# black self baldhead



## jfern25 (May 13, 2011)

this is another color pattern that I find attractive. it appears to be a black self bald head. here is a pic. if anyone can identify the color or tell me how to produce such color pattern, I would appreciate it.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

As you said, probably black (which is blue spread) with the baldhead gene. The color is maybe a little uneven for spread maybe. Could also be a very dirty, sooty [smoky] bar, looking at the tail, but probably not.

Both spread and bald-head are dominant factors, so any mating to a blue should give you about 1/4 change of breeding another like it.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Baldhead is dominant but best if 2 copies of the gene.


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## newday (Dec 12, 2004)

*Black baldhead*

It does not look like baldhead, looks like grizzle.

Link


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*That bird is not a black ballhead ,if was it would have white flights and a white tail that is what the ballhead gene is.* GEORGE


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Seems to be a lot going on with piebald birds and to just say all baldhead birds are white flight and white tail would be something to talk about. Mumtazticlofts reports they are generally found in that phenotype but does say its argued. What are you basing your information on? an experiment or somebody work?


http://mumtazticloft.com/m_baldheadpied.asp


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

It looks like a heterozygous grizzle (G) on spread blue/black. 
Here are a couple of photos off the internet showing a similar expression.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The baldhead gene only makes the head white.
The baldhead phenotype often includes flights and tail. But other genes cause this i.m.o.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> The baldhead gene only makes the head white.
> The baldhead phenotype often includes flights and tail. But other genes cause this i.m.o.


As far as I know, the balhead gene is indeed separate from the white tail and flight often seen in baldhead breeds. Bh is closely linked (on the same chromosome) to the dominant gene that causes white flights, and consequently these genes are often inherited together. White tail is a totally separate mutation, and not linked to the other two.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

This is my first post here, I have just breed this Birmingham Roller. It has the spread factor and a bald head.

Anyone know what the nest mate could be? The parents are mealy cock and black pied hen. The hen isn't as good as the black young one though.

Bare with me while I work out how to attach the pictures!

John

View attachment 22345


View attachment 22346


View attachment 22347


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looks a lot like a red spread roller I have did before it moulted, It is now a lot redder around the neck. The light beak could be from the pied or maybe its smoky. Can you show its tail spread out?

One thing we know its that your mealy carries blue, and the Black hen carries bar. You will get reds and blues in both sexes from this pairing


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan,

Thanks for your reply. I'll take a picture of the tail tomorrow. I don't think it has a tail bar. The picture of the lavender I attached to another post and these two are from the same pair. I see you are in Christchurch. I live in Brisbane, however my 19 year old son moved to Christchurch earlier last year. We took him back to airport this morning. He came home for Christmas.

John


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

One thing we know its that your mealy carries blue, and the Black hen carries bar. You will get reds and blues in both sexes from this pairing[/QUOTE]

is this not a simple sex-linked mateing ? ash red cock x black hen ,and they will produce ash red hens and black cocks ?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

No an ash red hen with a black/blue cock would be sex linked.

This pair is not a sex linked mating in anyway.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Evan,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I'll take a picture of the tail tomorrow. I don't think it has a tail bar. The picture of the lavender I attached to another post and these two are from the same pair. I see you are in Christchurch. I live in Brisbane, however my 19 year old son moved to Christchurch earlier last year. We took him back to airport this morning. He came home for Christmas.
> 
> John


Small world, Is he into pigeons?

I was at the airport picking up my sister about an hour ago.


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

sorry again , i read it wrong , i apologize .


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Whats up with your qouting mate, Your post has qouted me saying "is this not a simple sex-linked mateing ? ash red cock x black hen ,and they will produce ash red hens and black cocks" ?

I never said that


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan, No, my son isn't into pigeons. I had a few racing pigeons as a kid and have only just got back into them after 30 years. My son's main interest is cycling, either road racing or mountain biking. He says that the roads are crap for the road bike after all your troubles in Christchurch.

I've taken a picture of the birds tail. I just remembered you asked for it spread out. I'll have to take another tomorrow if necessary.

How do you tell from these young ones that the hen carries bar?

I enjoy flying the rollers but also show my other breeds. I am keeping a few young ones locked up from breeding next year for showing the nice colours.

I have plenty of other colours to mess with as well, but relevant to this thread I would like to try and breed self blacks and more lavenders from these birds if possible?

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

These two birds are from this same pair. The bird in the first picture is the nest mate to the lavender.

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I can tell that the black hen carries bar because bar is recessive and to produce a bar you need both parents to have one copy of the gene to pass to the young, In this case the red baby is Bar based (spread by the looks of it too).

The other offspring are check which means that the black spread hen also carries check, Those checks will be split for Bar. The only strange thing is one baby looks to be check and one T pattern which would mean the hen carried bar, Check and T check which is not possible so im guessing the two birds in the last two photos are a different expression the the check allele


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks Evan,

What would be the best pairing of birds to get the most lavenders.

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Also for more lavendars and self blacks you are probably best to use the darkest checks as you get a better expression with the spread gene, The bronze in the dark check should help with black aswell.

I would try and eliminate the bar from the spread project unless you like the bar based lavendars.

Some fanciers breed reds to reds and blues to blues, I prefer to use sex linked matings to help identify the offspring, in that case you would put red hens to blue cocks. I personally like lavendar cockbirds carrying blue as you can get black flecks all over the bird, this is a matter of opinion though. To achieve this you could use a sex linked mating which in turn means all the ash red cocks would carry blue, or you could use an ash red cock and a blue hen but this is not a sex linked mating.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Thanks Evan,
> 
> What would be the best pairing of birds to get the most lavenders.
> 
> John


Ash red cock that does not carry blue and an ash red hen would mean 100% ash red offspring

An ash red cock that carries blue with an ash red hen would mean 75% ash red and 25% blues .

As for the spread factor you want one or both parents to be **** for spread meaning they have 2 doses. If this is not possible you can pair a spread bird to a non spread bird and you will get atleast 50% spread.

If Both parents are het for spread meaning they have 1 dose you will get 75% spread 25% non spread with 25% off the overall offspring being **** for spread.

Spread is dominant so any offspring or bird carrying it will show it, Any red bird with spread is lavendar as you probably already know, you can add other modifiers such as bronze, T pattern, Dirty and Sooty to make a better phenotype.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan,

What would I expect from my black and lavender young pairing? Both have spread.

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

75% would be spread.

If the lavender is the hen and the black is the cock then you will get all blue hens and all red cocks.

If the other way round then you will get hens and cocks in both colours.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks for your help Evan,

John


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Whats up with your qouting mate, Your post has qouted me saying "is this not a simple sex-linked mateing ? ash red cock x black hen ,and they will produce ash red hens and black cocks" ?
> 
> I never said that


my fault evan ,i did`nt meen to misquote you , i apologize .


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

dublin boy said:


> my fault evan ,i did`nt meen to misquote you , i apologize .


No worries mate, Thought it was a typo


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I've attached pictures of the parents. I have another question, do you think the cock bird is just a mealy? The reason I ask is because I have just breed a mealy from another pair and this cock is quite a bit dark in the wings. It has a white tail so no tail bar to see. 

I've attached the picture of the young mealy as well for comparison. I have a couple of questions regarding this mealy's breeding but will start another thread shortly.

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Mealeys can vary a lot. The first pic is def. a mealey cockbird carrying blue, Is the second pic the hen that bred the birds in the pics you posted?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Yes Evan, thats the cock and hen.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thats strange that they produced a black looking bird, Does the blak baldhead baby have a tail bar or completely black tail?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan, just checked, it only has one black tail feather, the rest are white, no tail bar completely black.

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

OK so the baby is def. spread, It is possible that the mealey father is spread as sometimes spread goes relatively un-noticed on a red bird but to the extent we have here I am not sure, I do notice the black fleck up the wing shield is very dark which could mean the mealey is spread, The other possibility is that a different spread cockbird got over the check hen, Genetically it should not be possible to produce a spread bird without one of the parents being spread. Maybe take a photo of the ash red mealey from as close as possible and put up a thread to see if the consensus thinks it may be spread, Maybe also show the hen and the spread offspring .


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I'll get some pictures in the morning. The pairs are all separated in their own breeding cages. 

John


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

i have a baldhead hen white head, white wing, white tail and black body bird and i want it to pair it to a normal looking blue bar. 

my question is do they produce baldhead? i want to produce baldhead because they are beautiful when they are flying.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

You would probably get a veriety of phenotypes but you should get something. Piebalds have can be ressesive or dominant depending on which it is. I don't know much about them but if you want baldheads breed it put and if you don't get a hit then take the best cock offspring and pair them up.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

thanks print i will try my luck.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

APF_LOFT said:


> i have a baldhead hen white head, white wing, white tail and black body bird and i want it to pair it to a normal looking blue bar.
> 
> my question is do they produce baldhead? i want to produce baldhead because they are beautiful when they are flying.


The baldhead phenotype (white head, wings and tail)is caused by 3 separate genes: baldhead, white-flight and white-tail.

Baldhead and white-flights seem to be inherited together (studies show [inconclusively] that they are linked on a chromosome). White the white tail is inherited separately.

Assuming all three these genes are dominant (which they are to my knowledge) and inherited separately (since I hate working with linkage in punnet squares) and are heterozygous:

S//s+ Bh//bh+ Wt//wt+ Wf//wf+ *x* s+//s+ bh+//bh+ wt+//wt+ wf+//wf+

This is a mating that has 4 genes to worry about, and can give 16 different combinations (all equally likely).

1. S//s+ Bh//bh+ Wf//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Black balhead, whiteflight, white tail.
2. s+//s+ Bh//bh+ Wf//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Blue balhead, whiteflight, white tail.
3. S//s+ bh+//bh+ Wf//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Black whiteflight, white tail.
4. s+//s+ bh+//bh+ Wf//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Blue whiteflight, white tail.
5. S//s+ Bh//bh+ wf+//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Black baldhead, white-tail
6. s+//s+ Bh//bh+ wf+//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Blue baldhead, white-tail
7. S//s+ bh+//bh+ wf+//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Black white-tail
8. s+//s+ bh+//bh+ wf+//wf+ Wt//wt+ - Blue white-tail
9. S//s+ Bh//bh+ Wf//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Black baldhead, whiteflight
10. s+//s+ Bh//bh+ Wf//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Blue baldhead, whiteflight
11. S//s+ bh+//bh+ Wf//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Black whiteflight
12. s+//s+ bh+//bh+ Wf//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Blue whiteflight
13. S//s+ Bh//bh+ wf+//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Black baldhead
14. s+//s+ Bh//bh+ wf+//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Blue baldhead
15. S//s+ bh+//bh+ wf+//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Black
16. s+//s+ bh+//bh+ wf+//wf+ wt+//wt+ - Blue

This is just an illustration of how complicated pied genes can be. Even when they are inherited fairly simply, and their expression is fairly well established (which is not the case for most pied genes).


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

thanks rudolph.est you encode so many word for my question.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Like I said, just breed them. Too many assumption on things for certainties.


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