# Just For Fun!



## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

Just For Fun! 
How Many Pigeons Do You Keep?
and, What Size is your Loft?
I was just wondering, what the average number would be, For the Average Pigeon Hobbiest. 
I Know, Good luck figuring that one out!


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

The more the merrier (pigeons) - 
The bigger the better (loft) -


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## bcr1 (Jun 9, 2009)

Right now I have a 4 foot by 6 foot loft with 8 pigeons in it. I am going to make the loft another 4 foot longer next year though.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

My loft is 8X10. I have 20 birds. I have rescues, so that could change a little at times, if I take one in who has no where to go, or if anyone is released. I try to keep it at about that number though, as overcrowding is unhealthy for the birds.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

*That's easy! Well kinda...*

I just moved from NH to Maine, so I had to build a new loft and move ALL birds
I was finally able to get a head count---67 Homers and Tumblers, 15 American Fantails = 82 Birds Total
The loft is a converted garden shed - 8' X 10' with a 12' peak inside, and the flight cage is 8' X 10'
For the time being my fantails are in large dog crates in the flight cage until I build them a new loft.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Waynette, it looks really cute with all the flowers and all, it turned out great, but all those birds....................................

Maybe we should take up a collection and buy lots of wooden eggs for Waynette. Just a suggestion.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Waynette, it looks really cute with all the flowers and all, it turned out great, but all those birds....................................
> 
> Maybe we should take up a collection and buy lots of wooden eggs for Waynette. Just a suggestion.


Yes yes yes!!
I'm going to get more (wooden eggs), I can't have any more 
They multiply so fast without even realizing it.
I switched 15 eggs yesterday!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well with 76, you're gonna need LOTS of eggs. Good luck! I have a hard enough time keeping up with the 20 I have. LOL.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

wynette, that pigeon cottage is just adorable! they must love it.


I have a 8x16 with 25 homers and 4 figuritas. and an 8x7 with a 8x7 flight aviary, with 4 jacobins and 6 white frillbacks and two capuchines


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Well, the number of pigeons varries drasticly depending on the time of the year. Right after young bird season and before breeding starts it is as low as 60-80. After breeding season is over and before racing begins, it can be as high as 200-250.

I have an 820 square foot loft. Many of you have seen it on other posts.

Dan


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## grau geist (Jan 17, 2009)

I have 25 homers in a 8x4 loft  Is that to many? There is more perches than there is birds, a nice avery. Overcrowded?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

grau geist said:


> I have 25 homers in a 8x4 loft  Is that to many? There is more perches than there is birds, a nice avery. Overcrowded?


yeah, if you go by the 2ft square per bird rule. I have an 8x4 section and have it open to another section and only 8 birds will roost in there at night which seems to be the right amount. I could not imagine all my 25 in that one section....too crowded IMO.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

learning said:


> Well, the number of pigeons varries drasticly depending on the time of the year. Right after young bird season and before breeding starts it is as low as 60-80. After breeding season is over and before racing begins, it can be as high as 200-250.
> 
> I have an 820 square foot loft. Many of you have seen it on other posts.
> 
> ...


Holy toledo Batman! that is huge!!!!!!!!!!!


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## brandonf (Jul 26, 2009)

grau geist said:


> I have 25 homers in a 8x4 loft  Is that to many? There is more perches than there is birds, a nice avery. Overcrowded?



i have 14 homers and 6 fantails in my loft that is that size, although some ppl would differ, i dont think that my birds are over crowded in any way at all. my i have no nest boxes in my loft so there isnt any breeding goin on, with the exception of my fantails, them suckers will breed anywhere lol


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

well here is a bit from an article from old Hand and racing pigeon basics it makes sense to me.

As I have said before, too many fanciers who want to be ‘small fanciers’ either for economic or other reasons try to implement their ambition by erecting tiny lofts. This is false economy. A loft costs comparatively little to keep regardless of its size. The fancier’s expenses are heaviest in the direction of food, training and club and race fees, etc. Therefore, all those new starters who are contemplating the erection of a loft should discard any idea they might have for a ‘small’ structure. Keep a small number of birds by all means, but give them as much room as possible. 

If you can afford to keep only a dozen pigeons put up a loft not less than 15ft long by 7-8ft wide. Put a corridor through the front of it (end to end) and partition off the remainder into small sections formed by wire mesh on frames. Let each breeding pair have two very large nestboxes and see that every bird in the loft has the choice of three perches. Flyaways in such conditions are almost impossible. Infectious diseases in such a loft, containing only six pairs of birds, will be a rarity; so will fighting, while the fertility rate of eggs should be near 90% / l00%, always supposing that the loft is given four-wall ventilation. 

If every fancier went to his loft now and reduced his numbers by 30% at least, the remainder of his birds would immediately betray better form and fitness. They would be happier, satisfied in their environment, livelier, longer lived.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I have a 8 X 16 OB loft with 22 birds. 11 cocks and 11 hens
I have a 20 X 28 big loft that houses breeders and YB's. Right now I have "about" 15 pairs of breeders and before this morning, I had 43 YB's. After a 22 mile training toss, I'm down to 17 at the moment.........


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

learning said:


> Well, the number of pigeons varries drasticly depending on the time of the year. Right after young bird season and before breeding starts it is as low as 60-80. After breeding season is over and before racing begins, it can be as high as 200-250.
> 
> I have an 820 square foot loft. Many of you have seen it on other posts.
> 
> ...


Wow! I haven't seen it, but I'd sure like to. It looks great.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Spiritwings, that was good information. You should always build the biggest loft you can, and that you have room for, because the more room you give your birds, there is less fighting, and less dust for them to breath in. And disease doesn't spread as easily. 8X10 was the largest I could fit where I wanted it, but I'm always wishing that it were larger. Mybe it's just as well, because if I had bigger, I'd probably have more birds. They keep me pretty busy now.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Renee, I hope they make it home.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Well, with the 2 foot rule per bird I'm just right! But that's including the fantails. Can't have anymore - or at least not until I move the fantails into their own loft.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Waynette, it looks really cute with all the flowers and all, it turned out great, but all those birds....................................
> 
> Maybe we should take up a collection and buy lots of wooden eggs for Waynette. Just a suggestion.


Not just a collection for wooden eggs but an addition to the shed too!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Well, with the 2 foot rule per bird I'm just right! But that's including the fantails. Can't have anymore - or at least not until I move the fantails into their own loft.


It's not 2 feet per bird, it's 2 sqare feet. 2 feet each way.


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

8ft by 12ft 
40ish birds?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeon lower said:


> 8ft by 12ft
> 40ish birds?


No. More like 24, if you want to keep them healthy.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> No. More like 24, if you want to keep them healthy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

So, according to Lokotas article, for birds the size of racing homers, if you want to go by the 1 1/2 sq. ft., it would be 32 birds at the most, for an 8X12. I'd rather go by the 2 ft., and give them more room and air.
Thanks for the information Lokotaloft.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> So, according to Lokotas article, for birds the size of racing homers, if you want to go by the 1 1/2 sq. ft., it would be 32 birds at the most, for an 8X12. I'd rather go by the 2 ft., and give them more room and air.
> Thanks for the information Lokotaloft.


you would hate my loft lol I have at least 40 adopted birds on top of the other 100 that I keep  with all the needy birds out there its hard to squeeze them all into places they are welcome thou


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> you would hate my loft lol I have at least 40 adopted birds on top of the other 100 that I keep  with all the needy birds out there its hard to squeeze them all into places they are welcome thou


How big is your loft?

I'm not saying that I will NEVER go over what should be, as far as numbers. I just try not to. It just isn't healthy for them. They get sick a lot easier. And lets face it, they get along a lot better if they're not over crowded.


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> No. More like 24, if you want to keep them healthy.


Lol your funny .. With my calculations i can keep 48, ... So reallly i dont know why this thread was created but if your going to judge ever single persons loft n amount of birds.. People shouldnt even bother posting here.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Jay3 said:


> Wow! I haven't seen it, but I'd sure like to. It looks great.


Here is a picture of the loft.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11164&d=1230467777


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeon lower said:


> Lol your funny .. With my calculations i can keep 48, ... So reallly i dont know why this thread was created but if your going to judge ever single persons loft n amount of birds.. People shouldnt even bother posting here.


Well, you're the one who asked how many birds for that amount of space. I just answered you with what the amount of birds should be for that space. I also added, that according to Lokotalofts article on it, that if you wanted to go with the 1 1/2 square feet per bird, that 32 would be the Max for your size loft. I don't see that as judging anyone. If you wish to pack them in like sardines, then that is your business. I was just answering your question. No one is judging you, Many people are not aware of how much space is needed to keep healthy birds. That's often the first question they ask. So, going by the guidelines, that's how many you should keep in that space. No one is saying that you have to. And I didn't make the guidelines. Don't shoot the messenger.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Pigeon lower said:


> Lol your funny .. With my calculations i can keep 48, ... So reallly i dont know why this thread was created but if your going to judge ever single persons loft n amount of birds.. People shouldnt even bother posting here.


true ,as long as your not hording and breeding like a puppy mill I think most can squeeze in a few more


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

Okay i never asked how many birds i could have in it. My dad went by my calculations when he raised/raced homers.. K then if you do ur calculations differently then how do you do it in cubic square.. Even though i really dont care because im going with what i want.. 8x12x6.5=624/12=52 birds that way for me.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

learning said:


> Here is a picture of the loft.
> 
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11164&d=1230467777


Okay. I've seen this one. The Taj Mahal for Pigeons. Breathtaking! I had just forgotten who it belonged to. Good Lord, are your birds lucky! Absolutely beautiful.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeon lower said:


> Okay i never asked how many birds i could have in it. My dad went by my calculations when he raised/raced homers.. K then if you do ur calculations differently then how do you do it in cubic square.. Even though i really dont care because im going with what i want.. 8x12x6.5=624/12=52 birds that way for me.


The guidelines are AT LEAST 1 1/2 or 2 square feet of FLOOR space. Doesn' t matter how high it is. No one is saying you have to go by the guidelines. It is just better for your birds well being if you do. Read the article that Lokotaloft posted.


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## grau geist (Jan 17, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> The guidelines are AT LEAST 1 1/2 or 2 square feet of FLOOR space.


Okay, so if my loft is 8' long 4' wide, that is 32 square feet. Divide that by 2 and that is 16 square feet. So I should only have 16 birds for the size of my loft?

Edit: if you divide 32 by 1.5 that is 21 birds. So am I over by that much were they would be over crowded?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

grau geist said:


> Okay, so if my loft is 8' long 4' wide, that is 32 square feet. Divide that by 2 and that is 16 square feet. So I should only have 16 birds for the size of my loft?
> 
> Edit: if you divide 32 by 1.5 that is 21 birds. So am I over by that much were they would be over crowded?


At 2 sq. feet of floor space per bird, you should have 8. At 1 1/2 sq. feet of floor space, you should have 10 birds. 
I think most people have way more than what the guidelines say are healthy. But these guidelines were made for a reason.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeon lower said:


> Okay i never asked how many birds i could have in it.



You never asked? Sounded like a question. 


Pigeon lower 
Matriarch Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Woodstock, Ontario
Age: 16
Posts: 680 

8ft by 12ft 
40ish birds?
__________________


http://community.webshots.com/user/P...host=community

http://tylerweening.piczo.com/?g=1&cr=1

Old Classic Frill Breeder


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

grau geist said:


> Okay, so if my loft is 8' long 4' wide, that is 32 square feet. Divide that by 2 and that is 16 square feet. So I should only have 16 birds for the size of my loft?
> 
> Edit: if you divide 32 by 1.5 that is 21 birds. So am I over by that much were they would be over crowded?


8X4 is 32 square feet, but you must divide by 4 to get 2 square feet. Hard to explain.
You are dividing by 2.
2 square feet means 2 feet in each direction. That's actually 4 feet. 1 1/2 SQUARE feet, means 1 1/2 feet in both directions.


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## grau geist (Jan 17, 2009)

Jay, I am trying to figure this out. If you draw a diagram with 32 equal size squares in it, color every 2 squares a different color, or draw a line through two squares at a time, I come up with 16 birds/colors/lines. I think your math is giving you 4 sq ft. per bird witch gives you 8 birds???


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## grau geist (Jan 17, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> 8' long and 4'wide is 32 feet. NOT 32 square feet.
> 
> You are dividing by 2.
> 2 square feet means 2 feet in each direction. That's actually 4 feet. 1 1/2 SQUARE feet, means 1 1/2 feet in both directions.



There is 32 sq. ft. in a piece of 4x8 ply wood. 

But I understand now that 2 sq. ft. is in both directions  oops.

Guess I am a bit over crowded. I will try and find some homes for the birds that haven't flown from my loft yet.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

grau geist said:


> Jay, I am trying to figure this out. If you draw a diagram with 32 equal size squares in it, color every 2 squares a different color, or draw a line through two squares at a time, I come up with 16 birds/colors/lines. I think your math is giving you 4 sq ft. per bird witch gives you 8 birds???



2 square feet means 2 feet in each direction. It has to be square. 2 feet top to bottom, and 2 feet left to right. Square.
It is 4 feet. Not 4 square feet.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you take two floor tiles which are 1 square foot each, and put them side by side, you don't have two square feet. You have 2 feet in one direction, and 1 foot in the other direction. 2 SQUARE feet, means 2 feet in both directions.
That's why it is square feet. It has to be square. 2ft X 2 ft.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

grau geist said:


> There is 32 sq. ft. in a piece of 4x8 ply wood.
> 
> But I understand now that 2 sq. ft. is in both directions  oops.
> 
> Guess I am a bit over crowded. I will try and find some homes for the birds that haven't flown from my loft yet.


I think you are the only one who gets it! Congratulations. It took me a while too! Thank you for trying to understand what I was saying. It is hard to explain.

You could always add a little to the existing loft. LOL. I don't think most people are ever happy with the size of their loft. I know I'm not. I'm pretty sure Learning is. Did you see his loft? I could live in it. I won't let my birds see it, or they'd be packing their bags to move in with him.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I get it! 

Great article LokotaLoft!


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Jay the problem is you thinking in 2 feet squared not 2 square feet like they are saying , thats why if you look at what they said a 6 x 8 foot loft = 48 ft sq ft. divid that bye 1.5 and you can hold can hold 32birds if it was 2 ft it would be 24 birds or as they put it 4x6=24sq ft. divided by 1.5 = 16 or divided by 2ft. which would = 12


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## seanG (May 30, 2009)

ok so mine is 8x12 and i have 45 birds is that good


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

if its homers 8x 12= 96sq ft. so divided by 1.5 would be 64 birds and if you went by the 2 sq.ft. it would be 48 so yes your in the green lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> I get it!
> 
> Great article LokotaLoft!


STOP IT !!! LOL.


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Wow! reading all the responses, MAN DO I feel like a 'squab'  I have 8 pij'z...4 of whom are paired...loft dimensions: will post soon[gotta get the measuring tape..see album for idea] no eggs yet  'nest box'..??...does that mean they wont lay eggs other wise?. Mine are quiet young, [was a bit disheartened @ that news..] => some months before eggs. Truth be told, I just want them to get to a stage where I can let them out in the early morn., feed them...relax a bit with them, then let them fly around all day..[I'm out at work during day, classes sometimes in evenings]I only want homers and such...I'm not comfertable with keeping birds confined. Some of the loft pics are awesome, [esp. Waynette][ @ _learning: wow~_ Oh!..sorry, I think they are homers,tipplers etc. I have asked u all for helping me identify the types so I can read about its particular care. Just a newbie who wants to see happy birds in the morn. an at nite...fly be free....Thanks 2 all for the great info. Peace.


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> I think you are the only one who gets it! Congratulations. It took me a while too! Thank you for trying to understand what I was saying. It is hard to explain.
> 
> You could always add a little to the existing loft. LOL. I don't think most people are ever happy with the size of their loft. I know I'm not. I'm pretty sure Learning is. Did you see his loft? I could live in it. I won't let my birds see it, or they'd be packing their bags to move in with him.


~LOL~ I live in 1 of the most {in top 3} densely populated cities on EARTH [Dhaka, Bangladesh] 'the Taj Mahal' nicely put man  ..."my birds would pack their bags...." LOLZZZZZZZ u tellin' Me! I PERSONALLY know about 50 [!] HUMAN FAMILIES that would KILL for a house like that loft. well done. even the setting is idylic...hope You/your birds r happy..Peace.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Just for everyone's info, the formula for figuring square footage is length X width. This gives you the square footage. An area 8 feet by 4 feet has 32 square feet in it. 2 square feet per bird would give you 16 birds in that space.

However you figure it you have to decide what works for you.

Dan


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm SOOO confused! I hate math. I have 160 sq. feet of loft/flightcage space (8 X 10 and 8 X 10) with 67 birds in it. They don't look crowded at all!
I really think you can take height into account considering that you have perches, platforms and table space giving it multilevels. But I definitely can't have any more!
See what happens when you fall in love with them


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Jay3 said:


> Okay. I've seen this one. The Taj Mahal for Pigeons. Breathtaking! I had just forgotten who it belonged to. Good Lord, are your birds lucky! Absolutely beautiful.


Well, it's certainly not the Taj Mahal but, so far, it is serving my needs.

Thank You

Dan


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> I'm SOOO confused! I hate math. I have 160 sq. feet of loft/flightcage space (8 X 10 and 8 X 10) with 67 birds in it. They don't look crowded at all!
> I really think you can take height into account considering that you have perches, platforms and table space giving it multilevels. But I definitely can't have any more!
> See what happens when you fall in love with them


MsFreebird basically what they are saying is take your total square footage and divid that in half and thats your alloted amount of birds you can keep in that much space ... 160sq ft. divided by 2 equals 80 see how easy that is lol


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

learning said:


> Here is a picture of the loft.
> 
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11164&d=1230467777


That is AWESOME!
Can I interest you in a "house swap" in Maine? LOL


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> Jay the problem is you thinking in 2 feet squared not 2 square feet like they are saying , thats why if you look at what they said a 6 x 8 foot loft = 48 ft sq ft. divid that bye 1.5 and you can hold can hold 32birds if it was 2 ft it would be 24 birds or as they put it 4x6=24sq ft. divided by 1.5 = 16 or divided by 2ft. which would = 12


Thank you Lokota. It was explained to me the way I am saying it by a couple of different people. According to this then, I could have 40 birds. Wow! Well, at least now how you figure it is clear. 
Still sounds like a lot of birds in a space to me.  I prefer less, but at least I understand. Thank you.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> MsFreebird basically what they are saying is take your total square footage and divid that in half and thats your alloted amount of birds you can keep in that much space ... 160sq ft. divided by 2 equals 80 see how easy that is lol


Well that's what *I* thought, but that's not what their saying 
As long as my birds are happy and healthy - that's all I care


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

well a square foot is 144 inches squared 12x 12 so your way would be 4 square feet or 576 inches squared 12x12x4 of floor space for birds if you go by what they told you ...we all know more space is better but as they say in the pigeon world **it happens lol


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I was reading and this fanciers goes by perch space only...LOL...as long as he has more perches than birds he thinks he's fine. I know when Iam getting close to full for me when scraping the floor can be done twice a day instead of just once.


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## brandonf (Jul 26, 2009)

well i think that it depends on height too.
my loft is 8' long X 4' wide X 7' tall, i can reach that high to grab birds so it isnt a problem to me, that adds an extra foot compared to most ppls lofts that ive seen, therefore allowing about 14 more perches to my loft. i dont feel that my birds are over crowded at all. my birds are happy, they have food H2O a very nice home and a Dr. (me) to take care of them anytime of day. personally i feel that having happy birds is more important then all these numbers and sqft and all this stuff. if my birds are happy then they dont care about the number of roommates they have to share a home with.
just my .02


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## Mercutia (Aug 24, 2009)

I have one German Owl! > 3>

And thats it.


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## seismic wonder2 (Aug 15, 2009)

I just got two homers in a 4x8 loft with additional aviary room. I'm hoping to have 8 to 10 birds in the future.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

In looking back over the article that LokoaLoft posted...The article says to allow* at least...at the least ...or the minimum amount 1 1/2 sq ft floor space...floor space or 2 sq ft for Homers.* I would think that more sq ft would be necessary for breeds that are larger.

So...when you are cramming all these birds into the Minimum amount of sq ft, problems such as stress, bullying, scalped babies and illness should not be unexpected. Throw a few oops babies into the mix...you could have some issues!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I'm SOOO confused! I hate math. I have 160 sq. feet of loft/flightcage space (8 X 10 and 8 X 10) with 67 birds in it. They don't look crowded at all!
> I really think you can take height into account considering that you have perches, platforms and table space giving it multilevels. But I definitely can't have any more!
> See what happens when you fall in love with them


Waynette. You cannot take height into consideration, or perches, or the aviary. The formula means FLOOR space of the loft. They live in the loft, not the aviary. And in Northern New England, where it gets pretty darn cold during the winter months, and well into the spring, they are inside a lot. With an 8X10 loft, you have 80 square feet. Now, divide that by 2. You should have not more than 40 birds, going by the formula. The environment and the air quality suffer when you go beyond that, and to be fair to your birds, you want that quality to be as good as you can make it. Stress IS higher, and disease spreads more easily. It spreads even through the dust made by the birds, and the more birds, and smaller the space, the more dust. Therefore, disease spreads much easier. 
People are going to do what they want anyway, and have as many birds as they want. And try to justify it any way they can. But the fact remains that when you over crowd, you are not being fair to the birds you have, nor are you doing the best that you can for them. But saying this is pointless, because those who need to hear it, don't care about the welfare of their birds, and those that DO care, don't need to be told.


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

I have a 10x10x10 loft. (I know...I built it too high) Right now I have 18 homers and 6 fantails. I plan to have only 2 fantails and 40 homers at the most.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

you also have to figure in that they all eat on the floor at the same time not while on their perches so even though they can all fit on your walls that doesnt mean they can all eat on your floor at the same feeder at the same time


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

okay guys... I'm officially over crowded. I have 70 on a 8X10x7 loft. I sold about 40 birds before breeding season and started breeding with about 35 birds.. I have raised 26 YBs and about 8 of the birds I sold came back. I don't have all the buyer's numbers so I'm waiting for them to come to my house to pick them up. I've got another buyer that is going to pickup about 15 birds from me that will bring my loft count to about 48 if the birds I sold get picked up. Then I still got 4 late hatches that is about a week old now.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

OK, well I guess I'm overcrowded too! But its clean and everybody is fat, happy and healthy. When my house sells I guess I'll have to add an addition


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

DUMMY EGGS FOLKS!.....LOL..


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## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

Well this might suprise some, but not others.
I've added up all of the sq. ft. of floor space, from 14 of your lofts, then devided by 14.
1660 sq. ft. (floor space), devided by 14 (lofts) = 118.5 sq. ft. (floor space)
So the Average sized loft would be just a bit larger then a 10'x10' Loft!
Now the Pigeons...
There are 435 Pigeons, devided by 14 pigeon keepers, = 31 Pigeons, per loft!
So a 10'x10' loft, that has 31 Pigeons in it, is the Average, that I come up with.


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## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

I have always gone with 12 Cubic Feet of space, per pigeon, in my lofts.
That's a lot of room for 1 pigeon, but that's good, if they don't get to fly every day.
So, if the Average size for a Pigeon loft is a 10'x10', and If it was, say 7' tall, 10x10x7= 700 cubic ft.
Devide 700, by 12 (cu. ft. per pigeon) and you should be able to keep 58 Pigeons, Comfortably, inside.
Considering, that the Average person has 31 Pigeons (from the numbers that I've come up with) a loft that is 8'x8'x7' would be the Average sized loft to build.
8x8x7= 448 cu. ft.
448/12= 37.3 Pigeons
From what I've come up with, everyone has overbuilt their lofts a little, on the Average. That's Good!
Of course, the more information that is gathered, from more Pigeon keepers, the numbers will change.
I just thought that I would make an attempt to find out the average sized loft, and the average number of Pigeons, that the Averaged Pigeon keeper has.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ND Cooper said:


> I have always gone with 12 Cubic Feet of space, per pigeon, in my lofts.
> That's a lot of room for 1 pigeon, but that's good, if they don't get to fly every day.
> So, if the Average size for a Pigeon loft is a 10'x10', and If it was, say 7' tall, 10x10x7= 700 cubic ft.
> Devide 700, by 12 (cu. ft. per pigeon) and you should be able to keep 58 Pigeons, Comfortably, inside.
> ...



Except that the guidlines are for *square floor footage *per bird and *not cubic feet. *

Statistics don't matter one hoot to a living loft situation.


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## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm not going to argue, do what you feel is right for your pigeons.
To me the loft is for the pigeons, and Human Management, if someone want's to build a loft 3' tall, go ahead, but, I wouldn't build one less then 2' tall for my Pigeons!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ND...I'm not arguing...I'm am telling you all what the article, written by an expert and posted by LokoaLoft says, regarding the minimum sq ft suggested per bird. It clearly says ...sq floor footage per bird minimum of 1 1/2 sq ft...2 sq ft for Homers...square feet, man... not cubic feet. Minimum means that more would be better. I don't understand why it's such a difficult concept to grasp.
Everyone is going to do what they want ...make up their own rules regardless of what an expert says anyway, because that's what people do. ...seems to be in our nature.
In the case of not enough room, other problems arise which of course fuel more threads about disease, scalping, bullying and such. So yeah sure...make up your own rules...we need to keep the forum going.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I always knew that pigeon people are a little nuts, but after reading all of this thread.............I'm POSITIVE that I'm right.............


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Funny..........The way I read it, most people have UNDERBUILT for the amount of birds they keep. And it is always better to go with MORE room for the birds. But as Charis has mantioned, it will keep the forum going.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> OK, well I guess I'm overcrowded too! But its clean and everybody is fat, happy and healthy. When my house sells I guess I'll have to add an addition


They may be fat, happy and healthy now, but wait til the winter time, when they are in more than out. It's gonna look a lot more crowded then. And keeping up with eggs for that many birds will be impossible. By next spring, you'll have twice that number. They will become stressed and crowded, they will scalp, and fight for space. With stress, comes sickness. Believe me, that isn't a happy environment. It isn't good for you either, as it will be twice the work and expense. It should be a hobby. Something to relax with and enjoy. It shouldn't be like work. The more manageable, the more fun and enjoyable it will be for you. You don't have nearly enough nest boxes and perches for that many birds. Unless you have added an awful lot since posting.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> I always knew that pigeon people are a little nuts, but after reading all of this thread.............I'm POSITIVE that I'm right.............


hey!!! are YOU included in that???


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> hey!!! are YOU included in that???


YES SHE IS!!!! LOL. TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

spirit wings said:


> hey!!! are YOU included in that???


You KNOW it!!! LOL


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> You KNOW it!!! LOL


I agree. and me too!


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

I think this thread is a good gut check for everyone.

Do the math and ask yourself....Am I managing my birds responsibly and ethically?

If you realise your not or heading that direction...now is the best time to sell some birds and buy some fake eggs and get back inline.

The alternative is you lose ALL of your birds and your health due to overcrowding and sickness. This is inevitable in a crowded loft.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ggoss1 said:


> I think this thread is a good gut check for everyone.
> 
> Do the math and ask yourself....Am I managing my birds responsibly and ethically?
> 
> ...


Very good advice.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> They may be fat, happy and healthy now, but wait til the winter time, when they are in more than out. It's gonna look a lot more crowded then. And keeping up with eggs for that many birds will be impossible. By next spring, you'll have twice that number. They will become stressed and crowded, they will scalp, and fight for space. With stress, comes sickness. Believe me, that isn't a happy environment. It isn't good for you either, as it will be twice the work and expense. It should be a hobby. Something to relax with and enjoy. It shouldn't be like work. The more manageable, the more fun and enjoyable it will be for you. You don't have nearly enough nest boxes and perches for that many birds. Unless you have added an awful lot since posting.


 I have to disagree with alot that you said here cuz I have at least 200 birds and two lofts and let me tell you I have lost maybe 3 birds to illness in the last 3 years and I am overcrowded in the lofts too ..the only problem I have had is with Salmonella due to mice, thats not an over population problem if you ask me... I replace at least 2 to 3 dozen eggs at least every other week with dummys so keeping them from reproducing isnt as hard as you make it out to sound unless you just dont bother with your birds at all.. in winter time my bird are outside just as much as they are in the summer though I dont fly them as much due to the abundance of hawks in my area which has been pretty much the only thing that has killed my birds in the last 5 years  as you can see I too one of the big nuts in this bunch .. just my two pents


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> They may be fat, happy and healthy now, but wait til the winter time, when they are in more than out. It's gonna look a lot more crowded then. And keeping up with eggs for that many birds will be impossible. By next spring, you'll have twice that number. They will become stressed and crowded, they will scalp, and fight for space. With stress, comes sickness. Believe me, that isn't a happy environment. It isn't good for you either, as it will be twice the work and expense. It should be a hobby. Something to relax with and enjoy. It shouldn't be like work. The more manageable, the more fun and enjoyable it will be for you. You don't have nearly enough nest boxes and perches for that many birds. Unless you have added an awful lot since posting.


As soon as its dark, they are ALL inside. The door to the flight cage is always open, but they all choose to go inside for the night. There's plenty of room, everybody has claimed their spot and their not crowded. They actually have 3 times more space than they had at my other house.
Nothing is impossible and I won't have twice the number next spring - I know my limits.......and I'm going to stop right here because I don't think I should have to defend myself.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> I have to disagree with alot that you said here cuz I have at least 200 birds and two lofts and let me tell you I have lost maybe 3 birds to illness in the last 3 years and I am overcrowded in the lofts too ..the only problem I have had is with Salmonella due to mice, thats not an over population problem if you ask me... I replace at least 2 to 3 dozen eggs at least every other week with dummys so keeping them from reproducing isnt as hard as you make it out to sound unless you just dont bother with your birds at all.. in winter time my bird are outside just as much as they are in the summer though I dont fly them as much due to the abundance of hawks in my area which has been pretty much the only thing that has killed my birds in the last 5 years  as you can see I too one of the big nuts in this bunch .. just my two pents


Don't know what it is that you are disagreeing with. That overcrowding causes stress, and birds get sick more easily? Well, it does, and they do. I'm glad you've been lucky. Not everyone is, unfortunately. Overcrowding isn't good. Giving them more space is better for the birds whether you agree or not.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> As soon as its dark, they are ALL inside. The door to the flight cage is always open, but they all choose to go inside for the night. There's plenty of room, everybody has claimed their spot and their not crowded. They actually have 3 times more space than they had at my other house.
> Nothing is impossible and I won't have twice the number next spring - I know my limits.......and I'm going to stop right here because I don't think I should have to defend myself.


 I agree Msfree ,if it wasnt for you where would these birds be and how well would they be treated elsewhere... more power to you and dont let anyone else tell you otherwise or bring you down .. I have had birds all my life and to have people try to tell me whats what that only just begun try to make me feel like I know crap about them its just sad


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> As soon as its dark, they are ALL inside. The door to the flight cage is always open, but they all choose to go inside for the night. There's plenty of room, everybody has claimed their spot and their not crowded. They actually have 3 times more space than they had at my other house.
> Nothing is impossible and I won't have twice the number next spring - I know my limits.......and I'm going to stop right here because I don't think I should have to defend myself.


No. You don't have to defend yourself. But if you have 67 birds in a loft that is 8X10, they are overcrowded according to the guidelines.
No body has to justify anything to anybody else. We were talking about what the maximum of birds in relation to the size of the loft, should be, according to the guidelines that were posted. The guidelines are in most pigeon books, and it is usually 2 sq. feet of floor space, per bird. Even at 1 1/2 sq. ft. that is still over crowding. They have them for a reason, and I didn't make the guidelines.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Don't know what it is that you are disagreeing with. That overcrowding causes stress, and birds get sick more easily? Well, it does, and they do. I'm glad you've been lucky. Not everyone is, unfortunately. Overcrowding isn't good. Giving them more space is better for the birds whether you agree or not.


Jay3 not to be harsh but I have witnessed you even bashing TAwhatley for things you didnt approve of ,what gives you the right to make others feel inferior to you when they havce been involved in pigeons so much longer then you ...at least these birds are well taken care of and in good homes ..find someone else to take out your aggression on please cuz its just sad to read it here for me we cant save them all but we can sure try.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> Jay3 not to be harsh but I have witnessed you even bashing TAwhatley for things you didnt approve of ,what gives you the right to make others feel inferior to you when they havce been involved in pigeons so much longer then you ...at least these birds are well taken care of and in good homes ..find someone else to take out your aggression on please cuz its just sad to read it here for me we cant save them all but we can sure try.


Like I already said, we were talking about whether people were over crowded, according to the guidelines in the books that people write about in the care and keeping of pigeons. According to the guidelines, you are over crowded. That is not me judging you. I didn't make the guidelines. I'm not taking out my aggression on anyone. You are getting defensive about the amount of birds you have in the space you have them in. If you feel inferior, that is within you. I am not trying to make you feel that way. I'm saying some of you are over crowded. And the numbers don't lie. So don't blame me.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Like I already said, we were talking about whether people were over crowded, according to the guidelines in the books that people write about in the care and keeping of pigeons. According to the guidelines, you are over crowded. That is not me judging you. I didn't make the guidelines. I'm not taking out my aggression on anyone. You are getting defensive about the amount of birds you have in the space you have them in. If you feel inferior, that is within you. I am not trying to make you feel that way. I'm saying some of you are over crowded. And the numbers don't lie. So don't blame me.


 Jay I know Im over crowded maybe I should just release all those ones I adopted that needed homes and I will be within the guideline and you wont point out that Im overcrowded anymore ..


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Well, if you go by the 1 1/2 sq.ft. "GUIDELINE", I'm 7 birds over - So shoot me!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> Jay I know Im over crowded maybe I should just release all those ones I adopted that needed homes and I will be within the guideline and you wont point out that Im overcrowded anymore ..


No. But maybe you could try to find some of them homes. Sorry you get defensive, and now sarcastic when someone points out the obvious. Now do you feel better?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Well, if you go by the 1 1/2 sq.ft. "GUIDELINE", I'm 7 birds over - So shoot me!


It would be 14 over.
Waynette. Stop blaming me. If that makes you feel better, go ahead.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> No. But maybe you could try to find some of them homes. Sorry you get defensive, and now sarcastic when someone points out the obvious. Now do you feel better?


I can honestly say I dont hear what your saying anyways ..whats that, find homes for birds that I have had for years lol no way ,your nuts


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> I can honestly say I dont hear what your saying anyways ..whats that, find homes for birds that I have had for years lol no way ,your nuts


Well, somewhere along the way, as you acquired them, maybe you could have found homes for some is all I'm saying.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Like I already said, we were talking about whether people were over crowded, according to the guidelines in the books that people write about in the care and keeping of pigeons. According to the guidelines, you are over crowded. That is not me judging you. I didn't make the guidelines. I'm not taking out my aggression on anyone. You are getting defensive about the amount of birds you have in the space you have them in. If you feel inferior, that is within you. I am not trying to make you feel that way. I'm saying some of you are over crowded. And the numbers don't lie. So don't blame me.


With all due respect Jay, YOU brought up the subject of overcrowding. That is not what this thread was about - I don't believe. Whether you want to admit it or not - you are judging people. Granted, you didn't make the "guidelines" (which I myself never follow because I'm a Nonconformist) but who died and left you in charge to enforce and judge?
The important issue is that these birds have a good home and are well taken care of whether their a little crowded or not. You know as well as I do that there aren't enough homes for all the pigeons in need. 
So in my book, a pigeon needing a safe home with love and care is more important than some so called expert's opinion of space.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Well, somewhere along the way, as you acquired them, maybe you could have found homes for some is all I'm saying.


jay if you havent noticed already theres not many people that really want pigeons


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> With all due respect Jay, YOU brought up the subject of overcrowding. That is not what this thread was about - I don't believe. Whether you want to admit it or not - you are judging people. Granted, you didn't make the "guidelines" (which I myself never follow because I'm a Nonconformist) but who died and left you in charge to enforce and judge?
> The important issue is that these birds have a good home and are well taken care of whether their a little crowded or not. You know as well as I do that there aren't enough homes for all the pigeons in need.
> So in my book, a pigeon needing a safe home with love and care is more important than some so called expert's opinion of space.


You know something Waynette, taking in a pigeoon here and there that needs a home is one thing. Allowing them to breed and breed until they are overcrowded is just not responsible. I'm not enforcing and judging. Just said that over crowding is not fair to the birds. It isn't. They don't have a choice. You do. Now if you guys want to get defensive and argue a point that really doesn't have a defense, then you go right ahead. Defend yourselves silly if you want to. I'm not getting into it anymore with you. Good night.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I have an idea! 
Next time someone finds a pigeon in need, ask them if they want to stay on the street and die alone, hungry and cold? Or do they want to come home to my overcrowded loft with plenty of food, shelter and friends? Let them decide - I bet I know their answer


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2009)

in a perfect world this would be the ideal space requirement I will agree with you there


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