# Ill pigon found, i need some advice!



## chriss80

Ill pigeon needs advice

I do not know haw to help this pigeon I found, he seems ill and I do not know what to give him. I wrote down all the details I noticed and the story and I would much appreciate any advice. I leave quite far away from a place that could help him. I can get at some big pet store where they have medicines but I have no ideea what to get.

Today an pigeon was sitting on the house and was not moving, I watched him for a while and he was all puffed up, he only moved a little bit from time to time. He stayed on the house half the day until he tried to come down. He tried to land on my widow roof but he failed to do so and he fell on the ground, I looked at him for a few minutes and he was not responding, I throw some food near him and he ate a few sunflower seeds but he was not interested in the rest of them and then I throw some bread and still no movement. Then I decided to go at him slowly and he moved slightly away from me but he did not flew away, I went closer and it was no problem catching him, he first trembled a bit for while but then he relaxed. I brought him into the house and put him into a cardboard box in which I made holes in it. Then I looked at him for a closer inspection and he has no bites on him, he poops seem ok too, there a few parasites here in there on feathers but nothing out of proportion. I gave him some food is a wild birds mix and he barely pecked at it, his crop has some food in it now is like 15% full. I had to insist for him to eat by putting his food near his beck and only then he was pecking a few seeds and after was stopping and so on. He also dinked some water. I sow this pigeon 2 days ago and he was puffed up then too. I looked down his troth and is all clear. I am not sure if his wing broke when he missed his landing or it was already broken of if he is ill beacuse of the wind or something else. I put a picture of him I just took. I never expected to find one of these red type pigeons ill; they are bigger, stronger and faster then the feral type.


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## Pidgey

Is it just the one wing that's hanging or do they both hang down similarly?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Can you feel under the middle of the body between and a tad forward of the legs to see if the keel bone feels like a knife running for to aft? If it's very prominent and such that you could literally pinch it between your fingers and hold the bird by it, then he's been sick for awhile.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> Is it just the one wing that's hanging or do they both hang down similarly?
> 
> Pidgey



It is just one wing!


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> Can you feel under the middle of the body between and a tad forward of the legs to see if the keel bone feels like a knife running for to aft? If it's very prominent and such that you could literally pinch it between your fingers and hold the bird by it, then he's been sick for awhile.
> 
> Pidgey


Yes can feel it, it is defenatly very proeminet.


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## chriss80

His weight is 359 grames!


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## feralpigeon

Are there any boils on the bad wing?

fp


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> Are there any boils on the bad wing?
> 
> fp


I would say there are no boils. I touched him and I felt the same bones in the bad wing as in the other, sometimes he keeps his bad wing normal, I looked on his skin as much as I could as he does not let me. and I see nothing, is hard to look all over as his feather and so well arranged but I think I took quite a good look and is all ok. I will keep an eye on this.


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## feralpigeon

Well, something is going on for the bird, hmm. Do you have the ability to
get any meds?

fp


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## Pidgey

I PMed and emailed John and Cynthia due to the fact this one's in the UK and seeing as how getting medications over there is a lot tougher than here.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

PLEASE follow the advice on this thread FIRST and FOREMOST

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822


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## chriss80

Trees Gray said:


> PLEASE follow the advice on this thread FIRST and FOREMOST
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822



Yes, was very useful, I reed it before and it was the first things I looked for when I found the pigeon!


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> I PMed and emailed John and Cynthia due to the fact this one's in the UK and seeing as how getting medications over there is a lot tougher than here.
> 
> Pidgey


Thank you! Yes there are strict rules about medications; antibiotics as far as I know are no.


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## Pidgey

Try this, too: feel the body of the bird around the keel and get an idea of the overall width. Compare the back end of the bird behind the legs to the front of the bird. They've got some bones back there and there's relatively little between them. If there is a hard mass, it can show up as a "fullness" of the abdomen. Hens sometimes get oviduct (reproductive) problems that make them look like that.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

chriss80 said:


> Thank you! Yes there are strict rules about medications; antibiotics as far as I know are no.


Yes, this I am aware of, though sometimes folks have some meds on hand
in their own medicine cabinet that can be used for pigeons, or they know
someone who does, have a connection that would be willing to supply
said meds, or live close to a breeder who would be willing to sell some
meds to them. These are some of the common routes for obtaining medicines
for birds when purchasing on line is too time consuming or not allowed.

fp


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> Well, something is going on for the bird, hmm. Do you have the ability to
> get any meds?
> 
> fp


I can get any meds as long as they are not the prescription type, there is a pet store some miles that sells medicines for all kind of animals.


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> Try this, too: feel the body of the bird around the keel and get an idea of the overall width. Compare the back end of the bird behind the legs to the front of the bird. They've got some bones back there and there's relatively little between them. If there is a hard mass, it can show up as a "fullness" of the abdomen. Hens sometimes get oviduct (reproductive) problems that make them look like that.
> 
> Pidgey


Is all fine there. From his behaviour might be a male, he wiggles his good wing up and down his body and tries to move the bad one too when I try to get near him and makes some noises and then pecks my hand, the bites are not hard.


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> Yes, this I am aware of, though sometimes folks have some meds on hand
> in their own medicine cabinet that can be used for pigeons, or they know
> someone who does, have a connection that would be willing to supply
> said meds, or live close to a breeder who would be willing to sell some
> meds to them. These are some of the common routes for obtaining medicines
> for birds when purchasing on line is too time consuming or not allowed.
> 
> fp


good idea, if I find I need something I will defiantly ask people i know!


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## feralpigeon

Could you give an example of meds that you can purchase?

Does this pet store sell aquarium supplies? I've noticed Trimethoprim
Sulpha being sold in pet stores here in the aquarium section. Baytril
is the medication of choice for Paratyphoid, but Trimethoprim Sulpha
is used as an alternative. This med would also treat for Coccidial overburdens
which can ground birds as well, thiough not w/wing symptoms notably...

fp


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## Pidgey

You could try feeling that wing and comparing the joints and bones to the other one. Broken bones can feel extremely loose compared to those on a good wing. Give that a shot.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> Could you give an example of meds that you can purchase?
> 
> Does this pet store sell aquarium supplies? I've noticed Trimethoprim
> Sulpha being sold in pet stores here in the aquarium section. Baytril
> is the medication of choice for Paratyphoid, but Trimethoprim Sulpha
> is used as an alternative. This med would also treat for Coccidial overburdens
> which can ground birds as well, thiough not w/wing symptoms notably...
> 
> fp


Yes I sow they sell aquarium supplies- they sell medicines for fish and aquarium, I do not know exactly what type medicines.


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## feralpigeon

If they are close by and you can pop in and look at the packages in the 
aquarium section, look for both Metronidazole(Fishzole) and Trimethoprim Sulpha. This combo would get alot of the known devils that pigeons are encumbered with health-wise.

fp


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## feralpigeon

BTW, if you do indeed find and purchase those meds, you will need a way
to deliver said meds. If you can get a needle-less 1cc syringe or a dropper
that has the measurements of a syringe on the side, this would be great.

fp


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> You could try feeling that wing and comparing the joints and bones to the other one. Broken bones can feel extremely loose compared to those on a good wing. Give that a shot.
> 
> Pidgey


When I touch his bones there is nothing out of place comparing with the other wing. What i notice is that the good wing is stronger and the bad one is looser and has a late reaction when he retracts back. He can move the bad wing but when he is relaxing is dropped down


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> BTW, if you do indeed find and purchase those meds, you will need a way
> to deliver said meds. If you can get a needle-less 1cc syringe or a dropper
> that has the measurements of a syringe on the side, this would be great.
> 
> fp


Seringe... Oh boy!


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## Pidgey

Well, you can grasp the section that makes that forward curvature that you see by the front of the chest and the elbow that's kinda' hidden back in the feathers but up by the actual back. You might be able to detect that the two bones between those two points have a problem if you compare how stiff that section feels as opposed to the other side. It's hard to tell when they're letting a wing droop because they're just feeling miserable due to illness and when they've got an actual injury. Since this bird's got a prominent keel and the fact that it WAS up on something earlier, you'd tend towards thinking the illness. It's just nice to confirm that the bones are okay in case he needs some splinting or binding done.

What have the poops been looking like lately?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Could be a sprain/strain if you are unable to find a broken bone especially
with comparing to the good wing and in light of the fact that the bird is
retracting the wing. If it is a sprain/strain, it may or may not be related 
to the onset of a disease state/Paratyphoid. This is a common reason
for wing drooping, though, and wouldn't hurt to treat the bird. Sometimes
getting to the bottom of what is going on w/a rescue is a rule out process
and many times more than one thing is going on w/the bird.

fp


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## Pidgey

You can go here and study the skeletal drawings for help with that part:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I guess what I keep thinking about is that picture... it just looks a little odd to me, the way the wing is hanging. Granted, that's always a tough thing, trying to figure out how the bones are by way of looking at the feathers. I guess I'd try feeling the humerus to see if it feels as solid as the one on the other wing.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> Well, you can grasp the section that makes that forward curvature that you see by the front of the chest and the elbow that's kinda' hidden back in the feathers but up by the actual back. You might be able to detect that the two bones between those two points have a problem if you compare how stiff that section feels as opposed to the other side. It's hard to tell when they're letting a wing droop because they're just feeling miserable due to illness and when they've got an actual injury. Since this bird's got a prominent keel and the fact that it WAS up on something earlier, you'd tend towards thinking the illness. It's just nice to confirm that the bones are okay in case he needs some splinting or binding done.
> 
> What have the poops been looking like lately?
> 
> Pidgey


Thank you for the link is very useful! It is very tricky with the wing, I will ask my husband tomorrow and show him the drawing too.

His poops are green with white and solid.


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## feralpigeon

Here's a listing for a rehabber in Wales:

U.K., Wales, Conwy, Colwyn Bay..... 01492 532938
Peter Dickinson, Zoological Society of Wales, Welsh Mountain Zoo [email protected] or [email protected] Specialty: rearing and rehabbing of grey and common seal pups, red squirrels

You might also want to contact him and see if he can help or knows someone
else who may be in your area that could help. You'd also want to check
first and see what their policy is towards pigeons in general and specifically
non-releasables. They may also be able to get some meds for the bird or assess the bird's needs.

fp


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## chriss80

A few more things I have noticed: he does not eat properly; sometimes he pecks at the food but does not swallows it and he drops it back down again and after a few times he gives up, I only sow him swallowing his food properly a few times, he only tries to eat if I point him to the food. I forced feed him a bit with food and now his crop is 50 % full, he dinked water all by himself after but still I had to point him at the water box. It is night time here now and in a couple of hours I will go to bed but I will wake up from time to time to check on him, maybe on the day time he will have appetite and I will let him free around the room . Right now when I let him free he goes and hide in a corner.


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## Pidgey

That's pretty typical for a sick and/or injured bird. Sometimes you get the idea that they're seeing things through a fog which is consistent with shock.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

They have a few host-equilibrium conditions that flare up when
their system gets out of wack, Trichomonas, for instance can have a major
impact on their desire to eat. The bird could have any of these conditions
rearing their heads in addition to a more major illness like Paratyphoid
that affects both wings and legs(Articular), digestive tract, major organs like the colonization of the bacteria in the liver and CNS.

http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

There may be one presentation of the illness or more than one presentation
simultaneously.

All this while keeping in mind that this is the process of trying to rule things out
and this, while communicating through the internet w/out any of us being
doctors or having the benefit of a hands on exam.  

fp


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> They have a few host-equilibrium conditions that flare up when
> their system gets out of wack, Trichomonas, for instance can have a major
> impact on their desire to eat. The bird could have any of these conditions
> rearing their heads in addition to a more major illness like Paratyphoid
> that affects both wings and legs(Articular), digestive tract, major organs like the colonization of the bacteria in the liver and CNS.
> 
> http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html
> 
> There may be one presentation of the illness or more than one presentation
> simultaneously.
> 
> All this while keeping in mind that this is the process of trying to rule things out
> and this, while communicating through the internet w/out any of us being
> doctors or having the benefit of a hands on exam.
> 
> fp



Now looking at these links about the diseases I realise haw little I know about this pigeon, I need more time to study his behaviour. In salmonelloisis is mention about haw rats and mice can carry it, well I have plenty of them since a few weeks ago, there was a big empty factory building very close to my house that was demolished. Soon after it was demolished I started having loads of rats mice in different shapes, sizes and colours around my garden, I’ve never seen anything like this in my life.


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## Pidgey

How white are the light-colored portion to the poops?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Well, they are natural carriers of the disease and I do know what you mean
about the demo of a building causing a surplus in the visible population
of rats and mice. This may be at the heart of the problem. Yellow urates
can be an indicator of liver involvement, though it isn't a given that the urates
need to be yellow for this bird to have contracted the illness.

fp


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> How white are the light-colored portion to the poops?
> 
> Pidgey


They are not white as a piece of paper, a bit yellow or cream maybe. I will come back with a better answer tomorrow once as have the day light on!


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## Pidgey

Well, that said, it would be nice to acquire some Ciprofloxacin or Baytril (Enrofloxacin, the veterinary equivalent) for this bird as soon as possible.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Baytril/Cipro is the medication of choice, which is what I was alluding to in terms of your ability to obtain medications for the bird and resources that
folks finding sick pigeons for the first time have used when trying to scout
down meds. If you are unable to scout the preferred med down, Trimethoprim
Sulpha is used by many instead of Baytril or Cipro, and it is sometimes available
at pet stores that have an aquarium supply section.

fp


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## chriss80

Thank you everyone for the help! ill try to get some of the medicines as soon as possible. I will be off to sleep now for a while. I will come back with details ASAP.


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## chriss80

chriss80 said:


> They are not white as a piece of paper, a bit yellow or cream maybe. I will come back with a better answer tomorrow once as have the day light on!


Now that I look at it in the day time I don’t see it yellow or cream at all, it looks white. The bulbs make such a poor light into my place to me and is hard to tell haw things are sometimes!


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## chriss80

He seems more alert this morning, the wing is still dropped when he is relaxed. I leave the box without the top and he does not try to make a run for it. I am going to call the gower bird hospital for whild birds soon


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## chriss80

I talked to the people from Gower centre. They wore very nice and they said is ok to bring him and that they are there untill 6. Now the only problem is that I have no sort of busses that go there, I do not have a licence to drive, the road until there probably take about 1 hour drive on very narrow roads, my husband is extremely busy with work obligations & big exam for his degree and on top of that someone tried to steel the car last night and bended the door trying to get in (police took fingerprint etc… at around 2 in the morning). Is just so frustrating! Now ill call friends and see if I am lucky, fingers cross.


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## chriss80

I am a bit worried about his crop , I feed him this morning at 8 mostly sunflower seeds a bit and the at around 12 I cooked some porridge with water, let it cool down at room temperature and gave him some - about a teaspoon. Now is 6 and I can still feel some sunflower seeds when I touch his crop but not so many. It that normal? I did convince him to drink water by pointing him at it but that is all. In haw many hours should his crop empty? Should I force-feed him some grit too? I need to figure it because I want to take his food away and make sure he is not eating behind my back so I can see if his crop is working good, when I look at the food in his tray none is missing but you never know.


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## Pidgey

Frankly, it's not that easy to determine what's in the crop or how much. It's better to watch what's coming out the back end. They will almost always put out urates (concentrated urine) and bile (the dark green, almost black, paste) but true solids will be absent if nothing's going through. And, usually, an awful lot goes through a pigeon. Can you take a picture of the poops and post it?

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> Frankly, it's not that easy to determine what's in the crop or how much. It's better to watch what's coming out the back end. They will almost always put out urates (concentrated urine) and bile (the dark green, almost black, paste) but true solids will be absent if nothing's going through. And, usually, an awful lot goes through a pigeon. Can you take a picture of the poops and post it?
> 
> Pidgey


It is not always the same, which is odd, this picture is of the past 2 hours, it just differs


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## Pidgey

That top one has an odd look to it. Can you smear it out and see if it's a real dark green?

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Yes that one is a dark green


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## Pidgey

Did you get a Private Message from Cynthia about sending you some drugs?

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Pidgey said:


> Did you get a Private Message from Cynthia about sending you some drugs?
> 
> Pidgey



Yes i have , i am looking farward to that, i have sent her my detailes


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## Pidgey

Okay, good. I was hoping that you'd say something like that. In that case, it's a waiting game. Any change in his appetite or thirst?

Pidgey


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## chriss80

His crop food went down a little bit more and is quite small amount of seeds that I feel now. He still won’t eat and he doesn’t want to drink any water now. I am thinking that maybe in a couple of hours to force feed him with some porridge mainly.

The waiting game truly begins, i will be awake since the first hours of the morning in the next days


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## chriss80

i just got a med. is 50mg tablets, any advice about dosage much appeciated


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## chriss80

yup, all sorterd


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## feralpigeon

chriss80 said:


> yup, all sorterd


I'm assuming that you got dosing info w/the meds that Cynthia sent you?

fp


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> I'm assuming that you got dosing info w/the meds that Cynthia sent you?
> 
> fp



Yes, i talked with Cynthia and she was very helpfull


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## chriss80

I am noticing some dandruff falling off while he grooms. I reed that could be a sign of dehydration.


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## Pidgey

It's more likely that that's feather stuff. As their feathers come out of the follicles, they're encased in a sheath that has to be broken away so that the feather can expand out. That's an almost constant process that preening takes care of. As such, just about any bird is a constant source of that stuff.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

All right. No wander, pigeons are so feathery


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## chriss80

The piggi is started to be curious of the world around it, I think is a good sing.


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## Pidgey

Yes, that would be a good sign. Is he starting to eat more and poop more?

Pidgey


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## chriss80

He is pooping more and his crop is better, the food leaves faster his crop then in the beginning, but he is still not eating by himself, I am still force-feeding him because he rarely swallows any seeds but he do tries more times to eat now.


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## chriss80

Hello, today I took the piggi to the Gower Bird Hospital where they took him in and they are going to hold him for a few days and have him analyse under microscope and a doctor will look at him so they will found out what in wrong with him. They took notes on what medicines I gave him and so on. I also clearly specified to them that I am going to come back for him and that I am going to adopt him in case he cannot fly again and they will keep him so I can pick him up.I told them I will realease the pigeon myself, his mate comes daily around my garden anyway and I have showed him to her from the distance everyday for a few minutes. The said they are also going to feed him too. They explained they have some tube that goes right into his stomach with the food and they can do it easily. I was told that even though I feed him well since the 23rd he was very thin. By today the piggi was still not eating by himself and he was spending most of his time in the cage and could not fly. He tried to fly but he cannot even go up on chair, I do not think he has enough energy. He was becoming very curious though. I was told to call on Monday for him. 
For anyone that tries to go to the Gower Bird hospital I advise you leave the car behind near by and have a good pair of boots. The ride is an adventure; the road is bumpy and full of holes for about a mile and a half. The people wore very helpful in the area with directions and once you are near by there will be loads of bird signs with arrows on them. 
I miss this piggi aleredy!


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## feralpigeon

Thanks for the update Chriss80, it's great that you found a bird hospital that
is willing to work w/you and let you take the bird back when ready for release.
Is this through the contact in our Resource Section?

When you have the time, could you add the contact information, i.e., name,
address, phone number and contact person if any to this link for others from
your area who come here looking for help?:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8817

That would be great. Your pij friend is a handsome one in the pic, I hope all
goes well at the Hospital and you are able to reunite the two mates soon.

fp


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## chriss80

i have contacted the peron and she is gonna add it in the resource section


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## chriss80

I just had news regarding the pigeon. A doctor looked at him and it say he does not have a broken wing, he is still not flaying, and they want to keep him until Monday.


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## TAWhatley

chriss80 said:


> I just had news regarding the pigeon. A doctor looked at him and it say he does not have a broken wing, he is still not flaying, and they want to keep him until Monday.


Thanks for the update on the bird. Please do let us know what the vet has to say.

Terry


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## chriss80

I will do so, I am going to call Friday to find out haw he is


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## chriss80

I just talked to them and found out some good news about the pigeon. He has started to eat by himself since last night and he has put on a bit of weight. Still no wing flapping. They think he is slowly getting better. In the weekend the doctor is coming and Monday I will call again.


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## TAWhatley

Thanks for the update. I'm glad the bird is showing some improvement. 

Terry


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## chriss80

My husband called today and the woman on the phone and she said that the pigeon has a problem with his second joint in the wing and he is a bit stiff so they gave him antibiotics. 
This time was another woman on the phone that my husband talked to and he had a conversation with her. My husband remained her not to put the pigeon to sleep in case he will not be good to realise. And she started giving him a speech about haw wild birds need to be wild and so on and that he might be miserable sitting on a perch in a cage for the next 6 years of his life. He told her that we would not want the pigeon to be in pain and that we can provide him with an entertaining life and he will have all the space he wants in the house including a new mate and the necessary pigeon needs. Then she told him haw sad animals are in a cage at the zoo. She thinks that because he was a wild pigeon before he would hate his life with us no matter what we do. At the end she said they have some inquiries about the time the pigeon spent with us, my husband offer to remind her the phone number again but she said is ok because they already have it, that is odd. 
This all makes me really sad.
Bellow is a lovely picture where he appears, he is the second pigeon from the right , is seen only the middle of him. Some I saw this year are the same pigeons I sow last year in the beginning of September doing the same thing. Such intelligent creatures!


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## Feefo

This is the problem with handing pigeons over to many wildlife hospitals. They euthanase unreleasable pigeons and then assume that the know what their life in captivity would be like for them...since they have never observed they don't know how adaptable pigeons are or how readily they adapt to captivity.

We know that pigeons would prefer a life in captivity to death.;.they should know how quickly wild pigeons find a mate and lay eggs when they are in captivity, that should be a good indicator of whether they are happy or not.

Tell them that we can provide photos of wild pigeons in aviaries and that they behave exactly as they would in the wild. They gather twigs for their nests, the males display in front of the females, they preen themselves and their mates, they have their baths...all our videos and photos show active, happy pigeons!

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon

Hopefully your husband spoke w/an opinionated receptionist as opposed to 
someone who "enforces policy". Perhaps find out the hours of the Doctor 
or whomever you originally spoke w/and ask to either speak w/them or go
in person to have a talk reaffirming your original agreement w/them that 
the bird would be returned to you when they were through w/the medical
treatments. Pigeons do very well in captivity unlike many other bird species.

fp


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## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> Hopefully your husband spoke w/an opinionated receptionist as opposed to
> someone who "enforces policy". Perhaps find out the hours of the Doctor
> or whomever you originally spoke w/and ask to either speak w/them or go
> in person to have a talk reaffirming your original agreement w/them that
> the bird would be returned to you when they were through w/the medical
> treatments. Pigeons do very well in captivity unlike many other bird species.
> 
> fp


Yes I am going to talk to them, hopefully the usually lady is going to answer on the phone again. The doctor seems to be coming there only once a week sometime in the weekend. I know it is written in its file the details about the fact that we going to take it back if he is unrealisable, it also says that we will take him back and relies him to his flock too and they should call us in any of the circumstances. Is like the cooperation has stopped and they going to do whatever they feel like and put in practice their extremist ways out of a sudden no matter what, is just so unbelievable


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## feralpigeon

chriss80 said:


> Yes I am going to talk to them, hopefully the usually lady is going to answer on the phone again. The doctor seems to be coming there only once a week sometime in the weekend. I know it is written in its file the details about the fact that we going to take it back if he is unrealisable, it also says that we will take him back and relies him to his flock too and they should call us in any of the circumstances. Is like the cooperation has stopped and they going to do whatever they feel like and put in practice their extremist ways out of a sudden no matter what, is just so unbelievable


Well, you may need to get past the receptionist and to the Director of the facility or treating doctor--if you know his or her schedule. Might be worth
a trip in person. 

fp


----------



## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> Well, you may need to get past the receptionist and to the Director of the facility or treating doctor--if you know his or her schedule. Might be worth
> a trip in person.
> 
> fp


yeah, gonna give it a try!


----------



## feralpigeon

chriss80 said:


> yeah, gonna give it a try!


Bless you for keeping track on your rescue while at the hospital. Please
let us know. Hopefully an in person visit will clear up any internal confusion
there on the terms of your rescue's admittance to the wildlife hospital.

fp


----------



## chriss80

cyro51 said:


> This is the problem with handing pigeons over to many wildlife hospitals. They euthanase unreleasable pigeons and then assume that the know what their life in captivity would be like for them...since they have never observed they don't know how adaptable pigeons are or how readily they adapt to captivity.
> 
> We know that pigeons would prefer a life in captivity to death.;.they should know how quickly wild pigeons find a mate and lay eggs when they are in captivity, that should be a good indicator of whether they are happy or not.
> 
> Tell them that we can provide photos of wild pigeons in aviaries and that they behave exactly as they would in the wild. They gather twigs for their nests, the males display in front of the females, they preen themselves and their mates, they have their baths...all our videos and photos show active, happy pigeons!
> 
> Cynthia



I am glad you think this about the unrealisable pigeons; they have strong instinct for staying alive and in an aviary can lead a good life and he will get pigeon freinds too for company


----------



## Pidgey

Even in a home. You might print this story out to give to one of those folks the next time they suggest that a wild pigeon can't learn to enjoy living with people:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/pigeons/BerniePijStory.html

Pidgey


----------



## chriss80

I called today. I talked to the same person my husband talked to and I was told the same thing about the wild animals in captivity. She does not see any situation where a wild pigeon could be happy sadly; good aviary condition, pigeon company and entertainment do not matter. I asked about the pigeon and she told me that he has no made no real progress, he eats a bit by himself but he is still depends on the hand feeding, still no flaying. The pigeon is going to be moved in a place where he is goanna have more space to exercise. He is being watched by CCTV and when he is all by himself he stays puffed up all the time and with his wing dropped, she explain to me that when they are around people they tent to hide the pain because this is haw wild birds act around predators. He is given painkillers but he does not seem to respond to them yet. They are goanna keep him for another week and see haw it goes. I told her that the pigeon is very popular on the Internet pigeons community and people wait for updates. The most important thing that I manage to establish is about the final decision in case he is hopeless, I was told that I am gouging to be let know about it before he is put to sleep and that he is to be handed over to me and decide. This is really important and I do hope they keep their word. I do not want a life in pain for this poor bird but I really have to be convinced that he is in pain and they just cannot be trusted. I was told to call in 1 week but I am gonna call earlier and seeif I can reach the doctor.


----------



## Pidgey

Have 'em call Cynthia so that she can tell them a few things about pigeons in captivity. She's local and she's got lots of good stories.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Chriss80, thanks for the update... Do you know which antibiotic they 
chose to give the bird along w/the pain medication? Names of the meds
might be helpful.

It sounds as though you will need to call them daily so they don't forget
the initial agreement that they made w/you when they took the bird in
for care. It is promising that they are saying the decision will
be yours while at the same time discouraging that they keep raising the issue
of euthanizing unreleasable wild birds. It does sound as though you need
to be vigilant w/them. Hopefully Cynthia might be able to call them and 
speak w/the treating doctor.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

When you think about it, maybe it's the kind of thing one would start telling oneself in order to quiet one's conscience if one had to put animals to sleep on a regular basis. If that were the case, any argument to take away that defense mechanism would almost have to be ignored no matter how solid.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Sometimes it's a funding issue apparently, sometimes quality of life issues
are really on the table, but they haven't really provided any information that
would support either of these issues. They also don't seem rigidly adhering to
a "policy" stance either, so hopefully vigilance as in daily monitoring will
be helpful.

fp


----------



## Feefo

> Hopefully Cynthia might be able to call them and
> speak w/the treating doctor.


I can do that, but I am not the best person for the job, I know that I tend to put people's backs up because I speak my mind rather than using a diplomatic approach...it's not that I don't want to be diplomatic, it is that I don't have that skill! I was thinking I could get my friend Joan to call, or Les (a wing and a prayer), they are both persuasive and have observed the "captive" pigeons here. Or Keith or Lyz from Hallswood - they told me that they try to rehome unreleasables and they welcomed our suggestion to build a new aviary for unreleasable pigeons even before I said we would want to fund it. I know that they are not like other sanctuaries because they will look at a pigeon and advise the rescuer on its care then let the rescuer take it home again. I saw this happen last week. Most sanctuaries get the rescuer to sign the pigeon over and then say it will be euthanased.

Or maybe I could e-mail them and include photos or videos.

Sometimes it takes a badly injured pigeon quite a time to recover. Our Norbert had a broken leg, a broken wing and was pretty torn up after being in collision with a car. He had to be on painkillers and hand fed for weeks. Last week I saw him persistently chasing after Ado Annie and this week they are sitting on eggs. He can't fly, but he can use his wings to jump on boxes and he runs very fast. But if he had gone to a sanctuary (other than Hallswood of course ) they would have probably given him two weeks to recover and then euthanased him.

Cynthia


----------



## chriss80

I can provide a post office code card tomorrow at around 12 so it wont cost your friends anything to call


----------



## chriss80

It was truly hard for me to keep calm at the phone too but I do manage but is just talking to people in english It just don’t come so easy as it would of if I wore my own language. My husband got affect by the situation so I start calling them from now on. I do believe that diplomacy is the only way


----------



## chriss80

feralpigeon said:


> Chriss80, thanks for the update... Do you know which antibiotic they
> chose to give the bird along w/the pain medication? Names of the meds
> might be helpful.
> 
> It sounds as though you will need to call them daily so they don't forget
> the initial agreement that they made w/you when they took the bird in
> for care. It is promising that they are saying the decision will
> be yours while at the same time discouraging that they keep raising the issue
> of euthanizing unreleasable wild birds. It does sound as though you need
> to be vigilant w/them. Hopefully Cynthia might be able to call them and
> speak w/the treating doctor.
> 
> fp


i will be asking about the meds in the next phone call, thank you for the idea


----------



## Feefo

> I do believe that diplomacy is the only way


I absolutely agree!

Cynthia


----------



## feralpigeon

Well, I trust your judgement, Cynthia regarding how to proceed. One other
thought that comes to mind....if there are any official sanctuaries close
by that you work with perhaps having them ask to have the bird transferred
to their facility? Maybe not feasable, I just don't know. I know they do get
shuttled around this area between facilities sometimes.

fp


----------



## chriss80

My husband called today and the lady on the phone said to come and pick him up in the weekend. Tomorrow we will establish when exactly. I will ask the medical file too and a talk to the doctor. He was told that people from England called to ask for piggi too. She must of liked what she heard because there was a good cooperation.
This took a weight off my shoulders today. I am so glad the piggi gets more chances now


----------



## Feefo

That is great news, Chris. I was just about to send her some photographs of the pigeons in our aviary having a bath and preening each other.



> Cynthia regarding how to proceed. One other
> thought that comes to mind....if there are any official sanctuaries close
> by that you work with perhaps having them ask to have the bird transferred
> to their facility? Maybe not feasable, I just don't know. I know they do get
> shuttled around this area between facilities sometimes.


Hi fp, Yes, I think sanctuaries are very wary about releasing birds to strangers but would be much happier about sending them to another sanctuary. I remember when Dee told her local sanctuary that she would be sending her rescue, Baby, to us they warned her to be suspicious about our intentions. But once they met John and talked to him they asked if we could take 4 of their own unreleasables as well, which we did (that is where Elvis and Cilla came from together with Aaron and Reg). I told the lady at the Gower Hospital about our feral pigeon rescues and how they express their natural behaviour in an aviary, unlike adult wild collared doves and wood pigeons. I also told her that Hillside, which has an excellent reputation nationwide, has an aviary for feral pigeons.

There is new legislation about that requires sanctuaries to allow animals to be with their own species and to express their natural behaviour and I think this is why they are reluctant to release them to individuals.

Cynthia


----------



## feralpigeon

cyro51 said:


> ......
> 
> There is new legislation about that requires sanctuaries to allow animals to be with their own species and to express their natural behaviour and I think this is why they are reluctant to release them to individuals.
> 
> Cynthia


This is interesting wording w/built in protections resulting....

Chriss, that's good news, hope all goes well this weekend coming up.

fp


----------



## chriss80

So we talked to them today and they said anytime we want too in any day of the weekend. We will be there tomorrow at 2 to get the piggi.


----------



## feralpigeon

chriss80 said:


> So we talked to them today and they said anytime we want too in any day of the weekend. We will be there tomorrow at 2 to get the piggi.


Wonderful news, glad all is going well.

fp


----------



## chriss80

I got the pigeon home today. His crop is completely empty and I hand feed him a bit, he is also very skinny. He is very alert and I let him walk around the place and he tried to fly around but his wing is holding him back. Now is in a dark room so he can relax. When we went to pick him up we wore given the speech again about wild animals but also about the fact that because he is feral type he is somehow on neutral ground. The boy that was there said they realised him to us because we did not sign for him when we left him there and also because of the lady that called and talked for us otherwise their policy is different. I believe they should make they point more clearer on they web page. We wore not given any file not even to take a look at about what they have given to him while he was and what they have done to him. He told me they don’t care about people pets. I did told him that he is a wild bird but he just did not care and said that the pigeon will never recover and he is a pet now and then I asked again for the medical file to look at and he said is nothing to worry about because he has no medicine continuation. I asked within 3 different occasions in our conversation about the pigeon medical file and information’s and he did not clarified anything. I told him that I want to take the bird to a vet and I need to know what to tell him and all I got is that if I do that the vet can contact them directly and they will tell him. On top of that we wore given some piece of paper about the fact that if I give the bird to someone else and something goes wrong I can be prosecuted and all this was done so I can hand over the pigeon back so he can be put to sleep. He also said that the pigeon MIGHT carry something and could make other birds ill so is he actually suggesting that the bird carries something, he knows something I don’t?. I managed to keep my calm and I went out of there as fast as I could.


----------



## John_D

I think whoever you were talking to was full of self-importance, officious and knows next to nothing about pigeons and cares even less.

I doubt he knows anything he isn't telling you, and it all sounds like utter rubbish, especially the stuff about being prosecuted.

John


----------



## Feefo

Hi Chris,

You have the bird back and that is what matters.

When I spoke to the hospital I was told that the pigeon can't extend its right wing, there is no fracture, they were treating it with anti-inflammatories. When I asked it could be paratyphoid or streptococcus bovis they said it was a possibilty, but the symptoms they were seeing were not typical (or words to that effect). Maybe they wouldn't take their investigations further because they had decided that if they were going to hand it over to you they classified it as a pet, not a wild animal, so would not use their resources.


> On top of that we wore given some piece of paper about the fact that if I give the bird to someone else and something goes wrong I can be prosecuted and all this was done so I can hand over the pigeon back so he can be put to sleep


Can you copy the exact wording of the document? I can't understand why anyone would be so keen to kill a bird, but one of our members used to take pigeons to St Tiggywinkles, who have an excellent reputation. They wouldn't give her any information on what the bird's prospects were until it was signed over to them ...once it had been signed over they said it would be put down and refused to give it back. That seems to be the way that Wildlife Hospitals work, even though in the book by the director of St Tiggywinkles, Les Stoker, he has a paragraph against unnecessary euthanasia and states *" Animals do not have much. The one thing they have is "life" and they will fight tooth and claw to preserve that one thing. If we are caring for the animals then it is our duty to give each patient the chance to keep that life". *He also lists the clear-cut criteria for euthanasia, and it is not recommended for "any unreleasable or disabled wild bird or wild animal". The closest that he comes to this is including "Disabled wood pigeons - wood pigeons never settle to captivity" in the list, which isn't true as our wood pigeons are settled enough to choose a mate, build nests and lay eggs."


Thank you for fighting all the way for this pigeon.

Cynthia


----------



## chriss80

So now I am back to the beginning. I wish there some test kit I could buy and find out it has any of these diseases you mention. I will keep watching the pigeon and update on his behaviour in the next couple of days
His exact words were that I will be prosecuted if I give the bird to someone else and if that person does something wrong and then given this piece of paper about more information. Is a leaflet about where I can see all the details but I did not checked on the recommended website yet. He had so many arguments against us taking the pigeon back.


----------



## chriss80




----------



## John_D

chriss80 said:


> His exact words were that I will be prosecuted if I give the bird to someone else and if that person does something wrong and then given this piece of paper about more information. Is a leaflet about where I can see all the details but I did not checked on the recommended website yet. He had so many arguments against us taking the pigeon back.


I would certainly say that's rubbish. The onus is on the person who is owner or keeper of a bird or animal to see that it is kept in accordance with the Act. If I gave a 'pet' to someone else in good faith and they failed to look after it properly, *they* could be prosecuted, not me. If one took that person's statement to the extreme, it would mean that if a person purchased a pet and failed to look after it, then the pet shop would be prosecuted!

Pigeons fall into a kind of black hole, I believe. Different organizations may class them as wild birds or pet birds to suit their own interpretation of rules and regulations.

John


----------



## Feefo

Hi Chris,



> His exact words were that I will be prosecuted if I give the bird to someone else and if that person does something wrong and then given this piece of paper about more information.


Don't worry about that, it is what I referred to in post 94 and I assured the hospital that all those requirements would be met.

It would be great for the pigeon and for you if you eventually got some company for him, ideally a mate. Pigeons are flock birds and although they will often see their human owners as members of their flock it is better for the owner and for them if they can have one or more other pigeons with them for company. Then you don't have to worry about leaving them alone.



> He had so many arguments against us taking the pigeon back.


I am certain that he meant well, but he obviously didn't have as much experience of pigeons as we have. You were very strong to resist his arguments.



> So now I am back to the beginning. I wish there some test kit I could buy and find out it has any of these diseases you mention.


We all wish we had that! But they didn't think it was either of those diseases. I have two birds (a wood pigeon and a collared dove) that can't stretch either of their wings, as a result of this they fall on their backs and can't get up again if they panic, they are fine otherwise. Just keep him under observation for the time being and let us know if he develops any new symptoms.

Cynthia


----------



## chriss80

My thoughts exactly! They make me think of PETA, they for example believe that all animals should be free which is not bad thought but they think that otherwise should all be euthanised. 



John_D said:


> I would certainly say that's rubbish. The onus is on the person who is owner or keeper of a bird or animal to see that it is kept in accordance with the Act. If I gave a 'pet' to someone else in good faith and they failed to look after it properly, *they* could be prosecuted, not me. If one took that person's statement to the extreme, it would mean that if a person purchased a pet and failed to look after it, then the pet shop would be prosecuted!
> 
> Pigeons fall into a kind of black hole, I believe. Different organizations may class them as wild birds or pet birds to suit their own interpretation of rules and regulations.
> 
> John


----------



## chriss80

Cyntia


I am not goanna leave this pigeon without a mate if he stays with me and I will get a few more pigeons for company. I just want to makes sure he is not having something that could be passed on to other birds.

I wish he cold speck and tell us what is wrong.

Thank you for the support!


----------



## Feefo

> I just want to makes sure he is not having something that could be passed on to other birds.


That is very wise! You can have blood tests done for paratyphoid, but they cost about £80. However if you excluded paratyphoid then you could have it treated with synulox for the possibility of streptococcus bovis without doing any harm. In the UK the vets will usually treat an infected animal with synulox and then transfer to Baytril if that doesn't work. I found out to my cost that sending samoples to the lab for testing for an unnamed . unknown or unlikely infection doesnt seem to turn up anything. 

One of our rescuers in Devon has pigeons that she is trying to rehome, I am pretty certain that they are disabled. Maybe she can eventually provide friends.

When you build your aviary do everything that you can to exclude rats, there have been a lot of them in the UK this year, I think it is because so many people are completely renovating the houses that they buy and are opening up the drains when they do so. We put up an extension with a shed for shelter just over a year ago, it was placed on a base of very solid City Council paving stones which were surrounded by cement. I stapled the best quality aviary wire to the sehd and walls of the shed. Today I found the rats had managed to break through the concrete and were burrowing under the shed. It is a great comfort to know that they won't be able to get in.

Cynthia


----------



## feralpigeon

Glad to hear that you have your rescued pigeon back in the safety of your
home. Agreed that the fellow at the facility was trying to rattle your cage
w/empty threats for making them handle this case by being true to their own agreement w/you. You did well to get them to agree in advance to returning
the bird to you and you did exceptionally well following up on the progress of 
the pigeon and bringing the bird home. 

fp


----------



## chriss80

I have to take him to the vet and see what it says. I see the test does not offer much unless I am looking for something in particular which is quite sad considering all the modern technology. I have now only £70 for the doctor until the end of the month and that will not probably take me long, hopefully for a consultation and a prescription. I will call tomorrow and find out if there is someone that knows about birds , there are at 2 places to call in my town. 

I know what you mean about rats, I have some huge ones outside lurking in my garden since an old big building near me was demolished, hopefully the majority of them will disappear in time before I get to build an aviary.





cyro51 said:


> That is very wise! You can have blood tests done for paratyphoid, but they cost about £80. However if you excluded paratyphoid then you could have it treated with synulox for the possibility of streptococcus bovis without doing any harm. In the UK the vets will usually treat an infected animal with synulox and then transfer to Baytril if that doesn't work. I found out to my cost that sending samoples to the lab for testing for an unnamed . unknown or unlikely infection doesnt seem to turn up anything.
> 
> One of our rescuers in Devon has pigeons that she is trying to rehome, I am pretty certain that they are disabled. Maybe she can eventually provide friends.
> 
> When you build your aviary do everything that you can to exclude rats, there have been a lot of them in the UK this year, I think it is because so many people are completely renovating the houses that they buy and are opening up the drains when they do so. We put up an extension with a shed for shelter just over a year ago, it was placed on a base of very solid City Council paving stones which were surrounded by cement. I stapled the best quality aviary wire to the sehd and walls of the shed. Today I found the rats had managed to break through the concrete and were burrowing under the shed. It is a great comfort to know that they won't be able to get in.
> 
> Cynthia


----------



## chriss80

I am so glad he is back and now he is settling back in.



feralpigeon said:


> Glad to hear that you have your rescued pigeon back in the safety of your
> home. Agreed that the fellow at the facility was trying to rattle your cage
> w/empty threats for making them handle this case by being true to their own agreement w/you. You did well to get them to agree in advance to returning
> the bird to you and you did exceptionally well following up on the progress of
> the pigeon and bringing the bird home.
> 
> fp


----------



## chriss80

Piggi update.

The pigeon is more relaxed now. When I got him home from them he was really freaked out and did not know where to run, I do not think he had any interaction with anything while he was there. Now he has settled in and he knows his way around again. He is still not eating and his droppings are a bit on the green side. When I gave him that medication and before I sent him to the Gower Bird sanctuary the green colour almost disappear but I see since he is back home has appeared again. His wing is still dropped sometimes and still not eating. When I show him the food it just looks at it. I leave the food with him and he did not even pecked at it by himself. He only drinks water by himself. Sometimes I sit on the distance and I throw seeds near him and he reacts a little, he packs at a few seeds but he does not swallow them and then he just looses interest. He is noticeably thinner but I am hand feeding with about 60% peanuts and black sunflower because they are easy to put them in his beak and more fattening then small ones, he does not let me do that straight away. I am goanna get some whole corn too. He is pretty much in the same situation as before.


----------



## chriss80

I made an appointment for a consolation of piggi for today. The person on the phone she has no problem because is a pigeon from the street. The consultation is £14 which is not bad. I will update haw all went on later on.


----------



## chriss80

The doctor meeting went well. I explained all the symptoms and the story behind him. She told me is hard to treat a pigeon, she said that she feels no broken wing or bad joint and she prescribed Baytril 2 times a day with a syringe 0.1ml for 10 days. All I paid is 3 pounds and 25 pence and they wanted no other money for consultation. I am going to start giving him the medicine tonight after I feed him.


----------



## Feefo

Hi Chris,

That is a good and compasionate vet.

Cynthia


----------



## chriss80

Yup, We met a great person!


----------



## feralpigeon

chriss80 said:


> The doctor meeting went well. I explained all the symptoms and the story behind him. She told me is hard to treat a pigeon, she said that she feels no broken wing or bad joint and she prescribed Baytril 2 times a day with a syringe 0.1ml for 10 days. All I paid is 3 pounds and 25 pence and they wanted no other money for consultation. I am going to start giving him the medicine tonight after I feed him.



Chriss80, sounds like your consultation went very well and that you have
made some inroads in terms of finding help in the professional community in 
your area. Glad that she did put the bird on Baytril, in lieu of running a tab
up on diagnostics when unfamiliar w/pigeons, this is a good middle road to 
take. I know that you will get the droppings back to normal, w/a little time
and some nurturing for this pigeon that you have shown so much compassion
towards. If the bird needs some seed pops or other assistance w/feedings, I can see from some of your posts that you will be able to help
with this. Please keep us updated.

fp


----------



## chriss80

Cold someone please tell what is a good room temperature for this pigeon?


----------



## chriss80

The pigeon is not still not eating and I am still force feeding him and that worries me. I had once 2 baby pigeon that I hand feed for 2 weeks and it was so simple with them. This pigeon is nothing like them. The moment I go near his beak he will shake his head off my hand and he does it strongly. Sometimes he does not even need to be wrapped in a towel because he is so calm and he won’t try to escape. I tried in so many ways to open his mouth and no matter what I do he shakes his head off my hand. If I do not put the seed far enough he will shake it off and it goes meters away. With the small seeds he uses his tongue in a backwards type of way to get them all out, even if is only one small seed. This happens with every seed I give him and is the point on which his head can’t be controlled. I am just worried I am goanna hurt him. I mean there are so many videos on the Internet where pigeons do not react like this. He has been hand feed for so long and he still puts loads of resistance. I am petrified the pigeon is going get hurt. I will go back to the doctor and learn haw to use one of those tubes that goes straight to his crop. I don’t think this is goanna be easy either because when I try to give him the medicine with syringe is worst, he shakes his entire body. I think all this happeneds either because he is a mature pigeon or due to his condition, maybe a bit of both. I gave him enough food for tonight and he will be well until tomorrow. I am open to any suggestions. Feels like such a nightmare not to mention for the poor bird haw bad this must be.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Chriss, sometimes they can be stubborn about eating on their own.

This is a link to Cynthia's video about tube feeding a pigeon. It is really good plus you get the added bonus of hearing her lovely voice.  

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU&mode=user&search=


----------



## chriss80

Wow I sow that and that pigeon is a saint and her videos are great. The pigeon in the video tries to move his head off there a bit but he behaving so well otherwise. My pigeon is… I don’t know haw to put other then violent and he does that on my every attempt. When I open his mouth and put the seed in I am worried because he shakes his head too strongly, is like he has no limit when it comes to fighting me off. I do hope the vet can do it better; I just won’t have peace of mind until I find other solution. I realise that me feeding him is the only thing keeping him alive and I am not goanna give up on this bird.



Lady Tarheel said:


> Chriss, sometimes they can be stubborn about eating on their own.
> 
> This is a link to Cynthia's video about tube feeding a pigeon. It is really good plus you get the added bonus of hearing her lovely voice.
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU&mode=user&search=


----------



## Feefo

Hi Chris,

Can you e-mail me your address again? I have a product called Poly Aid (to stop sick birds from starving) I can send you. St Tiggywinkles uses it for pigeons that can't or won't eat and say that it meets all the bird's nutritional needs. 

As long as he is drinking that will keep him alive. If you scroll down the link below you will find information on how to use Polyaid.

When I have a pigeon that should be able to eat on its own and there is no particular reason not to, I leave it with water and really attractive food like hemp. If it hasn't eaten by the end of the day I top it up with Poly Aid. So far this has worked.

THis is a link to the company that supplies it. They also have a product vcalled "Potent Brew" which is good for slow crop, but I don't have any of that at the moment, as far as I remember it is expensive and has a short life..

http://www.birdcareco.com/English/Arts/Health%20arts/Sick/Birds.html

Preening is a good sign.

Cynthia


----------



## chriss80

Hell Cynthia!

Thank you for the link is so useful and I am going to order the Poly-Aid and Potent Brew myself and I hope it does not take them to long to deliver them. I made a new appointment to the doctor at 3 for today so they might have hopefully some products available. I will come back with the details soon haw it went. 
The pigeon does not touch any of the food I let for him. He even has some sweet biscuits and sweet bread, I heard that pigeon love sweet things and still nothing. I have not seen any hemp seeds at the pet shop but I will try to get some ware else since they are so tempting for pigeons. They have such boring range of foods like fat balls and wild birds seed mix and peanuts. I have been looking around for while for whole corn and something so simple should be easily available but strangely is not.
I put the water in front of him and he will drink about 5 times a day, I leave the water with him but I don’t know if he drinks any behind my back.
He is preening during the day, starches his wings and legs, gives himself a good shake, and flaps his wings a few times. . This is his daily routine and it is good seeing him doing that like other pigeons do outside. Now he won’t stay or sleep anymore inside the box I made for him anymore he sleeps on top to of it.


----------



## chriss80

I came back from the vet and went all good. She must really love pigeons because we did not get charged anything. We wore thought a new technique to feed him that works better. It needs 2 people. One person holds him from the front around his crop with one hand and the other it holds his neck slightly up with 2 fingers coming from the back while I put seeds down his throat so he can not shake his head off. He is basically better immobilised. She thought he is funny because he makes this funny threatening sounds when people try to touch him and then peeks the hands and sounds more like a dog or a pig then a pigeon.


----------



## chriss80

The new method has been put in practice and works so much better.


----------



## chriss80

Piggi now stays on top of a tall wardrobe where he flays by going halfway on a chair. I put a bit of water and a tiny bit of vinegar in the bath and with a damp cloth had to clean some green stains on his wings, legs, tail from his dropping and most of the stains came off. When I reached for the towel he took advantage of the situation and he started splashing and fluffing around, I am glad he did not hated the event completely. 

I temporarily put under my supervision a halogen radiator to make the room warm but he decided to dry his feathers and groom at a couple of meters in front of it until he got dry and up he went on the wardrobe, his flaying is not perfect but it has improved. 

I am cleaning around where he stays everyday and sterilize his feeding and water dishes with bleach. I wish I could get all the green staining off him but I don’t know what to use other then water and a few drops of vinegar since other thing cold be toxic like soap. Maybe the next bath the rest will come off.


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## chriss80

Oh and he has put on a bit of weight. Before I gave him food today on an empty crop he is 388. When I found him he was 359 grams


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## Feefo

That is a good weight!

Pigeons really love their baths, the green stains will soon disappear.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Not much change has happened since my last update except that he is defiantly smarten then us, the new technique of feeding him does not work anymore because he found ways to trick us and squeeze out of our hands. Now I am back to wrapping him in a towel, he seems to have forgotten haw fighting me off there works…for now. I just have to be one step ahead of him. He still protests heavily about the force feeding.The baytril treatment continues.


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## Pidgey

How much are you feeding Piggi per day? It sounds like it might be time to let him get a little hungry and then start trying to teach him to peck for himself.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

I am feeding him once a day. When the feeding time comes and his crop is empty he won’t eat anything. Only if I insist and throw food near him he will peck it slightly and as usually will not swallow and loose interest. I do try to teach him and encourage him to eat. I touch his beck slightly and then show him the food at which he will peck for example. I don’t even think he drinks water by himself. I have to put it in front of him so he can drink. I leave him all by himself with the food near him and still nothing. He feels fatter now, that bone underneath him is less pointy, he has defiantly put some fat there. I ran out of ideas.


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## Pidgey

Have you got a styrofoam or paper cup that you can measure out exactly one kitchen measuring cup's worth of water in and then weigh it on the same scales that you're using to measure the bird? An 8-ounce cup of water should weigh about 240 grams plus whatever the cup weighs. You do this in order to check your scale. The deal is, that's a pretty good weight for a pigeon (unless it's a homer or some other really large variety) so it'd be good to check the scale.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Yes I have also a good measuring scale. I will measure it and see haw it goes


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## chriss80

I think is something wrong with him. Since this afternoon he seems to not poo so often and when it does it is a very big poop. It hasn’t done this until today. The only thing I have done different is that I got some whole corn and feed him with it this afternoon. Cold corn do this to him? Most of the corn has already left his crop. I don’t think is anything wrong with the corn product itself, it looks like normal whole corn to me from a good source. This is defiantly not good for him. Otherwise he seems allright.


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## Pidgey

Hens will usually poop a lot bigger and less often than males but mostly when they're sitting on nests. 

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Well what worries me is that this never happened until today. I know I cannot be sure exactly about the gender of this pigeon and I have been wrong in the past but it seems a male. He puffs up his neck and is very territorial; if I come near his place I get pecked. And he has no nest, I brought him twigs and some grass lately but he does not care for it.


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## Pidgey

I'm probably more pointing out that their poop changes, depending. There are some types that you see where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're sick and then there are other changes that don't mean anything. When they've been sick and are getting better, it's kinda' hard to tell what normal is for that bird.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

I am probably way too concerned, I will keep an eye on Piggi and see haw it goes and update.


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## Feefo

Hi Chris,

How big is big? Is it smelly? Is it firm or runny? Has the colour changed?


Quite often my rescues do frequent tiny poops, but they get bigger when they feel better.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Is not smelly or runny at all. It is just about 4 times bigger and with the same colour. Overy night and this morning I noticed that it seems to get back to normal. Some are still big but some are the normal usual size.


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## Feefo

It doesn't sound like anything to worry about.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Well tomorrow his Baytril 10 days treatment come to an end, I think I should keep him on the baytril for a few more days. I checked if he drinks water all by himself and he does not even touches it for certain. Still not eating but he is flaying very well.


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## chriss80

I gave him the baytril 2.5% for 14 days until now, 2 times a day 0.1ml. I will stop giving it to him. Should I stop giving it to him or shall a continue for a bit longer? He is still not eating but his wing and his flying is good.


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## Pidgey

How much are you feeding this little guy per day now? He might not be interested in food because he's getting plenty the other way. It certainly sounds like his behaviour is such that you don't need to worry so much anymore as to whether he's going to make it or not. It might be time to start feeding him less and showing him how to eat more.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

I don’t know exactly haw many grams his food weights and would be hard to count because so much of it is thrown away around. I am feeding him once in 24 hours, and his crop empties completely until is time to eat. He did have put on weight a lot it feels to me comparing to haw it was when he arrived. The most he stayed without food was 34 hours and he did not eat anything only dinked water. Should I leave him for longer without food? I put him out in a cage so he can see other pigeons eating, the other pigeons after they finished eating the food around his cage put their heads between the bars in his cage and ate his food too but he just did not care. After the pigeons left he tried to escape the cage too in an desire to fly away with them and become very restless so I had to take him back in his room where he started helicoptering for a few minutes. That happened when I let him without food for 34 hours. I am goanna repeat this procedure because he enjoy being around other pigeons.


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## chriss80

Oh and I did feed him only a little some weeks ago and I did not worked either. I will try it again maybe works, I got some special food for starving pigeons that Cythia recomened in an early post and some crop tube feeders and I am waitting for them to arrive.


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## Pidgey

Well, he sounds like his attitude is just fine if he's playing around flying for fun. That said, you may have to get him hungry and then put the bowl of food in front of it and start pecking with your finger or a pencil (something that resembles a parents' beak). It may take a couple of days for him to get to the point where he's hungry enough to start taking the training serious.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Well today I only feed him about 30% from what I usually do, he drank more water today then usually and filled his crop with water. I believe he was quite hungry, I notice that when he has no food in his crop or very little he tends to swallow and look at me. Tomorrow I am going to feed him a little too at the end of the day and encourage him to eat and also let him in the garden to watch other pigeons eat around him. I am goanna do for a couple of days and see haw it goes. Since I started putting him in the garden so he can interact with other pigeons he has been peeking my hands more often and he also made some new pigeon sounds that I have never heard him making them before, when I bring him in the house after he sow other pigeons he make this long cooing noises cooo coooooooo cooooooooooo ooooooooo oooooooo. I only heard noises like that late night when pigeons are in the loft or when they are calling each others.


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## chriss80

The vetark people are fast, the crop tube and the syringes have arrived, now I am waiting for the Poly-Aid that should arrive soon too, I got the fastest shipping available. The pigeon has a weight of 405 grams right now. Today I put the cage in the garden so he watches the other pigeons eat and he pecked at his food way more then usual but he did not swallowed it but at least he tried more. Today he danced around and cooed at the other pigeons.


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## Pidgey

405? That's certainly not underweight. Wanna' test what you're weighing him with? If you've got a styrofoam or paper cup that'll hold one kitchen measuring cup's worth of water (8 ounces), then it should read about 240 grams.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Well is great to know he is not underweight, I think is a positive thing now since I am goanna feed him very little for a few days and he has enough body fat to keep him going.


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## Feefo

Hi Chris,

I am baffled as to why a pigeon will prefer to be hand fed than to feed itself, but it happens so often. The first time I heard about it was when raynjudy posted about their pigeon that had been handfed for two years! Eventually they got it back to self feeding. I hope it doesn't take you that longto wean yours!


Cynthia


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## chriss80

Well he ate no food today either. I gave him some Poly-Aid tonight after a long day without food and being fed very little in the past 2 days. When I show him the food he looks at me and looks at the food and so on, he is surrounded by food and it should be a pigeon heaven.


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## chriss80

When I put him in the cage in the garden with the other pigeons around he starts dancing and cooing around and all the female pigeons come down. Then the other male pigeon get jealous and start dancing too and some of the female pigeons go back up to them. What is even cuter that is that his mate is still hanging around him, she flays away with all the pigeons when they leave but she is shortly back to him. He then displays for her only and she watches for a while. 
I started feeding him a good amount back again. He just did not want to start eating.


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## feralpigeon

Thanks for your update, Chriss80, perhaps in time he will start to become more
interested in self-feeding. Have you felt his crop to make sure that he isn't 
taking some seed in there on the sly?  

fp


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## chriss80

I do felt his crop and I felt nothing. They could of been very small seeds though.


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## feralpigeon

chriss80 said:


> I do felt his crop and I felt nothing. They could of been very small seeds though.



Well, it's good that you are checking the crop and likewise good that
you are making sure that food gets down the hatch....

fp


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## chriss80

My piggi still has green poops slightly, I notice that colour and texture change from time to time depending on what he eats and so on. I am not sure that they should be on the green side, he does not eat anything green.
I am feeding him now daily Kaytee exact formula and about 30% also mixture peanuts, sunflower seeds and corn. I could feed him only kaytee exact but I think as a mature pigeon he needs some hard seeds in his crop too. I cannot feed him only seeds and the proper amount of seeds all the time because he won’t let me do so I thought Kaytee would compensate with the nutrients he needs.
He still tries to eat his food everyday but he won’t swallow his seeds. 
He shows no other sign of illness and he can fly perfectly.
I take him out everyday now around an hour time to the other pigeons outside and from his cage he will cooooomunicate with them.


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## Pidgey

My guess is that you've spoiled that bird. That's not allowed here--nobody, and I mean nobody, on this forum would EVER spoil a bird like that. In fact, I'm going to alert...

...excuse me for a sec... Morty wants more safflower seeds...BRB

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

LOL Pidgey!!!!!


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## chriss80

Ok, I got it all figured out. He suffers from anorexia! This must be it.


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## chriss80

Piggi still not eating by himself but he sure is pecking a lot at the food lately. He is digging at the seeds and spreads them around, is like he is looking for something that is hiding at the bottom of the pot or he is looking for something in particular. 
I brought him in the living room lately so I can keep an eye on him. He stays on top of the bookcase and I noticed that when he flaps his wings around, sometimes, not all the times that the wing where the problem was is moving slightly less then the other, his flight seems perfect though. He pecks also at all kind of objects around the house, I don’t know why. 
One thing I started to notice is some lines on his beck, some go away some appear, I believe is something to with his peeking around at things and also with the fact that all this hand feeding him does him no good, I don’t feel like I am putting any pressure on his beck. This bird really got to start eating for himself; he just can’t go on like this. I will keep him on Kaytee Exact formula only from now on only because is easy to feed and does not puts any pressure on his beack. 
I also have kept him hungry again in the past days with the seeds, water in front of him and grit but he did not swallowed any seeds only drinke water. I have let him without food for a day and then feed him only 10ml of Kayte for another few days and that did not got him eating either, so basically I have keep him feeling really hungry. Keeping him hungry for a few days makes me feel so bad because he goes all puffed up and does not waste any of his energy, looks ill and I don’t think I can try this again. I feel pity for him seeing him all puffed up. 
We have left him alone and tried not get him tame in case he will become independent and want to fly away but he has lost the fear of us, especially me because I am the one that feeds him mostly.
I thought Piggi does not really like me because he bites me and I handle him and wrap him in a towel to be force-fed him but one day I left him on the floor to peek at some seeds around. I was in front of the computer. After he got bored of the seeds he flies on top of the bookcase, but this time instead of fling on the bookcase as usual he flew in the total opposite direction and on top of my monitor and he was looking curiously at me. I got a few seeds and put them in front of him at which he peeked and threw them in my face . Ok , so he knows haw the things are done, I think he wanted me to for feed me. 
I wander if he carries any disease that could be passed to other pigeons, I will have to find out on the long term in case I adopt another pigon in need for his company. His mate is outside and looks very healthy and eats loads.


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## goulian

Hi Everyone.

I once found an adult pigeon who was injured somehow, but no injury was noticeable. He would not eat anything at all until I tried Delmontes Whole Kernal canned corn. I drained off the water and he ate nothing else but that for the two and a half weeks it took for him to recover and fly away home. It can't hurt for you to try it. Who knows? Good luck. You have made a great effort on behalf of that pigeon. Keep it up. Take care.

Mike


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## chriss80

Ill give it a try! I put near him a small piece of everything I eat to tempt him. He does peck at them but he won’t swallow, makes me think there is something out there to corrupt him with


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## Feefo

Hi Chris,

If you want to corrupt him try hemp! They really love it but it is a pigeon aphrodisiac.

I suspect that the real reason that he is being coy about eating is that he knows you will release him and he wants to stay safe with you.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Piggi is not eating yet anything, I tried the hemp seeds but he is resisting them. Now he spends the daytime observing us in the living room on top of a tall bookcase and he has come around slightly, he is curious and watches us, he acts like we are his flock and he makes all kind of coos at us. Every time we eat he tries to eat his seeds too. He is he very territorial when it comes to his favourite places and he attacks Mister Penguin toy especially if I put him near the water or the food. He exercises his wings many times a day helicopetring around, I sometimes notice that that wing is still a bit lazy. Lets say out of every 8 times/sessions he helicopters around once he will have the lazy wing once, just slightly, is hardly noticeable. He can fly very well thought.He does not show any other signs of illness, he looks and acts like a normal pigeon.


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## pdpbison

Hi chriss80, 



I have seen it quite a few times, that the subtle co-ordination, or neurology, for pecking, can be compromised from illness or injury...


These Pigeons then can indeed take days, weeks, or even months to be able to eat reliably on their own.


Now, is yours a young Pigeon?


Is his upper beak at all longer at the tip, than the lower one?


Does he 'Nuzzle' at all if you gently grasp his beak?


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

Hello pdpbison

This pigeon is at least 2 years old this pigeon, not many red pigeons around my area so I distinguish them.
He does not seem to be in pain with his beck at all. He uses his beak to peck at many things, is like he tastes things, not only food but also the things surrounding him like the towel, the newspaper or the furniture, he just pecks at things without being angry. Sometimes he uses his beak to arrange his towel where he stays. And he makes no sound when I touch his beak where the throat starts is a spot that if I touch it he will swallow..
I think he think that when he does all that pecking at the food he thinks he swallowed it and got full. 
I am uploading some pictures of his beak. His beak seems like any other pigeon beak to me.


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## chriss80

pictures from the bouth angles


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## Pidgey

Looks completely normal to me.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

> Looks completely normal to me.


And to me! Actually, he looks as if he knows he is on to a good thing! Are you absolutely certain that he isn't swallowing anything? Have you tried the peanut test? (you put down something like 5 peanuts and leave the room, see if he eats any).

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Yes, I counted the seeds in front of him and none was gone, evan when I starved him for a day he still wouldn’t a eat thing. What I do is soak bread in all kinds of food so when he pecks at the bread he gets the taste of the food too. He does not seem to swallow any but keeps pecking at it until is all spread around the room, I think he does it for the flavour, he seems to like feeling the flavoure of things.


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## pdpbison

Hi chrisso80,



Oh..! such a beautiful face...! Lovely perfect Beak...yup, looks like all is well there...


I dunno...


What I tend to do, is have them on my lap, on a towell...and a little Bowl of seeds on my thigh...and, I 'peck' with my index finger, and, sort of work with them...

Small Seeds are best with ones having these troubles...Canary Seed or Finch Seed...

Some will 'gobble' if one gently hold their Beak from the sides, and have it all the way 'in' a small deep bowl or Shot-Glass of small size Seeds...keeping one's finger tips on their beak sides...and this then can lead them to being able to peck again to where they get the Seeds instead of merely scattering them.

Seed-Pops similarly, where, lightly wrapping the pigeon in a small soft Towell or Paper towells, so he or she is a sort of 'Burrito'...spigotting him upright between one's thighs as one sits, and opening their Beak, or, in some cases, stimulating them so they open their Beak...and one can 'Pop' a Seed in then for them to swallow...and this also, not only tides them over during their periond of incoordinations, but, can contribute somehow to their being able to peck again.

I have one right now who will 'Gape' for Seed-Pops if I have his Beak between and sticking out through the middles of my straight fingers, so the root area of his mouth is contacting them...

He is eating on his own now, but we did that for several days, and till now, he was not able to peck and get anything...


So, you could try some of these things...


Sure is a pretty Pigeon..! Such a lovely face...



Phil
l v


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## Feefo

Hi Cristina,

This is just a passing thought but the mysterious wing malfunction and the tasting and rejecting of seeds is beginning to sound like a mild case of PMV, though I would think that if it was the Gower Hopspital would have recognised used that to put him to sleep (that is what wildlife hospitals are required to do). 

When he tastes his seed and bread does he toss them backward?

This is a video of Surrey, a pigeon that I adopted after he continued to "seed toss" after he survived PMV. His seed tossing is very exaggerated in the video, he is a lot better now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWC58llOBzQ

This is a link to all the symptoms of PMV, some pigeons show a lot of symptoms, some very few:

http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/pmv.htm



Cynthia


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## chriss80

Hello Cynthia

He does not do anything similar like in that video. I will make my own video later on when he will be hungry enough to try to eat. Is just basic grabbing the seed and dropping it back down with no weird move.

One interesting thing to mention is from back when he was outside. His mate is still coming around and she appears well. A few days before he hit the window and feel into my garden I sow him. He was all puffed up, his mate was bugging him a lot and he was not responding, he was sitting there all puffed up while she was trying to kiss him and he was not reacting much at all while she was going all around his neck and face, he was barley turning around to avid her after a while. I thought she was wanting to get him to feed her or some sort of display of affection but was just weird haw he was no responding and she was very pushy. I sow this happening for 2 days in a raw until the 3rd day when he came in the afternoon and he did not moved from the top of the house, she bugged him all day in the same manner, then in the evening he hit my window trying to land, she brought him there because I was giving her food. Now that I think better I think she was trying to feed him, he had in his crop what appear to be sunflowers seeds, she had a taste for them in particular, she would eat the sunflowers seeds until full and leave the other seeds behind. So I think he was not eating by himself for quite a while. I feed her for months before all this but she rarely brought other pigeons with her and he was a rare visitor for a long time like others around, I rarely feed pigeons in my garden because I don’t what to bother the neighbours and some keep coming back from time to time to check things out and I get to keep an eye on them and recognise them, he is about 2 years old, I did not thought she had a mate. Pigeon social skills seem very complicated to me.


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## chriss80

Hello Phil

I am gonna try some of your good ideeas. The pigeon has a matcho attitude and i hope he will put up with me.


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## chriss80

Piggis is camera shy, when I come near him to film him pecking at the seeds he stops. I am not really sure when I am going to manage to show him pecking.


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## chriss80

This is the video. It seems that all the places I tried to upload it they just reduce the quality of my videos considerably, I don’t know why but is most inconvenient. Hope you can see that he is not swallowing any of his seeds. He just pecks at them and drops them back down. He just appears to be eating.

This is sthe link:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4085768223976042226


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## Maggie-NC

It was hard to tell if he swallowed any but you might try some smaller seed. Even though nothing I saw pointed to PMV, the fact that he is two years old means he should be able to swallow seed the size in the bowl, but, try some smaller ones.

He is a lovely pigeon.


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## chriss80

I got this seeds mix he likes I think. It has many hempseeds it. Most of the seeds are small and he is very enthusiastic about them but I am afraid no seed goes missing from the bowl.


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## pdpbison

Hi chriss80,




What are his poops looking like? Color wise, size wise, consistancy wise...?


If you have a light color Towell for the Cage bottom, it will be more comfortable for him, and, easier to see the poops...


I think he is sick...possibly, has some bruised Nerves as well...but lets see if we can get anywhere trying to see if there are any clues or symptoms for the 'might be sick' line of thinking...


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

Hello Phil
I will take the pictures soon; I just need a brighter day for my camera to be able to take the photos accurately and come with a description.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Chriss80, 


Just a good verbal description would be fine...( as for what the poops are looking like these days...)


I get Birds who have been ill or injured and who overall look tolerably alright, but they can not seem to peck effectively for a while.

Nerve injury, Brain injury, illness...somehow the fine co-ordinations for the action of pecking effectively, gets thrown off or interfered with...they 'Peck' and at a glance, it LOOK as if they are eating, but they are not opening their Beaks far enough to get anything, or, if they are, they are not closing their Beaks at the operatively right instant to retain the Seed, or their Tongue is not 'hooking' the Seed to pull it back for being swallowed after their Beak closes on it, when the Beak then in fact opens slightly for their Tongue to hook the Seed and pull it 'back'...and, so, they 'Peck', they scatter their Seeds, and meanwhile, they have actually gotten little to nothing at all in their Crops.


Has he been 'wormed'? 

You could get him on the famous ACV-Water for the next ten days say...


And, do a few rounds of 'Seed Pop' each day, if you are not already...and, if you are not familiar with this proceedure, I'd be glad to run you through it.

Meanwhile, as Maggie mentions, 'Small Seeds' would be best for his Seed Bowl and self-feeding efforts...


Best wishes!


He sure is a handsome fellow..!


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

I do not know exactly what ‘wormed’ is but I have seen in a shop a few days ago a medicine that was for birds and was saying something on it about worms treatment, I was thinking to get it but then I thought that I gave him Baytril for 14 days and he also had 5 days of Synolux treatment and that could of taken care of most of the things. The antibiotics had very good results. They cover quite big range of illnesses.

I want to take him in January to the vet again but she can only prescribe me medicines to try, they deal with pets and no ones comes with pigeons and they do not know much about it.

I provide him with a mixture of seeds of sizes from really small to big peanuts, for some rezone he choose to be more interested in the big ones then the small ones. I keep a mixture, as you never know what might push his button one day.
I do not know what ACV water or where I can find any to buy, a link within UK would be useful. 

Please do tell about the 'Seed Pop'.


Now about his poops. I found out that it all depends what I feed him. I gave him for a short while Kaytee exact with a crop tube but that was not a good idea as it made all his poop watery and terrible looking. I am not surprised as that thing is so watery; anyway I am not giving it to him anymore because of that. Now I am feeding what a pigeons should eat but it kind is difficult to give him the small seeds and he gets a bit too much the big type of seeds like corn, sunflower seeds and peanuts like 50% and with this his poops are of a green colour but not the bight neon type and white. I also have to say that not all his poop looks the same during the day, maybe a couple of times a day will be watery. I feed him once a day now and I notice that at the end of the day his poops are smaller so they differ in size depending of the time of the day. The majority of his poops are of a green shade with white, the green shade is kind hard to describe, is more like an medium green and of a good consistancy.


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## chriss80

I just sow some worms in his poop. I can’ believe I did not sow it before and I looked so many times. I was looking at his poo for a few days more trying to take pictures and I never seen any worms until today just one of his pops had small white worms in it moving, horrible things, shaped from kind round to long, about a quarter of the size of a normal rice grain.
I don’t know what action to take now.
I can reach the doctor on Friday with the pigeon.


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## chriss80

I am looking around at what type of worms these could be but I do not find picture of haw they should look like exactly. They talk about worm eggs but I don’t think that worm eggs move, or maybe they do?
My Piggi has not lost any weight!


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## Maggie-NC

Chris, do they look at all like this? These are round worms.


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## chriss80

Hello Lady Tarheel !

They don’t look like that at all! Oh boy those are even creepier!


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## chriss80

I drown a picture of haw it was, the green part is the poop and the white spots represent the worms. I tried to make things at the right size and color. The poo was a normal size I would say.


----------



## pdpbison

chriss80 said:


> I do not know exactly what ‘wormed’ is but I have seen in a shop a few days ago a medicine that was for birds and was saying something on it about worms treatment, I was thinking to get it but then I thought that I gave him Baytril for 14 days and he also had 5 days of Synolux treatment and that could of taken care of most of the things. The antibiotics had very good results. They cover quite big range of illnesses.



Hi chriss80, 



The Antibiotics or other medicines used for treating illness, will not effect a cleansing or rejection of Intestional Parasites, or, broadly, 'Worms'...for which some fairly specific Medicines are necessary, and thee medicines are only for this usually.

Others may advise as to what brands or kinds to get, and, they should be available on-line where you could get them Mail Order.






> I want to take him in January to the vet again but she can only prescribe me medicines to try, they deal with pets and no ones comes with pigeons and they do not know much about it.
> 
> I provide him with a mixture of seeds of sizes from really small to big peanuts, for some rezone he choose to be more interested in the big ones then the small ones. I keep a mixture, as you never know what might push his button one day.



Your Vet may be able to prescribe a "Worm' medicine...and others here I hope will advise as to kind and dose, just to have a good cross-reference for whatever your Vet says.


I would say to not allow him any Peanuts anymore...( just trust me, but, if you want an explaination, 'reasons', happy to provide...)


Probably too, his normal digestive system 'flora and fauna' have been compromised or obliterated form the courses of Antibiotics, and it would be good to allow him some supliments of 'Pro Biotics' and their kin, to help remedy this...but I would do the ACV-Water for ten days first...and then think about Pro-Biotics...



> I do not know what ACV water or where I can find any to buy, a link within UK would be useful.



"ACV-Water" is something one makes one's self, and it is very easy, and, is a valuable aid for Pigeons' Health and for them getting clear of ambiguous troubles of digestion and other things - 


It is simply 'raw' Apple Cider Vinegar, and, plain good quality Water.


For routine and not-clinical situations, one adds say Two Tablespoons of the ACV to a Gallon of Water, and this then is the Pigeon's drinking Water for a week or something, now and then.


For Therapudic or Clinical intentions, one mixes it stronger, say, Four Tablespoons of the ACV to a Gallon of Water...and this then is the Pigeon's drinking Water for a week or ten days or so...

It eliminates many undesireable bacteria and other micro-organisms from their Crop and digestive system, while encouraging the desireable ones.


Likely, your Bird has some issues with his digestive system, and, the ACV-Water at 3 or 4 Tablespoons to the Gallon, I am confident, would be good for him.



> Please do tell about the 'Seed Pop'.



'Seed-Pops' are the term for opening the Pigeon's Beak gently, and, inserting a single whole Seed, such a a dried small kernal of Corn, or a dried Pea, or maybe two or three White Safflower Seeds...and, his swallowing it.


Variously, this can be done quite effeciently, and, over the course of five or ten minutes, or a half hour, allows a convelesent or compromised Pigeon, a few good meals-a-day of real Seeds, which they otherwise would not manage to get on their own steam. The benifts them ( so long as their system can handle it ) viscerotonically, getting their Gizzard nice and active with something to do, and can inspire them generally...as well as solving the problem of them getting fed.


More details on this later, since this is getting to be a long post!




> Now about his poops. I found out that it all depends what I feed him. I gave him for a short while Kaytee exact with a crop tube but that was not a good idea as it made all his poop watery and terrible looking. I am not surprised as that thing is so watery; anyway I am not giving it to him anymore because of that. Now I am feeding what a pigeons should eat but it kind is difficult to give him the small seeds and he gets a bit too much the big type of seeds like corn, sunflower seeds and peanuts like 50% and with this his poops are of a green colour but not the bight neon type and white. I also have to say that not all his poop looks the same during the day, maybe a couple of times a day will be watery. I feed him once a day now and I notice that at the end of the day his poops are smaller so they differ in size depending of the time of the day. The majority of his poops are of a green shade with white, the green shade is kind hard to describe, is more like an medium green and of a good consistancy.




I would say definitely get him on the ACV-Water...and, there is an other method of getting them to eat which I will describe soon...where he would be eating small whole Seeds, such as Finch Seed or Parakeet Seed...so if you have some place to buy a small whole Seed mix, figure to go get some soon as possible.

Till next..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

chriss80 said:


> I drown a picture of haw it was, the green part is the poop and the white spots represent the worms. I tried to make things at the right size and color. The poo was a normal size I would say.




Are you certain these are actual tiny 'worms' then?


Not some odd presentation of Urates? ( white part ) 


Well, by golly, if these are 'Worms' then he will be very glad to be rid of them, we may be sure!


Worms make toxic by products which poison the Bird's system, or some do anyway, as well as robbing the Bird of needed Vitamines and Nutrition generally...so...maybe refrigerate some samples in thin plastic film, to bring to your Vet, and do figure to go see your Vet about this issue as soon as convenient.


Feed info next missive...gotta run now...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

Hello Phil!

I will stop the peanuts. Now that you remained me of peanuts I remembered what I sow a few days ago at the pet store: I sow that they wore selling peanuts and they wore in this transparent bag and I could see a few worms wiggling around, luckily I never bought food from them. I will make a complaint for the shop, unfortunaly is the only shop in my area and now it has a bad reputation for me to shop from.

I will do the ACV water stronger, I did the acv water for him but that was long time ago when he had slow crop and worked well.

The 'Seed-Pops' I am goanna try. You see he will bite and fight me when it comes to being handled but sometimes when he is in a good mood he will peck food nicely from my hands. I already have the seeds you mentioned.


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## pdpbison

hi chriss80, 



You could try this, and he might like it - 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=24110


You can 'peck' with him with your crook'd index finger...



Anyway, see about getting him to that Vet, and, bringing some kept-in-the-frige poop-samples for the Vet to examine under the Microscope...and get a definitive evaluaiton on whether he has 'worms' or not...

Get right on that if you can...

Worms can literally kill them when bad enough, and when medium 'bad' are still a very serious drain on their system, and in many cases are also making toxins which sicken the Bird...so, not so good...




Anyway, seeing little Worms in Peanuts is not a bad thing, it happens, and is no big deal...

They are not the same kind of Worms a Bird can 'get' anyway, and would in fact be a nice Food for a small Song Bird or other bug-eater...


But the thing with Peanuts, especially for a Bird who is not in the best health...the Peanuts tend to have microscopic spores of various fungus, and these can invade and overwhelm a sub-parr immune system and cause very serious illness...'Aspergillosis' is one of the illnesses that can result.

Other reasons also, but just one alone, is plenty good enough to steer clear of Peanuts for Pigeons...even so called 'Human Grade' Peanuts...


Best wishes you two..!


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

Hello Phil!

Thank you for the advice.
I am sure they are worms, they wore defiantly moving. I am train to take him to the vet today and get some samples


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## Feefo

Hi Chris,

What you are seeing are segments of tapeworm that are filled with eggs. They are excreted in the faeces, crawl to the surface of the dropping and attempt to leave it. As you mentioned they look like small grains of rice.

Not all wormers kill tapeworms, and the one that I have at the moment doesn't touch them.

You can buy a wormer on line, but they come in packs of 40. If you buy some I can buy the spare ones off you.

http://www.vetscriptions.co.uk/avicas.html

I can't remember whether Panacur kills tapeworms (Edited: Panacur doesn't kill tapeworms), but if you get some of that be very careful, it can be toxic to pigeons and the dose in a capsule is measured for 500 gram racer, so it is easy to overdose a feral.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

...praziquantel...I think is the one for Tapeworms...might be other trade-names though, for the UK or Europe...


I think Tapeworms are not fussy as to whose Intestines they seek succour in...so, when we suspect them in any animal or person, we do well to remember to be careful in keeping any feces from contaminating anyone else or anything we are not in strict controll over...rigorous hand-washing any time the patient or their immediate bedding and so on are handled, and so on...

No 'Nail Biting' or touching one's Eyes or Nose or food or anything...till after a rigorous hand washing...


No big deal, but best to make sure no one else gets them..! The Care-Giver included!


In the old days, endless people used to have them...it was very common everywhere...


Probably, in the Third World, it is still very common.



Phil
l v


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## chriss80

I have been to the vet to make the appointment for tonight, I had a small chat with a vet that was there and gave him this website and my nickname in case he needed more information. Id better put the word Llanelli in case he is searching for keywords.


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## chriss80

The vet was very useful and told me that he will instruct the lady that I will see tonight regarding worms. I gave him a description. He told me that and a droppings lab test is for an entire flock and about the price regarding is only 35 pounds and I can afford it as is not as much as I thought it would be.

Now regarding the possibility of this pigeon having a tapeworm or some sort of worm that I could of have been infested too. First to say I am well and I am not ill in anyway but as I reed about it I find that I can have something and not know. Now about getting exposed to it is quite likely. I had seeds thrown in my face and eyes from his moth and I have been keeping him around. I always washed my hands and disinfected rigorously as I always considered the possibility of getting something, I also used a disinfectant spray to clean wherever he pooed on the carped in my living room. Anyway I do want to take the lab test of the pigeon because is good to know if I have been exposed and what actions to take, I am not worried about it, luckily here I have free healthcare in uk.


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## Feefo

Hi Cristina,

I think that it would be cheaper to give a general wormer that kills tapeworm as well as other worms to the pigeon, the lab test would only confirm what you already know: it has worms! 

You certainly won't have caught tapeworm from the pigeon! Even they don't catch it from each other, it is spread by an intermediate host that would pass the infection on to the pigeon if the pigeon ate it. Your pidgie probably got tapeworm by eating a snail.

There are some diseases that can pass from a pigeon to a human but that happens very, very rarely and would usually involve the pigeon's poop getting into your digestive system, for example by contaminated food. One member caught ornithosis by giving a very sick pigeon the kiss of life.

This is a link to Save the Trafalgar Square Pigeons' summary of what the experts have had to say on pigeons and disease:

http://www.savethepigeons.org/disease.html

I have a hundred pigeons and have never caught anything from them, although I have become allergic to them!

Cynthia


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## chriss80

The fact that the lab tests are so unprescised is quite disappointing. I wanted to find out what type of worm it is so I know better and what measures to take, you see in his room where I arranged an aviary still has a few heavy picas of furniture on top of the carpets and on top of that the carpets are stuck to the ground somehow so no chance of clearing that room. I do however always put newspapers on the ground and covered things with plastic bags to which I put loads of newspapers on top and he has made no mess around. I clean all the time and I can make sure no poo is around and I can use mild detergents but they can not do what bleach would do in a proper place. If this worms survives and are highly contagious then he will get infected again. I reed about worms and haw some just die away within hours but I also reed about tiny germs that can only be killed to being exposed to good amount of bleach. I can always put him in another room but that one was so perfect and he was happy in there, is a room where he has good space to fly and other pigeons can visit him at the window and they talk to one another without bothering the neighbours, he coos all day to them. When I got him first I put him in another room first but people wore passing by and sow him in the window and stopped to take picture of him, not a very good things as he was starting to attract other pigeons too so he would of got on someone nerve in the end so I moved him. Anyway I have a limited space where I can make an aviary for him and I am miles away from building one outside, not to mention I will move soon.


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## Feefo

Hi Chris,

The lab tests will be able to tell you what kind of worms he has , but a single wormer that is effective against all pigeon worms will solve the problem. The worms are not highly contagious, he would only catch them by eating insects or snails that carry them. 

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

chriss80 said:


> The vet was very useful and told me that he will instruct the lady that I will see tonight regarding worms. I gave him a description. He told me that and a droppings lab test is for an entire flock and about the price regarding is only 35 pounds and I can afford it as is not as much as I thought it would be.
> 
> Now regarding the possibility of this pigeon having a tapeworm or some sort of worm that I could of have been infested too. First to say I am well and I am not ill in anyway but as I reed about it I find that I can have something and not know. Now about getting exposed to it is quite likely. I had seeds thrown in my face and eyes from his moth and I have been keeping him around. I always washed my hands and disinfected rigorously as I always considered the possibility of getting something, I also used a disinfectant spray to clean wherever he pooed on the carped in my living room. Anyway I do want to take the lab test of the pigeon because is good to know if I have been exposed and what actions to take, I am not worried about it, luckily here I have free healthcare in uk.




Hi chriss80, 


I did not mean to scare you in any way..!


Tapeworms exist all over the World and are very common...

They are contracted in various ways, usually from soils, or from insects who live in or on soils, or from feces...

You would not be able to get them from mouths or things held in mouths.

It is their Eggs which one would get from various means...and as these Worms live in the Intestines of their Host, their manner of propigation is to lay Eggs which pass out of the Host along with the poops or feces...usually, in Nature, this would see the Eggs distributed onto Soils, where Grazing animals would tend to eat them along with their grazing forrages.


They are very common on Dogs, Cats and other Mammals...and remain very common in the so called hird-world, and are somewhat common in people everywhere...even Fish get them..!

They are very easy and inexpensive to treat for, and are not considered an illness or a worry.

In a small Animal, such as a Pigeon, especialy if the Bird is not quite healthy, one would do best to make sure that the Bird does not have to oblige any parasites robing him of his nutrition, or making other bothers for him.


There are no symptoms to speak of, merely that the Tape Worm robs the Host of Nutrition, and, if the size or number of Tape Worms are large enough, and the Host small enough, then the problem of the Worm getting too much of the Host's nutrition, becomes in earnest.

Your chances of getting TapeWorms from eating in Restaurants, or 'fast food' establishments, especially any who employ immigrants from warmer climes or who came from impoverished regions, is infinitely greater than getting them from handling a Bird who has them...since the vector would be one of transmitting the fecal borne Eggs, into one's own digestive system, and food handlers who do not wash their hands well after going to the commode/restroom/loo, are a reliable sourse of transmission.


Anyway, I was only meaning to recommend being alert to one's normal habits to ensure care, and to simply observe sensible hygene, not to invite or recommend any worrys..!



Your Vet is being a little pedantic or greedy, since a fast Lab Test for Tapeworms' Eggs would take him about two seconds, verses complicated or protracted proceedures needed for testing for various kinds of micro-organisms in fecal 'floats' and the likes.

Farm Vets deal with Tape Worms constantly...and they should be common enough also to any Vet of any kind, since they are a ubiquity.

Saying a Droppings Lab Test would be for an entire Flock, makes no sense whatever, unless he were to be provided with poops from every individual member of a Flock, in order to test each one...so, something sounds amiss there with that...


Best wishes...!


No worries please!


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

I just came back from the doctor. She gave him a medicine called Ivomec and is trough the skin, she said is for internal tapeworm and he will eliminate the worms, haw do this kind of skin absorbing medicine works to be effective I don’t know so I will order myself today Avicas wormer for pigeons that Cynthia recommended.
The vet also gave me another doze so I have to give him more in a week, it is put on the skin at the back of his neck.


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## chriss80

Hello Phil

I did not got scared it just made me wander. I understand what you say and is really ok.

The vet tonight sow no purpose to have a lab test done.

Thank you for the info, is much appreciated!


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## chriss80

One thing I am starting to see from the past 3-4 days, I thought is just me in the beginning but I think he is slightly more puffed up. I mean he is more time being puffed up, he is not puffed up all the time though, is just sometimes he appears tired. He coos a lot though in the morning while other pigeons come at the window as usual. Anyway I am going to keep an eye on him.


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## pdpbison

Hi chriss80, 



The avdantage for determining if the Bird has definite Tape Worms, is to then employ a medicine which specifically is for Tape Worms, since other 'worm-meds' do not cause the Tape worms to leave...


Hence, treating arbitrarily, for worms in general, will not necessarily cause a removal of the Tape worms, even if it does cause a removal of other co-existing kinds of Intestinal Worms.


Some Worm Medicines contain both sorts of specific chemicals, for, the two broader kinds of Worms...and, since Tape Worms are fairly rare in Pigeons and other non-ground Birds an average Vet would see or deal with, most of the anti-worm medicines will not contain the right kind of chemicals for dealing with Tape Worms.


Treating for 'general' Endo-Parasites ( internal kinds, such as 'pin worms' ) , as you decribed, is certainly a good idea, since the Bird may well have more than one sort...

But, unless the medicine also contains the correct chemicals for the Tape Worms, it will not solve a Tape Worm problem.

Too, far as I recall, the regimen for Tape Worms requires an Oral Medication, and not a topical ( applied to the skin ) sort...

Maybe ask around some more, and see if you might find a more intelligent and interested Vet...


So far, this Vet is not appearing to me anyway, to be very able or familiar or interested, whether they are charging you for their attentions, or not...


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo

Cristina, did you describe the worms to him? As I mentioned earlier in the thread not all wormers kill tapeworms and it would be best to use a general wormer that kills tapeworms...Ivomec is one of the ones that doesn't kill tapeworms although it is good for other worms! 

Even the wormer I use (Moxidectin) will only kill tapeworms if Praziquantel has been added to it, then it is called Moxidectin Plus.

If you get Avicas you might have to delay administering it too soon after Ivomec, or consult Reti who has worked in a veterinary surgery and might know the answer...my thoughts are that one wormer on top of another could be dangerous.

The fluffing up and looking poorly could also be due to worms. Three times I have found resident pigeons weakened by something, I wormed them and found roundworms in their poop. Just a few roundworms bring them down.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Hello 

I did described the worms to him very well, I also told her that I treated him for external parasites and he has none present

I will contact Reti her about it because I want to administer him next the Avicas. 

Another thing the vet said is that the pigeon is fat and she might be right, I have not handled a pigeon since I was child and I can’t remember haw a pigeon should feel like. Anyway I am going to start giving him the small low calories seeds mix either he likes it or now. 

These worms seem really complicated


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## Feefo

Well, we will have to see what happens, maybe they have added Praziquantel to the Ivomec now like they added it to Moxidectin. Tapeworms are so large that they will be very visible in the poop.

I can tell when a pigeon is too thin or too light, but I don't think I would know without weighing it whether it was too fat!

Cynthia


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## chriss80

I have received a reply from Reti and I will send her the ingredients that avicas has in when it arrives. This is what she replied:

Hi Christina,

sorry it took me a while to write you back. i was trying to find out what avicas is, I mean what active ingredients it contains, but haven't found anything. In any case antiwormers are pretty toxic on our birds, so the less you give, the better. Topical treatment won't necessary kill all worms especially the eggs so a pill is preferable and the dose needs to be repeated in three weeks. The internal form of the medicine will also kill external parasites.
After you stop the topical treatment you can give the avicas in three weeks, that should be safe.

Reti


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## chriss80

Well no tapeworm in his poop yet. The tiny white ones are still there and alive as usual.


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## chriss80

Oh and he won’t drink the ACV water, he knows is something in it.. He did yesterday evening once but he made a face after, today he keep going around it, he is clearly thirsty, he puts his beack into it for a second and changes his mind, if he drink water that is very little. Maybe I should give him water myself but I do not know haw much a pigeon drinks a day, that way I would make sure he drinks it.


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## Feefo

Hi Reti,

Avicas had fenbendazole... isn't that what Panacur is? IF SO, not my favourite ingredient for wormers. This is what Seigel's say:



> Avicas – For individual worm treatment. Contains Fenbendazole -- extremely effective against all types of worms, even tape worms. (Oropharma – Belgium)


Christina, before you treat your pidge with Avicas please let us know what the ingredients are listed as and what the dosage instructions are. Fortunately your pidgie is a heavy weight, some tablets designed for racers can be an overdose for a small, thin feral.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Hello Cynthia.
I will not administer him the medicine until I talk to people here and I will post the ingredients before.

The latest news are that Piggi just puked his seeds out tonight. And then he pecked at them. He puked 2 times, he still has some seeds in his crop and I am going to keep an eye on him. I am going to keep him locked in a cage for tonight, he will defiantly protest about it but I would rather knows if he puked more of any of the worms have come out. The room he stays in is big and I could overlook things. I feed him normally tonight, the same amount I usually feed him. He poos so I don’t think he blocked on anything like that. Maybe is just the effect of the vets medicine.


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## pdpbison

Hi chriss80,



Sometimes an entirely healthy Pigeon will throw up for no reason I can figure out...


Medicines can cause them to do it too of course. 

I do not remember if you are using the ACV-Water for your Pigeon?


Might be a good thing to do...

I think I posted the details in your thread a while ago...if not, let me know, and I will run you through it.

It is good for them no matter what, and, especially good for them after courses of antibiotics, or, if they are having various sorts of Crop troubles they can get sometimes...


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

Hello Phil, I started using AVC water for him since yesterday but he makes a face at it and he won’t drink to much of it.


----------



## chriss80

Well today some worms have come out, about 3 of them about half and inch in size and long, they appeared dead.


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## Feefo

They sound like round worms. Even a few of those can be very debilitating. Can you take a photo? When I wormed a rescue recently I collected all the dead worms that came out in the poop and placed them side by side, but didn't remember to take a photo!

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Oh Cynthia I am sorry, I did not had the courage to watched them for too long! I will try next time


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## pdpbison

chriss80 said:


> Hello Phil, I started using AVC water for him since yesterday but he makes a face at it and he won’t drink to much of it.



Hi chrisso80,



What ratio or proportion of Vingar to Water did you mixe up?

What kind of Vinegar?


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

Hi Phil

Is organic apple cider vinegar, 3 tablespoons to a gallon, I tried 1 tablespoon to a gallon and Piggi still feels is there and won’t drink it, what a bird! He does drink normal tap water, is just the acv one he refuses to drink. Maybe I should feed him the ACV with a syringe or tube; haw much do you think would an approximate 450 grams pigeon would need of ACV water daily? 
Or maybe I should add something to it so he does not feel the sour taste in the water of the vinegar. I don't know what could I possible put in it, maybe something sweet.


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## pdpbison

Hi chriss80,



Huh..! I am surprised he would refuse it..!


Everyone here, wild or not, always seem to like it, or, at least, not to object, even at three or four TBSPs to the Gallon...so...hmmmm...curious...


Well, you could try adding a little Salt to it...and or Salt and Sugar, or some Grape or Apple Juice or some non-citrus Fruit Juice of some kind, added also to the Water, and see what he thinks...


But maybe he is just ensitive to the smell or twang of it somehow...disguised or not..!


If you and he are comfortable with you tube-feeding...you could try mixing 4 Tablespoons of the ACV to half-a-Gallon of Water...and use this for mixing his formula with, in lieu of plain Water...and, allowing him to drink plain Water in-between meals, would more or less work out for a daily intake roughtly of "4'' Tablespoons to a gallon all tolled...or likely a little less...

This would be a light end of a truely therapudic dose, and should be definitely a good thing for him...

If you feel he does not like this, then, oh well, at least you tried! and no point in forcing it on him if he does not seem to take it well...


What I like about the ACV-Water, is it will get rid of many undesirable micro-organisms in their Crops, while allowing the desireable ones to stay...benifiting their system as a whole...


'Egg Tooth' would have been on her upper Beak, a little back from the tip...and by now would have long since been re-absorbed, receeded...gone away...



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## chriss80

Hi Phil

Yup, he refuses to drink it.
I am goanna try a bit of juice or the sugar and see what he makes of it.
Thank you!

Cristina


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## chriss80

Avicas has arrived. I scanned the instructions sheet bellow and says everything about it.
It contains 15mg of the active ingredient febantel.


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## chriss80

He still has those tiny worms in his poo today and no other big worms have come out. He goes all crazy when other pigeons come at the window and he starts putting an continuous long show for them. He is still puffed up sometimes and his tail goes up and down sometimes. All I can say is that he is not feeling any worse which is a positive thing.


----------



## Feefo

I am not happy with the wormer that you have received, the description on the leaflet doesn't match the information on the site. The pack doesn't mention tapeworms at all, and I have read on other sites that Febantel (which metabolises into Fenbendazole) *in combination with Praziquantel *will kill tapeworms as well as roundworms and hairworms. 

I found this on an internet site, which suggests that Avicas and Ivomec have "an effect" on these worms: 



> Tapeworms(rare)
> Flat, ribbon-like and segmented
> 
> The above mentioned worms live in the intestinal tract. They are spread with the droppings. These worm infections can easily be kept at a tolerable level with worm medication (e.g. Avicas)but are difficult to completely erradicate. All birds should be treated and the loft cleaned in order to prevent a re-infection. Also Ivomec treatment has an effect on these worms.


I will e-mail the site and ask how effective Avicas really is against tapeworm. Otherwise, Jayne has told me that I had sent her some Moxidectin with Praziquantel, I will ask her to send some of this on to you.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Yes, I know what you mean about the description on the site and then on the medicine. I searched about the medicine ingredient Fabantel and it says that it kills the tapeworm but why is not inside the sheet that mention I don’t know. The website has a helpline phone number but they are only there from Monday till Friday 9am to 5pm


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## Feefo

Well, that is a relief. I would wait until the treatment with Ivomec is over before using Avicas, and even then I would leave it for another three or four weeks before treating because the Ivomec site says that it continues to be effective against some parasites for 28 days. ..unless someone else has information to prove that it is safe to treat sooner? 

Sorry to sound so paranoid, but we have had pigeon deaths as a result of using wormers on this site, so with tapeworm I would prefer to err on the side of caution.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Hello Cynthia

I will continue the Ivomec treatment as it had results. I do not know if it would be safer to treat it sooner as I have no info. 
Does this mean that he could eliminate more worms for 28 days?

I contacted the website about the Avicas error. I do not understand the chemistry and haw ingredients react and haw they are prepared to be effective or not and why the manufacturer has not put tapeworms in his leaflet. Ill let you know what they will get back at me with.


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## chriss80

I put a latest picture of Piji sitting down. He does not stay in a basket and if I put a blanket there he will not stay on it but near it on the hard floor, that cage is open at all times but he prefers to spend some of his time in there with the food and water in front of him. He will sometimes pecks at his food from sitting down. He sometimes sits down, but I was wandering if he seems ok there, sometimes his head puffs up his and the tail feathers too, you can se in the pic the tail feathers puffed, I was just wandering if he is ok.


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## Reti

I am not clear if pij has tapeworms or what other worms.
In the pic he looks ok, maybe a little puffed but not bad.
I wouldn't use both together either. I am a little paranoid about antiwormers too as they are pretty toxic. Ivomec has worked pretty well for me. 
I have never used Avicas and I have to look it up if it covers tapeworms. In any case I would give them at least three weeks apart. After the treatment you are giving now can you have a fecal done to see what results you've got after the treatment?

Reti


----------



## Feefo

Hi Cristina,

Because of what came out in his poops we know that he had roundworm and 
tapeworm. Tapeworm is rare in pigeons. She (or he) probably also has or had hairworms.

The "fluffed" tails is what I refer to as a "lobster tail", sometimes they look like that when they are trying to balance on a perch but she shouldn't be like that on the ground. Sometimes worms can make them feel pretty much under the weather, so maybe that is what is wrong. Is she flying OK now?

Cynthia


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## chriss80

The flaying is perfect! I haven’t seen the lazy wing in a while he is flapping around. He is loosing a few fluffy feathers daily and I think is because I keep the house warm.


----------



## chriss80

I just discovered a small yellow dot behind his tongue near his air hole. Is defiantly canker. He has been sneezing today 5 times and I think that is what made him sneeze.


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## chriss80

I have contacted Cynthia about the medicines. I have also looked around and found on ebay something called
Harkers Spartrix For Treatment Of Canker In Pigeons ans is a single does. I can never be too confident in people sending things in time.


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## Feefo

I will put some Spartrix in the post today.

From the location it sounds like canker and I would treat for canker anyway, but can you wipe the spot ver, very gently with a cotton bud? Not so hard that you would dislodge something that is embedded in the tissue. If it wipes off easily then it could be yeast or respiratory exudate.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Thank you Cynthia. I hope is canker and looks like canker from all the pictures and the descriptions i saw here because it seems easy to treat. 
I will try to wipe it with a bud and come back with details.


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## chriss80

Ok, this thing wipes easily. It still seems to have some spots there that stayed. But the main yellow spot disappear, and was no attached to anything, i think was more like a mucus. And he sneezed today too a few times.


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## Reti

Guess it sounds more like yeast (Candida). Do you have Nystatin?
Also, add some Apple Cider Vinegar to his water

Reti


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## chriss80

Hi, I talked to Cynthia and she is going to send me some meds. I will give him the AVC water.


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## Feefo

> Guess it sounds more like yeast (Candida). Do you have Nystatin?


I have Nystatin....will post it tomorrow (it has to be posted at the post office because they have this weird new price system that goes by the shape of the parcel instead of the weight only, so I can't just put a first class stamp on the parcel and pop it in the box). But the Christmas post is very slow.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Cristina,

I received a reply about AVICAS, can I give your address to Canary Jayne so that she can send you Moxidectin Plus?:

_*Thank you for your email

You are quite correct that Avicas makes no claim of efficacy against tapeworms - that was an error on our website, which has now been corrected.

We will of course fully refund any purchase of Avicas that was made on the basis of that incorrect information

Thank you for pointing that out to me, and I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you


Andrew Prentis MRCVS

Vetscriptions Ltd*_


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## chriss80

Hello Cynthia

I have received the same email and been refunded .I did not even sent it back to them yet, Weird !

Piggi makes a noise from the past days when I feed him. Every time I put food into his beak makes this kissing almost like a cough type of noise, when he swallows in particular. There is nothing visible covering his airhole and he has nothing that stops the food going down the throat that I can feel. He used to make that type of sound from time to time but now is with almost every seed. The food is going down without any problem.


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## chriss80

Tuesday I put the Ivomec on his skin. Yesterday I sow that yellow thing down his throat and was much more bigger and I thought it came back with a vengeance but after a few hours when I looked again it disappear completely. Now it has some very small dot in the corner of his mouth and is been there for 3 days. Still not eating on his own. I have been feeding him the low calories seeds lately but he has not lost weight, he is now 478 grams and I am feeding him once a day. He does some activity all by himself around, flapping and talking to the other pigeon’s trough the window but I don’t think it can be compared with what he would of done outside. Otherwise he appears to be as usual. The post office is terribly slow.


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## chriss80

Hello!

The parcels have finaly arrived Jane and Cynthia. Thank you both very much.
I have administer Piggi the Ivomec last one from the vet on the 18th . And I think he is redy for Nystatin, I am gonna talk to Cynthia first. The yellow thing in his throat appeared today again but it went away when I looked again some hours away. I think this is what causes him to sneeze.
I am not really sure haw to keep these meds. I would better put them in the fridge ( not to the freeze part) so please correct me if I am wrong.


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## chriss80

Hello !

I do not see worms in his poo or eggs, if there are any they are hiding very well.
He is sneezing less and that yellow appears less in his throat, is very little and goes away fast. He is been treated for it now.
He holds himself better now, he does not puff as much as he use to. I was quite worried at a time because he was puffing up often.


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## chriss80

Just a quick update I saw tonight a half an inch thing white long worm.


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## chriss80

Piggi is less puffed up now. And no sign of any worms. His sneezing is less now and that yellow thing down his troth I have not seen it at all. He keeps molting , i think is the fact I keep the house warm, i see about 8 small feathers and fluff falling daily. I gave him a bath and I noticed while he was damp a patch underneath him around around the long breast bone, the feathers are covering it well. I am still hand feeding him, same as usual. I think he has become a bit to much used to us and lost his fear of us. I wanna get a mate for him but i do not know if he could spread any illnesses to a new pigeon and what measures to take. He would much appreciate some company of his own kind. He spends all day looking at the other pigeons trough he window.


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## TAWhatley

Thank you for the good news update! You have done a really wonderful job with Piggi! Once you are sure Piggi is completely well, you can safely introduce a mate or companion.

Terry


----------



## Feefo

> i see about 8 small feathers and fluff falling daily.


Hi Cristina,

Healthy pigeons will shed a few down feathers overnight. Those are the very small white feathers.

What are his poops like? How much are you feeding him now? And what is his weight?

I am still hoping that Piggi and Amyable's Tipsey might pal up!

Cynthia


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## chriss80

hi

his poops are looking green with white but not the bright neon green type , no more worms present.I am feeding him slightly less for a while and he is about 5 grammes lighter and that is 445 grammes. He sure looks a bit bigger then a normal pigeon. he does not do much exercise but he will get very active when the pigeons visit him at the window and he interacts with pigeons. You see he doesn't come to me for food voluntarily, is odd but is like he does not realize the importance of food completly, he still pecks at the food though.


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## amyable

I am still hoping that Piggi and Amyable's Tipsey might pal up!

Cynthia,

That is so weird you saying that. I had just been catching up on Christina's thread and as I was reading the part where she mentioned finding him a mate, I immediately thought , 'how about Tipsey'!! From the picture Christina posted a while ago, Piggi and Tipsey look identical,(apart from the damaged wing).

Christina, if you do ever consider a mate for Piggi, Tipsey would love a permanent friend!!!  

Janet


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## chriss80

Hello! I am worried that Tipsey might not keep up with Pidgey as he flays every ware across the living room and his place.He perches on the high tall bookcase. Would Tipsey get hurt if she was to fall of a high perch? He would call her all day to come up to him and he might get the wrong idea in the beginng, he is to scared to sit around the floor or the on the low perches


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## chriss80

he would get so jelous seeing another pigeon going at his food lol , that could motivate him to ea all by himself


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## amyable

*Match making !*

Hi,

Yes it might be a problem if he likes to be up high as she can't fly up high. She can certainly jump up high steps and obstacles but unfortunately the highest I've seen her get is about six inches off the ground in flight mode!

I've put perches graduating up from the ground for the pigeons that can't fly at the 'sanctuary' I kidnapped her from. They like to perch but can only get up by climbing so it's like a ladder effect, but at least then they can perch off the ground if they want. At the moment she perches on bricks and a lump of turf in her cage and that in turn is on a shelf so she thinks she's up high.

I did start asking about to try and find her a home a while ago but got scared off. I found a pigeon supply shop fairly locally and as the owner knew a lot of pigeon people I asked if he knew some-one who could give her a home. Initially he said yes, that wouldn't be a problem to find one. When I went to see him about it next time, he laughed and said anyone he knew would kill her if she couldn't fly, not much use to them ! So I got out of there quickly! 

She'd have to entice Piggi down to her level ! As far as eating goes she certainly could teach him a thing or two !!

Janet


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## chriss80

Do you think she is any kind of pain with her wing?


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## chriss80

I reed about Tipsey and is quite sad and she deserves a companion and being around not friendly dogs at home isn't good either.The only thing I am afraid is that I do not have much experience with ill pigeons and I do not want to do any mistakes and the broken wing could be overwhelming. But I would love to take Tipsey anyway, I know that here are a lot of people that could guide me, in fact that is what I am counting on since the vets where I live even though wore good with me they have no idea what to do to a pigeon. Where do you live exactly amyable?


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## Pidgey

What, if any, pain Tipsey's in, she'll just have to live with as there isn't an alternative. Incidentally, that condition would be worse for a cock than a hen. A hen can live very comfortably down low as a handicapped bird as long as the environment's safe--I've got several that do. If a pair decide on a low nesting place (and they will if that's what the circumstances demand), she'll be just fine and he can toodle around all he wants. It would be far worse for the pair if the tables were turned. I've seen that happen, too.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Amyable, is the bird able to take care of herself during the day? I have an unpredictable job and I could be away all day with no one to keepan eye on her, maybe she gets stuck on her back or something because of her wing and not being able to get up or drink water in a hot day and get dizzy and frustrated


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## amyable

I don't think she's in any pain really, doesn't necessarily like it if I handle her bad wing but she doesn't like me picking her up so it maybe more to do with that. The long flight feathers have grown back and so they'll just need to be trimmed every time that happens. Once she's picked up she's really calm, just gives me a right good peck, wing slap, and a grunt when I put my hands in her box to pick her up! Loves having her head stroked too.

I live just outside Birmingham, a place called Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands.
When my parents were alive they used to live for a few years in Sketty, near Mumbles, South Wales. Is that anywhere near you?

Janet  

I'm going to have to log off now for the night, got an early start in the morning, so speak to you about it more tomorrow perhaps !


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## Pidgey

I don't think she's in any pain, either. The point that I was making was that if she was, you'd never know it and she wouldn't pay any attention to it, either. Jag certainly doesn't exhibit any "guarding behavior" nor do I expect does Tipsey. Tipsey's already learned to deal with her handicap as has Jag and Jag lives in a loft with a bunch of other pigeons. He appears to give as good as he gets. I had to build a handicapped ramp to the waterer and teach him how to use it. The rest is history--I haven't had to give him any special care since, and that's been many months ago. He's just one of the pack, living his own life.

Pidgey


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## chriss80

hi, I live not too far away from mumbles. I am in Llanelli. I am in yorkshire now for a while and i will be back tomorrow(i think) on my way to south wales, is a long drive


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## amyable

*Match Makers R Us.*

Christina, Thanks for your PM. 

I know of Llanelli, I used to travel to the Gower a lot in those days, lucky you.

In answer to your question about fending for herself, Tipsey is absolutely self sufficient apart from the fact she has this damaged shoulder. As Pidgey's bird Jag does, she just has to live her life at ground level. I have to leave her most of the time, in fact she prefers it when I'm not bothering her. Like today, when it's really cold outside, I leave her in a downstairs bathroom and she potters around, on and off perches I put up for her but usually ends up standing in front of a glass door, she's spotted another pigeon staring back at her!!!
She's probably happiest when I let her out in the garden and she can peck about in the lawn, but I can only do that when I can be out there too in case the neighbourhood cat is about, too often I find pile of feathers. 
When she has fallen over she just lies motionless until I appear. When I found her in a bad way at the 'sanctuary' she must have been lying there for at least a couple of days as she was so caked in poop. In the past I have been out all day and come back to find her on her back, and she looks dead. Only when I get near does she panic and try to get up. She just waits to be helped up, but she is no worse for it. I hope that paints a better picture of how she is, but anything else you want to know just ask.

Please don't worry and feel you must take her on, there's no rush to make a decision. I love her to bits and she's is fine here, I just think it might be unfair for me to keep her by herself in the long run, as she is never going to be totally tame, and in the wild she'd be with other birds. I wish I understood pigeon psychology or body language to know what she would prefer! We'll have to ask the experts as I haven't been around pigeons long enough to know for sure whether she's happy or not.
The main thing is, it must be right for you and the right set up for Piggi too. Should Piggi ever want to be free she would have to stay, that's the main thing to decide on as she would be a permanent lodger. 

Anyway, have a safe journey home, it is a long one.

Regards Janet and Tipsey.


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## chriss80

Yeah Gower is really pretty and make a great drives out, so picturesque. 

My Piggi spends his time too looking at other pigeons trough the glass all day. He gets them to come near him and he or they start a cooing spectacle.
I think Tipsey is defiantly happy to be alive and taken care of. What I am worried about is that Piggi is really a mean bird and he bites and attacks pretty much anything. When I used to take him out in the garden so the other pigeons to visit him he used to have a fight trough the cage bars with them, his favourite thing was to pluck the feathers of other male pigeons when he was catching them near his cage, he just pokes his head out to kick their arses or wait for them to do that. What a weirdo but I got to say he never did that to the ladies. He should be introduced carefully to a lady.
I would not mind having Tipsey permanent even is Piggi decides to leave because I want to own more pigeons on the long run when I will move from where I am now. I just love pigeons.
I want like to have a companion for my Piggi very much is just that I do not want to be irresponsible and take in care a pigeon that is in danger in case I am away from home for half a day.
The journey back home was smooth and bellow is a picture of Piggi taking a brake out of his cage for a while to flap his wings and drink some water, the bad weather and long trip did not got him intimidate at all and he displayed his dancing skills proudly on the way.


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## chriss80

pij in the car


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## amyable

What a proud looking bird. Piggi looks like he rules the roost standing there. He certainly looks very much at home with you. His colouring looks so like Tipsey from what I can tell from the picture.

I can understand your reservations over Tipsey. Cynthia warned me of the problems she might encounter if she toppled over and couldn't get up. It might put her in danger of being attacked by other pigeons. You wouldn't want to be worrying about that if you were out.
I did think I should be more sure of whether she is actually a hen aswell. I read a thread a short while ago where Mary of Exeter explained how to check. According to that, I still think Tipsey is a hen. Also someone said that if you put a hen on their back they tend to stay still, if that is the case it could explain why Tipsey just stays motionless when she falls over.

Tipsey has now taken to the 'Pingu the Penguin', the dogs toy I put in her box. She was very wary of it in the first place. I'm not sure what she thinks it is though. I found her the other evening either, trying to feed it, pecking the hell out of it, or maybe something else that pigeons do!  She stopped as soon as she saw me appear so I don't quite know! She does lie next to it at night though which is sweet, so at least she has got some company.  

Janet


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## Feefo

Do either of your pigeons have black splodges anywhere on their feathering?

Cynthia


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## amyable

Hi Cynthia,

No black splodges that I can see on Tipsey. She's pinky red around the chest, green at the neck, her wings are mottled beigey and peach, and her back is white at the top graduating to a light grey around her tail, but no black splodges. The picture that Christina posted where Piggi was in his cage was the best comparison of her colour.

Janet


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## chriss80

no black on Piggi either, he looks pretty much like Tipsey


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## chriss80

e I should say more about Piggi and what he does daily and see if he could be good to Tipsey.
I think is good that Tipsey is a wild bird also because she could stand up for herself. I think a very tame pigeon could be a victim in Piggis eyes. 
I have introduced Piggi to a couple of toy penguins one bigger then him and one about the same size and I am not sure that was a good idea. The moment I put the toys down he went for them, he wouldn’t stop pecking them with is beck and was all very aggressive. I can’t even keep those toys in sight because he will go and have a fight with them, I think he has typical male attitude lol. I think Tipsey might be a girl because she does the total opposite to the toys. I have also put a mirror near him twice and the most peculiar thing happened: both times he didn’t move for 10 minutes, is like he was frozen in a picture and as soon as removed the mirror he went back to normal. I really don’t know for haw long he would of stayed frozen like that but I was a bit worried on his section and I took the mirror away. I think he was waiting for the pigeon in the mirror to do something first or who knows what was going on in his little head.

I think Tipsey reacts the way she does to the toy because she thinks it is another pigeon that keeps her company and want him to be her mate.
Observing the pigeons outside I think 2 main things make them happy and that is food and a mate.


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## chriss80

Cynthia 


I am wandering this in case I would get Tispey for company.
First I would introduce her to my Piggi gradually, I would defiantly not let them together in the begging. But if they become mates and she falls over on her back and is powerless would Piggi attack her? do pigeons even attack they own loving mate ?


----------



## amyable

I tried the mirror thing with Tipsey before. She didn't like it at all and fought to get away. Tonight I put her next to a mirror when I was holding her. When she was a couple of feet away she just stared, as soon as I put her nearer she freaked and grunted. She just stands and stares at her own reflection in the glass door in the bathroom, never approaches it. 
Also, another thing I'm interested in finding out is what her cooing means. She does it when I first put her in her box for the night just a couple of times, and then she eats some seeds before settling down. Today when I put her down after holding her for a while, she runs to get away and then stands on her perch cooing. She seems to do it more in disapproval as if she's reprimanding me for picking her up. I always thought it was something they did to their mate, but she certainly doesn't see me as her mate!

Janet


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## chriss80

Well if she is doing a long coo that is she is calling for other piegeons to come near. My Pigii makes long coos everytimes he sees birds on the sky.
If she does this interrupted cococooocooo cooccoo coocoocoo type of coo and makes a little dance with it and the neck puffs up and is all shimmery well then she might be a he. My Piggi does the dancing coo every time he reached a high spot in the house to announce his territory I think.
I will try to make some videos tomorrow and put them on. He goes all puffy when he coos and makes the dance to the other pigeons on the window, he is quite funny.


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## Feefo

> do pigeons even attack they own loving mate ?


I don't think so , but can only go on my limited experience: Silly Billy attacked my wood pigeon when he fell over, but he left his own little dove alone when she was on her back.

Pigeons don't do it out of spite, it is to protect the flock from sickness.

Cynthia


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## amyable

You could be right about the territorial coo. She only started doing it when I put her in her box initially. I read a post recently where some-one described their bird's coo as sounding like the Woody Woodpecker Song. Tipsey actually sounds like a turkey singing Woody Woodpecker, not that I've heard a lot of turkeys singing in my time!
I suppose if she's a hen she could be protecting her nest.

Janet


----------



## chriss80

Hello Janet!

This film show when a pigeon calls for others, this is quite unisex calling and my Piggi will do this every time he will see other pigeons or any kind of birds passing by.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7270758909979132748&hl=en-GB


This is Piggi has reach a high perching place and make a little coo dance to keep others away and show this is his place, is his territory he has just took over. This is what a male pigeons do. Then he flicks his wings if you try to come near and bite if I try to aproach.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1821746753874224062&hl=en-GB


Here we can see Piggi dancing to female pigeons to impress them. This typical male behaviour. He will also dance and coo likes this to scare other pigeons away also 
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7800490276031412213&hl=en-GB

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1922132619208072930&hl=en-GB

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3494293420919654234&hl=en-GB


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## Feefo

> You could be right about the territorial coo. She only started doing it when I put her in her box initially. I read a post recently where some=one described their bird's coo as sounding like the Woody Woodpecker Song, that's quite a good description of Tipsey's. She also sounds a bit like a turkey!


That is exactly what Feefo the Beautiful did. If I put my hand in her box she would fly at it and try to kill it (Spider creatures from Venus!  )

I put a juvenile in her aviary and she chased it round and round. Poor baby was so terrified I had to sit in the aviary all day (with a good book) to protect the juvie. .One day I found them both crammed into a nesting box , one under the other, and I thought that there had been some sort of fight to the death. LOL! I knew so little about pigeons. Eggs followed soon after that.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Those are such great videos, Chris. The outside pigeons (which seem to be hens) look look as if they are wondering how to get inside his palace.

Cynthia


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## amyable

*Matching Making Via Video Link !*

I have had such fun with those videos. I bought Tipsey in from outside and sat her on the window ledge in the study and played the videos of Piggi to her!!
She really reacted to them. Initially she seemed to like the soft coo when Piggi was on top of the cupboard. When she heard the longest one where he is showing off to the outside pigeons, her head perked up and she started cooing herself.
Piggi does fancy himself doesn't he, there's a lot of competition for his attention out there. Their coos are slightly different, she definately has the Woody Woodpecker tune, his are shorter. Her body language isn't as strong either, unfortunately I don't get ferals in the garden, only Woodies and Stock Doves as far as pigeons go so I don't know how she'd behave if she saw some as close as yours. I still lean towards her being a hen. I'm going into the sanctuary tomorrow, I'll ask them if they can tell.

Thanks for those they were great. If I can get my younger computer experts to help me I'll see if I can get some of Tipsey.  

Janet


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## amyable

*Spider Creatures From Venus!*

A good description Cynthia. Tipsey really grabs a mouthful of skin on my hand and clings on for dear life, such a sweetie! 
A great story, what book did you take in to read, Pigeon psychology, or The Self Help Book For Pigeon Fanciers.
I had to pick up one daughter and her friend today from school early and on the way home I spotted some feral pigeons foraging for food on the corner of a busy road. The girls sat in polite, but embarassed silence as I pulled up and scavenged around on the floor of my car to find some seeds and peanuts that had fallen there on a previous occasion, so I could feed these birds. 'It's getting worse' I heard my daughter say to her friend!!  

Janet


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## chriss80

Hi Janet
The is getting worst feeling my husband knows too well also haha


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## chriss80

I am glad Tipsey looked at his videos, she likes looking and he like being watches while he looks his best and sounds like a lot of fun for these 2 pigeons. Piggi is really desperate for pigeon company. Is hard or me to interact with him when he does not react to any kid of seeds or food. I get pigeons in the garden that will come and eat out of my hand; they are so preoccupied with the food that they don’t even care if I touch them. I tried to coo like a pigeon but Piggi just does not care.


----------



## chriss80

Hi Cynthia, 

The pigeons from outside are really funny. You should see the males trying to dance back at Piggi only that they cannot dance that well back as the window ledge is too narrow. they do try their best but is just not turning right


----------



## John_D

They are lovely videos Chris.

What a fine mate he will make for a nice lady pigeon 

John


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## amyable

*Tipsey gets her own back !!*

I have a funny PS on Cynthia's story of sitting in her aviary reading.. After putting Tipsey back in her box for the night I heard my daughter yell from the study. 'There's pigeon poop all over my book'  

Tipsey had pooped all over Becci's human psychology text book and some art work she was to send off for a university application. That's what Tipsey thinks about humans studying pigeon psychology. OOOOPS!!!!! Perhaps it will bring her luck. Thanks Tipsey. 

Janet


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## mr squeaks

amyable said:


> I have a funny PS on Cynthia's story of sitting in her aviary reading.. After putting Tipsey back in her box for the night I heard my daughter yell from the study. 'There's pigeon poop all over my book'
> 
> Tipsey had pooped all over Becci's human psychology text book and some art work she was to send off for a university application. That's what Tipsey thinks about humans studying pigeon psychology. OOOOPS!!!!! Perhaps it will bring her luck. Thanks Tipsey.
> 
> Janet


LOL! Sounds like TIME for Boni Bird's PGWEAR: pigeon diapers for our little darlin's... The diapers really work too!

Shi & Squeaks


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## chriss80

I got PGWear and is absolutely brilliant, I only used it in a couple of occasions because I do not need it, he only walks and spends his time of his choice in a few places where he makes a mess and I just put newspapers there and is easy for me to handle it.


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## chriss80

Hi Janet! 

Haw is Tipsey doing? Is there still a doubt on ther gender?


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## amyable

*Tipsey*

Hi Chris,

I just tried to reply to your PM but it wouldn't go through!

Tipsey is great thanks. She's out in her cage in the shed today as it's so sunny. She can see the garden birds today instead of me!!
As far as her gender goes I've done the test again that checks the gap between the bones above the vent and at the bottom on the keel bone. I can fit my little finger between the bones which is supposed to show she is a hen. I could do with a male to compare with now!! Have you ever tried this on Piggi?
I may ask my vet next week if they can give me any more advice on how to be sure. I'll weigh her aswell later.
It's hard to tell from her behaviour as she isn't able to interact with other ferals like Piggi can. Seeing him showing off to the ladies at his window gives you a good indication.
How is Piggi now after all his worm treatment?

Janet


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## amyable

*PS on Tipsey's behaviour*

Further to my last note. I've had Tipsey free in the garden all afternoon while I've been gardening, it's been a lovely day. She potters about feeding off the seeds I've put out for the birds, then she sits herself under the trees where the bird feeders are. She is then surrounded by all sorts as they come to eat, she especially reacts to the Jays when they come down, maybe it's their colour and size which is similar to hers.
Anyhow, just now when I brought her in she started doing her Woody Woodpecker coo. She only does a couple normally. This time I took the micky out of her and did it back, (not very well). To my surprise she responded. The main thing was I bowed or nodded my head as I did it, the same as she does and this set up quite a conversation. Every time I nodded she did and walked around her box cooing. We carried on for quite a while. I wondered if this behaviour gave any clue to her gender. Also she kept flicking her good wing slightly. Never seen her do that before either.
Any clues there?


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## Pidgey

It's kind of a "let's build a nest together... does this look good?" communication.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Well, our litle Chickpea who is a hen does the bowing and cooing bit. The only pigeon that we have communicated by nods with from Day1 was Flakey, who is male. But I think Tipesey is female.

Cynthia


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## amyable

Thanks, I think I'd better be careful what I'm 'saying' to Tipsey. She could be leading me up the garden path ! 
I must say it was quite special when I realised she actually was taking notice of me and responding.  

Janet


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## chriss80

Oh yeah, Piggi bows at us too and also does a little dance accompanied by a coo song when we start talking to him sometimes. I am not sure with the wing flicking, I do not see the pigeons in the garden doing that but Piggi does is very often also and sometimes I think is to keep us away by intimidating us when we pass by next to him in our daily chorus or maybe just to attract our attention, what a cutie he is!
I think Tipsey is female too and on haw she reacted to the toy makes me believe that even more so . She defiantly loves being taken to the garden. I bring for Piggi sometimes twigs from outside and weed. 
I do not see any worms in his poos and soon there will be a month from the last treatment with that Ivomec and I will have to find out if is still necessary to be treated with any other wormer. I heard that sometimes when Pigeons have worms they move their tail up and down or they usually keep it down and I have to say Piggys tail has been much perkier so to speak. Sometimes, very rarely when he pecks at his seeds he moves only his tail up and down for a short while, I don’t think he does that for keeping the balance, but I have not seen any other pigeons doing that.
I have also noticed that Piggi is a bit out of shape, he seems to get tired after a while flaying around the room, he goes up and down from the bookcase to the window to impress the other pigeons.

Poor Piggi, he is staring to be aware that when I put the towel on the floor is time for him to eat and be wrapped in it so he doesn’t struggle.. He starts to slightly move away from wherever he is perching. I know he doesn’t like me doing that. If he can associate the towel with being wrapped then being focedfed must be unpleasant, then he is able to make associations like that !so why doesn’t he just starts eating?. This really puzzles me and I feel sorry for him. Without being wrapped he tries to run away and he can’t be fed, I try to do it as gentle as possible to not traumatise him but I think being wrapped in a towel is being wrapped in a towel. I kept Piggi for a while hungry by feeding him less and he still didn’t started to eat by himself at all.


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## amyable

On occasions I Tipsey's tail is down, I did wonder if this is what Cynthia refers to as Lobster Tailed.
Tipsey is usually on the ground or perched on a branch or brick that she can hop up to, so I don't think it's for balance. I've been keeping an eye on her poops but they vary all the time, I assume because she has such a mixture of seeds. If the tail is down what would that normally indicate?
Her poops although round, do tend to be stringy, if that makes sense, not solid like ones I've seen from the garden Pigeons.

Janet


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## Feefo

John has noted that our Chickpea will also go into her nest, coo and flick her wings to attract him to the nest. She is definitely female.

Janet, have you got any probiotics? I use Avipro Plus as soon as I see any change in droppings and more often than not that resolves it. You can buy it on line from Vetark.

Cynthia


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## amyable

Hi Cynthia,

I have something called Entrobiotic (says, 'soluble supplement source of enterococcus faecium, electrolytes & vitamins for pigeons). I looked at the Avipro Plus and it sounds pretty much the same. I'll use this in the meantime and send for some Avipro. I'd rather go with your recommendations. Thanks.

ps. Tipsey and I had another little 'chat' today. She actually came over to me for the first time when I 'cooed' to her, she usually stays in the corner of her box protecting her toy/baby. We'll defintely go with the female diagnosis. 

pps. I just love the names you give your birds.  

Thanks again 

Janet


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## Feefo

John called her Chickpea, but we tend to refer to her as Chickles. Not that that stops him wailing "Not mt Chickpea!" whenever I make chickpea soup!

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Hi Janet!

I think sometimes pigeons keep their tail down on certain times, I would only be worried it the bird would keep its tail down all the time. When my Piggi had the worms he would of keep his tail down when he was relaxing but that went way a while after the treatment.


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## chriss80

Janet, can you tell me more about the wing? Would be good to have an idea what is wrong with it, is the bone stiking out or something like that, can she move the wing just a little? Things like that, poor Tipsey, she is such a cute girl.


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## amyable

Tipsey's problem is more her shoulder, (don't know if that is the official term), rather than her wing. There are no bones sticking out, it lies flat across her tummy. She doesn't seem to have any use in it, just maybe able to lift a few cm's. The bad wing appears to tremble slightly all the time. If I hold her and touch each wing, I can feel a mild tremble in her bad one whereas if I touch her good wing, it's completely still.
I will try to get some photos for you later.

Janet


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## amyable

*Tipsey's Wing*

Here are pictures showing her wing from different angles. Sorry they seem to be quite large. I need to re-trim the long feathers that have grown back so they don't touch the floor.

Janet


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## chriss80

Hello Janet!

What a pretty girl she is! I would sure love to taker her to my Piggis mate,I think they meant for one another. That is if you would still like to give her to us.


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## amyable

*Tipsey and Piggi's Engagement!!*

Hi Chris,

Sorry the pictures came out a little large. I had to leave it up to my daughter to do as I still haven't got to grips with posting yet, and she couldn't reduce them. She also put a couple on I hadn't marked for posting, still you got to see both sides of her!!
It will be the hardest thing to part with her, but I will try and think about what is right for her.
She did something strange last night. When I got her up this morning she had torn up the paper towels I put in the bottom of her box around where her toy is, I wonder if she was trying to make a nest!
This evening she has been cooing with me for ages and now she fans her tail feathers out. I think she would love a mate. 

I need to get to bed now as I'm shattered, can't see what I'm typing!!
Will speak again tomorrow perhaps.

Janet


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## chriss80

Maybe she want something when she coos. Sometimes I notice Piggi coos because he wants some water and he just won't go down for it. Piggi will torn and arrange his paper too, usually out of his way, he is a total rebel and he doesn’t want to sit on anything soft, he would rather stay on the rough wood then use the soft basket or on anything soft.


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## amyable

Hi Chris,

I was about to send you a note then remebered you PM isn't working. I'll pop a quick note on here.
Will write you a proper message tomorrow hopefully about Tipsey, have been at a family funeral today and have got to dash off again now, didn't want you to think I'd not replied.

Tipsey sends her love to Piggi  

Janet


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## chriss80

I just sent a message with my hotmail email address in case you can not contact me trough here.


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## chriss80

Hello!

Me and Janet are establishing on haw to bring Tipsey to Piggi. No time has been established yet to do so. 
I am wandering what precaution to take when these 2 birds will be together. 
I heard that a pigeon that had PMV can transmit the illness for 5 years to other pigeons, I don’t know if that is true or if Piggi even had PMV but sure was something similar. 
Piggi is still not feeding all by himself. That yellow thing down his troth is gone and he is not even sneezing anymore now. He is very jolly during the day and active and looks at the pigeon’s trough the window and makes dances and coos. He is a bit puffed up at the end of the day perhaps he is tired or I don’t know. It has been over a month now and would be safe to give him the other wormer but I do not know if is necessary, he has no worms in his poo at all, I looked and checked very often.

Any advice much appreciate


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## Feefo

Hi Cristina,



> I heard that a pigeon that had PMV can transmit the illness for 5 years to other pigeons


,

Whoever told you that? They can transmit the illness for 6 weeks after they start showing symptoms. I have been rescuing pigeons for 8 years or more now, and have had 3 that didn't show signs of PMV when they were found but later developed the typical symptoms.. But all 3 showed their symptoms within the 2 week period that I quarantine them.



> would be safe to give him the other wormer but I do not know if is necessary


I would give him Moxidectin plus. If Piggi still weighs over 400 gms give him 0.25ml, or 5 drops.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

Hi Cynthia 

I reed it some ware on the Romanian pigeon website something a user posted. I tried to find it but I can not find it now, going to let you know when and if I find the post.

I am going to give him the Moxidectin tomorrow or Sunday and keep an eye on the Piggi so he doesn’t puke it or something like that.


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## chriss80

I just gave him the medicine but Pij just puked out a teaspoon approximately of seeds. He’s done that at about 30 minutes after I have administered the medicine. Luckily I have more medicine but now not sure when to start administer it again, I don’t even know haw much of the med he puked. He hasn’t puked his seeds in about 2 weeks and he sure chooses a bad moment today. I noticed that every time I give him some new seeds or type of food you can bet he’s going to puke it initially. He must of felt the medicine, I gave him the same seeds as usually for a while.


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## amyable

Chris,

Sorry Piggi has puked again, I just came on to catch up with things after being away, hope he's feeling better today. Did he do that the last time he had the medicine?


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## chriss80

He has never done that when I gave him meds before. . He has only puked his seeds about 6 times since I had him. Who knows what he’s thinking. Otherwise his is feeling well. We teach him to go from his room down in the living room and now when the doors are open he knows what he has to do, I notice that many times I have to show him once what he has to do and he will remember. Pigeons are so smart is unbelievable. Haw is Tipsey doing?


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## amyable

Hi,
Tipsey is fine, gave me a good pecking when we came home, but she survived.
Her poops vary so much. Somedays, like yesterday she had very watery ones with just a few strips of dark green poop in them, but there were some fairly ok ones amongst them aswell. She is having probiotic powder in her drinking water. She has the same varieties of seeds every day but the poops are never the same throughout the day.

Apart from that she is very perky and gave me a good run for my money today in the garden. When I was taking her down to her shed cage she launched herself out of my hands, and I had a chase on my hands to get her before the dogs did. With all the running and jumping she did to get away, she didn't fall over once so I think she's really got her balance sorted. Did my heart no good at all! 

Chris I've got a lovely photo of her with Pingu I'll try and post, my 'experts' are too busy with homework to help me at the moment.

Janet


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## chriss80

Talking about pigeons running I never knew the can run so fast, Piggy can run pretty fast., too fast for me at time and he just escaped between my fingers.

I noticed that Piggy will have 2 or 5 watery poos a day and that is quite normal. Sometimes they will look different but I have to say 90% of the time they look the same definatly. I think would not be good at all if the majority of Tipseys poos are watery.


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## amyable

*Tipsey's in Love!*

Hi Chris,

Thought you might like to see a cute one of Tipsey lying down cuddled up next to her 'friend' Pingu.  
( The dogs chewed off his wings when they used to play with it)! This is her box she sleeps in at night when I bring her in.

Janet


ps. haven't seen your mug shot yet!!!


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## chriss80

Hi Janet,


Oh she is sooo cute and she looks so much like Piggi there. Piggy has a grey head too. I think they will make a great couple. 

My mug shoot is there at page five since 6 days ago, yup


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## amyable

*Mug Shot!*



> My mug shoot is there at page five since six days ago, yup


Is it, sorry I will have to go and have a look !!!


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## chriss80

Piggi is doing well except for the fact he is still not eating by himself. He has been growing quite a lot of feather around his face, on top of his head on his cheeks ( if you can say he has any). It is not like he was missing any feathers.
Otherwise we are waiting to get him hooked up with Tipsey.
He is a funny individual. He is doing a little dance on every high perch he is reaching in the room. He does the song if I move him and when I let him go he does the dance again. I used to think he is fluffing the feathers on his neck but apparently he seems to get air in his crop I guess to make that neck look so big when he does the dance.


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## amyable

*Male/Female Behaviour*

I'm still confused as to what is deemed to be male or female behaviour.

Reading on another thread today, apparently the male finds a nest area and then performs and coos to attract the female in. When Tipsey is in her box or cage, and sees me, she walks around in circles, bobbing her head and doing her Woodie Woodpecker cooing all the time now. Recently, when I leave her she has started doing a continuous coo, as someone once described, like a sick moose!  

Do females have a similar ritual and make these noises the same as the males? Up to now we had been fairly confident that Tipsey was female. She doesn't seem to have the 'attitude' that Piggi has though, but I've never seen her with other pigeons of course. Perhaps I should take her with me to the sanctuary one day and let her have a run in the aviary with the others while I'm there and see how they all react.

I was watching a pair of pigeons this week at the sanctuary that are obviously 'in love'. He just bowled over to the hen and began strutting around, cooing and puffing out his feathers, she didn't make any noise, her only response was to give in to his advances!  He also ran around chasing and pecking at two other pigeons in the avairy with them. A definite male!


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## Feefo

Hi Janet,

All I can say is that a hen will *never* run around making a fool of herself by sweeping her tail along the floor in front of other pigeons (male and female) and a cock will *never *lay an egg.

A hen will go on top sometimes when they mate, but she will never run around pecking at her partner to dissuade him from looking at other hens.

When two pigeons pair up in an aviary we always can tell which the male is and which is the female (unless we have a same sex pair somewhere that we haven't identified), until then there is often an element of doubt.

Cynthia


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## John_D

cyro51 said:


> When two pigeons pair up in an aviary we always can tell which the male is and which is the female (unless we have a same sex pair somewhere that we haven't identified), until then there is often an element of doubt.


Hi Janet,

Like Cynthia says, there can be an element of doubt. The one who was a mystery to me for the longest time is our Chickpea, who didn't court anyone (certainly not sweep the floor with her tail), but appeared to be fairly aggressive towards the males. She commandeered a box next to Gurdy (one of the most longstanding males) and his partner Speckles, which I think Gurdy still is affronted by, and held her ground. Then one day, an egg appeared! Since then, she has definitely had an occasional fling with Gurdy - who still tries to evict her now and then - but has never showed any interest in settling down with anyone. She also seems to have an affection for her humans, to complicate her odd personality 

John


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## amyable

Hi John and Cynthia,

Well I can tell from your replies that if you don't know for sure then I certainly won't be able to!
Tipsey is confusing me lately, her behaviour has altered so much in the last week even. She is far more confident and this evening really stood tall and looked me right in the eye, even coming towards me as opposed to backing off with her wing up as she used to do. She has started to batter the toy she has in her box and even throws it out!!!
Obviously I don't want to land Christina with a potential problem if they are both males. Last week Tipsey was fanning her tail out as she walked around in circles in her box which I saw Piggi doing in Christina's videos of Piggi. The next day she had it in the air!
I'm away on holiday next week, it'll be interesting to see how she reacts to the person coming in to feed her. I've told them to put on gloves when they put their hands in her cage to change the water!!! 

Thanks for the info anyway,

Janet


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## chriss80

Piggi started eating only tiny pieces of sea shells grit I have for him. Not much, a little really small bits. He defiantly goes for them especially and pecks at them until as much as he needs. I have small corn seeds like the grit at bottom of the birds bag and can turn peanuts at that level too but he just won’t swallow any of thouse. 
I am quite happy as he at least gets something for himself on top of the water. I think he really felt the need for the grit as I am usually feeding him very little. Now I want to get a big amount of seeds at the level of the sea shells girt without turning it into dust. That is quite small and not other seeds are naturally that small. I think maybe like that he will start eating other things then that grit


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## amyable

*Piggi Eating!*

Yippee Piggi, from small acorns, oak trees grow, or something like that!

Will catch up with your news in a week.  

Janet


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## Feefo

I will send you some conditioner and treats mix for yoiu to try out on him.

Cynthia


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## chriss80

That is great Cynthia, is always cool to get him homething new to have a go at. Usualy even if he won't eat it is gonna attract his attantion at least, he is a curriouse bird


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