# Advice please



## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

OK, here is the thing. While I was providing fresh food and water to my birds this morning I noticed two of my Nicobars sitting on the floor. My first thought was that they prefer the warmth of the hay but when I better looked one of them had the skin ripped of his scalp. The other one was intact but dead. I grabbed the first one and brought him into the house. I'm not sure if he is numb because of the pain or if he's in shock, probably both. I can tell that he is a bit aware of the surroundings as he grabbed my fingers while I was holding him and he also blinks very slow. So far I was able to apply some triple antibiotic ointment on the scalp and I also sprinkled some ampicillin powder. I tried to give him some warm water with a pinch a vita preen, probiotics and some Noni juice but he doesn't react. The problem is I'm all myself, my husband is out of town. I'm not even sure he would swallow a thing. I placed him in a fur doggy bed and I warmed up the house more than I usually do. Is there anything else I could do for this bird? I'd try to give him some water with a syringe but if he doesn't swallow?! I know, I need to pull myself together, it helps a lot just to write down the hole thing, I get to emotionally involved with these birds. Thanks in advance for any advise.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

SweetSpirit said:


> OK, here is the thing. While I was providing fresh food and water to my birds this morning I noticed two of my Nicobars sitting on the floor. My first thought was that they prefer the warmth of the hay but when I better looked one of them had the skin ripped of his scalp. The other one was intact but dead. I grabbed the first one and brought him into the house. I'm not sure if he is numb because of the pain or if he's in shock, probably both. I can tell that he is a bit aware of the surroundings as he grabbed my fingers while I was holding him and he also blinks very slow. So far I was able to apply some triple antibiotic ointment on the scalp and I also sprinkled some ampicillin powder. I tried to give him some warm water with a pinch a vita preen, probiotics and some Noni juice but he doesn't react. The problem is I'm all myself, my husband is out of town. I'm not even sure he would swallow a thing.
> 
> *I placed him in a fur doggy bed and I warmed up the house more than I usually do. Is there anything else I could do for this bird?*
> 
> I'd try to give him some water with a syringe but if he doesn't swallow?! I know, I need to pull myself together, it helps a lot just to write down the hole thing, I get to emotionally involved with these birds. Thanks in advance for any advise.


Hello SweetSpirit,
I'm so sorry to hear about your pijjies.

*Please* click on the link below & follow the steps. 

Basic life saving steps:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

Unfortunately, warming the house more than usual, placing the bird in a blanket, fur dog bed, etc., is not going to suffice for warmth. They must have a heat source provided, e.g., heating pad, hot water bottle, low wattage lamp, etc.

If you do place him on a heating pad, *please* use the *low setting*. Any higher setting may possibly warm them too quickly. *They must be warmed gradually. *

A visit to the vet may be in order, however it's vital he gets settled with some heat immediately. I would also offer him a bit of rehydrating solution.

Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Thanks Cindy, I did place a heating pad under the bad and I also placed a sponge soaked in water close to the bird so the crop ( which is empty anyway ) won't get dehydrated. I was afraid some predator got in but everything is intact. I got these four Nicobars not to long ago, they were supposed to be two true pairs. Yesterday morning while I was changing the water I noticed that three of the birds were chasing the fourth one, the smaller one, for the first time they didn't care I was in there. I wanted to call the breeder to have him explain this behavior but I was so overwhelmed by all the thing we have going on right now that I forgot about it. And one of the birds is dead now. They were all by themselves in a 8 x 10 x 9 flight so the space was not an issue, they live in flocks, the hen changes her mate after each clutch, what just happened here, one hen wanted both males? Or the second "hen" was actually one of the larger ones' off spring?! We have no avian vet in the area, I take care of my birds the best I can, when I need lab work done I mail the droppings out. Meanwhile the bird had some water and is definitely more alert. It looks like the warmth alone makes a little difference for now. I'll keep you posted.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

How do you attach pictures? I just took a picture of him but I just can't figure how to post it. Thanks.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

SweetSpirit said:


> How do you attach pictures? I just took a picture of him but I just can't figure how to post it. Thanks.


Click on reply, type your message, and then scroll down towards the bottom of the page. There will be a link for Manage Attachments .. click on that and follow the instructions for selecting and uploading your picture. Click on submit when you are finished.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And if that doesn't work for you then email them to one of us who will post them by one means or another if all else fails or you get tired of messing with it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure is strange, isn't it? I can see one pecked up and dead or half-dead but not one laying dead and the another pecked and half-dead with only two others about. You'd almost think that they'd had violent seizures and one crashed into something to cause the visible head injury if it weren't for the others chasing one earlier (if I got the story right).

I've had to suture head wounds up before and there's another post on here where a member had a rescue with a bad head wound that had to be dealt with. The faster you can get it closed if possible, the better for healing the wound. I'll go fetch some threads that deal with that and revise this post.

Here's one that shows a bad cut on the back of the head. This bird had gone a few days like this and that interferes with how the wound will heal. If you can clean the wound with Betadine within the first twelve hours and get it pulled together and stitched (with cotton thread if nothing else), it's A LOT better. Otherwise, it may take weeks and a lot of debriding to do:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12191

Of course, your bird may have skin that's pecked to hamburger. That's another story. I'll find one like that.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi SweetSpirit,


I had not heard of Nicobars before, so I did some fast googles...

Wow...quite unusual Pigeons!

I am so you have lost one and found another injured like this.

Their Diet of course would incluse various small Berries and INsects as well as Seeds.

A wet Sponge near them will not contribute to their Crop remaining hydrated...but of course drinking ( electrolyte, at this point) would.

You might consider feeding some order of formula directly into the Bird's Crop, once it has been adequately warmed up, hydrated and stabalized...or, unless you see some several poops so far from overnight or from this morning anyway, to suggest that they had been eating previously, recently...


The scalp injury...might be something that should be sutured, less the flap or seperated parts dessicate or become dead ends for circulation and would then have to re-grow...I dunno, but depending on how large or up tilting the flap of scalp is.

Did the Bird fly into something in the flight pen somehow do you think?

They can sometimes cut themselves in the head if conventional 
Chicken Wire is used...since the spaces in it are so large...

Are these Birds 'flighty' like so many Doves are?

Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Click on reply, type your message, and then scroll down towards the bottom of the page. There will be a link for Manage Attachments .. click on that and follow the instructions for selecting and uploading your picture. Click on submit when you are finished. Oh, I see. I have to replay to a certain post to get these options! Thanks again Terry and by the way, this group is so great, I'm so glad you recommended it. I can't wait to have some more spare time to absorb all the great info the members exchange. Here is the picture, I hope it'll work.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's an edited copy to bring out more detail. This will heal the fastest if you acquire a hydroactive dressing of the hydrocolloid dressing family. It's possible that some or many of the feathers will return but it's a bad one and hard to tell without seeing it up close and personal.

Obviously, there's no suturing to be done. It's a million single peck wounds. What will help the most will be to put the bird on a prophylactic antibiotic. I know you don't want to hear that but this isn't the kind of thing you play around with because there's too much exposed area for staphs and other common pathogens to get in. They can cause enough local infection to cause blindness due to the proximity to the eye if the eyes aren't already done in.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Go here and read this:

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html

Phil, why don't you look up the original post and pictures about Crow Baby and get a link on here. That's another version of this same thing. I can't remember the severity or the timing but it was almost this bad. I think Crow Baby pulled through without meds but I think this one's worse.

SweetSpirit, You have to understand that this is how some of us acquire new birds. We don't intend to raise them, we just rehab them and every time you think you've seen it all, some new and more horrible wound is brought in. A lot of folks raise birds for their racing abilities or show quality and all we care about is a bird in desperate need of help, no matter what the cosmetic or functional prognosis is likely to be. 

It would be helpful if you could answer a few questions directly: 1) Do you have Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula or an equivalent? 2) Do you know how to tube feed in case the bird will not eat or drink? 3) Do you have the stuff to do that? 

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

SweetSpirit,

In case you don't have any Kaytee (or an equivalent) or have never used any, these are possible sources in your area:

Belle's Pet Alley 
2605 South 1st Street 
Lake City, FL 32025 
386-755-8668 

Central States Enterprises 
668 Northwest Waldo Street 
Lake City, FL 32055 
386-755-7443 

Delta Farm Center 
211 Northwest Franklin Street 
Lake City, FL 32055 
386-752-3775 

It may also be possible to get large syringes (20 cc's or bigger) from these places. That's one of the ingredients for a tube feeding kit. The other is some heat-shrink tubing from the electrical department of a Lowe's, Home Depot or other hardware store. Specifically, you need the 1/8 inch size, about three to four inches long.

Now, don't know if you're going to need that but this bird could go into shock bad enough to not be willing to eat or drink. He might start eating and drinking on his own in thirty minutes but you never know. Sometimes it's just best to be prepared.

On the bright side, I think that the bulk of the skin is actually still there, only badly traumatized.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, SweetSpirit, 


Oh...I see now, okay...

Whew...yes...

I Had a two-week-old Pigeon last May who had been attacked by Crows, and they had pecked his head something terrible.

What I did ( and Pidgey's suggestion is probably better) was to keep the whole of it moistened with 'Neosporin' so that it could not dry out.

Over the next several days, all of the flesh on the upper area of his head died, and began to shrink and show cracks through which I could see his bare skull.

I continued to keep it all moistened with the Neosporin...

A large, irregular greyish 'Bottle Cap' scab formed of the dead tissue, and I did not interfere with it in any way. It remained adhered somehow to one tiny area and did not come off untill the entire regrowth of tissue from below and the sides, had become just about complete. At which point he got the large scab off on his own and where it's vestigual attatchment had been, showed a little slightly bloody spot where maybe some live tissue or circulation had remained shallowly.

Slowly, the whole healed from below and up, from the periphery, and in...and with him, luckily, all of this new tissue and skin was as pink and supple and perfect as if nothing had ever happenned.

He ramained featherless and 'bald' in this area for several months, then, out of nowhere, little incipient feathers began growing in, and shortly thereafter, he had as perfect a head of feathers as if nothing had ever happened.

Crow Baby had also sustained in the pecking from the Crows, the destruction of the Nares and Nostril area of his upper Beak. There is something of a girder or bridge to the Beak's intrinsic engineering, and this element of it's structure was lost...was pecked away in fact.

While he did learn to peck effectively, and fed himself for quite a few weeks, the form and shape and angle of his upper Beak kept changing, twisting to one side, then the other, then arching up and so on, and after a while e could not peck effectively so we began instead, to do 'Seed-Pops'.

In the beginining, his Beak looked so frail to me, I dared not attempt feeding him via catheter into is Crop for fear of breaking off the Beak entirely in the force needed to open it wde enough to insert a little tube into his Crop for feeding, so, instead, I merely dribbled thin formula into the side of his beak for the first few days.

I do not remember whether I had given him any systemic meds or not. I might not have...

His learning to peck within a few days, at least partially from the examples of some other young Birds or precocious Babys who spent time next to him being sociable...and this allowed him to have his sustanance of course, and by the time his Beak became so out of shape to where he could not get any Seeds anymore, our Seed-Pops were able to occur with ease because I could slip the Seeds in from the front and side in an easy way with no prying needed.

I hope yours does not have an injury to it's Nares area and 'bridge' which has damaged the structure there of the delicate Bones and growth bed for the Nares and for the Beak's stability...

I will post some links later today sometime showing some views of Crow Baby.


Till next...

I am so sorry your lovely Bird has been injured and pecked so terribly.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

That's nasty. The same thing happened to SkyWalker but just down the neck. I took him to the vet right away and he put him an bytril. He's all better now, so I put him in a cage outside in the sheld (he'll be there for the rest of the winter no doubt). 
One thing tho is do NOT put a cream on such a wound. My vet said that the cream gets under the skin causing it to get too hydrated which can cause more harm than good. I did use Betindine (I think that's how you spell it), it's an anti-bacterial liquid solution and it works A LOT better than the creams (doctor use it during sugries).
I hope everything goes well with this little one.
Good Luck!!
Hilary Dawn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Hilary, 


Would 'Neosporin' be regarded as a 'cream' in this context?

Or, what do you mean by 'creams'...?

Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Sure is strange, isn't it? I can see one pecked up and dead or half-dead but not one laying dead and the another pecked and half-dead with only two others about. You'd almost think that they'd had violent seizures and one crashed into something to cause the visible head injury if it weren't for the others chasing one earlier (if I got the story right).
> 
> 
> ********If the breeder got the sexing right, the smaller male killed one hen and injured this one. Yes, the small male? is alive with only a few feathers missing from the top of his head. I clearly saw yesterday morning all three birds picking and chasing the smaller guy around so he must have gotten pretty mad about it proving once again that the size does not matter. I find very interesting for the two hens to get attracted to same male and to be OK about it. I haven't heard from the breeder yet, I'm very anxious to hear his opinion.
> ...


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi SweetSpirit,
> 
> 
> I had not heard of Nicobars before, so I did some fast googles...
> ...


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

This will heal the fastest if you acquire a hydroactive dressing of the hydrocolloid dressing family. 

******That's something I've never heard of. I'll google it. 

It's possible that some or many of the feathers will return but it's a bad one and hard to tell without seeing it up close and personal.

********I' think they'll grow back. I can see the follicles, it was not ripped to the bone.

Obviously, there's no suturing to be done. It's a million single peck wounds. What will help the most will be to put the bird on a prophylactic antibiotic.

********I'll constantly apply some ampicillin powder to the area but the wound is already drying. Yes I'd love to stay away from antibiotics as much as possible but I'm also a reasonable person and I will if I'll have to. So far she feels a LOT better.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Sweet Spirit, You have to understand that this is how some of us acquire new birds. We don't intend to raise them, we just rehab them and every time you think you've seen it all, some new and more horrible wound is brought in. A lot of folks raise birds for their racing abilities or show quality and all we care about is a bird in desperate need of help, no matter what the cosmetic or functional prognosis is likely to be. 

********That's just beautiful!!!! 

It would be helpful if you could answer a few questions directly: 1) Do you have Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula or an equivalent? 2) Do you know how to tube feed in case the bird will not eat or drink? 3) Do you have the stuff to do that? 

********If there's something I'm good at that's handfeeding. And yes I have aaaall it takes but it might not be necessary. I wouldn't want to mess with her head either. I really appreciate all your help!


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

It may also be possible to get large syringes (20 cc's or bigger) from these places. 

*******It's been so nice of you to do this search for me. The down side about living in the country is that you are limited in so many ways but one big advantage is the multitude of farm supplies. My favorite places to spend time and money. Since there's only one small mall in the area  


On the bright side, I think that the bulk of the skin is actually still there, only badly traumatized.

*******Yes it's there. And I hope she'll be eating by herself soon. I'll let you know how she does. Thanks a lot.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

*********As you can better see in the close up picture there's no skin left, it was all pulled off.[/QUOTE]

I meant that there's nothing to suture.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi SweetSpirit, 


I was thinking of Wild Morning Doves as being 'flighty'...

And, even the Baby ones I raised, who were all entirely calm and happy Babys, comfortable to be held and so on, along with some Baby Pigeons I raised along with them, because I had some adult Morning Doves in here convelescing and free-flying, the Adult Wild Doves taught every youngster to be just as WILD as them! 

Eeeeeeesh!

This IS good for everyone's Life 'later' in the feral and wild Worlds, but sure playes hell in here, where, I can not even s-l-o-w-l-y go to the sink to rinse out a Coffee Cup, without explosions of Wings happenning through out the room...!


Lol...

Anyway...I forget sometimes, anymore, that tame Doves do exist! And they will likely encourage such in those youngsters comeing along behind them...

But the wild ones...nope!

The last of my Autum orphan Pigeon Babys, 'Tater' who had somehow been fed a two inch dessicated french fry which thankfully, he threw up, who grew up around these Wild Doves, acts just like them now and I can not get anywhere near him, even though I raised him for quite a bit of his latter squeakerhood...and for quite a while he was totally at ease and friendly and sociable...

Those wild modes of being do get imparted from the Adults to the juveniles, even when the juveniles are of another species sometimes.

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Oh...I see now, okay...

Whew...yes...

******Oh Phil, I really appreciate you letting me know your experience. One always can learn and this is definitely a very interesting approach. I had two previous similar experiences but not as bad as yours with the Crow Baby. In the first one, one white RN which became my favorite after all, got bitten by a squirrel. Interestingly enough, the squirrel was sleeping in the same basket with my other two doves. I had only three doves at time, my first ones. I knew nothing, and I mean nothing about birds. I went to the vet in the morning ( back in Ft. Lauderdale ) he took the bird in the back, brought it back and gave me an over $100 bill. He said he glued the wounds. She recovered very well though. The second similar victim was my first Australian Crested hen. I purchased two other breeding pairs and she's had some territorial issues with the newcomers. I knew the things needed to be straightened up but I got trapped packing, it was right before moving over here and the inevitable occurred. When I saw her she was all puffed up, in no better condition than my Nicobar hen. But it was summer and I saw her drinking some, her mate was next to her all the time and I decided to let her be instead of stressing her out some more. She recovered very well all by herself. And Piuta, my RN dove healed after all. The difference with the Nicobar hen is, I think she's spent the night cold and wounded, she did not respond much when I've found her. 


He remained featherless and 'bald' in this area for several months, then, out of nowhere, little incipient feathers began growing in, and shortly thereafter, he had as perfect a head of feathers as if nothing had ever happened.

*********Unbelievable! You hear this type of happy ending stories and sometimes out of almost nothing......Life can be so unpredictable. 

Thanks again Phil for sharing your story. Quite a journey!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Here are some links to images representing various phases of Crow Baby's recovery and healing and other sidelights of his life during that time...

http://community.webshots.com/album/338863400WrcFEE


http://community.webshots.com/album/358621324GOdVmQ


http://community.webshots.com/album/371618971COPqEq


http://community.webshots.com/album/447607654jfTUoH


http://community.webshots.com/album/457741615tdssUF

Some of these have captions which one can read if one clicks to enlarge the otherwise small images...but the caption will be to the right, under the image number, rather than below the image.


Best wishes for your Bird..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,
Neosporn, polysporin, etc. are creams I was talking about. I think your best way to go is to go with the betidine (brown liquid). It worked wonders on SkyWalker and the animals at the shelter. 
SS~ I was getting a good look at the picture you had posted and is the skin around the eye pulled off too??
I probrably wont be on for the rest of the night even tho it's only 8:15 (exuasted form work today!! )
Night all and good luck.
Hilary Dawn


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Just a quick update before I'll finally go to sleep after a pretty chaotic day. The bird has improved a lot so far with only ampicillin powder directly on the scalp. The eyes are affected too, especially the left one which she keeps closed, the right one she can open half way. The scalp is all dry now, no more bleeding and she eat some by herself. I didn't feed her at all, she makes lots of droppings so I assume she has eaten more than I actually saw. I'd have so many things to tell you, these birds are definitely the weirdest I've ever seen but I'm dropped dead, I've found out last night that we finally have a deal for the house back south, the buyer wants to close on the 10th which is extremely convenient for us. We'll just have to make sure the house will be as perfect as possible for the inspection. My father in law will come here tomorrow morning to take care of the birds while I'll be gone which makes me very nervous, especially because of this bird. Last night around 2 am I figured that the one that died might have been to cold, we had 34 F so I went outside and brought the other two in even though they were not exposed to the wind. The fight might be just a coincidence, I'll tell you more when I'll get back. Thanks a lot to all of you, it's been very nice to share with you. God bless!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

SweetSpirit said:


> *It looks like the warmth alone makes a little difference for now*. I'll keep you posted.


Hello SweetSpirit,
Many thanks for the wonderful update.  
I am so glad your little patient is doing better. They are incredible beings. 

I can't stress enough the importance of heat. In many cases it can literally mean the difference between life & death for a pigeon or dove. 
Other than giving a quick exam of an ill or injured bird, heat is the next most important. However, it must be given gradually. *Low* setting heating pad, *low* wattage lamp overhead, etc. Once the body temperature has gradually been regained, it only needs to be maintained & the low heat should suffice for this. 

You are doing a wonderful job. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate right now & a very busy schedule. When time permits we would love to hear a update. 

Cindy


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Hello everyone,
I got home last night, my bird has healed nicely but it looks to me that she's going light now. She's had a pretty thick crust over one eye which came off when I touched it. The eye was inflamed but the good news is she can see. I washed it with pink eye relief eye drops and I applied some antibacterial veterinary ophthalmic ointment. It already looks much better but she's no longer eating. I'm not sure for how long it's been going on, my father in law told me he also didn't add any supplements to her drinking water. All I can tell is she didn't touch the water and the food I supplied her with last night. I just gave her nystatin thinking that the bad bacteria has developed in the crop and I handfed her 11 cc of exact formula ( which I know is very little for her body weight, about 400-500 g) to which I added multivitamins, noni juice and probiotics. I will feed her again every hour or so, is there anything else I could do for her? Thanks in advance.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

I tried to fed her again but I was barely able to give her 3 extra cc. It looks like she gained some energy from the previous feeding and is fighting back every time I touch her bill with the syringe. This is my first going light case and from what I've read the stomach and intestine walls are usually thickly lined with bacteria which is vital for the digestive processes. Once the barrier weakens then it is less effective and harmful bacteria can gain a hold on the stomach wall, am I correct? Which will make the bird feel unwell and lose its appetite. They say the treatment is a supha drug. (?!) Is Nystatin a sulpha drug? If not, is it going to do the job? Or should I try something else? She doesn't even want to drink, she's already lost a lot of weight, am I about to loose her? I'm all by myself, I have to hold her with one hand and feed her with the other which I can manage somehow but she acts like I want to poison her or like she really hates the taste. My main concern right now is to get rid of whatever bacteria developed in her stomach so she could regain her appetite. I would really appreciate if someone could tell me if Nystatin will do the job or what else I could use. Thank you so much.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Nystatin is an anti-fungal drug often used to treat candidiasis. It is not a sulfa based drug. Bactrim (sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim) would probably be a better choice of drug for the symptoms you are describing. Better yet would be to get the bird to an avian vet for a definitive diagnosis and treatment plan.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi SweetSpirit,


I agree with Terry for this...

If you can get them a thorough exam by a good Avian Vet...bring the last few hours of still moist poops, say a tablespoon full or so with you, for the Vet to do a fecal analysis as well as a physical exam of the Bird...that would be best.

Otherwise let's see here...

The Bird was eating on it's own, but now is not interested in eating on it's own? Normaly favored Seeds and so on are not enticeing to them now...so, you are having to feed them manually, is that correct?

Can you determine if they have lost weight, their weight now verses their weight previously?

How have the poops been looking lately, before they lost their appetite?

Have they been continuously kept warm?

What meds have they been on? And or aside form the topical applicartions to their head...?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Bactrim (sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim) would probably be a better choice of drug for the symptoms you are describing. 
Terry[/QUOTE]

Thanks Terry, I have trimethoprim on hand but not the bactrim. Do you think the trimethoprim alone will do the job?


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi SweetSpirit,
> 
> 
> I agree with Terry for this...
> ...


Phil, the only bird that is not eating is the injured one. She wasn't able to see the food very well when I left but I know she slowly eat. Besides she drank lots of water every time I gave her some. It's been 7 days today since I left, I'm not sure since she stopped eating, it's been the typical going light process I believe. Yes, she was kept warm in a crate all this time and she got no meds at all.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

SweetSpirit said:


> Bactrim (sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim) would probably be a better choice of drug for the symptoms you are describing.
> Terry


Thanks Terry, I have trimethoprim on hand but not the bactrim. Do you think the trimethoprim alone will do the job?[/QUOTE]

I also have sulfadimethoxine sodium anhydrous on hand. Could that replace the bactrim?


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

If so, could you help me work the right dossage? Each 5g contains 400mg Trimethoprim. The other one; each 100g contains 25g sulfadimethoxine sodium anhydrous.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

The drug containing sulfadimethoxine sodium anhydrous is the MEDICOX, Medpet brand used to treat and prevent Coccidiosis, whatever that is. I got quite a few drugs the first time my birds tested positive for E.coli to have on hand just in case.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

I just took a picture of her, you can see how nicely she's healing, the eye looks pretty good also, I just have to start her eating now.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Oh, here is the picture.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

I had to reduce the size of it.


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## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

Wow! what an improvement  looking much better now!


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Mistifire said:


> Wow! what an improvement  looking much better now!


Thanks Mistifire  She's one of my favorites now. Soon as I got them I decided the breed is not working for me, I even found somebody to sell them to but now I'm hooked and determined to make these birds happy, God willing


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

This is a great improvement!! 
I noticed with Sky Walker also that he healed very quickly. 
Hilary Dawn


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

SweetSpirit said:


> If so, could you help me work the right dossage? Each 5g contains 400mg Trimethoprim. The other one; each 100g contains 25g sulfadimethoxine sodium anhydrous.


OK .. here's a start .. The label from my Bactrim bottle states:

Each 5 ml contains 200 mg Sulfamethoxazole and 40 mg Trimethoprim. The dosage for birds from the Yale formulary is:

_Trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazole (*dosed on sulfa concentration*)

Bird 100 mg/kg BW PO bid (Burke, 1986)
25 mg/kg BW PO q12h (Ritchie and Harrison, 1997)
50 mg/kg BW PO sid (Ritchie and Harrison, 1997) _

This is what Helen/Nooti had to say:

_TRIMETHOPRIM/SULPHONAMIDES (Septrin, Bactrim, Co-trim, Tribrissen, 
Septra, Sulphatrim)
Dose - 30 mg per kilo. BID 7 days
Effective against most anaerobic bacteria and therefore suitable for 
gut bacterial infections and coccdial overburdens. The very best of 
this family of drugs is Trimethoprim Sulphamethoxazole- (Septrin) 
which effects a cure in 99.9% of cases if caught early. Can be used 
in conjunction with penicillins. 
It is ineffective in the presence of necrotic tissue. _

I'd go with Helen's 30 mg/kg every 12 hours. 

Now to try and figure out how to use what you've got ..

Back in a few.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

OK .. on the trimeth that you have, please confirm that it is 400 mg in each 5 grams of weight of the product.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just looked at Medicox .. the entire container weighing 100 grams contains only 25 mg of the drug. We now need to know how much your bird weighs .. we might be able to come up with enough medicine to get started, but there won't be more than a dose or two in what you have with the Medicox.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Gotta Leave For A Bit ..*

Please, other members who are comfortable in figuring out how to use the meds available and deriving the correct doses, please jump right in. I have a small family emergency that needs dealing with right now.

Terry


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Just looked at Medicox .. the entire container weighing 100 grams contains only 25 mg of the drug. We now need to know how much your bird weighs .. we might be able to come up with enough medicine to get started, but there won't be more than a dose or two in what you have with the Medicox.
> 
> Terry


I'm so sorry for the loss of your bird  We all know about heaven and hell but the Bible doesn't mention anything about animals or so I thought until a few days ago. I'll have to get back tomorrow regarding this issue, I need to look something first.

The Medicox contains 25g not mg. I just read Helen's article again (if we speak about the same Helen) She says "With a strength of - 40mg trimethropim and 200 mg sulphamethoxazole per 5mls - which any vet will understand, the dose will be 0.1ml per 100gms bodyweight twice a day for 5 days" 

I'm not sure if mls are actual ml . I didn't expect you to get back to me tonight so I tried to work the dose myself as 40mg trimeth. and 200mg medicox in 5ml water. The bird is about 500g so I gave her .5cc What do you think? If you're still there


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

SweetSpirit said:


> I'm not sure if mls are actual ml . I didn't expect you to get back to me tonight so I tried to work the dose myself as 40mg trimeth. and 200mg medicox in 5ml water. The bird is about 500g so I gave her .5cc What do you think? If you're still there


Sorry about misreading the label on the Medicox! Your approach is correct and assuming you got the right amount of the drugs into the solution, you've got it! 

Here's a quick take on the calculations .. somebody, please double check this: To obtain 200 mg sulfamethoxazole from your Medicox would be by weight of the powder 125 mg and for the trimeth by weight would be .5 mg. 

Sure hope your bird responds to this treatment.

Terry


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Sorry about misreading the label on the Medicox! Your approach is correct and assuming you got the right amount of the drugs into the solution, you've got it!
> 
> Here's a quick take on the calculations .. somebody, please double check this: To obtain 200 mg sulfamethoxazole from your Medicox would be by weight of the powder 125 mg and for the trimeth by weight would be .5 mg.
> 
> ...


Thank you Terry. I'm pretty sure I got the amounts right, they come with a 4g measuring scoop and I just divided a scoop in I can't remember how many parts to get the right amount. She's feeling well, I feel nothing in her crop but she shows no signs of weakness, she actually has more energy than yesterday. I'll let you know in a few days how she does. Thanks again to all of you.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's good, Sweet Spirit. I hope the bird will be just fine!

Terry


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> That's good, Sweet Spirit. I hope the bird will be just fine!
> 
> Terry


Thanks Terry, I hope she is, at least she behaves like she's improving. I had to remove the crust from her head as you can see in the attached picture. She's been able to scratch off the sides but the rest was like a tight shell on her entire head from the bill to the neck and I don't think it would have fallen off by itself. That being said, when one is dealing with such a large affected area it is best to constantly keep the area moistened with an antibiotic ointment as Phil suggested. I didn't have any troubles to gently pull the crust off, I moistened it first with warm chamomile tea and let me tell ya, she's SUCH A BRAVE girl! The entire area is healed, the red you see in the picture is a thin layer of the moistened crust which came off by rubbing it with ointment. Thanks again, I'm looking forward to pick the E.coli thread soon.


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