# Another pigeon's found me...



## draykie

Hey again, all.

Seems like another bird has found me now. On my way upstairs after coming home from work, we noticed a dark, speckled pigeon huddled in the corner of the stairway, covered in ice and snow. After warming her (I'm assuming it's a her) up in a towel for about 30-40 minutes, we put her in a rubbermaid tote with some water and seed.

She's very alert and seems capable of flight. She had a small nick on her wing which we washed with water, then treated with polysporin. She has a slight smell about her, but it could be because her feet have poo all over them. The few poos she's made so far have been mostly white with some green and are not at all solid.

Should I start her on Triple-Sulfa just in case? Or is there something else I should be doing for her?


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## Charis

It would be good if you put her on a heating pad set on the low setting. To warm completely, she needs to do so from the inside and for that she need constant heat.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/basic-steps-to-saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-or-dove-8822.html


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## draykie

Unfortunately, I don't have a heating pad and she was found late at night, so there's no place open where I can buy one. 

She was bundled against my chest, within my jacket and a towel, for about an hour after initially being held for 20 minutes, to keep her warm. She soon began to fall asleep like this and wasn't very happy to be disturbed and placed into a tote. Now she's inside with us, her tote near the heater, so I hope that'll do it for her.


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## Charis

Well ...I'll keep my fingers crossed.


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## draykie

I forgot to mention - I had read that thread when we first brought her in. So I checked her mouth out (which she was not particularly happy about) and it looks clear. No stickiness, no signs of canker. The only things really that seem to be wrong with her are her watery poops and the small scrape on the top of her wing.


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## pdpbison

Hi draykie,


Post some images of her? And, some close up images of the poops, soon as you can.


Also, add a few drops of Cider Vinegar to her Water for her drinking.


No flying attempts for now, she should stay composed and relaxing, in case she had injured a wing which is now having a chance to heal.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jaye

Since nobody else replied to your question...yes...start the antibiotic ASAP...topical ointments are OK, but if there is a definite injury, one has to start oral anyibiotics.

Thanks for helping her/him.

And...yes....once you have helped one...word gets out in the Feral Pigeon world....


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## draykie

Hey again, all.

The little bird hasn't eaten or drunk at all today. As far as I can tell, she didn't eat or drink last night when we took her inside either. Tomorrow I plan on keeping an eye on her, to see if she decides to start. If not, would it be advisable to pick up some wet dog food/baby food and try to syringe-feed her by placing it on her tongue, like the sulfa-meds? If so, how much is advisable to feed and how often?

Thanks again.


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## Jay3

How old is this bird? You are going to have to rehydrate and hand feed her.
NO! Don't give her wet dog food. That's meat and pigeons don't eat that. If you have frozen peas and corn, you can defrost and warm them under running water, and place a pea way to the back of the tongue. Then let her swallow it, and do that with another. How big is the bird? Can you post pics? If you hold the bird on your lap and against your belly, you will have better control to be able to open its beak and put in the peas. You need to rehydrate the bird first. Mix a cup of warm water to which you have added a pinch of salt and a pinch of sugar. See if you can get her to drink it. If not, then try dribbling a bit at the edge of her beak and see if she will swallow it.


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## draykie

Right, I feel pretty dumb now. I thought I'd read somewhere about people feeding baby pigeons wet dog food first, but given that it's meat, that is a pretty bad idea.

The bird has bright red eyes and looks fully grown. I'll post some pics up tomorrow, along with pics of her poops. She had quite a few of them overnight and during the day today, some of which were more solid, some of which were slimy/watery still.

I'll try the water/food stuff tomorrow when she's awake again.


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## John_D

draykie said:


> Right, I feel pretty dumb now. I thought I'd read somewhere about people feeding baby pigeons wet dog food first, but given that it's meat, that is a pretty bad idea.
> 
> The bird has bright red eyes and looks fully grown. I'll post some pics up tomorrow, along with pics of her poops. She had quite a few of them overnight and during the day today, some of which were more solid, some of which were slimy/watery still.
> 
> I'll try the water/food stuff tomorrow when she's awake again.


The food people refer to is actually soaked dog biscuits, kibble or whatever, which is fine but messy to deal with.

Peas and corn are definitely easier


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## Jay3

Yes, if you don't have frozen peas and corn, and you do have dry dog food, you could soak some of that for now til you get the peas and corn. Feed the same way. She should be getting about 40 to 50 at a feeding, and again when the crop empties. A few times a day. Maybe start with peas first, as they would be easier to digest. And maybe start with 30 and work up to 40 or 50.


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## Jay3

Did you happen to find a heating pad yet? Do you have any canker drugs? Where are you located?


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## draykie

I haven't found a heating pad, but we've been keeping her near a heater all day in her box. She's quite active, she's just not eating or drinking yet.

I gave her mouth a good look for any signs of canker and found nothing. I don't have any drugs for it, either. I'm in Winnipeg, MB, Canada.


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## Jaye

Any signs of external injury ???? I believe there's an online bird med dealer in Canada somewhere.....getting some Triple Sulpha or Amoxycillin to have on hand isn't a bad idea....


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## draykie

I have Triple-Sulfa on hand already from helping the other bird we're keeping for the time being. I'll start her on Dobato's recommended dosages tomorrow.

The only sign of external injury I can see is the small nick on her wing, which showed a very small bit of blood when she was first taken in, but since it was washed and treated, it doesn't look like anything's wrong. Maybe just a feather or two is missing.


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## pdpbison

Hi draykie,



Make up some mild Eletrolyte Solution...have it 'tepid'...have the Pigeon on a soft, folded Towel, on your Lap...be gentle with them. Do everything s-l-o-w-l-y...


Softly touch their Beak from the front...moisten your finger tips in the Electrolyte Solution...softly grasp the mouth/Root-area, of their Beak...they will make tiny 'yum-yum' motions. Do this a few times.

From the front, all of this...

Then, gently guide their Beak into the tepid, flat Bottom Coffee Cup or Tea Cup the electrolyte Solution, and, if they are thirsty, they will drink...just softly guide their Beak, finger tips on the root area of the Mouth part by their Face proper...keep your finger tips on this area as you guide the Beak into the Solution.


If they do not feel like eating yet, let them fast.


Obtain some small whole Seeds, such as Finch or Canary or small Dove Mix...and, have the Pigeon on a folded Towel, on your Lap, and, pretend 'peck' wiuth your crook'd index finger to invite them to peck also.


Waiting for images!



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jay3

Canker doesn't always show in the mouth. Do you have the dog biscuits to soak for now? Can you get frozen peas tomorrow early? You need to get food and water into her. Do you have anything you can feed her for now?


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## pdpbison

If the Bird has been making quite a few poops the last two days, then, there need be no urgency to feed them by force.

If the Bird is not hungry, one can simply respect that, and, wait, pending further examinations/evaluations of their condition.

One can work with the Bird by kindness and patience, to help the Bird feel that things are safe-enough TO eat, and, to offer appropriate Seeds in a manner and setting which is also about re-assuring the Bird that things are safe.

If they feel intimidated, shy or worried, distrustful, they may very well refuse to eat.


If they are ill with some kinds of illness, they will not have an appetite, same as we feel sometimes when sick.


No need to be in a hurry to feed a new Bird, let alone, to do so by force and out of irrational compulsion where no contextual justification exists to do so.


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## Jay3

pdpbison said:


> *If the Bird has been making quite a few poops the last two days, then, there need be no urgency to feed them by force.*
> 
> That's just fine Phil, except that not everyone will recognize starvation poops when they see them. A short while ago I received a bird who the finder had said was pooping just fine. They turned out to be starvation poops.
> 
> *If the Bird is not hungry, one can simply respect that, and, wait, pending further examinations/evaluations of their condition.*
> 
> Another good one Phil. Yes, one can just sit back and watch as the bird gets weaker and starves to death, if that be your choice. Sometimes a bird that hasn't eaten in a while needs to be jump started to eat.
> 
> *One can work with the Bird by kindness and patience, to help the Bird feel that things are safe-enough TO eat, and, to offer appropriate Seeds in a manner and setting which is also about re-assuring the Bird that things are safe.*
> 
> Right Phil, and most people work. So the bird can just sit around getting weaker, until the person gets home and has the time to spend with making him feel safe enough to eat, in a manner and setting which is also about re-assuring the bird that things are safe.
> 
> *If they feel intimidated, shy or worried, distrustful, they may very well refuse to eat.*
> 
> Well most ferals DO feel intimidated, shy, worried, and distrustful. So If you are waiting for them to feel at home and safe, the bird could very well be dead by then.
> 
> 
> If they are ill with some kinds of illness, they will not have an appetite, same as we feel sometimes when sick.
> 
> 
> No need to be in a hurry to feed a new Bird, let alone, to do so by force and out of irrational compulsion where no contextual justification exists to do so.



YOU NEED TO GET NOURISHMENT INTO THE BIRD, WHETHER OR NOT HE/SHE IS FEELING AT HOME WITH YOU, WHOM HE CONSIDERS TO BE A PREDATOR, IN A STRANGE SETTING.


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## draykie

I'm off work tomorrow, so I'll definitely be keeping an eye on her. If she hasn't consumed any water or food by afternoon, I'll start popping peas and corn on her.

Is there any way I can hydrate her like this, or by syringe? Or is the moisture in the peas/corn enough to hydrate her and get her food at the same time? I've been mixing Powerade into my other pigeon's daily routine and she seems to be getting a lot better little by little. Maybe I could gently syringe some onto this one's tongue to get some fluid into her?


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## Jay3

Have you tried holding a small container, like a shot glass or something similar up to her, and try guiding her beak gently into the water, but not covering her nose?
You need to be careful giving liquids by syringe, as you can easily aspirate her. You can try dribbling a bit of water on the outside of her beak and see if she will drink it. It's just getting her started. The peas will give some water.


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## draykie

Yes, I tried making pecking motions with my fingertip to encourage her to eat, but to no avail. I also tried doing similar with my finger in a bowl of water, then lightly dipping the tip of her beak into it, but she seemed more concerned with my presence than following through and actually drinking.

If she refuses to be encouraged to drink, will the veggies give her enough hydration to keep going until, hopefully, she gets back on track?


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## Jay3

They will help, but she will need more than that. Leave the water with her, in a small bowl that she can drink from, and occasionally and gently try to dip her beak as you have done. I think she will eventually drink.


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## draykie

Alright. She'll be getting a close watch tomorrow. I'll keep you folks updated.

Just out of sheer curiosity, if I were to get a human prescription for amoxycillin, would it work for her too?


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## Jay3

* Description: Amoxicillin is a semisynthetic analog of penicillin with a broad range of bacterial activity against many gram + and gram - bacteria.
* Usage: Amoxicillin can be used with any bacterial infection showing susceptibility to the drug.
* Adverse reactions: None seen with any frequency.
* Dosage: 25 - 50 mg/Bird divided daily or 1500 - 3000 mg/gallon of water for 10 - 14 days.
* Comments: Amoxicillin is very effective, well absorbed, safe, and well tolerated in the pigeon. 

http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html#antibiotic


I read that many bacterias that cause illness in birds are resistant to it though.


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## pdpbison

Lets start over please - 


A) We need good Images of the Pigeon themselves, form the side, form the front, and of the face.

Also, goos, close up images, in focus, of some fresh poops...and, some account of roughly how many of these, he has made in the preceding 24 hours.


B ) You need to evelve, develop or work on being able to handle a Bird in order to do a thorough examination of them, on arrival, or soon after, in order to determine quite a few things, upon which, subsequent courses of action will depend.
If you can not do this, thgen find someone to help gently hold the Pigeon, so the Pigeon is in a normal attitude, and, then, examine them as thoroughly as possible...seeing if the Vent is clean, seeing if they feel thin or robust, palpating their Crop to see if it has anything in it, and or has any subtle hints in the Skin, of injury or perforation or contusion.



C ) Can you tell fecal matter from Bile?


If this Bird is injured in the Crop or has infection and inflamation in the Crop, or has Crop contents not passing, or INternal INjuries, trying to force feed it would only create more and worse problems.

If a Pigeon is not eating, there will be a reason for it. Sometimes the reason is they are shy and nervous from mis-handling or confused handling and they are afraid to be vulnerable.

Sometimes it is because they are sick or injured or both.

If this Bird was found on the ground, or appeared to be weak, one may as well assume they are sick.

What kind of sick it is, we do not know, and, have to rely on you for the details asked for, in order to begin to determine what it might be.


You need to comfort the Pigeon and figure out ways of assuring or re-assuring them, to do an examination palpably and visually, of the Neck and the Crop, looking for any tiny scabs, any small Feathers out of place, any lumps or bumps or signs of blood ( old or new ) or injury. Check the Abdomon also.


Are they underweight? Full Muscled? Drowsy? Alert and perky?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## draykie

Picture time! This is just after she took her dosage of Triple-Sulfa this morning. She started out being very wary of what I was doing, then eventually took the meds very amicably, before apparently getting sick of it and biting me a few times. 

Examining her previously nicked wing has produced nothing - it looks as good as new, if not just a little ruffled up feather-wise. The reason she seems to have stuff caked onto her feathers in one of these pics is because she had an episode last night where she got all wrapped up in her flooring and tripped, then struggled enough to get a lot of her poops that night smeared all over her. Messy girl.

She does seem to have a bit less weight on her than our other patient, but she's quite alert and follows you around with her eyes. One little noise is enough to send her into investigation mode. Her crop doesn't seem to have a lot in it, but doesn't feel lumpy or anything, no blood or scabs or signs of any sort of injury.

Without further ado, pictures:


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## draykie

I know the poop looks a little black in some images, but it's really just my camera. It's more of a dark green.


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## Jaye

IN that first pic she is turning her head to the side and gazing upward. Is that just because she's looking at you ? Or does she do that regularly ???

I think that the peas and corn plus the triple-sulpha has most bases covered. If I were really to cover them all, I would get myself some Flagyl/Metronidazole, Spartrix or Ronidazole as well. That would pretty much be using a wide net to cover a variety of maladies.

Metronidazole can sometimes be acquired quickly at a fish/aquarium store, as it is used to treat fish tanks. If you had the inclination to phone up a few places, you might find some. Just make sure it is 100% Metronidazole, with no other ingredients.

BTW..the nick in the wing itself isn't my concern. Sounds like it was (fortunately) somewhat superficial. It's just that, if she was injured by a predator or got any foreign objects (i.e. dirt) in the wound, an internal antibiotic such as what you are now using is the only thing that will clear that up.


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## draykie

Hey again, all.

She's started eating on her own now, and quite voraciously at that. She's also not tossing it around at all - she's hitting it perfectly square-on and cleaning up her dish quite well.  I have yet to see her drink, but she showed some interest when having her beak dipped lightly into the water earlier, so I'll keep an eye on her.

Jaye, she doesn't look around like that very often - just when something grabs her attention. Like me constantly checking on her or replenishing her seed supply.


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## Jaye

If she is improving since the start of the triple sulpha, it may be a bacterial infection which has neurological symptoms (salmonella, for example). Keep up the feeding, keep an eye on her progress. She will need to be hydrated so if you cannot for sure determine whether she's drinking, best to still do a few feedings of veggies daily.

I would still be inclined to do a course of Metronidazole...if for no other reason than to take care of any possible secondary infections....

This will be a several-week recovery process, likely. It's not a quick-fix, let-'em-go sorta situation. But you are doing well.....


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## draykie

The little patient has begun to drink - and in great quantity. She drank a whole cup full of Powerade-water, then half of another, and then proceeded to pee everywhere - in great quantity. I think she's learned her lesson now, because she's still drinking, but quite a bit more conservatively.


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## Frank-NC

great story and thanks for helping the little bird out , please keep us updated also.


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## draykie

I might've spoken too soon. She's still drinking very excessively. She's also gotten some very watery droppings (sometimes nothing but water) out of it. She remains eating very steadily on her own, though, and getting her medicine once in the morning and once at night.


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## Jay3

Drinking excessively...............not a good sign.


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## draykie

Could it just be that she has a strange fondness for Powerade?


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## Jaye

Is there an avian vet anywhere near you ? She may be having some renal issues. Could be the result of a secondary infection.

Then again...I have a patient here who is either PMV or Salmonella, likely...and she exhibited similar activities to what you have been describing...the food flinging...the dehydration and refusal to drink on her own. In the last few days, she too has recently 'discovered' water again and has been drinking a lot of it.

I think stop the Powerade and just offer regular water now. See if it continues. In a pinch stuff like Powerade or Gatorade is OK, but shouldn't really be given for more than a couple of days, tops. That stuff has a lotta crap in it....Pedialyte is a preferred hydration product for birds, actually.

How is her demeanor and spirit ? Does she seem stronger and more alert than before ?

If, after switching to water, the watery poops continue...and you really cannot get her to a vet for a blood test...I would be inclined to treat for coccidiosis, using Appartex tablets (available online) as the meds of choice. See if that makes her poops start looking more normal....


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## draykie

There are avian vets, but the last time I brought a pigeon in to them, they pretty much refused to look at it and suggested euthanasia when told only some of his minor problems. 

This little patient has actually never been a food-flinger, unlike the other bird we have right now. She's always been quite accurate with her pecking, it just took her a little while to get into doing it on her own. I've switched her back to plain water and will watch how that goes for a few days. Would it be advisable to do a few days of water, then a few days of apple juice, then water, then Pedialyte, then water, then calcium or garlic-enriched water, etc.?

She's quite alert and seems to take great pleasure in following people around as best she can from within her box. Our other bird is quite a bit more active as of late, flapping her wings, talking, and running around when she wants to be held and cuddled. This one seems perfectly content to simply sit and stare, occasionally moving to get food or water or to follow someone around on the outside.


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## Jaye

I am sorry...you are right...I was confusing your thread w/ someone else's.

Well....if no vet, and she is on triple-sulpha...the only thing I would do next is the Ivermectin and then get some Appartex. You can give these while on the antibiotic; they are both one-dose-repeat-in-a-week medications. 

One is sort of now taking guesses as to what is going on.

I wouldn't keep switching between fluids, personally. I'd do the water, and determine whether she's drinking any or not. If so, see if that plus the meds changes her poops for the better.

If it doesn't....I would defer to other suggestions from the Forum....since the only other thing I could guess is, again, a renal issue... in which case Doxycycline sometimes is effective for that.....


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## Charis

Where are you located? I may be able to come up with a vet that will treat her?


Treating for coccidia would be a good idea as excessive drinking can be one of the sypmtoms. The best way to know for sure, though, is to have a fecal done.


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## Dobato

The Triple-Sulfa she is on, outside of any bacterial issues, will also treat for any possible cocci problems. I would probably just offer her plain water for the time being to see if doing so corrects things.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## Charis

Dobato said:


> The Triple-Sulfa she is on, outside of any bacterial issues, *will also treat for any possible cocci problems.* I would probably just offer her plain water for the time being to see if doing so corrects things.
> 
> Good luck with her,
> 
> Karyn



Problem being...it may be something completely different.


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## Dobato

Charis said:


> *Treating for coccidia would be a good idea *as excessive drinking can be one of the sypmtoms.


I was just informing Drakie that your suggestion that it would be a good idea coccidia was already being addressed with the Triple-Sulfa.

Karyn


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## draykie

I'm located in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.

There continues to be a lot of drinking and a lot of urinating from the bird. She's still eating a healthy amount, but her droppings seem to be taking the colour of her food (sunflower seeds make beige-ish droppings, for example) and are still never very solid. They are, at best, lumpy and very wet. She has also started to toss her seeds a little when she eats, but not nearly to the degree that our PMV patient does.


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## Charis

I'll see who I can find for you.


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## draykie

She's started to have some more solid, green-and-white poops. They are few and far between, but they are still happening sometimes.


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## Jaye

That's not bad news, then. 

Do the watery ones have any solid in them at all ? If so, are they brown and stringy, or more lumpy and a different color ? Is the clear liquidy part sort of viscous and gooey, or just thin and watery ?


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## Charis

What a challenge. I have had some luck finding you a resource and here's what I have.


Best friends veterinary clinic will treat pigeons if they are pets. The receptionist said that if you have a pigeon, you must have a wildlife permit. I questioned her some on this by reminding her that there are many different kinds of pigeons and not all are feral. She hesitated and I let it go.
In the future, if more pigeons find you, this clinic may be a possibility in an emergency. I would encourage you to buy some snap on legs bands for such situations.

204-269-4461

There is a wildlife care center near you...

http://www.wildlifehaven.ca/contactus.php

I was assured that they rehab, pigeons that can be rehabbed but do euthanized any that are non releasable. Once you take them a pigeon, their license requires them to keep the bird and not give it back.


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## draykie

Jaye:

The poops, when watery, tend toward an off-white/beige-ish colour and are more lumpy than anything. At their worst, they seem like little more than water with some whiteness in it. They can range from an egg yolk-like consistency to this thin, 95% fluid mixture, but sometimes are viscous and gooey too.

Charis:

Thanks for your hard work in investigating this stuff. I'll keep that veterinary clinic's name in mind in case I ever need them in an emergency. As for the rehab center, I'm just generally very wary of places like those. I've heard so many horror stories about how perfectly rehab-able birds have been given to them, only to be soon euthanized. I have full faith in both of these girls' recoveries; they may not be exactly the same birds they used to be, but I think they'll both do great with a little more time, support, and care. I realize that's also the general consensus of the forum and it's one of the things I love most about it.


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## draykie

Hey all. Here's a pic of what I meant by gooey/egg yolk-y poops:


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## Jaye

That's not horrible...I expected something else.

I am not sure it's coccidiosis (although it could be indicative of a pigeon recovering from coccidiosis). It also doesn't look like renal failure to me. 

I would be inclined to keep going with the tri-sulpha. Once that course is complete (what would it be ?...10 days of it ?)....I would give a day or two rest and then start on a course of Doxycycline for 5 days. Can be ordered online. If you want, I'd be happy to spare some for you. You can PM me with a mailing address and I can send it Int'l Priority Mail from California.

Again....in the absence of any sort of lab work...these are just educated guesses.....


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## draykie

Yeah, I was planning on running her on a course of about 10 days of the TS.

I'd be really appreciative if you could spare some Doxycycline. Can you also give instructions as to how to get it into the bird, how much/how often, etc? Thanks again.


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## draykie

So we've started to feed the girls some finely-chopped, unroasted/unsalted walnuts. The new patient has taken very readily to them, even to the point of 'sorting' her other seeds out of the way to get to them. Now we have two messy patients.


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## draykie

I've started to add some apple cider vinegar to each of the girls' water. Just a few drops to each little bowl. The new patient is still in love with walnuts and I was looking into trying to introduce a few other nuts to their menu; almonds? Pecans? Pine nuts? Are any of these - unroasted, unsalted of course - good for them?

Her poops remain very watery, but she is still eating and drinking well. Her last day of the Triple-Sulfa is tomorrow.


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## Jaye

Never have tried much other than peanuts and almonds with Pigeons. if they are unsalted, sure...they can't hurt. I forgot, it is Martin Luther King Jr. Day today here, so post offices are closed. Will get those meds out to you tom'w AM.

Sounds like they are stable, for sure.

Just curious (sorry if you covered it already)...do you have any safe, indoor space for them to try their wings out ????


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## draykie

Their totes are large enough for them to flap their wings, which they do on a regular basis. Otherwise, no, the place is all windows and fans, and I'm wary of the noise it would create possibly alerting my neighbours as to the presence of the evil pigeon menace in my apartment suite, where they aren't supposed to be. :/

Can you suggest any other foods that can be bought easily at a supermarket/grocery store that would be good for them (ie. nuts, ingredients for cooking like the apple cider vinegar, etc.)? And thanks again for shipping the meds, when you do.


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## Jay3

You can add split peas and lentils and popcorn to the seed. You can try the other nuts you mentioned, but remember that the nuts should be given in moderation and as a treat. Otherwise, they won't eat the seeds they need to be healthy. And too many sunflower seeds can make their poops loose.


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## draykie

Thanks for the answers.

I tried split peas in the past, to no avail. Neither bird seems to particularly enjoy them. The first bird really loves red/orange lentils and they have been getting some of those. I'll try some unpopped, unbuttered/unflavoured popcorn next. Thanks. 

This new patient's starting to develop a little personality with us. While sitting with me out of her box in her towel, I took to rubbing her neck, head, and around her beak, to which she responded by pecking my fingertips lightly and nipping at them. When returned to her tote, she seemed very reluctant to leave the towel, and stood on there quite contently while I petted her some more. Maybe an hour later, her personality had turned right around; an attempt to pet her within her box got a response of two quick bites and a pair of wing slaps.  I think I have a bipolar bird.


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## Jay3

I have pigeons that are very friendly out of their nest box, but if you put a hand in their domain, they will quickly correct you. That is their territory, and they will let you know it! LOL.


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## Bella_F

Hi Draykie,

Good work with the triple Sulfa and giving her good food & ACV in her water.

Strange that her poops are still watery after a full course of Sulfa meds; if the Sulfa is working, I mostly see a dramatic change to poops in the first couple of days. Though it seems that the Sulfa cleared up at least part of her problems doesn't it?

Has she been treated for Canker yet?


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## draykie

She hasn't. What can you treat canker with/how? Jaye is sending me doxycycline soon.


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## Jay3

draykie said:


> She hasn't. What can you treat canker with/how? Jaye is sending me doxycycline soon.


Pigeon supplies have meds for canker, or you can often find Fishzole at places where the sell aquarium fish. It has to be only metronidazole in it though.


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## Jaye

Draykie, I sent you a 'sampler' of meds...there's some Spartrix in there, too... which is for Canker. It's all labeled.


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## draykie

Oh, okay. Great. Thanks so much. Are there instructions available for applying these meds somewhere on the site? If possible, can it be applied via Dobato's pancake syrup suspension method, like the Triple-Sulfa? I just find that way the easiest.

I'm starting to wonder if this new patient is male or female. He/she just seems so much more territorial than the other patient, who I know is female. The other bird will bite if you invade her box, but she has never wing-slapped and doesn't give me the fire-of-hell glare if I get too close to her tote. She will talk, often to ward you off if you enter her tote, but never grunts when released from the towel like an angry little pidge. This one, on the other hand, will fight you tooth and claw if you get too close; wing slaps, bites, pecks, grunting, everything. The neck iridescence isn't unlike the lady pigeon's. Is this just an ornery female or am I dealing with a typical, rough-and-tough male?


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## Dobato

Draykie, the Spartrix will be a small 10mg pill that you will "pop" to the back of the mouth area like in this link; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow .

Karyn


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## Jaye

Hard to tell from behaviour if M or F. They are a bit different, these Pigeons. I have had pals who I swear were M, due to their general full-of-themsleves attitude and demeanor....only to discover layed eggs one day.....

All of the meds have instructions, BTW....


----------



## draykie

Alright, I'll keep an eye out for the mailman. Thanks again, everybody. Will keep you folks updated.


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## draykie

A few pictures to brighten up your day:









Just hangin' out in mah blanket...









It's pretty comfy in here!









Yawn... g'night.


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## TAWhatley

What a sweet looking bird! Thank you for sharing the pics with us!

Terry


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## draykie

He/she appreciates the compliment. 

Unfortunately, the meds still haven't shown up. I hope they didn't get caught up at the border. Jaye might get charged as an illegal drug trafficker...


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## draykie

Heyo.

Meds showed up today. Thanks again, Jaye. We'll start the dosages tomorrow, which I'm sure the birds are overjoyed about.


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## Jaye

Gotta say that took a day or so longer than I expected it to...

Draykie...I am getting confused a bit, here (sorry, probably my own fault). So, can you give us a recap, here ? 

You have 2 Pigeons. One is showing the head-twisting and seed-flinging, while the second one isn't ? The second one is neurologically more normal, but is showing the strange poops. Is that correct ? If so:

The first one (stargazer, head-twister) gets Amoxycillin. 

The second one (odd poops) can do the Doxy and Spartrix tablets. These can be given a few hours apart from one another...there are no adverse interactions between the two drugs.

If using Amoxycillin, you'll need to keep her/him on a course for 7 days.....and remember to shake the liquid suspension up real good each time you use it, as this has a tendency to settle and separate. Oh, also...keep it REFRIGERATED once you mix it. 

If I messed up and that's not the case....straighten me out, please....


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## draykie

Yep, I figured as much and refrigerated it right after mixing it tonight. I'm going to give the amoxy to the PMV-bird and the doxy/spartrix/etc to this bird, given your story about your PMV-bird getting better after dosage with amoxy.


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## Jaye

If the "PMV" bird has been showing those symptoms and it hasn't changed in 3 weeks or so, or it's gotten worse, then the Amoxy is a good guess to try...i.e. it may not be PMV.

The Doxy/Spartrix combo will take care of Canker and also should target any gut issues...so the hope here being her/his poops will start to regularize a bit more and perhaps the excessive drinking will stop....


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## draykie

I should've mentioned, the excessive drinking has righted itself. I guess it was just a case of rediscovering water after nearly dying outside in the cold. However, the watery poops haven't stopped, so I'm rooting for the meds to right that issue, whatever it may be.

PMV-girl has been with us around two months now and still shows the symptoms. She had them for a good 2-3 weeks outside, before we even took her in. Maybe the amoxy's just what she needs.


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## draykie

PMV-lady has gotten her first dosage of amoxy.

This one, on the other hand, is going to be a real issue. I watched the hand-feeding video by cyro51 on YouTube, but this bird is just not having any of it. I finally managed to sneak it into him/her by just putting it in the food dish. Is there something else I can do with the doxy pills to make them easier to give? Mix in water/syrup?


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## Jaye

Does she take peas and corn ? I usually will slip it into a handfeeding of peas and corn...in between a pea and a kernel 

You gotta make sure they swallow it all the way. I have had some patients who appeared to have taken the pill only for me to discover it hadn't made it out of the mouth and down into the crop !


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## draykie

I've managed to get him to just eat it with his food. He doesn't seem to really mind it between his nuts, seeds, and other stuff.


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## draykie

Hi again. The course of amoxy has finished on PMV-lady, but she doesn't really show much improvement. Her head still drags on the ground sometimes when she walks around and, particularly when trying to look at something, she still tends to swing it around and such.

Still continuing with the doxy on the other guy. I didn't see your whole post earlier, Jaye, sorry - yes, the maybe-PMV-bird is the one moving her head around so often and so strangely, while the other bird is the one we most recently found, who has watery poops and, sometimes, a lot of thirst. His thirst has gotten better, but it's still a little excessive when compared to the first pidge.


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## draykie

Scratch that. PMV-bird does seem to show some improvement, but not entirely. Her head is being held up more often now. Unfortunately, the amoxycillin is all gone... I'm wondering if a bit more might have helped.

If I were to order some meds from Jedd's/Foy's, how do they come packaged? I ask because I'm really not meant to be keeping birds where I live and if someone were to see a package come in marked something like 'bird meds', or even 'pigeon supplies'... well, yeah.


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## draykie

Anyone know?


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## Jaye

Good news....so, it may be helping. Try to get some more and dose for another week.

You can do a websearch for Pigeon Supply places in CA, that way it'd be a domestic envelope and nothing would need declaring on the package.

Call these guys...some folks here have recommended them, although their website is downright terrible.

http://pigeonplus.ca/

Maybe this thread will help.....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/anyone-from-the-ottawa-toronto-area-45093.html


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## draykie

Thanks for the reply. I sent them off an e-mail asking about the availability of amoxycillin, price, and how they package their stuff.


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## draykie

I don't know if this really means anything, but the two patients have been sleeping especially well lately. The new guy had taken to running around a lot at night and fluffing his feathers out, particularly around 7am, but for the past few nights, they've been quiet as mice, sleeping very soundly, even if I happen to make noise while I'm in the room. 

Speaking of, here's a shot I captured of the little lady a few days back, which she really didn't seem to mind much.










In fact, she doesn't seem to mind much of anything anymore. I think she believes herself a pet now. I played finger-walking with her the other day while she sat by her food dish (head straight and posture good!). I'd 'walk' my fingers up to her, making little noises all the while, and then dance them over her feet and tickle her belly, and she just stared at me, wondering if I was some escaped nutter from the asylum. Good girl.


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## Jaye

Very cute. What you are looking for is Fish Mox...so it may be that an aquarium supply biz carries that as well. It's just pet-grade Amoxycillin, is all.

...do you have thoughts as to whether you plan to release either of them (providing they recover ?) It sounds like she is getting pretty used to human interaction, which is why I inquire....


----------



## draykie

Thanks again, I'll keep an eye out for Fish Mox if I can't get amoxycillin out of this Canadian supplier.

I'd absolutely love to keep these birds and I am looking for every possibility as to how I can keep them, but I live in an apartment and not only do they not allow pets, they despise pigeons, as you know.  The plan was to release them when they recovered, but it's taken far longer than I expected and it's now -40C outside during both day and night - not the sort of weather I like to put little homeless birds into. I've been trying to find friends or family members with connections to people who own farms and I have at least two leads, but I'm growing quite attached to them.  Devilish little charmers, they are.


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## Jaye

Yes, they are indeed. And I understand your predicament...believe me. In the least, you would have to wait until Spring. It sorta sounds like she is gonna be on the mend....but perhaps not. I JUST released our buddy Hayes on Sunday...she was suffering the same symptoms as your girl there, and she was here for almost 2 months; at certain points I had my doubts but she really seemed to stabilize and get quite hearty the last 10 days. Have you called any Fish supply places ? You should do that...as opposed to waiting for that other place to get back to you.


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## draykie

Anyone wanna' buy me a house so I can keep the little birds? 

I've been looking up and down the whole city for Fish Mox or any form of pet-grade amoxicillin, but several pet store people have told me that there's something of a ban on selling amoxicillin in Canada without a prescription. So I've been trying to find an online Canadian store... and no luck. I'm now trying to contact some American dealers, but if there's a ban on this sort of thing in Canada, I wonder if I'll have any luck there either.


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## Jaye

Can you get something called triple-sulpha anywhere ? Or...does anyone you know have any human antibiotics, perhaps left over ?


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## draykie

Yeah, I do have some. We've given a course of TS to each bird, the lady about a month back, the boy when he first arrived.


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## Jaye

You could go with a course of that.....


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## draykie

Another, for the PMV-girl? It didn't seem to help at all the first time.


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## Jaye

Ah...OK, if no help before, then don't bother.....what you need is the Amoxy.....


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## draykie

I've been trying, but like I said, there just seems to be this block on non-prescribed amoxycillin, even pet-grade stuff, in Canada.


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## Dobato

Draykie, I had a look around and found this site:

http://www.northstardoves.com/Northstar_Doves_2011/Pigeon_Antibiotics.html

The Avivet is an Amoxicillin based med (Amoxicillin + Multivitamins) might do the trick for you if you do not want to order in from the US. They also seem to have a fair amount of other meds that may be useful to know you could get, (without worring about border issues), if you needed them.

Karyn


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## draykie

Sweet. Thanks so much for finding that. To avoid the packaging issue, I'm going to get them to send it to a close friend of mine's address and pick it up from her at work when it arrives. Are there any other meds on that website that you recommend for the birds, given their symptoms? I've still got some of the ronisel/spartrix to go through on the boy.


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## Dobato

Draykie, there are a few meds they have, which I consider to be "must haves". In their Candida section "Medistatin" for candida/"sour crop issues", in their Antibiotics section "Doxybird" for respiratory infections and other infections where a tetracycline based antibiotic would be the drug of choice and in the Canker section "Meditrich" which is Metronidazole, which is not only a first choice drug for canker, but a first choice medicine in many anaerobic infections and in their De-worming section they have Mediworm, which is a Pyrantel Pamoate based de-wormer, which is both a gentle and effective med. You don't have to get them all at once, but if you are doing rescues on an ongoing basis, which it seems your are, these meds would be good to have on hand.

Karyn


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## Jaye

Thanks for chiming in, Dobato !!!!


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## draykie

Hey all. Have ordered the meds and waiting on that. Until then... picture time!









Standin' tall on the towel.









Here's lookin' at you.


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## Jaye

She looks good overall....keep it up and try another course of Amoxy, run it maybe 10 days....


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## draykie

That one there is the boy, who's currently getting that ronisel stuff you sent me. Peculiar thing about him is how he behaves when handled. He's incredibly tame. As you can see in those pics, he isn't wrapped up in his towel at all, but is merely resting on the lap upon a towel. He eats from our hands (with some hesitation) and has no problems drinking or eating out of a dish placed near him when he's out of his box. It's like he was handled in the past. Whatever it is, it's very endearing.


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## draykie

Meds came in the mail today. I got some random home supplement powder with them, too... not sure why.

In other news, here's the info on the Avivet amoxycillin powder:

Amoxycillin 40g
Vit A 2000 I U
Vit E 20 mg
Vit K3 2 mg
Vit C 20 mg
Vit B1 2 mg
Vit B2 10 mg
Vit B6 2 mg
Niacin 20 mg
Vit B12 4.8 mg

How much should I mix to how much water? There are directions on the bottle, but they're for dosing a whole litre of water, and... well, that isn't really close to how I was dosing her with the amoxy capsules Jaye sent me. I'd rather have a more concentrated dose that she can take daily. Is there some way to work this dosage out?


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## draykie

heeeeeeeeeeeeeeey.


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## draykie

Long time no see.

The little boy has turned into quite a crazy bird. He's stronger than ever and has escaped from his box once and from being toweled once too. He spends about three hours a day trying to escape his box (which we have made quite impossible now). Now if only his poops get better, he'll be ready to go in spring. I have seen some more solidity in his poops - let's hope that trend continues.

As for the girl... still no big change. She's healthy in every way except for her PMV-like symptoms. I've literally tried everything I'm supposed to... Avivet, amoxicillin, TS, waiting it out, but it's been about half a year now and nothing.


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## Dobato

Draykie, I am sorry I missed you post asking for help on concentrating down the dose on the Amoxicillin you ordered, if you still need some help I would be happy to help you out with this.

Here is a post with a comment from Feefo, who has a good deal of experience with PPMV birds, about the consistency of their droppings post infection. It seems some have droppings return to a "normal" form and some don't, as a result of latent damage from the virus.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=551712&postcount=34

Good luck with them,

Karyn


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## draykie

I decided just to follow the directions on the container and have been diluting it with their drinking water. It seems to have somehow really given the male a lot of energy, but has done nothing for the female who we believed to have PMV to begin with... is there something that can be done for her? I don't think it's PMV after this long with no change. I tried the amoxycillin capsules Jaye sent me, thinking it might be salmonella, or that maybe it might help directly with the PMV itself, but... nothing.

On the male, though he acts like he's in excellent shape and really seems like he is, he is also having problems keeping weight on him. Unlike the female, who is quite healthy and plump, his breast bone is very easily felt and he is considerably lighter than she has ever been. I wouldn't hesitate to release him if not for those two issues - the poops and the weight.


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## Dobato

Draykie, might be best with the male to monitor him more closely, in terms of keeping track of his exact weight, if possible, as when concerned about body mass, close tracking of the trend in weight will help allow you do make adjustments in care and treatment to address any concerns. It would be good to know his exact weight, to see where he is at.

Is he eating well, outside of being loose, do they contain a good amount of solid fecal matter, do you have Tripe-Sulfa on hand, if so has he every been treated with it, did you order, or do you have a de-wormer on hand?

Karyn


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## draykie

I'm not really sure if it'd be possible to weigh him properly. Give him even a little wiggle room and he runs and flies for it.

He eats at a regular pace. Maybe a few times a day. The female eats every hour or so just because she can. His stools are starting to look a little better, with some bits of solid matter in them. He's getting vitamin supplements in his food and ACV in his water. He was treated with TS when he first came to us, but nothing seemed to change. I don't have a de-wormer, nor have I ordered one.


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## Dobato

draykie said:


> I'm not really sure if it'd be possible to weigh him properly. Give him even a little wiggle room and he runs and flies for it.


Draykie, when they are like this, what is most times done is that they are placed in a small box and weighed, then the box is weighed alone and and subtracted from the first gross weight to get a net weight. Many times when ill they will have a few issues going on with them, but if he was treated over 5 days with the TS, then we can think less about coccidiosis, but still have to consider worms could be an issue. 

Also, when like this, a light bird who is not really where we would want them to be, IMO, it becomes pretty important to closely track and monitor their weight each day, doing this first thing in the morning, so we try and get an accuatre weight. (before they eat and drink, so we are not weighing food and water). Walmart has pretty cheap digital kitchen scales, especially when they go on sale, perhaps you could check around and see if you could find a deal on one (if you don't have one already).

You can also try feeding him things they generally can't resist, like raw unsalted sunflower hearts, safflower seeds and broken/cut up small pieces of raw, unsalted Spanish peanuts to see if you can get a bit more weight on him. But do see if you can get some firm, objective numbers on him for weight. if you can manage as well.

Karyn


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## draykie

I'll try to scrounge up something to put him in and weigh him. I do have a kitchen scale that I can use.

He does get a steady diet of raw, unsalted, unshelled sunflower seeds, which he loves. There are some safflower seeds mixed in with his pigeon mix, but he doesn't seem to like them too much. Haven't tried peanuts. That is why it mystified me a bit - he eats the sunflower seeds non-stop and still seems quite light.

He has always had a bit of a weird beak though, in comparison to our little female. It has a very slight hook at the end of it, which I read might be a sign of canker, but he's been treated with canker meds.


----------



## Jaye

The only way you can ascertain what's up with the female is with a vet exam and probably several tests at this point. I think we have taken our most educated guesses and treated accordingly....

A blood panel (either a general "cbc" or maybe a protein-electrophorysis type), fecal panel, x-rays.....these would be the next things to do. But they are pricey....

The male...again, educated guesses would say try a wormer (Ivermectin) and an anti-coccidial (Appartex). But once again, sans an exam these are educated guesses based upon the most common ailments and resemblances....


----------



## Dobato

Draykie, with the beak, it's not that uncommon for for the beak to hook a bit over, this can be remedied with a emery file. I have heard a few reasons for this from lack of natural wear from not pecking against hard ground, to genetic disposition, to injury, to illness affecting the growth rate/pattern. I know for me, it's really helpful when I am helping out in a thread if the person can get up photos of the issues they have concerns with. If you could get up a few clear, clear close-up photos, of this little guy in profile, his beak area and his fresh droppings, it would be helpful.

If it's in the budget, and if you can find a vet to do it, you may want run at least one fairly inexpensive test, a fecal float on him. There are some vets that will do this test, without having to see the animal and it does not have to be an avian specialist, as the same cocci, round worm eggs and thread worm eggs that infect pigeons also infect a number of other animals, both pet and farm, should cost $20-40. Call around and see if there is someone who could help you out.

Just thought I would remind you that the place I linked before does carry a few de-wormers. You might want to go with Medpet's Mediworm, that contains Pyrantel Pamoate (they made a misspelling in their ad), a very gentle de-wormer and the pills have 20mg, but I would give 1/2 a pill (10mg), which would be more in line with the dosing I myself would use.

http://www.northstardoves.com/Northstar_Doves_2011/Pigeon_Deworming.html

Karyn


----------



## draykie

I'll look into getting a fecal sample done at the vet for both birds, and I'll try to get a pic up of the male's beak as soon as I can. I work all day today, so I won't be with the birds, but soon.

Taking the birds in to the vet won't be possible. They do not treat pigeons unless they're pets, and I don't have the bands for their legs to prove they are pets, nor can I logically do this... having to supply my address to the vet would be rather silly if I wanted to continue hiding the little ones.  I'll see what I can do, though.


----------



## Dobato

See what you can do about getting a fecal run, at least on the male to start, and getting the photos and a weight up for him, and we'll see if anything can be gleaned from this extra information (try the peanuts as well, cut/break into smaller pieces  ).

Karyn


----------



## Jaye

I think perhaps there's caution, and overcaution. Would veterenarians really try to 'out' a client ? If so, to who exactly ? Bands can be purchased online quite easily and are easy to snap on and later remove.

Just something to keep in mind. Trust me, I understand renting and being a Pigeon advocate/friend simultaneously is a tricky balancing act and is fraught with issues. But it could come the day when, really, a vet exam is the only reasonable option. Denying it should not be the result of thinking you are going to get turned in.
Unless I misunderstand something about laws in Canada, it isn't illegal to keep and treat an injured Feral, is it ?

....just something to think about.

Anyway, good on the fecal, keep us posted.


----------



## draykie

Gave the vet a call and the receptionist said that an in-clinic fecal test will be around $45, while a lab test would be more yet. She also suggested a 'crop swab' or something if the fecal doesn't show anything. My next day off is Sunday, so I'll be bringing in a poo for the vet from the male then.


----------



## Dobato

draykie said:


> Gave the vet a call and the receptionist said that an in-clinic fecal test will be around $45, while a lab test would be more yet. She also suggested a 'crop swab' or something if the fecal doesn't show anything. My next day off is Sunday, so I'll be bringing in a poo for the vet from the male then.


OK, we'll wait and see if anything turns up in his droppings. A swab test will look for pathogenic organisms in his throat and crop area, bacteria, protozoa, yeast/fungus. Let's see what the droppings show and then decide on any further testing.

What about his weight?

Karyn


----------



## draykie

Haven't been able to get to my preferred avian vet quite yet, but here's a pic of his beak:










I know it's not too bad, but there's still a hook on there and... well, yeah.


----------



## Dobato

Draykie, yes, not too bad, as mentioned, a few passes with an emery board should put things back in line in short order. 

Karyn


----------



## draykie

Hey guys. Looking for ideas here.

We've been trying to rehome these birds. My aunt said she would allow us to construct a shed in her yard to keep them in, with an aviary built on, but only after we've already purchased and constructed the shed have we discovered that some archaic city by-laws have rules specifically and only for pigeons that all construction must be pre-approved by government officials under zoning guidelines, they must be X number of feet away from the neighbour's property, a permit must be issued annually, and a bunch of other stupid things. Two small birds like this should never need so much legal attention, but there you go.

It's become clear we need to consider other options. Keeping them in the apartment is not an option due to strict no-pets (and adamant anti-pigeon mentality) regulation. None of my other friends or relatives want them. Releasing them may not be an option at all due to lasting damage from bouts of PPMV. Any ideas?


----------



## Dobato

draykie said:


> Hey guys. Looking for ideas here.
> 
> We've been trying to rehome these birds. My aunt said she would allow us to construct a shed in her yard to keep them in, with an aviary built on, but only after we've already purchased and constructed the shed have we discovered that some archaic city by-laws have rules specifically and only for pigeons that all construction must be pre-approved by government officials under zoning guidelines, they must be X number of feet away from the neighbour's property, a permit must be issued annually, and a bunch of other stupid things. Two small birds like this should never need so much legal attention, but there you go.
> 
> It's become clear we need to consider other options. Keeping them in the apartment is not an option due to strict no-pets (and adamant anti-pigeon mentality) regulation. None of my other friends or relatives want them. Releasing them may not be an option at all due to lasting damage from bouts of PPMV. Any ideas?


Well, to me, it would depend on how far away your aunt is from the neighbors property and how cool she is with them, as they would be the ones to complain, as I don't see city officials looking for a small bird shed unless they received complaints, this may be a place to start. If it's just two birds, not even flying around pooping on peoples cars, I see no reason why them living there would raise a red flag, and worse case a small fine and then having to apply for a permit perhaps, since keeping them is legal.

Karyn


----------



## draykie

Dobato said:


> Well, to me, it would depend on how far away your aunt is from the neighbors property and how cool she is with them, as they would be the ones to complain, as I don't see city officials looking for a small bird shed unless they received complaints, this may be a place to start. If it's just two birds, not even flying around pooping on peoples cars, I see no reason why them living there would raise a red flag, and worse case a small fine and then having to apply for a permit perhaps, since keeping them is legal.
> 
> Karyn


Her neighbour is a complete lunatic who traps random animals that wander onto her property (squirrels, raccoons, etc) and kills them. The by-law pretty clearly outlines all these silly hoops that we need to leap through just to keep two birds enclosed in a shed. It's an obviously huge money grab, but... it's the law, too.


----------



## Dobato

draykie said:


> Her neighbour is a complete lunatic who traps random animals that wander onto her property (squirrels, raccoons, etc) and kills them. The by-law pretty clearly outlines all these silly hoops that we need to leap through just to keep two birds enclosed in a shed. It's an obviously huge money grab, but... it's the law, too.


That's really too bad, as most times, issues only arise with other people's pets when people feel they are infringing on their enjoyment of their property. Whether it be barking dogs, or with our guys, landing and pooping on a neighbor's property. Since this would not be an issue with your two birds, it's a shame she has what sounds to be an idiot for a neighbor.

Karyn


----------



## draykie

Well... we don't really have anymore viable options right now, so we're going to try to hide them for another year or two until we can save up to get a house and then hopefully keep them as house-pets. We are also looking into buying a cat carrier so each bird can take turns coming outside and spending time on the balcony with us now and again.

I decided to offer the birds some toys because they seemed to be getting very restless lately. First they both got Q-tips to throw around... not a big hit. Then they both got mirrors. The male isn't too impressed with his... spends more time knocking it over or attacking it than enjoying it. The female, however, is completely smitten with hers. She has stopped her spinning around entirely during the day and now contently sits in front of the mirror and admires her reflection until it's bedtime, only taking breaks to poop and get refreshments now and then. So we went to the dollar store and got her an even bigger mirror as a surprise gift... she now takes the time to look at her own butt in it, turn sideways, and watch herself endlessly. Narcissus has reincarnated...


----------



## Jaye

Thanks for providing for your pals. Something will likely come up, oftentimes it does. But best to assume, as you have, that you are their providers now. Nice job on both rescues, BTW.

The world needs more people like you folks.


----------



## draykie

Thanks... I feel the best policy to any living critter is openness and kindness, not paranoia and hatred. I wish more people felt the same way.

Any idea what could occupy the little fella? The female's perfectly (really perfectly) content with her mirror. The male feels like being held every 20-30 minutes... great for him and all, but gets kind of cumbersome during the day.


----------



## draykie

Photoshoot today! This is Nibbler (the male) on his third jaunt outside the tote today... looking quite smart in a few different perspectives and colour schemes.


----------



## Birdsong

If she isn't eating or drinking that could be stress, but she could also have internal chancre. I lost a bird once to that when I didn't know about it.


----------



## draykie

Hey guys, long time no type.

Things are going well. The female is quite robust (maybe overly so) and the male is steadily getting portlier. He seems to think my roommate is his mate, as whenever he's around, talks, or so much as makes a familiar noise (the clacking of his computer chair, for example), Nibbler starts doing low, communicating coos... hoooo, hooo, hooooo, hoo... he will do this intermittently over and over until he finally gets picked up and cuddled into a towel. :/ Spoiled bird.

Only problem with this situation is that he's adapted to keep his surroundings (his tote box) clean by demanding to be picked up when he has to poop. Now unfortunately, he still has this watery poo dilemma, so when he poops in the blanket, it's like a shotgun blast. Shirts, pants, and many many towels have been totally ruined by the Nibblergun. Any workaround to this spoiled bird's habits?


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## Jaye

Interesting....he is, then (in a sense) sorta 'toilet trained'...although I dunno if that's a negative or positive necessarily (?)

Runny poops...but he seems healthy and eats fine and all ? I am not gonna go back and investigate the other 128 posts on this thread now, but...at anytime did you ever try an anti-coccidial treatment such as Appartex (clazuril) ?

Or added a probiotic to his diet ?

Although quite honestly...I have had a couple of Pigeon pals who exhibited this and after pulling my hair out and trying every med, and giving most available lab tests (all of which ended up showing nothing)..I just let 'em be and they are doing quite OK.


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## draykie

Jaye said:


> Interesting....he is, then (in a sense) sorta 'toilet trained'...although I dunno if that's a negative or positive necessarily (?)
> 
> Runny poops...but he seems healthy and eats fine and all ? I am not gonna go back and investigate the other 128 posts on this thread now, but...at anytime did you ever try an anti-coccidial treatment such as Appartex (clazuril) ?
> 
> Or added a probiotic to his diet ?
> 
> Although quite honestly...I have had a couple of Pigeon pals who exhibited this and after pulling my hair out and trying every med, and giving most available lab tests (all of which ended up showing nothing)..I just let 'em be and they are doing quite OK.


Well, it'd be a great toilet training method if he was free-running, but... he's not, and he's just causing me a lot of laundry woes, lol.

Yeah, he's perfectly fine other than the runny poops and his feathers don't really repel water very well like my female's do. He doesn't seem to have much of that powdery stuff in his feathers. But he eats very well, poops well (except for the runniness), and is extremely vocal about what he wants (pick me up NOW... cooooo! Wake me up NOW... cooo, cooooo!).

I've tried amoxycillin, vitamins, and all the meds you sent me to no change on either bird. What sort of probiotic would you suggest and how to apply it? I'm almost ready to just chalk both these birds' lasting symptoms on PMV complications, as this little guy also exhibited PMV-like head spinning when he first came to us (something he no longer does).


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## draykie

Nibbler was celebrating the Russian culture with us this morning... da, comrade!


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## Crazy bird lady

He is too cute.. What a character


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