# Obstructed Esophagus



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Got one of the feral flock ones rounded up a couple days ago, yesterday? Adult, medium 'thin', who has a fairly large 'swelling' in his Neck.

He flies fine, and were it not for his letting me round him up, he'd have been impossible to catch.


He is or will be getting weaker now, since nothing is passing into his Crop.


Originally I supposed that this swelling was Canker or an Abcess...

Throat was clear on initial exam...but, Vent Feathers show yellowy Urates but not enough to block pooping, though we have been doing butt-baths just to keep things tidy back there.


I have decided instead, that this seems to be a bunch of Seeds, piled up in his Esophagus, and that there must be an obstruction preventing Foods from going down into his Crop.

His Crop as such, has been flat and seemingly empty since I got him.


I was able to get some of the Seeds out of his Throat area, and shame on me for putting Seeds into his Cage for him, which he was pecking and eating a few of, or else there'd be less of the darned things piled up like they are.


I pulled his Seeds, and Water for the time being...so there'd be room for the Medistatin and dissolved Metronidazole later this afternoon hopefully.


He was pooping a few ( three or four ) decent enough poops initially, but now it is just bile...so, the last of whatever had been passing, has passed his digestive system.

I gave him Metronidazole initially, and possibly the Tablet has dissolved by now at liesure above the obstruction, among the piled up Seeds.


I have been gently massaging the mass, and trying to help him throw them up, but with no luck on getting more of them out of there...and am soon going to get some 'Medistatin' in there...along with a dissolved-in-advance Metronidazole Tablet with a touch of ACV.



Anyone have any ideas or reminesences which could maybe help me figure out what else to do?

Or how to do something which would help the situation?


I do not have any idea what the obstruction is, other than possibly Canker or Abcess...and it is above the Crop so I am saying it to be in the Esophagus proper.


He is co-operative, although, me holding his Beak open and pointing his Head 'down' and shaking him, trying to get those piled up Seeds to come out, has not been the pleasure either of us would have prefered.

HE wants them out-of-there also, so he gets it, and he is willing to put up with this.


Massaging them 'up' does seem to work somewhat, but getting them 'out' from there has not proved possible yet with our various experiments.


I will keep trying, but wanted to run this past you-all...




Phil
l v


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Poor guy. Have you tried a drop of extra virgin olive oil? I know that worked for me when I had a baby with a solid crop. Maybe it would help lubricate the seeds down? I don't know what the med you're giving him does, maybe that is its purpose (to help break up the obstruction). I guess you couldn't very carefully use a some sort of tubing to try to suck the seeds out? Sounds gross, I'm sure, but just throwing ideas out there. And I know if you think it would help, you don't mind if it's "gross".  I hope he gets it straightened out.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, he was starting to have troubles breathing...so I figured we'd better get on to it and see if we could get some of those Seeds out of there.


The Seeds have been expanding with hydration, so...


I wrapped him like a 'Burrito' with Legs "back" and put a hefty rubber Band around his not quite shoulders and by golly, that held him well for the proceedure of trying to 'milk' and 'massage' whatever I could, out of his Esophagus.


And, I got out at least a heaping Tablespoon full of syrupy hydrated Seed medley to come out through his down pointed, held-open Beak...while the original or lowest 'lump' itself remaind unyeilding, 'rubbery' feeling, and seems to have some large Seeds locked in it.


None the less, he feels a lot better having what we got 'out' of there, out-of-there...has a much better expression on his face now...and I adminstered via 'tube', some "Medistatin" and will tube in a dissolved 'Metronidazole' soon...but I did not want to flood him with what room there is in there, so...



Phil
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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

maryjane said:


> Poor guy. Have you tried a drop of extra virgin olive oil? I know that worked for me when I had a baby with a solid crop. Maybe it would help lubricate the seeds down? I don't know what the med you're giving him does, maybe that is its purpose (to help break up the obstruction). I guess you couldn't very carefully use a some sort of tubing to try to suck the seeds out? Sounds gross, I'm sure, but just throwing ideas out there. And I know if you think it would help, you don't mind if it's "gross".  I hope he gets it straightened out.




Thanks MJ, 



My guess, is that he had a growing Canker obstruction in his Esophagus, and finally it had plugged things up so no food would pass, so the Seeds he had been eating were just piling up in there and swelling, which probably has been painful...and was finally pressing against his Airway it seemed.


If it is not Canker casuing this, then whatever it is, is none the less a rubbery mass which has Seeds in it but will not release the seeds for them to get massaged out his Beak.


He is feeling better now, and I will do some more in an hour or two, to see what I think about the remaining or original "lump".


The 'Medistatin' kills Yeasts and Candida, which can start causing problems any time Seeds or other foods stay in the Crop too long, or, in this case, in his Esophagus.


Thanks for your well wishes..!


He is a very hip Pigeon and wants to co-operate, and I know this was pretty unpleasant for him, having me work that syrupy Seed mass outta there...


Phil
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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hey Phil...I have this referral for Animal Kingdom if this ones becomes too much. I did talk to them today and was told they rehab and release. I'm so jealous. I wish there was more help here. 702-735-7184
Here's another place too. This one can't take birds with broken bones, but would be a good place for babies that had been orphoned... 702-645-4224.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> Hey Phil...I have this referral for Animal Kingdom if this ones becomes too much. I did talk to them today and was told they rehab and release. I'm so jealous. I wish there was more help here. 702-735-7184
> Here's another place too. This one can't take birds with broken bones, but would be a good place for babies that had been orphoned... 702-645-4224.




Hi Charis, 


Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, I do not understand your meaning here, but, okay...


'Animal Kingdom' unless things have changed, would give the fake 'glad hand' to people bringing them injured, baby or sick Birds, then, five seconds later, just wring the Bird's neck.


I would see Hell Freeze before I would ever trust those false face lieing bast*ards with anything.


The other number, I have no idea who that goes to...other than a 'voice mail'.

Who is the 2nd number supposed to go to? 

'Gilcrease'?

'Wild Wing'?


I might as well wring their necks myself and save having to drive to ether.





What's your point anyway?

That either of those would hold him for me while I milk the Seeds out?

Or..?





Do tell..?


Phil
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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Phil, the point is if you feel bomb-barded with birds you do have some resources in your area. I did speak with these people today about the need for resources for pigeons. The numbers I gave you sounded good. Some of the places I called said they do not take pigeons and I didn't give you those numbers...of course.
Renee and I have been working on adding to our resource list, in all areas, for the last month or so. It's very frustrating when someone posts, has an immediate need for help and we know of no one in their area. 
I must say that most SPCAs are very helpful and concerned...Las Vegas SPCA is an exception. The person I spoke with was quite unhelpful.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Charis,




In case you really did not know...even though I have discussed both these places in detail various times previously...

Neither of these places has any Capacity or interest to care for any sick or injured Birds.

Neither has any skill or interest or time or personell to raise any Bird Babys.


The 2nd phone number goes to 'Gilcrease' and they will care for baby Precocial Birds by putting them into a cardboard box full of poop slime with a light bulb and pull out the dead every day or so.

Gilcrease has no time, personel or skill to care for any Altritous Babys.

They have Aviarys which can accept healthy Birds who are self sufficient.

They are nice people, but they are not caregivers or able to spend any time on any Bird who needs care.


'Animal Kingdom', unless things have radically changed, always used to invite people who called, to bring sick or injured Birds, then none of the Birds would ever live the night, no matter how slight or insignificant the injury or issue.

Unless one pays the full bore prices of a standard visit, they will not examine a Bird you bring in, in your presence, and instead, they insist you leave it...then, every time, the Bird mysteriousl 'dies' in a few hours or overnight.


It would be nice to have some help here, yes...


However, neither of those places represent a resourse for anything I am doing...other than I could hand over releaseables to 'Gilcrease' for their Aviarys if I felt like it.



If you don't mind, I'd like to get back to the thread's actual topic, which is about this particular Bird and his serious issue which I would like to help him with if I can.




Phil
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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

I agree with the blockage in the throat. It is possible that this started as canker, and blocking the throat, now the seeds stuck. That's a great thing that you are treating for the possible of mold and infection from the seeds. In this case I would recommend Neem Oil, that could help reduce the swelling around the canker and allow some things to pass. 
Amazing that you got so much stuff out of his esophagus. I'm glad Sanjaya was able to work his down on his own. He stuffed himself soo full once, he started making odd noises and crunching smunching his crop around, like he was trying to loosen the pack up. (I've got him on ACV and tea tree oil as a maintenence to keep the aviary free of bugs.)

Just a tiny drop in the beak might reduce the inflamation enough. Also, another option to reduce swelling while you wait for the medicines to work would be Pimafix (african bay oil) has been proven to reduce swelling around canker lesions.

It doesn't treat the canker in bad cases, only mild cases, but it does give the bird some more room to swallow in the throat area. I'm going off the theory that the medicine will clear up the trouble but in the mean time there is swelling in the throat that natural oils could ease further, working together.
Just a theory. I tried these on my birds to reduce redness and swelling around the beak.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Philodice,



Thank you...


I got out all that would come out, far as Seeds which were above the blockage.

Water seems to pass, so that's good...


I gave him half-a-dose of a dissolved Metronidazols with a day's dose of Baytril, via 'The Tube', and once done with that he started 'squeaking' and 'nuzzling' and is REALLY wanting to be fed, even though he would appear to be a young Adult.


So...I promised him I would mix some dilute 'Nutrical' and 'tube' it in later...



He's a sweetie, and all enthused now about food...and he is HUNGRY...so, we'll do a safe little nutritious meal here in a little while...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just did a second light 'liquid' Meal, tubed into his far Throat, trying not to over fill what room there is above the obstructed area...and...he really REALLY appreciated it.


I have no idea whether this sweet Pigeon is going to get through this, but, for now, I can say, his moralle is very very good, and he is definitely a lot perkier and alert and interested in things and very glad to finally get some nutrition into himself.


The first light meal, he ate like-a-Baby, with my finger tips on his Beak, out of a little tiny Cup hardly bigger than a Thimble.


Second meal I just 'tubed' in, and that was alright with him, if less fun than 'eating' maybe.


He threw up a little of it an hour later, along with about six small gooey 'Seeds' which I must not have gotten out in our prior efforts to get out what we could, so, I figured that was alright, him throwing those up and all.


His meals were diluted 'Nutrical' with a gentle Fruit Juice blend, half-a-Metronidazole dissolved into the second round.


Later, when I saw him throwing up the several Seeds with a little of the meal also, I offered him some electrolyte Water and he had a few sips of that.

I figured he'd like to wash out his mouth and Beak after thorwing up that little bit, and, he did want to , so that worked out nicely.


So, wish him well...he's sure been through hell up till now, and has a serious and uncertain climb ahead too...


I forgot to add a little 'Neem Oil' so I will hopefully reeber to do that to-morrow.


How much would you think Philodice?

A drop or two? Or..?




Phil
l v


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

A little drop.
I was worried that you wouldn't be able to get anything down past the 'whatever it is in his throat' but since the medicine is going down, you probably don't need the neem oil. Still I think it's swelling reduction properties would give the bird a little more throat room. The cool thing about Neem is that it works on contact, so if he wasn't eating already or nothing was getting past the blockage at all, it could have been the thing to save his life. Thank goodness he appears to be rounding the corner, at least enough to get that medicine in.
I'm recommending Neem here, because the product I favor for swelling doesn't have enough research to back it up. Because of the lack of research on 'pimafix' I have stopped using it in favor of tea tree oil and Neem. Tea tree would be to 'strong' in this case, possibly an irritant, Neem is gentler.

I wish West African Bay oil had more scientific studies on how it reduces swelling in mucosal membranes of fish and fowl, but I have been only able to find one study that showed promising results, and then the FDA passed it as a fish medicine for fungus, and there were no more studies I can find on it's other medicinal properties. In my own slightly unscientific study, I used Pimafix to take the inflammation of a canker case down, and colloidal silver to kill the t. gallinae organisms. This 1 drop of each down the throat of a dove and he didn't cough up any more seeds, or make any more strange noises, and the redness around the beak went away. I continued the course for 5 days even though I saw improvement within hours.

You don't think he might have Gapeworms?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Philodice,




I had to get up early and leave but just got back, and he is still standing, and, has a look of "Uhhhh, when's chow time? Is it NOW???"


Last nights meals 'passed' and are pooped out now...


Liquids will pass the blockage, so, we will be doing liquid-foods.


There is a large 'rubbery' lump wich I assume is an inflamitory debris artifact...either from Canker or some other infection which has for whatever reason, localized in his Esophagus, anout 1/3 of the way down between his chin and shoulders.


If the Antibiotics and Metronidazile and Medistatin regimen can cause this debris to disingauge from his Esophogal tissues, I might be able to massage it 'up' and get it out of there, out his Beak...


I would not want the debris-artefact to go 'down' where it could clog his Crop.


The artefact seems to have Seeds bound in it, and, possibly the five or six small Seeds he threw up last night, might be ones which are losening now from having been inclusions in the debris.


I do not think this is a Gape Worm or an endoparasite issue...but then again, I do not know anything about Gape Worms, and I should 'google' it to see if I can find out some things.


So, only liquid foods for now, being diluted Nutrical and Fruit Juices...since I dare not feed 'K-T' or other 'powder' based foods which could clog whatever possibly tiny passages as there are there, or, I do not want to take a chance anyway with that.


I dare not try and wiggle a slender Catheter down his esophagus either, to try and see if I can gt through or past the blockage, for fear it could go out the side of the potentially frail Esophagal tissue, so feeding more substantial meals directly into his Crop is not an option...unless I were to wish to create a small incision into the upper Crop directly, for a small catheter to be inserted for delivering formula, and, really, I might just talk with my Vet about that on Monday, if the blockage is not loosening up by then.


I will try the 'Neem' here in a little while...



Thanks Philodice..!


Phil
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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

You know, Phil, I was just reading this and it reminded me of several pigeons we have taken in with a "hard" crop - and I do mean hard. In almost every case, these pigeons had eaten dry beans, like navy beans, and the beans would swell up after they got in the crop. I'll be honest with you, we were only able to save about 50% of them because they were so impacted. The vet tried suctioning some out but they were so packed in it didn't do much good and one baby actually died while they were doing it.

About the only thing that was successful was keeping fluids in their crop, gently massaging it in an upwards motion, and try to break them up. The ones that did make it were those that started regurgitating the beans until they threw most of them up. The drug Propulsid did seem to help with the gastrointestinal problems but this drug is no longer approved for use in the US - at least by humans.

This probably is not what is going on with your guy but thought I'd throw it out there for information. Sure hope he makes it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> You know, Phil, I was just reading this and it reminded me of several pigeons we have taken in with a "hard" crop - and I do mean hard. In almost every case, these pigeons had eaten dry beans, like navy beans, and the beans would swell up after they got in the crop. I'll be honest with you, we were only able to save about 50% of them because they were so impacted. The vet tried suctioning some out but they were so packed in it didn't do much good and one baby actually died while they were doing it.
> 
> About the only thing that was successful was keeping fluids in their crop, gently massaging it in an upwards motion, and try to break them up. The ones that did make it were those that started regurgitating the beans until they threw most of them up. The drug Propulsid did seem to help with the gastrointestinal problems but this drug is no longer approved for use in the US - at least by humans
> 
> ...




Thanks Maggie, 


His obstruction is high in his Esophagus, ( about 1/3rd of the way 'down' from his Head, and above his Crop proper ) and his Crop is flat and empty with no convenient way of getting anything into it, other than that Liquids will slowly percolate past the obstruction, and, pass at liesure into his Crop.

He did have impacted Seeds filling up his esophagus above the obstruction, and, these I was able to 'massage' out so they came out a few at a time through his Beak, as I had him lay sideways for the thing to be done.



I believe the obstruction is either Canker or some other debris producing localized infection, but either way, with Seeds bound in the inflamitory debris...and the artefact itself is tenaceous and 'rubbery' and firmly attactched for the time being.


I am hoping for three things -


1) That the artefact can loosen and become seperate from the surrounding tissues of his esophagus...by virtue of the Antibiot and anti-Canker treatments.


2) That I can then 'massage' the artefact up and out his Beak...( so it does not pass 'down' where it could clog the passage to his Stomach )


3) That the esophagus itself will remain intact, have no perforations or eroded or missing sections, and, or heal and be a functioning supple esophagus which will have no 'leaks' or constrictions from scarring.


Those are my hopes, as regard my understanding of his situation.



His meals, since he is happy to 'eat like a Baby', are Liquid, and, he in effect is drinking them from a Thimble sized 'Cup'...so this is very elegant, and easy and he enjoys it...but he insists I keep my finger tips on his Beak sides.


He is a adult, or a youg adult ayway, but, he is happy with this feedig method, and so am I.


So, half hour or hour or off and on anyway, I have him drink a little meal, and that way we do not have to worry about how much room there is in his esophagus above the obstruction, where, with if guessig and using the 'tube', I could easily flood him.


So, very small meals, often, is our de-rigeur for the time being...



Thanks for your well wishes!


If I can find my back-up Camera I will post a picture of him.


Best wishes..!


Phil
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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

*How is the little guy today???*

Hi Phil,

I've been following this thread and it sounds like a really serious/complicated case.

I was just wondering how this little guy is doing today???

I know his best chance for survival is with you. So glad you have taken him in.

Please update us if you can.

Regards,
Louise


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Louise, 


Thank you...


We are just doing 'small' Liquid Meals which consist of 'Nutrical' dissolved in Grape-Apple-Cranberry-Peach juice blend...'small' meaning one mL either via his drinking it, or via the 'tube'...

Into his day's worth of this ( reconned to be around 30 Calories worth ) I dissolve his Canker Meds, some 'Medistatin', and have his Baytril also...so, by each day's end he has got his meds, and enough Calories to sustain him.


I am thinking to have my Vet evaluate the possibility of intserting a hollow Stint into his Crop so that particulate Foods/formulas could be introduced, while the obstruction continues to preclude their being given orally.


Or, I would fear that 'K-T' type formula might not pass well or would clog whatever fine room there is...wher we'd realy be in a pickle then.


Will be examining him better later tonight and we'll see how that obstruction is doing...

I'd sure like to see it loosen up so I can massage it up and out and be done with it...then, he could have formula, or, even Seeds I s'pose...or be pecking.

Thanks for asking about him..!



Phil
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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, his esophagus above the obstruction is filling up with yellow slime from the effects - or so I imagine - of the medications loosening the blockage.


I have seen similar 'slime' stuff in other Throats, but those Throats could swallow.

Anyway, I'd let him sip a little liquid 'Medistatin' and he started choking, so I got his Head pulled "up" tall with his Beak pointed up, grabbed a syringe with a little Catheter on it and suctioned out 1-1/2 mL of slime-liquid and he was greatly relieved, though still having a little cough now and then.


So, my original 'guess' of keeping his meals in the 1 mL range was pretty close after all as for the volume his esophagus would hold safely.


I guess he can coast a day anyway, with no nourishment or liquids, since the slime now is creating a complete obturation condition where nothing would be able to percolate past.


I will try gently 'massaging' the obstruction some more later toniht, to see if by some miracle it has become freed and able to be moved 'up' ( and 'out' )...but, untill it is, the only way he's going to get any food and water and continued meds in him, ( barring injectible Meds ) will have to be through a stint via an incision into his Crop, so, I will try and see my Vet tomorrow to find his opinion on that, and or what-to-do.

I sure like this Pigeon and hope he can hang on and muddle throuh this.


He is really hunry too...



Phil
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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry this bird is having such trouble swallowing, I'm glad you are taking him to the vet, hopefully this can be remedied.
Thank you for everything you are doing for him.

Please keep us updated.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Trees,



Thanks..!


Vet app't is for 2:00 this afternoon...



Phil
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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vet app't went well...Doc was using a long Q-Tip to dig out a little more debris-slime and old small Seeds coming loose, from the blockage which has started to losened up, and as he did so, found a place where the long Q-Tip passed by the softening goo-surrounded obstruction.


Getting home, I was able to give a 'good' Tube-Feed by hunting for that spot, and it took quite a bit of hunting, for the Catheter to pass by the obstruction and into the Crop proper.


So, he is resting now, with the first 'real' meal he's had in who knows how long.


Meal included meds of course...dissolved into the food-formula.



He is in god spirits if definitely 'frail'...


So...fingers crossed...



Love,



Phil
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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Great progress Phil.....I pray it continues to open the way. I'm sure his little body appreciated some real calories.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Phil,

Glad to hear the visit to the vet went well and that you were able to get some formula & meds into the little guy. I'll bet he was so glad to finally get some food.

I know you'll get him through this.

Thanks for all you are doing Phil.

Regards,
Louise


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks you two..!


I should have said "Hoping my tube-feed Catheter" ( and the Vet's Q-Tip before it ) had in fact gotten by the obturation and into the Crop, and had not gone through the possibly quite frail wall of the Esophagus"...

...since I have no way to tell for now...which...


So, those are some of the 'Needles and Pins' I am sitting on with this.




Phil
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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Thanks you two..!
> I should have said "Hoping my tube-feed Catheter" ( and the Vet's Q-Tip before it ) had in fact gotten by the obturation and into the Crop, and had not gone through the possibly quite frail wall of the Esophagus"...
> 
> ...since I have no way to tell for now...which...
> ...




Phil, I doubt you have to worry about esophageal perforation. If that had happened, you would see a great deal of distress I would think. Just continued gentleness passing the tube should not injure him further as that obstruction breaks apart. That he is resting is a good sign and even as frail as he is, some real nutrition should perk him up and give him something to fight the infection with. He has a good chance now I believe.
Sending thoughts of healing for him.

Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margaret, 




Thank you...


When the Vet did that, I could tell it really hurt...and he has assumed a slightly different manner of poise since.


I was very gentle with my Catheter and softly 'hunted' for the bye-way, pulling his Head way 'up' with him vertical, so his Neck was fully extended... and found it...and this did not seem to cause any pain or discomfort.


So, he is laying down with his neck a little elongate for comfort-sake, and, I am waiting to see some 'poops' and of course that will take hours, but I still keep looking, like a little Kid waiting for those 'Presents' to appear in the erstwhile empty area under the Christmas Tree...


I probably should feed him again later tonight, so there will be more to go on as things go...



Phil
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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update, Phil. I'm glad you've now got "safe passage" for feeding. 

There is a very nice fellow who lives in La Habra that "discovered" me about a month ago. He feeds ferals in his yard and has a good knack/instinct for knowing when something is wrong with one of the birds and is good at catching them. We're kind of going through "How To Treat Ailing Pigeons 101" right now. I've gotten him to go over to JEDDS and get some basic meds and taught him what to use for what. Anyway .. sorry for the long discourse here .. he is still unsure of treating the birds so is bringing them to me when I'm working in Garden Grove at the rate of one or two a week. There is a TERRIBLE canker problem in the flock he is feeding and each one is just completely plugged and starving. The one he brought today was one such, and I was able to gently "squiggle" my crop needle down one side and get a good meal in. The "squiggling" did dislodge a pretty good chunk of the blockage (and thankfully no bleeding resulted), so I think we're on the mend with this bird. Was able to not only feed it well but also could get a canker tab down without too much trouble.

Best of luck with your bird, and please keep us posted.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 



Just-what-you-needed..!


But, maybe he will become an able operative and even a help to you as things go on..!



Yes, when the Canker obstructions have been in their Throats, I have not been shy to 'wiggle' or 'twirl' a thin, 'Julianne Cut' Catheter section down through it, and or usually there will be places it can pass through easily if one explore a little.


This blockage being too far down in the esopgagus for me to see visually, I was afraid to 'poke' too much or to try very hard to see if I could get a Catheter to pass through or around it...and I did not know how uch of it was 'Seeds' glued together with inflamitory debris 'glue' stuff...or if it is a ore or less solid 'plug' of inflaitory debris proper with only incidental Seeds bound up.


Possibly I err too often on the side of being tentative or having fears of doing harm.

Copared to me Vet, I definitely do...( err on the side of being too tentative or fears of doing harm...so, I guess that answers that...)


Canker does seem to be making the rounds amid the ferals here also, and making for different presentations than in previous years.


Oye...


Poor little Bug-a-Bugs...


Thank you Terry..!



Phil
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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hey Phil,

Neither you nor I are a vet, so we need to err on the side of being careful and only doing what we know is safe. I've seen my vet do some things that had me about ready to faint because I considered it so risky .. all was well as he knew what he was doing.

Continued good fortune to you and this bird.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Terry, 




Oh quite so...


I am that way with most things anyway...always was.


But then too, there are Vets out there who are 'Ham Fisted' or at least are in how they do things, and they can and will do harm by being too forceful or impetuous or naive, or all three.


So oye...time, experience, thinking, weighing...reviewing...learning...and seems like there are not too many short-cuts, or, if there are, I have not found them...


Love, 


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...bummer...

He'd been pretty wilty this evening and just dozing laying down...and quietly passed away around 3:00 A.M.


Don't know if the Doc's Q-Tip and subsequent feedings even went into his Crop, or just went through the side of the Esophagus.

The night's Poops were dark green bile and white Urates...so...kinda seems like we issed the Boat here.


He was definitely a sweet Bird and a good sport.



Phil
l v


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Phil,

So sorry about the passing of this little one. I was really hoping and praying for his recovery.

I know he received the best of care in your hands. He was so seriously ill. I'm sure he knew that he was loved and cared for. He passed peacefully during the night. Much easier than if he had been left alone in the streets. I have a real soft spot for these ferals since I rescued and rehabed my Jack.

Is this "Canker " thing a big problem here in Vegas???? I am worried about the flock that roosts and nests on my roof. I have approximately 26 birds up there nightly. In the past some have died for no apparent reason that I knew of. Since joining this forum I am only now starting to realize all the obstacals and problems these birds face.

Thanks again for all you do Phil.

There are many more for you to save.

Regards,
Louise


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I am so sorry Phil.

I too was following the thread and praying that he pulled though. This little bird couldn't have been in kinder hands for his final days.

Sue


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Oh, Phil,
You and your little friend fought the good fight for sure. If any one could have saved him, it would have been you.
Daryl


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about this sweet bird passing, but now he is in total peace, and thank you for all you did for him.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

So sorry Phil, I know you did your best. Many people expect the vet's visit to bring about a miracle, often that just doesn't happen. Sometimes the visit is so stressful it takes the patient over the limit. I know you are hurtin' but before you can dry your eyes there will be another seeking your help and thank God you are there.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, so sorry this little guy didn't make it.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,
Doggone it! I just caught up with this thread and am so sorry that you lost him. As others have said, at least he was dry, warm and out of other dangers with the sound of other pigeons about, the things he understood. I still don't think there was a perforated esophagus. I think he may have had extensive canker throughout his GI tract, so much so that it was beyond help, probably before you got to him. RIP little one. 

Margaret
PS I can't recall who told me this, but somewhere I was told or read that by the time canker is visible in the throat or mouth, it is pretty well under way in the body.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks everyone...




In brooding on this, my feeling is that he had a systemic infection of a Bacterial sort, which was not getting addressed well enough.

Possibly, he had Canker or other inflamitory debris in yet other locations of his Digestive system which I had no way to assay...BUT real honest-to-goodness 'poops' were getting made, even of the 'trickle' Liquid-Foods we had been doing initialy, and some several which even represented the tube feeding I did on getting home from the Vets.

Urates had become nice and 'White' instead of 'Yellow-Chalky'...

So there was progress on several fronts.



I had him on Baytril, and of course on the Anti-Canker Meds.


My feeling was that we were doing well on the Canker department. The esophagal obturation/blockage was getting gooey and slimey and on it's way to dissolving peripherally anyway...it was breaking up so to speak...and, on reflection, I think Margaret's hunch that his esophagus was alright may well be true, or, that it was not perforated by the Vet's or my subsequent minsterings...or else I would not be seeing 'real' Poops.

The poops were 'greenish' and in the dim light in the wee hours, I thought with disappointment, that they were merely 'bile'...possibly they had excess Bile in them, but, they were substantial poops and not 'just' Bile at all...so, for having looked better now with a good Flashlight, I find they were real 'poops' ...smallish aybe, but about right for how much he'd eaten, being processed.


So I think that he had a systemic Bacterial infection which the Baytril was not answering, or, I did not get enough Baytril into him, or both.


Probably I should have had him from the get-go, on a 'Cocktail' of three or four Antibiotics, but then too, there was so little I could put into his upper esophagus to 'trickle' down in leisure, and I was only able to do THAT for a few days before the slime and goo put the kibosh on that, so he went that day and a half with nothing.


Anyway, my sense of it, is that it was a systemic infection which got him...and had I posessed injectible versions of the several antibiotics of probable choice, then maybe I could have done that from the start.

He was so frail and "light' too, had been starving when I got him rounded up...I do not know if his little Kidneys would have gladly countinanced a medley of Antibiotics, but, if I had it do over, if I had had injectable versions, I think it would have been worth trying.


And probably I should have tried 'drilling' through the blockage with a soft Catheter right away to be able to get real nourishments into him. I just felt scared to try doing that too soon, and or I knew once it got 'gooey' then I could do so much more safely.


He did get quite a bit of cuddling from the beginning...he soon 'nuzzled' and was enthusiastic about wanting to eat, wanting to be fed. He liked being held snug and warm against my chest in my hands. He was an Adult or a young adult rather, far as I could tell.

He was very friendly and at ease with things, and till the last day, he was standing mostly, and interested in his surrounds.


He liked the Heating Pad and would lay off and on with his Crop and Neck on it, with the rest of his body not on it, so he figured that out right away, and made use of it as he liked.


I maybe know a little more now about what to do for situations like his...


And or to have it driven home, that probable systemic infections of unknown sort, need not present conspicuous symptoms ( other than slow decline, 'wilting'), whatever the ostensible and conspicuous issues may be ( Canker, starvation, logistical troubles of getting anything past an obturated esophagus ) that in this case, had occupied my attentions primarily.




Phil
l v


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