# A deadly day..



## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

Well, me lahores had 2 babies just 2 days ago.. Today, after smelling a foul smell, i decided to clean their nest bowl and adjoining area only to find a 1-2 day old baby, crushed to death with lots of scars (prolly from stepping over)..

The other baby hand a drop of blood on its back so i sprinkled wheat and cleaned the wound with a disinfectant.. I also changed the bowl..

This pair has raised 2 successful clutches, and am wondering what went wrong.. They sometimes fight with each other but then make up.. 



The black pouter pair had laid eggs 5 days ago and were sitting on it.. Today, i found both eggs were broken with yolk oozing out.. They did this with their previous egg as well.. Whats wrong? They are adult birds with white ceres..

Second, they have laid 4 eggs in a span of 23 days and will lay more in 10 days.. I read that this is dangerous.. What should i do?



The white pouter pair, which laid eggs on 2 july are sitting tight but 1 egg is slightly damaged though no yolk is coming out.. Will it hatch or has it been wasted.. I wan to remove it because broken eggs invite ants... Why are the eggs breaking?



The fantails pair had laid 2 eggs this time (previously there was 1, then 1 and a small one though the small one didnt hatch).. But only 1 hatched and it has been 6 days... Why?


Thanks all for reading and for posting replies...


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Hmmm really stange, we have had a pair of babies trampled to death by the parents, well it's not defnate but since we found them dead the ext day we are assuming thats what happened, it might not have. Sorry, I can't help you.


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## NitaS (May 26, 2007)

I am so sorry for your losses. I don't have enough experience to offer you any advice, but I would think if the egg is damaged it should be removed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Hamza, 



Don't use Nest 'bowls'...

Take a Cardboard Box, elect one which is about 12 x 12 inches, or 10 x 14 or as may be, but no smaller...cut off all but the bottom inch and a half, and use that bottom 'tray' portion...line it with a small Terry-cloth Towell or soft folded cloth...use that.

Everyone has enough room then, and the Babys will not leave it till they are about 21 days old, and then they will tend to stay quite close to it even if 'out' of it...make sure they have a ledge or something with a few sq ft to it for the parents to take off and land, and for the Youngsters to have room to relax and lay around and get fed and so on, once old enough before fledgling.


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

I can't offer much assistance here, sorry. What is the incubation period for a pigeon egg? I have had bluebird eggs appear damaged just days before they have hatched. I would wonder if there was no fluid leaking if it was damaged at all. Usually, I wait to remove eggs until a few days after all eggs have hatched, but bluebirds can lay up to 6 or 7 in a clutch, so it's easier to tell with them. As far as your other concerns, I will just watch the thread and try to learn something myself- So sorry I can't help more.


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

Well, the white pouter pair has broken the damaged egg (and there were red things and black things coming out of it so i cleand the place up).. Now they arent sitting on the other egg.. Will the baby inside die?? What should i do now?

PLus my capuchines have mated atleast 7 times in the last 16 days but no eggs.. Y?

Thanks to everybody


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hamza,

I'm sorry to hear about the deaths. I'm not sure what is going on here, but if I were you I would at least seperate the hens from males for a time being, until this is all sorted out. Allow the hens to get a well deserved break, continual egg laying will only complicate any issues already going on, and can be a health risk in itself.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Hamza,

Since I live in Germany and PT has many members who live in the contiguous 48 states of the U.S., I often have to put things into proper context, especially when talking brand names versus generic names of foods and medicines, metric measures versus imperial measures, and the like.

Since no one yet has a clear idea of the problem, what I often do in such a situation (for myself, other creatures, and the pigeons I care for, is consider everything in terms of *basic needs*. 

Often I find the source of the problem and the remedy in such a general list. A general list lets you back off from the situation and see it from other perspectives you may have missed. You may be so puzzled about the black specks on the leaf of a tree; you back off and see that the forest is on fire. 

My general list starts off with my basic needs: 

I can go only a few minutes without air.

I need to have reasonable atmospheric conditions. Usually these are within sustainable parameters and we take them for granted, don't think about them except in terms effects over a long period of time. Too little pressure (a vacuum in outer space), too much pressure (deep in the ocean, without proper equipment and adjustment) are not good for me. Too hot (in a fire), too cold (freezing temperatures without adequate clothing). Change these parameters drastically, and I may last only a few seconds before expiration. These parameters usually are thought off in terms of clothing and shelter.

I can go a few days without water, provided I am hydrated to start with and protected from dehydrating situations (high winds on bare skin in a desert, continuous vibrations when I travel by car or airplane). 

I need food, companionship, not too little noise, not too much noise, good clean air, education, friends, family, good government, medicine, doctors, lawyers, and so on. The list gets more esoteric and refined the less immediate the needs are. Can't live without the latest music from the singer you like. Your shirt has to be a certain color. 

Since I'm looking at background, I see Karachi, Pakistan is the world's second most populated city, a megacity of around twenty million. High average temperatures for July (found in Wickipedia) are 33 degrees Celsius, 91.4 degrees Fahrenheit, and the average July lows are 27 deg C or 80.6 deg F, so nothing remarkable there. Monsoon season is July-August. The city has a harbor on the ocean. From _Wickipedia_:



> Karachi possesses a versatile industry. The economy of the city concentrates on Cement plants, corn mills and shipbuilding, in addition, automobile, steel, textiles, chemicals, refined oil, shoes, machines and food are produced in the city.


You have a megacity. Air pollution? I have bad lungs, so think _hard_ before even considering going to a city with air pollution problems. Birds are susceptible to bad air quality. Extra nutrients may be required to sustain their basic needs, to off-set influences of bad air. (The last half year I use a tank of liquid oxygen when I sleep, at two liters a minute. A resource not available or affordable to many others on this planet. I don't pay the total cost individually: socialized health care system). 

Friend came back from India recently. Delhi, and thereabouts. She found the noise levels and hustle and bustle hard to tolerate. Niece (in-law from Belgium) was in India and Pakistan earlier this year, all over. Mumbai (Bombay) was so hot they didn't leave their hotel room, lay sweat-drenched, top-less, on bed in 41 deg C/106 deg F heat.



> As one of the most rapidly growing cities in the world, Karachi faces challenges that are central to many developing metropolises including overcrowding, traffic, pollution, poverty and street crimes.
> 
> Due to high increase in car sales, Karachi faces a very severe problem of excessive traffic. [citation needed] It is estimated that about 4 million vehicles travel on the road in the evening and morning session, resulting in a high number of traffic accidents. -- Wickipedia





> *The level of air pollution in Karachi is estimated to be 20 times higher than World Health Organization standards.* -- Wickpedia.


I suspect many of the feral pigeons here in Cologne do not live out the full extent of their potential life-span due to pollution and urban stresses. They drink water contaminated by oil traces from cars, breathe in diesel fumes from trucks and public transport buses when they hunt for food on the streets, and eat soggy seeds and food leftovers after a rain. But the ferals also can fly away from noisy motorcycle exhaust, the occasional burning building, and such. Pigeons in coops and cages are subject to whatever conditions their keepers provide or permit. The air may be stagnant, hold low-lying fumes. Many air pollutants are heavier than the normal mix of air. The pigeons cannot escape from concentrated mixes of bad air.

Their tolerance for bad air is lower than ours; they developed as creatures of free flight. Pollutants have existed ever since the earth began, with volcanoes, atmospheres with varying degrees of oxygen, and so on. We all have our niches to fill, and birds and humans have slightly different needs which are not always easy to ascertain. 

So, hypothetically, if I feel all my woes are due to the fact that my wife bought the wrong brand of beer, or because my neighbor's dog barks too much, maybe I just need more sleep, or more exercise, or less beer. If the neighbor feels cooing pigeons cause him to lose sleep and miss work and lose his job and therefore not have the money to invest in a hot stock which would have made him rich and able to afford a vacation in Venice where he can feed the pigeons in St. Mark's square, maybe he just needs to smoke less and lose weight and exercise to regain his equanimity. Most of my problems have simple causes for which I am responsible. 

Bad air, bad environment, crowding, inadequate nutrients can be stresses which would or could explain your problems, partially or totally, or have some insidious influence. 

Good luck.

Larry 


shows 

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13825007


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Larry, great post.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

I'm not a great pigeon expert, but I do come from a rural farm kind of place, and one thing I learned from people who raised chickens is that if the eggs break easily or the shells are flimsy or thin, they might not be getting enough calcium in their diet. I'm sure that would be the same for pigeons


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HI Larry, all...



> Since I'm looking at background, I see Karachi, Pakistan is the world's second most populated city, a megacity of around twenty million. High average temperatures for July (found in Wickipedia) are 33 degrees Celsius, 91.4 degrees Fahrenheit, and the average July lows are 27 deg C or 80.6 deg F, so nothing remarkable there. Monsoon season is July-August. The city has a harbor on the ocean.



Lol...

Sounds a lot like Las Vegas...

Only here, Summers ( this one particularly) see highs of 118 F. ( admitted to, in town, with 126 or 128 common in outlieing areas or outskirts of town) and lows of maybe 18 F. ( I have had the Standing Water sitting in the kitchen Sink freeze solid more than once) 

Our versions of the Monsoons tend to occur around now, mid July through August...lots of flooding because the Rain is so heavy and the Water can not drain off fast enough.


Horribly over crowded, badly polluted air, terribly traffic, on and on...


I have various neighbors from Packistan and North Africa, Ethopia and so on, and none of them are worth a damn at tolerating real 'hot' weather.

I redid most of the Roof here during the heat, 116 or so...and those guys were all wilty just doing more or less nothing, and would not even go outdoors if they could help it.

Funny how things turn out to be...

I am amazed the feral Pigeons do as well as they do!

Far as I can tell, if they can just find enough decent food, they do very well here indeed...and as I have mentioned before, some of 'my' ferals are definitely into their mid teens and going strong...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Calcium*

The body uses a lot of calcium to fight infections. It is so important that the body stores a good supply of it in the bones of our skeleton, from which it can make withdrawals as the need arises, and later re-deposit it. I have read that the top of the skull can become so thin during an infection when other sources of calcium are not available, that a hole in the skull can develop. 

Chicks in the egg re-absorb some of the calcium from the eggshell as they develop, thus weakening the eggshell and making it easier for them to pip through. 

I have just come up from seeing a run-over pigeon. He was looking for non-existent food on the street. His/her head was crushed. He was a local pigeon I knew, light gray with two dark bars. Maybe from the nest site across the street. Yesterday the nest site was occupied, just now at 8:45 P.M. not. Of course, I also think it may have been time for a squeaker to leave the nest. Last Saturday afternoon found a turtle dove around the corner on the street (540 grams -- 454 grams = 1 pound), beautiful, with lovely feet, which had been looking for food on the street. Some traces of blood on the neck. Several whole seeds in the mouth, forced up from the crop, near the base of the tongue. I was very tired and a bit run down, didn't feel like doing a more thorough postmortem exam, although he was a healthy, intact specimen. 

Hungry pigeons. Overfed humans.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

> I redid most of the Roof here during the heat, 116 or so...
> 
> -- Phil


So that explains things, Phil.

Being from San Antonio, Texas, even though it took years for me to learn a few basic words in Spanish, two of my favorite words are *siesta* and *manana*. 

"Siesta" is resting, taking it easy, during the heat of the day, which (according to my interpretation) can start around mid-morning and last way past noon the following day.

"Manana" means basically "don't put off doing tomorrow what you can put off doing today."

Larry


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Larry, I'm sorry to hear about "your" street pigeon found dead, as well as the dove. Thanks too for all of the information you always provide us with!!

Hamza, I would follow Treesa's advice and separate cocks and hens for awhile, and let them settle down and stop laying eggs for a bit. Extra calcium is also a good idea, as well as the box described (cut down to make a tray). If the parents still aren't laying on the unbroken egg, you might try placing it with another pair that had eggs if possible. When you put them all back together (if you do separate them for awhile), try replacing their eggs with "dummy" or fake eggs so they can lay on them for a long time, be satisfied, and not risk their health with continuous egg-laying/baby-raising (and keep you pigeon population down as well  ). I hope some of this helps and good luck.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Hamza, I had the same problem. Are your birds in individual cages or in a loft. There could have been a fight between 2 sets of parents and the young are a victim.

What are the breeds you have and what is your loft arrange ment. always have 2 nestboxes for each pair


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

*I'm impressed!!*

First of all, Im impressed with the helping hands here at PT.. Pigeon breeders here arent as supportive as u guys!!

Treesa:
I cannot seperate the hens from the males due to less space.. I had 8 extra "cages" so i put the babies in it.. BUT i did seperate the black pouter and white pouter pair..

Larry:
Amazing what u have written.. The area in which i live in is a seperate community from the main "Karachi" though it is part of Karachi.. It is an army housing scheme, away from pollution and overcrowding and traffic.. The area is green due to the fact that the army has enuf resources to irrigate this area..

But i do think my pigeons are stressed but i dont know why.. They cling on the cage wire as if they wanna fly free but dont leave their cage when i open them.. The quantity they eat is quite low and their poops sometimes watery.. How can i solve this and make this area as stress free as possible? There are no predators but crows which sometimes tend to be a bit annoying and nobody visits them except me.. They are in individual nesting boxes and are set to fly free everyday for 1-3 hours before sunset..

Thanks for your amazing post.. U seem to have done a lot of research.. Currently, temp is lo-28'C and hi-36'C with the humidity level at 80+.. We had devastating rains a week ago and are expecting more.. Its TOO hot.. Temperature reached 42'C 2 weeks ago!! They are bathing everyday..

Sorry for your loss 


Fever:
I am giving them high calcium grit i got from Petsmart and a multi-vitamin suppliment from GSK which also has Calcium Panthonate..

Maryjane:
Its hard for me to seperate the mates but I will surely try the cardboard box idea.. Plenty of them are available..!!

Warriec:
All pigeons have seperate cages with place for 3 nests.. I allow access to other nests once babies are above 10days..

Breeds kept:
1 pair of Indian Fantails, 1 pair of Black Lahore, 1 pair of Red/Brown Capuchines, 1 pair of white Pomerian pouters (thats what i think), 1 pair of saxon pouters and 1 pair of english pouters and all are seperate.. They get to mingle during feeding and bathing time..

Well, hope that clears everything up.. Thnx again.. More suggestions are always welcome..


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