# Do pigeons spread bird flu?



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

There is a suspected H5N1 case in the UK...as usual the ignorant are pointing at pigeons instead of realising that the danger lies in the transmission of the virus from infected waterfowl to domestic poultry and that the people in most danger of contracting the virus are those who slaughter, defeather and basically butcher domestic poultry.

Even then, before being a crisis it would have to infect someone that already had the flu virus, mutate and move on in its mutated form to another person.

This is the summary of a risk assessment of the potential role of various free living birds (including feral pigeons) in the spread of Avian Flu. The full report can be found at http://www.defra.gov. Look under _Avian Influenza _and then under _risk assessments_.

My understanding is that pigeons can catch it with difficulty through direct contact with dead or sick waterfowl) but so far have not been known to spread it to other pigeons, other birds or people. They are basically regarded as "dead-end hosts".

_In addition to wild waterfowl, natural infections with H5N1 virus have also
recently been reported in other free living avian species and free living and
domestic animals. The issue has been raised as to whether these species
also play a role in the epidemiology of the H5N1 virus in avian species in
general and in animals.

This risk assessment concludes:

a) The currently available evidence indicates that exposure of various free
living avian species and free living and domestic animals to HPAI H5N1
virus is likely to result in death following close and direct exposure to
the virus.

b) In epidemiological terms, this development is consistent with the
concept of a self-limiting disease (a ‘dead-end’ host).

c) The recent pattern of the virus detection in these species indicates that
these species became infected because of localised introduction and
exposure to the virus from other species rather than horizontal
transmission within the species concerned._


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Thank you for the information Cynthia - I hadn't heard of it in pigeons but as you say there is a small risk because they are a bird - but the actual risk is so tiny. I shall print out the post and read chapter and verse to some of my more ignorant colleagues and friends. 

Tania


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*defra (UK) web address for usa and internatonal*

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/disease/ai/index.htm


Also, with a (free) *googlemail.com* email account I have *google alerts*. 

With this free service I have google search: 
the news, or the web, or the web and news, or groups,
for: 
*avian flu* (or whatever term or terms you enter), and get an email 
either once a day, as it happens, or once a week.

I am now geting a daily list of ten to fifteen current articles pertaining to avian flu. If the same article appears in several newspapers or news feeds, the list shows this.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> My understanding is that pigeons can catch it with difficulty through direct contact with dead or sick waterfowl) but so far have not been known to spread it to other pigeons, other birds or people. They are basically regarded as "dead-end hosts".
> 
> [/I]


Cynthia, that's what I've read, too. My pigeon manuals and several recent articles by avian vets all state that pigeons are very resistant to avian influenza. The most recent article I read (in Pigeon Debut magazine) stated they can _sometimes _catch H5N1 but as you pointed out, they don't readily pass it on. I'm more concerned about what will happen to pigeons, both feral and domestic, because of people panicking over the disease than I am about them being threatened by the disease itself.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Oh, good! It has been touched on briefly in the BBC News question and answer series:

*Question: I have handled an injured pigeon, am I in danger?

Answer: PIgeons are not thought to be carriers. But again, it is best to wash your hands

*http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4883794.stm#spread


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I just caught a news clip on TV tonight about a case of H5N1 in England. They are doing exactly what I predicted they would do. Visiting bird keepers, fowl farms, chicken coops etc within *a geographical radius *of the outbreak. Just something to keep in mind as I said before. This is the normal process used by gov't to stem or eradicate problems. Cooped pigeons are/will be at risk of destruction from gov't folks if the situation looks like it is getting out of control....

Cameron


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Birdmom4ever said:


> ........ I'm more concerned about what will happen to pigeons, both feral and domestic, because of people panicking over the disease than I am about them being threatened by the disease itself.


 God help us, if people start dropping dead here in the USA, there will be a wholesale slaughter of back yard flocks of anything that move. And the bodies and structures will then be burned to the ground, and then they will ask a few questions, later.

There will be storm troopers...I mean health officials, knocking on doors asking "Any pigons here " ? Think I am kidding ? What measures do you think "Home Land Security" will take, when they start talking of 3 or 4,000,000 dead Americans ? No bird anywhere, will be safe !


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Warren and Cameron, that's exactly my fear. My neighbors all know I have pigeons, so I'm also concerned about being "turned in" by an anxious neighbor. I'm sure if there's an outbreak the government will destroy birds first and ask questions later, as Warren said. Last I heard they expected avian flu to reach the West Coast first. The END debacle in Southern California a few years ago is still fresh in my mind.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I realize that this is largely paranoia, but reality says that here in USA, all that is necessary, is for the secretary of agriculture, to issue some emergency proclamation, and any living bird in a certain zone, could be terminated with extreme prejudice. Any interference with government workers carrying out this task, will be met by the full force of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies. We all know, that if need be, this can mean using tanks, and burning you out if necessary.


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

I live in Dundee, east Scotland, which is 20 miles from the outbreak in Cellardyke, Fife. Here is the link for our local newspaper if anyone is interested in reading about the situation over here.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/04/07/newsstory8204146t0.asp

Lindi


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Rooster2312 said:


> ..Here is the link for our local newspaper...
> Lindi


Thanks for the link, Lindi. I always find it interesting to see what the local paper says on something like this.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Lindi. 

As I have over 50 pigeons I checked the registration requirements and confirmed that pigeons are only classified as poultry if they are bred for meat.

I have been making a point of reading the more florid nationals and even they are taking a sensible approach. One had a bit from Myriam Stoppard that answered the question about how humans can catch bird flu and the answer was the it can pass from waterfowl to chickens and then to humans, but with difficulty. 

Hopefully that sensible approach will stop people from panicking and thinking that the skies are filled with birds carrying a virus that is easily transmissible to humans. 

There was a mention that people are already and unnecessarily slaughtering back yard flocks, I just hope that they don't do this with aviary birds etc.

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

From Q & A on avian flu, April 7th:



> Q What should I do about pigeons?
> 
> Microbiologist Prof Hugh Pennington says that residents should not worry about pigeons unless they are in very close proximity. He says: If they were nested in your front room and they were dying, I would be concerned. Other than that, I wouldn't worry.
> 
> At present, pigeons are unlikely carriers and pigeons simply flying close to people are not thought to be a risk. It is, however, wise to carry our basic hygiene procedures if in contact with pigeon droppings.



http://uk.news.yahoo.com/07042006/17/bird-flu-answers-key-questions.html

John


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I don't know for a certainty what the future will bring and I guess no one else does either. I do think though that it is a mistake to allow too many people (and especially gov't agencies) to know that you have, or are keeping birds of any kind.

Here at pigeon-talk we are able to source commentary that supports the conclusion that pigeons are not a health risk insofar as bird-flu is concerned. The general public is not, unfortunately so interested in our fine tuned comments, proofs, arguments and logic. When push comes to shove and the **** hits the fan, joe average will do and believe whatever he sees and reads in the press. And the press is not our friend as we well know after reading the ignorant published stories about "pigeons with their beaks cut off". 

For those who recall, a so-called RSPCA expert determined that a disease had caused the problem with those birds. Thus exaserbating and complicating a very difficult problem.

I think my point is, and has always been, that our voices are in the minority. What we read and write here, what we say to comfort ourselves is not in any way sufficient to protect our birds if and when it all comes down. Other steps need to be taken. 

Of course the bird-flu epidemic has not yet happened for people. It is however already happening for migratory birds and domestics like chickens. Let's not be deluded that joe-public will make the distinctions that we do (here at pigeon-talk) about which birds are safe and which are a threat when H5N1 arrives on the North American continent. Or even the British Isles. Joe public will react according to whatever ignorant thing gets published as he has no personal involvement with birds of any sort and will not be ready, willing or able to discern truth from fiction.

That is the threat in a nutshell. I have encouraged more discussion on this issue every time avian-influenza has come up on PT. I guess I have not come right out and said it, till now, that we must all be prepared to address bad information in the press as it happens. Be ready with arguments, proofs, articles, thesese, facts, information etc etc, etc. to counter the bad press that is sure to follow. We may be a small group but we can nonetheless mobilize and be prepared for battle should it arise. 

Our strength will be in our ability to get our own thoughts across to the media before any ignorant ideas become mainstays of the public domain to be repeated and spread by media consumers everywhere. That is the nub of it really. Being like boyscouts, getting our ducks in a row and being prepared to deflect any bad press once it arises.

And it will arise. I have seen it first-hand. So have some of you. Let's not underestimate the power of the media when it comes to our friends.

(I am not on a soapbox incidentally. Just speaking the plain truth about what we are faced with.)

Cameron


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## The pigeon man (Mar 13, 2006)

Do you guys think if it ever gets to the united states (seattle,washington) we will have to get rid of our pijjies and all other fowl?? I hope not


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Cameron -

You have valid points about what we know, what the media may say and what the public cares (or doesn't care) about.

A difficulty in refuting sensationalist media statements is that, unless someone has a lot of 'clout', any sane and reasoned counter to them is most unlikely to get the same prominence. I'm not being negative or defeatist, just stating how it is:

"Pigeons could spread flu in city centers!" is news - "Flu: pigeons pose no threat!" is not. 

As I've seen, the recourse to anti-pigeon media is mostly through letters columns, TV channel comments pages and the like - how many of us, individually or collectively, can get a headline in a paper? The statement from the microbiologist I posted really debunks the pigeon hysteria type stuff, but how many people will even see it? I only saw it because someone on another pigeon forum happened to pick it up and quote it.

The up side, in the UK, is that there is one body dealing with the situation (DEFRA) and, as Cynthia has said, they have stated the view that 'other' free-living avian species (i.e., other than waterfowl) would seem to be in much the same position as humans, in that they could get sick and die from the virus if in close contact with 'carrier' species, but not transmit it to others of their own species. Whatever the media may say, DEFRA makes the decisions. The danger may be from local authorities - the idiots like Ken Livingstone - as I see it, doing their own thing as regards ferals with whatever excuse they can come up with.

For N America, I know little about who does what in the USA and what organizations have ultimate authority regarding a possible outbreak, and even less about Canada. Has the CDC in the US made any statement covering the 'other avians', for instance?

As you say, Cameron, it's getting the message across effectively that is important. Anyone with ideas on how to get the right attention? Only thing I can think of right now is prominent (and expensive!) advertising space getting the point across!

John


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I am not suggesting that anyone break the law. Goodness sakes, just put a sign on your door and say...come and inspect. Best legal way to go, is AU loft certification. 

Otherwise take a lesson from what the Janssen Brothers were to have reportly done, to secure their birds from the invading Nazis, who viewed the Racing pigeon as a vital war asset. 

Personally, I have gone as far as setting up lofts in different parts of the USA.
Too many dangers with having all your eggs in any one basket, things like fire, theft, illness, bird flu etc. can happen.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*National Rag*

In my National paper today ( Front page headline - Prince Harry at Lap Dancing club - is that news? ) the basic advice re bird flu was that a lot of people had been ringing this helpline about dead birds, which they have been sensibly advised that birds die every single day from illness ( not deadly bird flu), old age, predator attack etc. They did say that if you found a dead swan, duck or goose, not to touch it and ring the helpline or if you found 3 dead birds together of any ilk then to proceed with caution ( I guess pheasants being blasted out of the sky may be exempt with a ton of buckshot through them!!!) but much to my delight on such a horrible illness, there was no mention of pigeons being a danger.

I still went and fed the ducks, geese and swans today, and the pigeons and the lovely old heron with some tasty mackerel - It's all media hype !!! And we have had this all before unfortunately with Mad Cow Disease and Foot and Mouth - of course we need to be careful, but when it's a proper threat. This is one swan with bird flu - 15 other dead birds were examined from the same area and not one of them had the deadly strain.....

So as I understand it at the moment we have one dead swan in the whole of the Bristish Isles with the virus. Correct me if I am wrong.

But for all those out there with bird collections, aviaries and sanctuaries, I hope and pray that this disease doesn't become wide spread and some misinformed goverment individuals decide on a gung-ho approach to exterminate. 

Tania


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Honestly,

I really have to laugh when I re-read my own posts a day later. Even I think I sound like I am going over the top sometimes. And I was sounding so stern too! Like somebody's mom. Anyway, I wasn't meaning to criticise anyone here or our efforts. I just worry about the whole bird flu thing and how it is represented in the media. And it is so darn hard to fight back if they start getting it wrong. 

If one dead bird results in a 10 kilometer "exclusion" zone in England, what will be the reaction if hundreds or thousands of birds contract the illness and it is more widespread. You know, hysteria sets in pretty quick.

Anyway sorry about the little rant of mine. I must be taking myself too seriously lately. I will have to lighten up a bit I think. 

Cameron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Cameron,

I also tend to swing from panic to optimism depending on what I have heard and read.

This link to the control measures that can be adopted might be of interest to you.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/disease/ai/policy/ctrl-measures.htm#1

Terry mentioned the importance of biosecurity in another post: being able to prove that your birds have been isolated from any birds that could carry the infection is very important. You should also be able to prove that they have not been at risk from people carrying the infection in to them on their boots or clothing.

Remember those pigeons that were destroyed in Australia for having avian flu antibodies in their blood. Just the fact that they had been sufficiently exposed to develop antibodies was fatal to them.

How the feral flocks will fare is a different question. Here they test samples of wild birds from within a certain radius of the place the dead swan was found. Whether they will test pigeons and whether they will destroy whole flocks if one sick pigeon is found is not known. THis is the comment in that link relating to wild birds:
_The AHA provides for destruction of wild birds. Limits on the use of this power *include need to show spread *to other birds and need to consult with the Nature Conservancy Council_. 

I am reluctant to release rescues at the moment.

Cynthia


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

A couple of things that might be helpful are to join your local pigeon club and develop a good working relationship with an avian vet. I've gotten helpful, up-to-date info at club meetings and I've heard both the AU and NPA are doing all they can to dispel the notion that pigeons spread bird flu. The officers in my club aren't too worried about this and believe the media is engaging in fear-mongering. 

My vet knows me well, has been to my house and seen how I keep my birds. I don't know if that will save my birds in the event of a widespread panic and "depopulation" effort, but I like to think it will give me some chance of establishing with authorities that my birds are well-cared for and have no contact with wild birds.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Bird Flu fears subsiding?*

Just watched the national news - seems that we are getting in a panic over possibly nothing. True the migrating swan recently found does have the deadly strain of bird flu,but in the 1101 birds tested since February in the UK, only this bird has and still is the only bird with the deadly strain. They are hoping that it is contained - I hope so too. 

Tania x


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Camrron said:


> ...sorry about the little rant of mine...
> Cameron


Cameron, I think your "rant" was well thought out and brought up several important points. Lightness and fluff will not protect our birds. We need to do what we can. Thank you for sharing!


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## Steelers Army (Mar 3, 2006)

*what and how ???*

can you tell the symtoms of this bird flu? I hear all this flu here and there but how do you know if they got the flu, is it like they are so active flying then drop from the air or resting then fall down? I mean can any 1 say how can we see this flu in our birds...I dont want to bring each one of my birds to the vet just to find out my birds are not affected by flu and pay some money, is there any signs that can we know or things that the birds do...I be in touch in this post....

Oliver


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Oliver,

Here is a good article about avian flu: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/avian_influenza/en/

It is my understanding that while pigeons can become infected with the virus, they are largely asymptomatic .. don't show symptoms and don't die from it. Poultry and waterfowl appear to be the types of birds that the virus is most deadly in. 

Terry


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Exactly Terry,

And the most affected seem to be (sadly) ducks and geese and other migratory birds in that family. Domestic chickens and geese too of course are at a special disadvantage because of their circumstances of being housed in closed quarters where cross contamination risks are at the highest. A single illness in one bird [could] rapidly spread to the whole facility and result in the extermination of all birds once it is discovered. We have seen this scenario played out over and over again on TV and the internet as H5N1 is spread across the world.

I am simply dismayed by how the situation is being dealt with, especially in Asia, where birds are being bagged-up live and buried or burned based on fear and paranoia alone. I cannot begin to tell you how upsetting this is for me after watching their practices on TV.

Here in North America at least, and also in Europe, sick (or suspected sick birds) are _at the minimum _gassed first and not burned or buried alive. None of it is acceptable though. We are talking thousands of creatures here not hundreds. It will be milions before it's all over. 

For the regular reader of the daily news though, anyone trying to ignore this as it happens just has their head buried in the sand in my opinion. So in the future, we can just call a spade a spade and discuss the facts as they are occurring. At least here on PT where people know of what they speak. No candy coating needed at all here. (_Not that anyone here did, I just think the real situation as it is occurring should be out in the open. We want to stay positive here at pigeon-talk but the current truths about bird-flu demand we discuss this issue in open and frank wording_).

Thanks for your link Terry. It is interesting to note that pigeons are susceptible to H5N1 (as are humans) but are not necessarily carriers or deliverers of the illness to others. Pigeons as I understand it can contract the illness but do not succumb to it either except in extreme lab conditions. They have some resistance to the illness that other birds do not.

Hi John,

Your comments are very much apreciated, my ideas follow,

I agree that most of us could not get a headline on our own unless we did some fame or infamy of one sort or another. My own thoughts related to media information that we might see in the future. About how certain considerations related to pigeon-keeping differed and how we might fight back. That's why I urged everyone to get your ducks in a row and know your stuff now before it all hits the fan. Which of course it *will* do according to everything we are told daily. It is better to be "informed and ready" than "afraid and wary" in my mind. 

However, I think you have to be tougher in the British Isles than we have to be here in North America. In your land, where sensationalist media (famously) rule the land and the airwaves, where gaining or having clout is a hard fought battle for the average guy, the daily media battle can be fierce. It is not quite such a hard fought battle over here. That's my opinion and world view anyway. 

The thing is, the media folks in charge of writing columns on a certain subject or theme are human too. We have to know who they are so we can address our concerns to them. When they get it wrong I think we need to stand and be counted and tell them they are in error. You may be only one voice in your community but if you don't speak up when the media folks talk nonsense, then it is just tacit approval of what they have written. They are just people like us, they get things wrong too at times. But this is ahead of the curve. The crisis is not here and it may not come. I am just saying, if it does arrive, let's be ready with our information, that's all. All the best John, Hope what I wrote makes sense, if not, I will write it again from a new point of view till I get it right

Terri, 

You are welcome of course as always. I do rant a little and almost always regret it later but it's nice when you write to me and say it's OK. You seem to know my feelings are heartfealt and my intentions are not bad when I get onto an important subject like this.


Hi Cathy! 

We do have a pigeon club here (so I am told) but I don't belong to it. I like your idea though. I also agree that the media is involved in fear mongering. It's all about the panic story of the day it seems. Last month it was wild dogs and dog-bites, a few days later, West Nile was taking over the world, then we got a whole week about how old folks could not get health care and liver transplants were backed up three years or more. Is it true or is it just the media doing it's typical frenzy over one isolated idea? I don't know sometimes, especially when it is a story about a subject I am not familiar with. What I know is that if I start seeing stories about pigeons causing bird-flu I will be well-armed with information to go to the local media folk and advise them they are *wrong.*


Cynthia,

Thanks for passing on that site in your last post. I read it, I read it twice. I might be dumb but I will have to read it again. Some of the terminology they used was foreign to me. A lot of the articles made sense to me too though. I am going back to read the rest now.

Talk to you all later!

Cameron


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Cameron and all,

I have lived through Exotic Newcastle Disease in Southern California where almost 4 Million birds were killed and that included an approximate 100,000 backyard and pet birds .. ducks, geese, pigeons, parrots, parakeets, cockatiels .. if it had feathers and was in the radius of a known case .. the birds got killed. Only those people who could prove good biosecurity saved their birds if they were in a radius and only then with a huge fight.

The flu ain't gonna get you or probably not your birds either, but the "cure" will. I will say again .. you better have good biosecurity, be able to prove it, and don't just think this "might" pass you by .. if there is a known case within your radius (that was 1 mile in the US during END), then your birds are at extreme risk.

Please, people, don't mess with this. Get your biosecurity working .. I will refer you again to http://www.cocka2.com .. then click on the END link and READ IT ALL!

Terry


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Cameron and all,
> 
> Please, people, *don't mess with this.* Get your biosecurity working .. I will refer you again to http://www.cocka2.com .. then click on the END link and READ IT ALL!
> 
> Terry



Wise words Terry, Thanks for bringing up that link. At times I feel I am a lone wolf howling in the jungle. Why should we be any different than those suffering overseas? Why should the outcome vary that much for us here at home? What makes us (or our birds) more special in the scheme of things. Nothing does. 

Time really is of the essence now. We are deluding ourselves to think it will be OK when in fact *it is not OK at all*. The bell will toll for those who ignore the warnings.

Cameron


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I haven't even read this whole article yet. But in today's paper it states that researchers in Claremont Ca. find building blocks for Tamiflu in pods from the sweetgum tree. It states the pods are rich in shikimic acid. It says that the shikimic is the starting material needed to manufacture the compound Tamiflu, the drug used in the defense against the H5N1 avian flu virus and other strains of the flu. This research team used a blender, conventual oven,
and methanol to extract shikimic acid from the seeds. From a pound of seeds they squeezed 2/10 of an ounce. I better finish reading this, but the just of it is that people were hourding the vacine. It says that the U.S. has these trees in spotted locations, but that the Claremont Colleges has them which is right up the street from me.

Does anyone know what they look like. This looks like a job for Pidgey and Phil, they can do any thing that ol college research team is doing.

I'll finish this article and report later.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

O.K. here we go "Shikimic acid is running low" The article says it is good to know that there are other sources. Dr.Michael Lai professor of molecular microbiology says "that there is only one company with the intellectual property rights and that other countries are not allowed to manufacture without their consent" Wow! Now we have a monopoly on the right to manufacture the drug. They have been extracting the ingrdient from the star anice mainly found in China. The seeds that the research team used were all found on campus here in Claremont.

If anyone is interested this article is in the Inland Valley Daily Bulletin dated April 10, 2006. 

Cameron,

I also went through the same thing Terry was speaking of. Helicopters went over daily looking for stagnit water or any sign of sick birds. I would drive down the street and see dead crows laying on the ground. At the end of that summer I saw no crows. To top that, because human deaths were reported... my neighbors bought their kids be-be guns and allowed them to shoot any birds that came in their yard.

The kids behind me started shooting sparrows, so I told them that because I had birds... I had to report any dead birds I saw...and that those birds had better have died from a disease or they were going to have alot of explaining to do to the authorities.

I really didn't want anyone to know I had birds, especially the authorities.

No one could sell birds. All of the feed stores had to quarentine their birds. 

We just now are starting to get back our crows.

Every virus is something to be stern over. So if you want to act like my mom, go right ahead.

Feather


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