# Tiger grizzle, can they produce white ybs?



## Revolution Lofts

Hello!

I recently received some white racing pigeons from a friend of mine. There's 18 of them that are pure white racing pigeons. There are also 4 birds that I'm guessing are tiger grizzles? (They have a white body and black spots. Some have less black than the others). I was wondering if you can mate tiger grizzles to some other color, in order to produce pure white off spring? 

I'll post pictures later on, just to show what I'm working with. Thanks!


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## MaryOfExeter

No, not tiger grizzle alone. If they do then they are probably white grizzles. Heterozygous white grizzles can look like tigers/mottles. Probably part of White Bandit family.


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## Revolution Lofts

Here are the birds:

This one has a black spot on its back:










This one has a black tail:










The one on the left also has a black spot on its back:











This one has the most black:


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## Revolution Lofts

An example of some of my whites I could mate these white/black spotted ones to:










What colored pigeons should I mate the white with black spot pigeons to in order to produce pure white babies? Or is it impossible?


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## pigeon is fun

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> Hello!
> 
> I recently received some white racing pigeons from a friend of mine. There's 18 of them that are pure white racing pigeons. There are also 4 birds that I'm guessing are tiger grizzles? (They have a white body and black spots. Some have less black than the others). I was wondering if you can mate tiger grizzles to some other color, in order to produce pure white off spring?
> 
> I'll post pictures later on, just to show what I'm working with. Thanks!


I know that this reply is nothing to do with your question but i just wanna say those birds you got are so nice and you said that you got them for free. Lucky! Are they ybs or breeders?


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## NZ Pigeon

They look like pieds to me. The whites you have could be made through pied or they could be recessive white and then have pied genes in the mix to. We can only guess if you will get more whites putting one of these pieds to a white but it is possible.


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## Revolution Lofts

Some of my whites are recessive white because I got them from another guy.

The whites I got from the fellow with these pieds might have been produced from mating pieds though.


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## NZ Pigeon

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> Some of my whites are recessive white because I got them from another guy.
> 
> The whites I got from the fellow with these pieds might have been produced from mating pieds though.


For sure, Or they could be pied birds that also carry recessive white.


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## Richi_Ric

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> Here are the birds:


The one with the black tail is termed as "KALDUMMA" and is seen as a breed of highflyers in India and Pakistan.


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## doveman2

i had a pair of blues that produced whites anything is possible


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## Richi_Ric

doveman2 said:


> i had a pair of blues that produced whites anything is possible


Talking about anything is possible, I have khakhi pair and what do you expect YBs to be? khakhi or Red but my YB is Jet Black whith spots of white on his face and wings.


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## doveman2

like i said anything is possible. good luck with the birds. i will always talk back


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## doveman2

oh! i've been trying to get a jet black bird for years just gave up. love then almost as much as my pure whites


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## Richi_Ric

doveman2 said:


> oh! i've been trying to get a jet black bird for years just gave up. love then almost as much as my pure whites


My Another Pure Black Indian Gola Pigeon:


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## rudolph.est

Richi_Ric said:


> Talking about anything is possible, I have khakhi pair and what do you expect YBs to be? khakhi or Red but my YB is Jet Black whith spots of white on his face and wings.


When you say you have a khaki pair what do you mean? Two khaki birds cannot produce blue (black) offspring.


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## Richi_Ric

rudolph.est said:


> When you say you have a khaki pair what do you mean? Two khaki birds cannot produce blue (black) offspring.


yes, I know they cant produce black chick but they did. If you want to see Their pictures I can upload.


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## rudolph.est

Richi_Ric said:


> yes, I know they cant produce black chick but they did. If you want to see Their pictures I can upload.


The pictures would probably help. Maybe your khaki's aren't really khaki ;-)


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## Richi_Ric

rudolph.est said:


> The pictures would probably help. Maybe your khaki's aren't really khaki ;-)


My Khaki Pair:


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## horseart4u

those look dilute red ( yellow ) to me.


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## Richi_Ric

horseart4u said:


> those look dilute red ( yellow ) to me.


are yellow and khaki different colors in Pigeons? somebody told me they are same


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## rudolph.est

Richi_Ric said:


> are yellow and khaki different colors in Pigeons? somebody told me they are same


These look like dilute recessive reds to me too This means that the cock is genetically blue, and at least one of them is also spread (probably), but this still does not explain how a spread blue could come from this pair...

Yes, khaki and yellow are different colors.

Khaki is dilute brown, the actual color is more dark brown beige color.

Yellow can be attained in two ways, but is always the result of dilute with red. Ash-red dilute is usually called ash-yellow, which distinguished it from dilute recessive red, often called recessive yellow or simply yellow.


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## Richi_Ric

rudolph.est said:


> These look like dilute recessive reds to me too This means that the cock is genetically blue, and at least one of them is also spread (probably), but this still does not explain how a spread blue could come from this pair...
> 
> Yes, khaki and yellow are different colors.
> 
> Khaki is dilute brown, the actual color is more dark brown beige color.
> 
> Yellow can be attained in two ways, but is always the result of dilute with red. Ash-red dilute is usually called ash-yellow, which distinguished it from dilute recessive red, often called recessive yellow or simply yellow.


Well Thanks for explaining me the difference now the pair I was told as Khaki is actually yellow. Okay. 

The chick I got from them is black, what I think is that the female mated with two males and the one who fertilized her egg is the other male with black color in his genes. I may be wrong. Please do correct me.


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## horseart4u

no you can get blacks from these two if the male is carring it. you could also get blue bars or checks possibly.


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## Richi_Ric

Oh! Okay. 

If want to have yellow chick then what should I do?


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## NZ Pigeon

horseart4u said:


> *no you can get blacks from these two if the male is carring it. you could also get blue bars or checks possibly*.


From two recessive yellows? Might wanna double check your books Donna, Two recessive red birds paired together will only produce recessive reds. These are also both Dilute so they will only produce dilute birds, 

Richi - to answer the question below, If these two are paired up and bred in a breeding cage you should ONLY get Yellows from them.



Richi_Ric said:


> Oh! Okay.
> 
> If want to have yellow chick then what should I do?


I thought these looked pale at first, I guess a dilute red with kite and dirty could darken it up to look pale.


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## horseart4u

but he claims they had a BLACK baby already, so doesn't that mean he can get blues & checks too, if recessive doesn't that mean they are hiding other colors?


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## horseart4u

i just read a part of the book it says recessive reds that are carring black mated to a recessive red will produce recessive red and what ever other color they are hiding. but like you said two dilutes will produce dilutes, so here is the question how did he get a black baby from these two??


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## NZ Pigeon

horseart4u said:


> but he claims they had a BLACK baby already, so doesn't that mean he can get blues & checks too, if recessive doesn't that mean they are hiding other colors?


I wonder if their is any possibility of another bird jumping the hen? Otherwise it is an unexplained phenomenom. Generally a bird that is black paired to another bird has the potential to breed blues and checks - yes, but not always, If both recessive red parents carry two doses of spread then all they will produce paired to a non recessive red bird is spreads. Yes you are right that some recessive genes have the ability to mask other colours, Recessive red and white hide atleast one base colour and pattern in all circumstances. They can potentially hide all sorts of other genes aswell.



horseart4u said:


> i just read a part of the book it says recessive reds that are carring black mated to a recessive red will produce recessive red and what ever other color they are hiding. but like you said two dilutes will produce dilutes, so here is the question how did he get a black baby from these two??


Two recessive reds should only produce recessive red as all their offspring have no option but to pick up two doses of the gene, What do you get when a bird has two doses of recessive red ( a recessive red ). Leaving out options such as recessive white and other genes at different locus's ofcourse.

I am not too sure how they got a black but your book that says "it says recessive reds that are carring black mated to a recessive red will produce recessive red and what ever other color they are hiding." is either wrong or you have misunderstood.

It could read *****it says recessive reds that are carring black mated to a het recessive red bird will produce recessive red and what ever other color/colours they are hiding.****


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## rudolph.est

Richi_Ric said:


> Well Thanks for explaining me the difference now the pair I was told as Khaki is actually yellow. Okay.
> 
> The chick I got from them is black, what I think is that the female mated with two males and the one who fertilized her egg is the other male with black color in his genes. I may be wrong. Please do correct me.


There is the answer. It is possible that the female mated with a blue.

There is definitely no way a RR pair could ever breed any youngsters that are not RR. It is just fact.

For a female that has proven to be unfaithful, I suggest closing the pair up in together in an individual breeding cage for at least 14 days before the eggs are laid, after that you can open them up. Some even say to throw out the first set of eggs, because they believe that the females might store some sperm (I don't agree with that, but thought people should make up their own minds).


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## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> There is the answer. It is possible that the female mated with a blue.
> 
> There is definitely no way a RR pair could ever breed any youngsters that are not RR. It is just fact.
> 
> For a female that has proven to be unfaithful, I suggest closing the pair up in together in an individual breeding cage for at least 14 days before the eggs are laid, after that you can open them up. Some even say to throw out the first set of eggs, because they believe that the females might store some sperm (I don't agree with that, but thought people should make up their own minds).


I also do not believe the females store the sperm, In animal species that can go months or even years without seeing a member of the opposite sex... Mainly seen in Turtles and other Reptiles, I believe it is possible that the females may store sperm but colony type animals such as pigeons have no need to develop such a trait.


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## Richi_Ric

Thank you everyone for all the info.


rudolph.est said:


> There is the answer. It is possible that the female mated with a blue.
> 
> There is definitely no way a RR pair could ever breed any youngsters that are not RR. It is just fact.
> 
> For a female that has proven to be unfaithful, I suggest closing the pair up in together in an individual breeding cage for at least 14 days before the eggs are laid, after that you can open them up. Some even say to throw out the first set of eggs, because they believe that the females might store some sperm (I don't agree with that, but thought people should make up their own minds).


Next time I'll follow your tip.


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