# Help, understanding white



## CMH1211 (Mar 10, 2013)

I will give an example and mybe someone can give a quick explination since im not gettimg it. what does the white gene do to other colors?

Lets say I breed a classic almond to a pure white pigeon what should expect offspring wise?

I got a white cock bird who was barless and bred him to a black hen and got what I think is called a ash red bar. The dad had some of the same color red on his tail


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Questions like this are not as simple as mating an ash red barred bird to a blue barred bird. 

The problem with white is it "hides" the actual color and pattern of the bird. Also there are many different types or ways to make white birds......could be a recessive white or combination of pied genes or who knows? There could be almost anything hidden by the white.........red, blue, black (spread blue), rec red, etc. etc. A classic almond also carries a mix of color....usually blue T-pattern with some kite and a single copy of recessive red. These can all mix differently with whatever your white is hiding. Likewise almond expresses differently depending on what is going on (underneath the almond). The only thing we can say for sure in your example is that the almond gene should be passed on to about half the offspring. If the almond is the mother than all sons will be almond and daughters non-almond.


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## CMH1211 (Mar 10, 2013)

Thanks so much for ur responce even some information helps. Color breeding is difficult lol. I always get something that im not expecting.


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## CMH1211 (Mar 10, 2013)

Does it work opposite also? If the cock is an almond the daughters will be almond?

Reason I ask is because I have a rec red hen and I bred her with a blue bar and the squab came out blue bar. What sex would u say the squab is?

Sorry for the questions. Ive readhundreds of things on genetics but its all hard to understand.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

If an almond male mated to a non-almond female does not work the same way.......instead about half the babies will be almond (both male and female). Almond is not a color really, but it sort of bleaches out the color of hte bird while allowing "breaks" of color to come through....more with age. 

Rec red, being a recessive gene also hides the true color of the bird. So the rec red bird could actually be a blue bar or a red check but you can't see the blue bar or red check....just the rec red. Also, you won't be able to tell the gender of the squabs that way. 

An ash red hen and a blue male is a sex-linked mating.....all blue babies will be hens and red babies will be males. 

A dilute male mated to a non-dilute hen will work the same way (e.g. a yellow male with a red hen)....all the dilute babies will be hens and regular babies will be males.


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## CMH1211 (Mar 10, 2013)

Got it... I really wish I knew more about this. I guess its back to reading some more. Thanks for your help.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

You can not tell whether a white bird is barless or not, unless you do some testmatings.
Any bars would be hidden.


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## CMH1211 (Mar 10, 2013)

Is there somewhere where u can read "A+B=almond" or "A+B=grizzle"? I dont fly my birds I hvae an indoor florida room custom made addition just for them. I would like to know how to breed for certain colors and patterns. since I have to look at them all day I would like the rare color and patterns. Right now I pay for them but I would prefer to create them by selective pairing.

I have another thread in this same section on my birds color id. I needed help with tht but no one ever answered.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Almond is dominant and sex-linked. In birds females have one sex chromosome and males two sex-chromosomes (opposite of mammals). The almond gene is carried on this. Males with two copies of almond are very white and rarely survive....that is why they recommend only pairing almonds with nonalmonds. A good mate for an almond is a kite bird (blue t-pattern plus bronze) carrying one copy of rec red. This will give more classic almonds. However, the almond gene will show up on other colors and patterns it just looks different. If you can see the two birds in my avatar the one on the left is black and the one one on the right is black plus almond. 

Grizzle is dominant. You need at least on parent to be grizzled for offspring to be grizzled. It is not sex-linked. If the bird has two copies of the grizzle they will be MUCH whiter than one copy. On blue birds this makes "stork marked". Grizzle shows up a little bit different on different colors and patterns.


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## CMH1211 (Mar 10, 2013)

Man u have no idea how much that helps... 

If its not to much trouble can u look at my post in this same section that says "my pouters.color id on some". It would be great if u can help me out whenever u can. Doesnt have to be today. Thanks.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

CMH1211 said:


> Is there somewhere where u can read "A+B=almond" or "A+B=grizzle"? I dont fly my birds I hvae an indoor florida room custom made addition just for them. I would like to know how to breed for certain colors and patterns. since I have to look at them all day I would like the rare color and patterns. Right now I pay for them but I would prefer to create them by selective pairing.
> 
> I have another thread in this same section on my birds color id. I needed help with tht but no one ever answered.


A book that I have found to be very helpful in learning color genetics is Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons by Axel Sell. Your library will likely be able to get it for you on interlibrary loan since it's quite expensive to purchase.


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