# Preparing to Win!



## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi All!

When preparing a racer for any distance I am confused as to the methods some fanciers apply in achieving success!

Some "break-down" the bird before the race and then build him up again to peak on the following Saturday! By breaking-down I mean cleansing the system with dewormers, purging with epsom salts and a depurative mix until say the Tuesday and then build-up with a high protein diet of say 3 parts maize(corn) to 1 part mixed peas till Wednesday.

Then Thursday a relatively light meal meal if the distance is short of only dehusked sunflower or barley with electrolytes or vitamins of B type/glucose in the water the whole day and only clean water on Friday. No feed. 

Shipping is done on Friday evening - no meal. Saturday - liberation at 7 am - arrival at 2pm!

Tell me those who know? Pleease!

Confused

white flight ZA


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

white flight said:


> Hi All!
> 
> When preparing a racer for any distance I am confused as to the methods some fanciers apply in achieving success!
> 
> ...


For me personally, I would _*NEVER*_ use a wormer in the middle of the season! Worming takes a lot out of the birds and is hard on their digestive systems. That will knock them out of form quicker than anything.

Dan


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

learning said:


> For me personally, I would _*NEVER*_ use a wormer in the middle of the season! Worming takes a lot out of the birds and is hard on their digestive systems. That will knock them out of form quicker than anything.
> 
> Dan


*Never *say never Dan. 

I do deworm the team in the middle of the season. Have you ever wormed a 8 week old puppy for round worms? If the pup has worms you will see a lot of full grown/adult worms. If your birds pick up worms in the basket early in the season it could take them out of the running before the end of the season.

We have 10 races (the last races are the money races). On the 7th race we drop back to 130 mi. So on monday after the 6th. race my birds get dewormed with Wazine 17. This wormer is made just for round worms and is not to hard on the birds. On Tuesday & Wednesday they get Garlic and Pro Bios in their water. Thursday they will get Honey & Green Tea, Friday clean water. Any worms they get from this point will not be a problem until after the race season is over.

As for taking them out of form! This year in that race my A birds were 13th and 14th, the B team came in 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th and 7th. Again, IMO if your birds pick up worms and you do nothing those birds will be out of it or lost by the end of the season.

Ace


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Each to his own Ace.

Worming mid season is not something I would do but if it works for you...have at it.

Dan


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

learning said:


> Each to his own Ace.
> 
> Worming mid season is not something I would do but if it works for you...have at it.
> 
> Dan


OK, you are right "each to his own". 

I hope others will come along with their thoughts on this. As a matter of fact I will start a new thread on this. Please, anyone who would like to let us know their thoughts on this mater respond to the new thread (TO WORM OR NOT TO WORM DURING THE RACING SEASON)

Ace


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi ACE!

Why then NOT a thread of "When to ... When not to" do NO "anticanker, anti-cocci, anti-para, etc...?" 

Just a plain healthy balanced diet (grain), vits, probiotics, grit, some garlic, GSE or ACV?

NO SARCASM MEANT!!

white flight ZA


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

white flight said:


> Hi ACE!
> 
> Why then NOT a thread of "When to ... When not to" do NO "anticanker, anti-cocci, anti-para, etc...?"
> Just a plain healthy balanced diet (grain), vits, probiotics, grit, some garlic, GSE or ACV?
> ...


I treat for these things before the race season and Yes, I do treat them for these things during the season. I also want you to remember that there are many natural things you can use to treat and or prevent problems from these things.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think it is funny sitting back and reading this post about how quickly people are to disagree. 

I have always been a believer in following the methods of those who win races. It seems funny to me how quickly some are to discount methods of others. "To each his own" comes to mind. For those who do not study the race sheets, I would challenge anyone to discount the race record of ACE and possibly his methods if they have studied the race sheets. Keep in mind this is his first year back into racing. Also keep in mind his name is not on two races that he also won outright. One due to clocking issues and one he missed the clocking deadline due to work. Whether it is worming, medicating, training, etc, I always look at those who are winning and emulate them. Something, as I know ACE, he does. So before you discount a fanciers methods first look at his or her results. 

My thoughts are that there will always be disbelievers and discounters. This is good because we always need names at the bottom of the race sheets also. Disagreements are good in the racing sport, but until you are on the top of the race sheet, never stop being open to the ideas of those who are. 

If you want to see Ace's race results you can shortcut to my webpage under results or look on www.pigeon.org under the data base Young birds 2008. Frankenmuth RPC. Just look for Mark Raymond Ace in the hole loft. Whatever he was doing was working. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I think it is funny sitting back and reading this post about how quickly people are to disagree.
> 
> I have always been a believer in following the methods of those who win races. It seems funny to me how quickly some are to discount methods of others. "To each his own" comes to mind. For those who do not study the race sheets, I would challenge anyone to discount the race record of ACE and possibly his methods if they have studied the race sheets. Keep in mind this is his first year back into racing. Also keep in mind his name is not on two races that he also won outright. One due to clocking issues and one he missed the clocking deadline due to work. Whether it is worming, medicating, training, etc, I always look at those who are winning and emulate them. Something, as I know ACE, he does. So before you discount a fanciers methods first look at his or her results.
> 
> ...



Randy, I agree with you, but in all fairness to White Flight (if that's who you were "talking" to) ......he/she?? is new to the forum and probably has no idea who Ace is or what he did. It's good that you pointed it out to him so he can go check and see for himself. HE doesn't know who he's talking to or about. 
And, just because what "Ace" does works for Ace, doesn't mean that is will work for the next flyer. We all do things different, from feeding, to watering, to training, medicating and the list goes on. 
Let's face it.......there isn't a single subject that I can think of about racing where we would ALL agree on everything. Just the nature of the game.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> Randy, I agree with you, but in all fairness to White Flight (if that's who you were "talking" to) ......he/she?? is new to the forum and probably has no idea who Ace is or what he did. It's good that you pointed it out to him so he can go check and see for himself. HE doesn't know who he's talking to or about.
> And, just because what "Ace" does works for Ace, doesn't mean that is will work for the next flyer. We all do things different, from feeding, to watering, to training, medicating and the list goes on.
> Let's face it.......there isn't a single subject that I can think of about racing where we would ALL agree on everything. Just the nature of the game.


I agree with you Renee. What works for one will not work for all! Some of the things I do will not work for others because they are not doing some of the other things that I do. That is why it is called a "System". If all the parts of a "System" do not fit together your "System" will not work. Every one must figure out what works for them and what their goals are. 

Ace


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

*Preparing to Win, cont.....*

Hi Ace and others joining in this discussion!

I agree that you must have a "system" in place. I would refer to this as your "loft management." 

ACE I see you obviously have a successful system in place, BUT don't you sometimes deviate depending upon circimstances? A loft programme?

Getting technical: I will rather refer to a "race programme" - in PREPARING TO WIN!

YES! I also DO medicate. I do this as I do not know what my healthy pigeons will pick-up in the race pannier amongst hundreds of other birds from other lofts who may be carriers of pathogens. 

To "Hillfamilyloft" - I am not discounting anyone! My initial comments were that some fanciers "break-down" and then "build-up" the bird in a week! Can this be done successfully? Simple question!

My own "program" is a scientific, cyclical one. It works on a rotational basis of different medications every 4 weeks followed-up by vitamins, pro-biotics, garlic oil and GSE! Brewers Yeast powder or tablets is a MUST! At least 3x per week. 

Also in the cycle there is at least one week which is a clean week" i.e. nothing BUT "clean water and clean food!"

I DO also follow a scientifically developed pre-moult and pre-breeding programme! One designed by a top fancier and a vet!

So, that's all - no indifference, what works for one, stick to it!

white flight ZA


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

*Preparing to Win Programme!*

Hi Ace and others joining in this discussion!

I agree that you must have a "system" in place. I would refer to this as your "loft management." 

ACE I see you obviously have a successful system in place, BUT don't you sometimes deviate depending upon circimstances? A loft programme?

Getting technical: I will rather refer to a "race programme" - in PREPARING TO WIN!

YES! I also DO medicate. I do this as I do not know what my healthy pigeons will pick-up in the race pannier amongst hundreds of other birds from other lofts who may be carriers of pathogens. 

To "Hillfamilyloft" - I am not discounting anyone! My initial comments were that some fanciers "break-down" and then "build-up" the bird in a week! Can this be done successfully? Simple question!

My own "program" is a scientific, cyclical one. It works on a rotational basis of different medications every 4 weeks followed-up by vitamins, pro-biotics, garlic oil and GSE! Brewers Yeast powder or tablets is a MUST! At least 3x per week. 

Also in the cycle there is at least one week which is a clean week" i.e. nothing BUT "clean water and clean food!"

I DO also follow a scientifically developed pre-moult and pre-breeding programme! One designed by a top fancier and a vet!

So, that's all - no indifference, what works for one, stick to it!

white flight ZA


Just wish to say - I am studying various programmes - not fishing!


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

I believe Randy was refering to my comments when he talked about "to each his own". I do not believe that this statement is discounting what Ace had said. If anything it is confirming that his methods are working for him. I will be the first one to recognize and applaud Ace's accomplishments. I was merely stating that I believe the process of worming to be very hard on the birds and would not reccomend it during the stress of racing. I am certainly not out to challenge his methods, just present another viewpoint.

Dan


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

I personally do worm prior to race season and then again around week 6 as they have picked up worms in the past. I am not afraid of maintenace medication during race season such as canker, respiratory, or wormer. My birds get canker treatment every 2 weeks and repiratory every other week. Works for me much better than when I didnt. Race sheets dont lie.
Ken


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

whitesnmore said:


> I personally do worm prior to race season and then again around week 6 as they have picked up worms in the past. I am not afraid of maintenace medication during race season such as canker, respiratory, or wormer. My birds get canker treatment every 2 weeks and repiratory every other week. Works for me much better than when I didnt. Race sheets dont lie.
> Ken


I would agree with you on the canker and respiratory preventative treatments during the season as these are not as hard on the birds. I just wouldn't include the wormer, but then again, that is just me. In my experience, which I admit is limited, the worming seems to wear them down for a while. The others do not seem to have this effect.

Dan


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

learning said:


> I would agree with you on the canker and respiratory preventative treatments during the season as these are not as hard on the birds. I just wouldn't include the wormer, but then again, that is just me. In my experience, which I admit is limited, the worming seems to wear them down for a while. The others do not seem to have this effect.
> 
> Dan


Dan, Have you ever wormed your birds with Wazine 17? Answer this question for me and I will tell you more.

Thanks,

Mark


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

ace in the hole said:


> Dan, Have you ever wormed your birds with Wazine 17? Answer this question for me and I will tell you more.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark


No I haven't. I usually use Moxidectin Plus from APC. It has added Praziquantel that takes care of tapeworms as well as the usual roundworms. It is also effective in helping to control lice and mites on the feathers and skin.

I have never used the Wazine 17 before. Where do you get it and what is in it?

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Winning Birds...or a Winning System....Who has all the answers ?*



white flight said:


> Hi All!
> 
> When preparing a racer for any distance I am confused as to the methods some fanciers apply in achieving success!
> 
> ...



My contribution to this thread will be to attempt to offer some perspective. 

I will preface this with some of the following caveat's, in the hope that my observations will be taken in the spirit for which they are intended. And that is to provide the reader a method to evaluate not only the particular subject matter of this particular thread, but any other academic discussion as it relates to the management and care of racing pigeons.

First off the bat, let me be clear, that I do not hold myself up as any sort of expert in terms of the validity of any aspect of any particular management system. Quite the opposite may be true, as my focus has been from the very beginning, the design and development of a superior strain of racing pigeons, specifically a very fast maturing bird, with a very strong immune system, which can turn in consistent performances at the various distances in your typical One Loft Event. *I have also suspected, that any victories won by my birds locally, have been in spite of my management*, and not because of my management. Part of my thinking has been that once my birds depart from the Mother loft to participate in a number of races in various events sometimes thousands of miles away, that these birds will be subjected to all kinds of various routine's, which may be radically different....the good, the bad, and yes sometimes even the ugly. 

Now, having said all that, I am not personally convinced, that the "Perfect" management system as yet to be developed, or perfectly implemented. I am also convinced, that even world class fanciers, who have demonstrated their management skills by winning numerous races, over in some cases decades, are in fact, still attempting to improve what they are currently doing. So, in other words, no fancier in the world, has a complete monopoly, or can speak with absolute authority, that they know every aspect, with absolute perfection, every thing there is to know, as far as what is the best way to manage every bird on a racing team. Now, the more success a fancier has, the more creditability he or she may have, but certainly, they are still human, and not infallible. 

With local racing, there are an unknown number of factors which contribute to the success or failure of any particular race or season. Just to mention a few which most can agree on, the loft, the loft location, the loft location in regards to the race course, the training, the feed, the genetic make up of the birds, the age of the birds, health, the level of competition, motivation of birds, medical programs, various nutritional programs, lighting, darkness of loft, manual or electronic clock, and perhaps dozens or even hundreds of other factors. 

Now I state the obvious to make my first point, which has proven itself in our local 100+ member combine over the last decades. Long ago there was this Mr. "X" who was looked at as "thee expert" on pigeon management, because he led the combine over a decade. All his methods and ideas were considered gospel because he was after all the top winner. If as an example, he painted his landing board white, had a heated concrete floor, fed only three different grains, and only medicated for canker....then by golly, you can't argue with success, and if you did, then that was why you were a loser. 

Then this guy named Fred Smeltzer came along, equipped with some new imports that nobody wanted, from some brothers....you may have heard of them, their last name was "Janssen", which he secured from his friend....some new kid on the block you may have heard of in passing....his name "Mike Ganus". Any way, they also had some crazy idea of putting the YB's in the dark (such foolishness...). Well....I think you know what happened. Turns out, the success was not due to his loft design, that three grain diet, his white landing board, etc. What were thought to be "Facts" turned out to be erroneous opinion. He did what many self proclaimed "experts" do in such situations....he quit racing. 

Now, in the various posts, in the discussion as to, or not to medicate for worms. I did not see anyone question as to whether the birds droppings should be routinely analyzed to determine if worms are present in the first place ? And then, could it not be possible that different medications would have an impact on condition ? Some posts suggested that worming could impact condition,......if worms were present, would that not also impact condition ? If in fact, the birds were free of any worms, what would be the benefit/ negative impact of worming birds without worms ? If you worm your birds on a Monday, which were free of worms, and then they consume worm eggs on Thursday, did the Monday worming prevent the infestation on Thursday ? I don't know the answer with any degree of certainly to this riddle. 

Most medications with most "systems" given by fanciers in the USA are given with the thought that the birds could, will, have, picked up "something" in the basket. Absent any concrete medical and scientific evidence of any particular "sickness" in a particular bird, then the mass flock treatment with any medication becomes playing the odds, and a guessing game. 

Regardless of the "system", if a particular flock has no internal worm parasites, then the true correct action is not to treat. Those who treat let's say because of the calendar, and their "system" says treat for worms on a certain week....of the season, may not be as smart as they think they are. Those who refuse to treat because their "system" says it should not be done, when in fact there is an infestation, are no smarter. As you can see, there is an element of luck in doing the correct thing at the correct time. Either of the above fancier examples could be right on the money one season, and successful and dead wrong and a failure the next. Add in all the various variables, and from a science point of view, one's position on the race sheets in any particular season, may have little to do with the correctness of a single action within their "system". 

Perhaps in conclusion, the attractiveness of any "off the shelf ready made system' is the fact that as fanciers, we are basically lazy, and hoping for a single easy silver bullet solution. The best course of action, in my opinion, is to question everything, and not to accept most of what you hear, until you have applied your own common sense along with scientific principals. Simply following the advice and "wisdom" of the current leader in your club or combine, and becoming a "copycat"...such as painting that landing board, or changing to feeding three grains only....may not lead to long term success, unless and until, you do a little of your own independent research and make what turns out to be the correct choices, made in the best interests of your pigeons.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Great post Warren,

Very well said! 

For Dan,

Warren covered part of what I was going to say about testing your birds. If they do have worms (round worms) and you have to medicate some wormers are not as hard on the birds as others. By the way, I picked up this Wazine 17 at the local grain elevator (it was only about $7.50). This may be something to use once on the off season and see how your birds react to it. 

Just a little over a week ago I wormed my birds with 3 drops each of Ivomec per bird and I could see the change in them. When I worm them with the Wazine I do not see it take them down the same way. Just in case you need to worm during the season some wormers might be better than others. Some of this was in my thoughts when I said never say never. All was said with the best intentions.

Ace


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Ace maybe the reason that the Ivomec takes your birds down is because I believe everyone overdoses them on this. I would love to get worms bad enough here to prove my theory that the amount we give our birds is about 6 times more dosage than you would give a cow. If I ever get worms bad enough to test the lesser doses to see if they work I will prove my treory. My bet is that one half of one drop would treat our bird for worms.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The vet can run a fecal very easily, and then you would know what kind of dewormer to use or if you even need to at all....pretty basic.....


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

ohiogsp said:


> Ace maybe the reason that the Ivomec takes your birds down is because I believe everyone overdoses them on this. I would love to get worms bad enough here to prove my theory that the amount we give our birds is about 6 times more dosage than you would give a cow. If I ever get worms bad enough to test the lesser doses to see if they work I will prove my treory. My bet is that one half of one drop would treat our bird for worms.


Hi Ohio,

I know you test your birds all of the time ( yourself), but most people don't do this. I would venture to say that MOST of them do not have their birds tested as much as once a year if at all. AS for the matter of overdosing with Ivomec. This, the matter of many conversations starting well over 20 years ago from what I know myself (I don't know when they started using Ivomec for pigeons). I used it back then for my birds and have used it for my dogs as well. In the 20 + years I know of people saying this "may" be overdosing the birds. There has yet to be any proof that the birds are harmed in any way by 3 drops per bird. I am sorry but I am inclined to beleave what I see. Expecialy when it is what you could say was a 20 year study. Ivomec goes clean through the birds and leaves no residuals. 

I used Ivomec this time because I was moving the birds to a new breeding loft and I wanted to make sure all birds were clean of bugs inside and out before going into that loft (Ivomec also helps with external parasites). The birds were deloused first and then treated with the Ivomec. 

As for the point I was trying to get across about the worm medication for during the racing season. If you find your birds have worm during the season and need to medicate, wouldn't it be nice to know what medication you could use whithout knocking your birds down any more than you have to!!!!!! It is all about knowing what to use when!! That's all I would like to get across here.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I took a look at my birds today. They look great and ready to put together. I am working toward Winter Solstice for the day, Dec 22nd, 23rdish. Last year I did not medicate at all before I put them together. This year I am putting them on a week of 3-1 for Worms, Cocci, Canker. My thoughts here are that they may not need meds, but the last time I used this 3-1 was my best breeding season. I had about 90% hatch rate. Last year was probably my worst hatch rate at about 75%. Last year it was cold, the birds were a bit fat, and if they had worms or anything else it was not cleared up before they were put together. Right now they are on a diet also. If anything they are a little fat. 

From what I have read we all have worms, people, dogs, birds etc in some extent or another. My thoughts are if this is the only medication I ever use that it will not harm the immune system and clear the birds up of a few things that can hurt the season. I do agree with Warren not to treat unless you know the birds need it. 

A few other things that may be brought up here is calcium, protien, and vitamins.

Randy


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

ace in the hole said:


> Hi Ohio,
> 
> I know you test your birds all of the time ( yourself), but most people don't do this. I would venture to say that MOST of them do not have their birds tested as much as once a year if at all. AS for the matter of overdosing with Ivomec. This, the matter of many conversations starting well over 20 years ago from what I know myself (I don't know when they started using Ivomec for pigeons). I used it back then for my birds and have used it for my dogs as well. In the 20 + years I know of people saying this "may" be overdosing the birds. There has yet to be any proof that the birds are harmed in any way by 3 drops per bird. I am sorry but I am inclined to beleave what I see. Expecialy when it is what you could say was a 20 year study. Ivomec goes clean through the birds and leaves no residuals.
> 
> ...



I don't think the 3 drops dosage has long term effects. My point is that if we gave a dosage that is correct for the weight of a pigeon maybe it would take care of the worms and not even effect the birds at all.


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all!

Moxidectin/Ivomec serves 2 purposes, namely it can rid birds of worms, especially "hairworm" and it stops external mites/louse or bloodsuckers (as was mentioned in this thread).

Now there is another dewormer, Tramisol, which when diluted to a 4 (parts water):1 ratio acts as an immunostimulant!

It can be used safely throughout the year.

I agree that testing pigeon droppings for worm eggs is the first step for the sake of deworming not for the sake of it being routinely used as part of a race programme/system.

white flight ZA


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

My young birds droppings are sent to Foy`s in Beaver Falls,Pa for checking one month before the races start...$25.00 for 2 samples is the cost...If all is well,I don`t worm unless they find something..I also do not let my YB`s go on the ground...I`m not sure if that helps a whole lot,but it makes me feel somewhat better...I would think they would get worms more so from pecking and eating grass on the ground...Being from NYC originally,I`m no expert on lawns & gardens !!!.....Alamo


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