# Polygamous Breeding



## learning (May 19, 2006)

Hi Folks,

I am sure everyone is up to their armpits in future combine champions by now and I thought this might be a good time to pop this question out there.

Does anybody have any information or experience with a polygamous or "Bull" breeding system? I am curious to learn more about the logistics of how this system might work. I know that Rick Mardis has a video out that explains his system but I am trying to avoid dropping $50 for the tape if I can avoid it. I realize that this type of system would only be beneficial if you had a really tremendous, pre-potent cock and that if you didn't you could do more harm than good to your loft population. Just curious how to make it work from a timing standpoint with pumpers, new hens, etc., etc.

Thanks for any info anybody can throw my way.

Dan


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I have no idea how it works. I'm sure I've seen an article on the WWW, but I'll be doggoned if I can find it now. I looked at the RPD web site, but the only articles they listed are in mags that we don't have, as we didn't even have pigeons yet.back in 1999 and early 2000........sorry.......Keep looking though, I wouldn't shell out $50 either.........


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am sure everyone is up to their armpits in future combine champions by now and I thought this might be a good time to pop this question out there.
> 
> ...


Dan,

Maybe you should buy that video, and then boot leg a copy of it for me ! I watched it once upon a time, but dismissed it as too complicated to be pratical. But, that was before I paid more for a cock bird, then my 1st house. Now, I can see why such a system makes sense.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Video*

Warren,

Yea, I probably will end up buying the video in the long run, but when you are spending as much money as I am trying to finish a loft, that $50 looks like 3 sheets of siding to me!!   

When I do get it...FCC be damned, I'll get you a copy!

Dan


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Another way to increase the blood from a cock bird or for that matter a hen is to use pumpers. Switch eggs out from the good pair under a pair of pumpers. The good pair will soon produce another pair of eggs. Thus 4 offspring in a bit more time than it would to produce one. Do this for a few seasons with the offspring and you will soon have a colony with the blood of that cock. The third season you could breed him with a graddaughter and use pumpers again. Breed to his line. Three or four seasons you could fill a loft with his offspring. I am doing this with two lines of birds. If you can obtain syblings off of a line you like you can move much faster. The second year you can breed cousins then the third their offspring back to the foundation birds. All the birds I breed, this my third season, will be off of four foundation pairs. Two sisters and A brother and sister via Vic Miller birds, An Engels bird, A Ganus bird (Ikon, Magic Star), A Calia/Klak Janssen bird and an original Janssen bird. All my other six breeding pairs are related to one or more of these four pairs. I founded my loft on six pairs of birds. Two did not produce, they are my pumpers. I will test the lines this year and narrow it down to one best line. I am thinking I will then split the other two pair and cross them into the best line before I rid myself of them. I want to stay small so I am limiting myself to the 10 best producing pairs and keep two or three pairs of pumpers. My goal is to have every bird in the loft closely related to numerous winning birds, establish a winning line, and then cross key winning birds into this line for hybred vigor. 
For those who are purchasing Warrens birds, I would fly them and if they beat the pants off of your birds, take the best two or four and start you a new line of birds. Give your other flock to the guy down the street. My birds were the best birds in 6 local lofts that flew them this year. I think the reason is that I went to a few winning lofts and founded my loft from offspiring and sibblings of key futurity winning birds from sound families. I did not just take any birds from the first guy that would give them to me. I then crossed a few birds in to spice it up a bit. 
Read the article in the RPD, Jan 1, about how Art Hees moved to Florida and how he founded his new loft off of a few key birds. Warren is looking for his few best birds, by testing their offspirng. A very wise idea in my opinion. Also study Marcel Sangers strategy. He looked to the 05, James Bond and Wonderboys lines that he had narrowed down. He established his own line of birds. He then crossed quality established line such as Koopman birds into them. If you study the birds of Sangers and such fanciers as Jos Thone you will see most of their winners are off a few key birds. 
Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Another way to increase the blood from a cock bird or for that matter a hen is to use pumpers. Switch eggs out from the good pair under a pair of pumpers. The good pair will soon produce another pair of eggs. Thus 4 offspring in a bit more time than it would to produce one. Do this for a few seasons with the offspring and you will soon have a colony with the blood of that cock. The third season you could breed him with a graddaughter and use pumpers again. Breed to his line. Three or four seasons you could fill a loft with his offspring. I am doing this with two lines of birds. If you can obtain syblings off of a line you like you can move much faster. The second year you can breed cousins then the third their offspring back to the foundation birds. All the birds I breed, this my third season, will be off of four foundation pairs. Two sisters and A brother and sister via Vic Miller birds, An Engels bird, A Ganus bird (Ikon, Magic Star), A Calia/Klak Janssen bird and an original Janssen bird. All my other six breeding pairs are related to one or more of these four pairs. I founded my loft on six pairs of birds. Two did not produce, they are my pumpers. I will test the lines this year and narrow it down to one best line. I am thinking I will then split the other two pair and cross them into the best line before I rid myself of them. I want to stay small so I am limiting myself to the 10 best producing pairs and keep two or three pairs of pumpers. My goal is to have every bird in the loft closely related to numerous winning birds, establish a winning line, and then cross key winning birds into this line for hybred vigor.
> For those who are purchasing Warrens birds, I would fly them and if they beat the pants off of your birds, take the best two or four and start you a new line of birds. Give your other flock to the guy down the street. My birds were the best birds in 6 local lofts that flew them this year. I think the reason is that I went to a few winning lofts and founded my loft from offspiring and sibblings of key futurity winning birds from sound families. I did not just take any birds from the first guy that would give them to me. I then crossed a few birds in to spice it up a bit.
> Read the article in the RPD, Jan 1, about how Art Hees moved to Florida and how he founded his new loft off of a few key birds. Warren is looking for his few best birds, by testing their offspirng. A very wise idea in my opinion. Also study Marcel Sangers strategy. He looked to the 05, James Bond and Wonderboys lines that he had narrowed down. He established his own line of birds. He then crossed quality established line such as Koopman birds into them. If you study the birds of Sangers and such fanciers as Jos Thone you will see most of their winners are off a few key birds.
> Randy


Randy,

You articulate this so well ! You are not only talking the talk, you are walking the walk. Did not realize we were so much on the same page, colony breeding wise. Perhaps we are working from some of the same notes ? 

I think one could also very easlily adapt another element into the switching of eggs you mention. Simply rotate in an additional hen which is otherwise kept isolated. This way some time is given for rest, while production is easily doubled. A point which Dan in previous posts may have pointed out, if you don't have a real super male, then you are simply going in the wrong direction, twice as fast.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think too many overlook the value of hens. Other than their egg limit, hens are as good as gold. Individual breeding pens makes it easier to rotate different hens. One of the guys who flew four of my birds had great luck with them. They regularly beat his best stock. I do respect that he is not breeding from them. He told me that they have to fly YB and two old bird seasons before they enter his breeding loft. No favoritism. This is a true test of the birds. I have developed my breeding philosopy from learning from and reading about the best. Ludo Claussens only keeps about 60 or so birds. If you study their pedigrees you will see how they breed. Selection is the key. Select the best birds you can afford and then select from the basket. Breed from the winners. 
Randy


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## Eriduardo (Aug 28, 2006)

learning said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am sure everyone is up to their armpits in future combine champions by now and I thought this might be a good time to pop this question out there.
> 
> ...



I have been using a method for this new breeding season to breed several hens to one cock. It's not that hard to follow. I found it a while ago, going through different pigeon websites looking for info.

The number of young obtainable from one 'stud sire' in one round depends on how many hens you plan on mating to that one cock. It can be 2 it can be 6, 10, 12, 16, etc. it just depends on how much time you're willing to spare for the process. I was able to successfully wean 9 young from from one cock in one round, on my first attempt. I mated 6 hens to one cock I should of gotten 12 but not all the eggs were fertil, 9 is a pretty good number though. All you need is two sections in the loft or two lofts to separate the males from the females. This process is easier when the cock is not mated, and it helps if the hens have all laid and reared young before. You will also need any kind of nest boxes where the hen can be isolated from the cock (widowhood nestboxes, work well)

Now here is where it might get confusing, on paper record the hens being used and also the mate (Original) or new mate as these are the cocks that are going to rear the young as their own, nest box #s, etc.. If you're only mating two hens to one cock this is not needed as the 'stud' cock will help both hens with the young but can be very stressing for him. So when selecting which cock goes to which hen make sure you are thinking ahead, as the 2nd round young will also be be half brother/sister to the first round young of each hen (different father). Unless you plan on doing the bull system for all rounds, then all young will be related.

The loft should be fitted with an aviary or section where the cocks can be locked out or separted when the time comes. I lock them out in the aviary but can also be transfered to another loft (more work). I place a drinker and pots of grit and minerals in the aviary. When pairings are figured out, introduce the cocks into the loft and let them pick out their own nest boxes or old how ever they choose just allow eanough time for them to settle in. Practice the locking out/separating a coulple of times to get them used to the idea.

When ready...

Day 1

Make sure hens are well fed and watered. Better if hens are introduced later in the day rather than earlier in the day. Feed and lock the cocks out in the aviary then place the hens in the locked half of the nest boxes according to which cock they are being mated to, to rear young. It's a good sign that things will go easy when the hens are very amourous and let you know they are ready to pair without a cock present. With the hens locked in their boxes allow the cocks into the loft. They fly up into their box perform their usual stuff trying to court the hen, but cock should not be able to thread hen. Leave birds like this until morning. 

Day 2

First thing make sure all hens are still locked and have not scaped the box. If they have it's not a problem at this stage but prevent that from happening again. Feed cocks and lock them out with their own drinker. Once locked out allow hens out to eat and drink. As each hen returns to the nest box (hopefully her own) lock her in. When all locked in allow the cocks in. At this point cocks should rush to their boxes spinning and cooing. Reapeat this once more during the day for the hens to stretch and eat&drink, you can also put little drinkers in the nest box if you wish.

Day 3 and Day 4

For these 2 days do the same as the Day 2.

Day 5

The day to introduce 'Stud' cock. The cock I used was a 9 yr. old. It can be paired alrady or sitting on eggs but you will get quicker results if he's un-paired.
Feed cocks and lock them out. Release hens to eat&drink etc. Lock all hens in their boxes. Bring stud and release him in loft he will strut his stuff and all hens will respond from nest boxes. Allow cock to roam around he will fly upto many of the hens introducing himself. All hens will respond to his attentions. After 10-15 minutes after the stud was introduced allow the hen from the first box out. In no time she will fly to the cock, as soon as the deed is done place the hen back in the nest box and lock her in and remove the cock into his own section let him rest for 30 minutes. Mark down on record sheet alongside the hens ring number that this occured and anything neccessary like date or what you think is important to you. After 30 mins. let the 2nd hen out and let the cock in the loft. This should now go faster chances are that all hens saw the first procedure and will be competing with each other. Rmove cock and lock up the hens. Do this for every hen every 30 minutes. I was able to mate all 6 hens in one day to the stud. Then give the cock a longer time to rest a couple of hours if you have more than 6 hens. Don't forget to mark down each hen in turn. If one refuses to mate make note as she will be the first one with the stud the next day. When all done lock all hens in their nest boxes and let the cocks in. The cocks are clueless as to what's going on.

Day 6

If all went well previous day, do the same but this time in reverse, the last hen to mate with the cock the privious day should be first now. If there were any rebels that did not want to mate they should be the first ones. Don't forget hens have to be well fed before you start.

Day 7

Exactly same as Day 6.

Day 8

Depending on the hens you could be getting eggs at this time. If not continue this (days necessary) until you start to see eggs. If so I suggest that you concetrate on the ones that have not. As I have noticed that once the hens have laid, they will have nothing more to do with the stud. According to where I got my info once the hen has laid 1st egg she will not let the cock thread her again, and that the theory of 2nd egg fertilization needed more looking at.

At this stage allow all cocks back in (no contact) just so that they can see that their hens have laid. As soon as a hen lays her 2nd egg, open the box and allow the cock to enter. Many of them rush in and instantly sit on the eggs, no matter what time of day it is. Once all hens have laid you can start to treat the loft with your everyday loft management. The cocks will have no problem believing the eggs are their own and will sit on them normally. Not all the eggs are fertil sometimes they are.

I ended up with 9 youngsters that ressemble one another in many ways. After the 1st round my original pairs i had planed mated for the 2nd round in normal fashion.


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## Eriduardo (Aug 28, 2006)

Hope this method is of any help to you.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Eriduardo,

Yes, thank you. These are some great ideas. It seems to be so hard to get any kind of solid logistical information on this subject. Of course all of this is for naught if you don't have the foundation stud cocks to start with. As Warren mentioned you could just as easily go backwards...twice as fast!

Dan


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

*Breeding homing pigeons*

I was wondering if anyone out there can answer a couple of questions for me.I'm going to start raising some pigeons and a fellow breeder gave me a few pairs of pigeons,I looked at the bands and two of the birds are 9yrs old are they to old to breed? Can I use plastic dog bowls for nest bowls


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## bhymer (Jan 8, 2008)

Try this video i'm just starting to research this subject don't know if I'll try or not....


http://vimeo.com/10123218


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Very cool video. Nice way to get a good number of eggs out of a cock bird without too much work. Wonder if it would work if you had say 5 or so hens in an open loft with one cock bird. If the hens would pair up but still mate with the cock. This way they would still sit the eggs until you could check if they were fertile. Wonder if you had say two pairs of hens and the other hen paired with the cock. Would he fertilize the other hens?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

The cock may or may not mate with the other 4 hens. If you mated the cock to each hen separately, and then let them all together, then the hens might become "pairs" and sit on the eggs. But then you'd be getting 4 eggs per pair (2 from each hen).


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## bhymer (Jan 8, 2008)

http://www.thepigeoncoop.ca/products/Polygamous-Breeding-System.html

Here is another way of polygamous breeding for smaller lofts...


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