# Railroad encounter



## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Hi, name is Bob. I'm a new member as of now, yet not a stranger when it comes to pigeons. I've had as many as 4 dozen at one time, back in the days. Long story short, I am a Train Engineer, working Boston-New York corridor on a daily basis. I am an animal lover and proud "parent" of 4 dogs, all rescued from various shelters, except one, which is a pure Shepard. 
I have been exposed to numerous traumatic experiences while on duty, in which case, the train always won. Humans and animals were involved, and I will just stop here.

5 days ago I was stopped to discharge passengers, and noticed a baby pigeon tucked under the rail platform. Given the fact that a hwy bridge was nearby, I figured he fell out of his nest, since the parents were still feeding him. Tresser was 35-40 feet high, and that's where the nest was. I drove by the spot each day, and here he was, untouched or unharmed, just waiting for his parents, who by now have long abandoned him(or her). I kept looking at the chick while stopped, and he kept looking back, with its dark eyes and somehow asking for some kind of help. 

Got home that night, but my mind was focused on this innocent creature's overall expression, which prompted me to pick him up the next day. Brought it home and started caring for it as it was my own kid (I do have 2 Daughters). He's almost back to normal now, after 2 days of intensive care and constant watch on my part. I even took a day off to make sure he'll be OK for the first 24 hours or so.

Not sure about how old he may be, altough my rough estimate is around 1 month or so. 
Seems that he's doing well, I've been feeding him oatmeal, polenta (crushed corn) by using a dropper, since he cannot find his way around food yet. 

He rides the locomotive with me for the past 2 days, in a laundry basket, cushioned by a few soft towels. 

It's funny how a little thing like this can have such a huge impact on someone's life. 
Sorry for the long story. I hope you don't mind.

Bob.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, welcome to Pigeon-Talk and thanks for helping this little guy out.

If you could post up a photo of him, it would be helpful, here are a few links you may find useful:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=475500&postcount=26
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=504161&postcount=25

If you have any questions, please ask away, there are lots of great people here who will help you out.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Bob your story is very sweet, you were there when he needed you and that is so nice... keep us posted on his progress and we love pics!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Excellent story (well...most of it  ). Just keep an eye for the usual signs of illness (fluffed up feathers, lethargy, sleepy eyes, fast breathing) and keep doing what you are doing. If you have any opportunity to pick up some Kaytee Exact baby bird formula, that stuff is good.

Also, at 1 month +/-.....you could start veggie popping lukewarm peas and corn to start moving him/her to solids.

Keep up the good work !


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Hi! Thanks for your kind words, more so, for a warm welcome.

I have a few pics, but remember, they were taken the evening I brought her home, so the bird was beat up, hungry and tired after being under a platform for 4 days. 

I'll try to insert one picture below, not sure if I can do it right, but worth a shot.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Thanks for helping the poor fellow Bob  He will be going on a weight gain schedule now I guess


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Not quite sure about feeding habits. I tend to keep up with her every 6 hours or so. Is that OK, or perhaps I should do it less often, say at 8 -10 hour interval? Thing is, she rides the locomotive with me at all times, therefore I do what I think is best for her, which is not always true, so to speak. I can't leave her home since she would have to wait about 12-14 hours between feeding, and this is the reason why she's riding with me every day. 
She needs to learn how to pick food and eat on her own. Not sure how long it would take, but as long as she learns how to, without me having to help, that would be a great achievement on her part.

Everything seems OK for now, my dogs love her, and she doesn't seem to mind them either. 

What other kinds of food can I use, besides the crushed oatmeal and corn meal mix? Any special requirements? I also feed her sunflower kernels and sometimes half dried whole wheat bread crumbs, all done by hand. 
Any other ideas? I don't really have the time to search entire forum, that's why I'm asking. Need to be up and running in 4 hours. 
Once again, thanks for your kind words!

Bob


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

awwwww OMG that baby is cute.
its about 3 weeks old. still need you to feed him/her.
continue feeding for another 2-3 weeks and in the mean time...
later the way i wean my baby pigeons.. i leave seeds in front and i peck on the seeds with my fingers.
babies usually pick it up.. hmmm she peckingit maybe i should too.
just in the case i would keep the dogs away. u never know.
accidents can happend.
i dont feed the babies with formula they sell in pet stores.
they do fine on cooked rice... 
oatmeal. whole brain cerials. all made into liquid diet so it fits the surringe.
hard boiled eggs,
corn...
at that age they eat a lot..
if u can get a surringe at the local pharmacy ( they will give it to u free) take at east 10 cc surringe so u can keep cound of how much the baby eats.
i would go for 30 cc  some pigeons take more.
feed whenever u see that the crop isnt full. no specific time of the day..

still too early for him to eat on his own..

and one more thing..i envy you for finding him.
i just released my last baby i had raised and im searching for the new one.
the best job in the world is raising baby pigeons.. so thankfull.
get ready for lots and lots of fun.. and everything that goes with it 

good luck, and thanks for taking him in )))))


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob, 


If he will 'Nuzzle' your Fingers asking to be fed, you can make your Hand into an imprmptu Daddy-Beak, like this -





Thumb tip goes on top of their Beak...Seeds roll down the 'trough' and into their Beak as they open and close it, 'gobbling' as if they were eating from mom or dad's Throat. They need to feel your finger tip pads on their Beak to understand in their terms, that this is your way of feeding them about as mom or dad would have.


You can feed five or six times-a-day, small to medium size Meals...to where, you want to see say, 45 good poops every 24 hours.

Once working out thie Finger tips on 'Nuzzling' Beak,or even as a place to begin, you can guide the Beak to some Tepid Water, keeping your finger tips in the Beak, and he will drink, "Like-a-Horse"...( Water must be close to body temp or he will refuse it).

Once getting this method of feeding down, you can similarly guide his Beak into a small Cup of small whole Seeds, keeping your finger tip pads on his Beak so it 'feels' to him enough like his parent's Throat, and, he will 'gobble' the Seeds in the Cup, and stuff himself silly in no time, so watch out not to allow him to over do it.


Go to 'Petsmart' and get some Canary or Finch Mix, and some White Safflower Seeds, and, also add the raw, Sunflower Seed 'Hearts' you mentioned...this would be a good mix then.

Forget Bread Crumbs...but, small size unpopped 'Pop Corn' is good...


More later...

Good going!


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Folks, I do appreciate every piece of advice you have provided me with, and rest assured, I will do as instructed. Let me see how she reacts using the various suggested methods. I do use a dropper to feed her, but otherwise she hasn't responded to any other kind of stimulation, including the 3 finger trick. She's trying, but without much luck. I'll work on it, maybe in time she will become used to it.

Meanwhile, yet another question, one that I'm reluctant to ask. 
Is it true that popcorn kernels are sometimes used to eliminate pigeons by "baiting" the surrounding nest area with raw popcorn kernels?
I've seen it done and it only took 2 days until about 17 birds were laying dead, spread out all over the maintenance yard. 
To me, it is one of the most cruel pigeon population control method. 
Reason was because the poor birds were pooping on people's cars, which were parked under a bridge, where more than 10 permanent nests existed year-round.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob,




'Avitrol' is usually very large whole Kernals of Corn...the size of 'Chicklets' almost.


I have never heard of small Popcorn Corn Kernals being used in any Avicide context...but, if a person soaks them in a poison, and re-dries them, I suppose it could be done.


Normal wholesome unpopped Popcorn Kernal-Corn are a good nutritious food for Pigeons.

The smallest size possible is best for thin, weak, or preciously starved Birds, when one feels assured they can in fact handle whole medium-sized Seeds, since their interior passages my not be as elastic or large as other previously well fed Pigeons.




An Eye Dropper unfortunately is a very impractical and also dangerous way of trying to feed a Pigeon of any age...and is especially dangerous for trying to supply liquids since it is an un-natrual method his reflexes will not be responsive to, and he can aspirate foods or liquids into his Trachea/Airways, and die.


Guiding his Beak ( to Tepid Water ) as described will allow him to drink volentarily with his reflexes in operation...he will know what to do.


He will gladly eat and drink as active and assertive agent if you would undertake the method I had described, which will also very quickly lead to him self feeding by pecking, and drinking on his own, without, need of guidence, but supervision is still needed for a while once self-feeding by pecking, to make sure he does not over-eat and over-stuff his Crop in newfound enthusiasm.

For now, this would be an excellent way for him to be fed, and for him to be allowed to both eat and drink in terms he can understand...which are volentary and natural and safe for him, and, for him then to be catching up from prior privation/malnutrition/dehydration.



If he is not assetively 'Nuzzling' ( ie" asking to be fed ), try slightly moistening your finger tips in warm water, shake off the drops, and softly 'massage' his Beak, doing so from the front, hand arriving from about his Eye level.


Done right, this will indicate to him, you are offering to feed him.


If he responds by tentative 'Squeaking', 'Nuzzling', 'Shoulder Humping', gently guide his Beak into some tepid Water, just use a flat bommon low Coffee Cup or short Mug so it is not too tall for him to drink from, and he will drink.


This will advance the understanding then, for you to then offer Seeds in your 'Beak' Hand, more or less as seen in the image, and, he will enthusiastically welcome this, and 'gobble' the Seeds, shoving his little Beak into the finger-trough, down which the Seeds roll for him to get and swallow.



Just work with this and see if you can get it worked out...it may take a few tries and some learning on your part.

Do this with him standing on a Towel draped over your lap as you sit...Towel catches any missed Seeds, comfortable for you both as well.


This method will be vastly easier on you both, fun for him, natural, safe, and effecient.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks pdpbison! To this day, I have no idea how the guys managed to rid of so many birds by using this method, however, you may be right. They may have been using Avitrol. None the less, plenty have perished, and this happens on a yearly basis.

On a different note. My dogs are very intrigued by the little guy. However, the 10 year old German Shepard is extremely protective of her. Not only that, she won't let any of the other 3 dogs get quite close to it. More so, she allows the bird to cuddle up to her on a regular basis. I haven't seen anything like this before. I'll try to take a picture of them if I can, since the dog doesn't quite like the camera, not sure why. She takes off everytime I try to snap a picture or two. 
It's quite funny and at the same time, very touching to witness this kind of behaviour on their part. 
Meanwhile, everything seems just fine, but I'll tell you, having to care for it is a time consuming task. But I can deal with it, after all, I gave her the second chance she very well deserved.

One more thing: she drinks water from a small plastic cup without any problems. Feeding is another issue. I will try the methods that you've been so kind to share with me, since I've been using a dropper, not being familiar with any other kind of techniques, but the only one that came to mind.
I'll keep you folks posted on this.
Once again, many thanks!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, this little guy looks to be quite under weight. Please look at the links I posted (post #2 in this thread) on how to feed him. The first link contains information on how to feed with a modified baby bottle and others on using a modified very large syringe, with the end cut off, they both use a product called Kaytee Hand-feeding Formula, please see if you can pick some up. The second link contains information by Phil from other posts he has made that contain some of the information he has posted directly to this thread.

At this age they should be consuming about 80-100mL (in ounces, 2.7-3.4, more or less) of formula food a day, broken into 3-4 feedings, and at around three weeks should normally weigh over 260+ grams (most babies I have weighed at about this age, from my birds, are over 280+ grams), using a dropper has saved his life (would need to be getting 80-100 eyedroppers full a day to fulfill his needs), but I think we really need to start to get a whole lot more food into him by easier methods, any chance of a weight for him?

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Karyn, I'm not very familiar when it comes to size/weight ratio in pigeons, especially young ones. All I can tell you is that her body is about 4 inches inches long, neck to tail, not including rear feather lenght. I just weighed her, came up to 125-130 grams. I used a small kitchen scale, not sure how accurate it is, but at least it should give you an idea.
Two days ago she weighed a little over 90 grams, so I assume that whatever I did, helped her to some extent.

However, I mispoke when I sated that I was using an eye dropper. What I do use is a 4cc seringe (sp?) with the end cut out, so that some of the rougher and thicker pieces of the oatmeal/corn meal mix that I feed her, will pass through the opening. 
She had about 6-7 portions since this morning, plus some whole sunflower seed kernels, pieces of dried bread and some lettuce.She drank plenty of luke warm water, and right now she's taking a nap. 
Remember, I take her to work with me, actually arrived in Boston about 1 hour ago. Have 2 hours layover, after which we'll be on our way back. 

I feed her often while on the road, between stops and departure times. My rough estimate comes down to about 20 plus portions of 4cc's per day, not including other food items.
She begun to learn how to eat the soft mix on her own, without me having to use the seringe (sp?), by actually placing her head into the small container where the food is. 

As far as weight is concerned, we have a long way to go, since from what I understand by reading your post, she shoud be twice as heavy. But I'm working on it. 

One thing though: she does love to poop on the locomotive's rest table. I tend to have her out of the basket once in a while. 
I'll take another picture of her later on, you may be able to see the difference between then and now.
Thanks everyone for their advice and ideas.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, the scale you have should be accurate enough to give us a rough idea were she is at, and you're right, she should be at least twice as heavy as she currently is. I think you got to her in the nick of time and what you have been doing has been life saving, and good to see you have managed to get a bit of weight on her, but we need to step things up a bit more for her. Here is a link to the whole thread that I posted a link to, for the feeding part:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/3-4-week-pigeon-44734.html

The caregiver in this thread had a bird similar to yours (but not as underweight) and although he had some experience with birds, just did not have an idea of how much food these guys really need when they are growing. He followed the instructions in the thread and managed to double his bird's weight in about a week's time, with a happy outcome. The instructions will be the same for your little guy, but I really think it's important that you locate, and buy the Kaytee Hand-Feeding Formula (a company called Zupreem also makes a good one), as it really has everything in it she needs to grow and thrive. Call around to some drugs stores and see if you can find a few 25-30cc syringes, if they don't have them, ask them where you can buy them. Watch the feeding video clips and ask if you have any questions. In a few days after you have her going on the formula, we will slowly thicken it up a bit and start to add some small seeds (finch/canary/budgie) into it, so while you are at the pet store pick up a bag of it and a bag pigeon/dove mix for a little later still (if they don't have the pigeon/dove mix, get a bag of wild-bird seed, the kind without sunflower seeds in it).

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob, 



Indeed, as Karyn suggests, a nutritious Formula would be very good.

I was just trying to allow you a simpler means, and, once you have that down, his Seeds can also have suppliments added easily, to increase the range and breadth of Nutrition.


His Beak can be guided into a small cup of Formula, and, he will 'gobble' it just as he would small whole Seeds.


There are so many ways novices go wrong with making and managing formula, I usually hate to suggest it unless it is an actual Infant Pigeon, too young for Seeds.


If you can get to a Petsmart or other Pet related Store, get the Seeds mentioned, and, get a container of 'Kay Tee' or 'Zupreme' Baby Bird formula.

It is a powder one mixes with Water.


One either works with the Pigeon, and allows the Pigeon to eat Volentarily, by support and guidence, or, one Tube Feeds...trying to find expedient compromises will tend to occasion liabilities for the Bird.

Trying to put formula into a Beak with a plain end Syringe is extremely tedious and also as dangerous as an Eye Dropper would be.


Hence, how elegent and easy to simply guide their Beak as described, for them to eat volentarily.


Formula needs to be served close to body temperature.


Mix, let sit a half hour or hour, covered, add enough more Water for it to be about like melted Ice Cream on a hot day...stirring very thoroughly...then freeze.


Thaw in a Pan of warm water, stirring thoroughly.

It will then be correctly hydrated.

Freeze untill next meal time.


Make a small Coffee or Tea Cup worth at a time.


People who - as usual - just run some hot water from the tap, stirr, and feed, often cause serious, sometimes lethal problems in the Bird's Crop, because the formula mix was not hydrated properly, even if it seemed liquidy to them at the time, where the formula becomes a semi-impervious 'slug' in the Crop, which does not pass, which begins to ferment and teem with bacteria, causing illness.


So to do it right is a lot of hassle, relatively, and almost no one when presented with the information or choice to do it right, is interested, since almost everyone wants the least demanding shortcut, or to appeal to a perceived 'authority; who recommends or advocates the short cut, and goes into denial or gets testy or claims so-and-so got away with it, if sidelights are offered as to why doing it right matters.



Meanwhile, we have an endless parade of these very problems, illnesses and fatalities from incompetent feeding, and an endless parade of replies which are just as uninformed as the initial advise and wrong methods were which caused it.


Formula is a lot of work if it is to be done with the safety and health of the Pigeon in mind.

People want it to be about them and what is fastest and least effort for them...and get very resistive about any over view or reason why better understandings would be desireable.



Anyway...


Post some good, close up, in focus images of some fresh poops?



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, Phil made some very good mentions. I forgot to mention to pick up, or scrounge, a few latex gloves to cover the cut off end of the syringe, that we will cut a small slit in to feed. Also forgot to mention that although she is past the age where she would need supplemental heat to help her survive, it would be good if she could be kept in warm surroundings, as best as possible through the day, and if you wanted to to you could pick her up an inexpensive heating pad (the kind without the auto-shutoff) and double fold a towel and place it on top and put this in the area she sleeps at night (set to low only, and make sure she has room to move on to, and off, the warmth as she desires). This will help her preserve calories/reserves that she would use up maintaining her body heat, helping her keep and add body mass.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

As Karyn mentions, yes indeed...supplimental warmth would be good.


The very thin often have trouble making enough body-heat for themselves, and or are spending a lot of calories doing so, so supplimental warmth saves them energy they can use to be rebuilding-filling out themselves.


I deal with quite a few starved, or starved and sick youngster and adult Pigeons.


When having suffered prolongued privations, and depending on some of the details, I will Tube Feed directly into the Crop, and, on a graduated schedule so as not to over-do their calorie intake for what they can handle well.

We will do this for a week maybe, and then into small whole Seeds either by me Hand-Beak feeding, or them pecking, or me supporting them in their pecking.

Usually a starved Pigeon is a sick Pigeon, and or, is in some early stages of being sick.

Once being provided with adequate Nutrition, their system will yes or no correct the illness on it's own...so, one does well to be observent for cues or hints of illness, in case any are evolving faster than their system can eliminate them.

Any Drug Store should have basic Heating Pads for like $12.00 or $14.00 or so, usually four position switch - on, low, medium, high...and the kind with no 'cut off' breaker is best, since one wants the darned thing to STAY "on", of course...Lol...


Cardboard Box, lined with white Paper Towels, with Look-Outs cut into the sides for over-night sleep...is a good way to keep them...Box top open, and a light sheer cloth draped over it so light can filter in.


This also allows one to note and evaluate the Poops on a nice white background...and is easy to change the Paper Towels each morning.



Phil
Lv


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

I must thank you folks for providing me with such good advice. 
First of all, I must reply to Karyn's post. Just got home about half hour ago, yet I've already ordered the Kaytee feeding formula online, which should be here by Saturday. More so, I now have a 25cc syringe, thanks to my Doctor who was kind enough to let me have a few.
I also purchased a bag of pigeon seed mix, as you suggested earlier. Just waiting for the formula to arrive.

Now, as far as Phil's post is concerned, I was also impressed by his comments and advice, as I was with Karyn's. 

None the less, I am not the type of person who does things in a hurry. I do not like shortcuts by any means. 

I usually prepare the mix the right way, on top of the stove. I take with me whatever is left, since I'm constantly on the road (actually railroad), and feed her with every chance I get. Have to use a microwave to heat up each portion, since I have no other alternative. Water is no problem, and she does drink quite often. 
None the less, today was the first time when she actually fed on her own for a while, without me helping at first, after which I had to take over.
Keeping her warm is not an issue. I keep her indoors at home, tucked in a large nest shaped towel. Same thing applies when working, the loco's control cab is always warm and cozy unless I crank up the A/C unit. 

It isn't an easy task having to care for her, and surely not for everyone, but I did and will do my best. One cannot cut corners when a life is at stake, regardless of circumstances.

For now, I'm the laugh of the town. Getting off the engine at the end of the day, carrying a blue laundry basket and a backpack. Sure, folks are joking about it, but most are aware of the situation.

Thanks again for your invaluable input!


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

RobertV said:


> I must thank you folks for providing me with such good advice.
> First of all, I must reply to Karyn's post. Just got home about half hour ago, yet I've already ordered the Kaytee feeding formula online, which should be here by Saturday. More so, I now have a 25cc syringe, thanks to my Doctor who was kind enough to let me have a few.
> I also purchased a bag of pigeon seed mix, as you suggested earlier. Just waiting for the formula to arrive.
> 
> ...


u are amazing. i love you


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm sure glad I found this website, without which I would have been strugling right now, and that's the truth. I'm impressed by the fact that every reply that I got was positive, helpful and extremely informative. Truly, I had no idea about how well respected pigeons were, until now. Is it true that this species is considered a sacred bird? In my opinion, it should.

BTW, I forgot to mention something. Took a few minutes and put together a feeding gadget. Very basic and easy to make. Used a foot of 1/2 inch PVC pipe, stuffed it with pieces of cloth, and at each end I installed 2 elbows, one shaped at 90 degrees and the other at a 45 degree angle. Both ends are round, about 3/4 inch deep and 1/2 inch in diameter. I used it for the first time today when feeding the bird some pigeon seed mix which I scooped up by using the end of the "toy". She was eating out of it about 10 seconds later. It was quite an amazing site. Had to repeat the process a few times until she finally quit eating.
It is a good impression of an wide open beak (sp?), not too deep and large enough to hold a few good mouthfulls of seeds. It also worked with the oatmeal/cornmeal mix. Little one had no problem with it. 
Just another aspect that I wasn't aware of. I thought of it on my way home and it was worth a try. I'm glad that she can now eat without much help other than "course correction".


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

its true that they considered sacred...
always mentioned in bible....
what i came across one day about pigeons being sacred...some claim they are our only messangers.. connection to god.
angels dressed as doves...
int he world they always represent the peace...


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Goga, you are right. I read the Bible many times over, as I was raised and brought up to be very religious in many ways. 

They are indeed the simbol of Peace. Perhaps someday we, as a whole, can become what they are considered now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob,


Best not to microwave any formula directly ( for several reasons, trust me)...maybe, instead, if no other warming means is available for the formula, microwave some Water in a flat bottom styrofoam 'Chili-Cup' kinda thing, then, set the container of formula into that, stirring, to warm it thoroughly.



If needing to make a day's batch of formula, and unable to keep it refrigerated or frozen, add a few drops of Vinegar to it, and this will help it not to spoil.


Toss any left then, at the end of the day, and make new.


Apple Sauce ( unsweetened kind ) is also very good to add to formula.

Apple Sauce and KT with a few drops of Vinger is really good tasting too.


If you go back to the Pet Store, get a tube of 'Nutrical' or it's renamed equivelent...this will be on the Kitten-Puppy application isle.

This can also be added to formula, one of it to three formula, say, and is very good for playing 'Catch-Up' with previously starved Pigeons.




Formula will tend to thicken as the day rolls on, so always add more Water, stirring well, for it to be about like Melted Ice Cream on a hot day for consistency.


Glad to hear they are getting onto eating with mere supervision/presence...they are of the age where this would be expected.


For them, food is something untill now, was never seen, only 'felt' as continuous with the emotion and thrill of being fed by a parent.

The thrill and emotion continue for a while, even when learning to eat on their own, so, your presence, your hand against them, pretending to 'peck' with your crook'd index finger, can all be very important to a youngster.


I am confident he will also really enjoy perching to watch out the front Wind Screen of the Locomotive!


I would too, of course! Who wouldn't!


Can you post some good, close up images of some fresh poops?


Also, are there any Health Food Stores near you? ( some things you could get which would be good for him, for adding to formula, and or adding to Seeds ).



Lastly, if you wish to preserve the option of this Pigeon being released to the Wild Worlds, make sure not to let him perch on you, but allow him to perch next to you or close, or to lay on a Towel on your Lap, or to be fed on a Towel on your Lap, or other things along those lines, just not on your Head or Shoulder.


Later, he can leave behind the attatchment to his adopted Dad, and leave behind the manners of relating he had enjoyed in his youngsterhood in relating to his adopted Dad, and, be Wild and steer clear of People.

But, if inadvertainly 'trained' to perch on one's Head or Shoulder, he may accidently do this As a Wild Bird, merely repeating an old habit, and freak someone out or get swatted...somehow there are limits as to the reptiore they will leave behind, and, things they will bring with...so, we have to watch this, not to accidently give them things to bring with which could get them into trouble.


Just so you know...



Phil
Lv


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Phil, I don't have much spare time left for today. All I can do for now is to insert a photo of an HHP-8 Locomotive, and you can perhaps notice the remaining stains on the right, below the auto brake valve control, and a tiny one on the left, below the reverser handle. I did my best trying to clean the poops but I guess I have to start over by using a different cleaning solution, instead of what I used on route, such as water and soap.
I'll be gone for a few days, but rest assured, I'll be back before I know it


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, I think you will very quickly get up to speed on things, you just needed a little help pointing you in the right directions. Again, lots of good mentions by Phil, and I agree microwaves are to be avoided, best to heat, if at all possible, like Phil advised. Glad she took right to the pigeon mix, but a word of caution, when they have suffered privations, like this little one has, when they get to eating on their own, sometimes they can over stuff themselves on food, so be careful about this with her for a while. The Kaytee, applesauce, Nutrical and a few drops of vinegar (always get/buy organic apple cider vinegar, ACV, with the "Mother Wort" still active in it) will do her a world of good. As a result of the privations, this mix will provide a real boost in vitamins and calcium (added to the Kaytee) that her body, especially her bones will need, to grow strong and make up for lost ground on the nutrition side of things.

The rest sounds good, I think you are doing great with her.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob, 


Yes...for now, and for a while yet, any Seed eating he is doing by pecking, should be with supervision, and, at least a Hand resting on or against his Wing or shoulder, or a crook'd index finger 'pecking' with him.

This re-assures him, supplies companionship, and makes for the least conflict for his emotions.


Lots of compliments, 'positive mirroring' and all round emotional dimensions of support and looking after, are best.


His biological Dad would have been supervising and showing him things, generating approvals and admirations and giving positive attentions, and, now your in that Driver's Seat of course...so...


Small to medium size Meals, however often, and no over-stuffing.

How much is enough for a meal?

Lol...


Uhhhhhhh, say, half what mild over stuffing would be, and more than too little.


Probably, one Fluid Ounce of "Volume", for Seeds or formula, would be about right for a given 'meal', for him, for now, or, some of both to equal about that amount...

This can increase soon, but, for now, things need to be in deference to him and his thinned out innards and outards and likely somewhat shrunken Crop capacity, and his recovering system generally.


If his system passes a meal rapidly, and he is making lots of nice poops bing-bang-boom-bang-bing, than the next meal can be that much sooner.

If his Crop has not passed pretty well all of the last meal, wait till it does before next Chow Time.


Good, close up, in focus, images of his poops would be good for us to see...( can help in evaluating aspects of his health).



More pictures of him too!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wow...


Locomotive Cabin is really lovely, clean, and very tastefully Modern. Looks very user-friendly...while also looking totally all Business.

Almost like an early 'Star Treck' Work Station!



Spit can work well for blotting out Pigeon poop stains on textured Vinyl or related...as can 'Coca Cola' or other carbonated soft drinks...Lemon Juice...and there is a product called 'Poop Off' ( easy to get on e-bay or pet stores ) which is said to work very well.


The only Locomotive Cabin I ever got to stand in, looked like this -


http://earthseaimagery.com/images/Steam_Locomotive_Cab_Interior.jpg


The old Steam era ones were not very 'Pigeon Friendly' when underway, I would guess...too many Hot Pipes and Valves!! Oye...


Lol...


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Some good things to add to Formula -





The 'Nutri-Stat' ( used to be called 'Nutrical ) is a brown goo...any Petsmart or similar will carry it.


The 'Green Lightening' is powderes Super Greens...and, the 'Goji 100' is Goji Berry Juice, and any Health food Store will have these, usually up by the counter. Individual packets of the Green Lightening are available.


If say making 3/4rs of a Tea Cup Worth of Formula, you can add 1/3rd or 1/2 the packet of the Green Lightening, an ample Tablespoon of the Goji Juice, and, likewise of the 'Nutri-Stat'.


These add very nicely to the Nutritional and caloric value of the Formula, and aid in a Pigeon catching up for lost weight and vigor.

You can also sprinkle a little B-Vitamin Complex from any people type Capsules into the formula...though this can make their urates a tad yellowish.


He is probably going to loose interest in formula in the near future, no matter how good it tastes...he might stay interested for another couple weeks, three weeks maybe, who knows.


So, may as well Make Hay while the Sun Shines, on that...


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

OK folks, back from the dead, as they say...sorry for not being able to reply sooner, but some folks are on vacation and I had to fill in for some of them.
Bird is doing just fine, she's up to 190 grams or so, a good sign I guess, since last week she was only about 130. I got home (actually, WE got home) about 1 hour ago, found the Kaytee mix at the front door. Problem is, she doesn't quite like it for some reason. Ever since I got her, she's been on corn meal/oatmeal mix, which she was OK with, but I replaced the latter with cream of wheat, which she does love. Ratio is 1/3 corn meal to 2/3 cream of wheat. 
However, she didn't quite enjoy the Kaytee mix for some reason. Not sure why, but after mixing it with cream of wheat, the cup was empty in no time.
More so, the seed mix wasn't a good choice in this case. She was quite lethargic, and began to throw up, which scared the living lights out of me. A few hours later, after regurgitating(sp?) undigested/whole seeds, she was back to normal and extremely hungry. That's when the "magic" mix came into the picture. 
I use a very small plastic container to prepare the food, and feed her in small protions, about 5-7 times a day, maybe more, depending on circumstances. 
I did try apple sauce as well, not well tolerated, and I do believe it was the main reason why everything happened. Don't ask me, I have no clue why. None the less, she is doing very well. 
Likes riding the train, motion seems to have a calming effect on her for some reason. Plus I crank up the heat every now and then. Loves that too. 
One strange thing: I have 3 dogs, one of which is a German Shepard female. She's always by her side, sleeping by the basket (which is in the house when I'm home), and she won't let the other two dogs anywhere near her. I have a few pics, but I still cannot understand why and how a dog can grow so attached to a bird, especially because they chase wild ones on a daily basis, since my house is located in the woods. 

Guess I forgot to mention other details, so you may go ahead and ask, since I can't think of everything right now. Point is, she's OK, gained weight, flapping wings and making friends. Not afraid of my dogs either, always pecking at their snouts, kind of funny if you ask me.

Once again, I am grateful to all of you for providing me with such a vast ammount of information and various ideas. I can't thank you enough!

BTW, Phil, the locomotive is a HHP-8 model, pictured below:










8,000 HP unit, but fully computerized. Easy to manage BUT tough when it quits on you with 300 plus passengers onboard .


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robert,



The plain old regular 'Malto Meal' is a good one also...they love that Malt flavor.



If the throw-up is still available, see if it has any odor.


She should not be throwing up, so, something is not right.


Once six or seven or so days old, parent Pigeons are feeding Seeds to their Babys.


What exactly were the Seeds you got? And, did she peck them and eat volintarily? Or?



Can you post some good, close up images of some fresh poops?


Do you have real-actual Apple Cider Vinegar on hand?


Sit down, under a good light, open her Beak, and look well into her Mouth and Throat...also get your Nose in there and see if any odor.


If need be, drape a small Hand-Towel or cloth across your knees, get her Legs straight back against her Tail...mush her lightly into the middle trough, facing you, and wrap one side then the other of the small cloth around her, so she is like a snug 'Burrito'...

She may then be Spigoted vertically with her Tail to Tummy area held just behind your knees, this way 2/3rds of her are above the hold-line so to speak...and, you can have both Hands free to open the Beak and inspect things.


Nice Locomotive!!


Long as they can see out like we do, Pigeons love to ride in Cars, Aeroplanes, or anything else where the scenery rolls by...probably all Birds would...it is fun for them.


If they can not see out, they will get Car Sick or be miserable.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, animals, and dogs in particular are very intuitive, I am sure your dog is picking up on how protective you feel toward this little guy and is mirroring you. Well, she's headed in the right direction, glad to hear the Kaytee arrived and you found a way to balance it with the Cream of Wheat to get her to want to eat it, as there is lots of good stuff in the Kaytee to help her grow. You can make the Kaytee/Cream of Wheat mix a little more calorie dense by adding a bit of fresh olive oil to the mix, you can add 1/2 teaspoon (2.5mL) of oil to every 4 tablespoons (60mL) of mix, this should boost the calorie content about 20% to help her put on weight a little quicker.

Could be nothing, but Phil is right about looking a little closer at things to make sure all is well, sounds like you had a bit of a scare with her, so best to do as he says to check things out, plus posting up an photo of her recent droppings would be very good, as we can tell a whole lot from them. Quite an impressive office you have there, glad you have someone to ride shotgun with you.

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Phil, she did not quite pick the seeds on her own, I kind of tried to "force feed" her, which was a big mistake on my part, I have to admit.
I gave her small seeds, not sure what kind or brand they were, but I did soon realized they were not right for some reason.
Meanwhile, I did exactly what you suggested about 15 min ago, before feeding her one last time for today. No strange smells, nothing down her throat far as I can tell, poop color is mixed, white, black and some green, but consistency (sp?) seems similar to what I see on the ground, at work, each day, from adult birds.

Since the entire episode lasted a few hours, and that was about a week ago, I couldn't tell you if the throw-up had any kind of smell to it. Thing is, everything is OK right now, no odors or otherwise in her mouth, nor down her throat. 
She's full of energy, loves roaming around whenever I let her loose, either at home on the porch, or anywhere else where she can see the surrounding area. 
I do not have any apple cider vinegar available, but I do have real, natural apple cider, which I bought yesterday from my neighbour's farm, since I do like it.

You are right, the bird loves to watch her surroundings, more so when she can explore the world on her own, out of the basket, like this afternoon for example. She walked and jumped around the patio, with my dog at her side, for quite a while, after which she jumped right back into what she calls home, asking for food. 
Funny thing is, she doesn't need to see me. Hearing my voice tends to trigger some kind of a positive reaction, becomes alert and very demanding, just like a small child. 

We'll be back on the road again Friday afternoon, but it may take a few days before I will be able to return back home. One more week of overtime after which everything returns to normal. Meaning that I will be home every night for a change. Besides, I am not allowed to work more than 12 hours a day, regardless of circumstances. But if I run out of time in Washington, DC, well, I have to camp out there until I can get back on the road. 
BTW...she loves watching outside the cab's window, more so because I keep her out of the basked for most of the trip. Sometimes she falls asleep on top of the defroster vent, which is nice and warm.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robert,


Oh okay, I was thinking the throw-up was very recent.


She should be eating or being fed Seeds...but not fed by force or imposition...she should be worked with for you to feed her for her to be eating volitionally.

Done right, she will be very happy with this, and so will you.


I have one here who is likely well over two months old, a Wild Pigeon who has the PPMV ( a virus which can effect their nervious system where it can get very difficult or them to peck effectively) and he'd been starving before I found him...anyway, he 'Nuzzles' and I feed him with my Hand, as I had described in an earlier Post, where he is eating about as if my Hand were a Pigeon-Parent's Beak/Throat.


Please review these earlier Posts where this method was described...I had an image of a white Grizzle youngster eating from my Hand-Finger 'Beak'.


He loves it, it works great, and I have been keeping him stuffed silly.


You need to be working on this with yours...and, getting some appropriate Seeds would be best.


I know you do not have much time to get out and around to look for things, but, some regular Pigeon Mix would be great, if you could get some.

Any Farm and Feed Store should have it, and a 40 lb Bag is usually like $22.00 - 25.00.


Otherwise, 'Petsmart', and get the White Safflower Seeds, and, maybe a Finch or Canary Mix of small whole Seed variety...and, Health Food Store for raw Sunflower Hearts and raw Oat Groats.


No roasted Nuts of any kind...just so you know...


Have fun!


Post some good, close up, in focus image of some fresh poops when you get a chance...and an up-dated image of her too of course.


Phil
Lv


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Karyn, you are so right! I've had dogs since I can remember, and noticed that the older one is always the most gentle and protective, as being the head of the pack, so to speak. But I've never experienced nor seen this kind of bond between a mammal and a bird, perhaps due to the fact that i never had to deal with this kind of scenario. None the less, it is something worth mentioning.

I will follow your suggestion in regards to olive oild added to the mixture. Plus whatever else Phil was kind enough to share with us.

Speaking of my office....that's my side, where the controls are. The left side quite plain, and that's where I keep the basket for the most part of any trip. 

I'll keep you posted, it may take 2-3 days until I can reply again, perhaps even longer, but I'll be back..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okeydokey..!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> She walked and jumped around the patio, with my dog at her side, for quite a while, after which she jumped right back into what she calls home, asking for food.


Bob, chronologically she is at an age where she is supposed to be capable of flight, but physically, she is not quite there yet. So be careful with her outings going forward, as age and ability will meet at some point in the near future and we don't want her having a fright and getting up to a place you can not fetch her back from (this has happened to other people before, by the way). The can literally go from not being able to fly, to flying, overnight.

Just something to be aware of,

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Back from the dead...as they say. Sorry, my schedule has been quite hectic, however, my feathered companion had quite a few hours of overtime.
Meanwhile, I have some good news. As Karyn stated, I had my doubts while having her loose on the porch, for the exact same reason she described. The bird is NOT able to freely fly as of yet, thus I am being very careful when she's out and about, always at her side.
None the less...good news is that she is now homebound, I do not have to hand feed her anymore, thus no need for traveling back and forth all day long, which tends to kind of stress her out. 
I have her indoors, in a huge dog crate. I made up an elevated "nest" for her, half way up, then cut a few tree branches, which she uses during the day, looking and jumping around. I have them at 3 different levels, so she can choose whichever one she likes. 
Better yet, she now refuses soft food. Seeds are the main diet right now, and I had nothing to do with it. 
This happened overnight, I just couldn't believe it. Eating on her own, jumping and flopping around in her 5X7 foot DOG crate, plus around the house, because I tend to let her loose when I'm home, altough I have to run around to clean the poops before my wife gets home...

She can only "fly" for a short distance, and by that I mean 10 feet or less before having to land without deploying the landing gears  Guess she's got a lot to learn. 
None the less, I have decided to keep her indoors or otherwise, until early spring, and by then she should be more than ready to take off and land smoothly. 
As I've mentioned before, I grew up on a farm, and we had a few dozen pigeons around. We opened up an attic window and they soon took over the entire real estate. They are extremely popular among farmers (like I was), partly because of their natural instinct and believe it or not, bug control. I had over 120 chickens at the farm, roaming loose all day, but when the evening feeding time came, so did the pigeons, eating alongside them. I always fed them whole corn kernels, and didn't seem to mind at all, since that was the only kind of food available at the time.

I won't bother you with any more stories, but I'd like to conclude this post by saying that I'm happier than I was a few eeks ago, when I found her, barely alive. You should see her now! Pecking at my German Shepard's nose...so funny.
I'll be away starting tommorrow, again, for a few days, but I'm leaving her behind, knowing that she's in good hands (not Allstate), but under my wife's and daughter's care.
Let me see if I can post a picture of her in my next post, after her morning routine...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, sounds good. Two things, in your travels, if you could pick her up some unsalted, raw sunflower hearts, many heath food stores and even regular food stores have them now days and offer her a teaspoon of these a day as well, it would be good. They have a high fat content and will help add the weight she needs, again, by boosting her calorie intake. These are mainly used as treats, or for weight gain, and not a regular food item, so when she starts to get above 300+ grams, you can eliminate them and just treat her once in a while with them, safflower seeds are another favorite for them as well.

Pigeons are not really perching birds, they like flat surfaces much more to sit and lay on. If you could get by Home Depot and pick her up a few tumbled cobble stone pavers, she would appreciate this as well, you could place a few in her cage. You could place a single one and even perhaps a double or tripe stack a set, as they like to be up high some times.

Please check in, from time to time, and keep us updated on her and the photo would be nice. Did you ever name her?

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Karyn, your advice is much appreciated! How about a few good sized ledge rock pieces and/or granite, simply because when my house was built, they had to blast away at the rock in order to lay the foundation. I have tons and tons of such material, out of which I managed to build a 2 foot wall along my 100 yard driveway. I live in the woods, almost on top of a mountain, on a dead end dirt road, surrounded by 3 farms, my next door neighbor's house is about 900 feet from mine. I get fresh eggs from him almost on a daily basis, at 50 cents per dozen...anyways...

I tried natural sunflower seed(hearts), right out of my neighbour's yearly crop, but she didn't quite like them for some reason. The seeds are used in conjunction with other plants and certain cereals, to feed the cattle during the winter months.

Well, as far as naming her, I am open to suggestions. I always used the term "bird" ever since I found her. Guess it's time for a real name. I'm clueless, never been good at this, couldn't even decide, nor did I have a say, in helping to name my 2 daughters...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RobertV said:


> Karyn, your advice is much appreciated! How about a few good sized ledge rock pieces and/or granite, simply because when my house was built, they had to blast away at the rock in order to lay the foundation. I have tons and tons of such material, out of which I managed to build a 2 foot wall along my 100 yard driveway. I live in the woods, almost on top of a mountain, on a dead end dirt road, surrounded by 3 farms, my next door neighbor's house is about 900 feet from mine. I get fresh eggs from him almost on a daily basis, at 50 cents per dozen...anyways...
> 
> I tried natural sunflower seed(hearts), right out of my neighbour's yearly crop, but she didn't quite like them for some reason. The seeds are used in conjunction with other plants and certain cereals, to feed the cattle during the winter months.
> 
> Well, as far as naming her, I am open to suggestions. I always used the term "bird" ever since I found her. Guess it's time for a real name. I'm clueless, never been good at this, couldn't even decide, nor did I have a say, in helping to name my 2 daughters...


Wish I could get that kind of deal on my eggs .

Bob, any smaller flat stone(s) will do, I suggested the pavers as they are easy to get and clean up well from droppings, just find some flat natural stones (must be nicely flat on top), of about the same sizing, and you should be fine.

Do still try the store bought kind, just to test, as if the seeds you tried are too fresh, she may not want to eat them, also do try the safflower seeds as well and one more thing you can try is chopped up raw Spanish peanuts. They must be from a health food store and of human grade. Do not get the kind at the pet store as peanuts when not stored right or not super fresh have quality issues we don't want out birds to have to deal with. 

Any skin/shell should be removed, so you have clean nuts only. Chop these up into small pieces about the size of a large sunflower heart, some people feed them whole, but I always have visions of a whole nut getting stuck down in their GI, so I always chop them up.

Well, something will come to you, people sometimes name their birds after the circumstances they rescued them from. One of the most memorable ones I heard here was named, if I remember right, "Almost Lunch" as the bird was soon to become another animal's lunch, when rescued. To point your mind, say you found her under a train trestle, perhaps, something like Tress or Tressa, or something about their personality. I have one bird I named Mellow, because, since a baby, she was just always so very calm and laid back about things. Still is, mostly, until she started to lay eggs, then if you go near her nest she turns into a pigeon version of Bruce Lee, wings "karate chopping" like crazy, she is not Mellow at all, when on eggs. Don't worry, something will pop into your mind.

Karyn


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Karyn, what a pretty name, Tressa! I love it! I vote for it!


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Karyn, I must admit that Tressa is quite appropriate, considering the circumstances under which she was found, more so due to the fact that she did indeed fall out of her nest located under a RR bridge. I am not sure if it was her mistake or her parents decided to rid of her, since I have noticed that anytime the adult feels or thinks there's something wrong with the young, they tend to ignore and clean up the nest by forcing the unwanted chick away from it, so that only the strong survives. Very common among many species, mammals or otherwise. Natural selection I guess...

Tressa (which is now her official name), was surely destined to become yet another casualty of mother nature, but not quite so, for obvious reasons. Yet, who is to say that this entire episode wasn't part of her future? I for one, will never know.

I just got some flat, rectangular stones, nicely shaped, about 14X10 inches is size, and almost 2 inches thick. A few more, but of different sizes, would do for now I guess. She does use the tree branches sometimes, but mostly her nest. Leave the crate's door open and she starts roaming around the house, but I need not look for her, since the Shepard is always following her. Funny, but true.
I have a few pics, but didn't come out as good as I thought. Got to try again, I may get lucky if she decides to sit still.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks for the update Bob,I was wondering about little RR Tressa...as I have seen you named her.. so nice and love reading about your caring of this bird..your a good apple! and a real nice fella in my book. 

p.s. something you might just try is giving her bath water in a kitty litter pan or something like that..it is alot of fun to watch them bath... you may have to swish your hand to get her interested.... young birds esp love their bath water and it is fun to watch... look forward to reading more about Tressa and your adventures with her.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob,


Stones or Pavers or the like help wear down their always growning Toe Nails so they stay nice and do not get overly long...and it keeps the ends dulled so they are not like 'Fish Hooks'.


Something may have happened to the parents, and she ended up out of the Nest out of desperation, or, had fledged, or fell out during a chow time exuberance, then somehow got separated from her parents and was starving.


Images of her when you get a chance...


And, some good close up images of some fresh poops also, would be good.


Oat Groats are a good one for them also - any Health Food store should have them.


Some Pigeons do in fact like Branches to perch on or to hang out on, so Branches and Stones both, are the best combo.


Good going!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Phil, I picked up some flat stones (about 5 of them), and made a nice pile, not very high, but not at ground level either. She does seem to like climbing up and just sitting there. Sometimes she jumps up on a thicker branch but not for long. At night she climbs into her "nest" I made, packed with towels and what not. She does seem quite comfortable. Right now she's roaming around the house, curious and pecking at almost everything, altough I keep a close eye on her, and if it isn't me, the Shepard takes over. 

Spirit Wings: I did wash her with a warm shower, in the sink. Feathers are not water repellent yet, and she immediately begun to shake, as body temperature dropped for some reason. I wrapped her in a towel and had her in the sun for about half hour until she came back to her senses, because she was completely out of it. Probably a mistake on my part, but I don't see why she reacted the way she did.

BTW, she may be the most traveled bird around, since she was always at my side. Estimated 'mileage" just shy of 3,800 miles in 2 weeks. Boston-New York and back. And she didn't even have to fly!
Pic coming shortly as soon as I can get a decent shot. Poops everywhere, I must go look for her now somewhere in the house. All I have to do is find the dog...


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Here she is today, on top of the dog crate

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=47169

Now here is the poop, since you asked:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=47169

She gained weight too, close to 205 grams. We're getting there. I put alot of time and effort into this, since she was really on her last leg when I got her.

BTW, she may look a bit dirty around the neck area because she was jumping head first into the soft food dish. I trimmed and cleaned most of it today, since her diet consists of seeds only, plus a bit of fruit here and there. 

One more thing: why is the poop so important? I'm a bit curious right now.

I became quite attached to her for obvious reasons. I may keep her as a pet since she seems to enjoy being around people and animals, or I may turn her loose in mid-late spring. I rather not, since there are many hawks and eagles around here. I even had one nest in my backyard, in a huge pine tree.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovely young Pigeon...Check Wings, White Primaries...


Her Eye color where a sort of Olive color now, will change to yellow or Orange as she grows up.


I bet there are few Pigeons in the entire World who have traveled that far at so young an age!


Poops & Urates are not necessarily always very decisive...but, their appearence can suggest things about the Bird's health, or, about some conditions of the Bird's system, possible infections, conditions of the Liver, Kidneys, Leucocytes, and so on.


The poop shown looks normal and healthy and looks like she's been eating 'Peas'.


Make sure no 'Post Ear Rings' or anything else small, round and potentially interesting to a Pigeon, are left out, or she could eat them in innocent error on her indoor explores, and be harmed for it.



Best wishes you two!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

She looks good, Robert. Poop looks good, too 

Poops are of value because they can be indicator of illnesses, as Phil says, and also of positive progress in a recovering bird. 'Bad' poops should generally be taken as part of the picture along with other symptoms, though. 

If you keep her through the winter, she will probably get more attached to you and 'home', so may well be best to consider a permanent resident 

John


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks guys! Guess poops are a valuable piece of information from what I can tell. But what about watery/green type poops? She had that for a while, but only while on soft food. 

However, I need not wait until spring anymore. She is part of the pack now, my dogs are treating her as such. More so, she jumped on my Shepard's back and wouldn't let go, likes a free ride I guess...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, whether she remains part of your family for ever, or is contemplated for release some day, she found a good loving Home and companions, and right in the nick of time, too.

Pigeons are wonderful Creatures to have as members of one's actual dynamic family.

Of course, you may even find another wayward 'Squeaker' or other...and...have two Winged ones in the House then...with whatever evolves from that...Lol...( 'Eggs', 'Peepers', loose Feathers in the 'dust bunnies', etc...)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well Bob, Tressa it is, a pretty appropriate name, if I don't say so myself. Most of us here disagree with Mother Nature, on the way the natural course of events should go about happening with sick and injured birds, and so we fight the good fight, as best we can.

I won't cover the ground others have, but I would mention a few things. I don't know why I didn't mention it earlier, but as I was driving home, I was thinking of Tressa and a little alarm went of for me to remind you that it's really important we monitor her weight, now that she is self-feeding. 

Bob, to put things in perspective, I just came in from my coop, where I was checking the weight of a 10 day old baby, its weight was 215 grams, you have done a great job getting her weight up to 205 grams, but I mention this to keep it on all our minds that we still have quite a way to go before I will feel good about her weight.

We have to think of her as she is, a bird whose development was throw way off because of circumstances and we have to make up the lost ground the best we can for her. When they start feeding on their own, when raised by their parents, as she has just started to do, their father would still be supplementing their self-feeding with a number of meals a day, depending on how badly they badgered him to be feed (the mother in nature has stopped feeding them long ago). I am going to suggest that you continue to supplement her self-feeding, as her father would, to continue to get the weight on her. While you are away, perhaps your wife could fill in for you.

Part of the reaction she displayed when she was bathed, I believe, was from the lack of insulating body weight, and it didn't take much in the way of cooling, to have an unwanted effect on her. By the way, if she does bathe on her own, you can take a blow dryer and blow dry her dry. Just make sure it is set to medium heat and medium blow-force and keep the blow dryer moving so too much heat does not build up in one spot. You can test heat and distance on the back of your hand to judge what feels nicely warm, and not too hot.

Lastly, I think she is just going to be too human bonded to make a good candidate to be released to the wild, so you just may have a new member of the family .

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Karyn, thanks for the kind words! Here is another pic of her, not that good but you get the idea.
I still hand feed her in between ".pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17127&stc=1&d=1285806956[/IMG]meals", so that isn't a problem. Weight gain is probably a top priority right now.
They are very smart creatures, regardless what others may think. Not sure why, but she does remind me of a close family member which passed away some time ago. I have never felt so sorry for a bird in my entire life. Two sleepless nights later and here we are today. I'm totally happy with what I did, no regrets.

That is her home right now(when not roaming around the house). You may be able to notice her "nest" on the left and also the flat rocks I gathered for her, which she loves to sit on. Therefore, no more free rides, tommorrow she'll be all by herself. No more bouncing around, no more stop and go. Guess she finally has settled into her new home.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, Tressa is a lovely little bird and a good looking little dropping as well.

I mentioned what I did because I do not want any backsliding with her, where, because she is eating, we relax a bit and think things are going along fine, but they are not eating near the amount they should on their own, so without continued support, they start to shed the hard won weight they have put on. In the next little while, I wouldn't mind seeing her work her way over 300 grams.

You would not be the first person, new to pigeons, who was quite surprised how quickly and deeply they've worked their way into your heart.

Bless you for your efforts for Tressa,

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Hello folks! Been away for a few days, however, Tressa is doing quite well, gaining weight and flopping around the house right now. She can fly, but not very far. She seems very happy and at home in her new cage for some reason. Dogs love her, and she loves riding on my german shepard's back all around the house and sometimes outside. The dog doesn't seem to mind, she's actually protecting her. 
I had a picture of her in one of my previous posts, but somehow it got "lost" since I cannot find it anymore, even in my profile panel. More so, for some reason, I can't upload anything anymore, and I do have plenty of free space. 
Otherwise, everything is OK. I must thank you again for all the help and advice you've given me. I really apreciate it, and so does Tressa. 
It isn't the end of the story, but nothing really changed. Just a follow-up, as they say.

Karyn, I'm not new to pigeons, we had a few dozen of them in the past, when I was a kid. We raised and cared for them on our farm, in my country of origin. They were helpful to us and in turn, we provided them with shelter and food year round. 
But somehow, this little bird had a very profound (sp?) effect on me, for some reason. Not sure why, but I had to take her regardless of circumstances. 
I've been around as they say, grew to be quite immune to most incidents and accidents that happen on the railroad (such as human or animal strikes), however, Tressa managed to work her way into my heart and as of now, she's part of the gang.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Have read your thread, RobertV, and what a wonderful rescue story about Tressa (I agree, great name!).

I have a feeling that Tressa is too imprinted on humans now to be released. Be careful if she is outside without containment...disaster could strike in a second, whether from a predator of some kind, or something else and her doggie protector may not be able to help. 

You have done a terrific job with her! Tressa is a beautiful pigeon!

I don't remember reading how your wife and daughter(s?) reaction(s) to Tressa and she to them.

BTW, there is a member who makes and sells pigeon diapers. My MR. Squeaks was one of the original "testers" of the PGWear by Boni. These "suits" are terrific and made personally for each pigeon so they will always fit.

Here is her website: www.birdwearonline.com

Sending all our best to the lovely Tressa and look forward to your future posts about her adventures!

Sending Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and MR. Squeaks/Dom/Gimie/WoeBeGone/Rae Charles


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr. Squeaks,
Thanks for the kind words! But not to worry, she's a family pet as of now for as long as she's alive. She won't be able to survive on her own if released, and that's the truth, regardless of her natural instincts and so on..

I am being careful when she's outside, dog or not, always under my supervision. I have plenty of hawgs, eagles and other predatory birds around here. Better yet, a bald Eagle is nesting in one of my trees, some 75 yards away. He's awesome, estimated around 6 foot wingspan. A baby pigeon is no match for this beautiful bird.

My wife and daughters are quite intrigued and curious, maybe as a cat would be, however, they feed her, clean the cage and so on when I'm on the road. In other words, she belongs here, now being part of the "pack"....

Pigeon diapers? I never knew shuch things even existed! Thanks for sharing, right now I'm quite speechless, to say the least..I will take a look at their products.

The name Tressa was Karyn's suggestion. I couldn't have found a better name to tell you the truth...

Karyn and Phil are like pigeon scientists if you ask me. Their advice and guidance were very helpful to me and Tressa, and for that we are grateful!
Thanks for your kind words once again.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Robert,

I just have to jump in here and say how much I've enjoyed watching your thread about Tressa. I'm so pleased she's fitted in well and is now a true member of the family.
I'd love to see a picture one day of her riding on your Shepherd's back. 

ps,

We have just got back from a family holiday to New York and I have to say I just fell in love with your trains ! Well the double decker one we travelled on anyway. Don't get those over here, they were so cool. 

Look forward to more news on Tressa when you can,

Janet


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I just read your thread, Robert you are a wonderful person, and the baby is so lucky that found a nice daddy!!! they are so lovely and probably later on you can make a loft or aviary and find a mate for him, even another rescue bird, we always have many rescue birds that need a permanent home. Welcome to our club!! that is how we ended up in love with all these creatures!!! a big hug for you and your family Robert and of course many kisses to tressa.

Ivette


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Janet,

Thank You for the kind words! One thing though: Amtrak uses "sleepers" and "double deckers" on long distance runs. I am strictly a NorthEast Corridor person, traveling between Boston - New Haven CT - New York Penn Station almost exclusively(sp?). I'm based in CT, therefore Crew change almost always takes place in New Haven, with some exceptions.
Next time you decide to travel by rail, I strongly suggest the Acela Express, which runs between Washington, DC and Boston, MA. It is a High speed train and you will be impressed and perhaps amazed about how smooth the setup runs and feels at 150 MPH. 

I have a picture of her riding one of my dogs, not the Shepard, but still a pretty good shot.

Ivette, I suppose she would like some company, altough I'm not quite sure what to make of it right now, since she's so attached to the dogs and not easily spooked by them or other people. I would like to see some kind of "wild attitude" on her part, but I guess that's out of the question. She became a permanent resident anyways, and part of our family as well. As I've said, I do not think she could survive in the wild on her own, thus she's stuck here....I wish all and every homeless animal/bird could have a second chance, like she did. The dog you see was rescued from a shelter, turned out to be the most gentle creature and wonderful companion that one could ask for. He is now 10 years old and going strong, despite his appearance. Always submissive and kind. Guess the bird likes him better, since he's not as hyper as the other 2 dogs, like the Shepard or the Doberman that we have here. This guy's a mutt, but don't judge him at face value. No one gets within 100 yards of the house without being *****ed at!....by them, that is. They formed and have a strong pack ever since they were young. BTW, we always had 3-4 dogs since I can remember, thus every one of us (wife and daughters) are very comfortable and used to more than one soul anyways, because, in the end, that's what it boils down to. Each and every God's given creature has their unique character, personality and habits. For that matter, so are we, humans. But we are a step ahead. Only thing that separates us from them is the lack of communication, since they will only use body language in order to make themselves understood....somewhat. Only experienced people can really "read" between the lines, and this is valid for anyone and everyone who had or has any kind of pet friends, dogs, cats, birds and so on..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, thanks for checking in with an update on your Tressa and great photos, by the the way. Well the universe has sent you Treesa for reasons that may never be known and she seems to have snuck around your immune wall, I do think you will bring joy into one another's lives in the years to come.

Bob, looking at her, is strong reminder to me, to ask you to please be very careful with her outdoor excursions. Although, she is not a strong flier inside, her wings are fully developed and all it would take is a gust of wind, and her holding her wings open, that may lead to heart break. She would be almost like a kite, if she extends her wings, and the wind would take her aloft. Outside of that, as mentioned before, they go to not flying well one day, to pretty decent flight overnight, if you combined wind and this fact, she could be soon in dire straights and it can happen very quickly.

She looks good and glad steady progress is being made.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robert!


Very nice to begin my day today reading your up-date.


I think in your situation, Tressa has simply, gracefully, been accepted and accepting of the actual family and 'flock' in effect which is present - you, of course...your wife and children, and, the Dogs.


Far as she is concerned, all the elements are present and complete.




If Tressa did accidentally fly up or off a ways, it could indeed be awkward.


One thing which happens, is their first time doing that, changes their consciousness somewhat, and they 'Hear the Call' of the Wild, one might say.


This does not mean they would per-se keep going, but, it may mean that they have a conflict or confusion then about what to do.


Normally, in Nature, they do fly quite a bit, covering distances, flying for sheer exhuberance and fun, and so on, where, even if they in their mind, accept a people-family condition "as" their 'flock', they can still be conflicted about the missing part - the flying, and, be reluctant to come back down or come back all the way.


If she comes when called presently, this may continue under normal circumstances, but, the response to being called could also suffer in the conflict if she were being called to come down from a neighbor's roof or high Tree or other, where, she is feeling the urge to have that sort of autonomy or option as part of her ways-of-things, and or is not satisfied yet with sounding the opportunity for more flying.





Say, I had been thinking anyway - next April I may be having to travel to Florida, to Tampa I think it is.

I really do not enjoy Airline travel anymore, and, it would of course be a long drive in a Car, so, I had been brooding on maybe taking a Train ( from Las Vegas, Nevada ).


Any tips on electing a particular route or option which would be fastest and most fun?

I would have some heavy Baggage also, heavy and bulky.


I took a Train from Rollins Wyoming to Oakland California in 1972, and spent the whole time standing between Cars with the upper half of the large Door latched open, just enjoying the Air and scenery.

That was a wonderful experience.

Conductors kept telling me I could not DO that, and closing the Door top...finally, not half way into the first day, they gave up and would stand there with me talking and having a cigarette break, enjoying the breezes blowing in with the upper door half open.


Lol...


Took like 26 hours I think, cause of some rail problems here and there they had to go slow.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robert,


Anyway, just to be sure I was clear in regard to Tressa being outside where she could fly or take off -


Too dangerous in many ways.


She could also fly off a few blocks having exuberant fun, feeling entirely absorbed by her experience, see a Dog in someone's back yard, decide to land on the Dog's Back, since in her mind, Dogs are friendly and accepting, and, really get into some trouble..!


Let alone all the rest.


So, in short, I do not think she should be exposed to those very probable risks of misadventure, which an accidental 'release' would include.


Best wishes!


Phi
Las Vegas


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

First off...
Karyn, I don'y know what to believe or think about her, only perhaps that she was someone close to me in the previous life. None the less, rest assured she won't be fliyng too far or too high, as I have trimmed her wing feathers the other day, something that I used to do in my younger years with adult birds, so that she won't take off on me. Works pretty goood, does not hurt them at all, but forces the bird to hang around regardless of age/gender or where it was brought up. 
Besides, I always keep an eye on them when venturing outdoos, more so because the Eagle seems quite hungry right now, and I hate to tell you that I feed him as well, but I will refrain from telling you what kind of food he or she gets from me.

One thing is for sure. For as long as Tressa is alive, she's stuck with us. I just don't have the heart to turn her loose anyways. It's like opening the backyard gate when my dogs are out. Anything can happen.

Phil,you have been of great help, just as Karyn was. Rest assured, she'll aways be with us. 

As I've mentioned above, wing feathers are clipped, and it is not considered a cruelty far as I know. Bird is homebound for a while, or for an extended period of time. It's the "owner's" decision, but it is the best way of keeping an adult pigeon(or bird, for that matter) from taking off on you. 

As far as your train trip is concerned, I need a few more details, perhaps send me a PM. Like initial and final destination points, lenght of stay, estimated departure date and so on. I'll do my best to accomodate you and your Family(if necessary) on any route that suits you best. Nevada is and has always been a bit "out of the way" for Amtrak, but as of lately, they caught up with it. Baseline is your final destination. LA, Miami, Memphis, Boston or otherwise, I can always be of help. Just say the word, let me know. I'm still around, 2 days a week, but seems like better than nothing.

BTW...forgot to ask. How old do pigeons grow to be until they pass away? I really don't have a clue.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RobertV said:


> BTW...forgot to ask. How old do pigeons grow to be until they pass away? I really don't have a clue.


Bob, pigeons can live to be 15-20 years old, with good care, with instances of birds even older than that, so she will hopefully be around for a good time to come. With the rest, its like anything where one has some background experience and then encounters situations where thing may be fine, but because ones knows of instances in kind, where bad things have happened and ensuing heart break, alarm bells start to go off, glad you will be on top of this.

Almost forgot, if at any point in the years to come her eating habits change, her droppings suddenly look strange, she is not as active, she seems "off", or sits quite and a little fluffed up, breathing sounds rattly, please take these as signs she is most likely ill and either check in here right away, or do a little planning in advance and look for a good avian vet in your area, so you prepared, in advance, for any eventualities. When they do get ill, and you start to notice some of the signs I mentioned, most times, by their nature, birds conceal illness as long as they can and by the time we notice things, they have been ill for a period of time and usually need help ASAP.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ho Robery,



Oh!

Well, had no idea you had trimmed her Primaries a little.


By golly, that might just be the ticket for out-doors supervised forays, with no worries of her taking off.


Of course she could still run pretty fast if she were startled! So...never under-estimate how good a 'runner' a Pigeon can be!


Oldest recorded Pigeon I think, was right around 40 years.


This is exceptional, and, usually, anywhere into the late teens is considered pretty old.


I myself have a few non-release-ables who have been with me a long time now, and, who will be with me till I or they depart.


Some are very friendly and loving, others, regard me as merely a sort of incidental Creature who happens to live here too, who is of no special account.


Lol...


I sleep in the Aviary portion of my building, and when I wake up in the morning, usually there are one two or even five or six Pigeons sleeping next to me or laying down sleeping on my ankle, hip, knee and shoulder.


Oddly, some of these are WILD pre-release ones, who for seeing some of the non-release-ables doing it, figure they will do it also.

When I lift my head up to take the survey, the WILD ones fly off instantly, and, the non-release-ables just return a look or remain sleeping...and I have to get out of bed gingerly to as not to disturb them.


I learned to sleep staying in a same position, or, if I wish to roll over or turn, I long ago learned to do it very circumspectfully and sensitively, since some of these Birds are quite small Doves nestling against my ribs or whatever.


It's a wacky Life...




Phil
Las Vegas



I will PM you.

Thanks!


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

My God Karyn! She can easily outlive any dog and most cats if that's the case. 15-20 years seems a looooong time. None of my dogs lived past age 14, and none of the cats I had grew to be older than 19 or so. Guess she'll be around for a while if not mistaking.
And trust me, I can tell when an animal does not feel well, simply by knowing their habits, posture, needs and so on...
Guess that is also valid for birds, more or less. A dog may be able to somehow let me know that something is wrong just by refusing a meal, walking around as if he/she were lost and so on...I did learn the hard way. It is extremely hard and painful when they go to Heaven, however, everyone of us will have to deal with this situation at one time or another. It is very hard and rough for those who are left behind, however, their soul lives on regardless...

On a happier note, I must admit that I kind of brought her back to life somewhat, and for that I must credit this forum, especially Karyn and Phil, who proved to be a huge asset. 

Phil, I did trim her primaries, just to be on the safe side. I don't need any more surprises after yesterday, and Karyn has an idea of what I'm talking about. Nothing to do with the pigeon, dogs, home or otherwise. Just things that happen on the railroad.

How can you sleep with birds between your legs and ribs without hurting some of them? I do the same with my dogs, but we're talking 110 lbs beast versus a 300 gram feathered creature....


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Follow-up from yesterday: she's not depending on me or wife to feed her soft food anymore. Tressa became quite spoiled (guess why!), and she is enjoying herself by pecking at good quality seeds and food that shows up in her dish. More so, she's roaming around the house, doing whatever she likes to do, however, we must be careful walking around, to avoid stepping on her, because she has the tendency to follow anything and everything that moves around, dogs included. 
None the less, she comes back to "life" as soon as she hears my voice, and most of the time I get home well past midnight, sometimes not at all for a day or two. 
Question: she seems to be shedding tail feathers for some reason, perhaps 2-3 left, but I've noticed new ones starting to grow. I would compare it to a young kid loosing first set of teeth. Am I correct? I hope so.

This forum is full of info, plenty of folks looking for advice or guidance, yet I can only sit here and read. I wish I could contribute, but I'm nowhere near of being an expert. I feel bad not being able to help others in need, however, I'd rather listen and learn, instead of trying to play smart. I truly wish I could help...maybe one day I would, based on hands-on experiences, but until then, not much I can do.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robert,


Young adults or almost adult Pigeons will sometimes start dropping original Feathers which were grown during periods of poor nutrition, and, replace them with new Feathers once good nutrition is available.


Indoor 'family' Pigeons - make sure to insist she never land on top of open Doors ( it is too easy for someone to close the passage Door with a Bird perched on it for not noticing the Bird perched on it, with possibly terrible consequences to the Bird).


Routine Househol cleaning products must be reviewed or abandonded or used only wen the Bird is not in the House...same with latex Paint if re-painting Walls, or the components of these when in the air - even if we do not mind it - can sicken or kill a Bird.

Same with inadvertently over heating 'teflon' Pans and possibly other non-stick cookware.

Stoves in general need to be regarded carefully, as with anything else 'hot' which a Bird could land on.


Birds laying down or perching on me as I sleep -

This evolved long ago, and my Body somehow knows they are 'there', and I gradually learned to sleep without hardly moving, and if I wish to turn over, I do so very circumspectfully and slowly.

A 'Cover' Sheet works well to keep the basic covers tidy...Lol...


What seemed so curious to me, were the original Birds or Pigeons who would do this, were pre-release post convelecent ones who were very wild, and who otherwise would not let me get very near them, yet, they would very sort of secretely end up perching on my knee or ankle or hip once I was sleeping or once they thought I was asleep, even in Summer when it was hot in here.


Others, would elect to do it who were very friendly and sociable, sleeping on the Pillow next to my head.


When a Bird is healthy and all is well, they really sleep very little, and sleep lightly at that.


I am not recommending the practice, just, I have only so much room here, and, originally, my Living Quarters or Appartment was where the convelesent or pre-release Birds would be, then, eventually, I made it more spartan, eleminating everything but fixtures or amenities for them, and it is an Aviary with merely a few amenities for me.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Actually, Robert, Phil, being a "pigeon whisperer," lives *with* his birds rather than the birds living "with" him!! ROFL 

Have no fear, many of us are or were, in the same boat as you. When I found MR. Squeaks, I didn't know a thing about taking care of pigeons! Over the years and watching my guys, ones learns and learns and continues to learn!

Each situation can be different and reading about different environments and situations with people and their "pet" pigeons, is a never ending source of delight. 

Any advice or "enlightenment" I might have to offer comes from my personal experiences with my birds and reading about others on the site. 

All I have to say is...ENJOY...ENJOY...ENJOY!!

We will certainly be looking forward to Tressa's latest adventures...not all pigeons are fortunate enough to have their own "pack"....of doggies!!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and MR. Squeaks/Dom/Gimie/WoeBeGone/Rae Charles


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, thanks a lot for going over some of the indoor cautions with Bob, I got focused on the outdoors and there are plenty of things to be aware of indoors as well. Bob, one other thing I will add is that if you have a home office and un-staple or staple things there, be careful with errant staples, or any other fine little wire things or other tiny do-dads, as if they ingest a staple (or other objects), it will not be good and as they like to put their mouth on everything and it's natural for them to want to ingest hard, small objects to help with seed digestion. 

On that subject, if you order Tressa in a bag of good quality grit, it will do two things one give her the right thing she needs to aid digestion and while won't eliminate her maybe swallowing something she shouldn't, it will fill her need for small hard objects to swallow for seed grinding. Here is a link to Jedd's, one of the pigeon supply stores some of us use, for a good quality grit. You will put a tablespoon full or so in a separate dish beside her food and water dishes and she will take what she feels she needs.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-1059/GRIT-WITH-REDSTONE-2.5kg/Detail.bok

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr. Squeaks, I had a feeling about Phil. Pigeons living with him and kind of ruling the outcome .
None the less, I was not aware about paint "fumes" being considered harmful, nor was I up to date as far as routine household cleaning products were concerned. Let alone a hot stove...
None the less, I own my home and property (roughly 2 acres), but I can't just picture myself as being surrounded or overwhelmed by pigeons, for the most part. Perhaps because I do not know how to handle more than a pair of birds at any given time. 

Phil seems to have found the answers for any kind of questions that otherwise could be disregarded or dismissed by others. He is a great asset to this site, and to any pigeon lover, myself included! Thanks Phil! Just be careful, try not to roll over too much...

More so, Karyn has proven herself to be of great help as well. Phil covered some specific areas, and Karyn took care of the remaining aspects. I must thank both of them, once again!
Not to mention a few other Members which provided me and Tressa with quite a few valuable pieces of information.

All of you had and have a profound effect on her life, and I must thank you on her behalf. She speaks her own language, one that we're not yet familiar with, however, sometimes we cross paths, which makes us alike for a second or so...

Karyn, I am being extra cautious when she's out and about. That shouldn't be an issue. Thing is, what else should I do in order for her to feel "at home"? 

Being inside a Locomotive's cab is one thing, but for the past week, she's been home surrounded by 3 dogs and inside a huge crate, plus 2 strangers (wife and daughter).  watching and caring for her while I'm away.

One thing is for sure: she does peck at anything and everything found on the floor, since she can only fly for about 10 feet before being forced to employ an emergency-type landing, usually somewhere in the kitchen. After which she's OK, acting like nothing happened.
However, she loves her current setup, not just the cage, but also the branches and pieces of ledge rock that are quite everywhere now...

Besides, everyone here loves her. I wonder what would have happened to her 3 weeks ago, after she fell out of her nest, without a helping hand.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Kudos to all involved in this very, very happy ending! Well done! Bless you, Robert, and your family for taking in this pigeon, and many thanks to our members for helping to see that all was well. Tressa, you are one very lucky little bird! Robert .. my Traveler lived to be 21, and I have several that are in the 12-18 year old range. Two of them are actually sitting on eggs again .. she is 18 and he is 12 .. nothing's happening with the eggs (not developing embryos), but they don't realize that and are happy.

Continued happiness and good luck to you, your family, and Tressa.

Terry


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Terry,

Thanks for the kind and encouraging words! I am now commited to Tressa , perhaps for the rest of her natural life, God willing...
I must admit that, without the valuable input I recieved from Phil, Karyn and a few other folks (sorry for not being able to recall who), I would have given Tressa a 50/50 chance of survival. Mind you, she was almost dead when I "adopted" her, yet everything worked out quite well. 
2 weeks riding the high-speed train, and another week in and out of the car...kind of sad start, but as you've mentioned, happy "ending"...but it isn't over. All I know is that I have done everything in my power to save her from certain death. Perhaps the end result is the real Tressa! Thanks so much!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robert,



Oh yeah, she'd have perished really about any time there had you not gone back for her.


I think she is also very fortunate to have gotten to ride along with you on those various trips in the Locomotive Cabin!

That is so cool...and unique.


I hope that may continue now and then, since I know she would love it.


So anyway, far as her being a House-Bird with people and all, yeahh, make sure there is nothing laying around which she could peck in inocence that could harm here...'Post Ear-Rings', or anything small and round-ish.


Toilet Bowls should have the Seat "Down" always...( well, unless occupied ).


Stoves when Cooking or when still hot from Cooking or Roasting and so on, can be a hazard to them if they land on it.


No Chocolate or Avacado to be offered her, as those can be lethal to Birds.


Light Scotch and Water for Holidays or other is fine...many Pigeons like Scotch or good Bourbon and plain Water ( but only in moderation, and with supervision, of course). They have about the same tolerance as an average non drinker person far as mL to Kilo for ethyl Alcohol.


Baths are best provided on the floor, on a Towel...with a two or three inch deep Pan or Tray or something, and cool Water.

She is of an age now where any time now, she will decide she is interesting in Bathing.


So, just set out a Pan or Casarole Dish or other, on a Towel, on the Floor, cool Water, splash-wiggle your fingers in it where she can see you doing it, and, if she is interested she will come over and work her way into it and start Bathing.


You can struesel/dribble Water onto her if she likes, also...where, likely, she will raise up a Wing for the Water to roll onto the inside of her Wing and on from there.


Have fun!



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, I see Phil, as usual, has covered most things that would pop into my mind. Just a couple of areas I would touch on once again, such as nonstick cooking utensils. When PTFE (Teflon) coated products are used at high heat they give off an odorless/colorless gas that is quite deadly in small amounts to all indoor birds, so when you are cooking with these kind of utensils, please have Tressa out of the kitchen, also true with any other kind of cooking/baking that produces smoke, she should not be in a smokey situation. The other, already mentioned, is because she does spend a lot of time on the ground kind of always being very aware of her location, as they do have a way of getting underfoot. Also, when getting up from the couch or chair, to reach for something and plopping back down, of getting in the habit of having a look that she has not jumped onto where someone was just sitting so she is not sat upon, they are kind of quick this way as well.

Most of the rest is common sense and for her to get to know the lay of the land and to develop a routine, I am sure she will be a bright spot in your life everyday.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The 'Couch thing' definitely...or Overstuffed Chair also...Bed-side similarly...any kind of Chair even...

When you go to sit down, you gotta make sure there is not a Bird laying there.


Ceiling Light Fixtures which have enough room for a Bird to get into them or to perch on or in them, usually no big deal, but, depending on how the Light Bulb or Bulbs are arranged, if a wet poop is made onto a hot Light Bulb, the Bulb can sort of explode in it's way, startling everyone and making a bunch of very thin glass pieces to clean up.


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

OK folks. Been away for 2 weeks, tried to post via cellphone but guess I have alot to learn when it comes to that, simply because I upgraded to a Motorola Blur a week ago, yet the only thing I am familiar with is how to power it on or off. 

Anyways, Tressa is doing very well, my Wife and Daughter took care of her while I was gone. Yet, as soon as she heard my voice she became restless. Perhaps a sign of joy. 
In any case, whenever someone is home, Tressa is roaming around the house, looking for a resting dog to sit on, and perhaps hitch a ride somewhere indoors. And she does...most of the time. 
I guess she spent more time outside of her huge crate than actually living in it. Wife and Daughter are on alert while she's roaming around, so that she won't do something stupid or worse, have someone step or sit on her while sleeping in my chair. Which she loves! 
Poops are another story, she does relieve herself very often for about 10 minutes after being set free, here and there, but we tend to keep up with her. After that, all quiet. She is trying to "fly" but can't steer since her tail feathers are just beginning to grow, after she lost all of the original ones. Manages a 15 foot flyover, but she misses her runway at times. Lots to learn. 
As I've said, just got home from Wilmington, yet I'll be up for a while, more so because I'll be off till Thursday. I'll be taking a couple more shots in the morning.
I only wanted to let you folks know that I'm still around. And so is she. Thanks to you!
Back shortly.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Welcome back Bob, glad to hear all is well and went well while you where gone. Glad you have a support team for Tressa to help in your absences and will wait for the latest pics of her.

Karyn


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Glad you're back and I'll bet Tressa is, too!


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Well she is happy. Can't keep her off my shoulder. I had nothing to do with that. I try to discourage her mostly because she'll pecking at my nose which makes me sneeze big time. She weighs a tad over 300 grams. She was below 100 when I found her. Lots of work and dedication on everyone's part, made a huge impact on her. I never thought I could become so attached to a bird...but guess she is the one who is now happy and cozy...need I say more? Btw...loves walking over keyboard too bad she can't type....yet! Altough she likes pooping on it!

EDIT: I can't believe that I was able to use cellphone to compose and post the above message! Guess I'm making some kind of a progress...altough I'm still a young bird by your standards.


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

I have read most of the posts within this forum, altough still have a ways to go. But that's all I can do...read. I cannot and will not offer any kind of advice or suggestions, despite my willingness (sp?) to do so. I did have a few dozen pigeons while I grew up, but they were an integral part of our farm. We provided them with food (corn or wheat kernels), and in turn, they were protecting most of our crops, which were our main source of food. It worked both ways, everyone was happy. Nothing more, nothing less. Strictly business, as they say. 
But now, things have changed. Not sure why or what really happened here, but I came to realize that every single living creature has their own character and personality, regardless of species. And most of them are much smarter and intelligent than we could ever imagine. 
Sorry, had to make my point. I wish I could help, but really can't do so. No experience with pigeons other than the above mentioned facts.


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Sorry folks yet I have another question. Aside me building an outdoor cage/shelter for her after the winter is over,is there a place where I could just buy it instead of me having to build it? I'm not lazy. Just not enough free time until June of next yr...shorthanded. thanks!


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## Birdbabe (Jan 24, 2006)

Hi Robert, just popped in to read your updates. Glad Tressa is doing so well, shes one spioled girl. Thank you for your dedication to her. As for the aviary....sorry, I let the men hanndle that sort of thing. Hee Hee


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

RobertV said:


> But now, things have changed. Not sure why or what really happened here, but I came to realize that every single living creature has their own character and personality, regardless of species. And most of them are much smarter and intelligent than we could ever imagine.




Yes...


In a manner of speaking, I think all Souls are the same size, have the same volume of content and depth and mystery, and in fact have many qualitative things in common, which permit possibilities of benificient interactions and communications or gestures, regardless of the form assumed in Life by the Creature/Organism.




Post some new images or her when you get a chance?



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Well, construction has begun, based on a project I had in mind. Will end up being over 8 feet long, 5 feet high and about 4 or more feet wide. I'm talking about the actual enclosure. That is most important for now. I'm going to build it in stages, meaning few sub-sections. I have started working on the rear unit. It should be completed by April I guess....sooner if I can find a few more days off. 
I live in the woods, plenty of open space and room for almost anything. Guess I'll be mounting the finished product on the rear patio, which is about 60 feet long. 
Can't turn her loose or even have her walking around the patio unsupervised. Hawks and eagles are everywhere. One eagle even found a home in a huge tree about 30 feet away from the house. Beautiful bird but no need for an easy meal...her young hatch almost at the same time, and seem to be the size of an adult pigeon after a few days.

I got one more pic of her today riding my mutt, while he was having dinner. Quite funny how she clamps onto their fur and tags along. Guess she's part of the pack now. Dogs have never rejected or chased her. One is even looking out for her. If I can't find Tressa, all I need to do is call the Shepard and she will point me in the right direction. 
Some new pics coming up, not sure how much space I have left.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, if you want to leave her out unattended, a good choice for enclosure material would be expanded metal. It comes in 4'x8' sheets and the 1/4 inch size would be best. We used some in our coop and it's sturdier than the wire mesh we were using before and a little more attractive, IMHO, but of course it does cost more. Since it was carbon steel, we had to paint it, we painted it black, and it pretty well disappears into the background and lets in a lot of sunlight. If you do go with the the galvanized wire cloth, make sure the size you use is the 1/4 inch size in this as well, as nothing can reach in through this small a size, and keeps out mice as well that may want to try and get in at night and leave behind droppings that can make a pigeon ill with a number of infections.

Glad to hear she broke through the 300 gram level, I know I myself use this a a kind of marker where I start to be less worried about a bird's weight and health, she should continue to work her way up a bit more yet. I think fortune smiled on you both.

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Karyn, that's exactly what I had in mind, as opposed to galvanized steel mesh or other similar products. Yes, she will be living outdoors comes spring, but confined to her own space, which is so large and spacious, my dogs could use it as well. At 8 feet long, I can also fit inside, considering that I'm 6'3" tall. I won't be done with it for a while, taking my time to do it the right way. I never liked half @** jobs and never will. 
She's always out and about the house, mostly around her cage and kitchen area. Can't really fly far, maybe 20 feet at the most. All of her tail feathers are gone, growing new ones now. Guess she can't steer right or left without them. 
She even took a bath yesterday, on her own. It is warm in the house, got fire going, so that isn't an issue. She loves it anyways...

Hang on, let me resize some pics so you can see the difference.

Bob


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Here we go, one more picture taken today around lunchtime:


That's Jack, my 11 year old mutt, who seems happy to have found someone to scratch his back. Quite funny if you asked me.
Tressa having fun, I guess...free ride around the house.

More to follow.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob,



If you are going to make an enclose for her, make it eight or ten feet high, not five.


A ) You need to be able to walk around in it...( for various reasons, or at various times, what if she is hurt or sick and in the far corner? Cleaning, etc... )

&

B ) She needs height to fly to and perch in.


Put some shelves and simple Branches up there too of course, so she has things to roost on.



Never make any sort of enclose for a Bird which is less than eight feet high inside, ten or twelve feet high is better even.


Convelecent Cage is one thing, and by design and purpose, those need to be small, even if kept as high as practical.


So, if you can not build something truely huge, at least definitely do make it as high as possible inside anyway, regardless.



In Nature, she would be roosting somewhere up "high" at night or at other times, 20, 30, 50 feet up, and if prevented from doing so, it will chafe and bother her wisdom and instincts.


I have 12 foot ceilings in here, and really, those are too low or my liking, far as having Birds in here.



But, oh well...once I move, I will have Ceilings of fourteen feet or better if I have my druthers.



Phil
Lv


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks Phil! I really had no idea about how much space they really need. Thus, I have something else in mind. I'm going to empy and clean my backyard shed, which is like a little condo. 18 feet in lenght, 12 feet high and even has 2 separate rooms. More so, It is also heated (3 electric baseboards) and has 3 or 4 light fixtures. Plus 6 single pane windows and double screened swung out doors. 
Heck, a person could live there quite comfortably. 
None the less, I need to make a few changes before she takes over the thing...
Was thinking about 2 large skylights, in order to provide more ambient light, sunshine and so on. Not only that it is fully insulated, I even ran and installed a cable TV coax lead 2 years ago. It used to be my workshop and getaway, but not so lately. Therefore Tressa will be the most likely candidate. No way she can "escape" or venture outdoors. I built this thing like a fortress about 8 years ago. One ceiling is at 8 feet, divided by another at 4 feet, both rooms. I cannot ask for a better shelter. I may end up watching football with her on Monday nights! 
Seriously, it is a sturdy and very solid "building" if I can call it that....a thorough powerwash and cleaning job should do the trick. Besides, plenty of space for suspended branches, lumber and many more amenities as required. Only thing missing would be a mate!

EDIT: guess she can spend the winter in her new home, but not as of yet. Next year for sure, but right now she still needs some TLC. She'll be calling it her home comes spring. By then I should be done with interior "details". 
BTW...not even a pinhole for a mouse to be able to find its way in. Exterior walls made out of treated lumber. Floor is above ground, resting on quite a few 8X8 studs. I may just move my old TV in there...who knows, better safe than sorry...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bob, 


Sounds pretty good!


But, bear this in mind also - Pigeons are about on par with people as far as their emotional need to be with others, to mingle, check in, interact, be involved with others...they are 'Action Birds', even as Parrots are, where solitude unless elected volitionally and when wanted, is not good if imposed...it is then an exile condition, in fact.

Isolation would be bad for her, same as it would for a person, Dog, or Horse.


Normally they join a Flock, have friends, travel however modest or great of distances by day, forage and graze, goof around, roost with pals come Nightfall...and, eventually of course, elect a Mate, build a Nest, make Babys ( but not till like two or three years of age far as in the Wild ) 


So, even if she may be out there sometimes, for short periods, it would not be good at all for her to be alone.

Solving that aspect by acquiring other Birds/Pigeons, then becomes it's own fairly serious and demanding involvement and management in many ways.

If not spending time with her pretty well daily, or often anyway, she will grow apart and prefer to be distal or not involved.


She is like a young teenager now, anxious for experience, stimulation, learning, socializing and so on.


I know you love her very much, but, in some ways, since she almost certainly is still a releaseable Bird if allowed to spend time with Wild pre-release adults ( even with the domestic habits that have begun which could be shucked for new attunes,) she would benifit from the opportunity to be re-socialized to othert adult Pigeons, and, if so, I am pretty confident she would become attuned to their modes and agreements and ways, avoid Dogs ( or Cats ) and people, once having got to be among her peers and elders...and be release-able.


If there are any rehabbers who could offer the amenity of a pre-release Aviary for her to spend a few weeks or months, I am confident she could then be released to a Flock, and do just fine, ideally of course, in an area which does not have Hawks and so on laying in wait.


I have raised many Yellow Down infants, and many youngsters and juveniles ( have five at the moment ), and, once I back off, and they get to be with their wild pre-release bretherin for a few weeks, they get VERY Wild and inependant and will not let me get near them, even though they had been cuddle-bugs and Lap Bunnies and so on while growing up.


That 'Window' anyway, is still open, if you wanted to consider it..!


It would just have to be done 'right'.



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, Phil has made a very good post, touching on and making much the same points I would make, that while I am sure that you would turn the shed into a safe palace for her, she would be very lonely living there in exile from your whole family, including your dog. They really are such social creatures they need lots of interaction, if not with their own kind, then with their new family. You may be best building something smaller and protective where she could spend time on your patio during the day sometimes and still live inside, much as she has been doing, with her regular routine. 

Many people get a large rabbit cage or even a parrot cage to keep them safely confined when needed inside, such as when guests are over, where they need a break and need to they are locked up and safe, or for other reasons as well. If you at some point decide you would like to find her a mate of her own kind or even adopt a few more birds from our adoption section, then the shed sounds like it would make a good coop.

As Phil mentions, under most circumstances a bird like her may still have a chance for release, but I do have concerns because of the extreme privations she suffered as a baby, whether she will even be a 100% fully recovered bird. By this I mean while you may bring her back to a good weight and size and have her flying well, but the lack of good early nutrition may have deprived her from being 100% truly robust in health and body. For example, you mention that she can only still fly 20 feet or so, and are putting it down to lost tail feathers, pigeons can fly quite well without a tail, they mainly use it for turning and braking when landing, even without the tail feathers, at around the 7-8 weeks old she is at, plus the 300 grams she has reached, under normal circumstances, she should be flying quite strongly. 

Also, severely malnourished baby pigeons never develop real quality adult plumage, IMO, my guess would be from poor follicle formation when young, from this lack of nutrients, that follows them their whole life, which makes it more challenging for them to stay warm and waterproof. Over time, and this could be any number of months, she will get stronger and could make it most of the way back, but with the possible physical issues mentioned, and her on going interaction with you and your family and with the continued bonding that will surely be taking place, I am not sure whether she would be the best candidate to think about letting go, with a really good chance at making it on her own, IMHO. Not sure as well, at this point, whether you yourself could let her go now, without knowing Tressa had 100%+ chance at a good outcome for her.

By the way, great shot of Tressa and your dog .


Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Far as I could tell, Tressa's period of privation occurred after she was well Plumed and close to fledgling or had fledged, and, this then to me would suggest she would be fine as an adult, with no legacy.


I have had many who were in that condition, or worse, with severe illness and or injury and illness on top of severe privation...who, over weeks or a couple months, were as normal and full weight and perfect as if nothing had ever happened.


Talk about their emotional make up and sensibilities and feelings - 


The PPMV young adult I found around 7 or 8 weeks ago, who weighed like a piece of cumpled Newspaper...PPMV, Canker, Bacterial, sevre privation, now is likely over the 300 Gram mark, and almost able to self feed...standing very well with very little head or neck twistings now.

But, this Pigeon had/has a big crush on me, I have had to hand feed each day since getting them, and, lots of cuddles and Lap Towel time and Back and Shoulder Massages and so on, and they would be all 'wiggles' any time I'd look at them.


Well, I also have another similar one, eight feet away, same deal, and, I could see and feel and tell that the attentions I would give to the second one, would hurt the feelings of the first one! AND, vice versa!


I should know better, and to have made sure neither could see me interacting with the other, but, oh well, only so much room here for trying to arrange things!


...sigh...



Phil
Lv


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

RobertV said:


> Thanks Phil! I really had no idea about how much space they really need. Thus, I have something else in mind. I'm going to empy and clean my backyard shed, which is like a little condo. 18 feet in lenght, 12 feet high and even has 2 separate rooms. More so, It is also heated (3 electric baseboards) and has 3 or 4 light fixtures. Plus 6 single pane windows and double screened swung out doors.
> Heck, a person could live there quite comfortably.
> None the less, I need to make a few changes before she takes over the thing...
> Was thinking about 2 large skylights, in order to provide more ambient light, sunshine and so on. Not only that it is fully insulated, I even ran and installed a cable TV coax lead 2 years ago. It used to be my workshop and getaway, but not so lately. Therefore Tressa will be the most likely candidate. No way she can "escape" or venture outdoors. I built this thing like a fortress about 8 years ago. One ceiling is at 8 feet, divided by another at 4 feet, both rooms. I cannot ask for a better shelter. I may end up watching football with her on Monday nights!
> ...


That has got to be the luckiest feral pigeon in the world...lol...


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Bob, Tressa, doggies and Bob's family!

Flying ability hampered by wing clipping rather than missing tail feathers? Just wondering...

While I agree with Phil about lots of space, I do have a concern with too much height. Since Tressa will be with you for life, if she gets too high on some type of perch, how will you get her down if needed? 'Course, I have _more_ of a problem, being only 5'3"! 

I am not surprised that Tressa seems to have selected you, Bob. I would be willing to bet that Tressa is a hen and considers you her "mate!" Seems to me that hens *really* bond with their male humans!

Btw, that nose pecking is her way of preening her mate! 

Your posts will always be a delight as we can follow Tressa's progress and her adventures! LOVE those doggie shots! How many dogs have their own "back scratchers?" 

Did you ever investigate Boni's PGWear (diapers for pigeons?)

Love, Hugs and Scritches to ALL

Shi and the gang


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, I think there are few on here with your years of experience rescuing squeakers in varying degrees of condition, so I aways pay very close attention to what you have to say regarding them. Whenever I observe wild flocks of ferals, and these observations are true, from almost anywhere I have traveled in the world, I see a number of robust birds, that sometimes seem to look in even better condition than my own birds, who lead a pretty cushy life here. Then a larger group of birds in seemingly quite good condition, then on down to adult birds I call ragamuffins, adult birds a little underweight with poor feather condition, whose feathers seem not to have much waterproof ability.

I have always surmised this last group of birds, outside of any genetic predisposition and illnesses, suffered privations and poor nutrition at a critical time in their life, when their body systems where just developing, that lead to these body systems developing in a more poor manner that even proper nutrition when an adult was not able to compensate for. If I remember right, Tressa was found weighing about 90 grams and somewhere between 2-3 three weeks old, so this is why I grouped her in with birds, that although healthy and developed, just lack the robustness of birds that did not suffer these privations while still a developing squeaker. To me, that weight, at that age, was quite shocking and Bob has done quite a wonderful job of bringing a bird back from a place were I would have numbered her time left when found, not in days, but in hours, or perhaps even minutes. I find this stuff interesting and my suppositions may be wrong, but this is how I have thought about these birds.

Karyn


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Hello folks! Tough and busy times for me for the past month or so. Yet not for Tressa, who is doing great, became quite spoiled and quite demaniding right now. Due to my hectic work schedule, I get to see her every other day, at the most. Yet, she has brand new feathers all around, weighs well over 500 grams as of now, yet she still enjoys riding around my dog's back, rather than flying on her own. None the less, she does know how to fly, basically around the house. I cannot turn her loose yet, most likely after winter is over, due to obvious reasons. Thanks to all of you, she recovered and grew up quicker than I expected. 
While I was away, her attitude has changed. Maybe trying to "protect" her domain or something like that, but she is quite agressive whenever one of us (me, Daughter or Wife), are trying to put her back in her huge crate for the night. Once inside, she circles around and starts making weird noises, most likely pigeon talk of some sort. That's OK, it only takes a few seconds or so. 
I feel that she needs to get away from here, yet I cannot allow that to happen, since winter hasn't yet started, and from what I can tell, it's far from over. 
She's basically loose and free inside the house from dusk till dawn, more or less. I have to credit my Wife and Daughter for taking care of her while I was on the road.
Guess I'll turn her loose in spring, not until then. 
I am, however, extremely grateful for the advice and guidance you folks have provided, and so is Tressa. Yet, this is not the end of the story. More to follow. Thanks a million!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robert, 


500 Grams???



Yipes!


Tressa...m-i-g-h-t just be...Trestler ( ie: a He-Bird )


Glad to hear all goes well.


Images?


Best wishes!



Phil
L v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato said:


> Phil, I think there are few on here with your years of experience rescuing squeakers in varying degrees of condition, so I aways pay very close attention to what you have to say regarding them. Whenever I observe wild flocks of ferals, and these observations are true, from almost anywhere I have traveled in the world, I see a number of robust birds, that sometimes seem to look in even better condition than my own birds, who lead a pretty cushy life here. Then a larger group of birds in seemingly quite good condition, then on down to adult birds I call ragamuffins, adult birds a little underweight with poor feather condition, whose feathers seem not to have much waterproof ability.
> 
> I have always surmised this last group of birds, outside of any genetic predisposition and illnesses, suffered privations and poor nutrition at a critical time in their life, when their body systems where just developing, that lead to these body systems developing in a more poor manner that even proper nutrition when an adult was not able to compensate for. If I remember right, Tressa was found weighing about 90 grams and somewhere between 2-3 three weeks old, so this is why I grouped her in with birds, that although healthy and developed, just lack the robustness of birds that did not suffer these privations while still a developing squeaker. To me, that weight, at that age, was quite shocking and Bob has done quite a wonderful job of bringing a bird back from a place were I would have numbered her time left when found, not in days, but in hours, or perhaps even minutes. I find this stuff interesting and my suppositions may be wrong, but this is how I have thought about these birds.
> 
> Karyn




Hi Karyn, 



Far as I have seen, those way WAY skinny underweight, horrid protean-deficient weak Feathers, and all the rest...once clear of any illness, once on good chow for a few months or six months, they end up tough as a Tree Trunk and Solid-as-a-Rock and Strong-as-a-Bull and their new Feathers are perfect.

Just takes time and good chow and at least some physical exercise.

Some may remain smallish in size into adulthood, but, otherwise, all else catches up splendidly.



I have had some younger Adults who were in terrible shape when I found them, very undersized as well as severely under weight, who, once clear of their woes, and into the free fly free rove area a few months, I could not figure out who they were anymore, becaue they got BIG! Or got so much bigger anyway, they looked average size, instead of being conspicuously undersize.


I think sometimes, even though already into adulthood, once adequate nourishment and being clear of illness, they actually DO resume growing again, just to catch up!


One of my young adult when found, Wild, PPMV ones did that...they were hardly bigger than a Morning Dove, and, now, I can not tell them amid the various average size to larger others...so, they grew! Even though they were adults when I got them, had Orange or Red Eyes and all of it when found.



Best wishes, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## RobertV (Sep 15, 2010)

Waiting on daylight so I can take a few pics. Stby...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bob, good to hear from you and thanks for the update on Tressa, I have thought of you guys more than a few times in the last little while. Like Phil said, 500 grams, wow. I think we may have the opposite problem now and have to put Tressa on a diet (no joking). To tell you the truth, I have never heard of a feral weighing 500g, a more normal range for a "big" bird would be in the 375-425g range. So I think you can cut out all the treats about now and extra calories and just feed a good quality pigeon mix, and see how things go with weight. Also, 500g in just too much weight to be carrying around to be able to fly with strength and agility, real musts in avoiding predation in the wild, glad to hear all else is well.

Phil, thanks for taking the times to post this information, I found it to be insightful and interesting

Will wait for the new photos. Bob, double check Treesa's weight again on your scale as well.

Karyn


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