# Please Help! I think Cher-Ami might be egg bound?



## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Cher-Ami is doing wonderful! Had her since August...she should be about a year old now..

She started buiding a nest..and showing mating behavior, but towards me...she does not have a mate, or another bird present..

Im very worried about her...today she looks "off"..she is a bit puffed out, her wings seem to be down lower than usual, and her tail is down...and her poop is pretty runny, and the liquid part was yellow-ish before..she isnt her normal chatty girl today...she usually makes lots of sounds..but she is just looking not too happy..

This would be her first egg...I have been reading and her symptoms sound like she may be bound....also, her poop has looked different in the past week since I changed her food...I used to give her store bought wild bird seed, but a man across the street from me who has about 80 homers gave me some of his mixture and she has been eating that...

What on earth can this be? I need to go to work in the morning, but will be off tues and wed...what can I do for her right now incase this is an egg bound issue? This is one reason I was hoping she wasnt female, but the man across the street is pretty sure she is...

What can I do...NOW? Im in a panic over here...Maybe for a quicker response you can find me of facebook...look up Dawn Carman, Garfield NJ.....Im not gonna sleep all nite...Im soooo worried


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Maybe its too early and she might be getting ready to lay that first egg and sometimes it is hard on these young birds...Maybe you will have an egg by morning....c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Just noticed she tried to poop and only a drop of runny stuff came out..she is not acting right...at all


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

When pigeons are going to lay their first egg they get a little sick looking and I am hoping you will have an egg by morning and we will say a birdie prayer that she lays one. Do you have a good avian vet and it might be good for a vet to take a look at her just in case it is something else...Keep her warm and peaceful....c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Im going to the store right now to get cod liver oil...how much do i give her when I get it?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Should be able to tell by handling her if she is egg bound...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, I don't want too alarm you too much, as I know you are already pretty wound up about your Cher-Ami, but you posting that she tried to void and only a drop of runny stuff came out really set off red flags for me.

When a hen becomes egg bound and this condition blocks off her ability to void her waste material, she should be considered as extremely critical and be seen by an avian vet ASAP. Without professional intervention when they are in this state, they are literally in their last hours on this world.

I don't mean for you to have a sleepless night, but I feel it's important that you know just how critical a condition your Cher-Ami may be in. Please read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/need-help-with-sick-bird-42248.html?highlight=bound

Please be waiting outside your vet in the morning when they open, as I think she may need immediate help with no delays.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I dont know what it would feel like by handling her if she is my first pigeon, and never laid an egg before..this is all new to me...I bought the cod liver oil...now what? Warm/hot bath too? What do I do now??????


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, please read the thread below, as it describes in detail what to do to help a possible egg bound bird, keep in mind this bird was voiding OK, so the circumstances are different from your Cher-Ami. Since you can't get to the vet until the morning there is no harm in trying a few things for her to see if it possibly helps, but please remember unless things change drastically for Cher-Ami, she passes an egg overnight, see really needs to get to a vet ASAP in the morning.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/egg-bound-hen-help-44566.html

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

She took about a half of eye dropper of cod liver oil like a trooper..no problem at all....I also sat her in a warm bath for about 7 minutes...she pooped..runny, but nonetheless, poop....she is now in her "nest"...he appearence also looked a bit different since yesterday...around her beak, by her face seems darker, if that makes any sense....her beak looked darker too..but it could be from her rubbing her face on the twigs in her nest but why did I only see the darkness yesterday? Shes been making her nest for at least 2-3 weeks...
How long does it take the cod oil to take effect? If its an egg issue, when can I expect to see something? She is acting more active now since the oil/bath...Im letting her be...she is in her nest..

I knew something was very wrong when she didnt want to cuddle today...this bird absolutely loves to cuddle...she comes to me and cuddles on her own quite often, at least a few times a day, and today when she didnt want to cuddle, I knew something was wrong...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, glad to hear she was able to void after her bath and oil, this takes a little bit of worry off my mind. If she has not passed an egg overnight, you really need to err on the side of caution and have a vet examine her in the morning, best safe than sorry when it comes to these kind of issues.

Will say a prayer that things resolve well for her overnight,

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

So basically she should pass an egg overnight now? How many eggs do I expect?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

IF she lays she will only lay one tonight.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Shouldl I do another warm bath before I go to sleep?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How's she doing?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

OK I WAS a bound egg...I took her to the man across the street who breeds and flies pigeons...He took one feel of her and said it was an egg, and she was in a lot of pain, and it had to come out...the black on her face was due to the bound egg he thinks, maybe from stress and pain...
He had no choice but to put his fingers inside her and try to work it out...I think it was sideways...took him about 20 minutes of this..and she sat thru it all, making moaning noises, but not fighting him...almost helping him..she was pushing...Then came the blood...
she started bleeding, and to me it looked bad, but to Vinnie it wasnt horrible...(This is coming from a man who last week stitched one of his birds by himself that came home bleeding from probably flying into a wire...over 70 stitches...so he can handle anything)...eventually the egg broke, but she didnt expell the shell, just some, or most of the egg contents....Vinnie said she may or may not pull thru...that I would know in a couple days, and if she makes it like 2 days most likely she will be okay...
I have an appointment with an avian vet tomorrow morning at 11am....

As I was walking home holding this bleeding bird, I thought for sure she was gonna die in my hands at some point tonight..As soon as I got her home I sat her in a warm bowl of water, and she sat there peacefully...Mostly to get the blood off and to relieve her very sore butt...She seemed to enjoy it...Most of the night she sat in her cage quietly, the times she pooped seemed to be bloody..mostly blood and clear stuff..but then again I dont think she ate since saturday..
She did go and drink on her own which I was happy to see...and when I would go up to her she continued to make her baby noises at me and flutter her wings...when I told her to "Bob" she amazingly bobbed her head, as usual..its something she learned..I say BOB, and she bobs her head at me....
About an hour ago, she flew out of her cage to me, which is really just a hop from her cage...came over to me, gave me a kiss, literally, then flew up to what I call her cubicle...Its pop up square houses they make for cats...I have 2 on top of her cage...they have 3 openings and a solid top, bottom and one side...she LOVES them..that is where she spends a lot of time these days of "nesting" and that is where she is now...its her safe haven..her paradise...her own private space, but she loves when I peek my head in..she starts making noises and rubs her beak all over my face....she just now did that, which is a very good sign to me...
She is a fighter...I seriously didnt think she was gonna pull thru the night...I was a total wreck....A couple hours ago I was cuddling her and begging her to please pull thru....please get better...having her 9 months was not enough time for us...Man, I was begging her like a little kid begging her mother for a toy....she actually looked like she was listening...

She does seem sore, as you would expect..but her temperment is perking right back up...her drinking on her own I thought was a good sign, her coming to me, and "chatting" with me all seem like good signs to me, unless Im just really going thru a case of wishful thinking...but I would think that if she was in fact probably gonna "die" from this, wouldnt you think that as the hours went on she would be getting worse? In fact, she seems to be getting better...more herself...but sore..tired...probably just stressed to hell for having that stuck for what Vinnie thinks was a couple days...

I can not wait to go to the vet in the morning to make sure all is ok, and find out what to do about the broken egg inside her, and what to do about the eggs she still needs to pass...I have a lot of questions..plus I wanted to take her to a vet anyhow before all this happened...but I was told if she was fine there was no need to take her...

People, please be honest..have I done all I should have? Do you think she sounds like she is gonna pull thru? I am sooo in love with this bird, I will totally go crazy if anything happens to her....If you thought we were close before, damn, just wait until you see us once she pulls thru...

CHER-AMI....A FIGHTER JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL HERO "CHER-AMI"....I KNEW THERE WAS A REASON I PICKED THAT NAME...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, I am sure Vinnie has a great deal of experience with pigeons, but I sure do wish you would have taken her to the vet first thing this morning. Well, she is alive and acting better, which is good, the issues now are infection setting, getting the remainders of any egg remnants out of her and is she forming a second egg and what are the issues going to be with it.

Many times they just end up passing the remainder of a collapsed egg of the next day or two, your vet can help by flushing and using forceps to help with this, please know the sharp edges from pieces of a collapsed egg can bring about an infection. I also would recommend she be put on a course of antibiotics to treat for any existing infection and prevent one from taking hold and your vet will advise on a plan for the second egg.

Again, my very best advice is to get her into a vet ASAP, although she is acting better this could change very rapidly, you have bought some time please use it wisely.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Please keep Cher-Ami, calm, warm and restricted in her nest/cage. She does not need to be flying around right now. The movement could could cause complictions to her already very serious condition.

If there is any way you can get to the avian vet sooner than your schedueled appointment I would certainly do so. 

THIS BIRD NEEDS TO BE SEEN BY A VET ASAP!!!!


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I really shouldnt say she is flying..her cage is 6" from my bed..she just hops over..and she only did it a couple times...she is in her cage now resting...she went back on her own...she is preening herself..

I tried to get an appointment today, but nobody had openings or they didnt know about pigeons...I finally was referred to an avian vet thru Raptor's Trust, who I was on the phone with today and suggested I do exactly what I did..which was to go see Vinnie in the meantime while I am waiting for an appointment...11am tuesday is the earliest I was able to get..and I wasnt settling for a vet that wasnt familiar with birds..

I was in the store at midnight last night getting her cod liver oil..and was up with her all night soothing and warm bathing her.....i had no choice but to go to work today, but I came home 3 hours after being there to check on her, and again at lunchtime, and was home by 4:30 and she was by Vinnie by 4:45....


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

And the main reason for her vet appt is to do everything mentioned above, antibiotics, etc...made my list today of what to ask, and what to request...and what to expect about the future eggs..

Im a step ahead of you...I do a lot of research on my pets...and try my best to do whats right..and especially to notice when they act differently....I picked up that something was wrong with her and did what I was able to do for her on a sunday night at midnight...


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I love her sooo much....I will definitely be up all night watching her sleep...she is the greatest gift ever..and I will forever do what is right for her...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, sometimes we have to do the best we can under the circumstances we are handed and it seems you are trying to do just that. The urging from myself, and others as well, to get her into a vet ASAP, is because we understand the hole in the heart the loss of a cherished bird can cause and we don't want you to have to suffer from that.

Good luck with her tomorrow,

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Just wanted to give an update....its 8:53am..we have been up for about an hour now...she rested thru the night wonderfully..

I was happy to see this morning she was asking for her normal morning routine...which is OUT of the cage to go on her "tour"...which means while im getting ready for work, she is off exploring...she is always waiting for me in the bathroom by the time I go in there..she is soo smart...Cher-Ami is a walker...not a flyer..she exercises her wings a lot, but she would much rather RUN around the house...this morning she is taking it slow and just walking around..she even is usually waiting INSIDE her cage by the time im ready to leave for work..she is sooo smart...
This morning she is a bit confused because the routine is slightly off because no work today or tomorrow for me....we have our vet appt at 11am...I can not wait...I hope everything goes well for my little girl..

I offered her food last nite, she took a couple pecks..not interested..but she did drink water on her own a few times...right after her egg breaking I gave her water with an eye dropper while she was soaking in her bath....

There is still a slight amount of blood in her stool...I had her pooping on a paper towel all night because I thought maybe i would bring it to the vet for him to see it? I dont know if I should...but Im letting her poop as she is on her tour so that I can see what it looks like...usually she prefers to poop in her cage..


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

I'm really glad she made it through the night, and am looking forward to updates after her vet visit. Sure hope everything goes well.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Cher-Ami went to the vet today...all seems ok...No egg fragments were seen inside her..she probably passed them...of course the vet isnt sure if she will lay another egg, or have a problem if she does...time will tell..

She weighs one pound...awwww....and the vet was amazed by her temperment..she let him do anything he wanted to her...she sat on the scale like a good girl..he said birds never do that...

He gave her Baytril...and Metacam (for inflamation and pain)....and I should have the stool sample results in a couple days...

The vet said that Vinnie, my wonderful neighbor, most likely did save her life...she probably wouldnt have made it too much longer with the egg stuck...

The vet also mentioned that he can give her a shot to stop ovulation if I wanted...but he said it doesnt always work...the shot was $100 and today was already $200 so I figured Id wait on that and ask you folks if anyone ever heard of that, and does it work? I dont want her to make anymore eggs if possible..

I was also told to remove her nesting materials...it may have provoked her to have an egg


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, thanks for the update, I am glad to her Cher-Ami is doing better. How long did he prescribe her course of Baytril for? The drug you are speaking of to help her stop laying eggs is called Lupron (leuprolide acetate), I myself have had no experience with it, perhaps others here have used it and can comment on its effectiveness and safety.

The one thing that caught my eye was her weight, 1 (one) pound. Is this an exact weight or are you just saying she is around 1Lb. If the weight is exact, this means she weighs in at about 450 grams and this, depending on her body size and breed, may be a cause for concern and a second look. Could you confirm her exact weight and her breed (no need if she is a feral)?

Please monitor her very closely, has she started to eat again and how is she drinking? Please keep us updated of the lab results.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

She is not a feral...she is a banded blue check homer...I had her since august...I wasnt looking at the scale when she was on it, but when she hopped off I asked the vet what it said and he said 1 pound...I dont think she is anywhere near one pound? Isnt that heavy? I always thought she was thin...too thin...but everyone says she is good....What should she weigh? My mom has a scale upstairs, I can weigh her tomorrow..I didnt think one pound sounded right at all to me...I never would have thought she was that heavy...definitely doesnt feel anywhere near that to me..and im always holding her...ALWAYS!

She never stopped drinking...she still doesnt want to eat seeds, but she did eat peanut butter and bread, cooked corn, a few bites of my chicken cutlet (lol) and a beak full or 2 of mashed potatoes...

The vet has to call me back tomorrow or thurs with her stool result...somehow I missed him saying how long to keep her on the meds...I will call him tomorrow and ask..I may have been overloaded with info and that flew over my head...how long do they usually stay on baytril and the anti-inflamatory? I already notice her vent does not appear to be all that swolen anymore...she is still holding her tail down a bit, but im thinking its because she is still quite sore...

Im just so worried when she lays another one...the vet said she may or may not lay anymore..I really hope NOT...Im gonna be a paranoid wreck now for sure for the rest of her life...If she bobs her tail, I think shes bound up again...her tail is still down, but like I said i think its from soreness..the doctor looked in her butt with a lighted microscope thing and said nothing was there...

Her poop is still mostly liquid, that actually looks like the consistency of egg white to me..but then again, she hasnt been eating right since Friday...today her appetite picked up, so I am keeping a watch on her poop...the drinking is no problem..she never stopped that and does it all the time...

Being my house isnt as warm as she should be, I have a flood type light that I used to use for my turtle to bask with on top of her cage, and towels wrapped around the cage with a small opening in the front....Im trying to keep her as warm as possible...she is also being kept warm during her many times a day cuddle moments...only now, when we cuddle I snuggle her in a blanket...she loves it...and usually cuddles for an hour at a time and sleeps while doing so...

Oh yeah, thats another thing...is it NORMAL for a pigeon to cuddle like a puppy? If Im laying on my bed on my stomach, she is snuggled right next to my head pushed up against me and holding onto me with one foot...this is a constant thing that she has been doing with me since probably December...I never heard of a pigeon that insists on cuddling and loves being carried around...I swear she acts like she is a little designer dog...LOL


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

With weight, there can be some variation in this depending on factors like breed, exercise, diet, body size and gender, so it's hard to put an exact number on just what any given bird should weigh, but in the mid to higher 300s' would be expected for a pet that does not free fly, such as Cher-Ami. When you said she was 1 pound (453 grams) I was a little concerned because there are issues associated with reproductive problems that can account for an abnormal gain in weight.

You will really need to keep a close eye on her for the next few days, they almost always lay eggs in pairs, so this means she should be expected to produce a second egg. There is also the fact because of the way her first egg was dealt with, although life saving, has inflamed her inside and perhaps causing infection as well, if one was not already present, so a normal delivery of the second one becomes even more problematic. If you want to be on the safe side an x-ray will reveal if a second egg has formed, and if it has, your vet may elect from a range of treatments, including ovocentesis on it. This where a needle is inserted into an egg, while in the abdomen, and it's contents evacuated, then the shell is collapsed and then they try and remove this collapsed egg as an intact unit.

With her meds, if she where mine I would keep her on the Baytril a full two weeks and most likely add in a second anti-biotic called metronidazole, to give broader coverage to kill bacteria called anaerobes that Baytril alone does not. This may not even be necessary, but since metronidazole is well tolerated, my feeling is with reproductive infections, is that it is better to be safe than sorry.

With her food, I would broaden this a bit, in a separate dish than her regular food, I would offer her things that pigeons can't usually resist, such as a mixture of raw shelled sunflower seeds, safflower seeds and chopped up raw peanuts (make sure they are raw and chopped up). In a another separate dish I would offer her some pelleted feed. Harrison's makes pellets called Adult Fine pellets that I find they like, and are the right size, and also Lafeber's make a pellet a called Lafeber’s Premium Daily Diet Pellets, the size for Cockatiels is the size to get. I suggest the pellets because they break down fast when eaten and she may just sense that these may be more appropriate for her with things sore inside.

Finally, I know you will not want to hear this, but you may need to change your cuddle routine with her. This "cuddling" is seen by her as mating behavior by her "mate" (this is you) and this encourages her to want to produce eggs. Others may have suggestions on how you can still be affectionate with her, without causing mating behavior.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

So are you saying Cher-Ami's weight is too low?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

No, I was saying I thought the weight you stated for her, 1 pound (453 grams) might be too high. If you could get her weighed on a kitchen scale, with it set to weigh in grams, this would be good.

Karyn


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I agree with the advice given.

To try to keep her from laying eggs in the future, restrict the cuddling, NEVER pet her on her back, and do give her comfort but avoid nesting material or bowls-perches only. You also need to limit her intake of protein and other nutrients that stimulates their sex drive.

Thank you for your care over this bird and listening to the advice given here.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, I just wanted to touch back on something. I almost always try and give advice from the perspective of what I would do if the bird I am trying to offer help for were one of my own loved birds. So the more I think about it, it's now two days later and there is the real possibility that she has formed a second egg in her and I, without doubt, would be taking my own bird in today for an x-ray to confirm or refute this. I would want to have as much time to be pro-active in her treatment, instead of reactive, and an x-ray would help with this, as time counts a lot when you're dealing with these kind of issues. Just needed to get this thought off my mind.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Why is petting her on the back bad? And as far as the cuddling, is anytime appropriate to do so? I so look forward to those moments...

I removed all her nesting material yesterday...she only has her brick to sit on....she ate a bunch of crushed peanuts...her poop is getting better...Her tail is not hanging down, just barely...

She slept last night in her cage with an electric blanket covering it...I didnt sleep...I kept an eye on her all nite and she was extremely comfortable..she slept well..

As far as the xray there is no way I can do that until friday unfortunately..being she goes to an avian vet its $80 just to walk in...yesterdays visit was over $200...and this would be considered an emergency and it will be an extra $30 added to the visit...Its unfortunate, but I just got back to work after a 6 week family medical leave because my dad had to get his heart valve replaced, and me and Cher-Ami spent 7 weeks in pennsylvania taking care of him, with no salary coming in..I just got my very first check and most of it went to her bill yesterday..it was a small paycheck...

Im nervous now...I dont want her to make anymore eggs..I so wish she wasnt a female...she doesnt deserve this...shes too good to suffer in anyway...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, the act of petting on the back is stimulating to them to mate and produce eggs, for now you can substitute scratching her head and chin area, but try to refrain from petting and stroking her.

With the economy the way it is, I know it sure makes for some tough decisions that have to be made, so we try and do the best we can. Like I said before, we should assume a second egg may be formed and be prepared to deal with this event. It's important that you keep a close eye on her demeanor and most importantly that she continues to produce droppings at regular intervals, if she starts do tiny spot droppings like before, you should assume there is an egg, she has become extremely critical again and will need immediate intervention. I would also suggest that you supplement with calcium, give the calcium 4 hours away from her Baytril, as calcium can interfere with the way Baytril is absorbed.

Because of events, I think it's kind of important that she goes on the second antibiotic I mentioned, metronidazole. This drug is used to treat a number of different diseases in a number of animals species and if you are close to, or in a larger populated area, many tropical fish stores carry this med, call around one of the names is Fishzole, if you get some I can help you with how to give it Cher-Ami.

Your vet should be able to speak with you for a follow-up call, explain the concerns that have been raised to you and what should the plan be if she goes critical again.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

As far as her pooping it is getting better, its less runny, but still lots of liquid and doesnt seem as frequent as normal...I dont know if she is hesitant to poop because she is sore...the vet had said it will take her a few days to get her body back to normal...plus she wasnt eating that great since saturday so could that be why her poop hasnt been wonderful?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

The vet had said its good to soak her in warm water for about 15 minute intervals...Im thinking of doing that in a few minutes...she didnt get a warm bath at all yesterday...

Im hoping that will loosen her up and help her poop and pass an egg, if one is there..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, you may need to also put Vinnie an alert again, as if push comes to shove, he saved her once and you may have to go "old school" again rather than just do nothing if she becomes very bad off, with no chance of getting into your vet.

Also, you could have Vinnie examine her to see if he feels there is an egg inside her. Finally, please do look into the metronidazole, I think it's important.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, there is one other thing that has been on my mind that I thought I should make you aware of, and it is something called egg yolk peritonitis. I know you are already worried, but as a result of the issues going on with Cher-Ami's reproductive system, it's best that you know of one other real danger we should be on guard for. 

Egg yolk peritonitis is where an ovulated egg does not make it down the normal reproductive canal, as it should, but slips in a birds coelomic cavity (the abdominal area where major body organs lie) where the yolk is regarded as a foreign invader by the body and a major immune response is initiated, plus the yolk is regarded by bacteria as an ideal breading medium. So between the inflammation and massive infection setting in, let's just say this would not be good if it were to happen.

Sometimes, the best case scenario when this happens is, the body just absorbs the errant yolk and all is well. The Baytril she is on will help prophylactically to guard against this kind of infection and this is the reason that I am suggesting the metronidazole for her, to broaden coverage for any existing infection and preventing other possible infections from occurring.

Would it be possible for you to look at Cher-Ami's Baytril prescription and let us know the strength and frequency/dosage prescribed?

Karyn


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

Just a few words of encouragement, since I know you need it right now because of all you have been through!! Thank you so much for taking such good care of this poor girl. She would have died if you had not helped her! I know the worry is overwhelming, believe me, I have spent countless hours worrying about many a poor innocent creature. (Cher-Ami)!! And although Cher-Ami can't talk, I'm sure she appreciates all the money you have spent trying to get her well! Lets hope there is only one egg this time, and she will have some time to recover.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Her Baytril is 20mg and she gets 0.2cc 2 times a day.....also on Metacam 0.5mg also 0.2cc 2 times a day. the dr called me today, she also has 2 common parasites in pigeons....need to pick up 2 more meds for that on friday....another $90 something bucks...lol..I dont mind the money, I just wish this happened on a payweek! I forgot what parasites he said, but i know one began with a "C" and the other with an "H"....he said neither is serious, but due to her condition he would like to treat it so that its not something else to slow down or prevent her healing from the egg..

I steamed up the bathroom for her 2 times today...this afternoon she got a nice shower after I steamed it up...and she took a major poop during! That made me happy....

I just got her out of her 2nd steam of the day..this time after I steamed it up I showered her again, then filled up the bathtub with nice warm water for her to soak in...I was cracking up..she was floating around like a duck...happy and content...just floating around and almost falling asleep...It was adorable! Never knew a pigeon would float like a duck, and actually enjoy it! 

When she was done I put a bunch of KY Jelly around her vent, just in case...the vet said it would be a good idea to do that, as it wont hurt her and may even soothe her....

She is nice and warm in her cage and resting...taking the meds like a trooper..I actually think she likes the taste of the baytril...

I had the last 2 days off work....I had planned them and it turned out I spent both days at home with the bird, and the vet with her yesterday...tomorrow I must return to work, but I will be home to check her at lunch..so the longest she will be alone is 4 hours....I spent the entire day today watching her and trying to make sure she is ok..and doing tons of research on the internet on pigeons and egg problems...information overload...and seems to just make me more worried the more i read..

I wish there was a society that would help me with her vet bills being I rescued her...but I know no such thing exists...I know where my income tax check is gonna go when it comes!

Oh and I asked about the xray..he doesnt think its necessary at this moment, and if I get it it will be about $400 for the xray and anesthesia...

I am doing the very best I can.....I only cuddled her 2 times today...both times after her shower as she was drying off..and I did it to keep her very warm......

Earlier in the day before her showers she was bobbing her tail just very slightly..and it looked like her vent was opening and closing...and I got worried...put her into the steamy shower and she stopped doing that....her vent is still slightly opening and closing but her tail is almost completely straight....and those strange black marks around her beak and eyes is almost completely gone....she ate peanuts today...and drinks on her own..but she still doesnt want her seed...when I first got her I tried pellets...she hated them and just threw them around so Im not gonna bother getting them again...she totally despised them...so today she ate peanuts, peanut butter sandwich, some pieces of a cuttlebone for calcium (hope thats good as I dont have any other calcium in the house)...

I am just overwhelmed...I want her to just recover! The vet isnt even sure if she will produce another egg this time around because of her issue...he also said that if the remnants of her broken egg shell sticks to her uterus it will cause scarring which MAY cause her to be sterile and not produce eggs, which in her case would be the best case scenario....right?

Is the cuttlebone ok for her for calcium? Its pure calcium, so I cant see how it cant be good...


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Thank you Pigeonlove for all your encouraging words...it helps at a time like this when I sometimes feel like people may think Im not doing all I can..but I am..seriously...

Thank you Doboto for all you incredible advice! And thanks to everyone else out here who has offered help and opinions...this is a tad overwhelming for me right now....goes from totally healthy to almost dying is not something I can handle very well...I just want her better...I can not believe Im this attached to a PIGEON...WOW....Amazing...


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

RescueMe9962 said:


> Her Baytril is 20mg and she gets 0.2cc 2 times a day.....also on Metacam 0.5mg also 0.2cc 2 times a day. the dr called me today, she also has 2 common parasites in pigeons....need to pick up 2 more meds for that on friday....another $90 something bucks...lol..I dont mind the money, I just wish this happened on a payweek! I forgot what parasites he said, but i know one began with a "C" and the other with an "H"....he said neither is serious, but due to her condition he would like to treat it so that its not something else to slow down or prevent her healing from the egg..
> 
> I steamed up the bathroom for her 2 times today...this afternoon she got a nice shower after I steamed it up...and she took a major poop during! That made me happy....
> 
> ...


I think your best bet would be to find a source of liquid calcium at this point as anything edible wouldnt have the fast forward effects that is needed at this time for the contractions needed to pass an egg , that and maybe olive oil rubbed over her vent to help her pass that egg while your bird is on some kind of heating pad or in a hot bath if she is actuallly trying to pass the egg ..


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

RescueMe9962 said:


> Thank you Pigeonlove for all your encouraging words...it helps at a time like this when I sometimes feel like people may think Im not doing all I can..but I am..seriously...
> 
> Thank you Doboto for all you incredible advice! And thanks to everyone else out here who has offered help and opinions...this is a tad overwhelming for me right now....goes from totally healthy to almost dying is not something I can handle very well...I just want her better...*I can not believe Im this attached to a PIGEON...WOW....Amazing...*


That's that part that is so surprising to me because pigeons are intelligent and amazing companions.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, her Baytril dosage seems correct, how long is the prescription for? The other two parasites could be coccidia and helmiths when you get the prescriptions once you let us know what the drugs are, we will know what he is treating for.

I am glad the steam and baths bring her comfort, plus I am glad to hear she is eating a bit, but we need to keep an eye on this, as inappetence can sometimes be an indicator of other things going on other than she is just tender inside, how are her droppings looking? There is a lot of information out on the Internet, some better than others and I agree a person could worry oneself sick imagining all the things that could be wrong, or go wrong, but I think it's good to have an idea of the problems she is currently facing to be better prepared to deal with them if they occur.

She may not produce a second formed egg, but I mentioned the egg yolk peritonitis above to make you aware they ovulate a pair off eggs on a certain schedule and if the second egg is not formed, we want to be prepared that this ovulated egg did not end up somewhere it should not be and cause problems.



> The vet isn't even sure if she will produce another egg this time around because of her issue...he also said that if the remnants of her broken egg shell sticks to her uterus it will cause scarring which MAY cause her to be sterile and not produce eggs, which in her case would be the best case scenario....right?


I am a little confused by this statement, earlier, after examining the x-ray, I thought the vet said there were no egg fragments left in her. Is he now saying the x-ray may have missed picking a few fragments up? Anyway, I am not sure about the scarring making her sterile being a best case scenario, as bacteria seem to like pockets of scarring to cause their mischief and she may end up with reoccurring oviduct infections. Pidgey, one of our best members on this stuff, really would be the best person to opine on this. I'll PM him to have a look at this thread if he has time.

The cuttlebone should be OK, make sure the pieces are not too big though. The thing with calcium is that it needs vitamin D to be properly absorbed and put to best use by the body and the pure cuttlebone does not have vitamin D in it, but it's better than her not having it, plus she may some vitamin D from other sources like the bread from your peanut butter sandwiches , but LokotaLoft is right about a proper source of calcium.

We all want her to get better, but need to be prepared for a few different scenarios in case they occur.

How about a weight for her and any luck with the metronidazole?

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

The vet did NOT do an xray...he looked inside her with a microscope type thing...

I did ask about the other med, he said it wouldnt help her current issue...

I always thought pigeons were amazing animals, Im just shocked that I have fallen so deeply in love with one..and totally surprised how incredibly loving they are to their people...

You mentioned vitamin D...could she possibly have a tiny bit of milk along with her cuttlebone for the vitamin D?

The egg was broken inside her on Monday...it was her very first egg ever...the runny egg white looking stuff that was coming out of her since the breaking has almost completely stopped...My question is if she was to lay another egg, when would it come? Nothing Tues or Wed...Im just wondering when to expect it...

She has stopped a lot of her "chatting" to me...while she was doing her nesting she didnt shut up! Now she doesnt really do too much of it anymore...Im guessing that is because she is finished nesting? I took her nests away...cant tell if she misses them or not...I even took away her cat cubicle that she loved to hang out in, which is where she had her nest..I will probably give her back the cubicle, minus the straw and nesting goodies that she collected...she worked soooo hard on it..I felt bad breaking it all up (actually I lied..I didnt break anything up, I just took it all away from her..but her nest is still intact...I dont have the heart to ruin her creation...its not really a "nest"...she just kind of piled stuff around and would lay in the middle of all of it...

She is just too darn cute...I just hope she is ok for the day tomorrow...like I said she will only be alone from 8:30 am when I leave for work, I will come home on my lunch hour, from 1pm-2pm and I get out at 4:30, so she wont really be alone all that long...but I will be a nervous wreck tomorrow while at work and thinking about her...

I worry way too much about this little girl...

And all you guys....you are amazing! 
Thank you all soooooo much for caring about my little Cher-Ami....


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

That KJ Jelly will stop her insulation and make her cold---don't spread too much of that around. When this affair is all over with wash her good to get that off so that she won't spread it to her feathers because then if not kept warm will freeze to death. But your expert people who you are dealing with will let you know about that...c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I only have the jelly inside and just around her opening...its not all over her butt or all over her feathers...she isnt messing with it...I made sure not to get it where it shouldnt be.
)


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

I personally think you should put some fake eggs into her nest an see if she trys to go thru her setting/incubation process , pigeons even without laying eggs feel the need to set a nest at this time in their life and it would surely keep her from laying the next set of eggs sooner making her go thru this whole process all over again.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

How big are their eggs? What can I use as dummy eggs? I will do anything to STOP her from making more..


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

You can order them from any pigeon supply place and may find some wooden ones at a craft store. I'd guess they're a little bigger than a good sized pecan. Good luck!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962, I took your statement that "No egg fragments were seen inside her" to mean that they did an x-ray to look for egg fragments, they would show up as "hot spots" on an x-ray, and not that they scoped her, I am clear on this now. 

I am not sure I agree with your vet that metronidazole would not help her current situation, but I think I understand why he made it. In all likelihood the Baytril she is on, by itself, will be able to deal with any infection issues. I suggested the metronidazole as sort of "insurance", what I mean by this is that in all probability co-treatment with metronidazole will not be necessary, but on the off chance that she where to develop a "mixed infection", an infection made up of aerobic bacteria and anaerobic bacteria she would also have coverage for the anaerobic part of this event with the metronidazole. As I said before, I try and take the perspective what would I do if the bird where mine and I can only say that I would be also treating with metronidazole if it where one of my guys having the same issues as Cher-Ami is currently having. If I can push the odds, even fractionally, toward a more favorable outcome, with a drug that is shown to be safe, well tolerated and effective that's what I want to do. We mostly use metronidazole to treat the common infection of canker (trichomoniasis) in Pigeons, but for your reference here is some information on this drug:

http://www.my-drugs.com/metronidazole-treatment.shtml

No, please do not give her milk, as her body does not produce the enzyme lactase needed to properly digest milk and milk products. You are much better of getting Caltrate with Vitamin D and "popping" her 1/4 of a tablet and for future use ordering in one of the liquids from one of the Pigeon supply houses made for our guys. While on the subject of Pigeons supply houses, for under $100.00 you could also order in a few meds to treat a majority of illnesses and infections our guys are prone to, it's always a good idea to have a small a cache of meds on hand, as I don't know if it's just me, by they seem to like to get sick on weekends where immediate vet help is not an option.

Under normal circumstances, had she laid her first egg Monday, instead of it having to be removed, she most likely would have laid her second egg yesterday. Since she hasn't, we need to be on guard for a few things. The first is that this second egg did not become malformed and become an artifact in her, a sort of blob of possible yolk/tissue/malformed shell, they will sometimes pass these on their own, but because I am unsure of the viability of her reproductive system, there is a chance that such an artifact could remain inside her attracting bacteria and infection could set in around where it is lodged. The second, as mentioned before, is egg yolk peritonitis, where the egg may have gone into her abdomen (this is the beginning egg before it is coated with its shell), where if it did, hopefully it will be absorbed, but could cause a life threating infection if it isn't.

RescueMe9962, I am keeping us a little focused on the "what ifs'" and the bad things that could happen for a reason, it's because it has been my experience that as soon as you start feeling too soon that things are going well and everything is going to turn out all right, you are many times caught off guard. If your are being proactive and looking for early signs of things turning the wrong way, it allows you more time to catch things and start treatment before they become critical.

I think that LokotaLoft's suggestion of getting some fake eggs and letting her set them, if she will, is quite a good idea. So you know, I do not use fake eggs anymore, my guys just will not reliably set them more than a week it seems anymore. I have a drawer full of wooden, plaster and plastic ones. I think it is something they may be sensing when they turn them. What I now do is get infertile Quail eggs from the grocery store, because they are mottled brown, I paint them using white Krylon H2O spray paint, takes just a few minutes and they will now reliably set these to sometimes over three weeks before abandoning them. Here is some info on the non toxic paint I use:

http://www.krylon.com/environment/h20/

Things may just turn out all right for Cher-Ami, but we need to be very on guard for the next little while and not take anything for granted.

Please don't forget we still need an accurate, current weight for Cher-Ami. This is best taken early morning before eating or drinking, to be as close as we can to "real" weight.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE! HOUSTON, WE HAVE AN EGG...WELL, HALF OF ONE.....

I came home for lunch and gave her another warm bath and she floated around like a duck for about 15 minutes...Last night I had set up a vaporizer, and had the steam blowing into her cage, with towels around the rest...and she had my turtle's heat lamp on top of her cage...it had to be like 95 degrees in here when I woke up this morning!

When I came home from work at 4:30 she was happy and then she was bobbling her tail ever so slightly...I decided being she was going to get her meds at 8:30 I would give her another swim at around 7:45...As I was filling up the bathtub and went to go get her to bring her for her swim, under her butt I found an egg! I took her and put her into the bathtub and I went and got the egg to inspect it as she was swimming...when I took it out I seen that it was exactly HALF an egg, cut longways...the egg looks to be quite rough, thick, and yellowish...I dont know where the other half is...now comes the major question....
WHICH FREEKIN EGG WAS THIS???? Was this the egg that was broken on Monday, that finally worked it's way out? Was the other half all broken and did she pass it in little pieces so that I didnt notice it? Or is this the SECOND egg??? I thought her issue was over, but that question is now in my head....I put the egg in a ziploc bag and into the fridge...Why? I have no idea, but I did...

I will continue with all her meds, swims, and cleaning of her vent until I figure out where the heck we stand...I wish the eggs came out with numbers stamped on them so I know which egg this was! LOL

Another question....Saturday night I started to notice her feathers around her beak where her beak meets her face, and behind her eye, had turned BLACK...and it continued to get more and more black..I had tried washing her face but it didnt come off...Sunday is when she really started acting sick and I realized it was a bound egg most likely. When took her to Vinnie on Monday I asked him what it was....he said "It's not a good sign..it could mean stress, respitortory issues, or infection...After he broke the egg I again mentioned the blackness and he said "Oh, that will go away now that the egg is gone"....
I had asked the vet about the black on her face, he said he never heard or seen that before...I also asked a friend who has 14 birds of all different types, mostly parrots, and he never heard of it either..
Since she has gone to the vet and started her meds, the black started to go away...as of today its completely gone...So, I find it weird that nobody else that I asked about it ever heard or seen that in a bird before, but yet Vinnie didnt seem surprised or confused by it...Maybe its a pigeon thing? Has anyone else ever heard or seen that in a sick bird?

Now the big question....what is my next step? Will continue the warm bath therapy until Im sure she is done laying.,.maybe a week or so? What do you guys think? If anyone has an email address and would like to see a pic of the egg, I will take it and send it to you...I tried to upload a few new pics on here but for some reason its not letting me because its saying the pics are not pictures...LOL...who knows...

Both Cher-Ami, and I soooooooooo appreciate all the help, advice, concern, and love we have received...I read some of the posts to her...I wanted her to know people care about her...I think you guys pulled her thru!

Oh, and I called the vet today and asked if I should give her caltrate...he said no, that they can be overdosed on calcium??? I have no idea...but today after work I had her sitting in the sun to get some vitamin D for about 45 minutes, then less than 2 hours later the egg came...Hey, did I finally do something right????


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Something is clicking right I feel and I would think it is the orginal egg and that is good news, but it is still like you know a cautious situation. Never heard of anything black on the pigeons face like that maybe someone else knows about that??? I sure hope everything works out okay for you and your birdie...It's difficult at this time for you but you are doing the best that you can to save your birdie....Oodles of love and best wishes for you and your birdie....c.hert


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

The black stuff happens from stress, don't worry about it if its cleared up. I would bet money this is the 2nd egg, no way does it come out as a complete half egg after its been broke to clear the egg binding, she passed those other little pieces in her droppings. Generally speaking the 2nd egg is laid within a day and a half of the first, makes the time frame right, it has to be the 2nd egg. Also, I know nobody has said anything, but really the heating pads and lamp aren't necessary. The warm baths probably do help, but all the heaitng isn't necessary. Its almost June, its plenty warm, especially inside. Also, I don't know if you are giving her solely peanuts because thats what she likes, but if so she will develop boils from too much protein, not a good thing. You said you tried pellets before, she will eat them if she has no other option and learn to like them. Also, I know you think she likes the human food etc, but please stop this as well, make sure she is eating either grains or pellets. Make sure she has enough grit in order to keep her calcium and vitamins up, this could be an original problem with the egg binding to start with. Did Vinnie show you how to determine if she is egg bound? Its very easy to tell by touch, but can't really explain over the net. You asked about the petting on the back...when a cock bird 'treads' a hen, he jumps on the back in order to breed her, hence you are simulating the breeding procedure in the bird, activating the laying process. If you ever watch pigeons in a nest box they continuously preen and 'cuddle' each other again simulating the mating and breeding process. All these things are certainly sweet but don't help the bird. Any other questions keep asking, I'm sure I have missed something or maybe I wasn't clear about something.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

C.Hert, I was thinking it was the original egg too because of its condition..it looks OLD..not a happy looking egg...So, do you think she still has one to pass? Does all this sound like she is possibly on the road to recovery? The egg was broken, and it passed today...so when do you think the 2nd egg will come, and when can I stop "waiting" for it to come? Can there be a chance she wont make a 2nd egg because of her trauma? Either way, she will still continue to take her swimming lessons...by next week with all these swimming sessions I will no longer have a pigeon, but a duck! I will have to join a site called DUCK TALK!... I still dont think I have a normal bird...how many other people have heard of a pigeon floating around like a duck? I have it on video..its hysterical..


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Matt, everyone kept saying to keep her very warm...even the vet...they all said keep her between 85-90 degrees...

Now Im really confused about this egg...which one was it? LOL

She is back to eating her seeds...I had bought her dove mix a few months back and it had pellets in it and she hated it...I just tried to give her more pellets and they are now all over my room...she literally THREW them back at me....she will not even try them...

She had grit right along...and she must have been munching on it in the past couple days because a lot of it is gone from her dish....

She also has a cuttlebone, that she would rather STAND on than eat..LOL...

If this was the first egg, when and where the heck will I meet the 2nd one? If its the 2nd egg, where the heck is the first one? Im soooooo confused


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

There is a disagreement here for I think it is the first egg and thats why the shell is rough it did not get its final coating and I do believe there will be a second egg coming out and this would be a blessing. I think the egg was popped too early and when Vinnie pushed on it --it broke in half----I could be very wrong---but the vet will know when he takes an xray and I sure hope that second egg appears tomorrow or next day that would be wonderful...and keep in contact with that vet...and I will help you on half your xray fee--have him take an xray to see where that second egg is----but god willing she will deliver it tomorrow or the next day. Keep her warm--moist heat ---but like Matt said not too too hot---and at this time just watch her expecting a normal delivery of that second whole egg. Matt food selection I would do the same---don't feed her nothing out of the ordinary for pigeons---no peanuts---mixed seeds and wait and make a appointment with you vet as soon as possible so that he can find out if there is a second egg attempting to push through.....c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Matt, this is gonna be soooo hard to not cuddle this bird! What do I do when she comes to me on her own for a short cuddle? She has been cuddling with me since about Nov or December when she first started...She didnt start nesting until mid April...Does this mean for the rest of her life I cant give her the daily 30 minute cuddle sessions? Oh, say it isnt so!


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

C.Hert, that was very nice of you...the vet didnt think she really needed an xray...and what you said about the egg being the first one does make sense...maybe it was broken too soon, but even Vinnie said she was in distress and was pushing like crazy trying to get it out...

C.Hert, I need to pick up another $100 of meds tomorrow...I simply cant afford even half the xray at this point...Im hoping she will pass another egg within the next couple days like you said, then maybe it wont be needed??? I dont know what to do! I wish I had a money tree...Im still recovering from a $32,000 vet bill for my dog that I lost last year...she had diabetes for the last 4 years of her life and her entire bill for the 4 years added up to actually closer to $36,000...I still owe my vet $3,500 from her vet bills...the birdy goes to a completely different vet than my dog did....So I never minded paying huge vet bills, but I simply cant do that right now....Its not easy...my dog will be gone a year on June 22nd and no matter what I cant catch up with her darn bill...I always paid as I went, but her last 2 hospital stays were like $1,600 each so I had them put me on a payment plan...Im still drowing in her bills..

I am doing all I can financially for her...right now, I would do anything for her, but I dont know where this money is gonna come from! LOL

C'mon Cher-Ami...make mamma proud,,,pass that 2nd egg!


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Matt, you HAVE heard of the black on their faces? Nobody else seems to and I couldnt find anything online about it...do you know of a website where I can read about that?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

God I wish this site had instant messages or chatrooms..would be sooo much easier to talk to all of you on real time...anyone out here on Facebook? Look me up if so...If this link doesnt work, do a search for Dawn Carman, NJ..email address, [email protected]nd me and I will accept you!

http://www.facebook.com/dawncarman?v=wall&story_fbid=122677811086196#!/dawncarman


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Sometimes when a pigeon has her first egg it can be very hard on the bird especially if it is a immature egg but it amounts to a watchful situation with a Avian vet on hand just in case it is a egg bound condition. Knowing about that second egg is really important but you can wait some too as long as she continues to be stable and eating and drinking and not in too much distress. Pretend it is just a normal delivery of the second egg and just keep her peaceful and warm at this time===don't overdo the heat because it might be a normal delivery from here on out---but be cautious---line up your vet---and please send me a pm with your address if you wish so that I can send a small check to help you out with medicines at this time....c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

chert, you are an amazing person! I'd hate to see you do that, but it sure is tempting so that she can get what she needs to survive this! I have no idea what to do..Ive had soo much happen since Sunday with her that I cant even think straight...Im sooo focused on her getting over and done with this egg thing...I so wish she was a male right now...

The economy is sooo bad chert...Im sure you can use the money for yourself or your pigeons...Cher-Ami also said you are amazing...I think I see a pigeon smile on her little face..LOL..she has a lot of fans and people pulling for her...I seriously think all your encouraging words helped pull her thru this...


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I tend to pay too much attention to my pet's health...if they sneeze the wrong way I notice it and go into a GET THEM BETTER NOW mode...I picked up on my dog having diabetes just as she got it, which is why she survived 4 years with it...I lost her at 13-1/2 years old..she was diagnosed one month before her 10th birthday..

As for Cher-Ami, I noticed she wasnt herself..and I started reading online and here and all signs pointed to being egg bound....Im so glad that I caught it when I did...Im glad she wasnt a bird that is kept outside or I may have not caught it...


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats very true what you say about if she was an outside bird but one gets to know their pigeons really well after a time and you would have pick it up even if she was an outside bird because you are just that type of person. You need to become more patient and let the processes work or at least give them a chance to work then you can make good decisions. If that second egg comes out in a crazy way then you saved your birdies life.
Don't be too hard on yourself time to relax a little bit but be watchful but time to listen to some music---soft music--your birdie will like that too. Keep an eye on things and get your vets hours or some vet that might be on duty in an emergency just in case but I am sure that second egg will appear---at least I pray for that for you.....pm me please with the details...c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Please explain what you meant by the egg coming out in a "crazy way"? It it gonna be colored and shiny and pink like an easter egg? LOL


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

My sentences are not too good but what I meant was just this......nothing to do with the egg.......In a crazy way you probley saved your birds life....swimming like a duck....etc...
now if we get that second egg out........c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Chert, if you can see her floating around the tub you would crack up..she looks sooo content, and floats like a duck...I was gonna give her a little yellow rubber ducky to hang out with in the tub, but guess what? ALL THAT KEPT GOING THRU MY MIND WAS IF I DO THAT MY LUCK CHER-AMI WOULD THINK ITS ANOTHER REASON TO MATE! You know you have problems when you even want to mate with bathtub toys...especially those that look anything like birds! I think her beanie baby "KuKu" started this whole mating process...Last thing I need is for a yellow rubber duck to set me back!

Chert, meant to ask...how many birds do you have and what are their names?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I have about 65 birds and they are in a loft and I have a dog by the name of Abby and she is a deaf dog but does wonderful and knows sign language (home made sign language)....Good luck with your birdie......c.hert


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Hey Rescue, sorry for taking so long to respond. Yes, see the black stuff all the time on the face, can happen after a long hard race, raising young, anything that would or could cause the body undue stress. Usually some good R&R will fix that in a day or so. I don't know of any websites that discuss it, just something that pigeon people learn. I will add you to facebook, obviously my name is Matt Bell, so you will know its me. You can message me there or send me a private message here, or just keep posting in the forums whatever you prefer.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Wow Chert...how do you keep track of each birds individual needs? How can you notice with so many birds when one is sick? Do you breed and race them? I dont think I can ever race pigeons..I would be sitting outside by their loft waiting for each and every one to return home..and if some didnt come home I would freak! Like Cher-Ami was a lost homer...If she would have been one of mine I would have probably been hanging lost bird signs all over the US until I got her back..Im crazy like that!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am kinda like you---I don't race birds for the same reason you give--waiting anxiously for the birds to return and things of that nature. I have a picture of my loft and some of my birds on the small talk forum...After awhile you kinda get to know the tempo of your loft--sounds--smells--different behavior and things of that nature.Everyone of my birds have names and there is a history behind each one--some good history ---and some bad history...and believe me I could write a page on each of them...I keep a book on things of that nature...and for me its fun to keep.. c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Someday I would like to have a loft outside with a few birds..Vinnie takes his to fly distances...but he also just lets them out to circle the sky over his house..that is what I would probably do...let them fly around the house, where i can watch every one of them...

Have you ever heard the story of the original "Cher-Ami"? its amazing..thats how I got her name..when I first found her I was calling her "Spirit" but I never liked it, and it didnt fit her...on New Years Eve her name was changed to Cher-Ami...I fell in love with the name..

Are any of your birds named Cher-Ami? It means "Dear Friend" in french and its named after the WW1 Pigeon hero..


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I heard of that fine name and I do know it is a famous bird that saved a lot of people.
Somebody here (one of the racing people) had a fine video on it that I really enjoyed. Its a nice name for your bird and who knows maybe way back when you might of had French hertitage of something that attracted you to the sound of the name it is pretty..c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Yep..I have some french in me...I loved the sound and meaning of her name..and it seemed to fit her immediately....

She is acting like a new bird right now..she must be feeling wonderful! Shes preening...and doing her normal bob of the head when I say "Bob"...she is soooo cute...for a few months she has learned to bob her head when I say BOB...I showed her by bobbing my head when saying BOB and she picked it up after only a couple times of me doing it...she also learned how to give kisses when I ask..LOL

She looks wonderful! Her coloring is back to normal..she is acting amazing...I know we are far from being out of the woods, but since she passed that egg she has been sooo happy and seems really comfortable...shes right now playing with her hanging bell in her cage...


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I need to find the link, but somebody also wrote a song called Cher Ami about the hero birdy...Its a beautiful song..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawn, I am glad to hear she has passed the remnants of the egg Vinnie collapsed in her. I was wondering what happened to it after you reported the vet said he could not see any egg debris in her.

I have been a little worried about the inappetence she was experiencing, as I mentioned earlier, this most times is a que from them that something is amiss and many times we just write it off as a passing thing, when these silent indicators need to be paid close attention to. It made me feel quite a bit better that after she wanted her regular food again after passing her collapsed egg.

I hate to disagree a bit with your vet again, but Caltrate is made of calcium carbonate, the same thing cuttle bones are composed of (just no Vit D in cuttle bones), and 1/4 tablet would be 150 mg. A bird in need of an immediate calcium boost will use what she needs and the rest will be eliminated. He is right about too much calcium being no good, but choosing to give a few doses this way can be very helpful to a bird that may be hypocalcemic. Plus, my vet said there is no problem doing this.

I made a fairly long post this morning and do not have much to add to it in the way of ongoing concerns, the concerns that I expressed in the post I feel still apply. We are days past when the other egg would have been due, and as mentioned, we need to be on guard for just what this egg may be up to. I don't think, with this many days past the due date, it will be what could be called a normal delivery.

Again, a reminder not to think that she is out of the woods, as I said, things with these guys can take unexpected turns, so please be very aware of even small changes in her behavior or how she is presenting to you. Weight? How many days of meds where prescribed?

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Karyn, the doctor said to keep her on the meds for 2 weeks...I am picking up 2 more meds tomorrow for her parasites...and I have no idea why the doctor said he didnt see any fragments when he looked, so thats why Im unsure what egg she just passed..Im continuing all the therapy i have been doing, keeping her warm, warm baths, etc..I had set up the vaporizer last nite, put an electric blanket over her cage, and had her toasty warm...I was dying from the heat when I woke up, but this is all about Cher-Ami and not me so I will deal with it...She had a nice warm swim today at lunchtime when I came home to check her, then about 45 minutes out in the sun after work...she passed the egg less than 2 hours after her sun exposure.

I would like to get the xray, but funds are very low now...very....

Im not letting down my guard..although I do see major improvement, I know we are far from safe right now....
by looking at her right now, she looks like she is back to her normal self like she was before all this happened...I think she knows she feels better too...I can see it in her face and movements...and she has a huge appetite...except for the pellets that keep hitting me in the head when she tosses them out of the cage...she really wants no part of them...

How do we even know her "due date" if the first egg was removed on our schedule, not hers? It was removed Monday, but I dont know when it should have been delivered...

I wish I can get a sex change on her so I dont have to worry about egg binding ever again...I would like to know if anyone out here ever used the injection the vet menitoned to stop ovulation...was it successful? I cant believe Im looking into birdy birth control...I thought I raised my girl to show some morale! Silly girl..


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Well peeps, time for bed....thanks for everything, everybody...I hope tomorrow brings Cher-Ami an egg, if needed....and I wish everyone out here and their featherd, scaled, or furry kids a HAPPY FRIDAY! <3

Dawn & <3 Cher-Ami <3


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962 said:


> How do we even know her "due date" if the first egg was removed on our schedule, not hers? It was removed Monday, but I don't know when it should have been delivered...


Dawn, we can't know her "due date" with exactness, but we can surmise a few things. The first is that for a hen that does become egg bound and in distress, I don't think this would usually happen with a new egg that has just completed its full formation inside her. It would have to be in there for a period of time of being "stuck" for bird to start to show symptoms such as constipation, labored breathing, lethargy and swelling. So she could have actually been due a period of time before she became so distressed.

Second, we know a pigeon's ovulation schedule is a fairly set thing. A hen is set to ovulate the first egg, so after it's fully formed and laid, the second one should follow about 44 hours later, so say two days.

We are now on Friday, so a good amount of time has passed by, if things were going "normally", a second egg should have already been laid, (which takes us back to the issues I said we have to be on guard for), since this has not happened and she shows no obvious signs of currently being in distress from being bound up by this second egg, we need to be vigilant for the time being.

The best case scenario for her would be that there are times a young/firsttime hen will only produce a single egg in her cycle and the second best would be, as mentioned before, if there were indeed second egg, that this unfinished egg was absorbed by her body if it went astray.

I just wanted to mention that when suggestions are made at this forum, to people looking for help, most times they do not come from a "let's try this and see what happens" approach, but from years of experience of caring for these wonderful birds. I want to gently remind you about LokotaLoft's suggestion of getting two fake eggs for her to sit is important, as I have had hens who after abandoning their fake eggs, as I mentioned I use before, under ten days later had produced another set. She may very well not sit them, but we should at least make an attempt to see if she will. Trying this is very important right now, as we do not want to have her desiring to produce more eggs, if we can at all help it. Also, and I know this is hard right now as I know you both have to comfort each other, no petting or stroking, as this will encourage the egg producing process to start again. Still need a weight for her. 

I must say my mind is much more at ease with your report on how she is acting and presenting to you, keep her under close watch.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Here is the update on Cher-Ami...I picked up her other 2 meds from the vet on Friday...One is called Septra Liquid suspension...200 mg...she got one dose of 0.3mls last night, and Im to repeat it weekly 2 more times....and she also got Panacur 100 mg, and she also gets 0.3 but twice a day, along with her 2 original meds...

I also picked up caltrate with vitamin D and gave her 1/4 tablet last night...I also picked up soluable vitamins that go in her water..Its just the standard multi-drops by 8in1 and its made for all birds....I also got her a "cage protector" disc to keep mites and stuff away from her.....

Yesterdays meds came to $ 96.51....but Im thinking its kinda good to have all these meds on hand for after this problem is over in case another problem comes up in the future, I will be better prepared...How long will the Baytril stay good? Its in the fridge as instructed..

Now I need to explain her current behavior..she still didnt pass a second egg, and doesnt looks like she will...I felt all around and I dont feel anything...and she doesnt make any noises if I apply pressure anywhere...but she is showing signs I DO NOT LIKE..

She doesnt have a nest anymore...Im gonna start out saying that...but when she did, she did a lot of "chatting" to me...I couldnt even clear my throat and she would chat to me...if I made eye contact with me she chatted...if I turned over in bed in the middle of the night and she heard me, she chatted....then the egg binding happened...and the chatting stopped...and I forgot to mention the kissing, and rubbing of her beak and face all over my face and hand whenever I went near her...

She is starting ALL of that again..today....I cant even say one word or she chats to me...if I go near her, she starts rubbing her face on me...she seemed to be rubbing her butt on the bottom of her cage before while chatting...and she started something new...puffing up her head and fanning out her tail and pouncing on my hand and rubbing her face all over it...she is acting overly happy....does this mean she is gonna lay again? I dont know how to stop this...I cant even say one word to her and she chats like crazy..Im NOT petting her back...but just touching her face, neck, head, feet, anything sends her into this frenzy of kissing and chatting like crazy...Am I doing something horribly wrong? This bird is just so full of affection its spilling out everywhere...Im trying not to provoke eggs, but I cant even breathe around her or she starts lovingly chatting, flicking her wings,, huddling down real low and making lovey noises...Im at a loss..I cant stop this short of ignoring her..
If I walk away from her during one of her moments, I hear her running back and forth in her cage, then when I return she is NOT happy I left...

She hasnt had a warm bath since Thursday night.....she has no swelling anymore...no straining...she is pooping good, but it is a bit runny, but Im thinking that is because she is on 3 liquid meds...Im still running the vaporizer blowing steam into her cage at nite while we are sleeping...still keeping her very warm overnights...wanted to get her out in the sun today but it was overcast, but she was outside for about 3 hours yesterday afternoon...

What can I do now? She had her caltrate..she is being kept warm and with vapor....does all this sound like she is gonna lay again, and now that she has calcium in her and hopefully her body is now more prepared to lay, do you think if she does it will all go well? 

Now the major problem is I can not curve this birds affection...I think I created a monster...I guess having her since august and cuddling her and handling her way too much caused this problem. I dont know wheather to be flattered or angry with myself..


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Oh, and should I be continuing her warm baths? What SHOULD I be doing for her at this point, and what should i NOT be doing at this point?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please take her off the panacur. Most vets don't realize that it's toxic to pigeons. Panacur is fenbendazole and here is an article for you to read.




The commonly used anthelminitic drugs Fenbendazole and Albendazole are toxic to pigeons. 

410 pigeons of various species at San Diego Zoo and San Diego Wild Animal Park were examined alive or dead. All birds were healthy at the start point, and kept during a period of 45 days because of quarantine, relocation, or presale health cheque for observation. The symptoms looked for were weight change, leukopenia (too few white blood cells), bone marrow changes (less or more bone marrow than normal), small intestinal changes (injuries of the inner lining of the intestines, coursing diarrhoea and malabsorption) and survival. 

The results looked as follows: 
Treatment given Weight Leukopenia Bone Marrow Intestinal Survival 
No treatment Up 4,6 % 12 % 33 % Better All normal 91,7 % 
Albendazole Down 13,3 % 100 % 83 % worse 77,8 % injured 66,7 % 
Fenbendazole low Down 8,3 % 83.3 % 78 % worse 91,7 % injured 75,4 % 
Fenbendazole high Down 18,8 % 100 % 30 % worse 50 % injured 66,7 % 
What seems obvious is that both the drugs are disadvantageous to the pigeons. In all cases the pigeons loos weight after a treatment. Also, most pigeons develop leucopoenia. The fewer white blood cells in the medicated pigeons cause them more susceptible to bacteria and other microbial intruders. This might explain why the survival rate of the treated pigeons is lower then the untreated (controls). Most pigeons that died suffered from an infection. The bone marrow in involved in the production of blood cells, and in the treated birds the bone marrow was suppressed. Furthermore, the majority of the birds get more or less injured intestines, probably from these drugs. 

So, why should we give the pigeons one of these drugs? Actually, this report point very strongly that these drugs must never be used unless they are absolutely needed. If you think the birds have got worms, the droppings must be tested by a veterinarian or a parasitologist to confirm the diagnosis. The best would be to test the droppings from each single pigeon, and only treat the birds were worm eggs are found. If intestinal worm infection is diagnosed on the loft, cleaning is very important to get rid of worm eggs in the dung. If you want to give any medication, any remedy containing albendazole ( like "Valbazen") and fenbendazole (like "Panacur") should be avoided. Because chemical similarity, it is likely that also flubendazole (like "Flunebol"), is harmful to pigeons. 

Ivermectine (IVOMEC) might be a better alternative for pigeons. I have used this type of anthelmintic in my veterinary practice for 17 years and never seen adverse effects. However in-depth investigations on possible negative effects on pigeons are lacking for ivermectine and related drugs. Treatment should therefore be avoided unless a diagnosis has been confirmed by the veterinarian. The study referred to concerns many species of wild pigeons, but it is very likely that fenbendazole and albendazole will also harm racing pigeons at least as much. Especially in periods of stress such drugs can be very harmfull. Actually, there are reasons to believe that such drugs can trig many diseases like trichomoniasis, coccidiosis, adenovirus and salmonellosis. More generally, the use of any drug should be limited. Many of the more successful lofts do not use drugs alt all, unless a serous contagious diseases is diagnosed by the veterinarian. Simply because drugs generally do more harm than good on healthy pigeons. 

Submitted by 
Nils Reither, DVM (veterinarian) NORWAY 



The complete article: Howard, L.L. et al.: Fenbendazole and Albendazole toxic in Pigeons and Doves. Journal of Avian Medicine and Surgery, 16(3): 203 -210, 2002.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

OMG! What do I do! She already had 3 doses!


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

And if I stop it what about her worms? Will that other weekly med and her baytril help kill the worms? What if the worms stay inside her? Isnt that bad? Now another thing I dont know what to do about...damn...


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

another behavior she has done since I found her, that I forgot to mention, is she sticks her beak inbetween my fingers and acts like she is trying to get food out of it...she does that thing shaking her neck like baby birds do while feeding....She still does it....Im taking this is yet ANOTHER mating thing? She isnt putting any food on my finger, she is acting more like she is trying to be fed, not feeding me...

I guess this needs to stop too..I suppose I should not allow her to do this?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RescueMe9962 said:


> And if I stop it what about her worms? Will that other weekly med and her baytril help kill the worms? What if the worms stay inside her? Isnt that bad? Now another thing I dont know what to do about...damn...


There are other things that you can use to worm her. Ivermectin is a good one, Pyrantel is another, and there are others. Others will probably come on and tell you what they use.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

If the vet prescribed something TOXIC to my bird, shouldnt I get a refund for the meds although I used 3 doses? Damn, that was $54.00 down the tubes!


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Could she die from the 3 doses of 0.3 ml each????? Why would he prescribe this???? He is an avian vet??? I dont get it..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You know, I was thinking the same thing. I'd bring it back and tell him or her. Print the article and show it to him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RescueMe9962 said:


> Could she die from the 3 doses of 0.3 ml each????? Why would he prescribe this???? He is an avian vet??? I dont get it..


No. If your bird is okay, then she is probably going to remain okay if you stop the drug. But I wouldn't give her any more.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Oh Jay, I plan to..its not even the money as much as we are on the road to major recovery over here..last thing I want is something so AVOIDABLE to kill her...something like a TOXIC freekin med prescribed by a VET...Im getting just a little bit teed off about this...thank GOD I posted the names of her new meds..and thank god for all the caring, wonderful people on this forum....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is an interesting thread about Panacur on P.T. if you care to read it.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/toxicity-of-panacur-fenbendazole-18973.html


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Tonight is she totally out of control! She is OVERLY mushy...OVERLY...she is chatty...happy...content...Im starting to wonder if there is viagra or some happy formula in these meds...its like she is on happy pills...Its actually pretty funny...

Does a pigeon usually "give paw"? Well, guess what? SHE IS! I held my hand out 3 different times, and each time she put her foot in my hand? 

What is wrong with this bird? LOL....

As we speak, she is sleeping on her belly, right next to me on my bed...NO, she will not stay here long..she just came over to me so I ignored her, and she laid down next to me...she wanted to cuddle or kiss or something but I ignored her...I will let her stay for a few more minutes then I will chase her away...I think she is part puppy...


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

NOPE..she is NOT getting that crap any more...what about the other weekly med? Is that one ok? and do you think it will possibly kill the worms too? I dont know why he gave me one med per parasite..he said she had 2 parasites...gave me 2 meds...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RescueMe9962 said:


> NOPE..she is NOT getting that crap any more...what about the other weekly med? Is that one ok? and do you think it will possibly kill the worms too? I dont know why he gave me one med per parasite..he said she had 2 parasites...gave me 2 meds...


I'm sorry. What two meds were they? And what two parasites?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

One was Panacur and one was Septra....I dont remember the names of her parasites but one began with an "H" and I forgot the initial of the other one, I have to go back and look..I posted the initials for both when I had the appt...

She is also on Baytril and metacam

The baytril and metacam are both 2 times a day, 0.2 ml....the Panacur was one dose a week, for 3 weeks...so I was WRONG before..she only got ONE dose of the Panacur..it ws the Septra that she had 3 of...

The Septra and the Panacur are 0.3 ml..the septra is also 2 times a day...the panacur was one time only so far..


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

One Parasite began with a "C" and the other with a "H"


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Did she have coccidia?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes, I think that was one


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

He said they were both very common parasites in pigeons..one was a worm..dont know what the other was..they found them in her droppings..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The septra would probably be for that. That's fine.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You're doing fine with her. I'd go back to the vet and try getting a refund on the Panacur. Bring the article with you. Good luck. Let us know how it goes. Good night now.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Good night Jay and thank you for the advice..Good night...However, Cher-Ami is CHATTING away..Its funny..I had to put her in her cage, and she paced back and forth...like a maniac....I covered her, put on her vaporizer, and she finally settled down..she is on her belly but everytime she hears me make a sound, she chats...its such a happy sound...and if she is quiet, and I imitate the noise she makes, she will do it back to me, the same amount of times I do it..I swear this bird can count...If I grunt 3 times, she will as well...If I bob my head, she bobs her head...
Tonite I am not initiating the chatting...she is...I suppose she is feeling better, but Im still curious if all this is because she is happy she is feeling better and NOTICES it herself, or if all this happiness is to lay another egg, because she was very happy last week before she had the binding, but not nearly as bad as now...


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I bought her a "pop up crate" that is made for dogs up to 70 pounds, for her to be outside with us when we barbecue on the weekends...all summer, we eat outside every saturday and sunday, so it will be nice to have her out with us..besides when Im outside she can be as well...its awesome..perfect for her...it pops back to the size of a record album, but thicker...and it is huge when opened...Do not worry, she will never be outside unattended...this bird doesnt leave my sight...for one second..

Shhhhh...she finally got quiet...

I wonder if she is going to have another egg...she found a stray piece of straw that I missed when I took her "nest" away, and she picked it up and was playing with it...she did that also before the binding...but this time it was more like playing with it..last time she would rearrange them in her nest...she was kinda throwing this and picking it up...

Im wondering if she still needs an xray if a 2nd egg doesnt come? And what are the chances she will bind up with this one as well? Im hoping being she is more prepared, and me too, this time around, all will go smoothly...Once they bind up, is that bad news usually for their laying future? Do I need to go into panic mode everytime she is gonna lay forever?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

What medicine should I ask for in exchange for the Panacur?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Here is the dog crate

http://www.amazon.com/SportPet-Large-Professional-Dog-Kennel/dp/B000NJCWH2


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

RescueMe9962: Years ago some wildlife rehabb centers when they got pigeons in proscribed a combination of drugs for canker:worms: and coccidiosis and this is what your vet is doing..They just automatically gave these pigeons they got this combination of drugs when they got them in assuming that they had these three things. Your vet is outdated and I would stop all drugs for now and get a second opinion for this would not hurt at this time...The dosage seems wrong to me as well....The one egg affair could be normal for the first egg laying experience and that would be just wonderful news for you and your birdie...In the back of my mind....I am still very worried about that second egg not appearing but it is possible to only have one egg---for older pigeons even only have one egg sometimes for I have a pigeon by the name of Andrea who had one baby in 5 years so it is possible and that would be the best scenerio here. I am sending you some dummy eggs and just get a second opinion on those medicines and stop all medicines and do this tomorrow and it won't hurt anything and keep a watchful eye on the birdie making sure she eating and drinking and things of that nature. I like the carrying case nifty because you can see her and transport her safely---neat...I am in the middle of loft enlargement and won't be able to post for awhile but people will help you through this on this thread..Glad the birdie is still with us......good sign.....Yesterday I worked 14 hours and today's another big one....Get a second opinion and I don't like the dosage on the Panacur...Make sure the new vet points on the drug dropper where the dose is with a magic marker marking the spot....Bye Bye for now.....c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawn, as the others have already mentioned, Panacure would not be a drug of choice, at least in most of our opinion for worming our birds. I want give you a little re-assurance that with one dose, I think she will be just fine, and that there are people on the forum that have used Fenbendazole and its cousin Albendazole (still do), with no harmful effects to their birds, but with much safer anthelmintics (wormers') out there, most of us make the choice to use one of these when needed. Most times I use Pyrantel Pamoate (trade name Strongid, 25mg/kg, once, then 10-14 days later, another single dose) or Ivermectin 1% (two drops to the back of an adult pigeon's throat, the same again 10-14 days later).

No worries on the other drug, in fact the Septra (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) that she was prescribed to treat her coccidiosis, outside of treating for this parasite, is a stand alone excellent antibiotic that will be useful, even for the short time she is on it, in working with the Baytril, to help clear any possible infection in her reproductive tract.

The behavior she is displaying is kind of what I suggested may happen, where she is going right back into reproductive mode. At this point, I don't think she will sit a set of eggs, you could always try though, but I do have one other suggestion for you. You need to turn her world upside down. What I mean by this is, if you could at all manage it, is to get a new cage (home) for her (perhaps cheap on Craig's List) and change everything in this new home she is familiar with, the place in the room her cage is kept, dishes, perches, and toys for new, unfamiliar ones. Think about your daily routine with her, feeding time, togther time, play time, whatever, and change it up. What this will do is try and put her a little off balance, where with new scheduling, surroundings and accouterments, her desire to "nest" may be abated for a while. If you can't manage a new cage, do the best you can with removing the old, get new ground covering (if newspaper, use toweling and vise versa), dishes, perches, toys and so on, this may help for now, at least to where we get her a little farther away from the trauma she has just gone through.

With the Caltrate, one dose is fine for now. See if you can get her some Pigeon Oyster Shell (oyster shell is natural Calcium Carbonate) from one of the pigeon supply houses. Here is one of the main suppliers I have been using lately, but there a few other good ones out there as well (they have many meds there as well to put together a small medicine chest for emergency use) says to mix with grit, but just supply in a separate dish, she will take what she feel she needs:

http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/cat...nsupplies.com/catalog.php?page=1&keyword=grit


Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

UPDATE:

I contacted the animal hospital my vet is affliated with regarding the Panacur...they gave me authorization to return the med for a refund...they still want me to talk to the doctor tomorrow morning before returning it....

Should I take the refund or should I request another med? If so, which Medication?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawn, if they diagnosed, through a fecal float, that Cher-Ami has worms then it makes sense to just exchange The Panacur for another wormer, that we feel is safer med. I mentioned two above with their respective dosing amounts and schedules, either would be fine.

Back to weight, Dawn I return to the weight issue once more, not so much for just "routine" reasons, but because I feel Cher-Ami's weight should be taken every day, (it's important to be consistent with the same time, early morning) for diagnostic reasons. If she where to begin to collect fluid in her abdomen, from peritonitis, well before you could easily see it, by noticing her abdomen being distended or her showing other symptoms, you would see a sudden gain in her weight from this fluid, again good to know to allow more time to proactive, instead of reactive. Also, if an egg where to form in her again, her weigh would go up suddenly over a few days.

It's not really my wish to worry you, I don't want you to panic if there are fluctuations in weight, but because of this very bad incident with egg production Cher-Ami will need to be closely monitored for the time being.

Karyn


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

In my opinion posting 109 Dobato sounds very reasonable and well founded. With the bird feeling so well since it passed the other half of the egg shell and liquid contents a second opinion that I suggest will not hurt. He might very well perscribe different medicines now in combination with a new wormer and he will take a new fecal test at this time and will perscribe drugs according to those tests that he will take. He can check the pigeons reproductive system to make sure everything is on the up and up and he can feel when a bird is swollen and full of fluid and this will make you feel a lot better. That Panacur to me was a red flag and it has side effects that should be considered and why continue it if there is a better one to use. I am glad you are getting a second opinion. When a bird is stressed their e-coli levels change as well as cocci levels and this shows up on the testing and in usual circumstances if a birds immune system is good they can naturally keep down the levels to normal range but canker and worms are a different story because a bird can have canker and you can't see it and as far as worms are concerned a bird could have worms with no worm eggs in the fecal test so a new opinion might choose different drugs under different circumstances and this is good and let the people here know about these new perscriptions because a lot of them are rehabbers and very knowledgeable about the different drugs...c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Heard from the vet. He wants to give her ivermectin but by injection? Says can be dangerous if given by mouth and it gets in her windpipe? Yes or no...waiting to hear before I make appt


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawn, Ivermectin by injection is fine, just tell him you would prefer her to have it SC (subcutaneous, means just under the skin) and not IM (intramuscular, directly into the muscle tissue). The dose would be 0.30mg/KG (this is roughly 1/3 of 1 (one) mg per Kilogram of body weight) for your reference, your vet should have this dosing, but this is the recommended dosing for pigeons SC.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Appt at vet tomorrow morning at 11:30


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats real good RescueMe9962 and it's needle time for the birdie..I am glad it is not me. lol...give the birdie a good pat...c.hert


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

I just want to let you know that I am in "AWE" of all you are doing for this little birdie! You are a true inspiration. Not only have you spent many hours taking care of Cher-Ami, but you have spent many hours researching information, and lots of time and money with Vet visits. You have listened to everything our experts here have to say...no matter how confusing it all may have become. You are doing such a fantastic job, and I just wanted to let you know it!!! Joni


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Aww thanks so much guys! Im trying my best..this bird deserves it...we have been cuddling since 7pm...made 2 attempts to put her back in her cage, she runs back and forth until I open the door and let her back out...I know I know, Im doing a bad thing but this time last week I didnt know if she was gonna pull thru...today was a week the egg was broken inside her...

I simply can not believe how good she is doing...the mushyness has increased big time...she needs to be touching me...she is chatting like crazy....

Im gonna need to go to bed soon so she is gonna have to go in the cage...its gonna break my heart....she is way too loveable today...I gave her a q-tip before and she was having a ball playing with it...maybe I can give it to her and see if she will play with it in her cage...that's pretty unlikely!

C.Hert...I received a nice letter today from an awesome person! You are the best!

I will update everyone tomorrow after her visit...

Do you all think I should give her the morning dose of the meds or should I wait until after her appt?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats neat and yea give her the meds but let the vet know....c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Im having a problem with her...she will NOT stop running back and forth in her cage...I covered it and she keeps peeking out....she has been very mushy for the past 2 days...I mean REALLY REALLY mushy...wants to cuddle...CONSTANTLY....When Im on my bed laying on my belly on my laptop. she comes over, hops on my pillow, and snuggles real close, making noises, and will stay like that for hours....Usually she doesnt give me a problem going to bed, but today she is...

Seems like she has been very active since Saturday...Only change was the new med Septra...Has anyone ever heard of that med making a bird very very clingy and not wanting to be in her cage?

Im probably concerned over nothing..LOL...Right now she is on the verge of getting a little annoying running back and forth...I cant stop her..she looks like one of those psycho zoo animals that run back and forth in their cage...


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

How long does she have to stay on this drug Septa? She does seem like you say to have more anxiety than normal. When pigeons get a little romatic they sound out a lot--one calls and the other one answers and they shake their wings and do nesting stuff but this pigeon sounds agited and too much. What did they give you the drug for and I think the drug is used for some kind of fungus and it might be hard on her. I don't know I wish someone would come on with information about side effects and stuff like this..She does sound too anxiety filled by running back and forth in the cage and this is concerning to me. How many days is she going to be on this drug and share this with your vet tomorrow and ask him about this drug and why is she taking it. I do know it is good for deep infections of the internal organs and maybe thats why but maybe the vet should reconsidered knowing how she is acting....c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

She settled down finally...she is to stay on the meds either 10-14 days..need to look at the bottle...she doesnt exactly seem agitated, just not happy to be locked in the cage away from me...she is ok now...settled down...and yes, she does keep calling me...and if I call back she does answer...the wings are twitching....

I am going to ask the vet about this new found behavior...I dont know if its that she is feeling better so is just showing it, who knows...

Oh, and when I just said she settled down..well, not anymore...I happened to make eye contact with her...she is at it again....I think I need to turn off all lights...this way she cant see me...

Oh I love her to death, but what a demanding little brat she is..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

c.hert said:


> How long does she have to stay on this drug Septa? She does seem like you say to have more anxiety than normal. When pigeons get a little romatic they sound out a lot--one calls and the other one answers and they shake their wings and do nesting stuff but this pigeon sounds agited and too much. What did they give you the drug for and I think the drug is used for some kind of fungus and it might be hard on her. I don't know I wish someone would come on with information about side effects and stuff like this..She does sound too anxiety filled by running back and forth in the cage and this is concerning to me. How many days is she going to be on this drug and share this with your vet tomorrow and ask him about this drug and why is she taking it. I do know it is good for deep infections of the internal organs and maybe thats why but maybe the vet should reconsidered knowing how she is acting....c.hert



The drug is for the coccidia that was found, and yes she needs it. I'm sure it isn't causing the bird any ill effects.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Its not septa----Its septra---disregard my last posting for I reread the spelling of the drug again and its Septra like you wrote and I was thinking of septa. I would hold off on the medicine doses tomorrow until you see the vet and let him know whats happening with the bird---all the anxiety she is experiencing in the cage--running back and forth and she did not do this before and share with him that you think it is more than just a sexual thing for she is agitated. Tell him you held off the morning dosage because of your concerns and maybe he will readjust her medicines after hearing about that. Ask him about side effects and do birds get agitated like your bird is in the cage and share with him that this is unusual for her....I don't know much about Septra but I would bring it up to the vet on your visit just to cover the bases.. c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RescueMe9962 said:


> Oh, and when I just said she settled down..well, not anymore...I happened to make eye contact with her...she is at it again....I think I need to turn off all lights...this way she cant see me...
> 
> Oh I love her to death, but what a demanding little brat she is..


Why not just cover her cage at night? Many people do. They like to be covered, as it is cozier and more private.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats a good suggestion cover the cage---but still bring the anxiety up with the vet..c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

c.hert said:


> Its not septa----Its septra---disregard my last posting for I reread the spelling of the drug again and its Septra like you wrote and I was thinking of septa. I would hold off on the medicine doses tomorrow until you see the vet and let him know whats happening with the bird---all the anxiety she is experiencing in the cage--running back and forth and she did not do this before and share with him that you think it is more than just a sexual thing for she is agitated. Tell him you held off the morning dosage because of your concerns and maybe he will readjust her medicines after hearing about that. Ask him about side effects and do birds get agitated like your bird is in the cage and share with him that this is unusual for her....I don't know much about Septra but I would bring it up to the vet on your visit just to cover the bases.. c.hert


She can't stop the meds. They are important. The birds behavior is because she doesn't want to be confined in the cage, that's all. Putting a cover over the cage will quiet the bird down.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

She would not be stopping the drugs just delaying them for an hour or two so she can talk with the vet and tell him about this new affair--psycho bird---in cage...c.hert


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Chert, she would be really late on the meds if I held off...she gets them at 8:00am and her appt isnt until 11:30, by the time we are done and I get her home, she wont get it until like 1pm..I might hold off on the anti-inflamatory/pain (metacam) and the Septra but give her the baytril....Maybe I will just call the vet and ask if I should give any or not..

Jay, yes, most birds like to be covered...every bird I ever had was covered and quiet at night...but you dont know Cher-Ami...Not your normal pigeon...doesn't like "alone time"...doesnt like "quiet time"...I have to be in her sight when Im home or she is not happy..She will sit happily on her balcony for hours as long as Im in the room..the minute I leave the room to use the bathroom she is off the balcony and waiting outside the bathroom door...funny thing is the only room she will run to if I go in it and call her is the bathroom...if Im in the living room and call her, she may or may not come to me...but if Im in the bathroom and call her she comes running...she is a runner..runs everywhere...not a flyer...she likes to flap and hop up and down...LOLOLOL..seeing it is a funny site..and she loves the bathroom..

I leave the cover a little open in the front because it gets too hot in there for her..the only blanket I have that will cover her cage is HEAVY...She'd suffocate...plus, with her being "sick" I want to keep an eye on her...I wake up thru the nite and look at her, then make a noise to her, wait for her to answer, then go back to sleep...
I dont know if she likes cuddling so much and because she didnt do it for a few days she is taking advantage of it, and therefore she became a bit "spoiled" about going in the cage...She's only in the cage while I go to work...She USED to be able to sleep out of her cage on her "balcony" or in her cubicle, but I took her cubicle away, and she doesnt want to sleep on the balcony, but with me...

Do you think I can put her cubicle WITHOUT the nesting materials back up? That can be a major cause here...she loved the cubicle before she had a nest...For those of you who don't know, its a pop up cube, that is made for cats to sleep in...It has a solid top, 3 open holes, and a solid bottom and back...It was her home out of her cage...I just realized that the cubicle missing could be a major problem to this clingyness....Can't I put it up and remove it if she starts showing nesting behavior? I dont even know at this point if Im supposed to allow her to run her course and allow her to do whats natural? 

I really dont think its a medicine or health issue...its more like she is trying to tell me she wants something, and I think it may be that darn cubicle...Why didnt I think of that before? I may be wrong..dunno..


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I think your on the right track it may be the cubicle and also birds are at a higher temperature than us and she might be too hot in the cage and not comfortable. Give her the medicines on time but if this nervousness continues let him know---you changed her living arrangement and she is upset and is trying to tell you of her dissatisfaction with this affair---poor birdie---hope everything continues good for her----and tell her to get ready for the needle tomorrow and pat her head...Goodnight now my friend...c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She may very well be missing the cubicle if that is what she is used to sleeping in. They don't like change any more than we do. She is a bird. When it is time for sleeping, cover the cage and put her to sleep. Use two towels if you have to. My Scooter is the same way about chasing us around the house. She is a handicapped pigeon who stays in the house. When it is time for sleeping, I cover the cage and say good night. I don't worry about whether or not she likes it. She is a bird after all. Cover her and say good night. The covering will quiet her down.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawn, please do not stop or delay her meds, I am familiar with the meds she is on and I have never seen them cause over agitation, she could just be feeling quite a bit better and wants to get back to "nesting", not good.

With the nesting, not much more I can say on this right now, I laid out in detail a plan to help change up her current comfort disposition in my post #109. I can not emphasize enough right now, how important it is for her not to try and produce eggs right now, potentially life threating again. The only other thing I can suggest, toward this effort, is to put a small mirror in her cage and see how she reacts, this sight of a "new bird" in and around her cage may make her feel less like nesting and no nesting material of nesting/cubicle.

Karyn


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Dawn...

About the cubicle...a member here had one for her pij and he LOVED it! In fact, he would "hide" things in his cube, including paper money! That was HIS home!

I hear you about the bathroom! Squeaks knows he has my undivided attention and he always comes in when I'm there. However, when he's in mate mode, I have to be careful to have him out in the living room with me, otherwise he would stay in there and chase out the cats who come to use the litter box!  If I can't find him, I just check in the bathroom and there he is, moaning and groaning calling me to come see him! 

Fortunately, the cats and I get some relief when he goes into daddy mode, because he will sit on his nest with Woe's non-fertile eggs for days at a time!

Oh, did I forget to mention that MR. Squeaks considers me his MATE??? 

WELCOME to the pigeon world!!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and the gang


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Cher-Ami had her shot...all is good....will update all later...my internet crashed on Tues being fixed today....will update all tonite...luv ya guys!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

light will stimulate egg laying as well.. some folks artifically shorten the daylight hours to help with laying issues.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Hey guys! Cher-Ami went to the vet on Tuesday and got a the shot of Ivomec...The dr said it is to be repeated in 2 weeks...Her weight was 15 oz....just under a pound!

She is still in that extremely snuggly mood...she now comes over and hops on my pillow and snuggles close and makes her baby groans...she even lets me lay her on her BACK and she goes to sleep on my chest....is that normal? I havent been able to find anybody saying their pigeon is THIS cuddly...Im thinking I handled her too much and it led up to this...I dont mind it at all...but she will literally cuddle from the time I come home from work until bedtime...no wandering around...just wants to snuggle up, cuddle, and sleep while Im working on my PC...

Her health seems to be pretty much back to normal....her poop is HEARTY for sure....she is alert...happy and doing great! She will get her last dose of her Septra tomorrow night, which was for 10 days....and she will get her last doses of the baytril and metacam on tuesday, which will be 14 days.. Im giving her about 1/8 of a caltrate every 3 days or so...she has multi vitamins in her water....

Oh and of course she still gets her daily foot and beak wash..LOL...Yes, I wash her feet and beak everyday...Im just out of control with this birdy...LOL

She is showing some nesting behavior...when she goes back in her cage she tries to make a nest out of her paper towel..and she found another twig..she carries it around in the cage....oh, and her favorite new toys are q-tips...she LOVES them! She throws them...rips the ends off...and I put some in a plastic sandwich baggie and she loves to take them all out...I put them back in, and she takes them out...its a new game..

She totally learned how to give kisses when I ask now...so that make 4 things she learned...she BOBS her head when I say BOB....she kisses when I ask..she steps up on my hand when I say "up"...and when I say "Do poop" she goes in a circle then poops!

Damn, people should get pigeons instead of parrots! Of course, Im still dying for a pet crow...I have forever...someday, someday...

Now, I guess I have to worry Cher-Ami is gonna pop out another egg? When can I expect it? And if I get dummy eggs, what if she already has eggs developing inside her and I put dummy eggs in and she sits on them...then what happens to the eggs inside her? Will she still have them? A friend is sending me some dummy eggs, should be here by Saturday....I dont know when to put them in the cage, how to introduce them to her...Advice?


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Oh yeah, and about the vet visit...funny story...we were in the waiting room...I had her cage covered so people didnt see what I had in the cage...there were other people in the waiting room, about 3 dogs and 4 cats...they were all quiet...Cher-Ami decides she is gonna have a cooing episode...a LOUD one...One lady asked a man with a dog "How is your dog making that noise like a pigeon?" then I said, "No, that is a pigeon" and i uncovered the cage...A man let his Doberman puppy look into the cage, and Cher-Ami started chatting to the dog! Not scared at all...just literally trying to talk to him...it was extremely cute...everyone was amazed how chatty and un-afraid she was....I have figured out that no matter where I take this bird, or what I do with her, she does NOT show any nervousness....she does not freak out going to strange places...as long as I am with her, and within eyeshot of her, she is fine and calm....
Another thing I find weird...is that this bird has no fear of new surroundings...Like I said, if she knows Im there, she is as calm as can be...
Im gonna buy a doggie stroller for her...this way I can take her down the shore and walk the boardwalk with her....
This bird is better than a dog!


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Well, she sounds like a wonderful little girl! Good luck to both of you.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

She does sound amazing. I know your probably safe but since she isn't afraid of anything if she ever does get loose and fly away she would probably die because she doesn't have the fear factor. When she is in the stroller, how does she not fly away? People have LOST MANY birds thinking they wouldn't fly away and they did and they were never seen again, so be careful. I think she needs to be introduced to Willie in Florida with Roadrunner mike the owner. He is another special bird that thinks its a dog or is better than a dog. Its a once in a lifetime pet and I already know you know that. Glad she is better. Glad I found you on Facebook.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

RescueMe9962 said:


> Now, I guess I have to worry Cher-Ami is gonna pop out another egg? When can I expect it? And if I get dummy eggs, what if she already has eggs developing inside her and I put dummy eggs in and she sits on them...then what happens to the eggs inside her? Will she still have them? A friend is sending me some dummy eggs, should be here by Saturday....I don't know when to put them in the cage, how to introduce them to her...Advice?


Dawn, the real worry going forward is not so much that she is going to pop out another egg, but just what the current state of health of her reproductive system is like. Up untill today, we still are unsure of the status of the second egg she was due to produce. I will mention again, did her body absorb it, did it become malformed and remain as an artifact inside her, where they are prone to attact bacteria, hence infection, or did she even produce a second egg at all.

Without trying to worry you too much, until she produces eggs in a regular, event free way, you should consider that she could go critical again when she cycles once more to produce eggs.

I mentioned before that I think it would be wise to have a small cache of meds on hand for emergencies. Vinnie breaking the egg inside her probably saved her life, but there are complications that could have arisen shortly after he did this, one of them is an acute infection. You are going to use all her antibiotics up right now, so it really would be good idea, in case she does get into trouble again, to have some on hand to start her on immediately, instead of having to wait until she gets in to the vet. When these guys become really ill, time is of the essence and anything we can do to buy more time for our side, well, we're just better off recognizing that in advance and trying to do so.

With the dummy eggs, the way it works is you allow the hen to lay both of her eggs and then slip out the real ones, for dummies. They won't usually sit these eggs unless they are in nesting mode, but when you get them try them under her and see what happens.

Glad she is acting so well again, but it would be remiss of me not continue to remind you that cuddling = mating behavior = stimulation of egg producing cycle = eggs = we don't really know do we, but I would like to give her some distance for things to settle down in her before finding out.

Karyn


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Mindy, the stroller is made for dogs..and it zips all the way closed...its kind of like a dog carrier on wheels, shaped like a baby stroller..

Dobato..I will still have about a half bottle left of each med once she is done...her baytril and metacam were both for 14 days, and tues will her her last dose..and her septra will have even more as her dose was for 10 days and tonite is her last dose...so I will have some meds on hand...

Im keeping a very close look at her behaviors and body language...any sign of trouble she goes back to the vet...Dobato, Im still on guard with her situation...so far, so good..


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

PLEASE SEE MY OTHER POST...I FOUND A BABY DOVE? THINK ITS A DOVE? See post "Cher-Ami might have a sibling?" I need advice


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Dawn, another possibility for Cher-Ami, once she is in excellent health, would be one of Boni's PGWear diapers for pigeons. They also come with a leash/tether that could help prevent her from flying off by accident.

If you haven't checked out Boni already, here is her website:

www.birdwearonline.org

Sending Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and the gang


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Mr. Squeeks, I already have the flightsuit/diaper/leash...however she HATES it!

Im on my 2nd one because I did order the WIDE for pigeon, but the first one was really tight...so I threw it out...accidently..

Ordered the 2nd, in WIDE again, for pigeon, and still tight..she hates it..flops all over the place and walks backwards...its LOOKS tight...

The other sizes they have close to her is X-WIDE and WIDE plus or something...between the 2 I almost spent $50..not looking to waste another $25 if I cant get them to fit..


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

I wouldnt know if I should get Xwide of Wide Plus....no clue the difference..the standard pigeon one looks way uncomfortable..


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Dawn, you did the _same_ thing I did! I started with a Flight Suit for Squeaks because that was all that was around at the the time. I ended up with a suit that was at least _three_ sizes _bigger_ for Squeaks because the size for pigeons was too small! Being a racing homing pigeon, Squeaks wasn't exactly a dainty pij!! He wasn't that pleased with his suit either! 

Then, along came Boni, who designed and developed her PGWear. Squeaks was one of her "test" subjects! I can't praise her enough! 

First of all, one takes _measurements_ so there is no confusion on size. Each diaper suit is made *for your pigeon.* 

Second, there is less material, just 2 strips, a narrow band across the chest, the "poop" pocket under the vent and a velcro fastening over the back. 

Third, you can custom order your pigeon's suit design! 

Please check out the link I listed. In one of her areas, you will see Mr. Squeaks is in Super Power Pigeon outfit, complete with a small cape with an "S"...

Not only are Boni's suits easier to put on but the birds seem to adjust to them much better and faster! 

Hope this helps!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and MR. Squeaks


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

mr squeaks said:


> Dawn, you did the _same_ thing I did! I started with a Flight Suit for Squeaks because that was all that was around at the the time. I ended up with a suit that was at least _three_ sizes _bigger_ for Squeaks because the size for pigeons was too small! Being a racing homing pigeon, Squeaks wasn't exactly a dainty pij!! He wasn't that pleased with his suit either!
> 
> Then, along came Boni, who designed and developed her PGWear. Squeaks was one of her "test" subjects! I can't praise her enough!
> 
> ...



Now if that isn't a great advertisement for Boni's PGWear. She should hire you. If I was looking for something like that, your comment would certainly sell me. LOL.


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Im gonna go look NOW...and order one NOW! Will let you know after i choose...Oh damn..I need to get a tape measure...gotta wait till tomorrow and go get one..my old one was SO old that you couldnt read the numbers anymore..LOL


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Now I know you are all crazy and we should have a pigeon fashion show with the new outfits going down the fly ramp and we could take pictures as well and vote for the winner. I'm just as crazy as you all are and Mr. Squeaks pigeon sure does look spiffy in the outfit and I believe it has poka dots but mine I want hot pink for a black pigeon. Good to hear everything is well...c.hert


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

ROFL!!

Actually, I've been promoting Boni's PGWear since Mr. Squeaks was a "tester" when she was first getting started.

And, for those who have handicapped in-house pijies, Boni's PGWear is such a godsend...especailly, since they are "customized!" Takes the worry out of choosing a size!!

When I believe in something, I most certainly *will* promote! 

BTW, I am also a firm advocate of the paper towels: VIVA!! Years ago, a friend of mine told me about a PT called "Job Squad." I tried, loved and have used it through its name change. Since I am constantly doing poop pick ups with some balcony pijies plus my pijies who are not out enough to warrant PGWear, I've never found a PT that does a better job! Reminds me of strong, soft, tough Kleenex! Doesn't fall apart with use - a true "paper cloth!" Great for cleaning my glasses too! I tear it in pieces since I use so much! AND, those "choose a size" rolls are GRRRREAT! 

ROFL

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## RescueMe9962 (Aug 25, 2009)

Hey everybody! Sorry I havent been out here with updates...just had a really busy past couple of weeks at work and all...

Cher-Ami is doing wonderful! She comes up with something new everyday for me to laugh at...One of her newest things is what I call her "Lobster Hop"...she fans out her tail and jumps at me while making cooing noises when I come home....Its an adorable greeting I get everyday from her...

She seems to have lost interest in her nesting habit...been a few days since she attempted to make a nest...But the snuggling, that only increased..LOL

When I lay on my bed on my belly and go on my laptop, she waits for me to lay out her wee wee pad on my pillow then she hops on and lays on her belly and snuggles next to my face kissing me, cooing...and mostly sleeping while I do my thing on the computer....last night she was in that position sound asleep from 8pm until 1:30 am....happy as a clam....waking up to give me kisses and grab my eyelids with her pointy beak, then go back to sleep...I swear she is a puppy with feathers...

Her health seems to be back to 100%...Im making sure she has a completely balanced diet...She now has seeds AND pellets..and Im watching to see which she prefers, and actually she is going back and forth between the two...I dont want to change her over to a complete pellet diet yet because I had bought her this Hi-Cal grit that she absolutely LOVES...She sees me open the bottle and she does her lobster hop! She loves that stuff and it says on the bottle that if they are on a pellet only diet they should not be offered the grit...she loves it so much I cant take that away from her...

She is a FAST learner...As you know she BOBS when I tell her to...or if I bob my head she will repeat...she gives kisses when asked...she goes on my hand when I say "up"...she knows she must poop as soon as she comes out of her cage before she is allowed to cuddle or go on her "tour" of the house....
I bought her this food dish that she has to push a button with her beak and the front will open and drop her a treat...I have peanuts in it..she learned how to work it only after me showing her how to 4 times...and I found this really tiny basketball hoop with these adorable mini basketballs and Im now teaching her how to pick up the basketballs and trying to show her to put them in the basket....being she LOVES Q-Tips, I started to show her how to put the q-tip in the basketball hoop, and she did it 2 times! Today I bought her those cat toys that are plastic balls with a bell inside...they should be easier for her to pick up and put into the hoop....I didnt give her the cat balls yet...I will introduce them to her tomorrow...

Im thinking she will be ready for the circus by the time she is 2 years old!

I love my Cher-Ami...She is simply amazing...

(Oh and I sing to her too...puts her to sleep...She likes the song "Nobody does it better"...or "Baby your the best"..whatever its called...that song from the 70's...Im such a goof...but she likes it!)


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