# Medication amounts



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi everyone, 

I'm thinking of starting Henny on a product that I purchased from Siegels called ,10 in 1. Here is what they say about it on their website:

*Ten in One Capsules* -- The latest development in the treatment of a myriad of diseases that attack our pigeons. This product provides a safe and effective treatment against the following: Canker, Coccidiosis, E. coli, Salmonella, Chlamydia, Streptococcus bovis, Staphylococcus aureus, Mycoplasmosis, Ornithosis, and the symptoms of Adeno coli. *Directions for use: Use 1 capsule per bird down the throat the evening before basketing and the day of return. *

It doesn't say what the active ingredients are on the bottle nor the mgs. So, I have to ask this question again. How many capsules should I give Henny? I'm going by the thinking that these products are designed and formulated mostly to be given to homing pigeons. A homing pigeon is about half the weight of one of my runts. Therefore, wouldn't it be logical to give two capsules to my pigeon? Either way, it's not right because meds are supposed to be assigned in accordance to the direct weight of the bird. However, I don't want to underdose her in case it's not effective enough, but I'm afraid of a possibility of overdosing as well. Of course Siegels is not open today to take calls about their products.

I would like to start her on this tonight and see if there is any improvement, otherwise, I will have to take her to the vets soon. I purchased all these meds so I'd better try something! I have spartrix still and I bought turbosole, but I'm thinking that the 10 in 1 might have a better chance at catching something, even if it's just the canker that I suspect.

Any suggestions or thoughts on this?

Thank you as always,


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## Nooti

Hi Brad, I have to say that I am suspicious of any medication which does not state the active ingredient or the dosage by weight and is called by a 'silly' name. This usually implies that it is a cheap alternative and therefore not wholloy successful. 
The other thing I find suspicious is that it claims to tackle such a wide variety of illnesses - some of which are parasitic. Which is it? An antibiotic or Parasitic medication? Also the variety of illnesses mentioned are caused by different types of bacteria - aerobic, anaerobic, gram positive, gram negative etc which are sensitive to different types of medication. I have yet to find a medication which is successful in dealing with all types of bacterial infections giving the same result each time. In my opinion, and it is an opinion only, whoever produces such a medication will be the richest man in the world and I will have the smallest drugs cabinet! lol!
In the meantime I stick with tried and tested licenced drugs which I know will work, but then I have to remember that I have unlimited access to these medications and this is not the case with everyone here, and I sometimes forget that. It may well be that you need to try this product out of sheer necessity. If you do and you find any info about the product and it works for you and a few other people on different symptoms I shall be interested.


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## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

I'm not big on the 'all in ones', although I know many use them. I just prefer to treat a problem w/the specific med at a formulary dosage, and I think that way I'm not helping to create a 'resistant' anything. Course, maybe that's not either here nor there.

I know that you have the Ivermectin injectable on hand, and so they are being treated for worms. Do you check and treat for coccidiosis at regular intervals if the numbers are worthy of treatment?

Personally, seeing as you seem to be noticing some signs of canker, I'd treat for that specifically. The Turbisole is Ronidazole, is that correct? If you tend to treat more w/Carnidazole, I'd opt for the Ronidazole, if in fact that's what the Turbasole is. Gets you into the rotational mode. That would be 400mgs per gallon for 3-5 days. Can ya post on the Turbisole?

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Helen and FP for the insight on this. I too am not all that comfortable with the meds that treat for a bunch of things and in fact, I've never used one before. They weren't cheap however, @ $30 for 60 capsules and the same price I paid for the baytril I ordered. It's just hard to know if it's worth a shot or not. 

The turbosole is also from Siegels and yes it's main ingredient is the ronidazole at 200 mgs. There is instructions for this on the label on how to give in the water. I'm not particularly confortable with medicated water either, because of the fact you don't know if the bird is getting the required dose each time.

The spartrix I still have but am leary about because it's caused my birds to throw it up before, on several occasions. This wouldn't be good right now either since I want to get something into her that might help over night. As well, I think I'd have to give her two of the carnidazole because of her much heavier weight. 

What to do, what to do... 


Thank you both for your input though.


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## pdpbison

Hi Brad, all...


I am not familiar with the "10-in-1" product, but some of the "4-in-1" or others are merely Four (or however many) different Medications mixed together, and, usually are intended to be mixed in water to some certain amount, where the weight of the prospective patient is an automatic matter indexed to their Water intake, so the dosage takes care of itself.

These you mention, being Capsules of course are different in that regard, and likely do presume ( I think inconveniently, ) an average 'Homer' since that is the largest maket share of applications for such supplies being used.

I would consider to Call 'Siegals' and ask them for the technical literature and content's breakdown and listings for this product, and, also, ask them for the info on dosage by patient's weight for the amount of powder a Capsule contains.

They should know better than to sell something with such vague guidelines for proper use...!

I myself feel that the 4-in-1, 5-in-one or 10-in-one are worth thinking about for those occasions when we know something is 'wrong' but we do not know what, and or have no ready access to a qualified Vet for an examination or fecal analysis and so on.

In the long run, of course, with accrued experience, we should be able to find less and less use for such combos, but, in the mean time, they might just prove very helpful for those Pigeons we may have or get who are not quite 'right' and can benifit from this kind of 'shotgun' approach for want of a definitive diagnosis...

Probably, a medly of meds like these combos have, will burdon them in various ways far more than the specific meds one might use for a specific determined illness, so, for what it's worth, there is that trade-off to bear in mind with respect to their little Livers and Kidneys and so on putting up with so many meds at once in their system.


What is going on with Henny?

Would you make a seperate thread to describe her situation in case anyone might have some insight or ideas to narrow it down?


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Phil, what you said makes sense to me. I guess I'll follow the consensus of yourself, Helen and FP and hold off until morning. I'll call Siegels first thing at 9am. I'll ask them about the product, what it contains and how much to give a runt pigeon.

I just really wanted to get her on something tonight as the poor girl isn't doing great. I know she's not severly ill, as she's been eating, drinking, preening and is now up on her perch for the night. However, she's not getting any better either and I wanted to try one of the meds I bought. I spent $200 on this latest order and it may seem silly, but I hope I can use some of it and since something is wrong with Henny.

Otherwise, it's back to my vet, whom you all know I don't really trust and another $200 charge. Something is just not right with Henny and Eggbert. Something is causing them to get sick all of a sudden and I don't understand why. The youngsters are fine (Knock on wood). But for Eggbert to get the clostridium infection, then this with Henny....something amiss and I feel as if I could be wasting money and time at the vets and/or having things keep cropping up unexpectedly between the two of them.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Phil, 

This started last week when the birds seem to be constipated. I found poops stuck to both the feathers around their bums. I suspected it was the new grit I was giving them and pulled it. I cleaned their vents off and everything seemed fine. Eggbert is acting totally fine himself both at the time the poops were stuck to his bum and since then.

Henny has been acting funny, off and sleepy. She's breathing heavy and her whole body is moving and heaving with each breath she takes. She's still eating well, drinking, preening and flying. She's lost some weight too and then I noticed her today, opening and closing him mouth accompanied by the head shakes. I posted about this in Reti's Canker thread.

I decided just now that I couldn't wait and just popped two spartrix tabs down her. The reason I gave her two was because I feel it's necessary because of her weight. I had been giving the birds one in the past and I don't think it was enough for them. Maybe this is why it may have come back stronger. I'm hoping there will be some slight improvement come tomorrow and I'm also going start the turbosole in the water in the morning in case they've become immune to the spartrix. I don't/haven't given spartrix to them very often but even so, maybe it was too low of a dose all along.

Thanks everyone,


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## feralpigeon

Hi Brad, 

I'm not really happy with the water medications, I like to know for sure that they've had their meds which a pill enables me to do. Although, I believe that the water treatment applications are formulized so that a bird will get the needed amount even if drinking a bit less than usual. What I do as a compromise is to syringe 2cc's directly into the crop of the medicated water to ensure that they've had their meds. The one time dosing for the Carnidazole would be 30-50mgs per kilo of weight, once. Treating again in ten to fourteen days.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you FP, 

Yes, my spartrix are 50 mgs and it says to give one pill per bird. So in theory then, this is an overdose in itself since most pigeons weigh around the 400-500 gram range. There are 1000 mg in a kilo. However, it would seem that spartrix has a very safe margin for error and I knew this but like you and everyone else, I prefer to go by the actual and proper doses for my birds.

Here is a link to some studies on carnidazole and their findings giving various treatments and doses:

http://www.betterchem.com/vet/carnidazole.htm


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## TAWhatley

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Yes, my spartrix are 50 mgs and it says to give one pill per bird.


Just double checking .. have another look .. my Spartrix tablets are 10 mg of active ingredient (carnidazole) per tablet but there are 50 tablets in the box ..

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

It's quite humerous to see your and Terry's avitars side by side, being so entirely active  . My Spartrix is also 10mg's per pill, 50 per box and manufactured byJanssen. The box instructions say 1 tablet per day for 2 to 3 days, I quoted from an avian formulary before. There is as you say a wide margin of safety w/carnidazole, pigeons dosed at 32 times the dose rate showed no signs of toxicity according to one study. Although I certainly wouldn't advocate this, one of those--"Don't try this at home" type of things.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

TAWhatley said:


> Just double checking .. have another look .. my Spartrix tablets are 10 mg of active ingredient (carnidazole) per tablet but there are 50 tablets in the box ..
> 
> Terry



Hi Terry, 

Yep, you were right, they are 10mg 50 in a box. Must have been thinking of the amount as the mgs.


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## Pigeonpal2002

LOL, it's kinda cute, our flying bird avs...thanks FP

Yeah, I was wrong on the mgs, and the study that I posted the link about, said that they gave 64 times the amount and only then, were there cases of vomitting in the birds. Odd to me, since mine have thrown up with only 1 

So far so good though with Henny, she's kept them down.


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## feralpigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> .......the study that I posted the link about, said that they gave 64 times the amount and only then, were there cases of vomitting in the birds. Odd to me, since mine have thrown up with only 1
> .....


Well, ditto from past experience, it does seem harder for pigeons to tolerate than Ronidazole or Metronidazole. Glad to hear they are keeping it 'down'.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Well, I gave Henny two spartrix tabs Sunday night at around 8pm. She didn't throw up that I saw and before I went to work at 11pm. However, when I got home in the morning, there was evidence that she did indeed throw up on her perch sometime over night. She then threw up 2 more times (that I saw) later on this morning. 

She's still breathing very heavy and I examined her mouth again and there was a little button on the right side of inside her mouth, it wasn't there the day before!!! It wasn't very big, and it didn't really look like canker that I've seen in pictures, and I've never seen canker growths in my birds before to compare. It must have been a canker lesion though, don't know what else it could have been. Her air hole seems to be enlarged and "off centre". Hard to explain really but it almost seems as if it's been moved to the side a bit 

I decided to forget the spartrix because it obviously will not be kept down so I started the turbosole in the water. HOPEFULLY, this will help and I'll keep her on it for the full 5 days it suggests.

Forgot completely to call Siegels about the 10 in 1, hopefully I'll remember tomorrow. Would really like to know what's in it and how it's supposed to work.


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## TAWhatley

Brad .. if you get a second can you post a link to that 10 in 1 product on Siegel's? Would just like to have a look. I hope the Turbosole does the trick, but I really don't like drinking water based products when dealing with just one or a few birds .. I'd rather know for sure that I'm getting the required meds into the birds.

If you gently feel Henny's neck can you feel any abnormal growth(s) in there?

I sure hope she and the others are and will be fine and know that you are worried to death.

Terry


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## re lee

If the 10 in 1. is used for race birds befor and after a race. I think it may be for preventive doses. So if birds get exposed by other birds in the race. So it may be a mild dose. If your bird is haveing breathing problems. then it could be respitory related. how old is it. And what i have been told about oxine it could help there. Your birds are runts right. might keep it grounded for a while too as wieght times flight and not being in shape effects breathing to. Is it haveing slight discharge at the wattle. does it have a little waterery eyes


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Terry, Robert...

Hi Robert, 

Yes, they are runts and she's keeping pretty much grounded herself, only flying up to roost at night. Nope, there is no discharge, watering of eyes, nose etc.

Terry, here is the link the the Siegels page. The turbosole is at the very top of the page and the 10 in 1 is near the bottom.

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-canker.html

Yeah, I'm pretty worried about the old girl, and I will try to feel her neck tomorrow. Not sure I'll know what I'm feeling for, but I'll give it a go.

Thanks,


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## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

Although I'm sorry to hear that Henny threw up after the Spartrix, I guess I'm not surprised as that's my complaint about it as well. You mentioned difficulty breathing, there are several sites that will mention respiratory distress as a symptom of canker, although it may not be what first comes to mind w/that symptom.

You've probably seen this, but will post just in case:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/VM/VM03200.pdf

Since the Turbosole is being given in the water, maybe you might consider syringing some into the crop to be sure they are getting enough.

Hope things start to improve for Henny and the rest, as well as you....I know this is very upsetting.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi folks, 

FP, thank you for the advice, great link and confirmation that canker does and can cause breathing difficulties. Yes, you don't hear that it's a symptom of canker very often.

I'm really afraid to give liquids now, after what happened with Eggbert and now with Henny, since she's already having a hard time breathing. If I goofed up and got any in her airpipe, it could be disaterous Thankfully, she's drinking well and often, she always has been a very good drinker so I think she's getting enough of the meds.

Today, she seems to be a little bit better, although if she is, the change is minimal. She was a little more active this morning...eating, preening and just actually moving rather than sleeping all the time. She's not acting typically sick, she does things, flies and still coos with Eggbert and does her rituals with him. Her appetite is just as good as always too but she does sleep most of the day.

I'm wondering though, if this might be lung worm. Lung worm would show very similar symptoms, especially the sleepiness (so I've read). I've treated with Ivermectin all along but I don't believe that it tackles lung/gape worm. I also read that earwigs carry the tapeworm eggs and I know I've seen earwigs in the house before. I'm not over-run with ear-wigs by any means, but I do find them occasionally in the house. I have no idea whether or not she would have eaten any...but you never know. I'm sure a lot of other insects carry these eggs as well that might be found in the home. 

Still, I did find one, small, whiteish "button" in her mouth yesterday and it's still there. She's also still not pooping the best, meaning that they are small and some quite dry and "clay-like". I found some more stuck around the opening of her vent again this morning but not clogging it.

This is day #2 of the turbosole and I'm going to continue it for the 5 days it recommends for full treatment. *If she is loaded with canker internally, would this be enough time or should I continue treatment longer? As well, if she does have canker lesions on her liver, inside her crop, or wherever else inside, will the medication cure her?*

I just hope I see more improvement soon, so that I know I'm on the right track with the canker meds. I was thinking of using my new wormer after this as well for both birds. 

Thanks folks,


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## re lee

Try giving her some cod liver oil capsules. 2 a day for say 4 days. And give her brewers yeast tabs 2 a day . Trim the vent feathers short to help sticking of stools. How old is she. Now last year I had a old hen. That was just getting old She would have about the same problems. even noticed her beak would turn darker horn beaked. I figured she was not getting circulation as she should because of age. Now this may not ralate to your problem though. You should with the cod liver oil help loosen the droppings some. If you can not find the capsules you can give her 1 dropper per day of the liquid.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Robert, 

Thank you....I'll try the cod liver oil gel caps and brewers yeast then and see if this helps. The poops are sticking to new coming in pin feathers around her vent so I don't want to clip those. They are even sticking to the surrounded skin as well so I just pick them off. I really don't know how old Henny is, she is not banded. I got her in 2001/2002 and the breeder said that she was about a year old at that time, so she'd be around 5 now.


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## TAWhatley

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Terry, here is the link the the Siegels page. The turbosole is at the very top of the page and the 10 in 1 is near the bottom.
> 
> http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-canker.html
> 
> Yeah, I'm pretty worried about the old girl, and I will try to feel her neck tomorrow. Not sure I'll know what I'm feeling for, but I'll give it a go.
> 
> Thanks,


Thanks for the link, Brad .. was hoping it would list what is actually in this product and how much per dose. This is one of my peeves with some of these treatments .. you don't know what you are actually giving the bird or how much of whatever it is.

As to feeling the neck, you are feeling to make sure there is not a solid feeling mass anywhere that could be a big canker growth. Obviously the neck bones are going to be solid, but you'll know if you are feeling a big chunk of canker in there right away. I don't really think canker is the problem, but it can be pretty insidious .. I will never forget little Poquito that I lost to a huge canker growth in the neck that I missed.

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Terry, 

Yes, I forgot to mention I called Siegels this morning to ask about the 10 in 1. The woman said that she didn't have any further information on the product. She said it comes from Europe. 

I also forgot to mention that I did try to feel for any lumps in Henny's neck this morning but I couldn't feel anything. Well, actually, I don't think I was feeling hard enough. She is so timid and squirmy, and I tend to be too "gentle". I will try again tomorrow morning though.

Why do you say that you don't think canker is the problem?


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## feralpigeon

Hi Brad and rest,

I was catching up on the thread and saw your suggestion Robert, about the Brewers Yeast. I remember reading in the past about not giving this simultaneously w/antibiotics. I don't know if like grit, it only applies to certain antibiotics or all, and as well, the Ronidazole is not the same as Metronidazole but it is still in the same family, so I wondered about this combo. Can someone 
'splain' please?

Thanks,

fp


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## TerriB

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ...The poops are sticking to new coming in pin feathers around her vent so I don't want to clip those. They are even sticking to the surrounded skin as well so I just pick them off...


If the area becomes irritated, you could use a little glycerine lotion (preferably unscented, hypo-allergenic) to soothe and keep the skin moist. It doesn't tend to spread to the rest of their feathers like petroleum based lotions (mineral oil or petroleum jelly).

Sure hope she feels better soon!


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Terri, 

Thank you for that information, I will try that. I suppose I would get the glycerine lotion at the drug store? I will look.

I'm starting to wonder, my mind is always churning away at possibilities. Perhaps, this is a clostridium infection in Henny as well. I mean, Eggbert had it and maybe he passed it to her or she passed it to him but she took longer to bring down. As well, perhaps the canker is a secondary infection now to what the main problem is, perhaps a bacterial infection.

Oh boy, I hate not knowing but I have some meds now. I bought baytril from Siegels as well but I'm wondering whether it's the real stuff. It's in capsule form and it's called "baytril special"...must be another product from Europe because it doesn't give the mgs and it's different from the baytril I've had in the past. Here is a link to the product, it's down the list a bit:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

I am wondering if it's worth a try to either start her on the 10 in 1 or the baytril special in combination with the turbosole. Any thoughts on this...can they be given concurrently? I did find out that I can get metronidazole from aquarium supply stores, but I didn't ask about the mgs. I called on Monday and found out it's only sold in 5mg pills. That's nowhere near enough, is it? The liquid metro I was given by the vet was 100mg.

FP, I do believe you're right about not giving brewers yeast with antiboitics in cause it's an overload of the yeast organisms. I'm not sure that the turbosole is considered an antibiotic though....doesn't seem like it. The metronidazole is different because it treats a few things, not just canker.

I'm really not sure what to do next, should I try the baytril special, would that work on clostridium bacterium? What about the metro from the aquarium place, could I make that work somehow? 

I'll see how she is again in the morning, but if she's no more improved, I would like to start her on something else...either that, or she's got to go to the vets.

Thanks folks,


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## TAWhatley

Hi Brad,

That link to the Baytril does say it is 50 mg, and I'm pretty sure that is what it is .. so no problem or question there. 

As to the 10 and 1 .. who knows ..

I don't think canker is your problem as the symptoms seem a bit wrong to me for canker, but I'm not really the brightest bulb on the planet right now .. will
get my stuff together and post again tomorrow.

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> I am wondering if it's worth a try to either start her on the 10 in 1 or the baytril special in combination with the turbosole. Any thoughts on this...can they be given concurrently? I did find out that I can get metronidazole from aquarium supply stores, but I didn't ask about the mgs. I called on Monday and found out it's only sold in 5mg pills. That's nowhere near enough, is it? The liquid metro I was given by the vet was 100mg.
> 
> *Brad, here in the states its sold at the Aquarium Stores in 250mg tablets. Are you sure the person read correctly off the package? Also, without knowing exactly what's in the Ten in One, it would be hard to say if there would be a conflict or not. The Baytril can be given w/Metronidazole, if not mistaken, and the Ronidazole and Metronidazole are from the same family of drugs.*
> 
> FP, I do believe you're right about not giving brewers yeast with antiboitics in cause it's an overload of the yeast organisms. I'm not sure that the turbosole is considered an antibiotic though....doesn't seem like it. The metronidazole is different because it treats a few things, not just canker.
> 
> *Well, that's why I was asking Brad, as the Flagyl & Ronidazole are from the same family and I was thinking that while perhaps not considered as effective as Flagyl, it may well have many of the same properties from an antibiotic perspective. I wouldn't risk anything right now unless I knew definitively, all due respect to Robert's suggestion. Albeit, once through w/the meds, I'd be happy to offer the B-Y.*
> 
> I'm really not sure what to do next, should I try the baytril special, would that work on clostridium bacterium?
> 
> *I'm not sure about Baytril for Clostridium. Recommended drugs I read of would be the Metronidazole--you've got Ronidazole--and Bactrim/Trimethoprim Sulpha. Think Clostridium is a gram negative, anaerobic bacteria, so how effective it would be??*
> 
> What about the metro from the aquarium place, could I make that work somehow?
> 
> *If they really are only 5 mgs., w/your big birds you might need to get quite a bit.*
> 
> I'll see how she is again in the morning, but if she's no more improved, I would like to start her on something else...either that, or she's got to go to the vets.
> 
> Thanks folks,


Brad, here's a link to a thread that has some of the drugs being discussed here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=39591&postcount=1


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## feralpigeon

Brad,

Just picking up on an earlier post about some of your concerns, about the 
gape worm issue:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...worm+ivermectin&d=GryshG1aMViz&icp=1&.intl=us

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...worm+ivermectin&d=Tape321aMSmI&icp=1&.intl=us

If you scroll down, you'll find highlighted text that says that Ivermectin will treat gapeworm, think you've been treating w/this...

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi FP, 

Thanks for all the information and advice and those last two links as well. Some interesting stuff there. Yes, I have treated with Ivermectin all along but I haven't treated Henny in about 1/2 year so perhaps it's time again. Not sure if gapeworm would be an issue or not, it's not all that common in pigeons but you never know.

I also read on the starling talk site about grit and how you shouldn't feed it to sick birds in case it gets impacted in the GI tract. Mind you, they were talking about starling but I wonder if this is what might have happened as well. Thank goodness I pulled all the grit.

I have a feeling I'm going to have to take Henny to the vets. There are too many "what ifs" going on here and I'm not sure what I should do. I'm going to call in the morning and see what I can bring her in.


Thanks again, FP


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## feralpigeon

Hey Brad,

So, might be good on GP to remove the grit even if no antibiotic. Good observation Brad, something for us all to think about. I posted the link on the gape worm as I thought you'd mentioned it earlier. One last thing
meant to say earlier as well, in terms of ruling things out or issues to consider regarding the growth that you see in Henny's mouth. Thrush/Candida, Vitamin A deficiency, and salivary stones might go into the things you'd want to think about/rule out as a possibility for what you're noticing there. I know there is a variation in coloring, but also within each category, there is as well. They simply seem to get lumped together in terms of ruling out for symptoms in several sources I've seen.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Again FP, 

I don't think that it would be thrush that I'm seeing, I am a regular user of ACV in the water and I use more than most do. Now, it could be a vitamin A deficiency, I was reading about this as well and wondering. A salivatory stone is also possible, will have to look at it again. I don't have an autoscope(?) so it's hard to see properly. 

It's very hard to diagnose birds, unless it's obvious like canker (usually) pox, or something that is glaringly obvious. Otherwise, the symptoms will all bleed together and it's impossible to know for sure. I hate the shot gun approach now, been there done it and it can take A LONG time to see any results, meanwhile, all the medicating of the bird isn't very good for it.

I'm really hoping to see more of an improvement in the morning, will do another exam of her mouth and neck region. But if there is no improvement, I feel I have no option but to take her back to the vet. I'm unsure of the meds I have and don't want to start her on something that may be useless. When I think of how she is, I get a knot in my stomach and it's very worrying to me.

thank you,


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Well Henny might be a little better today, it's so hard to tell for sure. I did check her mouth again and the little bump that was there, is gone. I also noticed that her air hole didn't seem as "off centre" or swollen. This does make me think that they might have been canker growths deep inside. Would it make sense that if there were a blockage in her air pipe, that it could have pulled it or caused it to go off centre? Tried feeling her neck again, but I couldn't feel anything and it caused her distress when I squeezed too hard, like she was choking.

She ate well this morning, drink a few good gulps of the turbosole laced water and then did some nesting rituals with Eggbert. Gave her a halibut oil gel cap as well.

I think I'm going to hold off on the vet for now as she is definitely not getting worse, and maybe better slowly. If she had a bad case of internal canker, wouldn't it take awhile for the drug to clear it up? Which brings me to my nest question...the turbosole instructions say it can be given from 1-5 days, can I give it longer and if so, how long? 

I want to finish her canker treatment completely and see if she does improve before I make any decisions about taking her to my shyster of a vet. Now if I could just get my hands on some proper metronidazole, I'd try that too. Called the store again FP, and they confirmed that it's only 5 mg pills.


----------



## Nooti

Brad I wish I could help you here - but like you say, a lot of it is what ifs?
Maybe there was an abscess, it happens. Could be trich, maybe. In a lot of cases you treat birds, they recover and you never really know what was wrong. You just know what cured it and store that memory away until next time. Shame I can't do a physical exam. I can send good wishes though and hope things really are improving for her.


----------



## feralpigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'm going to hold off on the vet for now as she is definitely not getting worse, and maybe better slowly. If she had a bad case of internal canker, wouldn't it take awhile for the drug to clear it up? Which brings me to my nest question...the turbosole instructions say it can be given from 1-5 days, can I give it longer and if so, how long?


*Hi Brad,

What you could do, is hold off after the 5 days for 2 days, then repeat the treatment. This info is from a formulary, not conjecture on my part. Glad to hear the button is no longer there, and there is some improvement although not as much as you'd like. Maybe Flagyl would be a good thing for you to have on hand as well, in the pill form. Again, there is
a product that comes in 100 mg pills that is coated and put out by Medpet, 100 tabs in a bottle. Jedd's carries it.

fp*


----------



## TerriB

So glad that Henny seems to be doing a bit better! Walter had a hard time getting clear of canker - affected several internal areas - even though I rotated through several meds for trich. What finally worked on him was RonSec. Unless I find specific dosages, I generally double it for him and halve it for the littler birds, using a 500 gm homer as standard.



Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ... suppose I would get the glycerine lotion at the drug store?...


You might check to see what you have at home since you only need a tiny dab for a bird. I use Neutrogena but any grocery or drug store will usually carry several brands. Check the first few ingredients and you will find two types of lotion:
- petroleum based (greasy, sit on the skin and work by physically preventing evaporation, with mineral oil or petroleum jelly as a major ingredient)
- glycerin based (absorb into the skin, work by attracting moisture)


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi All, 

Thank you Helen, I know and this is how I feel too, too many "what ifs". It's all guessing on my part and the symptoms point to a few things, all of which require different meds. Sure do wish you could examine Henny, you'd probably know right away what was wrong with her and would be able to recommend a medication.

Thanks FP for the information on how to proceed with the canker meds. I will try that then and hold off for 2 days inbetween if I need to repeat the treatment. Maybe there will be a big improvement by Friday. Yes, I do want to have some Flagyl on hand, since it really helped Eggbert with the Clostridium and because it's so broad based. I think I will order it from the USA, just that it takes so darn long for these packages to arrive. It usually takes 2-3 weeks for my orders to come from the US. I think it's because they inspect it at customs and it gets delayed.

Thanks Terri for reminding me about Walter and how it took him a long time to get cleared up from canker. Our bigger pigeons really do seem to be different in some ways from normal, average sized birds. Thanks as well for the special information on the glycerin...I will be making a run to the drug store tomorrow for a few things. Robert (relee) had brought up something awhile ago that I forgot about. I want to get some oyster shell tablets too. I really think Henny was eating way too much grit, all 3 kinds of it.


----------



## feralpigeon

Brad, the Ron-Sec is specifically for resistant canker and is also carried @ Jedd's. Can't believe that the Aquarium stores in your area carry Fishzole in 5mg tabs. Major drag, you'd probably need a shopping basket full of it.

Here's the thread that I remember regarding Terri's situation:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9394&highlight=double+whammie

And the specific entry I want to direct you to:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=63450&postcount=8

For some reason or other, I get alot of canker birds in this area, so I keep dimetradazole, metronidazole, ronidazole, carnidazole and ron-sec on hand. I used to also keep the secnidazole on hand individually as well, but have swapped out for the Ron-sec.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks again FP

The reason I chose the turbosole (ronidazole) was because on Siegels website it said it was currently the canker medicine of choice by vets worldwide. Not sure if this is true or not but I believed it 

Yes, I do remember that thread now with Terri's bird and her problems resolving the canker in him. Henny was doing a lot of head shaking, opening her beak wide and also scratching at her throat...which is what led me to think this was canker I was dealing with. Since I couldn't see any lesions in her mouth, I figured it had to be deeper inside, perhaps her trachea or down her throat.

Yep, it is a major drag about the flagyl...and the 5mg tablets wouldn't work for my purposes. Probably it's done on purpose here in Canada because "they" don't want it being used for other animals. There are very strict rules on medications here


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

Who knows the legalities/logistics of why it is advertised as the drug of choice in Europe, there could be more that one reason why it is advertised this way.
It is considered to be more gentle w/babies, so perhaps this is one of the factors figured in. 

Here's a rather technical link on the 'family' in general:

http://parasitology.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/login/n/h/j_436_002-0754-9.html.html

So much studying is needed where meds are concerned.

fp


----------



## Happy

*Ron-sec?*

For some reason or other, I get alot of canker birds in this area, so I keep dimetradazole, metronidazole, ronidazole, carnidazole and ron-sec on hand. I used to also keep the secnidazole on hand individually as well, but have swapped out for the Ron-sec.
...feralpigeon.................................................................................................................................





Feralpigeon, Is Ron-sec just Ronidazole?? If so there is no reason to pay so much bigger prices for it. 
Thanks, Hap


----------



## feralpigeon

Happy said:


> For some reason or other, I get alot of canker birds in this area, so I keep dimetradazole, metronidazole, ronidazole, carnidazole and ron-sec on hand. I used to also keep the secnidazole on hand individually as well, but have swapped out for the Ron-sec.
> ...feralpigeon.................................................................................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feralpigeon, Is Ron-sec just Ronidazole?? If so there is no reason to pay so much bigger prices for it.
> Thanks, Hap


Hi Hap

Ronsec is manufactured by Medpet and is a combination of 25mgs of Ronidazole and 25 mgs of Secnidazole in sustained release formulation. 
Think you just missed a promotional special @ Jedd's, they were selling Ronsec and Coximed (Diclazuril 5mg) one each, for the price of one.  

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Well, this is day 5 now of Henny being on the turbosole (ronidazole). I'd have to say that if there was any improvement, it was minimal and has plateaued. I might try another 5 days next week but I'm going to stop the medicated water over the weekend. I've decided that I'm going to try the 10 in 1 for Sat & Sun...just to see. Helen had suggested I might become desparate enough, well I am now. If after the 2 days on the 10 in 1 there is no further improvement, I think I have no choice but to make a vet's appointment next week.

Henny is stable, but she's still sick and it's obvious. She continues to breath heavy and especially after flight but she DOES fly willingly. An obvious conclusion might be some sort of respiratory illness, but she doesn't have watery eyes, and/or any discharges from her nostrils. I don't know why she would have a respiratory illness either, as the room is well ventilated, has an air purification system and there are only the 4 birds.

Thanks FP for the most technical link to the medications....it's way too involved for me though, lol. That's pretty heavy reading and much too much for this brain

Terry, the baytril I was referring to is called "Baytril Special". You had scrolled down too far in the page. The baytril at the bottom of the page, are the regular ones but not what I bought. 

Here is a picture and description of the two drugs I purchased from Siegels.


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

I am sure you are familiar with the old medical saying when you hear hoof beats, think horses and not Zebras. My thoughts are before going to parasitic infections, IE lung worm, I would be thinking more in line of some kind of infection bringing on the respiratory distress in Henny, most likely bacterial in nature, as these are the most common occurring type.

I don't think it would hurt treating her over the weekend with the Baytril Special. The nice thing about Baytril is that it is quite a broad spectrum antibiotic and will take care of most bacterial infections effectively. If Henny's weight is anything like Eggbert's, she will need around 25 mg every twelve hours. I find with my birds for bacterial infections they respond quickly, sometimes even over night I can see positive changes, if you find she is responding treat for at least 7-10 days.

You will know by the end of the weekend if the Baytril is clearing up what is wrong with her.

Ron


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Ron, thanks for your response!

I didn't think baytril would work on respiratory infections? I googled this to be sure and I thought I read that this isn't the antibiotic used to treat these kind of ailments. Can you or someone else confirm this?

Thank you very much,


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

jazaroo said:


> I find with my birds for bacterial infections they respond quickly, sometimes even over night I can see positive changes, if you find she is responding treat for at least 7-10 days.
> 
> You will know by the end of the weekend if the Baytril is clearing up what is wrong with her.
> 
> Ron


Hi again Ron, 

You're right, Eggbert responded VERY quickly to the metronidazole for his clostridium infection. I was also wondering if this was a possibility with Henny and that perhaps, she got it from him and/or just took longer to bring her down. 

I'm still mostly unsure though, if the baytril would be a good choice for this, if it's the clostridium at work again or whether it's a respiratory infection from bacteria. 

As well, the baytril "special", doesn't give any (mgs) on the bottle. It only says to give one capsule a day/bird. So, I'd assume, that I'd have to give two capsules (roughly) for my much heavier pigeons. They are about double the weight of your average sized pigeon. There is no other way for me to be exact with this med or the 10 in 1 because of this.

Thanks Ron, you're quite versed about all of this


----------



## Pidgey

http://www.poultry.baytril.com/64/Susceptibility_Monitoring.htm

From the bottom of the page:

"The continuing monitoring shows that after more than 10 years of use in veterinary medicine Baytril still shows very good efficacy against relevant bacteria that cause enteritis, mastitis and respiratory tract infections."

...which included clinical information on Pasteurella spp., Salmonella spp., E. coli and Mycoplasma spp.

Other webpages have mentioned Pseudomonas Aeruginosa:

http://textbookofbacteriology.net/pseudomonas.html

and Baytril's effectiveness against that one although it's not a clinical write-up:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/enrofloxacin.html

Although other more complete lists don't seem to mention Pseudomonas:

http://www.vetcareindia.com/quinolones_bul.htm

Oh, well--it does work against an awful lot of bacteria that can cause respiratory problems. How do you know what it is that Henny has for sure? You quite simply might not. And, worse, your vet might not either--it may be quite difficult to find a representative culture. The doctor may choose to do a radiograph (X-Ray) or some other test in the hopes of getting a clue and may STILL resort to a broad spectrum like Baytril to get it. It's really nice when the illness presents in a straightforward way but all too often, that's not the case.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

If you strongly suspect that Henny picked up Eggbert's Clostridium infection, the Baytril would not be the drug of choice to treat it, Metronidazole would be. The Baytril would be good for the majority of other infections though, and yes, since the average pigeon weighs about 375 gms, give or take, I would double the recommended dosage of the Baytril Special, since their dosage I am sure is based on the average pigeon's weight, to compensate for her 900 gms or so I am guessing Henny weighs, if you felt it could something else than the Clostridium.

If you were going to use the Metronidazole she would need about the same dosage as I recommended for the Baytril, about 25 mg twice a day, for at least 7 and as many as 10 days. Do you have any Metronidazole?

Ron

PS: Baytril (Cipro) and Metronidazole can be used in conjunction with each other to cover all bases, if you did decide to do this since they work synergisticaly together, I would reduce each by 5 mg.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Ron, 


Thanks again...no, that's the problem, I can't get any metronidazole anytime soon. They sell it at the aquarium stores but not in large enough doses. It would take a ton of the 5mg pills to give Henny the required dose. 

Thanks Pidgey as well for those links and references. So, I'm left here between a rock and a hard spot, lol. I'm getting advice to try the baytril and I'm also getting the "no go". What about my 10 in 1? 

This weekend is a bust for the vets, they aren't open. I would like to try something but I'm unsure and don't want to/shouldn't switch back and forth between the meds once started. 

Thank you both/all. I'm just not as medicinally inclined


----------



## Pidgey

I found the Siegel's page but can't see what's in the 10-in-1. It's not ten different medications--it's probably that they're purporting that it treats ten different pathogens or diseases which could easily be a combination of three drugs or so. The active ingredient for most of the bacterial components may very well be Enrofloxacin (Baytril). Is there any more specific information about the active ingredients on the label?

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Pidgey, 

No, there is nothing more on the bottle itself. I even called Siegels directly but they couldn't offer any further information about the 10 in 1 other than to say it's from Europe. 

The "head honcho" at Siegels won't be in until this Tues to answer specific questions about any of the products.


----------



## Pidgey

Then it's a flip of a coin, Brad, plain and simple. The canker and coccidiosis components are the only ones that you wouldn't normally treat with Baytril. It's possible that the third med in the stack is a Trimethoprim/Sulfa but there's no way to be certain. I'd probably go with the Baytril as you've already been using the anti-canker.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Incidentally, there's no reason why you can't use the 5 mg. Flagyl tablets. The normal dosage for Metronidazole for birds is 10 to 30 milligrams/kilogram, twice daily (I think--running off memory). Your birds are about a kilogram (right?) so that's four tablets, twice a day. I'd read once that Metronidazole was shown not to be toxic at 32 times the recommended dose although I'm not going to trust my memory THAT far. Are you absolutely sure that the tablets that you can get are 5 milligrams/tablet and there's NOTHING WHATSOEVER ELSE in them by way of active ingredients?

And, are they cost prohibitive?

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Pidgey...


I guess it's worth a try then...but for some stubborn reason, I still want to try the 10 in 1. I'll try the baytril instead then over the weekend as per yours and Ron's instructions.


Thank you,


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

I do have Metronidazole in 250 mg pills, as I offered before, I happy to get some to you, as early as tonight if you wish. PM me if you want to do this.

Brad, since you seem quite concerned, if it was me I would probably treat with both the metronidazole and the Baytril given a number of hours a part to give complete coverage. If Eggbert did not have the prior Clostridium infection, I would probably just stick with the Baytril, but the prior infection does raise a little concern for me.

Ron


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Ron....


THANK YOU!!!! I forgot that you had the metro and about your offer. Tonight is not good for me as I'm a night worker and will be going to bed SOON. But, I can travel and go to your place tomorrow during the day if you are around. I will gladly pay you for the medicine as well.

I can treat with both baytril and metro at the same time then?


----------



## Pidgey

Sure, they're a great combo.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

Don't worry about paying a thing, I just want to see your girl better soon, PM me and we'll make arrangements for tomorrow. Yes, ditto what Pidgey says, they work well together.

Ron


----------



## feralpigeon

Pidgey said:


> ..... The normal dosage for Metronidazole for birds is 10 to 30 milligrams/kilogram, twice daily (I think--running off memory). Your birds are about a kilogram (right?) so that's four tablets, twice a day. I'd read once that Metronidazole was shown not to be toxic at 32 times the recommended dose although I'm not going to trust my memory THAT far. ...
> 
> Pidgey


Could be that it depends on what it is being used for, and perhaps more than one way of dosing, but seems like a range of 20-50 per kilo twice daily, higher if once daily. What dose rate did the vet prescribe before for the problem?

Was reading about clostridium and they were saying that health care workers in environments where it is not uncommon to treat for it, will carry it home on their clothing unwittingly. 

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

feralpigeon said:


> Could be that it depends on what it is being used for, and perhaps more than one way of dosing, but seems like a *range of 20-50 per kilo twice daily*, higher if once daily. What dose rate did the vet prescribe before for the problem?



Hi Everyone, 

Just wanted to give a bit of an update on Henny. She still hasn't improved any and tomorrow will be the start of her 3rd day on baytril. I was discussing the removal of calcium grit while using baytril with Phil & Fp in another thread. I'll pull it tomorrow in case it's interfering with the medication.

I did manage to get metronidazole at the aquarium store near my house. There was a misunderstanding between myself and the store clerk even though I did call twice. I was asking them what the percentage of metro in milligrams, they kept telling me it was 5 grams and that's all the package said. Then, in my head, was "hearing" it was 5 MILLIGRAMS. I also figured it was tablets but it wasn't, it was POWDER! LOL It's pure metronidazole powder in a 5gram container.

Anyway, to address your post up above FP, when it was perscribed for Eggbert recently, it was a liquid suspension containing 100mg of metro. to be given once per day for 5 days. This is what the vet instructed. This is where I'm getting confused on dosages myself and perhaps it is needed in higher doses for certain situations like you mention. I also found this link about racing pigeons written by a DVM suggesting 25-50mg per pigeon. Of course my birds are more than twice the weight of a homer so 100mg would again be about right for my birds.

http://ifpigeon.com/dmvhiggins.html

I just want to make sure that they are getting enough of the metronidazole so that it will work effectively. And as I understand it, it has a wide safety margin as well. So, I'm going to start her on this tomorrow and I'm going to put the powdered metro in a pill capsule to give down the throat. I'm just not experienced enough or patient enough to mix up the drug in a solution to syringe. I'm also very concerned about aspirating Henny with it because of her breathing issues. 


Helen, I just realized something. The last time we spoke about my birds they were sick, that was over 2 years ago. Here you come back to the forum and are once again reading that my birds are sick. They were healthy for over 2 years, really!!! It's just weird timing that you would be gone for the same amount of time my pigeons enjoyed good health. 

The clostridium infection and this with Henny are recent and the first problems they've had in such a long time

Wish me luck with Henny folks!


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

I know it's not usually a good idea, but can I stop giving Henny baytril after only 3 days? It doesn't appear to be helping her and I'm reluctant to keep poppiing 4 capsules down her each day. She's good about it but I still know it's stressing her a lot. 

I guess I'm wondering if there will be any negative consequences to stopping the meds after so little time.


----------



## mr squeaks

While I can't advise on the meds, I just want to wish you and Henny all the best! I know how stressful things can be when you feel helpless and don't know what else to do - especially if Henny doesn't seem to be improving.

REALLY WARM HEALING THOUGHTS and BIG HUGS TO YOU BOTH!


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Shi, 

It's definitely worrying and it's going on nearly 2 weeks she's been ill. The baytril & metro don't seem to be doing a thing. I've got her a vet's appt for Friday so I'm hoping for another swift diagnosis from the vets then.


----------



## Pidgey

I wouldn't stop the Baytril after only three days. If you start an antibiotic, it's best to finish the course, regardless, because there might be other bugs that you'd rather just go ahead and kill as to just wound 'em and help create superbugs.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Pidgey, all...

Yeah, I didn't want to stop the baytril but after 3 days and no improvement, I decided to stop. There was no change whatsoever in Henny and that was with the metronidazole too. She got 3 days of that as well and there was just no improvement. She's been on a lot of drugs this last 2 weeks and I felt she needed a break. I gave her 1 day of spartrix, 5 days of ronidazole, then the baytril and metro.

Took Henny to the vet this morning and unfortunately, there was no diagnosis or resolution. She did a crop smear and a fecal but they were busy and said she will call me back later this afternoon with the results.

I told the vet what I had been medicating with, for how long, and gave her the run down of all the symptoms. The vet agreed that I was doing everything right and that with the baytril & metro, I should have seen some improvement if it was a bacterial infection. She said that I covered all the bases as well for canker if this was the problem. 

She gave Henny the same physical as Eggbert and said that she couldn't really tell what was wrong, other than she agreed that there was respiratory problems. She said it could be caused by yeast but couldn't confirm this. The crop smear will show that though and she's also going to be looking for parasites in the poop.

I knew it wasn't going to be a good visit and that this wasn't going to be an easy situation. The next step will be blood tests and x-rays to see what shows from those. She said that if there is a blockage in the tracheal opening, either from grit or a seed, it will show in an x-ray. The vet also suggested it could be a heart problem which of course, would cause the breathing difficulties. I, of course, would never have thought of this. I was thinking something common or more obvious. She said they will be able to tell from the blood and x-rays what's going on a lot more.

Well, that's the update from today...sure wish it was better than it is. Henny is exhausted and very sullen after her ordeal this morning. She ran right out of the pet carrier and then into her nest box where she promptly went to sleep and still is


----------



## Pidgey

Same things happen to them when they get older that can happen to us for that matter. I didn't see an improvement in Winter that time until I'd gone to the Keflex, though. It just depends on the bug (if it is a bug).

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Pidgey said:


> Same things happen to them when they get older that can happen to us for that matter.
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, 

Well, I really hope my ole girl isn't getting "that old" yet...poor sweetie is only about 6. 

I did want to mention to everyone that my vet thought Henny was gorgeous. She never said anything about Eggbert but she really was taken by Henny. There was also a co-op student/assistant who was observing things. Just a young girl, maybe about 16, she thought Henny was beautiful too. She also said that Henny was the LARGEST pigeon she'd ever seen. LOL. I of course, educated her/them on the Giant Runt 

I also talked to a guy in the waiting room, a burly older man, thought I had a cockatoo in the carrier. When I told him it was a pigeon, conversation struck up! LOL. Who'da thought I'd meet a pigeon person at the vets. He told me he kept rollers and racers and had a big property with a couple of coops. He was actually having a physical done on his adorable cocker spaniel this time though. I was rather anxious about Henny however, and wasn't my usual talkative self.

Just letting you guys know that my vet trip held a few interesting aspects. Still waiting for the vet to call me back with the results!


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the detailed update.

Please keep us informed as to what the vet says.

Ron


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Well, I just got the call from the vet and she said everything was pretty much normal unfortunately. I know it sounds weird but you really do want to hear that this IS a problem; what it is and how to treat it. Yeast counts were low in the crop and fecal. There were normal amounts of gram - and gram + bacteria in the feces and crop. There were no signs of parasitic problems that she could tell, either coccidiosis or worms. She did say though, that there were a "few" MEGA BACTERIA present in the fecal. She said that she didn't believe there were enough of them to cause clinical symptoms of anything. 

This is a very unproductive evaluation...good and somewhat bad but not bad, enough! She asked me if I knew what megabacteria were and I told her I did. She said there is really no treatment and that even baytril won't handle these bacterium. She did stress though that the levels of them were not worth being concerned about and wants to go ahead with the blood tests and x-rays ASAP. I really hope she's not lying to me, or making me bring the bird in for more tests that aren't necessary = more money in her pocket. 

Not what I wanted to hear today, I had a gut feeling this was going to happen. Respiratory problems are so very difficult to diagnose, especially when all the usual culprits have been ruled out


----------



## Pidgey

Well, lately I've read that Megabacteria = Avian Gastric Yeast (AGY) and it's not a good thing.

Have I asked you before whether these birds get any pure sunlight?

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Pidgey said:


> Have I asked you before whether these birds get any pure sunlight?
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey...no they don't They are indoors remember and sunlight through glass doesn't cut it as you know. I was always hoping that I was giving them enough and the proper vitamins with vitamin D3 to make up for that. That, and my full spectrum lighting.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, get a leash and start taking Henny for walks out in the yard in full daylight.

It can be a real problem finding problems on the inside. You'd think that we'd have some super-easy blood test that could check for foreign toxins like the ones put out by various species of bacteria but we don't. There are things we can tell from the CBC but it's still guesswork.

PM me your email address and I'll see if I can get you some pages regarding disorders relating to malnutrition problems as well as other things. That's going to take awhile, though.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

I do understand how in a weird way you feel disappointed that nothing concrete at this point has been diagnosed, at least when they tell you it is this or that you know which way to go.

I don't know whether your vet does it or not, but as a matter of routine my vet gives me a copy of all lab tests done on our birds for our records. Perhaps if she does not do this you could ask her start to do this, to give you more confidence in the results as you have a copy.

Well, I guess it could be much worse at this point, at least you know you have eliminated a few areas where there could be problems. I would recommend, since Henny really is not herself, that you do the further tests to also eliminate anything that may be diagnosed through the blood work and x-rays.

Sometimes peace of mind does cost us a few extra dollars, and this may be one of those times.

I believe Pidgey's suggestion is a good one, especially with the warm weather fast approaching. A little fresh air and direct sunlight couldn't hurt.

Ron


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad, 

Sorry to hear about the dissappointing news from the vets, especially the possibility of Megabacteria. I was surprised to read this in your post:

"She said there is really no treatment and that even baytril won't handle these bacterium."

I've read that Baytril is used for secondary infections associated with Megabacteria, but not for the Megabacteria itself. It also doesn't seem to show up in all fecal samples so they recommend a series over a five day period. Seems like direct sunlight would be helpful, in addition to the ACV which you already use, possibly getting some Oxine AH and giving this a try. 
Although these remedies seem only to prevent more growth as opposed to actually correcting the problem. 

Anyway, you may have seen these links before, but just in case:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Megabacteria.html

http://www.petalk.com/megabacteria.html

Hope you are able to pinpoint the actual source of Henny's problem, and resolve her health issues.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Pidgey, Ron and Fp...

I'm going to try to get Henny outside into the sun as many times as I can this year. It's still not the warmest here yet, even though we did have a few nice days this past week.

Ron, no, the vet only gives me a copy of the BILL! LOL. It tells me what tests were run and the costs only. I agree with you though and I *think* I'm going ahead with the blood tests and x-rays to ease my own mind. Maybe some light will be shed from these, but if not, then I know I've done all I could.

FP, Thanks for those great links and no, I hadn't seen them. I was most surprised to hear about the megabacteria as well. It really makes me wonder why this is happening. Eggbert with the clostridium, now Henny with albeit it, "few" megabacteria. Where is this coming from? They are indoor birds and so well looked after. This makes me think maybe I am cleaning too much, but I just don't feel that I am. I'm not obsessive about it at all, just clean and thorough.

I must admit, I'm very nervous about taking her in for the x-rays. I believe the vet mentioned that she has to be anesthetized for this procedure. It scares me because there is always a risk that they never wake up from it. Especially since she's having the breathing problems, I wonder now if this could exacerbate the odds of her dying on the table

Today, Henny seemed wobbly and this was after flying down from her perch. Her tail is still bobbing and body heaving with each breath but, she's still eating well, drinking and preening. This is why I bought the liquid calcium, in case she's deficient and since I'm still withholding the grits. I'm going to start her on a whole whack of things for now. She's going to get probiotics every day for awhile and garlic. ACV in the water every day when I'm not using something else. I'm going to give her some pedialyte, liquid calcium and some extra vitamins while we try to get through this.


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## TAWhatley

Hi Brad,

I'm sorry things continue to be so inconclusive regarding Henny. I know it is a huge worry. I suspect that I would do as you are planning by having the x-rays and remaining tests done. I hope those will bring a definite diagnosis. 

Terry


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## TerriB

Wow, Brad, this is really a frustrating puzzle! It sure seems like you are covering all the bases, so hopefully things will turn around for Henny. Have either Ricky or Lucy shown any symptoms?


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## Pigeonpal2002

TerriB said:


> Wow, Brad, this is really a frustrating puzzle! It sure seems like you are covering all the bases, so hopefully things will turn around for Henny. Have either Ricky or Lucy shown any symptoms?



Hi Terri, 

Thank you for the concern. So far, Ricky and Lucy are fine...(BIG KNOCK ON WOOD) but they are separated from Henny & Eggbert in the room by a screened wall. 

They too are getting more probiotics and vitamins to help their immune systems and general health.


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## Maggie-NC

Brad, don't know what kind of x-ray your vet plans to do but as a general rule, ours does not give them anesthesia for an x-ray. The little dove, Milo, that I've written about is the most recent to have an x-ray (radiograph is what the vet calls it) to check for yeast infection and she didn't anesthesize him. It only takes a jiffy to do the x-ray....but a long time waiting for them to be processed.

We're all worried about Henny.


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## TerriB

Lady Tarheel said:


> ...ours does not give them anesthesia for an x-ray...


That's good information to know. Bird's sensitivity to anesthesia is always a something to keep in mind.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Just wanted to give everyone an update on Henny since I haven't posted all week about her. Monday past I had an appointment to take Henny in for the x-rays and blood work for 8am. Unfortunately, I got tied up at work longer than usual and was unable to make the appointment.

After thinking further about it and with a nagging feeling in my gut, I decided not to re-book the appointment. I felt that something wasn't right with this. I don't know whether it was a feeling that something would happen to Henny or that the vet was taking me for a ride, but I didn't (Maggie, I might have been wrong about the anesthesia, it was just what I thought I remembered the vet mentioning).

Last Sunday, Henny appeared weak and wobbly...this was the first time since she's been sick that I saw her act like this. I promptly started her on a 3 day course of liquid calcium in the water. She also has been getting probiotics and garlic caps every day since. I'm not sure what did it but there HAS been some improvement. Her breathing is a little better and she's not weak and wobbly anymore. One thing that continues, is the vomiting. She vomits every morning and night, not sure how many other times during the day though. She's still eating very well and drinking properly.

After the calcium, I started giving her an appropriate amount of powdered vitamins, mixed into a probiotic capsule. She has had 3 doses of vitamins this week, including today.

I'm really at a loss of what this is, I think we can safely say that canker & candida aren't the problem. Those are two things that can cause vomiting, but I haven't treated her for worms yet. Worms are another thing that can cause vomiting even though the vet said there was no evidence of worms in the stools. The vet did mention the megabacteria, but she said that there was only a "few" present and not an overgrowth. I'm tending to think now this is not worms either, but the symtoms are there. She eats like a pig, she has lost weight and she is weak or was....worms in high numbers can cause enemia.

Whatever this is, it's not deadly...she's not getting worse now and I'm sure that there is improvement. Last week I couldn't tell for sure but she did end up getting worse with the wobbling problem by week's end. I'm wondering if this is just a cold, or another virus she's got to "ride out" on her own.

I'm going to continue providing her with all the good stuffs, the natural products and watch her closely. I still may have to go back to the vets but for now, I'm uneasy about it and unsure whether it will make a lick of difference.

Well, that's about it for now.


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## Skyeking

Brad,

Can you give her some time to rehab in a nice sunny location? It might be good for her to get some "fun under the sun" if weather permits, on a daily basis. It may help.


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## Pidgey

Here's a page that discusses avian regurgitation/vomiting problems:

http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinicalreviewcve/article300.asp

If your vet does put Henny under, it'll be with Forane (Isofluorane) and that's not too risky--wonderful general. The worry with it is that they'll aspirate crop contents on the way back up. You can hold the bird'S head up as it's coming out and you can also withhold food and water for several hours before. You need to anyway to get a clear radiograph of the crop since that's one of the places that you're looking for anomalies.

I'd opt for the X-Ray, if it were me.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Pidgey, Treesa...thanks,

I'll try getting Henny out into the sun this weekend if the weather co-operates. Pidgey, yes, I've seen that website before but thanks


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

I just realized I forgot completely to mention a thing about Henny's droppings. They are kind of smelly, not over powering or anything but when you sniff them up close, they do smell kind of pungent. They are also dark green all the time now but mostly firm, not runny or watery at all. Could this be from all the probiotics I've been giving her? She's had a probiotic capsule every day now for over a week. Treesa, I meant to ask you, is it ok to give probiotics and garlic at the same time? As I understand it, garlic can kill some bacteria so would this have an effect on the potency of the probiotics?

This is really a weird one folks with Henny and she has improved a bit, but not like I would like to see or fast enough. I'm wondering if the vet was wrong or that the Megabacteria have multiplied at a high rate and this is her problem. 

Tomorrow, I'm going to treat her and Eggbert with Moxidectin for worms and then the next 2-3 days with Baycox for Coccidiosis. Those are the only other things that she really hasn't been treated for and some of the symptoms of worms and cocci are present in Henny.


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## Pidgey

Megabacteria ("Avian Gastric Yeast" or AGY) is thought to be a fungal infection and only really responds to Amphotericin B and Fluconazole. In low numbers, it's not thought to be that bad. In higher numbers, it has been known to cause the bird to go down. There is mixed information as to the efficacy of treatment. Fluconazole is expensive enough that it's a really serious outlay. Nothing else has been shown to have an effect. Don't have any personal experience with it.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Pidgey, 

Do you have any gut feelings about the stinky poops then? How do you feel this fits in with the other syptoms of the heavy breathing and the vomiting? You'd really think that with all I've used to treat, the metro, the spartrix, the baytril, and the turbosole, that a lot of things have been covered. However, I've used nothing to treat for worms and cocci of course.


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## Pidgey

You can't imagine how tough it is sometimes to find an internal infection that's causing a septicemia. If I were going to suspect something and figure a test to go looking for it, I'd probably insert a cannula in the cloaca up through to the oviduct and get a swab to Gram-stain out of there. A CBC (Complete Blood Count) could tell your vet vaguely if her immune system is fighting some kind of infection.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Coccidiosis does make for a pungent odor. However, your vet's already done a fecal because Henny's been sick for awhile and that didn't show up, did it? A long time ago when I did that microscope thread, you'd said that you'd rather let your vet take care of those kinda' things. In the bulk of the year since I wrote that, I've only become more sold on the idea of having one. I helped Snowbird buy one on eBay recently that he got for $46 + S/H and that one had everything you need to do fecal floats for coccidia and worms.

Anyhow, I will say this--sometimes the oocysts (things in the fecal that may be counted to determine whether the disease state of coccidiosis exists) don't show up in large numbers in the float. That's something that sometimes happens during the course of the disease. That's a good reason for taking several over a period of a few days.

Niether heavy breathing nor vomiting is a symptom of Coccidiosis, though. However, the heavy (labored) breathing did show up in Winter when she had the oviduct problem. That could have been E. coli in the oviduct originally or some other infection. I just found her in bad shape when I came home from that trip. In all likelihood, she was feeling slightly bad for quite awhile.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Thanks Pidgey,
> 
> Do you have any gut feelings about the stinky poops then? How do you feel this fits in with the other syptoms of the heavy breathing and the vomiting? You'd really think that with all I've used to treat, the metro, the spartrix, the baytril, and the turbosole, that a lot of things have been covered. However, I've used nothing to treat for worms and cocci of course.


You haven't used anything for a lot of different internal infections, either. For instance, do you remember in the last post of that oviduct thread that Lin Hansen's sister-in-law posted that Baytril didn't get "anaerobes" and Cephalexin (Keflex) did? You haven't done anything to go after that particular kind of bug yet, either.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Thanks Pidgey,
> 
> Do you have any gut feelings about the stinky poops then? How do you feel this fits in with the other syptoms of the heavy breathing and the vomiting? You'd really think that with all I've used to treat, the metro, the spartrix, the baytril, and the turbosole, that a lot of things have been covered. However, I've used nothing to treat for worms and cocci of course.


Hi Brad,

Stinky poops? Well, coccidiosis is one culprit. A link I found had a chart that I posted here that didn't list worms in the column for stinky poops, but I would disagree w/that. They are foreign bodies in the intestinal track that 
sometimes die there in addition to other reasons why it would change the odor. So I would say yes on worms, maybe not in a less severe case, but you might say that of coccidiosis as well. Trich and fungus will have an odor as well. Wish we could bottle the odors and label them.....

Think they are also using Itraconazole for treating megabacteria as well, it's supposed to be a little more forgiving than Ketraconazole.
Although the zoles themselves can cause vomiting during the course of treatment. The amphotericin B is being offered by Vetafarm through Jedd's:

http://www.jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=63&SubCategoryID=1406

The probiotics are recommended for birds w/megabacteria issues, along w/an acidic environment in general:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Megabacteria.html

I've also noticed in several articles about being able to 'turn it around' through supplements, although it is a cautious statement. In other words, birds that aren't on death's door with it can have it's growth controlled through supplements and achieve stability that way. 
Scroll down on this link to the 'bacteria' section, ignoring of course that megabacteria is otherwise. Thought there were some interesting comments made there.

http://www.petmedicinechest.com/avian/casestudies.asp


I personally don't worry about natural antibiotics with probiotics, while they have an antibacterial 'action', they are not pre-emptive stike in nature in the same way that the prescription ones are. In fact many themselves contain good bacteria which along w/the acidic nature of the supplement in itself fights bacteria.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Pidgey, FP...Thank you both for all the information and taking the time to weigh in on the situation as much as you both have.

Pidgey, I'm not as medically informed as you, can you give me a few examples of diseases caused by anaerobic bacterium, and that also might fit the symptoms in Henny? The throwing up is persisting, and is worrying me the most. 

You're correct, the vet did a fecal on Henny and said that oocyst levels were normal but I forget exactly what she said about any evidence of worms or if she did even. I'll have to call her back and get her to go over all the test results again with me. She basically said all the levels were normal for yeasts and bacteria etc. in all the tests run from the crop smear and fecal.

I don't think I really need a microscope for 4 pigeons and I'm never buying anything from E-bay again anyway after I got majorily rooked on some purchases before I don't rescue/rehab or have enough pigeons to truly justify having a microscope. 

This situation is just a really strange occurance with Henny. I know you really feel that there is a good possibility that this is an oviduct problem, maybe you're right. I really hope it's not the case because honestly, I can't afford to have the surgery done. My vet(s) really don't work with me, and I've already spent $400 between the 2 vet visits for Henny and Eggbert. The next steps were the blood tests and the x-rays at a cost of $350. What if the vet can't see an oviduct problem? The vet would first have to diagnose the oviduct infection first and THEN suggest surgery. Then I'll be back at square one and will have spent $750 . Then, what if one of my youngsters gets sick from all of this and requires another $200 trip to that woman? I'm sure you can see how this is adding up. I do the best I can for my birds but I don't have an unlimited source of cash


FP, thanks for the great links again as always. I didn't realize that Jedd's sold a product for Megabacteria/AGY, I see it's quite expensive as well. That product would end up costing me nearly $200 after exchange and shipping to Canada and may not even help or work though. I just spent $200 on supplies as well for my pigeons and so far, none of the products have been of use or worked. Haven't tried the baycox or the moxidectin yet however.

I do agree with you though, I haven't heard of worms causing stinky droppings before either but it does certainly seem possible or likely. Worms produce toxins and poisons that would smell likely when pooped out. 

Canker I know produces sourish smelling droppings but if Henny has canker after all she's been treated with (carnidazole, metronidazole, and ronidazole) then I don't know what will cure her of it. 

I'm starting to feel trapped in this situation and powerless. I'm starting to wonder if I'm fighting a losing battle since it's been over 3 weeks now since she's been sick

I'm going to try the wormer this morning and see if that helps, then the baycox and see how that goes. After that, I guess I may decide on going back for blood tests.

Thanks folks,


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## Pidgey

Well, first, you need to think of disease a bit more broadly. Take pneumonia, for instance--an infection of the lungs BUT it can be caused by a lot of things (Klebsiella pneumoniae, Staphylococcus pneumoniae, Streptococcus spp., Mycoplasm spp., ad nauseum; fungal species of few types; viral pathogens of several types).

That said, naming the disease is a lot different than figuring out the cause of the disease. So, maybe we need to step back a bit and figure out first whether Henny is vomiting or regurgitating since that's useful in differentiating diseases where this is a symptom. If you can find some pH papers and measure the acidity/alkalinity of the vomit, it could be helpful. Slightly alkaline (7.0 to 7.5) would indicate from the crop. Acidity (< 7.0), bile-tinged and partly digested vomit would indicate that it was from the proventriculus.

When I have felt that vomiting in my birds was due to an obstruction, I have taken them off solid food and crop-fed them Kaytee to test the theory. They will still vomit for a day or so if that's the case to clear out some piece of corn or whatnot but then it clears up and they start feeling better right up until you let them take a stab at solid food again.

In the case of an obstruction (worms; a mass or tumor that's putting pressure on the GI; a constriction), there's usually a limit to the poop that makes it out to the back. If you're getting nearly the same amount through while she's eating enough to vomit and poop normally, then an obstruction usually isn't it.

If that's the case, then you may be headed in other directions with the diagnosis. You never thought that hens could get morning sickness, did you? There are endocrinological (hormones) problems (imbalances) that can cause nausea in birds as well as us, the worst-case scenario of which would probably be cancer, by the way. Anyhow, try to figure out how the symptoms that you're seeing compare to the notes above for the moment. 

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Brad,

I'm sorry I didn't see your question earlier, I never give probiotics and garlic together. I will "pop" a probiotic in the morning and garlic in the afternon.

I'm so sorry that Henny is still not feeling well. I know how frustrating this must be for you, as I know you are doing everything you can for her.

I have never experienced any of my hens throwing up, that have oviduct problems, there are plenty of other symptoms, including the breathing, rounded back, poop issues, age. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible. 

How old is Henny now? Has she layed eggs regurlarly, did she lay recently?
What are her latest symptoms?

My hens with oviduct issues have been around 4 to 5 years of age. I have one hen now who has stopped laying, but she has produced many eggs in the past. She has none of the symptoms of any of my oviduct issue hens and is just fine, perhaps she is in menopause...or something.

I know you have her on the probiotics, and I wouldn't give that up as it is very important with stress and gut issues. 

Why don't you review the natural antibiotic thread, and see if this is something you would like to try on Henny. It is well worth doing, you can work on any infection issue she may have, and detox her at the same time, like the liver and such, without the added burden of drugs on her system. When you talk about her throwing up, it just makes me think perhaps she may need a good "spring cleaning." 

Perhaps, some time out doors- , a change in treatment, and alot of natural remedies might do the trick. Let me know if I can help.


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## Pidgey

Another small possibility is that she might have eaten something that she shouldn't have eaten like a staple or something metal with a zinc coating. I don't see vomiting specifically mentioned as a symptom but then the symptoms are more for the acute disease rather than the chronic one. You can read a little about zinc poisoning here:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww14eiii.htm

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

The reason I bring that up is because Henny has done some strange things before:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11814

And I can't help but wonder what else she might have licked or chewed for whatever reason.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Vomiting is mentioned in this article on heavy-metal poisoning by a vet:

http://www.petcarevabeach.com/toxic.html

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

Actually, I first off didn't realize that you have to pay something other than the shipping that we pay here to get meds accross your border. But, in any case,
I wouldn't suggest that you simply purchase and give Amphotericin B to your birds on GP as the medication is a harsh one, and a big gun. I like to save 'big guns' for 'known' invasions, or such a crisis as to warrant one and the choice would be a good candidate under the circumstances. I think treating for worms & coccidia would be a good idea, and since there are some possitive results for containing megabacteria in non-crisis birds, then that to me, would be a no-brainer.

Also, Pidgey's suggestion of PH paper also is a good one to further isolate and get more information as to the origin of the vomit/regurgitation. Don't think you could go wrong w/theses approaches, as long as Henny continues to show improvement or some stabilizing.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Pidgey, Treesa and Fp....thanks again for assisting me to figure things out, it's very much appreciated.

Pidgey, maybe I should have clarified myself before when I was using the term vomiting. I can tell you this, it's coming from the crop..the seeds are coming up whole and barely softened. There is never very much at a time; perhaps 4 kernels of corn, a few peas and maybe 10 other small seeds like rice, milo or wheat. Sometimes, the regurgitation/vomit is dry, just really the moistened seeds coming up and other times there is a sticky, mucousy but clear fluid in a small puddle. Her vomit is never partially digested seeds and the fluid never has a colour to it. There is a slight smell to the fluid/vomit but nothing repulsive or obviously offensive.

As for the amount coming out her mouth and back end compared to what she's eating, I'm really not sure. My birds are provided with food all day long because I sleep during the day. Therefore, it's impossible for me to know if the amount going in is the same as coming out. What I'm going to try though is offering pellets only to them for a few days...do you think this might help determine whether or not there is a blockage? The pellets should soften nicely in the crop and should become easily digestable like formula instead of the hard, and much larger seeds that need to be grinded and softened to be digested fully.

I can't see how this could be poisoning by ingesting a heavy metal object or any metal object for that matter. There is really no metal in their room at all other than the screws that hold the wall/barrier together that separates Henny & Eggbert from the youngsters on the other side of the room. I vacuum their room every single day and I'm very thorough, getting into every nook, crack and corner to ensure there is never anything around. So, the really only possibility would be her licking the screws but I've never seen her do this, only the plastic mesh on the barrier.

Treesa, actually, Henny does have a bit of a hunched back appearance, slight but I forgot about this. Well, I figured that this could be due to a number of reasons such as bacteria or any discomfort in the intestines, such as cocci or even worms. I don't know how old Henny is, she's not banded but I figure she between 5 & 6 years old, she was about a year old the breeder said when I got her. Henny has never laid eggs regularly. She usually goes for months during the winter without laying and will resume again in early spring. She lays about 3 sets of eggs per year on average but she hasn't laid any eggs now probably since November or December last year. Her symptoms are the heavy breathing (although this has gotten better), the regurgitating, the stinky poops that are dark green, and she sleeps a lot. 

I went over your Natural Remedies thread again and nothing really struck me as something to try, other than perhaps the colloidal silver. I'm giving her the garlic, probiotics, vitamins, liquid calcium and ACV already. She hasn't had any "real" drugs in about 10 days now so she's had a good break from medicine now. The garlic I've been giving her every day for the last 8 days but at the same time as the probiotics.

FP, Yes...when I order something from the USA, and for example the Amphotericin-B @ $149, I would pay the state taxes on that, then the shipping charges from the USA to Canada, the exchange rate on the dollar (ours is not worth as much as yours), then I would have to pay duty and postal services charges again once it arrived at the post office here. Nothing ever arrives in less than 2 weeks time either, even with priority post. I guess this is because it has to get through customs and approved, and there isn't even a guarantee by the pigeon supply houses that it will arrive and they won't refund you either if the package is confiscated at the border.

I did put the moxidectin in Henny & Eggbert's drinking water this morning, I figure they are due to be wormed anyway and since I know that they've both had worms (round & hair) in the past, I think it's definitely worth a try. I'm also going to go ahead with the baycox tomorrow and the following day because I can't even remember that last time I treated them for cocci. Worms and cocci are very prevelant in pigeons so it's worth a shot and since it's something I haven't tried yet.

Well, I hope I've answered everyone's questions and I've been thorough in giving all the details with Henny, what I've done and observed.

Thanks again folks,


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## Skyeking

Hi Brad,

I talked to my rehabber today (Doreen) and during our long conversation I mentioned Henny.

She said it could be toxins, oviduct infection, or infection elsewhere. Doreen
said anytime they do have the huntchback, it is usually something is stuck. If not, it still could be oviduct infection.

Here is what she recommended:

For throwing up, a little chamomile tea- settles and smooths the intestines , just make enough that it slightly colors the water. 

For upset stomach, the Nux Vomica is also very beneficial, I have used that.

If there are any crop issues, like candidia, use a dropper of Sovereign Silver in her drinking water. Great for any infection, as well as continue garlic caps, give each day. The Reishi in my thread, is another powerful anti-infectant and detoxer. Reti and I have both used these products now, with wonderful results.

Use olive oil to help loosten anything and clean out "the plumbing", if you suspect a blockage. You can give her a couple of drops each day..

She recommend the chapparell tea, for deworming, since she has possibly an upset stomach, and if you are going to worm her this might be easier on her.

Last but not least, she just got a product called "hen" which is made by Thomas Labs and is specifically for egg-related/oviduct issues. I just checked their website. It doesn't say much but it is loaded with excellent homeopathics for our hens, according to Doreen. She got it from a pigeon supplier who has had pigeons for 30 years. I will be ordering it myself, directly from them or from local supplier.

http://www.thomaslabs.com/thomaslabs_124.htm

I guess about now you are overwhelmed with responses, but if you are not certain what Henny has, it may be best to try these natural products, there is no-interaction, no side effects, and may possibly just get her back to optimum health. Takes the guess work out, cause you can treat her by her symptoms.

Doreen got a 1 day old baby buzzard in that fell out of the nest, still has the egg tooth and all. That is a first for her & a month old fuzzy red sand hill crane who could not be fostered. Imagine what she is feeding them.....and keeping busy, as always.


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## Pidgey

I have a couple of friends that loved birds and one day while at the lake, they decided to steal a buzzard chick and raise it. They'd had a lot of different birds in their time. Anyhow, it didn't take them long, as they were going down the road to figure out that they had to drive with the windows down (in the hot summer) with the air conditioning blowing full bore because the little feller stunk like roadkill. Everytime they (I'm laughing my hiney off as I type this) stopped for a traffic light, the pungent fumes from the little fellow wafted forward and overwhelmed them (I'm crying...) almost out of the car. Ahh... he grew up thinking that a dogfood can was his mother... because the boys... couldn't take it very well. Eventually, he grew to adulthood and became somewhat normal. I really hate to laugh at such a blatant disregard for wildlife laws but it's a long time ago, they were kids and they were punished for their deed!

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

I just can't resist attaching this picture given the posts by Treesa and Pidgey. I don't think Brad will mind since he loves all the birds too. This is a baby black vulture, just a few weeks old.


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## Pidgey

Can't be--look at the calves and ankles... it's a human in a BIGBIRD suit! You don't suppose that this is really Carl, Sr., do you?

Bad Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

I repeat......you are so funny.


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## mr squeaks

Oh, Lord, my stomach STILL hurts from laughing, Pidgey! Windows down?? A dog food can??? Oh, dear, here I go again...   

Sooo funny!

TOO TOO BAD, you don't have time to write a book, Pidgey, with just your post replies...

Probably just as well, I'd never survive the reading because I'd die laughing!


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## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> Can't be--look at the calves and ankles... it's a human in a BIGBIRD suit! You don't suppose that this is really Carl, Sr., do you?
> 
> Bad Pidgey


ROFL! Should we ask???


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Treesa, 

Thank you for all the information passed onto you from Doreen. I appreciate you asking her about Henny. I might see about getting some sovereign silver. I might try the olive oil and the chamomile tea as well. You're right, there is nothing harmful about any of these things and it may help somewhat in combination with the other things I'm currently giving her.

I had already added the wormer to the birds drinking water before you had posted your reply. We shall see how she is when I get home in a few hours from now.

Thanks again Treesa.


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## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

I have been away for a few days and have just now caught on this thread.

You know Brad I don't think it would hurt, and might even do a lot of good trying Henny on some Aloe Vera. I think I have mentioned somewhere before where one of our bids was doing poorly even after being on antibiotics for a number of days. We started her on some fresh Aloe Vera gel, made from crushing a piece of fresh Aloe leaf and a little water, and this this made a remarkable difference in her, it's a wonderful detoxifier.

Also. there is still the other possibility that Pidgey mentioned, that she has an infection of some sort that has yet to be diagnosed and that has not been hit yet with the correct antibiotic so far.

Ron


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Just another update on how things are going with Henny. Thanks Ron for the idea about the aloe vera and as we discussed already.

Henny and Eggbert have been eating a pigeon pellet diet only all week, no seeds. They don't really like them as a complete diet, but I felt it would help with Henny and her throwing up. I've seen her attempt to vomit this week, but I don't think she actually is. My thinking was that the pellets would soften nicely in her crop with water and if there was a blockage, they'd digest easier. As far as I can tell, it has helped as far as the food goes.

After I gave her the worming medication, I saw no improvement and gave her another break from meds. In fact, all week all she got was some probiotic and garlic capsules. Now that there are no seeds on the ground, only pellets, it's easier to see that she vomited some of the capsules up. I am wondering if she vomited a lot of them up before and I never noticed them on the floor among all the scattered seeds. I checked the vacuum cleaner and sure enough, there was some garlic caps and probiotic capsules in there I wonder if she threw up a lot of the pills I put down her throat, the baytril, the metro, etc. This is a big problem really, if she never was keeping them down and getting the proper doses.

Today, I've started her on the coccidiosis medicine (in the water). This is my last idea and medicine to try with her. Yesterday she looked really sick, in fact I thought I'd wake up this morning to find her dead. Today, she didn't look nearly as bad but she's still sick. If the cocci meds don't work, then I don't know what the problem is, I've tried everything. 

I'm wondering if this is a genetic problem, perhaps a heart defect...my vet actually suggested this. I'm also wondering if it's a bacterial infection that the medicines I've tried haven't been the appropriate ones or she didn't get the required doses. 

I have a question to the more medically experienced members. If this *is* a bacterial infection, how long can Henny go like this. Wouldn't an overgrowth of bacteria killed her by now, wherever it was? If this is an oviduct problem as Pidgey suspected, wouldn't this have killed her by now as well? She's been sick now for over a month. If this is a heart problem, then there is really nothing I can do


Thanks folks, I wish I had a better update.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Brad, I am so sorry to read that Henny is still no better. I think of both of you often. I can't speak to the bacterial questions but one suggestion I have is to weigh her often. Many times when you switch "cold turkey" from a seed diet to a pellet diet, birds will go hungry rather than eat the pellets. Right now, if it were me, I would still give her some of her regular food to make sure she gets something down. If you weigh her you can have a better grasp on her overall health.

Hang in there and know we are all thinking of you.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I don't necessarily think that it is an oviduct problem--there would be other signs in that case. And Winter didn't throw up, either. What I was saying was that there are bugs that the medications that you've used will not touch that also happened with Winter's oviduct problem.

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks

Darn, Brad! I'm so sorry that Henny isn't improving. Sure wish I could wave a magic wand and she would be healed!

I can only send LOTS of WARM HEALING THOUGHTS and hope for the best!

I sure hope it's not some type of poisoning and if so, what ???


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

First of all I just want to second what Maggie said about switching diets, it's quite well know, at least with parrots, that a switch from a seed based diet to a pelleted diet should be done gradually, maybe the same would apply for pigeons. A cold turkey change can result in them not eating at all.

Second, Brad I was thinking about it and perhaps an idea for you would be to make an appointment at the University of Guelph Small Animal Clinic. I think I have mentioned before that they have a terrific avian professor, Dr. Mike Taylor there, if anyone in our country can figure out what is wrong with Henny it's him. The bonus is that the charges they levy there are about half what I pay at my regular avian vet, and since they are a teaching animal hospital they are extremely thorough with all tests and procedures. At a minimum I think it would be a good idea to get blood work done on her, by doing this there will quickly be an answer is an infection is happening.

If you PM me I will give you the number and a few suggestions for when you call.

Ron


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you Maggie, Shi, Pidgey and Ron for the warm messages. The birds are actually used to eating the pellets and I didn't switch their diet cold turkey really. There are pellets in their mix about about 25% of the mix. They are eating the pellets as a complete diet very well actually. I put 2 full cups of pellets in their bowl and by the next day, the dish is just about empty. It's just I know that they like their seeds too and seem to be looking for them but they aren't going hungry at all...no worries.

Ron, I just might try the teaching hosptical in Guelph if needed. I've heard good things about it myself before and if they levy half the charges, that's great! Of course, that's a long drive from my house, but I'd be willing to take a day off to do it.

I'll see how she is after the 3 days of the cocci meds and if there is any improvement come tomorrow. Can you PM me the information Ron? 

Thanks folks,


----------



## Maggie-NC

Brad, how is Henny?


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Maggie, 

Henny is doing ok, thank you for asking. I meant to respond to this earlier then forgot. I'm not really rowing with both oars lately for some reason 

Anyway, I think Henny is improving somewhat. Her breathing is not as laboured and the tail "bob" associated with that has nearly stopped. Her and Eggbert are still on the pellets only for now and Henny is still getting garlic, probiotics and vitamins.

Her poops really stink though....like rotten eggs or sulphur. You don't notice the smell until you sniff the poops up close however. They are well formed mostly though, greener than they should be as well. 

Another good sign is she isn't sleeping as much as she was, she quite a bit more active as well.

Nothing else to report though, but thanks for asking about her


----------



## jimmyrenex

Glad to hear Henny is coming along........


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

Just catching up on this thread, and I see Ron's offer to hook you up w/the teaching clinic. I'm wondering if you might be connecting w/these folks and if they are close by enough that you could work w/them. 

I also have a habit of poop-siffing, must say, it needs to be done w/extreme
caution....I've misjudged distances from time to time  

fp


----------



## mr squeaks

*I also have a habit of poop-siffing, must say, it needs to be done w/extreme
caution....I've misjudged distances from time to time * 

YIKES! Uh, perhaps some glasses, fp???


----------



## Nooti

Today, I've started her on the coccidiosis medicine (in the water). 
***************************
What you using Brad? Cocci was my first thought. It often causes vomiting. You will need to treat both birds or they will reinfect each other.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Helen, 

I used Baycox for 3 days in the water. It only recommended two days but I gave for longer, just in case.


----------



## Nooti

Brad - would you be able to physically dose both birds twice a day rather than putting the drug in the drinking water?


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Helen, 

I could I suppose....do you still feel this is coccidiosis? It's rather strange because Eggbert seems totally fine and uneffected. As clean and thorough as I am, I'm sure he's ingested Henny's fecal matter at some point.

I'm leaning towards a bacterial infection....she was diagnosed with "mega bacteria" in in "small numbers". She's really having a hard time keeping anything down however which is why I've got the birds on pellets at this time. I tried giving her seeds last weekend, just a small amount but she threw them up shortly afterwards.


----------



## Nooti

Can you get hold of amoxycillin and the trimethoprim sulphamethoxazole drug I think they call it Bactrim over the pond? Just wondering if I can send you some but it could take a while even by airmail. Would be quicker if you could get hold of it yourself.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Helen, 

Thanks, yes, I could probably get some bactrim if needed...somewhere. I was just messaging you about this exact thing.

I'll see if I can get this drug, Ron may have it actually.


----------



## Nooti

A combination of both that and amoxy will touch just about everything. And if you can cope then a good 10 days. I can give you a safe dosage in the upper limits if you can let me have the mg/kilo strength of the drug and Henny's weight.
I don't rate Baytril at all - except when treating paratyphoid and for obvious upper respiratory infections involving aerobic bacteria, and even then I find amoxy a better prospect for the URI.
If the combi doesn't do the trick then I suspect you are looking at something serious such a tumour or kidney/liver problems.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks again Helen

I will see if I can get the bactrim. Ron, if you're listening, I hope you can help me out with this


----------



## feralpigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Helen,
> 
> I could I suppose....do you still feel this is coccidiosis? It's rather strange because Eggbert seems totally fine and uneffected. As clean and thorough as I am, I'm sure he's ingested Henny's fecal matter at some point.
> 
> I'm leaning towards a bacterial infection....she was diagnosed with "mega bacteria" in in "small numbers". She's really having a hard time keeping anything down however which is why I've got the birds on pellets at this time. I tried giving her seeds last weekend, just a small amount but she threw them up shortly afterwards.


Brad, an excerpt from this article:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Megabacteria.html

"Megabacteria infection is diagnosed usually by microscopic examination of a bird’s dropping. However, our understanding of the disease that Megabacteria causes has changed since the organism was first identified. What we used to believe was that if the organism was found in a bird’s dropping, then this would be the cause of any digestive tract health problem it was experiencing and that the bird should be immediately treated. We now realise that this is not necessarily the case. We now know that although the organism can cause disease in its own right, it is more often a secondary agent, only becoming involved after some other disease or poor management practice has already weakened the birds, making them more vulnerable to disease generally.

Also, recent work at the University of Melbourne has shown that the organism is not a bacterium at all but rather a yeast and indeed the pattern of disease it causes is more typical of yeasts rather than many bacteria. As a result of this recent work, the organism has been renamed and now should be called by its correct name Avian Gastric Yeast. However, the term Megabacteria is so entrenched that its use is likely to persist. "

So if you are treating for megabacteria, then you'd want Itraconazole or Amphotericin B wouldn't you?

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

feralpigeon said:


> So if you are treating for megabacteria, then you'd want Itraconazole or Amphotericin B wouldn't you?
> 
> fp


Hi FP, 

I have NO idea whether or not I'm treating for mega bacteria, AKA avian gastric yeast. I can only go by what my vet said and that was (according to the lab work), minimal amounts of megabacteria were present, nothing of great concern at this time. She didnt' seem overly worried about this really....means little, I KNOW!

The costs of the drugs to treat this disease (if I'm dealing with Megabacteria) are huge and uncertain. I'm not even sure I can get it from my vets and I know Ron doesn't have these meds. I get the feeling that the tests were inconclusive, that the vet could only go by one sample at this particular time. I may go back for another fecal. Isn't it possible that something else was missed and that the megabacteria levels were within acceptable ranges and might not have been the real problem? 

Perhaps Henny has become compromised from whatever is affecting her and things have started to spiral out of control. Her own immune response has certainly kicked in and is fighting this with the aid of vitamins, probiotics and the garlic but is not quite effective enough at this later stage.

What I don't get is the fact that regardless if this is viral, bacterial, or fungal...Eggbert isn't getting sick. Henny has been sick now for over a month and yet, Eggbert is showing no signs of this illness that he *should* have contracted from either feces, copulation, feather dust or water contamination.

I think my last option is the bactrim, if I can get it. Blood tests and x-rays might only provide me with answers that I can't fix anyway. Operations, expensive therapies and guess work are out of the question, unfortunately

Thanks all and Jimmy for your kind words This is one big mystery and not your text book case by any means...


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

Bactrim is one of the antibiotics that I don't have, I will list what I have in case Helen thinks any may be useful; Amoxicillin, Cipro, Keflex, Chloramfenicol, Doxycycline, Minocycline, Clarithromycin, Azithromycin and Ketek.

I so am glad to hear Henny is no worse, and in fact a little better. Let me know if I can help.

Ron

PS: Also have Nystatin and Metronidazole and Tinidazole.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Brad, if you remember, a little dove we have (Milo) had a really bad yeast infection and was put on Itraconazole. It seems to have worked because he is pretty much ok now. Weight is still down a little but we're working on that. Now, I never noticed anything out of the ordinary about his poop, smell or otherwise. Itraconazole is pricey, best I remember it was about $80 for just enough to cover 7-10 days dosage. We had to have ours made up by a compounding pharmacy. It is a drug for a one time only use. It has to be refrigerated and tossed after finishing up.

Now, the last little dove we just got in that supposedly had a head trauma actually had trich. His poop was so bad. I have never seen anything like it from a dove - looked more like a pigeon's poop. It was smelly, blackish/green and a lot of it.  With 3 days of metronidazole it is back normal - well, mostly normal because the little devil won't eat his seed so we're feeding him exact.

Bactrim is much less expensive. You don't need to refrigerate and it is a med that I keep on hand all the time. You should be able to order it from any of the pigeon supply houses. If I could recommend two drugs to keep on hand they would be Bactrim and Nystatin.


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

Just double checking, because you mentioned again the megabacteria and thinking it was bacteria, that's why I placed the quote about the organism.
Also, to be cautious as well if she does have the AGY in terms of antibiotics.

Both coccidiosis and trichomoniasis have alot to do with an individual bird's immune system response since they all/most have it in their systems in a state of host equilibrium. So Eggbert could be in the same living quarters and continue along w/out the same issues as Henny, this would be possible. It does all seem odd in that the vet is unable to find anything out of the unusual range in the poops. Maybe a mega-poop sample from both of their poops in a baggie for just the fecal tests? Maybe it was a sample issue, or possibly human error.

It does sound as though she is improving all though not with the type of rebound one would hope for after the meds you've given her. And not to the point where you can heave a sigh of relief. Was Henny on pellets when you treated her w/Baytril. I ask because my understanding is that pellets contain calcium supplements. Perhaps this could have had a diminishing effect for the Baytril, or then again, simply not the right choice of antibiotic.

You've got us all scratching our heads, Brad, that's for sure.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Ron, Maggie and FP, 

Isn't that typical Ron, that you wouldn't have that one antibiotic, LOL. That's ok really, maybe I can get it from my vets if I push hard enough...doubtful though. I could order it online but it'll take a couple of weeks to get here.

Yes, I remember Milo's case Maggie and you posting about the itraconazole and how it worked for him. As for your recent case with the dove and using metro, I've had Henny on Metro and that didn't work either

FP, thanks for your post and suggestions. I just may try to get some more poops analyzed and see what comes from that. To answer your question, "yes & no", Henny was not on the full pellet diet when I gave her the baytril. There were some pellets in the mix however.

Today, Henny had poops stuck to her vent again. I thought I had that under control and she was having no problems with that recently. I used the glycerin to moisturize her vent and this appeared to fix that problem.

I picked them all off and washed her vent again with some saline and then re-applied the glycerin lotion lightly. This is really odd. She's had no grit now for weeks at all and she's eating pellets only. Things should be moving nicely inside.

I have to wonder, if this all stems back to the grit that seemed to have caused this from the very start. I had bought that new type of grit and both the birds were eating tons of it. This whole thing started with both Henny and Eggbert getting poops stuck to their bums. However, Eggbert's poops stopped sticking but obviously Henny's hasn't. 

Maybe this is some king of blockage or impaction of all that grit trying to pass through her digestive system I can't understand why her poops are sticking to her vent, they are not overly sticky to begin with nor are they dry really. 

*sigh*, this is all so confusing.

Thanks folks,


----------



## Pidgey

Yes, Brad, you've managed to come up with one of the most baffling cases. I kind of expect that sort of thing out of folks that find sick rescues but not from a bird that lives a cleaner lifestyle than I do.

Poop sticks to vent feathers for a variety of reasons: the bird isn't feeling strong enough to move out of it if it's laying in it; it's oozing out or leaving mucoid strings that stick the feathers together initially; or the ejecting musculature isn't firing the torpedo out with enough force to propel away clear of the feathers or the feathers aren't separating in the normal action before expulsion. It's going to be up to you to figure out which is happening but that still doesn't get down to a "why".

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Pidgey said:


> I kind of expect that sort of thing out of folks that find sick rescues but not from a bird that lives a cleaner lifestyle than I do.
> 
> Pidgey



LOL! Well, as I said, I keep things clean but I'm not a fanatic about it Thanks for explaining some of the reasons why poops get stuck. I wish I could figure this out and I'm trying my best.

Thanks Pidgey,


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

Perhaps may want consider trying some Pepto Bismol. It will sooth her digestive track, detoxify and firm up her droppings. Two - three drops, 2-3 times a day. Try Googling Pepto Bismol and birds for more information.

Ron


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Ron, 

Yes, I've heard of this before, in fact it mentions using pepto bismol in one of my dove books. I may give it a try, thanks for reminding me 

I just hope she'll keep that down, she's quite "barfie" as you know. She's been doing well on the pellets though and has been pretty good at keeping those down. I think she's only threw up a couple of times and just a few pellets.


----------



## Pidgey

A pigeon with acid reflux? That doesn't sound good.

You know, in people, the gall bladder sometimes causes problems like that until they remove them.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

LOL...you're funny Pidgey

Well folks, just wanted to give another update as of Wednesday. 

I went back to my vets, this time I got my original vet that I'm used to dealing with and the one whom I've been going to the longest and who knows my birds best. I didn't bring Henny in for another examination, rather this was strictly a discussion period and time for another fecal test, ONLY. 

I brought to her attention that my concerns were that this was a blockage caused by excess grit intake. I ran through all of Henny's symptoms and told her everything that has been going on over the last 6 weeks. After she heard me out, she gave her opinion and that was that she didn't feel that a blockage from grit or otherwise was the problem. Understand though, that the vets here are all about diagnosing the problem from tests, they will rarely hypothesize about what their "gut" tells them. It really is like pulling teeth with any of them!

The second fecal tests were done and this time, more megabacteria/AGY were found. The first time it was a nominal amount, this time she said it was "+ 1", meaning that it was getting worse incrementally and getting to be an "overgrowth" situation, as I understood it.

We talked in depth about Megabacteria/AGY and she said that it will eventually kill Henny if left untreated. I asked her about x-rays and blood work and she felt that if she HAD to choose, she'd go with the x-rays then the blood work. She feels that there could be many other things going on. However, she did agree that all of Henny's symptoms; the regurgitation, weakness/tiredness, heavy breathing, and gastro intestinal problems "fit" with AGY and therefore could very well be the principle problem.

SO, she presrcibed an antifungal medication which I don't have yet (they didn't have enough and had to order more) and don't remember the name of, but it's not intraconidazole. It's a very expensive medication and it will be a 30 day course of the drug...$300.00 

I just hope that this is going to fix her up, FINALLY. If not, then maybe again in the near future I will take Henny back for the x-rays that the vet seemed to think will show a lot more.

Thanks for listening.


----------



## Pidgey

Antifungals:

Amphotericin B
Flucytosine
Ketoconazole
Itraconazole
Fluconazole
Enilconazole

Here's the best clinical report that I've been able to find on the actual disease and it states that they still haven't identified the pathogenicity of the little buggers:

http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/CLERK/Son/index.htm

And that article is the first that I've seen that says that the use of Nystatin has shown some positive results.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Pidgey said:


> Antifungals:
> 
> * Amphotericin B*
> 
> 
> Here's the best clinical report that I've been able to find on the actual disease and it states that they still haven't identified the pathogenicity of the little buggers:
> 
> http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/CLERK/Son/index.htm
> 
> And that article is the first that I've seen that says that the use of Nystatin has shown some positive results.
> 
> Pidgey



This was the drug, Pidgey..highligted, bolded and underlined...they just called me that it's ready for pick up.


----------



## Pidgey

Very powerful medication, Brad. Gotta' watch that one pretty carefully.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

However, it isn't absorbed well when used P.O. (orally) so if they're going to use it that way to get to the Macrorhabdus ornithogaster (Megabacteria; AGY), then I suppose it's a lot safer than the book would suggest. It's when it's used as a systemic antifungal that it gets dangerous because it's highly nephrotoxic, but that usually means that it's being given intravenously.

You're probably pretty safe (Henny, that is).

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Pidgey, 

I've been instructed to give it twice a day, it's a cream/flesh coloured and THICK med. I'm really not looking forward to treating Henny for so long But, if it works, that's all that I care about. 

I'm going to pick up the meds tomorrow because the office closes at 4pm and it's now 3:54. 

She told me that this drug had the best chances to help Henny and the only one proven to show results with the AGY. 

I'm hopeful this time, I just hope that my other birds don't contract this "unique" and misunderstood disease. It's so gosh, darn expensive to treat


----------



## TAWhatley

Wow, Brad! You and Henny are really continuing to go through the wringer, aren't you? I do so hope the new med is the long sought answer, and am sorry that it is so expensive.

Terry


----------



## TerriB

Brad, thanks for the update on Henny. Sure hope this new anti-fungal resolves the problem. You certainly have had to do a lot of research to try and pin down her problem! Hope your other birds continue to do well!


----------



## feralpigeon

Brad, I'm glad that your usual vet seems to uphold the more minimal diagnosis of her recent replacement. The AmphotericinB is the link that I gave you earlier I believe from Jedd's. Although, I am so much more comfortable knowing the your
vet stands behind the diagnosis and treatment. I hope this is the answer that you are looking for.

fp


----------



## mr squeaks

I sure hope Henny will be OK THIS TIME. Yikes! That IS expensive medicine. It darn well better be worth it! Will be, of course, when it works...

All the BEST to you and Henny! I'll be watching for updates...


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you, Terry, Terri, FP and Shi...will keep you updated on how this med works. The vet feels it should do the job if the megabacteria/AGY is indeed the main problem.

I forgot to mention to you folks, we had a discussion about probiotics as well. I asked her if she thought human probiotics were beneficial and/or useful in keeping pigeons healthy. She said that she doesn't feel that they will hurt, might help but overall they are now thinking that they may not do as much once thought. Apparently she had just attended a seminar only a week ago and they discussed the use of probiotics. Not sure what I think about this yet or whether this information is accurate.


----------



## george simon

*Get Well Henry*

BRAD, Sorry to see HENRY having so much trouble HOPE for the best. I am not a big fan of medication so that's why I did not offer any advice ,only use the stuff as a last resourse and when I know what is worng. But I am pulling for HENRY, KEEP THE FAITH. GEORGE SIMON


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

As the others have said, I am crossing my fingers for you that this will get Henny back to her old self.

Ron


----------



## mr squeaks

george simon said:


> BRAD, Sorry to see HENRY having so much trouble HOPE for the best. I am not a big fan of medication so that's why I did not offer any advice ,only use the stuff as a last resourse and when I know what is worng. But I am pulling for HENRY, KEEP THE FAITH. GEORGE SIMON


Hi George...I KNOW Brad really appreciates your message, but his runt is a hen named HEN*N*Y...just an fyi...


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks George and Ron Thanks Shi for the little correction 

I'm going to have to start the medication on Sunday morning. It's to be given every 12 hours so the best times for me will be 9am and 9pm. I really hope she won't throw this stuff up. I have to give her nearly 1ml each dose...that's even more than the metronidazole!


----------



## Maggie-NC

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Thank you, Terry, Terri, FP and Shi...will keep you updated on how this med works. The vet feels it should do the job if the megabacteria/AGY is indeed the main problem.
> 
> I forgot to mention to you folks, we had a discussion about probiotics as well. I asked her if she thought human probiotics were beneficial and/or useful in keeping pigeons healthy. She said that she doesn't feel that they will hurt, might help but overall they are now thinking that they may not do as much once thought. Apparently she had just attended a seminar only a week ago and they discussed the use of probiotics. Not sure what I think about this yet or whether this information is accurate.


Brad, some time ago, maybe 4-5 years, my vet advised against using probiotics after we had our first outbreak of coccidiosis. She said she had read some literature that studies showed it was not as effective as they thought it to be. However, more recently I brought it up again and she said that she had heard nothing further and personally saw no problem with giving probiotics - that it certainly wouldn't hurt them, and possibly could help. 

One of the things we do when we have a pigeon that will gag, no matter whether its food or medicine going down, is to insert the syringe past the air hole, squirt it in, then hold the bird's beak together and very gently massage the throat to help the med go down. My husband has actually taken a pigeon for a walk around the yard, just to get its mind off gagging. If you can keep her from immediately throwing the med up it shouldn't take too long for it to start working.

Good luck.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Maggie, 

Thank you for the tip on hopefully getting Henny to keep the meds down...I will definitely try massaging her throat and keeping her beak closed. As for taking her for a walk at 9pm at night, might not be easy The vet mentioned that the metro is horrible tasting and likely why Eggbert had such a time with it. She said this drug isn't so bad. However, it's very thick which is why I'm thinking she may throw it up.

Yes, it was a little bit disconcerting to hear that my vet suggesting that the probiotics were likely not all that beneficial. She does strongly believe in the use of ACV though and says that this is definitely something that does work for the reasons it's used. Garlic was another thing she also endorses and recommends.


----------



## george simon

*Henny Not Henry*

BRAD, Please forgive me 75 year old eyes and ears do play tricks on guys like me. Hang in there we are all pulling for HENNY. GEORGE


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi George, 

It's not a big deal at all....it was just very nice of you to wish Henny well

Thank you very much


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Brad,

I just measured and there is approximately 15-16 drops in one of the 1cc dosing syringes I have (1cc = 1mL).

If you wrap and secure Henny in a towel, with really just her head poking out and place her in your lap, you can now put a drop or two into the side of her mouth, then gently massage her throat until she swallows, it will not take long to get the full amount into her. It may take a little longer this way, not more than a few minutes, but it will be less stressful on you both. This is how I dose my parrots and it is also working well on my little stump foot guy who I still have on Amoxicillin.

Ron


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Ron for the suggestion. I'm not sure this will work for Henny, giving the medicine drop by drop. Both her and Eggbert have a habit of spitting out medicine if it's not put down the throat. They taste it and then shake their heads spitting it out. They will even spit out capsule if I don't get them far enough down their throat at first. 

I have to say, I'm quite nervous about giving her so much liquid medicine, twice a day for 30 days. This isn't going to be easy on her. This medicine is very thick and I experimented with drawing it up in the syringe yesterday and it wasn't easy. As well the vet gave me a plastic crop needle type thing to put on the end of the syringe. It's supposed to be easier and be able to go down the throat better, bypassing the air hole and just making it easier to administer in general. However, it seems that the medicine is too thick to pass through it's very narrow hole. I don't have any other tubes etc either to use.

Here is are a few links I found about megabacteria/AGY though that I thought were quite informative but also a little worrying and disconcerting. I'm worried that this drug is too powerful and I've read some articles that it's pretty toxic. These links don't mention that however.

http://www.oldworldaviaries.com/text/miscellaneous/megabac.htm
http://www.vet.uga.edu/IVCVM/1998/gestier/gestier.htm


----------



## Whitefeather

I am so sorry about Henny's ongoing problems Brad.  
Hope this new course of medication will do the trick.  You both have been through enough stress.

Cindy


----------



## Pidgey

Well, Brad, I think I said that the medication doesn't absorb well through the gut and so oral administration doesn't carry the problems that treating for systemic fungal infections do through parenteral means. (Translation: the medication's basically going to stay and kill in the gut and leave the kidneys alone so it'll be operating more like Nystatin than what you're describing)

As to getting it down the bird, you've been adverse to crop-feeding all along. I know you're nervous about it and if that tube is too small, just use the instructions that I've already given for making one of those electrical heat-shrink tubes work. That will provide the largest bore and the most softness so that you can't hurt the bird. You will, however need to draw some air up in the syringe before you start loading the medication so that you'll have an air blast to clear the tube at the end of each dosing but that's pretty insignificant.

Pidgey


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

This is not directed at any one person, so please do not become offended. 


I just feel compelled to offer my two cents on these various 4 in 1, 5 in 1, 10 in 1......do I hear "20 in 1" mixtures. These products are the invention of "good" marketing, not good medical care. 

To me, this is an indication of how much antibotic "Abuse" is going on....let's see here....I don't know what it is....so I will throw the whole kitchen sink at it. This is exactly the reason why laws were written to require people to see a doctor instead of buying "Stuff" over the counter. 

In my humble opinion, not only is the above approach dangerous to pigeon keeping in the long run, it does not make economic sense either. This approach appeals to the lazy streak in us....I don't want to go to the time and trouble to diagnose the problem, so I will just give it 10 medications at the same time. I am sorry, to me this is insanity. This is exactly what you would do, if you wanted to create super bugs, which will have resistance to all the tools in our tool box. 

And a bottle claiming to be a "10 in 1" cure all with a whole list of "cures", without listing what has been mixed into this "Snake Oil" is exactly just that "Snake Oil". 

My prediction is this.....over time, the more a fancier uses this kind of product, and this kind of approach, the sicker the birds will get. I have been down both roads in the past, and when it comes to drugs, less is better.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm thinking of starting Henny on a product that I purchased from Siegels called ,10 in 1. Here is what they say about it on their website:
> 
> *Ten in One Capsules* -- The latest development in the treatment of a myriad of diseases that attack our pigeons. This product provides a safe and effective treatment against the following: Canker, Coccidiosis, E. coli, Salmonella, Chlamydia, Streptococcus bovis, Staphylococcus aureus, Mycoplasmosis, Ornithosis, and the symptoms of Adeno coli. *Directions for use: Use 1 capsule per bird down the throat the evening before basketing and the day of return. *
> 
> It doesn't say what the active ingredients are on the bottle nor the mgs. So, I have to ask this question again. How many capsules should I give Henny? I'm going by the thinking that these products are designed and formulated mostly to be given to homing pigeons. A homing pigeon is about half the weight of one of my runts. Therefore, wouldn't it be logical to give two capsules to my pigeon? Either way, it's not right because meds are supposed to be assigned in accordance to the direct weight of the bird. However, I don't want to underdose her in case it's not effective enough, but I'm afraid of a possibility of overdosing as well. Of course Siegels is not open today to take calls about their products.
> 
> I would like to start her on this tonight and see if there is any improvement, otherwise, I will have to take her to the vets soon. I purchased all these meds so I'd better try something! I have spartrix still and I bought turbosole, but I'm thinking that the 10 in 1 might have a better chance at catching something, even if it's just the canker that I suspect.
> 
> Any suggestions or thoughts on this?
> 
> Thank you as always,


 This is what my previous post was in reference to.....


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

I think there's always a concern with medications as to what other impact they may have on the system, so being worried about the toxicity is a real concern,
but when there is a diagnosis that's come in, then it is a reasonable course of action to treat regardless. It seems to be one of the drugs of choice for AGY that is being touted these days. There are also several links that advocate the use of Baytril or Amoxicillin after the Amphotericin B treatment to deal with other infections that may have set in while the bird had AGY as well.

http://wbo.bestofbreeds.net/article4.htm

http://www.finchniche.com/f-agy.mgi

The finchniche sees AGY as a secondary infection that becomes a problem due to a primary infection, coccidiosis to name one. Although the antibiotic treatment being recommended is to treat secondary infections to AGY that have arrisen due to the bird's weakened system from AGY.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you folks, very much

Cindy, yes, it's been a stressful month and a few weeks. I do hope that this medication is going to finally get Henny on the path to good health again soon and I'm hopeful that I will see results in a few days. I'm going to start her on the meds tomorrow morning for sure, once I've got a tube ready to adminster and I'm back on a regular schedule for the work week.

Pidgey, thank you for the information on how this medication will work (in the gut mostly) and also for the idea about the heat-shrink tubes. This is exactly where the meds need to work the most and the proventriculus. I am very uneasy about doing this (as you know) and it's really not my forte but I have to try. I may even be able to adapt an old USB cord with wires removed to fit onto the end of the syringe. I've got plenty of "tubes" I could utilize around here but if that fails, then I'll look at the stores.

Warren, you're almost certainly right about the 5 in 1, 10 in 1 etc. kinds of products. Helen too was also dubious of how well such a product would work and even though I was one of those who got suckered into buying one of these products, I never used it for my pigeons. In fact, I really dislike using medications at all for my pigeons or myself. It's become clear though that a medication will be needed to help Henny as she is not getting better with good husbandry, food, water, care etc. So far, I've spent approx $650 on Henny and Eggbert recently for tests and meds and I'm not done yet.

FP, thanks for your common sense approach and views on this. I guess I really don't have much of a choice here. It's either I give her the meds and it *might* make her sick, or I don't and she continues to get worse anyway. I've been doing a lot more research and reading about the AGY/megabacteria as well and problems with other secondary infections. I'm thinking that Henny is generally healthy and that the ACV and vitamins etc are helping to keep her going but obviously will not cure her. If it wasn't for the fact that she gets such good food, vitamins, probiotics, garlic ACV etc, she might have been dead a long time before this. Both fecal tests done on Henny didn't reveal anything of concern other than the AGY. So, so far so good that way.

Thanks folks, just expressing my worries, concerns and trepidation on this whole situation...I will update in a few days of the treatment and let you know how it's working.


----------



## Skyeking

Brad,

I'm so sorry that these issues have not been resolved.

Can I make the following suggestions?

I myself would treat as follows/with guidance of my rehabber.


*Stress*since this is a stress that can trigger an outbreak, I would do everything to correct the source of stress, whatever it may be, or maybe there is more then one source. It can be physical, or even emotional, environment, etc.

Also stress can be helped, by giving calcium and minerals, which helps relax the nerves and muscles. B complex is extremely important for dealing with stress and a source of energy. Brewers YEAST is a good source. 

*Fungus/yeast* Lots of garlic as it is an anti-fungul, at least a cap or two a day, since your Henny is much bigger then your average pigeon. A drop of Neem oil a day, as it is also an anti-fungul and immune system stimulant. Vita C is another immune system stimulant which is not required as pigeons manufacture it in the liver, however it works in close relationship with vitamin A, so a deficiency of A means production of vita C is diminshed

*GUT PH- *Continue with the ACV with recommended dose of 1 teasp to 6 liters of water, and of course loads of quality probiotics with more then a few beneficial organisms to lower digestive tract PH.

*STOMACH LINING-* to heal the stomach lining should there be any ulceration, Vitamin A in the beta carotene form, as in corn and leaf lettuces. Free-form amino acids which are needed to repair tissue and aid in protein assimilation. These are extremely important and can be found in a few pigeon multi-vitamins, as well as a good diet with a vaiety of legumes and grains.
Unsaturated fatty acids, protect stomach and digestive tract to keep them free from ulcerations. Aloe will help aid healing with ulcerations and aids in pain relief.

Digestive enzymes would also be a good recommendation as the intestinal tract is in need of help to digest and assimilate the food and nutrients needed.

Also, the Reishi would be another very beneficial product as it is a natural anti-fungul as well as antibiotic.

To overcome mega bacteria you have to have an arsenal of mega nutrition to handle the problem.


----------



## mr squeaks

*Just a comment...*

as if you haven't already gotten loads of excellent advice!

I cannot comment on meds although I do agree with Warren that "less is more." However, if one knows the cause (hopefully), then meds can help.

My comment has to do with giving meds. I can SOOOOOO relate, BRAD! I had to give Squeaks some meds via syringe. TALK ABOUT BEING PARANOID! I had read that going in from the "right" side helped. When I mentioned this to Dr. Burke, he suggested going UP toward the back of the throat and down. When I opened his beak, I COULD see two holes, with the "correct hole" being further back. So BOTH suggestions helped. I just had to RELAX, VISUALIZE and TAKE MY TIME. Of course, I had to burrito Squeaks. That helped A LOT! BTW, I'm not sure, but having a BIGGER pigeon than Squeaks could be a definite advantage!!

I emphasize with you ALL the way Brad, but I know you can DO it! RELAX, BREATHE and go for it...let us know!

I REALLY hope this helps...


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Treesa, Shi...

Treesa, thank you for taking the time to go through all these natural things in such detail. I will see what I can take from the advice and hopefully once Henny is better, I'll get working on a regiment with some of the things you've suggested. 

Thanks too, Shi for the encouragement and supportive words. I HATE giving liquid medicine to the birds. The only liquid I've ever had to give was ivomec and it was such a small amount twice a year so it was a breeze. Then I had that episode with Eggbert choking on the metronidazole which terrified me.

I was able to find a tube to put on the end of the syringe, and tubing the medicine was quite easy and quick. Just a couple of concerns. 1) the vet only gave me the EXACT amount of medicine to last me the 2 weeks. She was very stingy on giving any extra and I was instructed to scrape the syringe to get the last drops back into the vials even! 2) I'm having a problem getting all the medication down Henny's throat. Seems when I draw up the liquid into the syringe and stick the tube on the end, an air bubble is created. Therefore, when I plunge the syringe down, it seems like quite a bit is staying in the tube. I don't think I can draw the liquid up through the tube either because then the amount will be wrong.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks again...at least I got some meds into her today and she kept it down well, no vomiting and she didn't seem to get sick from it either, which is a huge relief!


----------



## Skyeking

I'm glad Henny didn't vomit and seems to be doing okay.

I can't imagine why the vet would be SO stingy, for heaven sakes, you paid for it didn't you? I'm sure that is not helping make the job, of getting it all down her, any easier.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Treesa, 

Yes, I suspect they are so stingy because the medication is SO expensive. It's like liquid gold. 6 teaspoons of the stuff cost nearly $200! Still, I wish I had have been given a little bit extra. I suppose that I'll just have to work with what I was given. After 12 days of treatment, I have to call them to order more, it's shelf life isn't long either.


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## Pidgey

I don't know if you locked onto the possibility that the Nystatin may do some good in this situation or not. What may happen is that you may not be able to eradicate the yeast. The Amphotericin B may bring it down to a manageable level. When the vet sees by way of fecal smears that Henny's doing better, you may consider getting the Medistatin (Nystatin being the active ingredient) powder and including it in her food from here on out or just for an extended period. They both actually perform the same basic function, the Amphotericin B is just better at it and may also be used systemically. But considering the cost, you certainly don't want to have to control the AGY in this manner long term if it's possible to keep it controlled the other way.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Brad, first off, boos to the vet. It just isn't fair not to give some leeway in the amount because sometimes, no matter how hard you try, a bird may spit some out or it dribbles. I have noticed there is always some medicine left in the tip of the syringe that doesn't come out after you've used it.

I have never had to use a med as thick as you describe but in feeding all our little devils now, I get air bubbles in the syringe. All I do is tamp the syringe on the counter, head down, and the med will settle showing a space at the exit part of the syringe. I just gently depress the syringe until the blank space fills up and the air will come out. I keep depressing until the exact is all the way to the tip of the syringe and then feed.

Clear as mud?


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Maggie and Pidgey, 

Thanks for the tips regarding the syringe Maggie but the problem lies in the tube itself. I attach a tube to the end of the syringe that is about 4 inches long. I load the medication into the syringe first, then attach the tube onto the syringe. What is happening is the medicine is getting "air locked" into the tube and it's not all coming out. I manage to get most of the medication down Henny but there is usually still about 2-3 drops that don't come out of the tube. This translates into a significant portion of the dose since the actual dose is .92ml. I might try drawing up 1 full ml into the syringe to compensate for this. I suppose it's not a huge deal and better than overdosing her on the Amphotericin B. 

There is no way my 2 week supply is going to last 2 weeks though The medicine isn't really thick, but it's chalky, sticky, dries quickly and just hard to work with in general. The vet had told me to scrape and get as much as possible back into the bottle. Well, this is virtually impossible. I've lost quite a bit of it in the tube & on the syringe (inside and outside). It's terrible stuff to work with!

Pidgey, I haven't researched the possibility of using nystatin after this or for a longer term treatment plan. I am really hoping that the Amphotericin B will do the trick and actually cure Henny. After the 30 day treatment is done, I will have another fecal done and see what the results are at that time. 
When I go to see my vet again in about 10 days to pick up the next two weeks worth of amphotericin B, I will suggest the nystatin to her and see what she says.

I was also thinking of ordering the amphotericin B from Jedds that FP had found. This is a water soluable form of the drug and is intended to be more of a flock treatment. It's still expensive, so the nystatin would be a better option. As well, I'm still concerned that Eggbert might catch the AGY and it might be worth treating him as well. So far, (*KNOCK ON WOOD*) he's showing no symptoms of the AGY.

Considering that today will only be day 3 of treatment, I have seen a change in Henny's droppings. The consistancy is different and they don't seem to have as strong of a smell to them. I'm certain the drug is working!


Thanks again folks,


----------



## Whitefeather

*"Considering that today will only be day 3 of treatment, I have seen a change in Henny's droppings. The consistancy is different and they don't seem to have as strong of a smell to them. I'm certain the drug is working!"*

I'm so glad you are seeing *some* improvement Brad.  
Let's hope things continue in this direction.

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you Cindy Yes, I have been watching Henny very carefully to see any changes however minute that I can detect. Her behaviour and attitude hasn't changed much if any, but the droppings have a wee bit and this is a good sign. I read somewhere that you will see changes in behaviour from 3-5 days after treatment starts. 

The medication is powerful though, and I think some of the side effects are nausia, tiredness and fever. It seems to take a bit for the animal to become "used" to the effects of the drug. Therefore, it could be awhile still before she starts to "perk" up a bit more. I will go by her droppings for now though since that is what I'm seeing/smelling an improvement in.


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## TerriB

Thanks for the update, Brad. Good to hear that you are seeing some difference with the new ($$$$$) meds. Sure hope this resolves her problem and she continues to improve!


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Well, I think I unfortunately have to report that the amphotericin B doesn't seem to be working Henny's been on the med now for 6 days solid of 2 x's per day and there doesn't appear to be anymore improvement. In fact, I'm not even sure there was improvement period. There is absolutely nothing in her behaviour or demeanor that has improved. I thought the poops didn't smell as bad but perhaps it was overzealousness on my part and because I really wanted to believe that it would work. And in one way, she's actually worse...she's been grounded for the past 3 days and has been unable or unwilling to fly up to her perch to roost at night. This is the first time since she's been sick that she hasn't flown up to her roost for the night.

My vet is closed today but I need some advice here. Should I continue with the medication considering it doesn't seem to be working or should I stop it? Perhaps it's making her even sicker over the long run because she's been sick for so long...I really don't know.


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

It could be that she isn't feeding the way she normally would due to nausea from the medication. Are you supplementing her self feeding with 'force feeds',
hate to use that loaded term, but after all, that's what even a 'friendly' term such as 'seed pops' is all about.

Pepto Bismal may help w/nausea and perhaps you could add this to the regimine she is currently on. I definitely wouldn't stop using the medication as it could help to create a resistant AGY by not completing the course. I would consider
helping w/side effects the drug may have for Henny by treating her for nausea, and feeding her with some easily digestable meals to make sure that she is getting the nutrition that she needs.

fp


----------



## Whitefeather

I am so sorry Henny doesn't seem to be doing better with the new medication Brad.  
You both certainly deserve a break from all this. 

Cindy


----------



## feralpigeon

Brad, 

Is it possible to call your vet and discuss your observations w/her?

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Cindy, I sure do wish this was all behind me. It's be going on for too long now and all of this must be terrible on Henny. I'm constantly worried myself, that one of these days when I get home from work, I'll find her dead

FP, Henny is eating well on her own, there is no need to force feed or do seed pops with her. I think I know why she might be grounded now though.

I called my vet this morning and left a message with the receptionist about what was going on with Henny and how the meds didn't seem to be working. The vet called me back tonight at 8:30pm. She said to give it another week with the meds and to call her back then. She feels as long as Henny is continuing to eat and hasn't lost weight, she should be fine. She confirmed again that the meds are a strong one and that this could just be a side effect of the drug. 

I told the vet that I had been weighing Henny, but I really hadn't. I go by how she feels in my hands and I knew she wasn't losing weight and still felt good. I'm so used to handling my birds that I know when they lose weight. However tonight after I gave Henny the meds, I did weigh her....she weighed 1035 grams!!!! This is the most she's ever weighed since I've had her. Over the years, she normally hovered around 950 grams and when I took her into the vet the first time and at the start of this, she weighed 930 grams so she had lost weight. However, she now weighs over 100 grams more than that! It must be the pellets, they are supposed to allow birds to gain weight better and obviously she has. 

I think this is the reason why she is all of a sudden grounded. She is still weak & having breathing difficulties so the added weight must be keeping her grounded. 

I'll keep her on the meds for another week as the vet instructed and then take it from there. I just hope that this week I will start to see improvement because I don't know where to go from here, hopefully the vet will have a plan in mind!


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## feralpigeon

OMG, Brad, she's a big gal. So, how are her poops these days, are they still improving? I know the vet said wait a week and then call back,
but if there's something you see that you don't like beyond what you are already noticing in the next week, I hope you call anyway. Does the vet still want you to do the 30 day treatment plan and will there be an interim fecal test run?

What can I say Brad? I just hope that you and Henny get the kind of results from this that you are so hoping for.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

feralpigeon said:


> how are her poops these days, are they still improving? Does the vet still want you to do the 30 day treatment plan and will there be an interim fecal test run?
> 
> fp


Hi FP, 

The poops don't really seem to be improving. They still have a rotten egg like odour and still green. 

The vet said to give the medication for two weeks then we will reassess things if there is no improvement. I called her again this morning and am still waiting to hear back. I had a few other questions regarding the safety margin of this med and about Henny's increased weight. 

She is quite a heavy girl, and I'm happy at least that she has gained a considerable amount of weight. I always thought my birds were on the thin side and could use an extra 100-200 grams. I should weigh Eggbert and see if he's gained as well.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Brad, if I could throw a little humor in this thread with all of us worried about Henny.

When I was working on the Medication thread I hope to finish one of these days, I had only done the computations up to a pigeon of 600 grams. However, I thought about your 4 and decided I needed to go to at least 1000 grams so I've computed up to that weight.

Now, You say Miss Henny is 1035. Looks like I'll need to go a bit higher.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Lady Tarheel said:


> Now, You say Miss Henny is 1035. Looks like I'll need to go a bit higher.


LOL Maggie You may have to go even higher yet! Runts are usually closer to 2.5 - 3lbs. That would put Henny at 1134-1360 grams! I'm sure she won't get that heavy though, she's just not as big as some of them are. She would be perfect at about 1100 grams


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## Pidgey

Do me a favor, Brad--monitor her abdomen for tightness from time to time.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Pidgey said:


> Do me a favor, Brad--monitor her abdomen for tightness from time to time.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey, 

What exactly to you mean by this? What kind of tightness and do you mean and should I be feeling between her legs for this?

Just got off the phone with the vet...she said that the drug has a limited safety margin but there is some leeway. Right now I'm giving Henny .92ml of the amphotericin B but she said that I could go up to 1ml, and considering Henny's weight gain. She also said I could probably go as high as 1.5 ml safely but it might also be dangerous on her liver.

She feels that if by the end of the 2 weeks of treating with this medication and there is still no improvement, then the AGY could be a secondary infection to something else. If this is the case, she feels that 2 weeks of the amphotericin B would be sufficient to clear up the AGY but then we have to find the main problem still. 

She recommended blood tests next, followed by a fecal culture (different from a fecal gram stain) and then x-rays. The blood work up will cost $140 and then the fecal culture will be another $100 approx she said. X-rays are $165 but I'm not really sure I'd consider those. If I do see improvement in the next week with the amphotericin B, then I still need to buy the second 2 week supply which is $180. This isn't including any other fecal gram stains at $50 a pop either. This is so frustrating and a nightmare....what on earth will I do if one of my other birds gets sick next somehow from Henny?


----------



## Maggie-NC

Brad, I'm not really sure what to say here but, if it were me, I would have an x-ray done and blood work. I am so sorry about all the expense. I know it is a nightmare for you with the anxiety and lets face it, not many of us can afford the amount you're investing in trying to find out what is wrong with Henny. You are to be commended for everything you're doing.

I can't speak for Pidgey but I have to say that red flags went up for me when you mentioned the weight gain, coupled with the fact that she now can't fly. It seems to me that with all Henny has been through there would have been a weight loss rather than gain. Of course, who knows what bearing the medication could have and I know the pellets are richer than seed.

What I would feel for is a swelling in the area between her legs. Sometimes a tumor can cause fluid retention and swelling occurs. If it is just a fluid accumulation maybe from the meds the vet can drain that off with a needle and syringe to make Henny more comfortable. 

Of course, this is just speculation on my part, trying to think of anything that may be going on.


----------



## Pidgey

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> What exactly to you mean by this? What kind of tightness and do you mean and should I be feeling between her legs for this?


What I mean is that you cradle the bird in your hands or while she's standing and you palpate the area from the legs back. If there is internal swelling, it may show up as a hardness, especially in the soft areas near the vent. Use your other hen as a guide. This isn't the time to be extra gentle--you're looking for danger signs. Hopefully, they're not there, but it's just one of the possibilities that we're looking for.

At the same time, try your best to monitor the keel as it compares to the breast muscles. If they start disappearing (keel becomes more prominent) at the same time the bird's gaining weight, then you've got a real problem.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you Maggie and Pidgey...

I will likely be going ahead with the blood tests next, Maggie. The next step would be the fecal culture and I'll probably do that too if nothing comes from the blood work. The two weeks of the amphotercin B will be finished on Sunday and so far, there is still really no improvement in the droppings or with Henny in general.

Thanks Pidgey for the clarification on what to look for in the abdomen, I checked her this morning and I didn't feel anything unusual going on there. Her keel isn't really sharp but it's detectable...always has been. Her breast feels good though. This is why I always felt she could use to gain some weight and I'm glad she has now.

Thanks,


----------



## Pidgey

Well, that's good, at least. I picked up a pigeon this evening to see if I could figure out how to describe the feeling procedure better. The breastbone (keel) comes to a point back near the vent. There is a hollow on either side that you can press into, behind the legs. It's when those soft spots start really getting hard that you begin to know that there's something occuring in the inside of the bird like the growth of a tumor or the buildup of calcareous material from a ruptured oviduct or the like.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, I know this sounds dumb but I didn't know the keel went almost to the vent. It's just not something I've ever looked at closely.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I didn't mean it quite that way--I was really trying to point out the hollows on either side of the body between the keel and the pelvis above. Seems like the end of the keel is back about an inch or so, isn't it (go feel a bird)?

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hello folks, 

Well, Henny is nearly done the 2 weeks of the amphotericin B...in fact, it won't even last that long. I think I have enough to give her about 1 more dose. The two weeks would have been finished on Sunday. I even had to use it sparingly, I only gave her one dose today and I will give her the last single dose tomorrow.

Called my vet to make an appointment and the earliest I can get in is Thursday May 18th and that is with the second vet again. It seems I cannot ever get the same vet and stick with her because one or the other is busy and I have to take whoever is available. I think I do prefer my original vet afterall as apposed to the one I got when this whole thing started.

I'm concerned now because the vet had prescribed the amphotericin B for 1 month and even though we're not seeing any results with this drug, I hope it's ok to stop treatment after 2 weeks. There really has been no change whatsoever in Henny other than I think she's getting "used" to being sick and is actually adapting to being ill. Poops still stink, she sleeps most of the time and her breathing is still very laboured after the slightest activity.

I think the best option would be to have the blood work and the fecal culture done at the same time on Thursday. Hopefully at this time, the fecal will show that the AGY has been eliminated and either test will show something else going on.

Don't really know what else to do or how to proceed. It's very difficult to even communicate properly with the vet(s) because it's always a game of phone tag. Then when I get off the phone with either of them, I think of 5 more questions I forgot to ask. Wanted to ask these questions today, called but neither vet is available to return my call


----------



## mr squeaks

HOW FRUSTRATING, Brad! I'm so sorry!  

I just hope that any further tests will be more definitive! 

I don't know what else to say except hang in there! 

AND, give Henny EXTRA WARM HEALING HUGS...IF she will let you!

Also sounds like YOU could use some too...consider the HUGS sent!!


----------



## TAWhatley

Brad, I'm so sorry you and Henny are still going through such difficult times. I wish I had some useful advice to offer, but I have no clue either what may be the problem with Henny.

Terry


----------



## feralpigeon

Brad, this is truly a frustrating situation, your patience with the situation is immense and I hope that it pays off for you. The vet situation is just deplorable, and I can't believe that they prescribed a month of the medication
but are unavailable to re-evaluate for the next two weeks. Even if you are dissappointed w/the results, why are they not available at least to discuss this w/you? The only thing I can think of is the suggestion made by Jazaroo regarding what I believe was a nearby clinic that he knew of. This is just so frustrating even to read about, let alone live through. Hang in there, Brad.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks for the well wishes for Henny folks. I just hope that by the time I get into the office for her next tests on Thursday, that the AGY haven't come back or started to multiply again. It IS very frustrating dealing with my vets, it really compounds the frustration I'm already feeling. 

FP, that clinic that Ron mentioned is too far away, it's about an hour and 1/2 drive each way. Not to mention that Ron said there is a waiting list to get in and then I'd have to start from scratch with tests and costs. I just don't see how that idea is feasible because I can't keep making trips out there either. It would take me the better part of half a day each visit, depending on traffic and the length of the visits.


----------



## TerriB

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ...I'd have to start from scratch with tests and costs...


Don't know if things are different where you are, but your current vet should fax your test records if the second vet requests it. I had that happen recently when I took Walter to a new vet for his ears (Walter's, not the vet's). Given the lack of progress, I think they would understand your interest in seeking a second opinion, if you decide to go that route. You certainly have been through the wringer trying to resolve this issue! Sorry for what you and Henny are having to experience!


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Terri & all, 

Terri, yes...I'm sure I could have my current vet fax the results and information to the vet teaching hospital but I just can't see how feasible it would be because of the distance and waiting times. I'm having a hard enough time getting appointments now with my own vet. 

I've got an appointment on Thurs of this week for blood tests and a fecal culture. Does anyone know the difference between a fecal float and a fecal culture?

My vet called tonight and left me a message on my phone...my original vet. Last time we spoke, she suggested the blood tests and fecal culture if we didn't see improvement after 2 weeks of the amphotericin b. Tonight, she seemed frustrated because there was no improvement and said she recommends doing the next 2 week of the ampho I guess she doesn't realize that I have an appointment with her colleague. They mustn't even be communicating about the case. Also, last time she mentioned that there could be another problem going on and that the AGY was secondary and why we weren't seeing an improvement in Henny with the ampho b. How can this even make sense... stopping the treatment for several days and then starting it again?

I gave Henny some seeds today for a treat and break from the pellets...not really too many, and shortly after she threw up

Well, that's the latest in this continuing saga and mystery. This is so not fun


----------



## Pidgey

A fecal float is a test where you mix the poop with a solution of water and something else that makes it heavier. When that happens, certain parasites float to the top and then they're easy to see on a slide with a microscope. A fecal culture is when you put the stuff in a Petrie dish and try to grow different things with different media to see if any really bad germs will come to the forefront and make themselves known. At that point, you can then try different antibiotics to see which does the best job of killing the bad guys.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you Pidgey for the explanation on each....makes perfect sense Now, what are your thoughts on stopping the ampho b and then starting another 2 week treatment several days later like the vet wants to do? Doesn't seem very prudent or wise to me


----------



## Pidgey

Well, a fungal infection is not the same as a bacterial infection and not enough is known about the Macrorhabdus ornithogaster (previously "Megabacteria"). I'm certainly not the one to answer that question for you but I wouldn't be afraid of re-treating. It's coming down to money though and I know how that can be. From some of the photos in that one webpage, it looks likely that the stuff may actually intrude into the local tissues. As such, you'd be a little afraid that treatment would need to be more systemic as in parenteral administration. I'm sure that the cost of Amphotericin B probably really goes up if it's done that way, though.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Ok, thanks Pidgey for your perspective. Yes, the price is a concern as well, especially if I'm going ahead with the blood tests and fecal culture next. I suppose I'm going to have to wait a few days for the results of those. Will they be able to detect the AGY in the fecal culture, or do I have to have another fecal float done? The reason I ask is because when I get those tests done on Thurs, then perhaps at that time they can tell me what the levels are or even if the AGY has be eliminated with the 2 weeks I treated her.


----------



## feralpigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Ok, thanks Pidgey for your perspective. Yes, the price is a concern as well, especially if I'm going ahead with the blood tests and fecal culture next. I suppose I'm going to have to wait a few days for the results of those. Will they be able to detect the AGY in the fecal culture, or do I have to have another fecal float done? The reason I ask is because when I get those tests done on Thurs, then perhaps at that time they can tell me what the levels are or even if the AGY has be eliminated with the 2 weeks I treated her.



Hi Brad,

From what I've read, birds do not consistently shed the organism in their feces, so when trying to run fecals to identify their presence, it it recommended that samples be collected over a five day period. A fecal gram stain or a culture of the proventriculus itself seems to be what is being recommended. Also, there is another form of the Amphotericin B that is far less expensive according to one breeder. It's recommended that all birds housed together be treated, and due to the number of birds he had, it was going to cost him $700.00 to treat his flock.
He asked his pharmacist to do a search, & the pharmacist turned up w/an oral suspension that was only going to cost him $30.00. This sounds unbelievable, but that is what that author wrote. 

Also, it may very well be something secondary, birds in this category seem to fair better than those with a primary diagnosis and seem to experience more of a chronic malaise.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

There might be one way of determining whether the Macrorhabdus ornithogaster is indeed causing a serious problem--endoscopy. I'm currently researching this avenue. I'm pretty sure that it's a somewhat straight shot (or can be with the neck straightened) down to the proventriculus and (especially considering the size of Henny) that even a straight endoscope (like a cystoscope) could be inserted under a brief general and the proventriculus directly examined as well as a biopsy or smear taken. This would be minimally invasive. I've seen pictures of an affected proventriculus in necropsy (somewhere) and it's not so difficult to tell. I also read where a smear of the proventricular wall may be taken and observed microscopically. If it's Megabacteriosis, they're REALLY prevalent. 

I suggest this because I recently acquired a cystoscope to test as a means of checking for crop canker. It's basically a long instrument that's basically a periscope. They come in different configurations and most with their own lightsource. It'd be perfect for this operation although I'm sure that the bird would prefer to be under a general. The thought came to me because I had an EsophagoGastroDuodenoscopy yesterday and it makes perfect sense. This is a possibility that you can discuss with your vet. All we need to do is find some pictures to go by.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi FP and Pidgey, 

There doesn't seem to be a problem detecting the presense of the AGY in Henny's stools. In both and the only two fecal floats that were done, the AGY showed up no problem. FP, if you can find out more about this lower cost amphotericin, that would be great. Pidgey, I will inquire with the vet tomorrow and see what she says about an endoscopy. I'm still hoping that the AGY has been cleared up but my "hopes" are often dashed 

I'll let you guys know what I find out tomorrow and what she has to say next.

Thanks again,


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Dear members, 

I'm incredibly saddened, heart broken and basically numb right now...Henny died today She died at the vet's office at 11:15am this morning in my hands, while I did my best to comfort her while she passed. It was pretty quick from when she went into distress.

Arrived at the vet's office this morning at 9:30am with Henny. Henny was fine, still her usual sick self but she was alive, and as normal as she usually is/was. The vet and I talked for about 40 minutes about her and what was going on, what we were going to try etc. Blood tests and more fecal tests were to be done. First were the blood tests though...they took Henny into another room while I waited in the examination room. They had trouble stopping the bleeding and the vet came into the exam room and told me everything was ok but the assistant was still keeping pressure on the flow to stop it. They managed to stop her bleeding and brought her back to the exam room and she was gasping for breath. Not her usual winded self but GASPING...like when they are about to die.

The vet said she was like this the whole time while drawing the blood and she left her in the room with me to see if she'd calm down, I knew she wouldn't, I've seen the death throes before. The assistant came in and looked pretty worried, told me that they were going to give her oxygen, which they did. They said it helped, but I don't believe them. They brought her back to me in the exam room after about 25 minutes on oxygen and she was no better, in fact she was worse. Lying on her side, beak opening and closing with very little breath or sound coming out. They left me again with her alone in the room to see if she would calm down and snap out of it.....she never did. She started to cough, her head tilted up and over her back then down curled underneath her breast. There was that one last burst of energy and her body went limp.

I'm just devastated, I can't believe she died I think the stress was too much for her and she was just too weak to handle it. I think she drowned somehow in her own fluids in her lungs or something. She started to secrete mucuous out of her nostrils near the end too. I broke down in tears when the vet came back to see if she had improved but my Henny was already dead.

I'm having a necropsy done, they're sending her to the teaching hospital in Guelph (ironic and a cruel twist) but she will have the full tests run to see if they can find out what happened.

Some of the fecal tests came back as well after Henny died, the vet instructed them to stop but they had already started and there were rod shaped bacteria found in her stools this time. The report didn't specify which kind but there were lots of them apparently. 

I'm going to miss my lovely white Henny...I gave her the best life I could and she was very much loved. Eggbert is visibly upset and looking for his mate as well, little does he know she's never coming back.


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## Whitefeather

Oh Brad, I am so, so sorry.  
At this point, I don't know what to say, except you are in my thoughts.

"God Bless you, our sweet Henny."

Cindy (tearing up)


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## Maggie-NC

Brad, I just weep in sorrow for you and your loss. Henny was loved by all of us. I have been so worried about her and truly, I didn't know how she held on this long. We always say this but there is some truth in the comfort that she is no longer suffering. That doesn't make it any easier. Her death will never be forgotten by you but the pain will ease as time goes by. You did way and beyond what you could to help her and would have continued. I am so glad you are getting a necropsy. The hurtful thing about a necropsy is that you can't get her back for a burial but what you find out about her could help your own birds as well as all of ours. So, thank you for the sacrifice. We went through this with our little Feisty and though he's not buried with the other beloveds I still think of him being there.

I am so glad you were with her, for her. Just know that I'm thinking of you and sending a big hug to you along with my prayers.

Give Eggbert as much attention as you can. It will be really hard on him.

God bless you, Brad.


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## mr squeaks

Oh, Brad, I'm so terribly sorry! Tears are dripping all over my keyboard and I'd never be able to say how sorry I am if I didn't touch type...

Just no words...feelings, emotions...hugs...warm healing light...for you and Eggbert!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Brad,

I am sorry that I don't have any real comforting words to offer. You did all that could be done, and put your whole heart and soul into it. You set an example of care, that went beyond what any pigeon would ever recieve. Henny was luckey to have you as an owner. 

Perhaps those memorys of better days, will help to sustain you in this time of grief. I am so sorry.


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## jazaroo

Brad,

OMG, I can't believe this. There really are no words to send your way to tell you how truly sorry I am for your loss.

You and Henny will be in my prayers tonight.

Ron


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## Pidgey

I'm sorry, Brad. Whatever it was, it was beyond us to know. In some way, I feel I've failed you and Henny. Even while I know I shouldn't, it still feels that way. And in my heart, I know you feel the same way towards her for yourself. It's so much harder when they're family because you can't help but be tormented by the feeling that there was something else that you could have, should have done. Whatever personal torture you're going through, Brad, be sure that you're not alone--we're walking through the same dark valley with you.

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds

OMG.........been gone all day and just found your post and what happened. I am so very sorry...............we all know you did WAY more than most people would and that's all you can do. There are no words.........just very sorry..........


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## TAWhatley

Ohhhh, Brad. My heart is breaking for you and your beautiful Henny. I know you are beyond devasted with her loss. Bless you for your most dedicated efforts to find out what was wrong. Words are inadequate .. you and Henny are in my thoughts and prayers. 

Terry


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## SueC

I'm very sorry about Henny, Brad

Please take care.

Suzanna


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## Lin Hansen

Oh Brad, I'm so, so sorry to hear about poor sweet Henny.

I know it must have been absolutely heartbreaking for you, but I'm glad Henny was able to be with you--someone who loved her so very much--when she passed.

I just don't know what to say, but I know you know how I feel.

Your friend,
Linda


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## TerriB

Oh Brad, this is such a sad ending to your efforts to help Henny. I am so sorry for you loss, and for poor Eggbert's loss of his mate. You certainly did everything you possibly could to find a cure for her illness. Hopefully, some information will come out of the necropsy that will be helpful.

You took such excellent care of Henny and gave her a good life, the best food, and superb accommodations. Thank you for sharing your observations about her over the time you had her. I will remember her fondly.


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## feralpigeon

Brad, I'm so very, very sorry to hear of Henny's passing. Reading your post, I was just flat out in shock. Words will never be enough, but your efforts to help her were exemplary, and I know that she appreciated all of your loving concern to help her back to good health. It was truly a blessing that you were able to comfort her in her last moments, a needed gift and blessing. You are in my thoughts and prayers, along with Henny and Eggbert.

fp


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## Skyeking

Brad,

The words won't come, and I sit here in tears reading your last post.  

I am just overcome by your news, and am deeply sorry for the loss of Henny. You have been thru quite an ordeal.

Please remember that you did all you could for her and she is now in spirit, and looking down on you with peace and happiness. Yes, I know you have heard this all before, but I feel it is true. He created them for our benefit and I'm sure he created a special place for them where there is peace and comfort, and contentment, when they pass. Who knows, we may even see them again someday. 

My thoughts and prayers go out to you today, and am sending you a GIANT HUG!


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you folks for the beautiful sentiments and condolences...I really needed them. Only fellow pigeon people can understand my sorrow and this tragic event has been very hard on me. I haven't been able to think about much else lately. I thought I was prepared for the worst with Henny and since she's been sick for so long. However, this was completely unexpected and to have her die at the vet's, in my hands, has really haunted me I can't get the image of her gasping for air out of my head, and the look in her eyes as she passed. I know it's nice to think that I comforted her in her last moments, I hope I did...but I don't really believe I was a comfort to her. This bothers me as well, that she died in strange surroundings, apart from Eggbert and away from her familiar territory. Her last memories would have been fright, pain from the blood withdrawel, being handled by strangers and restrained. This is the second pigeon of mine to die in my hands and I just hate it. I'd rather they pass on their own and while I'm not there. This might seem like the cowards way but I will never get used to or feel comfortable watching death take hold. I just wanted to be swallowed up by the earth until it was over.

Pidgey, you absolutely did not fail me or Henny, but you're right, I feel I made mistakes and let Henny down. I know I did all I could and worked with the vets as best as they allowed. I feel, Henny would be alive today if I hadn't taken her to the vets for the blood tests. She was dealing with her illness for months and it wasn't a coincidence that she died that day. It was something to do with the visit/blood tests that killed her. It was likely the stress of it all and perhaps she even had a heart attack since her breathing was already so compromised to begin with. I blame the vets to a degree for not working with me like I needed them to and for not thinking that perhaps Henny should have been sedated before they took her blood. She knew Henny wasn't breathing well and that stress is a huge factor, she should have suggested this. I didn't even think of it myself until after but in retrospect and now that it's too late, but I should have thought of this. Whatever the case is, please don't blame yourself Pidgey....I certainly don't.

Maggie, I HAD to have the necropsy done since we never got to the bottom of Henny's health issues. I couldn't not have these last tests run. It's extremely important to find out all I can from the autopsy and for the benefit of other pigeons, especially my own. I wanted so much to take Henny home and give her a proper burial and one last goodbye. She was such a beautiful girl and one in a million. I miss her so much, Eggbert is still calling for her all day long too. He must think she'll be back and I believe he doesn't understand, since he never saw her die or the body. 

I'm still waiting to get the results from the necropsy, they said they should have them by mid week and will fax to my vets'office. I hope the results show something that was missed and will shed some light on what happened.

Again, thank you all again for the very comforting words, they have helped me but... It's gonna take some time for me to get over some of the feelings I have, and to accept the fact she's really gone. These 4 birds, well now 3 birds, are my dear, dear pets...irreplaceable, loved as if they were my kids.


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## Skyeking

Hi Brad,

I'm so glad to see you back again, we have missed you and your wonderful input and technical advice!  

I really understand how you feel about holding Henny when she passed. I feel I am the worst person on the earth to hold my bird during times like that, because when my bird passed in my hand, I cried and panicked, and probably upset and stressed her more instead of being a source of comfort, because it was so unexpected. 

I do believe stress and whatever they did at the clinic might have caused or hurried her death.

You did all you could, and I think most vets just don't have the background of helping pigeons with various diseases and such, unless you actually have an avian vet who has pigeons of his own and treated them for years. I wouldn't trust my avian vet on a difficult diagnosis, she just doesn't have the knowledge or background of pigeon care, no one but me brings in a pigeon for a fecal! 

Anway, just letting you know, again I'm sorry for all the suffering you have been thru as well as Henny's passing.....and Glad  you are back!


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## LondonPigeon

I'm sorry to hear about your baby Brad


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## Pidgey

One of the possibilities might be anemia or a specific presentation of it--aplastic anemia. You'd said that they were having a difficult time getting the flow of blood stopped and that's one of the problems with aplastic anemia--there's not enough platelets to seal off the hole. In a condition where the bird's having a hard time getting enough oxygen due to relative thinness of the blood (making breathing labored), any blood loss can become life threatening. That's been one of my thoughts in this particular instance but it's just a possibility and it's not something that's typically preplanned for. I'm not even sure if they could find that in necropsy.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Brad, welcome back.


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## feralpigeon

Brad,

Glad your back, and that you took some needed time away as well. Perhaps the necropsy will put things in perspective, and, maybe not. But, with time, I know that you will find a way to do so regardless. I also know, that you did everything that you could to help Henny and you shouldn't be hard on yourself.

fp


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## Birdmom4ever

Oh Brad, my heart aches for you. I'm so sorry, but I missed most of the thread because I was busy and then away. I checked my e-mail a couple times while I was in Italy and Treesa told me you'd lost Henny. I got back last night and read the whole thread today. I'm so, so sorry. You did everything to diagnose and treat her and yet you still lost her. I know that nothing anyone says can take the pain away. I know you loved her as a beloved family member. Unfortunately I know the pain of losing a beloved pet only too well. You are in my prayers, Brad, and my heart goes out to you. I'm crying as I type this.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

I have gotten two updates from the necropsy done on Henny. The first one was from Wednesday and the second one from today. I have to say, I'm very disappointed in both the vets and myself. It seems that this could have likely been treated and cleared up a long time ago with the use of tetracyline or one of it's kin. Henny would probably still be alive today had I have tried or thought to try this familiar antibiotic. I used to have some but it was expired, I should have thought to try this a long time ago because it's quite easy to get and easy to use

http://media.putfile.com/results-part-1

http://media.putfile.com/results-part-II


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## LondonPigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have gotten two updates from the necropsy done on Henny. The first one was from Wednesday and the second one from today. I have to say, I'm very disappointed in both the vets and myself. It seems that this could have likely been treated and cleared up a long time ago with the use of tetracyline or one of it's kin. Henny would probably still be alive today had I have tried or thought to try this familiar antibiotic. I used to have some but it was expired, I should have thought to try this a long time ago because it's quite easy to get and easy to use
> 
> http://media.putfile.com/results-part-1
> 
> http://media.putfile.com/results-part-II


I'm sorry to hear that Brad

but don't blame yourself


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## Maggie-NC

Brad, your vet should be feeling pretty low about this also. You have no reason to blame yourself although that is natural under the circumstances. Tetracycline is a drug I have never used myself for any of our birds and is something I wouldn't have thought of. It would be nice if you could talk with the pathologist. When we had Feisty necropsied I discovered that they're really knowledgeable about birds.*

Do you think they will give you a written report. I never got one when we had Feisty necropsied but I think the next time I see the vet I'll get a copy so I can post it on the site.


*I may have to take that comment back after reading about the idiot pathologist in NYC talking about culling 100,000 pigeons because of the bird flu. Big time idiot.


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## mr squeaks

Please don't blame yourself, Brad! You'll only end up tearing yourself apart!

Hindsight can be great for preventing "future" problems, but for now, it's just that, HINDsight...

Take care of YOURSELF for your sake AND Eggbert, Ricky and Lucy, who are still with us!

WARM HEALING LIGHT AND THOUGHTS TO HELP...


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## TAWhatley

I agree with Maggie, Brad. Please don't be thinking that you should have known to try the tetracycline .. like Maggie, I wouldn't have thought of it either as it seemed Henny's problem(s) needed a much bigger "gun" than tetracycline. If anyone should have thought of it, it should have been the vet. I'm so sorry that even now you are not really getting the closure you need.

Terry


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks folks, but I still feel very bad about this. Henny had breathing difficulties all along and this was one of her very first signs back in March. Tetracycline is often used to treat respiratory problems in pigeons...at least from what I know. I should have thought of this and/or at least tried it way back in the beginning. Tetracycline can be bought here at the aquarium stores as well so I could have gotten it easily. 

Likely the AGY was a secondary infection to the bacterial pneumonia and the amphotericin B probably did work for the 2 weeks she was on it. It was the bacterial infection of the lungs, crop and esophagus that ultimately killed her after so many months and it does seem like she may have drowned in the fluids in her lungs caused by the stress at the vets.

The vets here do NOT work with you, they want to diagnose everything first before they prescribe any medications. They did a crop smear and nothing showed. Unfortunately for Henny, it was too late and only diagnosed after her death

I hope this information helps someone else in the future and saves one of their pigeons because this shouldn't have happened and Henny could have been treated and her death prevented


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

I couldn't get the links to work, but now I see from other posts, what the gist of the reports are. I agree w/Maggie, that your vets should be feeling pretty low at this point, when we are stumped w/an illness we turn to them for help and while they saw that the megabacteria was growing in population, they treated it as the primary cause even though she'd had the health issues for a while. In the primary cases I've read about, it is a quick demise, so that in itself would have suggested that it was not the primary issue.

You also turned here for help and suggestions, and none of us could wrap our collective minds around what the primary issue was. You mentioned the breathing problems as well. I am just so upset that this happened and like Terry, feel that it is unsettling to the point of not providing the closure that one would have hoped for. I'm sure in your mind, you will wonder about bringing a beloved pet back to these vets in the future for help when you need it. I would think that a crop swab would have yielded the information that was needed to save Henny. This is just so, so upsetting.

fp


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## Pidgey

fp,

The two links went to *.wav files that were apparently voice mails that Brad received. They take awhile to load although I'm on dialup so no wonder. Anyhow, the first is a preliminary that tells that they found some inflammation in the esophagus, lungs and crop, I think it said in four spots. The second says that it cultured out to be Alpha Hemolytic Streptococcus and was susceptible to Tetracycline.

Sometimes, pneumonia infiltrates will show up in the lungs by an X-Ray, but they never did one. Doing a crop swab may or may not have found the spot(s) in the crop--it would have been hit or miss. It might have required an endoscopy to see the bad spot and take an accurate biopsy. The procedures are in the Big Book for doing a biopsy on a lung for that matter but you'd usually only go to that stage after having discovered an anomaly from an X-Ray.

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever

Brad, please try not to beat yourself up over this. I wouldn't have thought of tetracycline, either. You trusted your vets to accurately diagnose Henny and they failed. But as Pidgey pointed out, they might not have been able to. You did the best you could with the information and resources you had at the time.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

For those who are interested, I just got some more results from the necropsy on Henny. The vet called yesterday actually but she is basically just confirming what we already knew but in a little more detail from the histology reports.

http://media.putfile.com/3rd-results-part-1

http://media.putfile.com/3rd-results-part-II


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## Birdmom4ever

This is still so frustrating and it seems her death should have been preventable if the vets had only prescribed the right antibiotic to begin with.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Only way to fix it....*

Make a few calls to some attorneys...in the USA, this "Mistake" might be worth $10 or $15,000 US dollars. I personally would be going for six figures. 

Won't bring back your loved one, but it might help ease the pain.

Turns out, stuff I have right in my ref. would have fixed your bird, and for about 50 cents US. I would have used these materials first, but with a "Vet" who could argue or disagre, they are the "experts" ? This expert killed your bird. And he was paid in good faith to offer professional help.

At any rate, perhaps a monitary settlement will help improve future care.


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## mr squeaks

*Strickly my opinion...*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Make a few calls to some attorneys...in the USA, this "Mistake" might be worth $10 or $15,000 US dollars. I personally would be going for six figures.
> 
> *And Brad could go bankrupt by the time all was said and done...*
> 
> Won't bring back your loved one, but it might help ease the pain.
> 
> *Doubt it. Prevents "closure" since who knows how long things will drag on...AND, Brad could still end up bankrupt...now, THAT'S pain!*
> 
> *Turns out, stuff I have right in my ref. would have fixed your bird,* and for about 50 cents US. I would have used these materials first, but with a "Vet" who could argue or disagre, they are the "experts" ?
> 
> *Maybe, maybe not...*
> 
> This expert killed your bird.
> 
> *Possible slander. Prove it...*
> 
> And he was paid in good faith to offer professional help.
> 
> *True. Maybe Brad could discuss the situation without acrimony...*
> 
> At any rate, perhaps a monitary settlement will help improve future care.


*Highly doubtful. Brad could be seen as a "troublemaker" may possibly be refused any future treatment...*


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## JGregg

Yeah, well not getting treatment with the bad vet isn't much of a loss.

Anyways the whole fiasco has "Malpractice" written all over it.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

mr squeaks said:


> *Highly doubtful. Brad could be seen as a "troublemaker" may possibly be refused any future treatment...*


 Well Mr. Squeaks,

You have some valid points. But in the USA, we are able to vent with attorneys now days...instead of our six guns. So it is at least an option which is available to Brad, even in Canada.

Most PI attorneys work on a percentage, so it could cost nothing. My bet is a letter from an attorney could have his insurance company running to settle out of court. I suspect the "good" doctor would not like the negative PR of a court case. Of course I am the type of no good Bas**** who would hire a picket line to picket his office. 

Yep, he may not want to "Practice" his meds on any more of my birds, but then again, what are the odds, that I would go back to him anyway ? No, I personally would need some money to help ease the pain. 

A recent wrongful death suit againest our city was settled out of court for $2,000,000. Ask those relatives, if they feel better already, even if it's just a wee bit.

In the end, it may use up a lot of negative energy, but at least it is being directed in a positive legal way. And for me, I personally needed a way to vent my frustration with the medical community in this situation.

The "good" doctor should just be happy that he is dealing with good natured Brad instead of me, as I would be his worst nightmare.


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## mr squeaks

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well Mr. Squeaks,
> 
> You have some valid points. But in the USA, we are able to vent with attorneys now days...instead of our six guns. So it is at least an option which is available to Brad, even in Canada.
> 
> *True. But, that's one of my points. I think we are becoming "Sue" monsters. Someone steps on your lawn, sue 'em! People seem to act in rage first, reason second.
> 
> BUT, to be honest, there have been times when I would have had no qualms using a six gun! Sure solves the "problem" quicker...*
> 
> Most PI attorneys work on a percentage, so it could cost nothing. My bet is a letter from an attorney could have his insurance company running to settle out of court. I suspect the "good" doctor would not like the negative PR of a court case.
> 
> *True, but how long would the process take? AND, make no mistake, attorney's will get their "fee" somehow and Brad would HOPE that his Ins. company would cover him. He could still end up paying. Paper is one thing, reality is something else.*
> 
> 
> Of course I am the type of no good Bas**** who would hire a picket line to picket his office.
> 
> **gasp* NO! I never would have thought...*
> 
> Yep, he may not want to "Practice" his meds on any more of my birds, but then again, what are the odds, that I would go back to him anyway?
> 
> *I'm sure Brad would not go back. BUT, how does one know that "word" wouldn't spread and he would still be labeled "troublemaker." The consequences could be more far reaching than anticipated...*
> 
> No, I personally would need some money to help ease the pain.
> 
> *Yes, money does have a siren call allure. But, won't bring Henny back AND whenever he USES the money, he will remember about Henny! What kind of closure is that??? The pain just prolongs...*
> 
> A recent wrongful death suit againest our city was settled out of court for $2,000,000. Ask those relatives, if they feel better already, even if it's just a wee bit.
> 
> *Don't know 'em, can't ask. See above comment.*
> 
> In the end, it may use up a lot of negative energy, but at least it is being directed in a positive legal way.
> 
> *Mmmm, not sure I "completely" agree with that...negative, unfortunately, among us humans, often times BEGETS negative...*
> 
> And for me, I personally needed a way to vent my frustration with the medical community in this situation.
> 
> *I can understand why you feel that way and do agree. However, I question if what you are advising is the only "means" to the end...*
> 
> The "good" doctor should just be happy that he is dealing with *good natured *Brad instead of me, as I would be his worst nightmare.


*Oh, I don't know, Warren...I think Brad could see you and raise you one...we all have our dark sides. Few beat a Scorpio (me) in this regard! Control is the key and USUALLY works... 

Anyway, Warren, thanks for the discussion. Gave me a chance to put my thoughts in order.  

Of course, the bottom line is Brad and what HE is going to do...*


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*"Squeaky WheeL gets the Oil"*

Mr. Squeaks,

I would have thought, that you of all people, would appreciate the "Squeaky" wheel concept !  

But, boy I must confess, your advise is certainly more measured and thought out then mine. I sometimes react with my heart, instead of my head.... You make excellent points, and most likely gave, the best advice.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi everyone, 

No, I will not be seeking a lawyer or financial compensation for what has happened here. The vets really didn't do anything wrong. Am I happy with the way they handled things or me...no. I wish the vets here would be a little more speculative, but they aren't and medicine is not given out for no reason. They followed procedures and were getting to the bottom of Henny's problem. They wanted to do x-rays on Henny awhile back but I was afraid of that. They might have seen the pneumonia on the x-rays if I had gone with this advice and then could have prescribed a proper antibiotic. However, Henny could have also died at the office from the stress of being restrained for the precedure, just like she died after having her blood taken. It's just unfortunate that it took so long and only after her death that they found out the real issues. 

I think I've learned a lesson here and that is to trust my instinct more. I really should have known to try the tetracycline but like everyone else, I was thinking her illness was much more complicated. I hope this whole tragedy might help someone else down the road and maybe prevent the death of one of their birds.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

I received the final, written copy of Henny's post mortem in the mail yesterday and I thought I would share the results. I still miss her tremendously and if/when I think about her too much, I get depressed and saddened I just don't know what I'm going to do next for Eggbert or myself. (sigh)

I don't have a functioning scanner which would have made things SO MUCH EASIER...but I'm typing it out from paper.

*BACTERIOLOGY*

Culture..............Reported: 06/05/26
Lab...................Results
# Specimen ID
_________________

3. crop/esophagus......................Streptococcus sp.alpha hem.......4+
See attached Susceptibility: 1

4. Lung...........4+=large, 3+=moderate, 2+=few, 1+=occasional organisms isolated.

*GROSS PATHOLOGY*

Gross pathology report: 06/05/23

External Findings: Thick, white mucus in oral cavity. Venipuncture site - brachial region, left wing....(*This was from when/where they took the blood)*

Body Condition:OK. Hydration: slightly tacky subcutis. Fat stores: OK - SQ/thoracic inlet/intra-abominal. Muscle Mass: Slight prominence of keel.

I*nternal Findings*:

The cervical esophagus was dilated (`2cm dieameter) and filled with soupy greenish ingesta. The distal (intrathoracic) portion of the esophagus was dark red in colour (both serosal and mucosal surfaces). The proventriculus was empty, and the gizzard contained grit and greenish fluid. The intestinal contents were brown and soupy. The colon was narrow and contained only a small amount of fecal material. Many oocytes/yolks were developing in the ovary. The lungs were dark red, with generalized, multiple `1-2mm size pale foci/nodules. Kidneys - congested, Spleen - `0.8cm diameter, dark red.

*Clinical problems answered at necropsy*: The esophagus (throughout the neck region) was dilated and filled with soupy greenish ingesta - similar material filled the crop. The lungs had a generalized/multifocal pattern of tan foci/nodules. Both lung and crop will be cultured, and tissues examined histologically.

*Necropsy Diagnosis* (tentative): Esophageal dilation/esophagitis Pneumonia. Tissues held: F/H Various.

*Histopathologay Report:* 06/05/31

No lesions were seen in the following tissues: myocardium/skeletal muscle/trachea/oviduct (1), brain / ovary (2), oviduct (3), duodenum / jejunum / colon (autolysis obscures cellular detail) (3), femur/ bone marrow (4).

*Changes were seen in the following tissues*:

Lung (1,2): the lung is moderately congested and edematous. There are many aggregates of fibrillar, eosinophilic material (fibrin / serum) in parabronchiloes and small vessels. Liver (1): There are generalized, mild to moderate perivascular mixed inflammatory cell infiltrates at oportal triads. These are primarily mononuclear cells, with small numbers of heterophils. The liver is moderately congested. Kidney (2): There is moderate renal congestion. Pancreas (3): Small numbers of acinar cells contain a single clear (lipid?) cytoplasmic vacuole. Esophagus (3): The mucosa is unremarkable. Thers is a moderate amount of mucus and ingested debris at the mucosal surface.

*Histologic Diagnoses*: Acute pneumonitis / pulmonary edema

Comment: The changes seen in the lung are acute in nature, and are similar to those seen in acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) in humans. In ARDS, some injury causes breaching of the normal alveolar epithelial cell barrier, and alveolar spaces are flooded. Large numbers of alpha-hemolytic streptococci were isolated from both the lung and crop, but the significance of this finding is unknown; there was no evidence of inflammatory cell infiltration in the bacteremia. This bird may have had a dysbateriosis secondary to prolonged antimicrobic therapy. There is acute congestion of the lung and of the other tissues. Futher sections of heart will be trimmed in, to further investigate for possible cardiac lesions which could have led to congestive failure.

*ADDENDUM (2006/06/05)*: Further tissue was trimmed in: Heart base / large artery: The vessel wall contains a moderate amount of blueish, slightly fibrillar ground substance between elastic fibers. Plaques which consist of loosely arranged connective tissues, macrophages containing lipids, and similar ground substance impinge on the vessel lumen.



********************END OF REPORT**************************


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## Pidgey

I've been chewing this one over since you posted it. One of the things they mentioned is "dysbacteriosis" (it's spelled wrong above). That's a shift in the balance of the flora of the gut that can occur for different reasons but they're hypothesizing that it was due to "prolonged antimicrobic therapy". Now, that's a bit weird seeing as how you gave Henny probiotics aplenty.

I listened to the verbal reports again and while the written report mentions that the streptococcal species was an alpha hemolytic type, it doesn't mention the exact species (e.g. S. pneumoniae). The significance of "alpha hemolytic" is that the species found was one that destroys red blood cells in a certain way. They allude to a conclusion that the necropsy cannot completely answer--that there was the possibility of dissemination of the bacteria into the bloodstream (bacteremia) that may have caused a partial ongoing anemia. That coupled with the damage to the lungs, the anxiety of the medical procedures being performed and the blood loss was, altogether, just too much and this we know in our hearts.

I'll have to go back through the entire thread again to see why we didn't take the road not taken.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks PIdgey,

I knew you would find the crux of the matter in this medical report. For the most part, I understood it and you're right; it's a hard nut to swallow. Henny wasn't overdosed on antibiotics and she got plenty of probitiocs.....this is very questionable in my opionion as well. 

So frustrating, and heartbreaking. At least now, I've got some kind of closure and there is an "end". We all know now the reasons Henny died, and they were right ultimately too, acute pneumonia. 

I miss her, want her back.....I was treated very nicely though by my vet and the hospital. I received a sypathy card, I got Henny's footprint in ink that day she died, and my vets also donated money to the Guelph Hospital to continue their research and in dedication to Henny. 

I received the bill from the Guelph teaching hospital and their bill for the full post mortem was nearly $300...but since it went through my vets, they only charged me $150. It's something and a gesture...as with the other things.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Never goes away....*

Brad, 

It is one thing to study something in the abstract, and quite another when you are reading about a loved one, pigeon or otherwise.

Unfortnately, we don't know how many people die every day in the process of a doctor learning his or her trade. We hope and assume that in time the results get better. 

My hope is that, future pigeons may benifit from the "lessons" learned in this case. Perhaps that will be the good that comes from this. 

I recently cried all over again, when I was presented with a picture that had been "lost" in actics and basements for about 40 some odd years. A pigeon that I loved, and which died needlessly....in 1968. Some wounds never really heal ..... 

I am sure, the loss will be felt for a long time to come....


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## Pigeonpal2002

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My hope is that, future pigeons may benifit from the "lessons" learned in this case. Perhaps that will be the good that comes from this.
> 
> I recently cried all over again, when I was presented with a picture that had been "lost" in actics and basements for about 40 some odd years. A pigeon that I loved, and which died needlessly....in 1968. Some wounds never really heal .....
> 
> I am sure, the loss will be felt for a long time to come....


Thank you Warren, 

I hope as well that some lessons will be learned here by all of us and that some "good" will come from what was discovered through the many posts since Henny became ill and from the necropsy results.

Sorry that you had to relive a painful memory when you came across the picture of your beloved pigeon from so many years ago


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