# Baby pigeon with PMV, please I need help !



## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hello, this is my 1st post here, I'm from France so my english is not so good, please excuse me for the language mistakes 

So here is my story : I've already taken care of injured/ill adult/young city pigeons with the help of my very nice vet and all the forums, I really took all the information, advices that I could.
I live in a small city that hates pigeons, they are disturbed everywhere they try to nest, they put sounds of birds crying and alerting so that no pigeon, crows, etc can stand on the city buildings, people poison them, the city council call a person with falcons to hunt them, etc...
I have to hide to feed the pigeons and give them grit so they disturb less the buildings because city police follow me to catch me doing it  ! People feeding cats have same issues, they even put a guy to court..

Last year i noticed a couple nested in my balcony, 2 babies hatched and with a bit of help, they grew very well.
I bought fake eggs and was waiting for her to do the new eggs on the balcony but missed it ! She had layed the on the other balcony witch i never open... so I was too late, 1 egg hatched, the other one broke the shell the same day but died before getting fully out... the survivor grew normaly.

I managed to swap fake eggs during 6 months but she got the trick and hid a new nest between the wall and a flower pot... i saw it too late, when they already had hatched, 2 weeks ago. They had very well taken care of the last one.
I went on holiday and when I came back, I wasn't prepared for what I saw, it litteraly broke my heart 😱😨😭

One baby pigeon standing on his dead brother, squeaking calling for his parents, falling over it, and climbing again, ants flies maggots poops and feathers everywhere.
I cleaned that as quickly as I could, gave water with electrolytes to the baby because it was red hot outside and i saw his droppings were very watery and he had empty crop I put some seeds on the balcony because I know the parents always come very quickly to eat, and I waited... hours later, the father came, ate and never went near the squeaking poor thing...

So I took it. Put it in a warm quiet place Gave him warm water with apple vinegar and fed him with formula. I realised he didn't act as the other pigeons, he was losing balance, never moved his wings and was acting like he didn't see anything.. he was swallowing alot of air in his crop when i gave him formula so i made balls with it and then gave him water. 
The day after he shown more neurological symptoms, his head tilting in a funny way, walking backwards in circles when stressed.. so I decided not to call the vet.. here in France if it's pmv suspicion they have to kill the bird, send it to laboratory so they analyse the body and if it is indeed PMV, they hunt down all the pigeons of the city and kill them...

So here we are, my mother brother and I, with our little secret named Kiwi, like the australian dark bird who never flies.
We have had him for 5 days now. He is so so skinny i have never seen that ! He has some good feathers but can't reach under the wings to preen so all his feathers underneath wings and tail are long tubular shaped. Should i release them from the tubes ?
when i touch his wings or tail he stresses and starts being like in the exorsist movie with his face upside down and running backwards in circle 
I think I've read all i could about the subject but have so many questions 🥺🤯 PMV + young having to grow up, build his skelleton and organs how will medecine affect it ?
Normally i should introduce seeds at his age no ? But i'm affraid it's too hard for him to digest and not rich enough ?
I give him " nutribird A19 +brebiotics + digestive enzyms + organic acids " there is already plenty of vitamins, calcium, d3 inside the formula but is it enough ?
He is on antibiotic "septotryl" the vet had given me for another young pigeon with same symptoms ( appart from neurological ) so i though i might try it and i have to say thay he is starting looking a bit better today at day 3 of treatment.
I give him "sodiazot" to help the liver every time i see yellow urates one drop in his water and next poop has white urates so this is nice.
I know he must have worms but he really looks too weak to deworm it, or should I ?
I put a powder on him because he had tons of lice and was very itchy.
He is drinking and pooping a lot of water, how can I help the kidney ?
Appart from all the trouble he has he is very sweet and very looking for company and very kind with me, and suddenly falls asleep in my arms even when eating !
He tries to preen me and the little unicorn plush I put in his box and he always stays close to the unicorn poor little thing ! I keep on imagining him standing on his dead brother... with adults ignoring him.

Do you think I can save him ? Do you think he will suffer his whole life ? Will he be disabled his whole life ?
How is he supposed to develop propperly being in a dark box ? He always closes his eyes when there is too much light ? How can he learn things youngsters should learn and explore while being in a box with a plush 🤔
I don't even know it he sees something, it's hard not to be able to see the vet..

Thanks if you managed to read the big story I'm sorry it was so long and not in good english.
I hope you know what I can do to save him or if you think i shouldn't fight to keep him alive because he will suffer too much, tell me please, he has suffered alot already..

Thanks again,
Sarah and Kiwi


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Night Update
So I woke up to give him water and change his heating bottle and I feel discouraged..
The neurological symptoms are getting worse  he really needs me to hold him otherwise he keeps spinning round and round.. when I block him, he instantly calms down and starts cuddling, when I left him without the towels to keep him straight and the unicorn to hold his head he started putting his head between his feet, tries to stretch but with disabled wings, can't properly stretch, loses balance and he falls on his back and would stay stuck like tortoise with only head and feet shaking.

The droppings have changed too but I don't know if it's better or not.
They were a light brown/orange snake with white urates, in a pond of liquid urine (clear). And now they are the same colour but the feces is not a snake anymore, more like a mushy dyarhea in bigger quantity but the amount of urine discreased to a smaller ring of water and the amount of urate increased and still bright white.
As I said I have no clue if it's better or not.
Also the colour of the feces bothers me, is it normal on formula ?
I'm wondering if i should stop the antibiotics.
Is it really PMV ? Will the symptons go worse and worse until the end of the 6 weeks like I read ? How can it get worse ?
I don't think he will make it if that's the case.

Sorry for the questions I add to an already long post, it's just me not being able to sleep with questions and sadness in my mind.
I know you can't do miracles although I'd love it hehe anyways I wanted to thank you because you helped me save lots of pigeons for years now that I read this forum and the precious advices it contains.
Thank you


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Get him a small cage and cover half with a blanket to make him feel more secure. Put the cage on a table as they feel safer in a high spot.If

Are the antibiotics for bacterial infections? Are you giving the correct dosage? If so, this will only help if he has salmonella. This can cause the same issues as PMV when the brain gets affected.

If he has PMV, stress will make things worse. So keep him as stress free as possible. That's why I suggested a small cage. His droppings will be watery with a long tube of faeces as the kidneys get affected by the virus. 

So he is 2 to 3 weeks old? Don't deworm him. Keep on giving him the formula, this has all the vitamins he needs.

Can you get antibiotics from a pharmacy? I would rather switch to amoxycillin. Do a 10 day course and if there's improvement in the droppings and the neurological issues continue to do a 21 day course. That is the time period for treating salmonella.

If he has PMV, he will either recover spontaneous or have neurological issues for the rest of his life. This one you will need to keep.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi thanks for your answer, it's much appreciated !

First I'm sorry if you thought he is not in a contained place my english is bad. He is in a cat travel box sitting on a high table In a spare room I put inside a round comfortable bathroom mat going up to the sides so he cannot bump his head. The mat is on top of a warm water bottle. I put a blancket on half of it and closed the curtains in the room.
I only open the box when needed ( when i have to change the warm warter bottle, or when i need to feed him or give him to drink. 

- He stresses when :
* I change the warm water pad or absorbing pad.
* I clean his bottom of dried droppings stuck in feathers.
* I try to preene the feathers under wings or tail they are in long tubes.

Is it okay or do you think a bigger cage would be better ?

- The antibiotic i give is for gastro intestinal infection for mini cat/dog.
One 79 mg tablet wich i cut in 4 pieces according to vet.

Substance(s) active(s) :


[TD]Triméthoprime ................[/TD]
[TD]10 mg[/TD]​
[TD]Sulfaméthoxypyridazine ...........[/TD]
[TD]50 mg[/TD]​
I can get the amoxiciline only in the vet ( or human doctor if I pretend it's for me ) and the vet will want to see the pigeon and I can't risk it 😞

Yes he is nearly 3 weeks old now I give him formula in balls in the beak and give warm water only in my arms.
I have to guide his beak otherwise he totally misses the dish. I never leave water with him.
How often can I give him electrolytes ? Is it dangerous to give too much ?

His wings are stiff and it looks painful/stressful if I touch them.
His eyes are 80% of the time closed and he never opens them wide.

Thank you again for your answer !
Do you think I could tell the vet it is salmonella and hope he won't test it ? It is risky..

Thanks,
Sarah and Kiwi


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I just want to make sure you are not overdosing on the meds. Do the vet know that the dosage is for a 3 week old pigeon and not an adult?

No need for electrolytes if he is well hydrated.

Are there any swelling on the wings? Salmonella can also cause this. Surely the vet won't just put him down. You are the paying customer.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Kiwi sleeping all the time
Hi thanks for your answer okay no more electrolytes !

He gave the medecine to me 2 months ago when i had a young pigeon throwing up everything i gave him to eat. He was maybe 2 weeks older than Kiwi. And i force fed him defrosted peas. I didn't have this formula at the time and bought it but he died before i recieved it.
You are right i should stop this antibiotic if not sure.

If the vet wants to test him for PMV, which he is obliged to by the law if there is a suspicion of this desease, the lab will tell the authorities if it is positive, again by the law. Kiwi could get away if i'm able to take him back home before the results come and I lie saying he died at home but all the pigeons of 10km arround my city will be shot down.
They already have in my city in 2015 see the newspaper. Sorry it's in french but i can google translate if you want. They did massacre them...









Pigeons morts de Cazères : c'est la maladie de Newcastle


Une paramyxovirose, dite aussi «maladie de Newcastle» : voilà ce qui frappe depuis plusieurs semaines plusieurs dizaines de pigeons de Cazères, on parle d'environ 150 à ce jour sur les 7 000 à 8 000 recensés sur les...




www.google.com





Maybe I can risk to bring him Kiwi and tell him only salmonella paratyphoid gives stiff wings and pray that he won't look any further, what do you think ?

Eventhough I am the paying customer, this is the only vet that kindly accepted to look at the pigeons I brought. I went to 13 other ones before and they never wanted to see them.

Thank you so much for your patient answers it really means a lot to me !

Sarah and Kiwi


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

No, don't take him to the vet. Too big a risk. Can't you order amoxycillin online from a pigeon products supplier? I know Medpet has a home test that one can order and you can do the test yourself. That is for salmonella. Don't know if you will be able to get this in your country.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Lovely I never thought of that, I don't find the auto test but found this instead Avian salmonellosis - Birds - Genimal Biotechnologies
Just they are on holiday and with post time i won't get the results before 10 days I guess. 
Not sure I can make a cloacal swab too lol will fresh poop do the trick ?
Thanks a lot you made my day shinnier 😍


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You have to use the droppings.The test from Medpet: you add the droppings to a solution, shake well and then put a drop on the tester. Then you will see if it's positive or not. 

Why don't you only take a few fresh droppings to the vet. Tell him the droppings were from a pigeon that you suspected had salmonella and died. But you just need confirmation regarding this. Also tell him you only have funds for a salmonella test, nothing else. You won't be able to get antibiotics from him, but at least then you will know if your baby has salmonella.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Oh yes brilliant thank you, i will do that on monday now. I keep you informed thank you so much Marina you're a real angel







droppings








cloudy eye


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Sweet baby! Keep us updated.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hello pigeon lovers ! 

I have the feeling that Kiwi is looking a bit better, his turning round with his head low and tail up happens less and less often and he sleep a little less too.

I'm massaging his wings because they are so stiff and he manages to move his left wing 1cm now !
When he stretches he doesn't (always) fall.

His dropping are a little less watery too.

Now the bad news : 

- he has more energy to fight when I put little balls of formula in his beak, even got the trick to spit them when he can ! Maybe it's the antibiotics lowering his appetite ?

- he feels itchy, scratches a lot and plucks feathers. I found 7 today and they all look like this 









So I guess he has mites or lice even if I put some rhodeo powder from the vet.. any idea on how i can help him ? A lot of feathers under his tail and wings look really bad, almost like blood feathers.

Thanks for reading 😉

Sarah and Kiwi


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

It's actually a good sign that he is fighting you when getting fed. Sounds as if he is getting stronger. You can also handfeed him some defrosted green peas. After a day of handfeeding you can leave a bowl of peas with him. They quickly learn to eat peas by themselves. The droppings will change when eating peas, so don't be alarmed when that happens.

Karbadust can be used for external parasites and is safe. Work the powder into the feathers, esp under the wings. Just be careful around the eyes.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi Marina thank you I will try the peas, maybe he'll like them more ! 
I will try the dust I have some but it's quite hard to do under the wings because they are really stiff i cannot stretch them and he starts the exorsist running thing when I touch under.
He keeps the wings really high, he looks like a chicken lol


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He is looking much better than the first photo you posted.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes I am really happy ! He looks good and has put on some weight ! 
Surely the antibiotics and formula made it ! 

I cannot buy the powder you were talking about... it is forbidden here.
I went to the vet and told him about a young with mite/lice and he gave me strobghold spot on for kitten and told me to put a tiny drop under the wings.

I gave him also droppings to send to the lab and test for salmonellosis and test witch antibiotic can work.

I gave him some peas and he fought a bit less.
I tried to put seeds, peas, even tiny balls of formula in a dish and played with them, "pecked" them wich my finger but he never cared. He only reacts when I touch him or talk to him.
I think he is blind... I read PMV can do that, could salmonellosis make him blind too ? Can it go back to normal if I find a proper treatment ? 




















Thank you to much for your interest !


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've never read about PMV and salmonella making them blind. What happens if you move your hand in front of his eyes? Does the other eye look the same? If he is blind, then maybe that might explain the neurological symptoms.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Mmm, yes both the same... he doesn't move when I bring my finger to his eyes slowly. I even touched his open eye by accident, he closed his eye lids on contact lol...
I thought pmv could make them temporarily blind, sorry for my mistake.
If he's proven to be salmonella he'll be safe going to the vet and he'll check his eyes. 

Should I buy probiotics, vitamins and minerals if I feed him peas ? Or should i still give him formula in the evening for him to get everything ? I incorporated a little bit of soaked dove seeds into the formula balls yesterday and he digested them good. Should I put small budgies grit into the balls to help him digest ? 

Sorry for all the questions hehe and thank you again for your replies they are priceless !


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi! Welcome to PT and thanks so much for helping Kiwi and all the other pigeons 😊!

I have a blind pigeon, Geordi (we adopted him in summer 2015 from my French vet). I read your thread and saw the pics. Some of Kiwi's behaviors make me think about Geordi: he spins in circle too, he moves his head in a "strange way" (because he carefully listens to any noise), etc etc.

Do both eyes look cloudy? Blindness could explain some of his behaviors or in all cases could worsen/exacerbate some of the neurological symptoms of a possible disease.
In any case, cloudiness is a sign that something is wrong with his eye.

Eye disorders could have many different causes: diseases (yes, even salmonella could cause eye issues and also blindness), vitamin deficiency, trauma, genetic, etc. Geordi is blind since his birth.

I attach a link about eye disorders in birds:






Common Eye Disorders in Birds | PetMD


Birds can suffer from many different eye disorders. They can be due to an eye injury, or possibly an infection to the area. Occasionally, eye disorders are symptoms of another underlying medical problem.



www.petmd.com





If you feed him peas you can regularly give him supplements (a complete vitamin supplement, probiotics, a water soluble calcium supplement, etc. As alternative to a water soluble calcium supplement you could buy a cuttlebone, cut it in small pieces with scissors and hand feed a few small pieces of it), just follow the directions for use. If you need an advice I can suggest you good supplements available in France.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

No need for grit now. You can actually give him 50% peas and 50% formula balls. That way he will get some moisture from the peas and vitamins from the formula balls.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks marina I will feed him 50/50 then !

Hi Columbina thanks for your answer! 
I'm glad to see that Geordi looks happy even if he's blind. I will have a look at your story and how you manage to get him a nice life.
Thanks for the link it's very interesting. I don't think it's genetic for kiwi as the squabs from other nestings ( same parents ) didn't have eye problem.
Maybe it could have been from standing on the corpse and then scratching his head. I really don't know... 
I don't think things can go back to normal with his eyes now that he has cataract on both 😞 I hope it's not my fault...
I'll be glad if you tell me the names of the supplements for when he will eat seeds on his own, if that ever happens lol

Thanks again for the advices !
Kiwi and Sarah


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

No need to thank me 😊.

I talked about Geordi in many old threads. If you have any questions feel free to ask, I will be glad to share my experience! Yes, he is a happy bird!

I am sure it's not your fault. I attach a link about cataracts in birds:









Cataracts in Birds


Note that not all cloudy eyes are symptomatic of cataracts. Older pets may suffer from nuclear sclerosis, which is a normal change of aging and does not




www.beautyofbirds.com





About supplements:

- probiotics: Vitarégul Francodex



https://www.zoomalia.com/animalerie/francodex-vitaregul-pot-de-150g-aide-au-maintien-de-l-equilibre-digestif-p-24114.html



It has the same composition of Oceproven Virbac (which was suggested by my vet) but it's for bigger amounts of water so it's more practical and cheaper.



https://mapharmanaturelle.com/it/Produits-pharmacie-en-ligne/prodotti/veterinario/oiseaux-it/oceprovenexocediarb10gpdr/




- vitamins: Omni-vit Oropharma



https://www.versele-laga.com/en/fr/oropharma/products/oropharma-omnivit



- water soluble calcium supplement: Calci-Lux



https://www.versele-laga.com/en/de/oropharma/products/oropharma-calcilux



- liver supplement: Avi digest.

I attach a pic because I can't find it online.
It's a very good and helpful product, I bought it in a coopérative agricole. My pigeon Londo was in a very bad condition and it helped her a lot.
It contains artichokes and other plants. 

Recently I bought another product (Avi cox équilibre intestinal) from the same brand but I haven't tried it yet so I can't give you an opinion.

Geordi can't eat enough seeds on his own so I have to hand feed him twice a day. In the bad case I will be glad to explain how we hand feed him seeds.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Wow I wasn't expecting such a detailed list ! Thanks again 🤩 I read a few threads but I haven't finished. Geordy is really cute and I surely will have questions.

I went to the vet today for dog food and we talked a bit about pigeon diseases, especially about PMV and he told me that he thought what they did about the pigeon PMV was terrible and that he personally would never ask a laboratory to search for this disease on a wild or pet pigeon because they might slaughter hundreds of them. 
Yay 🥲 
I nearly said I loved him at that moment haha 
So... i brought him Kiwi and here is what he said :

- He has uveitis in both eyes. And I have to put him some cream on them twice a day. He said he thinks he can recover sight. 🥳

- The wings are wrong. Like they haven't developped well, maybe a nutrition deficiency and he can't stretch them at all. Which is weird because the parents did eat good seeds and even pellets with vitamins and all.. so it might be the infection or virus he had... anyways, vet thinks this wont heal and he will never fly so I guess we chose his name well.

He said that otherwise his life is not in danger anymore. His droppings look good, nothing wrong in the beak, trachea, crop. No parasites. he is very energetic and he is thin but not starving.









Poop of the day, I am so proud lol


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's great. Good to have the vet on your side. I hope she keeps on improving. Keep us updated plse.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

You're welcome ☺.

Great! Your vet seems an excellent person and a knowledgeable doctor! Lol I would love him too 😁. 

I really hope that Kiwi will recover his sight!
What cream did the vet give you? During the years the vet gave me different ophthalmic creams. It could be useful to know another one (in case I have never used it). 

Even if he will never be able to fly he can have a wonderful life. I have a broken wing pigeon, Apple, and I can assure you that she is a super happy bird (lol, yes, I have a gang of disabled pigeons 😅). Btw, Geordi thanks you a lot! 

Yes, the poop looks perfect 👍 ! I'm also happy to know that even everything else (throat, crop, etc) is ok! 

Keep us updated!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, thanks both of you for the good vibes !
The cream is for skin and ear, weird I know but vet said it's the same, it's not a problem ? It's called 
Cortanmycétine Crème. 5g
- Substances actives pour 1g :
Chloramphénicol ..... 40,00 mg
Prednisolone ..... 1,60 mg

Excipient(s) :
Nitrate de phénylmercure ..... 0,02 mg
His eyes look less cloudy but he is still blind 








What do you think ? 








He sleeps a lot and when awake, he doesn't move much, he only stretches a bit and preens his feathers. 
I hope he will be more active when he feels better. 
I hope it will not impact his developpement.









Now he manages to sleep with his belly on the floor and his head up ! 🥰
Before it looked more like this, always on his feet his head low and tail up.









He still turns in circle a lot when stressed or bored ? But he doesn't lose his balance so much.

I need to trim a bit his nails because my arms look like I've faced the devil's cat 😆 and it might handicap him walking and keeping balance.

Thanks for your interest and precious advices I think we saved him thanks to you, I'm glad I asked here


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I used too cortanmycétine cream but for a different issue (cloacal prolapse).
Once my vet gave me an ophtalmic cream (FRADEXAM) for treating wounds so I suppose it's not a problem 😁.
How long will you have to apply it?

He looks much better in the first "sleeping" pic! That's great! 

Geordi often turns in circle, flies backwards and has great difficulties in walking straight... So I think that turning a lot is a "normal thing" even for Kiwi. 

Lol, I know what you mean about the devil's cat 😜. I call my birds Nightmare 😝. You can use a common nail file and if it is not enough even a nail clipper.


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## Magnus rawstron (Jul 20, 2021)

Selphiechen said:


> Hello, this is my 1st post here, I'm from France so my english is not so good, please excuse me for the language mistakes
> 
> So here is my story : I've already taken care of injured/ill adult/young city pigeons with the help of my very nice vet and all the forums, I really took all the information, advices that I could.
> I live in a small city that hates pigeons, they are disturbed everywhere they try to nest, they put sounds of birds crying and alerting so that no pigeon, crows, etc can stand on the city buildings, people poison them, the city council call a person with falcons to hunt them, etc...
> ...


I found a juvenile red under a motorway bridge with similar neurological and head and neck problems, he had very few baby feathers, so was close to being old enough to fly. He was resting his head on his back, upside down for most of time,


Selphiechen said:


> Hello, this is my 1st post here, I'm from France so my english is not so good, please excuse me for the language mistakes
> 
> So here is my story : I've already taken care of injured/ill adult/young city pigeons with the help of my very nice vet and all the forums, I really took all the information, advices that I could.
> I live in a small city that hates pigeons, they are disturbed everywhere they try to nest, they put sounds of birds crying and alerting so that no pigeon, crows, etc can stand on the city buildings, people poison them, the city council call a person with falcons to hunt them, etc...
> ...


He is starved and dehydrated, I found one with similar conditions. Running around in circles, head upside down resting on his back, extremely skinny through dehydration and starvation. I took him to pigeon vet, they kept him for three days, only medicine they gave was for dehydration. He was ill when I got him back, head upside down, running in circles, five to six weeks later he had fully recovered, third attempt at flight was successful, after ten minute flight with my other pigeon, he flew in direction to where I found him and I never saw him again.

When I found him he was almost old enough to fly, first two attempts to get him flying he dropped into river, I live in a boat, third attempt at flight and he made it. Pigeons are very resilient against illness, I believe you're baby will survive, I wouldn't release into that city though, teach him to fly in a city where he has better chance at life, if that is possible.
The vets told me it looked like he had been starved and dehydrated for more than a week.
Hand rearing a pigeon from that young age of youres, he will love you and will not leave you.
I hand reared an abandoned female baby and she will not leave me. The wild males have stopped trying to impress her, because she doesn't like pigeons as much as people.
When her brother died in my home I keep her with me everywhere in my home.
Hemp seeds are her favourite food!


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## Magnus rawstron (Jul 20, 2021)

I thought nobody else had replied to you, I wouldn't have given that lengthy story I'f I'd have seen the other people's comments.
Over here in England in the 1980s every yr we had the big race from Nantes in France, have they made that illegal too?


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

Selphiechen said:


> Hi thanks for your answer, it's much appreciated !
> 
> First I'm sorry if you thought he is not in a contained place my english is bad. He is in a cat travel box sitting on a high table In a spare room I put inside a round comfortable bathroom mat going up to the sides so he cannot bump his head. The mat is on top of a warm water bottle. I put a blancket on half of it and closed the curtains in the room.
> I only open the box when needed ( when i have to change the warm warter bottle, or when i need to feed him or give him to drink.
> ...


This makes me very upset.
For starters, why are French people so cruel to biodiversity? Do they not understand without animals there is no Earth. Earth is biodiverse. What did the birds do to people that make them so crazy nut psycho ATTITUDE towards highly INTELLIGENT pigeon. One of the smartest animals by far? I think that this pandemic is part PUNISHMENT for French foolish troublemakers. I always say 'what goes around comes around'. Part of this could be the Catholic issue. Yes, I'm getting into details here. A church that's most HYPOCRITICAL, pedophilieacs, liars, brainwashers and French people are no better than birds. Firstly, French need to get their acts together w LAWS and arresting the losers who hurt pigeons minding their BUSINESS. This is ATROCIOUS. 
The bird should have more contact w you so you can speak softly and be affectionate w bird. This is awful horrible situation. Can you run for city council and change town policy??? This bird w unicorn is just soooo precious. There was a dog here who kept stealing a purple unicorn from a variety store. He came in and kept STEALING it. The police finally bought it for him.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> This makes me very upset.
> For starters, why are French people so cruel to biodiversity? Do they not understand without animals there is no Earth. Earth is biodiverse. What did the birds do to people that make them so crazy nut psycho ATTITUDE towards highly INTELLIGENT pigeon. One of the smartest animals by far? I think that this pandemic is part PUNISHMENT for French foolish troublemakers. I always say 'what goes around comes around'. Part of this could be the Catholic issue. Yes, I'm getting into details here. A church that's most HYPOCRITICAL, pedophilieacs, liars, brainwashers and French people are no better than birds. Firstly, French need to get their acts together w LAWS and arresting the losers who hurt pigeons minding their BUSINESS. This is ATROCIOUS.
> The bird should have more contact w you so you can speak softly and be affectionate w bird. This is awful horrible situation. Can you run for city council and change town policy??? This bird w unicorn is just soooo precious. There was a dog here who kept stealing a purple unicorn from a variety store. He came in and kept STEALING it. The police finally bought it for him.


Also, stay in touch. I take my birds to WILD BIRD FUND IN NYC. One of my birds attacked in the head by a crazy squirrel. I used best ointments and took her the next day. The squirrel bit me hard on my toe also.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> Also, stay in touch. I take my birds to WILD BIRD FUND IN NYC. One of my birds attacked in the head by a crazy squirrel. I used best ointments and took her the next day. The squirrel bit me hard on my toe also.


This bird is 'Buckaroo'


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> This bird is 'Buckaroo'


You will most likely keep Kiwi due to health issues. Also, ANIMALS LOVE G O O D QUALITY MUSIC. HARMONIOUS SUCH AS JAZZ(PAT METHENY, BUDDHA BAR 10 YEARS, ANYTHING QUALITY).


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> This makes me very upset.
> For starters, why are French people so cruel to biodiversity? Do they not understand without animals there is no Earth. Earth is biodiverse. What did the birds do to people that make them so crazy nut psycho ATTITUDE towards highly INTELLIGENT pigeon. One of the smartest animals by far? I think that this pandemic is part PUNISHMENT for French foolish troublemakers. I always say 'what goes around comes around'. Part of this could be the Catholic issue. Yes, I'm getting into details here. A church that's most HYPOCRITICAL, pedophilieacs, liars, brainwashers and French people are no better than birds. Firstly, French need to get their acts together w LAWS and arresting the losers who hurt pigeons minding their BUSINESS. This is ATROCIOUS.
> The bird should have more contact w you so you can speak softly and be affectionate w bird. This is awful horrible situation. Can you run for city council and change town policy??? This bird w unicorn is just soooo precious. There was a dog here who kept stealing a purple unicorn from a variety store. He came in and kept STEALING it. The police finally bought it for him.


ALSO SELFISH PEOPLE IN FRANCE. WITH THE HAIR SALINS AND BIRDS GETTING THEIR FEET TANGLED. WHY SO MUCH CRUELTY? A SICKNESS AMONGST THE FRENCH.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi Magnus, thanks a lot for your your reply, it wasn't too long and very instructive, and much appreciated 🐦🦄 I hope Kiwi won't hate me for force feeding him and putting cream on his eyes. I'm massaging a bit his wings but I'm scared of making it sore. 
Don't worry the pigeon racing is legal and very nice.
There are a lot of pigeon fanciers, pigeon shows etc.

Hi Fitandchic I don't want to enter the "french catholic pandemic" conspiracy because I don't agree at all and I don't think it's a place to discuss this...
Anyway I want to clarify some points : 

- All towns are not so bad for pigeons. In most places they don't care about them and let them live their lives, letting people feed them.
There are towns where they build contraceptive dovecotes. a place for them to sleep, make nest, eat good seeds and have grit. There they swap real eggs with fake ones and only let them have 1 hatch a year per couple. I wish we could have this here but I guess we'll have to wait for another city mayor.

- A lot of people see pigeons like rats and this is not only in France. Let me tell you that rats are really intelligent and sweet too but can bring diseases. And that's what people fear. Disease, dirty poops, damage on the buildings.

- The french law for PMV was made for farms. Like if there is avian flu in a chicken farm, they will kill all the chicken in this farm and put all the bird farms around in quarantine.

- About the hairdresser putting hair outside, I believe this is just by ignorance. In fact I informed one about this danger and she told me she did put them outside to help birds make their nests and she was horrified to learn what if does to pigeon feet. Of course she put's it in the garbage now.

Thanks for your advices though and it's true that Kiwi loves music, you seem to have a great relation with your pigeon I hope we can have the same Kiwi and I.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> This bird is 'Buckaroo'


You will most likely keep Kiwi due to health issues.


Selphiechen said:


> Hi Magnus, thanks a lot for your your reply, it wasn't too long and very instructive, and much appreciated 🐦🦄 I hope Kiwi won't hate me for force feeding him and putting cream on his eyes. I'm massaging a bit his wings but I'm scared of making it sore.
> Don't worry the pigeon racing is legal and very nice.
> There are a lot of pigeon fanciers, pigeon shows etc.
> 
> ...


Ok this is good to hear.
Regarding the info that>>>> pigeons, rats, spread illness>>>>fact is pigeons spread NO DISEASES. LOOK THIS UP ONLINE AND MANY THERE AND HERE ARE MISINFORMED. THIS IS FALSE. F A C T. POOP WORKS LIKE THIS>>> YOU'D HAVE TO BREATHE IN A PILE OF DRIED PIGEON POOP TO CATCH DISEASE. THIS IS ONLY WAY. PIGEONS ARE DEFENSELESS, HARMLESS, BOTTOM OF FOOD CHAIN. AND>>>THEY LOVE LEARNING, BONDING THROUGH FEEDING, SUPER AFFECTIONATE, KISSING PEOPLE WHO LOVE THEM, SUPER SOFT TO TOUCH. I NUZZLE MY NOSE IN SOME OF THEIR NECK FEATHERS, AND THEY SMELL SOOOOO GOOD!!!! ALL BIRDS SMELL GOOD.
YES ITS TROUBLING BECAUSE ARE SERIOUSLY MISINFORMED WHEN ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS G O O G L E T H I S!!!!! THANK YOU/MERCI.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> You will most likely keep Kiwi due to health issues.
> 
> Ok this is good to hear.
> Regarding the info that>>>> pigeons, rats, spread illness>>>>fact is pigeons spread NO DISEASES. LOOK THIS UP ONLINE AND MANY THERE AND HERE ARE MISINFORMED. THIS IS FALSE. F A C T. POOP WORKS LIKE THIS>>> YOU'D HAVE TO BREATHE IN A PILE OF DRIED PIGEON POOP TO CATCH DISEASE. THIS IS ONLY WAY. PIGEONS ARE DEFENSELESS, HARMLESS, BOTTOM OF FOOD CHAIN. AND>>>THEY LOVE LEARNING, BONDING THROUGH FEEDING, SUPER AFFECTIONATE, KISSING PEOPLE WHO LOVE THEM, SUPER SOFT TO TOUCH. I NUZZLE MY NOSE IN SOME OF THEIR NECK FEATHERS, AND THEY SMELL SOOOOO GOOD!!!! ALL BIRDS SMELL GOOD.
> YES ITS TROUBLING BECAUSE ARE SERIOUSLY MISINFORMED WHEN ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS G O O G L E T H I S!!!!! THANK YOU/MERCI.


So frustrating start educating people. Yes I get this ridiculousness also. Thanks for response.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

Rats and pigeons are separate animals. Rats because of living situation are more disease prone


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

People, its 2021, get informed!!!!! Right????


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> People, its 2021, get informed!!!!! Right????


And also, parrots and pigeons are pretty much the same, they cannot speak because of beak shape obviously. See if you can pull up this: BIRD BRAIN on NOVA. YOU WILL LEARN A TON. THE RAVEN/CROW IS PRECIOUS W ITS OWNER. SOOOOO CUTE


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> And also, parrots and pigeons are pretty much the same, they cannot speak because of beak shape obviously. See if you can pull up this: 'BIRD BRAIN' on NOVA. YOU WILL LEARN A TON. THE RAVEN/CROW IS PRECIOUS W ITS OWNER. SOOOOO CUTE


And 'THE GOLDEN EAGLE' ALSO NOVA.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

EDIT N°2 : Kiwi just vomitted his meal... 
I think I will use the dewormer. Do you think I give it without food ? 
Thank you.


EDIT :
I'm keeping close watch to his droppings and I just saw 15 or more small round white worms in the last one... still moving, so disgusting ! I have a pigeon dewormer called Téniverm 0,5 caps ( Lévamisole (chlorhydrate) 10,2 mg, Niclosamide 48,0 mg, ) which is for ascaris,capillaris and ténias.
It's 1 capsule for 0,5kg so I'm planning on giving half ? 
I know Kiwi is a bit young to be dewormed but if he had such a big amount in one dropping I,m affraid of what the worms can do to his tiny body. 
What do you think ?



Hi !
so Kiwi is doing good today. Eyes are wide open, not cloudy anymore and he is much more active but still blind 😞
Columbiana, the vet said 3 days twice a day for the cream and then call him to see if any improvement. So I will phone him tomorrow.
Does any of you know a natural remedy, cream, bath, etc to help Kiwi with his wings muscles that are always tensed, stiff. Just something to relax, soften his muscles because he goes nuts everytime I touch them.
Thanks 😀


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Garlic is a natural product that can be used for worms. Give her garlic water twice a week. If you are a bit wary of the dewormer. give her 1/4 of the capsule and see how she responds to that. You can always repeat later on.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi thanks Marina, 
Kiwi is fine now but it went really bad.
I didn't wait and gave him half of it.
I hope I didn't make a big mistake..


Big diarrhea with swimming worms 
do not watch if disgusted









hard night but he did normal droppings this morning I can't see any worm inside but will bring some to the vet.

I hope they haven't harmed the organs. It was all so sudden i've never seen that.

Thanks for the garlic tip I will give him from now on

This morning he has some air in the crop so i gave him fennel seed ( anise ) infusion.

Thank you


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## Alain123f (Aug 13, 2021)

Bonjour je suis tombé sur votre discussion
J’ai trouvé un pigeonneau a Paris il y a trois jours les mêmes symptômes que le vôtre
Ce matin son état général c’est vraiment dégradé et j’aurais aimé avoir quelque conseils
Il dort tout le temps, quand je le prends en main sa nuque se tord violemment sur le côté droit


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## Alain123f (Aug 13, 2021)




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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

** I did answer to Alain on private message because it's in french but if you want to help him I can translate as much as I can. **

So i went to the vet but he couldn't see Kiwi, I'll have to wait until monday it he still lives by then... He said it's good the eyes are less cloudy and that is have to make a 7 days treatment on cream because this cream does the surface and then goes deeper, he said to not lose hope, he can still recover sight.
He said it's good I dewormed immediately and that I will have to redo it in 15 days.
He also said that he would like to see some poops to make sure there isn't any other type of worm.

When I came back from the vet Kiwi was bad again... breathing very quickly with mouth open and shivering so bad !!??!! 
He also seems to see my fingers ? So weird ...
He finally calmed down and slept, with his head low and twisted.. so I left him to go food shopping. When I came back he was the same!
Now, every time I go in another room he does the same.
I'm afraid that he will collapse 😱

he can see something !
He touched my finger with his beak 10 times in a row when I presented it to him.

I swear this bird is going to kill me !

What can I do for his breath / shaking ?
I did spray some water on his back and he stopped. Maybe it is too hot ? I have no clue. I see nothing in is beak/throat.
I gave him a supplement for the liver too because his urates were becoming really yelllow.
He yawns a lot...
I hope it's not canker because I have nothing to treat him until monday.

Is there anything else I can do please ?

Every day I'm going high and low with him...

Kiwi and Sarah


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

Selphiechen said:


> EDIT :
> I'm keeping close watch to his droppings and I just saw 15 or more small round white worms in the last one... still moving, so disgusting ! I have a pigeon dewormer called Téniverm 0,5 caps ( Lévamisole (chlorhydrate) 10,2 mg, Niclosamide 48,0 mg, ) which is for ascaris,capillaris and ténias.
> It's 1 capsule for 0,5kg so I'm planning on giving half ?
> I know Kiwi is a bit young to be dewormed but if he had such a big amount in one dropping I,m affraid of what the worms can do to his tiny body.
> ...


This is awful. Keep up the amazing work.


Selphiechen said:


> Hi thanks Marina,
> Kiwi is fine now but it went really bad.
> I didn't wait and gave him half of it.
> I hope I didn't make a big mistake..
> ...


Oh my... poor baby. Just want to kiss her.


Selphiechen said:


> ** I did answer to Alain on private message because it's in french but if you want to help him I can translate as much as I can. **
> 
> So i went to the vet but he couldn't see Kiwi, I'll have to wait until monday it he still lives by then... He said it's good the eyes are less cloudy and that is have to make a 7 days treatment on cream because this cream does the surface and then goes deeper, he said to not lose hope, he can still recover sight.
> He said it's good I dewormed immediately and that I will have to redo it in 15 days.
> ...


I do have something. Keep bird head leaned AGAINST towel, or wall this way head wont twist. That's very uncomfortable for Kiwi. I just dealt w my injured by squirrel and head was convulsive. They know when hurt, what to do you just help. Not sure w kiwi. Because of baby age. And yes, my bird wanted to lean on stable surface.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi thanks, yes stable surface is a job for the unicorn.
What can I do about the breathing ?


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

Pigeons tremble. This is common. She may be cold? The healthy 1's tremble. Keep her cozy. I recommend giving her soft kisses. And as I said before speak in a low tone quietly. You can wipe your mouth afterwards. Again, try google on injured pigeons and this may provide info. 
I recommend YOU TUBE for Marlene McCohen videos on bird info. She is phenomenal. It educated me for sure. So much great info. Exotic birds are still different from pigeons but BEHAVIORS are same. Email her too [email protected]
LOVE THE UNICORN. JUST PREVIOUS.
THANK YOU!!!


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## OfficerPigeon101 (Jun 21, 2021)

Selphiechen said:


> Hello, this is my 1st post here, I'm from France so my english is not so good, please excuse me for the language mistakes
> 
> So here is my story : I've already taken care of injured/ill adult/young city pigeons with the help of my very nice vet and all the forums, I really took all the information, advices that I could.
> I live in a small city that hates pigeons, they are disturbed everywhere they try to nest, they put sounds of birds crying and alerting so that no pigeon, crows, etc can stand on the city buildings, people poison them, the city council call a person with falcons to hunt them, etc...
> ...


Ok wow that’s a lot of horrible info from the town’s people. First maybe start trying to get people together and build lofts and trap the pigeons and put them in lofts attached to aviaries. This would start to remove them from the city! 2nd maybe find people interested in raising pigeons and has a loft who can start trapping them and giving them a good home to live in! Really the only way to remove the majority of a flock of pigeons is to trap and have them sent to lofts and raised by pigeon fanciers. As for the PMV if the bird doesn’t die within 72 hours give or take they can recover! It can take up to 10 months for full recovery but they can recover after they’ve been well cared for by hand and eventually their bodies will relearn to straighten out and stand and walk again and eat and drink on their own! It’s just a matter of if you want the commitment to recovery! Most birds with pmv will die in the first day or so. Any bird that’s ill should be kept away from all other birds! Quarantine it! 


Selphiechen said:


> Hello, this is my 1st post here, I'm from France so my english is not so good, please excuse me for the language mistakes
> 
> So here is my story : I've already taken care of injured/ill adult/young city pigeons with the help of my very nice vet and all the forums, I really took all the information, advices that I could.
> I live in a small city that hates pigeons, they are disturbed everywhere they try to nest, they put sounds of birds crying and alerting so that no pigeon, crows, etc can stand on the city buildings, people poison them, the city council call a person with falcons to hunt them, etc...
> ...





Selphiechen said:


> Hello, this is my 1st post here, I'm from France so my english is not so good, please excuse me for the language mistakes
> 
> So here is my story : I've already taken care of injured/ill adult/young city pigeons with the help of my very nice vet and all the forums, I really took all the information, advices that I could.
> I live in a small city that hates pigeons, they are disturbed everywhere they try to nest, they put sounds of birds crying and alerting so that no pigeon, crows, etc can stand on the city buildings, people poison them, the city council call a person with falcons to hunt them, etc...
> ...


If the bird lives past the 72 hour mark most likely it can recover from pmv! It can take 10 months to recover from all the neurological effects cause by the illness. After 2-3 weeks the bird is no longer shedding the virus in other words it no longer has the illness but only the neurological effects are left for them to relearn how to function normally again! It will need to be hand fed and watered and you have to learn how to do this correctly and I suggest getting some pigeon milk and a feeder syringe and learning how to fill it’s crop with it! It’s just the easiest way to feed and water them when they can’t feed or drink on their own! I currently have a bird recovering from the effects of PMV and I give it pigeon milk and it’s and adult! But it is recovering and gaining it’s normal abilities slowly. If it can fly or when it’s wings grow to where it can I would clip the wings to prevent it from trying to fly and injure itself! As for your town find people who raise pigeons and start a campaign where they trap the pigeons and raise them in lofts with aviaries! If this can be done successfully it will remove all the pigeons from the city buildings. Most likely the pigeons are getting sick because of how the people are treating them poisoning them and doing things that force them to get illnesses! Honestly it’s utter cruelty! But best way to get rid of pigeons is to trap them and find people who will raise them in lofts! Now as for your bird with pmv and can take up to 10 months for them to recover so it’s a big commitment with learning how to feed them and care for them correctly! Most will die in the first couple days but if they make past the 72 hour mark give or take it can recover! It must be quarantined from all other birds though. My bird is recovering well and after a couple weeks they essentially no longer have pmv and are not shedding the illness or (capable of spreading it). All that’s left is the neurological effects cause by the illness! So if you’re willing to commit to learning how to feed and care for it while it recovers and learn all that comes with it plus the length of time it could take you could definitely help the bird and then send it to a pigeon fancier to live its life due to it will probably have some minor permanent effects and will be none releasable. If you cannot provide the necessary care it’s probably best to put it down! If it can fly clip it’s wings so it doesn’t try to fly and injure itself! Sorry to hear how horrible your town is to those poor birds! Especially when something much more human and better solutions can be done to stop the pigeon problems! Thank you for being one who actually cares and is trying to help them! I’m sure most are getting sick because of the people doing things to them creating a spread of bad illnesses in the flock! Essentially making the problem worse! Hopefully they will wise up and people who raise pigeons will trap them and raise them in lofts with aviaries! Good luck with you sick little guy!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

When overheating they will breath rapidly with an open beak, but they won't shiver. There must be videos on youtube for you to compare. Maybe it's stress from being taken to the vet that is causing the neurological symptoms again. I hope she will be ok till Monday.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

Marina B said:


> When overheating they will breath rapidly with an open beak, but they won't shiver. There must be videos on youtube for you to compare. Maybe it's stress from being taken to the vet that is causing the neurological symptoms again. I hope she will be ok till Monday.


So regarding the overheating, this happens in cold weather and I believed this to be bird is very hungry. When I feed bird the open beak/panting stops.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> So regarding the overheating, this happens in cold weather and I believed this to be bird is very hungry. When I feed bird the open beak/panting stops.


Hot and cold weather.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi thanks for the advices and for trying to help.

It's red hot outside, 35° celcius but Kiwi is inside and it's 26°C here.
I still put a small warm water pad in a corner of his cage and he can choose to sleep on it or not.
Marina, I watched videos and it looks like one that has Canker.
He stretches his neck, yawn and then gets like in shock : shivers and opens beak to breathe. He also seems in pain and runs in circle with his head touching the floor.
This lasts for 15 mins and then he's normal again appart from breathing heavily with beak closed... until he stretches his neck again.

Sometimes he will sneeze, move his beak like chewing something ( I know he is not chewing but I don't know how to describe it.. )
He doesn't like me to touch his troat or massage his crop anymore.
So.. something might be disturbing him in his trachea ? Also his crop retains water much longer, his urates are yellow and there is a lot of water in his dropping, like when I got him in the 1st place.
I still don't know how to help until monday 🤔


Thanks for replying and caring this is very much appreciated ❤

Now I'm sure he recovered some sight because when I brought him the water he went to drink on his own, straight away 😀


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

Canker is also TRICHOMONIASIS. The beak will be moist versus a normal dry beak. I've dealt w a lot of Trich birds. Border cannot swallow anything.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

FITANDCHIC said:


> Canker is also TRICHOMONIASIS. The beak will be moist versus a normal dry beak. I've dealt w a lot of Trich birds. Border cannot swallow anything.


Bird. My phone is a joke and weird words come up..


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Are you still handfeeding? Try some natural antibiotics like cinnamon and garlic. Give him cinnamon 3 times a day, about half the size of a pea. Mix this with a bit of handrearing formula to form soft balls. Also one or two small pieces of garlic that you put into a formula ball.

Will you ask for the vet to do a cropsmear? It could be yeast as well. I hope he will be ok till Monday.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, yes I'm hand feeding him because he puts the beak inside the dish with defrosted peas, he moves his beak inside but never opens it hehe.
I still give him half formula balls and half peas but I give less quantity, wait until crop is empty again and give more.
All that because I'm affraid he cannot digest much.
He is more thirsty now and he scratches is ears.
Yes the vet does it, put special q-tip in the crop and watch under microscope.

I will give cinnamon and garlic now, thank you so much ! Cinnamon 3 times how about the garlic ? 

Kiwi and Sarah


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Give the garlic only at one feeding. Too much can cause an upset "tummy".


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Okay great thank you, you're an angel.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

How is Kiwi doing?
Thankyou so much for helping the poor baby!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hello there, sorry I've been very busy with Kiwi, 3 dogs and a cat, so here are some news !

As you can see Kiwi is doing better. The old natural remedies did wonders on him ! Apple cider vinegar warm water baths, cinnamon, garlic, massages chilling in the shade listening to pigeons.
We went to the vet yesterday and he was happy because he grew up a lot and put on a lot of weight. He is now 225g.
His new feathers are shinny and healthy, his skin is good too.
He tested his dropping and there is no worm or coccidia and he didn't see anything weird in his beak trachea, crop.
He can move his left wing a tiny bit wich is much more than he did. The right wing is still very stiff but he now can relax it when sleeping








He was very stressed at the vet but as home he is more and more relaxed, even preening my cat and dogs lol. the only time when he stresses is when I put him in his box because he loves being on the coutch or bed. He also stresses a lot when I massage his wings, I think it's rather painful even if I try to be very gentle... the vet said I should keep on doing it because he really could see the difference.
As he was stressed, his movements were really messy with lack of balance and coordination but at home he can now stand on one leg hehe 








He said that the shaking and mouth breathing could be like a nervous or brain seisure because respiratory diseases do not make any shivering ?

the vet also said that the uveitis is nearly finished but he didn't think he can recover the sight...

So I was a bit sad and wondering about what his life would be. No eyes, no wings...

The lab I send the droppings to are asking me 68euros for the full spectrum tests for salmonella and clamydia e-coli. It's a big amount for me as Kiwi already costs me loads 😆 Do you think it is necessary to do it now that his life doesn't seem in danger anymore ? Do you think that putting him under antibiotics will help him recover wings or condition ??


Today I put him a video of pigeons cooing on youtube on my phone as I often do to help him focus on something and I couldn't believe what I saw : usually he just spins his head to listen to the sounds but here Kiwi was pecking at the red youtube logo again and again !

I placed the logo on different places on my phone and he always aimed at it. Later I tried with a pen with a red cap and he did the same, as if he was going to get food from it, pecking on it anywhere arround him, he always found it.









So yay I finally think he may have a good life after all !
Thank you so much for your precious advices and caring, you all really helped me a lot ❤

Kiwi and Sarah.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Great to hear he is doing well and you are taking such good care of him. I won't give more antibiotics, only supportive care.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update! I'm very glad to hear that Kiwi is recovering his sight and that the vet did no find canker, coccidia or other diseases as you feared!

Agree with Marina. Giving antibiotics without knowing if they are really needed could be more harmful than useful (risk of antibiotic resistance, negative effects on gut flora, etc). If you still suspect salmonella and you want to rule it out for sure (or start the antibiotic treatment if it really is salmonella) you should do the test.

Lovely pics!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi ! Okay thank you. 
Yes of course I won't give antibiotics without the test and "antibiogramme" ( sorry I don't know how it's called in english ).
My concern was : can it wait until he's more grown up (and until my purse gets full 😳 )since his health seems stabilised ? I know antibiotics will harm his body but will his illness stop him from developping and get less stiff wings? 

He is now picking seeds in the dish on his own and spits them, so there a big improvement ! He can peck on something red anywhere in his area but not a seed/formula ball or defrosted pea. 
Maybe not enough colour contrast, or it's too small for him to aim.

I should have called him Toro, bull in spannish because he is crazy on red 🤩😅🐃








Is it important for him to go outside ? I don't have any garden and can't go on balcony so I would have to find a hidden spot and go by car.
I have a aviator harness but can't put him because of his wings so I am a bit lost on how to sit on the grass without anything to keep him from running
Thanks for your answers 💚


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

In my opinion the point is: do you and your vet think that salmonella could be a possibility? If the answer is yes you should do the test because it is the only way to rule it out for sure or to start immediately an antibiotic treatment. You are the only one who can reply to the question. Of course, that's only my own opinion.

I'm very glad to hear that his eyes are improving a lot and that he has started to peck at seeds!
I remember that my beloved dove Merlino was able to eat formula balls directly from my hands or from a coffee saucer. My broken wing pigeon Apple tried to do the same but basically without success...

I would not bring him outside because, as you fear, it could be dangerous. Agree, the harness could be bad for his wings. A pet carrier could be too stressful for him.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, thanks for you answer !
I really hope he will be able to pick the seeds like your Merlino does !
Today I could see the eye better because the blue cataract is totally gone and I'm not liking what I see.. it looks like an cornea ulceration ?








I guess it's another trip to the vet... I hope Kiwi will be alright, it looks painful. 😞
For the salmonella, the vet says that I should wait and see. I'm sure he thinks I'm crazy ! Doing all that for a pigeon ! All the family and pets have adopted Kiwi now hehe !
I don't know what it could be besides paratyphoid ? His wings are still stiff. He keeps them very close to his body.
So I'm gonna wait until next week to pay them for the full test, as I see improvements every day and I don't want to over medicate during his growing up.
As Marina adviced I'll stick to the garlic, cinnamon Acv and oregano for now. Especially if I have to treat the eyes again 🤔

Anyway, I feel less guilty that he doesn't see the sun now that he has this bad eye 😉 you're right that it would be stressful in a carrier. So I won't take him outside.

Thank you pigeon angels, you're really helping us with the nice advices.
Take care


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi ! So I went to the vet and he said that it is an ulcer. He gave me another antibiotic cream because the one I have has cortisone and it stops from closing the wound.
The new cream is Ophtocycline which has 10mg chlortetracycline chlorhydrate 
4 times a day and I should see improvement before 3 days.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update! I hope that the new antibiotic cream will help his eyes! 

Let us know the results of the full test when you will do that! 

Each baby learns to eat on his own at a different moment. Also his eyes issues could make things more complicated for him. You could fill a flower pot saucer with a great amount of seeds and dried legumes (small lentils, mung beans, split peas) of different sizes and shapes and put him inside it like I do with Geordi. Tap your finger between the seeds to attract his attention. You could also put a large amount of seeds against a vertical surface as I explained here:









Blind pigeon


Never thought I would be looking at this thread. We now have a 4 week old bird from one of my best breeders ( racing homers ) that is blind. Cute bird, funny, spins in a circle and is so cuddly. Anyway my wife loves it so I am stuck with it. It like to be fed. So its in the house, we have an...




www.pigeons.biz





You could add to his food even a mixture for canary containing dehydrated colored fruits. All my birds love it and the colored fruits could maybe help him to focus on food. 

Merlino was very very smart, she immediately started to eat on her own formula balls even if she was a baby. She was a special dove.
I don't know if I'm right but maybe for doves it's easier to eat formula balls on their own. As I said, Apple (my broken wing pigeon), even if adult, basically was not able to eat them 😅. Maybe it's because of the beak. 

Lol, don't worry, I don't think that your vet thinks that you are crazy! When my pigeon Londo had a cloacal prolapse my vet explained me how to massage her vent area....and I had to do the massage therapy twice a day for a loooong time (it worked great, fortunately!)... We all do "strange things" for our pigeons, vets who loves pigeons know that 😁! 

Keep us updated!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, thanks for the tips ! 
I will try all that but honnestly, it looks like he's hungry but doesn't like what I give him. I've tried every single seed, even hemp seed but if I don't force feed, he doesn't want anything.

It looks like the cream is itching him more. Do you know how to prevent him from scratching ? His eyelid becomes a bit red 🤯


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Btw I found another pigeon when I went to feed the city flock... adult, not so skinny but empty crop with a lot of feathers missing on it. Unable to fly, she's weak and doesn't stand properly on her feet, she also feels much colder thank Kiwi eventhough she was sitting on the sun. She smells like wooden fire smoke. Weird...
I gave her electrolytes and she drank and ate like there's no tomorow !
Her eyes are very very light i've never seen such eyes. i'll post a pic later.
I put her in donut shaped cloth so she doesn't fall in a cage in a quiet spare room.

I'm affraid to infect Kiwi with whatever she has. Even if I wash my hands.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Here she is, I say she but she might aswell be a male 🤩
















She managed to fly over the top of the small carboard so I guess it's a good Sign.
She finally made some poops. Small, green yellow urates and watery.
I treated her for lice/mites.
What's next ?
I can deworm tomorow but I don't know what else.
She drinks and eats a lot.
Her eyes are a bit more yellow/orange too. They were nearly white


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Check if the droppings improve with proper feeding over the next few days. Missing feathers on the crop? Maybe she was injured slightly and that prevented her from flying and able to find food and water.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks marina, after I read your reply I saw a little scab/scar. It looks old though, 
she was hanging arround, eating grass alone where I usually feed the feral flock. 
She could have been attacked by a cat !
When i approached she went on the road..
lol
I hope she will be alright, if there is no big surprise, I think she will be free again before she can even meet Kiwi 🥝


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, so I went to check on him before sleeping, he made a massive dark green dropping with white urates and less watery. He ate only seeds so I'm not sure about the spinach colour ?








I put him back into the donut shaped polar blanket and gave him warm acv water and he drank so much, I've never seen a pigeon drink like that, it's not normal...

He is not violent at all, more like a statue, standing still eyes wide open but if I touch him, his legs won't support him and he would fall on his nose if I don't hold him.

Kiwi's eye is not so itchy anymore and we trained a bit his balance. Him standing on my arm and me moving it a bit. When I stop he looks at me and doesn't want to go down 😀

Good night 🌜


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Your new pigeon might have an infection. A pigeon acting tame is a sick pigeon. Good sign that he is eating. Hopefully better looking droppings today.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi thanks,
So therr was little dark green stool everywhere and one huge dropping that I don't know what it is but it looks really bad ?








What shall I do ? Deworm ? Give antibiotics ? Both at the same time ? The only antibiotic I have is the same I used for Kiwi septotryl sulfamethoxypyridaz trimethoprime.
I could also go to the vet but my cat and Kiwi emptied my purse so if you have an idea I'll follow it blindly because I have no clue
What shall I do please ?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Edit :
This is not mature content.... it's the mouth with grey tip tongue lol


Okay so the big girl has a grey tongue at the tip.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









when stressed his eyes lids are flickering along with small tilting of the head and and his pupils are going big and small like 3 times per second.
He does as if he eats a lot but only get few seeds.
I force fed him formula ball as there is more vitamins etc.
He can't walk properly, his body losing balance head or tail doing up and down.









He has one big pupil and the other small


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor baby. The colouring of the tongue might be normal. First try the dewormer. Losing balance etc can be from weakness. I always use amoxycillin for treating bacterial infections, but you will probably not be able to get in your country from a pharmacy.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks Marina I was really waiting for your advice ! 😟
Doing deworming now.

About the eyes... could it be a car collision ? I don't know... It's really weird
No I don't have this antibiotic and can't get to pharmacy but I could ask the vet to sell me some.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Glad to hear that Kiwi is not so itchy anymore! Pigeons are like humans, each one has his favorite food. Try to mix mixtures of different brands (so you can offer him a larger variety of seeds), I'm sure that you will discover his favorite food. 

About the other pigeon, we can't tell for sure what is wrong with him but from what you wrote (especially about the eyes but even about balance issues, difficulty in picking up seeds, etc) I could think about a head trauma/concussion. Of course, that's just one of the possibilities.

Here are two links about concussion on birds and a general one about head trauma in pets:



Concussion – Pigeon And Dove Rescue UK











Birds Online - English - Birds Online


Birds Online – everything about budgies Welcome to Birds-online.de, my website about budgies. This project started in 1997 and has been enormously growing since. The aim is to offer profound […]



www.birds-online.de











CONCUSSIONS AND HEAD INJURY - Pines Meadow Veterinary Clinic


Injury to the head (head trauma) can be very dangerous–even result in death of your pet. A blow to the head can cause swelling of the brain tissues, and also internal bleeding from ruptured blood vessels as a result of the injury. Since the brain lies inside the bony skull, any bleeding or...




pinesvet.com





A head trauma can affect the eyes and can cause problems like eyes that tire easily or blurry vision and other eye-related issues. I read online that "However, when one pupil is more dilated than the other, it could be the sign of a structural brain injury that requires immediate emergency attention" . Even abnormal eyes movements could be a sign of concussion.

Keep him in a comfortable place. If he is really suffering from a concussion you have to keep him in the dim light (birds who suffer from a head trauma are very photo-sensitive), in a quiet and cool room (it's very important to not keeping birds suffering from a concussion on a hot waterbottle or a heatpad because warmth could make the situation worse). He needs rest. I cared about a dove who had a head trauma, I had to offer him water and to hand feed him. He looked like a doll. Probably you have a vitamin supplement, you could add it to his drinking water.

I would also check his vent area. Is everything OK? If it is dirty you could clean it with warm water (you can use a cotton pad, you know the ones for make-up) or with something like Dermidine spray (as you have dogs you could have it on hand!).


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Lol we wrote simultaneously. Yes, maybe a car hit him or he crashed against a wall or window.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I forgot... My vet gave me some tablets called "candilat", they could be used in case of head trauma. I found them helpful.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi Colombina thanks for the advice ! His pupils seem to be normal again.

After deworming, 😱🤮









And just after this horror :








Much better.
I'll ask the vet if he can give me something.
There is a dark place in the cage and also a cardboard box in the light and he prefers the light ?
Should I close the curtains then ?
He has a bit more energy as he managed to flee from me, running 10 steps out of reach. And he also resisted a bit when I force fed him


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

The dove I cared about recovered in some days. Recovery depends on the severity of head trauma. In any case, as I said, concussion is only one of the possibilities. Unfortunately we can't tell for sure what is wrong with him. Give a read to the links, they could maybe help you to understand if it could really be a head trauma.
Also head trauma does not exclude other issues... 

Dim light is ok, don't put him in darkness.

Glad to hear that dewormer is working. Fortunately I have never had worms issues..


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Vet was very busy today.
It's not just a head trauma, he had something before I had a better look as his crop and it's closed but looks bad.. I do have to get antibiotics asap









He can't eat or drink on his own because of balance but tonight it was really hard to feed him, he deffinitely has more energy !
I don't want to stress him with the feeding so I'll have to figure how to keep him from losing balance. Maybe like a hammock with holes for legs and vent. 

Meanwhile, on the couch...








Hehe, good night !


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Maybe a friend or family might have some leftover antibiotics. You can try a hammock, but this might stress her out even more. I've tried it once with a pigeon and it didn't work. A very small cage might be a better option, with towels around the sides so that she lies in the centre.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I know, sometimes injuries are very difficult to find because hidden by feathers...😔... 
As I wrote yesterday head trauma did not exclude other issues...

Check carefully the crop, you have to be sure that there is no any hole (I'm watching the pic from my phone so I can't see it well). We rescued a dove hit by a car in a parking, he had a hole in the crop (btw, the two italian vets who visited him did not find it even if we said them that we noticed an injury when we picked him up...). My French vet had to operate him, he had to stitch the crop (fortunately he is a good surgeon, the crop has more than one layer of skin so it's a bit complicated). He needed antibiotic and a pain med.

Have you noticed any bad smell?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi my vet is over booked so I went to see another one and asked for an antibiotic for injured crop and he gave me doxycycline. A tab for a 10kg dog. He told me to give 1/12th each day. What do you think ?

Thanks for the advice Marina, I didn't try the hammock and put him into a cat travel box, I put a nest inside with cloths and he seems to like it. He ate the seeds I put in a corner and didn't fall forward.
He drinks a little less ( it was really too much ) and eats nicely.
He shakes a bit his head when deciding what seed to eat and then he misses the one he wanted but still swallows and tries again.
Thanks for the smaller cage tip, he is deffinitely more quiet.

Colombina, It does smell a bit 😞 but nothing passes outside and the wound seems closed. His crop empties nicely between meals and it does a good amount of droppings so I guess there is no hole in the inside either ?
I hope I'm not mistaken because my vet won't operate him he already refused to flush another pigeon's crop stasis ( he died 1 day later 😢 ).
Droppings are still green but less fluorescent, more muted colour.

Let's hope for the best 🤞


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Ok, I'm glad that you got an antibiotic because bad smell is not a good sign. It means infection.

Did the vet gave you Ronaxan (doxycycline 20 mg) for cats and dogs? The same in the pic?
If yes, this is the dosage given by my vet for an adult pigeon: a whole tablet once a day.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Mmm, really I have no clue of what it is he only gave me one tablet with two 1ml sringes there is nothing written on the tablet plastic and I had to insist to know what it was exactly : doxycycline for a 10kg dog.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

You know vets hate to give antibiotics without seing the animal and they don't want to see pigeons. 🤯


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I know, some vets don't want to visit pigeons. 

The one I have is for small size dogs and cats, I checked the instructions, they talk about dogs and cats of 2 kg (see the pic) so your one is not the same of mine.



http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html


, 
"Doxycycline : Another tetracycline - listed separately because birds eliminate it more slowly, allowing for less frequent administration and lower dosages.

Dose : 10-50 mg per pigeon per day – 500 -1000 mg per 4 liters of water. Excellent antibiotic.

NOTE: When using tetracyclines, remove calcium sources such as grit, oyster shell, mineral, etc., since the calcium ties up the drug and makes it unavailable". 

If you want to be sure about the dosage suggested by the vet you could look online for doxycycline for 10 kg dogs, read how many mg there are inside each tablet and calculate.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you so much 🥰 very useful !

It must be 100mg because for a dog it's 10mg per kilo. 

It's weird that it's much more dosage for pigeons than for dogs.

Thanks I won't give calcium or grit.









Food time outside the box. The balance is not better but energy is !


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I know, it's weird but the vet always gave me that dosage (a whole 20 mg tablet once a day) for adult pigeons.
For adult doves, a whole tablet for 3 days then half a tablet. 

She's lovely!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, here are some news : big girl is still the same, not worse not better.

About Kiwi there is a bad news, the other eye has an ulcer too... I don't know what's happening...
His wings are still stiff and I read about infection can cause arthritis and lead to ankylosis... I think I will bring him to the vet school in september because he will need full check. Eyes, wings blood test on the wings etc.. because I can't afford all that and I don't want to see him suffer it must be painful 😱😭


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry to hear about the other eye.

Of course, a full check-up and tests would be the better option. In case of bacterial infection (salmonella or what else) he needs to start the proper antibiotic treatment asap.

Keep us updated.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, the scab on the big girl's crop has fallen !
Her balance is still so bad.. but she's getting used to us and now preens her feathers.

Kiwi is a bit better.
The vet school will make me pay like any other vet specialist if I say it's my pet and if I say it's a feral, it's free but I will never see him again and I'm affraid they will euthanize him...


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Glad to hear the big girl is doing better. Both are in good hands!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update.

Glad to hear that the scab has fallen. 

I understand that money is a problem (especially in covid times 😔) and I don't want to influence your decision but at your place I would not say that Kiwi is a feral pigeon....


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

No I won't because I don't think they would take care of him for months to get him better, sadly I don't trust them for not putting him down...
So, I watched the prices and this month I can only afford either ophtalmology or the exams for the wings 🤔 

I think the eyes are more important and has to be checked as soon as possible.

What would you do ? 😞 
I thought the vet school was less expensive than specialist as they are teaching/learning.

Thanks for advices 😀


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Kiwi sneezes and yawns and scratches his head ears and nose. I can see nothing in his mouth, it's light pink. I hope it's not another infection.. I read in the forum that it can be canker or yeast, I'm worried again.
Also his neck is very "S" shaped.. and he shakes his head when going to sleep


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Can you post a photo of the droppings?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes sure this is what was in his box this morning 








Thank you Marina


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Help 😢 he was on empty crop, didn't want to drink and when he saw the food he looked happy to see it and then suddenly he did a vomitting motion, shaking his head low between his legs... forlike 3 big seconds shall I feed him or give him something else ? He is hungry


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

So I gave him 5 formula balls he didi'nt want any more.
Yesterday I gave him 2 small pieces of pigeon grit and he just pooped them 😆 isn't it supposed to stay a bit in the gizard ?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

He ate alright all day, no throwing up, I don't know what happened this morning. I sware Kiwi is going to give me an heart attack 🤯









Big girl Named bowie because of the big and small pupils. She loves to perch like that 😍


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

The droppings look perfect.

Sometimes birds have those "regurgitation motions". And nothing is wrong. So don't worry.

Bowie is lovely.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you Colombina, sorry I probably worry too much 😳

He stays like that most of the day

















But sometimes he has his crazy moments, jumping everywhere and the dogs wondering what's happening lol


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

He is so sweet... 

I understand you, I am very apprehensive too...


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You do give acv in the drinking water twice a week and probiotics?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, Marina, yes I give him both. I still feed him formula on morning and evening and peas during the day. I still have to forcefeed him 🤔 he plays with the seeds, put them in his mouth and spits them


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Ok so I've had friends to help me with money and Kiwi has an appointment for the vet school on friday for the full check.

Bowie is still the same he only sleeps when on my mother's chest haha.

This morning, a neighbour put a wounded pigeon in a cardboard box on my doorstep.... 
Maybe a cat got him. His wing is injured. 
I washed it with betadine ( iodine solution ) I put sumfamide powder on it and gave him a drop of metacam and had to forced him to take electrolytes his crop was full but hard. I massaged his crop and it's better today.
I was afraid he had an internal wound because his stool are black but i smeared it, put water on it as I saw in this forum and in fact it's very dark green instead of red. 

It will have to wait tomorrow for amoxicycline because I don't have any and it's sunday...










What else shall I do for him ? 

I'm running out of space with those 3 that I cannot put together. I understand that my neighbour wants me to save it but it already was problematic with two That can't eat drink or bathe on their own. 
Maybe I can let this one at the vet school on friday. I don't think they would euthanize him only for a wounded wing would they ?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

That's great, you have wonderful friends 👍.

Recovery from a head trauma could take a long time, it depends on the severity of the trauma. I found very helpful the candilat tablets (papaverine and vincamine), maybe you could ask to the veterinary school for an opinion and try them.

Honestly I would not leave the new bird to the school. I understand that it's a complicated situation because we have too to daily hand feed two disabled pigeons (my blind pigeon Geordi and our pmv pigeon Goliabianca) but it would be very sad to lose a life because of euthanasia... Of course, that's my own opinion. 

Betadine, metacam, etc are ok.

From the pic his eye looks lively, that's a good sign.

You could check the mucosa inside his mouth. If they look pale it's a sign of anemia (which could be caused even by internal injuries).
If you have at home a bottle of hydrogen peroxide (eau oxygénée) you could try to put a small amount of it on the dark droppings. When hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with catalase it "bubbles", you see a white fizzling foam. Blood contains catalase. When I need to understand if there is some blood I do this "test". Of course, It's not a scientific method but it could help you to get an idea.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, 
Yes his eyes are wonderful and very open. When I first saw him, his eyes really stunned me, colourful like fire so his name is "Fuego" 🔥
thanks a lot for the peroxyde tip ! 
For the Candilat, my vet is not too keen on giving it... I'll ask them at the school. I don't know if they will deliver this without seing him but I'll try 😉

How often shall I give metacam and clean his wound ? 
If you say they will euthanize him I won't bring him there even if it's hard because I'm supposed to be back at work and it's impacting on my work 🤔


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Also, he didn't eat anything because he is in chock. Shall I force feed him tonight or shall I wait and see how he does tomorrow ?
Thank you so much I'd be totally lost without the forum !

By the way, Kiwi is asking for loaaads of food since yesterday lol


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

You can give a drop of metacam and clean his wounds twice a day.

I know, each vet has his own ideas on meds, treatments, etc. I have two vets, a woman and a man. Usually they have opposite ideas 🙄.
When the vet (the man) gave me the candilat I made some researches online and I read that even other vets give it to birds (poule).









Poule - Probleme de santé -


Bonjour tout le monde, Depuis dimanche, j'ai une poule (né en Décembre) qui a le cou "tordu". Nous avons étaient hier au vétérinaire NACS, il nous à filé plusi




colombestourterelles.forumactif.org





Personally I found it helpful and I did not notice any side effects or other problems. But as I said I know that each vet has his own opinion 😉.

Honestly I don't trust so much people so personally I would not leave him to the school... But that's my own opinion lol.

I'm very glad to hear that Kiwi has a great appetite 😁.
About Fuego: if possible try give him at least a small amount of food.
If he is too much in choc and if you fear to make the situation worse you could wait until tomorrow morning (unless he is very thin) but add to his drinking water a vitamin supplement.

Have you checked the color of his mouth (mucosa)? Does it look pink as usual?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks for the info ! Yes I gave vitamins on his water tonight.
His mouth looks light pink yes so I will do what you said on the other post about iron (lentils) and B vitamins.
I'd rather wait for tomorrow before feeding because he is not so thin and I'm afraid to hurt his wing more if I put my hand or a blanket tight around his body ?
Can you believe that he is preening his wounded wing ? 😠 🤬 I hope he won't make it bleed again !!

I'll check the forum you linked about candilat.
Thanks again 🥰

Bowie is better tonight. He trained his wings and took off 10 cm upward and then back on the nest without falling upside down !
And after that, he lied down in his "nest". That's the first time I see him lying down 🥲
So I'm happy !

And Meanwhile Kiwi cries for food ( again )


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Ok, wait until tomorrow. Hopefully he will start to eat on his own 🤞.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

When I said that you can give a drop of metacam twice a day I forgot to add that it's ok to give it on morning and evening. As it's not an antibiotic you don't need to be super precise about the time.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Ok yes I just wanted to make sure that I could give him in the evening aswell if he looked in pain. I just don't want to overdose it.
Thank you 🧡


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, I got clavaseptin from the vet it's tablets containing 50mg amoxicillin + 12,5 clavulanic acid
I looked in the forum for dosage and found that I can give 1/4 tablet every 12hours is that right ? Because on another post I saw 50mg amoxicillin per day ?
The vet was on holiday and so I had to struggle with a vet I didn't know anything about the dosage.. and for how many days ?

Fuego is eating !
Thanks


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I have never used amoxicillin + clavulanic acid in pigeons so in all honesty I can't help you with the dosage. I'm sorry. 



http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html



In the website they say:

"Amoxicillin : An excellent broad spectrum antibiotic. Often good against Salmonella, E. coli, Strep. & Staph. species of bacteria.

Dose : 50 mg per pigeon per day in divided doses. 3 grams (3000 mg) per gallon (4 liters). Treat for 5-10 days" .

I attach also a medical formulary which was shared by one of our members. 

Glad to hear that Fuego is eating on his own 👍😁!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi 😀 
Thanks ! Ok I gave 1/2 tablet And I'll give the same tonight.
I washed the wound too. With the sulfamide powder it's all dry. Not warm or stinky. Not swollen. But it began to bleed again when I washed so...
I don't think I will clean it everyday what do you think ?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

For an adult pigeon, I always give 40 mg of amoxy twice a day. How much does he weigh? Rinse the wound with saline water and put some antibiotic cream on. I think the oral antibiotics is more important than cleaning the wound every day.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi Marina !
I don't know how much he weights I would say 300g/350g as he is a little smaller than Bowie who is 400g. And he is not skinny.
Do you think 5 days treatment would be enough ?
I don't have antibiotic cream appart from the one for eyes.
The only thing I have is sulfamide powder wich is for skin infection to prevent bacterial growth on a cut


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Do a 7 day course. Give him about 35 to 40 mg twice a day. You can put some Betadine (for humans from a pharmacy) on the wound.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

How did you clean it? The vet explained me that you have to put a small amount of Betadine 10% on a cotton pad then "tap" it in a very very gentle way (doucement 😉). 
According to my vet instructions I always clean/disinfect the wounds with Betadine 10%. and apply an antibiotic cream twice a day. Salire solution is for rinsing the wound so you don't need to daily use it but only the first time.

All over the years I used many different creams given by my vet (sometimes he gave me even ophtalmic creams for wounds). 
On my own initiative I used this healing cream, you don't need a prescription for buying it. 









Ialuset Care Plus Crème @ Pharma GDD 🛒


La crème Ialuset Care Plus, disponible sur pharma GDD, est un soin destiné aux plaies infectées et aux brûlures. Elles contient de l'acide hyaluronique et de la sulfadiazine argentique, un antibactérien.




www.pharma-gdd.com


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Ok thanks a lot girls 😀
I clean with 1/5 betadine 4/5 boiled water. I wait until it's warm of course. Thanks for this cream I'll go to the pharmacy tomorow and get it.

I will lower the betadine in the mix as you said.

Thanks a lot


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

By the way : I did the trick with peroxyde on droppings and it didn't make bubbles so there is no blood But they are still black or very very dark green or brown depending on what he eats. I gave him something to help the liver and the urates are whiter and the dropping shape is good. Not watery or mucous but very very dark still... he eats loads and so he does a good amount of them.
Do you think it could be worms ? is it safe to deworm him now or should I wait until the end of antibiotics ? 
Again too many questions sorry and good night 🌛


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I would wait till the antibiotic course is finished before deworming him.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you Marina I will wait then


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Bowie is showing more and more signs of pmv... 😢
He makes small flights/jumps but always backwards. He also shakes his head in the air when trying to swallow seeds. He misses his giant seed dish all the time now, and by far..
I have no clue of what I can do but what I know is that if he has PMV he won't be releasable but I won't be able to keep him for months/years if he is so disabled he can do nothing on his own and if I'm not here for him, he would spend all his day lying on his back 😞 
We will see if the vet school want to give me the meds you said for head trauma and hope for it to work. 
I'm so afraid to infect the other two with PMV now !

I got the antibacterial cream you said and it worked like a charm.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Just continue to give Bowie supportive care for now. He will improve. He will either make a full recovery and be releasable again. Two of mine had this. The male made a full recovery, but the female is still neurological after 4 months. If it turns out he will be unreleasable, I'm sure you will find him a good home. First tend to the other two, then to him. Always wash your hands after handling him.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry for the late reply but this morning we had the plumber here... So I was very busy..

Glad to hear that you found the cream helpful 😁.

Have you read the links about concussion that I posted earlier (post n. 82)? Recovery could take a long time...
If you decide to try the tablets (and if the clinic give them to you) I will explain you the dosage.
I used them when Geordi (my blind pigeon) had a stupid but dangerous accident. He fell from my dad's hands on the floor and got a head trauma (you can't imagine how I got angry with my dad.....). He could not stand and so on. I was very scared. Honestly I found them very very helpful, Geordi made a full recovery thanks to them.
I know that unfortunately in your case we can't tell for sure if it is a head trauma (even if eyes issues could suggest that)...

In case it's PMV, I suggest you to look in all cases for a home for him. I'm going to explain. Three of our PMV pigeons recovered well (unfortunately Goliabianca never started to eat on his own and can't fly) but last May Marshall (who had PMV in 2014) had the symptoms back in a very severe way (they were worse than in 2014). For a whole week he had horrible seizures, they looked like epileptic fits. In 2014 he did not have seizures.
My three PMV pigeons all have a happy and normal pigeon life (Marshall is the husband of my broken wing pigeon Apple) but Marshall easily gets in panic and sometimes lands in a bad way; Angus "Top Gun" sometimes "looks at stars" and starts to walk back and forth..
Life in the wild is surely very stressful and stress could increase the risk of having the symptoms back..

PMV virus runs its course in about 6/8 weeks. In the meanwhile wash well your hands (because of covid you probably have at home an antibacterial soap 😉). You can even wear different clothes.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you so much Marina and Colombina for your nice messages. 

I do handle him after the other two and wash my hands and use alcohol solution after. And I cover my lap and torso with puppy training pads when I handle him for feeding.

Yes I hope it's a head trauma and that the vet will want to try this treatment. And I'll be happy to get your advices then. The eyes problem tended to prove it was head trauma but he's not doing it anymore so he could have fallen because of PMV too. 
This morning somebody feeding pigeons in town told me that everyday there are more and more dead pigeons near the canal where they drink and she saw some who couldn't fly too... I went there but saw no alive pigeon needing help. 
I really hope it's not a PMV epidemy.

Marina, I will not give up on him so easily and try to find him a family if he shows no improvement at all during the next months. 

Today Bowie seems better. I tried to give him metacam yesterday evening and his head shook less. He even tried to get some seeds on his own.

Fuego's wing is very low. He does move it and preen it so I think it's not broken but sometimes it's so low it touches the ground. He/she is very sweet and prefers to eat seeds in my hand instead of on the floor or in a dish. He also makes soothing sounds when I approach it's weird like if he's not so feral.

Kiwi's eyes and wings are not better but he is very lively and lovely and he did his 1st coo 😉 the vet appointment is tomorrow afternoon. I'll tell you how it went. I really cross my fingers.

Oh. I noticed that he rubs/scratches the floor/his mat with his feet, lying down.
What does it mean ? Fuego does it too when making this soothing sound.


Thanks again ❤


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Oh and yes I've read the posts about concussion thanks. I didn't know that flying backwards and putting his head up for swallowing could be a symptom.

About Geordi I can't imagine how upset you were ! I bet your dad felt awfully sorry !

I gave him a tiny drop of metacam tonight aswell and he managed to climb on the little cardbord box and perch on the pickpot.
Look how proud he looks


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Let us know what the vet will say this afternoon.

They rub the floor with their feet and belly when they "work" at the nest. Lol, they are both training themselves for the future nest 😁. It's instinct, Geordi can't have a wife but he does that too sometimes. Btw, thanks so much for your kind words about Geordi. Even my vet got very worried (and disappointed...) when he visited him... Fortunately he made a full recovery!

Beautiful pic 😍, yes, he looks really proud (btw, I have too pick pots!)!!!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I hope that there is no an outbreak of a disease in your town...

I've got a doubt... A quick question: is it possible that someone is poisoning pigeons? I have experience only with anticoagulant rat poison but I read that some non-anticoagulant rodenticides could cause neurological symptoms...
Give a look at the link, it's very interesting (some symptoms of your birds could match...).





__





Rodenticide Toxicity | Cornell Wildlife Health Lab







cwhl.vet.cornell.edu





I remember that I also read that salt poisoning could have symptoms similar to PMV:

"Due to the similarity of symptoms of paramyxovirosis to the pigeon herpes virus infection (PHV), sodium chloride poisoning, overdose of ronidazole or vitamin B1 deficiency, it is necessary to perform laboratory tests to make a correct diagnosis".









Occurrence, characteristics and control of pigeon paramyxovirus type 1 in pigeons - PubMed


Newcastle disease (ND) is a highly contagious and devastating viral disease of poultry and other birds that has a worldwide distribution. ND in pigeons is called paramyxovirosis and is caused by antigenic "pigeon variant" of the virus (pigeon paramyxovirus type 1, PPMV-1). During PPMV-1...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov









__





Electrolytes and Racing Pigeons – Canadian Racing Pigeon Union







www.crpu.ca


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi ! Looong and stressful day !








We're back from the vet. Kiwi has had a checkup on his eyes and they were creepy fluorescent green with the product hehe.

So he has sub corneal œdema on both eyes. They gave no explanation on why he got that but I'm happy we got an emergency appointment to the ophtalmologist.
they prescribed human eye products to give for 15 days : 

- ODM 5 ophtalmic solution 10ml for the reduction of corneal oedema ( sodium chloride 5% sodium hyaluronate 0.15% presercative free )
1 drop twice a day

- TOBREX 0.3% COLLYRE ( tobramycine 0.3g for 100ml benzalkonium chloride, boric acid, sodium surfate, sodium chloridd, tyloxapol and purified water)
2 drops 3 times a day. 10 minutes after the ODM 5

They said it's pointless to make further invistigation for the wings as they are ankylosed and there is no way they're going to get any better. 

They say that they don't look painful when we don't try to force stretch them so it's a good news.

The student supervisor said there is a little bit of neurological symptoms because when they asked me to leave the room, he started the spinning in circles so she said it's probably PMV.. which I doubt... so no investigation on bacterials. 
She did a crop swab test for trichonomosis/canker just in case.

We're back home and he's a bit shivering maybe tired from exhauting trip and them touching his wings. I hope he't not painfull now.

I asked for Bowie but they said that they will not speak about an animal they don't see 😞 so I will ask to my vet again.


Colombina, sadly it's very possible that people are putting poison for rats and pigeons here. I've seen somebody spray car cooling liquid over the food for cats living in the streets... so this wouldn't surprise me.
Thanks for the links !


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update!

I really hope that the ophtalmic human products will fix his eyes issue!

Lol, nice alien eyes in the pic 👽😁!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hahaha yes I'm disapointed I didn't get a better picture ! Sooo zombie like, perfect for halloween !🧟
I hope it will work too 🤞


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Halloween is coming so it's perfect 🎃 😝🕸!!!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, here is a little update. 1 week after the vet ophtalmologist : no improvement on the eyes and it's very stressful for him to put eye drops 5 times a day including 2 times with a painful product 😞
The next appointment is on wednesday I phoned them and they said to continue no mater what.
There is still something wrong with him and it's getting worse.

His voice is bad, he scratches head ears beak nose eyes all the time, has less feathers on the front of the neck. Vomits when I feed half of the normal dose so I have to give 1/3 of food and he does crop motions after... he is hungry but doesn't want to eat. Vet school had tested for canker and it's not that so maybe yeast/aspergillosis with the antibiotics he had... 

Bowie's balance is getting better but still flies backward. Vet doesn't want to give the medecine you said Colombina. So I give B complex vitamins and garlic. I moved him to a bigger cage but had to cover 3/4 of it because he was trying to see the feral pigeons outside and started spinning round.

Fuego's wing is better. He escaped his cage to go bully the other ones ( hopefully their cages were all closed ) he flew a bit to get to the other cage but then had his wing hanging very low... so he is far from being ready to be free again.
He's got big temper must be a male because he coos a lot and wants to attack everything he sees including me...

And now I have a 4th one to take care of and the ferals I see outside are skinny and slow to fly off. I'm just praying not to find another one lol 
Will this ever finish ? 🤯


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

It will never finish. Once you start rescueing them, you will always notice pigeons in need. Will you be able to get something for yeast? Medistatin is a product for pigeons and basically powdered Nystatin. You mix the powder with water and also give on an empty crop just like Nystatin.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks Marina, I'm searching on internet and it seems that I can't get it shipped to france..


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Let us know what the vet will say tomorrow about Kiwi.

Glad to hear that Fuego and Bowie are improving and that you are going to keep them until they are releasable.

A big hug.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes I will tell you, I really don't know what they are going to say because his eyes are not better and his general state is not really good. I hope they can find a solution for our sweet Kiwi. 🤞

Fuego's wing is not alright still but improving. He wants to train to fly but when he does, his wing is dropping afterwards so I'm limiting the flights. He loves to stay on the fireplace and watch his pigeon friends outside the window.

Bowie can now walk to the mug and drink on his own and even manages to eat a bit on his own. I can't let him see the pigeons outside because he then starts spinning round falling down and flying backwards.
He loves to stand on the coutch in my bedroom, fly down and going up again.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, we're back from the vet school.
He is exhaused and so am I lol !

So, Kiwi's eyes have not improved but it's stabilised. I need to put a cream in his eyes twice a day for the rest of his life to help them stay moist and to prevent them from getting worse. The cream is for human : "vitamine A Dulcis 25000 UI/100gr"

Kiwi lost weight so the priority is to stop the vomitting so he can have more food per meal.

For his regurgitations vomitting and not wanting to eat, they say it may be a esophagitis so they prescribed a stomac plaster to give 0,2ml 3 times a day 30 minutes before meal during 5 days "Phosphalugel" was not availailable so they gave "Kéal gé sucralfate".

They also gave "32ml meloxidyl 1,5 mg/ml" wich is like metacam. I have to give 0,15ml twice a day.

When he will stop vomitting and will have put some weight on, I have an antibiotic to give him for 3 weeks. It,s "bactrim" for baby and child it's a sirup containing sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprime 200mg/40mg.
I will have to give 0,14ml twice a day during 3 weeks. To get rid of the samonella or whatever it is.

They checked his droppings and saw no parasites or yeast.

That's about it.. we're gonna be busy Kiwi and I, poor little bird he's sleeping since we came back 😴


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor baby. I hope he will soon become better.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, thanks Marina. I hope he will be better too !










After eating tonight. He's more active 🙂 ( orange eye lids are because of the products they used to see his eyes )


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

How is Kiwi doing? Does he still have regurgitation or vomit issues? 

I read that you have to apply a cream into his eyes for the rest of his life. Does he have any sight? 

I hope he will feel better soon!
Keep us updated!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, Kiwi's stomac issues seem better ! However, he hasn't put any weight on.

He has very little sight. He only sees in front of him and very close, at the right angle. Nothing on the sides.
Each eye has a grey white patch on the cornea...
The vet said it won't get better, it can only get worse because he has dry eyes because of the infection he had.
I have a problem with bowie and will make a new thread.

There has been a seed bombing in my bedroom lol
They met and it was alright, they ignored each other pretty well. Only Kiwi wanted to go to them but the others soon realised that he can't jump/fly.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor baby. Just try your best with him.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi Marina, yes I try my best ! He still doesn't eat on his own btw but nevermind, he manages to peck seeds and put them in his mouth and spit again and again 😆. 
When I come back from outside he calls me like WHO WHOOO WHOOOOOOOOO lol


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear about his eyes degenerative issues... In any case, I can assure you that he can have a happy life. Geordi can confirm that! Even a friend of mine has a nearly blind pigeon and she told me that he has too a good life.

Glad to hear that at least his stomach issues seem better.

He is lovely! And very sweet 😍!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hehe thanks for him, he loves compliments 😜 
Yes I hope he can have a good life, even with the use of no wing... 🤔 time will tell !

Btw can you please look and my other thread for Bowie please because I'm very worried...

Thanks for answering, as always 😍


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

No need to thank me ☺ ❤.

I replied to your other thread.

Geordi doesn't have any wing issue but he can't fly as other pigeons because of his blindness... He flies only backwards (in fact he often has bad tail feathers 😕...)... But he is a happy bird! I'm sure that even Kiwi will have a good life.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

How is sweet Kiwi doing? Has he gained some weight?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, I'm sorry I didn't give any news lately.
Kiwi is alright. Not better, not worse. The weight is still more or less the same, I can't seem to get him fatter.

He never wants to eat no matter what I give him I have to fight. He has 3 meals per day. 3 times cream in his eyes and twice the antibiotics. 

Can he eat seeds now ? I give him soaked ones only atm. What are the most digestible ones ? He doesn't want any grit and I'm not confident on forcefeeding him grit.
Appart from that he is alright. Always cold because his feathers are rubbish so he always sits on his heat bottle otherwise he starts shivering.

He does weird things with his head when the light starts to go down and I have to calm him every night because he can't see at night. Maybe he thinks he's going blind again ? He starts running in circles when it's dark.

Fuego is gone by the way, his wing got perfect, he trained a lot before leaving. I see him everyday when he comes for food.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update.

I'm very glad to hear that Fuego recovered well and that you see him everyday! Good job 👍!

We are used to hand feed seeds to Geordi (twice a day). I give him a mixture of seeds and dried legumes of medium sizes. I don't give him crumbled picking block (he vomits similar stuff). If you want I could send you a pic of his mixture and explain our handfeeding method.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes sure I'd be pleased ! So he doesn't eat any grit and can digest properly ?
Also is the lack of sunlight really bad ? Because the sun never goes inside my house wich is very dark and i have no garden or proper balcony ( and it's in the shade also )


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

This is Geordi's mixture (see the pics): Carrefour dove mix (it's a good quality product even if it's supermarket brand) + small lentils + mung beans + split peas. We hand feed him twice a day. 

Yes, he can digest properly even if I can't give him crumbled picking blocks (he vomits all those stuff, even oyster shells).

How to hand feed seeds (the method is good for all pigeons): we use a "small shovel" like the one in the pics. You can make it in an easy way: cut a rectangle - about 4 or 5 cm x 1,5 cm - from a resistant cover of a magazine and bend it like in the photos.
The first person keeps the bird with one hand (left hand), the second person gently opens the beak and the first person gives the seeds with the other hand (right hand. If you are left-handed it's the contrary, of course). I attach a few pics (lol, he is not Geordi but it does not matter...) so you can get a better idea.
Geordi eats 22 shovels twice a day, Goliabianca (our PMV pigeon who did not recover in a proper way from his neurological symptoms) 28 shovels... You need to understand what is the good number of shovels for Kiwi. The amount of seeds on the shovel depends on the birds (for example Geordi has a small beak/throat. He is a small pigeon lol). 

About sunlight, just regularly give to all your birds a complete vitamin supplement containing even vit D3 (like the Omni-vit Oropharma) and a source of calcium.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Wow thanks !
Now I realize I really don't feed them enough 😱 but if I give more to Kiwi he vomits again... and I already give 3 meals per day do you think I can add a 4th meal even if he is still digesting ?
You mean 22 shovels per day or 22 per meal ? Wow

I've tried this carrefour dove mix and it's really good you're right 😀 I give some of it too but also give bigger seeds like corn and peas because it's easier to give one by one ( I didn't know the "shovel" trick then hehe )
So you never give whole small corn ? Are they too hard to digest ?
I've never seen the mung beans you're talking about ? The lentils I give are black/green if that's alright ?
Thanks for all the details 🥰

Oh and thanks about the sunlight, it really bothered me not to know this !
I have vitamins with d3 and calcium in it, I hope there is enough inside though...


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Geordi eats 22 shovels twice a day, I mean 22 shovels per meal (sometimes he is hungrier and we give him a few additional shovels). Only rarely we give him whole corn because he can eat only the ones which are very very very small (lol, as I said he is a small pigeon with a small beak and throat 😅)... not so easy to find them!

Each pigeon is different so the important thing is to understand what is the best food and the right amount for each one.
In my previous post I told you what is the perfect mix for Geordi 👍 .
Goliabianca (PMV pigeon who never started to eat on his own and can't fly) eats a larger mix of seeds than Geordi: into his mixture I put also others pigeon/dove brands (like, for example, the Versele Laga Doves Prestige), a bit of canary seeds, etc. He can eat even crumbled picking blocks. We give him 28 shovels for dinner. For lunch he eats small peas and small corn.

Regarding Kiwi, if he vomits don't give him more food. About a 4th meal... As I don't know him I can't answer to your question...with time you will surely understand what is the right amount of food for him! Experience is the best teacher!

I attach a pic of a package of mung beans (haricots Mungo). All organic supermarkets sell them. They are a bit expensive. Here the "cheapest" ones are sold by Leclerc Bio&Italien and by Grand Frais. All my birds love them 😍 . Mung beans increase in volume so, if you decide to hand feed them to Kiwi, don't give too much of them.
About the type of lentils, it's just a matter of taste! My pigeons do not like the "corail", the pigeon of a friend of mine love them!


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