# Koenig Bricoux



## kramer9802 (Dec 31, 2005)

Koenig Bricoux

Does anyone know where I can buy a pigeon of this family or strain? My dad used to have a lot of these and I always like them. I have look at Continental Breading Station, but I don't see any like that. 

Thanks


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

They are a old line bird strain. You will have to do some looking now days. wyane Haws used to have some Years back He stll might. Look up okla pigeon breedsers club. He is the show sec, Lives in Choctaw okla.Good luck


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## kramer9802 (Dec 31, 2005)

*Thanks*

I grew up in Oklahoma. I will have my dad ask around too, my dad might even know wayne. I found some in Britain, but the guy doesn't export.


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## schmiedl_bricou (Feb 17, 2006)

*I have bricoux's*

I HAVE HAD BRICOUX'S SINCE THE 1980'S AND STILL HAVE STRAIGHT LINE BRICOUX'S I BOUGHT FROM THE VDS NURSE'S AUCTION'S THEY HAD AROUND THE COUNTRY FOR MORE INFO CONTACT ME AT [email protected]

P.S. WICHITA HOMING PIGEON CLUB KANSAS


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Real "Bricoux" birds died off over fifty years ago.*

I am always curious when people speak of some these great old line strains. I often get people mad at me, who will insist for example that they own "Pure" Bricoux birds or Sions, or what have you.

In 1940 the French army, killed off the entire loft of Dr. Arthur Bricoux. He attemped to restart his loft again with birds he had sold or gifted to other fanciers, but soon Dr. Bricoux died, perhaps from a broken heart ?

His son Bricoux Jr. took over, but it was evident that he was not really into pigeons, and it showed in the race results. The last Bricoux Jr. bird was hatched in 1952 and all remaining birds were sold at auction. It was apparent that these birds did not have nearly the class as Dr. Bricux's birds of pre-1940.

In the book, "The History of the Belgian Strains" it was said that in 1973 it was reported that there were some "Pure" Bricoux reported to be around...but the author said "but in connection with this, we must confess we would like to see a pedigree" and that was 36 years ago !!  

So, my question is, how can anyone say they own a "Pure" (whatever that means) Dr. Bricoux strain, when that was being seriously questioned so many decades ago ?  One would have to question the intellectual honesty of even saying "Bricoux based", because even with very well kept pedigrees and sixty some years of line breeding, it is still a mighty big stretch of the imagination.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Bricoux*

Warren, 
What ever happened to Joe Rotondo's Bricoux's?? Did he make up the idea that his family was Bricoux? I think he flew in your area, but maybe he was just selling books etc. & made up these birds from his imagination, or straight lies? Course he is gone now also. I'm on the West coast, so only read his book etc...... Buy the way, I got my Bricoux's from a guy out here in So. Cal.. He made 2 imports of Bricoux's in 1927-28 & kept them pure till 1970 & crossed 2 other strains in some of them after all that time, this I know for sure. He raced them very hard & the did as good as any other strain I know of till his death in 1982. Course I crossed mine he GAVE ME 2 of the PURE ONES in 1975, so my family is about 25% of these Bricoux.. We don't have to show Peds., as a bird is only as pure as the honesty of the writter! I'm sure that many of Bricoux's survived the war that they were used in & went home with the Officers of the Pigeon Corps., but I don't know that for sure.... How do we know any strain is pure? I used to be able to tell pretty well many of the straight strains in the 50's to 70's buy there looks, head etc.. Course Label names on Racers now are Big $$$ & Big Egos, so many don't say the originals of there strains like Stassart, Havenith, HVR's Bastin, Wegge, Bekaerts, Barkers, Gurnays, Osman, etc. as newer generation folks wouldn't "Buy" them..... Just a thought that came to me. I know you've raced along time, but "Sometimes" you sound like a Crazy Al type of guy that gets a new-er strain of birds & that's all there is or ever was & all that will fly well.... Hap


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*What is winning at National Level Today ? Not 60 years ago.*

Hello Hap,

Now didn't I say that people will get mad at me concerning the validity of their old line strains ?  

Now please do not take offense, this is simply a academic discussion, if you take a moment or two to see the reason of my "argument" you may find that I make some valid points. 

First of all, I base my thinking on this very important premise. At some point, the new owner of a strain of pigeon, any strain, begins to place his or her mark on that particular strain as soon as the new owner selects the first pairing ! Now, with each successive generation that this owner selectively pairs these birds together, a little more change takes place. 

So, in your example of Joe Rotondo's Bricoux's, I would suggest that after a few generations, they were "Rotondo's" and your friend in S Cal the same thing. Certainly as each cross was made, great genectic differences would have been occuring around the world with hundreds if not thousands of lofts. 

You are correct, that a pedigree is only as good as the person who put it together. But, can you imagine if we were talking about race horses, and the owner claimed he had a particular horse down from War Horse or some other line, but no records were kept, or unavailable ? The owner would not be taken seriously. With pigeons and open lofts, even with a line of very honest people, with 60 generation pedigrees (how much paper would that take anyway ?) the odds that a cross occured over the last 60 or 70 years is pretty good. In fact, many numerous crosses, across hundreds of lofts. 

Now, if we launch into todays modern strains and winners. The reason they are considered strains in the first place, is because they are winning with them. The genectic technology has changed, take the Janssen as an example. They were the "new fangled" strain that came along in the last several decades, and the guys that had them, were beating the pants off everything out there. It became a "fad" of sorts, and many many lofts have been impacted by those birds. But, the technology and advancement in pigeon development continues to move forward. 

The real Champion masters today, keep pace with the advancements by introducing new lines on occasion, and breeding only from their very best. It is not the strains or labels on the birds that they started with, it is the selection process along the way. 

So, it's not like the newer strains is all there ever was, or all that will fly, it is the recognition that there has been advances in the modern day Champion. I want the offspring and grandchildren from the fastest and greatest pigeons of today. I do not want the offspring or grand children of a family that has not won any important National Race with tens of thousands of competitors for 20 plus years, let alone 50 + years ago. Anymore then I want to drive a 20 year old car.

The sad but true fact is the great Champions, and the great strain makers, are still in Europe. While it has been how many decades since a true American strain has been developed into a world powerhouse ? And what was the name ?  

Perhaps the reason is, Americans will fall in love with the nostalgia of an ideal that worked so well, so long ago. And while they tinker with the families of decades gone by, the European Champs will introduce the lastest and the greatest of what is currently working, when they need or desire a cross to move up to the next level.

Well, I wrote a book, and I am off topic. Someone is into nostalgia, and wants what his Dad had. We love those kind of guys in our Combine, because it makes our stats look better !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well warren I would have to agree to most of what you have said. Anytime ANYBODY gets birds from any where be it from the source of the family strain or a off shoot breeder. That person pairs the birds to there best method hopeing that it works for them. Past strains A base background builders as to where you got your start. Here in america. There are some of the best pigeons out there. But people still do not build off them and are not reconized for them. They give credit back to the old line and sell them that way. And the idea is to get your birds and try to improve them for your needs. THATS what any one in other countries have allways done. Then when they show theere worth in the races people want them. Thats why we hear these new names from time to time. Like say the ludlo birds you have now. They are fast becoming Smiths. but ludlo based to origin of strain. BUT they are smiths now. When people here start just breeding there birds for top performance and stop selling paper that says janssen, sion , vanloon ECT. And just put the pedigree info. and add say Smith bred at the top of that peddigree Then we are on our way to be a known country of top raceing pigeon performance. Race results just as show results for show birds. tells the story on what the birds do. Large races. or one loft races where top breeders send there hopefulls gives way to how that loft performs. Strains are like building a house. You start with a solid foundation. And then start building the walls and roof then go onto the next step. there are NO real old line strains left if THAT strain builder is passed on Or not brreding his birds any more. They are all the person that has kept them as a foundation strain now. So they are Base lined to that strain or several others but they really are Smiths. Jones Ect. after a few pairings of breeding.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Yes Re Lee,

I agree with what you say 100%. My birds are certainly becoming more "Smith" every time I choose to pair this bird with that one. And if someone was to say to me, they are not really "Ludo's" they are a "Smith" I certainly would not be offended. 

That is why I am somewhat confused by those who become offended when the founder of the birds they claim to have, has been dead for over half a century or more !  

They should have a little more confidence in their abilities. Heck at some point in the future I am sure Ludo will be trying to obtain a "Smith" to improve his colony, rather then the other way around !  

http://smithfamilyloft.com/NewsFlash.htm

In the mean time, with SIX National Championships with tens of thousands of birds competing...LUDO....in my mind, is still DA MAN !!


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Hello again Warren, You & I will probably never agree on the subject of older Strains, but I respect your opinions on most of what you say... When I say older "Based Strains" like Bricoux as this post is about. I certainly mean birds that have been always RACED from 50 yrs.etc. ago, to current day & that means "Old Bird & Young Bird Racing". Certainly I or any one that has raced along time wouldn't go to a loft that hasn't raced or won with them in 50yrs! to obtain birds & I'm afraid that is what you are putting across the newer Racing folks on this subject. I personaly like to give credit to the original bloodlines of my lifetime. Not to do so would be Arrogant/Self centered in my opinion. You may have lived in Europe, but I live in the USA & can get the records of most birds if I want. Certainly they have "Much" bigger & More races than we do, but I've seen films of some & it seems to take 5 min. to get them all released. Also I don't think they can train as easily or transport there birds long distances that we can in the USA & some other country's. Course I know that most all our birds originally came from Europe, but I think we have Many birds as good if not better than them for Racing over 400mi... I know you fly YB's only & many people just like the Quarter Horse over the Throughbreed & that's your right.. We all know that the Dark & Light system done correctly, training short twice a day etc. will make better results in YB's & may even get Average pigeons in the winning circle.... This is not true in Old Bird Racing.... Some of these Older Based lines were making 600mi. ON THE DAY in the 1940's on the West Coast without any super drugs/antibiotics/ or even Canker meds. that we have today. 600mi. Day birds are no Flukes, Sight birds, or lucky birds that just hung onto the front flock & happened to get a super trap & on the line of flight. I'm not sure there is any Huge Improvement for distance birds of today, just better meds.& handling?..... I can tell you that there are some flyers here in Ca. that wished they hadn't gotten rid of there Bekaert's. They certainly have done as well as ANY birds in the Snowbird Races here. The Bekaert's, Huysken VanRiel's, & Devrient's "BASED BIRDS" have also done as well as any of the newer strains in this area from all distances & this is not Nostalgia..... The only thing left I have to say in this Book that I just wrote is that even though "RAP" etc. so called music is out selling all other music at this time, doesn't mean that it is better than older music!! Of this part, I'm sure you will agree! .... I've had my 35 Old Birds twice to 107 Air Mile toss's 120mi. drive released with 500 other birds in our club with a 40-50mi. front the last 2 Sat.'s & all are looking good so far with no loss's. 1st race Mar. 12 with about 2,000 concourse birds....... Busy time now, but I think I'm having fun. Hap


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Happy said:


> Busy time now, but I think I'm having fun. Hap


I know you are busy .. any luck with finding any old timers with regard to my 1987 Devonshire bird? It's not important, not urgent, just curiosity.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*The Old Line Strains....*

Hello Hap,

I hear you on the OB racing. The problem is in our combine of 100+ members, the majority only want to fly YB's now, and we even dropped the 600 race station. The attention is now focused on the fast maturing YB's for the various auction and One Loft racing. The thinking is that is where the action is  

I have included here a partial quote from Ad Schaerlaeckens, which gives another perspective on these older "strains".

"I will give another example: Jan Aarden, a famous name all over the world for long distance. Now, some decades after his death many people in Holland claim to have pure Jan Aardenstrain. Most of them know better but the name sells! And what again is the truth? Just like Hofkens Jan Aarden was always looking for the best, he bought birds everywhere and though he was not a very succesful racer it must be said that later other fanciers were succesful with the offspring of his pigeons. But… they were not 'a strain' either. What he did have was also a mixture of birds. Like I said before epecially the American pigeonfanciers are very naive. They show off with pure Bekaert, pure Wegge, pure Verheye, pure Hansenne, pure Bricoux, pure Huyskens van Riel, pure Genette etcetera, etcetera. Names completely unknown to the younger generation in Europe. For example Wegge and Huyskens van Riel.
Wegge and Huyskens van Riel. Wegges birds were auctioned in 1903! Again the same story: They were nearly all crossings. Now almost a century later some Americans claim to have them pure. Isn't it ridicoulous? Huyskens van Riels pigeons are also kept pure in foreign countries. However, Geroges, the son of Jef van Riel himself admits that in his birds is not much blood left of his late father. And if there would be one person in the world who could have Huyskens van Rielstrain it would be him. But he is an honest man who does not want to misuse the name of his father. Moreover… also his fathers pigeons which destroyed the races in the late fourties and early fifties were products of crossings. In 1946 Jef van Riel bought a round of eggs from Jos van den Bosch. He CROSSED these pigeons with his own and an explosion of superbirds was the result."

Taken from : http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If I remember right. the jan Ardens were started back after ww11. When some one went into the greman loft stole back 3 pair of birds. Now 3 pair of birds would have to had been outcrossed from the base line in a short time But not to big of a out cross over a 20 year period. But with the large numbers you see in just the ardens now days You can bet they hold little to none in the old line key.Just like any old line strain. It is just a name now. IF a person fails to take any family forward That line falls behind. Introduced improvements or stable facters to a family line as time goes by maintains a base line. Only when that line is done by the original named breeder. If anybody else does that they are making there own line. They just used some strain line base at first. I agree there are some very top raceing pigeon In the U S people just do not exersise the fact that these birds have been cultivated to fly well in the U S and can perform without some big name behind them. Kind of like name brand clothes. you reconize the name so it must be good. A good racing homer is just that it has no name. Birds take on a breeder name or given name by a breeder. Race results prove the worth. Thats a given. I like the old line birds too. many felt great and looked like they could race. But they have been managed by so many different people NO way can they be that pure line. Its a why dont people get away from the name and breed towards birds that show what they can do time after time. The other counties do this The U S needs to do this. Trentons. Gordans They hold a U S based named structure. But they to are not Bred by the foundation breeder. So are they trentons or gordans any longer. NO they are raceing homers bred by the many different people that breeds them. Because first a raceing homer is a developed breed of pigeon. Then strain bred. then strain base line bred. then all together reformed in structure to a new family line. If the birds fly well for you or somebody else. Then you are doing something right in the breeding loft. Thats all that matters is find a family of birds breed them down a line study there performance improve them as needed maintain a solid program And know only you after time controled there inherted facters through breeding that ended in results you strived to produce.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Something along the line of your discussion comes to mind. In the late 70's I flew Sions. I was in my early teens and did quite well in our small club. I took birds from the old men, bread them and then kicked the pants off of them in the races. These birds were pulling 900 yards per minute with the wind. A year ago I got back into the bird business. I spent much time looking for good birds. I studied new so called strains. For some reason I could not find but one source of Sions. This told me something. Old strains and 900 yards per minute did not cut it anymore. I am sure Sky Lake has refined these a bit. 
I did not want old lines, old strains, or the old speeds of those days. I do remember reading somewhere where the author was comparing the thinking of pigeon breeders from different countries. Their conclusion was that Europeans breed best to best, those from the Orient breed most expensive to most expensive and Americans breed paper to paper. I also agree that when one looks for the best they travel to Belgium or the Netherlands. 
This being said, I looked for birds that won futurites, had lineage back to the best Belgium fliers today, and did not break the bank. 
I was not so concearned with strains, but winning families. I studied the way Engels, Van Elsaker, Ludo, Vic Miller, Piet Valk, Van Rhijin Kloeck, Vandenebelle, Jos Thone and others founded their lofts. They all pulled from the best birds that they could get their hands on and founded a family.
The Irony is that I could not afford these birds or foundation quality birds. I did find a local flier that did well in futurities around the country that was willing to get me started with some free birds. He gave me brothers and sisters of futurity money winners. I began to study the pedigrees like a typical American. There was not a bird one that did not have one or more of the fore-mentioned fanciers in their pedigrees. He gave me grandsons of Magic Star, Ikon and De Dikkie, A grandaughter of four direct Janssen birds. Two granddaughters of The Miller Cock. Two grandsons from Van Reets Vector and Mary. A grandson of David Perfection and other birds from old line Millers. 
In other words I am thinking of looking for one of my old-line Sion decendents to use as a drooper. The new birds just out class my birds of old. 
A final note would be: do we want those old strains? I would much prefer a Van Boxtel, Muelman, or Janssen bird of old with 50 generations of refinement upon its lineage. A bird that could compete with Crazy Al, Ganus, Yu, Red Rose, CBS, Smith and other strong fliers that buy the best from the best in the world. 
We cannot forget those Shellens and other German birds that are flown harder than any other in the world. I am happy to see Musketeer 4 in one of my pedigrees. I will always be a good American and study the paper. 
If anyone has a Shellens, a Gabby, or an Elsaker Bird they want to trade, I am still looking for good birds to add to the gene pool.
I was asked by someone, that with such a hodge-podge of bloodlines how I could ever establish a family of birds. I just give them the basketball analogy. If you take the MBA and breed them with the WMBA, surely you will get a few kids that can play basketball. 
Best Regards
Randy Hill
hillfamilyloft


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Randy of HFL, 

You make some very good valid points. I also started with Sions back in the mid 1960's and I loved the heck out of them !!  

Back then, just about everybody had some Sion or Stassart (spelling?) in their lofts. My Sions were very beautiful and reliable, and I am sure that if anyone carefully linebred them up untill today, they would still be very beautiful, but they never would have changed or improved from way back then.

And of course there are no top lofts in Europe flying "pure Sions" anymore. In fact, they would not even understand the question, and more likely have no ideal who the heck you are talking about.

Many of these and other top families may be somewhere in todays families, but it would have been many generations and many decades ago. The newer families or "strains" have been built on top of these, and refined into new families.

These new families are normally out of reach of most pocketbooks. Because the very best of anything is more valuable and costs more. But, in time, even these families will become outdated and an "old line strain". Then some old geezer in 2105 will want to argue, that the families way back at the turn of the century...2006...are still the best !!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

One thing For sure a bird does not have to be high priced to be a winner or help improve a family of birds. BUT birds that come from a winning family are driven up in price because demand is out there. And thats when you have to buy birds from breeders that do not sell the paper but sell the bird first. I to flew sions had several family groups of sions. They performed much better then 900 yards a minute. But area deturmines speed also. Now with me sions performed better past the 200 mile mark. Under that they would do about 1200 to 1300 yards per minute. stasserts about the same you could on different races see 1400 to 1800 yards . Any family of birds needs maintained. they first become yours after you breed them. You bring a needed out cross in when you desire to strenghen your birds agin. You have to test and build for sometime. Thats also where you really do not see the original strain being able to keep there name. But as said befor names sell. Best to best does not produce best never has You want to complment your mateing to produce best. You have a top performer but its brother who is just under its performance may be the better breeder to produce the next winners. So best to best is for the breeding loft You select your best breeders put themover different birds. to find that pair that hits. Then spread it out. I really do not think the birds today fly that much faster. Used base speed in the past of 45 miles an hour then included tail winds cross winds and head winds to set either increased speed or reduced speed. Look at workman in the late 70s. He set a record speed of about 103 miles a hour on a race. THAT Im sure was a good tail wind race. And peopl I new that bought workman bred birds did not see the great performance they was looking for. A consistant breeder of winning birds that person is doing something right in the breeding loft. And results tells all. That persons birds becomes valuble to others for improvement. May have started off as a few crosses then onto a family of winners. I guess Im just saying a person puts the birds together the best way they know how and works on building there performance when they find a prepotent bird they improve down the line With just a small number of key birds. Thats a family and its not old line or new line its your improved line of birds.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

I notice that none of you mention Huysken Van Riel, Deverient. or Bekaerts that are still doing "very well" today even in your $$$ 250-300mi. one loft races!! You only talk of Sions-Stassarts.. I flew way back then & we SELDOM had 900 YPM races even with Sions! Overall average speeds haven't changed on our West Coast. In the 60's whe had over-all average speend winners in the 1,200 to 1,500 ypm in Old bird Racing from 125mi. to 600mi.. Course we have always had better weather & seldom headwinds......


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The hvr,s devrients and bekaerts Are still active yes. But then they like others Are loft bred families of base line strains. I have seen some hvr,s that Look so much different then the birds you saw 30 years ago. they were much smaller in frame and size. I believe to much inbreeding to be the problem there. BUt then I have saw some that look very near what you saw 30 years ago. Bekearts is a good all a round group from 100 to 600 milers. Devrients The same. But as a person maintains a stud of birds they put a breeders mark on them. Are they really those strains any more. They are not. They just reain that name because it sounds good. Thats agin is what people do not get. a pigeon breeder of any breed puts a mark on there birds. But birds have a base line strain or strains of development. From there they are your making. Not the past. look back several generation on a pedigree. See how far the birds are from the orginal foundation strain breeder. Now how can they be that strain. The person did not breed any of them other people did. And if they did well they did so because they did something right. Goes for the birds you see imported today. tommrow they are not that strain either.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Happy said:


> I notice that none of you mention Huysken Van Riel, Deverient. or Bekaerts that are still doing "very well" today even in your $$$ 250-300mi. one loft races!!.........


 Hap,

I did mention those old line strains, and they were an important part of the history of racing pigeons. But, I consider myself in the same camp as Ad Schaerlaeckens, when it comes to people who think that they own the same birds that a Master of the sport flew, many, and in some cases, many many decades ago.

The reality is....There are no Huysken Van Riels, Bekaerts, etc. etc. anymore.....they are gone..... long gone. 

Even if your father or grand father secured a bunch way back when.....and religiously line bred them without a single cross for the last ? 60 years ? they are still not the same birds.....since other people have been doing the selecting for generation after generation after generation. 

Look back at my previous post, where I quoted Ad Schaerlaeckens and see what he has to say about Americans who claim to be flying those old family strains.

Fanciers today are pretty smart, and as an example, they understand the difference between a "Direct Ludo" from Ludo Claessen himself, and one that I have been breeding three generations from the orginal, two generations from the orginal, or direct children from the orginal. The commercial value decreases at every generation and why is that ? Because at every generation someone other then the master himself, is doing the selection. You can very easily spend five figures for an orginal direct Ludo, by the third generation from the master you are at 3 figures. 

What we need here, is a little intellectual honesty when it comes to placing a "strain name" on a pedigree. There are no uniform standards going on here, which adds to the confusion. By the forth generation at the very least, the current owner should place his own name onto the "strain". At least that is the policy I am following, and I think it reasonable, that by the forth generation of selecting, I have firmly established my mark, good, bad, or indifferent. 

And surely, if someone like yourself Happy, has been working on the same "strain" for decades....for goodness sake, they are certainly "Happy" birds by now ! .....don't you think ?


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Mr. Smith, & Mr. Re Lee, 
I will always give CREDIT to the Stains of my lifetime that have helped me & others I know. You Two don't want to do that unless they are from Europe, & as far as I can see you don't want to call ANY Racing Pigeons a Strain Name. I've never met anyone as Stubborn as you two...... I've never read any artical from Europe that says anything good about our USA Pigeons or people of any type, with the exceptiong of Bill Pensom that came over here from England with his Birmingham Rollers in the 1940's & Walked the way he Talked. But he did it here in the good ole USA & kept an Open Mind. Most Super Birmingham Rollers of today are from his stock, & I don't know a super ole Roller Kit flyer of these that won't tell ya that they are all Pensom Rollers that they have cultavated with NO OUTCROSS's.. My father & Pensom were best of friends & I knew him well also. 
So all I can say is you Read European Racing stuff, & I'll stick to good ole USA writtings, etc.. This is where I live, & have Never sold a Racing Pigeon. Warren seems you like the "Action" as you call it, that translates to Betting $$$$ in my mind & thats the last thing I want from "Racing Pigeons", so no wonder we are on such crossroads?? This will be my last writing on this subject as my Head is getting SORE BANGING it into these Strain Post with you two. You are both knowledgable Pigeon Men, but we will probably never agree on this subject & all of us have said the same thing over at least 3 times..... It has been fun & flustrating...... Let's Race, Happy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Friends Love To Fight !!!*

Hap !!!  

That's what I love about this site ! We can disagree about some things and still be friends !! 

I was reading another site, where people got nasty and down right mean !!!

Here we can share ideals, and disagree, and still agree that we love the birds !!  

I am sure Hap that in person, we would find that we agree on more things, then we disagree on. 

Course, in a race, ya know I would have to whup ya good !!!  

Thanks for sharing !!!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I think some of the best raceing pigeons are here in the U.S .A. They do not have to be import birds at all Or should I say Current imports. Old line birds are the very foundation to any source of modern raceing homers. I just feel you maintain a certion quality in the birds to cultivate them. And its very hard to say a bird dates back to a strain thata has not been bred by the founder for along period. NOT sayinmg a person can not manage that strain foundation stock and keep some kind of balance . But only a few key birds give credit to any strain of pigeon. Where as a foudation you build your family of birds. They may be true to a past strain yes. But its hard if not immpossible to keep it up. even the founder of that strain would have madeselective out crossings To maintain vigar quality to the birds. This would have been done selective in maaner. to keep certion inherited factors. We in America have gave credit so long to out sourced breeding for name sake. Many times name sell birds that are farremoved from the desired method of breeding. That takes away from quality produced lines. Causeing a break down on performanced based breeding factors. Few people can boste they maintain a select stud of birds That is managed to the desire of repeated performance based line production. First we have local level there you do not halve to breed as productive then state level you have to breed for more performance in the birds to compete on a higher level. THen national level you have to select to breed birds that can compete with the top birds in the country. You find there well managed studs of birds where selective breeding and strong records are kept to maintain a high perormance of your birds. Now at all levels we have to look at base needs to improve and maintain a strong vigor in order to compete at that level. And going from one level to the other you have to work on the strengh of the foundation in other words improve constent down the line. Past strains met the desire of there founder spread to others who some in turn maintained improved on or such But foudation is that without a strong foundation you destroy what you breed from. To maintain that foundation you breed only from the best useable birds NOt having to be the race winner but the best for future breeding . Many older strains have not been maintained by alot of breeders. The few that have been give credit where it lays . The others they no longer even come close to any past performers from that strain. I could go out today here in America select certion birds and believe I could maintain certion factors to keep a family going. They would end up with my mark on them later. But I also know to that say A person was given a start in the best birds in the world. And then did not know how to or miss managed Those birds soon They would have birds that were of no competive value at all. So we have to manage the birds right to keep them going. And in turn they from time to time produce a bird that keeps a strong line relationship to that intended performance. So a strain name is only as good as the people that breed them In the end sometime the breeder has understand that a raceing homer is a homer but top birds stand out the make up the strain not the name but the birds that improve and improve relationship to todays winners is better then relationship to a winner 30 years ago. each bird on a kept pedigree should show some kind of performance or show reason it was bred from as to stock quality. If the last big named bird is back several generations and no other birds appear to be quality then chances you are breeding lesser kept birds increase. Pedigree is just a breeding record Not a factor if it shows little performance base.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Trentons*

Re Lee,

A local man's "Trentons" come to mind after reading your last post. He has the pedigrees to prove that they are linebred "pure", and the are certainly pretty birds. The problem is they have been used for shows and not racing for quite a while. So last year at my suggestion he started training them for the 2005 race season, along with his regular racers.

You may have guessed what happened.  Out of 20 some young "Trentons", not a sigle bird made it to a race. Their homing ability is completely gone. He was losing them off the landing board, and down the road. Everyone was lost before the races even began. Don't know how many generations that "breeding for show" was taking place, but they lost all sense of direction. 

My point, is along with your point, "Bred for stock" is a red flag. A few here and there, and in no time, you may just have yourself some "Show Birds" that get lost on a five mile training toss !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Good point warren Now I can see a person starting out raiseing a few birds for just stock. but then you have to go to work with the birds testing them. To me it takes 3 years to set up a solid old bird team. from selection. Then you have a number each year that will move up to the team to show there worth there. And it takes 3 years to test a single bird if you look at young bird season, first old bird where that bird is really a yearling then the next where it has now became a full old bird. Not much different then proveing a race horse. the race horse shows its best moment as a 3 year old. From there you find your stock birds tested and proven . Then a breeding chance on the selected birds. A idea is you breed from the bird for 3 years. Look at it hard. have you raised birds that are as good as it is, have you raised birds that perform better then it did. or have you raised only birds that was not as good as it is. If so you remove it from the breeding loft. If it has raised birds only as good as it is remove it. If it raised birds that was better then it is remove it . Why. Well if you have birds now that is bettter peformers you do not need it in the breeding loft you need its off spring. If you have birds that are as good as it is Well you only stayed where you were no improved flying. If you did not produce any that was as good. Well the bird can not improve or keep you at least where you were when it was raceing. Done this way You maintain a higher level off quality. Not done you soon fall off and your birds either hold or reduce in out put performance. Now a bird that is proven prepotent. Is hard to remove from the breeder loft. So you do what. Build a family around that bird. That bird It produces birds that is as good or better over and over. That bird if you look at strain For a key. It has the quality to carry a strain on. Now we look at how many birds raised meet that. 6 years at least went by. lets say we raised 300 birds. and out of 300 maybe 15 were the top birds. then this 1 bird was the top of them all as to breeding worth. And thats figureing 50 per season on young birds. So it easy to say on proven race birds It takes 6 or more years to find a key bird to go forward with. Not a easy job on proper selection if you plan to build a top raceing loft.. Maintaining any strain has to have a solid program. a family of birds makes any strain because a strain is just a family of birds that can repeat its performance over and over. If you made that selection didnt you make the family.


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