# Pigeon with Canker not digesting seed after 3 weeks?



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I was just wondering if anyone knows how long I could expect to need to hand feed a pigeon with very bad canker, and also how long it could take before she will be able to digest seed again? 

I have been treating & hand feeding this young hen for 3 weeks now, and after 2 weeks on Metronidazole/aspirin/sulfa-antibiotics, she seemed a bit better so I allowed her to peck at some small seeds again. But this just made her sick again..she regurgitated some of them and the rest seemed to pass right through her. She got very fluffed up and ill, and seemed to stop pooping and I thought she might die. So I gave her lots of warm electrolyte water and a bit of olive oil with her food and she began to pass droppings again ok.

This was so scary, I am not sure how to go about getting her to eat seeds again. At the moment I am hand feeding her little chopped up bits of a type of puppy food `sausage' , made of 16% chicken protein, corn, barely, and other grains and some carrot.There are 2 calories per gram of this, so I am feeding her 25 grams of food, or 40-50 calories, per day split into 4 meals over the day. This produces around 30 droppings a day,and seems to be keeping her alive. She is much more alert now, but she is too weak to fly (she is improving in small increments daily though). She stands or sits on a heat pad all day and isn't walking around much (she is free in her sun room).

Could she possibly need more food? Is the 40 calories/30 droppings enough? Not sure when to try her on small seeds again?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

ok, I decided to see if she'd peck at little pellets, and see how that goes. She had a little nibble at them just before so I'll see how these go down.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

I am not sure but a bird should get better after a 3 week treatment, thats wierd.

Are you sure he has canker?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks so much for your concern, pijlover. This is a feral hen and she was in very bad shape when I took her in..starved very badly, huge canker lesions in her mouth , and she has been very close to dying many times. Its only this week that I have believed she might live because she is finally alert and starting to gain strength.

Apart from the canker & starvation, I'm not sure of what else might be wrong. I have given her one dose of moxidectin for worms, so far she's not passing any in her droppings. Her droppings have been ok for a bird this sick..no Diarrhea, just a lot of wetness at times. Its only when she has seed that her droppings get very bad.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Well, she must be in a severe condition when reached you. If she is looking good and her droppings are fine it means that she is getting better.

you have to wait for the seniors to respond but i guess she is out of the woods


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Pijlover said:


> I am not sure but a bird should get better after a 3 week treatment, thats wierd.
> 
> Are you sure he has canker?


Here's the thing with canker, though...there are strains which are becoming resistant to Metronidazole. So, if it IS canker, nowadays it is suggested you double-up on the "Zole" canker meds.

Actually I have had my wonderful old Avian Vets in SF tell me that Metro should really be considered a second-choice when dealing with canker these days...for the very reason that its not as effective as it once was.

I have had this happen before albeit in quicker time. I have dosed rescues with Metro and they start rebounding quickly, then about 4-5 days later have seen them nosedive and regress, quite dramatically. When I added the second "Zole", bang...they improved again, pretty rapidly too.

I usually go Metronidazole + Ronidazole (aka Ronsec or Ronisec)...or Metronidazole + Spartrix (Carnidazole).

If this doesn't work, I would continue with a full course of the second Zole and add/switch to another wide-net antibiotic such as Amoxycillin (aka Augmentin) or Baytril/Cipro, or even Ceclor, rather than the Tri-sulpha. 

In the meantime keep with the handfeeding and consistent warmth....she may have multiple maladies, indeed.... or it may just be a really nasty, resistant canker.

Bella...has she gained weight well ??? Do you have any Medacam (Meloxicam) ?

Also...have you had good results with your dogfood formula before ? For severely starved Pigeons, I usually go with peas alternating with wet Parrot Pellets, Conure sized.

Matter of fact, I usually stick with the Pellets when I begin to feed 'em seed again, but switch it to Budgie-sized. Maybe next time you try taking her off handfeeding....do a 40-60 mix of seed and Pellets.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Jaye,

Thanks so much for your help, everything you say makes sense as usual. I had the exact experience you described, where after 4 days she seemed like she was improving, then she nose dived and I thought she was going to die again. Then I started the hand feeding and anti-inflammatory, and she picked up again. And then the nose -dive happened again 2 weeks into treatment, when I tried to offer her seed. Its awful.

I do have some spartix, but she's been so `on death's edge' for so long, I have kept her on the mildest antibiotic and I haven't doubled up on canker meds yet. So I'll try her on half a spartrix tonight instead of the metronidazole. Maybe she can soon take a stronger antibiotic too. I have amoxicillin and cipro.

I don't have the metacam, but I am dosing her on 1 mg aspirin, per day, over two doses, and wow, it really made big difference to her, having an anti-inflammatory. This, more than anything, turned her around from fluffed up/dying to alert and improving. It was an almost immediate difference.

I've always had really good results with ronidazole, but I had to pay for an expensive vet visit to get my last batch and its gone now. So i only have the fishzole and spartrix now.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Bella,
If the anti-inflammatory produces results, you may not be looking at canker lesions at all.

You might want to try a course of Iboprofen a straight 2-3 mg dose, for five days. Doxycyline also moderates the inflammatory reaction in humans so it may be a worthwhile addition. There is a children's liquid Iboprofen available on the market which is sweet and birds like it. It is marketed at 100 mg/5mL or 20mg/mL. If you add teaspoon of water (5mL) to 5mL of Iboprofen you get 10mg/mL and with an eyedropper that measures out one mL you can read the 2-3 right off the barrel of the dropper.

Good luck!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot Grimlady, I have been meaning to look more into children's iboprofen. May I ask you, is there any reason to use it instead of aspirin? In humans, iboprofen can be very rough on the stomach for extended use, so I have been unsure about using it on birds.

I'm pretty sure the lesions I saw in the throat were canker, as they were typical yellow, large cheese-like growths that have cleared up with the canker meds. But these things often go hand in hand with multiple other problems don't they?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Not having a good dayr 

She threw up last night after half a spartrix, and she's been throwing up throughout the day and looking unwell. 

And on top of this my favourite wild scrub turkey who nests in my yard was paralysed this morning, and I think she was hit by a car. She is at the vet's right now, probably being put to sleep. Its such a crap day


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Here's the thing with canker, though...there are strains which are becoming resistant to Metronidazole. So, if it IS canker, nowadays it is suggested you double-up on the "Zole" canker meds.
> 
> Actually I have had my wonderful old Avian Vets in SF tell me that Metro should really be considered a second-choice when dealing with canker these days...for the very reason that its not as effective as it once was.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> Not having a good dayr
> 
> She threw up last night after half a spartrix, and she's been throwing up throughout the day and looking unwell.
> 
> And on top of this my favourite wild scrub turkey who nests in my yard was paralysed this morning, and I think she was hit by a car. She is at the vet's right now, probably being put to sleep. Its such a crap day


Yes, its seems a bad day for you but i remember you said that the feral is getting better!!

May be you are trying too many medicines on her, Hope the turkey will get better soon


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for your support Pijlover!

I am going to stop the aspirin, maybe that is harming her after all this time, I don't know. I just got chewed out by the vet who looked at my turkey, for using aspirin on her. It made me feel nervous. Its hard, i can't get metacam, and so far the aspirin has seemed good for my pigeon, but maybe its not?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

She's still alive this morning but she vomited again last night. A whole day of vomiting from just half a spartrix tablet- that's never happened to me before and I'm surprised by how badly it affected her.

But she's still passing droppings that are ok, and she's alert, not fluffed up and lethargic. 

Today I don't know what to do. She's been on meds for weeks, I'm think of giving her a day off them to see if this nausea will settle down & let her peck at her pellets as she needs, instead of force feeding her. It might be time to switch her antibiotic from sulfa-3 to something else tomorrow.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I just wanted to say she's looking great today after having a day off from medication and force-feeding . Her droppings are great and she's flying further & stronger. I'll give it a few days then try to reintroduce small seeds.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

*Regressing again *

Does anyone have any ideas? 

Its so wierd; yesterday she was better than ever with perfect droppings, and she passed a lot of them so to me it indicated she was eating well on her own. I didn't force feed her or give any meds. But today she is bad again. The only thing I changed from yesterday was to introduce some sunflower kernels along with her pellets after lunch time. And now her perfect droppings are a runny brown sludge, and very wet. Its such a dramatic change. I've removed the sunflower kernels. But if she's going to go back to her flock, she needs to be able to eat seed at some point, and its just not happening. Its been 4 weeks now.

Just as recap, she's had these meds over the course of the past month:

1 week Amoxicillin, changed to Sulfa-3 
Metronidazole for canker, tried spartrix (1/2) last week but it made her vomit for a day and a half
Nilstat daily
1mg Aspirin daily 

All meds have been stopped for two days.

Not sure if I should restart a new med regime or keep working on slowly introducing seed. I wonder why the sunflower seeds made her sick again. Or is she sick because the meds have been stopped?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Today she is steadily improving again, now that I've removed seed from her diet again. She's eating pellets only, and her droppings are becoming really good again. I'm back to square one! But I'm so grateful she's alive and perky.

Its as if her gizzard is still healing from whatever ailed her. Worms, lack of grit while on meds, canker nodules down there? I am not sure. These seem to be the more likely causes. She just can't process seed, but she can digest food that is broken down already like the processed dog sausage and the pellets.

I am thinking I'll give her a few days more on just the pellets and then worm her if she's looking strong. The canker lesions are all gone from her throat so I expect the metronidazole did its job.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Bella_F said:


> Does anyone have any ideas?
> 
> Its so wierd; yesterday she was better than ever with perfect droppings, and she passed a lot of them so to me it indicated she was eating well on her own. I didn't force feed her or give any meds. But today she is bad again. The only thing I changed from yesterday was to introduce some sunflower kernels along with her pellets after lunch time. And now her perfect droppings are a runny brown sludge, and very wet. Its such a dramatic change. I've removed the sunflower kernels. But if she's going to go back to her flock, she needs to be able to eat seed at some point, and its just not happening. Its been 4 weeks now.
> 
> ...


 *Hi BELLA, STOP the aspirin you are punping this bird with all kinds of medsYou are killing the friendly bacteria be sure that you mix the probiotic with distilled water as regular tap water will kill the the proboitic. put her on probiotic for two days make sure that she has a small amont of grit daily, *GEORGE


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hmmm..I would agree to stop the aspirin entirely. 

I am a bit unclear...did you say you did Amoxy for a week then switched to Tri-Sulpha after a week of Amoxy ? Or that...combined...you did a week's total of Amoxy and Tri (i.e. 4 days of Amoxy, 3 days of Tri, or whatever).

If she handled the Metro well but not the Spartrix, you could try Ronidazole instead (Ronsec). 

If you have only done 7 days total of all antibiotics, then I do not think that's enough of a course.

If you feel that the Amoxy was ineffective and the Tri is also...Doxycycline might not be a bad call. It has applications for gut and renal infections, and this seems to be something in that n'hood.

Curious as to why you also went with an antifungal ? I might be inclined to stop that as well...

I understand why you stopped everything...hell, why not ? It has been such a rollercoaster. I think we may deduce that something in the regimen, or maybe two things, have been causing your pal to feel horrible. You now stopped 4 things...I think it wouldn't be a terrible idea to start reintroducing 'em again, one at a time...but leave out the aspirin and antifungal. Unless I am missing something regarding the antifungal.

George's alternative is also not without its merits. You could just not go with any more meds and start introducing probiotics and see if she remains stable or starts declining again....


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi George and Jaye,

I sure appreciate your input. Thank you!

Regarding her meds in general, she's had a whole month on them in total now. This is her 5th week in my care, and the first where she's totally off meds. She still can't digest seed. 

As a recap, she had really huge yellow lesions in her throat when I found her. She was blade thin, fluffed up, extremely weak..not flying, and stumbling if she walked etc.

I first put her on amoxicillin/metronidazole/nilstat. I swapped her antibiotic to Sulfa drugs because they are tad broader spectrum and milder than Amoxicillin & baytril. She didn't look like she could take too much.

Jaye, the antifungal Nilstat was used because its safe to my knowledge (ie its not absorbed into the system at all ) and also because canker sometimes goes hand in hand with candida but the look of it down the throat can seem like its only canker. If you only treat the canker, which I did once this year, the candida can kill the bird, especially when you start using the antibiotics. So I use Nilstat as a precaution now. 

After 4 days, the bird was still alive but very fluffed up and weak & not eating any more so I started to force feed.

On Day 5, she was still alive, passing decent droppings because of the force feeding, but still fluffed up. I started aspirin as an anti-inflammatory then, dosage according the Avian Medicine formulary here:

http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/18.pdf

After she had the aspirin included in her med regime, she perked right up for the first time. So I continued this treatment. She gradually improved in strength and activity for the next few weeks. The lesions in her throat went away too. She was having Sulfa-antibiotics, metronidazole, nilstat and aspirin. Plus the force feeding.

She is off her meds now, and my main issue now is getting her back to eating on her own. She seems to get very sick or vomit if I give her any kinds of seeds. But she can take pellets or dog food.

So thats where she's at right now. I'm thinking she probably needs to be wormed but she also needs to get over this last bout of sickness from giving her seed. Its frustrating!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

george simon said:


> *Hi BELLA, STOP the aspirin you are punping this bird with all kinds of medsYou are killing the friendly bacteria be sure that you mix the probiotic with distilled water as regular tap water will kill the the proboitic. put her on probiotic for two days make sure that she has a small amont of grit daily, *GEORGE


George, Thank you for the advice about the grit and the probiotics. That makes good sense to me. I have grit for her, but I only have acidopholis yogurt as a probiotic. Not sure if its any good though?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

In a pinch that is OK, I believe.

It's worth giving George's idea a try. I would be extra-vigilant, however for any sorta backlash from the cessation of drugs.

Dunno what else to say...that was a big cocktail of meds for a weak Pigeon.....so if symptoms return, might be worth a vet visit.

BTW...it's my understanding that Cipro is actually a wider-based antibiotic than the sulpha drugs...which is why the sulpha drugs have been sorta eclipsed in the avian vet world by Baytril and Clavamox. Given the choice between Amoxy and sulpha, I can see why you went with sulpha (assuming the Amoxy wasn't Clavamox, but just straight Amoxy). I know on this Forum sulpha has sorta become 'en vogue' again, but I don't believe it's actually as wide-net or effective as Cipro, nor anywhere near as prescribed in avian vet circles.

This is all an aside, because if the issue is digestive problems, and they persist and are not alleviated by George's good plan...then likely a different med will be req'd.

Let's hope not. Keep it up !


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks again Jaye, I really appreciate your support.

Ok, I have her on a proper probiotic for birds called protexin, and I'll give her two days on this.

My goal after that is to worm her, in case she had gizzard worms causing her digestion issues.

PS. I should add that she looks better today.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Cool...wishing y'all the best recovery !


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jaye said:


> In a pinch that is OK, I believe.
> 
> BTW...it's my understanding that Cipro is actually a wider-based antibiotic than the sulpha drugs...which is why the sulpha drugs have been sorta eclipsed in the avian vet world by Baytril and Clavamox. Given the choice between Amoxy and sulpha, I can see why you went with sulpha (assuming the Amoxy wasn't Clavamox, but just straight Amoxy). I know on this Forum sulpha has sorta become 'en vogue' again, but I don't believe it's actually as wide-net or effective as Cipro, nor anywhere near as prescribed in avian vet circles.


Dear Jaye,

Regarding Sulfas versus Cipro/Baytril and Amoxicillin, the main reason I say that Sulfa is `broader Spectrum' is that Sulfas act against Coccidia, whereas the Cipro and Amoxicillin don't. 

In the past, I've tried using Cipro with amprolium to cover treatment for coccidia, but amprolium is a very harsh drug. A weak bird will often regurgitate the combination of amprolium and antibiotics, or it can be enough to weaken the bird and kill it. I wish I didn't know that from first hand experience

I can definitely see why an Avian vet would prescribe Baytril over sulfas though. The Vet would have the facilities to know for sure whether Coccidia is there or not. Whereas if you're treating birds at home without those tests, you need to treat fora range of the most likely illnesses as safely as possible. Vets don't have to do that usually.

I might be wrong, but I think this is why Dobato gets more inexperienced members like me onto the Sulfas...for the action against coccidia without adding those harsh drugs like amprolium or Baycox.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Just as an update, she has had the course of probiotics and I've started her on moxidectin wormer. The probiotics didn't change her droppings like I hoped, but her condition remained steady . 

After receiving the wormer, she seems to have gained strength and is very interested in flying today, which is a very nice change. On the weekend I'd like to try re-introducing small seeds again and see if she can digest them this time.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

*Passing Tape worms*

Just as update, I have started her on seed again, which is going better than the last time, but today she started passing adult tapeworms as well as seeds in her droppings. Tape worms!

The Moxidectin wouldn't have killed these, so I am going to have to worm her again. I have a praziquantel / levimisole combo wormer for her so fingers crossed.

She is good overall, but still weaker than I would have expected. Hopefully this is the final problem she is suffering. Poor little thing, its been rough on her!


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Gosh you have put so much effort in to helping this poorly pigeon. I do hope the outcome is good and that there is a future for this pigeon. You have certainly tried your best that is for sure. 

Unfortuantly my last canker pigeon died. Over the years I have had to increase the amount of medications I adminster and now combine Flagyl with Spartrix. Im not sure if Ronidazole is availble here in the UK. Also I give Bayrtil.

I dont quite understand what a Tri-Sulpha Antibiotic is or how it works. Also I have Nystatin for yeast infections but never know when that would be useful. I dont think Ive had a pigeon with a yeast infection but how could I be sure if it's internal?

Also how do you work out 1mg of Asprin? The tablets come in 300 mg here (for humans)

I was also wondering how long can you safetly give Flagyl (Metronidazole) for? I usually give for ten days. Also what dosage for a 340gram pigeon twice a day? The Flagyl I have says each 5ml contains the equivalent of 200 mg metronidazole.

Also what dosage to give if I can obtain Ronidazole ? 

Hope you dont mind my asking. 

Jayne


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh wow, this praziquantel/levimisole combo wormer worked fast! Not only is she passing tape worms, but she is passing masses of very long round worms in thick ropes, many inches long. This is very bad. She could easily become blocked up die from the worms jamming up her systemThe moxidectin wormer I gave the other day seems to have not worked, or only worked partially.


I'm going to leave her be until night time, and depending on how many worms she's passing still I might start her on amoxicillin and possibly aspirin again. From past experience, they can start to pass the worms and look good for a day, but then the blockages & internal bleeding starts up and they can die. Fingers crossed, I am hoping that somehow the moxidectin cleared some of the smaller worms, and that what I'm seeing now is the very large ` leftover worms'.


PS. Dear Jayne,

I can totally relate to how awful it is to lose the battle with bad canker, and I'm sorry that such a sad thing happened to you.

You're right, its been really hard work caring for this one, with the slow response to medicine, and needing to hand feed it etc. I can see now that the other problem was the massive infestation of worms, which is why the aspirin probably helped her along. Worms can totally inflame things inside. She's had 6 weeks to build up her strength and I can only pray that her system has the strength to expel these worms without blocking up.

Regarding the Aspirin, the dosage is 4 mg of aspirin, per kilogram of bird weight. My bird is 240 grams so I gave it 1 mg aspirin per day, and I didn't see any adverse effects.

Although Metacam is the correct anti-inflammatory to use , this dosage for aspirin is from the Avian medical formulary, so it has been tested on birds.

To administer the aspirin, I crushed a 300mg pill up very finely, added it to 30mls of water, mixed extremely well, and then dosed 0.1 ml (ie 1/300th of an aspirin pill) with a 1ml syringe. You could also add the crushed up pill to 300mls of water, shake/mix thoroughly, and dose 1 ml of that solution. 

Regarding your other questions, I use the Nystatin because I lost a bird this year that I was treating for canker, and I think it was due to a massive yeast co-infection that looked like canker. So I figure that nystatin is so safe, that I may as well use it now if I'm not sure if the bird has yeast, or if I'm using amoxicillin or Baytril.

Hope some of that helps!


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hello thanks for your reply.

You say you give Nystatin when you give Baytril. Why is that? Is it something to do with preventing sour crop/crop stasis?

Also still wondering when one would use a Tri Sulphur antibiotic.What is the difference between a Tri Sulphur and Baytril or Synulox for instance?

I am also curious to know how long you treated with Metronidazole and the dosage you needed to give to get a result?

What if the canker nodules don't go away? Have you had to have the pigeon operated on by a vet to remove a nodule or do you know anyone that had to do this?

Just wondering as I have no one to discuss these issues with. 

Jayne


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PigeonQueen said:


> Hello thanks for your reply.
> 
> You say you give Nystatin when you give Baytril. Why is that? Is it something to do with preventing sour crop/crop stasis?


Yes, Jayne, partially. Its mostly to prevent & treat thrush/candida anywhere in the digestive system, but especially the crop. Candida can kill a sick bird & get way out of control when the bird is taking a strong antibiotic. I've seen it happen without understanding what was happening or what to do, & its horrible, as you can imagine. I really never want to see a bird go through that again, so I always use the Nilstat now.



> Also still wondering when one would use a Tri Sulphur antibiotic.What is the difference between a Tri Sulphur and Baytril or Synulox for instance?


These are all good drugs with some cross-over in what they treat, but they each tend to be slightly more effective for different ailments. 

Tri sulfa's seem mild on sick pigeons to me, & have the advantage of acting against coccidia parasites as well as a wide range of bacteria that cause gastro-enteritis, clamydia, and respiratory illness. Therefore its a good starting point when you have an undiagnosed illness.

Synulox, which I believe is amoxicillin, is a penicillin which is great for soft tissue infections, say the lungs, organ infections, infection of the intestinal walls etc. It cures the pigeon illness strepacoccal, which Baytril doesn't. In humans, penicillins are a go-to antibiotic for infections like Kidney infections, urinary tract infections, and also respiratory infections. It is also a good anti-inflammatory.

Baytril is a powerful antibiotic like penicillin, but it seems to be more of the go-to drug for wounds and salmonella/ecoli Enteritis type infections. I don't have a lot of experience with it, actually, as I don't have much so I save it for bad wounds.


I should also mention Doxycycline, which is the most commonly use antibiotic from the tetracycline family. The tetracyclines would be a first choice for air-sac and respiratory infections, and some types of ecoli, and they are especially effective against streppacoccal. If the other antibiotics aren't working, especially baytril, doxycycline is a good drug to try next because it kills completely different bacteria.



> I am also curious to know how long you treated with Metronidazole and the dosage you needed to give to get a result?


I treated with the metronidazole for over 14 days this time because the yellow growths were so huge. For my pigeon's weight, I used 10mg morning and night. Visible canker growths tend to shrink quickly when the right medicine is used. I kept the treatment going because the bird was so sick and vomiting, and because I wasn't sure how much canker was inside.



> What if the canker nodules don't go away? Have you had to have the pigeon operated on by a vet to remove a nodule or do you know anyone that had to do this?


Hmm, I haven't seen it that non-responsive before, but have you? That would be a real worry, for sure. I believe that you're not supposed to try to remove the nodules because they cause too much bleeding. The best idea is to try metronidazole, then spartrix, then ronidazole. You can also try much higher doses (say 4 X) of metronidazole or ronidazole, which is sometimes the only way to get rid of the canker.





> Just wondering as I have no one to discuss these issues with.



Dear Jayne, Do you have someone with canker there now that you're worried about? or are you worried that you might have a resistant canker at your place?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I believe that Cipro/Baytril is more effective against aerobic infections, and Amoxycillin/Clavamox/Augmentin is more effective against anaerobes. If I recall my avian vet correctly.....

It is therefore not uncommon that, when playing a guessing game with an infection, people will switch from one to the other if the initial decision seems to be yielding little improvement.

I, too...have never heard of a canker infection which could survive a doubling-up of two of the three canker meds: Metronidazole/Flagyl, Spartrix, Ronidazole/Ronsec.

If you administer 2 of 3 simultaneously....I cannot imagine a canker infection (which isn't so far along as the passing of the Pigeon is inevitable) can actually resist such a treatment. If so....that'd be scary.....


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jaye, Does aerobic mean wounds, and Anaerobic mean internal, generally speaking?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well...yeah, that's a way you can put it, actually. Open to air as opposed to not...Really, aerobic bacteria require oxygen to survive, while anaerobes do not. So, yes, most external wounds would be open to air and therefore prone to aerobic bacteria which could enter from there. Anaerobic infections...say like a bone infection as a result of a break or fracture where there is not puncture or external lesion...or maybe a soft tissue infection...or some sort of organ or gut infection...(e. coli is an anaerobe)....is not open to the air. Therefore, anaerobic bacteria would be the culprit in these instances

This is over-simplifying a bit, but basically sumthin' along those lines.


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hello thanks for your very interesting replies- much appreciated.

I need to make sure I understand exactly what you are saying with regard to giving higher doses of Metronidazole or Ronidazole ( I have been told Ronidazole is not available her in the UK. Also that it it is more effective then Metronidazole.)

You said you give your pigeon 10mg Metronidazole twice daily (For average size Feral PIgeon of about 340grams?) but it is okay to give four times that amount if canker is bad , so that would be 40mg, twice daily? Is that what you are saying?

Im trying to work out how much Metronidazole I can give to get the best result when the Canker is so bad I cant tube feed the pigeon.

You say you dont remove the nodules?I try not to but when I cant get the tube down the throat of the pigeon to feed, I figure it's going to die anyway so use pair of tweezers and remove pieces of the nodule leaving just the bit which is still attached to the flesh inside the pigeons mouth. Once I can get the tube down to feed I try to leave the nodules alone.I use cotton buds and put a little Metronidazole on the tip and wipe over the nodules.

I have some Nystatin oral suspension ready mixed 100,000 units/ml. (Written exactly like this) How much should I give for average size pigeon 340 grams?

The canker pigeon that died also had a bloated crop like it was filled with water. I thought pigeon had Adenovirus but now I'm thinking sour crop and possible yeast infection. I did not give the Nystatin as I was unsure of how to use it and now wonder whether the pigeon would have survived if I had given the Nystsatin.?

Also I wonder at what point does one give medication for worms and what kind of worms .How do you know if the pigeon has tapeworm?
You did not suspect Tapeworm until it was very bad? I rarely worm my pigeons as they come to me when ill. Should I worm as a matter of precaution every pigeon for tape and roundworm? I worry about giving too much different medications.

I find that it is best to tube feed the pigeons with canker for the first week or ten days as even small seeds can get trapped in the throat and can kill it.

The reason I asked if you had heard of anyone having canker nodules removed surgically is because I read Colin Walkers Book 'The flying Vets pigeon Health and Management'. In it there are graphic pictures of operations to remove canker nodules. He is an Australian Vet I believe. I dont know if any vets in the UK have done this procedure and wondered why 
the medication hadn't worked. Colin Walker says give 0.5ml of Metronidazole once daily in his book ( Each 5ml contains 200mg). That would not work for me perhaps because the canker has become more resistant since the book was written perhaps?

I have Metronidazole liquid which says each 5ml contains the equivalent of 200mg metronidazole. You say its okay to give 10mg twice daily of Metronidazole.So how much would this be in the liquid formula I have?

Thanks again for your input. It's always useful to share knowledge as you can learn more and recognise mistakes and hopefully get a better result next time around (and save another pigeon!!)

Jayne


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

If the canker is so bad that you cannot handfeed or tube feed, rather than push the issue... it is probably better to just syringe feed (deposit the formula in the front of the mouth). I have successfully fed Pigeons with bad canker for a few days in this manner as the '-zoles' kick in.

Really, removing nodules is just very, very risky...and if nothing bad has happened as a result yet, then I think you should count your lucky stars.

If Ronidazole isn't available in UK...how about Spartrix ?

http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Pigeon-Pharmacy/departments/17/

Using your liquid Metronidazole...if 5ml (5cc) contains 200mg, then 1ml (cc) contains 40 mg. So if a typical daily dose would be 20mg...which is a nice, robust dosage...then that'd be 2 doses of .5ml (cc) spaced 8 hrs. apart.

Indeedy, the '-zoles' are very forgiving in the dosage dept....they tend to not cause ill effects if they are dosed heavily. I think going to 25 or 30mg total for the day would be pretty safe and may well start ridding a Pigeon with a very bad case quite quickly.I still feel that doubling up with a second med (Spartrix) is really the way to go.


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hello and thanks for your advice.

As I said in a previous post I am already giving Spartrix with the Metronidazole but wanted to try the Ronidazole as my vet said it was more effective than the Metronidazole. Unfortantly it is not available here in the UK.

Now I have a better idea how much Metronidazole I can give, this information will be invaluable when considering how much to adminster to a bad case of canker.

I have not yet had a problem with removing bits off the nodules but have never actually completely removed one because of possible excessive bleeding.I have to weigh up how much I can do to help the pigeon survive.I use plastic tweezers which are better than metal ones for removing the bits.

I will definitley try to syringe feed from the front of the mouth and see how this works but I do think cleaning the mouth of loose canker bits several times a day in the beginning really does help.However I will bear in mind what you have said.

Do you think it is okay to clean the mouth with an iodine solution or use a diluted Hydrogen peroxide? I ask because I just use a cotton bud dipped in Metronidazole at the moment?

Jayne


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Jayne,

Regarding the `bigger' dose of metronidazole, as I understand it this dose is a once-only dose of 200mg per kilo of bird ie about 60 mg for a bird that weighs 350 grams. 

Both metronidazole and ronidazole seem to have a wide safety margin, but I have no idea what that margin is exactly from any personal experience. I tend to dose conservatively for longer, and that has worked ok so far.




> I will definitley try to syringe feed from the front of the mouth and see how this works but I do think cleaning the mouth of loose canker bits several times a day in the beginning really does help.However I will bear in mind what you have said.
> 
> Do you think it is okay to clean the mouth with an iodine solution or use a diluted Hydrogen peroxide? I ask because I just use a cotton bud dipped in Metronidazole at the moment?


Hi Jayne, 

I must admit I've never had to directly interfere with canker nodules, as the medication has always worked for me. I have read of some serious risks personally with the use of iodine and hydrogen peroxide on pigeon wounds, so I think that what you're doing now, with dabbing the metronidazole onto the nodules, sounds like the right thing to do. I've heard of this being done with a sterilised feather as well.

One other thing that came to mind after reading about how the canker nodules are `coming off' when you wipe them is that yeast can look a lot like canker, but the main difference is the yeast will wipe off whereas canker doesn't. I wonder if the canker that seems to come off easily is actually yeast sometimes?


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hello thanks for your reply.

Hmm I know what you are saying and will be aware of the yeast thing next time around, but no, the canker nodules are often huge and I pick off bits with plastic tweezers making sure not to pull it actually away from the skin.

How much nystatin should I give please and for how long?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PigeonQueen said:


> How much nystatin should I give please and for how long?


Dear Jayne, You can give about 0.1-0.2ml twice a day, though I've given 0.5ml once day and it seemed to be ok . If there is a fungal infection there in the crop, they say to treat it for 10 days. 

It sounds like you know what canker looks like though, i didn't mean to coem across as doubting you. The only reason I mentioned yeast is that I keep reading about how canker can look like yeast, and also like pox. You can sometimes tell the difference between canker and, say, pox & yeast because of its location in the mouth- canker is usually way back in the throat, whereas pox and yeast will be just inside the mouth, also, the yeast will wipe off easily.

In my feral flock, I've seen all of these illnesses in sick rescues after the breeding season; the pox I think looks the most like canker because of the yellowish growths it can form. Ah, pox! I hate that disease- its so awful.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Hey guys! Long time no writing from me  Its good to see you are keeping up the good fight Bella, and still rescuing lots of pigeons. 

I have found this thread to be very interesting - not least off all because the dosages I have given my birds when needed way exceed those listed for you guys for metronidazole and nystatin. And these were dosages recommended by dr Colin walker! 

The dosages were 1/4 tablet, or 100 mg/kg of metronidazole daily. No divided dose. 

And 1 ml bd. of nystatin. I really agree with this dosage as given it only works by contact I don't think it can work in smaller dosages. Nilstat if given in too low a dose can actually exacerbate yeast issues. 

I just wanted to share my dosages and experiences - particularly as this sounds like a really ill bird which needs optimal dosing. And secondary, in case I'm wrong? 

Also, I know aspirin is an anti platelet aggregator so it is good you stopped it before worming as it can cause clotting problems
S (increased risk of ongoing, protracted bleeding) so good you stopped that with the bird being at risk of bleeding more with the worming

Anyway best of luck Bella, I find it heartening that you are still out there looking out for the birds, 

Bong bong sends you a peck

Suz


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I meant 0.5 - 1 ml bd of nilstat


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

PigeonQueen said:


> Hello thanks for your reply.
> 
> *You say you give Nystatin when you give Baytril. Why is that? Is it something to do with preventing sour crop/crop stasis?*
> 
> ...



An antibiotic kills bacteria, both good and bad. When you kill off the good bacteria (which keeps yeast under control), yeast can take over, just like in humans. The Nystatin keeps the yeast under control. After the antibiotics, give the bird probiotics for a few days to help to build up good gut flora again.

When you clear up the canker, the nodules will go away. If they are still there, that is an indication that the bird still has canker.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Actually, the dosage of Metronidazole for an adult pigeon would be about 50 mg. With the weight of this bird, probably 40 mg daily, given once a day. If you use too low a dose, over a longer period of time, you can be helping to build an immunity to the med.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey kamz, I was wondering where you got to! Its nice to see you again.




kamz said:


> I have found this thread to be very interesting - not least off all because the dosages I have given my birds when needed way exceed those listed for you guys for metronidazole and nystatin. And these were dosages recommended by dr Colin walker!
> 
> The dosages were 1/4 tablet, or 100 mg/kg of metronidazole daily. No divided dose.


Regarding the metronidazole, the dosages that are often discussed here by, say John D, Pidgey, and Karyn, come from Avian medicine books. But as you can see from this thread below, even in the Avian medicine books, the recommendations vary from 20mg -250mg per kilogram body weight per day:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/help-with-dosage-please-56563.html

John says that his Vet book quotes the dosages as: 



> The British Small Animal Veterinary Association formulary quotes (for birds) three different ones:
> 
> 40-50 mg/kg orally every 24 hours for 5 to 7 days
> 
> ...






> And 1 ml bd. of nystatin. I really agree with this dosage as given it only works by contact I don't think it can work in smaller dosages. Nilstat if given in too low a dose can actually exacerbate yeast issues.



Dear Kamz, how does the lower dosage exacerbate the yeast? I used to dose at 0.5 ml per day, but Karyn (Dobato) told me to roll that back to only 0.1 ml
Not sure why though- the bird was very weak, perhaps that why?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

kamz said:


> Hey guys! Long time no writing from me  Its good to see you are keeping up the good fight Bella, and still rescuing lots of pigeons.
> 
> 
> Anyway best of luck Bella, I find it heartening that you are still out there looking out for the birds,
> ...


Dear Suz,

I just wanted to thank you heaps for your encouragement , it means a lot.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS..

I had a look in the book` Avian medicine, principles and application', for the dose of Nystatin.

It definitely says 1ml (100,000 I.U. per ml Nystatin) per 400 gram pigeon per day. So for a very ill pigeon at 200 grams, 0.5 ml of Nilstat per day would be right, Just as Kamz said.

http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/35.pdf


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