# Help-poisoned pij



## critterlover2 (Jan 15, 2001)

Hello all,

looking for help in all places. I found a pij that has eaten poisoned corn. s/he has been convulsing for at least an hour and has thrown up a kernel of corn. No vets here, I have been down that road. Is there anything else that can be done for it? All help is appreciated.

Terri


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Syringe water down to try and wash out whatever it is. That is about all you can do. Syringe the water every hour.


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"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."

Albert Schweitzer


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Terri,

Hear is a copy of my post to you from pigeons.org in case you see this first.

So sorry to hear about yet another poisoned pigeon. You really need a vet to administer a Toxiban treatment and a shot of atropine. I suspect this is not possible tonight so, let's try for a homespun remedy. If you have some activated charcoal capsules or tabs, mix it with some water .. maybe about 30 cc and syringe it into the bird. This will make a
huge mess when the bird starts passing the black fluid, but needs to be done. Wait
about 45 minutes and then start giving the bird all the fluids you can get into it to help flush the system. Keep the bird very warm. The activated charcoal should be available at any drug store or health
food store ... not exactly a product that we all have on hand. The charcoal is to help bind the poison and get it passed thru as quickly as possible.

Keep us posted and good luck. Remember Marian's last poisoned bird ... it pulled through even though it wasn't really
treated until the second or third day.

Terry Whatley


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Terri,

Check pigeons.org .. Dave and Marian have posted to you there.

Terry Whatley


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## critterlover2 (Jan 15, 2001)

Terry and Fred,

Thank you for your advice. I went out in search of activated charcoal/Ipecac, but not luck whatsoever. I will continue the water and as much as I want to comfort him, will leave him to rest as much as possible.

What ever makes people think this type of killing will help, I will never understand. To put any animal through such horror is beyond my understanding. I am so very sad, angry and exhausted from both.

Thanks, I will keep you updated on this little guy.

Terri


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

They Are Dying Out There!

What follows is a remarkable dialog of friends helping in a crisis. This is desperate and heart breaking. The messages are in the order they were originally sent.

Here you will "see" what your pest control companies are doing all over the country. This will bring it home...

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray

*****
Hei everyone, 

After a nice evening to dinner w/my husband, I looked across the street and noticed a pij flopping around, at first thinking that it was the mating dance, but kept watching (as I could only see the wings behind the curbing) then a man stopped in the pkng lot and picked it up and moved it off the driveway and onto the dirt. It was then that I noticed that there was a problem. 

I deserted my husband at the table and ran across the street. Sure enough after a few seconds w/pij, I knew she had been poisoned!! She's convulsing and flopping. I was feeling her crop to see if there was anything in it but couldn't feel anything. Then after a few minutes she threw up a kernel of corn. That's it. The poisoned treat. 

No vets here, been there done that. Is there anything that can be done for her? Should she be given water? I have her wrapped in a blanket and just holding her trying to keep myself from falling apart. Do you think that the throwing up of the corn kernel is of any help? Damn!!!!! 

What can I do? 

Thanks, 
Terri

*****
Hi Terri,

Where are you located? Let me know and I'll try to locate some avian 
wildlife rehabbers near you -- or have you already checked? If you are 
on your own, get some activated charcoal from the drug store or grocery 
store digestive aids section. Mix about 1/5 of a capsule with only a 
few cc of water and tube it into the crop. Place the patient in a dark, 
quiet, and cool place and monitor closely. Repeat charcoal in a half 
hour if crop is empty. Not much else I can think of for you to do 
unless you have diazepam or other anticonvulsant. If you like, call me...

Dave

*****
Terri,
Look for Activated Charcoal tomorrow at pharmacy. Might be called Epicac or Ipecac. Ask the pharmacist. It is the human equivalent of Toxiban and I should have said to ask for that tonight if your husband called. I would just try the same 5 cc on pijjie tomorrow, given in small amounts as tolerated. 

Also, if you are going to stay up with him and he isn't convulsing, give him cool water with tube or syringe. Try to get 20 cc in him during the night, or whatever he can tolerate in little amounts. He is very dehydrated. 

Tomorrow, get some unflavored pedialyte and switch to that for his water. Same amount of 20-30 cc spread over the next 24 hours. 
Marian

*****
Hi Terri,

Do you have any charcoal? If you do, make a little pile of fine shavings with a razor or sharp knife. About l tablespoon. I am completely guessing at these amounts--never done before. So I'll just say 60/40 of shavings to water. (so you're combining 1 TB of shavings with a little less than 1 TB of water. Shake and tube about 5 cc total into him.
Do a small amount at a time (2 cc) as he may vomit and choke. There is always the danger that he will aspirate these fluids and die in your hands, but maybe holding him steady and waiting for a moment when he is not vomiting you can do. If you don't have tubing equipment, use an eyedropper.
Don't try if he is vomiting.
If there is an open pharmacy, ask if your husb can call and see if they have activated charcoal so you won't have to make it. It's not prescription. If you can't find, try the homemade. 
The charcoal binds the poison to keep the body from absorbing it.
It's given with atropine but you can't get that. 
He's probably overheated (feels hot) and dehydrated. Try not to make him hotter when you hold him. You can cool him a bit with cool compresses on his feet (wet paper towel). 
He may keep convulsing til tomorrow. Or he may die soon or in some hours. If he is still alive in the morning, you can give another total 5 cc of the charcoal mix, again in small amounts that he can tolerate.
This is extremely serious so if you lose him, know that even a vet might not be able to help him. 
Sorry for the incoherence of this message.

Good luck,
Marian

*****
Dave/Marian,

We are sort of all telling Terri the same things but
I am concerned that I am off track on a couple of
issues.

Dave .. why a cool place? I told her to keep the
bird very warm. I certainly don't want to be doing
more harm here in case Terri sees my post before
yours and Marian's.

Marian .. I told her to try to get about 30cc of the
charcoal mixture down the bird. I realize this is a
good amount, but I was also thinking she would be
using an entire 500mg capsule. Do you know how
much charcoal needs to get into the bird to be effective?

Thanks!

Terry Whatley

*****
You go, girl! God speed to you! At the soonest chance, look for more 
victims and treat accordingly. Try to find the source and let us know 
so we can get it stopped, stat!

For more info, see http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/UWS/UVaAvitrol.html http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=5&q=http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/courses/vb320 /lecture4.ppt&e=42 http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/rodent/4-aminopyridine/rod-prof-aminopyridine.html  

Dave

*****
Hi Marian,

Envirolink sure seems slow, doesn't it -- especially in an emergency? I 
did the same thing you did -- forwarded a previous message thinking it 
didn't go through.

You and I are definitely on the same treatment advice wavelength. Looks 
like all we can do now is wait for more news -- and pray.

Best,

Dave

*****
Teresa Whatley wrote:

> Dave/Marian,
> 
> We are sort of all telling Terri the same things but
> I am concerned that I am off track on a couple of
> issues.
> 
> Dave .. why a cool place? I told her to keep the
> bird very warm. I certainly don't want to be doing
> more harm here in case Terri sees my post before
> yours and Marian's.


Hi Terry and Marian,

Unfortunately, I've handled hundreds of Avitrol victims. They suffer 
from tachyarrhythmias and seizures, both of which can cause 
hyperthermia, hence the logic for a cool rather than warm environment. 
Also, cool is better for head trauma, which is a possible sequela of the 
convulsions. After the seizures subside and if exhaustion hypothermia 
is detected, a warm environment would be indicated.


> Marian .. I told her to try to get about 30cc of the
> charcoal mixture down the bird. I realize this is a
> good amount, but I was also thinking she would be
> using an entire 500mg capsule. Do you know how
> much charcoal needs to get into the bird to be effective?


The protocol I use is 1 gram/kg, in a water slurry, by gavage. I prefer 
small amounts frequently to avoid aspiration, especially if the 
possibility of severe convulsions still exists. It sure would be nice 
to have injectable diazepam handy but, it is a controlled substance.

. . .
Best,

Dave

*****
Hi all,
I hope everyone has time to check the second site below (citybirds.com). It
is outstanding. I sent an e mail to it's author and his response was the
stuff that new PL members are made of. Sadly, he mentioned that he had
never gotten a positive response to his site about pigeons--only questions
about how to get rid of them--until his URL was listed on a site last
week.

So if you can, please let him know your thoughts on his site. He is very
knowledgeable about birds and is devoted to them.
Marian

*****
Dave, Marian, Terry, Fred 

First, pij is still with us, but I have to say this 'sucks!!'. I have been to Rite Aid Walmart, (longs was closed by the time I got there) and 3 grocery stores....NO ACTIVATED CHARCOAL or Ipicac to be found. I have such a headache. We have charcoal brickets but they have that fluid crap in them. 

I have pij in the bathtub, he was wrapped in a blanket, but by the time I got home he had moved out. He seems to go thru stages of shaking/convulsing then some quiet time. His pupils are very tiny, I would have expected them to be dialated. I will continue to give water, I don't have pedialye on hand, but have water soluble vitamins, will that help or hinder? He has watery, slightly foamy poops. I have the light off so he is in the darkest place in the house. 

I will check with Longs tomorrow am and just hope he can hang on until then, although I hate to see this happening! 

I have to go to the Bay Area tomorrow, so now I am in quite a quandry. If I keep him with me he will surely be stressed, but I can't leave him alone either. 

Dave, I have noticed the flocks diminishing in the past couple of weeks and am guessing that the money the city dolled out to 'Wildlife Control Technologies' is being put to use. This is however the first physical proof I have that that is what is happening. 

I saw Terry's post about the warm or cool question, which is best? 

Thank you everyone, we'll have to wait it out until tomorrow and until then I will try to make this precious little one as comfortable as possible for as much agony as he must be in. 

Terri

*****
I am so glad Dave got right on this. I have almost no experience with
treating poisoned birds. Do whatever Dave says. The crude charcoal
treatment was for use when there is nothing else to work with, and I just
made a wild guess at the ratios as it wouldn't hurt.

I haven't used the capsules before. I have the Toxiban and the dose for
that is l0 ml /kg. The bottle concentration is l00 mg/ml. Lily is about
300 grams so she would take a dose of 3 ml, but my vet gave her 5 ml (wide
range of safety). 3 ml is 300 mg, Lily got 500 mg anyway, so it's the
same as your dose.

The hyperthermia issue is well-explained by Dave. The birds often feel like
they are burning up with fever as they convulse. They dehydrate very
quickly, increasing the hyperthermia. They need to be cooled fast, before
brain damage occurs, with monitoring for being chilled after the cooling
down. Maintaining them in a padded, cool environment is needed. No water
dishes until bird is out of danger of falling in and drowning.

The appropriate way of rehydrating them is by sub q fluids (Lactated
Ringers isotonic solution) as this reaches the cells much more quickly and
efficiently than oral fluids. But, again, we can just do what we are able.

Xanax or Ativan (mild tranquilizers, human meds) are used to control
convulsions, or to help a bird get some pain relief and sleep after it has
sustained major wounds. Vets prescribe them, but the only meds you might
have on hand might be from your own doctor....

What about having a few protocols for emergencies like this? I can only
think of a few in which we would want to spare members what Terri went
through, trying to e mail us for help while being frantic about the bird and
trying to comfort it at the same time.
Protocols would include some supplies and meds to have on hand. I don't
know how it would be accessed on the site. It wouldn't be a big emergency
medicine manual--just some "I need help NOW! " situations.
poisoning/convulsing
head trauma (acute)
hyperthermia and dehydration
hypothermia
bleeding blood feather

other--can't think now...

See everyone tomorrow.

Marian

*****
Hi guys, 

Ok, cool is better for now. I just checked on him again and he actually took two good drinks of water on his own, but he seemed to get agitated and went into a huge convulsion, his eyes closing very tight and his head pulling back to his back then his head would flop very hard forward, this is so very hard to watch. When it eased up, I noticed his eyes. There is a red ring of I am assuming blood vessels, around the edge of his eyeballs. Does this have any significance other than the pressure and strain of the convulsions? 

Dave, could you tell me a little bit more on what this poison is doing to him? Disorienting, convulsing I know. But never even having had food poisoning, I don't know the kind of pains he is experiencing, it's not pleasant, this I know, but I have to know what is happening to this little guy. 

Thanks and best to you all, 
Terri 

*****
Terry Wrote:

> Dave, Marian, Terry, Fred
> 
> First, pij is still with us, but I have to say this 'sucks!!'. I have 
> been to Rite Aid Walmart, (longs was closed by the time I got there) and 
> 3 grocery stores....NO ACTIVATED CHARCOAL or Ipicac to be found. I have 
> such a headache. We have charcoal brickets but they have that fluid crap 
> in them.


Hi Terri,

I know the feeling! Mega-kudos to you for your heroic efforts. Did you 
check in the antacids section?

Ipicac is an emetic. It induces vomiting. Don't use it if your patient 
is still convulsing.

Activated charcoal is a toxicant adsorbent, which can be used in small 
quantities even if the patient is convulsing. It can help keep any 
poison in the crop or digestive tract from being absorbed and 
metabolized. Hopefully, your patient vomited and excreted enough to 
survive.

> I have pij in the bathtub, he was wrapped in a blanket, but by the time 
> I got home he had moved out. He seems to go thru stages of 
> shaking/convulsing then some quiet time. His pupils are very tiny, I 
> would have expected them to be dialated. I will continue to give water, 
> I don't have pedialye on hand, but have water soluble vitamins, will 
> that help or hinder? 


Plain water should help flush out the GI tract.

> He has watery, slightly foamy poops. I have the 
> light off so he is in the darkest place in the house.


Sounds good.


> I will check with Longs tomorrow am and just hope he can hang on until 
> then, although I hate to see this happening!
> 
> I have to go to the Bay Area tomorrow, so now I am in quite a quandry. 
> If I keep him with me he will surely be stressed, but I can't leave him 
> alone either.


You might try using a large paper grocery bag with multiple small 
ventilation holes and folded newspaper on the bottom, with or without a 
paper towel, for transport. Fold the top and use a clothes pin or large 
paper clips to keep closed. It is relatively dark and can be easily 
checked.


> Dave, I have noticed the flocks diminishing in the past couple of weeks 
> and am guessing that the money the city dolled out to 'Wildlife Control 
> Technologies' is being put to use. This is however the first physical 
> proof I have that that is what is happening.


Give us the details and we'll help you get it stopped.


> I saw Terry's post about the warm or cool question, which is best?


I'd just keep a close eye on his/her temperature and adjust the 
environment if s/he gets too hot or too cold.


> Thank you everyone, we'll have to wait it out until tomorrow and until 
> then I will try to make this precious little one as comfortable as 
> possible for as much agony as he must be in.


You're doing a good job with what you have available, Dr. T. Keep us posted.

Dave

*****
Pet stores!

Aquarium filters use activated charcoal--the same stuff used in on-the-counter water purifiers. It may come in cartridges or packets, or in refill containers. Whatever! What's inside is activated charcoal. A 24-hour Walmart pet department may have it by the fishes.

We're with you here!

Ray N' Judy

*****
Ray, 

Always thinking! Great idea. Our Walmart is not open 24 hrs anymore, go figure, so that's where I'll be first thing a.m. 

Thanks, 
Terri 

*****
Hi Terri,

Keep cool while he is convulsing. If convulsions stop, he can get chilled fast. Remove any wet cool wrap you might have on his feet. Keep him in a room temp of 75-80 F if he seems normal temp ( legs, feet, beak feel like normal temp to touch). 

Don't bother with vitamins in water. Not relevant. 

Are you going to the Bay Area via 5 or 99? If 99, you 're welcome to drop him off here. 
Taking a bird that critical to SF with you will be too hard a day for both of you.
I'm sorry you're both going through this awful night.

Let me know,
Marian 

*****
End

Question: Are we really going to let this go on?

[This message has been edited by raynjudy (edited April 06, 2002).]


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## joann woodring (Mar 27, 2002)

Hi, Just to say that activated charcoal can be bought in any pet store that handles tropical fish. I buy it in 1lb. bags for my fish. It is totally safe for fish or bird.

Good luck!


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