# Breeding Methods



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I found this read and wanted to start a thread aside from the eye sign thread to discuss other methods for breeding. I was going to study my pedigrees and see if there is any correlation with Ed's views on line-breeding and percentages. 

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/asked-pairbreeders.html

I would also like to hear from others on how they pair birds. I am thinking this could help some of the new fliers in the post. Also we could compare methods to find correlations for success. Also we can share articles etc.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I have two key breeders this year, Kahuna and Tiger that are in need of mates this year. I was thinking on breeding them to key grand daughters. I am not fond of the mother son, father daughter breedings, but have read some views on the subject. 
I am also looking to establish a grizzle family of birds based around 50% or so of my blood. Working the color x performance into my birds. I want top 10% grizzles. I want to world some of my key splash into the grizzles to maintain some white. I am looking for club grizzle birds that have raced 10% to bring in. Probably partner on this project. Would love Becky to chime in one what you get when you cross a Splash with a grizzle bird. The grizzle will be from a BC x full Grizzle cross. Not sure the sex yet.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Very interesting that by breeding for so many years he has come up with a percentage system with his family of birds...I wonder if this is close for all families. Anyone have several years worth of records that they could compile that sort of data from?


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

This will be my first year breeding. I only have 4 birds that are proven breeders, 6 bred for stock, and then I have 11 pigeons that are proven racers to breed from. It is a melting pot of strains and types of birds. I have 8 birds from a proven family of distance pigeons, 5 speed birds, and the other birds excelled at the 200-300 mile races for me. I'm trying to make some kind of bird that will be good for the young bird races mainly, I guess like everyone else. I want some fast maturing young birds that by the time it is July-August want to build a nest and mate. This year I'm going off of 6 pairs that were pre-paired for me. Leaving me with 5 to pair up on my own. With those I'm kind of just trying to pair that heavy long distance birds with some speed birds to create 50/50 to eventually stock after they race well. Breeding my very wide cock bird to my small Bastin hen that if she would of trapped in and wasn't scared off by a hawk would have been 1st place, and then she was on my first drop at the last 300 mile race. Either way I'm very excited for this upcoming breeding and young bird season, I feel like I'll end up with better birds then what I had this year.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Ed's theory of Speed birds with distance birds was interesting. Cross them, find the best fliers and then cross the best back into either the speed or Distance birds depending on what you want. Mark and I are looking for a distance family. I will try and cross these into my family of birds. to add a bit of distance to my birds. We are going 400m young birds and 500m old birds. Want to add about 100m to families.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

In crossing a distance bird to a speed bird you are trying to change the structure of the bird ie wing, feather size and wing lenght etc. I think it would take more than just one or two crosses to accomplish that. I glad other people before me worked through the process with the birds I have today.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Ed’s method is pretty much a common or standard breeding practice for many different animals. Some don’t even know they are doing it because they breed from a base house bloodline and introduce outside blood from time to time, and, eventually breed those crosses back into the base family. That is also a form of this breeding method. 

Breeding big to small; speed to distance; deep keel to round bodies, etc are also common breeding practices used everywhere. It’s the idea of balance, addition and subtraction to create a preffered result. Philosophy and success can be very different though.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I still think Old Hand's method is one of the purest methods to ways to build a family, line breeding then cross after three generations.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I would like to see what is everyones top 5 or 10 selection methods or criteria for selecting breeders. Not looking for a big debate just want to see if their is any correlation in what we all use for selection. Would like for others to chime in. Many of us have probably not given it much thought. You can also add criteria used from others like Bieche etc.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My top 10 criteria for selecting birds to breed from:
1. Breeders that have bred winners
2. Breeders that Produce top 10 birds
3. Winning birds (My best two or three racers-must have wins, top 10 or multiple 10%)
4. Breeders that Produce to 10% birds
5. Same sex siblings of 1-4 above
6. Offspring of my toppers (Best statistical breeders) any sex
7. Birds bred off my stock from others that have raced or produced well
8. Birds from other fanciers top breeding pair
9. Outside performance pigeons
10. Stock sense

I will go down the list and when I am at 20 to 25 pairs I stop. This year I will only go to number 6 on the selection criteria. 9/10 of my selection methods use only racing and breeding results and lineage to drive them. The last one the gut. As you know, I do not hold many other selection methods in high regard. I may begin to develop a physical selection criteria, when every bird in the loft is the top 3 or 4 on my list of criteria. I want to start looking into how to pair what is in the loft. So far I pair birds on this list in a few ways. Same sex sibling pairings that I know work, crossing families, line-breeding to maximize a birds blood %, keeping pairs together that produce, and random pick their own mates.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Randy, do you think color linking has anything to do with it? For example, descendants off famous birds that are not of the same color do not usually do well. That could be a reason why they're sold but still carry a hefty price tag because even though they're not the same color, they still carry the same color genes. I'll take this example: many birds that are sold by a famous breeder carry a famous bird's bloodline, but the birds that are being sold are not the same color.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> Randy, do you think color linking has anything to do with it? For example, descendants off famous birds that are not of the same color do not usually do well. That could be a reason why they're sold but still carry a hefty price tag because even though they're not the same color, they still carry the same color genes. I'll take this example: many birds that are sold by a famous breeder carry a famous bird's bloodline, but the birds that are being sold are not the same color.


Interesting theory. Do not really have an answer. I know some fanciers cull by color removing white from the loft. I think most of the top birds in the world are BC or BB, but then again most pigeons in the world are the same. Now color is sex linked and I do believe in sex linkage as far as breeding and selecting. For example one of my best pairs is Ed and Charlotte. I have found that their son's are exceptional breeders. The daughters good breeders. Both fly well. Ed x C has bred me 1st place winners, two sons 1st place winners, two others top 10s including second high points bird. Only one has not hit and I have only flown two birds off of him. Put a son in the breast cancer auction, and sent one to Mark. Anxious to see how they breed. So if the parents are different colors, one color associate with gender might be more desirable. In this pairs case, one birds is usually darker check then the other but not associated with sex. I am not expert on the sex linkage in breeding and have not seen much evidence of it, but it seems to work for me. Would love anyone to chime in that knows more.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

good read
http://pigeon24.com/news.php?action=show&id=69


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

hillfamilyloft: Looks like you could condense your list to............
1. Produce
2. Perform
3. Be the produce of one of the above for me or others.

Then the fun part begins, how to reproduce more birds that fit that model.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

raftree3 said:


> hillfamilyloft: Looks like you could condense your list to............
> 1. Produce
> 2. Perform
> 3. Be the produce of one of the above for me or others.
> ...


What I have found is that with my birds now, I can put most any bird in my loft together with any other and most of the time them can produce top 10% birds. I want top 10 birds or winners. These pairs are a bit harder to come by. In other words, I feel that I have a loft of quality birds, but I want a loft full of birds that produce winners. So if I do not have the scale winner-top 10- or 10% I will not reach this goal. I have found there is a difference in these birds. Also I only use production and performance mainly for selection and I feel I need a scale. I am hoping I can get where I only bring in winners and obtain also a performance scale for selection. Right now just bringing back the best few. I also fly in a club where I have no control over the training. My birds are not flying out of my loft. My birds are being flown in clubs naturally against system fliers. My thoughts are that an average bird can win under a system, but only an exceptional birds can win naturally against a system. These are the birds I need to win. Quality birds flying using dark or light are hard to beat, exceptionally birds under any system cannot be beat. Thus my hierarchy in selection.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

This kind of leads to the debate, which bird is better, the second place bird flown naturally missing flights, or the winning birds flown under a system with a full wing? The best bird in each loft is pretty easy to figure out, the best bird in the club not so easy. This year in our club it was clear cut which bird was best. 136 won three races and scored in most of the others. It had double the points of the second place bird and was not flown on a system. It will also win AU accolades. It is not always this easy. This kind of birds is what you want to bring back.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

hillfamilyloft said:


> good read
> http://pigeon24.com/news.php?action=show&id=69


 It was a good read yet he gave no details as to how he paired up the birds. All that long winded article said was eye sign and grading are not useful for beginners like myself. I guess I will let my birds pair themselves as there are no race records or pedigrees for my 4 bird of racing homer blood(none of his birds have been raced in years due to lack of lofts, how do you race when you are only going against a couple other guys). I have the 3 ferals kept seperate and to me it looks like 2 cocks 1 hen. The other 4 looks to be 1 cock 3 hens so i may put a hen with the ferals. I plan on racing the offspring against themselves to select for next year.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Just wanted to chime in with the linkage thing...Hillfamilyloft I know you are a teacher like myself...can't remember your subject but mine is Biology. Recombination occurs before gametes can be produced, the closer the genes are on a chromosome the more likely that they will not be broke up during recombination/cross over events. I think most everyone would agree that homing/racing ability is a multi-genic trait, meaning more than one gene controls this ability. Also I would be willing to bet that these genes are spread out over more than just the sex chromosomes, though I suppose some maybe located on the sex chromosomes. We know in pigeons that the males are XX hence why they carry 2 color genes, 1 on each X and that the female is XW (I think these are the correct labelings for pigeons, though the letters don't really matter) and hence why the female carries only 1 X chromosome. Going further, it is a widely held belief that there are many more good breeding cocks (or that they are easier to come by) than there are good breeding hens. Could that be because those good genes come from that great breeding hen on her 1 and only X? Yet that would seem circular, because that hen had to get that X from her dad...wow I don't know the answer but interesting stuff.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I think there are many just as many good hens as cocks, but because of advertising and lack of acknowledgement towards the hens we all think there is a higher number of good cocks then hens. I also believe that it takes two good birds to make a good one not just one.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Matt
I am more of a Math and physical science guy. I like to run the numbers. Currently I am teaching math to 6th graders. I have taught Middle school Science and Math to Alg1 9th grade. That is why I wanted more expertise in genetics. Our best color person in the thread is Becky. I am working with my same sex theory a bit and finding it to work. Don't know if it is just a coinkidinki or a reality. My best breeders any sex come from my best birds. 
I also value my hens greatly. I am also finding my best hens come off a few key birds. My best hens are off Kahuna and Tiger. Best cocks off Kahuna and Ed. Makes me think that Ed might not be as strong as his mate Charlotte. Don't know the answer to this. Anyway they breed winners, have great peds and their children breed winners.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

That was a good read, thanks.
Dave


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My main breeding goal this year is to secure Mark's "54" blood. My shipping mistake that got his 5416 killed makes this my first priority. I will be bringing 4 performance birds from the bloodline back from the race team to breed, along with two of his birds with the blood. 
My second goal is to secure the blood of my key breeding cocks. They will be 8 years old. I will be doing some selective breeding at the end of they year. Probably Grand-father x Grand-daugter. 
I will probably foster Ed x Charlotte to produce as many offspring as possible. I will fly 4-6 and keep 2-4 back for stock. Next year I may split them up and give them younger mates. 
Any other suggestions on how to deal with aging pairs let me know.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Aside from supplements to help in the breeding, I was always told that if you get an older bird to fertile an egg, DO NOT break them up, let them keep going. Its most likely that you are raising these young as stock anyways so late hatches shouldn't matter. I was told that through raising the babies themselves it helps with hormones and continues the cycle, though maybe let them raise only one and foster the other. I can certainly say that it makes sense not to break them up...I mean think about it you have an old cock he fertiles 2 clutches, you break them up for the summer, put them back together in the spring and then he doesn't fertile any...maybe you could have gotten 2 more clutches from him in the summer if you hadn't broken him up, meaning 4 more babies but you broke them up and now he is done...just something to think about.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I will be breeding from a 12 year old cock soon, thats good information Matt, this bird is a Grondelaer from Oak Haven Farm. He gets winsmore, is there anything special I should give him? My mentor is going to breed from a 12 year old hen this year that hes had for years.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

First To Hatch said:


> I will be breeding from a 12 year old cock soon, thats good information Matt, this bird is a Grondelaer from Oak Haven Farm. He gets winsmore, is there anything special I should give him? My mentor is going to breed from a 12 year old hen this year that hes had for years.


Pair him to a young hen, them old guys like the young hens. Also clip the feathers around the vent, this helps for solid contact during coupling. Not sure about supplements to give to cock birds, but I know old hens benefit from calcium gluconate.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Yes I'll be pairing him with a 2011 hen, and I'll make sure to trim those feathers.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Matt Bell said:


> Just wanted to chime in with the linkage thing...Hillfamilyloft I know you are a teacher like myself...can't remember your subject but mine is Biology. Recombination occurs before gametes can be produced, the closer the genes are on a chromosome the more likely that they will not be broke up during recombination/cross over events. I think most everyone would agree that homing/racing ability is a multi-genic trait, meaning more than one gene controls this ability. Also I would be willing to bet that these genes are spread out over more than just the sex chromosomes, though I suppose some maybe located on the sex chromosomes. We know in pigeons that the males are XX hence why they carry 2 color genes, 1 on each X and that the female is XW (I think these are the correct labelings for pigeons, though the letters don't really matter) and hence why the female carries only 1 X chromosome. Going further, it is a widely held belief that there are many more good breeding cocks (or that they are easier to come by) than there are good breeding hens. Could that be because those good genes come from that great breeding hen on her 1 and only X? Yet that would seem circular, because that hen had to get that X from her dad...wow I don't know the answer but interesting stuff.


I think mtDNA has something to do with it. Here's a good read on it.

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/pigeonandloft/mitochondrial-significance-maternal-line


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Problem with that is mitochondrial DNA supposedly does not contribute to any characteristics the individual. Could be mtDNA does impact it though...I think there are many things going on with the genetics which we haven't even scraped the iceberg yet, good idea and thought provoking!


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

First To Hatch said:


> I will be breeding from a 12 year old cock soon, thats good information Matt, this bird is a Grondelaer from Oak Haven Farm. He gets winsmore, is there anything special I should give him? My mentor is going to breed from a 12 year old hen this year that hes had for years.


I've got a 19 year old that still fills his eggs he's nothing special he's more like a pet then a breeder. But he wasn't looking good last year and I thought he wasn't gonna be around much longer so I put him in lil coop with a young hen that I had in there because she broke her leg. Well he turned around and they mated and they riased a couple of sets last year. But the one bird that I have thats really good and getting old is 14 about to turn 15. I was given him last year from a really good flyer he didn't fill his eggs but he couldn't cull him so he gave it to me to try out. The bird has bred a bunch of winners so I felt it was worth a shot. Well I've gotten 5 sets of eggs out of him. He's actually got 2 babies that are 3 weeks old now since I'm not seperating him I'm tryign to get as many breeders out of him as I can. I'll try each young in the breeding loft and see what I get. If they don't prodoce then they're out of the breeding loft and into the junk loft. But I've got him mated to one of my 2 time winners so I don't think too many will be getting moved out of the breeding loft. But who knows they might be duds.


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