# Please, help. Pigeon barely eating, opening mouth, shaking head.



## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Hello,

I'm very stressed out, I just rescued this pigeon from a really crappy pet store about 5 days ago. His leg is messed up, almost like it was broken or sprain before and he has a difficult time walking, even standing and balancing sometimes. The knee joint on his bad leg is bigger than the other too...

Ever since I got him, he's been eating less and less... He's very very skinny now- so much you can tell by looking at him. 

I sorted through pieces of food to see which he liked best- noticed he liked safflower and some other particular pieces and I went and bought him those specific foods along with the basic dove/wild bird mix. Got him Oyster Shells and herbal grit too...

He's been doing strange things like opening his mouth and shaking his head. He also has lice or mites.. I got rid of a lot of them using 8-in-1 Mite & Lice Ultra Care... 

Anyway, in the video, all of his 'odd' behavior is documented- he likes to nibble on blankets, clothes (cloth in general), hands (skin in general), and he shakes his head a lot and opens his mouth. He's barely eating now- he ate more when I first got him, but it's less and less everyday...

Here's a video I recorded today that shows all of the behavior I talked about... Towards the end is the most important- the 'mouth opening' thing... 

If anyone has ANY ideas, please please PLEASE let me know... I'm so stressed and worried... 

Thanks so much!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5wfW-wVFlU


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I watched the video and I've seen my birds do that mouth opening thing, but it was usually because they had a feather stuck in their mouth or throat. Can you get a video of the bird trying to walk around? It was quick at the end and hard to tell anything.
What was the bird doing in a pet store to begin with? It's a feral pigeon, right? 
Have you wormed the bird?
Just sitting in the blanket looking around, it looks pretty normal, but I find it odd that the bird is so calm. If it's loosing weight, there's SOMETHING going on for sure.


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

No, he's some kind of fancy pigeon... That's exactly what I thought when I saw him... "What's a pigeon doing at a pet store?!" They said he was 'fancy'- he has feathers on his legs and feet... 

I think his injury was from walking around on the bars at the bottom of the cage- his little legs kept falling through... That's why I had to save him from that awful place... 

No, I haven't had him wormed- I don't know much about pigeons, but I've been doing research...

Can worms cause a weak appetite? And what should I de-worm him with? 

Also, it seems that the mouth thing is somehow related to the mites... He seems to bite at himself, or groom or something- and then he does it... Multiple times... 

I'll get a video of him walking now and post it ASAP.


Thanks for your assistance!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, first of all, do you mind tellling us where you are? We might have a member close by that can help out with some meds and stuff. Otherwise, you'll probably have to order the worm medicine and of course it's Friday.......EVERYTHING bad happens on the week end or the middle of the night.


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Omg, I KNOW exactly what you mean... Weekends and holidays- and the worst- extended holiday WEEKENDS... Why is that?!?! 


Anyway, I'm in Los Angeles... (West Hollywood specifically)

I'll get the video in a few, he just got up and wanted to go to his cage to eat, he's pecking a few pieces at the moment, but he's definitely not "eating"... His chest bones are so prominent... It's breaking my heart seeing him like this... His mood seems fine, but he's a bird, and they don't exactly have a wide range of expressions and obvious emotion... 

He's very friendly and loves human contact, and loves sitting on soft, cushy surfaces...


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Here's a couple of pictures of his poop just now...

I used PS to lighten it up a bit so you can see more 'detail'... 





(Click the pic for bigger images- although you probably already knew that! )


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Aqua said:


> Omg, I KNOW exactly what you mean... Weekends and holidays- and the worst- extended holiday WEEKENDS... Why is that?!?!
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm in Los Angeles... (West Hollywood specifically)
> ...




OK. We do have members close to you and probably in Los Angeles.....I've just got to remember who they are............hold on...............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, his poops don't look half bad.........that's good.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Im so glad you got this birdie out of there, try to find a avian vet and make an appointment and tell them he is sick, they might get you in earlier, have an exam and tell em whats going on...in the mean time sounds like you are doing all you can for him, if you can carefully open his beak and look down the throat and report what you see and someone can try to guide you from there, if it seems clear, perhapes you can pop him some seen down in the back of his throat to get something in him, dip his beak in some water mixed with organic apple cider vinager ( 4 tablespoons to a gallon of water) try bottled not city water. some others I hope will have some more ideas to keep him going till you get to the vet, keep checking back.... yeah just saw the poops, they look good so that is a good sign.....


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Good to hear, Lovebirds... I hoped it was OK- I figured anything 'runny or yellow' would be more along the lines of 'bad'... I really appreciate your help, seriously... 

Thanks to you too Spirit Wings, I'm going to take him to the vet for sure... Hopefully monday I can get in...  I wanted to look in his mouth, but I don't know how to go about doing that- it's easier with a cat or dog, but birds are so small and delicate...  I'll try but I'll probably have to wait for my bf to get home from work to help. What's 'seen'? Or did you mean seed? I'm sorry, I don't know if it's some kind of bird/pigeon term I don't know about! I'll do the apple cider vinegar thing too- what's it for, by the way?

Also, I thought about getting him some colloidal silver- it's worked wonders with my cat, and a growth that my ex-bf's dog had on his leg... Even my sis's strep throat! 

It's the only thing I can think of doing at this *very moment* that might help...


****I should add, this isn't a "CRITICAL* situation at this exact moment, but he's so thin, and barely eating, you know how birds can go from 'OK' to 'NOT OK" super fast... I've rescued feral pigeons off the streets, and immediately took them to a rescue in South Bay, I've had rescued sparrows die within hours before I could even get them to the rescue place... **** Plus, I love animals (all creatures- even bugs- currently rehabilitating a snail that had a crushed shell) sooooo much, I get very stressed and emotional...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Does his leg feel hot as it would if it were infected?
It's important that you get food into him. One easy way is to hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Open his mouth and pop them at the back Of the throat and the bird will swallow. You will want the crop to fill up to about the size of a walnut so you would be feeding 25-3o kernels per feeding. Also hold up water so the bird can drink. It could very well be that this bird has had trouble getting to the food because of the injured leg.
You can get a spray treatment for mites at the pet store. Be very careful not to get it in the bird's eyes when you spray. To treat the head, spray on a cloth and wipe it on the bird's head and neck.
They can be very itchy with a worn infestation too and also be very skinny as a result. It seems like the sore leg may be this bird's underling issue.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Definatetly try the colloidal silver, a drop or two daily for her is enough. It has worked great for many of my birds too.
S/he doesn't look like a fancy pigeon, but s/he sure is a darling. Very sweet bird. Good thing too she is alert and lively, interested in her surroundings and giving you kisses, how cute.
Can you give him some extra seeds by hand feeding her? It takes a lot of time to do this but since she is so tame she won't mind.

Reti


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the apple cidar vinager(organic) is for good probiotics and health, you will want to give that in his water a few times a week, for good digestive health, this is a wonderful post by Treesa to read.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=74793&postcount=2


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Charis, (Thanks for your help!)
No, his leg isn't hot... Doesn't seem infected- no broken skin either... It's like a knot- like it broke or sprain before...  He hobbles around on it, but can stand- although doesn't seem to like to for very long- flaps his wings for leverage... And yeah, I did the super-duper 'careful' mite treatment- used a qtip for his head/neck. Does worm treatment for pigeons only come from the vet? I know with cats and dogs, you don't want to get the over-the-counter garbage, but again, I don't know how it works with birds and things like that...
I'm getting the video ready know- him walking/standing...

Reti,
Thank you as well! Yeah, I feed him by hand, I sit all day with him, watching and monitoring every action, every move- I'm so concerned about him... He's on the couch most of the time, and when he has to poop, he stands up and flaps his wings, then he climbs into my hands, and I put him in his little box with newspaper, then he poops, and climbs right back to my hands and sits on his little blanket, or my lap. I have food in front of him constantly, and will try every little thing I can think of to tempt him into eating. He does peck some pieces, but not much at all. And his crop is empty- I mean, I wouldn't even know it was there by feeling...  

I'm gonna do the CS for sure... Gonna get in about an hour or so...


I posted a pic, you can see his feathery legs and feet... 

PS...
He's also sneezed a few times since I got him... Maybe 3-4 times a day... He just did it 3 times within a span of 30 seconds as I was typing... 


************

ALSO, 

He drinks his water, no problems there... I bring it to him and offer it every 30 minutes or so... Oh, and it's bottled Distilled water... I don't give nasty tap to him or my cat.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I am im Simi Valley...not too far from West LA.... You can PM me here if things go "south" over the weekend and before you can get to a vet. I do not want to horn in as it all seems under control, and am not certain I could do much more than you are already doing...but I am home this weekend if the need arises and I have hand fed, medicated and rehabbed many pigeons. Good luck and thanks for your kindness to this bird.

p.s. make sure he is hydrated. If he is not drinking , hold a shot glass under his beak and dip his beak into it. And maybe use "emergency hydration fluid"...bit of salt, bit of sugar in the glass... if you cannot get any solid food down him, you can try Kaytee or some other baby bird formula from the pet store in the short term (narrow spoon or dropper)...he needs nourishment and water no matter what else is wrong with him and if his keel (chest bone) is sticking out, he has not eaten in quite awhile.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OH, I see the feathers now. Pretty bird. Couldn't see all that detail in the other video.
I don't guess it has a band on at all. Not that we'd want to trace it I don't think. Just thought it might give a clue as to the breed. I'm thinking some sort of Flying Flight.......however they don't have feathered legs/feet......maybe a mix....maybe that's how it ended up at the pet shop. 
It's very possible that the bird broke it's leg at some time and it didn't heal properly. What a shame.


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

kippermom said:


> I am im Simi Valley...not too far from West LA.... You can PM me here if things go "south" over the weekend and before you can get to a vet. I do not want to horn in as it all seems under control, and am not certain I could do much more than you are already doing...but I am home this weekend if the need arises and I have hand fed, medicated and rehabbed many pigeons. Good luck and thanks for your kindness to this bird.
> 
> p.s. make sure he is hydrated. If he is not drinking , hold a shot glass under his beak and dip his beak into it. And maybe use "emergency hydration fluid"...bit of salt, bit of sugar in the glass... if you cannot get any solid food down him, you can try Kaytee or some other baby bird formula from the pet store in the short term (narrow spoon or dropper)...he needs nourishment and water no matter what else is wrong with him and if his keel (chest bone) is sticking out, he has not eaten in quite awhile.



Thank you soooooooo much for your kind words and your offer to help... 
He is drinking water (distilled bottled) but yes, his crop is empty. I tried baby bird formula last night, he stuck his beak in it, thinking it was water when he saw the bowl I guess, then he shook it off like 'eww'... And yes, he 'keel' is very very prominent... 

I can't even function normally, it's hard to be happy at all when I know he's 'less than perfect', and even hungry...  

How hard is it to 'force' feed them with a dropper? Do they tend to 'give in' or do they resist?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please read my post # 11. It's sp easy to feed that way.


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Awesome Charis, yeah, I'm gonna do that, thank you...  I have to wait for assistance, about an hour...

And you're right Love Birds... It is a shame. People who abuse and neglect animals should be deleted from the universe.

I'm uploading the video- him standing... It will be up in a few minutes...


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Oh, here's the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR1CbxwMohA


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, he's a type of pigeon that I don't have any experience with to know how they tend to walk (that breed has "funny" legs anyhow), but if you're looking at an arthritic process in that part of the foot, I'd actually tend to use Doxycycline instead of Baytril.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, I'd tend to guess that he's not very far from a cropper variety--that was what I thought when I saw him but I'm certainly no expert on breeds. Take a look:

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...rev=/images?q=cropper+pigeons&um=1&hl=en&sa=N

Pidgey


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Haha, how funny, His name is Pidgey, just like yours! His full name is Pidgeotto- like the Pokemon 2nd evolution (I adore that show!), but it's Pidgey for short (the 1st evolution) hehe! 

Anyway, yeah, I did some research, and found him to be a lot like the pouters- he kinda inflates his chest a bit, but I think he's too weak to go all out like the ones in the pictures...

I can't thank you all enough for your replies, honestly, it means the world to me! You're all extremely helpful, thanks x 1000000000000!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> By the way, I'd tend to guess that he's not very far from a cropper variety--that was what I thought when I saw him but I'm certainly no expert on breeds. Take a look:
> 
> http://images.google.com/imgres?img...rev=/images?q=cropper+pigeons&um=1&hl=en&sa=N
> 
> Pidgey


yep, you're right. couldn't tell that until I saw those LONG legs in the latest video. He's still not walking "normal" but I have to wonder if it's because of being kept in a small cage for so long? 
Aqua, how big (or small) was the cage that this bird was in at the pet store.?


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> Well, he's a type of pigeon that I don't have any experience with to know how they tend to walk (that breed has "funny" legs anyhow), but if you're looking at an arthritic process in that part of the foot, I'd actually tend to use Doxycycline instead of Baytril.
> 
> Pidgey



Are those antibiotics? Would it help his leg possibly? I notice that his toes look a bit, well, uncontrolled... Meaning, they're not positioned properly. Only on the bad leg... The toes on his other foot are normal looking, facing the proper way on the floor- the bad legs' toes are kinda laying sideways, and his 'balancing' back toe is to the front with the rest... I'm gonna check it out again when he's done munching- he's nibbling on food right now...


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Lovebirds, 

He was in a very small cage- couldn't even flap his wings...  I'd say it was about 1.5 x 2 ft.

He was MUCH worse with walking and standing the day I brought him home... It was like he was just learning to walk and was afraid to try... Plus the bars on the bottom of the cage were a death trap- he fell through it at least 5 times while I was at the pet store, so he would give up on trying to stand or walk.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't suppose you can take a closeup picture of that foot? Yes, Doxycycline is an antibiotic. It's not uncommon for pigeons to get bacterial arthritis. In such cases, they can have painful joints that limit their ability to walk, fly or both. 'Tis true--can't properly diagnose from what we've seen so far but sometimes it's better safe than sorry. I'd try to find a source for a Tetracycline at a store near you. Doxycycline's probably best but there are others that would work with names like Terramycin or Aureomycin. You can get them at pet stores and feed stores. If you found one and chose to treat, you'd have to get us the exact product and packaging for us to come up with a dosing strategy. Considering your explanation of his earlier life, I'd probably give him a few days to see how physical therapy helps out but I'd like to have the Plan B ready.

Pidgey


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Yes, I'll try to get a picture now. And there is a place called 'For Birds Only', they have antibiotics there. I'm gonna call and find out which types they have, then I'll let you know in a few. He does have hard lumpy spots in his legs- and they're not in the same spot on both legs either, so it can't be normal. Feels like the bone was broken and is sticking out in those spots. Not saying thats what it is, but thats how it feels- really jagged edge. 

From the looks of his foot now, it seems that the back toe I spoke of is where it should be kinda... It's hard to tell because of the feathers on his feet... 

Brb


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Here's the pics:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/127/pidgeyfoot120508xn4.jpg

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8194/pidgeyfoot1205082cq5.jpg


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Aqua,

Thanks for rescuing this little sweety. Bragg's raw apple cider vinegar is what
is most commonly used in terms of ACV. The raw ACV has what is known as the "mother" in it, which in itself contains probiotics and additionally, the acidic environment is what good bacteria thrives and multiplies in. Four tablespoons though, is a bit high...even just one tablespoon will provide the necessary acidic environment, two would be plenty for routine maintenance.
I'm tapping on the wisdom of Gordon Chalmers here on the amount.

It wouldn't be uncommon for a pigeon to have worms, canker (Trichomonas)
and Coccidia are also usually present though not necessarily in a disease state. Both Canker and Cocidiosis are present in what's known as a "host equilibrium" state, and when a bird becomes stressed for a variety of reasons, then one or both of these can rise in organism population and become a diseased state. Just something to be aware of for the care of your new companion.

Here's a link to the Resource Section which you can also navigate to from the
forum menu:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/

And from the Resource section, here is a link to the Pigeon Supply Houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pigeon-supply-houses-usa-amp-australia-only-9455.html

I have also seen some of my birds do the head shaking thing and beak gaping...sometimes the gaping can be as simple as having just finished preening, sometimes it can be worms. Medipet has a wormer that's pretty
broad spectrum and safe, here's a link;

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicin...ln-Praziquantel--pls--Pyrantel/Categories.bok

Ivermectin or Moxidectin (Scatt) are both good for protection against round worm (only) and external parasites that feed off of the blood. 

I would be concerned about the issue w/the leg and knee. What we don't 
know is if the problem truly stems from an injury or is this a form of Articular
Salmonella which would require treatment. The poops do look good and that
is promising. I'd keep a close eye on the bird's over the next few days and
see if the bird is navigating any better with a few days time and keep folks here posted w/progress updates on your bird. Also, a handy technique for
new comers when medicating or assisting w/eating is what Dr. Shuckman
refers to as the "Bird Burrito". You take something like a hand towel or 
pillow case, fold it length wise and wrap the bird up so that the wings are
immobilized and the head is sticking out the top. 

Hope this helps,

fp


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

What a beautiful bird!!!

He is so lucky you found him!!

I wanted to add that when I get in adult ferals that are sick, injured, stressed, skinny, or otherwise having a hard time eating I mix up some Kaytee Exact Hand Rearing Formula to the consistnecy of applesauce (it should be no hotter than 105 degrees), and using a tapered nosed large syringe (usually available at any petshop next to the hand rearing formula, or next to the puppy and kitten milk replacers) I fill their crops with one or two syringes full twice a day. 

If you have any experience with hand-feeding birds, pigeons are surprisinlgy easy - even adults. If not, maybe someone at the bird store (or a local pigeon person) can show you how? You don't want to accidentally shoot formula down the wrong pipe, but really hand-feeding pidgies is quite easy to do and helps fill them up with easily digestible food. 

Hope this info helps you out until you get him to the vet or wherever.


Best of luck to you, I hope you get to keep him when he's better, he is so handsome!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

In the first video s/he looked like a feral pigeon to me, in the second video when s/he stood up, what a difference  
You got a fancy there alright. 
It wouldn't hurt if you would purchase from the pet store a vitamin supplement and calcium. I know you mentioned you bought oyster shell grit but is she eating it? You might want to get something to put in the water. 
I would definately try some calcium. My vet recommends to dissolve a tums tablet in their water.

Reti


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks for the info feralpigeon...  How much Bragg's ACV in how much water? One tbsp per gallon? I just want to make sure I do it right! And thanks Karijo and Reti and everyone else I thanked before, this information is SOOOOOOOO helpful! I feel a lot better about this situation already. My bf is on his way back, and we're gonna get a bunch of stuff for Pidgey... 

And yes, he loves the Oyster Shell, I don't know how much I should let him eat, so I give him a little bit here and there everyday... 

As far as keeping him goes, well, when I got him, my original intention was to nurse him back to health, and release him (thought he'd be happier free)- but it didn't take long before I realized that he seems quite happy having blanket-nests to cuddle up in on a nice warm couch, in a nice warm apartment! He's super tame and friendly and looooooves sitting on laps. I think he'd end up sitting outside someone's door waiting for them to save him! And besides, all it takes is landing at the 'wrong' door with someone who thinks pigeons are disgusting (incredibly ignorant humans) and who knows what would happen... 

So, I think he's found his home right here.  My interest is always their interest- I want nothing more than the animal to be happy- that is my joy.

Gonna get ready to go, I'll post back with details on how the 'force' (I dislike using that term  ) feeding goes... 


Big Hugs to you all!! You're an amazing group of people!


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

well. he's either Brunner or pigmy pouter, I'd guess. What about just holding the food in your hand when you try to feed. That funny little kid of yours is very comfortable with hands, and a real sweetie. Sure glad you got him out of a bad situation. It's obvious you care for him greatly. You are going to be a wonderful pigeon parent.
Daryl


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that bird way more than likely wouldn't make it "out there"--he's a domestic pigeon and they usually don't stand much of a chance living out in the wild.

I can't see any serious swelling in those pictures. If possible, you might try taking a picture from the underneath side. That'd probably be more revealing due to the feathers.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Aqua said:


> ALSO,
> 
> He drinks his water, no problems there... I bring it to him and offer it every 30 minutes or so... Oh, and it's bottled Distilled water... I don't give nasty tap to him or my cat.





Hi Aqua



'Distilled' Water would be very bad for him...


Various Bottled Waters people use for drinking, would be fine...but 'Distilled', "No"...


I'll keep reading...


Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Aqua...as far as feeding...put a deeper, VERY FULL, small bowl type, dish of seed right in front of him ... water too. Make it always available except at night. You can sink them down in that blanket you have him on so it's easy for him to reach. Maybe he will just go after the food and you won't need to hand feed him. 
Generally, Pigeons eat a lot at one time. The amount you were offering him by hand, in the video, isn't nearly enough to sustain him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aqua,




His Toe-Nails are normal for a Wild or Feral Bird, or for a Bird who has notbeen in Cage or indoors especially long, anyway.


Possibly, he had sprained or pulled a muscle or twisted a Joint at the Store-Cage-Situation...and, having had him on 'distilled' Water, has messed up his system.


Poops indicate he has been without Grit.



So, if it was me, I'd try this -


Real 'drinking' Water, whether Bottled or 'tap'...


Good Grit...


ACV-Water, say, to the tune of Three to Four Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water...of whatever Water which is not 'distilled'.


And see how things go.



Supplimental Vitamins-minerals would be good also.



Good luck..!



Phil
l v


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

OK, the bird store didn't have doxycycline, and it was too late to get Ornycin Plus (they suggested that) because they shut down the debit terminals... So they gave me some formula for the time being...

I also got frozen organic peas and corn, Bragg's apple cider vinegar and Colloidal Silver...  

Gonna read back through these posts and make sure I administer everything properly!

Also, I did notice that the 'knee' swelling I mentioned feels a bit less today, I'll have a closer look and try to get pictures with as much detail as I can...

Thanks to you all!!!!!!!


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Charis said:


> Aqua...as far as feeding...put a deeper, VERY FULL, small bowl type, dish of seed right in front of him ... water too. Make it always available except at night. You can sink them down in that blanket you have him on so it's easy for him to reach. Maybe he will just go after the food and you won't need to hand feed him.
> Generally, Pigeons eat a lot at one time. The amount you were offering him by hand, in the video, isn't nearly enough to sustain him.


Oh OK, I'll get him a deeper dish... What I was giving him by hand was just trying to get him to eat... He has bowls of food all over from me trying to 'inspire' an appetite... I'll do that now...  Thanks 




pdpbison said:


> Hi Aqua,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OMG, no way! Crap... I thought distilled water was the best one...  OK, no more of that! Thank you for finding that out for me, I would have never even thought of checking that out!

So, as far as the grit goes, should I give him more Oyster Shell? I have herbal grit food from the pet store, looks like a bunch of small rocks mostly! He picks at it, but does consume it... But since he's not eating much of anything, I suppose he's not getting enough (of anything at all really)... 

Gonna dump this formula and make a new batch with regular water until I can get 'drinking' water... 

I gave him vitamins, my neighbor has it for his birds, but I'll get him his own tomorrow when the bird store is open... 


XO!


Aww.... he just flew over and sat on my lap... and melted my heart again!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It occurs to me that the feel of the feet from your point of view could be a little funny due to the feathers. Most of the birds that we deal with don't have significant feathers from the distal tibiotarsus down. Where's that? Take a look at the drawings here:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

In the bottom drawing, you can see the individual bones of the feet and legs, not all of which are named there. The joint where the lateral condyle meets the calcaneal ridge is the equivalent of the heel in us. It's at the portion of the tibiotarsus that's furthest from the body proper or the "distal tibiotarsus". The section called the "tarsometatarsus" would be the same as the bones of our feet between the heel and the toes. In birds, it's all one bone that's more or less "C" shaped, with the trough or hollow of the bone facing downward. The tendons that actually work the "phalanges" (toes) run through that channel.

Therefore, look and feel very carefully each section where you think there's a bump, swelling or anomaly and compare it to the exact same spot on the other side. Make sure they're not associated with feathers. Then, using the drawings for place-names, go ahead and try to describe exactly where you think any truly suspictions bumps are and we'll try to figure out if we need to try anything more than just simple time, food and room to stretch and walk.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Ornacyn Plus is Erythromycin. That one doesn't absorb as well from the GI (gastrointestinal tract) in pigeons. Part of that's from my vet and part of it's from... some deep, dark memory. Did they have any other antibiotics?

Pidgey


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2008)

What an adorable bird! Thank goodness you found him when you did! He looks so happy in his puffy blankie! 

I found this old post about a young pouter with leg problems.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/little-pygmy-pouter-some-questions-leg-problem-22465.html?highlight=pouter+baby

While your bird is not as bad, it seems that leg problems are found in these breeds. Being in a small wire cage made it worse I'm sure.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Possibly...this Bird is also in an on-going phase of Vitamin-Mineral deficiency...hardly uncommon with 'pet stores'.


This would exhagerate appearances of what otherwise might be a mild strain or sprain of a Leg...or slow healing of it.


If he is going to be on an anti-biotic regimen, then sources of supplimental Calcium should be with-held, rather than given - so, Oyster or other Calcium-enriched Grit types, as well as the all-purpose Bird-Vitamin-mineral would not be provided. during an anti-biotic regimen.


Can't have it both ways.



This Pigeon does not appear ill, or sick...


However, he sounds typical of long-standing malnutrition issues.



Poops look good, other than being 'fiberous' from lack of Grit.


Malnutrition histories take time to rectify.



This appears to be a young Pigeon, possibly only a few months old.


If part 'Pouter' or similar, likely came from someone breeding special varieties of Pigeons, and who knows what Anti-biotic and other 'flock-meds' history is there...having already ontributed to his issues.


He might also have never been allowed any direct outdoor Sunshine, for his system to make Vitamin D...


So, supplying Vitamin D might be a good idea....as it also is important for his Calcium metabolism...which might be some of what is going on with the Leg(s).


Small Bottles of 400 IU 'football' shaped Capsules of Vitamin D are available at Health Food Stores...and one of these a-day for several days, popped into his Beak as-is, would be a good thing...but, would be best along with supplimental Calcium and a medley of B Vitamins...so...a decision will need to be made, as for whether to treat for supposed bacterial inflammation of a Leg Joint...or, a Leg suffering from incidental sprain-strain and a history of malnutrition.


One or the other...but you can't do both at the same time.




Phil
l v


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Ok, he's on my lap, eating right now, don't wanna disturb him- I'm gonna check his legs when he's done... Thanks for the info! But yes, from my previous checks, the 'lumps' are not on the same spot on each leg... 

And antibiotics, they had tetracycline, some others- all the 'cycline' types, he said...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Aqua said:


> Ok, he's on my lap, eating right now, don't wanna disturb him- I'm gonna check his legs when he's done... Thanks for the info! But yes, from my previous checks, the 'lumps' are not on the same spot on each leg...
> 
> And antibiotics, they had tetracycline, some others- all the 'cycline' types, he said...




If there is a swollen area along a long bone, it would tend to indicate a still healing frature.

Swollen areas immediately next to, or including Joints, also occcur from sprain or fracture, and the swelling will remain while healing.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway, Aqua, you should check his mouth and Throat...as others have already suggested.


Wrap him gently in a small Towel, so his Lags are 'back', Feet against his Tail...

Spigot him between your Legs, behind your knees, as you sit, so you are holding him that way, hands free, holding him so your Legs are against Tail and almost tummy area and excess Towel, as it were, since you don't want any pressure on him.


Under a strong Light or Lamp, gently open his Beak and look carefully in his Throat and Mouth.


Note his Trachea, behind his Tongue, in front of his Throat proper, which Tradchea is his Wind Pipe of course...and see if it and everything else in there is a nice 'Shell Pink' or if anything is otherwise.



Phil
l v


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I know this must seem like alot of info to take in!...lol....but just wanted you to know your doing a fine job of getting this guy better, he is preciouse


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Good morning all... 

I wanted to reply last night, but I had such a headache after all the stress from yesterday... 

Anyway, I didn't have any luck 'force feeding' him, I couldn't even get his mouth open- as soon as I'd get it 'gapped', he'd whip his head around and that was that... He ate a somewhat "OK-ish" amount of food while sitting on my lap last night, but this morning, he's pecked maybe 15 pieces of food... 

I'm bummed, I feel completely helpless... I don't know what I can do... He won't touch the formula, and getting it in his mouth is NOT working... I know it's probably from my inexperience with this sort of thing... 

I don't even have words to describe how I feel right now. 

I don't understand, he constantly nibbles all over my fingers, hand and arm... All over the blanket, my sleeves, any fabric at all- trying to pull pieces off....... It's almost like he's looking for a food source in those places... Could that behavior mean anything?

PS...
when he does the open mouth thing, the inside looks to be a nice shade of rosy pink. Again, being the lousy bird handler I am, I can't open it long enough to look for any amount of time....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Maybe Kippermom can help you with that.
Did you try the deep dish of seed right in front of him?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh boy, I know it's hard....try putting the back of his head in the palm of your left hand and then use the thumb and index finger to hold his head still,and top beak staionary, little tuff love here...and then use your right hand thumb nail to open the bottom beak, your left hand keeping the head still, wrapping him in a towel like a burrito will help too.


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Charis said:


> Maybe Kippermom can help you with that.
> Did you try the deep dish of seed right in front of him?


Yeah, he still just pecks a few pieces here and there...



spirit wings said:


> oh boy, I know it's hard....try putting the back of his head in the palm of your left hand and then use the thumb and index finger to hold his head still,and top beak staionary, little tuff love here...and then use your right hand thumb nail to open the bottom beak, your left hand keeping the head still, wrapping him in a towel like a burrito will help too.


Ok, I'll try that... I felt his neck, it's so skinny...  It's hard to imagine how he can swallow anything... Should I try the corn and peas again, or the baby bird formula? And is there a risk of him choking- especially with the formula if I squirt it into his mouth? I read about tube feeding, but omg, that looks so difficult and potentially dangerous...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Aqua said:


> Yeah, he still just pecks a few pieces here and there...
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I'll try that... I felt his neck, it's so skinny...  It's hard to imagine how he can swallow anything... Should I try the corn and peas again, or the baby bird formula? And is there a risk of him choking- especially with the formula if I squirt it into his mouth? I read about tube feeding, but omg, that looks so difficult and potentially dangerous...


just check his throat is clear, and give the peas and corn....room temp, not cold


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Ok, I'll give it another shot... He's sitting on my lap right now, and eating... It's weird, but he tries to get on my lap and it seems as if he eats a bit more when he's sitting on me... Could it be the warmth he likes?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Aqua said:


> Ok, I'll give it another shot... He's sitting on my lap right now, and eating... It's weird, but he tries to get on my lap and it seems as if he eats a bit more when he's sitting on me... Could it be the warmth he likes?


he might be a yb so he may think you as his parent, if he is eating like that, keep doing what your doing, let us know how much though as he may need to be supplimented....the more he eats the better he may start to feel and go on to eat more normal from there...warm is good as if he is under the weather it will benifit him...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Aqua said:


> Ok, I'll give it another shot... He's sitting on my lap right now, and eating... It's weird, but he tries to get on my lap and it seems as if he eats a bit more when he's sitting on me... Could it be the warmth he likes?



Hi Aqua,



Many times, they prefer to eat with someone, so, if he's eating more, or has more interest on-your-lap, then that's fine, enourage him with your companionship...even 'pecking' along with him, using your crook'd index finger.


How many poops is he making in 24 hours?



Phil
l v


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

You know, the crooked finger thing seems to be somewhat effective so far...  I'm gonna continue to do that and see how much I can get him to eat! And poops, well, when I woke up, there was about 6 poops in his cage since last night... And he's gone 4 times since I got him out 3 hours ago... I'll keep count today...

I tried to put a mirror in front of him, thinking maybe it would help with the 'social' feel, but he just stared at it, neck extended, not moving at all, like a statue...


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2008)

If you have a gram scale, like used for cooking, or can borrow one, you can weigh him. That's the best way to see if he's losing or gaining any weight.


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

I'll have to ask some people about the scale, thats a good idea...  

Also, if anyone knows, can a respiratory infection cause lack of appetite or anything that would involve not eating much?

I've heard him sneeze a few times- it's not excessive, no fluid or anything like that- just a quite little 'pfft' sound... But I noticed sometimes when he's eating, he'll make odd breathing, exhaling sounds- kinda 'pfft-ish', but not a sneeze... A bird shop recommended Ornaycyn Plus for that... Any experience with that particular antibiotic?

Thanks again to you all!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Aqua, 

I just briefly read through your posts, and one thing did come to mind and that is the distilled water. I would agree with Pdpbison (Phil) on this. Distilled water is purified water that has had all it's minerals removed and there is evidence that this water will leech calcium and other minerals from the body.

http://www.historyofwaterfilters.com/distillation-pc.html

I would suggest either tap water or a good bottled but not distilled. Buy a britta water filter to use with tap water if that makes you feel more comfortable that the water is "clean" enough. 

Good luck with your pigeon and I hope he/she improves with the walking and standing.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2008)

My birds give a tiny little sneeze occasionally. If his eyes, nose, mouth are clear I wouldn't worry about it. 

Almost anything can cause lack of appetite. You can get small scales in many grocery stores. If you do get one, you should weigh him about the same time of day.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2008)

Aqua said:


> I don't understand, he constantly nibbles all over my fingers, hand and arm... All over the blanket, my sleeves, any fabric at all- trying to pull pieces off....... It's almost like he's looking for a food source in those places... Could that behavior mean anything?


Watching your videos again it looks to me like he's preening you. They do that to show affection or when they're happy and relaxed. They'll also peck to explore things in their environment. 

I can't get over what a cutie pie he, or she, is! I had to watch the videos a few more times lol.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I just quickly read though here (might have missed some stuff), but I would get him wormed as soon as you can. 
I have 3 inside right now with exactly the same symptoms your describing. I sent out a fecal to the lab and it came back - coccidia/moderate, roundworms/few. I spoke with an avian vet (my old boss) because mine are on a regular worming schedule so I couldn't understand why the worms. Whereas I have over 70, I started putting the worming med in their water instead of worming individually. He told me "in the water" was *not* as effective. As for coccidia, I seem to have a problem with that every fall! He said it can be stress related - in my case this year it was when the temperature dropped suddenly from 40-50 degrees to 10-20 degrees.
So currently I have to worm each individually, And they are on ALBON for 10 days for coccidia. Their doing better - I hope this helps


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

*Update on Pidgey *

Hello again everyone!  Sorry for the very much _delayed_ response- I've had a lot going on these past few weeks! 

Anyway, I just wanted to give a quick update on Pidgey... 

He (she?- still not sure!) is doing quite well! He gained weight, is standing on both feet (although his toes are still crooked- laying on their side to be more descriptive- on one foot-- and he limps on it a bit when he walks), he's flying around all over the place- and best of all- HE IS EATING!! ON HIS OWN! He will even fly to his food bowls (2 locations) to eat, and goes to Brownie's (my cat) water bowl for a drink _AND_ a BATH!! (He really get's into his baths- drenched!)

He's so much better now, it's amazing! 

However, he is completely in love with me... (likewise though, how could I not be, he's so super sweet!!)

He HAS to be on me at least 80% of the day- cupped in my hand, sitting on my lap (a fave) or attempting to sit on my head (which I will try to avoid for any length of time, for obvious reasons!) if I'm unable to hold him... hehe... 

Also, I think 'he' might be a 'she'... Tonight, (s)he was walking around on my chest and stomach, digging with her/his feet, and trying to 'place' my cell phone cord and sweater drawstrings underneath himself... Odd behavior, first time I'd seen it... Definitely interesting! I could only conclude it was 'nest making' behavior... 

Ok, it's late (early for most, bedtime for me!), so I'll wrap it up for now and leave you all with some new pictures of Pidgey and his unlikely friend, Brownie... : )

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/7857/animalfarm162smvp2.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/660/pidgeybath6croppedbrighta0.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9813/sittingtogetherpsframedrm3.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2627/zfriends3xs5.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8749/animalfarm182smic5.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1337/birdswatchingzo7.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/387/sittingtogether12bx9.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2128/zfriends9so3.jpg

And finally, a product of my morning/bedtime boredom... hehe... 
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5666/pidgebrowntl4.jpg


EDIT:
A couple more... : )

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/4932/windowwatchers4ng0.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2726/pidgeynaponmeol3.jpg


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Your pictures are terrific! Adorable! LOVED them......what a lucky little pigeon.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Oh my god!!! what a lovely pigeon and cat, they look very cute together, you made me smile... Great pictures!! and thank you so much for doing all that wonderful job.

Ivette


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great pics. Your cat seem in love with the bird too.
Thanks for sharing.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I very much enjoyed the pictures! Just precious! Thank you for sharing them with us!

Terry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well now, that's a cute pair. Thanks for sharing the pics with us. I can't even trust my dogs with the pigeons, never mind a cat. You have a great cat there.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Your pictures are priceless!
I hope you will start an album here so we can enjoy them for a long time.


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## Aqua (Dec 5, 2008)

Hehe, glad you guys liked the pictures! : ) I take TONS of pictures of them! There's almost no pictures of humans on my computer... hehe 

Oh, Charis, I started my album, thanks for the idea- although it's currently empty due to the file size limitations, I'll have to do some cropping and resizing in order to upload...  It will be full of pictures soon enough! hehe... 

Anyway, here's another

Brownie didn't care at all, but Pidgey kept sliding on her soft fur... hehe!
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/4079/zfriendsrz3.jpg


It's crazy how you can see through his eyelids- no wonder it seems like birds never really "sleep"!
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/4526/p8070041dz5.jpg


This picture was back when all you lovely people were helping me with Pidgey! : )
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2074/animalfarm42smda0.jpg

So was this one
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/4290/unlikelyduo4my7.jpg


And this is Pidgey's best _Sleepy Hollow _impression... 
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/3262/crazybirdstuff10kr7.jpg


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm sooo happy to hear that Pidgey is fine, and thanks so much for all those wonderful pictures! Brownie and Pidgey are just too adorable.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

What a precious.... amazing what a little good supportive care and love can do!!!


Thank you for caring for this cutie and for sharing.

Please do not hesitate to ask, if you need any help should any symptoms still persist.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey is one lucky little bird....bless her heart.
So.......they usually will sit on eggs for about 18 to 20 days and then leave them. With you being her "mate", she'll probably stay with them that long. OH, and she will lay another one in 48 hours. 
Leaving her out would be best as far as SHE is concerned. She'll stay on the nest and only leave to poop, eat or drink. 
I guess it's up to you and your situation as to whether you leave her out all the time. 
You MIGHT be able to move her nest to her cage, but I doubt it. They are very particular about their nests and don't like change. Not even a little change.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

What happened to the post I just answered???


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Lovebirds said:


> What happened to the post I just answered???


Aqua started a new thread in Pet Pigeons & Doves. That post should be there in the new thread.

Terry


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

yea I found it.


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## Alla (Feb 16, 2021)

Ok I know this was posted like years ago but if anyone else comes to this page with the same problem(s), I would like to do anything I can to help them. I Myself have a pigeon, she or he has been doing the shaking head thing too... it may be a sign of stress, lack of attention or food/water, or is too hot or cold. Or if your bird stops peeping, then that may be a sign that they are trying to peep again, but don't remember how. And as for the barely eating, If you are feeding them wheat, corn, or any of your allergies, then STOP NO DON'T DO THAT!!! you can get very sick from feeding them these kinds of things (they can too). try feeding them sunflower seeds, cooked steel cut oats, or a mixture of egg, coconut milk,(organic this is all organic) and ONLY ON PIECE of freeze dried dog food. (I know it sounds gross but it's much better than poisoning your bird 😉). 
I hope this helped, good luck with your Pigeon!
💛🐣🌺


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