# Slow-Crop youngster, what-to-do?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Few days ago, a gal brought me a youngster, a squeaker, stubby tail, plump, nice looking (the Pigeon I mean, not the gal, although the gal was good looking too )...anyway, someone had found it wandering in the street and brought it to her. She had fed it via syringe, a few meals of K-T...

Anyway, the youngster is still a 'nuzzler' wishing to be fed...so...I fed him a light supper on the first evening just to be sociable, and he soon after threw up.

His poos have been brown-gravy and Water, and sometimes some white liquidy stuff. And, I noticed his Crop was not emptying and still has not emptied from when he was first brought two days ago. 

I have been doing gentle Crop Massages, and it has not changed anything. He has learned to drink from a Cup now, after a few rounds of holloww-nipple, so Water is easy for him. I do not want to feed him untill his crop is empty. 

He spends his time standing quietly or tentatively pecking sometimes if the other Birds in here are pecking, but, mostly he just stands or walks around in the 'Bird feeding area' or gets a little wound up and nuzzles or is squeaking. 

Earlier he was doing some wing excercises which was nice to see. He does not seem to be feeling too poorly, but is a little subdued. He was quite enthused (usual Wing flapping and assertive nuzzleings ) about me feeding him and would be again if I offered to do so.

Crop is mushy and quite soft, but not right...it should have emptied long before this...and it is at least half full. In two days I have fed him maybe, one Tablespoon of food, mostly on the night I got him, and a tiny bit the next day.

Any ideas for me to try?

Bromilliad or Papaya enzymes maybe? - 'Digel'? - Vinegar in his Water? 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

You might want to try emptying the crop manually. I don't know how to do it, so I can't explain it. Though, others have done it and they should be along soon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Can you smell his breath? Is there a sour smell? They can get candidiasis (candida albicans) in their crop from that and it causes gas buildup. One of the remedies is Nystatin. 

I've heard of this but don't have practical experience with it--it can happen easily if overfed on Kaytee and the other powdered foods. It's less likely to happen after feeding normal seed mixes because the candida doesn't grow on dry seeds very well.

What I know is that you don't fool around with this very long before they can start going downhill real fast, so search on the keywords above.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well,

The manual method involves making the bird throw up. It's dangerous because the bird can aspirate and die. If others have a technique that's safe, more power to 'em.

I just remembered that sometimes with candida buildup in the crop, gas builds up--that may be the squishy-ness that you're feeling. You've got the stuff to tube feed, right? If you run the tube down there alone or pull the plunger out of the syringe before you insert it, you might "vent" off the gas. That might help.

You might consider getting some pedialyte instead of water as he might start running out of reserves pretty quick.

ACV is more of a preventative than a cure.

Pidgey


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,

Here are two previous threads that discuss slow crop and how to remedy the situation:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8595

and

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5736

Hope this helps

Linda


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

These are Katie's (katiedidittwo2) instructions on how to treat slow crop, sour crop, crop stasis, copied from another thread:

_You can give him an ounce of salt water. One teasp of salt in the water.
This will make him throw up. If he does not bring it up you will need to
message the crop and leaning the pigeon in a forward position with the head
down, squeaze the crop from the bottom and push towards the throat. Stopping
everytime you bring some up so the pigeon does not asperate. After you have
emptied the crop, give him an ounce of baking soda water. a 1/2 teaspoon of
baking soda for the squab in an ounce of water should be good. If the crop
fills up with air, give baking soda again. This will neutrilize the crop.
Give water only for 2 days. On the 3rd day give the puppy chow soaked in
water. I myself feed squabs Kaytee Exact Handfeeding Formula and syringe
feed. Feed 2 times a day. That is all any of them should be fed. The crops
should be empty or nearly empty before you give another feeding."_


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ohhhh...thank you!


Would Ipecac be of use?

The Catheters (for feeding directly into a Crop, which ) I have are likely too narrow for much to be able to get drawn 'out'...but I s;pose whats in tere is old 'K-T powder, so, that should draw out allright if it is...hmmmm...I will try that ( tomorrow morning sometime ).

I did put him on the " VITAKING 5 in 1" stuff, senseing something was not right, before I had noticed the slow Crop. I wonder if this would be of beinifit to possible souring...?

What about Vinegar Water? It sure would change the PH, and would possible Candida bite the dust from the higher acidity do you think?

I will see about getting some Nystatin tomorrow...regardless...

I am running on two hours sleep from last night and am pooped...! lol...time for bed...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Better listen to Linda and Cynthia here, I think. Also, vinegar water is acidic whereas Cynthia is saying to finish up with baking soda, which neutralizes acidity. Sounds like one of the problems with the slow crop and souring is an overly acidic buildup.

Given the time span of two full days of only water down a squab as post-treatment, it's likely that you may only have one chance to get it right. From the stuff that I've read about crop slowdown/stasis, that sounds about right.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I have also seen putting a bird on the Kaytee along with stressful situations, gets them all "nutted up" after a diet of pigeon seed. I rather use ground up seed, or hand feed them seed, when they are already stressed, then put them back on Kaytee when they are weaned.

Definitely this one needs to emptied out completely, after which....

If this baby is around the weaning stage I would make a gruel of pigeon seed mix (small seeds only), probiotics and enzymes and purified water. 

Treesa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all me buds...!


Oh! Happy Crop!

Little one is all squeaks and nuzzles and "Feed me!" and their Crop finally emptied during the night...

So...

Whew!

Now on to feeding with Seeds-in-Soup...and or Seeds and or pecking-lessons and soon...


...sigh...

Thanks Pidgey for alerting me to my not having really read some of the preceeding posts well...I was way overtired and my brain was not working well...

Best wishes!

Phil

And a happy squablet whose Crop is emptying nicely now...

( I had some appointments so I had to leave early and got back to find the good news...otherwise, I had a perscription lined up if necessary for some 'Nystatin' liquid suspension at a close bye Pharmacy if I'd needed it...)


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Phil,
A slow crop does not automatically mean that there is an illness. A bird that has been dehydrated and/or starved is not going to digest food with rapidity. The nutrients aren't there for normal digestion. That's why for a few days, one never knows what is going on with a bird in this condition . Hydrate and feed soft easily digested food like Purina Puppy Chow or Kaytee liquid baby food or a combination of both. It can take up to a week and a half for the crop to fully go on line. 
You don't really need a prescription for Nystatin. There is a very good medication for yeast at Jedds called Medistatin. It's a dry, powdered form of Nystatin. Mix it in water and syringe it down twice a day. It's doubtful at this time that your bird needs any medication like this.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Fred,

Global has a product called Glostatin made for them by DAC. They don' t have 
a liquid dose for pigeons, just powdered on food. Do you know what the dose per amount of water would be for that?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

*slow crop youngster - what to do*

We have had a lot of problems with pigeons with slow crops - especially babies and fledglings. We've done the following:

Give Propulsid as directed by the vet. This medicine increases crop emptying - helps sour stomach and throwing up. Since the vet makes this it needs refrigeration and should be shaken well before using. Give 20 minutes before feeding. Throw away if expiration date has expired. Works great.

We have gotten in several young birds that have been fed navy beans (or something like that) and their crops were so impacted it was difficult to get them out. They just sit in the crop because the babies can't digest them. We usually massage their crops, give plenty of liquids and hope they throw them up. Some have not survived but many have.

We started several years ago giving the young ones very watered down Exact McCaw Hand Feeding formula. This formula does not seem to swell up as much as the regular hand feeding formula and babies seem to thrive on it. We use a 10 cc syringe which gives us better control over how much goes in the crop, squirting about 2-3 cc. at a time, giving the bird a chance to swallow. We initially give 10-15 cc. per feeding, about every two hours for at least the first two days after we get them in. We are not that concerned at that point in filling the crop - they get adjusted to the Exact and it gives us a chance to see if their crop is emptying as it should. We then begin increasing the amount of Exact and the ccs. We closely monitor their weight.

One of the things we use is a Catac Teat (we call them cat nipples) that are ordered from Catac House, Newnham Street, Bedford, England. We apply a small amount of super glue to the base of the syringe and slide the nipple onto it, and then snip off the bottom of the nipple. It's important to glue them on - we didn't do this at first and squirted the nipple into the bird's crop - fortunately a rehabber massaged it up into its throat and pulled it out - the bird's chest feathers were a little worse for wear but the bird survived.

Another thing - we also use Benebac as directed for the young ones - mixed in with their Exact for a couple of weeks. It seems to help. We too have used Nystatin with good results. 

I would caution people in trying to make a bird regurgitate. This can be deadly if you don't know what you are doing. Our vet has done this for us a couple of times and warns us from the first that the bird could aspirate. Not only that it puts a lot of stress on the bird, and it doesn't always help. .


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

"Global has a product called Glostatin made for them by DAC. They don' t have 
a liquid dose for pigeons, just powdered on food. Do you know what the dose per amount of water would be for that?"

I never used this so I wouldn't want to venture a guess. Why not call them up?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fred128, lady tarheel...


Thanks for the mentions!

I will see about having the K-T "Macaw" formula on hand for future use...

The 'Propulsid' I an not familiar with but I will look into it...!


I did get some very nice, fragrant 'Fennel Tea' and have been giving that, and, useing it to mix the food with.

This is an odd little Bird in some ways, charming, gentle, a little more subdued and different than the usual feral squeakers I am used to. So, it is getting over something I imagine...


The gal I got it from works in a petstore...she got it from seeing some man carrying a box near where she lives, where he walked to a Palm Tree, at night, and tossed the squeaker up into the Palm Fronds wherefrom it promtly fell, having failed to get a grip on them, and, the man walked away. She asked him what he was doing, and he said something like "Putting it back"...and he turned and went on his way.

She fed the little one for several days on some very fine-grain version of the KT powder...and showed me some in a bag...it looked like light brown cake flower almost, or something.

So...I dunno...


Looks to be about 20-22 days old, very quiet overall, composed, calm, enthused about eating, but in a more gentle way than I am used to them doing...

His/her Crop did empty but has an odd way about it even so -

It does not seem to contain any gas which I can smell, but it does not flatten out when empty like many tend to do. It does not tend to look 'empty' for some reason, so...gas???

He/she did not smell right initially ( I tend to smell their backs! ) but now is smelling a little more like they should.

He/she is making some little decent enough looking little poops now anyway...

Usually, even when much younger than this, they are interested and happy in eating Seeds in Soup, or even Seeds-in-Water-Soup, from the Nipple and so on, and yet this one only tends to drink the liquid and not to eat many of the Seeds in the liquid.

Usually, feral orphan Babys I have had brought to me, often they are STUFFED with full crops even FULL of Seeds! People sometimes find such youngsters being worried by a Cat or Dog and grab them...who knows where their Nest had been, but, anyway, ones much younger than this usually, in Nature, get stuffed with Seeds...

Little Crow-Baby had a HUGE Crop full of Seeds when I got him, and he had not been fed since early that morning, some twelve hours earlier, and oweing to his trauma of the Crows attacking him, his crop did not empty for several days. But, the testure of the hydrated Seeds was easily palpable. and no mysteries when his crop is empty, it "looks" empty...

Where, this one, their Crop looks sort of full all the time, but if I feel it I can tell it seems full of air...or, after a meal, I can sort of feel the soup in there.


Some of me is wondering if he was sort of someone's 'pet' or one they were trying to raise, and only raised on KT or something? - and then, for some reason, a man very clumsily went to 'return'...and then some severalk days on KT from the petshop gal, and maybe, these are the first Seeds it has encountered in it's feeding...

This one has a Beak which I find very hard to open!

I was wanting to do 'Seed-Pops' and the lower and upper Beak fit so perfectly and are of so identical a contour-form, there is almost no way to get any grip anywhere on it to open it!

...oh well...

He/she is exploreing and acting normal in every way overall, comes into the office and looks up at me from the floor, where I put them then onto my shoulder and so on, or put them back onto the area I like them to be.

Anyway, I have been trying to get them to eat very very small Seeds in their LaFaber's powder Soup...and have had only a little success.

Patience...

Fennel Tea...

Nystatin or the likes in reserve in case there are smells of fermentation or signs of wilting..?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Hi Fred,

Global has a product called Glostatin made for them by DAC. They don' t have 
a liquid dose for pigeons, just powdered on food. Do you know what the dose per amount of water would be for that?

Actually, I do have a suggestion. Mix some in a small amount of tepid water. Drop pieces of Purina Puppy Chow into the solution and feed one piece at a time. The amount of the dose is still going to be problematic.


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Phil,
Here is the name of an avian vet in your area:

Cheyenne West Animal Hospital
Christine Kolmstetter
8630 West Cheyenne Avenue
Las Vegas, nv 89129
Phone: 702-395-1800 
Fax: 7023951883 


At this point, you have added two new symptoms. The first is a level of listlessness and the second is a possible gas buildup in the crop from fermentation. This could very well be a yeast infection. 

The recommended dose for Nystatin is * .5 ml per 100 grams of weight  * but at this point, I would take the bird to an avian vet. We can only go so far on the net in trying to help diagnose a problem and I think you would feel much more secure by having a vet doing some tests like a gram stain to find out what is going on. The reason I'm suggesting this is that fermentation in the crop can also come from bacterial infection as well so which way to go in the way of medicating is vital or you may wind up giving the wrong medication for whatever is going on.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

fred128 said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> Global has a product called Glostatin made for them by DAC. They don' t have
> a liquid dose for pigeons, just powdered on food. Do you know what the dose per amount of water would be for that?
> ...


Actually, when dosing in water, I like to do crop administering along w/water
dose to make sure they get enuf, and frequently use Kaytee to mix med and crop feed. I hadn't thought about using the kibble soak method w/that, that's a good one. DAC is in Holland, there is a number on their website that I'll try, other than that, I'd have to see if it is same strength as Medpet's product, or if Global knows what water dose w/be.


Thanks Fred


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Fred,


"Kolmstetter" is not willing to permit a Pigeon of any kind on her premisis, even if it a 'pet'. She is profoundly unfriendly to Pigeons.

Your advice sounds good...and I will see what I can do.

I do not know any 'Bird' vets here as such, but one I did hear of is out of town at the moment and I will go make his acquaintance when he gats back after the 30th.

For now, likely the best I can do, is have one non-Bird Vet I do know, call in scrip to a pharmacy for some 'Nystatin' and I can go pick it up and try it.

Little one is more active today, has been preening Crow-baby and exploring and walking around a lot, in fact, they have not stayed put at all so far today. They and Crow-baby were both perched on my bare feet a moment ago, pecking at my Toes or nuzzleing their Beaks in-between them...

So, this is good...less 'quiet' and subdued now.

Crop is still inflated softly to some extent, but not to where one would think it is noticible now, so the problem appears to be persisting mildly anyway, if less all the time. Overnight poops were small and snake-like brown-green snake with some white, but well formed, and had some water to them, which makes sense since they have not had a great deal to eat and have had plenty to drink.

I will try the yellow pages again to see if there might be someone in the way of a Bird Vet whom I can go to tomorrow for an opinion or some lab stuff.

Thanks Fred!


I will stay on it...!

(Majorly edited from a long catharsis about how unhappy I have been with these various 'Vets'...)

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> "Kolmstetter" is not willing to permit a Pigeon of any kind on her premisis, even if it a 'pet'. She is profoundly unfriendly to Pigeons.
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


How sad is that?  
Thanks for the heads up Phil.

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy,


Sigh...

But little one is doing nicely it seems!

Has a good appetite, is passing-digesting food decently...and comes running-flapping-squeaking if I call "Ooooo!Oooooo!" I have not wanted to feed thenm so much as I might otherwise, since I am not confident their digestion-crop-tummy or what are as uncompromised as they should be, but, I am feeding 'enough' for them not to loose weight anyway...thereabouts...for now...

Between times preens or explores or hangs out with Crow Baby.

Their 'squeaks' have become of normal volume now ( instead of rather 'quiet' like previous) and they are much more assertive and generally active today. Standing 'taller' somehow even...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...

(S)he seems better-yet today even...

Crop looks normal at-a-glance...laying easy and not looking like it has anything 'in' it...appetite very good...not much for poops yet since my feedings have been conservative. Bird is active, in good 'squeaking' voice and good Wing-Action when feeding...not so subdued now.

Being Monday now, I can get the 'Nystatin'...

Any opinions on whether I should go ahead and get some and adminnister it? - Or?

I should have this on hand anyway...just that right now the dough is way 'thin' for the time being...Lol...

Let me know your thoughts though...if you think I should do it, I will...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...

Quite the vivid, energetic, flapping, happy-go-lucky Squeaker-bug now...learning ( thanks to the examples of Crow-Baby, who pecks with no real results, but does peck a lot!)...learning to peck at Seeds and getting them, too!

I am still feeding 'Soups' of course, and their appetite is very good. 

Comes flapping and squeaking when I call the "Ooooo!" of Pigeon "C'mon and have some chow!" calls...

All seems very good now, and a delightful 'classic', handsome young Pigeon in every way.

Thanks again all for your kind advices and reccomendations on my worries about this one!

Love to all...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Update...

Every inch a beautiful latter adolescent Pigeon, sleek and pretty and getting those little Feather shoots comeing in around the low part of it's forehead where it meets the soon to be wattle's...a happy outgoing and self posessed Bird, sociable and polite and kind to the Babys.

Thanks again all for your help!

If memory serve...what I did do were gentle, frequent Crop massages, Fennel Tea made kinda strong maybe, plain and tepid for them to Drink, or as the liquid for it's tepid 'Soup' Nipple-feeds...

They roost in hight places at night, are an able indoor flier, and soon, I will likely begin their forays to be amid the Wild Flock outside...for some late afternoon grazings.

As I am still the Water Bringer, they will fly to me when I call them, or, somethimes they fly over and ask me with that 'look' if I would get some water for them.

Best wishes all...


Phil
Las Vegas


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