# Whiteside



## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

How does whiteside work genetically? I read that it is better not to breed whiteside to whiteside, correct? Does whiteside only work on recessive red? Birds start out solid and then the white comes in later, correct? Is it inherited dominant or recessive? Thanks for any information!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't know if whiteside is a separate gene or not. I know tiger grizzle (mottle) does the same thing. I don't see why you wouldn't want to breed whitesides together. And no, it isn't just for RR. There are a lot of black whitesides as well


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

As I understand what I have read and discussed with a few people, there are different genes that can cause whiteside patterns, though none of them are completely understood.

For instance, certain breeds might have both red whiteside and black whiteside in their standards, but these could be caused by different genes. In these breeds mating the two different kinds of whiteside would result in offspring that are NOT whiteside at all.

There are at least three different causes of the whiteside expression that I've seen:
1. Some Grizzle factor (could be tiger grizzle) with spread - this can cause black birds with white wings, though they would also probably have grizzling in the head.
2. A whiteside gene that moults out white shields, but ONLY in recessive red birds. There was a thread here or on the pigeon genetics mailing list that specified that these birds are self recessive red in their juvenile plumage and moult in the white later.
3. It could also be as simple as extreme selection of pied genes, as is the case with many breeds that contain regular white markings, eg. lahores. In these cases I understand that birds that show too much white should never be bred together, as the white could get enforced in successive generations, but I am unsure whether this is a principle founded in genetics proved through experiments, or just breeder knowledge.

It is important to note that a lot of selection might be necessary to have birds in any of these three distinct expressions show perfect (or near perfect) white shields.

I have never bred any whitesides myself, and research on the Internet can be notoriously inaccurate, so please take my comments with a pinch of salt.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

White on recessive red, in any form, is still not understood. We still haven't figured out what combo of genes is needed to make it show (since it would normally cover up everything else except recessive white).


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you both. I think in Frillbacks (which I am most interested in) it is what Rudolph listed as #2 " A whiteside gene that moults out white shields, but ONLY in recessive red birds. There was a thread here or on the pigeon genetics mailing list that specified that these birds are self recessive red in their juvenile plumage and moult in the white later." I don't have this pattern but was curious as I could not find anything on its inheritance.


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree with what rudolph.est stated, I have Dutch High Flyer (Whitesides) and Both Reds & Yellows are born pretty much Self color, But sometimes I have seen the odd 2 or 3 white feather pop up on the Shield when born… Then they really start to Blossom the white on the Shield as they Molt the first & second year and the third year their in full glory like most pigeons, Although I find plucking a few feathers that don’t turn white on the Shield helps them replace that feather White after a few plucks, I don’t know anything about “Color Gene Factors” in DHF Whitesides or any other Pigeons for that fact, But I have read a little on the Subject and Understand what rudolph.est mentioned in his post has truth in it…!… I’ve started this week to pair up 2 DHF Whiteside Cocks 1 Red & 1 Yellow with 2 Beautiful, Solid Orange Yellow Danish Tippler Hens that have only a few white spots on there wing butt & shield and I cant wait to see the Results??? 

Louie


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

A recessive red specific white shield gene is dominant but needs a recessive enabler next to rec.red of course (Axel Sell, article in Geflügelbörse). A general white shield mechanism is some form of grizzle (dominant) that needs spread (and probably another gene) to limit the white to the wingshields; also very variable in expression (Axel Sell's article again).
Magpies and nuns should have a whiteshield gene in addition to white flight gene and gazzi (or whitebelly in magpie, which I think is allelic to gazzi). My question would be how that gene looks in isolation. Could be a great alternative to the other white shields.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> A recessive red specific white shield gene is dominant but needs a recessive enabler next to rec.red of course (Axel Sell, article in Geflügelbörse). A general white shield mechanism is some form of grizzle (dominant) that needs spread (and probably another gene) to limit the white to the wingshields; also very variable in expression (Axel Sell's article again).
> Magpies and nuns should have a whiteshield gene in addition to white flight gene and gazzi (or whitebelly in magpie, which I think is allelic to gazzi). My question would be how that gene looks in isolation. Could be a great alternative to the other white shields.


Do you have you an English translation of Axell Sell's article, Henke?

I could see the Nun having a white-shield gene but not the Magpie, the saddle marking encroaches on an area that should be white for the typical whiteside pattern. 
An American Tumbler breed attempted to produce black whiteside pattern using a Nun but I don't think he was successful.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*-In Dr.Gibson's book page77 he speaks of two types of whitesides. The recessive red type and the black whiteside (which is a separate trait) The birds leave the nest with the white sheild in place and do not change in the molt.This trait is produced by a grizzle closely allied to but not the same as regular grizzle or is grizzle plus a modifier for the whiteside trait. He goes on to say that some leave the nest with grizzle feathers around the head that disappear in the molt.Occasionally some leave the nest with only the pepper head phenotype and may only have a white area on the back between the wingsThese do not change in the molt and maintain the pepperhead phenotype.* GEORGE


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

indigobob said:


> Do you have you an English translation of Axell Sell's article, Henke?
> 
> I could see the Nun having a white-shield gene but not the Magpie, the saddle marking encroaches on an area that should be white for the typical whiteside pattern.
> An American Tumbler breed attempted to produce black whiteside pattern using a Nun but I don't think he was successful.


What area? You mean that some area in the magpie is not-white that should be white? Could not be much.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> What area? You mean that some area in the magpie is not-white that should be white? Could not be much.


The scapular feathers on whiteside markings are white, the scapular feathers on a saddle-marked pigeon are coloured.

Saddle-back markings are a pied-white pattern.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

selection


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> selection


Saddleback will breed oddside and bellneck patterns.

Any English translation for the Axel Sell article, please?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I only have german paper copy.

For a dutch chicken's man: what are "oddside" and "bellneck" exactly?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> I only have german paper copy.
> 
> For a dutch chicken's man: what are "oddside" and "bellneck" exactly?


Here is a "bellneck" and an "oddside".


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Now I am confused. Magpies are the saddleback marked ones, with colored scapular feathers, right?
My magpies breed true.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

I bred saddle-marked Long-faced Muffed Tumblers and some of my original birds were oddsides (resulting from saddle mark and coloured shield birds). Bred with saddles they bred a percentage of saddle-marked offspring and also oddside-marked birds.
The "oddside" Roller is bred from two birds with solid-coloured wing shields. 

"Bellneck" Show Rollers have been bred and shown recently in the UK, these have been developed from baldhead-marked birds. 

I presume when the markings have been stabilized they will breed true.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Do you have a picture of such a saddle marked Tumbler?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> Do you have a picture of such a saddle marked Tumbler?


Saddle-marked Long-Faced Muffed Tumbler - an almond and a blue bar. The blue bar has the correct head markings required for this breed i.e. "snip", "whisker" and "eye-spot". This variety has not been developed to the same degree as the self, barred and baldhead Muffed Tumblers. The complex head markings are difficult to replicate, consequently they are more challenging to breed and less popular than the other colours and patterns.


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