# Does anyone have a favorite cross or one that has worked well for them?



## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

What do you consider as the best cross and what was your experience, like Janssen/HVR ect.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Winner with Winner


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

*crossing*

I've talked to a Belgium champion who says many say that, winner to winner but it's not always that simple as one must look at the base family and determine if a complete out cross is needed or an influx of new blood in percentage. Anybody can buy winners and breed them together and many try but don't always succeed. Many a champion as results begin to slip start by blending a percentage of new blood into their existing family, and they do maintain familys. The Van **** birds are like this as he continually adds birds to the Kannibaal line. Many have found success by using Meuleman blood as an out cross.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

For what it`s worth,almost all the big time champions add/buy pigeons from other champions in Europe...Their main objective is to bring in birds and try them crossed to some of their top pigeons....The only criteria is,if the Champion has Sprint pigeons,HE GOES to another SPRINT Champion`s Loft....He does not go to a Long Distance Champion lofts to purchase pigeons....From crosses usualy come the best racers....When a super crossed pigeon becomes an Ace Pigeon,then that pigeon goes in the stock loft...It not pure luck,but buying from the right Champion makes it allot better for the BUYER....He has a better chance to find/breed another Ace Pigeon....Alamo


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Hill Top said:


> I've talked to a Belgium champion who says many say that, winner to winner but it's not always that simple as one must look at the base family and determine if a complete out cross is needed or an influx of new blood in percentage. Anybody can buy winners and breed them together and many try but don't always succeed. Many a champion as results begin to slip start by blending a percentage of new blood into their existing family, and they do maintain familys. The Van **** birds are like this as he continually adds birds to the Kannibaal line. Many have found success by using Meuleman blood as an out cross.


I agree that it is a good idea to bring in outside blood to an established family only if the blood is as good or better. I still have enough diversity in my family that as long as the birds are not siblings, winner to winner works very well. The whole concept of winner to winner is to breed from race results and not paper. I think guys get too hung up on breeding from this breed or that, or from this fancier or that without looking at the individual bird you are breeding from. So my answer stands, breed winning birds with winning birds for a given corse. My last outside birds that I brought in were from Mark. Both were race winners. I bred from them flew their youngsters and kept the best couple of racers from those birds crossed with my blood. I will never bring a non-tested bird into my family. I may breed like pairings within the family that has not been tested, but will never bring a bird in strictly by pedigree.


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## Doig (May 18, 2013)

Don't forget about "throwbacks" from crossing Winner to Winner.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

BUT....Breeding only winner to winner, you might miss that one that throws winners, but was just an average Flyer. . All stock related to a winner should be tested. 
An old, and successful flyer I knew used to say some of his best producers were nest mates to winners but sucked in competition.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I have been waiting for someone to start this conversation about breeding programs. It would be nice to have some real substantial talk because it has been lacking on this site lately. I personally have been studying different ideas on this subject and have been reading about strain building, not just breeding your next year young bird team. Why is it that more times than not you put 2 king cup winners together and they will not breed another winner.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Eric, to me genetics is a funny thing. Dominant, recessive what a fuzzy area for me. I AM a Breeder, but I always go with my Gut.
When it comes to racing, or performance, it is NO were near like Color.
I do not COLOR Breed, I breed only for performance. (Flying)
I am the person that never uses a recipe but am considered a Great Cook
Ask me for the directions to make one of my dishes I am vague because it comes from instinct, and i do not KNOW how i do it. LOL. 
I have bred most types of poultry, sheep, rabbits, cage Birds, for Show, successfully.
Can i explain how i did it ? not a chance I am an instinctual Breeder have been all my life.
Breeding for performance is a very Personal thing, Observe keep records, test.
With performance Breeding you MUST be a good trainer or you will never know what your future Breeders are capable of.
You just have to practice, and experiment. EVERY blood line responds a little different.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I wanted to add that most of my best breeding pairs are not race winners but have been bred from champion blood, some raced as ybs but others went straight into the breeding loft. You could say I bred off of the pedigree. To answer the original question my favorit breeding pair is , Avenger line Van Loon cock crossed to a hen that is C Strange Van Loon/Wegge/Hofkens/Janssen/Vandenbeel


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Sometimes that is the magic bullet....It is pretty much different, at least to a point with each different family.
Performance is #1 but if I were to Stock a Winner, my instincts say, test its nest mate, and siblings.........IN THE BREEDING PEN........


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ERIC K said:


> I have been waiting for someone to start this conversation about breeding programs. It would be nice to have some real substantial talk because it has been lacking on this site lately. I personally have been studying different ideas on this subject and have been reading about strain building, not just breeding your next year young bird team. Why is it that more times than not you put 2 king cup winners together and they will not breed another winner.


I wanted to start that thread. I started writing my philosophy down and ran out to time. It is not as simple as winner to winner, but uses it as the basis for breeding. I did see a short article in the digest the other day about breeding that I adhere to also. That would be using hens from winning cocks and cocks from winning hens. I do a lot of same sex pairings etc. Not to say my methods are better than anyone else's, but I do adhere to strict guidelines. My two best young hens are off my futurity winner. My best cocks are off my Janssen hen etc. It has taken me 9 years, but most of my breeding pairs have a race winner or breeder of a winner. It is a simple bell curve method where you only keep the top, the cream to retain as breeders. I will try and finish the article and post it when it is done, starting a post.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Not finished writing, but I started a post.


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

*crossing*

I find my best flyers come from two totally seemingly unrelated strains. For example the best bird I ever raised was a late hatch that didn't fly young birds but flew old birds being less than a year old. He was 1/2 Bekaert from a cock I gave $2.00 for mated to a Sion hen that was given me. He won 5x first out to 600 miles fast or slow didn't matter to him. The sire was two generations away from winners, the dam was never flown. They were stolen so I was never able to reproduce any more and the cock hit a wire and died. The next best I ever raised was Janssen over Fabry.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Randy , I remember a few weeks back you posting on the subject and it never took off or at least in a real conversation. I am interested in what you and others have to say. 

I'm at a cross roads with my birds and my breeding. You see I have been collecting breeders since 2009 and trying new stuff every year and if they don't click I will change the pairing and if still nothing I will move them out or keep some as pumpers. I have narrowed down my breeders to 5 or 6 pairs that will produce good racers and even used some children and grand children as breeders with limited luck. I know I have some very good stock and for the most part relied on luck with my pairings. I will look at birds and if I feel that they are close in style I try them . I haven't got the stockmen ship that others do and probably never will. I know what a quality bird looks like and what they feel like because I have many birds that have won from 200 to 400 and I even place a bird second in the Midwest race last year at 500 miles , so my quality is there . The cross roads I'm at is where do I go from here? I think I have several cocks that would qualify as a stud and I'm willing to bull breed them to my best hens if I can make that work . I'm thinking of taking a round off of them as a base with their current mate and maybe farm out a round of eggs too , then re mate them to other hens to see if they will " CLICK" . I already have young race proven birds ( Hens) to breed back to their fathers to start my line or lines. I have only thought of this after reading this book on strain building in which you start with one super cock and mate him with several top producer hens, not related , and test the young cocks and then pick the best daughters to mate with their father to start your inbred family. The reason given as to test ( race ) the young cocks and save your hens as breeders is that the Arthur thinks that over raced hens make poor breeders. Of course some of your first pairings wouldn't click but if the quality is there and your stud is of exceptional quality he should produce with almost any quality producer hen. This will be your foundation of your line and the original stud cock should dominate the pedigree of your offspring. When the time comes to add new blood to your family or strain you must ONLY bring in hens to cross in to your line bred family, this way you are building a male dominated line. If you inbred based on the female as your stud you will be building a female dominated line which is harder to manage so I've read. Think of all the other animals in the wild in which only the top male gets to breed . Deer, Wolves, Lions etc. By using this method you are the creator of your family not random chance which I have been using for the past few years with some success but I wish to increase the odds in my favor besides I fear that if my best producers would die off I could never afford to replace them.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I started a thread on breeding programs. Maybe your post can be moved over there. I think that is a viable theory. Just something I do not have the time or will to follow to the T. If I were in your situation, I would take my 5 or 6 pairs that are producing and only keep them. At first I was caught up in giving birds multiple chances to prove themselves. Now I give them one season. Maybe two if I know under my system that they should produce. What I mean here is simple. I line breed and I stock cocks off of Charlotte, Hens off of Kahuna, Hens off of Maverick, and Cocks off of 47191. This is what I am bringing in using my line-breeding criteria if I do not have a winner to stock. Winners I might give two years, these birds only get one. 

Maybe Mark will pipe in one the breeding program page. He will eliminate almost 50% of his breeders every year. Not all birds breed winners even if on paper they should. When you have the 5 or 6 pairs that breed winners, it is then easy to replace bad breeders with winning birds. Put yourself in a position when you go from box to box in your breeding loft you can say, that pair bred the 250 mile winner and second high points bird, that pair bred 1st from 300, that pair both won 1st place from 200 and 400, that bird was the 300 mile winner and I bred him to a son of the first pair that was 2nd at 250. In my case the line breeding kind of takes care of itself. 
I see so often where a guy is giving you a tour of his breeding loft. This bird is a grandson of the god of all birds, this hen is down from Kannibal, This is bird has Mona Lisa on both sides. You look at his race record and nothing consistent. In my opinion this is a wast of time and money. I think Ganus just made 40k off a Mona Lisa offspring. I would hate if that bird bred duds. Also how many years do you stock that bird if it does not hit?


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

*Male dominate line*



ERIC K said:


> Randy , I remember a few weeks back you posting on the subject and it never took off or at least in a real conversation. I am interested in what you and others have to say.
> 
> I'm at a cross roads with my birds and my breeding. You see I have been collecting breeders since 2009 and trying new stuff every year and if they don't click I will change the pairing and if still nothing I will move them out or keep some as pumpers. I have narrowed down my breeders to 5 or 6 pairs that will produce good racers and even used some children and grand children as breeders with limited luck. I know I have some very good stock and for the most part relied on luck with my pairings. I will look at birds and if I feel that they are close in style I try them . I haven't got the stockmen ship that others do and probably never will. I know what a quality bird looks like and what they feel like because I have many birds that have won from 200 to 400 and I even place a bird second in the Midwest race last year at 500 miles , so my quality is there . The cross roads I'm at is where do I go from here? I think I have several cocks that would qualify as a stud and I'm willing to bull breed them to my best hens if I can make that work . I'm thinking of taking a round off of them as a base with their current mate and maybe farm out a round of eggs too , then re mate them to other hens to see if they will " CLICK" . I already have young race proven birds ( Hens) to breed back to their fathers to start my line or lines. I have only thought of this after reading this book on strain building in which you start with one super cock and mate him with several top producer hens, not related , and test the young cocks and then pick the best daughters to mate with their father to start your inbred family. The reason given as to test ( race ) the young cocks and save your hens as breeders is that the Arthur thinks that over raced hens make poor breeders. Of course some of your first pairings wouldn't click but if the quality is there and your stud is of exceptional quality he should produce with almost any quality producer hen. This will be your foundation of your line and the original stud cock should dominate the pedigree of your offspring. When the time comes to add new blood to your family or strain you must ONLY bring in hens to cross in to your line bred family, this way you are building a male dominated line. If you inbred based on the female as your stud you will be building a female dominated line which is harder to manage so I've read. Think of all the other animals in the wild in which only the top male gets to breed . Deer, Wolves, Lions etc. By using this method you are the creator of your family not random chance which I have been using for the past few years with some success but I wish to increase the odds in my favor besides I fear that if my best producers would die off I could never afford to replace them.


Sounds like your making progress, I think I read the same book. The hen is just as important as the cock but breeding to strengthen the male line does have advantages....like the diversity you get and vigor of having the different hen lines in the family in subjucation to the cock blood dominace. This also increases your chances of coming up with more exceptional individuals.


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

*Cross Breeding*

I know of many successful fanciers who maintain two family's or strains then cross these for their racers. In fact one very successful flyer who I once flew with believed this was the only way. Paul Sion said "the champion knows how to manage the cross" I think this is the true art to breeding.


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## arvel (Aug 13, 2009)

Your original question seems to be directed more toward strains of pigeons rather than methods of cross breeding. To answer your original question, I have had a lot of success with Houben/Hofken cross. I must clarify that my foundation pair was Houben and I later crossed in the Hofken. The Clausing Houbens are an excellent family of Houbens and Hofkens down out of Hofkens from Ganus seem to cross well. Best of luck in your search.


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

I suppose both statements are true methodes and strains. So are you just crossing the two lines for racers or crossing then blending back into the family?


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## arvel (Aug 13, 2009)

The latter, I am crossing and then blending them back into the family. I predominately use the line breeding method. Crossing will produce winners but line breeding back into a family seems to result in a greater consistency of top performers.


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

*Blending*

Are you blending the Houbens into the Hofkens or the other way around?


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## arvel (Aug 13, 2009)

Hofkens into the Houbens. I've also interjected a not too well know family called Bellens of Andre Bellens.


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

I have heard of Bellens but know much about him what type of birds are they?


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## arvel (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm not sure what the origin of the Bellens are. From what I know Andre Bellens was from Germany and many noted flyers got birds from him to cross in and develop their families of birds. 

In the late 90's and possibly early 2000's Continental Breeding Station had several breeding pairs of Bellens. That is where mine originated. I got them from a local flyer.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

Favorite crosses: Super 73 Van Loon or Devriendt with just about anything...


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Matt M said:


> Favorite crosses: Super 73 Van Loon or Devriendt with just about anything...


One of my best breeding cock is a Van loon, down from the Avenger line crossed to a hen that's wegge-Van loon, Hofkens-Janssen-Vandenabeele. Where did your Van Loon and Devriendt come from?


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

Yes "Avenger" is a very prominent one in most of mine as well as well as some "Super Secret". They were 1/2 brothers and both sons of 2778. I have a cock and hen that are both inbred Avenger and an older hen who's dam is actually a daughter of Avenger and Missy making her a granddaughter. Her father is a son of "Avenger Jr." and Hekken Champ, which was a pair that threw 15 1st place winners up to 600 miles and AU making him a full brother of 2 different AU Champions for Ken Christopher. I have bought birds from Ken Christopher, Jim Gabler and others bred by those 2 as they have popped up in different places.

The VL's came through for me again this year, crossed to a beautiful grizzle hen I got from Rick Nanez they bred a 200 mile winner in a club with 25 YB flyers. Also on a tough 375 miler to end the YB season there were only about 13 day birds but the trusty VL hen crossed on a Houben cock came through with 7th place and the only day bird from the small group of 5 I sent.

I live in an area where Devriendts go way back, back before way before my time to the days when Campbell Strange first started importing and building his family as a young man and was flying against Hank Vernazza's Janssens. This was before he moved to Texas. So the Lodi cock, Magoo, and also the Tangonan "Primo Pair" Devriendts from Hawaii are still popular. Most do not keep a focused family of them anymore but there are a few. I recently bought an older Devriendt hen of the late Bob Crosbie that came up for auction. Crosbie was well known and long distance master out here. I also have a young Devriendt cock I'm trying out this year from a well known distance flyer where the parents and grandparents on both sides have produced 600 mile winners and day birds. I'm more into middle distance racing but can use the toughness from that so will be trying a few new matings.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Matt M said:


> Yes "Avenger" is a very prominent one in most of mine as well as well as some "Super Secret". They were 1/2 brothers and both sons of 2778. I have a cock and hen that are both inbred Avenger and an older hen who's dam is actually a daughter of Avenger and Missy making her a granddaughter. Her father is a son of "Avenger Jr." and Hekken Champ, which was a pair that threw 15 1st place winners up to 600 miles and AU making him a full brother of 2 different AU Champions for Ken Christopher. I have bought birds from Ken Christopher, Jim Gabler and others bred by those 2 as they have popped up in different places.
> 
> The VL's came through for me again this year, crossed to a beautiful grizzle hen I got from Rick Nanez they bred a 200 mile winner in a club with 25 YB flyers. Also on a tough 375 miler to end the YB season there were only about 13 day birds but the trusty VL hen crossed on a Houben cock came through with 7th place and the only day bird from the small group of 5 I sent.
> 
> I live in an area where Devriendts go way back, back before way before my time to the days when Campbell Strange first started importing and building his family as a young man and was flying against Hank Vernazza's Janssens. This was before he moved to Texas. So the Lodi cock, Magoo, and also the Tangonan "Primo Pair" Devriendts from Hawaii are still popular. Most do not keep a focused family of them anymore but there are a few. I recently bought an older Devriendt hen of the late Bob Crosbie that came up for auction. Crosbie was well known and long distance master out here. I also have a young Devriendt cock I'm trying out this year bred by Carmen Griffis. Parents and grandparents on both sides have produced 600 mile winners and day birds. I'm more into middle distance racing but can use the toughness from that so will be trying a few new matings.


we should get together and do some trading. I also have a HVR/Devriendt cross cock I bought last year which was 23 in average speed in the plymoth peak pro challenge race . On the hen side is the deveriendt blood also inbred from MR Magoo AU 87 WWC 1299 x AU 94OHF 4613 with the "LODI" cock and the "OMAHA COCK" cross to "Karelyn" in the pedigree. The HVR is out of the jones boys CIC 33 #1 Foundation Cock and the 0123 cock who won 500M as a yearling.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

Sure that sounds like a fun idea. I'll send you a PM.


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