# Distance, Speed, and Body Type



## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

This post contains some questions I have been thinking about since I picked up a few homers. It has been years since I have had any.

I know very little about flying racing homers. I had some as a kid, and again when i was in my thirties. I have recently gotten a few more, and would like to start flying them. I think the furthest distance I had ever flown the earlier birds was about thirty or forty miles.

I raised only rollers for years, and I believe in rollers body type does contribute to better performance, but that performance is totally different than what is expected from homers.

The birds I had when I was young were about the size of a common pigeon. The birds I had in my thirties were only slightly larger. They came from a man that I was told did fairly well racing them. The next time I encountered racing homers was in the mid 90s at the home of a man that was big into the racing game. These birds seemed huge to me.

I have been wondering why the birds size was increased, and what body type did for speed and distance. I don't know why it could be something I read or it could also be something I just dreamed up, but I have always thought of long distance birds as being what I call raw boned. I would describe that as being taller with longer cast and not appearing as heavily muscled as the birds I am seeing today.

What effect does the larger body have on speed? What effect does it have on distance? 

Do you see a particular body type that produces more speed? 

Do you see a body type that is better suited to the longer distances?

Do you see a body type more suited to the short sprint races?


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Chuck,

*Good Questions,*

I do have some answers for you but would like to hear other thoughts before I post.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Generally a bigger bird with wider flight feathers , strong wing resistance when you extend they would be your sprinters. Medium to smaller size would be your middle to distance birds. Birds that will lay their wing in your hand would give you the impression of a distance bird. I personally don't like the skinny tall birds or very big heavy ones. I like a bird that struggles in your hands, which can show it strength. Narrow flight feathers would indicate more distance ability. Well muscled chest is never a bad thing, I think some people would say apple shape and a one pin tail straight out is my favorite.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

More 500-600mi. Winners are named Peanut for a reason.. Hap


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Happy said:


> More 500-600mi. Winners are named Peanut for a reason.. Hap


Happy, I'm not following the reference to peanut. What does that mean in racing homers? Roller guys that refer to peanut are usually referring to peanut heads to indicate pin heads.  



ERIC K said:


> Generally a bigger bird with wider flight feathers , strong wing resistance when you extend they would be your sprinters. Medium to smaller size would be your middle to distance birds. Birds that will lay their wing in your hand would give you the impression of a distance bird. I personally don't like the skinny tall birds or very big heavy ones. I like a bird that struggles in your hands, which can show it strength. Narrow flight feathers would indicate more distance ability. Well muscled chest is never a bad thing, I think some people would say apple shape and a one pin tail straight out is my favorite.


Eric, It is interesting that you say apple shape, and one feather tail. That description is the exact body type and tail width that most roller fanciers are pursuing. Even the old roller guru, Bill Pensom, believed that to be the best body shape for a performing roller. I like that shape in the rollers. It seem to give the best performance.

The homers that I was referring to as raw boned aren't necessarily skinny. They usually have a longer neck and more upright stance, but the chest is still fairly well developed although not heavily muscled. I have a couple of this type, but the only pictures I have of them are when they were young. They are both cocks, and they have filled out considerably since those pics were taken. I'll try to get some new pictures taken and post them so that folks can see what I'm referring too.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Hi Chuck, So many of us have been so surprised for the Distance (500-600mi.) our best birds were Smaller, so hence the name Peanut given to them. Med. to Small by a big percentage are the Long Distance Champ. We have all had a Bigger bird do well in the Distance, just that it is usually a one time thing, not year after year Champion.. Larger Bodied birds just are better off at 100-350mi.. The Janssen "Type" Pigeon with there large breast took over the Short-Middle Distances. Course today Long Distance is on it's way out with the New Generation of Pigeon Flyers. I call it the Cell Phone Generation So unless your Lucky enough to have a Combine that Favors Long Distance a person might as well have the Janssen Type Bird. I have had to adjust to this. There are many birds of this Type now. The best birds of all in my opinion are Med. size that Feel bigger Bodied but Don't weigh much. This same bird will not over eat & Beef up in the off season. I like birds that can fly a full 3-6 yrs. & still be able to win, or be in the Hunt not just get fat. as Fat Birds don't Win, or seldom....... Enough tonight.. Happy


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification, Happy.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

This is one of my new breeders for next year , this shape is what I like.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

what would you call this body and what distance?
hes extra large


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My best sprinter is named, "Walnut". I bred him to my 100 mile champion, "Brazilian Nut". Pecan was my 150mile winner. Bred him to Hazle......nut.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Chuck K said:


> This post contains some questions I have been thinking about since I picked up a few homers. It has been years since I have had any.
> 
> I know very little about flying racing homers. I had some as a kid, and again when i was in my thirties. I have recently gotten a few more, and would like to start flying them. I think the furthest distance I had ever flown the earlier birds was about thirty or forty miles.
> 
> ...


It seams some of the PT members want to pretend that body type and the conformation of a racing pigeon doesn't matter. The rest of us know that form fallows function. A long distance bird will be built different than a speed bird in body and wing feathers.

The birds you had when you were young were bred more for the long races and as old bird racers. Back then young birds were trained out and raced mainly to get them ready for the old bird races when they matured. Some of those birds would take 3 years to reach their peak. Now things have flipped and the big money and focus has become the young birds. Now young birds mature faster and the larger, apple body, big chested young birds are starting to give way to a little smaller more streamlined bird as the young bird focus is going more to 350 and even 400 mile young bird races in the one loft races.


A larger more apple bodied bird with wider primary flights tends to do better from short to middle distance. 

A more streamlined longer cast bird with thinner primary flights tend to do better at the distance.

*blongboy*, Because of the build and size of the bird it is most likely a speed to middle distance bird (100-300) in young bird races. If I wanted to stick my neck out any further I would say his best performances between 100 and 200 miles as a young bird.


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## heeler (Nov 19, 2013)

hillfamilyloft said:


> My best sprinter is named, "Walnut". I bred him to my 100 mile champion, "Brazilian Nut". Pecan was my 150mile winner. Bred him to Hazle......nut.


That's pretty funny, I thought I was the only one that called breeders by a name. Most I've heard call them by the band number...mine are named after cowboys and Indians.
Doc Holiday
Blue Duk
Johnny Ringo
Billy the Kid
Red Bull 
Gus
I plan on having some race winners to carry on the names too but we'll see.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

ace in the hole said:


> It seams some of the PT members want to pretend that body type and the conformation of a racing pigeon doesn't matter. The rest of us know that form fallows function. A long distance bird will be built different than a speed bird in body and wing feathers.
> 
> The birds you had when you were young were bred more for the long races and as old bird racers. Back then young birds were trained out and raced mainly to get them ready for the old bird races when they matured. Some of those birds would take 3 years to reach their peak. Now things have flipped and the big money and focus has become the young birds. Now young birds mature faster and the larger, apple body, big chested young birds are starting to give way to a little smaller more streamlined bird as the young bird focus is going more to 350 and even 400 mile young bird races in the one loft races.
> 
> ...




For the most part very well put!

But think of it this way with humans as the example:

Elongated skinney runners are typically your distance runners as they can set a pace and continue for miles and miles on marthon type runs. 

While the more muscular runners are typically spinters, they are extremily fast on the short sprints up to a couple hundred yards but after that they cannot keep up the pace.

I say typically because as others have already stated you will see on occasion a sprinter take a long distance race or vica versa a distance runner take a short race. 

With your birds in these types of races you have to look closely, was it a blow home race for the sprinter on the distance race, or was it a realy tough hard sprint race where the distance bird won..... I believe you will typically find that these are the cases when a non typical bird for the type of race flown wins.


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## carrera mike (Nov 15, 2014)

Chuck K said:


> .....
> 
> Do you see a particular body type that produces more speed?
> 
> ...



_Do you see a body type more suited to the short sprint races?_

*Jansens - original Jansens were raced for 180miles and shorter
Hercules, Van Loons & Ver Voorts* - you can google -image search these blood lines to see their body shapes 

_Do you see a body type that is better suited to the longer distances?_

*De Rauw-Sablons are for Long Distance races 600-700+miles. their body and wings are longer. Here are some pictures*


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Thanks for the replies guys.

Ace, You are right about the birds I had as a kid. They were built like all of you are describing the distance birds.

Lawman, I have been reading a lot of articles on the one loft races, and it makes a lot of sense that conditions would also dictate the type of birds that would win or even make it home at all in some of the races that unexpected tough conditions were encountered on race day.

Mike, One think I noticed about the birds in your pictures was that on average the wings were longer than most of the birds that I own. I had been looking at the wings on these birds and comparing them to wings on my rollers. The rollers usually have a wing that is almost as long as the tail, and a lot of these homers seem to be quite a bit short of the tail. I suspect they were bred out of short distance birds.

I really want to breed some birds that can go longer distances. From the information the folks here posted I think I have a few that I should concentration on using in the breeding loft, and quite a few more that are just around for the fun of loft flying. I just need to get relocated to an area that I can start putting up some youngsters.

Thanks


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## carrera mike (Nov 15, 2014)

Chuck, if you are serious about long distance racing acquire pure De Rauw -Sablons


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Chuck K,

For distance I would recommend the Spainjards, huskens van reils, or Jan-Ardens, there are still some who have Waterhouse Bekearts as well. These could all do and excell at the distance but be certain to obtain stock from those who are actually still winning at the distances no matter what bllodlines you chose to go with. 

Stay away from those who claim to have decendants of the old 1000 mi birds, because thats what your getting just decendants that in most cases havent even been flown to the 300 let alone out to 500 or 600 mi


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

carrera mike said:


> _Do you see a body type more suited to the short sprint races?_
> 
> *Jansens - original Jansens were raced for 180miles and shorter
> Hercules, Van Loons & Ver Voorts* - you can google -image search these blood lines to see their body shapes
> ...


Be aware of Pipa photos and any others that have been sculpted in photoshop. They will not give you a true representation of what a bird looks like.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Kastle Loft said:


> Be aware of Pipa photos and any others that have been sculpted in photoshop. They will not give you a true representation of what a bird looks like.


It makes it tough for the new guys who buy birds on line. All they have to go by is a photo shopped picture and a questionable pedigree.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Good point about the photos. I have been watching the iPigeon, and PigeonAuctions.com and trying to judge some of the birds from the photos.
It never occurred to me that the photos might be doctored.

I'm not really ready to commit to getting any good racing stock just yet anyway. I just retired a couple of months back, and I am trying to locate a home away from this Houston area nightmare. I am not supposed to even be keeping pigeons in this stinking HOA neighborhood. I have not been able to fly the rollers or the few homers I have for fear of being targeted and made to get rid of my birds.


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

I like Lawman's comparison to body types of athletes and agree with most said by all. I remember reading famous trainers like Janssen brothers saying never breed big with big or small with small. I think when a so called short distance bird does well long or vice versa, the loft owner needs a pat on the back along with weather or any other reasoning. He did his job! Health, loft conditions, feed, and training makes a good bird shine when the odds are against him. I'm still trying to figure that part out, and I am!! Jim


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