# HELP URGENT Lumpy's Crop Has Ruptured



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I just went to tube feed Lumpy and his wound was full of seeds.

I cleaned them out. As the last tube feed went ok I decided to carry on and tube feed again as I assumed the tube would go past the hole where the seeds were spilling out.

The hole is full of Kaytee now.

I don't know what to do for him.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Have you got Helen's telephone number?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Always thought that might happen eventually. Lemme' go read whatever's there on the other thread (been away the last 24 hours).

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

No only email.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... don't suppose you can take some more pictures and post?

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Well, Pidgey is here.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

WIll give it a go.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It'd be a good time to review this thread and look at the pictures, by the way:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You see, now we're probably at a stage of management that's likely to take awhile. The lump was growing, but not in the same way as a malignant tumor. All of that stuff is dead material, mostly dead white blood cells. Another way of saying that is: "inflammatory debris". As it was expanding because the body kept pumping it in there, other tissues were eventually just giving way due to the increasing pressure, kinda' like bedsores. 

Anyway, now it's going to be a matter of both the hole in the esophagus and the hole in the skin closing up. The worst-case scenario would be for the esophagus/crop to get severed so that there was a loose end dangling somewhere below the jawline and another end (we're talking a fully-open hose here) protruding up from below without connecting at all.

Therefore... we somehow need to assess what the actual situation is and we need to be extra careful putting in feeding tubes and that sort of thing. Smaller meals more often is very much better here. And, by the way, Kaytee (formula, regardless of the brand) isn't as good in these situations as just plain peas and corn.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm loading some pics onto Photobucket.
Not sure they'll be much use as it's dark here now and the lighting isn't good.

Back in a mo.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Going on, if there's just a hole in the esophagus/crop, then it'll leak but it'll still heal in time. As long as it can be identified properly, a vet could stitch it up and that would help it close. Now, gotta' tell ya'... that doesn't always work so well on birds that have had the problem for several days--it works much better on a rather fresh wound. You'll understand what I mean after you've read Pierpont's story. Hers opened up in fairly short order and then it was just a pain-in-the-rear fight every few days to figure out what to do next. However, there have been plenty of birds on here who have managed to heal themselves up with virtually no stitching in time. I'll go grab another story that I can think of. Feefo's got a story or two that way, too.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Believe it or not, a bear got this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/hurt-pigeon-north-jersey-29709.html

That one was far more recent so it resolved more quickly. Incidentally, even if the esophagus were severed, it'd be possible to fix it. Tougher, but possible.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I gave him 20 mls this afternoon and that stayed put.

Same amount tonight, and that spilled out.

I mentioned to the vet this morning that I'd found a couple of small seeds in with the debris I cleaned out, that was worrying me then before the lump even came out.

I don't think these are showing anything to help.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you know how they can hold their heads way up high (like standing straight up) or sit reclined with their heads down pretty close to their shoulders? The question is where that thing is in relation to the actual jaw just below the eye. Pictures can be pretty deceiving that way, sometimes. Will he eat seeds on his own?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Yes he's been eating seeds since he lost the lump.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Feefo's got a story or two that way, too.


 Nooti's story really, I just ended up with the healed pigeon, but it is contained within this thread, which is also relevant:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=30739&referrerid=560

If Lumpy needs surgery, choose your vet carefully, I would be inclined to take him up to Blackburn.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If seeds and water are (mostly) going down and coming out the back end in the right way, then all that's probably required is just good management. That's going to mean keeping the inside of that hole clean and free of debris. Now that the plug is out, it should surprise you how fast it can heal, given how horrible they usually look.

It is best to give them oral medications a half-hour or so before you let them eat and drink, though.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm just loading some more pics of the position.
Will read these posts while they load.
I think I can see where the main rupture is, I'll point it out when I get the pictures up.

He's doing good poops at the mo, but there probably from what he ate before this opened up.

All the seeds he ate last have come out. I gave him his synulox tablet and hopefully they've stayed in. I have a syringe of Baytril still to give him tonight and would have placed it down his throat just past the airway. Should I still do this?

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pierpont ate a lot more than actually stayed in during that particular time. Some made it down and that's what she lived on. That, by the way, is what I meant about peas and corn--they're probably going to stay in a little better or make less problems when they don't than the littler seeds.

Don't what what kind of feeding tube you're using, but you have to be careful to not open a crop wound up further with them when you're sticking them in. Sometimes, the tube (or crop needle) can run up against the hole and catch it just right to make the hole bigger. Depending on how many hands you've got (somebody to help), you might be able to see the hole in the crop (or esophagus--I think that the hole on this guy is a little higher up) with the feeding tube running down through it.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Don't know if these help with location.

The cotton bud is at the level of the top of the cavity left from the abcess.
















The cotton bud shows the position where I think the hole is.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To medicate him, I'd probably tend to wait for an hour or so after he's eaten and drank anything. That way, they'll tend to stay in better.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is that where you're thinking the hole is:



Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Whatever happens I'm not doing any more tube feeding on him.

I should have stuck with the peas if I'd known there was the slightest hole.
Nothing came out with the first feed, but he hadn't shown any interest in eating seeds until after he had his first tube feed. Then when he started to eat seeds these came out, so the tube might have done the damage as you said.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Is that where you're thinking the hole is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes possibly.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Might be a good idea to get a count on the seeds. For instance, give him 20 corn kernels and 20 peas and see how many leak out. Might have to do that test when he's hungry again. If 50% go down and 50% come out, then... it kinda' shows how feedings have to go!

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What's he weigh these days?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> What's he weigh these days?
> 
> Pidgey


Yesterday he was 410gms

Sorry just a few more questions so I know what to do when you're not around to ask. 

Would it be best not to flush and just clean out with a bud for now?

Also should I not leave water for him overnight?

I'll not put any seeds in with him so he'll most likely be hungry in the morning then I can try the count.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, he's got plenty of weight to weather this particular storm, then.

I'd probably just keep it clean with a Q-Tip and keep an eye on it.

Does he drink A LOT of water? Some of it's going to leak out that hole and down his chest, which is messy but not really that much of a concern. Keeping him from drinking the water just makes it easier to get and keep medicine down him when you need to.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A relatively small hole in the crop can seal up within a day. Won't be real strong, but can seal. It's possible that the frightening part will be over in a couple of days or so. With Pierpont, it just turned into _work_ after a few days.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

To be honest I don't know if he drinks much, I've not actually seen him. He doesn't do anything while I'm watching mind.

I still need to get this syringe of Baytril down him tonight, so I'll keep the water away until morning.

So I can do no more tonight for him apart from his last meds by the sounds of it.

Thank you so much for all this tonight.

Janet

I'm just going to go over Pierpoint's story before I go to bed to make myself feel better, and a stiff drink might help aswell!!
Cheers.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not a problem, all a part of our friendly service with a smile!

Anyhow, yeah, let's see what tomorrow brings.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've just got to say he's actually lying down at the front of the cage looking out at me for the first time since he came. Almost looks comfortable and relaxed.

J


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, this is a bit of unwelcomed excitement, I must say. Pidgey, as I read through this thread, the thought came to mind how fortunate this forum is to have such experienced members here to offer their support and knowledge to people in crisis. I can only imagine the comfort Janet must feel knowing she has people like you to lean on.

Karyn


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Thank goodness, feefo called Pidgey out of sabbatical.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, this case ain't over yet and bad things can still happen. It can get pretty lonely sometimes when you're stewing over a bad one in the middle of the night and don't know what to do, I'll grant you that. It's also pretty disconcerting when they produce those big canker-like balls--those things are nasty!

Pidgey


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Jenet..............I just caught up with this thread.

Sending healing thoughts and prayers your way along with a big hug.

Louise


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Ok, this probably isn't as bad as it sounds. Going back in my memory I had a pidge once with a hole in the crop, think he'd been shot, can't really remember, but I remember the treatment. It was nil by mouth for a few days and 40mls of Hartmanns fluids per 24hrs injected sub cut. That gave the crop a chance to heal and the wound closed. Hre made a full recovery and I got a feeling Cynthia has the pidge now. My memory fades and I can't remember who it was but he was left with reduced crop capacity. Cynthia will probably know.
I don't have a problem with suturing under these circumstances but If a vet wanted to, I would recommend one stitch to close that hole in the crop lining - (the crop is actually 2 bags, one inside the other so each membrane would need a stitch) and the rest left to heal from inside out.
I am going to Leicester today, I shall text you my mobile number so you have it and we'll probably talk later on. The weather does not look great, ice and snow on roads, no snow forecast so shouldn't be a problem. Just take a bit longer that's all. We are thinking it will take us about 3 1/2 hours to get there. 
Will be in touch


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> *Going back in my memory I had a pidge once with a hole in the crop, think he'd been shot, can't really remember, but I remember the treatment.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> That was Josefina. This is from your account at the time|:
> _
> ...


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I remember that story vividly Cynthia. An amazing recovery.

I have cleaned out the hole again this morning and there was still some pieces of matter coming away. I just am not sure where the actual damage is and so have not attempted to feed him today so as to let it settle.

I have made contact with Nooti as she has made the trip down here and is about an hours drive from me. I am going to try and get Lumpy to her if various complications with transport at my end can be sorted out.
I'll let you know what happens.

I'm just packing his little suitcase and pyjamas in case he is able to make the trip. 

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Funny you should say that... Lin had found a small toy plastic suitcase with a BigBird sticker on it that she used to pack with safflower seeds when we took one of our pigeons on a trip with us...

I _never_ said we were sane people!

Pidgey


----------



## sesamestick (Dec 4, 2008)

Hey Pidgey, if you are an example of insanity.... I wish the Good Lord had given me some of that!!


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Funny you should say that... Lin had found a small toy plastic suitcase with a BigBird sticker on it that she used to pack with safflower seeds when we took one of our pigeons on a trip with us...
> 
> I _never_ said we were sane people!
> 
> Pidgey


LOL

If I was ever sane before I found pigeons, I'm certainly not now.

Have just given his feet a clean to make sure he makes a good first impression. I'd have brushed his teeth if he had any aswell.

He's quite jumpy this afternoon, tried to fly out of my hands for the first time, reckon he knows he's on the move.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

sesamestick said:


> Hey Pidgey, if you are an example of insanity.... I wish the Good Lord had given me some of that!!


I've come to the conclusion that sanity's highly overrated... 

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Just returned from meeting Nooti at motorway services and have handed Lumpy over to her care.

I'm sure Nooti will be able to fill us in as to her final diagnosis once she's had a chance to check him out fully but the initial thoughts were that it was Trich all along.

I just have to say thank goodness again for all the help I've had from Nooti and you wonderful folks as if it was down to the two vets I've seen so far, according to the first, Lumpy had a bad abcess, which wasn't affecting his crop, (and she had seen it for real), then yesterday the other one would have stitched him up and I would never have known that all his food was spilling out inside. Frightening thought. 

I do envy folks that have access to actual avian vets, but for most like me we can only be eternally grateful for the help and advice found on here.

Thanks Nooti for taking him on and to Lumpy, I'm willing you a good recovery, ( then maybe you can have a slightly more suitable name now that you're actually lumpless ! 

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Once again, well done Janet and thank you Nooti! I hope Lumpy makes a full recovery.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I think you have done a super job with Lumpy, bless you for your efforts. Wishing Lumpy a speed recovery in Nooti's care, thanks as well Nooti.

Karyn


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Janet, I think you have done a super job with Lumpy, bless you for your efforts. Wishing Lumpy a speed recovery in Nooti's care, thanks as well Nooti.
> 
> Karyn


And thanks for your input too. 

Janet


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well we're home and he's settled down in a hospital cage and under a low lamp. Had a good exam - there's trich down there but that doesn't concern me. What is worrying is that the edge of the gaping hole has more or less healed so it won't close naturally. However I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Metronidazole is what he needs now and that should clear up any residual trich. Then we can look at closing the hole - from the inside out. The hole in the crop is tiny and will close on it's own.
Had a busy day so off to bed now. catch you all later.
PS I remember Star! what a gutsy bird that was. Can hardly believe the bird is a flyer after that injury. Remember the one who'd been shot and had a healed hole right through the muscle. I posted photos of the bird with a syringe sticking out of either side of the neck/breast. 
Cynthia, your number has disappeared off my phone. was going to text you on way home but couldn't. Any chance you can text me so I can store your number again please?
Bedtime now.......


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Janet, you did a fantastic job with this little guy. I wish him the best of luck and a speedy recovery.

Reti


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Remember the one who'd been shot and had a healed hole right through the muscle. I posted photos of the bird with a syringe sticking out of either side of the neck/breast.


Bugsey Malone 

I lost your number when my mobile died. Will pm you mine.


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Thought it was Bugsy! 
Poor Beggar had been shot twice - Thought it was time he was taken out of circulation. Didn't think it would be third time lucky! 
Have just text you my number
Cheers


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, have been following this thread with bated breath!!

SOOOOO glad to hear that Lumpy is alive and will, hopefully, recover well!!

Janet, you did SO GOOD! I know you lost some sleep worrying! Lumpy was soooo lucky to have you!

Nooti, I'm sure Lumpy will fully recover in your care and I, along with many others, will be watching and waiting for good news updates!

Sending *HEALING* *LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES! * 

Shi


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Janet.............You did an amazing job with Lumpy. I know how scary these situations become. Thank God for all the help we receive here. There are so many birds that would not be alive today if not for this site.

I am sure Lumpy will be able to recover fully under Nootie's watchful eye. Plese keep us posted.

Regards,
Louise


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Just a quick update. Pij, (hate to call him lumpy now) is fine this morning but there is a fresh growth of Trich which confirms my diagnosis. So he has now had a full dose of metronidazole both orally and topically. 
He has also eaten a packet of pigeon mix and none has leaked. The hole should seal itself and could be doing that now.
The wound itself is very clean. All credit to Janet, she has done her utmost to nurse him in the best possible way and he owes his life to her.
I hope I can now maintain the improvement, but I don't have any concerns at the moment.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks for that update Nooti.

I know you were hoping it wasn't Trich although you were pretty sure as soon as you gave him the once over in the car.
So even more reason to be grateful he did come to you as the vets had me believe it was an injury abcess and therefore if he'd had stayed with me he wouldn't have been getting the correct meds and the Trich could have only spread.
I suppose there is still a possibility it may have affected other parts of the body if it is still developing that quickly in this area?

I can almost be glad his crop did rupture that night so at least we were alerted to the fact it wasn't going to be quite such a smooth recovery after the lump came out. The Trich would have just taken hold again if left.

Still can't believe how things turn out sometimes, with the fact you were coming down this way at the right time to be able to take him...spooky 

Please feel free to suggest a new name if something springs to mind. Not 100% sure of his sex as I looked at the two female homers I have here today and he is no bigger then them, in fact Bandy, (a hen), is definitely much bigger and Snowy is about the same, (only fatter).

I called him Lumpy on the spur of the moment when the vets insisted I register him before they'd see him/her, so when they asked his name all I could think of was his lump!! Easier to spell that Quasimodo. 

Anyway, good news his seeds stayed in this time, he can start to put some meat on his bones now.

Glad he's doing ok,

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nooti comes up with some great names. I think it was she that came up with "Almost Lunch" for a bird a loooooonnnnggg time ago that suffered a hawk attack.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=172858&postcount=6

Pidgey


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Just where do you find these memories!! lol
Fraid my inspiration got spirited away. Nothing on the tip of my tongue at the moment.
He is doing fine, nothing dramatic to report. He is eating and drinking fine, wound looks good and medication gone down without a hitch.
Janet has done the bulk of the work.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Nooti said:


> Just where do you find these memories!! lol
> Fraid my inspiration got spirited away. Nothing on the tip of my tongue at the moment.


Fraid I'm not very inspirational when it comes to names as you can gather, poor soul being landed with Lumpy, as if he needed reminding of his affliction!!

Now AL was truely inspirational, love that one..

Still thinking of him, nice to hear nothing drastic is happening ATM. 

(Lucky the amount of snow we're getting tonight didn't fall at the weekend, don't think you'd have got down).

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, we've kinda' had more than our share of that white, fluffy, "global warming" stuff, too...

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Yeah, we've kinda' had more than our share of that white, fluffy, "global warming" stuff, too...
> 
> Pidgey


LOL, my OH just made that very same comment tonight.
'Someone is bound to blame this cold weather on Global Warming' 

Janet


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Cold weather or not, I have to brave it today and head for Cumbria. I did a wildlife documentary in the spring and summer on the Lancaster canal. I am now in the throes of "Winter on the Lankey" so my boots and gloves are at the ready. Tried to go yesterday to follow up on a buzzard who made a kill on Monday and kept going back to it harrassed by the local crows, but the weather beat me back. Likely the rabbit will all have been eaten now, but I may still catch up with the buzzards.
So Pij has been fed, watered and medicated and my hubby is in charge of him today! Wish me luck.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Wish me luck.*

I do !!! Hope you managed the trip safely and found what you went for.


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well a mixed day, equipment broke down, the goosander I was filming decided to fly away as soon as I hit the record button, but a moorhen was more obliging - oh, and I came home with an injured tawny owl.
Pij survived the day without me as well!


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

A pretty uneventful day then !!!   

Lucky for Tawny you made it today. Hope he's ok.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nooti said:


> Well a mixed day, equipment broke down, the goosander I was filming decided to fly away as soon as I hit the record button, but a moorhen was more obliging - oh, and I came home with an injured tawny owl.
> Pij survived the day without me as well!


Some folks just don't like their pictures taken, Nooti!

Pidgey


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

A quick update on Nameless. The hole is slowly closing up, have tried for ages to attach a pic but nothing happens when I click manage attachments. Just comes up as error on page. Pop up blocker disabled etc but nothing doing so can only describe things I'm afraid.
It scabs over and I pull the scab away on a daily basis. This is to stop the trich building up underneath and causing another lump. Trich is still evident but it does take a good couple of weeks or so of treatment before seeing a dramatic difference. He is on 2ml Metronidazole twice daily, a high dose but I think it's called for in this case.
He/she is eating and drinking well and getting annoyed at his continuous incarceration. That tells me he is feeling much better!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Nooti,

2ml sounds a lot if you are accustomed to using Flagyl S or a crushed tablet in water ...but am I right in thinking that you are using an IV sterile "baggie"? 

Either way, just for the record, what is the concentration of the dilution you are using and how many mg of metronidazole are there in 1 ml of it?


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Cynthia
You're right, it's a sterile baggie. Concentration is 5mg per 1ml. Avian dose is 10mg/kl IM q12h which equates to .45ml IM inj BID for a 450g bird. However since trich is in the throat it is easier to dose orally and coat the trich with Metro and the avian dose PO is 20-50mg/kl q12h which equates to 1.9ml-4.5ml BID for 450g bird if my calculations are correct, so 2ml BID is a low dose if given orally. 
I may increase the dose if trich doesn't clear quickly


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Managed to sort the configs out so can upload a pic - please see hole on Nameless now. Doing very well I think


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Doing very well I think


I must agree, it looks like it is coming along very nicely, great job.

Karyn


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Nooti said:


> A quick update on Nameless.
> He/she is eating and drinking well and getting annoyed at his continuous incarceration. That tells me he is feeling much better!


That's encouraging then, he was very quiet whilst here so good to know he's got some spark back.

Yes the hole is much improved, it was hard to imagine it closing initially.
That Trich certainly isn't going to shrivel up and die without a fight by the sounds of it.

Still so grateful he's in your hands and it's your brain and not mine doing the dosage calculations. 

Thanks for the update Nooti, I'm willing him along.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Nameless"?

That's a heckuva' name...

Pidgey


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

That's a heckuva' name...


It was either that or NIFAN = No Inspiration For A Name!


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

it was hard to imagine it closing initially

Janet, I am a great believer in letting Nature do most of the work. She's getting a helping hand with the Metro, but pigeons especially are natural healers. I don't think he/she will need veterinary interference.
As to letting me do the calculations, maths is not my strong point and often when faced with figures my brain will crash and I'll need to reboot! So if anyone spots a mistake please feel free to point it out. Sometimes I can make big bloomers but 2mls BID sounds about right for Metro.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Mmmmm, Nooti...

NIFAN/NiFan/NiFAN sounds good to me...for now...gots "history!" 

IF NIFAN turns out to be a hen, maybe NifanA???  

All kidding aside...wishing you BOTH WELL! I know you are watching and waiting too!

Sending HEALING Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Nooti said:


> That's a heckuva' name...
> 
> 
> It was either that or NIFAN = No Inspiration For A Name!


It's a start. I like Shi's version if he's a she of Nifana !
He'll have to show some more personality traits first to get something moving.

I should have taken a full body photo to post and get some help.
He's very light grey, white wings and has a white band across the crown of his head like a halo.

Halo?  Even Metro !!

Told you I wasn't very good at this. Cynthia's got awards for best names.
Perhaps we'll stick with Nifan a while longer and see what he comes up with him/herself.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

ROFL...Janet...

Rule of thumb: when in doubt, ASK the PIGEON...

Love and Hugs

Shi


----------

