# Two color questions....



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Hey guys, I have two quick questions. What color young will I get if I breed a red check cock with a blue bar hen? 

Secondly, how are black pigeons produced? What colors are crossed in order to produce black offspring?

Thanks

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey, Question 1. does the cock carry blue? You can know this by checking his tail and flights for dark flecks, Or if he came from either a blue cock or a blue hen we know he carries blue. With these questions answered I can give you some idea. Also. Did the red check come from a barred bird at all????

Blacks are produced by combining the spread gene with blue. You can make birds that are almost black but have blue tails by using a good T Pattern Velvet and dirty.

The best blacks are homozygous for spread, Also carrying 1 or more dirty genes, On a T pattern base with 1 or more bronzes.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Hey, Question 1. does the cock carry blue? You can know this by checking his tail and flights for dark flecks, Or if he came from either a blue cock or a blue hen we know he carries blue. With these questions answered I can give you some idea. Also. Did the red check come from a barred bird at all????
> 
> Blacks are produced by combining the spread gene with blue. You can make birds that are almost black but have blue tails by using a good T Pattern Velvet and dirty.
> 
> The best blacks are homozygous for spread, Also carrying 1 or more dirty genes, On a T pattern base with 1 or more bronzes.


Thanks for the reply. I'll look specifically for that and post a couple pics of him. Thanks!

I dont know much of his heritage as he was gifted to me... Sorry about that.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

No worries

Basically - If the cock carries blue you will get colour wise

25% blue hens, 
25% blue cocks 
25% red cocks 
25% red hens


If the check carries bar you will get 50% barred birds and 50% checks within the colour ratios above.

If the cockbird is homozygous for red you will only produce red young but all the cocks will carry blue.

All young from this pairing will carry bar if they are not barred.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Here are some pictures of the cock in question....

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg110/V-John/20130123_164419.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg110/V-John/20130123_164439.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg110/V-John/20130123_164523.jpg

I hope this helps and greatly appreciate your help. 
I an unsure of his back ground but i think his nest mate is a red check too.
John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey, Good pics, It appears he does not have any visible flecks so he could be homozygous for red but I cannot be 100% sure without having the bird inhand.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Also he appears tcheck so you could get all range of checks and bars or you could end up with all T checks like him, Thats part of the fun, Update the thread or a new one when they have some young, If you breed 6 of them we can start to make slightly more informed guesses as to what he is for sure.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Also he appears tcheck so you could get all range of checks and bars or you could end up with all T checks like him, Thats part of the fun, Update the thread or a new one when they have some young, If you breed 6 of them we can start to make slightly more informed guesses as to what he is for sure.


Thanks Evan, I appreciate the help. It at least helps give me an idea of what to expect....... Expect anything!  

I will report back though, This pair has had some issues with eggs earlier this year, and they just laid another pair (second egg hit the ground a day ago) so it will be a while, but I'll post some pics. I appreciate the feedback though.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

V-John said:


> Hey guys, I have two quick questions. What color young will I get if I breed a red check cock with a blue bar hen?
> 
> Secondly, how are black pigeons produced? What colors are crossed in order to produce black offspring?
> 
> ...


That cock you have appears to be a T-checker **** ash-red so if you mate that with a blue bar hen, you should get nothing but red youngs. All the young cocks will be ash-red carrying blue and all the hens will be ash-red.

The only thing that would mess this up is if the cock is carrying blue but from both pictures, it appears to be a **** ash-red as fleckings are USUALLY visible in the tail. 

As for Black, it's also as NZ stated. You need spread on blue to get black. Without spread, you will not get black, although you can get close to black if you have a heavily t-checker blue with dirty.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it. 

Forgive my ignorance... But what is "spread"? Is it a genetic thing, or something can be seen, as far as markings go? 

Sorry that may be a dumb question, but this color thing is a bit new to me. 

John


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

V-John said:


> Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.
> 
> Forgive my ignorance... But what is "spread"? Is it a genetic thing, or something can be seen, as far as markings go?
> 
> ...


Spread is a genetic mutation that is a factor and it spreads the color over the entire bird. Notice the "black" bars on a blue bar? When a pigeon is spread blue aka black, that color on the bars is basically spread over the entire body. When you have an all black pigeon, it covers the pattern so you might not know what it will throw. A black pigeon can be checkered or barred under the spread.

As spread ash red is what we like to call lavender.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Spread gene spreads the color of *tail bar* over the entire bird.



2y4life said:


> Spread is a genetic mutation that is a factor and it spreads the color over the entire bird. Notice the "black" bars (*tail bar*) on a blue bar? When a pigeon is spread blue aka black, that color on the bars (*tail bar*) is basically spread over the entire body. When you have an all black pigeon, it covers the pattern so you might not know what it will throw. A black pigeon can be checkered or barred under the spread.
> 
> As spread ash red is what we like to call lavender (because the *tail bar* of an ash red bird is ash).


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

2y4life said:


> Spread is a genetic mutation that is a factor and it spreads the color over the entire bird. Notice the "black" bars on a blue bar? When a pigeon is spread blue aka black, that color on the bars is basically spread over the entire body. When you have an all black pigeon, it covers the pattern so you might not know what it will throw. A black pigeon can be checkered or barred under the spread.
> 
> As spread ash red is what we like to call lavender.


 well that is something i didnt know... wow so blacks have markings just like panthers have spots?? COOOOOOL


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I heard another explanation for spread action.
Blue is the effect of clumped black pigment. If that pigment is unclumped (or spread) by the action of the Spread gene, the effect would be a black bird.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey Henk, Thats the technical version


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

I'm sorry I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this spread concept. Can someone post a link to a picture of spread I can check out? Or of some examples? Thanks!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Basically, Look at the subterminal tail bar of a brown, blue or ash red ( less visible ), Spread takes that colour and "spreads" it over the entire body.

A blue bar has a black tail bar so it becomes self black.


An ash red spread goes silver with a bit of red showing through

Brown has a dark brown tail bar so goes dark brown all over.
Here are some spread birds of mine.










Blue










Blue

Will get a brown later and an ash red

This is NOT A SPREAD but lots of people would assume this is what ash red spread looks like, Infact its the opposite, Most if not all this red would be washed out to grey to be inline with the tail bar colour


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Thanks. Nice looking birds BTW. 

I'll have to look at my guys closely.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

ash red with spread can be very variable. You can get the silver/lavender looking ones if you are lucky, but also so called strawberry and mahogany. In my theory depending on the wing pattern genes and darkening genes (dirty etc...)


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