# Punk Young Hen following Worming :(



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Never a dull moment... 









This is Nancy, my 7 month old young bird hen. She isn't feeling well, but I'm not sure what's up. 
In the pic, she's wingslapping at the flash, but I don't like her posture otherwise. 
She is unmated, and has not been receptive to any courting attentions from the cockbirds (usually she pecks at them if they approach her). 
I know she's a hen because her mother was ash-red and her father is Velvet. 
She is fairly "tame" and often stands on my back when I bend over tidying up in the coop.

Her mouth and throat look clean, pink, and in good shape, and her crop doesn't appear to be stuck or static. 
She stood on the warmed section of the cage when she first came in (it was chilly outdoors today), but now is sometimes on the cooler part instead. 
She has a cup of water and some pellets (I don't have any small seeds and don't want to give her big ones until I find out what's going on).
She's drunk a little water, and tossed a few pellets around, but I don't think she ate many, if any. I have not given her any meds yet, since I don't know where to start.

Recent history:

Last Wednesday I direct-dosed the flock with Ivermectin, in my ongoing war against roundworms, and she was among the half-dozen or so of my 30-some birds who gagged, retched, and/or vomited about 15-20 minutes after their dose. 
Everybody seemed to "get over" it in a little while, but I didn't feed them until several hours after the dosing, to give them time for their digestion to "settle."

Over the weekend several birds, including Nancy, occasionally for short periods, have been standing up like penguins just after eating, and sometimes doing the "walk like an Egyptian" thing with their necks... and there's been occasional splats of slimy green poop, but until today I didn't catch anyone in the act. 

Here are Nancy's droppings after I brought her into the house...








They were greener when fresher (did not get a photo op immediately) but at least the urates aren't that awful yellow...

What else should I be looking at, or for, and what should I do next? 

Thanks in advance for advice & suggestions!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, not much fecal matter going on there. I guess if she were here I would tube her 7-8cc of Pedialyte a few times (a few hours apart) to get her flushed out, then offer small seeds and pellets and water of course, wait a day, and reassess depending on how what was coming out the back end looked. If I was still unsure, if I were going to start her on a med it would probably be TMS, as it works well in a number of instances, give a few more days and reassess again. Did you see any worms around after the last round of worming from her or anyone else?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nancy has a cup of water & pellets, so I think I'll wait until morning to see how much she has drunk, and what the overnight droppings look like. It's 3am and I'm tired enough that I'm uncoordinated right now. 

Yes, there were some worms... not as few as I had hoped, but not as many as I dreaded to find. Most of the droppings with worms in or near them were in nest boxes belonging to particular pairs; only 1 or 2 worms in droppings out in the middle of the floor. 

I'm not sure exactly where Nancy roosts (she has several "favorite" spots), but none of the "public perch" (i.e. boxes not set up for pairs, windowsills, etc) zones had droppings with worms. 

I'm wondering if there's a "gentler" wormer... when I was trying to save Little Bar, Jerry at Foy's thought Wormout Gel was the most gentle of the items they carry.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, when you get a chance order in some Pyrantel Pamoate, quite gentle with a very large safety margin. I usually reach for it first for younger birds and I have had good results (I used it on one bird in particular who I just felt had a worm issue, but after a dose Ivermectin nothing was produced, two days later I tried the Pyrantel and a good 1/2 dozen large worms were produced).

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



What you describe, and, what I can see of the Urates, are all consistent with Canker/Trichomonal infection in the upoper GI or Crop or Proventriculus.


Post some good close-ups of the poops if you can...so we can get better look, but, so far, looks like 'flat, paint-like' Urates, and, constricted or lessened fecal output anyway.


If it was me, I'd be reaching for the Metronidazole...



Karyn,


Who carries the Pyrantel Pamoate?



Phil
Lv


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pyrantel (strongid) is commonly used by vets for puppies and kittens.
If you have a regular vet that you use, they should be able to give (sell) you some for your birds.
I've been having better luck with it than ivermec, and much safer.
.12 ml per bird OR 1.50 ml per gallon of drinking water


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, here is where I order from for the Pyrantel Pamoate (also Ivermectin, farm section, lots of other items in the farm and fish sections), I also order my Metronidazole from here (last page fish section). 

Not to be argumentative, but LD50 for Ivermectin in mice is 50mg/kg and for Pyrantel Pamoate 5000mg/kg, meaning it takes 1/100 of the same dose that it would take to kill a mouse with Ivermectin as it would Pyrantel. I have been told by a few vets that is very effective and perhaps the safest wormer out there.

http://vetamerica.com/pyrantel-pamoate-suspension-16-oz-1-pint.aspx

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Phil, here is where I order from for the Pyrantel Pamoate (also Ivermectin, farm section, lots of other items in the farm and fish sections), I also order my Metronidazole from here (last page fish section).
> 
> Not to argumentative, but LD50 for Ivermectin in mice is 50mg/kg and for Pyrantel Pamoate 5000mg/kg, meaning it takes 1/100 of the same dose that it would take to kill a mouse with Ivermectin as it would Pyrantel.* I have been told by a few vets that is very effective and perhaps the safest wormer out there.*
> 
> ...


I was told the same thing and am very happy with its results!
In the past, I've had a couple birds have adverse reactions to ivermectin.....temporary paralysis.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, although I use both, I was told you would really have to work at hurting a bird with Pyrantel, but with a number of other de-wormers, even those considered "safe", if people get things wrong they can sicken a bird, or perhaps even worse, if the bird is in a weakened state.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Update: Nancy's overnight droppings...








I can tell from her water cup that she's been drinking a bit, and I guess she ate some too... these are more fibery than slimy. 

I've given her metronidazole as Phil recommended; I noticed that stale "cankerish" odor in the room this morning (gone since I disposed of the soiled PT).

Her standing posture is normal this morning, and she was "lounging" on one wing when I came into the room. She has a cup of water and a small dish of pellets. 
She has never seen pellets before, but I told her they are funny looking tasty little seeds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, perhaps for now, you can pick out the large peas/corn/seeds from the pigeon mix you have and give her some of that, see if that helps with the eating as there is still not much there in the way of droppings, as well as start the Metronidazole. Can you get a weight on her so we can monitor her for the next little while?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nancy weighs 409 grams.
I have given her the regular seed mix without the peas (there's no corn in this mix; I have to get some to mix in for winter).
Should she have anything in her water other than ACV?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

She's of good weight and still looks quite bright, so just a dish of pellets, of seeds and water - with some ACV (make sure she is drinking this, if not, then plain water) and the Metronidazole for now. Let's give it a day or perhaps two and see how things go before adding or changing things. Weight her each day at the same time and record.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Phil, here is where I order from for the Pyrantel Pamoate (also Ivermectin, farm section, lots of other items in the farm and fish sections), I also order my Metronidazole from here (last page fish section).
> 
> Not to be argumentative, but LD50 for Ivermectin in mice is 50mg/kg and for Pyrantel Pamoate 5000mg/kg, meaning it takes 1/100 of the same dose that it would take to kill a mouse with Ivermectin as it would Pyrantel. I have been told by a few vets that is very effective and perhaps the safest wormer out there.


Safe & effective is generally a successful argument... (not to confuse argue with quarrel  )

I see Mediworm tabs by Medpet online... they are Pyrantel Pamoate 20mg, Praziquantel 5mg. 
Good to have/use, or not? Is praziquantel also a safe, or at least forgiving, med?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, why don't you just order the Pyrantel from the link I posted, Vet America, they give very good service and their shipments are always so well packed. There Pyrantel is in a suspension form and it's very easy to dose with. Although you are getting Velvet into the vet, you could always also order a tube of the Terramycin to have around. Although we made up some drops, you never know when you will have use of it in the future.

http://vetamerica.com/terramycin-ointment-3-5g-1-8oz.aspx

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, why don't you just order the Pyrantel from the link I posted, Vet America, they give very good service and their shipments are always so well packed. They Pyrantel is in a suspension form and it's very easy to dose with. Although you are getting Velvet into the vet, you could always also order a tube of the Terramycin to have around. Although we made up some drops, you never know when you will have use of it in the future.
> 
> http://vetamerica.com/terramycin-ointment-3-5g-1-8oz.aspx
> 
> Karyn


Thanks for the recommendation; getting an order together...

I think I will give Nancy some pedialyte via tube presently; she doesn't seem to have eaten or drunk much, though she seems bright & perky enough. 

How much would be a good start-off "serving?" 
I don't want to stuff her too full...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

A basic rule of thumb when tubing water/hydration fluids is that you don't want to give more that 7-8cc at one go. When you trying to get a good amount of fluids into a bird, you would tube 7-8cc, wait an hour then tube the same amount again (checking first to make sure the first amount has moved from the crop), and you can do the same amount again in a few hours if needed. Birds handle and process fluids different than say giving 15-25cc of formula, so instead of trying to give 14-16cc of fluids, or more at one time, it's better for them to be given smaller amounts spaced out.

I wouldn't mind seeing you give Nancy 7cc of Pedialyte every 2-3 hours until she is flushing well, so that over a day you could give her 30-45cc of fluids, as I would like to see her passing more from the back right now.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

She's had her 7cc of pedialyte... put up a small struggle going into the burrito but held pretty still for me to slip the tube in.  I warmed the solution by holding the filled syringe under running hot water until the filled part felt slightly warm to my wrist, so it wouldn't give her a chilly jolt. I explained to her that she needed to drink, and this is how we must do it if she doesn't want to guzzle from the cup...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good, but as you can, see if you are still able to get a good number more of these into her over the next day. Also, I do the same thing, I always slightly warm any fluids before tubing, whether plain fluids, or fluids with meds in it.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yuppers...


Anything to be 'Tubed' should be close to Body Temp...and, lube the Tube well with fresh Olive so it slides in nice.


If using a Catheter section, one can also swish it in Hot Water for a few seconds or more, to make it real soft and Esophagus-Friendly...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nancy's update: 
She's bright & alert, and I've been hearing sounds of pecking after I leave the room. 
I only got a chance to give her 7cc of pedialyte today (this morning), so I figure she must be drinking and eating (I can see that more seeds are gone than I can account for, looking at what she spilled) from the droppings.









At the loft, I also gave metronidazole tabs to 3 other pigeons (all hens...) that have sometimes been standing like penguins. 
If they don't seem somewhat better tomorrow, I will have to figure out how to configure more hospital cages...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, just keep doing what your are doing, but try your best to get a few more goes of the fluids into her tonight. The droppings do look somewhat better, by the way.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I brought the 3 other "penguin standing" hens that I mentioned upthread into the house... they are together in the other section of my big cage sharing the heating pad while I figure out what else to do. 
Left to right: Dolly, Amy, Rosa. Amy's tail feathers are soiled from standing like a penguin. 








They all have the typical trich odor, and all had metronidazole tabs yesterday.
Amy and Rosa seem to have "stuck" crops, and I'm not sure what to do for them next. I brought them to the house before I fed the flock, so they haven't had anything but water (if any) this morning.

Rosa's breathing is also sounding a little snuffly, so I guess she's going to need the doxy/baytril routine in addition to metro... but how do I give it until we get her crop working better?

Dolly got a metronidazole tab today, since she looked somewhat better than yesterday, but after eating, she started to stand like a penguin, so I brought her in the house too. 
Here are Amy & Rosa's droppings: (not sure whose is whose; made in the carrier on the way to the house)








And Dolly's droppings:









fwiw, the other birds in the loft look fine and so do their droppings. Here's hoping those stay that way.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin,


Candida in the Crop is one of the causes of the kind of discomfort which occasions the 'Penguin' Pose, and or also, weird Neck and Crop movements ( where they move their Crop side to side while holding their Head in one place and up high ).


Canker appears to be going on here, and, Candida may well be also, they often go hand-in-hand.

Either can be a Crop-Stopper.


Candida when in the Crop does not effect the poops the way it will when down low in the GI.


'Medistatin' or 'Nystatin' are the usual resort.



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The bottom image showing a droppinjg...this is a typical Canker sign dropping...'paint-like' Urates, which soak into to cloth or paper, instead of their being a 3-dimensional 'paste'...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Phil...

I have some medistatin, but I'm not sure how to administer it, or if it can be mixed with other meds (especially for Rosa, whose breathing is rough) and either dropped into beak to "tongue down" or need to be tubed... I'm not confident of good dose control if I just put the medistatin in their drinking water, since I don't know whether they will drink enough to be effective.

They all kept their metronidazole pills down yesterday, but today I can feel seeds in Amy's and Rosa's crops. I gently massaged their crops as I was checking them, but don't want to do them a mischief, especially Rosa, since her breathing is rough... I'm wondering if she aspirated anything while throwing up, or attempting to... (though I have not seen her doing it).


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dolly has just produced these droppings:








I'm glad they seem rather an improvement over the previous, but


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Update, For the record:
Amy weighs 365g and Dolly weighs 362g.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I was going to say, from the photo, Dolly looks like she has the best body posture and disposition, droppings don't look too bad. I think we should add the Baytril and the Nystatin (plus the Metro) for all three, I am feeling less comfortable waiting and seeing after looking at Rosa, and see how the response is to treatment.

It would be kind of unusual for 4 birds to come down with yeast/sour crop issues at once, more likely bacterial. That being said, Robin can you describe where and how you store their feed, how fresh is it, can moisture get to it before or after storage, do you have some around can you smell and even taste a bit of it for any musty smell or aftertaste?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Their feed is stored in a big plastic bin that holds a 50-lb bag, just inside my front door. It's dry in my house, we have forced-air heat, and central AC.
I have 2 similar smaller bins that I pour about 4-5 days' worth of seed into to take to the loft. In the loft, it's stored in a vacant nest box away from sunlight & rain. I bail it into the feeder with a soup can (my "measure") and keep an eye on what it looks like. 









I just got this bag of seed on Monday, at the place where I've gotten it since August.
I buy one bag at a time, until I get another big bin (came from Sam's last summer but they don't have them now )
It's the "10-grain mix" (no corn) branded "Birds Luv 'Em." 
When I poured it from the bag to the big bin on Tuesday, it smelled fine -- fresh, not musty, and still does. I've never tasted seeds before, but I don't notice any staleness or mustiness when I tried them just now. I'd notice immediately if there were any, because I'm allergic to mold, mildew, etc.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks Robin, I always appreciate how thorough you are in detailing things, with accompanying photos. Well, the feed sounds fine, just trying to eliminate some possibilities. so for now I think we can take this off out list.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Thanks Robin, I always appreciate how thorough you are in detailing things, with accompanying photos. Well, the feed sounds fine, just trying to eliminate some possibilities. so for now I think we can take this off out list.
> 
> Karyn


My husband just got home from work, and the first thing he asked me was whether I suspected a bad batch of feed, or contamination at the loft... I told him we'd just been discussing it. 

apropos of contamination, I always have an eye out for evidence of mice and other varmints, but have seen none in this coop (It is in the same building as others, now vacant, but doesn't connect with the other sections).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Post # 27 appears to show pretty good poops.


You can always put some of the Feed in your mouth, hydrate it a while by just keeping it there ( it'll soften up with one's Saliva ) chew it up well, see how it tastes....should taste good...if not, then...


Indeed, many times there is good reason to include Baytril along with the Metronidazole and Medistatin ( and even 'Reglan' injections ) when confronting a serious Crop Stasis syndrome.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Post # 27 appears to show pretty good poops.


Those are from Dolly; I was going to just give her a metro tab and leave her with her mate, but she started doing the neck thing after she ate, so I brought her into the house too (wrapped in a towel & tucked in my jacket as I walked up the road, since I'd already sent the carrier with the other 2 up to the house with a friend).



> You can always put some of the Feed in your mouth, hydrate it a while by just keeping it there ( it'll soften up with one's Saliva ) chew it up well, see how it tastes....should taste good...if not, then...


I did put some in my mouth, but didn't chew it up. It didn't taste bad, but I prefer my grains baked. 



> Indeed, many times there is good reason to include Baytril along with the Metronidazole and Medistatin ( and even 'Reglan' injections ) when confronting a serious Crop Stasis syndrome.


Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm following you... I was thinking the Baytril would have been in case a respiratory infection was the cause of the snuffly breathing, which improved somewhat after she vomited the peas, etc.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm following you... I was thinking the Baytril would have been in case a respiratory infection was the cause of the snuffly breathing, which improved somewhat after she vomited the peas, etc.


Robin, Baytril is used for more than respiratory infections. It can be used where there is suspicion of infection, bacterial in nature, where you are unsure of the infecting pathogen, but want to give an antibiotic that a very good deal of bacteria are still sensitive to. So we have Rosa (and others) who are ill, we are unsure of the cause of illness, but suspect some kind of infection, so we are treating with Metronidazole to cover canker and anaerobic bacteria, Medistatin for yeast issues and the Baytril as a broad spectrum antibiotic to cast a wide net for a number of infectious bacteria.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sometimes there is a Bacterial component riding along with these Crop Stasis or Candida/Canker Syndrome conditions...

Since no harm to the Bird to include a Baytril along weith the other Meds, may as well do it.

Too, Canker can make open Lesions in the upper GI and or Crop, into which, opportuning Bacteria ( especially in Crop Stasis where everything in the Crop is becoming an incubating 'Stew-Culture' for all and every form of Micro-Organism) can then cause local and or systemic infections, so...

Like that...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

For the moment, I have Dolly, Amy, and Nancy sharing a big cage. 
Dolly was hassling Amy a little while ago, but now is letting her alone. 
Nancy is mostly rubbernecking the drama but will roocoo back at Dolly. 
Amy has discovered that it's warm near a lamp on an adjacent chest of drawers and is sitting in that corner, and the others have chosen other "turf" so it's all calm for now. 
If necessary, I'll figure out how to divide the cage to separate them; meanwhile, just keeping an ear out for the sound of trouble (scuffle and/or aggressive roocoos).

All three have had metronidazole today, and I've seen them all drink. They are drinking well; I'll probably need to refill their water (pedialyte) cup when I turn in for the night. 

I checked Amy's throat a little while ago, but there were no obstructions as far as I could see down. I put a small dish of finch seed in the opposite corner from Amy so the other two can eat if they wish (I'll probably take it away before I go to bed.)

The only med Nancy's been getting is metronidazole. Should Dolly get anything else? I'm guessing Amy should probably get Medistatin and maybe Baytril, since she's having some crop congestion, though not as bad as Rosa...



Dobato said:


> Robin, Baytril is used for more than respiratory infections. It can be used where there is suspicion of infection, bacterial in nature, where you are unsure of the infecting pathogen, but want to give an antibiotic that a very good deal of bacteria are still sensitive to. So we have Rosa (and others) who are ill, we are unsure of the cause of illness, but suspect some kind of infection, so we are treating with Metronidazole to cover canker and anaerobic bacteria, Medistatin for yeast issues and the Baytril as a broad spectrum antibiotic to cast a wide net for a number of infectious bacteria.
> 
> Karyn


Karyn, thanks for the clarification; that makes sense.
I guess I'm too stressed at the moment to string together information from a variety of posts and build a "big picture."


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You may as well provide the same regimen/meds/procedures for all who have Slow or Static Crops...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> You may as well provide the same regimen/meds/procedures for all who have Slow or Static Crops...


I concur, yes, same regime for all in hospital.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Would it be all right to give the metronidazole as tabs to birds who are eating & drinking on their own, instead of mixing it into the liquid meds?
Is it possible to mix a batch of baytril, nystatin, and ACV together, to simplify building/drawing liquid doses for multiple birds, since they're all getting the same meds?
I guess I need to make a few more tubes, too.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Would it be all right to give the metronidazole as tabs to birds who are eating & drinking on their own, instead of mixing it into the liquid meds?
> Is it possible to mix a batch of baytril, nystatin, and ACV together, to simplify building/drawing liquid doses for multiple birds, since they're all getting the same meds?
> I guess I need to make a few more tubes, too.


Robin, you could give the Metronidazole in tablet form to these birds, you could also mix up a larger batch of the Baytril, Nystatin, and ACV together. However, I would feel uncomfortable telling you to just go from bird to bird to bird tubing this without a very good soaking/rinsing of the tube/syringe in a 1:9 bleach solution (1 part bleach to 9 parts water) and then cleaning after with warm soapy water before using again. I don't take for granted they are all infected with the same pathogen(s) so we don't want to inadvertently transfer anything from one to another. I know they are sharing a cage, but this is what I would do if I were using the same batch of meds and the same tubing apparatus.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

This morning Nancy and Dolly are looking good (and their droppings are not bad), but Amy's crop is still stuck and whatever's in there has plenty of liquid, since I can't see any discrete objects when I look down. (I was hoping to fish out the offenders with a q-tip like I did with Rosa). Amy's droppings are mostly bile & urates, but seem to have a little grittiness (fiber?) here and there.

I tube fed her the nystatin/baytril/acv mixture last night, but I think she must have been continuing to drink on her own; there were more "Amy droppings" overnight than the tubed dose would account for...

How can I get her to void her crop, with reasonable safety? 

If there's not anything that I can do for this, she may be the one seeing the vet, instead of Rosa, whom I'll update in her own thread.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, there are four ways for them to void their crop contents, one is they do it themselves by throwing up, two is if it's just fluid/formula down there and no seeds/larger food, it can be suctioned out with a feeding tube/needle as there will be nothing large to block the tube/needle up, three, crop milking, where they are mechanically helped by hand to void the crop. The first two ways, in that order, are relatively safe, the third, crop milking, because of the way it is done less so, to much less so, depending on the experience of the person doing the procedure. The Fourth is surgical, where in incision is made to the crop, the contents voided and flushed and then sutured up again, not a procedure that is very commonly done.

Best to get her into the vet and have her crop flushed and milked if need, as you want experienced hands doing this, if it needs to be done.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Well, I've just spent an hour on the phone, on a wild goose chase finding someone to see Amy today, and finally found one... (apparently avian vets like to take Fridays off ) 

... it ends up being an "emergency" visit (carries "emergency fee" of $110, which is not too extortionate, plus charges for whatever is done); the "other side" of this is a "specialty" practice (dermatology, cardio, oncology, etc) for many kinds of animals and requires a referral from one's regular vet.

The receptionist was helpful on the phone, and even offered to check with the vets to find out if they would see pigeons, and they do, so we're off...

Here's their info for the "will see pigeons" resource roster: 

Pittsburgh Veterinary Specialty & AMP Emergency Center
807 Camp Horne Road
Pittsburgh, PA 15237-1207
(412) 366-3400
pvs-ec.com‎


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, you're a gem, thanks for going all out for her. Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin,


When suspecting Crop Stasis, and, seeing that the Observation Cage holding the individual is showing little Urates passing, it is best to with hold food and Water.

It is best to have no food or water in an observation Cage for that matter, when the individual is suspected of Crop Stasis, since they will over drink for being thirsty when too little liquid is passing, and, over fill themselves into a possibly dangerous or certainyl inconvenient condition.


Combinations of various Meds for one combined dose, for one Bird, may be dissolved in a Syringe, and, Tubed in.


I would not try making up multiple doses in the same syringe for multiple Birds, or, even, for the same Bird to have multiple doses from.


Syringes and Catheters are inexpensive. Go to any Home Medical Supply place and buy a good hand full of each.


Do you need a refresher on what kinds to get?


Plain Nose, 10 mL Syringe.


No. 8 French, Pediatric, Urinay Catheter, 'Silicone', having one end shaped like a long subtle, slowly tapering funnel, and this end then fits as-is onto the Syringe Nose...do not accept any which have a different material for that end, the one you want is a one piece affair, where the one end is merely slightly larer abd fits as-is onto the Syringe nose.




While at the home med supply store, get some 'micropore' Tape of 1/2 inch Width..use a six inch length of the Tape to fold over the upper area of the Catheter, so you have a three inch 'Flag', write on it with a Sharpie, what Bird it is for.


Each Bird needing Tube procedures should have their own Tube anyway, if not their own Tube and Syringe combo.


If a Bird can eat, they can have a Tablet or Pill to swallow, though, breaking a Tablet into fourths is probably easier and kinder for swallowing than leaving it whole would be.


Birds who have inflammation/debris in the Esophagus, or, who have Crop Stasis, or of whom either is suspected, should have their Meds dissolved properly, and, administered directly into the Crop via the Syringe and Catheter section.


Birds having inconvenient liquid contents in a Static Crop, may - and should - have those liquids suctioned out, by use of a specially prepared Catheter section which has an additional second opening made on the side for the occasion, close to the Bottom opening, in order to prevent tissue form obturating a single opening and preveneting suctioning or harming the tissue from suctioning attempts. So, a suctioning Catheter section has the usual angle cut, flame softened opening on the end, and, another small opening about 1/4 inch up, on the side opposite the angle of the bottom one.


Conspicuous or palpable liquids in a Static Crop should be evacuated prior to administering initial medicines for addressing the Stasis medicinally.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Reglan' injections can be helpful for reducing inflammation of effected tissues which are participating in the Stasis condition.

If appealing to a Vet for this affliction, consider to request a handfull of prepared Injection Syringes for being able to administer the Reglan to the afflicted who may benifit from it.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Amy's back from the vet, after 12 hours (it's an emergency room, so the most unstable are taken care of first, and apparently Amy was more "stable" than many of the other patients, though she was seen within minutes of our arrival, but had to wait for getting the crop cleared).
She was seen by Dr Kristi Sowers, who is very comfortable treating pigeons, and better yet, comfortable with pigeon owners who do the basic care/treatment themselves, and ask a lot of questions . I'm very pleased with her attitude, and with the way Amy and I were treated by everyone there.

The main culprit for the crop problem turned out to be candidiasis, but xrays showed Amy also has some aspiration pneumonia, which Dr Sowers says is now the main concern. Today Amy weighed only 317g, down from 362 yesterday. (I don't know whether that was weight before or after the crop was emptied...)

It took Dr Sowers more than an hour to get all the junk out of the crop; she was surprised how much was in there. Analysis of contents revealed the candidiasis, but no evidence of trichomonas. She gave Amy subcutaneous fluids and injections of reglan (and oral reglan (metoclopramide 1mg/ml) to give .1ml every 8 hours for the next 5 days); baytril (and instructions for oral dosing twice daily for the next 10 days, .06ml of 5%); an injection for pain (and meloxicam 1.5mg/ml to give orally .02ml daily for 3 days - this is preloaded in syringes). Also gave instructions to give Nystatin for 7 days (according to package directions), and TMS solution (240mg/5ml) .04ml every 12 hours for 10 days.
I may have to make myself a chart for this, to keep it all straight...
Dr Sowers also said to give nystatin to any of the others who present with slow crops.

Feeding instructions: "gruel" (exact) for 2 days, then offer small seeds and/or pellets for 3 days, and pedialyte for drinking water until she returns to normal diet. 

The only thing that's not in the instructions, and which I was too fried to ask about was how much "gruel" is enough? I know to wait until the crop empties to give more, but don't want to short her rations.

There's some more details on the report but I'm too pooped to transcribe the whole thing, so feel free to ask me, if anything important seems to be missing from what I've posted.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



Sounds good...

So glad to hear you found a cool vet! And, one who understands some things about Pigeons and who likes Pigeons!


If it was me, I'd use ( a Three Tablespoon to the Gallon concentration of ) ACV-Water for mixing the 'Gruel'...mix it 'Soupy', three 10 mL Meals-a-day, or four even, or, so long as it is passing in a timely way, anyway...and, I'd do that for four days, before trying small whole Seeds via her being allowed to peck them.

You can add 'NUTRICAL' or it's equivelent, ( Brown Goo, comes in a plastic Tube, Puppy-n-Kitten Isle of Petsmart )...to increase the Calorie/nutrition content of the Gruel.


Good luck!


Phil
L v


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Phil, actually I lucked out and found 2 cool vets in the same week.  The vet who saw Velvet the other day was only in her office for a few hours this morning, and was already gone by the time I realized Amy needed to see a vet, _today,_so after calling about 6 places, and getting suggestions because they didn't have anyone "in" today who could see Amy, landed at this place.

Dr Sowers said pedialyte would be good for mixing the gruel, but ACV can be added to that, right? (I hope so, because I've done it before ) ... thanks for the suggested servings. 

Nancy & Dolly had eaten (but spilled a little) almost all the finch mix I gave them this morning before I took Amy to the vet, and had been drinking well from the pedialyte. They both looked good tonight, and the droppings did too, but I still gave them nystatin, since I'm not entirely sure they're "over" the crop thing. I hadn't given them any nystatin since this started, only metronidazole. 

Since the nystatin has instructions for dusting seeds with it, would it be a good idea to provide it to the whole flock, or is it something that will produce resistant organisms if given too liberally/frequently?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, glad things went well at the vet for you, despite the long wait time. Sometimes it is best that we do get them in for the extra bit of help that will make all the difference in a good outcome in their recover. Sounds like the crop was well clogged up, and when like this experienced hands are best to help resolve things without causing further problems for the bird in question.

I agree with Phil, with would use 3 tablespoons a gallon to make up the formula and there is no problem in adding this to Pedialyte. Sounds like Nancy and Dolly could be separated out and given a larger mix than the finch seeds (but no corn/peas/unhulled oats and other larger items) as even from the initial photos they did not appear to be as far along in illness.

Do keep them all on the AB's and Medistatin and with any luck things should be better for all before to long with proper treatment and a cleared crop for Amy, do keep an close eye on Rosa as well.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin,


As far as I understand it, Candida is not a contageous illness.


It can or will occur in the Crop, or in the GI, or even in other areas of the Body, when other things/conditions, Immune-related, Flora-and-fauna related, injury related, are 'off'...and or Candida or Yeast infections/infestations can or will occur in the company of Bacterial or Canker troubles in the GI.


I do not think you would benifit the Birds in the Loft by dusting their Seeds with Nystatin or Medistatin.


ACV-Water for them would likely be a better benifit, as would be reviewing conditions or details which might be inviting Bacterial or immune deficiency or dietary related problems/liabilities.


Fresh Greens, Direct Sunshine, sources of various Amino Acids, Omega Three Fatty Acids, etc, and, regular exercise of course...ideally, should be provided.


Not always easy to do!



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Small setback with Amy...

I made up 10cc of fairly thin exact that also had the dose of medistatin in it, and tubed it to her just after having her tongue down her dose of reglan (she gets 3x daily), and she threw most of it back up, _including a few more small seeds!_

I guess Dr Sowers didn't get them all  though Amy did keep down her morning meds (all small quantities, tongued down).

I guess 10cc was too much, too soon... so how should I reconfigure this, once I mop up the mess and change my clothes? (she spewed like a runaway fire hose!)

ETA: Amy sneezed a few times -- guess it went "up her nose?" -- I held her again, to check her mouth & throat, and she threw up some more; now her breathing sounds a bit snuffly, her crop sometimes moves as she breathes, and she opens her beak on some breaths, _and I am Scared_. The instructions from Dr Sowers say call them or see your vet if breathing like this happens, but none of the vets who see birds are at any of the vet or ER offices NOW! Please, What can I do, if anything other than Pray?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, 10mL was too much too soon. Please review your thread with Junior, Exact did not come until later on, both Amy and Rosa need managed the same. Start with 5mL at a time of Nutrical cocktails, with meds added when time. Please see my post in your other thread http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525974&postcount=38 for a tip on how to get a bird, if you really have not overloaded them, not to throw what you just tubed into them back up.

They can actually bring food back up from farther down then the crop, so it may be good in a way she brought up, but please for both, take it slow and easy, small amounts of cocktails, no Exact, for at least the next day or two, perhaps even more. You can start the morning with a double dose of Medistatin in 3cc Pedialyte and gently massage this around Rosa's and Amy's crop, follow in an hour with the rest of the meds in 5-6cc of cocktail, check crop in a few hours, if contents passed, feed 5-6cc of cocktail, and so on through the day. At night do the same with the Medistatin, then back to meds and cocktails (for that matter, you can actually start tonight with a double dose of the Medistatin in 3cc of Pedialyte 1 hour before other meds and cocktail).

First, take a DEEP breath, you will get through this, slow things down in your mind, we are here for you.

Please review with us the Reglan you have, how much in each syringe, what strength (if known).

Also, when they are like this, you want what you are tubing into them just the slightest bit warm, not to the more normal warmth you would usually make something you are tubing. My experience is that the sensation of warmth in their crop helps trigger the urge to throw up and if you can manage to make the temperature "neutral" so no sensation is generated by what you just added it helps, as we are trying to "sneak" small amounts into them without them or their bodies objecting.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I hope this is reglan; it's what I was given as 'oral' reglan: 
metoclopramide 1mg/ml, the syringes are loaded with .1ml, as that's the dose for once every 8 hours, for 5 days. 
So far, Amy has had 2, but probably threw up most of the last one; I'd given it to her to tongue down a few minutes before the tube feeding.

I don't think the formula was too warm, the pedialyte base was warmed from refrigerated temp but cooled with the stirring in of the exact & medistatin powders.

Then it is OK to wait until morning to give either of them anything? 
Rosa did not get anything by mouth at the vet, and I don't think she got fluids either.
I'm leery of trying to get anything into Amy until her breathing is less slurpy... and not sure how to gauge when she might be ready to try more, and after this blunder, want to go very carefully with them both.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oye...


Occasions like this, once I have evacuated any old Liquids in the Crop, I tube in JUST the solution of Meds, with a little ACV in it, and wait a few hours, or wait a Day and repeat, and, then, m-a-y-b-e, but usually not for a day or more of fasting, tube in like 3 mL Of 50/50 Water & Nutrical with some Black Cherry Juice...

If that passes, then I repeat in a couple hours...staggered way after the Meds administration into the Crop.


Images of her recent poops?


Something I have thought about but never tried yet, is to use a little Syrup of Ipecac, or Ipecac in tepid Saline, and see if I could help them throw up a few more times, to get more of the offending toxic fermenting or spoiled foods and slime and accumulated inflamitory debriu goo and goo glued Seed clumps out of their Crop...first, before trying to do meds and feeds and so on.

Heck, those things can likely be all the way back to the Stomach for all we know...Stomach is saying "NO", peoventriculus is stuck in the middle, clogged ot welling with debris, Crop is saying "No!", the stuff is stalled, for not being admitted to pass further on down, and, is hard to expell upward.



I just do not know if Syrup of Ipecac would work in the Mucosa of the Crop in the same way as it does in a Mammal Stomach Mucosa...might, might not, and, I have not found any literature to edify.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, with the Reglan, you should wait 30-45 minutes before giving anything after, as it needs time to enter their system and a few minutes, even 15-20 minutes is not going to be enough unless injected, for the Reglan to exert its effects. It's really not a case of too warm, more than, at least for me, in very bad cases, them feeling any sensation coming from what is tubed, if it is "neutral" feeling and not too much, this helps us with our cause of them not throwing up.

Did a quick read on Ipecac, although just on Wiki, seems in itself it can have some adverse effects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrup_of_ipecac

I would make sure that if possible they get the Medistatin in a few ccs' of Pedialyte and gently massaged around their crops and a few hours later 5cc of cocktail with the rest of the meds for a bit of energy and hopeful to allow the meds to work overnight. Even if you have to wait until late for Amy she needs to get the antibiotics into her. Keep the water bottle handy.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Amy's breathing with her beak closed now, and it's sounding a lot less "slurpy" than it was, so I'm a bit relieved... and figure that in a few hours maybe I can give her the other "tiny dose" meds that she can tongue down, if her breathing continues to improve? 

Poop images presently; I need help to change my camera battery (cats launched it, the door doesn't work right, and my thumb is not strong enough to push the lid forward).

Of all Amy's meds, the only one that's too large a quantity to "tongue down" is the medistatin. Is it possible to make it a more concentrated suspension for a smaller dose? To my knowledge she did not vomit any of the meds she got this morning in the "few drops" type doses (which was everything but the medistatin). 

@Phil - is there a preferred brand of black cherry juice? I have not seen it where I shop, but a good friend shops at a health food store frequently and would bring me some (he gets the Bragg's ACV there for me).

@Karyn - thanks for the extra info about the timing of the reglan and the other meds. That makes a lot of sense, but I hadn't really thought about it, since the instructions I got at the vet didn't mention it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, we have to think small right now, if you can get 3-4cc of cocktails into them 5 times spread through the day this will be 15-20cc and enough to get them by to give the meds a chance.

Yes, we can concentrate the Medistatin, please remind me what you have and what strength you are currently using.

I would even wait an hour after the Reglan because of the slowness of the crop right now to make sure it is at a therapeutic dose level in them, Reglan does a few things, but mainly right now improves the crop function, hence emptying time.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Small Bottles of Concentrated, Organic, Pure, Juice of Black Cherry, Elderberry, Cranberry, Blueberry, are available at any Health Food Store, and do not cost much.

A little dab of the concentrate makes a Glass of normal strength Juice, and, Birds can handle it being stouter than a 'normal juice' concentration, too.



Why not 'tube' the Meds in?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Small Bottles of Concentrated, Organic, Pure, Juice of Black Cherry, Elderberry, Cranberry, Blueberry, are available at any Health Food Store, and do not cost much.
> A little dab of the concentrate makes a Glass of normal strength Juice, and, Birds can handle it being stouter than a 'normal juice' concentration, too.
> 
> Why not 'tube' the Meds in?


I will look for these juice concentrates, when I get a chance to shop.

The tiny doses would get lost in the tube, wouldn't they? Sometimes I'm not sure the smallest doses actually get enough into the bird just with the "tonguing down" method (on account of the leftover bit in the tip of the syringe, but figure that's at least theoretically accounted for).

I made a google docs spreadsheet with what I am juggling so far... it should be accessible to "anyone with the link," so here's the link:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t4G9CFrdaOTTq7Tk64eJEHw&authkey=CM3bndcO&hl=en#gid=0
Let me know what needs to be adjusted...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, because the vet has said there is a candida issue at hand we could tube some, but we also want to give them it orally and let them swallow some, as already mentioned Medistatin/Nystatin is a contact med and if we tube directly into the crop this leaves tissue from the mouth down to the crop, if we just tube, that will not come in contact with the med and hence avoid treatment.

Don't forget my question on your Nystatin. 

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, we have to think small right now, if you can get 3-4cc of cocktails into them 5 times spread through the day this will be 15-20cc and enough to get them by to give the meds a chance.
> 
> Yes, we can concentrate the Medistatin, please remind me what you have and what strength you are currently using.
> 
> ...


Medistatin powder concentration is 400,000 IU /gram.
What I have been using is the 1 t. per 20ml concentration as directed on the Medistatin container.

I found among my notes a "recipe" for 1/2 t. medistatin, 2ml water, and 3ml Karo, to be given twice daily at .20 ml. If that is appropriate to use for Amy & Rosa, after waiting for the reglan to work, should it also go before the other meds, or is the order of all the "tongued" doses less important or unimportant?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Instructions as seen on the container of 'Medistatin' ( "MEDPET" Brand )

"Contains : Nystatin 400 000 i.u per gram"

"Treatment: Mix 1g per 20 ml water, shake well and dose 1ml of mixture per 100 g body wright twice daily."


Comes with a small Spoon whose capacity, when 'heaping', is 1 g.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin you can do this:

Mix 1 teaspoon, about 5 grams, (use a cooking teaspoon, not a common flatware teaspoon) of the Medistatin (scoop in don't compress and level with a sweep if a knife blade) into 5mL (1 cooking teaspoon) of pancake syrup, it will stir in quite well. Give her .25cc, this will be 100,000IU. This is about 5 drops and you can give it to her/them a drop or two at at time to the front of the mouth to be tongued it down. Stir or shake before drawing a dose and keep it refrigerated between use. The usual dosing for this is twice a day, but I would increase the frequency to 3-4 times a day for a few days right now, and then move to twice a day dosing. You can give it an hour before or after the antibiotics or the same timing with cocktails. Stir/shake well before each use and keep in the refrigerator between use.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I've just given Amy & Rosa their doses of reglan (.2ml tongued).
Rosa took hers calmly, but Amy was agitated/annoyed, and her breathing roughened somewhat. 
She didn't seem inclined to vomit, despite a lot of squirming and trying to dodge the dose... 
Now to stay awake for another few hours to administer all the rest... 

Pic of Amy's droppings from afternoon/evening:








The tan streaks are some fluid she vomited.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin you can do this:
> 
> Mix 1 teaspoon, about 5 grams, (use a cooking teaspoon, not a common flatware teaspoon) of the Medistatin (scoop in don't compress and level with a sweep if a knife blade) into 5mL (1 cooking teaspoon) of pancake syrup, it will stir in quite well. Give her .25cc, this will be 100,000IU. This is about 5 drops and you can give it to her/them a drop or two at at time to the front of the mouth to be tongued it down. Stir or shake before drawing a dose and keep it refrigerated between use. The usual dosing for this is twice a day, but I would increase the frequency to 3-4 times a day for a few days right now, and then move to twice a day dosing. You can give it an hour before or after the antibiotics or the same timing with cocktails. Stir/shake well before each use and keep in the refrigerator between use.
> 
> Karyn


Thanks for new recipe & instructions; will give it after the antibiotics tonight, since I think they need priority on account of Amy's breathing...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Sunday morning: 
Here are Amy's overnight droppings. She's had her reglan and I'm about to give the antibiotics... 








Dr Sowers mentioned that she might be spitting up small amounts of blood-tinged mucus as the inflammation clears... I gave her the reglan after changing the paper, so this was sometime overnight, and some while after she got her AB doses last night.

Right now she's breathing more quietly, but sounds "slurpy" when agitated. 
(I wish she were calmer by nature, but she's normally a little high strung & aggressive).

Nancy & Dolly, who were less afflicted, have made good progress. Their droppings are looking pretty much normal (well formed, good color & texture, white "dollop" urates) and I heard them exercising their wings a little while ago (the cage is big enough for them to do that).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Sunday morning:
> Here are Amy's overnight droppings. She's had her reglan and I'm about to give the antibiotics...
> 
> Right now she's breathing more quietly, but sounds "slurpy" when agitated.
> ...


Sounds like she's a fighter, good! Glad to hear Nancy and Dolly are coming along well. As mentioned in your other thread, lots of small cocktails through the day for Amy and Rosa.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

While not quite so ideal as could be, my own method is to simply put whatever Pill or Tablet Meds as will be the Bird's Dose, into the empty Syringe...I draw in about 1mL of the Medistatin Solution in the concentration I make it in, and, by expelling into a Shot Glass, crushing the Tablets thereby, and, drawing that back into the Syringe again, with some Air, then shaking well till all is thoroughly dissolved...

I warm it a little, affix the Catheter section, lube it, and, and dispense the Meds directly into the Pigeon's Crop.


I may tube in a light Meal a while later.


This is easy to do, vastly easier on the Bird, and on me, than trying to dribble in solutions, and, the 'Tube' of course, when well into the Crop, is entirely well past the Trachea...and, supplies their dosages of the medley of Meds, in one application.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm planning to include metronidazole in the lineup, and will be using the dissolve in syringe/shot glass method of mixing... I may need a different shot glass, because, although the one I have is a "v" shape inside, I can't get that last little puddle out of the bottom of it.  

Giving the medistatin by dribble method presently, so the whole mouth & throat have an opportunity to benefit.

There hasn't been any spitting up since the antibiotics about 3-3.5 hours ago, and a few tiny droppings. 

I bet Amy and Rosa are thirsty and would drink, but I know it's not safe to let them, so they will have to wait for cocktails.

What is a safe starting quantity for cocktail, given the earlier spitting up situation?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> What is a safe starting quantity for cocktail, given the earlier spitting up situation?


I would try 3-4cc for today and if all goes well (keep the spray bottle at hand) tomorrow 5mL, the next day 6mL. Try for as many cocktails as you can manage.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Usually, the Candida related inflammations/infestation/debris related, etc, would be down low or on the low sides, fading as things go up...


While dribbling orally to provide contact opportunities for the Medistatin to flow over upper Esophagul Tissues, is a nice and intentionally oriented idea, I am confident that in practice, the location of the Candida will be found to be low, and on the lower sides of the Crop, to where, a use of 'The Tube' for direct administration into the Crop, will suffice perfectly well for the condition as it tends to be.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Amy has kept a 3ml cocktail down (I waited an hour after the latest reglan dose to give it) but looks uncomfortable.

The cocktail has the medistatin dose in it... after refrigerating the recipe Karyn just gave me, the stuff is like fudge, so I added it to the cocktail; no way to get that into & out of a 1ml syringe gracefully!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Did you warm it up?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Did you warm it up?


Stirred the chilled nystatin mixture into a warm cocktail, and rechecked for appropriate warmth...

Is it OK to repeatedly warm & chill the meds mixtures? 
(as in make a batch, use some, chill it, warm it to get next dose, chill again, etc)

Amy and Rosa have both had some "free" time in the room, one at a time. 
They seemed to enjoy looking around, watching me tidy up, etc. and didn't try to avoid me as I moved about the room (though they can both fly well enough to, if they wanted to).
Short flying (from cage top to sink, etc) generated some coughing and spitting (not vomiting) but overall their breathing doesn't seem worse for the adventure. 

I'm continuing to play the "healing" music for them; it does seem to calm them. Or, at least it calms me, and maybe that calms them...

I can't really evaluate when their crops would be "empty" enough to try more; neither one feels different after 3ml of cocktail than before... is there any good way to estimate when it's time for more?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Amy has kept a 3ml cocktail down (I waited an hour after the latest reglan dose to give it) but looks uncomfortable.
> 
> The cocktail has the medistatin dose in it... after refrigerating the recipe Karyn just gave me, the stuff is like fudge, so I added it to the cocktail; no way to get that into & out of a 1ml syringe gracefully!


Robin, you can add a bit of water to this, add, 2.5cc and just increase the amount you give from 0.25 to 0.40cc, this should help with its thickness.

Phil, I agree, the root of the Candida would be lower in the crop, but if they are regurgitating crop contents up the throat and out, their crop contents will have Candida spores in it, I think it would be prudent to consider that these spores could start to infect the esophagus and mouth area if not treated, I may be off in thinking this, but it seems a reasonable conclusion to make.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, you can add a bit of water to this, add, 2.5cc and just increase the amount you give from 0.25 to 0.40cc, this should help with its thickness.
> 
> Phil, I agree, the root of the Candida would be lower in the crop, but if they are regurgitating crop contents up the throat and out, their crop contents will have Candida spores in it, I think it would be prudent to consider that these spores could start to infect the esophagus and mouth area if not treated, I may be off in thinking this, but it seems a reasonable conclusion to make.
> 
> Karyn


What I should have done is use the original recipe Karyn gave me, that was the syrup and water, and just doubled the amount of medistatin to match the strength in the recent recipe. 

Amy and Rosa had their first dose of medistatin dripped to the beak; since then they have been in the cocktails. 

Amy seems to be holding the cocktails down pretty well, but I'm still planning to try to get Dr Pleban to see her (and Rosa) tomorrow. 
I'm frustrated (and a little frightened) that we don't seem to have reached a turning point with them yet...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I think another good flushing may do the trick. Mention to the vet about using a very dilute chlorhexidine solution (0.05%) to flush their crops, as mentioned before, here is a link for it out of the "Big Book" (Avian Medicine by Ritchie/Harrison), page 22 of 35 in the PDF (or 403 top right corner). You could always print the page and take it for them.

http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/15.pdf

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Monday morning update: 
Amy didn't spit up anything after her last cocktail last night. 
here's the overnight production-- I think I see some Real Poo there:









I called and nobody who has already seen my pij is available today, but a vet who was among the first recommended, but unavailable last week, can see Amy and Rosa at 2pm today. :whew:

No spitting up following the morning Reglan, so cocktails w/ meds will presently follow...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I think the meds are finally starting to take hold, I see some real solids in the droppings as well, might be best to get them in one more time, just to be sure.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Amy's back from her vet visit, and I'm pleased to say we've identified another pigeon-friendly vet in the Pittsburgh area.  
I discovered, in conversation with the receptionist, that they are acquainted with at least one member of the racing club my pigeons came from...
Everyone there is friendly and helpful, and several of the staff I met seem to be familiar with birds. 
The tech who checked us in seemed particularly familiar with pigeons... 
Dr Dorn is very approachable and listens patiently and kindly to clumsy explanations. 

David P. Dorn, VMD 
West Liberty Animal Hospital
3055 W Liberty Ave
Pittsburgh, PA 15216-2460
412-341-3383
www.westlibertyanimalhospital.com

Dr Dorn weighed Amy (but I didn't get the weight) and checked over her, noted the dropping she'd made on the way, and noted that her crop had a little air in it.
We discussed tube feeding and he approved of Phil's tube design, reminding me to be sure to express air from the tube before it goes down the pigeon. 

He reviewed the care program recommended by Dr Sowers at the emergency clinic and the chart I made, agreed with all and said the main priority now is to get enough calories into her to get her weight back up. 
He recommended starting with formula today, though I was going to wait until tomorrow, and just give cocktails today.

I mentioned the forum to Dr Dorn, and though he didn't seem familiar with it, was pleased that I've gotten good advice here.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato said:


> Robin, you can add a bit of water to this, add, 2.5cc and just increase the amount you give from 0.25 to 0.40cc, this should help with its thickness.
> 
> Phil, I agree, the root of the Candida would be lower in the crop, but if they are regurgitating crop contents up the throat and out, their crop contents will have Candida spores in it, I think it would be prudent to consider that these spores could start to infect the esophagus and mouth area if not treated, I may be off in thinking this, but it seems a reasonable conclusion to make.
> 
> Karyn



Hi Karyn,


Understood...


I do not know what conditions are necessary for the Spores or infestation to occur...other than there probably needs to be some initial interference of some kind to the Mucous Layer...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


Glad to hear of to-days positive Vet experience.


Nutrical and some KT or similar, along with some Cherry Juice, so it's 'soupy', ought to be a good Formula for her for the time being then.


Maybe try 2.5 mL at a time, hour and a half then the next 2.5, see how she holds things down.

If she can manage 5 mL, so much the better of course!



Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

evening update: burping a pigeon 

Amy still seems to have a little air in her crop, but has been "burping" it out a little at a time. Between feedings, I hold her to check if her crop is ready, and have been able to massage up a little air at a time. This last time I think we got a good bit more out; she was willing to sit in my lap as though it were a nest, and let me lightly massage the crop; every so often she kind of burps and then sort of tongues down; I hope she isn't getting more air in... 

She's had 2 9ml cocktails since she's been back from the vet, and has produced a few improving droppings, and I'm planning to give her at least 1 more large cocktail tonight, maybe two if she's not uncomfortable. This evening she seems less uncomfortable after a serving than this morning; I guess that's a good sign.
I'll wait until tomorrow to start with formula, so I can prepare it tonight and freeze it, the way Phil recommends, so it gets a good texture...

Is 10-15cc a good quantity per serving of "gruel?" (for tomorrow, not tonight)
I don't want to overfill her since her crop was distended by the impaction of seeds, but I don't want to hassle her with frequent tiny servings.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, could you describe better what you mean by "gruel"?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Oops, sorry, that was vague enough to have been anything, eh?
"Gruel" is a local catchall word  What I meant was formula + meds, etc. 
I have about 1/2 cup of exact mixed up and freezing so it's ready for tomorrow.

small update:
Amy just polished off a 12ml serving of cocktail, with her late-night meds in it. 
Breathing is now silent except when she grunts at me; no slurps or gurgles. 
I think the humidifier is helping, though the room does not feel damp (it's 23°F on my porch, and snowy; the rest of the house is very dry).
Her droppings between midafternoon and early evening were rather wet, with not much fecal matter, but the most recent ones are looking better; still wet, but more formed.
Is it possible that her earlier droppings were a backlog of whatever was in her system, and now is passing what she's consumed in the past day or so? 
I will post an image of the overnight droppings in the morning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


I never Tube feed anyone more than 10 mL at a time.


Not saying one could not, just saying I never have.


If she holds it down alright, then, I recon all is fine with that!


Long as the last meal is passing well, then there ought to be room.


'Air' in the Crop is usually fermentation off-gassing from Yeast or Candida infection in the Crop.


I suppose a Pigeon could sort of swallow actual Air, and, inflate their Crop that way also accidently or from nerves...of course the Males do this intentionally when showing off to a Hen or doing claims of Territory, but, that is a different context, of course...and they let the Air out as they please.


Does the 'Air' have any odor?




I think Bella F was calling the mashed Pellets 'Gruel', now eveyone is!!


Gruel would be a totally old fashioned name for the 'formula' we make or use, so...kinda cute I think.


Lol...



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Phil, thanks for the extra info...

I can live with tubing 10ml at a time (my hand is not big enough to use a much bigger syringe one-handed)  and now that I've had time to ponder further, it seems that not trying to "supersize" Amy's servings would be wiser because her crop was stretched by the backlog of seeds...

Amy's been getting medistatin since Saturday; should yeast still be making air in her crop? (sometimes she roo-coos like the boys, but not in the house, so far)
The air has no odor, and she has not had any bad odors since she got her crop cleaned out on Friday night. She never had that "sick & bloody" odor that poor Rosa had...

Dr Sowers at the ER called formula "gruel" --


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, as Phil says, I would also keep the meals smaller right now at 10mL, and just feed a little more often as the crop empties. No sense pushing her too much and getting set back. The air could be from a combination of things, but I would expect it to start to resolve once the meds had more of a chance to do their job. Thanks for the explaination on "gruel" .

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

*We Lost Amy*

This morning, when I went in to check on Amy, she seemed pretty good, but still had some air in her crop. While I held her for her reglan dose, before I gave it, I massaged her crop a little and she burped up some air, and then gave her the reglan (~4 drops to tongue down) which she took without incident. 

I sat with her a little while, and then returned her to hospital cage, and kept an eye on her while I tidied up in the room, and she seemed OK. So, I went to the other room to give Velvet a med, set out fresh seeds for everyone and tidy up in there, and when I was done, checked on Amy again.

I noticed she'd spat up a little clear liquid tinged with pinkish brown, so I changed her paper and watched her a little while, and when she didn't spit again, I left the room to do a few more chores.

When I returned, maybe 30 minutes later, Amy's breathing was a little labored (audible, tail moving a little), and her eyes looked _old_, so I called Dr Dorn's office. They said he could see her as soon as I could get there, so I pre-warmed the car, wrapped the carrier in a blanket (it's in the low 20s and windy), and got her there as fast as I could drive safely (maybe 25 minutes; we had good red-light karma). 

A few minutes after our arrival, in the exam room, she sat down in the carrier, her nose ran clear fluid for a few breaths, and she expired just after Dr Dorn came into the room. 

I detailed to him everything I'd done with her since we left the office yesterday, and he was surprised that her condition had deteriorated... especially since she didn't seem "worse" earlier this morning.

We discussed identifying birds with problems, especially with hens who are sitting on their nests a lot of the time, when it's less obvious that they're not as active as a healthy bird, and the massive "sitting" droppings are not as easy to interpret.

He asked what I feed them, recommended adding vitamins to the flock diet, and gave me some nutrition information for my notebook, but I have not had a chance to look it over yet.

So, this afternoon we will bury Amy and Rosa in Carl's garden near the Buddha...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I really am at a lost for words for you, this whole episode leaves me feeling like I could just scream. There should have been enough time to save these guys, I am thinking that perhaps what was at the root of their illness just may not have been properly identified or maybe treated aggressively enough. Both Rosa and Amy were on a combination of very good anti-biotics and their progression to death leaves me with the worse feeling. 

I am thinking that the Candida that was identified was not superficial , but invasive and maybe went systemic in their system, where Medistatin (Nystatin) would be of little use and they would have needed to be put on a systemic anti-fungal like Fluconozole. Perhaps you could raise this possibility with your vet. The occasional problem with doing this, at least in my experience, is that sometimes vets are reluctant to admit they just may have missed something or made a wrong diagnosis and not always give weight to valid points and concerns later brought forth. 

A few things I would do right now is first keep a very close eye on Nancy, if she looks in any why like she is not resolving or her condition gets a little worse, than better, I would ask the vet to put her on a systemic anti-fungal, even if they may not feel it is necessary as a precaution. Something I would also personally do if throw away any seed that may be left from the bag they were being feed from. I know we gave the seeds a provisional clean pass, but now with Amy's death, to me it's cheap peace of mind. I know it's cold out, but I would make a 1:9 bleach water solution in a 5 gallon bucket and disinfect all food and water dishes at the loft. I would use a straw broom to dip into this and sweep this solution over as much of the loft and a smaller one and a rag to wipe perches nest boxes and so on, of course being mindful of the fumes.

This guys can bring such joy and also sometimes break our hearts, through no fault of their own, it never ever gets easy losing one, especially when there seemed time to do something and we were not able to pull them through.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thank you, Karyn, for sharing your thoughts about this situation. I've been thinking about it too...

I'm thinking that these several birds may have had some "latent" issues that were brought to a head by the stress of the direct dose of ivermectin -- the chemical itself, and the frazzlement of being caught & dosed, and a Strange Person in the loft abetting me in this, though said person took care of them when I was on vacation last summer -- they are not much accustomed to being handled, though I'm planning to change that.

The bag of seed they were eating when I first noticed small strange things is long eaten; and that bag was not from my regular store, and not the mix they've been eating since August, though it was produced by the same company.
I opened a new bag (from my usual store) the day before I brought Amy, Rosa, and Dolly into the house last week (Nancy was already in the house for a few days), and the 'new' bag is the seed that I taste-tested and found nothing 'off.' To my embarrassment, I had noticed Amy & Rosa acting a little off the day after Thanksgiving, and let them slide. I hadn't seen Dolly acting weird or looking 'off' until the day I brought her in, so I guess I caught her early. 

Nancy and Dolly (Amy's sisters) are both in the house and seem to be doing fine. 
They are making very presentable droppings (I would have photo'd and posted them this morning, but the morning didn't turn out as planned).
They are eating the regular seed mix sans peas eagerly, and I hear them exercising their wings in the cage from time to time through the day. 
They had tubed doses of medistatin when they first came in, and their seed dusted with it since then. 
They also had a few days' doses of metronidazole, since I didn't like the look of the urates the first day.
I'm planning to let them try a few peas in the seed mix tomorrow, and if I like their posture, droppings, and general demeanor at the end of the week, let them go back to the loft (I'm waiting for this cold snap to pass; it's really been bitter and windy). Dolly has a mate waiting for her there...

At the loft, everybody is looking good in spite of the cold weather... and the droppings are looking good too. 
Today I gave the flock wormout gel for their follow-up, since I was not able to direct dose everybody in the correct time-frame, on account of the emergencies. 

The birds are still at Lou's loft; the cold weather is slowing us down getting ours ready for them.
My main concern about bleaching the loft is that I can't fit all the birds into that aviary at once, to get them out of the vicinity of possible bleach fumes.
What I've been using instead, for disinfection, has been white vinegar and peroxide in succession, since they aren't a breathing hazard.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I am glad to hear that both Nancy and Dolly are doing well and barring any unforeseen circumstances will be back in the loft before long. I myself have never heard of Ivermectin exacerbating any existing issue in this way, on the top of the fact you were using .50% strength and dosing at about at half strength most people give using the 1%, including myself, use. I guess anything is possible, but it just does not strike me as the cause of their ills.

I think the vinegar and peroxide sound like a good idea, and I also think that the 1:9 could be used judiciously to wipe with and should be what you use to rinse and disinfect the seed and water dishes.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Karyn,

Yes, I have always used the 1:9 bleach solution for cleaning drinkers, feeders, nest bowls, dummy eggs, etc. since I can take those away from the birds to do it. 

There was a thread here in the past year where the white vinegar & peroxide were discussed... since I found out about that combination, I've been using it, since I can't move my birds around where they are... when they get to my own loft, the aviary will be big enough to lock them out there for major cleanups inside.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



I am so sorry to hear this news today.


I do not think the Ivermectin would have bothered them.


The stress of new people, being handled, and so on, while meaninful to them in poassing, I do not see it as being likely a heavy enough matter for these events to have arisen from.


I think there is possibly a Virus, or some unusual Bacterial or - as Karyn is considering - fungal issue.


Systemic Fugal/Candida c-o-u-l-d be the culprit, as could Aspirgiloosis if systemic or non respiratory.


This might one of those occasions where a Necropsy would be worth considering.


Your Vet sounded quite bright and insightful and caring...I would not myself tend to feel they had let you down or in all fairness, missed anything weithin the scope of what would have been able to be seen or deetermined with what there has been to go on.


I can not recall anything you, we, or the Vet missed, as far as reasoned analysis, and noting what there was to go on.



Phil
L v


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I think Dolly and Nancy are getting bored in the hospital cage; they eat like little pigs, prance about from time to time (and kick the droppings everywhere ).

Here are their evening droppings; I can't tell whose are whose...









I've introduced a small proportion of the larger peas back into their seed mix, to see how they do with them... and they are leaving the peas in the dish!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin,


Poops are lookin' pretty good there...


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Poops are lookin' pretty good there...


Yes, what a relief! 

It's still extremely cold here, but is supposed to be warmer tomorrow through Sunday night. I'm thinking that Friday could be a good time to take them back out to the loft, with a few days to get used to a cold, but not frigid environment, before the next cold snap that's due early next week. 

I'd hate winter, except it's so much easier to clean up frozen droppings!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good, agree the poops are looking pretty decent.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I took Nancy and Dolly back to the loft at lunchtime today.
Rusty and Dolly are very happy to see each other, and have claimed the next box that used to be Velvet & Lena's. 
I don't expect this to be a problem, because I think Velvet & Lena will be going directly into my loft, and not back down to the old one, when they are ready to leave the "hospital."

After I fed them, I noticed Nancy doing the neck thing, so I brought her back into the house. 
She's been fine inside, has been eating, drinking, and making appropriate droppings.
I'm feeding these indoor birds the same stuff as at the loft... so I don't really know why Nancy did that, but I'm keeping her under observation for a few more days.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin,


'Neck Thing' - more details?


Images of fresh poops ( closer up the better ).



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, please have a good look and smell in her mouth and throat area. Any off odors or phlegm? Please keep a close eye on Dolly for a while still as well.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here are some of Nancy's overnight droppings... not sure why they're greener, unless it's because I gave her a little dish of grit (which she hadn't had for a while)...









Nancy's mouth and throat look clear, no phlegm, and no odors.
She's getting 50mg of metronidazole daily for the past few days, since I wasn't thrilled with the texture of the urates the other day.

@Phil - the "neck thing" is when they lengthen their neck and wiggle their head, as in the "walk like an egyptian" dance. It really looks weird when their crops are full. But when Nancy did it, her crop didn't seem so full, but she didn't look real comfortable, so I brought her into the house.

I also saw Dolly stand up tall and make her neck long, but she immediately commenced to lobster-tail dance with Rusty (her mate), and did not look uncomfortable over the next half hour or so.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Droppings don't look too bad, nothing popping out at me causing my brain to itch, so let's keep things as they are. I will say, there is still something itching my brain about all of these birds, especially Rosa and Amy, there is something I think being missed here that it seems both Nancy and Dolly were able to fight off, where Rosa and Amy were not, but they both need close monitoring for I would say the next 4 weeks.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm not sure Amy and Rosa were plagued by the same thing, but they both got impacted crops. 
We know Amy had an infection of Candida, but don't really know what caused Rosa's crop problem, since the vet said he couldn't do an analysis since I'd given her meds within a few hours of the visit. There was also that interesting leatherlike object that came out of her crop when it was flushed. I wish I'd had my camera with me, so I could have posted a pic of it. 
Both had been on their nests until I caught them standing like penguins and vomiting. 
On their nests Amy & Rosa were making the usual giant hen droppings, similar to the other hens. Dolly was also on a nest, and Nancy doesn't have a mate yet.

I saw Nancy actually vomit seeds she'd eaten about a half hour after the ivermectin, and two days later she stood like a penguin once in a while (but not as frequently as Amy or Rosa). Having seen her vomit was the reason I brought her in for observation.

I never saw Dolly vomit, but she stood like a penguin occasionally, but not as often as Nancy, and and did the neck-crop-wiggle like things were stuck. 

I've seen other birds do the neck-crop-wiggle, once or twice, but they weren't sick, and didn't become sick, so it didn't make a huge impression except when it was accompanied by vomiting. 

_I can't think of anything I've used or done differently in the past month or so_... except for that one sack of feed that I had to get at a different place, they've been eating the same thing since August. I did buy a new bag of safflower seeds, but only give them as treats once in a while, not every day. The day I first noticed the problems, I had not given them safflower seed as treats for more than a week.

They have also had the same grit mixture (something Lou had instructed Bert to mix together - red & white grit, oyster shell, and charcoal) since I've been there, and it's available to them all the time. I don't have much of the mix left, but have unopened sacks of red grit, and white with oyster shell. 
Other flyers in the club have recommended rinsing the white on a clean screen and letting it dry, "because it's too salty and gives them wet droppings."


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, it occurred to me I did not mention, in your other thread on Velvet, that the bird I talked about, with the persistent infection that was resistant to Baytril, TMS and Doxycycline, that the infection was in the crop. Now not to reach too far, but it occurred to me that it might be worth mentioning to your vet, to draw her a bigger picture, that Velvet currently has an infection that seems so far to be resistant to Baytril, Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Doxycycline and then you had your hens that did not respond well to treatment with these same drugs either and succumbed to their illness. Ask her if it could be possible if they all could have an infection with a common resistant staph infection. I know they found yeast, but many times yeast can be secondary to a primary bacterial infection. Still have not ruled out the seeds, but like I say, there is something that went on here that has not been full nailed down.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Actually, Velvet's eye had responded to the TMS (Sulfatrim) and to wearing the collar... (check Velvet's thread, posts in the 40's) but I had quit making him wear the collar since he hated it so much and was not eating enough, and it seems scratching introduced more complications...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Actually, Velvet's eye had responded to the TMS (Sulfatrim) and to wearing the collar... (check Velvet's thread, posts in the 40's) but I had quit making him wear the collar since he hated it so much and was not eating enough, and it seems scratching introduced more complications...


Robin, with antibiotics, there are number of categories an antibiotic may fall into for its efficacy against a particular bacteria. The bacteria in question are sensitive to it, intermediate to it, or are resistant to it. Two of the categories are pretty well self-explanatory, sensitive - the med will work against that bacteria and resistant - the med will not work against the bacteria. 

The one that we are concerned with, in regards to the TMS I think, is the middle category called intermediate, where the bacteria in question is somewhat sensitive to it. Meaning some members of the infecting bacteria are sensitive to it, so you get the impression the antibiotic selected for treatment seems to be working (TMS), but then other members in the bacteria population are genuinely resistant to it, so the med in question (TMS) fails in its job to clear/cure the infection and the infection may start to worsen again. When this happens there is a need to find antibiotic that the bacteria are sensitive to, and not one from the other two categories again, intermediate and resistant so the infection can be effectively treated and cured.

Many times when we select a good broad-spectrum antibiotic, like Baytril or TMS for treatment (sometimes in combination with another antibiotic and dosing has to be correct of course, whether stand alone or in combo), the response is what we want, the bacteria are sensitive and the infection is treated and cured, but sometimes you run into instances where a bacteria is sensitive to only a few select antibiotics and most times this has to be determined through culture and sensitivity testing so proper treatment can commence. I think it was more than just not wearing the collar, if you remember with the TMS, the infection did responded right away, but then it plateaued, and then started to look worse, indications that TMS was intermediate, IMHO, to the infecting bacteria.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Update: 

Dolly has been out in the loft since the weekend and seems to be doing fine.
She and Rusty are courting and have chosen a different nest box than before...

Nancy is still in the house, because when I took her down to the loft along with Dolly, saw her looking uncomfortable after eating, so I brought her back in. 
I think she's fine now; she has been making good droppings and exercising her wings in the cage, but the nights have been so cold that I didn't want her having that extra stress; I'm waiting for it to warm up a little (like overnight lows above 20 instead of single digits).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Glad they seems to be getting back to normal, I also think it's a good idea to keep Nancy in until things warm up a touch.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nancy went back to the loft yesterday (Saturday) and seems to be doing fine. 
Today she stood on my back for a while as I was scraping the floor, and when I put the seed out, ate eagerly, but not frantically, and gave no appearance of discomfort after eating.

Several of the cockbirds have been dancing for her, but so far she hasn't favored anyone in particular. I was hoping she'd pair up with Swan, but she seems to particularly dislike him; pecks at him when he passes near her, just on his way by... poor guy, he never even gets a chance to dance for her.


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