# Red Grizzle???



## hartattack (May 11, 2010)

I have a young pigeon almost 7 weeks old and it appears to be a grizzle BUT the cock is a red mottle and the hen is a black self. How is this possible? Did I have a mutation and anyone know what the chance of getting a mutation is?

Thanks


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## ThePigeonShack (Jun 14, 2012)

Post some pics


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## hartattack (May 11, 2010)

teocallipittz said:


> Post some pics


Ok, when I have the chance, maybe later today but is it possible and how likely?


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

Impossible to tell without seeing a picture of the bird. Cannot comment on what we can't see.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

hartattack said:


> I have a young pigeon almost 7 weeks old and it appears to be a grizzle BUT the cock is a red mottle and the hen is a black self. How is this possible? Did I have a mutation and anyone know what the chance of getting a mutation is?
> 
> Thanks


Your red mottle is possibly recessive red grizzle, with the rec. red masking another color, (ie ash, blue or brown, maybe non spread also) and your black could be heterozygous spread. Non spread grizzle offspring are possible from this combo.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah I was thinking the same, You may also get spread non grizzles and non spreads showing the base pattern, Bar, check etc so will be an interesting pair that could potentially throw all sorts.


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## hartattack (May 11, 2010)

I will get a picture up tomorrow, no camera right now. I have a question, what does recessive red mottle look like as compared to red? Thanks for putting up with my questions


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

There are two types of red, ash red (more variable in expression with, more or less, ashy tail bar and flights) and recessive red (generally more uniform red color with more red in tail and flights).Red mottles are always rec. red, so If your description is accurate then yours is rec. red, however, it may be masking ash red. Rec. red is much like rec. white in that it masks (covers) another color in the bird of which the bird is genetically capable of producing in its offspring if its mate doesn't possess the rec. trait.

Rec. red mottle is basically a red splash in appearance, however, it can be produced by a variety of different genetic factors. Ash red splashes are typically not classified as mottles, and are a genetic combination of grizzle and spread on ash with other possible modifiers like dirty and bronze to darken the ash red pigment.

I realize that this answer is vague but hope it helps a little. Maybe someone else can generate pics.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

tmaas, Why do ash red splashes need spread in the mix? What does it do to the phenotype, Also is would adding dirty and bronze over ash spread almost be counterproductive.


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## hartattack (May 11, 2010)

tmaas said:


> There are two types of red, ash red (more variable in expression with, more or less, ashy tail bar and flights) and recessive red (generally more uniform red color with more red in tail and flights).Red mottles are always rec. red, so If your description is accurate then yours is rec. red, however, it may be masking ash red. Rec. red is much like rec. white in that it masks (covers) another color in the bird of which the bird is genetically capable of producing in its offspring if its mate doesn't possess the rec. trait.
> 
> Rec. red mottle is basically a red splash in appearance, however, it can be produced by a variety of different genetic factors. Ash red splashes are typically not classified as mottles, and are a genetic combination of grizzle and spread on ash with other possible modifiers like dirty and bronze to darken the ash red pigment.
> 
> I realize that this answer is vague but hope it helps a little. Maybe someone else can generate pics.


I didn't know that all red mottles were really recessive red. I have heard that mottle is a type of grizzle on spread...is that correct?

So by looking at the color again, can one tell the difference between recessive red vs ash red? Thanks again and pictures should be up by 6pm tonight


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

NZ Pigeon said:


> tmaas, Why do ash red splashes need spread in the mix? What does it do to the phenotype, Also is would adding dirty and bronze over ash spread almost be counterproductive.


Ash red splashes do not need spread if tiger grizzle is involved, but spread is necessary for other grizzles to express a splash effect.

Yes, dirty and bronze would be counterproductive in an attempt to produce the lavender effect of spread ash, but in this thread we're discussing the red expression thereof, I think, maybe, possibly.


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## hartattack (May 11, 2010)

Here's a pix


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Its a hard one, I have seen ash red birds that are het rec red with this amount of red in the flights, certainly looks grizzle and a wee bit of stress marking too. I am not by any means certain but from what I have seen in my loft it is maybe, ash red T pattern, Het rec red, and het grizzle. with dirty/multiple dirty genes and bronzes. 

Just a guess though and with the pair you have you would need to breed hundreds of birds keeping good records to work out their and this birds genotype.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

It has a horn beak. And shows recessive red. and some white. I believe as it moults you will see more white. And it will be a mottle colored bird. The faded red shows more milky in it That is why I believe it will turn out mottled. I see no grizzle effect there at all.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Here's my two cents worth of opinion. It looks typical rec. red grizzle to me and will likely molt to a splash phenotype. 

A pic of the parents would still be fun to see and speculate on.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

hartattack said:


> I didn't know that all red mottles were really recessive red. I have heard that mottle is a type of grizzle on spread...is that correct?
> 
> So by looking at the color again, can one tell the difference between recessive red vs ash red? Thanks again and pictures should be up by 6pm tonight


The proper coloration for a "mottle" is to be a solid colored bird with white splashed on wing shield, head and neck only. The tail, flights and underside are not supposed to have any white feathers. Ash reds can be mottled but would not be considered classic red mottles because the tail, flights and underside would be ash rather than red.

Most of the time mottle is a type of grizzle, however, there are some rec. red mottles that are not grizzle. They are "agate", and they confuse me, so if someone else can explain agates I'd be entertained.

Red bars and checks are ash red, having ashy colored tail and flights. Rec. red doesn't allow bar and check pattern to be visible, most of the time, and are a more uniform red color throughout the entire bird, most of the time. There are some "unimproved" rec. reds that do show pattern and tail band when spread is not present.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

And just to add there are often het rec reds bred from top rec reds that look better than poor rec reds, I have bred a lot this year in my rec red frillback projects, Well my flatmates but I am involved. Ash red based with bronze, dirty and het rec red aswell as het grizzle frillback crosses look a lot like this bird, But I agree its most likely rec red.

Tmass, Can you see the grizzle? I sure can, Aswell as some stress marking maybe???


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Ya, it's grizzle.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

These 2 are nest mates is the darker one a grizzle?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Ya, they both are.


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