# Need urgent help in Montreal, QC



## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

HI everyone,

I am new here because this morning I found an injured pigeon.
I am looking for experienced pigeon people in Montreal, QC, Canada.

Most likely, a parked car backed into this pigeon: his right leg is damaged, twisted out of alignment. His left leg is injured, but he can move it. 
He seems unable to move his right leg.

Is there anyone in Montreal, QC who has experience with pigeons?

I spoke to one rehabber lady, but she was firm stating that if it proves to be a NR, she would euthanize him.
But, maybe, this pigeon could become a good NR.

So, please help!

The first two photos of his better left leg - but it is injured, too, although, not as badly as his right leg.

The last pic (the lighting is off) is his bad leg - some fingers are black, so I guess, they are dead. They are cooler to the touch, too.


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

One more pic of him in a box - you can see how twisted his right leg is.
He can fold his left leg underneath himself, but he cannot bring this right leg underneath.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hello and thanks for caring !!! You really will need to take your friend to an Avian vet, as opposed to a wildlife rehabber (since, as you learned, they will likely just kill the bird). Call some avian vets and make sure they will treat Pigeons.

You will likely have to pay as you would pay for treating a pet bird. But short of that, I have no suggestions. That's a serious injury, and really, the legs need to be examined and set by a professional. In most instances, a Pigeon CAN regain walking ability after the legs are splinted and mended....thus can be released back into the Feral world. But orthopedic injuries are really best dealt with by a professional. Montreal is a major city, I am sure there are Avian practitioners around.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Here you go...last on the list is in Montreal...call them:

http://www.pigeonangels.com/t208-matilda-s-list-canada

In the meantime, keep your friend in a very warm and quiet environment..am talking like 24 degrees C/75 degrees F. Also, provide some food and see if he/she is willing to eat any.

You are a Squirrel person !...would you happen to have any Metacam (Meloxicam) on hand ?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

she must be out for the day, on tsb she said she didn't have any meds


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Thank you for the links!
I was able to see a vet from that link today.

So, here it is:

__________________________
Ok,

So here it is:

1. At first, the vet looked at his legs and wing and said that the injuries were very serious and there was nothing we could really do.
He said that the right wing was broken, almost completely detached.
The right leg has multiple fractures in tibia (he even said something like 6-7 breaks in there, and given that a bird's tibia is such a fragile tiny thing, that tibia is pretty much crushed).

He went on to say that for the optimum recovery an extensive surgery would be needed, and maybe, putting a metal pin in there to replace the crushed tibia (that's how bad it was he said). And even then, there was very little chance he could fly and live in the wild again.

He also looked at the left - better leg - and it turned out to be broken, too. Not as bad as the right leg, but broken nonetheless.
It looked like it is broken at the "ankle" or whatever bird's equivalent of an ankle is. But tibia and femur must be fine since he could bring that leg underneath.

So, the injuries are extensive and very serious, just as I was afraid they were.
I started crying. This pigeon so far has been very sweet. Again, maybe, I am misinterpreting it, but the whole time when I was handling it, it never tried to peck or bite me. My assumption is that birds would try to bite just like wild mammals do. But again, I don't know.
Then, when the vet was examining it, it didn't try to bite or peck until the vet started really touching its worst leg.

I guess, because I was crying the vet said he would gas him and take a better look.
So, I waited and I thought that he would just come and just confirm his initial grim diagnosis.

But he came back with the pigeon, still a bit under the gas, but he stabilized him. What he did is he wrapped the pigeon's legs in a fixed position and wrapped the pigeon so that the pigeon cannot move its wings (I will post pics).
He said that the pigeon would have to stay like that for two weeks.
In two weeks he will remove the bandages/wrapping and see how much recovery there is.
In the meantime, I will have to feed the pigeon and clean its poop (i need detailed instructions on those things).

The vet also gave him a shot of Abs and told me to come back once a week for an injection. The pigeon will need a total of 6 injections once per week (that is if it shows some promising recovery after two weeks of being immobilized).

The vet agreed with me to give him a chance at a non-releasable life, because you can only euthanize once.

So, yes, the pigeon is still here and has a slight chance.
But everything will depend on how promising its progress will be after two weeks. Will it be able to walk at least?
The vet said that it is definite that it won't be able to fly again because of the broken wing.

_*So, my question is: can a pigeon be content if it cannot fly anymore?...
Is there a chance that after having a broken wing, it could fly at least within a room, or hop-fly from place to place?...
I just cannot imagine that a bird that cannot fly can be happy and content. Especially, a wild bird.
Which means I am still torn what the right thing to do would be in this situation.*_

Now,
1) What is the best way to clean him?... since he cannot move, I will have to clean his poop.
Do I just clean him with a wet cloth/paper towel?
Can I put his bottom in water?

2) The vet gave me some pellets. He said it was a nutritionally complete food for birds. I will need to crush a few pellets and make a pasty consistency and feed with a syringe.
What is the technique of feeding a pigeon with a syringe?
Do they aspirate like squirrels?
Do I have to use 1cc syringes only or can I use a larger one?
How do I "insert" the syringe?
How do I help him drink? - with a syringe, too? How?

3)I am thinking of setting him up in such a way for the next two weeks, as to allow him to see me and what's going on in the room. Is that ok?

He is completely immobilized right now.
when I am here, he can "entertain" himself by watching me, my computer screen etc (am I assuming too much here?).
But what else, if anything, is there that could keep him entertained?... when I am in school, he will just be sitting here in one spot all bandaged and wrapped.

4) Also, the vet told me to come for weekly ABs injection for the next 6 weeks (that is if he shows significant improvement after 2 weeks of being bandaged).
The vet said that no pain meds were needed, because eventually, through being bandaged like that, his legs will feel kind of numb and he won't feel the pain anymore.

So, this is the story.

I will post pics later.
--------------------
*So far, based on what I've written here, what are you thoughts and suggestions?*
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!


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## DeeDee's Mom (Dec 17, 2011)

You are such a good person! That pigeon is very lucky you found him/her. 

I don't know if a pigeon can be completely happy if they can't fly, but if it gets enough attention from you, perhaps it can. I know our ringneck, DeeDee, would much rather be around us than anywhere else, and he spends a lot of his time hopping from the back of my chair onto my head, then with a flap or two, onto my desk, then "running" up my arm to the back of the chair. When he visits my husband, he'll sit on his monitor, or on his shoulder for, literally hours, and he likes to cuddle up and sleep on hubby's tummy. He's not that "patient" when he's with me. With me, he's hyper and hopping--LOL. But none of that really requires much flying.

So, perhaps if your pigeon can eventually walk okay, he'll be fine. If he can kind of "flutter" a bit, even better. At least it would be easier for YOU to keep track of where he poops!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

1) What is the best way to clean him?... since he cannot move, I will have to clean his poop.
Do I just clean him with a wet cloth/paper towel?
Can I put his bottom in water?

You can wipe the bottom with a wet tissue or cloth. The same can be done for the body-the neck, under the wings, lower part of the body once in two weeks. Yet I am not sure whether a bird will be physically all right if it cannot move at all...

2) The vet gave me some pellets. He said it was a nutritionally complete food for birds. I will need to crush a few pellets and make a pasty consistency and feed with a syringe.
What is the technique of feeding a pigeon with a syringe?
Do they aspirate like squirrels?
Do I have to use 1cc syringes only or can I use a larger one?
How do I "insert" the syringe?
How do I help him drink? - with a syringe, too? How?

Try keeping a bowl of water near to him, if he does not show any effort to drink, dip the head upto the rim of the beak in to the bowl of water. Grown up pigeons can be fed easily with syringe (without needle). Just push the syringe slightly into the throat slightly past the wind pipe and slowly inject the content. You can also try giving the pigeon pellets soaked in water if it of the size of a pea. 

3)I am thinking of setting him up in such a way for the next two weeks, as to allow him to see me and what's going on in the room. Is that ok?

He is completely immobilized right now.
when I am here, he can "entertain" himself by watching me, my computer screen etc (am I assuming too much here?).
But what else, if anything, is there that could keep him entertained?... when I am in school, he will just be sitting here in one spot all bandaged and wrapped.

While you are away, may be you can place him in a well secure cage/box close to a window or something from where he can see the outside. Behind a closed glass window should be fine. Predators like cat should have chance to come near the cage and also a place where there is no too much sun.

4) Also, the vet told me to come for weekly ABs injection for the next 6 weeks (that is if he shows significant improvement after 2 weeks of being bandaged).
The vet said that no pain meds were needed, because eventually, through being bandaged like that, his legs will feel kind of numb and he won't feel the pain anymore.

If the vet is of the opinion that the pigeon can do without pain medicines, let it be


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Nice job, both you and the vet have done well for the Pigeon. You have at least given him/her a chance.

A few comments:

1) syringe feeding...I am wondering why this is necessary. This looks to be an adult or at least an old adolescent. if the pellets are the size of,say, parrot pellets (maybe like the size of a baby aspirin or so) the Pigeon can swallow 'em in one gulp just fine.

You just need to hold him still, gently open the mouth with one hand, and place the pellet toward the back of the mouth (but not all the way into the throat) and close the mouth, perhaps massaging under her chin for just a second. She should swallow. If the pellet is bigger, say the size of an adult aspirin....cut it in half and do the same. You can also do this with thawed, defrosted peas warmed to lukewarm...very nutritious for Pigeons and they also provide hydration. If she is eating some on her own, maybe augment her diet with the pellets and around a dozen peas per day.

2) Pain...well...I wholeheartedly disagree. I think that in an instance such as this, metacam (meloxicam) is a must. With broken bones and splints/wraps...I have NEVER had an avian vet NOT prescribe Metacam. Dunno if you wanna ask him about that or not, I would be inclined to. In the least, he is gonna be immobilized for so long, and Metacam really takes the edge off of pain....it's quite strong and safe.....

3) Also, ask if it is OK to give the supplement Neocalglucon (also called Calcium Glubonate or Calciquid). It is a great bone-injury supplement, easy to administer in liquid form. It is OTC and can usually be ordered online, although the vet might have some available.

4) He is on antibiotics also, yes ????????

Yup...it's gonna be a hella boring life for the guy for a couple of weeks. I had to do that once with a wing/leg injured friend of mine...and it s#cked, period. Literally, for 2 weeks, he got some interaction with me at feeding and medicating time, but other than that...I could do nothing other than place him back in his comfy cage. It was probably interminably boring for him...BUT...he got thru it and eventually was released back to his Feral life.

I agree that it does sound like that a release here is incredibly unlikely. I think that the doc (and you) are right in giving your buddy a chance to at least be able to stabilize the injured joints and see what kind of quality of life he/she will have. I know plenty o' folks with grounded, rehabbed Pigeons and their lives can be quite happy and full.

Bless you and I am pulling for your pal !


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

fingers crossed! I really hope he comes out o.k.! Best wishes!!!!!!!!!!


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, pigeons too can get water or food into their airways and that can be very dangerous.

So I agree that, rather than feeding him with a syringe, you should just pop the pellets into his mouth, maybe soaked a little in water. You can also feed him frozen corn and peas, thawed in warm water, although the pellets seem to be a more complete and balanced diet for a pigeon.

In nature young pigeons don't open their beaks to be fed by their parents like other birds do, but rather the parents open their beaks and the babies suck from there, so no matter how you choose to feed, you may find that a pigeon (baby or adult) doesn't like it when you try to open its beak.

If there's enough water in the food you give him, he won't need water separately, again to avoid the danger of aspiration, if using a syringe. Pigeons don't usually drink that much water, even when eating dry food. 

Anyway, he may be able to drink by himself, so try to dip his beak in a water bowl as already suggested, but do not let the nostrils go into the water too. 

The same goes with food, he may be able to eat by himself, with a little help. I noticed that when popping seeds into a baby pigeon's beak, he will eventually try to peck the seeds from my hand.

He may be too scared or too sick for that to actually work now, but it's worth a try.


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Thank you ALL SO-O-O much!

I am taking all this info in, so please bear with me if I don't sound like it.

So, here is the today's update:

Also, those are pics of his leg color - the pic color is a bit too intense, it's not as bright pink as it looks in the pic, but close.

Also, got pics of his beak.

If you can approximate his/her age that would be great!
And if you could determine its sex that would be nice, too.

I put those pellets and water - please see if that's an ok set up for now.
When I poured the water, he started kind of splashing it with his face. He didn't look like he was drinking it, more just splashing it.

I don't know how to open his beak. I tried, but looks like he was trying to "clench" it and would not let me open.

I decided to leave him in the box, thinking that, maybe, he will eat when I am not looking. And I think, I heard a crunch, like he was trying to eat a pellet or two. But when I checked it didn't look like he ate a lot, maybe, just some.

I wanted to try pellets first, instead of giving him corn and peas, so that he won't get picky. Should I put some cockatiel seed along with the pellets?


As I was afraid, some of his poop is stuck on his bottom feathers and one paw. I tried to wash it off with a wet papertowel, but it didn't work very well.
And yes, if I dip him in water, the bandage will get wet, too.

Also, when i tried to wash that old poop, he started wriggling, probably, doing his WING FU. So, I put him back.

As for fingers, the vet said that it's just dirt.
Again, I do not try to wash that dirt off right now because he must still be scared.

Yes, the vet gave him an AB shot. Now I will be coming once a week for an antibiotic shot. And like that for 6 weeks (That is if he shows promising improvement after 2 weeks of immobility - I really hope and pray, because the vet said that if after 2 weeks he does not show progress, euthanasia might be the humane way to go... I do not want to think about what's going to happen after 2 weeks... for now, he is here and, hopefully, healing.

Jay,
where do I find that Neocalglucon?... i asked at the pharmacy and at a health food store, but they had no clue.
is that an animal or human supplement?
I doubt the vet has it, otherwise he would have offered it.
I could call and ask anyway, of course.
But still, doubt.

THANK YOU ALL! 
PLEASE KEEP SUGGESTIONS COMING!

IF you see that I am doing something wrong in the pics - please tell me so.

I need to learn all this bird stuff, never ever handled a bird.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. Neocalglucon can be ordered online pretty easily...search for it by all of the names I noted above...'neocalglucon' is a brand name, one of several....'calcionate syrup' is another common name...you can get it even on eBay, I think. No prescription. Reptile owners use it quite a bit, also (bird-reptile thang and all that) so it's pretty easy to get online....

Next vet shot, ask him/her if they can prescribe some metacam, maybe even just 4 or 5 days worth....just for pain relief.

So are those pellets soaked in the photo...so they are smaller when dry ? If so, and they are smaller, you should be able to handfeed 'em dry.

To open beak: cradle him/her on your lap in one arm, with the hand of that arm holding the head still with your thumb and forefinger. With the free hand, gently pry open the beak with your fingers and slip the morsel of food into the middle of the mouth, then close the beak, tilt it up, and give a gentle rub under the 'chin'. They usually swallow automatically. Yes, he/she will resist opening somewhat, but just be firm and gentle at the same time.

He/she looks to be an adolescent....not an adult. Possibly relatively newly fledged.

If the vent area gets really poopy...you may need to trim back some of the feathers around there, so they aren't covering the area as much.


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

OK, will look for that cal. supplement online, hopefully, it is available to ship to Canada.

So, for today:

1. Just finished the "popping." He didn't make it easy. 
Sometimes, I was able to put the pea/corn/piece of soaked pellet "behind" his beak, where his head starts; other times, I was able to put it deep into his beak, under his "nose" part and he would swallow it himself.

2. I tried feeling the crop, but this time I didn't feel anything: everything feels soft and mushy, and because he is so bandaged up, it's hard to tell whether the crop got bigger, or it's just that he is all bundled up like that.
But at least, now I know what to keep looking for.

3. I tried cleaning his poop and looks like one of the bandages - the leg that's bad - is really "poopy." There is no way i can clean it because that would mean soaking the bandage.
He was VERY upset when I started the cleaning

4. My biggest concern is his bad leg.
While I was cleaning him, he was kicking with his better leg, keeping it under him; he did not move the bad leg at all. 
Even his toes on his bad leg didn't seem to have any feeling in them.
What if his nerves are damaged?...
What if this is not just the broken bone?...
What if he can never use that leg again?...

5. I popped 5 peas and 5 corn kernels and about 5-10 broken and soaked pieces of pellets. 
How often should I "pop"? 
My schedule is inconsistent: some days I come back early, but there are two days when I don't come back till after 4pm. And I am always rushing in the morning. 
So, the popping won't be consistent from day to day. Is that ok?
I put seeds next to him and he pecks on them periodically throughout the day.


7. Also, I have got not a certain amount of pellet mush - I thought of making some balls out of it, but not sure what to use to thicken it (it's really mushy right now). Could I use some bread to make it all stick together?


Right now he is resting from all this morning trauma of me opening his mouth and inserting food, and then cleaning.

But I am really, really, really, really worried about that bad leg...
Even if the bone grows, if there is nerve damage, he won't be able to use it...
__________________


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

red_squirrel said:


> ......_*So, my question is: can a pigeon be content if it cannot fly anymore?...
> Is there a chance that after having a broken wing, it could fly at least within a room, or hop-fly from place to place?...
> I just cannot imagine that a bird that cannot fly can be happy and content. Especially, a wild bird.
> Which means I am still torn what the right thing to do would be in this situation.*_
> ...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

red_squirrel said:


> 5. *I popped 5 peas and 5 corn kernels and about 5-10 broken and soaked pieces of pellets.
> How often should I "pop"? *
> My schedule is inconsistent: some days I come back early, but there are two days when I don't come back till after 4pm. And I am always rushing in the morning.
> So, the popping won't be consistent from day to day. Is that ok?
> ...




To give you an idea of how much he should be eating, if he is hardly eating any seed on his own, he should be getting about 40 to 50 peas and corn with each feeding. You could do this 2 or 3 times a day. Once in the morning, when you get home, and maybe before bedtime if his crop has emptied. Only feed if it has emptied.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Except if the pellets are involved, you wouldn't need anywhere near 40-50 veggies per feeding.

...if you can manage around 6 or 7 pellets along with the veggies,you only need about 15 veggie morsels per feeding.

This is to say, if you do a combo of pellets and veggies, try 6 pellets and 12-15 veggies per feeding.

...if only pellets, try about 10-12 per feeding.

...if only veggies, try 30+ per feeding.

IMHO, "pellet mush"...forget about handfeeding that stuff. Feed dry pellets. It's safer. If they are the size of a corn kernel, it'll go down OK. If larger, shave them down to kernel size. It is actually trickier to handfeed mushy pellets.

She/he can get hydration from the veggies and beak-dipping in water.

Regarding the bad leg...yes, it may in the end be a goner...but as Quazar says, we dunno. With all that has happened, and the wrap, and the meds...during the healing period he may regain some use and feeling in that leg. In a worst-case scenario, a Pigeon can operate one-legged. But that is jumping ahead.

I have had rescues come out of casts and for the first few days I was panicked because they seemed to regain almost no use of the injured leg...yet as the days went along, they did start using it again. Too early to tell. The great news is that the 'good' leg is showing some strength !


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Thank you, Quazar, Jay3 and Jaye, for giving me some hope...

I was afraid that if he could not regain the use of the right leg and if he could not fly, that he would have no life... and I only have had him for 3 days, but I cannot even imagine putting him down... unless, of course, that's the best thing for him...
But if you think that a one-legged pigeon can have a good life - I will hold on to this.

Someone helped me dose ibuprofen and I gave it to him 4 hours ago, and, my guess is that it's working because he has become even more expressive about his displeasure at me holding him.
I just took him out to clean his poop and before I even could grab him he started getting all upset, trying to do the "wing fu" but being unable because he is all bandaged up.
So, I assume that he has become more active due to the pain being alleviated. 

Ok, will do with the pellets and veggies that way.
The vet told me that these pellets are complete nutrition and if he eats them, he won't need anything else.
So, I am thinking following your instructions and giving him about 10 pellets per meal + veggies according to your proportions.

*THANK YOU ALL!*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Even if he can't fly, he may be able to flutter a little ways. Would be easier if he could fly, of course. But if he can't, he can still get around. You don't know yet how much he will be able to use the leg. He may be able to use it some, even if not perfect. Nobodies perfect!
Amazing how these guys can make do.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yeah the pellets are probably enuff, it's just that the peas are good at adding weight and also providing some hydration...which is why it's such a popular choice to feed...


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Thank you, Jays ,

Yes, I will add some peas and corn to pellets.

My next question is how long on average does it usually take for the crop to empty?...
I am still learning how to feel the crop, but I still have a hard time telling if it is full or not. I know that you can feel the food in there, and I kind of feel something, but I don't know whether I am feeling the food or his bones/muscles.
And now, that he is all bandaged, it's hard to tell just by looking.

I will keep feeling the crop, but it would help to know how long it might take for the crop to empty if I give him about 6-1o pellets and 10-15 peas corn kernels?


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

ok,

so for breakfast at 9am he had 10 peas/corn + 10 pellets (broken up);
for lunch about 3-4pm he had another 10 peas/corn + 10 pellets (broken up).

I always dip a pellet piece in water before giving him.

_How long will it take for crop to empty with a meal like above?

Given the two meals above, what will be a good dinner/supper?...Same? Or just 20 pcs of peas/corn?_

Also, again - tried to feel his crop, but not sure what I am feeling. Feels like his little breastplate bones or something. At one point, I think I felt like something was sort of rolling in there - I guess, that's food?

My other question: 
_*How do I tell if he aspirated?...
He often splashes water, looks like he is not so much drinking, as just dipping his beak and splashing it around.*_

_Also, since I dip pellet pieces in water, my fingers get wet and I touch his beak. I try to dry my fingers on a tissue, but still, often get his beak wet and aren't there nostrils?... so I am worried that he will inhale water.
_
Also, as I was popping food today, he started ducking his head, as if he didn't want anymore. So, I thought, that maybe, his crop is full and he is not hungry.
BUT
then, he started trying to peck pellet crumbs that were on the towel, in which he was wrapped for feeding. So, I assumed that meant that he was still hungry, so I kept on feeding. Is that a correct assumption?
_How do I know when he does not want to be fed?_

_*In addition to the aspiration, what are other signs I need to be on look out for?... In case, he starts feeling unwell?...
I just want to be prepared and catch it early.*_

Another thing: apparently, he is feeling a bit better, because he is trying to move around, pushing with the better leg. A few times he kept moving forward and fell into the container with the seed.

_*If you look at one of my previous pics with the set up, you will see that water container and seed container are in front of him to easy reaching.
But now, that he tries to move around, I am worried that he might fall into a water container and will fall face down and will just drown that way by inhaling all that water.
So, was wondering if it would be ok to remove water while I am not here?*_

I will also look for a smaller dish, too, as was suggested on tsb.

Now, that I have been popping, he stopped pecking the seed. Never heard him peck it. Should I still keep it there?


THANK YOU!


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

ok,

I am concerned now.

So, I found him on Thursday.
Brought to the vet on Friday - that' when he got all bandaged up and bedridden.
On Sat. he was still kind of quiet and that's when i gave him ibuprofen for pain.
On Sat he started getting more active, scratching in the box etc.
On Monday he tried to be even more active - pushing with his better leg, trying to move around, to move out of his 'tucked in" spot. I constantly had to pick him up and reposition.

BUT
yesterday, he got less active. Throughout the day he would go from being perky for a few minutes, trying to move around to being really, really quiet and semi-sleepy. 
I thought that overfed him yesterday and hence, he was so sleepy.
Then, I got worried because it was not like him and rushed to the vet.

of course, at the vet he was alert and a bit agitated.
The vet said he looked fine. When I asked why he might have been kind of sleepy before, the vet just shrugged his shoulders and said that it could be something unimportant.

So, we came back, and again - he would be all active for a few minutes, and sleepy and quite after that. 
Since MOn I started stroking his little head and he would close his eyes and relax. So, I did the same thing yesterday, too.

Today he is going through the same pattern of activity: perky for a few minutes and then, very quiet sleepy, not moving anywhere.

I continue to force feed him and, of course, he hates it.

I also try to hold him burritoed and stroke him.

_So, my question is:

is this activity pattern - of a few minute-perkingness and then sleepiness/quietness - something to be concerned with?

Is he getting sick and i don't know it?

Or, did he stop crawling around because he is not afraid of me anymore and does not feel like he has to run away from me?
_
I did check his mouth (against his wish) and I didn't see anything "cheesy" inside.
I listen to his breath and he does not sound like he is clicking.
Although, sometimes, I hear some kind of sounds - for instance, when I force feeding him, sometimes he sounds like he is snorting or something. 
But most of the time his breath is soundless.
No open mouth breathing.
No gasping
No labored breathing of any kind.

He tries to peck at seeds and dips his beak in water. 

But I am just worried about him getting so quiet.
I force-fed him Sun and MOn and then on Tuesday he got "quieter", so again, I am trying to find a "positive" explanation that, maybe, by Tuesday he realized that I wasn't going to eat him and actually feeding him, so he just relaxed more?

Do pigeons nap during the day?

Gosh, I am so worried.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Seems if you went to a vet they would have taken a sample of droppings or crop or something to check. Be careful when you feed that you don't aspirate him. Did they not check anything?

I wouldn't wrap him up to stroke him, as he is wild and that would just scare him. Never feed a bird again until the crop empties. If you add new food to old, you can make him very sick. He could even die.


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Seems if you went to a vet they would have taken a sample of droppings or crop or something to check. Be careful when you feed that you don't aspirate him. Did they not check anything?


no, they didn't.
I explained to them why I was concerned, and the vet said it should not be anything serious because he looked good overall.

But I AM concerned still and even more. 

My next vet appointment is on Friday and I will ask for those tests.
It's just that I think this vet does not have much experience with pigeons, but it's the only vet I could find here who would see a pigeon. And overall, this vet was nice and accommodating.

But what might be causing this?...
You think this might be parasites?
What would the poop look like if this was parasites?... his poop looks more or less normal to me, like what I see outside. Not too hard, not liquidy, same colour as I see in outside birds.

What can they find in the crop?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You bring a bird to a vet who you say isn't acting right, and they don't do or test anything?


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> You bring a bird to a vet who you say isn't acting right, and they don't do or test anything?


well, maybe, because when we got to the vet, he was active, alert, perky, bright eyed, so the vet thought that reduced activity wasn't anything serious.

I am going there on Friday again... for an ABs injection


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Mmmmm....He is still on _daily_ antibiotic, right ? I understand the shots every few days...but there is a daily oral, too...isn't there ? I would think there needs to be....

I would consider taking him on Thursday... and not waiting until Friday....

You are used to healing mammals. Birds are a different thing altogether. They do not 'fight off' illness the way a mammal can. When they show symptoms....those symptoms usually won't just disappear later on. Also, eating doesn't make a bird sleepy, typically.

I agree with Jay3...if one brings a bird in for a followup due to decrease in activity level...a vet has gotta run a test or two, really...not just a visual exam. This is the person you got from Matilda's List, right ?

I think you have discontinued all syringe feeding...so the likelihood of aspiration is very, very low if you are just handfeeding pellets and veggies. No, wet fingers on the beak will not cause problems.

It takes a crop a few hours to empty...maybe between 2-4 hours.

As Jay3 said,don't feed if there'sany sign of stuff still in the criop. It seems to me your feeding menu is very sufficient for just 3 meals a day, spoaced 4 hours apart (but again, don't feed if the crop isn't empty or near-empty.

I do feel also that something is a little off, from your description.

.... I would really get him back to the vet for a test or two on Thursday.


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

ok, here is an update:


Got his ABs injection.
It is doxycycline. The vet says that it covers not only possible infection from injuries, but also takes care of possible ornithosis, which is zoonotic. He said he had one woman with parrots (he treats parrots in addition to cats and dogs), who rescued a wild bird, brought it home and everyone - she and both of her parrots - ended up with ornithosis stuff.

He looked him over and said he looked well.
He decided not to change the bandages so as not to put him under anaesthesia. But the bandages are coming off next week anyway.

I asked about the fecal - he said we could do it later. 
He says that ABs injections are more important, at least for right now.

I saw two tiny specks of blood on paper towel that i put under the pigeon (they weren't there this morning, I saw them when I came back from school and took him to go to the vet).
The vet looked him over and didn't find any possible source of those specks.
He thinks that the pigeon might have just scratched himself accidentally while trying to use his better leg.
That might be the source, indeed, because the specks are right under his better leg.

Overall, the pigeon is doing ok, from what I can tell, at least for today.
I feed him (he is trying to peck at the seed right now), sometimes he tries to peck at the pellet crumbs that fall on the blankie in which he is wrapped, but he does not seem to know how to swallow them: he picks a crumb with his beak, but then, loses it, does not get it into his mouth.

Yesterday, I washed poop off his legs and some feathers, and since he was wet, I put him on a heating pad wrapped up in a blankie (I was reading different things here and remember reading something about wet pigeons getting pneumonia, That they need to be warm and dried up well). So, he sat on a heating pad for a couple of hours till he was all dry and warm.

As for his activity level - same pattern: he sit really, really quiet, then would perk up briefly, then sits quietly. And I tried to watch him during his quiet moments: he is not lethargic or anything, he just sits there quietly...
So, I don't know what to think...
maybe, he did stop panicking, stopped being afraid, relaxed a bit and just "accepted" his situation for now.
He does not look sick, he just looks calmer, I guess...

Although, when I take him out to feed - he starts wriggling and wiggling and kicking with his better leg, and tries to get out of the blankie.

Interesting: now when I start feeding him and put my fingers on his beak to open it - he opens it himself! So cute!
And then, towards the end of the feeding session he starts resisting me opening his beak, and even starts wriggling his head, like toddlers when they don't want to eat anymore and start dodging a spoon. 
Should I stop feeding when he starts doing that?...
or should I finish the meal for the day?
Some meals i finished it and he was fine.
But tonight he was really dodging my fingers with food, so I stopped. I guess, he was full.
So, that's the update for today.


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Today I went back to the vet to remove bandages...


My little Pigi is sleeping peacefully now...

... that hole that we thought was infection was another break and a bad one, because it was an open break. He must have broken it while trying to crawl and move around.

... the other "bad" leg didn't heal well - the knee fracture didn't heal and was infected, too. The vet said that with the knee fracture not healed well he would be in constant pain and discomfort. And that new other open break had a risk of being as bad as the knee break...

... his wing didn't heal well - the vet said he would not have any use of it...

... I cried as I stroke his little head while he was passing...

... I am still crying...

Thank you all for all your help...


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## DeeDee's Mom (Dec 17, 2011)

I am so very sorry! But at least Pigi is at peace now, and you did everything you could for him. He spent his last days surrounded by love and care.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

oh God how sad...
I know exactly how you feel :-(


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well...you did all you could. As others have said, he spent his final days in a peaceful and loving environment....and he is in a better place now.

Thank you for caring.


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## Marshmallowknee (Jun 17, 2011)

Hello Red Squirrel.

Reading through your story, I wish I had taken to visiting this forum more often in the last few months. In the end though, it sounds like others here were quick to provide you with pertinent assistance, which is great, and which they always do !

I live in Montreal, and rescued my first pigeon almost a year ago. Let me know if you need help with anything, or have any questions.

I'd be curious to know what veterinarian looked after your pigeon (I had a hard time hunting down ressources, but did manage to find a good one in the end), but most importantly, how is your little friend ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Marshmallowknee said:


> Hello Red Squirrel.
> 
> Reading through your story, I wish I had taken to visiting this forum more often in the last few months. In the end though, it sounds like others here were quick to provide you with pertinent assistance, which is great, and which they always do !
> 
> ...


You need to read the whole post. The bird died.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I realize this is an older thread and that the bird has passed. For the benefit of those that may read this thread in the future, I feel I must post this warning from the Oregon Veterinary Medical Association.


*Ibuprofen* - this over the counter medication is at the top of the list for poisoning animals. Ibuprofen medications include: Advil, Aleve, and Motrin. Many pet owners believe they are helping their pet by giving them this anti-inflammatory medication, especially if the pet is old and suffering from arthritis. Even one ibuprofen tablet can cause serious damage to dogs, cats, ferrets, birds, hamsters, and gerbils. Pet poisoning associated with Ibuprofen include: stomach ulcers, intestinal ulcers, and kidney failure.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Interesting info....but wait a minute, though. 

This poor Pigeon had incredibly severe injuries, and as I understand it he/she was ultimately put to sleep at a recheck visit....we dunno what the Ibuprophen dosages were, but I think it quite a stretch to intimate that the few administrations of ibuprophen had anything to do with this Pigeon's inability to make it back from such severe injuries.

I agree that it isn't a first-choice Bird med, but my Avian Vets in SF have told me that in a pinch, in very small and correct dosages, it can be an appropriate med. in certain situations....I have used it occasionally when I felt I had to, with no ill effects.

This thread had a lot going on with it....very severe injury...a newcomer to bird nursing...and, quite honestly, based upon the updates provided by Squirrel...a vet who's actions and decisions seemed a bit unusual in some instances....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I wasn't implying that this bird died because of the ibuprofen. The warning had nothing to do with the other content in the thread. I saw it was recommended as pain management and as I have alway been told, by a wildlife vet, not use it, I thought it wise to post the warning and post a link to back to up what I have been told.


Jaye, you have used it will no ill effects and maybe you never will see any ill effects or maybe you have just been lucky, I can't say.
Anyway, how can one control a small and correct dose. Most that post here don't even have a scale.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

What a touching story! I cried too...
God bless you all for the care and love for Pigi in his last 2 weeks!

A new angel in pigeons Heaven!


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## red_squirrel (Mar 22, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your concerns.
Charis - thank you for sharing that information.

As Jaye pointed out, Ibuprofen had nothing to do with this.
The open break didn't heal well and he broke his better leg while trying to use it (I guess, since that leg felt better, he tried to use it and broke his ankle the day or two before that check up) - and that open break got infected.
And the knee open break (the initial one) not only didn't heal well, but also seemed to have gotten infected.
The wing didn't heal well either - it would have remained drooping.

The injuries were extremely severe...

Yes, Jaye, I think the vet could have done at least some things differently...

As for Ibuprofen - it was dosed for me by a licensed bird/wildlife rehabber who used it before. It was not intended as a long-term pain management. And the dosage was safe.
I have also heard that a lot of small mammal rehabbers use it occasionally in emergencies when there is nothing else handy.

But thank you all for your thoughts.

I have not been on the board since then - it was too hard...

Can't look at pigeons the same way . . .


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