# Help



## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

I have 4 pigeons and a female laid eggs but the male refuses to sit on them. What should I do?? They are already hatched. The male stays close but doesn't care for them.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi there and welcome...

Is your female staying on the nest? if so, don't worry too much. Pigeons don't always follow the common routines that we know for whatever reason. Keep an eye on them and if the hen is sitting on the nest, don't worry too much yet. You may have to help out though if the cock bird in fact is not tending to his young.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

what do you mean when you say that I may have to help it ????


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i'm not too sure how to use this website too well. How do I see my replys??


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi, yes you're using it correctly and getting my responses. What I mean is.......Watch your birds. If the female stays on the nest and looks after the young, that is ok. Watch and make sure though that things seem 'Normal" If you suspect that your hen birds on the nest is doing all the work and getting no help, you may have to help her. And by helping her I mean with feedings of the babies. Normally, a female pigeon under optimum conditions could feasibly take care of her young by herself, she might not be willing to do that however with lack of help from her mate and could abandon her nest. If that happens, you might have to take care of the young yourself through hand feedings. But this is just a guess at this time. It's much too early to know for sure. Like I said, keep an eye on the birds and make sure that the cock is not totally abandoning his responsibilities. Sometimes it might seem like there is a problem, but if you watch long enough, there isn't.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Also, normally after eggs are just hatched, the female looks after the young mostly. The males duties are subjected to just brooding the young in the beginning. Females are generally on the nest from about 4pm - 10am. The males will tend to the nest from about 10am -4pm. Feedings are mostly done by the female in the first few days.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

what exactly do i feed them??


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

wait and see.....PLEASE.....listen to what i've said. You stated that the eggs have just hatched. Watch the birds and observe what they're doing and when. You'll know if there is a problem with the cock not helping soon enough. If there is a bird tending to the nest now they are fine. If there comes a time where you see one bird off the nest for more than 10 -15 minutes.....let us know and then get the babies to a warm spot immediately.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

BTW...how old are these babies?


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

but what do i feed the babies if it become that the mother doesnt care for them???


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

they just hatched today


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Ok, I will say this one more time watch your birds. IF your female is sitting and tending to the nest, you don't need to worry. Watch your cock bird and see if he goes on the nest at the approximate times.....from anywhere between 7am/10am on throughout the day. This is HIS time on the nest. The female does the late afternoon and midnight shifts on the nest. There are several baby bird formulas on the market if needed. I think you are over reacting though at this point. PLease try to remain calm.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

another question i just got a new pigeon the other ones seem to bit it so do i just let it be or do i do something about it??


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Brad has given you some very good advice. Most pigeons are excellent parents and will take good care of their babies. Just leave them alone, watch from a distance and let them be. They know what to do and can feed their babies a lot better than we can! You don't need to worry unless, as Brad said, you see that the parents have left the chicks alone for more than 15 minutes. At this age, one parent or the other should be on the nest at all times. Starting around a week to ten days the parents will leave the nest for longer periods.

About the new pigeon, it's not uncommon to have squabbling when you introduce new pigeons to an established flock. If you have sufficient space and perches, they should settle down in time. Is the new bird in with the pair with chicks? Because it's better not to introduce new pigeons when you have babies--risk of disease and so forth. How big is your enclosure? The NPA suggest 2 square feet of floor space per bird.


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## bklowe (Oct 21, 2003)

To determine if the hatchling is being fed properly look a the hatchling's crop. If it is being fed the crop will be " swollen " at times and " empty " at other times.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

how do u tell the difference beetween a boy pigeon and a girl???


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

also i need some help with pairing up pigeons i tried pairing up 2 pigeons but they just refeuse what do i do?? i want them to mate


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

what do i use to incubate eggs when the parent refuse to sit on them?? i no i have alot of questions but i really need your help


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

PLEASE some one write something to me please i am in a really bad situation!!!!!!!


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Jonathan,

It's okay to ask alot of questions, but not all of your questions are emergencies demanding immediate answers. I am guessing that your bad situation may be that the parents are not sitting on the eggs. I have found a thread which discusses incubation and directions for making an emergency homemade incubator. Just click on the link:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5977

I also know of a thread that is very long, but filled with a ton of useful information to advise you what to do if the eggs hatch and the parents refuse to care for it. I will add in that link to this message as soon as I locate it.

Okay, here is the link in ref to hand raising baby birds:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8070

These seem to be the most important concerns right now. Hope this is the information that you needed. The other questions will be answered by others soon, I am sure.

Good luck,

Linda


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

thank you so much but how do u tell the difference beetween a boy and a girl??


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Jonathan,

You cannot tell the difference when they are babies. Even when they become adults, it is not always easy to determine sex...the only thing that is certain, is if it lays an egg, it is a female..lol. I have found a thread which discusses signs to look for in determining whether a bird is male or female:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5146

Linda


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

thank you so much for all your help


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i once had a baby pigeon and something bad happend to it an animal got to it now i no i have raccoons around my house but was it a raccoon or do u no something else that would do that


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

does any one no whaat could have happend if any one does please tell me ?? he was bitten in the neck i feel soooooo bad i miss him sooooooo much!!!! ??


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i had a baby pigeon a he was over 1 mont but he still wasnt fully feathere and he was about ------------------------------------------------------------------ that big is that normal??


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Johnathan,

Not knowing where you are located makes it a bit difficult to guess what types of predators may be in your area .. but coyotes, foxes, dogs, cats, rats, hawks, could all be possibilities.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

well this pigeon was in its loft on the ground so whatever it was had to have had claws !! could a WEASEL DO THAT?? another question when do baby pigeons start to eat on their own??


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jonathand said:


> well this pigeon was in its loft on the ground so whatever it was had to have had claws !! could a WEASEL DO THAT?? another question when do baby pigeons start to eat on their own??


Yes, a weasel could do that, but what you have to do is predator proof your pigeon enclosure(s) by having either a solid floor or 1/2" hardware cloth buried under it so nothing can dig in from the outside. You also have to be sure that nothing can reach in to your enclosure and grab a bird, or get in from a large enough opening, and that the "roof" is secure. 1/2 " hardware cloth will solve most, if not all, of these potential problems. It's a bit pricey in the beginning, but you will be thankful you predator proofed your pigeon enclosures in the end.

I'd still like to know at least generally where you are .. it makes a big difference in what types of predators might be getting your birds.

Baby pigeons start to eat at about the three week mark on average .. some sooner .. some later .. most are definitely self feeding by four weeks .. and I've had some that started at slightly more than two weeks of age.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

well Terry i live in toronto so what animals are there here ?? OH ya i also had a rabbit and it got killed the same way with a bite in the neck


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

what r round worms i have just heard of them can they kill a pigeon?? how do i no if mine have that and if they were to how would i get rid of them?? and what do they look like so than i no what i am looking for??


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i need big help my baby pigeons arnt being cared for what do i do they are in the nest but are very cold what do i do ?? am i suppose to care for them if i am how do i PPPPLLLLLLLLLEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEE!!! there isnt much time!!!


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Jonathan,

Again, here is the link to a thread that covers hand rearing baby birds. Please click on it and read the whole thing. I think you will find many of the answers you need contained in that thread if you read it.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8070

I am sure others will be along to help out as well....try to stay calm.

Linda


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

thanks i read it do u have pigeons because i saw that u take care of babys to but what do i feed them with i use to have one and i use to feed them with my hand is that ok or should i use something else??


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

please one is practicaly dead should i take them in??


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

if i take the babys in i dont no how to take care of them is there another way i can keep them warm but still being with the mother??


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

*If * you have to feed a baby pigeon - and it is not always easy - the thread Lin said about contains a bit on using a syringe and ballon.

A syringe 10 or, better, 20ml - cut the end off just above the tip.
A piece of ordinary party balloon, or a piece of cloth, whatever you have - cut big enough to cover the open end of the syringe.
Fill the syringe with Kaytee Exact baby bird formula or something similar from the petstore.
Fix the balloon or cloth over the end of the syringe with an elastic band.
Cut 2 slits in the cloth, in cross shape.
Guide baby's beak into slit, when he should hopefully start to slurp up the formula.
Make sure his entire face doesn't go in and clog his nostrils.
Disengage beak for a second of two to give him air, then do it again, til he refuses any more.
Wipe face thoroughly clean with damp cloth.
He should be fed anough so his crop is full but still a little squishy - not hard.

He will need to be on a heat pad, or a well covered hot water bottle, in a box with some soft material like towelling in it, to keep him warm

John


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm not sure I understand what is going on here. ARE the parents feeding them? Exactly how old are they? If the parents are still feeding them and brooding them at least part of the day, then I don't think you should take the chicks away. From one of your previous posts, it sounded as though the chicks might be sick. Chicks afflicted with canker (trichomoniasis) or paratyphoid/salmonellosis fail to thrive even though their parents try to feed them. Without seeing them, it's hard to tell what's wrong, but those are the most common diseases affecting chicks.

The link Lin posted gives detailed instructions on feeding chicks. You can buy Kaytee Exact hand-feeding formula at large pet stores. I know Pet Club and Petco both carry it. 

For future reference, it would be a good idea to treat your parent birds with medication to prevent canker, coccidiosis and worms at least four weeks prior to breeding them. If they may be carrying paratyphoid they should be treated for that as well. You can buy medications for all those things at Foy's Pigeon Supply or Global Pigeon Supply.

Foy’s Pigeon Supply: http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/

Global Pigeon Supply: http://globalpigeon.com/


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

than u so much i have them with me now . when i went to see them they were so cold they werent even moving so i think it is good i took them thanks again i will go to petco to get the formula i will keep you posted..


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i try to feed the babys but they wont take it what do i do??


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

How are you trying to feed them Jonathan? Syringe, eyedropper, feeding tube, or the method suggested by John. What John described is probably the safest method when you don't have experience in feeding baby pigeons. 

Make sure you are keeping the babies very warm .. on a heating pad set on low, under a low wattage bulb, or next to a hot water bottle.

Are their crops completely empty at this point?

Please read the thread that Linda posted for you if you haven't yet done so.

Keep us posted.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

what if they just eat it without anything is that safe?? what i mean is i put it in a bowl and they eat it because that is the way i am feeding them now . Also i am feeding them oatmeal for now just until i buy baby pigeon food is that ok?? and they are doing fine now they are asleep and i am keeping them warn. one of them keeps on twisting its neck is that ok?? i am sorry for all the questions!! i am just curius and worried..


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jonthan,

If, in fact, the babies are eating what you are providing on their own, then all should be well. You still need to check to see that their crops are full .. if they aren't, your babies will starve to death and become dehydrated in a fairly short period of time. Starvation + dehydration = death .. don't let it happen!

The neck twisting may or may not be OK .. hopefully just the movements of a contented and sleeping baby. If that isn't the case, then possibily something serious going on.

Please, please read the threads to which you have been referred and go get the proper baby formula for these little ones. 

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

well they are eating but today i came home and one of the babys crops looks like it is filled with air i touched it and it is air is that normal??


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

also how often do i feed them they are a week now??


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

*pigeons need help*

oh ya and when ever i feed it it twists its neck i am getting really worried !!!!!!!! if i lose them i will be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sad someone if u no anything please help me! i am very calm but i need to no y they r twisting their neck filling their crop with air whenever i feed them?? am i doing something wrong because i am trying everything i can but i dont no what is going on the thing i really want to no is why their crop fills with air when i feed them if any one nos plese help me!!!!!!!! i will tell you all the thing i am doing i have them in a bos with towels inside and water bottles. SOOOO i no that they are warm thae way i feed then is i put my two fingers open on their beak than they open it is that ok because that is the only way i can make them eat. Oh ya i am feeding them oatmel. Is it ik when the are done eating they gasp for air espeacially the one that twists his neck?? oh ya and why whenever i put them in the light they try to hide PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jonathan


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

They shouldn't be getting a bunch of air in their crops. I can't tell from your post quite what you are doing. Are you using an eyedropper to put the food in their beaks? At a week they are much too young to feed themselves. They need to be fed about once every 3-4 hours, or when their crops feel empty. Did you read the link Lin Hansen posted for you yesterday? Because it contains detailed information on feeding chicks from start to finish. It answers all these questions you are asking. If you haven't read all of it, please look again. There are 3 or 4 pages--read all of them. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8070


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jonathan,

It's way past time for you to calm down and =START ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED= by members here. Panic gets none of us anywhere, and at least that's for sure for you who is trying to raise the babies. Please, read what's been posted to you .. answer the questions clearly, and if you still haven't read the thread(s) suggested, you had better do so for the good of your baby birds.

No, in a word .. the crops should not be filled with air .. if that's the case, then you are not feeding them correctly. Do be sure, though, that it's air and not the fluid of the formula you are hopefully feeding correctly.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

what if it is the fluid of the formula than what happens??? but isnt there supose to be fluid in there because people said it should be smooshy an so on so isnt it ok if it is like that?? i aM FEEDING THEM WITH A SPOON they dont eat with anything else. if i put them back with the mother will she take them back??


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Jonathan,

You would probably have more success feeding the babies if you use the baby bird formula (which you can get at a pet store) and the "balloon and syringe" method:

Syringe and balloon feeding! 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Izzy,

I don't know whether your searches on this site have turned up photos of the syringe + balloon method of feeding. Karen introduced me to this and the photo below is of her pigeon Maddy, who was a "battered squab" but is quite grown up now!

The method is to cut the tip off a 10ml (or 20 ml for older babies) syringe and tape a piece of party balloon over it instead. You fill the syringe with formula, cut a slit in the ballon and guide their beaks to the slit. They slurp the formula up with such enthusiasm that you have to ensure they don't overeat!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

A picture of a baby eating this way is on page four of the "2 hatchlings" thread. I do not know if the mother would take over feeding again if they have been away from her for long. Hopefully, other members will be along to answer that question.

Good luck,
Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If the babies are getting a large enough quantity of formula using the spoon, it should be fine. My guess would be, however, that they might not be getting enough with this method. 

Their crops should be nice and plump when full of formula, and the crops should gradually empty out over a period of time .. depends on the age/size of the babies and how much formula was taken. When the crops are empty or nearly so, then feed again. If the crops are not emptying in a reasonable period of time (probably 1-3 hours), then we've got a problem.

Please keep us posted.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

nothing went good the baby pigeons have passed on i tried everything i was able to do but nothing worked. everybody thank u for all yor help i appreciated it. i feel really bad now.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jonathan,

I'm very sorry it didn't work out and that you were unable to save the birds. Next time, if there is a next time, PLEASE do some more research and reading of what members have told you about hand raising and how to hand rear young squabs. It's not something everyone can do and should not be taken lightly, it's a BIG responsibility. It's always best to let the parents rear their own young and trying to hand raise them should only be a last resort. Again, I'm sorry for what has happened.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm very sorry the little ones didn't make it Jonathan. It is often very difficult to hand raise any type of bird even if you have lots of experience.

Terry


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Jonathan,

So sorry to hear about the babies....thank you for trying.

Linda


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*My Condolences*

 It was a very noble thing what you did trying to save the babies.I am sure you did your best and oviously cared for them.Sometimes things do not go the direction we want them to go in.You did your best, and will be better prepared should this opportunity arise agan.The key is to remain calm next time.Please do not give up.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

thank you guys for the comments it really means alot to me i think i did a good job at taking care of them but not good enough


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

another question she will probably lay eggs again but i no that the father wont care again can i do anything to make him care also i no that the pigeons that are laying the eggs are old can that be the problem why the male wont care for them


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm sorry you weren't able to save the babies. It's really hard to hand-raise them from such a young age. By your comments about the father, I gather he didn't help take care of the chicks? Did he fail to take his turn on the nest or feed them? If he's really that bad, I suggest you take her next eggs away and replace them with fake eggs so you won't go through this again. If you really want to have chicks from this pair, get a reliable pair of rollers or homers to foster the eggs. 

Not caring properly for chicks sounds more like a young, inexperienced cock than an old one. Although most pigeons are very good parents even when they are quite young.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

*need help*

well there father did have babies befor and he took care of them but now he like, doesnt want anything to do with them what can this mean...... well thank you all for helping me out it was nice of you, and i will write to you again if anymore babies are born. ohhhh yaaaa i have a new pigeon now it is a girl. Well i put her in the loft with the other ones and i wanted her to mate or get along with a male with no mate. now i put her in and they faught i no this was going to happen but not to this extend they should be getting along by now because i now only have 4 pigeons so i wanted them to get along is there anything i can do to make them like eachother... i put them in a small cage with eachother but it just wasnt working they were fighting what can i do........ please help i want more baby pigeons and i dont want them from pigeons that wont do their job i want them from pigeons that will be good parents. And i no for a fact that these 2 would be good because they are always in a nest bowl moving around the straw and building a nest for no reason, so i no they wold make a good couple and good parents..


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

helpp please


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

does anyone no the answers to my questions


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Jonathan,

Which questions?

Can you make birds like each other? Can you tell in advance if a couple are going to be good parents? Were those the questions?

Linda


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

yes linda those were the questions do u think u can answer them or does anyone think they can answer them for me


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

You can't make them like each other. But usually if you put a cock and hen alone together for a few days they'll begin to like each other. You can't tell in advance if they'll be good parents, but most pigeons are naturally good parents. Some breeds are trickier to raise than others. It's best to start out with something easy, like rollers or homers.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i did try putting them in a cage alone with eachother but they were attacking eachother is that ok


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That depends. Some squabbling is normal; constant fighting, or actually hurting each other, is not. First off, are you sure you have a cock and a hen? 

For pairing, I've had the best results by putting the cock and hen in a dog kennel in the garage with some light, but not a lot. Give them food, water and a nest bowl. The cock will sit in the nest bowl and coo to the hen. Usually this results in them pairing up in a day or two. 

It could also be that they are fighting because you have them in too small a space. Even existing pairs will quarrel if stressed by being placed in a too-small cage or carrier. Try something bigger. But first, be sure you actually have a male and a female. If two boys, someone could get hurt!


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

ya i no they are a cock and a hen because i got them from a breeder and he has a pink band for the girls and a blue for the boys..


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i tried putting them together again, but i dont want to leave them un attended because i am scared they might hurt eachother what should i do...


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

does anyone no


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Jonathan,

You could try putting them in separate cages but close to one another for a longer period of time. If that doesn't work, then I would suspect that the breeder made a mistake and that you have two cocks.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

well i dont think they are two males because the male coos and the female doesnt but if they are male and female will they ever get along or will they never pair up with eachother?? and if i just leave them in the loft with eachother will they get along sooner or later??
JONATHAN


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Jonathan, As you were asked earlier, is the space large enough for them to co-exist? I agree with Terry that if you keep them separate, but close,would possibly help. Love  and hate  are strange feelings, even with pigeons.Have you tried these things yet?


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

yes i have tried these things but what i am saying is if i leave them in the loft will they get along eventually


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

(1) How big is your loft? (2) How many pigeons do you have? If you leave them alone in the loft they may eventually pair up...or not. I've had opposite sex pigeons that simply didn't like each other and refused to pair up even after months of being "single" together in the loft. 

Last year I gave a pair of rollers to a friend of my husband's. Four or five months later he returned them to me. Much to my surprise, they never paired up for him! She didn't lay a single egg the whole time she was there, although her new owner took good care of them. After they got back, when the hen discovered her former mate had "remarried," she finally gave up and paired off with the cock I'd sent her away with. So it can take a long time.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

well my loft is pretty big, yes there is alot more than 2 feet for 1 pigeon but if i do put them in a cage together how long will it take for them to pair up??


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Since they fought the last time you put them in a small cage together, I don't think that's a good idea. Just leave them in the loft and see what develops. At least they aren't fighting in the loft, right?


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

hi i am soo exited i got 2 new pigeons they are so nice well i got them and they already started to mate but they didnt pick a nest box yet is that a problem?? and also when they are in a nest box another pigeon will bother them and they will leave what can i do?? or do they no what to do and they will no how to pick their box??


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jonathan, 

Yes, just let them be now and get accustomed to your arrangement. They will pick a nest box when they are ready and will most likely have to fight for one depending upon your setup. Congratulations on your new pair though


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

thank u brad now i need some advice for the bands you put on the pigeons can i make any with any thing or do i need to buy them??


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jonathan, 

I have zero experience with making bands out of things around the home. It's best if you invest in the various bands you can purchase through the different pigeon houses or clubs. What kinds of bands are you wanting to put on your birds? I'm assuming you would wish to put organization bands on ....club bands. The other bands are up to you. Coloured bands to denote sex, family lineages etc.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

please help one of my pigeons is red all on his eye he is swolen there too. it isnt very bad but ive noticed it gets worse everyday please if anyone knows what it is please tell me and tell me how i can get rid of it. it is hard to explain but i no he is getting swolen around his eye and red and he isnt as active as he was befor any advice will help.
jonathan


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Does the eye appear to have been injured? Sometimes when they quarrel, a pij gets pecked in the eye. Does he have nasal discharge as well? Is there discharge from the eye, a so-called "one-eye cold"? The pigeon supply houses sell a product called NFZ puffer. It's a little bottle of powder containing antibiotics and you can use it on their eyes and on surface wounds. They sell other products for eye infections as well. In the meantime, you could try washing the eye gently with an eye-washing product from the drug store. You can find it in the eye care section of the store. 

Also, you should isolate this pigeon from your others.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

alot of these words u r saying i dont quite understand what is nasal discharge and also can the pigeon die from this if it is like lets say a disease in the eye?? and i remember seeing this in one of the threads but i dont remember what it was called. can enyone help me??


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

stores are closed today is there something that i can mix with water to put on his eye for now just until iu can buy the stuff and no nothing is coming out of the nose but now i notice the other eye is getting it


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## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

*Nasal*

Nasal Discharge refers to the beak(nasal area) and if there is anything coming out of it. I hope that clears things up somewhat.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

please some one help


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

ok un o how my pigeon has this what does this come from what i mean like where does it come from like the air or something but that is just an example?? and what can i use to get rid of it for now just until i et the stuff??


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## suecee (Mar 24, 2005)

*eggs?*

The pigeon I have been trying to get info on has laid an egg. I don't see a male bird around helping her. Coiuld anyone tell me what to do with this pigeon??


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jonathand said:


> ok un o how my pigeon has this what does this come from what i mean like where does it come from like the air or something but that is just an example?? and what can i use to get rid of it for now just until i et the stuff??


http://www.jedds.com/SearchKeywordResults.asp

Hi Jonathan,
This is a link for one eye cold.
You say that now both eyes have the problem. Are there any other symptoms that you can describe? How are the stools?
I would get some meds express mailed.
fp


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

well the other pigeons seem to be ok but he just got it. and also how do they get this disease like where does it come from?? well another symptom is that he isnt as active as he was befor he had this thing in the eye. i have heard of camomile which is a type of tea which u put it in boiled water and then you let it cool off and than wash the infection this works for people so wouldent it work for pigeons??


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Jonathan,

I don't know about chamomile's antisceptic/anti-bacterial properties. I use a rue/fennel rinse for myself and greatly dilute it for my cats. It is very effective. But there are not usually other symptoms involved.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*this what you're talking about?*

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=33&SubCategoryID=869&ProductID=3398


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Pigeons have doughnut-shaped sinuses around their eyes, and these sinuses can become infected and inflamed. According to my pigeon books, most sinus infections in pigeons are caused by chlamydia or mycoplasma. The infection can be treated with Baytril or doxycycline. Ideally, you should treat the eye with drops and also give the pigeon oral antibiotics. 

I suggest you call one of the pigeon supply houses, Foy's or Global ASAP, describe the bird's symptoms and ask them what meds they recommend. Then, as Feral Pigeon said, have them _express mail_ the medications to you! Don't wait. This will only get worse. Here are the links to Foy's and Global. 

Foy’s Pigeon Supply: http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/

Global Pigeon Supply: http://globalpigeon.com/


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

well i dont no because i went to go check the bird in the morning and it looks like he is doing better i think i will try the camomile and if that doesnt work i will try the medication thanks for your help.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jonathand said:


> ok un o how my pigeon has this what does this come from what i mean like where does it come from like the air or something but that is just an example?? and what can i use to get rid of it for now just until i et the stuff??


Hi Jonathan,

Here's a link explaining some of your concerns:

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/articles/psittacosis_chlamydia.htm

You might want to treat orally in conjunction with eye drops and loft management ie cleanliness/comprehensive disinfecting practices.

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Jonathan, you asked in your initial post how your pigeon got sick. Just because your others don't look sick doesn't mean they aren't sick! Pigeons are prey animals and as such they are very good at hiding illness. You have posted numerous times with health concerns about your birds. It sounds to me as though all is not well in your loft. When pigeons keep getting sick it is because there is an underlying problem in the loft. Do you scrape it every day? It is overcrowded? Do you disinifect waterers daily and clean feeders on a regular basis? Are your birds exposed to drafts and damp? All these things are important in keeping a healthy flock. 

If your pigeon is sick with ornithosis, which is caused by chlamydia, it could make _you_ sick too, as the article posted by Feral Pigeon says. The best thing for you to do would be to take the sick bird to a vet and have it tested so you know for certain what you are dealing with. Then you should treat the flock and resolve any underlying problems in your loft. If you can't go to a vet, then call Foy's and ask for advice. They have knowledgable people who have raised pigeons for years. They can answer your questions and point you to the right medications. 

Please don't let this go because the sick bird looks a little better today. I really think you have problems in your flock that need to be addressed ASAP for the sake of your pigeons' health AND your own.


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

what do u mean that i can get sick what can i get from this pigeon if he has that type of illness??


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jonathand said:


> what do u mean that i can get sick what can i get from this pigeon if he has that type of illness??


Jonathan .. BirdMom gave you very good advice .. you =need= to find out what is going on with your birds and take steps to correct it. If it turns out to be chlamydia, this is a reportable disease in most countries of the world because people can get it and become very sick with pneumonia like symptoms and can actually die from it .. another name for it is psittacosis .. this isn't just something that parrots get and transmit.

Jonathan .. you =really= need to quit messing around with this and find out what is making your birds sick. Asking us here on the board isn't going to do it. You need to take a sick bird to a qualified vet and find out what is wrong. You are endangering all your birds as well as yourself and possibly others depending upon what the problem is.

It's time for you to quit with the home remedies and get this taken care of. Sorry to be harsh, but this is serious for you and your birds.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

*meannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn*

tanks to u people that worried me about the pigeons i have nomore i let them all go i dont have any more u people made me worry do much i was scared of risking my life and other people including the other animals i have thanks for worring me sooooooooo much thank u oh ya sorry to be harsh, my life with pigeons is over thanks to u people and i am never comming on this site any more u worried me that much to make me not want them that is sad by the way thank u to the pple who did help. never comming here AGAINNNNNNNNN !!!!!!! yes i am mad u ruined everything!!!!!!! i wont give out names that who was being so mean that made get rid of them ok i will give one name TAWALTY thank u !!!!! and yes u were harsh  noone better give me attitude now or i will give it back!!!!!!! .........


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Johnathan, 

I'm very sorry that you felt overwhelmed by all the information you received here in Pigeon Talk by our members. I'm sorry that you felt so worried about things. BELIEVE me, they really did have you and your birds' best interests at heart. Everyone was trying to give you the assistance you seemed to need in your loft situation. Letting your birds go was the wrong decision and you should have thought this out more clearly. You feel bad, the birds are gone and you feel this board and it's members caused this. Please, if you ever acquire birds in the future, look after them, seek professional assistance from an avian vet and be more responsible for your actions.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

*Jonathand and his personal issues*



jonathand said:


> tanks to u people that worried me about the pigeons i have nomore i let them all go i dont have any more u people made me worry do much i was scared of risking my life and other people including the other animals i have thanks for worring me sooooooooo much thank u oh ya sorry to be harsh, my life with pigeons is over thanks to u people and i am never comming on this site any more u worried me that much to make me not want them that is sad by the way thank u to the pple who did help. never comming here AGAINNNNNNNNN !!!!!!! yes i am mad u ruined everything!!!!!!! i wont give out names that who was being so mean that made get rid of them ok i will give one name TAWALTY thank u !!!!! and yes u were harsh  noone better give me attitude now or i will give it back!!!!!!! .........


Johnathan,

I am going to tell you that for one you are totally irresponsible, you can get mad all you want, people tried to help you and you were not doing so well at following the advise people were giving, I think that you were yanking peoples chains. If you were not you would have been more responsible, you would have learned about the birds you took into your care, and you would not have just doomed them, there is a chance these birds will return, should they I highly suggest that you do act responsible and place them with someone that can give them the care, think about what you have just done, you have just turned birds loose that are sick that you allowed to get sick, birds that will either or die, they will infect other pigeons, and all of this because you did not bother to get additional information and research what you were getting into... Wake UP and take Responsibility for your own actions, care for or get assistance for the birds should they return.  

Ellen


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

jonathand said:


> tanks to u people that worried me about the pigeons i have nomore i let them all go i dont have any more u people made me worry do much i was scared of risking my life and other people including the other animals i have thanks for worring me sooooooooo much thank u oh ya sorry to be harsh, my life with pigeons is over thanks to u people and i am never comming on this site any more u worried me that much to make me not want them that is sad by the way thank u to the pple who did help. never comming here AGAINNNNNNNNN !!!!!!! yes i am mad u ruined everything!!!!!!! i wont give out names that who was being so mean that made get rid of them ok i will give one name TAWALTY thank u !!!!! and yes u were harsh  noone better give me attitude now or i will give it back!!!!!!! .........


Jonathan,

Everything Brad said to you is right...it is good advice, I hope you'll listen to him.

I cannot help but add a few comments of my own in response to your post.

Jonathan, you first started this thread on February 11th. For nearly two solid months now, many members have responded to your many questions trying to provide you with help and good advice. Unfortunately, in some cases the time comes when advice over the internet is not going to do the trick and a person needs to seek out professional help from a veterinarian.

TAWhatley is about as far from "mean" as a person can possibly be. She was merely trying to get you to "step up to the plate" and take some responsiblity for the illness that was occurring among your pigeons. Unfortunately, your idea of taking responsibility was to abandon your possibly sick birds.

It is completely out of line for you to blame Terry, or anyone else here for that matter, for you getting rid of your pigeons. YOU are the one who made that irresponsible decision.

I'm very sorry it all turned out this way...it's a shame. Perhaps if you had made the decision to seek out help and advice from an avian vet, he or she could have calmed your fears and helped you get your birds healthy.

Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jonathand said:


> never comming here AGAINNNNNNNNN !!!!!!! yes i am mad u ruined everything!!!!!!! i wont give out names that who was being so mean that made get rid of them ok i will give one name TAWALTY thank u !!!!! and yes u were harsh  noone better give me attitude now or i will give it back!!!!!!! .........


Jonathan,

I'm sorry you feel so strongly that I am the mean person who =made= you get rid of your birds. I think if you will go back and review your posts and the responses that you got, you will see that you pretty much ignored the very sound advice being offered to you and either did nothing to help your birds or decided to try some type of unconventional cure. Homeopathic treatments can and do help with certain illnesses and injuries, but you have to know what you are doing in order for the treatment(s) to be effective and to not cause harm to your birds. 

I'm also offering you a piece of advice about "anyone giving you attitude or you will give it back" .. don't even go there.

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

ok i am sorry i am just so mad. the birds wernt sick i got them checked out but when i found out what type of sicknesses they can get i got worried so i let them go they wernt sick all they had was an eye infection which i treated but then i let them go i didnt mean to get mad but it is just, that i really liked them again i am soooo sorry  well i guess i wont need to stay on this site anymore i have nomore pigeons  oh ya 1 more thing i am really responsible i have lots of animals and they are ok pigeons i have had befor so ellen dont say i am not responsible because i think i am and people no i am i can take care of any animal including PIGEONS so please if u dont have anything good to say to me dont say anything  thx sorry to tell u like that but that was mean what u said

ps: the pigeons still come to me they still are around 

jonathand


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Jonathan,

Now you are saying you had them checked at a vet, they were not sick, they had an eye infection (that is an illness) and you still let them go, there is no way they could have had enough of treatment to of cured, eye infections are usually a residual effect of a sinus infection or respiratory infection,  the scenerio's that was offered to you are the worst extreme that could happen, taken proper care of and using proper caring, cleaning, washing techniques you would have never had to worry, you jumped the gun. There are thousands of people that have, show, compete, care for pigeons and in the numbers there are very few cases of any health issues, it is only those that choose to not care for their birds that need to worry. If these were homers you need to notify the prior owner they are coming home and what your history was with these birds, if these are fancy breeds they will still be in your area they will not travel far, if they had eggs they are probably going to be knocking at their door wanting back in, I will hope that you retrieve these birds and turn them over to a responsible person to care for.

Ellen


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i had brang them a while ago and the people there said i am lucky i brang them because it could have gotten alot worse they treated them and i got them back then i started treating them that is when i saw improvments. then i let them go because people told me pigeons can get all sorts of diseases so i let them go exept 1 that i am still treating and when treated i will let her go to again i am sorry the reason why i let them go because i was scared what is something else had happened to them i wiould be in this situation again and what is it was worse but i did let them go healthy and i only had 6 pigeons stop saying i am not responsible cause i am responsible!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jonathand said:


> well i guess i wont need to stay on this site anymore i have nomore pigeons  oh ya 1 more thing i am really responsible i have lots of animals and they are ok pigeons i have had befor so ellen dont say i am not responsible because i think i am and people no i am i can take care of any animal including PIGEONS so please if u dont have anything good to say to me dont say anything  thx sorry to tell u like that but that was mean what u said
> 
> ps: the pigeons still come to me they still are around
> 
> jonathand


So, Jonathan .. are you staying or are you going? You need to make up your mind and do whatever you feel is right. If you decide to stay, then take heed .. I won't put up with much more of your whining and excuses. If your pigeons are indeed coming back to you, then please gather them up and get them to someone who can care for them as they should be cared for. Nobody expects you or anyone else to put your personal health in jeopardy, but we do expect you to know your facts and not "shoot from the hip" like you did by releasing your birds.

I'm =not= going to let you continue to make statements like "if u don't have anything good to say to me dont say anything" .. what sense does that make? If you ask for advice and that advice happens to not suit you or if you feel it is not a good thing to say then why should anyone bother posting to you anymore?

And, let's forget the "that was mean what u said" stuff .. enough already!

You've been a bit mean yourself, and your anger (which should be totally directed to your own self) is no excuse. 

Terry


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

jonathand said:


> i am really responsible i have lots of animals and they are ok pigeons i have had befor so ellen dont say i am not responsible because i think i am and people no i am i can take care of any animal including PIGEONS so please if u dont have anything good to say to me dont say anything  thx sorry to tell u like that but that was mean what u said
> 
> ps: the pigeons still come to me they still are around
> 
> jonathand


Johnathan,

Ok, Lets just say you are responsible like you are trying to say, if you really are I want you to prove to me that you are responsible, I expect you to contain each of those pigeons 6 that you released as well as the one still in your care as you stated, then notify us when you have the pigeons contained, we will then contact a rehabber in your area as close as we can and we will expect you to transport and turn these pigeons over to a rehaber and we will follow-up on their welfare, I want you to prove to me exactly how responsible you are, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt right now to prove me wrong this is a one time opportunity to prove you are a person that is as good as their word, so prove it....  

Ellen


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

good luck Jonathan and hope you dont just quit like the rest ... i did quit for about 2 months then those birds are so special...its been 3 years now or 2 and half ! 




Elvis


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jonathand said:


> i had brang them a while ago and the people there said i am lucky i brang them because it could have gotten alot worse they treated them and i got them back then i started treating them that is when i saw improvments. then i let them go because people told me pigeons can get all sorts of diseases so i let them go exept 1 that i am still treating and when treated i will let her go to again i am sorry the reason why i let them go because i was scared what is something else had happened to them i wiould be in this situation again and what is it was worse but i did let them go healthy and i only had 6 pigeons stop saying i am not responsible cause i am responsible!


Jonathand,

I am heartsickened to hear about your poor birds. I know that you really love them and that they love you back; look to you for direction, and depend on you for all of the attention ( caring, food, shelter, crisis intervention ) that all 
of our pets do. Be they dogs, cats, birds, etc. 

I posted that link for you, not to frighten you, but so that you might understand that certain illnesses or symptoms might require more attention and diligence than others. The truth be told, without good hygiene, it is possible for you to get parasites from a dog or cat. And, let's not talk about sushi or studies that were done in Siberia about the value of freezing eggs ( none ) which is a technique that some restaurants use to "protect" the customer.

We can't teach pets to be dependent on us and then throw them out with no warning because we realize that we may have to 
change our own behavior in the way that we deal with a problem.

If anything, PigeonTalk provides not just a place for you to ask questions, but 
a place to research what your concerns are. Have you ever really tried to 
look up answers for yourself here? I've recently ( not to mention sick or 
injured ferals ) been very concerned and upset about health issues for two 
pigeons that I have adopted. Because respiratory issues were involved, I did 
bring them to an avian vet. Ya, it's costly, and at the same time it is also
educational and reassuring. My test for ornithosis came back negative. You 
have to know how good that feels. They are testing positive for coccidiosis
and worms. Major drag as they've been treated for that already elsewhere
by a knowledgable person. Now I have to figure out WHY.......??? Then I in-
tend to fix it. Because these birds are so very sweet, in their own world with
their own issues. They are innocent, like little kids....it's not their fault. I 
have to step up to the plate and accept the extra chores it will entail for me 
to help them. I know that it will be fixed eventually, but it will take time, 
my effort, and a desire to understand what the mechanism is so that I can 
fix it. 

And its a learning experience for me, as the avian vet showed me how 
to administer medications in the crop and had me do it there while he ob-
served........what a gem in the midst of all this! I'm also learning about 
medications. Should I complain??!?

Don't let me forget to mention that in the process of getting to know 
these two that there are feelings involved. 

Jonathand, you have feelings involved here too. Feeling hurt by comments 
made to you that you didn't understand where they were coming from. 
People here care about you and you care about PT. More importantly, you 
care abour your birds. Jonathand, please think about your love for these birds and not your anger right now.......do the right thing. Don't punish the birds for being in the middle of your feelings. Please choose to either take the responsibility on of caring comprehensibly for them or as others have said,
get them to a rehabber immediately.

respectfully,

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you FP! Nuff said and well done!

Terry


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

i said sorry already but i dont want to getinvolved with pigeons no more i have a new thing that i am working on i mean i have other animals


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

relofts said:


> Johnathan,
> I am giving you the benefit of the doubt right now to prove me wrong this is a one time opportunity to prove you are a person that is as good as their word, so prove it....
> Ellen


Johnathan, 

As I stated above I gave you the opportunity to prove that you are a man of your word, you gave those pigeons a promise to care for them when you brought them home you have violated that trust between man and animal, You are not worthy of those birds. I also believe an adult would not of reacted as you did so I am going to assume that you are a child that has not given their correct age.



jonathand said:


> i said sorry already but i dont want to getinvolved with pigeons no more i have a new thing that i am working on i mean i have other animals


Sorry doesn't make those pigeons safe, it is not hard since you said those pigeons are still coming back for you to contain them and you could turn them over to someone that will care for them, you have had them this long and haven't contracted any dreadfull disease yet, so what would be the since of not taking them to a safe home, as I stated before you are violating their faith they put in you. Oh and by the way heaven for bid that you get any other animals, did you know that you can get tape worms from cats and dogs, you can get ring worms, you can also get rabies if they happen to get it, you can get staphylococcosis from them if they have it or are carriers, did you know that any animal including humans are carriers of diseases, lets see do you know if you kiss a girl you could get mononucleosis, you can get Herpes, as well as a multitude of other diseases. I suggest you place yourself in a bubble if you cant see fit to assist the pigeons that you had to turn loose to be doomed, you don't deserve any animals in my opinion until you have given restitution to these pigeons that you have cause harm to, now with that said I am done with any further discussion that involves your adolescent behavior.

Ellen


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Way to go Ellen


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*Thanks*

Hi Jonathand,

Thanks for checking in w/PT today and giving us an update as to your feelings 
on this situation. It seems as though you might be very busy w/other projects
and animals right now. This is your choice, however, wouldn't it be better 
for you and the birds (if you are ready to move on) to collect your birds and 
place them in the care of someone who would tend to their needs as you would 
have should you have decided to keep them??

You live in Toronto, is that not correct?

Thanks,

fp


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## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

hi ellen by naming all these diseases that other animals can get what are you trying to do make me not want them or some thing and i am the age i put and if u no what is good for u dont talk to me any more


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

*Jonathand and his personal issues*



jonathand said:


> hi ellen by naming all these diseases that other animals can get what are you trying to do make me not want them or some thing and i am the age i put and if u no what is good for u dont talk to me any more


Jonathand, 

Don't make idle threats it will not be tolerated I guarentee you. Now just so you know why I advised you on the diseases is so that another animal doesn't come into your care for you just to later put it out on the streets when you decide it may give you and ingrown hair or something. Now I think you need to move on, you do not need to have animals until you have learned to be responsible for them.

Ellen


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jonathan,

Please do not make threatening comments to any members of this board PERIOD! I'm within about a millimeter of banning you from the board, so shape up or I =will= ship you out.

I am also closing this thread. If you want to "talk" to me about my decision, you can send me a private post or start a new thread, but do be careful .. if you start a new thread and the first post is full of negative attitude, then that's it for you.

Terry


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## bklowe (Oct 21, 2003)

My opinion is that Jonathon is an antagonist .... someone who joined this forum just to upset the members and likely has no animals or birds and never did. Likely a pigeon hater. JMO


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