# Hanky-Panky investigation



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I have pretty typcial colors in my loft. Blue bars, blue checks (light ones and T-pattern). I have a blue spread (black) and have just added some Trentons that are adding quite different colors like recessive red and dilute to my loft.

I have a blue check cock paired with a blue bar hen. Pretty typical, right? I always expect either blue bars or blue checks out of them. All their parents are bars or checks.

In their first round, out popped this little bugger pictured below. The coloring is unlike any other blue checks I've raised, and it doesn't look t-pattern at all - quite the opposite actually. 

So now I'm wondering if my recessive red cock, which I know now (thanks PT!) carries dilute and had an opal father, may have had an unauthorized encounter with this blue bar hen when no one was looking?

Is it possible to get this color/pattern baby from a blue check (split for BB) x blue bar? The color is most accurately pictured in the first two pictures.


----------



## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

wait till it moults... look a bit smokey.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks like a smokey blue t-pattern. If the daddy is just a check, then someone else fertilized the egg! Have any pictures of the potential suspects?  I wouldn't be surprised if it was the trenton cockbird. This bird resembles the smokies in the trentons that give them a "plum" look.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I agree that the bird is probably smoky T-pattern or a dark check, though the beak is not really light enough for homozygous smoky. You would have to wait for the first moult to get a better idea of the genes.

I doubt that the bird is split recessive red. Since in my experience the trenton strains show very clear red edging on the feathers when the birds are split for recessive red, though it is not a hard and fast rule.


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Looks like a smokey blue t-pattern. If the daddy is just a check, then someone else fertilized the egg! Have any pictures of the potential suspects?  I wouldn't be surprised if it was the trenton cockbird. This bird resembles the smokies in the trentons that give them a "plum" look.


Yeah, the original, presumed daddy is just a check. Here he is as a baby (He's two years old now). His momma is BCWF pied and his daddy is BB.










Here is the RR Trenton cock.










But the feather coloring pattern on this baby doesn't look t-pattern to me at all. Is this something that changes after the first moult?


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Kastle Loft said:


> Yeah, the original, presumed daddy is just a check. Here he is as a baby (He's two years old now). His momma is BCWF pied and his daddy is BB.
> 
> But the feather coloring pattern on this baby doesn't look t-pattern to me at all. Is this something that changes after the first moult?


I'm resurfacing this question. As it turns out, the baby that was the subject of this thread has turned out to be one of if not my best YB this year. Almost always in the first drop to my loft.

So obviously now it becomes more important that I know who the sire is. Now that I have some more photos, I would appreciate more confirmation of what I already suspect: That the father is the RR Trenton pictured above based on the fact that it appears the baby is smokey.

Here are some more current photos. 

Dam is the blue bar










Her alleged mate is this blue check










Here is the baby currently


----------



## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

Your squab is smokey.
In the first days,a blue smokey squab have a black ring on the beak.But if the squab is split for RR too,the ring is red.
If the RR is the father of the baby,the baby is necessarily split for RR....so with a red ring.
And if you don't remember the color of the beak,mate this young with a RR.If he produce RR,his father is the RR.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Your young bird is likely from the rr cock. My reasoning is (1) rr and het. rr frequently have red eye ceres as your youngster does and (2) smoky rr's express poor red coloration in tail and back and dull red throughout the rest of the bird as your rr cock does. The youngster also appears to have the head and body type of the red cock.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

jabadao said:


> Your squab is smokey.
> In the first days,a blue smokey squab have a black ring on the beak.But if the squab is split for RR too,the ring is red.
> If the RR is the father of the baby,the baby is necessarily split for RR....so with a red ring.
> And if you don't remember the color of the beak,mate this young with a RR.If he produce RR,his father is the RR.


I never knew that split RR with smoky will show a red beak ring instead of black... I have certainly never seen it.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

My guess is that the bird has come from its suspected parents, They could both be het smoky, If thats the case, About 1:4 of their young will look similar to this.

The hen is obviously het smoky and because your birds come from Trenton lines I would suspect a lot of them are het for the gene.

But at the end of the day, The young could genetically be from either bird and we are only able to make guesses on whats seen here.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

NZ Pigeon said:


> My guess is that the bird has come from its suspected parents, They could both be het smoky, If thats the case, About 1:4 of their young will look similar to this.
> 
> The hen is obviously het smoky and because your birds come from Trenton lines I would suspect a lot of them are het for the gene.
> 
> But at the end of the day, The young could genetically be from either bird and we are only able to make guesses on whats seen here.


NZ, I don't think that he has said his blues are from Trentons, only his new rr and gimpel birds are. He did, also, say he has never raised this "smokey" coloration from his blues in the past.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I've just today read the orig. Kastle thread "rec. red cock x dunn hen" and want to add info to the rec. red Trenton/gimpel phenomenon. A few years ago I bred some rec. yellow Trentons to blue checks and also produced the gimpel phenotype (identical to hen pictured) in daughters only. After a couple more generations I was able to produce cock birds of same color. Some of the genetics experts here in Iowa concluded that the gimpel phenotype was being expressed due to combination of smokey and pale dilute, which they determined to be common in rec. yellow Trentons. Pale dilute apparently allows better expression than dilute, of the bronze (gold) when combined with smokey. Food for thought, if your interested.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

tmaas said:


> NZ, I don't think that he has said his blues are from Trentons, only his new rr and gimpel birds are. He did, also, say he has never raised this "smokey" coloration from his blues in the past.


They may not be, But I was just saying that with Trenton being amongst his birds its likely that smoky will be carried along.

Yes but how many birds has he bred from this pair? only 1:4 would be smoky if the cockbird carries it. Also, we know the hen carries the gene so IMO without knowing the breeding of the birds its also likely the cock does.

Regardless of all of this, I put my opinion forward based on what I know of the situation, Just like your post, We are making guesses here. Yours just as likely as mine but guesses nonetheless


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Thanks guys for all the responses. It seems clear to me that the Trenton is the dad. This is the first year I've had any Trentons in my loft and the first time I've had smokey appear.


----------



## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

I'ts a very looking bird.


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Just thought I'd update. This hen turned out to be my best young bird of 2012. Raced 1275 miles in six races. Got an equal 1st in a 100m., 1st place 200-mile and 2nd place 300 miles.


----------



## TALON (Oct 29, 2011)

Kastle Loft said:


> Just thought I'd update. This hen turned out to be my best young bird of 2012. Raced 1275 miles in six races. Got an equal 1st in a 100m., 1st place 200-mile and 2nd place 300 miles.


Congrats! Great looking bird!! 

Ken


----------



## Woody Pigeon (Feb 3, 2013)

Just for a laugh you should put him on the pigeon version of the Jeremy Kyle show, that'd sort out any doubt you had pretty quickly


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

gbhman said:


> How did you end up pairing them this year?


The hen that bred me this hen is with my best Janssen cock this year. The adulterous Trenton cock that bred me this hen was given away to a friend. 

This hen, who is now a yearling, picked her own mate in the OB flying loft. They have eggs but I've swapped them out for plastic and won't let them raise babies this year. If she has another good year, I'll pick out another mate for her, keep her on the race team, and raise a few babies from her to test.


----------

