# Show Homer extreme light mealys - what factor?



## BCBrian

I have some red bar Show Type Racing Homers in red bar. They are so pale as to amost appear white. What factor do the show homers have that makes some of the red bars appear so faded out? Does this factor appear if these birds are mated to blue? No "genetics people" I've talked with so far - seem to know which factor it is that bleaches out these bird's colours. Any ideas?


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## risingstarfans

This is a tough question. Could we see some pictures? 

In fantails we have the milky factor which washes out several colors, and when other modifiers are present do the darndest things.


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## jbangelfish

*Good question*

Without a picture, it's hard to know for sure what you mean. OTOH, I have some ash red figuritas that are very light also, their ash color is almost white and their red is almost yellow, so light that I thought they were yellows.

Dilute will make them creme but I don't know if that's what you are dealing with. Reduced and pale are also lightening factors but I don't know if you have these factors either. Post a pic if you can and we'll try to figure it out.

Bill


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## george simon

BCBrian said:


> I have some red bar Show Type Racing Homers in red bar. They are so pale as to amost appear white. What factor do the show homers have that makes some of the red bars appear so faded out? Does this factor appear if these birds are mated to blue? No "genetics people" I've talked with so far - seem to know which factor it is that bleaches out these bird's colours. Any ideas?


*HI BCBRIAN, I believe you have MILKY working there I will quote from AXEL SELL'S BOOK BREEDING AND INHERITANCE IN PIGEONS."Milky is a recessive gene not sex linked. On an ash red color basis milky also makes a softer coloration.mealy bars will get a grey-cream coloration with red bars and cream bars will yellow-cream with faint bars.* GEORGE


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## BCBrian

Here are some photos. This factor seems to be the "norm" in the show type racing homers up here in BC. The birds are much different in colour from the racing birds I own.


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## TAWhatley

That is a very, very good looking bird, Brian! I don't have a clue about the genetics involved, but the bird is gorgeous! Thank you for sharing those photos.

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter

My only guess is that it may have spread. Some birds I guess you could say have weaker expressions of it. I think that would cause the bars to slightly show like this, and the color to be near missing on the neck.


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## dimerro

Looks like Milky to me.


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## jbangelfish

*It does look like milky*

Spread would eliminate the bars.

Bill


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## dimerro

BCBrian said:


> This factor seems to be the "norm" in the show type racing homers up here in BC.


Ice is another answer. Here, in Romania, almost all show homers are Ice.


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## jbangelfish

*I'll bet Dina is right*

I wondered about ice but wasn't sure how it would look with ash red. The fact that it's prevalent in this breed makes it very likely and I can imagine that it would look like these birds.

Bill


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## bluecheck

This is a question waiting to be answered. Doc Hollander believed that a lot of birds that had the "gris" head like this one were actually carrying a form of recessive opal (one of those forms actually looks to be ash-red); I don't hold with the milky idea, while possible, it doesn't seem to pop up in the blues that come out of these ash-reds sometimes and if it were milky you'd also expect to at least pop one or two milky blues at some point. I, personally, think it's a genetic mystery still. However, I'm copying these pics and I'm going to send them off to some of the genetics guys to see if there has been more work done on them that I'm unaware of - for the past five years I've sort of been everywhere else except the pigeons.


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## bluecheck

Here's what Paul Gibson says: These look like red-phase recessive opals to me. Paul G.


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## bluecheck

What Paul G. says above actually could make sense. If you are pairing the "ash" to "ash" and getting these, then it could well be the ash-red mimic of recessive opal. It could even be the ash-red mimic of recessive opal over ash-red.


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## BCBrian

If the birds are, in fact, Recessive Opal on a red base, then a loft like mine - with a prevalance of light "washed out" mealies, should have lots of blue-based birds (which are frequently crossed to the red-based birds - with no regard to colour) showing Recessive Opal.

Up here - that is not the case.

Pale, faded-out mealies are very common - but Recessive Opals - in blue - are almost (or are totally) unknown in Show Type Homers around here.

Recessive Opals in blue, are so rare in fact - that I've never seen a single one in a Show Homer.

Yet most shows up here, will have dozens of these faded red bars.


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## bluecheck

Brian,

Are you getting any of these "pale ash-red" OUT of a pair of blues at any time? If so, then they are recessive opal ash-red mimic phase. If not, then I'd have to agree with you. I'm still up in the air over this one.


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## BCBrian

BlueCheck,

I wished I could answer your question - but after years of admiring the breed - only now, am I aquiring them. I've never bred one yet.

As I do - I'll gladly report the genetic lessons learned as they pertain to the "mystery colours" within this beautiful breed.


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## jbangelfish

*I looked in the "Encyclopedia"*

Of Pigeon Breeds by Levi and found a bird very similar to yours. On page 154 is a "Faded ash red barred" OC that really does look alot like your bird. I won't say it looks exactly like it but close. Your bird actually looks less red and almost khaki in the bars. The photos in this book are from the 1960's and my point is that if they had the faded gene in ASR's that long ago, they are probably still a common gene in the breed.

I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that this bird is a combination of a couple of modifiers, whether it is faded, ice, or opal, nothing would surprise me. Someone has a very large group of pictures of opals but I can't remember where I saw them. It may be Franks's site, I don't think it's slobberknocker. I just remember being rather amazed at the variations of colors that opal can create. Many of them looked very much like other modifiers and you probably would not have guessed that they were opal. I do not remember now if they were recessive or dominant opal or both. I'll try to find those pictures and let you know where they are.

Bill


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## bluecheck

If it's anyone's site, it's likely Ron Huntley's. The reason I'd say almost 100% that it's NOT faded is because if you pair two Faded birds together, you're soon going to get homozygous Faded cocks and hemizygous Faded hens (also know as autosexing birds since they're different colors) and that's not what's happening. Right now, I'd go about 98% with Gibson and Hollander's idea of this being a case of ash-red mimic recessive opal. The 2% is my wiggle-room.


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## BCBrian

BlueCheck,

But then, if recessive opal on red is responsible - and the blues and reds are frequently crossed, without regard to colour - shouldn't such lofts have a lot of recessive blue opals cropping up? That's what's stopping my own endorsement of that theory. Hardly anyone (if anyone) up here seems to be getting recessive blue opals.


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## jbangelfish

*I think it must have been Huntley's site*



bluecheck said:


> If it's anyone's site, it's likely Ron Huntley's. The reason I'd say almost 100% that it's NOT faded is because if you pair two Faded birds together, you're soon going to get homozygous Faded cocks and hemizygous Faded hens (also know as autosexing birds since they're different colors) and that's not what's happening. Right now, I'd go about 98% with Gibson and Hollander's idea of this being a case of ash-red mimic recessive opal. The 2% is my wiggle-room.


I checked yours and didn't find what I was looking for. As to the faded bird, I just noticed how similar it was but again, not similar enough to jump to any conclusions.

So what are the genetics of the ash red mimic recessive opal? Are you saying that these are blue pigeons that look ash red, like homozygous indigo?

Meantime, I'll check Ron Huntley's site. Thanks,

Bill


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## bluecheck

_So what are the genetics of the ash red mimic recessive opal? Are you saying that these are blue pigeons that look ash red, like homozygous indigo? _ Bill

YES! That's exactly what I'm saying. The ash-red mimic of recessive opal LOOKS like ash-red. This is almost always the reason that we have when we get stories of blue parents breeding an "ash-red" youngsters (assuming the parents were enclosed and not topped by another cock). 

It's a fairly unique mutation of recessive opal - and apparently a different form of it so that when it's crossed to blues we don't get the "normal" recessive opal that we associate with them.


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## BCBrian

A "different form" of recessive opal - that doesn't manifest itself in blues - but does in red - as Colonel Klink would say "Very Interesting!"

But then, shouldn't it be called something other than "recessive opal" - a name that has already been taken?

Are you suggesting it's an allele to the recessive opal gene we already know - the one that manifests itself in blue-based birds?


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## bluecheck

No Brian, you misunderstand me. I wasn't clear enough. It's not that the recessive opal only show on ash-red; it's actually a "Blue" bird we're looking at, but this form of recessive opal makes it LOOK like an ash-red bird. That's why it's called the ash-red mimic form of recessive opal. So if this is what these actually are, then they could be both ash-reds (with the recessive opal on top of that) looking ash-red; or they could be "blues" with the recessive opal on top of that and still looking like "ash-red".

The definitive test would be to have a pair of blues out of these birds paired together. If you rear even one youngster that appears ash-red, then we're talking about recessive opal ash-red mimic.


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## Alan Bliven

Is there any further thoughts on this topic? I have some of these birds now and the lightening factor in them is on blues as well.


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