# My fancy baby pigeon all of a sudden can't walk



## bradygirl

Please help me...My fancy Baby pigeon all of a sudden can't walk.. like it broke its legs or something. It is a month old, and has been fine up until today. I do not know if something happened or what...This one is especially sweet and I don't want anything to be permanently wrong with it...what should I do...It seems like it can't move at all...Please help me....
Thanks
Bonnie


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## Reti

Hi Bonnie,
sorry your baby is not well.
Please let us know, is the baby alert, is he trying to stand up? Or is he just sitting/laying down?
Any other symptoms? Is he eating on his own already?
What enclosure is he living in and is he by himself?
Have you examined his legs for any breaks?

A picture of the baby and the legs would be very helpful.

Reti


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## Pidgey

That might be a calcium deficiency issue for which liquid calcium is often the best. I gotta' admit that I've never had to use that stuff and don't even know where to get it. Is that a health food store item?

Pidgey


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## george simon

*Liquid Calcium*

Jedds carries 4 or 5 different liquid calcium products, I would think that the kind you can get in the drug store is ok, just make sure that you don"t give the bird a people size dose.Good luck we all hope and pray for the best. .GEORGE


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## Skyeking

bradygirl said:


> Please help me...My fancy Baby pigeon all of a sudden can't walk.. like it broke its legs or something. It is a month old, and has been fine up until today. I do not know if something happened or what...This one is especially sweet and I don't want anything to be permanently wrong with it...what should I do...It seems like it can't move at all...Please help me....
> Thanks
> Bonnie


Sorry to hear about your baby.

What is he eating, are you providing any supplements?

Make sure to give the youngster access to a good calcium rich pigeon grit too.


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## Larry_Cologne

*Baby pigeon can't walk*

Hello Bonnie, 

Does it try to walk?

Does it try to get anywhere at all? Does it try to use its beak like a "cane" to pull itself somewhere?

If you pick the young pigeon up, cupped in your hands, with its legs dangling, and let the feet touch the ground, do they seem to respond to touching the ground? Or do the feet seem lifeless, no nerve response, paralyzed? 

Larry


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## bradygirl

*my hurt pigeon*

Thanks to all that have replyed....

he was fine till yesterday, but we did notice something weird, I would see the parents stand on its back every once in awhile...which I thought was odd.
the other baby seems fine, ans they both used to walk around together....
yes it is trying to move itself with its beak...other than that he can eat if i put it in front of him...he seems fine otherwise...cleans his feathers ect....
please help me...we love him so much.....
Thanks 
Bonnie


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## bradygirl

i didn't see a break it just seems like there is something maybe wrong with his back ...he is in with his parents and sibling...i actually give them alot of freedom..they live in my house as pets...they fly out and sit on the floor ect...this like just happened...suddenly.....but i have been noticing the parents will stand on his back every once in awhile.......is this normal?
we love him so much...please help me


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## bradygirl

*I do think something is wrong with his right leg or side*

he tries not to put his right leg down, and kind of favors his right wing also...maybe he hurt himself landing, because they are not the greatest at it yet....i don't have alot of monet to spend right now so i don't want to have to take it to the vets if i don't need to....but i want him to be ok, so i will do what i need to


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## Pidgey

They're pretty tough and if he's in the house and doesn't get up any significant speed or height, it's unlikely that he hurt himself that bad. Unlikely, not impossible. In any case, I think that the calcium is cheap enough. You may even have calcium tablets there. Birds also need vitamin D3 to help with calcium absorption and use. They usually get that from sunlight (full--no glass in between) and a complex process. 

However, if everything's hunky-dory with the rest of the family, there might be something else going on. This might seem like a stupid question but humor me--is it the bird's right side as the bird sees it or your right as you're facing the bird? There are some things that can get them that would require medications. Where basically do you live, in case we've got a member or a favored vet in your area?

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne

*Baby pigeon can't use legs, but uses beak in attempting to move*

Hello Bonnie,

In 1984 I rescued two small baby pigeons left on the sidewalk in a large flowerpot. They were between five and ten days old, and at the time i thought they were ten days old. I went on the internet and found this website. (They were less than 50 grams or two ounces in weight). At first they used their beaks and wings to pull themselves around, but they were still very young.

In August 2005 I rescued our male Wieteke from where he had fallen or been pushed out of the nest on the support embankment of a railroad bridge. He was 18 days old, give or take a day, and weighed 263 grams, or less than ten ounces. His normal adult weight is now 300-330 grams.

He had no use of his legs. They just flopped around, dangling beneath him. I figured he had paratyphoid, or salmonellosis, and treated him with cotrim (SMZ-TMP SulfaMethoxaZole TriMethoPrim) Active Ingredients: Sulfamethoxazole and Trimethoprim. 
Representative Names: Bactrim, Bactrim DS, Bethaprim, Co-trimoxazole, Cotrim, Cotrim DS, Septra, Septra DS, Sulfatrim). According to symptoms he may also have had ParaMyxoVirus. I pulverized a tablet which I had on hand (I usee it myself) and treated him for five days. He can now use both legs, but he cannot raise his left foot for grasping. If he were to be wearing a wristwatch on his leg like a human wears on on his arm, you could say that he walks with his left foot turned under, and the face of the wristwatch hits the ground. If he lifts his left foot, he can grasp with it. In spite of cold weather and him walking on it in the cold, his left foot appears identical to the right, even in amount of wear on the claws and the amount of callus or thickness and color of footpads. He does usually hold his left foot up, and has a bit of a lopsided build.

I would prefer that Pidgey or one of the many regular experts make such a diagnosis for you, however. They have oodles more experience in diagnosing, treating, and prognosing. Why not go with the best when you can? 

(Also due to my lack of time right now to give this the attention it deserves). 

How much does he weigh in grams? (Do you have an inexpensive kitchen digital scale?) 

Larry 

*Aahhh .... I see that Pidgey, the ever reliable Pidgey, has been here while I was composing my post. Thanks, Pidgey. *


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## Whitefeather

bradygirl said:


> *he was fine till yesterday, but we did notice something weird, I would see the parents stand on its back every once in awhile...which I thought was odd.*the other baby seems fine, ans they both used to walk around together....
> yes it is trying to move itself with its beak...other than that he can eat if i put it in front of him...he seems fine otherwise...cleans his feathers ect....
> please help me...we love him so much.....
> Thanks
> Bonnie


Hi Bonnie,
I'm sorry to hear about the little one.

The fact the parents are 'standing' on the baby's back sounds odd to me as well.  
I would suggest removing him from the family, for the time being at least, so you can:
1) observe him better &
2) eliminate further problems by the parent standing on his back. 

Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## bradygirl

I brought him to work with me today to keep an eye on him...He is sitting here on the desk next to me..he seems Quite content to eat ...he is really trying to not use his right side especially...he will flap his wings to get up a little and try to move that way or use his beak. he is taking a nap right now..I will stop tonight to get some supplements for him but have no idea how or how much to give him. Like I said we really love him alot and want him to be ok...This is he 2nd set of babies that the parents have had. it is sad because the first 2.one of them never made it out of the egg, and the other had splay leg so severe that he had to be put down.. So you can imagine that i am really worried about these 2.. the other one seems to be just fine, so that makes me questions the supplement thing, but anything is worth a try. if he hurt his leg..will it heal or does it need to be fixed...how long should I wait?
Thanks
Bonnie
P.S> You all are great...and I really appreciate your help


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## bradygirl

I would like to send you a pic, it is not of him now because you really can't tell by looking at him, but you can at least see what he looks like..can you tell me how to send one...


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Bonnie, 

You can attach a picture with your posts, but it has to be under 100kb in size. When you post, there is a button underneath the post window that says, "manage attachments". Click this, browse your computer to your picture file, click "OK", then "attach", then submit your message.


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## bradygirl

It is on his right side...or the left when looking at him...
I live in BelAir Maryland a little north of Baltimore MD


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## Pidgey

Can you tell us a little more about the ones that "died in the eggs"? Was there no discernible reasons why the would have like having gotten too cold or something like that? The reason I'm asking is because there are diseases that they can get through "vertical transmission" (parent to baby, even before hatching) like Paratyphoid. It can present this way.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl

I tried but my pics are all too big....but I can tell you that are Old Fashioned Frill Satinette Pigeons.. and they are very pretty...I have no idea what sex the young ones are...


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## Pigeonpal2002

bradygirl said:


> I tried but my pics are all too big....but I can tell you that are Old Fashioned Frill Satinette Pigeons.. and they are very pretty...I have no idea what sex the young ones are...


Hi Bonnie, 

You can also upload your pictures to an online hosting site. www.webshots.com or www.photobucket.com are easy ones. Then just provide the link to your photo album or photos.


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## bradygirl

I think that the baby just didn't get out of the egg in time..it was cracked alot, but it wasn't untill it was too late that I helped it out. I was afraid to fool with it because I was always told that they need to do it themselves..but then the breeder that we got them from said sometimes you have to help them....it was to late, and it died before it got all the way out. it was alive and moving ect. The other one was about 1 month old when we had to put it down...It was very hard for me... this was the first experience we had with little ones,..1st because we didn't even know what sex the adults were for sure..They were very young when we got them, and mated after we had them for only a month...they stay in our house, as indoor pets. i don't think they got cold, because they were very protective of them always sitting on them. is that bad...


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## Maggie-NC

bradygirl;177551 also...maybe he hurt himself landing said:


> How far did he fall when he tried to fly? He may have bruised his legs when this happened. I honestly don't thing the parent standing on his back would have caused this.
> 
> If his legs are bruised he may simply be sore and just needs to stay still in his nest. Be careful letting them out anywhere that they may fall. If you can, let him walk around on a rug or towel on the floor. You really have to watch them all the time.


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## bradygirl

I didn't actually see him fall, but I have watched them fly off our sofa on to the floor, and they don't seem to have the complete knack of the landing gear yet...they usually just sit on our carpet and walk around and go to sleep...it might be sore...itried to see if it looked physically broken, but it doesn't. I feel really sorry for him..he is sitting here next to me..and when he wants to move he flaps his wings so that it lifts him up a little.


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## Maggie-NC

I'm still hoping he is just a little sore from "sailing" off your couch. For a little baby that is still pretty high to fall from. Try not to worry too much but if you do let them out again just keep them on the floor. Also, make sure that his nest has a cloth in it (not terrycloth or anything his nails can hang on) so he doesn't develop splay legs.

Us mothers do worry!


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## bradygirl

How long should I wait before taking him to the vets? Can they actually fix his leg if broken?


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## Skyeking

bradygirl said:


> How long should I wait before taking him to the vets? Can they actually fix his leg if broken?


I would take this baby to the vet asap if you suspect a broken leg, yes they can set a broken leg, but you can't wait or it will mend incorrectly.
Please keep the baby confined so he can't hurt it further.

how long has it been since the parents had a fecal and physical?


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## bradygirl

I am trying but the using his beak to help him moves looks really horrible .. I feel really bad for him , and I don't want it to be anything permanent. If I wait to take him to the vets how long will I have before they can't help him, just in case is something minor?


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## bradygirl

I wanted to tell you that My pigeon looks exactly like yours named spike...they are almost identical.....I am thinking of seeing if it is any better by tommorrow, and if not taking him to the bird vet here...i just don't want it to get worse...


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## Maggie-NC

If you suspect a broken leg you must get him to a vet ASAP. If you don't, the leg will mend on its own in the broken position probably causing him to be unable to walk properly. We have had many pigeons with broken legs that had splints put on and they heal within weeks and are just fine.


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## Pidgey

It's possible to set a broken leg with masking tape if you knew that's what it was. I've had a couple with broken legs and I don't remember seeing them move with their beaks. I kept food and water in front of them and they didn't need to. It can be pretty difficult to tell if a leg is broken, though. If it's floppy and moves directions that it shouldn't, it's simple but sometimes that's not the case. You hate treating for a broken leg if it's something else, though. Did you call around or just go to the drugstore and get some liquid calcium?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Here's a link that you can study the skeleton and the bones of the leg:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

And here's a link to a previous thread about broken legs with an illustation for splinting techniques:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13878

A bird with a freshly broken leg usually has a strong tendency not to move around, though, at least in the ones that I've had. They usually like to stay in one place for the better part of a week before they start standing up on one leg and moving about. Wild birds don't have that luxury, of course, and I've seen several of them in my wild flock just end up healing after a few weeks.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl

I have looked at the leg a couple of times, and it doesn't necessarily look broke but he is favoring it and his right wing. I am going to go out and look for the liquid tonight...The pet store that was awesome for all that stuff here just closed yesterday...so I have to look somewhere else. Do you know what strength and dose I should give...I am willing to try almost anything...If he doesn't seem any better tommorrow I am going to take him to the vet and have him looked at. I am also going to put him in a cage by himself so that they don't make whatever is wrong with him worse. Let me know about the strength and dose.. Thanks so much for all help everyone....


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## Pidgey

Sometimes the dose depends on what formulation you get. You'll need to post what that is and then somebody will get back with you pretty quick.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Are the parents still feeding him? If so, you may want to reconsider removing him from them.


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## Lucifer

Hello Brady Girl. 
Sounds like something I just recently experienced with a pair of Brunner Pouters. First I'd like to say that the parents jumping on the baby are trying to mate with the bird. It is a natural response to jump on a bird that appears to be laying down for the jumper. It happened with the birds I am about to talk about with you.
The first set of eggs this pair laid. One fertile, one not. The baby hatched and grew up to about one month old. Died for no apparent reason. I wrote it off as inexperienced parents. The next round. Same thing. One fertile one not. This baby grew to about five weeks old. I was working (taming/training) with this bird. Holding him and taking him outside and so on. One day after having him outside and bringing him in, I put this bird back in his cage and the bird went to instant crippled! Just going from my hand to the cage he was flopping around and couldn't walk any more. One leg seemed to work fine but the other kept getting in his way and tripping him up. I hoped this would correct itself and waited for about three weeks. It just got worst. He basically flopped around the coop to survive. I put the poor little guy down. Felt bad for him.
My wife suggested I split the parent birds up that there may be something genetically wrong with one or both of the parents. Being a man and stubborn, I didn't think she was right. I thought it was just a fluke. I let them breed again.
Two babies this time! Good deal. All is well for ten days. It got very cold here and the babies almost froze to death. Feeding the birds I noticed one so cold it was almost dead. I brought them in and hand raised them. At six weeks of age I was cleaning cages and coops. I moved the two young out to let them fly while I cleaned. When finished I picked them up, put them in their cage and boom. Out of nowhere, one of the young crippled up AGAIN! Well I have been through this once already so I did what I knew I had to do. Didn't want to watch the suffering again. It's nest mate is doing fine SO FAR but I worry every day.
Needless to say, I split this pair up. Genetically, I believe now they were not meant to be.
I know how you feel. Vets are VERY expensive and we all can't afford the financial burden. I raised this last one myself! Imagine how I felt to put it down!
My point is. I've been there and others I have talked to say when a pigeon cripples like that, they never come out of it. Mind you these are a long legged breed I'm talking about. Your situation may be different. BUT, you have a choice to make. To me, these birds were suffering.
I wish you the best of luck and I hope I helped you even just a little.


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## bradygirl

I took him to the vet today, and they said that he doesn't have broken legs it is something wrong with his back. The vet said he could have hurt it landing, or the parents could have hurt it laying on him..They give him an anti-inflammatory shot and said that it seems to have hurt the nerves..hopefully temporarily...It last for 3 weeks and he said hopefully he will feel better and be able to heal within that time...if not it will probably be permanent.. Everyone cross their fingers and pray for little Brady....He was so sweet and brave getting his shot. Thank you all so much for all of your help..I will keep you informed on his progress...


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## Lovebirds

Good luck with this little one. I haven't contributed to the thread, cause, frankly, I have no idea what is going on with this poor baby. Just want to say thanks for taking such good care of him. Hope it all works out.


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## Pidgey

If I were to add anything to Lucifer's post, I'd feel like I was playing The Devil's Advocate...  

Of course, I usually give it a medical try. One thing's for sure, though--you might want to hold the bird's wings and help him walk, just like you'd do with a baby. Sometimes the brain and body respond more to making the effort to conquer the problem than to anything else. If the mind gives up on the function, it might never return, and that's what a lot of rehab and physical therapy is all about.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

> One leg seemed to work fine but the other kept getting in his way and tripping him up.


One of my pigeons had her leg amputated. They adapt very quickly to hopping. She perches with no trouble, has a mate and lays eggs. The only thing that she can't do is incubate the eggs because they get broken.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, a question - Is it a good idea to try to help him walk right now or let him rest and let the (what I hope is) bruising heal?

I imagine Brady got a steroid shot.

Bradygirl, I'm pulling for little Brady and hope he improves tremendously in the next few days.


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## Skyeking

Hi bradygirl,

Thank you for taking the baby to the vet. I DO so hope that the bird will respond to the anti-inflammatory treatment. Please keep us posted, and I will say a little prayer for him.


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## Pidgey

Lady Tarheel said:


> Pidgey, a question - Is it a good idea to try to help him walk right now or let him rest and let the (what I hope is) bruising heal?


Have you noticed recently the trend towards getting surgery patients up and at 'em el pronto? Hip surgery, knee surgery... it's a take-anti-inflammatories-if-you-have-to-but-get-up-off-your-hiney world now. Statistics have proven that you're better off to resume function as fast as possible for stuff like that. I expect that the numbers came from all those folks that they COULDN'T keep down.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Thanks Pidgey - makes sense.


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## bradygirl

Well, After the shot on Friday Brady seemed to be doing better....but over the weekend he seems to have gotten worse...now his legs seem to be in front of him, and he can't seem to use them right at all..When he does try to move because they seem to be messed up it makes him move backwards or in circles. I feel really bad for him.. He gets really frustrated I can tell. I love him so much, but I don't want him to suffer. Do you think there is any chance that he could come out of this....Please give me some insight...


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## bradygirl

I have also noticed that All of a sudden today..Brady doesn't want to eat ot drink and is breathing alot heavier than normal....he just seems completely exhausted.. I am very worried


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## Guest

This is sounding more and more like this is a sickness inducing weakness. First his legs gave out and now he's weak and struggling to breathe. There are a lot of illnesses that can do this. Can you get Brady to a vet? Do you have any antibiotics at home? You are going to have to hand feed him to keep his strength up.


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## Pidgey

Not really a typical presentation, is it? We'd probably have to shoot blind and hope that a Baytril/Metronidazole combo would get it. Bradygirl did mention not having much money to spend so it's going to be one of those deals where we have to beg, borrow or steal (not really) from somebody local and in record time. Bradygirl, where are you located so we can see if there's somebody close with supplies for this kind of thing.

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds

It is on his right side...or the left when looking at him...
I live in BelAir Maryland a little north of Baltimore MD

Pidgey, there are lots of pigeon fanciers in her area. Maybe she could contact one of them to see if they have any of these meds on hand?


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## Guest

Pidgey,
I hear you about no vet so the next best thing is to go shotgun; antibiotic, canker drug, wormer and cocci drug. To try and reduce the possibility of yeast, use a probiotic. Not everyone who owns pigeons has these drugs and it only goes to show how important it is to keep them available at all times.


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## Lovebirds

I have sent Bonnie a PM. I can send her a ton of names/numbers of pigeon fanciers in Baltimore. If she's willing to go get them, I would bet she can find someone who will help her out with some meds. Hopefully, I'll hear from her soon.


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## Guest

She's going to have to act quickly. Her Brady is rapidly going downhill. By the time a bird shows symptoms, it's already acute.


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## Lovebirds

pigeonperson said:


> She's going to have to act quickly. Her Brady is rapidly going downhill. By the time a bird shows symptoms, it's already acute.



I actually found one fancier that is in Bel Air. Whether he would have the meds or not is another question. I just sent her his name/number by PM. Hopefully she will come on line soon. 

So is the Baytril what she needs to ask for specifically or something else?


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## bradygirl

when I took him to the vets on friday...the vet said the he thought he was in very good health, but probably could have broken his back or vertebrae. it made sense since the back half of him doesn't seem to want to go straight. But now that he is getting worse I don't know what to believe...I do not know how to hand feed, I have never done that before...how do I do it. I am really worried that he is past the point. His legs are really like unuasable..It is really sad. I am at work with him, and only have his seed and grit..How would I feed him????? Would an illness make his legs messed up?? would the meds make them better..I don't want him to suffer...He really just seems totally exhausted..I can run to the walmart and get stuff , but I don't have to ability to go any where else because of work....He tries to eat , but just can't seem to pick it up too well.
Please help
Bonnie


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## Pidgey

Baytril and an anti-canker, at the least. If it's Baytril, it needs to be given at the dosage of 15 milligrams per kilogram of bird, orally, twice a day. Shooting from the hip, I'd guess a 300 gram bird so about 4.5 milligrams of pure medicine, twice a day. How much depends on which Baytril you get--that's something that we need feedback on.

On the Metronidazole, it'd be 10-30 mg/kg, PO, BID. And, again, it's a "which one do you have?" deal. Might not be Metronidazole, might be Ronidazole. So, it's just one of those things where we have to know what they can get their hands physically on.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

As to feeding, you can hand feed them and put seeds down him the hard way if he's trying to eat. That means you open his beak and put stuff in.

It sounds like he's suffering from something but whether it's a genetic thing or, for instance, the neurological presentation of, say, a Paratyphoid, there's not a lot of way to know. You can treat with a very broad-spectrum antibiotic like Baytril and hope that the bird responds to therapy, or just gets better, take your pick.

I have had a bird get something that sounds very much like what you're talking about. It eventually got over it but was left with some neurological problems that it eventually began to get over. There's probably not a vet who can magically look at this one with X-Ray vision and tell you for sure what it is or answer your questions definitively. It just doesn't work that way, sad to say. That's why we sometimes have to shoot blind and hope for the best.

Pidgey


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## Reti

It doesn't sound good what this baby has.
Are you keeping her/him warm and well hydrated. That is more important than food right now, but yes, you have to feed too, s/he can need all the energy he can get to fight this.
My Angel had something similar that lasted for a couple of months and all the tests we ran didn't show anything. The conclusion was from the vet that she had something viral.
Still, like Pidgey mentioned, hopefully some Baytril will help.

Reti


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## Guest

We're kind of back to square one. An X-Ray of the spine would show a break if Brady has one so the vet is guessing like we are. How does a vet not take an X-Ray and then guess that it may be a break? And if it's not a break but another kind of injury that's affecting the nerves leading to the legs, how does a vet not give a corticosteroid shot? I'll bow out of this one because it's just not clear enough about what's going on.


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## Whitefeather

pigeonperson said:


> We're kind of back to square one. An X-Ray of the spine would show a break if Brady has one so the vet is guessing like we are. How does a vet not take an X-Ray and then guess that it may be a break?
> * *And if it's not a break but another kind of injury that's affecting the nerves leading to the legs, how does a vet not give a corticosteroid shot?* I'll bow out of this one because it's just not clear enough about what's going on.


* In post 37 Bonnie stated the bird did get an anti-inflammatory shot. I'm guessing Dexamethasone.

* * * *

"_*I took him to the vet today*, and they said that he doesn't have broken legs it is something wrong with his back. The vet said he could have hurt it landing, or the parents could have hurt it laying on him..*They give him an anti-inflammatory shot* and said that it seems to have hurt the nerves.._"

Cindy


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## Skyeking

Have you given the bird any supplemental calcium?


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## Guest

Cindy,
I totally missed post 37. I do things like that. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## Whitefeather

pigeonperson said:


> Cindy,
> I totally missed post 37. I do things like that. Thanks for pointing it out.


No problem.  

Cindy


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## bradygirl

I tried to call some of the names that were given to me yesterday..with no luck...I will try the rest today....He really is not any better at all and now his head seems to want to flinch to the right side... that is new...
he tries to eat, but then his head moves or his legs flich and he just can't..I am trying to force him to drink, because now it seems like he has diarrhea..that smells really bad. I am going to try to order some meds off the internet, but I guess I need to order pills or something because since he is not drinking i figure I need to be able to force it...


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## bradygirl

also did your baby bird recover.......??????I feel so bad he all of a sudden will just start flapping his wings uncontrolably..it is really sad..will the meds help with something like this??? and like I said sometimes his head turn to the right ..


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## Pidgey

I suppose that the thing that it sounds most like is the neurological presentation of Paratyphoid. If you get him on Baytril in time, he might recover with no lasting effects. Call your vet and demand Orbax pills, or Baytril liquid with a 0.3 cc syringe (but you'll take a larger one if you have to--we'll work with it--and try to get at least 2 Flagyl 250 milligram pills.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

That bird that I told you about didn't come back all the way. He was left with a tendency to put one foot out kinda' hard in front of him. He finally learned to walk but it was difficult for him. He was one of the closest birds to us and would sleep by the bed. It was his left side that was so affected.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Again, the medicines and dosages are:

Baytril (or another Fluoroquinolone like Ciprofloxacin or Orbax):
15 mg/kg, PO, BID 
(that's 15 milligrams per kilogram of bird, orally, twice a day--if the bird weighs 1/2 kilogram then it's half the 15 milligrams; if the bird is 1/3 kilogram, then it's one third of the 15 milligrams)

AND,

Metronidazole (Flagyl; or another anti-canker like Ronidazole--dose might be different):
10-30 mg/kg, PO, BID

Pidgey


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## bradygirl

I tried to get in touch with the vets office...They said now he might want to do an xray....I really don't have the money to pay for that,and an office visit, and the meds....I guess it would be easier to just get it from one of the pigeon supply companies.. I just need to make sure that I can give it without putting it in water since he isn't really drinking alot except what i try to make him..


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## Whitefeather

Hi Bonnie,
There have been several comments about, & suggestion of, giving him calcium. Unless I missed it, I don't recall seeing where you have mentioned anything about it.

Calcium can be purchased at any local store, it's inexpensive & certainly worth giving it a try.  

Cindy


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## Pidgey

You've got an increasing neurological symptom affecting the area above the suspected trauma, lack of appetite, foul-smelling diarrhea... those doesn't typically come from a broken or sprained lower back or leg. You might remind them of that. 

If you're going to order some meds online then you better get to it because it's just classic that birds like this pass away before the drugs arrive. That's harsh, I know, but if it's what it's beginning to look like, you might have more to deal with in the future and you're going to need the supplies. Foy's has a product called "Enroxil" that you can get in various strengths. It's the generic equivalent of Baytril. A 100 milliliter bottle costs $30 plus shipping and handling. I haven't check on their anti-canker products. Do you need help finding their site and navigating it?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Foy's Pigeon Supplies Paratyphoid page:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/para_sal/index.html

Foy's Pigeon Supplies Canker page:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/canker/index.html

The 10% Enroxil is probably the best deal and the FishZole probably has the most for the money on the anti-canker. There are actually better anti-cankers but Metronidazole has a few extra uses.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl

I did buy some vitamins with calcium, but you have to add it to water, and he isn't drinking it..I don't know if the little bit that I am able to force him would have any benefit..I think that I might have brought it with me..So I can try to give him some.....


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## Guest

It's important to point out that if a bird is going to go onto any of the tetracyclines or Baytril, calcium can't be given. It binds with the drugs making them very ineffective. 
Calcium is being recommended because the legs gave out and by and large, that can be a good route to go but why did the legs collapse? Is it infection or injury? That's what was so confusing but now that there is an odor to the droppings, it's probably all due to infection. 
Bradygirl, there has been too much time wasted. Can you get Brady to a vet and insist on either a Doxycycline or Baytril injection? I know you said you don't have the money for an X-Ray. If you wait for the drugs to come in the mail, it may be too late. I don't think you have any choice other than getting Brady onto antibiotics by your vet. The shot lasts for one week so that would give you time to get the antibiotic through the mail in time to administer doses 7 days after the injection. Antibiotics given orally are usually administered every 12 hours. If you want, you could ask for expedited shipping although that adds a lot to the cost.
Do you have the funds for also getting a gram stain done to test for yeast? Malodorous droppings can come from bacterial or yeast.


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## Whitefeather

bradygirl said:


> *I did buy some vitamins with calcium, but you have to add it to water, and he isn't drinking it..
> I don't know if the little bit that I am able to force him would have any benefit*..I think that I might have brought it with me..So I can try to give him some.....


Hi Bonnie,
At this point, any amount of fliuds you are able to get into him will be of benefit.  

A slow, but safe method of getting fluids into him, if you aren't comfortable tubing him, is to use an eye dropper. Place a couple drops at a time of the liquid along side his beak. It will drizzle down his throat. *Don't squirt* any fluids directly down his throat.

Cindy


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## bradygirl

I talked to the vet and he seems to think that it is a mute point, and probably needs to be put down...I told him I was going to think about it and bring him over later....I can tell him to give the meds, But truthfully I respect all of you.. what are the odds that he will be able to function if he recovers from this...It is horrible watching him all of a sudden start flailing around, or make an attempt to eat but not be able to because he falls face forwrd into it... I love him so much..I have been crying all day...I don't want him to suffer if he is going to live, but still be unable to walk ect... his one leg is so far out in front of him I wonder how that would ever get fixed.... I don't want to put him to sleep if I don't have to, but I also don't want him to have to live like this.... I have been giving him drinks of water and feeding him some seeds...I had someone else tell me that it could be PMV....and that it could take weeks fro him to recover if at all...what are your thoughts..I am supposed to take him over around 5pm EST..so I really need to think this thru alot....any thoughts or feelings from the heart would really be greatly appreciated. I am really new to having birds, but I can tell you the pain of watching him like this is like my own child being sick...


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## Pidgey

Sounds like the bird I was talking about. The longer he goes without the meds, the worse the brain damage gets. The worse the brain damage gets, the more function he won't recover. Is there anyway to know how far it's gone and how much he'd get back? There isn't a person on this earth that can answer that question. We can only say that the longer it goes, the worse it gets.

Pidgey


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## Guest

I can only talk to you from my viewpoint and it may not be the same viewpoint that others have but here goes:

I don't believe in putting a bird to sleep unless there is no question that the suffering will continue unabated. If there is any chance that he can recover, I'll grab it.

Your bird is probably ill from a bacterial infection and if that's true, nothing has been done to stop it. His legs collapsed and infection will do that. If the legs collapsed, how else is he going to move unless he flaps his wings in an attempt to get up? That's not PMV. It's struggling. He's dehydrated and nothing is being done to get fluids down him.

It may be too late to start Brady on antibiotics but if there is any chance that he could recover, I would get him an injection of Tetracycline or Baytril from the vet, order the drug over the web or bring Brady back for another shot in 7 days. Your vet can rehydrate Brady with an injection of electrolytes. You can feed wet dog food by hand so he doesn't have to burn up his body fat and weaken him even further.

Your vet does not know birds. Gram stains should have immediately been done for bacteria and yeast and then given an injection of antibiotics while the tests were being processed. He should have taken blood for a white cell count. Instead, he guessed at a broken spine and gave a corticosteroid shot based on that guess instead of doing the right tests.

This thread became very confusing because the symptoms were not described accurately and that's because you were confused. You were confused because your vet was confused and you were getting all kinds of suggestions without getting a correct diagnosis from the vet.

Get Brady over for a shot of antibiotics and rehydration. It may be too late for Brady but if there is any chance, take it.


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## Pidgey

Incidentally, corticosteroid shots are immuno-suppressive. I don't know if that applies to all of them, but if that's the case with this one, giving it during a bacterial infection would have been the wrong and last thing to do because it'll prevent the bird from being able to fight the infection to some degree.

Also, if it's Paratyphoid (and, trust me, you're not going to know, nor will the vet easily or in a timely manner be able to determine it), the best medication will be the Baytril (or Cipro) and while it can be given as a shot, it cannot be given for a week at a time like a Tetracycline. It also can cause pretty bad necrosis at the site when given IM (IntraMuscular) so it's usually better to give orally.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Pidgey,
This is probably not the thread to talk about it but I think and I may be wrong, Baytril comes in an injectible form that doesn't cause necrosis at the site. I'll try and contact my vet to find out.


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## Guest

Pidgey,

I just emailed my vet with the following:

"Can you help me by answering one question? It used to be that Baytril given by injection, would cause necrosis at the site. Is that still true or is there an injectible form now?"

No guarantee he will respond but if he does, I'll post the answer.


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## Pidgey

Part of my answer was a snapshot comment made by way of looking in my biggest formulary and not seeing any "q7d" or equivalent notes in any Enrofloxacin protocol. That notation would mean that it's to be given by shot every 7 days like you see with the Tetracyclines. It wouldn't surprise me if they had developed an injectible time-release formula but I don't have any physical evidence in my hand that they have.

The reference to injection-site necrosis comes from pictures of that out of the 1994 book. Maybe they've gotten that better, too, don't know. Just falling back on what I remember.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather

bradygirl said:


> I am supposed to take him over around 5pm EST..so I really need to think this thru alot....*any thoughts or feelings from the heart would really be greatly appreciated.* I am really new to having birds, but I can tell you the pain of watching him like this is like my own child being sick...


Hi Bonnie,
Unfortunately, at some point in time, most of us have had to make an agnozing decisions about our birds. I am so sorry you are going through this.

My two cents worth:
None of of us ever have all the answers. 

The thought that comes from my heart is: Go with what *your heart* says.
Bless you & your sweet baby. 

Cindy


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## Skyeking

bradygirl said:


> I talked to the vet and he seems to think that it is a mute point, and probably needs to be put down...I told him I was going to think about it and bring him over later....I can tell him to give the meds, But truthfully I respect all of you.. what are the odds that he will be able to function if he recovers from this...It is horrible watching him all of a sudden start flailing around, or make an attempt to eat but not be able to because he falls face forwrd into it... I love him so much..I have been crying all day...I don't want him to suffer if he is going to live, but still be unable to walk ect... his one leg is so far out in front of him I wonder how that would ever get fixed.... I don't want to put him to sleep if I don't have to, but I also don't want him to have to live like this.... I have been giving him drinks of water and feeding him some seeds...I had someone else tell me that it could be PMV....and that it could take weeks fro him to recover if at all...what are your thoughts..I am supposed to take him over around 5pm EST..so I really need to think this thru alot....any thoughts or feelings from the heart would really be greatly appreciated. I am really new to having birds, but I can tell you the pain of watching him like this is like my own child being sick...



bradygirl,

I'm so sorry your bird is not doing so well, and I can imagine how overwhelming all this must be for you, and so hard for the bird. 

Please don't let all the information overwhelm you and cause you to be confused. 

You need to have an accurate diagnosis and that is sometiimes very hard to get with a vet, as they don't get too many pigeons. 

Please listen to those of us here that HAVE had extensive experience with pigeons and can help you to make the right decision, although based on your description of symptoms, they are doing their best.

Only you can make the decision to euthanize, but follow your heart and your own mind, not what the vet wants you to do.


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## Guest

Pidgey,
I'm not sure either so hopefully this can be answered by my vet.


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## bradygirl

I Swear It Must Be Some Sort Of A Sign...i Was Cleaning Him Up Because He Moves Around In His Own Droppings, And While I Was Cleaning Him He Looked Into My Eyes....it Was Really Strange....i Put Him Bach On My Desk Next To Me And All Of A Sudden He Acted Like He Was Feeling Alot Better....he Started Eating Like He Hadn't Eaten For A Week... He Was Drinking Off A Spoon...i Can't Believe It..my Husband Thinks I Am Crazy..i Was Crying Before About Putting Him Down, Now I Am Crying Because He Is Eating....i Am Going To Get The Vet To Give Him Some Sort Of Shot When I Go Over, And Not The Kind To Put Him To Sleep. I Will Give It My Best Shot Since He Is Trying Just As Hard....i Am Sooo Proud Of Him....still Worried About All The Other Things I Said Before, But He Is Looking Alot More Spunky Then He Has For The Last 2 Days..


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## Guest

Here's hoping.


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## Pidgey

If they don't give Baytril in an extended release shot, then take the oral meds they offer. That may be Orbafloxacin pills, it might be Ciprofloxacin caplets that you'll have to crush up or it might be (and this is the most practical) what's known as the "large animal" liquid Baytril (Enrofloxacin) that comes as a 10% solution. The dose for that for this bird of that last formulation will be in the 50 microliters range (that's 0.05 of a cc at a whack, or 1/2 of 1/10th of a cc) at a whack, twice a day.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl

I took him to the vet and he got A shot of Baytril...The vet said that if he showed any signs of improvement, to bring him back in on thursday for another one.....He still seems to think there is a spinal injury, but was ok giving him the shot just in case. If I give him the vitamins with calcium that i have here...will that do until I can order special ones?


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## Pidgey

I think I'd hold off on the vitamins for a couple of days and see how he progresses. But, sure, you can give him what you've got when the time comes. You have to understand that your other birds are eating what they're eating without showing any of the same symptoms and that's relevant here.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl

I thought about that too, but the other bird still get suppliments from the parents..even now...plus he started eating by himself later than this one....Maybe because he started eating by himself earlier he didn't get enough to begin with...? One of the other people I talk to reccommended that I give him some milk in the mean time...He said it would give him diarrhea...which he already has....what do you think??


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## Pidgey

There's something in milk which they can't digest. People have given yoghurt (plain) for that and other reasons. But, when you're giving Baytril, you're supposed to just abstain from giving them grit or any other excess calcium.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Bradygirl,
Nobody who knows anything about birds will suggest giving milk. They can't digest it and it causes diarrhea. Diarrhea causes dehydration. Dehydration is what you are trying to avoid because all birds that are ill, suffer from it. Dehydration doesn't mean thirsty. It is when all the cells in the body don't have enough fluid to function properly. 
Please don't give any calcium because it binds with Baytril reducing its ability to get into the body and do its job.


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## bradygirl

how long should I wait to give the calcium....I am going to try to get some at the pharmacy, its hard to find around here..
The vet said that I could give him another Baytril shot Tomorrow...does that mean that its not as long acting...I don't want to mess up his meds, but I want to cover all my bases as much as possible...he still has smelly diarrhea..I have to keep cleaning him off.


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## Pidgey

Tell you what on the calcium--wait until somebody here who's been working with you says that it's okay to start giving it again.

You didn't ask the vet to give you the info on how much Baytril he gave him and how long it was going to last, didja'? Well, get that information and post it back here. Also, inquire about getting some liquid Baytril to give him (and a syringe, hopefully a 0.3 ml size, and get his weight in grams, willya'?)--the injectible stuff that he's been given works down the gullet as well.

These kinds of problems usually take days to turn around.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl

I will rty to get the info today..I am supposed to take him back for another shot today.... I am not sure what to do..How long should I give the meds to work?? How long can I wait to give him the Calcium before it is useless and won't work? I have been trying to find liquid calcium around here, and I can't find any..not even at the pet store. They have it at the pharmacy--but they are like vanilla, or blueberry flavored--not just plain, and I am not sure wether that would be ok for him or not... I am not sure wether the vet will sell me the baytril for me to give him...So I might have to get it online.... I was thinking regarding the Calcium...This baby started eating on his own before the other baby..I wonder if he didn't eat enough of the important stuff that helped with developement...Thats why I am starting to wonder about the calcium...Should I continue with the Baytril???


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## Guest

Bradygirl,

I'm sorry to have to use caps. I'm not yelling but trying to catch your attention because you don't seem to be reading our posts:

DO NOT GIVE CALCIUM WHILE THE BIRD IS ON BAYTRIL. IT BINDS WITH THE DRUG AND REDUCES ITS EFFECTIVENESS.

Keep up with the Baytril. The drug doesn't begin to work before 3-4 days. It takes that long to raise it to the level in the bloodstream for it to work. After that, it has to be maintained at that level for it to continue its job.


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## Larry_Cologne

*Calcium binding with antibiotic*

Bradygirl,

It is important to not mix certain meds and certain minerals together.

I'll give you an example of an antibiotic binding with calcium.

In the early 1960s one of my sisters, nine years younger than me, was given the antibiotic tetracycline for a lung infection. She still had, or was losing her baby teeth. At any rate, when her adult teeth grew out, they were dark brown and black in color. The tetracycline had bound with the calcium being used to form the teeth.

I had a lot of brothers and sisters, and we didn't have much money to spare for dentists. When she was sixteen, my parents found they could have her teeth capped with plastic crowns in Mexico for a good price, around $200-$500. She had a beautiful smile, with straight, white teeth.

A couple of years later or so, the gums began to recede from the plastic teeth, and my parents had to spend $200 per tooth to have them re-capped with porcelain.

Larry


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## bradygirl

Hi..Thanks for the post...I wasn't going to give them at the same time..but I was wondering how long to treat with the baytril and not see improvement before I try something else...I am going to get him another shot today and ask about getting some to take home....If not I am going to ordersome off the internet..If it is working ..what kind of improvement will I be looking for...He is eating fine.....actually alot......But because of the wing flapping i can't leave water next to him..so I constantly offer him water from a spoon.

He sleeps alot here on my desk, and I have to cover him up a with a little towel to help him not spasm so much...I am just trying to keep the cost to a minimum because I just don't have alot to spare.

I promise that I won't give any calcium to him, but I do have 3 other birds, one of which is his sibling that I am thinking may need it, so if you can tell me where I can get some it would be great.....

Thanks
Bonnie


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## bradygirl

I too Brady to get the other shot of Baytril...The Vet said that this is all he should need.....He also gave me some nutra vitamins to crush up and try to gets in to eat in a few days....His poop is not really like diarrhea anymore, which is good....i can't say that i have noticed any difference in his legs, except that they seem to be moving around more....
I am still hoping...


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## Whitefeather

Thanks for the update Bonnie.
Sending positive thoughts.  

Cindy


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## Reti

He's hanging in there and that is a good signs.
Why doesn't the vet give you oral treatment of baytril to give at home?

Reti


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## bradygirl

He said that he doesn't need anymore, I did ask about it? He is not lloking good at all now..he was looking better, but has gone downhill... he is really not eating...he drinks a little bit. He also feels like he has lost weight. He is slo starting to breath heavier and sometimes thru his mouth open a little bit... I have a feeling that i am going to have to put him to sleep tomorrow..I am thinking that he is actually stating to suffer, and I Love him so much that I don't want that. Even my daughter is saying that it is so sad.....
He is the sweetest bird ever, so I have to do whats right for him....I will see how the night goes....and let you all know


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## Pidgey

Does sound bad. Typically, we like for vets to adequately diagnose and treat sick birds and it would be nice if that was the way it worked without fail. We do generally advise that people take their birds to avian vets. In retrospect, it's the ideal but it fairly often isn't practical due to the familiarity of a given vet with pigeons, or, more to the point, the lack of same.

Did you notice that he seemed to be getting better after the first shot and now he's getting worse? Injectible Baytril isn't a long dose kind of medication--that is, the course of the medication needs to be kept up for days, often for two weeks. You typically wouldn't give a pigeon the injectible and actually inject it for that entire time because the muscle necrosis would be so bad they wouldn't have breast muscles left after the two weeks of medication. So, they usually will only inject the medication for the first day or two and then shift to oral Baytril for the rest of the course.

If your vet only gave the injectible for the first two days and that was it, it almost had to be because he was giving the medication to placate you and he didn't believe that it was going to do any real good. It probably would have if he'd given you the stuff to continue the course for the normal duration. So, here we are at this point.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Pidgey,
I think so too. If it had been Doxy, the shot lasts for a week and there would have been three given. We might have seen better results.


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## Pidgey

And still possibly could if someone would strongarm the vet into doing it right or finding a different vet that was more attentive. The last thing I want is a vet telling me that it'd be better to put the bird down and then doing a totally half-***ed job of treating it to make sure that it prolongs the suffering.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

bradygirl,

I'm so sorry for all your bird and you have had to go thru. I can imagine how you feel.

If I were you I would try to locate someone who has an extended knowledge of pigeons, a rehabber or pigeon fancier, if you cannot locate one then follow your own instincts. 

My instincts would tell me to get the bird to my rehabber and off of all the medications at this point if there has been no TRUE diagnosis made, and treat with natural/healing herbs and nutrition. I would put this bird in intensive care, and moniter poops, feeding -and start it on garlic, alfalfa, probiotics, ACV, Echinacea, Reishi, Neem oil, colloidal silver, and even start the bird on a mild detox. I would start slowly and spread out all the goodies thru-out the day.

These vets can be so intimidating, because of their years of schooling and their attitudes, but most know next to nothing about pigeon care, unless they actually own pigeons themselves.

Once they have gone with treatment as far as they want to go, and do not want to spend any more time on your bird, they always opt out with euthanasia.

I am glad to have a rehabber in my area to steer me clear, and I have had to learn alot on my own and am glad of it.


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## bradygirl

I am very sad to say the Brady died yesterday...I am really sad , because I swear he had the soul of an angel..He was the sweetest bird I have ever known...I am glad that he is not suffering anymore...Thank you all for all your thoughts and prayers...
Bonnie


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## Reti

I am so very sorry, Bonnie.
I am sure he knew how loved he was and how much you cared and tried to make him feel better.
He just didn't want to suffer anymore.

Reti


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## jazaroo

Bonnie, I am also very sorry for your loss. I just wanted to say thank you as well, for the kindness, love and comfort that you provided Brady with.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC

Bonnie, I too am so sorry Brady died. You worked so hard to save him and I know you'll miss him.


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## Skyeking

Bonnie,

I am terribly sorry to hear the sad news. I know you did everything in your power to help Brady.

Please except my sincerest condolensces and thoughts of comfort during this very sad time.


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## TAWhatley

Bonnie, I am so very sorry for the loss of little Brady. 

Terry


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## bradygirl

Thank all of you for all your thoughts...It has been very hard..I miss him sitting here with me. I hold his sibling..and its just not the same...he doesn't have that sweet look..Brady was just one of a kind, and you could like look at him and see his soul...His parents have laid more eggs so I will have the opportunity to maybe find another sweet one....Thanks again for all your help....I tried everything, but I could tell that he just wasn't going to be able to pull thru.....I am sure that he appreciated all your thoughts and prayers...
Bonnie


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