# Hi everyone - New here with a problem



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I recently found this site while trying to find some info for one of my sick birds. I hope you can help me.
I have 47 homers, tumblers and fantails. Noticed one of my homers (5 months old) gone light 11 days ago. No visible symtoms other than very thin and fluffed up (still up on perch). Did not come down to eat. Took her into work with me to start a treatment. Small rock hard dark stool in carrier.
Tube fed her "exact" and started her on metronidozole. No lesions in mouth, no head tilting. Just "hunched up". After her first feeding, she had liquid green diarrhea. Continued this treatment for 5 days - no change. No worse, no better. A little more alert. Picking at food but not eating it. Added albon on the 6th day. Was advised by an avian vet to stop albon and start on SMZ (sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprim) on the 9th day. Still giving metro and tube feeding 3 times a day. This is day 11 and no change as far as eating. Will not eat or drink on her own. Stools are dark green soft/loose formed. Alert off and on and preens herself off and on. Out of the 11 days, vomited her feed maybe 4 times. Other than that she just sits there and looks around. I just pulled another 5 month old hen from the same loft. Same symtoms (basicly none other than thin) except 2nd one is drinking water only. Started her on same treatment. After her first tube feeding she vomited some of it back up. Can anybody tell me whats going on? Help!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Msfreebird said:


> I recently found this site while trying to find some info for one of my sick birds. I hope you can help me.
> 
> I have 47 homers, tumblers and fantails. *Noticed one of my homers (5 months old) gone light 11 days ago. *
> 
> ...


I am sorry to hear a couple of your pijjies appear to be a bit under the weather.  

While you are waiting for further input, I would suggest offering supplement heat to both (placing them on a towel lined heating pad, set on low or under a low wattage lamp). I'm assuming you have each isolated from the others & each other.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to replace plain water with a little rehydrating solution (to a cup of room temperature water, add a *pinch *each of salt & sugar). 

Other than advising to stop the albon & start the SMZ, what suggestion did the avian vet have as to what might be going on?

Cindy


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

It could be a lot of different things. You don't have an avian vet who can see her? I've had some cases like this that didn't respond to the meds I had on hand and my vet had to give them newer generation drugs I'd never heard of.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sorry you're experiencing these problems.

Aside from pulling them from your loft and putting them both on heating pads, I would stop the sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprim (Bactrim) and go for a stronger antibiotic like Baytril. I usually start with Bactrim but if that is not showing any results will switch to Baytril. I also give Nystatin at the same time to combat any yeast infection.

Could you describe their loft or aviary setting - type of flooring, etc. That may give us some clue to what is going on.

Are they showing any signs of a respiratory problem - open mouth breathing?

Your best bet right now is get a poop sample analyzed. Sometimes worms can cause them to throw up and lose weight. Coccidiosis can do the same but you've already treated them with Albon.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I am sorry to hear a couple of your pijjies appear to be a bit under the weather.
> 
> While you are waiting for further input, I would suggest offering supplement heat to both (placing them on a towel lined heating pad, set on low or under a low wattage lamp). I'm assuming you have each isolated from the others & each other.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Both are isolated from others and brought inside. Not "fluffed up" now just "hunched". #1 is not drinking (or eating) at all on her own. Haven't seen #2 drink today yet. Both just standing there. Preen a little off and on. The vet that I called does mostly exotics. Didn't have a clue as to what might be going on because of lack of symptoms. Thought maybe circovirus (but not sure because of lacking symtoms). Told me to keep doing what I was doing (supportive care) and the 2 meds for possible secondary bacteria infection. I'm sooo confused


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Sorry you're experiencing these problems.
> 
> Aside from pulling them from your loft and putting them both on heating pads, I would stop the sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprim (Bactrim) and go for a stronger antibiotic like Baytril. I usually start with Bactrim but if that is not showing any results will switch to Baytril. I also give Nystatin at the same time to combat any yeast infection.
> 
> ...


My lofts are "gazebo" type open in the summer (wired), closed up in the winter (open right now) wood floor w/whitepine/cedar mixed shavings. 
No respiratory symptons. Did float for parasites - negative, smear for bacteria-rods seen only. No good aviary vet around here.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

If fecal was negative for parasites then I think your best bet right now is to go with Baytril and Nystatin.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> If fecal was negative for parasites then I think your best bet right now is to go with Baytril and Nystatin.


Not familiar with NYSTATIN, what is it and where do I get it? I feel bad - she's hung on for 11 days, I'm assuming thats a good sign?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A lot of long rods? Sure would be nice to do a Gram stain on them. If they're Gram- rods, you don't want to see a lot of those. Usually, a few days of KayTee will restore the right balance of bacteria in the stools. I've had to carry some birds on KayTee for a month or more when they've been really bad. You can probably discontinue the Metronidazole if you haven't already. I concur on switching to the Baytril. In older hens, you can sometimes see oviduct infections that will not respond very quickly at all, and often not to Baytril, but that shouldn't be the case here.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nystatin is a drug that prevents fungi from growing, like Candida. It's a drug that doesn't go systemic--it stays in the gut (travels through with the food, anyhow) and only works there. You can get it as a powder called "Medistatin" from a few of the pigeon supply houses.

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> A lot of long rods? Sure would be nice to do a Gram stain on them. If they're Gram- rods, you don't want to see a lot of those. Usually, a few days of KayTee will restore the right balance of bacteria in the stools. I've had to carry some birds on KayTee for a month or more when they've been really bad. You can probably discontinue the Metronidazole if you haven't already. I concur on switching to the Baytril. In older hens, you can sometimes see oviduct infections that will not respond very quickly at all, and often not to Baytril, but that shouldn't be the case here.
> 
> Pidgey


It was a stained cytology showing alot of long rods. I'm tube feeding 24 mls Kaytee exact 3 times a day for each of them. Can baytril be give WITH smz/tmp? Baytril dose? The vets around here don't have a clue about pigeons. I'm doing the research, their giving me the prescriptions. Their trying to help but don't know what to do.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there's conflicting information about taking Baytril concurrently with a Trimethoprim/Sulfa. They overlap for a lot of things and we tend to use the Trimethoprim/Sulfa for nestlings as well as for certain anaerobic infections that Baytril doesn't get. Baytril goes more after Gram negatives than positives. The old formulary for Baytril went with a straight 15 mg/kg, PO, BID (15 milligrams of pure medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily) and the newer ones give a range of 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID.

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Well, there's conflicting information about taking Baytril concurrently with a Trimethoprim/Sulfa. They overlap for a lot of things and we tend to use the Trimethoprim/Sulfa for nestlings as well as for certain anaerobic infections that Baytril doesn't get. Baytril goes more after Gram negatives than positives. The old formulary for Baytril went with a straight 15 mg/kg, PO, BID (15 milligrams of pure medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily) and the newer ones give a range of 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID.
> 
> Pidgey


I will try batril, not sure I have any left though (had to use it for my dog). You think this is maybe an overgrowth of bacteria? Each are 5 months old only weighing about 3 oz. The only other thing these 2 have in common is that I had to move them to my other loft at a young age because they were shyer and being bullied by juvinile cocks. They were never "pushy" when it came to feeding time.
Thank you again for your help


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Personally, I would not give the Bactrim with the Baytril. 

I am an idiot when it comes to converting ounces to grams but 3 oz seems mighty low. Usually, at 5 months a pigeon can weigh 300 - 350 grams. This may be the key to the problem in that they may not have been getting enough food.

Pidgey, would you convert the oz to grams for us?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In weight terms, it'd be like 90 grams, so it's either a micro-pigeon breed, a typo, a bad scale or one very emaciated pigeon.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Anyhow, those birds aren't likely to feel any hunger or thirst getting 24 milliliters of formula, three times per day. You'd almost have to stop for a day or two for them to actually work up enough hunger to start eating on their own. Incidentally, I've seen a lot of long rods when the birds are being fed a lot of Kaytee so I'm not sure that the fecal results would be very valid under the circumstances.

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> In weight terms, it'd be like 90 grams, so it's either a micro-pigeon breed, a typo, a bad scale or one very emaciated pigeon.
> 
> Pidgey


A little of all 3. Some of my hens are VERY Petite (even the eggs were tiny), they are emaciated (breast bone protruding), and the postage scale at work didn't work so I had to weigh her on the dog scale (not accurate - 3 oz).
My smallest hen came out of an egg no bigger than a large grape. Her parents abandoned her upon hatching. She was fostered by an extremely large (my biggest) hen that I had rescued on the side of the road. "Frenchy" was participating in a race when she was attacked by a hawk down the street from the vet hospital that I work at. I took her in (broken/gouged wing) found her owner through the bands on her legs and called him. Seems she was headed back home to Quebec! The owner told me that if I wanted to nurse her back to health I could keep her. "Frenchy" raised this itty bitty baby no bigger than your thumb nail as her own. "Baby" is full grown now and not much bigger than a morning dove. Very sleek and petite - but tough. (Frenchy's wing healed but she can't fly, she has a "handicap ramp" to the top perch!)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, then, it looks like all we've really got to go by for weight is guesses. Just out of curiosity, have they put any weight back on since you've started feeding them? Another thing you might do is get a cheap plastic kitchen scale from your local grocery store--those work pretty well.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Most of our mourning doves have weighed anywhere from 90 to 125 grams but a pigeon should still weigh more than that. We have a very petite little hen who never weighs more than about 225 grams. Hopefully, with you feeding yours Exact, she will begin putting on a bit more weight. You can help add weight by using a product called Nutrical. It is specifically made to put on weight for dogs but we have long used it for our pigeons, particularly those that are recuperating. It comes in a tube and you simply squeeze out about 1/2 inch and add it to the formula at least one time per day.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Well, then, it looks like all we've really got to go by for weight is guesses. Just out of curiosity, have they put any weight back on since you've started feeding them? Another thing you might do is get a cheap plastic kitchen scale from your local grocery store--those work pretty well.
> 
> Pidgey


Just by feeling, #1 has put on some weight. She is starting to pick at food but nothing substantial. I will pick up a scale. Important to have but I just haven't had any sick birds and I relied on the postal scale at work (battery dead) I just put them in a large cage outside my door that I set up for them on the warm days - very warm today. They seem a little more active with more room and hearing the other birds. Walking around and picking at seed. When I bring them inside in their smaller cage they seem very depressed and just sit there "hunched". I'm just very baffled. Never had this problem before.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Most of our mourning doves have weighed anywhere from 90 to 125 grams but a pigeon should still weigh more than that. We have a very petite little hen who never weighs more than about 225 grams. Hopefully, with you feeding yours Exact, she will begin putting on a bit more weight. You can help add weight by using a product called Nutrical. It is specifically made to put on weight for dogs but we have long used it for our pigeons, particularly those that are recuperating. It comes in a tube and you simply squeeze out about 1/2 inch and add it to the formula at least one time per day.


The little "baby" I wrote about is not one of the sick ones. She is just "tiny" framewise. Her head is about the size of a dime, but very healthy and well padded with a great appetite. She is the same age as the 2 sick ones. They are twice her size but extremely thin. Their just not eating for some reason.
We have nutracal at work. I wish I had known I could use that before I came home Friday. I'll start that too - I'll try anything that may help them.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Three days of Albon won't get Coccidiosis if this was the vet's intention for
this recomendation. You could mix Bactrim w/Baytril, though this seems a bit
overkill. I would give a separate treatment for Coccidisis if they are showing in
unacceptable numbers under the Microscope. For worms, many avian vets are
recommending treating birds three times a year regardless of whether the eggs
are showing in a float or not as they can hide and hatch later even after a 
treatment for worms.

Here's a link from the Resource Section for Pigeon Supply Houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

The only Supply House that I know of right now that is carrying Baytril
would be Siegels in a pill format:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Here is a link to All Bird Products that does carry Baytril liquid 10%:

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

When I dose w/drops from any of the liqid medication forms, I put
the empty dropper into the liquid and watch for the displacement of
air from the dropper and count. You will find that two air bubbles will
be two drops.....one drop (10%) is equal to 5mg's of medicine and you
can comfortably give a loading dose w/Baytril for the first couple of
days of treatment.

The 7-1/2mg pills from Siegel's are also a good choice, I keep both on 
hand.

fp


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Three days of Albon won't get Coccidiosis if this was the vet's intention for
> this recomendation. You could mix Bactrim w/Baytril, though this seems a bit
> overkill. I would give a separate treatment for Coccidisis if they are showing in
> unacceptable numbers under the Microscope. For worms, many avian vets are
> ...


He had me stop the Albon because fecal was neg for coccidia. Where there were alot of rods in the fecal he was leaning more towards bacteria I believe. Where there is really NO symtoms other than extremely thin and hunched, the 2 vets I've been working with are leaning towards stress and malnourished - causing bacteria infection I guess. These 2 particular hens are very laid back, not pushy and easily bullied. Even now that they are alone in a cage together - they won't go to the food and water dishes TOGETHER. What little picking they are doing they wait for the other one to leave the dish. I put 2 dishes of each (water and food) at each end of the cage. They seclude themselves from each. Never seen anything like this! I can get baytril at work when I go in. Problem is 1 vet works with exotics, other works with farm animals (chickens, geese, ducks), both admit they no nothing about pigeons but they are both trying to help. Like I said the problem is really lack of symptoms other than very thin, lack of interest in food and water, hunched up and alot of rod bacteria in fecal.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Isn't there some type of "wasting disease," or am I thinking of another species?

Do you think these little ones would be more secure alone, each in their own cage, MsFB? Just a thought...

When Squeaks passed a round worm, his fecals had been negative too! Those worms sure can cause problems, along with weight loss.

Wishing all the best for these two!

Sending warm healing thoughts for full recovery!

Shi & Squeaks

P.S. Would your Vets happen to know any Avian Vets? Maybe they could use professional courtesy to ask questions and obtain suggestions?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yup, there is a wasting illness called "going light" though it is a symptom
of underlying disease as oppposed to an illness per se.

There are many avian vets that folks here at the board use that have said
that it is a non-issue to give baby pigeon Baytril, meant to mention this before.
I would trust the opinion of the three avian vets I know of who have stated this.

Have you treated these two hens for canker, and have you done a white
blood cell count?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Chronic Wasting Disease" is another name for Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy. That family of disorders has a variety of names, depending on the species. Different thing.

Did VitaKing stop selling 10% liquid Baytril (Enrofloxan)?:

http://www.vitakingproducts.com/storefronta.htm

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

THANKS, fp and Pidgey! 

Yes, I have read about CWD in bovines. 

I DID have in mind "going light" as fp mentioned. Sometimes, just a "nudge" helps...

Anyway, MsFB, let's hope you can get some answers...

Shi


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

mr squeaks said:


> Isn't there some type of "wasting disease," or am I thinking of another species?
> 
> Do you think these little ones would be more secure alone, each in their own cage, MsFB? Just a thought...
> 
> ...


In my research I found what was called "young pigeon illness". I asked my 2 vets about this and they had never heard of it.
[/QUOTE]Young Bird Sickness


Young bird disease has spread rapidly around the world in recent years, causing severe losses among young birds.

Pathogen:
This is a mixed infection, involving viruses and bacteria (especially E.coli and cocci, but also protozoa).
The pathogens are transmitted by air, dust and contact between birds, as well as via communal drinking water and feed.
Outbreaks of the disease are promoted by stress factors such as weaning, the introduction of strange birds into a loft, vaccination, heat (accelerated bacterial growth, water shortage), training of juveniles (basketing) and young pigeon flights.

Symptoms of the disease:
The disease can take two forms:

Sudden death not preceded by any perceptible signs of illness:
A typical scenario sees young pigeons released from the loft for their daily training (on a hot summer's day, perhaps), whereupon they fly around for an hour and then return to the loft. They land on the roof or on the alighting ledge, do not respond to the breeder's attempts to entice them into the loft, and die within the space of a few hours. 

Death preceded by visible signs of illness:
During the period between the onset of symptoms and death (lasting from 3 days to 1 week), the following symptoms are observed: lack of activity, puffed-up plumage, refusal of feed, swelling of the crop, weight loss, greenish-yellow faeces in puddles, vomiting.

Recognition of the disease:
Owing to the numerous pathogens involved in this disease, it is only possible to make a tentative diagnosis.

Similar conditions:
E.coli infection, hexamitiasis.
END OF QUOTE
From what I've read also an underlying cause can be circovirus. This is why he has had me change the medications. He also told me that it is mosty supportive care until she builds herself up to fight the virus herself - IF that is what she has. --NO swollen crop, No greenish/yellow feces


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Yup, there is a wasting illness called "going light" though it is a symptom
> of underlying disease as oppposed to an illness per se.
> 
> There are many avian vets that folks here at the board use that have said
> ...


#1 was on metronidozole for 11 days (which takes care of canker), but inside her mouth and throat was clear - that was the first thing I checked! After that, the closest diagnosis was "young pigeon illness". Thats why the different antibiotics. Also, she was wormed with ivomec on day 2.
See why I'm so confused? - nothing adds up! I do appreciate all the advice.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've had young birds that I found in the loft not doing too well. And, yes, I've brought them in for a few weeks of KayTee, medications, teaching them to think of themselves as worthy of fighting for their own food and stuff like that. I've seen that a few times and never lost one of those yet. Many of them have had odorous poop and been thin. One in particular took a couple of rounds in the house amounting to almost six weeks of therapy before he finally ended up doing well out in the loft. That one had a lot of Gram- bacteria in the fecal smear.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Many of them just didn't seem to get the waterer thing, though. I've found several in that condition and had to teach them where the waterer was, what the waterer was for and, apparently, what water was. Some of the birds just don't seem too bright, I guess, and will end up trying to slurp water up from watery poop when they get real desperate. Yech!

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

And the white blood cell count?

fp


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> And the white blood cell count?
> 
> fp


Oh - sorry, I will do that at work when I go in on Tuesday. (I have Sat, Sun, Mon off!)
The 2 of them are now just standing there - side by side (in the house)
Will be back with any updates. Thank you
Also, fecals were pretty normal consistancy today, yet VERY small.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, that would be a good indicator of infection. The other
thing not mentioned is viral infection. This might be why the
birds aren't responding to antibiotic therapy. Just a thought...

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Normal bloodwork parameters:


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, that would be a good indicator of infection. The other
> thing not mentioned is viral infection. This might be why the
> birds aren't responding to antibiotic therapy. Just a thought...
> 
> fp


Thats exactly what one of my vets said - viral infection, I mentioned a few posts back. Changing the meds to treat the symtoms and supportive care. I will do a cbc when I get to work though. I'm surprised he didn't mention that.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Normal bloodwork parameters:


Thank you for the chart!! One less thing I have to look for!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Normal bloodwork parameters:


Source?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

EXOTIC COMPANION MEDICINE HANDBOOK in the chapter for pigeons.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

...for veterinarians

Compiled and edited by Cathy A. Johnson-Delaney, DVM 
and co-edited by Linda R. Harrison.

Zoological Education Network
Lake Worth, Florida

fp


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

*Update!*

#1 "Tuffy" had a perfect fecal this morning - with a very large roundworm in it! I wormed her with Ivomec 12 days ago. I just gave her another .05ml of Ivomec again (all I have is liquid). Anything better? And whats the best way to treat the other 40+ birds?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Ivomec works as long as the worm strain isn't resistant. If you've got roundworms, you're going to have to start working your loft over to get rid of worm eggs. Cleaning, cleaning, cleaning and treating, treating, treating. What kind of floor have you got?

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Well, Ivomec works as long as the worm strain isn't resistant. If you've got roundworms, you're going to have to start working your loft over to get rid of worm eggs. Cleaning, cleaning, cleaning and treating, treating, treating. What kind of floor have you got?
> 
> Pidgey


Wood floor. Is .05mls enough for her? Thats what I gave her 12 days ago, and thats all I had left to give her today. I'll have to pick up more tomorrow.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm not intimately familiar with Ivomec but here's a thread that talks about the dosing:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=120833

See if that helps.

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> I'm not intimately familiar with Ivomec but here's a thread that talks about the dosing:
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=120833
> 
> ...


I can get Ivomec, panacur and strongid at work tomorrow. Any idea which is best? But I can't burn my floors. I clean them with nolvasan, then put down fresh cedar/pine mixed shavings.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, most folks just scrape, scrub and disinfect to the best of their ability. You can take multiple poop samples (still wet--don't use the dry) and then do a bunch of fecal floats looking to see how widespread your problem is. That can tell you how much you need to panic.

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Yeah, most folks just scrape, scrub and disinfect to the best of their ability. You can take multiple poop samples (still wet--don't use the dry) and then do a bunch of fecal floats looking to see how widespread your problem is. That can tell you how much you need to panic.
> 
> Pidgey


OK - off to clean! Thank you


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The strongid is Pyrantal which we normally use as a wormer with excellent results. Right now we have so many we're trying a wormer that member George Simon recommended called Eqvalan which is an ivermectin (Ivomec) based wormer that you add to their drinking water. So far we have seen a few round worms.

Our vet says that Pyrantal is a very "forgiving" wormer in that you can give it about 3 times without issues. 

We have also used Panacur with good results but many here on the forum do not recommend it. You have to be really careful with the correct dosage on this drug.

We also keep Ivomec on hand and use it mainly as drops on the back of their necks for parasites but we have used it in the past for internal roundworms.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oxfendazole & Praziquantel in the Worm-Out gel
is a broad spectrum & will treat for round worms:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.a...ProductID=2994

Another good product is Moxidectin Plus, a member of the Avermectin family as is Ivermectin:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-worms.html

From this link:

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/bu...html#Parasitic

Authored by Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P.,:

"I recommend that birds be periodically dewormed, at least once or twice, during routine first examination, with pyrantel pamoate, even if fecal parasite examinations are negative. This is because the gastrointestinal tract transit time is so fast in birds that worm eggs do not concentrate in the fecals (as they do in dogs and cats), and it is not only possible, but likely, to miss ascarids on a fecal exam.I have performed countless second opinions on small birds with GI problems that have had negative tests for worms, yet, when I dewormed them, they passed roundworms! A very interesting paper was published a few years ago about this very problem, out of the University of Georgia. If a bird passes roundworms, it should be periodically dewormed for the rest of its life, as pathologists have found that larvae may encyst in the tissues and be released during times of stress, resulting in additional worms infesting the intestines."

Dosages:

Pyrantel pamoate: 4.5 mg/kg PO q7-10 days

Praziquantel: 9 mg/kg IM (for cestodes)

Colin Walker recommends treating for worms three times a year with or with out diagnostics.


Hope this helps...

fp


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

From what I've read the three wormers that you mentioned all kill round worm. My dogs were recently treated for roundworm with Strongid T

I use Ivomec. Here is a post from a long time ago about Ivomec...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=11646

How do you know it is roundworm? 

Julie

PS. After you give a bird a wormer the worms will come out in their droppings. I'm surprised to hear there was another after 12 days, but the second dose that you gave at day 12 should finish them off. To be safe I would give another dose in 14 more days. 

Anyone disagree?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Thank you for the responses. I can't reply to each because for some reason the "quote" response link isn't working for me.
I had ivomec (swine and cattle) on hand. I did a float and cytology 13 days ago. The float was negative, and the cytology showed alot of rod bacteria. I wormed her with ivomec anyway plus started the other antibiotics. Yesterday morning she had her best fecal since she came down ill. There was a very large roundworm in it (I've been a vet tech for 35 years so the roundworm was simple!) BUT - Newest update - I did another float today at work. Results: a few roundworm eggs AND LOADED WITH CAPILARIA! I was floored! I don't understand why this didn't show up 13 days ago. (I DID worm her again yesterday). I also ordered Eqvalan (ivomec for horses - water soluable) today at work (overnight express!). The problem with the Ivomec - swine/cattle is that its not water soluable, you have to dose each individual bird. Just to be sure I'm going to dose EACH bird INDIVIDUALLY to make sure they get it anyway. She is picking at food a little more, but not enough to sustain her so I give her two feedings a day to keep her hydrated. Thank God we've had unusually warm weather this week (85-90), because she is much happier outside in the cage I set up for her and her buddy - they come back inside before dusk. She's still getting antibiotics (Dr. said it can't hurt her). I also ordered "nutra cal" (overnight). Anyone know the best way to give that?
I just want to do everything I possibly can. Anyone know the prognosis for cappilaria? She must have it pretty bad to be this sick. I feel terrible.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can cure them of Capillaria. I see it occasionally around here in the wild birds. I use Panacur for that one but it's one you have to be very careful with in pigeons, especially if they're anemic from infections or hemorrhaging (due to the Capillaria or whatever).

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> You can cure them of Capillaria. I see it occasionally around here in the wild birds. I use Panacur for that one but it's one you have to be very careful with in pigeons, especially if they're anemic from infections or hemorrhaging (due to the Capillaria or whatever).
> 
> Pidgey


She is so fragile right now that I don't dare use panacur on her, plus I already gave her another dose of Ivomec on Monday. No positive change to speak of. She pecks at food a little. Still not drinking on her own. Having a large amount of fecal - dark green w/white but very sticky. Just don't know what else to do - this is day 14 and no worse no better.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Msfreebird said:


> She is so fragile right now that I don't dare use panacur on her, plus I already gave her another dose of Ivomec on Monday. No positive change to speak of. She pecks at food a little. Still not drinking on her own. Having a large amount of fecal - dark green w/white but very sticky. Just don't know what else to do - this is day 14 and no worse no better.



I'm so sorry to hear your bird is so fragile. It is hard to know when to treat for worms as it will send some fragile birds over the edge. 

You can use a product called chapparal in capsule or make a tea, and that will rid the bird of worms and purify the blood without harming the bird. You can also use garlic in cap form, if the bird doesn't have an upset stomach. You have the advantage of not upsetting the birds intestinal flora and there are no side effects, unlike the drugs. 

Garlic also is a natural antibacterial, antiinfectent, as well as antifungul, and can help with digestive issues-clean up the blood, with the only side effect of strong odor.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> I'm so sorry to hear your bird is so fragile. It is hard to know when to treat for worms as it will send some fragile birds over the edge.
> 
> You can use a product called chapparal in capsule or make a tea, and that will rid the bird of worms and purify the blood without harming the bird. You can also use garlic in cap form, if the bird doesn't have an upset stomach. You have the advantage of not upsetting the birds intestinal flora and there are no side effects, unlike the drugs.
> 
> Garlic also is a natural antibacterial, antiinfectent, as well as antifungul, and can help with digestive issues-clean up the blood, with the only side effect of strong odor.


Is it safe to use chapparal whereas I just wormed her again on Monday? She seamed to go backwards when I stopped metronidozole. My vet suggested I go back on metro because that helps the GI track. From the way she is standing (hunched), I'm assuming she has an upset in the abdomen caused by a heavy infestation of capillaria and roundworms. So is garlic NOT a good idea? She is being such a trouper - I can't give up on her! I was finally able to aquire a scale today so I can get an accuarate weight. Is there something I can give her for anemia to help boost her? She has not passed any more roundworms since Monday. Just the one large one I saw. I am going to do another float tomorrow to see if the egg count (capalleria) is down at all.


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