# How do you attach hardware cloth?



## Skyglider

I'm going to build a small loft with an attached wire cage. The cage will be 4' wide x 3' deep x 3' high similar to this one:









The frame will be simpler and just made out of 2 x 2 inch wood. I'll use 1/2 inch hardware cloth that's 3 feet wide for the cage.

Since the hardware cloth will be exposed to the weather, what should I use to attach the hardware cloth to the wooden frame that won't rust? Would monel staples be good or too weak? If OK, how long should the staples be? What did you use?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Zippy

I used washers and galvanized screws. You could use staples to hold it up and then screw in strips of wood over the edges and seams. I wouldn't trust stapes only unless they are galvanized u shaped nails.


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## Silver Wings

We used staples that were put in with an air gun. 1/2" long U shape. We can't get them out if we wanted to. We'd have to just cut the wire and pull the pieces out.

I would not trust a hand held stapler.


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## Skyglider

Zippy said:


> I used washers and galvanized screws. You could use staples to hold it up and then screw in strips of wood over the edges and seams. I wouldn't trust stapes only unless they are galvanized u shaped nails.





Silver Wings said:


> We used staples that were put in with an air gun. 1/2" long U shape. We can't get them out if we wanted to. We'd have to just cut the wire and pull the pieces out.
> 
> I would not trust a hand held stapler.


Hi Zippy and Silver,

Thanks for your tips on attaching hardware cloth. Since I don't have an air gun, I'll use my hand stapler to hold the hardware cloth in place and then use washers and galvanized screws.

Are screws used to be able to remove them later? Does the hardware cloth need replacing during the life of the loft? What about using galvanized roofing nails with the large heads?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## ironman1st

Wood strips will protect your birds and you from the rough edges.


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## Shadybug Lofts

I use a air stapler, then staple 1/4" wood strips over the edges with the same stapler. I try to use treated wood for this. I take a 2x4 and run it through the table saw, it makes a lot of 1 1/2" strips.


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## Silver Wings

I suppose the need to repair, replace, etc, would depend on how long you kept your loft. Or if you decided to add on or change... These things are pretty addictive, and new thoughts often come about lol. You see it written all over these threads.

Let me correct myself a bit to more of your situation -
We used 3/8" on the roosting box.
We used 1/2" on the aviary.

So we can get the staples out on the roosting box, but not the Aviary. It would probably give you a good bit of insight to look at my photo album here on PT. 

There you will see pics of the work in progress. A close up shot of one of the doors within a door. Door human and door pigeon. You'll notice how straight my lines are on the cloth. Not only did I take my time cutting the cloth, I then took a square (tool name) and pulled back the cloth onto itself. So all the pointy ends were under the cloth once placed on the door and each tiny wire pushed into the wood itself. Not only does this protect the birds, but it protects small fingers when going in the loft of my Godchildren. No ouchies for anyone! 

You might look at renting an airgun for the day, you wouldn't need it longer. Or maybe a friend has one you could borrow. Sure makes the processes go a whole heap faster!!! and it's much easier on the hands.

You asked about my windows.... The plexiglas sits between the wood door and the hardware cloth. I haven't had any issues with it and bloom. That being said - I live in a very aired (super dry) climate. I wiped the plexiglas down with rainex cleaner (the kind that 'sheets' rain and snow on a car windshield), my birds are bathed once to twice a week as we are going thru a high 'dander' period due to their age and they are white.


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## Skyglider

ironman1st said:


> Wood strips will protect your birds and you from the rough edges.





Shadybug Lofts said:


> I use a air stapler, then staple 1/4" wood strips over the edges with the same stapler. I try to use treated wood for this. I take a 2x4 and run it through the table saw, it makes a lot of 1 1/2" strips.


Hi ironman1st and Shadybug,

Thanks for your tips. I'll use the 1/4" wood strips to cover the rough edges of the cloth.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

Silver Wings said:


> I suppose the need to repair, replace, etc, would depend on how long you kept your loft. Or if you decided to add on or change... These things are pretty addictive, and new thoughts often come about lol. You see it written all over these threads.
> 
> Let me correct myself a bit to more of your situation -
> We used 3/8" on the roosting box.
> We used 1/2" on the aviary.
> 
> So we can get the staples out on the roosting box, but not the Aviary. It would probably give you a good bit of insight to look at my photo album here on PT.
> 
> There you will see pics of the work in progress. A close up shot of one of the doors within a door. Door human and door pigeon. You'll notice how straight my lines are on the cloth. Not only did I take my time cutting the cloth, I then took a square (tool name) and pulled back the cloth onto itself. So all the pointy ends were under the cloth once placed on the door and each tiny wire pushed into the wood itself. Not only does this protect the birds, but it protects small fingers when going in the loft of my Godchildren. No ouchies for anyone!
> 
> You might look at renting an airgun for the day, you wouldn't need it longer. Or maybe a friend has one you could borrow. Sure makes the processes go a whole heap faster!!! and it's much easier on the hands.
> 
> You asked about my windows.... The plexiglas sits between the wood door and the hardware cloth. I haven't had any issues with it and bloom. That being said - I live in a very aired (super dry) climate. I wiped the plexiglas down with rainex cleaner (the kind that 'sheets' rain and snow on a car windshield), my birds are bathed once to twice a week as we are going thru a high 'dander' period due to their age and they are white.


Hi Silver,

Thanks for all of those good tips. I checked out your photo album and it's very helpful for the planning of my small loft. That's a mighty big flight area for your lucky birds. I noticed that the floor of your loft is wood with raised edges all around. When you scrape the poop, do you use a dustpan to pick up the loose poop?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Larry_Cologne

I think mice will be able to get through ½" hardware cloth. Mouse droppings are bad for pigeons to ingest, so I've read.

I don't have a loft, but am closing entry places for mice with 6mm hardware cloth, or ¼".

I have a German-made mouse rap in front of me. Width across the square opening, between the thin wires, is 7.5 mm or 0.3 inches. 

I had a mouse carry-cage, with plastic grill top. Adult mouse and baby mouse escaped through a ½" diameter hole they chewed through the top.

I watched a moue chew through a translucent plastic one-gallon (5-liters, to be precise) jug such as is used for distilled water here in Europe, and milk in the U.S., in about one minute. The mouse only needed a hole big enough for him to get purchase on the edge of the hole with his incisors.


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## Shadybug Lofts

When I redid the old loft I did not attach the wire. I only screwed strips over the wire, then if I ever have to replace the wire I just have to unscrew the strips and replace the wire, then replace the strip. Always plan ahead wire will rust up after a couple 4 or 5 years.


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## Silver Wings

Larry_Cologne said:


> I think mice will be able to get through ½" hardware cloth. Mouse droppings are bad for pigeons to ingest, so I've read.
> 
> I don't have a loft, but am closing entry places for mice with 6mm hardware cloth, or ¼".
> 
> I have a German-made mouse rap in front of me. Width across the square opening, between the thin wires, is 7.5 mm or 0.3 inches.
> 
> I had a mouse carry-cage, with plastic grill top. Adult mouse and baby mouse escaped through a ½" diameter hole they chewed through the top.
> 
> I watched a moue chew through a translucent plastic one-gallon (5-liters, to be precise) jug such as is used for distilled water here in Europe, and milk in the U.S., in about one minute. The mouse only needed a hole big enough for him to get purchase on the edge of the hole with his incisors.


This is very good - and insightful info. I have seen mice get through items only as big as their skulls. Once the skull (don't worry about those ears) is through they have access. They have quite a neck /skull flexibility to maneuver through places you just wouldn't expect. Great measurements for us all!!


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## Skyglider

Larry_Cologne said:


> I think mice will be able to get through ½" hardware cloth. Mouse droppings are bad for pigeons to ingest, so I've read.
> 
> I don't have a loft, but am closing entry places for mice with 6mm hardware cloth, or ¼".
> 
> I have a German-made mouse rap in front of me. Width across the square opening, between the thin wires, is 7.5 mm or 0.3 inches.
> 
> I had a mouse carry-cage, with plastic grill top. Adult mouse and baby mouse escaped through a ½" diameter hole they chewed through the top.
> 
> I watched a moue chew through a translucent plastic one-gallon (5-liters, to be precise) jug such as is used for distilled water here in Europe, and milk in the U.S., in about one minute. The mouse only needed a hole big enough for him to get purchase on the edge of the hole with his incisors.


Thanks for your insight. Did more research and found this old thread in pigeons.biz:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/hardware-cloth-size-for-new-loft-15608.html?mode=linear#post131290

One post in that thread says mice get into his loft that has 1/2 inch hardware cloth with no difficulty. I'll use 1/4 inch cloth for our loft. Definitely don't want our bird(s) eating mice droppings.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

Shadybug Lofts said:


> When I redid the old loft I did not attach the wire. I only screwed strips over the wire, then if I ever have to replace the wire I just have to unscrew the strips and replace the wire, then replace the strip. Always plan ahead wire will rust up after a couple 4 or 5 years.


Hi Shadybug,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll follow your advice.

Skyglider


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## Shadybug Lofts

Skyglider said:


> Hi Shadybug,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll follow your advice.
> 
> Skyglider


Skyglider There are a million ways of doing things but you can do things that make things easier in the future, if you think about the future. I always say to myself, if I do this what is it going to look like 5 years from now and do things accordingly. Like using treated wood where it is needed for one example.


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## Jay3

If the hardware cloth is stapled on with a regular hand stapler, then the edges are covered with a strip of wood, then nothing is going to get through it. 
And mice won't get in with 1/2 inch. If someone had mice getting in with 1/2 inch hardware cloth, then they were getting in somewhere else. You can usually buy the 1/2 inch cloth in a heavier gauge than you can the 1/4 inch, and you want the heavy wire. It doesn't rust if galvanized. Would take many years. Mine has been on for 6 years and not a bit of rusting.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> If the hardware cloth is stapled on with a regular hand stapler, then the edges are covered with a strip of wood, then nothing is going to get through it.
> And mice won't get in with 1/2 inch. If someone had mice getting in with 1/2 inch hardware cloth, then they were getting in somewhere else. You can usually buy the 1/2 inch cloth in a heavier gauge than you can the 1/4 inch, and you want the heavy wire. It doesn't rust if galvanized. Would take many years. Mine has been on for 6 years and not a bit of rusting.


Hi Jay3,

Aside from the pigeon.biz thread that I linked to that says mice can get through 1/2 inch cloth, I also found this webpage that says 1/4 inch cloth is required to keep mice out:

http://icwdm.org/handbook/rodents/RodentExclusion.asp

Sure would love to use 1/2 inch cloth but definitely don't want mice droppings in our loft that birds might eat.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Jay3

I've never seen that thread, but thanks. I know mice can get through a 1/2 inch crack, but it would be wider than 1/2 inch. I know of a girl in Washington who used the 1/2 inch, and mice didn't get in, but the very tiny young mice got caught in the 1/2 inch holes while they were trying to get in. But they didn't get through. 
Hard to find 1/4 inch in 19 gauge or heavier. Usually see it in 23 gauge, which is way too light. Things can chew through that. Most people I know use the 1/2 inch and don't have a problem.


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## Jay3

Here's more info that means the 1/4 inch isn't even a deterrent from mice. So I guess it depends on where you get your info, and how correct it is.

Figure 2. Rats can gain entry through holes as small as 1/2 inch in diameter; mice can use holes as small as 1/4 inch in diameter. (Source: Prevention and Control of Wildlife Damage 1994).
http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/g1530/build/


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## Shadybug Lofts

I believe a small mouse could get through 1/2" x 1/2" wire. I watched a big chipmunk squeeze through a 1x1 wire in my little pen, ever since I saw this, I think differently about this subject. If they can get their skull through their body will squeeze small enough to follow. Do you realize that a mouse could chew threw any loft in minutes. I had my other pen empty for a while and a mouse decided to build a nest in the corner on the plastic droppings pan. long story short they just chewed the corner off the pan to get it out of the way for their nest and ruined the pan.


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## Larry_Cologne

I measured with a vernier calliper a desiccated mouse, one of four or five I've collected over the past two years. Width across the cheekbones (_zygomatic_), the widest part of the skull, was 11.6586 mm or 0.459 inches.

One source (which I wanted to cite, but can't locate the link right now)
said that house mouse (_mus musculus_) adult skull widths range from 10.4 to 11.5 mm, or 0.41 inches to 0.433 inches.

The sites I've seen referring to mice going through quarter-inch spaces referred to the height of a slot, without specifying the width. The mouse skull is wider (cheekbone to cheekbone, which accommodates the wide of the eyeballs) than it is high (from chin or mandible to top of skull). 











Can't get Google Picasa image to load.


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## Jay3

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I believe a small mouse could get through 1/2" x 1/2" wire. I watched a big chipmunk squeeze through a 1x1 wire in my little pen, ever since I saw this, I think differently about this subject. If they can get their skull through their body will squeeze small enough to follow. *Do you realize that a mouse could chew threw any loft in minutes. *I had my other pen empty for a while and a mouse decided to build a nest in the corner on the plastic droppings pan. long story short they just chewed the corner off the pan to get it out of the way for their nest and ruined the pan.


Well that would depend on what the loft was made of, or covered with.


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## Skyglider

Larry_Cologne said:


> I measured with a vernier calliper a desiccated mouse, one of four or five I've collected over the past two years. Width across the cheekbones (zygomatic), the widest part of the skull, was 11.6586 mm or 0.459 inches.
> 
> One source (which I wanted to cite, but can't locate the link right now)
> said that house mouse (_mus musculus_) adult skull widths range from 10.4 to 11.5 mm, or 0.41 inches to 0.433 inches.
> 
> The sites I've seen referring to mice going through quarter-inch spaces referred to the height of a slot, without specifying the width. The mouse skull is wider (cheekbone to cheekbone, which accommodates the wide of the eyeballs) than it is high (from chin or mandible to top of skull).


Hi Larry,

That is really interesting and informative info. Guess mice can get through 1/2 inch cloth alright. Looks like 1/4 inch cloth is safe. Thanks much for taking the time to measure and share.

Is this the image you tried to post?








Thought is was a pigeon head at first but then the whiskers indicate it's a mouse head.

Skyglider


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## Larry_Cologne

I had to interrupt my post to help get my wife's mother (Alzheimer, 85 years old) to bed with a lift (called a Tillift here).

My measurement of the desiccated mouse was larger than the range stated in the academic article I mentioned. My measurement included some dried skin, I suppose. The mouse was supported by a wad of cotton around his tail, held by an alligator clip on a "third hand" device for holding wires while soldering. My right hand held the calliper, maybe not positioned so accurately, while my left hand tried to hold the right-handed camera and squeeze the shutter at the same time. Calliper may look like it's measuring across the eyebrows rather than the cheekbones, but measurements were carefully made before posing the mouse for the photo. Also, didn't want to crush the skull or break the cheekbones by over-tightening the calliper. 

I have some larger house mice (longer and heavier, but not larger in skull size) in cages, waiting for summer transition to parks. 

In the photo I uploaded to Google Picasa, one can see that the shortest whisker on the mouse's left side, projecting further forward than the other hairs or whiskers, extends to te width of the skull. Corresponding whisker on the mouse's right side is missing, or swept back in death pose. 

Some of the hardware cloth I have seen in Belgium and Germany have varying wire gauges or thicknesses. In Googled images of "hardware cloth" on the web, some is woven. The roll I purchased here is simply spot-welded, all the parallel wires running the length of the roll simply lay over the wires running the width of the roll. The square openings in the grid vary a bit in size, and the wires are neither precisely parallel nor perpendicular to one another. Some grid openings are trapezoidal, and some form parallelograms. 

I hope this detail is not too cumbersome or burdensome for the readers.


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## Silver Wings

Larry -- I am taking in all being said here, so please do not feel you are contributing too much.

Sky -- I read a question from you somewhere earlier at the top of my day... I spent time in the loft with your question in mind while watching my very young birds. 
You can go to my photo album here on PT and see photos if it will help. These are my measurements -- Loft floor to landing pad on the roost box is 4 feet from the ground (this is the opening for the birds). The landing pad (hinged door) is 1 foot (out) and 10 inches across (parallel to the ground when open). The height from the landing pad to the roof is 2 feet.

One of my young birds today fluttered from the ground to the landing pad, then did a slight back flight like motion to gain altitude and go up to get to the top of the roost box. So I'm going to guess 2 feet off the nest box would be enough for them to get around inside .... I believe that was the question with 2 feet being the number you were curious about.

Hope this helps.


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## Silver Wings

*Mice / Rodents*

Well I guess the other thing I'll say about the whole rodent worry....

This is exactly why I don't feed in my roost box, AND I always pick up the food trays when I am done feeding them. I do not let my feed trays stay out even during the day. 

Picking up 'attractants' (food) makes a huge difference. How much they work at getting in is also probably has a lot to do with how available other food sources are to them... They will always go for the easiest path.


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## Skyglider

Silver Wings said:


> Sky -- I read a question from you somewhere earlier at the top of my day... I spent time in the loft with your question in mind while watching my very young birds.
> You can go to my photo album here on PT and see photos if it will help. These are my measurements -- Loft floor to landing pad on the roost box is 4 feet from the ground (this is the opening for the birds). The landing pad (hinged door) is 1 foot (out) and 10 inches across (parallel to the ground when open). The height from the landing pad to the roof is 2 feet.
> 
> One of my young birds today fluttered from the ground to the landing pad, then did a slight back flight like motion to gain altitude and go up to get to the top of the roost box. So I'm going to guess 2 feet off the nest box would be enough for them to get around inside .... I believe that was the question with 2 feet being the number you were curious about.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Hi Silver,

My nest boxes will be attached to the back wall of the loft like yours are. The measurement that I'm concerned about is the distance from the front of the nest boxes to the front wall. It will only be 2 feet wide in my loft and I'm not sure whether pigeons can fly vertically upward in a 2 feet wide space to reach the upper nest boxes. 

When you said "_*So I'm going to guess 2 feet off the nest box would be enough for them to get around inside...*_", was that the space between the nest boxes and the front wall or the height that the pigeons have to fly up to?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Silver Wings

Silver Wings said:


> The landing pad (hinged door) is 1 foot (out) and 10 inches across (parallel to the ground when open). The height from the landing pad to the roof is 2 feet.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Red had only 1 foot of space to jump and flutter upward (she's learning to fly) but could get vertical flight enough to make it 2 feet up with in a 1 foot space.

Does this make sense??


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## Skyglider

Silver Wings said:


> Red had only 1 foot of space to jump and flutter upward (she's learning to fly) but could get vertical flight enough to make it 2 feet up with in a 1 foot space.
> 
> Does this make sense??


Hi Silver,

Ahh, my light bulb finally came on . I'll go ahead with my current loft design with the 2 feet of fly up space.

Thanks much,
Skyglider


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## Silver Wings

I'm just overly detailed, Sky. I thrive on the details lol


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