# How old are these chicks?



## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi, I'm a new poster here, looking for some advice. I've read a lot here already and have a few more questions.

Yesterday I found 2 pigeon chicks in my horse's stall and the mother (I assume) laying dead in the next stall. I would guess she died of some sort of disease, since there wasn't a mark on her. I put her in the burn pile and she's gone now to reduce chances of spreading whatever may have killed her.

The chicks have a lot of feathers and some yellow fluff here and there. The grey one is real active and the boss of the 2, the black one is quiet and doesn't eat as much, but she does eat. They don't seem sick or anything, but the black one is quieter. Are they too young to tell what sex they are? They don't really fly, but run and flap. The bigger one can get a airborne, but just a few inches off the ground.

First I am wondering how old do they look to you? How soon can I expect them to eat from a bowl on their own? They don't seem to want to drink water and I have dipped their beaks in warm water. I have chickens, so I took some chick starter feed and added water to make a paste and fed it with a 60 cc syringe with the tip cut off. They had a little trouble with that, so I watered it down more and that went better. That way they get some water in. They are putting their beaks in the syringe where the tip was cut off and eating it themselves. I'm not trying to shove anything down their throats.

I don't want to sound impatient, but when and how do I try to get them to eat on their own?

Is chick starter nutritious enough for them to eat or do I need to go get something else?


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## sdymacz (Aug 30, 2010)

About five weeks old, You can start them on solid seeds. Put some seed in a small bowl and tap your finger to simulate pecking, same for water. In a week they should eat on their own and in two should be on the wing.
How do the feathers look under the wing on the body, if is a small bold spot a week before taking up in air


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sulee, they are at an age they can definitely start to be weaned. You have the right idea with the syringe, but you need to slice the entire end off and covered with a piece of latex/rubber glove and an elastic band, as the hole you made is not big enough for them to get much. They look to be about 4 weeks old, give or take, and they look like they are undernourished, so you will need to support them with the syringe for the next few weeks, even once they start getting the hang of eating on their own. At each feeding they should be getting 20-25mL of food and they will need this 3-4 times a day (make the food not too thick), you need to pick up a bag of either wild bird seed or pigeon/dove mix for the to learn to self feed with. Here is a link with some information on feeding in the middle there are a few links on feeding with a syringe. I am concerned about the dead adult, might be the father, as the father spends more time with them at this age. Can you have a look in their mouth and see if you see any growths and also post up a photo of their fresh droppings.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/rescued-feral-help-please-48513.html#post522672

I won't lie and tell you they'll be on their own in a matter of days, but in 2-3 weeks they should be getting there, if not there.

Good luck with them,

Karyn


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

I haven't really looked that closely under the wings. I will do that tomorrow.

Thanks for the info on the syringe! I'll get that fixed too. I'm sure that will help the feedings go better! I didn't notice anything obvious in their mouths, but will try and take a look tomorrow. Do the growths indicate some sort of infection or virus? The babies don't seem ill, just a little depressed maybe? I'm not familiar with how pigeon chicks would act. Definitely quieter than young chickens! They have nice bright eyes.

I also haven't seen any droppings yet. They were roaming around in a 12X12 box stall all day. Now they are sleeping in a pet carrier, so I will be able to take a pic of the droppings in the morning. 

Thanks so much for your help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The growths would be indicative of an protozoa infection pigeons can get called canker, easily treatable with a med called Metronidazole (Flagyl). They may just be fine, but the dead adult is unusual, so we want to go over them a bit and make sure they are OK.

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

wow ! your a cool person... an amimal person obviousley.. what a nice thing to do for the pigeons. In the last picture I find it neat that your jeans and shoes match the pigeon's purple/blue shine on his neck.. just an observation..lol..


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

lol! Thank you Spirit Wings! I try to coordinate my clothes as much as possible! Just kidding! I do love animals and hate to see any suffering. I've never run across any Pigeons needing help and I'm so glad to have found you all!

Sdymacz, I did look under the wings and only see baby fluff... Just to be sure there wasn't a typo, am I looking for a small bold spot of another color or a small bald spot? The light grey one flies close to the ground and flies up to my lap to eat. (I finally put a chair in the stall so I'm comfortable)

I have more questions... Yesterday when I came out to feed, there were 3 babies in the stall. As I entered the area, the new one took off and flew up to the rafters. It looked to be about the same size as these 2 and not an adult. Do you think they just visit each other or could this be a littermate (Maybe that's not the word for sibling) that another bird is caring for? It was the same size and similar dark grey coloring, but much more agile and flies much better. Maybe it was just a flooky thing... I haven't seen it happen since.

Here is the bad news, the darker one that was weaker died last night. It didn't want to eat the last feeding of the day and I knew it wouldn't make it. This lighter grey one is still enthusiastic about eating, so hope he makes it!

The poop is watery and I don't have a picture of it because there is nothing to photograph. It's water. The baby seems to only want very watered down mush. once the liquid is gone, he squeaks at me and shakes his wings? Does the wing shaking mean anything? Almost like tremors. Once I get it the right consistency, he starts gobbling again. I suppose I'll need to feed more often than recommended since it's watered down? I added some chicken vitamins today too. 

I have Corid on hand if that will help. It's for coccydiosis (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) in chickens. 

He isn't interested in drinking water or pecking. Also today, I noticed he stumbled after he flew down from my lap. He landed fine in the straw and then stumbled twice forward as he was walking. But maybe he just tripped on the straw? I just thought I would mention it in case it's a symptom of anything.

Thank you for any suggestions and your help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sulee, I am sorry to hear that one of the babies has died, this with the dead adult, IMO, points to perhaps an undiagnosed illness in this family, plus your small mentions on the remaining one, the watery droppings and the stumbling, while in themselves not a huge deal, but this little red flag when combined with the dead adult and the passing of its sibling, I think needs headed. They lay eggs in twos' so the other bird would not be a sibling, but could be the mother (can you get a photo of the other bird?).

The trembling of the wings when feeding is natural feeding behavior and is normal, what temperature are you feeding the mush at? Would you happen to have any Sulmet or Albon around, besides the Corid (is the Corid the liquid or the powder?), or any type of antibiotics.

Karyn


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

I haven't seen the new bird since the first time. It looked to be another young one and didn't fly like an adult.

Is there somewhere to look for how to make the food for him? This guy doesn't like what I'm making anymore... I am using warm water so the mush is warm, that helps. But he is real picky. I think it has to be a certain consistency or something. Maybe he doesn't like chicken feed.

I don't understand how to get him to drink water or eat seeds on his own. How I'm doing it isn't working. Unless he's too young to learn yet?

I'm feeding chick starter crumbles and just bought some wild bird seed. Do I need to crush the seed and mix with water? Or just mix as it is?

He can now fly to my shoulder from the ground.

Also, I was reading another thread about someone making a pet of their pigeon and someone said they almost had to keep taking care of it now that it is bonded... is that true? I was hoping he would learn to fly and join his wild friends and relatives in the barn! If he lives, learns to fly and eat and drink on his own, will he be able to join the rest of the group? Will he be more of a "sitting duck" so to speak for my barn cats now? 

I've been trying not to tame him, but just feeding, cleaning and leaving him alone in case the other bird wants to come keep him company. 

He does come when I whistle so I don't have to try and chase him down. I hope that wasn't too much taming, but he just knows I have the food!

Is there somewhere to read up on how to make food and how to teach him to eat and drink on his own? I tried searching and I'm not finding anything.

Thanks again for any help!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

These guys are old enough to be fed frozen peas and corn which have been defrosted and warmed under warm running water. You want them to be nice and warm, not hot. You would hold the bird on your lap, and against your stomach. Open their beak and put in the pea. Push it to the back of the throat, and let go of his beak. He should swallow. They will learn to pick these up after a few feedings. They are easier to pick up than seed. Once they learn to do this, then picking up seed will follow. Feeding this way is very easy.


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you! I'll try that in the morning! 
How about teaching to drink water? I guess I'm never satisfied! lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Put water in a small crock or small dish. Gently guide his beak into the water, but not over his nose. After a while he will learn.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sulee said:


> Is there somewhere to read up on how to make food and how to teach him to eat and drink on his own? I tried searching and I'm not finding anything.
> 
> Thanks again for any help!


Sulee, in the first message I posted to your thread there is a link I gave you to help you with feeding and weaning. At the bottom of the page there are instructions on how to get them eating and drinking on their own, plus there is a YouTube link higher up on the page showing the feeding of seeds in a small bottle, with a slit, once they get the feel of food in their mouth and swallowing it will not take them long to get food off the ground, or out of a bowl on their own (but do peck with him with your finger as instructed, it's fun ) and you can also spread some of the warmed peas around as well, as sometimes larger food items are easier for them to pick up and swallow.

There are people who have in between birds, birds they have hand raised that live in the wild that are still friendly to them, so if he integrates with the others, but still knows you, there will no real harm done. More problematic in the city for a people friendly bird, as there are people with less than kind hearts that would kick or hit a pigeon that got too close.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks Karyn! I did read the first links about syringe feeding and must have missed the last ones! I gave him some peas and seeds and he loves it! Yay! This will make caring for him so much better and easier! He still doesn't like drinking water, but has had a few sips. Only when I try to get him to, never on his own yet. 

Is there anything I shouldn't give him to eat? I don't have just frozen peas, but frozen mixed veggies. So there are carrots, corn, lima and green beans in there besides the peas. If I chop up the other things, is it ok to feed that too for a little variety? 
If not, is there a reason I couldn't give canned peas?
He LOVES the peas and is sort of so-so about wild bird seed.

That would be great if he could be with his pigeon crew and then visit me every now and then! Just so he doesn't think the cats are friendly. I will also feel real sorry for him when it gets to be 30 below zero! I'm in ND. 

I wonder if pigeons and chickens make each other sick or could live together? I heat my chicken coop in the winter and have an area that he could share with the silkies which are small, non aggressive and don't fly. Only the area is small and he wouldn't be able to stretch out and fly. Just enough to do little hop flies. But at least he'd be warm! Any thoughts on that? I'm thinking positive that he won't die of whatever killed his Mom or the sibling.

Another question... can anyone tell if this is a male or female? It's the lighter grey one in the pics.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You're doing a good job. Keep trying to get him to drink. He'll catch on. The good thing about giving the peas, rather than just the seed, is that they do contain some moisture. I wouldn't give him the other vegetables, other than the carrots, chopped fine. Do you think you could pick up some frozen peas and corn? The canned kind would be okay if you are stuck, just until you get the frozen ones. But not for long, as they contain too much salt.

As far as pigeons living with chickens, not a good idea. Yes, they can pass illness between them, and chickens can and do hurt pigeons. And there is no way of knowing if it's a male or female.


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks Jay3 for your answers. I'm out in the boonies, so I was trying to make due with what I had on hand, but tomorrow I'll be going into town, so I'll pick some frozen peas up. 

I was kind of thinking chickens and pigeons would be getting each other sick. But when I was searching for food topics, I saw a post on this board, maybe under one of the other headings, saying about keeping pigeons in with chickens. But they ma have had a huge barn or something, not a little coop like i have.

There aren't any male or female characteristics to look for? I was hoping it was like chickens with feathers going a certain way or instead of a comb, the thing on the nose gets bigger or something. 

He did take a drink on his own tonight! Kind of dove in and didn't realize what he was in for! He almost dunked his whole head, poor little guy! But he went ina few more times for another drink, so must not have bothered him! Whew! Thanks again for the help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds like you are doing a good job, as mentioned, frozen peas would be preferred as they don't have the added salt, keep working with him with the seeds, and may introduce him to chicken scratch as well, what ever his parents would have been eating around your place, so he recognizes it as food. Also sounds like he is getting the hang of drinking as well .

Pigeons can withstand very cold, sub zero temperatures, what helps is that they have a place to get out of the wind/wet snow and if they are living in your barn they should do just fine in the coldest temps.

How is he looking in general, droppings and so on, gaining weight, bright and active? Must keep a close eye on him because of the deaths in his family.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Drinking on his own! That's great!


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Update! Wow, what a difference when I look at the pics from when I first found them! The little guy is doing well, he is active and trying to flap his wings and fly. He flies short distances but maybe he can fly 100%... just no room in the house to give it a try. 

So my new question is, do I dare take him back out to the barn yet? My concerns are temps and cats. The indoor temp is around 68-70 and outdoor temps are 40-60's, depending on time of day. The barn cats worry me as far as if this guy can fly well enough to let loose. I do have a stall I had him in that I can take him back to... but if he can only fly well enough to get himself in trouble by flying out and staying low to the ground, then he'll be caught. He seems pretty strong though. He's eating on his own and I still hand feed him some. He's eating chicken crumbles for starting poultry, wild bird seed (smaller pieces) and of course those frozen peas and now does like the corn too. He doesn't drink water on his own so much, maybe he does on his own in the kennel when he's alone. But I put peas in the water and he plays bobbing for peas and gets water that way! I leave a feeding dish in the kennel over night so if he wakes sooner than I do, there is water and seeds for him.

I have been thinking of banding him, just so I'll know it's him when he joins the rest. I don't know if he'll be real tame. I've been trying to not handle him so much to give him a fighting chance out there. 

Does he look healthy to you? Should I keep him longer or let him loose? He's mediocre at eating seeds on his own. I have no idea what his flock eat. I suppose the fallen grains in the fields? I really don't see them until they are heading out for the day or coming home to the barn, or sunning on the roof. I don't really see them eating.

Does anyone have barn pigeons they feed? I would like to have him learn with the rest where they find food, but I don't know if he'll be accepted and taught or if I will need to supplement or not. If I supplement, how do I do that without making them sitting ducks for those barn cats? Any ideas? Thanks again! It's all the help from you all that I credit to this guy being alive so far! No signs of illness and normal looking poops if I can go by what the chickens have.

The first 2 pics were taken 9/14/11



















The next ones were taken today











Someone should wash that mirror! Like a parakeet, he LOVES looking at himself!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sulee, he look real good, very nice job, you might want to keep him inside for another week to build himself up just a bit more.

With feeding them in the barn, you could try taking up small platform to one of the barn supports, or wall, 5-6 feet off the ground and place seeds there, if you could edge the platform with some 3/4 x 1-2" wood it would be good, as you want to keep the seeds on the shelf, as best you can, and not on the ground below, also not too much food so they waste it and it ends up an the ground, you want them eating every bit, and not tossing food around, as they will do when there is too much. Even then you would want to make sure any pigeon that did lands on the ground had a chance by not having things a cat could ambush them from too close by. Others that actually have a barn may have better suggestions for you, but that's what came to mind for me.

What do the ones out there do right now for food?

Again, well done,

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

With barn cats present, I wouldn't feed them in the barn if there was any way that any could go on the floor. As once that starts happening, the birds will be landing on the floor all the time and searching for fallen seeds. Really can't totally fix things so that a quick cat couldn't jump them from somewhere.


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

He seems to be flying pretty well now. Still messing around with seed, but he really does love those peas and corn! I think I'll have to help feed for awhile until he is back in with the rest. 

How will that go? Are pigeons as squabbly as chickens with all the chasing and pecking of new ones? Or are they a little more easy going with young ones?

I'm wondering if I have my husband put an upper cupboard (with one door removed) up on the wall, will that work for a place for this guy to hang out in? Until he finds a place he likes better? It would have a lip to hold feed in and I could put feed in on the open side and straw or hay on the closed door side so he could sleep there. If it were up on the wall high, the cats couldn't reach it. The walls have plywood up so they aren't climbable. I could also place it high up the wall in one of the stalls and the cats can't get in there with the doors shut.

Jay3, I read the story of Aries! What a great thing you all did for him! That was so fun to read how it was progressing! I hope he is still living the good life with you! Wish I could hand this little one off to you too!

So what do you guys think? Does this sound like a plan? We will be having 5 mild sunny days in a row and I'd like to get him aclimated and in with a group to snuggle with, before we get the real cold temps.

Plus my husband still doesn't know I have him in the house! lol! Talk about unobservant! I have had him in the extra bathroom for over a week! He has the run of it and has been flying real well. He is able to take off fast. Just not a lot of room for distance.

Another thing, he doesn't let me come up and touch him anymore. I have to wait until he comes to me. He still loves being hand fed those peas! I think that's a good sign that he is adjusting and still has his wary wild instincts.

Thanks for all of your help so far! I really hope to let him back in with his group soon!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sulee, do you think you could give a little more details on the routine of the pigeons presently living in your barn. How many, where do they roost, where do they spend their day, do the do anything else than roost and nest in the barn (do they forage there), where do they eat and what do they eat. IMO, we are going to have to have him pretty well self sufficient before releasing him out there, he needs to be able to fully self-feed well, especially on whatever the other pigeons are foraging around your place for and living on.

Karyn


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Well, there are less than 12... I'm not sure of the number exactly because the flock seemed to have split and some are down the road and I think they are roosting beneath a bridge. Or maybe they died of whatever killed these? There is one other point I should mention that may have been a factor in the Mother or father and sib dying. The barn is insulated and there is an open area where some have crawled in and nested. I know there are a few living up in the ceiling. Anyway, the nest that these were in was on the ground where I found the mother I'm pretty sure. It was in pieces and I didn't realize it until I was looking up for places to make a perch area and saw the ceiling panel that was broken away with hay hanging there. Would an adult actually fall to their death? Wouldn't they fly if the nest was falling? Anyway, maybe that had to do with the sibling dying, maybe it had injuries. This one is so healthy... I don't know, but more to think on.

There are 2 other nests I know of and have seen them crawl into the ceiling. The latest I saw go into where this nest fell from, so maybe they have a whole colony up there like mice, for all I know! It's all covered up by ply wood and sheet rock, so no way of knowing.

There are 2 others who roost out in the open by the windows up in the peak. They look full grown I think. 

I'm in the country of north Dakota on the border of Minnesota, so this is all farm country. Our place is surrounded by small grain fields (wheat, oats, barley, soybeans) and corn fields. Also lots of sugar beets, but I 'm sure they have no interest in those! They leave the barn early am and I guess are out in the fields all day. On sunny days, I see some sitting on the barn roof outside. They don't come back if I'm in the barn, so I really don't know for sure how many we have here!


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh and no, they do not go anywhere near the floor or look for grain in the barn. We have horses, but I don't feed a lot of grain and when I do, there isn't any spillage because I don't want to attract mice. That's why I have barn cats too! They leave the barn to get food and they are pretty wild. If I go in the barn, they take off flying to the other side, even though the roof is 3 stories high. So it isn't like I am walking directly under them. They're pretty spooky!

I think most are in the ceiling because we also don't have much pigeon poop in the barn either. I don't want to start feeding them in the barn, but I thought maybe just for this guy. I don't think the others will follow suit and eat in the barn while I'm standing there, because they are so spooky!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the more full picture of what is going on with these guys around your place. I don't see an adult falling to its death, even in the dark, so I don't think the broken tile caused the death of the parent.

Well, I think a place to start would be to make sure you introduce him to the grains that can be foraged around your fields, so he clearly understands that they are not only food, but what he needs to eat to survive. Sometimes with juveniles that have been hand raised it's a challenge getting them moved over to a full seed diet, but because of this guys' circumstances, even with you proposing to provide support for him, he needs to currently be able to not have you hand feed him anything and still do well on his own.

To tell you the truth, since I now understand that none of the birds that live in the barn forage there, I am not sure it is wise to move him to a stall in there at present, as he will go to the ground and forage there, and we do not want him to feel comfortable on the ground in the barn at all. He will learn from the others that the barn floor is not a safe place.

Let's start by getting him eating the seeds/grain for now. I do have one suggestion for you and that would be to find an wide open place outside and place wild bird seed there for the 12 that are living in the barn. As this will be safe for them and a good transition for him in a while, as he will follow the others to feed there and from this source of support he will follow them to the fields to learn wild foraging from them.

This information was inside the link I provided earlier:

_These links describe how to get them nuzzling and eating seeds. Also, you can spread some seeds around for them, so that you can make like you are hunting and pecking with them by crooking your forefinger and tapping at the seeds along with them. Also, start to keep a dish of seeds in their cage (no whole sunflower seeds, along with a small water dish,) as well as spreading some out in their cage for the to peck at. Some catch on pretty quick, with others it may take a bit of time, so be patient with them.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11 (information on how to get him to start to self water)
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=523350&postcount=16 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=508006&postcount=3 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507810&postcount=2 feeding seeds_

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you do set up something for the barn pigeons to be fed outside, making a raised platform, maybe 5 feet up, screwed to a 4X4, this would be safer for the birds. That way they wouldn't be feeding on the ground with the barn cats stalking them. Place it in an open area so that they can see any cats trying to approach them. If you ran a 2 inch lip around it, they would throw fewer seeds to the ground. You don't want them going to the ground for food.


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Well, he's still inside, but will be going out this weekend... either here or by someone who also has a young orphaned pigeon, so they can be company for each other. If he stays here, I'll have my husband build a platform for him. Do they like houses? We have a few extra kitchen cupboards, the smaller size the fits above a fridge... would it work to put one of those up high, (Can remove a door) and then attach a platform with lip to it? That way, he/she would have a little spot to huddle too, in the cold.

One other thing, he has started to pick and itch at himself. Sometimes pretty hard! Then he kicks his legs out. Is this a normal behavior? Or does he have bugs or maybe bored and starting to self mutilate? Do they do that so young?

I did put a few drops of topical liquid Ivermectin on the back of his neck, like we do with the chickens, in case he had fleas, lice or mites. He's still pecking his chest, under wings and butt anyway. Maybe it takes the Ivermectin more time to work? I gave a small dose, maybe underdosed...


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh! And his voice changed! Kind of a low weird sound, but not a squeak anymore. Can you tell by the voice pitch if it's male or female? I don't know why I keep wondering that! lol


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## Sulee (Sep 8, 2011)

I released the chick Friday am and had some food set out in a spot the cats couldn't reach. He flew away and later, he was sitting way up in a top window sill with 2 other pigeons. The light colored one that usually roosts up there at night hasn't been there the last 2 nights and i haven't seen the chick either. His food is untouched.

Later Friday afternoon, I saw him by the chicken coop. Pigeons never are back there. I think he may have been drawn to them because all the time he spent in the bathroom in the house, he sat by the window and listened and watched the chickens go about their day. When I went out tot he coop, he flew off and left the area. That's the last time i saw him for sure.

Yesterday it was raining, and I saw a lone pigeon colored like he is flying North and away from our place. Do they usually fly in the rain? I hope he isn't lost!

I'm wondering how well is their natural homing instinct? Does he know were he came from and will he find his way back here? Or was he just too young to release? He was eating and drinking on his own and pecking around. I put an ad out, looking for someone with pigeon experience in my area, hoping someone could take him because I had to get him out of the house. No one answered the ad, so I had to let him go. My husband was getting mad about my bathroom set up. I hope he'll be ok!


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