# Doves are just smaller pigeons?



## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

So I was looking for the difference between a dove and a pigeon, as a lot of sites say they are the same exact bird, just different names... Apparently this person doesn't like pigeons...

As you can see from the examples below, "there is no true scientific difference." They both belong to the family Columbidae, but there is an important difference in how the two terms are used colloquially. Native speakers generally associate pigeons with domesticated birds or birds that fly around in parks and squares in cities. They tend to associate doves with wild birds that live in forests and are a symbol of peace. A love poem is more likely to have doves than pigeons.
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Pigeons and Doves
There is no true scientific difference between 'pigeons' and 'doves'. While the smaller pigeons often get called 'doves', this is fairly inconsistent. The family can be split into two different groups, but this is based more on their ecology and diet. There are those pigeons that feed on seeds (usually duller coloured, ground-dwelling pigeons), and those that feed on fruit (more striking, aboreal species). The Daintree area has a diverse group of pigeons, with representatives of both types of pigeons, although many species are heard more often than seen. 
http://rainforest-australia.com/Rainforest_Doves_and_Pigeons.htm

"And you know what else really gets my goat? My Japanese students think they're DOVES for God's sake. DOVES, I said! They are NOT doves! Doves are pretty and white and they go coo-coo. They're gentle and lovely to be around. You'd never catch a dove stepping over another dove to get at a dirty piece of Pocky that some stinking kid who needs his diaper changed has a mind to throw at him."
"Don't you see! That's what's so dangerous!" Xavier says. "To confuse something vile and ugly, like a low and foul pigeon, with a gentle, tender dove ... it gets to the root of all the evil in the world! Every instance of evil! The deception in the Garden of Eden! Oh no, that's not a pigeon offering you that apple, Eve my dear! That's a dove! A lovely pure white dove who wants only the best for you!"
"Subtle semantic difference, you may say. Perhaps a pigeon IS a member of the dove family, some distant and unwelcome relative generally shunned at family picnics." Xavier digs into his pocket and slaps down a hundred-yen coin onto the metal drainboard. "But when people start confusing the two--innocently enough, but still, a confusion--the whole symbol becomes muddy. And when the symbols become muddy, can the idea behind the symbol ... can the idea of peace itself remain unsullied? You've got people confusing pigeons with doves! Pigeons are the most unpeaceful creatures I've ever seen, and that's my whole point! They've taken over Peace Park, and they've convinced everybody that they're doves. The wolves are at the door, and they're all in pigeons' clothing.

I've owned doves before, not tame however, and to me, they were different then pigeons...sigh, I'm lost lol.


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

I am trying to educate myself with pigeons, yet so many different sites tell different info.
Are Doves the same LINE as pigeons but just smaller and different noise?


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

and which of the 2 make a more bonded with owner pet? Or would they be the same raised from a baby?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pigeonatepaperclip said:


> I am trying to educate myself with pigeons, yet so many different sites tell different info.
> Are Doves the same LINE as pigeons but just smaller and different noise?


Just be careful what 'sites' you go to....some of them are sponsored by 'pest control' companies  Giving alot of misinformation to scare people and drum up business for themselves!
Pigeons are derived from the 'Wild Rock Dove', then somewhere along the line the term 'pigeon' was attached to the larger of the species when they were domesticated, and 'dove' to the smaller. But there are alot more differences than size and noise they make.
Because of incorrect information (like in your quoted article), many doves (small white ringnecks) die at the hands of ignorant people. Perfect example is.....'Wedding/Funeral Releases'. The experienced fancier uses 'white homing pigeons'. They are released at the ceremony, then return to their loft. Not 'all' pigeons have the 'homing ability'. A misinformed person (that wants to save money), will buy a bunch of white ringnecks and release at a ceremony....they end up dieing someplace because they don't know where to go or how to survive. Same thing happens if you buy just any white pigeon from a market or loft......they don't know where to go or how to survive, they are 'domestic birds'. If they happen to hook up with a 'feral' flock and learn fast, their chances are better. There are over 300 breeds of pigeon/dove. The pigeons that you see in the city are 'ferals'.....'descendants of the Wild Rock Dove - domesticated and brought here hundreds of years ago from their native country's, then escaped to the wild'. Similar to 'feral cats'. There are also feral flocks of 'Lovebirds' and 'Cockatiels' in the U.S., but most are confined to the warmer southern states because they haven't become acclimated to the cold climates yet. (I've read that Lovebird flocks are moving north, some have been seen as far north as Pennsylvania) They are ALL still domestic breeds.
To put it simple........there are hundreds of breeds of dogs. You wouldn't send a Yorkie out to do a Labrador's 'job'. If you release a Chihuahua and a Chow Chow out in a cold climate area to fend for themselves, which one will survive? Same 'species' different 'breeds'.
'Hand raised' babies are always easier to tame, But many adults and ferals can be tamed with time and patients.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

And just to add....Pigeons are one of THE most intelligent birds. They have the uncanny ability to learn, problem solve, and strong desire to be around humans.....they know *who *controls the food! 
There have been many many stories and cases of lost pigeons walking up to someone's door and knocking to get inside!!
Have you ever seen this video?.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDntbGRPeEU


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Lol I just love that vid, 2 levels of logic applied in 40 seconds.
Thats intelligence lol.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pigeons And Dove are related but not the same. As a pigeon can breed with a dove but the off spring are not able to reproduce. At least not known to be. IN some areas the pigeon is still refured to as a dove. So Then to doves come in many different types. BUT pigeons have have changed into what over 250 different breed lines And cultivated to a way doves have not. The idea of the dove the white dove which would not survive much in the wild Is represented by mans idea. Yes many people do not li8ke pigeons As they flock. in the wild And the people only see what they think of as a dirty pest. BUT if given a chance those same people after seeing and learning more would see the pigeon in a different light. Just as the STARLING many see it as a pest. And some see it as a bird they like. Funny only man judges while nature just Is.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Pigeons sit on eggs for 18 days, Doves 12. I would call that a scientific difference.


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for the info guys  That cleared it up.
So if I have a squab (single one) from a rescue (feral) and for example, in summer I sit outside with her on a picnic table everyday, get her used to my yard and her surroundings, when she gets older and wants to explore and say flies up on my roof or garage, will she come down, or would I fear her flying off and never seeing her again? Do the ferals have the homing instinct? Or would she not go far as I am all she knows? (I know about the predator concern as they haven't been raised with a flock) I'm learning more


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A single pigeon let out alone isn't safe. That's why they live in flocks. A lone pigeon is more apt to be caught by a hawk or some other predator. You just never know whether your bird would stay or leave if let out. He may come back for a while, but may also take off to find a mate somewhere. Yes ferals do have homing instincts, but it could also go off and get lost. Even homers get lost.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

AZCorbin said:


> Pigeons sit on eggs for 18 days, Doves 12. I would call that a scientific difference.


That is a very good point. But that may just come with the size difference.


Mourning Dove - 14 days
Ringneck Dove - 14 days
Diamond Dove - 14 days

Rock Dove (domestic/feral pigeons) - 18 days
Wood Pigeon (UK) - 18 days
New Zealand Wood Pigeon - 28 days
Crowned Pigeon - 30 days


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for the info, I guess that's where the flightsuits with leashes come into play.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pigeonatepaperclip said:


> Thanks for the info, I guess that's where the flightsuits with leashes come into play.


I wouldn't even use one of those. There was mention of a story here awhile back about a member that had her pet pigeon outside with a harness and leash. A hawk came down and took it...with harness and leash  I feel sick everytime I think of that  Hungry hawks are very brazen.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> I wouldn't even use one of those. There was mention of a story here awhile back about a member that had her pet pigeon outside with a harness and leash. A hawk came down and took it...with harness and leash  I feel sick everytime I think of that  Hungry hawks are very brazen.


Oh yes. They've hit my birds RIGHT in front of me, several times.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I was feeding the feral flock that comes here, and felt one hitting my foot. I thought to myself, "boy they _are_ hungry today!" Then I looked down to see that a pigeon was beside my foot, and the hawk that was clinging to his back was what was hitting me with his wings. I yelled, and the hawk took off with the pigeon, so I chased them, and the pigeon got away. I mean, he was actually hitting my foot, over and over, trying to maintain his balance on the poor pigeon! I couldn't believe they could be so bold.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> I was feeding the feral flock that comes here, and felt one hitting my foot. I thought to myself, "boy they _are_ hungry today!" Then I looked down to see that a pigeon was beside my foot, and the hawk that was clinging to his back was what was hitting me with his wings. I yelled, and the hawk took off with the pigeon, so I chased them, and the pigeon got away. I mean, he was actually hitting my foot, over and over, trying to maintain his balance on the poor pigeon! I couldn't believe they could be so bold.


 OMG!
That was like the Juvenile Bald Eagle that crash landed in my dog pen! I heard a rush of flapping wings coming from my loft (which was inside the dog pen). I turned just in time to see this gigantic bird flapping on the ground in there.....my dogs were off to the side...horrified!, and my fake owl was in the center of the pen (which *was* mounted and filled with rocks on a post next to the loft). Obviously a very hungry juvenile eagle was going to eat the owl! He hung around the yard, swooping over the loft and my head for about a week 
When their hungry......they do just about anything!


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh Dear!!!! So how do ppl take their pigeons outside for a walk with them? I would NEVER EVER leave my bird outside alone. If I ever get another one, I would love to bring it with me, just to get some fresh air. I guess a cage is the only way.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

My house pigeon Scooter, goes into a little playpen I made for her, safely surrounded by hardware cloth. My loft pigeons sun themselves out in the aviary.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> OMG!
> That was like the Juvenile Bald Eagle that crash landed in my dog pen! I heard a rush of flapping wings coming from my loft (which was inside the dog pen). I turned just in time to see this gigantic bird flapping on the ground in there.....my dogs were off to the side...horrified!, and my fake owl was in the center of the pen (which *was* mounted and filled with rocks on a post next to the loft). Obviously a very hungry juvenile eagle was going to eat the owl! He hung around the yard, swooping over the loft and my head for about a week
> When their hungry......they do just about anything!



Good Grief! That must have been something to see. The poor thing must have been terribly hungry.


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

hmmm, never thought of that, good idea. One can probably pick up a cheap playpen from a thrift store or craigslist and turn it upside down lol, instant lil jail.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It isn't an actual playpen. But it's Skooter's playpen.


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

Awwww so cute, what a pretty bird you have there


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> It isn't an actual playpen. But it's Skooter's playpen.


LOL,  that's cute! I have to make something for 'Trouper' next spring. He's my little handicapped youngster with 1 severely splayed leg......it's twisted and sticks up on his back! He's in a huge ferret cage right now next to my computer with Cocoa (a hand raised baby) to keep him company until the warm weather comes back  I'm going to make a separate 'handicap' cage for him outside.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pigeonatepaperclip said:


> hmmm, never thought of that, good idea. One can probably pick up a cheap playpen from a thrift store or craigslist and turn it upside down lol, instant lil jail.


When its a single pigeon, bonded with you, they really don't like to be outside alone. You could make a small flight cage that he can go in while you sit out in the yard. I have a few hand raised Fantails that I put in the loft, but when I go inside they still fly to me and ride around on my back and shoulder while I feed and clean. They never lost the bond we had....they also come to me when I call their names  It makes my day!


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh Gosh no, I would never leave one by herself outside, even in a cage, ya never know. The ones I did have were glued to me indoors. The one that just passed was so young be she was already training well, she knew her name, would follow me everywhere I went. The vets said that they have never seen a bird so attached to their owner, not even parrots. Man I'm still grieving hard for her.
BUT, on a good note, I may have a older squab, almost a fledgling coming  I am so excited, I made a nice supper and am too excited/giddy/sick to my stomache to even eat lol.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

pigeonatepaperclip said:


> Oh Gosh no, I would never leave one by herself outside, even in a cage, ya never know. The ones I did have were glued to me indoors. The one that just passed was so young be she was already training well, she knew her name, would follow me everywhere I went. The vets said that they have never seen a bird so attached to their owner, not even parrots. Man I'm still grieving hard for her.
> BUT, on a good note, I may have a older squab, almost a fledgling coming  I am so excited, I made a nice supper and am too excited/giddy/sick to my stomache to even eat lol.


the reason they need outside is for sun.. they need it just as humans do to aid in nutrient absorption and bio assimilation. because of the preen gland which has oils that they spread when grooming it contains vitamin D which when they groom converts to vitamin D3 when they ingest it... they need vitamin D3 for eggs and bone...and for their bodies to have good calcium absorbtion. otherwise you can use uv lighting.


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

So do you all use a uv light in the winters? It get pitch dark where I am at almost 5:30 pm. I hate this hour change. Winter months here all long, dark early and cold.
I don't have any birds now, but good to know all the info ahead of time.


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## pigeonatepaperclip (Nov 20, 2011)

ugh, my spelling is bad...I think faster than I know how to type lol.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> *When its a single pigeon, bonded with you, they really don't like to be outside alone. *You could make a small flight cage that he can go in while you sit out in the yard. I have a few hand raised Fantails that I put in the loft, but when I go inside they still fly to me and ride around on my back and shoulder while I feed and clean. They never lost the bond we had....they also come to me when I call their names  It makes my day!




Good point. Scooter likes us around too. I bring her out and sit with her and have a cup of coffee, then work around the yard. She can watch us. This summer, I moved her_ playpen_ up to where I feed the ferals and songbirds. She can watch them come to eat, and she also watches the squirrels and chipmunks scampering about. She has a little bath that fits inside the pen. This way she gets sunlight. Our backyard is fenced in, so no large animals can get to the cage, and besides we're right there.


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## ForestBeekeeper (Dec 25, 2011)

In my very brief study on doves I found site:

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Articles/hybrids.htm

That discusses inter-breeding doves and pigeons and the hybrids they make.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Yeah, basically pigeons and doves are closely related (in the family Columbidae,) but whether something is a pigeon or dove is genus and species-specific. 

Here's the Wikipedia list of birds within the family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbidae

You can look at the specific genuses listed to see all the species within each genus.


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