# 24 hour lights



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Who here has their lights on 24 hours a day when it comes to their breeders. My breeders are off to a slow start because I moved them this summer and its been real cold. I was thinking that 24 hours of light might bring them around. I have only one pair on eggs in the breeder loft but already have banded 10 young off my OB racers where the light go out at 8PM. Any thoughts?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I wouldn't do it for too long. Maybe 3-4 days at the most. I'm not sure if there is any evidence backing this, but as far as I know, 24 hours of light is not natural for any living thing. They need to shut down and rest.

I'd recommend going 16 hours of light and 8 hours of dark. 16 hours is a really long time to get the breeders going.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

The lights are on 24/7/365 in my breeding lofts and they have been for atleast 15 years. I don't see any ill effects and I've raised multple IF Hall of Fame birds and combine winners vs over 2000 birds so I don't think it'll hurt to give it a try. I even always left the lights on in my YB coop 24/7/365 until the summer of 2011 when I turned them off and then I turned them off again last year because I had good results in 2011 YB's with 4 IF Hall of Fame birds. But with the lights off I've only won one out of the 13 yb races I've flown. But with the lights on 24/7 in the yb loft the 10 years prior I won over 20 yb races. Which works out to about 1 in 5. But the past couple of years I've been clocking more birds near the top even if they aren't winning. But who knows if it has anything to do with the lights. Since I changed alot of stuff over the past few years to see what work and what doesn't work for me. But like I always tell the local guys that ask me how I do things and I tell them and they look at me like I'm crazy or lieing and that how I do things will never work. I just tell them you have to find what works for you and your birds not what works for me or some other guy. But back to the lights put them on and see what happens I have a bird that's 20 years old and a few pushing 20 and they haven't seen the dark in atleast 15 years and they are just fine.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Pigeon0446 said:


> The lights are on 24/7/365 in my breeding lofts and they have been for atleast 15 years. I don't see any ill effects and I've raised multple IF Hall of Fame birds and combine winners vs over 2000 birds so I don't think it'll hurt to give it a try. I even always left the lights on in my YB coop 24/7/365 until the summer of 2011 when I turned them off and then I turned them off again last year because I had good results in 2011 YB's with 4 IF Hall of Fame birds. But with the lights off I've only won one out of the 13 yb races I've flown. But with the lights on 24/7 in the yb loft the 10 years prior I won over 20 yb races. Which works out to about 1 in 5. But the past couple of years I've been clocking more birds near the top even if they aren't winning. But who knows if it has anything to do with the lights. Since I changed alot of stuff over the past few years to see what work and what doesn't work for me. But like I always tell the local guys that ask me how I do things and I tell them and they look at me like I'm crazy or lieing and that how I do things will never work. I just tell them you have to find what works for you and your birds not what works for me or some other guy. But back to the lights put them on and see what happens I have a bird that's 20 years old and a few pushing 20 and they haven't seen the dark in atleast 15 years and they are just fine.


I used to keep my lights on 24/7 just as you do in my breeding section. However my racers are right next to my breeders and it had the unintentional effect of keeping them awake all night. (I.E. they never truely got a deep sleep and there racing performace dropped.

Once I went to 16 hours on and 8 hours off and made certain no other light source could interfer with this schedule. The racing performace went right back up to the top. I also noticed that the young coming out of the nest were healthier. 

The 1st round youngster were all from the time when I had the lights on 24/7 and I lost most of them in training. Second round is when i changed the lighting to 16/8 about half way through and I lost about 50%, with the later hatches doing better than the early ones. Then by the third round they were all on the 16 hours on and 8 hours off. This round was by far the best and with almost no losses prior to the first race.

The kicker for me was that everything else was the same. Same feed, vitamins vaccines (given at same stages), ect ect. The only variable that changes was the lighting. 

I had planned on eventually putting in solid walls to block the light from the breeder section from bleeding over into the flying section. But decided after the youngsters coming out of the nest appeared to be healthier and stronger, that I would not bother with it.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lawman said:


> I used to keep my lights on 24/7 just as you do in my breeding section. However my racers are right next to my breeders and it had the *unintentional effect of keeping them awake all night. *(I.E. they *never truely got a deep sleep* and there racing performace dropped.
> 
> Once I went to 16 hours on and 8 hours off and made certain no other light source could interfer with this schedule. The racing performace went right back up to the top. I also noticed that the young coming out of the nest were healthier.
> 
> ...


 Hey Law Man,

Like yourself and others, I to once subjected the birds in the breeding loft to 24/7 light. Everyone ends up drawing their own and sometimes different conclusions. It was certainly a bit more simpler on my part, to just flip the lights on in November and keep them on for entire breeding season.

This thing we call nature, is a very mysterious force, even after many centuries of study. We learned in very basic science and biology type classes about "Cause and Effect". Nature sometimes prefers disorder and chaos, but it also has a certain rhythm to the madness. 

People will think because they have some positive results, that a certain action has no cost. Cost in terms of a physical, emotional, or some other measurable price one must pay for upsetting the balance. 

Long about way to say what is the price of subjecting an individual to a less then ideal sleeping situation ? Far as we know, all animal life forms require rest and sleep. When they are deprived of ideal rest, then they can not function at 100% efficiency. I can digress to a time a long time ago, during army days and college when I went for extended periods of time without adequate rest. One could point to accomplishments and say "See it does no harm", but I can tell you there was both a physical and emotional price which was paid. I spent a summer once working three jobs and doing a double course load at school. I got by on less then 3 hours of sleep a day and still managed a high GPA, but who is to say how much better I could have done, if I would have been able to enjoy even 7 or 8 hours of sleep a night ?

* Raising kids is hard work. No different with pigeon parents. *That 7 or 8 hours of darkness, allows everyone to chill just a bit better, and get a bit better rest. When the lights come on, they hit the floor, fill up on feed, and that will be done throughout the day. My experience has been that more light beyond 16 or so hours, what they would get if it was say June or July, does not result in the babies getting fed more. Thus, I could see no advantages to more light, and the real possibility the parents were not getting as good of a rest as they would if the loft was darkened for a period of time. 

So, almost a few chapters in a book to say I think you are correct in that there may actually be some harm done by artificially creating 24 hour days of light.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I wanted to add that Alex Bieche uses a light system on his breeders and young birds which the lights are on 24/7 until march when the Equinox happens in North America , that when there is equal amounts of natural light and dark. That's when he turns his lights off and the young birds molt quickly. 
Well we have one for and three against, I think I need more input but I thank you so far for responding.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> * Raising kids is hard work. No different with pigeon parents. *That 7 or 8 hours of darkness, allows everyone to chill just a bit better, and get a bit better rest. When the lights come on, they hit the floor, fill up on feed, and that will be done throughout the day. My experience has been that more light beyond 16 or so hours, what they would get if it was say June or July, does not result in the babies getting fed more. Thus, I could see no advantages to more light, and the real possibility the parents were not getting as good of a rest as they would if the loft was darkened for a period of time.
> 
> So, almost a few chapters in a book to say I think you are correct in that there may actually be some harm done by artificially creating 24 hour days of light.


I agree with Warren completely. If you were only going to get a round of babies out of the breeders then its no big deal. But say you were going to breed 2 or 3 rounds out of the birds, thats a lot of work with no rest!

Imagine having twins (human babies) and they never went to sleep, 24 hours a day. That would take a lot out of a human parent.

Same thing with pigeons. We might think its ok, but thats because none of us speaks pigeon. 

I'd rather let my pigeons rest for 8 hours a day in complete darkness, and know I'm giving them an ideal life. Instead of putting the lights on for 24 hours a day in hopes of the parents feeding the babies a few extra times during the night (when they would be asleep), in return of getting babies that grow up quicker (due to more feedings).

There's no need to do that if you start breeding early and have lights off for 8 hours a day. You'll still get 3 rounds of babies by the time the races come around.

I know personally, I'd be more at ease if I know my birds are fully rested every day. I think its pretty selfish depriving them of sleep and rest, but thats just my opinion among many others.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

When I go out to turn the lights off each night many birds are perched and have their eyes closed and are already a sleep. I have 41 birds in my breeders loft. One YB someone gave me,( too young to breed) 4 are old an infertile, so no need to worry they will not be over worked.18 pairs one round = 36 babies first round. I need only one round off many of them, except my best , I would hope for two rounds , or I can try to farm out their eggs which would be all the better. I still breed off my race birds too. 
I was just out there and with this warm front we have it seams many cocks are taking to their baskets. Its 35* today last week -15*. Still can't believe Alex Bieche is the only guy in the US that leaves his lights on 24/7 besides pigeon 0466.


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## GrizzleMan (Jan 17, 2013)

I watched Alex Bieche and I don't agree with his method.......... The dark system is better in my eyes..... If you want to make it easier do the dark system


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

It doesn't even need to be a system!

The lights only help during the first 2 months when there isn't enough light outside for the birds to think its spring and time to lay. 

Once spring comes around, the only thing your lights will help with is the electricity bill. 

But even during the winter months, 24 hours lights seem unnecessary. 16 at the most is good enough (makes the birds think the days are longer). Once the birds are done with the 1st round, the days will start to get longer for the 2nd round so you may only need light for a couple hours of day in the evening (say sun sets at 5 pm, leave lights on till 8 pm or 9 pm). 

Every fancier has their own "program" but I'd highly recommend not to use lights more than needed. It just isn't natural.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Revolution Lofts said:


> It doesn't even need to be a system!
> 
> The lights only help during the first 2 months when there isn't enough light outside for the birds to think its spring and time to lay.
> 
> ...


A few things I was going to just let go but I want to respond. 

First He who controls the lights win the battle with the molt, whether you use the dark or the light system or just leave the lights on 16 hours last summer to keep your YB s from starting a molt could be a big help. 

As far a s 24/7 light being unnecessary is still up for grabs. I know only a few people responded but I talked with a friend and he always leaves his lights on in the breeding loft with know ill effects and changing the winter months into summer with 16 hours of light is unnatural too. The problems with the dark or the light system is the birds need an adjustment time before road training because they at a bit lost as far as their earths position because of the light change and also with the dark system you need the lights on longer in fall to a just to the extended dark or the fake winter with the extended dark in the spring . Just a few things to think about. 

I have up my lights till 10 now to see if it helps with my breeders and I'll adjust from there. to be continued...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ERIC K said:


> A few things I was going to just let go but I want to respond.
> 
> First He who controls the lights win the battle with the molt, whether you use the dark or the light system or just leave the lights on 16 hours last summer to keep your YB s from starting a molt could be a big help.
> 
> ...


 Just a thought....I like to turn light on very early in morning to get those extra hours of light on the breeders. I prefer this to leaving them on into the dark. The reason is to avoid having a hen caught off the nest and have the lights go out, and she not being able to get back onto nest. Just a thought...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

GrizzleMan said:


> I watched Alex Bieche and I don't agree with his method.......... The dark system is better in my eyes..... If you want to make it easier do the dark system


 I suspect if you live in Canada you are correct. But, it may very well depend on where your loft is located and when your races are held. Once upon a time I held your view, but now I really am not so sure. In this area of south central Pa. the races start 1st Saturday in Sept and runs for 8 weeks. Darkened birds seem to peak in Sept and fall apart in Oct. At least what I see in local conditions and application of darkening. Birds under lighting are not as fast out of the gate, but they hold together for the entire season. Just not sure anymore you are correct in every case.


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## Mader631 (Sep 7, 2008)

My breeders are on 24/7 lights right now.....


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## windycityflyers (Apr 26, 2010)

my rollers been on 24/7 since november


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Back in the old days I never used lights And most everybody I knew did not use them either. And funny thing I raised about as many youngbirds As I did when I started using lights every year . But nowdays everyone thinks LIGHTS. And use them as a system also. Still think it is better for the birds to do a full moult lose those baby feathers And they same to show a better age after they do a full moult. Kind of there right of passage. 24 hour lighting I see NO use for that But each there own.


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## TALON (Oct 29, 2011)

I have the lights turn off at 11 PM.


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

I have mine on 17 hours each day, centered on 12 noon.


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## pluviru (Jul 14, 2011)

Better leave with no lights in my opinion. They will breed as they are ready with natural conditions.


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## GrizzleMan (Jan 17, 2013)

I would think 24/7 lights on is not good on the birds. They need there rest. About 17 hours is good enough.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks for everyone response. I have decided to go with the 24/7 lights for a few reasons, the main one was what a good friend said and does for himself. 
I don't need to worry about a cock in the middle of the courtship finding himself in the dark away from his perch or nest box.

Remember that my prisoner breeders are in a different building than any of my race birds which only have lights till 8pm.

I'm sure babies coming off of 24/7 lights need an adjustment period before heavy training which mine will get. I'll be busy with my OB team in the spring which will give the young time to adjust to the real light and time zone their in. I am also thinking they will be into a heavy molt at that time according to the Bieche system.

February 14 will be here before you know it and with the extreme cold weather we have had here I need to push the breeders now that it back in the 20's during the day. 

I have on several occasions had race birds come home and after drinking sleep for several hours in the middle of the day so I know birds can and do sleep with the lights on. Even birds resting in the sun will sleep very sound.

After a round or two the breeders will have the rest of the year to rest and rebuild themselves up which for me means try not to get them to fat in the off breeding time.


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## GrizzleMan (Jan 17, 2013)

I disagree with what you are doing to your birds..... When you have the lights on 24/7 your going to get a few birds walking around and such and nobody gets sleep......


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

My breeders are on 24/7, and my young birds will be on 24/7 lights until June 15th as well.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

GrizzleMan said:


> I disagree with what you are doing to your birds..... When you have the lights on 24/7 your going to get a few birds walking around and such and nobody gets sleep......


Yeah I agree. It can't really be called rest. Rest is when everything is dark and you get time to shut down. That's why we go to sleep, that's why lunch rooms are often times dull, so that you get a chance to shut down a little during your break. 

I don't agree with the 24/7 light idea, what that is just my opinion. I think rest should be considered a basic need. The 24/7 light idea gives you a little bit of advantage as I said earlier. You will get babies that were fed a couple times more in a 24 hour period (due to the light being on for a long time), who in return will grow up quicker and their training can occur sooner.

However, I think you would only be a few days ahead of schedule. I don't think 4-5 days ahead of schedule is worth putting the stress on your birds during breeding season. Especially when some of the birds are really old prisoner birds. They need all the rest they can get because of all the breeding.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Revolution Lofts said:


> Yeah I agree. It can't really be called rest. Rest is when everything is dark and you get time to shut down. That's why we go to sleep, that's why lunch rooms are often times dull, so that you get a chance to shut down a little during your break.
> 
> I don't agree with the 24/7 light idea, what that is just my opinion. I think rest should be considered a basic need. The 24/7 light idea gives you a little bit of advantage as I said earlier. *You will get babies that were fed a couple times more in a 24 hour period (due to the light being on for a long time), who in return will grow up quicker and their training can occur sooner.*
> 
> However, I think you would only be a few days ahead of schedule. I don't think 4-5 days ahead of schedule is worth putting the stress on your birds during breeding season. Especially when some of the birds are really old prisoner birds. They need all the rest they can get because of all the breeding.


 That might be the theory, but in practice the birds do not feed the babies more often, they are attempting to sleep. That has been my experience anyway. I found a more natural routine of getting up at dawn (even if lights at 3 in morning) and going to bed at a regular time. I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't eat any more if I was exposed to additional day light, and apparently the birds don't either. If one is a 24/7 lighter, sit in your loft all night with the lights on and record feeding times, and weight the babies. See if they are pumping them full of feed 24/7, they don't. You can't always fool Mother Nature.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

GrizzleMan said:


> I disagree with what you are doing to your birds..... When you have the lights on 24/7 your going to get a few birds walking around and such and nobody gets sleep......


I guess we are going to just disagree. I go out late say 10 pm and the ones settled are already asleep , some still on the chase well there doing their thing, with some cocks calling to their hens and the likes . 

Before I made up my mind on what I was going to do as far as the lights ,I called the one guy I know that people all around the country respect for his pigeon flying ability and knowledge , and I quote him "I'm not going to tell you what to do but for me once my lights go on, they stay on". If it works for him and he is one of two guys in the club to beat on race day then I don't see why it wouldn't work for me.


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## GrizzleMan (Jan 17, 2013)

Do what you have to do Eric. Yes you talked to a few guys and maybe there good flyers and so on but if you talked to a few other guys on the other side of the fence they might use a different method. 

I say 24/7 lights cause stress of some degree. Balance is key


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm sure that over time some stress might happen, but if I had a video of the way my breeders looked tonight and how they acted after a week on 24/7 you could never have seen happier birds in your life. The lights have kicked started them and I like what I see.

Sure thing when you post an idea or question you'll get many different replies and more that one side. I'm just choosing one of them . 

As far as trying to get ahead in anyway that's not why I'm using the lights. What I really want is a round of babies near the same age so by pushing all the breeders at one time I will have or should have eggs with in a few days of each other not a few here and a few there. Even my oldest cock that did not fill an egg last year is running around happy as a spring chicken .


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

To Each Their Own,and it's what works for You and Your Birds,be it no lights, 16 hrs or 24/7.And it's Alot easier to have your birds come down on eggs the same time and hatch the same time then to have sporatic laying and hatching and young birds of different ages.Alot easier come training time to train birds the same age.


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