# Breeding a Black Racing Pigeon??



## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

If I have a black hen whos parents are both black as well and I pair her to a BB splash, will I ever get black offspring? What about black to a rec red? Thanks!


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

i had a black with a BB with white flights ... and got a black with white flights .. then also a BB from the same nest 


then had a Black with a silver and got BB.... you tell me


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Is black Recessive?? or is just blue? Maybe Becky can help and shine a little light on us.

please move this thread to the genetic section.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

black to the blue should be 50/50
black to the red should also be 50/50 but in stead of red u should get ash

black is a spread


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Someone can correct me if I am wrong here. What you will get from the breeding will in part depend on whether your blacks are heterozygous or homozygous for the spread gene?
Spread (in this case black) is a dominant gene. A black may have one or both genes for the Spread pattern. If your black is mated with a blue bar you are likely to get some black progeny. The number of blacks will be largely dependent upon whether the black has one or two copies of the Spread gene.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

yes i have a cock cock that will throw out only black and both of his parent are black


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

To answer the question regarding black with recessive red, I don't believe you would get any blacks from such a mating. The offspring would all be reds of some type. Not recessive reds as that would require the recessive gene from both the cock and hen. The type of red would be dependent upon whether the black hen is heterozygous or homozygous for the spread gene. I am not a genetics expert, so if I am wrong to some degree hopefully some expert can correct.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

ejb3810 said:


> To answer the question regarding black with recessive red, I don't believe you would get any blacks from such a mating. The offspring would all be reds of some type. Not recessive reds as that would require the recessive gene from both the cock and hen. The type of red would be dependent upon whether the black hen is heterozygous or homozygous for the spread gene. I am not a genetics expert, so if I am wrong to some degree hopefully some expert can correct.


I think everything you are saying is correct. I'll add to that. The spread gene will 'spread' the color of the tail bar all over the bird. So if your baby is red in color and has the spread gene passed to it, it will be a solid red bird. There are other contributing factors of course which may be hidden.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Respectively the last two replys have a lot of errors. ejb310 the offspring will only be red if the rec. red is actually an (ash) red based bird. Black is BLUE spread. If it carries two copies of spread you will probably get all black youngsters (assuming the black does not carry rec. red hidden). If the rec. red bird is ash red based you could also get lavender youngsters (ash red plus spread). If the black only carries one copy of spread you could also get some plain blue youngsters. There are a lot of unknowns with the parents. Rec. red birds have two copies of rec. red gene but you don't know what else they have......that bird could be red or blue....barred, spread, checked....who knows without a pedigree. Spread birds has blue plus spread.....you don't know if it has one or two copies of the spread. If it only has one copy you don't know what other pattern gene is on the other chromosome (barred? check? T-pattern?). If you don't mated your black bird with the BB splash you would probably get some splashed youngsters (and possibly some unsplashed youngsters too) in black (and once again if there is only one copy of the spread gene also splashed/unsplashed blues).


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Too much genetic color argle bargle.I say put her with the BB splash.I think you'll get atleast one Black.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Josepe, I believe they were asking for "genetic color argle bargle"

If the bird has one dose spread and is put to any other blue bird you will get 50% spread birds, ie blacks. No point talking about ash red as its irrelevant to your pairing.

Due to both parents of the bird being black it is possible that the bird will only produce black young, there was a 1:4 chance the black bird picked up two doses of the spread gene. The spread gene is dominant so if a bird carries two copies all its young will have one copy and therefore be spread.

A black to a recessive red would only produce recessive reds if the black bird has the spread gene. So take a recessive red, Pair it to a black. Take a black offspring and pair that to the recessive red bird. This final pairing will produce spreads and recessive reds.

At the end of the day though, If you are racing and want a bit of colour, Keep putting your blacks and recessive reds to the best birds you have avail. once they are up to scratch start pairing them together.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Short answer, Atleast 50% of the young will be black


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Just as I predicted.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

you will get blacks ..no worries 
blacks are pretty in the sky


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Josepe said:


> Just as I predicted.


u said atleast 1. thats different to 50%


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

With a round of Two,One=50%


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

But you will not get one from each round, Its a 50% odd so you could breed four birds that are non black then 8 blacks, Or you could go 4 rounds getting one of each. But they are different things nonetheless


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

Matt, I know quite a bit about genetics. I will say there are some correct answers here but there are a lot of speculations and errors in information on some of the replies above. "Woodnative" hit it on the head and is 100% correct. In show birds with blacks it is more common to have blacks that are homozygous (double dose) of the Spread gene. "Spread" is the dominant color modifier which is what makes your blue-based bird a black. Dominant in this case means that if one dose of the gene is present then you will see its effect in the outward color of the offspring. As opposed to "recessive" modifier like recessive red which needs two doses (homozygous) of the recessive gene to affect the outward color of the offspring.

Mating a homozyous Spread (black) to any color will produce nothing but Spread babies, however many black racers are usually heterozygous for Spread meaning they have one dose of it and when mated to a blue of any pattern can still produce blues... From looking at the parents or pedigree of the black bird if one of its parents is a blue then you know your black is heterozygous for Spread and only has one dose. If both parents were also black then it's more likely it's homozygous Spread but still doesn't guarantee it...

Spread on blue or brown creates a black or solid brown bird, respectively. However, spread on an ash-red (red velvet, check or silver in racers) does not produce a solid red bird, it produces a Strawberry or Lavender depending on what people call it. Spread and ash-red causes the pigment to clump differently and it does not create the same solid color look as it does in blue or brown.

Keep in mind recessive red is just a red coating that can hide any underlying base color. Base color being blue/black, ash-red or brown (browns are fairly uncommon in racers). You can have a recessive red bird that is blue underneath and if you mate a blue-based red to a blue or black bird that is not recessive red and is also not carrying recessive red then you will just get your normal looking blues. However, those babies from that mating would be carrying one dose of recessive red and would throw recessive reds in the future if mated to another red or another bird carrying recessive red.

The "splash" has nothing to do with the basic color genetics here except that it mixes in another dominant color modifier which is the "Pied" gene. So if you mate your black to a bb splash you will probaby get blacks, black splashes, blues and blue splashes of various checks and bars depending on the underlying pattern in your black...

If this doesn't sound confusing to you then I'd say just go for it and let us know what you produce! Black on any blue bar or splash should get you more blacks (or splashes). To darken the black even more try mating it to a dark blue check (T-Pattern, velvet).


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Matt M said:


> Matt, I know quite a bit about genetics. I will say there are some correct answers here but there are a lot of speculations and errors in information on some of the replies above. "Woodnative" hit it on the head and is 100% correct. In show birds with blacks it is more common to have blacks that are homozygous (double dose) of the Spread gene. "Spread" is the dominant color modifier which is what makes your blue-based bird a black. Dominant in this case means that if one dose of the gene is present then you will see its effect in the outward color of the offspring. As opposed to "recessive" modifier like recessive red which needs two doses (homozygous) of the recessive gene to affect the outward color of the offspring.
> 
> Mating a homozyous Spread (black) to any color will produce nothing but Spread babies, however many black racers are usually heterozygous for Spread meaning they have one dose of it and when mated to a blue of any pattern can still produce blues... From looking at the parents or pedigree of the black bird if one of its parents is a blue then you know your black is heterozygous for Spread and only has one dose. If both parents were also black then it's more likely it's homozygous Spread but still doesn't guarantee it...
> 
> ...


Matt, Just remember there are many pied genes and not all are dominant. Some are co dom, some are recessive.

Atleast 50% of the young will be spread sums it up without all the argle bargle some people seem to hate.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Thank you everybody for your input and help!! If i have any more questions as the breeding season begins for me, I will continue this thread.


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