# My pigeon is sick



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I rescued her last Autumn, she was very sick, and now again, she stopped eating today, I hand fed her. She doesn't seem sick, but she is definitely sick. I gave probiotics and i have Sulfadimidine 16% (Sulfamethazine), and I also gave her metronidazole. She was on Baytril a few months ago, but some bacteria are obviously resistant. 
Please help me, what should I do??
I also put a few drops apple vinegar in the formula, just in case.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 



Details about the appearence of the poops and urates? Colors, consistencys, how many in 24 hours?


What else for symptoms? 


Images?


Does this Pigeon live inside with you? Or outside? And where are you located?


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I live in Belgrade, Serbia.
She pooped a big one today after she came out of the nest and after that only 3 poops, first two just urates, white and kind of slimy. And the last one there was little green poop and colorless urate.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 



Get the afflicted Doves into cages or suitable Boxes indoors, and warm...

Post images of the poops urates for us to see, good, close up images.

Have the Birds in individual Boxes, look-out holes cut out in the sides for them to see out of...have white Paper Towels lining the bottom, so you can see and count poops/urates better.


With-hold feed for now...

Provide ACV-Water ( say, 2-1/2 Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon of Water )

Smell the Doves Bodys...smell their Breath and or open their Beaks and smell also.

Let us know what these smell like...


Is there an odor to the urates/poops?


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

She is my pet and lives with me in the apartment. She has a mate who is also her son. The first two bad poops smelled bad, but the last one didn't.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 


Worms...Canker...Bacterial...injury...Calcium deficiency...Candida...

Close up images of the latest poops?


Dobato sent me this to relay to you, if you would like to use the Medicine you have -



> With this bird and the 16% Sulfamethazine she has. Remember it's easy, this just means there are 160mg of Sulfamethazine to each 1cc/mL. Typically, with most sulfas, you want to 3-5mg of med for each 100 grams of body weight twice a day into them.



But, I am not able to form a very good picture of her symptoms.

There is also another Thread about some sick Doves, and I was starting to get that confused with yours earlier.


I am over-tired today...pardon me.

I need to know the colors, consistency, and other details of the poop and the urates.


Is her crop passing the hand-fed food alright?

Is there any odoer from her mouth, if you open her Beak and smell her open Beak as she breathes?

Is her Vent clean?

Has she lain Eggs before?

Is she sitting on Eggs now?


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

She has laid eggs before and she's been sitting on them these days, she laid them maybe 5 days ago. 

She is throwing up, but it's doesn't smell bad, neither does the poop. She even ate some seeds today but she threw it up later. The same goes for the formula.
I'm giving her metronidazole, I have suspension for infusion. Should I start with some antibiotics??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Poop

http://img13.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=040720101042.jpg


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Can you Tube feed?


I think you should with-hold Seeds for a while.

Her poops do not co-respond to anything I feel familiar with.

This might be an advanced enteritis of some kind, or something is badly effecting her Intestines, and, to a point where her upper GI is being effected also, or this may be inferred, if there is mucous or 'Syrupy' opaque Liquids attending or surrounding the fecal matter.

If her Urates are clear or opaque, I think we can assume something is adversely effecting her Kidneys.


Do you have 'Sulmet'? Or anything for treating Coccidiosis?


This does not appear typical of Canker, or, Candida, though no harm if you were to treat for both.


I do not know if Worms could be associated with poops and liquids of this appearence, but, m-a-y-b-e they could be.


That is about all I can think of for this...being to...


- With-Hold Seeds...and, tube feed a nutritious thin Formula for now.


- Consider to treat with a broad spectrum Antibiotic, and possibly a Wormer and or Anti-Coccidia Medicine.


Maybe someone else will have a more succinct idea of what is going on.

It is different than anything I have seen before.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I have Sulfadimidine, it's the same as Sulmet, only my is 16%.

What color should urates be??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

http://img192.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=050720101045.jpg

New pictures, I smeared the poop a little so you can see better


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I bought doxycicline, what is the correct dosage?? Will the calcium in the formula tie it up and make unavaliable??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal said:


> I have Sulfadimidine, it's the same as Sulmet, only my is 16%.
> 
> What color should urates be??



Ideally, the Urates appear to be a densly pigmented White Paste, which wraps itself somewhat around, or, lays on top of the Fecal Matter 'poop'...being expelled together.

Hormones, changes of diet, sitting Eggs, Grit types or eating too much Grit, can change the Poops and Urates dramatically...though what we are seeing with your Bird's poops and Urates, is not likely from any of those things.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal said:


> http://img192.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=050720101045.jpg
> 
> New pictures, I smeared the poop a little so you can see better



Well...these do look a lot better than the earlier ones.

At least we do see some 'White' Urates now...if possibly they appear a little curdled.


Poops could be from eating mostly 'Peas'...does she eat mostly dried Peas?


When they eat mostly dried Peas, their poops will look like Split Pea Soup.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal said:


> I bought doxycicline, what is the correct dosage?? Will the calcium in the formula tie it up and make unavaliable??




Do you have any way to weigh her?


Also, is there anything else you can think of, to add to your description of her symptoms?


There were some smelly larger poops with no White Urates present?

She was throwing up?

Anything else you can recall or add?

Has she ever been Wormed?


What has her Diet been, exactly?

What kind of Grit?


Does she get to have direct, unfiltered by glass, Sunlight now and then?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

She's been wormed two times with Ascapilla (Fenbendazole). 

I think her poop is this color because of milk thistle extract I gave her for the liver. The extract is ocher. Otherwise, the poop would be bright green, like in the first pictures I posted.
She vomited so many times when she was sick last Autumn, maybe because of the liver. 

She seems alert, poops quite often now, poops are small but again, she doesn't eat very much, I tube feed her, and even then she throws up. I'm giving her huge doses of probiotics, different kinds, i.e. with different bacteria in them. That should help. I can weigh her in my pet shop, but I think she weighs maybe 280-300 grams. 

I have Sulmet, but it is contraindicated in patients with liver disease, and I have doxycicline, which is better even for kidneys.

And when she was sick poop and her vomit smelled terrible, sour, now they don't. I can only smell medicine.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hmmmmmmmm...


I wish I felt more confident here with this presentation.


Can you get 'Medistatin'?


This would be used for treating Yeast or Candida troubles in the digestive system.


Do you feel she has so far responded well to the Metronidazole you had began?


The throwing up with bad smells, does suggest a slow or sluggish possibly fermenting or infected Crop...or suggests some locus or other, of digestive troubles which are discourageing the passing of solid Foods...or illness in the Crop or digestive system...or her having eaten Food which had spoiled or been contaminated somehow...or maybe LIver problems, even though we are not seeing conspicuous Bile in the poops.


What kinds of Seeds had she been eating?


I am not familiar with how thorough a Wormer 'Fenbendazole' is...

Are Tape Worms comon in your region?


You did follow-up Doses after waiting a ten or twelve day period?


Metronidazole will treat quite a few things besides Trichomonal Illness...so if it seems to be helping, that is good, and, I would think you may as well continue to treat her with it for a while.

If you are tube Feeding, and, the formula is passing and digesting well...you may as well mix the Formula with 'ACV-Water'...say, three or four Tablespoons of raw, unfiltered, organic, Apple Cider Vinegar, to a Gallon of Water.


This will aid the Metronidazole to work better, and, contribute to lessening of possible Yeast or Candida issues in her upper GI.


Thought 'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' would be best for those.


Was there 'Mucous' present in her earlier poops?


I just do not know with this set of conditions, if the 'Sulmet' would be more desireable, or, if the Enroflaxyn would.


'Dobato' had forwarded to me this info for you, respecting the 'Sulmet' -




> With this bird and the 16% Sulfamethazine she has. Remember it's easy, this just means there are 160mg of Sulfamethazine to each 1cc/mL. Typically, with most sulfas, you want to 3-5mg of med for each 100 grams of body weight twice a day into them.



Enroflaxyn dosage, for Pigeon, is fairly flexible, and, would be about as 5 - 10 mG/K PO ( Orally or in Drink), per day.


I do not know if it is alright to use both the 'Sulmet' and the Enroflaxyn concurrently, or, not, or if one would stagger them by 12 hours if one were to use both.


If it was me...and this was my Bird, I would probably press my Temples...close my eyes, and, go with the Sulmet...and see how things go.



I am also wondering about whether there could be a Worm issue afoot here.


Can you get 'Moxidectin Plus'?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I can't get Moxidextin.

Fenbendazole is the same as Panacur. I can also get Levamisole. Is sulmet good for bacteria too?? 

She is now laying on the eggs, what should I do, should I remove them??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 


Sulmet is good for quite a few Bacteria...

If you feel there may be a Liver compromise, then do not use the Sulmet, but, instead, go with the Enroflaxyn.


I just can not say from the descriptions, that there is good reason to suppose a systemic Bacterial issue...even though something appears to be effecting her Kidneys.

So I am feeling at a loss here on this.


Was there Mucous with the poops prior to adminstering the Metrodizole?


It seems more like a dietary or food poisoning matter, or, a Crop injury/contusion occasioning a slowed Crop...or something permitted Crop contents to either ferment or to harbor Bacteria in that sense of Bacteria, which can be pretty toxic to their system...but, differing from a systemic Bacterial infection.


Poops look just like what one sees if a Pigeon eats only dried 'Peas'.


What has her diet been?



I would say, let her sit her Eggs...they will be a comfort to her, and, give her something to do.


When she was Wormed previously, did you see dead or dieing Worms in her poops?

And, did you do the follow-up ten or twelve days later?


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes I did, and I didn't see dead worms in her poop, only in the poop of her previous mate, he ran away couple of months ago. 

I found different dosage for Sumet, I found this "daily dose of sulfamethazine is 50–65 mg per pigeon".
And what do you think about Doxycicline??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If you think there are possibly Liver compromise, then go with the Enroflaxyn, and, see if it improves things...


While continuing with the Metronidazole, which has seemed to improve things.


And, use the ACV-Water for mixing formula.


What had her diet been?



Bed Time now, for me, and, the little Beaks here...


Nightynight...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Eternal,

The dose you posted as a daily dose for the sulfamethazine, 50-65mg, would be more correct if you are meaning 50-65mg/kg a day, not as a total amount of med for the entire day. I think you would be better off treating with the Sulmet you have to start, than the Doxycycline, as sulfa drugs are more referred to as drugs of choice for bacterial GI issues.

The Sulmet you have has 160mg per 1cc, so if you mix 1cc of this into 9cc of water and tube her 1cc of this, mixed into 5cc of re-hydration fluid, then she will be getting 16mg of sulfamethazine, you would do this twice a day. I would also continue with the metronidazole. I would not worry about feeding her for the next day or so to start, just keep tubing her small amounts of re-hydration fluid to flush her system, 5-7cc at a time give about every 2 hours, you can add meds to this when it's time for them. You can make this by adding 2 teaspoons of sugar, 1/4 teaspoon of salt and a pinch of baking soda (bicarbonate of soda) to 8oz of water. Lots of fluids will flush her system and help get her body well hydrated, very important for her in fighting off an infection.


Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I bought Bactrim, and I gave her, she threw up, she can't hold anything, I'm so worried. I gave her Nystatin also. I'm going to try again soon.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, Bactrim is in the same family of drugs, sulfonamides, as Sulmet is, dosage is important to avoid stomach upset. What is the strength of Bactrim you have and how much did you give her?

Try a small amount of re-hydration fluid (5cc), no meds and see if she'll keep that down.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I have one that has 200 mg of sulfamethoxazole and 40 mg of trimethoprim in 5 ml. I gave her 0.8 ml.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

This would be 48mg/mL of med and you gave her .80mL of this, so this means you gave her a little over 38mg of med, this is too high a dose.

You want to give her .30mL twice a day, but lets wait a tiny bit and see if we can get a bit of hydration fluid into her first, did you give her the 5mL of fluid with no meds?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I didn't because I put a bowl with water in front of her and she drank. 

What could this be?? She is now laying on her eggs.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, replace the water in her bowel, if you haven't already done so, with the hydration fluid. You seem to be able to get whatever meds you want where you are, could you pick up some Metoclopramide (Reglan) solution compounded to 1mg/mL, or this drug at all, it will help move move things quicker through her (crop) GI system.

Without lab work, you usually start with the probable, bacterial, or fungal then move to possible helminths (worms) something viral or other parasitic disease if they don't respond. Hopefully she'll respond to treatment.

Did she keep down any of the Bactrim you gave her, or did enough come up that she did not get much of the med?

How much Nystatin did you give her and what is its concentration?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave her 100 000 IU. 

Now my other pigeon started throwing up after he drank water with probiotics, how could that be????

And what is the hydration fluid?? Saline??? Where can I buy it?? and I should just give it to her as water??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, 100,000IU is fine.

Please look at my post #22, I gave you instructions on how to make it.

Have you changed their food/feed or added anything new as food, how/where is their food kept, could it have gotten wet/damp at anytime? Stop the probiotics for now.

Are you using any ACV?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I put them in the water but they don't want to drink it whole day if there is acv in it. 
I have metoclopramide 1ml/1mg syrup, how much should I give her?? 0.15?

This is terrible.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I put them in the water but they don't want to drink it whole day if there is acv in it.
> I have metocloprimide 1ml/1mg syrup, how much should I give her?? 0.15?
> 
> This is terrible.


Eternal, I know this is terrible, but you need to take a deep breath and try and calm yourself, they will need you well focused in the next little while.

I know you are trying you best, but too much, can be as bad as too little and we need to try and get things right for them.

I asked about the ACV, because I was going to ask you to stop using it if you were putting it in their water, it's very good many times times, but my own experience is when they are vomiting I stop the ACV. With the metocloprimide, the .15mg will be a little too high, use .10mg. Give some to both birds. You did not answer my questions about how much Bactrim you thought may have stayed down in the first bird and on their feed/food.

How many birds do you have that have contact with one another?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm sorry. It didn't stay at all because she vomited everything, so I gave her again, only half dose. They are on the eggs, I'm going to give them metoclopramide now.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, here is what I want you to do after you give the metoclopramide leave them in peace for one hour. I then want you to give the one who did not get the Bactrim .30mL in 5mL of hydration fluid and give then also give the bird, the hen on eggs, 5mL of hydration fluid as well.

Eternal, here's the thing, they can go a number of days without food with not much problem, but if they become dehydrated they will go down hill very fast. I know you say the hen is drinking, but my preference would be for you to leave a water dish for her, with hydration fluid in it, to drink as she likes, but also every 2 hours to tube them each 5mL of this fluid. When a bird is sick like this it is best if there is not much guessing, if you do this we will know for sure they got 30-35mL of fluid over the day very needed right now to flush her system and prevent dehydration, as I said earlier you can add the meds to this fluid when their meds time comes up. 

Karyn


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Karyn, 
I would remove the eggs, as in the past I have had birds that in thier nature will hold they're bowels while sitting in the nest therefore holding the bacteria?. Also possibly a fungus in the nest. I may be wrong but try removing the nest and keep the eggs warm for maybe putting them back in a day or so. If they are both sitting on the eggs the nest may be the problem. I MAY BE WRONG so listen to Karyn eternal.
Kurps


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

It's not fungus in the nest, the nest is new and clean, and the eggs aren't fertilized, so maybe I should remove them?? what should I do??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kurps, I have has birds who were ill on eggs before and when I would take them off to med them, I would place them down and they would void if needed and I would place them back, so holding in waste products usually is not a huge concern when taking them off for brief periods of time through the day. I would be also worried that disrupting her nesting may bring her more stress than just leaving things be for now. We will definitely have to look into disinfecting the premises, I'll see if Eternal can give us a description of how things are set up and what the hen's nest material is.

Thanks,

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

They have a clean cloth and hay (for rabbits, I bought it in pet shop), so it's definitely not fungi from the nest, maybe from something else, food (I give the Versele laga). I'm plan to disinfect my whole apartment on Wednesday, I have an important exam on Wednesday so I can't do it sooner, but I use disinfectants very often.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal.


What had her food been? In detail? What kinds of foods/seeds? And, have you checked these yourself carefully, visually, for scent, taste, wholesomeness? By chewing some?

Hay is normally not used for Birds...although Straw sometimes is.

Maybe just use a clean Cloth, and no Hay, to eliminate one possible thing anyway.

Your 2nd Bird may be coming down with the same thing.

What are his poops and urates looking like?


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him bactrim, he vomited everything. What is happening??????????? I'm desperate.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I tried with Nystatin, the same thing, he threw up everything. What is this???


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

All these medicines are so bitter, maybe I should mix them in some formula???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, no formula for now at all. Has anyone thrown up since?

Have you given them the 5ml each of re-hydration fluid?

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 


I agree with Karyn - cease feeding any formula or other foods now.

Monitor Crops closely, and, note any poops and urates closely...and, if the Crops are able, administer or permit them to drink Rehydration Solutions only for the time being.

Allow them to drink under supervision, or, tube it in, but do not permit free access for drinking...since, if their Crop is not passing, they can over-fill themselves for feeling thirsty, and make for a dangerous situation.



Rehydration solution is eletrolytes in Water...not "Saline".


Do not use Saline for rehydration purposes.


Human infant 'Padelite' is a common, easily obtained rehydration-electrolyte solution...sold in any Grocery Store here.

If need be, one can make a good enough Electrolyte Solution by dissolving and stirring a pinch of Table Salt, and, a pinch of plain ordinary Sugar, into a small glass of Water, and use that.


Were you using Saline for their rehydration solution?

If so, it may have been contributing to the throwing up.


Still waiting to hear back about what their diet had been..! Details of what kinds of Seeds, and, whether you have closely inspected and tasted them and so on, in case there is a problem there of fungus, mold, must or other contaminant.


Let us know?


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I have to go out for a while, what I would like you to do is this. Make sure their crops are empty. Remove all water dishes, tube them each 5mL of re-hydration fluid made this way:



> You can make this by adding 2 teaspoons of sugar, 1/4 teaspoon of salt and a pinch of baking soda (bicarbonate of soda) to 8oz of water.


Leave them alone for a few hours, give them nothing else, we need to try and establish whether anything is moving from their crops.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I haven't used Saline. 
What should I do about eggs???
Her poop is all water now, with little green part and without white part.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Don't want to "muddy" the waters...but, IF there is a chance of a viral infection, do you have access to CARROT JUICE??

Why? Read below...

*Carrot Juice

This was passed onto me by several members of the club & friends, I believe it was originally posted on a WOE site. It's a very interesting article.
This may be of interest to a few.....Some of the readers are aware that I actively participate in the racing sport. When shipping birds to a race, often 3500 birds are entered and the watering system (trough) will tend to service 4-500 birds each. Thus, often a recipe for disease.
A few months ago, my race team came down with Circo Virus. Those that are not aware of this disease, it can be very deadly, primarily hitting young birds. It is similar to AIDS in humans, it completely shuts down the immune system, making the birds in danger to any infection that is normally kept in check. The disease being a virus, has no cure yet when the disease runs it's course, the birds are not carriers, unlike salmonella. Those that have problems with Circo, treat for secondary infections, coccidia, typhoid, etc. Of course, the medications place further strains on the birds. Generally, one tries to replace fluids as much as possible and one treatment is give the birds Pedialyte or even Gatorade. Incidentally, all birds are vaccinated for PMV and typhoid at 4 weeks, again at 10 weeks.
I lost about 8 young racing homers, 3 Modenas and nearly 40 Voorburgs. The disease took a toll on the Voorburgs, they apparently were just more susceptible. I lost almost all the young birds, save those that have been recently weaned. 
Treated for the secondary problems, cleaned daily, changed the PH of the water, added vitamins and probiotics regularly. Yet, daily, one or two more birds would come down with the disease (confirmed by the Cal State Lab and Dr. Zollars in Indiana) The samples sent were negative for salmonella, PMV, Adeno, cocci, & e.coli. 
In a conversation with a friend from Norway, he reported that a woman in Sweden has recommended treating bird viruses with carrot juice! She is not a pigeon fancier and I think I was told she may be a gypsy from one of the Eastern Countries. (Hungary?)
Apparently, she raises other types of domestic birds or fowl. Of course my reply was, "Really, you know that doesn't make sense, one can't treat a virus!" His reply was, "Don't kill the messenger, I'm just repeating what some of the Europeans are doing for Circo, PMV and Adeno." OK, but after losing nearly 50 birds, one often gets desperate and will try something that goes against conventional wisdom. One young bird loft had continual problems, the other lofts had either old birds or much older youngsters and were not infected. The birds that became infected were generally between 8 -12 weeks of age. Additionally, I kept 4 youngsters that normally would be dispatched that were desperately sick. Circo places a huge demand on the kidneys, a great amount of urea is produced and the birds rapidly became dehydrated and emaciated. Within 3-4 days, they are so "down" they are incapable of walking. Within 12 hours they die. So, I took the advice, made a 50/50 blend of carrot juice and water. Held the very sick birds to the drinker and gave the same blend to two lofts. This was on a Sunday, in fact July 5. I repeated holding the birds to drink about three or four times that day. The next morning before work I noticed what I thought was a slight improvement but fully expected the birds to be dead upon my return from work. Later, the birds appeared brighter, they no longer closed their eyes and while they could not walk yet, they were definitely improved over the day before. Also, no sick birds in either of the two treated lofts. On Tuesday, I was surprised to see the very sick birds try to eat and definitely the treated lofts showed an improvement. Only held the birds twice to drink since I went to work that day. Tuesday evening, the sick birds were standing and tried to eat on their own. Wednesday morning, were eating and the responded well to offerings of safflower. I continued with the carrot juice until Friday and one week later, a visitor would not be able to tell which birds were sick. Of course, their weight is still down, but all are recovering nicely and next weekend they will be removed from isolation and join the community loft again. They were eager to take a bath last Sunday and fly readily to perches in the isolation cage.
So........A couple of ideas here....The disease actually ran it's course and was in the final stages anyway.......or, my constant good care allowed survival of the fittest. Or?????does the beta carotene that is high in carrots acts as some blocking agent to a virus? Do carrots, high in sugar content and carbohydrates contribute to a recovery process? Is there something else? Ironically, I spoke to a racing homer fancier whose wife is a Chinese physician that specializes in Eastern remedies and life styles. I told him of the above and he rather smiled and said, "Of course, carrots have been used for years for viruses as well as other vegetable products". He indicated that this is a treatment for PMV and Adeno as well and apparently used readily in Europe and the Far East. So, I cannot comment more on the subject, makes little sense to me...but, if the birds even faintly look sick, carrot juice will be in the mix. Just sharing some findings, don't kill the messenger.
Posted by Bob Cook, Member of the AZ Pigeon Club in the AZPIGEONCLUB Newsletter-Jan 2010*

Sending all our best with Love and Hugs

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Shi,


Well...we have to determine how poorly liquids alone are even passing at this point, then to decide about that before adding anything else I think.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shi, thanks for the reference, will keep that information in mind, just in case.




eternal said:


> I haven't used Saline.
> What should I do about eggs???
> Her poop is all water now, with little green part and without white part.


Eternal, leave the eggs for now, let her sit them if see desires to do this. Sounds like things may be moving through her a bit, we should be expecting droppings as you describe, if fact this is what we want right now.

Eternal you have to slow down a bit and help us help you, we are still waiting on answers to the following, some have been asked before, with no answer, a few are new.

Describe in detail what her diet is, I know you mentioned a brand, but what's in that mix, please describe and have you stuck you face into the bag to smell it wel, and even tasted it yet?

Can you do the same for the straw, if you still have some left in the bag, stick you face in the bag, what does it smell like, clean, dry and sweet smelling kind of, or any off smells, such as a damp or moldy scent.

How many bird do you have and do they mix?

Are worms common in your region?

Did you do a follow-up dose after waiting a ten or twelve day period after the first dose of worm medicine was given?

Was there any 'mucous' present in her earlier droppings?

Is there a chance the male could have eaten any of the hen's vomit at anytime?

If things have stayed down, and the crop is emptying, give them another 5mL of re-hydration fluid every 2 hours and their meds on schedule. Also, you can take the dose of the Bactrim down to .15mL every 12 hours (so half of what you were giving before) it will still be effective at this lower level and the reduced dose may help her keep it down.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I sometimes eat their food so I wouldn't say that the food is the problem. But my male escaped few weeks ago and returned after 12h. 

As to straw, it smells very nice and it's fresh. 

I have three birds right now, little pigeon I rescued 3 weeks ago and these two, the don't mix, although the female fed once or twice the little guy when I wasn't looking. 

There are worms where I live, of course, her previous mate had them and I gave them both fenbendazole (tried with ivermectin but it wasn't effective?!) twice, two weeks apart. 

There was mucous in the droppings. There is still mucous. 

The male and the female had fed one another before she laid eggs.

I think that she is digesting, there is poop, although it's practically only water, I gave her Bactrim and she almost threw up. Now she is on eggs, and he is eating. What should I do about him??? He obviously needs to be treated but how???


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,



Can you safely tube feed formula? Do you have experience with this?


She should not be allowed any Seeds yet in her condition.


Images of the latest poops and urates?


Do you have a Vet who could do a fecal examination with a Microscope?



Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I bought some re-hydration powder (HUMANA ELEKTROLYT) and I gave her with Metrodnidazole. 

I tube fed her this morning, I know how it's done, I gave her only 10 cc with Nystatin. 

My vet is on vacation, he's back on 20th July. 

She wants to eat seeds now. Do you think I should feed her again now??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,



Just tube feed good Formula for the time being...for a few days.

Continue with the Metronidazole, and, the Nystatin, and see how these do for improving her condition.

Once we are all assured she is passing and digesting the formula well, and making good, real, fecal-matter poops...then we can consider how soon to allow her to have small whole Seeds...but not sooner, it would be too dangerous for her.


Images of the recent poops?


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Fist two are after I took her out of the nest, you can see how much mucous there is. 

http://img341.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=060720101047.jpg


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

How much formula should I give her with every feeding??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think she does have an Intestinal Illness...

Lets see how the Metronidizole, Nystatin, and Bactrim do, just carrying on as you are for a while.

Tube in frequent small meals of Formula...also, of electrolytes, monitoring the Crop's passing of these...and lets just keep this steady for the rest of the week, and see how things go.

If anything seems to worsten, we can discuss changes to the regimen.

If things improve, we will be able to tell.

The only addition I would be tempted to make at this point, is if you have 'Enroflaxyn'.


I do not remember...do you have that one?


Best wishes!

Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

How much cc of formula?? 
10, 15?? 

I have this one: link

And what do you think this is?? And how is it possible, she was on antibiotics maybe two months ago, the vet gave me enrofloxacin because she had very bubbly droppings. I though she was cured and now this?? 

Could this be fungi??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Looks like a nice enough formula product.

I would say, go ahead and mix it using the electrolyte-water, and, mix it, stirring very well, and, mix so it is fairly thin, about like Melted Ice Cream would be on a Hot Day.

10 cc at-a-time for a meal...just see how the Crop Empties then, to decide next feeding.


Doing this in this way, you could allow her to drink between meals...and this should keep her well hydrated.

Hard to guess on what her prior illness was.


Bubbles in poops may suggest a Yeast infection and fermentation process or other Microbial decomposition of intestinal contents which are on a scale which is maybe too immodest for the Bird's good.


No 'bubbles' these days though...correct? Just some Mucous, and things-not-right?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, has laid out a good plan for her, please follow it carefully. What I would add is do not feed more than 10cc at a time right now, if she vomits, reduce it in half to 5cc and just feed more ofter. Keep the formula fairly thin, like Phil instructed. When you mix the formula up and you are happy with the consistency, let it then sit for half an hour, then re-check it for final thickness before feeding. When you do this it will usually thicken up a bit more and you will need to add more fluid to it to thin it out a some more before feeding, make sure you warm the formula a bit before feeding. When doing this make sure it is not too hot, no hot spots, stir with a finger, not a spoon so you can "feel" how warm it is, and test finger to your cheek for temperature. I think you need to treat all three birds, with the Bactrim, Metronidazole and Nystatin, although not proven what exactly is the cause of this sickness, this will help prevent re-infection occurring coming from an untreated bird who may be infected, but not show strong symptoms. You can also continue to give .10cc of the metocloprimide 2 hours before feeding in 5cc of hydration fluid, every twelve hours (twice a day).

Please disinfect all areas where they are/live with a 1:10 house hold bleach solution, 1 part bleach to 9 parts of water, wipe all surfaces and wear gloves. This solution off gasses chlorine gas, so the birds can not be in the area when you do this and for 1 hour after.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I have different kind of disinfectants, but I'm planning on disinfecting everything.

She hasn't vomited since. I know I have to treat all the birds, but how can I treat the male if he is vomiting everything, absolutely everything??
Maybe if I mix it in the formula and mask the bitter taste?? what do you think??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I want you to tube him 5mL of re-hydration fluid only, with .10 of the metocloprimide and report how this goes.

Glad to here the hen has settled down.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him metoclopramide two times and he didn't vomited because it is sweet. But all other medicines are bitter. He drink re-hydration fluid by himself although it's not without taste. I will do what you told me, but I don't think it will help with vomiting Nystatin and Bactrim.

they are very careful when they drink, they first circle around the bowl, then they dip their beaks, after that they try one sip and if it's only water the will drink, if not, they won't drink it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, the first thing we have to do is make sure he is being hydrated enough to with stand the impact of any vomiting. We need to get a few doses of just re-hydration fluid in him before even thinking about meding' him again. If he keeps down the fluid, in an hour give him 5mL more of just fluid then in three hours give him 5mL of fluid with .15mg of Bactrim and report back.

We'll try and get him on water alone tomorrow, if this is what he handles best, but let's get some sugar and electrolytes into him today.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He vomited again. Last night he didn't, now he threw up again. I'm really desperate. Why is he throwing up the medicines??? He vomited everything he had in the crop!!!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, do you have an ajustable nozzle, water spray bottle, the kind with a trigger handle or can you go and get one?

Can you please describe in more detail what leads to his vomiting, _example; I gave him 5mL of liquids and he immediately brought it back up, or I gave him 10cc of hand feeding formula and 15 minutes later he vomited. _ We need lots more details to try and figure out as to why sometimes he vomits and sometimes he doesn't, all details; med, food, amount added so on. Describe where he vomits, is it in the same spot, is it in his cage, do you have him in a cage?

How is the hen?,

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Last night I mixed Bactrim in the formula and gave it to him, he didn't vomited. 
This morning I did the same, but he vomited maybe 15 minutes later. When I give him only Bactrim, he vomits immediately. It's not important where he is and he doesn't have a cage. When I gave him only metoclopramide, he doesn't vomit because it has sweet taste. and even in the instruction for the patients, it is said to mix Bactrim with some food to avoid intestinal upsets. 

I have a nozzle, why??

Hen is sitting on the eggs, he hasn't vomited since, I hand feed her and give her all the medicines.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, sometimes we have to let the bird guide us in what we do, if you say you can mix in the Bactrim into his formula and will not vomit then do this, I would increase the dose slightly to .20cc. Place just water in for him to drink, as you say he will drink this and not vomit. You can add the 100,000IU to some formula later to make sure he is getting an antifungal. With the hen's symptoms abating, this may be a good indicator that the meds are working we just have to try and keep them down in him for a few days.

With the water bottle, a little story. A few years ago I had a bird, much like your male, that was very ill and just would not keep anything down, tube-then throw up again and again, could not keep the meds down him, I thought he needed, and it was the weekend of course, so no vet around. His hospital cage was on the kitchen table I had just tubed him and he was getting into his body position to throw up again, body stretched and elongated, gaping his mouth and neck feathers fluffed out. In frustration, I picked up a water bottle, we use to mist our kitchen plants, and set it to spray and sprayed him in his face, telling him, if you do not stop throwing up you are going to die. When I sprayed him in his face it really shocked him and he when back to a more normal body posture, kind of reset his brain patterns. Then about 5 minutes later he started to take his throw up body stance and I sprayed him again, he did not throw up and went back to a more normal posture. This happened 4-5 times and eventually, he stopped trying to throw up as the fluid/meds had moved out of his crop. Later that night a repeat of what I just laid out and in the morning again, but he only tried once and later that night, not at all, I was able to keep the meds down in him, allowing them to start to work by doing this.

What I am suggesting to you, if push comes to shove, and he continues to throw up, try what I did above. You will have to most likely keep him in a cage to be really effective, I can't guarantee it will work for you, as this is the only time I have had to do this, but the shock of the spray really took my birds mind off of throwing up. If you do this you will have to sit by his cage for a few hours, especially if it is food you have tubed, and not a small amount of meds in fluid, and not leave him until you are sure his crop has emptied.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Last night I gave him Bactrim with very thick-made formula and he didn't threw up. I gave him Bactrim the same way 5 minutes ago and now I'm waiting to see, let's hope he won't vomit. 

The urates of my hen are now yellow, is it because of the medicines or it because of the liver??? Now I'm scared like hell.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I am glad to hear the male did not throw up. With the urates, the meds she is on will effect them, wait until she is off all meds, especially the Nystatin, before worrying too much.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...the various Medicines will change the pooops and urates.

Nystatin particularly seems to change the Urates to have an orange color tinge.

Images ( none the less?) of today's poops?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Today she started to throw up again, the male also. I gave her today Bactrim mixed with the formula and she threw it all. Then I gave her metronidazole, the same thing happened. I tried giving her Bactrim only, but she vomited. I gave her metoclopramide, it didn't help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, could you please take a bit of time and post exactly, in thorough detail, what you are doing. All medicines being given, given how, at which times, how much, how often. Same with food.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Metoclopramide 0.1ml once or twice a day 

Bactrim 30 mg every 12 h

Metronidazole 20 mg twice a day

Nystatin 100 000 iu once a day

I give all the medicine with the formula, sometimes they throw up immediately, sometimes after a couple of hours, sometime they don't

Today I had to skip one dose of Bactrim because my hen was vomiting everything except water.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The poops/urates?

Images?

Description?

Are foods passing even though they are sometimes throwing up?

The formula - how old is it? And, was it refrigerated after being opened?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Metocloprimide 0.1ml once or twice a day


This should be given in about 2-3mL of water 1 hour before any food or larger amounts of fluids, this way it is timed to be reaching peak concentrations to better move the crop contents along, and help prevent vomiting.



> Bactrim 30 mg every 12 h


Eternal, are you sure it is 30mg you are giving twice a day, I thought we had been over the dosing amounts and I suggested you you were doing too high before already. If this is what you are giving, 30mg BID, this dose is too high. Please reduce it to 15mg BID (every 12 hours), infact I suggested to you that you could go even a bit lower, 7.5-10mg BID.



> Metronidazole 20 mg twice a day.


OK, this is fine.



> Nystatin 100 000 iu once a day


This should be twice a day.



> I give all the medicine with the formula, sometimes they throw up immediately, sometimes after a couple of hours, sometime they don't


Eternal, I want to make something perhaps more clear for you. I had asked if possible to give all meds in a small amount of hydration fluid and there is a reason for this. Two of the meds, the Metronidazole and Bactrim are contact and systemic meds, meaning they have effect on direct contact to pathogens sensitive to these meds, and also work by being absorbed into the bloodstream and tissues. The third, Nystatin is a contact med only, it does not get absorbed into the body, but only neutralizes sensitive pathogens when it comes in direct contact with them.

By giving the meds with formula you are essentially buffering the effect these meds will have on direct contact by severely diluting them in the formula, mind you the systemic meds will still be absorbed, but for something like you are dealing with I think your birds are missing a large benefit that could be had by giving the meds on an empty crop in a small amount of fluids, then even gently massaging this around in crop briefly.

I know you say they throw up when done this way, then try using 2mL of fluids to put the meds into to help avoid this, also I gave you a way to try to essentially force them to keep the meds down long enough to pass from the crop and be absorbed with the spraying with the water bottle tip I laid out.

I reviewed the thread and it seems that you were able to give the hen meds a few times in just plain fluids, not formula, and she started to improve, now you have started to add the meds to formula she has started to regress.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I give them metoclopramide 1 hour before meal. It has sweet taste. 

For Bactrim, I've found dosage information here

I have the instruction for Bactrim and it is said that it should be given with food and that taking Bactrim with food or drinks doesn't affect its effectiveness. the instruction for Nystatin says the same thing. Fot metronidazole it says it should be taken with or after the meal.

There is no way to give them medicines on the empty crop, they immediately throw it up, esp. the male. Today the same think happened with the female. 

I couldn't give her metronidazole today at all. I try giving her suspension, she vomited, tried giving it to her in the tablet form twice, but she vomited everything, including the pill. 

I gave them now Bactrim with the formula, 20 mg each, the male is even bigger than her, and I can't risk giving them Nystatin and Metronidazole now. Terrible situation, I'm just hoping they won't vomit again.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> I give them metocloprimide 1 hour before meal. It has sweet taste.


This is fine.



> For Bactrim, I've found dosage information here





> I have the instruction for Bactrim and it is said that it should be given with food and that taking Bactrim with food or drinks doesn't effect its effectiveness. the instruction for Nystatin says the same thing. Fot metronidazole it says it should be taken with or after the meal.


Eternal, I have tried my best to give you guidance on the use of these drugs, not just out of a book, but out of having used them all many times before and how I have found them to personally work best in a situation like what your birds are presenting. I am trying my very best not to get frustrated, but why ask for help, if it is then given and you are just going to do you own thing. The lower dose on the Bactrim I gave you, I know this dose to be effective, not only through an extremely sick bird getting well at this dose, but the dose 50mg/Kg is the dose recommended by my avian vet.

Please think about things reasonably, do you think a drug that works on contact, the Nystatin, is going to be stronger in a few cc's of hydration fluid/water, then given, or a little bit in 10cc of liquid food. What is going to have the highest concentration? The higher the active concentration of the Nystatin is, the more effective it's going to be on a pathogen. I understand what you may have read, but with the other drugs not only will they absorbed systemically, but they will have an effect on contact, so if they are diluted down with a lot of formula, the contact value is going to be greatly diminished.



> There is no way to give them medicines on the empty crop, they immediately throw it up, esp. the male. Today the same think happened with the female.


I personally have not had a bird able to vomit up just 2cc of liquid on a truly empty crop, they need more volume than that to force things up and out, they may try, but if the crop is empty, empty, 2cc is a task to get up for them. Also if you try the water bottle tip it does not take long for a few ccs' to move out of the crop, have you tried this?



> I couldn't give her metronidazole today at all. I try giving her suspension, she vomited, tried giving it to her in the tablet form twice, but she vomited everything, including the pill.


Try giving this 1 hour after the metocloprimide in just 2cc of water so it will move from the crop with haste.



> I gave them now Bactrim with the formula, 20 mg each, the male is even bigger than her, and I can't risk giving them Nystatin and Metronidazole now. Terrible situation, I'm just hoping they won't vomit again.


Perhaps you need to cut down on the amount of formula, 5cc per feeding only and feed a little more often, if there is some food still remaining when you give any meds, there will be enough volume there for them to easily get everything back up. Part of why I wanted you earlier to remove water dishes and control everything going into them was if they have free access to water it gives them volume to throw everything up and if you are controlling their food, plus water/fluid intake, you know exactly how much fluids/food is in them and how long it's been there, helping to avoid giving them meds with enough volume in their crop to throw them right back up. When in a similar situation, my bird has been in a hospital cage with a heating pad on one side set to low, no food or water inside, and for their own good, I control every drop of whatever goes into them. 

Do you have a vet in your area, for help or to run tests?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I lowered the dose, I was giving them the higher dose because I'm always of the resistance. 

The problem is that they always have water in the crop and when I gave today only Bactrim, he threw it up immediately. After that I gave him with the formula, he threw up only small amount immediately and than I held him in my hands to prevent him from throwing up and he didn't, but 2 hours after I gave him Bactrim, he threw up again small amount. 
In going to remove them all the food and water again, and give them back everything after I give him Bactrim. How much often should I give them water on syringe so that they won't dehydrate, but also so they won't have enough to throw up when I give them Bactrim in 8 hours? 

I need your advice on which medicine to buy, Spartix or Ronidazole, which one is better??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I won't try and figure out times zones, but let's say starting at 8:00am you do this.

First (8:00am), give the .10cmL Metoclopramide in 2mL of hydration fluid, give on an empty crop wait 1 hour.
Second (9:00am), give .20mL of the Bactrim and 15mg Metronidazole in 4ml of rehydration fluid, very, very, gently massage it around the crop wait 2 hours.
Third (11:00am), give 5cc of formula, not too thick, wait 3 hours.
Four (2:00pm), give 5cc rehydration fluid with 100,000IU Nystatin, wait 2 hours (if the crop was empty you can very, gently move this around the crop, crop must be empty)
Five (4:00pm), give 5cc of formula, wait 3 hours
Six (7:00pm) give .10cmL Metoclopramide in 2mL hydration fluid, wait 2 hours
Seven (9:00pm) repeat giving .20mL of the Bactrim and 15mg Metronidazole in 4ml of rehydration fluid wait 2 hours.
Eight (11:00pm) give 100,000IU of Nystatin in 2mL of Hydration fluid wait 1-2 hours
Nine (12am-1am) Give 5cc formula, finished for the day.

This is intensive care and if you can get them through a few days like this we can increase amount liquids/food and lengthen times as hopefully the meds have an effect, what is above will give 34mL fluids/food for the day which should be enough for nutrition/hydration. This is just what I would do and you may need to adjust it a bit to meet your life's schedule, and how things are moving through the GI system, but it will give you a starting point of what I hope will work, all we can do is try.

With the Spartrix or Ronidazole, I have heard anecdotal reports that the Ronidazole is effective when other canker treatments are just not working, if you can manage it, why not get both. Let's hope there is nothing resistant, if canker is involved, and the Metronidazole will be effective. If things go well the first day add 1cc more of hydration fluid to where ever you are using it, for example, 8:00am give the .10cmL Metocloprimide in 3mL of hydration fluid (old was 2mL), 9:00am Metro and Bactrim in now 5mL of fluid (old was 4mL), and so on.

What about vets in your area?

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 


Lets see some images of latest poops/urates?

And tell us about how many poops per Bird in say, the last 24 hours.


I want a better idea of how things are passing.


Best wishes..!


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Tried, they are still throwing up. The only way for him to hold down the food is to give it with the formula. Now I ran out of the formula and I can buy only A19 (I have A21), which has 19% protein and more fat:
http://www.versele-laga.com/Nutri/N...=3&mkt=11963&fam=138&ani=-1&ran=7199&pro=5084

http://www.versele-laga.com/Nutri/N...=3&mkt=11963&fam=138&ani=-1&ran=7199&pro=5083

What should I do??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,



Well...lets review what has gone on, and then consider what changes to make.


What have the medicines been? 

Are we sure the Medicines have been given in correct doses?

What are the poops looking like now? ( Images? )

I will check back soon!


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal. the A19 should fine.

Please answer Phil's questions and I have asked a few times about vets in your area and you have not replied to this, does not have to necessarily be an avian vet, but to do tests and run a fecal float. Do they keep the small meals down better than larger ones. Do you have Baytril/Ciprofloxacin on hand, if no vet is available, can you buy injectable Ciprofloxacin? Do you know how old these birds are? Could you please go through things again, was this a sudden onset of illness or was it gradual and how long after the hen was ill did the male start to become ill? Anthing diffrent happen just before, for example, new food, treats, bedding, nest material, supplements, cleaners, or so on?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I will post images later, don't have them right now. There is still mucous in the poop. 

I'm giving them the correct dose, and they throw up only after the medicines, the hen not so much, but the male almost every time, usually few hours later.

I bought A19, but it doesn't have enough protein, only 19%, and there is 12% fat. It also tastes different, A21 formula is more rich and has better taste, this one like it almost doesn't have any. 

I stopped giving them Nystatin, I will continue after I finish with Bactrim, i.d. in a couple of days. They have normal appetite, the problem is they vomit only after I give them antibiotic. The male even managed somehow to vomit 0.10 ml of metoclopramide.

With regard to vet, mine is on vacation till July 20, I will bring droppings to do fecal exam when he gets back.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, the higher fat content in the A19 might be a good thing, in the sense that pigeons metabolize sugars (carbohydrates) and fats to make energy and the higher fat, the lower protein content A19 has, over the A21, I see as being something I would personally prefer, if I had a choice, with a sick bird.

Thanks for the update on your vet, what about the Baytril/Cipro, do you have this on hand, as perhaps we could try a change in meds to see if it makes a difference both in GI upset and in improvement in their condition.

I would not completely eliminate the Nystatin, but perhaps move to once a day dosing.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Could the Antibiotic which seems to occasion the throwing up, be old or out of date?


Some kinds can spoil over time, or if not kept refrigerated.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bactrim was fine, it wasn't old, out of date or something like that. And the little pigeon (the third one) wasn't throwing up. Now, his poop is much better, but the poop of the pair is still not so good, especially the poop of the hen. When she come out of the nest, the poop is terrible, slimy, with mucous, almost like it's some toxic waste. Terrible. During the day, her poop is still terrible, but the poop of the male improved, although they all have moments when there isn't the white thing in the poop, just water and the green part. Why is that?? Is it because they drink a lot (it' really hot here)??

So I'm gonna wait a couple of weeks and take their poop for analysis.

And as to Baytril, I can get it, I tried it before Bactrim, the male was throwing it up, the same as the hen, and it's really bitter.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, thanks for the update. Glad to hear things are a bit better, than worse. When a hen sits on the nest for an extended period of time they can produce voluminous droppings that can smell quite bad at times and sometimes with these voluminous dropping the urates (the white) can look like it's not there. Is your vet back? If he is, I would not wait a few more weeks to have fecals done on them, but get some in sooner to make sure there is not something going on that may have been missed, with us treating without any tests being run.

Karyn


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I read this thread but haven't followed your situation over time. For what it's worth, I tried to respond to some of the issues that you raised that may have not been directly addressed or maybe just a different thought on the topic.

Of the canker meds (Nitromidazoles), Metronidazole is very good and probably has had the most studies done on it as a medication. Ronidazole is well tolerated by birds. It's best to rotate canker meds in general and having two different canker meds on hand is probably a good idea. In your situation, w/vomiting birds, I would select Ronidazole over Spartrix (Carnidazole)
as birds will sometimes vomit w/Spartrix if not careful about pulling food and water the night before, though Spartrix is a very good canker med along w/the rest of the family. BTW, the Nitromidazoles are antibiotics that double as anti-trichinosis meds. So when you dosed the bird especially as one would an anti-biotic as opposed to single daily doses, you gave your bird an antibiotic as well as an anti-canker med.

For Nystatin, I don't recall ever seeing a single daily dose as it is a topical
medication as opposed to systemic. I think there is a link in the Resource section:

http://www.ivis.org/

If you join this group (say your a rehabber) there is a formulary in the library
there called Therapeutic Agents (from Clinical Avian Medicinethat is a pretty complete Avian Formulary. Print it out and you can reference it when needed, it also discusses symptoms.

Vomiting can be caused by worms, and it's best to stay away from Panacur.
I wonder what other worming meds you have available to you. Levamisole gets some good reports in an article from Dr. Chalmers, noting that it stimulates the immune system. When a bird has worms, sometimes it takes a while to get rid of them and they (or the eggs) may not show up in fecal floats. It can take a long time of building their systems up while doing the treatments over time to see a difference in a bird w/a severe infestation. The basic, more common causes for vomiting are canker, bacterial or viral infection, worms, and yeast.

Sulpha meds also treat coccidiosis as well as intestinal infections, so you've covered that base. Albon is noted as staying in the blood stream longer than the rest of the sulpha meds.

It's also true that nest sitting can produce some fairly
impressive droppings both visually and odor-wise. They do hold their droppings in as well, which may not be great for the bird right now. Also,
what if the eggs actually hatch to two sick parents? Seems like swapping out
for dummy eggs might be a good idea in a situation like this.

Baytril and Tetracyclines will all bind w/calcium and render the meds innefective.

One other thought, between rounds-not doses- of medicating, it's always a good idea to give the birds a rest and give water treated w/prebiotics and probiotics to help rebuild good flora. Lot's of meds can leave their systems very weak and vulnerable, ultimately open for other problems.I hope you are keeping written track of all the meds and at what dosage so that you can look back and see what meds the bird has had over time. I opened a new window for the 'single' post mode everytime you were talking about medicating your birds and was worried. 


Hopefully your vet is back and can help you sort all of this out. It's wonderful of you to bring these guys in and give them a home, they probably
don't know how much stress you are going through right now trying to make sure that they are healthy and comfortable in their new home.

fp


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I always replace the eggs with those who are not fertilized. I now have new pigeon (ne rescue) without tail and some feathers on one wing, no injury, but can't fly, I don't thin the wing is broken, could it be that he can't fly because of missing feathers??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

http://img205.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=220720101101.jpg


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, this bird seems to be missing all its flight feathers on the left side and tail feathers as well, so this is why it can not fly.

In a good amount of birds you find like this, they have been attacked by some predator, some of these predators carry a bacteria that can be fatal to the attacked bird (not right away) and I am strongly recommending that you place this little one on the Bactrim you have for 7 days, 0.30mL BID (twice a day) this drug is effective against the bacteria (pasturella) that could be present.

The feathers will grow back in time, I am thinking 6-8 weeks, perhaps a little sooner, and he then should be fine.

As a further precaution, we should ensure that there was not a reason he was able to be attacked/caught by a predator in the first place, such as some illness. Please check his mouth/throat for any cheesy growths, post photos of his droppings, the treatment with the Bactrim will have the added benefit of treating for a number of other infections that could cause him to be ill.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you. 
I'm going to give him Bactrim.

Yesterday I tried to catch a pigeon with a broken wing, but in the end he was able to fly to a window on the first floor, it was evening so he slept there. This morning he even managed to fly across the park to another window, how can this be possible if he has a broken wing??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> Thank you.
> I'm going to give him Bactrim.
> 
> Yesterday I tried to catch a pigeon with a broken wing, but in the end he was able to fly to a window on the first floor, it was evening so he slept there. This morning he even managed to fly across the park to another window, how can this be possible if he has a broken wing??


Could be a few things, one is that it is not broken, but is a soft tissue injury that is causing him to favor the wing, restricting flight. The second is there are two small bones, one in the wing called the radius, and one at the base of the wing called the coracoid, where if one of these where broken, there is the possibility a bird might be able to achieve short bursts of flight and not be completely grounded.

Keep trying, take a towel, or a small sheet, to help corned him and to throw over him.

Eternal, with your new bird, could you fully extend the wing, with the missing feathers, and examine it well to make sure there is no damage/injury to the wing and it's only missing feathers and have a look at his tail area to examine for same. Also, have a good look all for any wounds from the attack.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

New pigeon vomited, don't know when because I was sleeping, I suppose it was because of Bactrim. He didn't drink water at all, so I gave him 10 cc of re-hydration fluid. I checked, there are no injuries, just missing feather. I had seen him yesterday before I caught him, he was lying in the grass and sunbathing. 
The poop is bad, now I have to see can he digest food properly.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, do you have Baytril/Cipro on hand?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The pigeon with missing feathers was fine till yesterday. Now he is sick, which is strange because he was antibiotics 2 weeks ago (Bactrim). 

He stopped eating yesterday. I immediately put him on Bactrim, but he hasn't started to eat yet. Today I started him on Enrofloxacin (Baytril). Should I stop giving him Bactrim?

I gave him also metoclopramide, cisapride, metronidazole and vitamins. I keep him well hydrated, but I think he started to digest more poorly, so I might even had to take him to the vet so he can give him saline subq.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, if you started him on Baytril, I would stop the Bactrim. A visit to the vet might be a good idea, not only for some Sub-Q fluids, but it might be a very good idea to have your vet do a crop swab of him and run the appropriate tests to see if he has some sort of chronic yeast infection of his crop, I would really want to rule out yeast issues, in light of the extended courses of antibiotics he has been on. I know he may have been on Nystatin, but if it is a deeper infection the Nystatin only works on contact and there is a chance he then may need a systemic anti-fungal. If he can do a crop swab, he could also run a culture and sensitivity test for bacteria as well. I few years ago I had a bird that was not responding to Baytril or TMS (Bactrim), tests were run that showed a Klebsiella infection in the crop that was not sensitive to many antibiotics, including the Baytril and TMS mentioned, but was sensitive to Clindamycin as well as Chloramphenicol, so sometimes tests can be crucial in diagnosing puzzling cases.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you, Karyn. I stopped giving him Bactrim because it is contraindicated when giving Baytril, but he is isn't better and he's been on Baytril for 3 days now. Should I try with some other antibiotic and which one or should I wait a day or two?? I'm tube feeding him with A19, the poop doesn't smell, I'm also giving him a lot of fluids, cisapride, metoclopramide and metronidazole. I have furazolidone, and I hope I can get tomorrow maybe chloramphenicol, streptomycin, gentamycin, neomycin, lincomycin and spectomycin. What should I do?? All these antibiotics are contraindicated with Baytril!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 




When Threads get long like this, it becomes difficult to keep things fresh in one's mind, even if trying to review-scan it all from the beginning.


What is A19?




Could you review the original trouble? 

And, whatever noteworthy, has occured since?



Image of him?

Images of today's poops/urates?



What meds has he been on so far?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

This isn't one of my pigeons I rescued and kept as pets, it's the one I found maybe a month ago. He couldn't fly because of missing tail and wing feather (he was probably attacked by a cat or a dog), but without any injury. I put him on Bactrim the day I got him just in case, I thought maybe he was sick and because of that a cat/dog almost caught him. Everything was fine, and maybe a week ago, I'm really not sure, he stopped eating, and I immediately started him on Bactrim. There was no improvement so I started him on Baytril, but he hasn't gotten any better. I'm giving him metoclopramide and cisapride for digestion and metronidazole. A19 is a formula for hand feeding (link), it has more fat than A21 so he can get more energy. 

The poop is not good, there are bubbles, mucous. I will post pictures later. I think it's a hen. 

So, what should I do now?? Should I start him on some other antibiotic or wait. I would have to wait for the results of the crop swab at least one day.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal. with the bubbles in the droppings, I would most definitely get him tested for fugal issues, as not only will antibiotics not help with a fungal infection, some can make things worse. Please do not use any of the aminoglycosides on him (the -mycins', streptomycin, Gentamicin, neomycin and so on) they can be very hard on a birds internal organs. I would do the a crop and anal swab, and consider a change to Chloramphenicol 100mg/kg every 12hr(swabs should be done before any changes) continue with the Metronidazole and Metocloprimide and Cisapride. Please confirm the dosing (be precise) on all drugs he is currently on. Also, check to see if you can get Fluconazole if you needed to (note: Cisapride is counter-indicated to be given with Fluconazole).

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


My own occasions of Pigeons who were sick, and making 'Bubbley Poops'...I used 'Medistatin', and I do not recall any who did not clear up well.

This is a safe and easy Medicine to use.


What has his diet been?



Anyway, Candida or Yeast troubles are a common occurence of some Antibiotics...some are famous for it, but, many more can also invite it.




Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I started him on Nystatin, so we'll see. Yesterday I started giving him furazolidone and I still see no improvment. I stopped with metoclopramide and cisapride, he poops often.

Tomorrow I'm taking him to the vet for a crop swab and I will try and get fluconazole. 

What could this be???? He's on therapy for days and still nothing!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Could be a few things, this is were lab tests would be helpful. Please do at least to fecals and crop and cloacal swabs for culture and sensitivity. At what dose are you giving the Furazolidone. Please be careful about starting or changing to other meds before tests are done, as this may interfere with their accuracy.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I found that the correct dose for furazolidone is 12.5 per day. right?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I found that the correct dose for furazolidone is 12.5 per day. right?


Dose is 15-20mg/kg PO QD (by mouth, once a day), so at high end of range a 300 gram bird would get 6mg once a day, 12.5mg would be correct if your bird weighed 625 grams.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

the pigeon has PMV, he started showing neurological symptoms, he had several attacks (he starts turning around his head, he falls and claps his wings, he can't walk), and after that he regains control over his body but not completely. 

What should I do?? He's getting vitamins, Chevita Adenosan, which has immunoglobulins. I started him on chloramphenicol in case it's neurological form of salmonella. During these attacks I hold him in my lap because I can see that he gets scared, he breathes heavily and he has this look.... 

Now I'm scared what will happen to my pigeons, maybe I carried the virus on my feet (this pigeon is in my bedroom, the others don't come in here). Now I'm sick worried what will happen to my other pigeons, I really endanger them by taking in sick ones.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I would expect PPMV to have manifested a long time ago if he was infected but pre-symptomatic when you got him...

You have had him for two full months now..?


If he has it, I would have to think he caught it recently, somehow.


How is his appetite?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I've had him for a month and a half. the only possible explanation is that he caught it while he was standing on the window. 

I have to feed him with the formula, he won't eat, but he threw up a couple of days ago and I saw several seeds. 

What should I do now?? I read somewhere that calcium can help.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 


It can get confusing when a Thread ends up having different Pigeons being discussed in it.


Maybe...start a new Thread just for this particular Bird?


Review their history so far...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

As Phil said, the timing is odd to be PMV at this point, not out of the question, but perhaps Paratyphoid. I myself would make a change of meds to Baytril (Enrofloxacin, 20mg/kg, once a day) and continue to support him, keep the meals smaller and more often, allow his crop to empty between meals. If it is PMV the support will help him make it through the worst parts of the illness and if it is Paratyphoid, the Baytril will help to treat the infection. I know there are different opinions about administering antibiotics to birds with PMV, but because of the way this has presented and with no attributable source, in IMHO, it may be best to err on the cautious side in treating, as it may be Paratyphoid.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am having trouble understanding what Bird this is.

This Thread began July 4th, concerning a Bird eternal had had since the previous Autumn.


It is very difficult to have to go back and try reading through many many pages to sort out.

At least for me..!


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I've already written his story here:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=501076&postcount=101

Karyn, he was on Baytril but since there was no improvement in his condition, I replaced it with Furazolidon. He is on Chloramphenicol now (since today), should I switch back to Baytril or continue with Chloramphenicol??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I've already written his story here:
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=501076&postcount=101
> 
> Karyn, he was on Baytril but since there was no improvement in his condition, I replaced it with Furazolidon. He is on Chloramphenicol now (since today), should I switch back to Baytril or continue with Chloramphenicol??


Eternal, quite a while ago, a quite well know avian vet, who specialized in pigeons, made mention to me when I told him I had a bird on Chloramphenicol that was suffering an as yet unidentified illness, that it really was an excellent drug and that many bacteria are sensitive to it. I just got through refreshing myself on drug and its use against salmonella and indeed salmonella is sensitive to it and it does cross the blood-brain barrier. So on reflection, and your reminder this bird has already been on Baytril, I think since you already have started this bird Chloramphenicol, that we try an empiric course of treatment with the drug and monitor the bird for any positive change in condition. A reminder to follow the dosing instructions I gave you for this med, 100mg/kg twice a day, as Chloramphenicol has to be given at fairly high dose rates, as a pigeon's GI tract does reduce its effectiveness. 

Also, Feefo, who has a great deal of experience with PMV, has reported, anecdotally, that calcium is sometimes helpful with PMV birds in alleviating their symptoms.

Just make sure you practice good hygiene habits, lots of washing of hands and being very careful with dishes etc.., with the bird I mentioned above I actually used a lab coat and changed shoes whenever I handled her, then used Purell (a hand sanitizer), before even going to wash my hands. I mention this as a caution to take the extra steps, as we really don't know what we are dealing with, if you touch the bird, cage, change cage lining, dishes, towels (if using towels, right into a 1:9 bleach solution, 1 part bleach 9 parts water before washing),....anything.... Purell then wash hands, before moving on.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dobato, 


What Mail Order Suppliers carry "Chloramphenicol"?


Does it have any reputation for promoting Candida?



Is it safer for the very young, than Baytril? ( for suspected Salmonella/Paratyphoid ).
Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He threw up, maybe becase chloramphenicol is really bitter. I read somewhere that chloramphenicol should be given 4x, not 2x, I have to check it and get back to you. I think I read it in pharmacology book from the faculty of veterinary medicine.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here's some information about the drug you are using. My veterinarian did prescribe it for birds until it was banned, here in the United Stated, several years ago. 

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_chloramphenicol.html


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Dobato,
> 
> What Mail Order Suppliers carry "Chloramphenicol"?
> 
> ...


Phil, Charis has posted a link with some good information on Chloramphenicol and she is right that it has been banned in the US, EU and Canada for human use and in food producing animals since the mid 90s' (but an application can be made to use it as a last resort medicine in humans, plus it is still prescribed for human use in many developing countries). It is still labeled as a veterinary drug and it can be prescribed for animals that are not going to end up in the food chain. The Chloramphenicol have was compounded by my vet, but Chevita does sell it http://www.chevita.com/en/products/chloramphenicol-N.php and it is available from http://www.columbomed.com/en/products/product.php?product_id=19 , as an alternative to your vet, and you'd like to keep some on hand, you could inquire if the ship to the US. Also, if your vet does not stock it and is willing to write you a prescription, you can purchase some here: http://www.rrvp.com/butleranimalhealthsupply/chloramphenicol1gmtabs.htm?moreinfo.

Phil, no references that I have read about promoting Candida/yeast issues, in the link Charis provided there are cautions about use in young animals, pregnant and lactating ones as well, but the pharmacokinetics are different in birds, than many other animals, so I am not sure if the cautions are applicable, but I would follow the same guidelines as Baytril and try not to use it in birds below 3 weeks old. The other notations are to exercise caution in animals with liver or renal impairment and that it can cause temporary infertility in male pigeons.

Eternal, I myself don't find that Chloramphenicol is as bitter as a number of other antibiotics, so this may not necessarily be the reason he thew up. The dosing I gave you was prescribed by my vet for a pigeon, so when you are looking around make sure the dose you are looking at is pigeon specific.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Karyn!



Sounds like a very useful one for some occasions.



eternal,

I would like to be able to offer occasional constructive input for your present Bird issues, but without being brought up to speed on the Bird's history and details of present symptoms, I am lost.


One small paragraph from Aug 26th is not any help to me as for what all has gone on, what meds, and what is going on now...images of the Bird, poops, diet, etc.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I tasted it, it's really, really bitter, much more than Baytril. I have Chevita Chloramophenicol-n. 

This is definately Salmonella, today he is able to stand up, but he can't walk normally, he is not stable on his legs. 

I'm continuing with chloramphenicol, but for how long?? Chevita's treatment plan for salmonellosis says 5 days, then 2 days nothing, and then again 5 days. 

Phil, the seeds aren't the problem, if he picked something, he picked it when he was in the wild. We're talking about a feral. 

He was on Bactrim for 3 days - no improvement, and he was also on Bactrim for 10 days when I got him. He was on Baytril for 6 days, also without improvement, then on furazolidone for 5 days. He is on chloraphenicol since yesterday. 
I also gave him metronidazole for maybe 7 days, and I'm still giving him cisapride and metoclopramide because without these medicines he wouldn't be able to digest. I've been hand feeding him for 15 days now.

I've been also giving him Adenosan (http://www.chevita.com/en/products/adenosan.php).


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He is so thin


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What were the original symptoms with this Pigeon? When you first got them?

What was his weight then? Was he eating?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I would follow Chivita's instructions on the use of their Chloramphenicol-N, as I am sure they know how it best works. When you mix up this little guys feeding formula, you can add a bit of fresh olive oil to it (.5mL oil to 10mL of formula) this will add a significant boost in calories to his meals, keep the meals smaller, 7-10mL, and feed him as often as his crop empties to start to get some weight back on him. 

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Good news. The pigeon is alive and he started eating, but should I give him the seeds or should I continue hand feeding him a few days more???

He is still not completely stable, but I caught him standing on one leg.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, for a few days before moving a really sick bird back to seeds, I will provide it with pellets like these: http://www.petco.com/product/12570/...ferralID=52f2f2b5-aec1-11df-bb45-001b2166bec9 , as they break down fast with contact with water and are easy to digest, don't know if they have them in your area, a few companies make them, they have to be the small size. I would continue to hand feed for a number of days yet, as you will be able to get his weight up quicker doing this, plus he may not quite be ready to place on him the responsibility to self-feeding to live just yet. 

However, I would give him a few 1/2 teaspoon amounts of very small seeds, a few times a day, spread around, to allow him to peck and eat, I find doing this is good for their general morale and well being. If things go well, I would then start to provide him with a seed dish with small seeds, them larger seeds in a few more days if thing are still going well. I would continue to supplement his own self-feeding until he was over 300 grams, you can do this, if he is eating well on his own during the day, by giving a feeding of 15mL of formula late night, just before bed.

Sounds like he is heading back in the right direction, please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The pigeon is alive, eating normally although I continued to hand feed him. I'm only worried because his urates are clear, not white, and there is a lot of water in the poop. Does this mean that his kidneys suffered some damage??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

When they are sick and on hand-feeding formula, I have found myself that it appears at times that the white urate part of their droppings is greatly reduced. This, I believe, is mostly from the dilution from the kidneys passing the large water content in formula on top of what they are drinking and will return to normal once by their illness and their regular self-feeding routine returns. I want to mention many times a sick bird will have a few issues (co-infections) at once, so there is a chance part of the problem with the droppings could be caused by cocci or worms, thats why, whenever possible, it's good to run a fecal test to help with getting a better idea of the full range of issues a bird my be dealing with.

When he gets to 300+ grams, I would stop the hand-feeding, but continue to weigh him each day to make sure he does not backslide too much, after you stop he will fall back a bit, but this should stabilize and he then should continue to gain weight. Within a few days of stopping the hand feeding, you should be better able to get an idea on his droppings. It would also be a good idea, once he is finished his course of anti-biotics to either include some probiotics in his formula or place a drop or two of fresh olive oil on his seeds, stir in, and then sprinkle a bit of probiotics on them and stir in again, or you could include a bit of Kefir in his formula as an alternative.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The pigeon is better, eats normally, poops. Thank you for all your help. 

And I have one more question. My other pigeon that I got when he was just a baby, he was on enrofloxacin (the vet told me to put him on Baytril) and I read that it can cause cartilage damage. I've noticed that he is smaller than the other two. Is he going to have problems in the future? Can I give him glucosamine and chondroitin?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, glad to hear this little guy has greatly improved. I don't know about using glucosamine and chondroitin in pigeons, they are some references I saw for other animals, but no real ones for pigeons, so if it where me, I would not use it. With the Baytril (Enrofloxacin) the studies I have looked at before where there was an impact on on cartilage, the dose given in the studies were very high, so there is a chance, if the Baytril was given at correct doses for weight, that it could be a vitamin or mineral deficiency. I would supplement with some calcium and give a multi-vitamin, made for birds, and see if this makes a difference with him.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you Karyn. Yesterday I finally caught the pigeon had talked talking about before, the one with a broken wing. Tomorrow we're going to the vet to take an x ray of the wing and to see if an operation is a option. He's had this facture for more than a month I think, what will happen if it healed this way?

Here's the topic 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-a-borken-wing-47151.html


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I treated him with chloramphenicol for 10 days, does he remain silent carrier?? 
I put him together with another pigeon, what should I do now if he still carries salmonella??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, Chloramphenicol belongs to a group of antibiotics that are considered bacteriostatic, meaning that these meds stop the growth of sensitive bacteria to allow the body's own immune system to eliminate the infection, so this means that these drugs do not directly kill bacteria. There are other groups of antibiotics that are bactericidal, there are a good number of these also, and Enrofloxacin (Baytril) and others from the fluoroquinolone group, are bactericidal antibiotics that directly kill bacteria. In all the reading I have done I have only seen direct mention that Baytril (Enrofloxacin) will clear a bird of a carrier (latent) paratyphoid infection. 

So, since the Chloramphenicol only stopped the growth of the bacteria, there is a chance that the infection has been suppressed to the point the bird's own immune system is now able to keep it in check, so there is the possibility that this bird could still harbor the bacteria (this caution, IMHO, would apply to any other antibiotic that was not a fluoroquinolone, from either of the bacteriostatic group or the bactericidal group of antibiotics). If you want this bird to mix with other birds, to be safe, I would give him a 2-3 day break from meds, give him some probiotics/and/or Kefir during this time and then treat him for 14 days on Baytril at 20mg/kg, once a day to follow the protocol that has been established to eliminate latent salmonella from a pigeon's system (following with probiotics/Kefir again).

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The problem is that he was on Baytril for almost 10 days and it didn't cure him of salmonella, only chloramphenicol did. So now I'm not sure that even Baytril will eliminate the bacteria. 

I have new pigeon, I picked him up yesterday, very young and sick, I put him on chloraphenicol immediately, gave him sub q liquids because he was severely dehydrated and he started eating today, no I have six pigeons, 3 of them are my pets, Gallina is the one that had salmonella, then the one with a broken wing (we're going for an x ray tomorrow) and finally the very young one, so it's hard to keep them all separated.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, the possibility has to be looked at, since no lab work was ever done to establish a diagnosis of salmonella, that this bird could be infected with bacteria other than salmonella and this is the reason he responded to the Chloramphenicol and not the Baytril, for as I mentioned before, Chloramphenicol has much larger range of bacteria that are sensitive to it than does Baytril.

Since you are going to the vet, this would be a very good time to speak to him about this issue and see what his suggestions are for establishing a firm diagnosis for an infecting pathogen.

Karyn


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## szabo (Sep 23, 2010)

This post is moved to its own thread, here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=47326

John


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## dialga07 (Sep 30, 2010)

Moved to own thread in General Discussions

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=47470

(Questions about a different bird should be asked in a *new thread*)


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