# Water in the lungs and other problems



## snyder

I found a baby pigeon about a month ago with a broken leg. He was doing great up until about a week ago, when he started displaying sick bird syndrome. I took him to a vet where they said his crop was all backed up and the vet massaged all the food out of his crop. He put him on Amoxicillin 2x/day for five days. When we got home he was so weak that he inhaled some water into his lungs! I can hear it gurgling when he breathes sometimes. I know this usually means certain death, but its been 3 days and hes actually getting more energy. Do you think there is anything I can do for the water in his lungs? I am keeping him on heat for now. Yesterday however, I was feeling his keel and noticed a big cut or bump on his breastbone too! This poor guy! I dont know where this might have come from but its not an open wound. I have been putting iodine and neosporin on it. This guy has so many problems but he is a fighter! I tried feeding him this morning but he just threw it up ( Im tube feeding him Abba Green) Do you think I should keep trying or put him down? Any suggestions or advice? Please help..I really love this bird and dont want him to die! Thanks


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder,


You could refer to the images of this link -

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

... to see roughly how old the little one is...

Put some images of him somewhere if you can also?



Try one and a half tablespoon of raw Apple Cider Vinegar (get at any Health Food Store) to a Gallon of Water, for his drinking Water.

How are you giving him food and Water?



Depending on his age, various people here ( me for example,) can give some advise on feeding methods, and what-to-feed.

These powdered formulas often seem to glob up and sour their little Crops, and or their Crops can have been bruised and slowed from a fall when we find them.

Quite small meals, might be the way to go for a while...


Thanks for sticking with him! He might just fight his way along and do just great...!

They are great little Troopers!  


Till next, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## snyder

I think he was about 10 days old when I found him, so he is a little over a month old now. I only have pictures of him about 2 weeks after I found him. I will try and take pictures of his wound tonight. His life history is pretty complicated as short as its been. When I first found him I took him to this wild bird rehab haven and they looked him over. He was put on baytril for about 15 days for his broken leg (his elbow joint was severly swollen and now that its healed, he still cant use his toes in that leg). 
After that I dropped him off at the rehab center for a week ( I had to go on a research cruise for work for 5 days). When I got him back he was fine the first night, but the next morning he was sick. Im not sure if he got that cut while he was at the haven or not, but Im pretty sure that is where his crop started getting backed up. I will try that apple cider vinegar in his water.Up until now he drinks water on his own...and might have been eating seeds (but i have never seen him do it, although "the haven" claims thats what he ate while i was gone) I was still tube feeding him about 20cc 3x/day of the Abba Green (its not powdered, its granulated and has seeds in it). I checked his poop this morning and there are whole seeds in his poop that arent being digested. The vet suggested to give him some peptol bismal to help coat his stomach. Before he got sick he was picking at seeds but never eating them. There was one time I saw him try to swallow something and it got stuck in his throat and he threw up all of his food! Come to think of it, he has had a history of throwing up his food since the 3rd week ( I thought he was just being overfed, but maybe he has some gastrointestinal problems). I have no idea, but know that I could use help. I feel like he is hungry but cant keep food down, or pass it through!

Im not sure how to attach pictures so you can email me at [email protected] and I can send you a picture of him.


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## Skyeking

Hello and Welcome to Pigeons.com

Thank you for taking in this needy youngster. 

We can better advise you if we know the age of this youngster, as Phil has said, and then you can also determine what to feed it. What were you feeding him before the crop problem?

There are different feeding methods and formulas on the DAILY forum under RESOURCES.

The youngster could use some probiotics in the formula or seed, whatever is best for his age group. The need is greater for youngsters, especially when they are under stress and on medication. You can buy the human kind, Multidopholis from any health food store, it comes in a powder form. It will help him to digest his food better and keep him from throwing up.

I don't have any idea about the water in the lungs, but someone else will be along who may have more knowledge with this issue.

Treesa


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## Pidgey

As far as the water in the lungs, I don't think that would just stay in there for that long--it should either absorb or evaporate as they get a lot of airflow through their lungs. Theirs aren't like ours--it's a circle drive and the air only goes one way.

However, they can get pneumonia and then you'll hear rattling. I hate that this little fellow was on Baytril at that age because it causes odd bone growth. I have a blind pigeon, Unie, who was on Baytril at about that time for quite awhile and she's really tiny compared to her family.

You need to look close at that wound on the breast. If they heal/scab over before the necrotic tissue is expelled, then a septicemia can develop which will become pansystemic disease--he'll just be sick, sick, sick and nothing will stop it. So, you need to look at that bump real well because you're probably going to need to lance it or split it or whatever to get the poison draining to the outside of the bird. You may have to dig it off in pieces. That will hurt the bird a lot less than the alternative--if the tissue is necrotic, he won't even feel it.

And I hate to say it, but that's best done by a vet if you're not up to it.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder,


Okay...so far so good...!

Pidgey's post slipped in just as I went to another 'edit' for my typos!

So yes, find a good Avian Vet for that injury to be evaluated, as well even as for the possible Candida or other to be looked into.


The "raw" Apple cider Vinegar has proved useful for those Birds I have had, who suffered from throwing up and or slow Crops.

If your Bird is in fact a Month old or so, it really should have been eating on it's own for a week or so anyway, or, should be encouraged to do so. whether or not it gets fed by other means additionally.

These tube feedings are possibly some of what is making matters worse or making them compromised.

Do you steralize your 'tube' before use?

Is it a quite 'soft' tube or a hard one?



Anyway...might be some Candida or other which once it gets going into their Crop, messes up how it and other organs of digestion will work. 

The Vinegar, over the course of a week, or less, should ease this.

I do not know what that product is you mention, the 'Abba Green' but I will try and look into it. ( Okay, in edit-mode now, I googled it and the site tells nothing about what it is aside form it being a 'hand Feeding formula' but they do not bother saying for what Species...)


For now, likely nothing is going to sit right or digest right with him untill his system clears itself of whatever it is that is messing him up, possibly Candida or something else maybe.

I would also consider to put him on some 'Berimax' or 'Citromed' soon which you can google and get on-line and have in a few days or so in the mails. These appearently are concentrated citrus peel extracts which are natural antibiotics.

But anyway...for now, you could do frequent, gentle Crop massages, have the raw Vinegar in his Water, and small meals if any...maybe, unless hs is straving, let his Crop empty all the way before any more feedings...just let them have their Vinegar Water...and then when you do feed him, make them small meals, 5 cc or something. Then repeat a while later and see how things go. Maybe aadd some pro-biotics as Tressa mentioned, and some good Vitamines such as 'Nekton-T' or something...but I am not l ikeing the 'tube' feedings for this Bird and I think it is not helping matters somehow.

So..maybe get some small whle Seeds and see about pecking with them...get some good Grit also, like crushed Oyster Shell.

If the Bird will feed from a Nipple, and they may, you can get Grit and Seeds in a nutritive slurry, into them easily.

My method, if you may wish to review it, is outlined in a couple posts under this thread -

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11244

If the Bird will 'nuzzle' to be fed, it may also nuzzle and 'gobble' if it's Beak is gently led into a small bowl of Seeds, while you keep your finger tips gently ON their Beak, so it 'feels' like they are being fed in their natural way.

For now, I will guess you need to get their possible Candida or whatever it is cleared up so it can hold and digest food normally.

This Bird 'should' be self feeding by now and will benifit from you setting some Seeds on a folded light colored Towell and pecking with him with your crook'd index finger for some light social learning times.

Likely this Bird will be a little subdued for the time being, untill this clears up.

No harm if they like to cuddle...

Good luck!

Till next...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## snyder

*How much multidophilus?*

Thank you for all your wonderful suggestions! It took me awhile but I found a place that sells the multidolphilus so Im off to go buy that now along with the apple cider vinegar and pepto bismal. I will go and take pictures of his wound as well, but I think I'm going to take him back to the vet and have him look at that. I have a question about how much of the multidophilus I should give him and how to give it to him?


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## Pidgey

It occurred to me that depending on where that lump is, it can also be canker in the crop which can be fairly low but just try to describe EXACTLY where the lump is, please?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder,

Unless others here can recommend the Pepto-Bismal to be used in conjunction with the raw Apple cider Vinegar for a slow-Crop and possibly a Candida infection of the Crop and so on, I at least do not think they should both be used, and I am doubtful that the Pepto-Bismal will do any thing benificial at this time, or it may make matters worse by coating a crop whose lineing is already compromised with possible Candida or other bacteria or organisms, which the Vinegar needs to contact firectly as well as systemically altering the birds background ph.

Please someone elaborate or correct me if I err in this?


Have you checked the Bird's throat for any signs of anything 'yellow', like small little yelloy bits of (small curd) 'cottage cheese'?

These may or may not accompany an infection of Trichomoniasis or 'Canker' occuring elsewhere.


Is there any 'yellow' paint-like liquid with the poops?

Abcesses may occur also of course which are not Canker but are sometimed dense, almost 'dry' even, repositories of leucocytes or them and their preyed upon germs of some kind or other.


Yours,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Snyder sent me the pictures to process, so here they are. She wrote:

The first one is a about a week after I found him, and the other one is from last week before he got sick. Thanks again! I will go home and take picts of his wound soon and email them to you in a few hours!





Pidgey


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## snyder

Yes there is yellow paint like threads in his poop..what does that mean? I am emailing the picts of his wound now to Pidgey. I wont give him the pepto bismal at the same time as the vinegar treatment. I do have a question about the multidophilus still...since that is beneficial bacteria, wont they be killed anyways since he is on antibiotics?


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## Pigeonpal2002

snyder said:


> I do have a question about the multidophilus still...since that is beneficial bacteria, wont they be killed anyways since he is on antibiotics?



Hi Snyder, 

Yes, this is correct, hold off on giving probiotics until after the antibiotics are finished.


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## snyder

One more thing... there isnt anything yellow or caked up in or around his mouth so I guess that is a good thing. He is trying to start preening again, but it looks like he cant move his head that well (probably because of the wound) but I think its a good sign. Its the first time he has tried since he's gotten sick. 

I am going home from work now ( I dont have internet access at home) but I am planning on taking him to the vet first thing in the morning to have his wound looked at. Thanks


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## Pidgey

Okay, here's one of the pictures of the wound (there were four but I think it only takes the one). Snyder wrote:

"These are pictures of his wound, sorry if they are a little out of focus, but I did the best I could...I wonder if this will clear anything up for anyone! The coloring around the wound is betadine and is not blood. When I found the wound there wasnt any blood surrounding it. I also never noticed any loss of feathers but obviously there are feathers missing."



Well, this wound/growth/necrotic tissue look to be of the crop. It could be from canker or a puncture of the crop that allowed crop contents to leak into the space around the crop. It definitely needs veterinary intervention, I just hope there's no need to euthanize the bird!

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

snyder said:


> Thank you for all your wonderful suggestions! It took me awhile but I found a place that sells the multidolphilus so Im off to go buy that now along with the apple cider vinegar and pepto bismal. I will go and take pictures of his wound as well, but I think I'm going to take him back to the vet and have him look at that. I have a question about how much of the multidophilus I should give him and how to give it to him?


You can add about a 1/8 of a teaspoon of the Multidopholis to the formula once he is off any antibiotics. 
You can a put a few drops of Sovereign Silver colloidal silver in the formula to take care of any candida/and or infection. I do not recommend the ACV or the pepto at the same time.


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## snyder

I hope that euthanizing him isnt an option either. This morning he is doing much better- a lot more energy, but still puffing up. He woke me up early..he even flew a little bit and actually ate some fruit and corn on his own! I guess I wont be tube feeding him after all anymore. He is also trying to preen but still cant move his head/neck to reach his feathers so he is ghost preening. I am taking him to the vet still to have his wound looked at. Im not sure what to tell the doc, but hopefully he will do something beneficial!


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## Skyeking

Hello and thank you for taking such good care of this youngster.

I'm glad you will be taking him to the vet to have the wound checked, should be no reason for euthanazia. 

Since the bird is old enough to eat seed and starting to pick it up, here is a good web site that shows the proper grains and seeds for pigeons. He will do well on this type of diet. You can purchase pigeon seed at some pet stores, and seed supply stores. 

http://purgrain.com/ingredients.htm

Treesa


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## snyder

Trees Gray said:


> You can add about a 1/8 of a teaspoon of the Multidopholis to the formula once he is off any antibiotics.
> You can a put a few drops of Sovereign Silver colloidal silver in the formula to take care of any candida/and or infection. I do not recommend the ACV or the pepto at the same time.



I took him to the vet who pretty much said to leave the wound alone but to keep putting neosporin on it, and continue his Amoxicillin for 5 more days. I am not sure if he has a candida infection, but where can I get the "Sovereign Silver colloidal silver"? Will it hurt him if he doesnt have an infection? Also since I prefer not to feed him formula anymore, how would you suggest I give this to him? Also thank you for the website link for seeds, those are pretty much the same mix that I am offering him now. Hopefully he will start to eat them soon along with the fruit and corn.


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder,


Wow...glad to hear the wound is expected to heal with simple care.

The Solloidal Silver - Soverign Sliver will not hurt anything, and may help against any kind of ills or infections...get it at any Health Food Store.

"Fruit"? What kind of Fruit are you feeding them?

I am curious, did you have any thoughts about the information form the link I posted for you, about feeding them and so on? the 'Moralle Booster' thread the link led to?

You mention tube feeding now...so..I am curious...

Best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Snyder,

I will explain my thinking process throughout this thread. One of the tough things for us is that we can't see the pigeon except by a picture and that usually doesn't tell as much as we would like.

This pigeon has experienced several traumatic events--separation from its parents, a broken leg, separation from you to the rehab center and then back to you. These kinds of things stress a young bird pretty bad. One of the things that they (birds) can get is a disease called trichomoniasis. It is a flagellating protozoa-a one-celled organism that has little whips that wiggle around to make it move. This is extremely common in pigeons and doves.

Usually, the main symptom that we see is cheesy looking growths in the mouth and throat. They look extremely peculiar--you'll know them if you see them. However, they don't necessarily occur there--sometimes they occur in the region that the "wound" is on your pigeon. These growths are an accumulation of leukocytes (spent white blood cells) that have essentially been produced to fight the trichomonads. 

It's difficult for the leukocytes BECAUSE the trichomonads live in the mucosa--they don't typically burrow into the actual body where the leukocytes can physically get to them. So, the worst of the disease is like an autoimmune disorder where the body begins to attack itself, kinda' like the reverse of AIDS. Many allergic reactions are a similar process.

Anyhow, when a growth of this stuff forms in the area that is shown on your pictures, it can constrict the passage of food through the crop. Constriction is a variable--you can't say how much can pass or how large of a particle can pass (like a large corn kernel). But vomiting can occur if something clogs it or too much food is taken in at one time.

These growths may cause an abcess to the outside. You originally indicated that the wound was a "closed wound" and that could mean that it was skinned over or that it was scabbed over--we can't tell which. I would hope that it was originally a true wound from the outside but that's still a dangerous place. It would be very informative to know just exactly how big the lump is (like a marble, a golf ball).

If there's even a possibility that it's trichomoniasis, then it might be real important to get the bird on a short course of medicine especially for that. We can't tell whether your vet knows avian medicine well or not--most vets really don't know birds that well--and trichomoniasis is definitely a "bird thing" especially for pigeons and doves.

One medicine that works against trichomonads is metronidazole. It comes under many trade names and there are several other medications as well (you can easily search the web about it). You might just ask (no appointment necessary) your vet if he/she is acquainted with this disease and medications and if he/she checked your bird for it.

Several of us have had young birds whose crops were literally destroyed by this bug and died because the piping from the back of their mouths down to their stomachs eventually just dissolved. It can be bad. Usually, the birds gain an immunity to it and live with it in their systems the rest of their lives with no ill effects. However, extreme stress can cause enough of a lapse for the disease to take hold and kill the bird.

The symptoms as you have described them are almost classic but this entire explanation is not the only possibility. However, it's very easy to take care of it, if this is what it is. Just something to think about.

Pidgey


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## snyder

Wow..what you said really scares me and it sounds pretty similar to what is going on with Snyder. This medicine, amprolium hydrochloride, can you buy that from a store or is it prescribed? Is using The Solloidal Silver - Soverign Sliver going to do the job just as well?I dont think my vet is that well versed on pigeon/dove ailments, and I think you are right that its more than just a cut. 
As for the fruits I gave him, well I offered him small pieces of strawberries, cantelope, honeydew and grapes(the inside only). He really preferred eating the honeydew and didnt really like the cantelope and only ate a little strawberry. Is it ok for him to be eating this? 

I will get back to you more about his tube feeding methods later. I have to get back to work now!


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## Pidgey

No, the silver won't address that. Metronidazole is an anti-protozoal medication. It's actually a poison that hits that specific bug and giardia and isn't the same as an antibiotic. I would think that some vet down there would have something like it--there are other animals that it (trichomonads, giardias and hexamita) will bother.

And you're in Hawaii, right? Crap, you guys oughta' have a bunch of those bugs in the water because you're in a tropical climate. These darn things like warm water to survive in, I think.

Exactly where in Hawaii are you? Oh, duh! You're in Honolulu!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Sorry, Snyder,

I screwed up on that medication name--I went back and corrected the posts and I private messaged you to warn you, hope you got it. Anyhow, I'm looking for a retailer in your area via the internet, but you should still try your vet first.

Another medication that can be used is dimetridazole. The one I use has the trade name of Emtryl and Flagyl, but I understand that it's pulled from the markets in the US. I think it can still be gotten from Mexico.

Here's a webpage for a similar drug from a dedicated pigeon supply company:

http://jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=77&SubCategoryID=745

Other companies that sell such products are Foy's, Global Pigeon Supplies, and Siegel? Other people on here know these other companies way better than I do. I was thinking though that you might need it somewhat faster as you're in Hawaii, though, so that's why I suggest calling the vets (for a bird dose). Some of the stuff goes in the drinking water and some comes in pills and some comes in multi-medication pills that hit a bunch of different diseases all at once.

By the way, the most common name for trichomoniasis is "canker."

Pidgey


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## snyder

Well I called the vet this afternoon, and he doesnt have that medication (Metronidazole or Dimetidazole) so now Im not sure what to do. I went to that website (Jedds) and I can buy the Rohnfried GAMBAMIX TRIO TABLETS. Is that sufficient? Also Im not sure how long it will take to ship out here (things generally take forever!) Were you able to find anywhere local that I might be able to pick up something for him? 

As for the tube feeding, well I basically have a 35cc syringe that has a small plastic/flexible tube attached to it about 2-3 inches long. I fill the syringe with his food, and put the tube down his crop and slowly depress the syringe. This equipment was given to me by the Wild Bird Rehab Haven along with 10cc syringes for his medication. Before/after every use the syringe and tube are disinfected (dipped in a beach soln). 

I have used this tube feeding method previously as well. I used to work for Sea Life Park here in Hawaii, which has an excellent SeaBird Rehab/Release Program that I looooved working at. ( I was also a dolphin trainer) There we would take in injured/sick/weak birds and either rehab/release them, or if they had permanent injuries they would go to live in our sanctuary (where they are well cared for and have a great view). Sea birds are so different from terrestrial birds, which is why I am at a loss for helping this guy. Thank you so much for all that you have done to help me and Snyder!


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## TAWhatley

Perhaps the vet got caught up in the generic name .. surely s/he has Flagyl (Metronidazole) most vets here have Flagyl readily available .. another drug in this family is carnidazole which isn't readily available in the US (brand name Spartrix). Bascially what you're after is an anti-protozoal in the "zole" family of drugs (Metronidazole, Carnidazole, Ronidazole) for treatment of trichomoniasis.

Terry


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## pdpbison

Hi Snyder,


As far as some sort of anti-protozoal medicines, maybe there are some sort of Pigeon Clubs in Hawaii?

Their members would have Ronidazole, maybe some Packets of Emtryl, Metronidazole, etc. or also they might know where in Hawaii to get them.

The 'Berimax' (not-a-drug) I recently tried took care of the Canker problem of Baby Daisy just fine...


Any Farm or Poultry supply places? They might have these drugs for their customers. These drugs are also used for Horses, Swine, Poultry, and so on...


Of course too, the 'Canker' is not definite here as for sure...it is one possibility.


Is there any 'yellow' or yellow paint-like liquid in the poops?

...does the Bird have any odor? If you bury your nose in it's back feathers?


Is there any poop soiling it's feathers on it's butt? around it's vent?

What do the poops look like? Are they about the size of 'Raisens'?

Does it make 15 or so over night say?





Now, on the wound - 


Is this a 'hole' in it's front Crop area? A hole in it's body there?

Or is it an abrasion looking red or fleshy?

Is it a 'lump'? a protuberance? Under the skin and the skin has lost it's feathers?

Or...?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Try these folks:

Aloha Animal Hospital Associates
Douglas Chang
4224 Waialae Avenue
Honolulu, HI 96816
Phone: 808-734-2242 
Fax: 808-732-0682 

Bird & Exotic Animal Practice of Orange County
Bruce Levine
151 Kapahulu Ave
Honolulu, HI 96815
Phone: 808-971-7180 

These are members of the American Racing Pigeon Union in your area:

237. Club Name: OAHU INV RPC 
Club Code: ORP 
Club Secretary: DARRYL HO 
City: HONOLULU 
State: HI 
Phone No.: 808-395-4975 
Email Address : [email protected] 

238. Club Name : NUUANU INV CLUB 
Club Code : NIC 
Club Secretary : BRUCE FIGUEIRA 
City : HONOLULU 
State : HAWAII 
Phone No. : 808-734-4719 

586. Club Name : ALOHA RPC 
Club Code : ALOHA 
Club Secretary : ANDY YOUNG 
City : HONOLULU 
State : HI 
Phone No. : 808-734-1606 

860. Club Name : 
Club Code : AKY 
Club Secretary : ALVIN YOSHIKAWA 
City : HONOLULU 
State : HI 
Phone No. : 808-595-4128 

Out of all these folks--one of them is surely going to have some of one anti-canker medicine to sell you. You might best consider taking the bird to one of the avian vets but fairly often a pigeon racer knows a lot about their diseases as well.

Now, other possibilities include an internal wound from the tube feeding process that caused a small puncture in the crop that has leaked some foodstuffs out into the space between the crop and the skin.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Pidgey,

As usual, good work!

fp


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder, all...


Unless the catheter or 'tube' or whatever one is trying to use, is VERY soft, and, one is VERY careful not to let it bottom out in the Crop ( or if a rigid one, to press against the sides anywhere)...the whole scenario allways scares me to hear casual mentions about.

Too, unless there is really some real, good, 'serious' reason TO feed them this way, I feel frustrated to hear of it.

Out of hundreds of injured or ill or famished youngsters or adults I have had, I have only had to tube-feed three.

For me then, it is about one percent maybe.

It is very rare that a young Pigeon will not eat if it is simply treated gently, and in terms it understands as for the invitations TO be fed, in the ways that are familiar to them.

If they are very close to the grave, some will just withdraw and close their eyes and so on and of course, they will not eat readily. Others, depressed or forlorn or exhausted..similarly. Most of these will come around if one do the 'Moralle Booster' I had described in my link that no one ever reads when I post it.

This makes me sad...

The use of force and indifference frustrates me when a little understanding and friendlyness to them will almost allways bring them around for them wishing TO be fed, in what for them, are safe, easy and familiar ways that also put them at ease as far as them feeling accepted and understood.

Anyway...


Snyder, do please get your Bird to an Avian Vet for a thorough exam and diagnosis of it's several appearent problems?

Regimen thereafter, is something many here can guide you in or offer the benifit from our experience.

If we can not tell or obtain clear information from you for the questions we ask, it makes it very hard for us to help.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## snyder

*3 Big Questtions!!*

*****I called around this morning and found a feed supply that sells metronidazole!!!  He sells them singly for $0.50/ea and said they are the size for a chicken and should only give half to a pigeon. Now my question is how much should I give him, how often, in what form, and for how many days? I will go pick it up this afternoon. Is it ok to start him on this med while he is still taking amoxicillin?******

*****I also came across another question/problem last nite. He was eating great on his own, in fact he seemed very hungry. Well I offered him the equivalent of a 1/2" cube of fruit cut up in small pieces of course and he gobbled them all up. Trouble is that it stuffed his throat to the max! He looked like a chipmunk, the food was packed tightly all the way up to his throat and BARELY went down into his crop! The food made it down his throat about to where the wound is and bulged up a little to the right. 

 My question is if after emaciation will his crop collapse and almost get sewn shut? It seems like his crop isnt able to expand or hold any volume like it used to be able to! Is this what happens when they're digestive tracts start to break down? He hardly even digested any of the food last night either! This morning the food was still there so I gave him some water to help move things along. All in all last night there were 3 poops! Most of it was green (thick and paste like) and watery around the edge (vet said that it would be watery from the fruit), and a little bit of yellowy paint like stuff. His body smells ok, and his poop smells like his antibiotic so I dont think that tells much. I tried to make him throw the food up by massaging it out, but it was pretty hard to get anything moving. This morning I only gave him is antibiotics and some ACV water. I think from now on I will just try to give him really really small feeds throughout the day, but for now what should I do?*****

****His wound is right below his breastbone (were you able to see the picture?) It is not fleshy, its like elastic smooth skin that is over the wound. When I touch it, it seems semi-solild and maybe around the size of a blueberry but I cant be sure. It might be some food that is back there too, plus he is so bony right now its hard to tell what is bone and what is abnormal. Do you still think I should try cutting into it? Or just wait for the meds to try and work first? ******

As a side note, I know that he needs to see an avian vet, but I am a very poor graduate student who can not afford the $50 for an office visit and examination. That price doesnt include any tests or medication which can run for an additional $20-40 each. The first vet I went to only charged me $5 for the visit and $5 for the antibiotics. I have called almost all the local vets and the cheapest one I found (that isnt even a bird specialist costs $35 for the exam) I am worried that if I spend that much money on a visit the vet wont really care to look into whats wrong with him. He might just spot diagnose the bird and send me on my way $50 poorer.  Hope to hear from you all soon. I have to get back to work now, and will go for the meds in about 4 hours.


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## Pidgey

When you've gotten the metronidazole, please provide the info off the box--trade name, quantity of actual medicine per pill--that kind of stuff. You might not get that if you buy them literally 'by the pill' so you might have to get that info when you buy them from the feed store.

It's not going to hurt monetarily to get 10 of the pills, so do that because it should be enough to get started at least. Ask what their protocol for chickens is while you're at it--that'll tell us something about that drug if you can't find out anything else.

Personally, I've never fed a pigeon fruit of any kind and I would think that since there's obviously a constriction, a large piece of anything would be tough to swallow. If I were stuck in this situation, I'd probably resort to feeding KayTee Exact Hand Feeding Formula using the tube feeding procedure because it's got everything the bird needs and it can be given kinda' thin to get past all blockages. You'd usually give about 10 to 15% of the bird's body weight per feeding, three times a day or more feedings of less amount if it won't fit in to the space allowed due to this problem. In no case do you want to pack more in if the stuff that's in there hasn't gone through yet. KayTee, by the way, can be bought at a pet supplies store with a bird section.


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## Pidgey

You may be able to see this "wound" better if you wet the feathers in that area with water mixed with a little dishwashing soap--just a capful in a cup or so. If you work that into the feathers, it will stick them together and you can part them to get a better idea what it looks like and a better picture.

To answer one of your earlier questions, yes we can see the picture. It's a bit fuzzy but it looks like a shiny, black spot. I know that you said that it's covered with Betadine (think I remember that) but we can't tell whether it's a big scab or just wet-painted skin.


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## Maggie-NC

This is a formula for metronidazole:

250 mg. tablet + 10 ml (cc) water (or, syrpalta, grape flavored)

This will be at 25 mg/ml concentration

Example: 250 gram bird - Dose 20 mg/kg (the 20 mg/kg is a set standard for this medicine): Weight is converted to kilograms .25 kg x 20 mg/kg divided by 25 mg/ml equals a dose of 0.2 ml (cc).

I use bottled water, room temp, and refrigerate.. It is extremely important that the pill be pounded into a powder and then put in the water. ALWAYS shake the bottle strongly to get it mixed well, and draw the medicine immediately after shaking.

This is from my vet. Some weights/dosage: 175 grams - .14 cc; 275 grams - .22 cc; 400 grams - .32 cc.

Hope this helps.


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## feralpigeon

Not to confuse, but for present and future reference, here is a link to the Modena Club's "Doctor's Corner":

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/formulary.htm

It also has a good section on diagnosis.

Best,

fp


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## snyder

Well I got the metronidazole, a 250mg tablet, and I'll follow the 0.2cc dosage, and I'll give it to him 2X/day. 

I am also going to start feeding him some baby formula again to get some food in him tonight so he doesnt starve to death.

I havent taken any xrays, but Im not sure what it would show..its also something a little out of my budget.


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## feralpigeon

Hi Snyder,

While x-rays might show bones or "foreign bodies", I don't think it would help w/soft tissue damage. An MRI might be a bit pricey.

Keep an eye on the bird/poop/behavior/odors while dosing and notice what if any changes occur. Keep us posted and best of luck w/your patient!

fp


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## Pidgey

Folks, I spent awhile online with Snyder in an AOL Instant Message session while, quite by coincidence, I was on an online chat with Dr. Welch (current pres. of the Assoc. of Avian Veterinarians). Multitasking. I specifically asked about taking Amoxicillin and Metronidazole together and he confirmed that there was no drug interaction--they're fine taken together (I had no idea).

Anhow, she provided a picture of a typical poop sample and it's almost all fluid and possibly a little bile or solids, hard to say. Very little is going through the crop at this time and the "prognosis is poor" to quote the doc. Here's a picture of a typical poop for this bird throughout a day with a full crop:



Whenever a mass (this one seems to have generated from the inside of the bird) is in the area of the base of the crop, it's very easy to plug it off and then nothing much gets through. The bird begins to consume its internal resources until they are gone or septicemia induces coma. Here's another picture (it's a link):

[

That doesn't mean this case is already lost and it ain't over til' it's over. Snyder got some KayTee and will make a thinned slurry to try and get something through to help support the bird while the meds try to work (if the diagnosis is right, but they sure won't hurt). None of us wants to give up and we're not. 

I really would have wished for an avian vet but even that sometimes ends up with the vet saying "it would really be best if we just... " so it's a coin toss any way you look at it. Nothing whatsoever will thrill me more if this bird pulls through and I don't give a darn whether it does it of its own resilience or because of a medication. The next few days will tell.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

The metronidazole is given every 12 hours for the 250 mg tablet. I have gotten it from the vet with a dosage of every 24 hours but that is for a higher concentration tablet. Give for 5 - 7 days. Can even go to 10 days if the canker is really bad.


It is important that the bird be weighed every day. Any weight gain/loss will affect the dosage and it will have to be adjusted upwards/downwards. We sometimes weigh ours 2xday just to be sure. You need to do this with any medication, not just Metronidazole. An otherwise healthy pigeon that has a mild case of canker can continue to eat and weight can increase from morning until night.

You can usually see improvement by about the third day. 

The Metronidazole tablets should be available at most of the pigeon supply stores. Also, while you don't really want to give a bird a tablet that has passed its expiration date, it is my feeling that if it is within one year after the written expiration date, the medicine will still be effective. The pharmacists are required by law to put these dates on but one told me the medicine is usually effective to at least one year after the expiration date.

I'm really pulling for this little guy. God bless.


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## Pidgey

Lady Tarheel,

You know--all that's kinda' confusing when it comes to this drug. The instructions that you gave essentially show to make a suspension and then give what would be the equivalent of ~1/50th of the pill per dose (last weigh-in was 224 grams). That is in agreement with the formulary that I have for this drug: 

10 to 30 mg/kg, BID for 10 days, psittaciformes, oral

So, to someone who has a difficult time with the complexity of that (hell, I work through it six times to assure myself that I've finally got it right), it's a bit confusing even referring to the 250 mg pill. That pill has just GOT to be for a dog or a hog or something much bigger.

The feed store guy had advocated ONE PILL PER CHICKEN and told her that for a pigeon she would probably need to cut the 250 mg pill in half. Now, if we go back and read this whole thread, it's got to be bewildering to anybody who's brand new to it all.

By the way, I did all this research last night and this morning and so I'm NOT speaking from the air of OMNISCIENCE--more from harried panic. Anyhow, it's becoming increasingly obvious why most of us would far rather keep a stock of the "pigeon specific" pills from the supply houses, they're just a poop-load easier to deal with.

NumberNine,

I think your methodology and dosing is based on the correct information as well but minus the correction for the weight of the bird. That might not actually be a problem here because some drugs only need a threshold serum level and when toxicity isn't an issue (haven't read about this one yet) then overdosing isn't much of a problem. Baytril, for example, is well tolerated in an overdose; Panacur is NOT (we had a recent problem with that one that the vet apparently induced).

But, for this bird, it is also possible that the obstruction has nothing whatsoever to do with trich, but is rather from pressure on the esophagus due to the proximity of the mass to the base of the neck. A lot of piping has to go through there and Snyder indicates that the mass is fairly well anchored at the top of the keel. Treesa was right to point out that this case hasn't been considered by an avian vet and so we're shooting if not quite in the dark then certainly in some very dim light.

That mass really needs to be removed but it really needs a vet to do it.

Pidgey

As an aside, I had thought that metronidazole was specifically an anti-protozoal, but apparently it has other uses. According to the book, it's often prescribed for infections of the liver in mammals although it hasn't been studied for that in avian cases specifically--that's from 1994 so it's a bit dated, though, but it's the best I've got at the moment.


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## Pidgey

NumberNine, 

I think Snyder said that the feed store guy told her that the pill that he was selling her was for a chicken. Now, he didn't orginally tell her that it was a 250 mg. pill, she was just supposed to find out what it was while she was there because he sold them "by the pill" so I didn't figure that she'd know what she had unless she got it from the box that it came from.

I'll go back and read through ALL of that to see if I got it right...

OOOOOkkkaaaayyyy, it looks like we don't have solid documentation because I DIDN'T SAVE the second Instant Message transcript where (I think) she read off to me that it was a 250 mg. pill.

Dang! And the one thing I love above all else (except Lin and Unie) is SOLID documentation. Oh, well, I guess we'll wait to resolve this when Snyder re-appears online. However, I have my own personal box of Flagyl 250 mg that I got from a feed store/animal supply (don't remember which one) and I checked that one out myself last night. 

Pretty confusing world, isn't it? There's room for all kinds of assumptions and errors! There was another thread on here somewhere that somebody was thinking that maybe we humans were the least evolved and IF WE'RE LUCKY, we might get to come back as pigeons. I'm starting to think that one over!

NumberNine,

Did you ever stop to consider that the chickens in Hawaii might be a lot bigger than here? (I know, that's plum silly but we need a little humor once in awhile!)

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Pidgey 

Just trying to be helpful. I can only go by what my vet has told me for years. I know the 250 mg. tablet is what I have always used and preparation has been the same without any problems.

It does get confusing when there are so many different ways to medicate birds. I've said it before, we're all sorta winging it but maybe through discussions like these we can come up with some standards that everyone can use.


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## snyder

wow! You guys have been busy while I was gone! Well, I got him started on the Metro last night (crushed up a 250mg pill with 10ml H20 and gave him about 0.2cc) I also tried to give him the Kaytee Exact formula but he only took in about 1ml and shook the rest out. Before all that however, I did manage to get one pea sized seed from out of his throat but the rest is pretty tightly packed in there. I thought about giving him some drops of oil to lubricate this throat but I wasnt sure if that would only clog any absorption going on for his liquids/meds. His poop looks about the same-mostly paste-like green poop that has the consistency of mucus and some white paint liquid as well. I gave him the amoxi and metro again this morning, and tried again to give him some formula, but again he only took in about 1ml. He has been drinking water with liquid vitamin supplement so hopefully he is getting some nutrition. 

I weighed him this morning and he is now 215g, so he lost about 10 grams overnight (which I realize is a lot). He looks pretty awful and I know he is really hungry. Also last night I noticed that his wound is getting bigger, so Im fairly convinced that its something internal, perhaps food/leison that is bulging out! I am worried that it is definitely blocking his digestive tract, and that it might break the skin soon.  

Because of that, I decided that for the next month I will eat just cereal and made an appointment with an avian vet who has pigeon experience. His appointment is at 2:30pm my time, about 4 hours from now. I prepared myself all nite that the doc might recommend putting him down, but I am praying that he can do a simple surgury and cut the wound and drain it. Any suggestions or things I might say to the doc to help him help Sndyer?


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## Pidgey

Darn, but I'm glad to here that.

Incidentally, I was just in an Instant Message conversation with Snyder and lo and behold, this is the stuff that she got:

http://www.bullwrinkle.com/index.html?ShoppingPages/fish-zole-metronidazole.htm~indexmain

Who would ever have thought that you'd use it for a fishtank? I haven't been out comparing prices but that seems a lot cheaper than what I've paid for the stuff before. Who knows, it might even be easier to find but we all need to remember that here's another emergency source of the stuff to recommend when people come up needing it!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder,


If you make it clear to the secretary/receptionist when making the appointment, that this is a wild Bird which you are intending to care for and nurse back to health...

It is possible, if tacitly left up to the Vet, that they will reduce the charges or charge nothing.

The odd bump or wound or whatever it is, may be an abcess surrounding an old Pellet from a pellet gun, which did not necessarily even enter there, but ended up there.

Check the Bird carefully all over for any signs of othe small scabs of Feathers laying out of harmony.

Slow Crops are dangerous for them of course, since not only may they not be getting much of anything going through, but because what is in there can begin to moulder or ferment or spoil.

My Birds of your's age, more or less, seem to make about 14 to 16 poops apiece overnight, when in their sleeping cage. Overnight usually is about 6 hours.

Sorry I was m.i.a. there for awhile, I had some computer problems...!


Anyway, sorry this one is so challenging...

I hope the Vet is a good one and finds an understanding of the situation for more specific remedial actions to proceed and address specifically what issues are involved here.

Abcesses appearently can also invlove surrounding tissues in ways that compromise their function from their sharing the infection somewhat, as well as by physical pressure or displacement.

The use of drugs right now will probably be more for their benifit than that they will per-se do much for the abcess as such, if in fact it is an abcess...

Consider to have an electric heating pad for the Bird, you can fold it into a corner even if you want, as well as having their cage covered for the night, so they may be on it or off of it as they like, or cuddle into it as they like. 'Thin' Birds such as this may not make adequate heat for themselves. But as well, keeping them warm helps them save energy.


Wishing you both all my best...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## snyder

*The Vet Visit*

Well I just came back from the vet and the prognosis isnt good at all. He said that most likely its a sour crop/crop infection possibly worsened by a crop laceration (that I suspect came from his stay at the Bird Haven. They have lots of young kid volunteers that are inexperienced and may have punctured his crop while tube feeding). He thinks the wound and hardness in his throat are inflammation from the infection and that the walls of his esophagus and crop have become impacted and essentially glued together from the infection/inflammation. Its awful. We even tried to hold him upside down and flush the crop with saline and all that came out was saliva, no food. 

I was given three options. One was to try the surgury, which he told me would cost several hundred dollars! Obviously, I can not afford that. Reguardless of the cost, the chances of him surviving the surgury would be slim or not entirely effective. The surgury would entail cutting him open and cutting out any necrotic/infected tissue. The tricky part would be sewing his crop back together. He said the surgury might reveal that the infection is so bad that he would have to cut out a whole section and try to stretch the remaining tissue to re-attach the two ends to reform the crop. If the infection is large the two ends might not be long enough to reach each other, or the tissue is also really thin and delicate and is hard to suture back together. This makes the surgury seem like a long shot considering all the other things he has been through and his currently weakend state. 

Another option is to euthanize him, which the doctor thought was a humane option indeed. I agree with him, because in the past day or two Snyder is looking physically diminished. His eyes look sunken, and he is so bony. He still flys around a little, and is starting to preen again, but he just looks sick. Ah..the poor baby! I spent a majority of my time with the vet crying and trying to talk through my tears. 

The third option is to try and let the medications do thier best and see if he somehow pulls through. There is a chance that the metronadizole will help lessen the inflammation in his crop and start letting food pass through. This afternoon for the first time in days I saw small seeds that had passed through in his poop (undigested) but still! something came through! I took that as a small victory that things might still be moving. The doc said to give him a week or so more and if things still feel/look the same, then euthanizing him would be the nicest thing I could do for Snyder. It breaks my heart thinking about that.

I am going to go with the third option and give him a chance to let the medications work. I will just pray that the inflammation does go down and that he starts to get food through. If it does start to work..I am not sure what will happen next, but I'll wait till I get to that bridge. 

This afternoon I gave him about 1ml of kaytee so hopefully he is still getting something. All we can do really is pray for the guy to beat the infection. Thanks everyone for all your help thus far...I really cant express how grateful I am to have other people helping me through this. I am also amazed at how much I have grown to really love Snyder so, really thank you all!


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## feralpigeon

*Metronidazole*

Hi Snyder, 

I'm so sorry to hear the prognosis for your bird, very sad indeed. However, it 
is hopeful that he appears to be passing food at least and is preening. I'm hoping that your TLC and some time with the medication will be successful.

Also, I'm sure that the vet gave you instructions on the metronidazole, but for other's reference in the future....

Here's a link from Jedd's:

http://www.jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=64&SubCategoryID=539

Put out by Medpet, it is 100 Mg's and coated. There is apparently a range of medicating w/this drug. From the Doctor's Corner link posted below:

–Flagyl, Thone Tronid, Fishzole (metronidazole)
25-50 mg per bird per day for 3 days. May not mix well.
1250-2500 mg per gallon for 3-5 days.

Although Medpet's Medtrich recommends dosing one 100mg tab for one day once a month.

When prescribed by my vet (avian), I was given in 250mg form, instructed to cut into quarters. Take one quarter and crush, then mix w/1cc of water, and crop administer one quarter of that thru syringe, throwing the excess away. If I remember correctly, I was to treat for 10 days.
I have read that it can be given up to 14 days.


Best wishes for a good result again, and bless you for caring for this pigeon.

fp


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder,


...keep him warm...

Have a heating pad they can be on or off of as they like...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## snyder

It was a rough night/morning. I have been giving him a heating pad since the first day he started showing puffiness about 1 1/2 weeks ago now. I try to keep him resting most of the day, but he gets bouts of energy when I cant stop him from flying to my head or shoulder. 

Yesterday after the vet I went to the library and got some books on avian medicine. I couldnt believe it when I found a picture that is exactly like Snyders wound! It turns out what happened is a "Crop Burn" that occured while he was at the Bird Haven while I was gone. I know this for two reasons: one is that it shows up only 3-5 days after the burn occurs, which is exactly when I noticed it, 5 days after I picked him up from the Haven.Second, is that I know they make thier formula in large batches as they have many babies to feed. This means they reuse unused formula by warming it up in the microwave. The vet told me this causes certain 'hot spots' in the formula and when given to a bird with a slow crop will just sit there and literally burn through the crop. So at least now I know what it is for sure.

He is having trouble keeping any of his medication down right now because what space is open in his esophagus is full of this mucus. As soon as I gave him the meds this morning he shook them out. He is also having trouble breathing, he seems to be gasping for air and has a little cough. Maybe the inflammation is putting pressure on his airhole now. 

I guess I will just keep on trying, but Im starting to feel like Im tourturing the little guy more that helping him at times.


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## pdpbison

Hi Snyder,


Was Candida considered or discussed when you visited your Vet?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## snyder

No not really.


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## Skyeking

Snyder,

This bird has been thru so much, and you have done your best every step of the way. I bet you have learned alot about pigeons since this one came along. You really have been a trooper and given this bird every consideration and every chance for life. All he needs is your tender love and supportive care, that is what is most important to the bird, no matter what. 

I'm cheering you on and sending good thoughts your way. God bless you for all you're doing for this youngster.

Treesa


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## feralpigeon

Hi Snyder,

You've done an excellent research job,imo, and "Crop Burn" does seem to ring true. I know you've got you're hands full right now between giving the needed care and loving attention to this bird along with the added burden of having to research much of your own medical answers to think of anything else, but when things do settle down, it would probably be a good idea to tactfully let "Bird Haven" know how much pain and suffering Crop Burn has caused this bird.
Hopefully you can help them to live up to their name in the future.

You have truly been an inexhaustable trooper and advocate for this bird.

fp


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## Pidgey

A small report--I have been in extensive outside communication with Snyder over this bird and it was obvious that he was starting the slow final slide downward. In the research in several avian vet books, this was either a perforated crop or a burned crop. 

Essentially, there was rotting food in the space between the actual crop and the outer skin. It was unknown where the crop was damaged. According to all the books, there's one and only one path through. The outer skin must be incised and the debris and necrotic tissue must be removed with copious irrigation.

Generally, there must be some form of a proventricular feeding tube applied while the affected tissues of the crop spend DAYS healing. In most cases it will take from three to five days before the delineation between viable and devitalized tissue becomes apparent and maybe as much as 7 to 14 days. This is true for crop burns.

It is possible to install a proventricular feeding tube through the mouth if the path is open. In this case, it wasn't. Even the avian vet couldn't get the tube more than a half-inch past the pharynx. The bird was managing 1 cc of food, water and meds at a whack (to last for several hours). We all know that they can't last long that way.

So, I convinced Snyder that if there was no other help to be found, she was going to have to perform the surgical emplacement of a feeding tube below the blockage. Since there was already that black lump that was almost rotting through, it was the obvious point of entry. If it was a real burn, it's surgically quite easy to remove the necrotic plug and snake a tube down the thoracic section of the esophagus to the proventriculus.

We discussed (we're talking a LOT of typing) the procedures as well as the equipment necessary. I also suggested that she try to solicit the help of the only other avian vet found so far in the area (he works for the zoo). This bird was very quickly running out of time. There wasn't any significant food or water getting through and septicemia, toxemia and Heaven knows how many other *-emias were setting in.

Well, last night, she, with the help of a couple of lads, performed surgery to remove the bulk of the mass and other rotten food debris. The crop seemed unaffected so it probably wasn't, in fact, a burn. An incision was made and the tube inserted and snaked down to the proventriculus. Initially, she gave the bird 15 cc's of straight water and then followed with Pedialyte and available medications every couple of hours through the night. She was on the phone with me all through the surgery.

We were thrown a curve when we discovered that the crop didn’t have the damage in the lower section that we were expecting. There was a very intense moment when the incision had to be made (complete with bleeding), the tube inserted and water pumped in. Probably, the water was too cool and the bird began shaking as soon as it went in and closed his eyes. I didn’t sleep all night for nerves. I can only imagine how Snyder’s held up. Oh, well, at least she’s young. My heart can't take much more of this. All we've done to this point is to buy some more time for the bird. She is trying today to acquire the necessary heavy-duty antimicrobials that have historically been required for these cases.

Well, at her last report in (a cell phone text message), she was on her way to visit with the zoo vet. It was the zoo’s policy that they couldn’t work on a wild animal for fear of bringing some disease into the zoo. I had advised her that maybe, just maybe, if she could meet with him somewhere else he could give some advice, provide some necessary meds or, hopefully, perform a little community service. No decent human being could possibly witness the effort that Snyder has gone to in order to save this lowly little pigeon’s life and not help. Surely not.

Anyhow, the bird’s alive and okay so far but there’s still a long way to go because of what the real problem is now proving to be. The most likely probability is that when the bird was at ?Bird Haven?, he was tube-fed by a real novice and must have gotten perforated very high in the esophagus not far under the jaw. The food was deposited in the subcutaneous space forward of the crop at the base of the neck. There’s good and bad here because the crop isn’t badly damaged but it’s up high in a tough place to work in. It’s possible that it can be bored and dilated but we still don’t know the extent of that damage.

Tube feeding should really be avoided if at all possible. Sure, it’s easy and quick if you’ve got the right equipment and if you know what you’re doing, but there’s a very real risk if that’s not the case. It certainly shouldn’t be advocated to someone who’s never done it before. I remember a long time ago I had used the search words “emergency” “feeding” and “pigeon” in a search engine and found a page that had these syringes with stainless steel tubes on them. Very dangerous to the uninitiated.

Well, Snyder has certainly been initiated. I think we should all learn from this and I hope by some hard work and a miracle that this bird makes it but it’ll be a very close call.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Hi Pidgey,

Was the avian vet from the zoo able to help Snyder at all?? 
Whether Crop Burn or Crop Perforation, both issues should be directed towards the management at Bird Haven and skill level of staff using these procedures addressed. 

Snyder is a hero as far as I'm concerned, and you as well Pidgey. Not being a cheerleader, just the facts, folks.


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## Reti

Snyder has done an amazing job. This little bird couldn't be in better hands.
Hoping for the best

Reti


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## pigeonmama

Pidgey and Snyder,
Thank you for not giving up on this little bird. My feeling on animals is that they die when they are ready, or tell you that they need your assist to die peacefully, unless they die from accident, predation, etc. Needless to say, this tough little bird isn't ready to die. You two are wonderful!!!  
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC

My prayers are with both Snyder and her little pij. I can't imagine the courage it took for her to do this but there is a reward somewhere for people like her. And Pidgey, I don't imagine you did get much sleep but you know what, it is people like you that make this world a better place. I am so glad you also had the courage and knowledge to help see her through this. God bless both of you.


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## TAWhatley

Many thanks to both Snyder and Pidgey for their heroic efforts to help this poor bird. Let us all hope that the pigeon has the will to stay the course and recover from this horrible situation.

Terry


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## snyder

*Post Op Report*

Well I am happy to say that the surgery was a success-meaning Im just happy I didnt kill him and we finally found the hole to the stomach !!! It was pretty scary cutting into his crop but then it was like a miracle to feel the tube go down a hole. I wasnt able to sleep at all last night, and I made sure that he got fluids very four hours or so through the night along with some meds. I also gave him about 5cc of formula starting last nite at 4am and he seems to be doing good.

It is amazing how little he seemed affected by the surgery. Only a few hours later he seemed like his normal self, walking around, wanting to nuzzle, and taking small flights. I tried to minimize his movements, but he was doing great. He hates the tube however and despite my best efforts to bandage the tube to his body he worked even harder to get it out. He was trying to preen the band-aids off too!

This morning I went to the zoo vet and had a long talk with him. In the end he gave me a steel feeding tube to see if I could put it down his throat all the way to the crop. This would determine if there was any blockage in his esophagus. If it was blocked then that was bad news, because most likely it would never reopen. The blockage could be formed from the scar tissue from the wound, or nerve damage to a spincter that is not working properly anymore, or the necrotic tissue has impacted the passage. Well, I mananged to get the tube down, much to my relief. However when I tried to feed him only 1cc pedialyte it didnt stay down in his crop. After I removed the tube it flowed back up to puff up his throat area. I dont know what is going on or what that means, but luckily it went down after a few mins. The bad news is that 1cc is hardly enough for him to get by. 

But it will have to be for the time being. I will call the doc tonight and see if its ok for me to try and feed him directly through the stomach tube (if it hasnt closed up yet). The vet did make it clear to me that keeping that tube in there is a bad idea. The bottom of the tube will cause that area of his stomach to become very irritated, inflammed, and possibly infected. It is also hard to maintain sterility with the tube and surrounding area. Leakage could also become a factor to the open wound. Also the tube will accumulate debris on the end which will cause problems as well. He was pretty much against the entire idea of leaving that tube in there, so it was just as well that Snyder had pulled it out while I was gone. I practically begged the vet to give me some more antibiotics, but he wanted to wait and see if he could even take the tube down to his crop. Since he is having trouble with that still, Im not sure if he will give me any drugs. 

The bottom line is that his life is still up in the air, but I think by the end of the weekend I should be able to make a decision. If he is unable to eat on his own then the best solution is to have him euthanized because it is not a good idea to keep a feeding tube in him. It would not be practical because I wouldnt be able to meet his nutritional needs unless I feed him around the clock. Also, that is not the life he was meant to have. The vet graciously offered to help me out if it comes to euthanizing him. Id like to be there holding him when he goes, whereas the Humane Society wont let me stay with him for his last moments. If he can start taking food down on his own then I will be so happy and we will take it from there to try and get him on meds or something. I will let you know how things go on Monday if not sooner. Thank you all for your support and kind words. They really mean a lot to me.


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## pdpbison

Hi Snyder,


Whew....

What a heavy ordeal for you both...

Good going there Snyder...!


I am so glad that it goes well enough for our hopes to remain bright...


...all my best wishes...!

Thanks Pidgey for all your help on this one...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley

Thank you for the update Snyder .. I'm so relieved that both you and the bird are still with us .. what a horrible time you have been through.

Personally, I think that expecting this bird to eat on its own at this point is a bit unrealistic, but pigeons never cease to amaze me. Tell the bird s/he has to do it!

I am also a great fan of the stainless steel gavage/crop needles .. I know others here are not. You can actually "feel" what's going on when inserting a steel crop needle when you really can't with a flimsy rubber tube. You can start the steel tube down the throat and actually feel where the bulb is with your fingers as well as "see" it if you move it gently to the side. 

Unless there is a large, and I mean large, obstruction of some type in the throat and/or crop, you should be able to easily get about 15 cc into an adult bird and 30+ cc into a youngster. I think you may have been a bit unsure and hesitant about getting the crop needle far enough down .. if you don't get it to at least 1 inch past the back of the mouth then the fluids will come back up or you will feel resistance in trying to press the plunger on the syringe. Take it back out and try again. Once you have it in correctly, you can again see and feel the crop filling and also hear the sound of the fluid leaving the syringe. You have been such a trooper so far, please do try to get the hang of this stainless crop needle. Play with it over the sink just using plain water to really get the feel of the device. Then try again with the bird .. run the crop needle down the mouth and throat and gently push it to the side .. you should be able to feel and possibly see where you are with the bulb of the needle .. if you are well down into the neck, then you should be good to go. I know this is all easier said than done, but now that you have done surgery, the crop needle should be easy.

Bless you for all you have done .. your courage, your caring, your time, your effort .. 

Terry


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## Pidgey

One of these days you're gonna' be wheeled into the emergency room with a badly broken knee and you're going to overhear the doctors advising your family, "the knee is shattered. We could fix it, but he'll suffer horribly through the process--I think it might be best if we put him to sleep."

I'd wheel my a** out of there and go set the knee myself and live in agony the rest of my life if necessary but I'D LIVE!

As far as the crop goes, it sounds like a classic case of candidiasis out of the book. There's even a picture of a piece of the crop mucosa that's call "turkish towel." It's especially thick and looks like a... well... a towel complete with all the little pendulous bumps. And the mucous. Classic. And damage to the crop can cause this. Even the regurgitation is classic, everything. In the big wide world, it would really aggravate me if all this bird needed now was one of the simplest drugs (nystatin) to get back on its feet.

Well, anyhow, I think what ought to be tried for now is a longer tube in order to get past the crop and past that hole that Snyder made to insert the other tube. I'm going to take a couple of pictures and post them of both the method and type of tube that I'm talking about. If it's actually true that at this point we can easily keep the bird alive with (dang it!) simply tube feeding with just two lousy extra inches, then let's get with it!

This shows a surgically implanted feeding tube illustration. I'm only proposing using a normal feeding tube method augmented with a longer tube to get past the trouble spot (the crop):



This shows a suitable tube for the job but one can even be made out of the heat-shrink tubing that she's already got:



This shows the tube above out of the package:


This shows the pliability:



At this point, it's a matter of length. The other day, they couldn't get a feeding tube even down an inch but now they can and we've already proven that you can get to the proventriculus and turn the bird around.

I really think that the vets should review all of the procedures that I forwarded to Snyder. They describe and illustrate all phases of the diagnosis, treatment, procedures and complications of this kind of thing. I can't help but wonder if those folks are just relying on basic memory of these matters and haven't ever had to perform this particular procedure.

And I'd like to add that sometimes it's so important to keep focused on one path and not to quit. Unie is a perfect example of not knowing how to quit. If you haven't read her story, Snyder, maybe you should give it a quick read:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10825

And I want to say that you, Snyder, have worked harder and better than anyone else I've ever seen on here given similar severity. It's the vets that will sometimes either talk you into quitting or letting things go until it's the only thing left to do. You can tell by a few of the comments made on here (PigeonTalk) that finding a really good vet is like finding a buried treasure on your own property and almost as rare. When we do, we don't ever want to let them go or retire. We get their home addresses.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey, 



Oye...I was hoping that the probable Candida was something the Vet would have considered to investigate as an attendant complication.

As far as I know, the use of the Raw Rpple Cider Vinegar to the tune of one to two Tablespoons to the Gallon of Water for Drinking Water, seems to have worked for my young Bird's probable occasions of it.

Otherwise, what is the drill, 'Nystatin'?

The Vinegar at least, (by immediately changing the ph of the Crop and of their system in general to some extent, ) if one does favor it's use, seems like it would be kinder to their system than the systemic Nystatin would be...to my mind.

What regimines have we to review for the Candida?

Besides those two?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Actually, Phil, Nystatin is NOT systemic. It is not absorbed by the intestines at all. It works completely as a topical anti-fungal and should not be tube-applied. It should be used by swab in the mouth and throat, and a long swab down the esophagus. There is also special food that is permeated with it.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Hi Pidgey & Phil,

Jedd's has a product called Medstatin which is a dry powdered form of Nystatin.
It can be given orally in drinking water, although in this birds case, I think Pidgey is correct in that it needs "contact".

According to Fred128:The recommended dose for Nystatin is .5 ml per 100 grams of weight. Mix it in water and syringe it down twice a day.

According to Modena's Club; Doctor's Corner--
Nystatin
½ to 1ml orally.

Accidified Copper Sulphate (may be taken internally & externally), Citromed, Golden Seal all lay claims to getting thrush/yeast infection, but all of this is a mute issue if Snyder can't get her
hands on any of it.

fp


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## snyder

I have some good news and some not so good news. Last night when I returned home, I gave Snyder about 4cc of formula with his meds using the steel tube. Everything went great! He had no problems and there was no leakage from his crop. However, when I fed him about 4 hours later with just formula he did start leaking the formula from his crop. I freaked out and flushed the area with diluted betadine. I didnt know why he started leaking that time, perhaps I pushed down on the bottom of his crop and re-opened his stomach feeding tube hole. 

Because of that I decided to just try and stick to fluids more to allow the hole to heal better, so I went to Longs to buy some pedialyte and other medical supplies. You wont believe my bad luck with this stuff! I didnt notice it when I bought it but one of the bottles I got had a small leak. Only after I offered Snyder and he drank quite a bit, did I look up and notice my counter filling up with liquid. I picked up the bottle to see where the leak was and the entire bottom of this bottle had some sort of mold growing on the inside of it. Apparently its had this opening in the bottom for quite some time and had a sizable colony of mold or algae growing on the bottom and sides of this bottle. I couldnt believe that I didnt notice it, but then again I shouldnt have needed to. It is just my luck to pick up the one bad bottle at Longs! It really scared me that I had just given my sick bird even more microbes to deal with. I kept the bottle because earlier I had spoken to the zoo vet and he was coming to check Snyder out in the morning.

When the vet came in the morning, he told me that Snyders wound looks REALLY bad. There is still a lot of necrotic tissue and the crop just doesnt look good (because of the outside burn). He also felt the hard/thick part of his neck and told me that it was really badly infected, and that even with a lot of antibiotics the blood stream cant reach the center of this necrotic tissue that is infected. He suggested giving the meds directly into that hardened tissue. When I told him about the leakage going on he asked me if Snyder would eat on his own..well Hell Yeah. He had been trying to eat on his own since about an hour after the surgery. So I made him a liquidy formula that he could drink. We figured this way we would know if the hole was leaking from pressure of the feeding tube or if it was just open. He drank it up, but soon after doc left (of course) it started leaking! It was really frusterating. After he left, I tried calling the avian vet I went to, to see if he could give me the Nystatin and another antibiotic. Of course he is off until Tuesday, but they told me if another vet called in the prescription they could fill it for me. So I had the zoo vet call it in for me (yay!) and I was able to get him Nystatin and Cipro!

When I got home I decided to try giving him drier food so maybe it wouldnt leak out. I put the meds into the Kaytee but made it semi thick so it was like paste. He gobbled it up and begged for more, but sure enough it started leaking through. Exaperated, I started feeling pretty hopeless. The doc had told me that if he cant eat on his own, without contaminating the wound with a leak, that it is really bad. He offered to do the euthanizing if I needed on Tues when he is back at the zoo. A few hours later, after another intense cleaning session ( doc told me that as the necrotic tissue starts to shrink I should try to clear it out) I tried one more thing. I have this spray on bandaid called "new skin" that works great on me. It forms a pretty solid seal, so I asked doc if I could try to put some on his hole and see if it closes it up. Well I put the stuff on, let it dry, then gave him some pedialyte and watched the wound. It leaked, but not from the hole that I made. It was coming from above the entire opening, probably near the top of the crop. This could be the site of puncture. So now I have this new leak that is covered by the hard/thick part of his lower throat and I cant get to it. I think I might have seen it ( I had to sit under him and flash the light up there so it was not a good view), but I dont know how I can fix that hole if it is from the crop burn or puncture. Only time will tell I suppose. 

So, this is just a new challenge. I tried once more to feed him less mushy food. This time I pretty much made the Kaytee into a ball that only had meds in it. Hungry little guy that he is, he gobbled them up and begged for more. I gave him only one little ball, and a sip of pedialyte to help it get down there... and watched. No leakage so far! I dont know how long it will take for it to pass through since there isnt any liquid to help slide it through, but I am going to give him about 1-2 balls every few hours. The size Im talking about is almost the same as an pencil eraser. I know it isnt much but I dont think that is crop is flexible right now. When I cut into it for the feeding tube it was thick, and cartilagenous. Doc said that wasnt good and it should be a thin, smooth, and elastic tissue. The crop might have become calloused from the burn and isnt able to expand right now. Also it seemed the more food I put in that was over 4cc is what started the leak up. I want to stick to small and frequent feeds for at least a week to 10 days depending on how things go. This should give him adequate time to heal those openings.

I also figured out a way to bandage him up so that he cant preen it off. It is wrapped around his body in a figure 8 fashion, and it is so funny to see him try to walk right after I put it on. He walks like he is drunk because the bandages are a little heavy and changes his balance. He got used to it after about half an hour the first time, and now it only takes him a few mins to get his balance. This is the first thing that has made me laugh at him in a few weeks. But his spirits are up, as is his appetite and activity level. I am really hoping that if I can keep him on this semi solid kaytee(with no leaks), he might have a chance with the new meds. I should really get back home and feed him now. I think things are looking up for the time being!


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## Reti

Oh dear, you have one of the toughest cases I ever heard of. Your devotion to this little guy is admirable. I am sure he loves you very much.
My best wishes to both of you.

Reti


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## Pidgey

Well, it sounds like a vet is finally in the fight! And finally we've got some meds that will help. This is about exactly what that book had talked about and after our surgery, about exactly what I've been expecting--a hole above somewhere in the upper neck. 

As long as we can keep the bird stabilized for a week and the meds can get a handle on the infection and the affected tissues can heal, it should be possible for one of the avian vets to perform a surgery, if necessary to close that upper hole. They will have to literally cut the skin of the neck open from just under the jaw down but it can be done. And, maybe it will heal by itself but I think that you usually have to remove the scar ring around the hole first. 

Wounds like that can sometimes form a "fistula" around the hole and leak to the outside of the bird. It just becomes a little tube in the side of the neck that goes to the outside of the bird. I suppose that you could even use such a hole for a proventricular feeding tube.

You know, Reti--this is one of the toughest cases because the fight is ON for life! There have been several cases on here that have probably been just as bad but Snyder has fought harder for the bird than anyone has been willing to do before. And the toughest part has been getting adequate support from the folks that should have been the most helpful but it finally sounds as if they're coming to the party.

Snyder, however this plays out, you have certainly hung in there and you should really be proud about that.

Pidgey


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## snyder

Last night was interesting. The hole from in his throat (the swollen hardened area) leaks sort of randomly. Even when I gave him solid food every other time it would leak. Sometimes when I use the steel tube it doesnt leak, and other times it does. I am keeping to such a small amount as well so I am not sure what triggers the leak. This morning for his meds, I gave him only 1cc and it still leaked! I am not sure how to try and fix that... and I am not sure how to really flush the area. Since I cant see the hole I dont want to try and stick a tube through it. I also tried to administer his metro directly into the hard/thick part of his neck but when I put the needle in, I couldnt push any of the meds out. It was like the tissue was so compact that there wasnt any room for liquids! Do you think I should try subqutaneously instead of direcly into the mass? 

I do agree that he might need to have a surgery, but I know for sure that the zoo vet will not be able to do it. Its because of the zoo/city policy and I dont want him to jeopardize his job for this. He did say that if he had surgery again that it would be to cut open along his throat and remove all that necrotic tissue and sew up the other hole. It will have to be done by the expensive vet and that is going to be more than I can afford. Truthfully, I have spent way more than I can afford this month already. I know Pidgey has offered to help pay(and thank you so much, that is very generous of you), but its a few hundred dollars! So Im not sure how much he would be able to help out. I guess the least I can do now is to find out how much we are actually talking about and then take it from there. That will be tomorrow since that vet is off until then. How soon do you think this surgery would need to take place? 

As for his meds, I dont know about the Cirpo/calcium interaction but I have been giving his Nystatin separately and maybe I can just mix those two together and give it to him straight like that? Would that be ok? The amounts they told me to give him are 0.3ml of Cipro 1x/day ( but Im giving him about 0.15ml 2x/day because I dont know how much gets leaked out), and then the Nystatin is 0.6ml 2x/day. Like I said, I am not mixing that in with his food and letting it coat his throat. 

I weighed him this morning and he was a measly 173g, but he is still active and looking good. He was 215g last Friday before the surgery, and Im not sure how many grams of food stuff and necrotic tissue were removed. If I had to guess, I would say the most would be 10g. I am trying hard to give him as much food as I can but I hate that he leaks with such small amounts of food! Although I know he is getting such a small amount of actual food right now, his poop looks pretty good. He is making solid poops. Sometimes however, there is only the white stuff that comes out and no green. Maybe that just means that the solids I gave him already passed through. I will be able to monitor his weight steadily all week and hopefully he can start gaining some. Do you think I should give him more food per feed and let some of it leak? Its really bad to continually contaiminate that wound tho. Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## Reti

Thank you for the update.
I guess the sooner the birdie goes into surgery the better. The hole needs to be closed.
Let us know what the vet thinks.

Reti


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## pdpbison

Hi Snyder, all...


Opinions all, please, on the utility of Raw Apple cider Vinegar for the address of thrush or Candida?

Granted these are seperate if conspireing issues for this Bird's survival.

The abcess my baby Dove had, while not complicated by the presence of Candida, began to 'leak' around the area where it was initially seperating from the skin covering it. since food intended for her Crop was in fact leaking from her esophagus into the space under her skin. I had never seen anything like this before...and I did not recognise it's implications in a timely manner.

In her case, when the abcess was removed ( it came off with a gentle tug, along with the skin covering it) her Crop was no longer to be found, and her esophagus was perforated, and below that, constricted with scarring so that almost nothing would pass through. Food and Liquids which I had previously thought were going into her crop, was merely leaking into the space under the skin of her front area there.

I would think, on principle, that the surgery should be as soon as possible.

I want the opinions of other experienced folk here, on the use of the Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, since it would be easy to use, costs nothing, and would not tax the resources of either you or the Bird.

I used it for what I took to be a Candida situation, and the results were good. I did not have a definitive diagnosis however, but, there was throwing up and a static Crop and minimal pale green ropes in clear liquid as for poos...


Phil
Las Vegas


.


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## feralpigeon

snyder said:


> As for his meds, I dont know about the Cirpo/calcium interaction but I have been giving his Nystatin separately and maybe I can just mix those two together and give it to him straight like that? Would that be ok? The amounts they told me to give him are 0.3ml of Cipro 1x/day ( but Im giving him about 0.15ml 2x/day because I dont know how much gets leaked out), and then the Nystatin is 0.6ml 2x/day. Like I said, I am not mixing that in with his food and letting it coat his throat.


Hi Snyder,

I think you want the Nystatin to be given after the Cipro so that it is the last thing going down. You could mix one tablespoon of ACV to a Gallon, which I think to be the "standard" mix-- especially Bragg's if you have it ( w/the "mother" in it ) and give that to the bird between meds or mixed w/formula.

It's OK to give Nystatin concurrently w/antibiotic, you just want it to go down after the anti-biotic. That's my understanding on that. See what others have to say on that....

Seems like the best bet is to try and get this surgery lined up...I could help a bit as well, but I don't know that this would put you where you need to offset the cost.

Please let us know about this other vet.

fp


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## feralpigeon

pdpbison said:


> Hi Snyder, all...
> 
> 
> Opinions all, please, on the utility of Raw Apple cider Vinegar for the address of thrush or Candida?
> 
> 
> I want the opinions of other experienced folk here, on the use of the Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, since it would be easy to use, costs nothing, and would not tax the resources of either you or the Bird.
> 
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas
> 
> 
> .


Hi Phil, 

Since she has Nystatin, I would think it best to continue w/that. However, the two can be combined and that might probably be a good idea. I've had a fair amount of experience w/it w/humans, internally and externally and met w/many a doctor about treatment courses. The Nystatin is pretty much a standard, and if you'd ever had it internally, you'd probably choose Nystatin w/the vinegar as a back up, but not primary course.

fp


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## snyder

Im sure most of you are wondering what has been going on with Snyder so I will give a quick update. The past few days he has still been leaking out of the upper hole(from the crop puncture) and lower hole(from my incision) in his crop when ever I feed him. Even if I do get the steel feeding tube into his stomach hole (and bypass the other two leaky holes ) it sometimes backs up and leaks anyways. It has been frusterating. He has continued to lose about 10g/day since the surgery. He was about 215g pre surgery, then has been dropping until yesterday he was 165g. He was starting to get pretty weak too, when he attempts to fly now he can barely lift off the ground or even get any air.( He does this when Im preparing his food and he gets really excited about it and I cant stop him from trying to access it NOW!) His toes on his broken leg he also stopped using. He started walking on it with his toes curled under and didnt try to correct it anymore. These were all bad signs that he was getting weaker and that he was still losing weight even tho he was getting some food. 

I have been talking with Pidgey and he has been suggesting that I try for another surgery and attempt to close up the holes in his crop and clean out as much of the necrotic tissue as I can. I am still toying with the idea, and my reservations are due to lack of putting the bird under. I will be cutting and working with live tissue and it will be painful for him. My other option is to put the little guy out of his downward spiral and euthanize him. I hate the thought of that but several people, including vets, told me that if he is still losing weight after he is being fed and getting fluids it is a bad bad sign. By the way, I spoke with the vet and got a price on the surgery. Its a whopping $600 and not possible for me to afford ever. I then told him I was going to do it myself, and asked him if he could give me some supplies (suture thread, needle, ect), but he wasnt able to, which is understandable.

Last night between 8pm to 5pm today I managed to get roughly 50cc of food/pedialyte into him. I just weighed him and he is up to 175g! I am really happy to see that he gained some weight. I will keep giving him that much food and hopefully tomorrow he will have gained more weight. This is a good sign for me to continue to attempt to keep him alive. I am still waiting to hear back from the other people who helped me last time, to see if they are willing to give it another go. I will let you know what I decide tomorrow.


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## Pidgey

This has truly been the toughest pigeon problem that I've dealt with, and at long distance to boot. If we can get the bird back to gaining weight and feeling better (the drugs should really be starting to kick in about now) then the surgery should be feasible. 

I'll be working on another care package of procedural info for Snyder today that will cover the heretofore referenced procedures and anatomy that we haven't gone into great detail about, yet (like "debriding"). I'm also going to research the possibility of using local anesthetics like anbesol and lidocaine because those could really make this a lot easier.

I swear, if this bird makes it through all this to lead a normal life, he's going to have to be a pet pigeon for five years just to pay off the debt! The more pain and agony that you put into a loved one, the more you end up loving them and there's nothing you can do about that, it's just "nature."

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Snyder & Pidgey,

Thank you for finding time to update everyone here.

I salute you both for your patience and diligence in finding solutions to help this youngster with all these challenging issues. If anyone can come up with the solution it is you two, working together.

My thoughts and my prayers are with you both and the little pigeon.

Treesa


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## pigeonmama

You want suture material, I'll send you some. You want silk or self absorbable, just let me know. I'll check here either later tonight or tomorrow early and will pick up suture while I'm at work.
Daryl


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## Reti

I can send you lidocaine if you need. Let me know.

Reti


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## Pidgey

Ya'll are just absolutely wonderful people! (ceptin' ah'm a' stihl'a' fewdin' with pigeonmama, you wiley Nawthuhnuh, you!)

Anyhow, the location is in Honolulu and we're going to hold the surgery for a day or so to let the bird come back to the land of the living. Last report was that he weighed in at 195 grams so that's getting better. She said that he usually gets real excited when she waves the feeding syringe but the last time he just looked at her like <Burp! Naw, Ma, ain't hongry now.> and walked back into his box. 

According to folks that I know who have done this stuff "on the cheap", they've used (of all things) plain cotton thread to do the stitching and I'm actually talking about crops. Now, that obviously sounds a bit rustic but I guess it works.

I sent her an Express mail package today and they told me that it would be there tomorrow by the afternoon. I'm not sure when she wants to schedule the surgery but if you all have materials and she would like to use them then I'll notify her to get in touch with you for address and contact info.

Reti, is that injectable or topical lidocaine? I thought that anyone could get the topical from any pharmacy as an over-the-counter item so you might clarify your thoughts. I did notice in the book that you can overdo it with columbiformes because procaine and lidocaine are slightly toxic to them (can kill). So, if you supply that, you'd need to give explicit instructions on its application.

She should get on here later to report--I'll make sure that she knows of your offers. And, really, you all ARE the sweetest people and I'm going to really make a generous gesture here by forgiving Pigeonmama for SENDING IN THE BUTT-BUTTS!

After all--some of you did encourage her so she can't be completely to blame!

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Pidgey said:


> I'm going to really make a generous gesture here by forgiving Pigeonmama for SENDING IN THE BUTT-BUTTS!
> 
> After all--some of you did encourage her so she can't be completely to blame!
> 
> Pidgey


Yes, I still agree with that course of action...Daryl...Prepare the Butt butts for offensive manoeuvers


Good work Pidgey, everyone with all of your incredible offers and efforts in this sad case. I hope the outcome is positive considering all the patience and help that has been offered here.


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## snyder

Wow..it is wonderful that everyone is willing to pitch in and send me supplies! If you can email me at [email protected] then I can give you my address so you can send some supplies. The only thing to consider is that I do live in Hawaii and sometimes packages can take awhile to get out here. Since he is gaining weight right now, I think I am aiming for a surgery on Saturday evening. If you think that you can send it to me that quickly then by all means you can email me. 

I would mostly want the suture thread because I dont know how sterile the cotton thread can really be or if its too thick or will cause friction, and also if you have a suturing needle that would be great too (I tried asking the vets to borrow this stuff but that wasnt going to happen). Pidgey told me that some stores sell curved needles for sewing so I will check that out tonight, but Im not sure if they will be as thin as the real thing. Of course if we can get some lidocane that would be wonderful as well, but I think Pidgey said the over the counter kind might be just fine. Thanks again!


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## Reti

The Lidocaine I have is 20mg/ml.
It's use is for infiltration and nerve block (not for apidural use)
I also have nylon sutures (two of them) with needle.

Let me know so I can mail them in the morning.

Reti


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## pigeonmama

Reti can get suture out sooner, as I'm headed to work soon. Wouldn't be able to get package out til tomorrow at soonest. I can send Reti replacement suture material if she sends hers, if this will help.
Daryl
That's O.K., Pidgey, your time is coming. I just have to think of the best way to get you !


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## Reti

I can send Reti replacement suture material if she sends hers, if this will help.
Daryl


Thanks, Daryl. I might be able to get some more.

Reti


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## snyder

Today we were supposed to do the surgery to close up his crop puncture and incision, but I have decided not to go through with that. Last night was pretty rough for him, and certain circumstances have helped me decide that the best thing for Snyder is to have him euthanized. Trust me when I say it is with a heavy heart and thousans of tears that I have come to this extremely difficult decision. I hate the idea of having to do it, but I feel at this point it will end his suffering. I know that several people are against the concept of euthanizing, but I think that he has been through so much already and I dont see things getting much easier for him in the future. It is not something I am turning to lightly, I have thought and thought about this for weeks, doing everything I could to prolong his life. Last night was a deciding factor that convinced me he is starting a downward spiral. Let me explain why.

As you know he had been gaining weight since wednesday (10g/day), but yesterday he maintained at about 195-197g. He also started being more puffed up than usual and sitting around. I weighed him this morning and he lost 7g and is 190g, despite being fed the same amount of food. He lost interest in his feeds (hopefully because he was full, but maybe it was because he was starting to feel sick again) and started getting the thick mucus wad in his throat again yesterday. I hadnt seen that since before the first surgery so I assumed his candida infection was under control. But it has been 6 days since he started the Nystatin, and the first 4 days he was without this mucus in his throat, and now its back and worse than before. Before when it would bulge up in his throat I would hold him upside down and he would spit it out. It would stay cleared for several hours before it built up again, but this time it only takes about 5 mins before his throat is full of the stuff again.

Because this mucus is so thick, nothing can pass by it to get to his crop. I tried pedialyte and it just came back up. Even if I sewed up his crop holes, he still wounldnt be able to get food down there on his own, which is the entire point of the surgery. I want him to be able to live a normal life without having to be tube fed every meal. I have also had trouble since last nite to make it down to his stomach hole with the feeding tube. It feels like there is more obstruction/obstacles in the path to the stomach tube. Surely this also makes it harder for any food/liquids to make it down there since it is literally like a maze. I think Pidgey mentioned a "turkish towel" that can accompany a candida infection and that is certainly what it feels like. I think that his crop is so small and damaged at this point it may never become fully functional again, and this turkish towel is only making the volume in there smaller and harder to access.

I spoke with the vet and he told me that the Nystatin should start working in at least 4 days, but also said that as long as he is on antibiotics then the candida would always flare up under stressful conditions like being sick, or all the other problems Snyder has. It seems that this is truly an uphill battle for the little guy, and he is slowly losing. Its been breaking my heart to watch this happen. Last night he also had a really hard time breathing. I think he might have aspirated some of that mucus into his lungs. He was breathing with his beak open when I put him in his cage for bed around 12am, and he was still breathing like that in the morning around 7am. He felt better and could breath better after I got the mucus out of his throat this morning, but just wanted to sit in his box, puffed up instead of eating. 

He also struggles a lot more now when I tube feed him, because it seems to hurt him as I manuever my way down there. And like I mentioned, it is getting harder for me to find the hole with the turkish towel getting more prominent. Maybe he is getting an aversion to being tube fed, but he has no other options at this point. He cant swallow anything, and he still leaks. Even seeds get stuck in his throat or at a divot in his throat near the puncture, but it never gets to the crop. I think I have tried just about everything. Overall his appearance is pretty awful, his beak is peeling because he scratches often and its also very pale, and his eyes have dark rings around them. I have read some literature and it is also possible that he has an aspergillus infection in his lungs as well. He has most of the clinical signs, and worst of all I am pretty sure he has had exposure to it. 

I honestly dont know how to help him anymore. I am physically and mentally exhausted, and my heart cant take much more of him suffering like this. Everytime he starts doing better, he has a setback like this. Its becoming a pattern that I am afraid will never end. I think keeping him around would be selfish of me, because I just love him that much and want him in my life. But the reality of it is that he probably has more infections or problems that I dont know about or cant fix. 

I also havent been doing any real work at my job for the past 3 weeks because of this (thankfully my boss is understanding, but only to a point), and school will be starting for me in 2 weeks. My schedule will be packed with classes and work. I will be out from 7am-8pm almost every day and wouldnt be able to give him a fraction of the time I give him now (which is pretty much 24/7 care). If I thought he would be able to feed on his own, then I would have more hope, but if this candida infection is going to be an ongoing thing, it doesnt seem likely. It also wouldnt be fair to him reguardless, because I would have to leave him alone for so many hours. He has become quite used to being cuddled and cooed to relax him (and so have I). You know, he has been quite my little angel since all this began, and he has been a trooper in all that he has gone through physically. I still cant believe how strong he is, but he cant go on like this forever. I am begining to see him start to deteriorate now, and I dont want him to suffer.

I love him more than I can express and am grateful that I was blessed to have him in my life even if it was only for a month and a half. It was quite an enriching experience for my life and I will never regret all the effort I have put in to caring for him. I will also never forget the incredible support I have gotten from all the wonderful people on this website (esp Pidgey, Reti). You cant even imagine how your advice, help, and hope have done for Snyder and myself. You guys are truly angels. 

The zoo vet has agreed to euthanize him with me this afternoon, and we will also perform a small necropsy to find out what was really going on in all that mess in his neck, crop and lungs. Hopefully what I learn will be able to help someone else one day. I think I will make one more posting maybe Monday to let you know the results. I will go to this "Bird Haven" sometime next week and let them know everything that happened. Once again THANK YOU all so much for your prayers, advice, and efforts to save Snyder. It has meant everything to me and I have learned so much in the past few weeks not only about emergency care and surgery for pigeons, but also how deeply I could love this tiny rescued bird. Mahalo nui...


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## pigeonmama

Snyder,
You have done so much for this little bird, tried so hard. I wish things could gone better, and the outcome could have been better for both of you. No one here could have done more, believe me. Now, the best thing you can do is hold that little love when his suffering is ended, and after, take him to a beautiful place where his spirit can fly free.
Now, even if this is your only pigeon, please stay with us. We are all family here, and you have to stay in contact with your family. THIS IS YOUR OTHER MOTHER TELLING YOU !! YOUR MOTHER IN MAINE. Oh, by the way, I'll be down to stay with you for 2 weeks, child ! (Don't I wish)
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC

Dear Snyder - you are absolutely doing the right thing. I have rehabbed for 12 years and I honestly don't think I could have done the things you have done to save this little guy. Just look at how long he has lived because of the great care and love you have given him. Sometimes though, it is time to tell them that its ok to let go.

I wish you the very best in your life and hope that after school, and when you get settled, you can get another pigeon. They are truly marvelous creatures. God bless. I am truly sorry.


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## Reti

I am so sorry you have to make this decision, but I certainly undestand. I admire you for all you did for this little angel and for the final decision you made, it is the right thing to do at this time. 

Bless you.

Reti


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## TAWhatley

Ohhh Snyder,

I am so sorry. Words are inadequate .. just know that my heart is breaking with yours. Truly, you did all you could, more than even most vets would have or could have, and bless you for it all. The most special blessing is the last one .. and that is for ending the suffering of this bird. You have given the gift of a painless passing while in the hands of someone who loved.

Terry


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## feralpigeon

I'm very sorry to hear about Snyder and how difficult it was for both of you towards the end. It must have been pretty scary for Snyder as well, and I'm sure he felt your sincere caring and protection in all of the choices you made.

I hope in the aftermath of this riveting experience that you take as good care of yourself as you did for Snyder, for sure, he'd want it that way.

fp


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## pdpbison

Hi snyder,


Well you both sure gave it a hell of a try...

I am sorry it did not work out.

Get some rest...

I know these things can sure wear one down and you do not realize how worn down you got.


God Bless...

Phil
las vegas


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## snyder

Thank you all so much for your kind words, and indeed I have found a wonderful family here! I will just give you a quick update on how things went after I posted that last message. 

I took Snyder home and we had about 3 hours before our appt with the zoo vet, so I just laid with him, crying, explaining and apologizing to him... and holding him. I think at that point he started to show me that he was ready to give up the battle as well. For the first time, he just sat down in my hand, all puffed up and slept. He has never really sat down and relaxed in my hands like that. He also had a hard time holding his his head up. I could feel a small wheezing every breath he took, and he also had small coughing fits and breathing irregularities. The final straw (if I wasnt already convinced he needed to be put down) was that he had two small seizures in each of his legs. I also tried to give him a little ball of dry/pasty food as a last attempt to find a reason to keep him around, but it took two hours for it to make it down only 1cm to start leaking out of his upper hole. It never made it anywhere near his stomach with that mucus wad still restricting his throat. Also his body started smelling a little pungent, like feces. 

After he was put down, the vet and I did a small necrospy so I could know what really was going on. Well first off, I am glad to know that he was actually a boy since I had been calling him that all along. Second we found out that, the area the wound was in was actually not the crop. That whole area was the esophagus infected beyond belief. The incision that I made (that I assumed was the bottom of his crop) was actually the bottom of his esophagus, and the hole I thought I was using to access his stomach tube directly, was only the entrance to his crop. The crop was intact, and though it wasnt completely healthy tissue, it wasnt necrotic. This revelation amazed me. I guess I didnt realize how long the esophagus was, but the entire thing was completely infected and surrounded by necrotic tissue. As time went on this infection just got worse and worse (presumably by a bacteria that wasnt susceptible to his anitbiotics) and was closing his esophagus off slowly but surely. He never would have been able to get any food or liquid down to his crop, and that ongoing candida infection wasnt going to help either. At least now I know that even if I would have done the surgery that he didnt have much of a chance anyways, and that I ended his suffering early. I think the infection was also in his trachea or the surrounding inflammed esophagus was squeezing the trachea so that is why he started having more trouble breathing. Another interesting discovery was his liver was discolored(brown) and was damaged from a bacterial infection that wasnt being treated. Overall the vet said his chances of surviving would have been minimal. 

I miss Snyder terribly and hate waking up and not seeing him ready for breakfast or to come out and nuzzle with me. I did go to the Bird Haven this morning to inform them of the event that occured in thier care. The guy in charge completely denied anything even after I told him how all the evidence pointed to the puncture/crop burn occuring there. (Im referring to the number of days it took for the burn to show up(textbook 3-5 days), the fact that they microwave thier food, and the fact that it was Kaytee that came out of his body cavity during the surgery (thier formula of choice) while I have only fed him the Abba Green up to that point). I think he knew it must have been him, because the most obvious clue was the type of food that was found. Reguardless he didnt want to admit to anything, and practically blamed me, saying it was impossible for it to have been him. That really upset me, but all I could do was keep reminding him that I was just there to inform him so it could be prevented in the future. I hope it made some difference, but based on his arrogance I doubt it. 

I do hope that in the future, when I have more time and resources that I can find a baby pigeon in need of a new mother. At least I know everything that can go wrong and will do my best to prevent this from happening ever again. I will stay in touch as best I can, but life is about to get busy for me as the semester starts. Mahalo for everything and then some!


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## feralpigeon

Again, I'm so sorry about poor Snyder, I tear up w/your posts on your last few days together and especially your last few hours, it does seem as though Snyder knew what was happening and that he couldn't hold on. Words aren't enough, I hope that when the time is right for you, another sweet pij will come your way under better circumstances.

fp


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## pigeonmama

I'm so glad the suffering is over for both of you. Now, you need to recover. Remember, we'll always be here for you, with you. Do a good job with school. Make your family proud !!
Hugs and much love,
Daryl


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi there, 

I'm terribly sorry that you had to make the agonizing decision to put Snyder down dispite your superhuman efforts to save him. I have been reading your story but I really didn't have anything to offer so I kept quiet. I think you did the right thing to euthanize this suffering pigeon. Sometimes the kindest thing a person can do is end the suffering of an animal and I think we all learned a little something from all of this.

Hopefully the person you spoke to at the Bird Haven will reconsider and acknowledge that they made a mistake with the overheating of the formula that caused the intial crop burn. Perhaps even though they wouldn't admit fault to you, they will change their methods for the birds sake.

Good luck and best wishes to you in your schooling and upcoming busy schedule. Take care.


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## Skyeking

Snyder,

Thank you for taking the time to update us.

I'm so sorry about the decision you had to make, but it was ultimately what was for the good of the pigeon. You did the right thing. I know how deeply saddened you must be, as I and some of us here have experienced the loss of a pigeon, we grew close too. It is a wonderful time when we bond and become ammused by their antics, but it creates an equally heart wrenching time when they pass.

The fact that the person at the "Bird Haven" was so in denial, was probably because he/she knew deep inside that you were right. Let's pray that this person will realize the mistake to his or herself, and change things for the sake of the innocent birds, as Brad mentioned.

You are a brave and strong person for your commitment to this pigeon, and to the truth, and you saw this thru all the way to the end, as hard as it was, you were there to comfort the little pigeon, when he needed you most, at the end of his earhty life, and that is what counts the most.

I'm sending you all the comfort I can, and many good wishes in your coming school year and in your vocation. I pray that someday, you will have the chance to come upon another pigeon, that will also bring you joy, without the sadness. Best wishes to you!

Treesa


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