# Borax and DE



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Two questions:

1. Borax kills external parasites. But you know how birds like to sip their bath water sometimes before hopping in? If they were to accidentally drink some, would it kill internal parasites as well? Of course I wouldn't encourage them drinking it as I'm sure it would give them a little bit of diarrhea. But if they were to drink some, would it be beneficial as far as parasites?

2. Does anyone put DE in their feed to prevent internal parasites? I have heard if pets eat it, it will kill the bugs in them. What is the best way to go about this? Just powdering the feed with it, or perhaps sticking it to the feed with oil like you would with garlic/supplement powders? FOOD GRADE DE of course. That is extremely important.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

We put I on our feed. It calls for two percent I do 1 as the food is fully covered. This is about half a liquid gallon to 100 pounds. Many zoos use it with great results. I also feed it to my dogs. I tried it myself in some water. Taste like I imagine dirt might.
We have not been using it long enough to say yay or nay, but IMO it will defenitialy be a yay. We are still feeding garlic as the DE is a slow worker.
Not only must it be food grade (codex) but get freshwater also. I found it at a local feed shop 50 pounds for 26 bucks, should last at least a year.

BTW we mix it as we are dumping the feed into our bins.
DE is wonderul bunis no overnight killer. It must be used daily to do it's job.
The only thing doin the killing is the rough shape of it, slowly cutting and grinding


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Borax kills external parasites. But you know how birds like to sip their bath water sometimes before hopping in? If they were to accidentally drink some, would it kill internal parasites as well? Of course I wouldn't encourage them drinking it as I'm sure it would give them a little bit of diarrhea. But if they were to drink some, would it be beneficial as far as parasites?
> 
> 2. Does anyone put DE in their feed to prevent internal parasites? I have heard if pets eat it, it will kill the bugs in them. What is the best way to go about this? Just powdering the feed with it, or perhaps sticking it to the feed with oil like you would with garlic/supplement powders? FOOD GRADE DE of course. That is extremely important.


Small amounts of borax will not be harmful to the birds. Unlike your birds, mine drink their bath water before, during and after the bath. I just make sure that I use appropriate amounts of borax in the water - a one rounded tablespoon per two-gallon jug of water (two teaspoons per gallon). When they drink the water, there appears to be no ill effect.

Regarding DE, I'm not in favor of it. It is a crystalline silica powder, which has been proven to cause cancer. Despite the advocates who try to sell me on "food grade" DE, I err on the side of caution. Although food grade DE is not a carcinogen when ingested, it is still carcinogenic if inhaled. It isn't the material - it is the shape of the material. Like asbestos, the sharp little fibers enter the alveolar walls, causing irritation. Over time, the body tries to stop the irritation by growing scar-tissue around the irritated areas. Once the growth process has started, overgrowth can occur, resulting in mesothelioma. They have started looking at fiberglass insulation for the same reason. Again - it's not the material, it is the shape of the material. Maybe the researchers are wrong, and food grade DE is perfectly safe, but I'm not exposing myself, my family, or my birds to it until I can know for sure. (I recently switched from DE in my pool filter to a DE substitute for that very reason. The cellulose-based filter powder I use now is every bit as effective as DE. It lasts as long, it is non-toxic and non-carcinogenic. Also, it is biodegradable, unlike DE, which will last forever wherever you dispose of it.)


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

DE is already in a lot of food, like flour you buy.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah I don't like breathing in the DE either. I think I will try coating it on the feed like I do other supplements to prevent dust.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Coating it won't prevent the the dust. Just try not to breath it in. Just like we try not to breath in pigeon poop dust. Do it outside hold your breath for a second put it on the seed and mix. I do it when I first open the whole bag up. Once it's on the seed and you go to scoop it your fine. If you must. You can go buy a $20 respirator mask with filters and put that on. Would also be good to wear them when cleaning the loft. I don't understand how people can like argue against DE in favor for borax which is banned in foods in the US.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't see how coating it wouldn't prevent dust? The oil would make it stick and not fly around everywhere. It'd also help ensure the birds actually eat it instead of blowing off/wiping off on the tray or something else. If nothing else, I just won't use it. I don't like the idea of my birds breathing it in either. That's why I don't use it in the loft anymore unless we have a bad bug problem.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I think you should do an experiment. Mix up a small amount and scoop a little up. See if dust comes flying off. Then feed it to your pigeons or maybe one pigeon right in front and see if gets all in the air. Without oil the seeds are coated. It binds to the seed, it doesn't just sit on top. Maybe I'll make a video about this when I get home.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Coating it won't prevent the the dust. Just try not to breath it in. Just like we try not to breath in pigeon poop dust. Do it outside hold your breath for a second put it on the seed and mix. I do it when I first open the whole bag up. Once it's on the seed and you go to scoop it your fine. If you must. You can go buy a $20 respirator mask with filters and put that on. Would also be good to wear them when cleaning the loft. *I don't understand how people can like argue against DE in favor for borax which is banned in foods in the US.*


DE is banned in foods in the European Union and Australia, while Borax isn't. I guess it's just a matter of who spent how much of their money with the regulatory agencies.

I would prefer not to use borax either, but seeing as my birds drink their bath water regardless of whether it has poop in it or not, I will continue adding borax to help offset the poop water. Also, borax doesn't fly up in my face when I open a package. DE *always *does.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I don't see how coating it wouldn't prevent dust? The oil would make it stick and not fly around everywhere. It'd also help ensure the birds actually eat it instead of blowing off/wiping off on the tray or something else. If nothing else, I just won't use it. I don't like the idea of my birds breathing it in either. That's why I don't use it in the loft anymore unless we have a bad bug problem.


A cloth hospital mask will prevent DE or most other dust from being aspirated. They are a lot cheaper, and a lot more comfortable to wear than a respirator. In my experience, you can wash them and reuse them about six to ten times before you need to throw them away.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Um. Personally I wouldn't put Borax in food. Not something you'd put in the washing machine to clean your clothes. Nope, not eating it. Boron is important but I would find a supplement intended for ingestion.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Print Tippler said:


> DE is already in a lot of food, like flour you buy.


Are you sure about that? DE is called Fossil Shell Flour sometimes but I've never heard of it being in baking flour.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, unless it is used in grain storage. But it isn't directly mixed into the flour. Gotcha.

Looking at DE stuff, food grade contains less than 1% crystalline silica. So it shouldn't be that bad to inhale. Still wouldn't want to coat the loft with any powder, even that belgium white stuff. I don't like breathing dust regardless.

But still, that's not the point. The point of this thread is internal parasites. If DE only works when it's dry, then wouldn't eating it cause it to be ineffective against parasites?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Who said DE only works when dry? Here's and quote from an article. I think DE is a lot safer than most stuff. I had someone tell me to put Sevin Dust on pigeons.

http://www.ghorganics.com/DiatomaceousEarth.html

Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding
of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
to Zoo Animals

Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan

A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation.* John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York.* John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes.* The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior.* Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well, unless it is used in grain storage. But it isn't directly mixed into the flour. Gotcha.
> 
> Looking at DE stuff, food grade contains less than 1% crystalline silica. So it shouldn't be that bad to inhale. Still wouldn't want to coat the loft with any powder, even that belgium white stuff. I don't like breathing dust regardless.
> 
> But still, that's not the point. The point of this thread is internal parasites. *If DE only works when it's dry, then wouldn't eating it cause it to be ineffective against parasites?*






That's what I always wonder about. Doesn't make any sense, does it? It's only supposed to be effective when dry.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Who said DE only works when dry? Here's and quote from an article. I think DE is a lot safer than most stuff. I had someone tell me to put Sevin Dust on pigeons.
> 
> http://www.ghorganics.com/DiatomaceousEarth.html
> 
> ...


Is this the manufacturer/seller of food grade DE? It would be nice if we could get the results of double-blind studies performed by a independent third party.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

He gave it to 3 zoos to indepently test. Do you want to call the zoos up and ask them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think what he is saying is that getting the results from tests that were done, that were not promoted by someone who stood to gain anything, somehow mean a lot more.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I don't think it would matter, are the three zoos lying about it or not? The company wanted to prove there product so they probably gave it away for free. It probably cost a little to buy all the DE they need.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It only works on bugs when it is dry.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have read the same thing about it only working when dry. That's why it makes no sense that it would work when eaten.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Perhaps it only applies to bugs with hard exoskeletons. Maybe it works with soft bodied parasites differently.


"One strange thing about diatomaceous earth is that for it to work on killing bugs, you have to keep it dry. Even morning dew can make diatomaceous earth ineffective."
http://www.richsoil.com/diatomaceous-earth.jsp

"The wet spray method does work but only after the liquid has dried. Mix from 1-4 tablespoons DE per gallon of water and spray on the lawn, shrubs, tree trunks and building foundations. When the mixture dries, it has the same dehydrating powers as the original dry dust. When sprayed wet the material covers the foliage and other surfaces better than dusting dry, thus giving better insect control. It seems to last longer when applied wet but the dry application is usually more effective at killing insects quickly. DE has no insect killing power while it is wet."
http://www.dirtdoctor.com/Diatomaceous-Earth_vq21.htm

"Diatomaceous earth is a desiccant. It is an abrasive that upon contact starts to break down the outer covering of an insect, making it lose moisture. The centipede then dries out and dies. Diatomaceous earth is only effective when it stays dry."
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7624864_natural-insecticide-centipedes.html

INTERNAL PARASITE CONTROL: Food grade diatomaceous earth makes a very effective natural insecticide. The insecticidal quality of diatomaceous earth is due to the razor sharp edges of the diatom remains. When diatomaceous earth comes in contact with the insects, the sharp edges lacerate the bugs waxy exoskeleton and then the powdery diatomaceous earth absorbs the body fluids causing death from dehydration.



Now on to the internal parasite usage.

"Food grade diatomaceous earth has been used for at least two decades as a natural wormer for livestock. Some believe diatomaceous earth scratches and dehydrates parasites. Some scientists believe that diatomaceous earth is a de-ionizer or de-energizer of worms or parasites. Regardless, people report definite control. To be most effective, food grade diatomaceous earth must be fed long enough to catch all newly hatching eggs or cycling of the worms through the lungs and back to the stomach. A minimum of 60 days is suggested by many, 90 days is advised for lungworms.

Food grade diatomaceous earth works in a purely physical/mechanical manner, not "chemical" and thus has no chemical toxicity. Best yet, parasites don’t build up a tolerance/immunity to its chemical reaction, so rotation of wormers is unnecessary.

People often ask why our DE is rated Food Chemical Codex Grade. If it was only labeled as "food" grade, people would think it is only useful as a food supplement and since DE "acts" like a chemical by dehydrating insects, it was labeled "Chemical" grade since it acts like a chemical, but it is NOT a true chemical like a pesticide or insecticide. It is perfectly safe for oral consumption."
http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/defaq.html (exact same article on other websites as well)

That's all I wanted to know. Now I have my answer. Still don't have an answer about the Borax.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yes it works as a bug killer when dry Because it cuts them. When being consumed it works like grit cutting up bugs inside. These are two totally different things.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

One last question on DE. How much DE per 50 lb bag of feed?

Nevermind. 2 cups.
http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/Articles/DiatomaceousEarth031201.pdf


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

1 pound, 2%


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

On external bugs it drys the bugs soft shell put. That's why it needs to be dry. On internal it's bot drying the bugs but sharply cutting them.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

I mix D E in my feed--it helps to keep out the bugs.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> On external bugs it drys the bugs soft shell put. That's why it needs to be dry. On internal it's bot drying the bugs but sharply cutting them.


How does it sharply cut the bugs without sharply cutting the birds?


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> I don't think it would matter, are the three zoos lying about it or not? The company wanted to prove there product so they probably gave it away for free. It probably cost a little to buy all the DE they need.


You missed the point. As Jay3 said, it would be good to have tests conducted by someone who doesn't have an interest in the outcome. Additionally, although the zoo animals may have shown improvement in overall health, without a double-blind study, how do we know that the improvement should be attributed to the DE and not some outside factor?


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## birdhead (Aug 14, 2011)

I have been using DE on dog food for about 15 years. Any new puppy I have ever gotten has initially been diagnosed with worms (first trip to vet). Never have they had worms on subsequent visits. My dogs usually live to be 14-15 years old. 
I have just gotten into the racing pigeon hobby and will start feed DE to them.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Good topic to bring up this time of year, as the spiders seem to flock into my home! LOL. I actually just received 10lbs of the stuff in the mail last night. I am hoping that dusting- or perhaps mixing with liquid and allowing it to dry- around my foundation and doorways to my home will keep the creepy crawlies at bay. But I did initially make the purchase with the intent of feeding it to all the living creatures that reside here, myself included. Dogs got their first dose last night. I am getting ready to feed the birds their first dose tonight, and will try the mixing it in method and see if it sticks without the addition of any oils. Seems like it would- and then the mad flapping feeding frenzy won't just send it flying. One website I read said that breathing the dust from the freshwater stuff caused no ill effects- even to the miners that breath it 40 hours a week. I'm gonna try and keep the dust level down though, since I don't need to take any chances. Most humans consume it via mixing it with juice or water- so, yeah for internal stuff it can be wet. For keeping the spiders all dried up and far away from me- dry is the way- or wet, then dry.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Well, Logan is right~ I premixed it into my feed bucket, and it stuck to the seeds. Must be the natural oils in the feed. I dunno- just know I am glad I read this topic fisrt- I was just gonna sprinkle it, which would have been a mess.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Yeah sticks no problems. We only do about 1 maybe 1.5 percent as it is good and covered with that amount. 
For the bugs keep it dry and remember to re apply after rain.
Some guy only online sells a puffer to spray it into cracks and control it a little better. It is probably made for something else that he is now marketing for DE. I need to get my hands on one..


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

I wonder if it is one of those air bulbs used to blow dust out of your electronics? I saw some bulb shaped "puffer" type thing being marketed that way too. It is true that rebranding an item with a new use is a marketing technique. All that stuff looks the same as the thing they gave me to pull mucous from my sons' nostrils when he was an infant. 

I put mine in a plastic cup, and did a controlled sideways sweeping shake. I didn't do a terrible job- but I used more than I would have if I had a device to propel it along the foundation. The spiders I encountered along the way died quick- so I know it works for that! 

And I drank my first dose. Apparently the main thing is to drink Lots of water. So, I have been. Apparently, if you observe the effects on your own body ejecting stuff out via poop, you will be disgusted- but also sold on the effectiveness. Not sure if I am going to look. But I am curious to see if it helps with any of my high blood pressure, cholesterol, etc- like some folks claim it will.


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## snowyloft (Nov 18, 2010)

ptras said:


> You missed the point. As Jay3 said, it would be good to have tests conducted by someone who doesn't have an interest in the outcome. Additionally, although the zoo animals may have shown improvement in overall health, without a double-blind study, how do we know that the improvement should be attributed to the DE and not some outside factor?


This is one of the few research articles on this subject although it is not independent of outside interests since it was funded by Natural Feeds and Fertilizers and another company called World Minerals. In spite of that they do not offer convincing evidence that DE controls internal parasites.

They make a big deal regarding the data in the chart showing fecal egg counts in cattle at week 7 where it looks like the DE did only a little worse than the chemical drench group (but they say the numbers were not significant in a statistical sense) and much better than nothing at all. But, they ignore week 10 where the DE group actually has a higher FEC than those that had no treatment at all. 

In the sheep study there was no difference at all in FEC between the DE group, the drenched group and the control group.

They come out and say "The results from all documented studies to date have been inconclusive with some studies reporting successful outcomes and others reporting little or no effect." They concede that it may be the type of DE used and more importantly the trace minerals found in DE contributes to the overall health of the animal which helps them resist the parasites.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

snowyloft said:


> This is one of the few research articles on this subject although it is not independent of outside interests since it was funded by Natural Feeds and Fertilizers and another company called World Minerals. In spite of that they do not offer convincing evidence that DE controls internal parasites.
> 
> They make a big deal regarding the data in the chart showing fecal egg counts in cattle at week 7 where it looks like the DE did only a little worse than the chemical drench group (but they say the numbers were not significant in a statistical sense) and much better than nothing at all. But, they ignore week 10 where the DE group actually has a higher FEC than those that had no treatment at all.
> 
> ...


Funny how its always "inconclusive" when the results don't give them what they want to hear. 

That's why I would take this all with a grain of salt (or DE?) until I hear about conclusive studies, done using scientific methods, by people who do not have an interest in the outcome.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Who ever does a study they have no interest in? If they had no interest in it they wouldn't study it.


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## ValencianFigs (Jul 10, 2010)

My tractor Supply sells it in 20 lb bags... I am thinking about using it... Does it kill tapeworms and other worms???? And the bag says it has calcium bentonite is that ok??? Here is the link.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...s-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yes, it should kill all worms. You want to buy food grade fresh water DE. salt water DE is not as good.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

ValencianFigs said:


> My tractor Supply sells it in 20 lb bags... I am thinking about using it... Does it kill tapeworms and other worms???? And the bag says it has calcium bentonite is that ok??? Here is the link.
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...s-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864


Yes, that is okay to give them. The kind you'll want to stay away from is the kind you put in swimming pools.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yes I saw it was food grade on the package. Becky, it's not just the swimming pool DE you want to stay away from, you don't want any garden DE that is for bugs. Like safer brand says it has patented insects bait in it to lure bugs. This could be just honey but we don't know. If doesn't say "Food Chemical Codex Grade" do not get it and fresh water for sure this who you want fresh water 

Here read this page for some good info, selected quote below
http://www.perma-guard.com/fossilshell.html

"Fresh water deposits like ours have a consistent diatom presence. Their fossilized shells have maintained their tubular shape. This shape and strength of the fossil shell is critical to its effectiveness. Our deposit has 89 - 95 percent amorphous silica content. This deposit is also more consistent in its purity of other elements that have settled in it. A fresh water deposit is confined to the run off water of its surrounding environment. A fresh water deposit in the mountains, such as ours, formed when snow was pure and its run off provided the water source these diatoms lived in. Salt water deposits contain a mix of types of diatoms of different shapes. Their fossilized shells are fragile and break easily. This renders them ineffective for our purposes. The salt water deposits are less predictable in their sediments."


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Who ever does a study they have no interest in? If they had no interest in it they wouldn't study it.


Again, you misinterpret what I've said. I didn't say "no interest in." Read my post again...I said "That's why I would take this all with a grain of salt (or DE?) until I hear about conclusive studies, done using scientific methods, *by people who do not have an interest in the outcome*."

Independent scientists and researchers do studies they have no interest in the results of. They follow scientific methods, and don't expect or "hope for" any result. As far as I am concerned (and most others who believe in scientific methods), a study conducted by someone who has a vested interest in the outcome isn't worth the paper it is written on.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Who ever does a study they have no interest in? If they had no interest in it they wouldn't study it.


By the way...did you read the post by snowyloft? He/she posted the results on a controlled study, done by a disinterested third-party. Doesn't look too good for DE based on this study.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, that is okay to give them. The kind you'll want to stay away from is the kind you put in swimming pools.





ptras said:


> Again, you misinterpret what I've said. I didn't say "no interest in." Read my post again...I said "That's why I would take this all with a grain of salt (or DE?) until I hear about conclusive studies, done using scientific methods, *by people who do not have an interest in the outcome*."
> 
> Independent scientists and researchers do studies they have no interest in the results of. They follow scientific methods, and don't expect or "hope for" any result. As far as I am concerned (and most others who believe in scientific methods), a study conducted by someone who has a vested interest in the outcome isn't worth the paper it is written on.



Everyone has bias views. No one comes to a conclusion in a purely neutral view, there is no such thing. But to go into this would be off topic but your welcome to PM me and discuss it.

As for the study what kind of DE did they use, they aren't all the same. So if they did not use Amorphous silica from a fresh water deposit I don't care.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Everyone has bias views. No one comes to a conclusion in a purely neutral view, there is no such thing. But to go into this would be off topic but your welcome to PM me and discuss it.
> 
> As for the study what kind of DE did they use, they aren't all the same. So if they did not use Amorphous silica from a fresh water deposit I don't care.


I don't feel at all as if this discussion is off topic. The original poster asked about using borax and DE in pigeon feed. I think it is very on topic to discuss the merits of using DE, and how we can determine the safety and effectiveness.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Everyone has bias views. No one comes to a conclusion in a purely neutral view, there is no such thing. But to go into this would be off topic but your welcome to PM me and discuss it.
> 
> *As for the study what kind of DE did they use, they aren't all the same. So if they did not use Amorphous silica from a fresh water deposit I don't care.*


They used this kind:
Given the proposed mechanism for the action of diatomaceous earth on parasites and the trace element effect, care was taken to choose a particular diatomaceous earth grade with an exceptional high surface area and oil absorption. The particular grade used in this study had previously been shown to have the greatest efficacy on insects in an independent study commissioned by World Minerals. Base physical properties of the material chosen for this study are:-
Oil Absorption ASTM D281 220.0
Surface Area (m2/g) 33.0
Particle Size d10 microns 4.9
Particle Size d50 microns 13.3
Particle Size d90 microns 26.6
Base Diatom Species Cyclostephanos
SEM of the particular diatomaceous earth used
Chemical Composition
SiO2 91 % Cl 328 ppm Co 5 ppm Ge 1 ppm Sm 0.4 ppm
LOI 3.54 % F 118 ppm Ga 3 ppm Mo 1 ppm Dy 0.3 ppm
Al2O3 2.29 % V 172 ppm Pd 3 ppm W 1 ppm Er 0.21 ppm
CaO 0.77 % Ba 106 ppm La 2.3 ppm Br <1 ppm Ag 0.2 ppm
Fe2O3 0.66 % Sr 83.8 ppm Nd 2.3 ppm Hf 0.7 ppm Yb 0.2 ppm
MgO 0.42 % Zr 19.5 ppm Sc 2.2 ppm U 0.69 ppm Cd <0.2 ppm
Na2O 0.33 % B 15 ppm As 2 ppm Pr 0.57 ppm Eu 0.13 ppm
C(total) 0.27 % Zn 14.2 ppm Nb 2 ppm Be <0.5 ppm Tl <0.1 ppm
K2O 0.25 % Cr 9 ppm Pb 2 ppm Bi <0.5 ppm Ho 0.06 ppm
C(org) 0.14 % Ni 9 ppm Sn <2 ppm In <0.5 ppm Tb 0.06 ppm
TiO2 0.12 % Rb 8.4 ppm Sb 1.7 ppm Se <0.5 ppm Lu <0.05 ppm
S 0.06 % Cu 7 ppm Cs 1.5 ppm Ta <0.5 ppm Tm <0.05 ppm
MnO 0.02 % Li 6 ppm Y 1.5 ppm Te <0.5 ppm Pt <10 ppb
P2O5 <0.01 % Ce 5.2 ppm Th 1 ppm Gd 0.42 ppm Au <2 ppb


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I was speaking of the above statement about neutrality. With study and field experiments would be good. Why do people use ACV, has there ever been a scientific study done on ACV and pigeons and was it done by a person with no vested interest?


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Print Tippler dont waste your time you & I know the hands on Benifits of DE,,, I guess about the only thing a few of you folks are so desperate to prove to each other is that, Some swear to the fact the DE helps and has benefited their Birds in many ways & the others that just don’t care to believe it! Or that it doesn’t have any benefits at all when it come to other benefits other then killing bugs! The ones that swear by it, see the Benefits in their Pigeons and the Others just simply show tests conducted on other animals, but not pigeons! Well I been using DE for 3 years now, the pure 100% white Food grade type mined from fresh water deposits, In my feed, water, after cleaning my Coop, in nest bowl with young in it, grit, Dust my birds with it, ETC, ETC, ETC… And have seen a dramatic over all effect of my birds on all levels, no sick birds NOTHING nor Young & older birds sick! That I have thrown out all of those garbage products’ that all these pigeon suppliers sell over two years ago and don’t regret it one bit, I don’t need it!!! I say I don’t have to convince anyone of their theoretical fact finding views or speculations based on animals tested other then pigeons… My reality & certainty is representativeness in my birds, which outweighs any speculation. Wow its incredible how 1 product DE has benefited my birds in so many different ways. To those folks “non believers” I say Go get your wallet and dig in and buy some more of those garbage & wasteful, useless medical products those “snake oil salesman” pigeon suppliers want you to buy! Hurry up now! Get it before your birds get sick AGAIN…


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

I tried it on me- and felt like it was cleaning me out- in a good way. I agree with whoever pointed out that we use ACV based on each others experience with it and some vague idea that it helps with the gut health. For me it comes down to natural living for me, and all my pets- pigeons included. So, I am totally all in on DE. And ACV- and Garlic- and in letting the babies develop natural immunity. Over-medicating and blanket medicating is gonna cause more problems down the road than natural products- or even doing nothing and treating individual sick birds. But I tend towards the groovy natural approach, cuz it fits good in my brain and in my world view. Just makes sense to me. Like I am sure it makes sense to some folks to spend hundreds of bucks on broad spectrum antibiotics, 6 in 1 miracle cures, etc etc etc. We all want the same thing- but we take different paths to get there sometimes.


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## snowyloft (Nov 18, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> Everyone has bias views. No one comes to a conclusion in a purely neutral view, there is no such thing.


The scientific method is used to avoid biased results and works most of the time. It's the interpretation of the results that can be biased which was evident in the discussion in the article on DE as a wormer. 

This is a great video by Tom Naughton who delightfully discusses good science vs bad science. It explains how people can correlate the use of one supplement with good results while another person doesn't see any difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1RXvBveht0

The only harm in using DE is if you believe that it and it alone will kill all worms that your birds have. It won't. If you want to use it as a supplement it may provide some needed trace minerals.


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## snowyloft (Nov 18, 2010)

Tiplets said:


> ... I say I don’t have to convince anyone of their theoretical fact finding views or speculations based on animals tested other then pigeons…


The tests were done to see if DE had any positive effect on reducing internal parasites. They also looked at live weight gain in young animals which is related to the level of parasites they carry. DE didn't have any effect on overall health at least none that could be measured. 

While pigeons and cows and sheep have different digestive systems their parasites are pretty much the same.


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

snowyloft said:


> The tests were done to see if DE had any positive effect on reducing internal parasites. They also looked at live weight gain in young animals which is related to the level of parasites they carry. DE didn't have any effect on overall health at least none that could be measured.
> 
> While pigeons and cows and sheep have different digestive systems their parasites are pretty much the same.


Sure OK! I know you believe it and have concrete evidence to prove it. But it still doesn't change my mind, because I see the evidence in real time in my birds & not in a lab. Therefore we are both winners, You and your proven scientific Facts & I with my healthy Birds!


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## ValencianFigs (Jul 10, 2010)

*External Parasite*



Tiplets said:


> Sure OK! I know you believe it and have concrete evidence to prove it. But it still doesn't change my mind, because I see the evidence in real time in my birds & not in a lab. Therefore we are both winners, You and your proven scientific Facts & I with my healthy Birds!


Hello,

I was wondering if it takes out exterrnal parasites??? You said you dust bathe them with it???


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

ValencianFigs said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering if it takes out exterrnal parasites??? You said you dust bathe them with it???


 Hello, 
I just dry dust new birds a week before they are being introduced into the loft and dust once every 6 months or so on each of my birds or before breeding & young birds also in the nest after two to three weeks old, This seems to Work for me! No bugs, lice ETC on my birds, DE has made me a believer, its cheap, effective and non toxic. But again, I know only what I have seen in my birds overall wellness and so far its all been positive! I just don't have anything bad or ill testimony's about the use of DE around my birds. NONE, Sorry! But I understand that everyone has the right & should do their own research behind any product(s) before using it, Its the best and safest & wisest approach when dealing with your birds. I hope this Surmises’ the case on the basis of my only limited evidence & intuitive feelings of my use & dealings with DE, Please Understand that I only speak for myself and really don't care what others believe to be true, whether based on scientific facts or not, Again I really don't care what they can prove, other then it can kill or make ill my birds. "To each his Own"


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## ssfguy (Sep 6, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I always wonder about. Doesn't make any sense, does it? It's only supposed to be effective when dry.


Lice are born from sweat so DRY = death.


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