# New Arrival - Hematoma



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We got this little guy in this morning. Someone found him at a shopping mall, scooped him up and rode the bus downtown where they apparently got in touch with Animal Control who took him to the After Hours Clinic. They "checked" him over and could find no problem other than a small scratch on top of his head. Lewis called me on the way home with him and said he was breathing open mouthed - not ever good as we all know.

When we examined him, we found a pretty large hematoma under his right wing. Today is the one day we could not make it to the vet so all we're able to do right now is keep him comfortable. He is a firecracker, constantly moving, and talking. He is pooping and we fed him about 12 cc when he came home. I had already given him .14 Baytril and .42 Nystatin before we saw the swelling and I think we'll keep that up.

This is the hematoma. You can see his little face in the lower right.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is it real spongy or real high pressure?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, I would say high pressure. It is pretty taut to the touch with just a little give to the touch.

Folks, I also want to mention that I PM'd Pidgey earlier to see if we should go ahead and prick this with a sterile needle to drain some of the fluids. He advised against it for right now - that one of the reasons he is in respiratory distress is because he may currently be anemic due to the circulatory blood loss.....then draining all that out before the leak is sealed could simply cause him to drain even more out and finish him off....

I have drained many air sac bubbles but they are always clear and this is not. We had another baby pigeon several years ago with a hematoma larger than this baby's only on the rump. The vet at the clinic wanted to put her down but we held out and the hematoma went away on its own. Sure hope this happens with this one.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, the body can reabsorb the blood and this one would certainly need to, if possible. Can you post a respiration count?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ha, that was not the easiest thing to do but I counted 43. In between, he was cheeping and yawning. What is normal?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Frankly don't know on a youngster, never counted. If you've got one, go check it out. For an adult at rest, 30. Is he still breathing open beaked?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Yes, but not all the time. I'll just observe him for a while. I found this interesting link awhile ago when I was searching for more information. It could come in handy if any one ever needs to do CPR on one of their birds.

http://www.wingwise.com/cpr.htm


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Oh, that poor baby. I'm sitting here reading all that's going on today on the forum and I SWEAR, I don't know how you folks do this. All I'm doing is reading and looking at one picture and I'm in tears. My hat is off to all of you. Thank god there are people who care AND know what to do about all these horrific situations..................


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You once played nurse to Dear Doctor Hubby while he sewed a crop up! You're an 'old hand' at it, by now...

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Hematoma*

Perhaps of interest. Mentions hematoma in wing vein:

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00344.htm 



> Practical Lab Session - Avian Practical Lab
> 
> Teresa L. Lightfoot D.V.M., Diplomate ABVP - Avian
> 
> ...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Maggie,

That really does look bad, but hopefully it looks worse then it REALLY is, plus the bird is in good hands.

I just wanted to thank you for letting us know about the behind the scenes discussions/actions taken, it makes it easier for everyone to be able to follow up and add crucial advice in timely fashion. Once a health issue is made public it should remain that way, as everyone who shares has a right to know. I encourage everyone on the forum to please do the same and follow up with any conversations done with members by phone or PM's. It is of utmost importance, especially in emergency situations. It can be tedious and hectic to do at times, and we certainly don't expect a follow up right away when dealing with an emergency, but all information/actions taken should be shared when time permits.

That being said, please do update us after the vet visit.

Thanks again.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's quite an owie, but I suspect it will clear up well. I'm glad this little one found his way to you, Maggie.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie, 



Babys breath a lot faster than Adults...and Peepeers & Squeakers are in-between...

"45" breaths per minute sounds normal-enough to me for a Peeper.


Now, would cool gentle compresses, or warm ones, be something to do for this?


I do not know!


But I would think to 'up' his Vitamine C and also other forms of Antioxidants...this can help with strengthining Cappilaries and related vessels...


Good luck!


A little cutie..


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

He is still holding his own. A regular wiggle worm if I ever saw one. All he wants to do is get to you to hold him and will run like crazy to us. We fed him about 15 cc a few minutes ago and put him to bed for the night and I just hope and pray he is still with us in the morning.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's tough sleeping that way but I'm sure he'd prefer it if you'd lay down with him in a towel nest right beside you with your hand over him... all night...

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I'm shipping him to Phil for that.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Best of luck with this little guy, Maggie! And thanks for the CPR link. I didn't even know there was such a thing, though I've heard of firefighters doing CPR on dogs.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> It's tough sleeping that way but I'm sure he'd prefer it if you'd lay down with him in a towel nest right beside you with your hand over him... all night...
> 
> Pidgey



Yes, they do like that...


Good for their morallle, too...especially if they had been through some difficult or injurious adventures...

This time of year, a soft rumpled Towell which has been lightly yet thoroughly wetted, makes a very nice 'cool' Nest...all the better if a slight breeze...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I'm shipping him to Phil for that.



Oh!


Lol...


Fine with me..!


But you can do it...it is easy...they stay put...and you learn to be aware of them while you are sleeping, just-like-a-mother or father would.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I'm shipping him to Phil for that.


JUST what I was going to say! Phil is a PRO!!  Few can sleep for hours with a bird in a "hand nest!" 

Wishing ALL THE BEST WITH LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES, Maggie and Lewis!

Shi & Squeaks


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Just a quick update. He is still ok, hematoma may be going down a little but I am concerned about a gurgling noise he is making. I think I forgot to mention that in my first post because I got concerned when we found the hematoma and the sound is the reason we started him on Baytril in the first place. He is still very active, still breathing through the mouth but is pooping like everything! He is such a good baby - he leaves his towel bed and goes to the other end to poop. This is a really sweet one.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Now, that is disturbing. When I looked at the picture, I had wondered that it looked like a cross between a hematoma and an embolism (air bubble under the skin). A real hematoma would look almost completely blue-black and that may but it's hard to tell in the picture due to the glare of the flash.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie, 


Well, if he is enjoying to eat, is active, goes out of his way to poop off of the end of the 'Nest' and is pooping plenty...


These are very very good things to hear!



Gurgleing...I don't know what to think.


But if from some internal injury ( gurleing which is in his breathing? Or just gurgling, independant of Breathing? ) it may well heal up and slowly go away and whatever fluids were responsible could be re-absorbed over time...


Fingers crossed...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

New picture tonight at feeding time.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sure is a cute little guy..............I miss having babies around........


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Lady Tarheel said:


> New picture tonight at feeding time.


Oh, Gosh! It's another Happy Dancer!  

Terry


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

What a cute little guy. I sure hope he pulls through.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie,


Well that is one vigorous and happy little 'Peeper'..!


I do not think anything is going to get in his way..!


Is the 'gurgleing' then something we can associate with an in pending healing of an Air Sac rupture?


He does not look like a 'Peeper' who has respiratory compromise from a pnuemonia...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks everyone. He is his usual happy, energetic self this morning. The "gurgling" now seems to be a "popping" sound that I can hear 2 feet away from him. Lewis seems to think it is because he gets so excited over being fed but right now I just don't know. The hematoma seems to be decreasing a little each day.

All I can say about this little guy is that he doesn't stay still for a minute when we have him out and we have to watch him like a hawk to keep him from running off the counter. He is something else.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

How *ADORABLE* is that little one, Maggie.  

Glad to hear things are going in a positive direction.  

Cindy


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

YEA FOR *HAPPY FEET,* MAGGIE! 

(The Happy Dancer name has already been taken. And besides, you DID say he "runs" alot!)  

Sounding REALLY good...

Sending LOVE and HUGS and SCRITCHES....BIG TIME FOR THIS LITTLE ONE!  

Shi & Squeaks


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Glad to hear he is on the mend. He is a cutie.

Margarret


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2007)

Maggie,

When I saw your thread, I was pretty sure your bird had a ruptured air sac with the complication of bleeding. That gurgling sound was a big clue and when there is fluid in the lungs, aspiration pneumonia is sure to follow. The question to medicate is for me, not a problem. I would treat with a tetracycline. 

However, I don't know if one is supposed to prick the skin and expel air when there is blood in the lungs. Unless it has all clotted and there is no danger of further bleeding, I wouldn't touch it but we don't know that. Is it possible for a clot to break off and go to the heart? I don't know. Frankly, this is one problem that would have to be discussed with a vet. This is not a simple situation


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Fred

She is still doing very well - a regular rebel rouser - and growing more every day. However, I am taking her to the vet tomorrow because the bubble is still there though not as large and is more "squishy" to the touch. The gurgling is not there all the time but instead she sometimes makes a popping noise when she is on the counter to be fed. We are still giving her Baytril and Nystatin. Have had to adjust the dosage because she's growing so fast!

Her feathers are coming in nicely and she's going to be a lovely blue bar.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie,




Glad to hear all goes well...


I suppose the gurgleing and poppings could be from a ruptured Air Sac whose leaking is effecting surrounding organs or tissues.

He sure looks great in the last image...

Post some more images..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, that's what is beginning to worry me. I'll let everyone know something as soon as the vet sees him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie, 



Seems to me that say two weeks or so or more even is what it can take for a badly ruptured Air Sac to mend...sometimes sooner of course if a lesser rupture had occurred, but a bad rupture, would take longer than a minor rupture I expect...


Has anyone ever had one which did not mend? Or which required a Surgical procedure to mend it, I wonder?


Good luck...!

Oye, I let the morning's formula get too cool and now I have to rewarm it.


All these hungry Beaks wondering "What the heck IS it with this guy anyway??? What is taking him so LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG??? PEEEEEP!!!!!"


Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Our baby spent the day at the vet.

He has a ruptured thoracic air sac. Vet drained it and said it will probably fill back up some before the opening finally heals so I'll have to drain it if it does. It is in an unusual area and when I thought I was seeing blood, I was actually seeing a muscle directly behind the bubble causing it not to be clear like the bubbles usually are. The popping is related and I'm to keep him on Baytril and Nystatin for a full 10 days.

He kept them charmed during the day. He has just learned to walk upright and is toddling all over every where. He really is just the cutest little fella.  


Phil, I have never seen one that didn't go away. Our experience has been that they can go away without any intervention, particularly the smaller ones, but sometimes they have to be drained a few times.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you, Maggie for updating us on the visit to the vet.

I hope the ruptured thoracic air sac heals quickly, and I'm sure he will under the Dr.'s care.

I bet the little guy charmed his way in all their hearts.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie, 



Glad to hear you have gotten an explaintion of what is going on there...and certainly glad to here the little one feels good in spite of the injury.


Well, pretty soon then, we shall be hoping to hear of no more 'gurgleings' and no more 'bubble'..!



Your Vet sounds excellent...and we all got to learn somehting from this one, too...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Treesa and Phil

The bubble is filling again so I'll probably have to drain it again in the morning.

I did want to mention how important it is to weigh your birds every day or so while they're on medication, particularly the squabs/fledglings. They have rapid weight gains and that means the dose of medicine you gave them two days ago could increase. I have already had to increase Corky's Baytril dose 2 times. He started out with .14 Baytril and is now up to .22 Baytril. Significant difference.

The adults dosage doesn't change that much unless they were severely malnourished and you hand feed them.


Phil, forgot to say my vet is the best in the business. I'm very, very lucky.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That's great news, Maggie. Sounds like he'll make a full recovery. You must be so relieved to know exactly what is going on with him.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Maggie, 

So glad to hear that you found out the source of the popping. And glad to hear that he is doing well and has a good prognosis.

Margarret


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great to have a diagnosis. Seems like this little charmer will be 100% in no time.
Any ideas what cause this?

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, he was found at a large shopping center and I believe he may have fallen from near the top of a building. This center doesn't have any places they can roost but most buildings have these vent "things" (for lack of a better description) that are up really high, near the roofs. They're round and seem to be a favorite place for pigeons to go into and raise babies. We have a museum (not the one we work at) that Lewis watches faithfully because invariably the babies fall out so we bring them home. We also got our recent little brown pigeon at the museum where we volunteer and he had fallen out of one.

Anyhow, this one was so tiny, probably no more than 6-7 days old and must have hit on his right side causing some internal injury to the air sacs. It is a miracle he even survived.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It is a miracle he survived and lucky to be found by you.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Maggie...

Thanks SO much for the update!! I sure wish this little one all the best! You say his name is "Corky?"

He is in GREAT hands and we will look forward to future positive updates!!

With LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES

Shi & Squeaks


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Maggie,

Glad to hear that Corky is doing well. I keep looking at his picture and those little legs.

Feather


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thought I would update Corky's progress. He is doing really well but I have had to deflate two bubbles a couple more times since he was at the vets. The large one under his wing is much smaller but the one on his tummy is being particularly persistent but hopefully it will go away in a few more days. 

I put bird seed in his cage for the first time this morning. I have since had to give him more because the little booger caught on fast and gobbles them down, even after we had just fed him. He has also graduated to a regular cage and seems to enjoy moving around more although the bubble at his leg hinders him some.

He is delightful.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the update. I am glad to hear he is doing so great. I had no doubt he would recover in no time in your care.

Reti


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2007)

Maggie,
I'm glad that Corky is doing well.

I just wanted to add some information about a ruptured air sac. The lungs work in the chest cavity which is a vacuum, completely devoid of air. If there is any air that has entered the chest cavity, the lungs can collapse to one degree or another or completely. This condition is called a pneumothorax. The condition can be so dangerous because a total collapse of the lungs is possible.

If for instance, a dog is hit by a car and suffers broken bones in the legs but there is also bruising to the lungs causing a pneumothorax, the broken bones become secondary to immediately inserting a tube into the chest wall to get the air out and until that condition is eliminated, nothing is done to set the bones. It's that much of an emergency.

When we work on a ruptured air sac, we aren't actually working within the sac and when we remove air, it's clearing it out of the chest cavity, trying to recreate a vacuum and to get the pressure off other organs. We can do it in two ways. The first is to insert a hyperdermic syringe just under the skin and draw the air out. This is time consuming and requires doing it a number of times. 

The second is simpler. Sterilize a needle, disinfect the skin where the needle will go and put it in just under the skin. There is usually no bleeding but if there is, it's a small capillary and can be stopped with just applying a bit of pressure. Going more deeply is dangerous and unnecessary. As soon as the small puncture is made, stretch the opening a little bit and at the same time, press on the air in the chest cavity. The air is expelled very rapidly. This should be done for as long as the chest cavity fills with air. When the air sac closes, there won't be any more air coming out.

Robins suffer this condition more often than any other bird. This is the most minimally invasive procedure there is but it is one of the true emergencies that can't be delayed for subsequent treatment.

Corky is a baby and so, without any body fat to speak of, it would be very tough to figure out where the chest cavity ended and the skin started so it's really a very good thing that you took him to your vet.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess I figured that a pneumothorax was dangerous because the air is trapped in the pleural space and, therefore, causes the pressure and resultant collapse of the lung. Leaking outside to be a subcutaneous embolism is a bit different. So, you're saying that there's a dangerous presentation of an external embolism that signifies that the sources is inside the thoracic cavity that's leaking out to beneath the skin?

I had an interesting one the other day in a bird that's been healing from a broken humerus for some months now. His entire neck inflated and caused him it to extend such that he could neither eat or drink. I had to deflate it several times before it finally quit.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2007)

Pidgey,

Yes, it's all called subcutaneous emphysema of one kind or another. In this particular situation, air is being expelled into the chest cavity.

It's a dangerous condition because as you know, there is no separation among the various organs in the chest cavity so air can put pressure on the crop and cause reflux. The proventriculus is there too. I think that if the air is in a particular spot in the cavity, it's possible that blood circulation to organs could become impaired resulting in cell death.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When Maggie originally posted this, it was with the idea that it was a hematoma instead of an embolism, of course. I can imagine a bird with a true pneumothorax going down with little warning and no decent way of knowing what to do.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2007)

Yes, we all thought it was a hematoma and that's the way our thought processes went but that changed after the vet saw this bird. It adds to the errors that can happen when these things are discussed over the net.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

*Are we cute or what?*

Took this picture yesterday of Miss Mamie and Corky. Corky is on the right and doing very well. She is almost as large as Miss Mamie and is totally self feeding.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

What a little 'doll baby' Corky is, Maggie. 
I'm so glad to hear she's doing well.

Thanks for the update *&* picture.  

Cindy


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

What cutie-pies! Corky has come such a long way--so glad to see her looking good.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What a cutie he is. I am so glad he is doing so well.
Thanks for the lovely pic.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WELL, WELL DONE!!

Miss Mamie and Corky look GREAT!!

I guess only time will tell if they are HEs or SHEs... 

We will continue to look forward to their growth and antics! What a survivor that Corky is! 

Love, Hugs and Scritches to you all!!

Shi and Squeaks


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

They are both just adorable, Maggie, and looking so very good!  

Terry


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Just an outstanding ending. Bless you Maggie and Lewis.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks everyone. The little black one, Miss Mamie, is more the character but she has been one whole day self feeding now and is eating really well so I think we can stop feeding her too. She is the kind you just want to hug all the time, outgoing, still doing her own unique little squealing and running around. She can fly some now too. The baby Corky is a bit more reserved but has started flapping "in place" on the counter. She seems to be more exuberant in her cage when you go to her than when outside.

I had to laugh when I took a second look at the picture this morning. Most people have cannisters of flour, sugar, etc. ......we have bird seed!


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