# Boy or girl?



## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Hi all,

Nibbler, who we always believed was a male, and still do, has pretty much picked my dad as his 'mate'. He will follow him around the house like a lost puppy, coo for him endlessly when he's not around, and sit for hours on his knee/lap/stairs/wherever being petted by his hand.

Because of his boisterous cooing, we have assumed he was always a male. However, recently, when being petted, he exhibits female mating behaviour, exposing his vent for mating purposes briefly at times during the petting sessions. Do males do this too or do we have a Nibblerette?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sounds like she is a hen, and the proof will be when and if she lays an egg.

I would STOP the petting on the back as that does stimulate egg production. Once they start laying eggs it is hard to get them to stop and can cause them all kinds of life threatening issues and calcium deficiency being one of the least. Please be careful.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I always worried about possible egg production with our known hen, but never with Nibbler... it's why we didn't mind petting 'him' on the back all the time. He will curl up in the corner of the stairs and coo and coo until my dad comes over to pet him, at which point he will just sit there, wings a-twitching, cooing and cooing and cooing in a state of unadulterated bliss. It's adorable. But I definitely don't want him to get hurt because of it... is there any way besides a blood test or an egg-laying to tell sex? He is smaller and leaner than Looksie, the one we know for sure is a hen, but we always just attributed that to him having a hard time keeping weight on him due to post-PMV diarrhea.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

draykie said:


> I always worried about possible egg production with our known hen, but never with Nibbler... it's why we didn't mind petting 'him' on the back all the time. He will curl up in the corner of the stairs and coo and coo until my dad comes over to pet him, at which point he will just sit there, wings a-twitching, cooing and cooing and cooing in a state of unadulterated bliss. It's adorable. But I definitely don't want him to get hurt because of it... is there any way besides a blood test or an egg-laying to tell sex? He is smaller and leaner than Looksie, the one we know for sure is a hen, but we always just attributed that to him having a hard time keeping weight on him due to post-PMV diarrhea.


it is hard to tell.. there is no 100% way to tell but you can guess.

It seems he thinks you're dad's hand is mating with him..so not sure how adorable that is...lol.. If you have more than one pigeon, I wonder why they have not paired up.. maybe they are two females..?? time will tell.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I know I post tons of pics of this little 'guy', but for the purposes of identification, I figured I'd post a few more, for visual identification purposes, if it helps any:


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)




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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I have Nibbler and Looksie, who we know is a hen from her feral days raising youngsters on our balcony. They haven't paired up because we keep them separated. Looksie beats the tar out of him (or attempts to) every time she sees him. We think it's because she has post-PMV issues with head-turning and disorientation and is probably caught off-guard by Nibbler. They met up once by mistake. Nibbler approached amicably, looked her over, and seemed like he just wanted to play... Looksie went all Tasmanian devil on the poor bird, who just ducked and cowered until he was rescued.

They're just not compatible... lol.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

most pigeons will defend what they see as their territory, that is normal. if you are patient Im sure they could be a pair at some point if you put them in neutral territory and watched them. or putting their cages side by side..they could pair up just seeing each other and less handling by who they see as their human mate. having a mate is a huge part of what pigeons do and is natural for them and I think they may be happier in the long run with another pigeon as their mate. even if it is the same sex.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> most pigeons will defend what they see as their territory, that is normal. if you are patient Im sure they could be a pair at some point if you put them in neutral territory and watched them. or putting their cages side by side..they could pair up just seeing each other and less handling by who they see as their human mate. having a mate is a huge part of what pigeons do and is natural for them and I think they may be happier in the long run with another pigeon as their mate. even if it is the same sex.


That's just the thing, though... Looksie defends the whole house. Upstairs, she will bite if disturbed, downstairs, she will bite, basement, bite, kitchen... anywhere. I really just think her disorientation issues stop her from being aware of what's going on around her, and so she lashes out to protect herself.

On the other hand, I also don't want them to pair up just in case they are male and female. I can't find a vet in the area who will take in pigeons, so I'd rather not get complications with egg-binding and calcium deficiencies in the mix. Looksie seems very happy just to watch herself in the mirrors around the house... Nibbler is happy to be around his people. At least, I think they both look very content with themselves.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

draykie said:


> That's just the thing, though... Looksie defends the whole house. Upstairs, she will bite if disturbed, downstairs, she will bite, basement, bite, kitchen... anywhere. I really just think her disorientation issues stop her from being aware of what's going on around her, and so she lashes out to protect herself.
> 
> On the other hand, I also don't want them to pair up just in case they are male and female. I can't find a vet in the area who will take in pigeons, so I'd rather not get complications with egg-binding and calcium deficiencies in the mix. Looksie seems very happy just to watch herself in the mirrors around the house... Nibbler is happy to be around his people. At least, I think they both look very content with themselves.


Indroductions always have to be slow and having them next to each other in cages would do this. but it is up to you, pigeons are flock birds and do like to be with others of their kind. and they can have squabbles but that does not mean they won't get along at some point. she is being a pigeon her acting out that way is normal..not because she has been sick in the past.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

So we've switched to head pets and scritches for Nibbler, which 'he' seems to enjoy just as much as the back scratches, but without exposing his vent for my dad. It is apparently also possible to fool him into thinking he's being pet by switching mid-pet... to a sock. Yes, a sock was put on his head while he was cooing and wing-twitching for pets, and he... continued to do so! Until he didn't. And walked away with a sock riding on him. Which was funny.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

draykie said:


> So we've switched to head pets and scritches for Nibbler, which 'he' seems to enjoy just as much as the back scratches, but without exposing his vent for my dad. It is apparently also possible to fool him into thinking he's being pet by switching mid-pet... to a sock. Yes, a sock was put on his head while he was cooing and wing-twitching for pets, and he... continued to do so! Until he didn't. And walked away with a sock riding on him. Which was funny.


I think he should be understood as a pigeon and learn what his behaviors really mean..not used as spectacle for laughs. They usually can make humans laugh or chuckle by just watching them without setting them up to look silly.

IMO, he needs a pigeon mate and some respect, not a hand or a sock and soda pop tops for a hat.. but that is just me.


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## DeeDee's Mom (Dec 17, 2011)

I think the soda pop hat is adorable. My granddaughter plays with DeeDee, our ringneck dove, when she plays with her dolls, and she "dresses" him in doll hats, etc. DeeDee doesn't mind and seems to just like to play with her. He carries the dolls around (they are very small ones...Polly Pocket type) and flips them off the table, etc.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> I think he should be understood as a pigeon and learn what his behaviors really mean..not used as spectacle for laughs. They usually can make humans laugh or chuckle by just watching them without setting them up to look silly.
> 
> IMO, he needs a pigeon mate and some respect, not a hand or a sock and soda pop tops for a hat.. but that is just me.


I'm not using him as a 'spectacle for laughs' and I'll thank you not to assume I have no respect for him. He is well taken care of and from the behaviour he exhibits, quite happy and quite content the way he is. He was rescued very young, so he never really learned how to fight another pigeon properly, and fights between him and the hen get very intense very quickly. I am not willing to subject either of them to that stress on a regular basis.

I have seen more than one instance on this forum alone of pigeon folks keeping birds together that do not fancy each other as mates, but seem much happier 'mated' with their humans, and that is how they keep them. I liken his intelligence to that of any other bird's - he may not know exactly what's going on or what's being said, but he knows he is loved, he knows he is always being praised for being such a good companion, and he knows he is involved in family affairs just as much as the rest of the household is. If he ever showed any signs of obvious distress, I would change my habits, but he does not and unless I am risking his health (such as the possibility of egg production being stimulated by back petting, which has stopped), I will not either.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

draykie said:


> I'm not using him as a 'spectacle for laughs' and I'll thank you not to assume I have no respect for him. He is well taken care of and from the behaviour he exhibits, quite happy and quite content the way he is. He was rescued very young, so he never really learned how to fight another pigeon properly, and fights between him and the hen get very intense very quickly. I am not willing to subject either of them to that stress on a regular basis.
> 
> I have seen more than one instance on this forum alone of pigeon folks keeping birds together that do not fancy each other as mates, but seem much happier 'mated' with their humans, and that is how they keep them. I liken his intelligence to that of any other bird's - he may not know exactly what's going on or what's being said, but he knows he is loved, he knows he is always being praised for being such a good companion, and he knows he is involved in family affairs just as much as the rest of the household is. If he ever showed any signs of obvious distress, I would change my habits, but he does not and unless I am risking his health (such as the possibility of egg production being stimulated by back petting, which has stopped), I will not either.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, everyone.


as I said.. that is just me, I did not under estimate you're devotion, just saying to remember he is a pigeon first and a pet second. If you interact with him that much then a human mate will have to do for him. they can live a long life so I hope someone is up to it for at least 15 years.  good luck with you're pigeons.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> as I said.. that is just me, I did not under estimate you're devotion, just saying to remember he is a pigeon first and a pet second. If you interact with him that much then a human mate will have to do for him. they can live a long life so I hope someone is up to it for at least 15 years.  good luck with you're pigeons.


We're in it for the long run with both of these little ones. 10, 15, 20, 25 years or more? I hope so.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Nibbler decided the issue for us today. Last night, she laid an egg in her sleeping cage.

Since both our pigeons are females, I have no worry of the egg being fertile, so it's been put in her nest for her to sit on, and if the second arrives, that one will be too. Hopefully she doesn't start going on a laying frenzy and compromising calcium levels. Is there anything besides offering oyster shells and liquid calcium in the water that can assist with that?


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## Diatom (Mar 14, 2012)

Have some boiled eggs for dinner, save the shells, dry them and crush them up. You can add larger bits to her grit and mash up the rest into a powder and sprinkle it into her food. Chicken eggshells have the most bioavailable form of calcium they say, plus added minerals that should be good for your girlie.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

That's a great idea too. We have been giving them crushed, dried chicken eggshells in their grit and food in the past, but stopped for a while when it seemed to be making droppings less common. I think a return to that regimen would be a great idea now that Ms. Nibbler is laying eggs.

I've picked up a calcium + vit D supplement from the drug store that we used to add to the birds' water, but forget the dilution to mix it in at. The birds also have a habit of taking baths in their drinking water... is that an issue if there's ACV and/or calcium stuff added in?


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## Shadowringneck23 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Eggs*

I would have to assume that the obsessive coo would indicate a male, although exhibiting female courtship behaviors would obviously mean otherwise. I recommend STOPPING the petting as this will stimulate egg production. If you are too late, or she does lay an egg, you will know.


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