# Pyrantel Pamoate overdose?



## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

I think I have a worm problem, so I wanted to deworm my pigeons and I was trying to find a safer dewormer. The only dewormer specifically made for pigeons that I could find contains albendazole, but I understand that fenbendazole and its derivatives are dangerous for pigeons.

I read in this other thread about these pills called Mediworm that seem to contain 5 mg Praziquantel and 20 mg Pyrantel Pamoate and I was able to buy something similar that contains about 4 times those amounts, so I think I could use 1/4 of a pill per pigeon. The problem is that the pills I bought are for dogs and cats and I don't have a confirmed dosage for pigeons.

Furthermore, from other sources I read that Pyrantel Pamoate is given in a dose of 1-2 mg per pigeon, and I was wondering if that 20 mg isn't a typo and in fact it should read 2 mg?

Actually, I also read that Pyrantel Pamoate can be overdosed 20-40 times without harmful side effects, at least in cats, dogs and humans, but again I don't have a confirmation of that for pigeons.

So, in short,* is 5 mg Praziquantel + 20 mg Pyrantel Pamoate a safe dose for a pigeon*?


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## ETphonehome (Jan 3, 2012)

Unless your pigeons are suffering from a severe form of worm infestation and Pyrantel Pamoate would be the only thing you could afford or have at home to save their lives its hard to understand than with all great dewormers specially formulated for pigeons you want to use the one formulated for cats and dogs.

When it comes to medicines more is definitely not better, but the right one and particularly in the right dosis.

I should start making a test to see which dewormer is the best option and then give them the right dewormer and savest dosis.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Walter...look on line for Moxidectin Plus. It treats all worms in birds and it's easy to figure out a single dose per bird. 

Moxidectin Plus - This wormer has all of the benefits of Moxidectin along with the added ingredient of praziquantel for tapeworm control, making this the best all-round wormer for pigeons. Developed by Dr. Colin Walker, "The Flying Vet." (Australian Pigeon Company)


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

@Charis
I know, but I couldn't find Moxidectin plus and right now I can't afford to wait until it arrives here, if I order it online.

@ETphonehome
What I have seems to be the same thing as Mediworm, *that is specifically made for pigeons*, but I can't find that exact med here and I was asking if the information about Mediworm on the Internet is correct or if there is some kind of typo.

Even the exact drug I bought was recommended for use in pigeons too, by a vet who works at the very company that produces it, in an article on a pigeon fancier's site here, but he forgot to give the dosage for pigeons.

Believe me, this was the safest med I could find, I just need to clarify the dosage. I have no intention to poison my pigeons.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Walter...I think those instructions are for a 450 gram pigeon and so adjust your dose accordingly.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Charis said:


> Walter...I think those instructions are for a 450 gram pigeon and so adjust your dose accordingly.


Thank you  I do have one that is smaller in size, I was going to give him less than that anyway.

I was just afraid not to overdose all of them 10 times...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

jondove said:


> I think I have a worm problem, so I wanted to deworm my pigeons and I was trying to find a safer dewormer. The only dewormer specifically made for pigeons that I could find contains albendazole, but I understand that fenbendazole and its derivatives are dangerous for pigeons.
> 
> I read in this other thread about these pills called Mediworm that seem to contain 5 mg Praziquantel and 20 mg Pyrantel Pamoate and I was able to buy something similar that contains about 4 times those amounts, so I think I could use 1/4 of a pill per pigeon. The problem is that the pills I bought are for dogs and cats and I don't have a confirmed dosage for pigeons.
> 
> ...


I use straight Pyrantel Pamoate (50mg per ml strength) for my birds. The dose an avian vet figured out for me was 6mg per adult bird (.13ml) Or 1.50mls per gallon of water
I've never used Praziquentel.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Jondove,

Msfreebird (Waynette) uses Pyrantel Pamoate , at a dose of 6.5mg per pigeon, 3-4 times per year. (I kept a record because I have some here as a backup wormer for very sick birds).

I use a combination of moxidectin (my preferred wormer because it doesn't cause nausea) and a combo drug with Levimisole & praziquantel . Oddly, the Levimisole based wormer has proven more effective for round worms than the moxidectin for some reason, so I rotate these.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> I use straight Pyrantel Pamoate (50mg per ml strength) for my birds. The dose an avian vet figured out for me was 6mg per adult bird (.13ml) Or 1.50mls per gallon of water
> I've never used Praziquentel.



Honestly...not to be argumentative...the only problem with giving each adult pigeon that dose, is that the weight of adult pigeons can vary drastically. For example, I have an adult parlor roller at 180 grams. I also have an adult runt at 1000 grams. Now if the again vet gave you that dose for adult pigeons and you have all of the same kind, with approximately the same size, I would agree.
Many pigeon medications will say something to the effect...this dose is based on 450 gram pigeon.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Lol. you beat me Waynette!
Sorry to speak on your behalf, and thanks for the info


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

1000 grams is a huge pigeon, what beauty he must be.

Is there much safety margin with pyrantel? I though there was....but I agree with Charis that dosing by weight is very very important with wormers.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Honestly...not to be argumentative...the only problem with giving each adult pigeon that dose, is that the weight of adult pigeons can vary drastically. For example, I have an adult parlor roller at 180 grams. I also have an adult runt at 1000 grams. Now if the again vet gave you that dose for adult pigeons and you have all of the same kind, with approximately the same size, I would agree.
> Many pigeon medications will say something to the effect...this dose is based on 450 gram pigeon.


Most of my birds are between 300-450 grams, with the exception of Walter, which is about 1000 grams. When treated individually, they get .13ml (6.5mg)
I only treat individually if I know for a fact a bird has worms and is under the weather. I treat the whole loft 3-4 times a year in their water.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> 1000 grams is a huge pigeon, what beauty he must be.
> 
> Is there much safety margin with pyrantel? I though there was....but I agree with Charis that dosing by weight is very very important with wormers.


The avian vet that figured it out for me based it on an 'average weight' of an adult. I adjust it for smaller birds. I believe it has a nice safety margin. It's my 1st choice for birds that are not feeling well.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Like I said, I read it has a huge safety margin, probably that's why nobody bothers to give a very precise dosage based on weight. I am now sure that wasn't a typo, and those pills really have 20 mg Pyrantel Pamoate.

I also found this article by an avian vet who writes, among other things:



> Many a time I have been a hero when I have dewormed a bird during a second or third opinion, when it passes a pile of ascarids and shocks the owner after being repeatedly told by other vets that "the fecal was negative." Well, deworm it anyway, with something safe.* I routinely use pyrantel pamoate, since you can't hurt a bird with it, unless you aspirate it!* I have seen dosages ranging from 0.1 to 1.0 ml per kg of body weight. Don't use fenbendazole, as it can cause idiosyncratic liver problems or death.


http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/stuff.htmlhttp://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/stuff.html

If, like I understand from Waynette, the standard Pyrantel Pamoate solution is 50 mg/ml, then the maximum dosage of 1 ml/kg is actually 50 mg/kg, which for a 400 g pigeon will be exactly 20 mg.

A quarter of a pill in my case is 6 mg Praziquantel and 18 mg Pyrantel Pamoate. I now believe that's safe enough to give to an adult pigeon.

Thanks everybody for your replies.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Walter, it would be great if you could cut that dose in half. The Pyrantel Pamoate might be ok (in theory) on its own at the highest dose, but in combination with another wormer, its really pushing things IMO. I guess I just know how bad it feels to see a bird die from a wormer overdose so I hope that won't happen to you.

I know its easier to break a pill into quarters, but have you thought of making the pill into a suspension by crushing it & adding some syrup or liquid, so you can dose more conservatively? I find this method good for preventing regurgitation too. All you'd need to do is crush one pill, add it to 1ml of maple syrup or honey(or water if you have neither) and mix very well. Then give each bird 0.1ml (ie just one drop down the back of the throat). Its real easy, if you have an eye dropper or 1ml syringe handy. Anyway just a suggestion...


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks Bella!  I am a bit worried too, to say the least...

But, although I also thought about giving half of that, the Praziquantel dose would be too low, besides based on everything I read, I am now sure those Mediworm pills (designed especially for pigeons) actually have that content and the dosage for those is one pill per pigeon, repeat after 14 days.

I know how to dose meds with a syringe if needed, but in this case I could still cut that quarter of a pill further in two, the pills are big enough.
I will have to do that anyway for the smaller pigeons.

Still, if something goes wrong, how long would it take for any side efects to show up?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Walter,

I didn't mean to scare you. I had a vet overdose one of my pigeons with a wormer once, and the next day it was bleeding from its intestines (you could see bright blood it in its droppings), and the morning after that it passed away it was very fluffed up after the worming.

With the praziquantel, 2 mg should be more than enough. Thats what I use and I totally eradicated a bad tape worm infestation with 2 mg, when they were present. The bird weighed around 300 grams if that helps.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

jondove said:


> Like I said, I read it has a huge safety margin, probably that's why nobody bothers to give a very precise dosage based on weight. I am now sure that wasn't a typo, and those pills really have 20 mg Pyrantel Pamoate.
> 
> I also found this article by an avian vet who writes, among other things:
> 
> ...


And this is exactly why I use it. Your quote doesn't show the quote from the vet about the clump of worms, but I have seen that many times! I treat my loft 3-4 times a year, but in between times I will have 1 or 2 birds (usually young ones) that puff up and look sluggish and thin all of a sudden. I bring them inside and the 1st thing I do is give them .13ml of pyrantel and watch them. The next morning there is a clump of roundworms on their paper and their much perkier! I wait a couple days, then their ready to go back into the loft.
I can't find the article, but I once read that......"If is nearly impossible to clear a complete loft of birds of roundworm, therefore they should be wormed routinely to keep them in check". So this is what I do, and it has worked for me. I know many say..."don't treat unless worms are confirmed in a fecal", BUT, they don't ALWAYS show up on a fecal float.....so they could still have worms and people will give them antibiotics when its not necessary. When I bring in a 'light' bird and worm him, IF he doesn't pass worms in 24 hours, then I look for other causes.....but that has rarely happened, they usually pass worms, and that's the cause.
I use to use Ivermectin, but some of my birds had a severe reaction to it..... temporary paralysis.......which is one of the side affects of ivermectin (more common in some breeds than others....collies (dogs) are famous for it.) I don't know why it affected some of my birds, but I don't trust it anymore and found that pyrantel is much safer and just as effective.


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