# Eggs hatching now, we're not ready, someone call a doctor!



## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Last week my father-in-law found a pair of eggs in an airconditioning unit that was being set on the roof of a commercial building. He saved the eggs and gave them to my 12 year old son Josh. We thought the eggs were freshly laid and have mainly concentrated on finding out how to incubate them, but to our surprise at 10:00pm (5/28/03) one of them is hatching out! We have no food or facts to guide us. My husband went out to buy some baby cereal. At this point we would love some advice quick. Oh Yeah, the baby's name is Peter because we made the nest out of shredded paper and tissues and put the eggs in a wooden pumpkin shell, and there he kept them very well.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good evening & Welcome to Pigeons.com,
Many thanks to your father-in-law for rescuing the eggs. Mom & Dad were not to be found?
The first thing I would suggest is to click on 'resourses', upper right corner. Then click on basic care. This will give you a good idea of what you will need to care for your birds. 
Since there were only two eggs, I am going to assume they are pigeon eggs.
I'm going to close for now so you can read up on how to care for 'Peter' and his sibling.
Please keep us posted on how things are coming along.
Any other questions or concerns? Please post them here & we will assist as best as we can.
Cindy


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello, 

First off check out the "Resources" above.. 

For a baby 1-13 days I usually feed baby bird formula (From a pet shop) with a syringe or a eye dropper.
They are very tiny so you have to be very careful, open the mouth gently with your left hand then with an eye dropper suck up some soupy formula and feed the baby (be sure not to get anything in the hole behind the tongue, That is the windpipe and the baby could easily aspirate and die!) 

Feed until the baby's crop looks full but not too much or else it could come back up and he could aspirate. 

For pigeons you don't have to wake up at night to feed them, I usually just watch the pigeon and when his crop empties I give him another feeding. 

Baby pigeons open their eyes on day 4 or 5

As they get older (about 13 days old) you can switch to either soaked seeds or soaked puppy chow.
I soak wild bird seed for about 4-5 hours then soak it in warm water, drain it and mix abit of baby bird formula with it, Now you can hand feed it to the baby by holding his mouth open with your left hand and scooping and putting it in his mouth with your right hand. He will swallow it. 

With the puppy chow you can soak some pieces in warm water, drain then cut them up and put piece by piece in his mouth and again he will swallow.
Feed until the crop feels squishy, with the seeds it will feel like a beeny baby but it shouldn't feel hard otherwise he is over fed and could aspirate.
At about 15-17 days you can introduce dry seeds, put them around the baby and peck with your finger at them, he should get the idea 

Hope that helps! 

Mary


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Thanks for the advice. We have read through many of the resources sites, but "Peter" came a lot sooner than we expected and we didn't have specific information about newly hatched pigeons. Already we have learned more in the past week than we ever knew before.

My father-in-law had to move the nest to keep it from being destroyed because of the stage of construction.

One more question. We have been incubating the eggs at around 100*F, is this the correct temperature for a chick?

"Peter" finished hatching and seems to be doing well. I fed him some cereal (I haven't made it to the pet store yet) he pooped when I fed him, if he's like a baby, I take that as a good sign.

Chris and Josh


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good morning Chris & Josh.
So glad to hear Peter is doing well.
The resourse section on this site is a great reference. Refer back as often as needed.

I have never had to incubate eggs so I will leave the temp. question to the more experienced member, in that area. 
Please do keep the updates coming.

If you are interested in seeing the growing process of a pigeon, I have a couple photo albums that you might enjoy.
The two with the babies are:
Frank & Jessie & their babies, & Bonnie & Clyde growing up. They can be located at: http://community.webshots.com/user/azwhitefeather 
Click on the album you wish to view then click on 'view slideshow'
Hope you enjoy.
Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

At least 80 degrees for a baby. Here are Devorah's instructions on baby pigeon care:
http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/babypigeoncare.html 

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I asked Helen (Nooti) about this and she says the baby needs specialist care and active enzymes to mix with its food. These are things that the parent birds would provide. Is there anyone near you with experience of hand raising pigeons, or with pigeons that could provide foster care? It really is very important! 

If you could let us know where you are we might be able to link you up with someone.

Cynthia


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hand rearing is not easy. The enzymes they have in their system at birth are not active and therefore they cannot properly
digest any food you put in the crop. They would receive active enzymes from
their parents with the food as they are fed. So they need an artificial
active enzyme, like Panzyme which you get from a vet. This must be mixed
with their food for the first four or five days. After that they are mature enough
to produce their own.
Also, they need natural gut flora introducing into their digestive system so
that they can digest their food properly. These also line the stomach wall
and prevent any nasty bacteria setting up home there and killing your babes.
This, together with an electrolyte rehydrant must be given before any first
meal, and I usually give this about 3 hours after hatching. You will need
specialised tubing to reach into the crop and everything must be steam
sterilised before each meal for the first week. Despite all this at least
60% of babies I hand rear from birth go down with some kind of gut flora
infection within a week and I have to dose with co-trimoxazole, then a
probiotic afterwards.
Also the ratio of food to water in the formula varies with their age. It
must be very dilute for the first few days, then gradually thicken as they
get older. Dehydration and crop stasis occurs if the mixture is too thick,
cold, hot or anything other than the temperature and consistency of the
mixture the parents would be giving them. They need feeding every 2 hours
day and night usually up to a week before they are big enough to go all
night. Sleep through the alarm one night and in the morning you have babes nearly dead of dehydration.
I really do feel like I am being pessimistic here, but I am talking from
experience. Hand rearing from birth is not a job for a novice.It took me a
year of trying and a lot of heart-breaking dead babies before I was
successful. Now I have no problem with them. I wonder if you know of anyone
who keeps pigeons and may this one on for you. Just a thought.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Do you by any chance know anyone near you who keeps pigeons? Because the best bet for these babies would be to have another pair "foster" them. However, the timing has to be right, i.e. they have to be at the right stage to have crop milk for them. I was thinking if someone has pigeons with single babies the same age, or is sitting on fake eggs near the end of the incubation period. Pretty unlikely you'd find someone, I guess, but it would be the chicks' best chance of survival.

Where are you? I have several pairs on fake eggs now. 

-Cathy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Not all pet stores would have the right stuff for a pigeon. Research showed the closest thing to what is known as pigeon milk is the white of a egg. you boil the egg remove the yock use a fork chop up the white add just a little water. Then chop fine to form a milk type solution. warm it slightly use a syringe draw up abou a cc to 2 cc place to back of troat and in ject fast . at three days more will be added as bird gets older. at five days this can be reduced fifty fifty with feed supllement then at seven to eight straight supplement. feeding naeed to be 2 times daily. With a new born just be careful not to trist the beack much whgen you open as this can lead to a crossed beak later. preety safe at one weak though.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Now I am surprised at that. There's very little protein in egg white - certainly nowhere near enough for a rapidly growing body. The yolk has more protein as this has to sustain a growing embryo. Pigeon milk is very high in protein. Just wondered where you saw the research results on this?


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Argh! You guys scare me! I hope Peter doesn't find out about his unlikely future.
Other than that I was going to report that he is "seemly" doing well. He has strarted peeping. He sort of laps up his food when I put the syringe next to his beak and we can see his crop fill. We are feeding him "neo-nate" for smaller birds. It doesn't mention enzymes. We will reread the feeding advice and check and try to find some balance, but admittedly, I'm really at a loss outside of the store bought formulas, which cautions against adding other supplements. 
Peter is growing and his yellow fur/feathers are fuller. I hope he is as healthy as he seems. We all enjoy having him: ugly/cute as he is. Josh says he is not ugly but only cute.
As for someone else near us raising pigeons, I doubt it. We live in the Ozarks of Mo. (woods), and pigeons aren't that prevalent around here, but I could probably find someone raising a baby raccoon. 
How long should I incubate the other egg before giving up on it?
Thanks for the websites you all have given us. They have been very helpful. Wish us luck, and we will keep reading your advice.
Chris and Josh


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello,

I've heard about the egg white thingy quite afew times here at pigeons.com, I tried searching on google but with no results









I'm glad to hear the baby is doing well Chris and Josh, Keep up the good work!










I think you can incubate the remaining egg for another 5 days max and if it doesn't hatch then you can give up.. 
If there is a healthy baby inside then it should hatch very soon.

Mary


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The article came out in a pigeon magaazine about ten or twelve years ago. The was reseash done by a sienctific study as ther has been much different reseach over the years on pigeons. And the closet replacement they found to fit the natural pigeon milk was the egg white. Its properties was near the same as the pigeon produced on its own. The yolk of the egg was not a close or near subject for replacement. And Where in the egg do you find the begining of a fertile egg when candled? and then what is the food source for the unhactched young bird? And I followed the article and did what it said with good resalts so It proves to me to be within the source of a good study that found a close replacement for pigeon milk. After thinking on the above questions do you see that the egg white is what fed it in the egg. and the yolk was the developing bird. But you see in many pet stores food for hook billed young not pigeons. If it works for you then use it If I do it I will use the formula that was researched for pigeon use. And did you read the one about puting contact lences on racing homers to study homing ablity. 1979 this was done and proved eye site eye signs was not a major factor to home by. but mental and polar instinct was more a factor. There is research on pigeons and then it is a documented fact to gain insight. For the raising breeding and futher development of pigeon breeds. same with balanced feeds and what thew do or dont do.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

After thinking on the above questions do you see that the egg white is what fed it in the egg. and the yolk was the developing bird.
************************************
It seems there's more than one person makes this mistake. 
The yolk nourishes the developing chick. It has a high percentage of protein and fat. The white has a much lower percentage of protein and no fat content.
Considering the vast rate of development of an embryo through to hatching chick the white could not sustain that sort of growth rate without a high percentage of fat also.
Also considering the fast growth rate of newly hatched pigeon- that is double the size and weight each day for the first 3 or 4, then crop milk has to contain fats in a good portion, therefore it cannot be consistent with the properties of egg white.
Another factor which bears this out is that nearly everyone knows that when a chick first hatches it has the remains of the yolk absorbed into its abdomen to sustain it with nourishment for the first 24 hours. Now this could not happen if the white was the nourishing factor and the yolk was the chick. It does not bear the evidence out.
I did some research and came up with some properties of these components for comparison.
Pigeon crop milk contains: 75% water, 15% protein, 9% fat and 1% minerals,
Egg white contains: 87% water 10% protein 0% fat 3% minerals 
Egg yolk contains : 48% water 16% protein 30% fat 3% minerals 
Given the evidence I think I would prefer to feed egg yolk rather than the white to any baby bird - not just pigeons. After all, it is a natural food for them!


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Nootie and re lee, you too are funny. My whole family is laughing at your competition. But what should I do about my pigeon?
Chris and Josh


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

But what should I do about my pigeon?
*************************************
Feed it egg yolk! 
Actually - taking a look at the figures - the fat content of yolk is too high - so if you brought up the protien content to a relevant figure by adding meat - such as raw minced beef and liquidising which would mean you increase the water content to a comparable amount - you would have a pretty much ok diet for the first few days.
I may even give that a go myself next time.
Good night - it's going on midnight here in the UK.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

How about a bit of egg white and abit of egg yolk?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just to add some more information and input:

Terry Whatley

MacMilk: Crop Milk Replacer Recipe

1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food
1 hard-boiled egg yolk (16.6 grams)
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)
¼ teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)
247.6 mg calcium carbonate
2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)
1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)
1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)
25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)

For birds days 1 to 3, digestive enzymes (see notes)

Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Allow the digestive enzymes to work on the food for ½ hour before using at room temperature. Warm it to 'wrist' temperature before feeding.

Note: because the replacer offers more calories and is more bioavailable than other diets, you may require less than you are used to feeding. Weigh the bird, calculate its energy
requirements and feed accordingly.

MacMilk® Astrid MacLeod and Janine Perlman, 2001©

NOTES

Vitamins: Vitamin E, as purchased, is too 'strong' for the correction required in this diet. Mix one drop of vitamin E (from a 400 IU/ capsule) with 10 drops of corn oil. Shake or stir well. Then, use 1 drop of the diluted vitamin E in the recipe. The remainder can be kept in an airtight container and stored in a cool, dark place. It can be used over the next few days -. Because vitamin E degrades, it will have to be mixed fresh after a
few days, so don't make too much at once. The amount of B complex required is too small to weigh on a gram scale. The amount required for this recipe is a pinch the size of one sesame seed.

Enzymes: Hatchling doves do not have high enough levels of proteases and other enzymes to digest foods well. Although crop milk is high in protein, as described earlier in this section, some of the protein is in the form of 'free amino acids' - thus, already broken down. This is one of the reasons that raising hatchling doves has been very difficult in the past. We can break down the protein in the crop milk replacer by adding digestive enzymes.

Birds days one to three: digestive enzymes must be added to all hatchling diets, and can be discontinued after day three, when the bird's own digestive enzymes are at higher levels. Pancrezyme can be purchased from a veterinary clinic. Enzymes from the health food store probably will not be effective. Because enzymes are required for hatchling diets and in emaciation protocol, they are good to have on hand.

Method: You will require 1/8 teaspoon of enzymes for one recipe of MacMilk. Mix the enzymes with the food 30 minutes before feeding, to allow the enzymes to work on the food. Do not mix enzymes with the day's ration of food - only with what will be used in the next feeding. Otherwise, the diet will spoil. You will have to estimate how much of a recipe of MacMilk you require per feeding based on the number of hatchlings you have to feed. Then, add the enzymes as needed; for example, if you will be using 1/8th recipe of MacMilk,
use a small pinch of enzymes (1/8th the amount of what is required for the whole recipe). To do this, take the amount of food that you'll need for the next feeding and mix it with the enzymes. Let the food sit for 30 minutes before feeding, so that the enzymes can work on the food.

Columbids Day Four and Later: Discontinue the addition of enzymes to MacMilk. Some species begin to mix crop milk with regurgitated (partially digested) seeds or grains sooner than others. Generally, the rule of thumb might be to use crop milk replacer for at least the first week of life, and begin to gradually mix in other foods
over a period of two weeks. During the first days of new additions, the baby bird will not yet be digesting all the carbohydrates, and the high-protein food is still needed for growth and feathering, thus a gradual changeover is necessary. Good choices might be Exact® with gradual additions of foods like mixed-cereal pablum with an added tablespoon of strained baby food corn. 

Feeding technique: To feed older nestling doves, one method allows the baby to 'root'. Pull up formula in a large feeding syringe and then remove the plunger. Across the wide opening of the syringe (not the tip), stretch a piece of vet wrap or rubber dam (used by dentists) that has a hole to accommodate the bull. Secure well with a rubber band. The bird will thrust its bill into the opening and 'drink', much as it does from its parent. These methods can be
messy until you acquire a technique; wipe up any formula on the baby with a Q-tip dipped in warm water.

Some rehabbers prefer to feed nestling doves and pigeons with a tube and syringe. This does take practice; the tube must slide down the side of the throat without getting any fluid into the tracheal opening. Instructions for tube feeding can be found in the fluid therapy section of this manual. As a rehabilitator's tube-feeding skills develop, the amount of formula the doves take at various ages follows a pattern. Although a rehabilitator may attempt to feed quickly at the height of baby season, haste can have serious consequences. Always go slowly when emptying the contents of the syringe into the bird's crop, especially with newly presented birds. Every so often a dove will have a smaller crop capacity than normal and the excess formula can aspirate the bird.

When using a tube and syringe to feed or hydrate any bird, make sure the tubing is soft and flexible. Medical grade tubing is expensive but worth every penny to prevent harm to delicate tissue in the throat and crop.

To prevent impaction, It is very important that the crop be allowed to fully empty before it is filled again. The crop is very noticeable as a sort of pouch that overlays the breastbone. After feeding, the crop should not be hard to the touch. Feed only enough to fill the crop ¾ full -- this feels similar to a hot water bottle that is ¾ full. An impacted crop results when the crop becomes too full for the normal passage of food.

Since doves have larger crops than gaping birds, they do not have to be fed as often. The rule of thumb for doves in their first week of life would be 4 feedings per day, and as the bird moves towards weaning, going to 3 feedings per day and gradually weaning to 2.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

have your laugh then take what you think is right to feed your bird if it makes it you raised it if not you tried. just thought I would give an idea and several have offered thers rest is up to you. good luck


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Robert,

I think Chris and Josh were just having a little fun .. for sure they are too new at raising babies to be making any serious comments to either you or Helen.

The issue of good nutrition for baby birds whether they are pigeons or another species is very important and different types of birds require different types of nutrition to grow up strong and healthy.

I posted the MacMilk "article" because the people who wrote it have done very extensive research about the nutritional requirements of baby birds. It was posted in the hope that members would read it and learn from it. There is another "article" for passerines where the diet is known as the MacDiet. 

From personal experience in hand raising tiny orphaned squabs, I know that the liquid baby bird formula by itself it not really enough .. they need some extra nutrition in the first week. I don't have a problem with folks feeding baby bird formula but do suggest the addition of additional protein for the first week or so of life .. this can be human baby food .. chicken, turkey, beef, veal and such. 

And, I'm not trying to start a great controversy here, but I am totally convinced that egg white would not be sufficient for raising healthy baby pigeons. Perhaps the addition of some egg white as well as egg yolk to the formula would be beneficial, but egg white by itself .. no not enough to sustain the baby.

Terry Whatley


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Terry's right Robert. They are laughing at us but not in a malicious way. We deal with very serious issues on this board with plenty of sadness and heartbreak. How nice if we can raise a smile on someone's face while they are learning how to care for a little one.


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Maybe I should explain, we can't wait to read the latest post and we are all enjoying it. When I say lauging, I mean it, but not in an unkind way. This is exciting and informative, but I have no experience to make educated decisions. 

Meanwhile, back at the pumpkin shell, Peter is doing pretty well, but I do think I will try adding some protein. I really wish I had ever even seen a baby pij before in person, so I could say "he's right on track", but...He seems to be doing well, he lets us know when he wants to eat by peeping and eats eagerly and then just stops when he's full and falls asleep. Like a baby human, I understand that much.
I will look closely at the pictures of baby Sara to compare.

Sorry Nooti to mispell your name.
Thanks again to everybody for all the input and entertainment.
Chris and Josh


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Sorry Nooti to mispell your name.
*********************
Did you?
I hadn't noticed!
My brain only processes important information and a little thing like my name just gets waved aside! 
Glad he seems to be doing ok - but a high protein content is important. Red meat is best. Poultry has a lower protein content - try a beef dinner baby food.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good morning Chris & Josh,
Would it be possible to get a picture of Peter & post it? That may help us, as well, in determining his age. 
I have learned so much since Whitefeather came into my life. You think YOU don't have any knowledge of raising a baby pij. Think again. lol. 
The story of me & Whitefeather would probably turn Helen's hair gray. I didn't have a clue of what I was doing & was not yet blessed with this site. So....
Hang in there, take heed of all advice sent your way, however, pay particular attention to the advice of Nootie, Terry, Mary & Fred as they have dealt with ill & injured pigeons for many years. 
Please keep us posted.
Cindy 

[This message has been edited by AZWhitefeather (edited May 31, 2003).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You can click on the link to baby Sara's pictures on the home page here at pigeons.com to see a wonderful series of pictures detailing Sara's development from tiny baby to beautiful bird.

Terry Whatley


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I have 2 babies that just hatched yesterday morning on my balcony.. I'll try to get a picture everyday so you can see how they grow, babies that are raised by humans grow slower but don't worry they will end up fatter and chubbier than a feral by time they are full grown









Mary


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hi, I got some pics.. Sorry about the quality of the photo, they usually come out good but the window is right there and the light keeps shining off it.
Also the father won't get off so I could only get 1 pic of them alone.

Day 1: http://community.webshots.com/photo/56995112/75071933KeNABL 

Day 2: http://community.webshots.com/photo/56995112/75071963HraxRn http://community.webshots.com/photo/56995112/75071991iRaxrG 


Mary


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

OK we took some quick pictures. I followed Mary's lead and posted them on the webshots page that she used. http://community.webshots.com/user/joshaway4491 
I hope that get you there. It's also new to me.
We fed Peter some egg yolk-mostly, a bit of egg white (I hope it was supposed to be boiled) a bit of cooked ground beef, smashed as much as possible (I'll pick up some baby food meat tonight) and mixed all that together, added water and mixed with half his formula. He took it.
the MacMilk recipe looks promising, but I have only half the ingredients, I'll see what I can get in town. 
I hope the pictures are useful, but I hope you don't discover something awful, like he's really a cowbird! Ha ha. He ate right after the pictures were taken.
Thanks,
Chris and Josh


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wonderful pictures! Thanks so much for sharing them with us. Yep, Peter is definitely a little pigeon .. very, very cute.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

The pictures are wonderful. Thanks.
"Josh, you are doing a fine job of helping your Mom care for Peter."
He reminds me of Bonnie & Clyde (not the outlaws, lol) Frank & Jessie's babies.
Be sure to have the camera ready & the battery charged as they grow so fast.
Cindy


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello, 

He is very cute!








Be sure to keep the fabric around the baby nice and snuggly- This will help keep his legs in the right position so he won't develope splayed legs (Which is not good at all)... Also when he is this small try not to handle him too much, at about 4-5 days old his eyes will open and then he will be able to see you.
At this age the baby will start to think you are his parents and will be able to recognize the hand of the person who is feeding him. 
I hope you will consider keeping him as a pet (Pigeons make WONDERFUL pets!!







) 

Mary


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

funny you should mention keeping him tucked in because I keep noticing that he turns himself over alot and I was wondering if that was normal. I will put more stuffing around him and keep his legs and wings tucked neatly beneath him.
Thanks
Chris and Josh
PS I think I heard pecking inside the egg, but then I heard nothing so it may have been wishful thinking. We'll see.


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## justcockatiels (Jun 1, 2003)

Hi, This is my first visit to this board and I found this thread very interesting. I breed cockatiels, and as far as young and their needs there are some basic needs that are universal between all species of birds. 

As to digestive enzymes...PROZYME...which can be ordered from www.omahavaccine.com (or do an internet search for PROZYME) is a good product. Sometimes you can find it at the larger feed stores. With the Prozyme, all you need is a tiny pinch. The Prozyme helps to predigest the food, and once in the digestive tract it aids in nutrient absorption. Prozyme can also be very benefical when the chick gets severely dehydrated and there is slower gut transit due to a slight impaction. Combined with electrolytes (use rice base if yeast/candidia is suspected)it can be a good aid in breaking up any blockages.

As to probiotics there are many on the market targeted towards different types of birds. 'Plain' yogurt works just as well, and in fact better than most of the commercial probiotics. 

I don't have the link, but you can do an internet search for: Roudybush This company makes several different types of formula...and they have 2 formulas for squabs. Their formula helped to nourish and save an egg that someone found, and my birds incubated and hatched, and turned out to be a ringneck dove.

As to feeding the chick what worked best for me was cutting the flared end off of the end of a Urological Catheter and slipping it on the end of a syringe. This allowed for a large opening like a funnel the baby could stick it's beak in to suck up the formula as I released it from the syringe. Here is a link that shows the catheter (the long red tubing) which you can find at most medical supplies or order from www.feedingtech.com (They used to carry the Roudybush formulas, I'm not sure if they do anymore, but could probably special order.) http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1697854&a=30700049&f=0 

The topic of the egg white and yolk was very interesting. I do know from working with alot of assist hatches that most of the literature is very general and states for just about 'every type' of bird that the chick uses the absorbed egg in 24 hours. Yet if you look at the abdomen of the chick in reality it can take up to 2-7 days (depending on the sizeand species). The yolk is very high in protein and that should be balance out the ratio if the egg white crop milk replacer was used. Also one of the most important things the chick derives from the internalized yolk is 'passive humoral immunity' The yolk is also an important source of cells for the developement of the immune system, in addition to the passive immunity/protection of infectious pathogens. 

Yeast another thing that tends to be problematic which babies no matter the species. The birds that have crops are more prone. Stress and chilling tend to be one of the main culpret to an sudden over growth of yeast in the crop. The probiotics/yogurt are beneifical to help reduce some of the pathogenic levels in the GI tract. Changing the pH in the crop with a drop of vinegar (or if very yound dilute 1 drop on 5 drops of water, and add 1 drop to every other feeding) will help if budding yeast has started to adhere to the crop wall, or there is slower crop movement. Global Pigeon: www.globalpigeon.com has a powdered Nystatin called Medistatin which very good if actual yeast problems arise.

I wish you luck with your little one. 

And this is a real nice board. I don't have pigeons 'yet'...I am owned by 400 cockatiels. I stopped by to look up some info for a friend that has a pigeon that flew in a few years ago, and has been living in her large lovbird flight. He now want's to mate, and had an 'indenity crisis' and I was going to look at the photo gallery to find out what type of pigeon he is (white, with grey spots, and a tufted feathers around the neck that curl up)and see if I can find a breeder in S. Florida that would have a mate for him.

Susanne...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hello Susanne and welcome to pigeons.com! It's very nice of you to have taken the time to write such an informative post for us.

Your friend's bird may be an Old Dutch Capuchine .. they are quite beautiful.

Terry Whatley


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## justcockatiels (Jun 1, 2003)

Hi Terry...and thanks for the welcome!

When I was looking at the link to the Gallery...the pigeon in the upper left corner (or right if you are pointing at the picture)is similar to Karens pigeon. When young he was almost all white and as he got older (now 4) he got more and more grey spots and patches on him. I can try to take a digital pix of him in the next day or so. Can photo's be posted?

Here is some links to some of my birds (sorry, no pigeons yet) Alot of what they taught me along the way in my ventures of breeding tend to be aplicable with other species of birds...


Susanne Russo Ft. Lauderdale, Florida 
Website (Under construction) http://www.justcockatiels.com 
On-line Photo Albums: http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1697854


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Susanne,

I'm not sure what type of pigeon that is in the gallery. I'll ask Carl (Bigbird) who is the owner of this site. You won't be able to post pics of the bird in need of a mate here, but you can put them in your epson album and then just post us the link. Meanwhile, I'll ask on another list about that black and white pigeon in the Gallery photos.

Terry Whatley


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## justcockatiels (Jun 1, 2003)

Thanks...A few years back someone had said it was some type of Japanese or Chinese type of fancy pigeon.

It is banded, but Karen had never checked out the band. 

He is actively trying to court any lovebird he can get near. He is mounting the quail. And he found him a little cubbyhole on the ground between a teepee of tree branches and is guarding it like a nest. I'm not sure he even knows he's a pigeon...

Susanne


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Hello everyone.
Peter is doing fine. He raises up his head and opens his beak to be fed, and misses, and the both of us get covered in more food than he eats. Motherhood. 
I discarded the other egg. It was "leaking". At first I thought someone had handled it with spagetti sauce on their hands, but... then it kept changing color, and... see where I'm going.
Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone for all of the information. I have printed it and will keep it handy, and keep you all advised on his progress, but this "thread" is getting pretty long so I will start a new line as PETER'S PROGRESS next report. And I will keep reading as this has become very interesting. 
As for keeping him as a pet, we'll see. I have three boys and we live in the country, so you can imagine the pets they bring home and always want to keep. Plus we have a cat that thinks everything smaller that a dog is a challenge to his authority, and dogs are furniture.
My oldest son keeps asking how the "duck" is doing just to annoy Josh.
Well I should go, it's feeding time, AGAIN.
Chris (and Josh)


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello,

Just one last thing.. If you decide to keep him as a pet that would be great but if you don't then you must raise him with as little interaction as possible otherwise he will become tame to you and there is no way he can live in the wild.

His eyes should be opening very soon now if they haven't already and at this stage he will start to think of you (the person who is feeding him) as his mother.. 
If he is to be released then he needs to be in a quite area away from any noise of people at all times. And at feeding time it's best to stay as silent at possible. 

When he is about 15 days old try introducing wild bird seed to him so he can learn to eat early. Then you can try to find a wild flock and try taking him there once a day or so to mix with the others (even if he is in a cage, simply put it on the ground and scatter some seeds around so he can watch the other birds eat) Then when it's time for release you can try opening the door and seeing if he will go along with the others- if he comes back into the cage then try again the next day and soon he should leave on his own when he is ready..

Again I'm not trying to say that you must release him - If you choose to keep him as a pet then that would be wonderful and you can talk/play with him as you like because then he will be a very very tame bird.

I raised a baby once from about 4 days old and he was a very sweet and loving bird, he thought of himself as human and he would have NEVER survived in the wild this is why it is very important to raise the bird as a wild bird if you are to release him.


Mary


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bumping up for Avril


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Bumping up for dveteto......


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Bumping up for maxou !


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Bumping up for the MacMilk recipe.

Terry


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## BirdDogg10 (Aug 23, 2005)

*Tory's journal(Unwritten*

Hey Josh I'm sorry to hear about Peter I know how you feel I lost my 11 year old Beagle mix Sienna, last September. She was my best friend we adopted her 1993 we think she was beagle and collie mix beacause she looked like a mix of the two. But since then My sister got a Pug puppy he's 7 weeks old his name is Bentley. He's a nice dog, very cute and always into something. My Friend Lana owns several pigeons in her backyard, their names are Dodie(Girl), Jerry(Boy), Rosy(Girl), Max(Boy) and she has a few others one of my favorites is Mo he's Jerry's & Dodie's son he bites sometimes but I guess that's because he doesn't know any better.

Lana recently got 2 new pigeons their brown pigeons their names are Kiki(Girl) and Stevie(Boy), she said they would breed in about a week or so she said I could keep one of the Chicks after their born. I've even picked out a name "Tory" I was NEVER into writing stories but since I started writing in 2000 I plan to write autobiographies on all my pets and some of My friends pets but I 'm writing them all from the pet's point of view as in the story is told by them. Maybe you should do the same thing for Peter I wrote Sienna's autobiography when she was alive and she seemed to like the fact that I was talking about her only if we were in the same room together, If Peter was around & when he got older he probably would have liked it too. I hope you read Tory's autobiography it's titled "Tory's Journal" look for it on www. FictionPress.com 

from BirdDogg10 PS:If you want to read My current fan fiction story go to www.Fanfiction.net My author name is greendog1991


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