# Need help with Sick Bird



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Haven't had a sick bird in awhile, so I guess I'm a little brain dead. 
She was just standing on the loft floor letting all the cocks breed her not trying to get away. Picked her up with no struggle.
Feels a little thin, soft poop stuck to her.
Brought her in and put on heating pad - just stood there.
Wormed her with strongid (pyrantel) - first thing I always do.
Fed her a little water w/salt and sugar. Not interested in her seed. Haven't force fed her yet.
The wet outer edges of her poop seem to be blood tinged (?) poop is brown *see picture
She got up on her log and is just standing.
Not sure where to start here - suggestions needed.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Msfreebird,

I am sure your brain will kick in shortly.

I think you have done what you should be doing so far. She is a pretty bird by the way.

When I have one like this with sickness of unknown cause I usually do pull the seeds from their hospital cage for the first while until I figure out what is going on. 

How does her crop feel, flat and empty or are there contents? How does her breath smell, throat look? Can she fly at all? How is her breathing? Can you get some basic tests done such as a fecal float and gram stain done for her? I know you have been on the forum a while, but I am not sure of what everyone is comfortable with doing, do you know how to tube feed? What have her droppings been looking like since the last photo and how often is she doing them?

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Msfreebird,
> 
> I am sure your brain will kick in shortly.
> 
> ...


Hi Karyn,
I don't want to start antibiotics until I'm sure what's going on.
Since 1st post, she's had 1 poop which is now brown liquid. 
Still has not eaten on her own. Crop feels empty.
Breath, mouth and throat are fine. Not canker.
Breathing is fine. She is just sitting and standing. Alert.
I know how to tube feed and have everything I need. I just wanted to observe her for awhile 1st.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Waynette...how long since she laid eggs?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

My guess would be Coccidiosis Msfreebird,better start her on meds,(aureo/sulmet) is what I would recommend. Better flock treat being the males were mating with her or it will be spreading.That is my opinion but you might want to wait for someone elses opinion whom you have more trust in.
Kurps


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Waynette...how long since she laid eggs?


Not sure, I have so many sitting on fake eggs and switching daily!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

M Kurps said:


> My guess would be Coccidiosis Msfreebird,better start her on meds,(aureo/sulmet) is what I would recommend. Better flock treat being the males were mating with her or it will be spreading.That is my opinion but you might want to wait for someone elses opinion whom you have more trust in.
> Kurps


Thanks. My 1st thought is coccidia. I have and usually use Albon for that.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Coccidiosis is usually a secondary infection to something else going on. 

Is she currently laying on fake eggs or ready to lay?

It is possible she may have some kind of egg related issue, that is one thing to keep in mind as it can be very serious and with dryer weather it can be a challenge for some hens who are laying.

I wouldn't hesitate to consider it.

Make sure to hand feed her, keep her on heat,if you suspect an egg issue give her a drop of olive oil daily, calcium supplement, and even allow her access to warm moist room-like bathroom after a shower. 

If she doesn't get better take her to an avian vet.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

While you are deciding what course of treatment to take I would try and get some immediate energy into your little one. Looking at the small amount of solids that are in her dropping it may have been a while since she since she last ate properly so may be down on energy. Once you feel she is well hydrated with Pedilyte or hydration fluid, I would tube her 8cc of a simple sugar water mix, as simple sugars do not have to be digested by our birds and are absorbed right through their bowel wall for an instant energy boost. The sugar solution although a liquid will act as a food, that's why I mentioned to rehydrate her first with an isotonic solution. The fluids will help to flush her out as well.

Karyn


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I would use Appertex (Cocci) and Spartrix (Tricho) in one day, if you have as it works faster and it is safer. As Dobato mentioned fluids, but I preffer honey or glucose instead sugar to boost her energy levels.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

plamenh said:


> I would use Appertex (Cocci) and Spartrix (Tricho) in one day, if you have as it works faster and it is safer. As Dobato mentioned fluids, but I preffer honey or glucose instead sugar to boost her energy levels.


Thanks plamenh.
The only things I have on hand for coccidia are - Albon and Sulmet (sulfamethazine) "Drinking Water Solution".
So this is what I did - I mixed a half gallon dose of Sulmet, mixed in some "nutri-cal" and tube fed her 8 mls.
Not sure if your familiar with "nutri-cal". Its a high calorie suppliment, loaded with vitamins and minerals with added sources for energy. (corn syrup, soybean oil, cod liver oil, cane molasses, and too many vitamins and minerals to list!)
She hasn't pooped in awhile (it was brown water), so I'm thinking that's good - her intestines are resting.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

If nutrical is this:


> Brand Name
> *Nutri-Cal (Tomlyn)*
> The Nutri-Cal formula contains vitamin A, D & E, Phosphorus, Thiamine, Calcium, Manganese, Iodine, Potassium, Iron, Folic Acid, Riboflavin and other essential ingredients, and provides an additional 338 calories per feeding.
> Active Ingredient(s):
> (per 6 gm teaspoon) Vitamin E (5 IU), Vitamin B1 (1.7mg), Vitamin B2 (0.2 mg), Vitamin B6 ( 0.8 mg), Vitamin B12 (1.9 mcg), Folic Acid (0.2 mg), Niacin (1.9 mg), d-Pantothenic Acid (0.9 mg). Also contains Linoleic Acid, Linolenic Acid, EPA, DHA, Omega-6 and Omega-3 Fatty Acids.


Sounds very good and should keep her fit for some time even if only on fluids.

Maybe tomorrow you can start adding some baby bird formula to the mix, gradually until you reach normal consistancy. This way you will be able to check her poops.

She still needs to pass some waterry poop even if only on water. If not, there is a danger that her GI shuts down. Please keep her warm and monitor closely.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Well, we had a recent post on "Carrot Juice", may be u can give a try on that too


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

plamenh said:


> If nutrical is this:
> 
> 
> Sounds very good and should keep her fit for some time even if only on fluids.
> ...


Ya, that's the generic brand, but same ingredients. 
No change this morning. Hasn't eaten or drank anything on her own. No new poops. Still alert, but doesn't move around.
I'm going to start her on albon this morning, because I can single dose that instead of treating water with sulmet. And will start tube feedings.
I will take her to work with me tomorrow and send fecal sample to lab. I'm also going to take a radiograph to see if there's an egg involved.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

sreeshs said:


> Well, we had a recent post on "Carrot Juice", may be u can give a try on that too


Thanks, I did see that. I'm trying to figure out a good plan without overloading her.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> No change this morning. Hasn't eaten or drank anything on her own. No new poops. Still alert, but doesn't move around.


The no new poops is quite worrisome to me. The rest of the symptoms I can deal with, but this is the one symptom that is a real red flag to me and where I look for help ASAP, as there should be droppings of some sort, even bile droppings. At this point, without being too alarmist, if she were mine it would be straight to the vets for possible fluid therapy to get loaded with subQ fluids to get things moving again. Plus, an examine by the vet will help eliminate many possible causes of any blockages, such as being egg bound. If you can get her to the vets, I would hold off a bit in tubing her anything until it can be determined why things are not moving through her.

Karyn


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Any news yet? Did you check the crop? Full of water, empty? She should pass something by now.
I had simmilar case yesterday, urates and water, nothing hard. I used Spartrix and fluids and today is pooping like champ.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

She didn't eat or drink on her own last night. Did drink a small amount of water this morning. No poops - nothing. Still alert but just sitting.
I'm thinking blocked now.
Had alot of dry poop around vent - sat her in warm water and cleaned her vent with swab. she started contracting. Sitting in her cage next to me now so I can watch her. She's lifting her tail up and down like she's trying to pass something.
Very alert and doesn't seem uncomfortable but is in "nesting" position.
I did feed her 24 mls of formula early this morning.
Just gave her a drop of olive oil and small piece of "tums" (calcium)


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

If this IS egg binding, I can't pay $1,500. for surgery. So I need to do whatever *I* can.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I hope it is egg and shes working on it. Smear the vent with a bit of oil to keep it elastic and soft.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does the abdominal region feel like there's any mass or swelling in there?

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

When they are blocked up like this there are a number of things that can be done without incuring a $1500.00 vet bill. You are going have to take for granted anything you are giving her orally may not have full effect because you do not know how far down the GI they are reaching to be absorbed.

Many vets can feel an egg without a radiograph and he may also be able to give a shot of calcium and/or oxytocin, to help her pass the egg, if this is indeed what is causing her blockage, some are even skilled at applying the right pressure to help it pass.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

plamenh said:


> I hope it is egg and shes working on it. Smear the vent with a bit of oil to keep it elastic and soft.


I have olive oil and mineral oil. Which is best?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Does the abdominal region feel like there's any mass or swelling in there?
> 
> Pidgey


Hard to tell, possibly egg size. She doesn't want to stand. Will take a few steps to move around and kinda steps on her own toes.
Been sitting her in warm water then putting her on moist heat. Tail is now constantly going up and down.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> When they are blocked up like this there are a number of things that can be done without incuring a $1500.00 vet bill. You are going have to take for granted anything you are giving her orally may not have full effect because you do not know how far down the GI they are reaching to be absorbed.
> 
> Many vets can feel an egg without a radiograph and he may also be able to give a shot of calcium and/or oxytocin, to help her pass the egg, if this is indeed what is causing her blockage, some are even skilled at applying the right pressure to help it pass.
> 
> Karyn


The only vet that is somewhat knowledgeable won't be in until tomorrow afternoon. And I can tell you right now - it won't be any help.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

There are a range of dosing options for oxytocin, an in the middle range is 2 IU/kg IM along with calcium borogluconate 100 - 500 mg/kg IM for egg binding treatment. This is the standard treatment for injectables for egg binding, along with heat. By knowing the dosing you may help take some of their guessing out of the game as you now know what you bird may need, if you make the decision she needs help beyond your means.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> There are a range of dosing options for oxytocin, an in the middle range is 2 IU/kg IM along with calcium borogluconate 100 - 500 mg/kg IM for egg binding treatment. This is the standard treatment for injectables for egg binding, along with heat. By knowing the dosing you may help take some of their guessing out of the game as you now know what you bird may need, if you make the decision she needs help beyond your means.


Thank you, I'll take that info to work with me. We don't do avian (other than nail,beak and feather trims) so I'm betting we don't even have it


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Just a thought...maybe you could pop inot the clinic you work and do an Xray to see if there is an egg.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

She's sitting on a moist towel - on a heating pad. And just added an overhead light. 
I lubricated her vent (gently inside and out) with mineral oil.
She's still contracting. I'm guessing its moving down (or wishful thinking) because she's having trouble standing now. Keeps repositioning herself. Still alert.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Just a thought...maybe you could pop inot the clinic you work and do an Xray to see if there is an egg.


That's what I'd like to do but not a possibility today.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Is there possibility since you work at a clinic of them doing up an injection for you to give of calcium. You already have the dosing for the calcium borogluconate, the dosing for calcium gluconate is 50-100mg/kg IM. A good injection of calcium may go along way right now in helping her out if she is egg bound. You would give it directly into her breast muscle.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

She just died.
She was alert and contracting, then she looked up, gaped her beak and leaned over.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I am very sorry to have come back from the store to read this, please accept my sincerest condolences. I did not have a good feeling from this morning, and I was really hoping for an outcome much different than this for her.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> I very sorry to have come back from the store to read this, please accept my sincerest condolences. I did not have a good feeling from this morning, and I was really hoping for an outcome much different than this for her.
> 
> Karyn


Thanks, I really didn't either when things stopped moving - just wishful thinking I guess.
She was a (seemingly) healthy bird before this. Down and gone within 24 hours. 
After she died, as I was examining her, seed worked its way up into her mouth. So she did have seed in her crop. Not much, but some.
I'm still going to take her to work tomorrow and x-ray her abdomen. I just can't get myself to open her up to see what happened.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh waynette, i just caught this thread, i'm so sorry


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i'm the same way about opening them up, so many rehabbers do it because they want to know why something died, and they say i should, but i just can't do it


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

So sorry for your lose Msfreebird.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

My condolences. I was following the thread, and was hoping she would get better.

I am ambivalent about necropsies on birds I have rescued. Don't want to do it, but for some reason I felt I owed it to the two pigeons I studied after their death. The first one waited a month in the deep freeze before I could be objective about the whole thing. Learned some things, but still didn't have definitive answers to my questions. 

If some have the opinion one should do it, unless one has some medical training, what may seem to be the cause of death may not be the primary cause. Sometimes guesswork is useful, sometimes it obfuscates. 

Even though I opened them up, I saw only _beauty_ before me, and even though I had the two pigeons only a few days each, I still saw them as unique creatures, created with a lot of love and care. 

Larry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I just read your thread, Waynette and I am SOOOO sorry!!

My sincerest condolences!

Sure sounds like there was a "block" of some kind!

Sending *HEALING* THOUGHTS WITH LOVE AND HUGS! 

Shi


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Larry_Cologne said:


> My condolences. I was following the thread, and was hoping she would get better.
> 
> I am ambivalent about necropsies on birds I have rescued. Don't want to do it, but for some reason I felt I owed it to the two pigeons I studied after their death. The first one waited a month in the deep freeze before I could be objective about the whole thing. Learned some things, but still didn't have definitive answers to my questions.
> 
> ...


Thanks everybody,
And thanks Larry, I agree with your thoughts on this. I have her in the freezer and am trying to push myself. I do think I owe it to her.
I don't like the "not knowing" what happened.
Last year I had to put my 4yo cat to sleep. Sudden sneezing, wretching, vomited as soon as he ate or drank anything. Did ALL the tests, exams, endoscopy under anesthesia, and found NOTHING! Ended up surgically implanting a feeding tube thru the side of his neck to feed and aggressively medicate. This went on for a month and he continued to decline to the point that I had no choice but to make the decision. The doctors were baffled and asked if they could do an autopsy. I let them, but I couldn't assist (being my own cat). Turned out that he had a malignant tumor up over the soft pallet deep under the sinus cavity that was not accessible. Anything that went into his mouth (food, water, medication) was triggering his gag reflex because of the pressure of the tumor. So I did find out that there was nothing that could have been done and I made the right choice.
It killed me to put such a young cat to sleep - so I HAD to know what happened.


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## adamp12 (Feb 4, 2009)

could be cocci ,cocci lives in the bowels and when they multiply they starting to eat the bowels wall and show this kind of semptsons but thats guess .lab needs to get involved


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I have heard a dose of calcium to help contractions can help .... but in any case you did your best. It is hard to say if that would of helped. info below for (hope not) next time.

There are several techniques to try to correct the problem. The first is to offer a source of calcium, such as a cuttlebone or mineral block, and hope that the animal is strong enough to ingest it on her own. If not, you may need to force her to swallow liquid calcium (available at any drugstore) with an eyedropper, but be careful not to cause aspiration or damage the egg inside her with rough handling. In addition, a small amount of warmed mineral oil may be smeared around and within the vent and cloaca in order to add lubrication, and ease passage of the egg once contractions commence. Following these approaches, the hen should be put into a small cage covered with a towel, and placed in the bathroom with the shower spraying hot water to give steam and warmth. The heat and humidity should act to relax the tightened muscles and stimulate contractions. Alternatively, the bird can be repeatedly wrapped loosely in a hot, wet towel, changing the towel as it cools. Ensure that the bird is not wrapped so tightly that she cannot breathe. If the egg appears just at the opening of the cloaca, and the bird is straining, you might try to assist the passage by gently feeling for the egg and pushing it along. But be very careful to push only when the bird pushes herself, otherwise the muscles will be working against each other and injury may result.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> I have heard a dose of calcium to help contractions can help .... but in any case you did your best. It is hard to say if that would of helped. info below for (hope not) next time.
> 
> There are several techniques to try to correct the problem. The first is to offer a source of calcium, such as a cuttlebone or mineral block, and hope that the animal is strong enough to ingest it on her own. If not, you may need to force her to swallow liquid calcium (available at any drugstore) with an eyedropper, but be careful not to cause aspiration or damage the egg inside her with rough handling. In addition, a small amount of warmed mineral oil may be smeared around and within the vent and cloaca in order to add lubrication, and ease passage of the egg once contractions commence. Following these approaches, the hen should be put into a small cage covered with a towel, and placed in the bathroom with the shower spraying hot water to give steam and warmth. The heat and humidity should act to relax the tightened muscles and stimulate contractions. Alternatively, the bird can be repeatedly wrapped loosely in a hot, wet towel, changing the towel as it cools. Ensure that the bird is not wrapped so tightly that she cannot breathe. If the egg appears just at the opening of the cloaca, and the bird is straining, you might try to assist the passage by gently feeling for the egg and pushing it along. But be very careful to push only when the bird pushes herself, otherwise the muscles will be working against each other and injury may result.


Thanks spirit wings,
I did all that, she just died *during* contractions.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear for the little one gone, Waynette. If you can find out what was the reason for her death, it may help for your other birds.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Thanks spirit wings,
> I did all that, she just died *during* contractions.


oh... I must of skipped that part... I should of known your work would of gave her a calcium injection.... are you even sure this is what took her?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> oh... I must of skipped that part... I should of known your work would of gave her a calcium injection.... are you even sure this is what took her?


I never even got her to work, I gave her calcium at home. This all took place in less than 24 hours.
I'm not sure what was wrong with her other than she was blocked and trying to pass something. As soon as I sat her in warm water, she started having contractions. She was alert the whole time, just didn't want to move around. That's how I noticed her in the loft Sunday afternoon, and all the males were trying to mate her. She wasn't fluffed up at all. 
I still have her in the freezer, I'm going to take her to work and find out what happened.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

*msfreebird*

Take your pretty white bird to a vet if it is still alive for I think it has egg-yolk peratitis--sometimes they can overcome this sickness because it heals in their abdomen but not often--they fill up with fluids and die--your bird is perched slumped forward a bit--shows it has fluid--don't give this bird much hope.....Take it to a vet for a diagnosis or a rehabitor.....c.hert


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Waynette, I am so sorry that this beautiful bird died despite all your care. The scarey potential for an egg binding problem is always in the back of my mind with hens. Please let us know if you find out any more regarding the cause of her demise. Again, my sincere condolences. You are so conscientious with your birds.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

TerriB said:


> Waynette, I am so sorry that this beautiful bird died despite all your care. The scarey potential for an egg binding problem is always in the back of my mind with hens. Please let us know if you find out any more regarding the cause of her demise. Again, my sincere condolences. You are so conscientious with your birds.


Thank you sooo much, you don't know how that makes me feel. I love my birds very much and "work" (a vet clinic) and my kids just don't seem to understand why someone can love pigeons so much, it makes me angry and I don't want to be.
I still have her in the freezer, and I am going to take her to work next week and open her up. I hate to do this, but I have to.
Thank you again


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