# What can we do about PETA?



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I know we are all frustrated about this organization and wish we could do something to expose their hypocritical ways.

At the link below, there is a very thorough column exposing PETA for what they truly stand for. It mentions many things we have already read here. I wouldn't call this column 'balanced' journalism, as it is written by someone with an agenda on the flip side of what PETA believes. But that it DOES appear on one of the largest online news websites out there - Huffington Post - lends it a significant amount of credibility. That means that hundreds of thousands - perhaps even millions of people will read it.

A warning, though, the photos accompanying the article are not for the tender-hearted and are sure to inflame emotions (which is of course the author's intent).

If you feel like you want to take some action, I would recommend harnessing the power of social media and your email list and share this article. Facebook, Twitter, GooglePlus, etc. Share it with your friends and ask them to share it, too. Social media is a very, very powerful mechanism to share information and points of view. It's something that people with common beliefs can use to have real impact without have million-dollar advertising or lawyering budgets.

The story is here:

http://huff.to/10nc2mG

Excerpt:



> These pictures reveal the truth about PETA, a reality that is deeply at odds with the public's perception of that organization as a radical animal rights group. In practice, PETA is the functional equivalent of a slaughterhouse, while their efforts to undermine the lifesaving work of animal lovers throughout the country continually derail urgently needed reforms that would further the rights of our nation's homeless dogs and cats.
> 
> By defending regressive and cruel shelters and sheltering policies that mandate killing, by calling for the death of certain groups of animals entering shelters and by injecting thousands of animals with a fatal dose of poison every year, these actions are not only inconsistent with the mission of an animal rights organization, they are the antithesis of one. Only one question remains: Why is anyone still donating to PETA?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Let them self destruct.


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## ozarkbill (Aug 17, 2008)

*Peta*

The problem I have is that I suspect some of what they say about us may be correct. If any kind of racing had a record of a big percentage of the animals raced being either killed or injured it could not stand the public outcry. Look at horse and dog racing when animals need to be destroyed for example. The Iditarod sled dog races have a big problem when a dog dies for example.
Maybe we need more pro active examples of what we are doing right rather than just wanting to strike back.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

ozarkbill said:


> The problem I have is that I suspect some of what they say about us may be correct. If any kind of racing had a record of a big percentage of the animals raced being either killed or injured it could not stand the public outcry. Look at horse and dog racing when animals need to be destroyed for example. The Iditarod sled dog races have a big problem when a dog dies for example.
> Maybe we need more pro active examples of what we are doing right rather than just wanting to strike back.


When birds are raced They are out in nature under the rule of NATURE. No person has any control Or way of keeping them safe on the flight home. But when both sides are calling the KETTLE black Then who is right. Nature started with just ONE the rock dove AND man kept and cultivated what now over 250 breeds of pigeons now No easy thing. After the racing pigeon attack. Then Show pigeons will be attacked. The idea is to stop all keeping of pigeons. Dogs Cats ECT. And for people to not eat meat. Its the hidden agenda that is a threat


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## ozarkbill (Aug 17, 2008)

*agree*

I agree with you. However throwing dirt at each other just gets us all dirty.
Why not show how we keep them healthy and trained and do all we can to not have accidents, in other words being pro-active. If an effort was made all local papers are looking for human interest stories, help them out with an article with pics of a cute kid holding his pigeon, sponsor a showing at schools with a few birds and let the kids let them go to fly home, etc.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's horrible that so many animals are killed each year, but why do you blame PETA for something that pet owners are responsible for? There are just too many homeless animals out there to find homes for. And more everyday. Irresponsible owners is where it starts. If people would take responsibility for their pets, then there wouldn't be homeless animals with no where to go. There are just too many, and thousands more every day. There are not enough homes to go around. And as far as feral cats, most are better off dead. At least then they don't have to suffer and starve, and freeze in the winter, and no one to take them to the vet when they are sick. It's a horrible life.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

ozarkbill said:


> I agree with you. However throwing dirt at each other just gets us all dirty.
> Why not show how we keep them healthy and trained and do all we can to not have accidents, in other words being pro-active. If an effort was made all local papers are looking for human interest stories, help them out with an article with pics of a cute kid holding his pigeon, sponsor a showing at schools with a few birds and let the kids let them go to fly home, etc.


This gets done on a level each year. Some people like pigeons others do not. And it getting harder to be able to raise pigeons As for city laws neighborhood assocations. ECT. AND yes we can not throw rocks at each other. As someone will get hit. But we can not keep standing by and let one side throw all the rocks. Has to be some balance.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think society should take a hard look at itself. We are a throw away society. Animals fit into this. I used to deliver diesel fuel in colorado to the animal shelter. It was used to burn remains of animals that were put to sleep. In my 8 years of pigeons, I have only put two birds down that were badly injured. One by my dog. There has been and I am sure still is in the sport elimination of birds due to performance, "culling". I am coming to the conclusion that every other person is rotten. They are in every walk of life, every sport, etc. there is guys in my club that breed 150 birds. Why? We have a 30 bird club limit. So my thoughts are that half of PETA is doing the right thing, the other half the wrong. Same with pigeon fanciers.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

We do not get anywhere when we talk about This. Peta will do what they do. And everyone else will do what they do. Right or wrong I still find man trys And thinks they are doing right. After all we are just HUMAN.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

re lee said:


> *When birds are raced They are out in nature under the rule of NATURE. No person has any control Or way of keeping them safe on the flight home.* But when both sides are calling the KETTLE black Then who is right. Nature started with just ONE the rock dove AND man kept and cultivated what now over 250 breeds of pigeons now No easy thing. After the racing pigeon attack. Then Show pigeons will be attacked. The idea is to stop all keeping of pigeons. Dogs Cats ECT. And for people to not eat meat. Its the hidden agenda that is a threat




that is a wee bit of a cope out IMO, I race and loose birds but I am a realist, We domestic them and then throw them out into nature hundreds of miles from home. That's not natures rule, that's us taking something out of nature, and making our own rules on how to use them for entertainment. 
You are clearly a smart man but I think you need to rethink that first statement.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Once the birds physically leave the boxes, they are no longer under your control. As re_lee stated, Nature then takes over. You do not control their destiny any longer until, and if, they make it home. It is Nature that gave them they homing instincts, not you. You provide the training to have them home to your loft, but Nature does the rest. IMO


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree they are out in nature, But us domesticating them does not give them the skills they need to be "under the rule of nature" 

My point is anyone that races pigeons and cannot admit they are putting the birds in some level of danger are deluded. Its fact, birds will get lost and die. A fact I can live with as I do all I can to minimise these losses..

Nature intended their homing instinct to be used to get home from food sources, Not to be dumped hundreds of miles from home.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Can you agree that, once gone from your control, that it is Nature that has more control over their return to you, then you do. BOP, storms, injuries, illness, can all play a role in whether your birds return. These are all part of Nature. Which is the point that i believe re_lee was trying to make. I don't feel that it's a cope out, or that he needs to rethink his first statement. What he says is a truthful interpretation of the facts after birds are released.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree they are out in nature, But us domesticating them does not give them the skills they need to be "under the rule of nature"
> 
> My point is anyone that races pigeons and cannot admit they are putting the birds in some level of danger are deluded. Its fact, birds will get lost and die. A fact I can live with as I do all I can to minimise these losses..
> 
> Nature intended their homing instinct to be used to get home from food sources, Not to be dumped hundreds of miles from home.


They face the same dangers just loft flying. The only true protection is keeping them locked down And then they would never be raced. or even let out to loft fly. Just think of the feral birds Many are lucky to live THREE years. They are faced with threats daily. The have to hunt for food Drink unclean water But they suvive as they can. That is what happens to pigeons in the race they have to get home the best they can. Or if lost they become that feral bird. BUT a person would be surprised Knowing how many have trapped into some one loft AND the person never contacts the owner. Happens every race. Nature is not kind But it is nature where life is much different. I never said pigeon racing was a piece of cake for the birds. But I do not think it is deadly cruel either. As life is cruel even for man kind


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

almondman said:


> Can you agree that, once gone from your control, that it is Nature that has more control over their return to you, then you do. BOP, storms, injuries, illness, can all play a role in whether your birds return. These are all part of Nature. Which is the point that i believe re_lee was trying to make. I don't feel that it's a cope out, or that he needs to rethink his first statement. What he says is a truthful interpretation of the facts after birds are released.


Of course I can agree nature takes control, and has more control than me. My point is we have taken away from them the necessary skills to take nature on. And in no way can we justify losses by stating, Nature took control, We throw them in mother natures path even after taking them out of nature in the first place.

I am just saying, We cannot put birds getting lost during racing down to nature. Its the racing that throws them out there in harms way, Not nature.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

My high flyers fly around 6-8 hours on an average in a single flight a day without being raced, if they fly with an average of 40 miles per hour it means in 6 hours they can easily fly 240 miles, that is how they are built and born

So when they are released in a race they are doing what they are supposed to do, get home. There is nothing unnatural about it, they will do it on daily basis if you race them or if you don’t race them except the weather conditions and BOP, you can’t help it either because it’s present their all the time even if they are on their daily routine flight


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

nz pigeon is right let them self destuct. they ll hang themselves, its sad that the public still reads there crap and listens to them spew a yarn off bs. I WILL FIND A WAY TO FLY MY BIRDS FREELY AROUND GODS GREEN EARTH the way he made them, if they come home i ll keep setting them free. i will race them and i will always love them even if they dont get home, stories of birds walking home you know they love us as well.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> It's horrible that so many animals are killed each year, but why do you blame PETA for something that pet owners are responsible for? There are just too many homeless animals out there to find homes for. And more everyday. Irresponsible owners is where it starts. If people would take responsibility for their pets, then there wouldn't be homeless animals with no where to go. There are just too many, and thousands more every day. There are not enough homes to go around. And as far as feral cats, most are better off dead. At least then they don't have to suffer and starve, and freeze in the winter, and no one to take them to the vet when they are sick. It's a horrible life.


TO say THE FERAL CATS ARE BETTER OFF DEAD is cruel. What about all the feral pigeons Are they better off dead. Or the deer or the song birds ECT. some group are catching feral cats and fixing them so they will not produce THEN RELEASE them agin. That is doing something that helps in a way. Or the rehabers that take in birds and animals and try to heal them and release them back to nature. They to are doing something . But to just kill because as you said they are better off dead Needs to be looked at.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

There is an unnatural factor to it, The one that involves them being put in trucks, and driven 800 miles. I agree, They can do it, And most do it with ease but the point is. 

A pigeon in nature, Will fly to a food source, Remember their way home and then remember their way back to the food source the next day, That is what nature gave them their homing instinct for, Nature did not give them a homing instinct for our benefit or entertainment. 


Pigeons being put in hampers, driven away and let go is unnatural, No one can possible dispute that. And if they can I want them to provide me proof of an occasion, Nature ( with no help of man ) took some pigeons 500 miles up a country and let them go expecting them to fly home, If someone can provide me with that case I will agree there is nothing unnatural about racing. Until then, I am sticking to my guns on this one.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

re lee said:


> TO say THE FERAL CATS ARE BETTER OFF DEAD is cruel. What about all the feral pigeons Are they better off dead. Or the deer or the song birds ECT. some group are catching feral cats and fixing them so they will not produce THEN RELEASE them agin. That is doing something that helps in a way. Or the rehabers that take in birds and animals and try to heal them and release them back to nature. They to are doing something . But to just kill because as you said they are better off dead Needs to be looked at.


I think its a figure of speech. I am sure from reading Jay3s previous posts that they are a kind compassionate person and would do all they can for animals.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree they are out in nature, But us domesticating them does not give them the skills they need to be "under the rule of nature"
> 
> My point is anyone that races pigeons and cannot admit they are putting the birds in some level of danger are deluded. Its fact, birds will get lost and die. A fact I can live with as I do all I can to minimise these losses..
> 
> Nature intended their homing instinct to be used to get home from food sources, Not to be dumped hundreds of miles from home.


*NZ you are partially right*, birds like the rock doves used their navigation skills over short distances and were also gifted with speed, a lot of it.

However even before man began breeding the birds for longer distances. Nature bred this ability into them, I.E. the passenger pigeon. Which migrated over vast distances of 1000-1500 miles anually. 

The original long distance birds in the USA were in many cases crossed onto the passenger pigeons. They took on for the most part the looks of the more modern and faster speed birds that came from Europe, but they gifted these birds with their ability to navigate over long distances. As time passed the Passenger pigeons were wiped out and the few remaining distance bloodlines of long distance birds are poor subsitutes for their ancestors. 

Now as to what you said about releasing our racers in the wild on races. A *properly trained and healthy racing pigeon* will unless it becomes injured or gets killed on its way home give its all to return to its home loft. 

Yes we take advantage of what nature gave them and try our best to breed for these abilities. But I know I've bred birds that went wild right off of my home loft let alone during a race. Those pairings were never put back together. I would be surprized if we all havent had this happen at one time or another.

How many baby pigeons do you really think survive to adult hood in the wild? I suspect its far fewer than you realize. For the same predators that go after our racing pigeons also prey upon the wild cousins of our birds. 

*It is my belief that our birds actually have the advantage in that they have been bred for speed and stamina and a healthy racing pigeon will out fly most hawks even when tired. Falcons on the other hands few birds can out distance even in a dive. 

But remember what I said a healthy and properly trained pigeon is the key to winning any race and getting most if not all your birds home in race time. If you send sick birds they will quickly fall prey to the elements and or predators as they try to get home. *


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree Lawman, with all you have said, I agree nature gave them the skills, But we exploit this for our benefit which does lead to some birds being killed or injured. Again, I race birds so I am not having a go but what makes me really angry is others that race or have raced trying to make excuses for birds getting injured. There is no excuse.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NZ Pigeon said:


> There is an unnatural factor to it, The one that involves them being put in trucks, and driven 800 miles. I agree, They can do it, And most do it with ease but the point is.
> 
> A pigeon in nature, Will fly to a food source, Remember their way home and then remember their way back to the food source the next day, That is what nature gave them their homing instinct for, Nature did not give them a homing instinct for our benefit or entertainment.
> 
> ...


OK stepping away from pigeons to many types of birds THEY migrate 2 times a year flying THOUSANDS of miles in flocks from the hundreds to thousands. Not alot different then a race. because they fly a good distance. If you have not noticed even race birds sit down to get a drink often on a race. They set down a eat ECT. they do know a little about surviving. YES race are taken to a release BUT they were bred to do this. Man crossed bred the birds produced better and faster homing pigeons And selected them for this. Just as a race horse was bred to be raced. Or a show bird was bred to that standard for shows. BUt in the air NATURE has all control. So getting REAL we all know nature did not take them down the road. But nature was there when they hit the sky. We can never control nature So when nature takes over we can not complain. I am not protecting racing But am not saying it is bad either. If so then You are doing a bad thing to your birds You better stop I am saying man bred these bird for racing and for over a 100 years they have done rather well. Sure some are lost some become food for hawks and such. Some are lost because of Man made hazards. But so are the all the WILD type birds including HAWKS. nature is rather mean it is live or die. Even the plants have to fight to live in nature


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree Lawman, with all you have said, I agree nature gave them the skills, But we exploit this for our benefit which does lead to some birds being killed or injured. Again, I race birds so I am not having a go but what makes me really angry is others that race or have raced trying to make excuses for birds getting injured. There is no excuse.


NZ as Re Lee said in her post and as I mentioned as we can do is make certain they are healthy and well trained. Once they are release (no matter the distance) they are at the mercy of nature the same as all of the wild birds and other animals in general. 

There is absolutely no way to ensure that all birds will return home from a simple one mile training toss, a 100 mile race or a 600 mile race. As mother nature does not compromise, you ether succeed or you perish. You are ether the strongest and fastest or a predator will take you out. 

I dont know about down under? but I do know in California we have had a huge upswing in hawks and falcons. In part because they are protected, in part I believe because they have migrated to the areas that our birds pass through. (there is another thread on hawks and such). Like it or not our birds occasionally become part of the food supply.

This doesnt even begin to cover the increase in cell phone towers, earth quake activity, sun spots and fluctuations in the magnetic poles. all of which take its toll on our birds ability to get home safely. (if you care to look it up there have been threads on each of these subjects, have fun reading).

The point is our societies have gotten bigger and more technologically advanced, these advances in many ways make it more difficult for our birds to migrate back home on race day. 

Notice I said more difficult not impossible. Yes some years because of all of these factors and more we have losses higher than in other years. But as mother nature singles out some to survive and others to perish. we are left with birds who are able to navigate home and these breed the next generation of birds. each generation hopefully becomes better at passing through the obsticles and we have less and less losses until a new obsticle appeares and the process starts all over again.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Once again, All you say is true and I envy your articulation - seriously, But I stand by one thing, Racing birds is unnatural, as in, Its not what nature intended for them.

Here in NZ, We have the occasional NZ falcon around and they will take out the occasional pigeon in flight but Harrier hawks which are common don't stand a chance, They prefer road kill, Carrion is the technical term I believe.

I love racing birds, And have had same day birds from all club tosses and races with only one loss settling and one on an early toss I did, So I am satisfied with that, Admittedly I only went out to 270km which is nothing, But I am learning and don't want to send the birds to a 500km station with the knowledge I may not have done all I can to get them in condition, I have learnt heaps over the last 6 months and believe my birds are in good condition and would make it home, But. I will let them moult in their flights and challenge them in the OB season this year. I see this as giving them the best chance while taking the time to learn some tricks myself. The birds come first IMO.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

The thread was about "what can we do about PETA", which i can see is going in very different direction, now discussions like this will not do any good for the pigeon keepers if we try to get angry after hearing other views or try to enforce our view on others


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

re lee said:


> OK stepping away from pigeons to many types of birds THEY migrate 2 times a year flying THOUSANDS of miles in flocks from the hundreds to thousands. Not alot different then a race. because they fly a good distance. If you have not noticed even race birds sit down to get a drink often on a race. They set down a eat ECT. they do know a little about surviving. YES race are taken to a release BUT they were bred to do this. Man crossed bred the birds produced better and faster homing pigeons And selected them for this. Just as a race horse was bred to be raced. Or a show bird was bred to that standard for shows. BUt in the air NATURE has all control. So getting REAL we all know nature did not take them down the road. But nature was there when they hit the sky. We can never control nature So when nature takes over we can not complain. I am not protecting racing But am not saying it is bad either. If so then You are doing a bad thing to your birds You better stop I am saying man bred these bird for racing and for over a 100 years they have done rather well. Sure some are lost some become food for hawks and such. Some are lost because of Man made hazards. But so are the all the WILD type birds including HAWKS. nature is rather mean it is live or die. Even the plants have to fight to live in nature


I agree, Birds that migrate fly thousands of miles, But they are not put in man made machines ( cars ) and thrown out, hundreds of miles from home.


What they do is natural, What we do to pigeons is not.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Pijlover said:


> The thread was about "what can we do about PETA", which i can see is going in very different direction, now discussions like this will not do any good for the pigeon keepers if we try to get angry after hearing other views or try to enforce our view on others


I am not angry, I am enjoying the debate. My only point is racing of pigeons is not what nature intended for the bird, Its a man made sport, That makes in unnatural. 

Can anyone dispute that, Really?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I think that throughout man's domination over the animal world we have strived to make use of all the "skills" that nature has given to individual species. All dogs have descended from the wolf family. All pigeons from the rock pigeon. Man has just channeled the best of what nature has already instilled in the different species. As mentioned, all pigeons will almost always try to get "home". In the wild, birds can get blown hundreds, even thousands, of miles during a tornado or hurricane, both domestic and wild, and many still will find their way back. The actual release during a race may not be natural, but after that, it all boils down to the natural abilities of a given species. Man may have heightened these abilities in homers far more than in fantails, but even fantails will try to get back home, mostly unsuccessfully, but they still will try.

And guys, it's getting late for an old codger like me. So this is my last post here, at least for the night. I have also enjoyed the debate.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I am not angry, I am enjoying the debate. My only point is racing of pigeons is not what nature intended for the bird, Its a man made sport, That makes in unnatural.
> 
> Can anyone dispute that, Really?


NZ I'm not a big quoter of the bible, or any other holly book. I've studied many of them and they are all have similar texts (altho worded in different ways) that say all of the animals be they the beasts of burden or the fowls of the air were placed here for our use. Now with that comes the burden of being good care takers of what we have been given. Have we as members of the human race made mistakes, YUP. Can we do better, Absolutely!

So with that said are we not just helping to jump start or probibly more correctly stated just speeding up mother nature by racing our birds. their ability to navigate and or circumvent various parts of the globe at faster and faster speeds. If left to mother nature alone would this not take thousands if not millions of years to complete, if it was ever completed at all.

Our feathered friends (pigeons) have played major roles in our human history during both world wars, heck you can follow their history going all the way back to NOAH himself. 

Depending upon whom you talk to they are ascending angels to heaven (white dove releases) to racing/homing pigeons, to the scum of everyday life in the inner cities. perhaps they are all of these things, but one thing is certain. Its fun to watch our birds diving for home from a race and heart breaking when they don't make it home (whatever the reason).

Once they are released from the transport vehicles, they determine their own fates. Will they go wild as PETA and groups like them would have them all be. Or will they head for home at their best pace, weather the ever present hazards and dive down to their home loft and their mates. Thats the immortal question isnt it.

*As for PETA and other groups like them, *unfortunately we now have to keep an eye out for those who sypathise with them. They are not our friends and when proof of just how cruel their methods are come to light. We must for the sake of our sport pass on that proof to our members and to the public at large. Hopefully we can find reporters willing to provide that proof. So that these groups are shown for what they really are. They are not animal lovers in most cases but in fact nut jobs that take money to line their own pockets and promote their beliefs upon everyone else!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

almondman said:


> I think that throughout man's domination over the animal world we have strived to make use of all the "skills" that nature has given to individual species. All dogs have descended from the wolf family. All pigeons from the rock pigeon. Man has just channeled the best of what nature has already instilled in the different species. As mentioned, all pigeons will almost always try to get "home". In the wild, birds can get blown hundreds, even thousands, of miles during a tornado or hurricane, both domestic and wild, and many still will find their way back. The actual release during a race may not be natural, but after that, it all boils down to the natural abilities of a given species. Man may have heightened these abilities in homers far more than in fantails, but even fantails will try to get back home, mostly unsuccessfully, but they still will try.
> 
> And guys, it's getting late for an old codger like me. So this is my last post here, at least for the night. I have also enjoyed the debate.


I also agree, I think maybe I misinterpreted Re Lee's post, but a later post from a member stated there is nothing unnatural about racing pigeons, All I was stating is it is unnatural, But the skills and ability they have been given are of course natural, Or instinct, whichever way you want to look at it, I love racing pigeons and I believe the birds enjoy most of it too so that's the main thing here, I am not taking PETA's side but I want racers to be responsible for the life's they hold in their hands and also realistic about the risk involved to the birds.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

The discussion is good . . . 

But back to the main point - what can we do? My original post was a suggestion to educate our friends and anyone else we can reach about how this organization operates so that donations will dry up. There are many alternative charities that support animal welfare without being hypocritical or extremist or absolutist or . . .

I'm just saying people need to be educated and do their research before donating and this article on HuffPo is a good one to share. That's one simple and easy thing we can do.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

HEY Lawman. I am a HE not a she. Hope that clears up. Now NZ/ Evan. You can stay at the 260 KM As Even the brothers held there birds to what 250 k. On races. Because they did not want to over work them. THAT is choice and CARE. And for the thread. Seeing the article and pictures Is another side to what people read. The good the bad. BUT we can not USE smut to attack with. We have to keep going. We have to not give up. Do what we can to keep the sport out of light of PETA. this means no fuel for the fire. Which is not easy but being more knowing About what a person sys can be twisted to what another wants it to say.. The sport is slowly losing members world wide. And support is going down. so a publicity director for clubs Would help bring out the good side. THAT would at times take FUNDS. but often FREE press helps. And fail to answer the prying questions As the stament not to my knowledge. This age and the web MANY words are said that can miss leading.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

IMO racing pigeons need to get out in the public eye, like other sports, utility dog competions were never televised.. now they are, just watched one a few weeks ago and thought it was cool, the tyson reality show is not what I mean here...but the main channel sports coverage, while giving the public info on the keeping and care of the birds, the personality behind the birds.. like how they cover horse racing. this sport/hobbie just seems too obscure and most people are really confused about it. But perhaps that is because we are talking pigeons here... one of the most unpopular birds thought of by many as vermin. the pigeon racing world needs a great lawyer and a good publicist, but who has the money to pay those types?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I also agree, I think maybe I misinterpreted Re Lee's post, but a later post from a member stated there is nothing unnatural about racing pigeons, All I was stating is it is unnatural, But the skills and ability they have been given are of course natural, Or instinct, whichever way you want to look at it, I love racing pigeons and I believe the birds enjoy most of it too so that's the main thing here, I am not taking PETA's side but I want racers to be responsible for the life's they hold in their hands and also realistic about the risk involved to the birds.


You make two valid points in your last sentence.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Kastle Loft said:


> The discussion is good . . .
> 
> But back to the main point - what can we do? My original post was a suggestion to educate our friends and anyone else we can reach about how this organization operates so that donations will dry up. There are many alternative charities that support animal welfare without being hypocritical or extremist or absolutist or . . .
> 
> I'm just saying people need to be educated and do their research before donating and this article on HuffPo is a good one to share. That's one simple and easy thing we can do.


Thank you for sharing, and for bringing forth some very good points.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I would like to ask a civil question to ALL here,and I want a honest answer...

*How many lofts here have pigeons in them that are currently 12 years old or older??*
I would have two,but I gave one to a good friend here...I have a RCC born 1998,and the other one is a 1998 bird also, that I gave to a buddy...

The reason I ask is....If you are breeding TO MANY PIGEONS,that you really don`t need,you will never have room for a 'Old Timer',that needs to live out his/her life in a safe loft,with plenty of room....

I have two small lofts...The breeding loft is 8x8,and has a 3x8 part/section fort my feed and supplies....My flying loft is 8x14...With that all being said,if I was a MOB flyer/breeder,I would not have room for any old timers,and I probally wouldn`t have pigeons living to 19 yrs old...I have had at least 1 bird live to 19,and he would have made it to 20,if a hawk didn`t get him...I have had nuerous pigeons living to 15 yrs old..
It only takes a little common sence,and good loft management to accomplish this as I have done over the years...Breed less,take care of them better...NOT...Breed more,and take care of them less....Alamo


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Alamo said:


> I would like to ask a civil question to ALL here,and I want a honest answer...
> 
> *How many lofts here have pigeons in them that are currently 12 years old or older??*
> I would have two,but I gave one to a good friend here...I have a RCC born 1998,and the other one is a 1998 bird also, that I gave to a buddy...
> ...


I've got a few the oldest being a Silver from 1992 making him 21 years old. He was looking good until this winter he took it hard. He's still going but he just looks tired and lost alot of his spunk. I'm not like you with keeping a small amount of birds. I have alot of birds and if run out of room I'll build a new loft to hold them I've got 4 coops bigger then your flying loft right now and don't plan on adding another loft anytime soon but I might knock one down and rebuild it. To me if I breed a bird or buy it at an auction no matter if the birds a champ or a chump they have a place to live for as long as they live and die from natural causes.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Alamo said:


> I would like to ask a civil question to ALL here,and I want a honest answer...
> 
> *How many lofts here have pigeons in them that are currently 12 years old or older??*
> I would have two,but I gave one to a good friend here...I have a RCC born 1998,and the other one is a 1998 bird also, that I gave to a buddy...
> ...


Hey Alamo, 

I'm what I concider a small flier as well (normally breed no more than 40 birds in a given year) and have four birds over 12 in my loft with the oldest at 19years this year. She was the best hen I ever owned and the foundation of one of my bloodlines. I have two sons off of her in the breeding loft now that are 12 and 10 respectively and both still breeding strong. 

They both have children that are now between 5-8 years old that will be in place ready to take there spots should anything happen to them. As well as younger birds on the race team out of them. 

P.S. re lee sorry about the mix up, there are numerous lee's in my life starting with my mother cora lee along with other female cousins all with the middle names of lee. So it was a natural assumption on my part.

Now as for organizations such as PETA and those who support it by donations or helping in shelters and the like. Not everyone believes in PETA's twisted message that works for them or helps out, that much is true. 

However unless or until those individuals who help injured animals (and dont believe in PETA's twisted message) wake up and stop helping them by associating with organizations like them, nothing will change in the way PETA does business.

Like I've repeatedly said, if it walks talks and acts like a duck its probibly a duck. 

You cannot associate with organizations like PETA on any level without being called out as being like them, even if your not and you dont believe in their overall message.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

http://theloftreport.com/breaking-news-au-reponds/

Some light reading for anyone who enjoys the freedom of pet or bird ownership.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Loft size dictates how many birds you can keep. MORE is not the right number. The useable number is right. And even breeding meaning raising more That is ok to. aslong as the selection is done to reduce to a proper team. Far as retired birds. Many have them. I new a person that had probaly 20 That were 12 to 16 years old retired and stopped being even loft flown.. I have had birds 15 and over and still loft flew them.. Now days with mr cooper hawk Some areas are hit hard. YES later breeding would help those areas Going to 1 to 2 rounds in late feb to mar first to pair. So the hawks can move out. . But retired birds does not save the hobby or sport. Does show CARE. Waht Evan even said about flying a short distance relates to care. BUT a good 500 mile race shows the grit of a bird And being raced right They can do it fine.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

ERIC K said:


> http://theloftreport.com/breaking-news-au-reponds/
> 
> Some light reading for anyone who enjoys the freedom of pet or bird ownership.


Light reading my eye....... but they stated the problem and the approach to it very well indeed.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Re Lee.....The age idea that I brought up was about having enough pigeons to breed/race from....Anything OVER this NEEDED amount is bad for our hobby...Why ?? You take up alot of space with un-needed pigeons,and that takes space away from pigeons that have given their BEST to you,and THEY should always have a perch in your loft....So the point I made is,with the very small setup & lofts I have,I am able to make the old timers live out their lives is saftey and good health...The 1998 pigeon I have was bred for stock...He had never been out of the loft untill 2012....And boy does he love being out to fly around....The 19 yr old pigeon that a hawk got,was out for the 1st time ever at 15 yrs old....After a few weeks,he let me know,that was enough flying around for the year,and I put him back in the stock loft....He was my #1 breeding cock,who bred multiple combine winners...Two were 500Mile Combine winners,and another won a 200Mile Combine race with 2,022 birds flying....He was happy doing that,and I was happy to see him act like a youngster flying around...He disapeared one day,and I assume a hawk got him...Maybe not !! Maybe he found a young hen bird,and they went on a honeymoon flight to Miami,Fl........Alamo


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Alamo said:


> Re Lee.....The age idea that I brought up was about having enough pigeons to breed/race from....Anything OVER this NEEDED amount is bad for our hobby...Why ?? You take up alot of space with un-needed pigeons,and that takes space away from pigeons that have given their BEST to you,and THEY should always have a perch in your loft....So the point I made is,with the very small setup & lofts I have,I am able to make the old timers live out their lives is saftey and good health...The 1998 pigeon I have was bred for stock...He had never been out of the loft untill 2012....And boy does he love being out to fly around....The 19 yr old pigeon that a hawk got,was out for the 1st time ever at 15 yrs old....After a few weeks,he let me know,that was enough flying around for the year,and I put him back in the stock loft....He was my #1 breeding cock,who bred multiple combine winners...Two were 500Mile Combine winners,and another won a 200Mile Combine race with 2,022 birds flying....He was happy doing that,and I was happy to see him act like a youngster flying around...He disapeared one day,and I assume a hawk got him...Maybe not !! Maybe he found a young hen bird,and they went on a honeymoon flight to Miami,Fl........Alamo


I agree. That is why I use the word SELECT. as A team should be selected from there training. And then selected from race results as to add to the old bird team. Then selected after IF FLYING old bird after the 3 year or late for use as a breeder. Keeping just extra birds takes room. I have seen year that I only kept ONE bird over As I had birds better or equal So the ONE bird was the only need that year.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> *TO say THE FERAL CATS ARE BETTER OFF DEAD is cruel. *What about all the feral pigeons Are they better off dead. Or the deer or the song birds ECT. some group are catching feral cats and fixing them so they will not produce THEN RELEASE them agin. That is doing something that helps in a way. Or the rehabers that take in birds and animals and try to heal them and release them back to nature. They to are doing something . But to just kill because as you said they are better off dead Needs to be looked at.



Apparently re lee, you have not seen all the sick and starving feral cats out there. They are found dead behind the dumpsters where they live and scavenge for food, have litter after litter that their bodies are not strong or healthy enough to support. They are undernourished and scrawny and sick. Their eyes are tearing and they are covered with fleas, with no one to take them to the vet. It's a sad miserable existence. The poor kittens don't have much chance for a healthy life as they are born weak and sickly to begin with. They are torn up from fights and hungry all the time. 
It isn't their fault. It's the fault of the irresponsible owners who don't get their animals fixed, and let him roam. And the many people who toss their "pet" out when she comes home pregnant. It's horrible and sad. Most can't even be adopted out, as they are just to wild. Do you really think this is better than not being? I don't.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

I can honestly say that I have never seen a feral cat that was malnourished or covered in fleas & etc. It seems to me that the homeless people that exist in major metro areas of the US are more physically and mentally needing than most feral cats. I can't say what the feral cats in NYC or Boston & etc. have to deal with, but I suspect that there are enough mice, rats and vermin there to feed many? I would not live in NYC or Boston or many other cities in the US. I have visited both and many more, and the quality of life there is not to my liking.
PETA exists because of some confused logic perpetrated by a few people that are able to prey financially on the naive well intentioned populous that is easily duped by a con game.
I think that before anyone makes a contribution of money or labor to an organization they should investigate what it is actually about. PETA is an organization that is run by three (3) voting members of which two (2) are independent. I assume that the one that is not independent is the founder "Ingrid Newkirk".
When one investigates the facts this organization in responsible for the deaths of thousands of animals annually. Many of these animals are put to death with no reasonable effort to place them in a home.
The US and state governments are in part responsible for allowing this activity to continue.
I could easily go on to elaborate more detailed facts, but among other things I have learned is that people don't want to be bothered with the real facts. For many people it is too easy to conclude in advance what is good or bad and go forward with the mind set even as the facts would prove otherwise.
As relates to what can be done about PETA - I would suggest that the best defense is a good offense!


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## HeavyDlofts (May 23, 2012)

PETA is justa bunch of useless morons, screw them freaks !!!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> Apparently re lee, you have not seen all the sick and starving feral cats out there. They are found dead behind the dumpsters where they live and scavenge for food, have litter after litter that their bodies are not strong or healthy enough to support. They are undernourished and scrawny and sick. Their eyes are tearing and they are covered with fleas, with no one to take them to the vet. It's a sad miserable existence. The poor kittens don't have much chance for a healthy life as they are born weak and sickly to begin with. They are torn up from fights and hungry all the time.
> It isn't their fault. It's the fault of the irresponsible owners who don't get their animals fixed, and let him roam. And the many people who toss their "pet" out when she comes home pregnant. It's horrible and sad. Most can't even be adopted out, as they are just to wild. Do you really think this is better than not being? I don't.


I have seen plenty in my life. NONE as you describe. Even had people dump them on my property when I lived in the country. . Yes people let cats roam. NO large cities like NYC cats may be as you describe. Never been there. And cats are imports to this country. But It does not mean they are better off dead. At least most. NOW the pictured showed in TV to get DONATIONS cats look as you say. BUT I bet after the film was made the cat was put to sleep.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> I have seen plenty in my life. NONE as you describe. Even had people dump them on my property when I lived in the country. . Yes people let cats roam. NO large cities like NYC cats may be as you describe. Never been there. And cats are imports to this country. But It does not mean they are better off dead. At least most. NOW the pictured showed in TV to get DONATIONS cats look as you say. BUT I bet after the film was made the cat was put to sleep.


Then you just don't see what is really out there. There are plenty around here. Or maybe some just don't want to see it. Some just like to believe that everything PETA says is a lie, and that nothing is the fault of society. In being honest, you must see both sides, and not have tunnel vision.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jay3 - You have made some valid points about irresponsible pet owners. But let me ask you what you think about the animals released from fur farms, research facilities, corporate farms, etc. that PETA, The Alliance For Animals, Animal Liberation Front, and other groups have let loose to die miserable deaths because they have always been cared for by humans. I will not get into a philosophical discussion about the right or wrong of keeping animals in these facilities, but I have seen the horrible results from such releases. IMO, the actions of these liberations are every bit as bad as what derelict pet owners have done. 

The difference is that bad pet owners are bad pet owners. They don't claim to be animal saviors that are every bit as uncaring about animal welfare as the pet owners, but collect millions from donations with no consciousness about deceiving those that have donated. If there is real concern for your ferals, ask PETA and the other groups for money to take care of the them. See how far you get, and how much money you recieve.

I know for sure sure that there are abusive owners, animals being thrown into the wild, and other horror stories out there. But IMO, the real horror comes from those who claim to be animal rights activists, and then release animals from facilities with very little hope of their survival.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

All I was saying is that animals being killed because there are too many is a sad thing, but that goes back to the owning of pets. If those unwanted animals were not out there, then there would be no need for anyone to have to euthanise them. But no one will even acknowledge that. It's all Peta's fault that those animals out number good homes for them. And people who own cats and let them breed, than give them away. If they didn't do that, then more shelter cats would find homes. I'm just saying to put the blame where it belongs. And much of the blame is on irresponsible people. You cannot put it all on PETA. All I said, except for the comment on feral cats. And if the others here have not seen them in the conditions that I have mentioned, then they are lucky, or just not really looking. It is all over. I do not condone everything that has been done by people who work for PETA. That wasn't my intention. I was just putting the blame for the fate of the poor animals who are being killed where it belongs. But some just don't want to see it.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Of course the irresponsible who are the cause of uncared for animals are to blame for some of what PETA is involved in. But if one looks into the real facts, there is a rescue organization that is operating in very close proximity to PETAs kill facility that places most of the animals that are taken in by their organization. PETA could do the same if they were to attempt it.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> All I was saying is that animals being killed because there are too many is a sad thing, but that goes back to the owning of pets. If those unwanted animals were not out there, then there would be no need for anyone to have to euthanise them. But no one will even acknowledge that. It's all Peta's fault that those animals out number good homes for them. And people who own cats and let them breed, than give them away. If they didn't do that, then more shelter cats would find homes. I'm just saying to put the blame where it belongs. And much of the blame is on irresponsible people. You cannot put it all on PETA. All I said, except for the comment on feral cats. And if the others here have not seen them in the conditions that I have mentioned, then they are lucky, or just not really looking. It is all over. I do not condone everything that has been done by people who work for PETA. That wasn't my intention. I was just putting the blame for the fate of the poor animals who are being killed where it belongs. But some just don't want to see it.


 IF say spreading desease, Not being able to take care of there young, Having to allways hunt for food enough to feed there young and selfs. Being crippled perhaps blind. Ran over and killed Not haveing a warm place from the freezing winters Means they should DIE. I JUST DESCRIBED the millions of POOR PEOPLE that live that way every DAY. But yes man through his want of animals and pets did infact cause some of the problems. As MANKIND is far from perfect and far removed from natures ways.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There are just too many animals, and more come every day.Most shelters end up killing a large number of animals they take in every year. There are some no kill shelters, but not enough of them. there are just not enough homes for the volume of animals that are unwanted.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

All I was trying to say is that it is too bad that, along with the irresponsible pet owners, it's not right that the so called animal welfare activists don't put more money into actually providing more free spay/neuter clinics, vet care, no kill shelters,etc., and less on filling their own coffers for God knows what. Ads, stunts, break ins, letting animals loose, infiltrating animal facilities, spending tons of money that could/should go to animal care on legal defenses for their illegal actions. This is all money that could be spent in better ways.

We all need to take a hard look at ourselves as pet owners. Our we willing to do what's right for our pets? Instead of donating money to these groups we should take this money and give better care to the animals we have. One example pertinent to PT members is not breeding for quantity, but for quality. 

I don't blame PETA and the others for all the suffering animals. I just think that any organization that claims to be for animal rights should spend their millions for animal rights. Meaning their right to more free or low cost Vet care and education of pet owners to really help alleviate animal suffering.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

This stuff has all been gone over before and I would hope everyone can agree that 

_some_ of what PETA says does happen.

And we can only try ourselves to be better people and not let it happen under our watch.

Apart from that, There is not a lot we can do apart from not let them work us up and not give them ammo - ie look after your pets and you have nothing to worry about ethically.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

NZ Pigeon said:


> This stuff has all been gone over before and I would hope everyone can agree that
> 
> _some_ of what PETA says does happen.
> 
> ...


Yup they take isolated incidents involving truely bad people and try to paint all owners of animals with the same brush. 

Heck even some on this web site seem to indicate they dont think we should fly any pigeon beyond 250 miles, because the Jansen brother never flew any further than that. Others over the years seem to believe we shoulnt fly our birds at all but keep them locked in the safety of our lofts. This is hog wash by the way, at least with racing homers they were meant to fly, not sit in a box their whole lives. But if PETA has their way none of us will be able to have birds of any type not even paraketts and cockateals would be safe from there ever grabbing hands.

Your dogs, cats horses all of it would be gone forever. These animales especially have been with man, worked lived and died alongside man since the beginning of recorded time. PETA would and will take it all away if given the chance.

If people feel the need to help out? Then give to your local shelters directly and not through organisations like PETA who siffen most of the money off for who knows what. 

Refuse under any circumstance to work with or associate with any local shelters that do take money from PETA or any associated organization. 

This is where and how we hurt them the most......we do not give them a voice. What do you think would happen if all of a sudden no one would take PETA's money? They would be seen for what they really are, investigated by the FBI and ultimately shut down.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Jay 3, you may be right when you state that most shelters end up killing a large number of animals that they take in. The real question of importance is what percent of the animals are placed vs. what percent are killed? I doubt that any credible organization has statistics that approach PETA's numbers on a percentage basis. The figures are readily available through a report that they are required to file with the state of Virginia.
The mission statement of PETA is simply " Protection of Animal Rights ". As far as free spay and neuter through PETA. I doubt that they do that, as according to the 2011 990 Form filed by them they had revenue from spay/neuter of $607,554 for that year.
PETA has tremendous assets that could be used for the benefit of animals, but instead it chooses to kill them. At year end of 2011 PETA has disclosed on their filed 990 Form that they have cash on hand of $730,000 and investments in securities of $15,369,000.
Over $16,000,000 that could have been used for the "Protection of Animal Rights".
Apparently one the rights animals do not have by PETAs definition is the right to life.
People need to wake up and do a real investigation of the facts associated with organizations that they are associated with and or defending!!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I can say I have probably seen EVERY aspect of pigeon keeping there is to see. And I can say THE hobby has done very good things to take care of pigeons To keeping them healthy. To advancing them IN both Show. RACE, performance.ect. And extend there LIFE much better then the wild state. WITHOUT the hobby MANY sick birds Brought to Rehabers WOULD DIE because the study on treatments Would have never been done on level you see PMV would have destroyed most the hobby Had it not been for the caring people that raise pigeon Pushing VETS to find a vaccine. There is in this WORLD good people And BAD people Many of the BAD think they are taking care of there birds BUT MORE good people are out there. AND as I have repeatly said NATURE takes over any time the birds Are in the sky. We can not control that. Giving the pigeons the best we can IS all that can be done. AND that does mean SELECTION To insure there best chances YOU can NOT takea person that can swimm and put them in the water and say they have the needed tools to win a medal swimming. But train that person Push that person THen you might know if they have a chance. IF they then can not perform as they need to YOU tell them they can not do it. Same as pigeon keeping You do not use the birdsThat can not compete. So the ones that DO compete Have there better chance SELECTION. Can we do it any better ,Perhaps. But not many more things can be done Yes the hobby improves And the birds advance. Or at least stay strong at a level to compete. Lofts get BETTER. But some lofts are so good That I would even like them As a HOUSE. WHAT else can be done Anybody can show what they want to make things look BAD. But who shows the GOOD along with it.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I certainly agree with all you have said. I would answer your last question that forums like this one do a lot to show the real nature of the pigeon hobby. As you stated, there are good and bad everywhere, but I think that the threads and posts placed here show the love and care that the majority of our members feel for their birds. We just need to get this fact out there so that the nay-sayers don't always have the last, and loudest, say about us.


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

As far as I can see peta is nearly universally ignored and dismissed as a group of extremists with little to no grasp on reality and that operates as a shameless oportunistic media grabber. That is all


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Is it possible to conceive that, rather than simply vilifying an organization who's main concern is the well-being of animals.....rather than spread the same sort of lies which one criticizes their very target for.....there can be a middle-ground where one can both open a constructive dialogue to correct what they deem to be innacuracies...

...while also admitting to the GOOD which an animal-rights organization does ?

Because, to ME the answer would seem yes. But this would require loft owners, racers, and fanciers to admit that there are plenty of people out there in the world who do, in fact, treat their charges quite badly, and have very little regard for the lives they themselves are solely responsible for creating.

The myopic quality of threads such as this...the US vs. THEM mentality.....


...is truly sad. But just a mirror of a much larger problem we human beings seem intent upon fomenting at every opportunity...


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I guess I missed something. It would seem to me that PETA is doing the vilifying of every animal lover of any kind. Yes, there are definitely people who do not take care of their animals the way they need to. There are horrific cases of abuse against animals at every turn. But how can an organization that has more recorded euthanasia stories, more instances of releasing animals from labs, fur farms, regular farms, etc. that end up dying terrible deaths through starvation, predation, being hit by cars. 

They take in millions of dollars, but their own bank records show that very few of those dollars actually go for animal welfare. Yet they condemn the millions of pet owners that are willing to spend their last dollars to care for their pets. They physically assault people that don't share their radical views. They throw blood on people because they eat meat. These are all FACTS that you can easily look up to verify what I say. How can you admire any entity that so willingly breaks the law? 

Are there good people in PETA. I'm sure there are. But their allegience is in the wrong place. There are many other animal welfare and animal rights groups that do a lot more good than PETA. 

Again, please look up all the facts. It _might_ just change your mind.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jaye said:


> Is it possible to conceive that, rather than simply vilifying an organization who's main concern is the well-being of animals.....rather than spread the same sort of lies which one criticizes their very target for.....there can be a middle-ground where one can both open a constructive dialogue to correct what they deem to be innacuracies...
> 
> ...while also admitting to the GOOD which an animal-rights organization does ?
> 
> ...


When there say there main concern is the LIBERATION of all animals And relate animals to slaves And the holacost/ JEWs . And support What is radical Groups Where is the real good
What would you do if they tried to take your birds


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