# Squeakers not walking !!!



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

I have two 3 week or so old chicks that are not standing or walking at all. All they want to do now is drag themselves around in the nest or bottom of the coop if they fall out. Their legs look drawn up and contracted under them. 

Help !!!!


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sounds like a vitamin deficiency.. do you give the parents calcium and do they(parent birds) have access to sunlight?


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

Spirit, thanks for replying so quick. Yes to the sunlight, no to the calcium. I feed grit on a regular basis but I don't think it is calcium. Any other ideas that may help.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2010)

dawitner said:


> Spirit, thanks for replying so quick. Yes to the sunlight, no to the calcium. I feed grit on a regular basis but I don't think it is calcium. Any other ideas that may help.


what exactly are you feeding them is the real question and do you feed just grain or with pellets or pellets alone .. calcium itself isnt something most people just add to their feed or grit unless your eggshells are thin


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dawitner said:


> Spirit, thanks for replying so quick. Yes to the sunlight, no to the calcium. I feed grit on a regular basis but I don't think it is calcium. Any other ideas that may help.


CALCIUM! the squabs need it to grow bones and muscle... get it into them asap.... give crushed oyster shell in a croc for the parents.. but these guys need probably a half at a time 500 ml natural oytsershell tab + vit D from the drug store.. put down(or back of the throat) the throat.. to swallow....they will swallow it.. try that as soon as you can.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> CALCIUM! the squabs need it to grow bones and muscle... get it into them asap.... give crushed oyster shell in a croc for the parents.. but these guys need probably a half at a time 500 ml natural oytsershell tab from the drug store.. put down(or back of the throat) the throat.. to swallow....they will swallow it.. try that as soon as you can.


I think you just need to have feed in front of the parents at all times and they should do much better , calcuim boosts couldnt hurt but honestly I dont think that is the problem here ..I never give calcium supplements to my birds and have yet to have a problem in all my years ... you do offer your birds grit thou at all times dont you ?


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> I think you just need to have feed in front of the parents at all times and they should do much better , calcuim boosts couldnt hurt but honestly I dont think that is the problem here ..I never give calcium supplements to my birds and have yet to have a problem in all my years ... you do offer your birds grit thou at all times dont you ?


grain feed is typically deficient in calcium they need it from what he has stated, would be my first guess in what they need.. you give grit/oystershell.. so all has been well.. And protein.. is important also.. the grain feed should be at least 16% protein to raise babies.. and a vitamin suppliment given to the parent birds BEFORE breeding would of been a good thing.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> grain feed is typically deficient in calcium they need it from what he has stated, would be my first guess in what they need.. you give grit/oystershell.. so all has been well.. And protein.. is important also.. the grain feed should be at least 16% protein to raise babies.. and a vitamin suppliment given to the parent birds BEFORE breeding would of been a good thing.


there is no mention of how much feed thru out the day and what type for that matter so we should wait for an answer as to what he feeds first before advising what his birds may need at this point  as for grain feeds ,alot of people feed grains alone with regular grit and most have no problems ..like I said I dont add calcium and never had a problem with babys and growth to date  I will add thou that feeding chicken layer pellets thru breeding isnt a bad idea to up the nutrition intake for the babys and it has alot that the babys can benefit from as well !


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> there is no mention of how much feed thru out the day and what type for that matter so we should wait for an answer as to what he feeds first before advising what his birds may need at this point  as for grain feeds ,alot of people feed grains alone with regular grit and most have no problems ..like I said I dont add calcium and never had a problem with babys and growth to date  I will add thou that feeding chicken layer pellets thru breeding isnt a bad idea to up the nutrition intake for the babys and it has alot that the babys can benefit from as well !


grain feed is defecient in calicum..period... he has not given any...that is the place to start.. then go from there..and then the guessing on diseases can start..


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> grain feed is defecient in calicum..period... he has not given any...that is the place to start.. then go from there..and then the guessing on diseases can start..


where do you read what he has been feeding these birds ? I seem to not be able to find that post if you have read that ?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Usually this would be Calcium related issues...

Sometimes B Vitamin related ( or both ).


Could also be Kidney inflamation related...Viral infections bothering the Kidneys...


How many 'Squeakers' are being effected?

&

What to the poops look like?


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> where do you read what he has been feeding these birds ? I seem to not be able to find that post if you have read that ?


not what, but what he has not.....


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I honestly would try the calcium first. They do need it for strong bones, and could be the reason why they aren't standing by now.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> not what, but what he has not.....


lol.. please do tell us everything and everything you are giving your birds at this time and how much ... food, what type , grit,oystershells and minerals or not ??


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dawitner said:


> Spirit, thanks for replying so quick. Yes to the sunlight, no to the calcium. I feed grit on a regular basis but I don't think it is calcium. Any other ideas that may help.


not me Lakota.... him... "no to the calcium"... they need it....hopefull that is all that is wrong.. that would be my best guess at this point as he has not posted latley.....then go from there....


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Usually the Parents would be provided Oyster Shell based Grit, or, Calcium enriched Grit of some kind, to then in feeding the Babys, provide them with it.

B Vitamins sometimes also can be lacking.


Either are easy to supply, and by various means.


Sometimes 'Squeakers' are perfectly healthy in every way, but, so constantly over-fed, and over-large and weighty for their age, this alone can cause them to find standing or walking difficult! But, these would be passive, and not using their Wings to compensate.


I have one right now who is this way, he is very strong, but just HUGE and HEAVY for his age...

Seeing them use their Wings to compensate, does suggest Leg weakness. So...


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> not me Lakota.... him... "no to the calcium"... they need it....hopefull that is all that is wrong.. that would be my best guess at this point as he has not posted latley.....then go from there....


my point was I dont give calcium to my birds either and they have no problems walking at all and I have 4 oops babys out in the loft right now 1 pair about2 weeks old and the other 3 weeks old so it could be something else ..we just need to know what all he feeds the birds and how much as if he feeds pellets they usually have calcium in them


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> my point was I dont give calcium to my birds either and they have no problems walking at all and I have 4 oops babys out in the loft right now 1 pair about2 weeks old and the other 3 weeks old so it could be something else ..we just need to know what all he feeds the birds and how much as if he feeds pellets they usually have calcium in them


you feed half grain and half pellets..so all is good with your oopsies... sounds like he does not..... but hope he does enlighten us...


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> you feed half grain and half pellets..so all is good with your oopsies... sounds like he does not..... but hope he does enlighten us...


your right its true and your right I do believe in half pellet /half grains at least for the benefits of my birds lol but many feed grains alone with just grit and they do fine but Im sure every little bit of info here will help this person out and beneft in the long run so keep up the info influx so they can only benefit from it  just so you know I feed pellet cuz its good for them and plus its cheaper then grain lol


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

dawitner said:


> I have two 3 week or so old chicks that are not standing or walking at all. All they want to do now is drag themselves around in the nest or bottom of the coop if they fall out. Their legs look drawn up and contracted under them.
> 
> Help !!!!


They may be sick. paratiphoid could be the problem. Are they getting off weight. look a little thin. If so it can be the problem. And they may not make it if thats it. If so you may need to treat the parent birds also. Sure grit oyster shell would give calcium But some how I think thats not the problem. If it was or is oyster shell tabs would get them up to par fast. Legs drawn up are toes curled Cocsidioses can cause this also. Hopefully its not either one Not seeing the birds it harder to say. But Like I said if it is they will get worse. Keep use up dated.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Can you tell us how much each of the babies weighs? Helpful to know if we are dealing with overweight or underweight or neither.

I'll throw Brewer's Yeast into the mix here .. it can work wonders with youngsters that are vitamin/mineral deficient.

Terry


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Feed*

I only have 4 birds so I feed a bagged grain mix with vitamin supplement. It states on the back:

11.0 % protein

.05 % calcium

40 mg/kg/day iron

.8 mg/kg/day copper

0.6 mg/kg iodine

7500 iu/kg vitamin A

500 iu D3

15 iu Vitamin E

I only feed once a day but leave all the water in two different containers. 

Their poops are kinda greenish if that helps. 

I will try the calcium supplement route. This is the second set of chicks hatched and fledged in the same coop and I had not trouble at all with the first brood. 

Thanks again


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

I'll weight the babies today and let you know.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*rehab therapy and loads of nutrition....*

I have/had a couple of buda/helmet babies (about 4 weeks old) that also would NOT stand or walk, and their muscles had to be excercised as they had no muscle tone. I still don't know what the problem was, but their legs are extra long being they are mix breed. I know they got plenty of nutrition which I increased anyway plus daily sunbaths. I have had many babies in my coop and never ever seen this.

I began to gently lift them up everyday and made them stand up for short periods of time and increased the time, until they started comfortably standing on their own. Instead of laying down pruning and picking themselves they now stood up pruning and picking themselves. Soon as they started standing better I forced them to walk short periods of time and increased the time. I did this many times daily until they were walking well on their own. Before this they would use their wings to flap and get up and move.

They are now fast little runners and flyers, you never would have thought they ever had a problem. One has a mate and new home now!

This was the way I resolved their issue, not sure if that will work for you, but I certainly would try it if they are otherwise healthy and show no signs of disease.

Here is a thread on the little oopsies.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/my...res-42943-4.html?highlight=buda+helmet+babies


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

Ground up two calcium supplement tabs along with Albon antibiotic for coccidiosis and fed today. Will dose every day until something changes. I will also try liftiing and supporting them so they may develop a little strength in their legs. They do not show any signs of disease, no sores etc. that I see and except for being dirty from draging themselves around appear sound. 

Thanks again


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Not too good*

Well lost one bird, went out about a half hour after the calcium and antibiotics to try to feed and one had passsed. I brought the other in and cleaned it up, he had poop all over his rear, we have been gone for 4 days, fed him a mixture of very finely ground grain and warm water and put him back. Checked and fed a couple hours later and he actually seemed to have perked up. I just fed him again and he is actually trying to stand (a little). I then got the great idea to grind up some pellets and see what kind of gruel they make, they seem to work fine so next feeding I will try that. 

I have been using a cut off 1cc syringe to feed with, it works but not great. I don't have any irrigation syringes, any suggestions ?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry the one little one passed away. 

If these babies are three weeks old, they should be taking quite a bit of "formula" .. for sure 15-30 cc/ml per feeding. Try putting your "formula" in a shot glass or similar container. I'm not sure how they could be getting enough from a cut off 1 cc syringe .. perhaps I'm misunderstanding or incorrectly envisioning what you posted.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dawitner, 


Is there any 'yellow' tint to the Urates?

And or, can you post some images of the poops/urates?


Some Tube Feed Appliance info here - 


http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/578005139kkdMDX


Any Home Medical supply Store will have 10 mL plain nose Syringes, and, No 8 French, 'clear', silicone, pediatric Urinary Cateters...neither costs much.


Lube the Catheter with KY or Olive Oil and make sure no pressure is used in sliding it in and down into the Crop...twirl if need be, be very gently, have the Pigeon so his head is being held Beak "up" and open, so his Neck is a straight shot all the way down. Make very sure you introduce the end of the Catheter into his actual Throat/Esopagus which is rearmost in his Mouth.

His Treachia/Windpipe, is mid way back in his Mouth and must be avoided of course.




Phil
Lv


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dawitner said:


> Well lost one bird, went out about a half hour after the calcium and antibiotics to try to feed and one had passsed. I brought the other in and cleaned it up, he had poop all over his rear, we have been gone for 4 days, fed him a mixture of very finely ground grain and warm water and put him back. Checked and fed a couple hours later and he actually seemed to have perked up. I just fed him again and he is actually trying to stand (a little). I then got the great idea to grind up some pellets and see what kind of gruel they make, they seem to work fine so next feeding I will try that.
> 
> I have been using a cut off 1cc syringe to feed with, it works but not great. I don't have any irrigation syringes, any suggestions ?
> 
> Thanks for the help.



Try using an eye dropper to put the food to the back of the mouth. About 1/3 of the eye dropper at a time. That or get the larger syringe to use cut off.


----------



## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

dawitner said:


> Ground up two calcium supplement tabs along with *Albon antibiotic for coccidiosis* and fed today. Will dose every day until something changes. I will also try liftiing and supporting them so they may develop a little strength in their legs. They do not show any signs of disease, no sores etc. that I see and except for being dirty from draging themselves around appear sound.
> 
> Thanks again


Are you sure its coccidiosis ???

Also calcium + antibiotics is not usually advised. Some antibiotics (including tetracyclines) react with calcium and reduce absorbance into the body.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I believe Albon can be given with calcium, but treating them for coccidiosis, when you are just guessing at what may be the problem just doesn't make sense. There are so many things that could be causing it. Are you going to work down the list, and treat for each illness that it could be? If you were to bring a poop sample to a vet and have it checked, they may be able to tell you what it is, rather than giving different meds to such young birds.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I believe Albon can be given with calcium, but treating them for coccidiosis, when you are just guessing at what may be the problem just doesn't make sense. There are so many things that could be causing it. Are you going to work down the list, and treat for each illness that it could be? If you were to bring a poop sample to a vet and have it checked, they may be able to tell you what it is, rather than giving different meds to such young birds.


You are right a vet/lab could of done a culture and sensitivity test ..and he could treat accordingly... I do not like the shot gun approach.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You should treat the rest of your birds If its what i think it is. coccidi. or parthyphoid. As they will be carrying it. You can use regular old sulmet it works and can be added to the water. plus it does not hit them hard. Making them throwup and such when its mixed right. Or this problem will show its face agin. As I really do not think its vit, related. plus clean your wares with bleach and clean them at least 1 time weekly with bleach. Any desease is spread more from waters then any wher else in a loft. As all birds drink from the same water if open loft. plus spilled grains get soiled cause Ecoli. Just a thought


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

"Diagnosis Establishment of a proper diagnosis before treatment begins is extremely important. Shotgun treatment often produces poor results, delays recovery to when the proper drug is finally found, and often produces drug-resistant bacteria and parasites. We can not stress strongly enough, in the case of antibiotics, that a culture and sensitivity be done to make sure the antibiotic used is needed and effective. Just because a drug is noted to be effective against many cases of E. coli doesn't mean it is effective against all cases. More and more drug-resistant bacteria occur every day and can best be treated when proper diagnosis are used first."


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

spirit wings said:


> "Diagnosis Establishment of a proper diagnosis before treatment begins is extremely important. Shotgun treatment often produces poor results, delays recovery to when the proper drug is finally found, and often produces drug-resistant bacteria and parasites. We can not stress strongly enough, in the case of antibiotics, that a culture and sensitivity be done to make sure the antibiotic used is needed and effective. Just because a drug is noted to be effective against many cases of E. coli doesn't mean it is effective against all cases. More and more drug-resistant bacteria occur every day and can best be treated when proper diagnosis are used first."


If it is what i think it is Most young birds this age do not survive. We can not tell as no one has seen even a picture of the young birds. 1 is dead now. Most pigeon keepers do not take there birds to a vet. As many Have been in the birds long enough to have a good idea what they are dealing with. Problem with giving ideas over the enternet is can not see the bird. I asked before if the young birds were also dropping weight. Often they will show the keel breats bone starting to show thining of the breast. Can not walk legs and feet drawup begin to get staddle leged and then die. And treeatment at this age is so so and they if survive mature slowly. Some can survive But adult birds have that better chance. As they are not growing and do not dehydrate as much. But agin i may very well be wrong. As agin not seeinmg and no pictures its a guess. Far as meds Young birds can not be given as much as full size birds. And sulmet is mild enough if given right to at least give them a chance. I guess in less then a weak we will see how the remaining bird does. But agin probably 85 percent of pigeon breeders do not contact a vet. But many do get yearly fecal exams done to check loft health.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> If it is what i think it is Most young birds this age do not survive. We can not tell as no one has seen even a picture of the young birds. 1 is dead now. Most pigeon keepers do not take there birds to a vet. As many Have been in the birds long enough to have a good idea what they are dealing with. Problem with giving ideas over the enternet is can not see the bird. I asked before if the young birds were also dropping weight. Often they will show the keel breats bone starting to show thining of the breast. Can not walk legs and feet drawup begin to get staddle leged and then die. And treeatment at this age is so so and they if survive mature slowly. Some can survive But adult birds have that better chance. As they are not growing and do not dehydrate as much. But agin i may very well be wrong. As agin not seeinmg and no pictures its a guess. Far as meds Young birds can not be given as much as full size birds. And sulmet is mild enough if given right to at least give them a chance. I guess in less then a weak we will see how the remaining bird does. *But agin probably 85 percent of pigeon breeders do not contact a vet. But many do get yearly fecal exams done to check loft health.*





Well then shame on them, if when they have sick birds it is not worth their while to bring a poop sample to the vet. It doesn't cost that much to do that, and at least you would be able to get the proper drug to treat them with. As spiritwings mentioned, sometimes a particular bacteria will be sensitive to one med and not another. You could waste a lot of time and money treating a bird with the wrong meds. If it dies, then you got about as much as you were willing to put into it. Just not fair to the bird is all.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Well then shame on them, if when they have sick birds it is not worth their while to bring a poop sample to the vet. It doesn't cost that much to do that, and at least you would be able to get the proper drug to treat them with. As spiritwings mentioned, sometimes a particular bacteria will be sensitive to one med and not another. You could waste a lot of time and money treating a bird with the wrong meds. If it dies, then you got about as much as you were willing to put into it. Just not fair to the bird is all.


You have to remember Many a person may have over 100 birds at all times. And have been in the hobby for a number of years. plus Many vets do not cater to pigeons. Some send there fecal matter to get there exams. learning how to take care of the birds is part of the hobby. And reconizing sickness is part of the learning. Many pigeon keepers over the years have seen most all related pigeon deseases through there own or club members birds. Thats only why the pigeon product seel companies sell the different meds Is because it was pigeon peolpe And A very small number of vets That these people talked into helping found the meds to work. and When small young birds like the 2 here come down with what this may be Treating the parent birds And if open loft to all other birds its best to do it or it WILL happen agin. I raised birds for about 50 years Never 1 time did I need a vet Because I learned what to do. Being active in a good club You learn But would reccommend send samples to a lab to find out pigeon health loft wise Now days. Some birds get sick and you have little time . Our problem Here as I said in another post is WE ARE TRYING TO BE COMPUTER VETS HELPING UNKOWN PROBLEMS. And many areas have NO vet that would touch a pigeon near by sad fact but sad truth. Some vets recomend a rehaber found local. In some areas. And A good pigeon person knows pigeons.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The thing is..the vet I work for is not a avian vet per say.. they do take and can send fecal samples in to be cultured..when that happens they look at it under the scope..identify the bacteria and give a sensitivity test..which is the part that they test to a certain drug that acctually works againts the known bacteria.... it is the best way to go about it hands down..we have come along way in 50 years... we need to use it.. and really, it probably cost less in the long run..with all the drugs people buy and test on their birds.. some work and they get it right or lucky...some don't... I want to know what Im dealing with..not what I think it may be...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, a Vet can also examine and analyse fecal samples imprmptu, with a Microscope, which is a different situation than sending out samples for Culture is.


Too, I am not sure Paratyphoid would be detectible in either method.


Maybe it is, and someone can let us know positively.


But, of course, quite a few things are detectible by one or both methods, and, ideally, both methods would be used to provide a wider picture.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Well, a Vet can also examine and analyse fecal samples imprmptu, with a Microscope, which is a different situation than sending out samples for Culture is.
> 
> 
> Too, I am not sure Paratyphoid would be detectible in either method.
> ...


Thought we were talking about cocci.. at least that is what I had in mind...these tests can rule things out as well..to narrow down disease guessing...and perhaps a good shot of picking the right med..if that is what one wants to do..


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh yeah...Coccidiosis should be easy to determine by a fecal float.


Somehow I thought there were concerns of Paratyphoid...


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Well, a Vet can also examine and analyse fecal samples imprmptu, with a Microscope, which is a different situation than sending out samples for Culture is.
> 
> 
> *Too, I am not sure ParaTtyphoid would be detectible in either method.*
> ...



Well you could certainly detect the salmonella that causes the paratyphoid by sending out a sample.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

spirit wings said:


> The thing is..the vet I work for is not a avian vet per say.. they do take and can send fecal samples in to be cultured..when that happens they look at it under the scope..identify the bacteria and give a sensitivity test..which is the part that they test to a certain drug that acctually works againts the known bacteria.... it is the best way to go about it hands down..we have come along way in 50 years... we need to use it.. and really, it probably cost less in the long run..with all the drugs people buy and test on their birds.. some work and they get it right or lucky...some don't... I want to know what Im dealing with..not what I think it may be...


I know we have come along way in 50 years But I thought a person who raised pigeons would know they need to learn about deseases that effect pigeons so they could treat them when needed. Yes sure some treat for every thing and no nothing. But a pigeon person that wants to learn the hobby will do just that learn. Using a vet is not wrong But its not allways handy BUT learning well ever body can learn . And it is not done in a year or two You would be surprised how many people can tell you the desease and what to use If they saw your bird. Because they learned from others in the hobby and there self The hobby is structured by clubs that spread the knowledge. And people who devote a great many years of there life to cultivate the birds.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

It would be wonderful if everyone could run out to a vet, but not everyone can for a number of reasons, so that's where this forum comes in. And we try to do the best we can with what info is given 
But I think a couple of points have been missed here, although I think Spirit wings hit it in the 1st posts.
1) squeakers come crawling and falling out of the nest for 1 reason - their hungry and looking for food.
2) These birds are only being fed once a day - with NO calcuim
3) The owner of these birds stated that they were *away for 4 days* prior to the 1st baby dieing. 
4) Green poops

*I think they are starving and the parents not getting proper nourishment.*
With the very little information given, these symptoms are what stick out in my mind.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> It would be wonderful if everyone could run out to a vet, but not everyone can for a number of reasons, so that's where this forum comes in. And we try to do the best we can with what info is given
> But I think a couple of points have been missed here, although I think Spirit wings hit it in the 1st posts.
> 1) squeakers come crawling and falling out of the nest for 1 reason - their hungry and looking for food.
> 2) These birds are only being fed once a day - with NO calcuim
> ...


That was my first instincts also.. then others will give another opinion and then it just gets all confusing..so really , when a simple culture can be done to identify something or rule something out instead of comming on here and he has 4 people telling him..it is this or no it may be this...it drives me crazy..and in the meantime the sick birds may or may not be getting the meds that it needs.. Im sorry but taking in a fecal sample to be sent off is not that hard..Anyone with birds can do this.. unless you live in the wilderness you can find a vet here in the USA, anyone with a flock or even just a few pigeons can call the hosp/vet clinic and ask for the vet to call you back , ask for the vet who is the owner or medical director..tell them about you wanting fecal cultures at times if needed and ask how much it cost etc..in otherwords make a relationship with them. If you ever have to do this and you get a positive report back and a recommendation of what med to use or even antifugal to go with it... you can get it off your shelf or order it from the pigeon supply ASAP, you do not have to have it filled by the vet..If they did fill it they would want to see the bird...so you would not have them fill the prescip. but get the meds from the pigeon supply we all know and love.... and yes someone with experience can guess at diesease and be right..but he can not tell what strain of bacteria it is...as over use of anitibiotics have caused resisitant strains and differing strains and our old stand by meds may not be the best choice.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> *It would be wonderful if everyone could run out to a vet, but not everyone can for a number of reasons, so that's where this forum comes in. And we try to do the best we can with what info is given *
> But I think a couple of points have been missed here, although I think Spirit wings hit it in the 1st posts.
> 1) squeakers come crawling and falling out of the nest for 1 reason - their hungry and looking for food.
> 2) These birds are only being fed once a day - with NO calcuim
> ...


If you are going to keep birds, then you should try to establish a relationship with a vet, at least for poop analysis on occasion. Sometimes, the advice given on a forum just isn't enough, and valuable time can be wasted.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> If you are going to keep birds, then you should try to establish a relationship with a vet, at least for poop analysis on occasion. Sometimes, the advice given on a forum just isn't enough, and valuable time can be wasted.


That is true, and I am not arguing that point.
BUT, it is NOT always possible. I can give you a perfect example..........
I work for a vet, have for over 38 years in MY area. There are NO GOOD AVIAN VETS IN MY AREA! I have run culture and sensitivities, floats, gram stains. WHAT good does it do, if you can't find a vet that can read it for pigeons, and prescribe the proper meds?
All I'm saying is.... I ran the samples, then came *here*, and got the proper advise. I LOST BIRDS while taking advise from the vets around HERE, I will not let that happen again. I can't speak for OTHER areas, ONLY where I live.
And I'm sure I'm not the ONLY one in that boat!
I'm sorry, but this is a very sore subject with me.......I work for vets, I know ALL the vets in my area- and NOT ONE WILL HELP ME


----------



## The_Dirteeone (Apr 18, 2010)

I give my captive breeders too much food when they have babys in the nest,and an expensive red grit,15 dollars a 50 pound bag.The grit has tons of minerals and calcium.This coming from a 7 month veteran of pigeon breeding.I used to raise cockatiels,and believe it or not that helped me with knowing how to keep breeding birds in good health.I have had around 20 babies this year and have been fortunate to loose only a couple to the hawk not in the nest,


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> That is true, and I am not arguing that point.
> BUT, it is NOT always possible. I can give you a perfect example..........
> I work for a vet, have for over 38 years in MY area. There are NO GOOD AVIAN VETS IN MY AREA! I have run culture and sensitivities, floats, gram stains. WHAT good does it do, if you can't find a vet that can read it for pigeons, and prescribe the proper meds?
> All I'm saying is.... I ran the samples, then came *here*, and got the proper advise. I LOST BIRDS while taking advise from the vets around HERE, I will not let that happen again. I can't speak for OTHER areas, ONLY where I live.
> ...


I so understand Waynette..lol..flagging a vet down is not always easy with their busy schedule and birds not being "their thing" and I have had tests run also...and I just ask the vet what is her opinion on what type of med to use.. I say thanks..and say I have it coverd as we can buy meds from pigeon supply..probably cheaper and easier than waiting on them to get around to finding it.. I keep the mainstays at the house just in case.. one can go ahead and give a broad spectrum antibiotic after the fecal is taken, if the culture comes back and it says to use more or less or another one , then switch over.. I think Iam going to learn to read the reports myself..I can call idexx directly and get them to help me as well.... and I just want to say that many a bird has been saved with guessing and being right.. better than not trying at all.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> I so understand Waynette..lol..flagging a vet down is not always easy with their busy schedule and birds not being "their thing" and I have had tests run also...and I just ask the vet what is her opinion on what type of med to use.. I say thanks..and say I have it coverd as we can buy meds from pigeon supply..probably cheaper and easier than waiting on them to get around to finding it.. I keep the mainstays at the house just in case.. one can go ahead and give a broad spectrum antibiotic after the fecal is taken, if the culture comes back and it says to use more or less or another one , then switch over.. I think Iam going to learn to read the reports myself..I can call idexx directly and get them to help me as well.... and I just want to say that many a bird has been saved with guessing and being right.. better than not trying at all.


We are fortunate enough to be able to send out the fecals ourselves, and I use Idexx Lab also  I have learned to read the results myself and treat if necessary, combined with the help I get on this forum. And I'm happy to say I haven't lost any birds.
But its just NOT as easy as some people think to find a vet that is "willing or able" to work with pigeons. 
I found that out years ago when I was loosing babies to "a yellow cheezy stuff in their throats, and couldn't eat or breath". I contacted every vet in my area to try to find out WHAT this was and how to treat, even the 2 avian vets didn't know what it was and told me to treat with baytril!!! Of course they died.
That's when I joined this forum and "found out" it was CANKER, and you treat with metronidazole! I haven't lost a bird to canker since.
Now WHY is it that the vets (in my area) did not know what this was and how to treat?!
I also took one of my birds to the local avian vet 2 years ago. She had been "light" for quite awhile, had labwork done and had been treating her. Nothing was working. I told her (the vet) I was afraid it might be "chronic paratyphoid". Her response was "I'm not familiar with that"
These are just examples of what I have had to deal with "in my area" - COME ON, REALLY! Shouldn't an avian vet know what canker and paratyphoid are?
This is why it is a sore subject with me and I have taken to doing the lab work MYSELF and treating MYSELF. I have all the medications on hand (anybody can get the meds that they need thru any pigeon supply - Foys, etc). The help and resources in this forum have saved my birds when needed - NOT the vets in my area - and I'm not in the "boonies" by any means!


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> That is true, and I am not arguing that point.
> BUT, it is NOT always possible. I can give you a perfect example..........
> I work for a vet, have for over 38 years in MY area. There are NO GOOD AVIAN VETS IN MY AREA! I have run culture and sensitivities, floats, gram stains. WHAT good does it do, if you can't find a vet that can read it for pigeons, and prescribe the proper meds?
> All I'm saying is.... I ran the samples, then came *here*, and got the proper advise. I LOST BIRDS while taking advise from the vets around HERE, I will not let that happen again. I can't speak for OTHER areas, ONLY where I live.
> ...



I realize that some areas are like that Waynette, I really do. But many times that is not the case, and that is what I'm talking about. When there is help available and not used. Then I guess it is just a matter of your priorities.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I realize that some areas are like that Waynette, I really do. But many times that is not the case, and that is what I'm talking about. When there is help available and not used. Then I guess it is just a matter of your priorities.


and money... folks have to pick and choose and the pigeons will not be at the top of the list when your trying to make ends meet..so they have to go with another approach....


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> and money... folks have to pick and choose and the pigeons will not be at the top of the list when your trying to make ends meet..so they have to go with another approach....


Like I said, all depends on your priorities.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

In case nobody has noticed, the person with these little birds hasn't posted since Sept. 7. That's probably not indicative of good news for the little bird that was still alive then.

We seem to have lost track of the little bird and have gone off in a direction/discussion that has been pounded into the ground many, many times here on Pigeon-Talk. There hasn't been a clear winner of the vet, no vet, priorities, realities discussion yet, and I doubt there will be this time. Let's please let it go.

Terry


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> In case nobody has noticed, the person with these little birds hasn't posted since Sept. 7. That's probably not indicative of good news for the little bird that was still alive then.
> 
> We seem to have lost track of the little bird and have gone off in a direction/discussion that has been pounded into the ground many, many times here on Pigeon-Talk. *There hasn't been a clear winner of the vet, no vet, priorities, realities discussion yet, and I doubt there will be this time. Let's please let it go.*
> 
> Terry


Good point.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> In case nobody has noticed, the person with these little birds hasn't posted since Sept. 7. That's probably not indicative of good news for the little bird that was still alive then.
> 
> We seem to have lost track of the little bird and have gone off in a direction/discussion that has been pounded into the ground many, many times here on Pigeon-Talk. There hasn't been a clear winner of the vet, no vet, priorities, realities discussion yet, and I doubt there will be this time. Let's please let it go.
> 
> Terry


OK 
I hate it when people don't come back and give an update


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> In case nobody has noticed, the person with these little birds hasn't posted since Sept. 7. That's probably not indicative of good news for the little bird that was still alive then.
> 
> We seem to have lost track of the little bird and have gone off in a direction/discussion that has been pounded into the ground many, many times here on Pigeon-Talk. There hasn't been a clear winner of the vet, no vet, priorities, realities discussion yet, and I doubt there will be this time. Let's please let it go.
> 
> Terry


 Thank you... That is where my mind was going when someone wants to push the the idea all people can afford Vet appts for their birds.


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Bird Still with us*

OK this little bird is still alive. I have been tube feeding him every 4 hours or so. He has gained weight and he now is trying to stand up however feebly. I believe he has gained weight but I do not have a scale accurate enough to measure. 

His poop has gone from bright green to a grey/green with white stringy like strands in it. 

I have been feeding a high protein/supplemented chick starter mixed into a paste and tubed into his gullet. 

Unfortunately I don't have a bird vet near me that I know and economically it really does not make sense for me to take a feral bird offspring to a vet. 

Any suggestions (minus judgments) would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawitner, a few quick suggestions, make sure this guy stays well hydrated to help assist the chick starter and I think you need to start to do some gentle physiotherapy on him, as it may be of benefit. Help him stand, up and down a number of times and see if you can pull on his leg and hold a few seconds to offer resistance as he tries to pull back. Not much different from us, you want to offer repeated effort and resistance to his legs and wings, as best you can. With his wings you can cup him in your hands and and lift him up and quickly start to lower your hands, like you are about to let go, but of course you will have him well held, to get him flapping his wings.

Good luck,

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Thanks*

Karyn, 

Thanks, I have been pullling on his legs trying to straighten them every time I feed. I will try the drop thing next time I have him out. 

I'm getting kind of use to him, he sits on top of the washing machine in a wash tub all day and I check him every time I go by. I'm on vacation this week and home most of the day.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you so much, Dawitner, for coming back and talking to us. You're doing well with the little bird. Please do keep us posted. There won't be any further "departures" from the subject here .. that's you and the little bird in your care and how best to care for the bird. 

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dawitner said:


> OK this little bird is still alive. I have been tube feeding him every 4 hours or so. He has gained weight and he now is trying to stand up however feebly. I believe he has gained weight but I do not have a scale accurate enough to measure.
> 
> His poop has gone from bright green to a grey/green with white stringy like strands in it.
> 
> ...



Hi Dawitner, 


Are you doing anything to 'up' his B-Complex intake?



If you are Tube Feeding, make the food 'Soupy'...( say, about like melted Ice Cream on a hot day ) it passes a lot better and easier, hence, faster, and adds to general hydration.


Make some ACV-Water, say, three Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon...and use that for mixing his formula.



Also, can you post some good, close up, in focus, images of some fresh poops?


Also, some good fairly close up images of his Legs and Feet.


Good going!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Thanks*

Thanks everyone for the hints. We made it through another night, I just fed again this am. I think maybe I was making the food a little thick so per your suggestions I will thin it some. 

I will try to post pictures today.


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Standing & Pictures*

OK, we are standing up today, sort of. Our feet are still crossed as you can see in the picture but I am much stronger. 

Poop is the same as yesterday, grey/green with white strings (urea??) in it. 

Hope this helps


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What is the formula?


Making it thinner, and, using the ACV Water to mix it, should be much better for him.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please do keep the poop cleaned off the bird's feet as it can burn and actually grow into the skin. This is one of the saddest pictures I have seen. I do think the bird needs to be evaluated by a veterinarian.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Is this little one getting any added calcium or vitamins?


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Supplements*

I am using a chick starter that has calcium supplement along with vitamins. I am also adding a 600 mg calcium tab crushed an mixed into the food every other day. 

Sorry about the poop, I have washed the little guy off with warm water and then dried him but I'm not too sure how wet to get him. 

Vet is out of the question, as I stated before resources are an issue. I have him in the house for the day and feed every couple of hours. 

What is ACV water ??????????


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

dawitner said:


> I am using a chick starter that has calcium supplement along with vitamins. I am also adding a 600 mg calcium tab crushed an mixed into the food every other day.
> 
> Sorry about the poop, I have washed the little guy off with warm water and then dried him but I'm not too sure how wet to get him.
> 
> ...


ACV is Apple cider vinegar, best to use "raw". You can get it at any health food store. If not, regular from the grocery store is fine.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

dawitner said:


> I am using a chick starter that has calcium supplement along with vitamins. I am also adding a 600 mg calcium tab crushed an mixed into the food every other day.
> 
> *Sorry about the poop, I have washed the little guy off with warm water and then dried him but I'm not too sure how wet to get him. *
> 
> ...


If you have him on a heating pad (set on LOW) you can sit him in *warm* water (in a sink or bowl) to clean him off, dry him with paper towels the best you can, then set him back on the heating pad. You don't have to get his back wet....just sit him in the warm water to clean his legs, feet and lower wing feathers. Just a couple inches of water.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, the Feet really should not be turned 'in' like this when at rest.


Can we have an image of the Legs dangling free? Dangling down?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

For this application, "ACV-Water" is raw, unfiltered, Organic ( "BRAGGS" - any Health Food Store ) Apple Cider Vinegar...


Three Tablespoons of the Vinegar to a Gallon of Water.


Use that Water then for mixing the formula.


What was the diet before the use of 'chick starter'?


And, does the 'chick starter' have antibiotics in it?


Was there a Sibling? Or other same age Babys/Youngsters concurrent with this one?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Well, the Feet really should not be turned 'in' like this when at rest.
> 
> 
> Can we have an image of the Legs dangling free? Dangling down?



Yes, as Phil mentions, we need a number of other photos of his legs, to see if there needs to be a form made up to help correct things. Keep up the physio, as lack of muscle mass/tone may be contributing to the problems we are seeing.

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Diet*

The diet before the starter was all grain, the last set of chicks from the same parents had no problems. The grain is vitamin and mineral supplemented. I also now supply crushed oyster shell. 

The chick starter does have amprolium in it. The chicks poops were bright green before now they have gone to a more normal grey/green color. 

The leg problem has been there from the beginning. There were two chicks and they both had it.


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Feed*

The orginal diet was all grain but the grain was/is supplemented with vitamins and minerals. 

There was another chick that passed but it too had the drawn up leg problem. 

I will switch to the ACV today, btw . . what does vinegar do ? 

I will also give the little guy another bath and try to get him cleaned up a little better. 

Any help is appreciated.


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Standing & Bath*

OK, I gave the little guy another bath today, I'm much cleaner and loving my heating pad. He has much more strength, can stand and hold his head up all the time now and even fights when I try to feed him. 

I tried the wing physio and I have begun to flap a little when I "drop" him. 

I added ACV to the feed this am and I guess now all I can do is wait. 


His feet still seem to be abducted (turned inward) when standing or on hhis back but that can wait until this bird gets up to full strenght.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dawitner said:


> OK, I gave the little guy another bath today, I'm much cleaner and loving my heating pad. He has much more strength, can stand and hold his head up all the time now and even fights when I try to feed him.
> 
> I tried the wing physio and I have begun to flap a little when I "drop" him.
> 
> ...



You do know that the ACV goes in the water right? A couple of Tablespoons to a gallon of water. You said in the feed, but probably meant in the water?


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Acv*

I have been tube feeding a mixture of finely ground food and water mixed into a slurry. I added the ACV to the water then used that to mix the food. 

I still have no idea what benefit the ACV has. I know vinegar has acetic acid in it which I believe is a good source of vitamin C but other than that can someone enlighten me on its benefits ??

BTW, even better tonight, it is a real fight to feed the little guy now. I will offer free choice food and water tomorrow.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The acidic ACV gives the gut an acidic environment that most bad bacteria do not like.


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Strong*

OK,this bird is plenty strong now, he really fights when I try to feed him. I gave him some water on his own today and he takes to it no problem. Now I have to try to straighten his legs. 

I have cut a piece of 1"foam and slit it and put between his legs from the "knee" towards his body to separate the legs. Tomorrow I may add another thickness to try to get the bird to straighten the other part of his legs. 


Anyone else had this problem ??


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Added picture*

Here is what it looks like with the foam. The bird seems very comfortable and does not want to fight.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good job on the legs! Think you need to do "booties" also or at least a ball in the bottom of the foot to keep the toes extended. 

You are really doing a great job here .. please stay with us, and we'll all get it done!

Terry


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Just in case you are not too sure about how to do "booties", here is a thread on them.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/wood-pigeon-chick-feet-problem-46758.html

Nice going,

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Booties*

It looked like they used Coban or something like that to straighten the feet. I have some that I use to wrap dogs legs with. Will give it a try. 

Thanks for the ball idea too !


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Feet*

OK, tried the self adhesive bandage idea on the feet. It seems to have worked. I laid the feet/toes out straight on it and pressed another piece on top. It seems to have adhered tightly and may work. 

How long do I leave these bandages on ??

Next, I am still tube feeding, how do I transition to regular food while this little guy is trussed up like he is.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawitner, glad to hear things went well for getting him fitted with "booties", I'll PM Feefo to have a look, as she will have a much better idea than I, on how long to keep the feet bandaged.

With the tube feeding, for now I would just accept that while you have him hobbled with foam and feet in booties, that you will just have to support him for a while yet and that he will just be one of those birds that self-feeding came later for. You could place a bit of seeds around him and peck with him at them with your crooked forefinger to start to show him what he should be doing and get start to get him use to picking up seeds. Phil has a very good post on how to feed seeds from your hand which I linked below to try as well.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=505648&postcount=9

Please keep us updated.

Karyn


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawitner, I received a message from Feefo (Cynthia) that we should go for three weeks with the booties on, so let's do that, and see how that goes. Also, I have re-read this thread again and had a few questions, have the parents produced and raised healthy young before, how do the parents seem in general (good weight, well feathered droppings looking good) any other instances of any other chicks having problems in the recent past or adults who seem a bit "off" in any way.

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*History*

Karyn, 

The parents have produced one other set of 2 chicks without problem. They were raised the exact same way as the second set and are not healthy and happy. 

No problems with the adults (that I can tell) poop appears normal, not runny or green and they are out on a regular basis. 

I have added oyster shell supplement to the feed. 

They are now sitting on one egg and we will see how that goes. 

BTW I have been using straw as bedding, any thoughts ?

Three weeks on the booties, that is going to be real tough, this little guy wants to fight everything. 

His legs appear to be actually crossed at the "knees" but his feet now seem to be more relaxed and not "clawed" up. 

He is also trying to stand but appears to be standing on his first joint with his feet crossed under him.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Before the thread got off track a bit, there where a few mentions of paratyphoid as perhaps being a cause and even before I got to the first suggestion of this, it had crossed my mind as well, so this is the reason for some of the questions I asked.

I know there are people who so use straw as bedding, but I would not recommend it, it has the tendency to hold moisture and mold likes to take root in it, a little too easy for my liking. I use tobacco twigs from Jedd's, here's a link for them:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-430/TOBACCO-STALKS-1.5kg-(Natural/Detail.bok

Never have seen a trace of mold ever in a nest from these twigs and as they mention in the link, they have properties that keep away insect pests, which is a bonus. Some people also use White Pine needles, the White Pine produces needles around 5" long and would have some of the same properties tobacco has, I would imagine, because of the residual pine resin in the needles. The top layer of clean dry ones, from under the tree would be the ones to use, and stick to White Pine, as other needles would be too short and may end up causing problems.

Being young, I think in a few more days the booties may just become more "normal" for him and 3 weeks most likely will not be an issue for him. Keep working on the Physio, as best you can, not only the effort and resistance part, but also, bit by bit each day, gently turning and holding his legs in a more normal alignments for short periods of time, releasing, and repeating this a number of times a day. No wrenching, just gentle pressure and it may take sometime to slowly get the leg(s) aligned in more normal way, by doing this, but it may help in the end with better overall positioning.

I would suggest if these guys, or any other of your birds, do produce young again with anything similar to this, that a flock treatment with Baytril may be in order, as it would no longer be a "one off" thing, but something more taking place and I personally would want to eliminate paratyphoid as a cause, by running this course of treatment while looking to other possible causes as well.

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*eating/drinking*

Well now the little guy is eating pretty much on his own, no more tube feed and drinking water. The only problem is his legs still are not straight. He was standing sort of on his first joint with legs crossed. I tried taping his feet to straighten without much luck. So what I have done is take a dowel rod with large ends on it, sort of like a big dog bone and taped his feet in place around the dowel. this keeps his legs separated and uncrossed and forces his feet into a more normal positiion. 

I can also use the dowel to pull down and exercise both legs in a straight direction. 

We'll see.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Do you have a picture of it?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dawitner, thanks for hanging in there for this little guy. What you are doing is not easy and it may be weeks, or even a number of months, before you may be able get things with his legs to were you want them to be for him. Yes, a photo of the new set up would be good to see.

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Picture*

Here is what the little guy looks like. As you can see my wife wants to make sure he has friends. 

I have actually been holding him up by the body and letting the weight of the dowel straighten his legs. It also helps to get his wings flapping some. I have some doubts about his ability to use his wings.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the pics. Pretty little thing. Is it hard to keep him upright? I mean, does he tend to fall over with his feet bound up? If so, maybe rolled towels positioned around him would help to keep him up. Also, if you could lower that whole thing into a deep dish or container, with towels around the top edge, and around his sides also, to pad him, you could maybe get some of the weight off of his legs. Straighten them out a bit.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the pics, and yes, a very nice looking bird. As Jay3 mentions, you may want to get him set up with some support, perhaps like in a donut towel like in the link: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6 , with seeds and water within easy beak reach. May not always have to be in it, but at night and at rest times, something like this may make things a little more comfortable for him.

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Fall over*

He does tend to want to fall forward so we use the little stuffed birds to keep him on an even keel. The nice thing about he dowel being off the ground is when he poops it falls away and he does not have to sit on it. 

We usually hold his food for him but if you prop it up to where he can reach it he has no trouble. He does tend to spill the water though. 

I still have some real concerns about his wings, he seems to flap one fairly well but hte other not at all.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

dawitner said:


> I still have some real concerns about his wings, he seems to flap one fairly well but hte other not at all.


Dawitner, seems it wouldn't hurt to do some physio on the wing as well, gently support and stretch out the wing, then release for him to bring it back, repeat.

Karyn


----------



## dawitner (Sep 7, 2010)

*Back*

Sorry I have not posted for awhile. The little pigeon is still around. He now lives on top of the dryer in a laundry basket. Despite my best attempts he still has curled feet and now just walks on them. He also appears to have one bad wing as it does not flap like the other. But other than those problems he is find. He clucks when we walk in and now feeds himself fine. I exercise him a couple times a day and we get along great. When it is sunny I put him out on the deck, with a cover so he can hide of course. My wife thinks I'm crazy but . . . . I'll post a picture when I get a chance.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Dawitner, thanks for the update. As I said before, thanks for hanging in there for him and all you have done. A few updated photos may be useful in letting us see just where things are at with him.

Karyn


----------

