# One pair and they babys



## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Hello.
Ok lest see if I'm learn some thing.
This cock is ash-red- blue pattern, because has black spot in the tail, please if I’m incorrect just tell me thanks.

And the hens looks like ash red.

Thanks for you help.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Now the babies.
What color is the cock??
The hen look like derty blue??
Thanks


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

One more baby


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

You are right, the cock is an ash-red split for blue. Probably has some other genes, maybe sooty smoky and/or dirty, it is usually hard for me to tell on ash-reds.

The hen is brown or possibly dilute brown. There is an extreme amount of bleaching visible, so I cannot be sure. Flights look rather dark for a bleached dilute brown. Cannot be sure of her pattern, but maybe T-pattern, but due to the bleaching I cannot see clearly.

The babies are [maybes in square brackets], in order of appearance - dirty [sooty] blue bar, sooty blue bar, dirty blue bar, [sooty/dirty] ash-red bar with white flights and another dirty sooty blue bar.

The fact that all of the babies are barred and not a single on T-pattern like the parents seem to be is rather odd. It could be that the father is an extremely dirty ash-red sooty bar.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

So the hen is not ash-red, hum interesting, What do you think the babies looks like if I pair this hens wit a recessive red cock or one similar to this cock
Thanks.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

firingo said:


> So the hen is not ash-red, hum interesting, What do you think the babies looks like if I pair this hens wit a recessive red cock or one similar to this cock
> Thanks.


I am pretty certain the hen is not ash-red. I wish someone else would comment on her color though. Consensus of the masses usually gives fairly accurate answers.

If you mated her (I'll assume she is a brown check for now), to a recessive red, you probably will end up with a lot of blue checks (since both brown and red are recessive). Mating these blues together would give you the change of breeding blues, reds and browns.

Mating her to the bronze breasted cock will also give you blues, probably with bronze breasts, though some might not have the bronze gene (depending on whether the cock is homozygous for archangel bronze).

If you want more birds like her, you should mate her to a son. This will give you 50% change of breeding more browns. Mating parents to their offspring is often the fastest way to get [recessive] genes in a homozygous state (which is the whole point of inbreeding).

In my opinion, I would mate the bronze birds with the darkest of the barred offspring from this pair. The darkening modifiers might help the bronze to shine better.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

The hen looks spread brown, cock looks spread ash-red.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

indigobob said:


> The hen looks spread brown, cock looks spread ash-red.


If both these birds were spread, wouldn't it be rather unusual to get so many youngsters that aren't spread? The first youngster might be a weak expression of spread, but I don't think so, but the other 4 aren't spread.

Firingo - what follows is a rather more in depth discussion, so don't worry about understanding it just yet.

Statistically, it is more likely that just one of the parents is spread , assuming the single dark youngster is weak spread and not just extreme dirty. If indeed only one parent is spread, I think it is a toss up which parent it is. Neither look like spread to me, but due to the bleaching in the brown and the variability of spread on ash-red, it is difficult to be definite.

The chance of getting only one spread from a 5 through the mating of 2 heterozygous spreads is ~1.5% - that is to say, your hypothesis is not impossible but highly improbable. On the other hand, chances of only getting one spread from 5 through the mating of a heterozygous spread to a non-spread bird is ~15.6%, which is well within the 95% confidence level for statistical analysis. (To calculate these values I used the binomial function as described by Richard Cryberg and is reasonable for such small samples)


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

How you know if the hen is recessive or dominant? 

This hobby is like to be a scientific, or biologist. wow


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

firingo said:


> How you know if the hen is recessive or dominant?


I don't quite understand the question. The hen is brown, which is a sex-linked recessive gene. It is just one of those things you have to look up on the websites or (preferably) learn off by heart.



firingo said:


> This hobby is like to be a scientific, or biologist. wow


It does get quite technical, but luckily one only has to learn as much science as one wants to. You don't need to know everything, just ask an expert when you get stuck.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

You answer my question, this hen is recessive.
Thanks.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

This cock looks like spread ash red (possibly bar) and hen looks brown or dilute brown t-check to me. Does the hen have a tail bar? This combination would explain the progeny. Happy learning!


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Tmass, Looks like every body agree that the hen is brown,
When peoples say brown that is mean bronze, or color bronze is different?

Before this post I was thinking that the hen is ash-red or Yellow, but now I now that she is brown, how do you know the different between colors, when they similar?

Thanks.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

firingo said:


> Tmass, Looks like every body agree that the hen is brown,
> When peoples say brown that is mean bronze, or color bronze is different?


When we say brown, we mean brown. Pigeons come in three basic color groups, blue, ash-red and brown. 

There is no bronze in these birds.

You can see an idea of what all the different bronzes looks like by searching for Modenas, Archangels and Kite Rollers on Google.



firingo said:


> Before this post I was thinking that the hen is ash-red or Yellow, but now I now that she is brown, how do you know the different between colors, when they similar?


If you thought she was yellow, she probably is dilute brown spread. I made the same mistake the first time I saw a dilute brown bird in person. Dilute brown birds are distinctly yellow looking. Once you have seen all the colors once in real life, you can be sure that you will be able to tell them apart. Yellows are actually more of a creamy yellow colour, while dilute brown is usually more between the color of butter and khaki (like the people on safari wear).

The easiest way to check though, is by looking at the tail, if the tail bar is dark (or there is no tail bar because the entire tail is dark), you are not looking at an ash-red or ash-yellow bird. The ash-red and ash-yellow group always have light tails, between dirty-cream and white in color, like the cock you posted in this thread.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

What I'm wanted to do is cross these bronze birds with yellow or brown homer but not loose their bronze color. This is possible.
Thanks.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

firingo said:


> What I'm wanted to do is cross these bronze birds with yellow or brown homer but not loose their bronze color. This is possible.
> Thanks.


If the bronze is indeed caused by the archangel bronze gene, yes it is possible.

It is important to remember that the bronze might not display quite as well on the background of a different color. Bronzes on brown will probably be the least striking in their contrast.

The yellow (dilute ash-red I assume) should work well though, dilute causes bronze to lighten to a more golden color, and bronze ash-red bars are also quite attractive (look at bronze white-wing archangels for an example).


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Trentron yellow should be a good option rigth??


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

firingo said:


> Trentron yellow should be a good option rigth??


Trenton should be fine, though I am not sure whether they are dilute recessive red or dilute ash-red. I seem to think they are recessive red, which is not really ideal in this case. I'd need to see a picture to be sure though.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

You know where I can buy a good pair of trenton yellow
Thanks


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Sorry, I do not know any breeders in the US, I live in South Africa.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

I see, hehe that is my problem I never read the profile of the member, you are five-year youngster than me


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

My yellow homers. I bough from a local breeder


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## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

firingo said:


> My yellow homers. I bough from a local breeder


Nice yellow homers..


My two red and yellow are getting bigger.. hehe


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

The yellows are pretty, they look like they are still rather young. Hope they give you beautiful dilute recessive red babies.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

RamenNoodle said:


> Nice yellow homers..
> 
> 
> My two red and yellow are getting bigger.. hehe


Thanks Ramen, Yes your pigeoos are getting bigger and nice too.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

rudolph.est said:


> The yellows are pretty, they look like they are still rather young. Hope they give you beautiful dilute recessive red babies.


Yes they are young birds. 

I will let then to have their own babies, after that I will pair with the bronze homer, I let you now the result, by the way can you post some pictures of your bronze homer??

Thanks.


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## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

firingo said:


> Thanks Ramen, Yes your pigeoos are getting bigger and nice too.


You're welcome firingo. 
Thanks also.


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