# "Crow Baby" update, and his little pal...



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all,

 

Just a few casual sneps of just now...showing "Crow Baby" and his progress, and his affection for the little young adolescent Dove who is recovering from having been Cat-Caught and ill...

http://community.webshots.com/slideshow?ID=358621324&key=GOdVmQ


In checking the Link to see if it works, I notice that 'webshots' automatically edited the word 'Nipple' with hatch marks...

Lol...

Phil
las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,

Great pictures of "Crow Baby" & young Dove....you are right--in the one photo, Crow Baby looks just like Uncle Fester!!! LOL

Linda


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

I doubt that any feathers will ever grow on top of his head--it should end up being all scar tissue. This will have its pros and cons. Since he looks more like a buzzard than a pigeon, he may end up with some social issues later on (bless his heart!) so you might think about fabricating a toupee. Just a thought.

The "pros" are pretty much limited to just one--he shouldn't have a vitamin D deficiency owing to the amount of now-exposed-to-the-sun skin. Of course, he might have problems with sunburn up there. Goodness knows I do.

Seriously, I wonder if his upper beak is crossing because it's growth is impaired on one side due to the injury? I saw a special on TV once about an owl that had some kind of upper beak problem and "they" had to surgically install a prosthetic in order to save the life of the bird. Can you get a close up image (with flash) of his beak and post it?

You're doing great so far--he sure is in good hands!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey had writ - with quotes now in 'Blue'...

Phil,

"I doubt that any feathers will ever grow on top of his head--it should end up being all scar tissue." 


One would expect so...but I am holding-my-breath, so to speak...  

I have added some additional images which I took earlier to-night - for which the earlier link will still work for that 'Album' of my web-shot thing.


"This will have its pros and cons. Since he looks more like a buzzard than a pigeon, he may end up with some social issues later on (bless his heart!) so you might think about fabricating a toupee. Just a thought."

Yes! Very true...it would not attract the kind of attentions he would enjoy, from the ferals or others. So, for eventual outings one day, I may have to make him something of a Toupee in deed..stick it one with 'Spirit Gum' ike they used to do with fake Moustaches and so on in Vaudville...  

"The "pros" are pretty much limited to just one--he shouldn't have a vitamin D deficiency owing to the amount of now-exposed-to-the-sun skin. Of course, he might have problems with sunburn up there. Goodness knows I do."

Less to preen, or, just slide a towell over it once, after bathing, ought to do it.

Too, I am thinking of trying some 'Rogaine' on it, see what happens...

If anyone knows of any other products, please let me know..?

Too, in theory, I could bring him to one of those 'clinics' that do the Hair Transplants, and, have them do some 'small' select Feather Transplants from somewhere else on him...in theory! Should work I think..!

"Seriously, I wonder if his upper beak is crossing because it's growth is impaired on one side due to the injury? " 


Yes, the injury was to the top and somewhat to one side more than the other. It curved away from where the worst half of the injury was. And, it curved slightly 'down' also, leaving a gap between where the central 'bridge' of his upper Beak had been, (where it had merged into and between the former Wattles) and, the tip. Oone torn part of the lose area of what had been the central 'bridge' lifted up in a ragged way, and that is what retained the then dried bit of green 'Soup' I let it thinking it would do no harm and would flake off after a while. But it stuck there pretty good...


The upper half of his Beak is very weak there, and if I touch the dried Soup, the rest of the Beak visably flexes or moves from there down.

 "I saw a special on TV once about an owl that had some kind of upper beak problem and "they" had to surgically install a prosthetic in order to save the life of the bird. Can you get a close up image (with flash) of his beak and post it?"

I will try again soon to do so. It has been VERY difficult to get clear, in focus images of his face or head or beak...! I have tried actually many times now with poor or no success. When I am ready to snap the image, he tends to move or to never hold still long enough for me to even compose an image from close up. if he is laying ot standing still, me bringing the Camera gets him all wound up, or, he gets wound up and then starts preening...Lol...

"You're doing great so far--he sure is in good hands!"


Thank you...

He is a sweet little Bird, and I am very proud of him.

I am amazed he did not die from what happenned to him. And I am amazed and grateful that he can peck so well and feed himself happily, he loves to eat. I never did try tube feeding into his Crop, initially when he had so little, or no interest in eating, or when he had very little interest in being fed via the little 'Nipple' or other insert-the-Beak methods...fearing for how frail his Beak was. Nor could I do 'Seed-Pop'...so...I was so HAPPY he started Pecking sucessfully and was able to eat naturally in that way.

He is kind and sensitive to his little recovering or recovered now of Baby Dove buddy, and that is very sweet.

I do not know what to expect for his Beak, but I imagine that the lower half of it may hang on for who knows how long, but I do not know how Beaks grow, or, how much they may do so, or from what point...I do not know the manner of Beaks growing.

So, 'Holding my breath' on that matter...as well...

He is making small flights now also. And is starting to do his 'Helicoptering' excercises now.


Thanks Pidgey..!  

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Did some searching and found some references to damaged beaks. I was looking for the owl that I was thinking of and came across this first:

http://huh.nchl.bc.ca/wrc pics.htm

Here's another:

http://www.maars.org/news/petstory.php

This is a GREAT story:

http://www.libertywildlife.org/help_need.html

Here's another:

http://www.bronxzoo.com/278313/186579

I never found the one about the owl that I was looking for but apparently it isn't a unique story. Hopefully, Crow Baby won't need anything that drastic.

Pidgey


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Pidgey,

Great links...enjoyed reading them. Man, that Umbrella Cockatoo, Angel, was hard to look at without her prosthetic.... I have the Animal Planet channel and will be looking for Angel's story on Pet Story. I know the show is from 2003, but the channel repeats many of it's programs over and over, so hoping I will get lucky one of these days.

Those are some lucky birds that had enough people care enough to go the extra mile to help them.

Thanks
Linda


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey, what great links you posted. I especially enjoyed the links about Half
Face, also Jimmy. Thanks for posting.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon,

Isn't it nice to know that there are people out there who are even crazier than we are with respect to trying to help hurt birds?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...

Crow-Babys' little Dove buddy is fine and well and a little odd...she resembles in her mannerisms, more a Baby Duck somehow...is tranwuil and very self posessed and likes to come peck when he and I do so at the little Seed Bowl they both share...


Ohhhhh golly...as far as Crow-Baby himself now, who has come SO far and been so happy and vivid and learning to fly nicely in here to roost in high places with the present recovering large feral 'Uncle' who has been nice to let him near him...this is a hard one on me here...his little curled top Beak straightened out as far as being 'scizzored' goes, but it goes 'up' form the old injury spot, then curles 'in' or down, and at the weak spot where the wattles used to be, is where it bends 'up' to then curl down in a sort of 'open' position then, since the low spot is where the top Beak bottoms out on the lower one...

...so, it has been progressively harder for him to peck effectively for a few days now. I spent a bunch of times the last few days trying to get Seeds one-at-a-time into his gulllet and it has been very hard to do. If I get him to open wide enough for the Seed to get past that area, he shakes them out 9 out of 10 times.

Even when he opens his Beak or is trying to peck, and he HAS been acitively trying to peck MANY times today, and often the last few days, but the weak spot is too low now, or the rest of his top Beak is too high...so he is not getting any Seeds into himself, not getting enough to eat at all...he will not eat like a 'Baby' now, so I can not feed him that way...unless he changes his mind on that. Invitations have not proved interesting to him so far.

I am scared to try tube feeding him for fear of how frail the top Beak is at the old injury spot, and while it is on-there well, it 'hinges' there at that spot ( he has no Nostrils or Wattles, and what used to be in those areas grew back as tender light colored flesh which is softand bends very easily)...and I do not want to stress it by prying open his mouth far enough to get a tube into his crop. I may have to do so tomorrow though, as a last resort. He is now pooping little bits of bright 'green' sticky, and White, so he is running on "empty'...

I have been vexing all along on how to make something for a prosthetic, and I am stumped...maybe as I fall asleep soon I will think of something finally...

Damn...he is such a little sweetie, and has been so happy the last few days to hang out in high places in here with the big feral whose Wing was hurt but now works well and evenly...he still 'peeps' when eating, and if I am near, or pecking with him, he flaps and gets so excited he goes in circles...


I will post some images tomorrow...I am kinda tired now...eeeeesh, 4:05 A.M. already...time for sleep...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil, 

I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and burrito. I had a vet use a tool on one of my pigeons a long time ago that may help here. It would be about like sliding a popsickle stick in from the side and then rotating to open the beak. In your case, you'd need to lever the top half of the beak with the back edge of the blade and the bottom half with the front edge. It'd be the same as putting a key through from the left side of the bird and turning one-half turn counterclockwise. You'll need to make sure that the edge closest to the bird is far enough back to engage the undamaged portion of the top of the beak parts.

Now, here's the part that matters--you have to make a hole in the popsickle stick/key/popcan tab that will allow you to insert a tube or drop peas and corn into it. It just occurred to me that a medium to large paper clip would probably work--you might want to bend the outside end 90 degrees to the clip to help turn it. I'm sure it'd be easier with a good handle like the one the vet had but that's a luxury that you might not need. 

With your cabinet and tool making skill, I know this device and procedure isn't going to be a problem although you might need another set of hands to help hold his head still while you're getting the food down. The burrito could do most of that, though, if you make it a really good one. Personally, I'd tube feed at least the first shot and then fall back and regroup when starvation is no longer a danger. 

That leaves the beak. I expect that the blood flow to the actual top of the beak probably was interrupted and it may be dead keratin. I always thought that their beaks grew from a nailbed like our fingernails do until I had to clip a small bit off of Charcoal's beak because it tends to overgrow and hook downward so bad. Well, when I clipped off less than 1/8", it bled a little! So the whole thing's growing.

Do I hazard a guess that the normal down-curling tip of the top beak points down into his tongue? You might need to file or clip some of that off. If you did that and it didn't bleed at all, it'd probably be fair bet that the entire outboard section of beak is as dead as a fingernail and will eventually come off. Perhaps there is some living tissue on the left side (I'm recalling the earlier pictures) that's still viable. I'll wait for your new pictures but I'd rather you got the food down him first.

As bad as this is going to sound, I expect that they secure those prosthetics on those parrots and such with little titanium screws driven into the skull. That's normal for a special kind of dental work. I sat on a plane beside a guy from Bartlesville (near here) that had a business providing that kind of stuff--false teeth that were essentially epoxy-glued to titanium bolts driven into the jaw. They use titanium because the body will just about corrode anything else. He said that even titanium would corrode if it didn't have the oxide coating on the outside.

Anyhow, I'll be looking into that for you and we'll see what crazy thing we can do.

Later,

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Thanks!

Yes...the upper Beak from the new-flesh, used to be Wattles, on down, seems kind of inert or to have have been deprived of it's blood flow, and dried and shrank even a little and curled.

I will try the 'paper clip' idea, very good notion! Thank you...!

More later! And I will put up some images later today.

This morning he flew up first thing, to hang out with his big feral 'Uncle'...so, he is still energetic if damned hungry by now!

Ohhhh...my...this little harpy is such a sweetie...so, we shall go meet Mr. 'Paper-Clip' now for our Luncheon-Social, and see how we can do...

I have had no epiphanys on the Prosthetic, but the more I brood, the more I think I can come up with something which will work...

( I had a Pigeon long ago who lost his entire Beak and it was loose and dangly when I found him...he/she learned to Eat decently after a few weeks of 'Seed-Pops', and after a while was as full and plump as any of them, and oddly, was even beautiful in their way too!...somehow the look was not disturbing at all, but seemed 'complete' somehow...)



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

My seventh attempt to make this post! - every time so far the computer has been jammed with a dead MS-explorer when I go to highlight-and-copy the URL for 'Webshots' or to try 'edit' on my post...yeeeeeesh!

Anyway...

Some images which show little Crow-Baby's Beak troubles...

I did make a prosthesis today and it fit very nicely in every way, but, he shook his head, and contorted untill he shook it out...! I could not tell if it was the prosthesis itself or the adhesive he objected to...so, I will try again tomorrow...

Did maybe thirty sessions of 'Seed-Pop' and got maybe fourty or fifty Seeds in...eeeeeesh, he is "THE" toughest customer I ever had for 'Seed-Pops'...and I thought I had met 'wiggle worms' before...!

More tomorrow...

I am too sleepy now to again write the long detailed thing again! And I am writing THIS one in outlook express to NOT loose it if there ia a jam again.

See...

http://community.webshots.com/slideshow?ID=371618971&key=COPqEq


Showing too, little Dove Buddy and Uncle Feral who are his pals these days...

 

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

That's a lot worse than I thought. If it's taking too long to feed him, you might think about constructing a bird holder/clamp. 

What it would basically consist of is a pigeon-shaped body holder, rather like the form you make with both hands when you're holding a bird. You just have to make it in two halves. For ease of operation, they need to be a top half and a bottom half. The legs need to go through holes in the bottom half and be unsupported so the pigeon can't push off of anything. It needs to fit the form of the pigeon very closely.

Then, there's got to be a standoff piece that "cups" the head (gotta' be oh, so slightly padded) under the ears and lower jaw. That portion has to stand off of the main body and support the head at the right position for holding the neck somewhat straight enough to make tube feeding easy. You don't need much sideboards around the head to immobilize it. Anyhow, in a long-lasting situation like this one is destined to be, that might be your best option.

I don't think you'll be able to install an external prosthetic because you'll only have soft tissue to glue to and it just gives too much. We've got a real problem here.

Whenever I have a "wiggle worm" like that, I have Lin hold the body and then I invert my left hand, palm up, and using the middle finger and ring finger (the one a wedding ring goes on--some people out there have rings on all fingers!) I cup under the ears and lift the head away from the body. This works with a pigeon burrito as well. You have to use the right hand to open the beak and the left thumb and index finger to keep it there. In this case, you're going to need a either the paper clip method or...

Something maybe better! If you can get a hold of a Mentor Self-Cath Female, that would probably work real well. If you could talk them into it, you could get one from a urologist's office. It's a real simple thing, just a piece of clear 3/16" tubing with a bullet nosed end and a hole in the side about 3/4" back from the end. You could use the bullet nose to push straight in without worrying about separating the beak. 

I suppose you could make one easy enough if you had the right kind of surgical tubing. You'd just have to melt the end with flame to form the bullet nose (it'll take some doin') and put the oval hole in with a hot wire. On second thought, call a urologist! 

Anyway, those are the only suggestions that I've got for the moment. Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

What did you use to make the prosthesis and what type of adhesive did you use? In my youth I went to veterinary technology college and I seem to remember something from avian med. about a quick drying smooth cement substance the might be used to build the beak up. I think it was something like what dentists use for repairing chipped teeth. Maybe contact a local dentist and an avian vet via phone, they may be willing to sell the product to you (or donate  ) given the great love and compassion you have in rehabbing this sweety. Good Luck! Melissa


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

P.S. I think the stuff sets up in only about 5 minutes!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgie,


Thanks...those are some good ideas...

I do have some various soft Catheters and some small fittings which allow the catheter to go inside of it to then fit a Leur-Loc end of a syringe...useing a few inches only of a Catheter, this has been handy for occasions of 'Tube' feeds...

I was thinking earlier also of a modified syringe item, or something like a syringe, which would have a few inches of soft Catheter on it, for getting rows of small Seeds into a Crop. A Seed 'charger' of sorts. I am sure I could make one, and I think I will, it would be handy to have. And with the small Seeds, the diameter of the Catheter section would not have to be too big.

Anyway, doing better today on 'Seed-Pop' now getting about four for every ten tried. Not too bad.

Gotta come up with something though, poor little fellow, he DOES want to eat and enthusiastically pecks any time I go over there and call him to do so to the Seed Bowl.

I have tried holding the Seed Bowl on a tilt and up to neck level, with hopes that the angle and the closeness might let him succeed in pecking, but, he does not seem to get any even by that method, though he sure tries.

Yahhh...with various things, it is so much easier if there is someone to assist!

Lol...

I slipped an empty cut-the-bottom out 'Starbucks' Paper Cup over him, which with a little padding set right on him first makes a pretty good 'hold-em'.
I have done this other times with other Birds and except for their wanting to scrunch their Heads 'in', it is easy to get on or off, and is a miminal fuss.

We've been doing best it seems with just me kind of cradleing him against my outer thigh as I sit on the bed, and doing the Seed-pops that way. He struggles least with this method. Other constraints offend or annoy him somehow to where he is all about struggleing against them.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi melissasue1968,


The prosthetic which is/was to go under the curve of the upper Beak, I made from 'Styrofoam'...it fit nicely, and is beveled on it's top curve to fit the channel of his upper Beak, and it's bottom was about flat with small serrations for gripping Seeds. It weighed nothing and...

I think he disliked the smell or taste of the presence of the adhesive, more than that he per-se was objecting to the prosthesis itself.

I need to figure out some kind of fast setting or fast grab adhesive which does not taste-smell 'bad'...

What I tried, is an all purpose Aerosol spray, and I sprayed the top edge with a small mask on it to keep the sides clean, and then stuck it in there pronto, the adhesive had a decent 'grip' with some time to spare. It went well, but he really hated something about it and shook and worked it out quite soon.

Adhesive ideas anyone?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi melissasue1968,
> 
> Adhesive ideas anyone?
> 
> ...


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Just thought of something, the stuff might melt styrofoam slightly-I've had that happen with superglue- so you may or may not have to try some other type of material for the prosthesis if you try this. But it probably would not melt it completely-just a little.
Melissa


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil and Everyone, 

I viewed your updated pictures of the "Crow" pigeon, the upper mandible is in very bad shape. Phil, I know you're doing your best for this pigeon and without you, it wouldn't have survived to this point. However, I really feel that this one is beyond your abilities to further help properly. I don't think that any of us here;moderators, rehabbers, members, vet assistants or otherwise can advise you of what to do or how to construct a proper prosthetic for this birds' beak. I feel this bird should be taken to a professional to assess whether or not the beak can be repaired properly or not and also to assess what kind of life this pigeon can lead in the future. I think that if you do this on your own, with just common household "glues" or items, it's going to get messed up even worse and possibly ruin the beak completely. I feel really sorry for this pigeon now upon seeing how it's only gotten worse. In my humble opinion, I feel it's time to take this bird to be assessed by someone who can help it properly and make decisions for what is truly best for this pigeon.


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*I agree*

That's the best thing really to do,(go to a vet) I thought too, but I thought maybe people here don't seem to rely on the vets too much, as many antibiotics, wormers etc. are reccomended here just on a description of the situation. If an animal is in a bad way it's always the best option for it to be taken to a doctor who specializes in it's care as many illnesses can have the same symptoms, I really respect all of you out there, because with your years of experience you often can diagnose what's wrong with them because you have a great deal of knowledge from your experience.
I hope I don't/didn't sound like a know it all. I don't mean too. I just wanted to help if possible. 
With these prosthesis situations, even the pros have to design it themselves, as every case is different. I really admire your dedication to this helpless creature! 
Sorry if I upset anyone trying to give too much advice.  
Melissa


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Melissa, 

Your advice and support is very welcomed here It's just time now that Phil's "Crow" pigeon should be seen to by a professional.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks all..!

If I can somehow find a 'professional' anywhere arond here, I would be happy to see what can come of it!

A practical prostheitc would be a joy for him and for me!

He is enthused and interested about pecking and self feeding, but can get almost nothing with his Beak the way it is.

I have been working with him also to learn to peck 'straight in' and deeply into a bowl of Seeds, which if he would do, would work. However, since he is a little frustrated and also still trying old habits of pecking to grasp with the tip of his Beak, he would have to re-learn how-to-peck, which is a possibility...

Otherwise, this morning and of course the last few days, we have been doing Seed-Pop, and, while not enough I know, it is enough for him to still be flying around and so on on and he has been pooping little versions of real poops, so, that is good...

If anyone knows of any Vets who I could contact other than in person, who you feel might be interested to help, please let me know.

I will make some calls to see who I can find here in town.

Keep our fingers crossed!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hmmmm...!


Well, keep this in your prayers...


Poops are larger today and more of them ( small Raisen or 'Currant' size ) and...

I have been working with him to encourage him to peck 'deeply' instead of just with the tip of his Beak...and, he is having some success!


That and with my doing the little interludes of 'Seed-Pop'...he is holding his own...flying around and so on.

Every little while I walk up front and say "Hey Squeaker-Bug, wanna do some 'pecking'?" And he flies over instantly all squeaking and twirling in flapping circles, and I peck with my finger in an exhaggerated vertical 'deep' way...and...slowly, he seems to be trying it in that way of 'deep' pecking into the Seeds-in-a-Bowl...otherwise he just flings them everywhere! - or pecks with just the tip...at the scattered ones...so...

We shall see...

No matter what, something should happen or be done to strengthen the weak area where the top Beak kind of flexes...


Back to work now...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

What they're talking about is exactly what I've been researching. The field of dentistry, believe it or not, that seems to be the way here is Prosthodontics. Usually when rescuers work to save the life of a bird of prey or psittacine that has had a similar loss of upper mandibular function, it is a dentist who gets enlisted with the help of a dental technician. I suppose it's generally overseen by an avian vet as well because the procedure is likely to be performed under a general anesthetic.

Also, it will usually require the help of the avian vet to provide the underlying skeletal knowledge to direct the formation of the attachment strategy. Here's a webpage that specifically mentions some of the actual personnel who have done this:

http://www.24hourscholar.com/p/articles/mi_m0BFU/is_7_88/ai_94666490

Of course, they're nowhere near you, but it might be possible to get in touch with them for any published methodology that they used. That's also what I've been pursuing from those other webpages mentioned earlier in this thread.

Some of the other notes that I posted earlier were essentially saying "find a way to keep the bird alive and well no matter what it takes" until we can work this out because it will not be done easily or quickly. It's going to be bad enough because the poor fellow didn't have any better sense than to be born a pigeon, bless his heart!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey!


Thanks...

I could not find much there in the article though, maybe I was not looking hard enough? I will try again later...

If I can obtain a suitable adhesive, I think I can do something which will be practical, but I am thinking now, that it needs to be on top of the Beak there, and to attatch to the forehead, to the skin of the lower forehead. Hence, the kind of adhesive is especially important.

The styrofoam piece I made for the inside curve of the Beak, is maybe less a good idea than gradually 'training' the Beak for it's last half to go 'down' somewhat. This would do him I think.

Anyway, the little under-the-curve proesthetic I did make, pending or lacking a suitable adhesive, was very neat and elegant and fit perfectly. I made it by sanding to shape, a little chunk of the harder sort of styrofoam form a shipping box a tee-vee came in.

Took maybe ten minutes on the 6x48 Stationary Belt Sander and then Silicon Carbide Sandpaper glued on sticks for final perfections.

So, whether I can find some experienced Proesthetic Beak makers or not, this would be nice to have as something I can 'do' or renew when needed, and for that, it seems to me so far, the need for an adhesive being skin friendly, with no objectionable smell or taste, and able to be redone easily when needed, is the key.

I might be able to 'train' the end of the Beak back 'down'...even if there is something of a gap in the mid area, which was on my mind also when I was brooding on what-to-do...

He is certainly a wonderful and happy little Bird, still every-inch-a 'squeaker'! And I would be fine to have him for the next couple decades or more if I last that long...

Heavy-ritual 'Titanium' things screwed into his paper thin Skull kind of gives me a non-plus sort of feeling, and would not be easy to come by or for me to do...Lol...

Make sense?

Anyway...the places I called so far today for the "Nexiband" adhesive, are not open Week-ends...so...Monday...



I might try some of the Vets to see if they have some, as well as to see who if anyone they could think of to recommend as for Proesthetic experience or wisdoms...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally,

I've been anticipating the full amputation of the upper beak since the first pictures that you posted. It might be inevitable. I believe that it will be the only way to attach a workable and permanent prosthetic. And, uhh... I wasn't suggesting that you manage this operation yourself, by the way.

Fortunately, a pigeon isn't as hard on a beak as, say, a parrot is, seeing as how they don't "chew" their food like a psittacine tends to. Owls and birds of prey put a lot of stress on their beaks by rending the... "things" they eat apart as well. So, he oughta' be able to manage a prosthetic pretty well.

The reason that I'm anticipating amputation is because, by your descriptions and pictures, there is no longer a continuity of the rigid supporting structure between the end of the beak and the skull. That leaves the question of actual circulation to the end of the beak itself--does it still have its own blood supply? If it doesn't, it will likely eventually separate anyhow.

And, given the disparity in length, it's almost non-operational now even if it were artificially solidified due to the way it differs from the norm. You did mention the other bird with a serious loss of beak that obviously managed. Sometimes, where there's a will there's a way and we always hope to find the most natural and easiest path.

Believe me, I understand the magnitude of the undertaking that I'm suggesting. It's always tough in a case like this to balance the effort and cost against the value of the individual life. And that weighs in heavily, sadly, on the ultimate path taken.

By the way, I think I now understand the course you have been trying to follow--you've been trying to make an "addition" to the already existing structure as is that will essentially form a "superbeak"--one that effects the normal beak form below the up-curling existing beak and also "fills in" the section between the forehead and scar-tissue wattle above--essentially two pieces, right? And glued on to boot.

I think that's an applaudable effort and it may even work as long as he stays with you to have it reinstalled from time to time. If, however, he ever goes to the wild, he will probably live only as long as it lasts. I was hoping that a prosthetic done the other way could last a lifetime and not need monitoring.

And I fully understand your reticence about titanium screws into the skull. I wasn't particularly suggesting that--I was just mentioning that was one of the ways that dentists are now installing prosthetic teeth. I don't know yet how they've installed the prosthetic beaks--I'm working on that. Dang weekends! Everyone uses them as an excuse to stop working and become "unreachable".

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey!

Oh!

Keep on me with this!

You bet!

Anytime, allways, for anything, for that matter.

You are a joy and an inspiration!  


Oh, sorry for any ambiguity, I know you are 100 percent into giving me moral and technical support! Me and Crow-Baby I mean...!  


All of your every mentions are 100 percent cool...I was just not clear in the previous...

My sense of this is patience and waiting to see what developes, and, still to consider a corrective outer small prosthetic measure for tilting the Beak's last half 'down' in graduated steps. That is IF the root is able to preserve the connection for it...we shall see...

The present attatchment of the hard-beak area at the 'root' more or less, under where the old Wattles were, is alive and new, and has a 'wrinkle' in it at the end from flexing...and the rest kind of from there to the tip seems to be in a stasis from there...hmmm...what could happen in time? 

I am all for any possibilites for a really well done prosthetic. I will gladly see about contacting anyone I can about it. I need to make better notes on 'who' has been mentioned so far in various posts as references, and this week to make some calls or e-mails.

Just thinking that something 'simple' and re-newable would have some advantages. Something I can 'do' if it needs it.

I do not think Crow-Baby will ever be a Wild Bird...

Not uless he grows a new Beak AND gets the rest of those Feathers in on top of his head...!

I do not know really if he will quite ever 'Grow' up anyway! The severe trauma might have arrested him in some ways, or at least slowed him a good deal. he is very agile and a good flier and bright and happy, and those of course are very good things.

He can be the resident Bub and general Ambassador for new arrivals for convelscences...he is very friendly and sociable and gentle with new Birds and shows them things. Big 'Uncle Feral', thanks to Crow Baby being so easy going, even though 'Uncle' is a large Male and a Wild Bird, has been so comfortable from Crow Baby's examples, that he comes over and pecks with us when we are doing our 'pecking'...Uncle Feral will come within about a foot of my hands on his own or close somewhat while grazing, or let me refill and return the Water Bowl there in their communal area, while he stands there waiting for me to do it, and to set it in front of him, but he likes it for me to move away a little when he drinks...and that's not too bad for a Wild one!

Time will tell when C-Baby grows up more, what sort of disposition he will have...of course. But for now he has been a fine Ambassador and Greeter and comfort maker for others.

I was just 'pecking' with him some more, and by golly if he is not getting better at it by pecking 'deeper' into the depth of Seeds. I saw him get three in a row then miss two, then got one, then miss three trys, then got one, got all excited and twirled circles and so on, then got two in a row, and so on...not bad at all.

I only did a few Seed-Pops this morning, and a coupld after, and mostly it is all him pecking today.

He pooped on my arm from my shoulder during one interlude of me sitting there, and it was a nice 'Raisen' size...so...

It maybe is possible he can manage as he is, but I would like some way to re-inforce and tilt back 'down' that second half of his upper Beak...the connection it has 'seems' good so far, where it 'flexes'....so, it might not be all 'dead' thereon, or might begin to grow or regenerate from somewhere somehow...and time will tell if it shall change some more or fall off...or get so wangley as to be useless.

I would feel bad to have it removed but as for a way WAY last resort.

The long ago one I had who had no Beak at all, did do very well once it learned to Eat (only the larger Seeds it happens) so...one possibility I suppose, might be that he someday has a rather 'shorter' version of a Beak.

Preening of course is important for them, and I am amazed he does as well with that as he does!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Not sure if you had seen this.
http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2002/10/10/51.asp

Story of an eagle that needed a new beak.


Julianne


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

On that story link, you might not have scrolled far enough down. I finally searched on the dentist's name and found a matching one in Nanaimo, British Columbia. I gave him a call and got his secretary. They apparently didn't work with a vet at all--just the dental technician and the rehabbers. That's been about four years ago and the bird is still okay--they never released it back in the wild but it was an elderly bird anyway. Anyhow, they took my email address and will try (crossed fingers) to make a brief write-up and eventually send it through.

I believe that it'll be a few months (three?) before we should even attempt something like this because Crow Baby will continue to grow for awhile and we don't want to size anything until that's done. So, let's see how he gets on in the short term.

I will continue to try to contact others who have performed this stunt. I think it's probably not a good idea to mention the type of bird Crow Baby is so I haven't been. I'm sure you see why, bless his welcome-wagoning little heart!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey..!


Thanks so much!


I will make some calls today to see about some possibly suitable ahdesive...'Vetbond' or 'Nexiband'...

While intending to assay all options, for now, I am inclined to still proceed with a small 'brace' for the Beak's top to tilt it just a little 'down' while preventing it from flexing there at it's midpoint where the fleshy area ends and the hard Beak begins.

Tilting it 'down' maybe 1/16th of an inch is well within it's flexing range, and, if I can keep it like that, it will make self feeding, 'pecking' a little easier for him, and, after a week or something, I would intend to renew the bridge with one that tilts it down just a little more. This way, my idea, is to slowly, in stages, coax the Beak back to where the tips may meet again. This, I am sure, would allow him to peck effeciently with his regular habits.

Then, that 'bridge' would be the 'for-keeps' one. Being renewed if or when needed.

It only has to be just 'enough' to do the job, so can be quite small and thin and likely I will make it a dark color so it does not seem to be so foreign.

Not sure what material yet for this to be!

Something light that will accept the adhesive nicely to adhere both to the Beak's arch-top area, and, to the skin of his lower forehead...

So...I have elected to not try having anything under the Beak's curved rise...but instead, of course, to see if I may let it gradually change it's angle there so the tips meet, and, for that to be the permenent Prosthetic Brace for it.

Hmmm..."material"...

Ideas?

I could sculpt something from any 'Horn' kind of material. Plastic does not seem inviteing, but...hmmm..I will brood some more. Styrofoam might be fine to try again for this, the 'hard' kind as it were...I will have to see how it takes the adhesive and so on. Hard to stain though! a rtiny bit of Shoe Polish maybe, and buff before installation...Lol...


Till next!

Thanks so much!!!!

Phil and Crow-Baby, 
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

I'm thinking something hard and long-fiber(ed) like bamboo. That would be easily workable and yet should have excellent strength-to-weight characteristics. The fibers are so doggone long that they should work fine as well as course enough as to maximize adhesion of the glue. The price is certainly right and availability should be no problem.

Think it over!

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*"'Lee' press on beaks!?!"*

I can't stop thinking about your situation. All kinds of ideas are running thru my head, some seem do-able others pretty iffy.
I'll list them in case any seem better to you than others or maybe they will give you more ideas!
*Balsa wood-light weight, easy to carve available at hobby shops (where they sell model cars/planes etc.) But!!! maybe wood is too porous??? How much moisture will it be exposed to as he drinks? Will it swell up, or will water seep underneath and cause a fungal/bacterial infection. Maybe it could be waterproofed somehow. Maybe dipped in a non-toxic cerama-coat?(craft store)
*As for hobby shops-maybe some of the plastic pieces for a model airplane etc. 'might fit the "bill"'...Oops-no pun intended (bill/beak-haha!! Sorry Crow Baby, no offense, I know this is a serious matter)
*Self stick craft foam-easy to cut, waterproof, and self stick but probably need to be replaced frequently-I'm not sure how long the adhesive would last, but it would be easily renewable-some are very sticky but others not as sticky, and flexible, but if it has the support from the beak on top--maybe---cheap, comes in many colors and different thicknesses.
*PVC pipe- a thin one that could be cut/shaped
*Cow hooves-the ones they sell for dogs to chew on-maybe too difficult to cut and shape?! A little odor maybe, waterproof, strong, I think maybe they can be carved. Have you ever seen a horses hooves being trimmed? They kind of just slice them off in long pieces with a curved knife. Like thick fingernails. Know anybody with *horses that need a trim?
*60ml. syringe tip-not the luer lock type, but there are special ones with very long tips to connect to a tube for irrigation, maybe the tip could be cut off and then split lengthwise to give a half circle effect and be shaped from there. This would be very tedious, but do-able. Can you wittle?
*Then it hit me! (Ouch!) What about those artificial stick on nails?? The ones that come with a bottle of glue-not the peel and stick.
They are strong, lightweight, waterproof, come with a glue that is safe for humans at least----  . They come in different lengths. But how easy are they to cut and shape?? You seem to be very talented with tools so maybe you could figure a way! I thought you could cut the basic shape and then maybe use a soldering iron if you've got one to perfect it and/or sand like you did the styrofoam. If not the nails what about the glue* that comes with them? 
Why don't you check out a local *craft store for different things you could use, and also someplace like a *home-depot, I don't know if they are in your part of the country , but any large hardware store. Tell the people what you are doing, the more brains working on the problem the better, and they might think of something wonderful! You have a really challenging problem. Even vets who care for these animals all the time will have to use thier imagination and artistic abilities to come up with an answer for this one.
I hope this helps in some way! Good luck Phil and Crow Baby!!!  
Your friend, Melissa


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,

Just to jump on the bandwagon here w/ a suggestion that might have some merit in fashioning a prosthesis...

I found this link which describes a craft material called "Friendly Plastic" which can be softened in hot water and molded to shape, then hardened in cold water...might be a thought..

http://www.allaboutcrafts.co.uk/acatalog/Friendly_Plastic_.html

Linda


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgie, Melissa, Lin...

Thanks so much for all your excellent thoughts and ideas!  

Rushed now, but more later tonight...

Too, I am seeing tiny incipient 'buds' sprouting from where the transition is of the old Beak and the new flesh meet, which new flesh grew in to where the old Nostrils and Wattles were...

Could these be the begininings of something like 'new' Wattles? 

We did about 100 White-Safflower Seeds so far today, doing Seed-Pop.

I think somehow Crow-Baby is a Girl...one of those intuition things...who knows...lol...but it feels that way somehow.

Anyway, such enthusiasms for being fed Seed-Pops that it is hard to manage her. She is hungry all the time now. So, we tend to get settled in and to find the groove and to get 16 or 18 done, then it is little miss "I am all LEGS and WINGS!" and I will prove it by useing them to the MAX!!!" Lol...so, we take a break...she flys onto my back or stomach or shoulder and squeaks and nuzzles with "FEED ME!!!!" things...so...we get settled in, do ten or fifteen or twenty Seeds..and...give it a break for a little while.

Hobby Store is at least an hour round trip with traffic the way it is, so, I will go tomorrow...I am thinking 'Balsa' ( I used to build a lot of doped-Paper covered 'U-controll' Airplanes years ago...and I like Balsa, and it is light, with some more light than others, so...)

The Balsa I can 'seal' well in Lacquer, make it Black like her Beak, and the sealing of it will not only make it Water resistant for occasions of her drinking, but, will likely present a nicer surface for the adhesive.

Maybe some images tonight when she is sleepy and NOT such an active little flapping-enthused-harpy-bug...Lol...

Anyway, the Seed-Pops have been really important...she was doing some good pecking there for a while, learning to peck more straight and 'deep' into the Seed Bowl. But, as she got hungrier and I was not doing so many Seed-Pops, wishing her to learn new Pecking methods, pecking with her and so on hundreds of times now, her patience diminished...

Oh well..."Seed-Pops"! and tomorrow I will make a Black Lacquer, Balsa, Prosthetic for on top of her Beak.

and I will see how well the 'Kinkos' (For Photos, it says, ) no smell rub on Glue Stick, works...lets hope it does!

The other Vet or Med adhesives I looked into are either riduculously priced same-as-hobby kinds or Hardware-Store kinds, which are solvent based, or cyanoacrilate types. No good for this, she'd HATE the odor or fumes, and object to the negative experience of it being done. And most of these would make it hard to remove or renew or adjust if needed...so...

Till next!

Love,


Phil
And Crow-Baby...
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...

Made the proesthesis, the Black Paint applied and a clear Lacquer coat is drying...looks good...

Caught her in the right mood and got about 27 Seeds popped in and down...and, got to try the roughed out contour of the proesthetic...so...some good goings there...

Such a wiggle-worm!

...flys onto my shirt, and flapping, squeaking, honking even, climbs on up...wishing to be fed!..all of those charming 'Squeaker' things...such a little bundle of energy. Whew! - burns up them Seeds like a tiny Locomotive needing to be stoked with Coal all the time...!

Of course!

...sigh...

Phil


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...it is like trying to hold...a 'Trout'...

I have NEVER seen such a wiggle worm!

And it is not because she does not like being held, it is just that she is so enthusiastic about it, and or about being fed and played with...yeeeeeesh!

Been doing 'Seed-Pops' of course, pending getting the Prosthesis glued in or on...

This is the most vigorous and active youngster I have ever had I think.

One thing I never mentioned, is that when she is all wound up, she goes in circles, and if you constrain her, her head turns in that same direction as far as it can...so, when she is excited about being fed, after all these twirls and so on, I hold her, and her head keeps wanting to go in the same direction her circle flappings were going in. Always the same direction, 'clockwise'...



So, I can not hold her without her thinking "Oh! Seed-Pops!Yippeee! and as usual FOR her Seed-Pop times, she is all wiggle worm and twirley-bug...I usually resort to a 'Sweater', being a cut down medium size Cotton sock...which works decently for ohhhhhh...anywhere from ten seconds to fifteen, then "WIGGLE WORM!!!!" again...feet getting wedged up into it, Wing shoulders wiggleing up into the neck area, and so on no matter how snug I make it...and...sometimes we can do five Seeds, sometimes twenty...but whew, it is not easy!

Made prosthesis No. 2 just now, likewise a very nice fit. This one, a repeat of the under the Beak's curved end, so the tips may come close for her to grasp Seeds...

I am wanting to install this one first, and will see if I can get it tonight. i would LOVE to see her peck and get her Seeds! Oh, you do not know how much I would love that...Lol...  

I will keep on it, some more tonight, but so far, Seed-Pops we somehow can manage, I slide them in from the front. Holding her to fit the prosthesis, is a whole other matter!

This is one of those times where another pair of hands would sure be nice...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...pending that 'extra pair of Hands'...the prosthesis is pending...

I have tried maybe fourty times now, and I can not get it by myself with all this wiggleing and head turning !

...thank goodness I can do Seed-Pops anyway, but the fitting with adhesive needs to be much more steady...

Young (previous 'Slow Crop') has been such a nice pal for Crow Baby, preening her and so on, hanging out together, very sweet...

Uncle Feral is back in the wilds now...he was 'ready'...and...so...Life goes on...

Phil
lasvegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Has Crow Baby's beak changed any since the last time you took the photos? I really need to look into something on how their beaks grow--I'm wondering if the fingernail-like portion grows from the back somewhat constantly while the inner mouth soft tissue parts are supported by the structure shown in the illustrations that I sent you.

One of the things that Canadian dentist's secretary told me was that the eagle didn't need the prosthesis anymore--it had been four or five years since they did it--because the beak had grown back. I can't wait until those records arrive!

Anyhow, do you see more development in those "nubs" you mentioned? Picture?

By the way, you could try taking Crow Baby and the stuff to the vet and having them sedate him with Forane while you install it. That's a last resort though because that would cost a little bit unless you've got a real good relationship with your vet.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


The gal who brought me the pigeon some months ago, that had the terrible Eye infection...she would come over to hold him in his 'Burrito' while I tube-fed him into his Crop, and...

..anyway, no matter how nicely and clearly and kindly I instructed her, she tended to hold him too tight, and the first time I was realizeing it, i noticed also that he had passed out! I unwrapped him instantly and he was fine, recovered in a second...whew!

Anyway, that is one method I guess, to get them to hold 'still'..! ( Just kidding ) 

Crow-Baby is really one delightful and energetic little Bird, and a great ambassador for any new arrives, expecially once they are out of the convelescent Cages and having their week or two or what of free flying in here. 

I will think of something...you had suggested at one point some sort of constraint make-do to keep his head still...and I might just gat something like that made somehow, some foam rubber maybe, folded around her or something...

I am anxious to see the under-the-Beak prosthesis have it's try-out.

The Beak has not changed since last images...but it does get stressed a little in doing Seed-Pops, not that I open it, but that it gets opened with me pushing the Seed down in far enough. Makes it kinda tender looking there...from flexing at that point.


Thanks Pidgie...  


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Pidgey (and Phil too),

Pidgey, you mentioned wondering how the beaks grow, etc...

I found an old, long thread that provides a bounty of information on all kinds of illnesses and injuries, etc.....on page three of this thread there is some information regarding the beak that both of you may find informative...I'm sure both of you will enjoy reading the entire thread as it contains a wealth of information regarding caring for pigeons.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=4654

Linda


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