# Whoever bred these birds should be charged....



## Insomniac (Aug 21, 2007)

I went to two auctions this weekend in Olds and Innisfail Alberta and was disgusted with what I saw. The animals were treated like inanimate objects, tossed around and crowded. We managed to rescue some animals, bidding on them when their price went down to the 1-5 dollar range, leaving them at risk of being purchased by dog trainers... 

Whoever bred and likely continues to breed these birds should be charged with animal cruelty! They are severely deformed and were in a box of "mixed pigeons" being sold at auction. The person selling them must have known that this wasn't normal for this breed!

Their heads are way back by their tails, and only with a lot of effort and momentum can they get their heads over their chests and hold them normally, and eat. They have meat on their bones though, and manage to get healthy amounts of food into their crops. It's difficult for them to walk in strange places because they can't see very well ahead.

They can fly and when they perch they can position themselves so that they're leaning forward and their heads are in an almost normal position.

They court one another and preen one another, like normal happy pigeons.

Flying is difficult for them because their bodies are shaped oddly, landing is even harder.


It will take a bit of time to determine their quality of life. Right now they are very scared of me and literally lose control of their heads and necks if I startle them. When I am watching them from afar, they appear much more in control.




































Here's a clip of the worst one.... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzFS_7rhRqE


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Thats really upsetting to see.Hope you can give them some sort of life although it does look a struggle for them.Is this a bit like dog breeding like bulldogs where they breed them to get flatter faces and then their breathing is impaired?All in the name of "fashion"!I felt physically sick watching the poor bird in your video.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank goodness you got them and took them to safety. It is amazing to what extent greedy humans will go. But then, humans have deliberately deformed and mutilated their own children in the interests of attaining some distorted "standard".

Cynthia


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Poor birds!!  

I can't bring myself to watch the video.

Lindi


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I hate to break it to you guys, but there is nothing wrong with these birds. The way they are holding their heads is normal. I used to have a couple of fantails and they are sort of funny looking, but they can do everything any other pigeon can do. Mate, eat, drink, etc..............don't feel sorry for them. Just take care of them and let them be what they are.  
Let me add that I have no doubt that they were crammed into cages and not handled properly. I've seen that myself at local pigeon auctions and shows and I always speak up and tell the person to be a little more careful with the birds. They always look at me like I'm some kind of idiot, but they DO noticeably handle the pigeons a little differently. I also have no doubt that had you not taken these beautiful birds home, something tragic would have happened to them. 
Here is a description of the breed:

DESCRIPTION 
Indian Fantail pigeons are most commonly white with light tan spots, although breeders have intruduced more colors. They have a fan-shaped 
tail and their feet are covered in feathers.Their average weight is 13 ounces (369 g) and their average length is 11 inches (28 cm). It is interesting to note that the birds walk on their toes.*The chest is carried upright so that it is higher than the bird's head, which rests back on the cushion formed by the tail feathers. *

http://www.pueblozoo.org/archives/jun03/feature.htm


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Are you sure that is not a special breed of pigeon?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yep, that is a specific breed, I was just going to post and I see Renee just posted.

Thank you for taking them home and giving them a wonderful life.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee, our replies crossed - thanks for providing the name of these pigeons. I knew they were a special breed but couldn't remember which one.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I want to also add this little tidbit.............I too believe that way back when.........whoever DID develope this breed of pigeon should have had their head examined. They DO NOT look comfortable, however, having said that, the PIGEON is born like that and lives it's whole life like that and knows nothing else, so I would expect that it pains US more than the pigeon to watch them. I too agree that the world would have been perfectly fine without some human messing with the species and coming up with this breed, but they did and they are here and are never going away, so, like I said before, just give the birds a good home. THEY don't know they are different.


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## EgypSwiftLady (Jan 14, 2008)

I feel so bad for these pijjys, PLEASE don't put them down. If they are fat they must be eating, their eyes look bright they look healthy except for their handicap. And watching the video they seem to be able to get around. I have taken in many animals theough the years that have had birth defects or have been maimed by people, I know many of you have handicapped pigeons, some have very severe handicaps.
If you do not want these birds I will gladly take them.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2008)

I have a pair of white fantails too and thats pretty much what they do too ,with the head wayyyyy back or bobbing around , high up on thier toes and yup thats exactly what they are supposed to do ..all apart of being a fantail lol welcome to the wide world of pigeon varietys ..just remember they werent really ment to be a flying breed but can get around just fine in just about any loft  they are very interesting and most often very tame so have fun with them


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

They look like normal fantails to me


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## Insomniac (Aug 21, 2007)

Are you sure? Because we've had fantails in the rescue before and I know people that have them, and they aren't as extreme as this. They don't shake and wobble when they try to bring their heads forward, and they don't stumble and run into things all the time. It isn't a struggle for them to eat and they don't stumble as they turn around. If this IS normal, and the fantails I've come into contact with in the past aren't normal...then shame on those that breed them, because these pigeons are clearly struggling.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Insomniac said:


> Are you sure? Because we've had fantails in the rescue before and I know people that have them, and they aren't as extreme as this. They don't shake and wobble when they try to bring their heads forward, and they don't stumble and run into things all the time. It isn't a struggle for them to eat and they don't stumble as they turn around. If this IS normal, and the fantails I've come into contact with in the past aren't normal...then shame on those that breed them, because these pigeons are clearly struggling.


I don't know enough about the Fantails to know what is extreme. I do know however, that the two I had laid their heads back VERY far and wobbled. I had two hens and they actually mated up with two of my race birds, laid eggs, (no babies though, dummy eggs were given) and they did just fine. If you go searching for pictures of fantails, you'll see everything from them being totally upright to leaning WAY back. I honestly don't know what causes the difference in the way they stand. The picture I post above in my first post is a national champion fantail, according to the web site it came from.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

They are "clearly" struggling to you because you are not used to seeing them this way. If they were truly struggling, they wouldn't live very long I don't expect. Again, they are what they are. The breed was probably developed years and years ago. I could go look it up I suppose.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2008)

if you dont believe us here is a video for a comparison to help show you this is a norm for them  lol seeing is believing http://youtube.com/watch?v=FLMaCZ6IlgA&feature=related

that should take away any doubt


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> I don't know enough about the Fantails to know what is extreme. I do know however, that the two I had laid their heads back VERY far and wobbled. I had two hens and they actually mated up with two of my race birds, laid eggs, (no babies though, dummy eggs were given) and they did just fine. If you go searching for pictures of fantails, you'll see everything from them being totally upright to leaning WAY back. I honestly don't know what causes the difference in the way they stand. The picture I post above in my first post is a national champion fantail, according to the web site it came from.


I don't keep them myself but have seen many many fantails at shows and to tell the truth I always think to myself that it looks extremely awkward and uncomfortable. But they manage fine, although in little show cages they seem to stumble about a bit, they manage to eat/drink and do their pidgie things and seem to be in no distress despite how it appears. The image Renee put up is a good reference cuz it's a champion bird in fine form and it does look like someone broke it, if you don't realize what you are seeing. The pics in this thread to me just look like normal fantails. Sooner or later a fantail breeder will pop in here and discuss with their expertise. 

Sorry that would be Lokota and already did that


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Actually, there are some pictures in the Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds, by Wendell Levi, that have a stance like the pictures you have posted. The pictures are on page 115-120. Every Fantail I have ever known,has not been able to fly very well. They have a hard time taking off, staying in the air and landing too. These birds should never be let outside of a coop or aviary to fly free...not ever.
Recently, someone locally dumped 50 Fantail pigeons in Mt Hood National Forest. They were found by a forest ranger that followed vehicle tracks up an access road. The pigeons were huddled together, on the ground, in the snow. All but 12 of the 50 had perished. They couldn't fly well enough to get up in the trees. All were full bodied and in good health. All have found homes locally, which is wonderful news. I don't know why exactly I told you this story right now except to say that my horror, as to the way humans treat animals, is renewed nearly daily and I guess I needed to say it again.


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## Elizabethy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Is it true...*

Hi-
I've heard that Fantails have been bred to the point where they can't reliably sit on and hatch their own eggs, that Fantail eggs are routinely pulled and given to other, less distorted-body birds, to rear... true?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Elizabethy said:


> Hi-
> I've heard that Fantails have been bred to the point where they can't reliably sit on and hatch their own eggs, that Fantail eggs are routinely pulled and given to other, less distorted-body birds, to rear... true?


I have no idea. Hopefully George will come along in a little while and he might know. There are a few breeds that can't raise their own babies, and by the way, I DO NOT agree with creating a breed that can't raise babies as that's one of natures God given abilities, but I have no idea if fantails are one of those.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2008)

well I can tell you this much , my pair is capable of raising their own babys but I cant speak for all of the fantails out there . I do think lots of people use fosters just to be on the safe side thou makes for less losses if they are bred for show .


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## jboy1 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Fantail*

I have had pigeons for 37 yrs and i can assure you that is how they are,I also judge all breed pigeons you may want to buy a a book on all breeds of pigeons.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think it's Owls that can't raise their own babies not Fantails.
These birds are normal for their breed. They are not deformed in any way. They are show birds. You got some beautiful birds from a horrible situation.


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## Insomniac (Aug 21, 2007)

I agree that they are beautiful birds, and don't get me wrong...in no way am I saying they are unhappy or undeserving of life. However...is this a natural breed, or were they created to look like this? 

Regardless of whether this is normal or not for their breed, and I believe it is now from what you've told me, I have to disagree with creating a breed that can't properly fly. Do they not still have the natural desire to fly, as any other pigeon? My homers, when let out, loved nothing more then flying and doing high laps of our neighborhood, playing in the air... do these birds not desire that as well, but can't, because they've been bred to be so deformed? 

When I say they clearly struggle, I mean...they cannot function as smoothly and normally as a regular pigeon, and I think that's a pity. I still love them, I still want them, I still believe they deserve a full and happy life...I just don't think people should be breeding birds like this.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

its typical fantail although i must admit if the bird keeps walking backwards and falling over its badly bred. it ifs this shape and stand up right without a problem its perfect normal. i keep fantails as pumpers and i opt for the ones that dont have the head so badly back


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*An interesting tid-bit*

Indian Fantail
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Indian FantailThe Indian Fantail is a breed of Fancy pigeon developed over many years of selective breeding. Indian Fantails along with other varieties of domesticated pigeons are all descendants from the Rock Pigeon (Columba livia).

The introduction of this variety to the U.S.A. was a strange one. In 1926. A shipment of four pythons was on its way to the San Diego Zoo in California from India. The journey over seas lasted many days and to ensure the reptiles didn’t go hungry, Indian fantail pigeons, found exclusively in India until then, were given to the pythons as snake feed.

By the time the ship reached California, only two survived.

The keepers at the San Diego Zoo who had obviously never seen Indian fantail pigeons before were so taken by their distinct looks that they decided to keep, and later breed and develop them. It was from these two lucky birds that the species of Indian fantail pigeons spread beyond Indian shores and reached the farthest corners of the world.[1]


[edit] References
^ Farooqui, Mazhar. Tale of the Fantail: Two pigeons and a story (Web article). Xpress News. Retrieved on 2008-02-14.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> I have no idea. Hopefully George will come along in a little while and he might know. There are a few breeds that can't raise their own babies, and by the way, I DO NOT agree with creating a breed that can't raise babies as that's one of natures God given abilities, but I have no idea if fantails are one of those.


Renee,

I guess we all have our ethical lines we won't cross. I raise Domestic Show Flights and they don't raise their own babies. I don't know why. They mate normally, brood their eggs well, but when the babies hatch they abandon them. So I, as most people who raise them do, use pumpers. Is it an ethical problem for me? I feel as long as they are able to live comfortable lives and do the rest of normal pigeon things I'm OK with assisted breeding. The fact is that most breeds are due to human selective breeding and most cannot live outside a loft on their own which also should be a God given ability. Whenever we keep a bird in captivity, we alter it's ability to care for itself in some way. I for one could not raise a baby only to send it out to fly, knowing in terms of numbers that some of those birds will not make it back. That is just me, not a criticism of you. You and I both love our birds equally. We just have different views of what is OK for our birds. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, but the way you put it sounded a bit more critical than perhaps was needed. However you have the right to your opinion.

Margaret


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

LokotaLoft said:


> ...here is a video for a comparison to help show you this is a norm for them ...http://youtube.com/watch?v=FLMaCZ6IlgA&feature=related...


They look like dancing flowers! 



Charis said:


> ...Recently, someone locally dumped 50 Fantail pigeons in Mt Hood National Forest. They were found by a forest ranger that followed vehicle tracks up an access road. The pigeons were huddled together, on the ground, in the snow. All but 12 of the 50 had perished...


Glad the forest ranger was so thorough!



Charis said:


> I think it's Owls that can't raise their own babies...


I think it depends - Old German Owls are excellent parents, although some of the smaller beaked owl breeds may be unable to feed their young.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Margarret said:


> Renee,
> 
> I guess we all have our ethical lines we won't cross. I raise Domestic Show Flights and they don't raise their own babies. I don't know why. They mate normally, brood their eggs well, but when the babies hatch they abandon them. So I, as most people who raise them do, use pumpers. Is it an ethical problem for me? I feel as long as they are able to live comfortable lives and do the rest of normal pigeon things I'm OK with assisted breeding. The fact is that most breeds are due to human selective breeding and most cannot live outside a loft on their own which also should be a God given ability. Whenever we keep a bird in captivity, we alter it's ability to care for itself in some way. I for one could not raise a baby only to send it out to fly, knowing in terms of numbers that some of those birds will not make it back. That is just me, not a criticism of you. You and I both love our birds equally. We just have different views of what is OK for our birds. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, but the way you put it sounded a bit more critical than perhaps was needed. However you have the right to your opinion.
> 
> Margaret


Point taken. I did however say that I believed *CREATING* a breed that *couldn't* raise their babies was wrong. I had no idea that DSF's *wouldn't* raise their babies. There's a difference in "not being able to" and just plain "not" raising a baby. And I was specifically referring to the "almost no beak" OF's. My point was, why would someone develope a bird with no beak and know that it can't raise it's own children. However, I surely don't want this discussion to get over the top in terms of who's believes what. Like you said, we all have the right to our opinion. So, having said that, I'll just be quiet now.  I seem to have gotten myself in hot water on a few occasions this week and it's only Tuesday!!  Most of that having nothing to do with PT. I tend to have those moments.....


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> DESCRIPTION
> Indian Fantail pigeons are most commonly white with light tan spots, although breeders have intruduced more colors. They have a fan-shaped
> tail and their feet are covered in feathers.Their average weight is 13 ounces (369 g) and their average length is 11 inches (28 cm). It is interesting to note that the birds walk on their toes.*The chest is carried upright so that it is higher than the bird's head, which rests back on the cushion formed by the tail feathers. *


Here's a picture of our 'Beautiful' that Chuck picked up from Charis. 
To my understanding he's an Indian Fantail. This is his natural position, whether he's walking, talking or just standing. 
Is this an unusual type of Indian Fantail, in that he doesn't carry his head way back like the pictures I've seen? I do know one thing, he's HUGH.  

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Here's a picture of our 'Beautiful' that Chuck picked up from Charis.
> To my understanding he's an Indian Fantail. This is his natural position, whether he's walking, talking or just standing.
> Is this an unusual type of Indian Fantail, in that he doesn't carry his head way back like the pictures I've seen? I do know one thing, he's HUGH.
> 
> Cindy


Cindy, I did see Beautiful make the Fantail pose several times while he was here. In your care, Beautiful seems to be content with himself and his surroundings and because of the elevation of his spiritual self, he doesn't need to flaunt his heritage.


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## Tilly (Feb 16, 2008)

Insomniac said:


> Are you sure? Because we've had fantails in the rescue before and I know people that have them, and they aren't as extreme as this. They don't shake and wobble when they try to bring their heads forward, and they don't stumble and run into things all the time. It isn't a struggle for them to eat and they don't stumble as they turn around. If this IS normal, and the fantails I've come into contact with in the past aren't normal...then shame on those that breed them, because these pigeons are clearly struggling.


I have a friend that has a lovely fantail pigeon. The pigeon shakes when it is nervous or feels stress. Also when people it doesn't know get too close which is just a natural thing to want to do because she is so beautiful.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Charis said:


> Cindy, I did see Beautiful make the Fantail pose several times while he was here. In your care, Beautiful seems to be content with himself and his surroundings and because of the elevation of his spiritual self, he doesn't need to flaunt his heritage.


Charis, Cindy, and all
I believe there are two types of fantail. Indian and American. The Americans tend to have the more distorted head poses I think, though I am somewhat confused about *all* of the differences. Indian fantails generally have feathered feet like Beautiful does, while the American fantail is clean legged. 

My 3 fantails mostly walk like Beautiful does, but do pull their heads way back sometimes and/or wobble their necks in curiosity. When Munchkin my white fantail is harassing the other males or trying to impress his mate, he pulls his head way back and stands on tippy-toes. (flaunting his heritage is one way to put it, lol) I am honestly not sure whether mine are Indian or American, and I know that Munchkin has some feral in him. 

Insomniac - I am glad the birds in question were rescued by you from what sounds like a bad situation. But they are perfectly normal for their breed so don't be overly concerned about the way they look or move. You will get used to that. It may be somewhat exacerbated now because they are a little nervous in their new home. 

Fantails have little desire to fly and are pretty content just to strut around like little peacocks. But as has already been pointed out, they are easy targets for predators because of this so please don't let them out.

Fantails are so very tame, they make wonderful pets! They also make great parents and I have heard that they are often used as fosters for more nervous or difficult breeds. Anyway - that's about all I know.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

One thing I try to keep in mind, always, is the debt of gratitude I have for the racing and show pigeon owners/breeders. Without them, I honestly do not believe we would have the pigeon supply houses like Foys, Global, Siegels, etc. Nor would we have the pigeon specific medicine, seed, and other supplies that we use on a daily basis for our beloved feral pigeons.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> One thing I try to keep in mind, always, is the debt of gratitude I have for the racing and show pigeon owners/breeders. Without them, I honestly do not believe we would have the pigeon supply houses like Foys, Global, Siegels, etc. Nor would we have the pigeon specific medicine, seed, and other supplies that we use on a daily basis for our beloved feral pigeons.


Maggie, that is exactly how I see it! No way would much of what we have today have been developed and tried and tested if the only pigeons were the few remaining 'real' Rock Doves, or our ferals. It might then be a case of "Well, this works for parrots or budgies, maybe it will work for pigeons". And maybe not! I guess a very experienced and diligent avian vet would recognize some problems that different species have in common, but people like that are definitely not a dime a dozen!

John


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Insomniac said:


> Are you sure? Because we've had fantails in the rescue before and I know people that have them, and they aren't as extreme as this. They don't shake and wobble when they try to bring their heads forward, and they don't stumble and run into things all the time. It isn't a struggle for them to eat and they don't stumble as they turn around. If this IS normal, and the fantails I've come into contact with in the past aren't normal...then shame on those that breed them, because these pigeons are clearly struggling.


YES this is normal. A standard fantail should set its head back in the pocket/ at the base of the tail. NOW they do not do this 24/7 but do it often. It is bred into them to do so. THE leser quality fantails do not do this as well. They are bred to have up front legs helping to show a point of round body as a ball. Look up the central fantail club sight and go to the standard. You will find you have normal birds that seem healthy. May not be show winners but fantails they are.


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

on a site with the judging scores for indian fantails it states that ,carrying breast too high,head back too far and shaking of neck as faults.It also states that the eyes should be directly over the tips of the toes when the bird is stood.It also states that there should be a one and a half inch space between the head and tail which clearly these birds don't have.These are more like exhibition fantails and people have probably been breeding to get birds with-in their opinion BETTER SHAPES.Like in the bulldogs ,as long as the nose was flatter and the chest was broader sod the breathing problems!I also believe that these birds can't function as they probably used to.Creatures were created a certain way and many have evolved and adapted such as humans and penguins usually to their advantage.Have these birds naturally adapted so they can't see where they're going and can't comfortably eat or fly.I don't think so! No offence intended,just my opinion.


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## Insomniac (Aug 21, 2007)

I agree...and I think that at least one of these pigeons was very poorly bred. Honestly, when I let them out today (in my room), there is a big difference between the two. One of them literally turns in circles most of the time, and when he tries to follow his friend up onto the shelf or desk, he can't land and falls to the floor. So then he just sits in one spot trying to look up at his friend, head shaking and rolling, turning in a circle....


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Insomniac said:


> I agree...and I think that at least one of these pigeons was very poorly bred. Honestly, when I let them out today (in my room), there is a big difference between the two. One of them literally turns in circles most of the time, and when he tries to follow his friend up onto the shelf or desk, he can't land and falls to the floor. So then he just sits in one spot trying to look up at his friend, head shaking and rolling, turning in a circle....


Were these birds vacinnated for PMV, paratyphoid, etc.? Tis possible that you've got a sick fantail there.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Insomniac said:


> I agree...and I think that at least one of these pigeons was very poorly bred. Honestly, when I let them out today (in my room), there is a big difference between the two. *One of them literally turns in circles most of the time*, and when he tries to follow his friend up onto the shelf or desk, he can't land and falls to the floor. *So then he just sits in one spot trying to look up at his friend, head shaking and rolling, turning in a circle*....


I would definitely ISOLATE that one from the others, at least until you have dicsovered exactly what's going on. 

Cindy


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

solly said:


> on a site with the judging scores for indian fantails it states that ,carrying breast too high,head back too far and shaking of neck as faults.It also states that the eyes should be directly over the tips of the toes when the bird is stood.It also states that there should be a one and a half inch space between the head and tail which clearly these birds don't have.These are more like exhibition fantails and people have probably been breeding to get birds with-in their opinion BETTER SHAPES.Like in the bulldogs ,as long as the nose was flatter and the chest was broader sod the breathing problems!I also believe that these birds can't function as they probably used to.Creatures were created a certain way and many have evolved and adapted such as humans and penguins usually to their advantage.Have these birds naturally adapted so they can't see where they're going and can't comfortably eat or fly.I don't think so! No offence intended,just my opinion.


I understand the point you are making. I feel the same way about some breeds of dog, and other domesticated animals that have been bred to some arbitrary ideal. In some cases the animal's form (and relentless inbreeding for 'desirable' traits) leads to discomfort for the individual, at the very least, and sometimes worse.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You know the american fantail Is perhaps the most competive breed of show birds out there. The Queen of the fancy it is called. It takes a select breeding program to produce good birds. And with an off set You can not breed them to be just alike in the loft. They are a challenge but rewarding. If the bird is walking in circles It perhaps had its flight feather caught in its tail. Believe me these birds look OK. And understand they are bred by many people And live a good life. If you feel they are deformed .THEN you perhaps do not understand there standard of breeding. Perhaps you keeping fantails is not your need. But if you learn more about them They are a great breed to work with


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## Insomniac (Aug 21, 2007)

No, I WANT and love these birds, I simply think that breeding an animal for appearance...one that likely still has the natural desire to fly like it's ancestors...to the point that they have to walk on their toes and can't fly properly is greedy and a bit overboard. I do not think less of these birds, I do not want to get rid of them..... I just think that people shouldn't be breeding them to this extreme. 

And he is now isolated and has a vet appointment, but he has very healthy looking poops, is eating normally, has bright eyes and a wicked wing slap.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Insomniac said:


> No, I WANT and love these birds, I simply think that breeding an animal for appearance...one that likely still has the natural desire to fly like it's ancestors...to the point that they have to walk on their toes and can't fly properly is greedy and a bit overboard. I do not think less of these birds, I do not want to get rid of them..... I just think that people shouldn't be breeding them to this extreme.
> 
> And he is now isolated and has a vet appointment, but he has very healthy looking poops, is eating normally, has bright eyes and a wicked wing slap.


 glad you are taking the one for a checkup in case it is sick. I understand what you mean with the breeding for odd traits. But imo these birds are perfectly happy to strut around and I honestly don't think they have a strong desire to fly like other breeds do. I really think they are content to be what they are. And so long as you provide domestic comforts and safety they will be happy campers. And it certainly sounds like you intend to do that


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2008)

heres some pictures of my pair doing what they do best  
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2521035560100568353lMDkXp?vhost=pets
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2843416790100568353UvMhgh?vhost=pets
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2549299400100568353Mmdadv?vhost=pets


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2008)

and heres one of my indian fantails ,I couldnt get a clear shot as he would not stop moving for a second lol 
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2550008340100568353mfIzSC?vhost=pets
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2550008340100568353mfIzSC?vhost=pets


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> and heres one of my indian fantails ,I couldnt get a clear shot as he would not stop moving for a second lol
> http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2550008340100568353mfIzSC?vhost=pets
> http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2550008340100568353mfIzSC?vhost=pets


Really beautiful birds.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2008)

thanks  and they are all so tame too, they almost like to be handled ..almost lol


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> thanks  and they are all so tame too, they almost like to be handled ..almost lol


I am jealous.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Charis said:


> I think it's Owls that can't raise their own babies not Fantails.
> These birds are normal for their breed. They are not deformed in any way. They are show birds. You got some beautiful birds from a horrible situation.


 Hi Charis, I raise ITALIAN OWLS these birds raise there own young and do a very good job. I do not use pumpers(foster parents). I have always felt that the birds that I have must be able to raise their young and must be able to fly,I will not have it any other way. Now having said that I know there are other types of the owl breeds that breeders use pumpers to breed these birds.The breeders that use pumpers use homing pigeons because the get much better and healtier young as the homing pigeon is a fantastic parent and a great feeder. GEORGE


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

george simon said:


> Hi Charis, I raise ITALIAN OWLS these birds raise there own young and do a very good job. I do not use pumpers(foster parents). I have always felt that the birds that I have must be able to raise their young and must be able to fly,I will not have it any other way. Now having said that I know there are other types of the owl breeds that breeders use pumpers to breed these birds.The breeders that use pumpers use homing pigeons because the get much better and healtier young as the homing pigeon is a fantastic parent and a great feeder. GEORGE


Thank you, George, I had been told otherwise by a breeder of Owls here.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Insomniac,
I agree with you completely. This is not against the people who keep and love these types of show birds....but it was incredibly selfish and inhumane of people in the past to breed birds to become deformed/unable to eat on their own/unable to fly, just to satisfy some human idea of aesthetics. I'm not saying the birds are unhappy, but it was warped on the part of humans to create them. Same goes for cats and dogs that are breeded for extreme characteristics...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I also think the American fantails look "funny" the indian fantails have a much more normal stance. with all the pigeon breeds out there it is mind bogeling. there are some strange birds out there. fascinating!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

spirit wings said:


> I also think the American fantails look "funny" the indian fantails have a much more normal stance. with all the pigeon breeds out there it is mind bogeling. there are some stange birds out there. fasinating!


I see you're a new member, so just wanted to say welcome. I'm in VA too by the way........Martinsville.
Do you have pigeons?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> I also think the American fantails look "funny" the indian fantails have a much more normal stance. with all the pigeon breeds out there it is mind bogeling. there are some stange birds out there. fasinating!


Love the picture of the cote. I want one!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks, I'am buliding my loft now, and my white pigeons are a twinkle in the cocks eye as i have an order to pick up a kit in june. I will be getting 30 babies to train. I have had pet doves and some modenas in the past.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The cote in the pic is the one in historic williamsburg. it is really cool. i wish my hubby would build me one,


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*They are show bred fantails*

The more bred up for show that they are, the worse off they seem to be. They are actually fine but seem uncomfortable as their heads are always pulled behind their chest. They do alot of head shaking. I'm not sure why the show people decided to breed to this extreme but it is what they have done. I quit keeping fantails when they got to this extreme as I didn't feel that they were comfortable with their bodies. 

The Indian Fantail is another fantail which has much better control of it's own actions. They have not been bred to the extreme of the American? Show Fantail. 

Parlor Rollers and Parlor Tumblers have been breed to the extreme that they cannot even fly. The breeders clap their hands to make them nervous and they just flop across the floor in backward sommersaults to the amusement of their keepers. I never understood this one either.

Bill


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