# My pigeons are dying.. help!



## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

OK, so I am having a serious problem with my fancy pigeons.

They all appear healthy, active, eating, drinking and flying well. They are pooping normally, breeding well.

But I am regularly getting a few birds suddenly get lethargic and die within a day or just a few hours. This have been happening for a few months. 

Its always the young birds that are just coming into breeding age. I read about young bird sickness.. but it does not sound like that as the birds have no obvious disease symptoms. 

An infected bird will be 100 percent healthy one day.. then I will notice it just sitting still.. like a zombie. They are not acting sick.. not fluffed up, eyes wide open, alert, breathing normally, pooping normally etc. But after a few house they get slower and slower and get kind of stiff, and stop moving.. then give up and are dead!!!

I examined the bodies and they are a good weight, clean vent, no discharge from anywhere, clean sleek feathers. 

I can not understand it and its very upsetting. 

I also keep bantam chickens in another coop.... and they have this same disease and show the same lethargy and no other symptoms.

All my adult birds are fine... and the young in the nest and fledged birds are also great. But when they grow to start cooing and mating its when it happens. The chickens start to die the same stage.. when they just start to lay eggs.

I suspected coccidiosis, but there are no bloody poops and I keep everything really clean and dry. There is lots of sunlight in the coops.. I live in Thailand and its very hot.. and its the dry season so no muddy puddles about. I am at a loss as to what is going on. 

PS I treated the chickens with a coccidiosis medication twice already but it made no difference. 

Thanks.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If it is just youngsters it is hard to say. Can you send for a blood test for things? Some of the tests are not very expensive. Also could you pls post a photo of the birds and droppings? Am sorry to hear of the troubles with the poor birds.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

At this point it would be best to take one of your sick birds and get this diagnosed, as this will only continue otherwise. Coccidiosis ( they would have watery poops)would not cause instant death, unless accompanied by another disease.

Have your birds been vaccinated for paratyphoid, salmonellas? Any other innoculations?
Have they been wormed?
What kind of floor does your coop have? is your coop predator and rodent/roach proof? What kind of cleaners are you using? Do you remove their food and water and clean containers& feeders? What do the birds eat?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The rate at which they get sick and die does seem like a viral infection. 

The 'young bird sickness' doesn't usually kill them all, but you may want to look at this article on adenovirus in pigeons and see if anything seems familiar:

http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/loft/articles/adeno-virus.html


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They are probably sick for a bit before you are noticing it. Hard to tell if any are barely eating if they are all in together. Sometimes they will go down to the feeder and peck at seed, but actually eat very little. Have you checked their throats? Do you notice if any are drinking more than normally?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Skyeking said:


> At this point it would be best to take one of your sick birds and get this diagnosed, as this will only continue otherwise. Coccidiosis ( they would have watery poops)would not cause instant death, unless accompanied by another disease.
> 
> Have your birds been vaccinated for paratyphoid, salmonellas? Any other innoculations?
> Have they been wormed?
> What kind of floor does your coop have? is your coop predator and rodent/roach proof? What kind of cleaners are you using? Do you remove their food and water and clean containers& feeders? What do the birds eat?


^ All good questions.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Can you get them to a vet? Would ask about adenovirus and circovirus, given their young age. Hope it is something treatable and that they are ok soon.


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

If for some reason you can't get them to a veterinarian, I would suggest starting treatment for canker. Canker affects both chickens and pigeons. Most cases of canker have no visible indicators, but affects the internal organs.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jr Brown said:


> If for some reason you can't get them to a veterinarian, I would suggest starting treatment for canker. Canker affects both chickens and pigeons. Most cases of canker have no visible indicators, but affects the internal organs.


I think reading the first post will show that canker doesn't cause whatever is happening there - sudden death in multiple birds of a particular age group.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

HI. I will try to answer your questions. Thanks everyone for helping me so quickly.

1. My birds are not vaccinated for anything.
2. They have never been wormed.
3. Floor of coop is deep layer of dry sand. 
4. Coop is completely animals proof.. no birds or rodents can get in. Its made of sheet metal and fine wire mesh with concrete base.
5. I don't use any cleaners. I scrape out the nest boxes and couple times a week sieve the sand to take out dry poops. Everything in the coop is bone dry. No dust as a lot of ventilation, no feathers as I get them out each day. Its very clean and no smell at all. 
6. I feed 2 times a day and remove the feeders after about 10 minutes after they are full. I have one big water dispenser designed for chickens.. so no dirty can get into it. I change the water each day and clean out the container so no algae in it. Its on a raised brick platform to keep it off the floor.
7. The pigeons eat mixed grains, dry green peas, chicken layer pellets, pigeon mixed grit and oyster shell. Peanuts are given as treats and when I train the birds to come back into the coop on call. Add apple cider vinegar to the water several times a week.

NOTES

Dead birds are all in very good body condition....plump... so that is why I did not think it was parasites like worms.. as they are not skinny. 

Droppings are normal... mostly firm and the brown and white colour. Only in the final day when they stop eating and drinking the droppings get just white and flat. The last bird that died did have dark orange / brown flat poops.. but only in the last few hours before it died.

The feathers are all clean and no mess or green dirty bottoms. 

No canker in the mouth and the throats look normal. In fact everything seems normal. They don't even get puffed up like sick birds usually do. They just get slower and stiffen up and die.. and don't seem in any pain or distress. Its very weird.

I can not take my birds to a vet. I live in rural Thailand... vets here are very basic. They can't do blood tests on birds... I once took a sick chicken in to a couple of different vets. They only really know about dogs and cats. I could take one to the university.. but I think that will be expensive.


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

John_D said:


> I think reading the first post will show that canker doesn't cause whatever is happening there - sudden death in multiple birds of a particular age group.


What does?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jr Brown said:


> What does?


Paratyphoid is one possibility - fine one day, dead the next - and a viral infection (which may be combined with e-coli) is another, but not necessarily affecting only birds at the stage of development stated by the original poster.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

What can someone do for paratyphoid or E. coli? I would feel lost without access to a vet. Is there a mail order place that could analyze poop or blood samples? Something like this:
http://www.avianexoticlab.com/ http://www.avianbiotech.co.uk/
Jak, do you have any university near you where they train vets or doctors? Maybe you could ask them to do a necropsy or tests at a lower rate as a teaching exercise? 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_of_veterinary_medicine
Was hoping maybe they could help. 
Also do you have any racing clubs, groups of people who race or show birds who may have encountered the symptoms also in your area and have any suggestions? Just trying to brainstorm.
http://www.worldthailandpigeon.com/2015/
Or maybe poultry vets or resources used by chicken breeders?
Not sure what tests would demonstrate what disease is causing your losses. John_D and JrBrown, what kind of samples would show this please? Fecal, blood, necropsy? Not sure how to detect a viral disease. Jak, wish there were resources closer to you. Wish I could offer more help.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Around here, teaching places are much higher in price. I would start with a dropping sample, and maybe throat swab. If nothing, then blood test. Bringing in one bird who is looking off would be the thing to do.

Could be anything..........Streptococcus, e-coli and many others. Can't tell from symptoms. Would need to treat with something that covers most of these things. Something wide spectrum that would cover most things. Without a vet, that's all you can do.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Viral diseases are usually determined from (a) clinical symptoms, (b) blood tests or (c) necropsy.

Dropping samples more than a few hours old won't show canker, but may well show up overload of other parasites. 


If I had to guess, I'd go for an extremely virulent form of virus similar to the young bird sickness. As Jak is in Thailand, I have no idea what form of viruses may be experienced there, or if a virus from which pigeons in the USA often recover could be far more deadly to Jak's birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It could be bacterial or something common and easily treated. That's why I suggested to start with the dropping sample or swab for canker. Don't know that it's viral. You have to start somewhere, so starting with the most common makes sense. 
If viral, not much you can do for it, but if bacterial or canker or something treatable, then not treating is wasting time.
So start with a wide spectrum antibiotic and see if it helps, and treating for canker would be a good idea, as often that will come into play when a bird is down with something else. 
As I said, a good vet would be the best thing, but without that, then you have to do something. 
We are not there, and seeing the birds or what they are doing, ie eating drinking or whatever, so hard to reallly get a feeling for what is going on. One person would say they were fine the day before, and another person may notice that they are drinking more and not eating much. So hard to know. Can't always go by that.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jak, could you please post photos of some of the birds and their droppings?


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

In this situation I would agree that you need to start treatment immediately.

Amoxicillin is widely available, follow the directions on the container if you can get some of it.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks again everyone. After reading all your advise carefully I am going to go to a farm shop and buy one medication that will cover a wide variety of bacterial infections, then see what happens.

Its strange how my chickens are also having the same disease at the same life stage. Would I be right in thinking it could not be the same virus affecting 2 different bird species? I hope so... as a virus would be hard to treat. I think the same bacteria could affect different species.... so hope a broad spectrum antibiotic will help all the birds.

Finally about de worming. Could worms cause this problem with my pigeons and chickens? Would birds loose condition and weight if they had a lot of worms? 

PS. I went to a huge animal hospital in the city with one of my bird and was told they don't treat birds... and the huge shop with masses of medications they had NOTHING for birds!!!! It took me 2 hours round trip for that visit... so I was rather annoyed!!!!

I researched on the net.. and my city has no racing clubs or even pigeon fanciers societies. I would have to go down to Bangkok which would entail an airplane flight... or very long train journey.... so that is out.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sorry you are having so much trouble in trying to locate meds. That's terrible.
Yes, worms could make them loose condition and weight.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jak, am so sorry you are having such a hard time. Hope your birds are better soon. Where did you get them? Is there a breeder or someone like that who,sells them there? Sounds very hard there, without vets or meds.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

I started with 4 Old Dutch Capuchine pairs which someone brought up from Bangkok as he was coming to my city to get birds he could not get in Bangkok. He swapped them for some of my fancy chickens.

I then got one pair of white king pigeons from a small pet shop in the city.. but since then.. many years ago.. they have never had any more.

I also caught 1 young white feral pigeon from the city (if was covered in oil) and nursed it back to health... then I was able to cross it with my white kings to get some birds that resembled white homers.

All this was about 7 years ago... all my birds are descended from those first few. All my original birds are still alive and well. When ever a got too many I was able to sell them to my friends who are fellow bird fanciers. 

I had a mass lot die about 3 years ago due to salmonella (showed all the symptoms and had very bad green slimy droppings). After that (I lost nearly all my flock).. I stopped breeding for a year.. which was also good as it was the time I had to go into rented house while we build our new house.

Since then no problems until now. 

Off to the city first thing tomorrow to get some poultry broad spectrum antibiotics. 

Do you think I should also worm the birds? Will that medication harm any squabs in the nests? 

Thanks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm afraid it would harm the babies. They shouldn't be wormed till 4 months old. I mean unless a bird a couple of months old _had_ to be wormed, then they shouldn't be. Wouldn't worm with babies in the nests.
Any meds you give could affect the babies too.


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