# Growth in crop



## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Hi I have two baby Pigeons. One of the parents was killed by a Rat and the other parent gave up on the babies so I had to take them in. One of the babies came in with really bad crop stop and I have had the hardest time with him. though everytime he gets the crop stop it takes 24 hours of flushing his crop with an electrolyte mixture. (THis is the first time I have ever not lost the pigeon to crop stop) His sister is fine and has had no problems. The day b4 yesterday after another round of Crop stop I was massaging His crop and I found a peanut sized growth. It has been two days and It grew bigger over night and is now getting swollen around the growth. 

It appears to be attached to His Neck bone. It is hard. Untill today it has not hindered his feedings. but due to the swelling I can only get half of what I used to Tube him in him. 

I know that hopes are slim expecially b/c I dont have an Avian vet within a 3 hour radius. But I just need advice on 

1 If I should feed him somehting diffrent then Kaytee 

2. has anyone else experianced this? 

I have started him on Baytril. Your thoughts,Ideas and Prayers are welcome. 


His name is Skyler. 
this is him and his sister Kiara









this is Skyler


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you know what canker is?


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

No, but we are researching it right now.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

He is swelling up now. fast. He went from just being able to feel swelling to being able to see it


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Definitely start with a canker medicine .. that would be Metronidazole, Spartrix (which is Carnidazole), Ronidazole .. 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If that puffy growth feels solid, you've got a world serious case of canker to deal with. If that is the case, you MUST start immediately with a canker med such as I listed.

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

the puffyness is not solid, its just swollen and soft. 

I cant get the meds. Its midnight.

the olny hardness is the lump a a little bigger than a peanut behind the swelling


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You've got a life threatening/ending situation here .. I can stay on for a little bit but not too much longer. You HAVE to get some meds for this.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ok, we're "walking" on each others posts .. can you look down the throat and see what that is?

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

I really would if I could. 

Its not in the crop. I think its behind it growing on here spine (neck bone) Its not free floating. it feels attached to the spine


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

From the last pictures I would guess that there is a large canker growth on the right side of the neck just past the back of the mouth. I would think that you might be able to see some of it, but perhaps not. Anyway, I think you have a big, big canker problem there to deal with. The Baytril won't get it .. you need the "zole" drugs. The canker does grow into the flesh, so it's not free floating.

How can we best help you, Cindy? I've got to go check on my critical cares and get to bed, but I don't want to just leave you hanging.

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Im Mandie  I didnt see anything down her crop. 

If he makes it through the night. where do I get the meds?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Naturesgift said:


> Im Mandie  I didnt see anything down her crop.
> 
> If he makes it through the night. where do I get the meds?


Well, a vet will have them, but if you have a big pet store or fish store .. go and get the metronidazole/flagyl from there. Best to get from the vet, but if you can't, then go get the Fishzole or whatever you can find at the petstore that is the equivalent of Metronidazole/Flagyl.

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok thnkyou. Is there a way to help him live through the night? 

Ill ask my vet. we have a small town petstore which may have it.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good luck with the little one(s) .. I've GOT to go at this point and take care of mine. I'll check in the AM and am hoping for a happy update on your babies.

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok thank you


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Naturesgift said:


> ok thnkyou. Is there a way to help him live through the night?


Well, they are tough little beings. I don't know of anything I could safely suggest to assure that this little one makes it. If s/he doesn't, then we have to just be satisfied that it was warm, comfortable, and loved at the end.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Naturesgift, 


They can sometimes develop an Abcess, which may occur anywhere in the Esophagus or Crop, sometimes, the Abcess will seem very soft when hydrated, or, more firm, when de-hydrated...and to my understanding, an abcess of this sort is a very serious matter, and not easily remedy'd with drugs.

If an Abcess, or Canker, hapen to perforate or erode a hole in the Esophagus of Crop, then food and water can pass through the perforation, appearing to 'fill' the Crop, but, instead, remain stuck between the Crop and their outer skin, and this, if it happens to occur, can create the impression of a 'full' Crop which is not emptying well...and of food and water which is stuck there and not passing to his digestive system.


Canker of course is a more common occurance than Abcesses are, and it generally responds very well to appropriate medications, such as the ones Terry mentioned for you to get.


Canker usually ( but not always, ) causes 'yellowish' Urates or yellowish and liquidy Urates...so, are you seeing anything like that? or are the afflicted Baby's Urates 'white'?



Crop Stasis, as such, is usually a consequence of feeding a chilled Baby, or, of feeding a formula which does not remain thin enough in the Crop to pass on well...as formula tends to loose hydration in the Crop, sometimes leaving a contoured, impalpable, thick 'slug' which begins to ferment or become spoiled, causing a Yeast or Candida condition to occur in the Crop, and or also occuring further down, effecting the muscles and functions, and causing the digestive system to slow or stop.


Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar will work well to remediate some kinds of Candida or Yeast problems effecting the Crop, making a solution of four Tablespoons to the Gallon of Water, and allowing the Bird to fast a few days, while either tubing in or encouraging him to drink the solution.


Also, 'Medistat' or 'Nystatin' can be used, and these are medicines...


Baking Soda also can be used but not in combination with the ACV of course, but others will have to say how to use it, since it is known to relieve or correct a static Crop, when caused by chilled Babys or food spoiling in the Crop, or other consequencese of chill or formula problems.


Your little one, as far as I can imagine, either has a Tumor, an Abcess, or Canker, whether or not he has suffered any Crop issues arising from chill or from formula thickening and spoiling in his Crop...so, the ACV-Water regimen would certainly not hurt, were you to wish to use it for his Water and for formula-mixing....while also continueing to address the 'lump' issue, whatever it is.

If poops are not matching food intake, I would think to discontinue the feedings for the time being untill other problems are identified or corrected.


Let us know what the poops and urates have been looking like?


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Was the 'lump' present from when you first got him?


And, or, how have you been feeding him, since getting them?



Phil
l v


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

What a scary situation. I'm sorry you both have to go through it.  Hopefully he is doing better today?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

maryjane said:


> Hopefully he is doing better today?


Not likely. Usually, canker in this presentation is a one-way ticket downhill unless anti-canker medications are administered very quickly and decisively. In such a case, it's always a possibility that major damage has been done to the esophagus, crop and airway, too. This canker is actually not in the crop per se (the part that's showing in the picture), it's much higher in the esophagus just below what passes for a chin in a pigeon. Given the speed that it's grown, it may very quickly apply enough pressure to the trachea to suffocate the bird or just eat through it. Also, the esophagus can be destroyed enough that food may leak out into the area under the skin where it doesn't belong. Phil once had a youngster that the skin in front of the crop just rotted away and food and water just started leaking out.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I would love to hear how this beautiful baby is doing.

I didn't realize that canker could grow that fast? 

Like Phil, would like to hear how he is being fed - maybe this has a bearing on what is going on.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...I got in a Baby Dove one time, maybe ten days old...which had a mysterious 'lump' more or less high in her Crop, and to one side a little.


When hydrated, the lump seemed to go away, because it was soft then...and, it would become more palpable as it somehow gave off the Water it had absorbed...after a few days, there was leakage apperent on the front of her skin, and, taking her to the Vet for his evaluation, long story short, whatever it was had consumed her Crop and esophagus, and was causing a decay of her skin there on the front of her Crop.

Neither the Vet nor I felt it was Canker, and the abcess or whatever one would call it, was about a roughly 1/2 inch sized roundish slightly rubbery form...inside was merely a dryish greyish-white material which was sort of frangible or would break apart easily if pressed. And it did not seem to have anything in it as for a foreign object of any kind...and did not have any Oder which either of us noticed anyway.

I had been treating her for Canker...so, possibly it was Canker which had changed color or consistancy from the medications, or, was something else.


Anyway, I do not know how, but at least some of the food and water had been getting through...but of course with her esophagus and crop missing, getting through was not very direct or effecient.


Definitely, any odd lumps in their Throats or Crops are signaling some kind of serious thing going on...

Canker is likely the most usual thing to be seen I suppose, but also, I think other things can do it, and I do not have any idea what those things are, aside from that abcesses can assume various forms depending on how the Host Body is trying to deal with sequestering some unwanted Organism or localized infection...and how that will effect the tissues or Organs in that immediate area.


Phil
l v


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear Skyler didn't make it. At least he was safe and warm with you holding him. You did your best and that's what matters.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

pdpbison I think this is similar. 

I stayed up all night with him. I held him in my hands and prayed and prayed. He passed this morning. betweem 8-9

The swelling turned to black liquid that got so full it began to seep out of the skin. his feathers began to come off with the wet. there was no smell. His breathing remained normal. as did his actions. 

I sat on our couch with him untill 4am. then I went to work. I came home and the swelling had gone down and the crop looked to be emptying of the black liquid. His eyes were weird. I knew it was the end. I fell asleep holding him around 8:30 and I awoke to my mom taking him out of my hands b/c he had passed.




















ok If you do not have a strong stomach. please stop here. A Rehabber friend of mine asked me to dissect his crop. I took pics. 

I will continue in a new post.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok THis is the growth







'

This is what was in the growth









Now the black "fluid" 










though the flash changed the color. It was the color of the inside of a chicken liver. 

Neither the growth nor the black stuff had a smell. 

Also Note. 

He had no food in his crop. He only had electrolytes yesterday.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Was the 'lump' present from when you first got him?
> 
> 
> And, or, how have you been feeding him, since getting them?
> ...



The day I got him. He had terrible crop stop that I thought was due ot being out in the cold without his parents. I warmed him then began to flush him with electrolytes. He recovered within 24 hrs. 

I was not aware of the lump the day I got him. 

I have been Tubing Both him and his sister. (I dont really know the sexes my lil sisters named them so one was a boy and one was girl  )


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Mandie,

I'm sorry to hear that you lost your little one. I know how much it meant for him to have comfort when he was so ill. Thank you for the care you gave him.
I looked at the dissection photos and they look very much like the pictures of a dissection of canker in one of my pigeon books. Canker can grow quite rapidly and spread like wildfire once it gets going. I would definitely treat the other birds for canker and get some of the meds to have on hand since you live so far from easy access to them.

I know how hard it is to loose a little one. Thank you for sharing as you did for it will help all of us if we encounter a similar problem with our birds in the future.

Margaret


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Darn, Naturesgift...even though we had a poor feeling about his recovery, we still hate to see that he didn't make it. 

I am so glad you were holding him...that makes a terrific difference. Perhaps your autopsy will help others...

Does anyone have any idea what he had?

RIP little one...I know he is flying free and welcomed by those who have gone before...

WITH LOVE and COMFORTING HUGS at this sad time...

Shi


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

mr squeaks said:


> Darn, Naturesgift...even though we had a poor feeling about his recovery, we still hate to see that he didn't make it.
> 
> I am so glad you were holding him...that makes a terrific difference. Perhaps your autopsy will help others...
> 
> ...



Ty for your words of comfort. I hope my pics and discription can save another baby. 

I cried so much last night. And I couldnt set Skyler down to suffer on his own. (I didnt want him with Kiara and Sparkle) I was worried they might puncture his crop or get sick from him. 

i tried to find the meds at my vets and small pet store but I recieved the look. (I get it alot. it always comes with.. and its for what?) 

But a rehabber friend gave me a link to order it. (should I medicate my whole flock) 

(My flock is the birds you guys helped me raise last year + there babies) 


Oh i have no Idea if this may help. But. Kiara and Skylers mom was Frost. The Dad was there Brother (One of Frosts sons from this summer) I didnt notice it untill after they hatched. 

Frost was killed by a Rat. and The "dad" wouldnt feed them/sit on them.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

So sorry this little one did not make it. You put in a lot of effort to help him. I appreciate your dedication to learn what you could from his passing. Sometimes the best we can do is apply what we've learned to future situations.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Naturesgift, 




Oye...


I wish I had some idea of what this was, to be able to learn something for any of us, in case there is a 'next time' with this sort of thing.


Pretty rough deal there...


So sorry


I apprecate very much and admire your efforts all through, and also, your bravery to try investigate what the darned thing was, and to describe and photograph it.

Next time I see my Vet I will pick his brain about this...see what he has to say.



Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Naturesgift said:


> Ty for your words of comfort. I hope my pics and discription can save another baby.
> 
> I cried so much last night. And I couldnt set Skyler down to suffer on his own. (I didnt want him with Kiara and Sparkle) I was worried they might puncture his crop or get sick from him.
> 
> ...


Yes. You should medicate your whole flock.
It's really important to be prepared for emergencies that arise so you are not left helpless and just waiting for the final breath. This would be a good time to make sure you have antibiotics,[you mentioned you have baytril] a wormer, canker medication and one for coccidia. Some vet wrap would be good to have, styptic powder and a heating pad. Over time you can add to your emergency kit. 
I'm so sorry you lost this baby. I know what it feels like to hold them, waiting for the final moment and offering all the warmth and comfort you can.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Canker is a process where the body's immune system fights Trichomonads so violently that it destroys the body's own local tissues as a result. In humans, pus is a liquid comprised of a lot of spent leukocytes (immune cells) and it concentrates in inflamed tissue. That's why we have so many anti-inflammatory drugs. In birds, the inflammatory response is worse because birds lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue, which enhances the potential for the process to run away with itself. Many of nestlings have it worse because they've got an immature and naive immune system--it often just doesn't know when to just let it go, or how to completely separate the good guys from the bad guys. Call it a tendency towards complete overreaction, kinda' like some teens behave.

The offending organism lives in the lining of the esophagus (in this case) and the body doesn't want it there so it starts the inflammatory response trying to kill it. It's a very common organism and there are some strains that consistently cause fatalities and others that don't. It's best to actually have a non-pathogenic strain living in your flock to give them immunity to the more virulent strains. However, most folks treat their lofts or birds in such a way as to try and eradicate all strains on a regular basis.

Pidgey


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

My condolences as well -- loosing a well loved animal is the worst. You gave him much comfort though and I'm sure he loved you for being there for him. {{{hugs}}}


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry you lost the little guy. You were there for him until the end and he appreciated it.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry, Mandie. Bless you for trying so hard to save this little one. 

Terry


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

So Sorry To Hear About Your Loss. I Know That Little One Went In Peace With You Holding Him. He Is Now Flying For In The Sky above Looking Over You. 
Yes I Would Say Treat Your whole Flock For canker Even If They Don't Have It Its Better To Be Safe Then Sorry. When You Order the Canker Med Buy Enuff To Treat Your Bird Plus Get Alittle More So You Have Some On Hand Later. If You Are Short On Money I'd Say Buy The Other Med's Little By Little This Way Its Not Alot of Money At Once. Its Aways Good To Have Med's On Hand When You Need Them. If Your Not Sure What To Buy everyone Here Can Give You Alist of Most Have Med's.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, I, too, am very, very sorry your baby didn't make it. He sure was a cute little guy. I have never encountered what you did and can't offer any advice but I do thank you for sharing the photos with us since everything we read or see can possibly help someone else. I know it took a great deal of courage to do this.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

TY everyone for your words of comfort. 
I am now working to keep everyone else healthy.


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