# hen gone lite...one egg...help.



## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

About 3 weeks ago I noticed a lethargic/lite hen on the floor of the loft. I isolated her to see if she was eating and drinking, did some hand feeding. We suspected Parathyphoid (sp) and started her on a course of baytril. She seems to be eating/drinking well, alert and feisty...but weight gain is slow. She laid ONE egg about 3 days ago, but is not sitting on it. Inside of her mouth looks pink, but she has started to choke a time or two when we tried to supplement with hand/syringe feeding so we stopped that. She appears to breathe through her mouth more than is normal..though not obviously and a little more when she is stressed. No rattle in her breathing or nasal discharge. Poops are a bit watery and greenish. My vet bills have been enormous this month and the trip stresses them so much I prefer not to have to take her but this has been going on for a few weeks now. Any other suggestions? And do they sometimes lay just ONE egg.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Does she usually lay two eggs?

Does she have any swelling around the vent area?

Make sure to hand feed her if she hasn't eaten, and keep her warm.

Make sure she has access to calcium grit and also probiotics.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

yes, they do sometimes lay one egg, but USUALLY it's either when they are very young and laying for the first time OR getting older and are about to stop laying. However, if she's gone light, I would figure there's something going on there. We're dealing with another hen in another thread that has the same symptoms. Of course without a vet diagnosis, we can't tell for sure what's wrong. We're going with coccidiosis on the other hen, but that's mainly because the guy doesn't have any other medications. His also hasn't laid an egg. Could yours be egg bound? Can she or does she get up and walk around?


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm sorry she's still not feeling well. I know others have tried a steamy bathroom to help stimulate laying, and it works well. I believe you can give a few drops of virgin olive oil but I'm not positive; hopefully someone will clarify. I hope you figure out what's wrong and are able to make her feel better.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What's the respiration rate in breaths per minute (watch her tail bobbing)?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

While on baytril, she must have been off calcium so she could need calcium.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

To answer the questions posed...

Respiration is 45-48 per minute. 

She walks and moves around the cage normally. No problem standing or walking. 

She was a rescue about 1 year ago so I do not know her age or laying pattern...but she came with 3 others, two of whom have died in the last 4 months of seemingly unrelated/unclear/undiagnosed causes. One passed very quickly after being found on the floor of the cage with no visible sympoms. Another died about 2 weeks ago, which I had removed at the same time as this one. He had a limp, swelling at the ankle, then seemed better, then one morning did one neck twist and laid over dead. (that is why we thought paratyphoid sp. via another thread) 

I have kept this bird out of the loft, she is almost done with a course of baytril...and she still seems really lite. Maybe it just takes longer than a few days to replace a big weight loss? She has calcium grit.

I put the rest of the loft on ACV as I understood this to create a hostile environment for the para/cocci etc. bacteria. All the rest of the birds look fine, including a squab born just when I removed the two who looked ill.

This hen is on about day 10 of a 14 day course of baytril...which I thought sounded long but is what the vet prescribed last time.

Will baytril interfere with weight gain or appetite?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Calcium interferes with the effectiveness of baytril. I'm unclear as to whether she has been on pigeon grit or oyster shell. They do need both.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Had been using a red grit but we switched to a grey grit that has oyster shell in it. I also just read another thread where someone said Baytril can suppress their appetite...should I give her the full 14 day course, then pack in the calories after that without expecting much weight gain while she remains on the med?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Every now and then I get a hen that's sick with something that doesn't respond to Baytril, or not completely anyhow. Depending on what the signs are, I might go with Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Divet; Bactrim, Cotrim, Sulfatrim, SMZ-TMP; et cetera ad infinitum) or possibly a Tetracycline. Yours, I might tend to follow your Baytril course with a Tetracycline and run a chart on the respiration rate. I tend to think that way because of Henny's symptoms and decline. Henny was one of Pigeonpal2002's birds that we all just missed it completely on.

The normal resting respiration rate for a pigeon would be in the low 30s, by the way. This bird has a real problem.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

These are the meds I have on hand...in addition to the baytril... sulfadimethozine; erythromycin for birds; and 4 in 1 (furaltadone/ronidazole).

If one of these are not correct, what would I look for on line at Jedd's?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Doxycycline is usually the best of the Tetracyclines for our use. This would probably be the best packaging from Jedds:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=33&SubCategoryID=1074&ProductID=984

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kippermom said:


> Had been using a red grit but we switched to a grey grit that has oyster shell in it. I also just read another thread where someone said Baytril can suppress their appetite...should I give her the full 14 day course, then pack in the calories after that without expecting much weight gain while she remains on the med?


I said that too and it can. Some how I think the cause of these sick birds is related especially since they all came from the same place.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This packaging from Global is the most drug for the money, methinks:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/productimages/fullimg/IMG1124186992.jpg

In the bottle from Jedds, you're getting 3,000 total milligrams of medicine. In the one from Global, you're getting 20,000. So, seven times as much at only ~twice the cost.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*help diagnose these symptoms please*

Thank you..I will place an order right away for the Doxycicline..is this to use AFTER the 14 days on Baytril is up (Saturday) or to switch to as soon as I get it?

Charis..I have always suspected the birds had related illness except they have been with me for about a year with no symptoms until now. I also had another sick bird a few weeks ago ( a homegrown, not a rescue). The vet did extensive tests, exrays, consulted a specialist, did a fecal etc...nothing. They finally decided it ate too much grit, got backed up and then passed the propblem, though it had a course of Baytril for good measure at the time. It is back in the loft doing fine. I am thinking that bird's issue is unrelated to these others...so with that said, here would be the check list of symptoms of the three of the four rescues who came together.. 

bird 1...May 2008, loss of appetite, lethargy/weakness, weight loss, greenish poops, death. 4 days from onset to death.
bird 2...June 2008, swollen ankle/limp, weakness, huge black smelly poops, neck twist then immediate death. 8 days from onset to death.
bird 3...June 2008, loss of appetite, weight loss, rapid breathing, 18 days from onset to now, last 10 days on baytril, laid one egg 4 days ago. 

We had believed paratyphoid...so treated hen with baytril. Her appetite and energy are both better, but respirations remain way high (45/50) and weight is still low.

Is the best estimate still paratyphoid? Baytril followed by Doxycycline or ????


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Usually, their respiration rates will come down after about three or four days of Baytril if it's going to respond to Baytril and it'll do it little by little--you can literally get a lower count every half-day or so. Of course, they can get more than one thing at a time. That's what's bothering me about this one. Paratyphoid isn't the only thing that can cause articular problems, either.

I'd probably start the Doxycycline whenever you get it, under the circumstances. Another thing that we need to look at is exactly what Doxycycline it is. They show it to be "Doxycycline Hyciage" but I think they meant "Doxycycline Hyclate". The dosages are different between the normal stuff and the Hyclate. The Hyclate runs about double in the formulary but that's at first glance. Those pills from Jedds are 100 mg, which would need to be chopped up into sixths or something like that. What's the bird weigh?

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I'll get the scale out and get back to this site with the hen's weight after the evening muck and feed of the livestock. Thanks so much for your help.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Cannot even begin to weigh this hen....really feisty then starts to breathe really hard with her mouth open...I am afraid the stress will kill her!

I will order the Doxy...assuming this bird's weight is equal to an underweight, medium sized homer..what would that be?

In the meantime, should I stay on the baytril? Add vitamins or ACV to her water? Try to hand feed Exact again...in really small doses? (But this really stresses her out and she starts to gasp and choke. I would prefer to bulk up her calories so what she DOES eat does more good. I have added safflower seeds to her regular blend already. Other options?) 

I am afraid the green poops (brown poops in a watery green puddle) mean starvation...but I do not know why she is not eating enough. She is eating some seed so is capable of doing so.

"It is a puzzlement!"


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Puzzlement indeed, cuz she sound awful feisty for anyone needing medication or othersupport! A tough call. can u try weighing her at night, after dark?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You put them in a paper bag to weight them.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

She starts to pant so badly, I will just have to estimate any meds based on lighter than average...rather than her actual weight. I will be able to see if she gains weight by her keel. And I can see improvement if her respirations calm down.

I hope she makes it until I can get the new meds....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they can put on a good show and die within minutes. She gets winded because, for whatever reason, she can't get enough oxygen. That can also mean that she can't digest very much food at a time, either. It takes energy to do that and it might be energy that she doesn't have. Therefore, one of the best things you can do is give her all the water she wants and get her under a heat lamp just a foot above her. You just make sure that she can get out from under it if she wants to. That can buy you some time because it can mean that they burn a lot less Calories trying to maintain temperature.

Keep her on the Baytril until the other stuff gets there. You might also go to a local feed store and get some Aureomycin or Terramycin powder. Those are Chlortetracycline and Oxytetracycline, respectively. They're not as good as Doxycycline but they could certainly work if the infection is susceptible to Tetracyclines.

Does she vocalize in any way and, if so, has there been a change in the sound as though it's muffled?

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Thank you all...

She has not vocalized.
She is now on a heating pad (on low) with free access to water and seed.
(She can move OFF the pad of she wants to do so. I do not have a heat lamp.)
I will try to get the other meds in the AM, and will keep her on baytril until then...tho it does not appear to be working really well for her....except she IS stilll alive long after the other two had passed away...so maybe it is working a little bit. 

I'll post her status in the AM.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can review this thread about Henny:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14465

...to see how similar your bird's condition sounds.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I read the thread about Henny...

So should I try to get some tetracycline or the doxycycline or are they similar...or nystatin? or all of the above?

My hen does not appear to be vomiting and her poops do not smell, but her loft mate's did when he died.

Also, would the baytril she has been on not work because she also had grit available the whole time? No one told me to remove the grit...

Grasping at straws here as she seems to be getting a little bit weaker today...more laying down.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd try to get any Tetracycline that you can get today and start her this morning if possible.

Pidgey


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

just a thought here, ( I'am not exerienced on sick pigeons)...Harrison's bird food has a recovery formula, It is a complete nutritional support for sick or injured birds. or they also have a high potency fine and high potency super fine feed for recovering from an illiness or affected by liver or kidney disease. they are online and based in TN. it is all organic, they may be able to overnight you some to get it into her asap....


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*tetracycline dosage help*

Got the tetracycline...saw a post from Brad last year quoting dosage as 500 mg. per 16 oz. of water as sole drinking water for 5 - 10 days...

confirm please before I administer this to the hen...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd rather you did a dose down her gullet because she's not self-feeding or drinking very well. Got a 1 milliliter syringe?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Exactly what Tetracycline is it, by the way?

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

it is from the aquarium...250 packet powder by Mardel. I need the dosage for in the water. She gets way too stressed by handling right now. Her respirations went from 30-35 when I stood at a distance back up to 48-50 as I got closer to her cage this afternoon.

Is Brad's dosage correct for in the water?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Working on it.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Pidgey,...even at age 99, you are still a life saver! I assume you know I meant to type 250 mg? Brad said 500 mg in 16 oz of water I think.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not the world's easiest thing to predict, how much she's going to drink. Go with what Brad said as listed above. In theory, she's about 350 grams and she should drink about 5% of her weight in water per day. That would be 350 * .05 = 17.5 mL. 16 ounces of water is very close to 500 mL, so at 500 milligrams in 500 mL, you get about 1 milligram per milliliter. Therefore, her total dose for the day would be 17.5 milligrams. From one of the formularies, straight Tetracycline for pigeons is 50 milligrams per kilogram, TD (Total Dose) per day. A 350 gram bird would be 0.35 * 50 = 17.5 milligrams, total daily dose.

Looks good, so let's also carefully measure out how much medicated water you put in her bowl and let's see how much she consumes in one day. Try to make sure that she doesn't spill any, if possible.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, let's see if she survives and gets better before throwing any praises out--I'm superstitious that way and life hasn't done anything but reinforce the sentiment.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I'll mix it up and measure how much I put in her dish and then measure what she drank overnight....how much water should she drink a day? ...to get her dose?

There is no way I could have done that math...I am brain dead when it comes to figures so when I called you a life saver...I meant MINE...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

From the book, pigeons drink about 5 to 8% of their weight per day. It can range widely due to a lot of factors, heat and relative humidity figuring prominently. She should drink just short of 20 milliliters per day but she could certainly drink more or less, depending. For instance, some illnesses that they can get can cause them to cycle an awful lot of water through their kidneys and they can go through 200, 300, 400% of their normal intake per day. Other birds are incredibly conservative on water in the back end and poop out pellets so dry that they're about like puppy chow. Those birds can drink considerably less.

So, we're just going to have to see how she does. Sometimes they don't like the taste of medicated water and just don't drink it. We're stuck with trying to figure that out. Best of luck.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Thank you...if she has not drunk any of it all by by the morning, should I return regular water to her cage as opposed to leaving medicated water? I work days and do not want her to die of dehydration while I am at work. It will be in the 100s tomorrow so she is on a heating pad at nights only.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I don't think they'll let themselves die of thirst due to bad tasting water. I think that mostly applies to flock treating your loft when a lot of the birds are just fine and in good shape.

Don't worry about it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, I only mean "don't worry about" insofar as it applies to her choosing to die of thirst rather than drinking that possibly nasty tasting stuff.

I'm still worried about the bird.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

She made it through the night...does not look like she drank much...but they sometimes do not over night...she seems to be eating some food with extra safflower seeds. Her breathing seems to be easier, not so fast as earlier, but you look for little signs and could just be hopeful thinking. Maybe by tonight there will be more to report.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I hope you continue to see her get seemingly better.

Thanks for the update.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Thurs. PM..she had either drank or played in the med/water because there was a big damp patch around it. She was alert and standing at her seed dish when I got home. So far so good. I plan to go out a bit later to check her respirations again.


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

i have the same thing i have a old classic frill hen that usually is always flying away from me when i go in the coop and then she was on the floor so i picked her up and she is very skinny she has a youngster but he is almost ready to go on his own soon i looked at her face from the food from feeding the young and she had a peice of straw up her nose so i pulled it out ..___ about that long and then today she had food on her nose so i had to peal if off. idk what happen but she sure eats fine and drinks too


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Well the little hen is holding her own...she is eating and drinking, taking tetracycline in her water for three days now. Her respirations are still too fast and I expected to see some improvement in that thru either the baytril course or, when that did not work, the tetracycline. Under stress she will still "pant", but no discharges, wheezing or sneezing. Her poops are still a little green. If she were not eating or drinking, she would be gone by now but she is still very skinny. Hand feeding though nearly killed her with the stress of it all.

If the respirations do not normalize in the next day or two, what other "family" of meds should I try next?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> From the book, pigeons drink about 5 to 8% of their weight per day. It can range widely due to a lot of factors, heat and relative humidity figuring prominently. She should drink just short of 20 milliliters per day but she could certainly drink more or less, depending. For instance, some illnesses that they can get can cause them to cycle an awful lot of water through their kidneys and they can go through 200, 300, 400% of their normal intake per day. Other birds are incredibly conservative on water in the back end and poop out pellets so dry that they're about like puppy chow. Those birds can drink considerably less.
> 
> So, we're just going to have to see how she does. Sometimes they don't like the taste of medicated water and just don't drink it. We're stuck with trying to figure that out. Best of luck.
> 
> Pidgey




In this clime and Season here, or in the Southern Mojave, a healthy 6 day old 'peeper' will drink more than than 20 Mililitres in-a-day.

A two week old 'peeper' will likely drink 80 to 100 mLs a day.

A 3 Week old, probably 150 or 180...


An healthy Adult feral Pigeon of 250 - 300 Grammes there-abouts, with no 'flushing' issues, will easily drink 300 - 600 Mili-Litres in a 24 hour period depending the individual and or their amount of excercise or exhertions.


I know the Cage Birds here, convelesent Adult Pigeons, ones with no 'flushing' issues, and not getting any excercise to speak of, drink a whole flat-bottom Coffee cup worth in half-a-day, and I have to scrub and refill by evening...and agin in the morning.


My 'weighless' Wing drooping fellow, drinks about 180 Mls a-day...with no spills, no flushings. and my smallish Mourning Doves weigh about as he does for Pete's sake.



I just measured one of these Cups, and it was 240 Mili-Litres.


So some of these 'Cage Pigeons' getting over injury or illness, are drinking in the vicinity of 400 plus mLs in 24 Hours.

Ones who are active or flying, it is even more.

Active outdoor Ferals, even more...of course.

It has been around 110 or 112 degrees last few days, with very low Humidity.


If I work outside in Summer, here, like when I redid the Roof, I was likely drinking two and a half Gallons of Liquid a day, and, I weigh 145 Pounds, and even at that rate of intake, I'd pee next to nothing, not even a Tea cup worth...so three Gallons is more like what it takes for my size and weight if moderately active in these Heats.

Other people just pass out or fall over or get sick, possibly, because they do not drink enough Liquids...and or they refuse to work out of Doors in Summer day conditions.




Twelve or fifteen pre-release, indoor free fly or floor-bird Adults getting very moderate excercise, will drink a Gallon in less than 24 hours...no 'spills'...

Presently, the inside "Aviary" here ( aka, what used to be my little Appartment ) the 35 odd Pigeons in there drink almost 3 Gallons ( call it around 2.5 Gallons ) every 24 Hours.




I read these instructions in Water Borne Medications, where it anticipates twenty Pigeons will drink a "litre" in 24 Hours or whatever it is.


Ha!

Not here...

Here, that same 20 Pigeons would drink five or six times that...they'd drink a Gallon and a Half, easy.




Books written in Belgium where it is cool, overcast, and perpetually damp, regarding Pigeons in small Lofts, did not take into account other climes..!


So for me, if in days of oderate exhertion, I would need to drink 3 Gallons of Water, which is about 22 Pounds I recon.

I weigh 145...so...

That is a ratio of Water to Body Weight of about 1 Pound of Water/electrolytes/Juices/whatever, to every 6.5 Pound of Body Weight.


Birds, I would expect to need even more...weight to Water ratio.



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Medicated-Water wise...

One can add fruit Juices, Licorice Entracts, or other wholesome, non-precipitating natural Flavors, which will allow the Water then to have an acceptable taste to the Bird in question.

Individual Birds will show individual preferences of course, so it is good to experiment, and to have on hand, various things to do this with.


Cherry Juice, Elderberry Juice, Cranberry Juice, Lemonaide even, all are very good for the convelesent Pigeon anyway, and, one or another of these will likely be found to be agreeable to their taste when added to Medicine Water.

They can be added fairly generously, too, and in most cases the Pigeon will like it.


Anise, Licorice, Sassafras, Root Beer, Sarsaparilla, or other old time 'Extracts' similarly are old favorites for this.



When experimenting, just be sure to observe that whatever is added, does not occasion a precipitation of the Medicine, which one would see as occuring on the bottom of the Water Cup.


I have never seen it happen, but it is best to know of it, to be sure and notice it, if it is.



Phil
l v


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*Tetracycline--how long?*

Today the hen's respiration is normal for the first time. She is alert and her poops are less runny and less green. This is day 4 on tetracycline. How long should I keep this med going and afterwards is there any specific followup? If she continues to recover and gain weight, when is it safe to return her to the aviary? (Safe for her and safe for the rest.) Thank you.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It kinda' depends on what it was that she had, which we don't know. For instance, if it had been Chlamydophila (highly unlikely since that usually begins to affect all or most of a loft), you'd need to treat for 45 days. If it were something like Henny got, you'd probably only go about 10 days. Personally, I think it'd be best just to plan for 10 and evaluate how she's doing when that time comes. I think I'd keep her separated for awhile after you stop the drugs to give her immune system time to power back up as antibiotic treatments usually cause some immunosuppression. I'd probably give it a week or two.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Thanks...when she seems startled or stressed like when we are clenaing her cage...her respirations go up. When I let her sit for a few minutes, they go back down. I think this might be normal?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, excitability sometimes makes diagnosing difficult. There were some symptoms earlier that were pretty worrisome, though. Weight loss is never good, either.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Yeah...the weight loss and the panting were the big problems. The panting was 24/7...now, at rest her respirations are normal. She is eating and pooping more too so I expect should be putting on weight...as her breathing gets better, I will weigh her.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Weight loss is never good, either.


As absolute statements go, that one's a little flawed... I could stand to lose a few pounds.

Pidgey the Plump


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Any new news?

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Thanks for asking...I had a related question too...I started feeling badly for the hen being in isolation for so long. I also read a thread that said maybe they recover better when they see their friends and families. So when the weather has been good the last few days, I have moved her cage back outside next to the loft on a table so she can see in. Then back into the garage with the heating pad at night.

She seemed to enjoy it, got excited, tried to fly etc...for the last two days her respirations have been normal. She has finished the course of tetracycline. (after a course of baytril did not seem to help) She is eating and drinking. Her only symptom is her lite weight, poops a little greenish and when she gets stressed she pants. Maybe the panting is normal under stress  but I am hesitant to put her back in the loft with her being weak and lite. When I did that with the other one who I removed at the same time last month he tried to fly, then collapsed and died. 

Both for her strength, weight and the health of the rest of the loft, how long should she stay in isolation with heat? How many days should her breathing be normal before I pronounce her "well" (assuming the panting under stress is normal?)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got one ole' busted-up hen (Pattie Cakers... don't ask) that gets sick from time to time and I have to bring her in for a tune-up. It usually takes a couple of months before she's all filled back out to her best weight, but it can take three. I'd probably say the weight was the best thing to watch.

Pidgey


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