# Pbfd



## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Well, I think Shelby may have PBFD being she still has no feathers around the front her her neck, lower chest, and has been losing feathers but not at the shaft, they seem to be broken off and why would she lose any at 4 weeks of age anyways. I can also see the many bone structures in her wings while they are closed..

Now, being I have 2 baby Doves, my other (Rocky) he now has feathers hanging from underneath him, where before he was always solid, fully feathered...I need this like a hole in the head, maybe thats better! And if they do have this, I just put my entire flock of budgies at risk..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0dDAmmJQks

In this Video, you may be able to see what I mean via Shelby, all black in color, no broken feathers yet at that time which was taken 2 weeks ago..Rocky at this time was fine too That said, has anyone heard of any medications (experiment or Not) that has been found yet? 



Thanks


Anthony


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Is it possible for you to have DNA probe done?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

PDFB is a virus that affects PARROTS & HOOKBILLS (Including Budgies) but not Pigeons.

Lack of feathers in this area can be a sign of canker, but from your description It sounds more like the feathers are breaking because they are brittle rather than just not growing.

Question, - when you were hand feeding these birds with formula, did you wipe any spillage off their feathers after feeding ?
Also, do they have a bath at all (I know they are a bit young) ?
Starch from the formula or from warmed peas & corn can cause this.
I have often found that hand reared birds have a lack of feathers around where formula has spilled as the formula can dry and prevent feathers from developing properly. This is most noticable down the front of their neck, and can also stretch down the breast area.
It also happens when feeding warmed corn & peas if any too much liquid from the peas & corn dribbles down their front.
Even wiping off any excess with a damp cloth can cause this effect as usually it only dilutes & spreads the spillage but the residue is wiped further into the feathers and is still there to dry in.
Spraying or misting them with warm water after a feeding, and pat drying rather than wiping sometimes helps.
The feathers will normally grow back in through time, but they can still appear thin around the areas till the bird has its first moult.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

from the vid..esp the black one.. this baby is bald! under the wing esp.. etc... something more than just dried formula is going on.


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey Q,

Are you very sure Doves cannot get PBFD?? If so, why not? I have read that they do and this looks very much like it to the T..I have feathers that have broke clean off...And I have been treating her for Trich/Canker via Metro...


Thanks again 

Anthony


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

I have not provided formula in about 2 weeks now..And yes, gave them a pretty good bath, not that well because they are still young, but pretty good since I used a dryer to dry them...And its very old, 5 Years, no Teflon  Well, its either a bad case of Canker (can't be, mouth is clear, nothing else shows..or its Giardia, or again PBFD, PDD, Poxy? not sure what else would cause what I'm seeing...Again, her feathers are breaking off clean...I will see about getting more shots of her soon once I get my Budgies outside..


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

budgie14 said:


> Hey Q,
> 
> Are you very sure Doves cannot get PBFD?? If so, why not? I have read that they do and this looks very much like it to the T..I have feathers that have broke clean off...And I have been treating her for Trich/Canker via Metro...
> 
> ...




PBFD - *Psittacine* Beak and Feather Disease 

Pigeons are not *PSITTACINAE*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psittacines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbidae



spirit wings said:


> from the vid..esp the black one.. this baby is bald! under the wing esp.. etc... something more than just dried formula is going on.


Obviously dried formula isnt going to affect UNDER the wings, but remember these birds are only around 3-4 weeks old.
Some youngsters take longer to develop underwing feathers than others (especially if not reared by parents) 
Ive rescued many young that have taken a few weeks to completely feather under the wing.


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/circo/circo.html

This is just about the same but for Doves/Pigeons....the other issue is, I have not been able to get these guys on the roof again because Rocky can fly..I would like for them to get some needed sun (ie D-3) especially the foods they eat...I would also rule out worms since I gave them a dosage of Ivermectin about 2 weeks ago..

Any ideas on how I can get them some Sun? I don't have a cage big enough...so, this may be causing an issue too..


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Quazar said:


> PBFD - *Psittacine* Beak and Feather Disease
> 
> Pigeons are not *PSITTACINAE*
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psittacines
> ...


I thought the same before I saw the bird.

Did you check the bird out.. it is an abnormal loss or lack of feathers. maybe you can find out what it is as you seem to have more knowledge. Iam clueless. fungal problems come to mind?...the bird is really bald like slick bald on his face and under the wing on the body too.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> I thought the same before I saw the bird.
> 
> Did you check the bird out.. it is an abnormal loss or lack of feathers. maybe you can find out what it is as you seem to have more knowledge. Iam clueless. fugal problems come to mind?...the bird is really bald like slick bald on his face and under the wing on the body too.


I did watch the vid, but to be honest the autofocus pixelates the vid to much so quality is blurry, especially around closeups. Even under the wings didnt look too bad. I really didnt think it looked much different from some Ive rescued in the past. 
While I would understand that situation in a loft enviroment causing more concern at that age, from a feral viewpoint and change of feeding, things can and normally do proceed at a slower rate.



budgie14 said:


> .....Any ideas on how I can get them some Sun? I don't have a cage big enough...so, this may be causing an issue too..


You dont nescessarilly need a large cage, just one big enough to contain them both comfortably. It is onlya temporary situation so as long as they have room to move comfortably without "standing" on each other then that should be fine.


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

LOL..Well, so much for that...I just added my other 2 Budgies into the flight cage after their Quarantine, but there is no way Rocky or Shelby will fit through the door...The flight cage would be perfect!! but....What about using a kite string, maybe like 6 feet just in case he tries to lift? I could make a loose loop around his foot...

Don't know...Sigh..How far can they fly at 1 Month of age? Perhaps I can bring him downstairs in the parking lot for 1/2 an hour..All I want is some Sun on them and maybe get some time with a few other birds..

Thanks!

Anthony


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey Q,

Stand by a bit..I just got my guys outside and will take another Vid of Rocky & Shelby..Going to see if I can adjust the Cam any better first..If not, then I will try a few stand alone shots...


Thanks!


Anthony


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

budgie14 said:


> LOL..Well, so much for that...I just added my other 2 Budgies into the flight cage after their Quarantine, but there is no way Rocky or Shelby will fit through the door...The flight cage would be perfect!! but....What about using a kite string, maybe like 6 feet just in case he tries to lift? *I could make a loose loop around his foot*...
> 
> Don't know...Sigh..How far can they fly at 1 Month of age? Perhaps I can bring him downstairs in the parking lot for 1/2 an hour..All I want is some Sun on them and maybe get some time with a few other birds..
> 
> ...


String is a def no no.
If he did take off they have surprising force when flying andit could easilly rip his leg off or at the least prob break it

Even a cardbord box with a grill or something like a cake cooling rack on top of it would help.
(my soft release cage is actually made from several cake cooling trays held together with tie wraps lol)


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Well, I guess I will be holding Rocky then..LOL...Shelby is not an issue, has very little lift as of now..But since I'm already having a bad day, how much you wanna bet she finds it and takes off...LOL


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Cake eh? mmmmm I have an order..

1- Banana Cake with Vanilla Iceing

2- Banana Cake Plain

3- Your Home Made Crumb Cake

4-Go to You Tube and make some home made Twinkies...RUFF!!

I'm okay now, 3RD World thingy, miss certain foods..lol


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

now I want banana cake..............


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I would strongly recommend you treat again for canker as 99% of all pigeons hatch with the parasite in their body. Just because their throat looks clear of yellow nodules, does not mean they do not have canker. More often than not, canker is the internal variety and is the leading cause of lack of feathers around the face and neck area.


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Okay, here's the new Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3l3U5pIPFo


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey Charis,

Yes, still going with Metro, have another 8 days but will go longer should she show an improvement. Also, I'm going to try treating her to beak since its been in water, However, both have been drinking their water with no problems at all, very good birds!









Charis said:


> I would strongly recommend you treat again for canker as 99% of all pigeons hatch with the parasite in their body. Just because their throat looks clear of yellow nodules, does not mean they do not have canker. More often than not, canker is the internal variety and is the leading cause of lack of feathers around the face and neck area.


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Are we thinking that Shelby has Trich/Canker?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The grey/black pigeon sure does look better from the last vid from a few weeks ago.. The feathers are growing.. so not sure what the fuss was about..lol..

I would treat them for canker reguardless.


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Yea he does, that's Rocky...The issue I had was, he started to lose his feathers underneath him and his lower chest out of nowhere. So, I can only assume that Shelby is/was infested with Trich and has given it to Rocky, same reason I started both on Doxy...Its said what? 70-90% of Pigeons/Doves have or are carriers of quite a few diseases...So, I am treating both for it (Trich) and I also made an Ivermectin spray for their mites..I use 1 cc in 1 Litre water via a spray bottle, works great on my Budgies since I have seen quite a few fly like mites around because of those Doves...I think most of you pros's will know what I'm talking about...They look like flies, and they will certainly infect any bird with trich, mites, etc should they bite a well bird from an ill bird. They can be seen on the other Doves here, and man! do they move fast..They run around the outside of the bird, then zoom!! goes inside the feathers and gone..

Like I said a few times, its time to move from here for the sake of my well birds..I think I will be keeping Rocky & Shelby, its no life for them around here really...If they had some good parks or beaches IO would take them there, but again, quite the 3RD World here..

Thanks!

Ant


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

budgie14 said:


> Yea he does, that's Rocky...The issue I had was, he started to lose his feathers underneath him and his lower chest out of nowhere. So, I can only assume that Shelby is/was infested with Trich and has given it to Rocky, same reason I started both on Doxy...Its said what? 70-90% of Pigeons/Doves have or are carriers of quite a few diseases...So, I am treating both for it (Trich) and I also made an Ivermectin spray for their mites..I use 1 cc in 1 Litre water via a spray bottle, works great on my Budgies since I have seen quite a few fly like mites around because of those Doves...I think most of you pros's will know what I'm talking about...They look like flies, and they will certainly infect any bird with trich, mites, etc should they bite a well bird from an ill bird. They can be seen on the other Doves here, and man! do they move fast..They run around the outside of the bird, then zoom!! goes inside the feathers and gone..
> 
> Like I said a few times, its time to move from here for the sake of my well birds..I think I will be keeping Rocky & Shelby, its no life for them around here really...If they had some good parks or beaches IO would take them there, but again, quite the 3RD World here..
> 
> ...


those are called pigeon louse fly and the bite is painful and irritating..I would get rid of them asap.

These are the drugs use for canker, Doxy is not listed as one of them.

Dimetridazole (Emtryl)

Ronidazole (Ridsol)

Metronidazole (Flagyl)

Carnidazole (Spartrix)


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Sorry,

same reason I started both on Doxy...Its said what? 70-90% of Pigeons/Doves have or are carriers of quite a few diseases...I should have said that I treated them for Chlamydia from day one since both had some Kawki Green Droppings and Rocky seemed to have Conjunctivitis in both eyes..

I have all of the common meds for the common illnesses, and even use Clove in the wild Doves water when I feed them...Pretty cool vid via YouTube! since Clove is said to cure or fend off quite a few Parasites...You can take a few Cloves, pop some hole in it via a pin, then soak the Clove in water for about 30 minutes or so and poof! Clove water...I understand that Most Doves/pigeons love Clove, so it seems to me its a great natural fix for many illnesses or to be used as a prevention..


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Anthony,

Pigeons and doves can get something very similar to PBFD, but it looks like you don't need to worry about your pigeons infecting your budgies with it or the other way around. Here's some information written by two avian vets: 

"Circoviruses are a newly described group that includes Pigeon Circovirus, Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease (PBFD) and Chicken Anemia Agent (CAA). Detailed laboratory studies confirm that these viruses are similar to one another (they share some portions of their DNA), but there is no known cross-over of disease agents from one group of birds to another." 

You can read the whole article here: http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/circo/circo.html

But I wouldn't worry about it too much - Shelby looks much better in the new video - her belly which was bare before now looks filed with feathers. So either the canker treatment is working, or this was going to happen anyway. I forget - how long did you have them on canker meds the first time and how long ago was that?


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey NCY, long time..

Thanks for the new info, was a bit concerned there...Yes, it seems the Metro is working very well with Shelby...I never stopped yet, started with Doxy first to address their possible Chlamydia which also as worked very well in only 15 days, then stopped, so far so good! Droppings look normal since, Rocky's eyes you can finally see and how cute he really looks now where before he looked like a rat..LOL

I started the Metro about 1 week after the Doxy, was going to make a cocktail of Doxy, Metro, and Baytril, but thought better of it because they are so young and some feed back here as well.I'd say its been 7 days now, and I planned to stop on day 14 ONLY if I feel its been eradicated so we don't have any resistant issues later and especially since Budgies can get this too..Its the only med I can find here in the DR for Trich, so I really need to be careful. I tried to order Megabac-S, but shipment is off the chain...

Overall, Shelby did show improvement on day 2, started to finally cry to be feed where before she never made a sound..She is still a tad on the quite side, would really like her to be more vocal like Rocky and other babies I hear outside. So, perhaps she may have pain in her mouth, eats pretty well, both love their Corn, Peas, and rice and always have seed down along with their metro water. That said, they are drinking about 1/2 litre a day, which I use 1.5 cc of Metro in 1 litre water...Do you know if this is good enough for the full duration? (14 days) or, since I only have a few days left, maybe increase the strength since they are drinking it with no taste issues..After all, this Metro is not bad tasting anyways, its actually very sweet..I just want to be sure they are dead and/or dieing!! If they come back, its going to be very hard to fight them again which will only lead to almost a 30 day treatment..

Thanks!

Anthony


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't dose the meds in water because one can never be exact with that and I'm terrible at all things mathematical, so all I can say is that the metro dose is 25-50 mg per day. For a pigeon of Shelby's size it would be 25mg. max. You don't want to do more than 14 days because of the possibility of liver damage with metro, particularly because here you are acting on an assumption of canker, rather than actual observable canker that you can monitor. I've found that after about 10 days on metro, some pigeons begin to regurgitate food even when the medication is given on a full crop. And it should always be given on a full crop.


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## budgie14 (Sep 6, 2011)

Excellent! Glad you brought this up...For me birds are birds, I have also given Rocky & Shelby Tea (Green Tea) every 3 days and before medications for that exact reason. I practice the same with my Budgies should I need to medicate them for more then a few days..I have not found any good probiotics besides Yogurt which is not bad either, but Green Tea is very good to flush Liver & kidneys even if a bird just has loose poop, it will sometimes help if the bacteria is not too strong or just an upset tummy..

Overall, I will stay with what I have and stop in a few days, maybe go 10 more, total of 17 days since again, I can't risk a educated strand of Trich right now.

That said, I have a Avian Med Book of medicines with Dosages if you want a copy, its on PDF..

Anthony


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