# What color are they?



## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

I was given 2 pairs from a a nice member on here and Im curious as to what colors they have on them.
I have 2 solid white ones and 2 white ones with some color on them.

unknown #1

















Unknown #2


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The first one is a recessive red mottle (heavily mottled, very pretty!). The second one is a blue grizzle (homozygous possibly, probably also splashed to help with all the white). The reddish color on the wings is bronze, which is common in blue grizzles.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for the help!
If they are each bred to solid white mates, what color might their offspring to be?


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I like the colors!


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks.
Heres all 4 together:


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

mostly white birds, give mostly white birds, as they molt then the color will come out, my JO JO was born all white he now has red specks on head a few red feathers in the shields of his wings, he is 3 months old now. his father is a red tiger grizzle, mother is a heavey white pied, almost all white except her tail and a few black feathers on wings shields.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

well paired with recessive whites you could get a lot of different things. Your white birds look recessive white, that means they hide there true color, so they be a blue bar or anything underneath. If your other birds happen to carry recessive white then you would only get more recessive whites.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for the info.
I hope they are recessive whites.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The first one is a recessive red mottle (heavily mottled, very pretty!). The second one is a blue grizzle (homozygous possibly, probably also splashed to help with all the white). The reddish color on the wings is bronze, which is common in blue grizzles.


you sure the 2nd one is not diluted? tail looks pretty silver.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, it is silver. The bronze is diluted too. Didn't notice that


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Heres a close up of the tail of the 2nd one if it helps any:









Heres the other one, showing how much white it has:


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah that second one could have a lot of piebald (splash) in it. You would have had to have known what it looked like in the nest. You can only get more of the reds if they whites also have recessive red in them. Your outcome for mating them to the whites can not be said. You could get anything. If they were whites with a colored eye (orange or pearl) then it would be a **** grizzle and you would get het grizzles.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

I got them from someone on here, he may know more.
So what color would theone with blue be called?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Its called silver, its not blue. Its a silver **** (Homozygous) grizzle. It could also have splash. Silver is dilute blue. Dilute is a gene that cuts the pigment color in half. So with it blue becomes silver, brown becomes khaki, ash red becomes ash yellow, recessive red becomes recessive yellow, black becomes dun, bronzes become sulphur. That's all i can think of.

As for how its inherited, if you silver is a cock then when paired up with a intense (non dilute or normal) you will get all your hens will be diluted and all cocks will be normal. Your red would technically be called a red mottle although not much mottling is going on. It could be an "inversion to white" where it started off all red and slowly went white.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Its called silver, its not blue. Its a silver **** (Homozygous) grizzle. It could also have splash. Silver is dilute blue. Dilute is a gene that cuts the pigment color in half. So with it blue becomes silver, brown becomes khaki, ash red becomes ash yellow, recessive red becomes recessive yellow, black becomes dun, bronzes become sulphur. That's all i can think of.
> 
> As for how its inherited, if you silver is a cock then when paired up with a intense (non dilute or normal) you will get all your hens will be diluted and all cocks will be normal. Your red would technically be called a red mottle although not much mottling is going on. It could be an "inversion to white" where it started off all red and slowly went white.



Thanks so much for the info! You helped me out alot


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

haha no problem, i really only know basic stuff. The experts in genetics here are geroge simon, rudolph.ext, and MaryofExeter


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Im still very new to pigeon genetics, so I still have lots to learn


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah, well if you want to learn more

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html

also if you can always shift through all the threads here.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

I already have those links saved to my favorites 
some of the info is confusing though,lol

Ive been seaching this forum and its very helpful


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## mpigeon (Aug 25, 2011)

Awww, they're sooooo pretty!


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks

How do you know which marking they are?

Mottle verses splashed, etc


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

well, some say splash can make a mottled look. The tiger grizzle gene is normally responsible. You can have a combination of the two also. I think you really have to breed to find out. I've tried hard to find out what gene is working on my red mottles and black mottle prints. It was suggested i breed a red to a solid color bird to see reaction. So just one solo gene, like tiger grizzle, or splash is easy to tell. When combinations its gets harder. Its another one of those fields which is not fully understood. As for just a splash colored bird here is one below

The splash is in the head here, as the white flights is a separate thing.









edit: this may be a better example of how it can really whiten a bird up


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

oh, and on mottles, Becky called yours heavily mottled. I would call any bird that is either very color and lightly white or very white and lightly colored lightly mottled. So heavily mottled to the point it looks lightly mottled with red. But in actuality its red so heavily mottled with white. If you get what im saying.

People like different types of mottled birds. Some like alittle some like it heavily. Ideally it should be right in the middle. Some also like pied flights where the flight and tail feathers are also black and white. Ill post some of my birds. I like them all really. You can flip through these three albums and see a lot of mine

dark mottles (prints because of the grizzle head)

here are my balanced out ones and the really white ones

and here are all my reds, i don't have any that are in the middle and show a good balance =/ now that i think about i haven't seen any tippler with a good balance i think

there's also a self red and a red which i don't think is mottled, or has fully converted white. Ill have to find out about him. There's also a yellow in there to disregard

oh yeah then theres this one bronze mottle i have, click, click, click


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Print Tippler said:


> well, some say splash can make a mottled look. The tiger grizzle gene is normally responsible. You can have a combination of the two also. I think you really have to breed to find out. I've tried hard to find out what gene is working on my red mottles and black mottle prints. It was suggested i breed a red to a solid color bird to see reaction. So just one solo gene, like tiger grizzle, or splash is easy to tell. When combinations its gets harder. Its another one of those fields which is not fully understood. As for just a splash colored bird here is one below
> 
> The splash is in the head here, as the white flights is a separate thing.
> 
> ...


Splash (as I understand the term) is never caused by Tiger Grizzle. A bird is splash if there are clearly defined pure white patches placed randomly about the bird (very often with a large patch on the head and neck), while tiger grizzle causes a colored and white mixture, with the tigered areas almost never pure white or pure colour. 









Compare this picture of a tiger, to the pictures of splashes posted before (Obviously those splashes are pied and NOT tiger grizzle)

It is very important to think in terms of gene effects rather than use terms specific to a breed. Splash is one of those terms that differ between breeds.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Oh, I never said splash was the same as tiger grizzle. I was in some places talking about spash in combination with tiger grizzle. I thought he wanted to know about both.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for all the help!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

On another note, any time you have white on a recessive bird, it's usually called "mottle" unless it's clean enough to conform to another "pattern" (as seen in the moorhead breeds, scandaroons, etc who have a specific pattern where the white and color should be). Honestly, we have no idea what causes mottles in RR. It seems to be more complex than a normal splashed, mottled, etc bird. Recessive reds can also revert to white, which I suspect your bird probably did. They start out with more color and then moult in a lot more white (moreso than a normal mottle would do). Usually keeping the red on the head and flights I believe. I can't remember. Reminds me a lot of pencil. Or your bird could have been hatched out with that much white from the start. Who knows?


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

That makes sense


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Print Tippler said:


> Oh, I never said splash was the same as tiger grizzle. I was in some places talking about spash in combination with tiger grizzle. I thought he wanted to know about both.


To me it sounds like you said they were the same.


Print Tippler said:


> Well, some say splash can make a mottled look. The tiger grizzle gene is normally responsible


Ie. tiger grizzle is normally responsible for the splash. 

Sorry if I misunderstood, the sentence was a little ambiguous 

Anyway, what I was trying to explain in my post, is this: Since splash is NOT a gene, it cannot cause a mottled look. It cannot cause anyhing, since no such gene exists. Usually pied genes cause white patches (small or large) that in some breeds are called splash, these pied genes do not cause a 'mottled look', similar in any way to tiger grizzles or recessive red mottles.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I think he meant, while although splashed birds can look mottled, tiger grizzle is usually responsible for mottle 


I have seen some spread birds with piebald that had the feathers placed just right to look like a poor quality mottle. In which a lot of fanciers would call it mottle simply because it's a black and white bird.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NewHopePoultry said:


> Thanks.
> Heres all 4 together:


Look at the birds They are more mismarked whites. That show they could be from even a white over grizzle pairing With out knowing the color of the PARENT birds it is just a guess. Putting these birds back over a white mating. They can produce all whites Or 75 percent all whites. WHITE itself is not a resessive based color White is often not called a color at all. And has been said to have 3 different depths of white. White birds put over to white for generations Will 99 percent of the time just throw whites Even 100 percent. That is when white has became the base ANY color can be used when breeding for QUALITY and the person just has to rest the wanted color line You can use great colored blacks over white and bring back the white or bring back the black. This has been done for ever A good mottle should show mottle through out Patches show less strengh. Pied , mismarks and such often come from color cross line breeding. Then pied over pied can increase the effect. Wher breed types fantails I have seen used to some saying They are many pied bald But I have never seen many except the color line cross over Being used to bring needed quality into the mating. White over white gets white And has the set base that can be called white Because it breeds only white birds. NOT pied/mismarked. AFTER the line has been set. Just as Gazzi modenas A good marked gazzi can come from a scheitti pairing where the cock carries gazzi But does not show it. Color has been known to tear a loft up when playing only to find colors As bringing out hidden color Brings out hidden faults So backward steps unless selective control is used destroys years of work. Color should have reason when breeding towrds a solid goal. UNLESS the birds are just pets for the backyard.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

Beautiful birds


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks
These 4 will probly just be backyard pets, Im just curious about colors and stuff


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

I found this info online:
Tiger Grizzle:The natural feather patterning of white and colored body feathers, with a solid colored tail, found in Tiger Grizzles, is not a Marking. It is a natural, self-reoccurring “pattern” which the breeder did not create; however, Color does come into play with Tiger Grizzle. (Tiger’s in some breeds are referred to as Mottles, and Splashes, such as Trumpeters, as one example.)


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