# My new baby pigeon now cannot walk or lift its head any more!



## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I began a new thread yesterday asking questions about caring for my pigeon, and was received with tons of great advice and links. We have a new problem. I thought something may be wrong with his right eye because it was closed and his head was tilted down and around and he couldn't walk straight today when I woke up to feed him. My girlfriend noticed it a bit this morning when she fed him, and it was really bad when I tried to feed him, but it seemed decently better when I left for work. She said he wasn't too bad this evening and she had some great feeding sessions with him. She really cleaned him up well, and got him a good bath, he had a lot of KT solution on him from a day and a half of feeding. <see first thread for details of how we've been feeding him>. I got supplies to make the cut off syringe with latex and did so when I got home.
Well he was asleep on my girls chest wrapped up in towels when I came home at 2 AM, and she had just finished a good feeding session.
But he REALLY can't walk anymore. just flips sideways and rolls and can't get up. Its like he can't use his right side. Well he can flap both wings fine, but his right eye doesn't open much, he can't lift his head straight up without it going down and sideways to the right, and it seems he can't really use his right leg to grip with.
I'm really scared. He was so great the first day, and I have no idea what could have happened to him. He's been in a kitty litter box with towels and rags as a nest, and a little water bowl <tiny salsa bowl> he hasn't used, and thats it.
I uploaded some photos in an album in my profile, including a lot from tonight when he couldn't walk or lift his head. I took a few videos, so if anyone could help by watching his behaviour I will send to you. I waws unable to get photos of fresh poop, but I can describe it as dark brown and white mostly all through the first two days here.
Please help!


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

good news and bad news. Good news is the cut off syringe with latex worked like a magic spell. I just fed little Lucky and he really took in his food well. The bad news is it was very hard because he still couldn't lift his head up, it just falls sideways so he's facing left, and he can't walk .. he fell onto his back a few times while I was trying to get his head at a good feeding angle. he was completely fine two days ago and yesterday, ugh so frustrating, there has to be something wrong  
I got a good close look at his right eye, the one that wont open much, and it looks completely fine, just like his left.
Also, another observation. He has a very quiet voice. We heard him coo for the first time yesterday, and it was a very soft high pitched prolonged squeak. thats how it's been ever since. Is this normal?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear your baby bird isn't doing good. Sounds like he might have an infection in the eye which also affects his ear and/or brain, hard to tell, just guessing here.
Are you keeping him warm? He needs to be on a heating pad set on low covered with a towel.
Also you will need an antibiotic. Do you have any on hand?

Reti


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

He should be warm enough right now, how do we get antibiotics for him??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> He should be warm enough right now, how do we get antibiotics for him??


Could be a few things at once, infection, as mentioned and dehydration as well. Make sure for the time being that the Kaytee is quite runny, about the consistency of a melted milkshake, as they get both food and water from the formula.

Get him set us in a smaller version of a donut set up to get him supported and comfortable, as in here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6

Call the tropical fish stores in your area and get two meds, one called Triple-Sulfa by API and the other Metroplex (Metronidazole) by Seachem, although for tropical fish, they work fine with pigeons when mixed right.

http://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=tropical+fish+Austin+TX

When you get the meds I will help you mixing and dosing instruction, you will also need a 1cc syringe (the kind without a needle attached) to administer the medicine. Also, when weak like this, don't stuff him with food, even if he wants it, give no more than 1/2 crop full at a time, and feed again when the crop empties.

Good luck,


Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

One of our members , devorah, lives in Austin. She is a pigeon rescuer and owns the website Austin Duck Police. You could try *contacting her*, maybe she could have a look at him? (The link will take you to her personal profile, there you will find a tab to her contact information.)


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Also, from here on in, use the 'towel' method to hold your baby while feeding him......this way no worries about head flopping, him/her falling down, etc....


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Going to AquaTek right now! funny, theres one two blocks away. Let me know about how to administer!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Going to AquaTek right now! funny, theres one two blocks away. Let me know about how to administer!


Is there anyway you can get this guy weighed, or at least get a photo up of him, as dosing is weight dependent?

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I have some photos of him in my album in my profile, he's a little young un! I'm home and have the two antibiotics!


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

the last three days it doesn't seem like he's been growing or getting more feathers, he still has just feathers on his tail and wings, with several spots that are pink and straight skin. he has little yellow hairs on his head and neck


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> I have some photos of him in my album in my profile, he's a little young un! I'm home and have the two antibiotics!


I had a look at the photos and this little guy looks to be about 20 days old, give or take a bit. From the look of the photos I think his biggest problem is sever malnutrition, a healthy squab (baby pigeon) this age would weigh about 275-300g, I am thinking he weights about 125g. Is there anyway you can get him weighed somehow, also, now that I have seen the photos its even more important that you do not try and over feed this little one too much food, in this condition doing so could very likely cause him harm. I think we should start the meds, as a precaution, but we really need a weight to be precise, anyone you know have a scale?

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Ok, yes I believe he was wandering around in our back yard for at least a few days without food, I figured his mother was taking care of him, but three days ago we decided they weren't, so he may have not gotten much food until we took him in. We've been giving him about 10 ml of runny kaytee for a day, before that we were using an eye dropper and he would get 2-3 droppers worth. I'll go to WalMart down the road right now to get a scale.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Ok, yes I believe he was wandering around in our back yard for at least a few days without food, I figured his mother was taking care of him, but three days ago we decided they weren't, so he may have not gotten much food until we took him in. We've been giving him about 10 ml of runny kaytee for a day, before that we were using an eye dropper and he would get 2-3 droppers worth. I'll go to WalMart down the road right now to get a scale.


Photos can be deceiving, but he really looks to be just skin and bone, it would be great if you could pick up a cheap scale, so we know where we are at. The 10mL of Kaytee for the day will be fine per feeding, but you need to do this each time his crop empties, and this could mean 5-6 times a day, so he should be getting 50-60mL. When I am hand raising a baby, healthy, they may get 90-120mL of Kaytee a day at this age. I find with people new to squabs, they do not really realize how much food a healthy baby pigeon consumes/needs each day.

Also, really important, especially after feeding, you arrange him so his head is supported/propped in an upright position to make sure no food comes back up by accident that he could aspirate.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

ok, yes we've been feeding him 4-5 times a day, but until we made this cut off syringe with latex, it was really really hard. Its just frustrating because he didn't have this problem until yesterday, where his head is always sideways and he can't lift it and can't walk, and just falls down. He got around great before. Yes, he is skin and bones. Bad news about weighing him. a little less than 100. Should I do antibiotics? Also, its been impossible to get him to drink water at all between meals, I was worried about that. He can get enough with runny KT?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> ok, yes we've been feeding him 4-5 times a day, but until we made this cut off syringe with latex, it was really really hard. Its just frustrating because he didn't have this problem until yesterday, where his head is always sideways and he can't lift it and can't walk, and just falls down. He got around great before. Yes, he is skin and bones. Bad news about weighing him. a little less than 100. Should I do antibiotics? Also, its been impossible to get him to drink water at all between meals, I was worried about that. He can get enough with runny KT?


Yes, as I thought, he weighs about a 3rd of what he should. The reason he can't walk is that his body has been consuming itself, meaning, what little muscle mass he had was being used to stay alive, so there is nothing much left to walk, hold his neck up and so on.

We will do the antibiotics in case there are infections issues that contributed to the condition he is now in, I will post the instructions shortly in a post after this one. He is alive, and where there is life there is hope, again, I will mention, too much too fast will bring him harm, so slow and easy with getting food into him. Yes, he will get both the nutrition he needs, and the water from runny Kaytee, you will feed him 10mL at a time, wait until his crop empties and them feed again. If you have, or can find a heating pad, the kind without the auto shut off, we can supplement some heat for him, so his body can devote more resources to rebuilding and less to keeping warm, keeping him warn right now is important beyond this consideration.

Make a nest, keep it warm (if using a heating pad LOW setting only, with a towel double folded on top then the nest), keep him supported in the nest, food and meds for now, food needs to be warm, about 102-104 degrees, not normally a real worry at this age, but it will help him if his food is warm.


Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

thank you so much for the help and kind words! Yes, we have been making sure his food is in that temp range, but there was a 7 hour peroid two days ago that he went without food, which I'm sure did not help. We will make sure to keep him full like you said, not too much, and waiting for his crop to empty. He poops on a regular basis, light tan and yellow, so I figure his body is hopefully using his newfound nourishment.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Here are the instructions for mixing and giving both meds, they can be given at the same time, twice a day.

Get a shot-glass and place 2 1/2 scoops of the Metroplex (Metronidazole) into into it, then to this add 5mL of pancake syrup, stir well, let sit 20 minutes, stir again and you will have a 5% (50mg/mL) suspension to dose with. The 5mL is equal to 1 cooking teaspoon (it must be a cooking teaspoon not a common flatware spoon, or use the 1cc syringe 5 times, to the 1cc mark). Give this little guy 0.10cc (5mg, this is the first line one a 1cc syringe, for reference this will be about 2 drops) and then same every 12 hours for the next 7 days and well reassess then. Stir very well each time you draw a dose and refrigerate between use.

For the Triple-Sulfa:

Each small, individual packet in the API box contains 1000mg of pure Triple-Sulfa med, I want you open one of these packs and dump it on something the glossy magazine cover again. Divide the little pile of Triple-Sulfa (TS) evenly in half so you will now have two piles of 500mg each, use a credit card or a business card, then put other half back in the pack and put away.

I want you to get the shot-glass again, or a very small container and add 10mL of pancake syrup into it, this will be 2 level teaspoons, scrape it all in with your finger (1 teaspoon = 5mL, use a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware teaspoon, as mentioned before). Now with the half pack of the Triple-Sulfa you have set aside (500mg), add this into the 10mL of pancake syrup and stir very well in, cover and let sit for 20 minutes, stir very well again and it will be ready for use. You now have a 5% TS suspension (50mg/mL) to dose with.

You will want to give once more 0.10cc (first line of the 1cc syringe, roughly 2 drops) of the TS every 12 hours as well, this will be 5mg each time. Again, make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med each time you use it and keep it in the refrigerator between use. Just gently open the bird's mouth and place 1-2 drops at a time in the front of his mouth and allow him to tongue it down

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

I'll be keeping a close eye on your thread in case you have concerns or questions.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

pancake syrup like a maple syrup? we have agave nectar, is that ok?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> pancake syrup like a maple syrup? we have agave nectar, is that ok?


Yes, you can use agave nectar, or maple syrup.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Thank you Karyn! I'm at work now, had to leave at 4, but I was able to feed him right before that, and my g/f should be home soon. I'll direct her to this thread so she can administer the antibiotics for him. He ate well, but I have to hold him and hold his head up, then when he gets his beak in the latex I raise the syringe so he can eat well. I watch to make sure he doesn't get too much at once, he's good at stopping to breath. She has s heating pad as well we will make a wRm spot. Right now hes in a kitty litter box with blankets, and a 60 watt bulb right above him, in a room with the AC vent closed, I believe it's over 80 I hope.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I appreciate how fast you have been to get this little one what is required ASAP, from the scale to the meds. With the heating pad you will not need a light bulb above, but make sure there is a towel double folded on top and use only the LOW setting and you should be good.

Also, with the feeding, glad to hear he stops to breath, be real careful with him, as with his loss of neck control there is much more risk of him aspirating some of the formula, slow and easy so none goes down his trachea (windpipe) by accident.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Thank you for the help! We want very much to make sure this little guy can have a good life. One question, should we give him the medicine with food or separate?


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Oh one more question, how long is the kaytee mix good for after we make it?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Oh one more question, how long is the kaytee mix good for after we make it?


I would give the medicine, 1 hour before any food in the morning and the same at night.

When making the Kaytee I want you to start with cold water from the tap, heat the water on the stove until just before boiling, let it cool down 5 minutes and then add it to Kaytee powder. Mix until you have the consistency of a melted milk-shake, and the important part is you now cover this and let it sit 20-30 minutes covered. It will thicken and now make any final adjustments with a bit more water to thin it down some, again to melted milk-shake consistency. When feeding a baby I make enough for the day, take out what I need for the first feeding (adjusting the temp up or down as needed) and put the rest in the refrigerator. I then take what I need through the day from this, after last feeding I throw what is left out and start again in the morning, it will still thicken up again a bit, even after the adjusting with water after sitting for 20-30 minutes, while in the refrigerator, so make any fine adjustments for thickness each time you feed. The instructions will say make fresh each time, but by using cold water, bringing it to a temperature over 160 degrees and then keeping it in the refrigerator, for that day only, you will be fine. Do not use a micro to reheat the cold formula, place what you need into a small deep dish and place this dish into a larger bowl/dish of very hot water and stir until 102-104 degrees, also throw away what is left after each feeding through the day.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Ok we will do that! I have been heating about enough water for 30ml at a time in the microwave, I hope that's ok. We'll make it the way you said from now on!


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## Rivka (May 13, 2011)

This is psygnosis girlfriend. 
Lucky had another good feeding, not to much, and is acting more alert this evening. Both of his eyes are opening and moving at the same time now but he is still very weak. 
I swaddled him in a wash cloth to provide support and made him a "nest" with the heating pad underneath. I will make the medicine and fresh food for him before his next feeding. 
Thank you so much for all the help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Rivka said:


> This is psygnosis girlfriend.
> Lucky had another good feeding, not to much, and is acting more alert this evening. Both of his eyes are opening and moving at the same time now but he is still very weak.
> I swaddled him in a wash cloth to provide support and made him a "nest" with the heating pad underneath. I will make the medicine and fresh food for him before his next feeding.
> Thank you so much for all the help!


Rivka, looks very good, head and neck well supported, just double check, from time to time, he is comfortable in terms of warmth, that he is nicely warm, but not hot in any way (the first sign you may see of this will be open mouth breathing/panting). It is going to take a number of weeks to bring this guy back, so be patient. I would think about every 2 1/2 - 3 hours he should be ready for each feeding, but make sure the last feeding has moved from his crop, so you will be trying for 5 feedings a day right now (but don't push too hard, let his crop tell you how much food he wants). In a few days we can make a few adjustments to the formula, in terms of getting it a little more calorie dense, and perhaps upping feeding amount to 12mL per feeding.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Its 8 AM Friday morning and we just had a great feeding for Lucky! Unfortunately I think we waited too long during the night. We fed him at 1 AM, woke up at 3 to check on him, he was warm and sleeping, and got up at 6:30 and he was out of his nest on the cold floor 
I was unsure of whether to have a 6 hour interval or so between feedings at night and meant to ask. He was very eager to eat of course, and really shnarfed his breakfast down, though we made sure he paced himself. He's relaxed, warm, and resting right now, my sweetheart is at work and I have Fridays off, so I'll sleep a few more hours, I usually get up at noon or later, work evenings .. but I'll set an alarm to check him in three hours for another feeding. We took some pics of him after breakfast this morning to get an opinion of how we're doing, and I got a shot of his poop right after his feeding last night, tan with white. I will edit and post them in my album.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Its 8 AM Friday morning and we just had a great feeding for Lucky! Unfortunately I think we waited too long during the night. We fed him at 1 AM, woke up at 3 to check on him, he was warm and sleeping, and got up at 6:30 and he was out of his nest on the cold floor
> I was unsure of whether to have a 6 hour interval or so between feedings at night and meant to ask. He was very eager to eat of course, and really shnarfed his breakfast down, though we made sure he paced himself. He's relaxed, warm, and resting right now, my sweetheart is at work and I have Fridays off, so I'll sleep a few more hours, I usually get up at noon or later, work evenings .. but I'll set an alarm to check him in three hours for another feeding. We took some pics of him after breakfast this morning to get an opinion of how we're doing, and I got a shot of his poop right after his feeding last night, tan with white. I will edit and post them in my album.


They will wander and at this age, 3 weeks, and there is not the same consequences involved as when a neo-nate loses their heat for a period of time. The wandering is OK, as it will build muscle tone, but you may want to confine the nest to the inside of a box, large enough to accommodate the nest with a small area that is unheated if he choses to move there if for any reason he wants a break from the warmth. You can even cut the sides down so it does not feel too confining for him, as there will no worry that he can fly, or climb out for a while yet, don't be tempted to feed him a little more, even if he seems he wants it, keep it at 10mL right now. The rest sounds about right. Good job.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I need to edit the poop pic to be able to upload it, I will do so later, but I was able to upload a few post feeding photos. So it is ok for him to wander around some, that is good. I was going to ask if its better for him to stay put to conserve energy, or move around some. So is it ok for us take a 5-6 feeding break at night or should we get up and just feed him when his crop empties? We actually fed him a bit more this morning, 11-12 ml. I hope that's not too bad!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> I need to edit the poop pic to be able to upload it, I will do so later, but I was able to upload a few post feeding photos. So it is ok for him to wander around some, that is good. I was going to ask if its better for him to stay put to conserve energy, or move around some. So is it ok for us take a 5-6 feeding break at night or should we get up and just feed him when his crop empties? We actually fed him a bit more this morning, 11-12 ml. I hope that's not too bad!


Yes, he can wander a bit, but best to keep it all confined to a box with a 36"x20" foot print (give or take a bit, line the whole bottom with a large towel)), keep the nest on one side (heat pad always LOW setting) and an unheated area on the other and this should be good, and as mentioned, you can cut the sides down to 8-10" so it's still quite open for him. I know its tempting to start to increase the food amounts when they perk up a bit, in a few days, perhaps tomorrow, we we'll see about upping the amount to 12mL, but keep it at 10mL right now. What I do in these situations is try to arrange the feeding time table so the last feed is at 12-1am, then I am back up at 6am to start again, a larger gap in time through the night should be fine, as long as you are getting the meals into him every 2 1/2 - 3 hours through the day.

Forgot to mention you can place a section of double over paper towels at the bottom of the nest/donut, makes for quick cleanups of the droppings.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Ok, we happen to have a box the pefect size for that, I'll make him a good spot in it in a little bit. He's sleeping now in his nest, I just fed him. He was a little messy and got some of it all over himself, but there was a little bit left from today's batch so we finished it off. I think it was about 10 ml. I woke up to feed him at 10:30 and he had a perfect feeding!
We have NOT started his antibiotics yet, as we were too exhausted last night, and now that I'm caught up on sleep I will mix them using your instructions shortly, and begin tonight at last day's feeding as you said.
No big changes, but he really gets excited about eating, even though he can't lift his head straight. We're getting good at wrapping him up in a little washcloth to feed him, and he has great support and we can help guide his body as he reaches for food.
I think the reason he was messy this time is the hole in the latex is getting bigger, so I trashed it and will make a fresh latex tip for him to eat through.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You're doing great. 

Reti


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I have a question for Karyn about the medication! What is a 'scoop' of metroplex? it came as a powder in a little can with no measurements. 3.4 oz total.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> I have a question for Karyn about the medication! What is a 'scoop' of metroplex? it came as a powder in a little can with no measurements. 3.4 oz total.


If you got Metroplex, inside there is a small scope with the instructions that each scoop is equal to approximately 100mg of Metronidazole, was it Metroplex you picked up?

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Nope, Metro Plus by Health aid. They didn't have the other brand. No scoop or measurement for this one.


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

This packaging says use one capful <which is 9.7 grams> per 10 gallons of water. So I guess there's a measurement to go by!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> This packaging says use one capful <which is 9.7 grams> per 10 gallons of water. So I guess there's a measurement to go by!


Please do not mix or use this just yet, I am unfamiliar with this brand and I need a few minutes to make sure it is pure Metronidazole. Please list all the ingredients on the packaging label.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> This packaging says use one capful <which is 9.7 grams> per 10 gallons of water. So I guess there's a measurement to go by!


This is not pure Metronidazole, you can not use this.

http://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem...ampaign=CommissionJunction&utm_source=3726866


This is what you need to get:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/product...ctId=8163329&source=ComparisonShopping_Become

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Hmm ok! We are out getting food for the humans but I will check when I get back. That isn't the same label or company or packaging as the one you posted a link to. Mine was more expensive too. I will check the label when we get back to feed Lucky at 7:15 and plan accordingly!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Hmm ok! We are out getting food for the humans but I will check when I get back. That isn't the same label or company or packaging as the one you posted a link to. Mine was more expensive too. I will check the label when we get back to feed Lucky at 7:15 and plan accordingly!


We need to at least get the Triple-Sulfa going tonight and follow up with the Metroplex (Metronidazole) as soon as you can get some.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Just finished feeding him. He had some left in his crop, in the light of a lamp I can see the food inside. Cool but a scary reminder of how delicate and fragile he is right now. He had most of his 10ml just then and his crop is bigger and fairly full, I think. I bathed him, used a dryer on low far away to help dry him, and now he's wrapped up and very warm and asleep.
We noticed a little gash that's open behind his right leg, the one he doesn't seem to have much control of. The first day we brought him in I noticed a red spot there but never went back to check it ugh. Its not bleeding or big, but what can we do to help it get better?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Just finished feeding him. He had some left in his crop, in the light of a lamp I can see the food inside. Cool but a scary reminder of how delicate and fragile he is right now. He had most of his 10ml just then and his crop is bigger and fairly full, I think. I bathed him, used a dryer on low far away to help dry him, and now he's wrapped up and very warm and asleep.
> We noticed a little gash that's open behind his right leg, the one he doesn't seem to have much control of. The first day we brought him in I noticed a red spot there but never went back to check it ugh. Its not bleeding or big, but what can we do to help it get better?


We need to get this guy on the Triple-Sulfa now! Get it mixed, wake him up and get him dosed.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Ok! Any cream like neosporin or something to put on it? My search has frustratingly come to a halt for the metroplex. Looks like all aquateks are closed until Monday, I found two other places in Austin that didnt even know what I was talking about. Would it be worth it to just order some from Amazon and have it get here middle of next week? Alternatives?


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I think he got a good two drops of the medicine! First one a perfect drop right on the inside of his beak. second one was a lot harder to get him to open his beak enough so it ended up being two small drips on the inside tip of his beak, but both times it looked like he was licking/sucking it down his throat. Thank you so much for all the guidance!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The worry right now, with you mentioning a scratch, is a systemic infection caused by a bacteria called Pasteurella, outside of other infection concerns that have been on my mind. I want you to shorten the time between the first dose and the second down to 9-10 hours, then go to every 12 hours after that, this will get a higher level of medication in his system quicker. You can apply a bit of Neosporin to the scratch as well.

This little guy is the lightest I have seen a 3 week old, so it is not really day to day with him, it's more like minute to minute right now. Please keep the feeding at 10mL and allow the crop to go flat before feeding again, do not add new food on top of old food in the crop. I want you to pick up some Bragg's apple cider vinegar at the health food store and add 2 drops of this to every 10mL of food you feed.

Please keep calling around for the Metroplex, Seachem is a popular manufacturer so some should be in your area, I hope, also two other brands I know that are 100% Metronidazole are FishZole and Hex-A-Mit, you can ask for these as well.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

We'll make a whole foods trip in a few minutes here! Its frustrating me that I cannot find the metronidazole! Most places are closed until Monday now. We will drive around and call around tomorrow morning, and will administer the second dose 9 hours after the first, which will be 5 AM here. I'm close to saying 'screw it' and ordering some metroplex from Amazon and paying for overnight. It sounds like it might make a difference if we can't get it until Monday


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> We'll make a whole foods trip in a few minutes here! Its frustrating me that I cannot find the metronidazole! Most places are closed until Monday now. We will drive around and call around tomorrow morning, and will administer the second dose 9 hours after the first, which will be 5 AM here. I'm close to saying 'screw it' and ordering some metroplex from Amazon and paying for overnight. It sounds like it might make a difference if we can't get it until Monday


Most important one of the two is the Triple-Sulfa right now, but it would be good if we could get the Metronidazole started soon as well. See what you come up with tomorrow.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Update on Lucky! We just got back from whole foods, found the Bragg's organic apple cider vinegar! We put some teatree oil that we had on his wound, he didn't seem to mind too much. Its really a small gash and looks clean, so hopefull there isn't too much problem of an infection there? we're very glad to know the tetra sulpha is the more important of the two. We will try our best to find the metronidazole tomorrow.
We fed him at 7:30 or so earlier, and its 10:15 right now and his crop is still pretty full, so I'm worried he wasn't ready for his last feeding when I saw some food in his crop still. I'll be careful to check on that, I'll watch him every 20 minutes or so to see how he is doing.
He was excited to see us, and flapped his wings for us. He still can't stand on his own, but he seems a little stronger than yesterday, and isn't getting worse in any way.
He had a poop from right after last feeding, and a poop just then when we were playing with him, and the last one was pretty thick. I do not think I mixed enough water in his last feeding, which may be a reason why it hasn't all passed yet?
I will be very careful about that in the future. I'm learning too bit by bit, getting more experience!


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

i wish that baby all the best.
poor baby i love him he is soo pretty i looked at your pic on the profile he is soo unique 
poor lil bbay i hope he makes it


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Update on Lucky! We just got back from whole foods, found the Bragg's organic apple cider vinegar! We put some teatree oil that we had on his wound, he didn't seem to mind too much. Its really a small gash and looks clean, so hopefull there isn't too much problem of an infection there? we're very glad to know the tetra sulpha is the more important of the two. We will try our best to find the metronidazole tomorrow.
> We fed him at 7:30 or so earlier, and its 10:15 right now and his crop is still pretty full, so I'm worried he wasn't ready for his last feeding when I saw some food in his crop still. I'll be careful to check on that, I'll watch him every 20 minutes or so to see how he is doing.
> He was excited to see us, and flapped his wings for us. He still can't stand on his own, but he seems a little stronger than yesterday, and isn't getting worse in any way.
> He had a poop from right after last feeding, and a poop just then when we were playing with him, and the last one was pretty thick. I do not think I mixed enough water in his last feeding, which may be a reason why it hasn't all passed yet?
> I will be very careful about that in the future. I'm learning too bit by bit, getting more experience!


Please get the tea tree oil off this bird ASAP (warm soapy water), this is poisonous to them. I know this bird is in your care, but please ask before you start doing things you think might be of benefit.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Done and won't happen again! He still has some food in his crop so I'm refraining from feeding. He's very energetic and getting plenty of exercise, and pooped a lot less thick.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Done and won't happen again! He still has some food in his crop so I'm refraining from feeding. He's very energetic and getting plenty of exercise, and pooped a lot less thick.


Good, with this little guy we have almost zero room to get things wrong, he has no reserves for mistakes, so it's important if you are unsure of something or have thoughts or an idea, to run it by here first. Good luck tomorrow with the Metronidazole.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Understood! We definitely don't want to make any mistakes. I'm staying up until his crop is empty to give him another feeding, and I have my alarm set for 5 AM for the next dose of medicine.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good, we'll just keep trying out best for him.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I just held him for a bit, he's so excited about eating, but still has a bit in his crop. Had a really good big watery poop so I bet he's almost ready. I'm checking on him every ten minutes.


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

ok so its now been 6 hours since his last feeding and he has food in his crop. not a lot at all, but I know I shouldn't feed him until its empty. He's been pooping consistently, so I'm hoping he's just digesting slowly. I think its my fault for not realizing his crop was more full than I thought when I fed him at 7:30. He's REALLY energetic, held onto my hand well and flapped around a long time! I tried to settle him down to rest some more while he's digesting.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> ok so its now been 6 hours since his last feeding and he has food in his crop. not a lot at all, but I know I shouldn't feed him until its empty. He's been pooping consistently, so I'm hoping he's just digesting slowly. I think its my fault for not realizing his crop was more full than I thought when I fed him at 7:30. He's REALLY energetic, held onto my hand well and flapped around a long time! I tried to settle him down to rest some more while he's digesting.


You can make the next feeding just a bit looser to hydrate what's in the crop and help move it along, make sure you are adding 2 drops of the ACV to each 10mL of formula, this will help with keeping any slow moving food in the crop from doing things we don't want it to do.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Ok. I still think I had the food at 7:30 a bit too thick, so I'm glad to hear that mistake can be remedied. I will start using the acv like you said also. should I go ahead and feed him now with the looser food?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Ok. I still think I had the food at 7:30 a bit too thick, so I'm glad to hear that mistake can be remedied. I will start using the acv like you said also. should I go ahead and feed him now with the looser food?


Yes, go ahead and feed him, but try about 8mL instead of the usual 10mL, you can still add the 2 drops to this amount.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

update. I just fed him and he loved it. It seemed tougher this time for some reason, I thought he was gulping down the food but it took awhile to get most his food down, maybe since I had it more runny? He took in most of it, which I think is about right because I put in 11ml or so to compensate for lost food since we're both still learning, him how to eat and me how to feed. I'm experimenting with the cut off syringe and latex and holding it sideways more when he sticks his beak in, to let him try to drink it more on his own. This seems to be a much slower process, but if I tilt the syringe up much the food seems to go everywhere sometimes. I've experimented with different cuts in the latex and this time I think I found a good cut, just enough for him to get in but not so big it spills everywhere.
His crop is a little over half full now I believe, and he's resting well, though it took a bit of time after the feed to settle him down. He was really wanting to fly through the sky, flapping his wings a lot and trying to get up my hand.
Still too weak to walk straight or keep his head up, but I know that will take time.


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Perfect timing on your post! I think he took in 8-9ml total, and I added a little more cider than you said, just a tad, to make up for the extra I put in the syringe.


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

That was the most active he's been in two days, his wings seem to be strong. I hope that's a good sign!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Be careful with the ACV, I am not sure what a tad is for you, but if you do the math, it works out to be 1 drop for every 5mL of fluid/formula.

Glad he seems active, how is his neck and leg strength coming?

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Yes 1 drop per 5 ml. He had a good feeding this morning at 7 and another one right now, he took down all 10 ml and his crop was completely empty before both times. He's still very energetic but still can't walk or lift his head. We're being patient and helping support him when feeding and when he sleeps. His balance is definitely improving! We will post some new photos tonight. He's growing more feathers everywhere!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Yes 1 drop per 5 ml. He had a good feeding this morning at 7 and another one right now, he took down all 10 ml and his crop was completely empty before both times. He's still very energetic but still can't walk or lift his head. We're being patient and helping support him when feeding and when he sleeps. His balance is definitely improving! We will post some new photos tonight. He's growing more feathers everywhere!


Glad his crop is emptying better, new feathers are a good sign that the little guy's body is taking in the new nutation, just keep doing what you are doing, we are still going to hold off for a bit on increasing feeding amounts, but I want you to start adding 10 drops of fresh olive oil (must be very fresh, not sitting on your shelf for a while) to each 10mL of formula you are feeding. This will give about a 40% boost in the calorie density of what you are feeding him (doing this will add about 16.5 kcal to his calorie intake for the day over 5 feedings), although the 10 drops is a small amount, make sure it is stirred/blended in very well (continue to add the ACV as well).

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Update. The bad news is we drove around and called every place we could find and look up, and no 100% metronidazole anywhere. Two places normally carry it, and are now out. One said they will have some Tuesday, so it looks like realistically that's the soonest we can get him that.
The good news is he's doing well, he had two good feedings today, the last one we boosted with the 10 drops of olive oil, fresh organic extra virgin. His crop is emptying nicely, a little slower after this last feeding but doing well. We just gave him his tetra sulpha and he took it down nicely. He played for 15minutes with us, talking a little, flapping around, and walking. We held his weak right side up so he could walk better, and a few times he walked on his own, showing good strength! He can't hold his head up yet, but he almost did a few times, and he reached back to his left very far to preen himself for the first time I've seen. I tried to get him to settle down so he could wait an hour to feed after the medicine, he's mostly resting now. We will feed him when his new batch of food is ready, just made some.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the wonderful update.
You guys are doing an amazing job.

Reti


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good, with some encouraging mentions made. Continue to keep a close eye on formula temperature and thickness and we'' start the Metronidazole Tuesday.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Update: Nothing big to report here! We're keeping his food within 102-104, with a reasonable thickness. We got it a little runny once last night but there didn't seem to be any problems. He took a little longer to digest the first time we put the olive oil in, but only an hour or so. We had two good feedings last night, his 4th dose of tetra sulpha at 5 AM, three feedings today <including one just then>, and he continues to show steps in the right direction and no steps backward. He was very fiesty this morning, really flapping around and trying to walk around. His wings seem to be strong, and have a beautiful fan of feathers. He loses a few tiny feathers sometimes, but some new sets of feathers are noticeable on him, the back of his neck, under his wings, on his belly. With help he can extent his neck way up now, but I have to hold his head a little for him. He can stand straight up on his own now about half of the time, which was unheard of a few days ago. He has a tad more neck strength, but still can't sit his head straight up, it still spends most its time down to the right sideways, although he's trying hard, most the time when hes trying to walk on his own his head is closer to a 45 degree angle rather than 90.
Keeping up hope!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Update: Nothing big to report here! We're keeping his food within 102-104, with a reasonable thickness. We got it a little runny once last night but there didn't seem to be any problems. He took a little longer to digest the first time we put the olive oil in, but only an hour or so. We had two good feedings last night, his 4th dose of tetra sulpha at 5 AM, three feedings today <including one just then>, and he continues to show steps in the right direction and no steps backward. He was very fiesty this morning, really flapping around and trying to walk around. His wings seem to be strong, and have a beautiful fan of feathers. He loses a few tiny feathers sometimes, but some new sets of feathers are noticeable on him, the back of his neck, under his wings, on his belly. With help he can extent his neck way up now, but I have to hold his head a little for him. He can stand straight up on his own now about half of the time, which was unheard of a few days ago. He has a tad more neck strength, but still can't sit his head straight up, it still spends most its time down to the right sideways, although he's trying hard, most the time when hes trying to walk on his own his head is closer to a 45 degree angle rather than 90.
> Keeping up hope!


Thanks for the detailed update, seems like in very small steps he is making his way back, from a very bad place, with your care. Be patient, it took a while for him to get like this, and it's going to take some time and effort to help him recover. Sounds like you are well aware of what needs to be done now and are doing it, hopefully one day soon he will surprise you, by holding his neck up on his own.

Good job,

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Update: nothing too big to report. Yesterday he started flapping his wings REALLY fast and strong and it surprised me and he jumped out of my hands! He didn't fall far but got a tiny knock in his skin on his crop where he has no feathers  I washed it well and put neosporin on it so hopefully all is well. The little gash behind his right lev has closed up completely and looks to be healing well. He's still losing small feathers but the new bunches are getting noticeable even after a day. He's very energetic when I feed him and shakes his beak around sometimes, getting a little messy. His balance continues to get better with every feeding it seems. He's still skin and bones but his strength seems to be getting a lot better. Today he walked on his own without my supporting his right side and he did fine! It wasn't a straight walk and his head isn't up but it's big progress from a dew days ago. When I'm holding him he likes to try to walk up my hands and flaps his wings so strong its windy! I try to hold the right side of his head up to help him practice using those neck muscles.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Update: nothing too big to report. Yesterday he started flapping his wings REALLY fast and strong and it surprised me and he jumped out of my hands! He didn't fall far but got a tiny knock in his skin on his crop where he has no feathers  I washed it well and put neosporin on it so hopefully all is well. The little gash behind his right lev has closed up completely and looks to be healing well. He's still losing small feathers but the new bunches are getting noticeable even after a day. He's very energetic when I feed him and shakes his beak around sometimes, getting a little messy. His balance continues to get better with every feeding it seems. He's still skin and bones but his strength seems to be getting a lot better. Today he walked on his own without my supporting his right side and he did fine! It wasn't a straight walk and his head isn't up but it's big progress from a dew days ago. When I'm holding him he likes to try to walk up my hands and flaps his wings so strong its windy! I try to hold the right side of his head up to help him practice using those neck muscles.


Thanks for the positive update. No changes, or suggestions to recommend today, just keep doing what you are doing. Since he is on antibiotics, just a little Neosporin on the crop nick should be just fine and don't anticipate any issues with this.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

9pm on Tuesday May 17th:
Same direction for everything! Small progress with neck strength and walking. Today he walked on his own for the first time, though his neck was turned he could mostly walk straight. He has a ton of energy, loves flapping around hard in my hands while he climbs my hands, and it's harder to get him to sette down between feedings. Gash behind his right leg almost completely healed. New range of feathers growing by the day. Crop is emptying over N hour quicker, and he's taking in his food quicker. Still hasn't gained much noticeable weight but over all strength is so much better. He's restless sometimes and really doesn't like staying in his taco, and walks around in his box, though we have to check on him, sometimes his head gets stuck. His body warmth seems very stable, he doesn't get cold as easily and feels very warm even if he sleeps outside his taco.
Metroplex acquired today too!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> 9pm on Tuesday May 17th:
> Same direction for everything! Small progress with neck strength and walking. Today he walked on his own for the first time, though his neck was turned he could mostly walk straight. He has a ton of energy, loves flapping around hard in my hands while he climbs my hands, and it's harder to get him to sette down between feedings. Gash behind his right leg almost completely healed. New range of feathers growing by the day. Crop is emptying over N hour quicker, and he's taking in his food quicker. Still hasn't gained much noticeable weight but over all strength is so much better. He's restless sometimes and really doesn't like staying in his taco, and walks around in his box, though we have to check on him, sometimes his head gets stuck. His body warmth seems very stable, he doesn't get cold as easily and feels very warm even if he sleeps outside his taco.
> Metroplex acquired today too!



OK, sounds good. I think it's time to make the meals still more calorie dense. To do this I want you to buy a container of human baby soy based formula like this: http://www.grocerycouponnetwork.com/foodproducts/products.php?Id=356 , you will make this and use this, instead of plain water, to make up the Kaytee formula. It does not have to be this particular brand, but it has to be soy based, nothing else. The directions for all of them will be quite similar, 1 scoop of powder (included in package) to 60mL (2oz) of water will yield a milk containing .67kcal/mL.

For the first few days of using this I want you to mix it 1/2 strength, so 1/2 a scoop per 60mL, this will yield .33kcal/mL, or about 3kcal extra per 10mL meal. Doesn't sound like like a lot, but this will be another nice boost in calories over the day, 15kcal over 5 meals, and an important thing about adding this in is there will an across the board addition of essential nutrients and vitamins to help him grow contained in the soy formula. As I mentioned very early, we do not want to rush him, in 2-3 days of him doing well with this you will make the soy milk full strength, and this will again boost things for him.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Ok! I got Parent's Choice, soy based instant powder formula, looks like it's very similar in vitamin and nutrient ingredients as the one you showed. A few things to clarify, I am to make this formula into liquid and use it in place of water with the KayTee Exact, right? Also, do we still add the 10 drops of olive oil and two drops of apple cider vinegar? And I'm assuming these meals will still be 10 ml? Also, how do we incorporate this with the technique we used before of heating the water to above 160, let sit for 5 mins, then mix and let sit for 20-30 min?
I just fed him his last meal of the old mix, he loved it, and I let him flap around while supporting his head, and also let him walk up my arm, perfect balance now, even with a crooked head.
Holding onto that hope a lot stronger now.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Ok! I got Parent's Choice, soy based instant powder formula, looks like it's very similar in vitamin and nutrient ingredients as the one you showed. A few things to clarify, I am to make this formula into liquid and use it in place of water with the KayTee Exact, right? Also, do we still add the 10 drops of olive oil and two drops of apple cider vinegar? And I'm assuming these meals will still be 10 ml? Also, how do we incorporate this with the technique we used before of heating the water to above 160, let sit for 5 mins, then mix and let sit for 20-30 min?
> I just fed him his last meal of the old mix, he loved it, and I let him flap around while supporting his head, and also let him walk up my arm, perfect balance now, even with a crooked head.
> Holding onto that hope a lot stronger now.


Yes, just as you describe. You will make the Kaytee formula exactly the same way as before, but now just use the mixed soy milk, instead of plain water, to mix with the Kaytee, everything else will be the same. The only real visible, or tactile difference, will be that the Kaytee will now look a touch lighter in color is all. The instructions on the soy formula may instruct boiling the water, for similar reasons why I wanted you to get the water temperature over 160 degrees, but not really necessary. Just do as before, get water over 160, add 1/2 scope of formula for each 60mL of water (you can add the soy at very hot temps, then cool for 5 min), mix in the Kaytee to melted milk-shake consistency, cover and let sit 20 min., adjust for for correct thinness with a bit more soy milk, and add the oil and ACV as before, adjust temp to 102-104 degrees, keep meals at 10mL, then feed.

By the way, nice to hear about the walk up your arm, with perfect balance, the neck shouldn't be too far behind.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Got it. He's had three good meals with the new mix and loves it! Got his first dose of metronidazole along with the tetra sulpha this AM. He seems to be doing well. We have to Check on him more often cause he wanders in his box a lot more and ends up with his head stuck in bad looking positions, but he has plenty of energy, loves to try to fly!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> Got it. He's had three good meals with the new mix and loves it! Got his first dose of metronidazole along with the tetra sulpha this AM. He seems to be doing well. We have to Check on him more often cause he wanders in his box a lot more and ends up with his head stuck in bad looking positions, but he has plenty of energy, loves to try to fly!


Glad he likes it. On Friday, if things continue as they are, instead of the 1/2 scoop of soy formula, go to the full scoop. I still want to keep the meal size small I think for the present time, until we get him over 200g, then we will increase the size of the meals to 12-15mL. Then very shortly after that, I want to start to get him eating small seeds.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Little Lucky is loving his new diet on day 2. His crop is still emptying pretty quick and he continues to be energetic and restless. Most the time when we go in to check on him he's out of his taco and kinda standing there somewhere in his box with his head sideways. No more progress with his head, but I know we need to be patient. When he flaps his wings really hard he really loses control of his head and we have to try to hold it up for him, but its always been like that when he tries to fly. The new feathers continue to grow, as he continues to lose a few feathers here and there too, I'm guessing from when he goes crazy with his wings, he's so excited and wants so hard to fly! The knick on his crop is looking fine, and we inspect him for any new injuries every other feeding or so, looking good! I tried to weigh him, and I wonder if I need a better scale than a cheap $9 walmart scale, this one seems to think everything weighs the same unless its significantly heavier. I say this because the scale says he's about 100 mg, which is almost the same as when I first posted, and his overall body growth has been noticeable to us. I don't think he's the 200 mg that our goal is yet, but I'm just not sure about him not gaining any weight at all the last two weeks. Before, when his crop was full, it was almost fatter and bigger than his body. Now, its noticeably more proportionate with the rest of his body.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

A kitchen scale is very helpful when you have pijies
I got mine at bed bath&beyond and had a five dollar coupon, cost me about 30$. But you might find one cheaper online.
You are doing a wonderful job with this baby, he is lucky to have found you.
Thanks for the update.


Reti


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

your doing great with this bird, and glad you have the patience that is nessessary, i'm sure he'll get stronger & better in time.
Ive found that some cheap scales are pretty off at low weights, but more accurate and sensitive when weighing heavier objects.
you could try weiging him with say a new bag of sugar on the scales, then deduct the weight of the sugar (if you check weight of sugar is correct first that would let you know how accurate the scales are).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, a more accurate scale may be in order here, as with the effort and care you have been putting into him feeding over the last week, I would expect a nice gain in weight. Reti has made a good suggestion, and Quazar's idea of putting something on the scale that is heavier, with an established weight, and then adding Lucky on top and doing the math might be a good fill in for now. Would not mind seeing some new photos, and with the neck, it might be a worthwhile idea to gently bend the neck past upright toward the opposite side the head falls, to to give a bit of therapy to the neck muscles, repeating this a number of times.

The rest sounds good, 

Karyn


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## Rivka (May 13, 2011)

There are two new photos of Lucky here: https://picasaweb.google.com/116011680325669319031/Downloads?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2sNf5ys2R5AE# I've started working with his neck as you suggested. I noticed this evening that his poops are a lot more runny and watery than normal. Is this something we should worry about?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Rivka said:


> There are two new photos of Lucky here: https://picasaweb.google.com/116011680325669319031/Downloads?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2sNf5ys2R5AE# I've started working with his neck as you suggested. I noticed this evening that his poops are a lot more runny and watery than normal. Is this something we should worry about?


Rivka, when on formula, especially runny formula, I don't usually worry too much about quite wet and loose droppings, as this is common when this type of diet. That being said, the addition of the Metronidazole can loosen up things a bit more, but we will keep an eye on this and best to post up a photo of his droppings to have a look see. The biggest thing to pay attention to is any negative change in demeanor and activity level, once he is acting well and is bright, chipper and inquisitive, as usual, then things should not be amiss.

I could not see any photos in the link you posted, you can post photos directly in your posts/thread, here is how:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525049&postcount=15

Did you guys try playing with the scale a bit, to see of you can get a better weight for Lucky?

Karyn


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## Rivka (May 13, 2011)

Ok, here are the pics from this evening  I messed with the scale but it seems really unreliable. Planning on buying a better one after work. I will try to get a pic of poops and post that as well.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Lucky does look like he has put some weight on. Also with the neck, I think we are going to have to make a little more effort to bring it back, so I want you to use your thumb, forefinger and index finger to grasp Lucky's head, thumb on one side, two fingers on the the other. Then with your other hand I want you to cover him over and gently restrain him, head poking out between the thumb and circled forefinger, like when you make an OK sign. I want you to gently pull and extend Lucky's neck out until you meet resistance, hold for a moment or two and release back. Their natural tendency when doing this is to pull back and give resistance to their neck being extended and this should help also build tone to the neck. The exercise I mentioned before (side to side) and this one should be done on an empty crop and then when finished wait 10 minutes before feeding, be very gentle with all of this but you want to feel some resistance taking place to know the muscles are being challenged.

Also, with his feet, do they extend out most of the time like this \l/ (in the bottom photo), or do they remain balled quite a bit, like in the top photo (right foot)?

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I just had those exercises with him, and let him try to walk around and flap around so I could watch his feet. He didn't mind the exercises too much, it seems to bug him more to turn his head to the left sideways than it does to stretch his neck straight out. He still just keeps it tilted right, but sometimes if I hold it high and up when he's standing around, he can hold it up almost for a second after I let go, so I've been trying to do that a lot with him. I was worried last night because he seemed to have lost some more feathers, maybe from messing around in his box when we were asleep, but all his new feathers are still growing. Small feathers, but bit by bit.
I had a question. Should we leave the light on all the time for him? We had been leaving it on even at night, but would it be easier for him to get some rest with the light off? I worry because he doesn't seem to have full use of his eyesight yet because of his head tilt.
He just had a really good feeding and it was hard to get him to settle down in his nest, kept wanting to fly or walk around. When I went in to get him for his exercise and feeding just then he was out of his nest, standing there doing well, head tilted, but he wasn't stuck or anything.


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

I forgot to answer your question about his claws. They definitely don't have much control, but they have strength. They get stuck on anything easily, and he can grip my hand well, but its hard to walk all the time. It seems like his right claw spends more time closed up and his left one is better at moving around and spreading out.
Also, I went to check on him and he was out of his nest so I picked him up to let him play, and he really flapped around hard a long time! But now I can't get him to settle down, and he's so hot, I can see his beak opening and closing and I can hear a little sigh every time. I turned off the heating pad for now, it does seem hot in the back room, we don't have AC blowing into it. Should we give him some AC? How can we keep him cool? He's seemed hot the last few days, maybe from his boost of energy and enthusiasm. I worry because I know he's not ready to fly, and he's trying to hard he's knocking off his feathers bit by bit.


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Just had the best feeding of the last few days for me! I've made some observations .. he was really hyper before the feeding and flapped around really hard in my hands and three of his decent sized wing feathers just came off, so I'm hoping thats just because he's getting very active? Also, overall it seems like he really doesn't like being wrapped up any more. I can't get him to stay in his taco hardly at all after feedings, and its very tough to get him to settle down to let me get him into one to feed.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

May be time to rearrange Lucky's box a bit. Place the donut up in a corner and have a more open area where the heating pad is under (LOW only) and he can choose where he wants to be, make sure one side has no heat so he can move to it when even he does no want the warmth. No AC for this little guy, just room temperature, well ventilated if the room feels stale (but watch this we do not want the room cool in any way at all). I keep the lights on until I have finished my last feed or medication round, then lights out until the morning. The feathers are being replaced and coming out out fairly easy, I venture to guess, because of the lack of nutrition he suffered, as a result, very poor quality feathers were produced. Here is a post by Phil I just posted in another thread detailing how to get better control of these little guys for feeding and medicating:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=574132&postcount=32

With his feet, I think we need to get at least the right foot taped up to hold it in proper position to aid them in correcting, here is a post with taped feet to show you what I mean:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=528643&postcount=26

You want to use either Micropore (3M), or Mephix or Hypaphix tape (mostly in medical supply stores, but some drug stores do carry them, the last two), These are breathable tapes with give, to be able to support a proper position while at the same time allowing the foot to move some to build tone in the toes.

With the neck exercises, you not only want to extend the neck, but want to feel him resisting, pulling back on you to challenge the muscles. You can also extend in different directions and angles so more areas are involved in the neck as possible (again, very gentle with all of this).

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

No luck with the tape, not those three specific kinds anyway, is any breathable stretchy tape ok? She just went out and found something similar at Walgreens but it wasn't Micropore, and the other two weren't there.
He's had great feedings today! She saw a little bit of blood under his wing that's lost over half its feathers earlier, but I just checked closely and didn't see any injuries. He's very chipper and still adamant about flapping his wings wildly. After watching closer I do believe the whole time his right claws have mostly been closed up, though he can grip with them and sometimes walk straight on it. No difference with his neck. I can get him to resist when I move his head to the opposite of where he has it, but as for straight up neck stretches I can't get him to resist at all. He doesn't react. I stop when I feel the natural tension of how far his neck can go of course and am gentle, but he never pulls back himself.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Psygnosis99 said:


> No luck with the tape, not those three specific kinds anyway, is any breathable stretchy tape ok? She just went out and found something similar at Walgreens but it wasn't Micropore, and the other two weren't there.
> He's had great feedings today! She saw a little bit of blood under his wing that's lost over half its feathers earlier, but I just checked closely and didn't see any injuries. He's very chipper and still adamant about flapping his wings wildly. After watching closer I do believe the whole time his right claws have mostly been closed up, though he can grip with them and sometimes walk straight on it. No difference with his neck. I can get him to resist when I move his head to the opposite of where he has it, but as for straight up neck stretches I can't get him to resist at all. He doesn't react. I stop when I feel the natural tension of how far his neck can go of course and am gentle, but he never pulls back himself.


The Walgreen's tape should be fine, as long as it's breathable and has give, it's important we get that foot taped out like \l/, so the correction can get going, you may want to do both if the other has any issues as well. New feathers do have good blood supply to them, sometimes referred to as "blood feathers", and he could have damaged one in his exuberance, hence the blood, keep an eye on the area though. With his neck, just keep at it, the reason there is no resistance is because there is little to no muscle mass/tone in the neck area, so even though you may not feel any real resistance taking place, I am hoping you working the neck will encourage the neck to get stronger. Glad the feedings are going well, any luck with getting a closer weight by putting something on the scale, then adding Lucky?

Karyn


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## Rivka (May 13, 2011)

Psyg has a big update and some pictures from this evening. Wow the taped feet is like magic!


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

No huge differences to report but a lot to talk about. We found MicroPore tape and decided to tape up both feet, his right foot was closed up and his left foot kinda worked but not always. We have a few questions about this. She taped up his feet in the triangle formation but what to do about his back claw, we decided to leave it free. The toughest was what to do with his claws, the tips. No way to get them straight, so she tried as best she could and the claws kept going sideways and they got taped that way. I posted several new photos in my album tonight that can hopefully help show what we're doing and can gain some feedback. The great news is this taping really helped him instantly, not catching his claws on everything, as long as he has a non slippery surface to walk on, he can do it.
He still can't raise his head on his own, but as you said, we will continue to work on it and be patient. Tonight he raised his head up high on his own for a second before collapsing into the sideways position. We continue to do the neck exercises like you explained.
He may not have much neck muscle, but we have noticed and felt new muscle in his lower body and <of course> wings, and he is fatter than when we first rescued him.
We bought a higher quality scale today and he is still way underweight, 111 grams. We understand as you said, it will take weeks to bring him back, so most of what we've seen today brings us great hope.
He has lost most of the feathers he had when we brought him in, and looks even more scraggly right now than before, but we're seeing a burst of new feathers everywhere, including his belly where I showed in a pic, and on his crop and neck and under his wings, where we can see the little black spikes. My favorite is his outburst of feathers underneath him, where he was bare before, and within a matter of 2 days has bright white feathers.
He's lost all his tail feathers and most his feathers on his wings but continues to show great strength and excitement with his flapping. He wear's himself out quickly with his flapping inbetween meals, noticeable from his fast breathing and gasping.
We have a very determined soul, here!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

With the taping, you tape the three front toes in a triangle, as you mention \l/, make the triangle, place foot on tape, have inch or so you fold back on top of the toes to lock and align them, you will be using a longer piece of tape so once you tape the front, there is still a good bit toward the back that you will lay the rear toe, then fold the tape over it, back toward the front and then make a small cut in the middle so the tape goes around the ankle and a bit back on top of the front toes. You will not be able to get the toes exactly straight up and down, this is not a worry, just get them all positioned the best you can, one piece of tape only, so there is lots of give and that's it. To remove the tape you soak it with a bit of light baby oil, let sit 10 minutes and the tape will easily come of, wash feet with warm soapy water before re-taping, and dry, or the tape will not stick.

Glad the taping seems to have helped a lot with his mobility and balance and again, with the neck, there are little signs there, you just have to keep working at it and be patient, as there actually may be some resistance from him, but it may be very subtle at this point, for the known reasons of not much there to work with.

Will him now on full strength soy, the oil and the Kaytee, I feel you will really start to see an increase in him putting on some more weight. It is also my hope, because the soy has so much vitamins and minerals in it, it will help a good deal in him adding muscle.

Sounds from your description of him lot of new pin feathers are happening, this is indicative of what we can see is also happening inside as well, that we can't see. A long way to go still, and far from out of the woods, but yes, a little fighter.

Good job,

Karyn


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## Rivka (May 13, 2011)

Sad news, Lucky passed away. 
When I got him for his last feeding he was very energetic and begging for food. As soon as he started his feeding he calmed and very quickly seemed to fall asleep. I pulled the bottle away expecting him to stir but he was very still.... 
Psyg and I spent some time both holding him and talking to him. We both thank you very much for all the support for the little guy.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Rivka, I was truly hoping not to hear this news from you guys, this is just terrible. I knew when I saw the photos of Lucky this was not going to be easy at all. I think he had gone just too far the down and his body systems were perhaps beyond a point where they could repair themselves. With the care and amount of food you were getting into him the last number of days, he really should have gained more than 11 or so grams. I am so very sorry for your loss, I know this must hurt a great deal, please accept my sincerest condolences at this time. There is not a shadow of a doubt he knew you both loved and cared for him deeply.

Karyn


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## Psygnosis99 (May 11, 2011)

Neither of us knew what we were getting into when we took him under our wing, but this experience has been very rewarding. Even with the sad ending we have no regrets. We stepped up to the plate and did our very best, and because of that, he had a better life than he would have had. We were able to provide him food, shelter, medicine, and most importantly, a family and love. He passed away free of suffering, in the arms of his loved ones, and our lives are enriched because of him. Thank of you all for the wonderful support and advice and help, thank you.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Ive not been around much the last few days but have been following your thread avidly.
It was sad to hear that Lucky passed away, but you did everything you possibly could for him to make his life comfortable.
He was indeed Lucky that he had the two of you to care for him.


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## Flemingo (Aug 16, 2021)

Sorry , just noticed it's an old post


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