# defense agaisnt hawks and falcons



## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

Hello

Ok i just had a question. CAN homers out fly most hawks? I was just wondering if them being such fast flyers does this work to their advantage ?? or are hawks and falcons just tofast for any pigeon and once the pigeon is seen its basically a gonner? i am asking this because im WONDERINg if faster flyers such as homers have a high survival rate then the show birds because they are faster flyers? If this is true then i think homers are a good bird to go with then! ALso ive been told rollars make EASY prey for hawks because they are not fast flyers! is this true? is there any other fast flying breeds out there other then homers that are able to outfly most hawks? please let me know as this is kind of confusing! LOL


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## TaylorGS (Feb 27, 2005)

I belive that falcons are much faster then pigeons. Hawks just catch the pigeons when they are sitting on the loft. I had a bird named Benny who had been caught by one and she didn't make it. She didn't even see it coming!  
Taylor


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Homers fly faster than show breeds or rollers and have a higher survival rate. But if you free-fly, expect to lose some to hawks.


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

can rollars out fly most hawks as well though? or are they just chased down by hawks and killed? instead of being suprised (like with the homers)


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

Racing homers are faster more poweful flyers than Hawks but Hawks can fly up to some 800 feet and dive. Which makes them increbley fast when dive bombing.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Existing thread*

Check out :

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9341

A lot of posts already on the topic of coopers, redtails etc.


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

what about rollars and tipplers? how do they compare with hawks? (speed wise)


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Cateyes,

Which breeds may be faster, is a little irrelevant when you consider some birds of prey can dive at 200+ miles an hour. If you have a YB sitting on your loft, and it's his day to be eaten, he is eaten.

The only sure way to avoid this, is to keep your birds inside a double wire loft, and don't let them out to fly. If you fly pigeons, you will lose some to birds of prey. That is what Mother Nature intended.

The "Fastest" pigeon, is a racing pigeon. If anyone knows a faster pigeon, I will give my racers away, and use that breed for racing.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

A hawk be be above a pigeon and decend to hit it. A pigeon if it sees the hawk can weave dip or dodge the hawk to a certion extent


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Once a Roller survives through thier first hawk season they can be very good at evading the Hawks, they can be very fast agile fliers. Falcons can be down right nasty on any pigeon that they set thier sights on.
Warren I think that there are faster pigeons than homers, but non with the endurance.
You are right,if you fly pigeons losses are inevitable , but nor should we just lay down and allow them to be slaughtered.


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

ive been throwing food on my roof but so far all ive gotten is sea gulls no crows  has anyone else tried the crow method before? i dont know if a crow can chase of a falcon but i know they can take care of most hawks! for a falcon i think we would need RAVENS but sadly there are NONE here  WHen it came to endurance i thought tipplers won that hands down?


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## TaylorGS (Feb 27, 2005)

I know that falcons fly way faster than pigeons because my dad was a falconer. But the cool thing is he never hunted pigeons.


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

Crows can not take out a Falcon but they are very smart. What they can do is call more crows to form a murder and the murder will attack the falcon and drive it away. Crows do not eat, peanuts or seed. The prefer meat and garbage.


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

If you are pious pray to God and the intercession of Saints. You will have so many crows you wont know what to do. I have anywhere from 3 ranging to 74. SOme POwerful saints Saint Benedict and another Irish saint had wild crow friends follwo them around.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Count Your Losses!*

First, look up and then in trees or at high points where hawks might hang out. A call of Teeeaaarrr of the hawk might get a response and sometimes they leave. A teeteeteetee sometimes works for sparrowhawk and coopers. Yes, crow help. But our flock was nearly destoried by Western Nile. Sea gulls are filling in. They dislike hawks too.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Actually, crows do eat peanuts and grain. Our next door neighbors feed them peanuts all the time and we frequently have 30 crows hanging around. Although they do sound the alarm when a hawk comes around and may even "mob" a hawk, they can't safeguard your pigeons for you. All they did when we used to fly was start squawking when the hawk appeared out of nowhere to go after my pigeons.  Although I appreciate all birds I'm not particularly enamored of the crows as they make a ruckus every morning and steal our goose food.


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

Thats interesting. The crows I have here turn there nose up at peanuts and prefer garbage.


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## rosey_love (Mar 21, 2004)

I think that rollers and tumbelers can out fly a hawk but not by who flys faster but who is more energetic. A roller rolls to get away from a preditor and it just became an instinc for them. The will roll and then the preditor will loose track of them in a big flock.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Rosey , Rollers do not roll to evade a preditor, in fact it is more like a wounded minnow effect which helps stimulates an attack. 
Many time's the team will roll when a preditor first comes in the area due to "exciting" the team, then they will go into a defensive fly mode and anything rolling at this point will be honed in on as rolling simulates a bird in trouble , birds that connot resist the impulse to roll during a hawk attack won't make through hawk season.


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*Defense Against Hawk/Falcons*

Here are my two-cents on the subject from experience being a falconer: Falcons (longwing raptors)are better fliers than hawks, where hawks basically feed on ground game, rather that birds like Falcons. Although, there are two hawks that belong to the shortwing family, and that are very maneuverable, called the Cooper's Hawk and Sharpshinned. The Coopers hawk from my experience is a real pigeon killer, and is really the hawk responsible for killing most birds and chickens. Although most people in the country will call most hawks chicken hawks, they're incorrect. The true bird killer is the Cooper hawk which can catch homers by surprise, usually after returning to the loft tired after a long flight back home. The Peregrine Falcon and other falcons that are mature and experienced fliers can catch a homer too, but with some difficulty. The Falcon will attempt to dive on the bird from above with great speed, and subsequently impacting on the bird with its talons. There have been cases of Falcons hitting a pigeon so hard in mid-flight that both were causalities upon impact.

I would say that your biggest worry to attack from a Hawk would be the Coopers Hawk, a small, but very maneuverable hawk. Check the internet for pictures of the bird for identification. As for the Red-Tailed hawk, a broadwing hawk, its a slower bird, but it can still catch a pigeon only by total surprise if the bird is not flying and sitting in the roof of the loft, or tree branch.

My suggestion is if you really have a problems with Coopers Hawks, or other type raptors stalking your loft, I would call your local Fish & Wildlife division and they can put you in contact with a local falconer. The Falconer, if he, or she has the time, will be happy to come to your location and attempt to trap the predator Hawk/Falcon and relocate it. Being a newbee to Pigeons, I too love the pigeon with all my heart, but I too love my Red-Tailed Hawk, and enjoy and respect both animals with great passion!

April- July are going to be bad months, for the raptors are hunting more aggressively to feeding there young. Once the young have flegged and left the nest, I would suspect that things may slow down a bit, although a pigeon fancier I know and falconer has had problems with his cooper hawk through winter. He told me that once the Red-shoulder hawks move into his area, they seem to run off the Coopers. The Red-shoulder is a reptile and small rodent predator.

All the best -

Austringer

http://austringernc.tripod.com


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Thanks for the post, most that I know that have to deal with Falcons will disagree with you on which is worse, hands down I can assure you that the Falcon will be on top of the list.
They are the worst thing imaginable for pigeon fliers, but the money keeps flowing into the release programs, the effect of the preditor population problem is starting to reach much further than the pigeon guys now though as many species are feeling the pressure of this problem


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*It's all relative to Geography*

I'm really not sure why you imply most would disagree with me hands down, for most here are pigeon fanciers like me, but not falconers, and like most people whom do not study falconry, know little about the subject. As for falcons being bigger killers of pigeons you say, well, that is relative to the geography you live in. When I said that the Coopers are mostly responsible for pigeon kills, is because of first hand experience, and if you read the other threads here you will find the same. Yes, Falcons do kill pigeons, but not in my area. I can count over a dozen killed pigeons in my area this year alone to Coopers, and not one to a Falcon. I'm not sure what the argument is......Read a little more, and you shall find that the Coopers Hawks are stronger predators of the pigeons. Do not get me wrong, if there were a pair of Peregrine Falcons in the area of a loft, they too would feed on the pigeon, but ratio to ratio of Coopers in this county to the Peregrines, the Cooper out number the falcon.


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

Hi

I think what motherloft meant was that the falcons are the more efficient and successful predators of pigeons even though they may not be as numerous as coopers hawks. Pigeons seem to be their number one food for some reason EVERY time i watch a nature show with falcons on it they are ALWAYs hunting pigeons. NOt saying that these birds are bad it just seems like their fave prey is pigeon. But they have to eat and live to so its best we keep thinking of ways to live at peace with these beautiful amazing raptors. I beleive that pigeons may be able to outfly coopers hawks if caught up in the air or not caught by suprise or at least given a bit of a head start. But falcons being the fastest birds in the world could probably just catch a pigeon weather by suprise or not doubht the pigeon would stand a good chance on outflying it!


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

I thank my lucky stars that "all" I have to deal with is Coopers , I'm in contact almost daily with pigeon guys across this Country,Canada, The UK and Australia. Falcons are devastating many of these guys, no aurgument just the facts, many of these guys had "no" problems 10 years ago. If you doubt this ask anyone that has to deal with Falcons what would they rather have, a Cooper or a falcon, I can assure you what that answer would be.
Coopers can be a problem no doubt, but Falcons are the absoulute killer of the sky and are responsible for the demise of more pigeon fliers than anything else,at least with my breed, many have just given up due to they raise a 100 and 100 are slaughtered. 
Coopers are easy to deal with and location is the key, If the birds can spot them, Coopers have a hard time taking down a hawk smart bird, I loose very few to Coopers due to where I live and what is around me. With Falcons all is lost once they get your number, think what you like but the pigeon world for me extends far from my own backyard, so yes I know a little about the problems that many are facing and I have seen them working over teams of birds from S. Calif to BC Canada, they actually made me appreciate having Coopers.
The biggest problems are the heavily funded release programs with no sound management plan, These captive birds for release are fed pigeon, wonder what their favorite food is going to be ? 
Like I said, I know many that have to deal with those killers, Falcons will also kill for shear fun of it droppeng several birds out of a team and not take a one. Nothing good about them at all where pigeons are concerned.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Cateyes, What are the chances that some pigeon just happened to be flying by for them to film? just a little something to chew on


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Peregrine Falcon's the worst*



Austringer said:


> I'm really not sure why you imply most would disagree with me hands down, for most here are pigeon fanciers like me, but not falconers, and like most people whom do not study falconry, know little about the subject. As for falcons being bigger killers of pigeons you say, well, that is relative to the geography you live in. When I said that the Coopers are mostly responsible for pigeon kills, is because of first hand experience, and if you read the other threads here you will find the same. Yes, Falcons do kill pigeons, but not in my area. I can count over a dozen killed pigeons in my area this year alone to Coopers, and not one to a Falcon. I'm not sure what the argument is......Read a little more, and you shall find that the Coopers Hawks are stronger predators of the pigeons. Do not get me wrong, if there were a pair of Peregrine Falcons in the area of a loft, they too would feed on the pigeon, but ratio to ratio of Coopers in this county to the Peregrines, the Cooper out number the falcon.


Austringer, Released, Hacked, Peregrine's put into the wild where they never were & part raised by man has turned into a nightmare for any flying breed of Pigeons as Motherlode has said. I understand what your saying in sheer numbers of Coop's, terrain, NC, etc., but the Peregrine's artifically Hacked & "believe me they are numerous now in many areas, has put "Many" a pigeon flyer out of the sport. Roller Flyers are hurt the worst, but all flying breeds are in serious trouble. They even put Peregrine eyass in Prairie Falcons nest inland!!...... You are wrong not thinking there are just Pigeon people on this site. I Hunted with Falconry for 22yrs. & have flown them all.. Peregrine's & Gos Hawks are the Superstars of Raptors & always will be.... I love My Pigeons & Falcon's/Hawks, but this Peregrine Hack program that has turned into a Fed. & Falcon Breeders $$$$$ thing has gone "too far". Coop's are a "Pebble in the Road" compared to these Peregrine's on Pigeons....... Happy


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

oh yeah i totally forgot about goshhawks! they seem to be the king of the hawk world, taking crows like they are "pigeons"


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*The "Adventure" continues!*

I am on my lunch break at work now, so can only visit for a while. This is an interesting thread.

Earlier today, I was taking our trash cans down and my pigeon Tooter was out and about with me.As I was walking up my driveway I saw him peeking at me from the lower roof level in the back of the house and something caught my eyes. It was a very large bird with a long wing span, and it looked black.It was not really flying, but spiralling down slowly in a glide. I saw Tooter and I looked at this giant again  I started to run up the drive way keeping an eye on this big bird that I have never seen in my neighborhood before and we have lived here since 1986. 

Tooter was not on the roof any longer, so I rushed to the back porch and found him standing on top of his traveling cage! I quicky commanded him "ARM
TOOTER ARM!!" Hop he goes and in goes! I then look up and the big bird was no where to be found. 

At first I thought he was an eagle or a hawk, but I suppose it is possible it may have been a falcon? Whatever it was, it sure had me worried.

I thought my kids were going to be the death of me but now I don't know. "Tooter's Adventures" are going to kill me first!


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

big and black sounds like a turkey vulture. A lot of people these very large birds and mistake them for an eagle or large hawk and here they are more common then both. Also they are totally harmless to pigeons as menacing as they look lol


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

From what I know a falcon can outfly a pigeon, a hawk however cannot beat a pigeon in straight flight (although this varies among differing species of both birds).
The way a hawk catches a pigeon is by flying higher and then descending down at a tremendous rate, catching the pigeon by surprise. If not for this dive bombing ability most hawks would not be able to catch a pigeon on straight flight, and therefore would not be a predator.


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

Foundthis article that I thought might be interesting, especially to those who fly homers. 

A peregrine falcon dive-bombing at several hundred miles an hour to knock a pigeon out of the sky would seem to be a study in single-mindedness. . At those speeds, attention must be paid.

But even a falcon in hot pursuit, it seems, can become distracted. And what distracts it, according to a researcher who studies predator-prey communication, is a small patch of white feathers on the rump of an otherwise blue-gray pigeon. 


"The brain can be primed by a conspicuous thing," said the researcher, Dr. Alberto Palleroni, formerly of the University of California, Davis and now at Harvard. The falcon, he said, sees the conspicuous thing - the white patch - and doesn't notice the pigeon starting to turn away and escape. "In effect, it's a kind of a card trick or a ruse" on the part of the pigeon, Dr. Palleroni said.

He and his colleagues observed more than 1,800 falcon attacks on wild pigeons in an open field near Davis over seven years. They recorded the plumage types among the pigeons and noticed an interesting quirk. Although birds with white rump patches made up about 20 percent of the local pigeon population, very few of them were captured by the falcons.

The study was published in Nature.

When a peregrine falcon attacks a pigeon, it plunges from above at speeds over 200 miles an hour, levels off and comes upon the pigeon from behind, punching it with what amounts to a closed fist. At those speeds even a grazing blow kills the pigeon; the falcon then circles back and picks it up.

The only way the much slower-flying pigeon can escape is by dipping a wing, rolling and veering off - "Just like when a jet rolls out of formation," Dr. Palleroni said. If the falcon is distracted by the white patch, it won't notice the dipping of the wing (which, being blue-gray, blends with the landscape) until it's too late.

Plumage color in pigeons is an independently heritable trait, Dr. Palleroni said, meaning it is not tied to selection involving sexual or other traits. So it is highly likely that the white rump feathers are an anti-predator adaptation to such high-speed attacks.

Not bad for a bird that many people disdain. "The feral pigeon is an amazing balance of adaptations and success," Dr. Palleroni said. "I'm always one to defend them."


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I dont know of the effectiveness of buying a crow but you do that ,

Dont listen to me get more info if your really interested.

found a site on an exotic type.

kind of pricy $$$$$

http://www.geocities.com/corvidranch/


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

No if a pigeon rolls at 50 MPH and the Falcon has to roll at 250... The falcon can not sustain enough G, or pulls on gravity for his heart, brain and wings to hold up. His arms would break and his heart would stop and he would black out. I did notice as many here mentioned... When the group of 40 pigeons split off and circle it confuses the hawk.


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*Defense against hawks and falcons*

I will offer this little bit of natural history...mankind has been engaged in the flying of piegons during times when peregrine populations were at their highest. Serious fanciers of racing pigeons "cull" their flocks each year to insure the best lines, the presence and impact of coops and peregrine only serve this end - the fastest and most elusive birds make it back to the roost...it would appear the objectives are compatible!

I want to say that everyone has very good points of view and that I respect them all, and that is why now would be best to end this thread on a good note!

All the best -

Ed


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