 100 miles from North to South, a handful of daybirds, but this guy gets the first 6 on a drop! 
And, at the end of the season, it is not unusual to go to a local auction and see him selling these very "champions" for $20 a piece out of his car!
He never, to my knowledge, has sent birds to a one loft race or any other type of race where someone else would be flying his birds.
At our club auction, he rarely buys anyone elses birds, rarely brings a bird, but he will buy almost every band that goes up for auction at any price.
Incidentally, he is not doing this for the money because if you look at how much he spends at our Auction Race, for example, it far exceeds all of the prize money!

Where did his birds come from? Several different sources, but
in 2005 when my Dad died, my heart was no longer in the sport and I gave him the choice of any or all of my birds-free of charge. I just wanted to get out of the sport. He took over 50 pigeons, many of which several of you reading this would have paid $xxxx just based on their performance and pedigree. When I got back in the sport, I never asked him for any of them back, but was told by him that they all were no good and he got rid of all of them, only to find out from a friend that several of his better birds were bred from mine. Two years later, some of these birds were still turning up in interesting places.

BTW, as far as the duplicate chip bands and access to the technology, this person has direct contect to a European country which is quite involved in pigeon racing. I believe he not only has he had someone give him the capability to manipulate the elctronic timer, but also has access to duplicate club bands. He usually only flys blues and checkers, so I believe that he probably has several blue checks with club band #1234 etc. 
So much for the arrival of race birds.

Now, I know that many of you are thinking that any of my suspicions are not that difficult to prove, but the amount of apathy that I have experienced at the club from the very people that are saying that they will no longer fly if this keeps up, is amazing and I am too a bit disgusted.

Of course, all of this is my opinion and just that. There is always the chance (although it's a one in a trillion chance in my opinion) that he is just that good and has the best birds in the world. But why go anywhere else and pay thousands for birds which are not nearly as good as the ones he will sell you for a pittance!
Is he that good?


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## Alamo

DERF....I`m going to ask a question to you,and I don`t want to offend you,or any of your club members....The question....

ARE THERE ANY MEMBERS IN YOUR CLUB,THAT THIS GUY IS BEATING EVERY WEEK,THAT HAS EVER WON ANY ALL-AMERICAN AWARDS,OR AU OR IF AWARDS,OR,THE RACING PIGEON DIGEST AWARDS ????? or WHATEVER Awards for HOF PIGEONS etc ???

Could it be this guy IS that GOOD,and the rest of the club is AVERAGE at best at BREEDING/TRAINING etc ???.........Alamo


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## derf

The man is consistently "beating" several true champions, many of which you would recognize by name and many IF Champion birds. The answer is yes to all of the above.


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## derf

At the risk of being obnoxious, I will say it again,and yes I realize what this sounds like that we have a bunch of amateurs and you finally get a fairly good flyer in there and he's kicking our butts. But, I assure you that our club member list is very impressive and I'm pretty sure you know several of the members. This is one of the oldest ongoing IF clubs in the country and several of our members can fly with anyone, and have, bar none (as long as it's a legitimate race.)
The thing that is the tip off here is that this guy is clocking almost every bird he sends in every race, and they all are on the very top of the sheet. And these birds are so good, that he will sell them to anyone for a fraction of what he could ask!!!!
I was looking last week. at the report on the old bird champion bird for the club. 
If my memory serves me right, he had the top 20 champions and no one else was close.
That good?
Really?


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## First To Hatch

Derf, he didn't have the top 20, but had a big number. The thing is one week he sends 25 birds gets 1-16th, next week a different 25 birds, 1-18th? lol Really you have 40 great pigeons? People keep saying he is a great handler, ok he is its possible with 5 birds, I need to keep saying this it is impossible to genetically get that many great birds.


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## Crazy Pete

it is not unusual to go to a local auction and see him selling these very "champions" for $20 a piece out of his car!

If he is selling champion birds for that price buy them and beat him at his own game.
Dave


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## Lovelace

I have one for you all, This guy in our club here in the US has a great blood line one of his birds beat all the birds in the US this year, most times in our club races he would have 5 to 10 birds on the drop, but he does not win every race, and I don't care who you are, there is no one I mean no one that can win that many races, not all birds breed that good of birds, theres only a hand full that will bred good. I would check things out


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## derf

Crazy Pete said:


> it is not unusual to go to a local auction and see him selling these very "champions" for $20 a piece out of his car!
> 
> If he is selling champion birds for that price buy them and beat him at his own game.
> Dave


Dave,
I don't think he will sell me his timer!

I don't think you're getting it. The birds are Champions on paper only. If you or I are buying them, there's a good chance you won't get one good out of the lot.
This man is cheating somehow in my opinion. I don't yet have all of the details, but I will prove him to be what I think he is and that is not a Champion!

derf


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## M Kurps

Derf, I think you should be looking into what happens to the birds between the crating at the club to the release. Have a trusted person accompany the birds the whole way and have someone at his loft on arrival, simple. You only need to delay a race 2 hours instead of a day if you wanted to go that root. Go simple first, before trying to figure out if the clock is being messed with. I have seen where you could order personalized bands, maybe he is doing that, but i don't own an electronic clock so i couldn't understand how he could be using 2 chips as the same #. Last idea is have a race with the old wind clocks. But try simple first. Good luck.
Kurps


Added; As Conditionfreak stated about the crate seals i wholeheartedly agree, I cannot stand the zip ties, the seals were made for clocks and shipping crates and why that has changed i do not understand.


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## Dunn

is there any other clubs or combines close to you all to that you can ask to join in some races this will give more competition for you both and will see there with other pigeon racers if he is a real competitor but i will prob say he is my suggestion is get more people involed in your combine races make it harder mor competion i am new and have never raced yet but i have 18 birds and my first training toss in sunday so i might just be throwing my 2 cents in and not knowing what i am talking about but you should think hard on how to handle this hope you can do it with dignity


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## Crazy Pete

On the off chance that his birds are that good I would buy a pair. In the mean time you should call the pigeon supply houses and see witch one will test birds for performance enhansing drugs. You should check out all factors befor you accuse him of cheating.
Dave


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## Barry T

Could you try a trail cam it has time stamp on photo or video


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## ejb3810

Here is an idea. When the man comes to enter his birds in the race, in addition to scanning the electronic chip place a rubber race band on the other foot. Tell him that the race committee will be at his loft so that when his birds come in they will be checked for time scanned by his clock and to see that the rubber race band is also there.
He may get upset and not race. That will tell a story. His birds may not do well. That will tell a story. His birds may come in a flock with proper time scanned by clock and proper rubber race band. That will tell a story.
I would not mince any words with the guy. Simply state that since his race results are quite unbelievable that an independent verification is in order, and if it were your birds and your results you would have no problem with this independent verification at your loft.


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## FrequentFlierMiles

Listen this is a sport just like any other sport!!
A champion is made it is all about having a good coach and having an athlete who loves what he does to win medals!!!

Than there are others who cheat and I am sure coaches low they cheat just in the pigeon sport there are fliers who cheat and may inject substances that will inhance the birds flying abilties to fly faster and longer!!! 

People can't get jealous of people winning always you can't just acuse people of cheating just because they always win try to learn how they train look at the conditions there birds are in how there loft is treated I'm sure this all goes to account I know there are people who get jealous or wonder how the heck this guy keeps beating me just know champions are made with sacrifice and hard work 

Have you seen the Olympics teenagers are winning events breaking records and are accused of using drugs when they where not tested positive for drugs they work since little many years of dedication. 
So you should look at this guys records did he win right on the first year he started racing pigeons?

people this sport like any sport will go down hill once people start cheating, start to play the game and don't go by the rules so just approach the guy and learn from him how he does it if he is that good than why don't you invest in his loft?!!


If I had money i would ask the flier listen why don't you fly te big money races go international do the one million dollar race start entering big shot races if he says no that I would approach him and say I will help you with the costs I will even pay 100% of costs and get 40% of the winning prize than take a look how his birds will make the sheets


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## ejb3810

If my results were as described in these posts, then I would love the opportunity to prove that it is all on the up and up. To win so much and so frequently that some would suspect you of trickery is a compliment, if you are playing within the rules.


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## Kal-El

Has the subject of loft location ever come up? It would be wise to include the relative positions of the loft in the aforementioned thread topic. Most would say, "Oh, loft position doesn't matter, it's the birds that do the flying." But to dismiss the thought would be naive or even suspicious.


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## JaxRacingLofts

I read the thread thus far and at first, I thought it was just jealousy that started this but after considering the evidence and probability then I agree a "test" should be implemented. 

My idea is get all the club members to agree through a club vote to a undisclosed release time on an unknown release date..lets say the 150 mile race or 200 mile race. The folks who are not winning shouldn't have a problem with their birds going up maybe 1 1/2 -2 1/2 hours after sunrise nobody but the transporter and the race secretary should know the exact release time. 

If your buddy still owns the top of the race sheets you should shake his hand and apologize...now if he doesn't get the consistent 18 birds on the drop all clocking within fractions of a second of each other then investigate further. 

David Clausing was kicked out of his club for outstanding results and later won the Sun City Million Dollar Race..so anything is possible... best not to offend without certainty.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

derf said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to this forum and am hoping for some information. I have been racing pigeons for over 30 years and have had a fair amount of success.
> Something that has happened in our club recently has made me seriously consider dropping out of the sport.
> Over the years, I have encountered many great flyers who I considered a true champion, but right now, in our club, we have a "gentleman" which goes way beyond winning out of turn.
> This individual will not only win every club and money race in the area, but he will always have 18 to25 birds on a drop for club races and almost as many as he sent on a drop for money races. We are talking every race here with very few exceptions.
> The club officers have thought the obvious, that the individual was using drugs to stimulate his birds, but I maintain that his results are too consistent for drugs. He continues to get several birds on the first drop.
> This gentleman has ties to Europe and I believe that he is somehow manipulating the electronic timer. People have been at his house when he has clocked the alleged winner, but no one can be certain that the birds he clocked are those that he sent other than the fact that they have the same band number.
> I believe that he has duplicate bands and chip bands somehow and is able to clock at will.
> 
> *My question for this forum is this: Is it possible to cheat with a modern electronic timer.* I am not asking how to cheat, because I don't want the technical details, but are there instances, especially in Europe, where people have figured out how to manipulate these timers?
> 
> I am hoping that someone can shed some light on this because this individual is single-handedly destroying a club which has been in exsistance for a very long time.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> derf


 The answer is yes, it is possible to cheat with an electronic clock. That is why various polices must also be in place, as an example the fancier is not to handle his own birds on shipping night, etc. Also the reason why the next generation chip band will be required for 2013, because someone did figure out how to cheat with the old chip bands.

The problem I have, is without some indication other then good results, I would really hesitate to claim that someone else must be cheating, just because I can't beat him. I didn't read every post on this thread, but the obvious things such as actual GPS reading's should be double checked, procedures should be looked at, and make sure all the obvious things are looked at. 

There was a case where a guy was winning a lot out of turn, and it turned out his wife got him busted. Someone from the club called him and his wife said "oh he is at the other loft"...well turned out he had two lofts, one much closer to the release site !  You can always do what some clubs have done...just kick the winner out of the club.  Not my thinking, but I bet the losers will mostly go along.


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## NZ Pigeon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The answer is yes, it is possible to cheat with an electronic clock. That is why various polices must also be in place, as an example the fancier is not to handle his own birds on shipping night, etc. Also the reason why the next generation chip band will be required for 2013, because someone did figure out how to cheat with the old chip bands.
> 
> The problem I have, is without some indication other then good results, I would really hesitate to claim that someone else must be cheating, just because I can't beat him. I didn't read every post on this thread, but the obvious things such as actual GPS reading's should be double checked, procedures should be looked at, and make sure all the obvious things are looked at.
> 
> There was a case where a guy was winning a lot out of turn, and it turned out his wife got him busted. Someone from the club called him and his wife said "oh he is at the other loft"...well turned out he had two lofts, one much closer to the release site ! * You can always do what some clubs have done...just kick the winner out of the club*.  Not my thinking, but I bet the losers will mostly go along.


Or get better I suppose but I am sure thats your way of thinking aye Warren.


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## Hareloft

If you talk to him about his feeding and training I am willing to bet my right arm the he is doing everything right and has superior birds with better than average homing ability


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## boneyrajan.k

Personally i will suggest not to defame or put the tag of cheater.....Without any proofs,if nobody is able to beat him means,others need to notch up their game


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## SmithFamilyLoft

NZ Pigeon said:


> Or get better I suppose but I am sure thats your way of thinking aye Warren.


 My problem is, every time someone wins out of turn, there are those who want to jump to the conclusion that the winning fancier must be cheating. Now, maybe in this particular case he is. But, how many times has someone been called a "cheater" simply because he pays attention to details, has better birds, and better management ? Just too many times I suspect, an innocent fancier is said to be cheating, when in fact, he is simply a better fancier. And others, rather then change what they are doing, simply do what they always do, but expect different results. 

In this particular case, it would be so easy to figure out the truth. Simply arrange to have a few witnesses at the loft on race day and watch this guy's pile of bird's show up and clock a half hour before everyone else. Maybe, just maybe, the fancier might share a few "secrets" to his good management. If the guy get's 20 bird's on the drop, and win's just like he always does, then one can jump to the conclusion that he then must be using "drugs", or else perhaps conclude, the guy just is more on top of his game.


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## derf

I think that most of you are missing the point. I have been flying for 32 years and have been beaten by some of the best flyers in America and I also have beaten them. I always congratulated the winner and moved on.
This gentleman is not just beating everyone in the club, but he is doing it with THE MAJORITY OF THE BIRDS he sends to the race, including rather large money races with a race front of over 100 miles. Not only does this man win, but he clocks almost every pigeon he sends ALWAYS. And he always clocks them well before anyone else.

REALLY!

derf


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## Hareloft

We had a person in one of the clubs that was doing the same. Winning 98% of all races with 1 or more birds on the drop. He purchased many good birds his birds ate better than most of us they were trained 2 times a day every day not just the good days, and the good days in the winter they were trained. His birds never lost form they always felt like a million dollars in the hand. It didn't matter if you handled them in January or July. He just got out this year because every one was *****ing about him winning and he said piss on it. He had 2 freezers with his peanuts, Hemp, saflower and other high dollar feeds. This way they never got sour or sat with the regular feed if you call it that when he feeds super crack and is $30 a bag this is his base. He had a cabinet with probably a $1000 of meds and conditioners. He kept all his vitamins and electrolites in a fridge just for that purpose. My point is if you have the time, patients, will and yes Warren Money winning every and all races is possible. If you check his GPS he is probably right in line with the flock from the race staions to the majority of flyers, this alone will affect winning. So please don't call anyone a cheater because they win. Large drops are possible not for me but I have seen it many times on race days 10 or 20 in a drop at other peoples lofts.


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## BetaPigeon

just a comment on loft location, nothing to do with cheating, directly. In today's world with Google maps, you can get the cordniates from the club sectary and zero right in on your loft. If your loft has been there for the last ten years , you will actually see the loft.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

derf said:


> I think that most of you are missing the point. I have been flying for 32 years and have been beaten by some of the best flyers in America and I also have beaten them. I always congratulated the winner and moved on.
> This gentleman is not just beating everyone in the club, but he is doing it with THE MAJORITY OF THE BIRDS he sends to the race, including rather large money races with a race front of over 100 miles. Not only does this man win, but he clocks almost every pigeon he sends ALWAYS. And he always clocks them well before anyone else.
> 
> REALLY!
> 
> derf


 As the race secretary, if there was an indication that something was not right, then by my way of thinking, it would be fairly simple to verify the results. I would simply make arrangements to "audit" his race results. Pretty simple to be sitting in his back yard on race day. 

When the 20 birds fly in on the drop, a half an hour before everyone else, then it will be obvious he simply has faster birds. If on the other hand, he can never duplicate his great results when I am there to audit, then that will indicate that perhaps the previous race results were tampered with. 

So, if the race committee of your club thinks the results are so good as to require an audit, then do so. If the race committee ends up in this guy's back yard, and witnesses this fancier and his 20 bird drops, then perhaps the issue can be put to rest. If it is handled correctly, maybe he will even provide some lessons to the rest of the club members....or maybe not.


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## derf

*Extraordinary results in Pigeon Racing*

If you notice, I have changed the title of this message because listening to all of the comments from so many of you have me thinking that perhaps you are right and this man just is that good. In fact, based on all of the results over the past couple of years, he just might be the best in the country, maybe even the world!
Here are the facts as I know them:
He typically raises more young birds than any other flyer in the club and routinely sends the limit of 25 birds to each race, even an "A" and "B" Race in the same day.

I have seen him put the limit in two races and also put over 50 birds in the "training" section of the truck in the same shipping night.

On a typical race, even a smash, he will clock the majority of his entry before anyone gets a bird. He usually does this about five minutes ahead of anyone else on a club race. In a "Money" race, he typically clocks 1/2 to 3/4 hour ahead of the competition.

Of course our club officers haven't been sitting on their hands the whole time.
His birds have been tested for drugs on 2 different occasions. The first time, the lab found a foreign material in the blood but could not identify it.The second time they found antihistamines, but being an IF club, flying under IF rules, we could not do anything about that. (sic)

Our club secretary did witness birds coming to his loft during a race, coincidentally a race which he did not win.

A new flyer last young bird series consistently beat his pool bird almost every week.

He will not enter one-loft races or send his birds to any auctions.

In our club auction, he will not usually bring any birds but will buy almost every band which goes up for sale, typically spending many times more than he can win.

After the race season, in past years he has sold the very birds that were at the top of the race sheet (CHAMPIONS!) for $20 at the end of the season.

The man has direct ties to Europe. In fact his English his so bad, I for one cannot understand a word he says. 

He gets great pleasure each week in sending the race results showing his name in the top 18 or more places to his friends in his native country.

He has virtually no losses, in fact his friend was boasting that in the last OB Series, he started with 50 and ended the season with the same 50. What an outstanding feat considering that series had 2-300s, 2-400s a 500 and a 600 all which he participated in with many birds, AND I would put the severity of this race course up against any in the country as at least one of the toughest.

So, when you put all of these amazing facts together, this man is truly the best pigeon flyer in the world. I'll bet that he can consistently beat anyone that is reading this right now!

Many of you are correct- He is just that good!


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## A_Smith

I could use a kit from that guy everyone is typin' about. I have tuff compitition in my combine


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## Daddycausingchaos

I don't raise racers but this is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read.


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## Granny Smith

derf said:


> Our club secretary did witness birds coming to his loft during a race, coincidentally a race which he did not win


Well, out of all of your facts, here's the silver bullet. If he cannot win with witnesses, he's cheating. Plain and simple. Have the next 4 to 6 races witnessed and see what happens


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## Revolution Lofts

The only cheating I've ever heard of is having a A loft and a B loft. The A loft being shown as the only loft, while the birds are actually trained to fly to the B loft, which is in the line of travel of the release points and much closer to the release points than loft A. The birds fly a very short distance compared to the other birds, and are then driven to loft A, and shown as the winners.


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## Alamo

With all that has been written here by DERF,the one thing that bothers me the most is,"He Sells ALL his winners etc for $20.00".....Now,if I have a pigeon,or 2 or 3 birds that good,they are going on my OB race team...This guy races OB`s also...So, are you sure he really is selling his best birds,instead of putting them on the OB team ????...If he raises 100+ YB`s every year,he can only keep maybe the best 10/12 birds,and the rest have to go,nomatter how good they are.....Does he sell some OB`s also for $20 ???....Alamo


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## Crazy Pete

It will not do any good to buy his birds unless he will give you his feeding and training regime. Rotondo said it best, The best trainer can take average birds and win, and an average trainer can have the best birds in the world and do average.
Dave


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## Alamo

DERF.....Have they tested any of his birds for Steriods ?? I have heard that a few flyers on the east coast have been caught with(winning pigeons) doing this.....Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Alamo said:


> DERF.....Have they tested any of his birds for Steriods ?? I have heard that a few flyers on the east coast have been caught with(winning pigeons) doing this.....Alamo


Gee..where do you buy steroids, which will cause you to get 20 birds on the drop, and way ahead of everyone else ???


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Good local flyer - Just can't be beat - locally that is*



derf said:


> If you notice, I have changed the title of this message because listening to all of the comments from so many of you have me thinking that perhaps you are right and this man just is that good. In fact, based on all of the results over the past couple of years, he just might be the best in the country, maybe even the world!
> Here are the facts as I know them:
> *He typically raises more young birds than any other flyer in the club and routinely sends the limit of 25 birds to each race, even an "A" and "B" Race in the same day.*
> 
> *I have seen him put the limit in two races and also put over 50 birds in the "training" section of the truck in the same shipping night.*
> 
> On a typical race, even a smash, he will clock the majority of his entry before anyone gets a bird. He usually does this about five minutes ahead of anyone else on a club race. In a "Money" race, he typically clocks 1/2 to 3/4 hour ahead of the competition.
> 
> Of course our club officers haven't been sitting on their hands the whole time.
> *His birds have been tested for drugs on 2 different occasions. *The first time, the lab found a foreign material in the blood but could not identify it.The second time they found antihistamines, but being an IF club, flying under IF rules, we could not do anything about that. (sic)
> 
> *Our club secretary did witness birds coming to his loft *during a race, coincidentally a race which he did not win.
> 
> A new flyer last young bird series consistently beat his pool bird almost every week.
> 
> He will not enter one-loft races or send his birds to any auctions.
> 
> In our club auction, he will not usually bring any birds *but will buy almost every band which goes up for sale, typically spending many times more than he can win.*
> 
> After the race season, in past years he has sold the very birds that were at the top of the race sheet (CHAMPIONS!) for $20 at the end of the season.
> 
> The man has direct ties to Europe. In fact his English his so bad, I for one cannot understand a word he says.
> 
> *He gets great pleasure each week in sending the race results showing his name in the top 18 or more places to his friends in his native country.*
> 
> He has virtually no losses, in fact his friend was boasting that in the last OB Series, he started with 50 and ended the season with the same 50. What an outstanding feat considering that series had 2-300s, 2-400s a 500 and a 600 all which he participated in with many birds, AND I would put the severity of this race course up against any in the country as at least one of the toughest.
> 
> So, when you put all of these amazing facts together, this man is truly the best pigeon flyer in the world. *I'll bet that he can consistently beat anyone *that is reading this right now!
> 
> Many of you are correct- He is just that good!


 He sounds like a any number of the pro's we have in the United Pigeon Combine. May not be that he is the best in the world, could just be that in your combine there is really no competition. Like many serious fliers, he trains hard, breeds a lot of YB's, and sends his limit to every race. The fact that combine members only pay $20 for his winning bird's indicate they haven't put out a whole lot of funds for improving their stock. And thus, I suspect he might just be a serious competitor, and the local competition is just not up to the challenge. The fact that there have already been witnesses at his loft, and drug testing, tells me everyone at your combine is looking for "cheating" but as of yet, have got nothing. Except maybe an exceptional pigeon fancier for your area. I don't think he would measure up to many of our readers, but it is apparent, that in your club anyway, he can't be beat.


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## mikeyg

Plus, and here is the impossible part, his friend was boasting that he started the old bird season with 50 and ended with the same 50. Now this man was in every race including 2-300's, 2- 400s a 500 and a 600 and didn't lose 1 bird! Is there a Flyer in the world that can make that statement? This goes beyond the realm of possibility!

Here is my question. And all other things aside that everyone in this thread has been talking about, clocks, steroids, loft A and B, all of that.

Is there any flyer in this forum or anywhere for that matter who can say that they started with a scenarion similiar to this with the same results. Has anyone flown that many races without a single loss. Again, every single other thing people have been talking about in here can be manipulated. Clocks, steroids, again Loft A and B.

However the one thing no single human being can control, ever, is Mother Nature, the natural flight of a bird, it's chosen flight path, what the bird is thinking when flying, the weather, predators, humans, and all sorts of other variables that can affect the return of a pigeon to your loft. Unless he is flying his birds through a sterile tunnel from A to B, I do not see how a 0 bird loss is possible with that amount of races and mileage. Honestly, cheating aside, how the heck does he never lose a single bird? My Grandfather who raced pigeons for over 30 years has lost more birds then he could shake a sitck at, and so did every SINGLE other member of his club, and he was very very good, it was his life!

For as long as this thread has been going on I thought I might as well add another mix to the discussion.....


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## ejb3810

As Mikeyg says, how the heck does he never lose a single bird? This is the part that really throws the question into the mix. I wish there is a man alive that can tell me how you send 25 birds to a 500 or 600 and get 20 on the drop ahead of all others every time.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it usually is a duck.


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## Granny Smith

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> He sounds like a any number of the pro's we have in the United Pigeon Combine. May not be that he is the best in the world, could just be that in your combine there is really no competition. Like many serious fliers, he trains hard, breeds a lot of YB's, and sends his limit to every race. The fact that combine members only pay $20 for his winning bird's indicate they haven't put out a whole lot of funds for improving their stock. And thus, I suspect he might just be a serious competitor, and the local competition is just not up to the challenge. *The fact that there have already been witnesses at his loft, *and drug testing, tells me everyone at your combine is looking for "cheating" but as of yet, have got nothing. Except maybe an exceptional pigeon fancier for your area. I don't think he would measure up to many of our readers, but it is apparent, that in your club anyway, he can't be beat.


The time that there was a witness, he did not win. What does that tell you? This is not a complicated problem to solve. If the club in question really wants to put this issue to bed, put witnesses at his loft!


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## derf

mikeyg said:


> Plus, and here is the impossible part, his friend was boasting that he started the old bird season with 50 and ended with the same 50. Now this man was in every race including 2-300's, 2- 400s a 500 and a 600 and didn't lose 1 bird! Is there a Flyer in the world that can make that statement? This goes beyond the realm of possibility!
> 
> Here is my question. And all other things aside that everyone in this thread has been talking about, clocks, steroids, loft A and B, all of that.
> 
> Is there any flyer in this forum or anywhere for that matter who can say that they started with a scenarion similiar to this with the same results. Has anyone flown that many races without a single loss. Again, every single other thing people have been talking about in here can be manipulated. Clocks, steroids, again Loft A and B.
> 
> However the one thing no single human being can control, ever, is Mother Nature, the natural flight of a bird, it's chosen flight path, what the bird is thinking when flying, the weather, predators, humans, and all sorts of other variables that can affect the return of a pigeon to your loft. Unless he is flying his birds through a sterile tunnel from A to B, I do not see how a 0 bird loss is possible with that amount of races and mileage. Honestly, cheating aside, how the heck does he never lose a single bird? My Grandfather who raced pigeons for over 30 years has lost more birds then he could shake a sitck at, and so did every SINGLE other member of his club, and he was very very good, it was his life!
> 
> For as long as this thread has been going on I thought I might as well add another mix to the discussion.....


Finally! Someone gets it! It is impossible! Can't happen legitimately!
derf


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## derf

*Extraordinary results in Pigeon Racing*

OK. Here's the part that I haven't told you throughout this thread. 

Back in 2005, when my Father died, my heart was no longer in the sport. Most of my outstanding stock had come from my Dad, and even though he no longer had birds, he was my encouragement and silent partner.
At that time, I just wanted out of the sport and so I offered my birds to anyone in the club. The subject of this thread, at that time, seldom won a race, so when he showed up to get the birds, I gave him the majority of them, over 50 birds, for free, no strings attached. I assure you that there were multiple champions in the mix with Devriendts from Oscar Devriendt and Galaxy Lofts. Jansens from Jim Calia, Sparicino Jansens, Garrentano Bekearts, VanDerLinden Bekearts etc. I never asked for anything in return and I was actually happy to get rid of them so easily. BTW, I gave him full pedigrees on all of the birds.
Well, the following year, my friend started winning including a couple of the largest money races in the area. Every once in a while, a friend of his would call me (as an interpreter) and ask again what a certain bird or two were from and asked for advice on pairing some of them.
When I got back into the sport a couple of years later, I ran into him and asked him how he did with the birds. Even though I heard from his friend that they really "put him on the map" he denied it and said they were all junk and he got rid of them. I never asked for any back nor would I have taken them from him, I was just looking for the truth.

So in answer to a few of the questions that you have had, I know where a lot of his champions came from. And, although these were as good as money can buy, 18 on a drop from 300 miles, 0 losses through an OB season, Taking the top 10 to 20 positions in a race- Absolutely impossible. That would be like hitting the lottery 2 or 3 times in the same season.

derf


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## mikeyg

_Finally! Someone gets it! It is impossible! Can't happen legitimately!
derf_

Yes Derf, I agree, based strickly on the facts you have presented in regards to *NO* lost birds. It is impossible. Again I dont take into consideration the clocks, the steroids he might use, the loft design (air conditioned/heated) or whether he sleeps with his pigeons at night or even stuffs stocking for them on christmas morning, Unless your birds are locked up 24/7 you are going to lose birds sometime or another no matter what!! Period! end of story! 

No bird is completely exempt from cheating death or meeting there maker in whatever fashion it is. And you really don't even need to use the word legitimate because there is no "ligitimate" way to protect your birds while they are 100 miles away, a mile high in the sky and flying 50 miles in hour, way to many variables that no human could ever predict.....But I get what you mean...and Thats my 2 cents, again!


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## Alamo

There was a write up in the Racing Pigeon Digest,not long ago....A new pigeon flyer,in California,won races,best yb(high point) loft in America etc in the AU... I beleive the flying year was 2010...or...2011...Not sure about the year....Anyway,he flew the whole YB series with FOUR YOUNG BIRDS....Four !!! 4 !!!! Just 4 Pigeons....Beat the pants off of the big time flyers etc.....Could you imagine a guy(New flyer) shipping just 2 birds,and beating All American flyers shipping 30 or more birds.....I guess this NEW guy was cheating also !!! Ba Hum Bug !! or maybe.....The BIRDS ARE THAT GOOD !!!!! Alamo


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## mikeyg

I will give you this Alamo. If the person you are talking about never lost 1 of his huge caudre of 4 birds, (sarcasm) then I am truly impressed. that is a feat worth bragging about. I would also think every old timer would ask the question "Boy, how the HELL do you fly 4 birds for an entire season, beat the heck out of us and never lose a bird"?...WOW!!!!!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

derf said:


> Finally! Someone gets it! It is impossible! Can't happen legitimately!
> derf


 Ok, I get it, you are convinced he is cheating. But, you have no evidence other then there was one witness at his loft on one race, and he apparently did not win that particular race. So....now what ? 

Maybe you are correct, maybe he is cheating, but somehow he is smarter then the officers of your club and combine, and no evidence other then good results can be found. But, if you are all convinced, then why don't you just kick him out of your club ? Do what some clubs have done, simply write in boundaries and write this winners loft out of accepted area. 

Locally, Fred Smeltzer of "720" fame, won so many races, they all were saying behind his back that he was "cheating". After awhile, rather then put up with the BS I suppose, he simply retired from racing, and everyone was "happy" again. Which is why I personally shy away from calling a fancier a "Cheater" without the evidence and facts in hand. A fancier who may embellish numbers of birds lost, etc. is not evidence of any cheating in my mind, but that is me. 

Good birds, good training, good management.....have all three of them, and good results will follow.


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## Lovelace

I can say this much, about the guy that flew just 4 birds all season Alamo I beleave he race them the hold season, Because I have a pair in my loft, that I bred 4 of there offspring that flew the hold young bird season 2011 and one hen was my best bird 
she ended 26 in the state of Louisiana, so yes I beleave a person can fly the hold season with 4 birds, now as for having 50 and end the season with 50 is hard for me to beleave, because one does not have that many good pairs, even the best birds get lost sometimes.


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## Pigeonfriends

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Gee..where do you buy steroids, which will cause you to get 20 birds on the drop, and way ahead of everyone else ???


you buy steroids from Vets or you can get a prescription if your a farmer, Once you have a live stock license getting steroids isn't hard.

I know a guy who used horse steroids on himself and his birds, its been proven to be extremely affective for training cardio.

He was extremely beastly, 5 foot 11 and competeing in triathalons at 211lbs of lean muscle.

he told me that if you got friends who owns a Vet clinic getting steroids from them is better then buying it from a sketchy stranger. horse steroids increase blood production so it was perfect for birds, and it was perfect for the sport he competed in.

Plenty of people who are in Vet practice are willing to sell steroids, their not earning as much money because of the bad economy, and apparently people at one point figured out that steroids is steroids doesn't matter if it's used on animals, because it will work on humans

animal steroids are just not FDA approved.

Weird thing is, it's usually the rich upper class who take steroids due to the fact that you need money to persuade these people.

The steroids really messes up the birds as the bird will only be good for one season, and also cause fertility problems.


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## Dunn

i say he has great birds and is training them harder then anyone else but if you feel you need to prove this situation then invite your other clubs and other combines for a big race and see what happens only time you will see me post in this thread sorry


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Pigeonfriends said:


> you buy steroids from Vets or you can get a prescription if your a farmer, Once you have a live stock license getting steroids isn't hard.
> 
> I know a guy who used horse steroids on himself and his birds, its been proven to be extremely affective for training cardio.
> 
> He was extremely beastly, 5 foot 11 and competeing in triathalons at 211lbs of lean muscle.
> 
> he told me that if you got friends who owns a Vet clinic getting steroids from them is better then buying it from a sketchy stranger. horse steroids increase blood production so it was perfect for birds, and it was perfect for the sport he competed in.
> 
> Plenty of people who are in Vet practice are willing to sell steroids, their not earning as much money because of the bad economy, and apparently people at one point figured out that steroids is steroids doesn't matter if it's used on animals, because it will work on humans
> 
> animal steroids are just not FDA approved.
> 
> Weird thing is, it's usually the rich upper class who take steroids due to the fact that you need money to persuade these people.
> 
> *The steroids really messes up the birds as the bird will only be good for one season, and also cause fertility problems.*


Exactly ! My tongue in cheek question, was not really about where or how they are obtained, it is I don't think they will help a homing pigeon fly home faster. 

If you were a human weight lifter/body builder....yeah I could see how it could build muscle. But, I don't see how muscle mass will translate into say a fast 350 mile race winner. I can imagine how it will destroy the health of your birds, and get you kicked out of pigeon racing.

Sure hope our sport does not turn into who has the best designer drugs to enhance performance. That is the whole purpose in disqualifying people who cheat this way. So, even if one develops a "magic pill" to win races, what has been proven ? Nothing.


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## Pigeon0446

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Sure hope our sport does not turn into who has the best designer drugs to enhance performance. That is the whole purpose in disqualifying people who cheat this way. So, even if one develops a "magic pill" to win races, what has been proven ? Nothing.


Thats why the combine I'm in, the over 160 loft strong, Long Island Combine has put in drug testign from what I've been told testing was done and there were drugs found in many of the samples. So now they are gonna be testing and if you are found to be using you face stiff penalties.


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## Pigeonfriends

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Exactly ! My tongue in cheek question, was not really about where or how they are obtained, it is I don't think they will help a homing pigeon fly home faster.
> 
> If you were a human weight lifter/body builder....yeah I could see how it could build muscle. But, I don't see how muscle mass will translate into say a fast 350 mile race winner. I can imagine how it will destroy the health of your birds, and get you kicked out of pigeon racing.
> 
> Sure hope our sport does not turn into who has the best designer drugs to enhance performance. That is the whole purpose in disqualifying people who cheat this way. So, even if one develops a "magic pill" to win races, what has been proven ? Nothing.


Stanozolol is usually considered a safer choice for female bodybuilders in that its anabolic effects predominate over its androgenic effects, although virilization and masculinization are still very common even at low doses.[citation needed]

Stanozolol has been used in both animal and human patients for a number of conditions. In humans, it has been demonstrated to be successful in treating anaemia and hereditary angioedema. Veterinarians may prescribe the drug to improve muscle growth, red blood cell production, increase bone density and stimulate the appetite of debilitated or weakened animals.

Stanozolol is one of the anabolic steroids commonly used as a performance enhancing drug and is banned from use in sports competition under the auspices of the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) and many other sporting bodies. Additionally, stanozolol has been used in US horse racing.[1]


In this article it's said that it's effective for treating anemia, and production of blood cell which means that the Cardiovascular health of the animal is that of a god pigeon not just a normal pigeon, it would be a walk in the park.

Even the most intelligent pigeon out there would be brain dead after a long distance race, It's like a human suffering from runners high after a long marathon and once that high goes away the splitting headache comes in from realizing your at your limit. With steroids the pigeon would probably not even feel it.

But i like my birds their like friends to me, so i wouldn't use it, but some people would even use it on themselves so the morals are different.


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## Pigeon0446

Lovelace said:


> I can say this much, about the guy that flew just 4 birds all season Alamo I beleave he race them the hold season, Because I have a pair in my loft, that I bred 4 of there offspring that flew the hold young bird season 2011 and one hen was my best bird
> she ended 26 in the state of Louisiana, so yes I beleave a person can fly the hold season with 4 birds, now as for having 50 and end the season with 50 is hard for me to beleave, because one does not have that many good pairs, even the best birds get lost sometimes.


I also had a small team of birds last year. I had 11 birds fly the whole season 4 of them ended up in the top 7 of the IF Hall of Fame including the winner. She was one of 2 birds that flew an extra race during the season when they flew a 300 and a 250 in one weekend coming in the top 6 in both of those races. So she flew 11 races in 10 weekends and never tired out. She didn't win any races but she had two 2nds and 5 other top 9 finishes.


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## Lovelace

Thats great congratulation, I love it when us small team flyers beats the mob flyers. Makes things that much better.


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