# Pigeon with severe balance issues



## beastinfection

I noticed a pigeon on the way to my local dep that didn't fly away when approached. On the way back a guy was chasing it so I picked it up and brought it home with me.

It is an adult, bright-eyed and alert. The thing is it is acting _drunk_. It seems to have severe balance issues, trouble walking in a straight line, trouble flying. When it was trying to escape from that guy on the street I noticed it attempt to fly up to its friends above a doorway but it just couldn't make it; couldn't get quite enough altitude. It didn't appear that its wing was broken when I saw it fly and it doesn't seem to have any visible wounds. It does a faceplant when it lands from a flight, though.

I just watched it try to eat and it fell through the food bowl repeatedly. When it attempted to eat the food that it spilled, it just didn't seem to be getting the grains into its mouth. It walks in circles, poorly, and falls to one side every once in a while or sinks to the ground slowly and lays on its belly.

So far all I've done is lined a wicker basket with a soft old t-shirt and covered it with a towel, then let the pigeon rest there all night.

Any diagnosis or advice for a course of action?


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## Pidgey

Could be bacterial, viral or due to trauma. Where, basically, are you in case we've got resources or specific illness information in your area?

There's a virus called "PMV" (Paramyxovirus) that they sometimes get that can cause a temporary (usually) loss of motor control. There are also some bacterial infections that can occur in the brain that can cause very similar symptoms. In such cases where it's treatable, we like to get them on antibiotics as fast as possible.

Can you post any pictures of the bird?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

If you can, please describe what the Pigeon has been making for poops so far.

Also, post an image showing some of their freshest poops/urates.

And, a couple images form the sides and front, from the Bird's Eye level, showing the Bird himself.

Canker can also do what you describe, if indirectly, especially if the Bird's Throat is blocked with inflamitory debris, and, the bird is unable to swallow Water or Food, and is thus dehydrated, and, starving.

Check his Vent, ( where he poops from ) anbd see if it is clean, or, being blocked with poop material clinging to the Feathers there ( and if it is soiled, please hold him vertically at the Sink and let cool Water run over that area and gently massage off any debris so all is clean again there )...and let us know.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato

Just wanted to also mention, depending where you found this little guy, that organophosphate poisoning cause similar symptoms (Avitrol). A clue can be that if he is in very good body and feather condition then this should be considered, especially if you found him in an area where there are a good deal of apartment buildings (they use poison to get rid of pest birds, IE; pigeons). If you think he falls into this category, withhold any water, as water will leach out the poison from the bait (usually large corn kernels) they use. You can feel his crop are, this is a storage pouch at the base of the neck, top of the chest area, to see if you feel any large kernels in there. If there are not a lot you may miss feeling them, since you are not experienced at palpitating a crop, but have a go at it. As Pidgey mentions photos would be good, here's how:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525049&postcount=15

Karyn


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## beastinfection

Poisoning was my first suspicion too, Dobato. Glad to know that I shouldn't be giving water, though. Thankfully this pigeon has so far been too clumsy to drink, might have saved its life. I'll feel his crop soon and post.

pdpbison, his vent is clean. I'll post a picture of his poop soon.

Pidgey and pdpbison, I'm in Montréal and here is a link to zipped photos of the pigeon; not the clearest but this pigeon has a lot of pep and it's hard to get it to sit still for long:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/f307eg943jp9g0u/Pigeon.zip

I opted to not attach the images here because shrinking them down to 100k made them almost unviewable and the computer I'm working with, though supposedly fast, is sluggish mud when running even barebones image editing software. I'm going to dismantle and reassemble it now so my responses may be slightly delayed. 

I will try all of the suggested things and post back soon.


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## beastinfection

Here is a picture of his poop:
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?fs69qpd4mzfucl7

I palpitated his crop but didn't feel anything too telling. Maybe I'm not sure what I'm looking for.. his crop felt hard if I was feeling the right place, but nothing kernel-y.

pdpbison, how do you get a pigeon to open its mouth? This one seems very resistant to letting me look in. Probably I should search the forums for the answers to these questions! I'm just worried about how much time I have to figure out what this pigeon's condition is and how to help it..

Thanks for all your help!


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## pdpbison

I can not access the images nor can I download anyone's Zip Files nor do I have the software to do it.

Just try an appropriate Camera DPI setting...instead?

Avitrol does not produce the symptoms you are describing.

Avitrol occasions typically a very hyper-vivid Bird who is open Beak panting and who's Heart Rate and respiration rates are off the chart...along with intermittant severe thrashing and siezures, wildly dialating and contracting Pupils, and, an attending odor which is something like a sort of sickly burnt sugar smell.

Milder versions would be just that.

Water should be with-held from most suspected Poisoning or Avitrol Poisoning cases.


One needs to be able to determine whether one is countinancing a Poisoned Bird, or, a Bird who is dehydrated/starved, since these will tend to be polar opposite protocols for the Bird to survive.


And one should palpate or otherwise investigate the Crop to see what it has for contents, liquid or solid...no matter the Bird's ostensible symtpoms on arrival or when finding them.

Poops and Urates ( how many an hour, or how many since getting the Bird ) and their colors and consistencies can permit evaluations which are important to the choices or treatments one is gong to elect.

Dehydration and or starvation will occasion the symptoms you are describing...and, these would tend to have a reason, which itself underlies their having come about.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## beastinfection

I'm surprised the second picture link didn't work, as it only links to a page with the image itself not needing to be downloaded. I've attached a shrunk-down picture of his poop to this message for you. Six poops like that since the pigeon got here last night.

Your expanded definition of Avitrol poisoning symptoms make me think he definitely doesn't have Avitrol poisoning. I did palpate his crop but I'll have to research further what I'm hoping to find.

Thanks again!


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## pdpbison

We need some images showing the whole Bird from their own Eye level...also some closer vies of the profile and face and head to neck form the side.


Poop image is not inconsistent with near starvation ( fecal squiq appearing to be mostly Bile and some mucous and a little fecal material proper ) and Urates appearing grainy, and like flat 'paint' instead of a 3 dimensional Paste...so could be privation/dehydration and Canker issues.


Crop is the front of the Pigeon's Body...below which is their Keel and deep layers of Chest Muscles.

An empty Crop can feel flacid or flat or as if no crop is even there at all.


Gently feel the length of their Neck, with the intention of seeing if there are any areas of swelling or lumps.

Opening a Beak is very easy when one knows how, but takes twenty paragraphs to exxplain how to do it safely and effectively.

"Burrito Bird" is the best mode for allowing both Hands to be free, and, to have the Bird secured and for this to be done undder a bright Light so one can see well into the Mouth and Throat once the Beak is open.


I need to make an Image Album showing the steps for 'Burrito Bird', since explainig it is just really tedious...

But, take a wash cloth, fold two corners in so it is then shaped like a sort of crystal...have thos longways across your thighs as you sit under a bright Desk Lamp.

Brinbg the Bird's legs back parallel to his Body, and back against the underside of his Tail.

Set him thusly on to the middle of the Cloth, which also is then setting him into the cloth which is over the trough area between your thighs as you sit.

Set him so his Keel is on the Cloth, which allows most of his Crop to over hang...and, have the cloth folded as described so the width is about right for htis and for his feet to just overhang the other side of the cloth.

Wrap one side of the cloth over his shoulders and back...then wrap the other side over, and, now, you have a 'Burrito' Bird.

This then is spigotted vertically just behind your knees, so you are holding the 'Burrito' between your Thighs there, holding the Bird so wrapped, so that he is more than halfway above your Thighs, so as not to be putting any pressure on his Crop..and holdf gently, just enough light pressure for him not to fall through.

Both Hands now free, Bird facing right...left hand palm up...slip little finger and ring finger of left hand, slip that "V" around his uper neck, from behind.

Left thumnb hovers above little finger tip.


Right Hand, Thumb and middle finget tips lightly grasp Beal at the tip, and, sort of like thumb goes up, middle finger goes down, and, Beak is not open, and, then, one slipd one's left hand Thumb tip edge, into the Bird's left side of the open Beak, and this then keeps it open and right hand is free.


Like that...











beastinfection said:


> Here is a picture of his poop:
> http://www.mediafire.com/i/?fs69qpd4mzfucl7
> 
> I palpitated his crop but didn't feel anything too telling. Maybe I'm not sure what I'm looking for.. his crop felt hard if I was feeling the right place, but nothing kernel-y.
> 
> pdpbison, how do you get a pigeon to open its mouth? This one seems very resistant to letting me look in. Probably I should search the forums for the answers to these questions! I'm just worried about how much time I have to figure out what this pigeon's condition is and how to help it..
> 
> Thanks for all your help!


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## pdpbison

This Link works...


This is the way to do it...




beastinfection said:


> Here is a picture of his poop:
> http://www.mediafire.com/i/?fs69qpd4mzfucl7
> 
> I palpitated his crop but didn't feel anything too telling. Maybe I'm not sure what I'm looking for.. his crop felt hard if I was feeling the right place, but nothing kernel-y.
> 
> pdpbison, how do you get a pigeon to open its mouth? This one seems very resistant to letting me look in. Probably I should search the forums for the answers to these questions! I'm just worried about how much time I have to figure out what this pigeon's condition is and how to help it..
> 
> Thanks for all your help!


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## Dobato

Yes, as Phil says, there would be opposite approach, depending on what was causing this bird to be in the condition it is in. You did not mention where you found this little guy, was it around apartment building? Also, I went to the photo link and could not see any photos there. Open his mouth and have a good smell, does it have an off putting chemical smell or other strong odor?

Thanks Phil, this is a bile dropping meaning this bird has had no food in the last while, it down show some moisture content, which is good.

Need some photos of the bird ASAP.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> I'm surprised the second picture link didn't work, as it only links to a page with the image itself not needing to be downloaded. I've attached a shrunk-down picture of his poop to this message for you. Six poops like that since the pigeon got here last night.
> 
> Your expanded definition of Avitrol poisoning symptoms make me think he definitely doesn't have Avitrol poisoning. I did palpate his crop but I'll have to research further what I'm hoping to find.
> 
> Thanks again!




That Link was good...

Poop suggests recent privation and likely Canker issues to me...but we need to see more Urates once he is rehydrated ( say, fourteen hours from now, after quite a few smal sipping sessions of rehydration solution, amounting to at least five or six fluid ounces ).


But first, we need to arrive at some evaluation which will permit a calculated risk regarding whether he can swallow or has obturating inflamation issues in the esophagus,

Or, just make some rehydration Solution and see if he can drink without mis-hap or gagging..and if he can, then we can assume all is well enough there with that.

I gotta run so Karyn can walk you through the Electrolyte/rehydration solution.

If this is a youngster, you will have to lightly moisten your finger tips and genly guide his Beak into the Water/Solution, and, gently keep your finger tips on his Beak as he drinks...solution must be about tepid or he would refuse.


Probably he can swallow alright but we need to know if any palpable lumps or swelling in the Neck or debris in the Mouth or upper Throat, visible with Beak open.


Rehydration/electrolyte Solutions, offered slightly tepid ( a little less than body temp ) and, volentary drinking would follow...


Then appropriate meds...and, possibly tube feeding but we don't know yet on that.

If this is a youngster, he may need to be worked with to drink and we can explain how to do this ( Images of the Bird himself would show if this is a youngster ) .

Might be a Shot Bird...so, carefully examine them all over for any hints of any small feathers not laying perfectly flat, and, or for any small bumps under the Feathers on his Body front, sides, undersides, and so on.




Phil
Lv


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## beastinfection

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157626883502763/

There is a set of photos of the pigeon. If they aren't as helpful as they should be, please advise on what to do to get a helpful shot. When taking the photos I noticed a possible injury on the foot.

I did 'burrito bird' and looked into the beak but saw no obvious signs of obstruction or sores. I might not have opened the beak as widely as I could have.. I was afraid of breaking poor pigeon's face. i could see pretty far down the throat though.

I found the pigeon in a highly populated area that's also now being gentrified, with lots of condos being built and government housing around too. Close to the intersection of two busy streets and close to apartment buildings.

I've set out food & water but pigeon seems to have a very tough time coordinating long enough to eat or drink, stumbling around, sitting in the food, ignoring the water. Do I need to get a dropper to feed the rehydration solution?


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## beastinfection

I've procured droppers from the pharmacy, I'd just like a quick and informed course of action. Do I risk rehydrating the pigeon without knowing if it's been poisoned? Or should I go ahead and attempt to make it drink. It doesn't drink from the water bowl on its own.


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## pdpbison

This is an adult Pigeon...and, I would say he is having some internal Pain.

I do not think this Pigeon has been poisoned...but rather, I will wager they have been down and not flying from a Canker infection, which then led to privation and dehydration.

Please do NOT try using a 'dropper' for anything with this Pigeon.


Take a roughly 8 ounce Glass of room temperature Water...dissolve a light Teaspoon of Honey in it...dissolve a good pinch of Salt, and if you have any, add about seven drops of Apple Cider Vinegar.

Pour half of this into a small tea Cup or similar height thing, and, have the Pigeon on a Towel on your lap, and, gently offer it to him to drink.

Pieon facing right, lef hand softly on his shoulders, right Hand managing the Tea Cup...


He will know how to drink, but may have never seen Water in a Cup before, so, just lightly splash the Water with a finger tip and or touch his Beak on the sides with your finger tip after having touched the Water, and or just gently guide his Beak into the Water, and, let him drink.


Let him drink for a couple seconds, then take a little breather...and, repeat another time or two...then repeat every hour or so.

You want him to drink most of this over the next fourteen hours or so...but he should do this volentarily, no force, no putting anything into his Beak.

Pigeons drink like Horses - they put their Beak into the Water and drink. Hence a smaller size Tea Cup is about the right height and depth for them to drink from.


Unless I am mistaken, you are going to need some Medicines for treating Trichomoniasis ( aka Canker ).

This would be Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Carnidazole, Dimetridazole, or a few other 'zoles'.

Tropical Fish Stores sell Metronidazole in a brand called 'Fish Zole'...so, unless you have other sources, maybe see if you can get some of that a.s.a.p. and then check in with us for directions for dosage and administration.


Ideally one would be Tube Feeding this Bird for a while, since his system is 'iffy' as far as whether it would presently manage whloe Seeds well or not....but, p-r-o-b-a-b-l-y he would manage small whole Seeds alright, unless you do know how to Tube Feed?


Anyway...if it is to be small whole Seeds, then a Canary or Finch Seed medley/mix would be best...any Pet Store would have it.

No Seeds for now though, so, check with us first before presenting any Seeds.



Do not try and "Make him drink"...just gently work with him in offering the Electrolyte Water for him to drink, and, or softly guide his Beak into it, and, he will drink...have it tepid...be gentle...


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## beastinfection

Thank you so much pdpbison, I will do all of this right now. I probably won't be able to get canker medication until tomorrow though-- it's already 7PM here in Montréal and the one fish store close to me is already closed.


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## pdpbison

You could also add some unsweetened Cherry Juice to his Drinking solution, say, 1/3rd Cherry Juice, 2/3rds Solution...or even 50/50...if he will drink it, it will provide some nourishment and benifits to his system.

Health Food Stores generally carry Unsweetened Juices ( no citrus though, but Cherry is good, Elderberry, Goji-Berry, Noni, etc, are good...)


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## pdpbison

His injured Toe - looks like the end of the Toe, the last 'pad' may have gotten mashed somehow...anyway, you could apply say 'Neosporin' to that, and, repeat roughly twice-a-day for a while, just to be nice.


Opening the Beak, usually either the top Beak or the bottom will protrude just a teeny bit past the other, and, one can use the end of one's finger nail to sort of catch whichever one it is which sticks out farther, and open it that way, also.

Just enough to look in well, is all one needs to do...

Sounds like you managed it just fine, but, just wanted to add that little detail...

Looks like a very sweet Pigeon who will probably understand your helping them and be co-operative about it.

If you can, keep them set up somewhere elbow high or so, and, not on a floor or low area...it is easier on them that way, since they know they are grounded and compromised, being low is a worry for them, and, being higher up is less of a worry for them.


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## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> Thank you so much pdpbison, I will do all of this right now. I probably won't be able to get canker medication until tomorrow though-- it's already 7PM here in Montréal and the one fish store close to me is already closed.


When checking for the meds at the tropical fish stores, as well as asking for FishZole, ask if they have Metroplex by Seachem, this is Metronidazole as well and I find it to be easier to find in stores than the Fishzole. While you are there, see if the also have a med called Triple-Sulfa by API, as he may need an antibiotic as well as an anti-protozoal (Metronidazole), Phil can decide on this.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Always fine to use a good Anti-Biotic as well...definitely...


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## beastinfection

The pigeon absolutely will not drink. I've missed work and spent hours sitting here with him, guiding his beak, wetting my finger and touching the sides of his beak, making small splashes in the water to let him know what it is. No matter what I do, the pigeon doesn't get it. It's been with me two nights with no water and I'm starting to fear for its life. I don't want to waste money on medication if I need to mix it with water.

The pigeon is very restless and active but its condition seems to be worsening. It wants out of its basket every morning but just stumbles in circles and falls on its face and back and sides. I can't keep missing work every day to sit with this little guy if he's not actually getting better. I'm totally willing to take care of him but can't get him to cooperate with me.

Not sure how to go about rehydrating him now.. Sad because I care about him immensely. What to do?


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## pdpbison

Just set him up so he can be close to the Water Cup, make sure the Cup is twist-tied to the Cage Side or small holes in a Box to twist tie the Cup Handle to...


If you use a Box, line the bottom with white paper towels, and, have holes in the sides for him to look out of and to let light in...drape a sheer cloth over the top for light to get in also.

And leave him be so he can drink in private.

If they are shy, and or if one is not used to managing them, they can refuse to drink...but they will elect to drink in secret.


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## John_D

Without being hydrated enough for his system to function properly, meds won't help him. If he will not drink any other way, the only option is to use either a syringe or a dropper. The important thing is that liquid should never be squirted into a bird's mouth, as it could get into the windpipe and into the lungs. A small syringe (1 ml) can be positioned at the back of the mouth and down slightly into the throat opening, and the plunger gently depressed. He may struggle some, hence the suggestion for a 'burrito'. If you are not OK with that method, then liquid can be gently dropped into the front of the bird's beak with his head level so he will swallow it. The mix needs to be slightly warm - the standard mix for rehydration is 1 tablespoon of glucose powder (or honey, or failing those, sugar) plus one teaspoon salt, dissolved in 1 liter of water. The bird should be kept on heat if possible (heat pad or well wrapped hot water bottle). At the moment is sounds to me like he is too ill to be taking much interest in feeding or watering himself. Does he make any attempt at all to peck and pick up food?


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## Dobato

Another option for you is to do "burrito bird" and slowly dribble water to the side of this bird's beak, a few drops at a time. If you do this a few things, one is that he needs to be angled slightly head down, so any water he does not swallow flows to the front of his beak and drips out, we do not any water flowing down his throat that he is not in control of by swallowing, the second is there are roughly 20 drops in 1mL of water, and a good goal for him would be 5-7mL at a time (this will be 100-140 drops of water, you have to adjust for any water that drips out when giving), 4-5 times a day. If you get him set up as Phil has outlined he should drink on his own, as sometimes they are very private and won't let you see them drink, can you post up a photo of fresh dropping to see how moist they look?

Karyn


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## pdpbison

I do not remember ever having one who would not drink or at least try to drink.


If guiding the Beak to the Rehydration Solution, Bird on one's Lap on a folded Towel as one sits...one can cup one's left hand softly over the Pigeon's Head, or lay a small Wash Cloth or other small light cloth over the Pigeon, leaving the end open where his Head is, and, gently guide the Beak with the slightly moistened finger tips of one's right Hand.


Even the very shy ones will usually go for the gusto this way...even if feeling reluctant, they will drink, and once starting to drink, they get over the worry/shy thing and next round is then a lot easier and they know the drill then.


This Pigeon IS extremely thirsty by now...so I see no reason why he would not drink in private, if set up to encourage that.


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## beastinfection

I've bought the Triple Sulfa now and would love help with the dosage. 

The pigeon does _not_ drink any water, even when left alone in private with the water attached to his basket, even when I slowly guide his beak into the water, etc. The only way I've gotten him to swallow any water is through 'burrito bird' with the dropper; I can see his little tongue lap forward and sip the water at the tip of his beak, one drop at a time.

Maybe I have under-exaggerated the abnormality of his movements. He acts _very_ drunk. He somersaults and falls constantly, his head moves slowly 180 degrees and he sits back on his ass, he totters to one side constantly extending one wing or the other, he can see the seeds I initially put on the ground for him to eat but cannot get them into his mouth even with effort as his pecking is completely ineffective. I put the water down on the floor and he _sees_ it and circles around to try to drink but cannot seem to make himself effectively do so.

I think I will have to do burrito bird to give him the medication. Please advise dosage and amount of water. Thank you so much for all your help, I hope that this medicine will help him make a full recovery.

Oh and I got him pigeon & dove food at the pet store too, hopefully this is good for him?


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## pdpbison

No Medicines untill AFTER this Pigeon is adequately rehydrated.


This means usually something like six fluid ounces of rehydration solution over 14 or 16 hours.

A 'dropper' would be very tedious for this.


Have you felt the length of his Neck, and, looked into his Throat with his Beak open, to see if any lumps or blockages from Canker?


He should be drinking...so, this makes no sense.

Even Pigeons who can not swallow because of blockages will stil try and drink, usually, desperately trying to drink.

So, something is realy odd here with this.

No Seeds!!!


He must be rehydrated before any Meds, and, we must reach a determination about his condition prior to allowing any solid foods.


Have you been offering a rehydration solution? Or just Water?


And, in either case, has it been offered 'tepid'? - close to body temperature? Or..?



The primary Medicine you need is the Metronidazole.



Also, keep the Pigeon in a way where you can clearly see and count the poops each day, or for each 24 hour period.


White Paper Towels in the Cage bottom are good, and can be chaged out each morning.


How many poops has he made in the last 24 hours, and, will you please post some images showing them or showing some of the fresher ones?


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## John_D

beastinfection said:


> He acts _very_ drunk. He somersaults and falls constantly, his head moves slowly 180 degrees and he sits back on his ass, he totters to one side constantly extending one wing or the other, he can see the seeds I initially put on the ground for him to eat but cannot get them into his mouth even with effort as his pecking is completely ineffective. I put the water down on the floor and he _sees_ it and circles around to try to drink but cannot seem to make himself effectively do so.


All these taken together are what I have oberved as symptoms of Pigeon Paramyxovirus. I have had many pigeons in my care who try to pick up seed but either miss completely or appear to toss it over the shoulder with a spasm of the neck. Some can drink water, with difficulty, witha kind of sideways motion into the pot.

Because it is a virus, there is no direct treatment for it. They need supportive care. I have fed three pigeons I had together, twice a day, 40 - 50 pieces of peas and corn each session because they could not eat, however they tried. The peas and corn are frozen variety thawed in hot water and served warm. The moisture on them also helps. They are pushed to the back of the mouth one by one for the bird to swallow. Phil's "burrito" is especially useful when doing this.

There may be other concurrent problems - bacterial or parasitical - but getting the hydration mix and then some food into him comes first.


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## beastinfection

pdpbison, I will wait until after rehydration to give him any medicine. However odd it may seem, he does not really try to drink; I agree that this is odd but it is happening. He has been around water the entire time he's been here and has not once really tried to drink in my presence; left alone with the water bowl, it is still full when we check in on him. I have recently gotten him to drink a good bit by dropperful, a few drops at a time given close to the back of the beak when his beak is closed and his head tilted forward. He laps them up, then I give him some more. I got him to drink close to three droppersful of rehydration fluid this way, then I think he was full enough and wanted no more so I didn't push it.

The first night he just had tepid water. The second day and night he was offered rehydration fluid at slightly varying temperatures. At body temperature at first, then as it cooled down to room temperature,

I will not feed him any seeds, it was only the first night he was here and he didn't manage to really eat any. I have felt his neck and looked down his throat; no sign of canker that I can tell. I looked up some pictures of pigeon canker on the internet and can safely say there is at least nothing visibly similar happening inside his mouth.

I can say that in the past 24 hours he has made maybe 8 poops, recently they are more neon green. I will post pictures. I'll also replace the cloth I have in his basket with white paper towels so I can adequately count the number of droppings.

Should I return the Triple Sulfa for something with Metronidazole? The Triple Sulfa does have Sulfathiazole.

Thanks again.


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## beastinfection

also John_D thanks for the information, I suppose I should take pdpbison's advice and wait to try to feed him peas or corn? i'll pick some up though for when he's ready.


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## John_D

beastinfection said:


> also John_D thanks for the information, I suppose I should take pdpbison's advice and wait to try to feed him peas or corn? i'll pick some up though for when he's ready.


Rehydration first. Then food. Then whatever meds the bird actually _needs_, according to what clinical symptoms may be present or what may be found by analysis of droppings. That's my take on it.


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## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> Should I return the Triple Sulfa for something with Metronidazole? The Triple Sulfa does have Sulfathiazole.
> 
> Thanks again.


Sorry If I wan not clear enough in my post suggesting that you pick up the Triple-Sulfa. The Triple-Sulfa is an antibiotic and the Metronidazole is an anti-protozoal, they work on different pathogens, so antibiotics and anti-protozoals are many times given together, so you need to keep the Triple-Sulfa nd pick up the Metroplex/FishZole as well (be careful with Metronidazole, whatever you get has to be 100% Metronidazole, the two names mentioned are, but the are a number of others that are not). I will help you get the meds mixed and dosed once he is hydrated.

Karyn


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## beastinfection

Droppings here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5858151550/

A small onion skin made it into the picture and was not part of the dropping.


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## pdpbison

Hi b-i,



Poop/Urate is typical of what around here would USUALLY be an advanced and serious Canker/Trichomoniasis condition.

Bird is makng Spent Leucocycte Urates, and Bile ( the green gel part is bile, not fecal matter...) which is starvation.

Metronidazole is usually the Medicine of choice for Canker/Trichomoniasis infection.

Whether this Pigeon has PPMV or anything else as well, is secondary at this point, and or remains to be seen.

Depending on how the Canker infection is effecting the Bird, he may indeed find it difficult to peck, walk, stand, or anything else, let alone trying to do so when seriously dehydrated and starving to death.


Here is what you should do now -


Go to any Home Health Care, Home Medical Supply place, and, get a couple of No. 8 French, Pediatric Urethral/Urinary Catheters, of the soft, clear PLAIN 'Spigot' END, Silicone kind.

And, get a couple 10 mL PLAIN TIP Syringes.

Double check both to make sure the Syringe has the plain simple 'snout', and, that the Catheters have the plain spigot end which will fit on TO the 'snout' of the Syringe.

If you get the wrong kinds it will be a huge hassle to get them to work properly for this.


Get some unsweetened Cherry Juice or Goji Berry Juice ( any Health Food Store ), and, 'Nutrical' or it's equivelent ( any Pet Store, it is a brown goo which comes in a tube for puppies or kittens ) and any of the usual brands of Baby Bird handraising powder 'formula' ( KT, Lefabres, roudnybush, whatever, a powder one muixes with Water for Baby Birds...likewise, any Pet Store would have it ).


We will instruct you then in the use of this/these to adminster rehydration fluids, and, then, Medicines in solution and liquid Nutriments or liquid 'formula' based Foods directly into his Crop.


Make haste!


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## beastinfection

Will he make it through the night? 6:30PM here and I'm betting most home medical supply stores are no longer open... 

First thing in the morning?


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## pdpbison

Well, 1st thing to-morrow then.

Meanwhile, do leave him set up with his Water, in case he decides to have-a-drink on his own.


Do you have weird Sulfur Water or something there?

Maybe get some Bottled Water, and, try using it for his rehydration solution, and see if he will drink that.

I know some parts of the North American Continent, have Tap Water which I myself would puke over if I had to drink it, and, Birds can be a lot more sensitive to that sort of thing than people usually are.


How is he being kept?


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## John_D

I use boiled water, mix the glucose (or substitute) and salt in, then allow it to cool down to a slightly warm state for rehydration purposes. 

If I give a bird this solution, I do 4 or 5 milliliters at one 'sitting' and repeat this about every 2 to 3 hours.


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## beastinfection

Okay I've left him set-up with the water; he's being kept in a wicker basket with hydration fluid cup tied to the inside with wire, toilet paper lining the bottom, and a sheer covering that lets light in. 

The water here isn't particularly bad. I've had tap water that made me want to puke and this isn't it. I'm also using already-boiled water to cut down on the amount of chlorine that I'm feeding the pigeon. I'll buy at least one bottle of bottled water and try making the rehydration fluid from that to see if it makes a difference.


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## beastinfection

Quick question: is trichomoniasis transferrable from pigeon to dog? My roommate is away and we're taking care of her dog at the moment. The pigeon and dog have no contact, share no food or water, and the dog does not come into contact with the droppings.

Didn't see much about this when I tried googling it.


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## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> Okay I've left him set-up with the water; he's being kept in a wicker basket with hydration fluid cup tied to the inside with wire, toilet paper lining the bottom, and a sheer covering that lets light in.
> 
> The water here isn't particularly bad. I've had tap water that made me want to puke and this isn't it. I'm also using already-boiled water to cut down on the amount of chlorine that I'm feeding the pigeon. I'll buy at least one bottle of bottled water and try making the rehydration fluid from that to see if it makes a difference.




Okay...

A medium Large Cardboard Box would likely be better though...and make sure it is no lower than Table Top height ( Birds worry if low or on ground level ).


Yes, use Bottled Watewr instead - plain old Bottled DRINKING Water, and not 'Distilled'...

Make 2 inch by 1 inch or so Diamond shaped Holes for him to see out of, along three sides of the Box...

Line it with Paper Towels, not 'taoilet paper'...if you have no Paper Towels, either get some or use a regular Towel, cut to fit or folded to fit.


Box Top is to be open, and, some thin sheer cloth draped over it to let filtered light in.


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## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> Quick question: is trichomoniasis transferrable from pigeon to dog? My roommate is away and we're taking care of her dog at the moment. The pigeon and dog have no contact, share no food or water, and the dog does not come into contact with the droppings.
> 
> Didn't see much about this when I tried googling it.



There is virtually nothing a Dog would get from a Pigeon under any imaginable conditions, and certainly nothing under these conditions ( ie: even with Dog eating raw, an infected Bird of some sort ).


Maybe a Dog could get Chlamydia or Anthrax or Botulism from a Bid infected with it, if the Dog ate the Bird and or got gore on it's Mucous Membranes, but, for all practical purposes, transmission from Bird to Dog of anything a Bird could have, is a non issue in any but really extra-ordinary conditions.

In Nature, Canids and Felids eat sick, infected or other downer Birds, since those are the ones they can catch and eat...and, there are no infection/illness transmission issues to the Canid or Felid from the practice.


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## Dobato

As Phil mentions, there are practically zero worries for the dog in picking up something from this little guy.

I figured since you working on getting this guy hydrated I should post up the instructions for the Triple-Sulfa, since you already have that med.

Each small, individual packet in the Triple-Sulfa box contains 1000mg of pure TS med, I want you open one of these packs and dump it on something like a small mirror or even a glossy magazine cover. Divide the little pile of Triple Sulfa (TS) evenly in half (500mg), use a credit card or a business card, then put other half back in the pack and put away.

I want you to get a shot-glass and add 10cc of pancake syrup to it, this will be 2 level teaspoons, scrape it all in with your finger (1 teaspoon = 5mL, use a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware teaspoon to be accurate). Now with the half pack of the TS you have set aside (500mg), place this into the 10mL of pancake syrup and stir very well in, cover and let sit for 20 minutes, stir very well again and it will be ready for use. You will now have a 5% TS suspension (50mg/mL) to dose with. 

You will want to give this little guy 0.20mg q12h (this is to the second line on a 1cc syringe, and for reference is about 4 drops and give twice a day). Make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med to give, each time you use it and keep it in the refrigerator between use. Just gently open the bird's mouth and place 1-2 drops at a time in the front of his mouth and allow him to tongue it down

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

Karyn


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## John_D

Let us be assured that this bird is sufficiently hydrated before anything else. If it is not then there is a serious risk that his system will just shut down.

If there is no sign that he has been drinking of his own accord then he must be given the rehydration mix by hand.

How much has he actually been given? I don't know what size dropper you have, thus how much it contains. Can you tell us this, and approx how many droppers full you have managed to give the bird.

Once we can be reasonably sure he is hydrated, then he will need food. Not a crop full to start with, rather 'little and often', until we know if his digestive system is functioning. I've suggested the corn and peas, which has some nutritional value and is soft and easily digestible. Phil has referred to using a rearing formula. Either would be a good starter.


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## pdpbison

Once he is assuredly re-Hydrated...

If it were up to me, I would only use actual true Liquid Nutriments for the first few days, ones which have no fine solids at all - Unsweetened Cherry Juice or Goji-Berry Juice, and 'Nutrical' in some Water...

And, then, move on to adding the powdered Forumula to that/those so it is a loose 'Soup'...and once satisfied his system is come back up far enough after his privations, and, once satisfied his system is not blocked with inflamitory debris from the probable Canker...I would move on to Solid Foods of a small sort of size, such as small whole Seeds/ Finch Mix, Canary Mix...and after a week or so of that, if all seems well, then normal Pigeon Seed mix.


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## beastinfection

John_D- The droppers are generic eyedroppers from the local pharmacy, two for 1.49$. I tore up the packaging getting them out and do not know their volume. What I can tell you is this: I manage to give him 120 drops or so or rehydration solution every two hours.

pdpbison I'm headed to the medical supply store now so if you can either point me in the direction of a tube-feeding forum or post the necessary steps somewhere, I'd be much obliged.


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## beastinfection

Is there anything I can use other than a catheter? Every medical supply store is either 40km away off the island, or doesn't have catheters... Montréal is awful for finding what you need a lot of the time. I'll keep looking, I just feel like time is running out!


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## beastinfection

Nevermind! I finally found a wheelchair supply store that sells catheters not far from a metro stop!


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## John_D

beastinfection said:


> John_D- The droppers are generic eyedroppers from the local pharmacy, two for 1.49$. I tore up the packaging getting them out and do not know their volume. What I can tell you is this: I manage to give him 120 drops or so or rehydration solution every two hours.


That sounds like good work to me.


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## beastinfection

I have retrieved the catheter & syringe, the juice, and the baby bird handfeeding formula. The pet store did not have anything that was 100% Metronidazole, only API's _General Cure_ which is 250mg Metronidazole and 75mg Praziquantel. I bought it in case it is needed.

The catheter is 14 inches long though, this was the only one the store was allowed to sell me individually and not in a box of 100. The syringe does fit though.

Please _immediately_ advise on how to tube feed as the pigeon seems close to death and has become very still. Thank you immensely for all your help thus far.


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## Pidgey

Can you fit the catheter onto the syringe so that liquids in the syringe can be pumped through it?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Link to thread explaining and illustrating tubefeeding:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pictures-amp-videos-of-tube-feeding-16235.html

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> pdpbison I'm headed to the medical supply store now so if you can either point me in the direction of a tube-feeding forum or post the necessary steps somewhere, I'd be much obliged.


Will do once you have them in hand...


----------



## beastinfection

Thank you Pidgey! I tube-fed the pigeon 5ml of baby bird powdered formula mixed with water, without incident. My tube is much, much flimsier than the ones in the videos linked to and only about as big around as the ink tube from a ballpoint pen but everything seemed to go (down) very smoothly, he's happily sleeping now. Can we formulate a plan for what needs to go into the syringe and when, as far as water, food, and medicine?

The only 100% juice my roommate could find was a mix of cherry & pomegranate, hopefully that will suffice. I mixed it 50/50 with some water but only administered 10 drops as I wanted to make sure there was nothing in it that could hurt my small friend. It has vitamin C added as well.

Things seem to be looking up! I won't get my hopes up as of yet since the case of canker hasn't been dealt with but I'll keep my fingers crossed..


----------



## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> I have retrieved the catheter & syringe, the juice, and the baby bird handfeeding formula. The pet store did not have anything that was 100% Metronidazole, only API's _General Cure_ which is 250mg Metronidazole and 75mg Praziquantel. I bought it in case it is needed.
> 
> The catheter is 14 inches long though, this was the only one the store was allowed to sell me individually and not in a box of 100. The syringe does fit though.
> 
> Please _immediately_ advise on how to tube feed as the pigeon seems close to death and has become very still. Thank you immensely for all your help thus far.




Please post an image of the Catheter, and, also, describe it's size as stated on the packaging.

I did try and emphacise the importance of obtaining the right kind of catheter and the right kind of Syringe, so they will fit together properly...but, I understand if the personel of the store were not being co-operative.


Depending on the Syringe type, the 'nose' or snout...and, depending on the diameter and material of the Catheter...


Images of both please showing their ends?


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## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> Thank you Pidgey! I tube-fed the pigeon 5ml of baby bird powdered formula mixed with water, without incident. My tube is much, much flimsier than the ones in the videos linked to and only about as big around as the ink tube from a ballpoint pen but everything seemed to go (down) very smoothly, he's happily sleeping now. Can we formulate a plan for what needs to go into the syringe and when, as far as water, food, and medicine?
> 
> The only 100% juice my roommate could find was a mix of cherry & pomegranate, hopefully that will suffice. I mixed it 50/50 with some water but only administered 10 drops as I wanted to make sure there was nothing in it that could hurt my small friend. It has vitamin C added as well.
> 
> Things seem to be looking up! I won't get my hopes up as of yet since the case of canker hasn't been dealt with but I'll keep my fingers crossed..



Well, this seems to be getting a little screwed up.


Glad to hear you resolved the Appliance and it's use though!

Make sure to lightly Lube the Catheter with fresh Olive Oil or KY Jelly, so it slides all the way IN to his lower Crop without dragging.

Cut the Catheter to an appropriate length of say five inches or so, and, this will help you in knowing where the tip is.

Cut the end at a diagonal and flame soften the edges, like this -


http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/578005139kkdMDX

A) We need fresh poop/urate images.

B) YOu need to be rehydrating the Pigeon before adminstering formula.

C) Once rehydration is far enough along, and, his system is showing this by excreting old staled poop material and or producing sufficient Urates...THEN one moves on to the Liquid Nutriments ( unsweetened Cherry Juice and "Nutrical" )...

D) After a day or two of that, if it seems safe to do, one begins tube feeding Formula.


The Metronidazole and Praziquantel ( An anti-Helminthic, for ridding an Animal of Tape Worms ) will probably be alright, though it is fairly unlikely this Pigeon has Tape Worms.

Though he might have other kinds of Worms, and, those would require a different kind of Anti-Worm Medicine.


See what you can do about posting freshest poop/urate images, and, to be rehydrating him in small sessions every hour or so for the rest of the day, updating the poop/urate images as you go.


Post some images of the Pigeon himself also.


If it is cool or chilly there or if indoors with airconditioning, keep him out of any drafts, and supply suplimental warmth if possible.



Ideally a 100 percent Metronidazole would be what would be preferred...

Karyn or Pidgey can guide you with the dosage, but, figure to begin the Medicine once he has had about four more ounces of rehydration solution, and, to begin the meds say in about four or five hours or so.

Meds can be administered with the Syringe and Catheter by dissolving the portion of the Tablet in the Syringe.

To do this, use a shot glass and have the Catheter removed from the Syringe. Put the Tablet part in the Syringe, and draw in a little rehydration solution, say 2mLs.

Let it sit half an hour...then, gently dispense the contents into the shot glass, which will leave some of or most of the undissolved Tablet part in the forward part of the Syringe...slowly crush this by closing the Syringe all the way, hard...and, draw the liquid back in...draw in an inch or so of air, and, put a finger tip over the end, and shake vigorously and repeat till the contents have no lumps.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## beastinfection

Here is a scan of the catheter:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5861250796/

I will modify it as per your instructions.

A) We have now lined his home with white paper towels and will be able to consistently count his poops and more easily document them.

B) I've been hydrating the pigeon for two days now, every hour to two hours 5-7ml of rehydration fluid. I will not give him any more baby bird food and will continue to only hydrate him until further notice. 

C) Whoops.

D) Will stick to this plan.

It is 80°F here at the moment with no air conditioning. Should I be trying to keep him warmer? 
And should I now be using the catheter to administer rehydration fluid? Or should I stick to the dropper?


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## beastinfection

Latest poop/urate:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5860784081


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## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> I have retrieved the catheter & syringe, the juice, and the baby bird handfeeding formula. The pet store did not have anything that was 100% Metronidazole, only API's _General Cure_ which is 250mg Metronidazole and 75mg Praziquantel. I bought it in case it is needed.


Not quite sure what to do about the dosing for the Metronidazole/Praziquantel that was picked up as the dosing for Praziquantel is fairly small 10-20mg/kg, once then again in 14 days. It may be best to dig a bit more for pure Metronidazole, here is a short list of some stores in your area call and see if the have the Metroplex by Seachem, Fishzole by Thomas Labs or any other pure Metronidazole.

Aquarius
2347 Jean-Talon, est
Montreal, QC H2E 1V8, Canada
(514) 721-1949

Aquatica
2315G TransCanadienne
Pointe-Claire, QC H9R 5Z5
TEL: 514-428-0099

Aqua-Tropicale Inc
http://www.aquatropicale.com

Aquarium Du Nord
http://www.aquariumdunord.com/english/english.htm

Good luck,

Karyn


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## Pidgey

I have no idea how to dose that Metronidazole with the Praziquantel in it--you usually don't give them much Praziquantel--only about five milligrams for this guy in one shot and then another one two weeks later. That said, the Metronidazole won't be enough in the one allowable dose to do any good for canker.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

How about a picture of the actual bird?

Pidgey


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## beastinfection

Pidgey said:


> How about a picture of the actual bird?
> 
> Pidgey


Four most recent photos are from moments ago:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## Pidgey

Hmm...that's not primarily canker or dehydration--that's due to some kind of infection. What medications, if any, is the bird on and, if so, what dosage?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

If he's not already on it, I'd get him on the Triple-Sulfa per Karyn's instructions ASAP.

Pidgey


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## beastinfection

Pidgey said:


> Hmm...that's not primarily canker or dehydration--that's due to some kind of infection. What medications, if any, is the bird on and, if so, what dosage?
> 
> Pidgey


I've been advised to wait until the bird is rehydrated and then fed juices and then baby bird food and _then_ I can finally put it on the medications that I have: The Triple Sulfa and Metronidazole.

I went ahead and mixed up the Triple Sulfa in accordance with an earlier post, mixed 500mg with maple syrup in a shot glass. It's sitting in my fridge and ready to go.

What are your thoughts?


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## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> Here is a scan of the catheter:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5861250796/
> 
> I will modify it as per your instructions.
> 
> A) We have now lined his home with white paper towels and will be able to consistently count his poops and more easily document them.
> 
> B) I've been hydrating the pigeon for two days now, every hour to two hours 5-7ml of rehydration fluid. I will not give him any more baby bird food and will continue to only hydrate him until further notice.
> 
> C) Whoops.
> 
> D) Will stick to this plan.
> 
> It is 80°F here at the moment with no air conditioning. Should I be trying to keep him warmer?
> And should I now be using the catheter to administer rehydration fluid? Or should I stick to the dropper?




It has not been clear how much rehydration solution has actually been administered, or how much of that was actually swallowed or absurbed into his system.

How much ( in ML, say ) do you think he has had then in the last 24 hours?



And, we need to know how many poops in the last time period of some sort and to see them. How many in say the last 12 hours, and, images of them so we can see their condition-details.


If he has had enough rehydration, then just continue to use the rehydration solution 50/50 with the Juice and the "Nutrical".

If you diud not get the 'Nutrical', then, 50 percent rehydration solution, 25 percent Juice, and 25 percent Formula...

But, this is ambigious, since I have no idea how you are mixing the formula.

But, say, the 25 percent, could be a rough approximation of amount of the dry powder...you could add to the other liquids.

Serve tepid...warming it in a Pan of warm water ( do not microwave it ).

That mix then, for now, can be his Food, and his liquids in one, tubed in.

Make sure the end of the Catheter is all the way down in to the bottom area of his Crop...dispensing liquids into his mid or upper Esophagus can be disasterous.


Clean the Appliance between uses by drawing in warm water and expelling it.

If you have Apple Cider Vinegar, add four drops to each 5 ml feeding, and, also, use it to draw in and clean the Appliance between uses.


If he is adequately rehydrated now, you can begin the Metronidazole, but please review with us first what the correct dosage would be, and for this we need the concentration of the product you have, and, whether it is a powder or tablet.


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## beastinfection

Pidgey said:


> If he's not already on it, I'd get him on the Triple-Sulfa per Karyn's instructions ASAP.
> 
> Pidgey


Duly noted. I have small blunt syringes for administering medication and I will give him a dose if now is right.


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## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> I've been advised to wait until the bird is rehydrated and then fed juices and then baby bird food and _then_ I can finally put it on the medications that I have: The Triple Sulfa and Metronidazole.
> 
> I went ahead and mixed up the Triple Sulfa in accordance with an earlier post, mixed 500mg with maple syrup in a shot glass. It's sitting in my fridge and ready to go.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


You were not clear if the Metronidazole you mention having is the "General Cure" by API (Metronidazole + Praziquantel), or you went and picked up some pure Metronidazole (Metroplex). Yes, get him going on the Triple-Sulfa.

Karyn


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## beastinfection

> How much ( in ML, say ) do you think he has had then in the last 24 hours?


He has probably had about 50ml of rehydration fluid in the past 24 hours.



> And, we need to know how many poops in the last time period of some sort and to see them. How many in say the last 12 hours, and, images of them so we can see their condition-details.


Maybe 10-15 poops. There is a pic of one of the newest ones up on the flickr now.

The formula is a powder. The back says to mix 50/50, I gave him 5ml of baby bird food mixed this way. I always serve tepid and always pan-heated, I do not have a microwave.

Please advise as to whether 50-60ml of rehydration fluid is enough. I can continue to rehydrate him, he just seems to be getting more and more still and weak.


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## beastinfection

Dobato said:


> You were not clear if the Metronidazole you mention having is the "General Cure" by API (Metronidazole + Praziquantel), or you went and picked up some pure Metronidazole (Metroplex). Yes, get him going on the Triple-Sulfa.
> 
> Karyn


I have not had a chance to pick up the Metroplex. Thank you for locating places that have it in my area though. 

I will get him started on the Triple Sulfa.


----------



## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> He has probably had about 50ml of rehydration fluid in the past 24 hours.
> 
> Please advise as to whether 50-60ml of rehydration fluid is enough. I can continue to rehydrate him, he just seems to be getting more and more still and weak.


This too much fluids IMO, please stop all fluids and food for the moment, giving too much fluids, too soon, to a dehydrated bird can do the opposite of what was intended.

A dehydrated bird needs fluids given in slowly increasing amounts over a few days. I will let Pidgey and Phil better guide you with this.

Did you see my question on the Metronidazole?

I think going forward this bird needs a very clear and precise schedule for fluid amounts and food amounts or we are going to run into trouble.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

Oh, he could be partially dehydrated, but the droppings don't indicate it's bad enough to be the primary problem at this point. And if he's had that much water in the last little bit, we SURELY don't need to worry about it overmuch at this point.

He's either losing motor control of his legs due to an advancing infection in the brain or the kidneys at this point. The motor control nerves to the legs pass through the kidneys and so inflammation (read: swelling) there can pressure the nerves to cause paralysis. HOWEVER... the legs almost seem to be back a bit as though in a slight bit of extension due possibly to a seizure-like mechanism. If that's the case, it would be most likely that it's in the brain.

Pidgey


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## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> I have not had a chance to pick up the Metroplex. Thank you for locating places that have it in my area though.
> 
> I will get him started on the Triple Sulfa.


Not sure if they have it, this was a list of stores that may possibly have it, you will need to call them and check to save you some time and effort.

Just so I am clear, what have you given in the way of food so far and if I were going to do one small thing for him right now, it would be as well as the meds I would get a bit of sugar into him to give his system a boost in energy and blood glucose levels 4-5 mL of fruit juice (apple, mango, a sweet juice) would be good.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

The last poop pictures looked like hydration isn't currently a problem, by the way. Nor would I guess that there was a kidney or GI issue except a basic lack of food. That doesn't have to be a huge problem, either. Do we know the weight or how bony the keel is?

Pidgey


----------



## Dobato

Pidgey said:


> The last poop pictures looked like hydration isn't currently a problem, by the way. Nor would I guess that there was a kidney or GI issue except a basic lack of food. That doesn't have to be a huge problem, either. Do we know the weight or how bony the keel is?
> 
> Pidgey


I agree Pidgey, I think he just needs some simple carbs for a bit of energy right now and we'll slowly work on the rest.

Karyn


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## John_D

The amount of rehydration mix given to the bird is ample, though it would do no harm for him to have the same solution instead of plain water, at a 'normal' intake level for a couple of days.

I'd agree with Pidgey ... that poop is what I'd think of as a starvation poop. The symptoms the poster described some posts back suggest PMV, and also indicate why the bird was unable to eat on his own.

Frankly, I don't see why canker is thought to be a primary issue in this bird. Until the bird is stable and getting some food in him, poops are not going to be a reliable diagnostic factor (not that a picture of a poop, just of itself, is normally definitive anyway).


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## pdpbison

It looks exactly like what Canker and subsequent privation/dehydration look like here in the Southern Mojave when I get such Pigeons in.


If there is a Bacterial component, it is for now a secondary worry to the primary issues, and, an Antibiotic may be administered soon after beginning the ( ideally, plain, pure ) Metronidazole.

On reflection, I agree, that the combo med should be replaced with a plain Metrnodizale to permit practical and effective Dosing of the desired Medication, and to eliminate the additional anti-Helminthic which when in a combination such as the on hand version is, the combined Medicine can not be dosed high enough in the Metronidazole aspect without danger of over-dose of the Praziquantel component...since the proportions you are stuck with are not possible to seperate.




Pidgey said:


> Hmm...that's not primarily canker or dehydration--that's due to some kind of infection. What medications, if any, is the bird on and, if so, what dosage?
> 
> Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Re-read Karyn and Pidgey's Posts about Praziquantel dosage - I am afraid that by the time a dose in the obligatory combo form has enough Metronidazole in it to begin helping the Bird, the Praziquantel would be into an overdose range.


If you had the correct and plain, pure Metronidazole and could tell us the form and concentration for the dose to be calculated...you could start now...

Can you obtain the correct kind today?





beastinfection said:


> I've been advised to wait until the bird is rehydrated and then fed juices and then baby bird food and _then_ I can finally put it on the medications that I have: The Triple Sulfa and Metronidazole.
> 
> I went ahead and mixed up the Triple Sulfa in accordance with an earlier post, mixed 500mg with maple syrup in a shot glass. It's sitting in my fridge and ready to go.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


----------



## John_D

The main thing, as I believe Karyn and Pidgey have suggested, is getting some food into him. A baby pigeon only a week old can be given around 15 mls of formula 2 or 3 times a day, so if we consider this bird to now be sufficiently rehydrated then 20 mls twice a day could be a good start. If his digestive system is functioning reasonably well, then there should be an improvement in his poops.


----------



## Pidgey

Do his legs seem to be kind of held back most or all of the time?

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

John_D said:


> The main thing, as I believe Karyn and Pidgey have suggested, is getting some food into him. A baby pigeon only a week old can be given around 15 mls of formula 2 or 3 times a day, so if we consider this bird to now be sufficiently rehydrated then 20 mls twice a day could be a good start. If his digestive system is functioning reasonably well, then there should be an improvement in his poops.


Oh?

I guess somehow I never had said anything about Food or Nutriments?


Or graduating them?


Far as forcing so much food as you are suggesting John, that is a good way to kill the Bird.

Starvation...when followed by suddenly being fed too many Calories too soon, will kill them.

Hence, the Calorie intake ought to be graduated over the first several days.


...sigh...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## beastinfection

> Re-read Karyn and Pidgey's Posts about Praziquantel dosage - I am afraid that by the time a dose in the obligatory combo form has enough Metronidazole in it to begin helping the Bird, the Praziquantel would be into an overdose range.
> 
> 
> If you had the correct and plain, pure Metronidazole and could tell us the form and concentration for the dose to be calculated...you could start now...
> 
> Can you obtain the correct kind today?


Don't worry, I wasn't considering dosing him with the combo med. I haven't had a chance to get the 100% metronidazole though. I do not have a car so it unfortunately takes more time to get things accomplished; gathering the supplies today took close to three hours as Montreal is very spread out. First thing tomorrow morning I will return the combo med and purchase the 100% metronidazole. 

Out of curiousity, are these medications cheaper in the states? 16.99$ for Triple-Sulfa and 18.99$ for the combo med, before taxes. 



> If his digestive system is functioning reasonably well, then there should be an improvement in his poops.


With the very little food I have given him (5ml), his poops have become much more green and not nearly as white or clear. Can anyone tell me if this is a good, bad, or insignificant sign? Or is that not enough information to come to a conclusion yet. I suppose the paper towels could easily have absorbed some of the liquid too.



> Do his legs seem to be kind of held back most or all of the time?
> 
> Pidgey


Not when he first came home with me. Two days ago he just had trouble walking, his legs didn't seem to work quite right and would slip to the sides. He constantly lost his balance. In the past day he has spent much more time barely moving at all, face-planted into the paper towels in his box or laying on his side with his feet extended out. Sometimes he almost looks like he's sitting on a nest but his legs are not held under him, there's no stability.


----------



## beastinfection

pdpbison said:


> Hence, the Calorie intake ought to be graduated over the first several days.
> 
> Phil


In an earlier post you suggest a 50/25/25 of rehydration solution, juice, and baby bird powdered mix. Can you tell me how many mL I should be feeding him daily, and how frequently?

Thank you again for everything.


----------



## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> In an earlier post you suggest a 50/25/25 of rehydration solution, juice, and baby bird powdered mix. Can you tell me how many mL I should be feeding him daily, and how frequently?
> 
> Thank you again for everything.



Hi b-i, 


Prop him up on some rumpled or loosely rolled Towels in some sort of way so he is not 'face planting'...

Lets pretend you just got him today...

We can see he is in dire straights...

You will get plain 100 percent Metronidazole absolutely "A.S.A.P.".

You have appliances for Tube Feeding, and supplies for liquid formul. 

Rehydration has been underway well enough for his Liquid partial-formula containing Nutriments to be administered in small amounts so as not to kill him from too many Calories too soon after his privation period..

As for the 50/25/25...if you want to try it, 5 ml now, 5 ml in five hours...5 ml first thing in the morning...5 ml five hours later...5 ml five hours later...would probably be fine...and it can go up after that to 7 ml.


He might still be able to make it, but at this point it is doubtful...but do your best to get the right Metronidazole as soon as you possibly can, and, let us know the concentration of the product so we can figure out the dose.


Fingers crossed..!



Phil
Lv


----------



## Dobato

As Phil suggested, get him propped up in a "donut" towel set-up here is what it will look like: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6. 

Please follow Phil instructions for amounts of fluids/food and intervals, meds a somewhat cheaper in the US, but now outrageously so, please let us know how you make out with the Metronidazole.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Sometimes I prop them up into a corner sort of, not all the way into a corner, but I use a corner to set a high enough rumpled pile of soft Cloth, for the Pigeon to lean into just-as-they-are, in this sort of stance and Leg thing, which sometimes they can get into having in some illnesses or heavy blunt trauma events, especially after privation periods.

Usually the Pigeon once assuming this sort of posture, wishes to continue with it or maintain it, so one uses rumpled cloths or rumpled cloths over a Can of Beans or over a couple cans of Tuna or whatewver, something to have a fitted soft form for the Pigeon to sort of lean in to and be supported by, so he is closer to a normal stance and not leaning or tipping over forward.

Canker has many 'faces' as far as how an afflicted Pigeon may appear or behave or have troubles in standing, eating or walking.

Central Nervous System or various extremity or Leg Nerve injury or insult or constriction from inflammed surrounding or involved and infected Tissues, can effect Nerves and reflexes...which is some of what I think we are seeing in this Pigeon's demeanor.


----------



## John_D

pdpbison said:


> Oh? I guess somehow I never had said anything about Food or Nutriments? Or graduating them? Far as forcing so much food as you are suggesting John, that is a good way to kill the Bird. Starvation...when followed by suddenly being fed too many Calories too soon, will kill them.
> Hence, the Calorie intake ought to be graduated over the first several days.


Not disputing that you have mentioned feeding - just expressing agreement that it is priority. Too little food can result in calories being burnt up just in thermoregulation. The optimum quantity/frequency may well lie somewhere between the two views.


----------



## beastinfection

I have 100% plain metronidazole now, 5g in powdered form, Seachem's Metroplex. Please advise as he is not looking well.


----------



## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> I have 100% plain metronidazole now, 5g in powdered form, Seachem's Metroplex. Please advise as he is not looking well.


Well, glad he is still with us.

Inside there should be a small scoop, measure out 2 1/2 scoops (250mg) and add this to 5mL of pancake syrup or honey (5mL is 1 teaspoon full, but you have to use a measuring/cooking teaspoon to be accurate), stir well, let sit 10 minutes, stir well again, you will now have a 5% Metronidazole suspension (50mg/mL).

I want you to give him 0.30cc (this is to the third line on a 1cc syringe and will be about 6 drops, 15mg) do this every 12 hours for the coming days and we'll tell you when to stop.

Keep in the refrigerator between use and stir well before each use.

Karyn


----------



## beastinfection

He's been dosed with the Metronidazole, hopefully he'll pull through. Thank you for your extensive help thus far. 

Also here is a picture of his latest poop:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5863735717


----------



## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> He's been dosed with the Metronidazole, hopefully he'll pull through. Thank you for your extensive help thus far.
> 
> Also here is a picture of his latest poop:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5863735717


What have you feed him since last night and how much?

Karyn


----------



## John_D

Still looks like starvation poops to me


----------



## Dobato

As John mentions, it looks like this bird has not received much, if any food.

For now, something simple, go get a slice of stone ground bread and tear off little pieces, about the size of a pea and feed it to this little guy like in this video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Start with an 1/8 of a slice for now and let see what comes out the back.

Karyn


----------



## beastinfection

Dobato said:


> What have you feed him since last night and how much?
> 
> Karyn


5mL of 50/25/25 Rehydration Solution/Cherry Juice/Baby Bird Formula @ 7:00 this morning.

4mL of the same @ noon.


----------



## John_D

Karyn is, in my view, correct. Something easily digestible. My own opinion would be little and often, until he shows he can handle it.

What the video shows is also the correct way to feed peas and corn (old standby).


----------



## pdpbison

Hi b-i,

How much of this 'formula-soution' did he get yesterday?


AND, is his Crop passing this alright?


Lets please not be feeding any Bread, since that could clog his Crop and prevent any passing of anything whatever...

We do not know what he may have for inflammitory conditions and inflammitory debris in his Proventriculus - hence the consideration from the onset, to provide Liquid Foods, or, at least liquid foods which may also contain fine particles of hydrated powder 'formula' product.


Gently feel his Crop off and on, and, also, let us know how many OF these poops he made overnight or since last Paper Towel Cage liner change...so we can gauge how things are passing.


Probably you would be alright to feed a heavier mixture of the three constituants now - which would be, in effect, 10 mLs of well hydrated in advance Formula-Water ( and some Juice ) and, to do so two more times to-day - so long as things fed prior do appear to be passing alright.

Formula using the powder has to be made well in advance to have timne to hydrate...so, mix up a Teacup to not quite 1/2 full of powder and then add enough water to cover it with say 1/2 inch Water to spare on top of it...no stirring, just pour the Water and Juice on the powder, in a Teacup.

Let it sit in the refrigerator for a few hours.

And THEN add however much more Water it needs to be a soupy mix, about like Melted Ice Cream would be if outdoors on a really hot day...or about like reguar Whipping Vream would be.

The Teacup with it's contents is then warmed in a pan of warm Water...and, fed via the Syringe-Catheter.


If you mix and feed with no intervening time for the formula to properly hydrate, it can or will go wrong in the Bird's Crop, since it is not hydrated well it will thicken in the Crop forming a 'slug' of thick rubbery formula which then starts to rot and ferment or clog the Crop.


----------



## beastinfection

Roughly 10mL yesterday of formula/juice/powder.

He has probably pooped 7-10 times in the past 24 hours, it's hard to tell because his talons tear up the paper towels and his thrashing smears the poops into each other and onto the pigeon himself.

If I am correctly feeling his crop, it feels very empty.

In the fridge I have now set aside a cup of formula with water/juice poured on top, when it is well saturated I'll feed him. Thank you for this advice as I wouldn't have known not to feed him the formula so soon after mixing.


----------



## pdpbison

Okeydoke...


Poop image to me shows Bile tinting but otherwise appears to show fecal matter also, and to a meaningful degree.

So, yeahhhh, up the chow to-day so maybe like three or four 7.5 mL meals of the new 'Formula' recipe...staggered fairly evenly between now and beddie-bye-time, and, make sure this is 'soupy' and or also do a couple in-between /5 mL Syringe-Catheters of Water, in to the Crop so he is well hydrated.


The Cherry Juice ( Goji Berry Juice - any Health Food Store - would be better ) is good in various ways, among which is to help detoxify his system.


Birds in the condition he is in, if they die, go into full rigour mortis in seconds, instead of over many hours, because all of their Muscles and Tissues are full of toxic by-products of their illness and or from conditions incidental to the illness.

This is an enormous Body load and Antioxidents and somewhat Acid-Fruits ( and Apple Cider Vinegar, say, in addition, to the tune of three or four drops to every five mL of formula or Water ) can help this, as well as helping the Metronidazle to work better, and to discourage various undesrieable Organisms form making headway in the Crop and upper GI.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi beastinfection,


Anyway, you had mentioned success with the Tube feeding and or using the 'Tube' apparatis for administering Medicine Solutions.

I just want to do a fast review to be sure you are in good shape with this.


When I do either, I have the Pigeon in the 'Burrito Bird' mode, spigotted vertically behind my knees, as I sit under a good bright downpointing Desk Light.

I pull their Head and Neck up so their Neck is fully extended, straight and vertical, and, I open their Beak, looking into their Mouth and Throat, to clearly distinguish the Esophagus ( Throat ) from their Trachia ( Wind Pipe ) so as to be absolutely clear and certain I am putting the Lubed Catheter down into the Esophagus ( Throat ).

This then goes in so the tip is about in the bottom of the Crop, and, one dispense, slowly, the contents of the Syringe.


Catheter must go in very easily, and, if resistence is met, pull back up a little, partly twirl the Catheter, and, gently feel for a no resistence path.


If one were to accidently get the Catheter into the Trachia, this would kill the Bird with no hope of revival or correction...so...make sure to be very clear about what you are doing and to do it under a ghood bright Light so you can see well.


If one encounters resistence ( especially with a Canker Pigeon who may have lesions or frail Esophagul Tissues ) and one is not extremely gentle in how one withdraws and re-attempts and feels for a no-resistence-path for the Catheter, one can push the tip of the Catheter through the frail or lesion weakened areas of the Esophagul Wall, and, end up dispensing the contents of the Syringe into the interstitial regions outside of the Esophagus/Crop, thus, killing the Bird over a slow and horrible death lasting however many days, as those materials ferment and permit Bacteria to breed and so on, with no recourse or remedy other than major Surgery by some very very expensive Avian Veterinary Surgeon, if even that would save them at that point, and it probably would not.


So...



Best wishes you two!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## beastinfection

I certainly hope that I haven't pushed through his esophagus, what an awful way to go.. Whenever I have encountered resistance I've done as you said and gently found the correct path. I'm reasonably sure that all food & water has made it into the crop, whew. 

This is the latest poop, as he was being put into burrito bird:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5864784665

It looks very different, I hope this is a good sign?

Thank you thank you for devoting so much time to this, you and everyone on this forum.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi b-i,



That is a pretty weird poop/urate there...not sure what to make of it other than that is what came out, and, one way or another, between the Cherry Juice and the Meds and so on, his poops right now are likely going to be a little weird.


The meds may be effecting the illness where slime and mucous will be forming in areas of the GI which have lesions...so, this too will be doing odd things to the poops for a while.

There is fecal matter present, so...foods are apparently passing...


I know it is still a little early to be asking, but...does he seem any better? Any little hints or cues he is feeling better yet? Look of Eye, Stance, Posture..?


Is he getting both the Metronidazole, and, the Triple-Sulfa?



Phil
L v


----------



## pdpbison

Actually...that poop looks like it has a lot of undigested Honey going on.

If you don't mind, would you see if you can tell if that is so? Smell, tactile, and so on?


----------



## beastinfection

> Actually...that poop looks like it has a lot of undigested Honey going on.
> 
> If you don't mind, would you see if you can tell if that is so? Smell, tactile, and so on?


I unfortunately already disposed of it but if it happens again I'll take a "reading". 



> I know it is still a little early to be asking, but...does he seem any better? Any little hints or cues he is feeling better yet? Look of Eye, Stance, Posture..?
> 
> 
> Is he getting both the Metronidazole, and, the Triple-Sulfa?


He is receiving both the Metronidazole & the Triple-Sulfa. As far as better... He seems more energetic after feedings. I gave him maybe five bread crumbs today before you posted to hold off on bread, small small pieces, and he tried to eat for himself from my hand and showed an actual interest in food which seems promising.

But physically he closes his eyes a lot more now and his posturing is more bizarre than ever. When he came home with me he just seemed drunk, able to walk and fly but not very well. Now though I've caught him lying on his back with his feet in the air a couple of times; I thought he was dead. His legs seem stiff and always extended, he always needs to lean on something to stand. He seems weaker than when he arrived and more tired. His neck seems more extended more often and his head droops down between his feet. When I hold him he closes his eyes and frequently sleeps....


----------



## pdpbison

Hi b-i,



Glad to hear is has shown a little interest in Seeds!

That is a good sign.


Of course, he should not have any seeds though untill we are confident his system is able to handle them.

The formula will have plenty of Nutrition...and this alleviates any value which Bread could have offered, anyway, so, all is fine there with that - he can have Formula, to which the Juice and ACV drops and so on are added, and, he will get by very well on that for the time being.


He may have some inflammation effecting the Kidneys or their surrounds, which can cause constriction to his Sciatic Nerves, which will then cause his Legs to be stiff or limp or to be uncomfortable anyway, like when one's Leg falls 'asleep' and is in the half way thawed out stage.

He may have a mild systemic Bacterial infection which is effecting him in odd ways, and or he may have had a serious flying injury or mis-hap just prior to your finding him, with some attenting Neurological issues which have not cleared up yet.


Many of the 'Hit a Window' Pigeons I have had, showed a similar Stiff Leg thing, and, had to be propped up on soft rumpled cloths in a corner, since they could not stand or walk and would fall over forwards if not propped up...and would not relax their Legs, so...

So, this might be what happened to him, or, if not, then whatever it is which had happened, or is happenning, shows a similar manifestation anyway, to some of the instances of Pigeons who have flown hard into a high Wndow and fell to the ground from there.


The 'Window Pigeons' I have had often took quite a while to get over the condition...and for their overall Neurological/co-ordination skills to return to be able to walk, or, to fly again.


So, anyway, how many mL of formula did he get to-day? 


And, how is his Crop doing as for passing it's contents well?


Best wishes!


Phil
L v


----------



## Dobato

I had another look at the photos and re-read the thread, and for what it's worth, I am still notice unconvinced this bird is not suffering the effects of organophosphate poisoning, and not infection or injury. There are a few things that could be done to help detoxify his body if this is the case.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Karyn,


Far as I know, Organophosphate Poisoning would have a distinct smell to the whole Bird.

In addition to which, it would tend to produce an over-lucid over-vivid sort of facial and eye appearance, open Beak Panting, and over high Heart and Respiration rates, if not full blown seisures and thrashing.

There are many possible kinds of Poisons a Pigeon could get into, or, have put into Seeds set out to poison them, and, it is beyond my experience or knowledge to guess them.

Organophosphate Poisoned Pigeons I have had, did not show this sort of posture or Stiff Leg condition...though, Pigeons who had flew into a Window, or, who had been hit by a Car, have shown it.


Of course a Popisoned or Sick Pigeon can also fly into a Window or get hit by a Car...etc...


I dunno...


What would you think would be good for this Pigeon at this point, which could be added to his regimen?



Best wishes!


Phil
L v


----------



## Dobato

Phil, what you are describing is an acute poisoning, where a bird consumed a good amount of the poison, however, they can still consume a lesser amount of poison, so they don't display the acute symptoms you list, but go on, a day or two after the initial event, to develop an intermediate syndrome, which includes, ataxia, convulsions, muscle weakness and paralysis, plus dystonia (odd postures), that this bird is displaying.

Ideally, he would be given a shot of atropine, as doing this should indicate quite quickly if there was an improvement in condition, but doing this is unlikely as a vet would need to do this and I am not sure where the caregiver would stand on trying to arrange this.

We could use a few detoxifying agents from the health food store, Milk-Thistle (Silymarin), Lactulose and N-Acetyl Cysteine to help detoxify him and use low doses of Benadryl as anticholinergic agent to block some of the effects the excess acetylcholine in the blood caused by the poison.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Karyn,


Well...I have had probably 25 or so Avitrol or other Organophosphate Poisoned Pigeons, and, allways, they had the odor.

Those having severe fits/contortions and thrashing and hyper-respiration and so on, when they survived, in a day or two appeared every inch a Normal Pigeon again.

I never had one instance of any after-effects or post-toxicity-syndrome.


None of the "Hit a Window" ( seen to do so by the person who then gathered them up ) or "Got hit by a Car Windshield or Grille" ( ditto ) Pigeons who had the 'Stiff Leg' thing, none of those ever showed any suggestion of Organophosphate Poisoning, none had the odor, none had fits or thrashing or 'Wild eye' or hyper vivid, hyper respioratory symptoms associated with Avitrol or other kindred products.


As for the Oprganophosphate Pigeons I have had, whether light or medium or severe Poisoning, all who survived the initial 24 hours or so, returned to normal ( if maybe a little tender ) in a few days, with no observable legacy or symptoms.


Some of my interest in seeing the ACV used ( aside from that it helps the Metronidazole work better ), and, also, the Cherry Juice ( Or Goji Berry Juice would be better ) , is to aid in the detoxifing the Bird's system.

Any Herbs which are understood to do this or to aid in this, seems to me would be good to add also, such as Milk Thistle...yes, definitely.

Atropine, as you relay, would not be an easy thing to arrange for this Bird, nor do I understand how it would be benificial at this point, even if this were an 'Avitrol' or related Poison Pigeon, since his system would have cleared the Poison days ago.


What are you basing your Organophosphate Poisoning model on to feel that this Pigeon is suffering from it, or, suffering from what you think may be a legacy in the wake of it?


Canker can effect their Sciatic Nerves, causing the Legs to be limp, weak, or held out Stiff...if maybe seldom seen in that association, it can happen.

I suspect other infections/illnesses can do it also.


Anyway, nothing not to like about any benign and not making heavy Body-Loads, of suppliments or special items which you think may help this Bird, of course!


Just personally, his symptoms do not co-respond to any instance of Organophosphate Poisoning I have seen and dealt with.

None of the Organophosphate Pigeons I dealt with showed this syndrome at any phase of their throes, or, of their recovery or post recovery.


Strychnine can do odd things to the Muscles...and it too has a distinct Odor...but, I have never dealt with it.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


----------



## pdpbison

Anyway...

In my experience, this Pigeon is displaying symptoms which I can associate with instances of hard, high, Window Strike, or, Car-Hit in a Head on sort of way ( as distinct from hit from the side )...and, we have also been seeing signs we can associate with Canker/Trichomoniasis or maybe Giardia or some related Protozoan illness effecting the consitency and color of the Urates ( high spent Leucocyte presence ).

In addition to these, we understand the Pigeon had suffered some pertiod of privation ( which would only have made any pre-existing conditions worse ).


That is my 'read' on this.


That's the best I can do as far as comparing this Pigeon's condition, to known conditions I have dealt with, in which similar signs or a similar syndrome was noted.


So, not trying to say additional benign or benificient Treatments or suppliments ought not to be considered or given...since, of course, no harm if they are.


Just saying, far as my experience, the evaluation I would ennunciate, is as I have stated above.


----------



## Dobato

pdpbison said:


> What are you basing your Organophosphate Poisoning model on to feel that this Pigeon is suffering from it, or, suffering from what you think may be a legacy in the wake of it?
> Best wishes!
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Phil, I am basing my thoughts on a few things, first, although first showing signs of ataxia, this bird has gone from standing, to being incapacitated, and not incapacitated as you may see in weakness from infection, but odd body and leg positions. Two, I have spent time reading a good deal of the old threads here and on a case I was involved in a while back, it reminded me of another case on the forum, where a bird was poisoned, both cases involved the loss of the use of legs from paralysis. While reading on the case I was involved in, to better educate myself on Organophosphate poison,, one of the things that stuck in my mind were some of the neuro issues describing a paralysis or intermediate syndrome after the acute phase where a weakness/paralysis of the body limbs was pronounced, if you look at the photos again, it's the odd angles they are at, that draws my attention.

Now mind you, most of the stuff out there is on humans, but I would think that some of the very same issues would be attributable in animals as well (as I think both of the cases on these pigeons show).

May not be poisoning, but it more fits to my mind, than infection and/or injury. Also, by way of explanation, there is the possibility with the smells you are expecting to be present may not be there with every form of a given poison in different geographical areas or coming from different companies.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/injured-pigeon-in-toronto-20092.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/you-guys-are-great-amp-i-need-help-43407-2.html

Karyn


----------



## John_D

Looking back, it appears that this bird was showing some neurological symptoms prior to now. The point I particularly noticed was that the bird did not seem _unwilling_ to pick up food, so much as _unable _to peck at it successfully. Unfortunately, we don't have any details on that.

So far, the bird has really had very little food for a few days as far as I can see from b-i's posts, which may be 'skewing the data' so to speak?


----------



## beastinfection

> Looking back, it appears that this bird was showing some neurological symptoms prior to now. The point I particularly noticed was that the bird did not seem unwilling to pick up food, so much as unable to peck at it successfully. Unfortunately, we don't have any details on that.
> 
> So far, the bird has really had very little food for a few days as far as I can see from b-i's posts, which may be 'skewing the data' so to speak?


The bird _has_ had very little food and _no_ solid food. I have the formula to feed him and the rehydration fluid, if someone would give me any estimate of roughly _how much_ food to give him each day and _how often_, it would be an incredible help. At first I was afraid of giving him food too soon, then _too much_ food at once, now not enough... I have never had to hand-feed a pigeon before and having no precedent makes forming a schedule very difficult.

I will provide any details I can about his attempt to eat seeds. Without knowing exactly what you are looking for, I can say this: he didn't toss seeds over his shoulder or jerk his head like some videos of PMV that I have seen. He just couldn't actually coordinate his beak with the seed, always pecking at ground where no seeds actually were. Then he'd look rather confused, walk in circles, find the seed again and try again, lose interest entirely and just kind of meander away. Same with the water: he seemed interested in the cup itself and would circle back to it but never tried to drink. Then he'd just walk off.



> Ideally, he would be given a shot of atropine, as doing this should indicate quite quickly if there was an improvement in condition, but doing this is unlikely as a vet would need to do this and I am not sure where the caregiver would stand on trying to arrange this.


Here is where I stand on this: if it is _free_, which seems doubtful, I could possibly take him to a vet. I have not been able to go to work since I brought the pigeon home and have spent, literally, every last penny on making him better. I'm 25, eating about as much as the pigeon, and have 2.65$ left in my bank account with no income coming in at the moment. I cannot afford to get him Milk Thistle, Lactulose, or N-Acetyl Cysteine. 

I've also held out on a vet because I feel like city pigeons are not taken seriously as pets or even _animals_ much of the time, and did not think a vet would be interested in helping me heal a wounded "pest". Maybe I am biased and incorrect.

Do you think he'll make it if he does not receive any treatment in this vein? Would I be better off trying to find a wild bird rescue and having them care for him? If not, when he is at least somewhat better I can hopefully leave him for a few hours at a time to go work and then bring him home all the things he and I need. 



> So, anyway, how many mL of formula did he get to-day?


Just between 6:30PM-10:30PM I fed him 20mL of formula and 5mL of rehydration fluid. I do not know if this is enough. If you or anyone here will tell me how much formula he should be taking in and how regularly I will make sure he gets as much as he needs.

Also if palpation of the crop on a daily basis is necessary/recommended, can someone tell me exactly what I am feeling for in the crop and how to know that I am performing a valid palpation?

Also these are his nighttime poops:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5866329423

Thank you again, I care so much for this little guy and only want to see him flourish, however possible.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi b-i,


How many poops in the last 24 hours?

And, can you post an image showing what you feel is a poop representing their average volume ( ideally, one of the freshest ones available ) ?


Meals of 10 mL of formula proper ( as mixed and ready-to-go ), and, Water between meals...with a day's total of 40 mLs, ought to be plenty for this Pigeon presently.

So four fairly evenly spaced 10 mL formula meals in 24 hours, with Water being given between meals, would be just fine for now.


I doubt any Wild Life rescue would give this Pigeon the time, deference or care it needs...they do not have time, personel or usualy, enough experience or interest, anyway.


I was under the impression somehow, that this Pigeon was having the stiff, straight Leg thing from the beginning.

If this is not so, if they had been walking and so on, and, the stiff straight leg, falling forward stuff began or evolved subsequent to your having got them...

Then this to me does suggest it is not from a Window Strike or similar flying mis-adventure event, but, is more likely a toxemia or Bacterial issue, or an inflammation related Nerve condition incidental to some infection even though a Trichomoniasis infection ( Canker located somewhere or more than one somewhere ) could probably do it also.

Far as I know, Organophosphate Poisoning, when in the forms of any of the commercial Avicides of that kind, regardless of brand name or provenance, will cause the Bird to have a sort of Burnt Suger like odor, only the odor is more sickly and yucky smelling than Burnt Sugar is.


We get occasional instances here on the forum, where the person writing in says their new found Pigeon has been 'poisoned', and, this is their interpretation of the symptoms, whether or not there is any actual basis for it.


Just like I get people calling me who insist a Pigeon they just found has Broken Legs ( because it is not standing or walking ) or Broken Wings ( because it is not flying ) when neither of those turn out to be what is going on at all, once I am able to examine the Bird.


Avicides of whatever base, tend to act upon the Bird's Central Nervous System...and with this, they effect it globally, rather than effecting the use or condition of only one set of Limbs.


Anyway, b-i, you are such a good sport to be caring for this lovely Pigeon.

High compliments and regards and praise from me to you, that you would do this, and, be doing so well for having no prior experience.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


----------



## pdpbison

Dobato said:


> Phil, I am basing my thoughts on a few things, first, although first showing signs of ataxia, this bird has gone from standing, to being incapacitated, and not incapacitated as you may see in weakness from infection, but odd body and leg positions. Two, I have spent time reading a good deal of the old threads here and on a case I was involved in a while back, it reminded me of another case on the forum, where a bird was poisoned, both cases involved the loss of the use of legs from paralysis. While reading on the case I was involved in, to better educate myself on Organophosphate poison,, one of the things that stuck in my mind were some of the neuro issues describing a paralysis or intermediate syndrome after the acute phase where a weakness/paralysis of the body limbs was pronounced, if you look at the photos again, it's the odd angles they are at, that draws my attention.
> 
> Now mind you, most of the stuff out there is on humans, but I would think that some of the very same issues would be attributable in animals as well (as I think both of the cases on these pigeons show).
> 
> May not be poisoning, but it more fits to my mind, than infection and/or injury. Also, by way of explanation, there is the possibility with the smells you are expecting to be present may not be there with every form of a given poison in different geographical areas or coming from different companies.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/injured-pigeon-in-toronto-20092.html
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/you-guys-are-great-amp-i-need-help-43407-2.html
> 
> Karyn




Hi Karyn,


I myself do not see how an Avicide of any kind would have a delayed effect like this.

But, anyone can use any kind of poisonous substance to poison Birds with, where no one would ever be able to figure out what it had been, without spending a fortune on huge batteries of sophisticated tests, or even then, there are thousands of possible substances which could poison anyone, Birds included, which would leave no definitive answer.

If a Poison had occasioned a delayed or Legacy-effect, which has damaged some area of the Bird's CNS, I do not know what we could do about it now, anyway, other than to provide good general nutrition, with deferential suppliments...and let time see how things may heal and or re-form.


Strep might be able to do this...Staff might be able to do this...

I dunno!


Maybe stay with the triple-sulfa a few more days, and, if no improves are seen in the Leg department, we cuold try electing a different kind of Antibiotic ( and, if we do so soon enuogh, I or someone else could Mail some to b-i to use ).


Otherwise...

I don't know what to do on this...other than to keep Brain-Storming on it and to see what sort of ideas we can discuss.


Phil
Lv


----------



## pdpbison

Hi b-i,


Please post some new images of the Pigeon themselves, taken from their own Eye level...

Side views, front view...


Phil
Lv


----------



## beastinfection

Here are all the poops he made last night:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5866329423

I will try to snap a photo of a typical poop too if these aren't informative enough.

Also I'll start to administer 40mL of formula daily with water in the interims, thanks for giving me a definitive volume to aim for. With the medications hopefully addressing any possible bacterial or parasitic causes of his condition, maybe he will regain his strength. He is certainly a tough little pigeon!


----------



## Dobato

beastinfection said:


> Here is where I stand on this: if it is _free_, which seems doubtful, I could possibly take him to a vet. I have not been able to go to work since I brought the pigeon home and have spent, literally, every last penny on making him better. I'm 25, eating about as much as the pigeon, and have 2.65$ left in my bank account with no income coming in at the moment. I cannot afford to get him Milk Thistle, Lactulose, or N-Acetyl Cysteine.
> 
> Do you think he'll make it if he does not receive any treatment in this vein? Would I be better off trying to find a wild bird rescue and having them care for him? If not, when he is at least somewhat better I can hopefully leave him for a few hours at a time to go work and then bring him home all the things he and I need.


That is the reason I phrased my statement the way I did, there are a lot of people who come here with kind hearts who want to help a sick or injured bird they have found, but are not in a position financially to spend money on a vet or meds so we try and do the best we can with the situation. I can see you have already extended yourself picking up the Kaytee formula, Triple-Sulfa and Metronidazole, so this speaks to the kind of person you are and your heart.

Right now, you are this bird's best chance IMO, as a wildlife center of Human Society is just not going to spend the time and resources that it will take to give this bird any chance at getting well again, they will PTS this bird almost certainly (put to sleep)

To me, at this point, it's been a few days and this bird has shown no indication his crop or GI can't handle food, so I would be feeding the formula at a consistency where he will be getting more food value right now (meaning more Kaytee in the mix, but still runny), the 10mL per meal if fine, but once he has shown he can handle this, I would increase it to 15mL 3-4 times a day.

Phil, other than Avitrol, there are any number of other organophosphates, mostly insecticides, that can cause poisoning, here's from one web site:



> Agents commonly causing Intermediate Syndrome are fenthion, onocrotophos, dimethoate, methyl parathion, diazinon, ethylparathion, malathion, and sumithion.


I don't want to turn this in to a who's right situation, I am just suggesting we be open to the possibility that a poison is the causative agent here.

There is one dropping in the mix that does look like he is finally getting some solids in his dropping, which is a good thing to see.

Karyn


----------



## beastinfection

pdpbison said:


> Hi b-i,
> 
> 
> Please post some new images of the Pigeon themselves, taken from their own Eye level...
> 
> Side views, front view...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Here are some new photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]


----------



## pdpbison

beastinfection said:


> Here are all the poops he made last night:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5866329423
> 
> I will try to snap a photo of a typical poop too if these aren't informative enough.
> 
> Also I'll start to administer 40mL of formula daily with water in the interims, thanks for giving me a definitive volume to aim for. With the medications hopefully addressing any possible bacterial or parasitic causes of his condition, maybe he will regain his strength. He is certainly a tough little pigeon!



A Salmonalla could do this also, and, can make for Poop/Urates similar to those I usually associate with Canker/Trichomoniasis.

I was looking for Salmonella reference info and images last night, found some, forgot where...but, this Pigeon's poops/urates are about as seen in those reference images.


These sorts of poop/urate combinations, here, in the Southern MOjave, have tended to clear up weill wheb being treated with Canker meds...so, I Tend to lean that way from habit.

Of course, other causes can occasion similar looking configurations/colors/textures 'profiles'.


Too, various slamonellas seem to require differing deferential Meds...so sometimes one has to try a particular med for a while, and, see how it does...and, then, to try another one, if the first one did not do the trick.


----------



## beastinfection

Dobato said:


> Right now, you are this bird's best chance IMO, as a wildlife center of Human Society is just not going to spend the time and resources that it will take to give this bird any chance at getting well again, they will PTS this bird almost certainly (put to sleep)
> 
> To me, at this point, it's been a few days and this bird has shown no indication his crop or GI can't handle food, so I would be feeding the formula at a consistency where he will be getting more food value right now (meaning more Kaytee in the mix, but still runny), the 10mL per meal if fine, but once he has shown he can handle this, I would increase it to 15mL 3-4 times a day.


Thanks Karyn, I will keep him in my care and take your advice on the food.


----------



## Dobato

BI, thanks for the new photos, I want to revise a suggestion I made on feeding after looking at the pics. This bird appears to be in almost full paralysis, so DO NOT feed the 15mL I suggested, and I think even 10 may be too much for him in this condition, I would think that something more along 5-7mL at a time would be in order, with the kind of motor control he is exhibiting, it will not take much for liquids to come back up from his crop, where he will aspirate it, which may cause immediate death or aspiration pneumonia. So, small meals, wait until the crop empties, 1-2 hours, the 5-7mL again through the day, do the best you can, I know you must have other commitments as well.

You may be doing it, but make sure you got him set up in a "donut" for support:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Dobato said:


> Phil, other than Avitrol, there are any number of other organophosphates, mostly insecticides, that can cause poisoning, here's from one web site:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to turn this in to a who's right situation, I am just suggesting we be open to the possibility that a poison is the causative agent here.
> 
> There is one dropping in the mix that does look like he is finally getting some solids in his dropping, which is a good thing to see.
> 
> Karyn



Hi Karyn, 

What I am saying, is that none of that fits with any Organophoshate experiences I have had.

If this is a delayed effect of some Organophosphate Insecticide, of kinds which would not cause the Bird to have a lingering global odor...or any of the usual symptoms one would associate with Organophosphate Poisoning...

How would we have any way to know?


And if we were to decide that THAT is what this is - what could be done about it?


We could attribute any mysterious or odd syndrome seen here in the forum, to unknown Insectidie poisoning, since there is no way to know, how could anyone say it was not so?

It is just too far outside anything I can relate to from my own experience.


I am not interested in any contest of who is 'right' for you to even feel a need to phrase your position in that way.


I am interested in sounding the possible or the probable, by co-relating either, to what in our own actual experience, or, barring that, to our imaginary or conjectured postulates, to what we can observe with this Pigeon - so, anything which seems to fit, is fine with me.


I just am having trouble seeing how Organophosphate Poisoning would fit.


Salmonella fits pretty well.


Not trying to be difficult or press you, but, if you think Organophosphate Poisoning fits, can you share something from the Web or from some Toxicology Web Site or something, which would illustrate or describe the syndrome we are seeing?


I have no way to deal with how conjecturally, there might be dozens of Insecticides which, as Organophosphates, could be used to poison Birds, to where, somehow, that is the pronuuncement for this Bird, when none of the symptoms co-respond to any conditions I am aware of, which Organophosphate Poisoning would occasion/cause.


We see no tremor, no palsy, no wildly dialating and shrinking Pupils...no siezures or frantic panic-thrashing, no wildly heightened respiratory and Heart rate ( which usually is the element which kills them )...we see none of the things I would associate with Organophosphate Poisoning...which, granted, by now would have long since passed.

But in all the Pigeons I have had who DID have those symptoms and lived, none ever showed any sort of legacy or deficit, afterward.


So I can not relate to how what we are seeing with this Pigeon, could be a legacy or efter-effect of such a Poison.



So lets say what we are seeing c-o-u-l-d be some sort of insecticide poisoning, or Organophosphate Insecticide Poisoning, of a kind which does not have any of the usual characteristics I have seen, read about, talked with Vets about, and, talked with Poison Control about - 


What is it then you would wish to see done for this Bird?


What would you think can be done to aid this Bird in their continued recovery?



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


----------



## Dobato

Phil, running late for an appointment, will post something later.

In the mean time, just Google; Organophosphate Poisoning Intermediate Syndrome.

Karyn


----------



## beastinfection

Dobato said:


> This bird appears to be in almost full paralysis, so DO NOT feed the 15mL I suggested, and I think even 10 may be too much for him in this condition.


Just to make things clearer, I took these pictures when I took them because it was hard to get him to sit still. His legs, while stiff, still bicycle the air when I hold him, and his wings still flap and extend fully, and his neck and head move strangely but through a full range. He seems much more lethargic and sleepy than usual though, when he falls into me he starts to pass out.

If all those things still correspond to full paralysis, I will certainly not up his food allowance. Thanks for being so attentive.


----------



## pdpbison

Dobato said:


> Phil, running late for an appointment, will post something later.
> 
> In the mean time, just Google; Organophosphate Poisoning Intermediate Syndrome.
> 
> Karyn




Okay...will do...


May we please also consider Salmonella?


Love!


Phil
Lv


----------



## Pidgey

Well, if it's organophosphate poisoning, it will probably resolve itself in a few days as long as the supportive therapy is sufficient.

Yes, it can be pathogenic bacteria (Salmonellae, E. coli, Pasteurella, etc.) or something else--the question is not really so much an academic one, but rather a more practical one: what to do about it? Seeing as how it's Canada, we're generally a little more limited in getting the right antibiotics. And that said, we'd rather have Baytril (Enrofloxacin) or an equivalent for the heavy Gram negatives. Unless there's somebody in the neighborhood (so to speak) that can provide Cipro (Ciprofloxacin) or Baytril (Enrofloxacin) or even a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo (somewhat of a better drug than what he's being treated with so far), we're... kinda' academic here, really. And if it's viral (actually a possibility), then the supportive measures (housing, feeding) are the ONLY things doing any good.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

And on that note (virus), I am reminded a bird that I had/still have that our neighbor's daughter named "Second Chance" due to her awful bout with something rough like this. She pretty much spent some weeks on the floor of her cage in about this same condition. Didn't think she was going to make it for the longest time but the seizures slowly became more manageable over a few months. She finally graduated to the loft and has lived her own life ever since, even though she still has (a lot of) whopper fits. No, she can't make it "out in the wild" but there's no need. You can find her standing there looking completely normal a lot of the time only with mildly-ruffled feathers. She doesn't fly very much because she just can't fly too straight and sure anymore.

Pidgey


----------



## Dobato

Phil, instead of going too far into the poisoning thing,, it may be best just to have a short list with a few things on it and now figure out how best to help the caregiver look after this poor little guy and get him well again. There really is not a whole lot to be done right now, except get the supportive care right and see if, as Pidgey suggested, a change in antibiotics is possible, if not, the Triple-Sulfa will not be that bad a choice, as it will treat for salmonella.

Karyn


----------



## beastinfection

Two new pictures:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

He seems to be taking food and water and medicine well but becoming more and more narcoleptic, sleeping and burrowing into his towel all day. His head is lolling a lot more than usual and it spends a lot of time, upside-down, between his legs. And his legs seem stiff. Also he has small twitches in his wings and he seems to slightly shake with some regularity. 

He seems disoriented and one of his eyes is closed much of the time. He also likes to escape the pigeon donut and bury his head into uncomfortable corners of his box. He has a lot of energy at some points; in the mornings he flaps his wings enough to wake me up and moves about his box for a while. 

He is still pooping a lot, the poops are looking healthier I think. More like piles of stringy green coils and no longer fluorescent, bilious, and gelatinous. If you need pictures I will charge the camera battery.

He seems lively when stimulated but almost dead when left alone, and passes out in my arms frequently... How can I tell if his recovery is coming along? I'm worried about him....


----------



## Dobato

Well, this could still go either way, but that he is still alive is a bit encouraging to me. A bird as compromised as he is is going to take a some time to come back from the bad place he is at, so for now we will take this day by day. Also, that you do see a positive change in his droppings is a good sign as well. Do your best to keep him supported and his head up and continue doing what you are doing, as there is not much more to add to his treatment at present.

You are doing a swell job with him, he is lucky to have found his way to you,

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Hi b-i, Karyn, all...



I do not have a good feel for what ever this is which is effecting this Pigeon.


I like the underlieing basis of Karyn's concern that this could be an expression of some sort of Pesticide Poisoning, even if I have had trouble co-relating the onserved so far Symptoms with Organophosphates specifically.


I have seen somewhat similar conditions which I had attributed to PPMV, and, to Salmonella, where in the course of my managing their recovery, I saw no reason to change my mind on the conjecture of what it was I was countinancing.

So, while those were 'similar' to some degree, they were not similar-enough for me to feel satisfied in suggesting that this is either of those...but, it c-o-u-l-d be, either of those ( Salmonella, or, PPMV, but of the two, I am now leaning more to the PPMV).


So, as far as my own experience is concerned, I am at a loss for pronouncing any sort of useful idea of what this is...other than at this point to find that PPMV seems to be the best idea I can come up with, which would fit what we are seeing - some PPMV Pigeons I have had, showed much of this sort of behavior, the Head Burrying/Burrowing in a corner, lolling, droopy neck, sleepy eyes, etc. It is an illneess or afflictiuon which has many faces, and I have no reason to suppose that I have seen more than a handfull OF it's many possible faces, so...

That or some sort of Poisoning, but what kind, I have no good sense of.


Insecticides usually knock out the Autonomic system, where, the victim looses the ability to Breathe, and, or looses the regulation of their Heart, along with the more gross and distal Neorological/Muscle related loss of control or use...so while insecticide Poisoning does seem like a worthy possibility to brood on, what we are seeing wqould not be typical of what it would be expected to do.





Thank goodness his Digestive System and Respiratory System are doing well.


I will brood on this some.


If nothing else, efforts to provide hightened Nutritional intake, Anti-Oxidents, reasonable levels of the B Vitamin complex, Vitamin D, can never hurt, so, even if we can not figure out anything else to do or try, including some particular additional things in his Diet would be good to do.


When you have him in his comfortable 'Burrito Bird' mode, is this comfortable for you to possibly feed actual Seeds to him?


You might not have any appropriate Seeds at the moment, but, sometime down the road here with this, maybe you could get some regular Pigeon Mix, or one of us could send you some, and, begin 'Seed Pops' with him, which is opening his Beak, and, putting in one or two small dried Peas or Corn Kernals, which he then swallows.


Anyway, yes, do post some to-day's freshest poop/urate images for us to see.


Wow...you are such a good sport for being willing to care for this Pigeon...and for doing such a good job of it also...very good to see this.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## John_D

As I suggested way back , the symptoms described at the time suggest PMV



> Maybe I have under-exaggerated the abnormality of his movements. He acts very drunk. He somersaults and falls constantly, his head moves slowly 180 degrees and he sits back on his ass, he totters to one side constantly extending one wing or the other, he can see the seeds I initially put on the ground for him to eat but cannot get them into his mouth even with effort as his pecking is completely ineffective. I put the water down on the floor and he sees it and circles around to try to drink but cannot seem to make himself effectively do so.


Although B-I has not seen any 'seed tossing', we know that there's a whole range of symptoms, of which different permutations may occur.

B-I: these symptoms are described in our resource section. A bird with the condition usually shows at least a few of them:



> The most common symptoms seen by the rescuer will be:
> 
> Thin broken solid droppings in a pool of liquid
> Fine tremor of eyes or head
> Staggering
> Somersaulting in flight
> Crash landing
> Difficulty picking up seed, pecking and missing.
> Tossing seed backwards
> Twisting neck, head upside down (torticollis, star gazing) - see photo.
> Paralysis of legs or wings
> Spiralling in flight
> Flying backwards
> Turning in circles
> Having fits
> Suddenly dropping off to sleep, head slumped forwards (zonking out!)
> Pulling head backwards towards tail.


(From: Pigeon Paramyxovirus (aka : PMV, PPMV, PMV1 -Pigeon) )

Those I've scooped up from my balcony, I have to say, never showed the degree of starvation that this one did - probably because food was available to them and I happened to spot them before it got complicated by severe dehydration/starvation.

Of course, keeping the bird comfortable, fed and watered is still the major part of this one's care, and I absolutely agree - B-I has done a great job thus far.


----------



## *Emmie*

at this point, as neurological symptoms seem to become worse, when is an appropriate time to begin thinking about euthanasia? Honestly, I am curious because I would not know when it would be " too late" to improve the poor baby's situation . Please advise, opinions are welcome. I would like it to be known as well that I am not necessarily suggesting it for this bird, just merely asking in general.


----------



## John_D

*Emmie* said:


> at this point, as neurological symptoms seem to become worse, when is an appropriate time to begin thinking about euthanasia? Honestly, I am curious because I would not know when it would be " too late" to improve the poor baby's situation . Please advise, opinions are welcome. I would like it to be known as well that I am not necessarily suggesting it for this bird, just merely asking in general.


Euthanasia is the ultimate last resort for a bird which has no hope of any quality of life, and it is pointless trying to generalize on something so subjective.

A pigeon with neurological symptoms caused by pigeon PMV need NEVER be euthanized. We have between 30 - 40 birds who had the virus, and a few will probably never completely be free from neurological quirks due to permanent damage. However, they live in our aviary and interact with more able pigeons, find mates and build their nests and, essentially, do all the 'pigeon things' except fly, and always appear very active and contented.


----------



## *Emmie*

Where I come from , no question is pointless. 

I would have appreciated the answer and the opportunity to learn without the rudeness. Thank you.


----------



## beastinfection

*Emmie* said:


> Where I come from , no question is pointless.
> 
> I would have appreciated the answer and the opportunity to learn without the rudeness. Thank you.


While John_D didn't _quite_ answer your question in the way you might have been looking for, I didn't find his response particularly rude either. Any question of life or death is most likely going to be a case-by-case basis though... 

If euthanasia is, after all caregiving, an option in the end, I'd also be curious as to when to draw the line. Though as long as this pigeon I'm taking care of is willing to not give up the ghost, I'm willing to care for him!


----------



## John_D

*Emmie* said:


> Where I come from , no question is pointless.
> 
> I would have appreciated the answer and the opportunity to learn without the rudeness. Thank you.


Please read again! Your question is valid, but I said it is pointless trying to generalize on something so subjective - that is, there is no general answer. Every 'patient' is an individual, so a decision has to be taken ultimately by the care giver but, hopefully, weighing input from those familiar with whatever the affecting condition may be, and its likely outcome.

B-I: How is the patient doing now?


----------



## beastinfection

John_D said:


> B-I: How is the patient doing now?


The symptoms you posted from the resource section so closely describe his condition that I'd be hard-pressed to believe he _doesn't_ have PPMV. Still very sleepy, mostly inactive, though his eye seems to no longer stay constantly shut.

To put it another way, he seems to still have his strength and will to live but is acting as anyone with a virus does; plenty of bedrest and inactivity. Hopefully this works for pigeons as it does for humans and he will come out of it well-healed. 

I'm feeding him 10mL of formula every four hours with rehydration fluid in the interims and medicine twice daily. Keep your fingers crossed for him, for while he still seems very sick he is also still hanging on.


----------



## pdpbison

Something I have found helpful for the severely wangley PPMV Pigeon, or, other unknown causes where the Pigeon can not peck successfully on their own...

I have them situated on a Towel, on my Lap, as I sit...Bird facing to my right, my left Hand softly supporting and stabalizing their Body.

Seed Bowl, deepish Seed Bowl, in front of them, and, my Right Hand softly cupped slightly over their Head, or, if need be, literally steadying their Head, so they can Peck.


Many times, this has worked well, even if it takes a few tries for them to get with it and work out the method.

If that does not work, I 'Burrito' them lightly, and, we just do 'Seed Pops' and when in this sort of shape, they soon come to really enjoy and apreciate it, nibbling or gobbling at the Air in anticipation of the next Seed.


I have never been party to any euthenasis no matter how bad off a Bird appeared to be.


And, some of the ones I have had who were roughly in this sort of shape...far as I recall, all recovered and became self sufficient, whether or not recovering the ability to fly indoors.


PPMV Pigeons I have had typically will become very dear and affectionate, with all the time one ends up spending in managing their care and recovery. Those Pigeons who have been the biggest 'Cuddle Bunnies' here, have been the severely afflicted PPMV ones how had to be hand fed for months, and, looked after a great deal before finally revocering to where they could peck and manage for themselves.


I am used to all this, so it is just second nature now.

But, if you wanted, try the Lap Towel Hand support Seed Bowl thing, and, if that odes not work, return to it now and then, while, doing Burrito Biurd Seed Pops a few times a day of say a fluid Ounce volume of Seeds per session.

I am confident he will come to appreciate it very much, even if it may take a few rounds to find the groove.


If you have any B-Complex people vitamins - you can dissolve on in half a Gallon of Water, or, in a Quart of Water, keep it in the fridge, and, use a little of that Water to add to his drinking Water along with adding ACV to it.

Stress tends to use up the B Vitamins...Vitamin C also will likely be good for him.




Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Quazar

*Emmie* said:


> Where I come from , no question is pointless.
> 
> I would have appreciated the answer and the opportunity to learn without the rudeness. Thank you.


I think John was rather polite and correct with his comment.
You cannot say any general point in time is correct

I can understand your question, and agree that no question is pointless, however to give an answer with a finite point in time or procedure certainly would be.
As BI says every case is different.
If you scan through the board you will find numerous occasions where the caregiver has been at a point where they thought things may have been looking futile, and the patient has survived and recovered well.
There are other times where the patient has responded well then suddenly went downhill and passed.
Any of the members here will try to do everything possible to help a bird SURVIVE and the advice given is always in the birds best interest to avoid pain & suffering.


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## John_D

Sounds like he's in with a chance. Assuming it is PMV, then he would be clear of the virus by 6 weeks from initial infection, but not necessarily all of the symptoms. We actually have a recovered bird who still zonks out readily, but she has a mate and copes fine.


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## pdpbison

I do not remember ever having any severe PPMV Pigeons who did not improve a great deal with time and care and deferences.

Good nutrituion, Seed-Pops, Vitamins...ACV Water...Back and Shoulder Massages...being cuddled and held in ways where their posture is close to normal, when one can...all these things can help quite a bit.

The little collapsed Sidewalk fledgling I found a while back, who once done with his horrid Crop Stasis and Canker woes, soon was showing PPMV throes, was flipping over, could not walk, could hardly stand much of the time...went through that phase, and, soon got a lot better. Still has touble self feeding, so I hand feed him with 'Poppa Hand Beak' and he puts the Seeds awy like a champ. He just glows...and is a Wiggle Puppy whenever I am near. Very dear little Pigeon, solid as a Tree Turnk now, and, aside from a little Head tilt, and some peckint troubles, is every inch a happy and vivid little Pigeon, Healthy as a Horse, picture perfect poops.


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