# Breeding half siblings



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Is the method of breeding half siblings good? Would the offsprings be considered inbred? I'm currently studying linebreeding versus inbreeding. Which method is better, and why? What are the pros and cons of inbreeding versus linebreeding?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for your interest and questions in regards to breeding. I'm going to move your thread to the appropriate forum, where it will get the response it deserves..


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> Is the method of breeding half siblings good? Would the offsprings be considered inbred? I'm currently studying linebreeding versus inbreeding. Which method is better, and why? What are the pros and cons of inbreeding versus linebreeding?


The issue of line breeding and inbreeding is very complicated, and the practice of both is very common to fancy pigeon breeders, including myself.

If these practices were not used, we would not have the tremendous variety of pigeon breeds that exist today. Most breeds likely got their start, when someone way back when, in some cases going back thousands of years, notice something strange in one his pigeons that he wanted to reproduce. 

I will use the fantail for an example: They noticed that a bird had a few more than the normal 12 tail feathers, so the next bird they found that had extras, they mated to the first one. Most likely this would be a father/daughter or mother/son mating....carrying this along for several generations, and with the occasional outcross of other individuals found that carried some of the same anomolies, which helped to provide a modicum of hybrid vigor, the fantail breed was born!

Possibly the only drawbacks I see from inbreeding are: 1. loss of reproductional vigor, usually occurring after about eight to ten generations without an outcross, and 2. The imprinting of inherant faults. Since the original purpose of inbreeding is to imprint, or SET desired traits, it also SETS faults as well.

Line breeding, on the other hand, uses occasional outcrosses to gain certain desirable traits, but keeps those traits that one is looking for in the first place, without some of the drawbacks found in inbreeding, but also introduces a few drawbacks as well.

The mating of half-sibs is a normal practice, and I use this method frequently.
In my line of fantails, all my birds are descended from an original three birds, and about every two generations I introduce an outside bird. 

Next year, I will be breeding from 16 pair, all of which share this closely related mix. Of the 32 birds, all are related to the original bloodline, and 24are also descended from a single bird I introduced three years ago. This year, I am introducing a couple birds from another loft that, if they do for me what I want, will be incorporated into my family. If not, all offspring of these will be discarded, and I will try something else.

That is line breeding.

Sorry for the big answer to your short question, but there isn't any short answes that I know of.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

risingstarfans said:


> The issue of line breeding and inbreeding is very complicated, and the practice of both is very common to fancy pigeon breeders, including myself.
> 
> If these practices were not used, we would not have the tremendous variety of pigeon breeds that exist today. Most breeds likely got their start, when someone way back when, in some cases going back thousands of years, notice something strange in one his pigeons that he wanted to reproduce.
> 
> ...


What line of fantails are you breeding down from. And are your fans, American or indian fantail. Also are you using any color out crossing to improve your color line. Or sticking to set colors.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I heard the difference between line and in-breeding put very well one time. Line breeding is to consentrate the genes of one certain pigeon or a pair. In-breeding is just close breeding and all line breeding is in-breeding but not all inbreeding is line breeding.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*This is a normal practice*

Virtually every animal on earth that is being bred for a specific purpose will be inbred to some degree or will be used in some kind of inbreeding in it's productive life.

Breeding half sibs is almost as good as an outcross as far as the mixing of genes is concerned. I don't know what you are trying to achieve but line breeding is the best way that I know of to fix (keep) something that you like. If you have a particular hen or cock that has all of the desirable traits that you are looking for, it is a very sound practice to breed them back to their sons or daughters and produce your own line or strain of birds from them. 

If the desired results are achieved from the first mating of son to mother or daughter to father, you need go no further. If it doesn't get you where you want to be, you can take the next generation offspring and breed them back to the original bird with no problem. You can theoretically do this forever and continue maintaining lines from cocks or hens that have all of the genes that you want. If things go sour, it might be best to do an outcross, which can simply be a bird from outside the line or outside of your genetic lines altogether.

Bill


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

what would you consider as a half sib? how about mating brother and sister but not nestmates?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Half sibs are just what it sounds like*

They have one parent in common. This is a pretty safe mating, genetically and will likely produce both favorable and unfavorable results. It is inbreeding but not to an extreme.

Breeding full brother to sister is inbreeding as close as it gets. It doesn't matter if they are nestmates or were born two years apart, they are still full brother and sister. This mating can bring out the best in a strain or the worst. In a good strong strain of birds that has been established over time as being a very sound strain, this mating can be used and has been used by many breeders. Personally, I prefer not to use it but have done so. It's a pretty sure way to find bad traits in a strain.

Line breeding is a safer method and is used in breeding race horses, dairy cattle, rodeo bulls, chickens, game birds, fish, you name it. It's a safe way of building your own strain of animals. You can build two lines from two birds and make your own strains. Keep breeding dad to daughters and mom to sons and you can build exactly what you want, provided, you began with the right two in the first place. If only one parent has the desired traits that you are looking for, use only that line. This is what you would have to do if you were mixing two breeds of pigeons to come up with a new color or trait. It's been done forever and is why we have so many breeds of pigeons and so much variety within the breeds.

Bill


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Siblings... thats inbreeding right?*

Or linebreeding? I found out few days ago that my Sion cock pair up with his grandaughter...I think thats something normal for them...I dont think there's an abnormality on the babies...Some say the breed stays pure when this happens, I think I will find out how the outcome next breeding season...


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*They are all forms of inbreeding*

If the birds are related in any way, it's inbreeding but that doensn't mean it's risky or bad for them. A grandfather to grandaughter mating would be a weak form of line breeding. Weak, in the sense, that it is not as close as father/daughter and other genes could have gotten in between the generations.

You breed fathers to daughters and mothers to sons when you have a bird that has all the genes and qualities that you want. This keeps them going and creates a line of breeding and genetics that can go on for a very long time, maybe indefinately. This is line breeding. It is inbreeding but is a good safe way to keep something good going.

Mating siblings is not as safe or sound as line breeding but every breeder has probably mated siblings together. Within a very strong line of birds, mating siblings is less risky as there should be no bad genes to draw from but repeated breeding of this type can create new flaws and sometimes new mutations, both good and bad.

Inbreeding has created such things as white pekin ducks from mallards. It starts with white wingtips and a widened neck ring on the drakes, eventually white neck rings on hens and enventually all white birds.

You can see the same thing in wild birds where they start to produce young with white feathers. I see sparrows and blackbirds like this all the time. I have a half white female cardinal in my yard. These are all probably due to inbreeding. Odd things begin to show up through inbreeding because of a mutated gene which would be lost if the birds did not continue to inbreed.

Bill


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