# Faded mated to Almond ???



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

What will be the outcome of mating a faded brown t-check cock who has a ton of kite in his flights, to an almond hen? Will it be benefitial to almond coloration?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Kite can greatly improve the quality of Almonds, though the best almonds are Kite and split for RR. This helps give a nice dark ground color. The brown might also help the expression a little. I am assuming the cock is het. faded.

You will get 
Cocks (All will be blue split for brown)
50% Het. Almond
50% Almond split for faded (I've never seen such a bird, but I assume they'd probably be white or near-white). The two genes together may also be lethal, I am not sure.

Hens (Hemizygous):
50% Faded Brown
50% Brown


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Kite can greatly improve the quality of Almonds, though the best almonds are Kite and split for RR. This helps give a nice dark ground color. The brown might also help the expression a little. I am assuming the cock is het. faded.
> 
> You will get
> Cocks (All will be blue split for brown)
> ...


Nice work Rudolph - Would you agree the phenotypes on the cockbirds would double themselves depending on which colour the Almond is linked too? 

Then again with the combination of Faded, Almond, Brown and Blue in the cockbirds. 

Could you get taking linkage into account

Almond blue split brown
Blue split Almond brown
Faded blue split almond brown
Blue Almond split faded brown

So four phenotypes in the cockbirds? Or is there more I am forgetting?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

rudolph.est said:


> Kite can greatly improve the quality of Almonds, though the best almonds are Kite and split for RR. This helps give a nice dark ground color. The brown might also help the expression a little. I am assuming the cock is het. faded.
> You will get
> Cocks (All will be blue split for brown)
> 50% Het. Almond
> ...


Thanks Rudolph and Evan. Yes the cock is het. faded and possibly het. rec. red. Hen is also het. rec. red.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Nice work Rudolph - Would you agree the phenotypes on the cockbirds would double themselves depending on which colour the Almond is linked too?
> 
> Then again with the combination of Faded, Almond, Brown and Blue in the cockbirds.
> 
> ...


I try to leave linkage out of it, but since we're there now. If anyone is new to the idea of chromosomal linkage of genes, I recommend you skip this post.

Remember that crossover can only happen when sperm is formed. Once the chromosome reaches the offspring it is set like that for life. Look up mitosis and meiosis in wikipedia for more detail.

Thus the homozygous brown het. faded cock (StFb // St+b)would produce 2 types of sperm StFb or St+b whether crossover happens or not.

Thus the cock birds from this mating could never have almond and brown on the same chromosome. Since the hen is blue almond, the cocks from this pair will always have almond linked to blue. 

Crossover would be possible in the sons, and would produce the linkage of almond to brown. It is very important to remember though that the almond locus is VERY closely linked to the color locus (I think the crossover rate is less than 4 percent).


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Many thanks to both of you. I hadn't even thought of all the possibilities which you mentioned. I was only wondering what the faded and almond genes would do together in a cock bird and it sounds like they will act the same as ****. state of either factor acting alone. I am surprised to hear that there's only a four percent chance of producing a brown almond from the sons. Even if I'd mate the almond sons to brown hens?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I have to check up non the exact numbers, I have an email somewhere, but yes, I think crossover between the almond locus and color locus is rare.

That just means you will not breed many Stb//St+b birds, you can still breed almonds split for brown Stb+//St+b, and because of the way almond works, you'll probably see some brown. 

PS: I found the e-mail Richard Cryberg wrote. 
_"For the linkage between St and B+ the linkage is usually stated as about 1% cross over. The 95% confidence range is something like .1% to 4 or 5%."_


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Slightly off subject but what is the crossover rate for the dilute and reduced locus? Just to put some perspective on things?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I have no idea ... the mail from RC had no details about that.

Imagine trying to create an almond, ash-red, dilute, reduced chromosome ... 

What would a (St B^A r d) // - hen look like?

The crossover rate between the color and dilute locus is about 45% though, if that helps give some perspective. There seems to be two loosely linked allele clusters on the chromosome, B and St locus at one end and R and D locus at the other.

I wonder if anyone has ever bred a dilute reduced? I'd love to see that! Since reduced is rather rare compared to almond - at least where I live - I doubt there will be many such birds around. At least you know once the tow are joined on a chromosome they will rarely split apart again, just like the ash-red linked almonds.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have a reduced (spread I think ) homer, Here she is here. She came from a loft full of pale birds too. Might put her to my ASR cock that carries dilute but first I would like to get a few BC's to racers to get some good homing ability in them.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Rudolph, here is a pic of one of my reduced dilute t-check spread brown rollers. I've also raised some reduced dilute t-check blues (silvers), their wing shield and bib are an orange yellow on a washed out silver.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Wow, Very interesting bird.

Did you attain the crossover yourself?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

rudolph.est said:


> Wow, Very interesting bird.
> 
> Did you attain the crossover yourself?


I'm not sure about the crossover to dilute because I purchased a reduced rec. red at one time who, when mated to a silver hen, produced some dilute sons carrying reduced who produced reduced dilute daughters. The crossover to brown occured three years ago when I introduced some dilute brown barless into the mix. Still haven't attained my goal of reduced spread barless though.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I never knew that the pattern is exposed in reduced spread birds? Do T-pattern spread reduced and bar spread reduced look different?

I've always wanted some reduced homers, but so far haven't been able to find any close-by.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I saw a loft full of spread and plain reduced homers a few weeks back, The spread ones were all identical with the checks showing some variance, the barred ones were also all identical. I did not observe any difference in the spread reduced birds


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

rudolph.est said:


> I never knew that the pattern is exposed in reduced spread birds? Do T-pattern spread reduced and bar spread reduced look different?
> 
> I've always wanted some reduced homers, but so far haven't been able to find any close-by.


Rudolph, 

photos of reduced black masking bar and reduced black masking chequer.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

tmaas said:


> I'm not sure about the crossover to dilute because I purchased a reduced rec. red at one time who, when mated to a silver hen, produced some dilute sons carrying reduced who produced reduced dilute daughters. The crossover to brown occured three years ago when I introduced some dilute brown barless into the mix. Still haven't attained my goal of reduced spread barless though.


This bird is reduced spread brown chequer; I would have expected a dilute of the same genotype to be almost white.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Is this roller, who is out of my reduced family, something other than reduced spread blue bar? Its parents were a blue bar cock carrying reduced from his mother and a dun bar hen (not silver bar).


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

indigobob said:


> This bird is reduced spread brown chequer; I would have expected a dilute of the same genotype to be almost white.


I concluded that it was dilute brown because it had pink eyes as a squeaker. Do reduced browns have pink eyes?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I'm thinking that smokey and dirty genes alter the expressions of reduced quite dramatically. Many of the blues and browns produced from my reduced are very dark (dirty).


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

tmaas said:


> I concluded that it was dilute brown because it had pink eyes as a squeaker. Do reduced browns have pink eyes?


My brown birds have pinkish eyes as young hatchlings, different enough for me to be able to fairly accurately identify browns before they start feathering out. Dilute blues do not have these pink eyes. (There is a gene called pink eyed dilute that causes pink eyes though, but it is rare)


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

tmaas said:


> I'm thinking that smokey and dirty genes alter the expressions of reduced quite dramatically. Many of the blues and browns produced from my reduced are very dark (dirty).


I am sure that dirty would make a difference in the expression of blue and brown reduced birds, though I have no first hand experience to prove it. Maybe indigobob has more insights to share here.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

rudolph.est said:


> My brown birds have pinkish eyes as young hatchlings, different enough for me to be able to fairly accurately identify browns before they start feathering out. Dilute blues do not have these pink eyes. (There is a gene called pink eyed dilute that causes pink eyes though, but it is rare)


My brown birds have pinkish eyes also, but my dilute browns have very pink eyes as did this reduced ?dilute? spread brown. (I don't have extreme dilute in my rollers.)


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I think the reduced brown might cause the same eyes as dilute brown. I cannot be sure, I do not have any first hand experience with reduced. Since you definitely did have dilute reduced in blue, it is quite possible that your dilute reduced is actually just that. Since reduced and dilute are very close together on the chromosome, both gene probably would have been transferred together at the crossover to brown. 

As IndigoBob stated, your 'dilute reduced brown spread' looks a lot like his 'reduced brown spread', and he would expect dilute reduced to be much lighter, but he did not say it could not be reduced diilute brown. Maybe upload a pic of your reduced dilute blues for our experts to comment on.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

My brown Rollers have pink eyes, easily visible as soon as their eyes open; dilute and faded brown have pink eyes too. 

I would expect dirty to have an influence on the reduced expression. I have bred barred non-spread birds with very red/bronze bars, which could be due to dirty. Heterozygous recessive red also influences the phenotype, producing pinkish bars and chequering.

Tmaas, the second bird you posted photo's of looks reduced spread masking bar.

Reduced brown bar.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

ok i need help again this is our turner roller pair reduced blue check hen (left ) and reduced blue bar male. then a picture of their, what looks to me after looking at these pics a reduced brown? may be maybe not


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

rudolph.est said:


> I think the reduced brown might cause the same eyes as dilute brown. I cannot be sure, I do not have any first hand experience with reduced. Since you definitely did have dilute reduced in blue, it is quite possible that your dilute reduced is actually just that. Since reduced and dilute are very close together on the chromosome, both gene probably would have been transferred together at the crossover to brown.
> 
> As IndigoBob stated, your 'dilute reduced brown spread' looks a lot like his 'reduced brown spread', and he would expect dilute reduced to be much lighter, but he did not say it could not be reduced diilute brown. Maybe upload a pic of your reduced dilute blues for our experts to comment on.


Here is a pic of the only bird that I have at this time which I believe to be reduced dilute blue. It's a poor example but the best I can do today.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I took some pics to compare between what I believe to be reduced spread brown and reduced spread dilute brown. Mother (dilute) and son (not dilute).


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

(Quote) ok i need help again this is our turner roller pair reduced blue check hen (left ) and reduced blue bar male. then a picture of their, what looks to me after looking at these pics a reduced brown? may be maybe not

A&D, Your young bird will likely look similar to its mother after it moults. Reduced squeakers are much lighter color than their adult plumage.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Tmaas, I have to agree that your bird looks diluted when compared to the mother...


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

what do think of mine?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

horseart4u said:


> ok i need help again this is our turner roller pair reduced blue check hen (left ) and reduced blue bar male. then a picture of their, what looks to me after looking at these pics a reduced brown? may be maybe not


What sex is the youngster? Do you have a profile photograph of the mother?


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

it's a he, the mother is a reduced blue check, light but not as light as him.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

If its a boy it cannot be brown


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

horseart4u said:


> ok i need help again this is our turner roller pair reduced blue check hen (left ) and reduced blue bar male. then a picture of their, what looks to me after looking at these pics a reduced brown? may be maybe not
> 
> How certain are you that your rollers are both reduced? The youngster looks to be dominant opal and indigo combined rather than reduced because reduced squeakers tend to express a darker colored face in juvenile plumage.


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