# Half sided pied and tailmark?



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have two questions.

1. Is tailmark (solid white bird, colored tail) dominant or recessive? Or a complex combination of pied genes to get the rest of the body white? I have one hen who is all white other than one colored tail feather. I think it would be neat to establish tailmark in homers. Although I think in my case, it was a coincidence of piedbald rather than genetically tailmarked. But still, it is a start.

2. I have a couple birds who are what I call half-sided pieds. One of them moreso than the other. I have one hen who is almost all white. The only color on her is on one wing - the other wing is solid white. Otherwise, her body is all white other than one colored tail feather. So I guess you could sorta say half saddle (mismarked saddle, but still very close)  
I also have a young bird who is just a typical pied bird. However, when I was loading birds for a training toss, I happened to notice his underside is white only on one side. It is literally split straight down the keel. Very cool. Could be mistaken for a different bird depending on which way he is facing. Is this genetic (perhaps related to the situation of the one colored wing, one white wing bird), or just a coincidence? Are the half white, half colored birds in general just coincidences, or genetic?

Here is a picture of the young bird with half of his underside colored:









I will get a picture of the hens later. They are kind of wild and I don't feel like disturbing them right now, LOL.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't have an answer, but I would think it was complex pied genes. When I was young I had a prolific pair of garden fantails. The hen was almost solid black (one or two white feathers on rump), the cock was blue pied and grizzled. They produced a lot of babies......a couple pure whites, many mostly white with a couple blue or black feathers, some pieds in blue or black (at least two were "lopsided" like your bird), a tailmark and a bodymark


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Thats cool, you'll have to raise more of them next year.
Dave


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

*Genes* that can revert parts of an all white bird/animal back to color in an orderly fashion *do not exist *i.m.o. => complex of pied genes
In dogs you have "ticked", giving spots in white areas. Think dalmatian.
In goats you have a similar phenomenon called "moonspots".
Splash or dom.white in chickens can give colored spots, but mostly random.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Pied genes don't make a white bird colored, it makes a colored bird white. So I'm not sure what you meant by your post.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> *Genes* that can revert parts of an all white bird/animal back to color in an orderly fashion *do not exist *i.m.o. => complex of pied genes
> In dogs you have "ticked", giving spots in white areas. Think dalmatian.
> In goats you have a similar phenomenon called "moonspots".
> Splash or dom.white in chickens can give colored spots, but mostly random.





MaryOfExeter said:


> Pied genes don't make a white bird colored, it makes a colored bird white. So I'm not sure what you meant by your post.


Hi Becky, 

Henk is referring to the genetics of other animals. In dogs for instance there are genes that cause ticking (flecking / spots) on a white coat. These genes revert to the original colour, over a pure white background (Dalmatians are born pure white and develop spots as they age), similar to the reversion of almonds to their ground colour as they get older. He also correctly states that there are no such genes known for pigeons.

I assume he must have understood your question about tail mark to mean that you were asking about putting a black tail back on a recessive white bird, which as he states is impossible with the known genetics of pigeons.

I used to see tail-mark homers here in SA. Sadly I lost contact with most of the older folk when I went to university. Now, I cannot find a tail-mark anywhere. I think that tail-mark seemed to be recessive, since I remember mating my tail-mark hen to a blue bar gave me only blue bar squabs. I never got to doing a back-cross to her. I lost her when trying to home her to the new loft. (This was more than 15 years ago, back then I thought that you only had to have a pair breed once or twice, and then they would stay at the new loft easily)


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ah. Well yes, I realize you can't put a colored tail on a recessive white bird. You can't do anything to recessive white. I just wasn't sure what gene(s) are needed to turn the rest of the bird white.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

my one male is all white except the tips of his tail which are black a good 1" or so, no band just black, what would he be considered?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I have a halfsider too! Found out this morning.
It is a cross between black magpie male and ashred capucin with baldhead markings (head,flights,belly and tail are white).
One wing is white like the magpie's and one wing is just white flights like the capucin.
He is ashred, so he is het for ashred/blue and het for whatever makes a white shield in magpie.

Questions comes to mind:
Are halfsiders always het for the pied genes?
Are halfsiders always males?
Is there any chromosome disabling in pigeons like the second X chromosome in mammals?
Anything on mozaiks on the web...


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*White can be caused in the embryo and in this case it is not genetic.QUINN explanes it in his book"An Introduction to Pigeon Science" on page 104,this is what he has to say "Pigment cells develope in great numbers in the neural crest of the pigeon embryo. These cells have the power of movement..The pecular melanin-producing cells migrate in all ditections from neural crest.As if water draining off a ducks back,the cells move in a downward direction enveloping the embryo.Generaly,the cells take up residence in different densities related to the distance traveled.Once established, they divide and saturate a definite area with melanocytes (pigment-forming cells).In turn,the feathers through a network of follicles incorporate the pigment into developing feathers through a network of fine tubes." He goes on to say" The migration of pigment cells is clearly a timed process. It must take place within a specific time phase of embryonic growth.If migration is slowed for some reason within this time phase,certain areas will not have resident cells and white will result." Quinn on page 105 states that "Pattern white is a gene -produced form,which acts in a rather distinct manner in matings.Several of these comditions may be produced by one or more genes.They differ from Piebald forms,in that the areas of white are relatively constant.Pattern whites appears in Turbits,Swallows, Shields and other breeds." Gibson years later broke these down into ten groups. *GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

horseart4u said:


> my one male is all white except the tips of his tail which are black a good 1" or so, no band just black, what would he be considered?


Sounds like a stork mark  Which is homozygous/pure blue (or black) grizzle.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*BECKY there is an all white breed with coloded tails, it is the German owl. The Germans have bred a number of subvarieties one of which is tail marked the (German Colored Tail Owl.) Levi in his book ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PIGEON BREEDS, he talks of it on PAGE317, but shows no picture.* GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, German Owls are pretty  Indian Fantails are also tailmarked.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Back in the 80s, when I subscribed to the American Pigeon Journal, some folks were trying to create a breed I believe they called "Flying Blacktails" or maybe just "blacktails". All white birds with black tails (obviously). I have not heard of them during my second life stage of pigeon keeping, so I assume they are no longer around.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

george simon said:


> *BECKY there is an all white breed with coloded tails, it is the German owl. The Germans have bred a number of subvarieties one of which is tail marked the (German Colored Tail Owl.) Levi in his book ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PIGEON BREEDS, he talks of it on PAGE317, but shows no picture.* GEORGE


For George

http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_6/NWMQVWIKAUUBIMBEGJS

http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15r_9_jucatori_zburatori_2/25406539


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> I have a halfsider too! Found out this morning.
> It is a cross between black magpie male and ashred capucin with baldhead markings (head,flights,belly and tail are white).
> One wing is white like the magpie's and one wing is just white flights like the capucin.
> He is ashred, so he is het for ashred/blue and het for whatever makes a white shield in magpie.
> ...


For Henk

For each skin area, if the pied markers are different, left side and right side could be totally different. 

http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/10_Jucatori_de_Galati_2009/ZGVZWELUGOFSUKAETBW
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/10_Jucatori_de_Galati_2009/POWHEQSUZFXZZXNFINT

Are halfsiders always het for the pied genes? _I think yes._
Are halfsiders always males? _I think no._
Is there any chromosome disabling in pigeons like the second X chromosome in mammals? _Hmmmmmm. I dont know_


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Dina, you produced a lot of (pied) pigeons. 
Can you say anything about the chance that this occurs?
I mean, say you have a het whitewing. Is it 50% chance for the left wing to be white and 50% chance for the right wing to be white, thus 50%*50%=25% for both wings to be white (or not white):
25% both wings white
25% both wings not white (like expected from a recessive pied marking)
25% left wing white, right wing not white
25% right wing white, lef wing not white
Or is it just a small fraction of birds showing the (recessive?) pied markings, 
like when the founder cell that divides into the two halfside founder cells is undergoing a somatic crossing over, which I imagine is rare.

Sorry, you guys, I was planning to ignore this halfsider phenomenon altogether while trying to understand pigeon genetics, but the squab I mentioned made that impossible...


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

dimerro said:


> Is there any chromosome disabling in pigeons like the second X chromosome in mammals? _Hmmmmmm. I dont know_


Ash-red flecks and maybe even almond could be an example of chromosome enabling / disabling, though I am not sure whether there has been scientific studies. I am not sure whether there is an equivalent of a barr body in birds, and this article leads me to believe there is no such mechanism in birds.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here is the hen in question. Like I said, she's pretty wild so her feathers got a little ruffled in the catching process. So ignore that. As you can see she only has one or two feathers right at the base of the tail that can be considered on the left side of her body. The rest of the left side is solid white, and the left side has color on the wing, a couple on the rump, and the 1st tail feather on the left side.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

WOW she is really pretty


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks! And I agree


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

i have a question about 2 of mine one male is all white with about 1" of blk on the tip of his tail feathers and a hen with very few blk feathers on her back and 1 light grey with a reddish brown band tail feather.. what would they be? i know the males father was a t-check saddle the hen was almost an opal saddle but not a complete saddle if you know what i mean.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Any pictures? The male sounds like a stork mark but from what you said the parents were, there was no grizzle available to make a stork. Could be undergrizzle and heavy piebald perhaps.

The hen is either a cockbird and is ash-red carrying blue, or it is a grizzled hen with bronze showing through, or an almond splash, or just a blue/black pied bird with bronze. Definitely need pictures of that one.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

ok this is the funny part the nest mate to the male is a grizzle..here is apic of him and her with a red check pied









and this is the hen, it is a hen because the people i got her from said she has laid and reared young, the pic dosen't show the reddish brown in tail very well


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, the male is definitely a stork. Pied too, as the flights are white. I guess one of the parents was grizzled afterall. There are grizzle saddles.

The hen is also a blue grizzle. The brown you're seeing is just bronzing which is common in blue grizzles. She is either homozygous blue grizzle, or blue grizz with a lot of pied. If you get any non-grizzle kids out of her, then you'll know she's het and heavily pied.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, the male is definitely a stork. Pied too, as the flights are white. I guess one of the parents was grizzled afterall. There are grizzle saddles.
> 
> The hen is also a blue grizzle. The brown you're seeing is just bronzing which is common in blue grizzles. She is either* homozygous blue grizzle, or blue grizz with a lot of pied. If you get any non-grizzle kids out of her, then you'll know she's het and heavily pied*.


ok this might sound stupid but i have no idea what you mean by homozygous or hetero, i have raised pigeons before but never knew any of this stuff, i was a kid it didn't matter then  so can you fill me in a bit on what they mean PLEASE thank you


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

oh and i found out that the "storks" parents young before him was a check pied and an ALLMOST ALL WHITE with a patch of light reddish brown on nape of neck..


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Homozygous means "pure", having two copies of the gene. Heterozygous means they only have one copy. Grizzle is dominant so it only requires one to show, but with two copies, they get much more white on them. In fact, homozygous ash-red grizzles can be solid white and can trick you into thinking they are recessive white....only recessive whites always have bull eyes...whereas ash-red grizzles can have colored eyes 

Also, homozygous grizzles produce all grizzle offspring regardless of what their mate is. Het grizzles only have one grizzle gene to pass on so therefore only half of their kids will be grizzled


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

I produced a spread-undergrizzle, Tailmarked hen from this pairing. They also produce two half-siders with black one black shoulder (like the cock birds shoulder markings but only on one side) entire rest of the birds white including tail. I think the pied markings especially like this cock bird are too complex to be understood. I would like to produce more tailmarks as the one I have is stunning. I don't have pictures of her right now but will try to get some posted if anyone is interested.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Pretty birds! I remember seeing that cockbird on here before. He is almost magpied. Birds with only that little bit on their back colored, the pattern is called "heart". I've had birds with the "heart pattern". All white birds with that bit on their shoulders/back colored - making a heart shape sorta (thus the name). In fact, the hen I posted pictures of is mated to a cockbird like that. Except he has a neat ring of color around his neck. Otherwise, he's basically all white.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here he is. I need a better picture of his back like I did for the hen. He has a little color on his face as you can see. Unlike the hen, he looks the same on both sides.




Oh and I forgot to mention that I have a blue grizzle tail mark coming out from the looks of it. A little squeaker. It's momma is a het blue grizzle that is heavily pied (she's all white except for a colored tail feather and a couple tiny grizzled bronze feathers on her back. Those are so unnoticable that it you'd almost think she wasn't grizzled (except I got her as a young bird and watched a few colored feathers turn to white/almost white as she aged). This is also the same hen that has given me beautiful pied birds that look similar to what you'd find in rollers. Baldheads and a badge. I will gather pictures of her kids (or what few pics I took before I lost some YBs).


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here's the "badge" I was talking about. Figured it was pretty accurate. White head, white flights, and colored patches on each side of the beak. The very first picture I posted in this thread, of the young cock with the white on one side of the keel - he also has the same colored patches. I believe he is unrelated but I will have to check tomorrow. I will also get better/updated pics.









Here she is again. Forgot to mention that the outtermost tail feather on each side is white while the rest of the tail is colored.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Very beautiful birds Becky. I love splashes and the surprises that often come out of the nest. Maybe I should send you my tailmarked hen and your could pair her with your cockbird and we could produce some more next year. Although it would be hard to part with her

Jim


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Henk69 said:


> I have a halfsider too! Found out this morning.
> It is a cross between black magpie male and ashred capucin with baldhead markings (head,flights,belly and tail are white).
> One wing is white like the magpie's and one wing is just white flights like the capucin.
> He is ashred, so he is het for ashred/blue and het for whatever makes a white shield in magpie.


Hi,

I have 2 new siblings to my halfsider. 
Looks like one is a halfsider too (same wing). 
The other has 2 white wings!
In theory the all white wings should behave recessive.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have 2 new siblings to my halfsider.
> Looks like one is a halfsider too (same wing).
> ...


I thought white flights (linked to bald-head) were dominant (or at least partially so).


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Correct. I said "all white wings".


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Or "whitesides"


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Whitesider sounds good. But they don't have white shoulders, just white wings like a magpie.

Let me spill my theory. I think the all-white-wing is allelic to dominant whiteflight. Either 2 doses or 1 dose next to whiteflight would make the wing all white. On its own in one dose it would look like dominant whiteflight.
Another observation: I bred a recessive red magpie from 2 black magpies. Its belly white extends farther towards the breast and looks like it gets white shoulders.


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