# Metering Individual Doses



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This thread is only really of use to folks who rehab lots of pigeons and manage their own medicating.

One of the irritating things about medicating birds to me is that the meds are usually packaged to make it easy enough to treat the entire loft but not so easy to work with just one bird. I got tired enough of mixing an entire cup or quart of water that I've acquired the tools to meter out individual doses. For the powdered drugs like Doxycycline, Emtryl, Medistatin, Trimethoprim/Sulfa, Keflex, etc. I use the GemPro 50 electronic scale that has a resolution down to 2 milligrams. And for the liquid drugs like Baytril 10%, I use a 3/10's ml syringe. Here's a picture of the scale and the littlest syringe next to a regular 1 ml and a 3 ml so that you can see how small it is:



You might be able to get those itty-bitty syringes from avian vets but a lot of vets don't know they exist. I also have some laboratory micro-milliliter syringes that meter as small as 1/10,000th of one ml but that doesn't come in useful very often (never, in fact). I just mentioned it because you wouldn't have believed that they existed.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,

That's a very professional looking set up that's shown in the pic, and really a good idea in terms of convenience, access in that a drug one might not purchase due to relatively complicated medicating calculations would no longer be a problem, and assurance that the individual bird is getting precisely the recommended dose rate. Thanks for posting the pic of your equipment as I'm sure you did your homework on scales before the purchase, looks like you chose 
GemPro 50!

The two vet clinics that I've gotten the syringes from carry the 1 & 3ml but only go as small as the 1ml. I was wondering if you purchased the smaller one on line or locally?

Thanks,

fp


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Treatments*

Even for people with alot of birds. We still need to treat the individual bird for each illness. Most meds are for flock treatment. And it is hard to break down smaller dose treatments. It would be nice if there was a med chart that broke down all doses.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, as usual, great info. Like Debbie, I would love to see a thread devoted entirely to doses of the various meds that we use routinely. I have mentioned that I have set up tables on the ones I use by pigeon weight and dose amount. It really helps - particularly if you are in a hurry to get meds into a bird quickly when you get them in and don't have to calculate the dose. Too, for someone who is mathmatically challenged as I am it reduces the chance of error.

Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I ordered the GemPro 50 online. You can search on it and then compare all the deals including the shipping. I got it for the least amount that I could find which would put it near $140 total. I know it's expensive but it's going to pay for itself in a few years. One of the things that it's really great for is breaking up human-use capsules like the Keflex that I've got--I've got either 500 or 750 mgs (can't remember) and I can divvy them up easy this way.

One of my vets gave me the small syringe. I haven't looked for them online but I don't see how you could keep from getting a gross of them if you did that.

Lady Tarheel,

If you've already developed a dosing chart, then post it here! We can add meds and fill it out if need be.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Okey-doke, will do.

Maggie


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Sticky*

Can someone make a doseage sticky for all us pigeon people. I know it a difficult thing to do. But what a help.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Debbie, I'm working on it.

Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

Eventually we'll also have to develop a section for drugs that vary like Baytril. It can be gotten in different forms and concentrations so some notation will have to be made to address that. To that end, we'll probably have to get folks to cough up some info as to their meds though.

We may also be able to post it in spreadsheet form like the rehabber list on Pigeons.com. You've seen that, right?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, yes, I had already decided I wouldn't touch Baytril with a 10 ft. pole.
There are too many variances. I have even had a vet tell me that.

I do plan to do it spreadsheet style if I can.

Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I think we can address it somehow--it will just have to be several individual entries with some means of identification. The Baytril that I use is actually Baytril 100. My vet called it "large animal Baytril". There's also a Baytril 50 and a Baytril 25. Those are the ones put out by Bayer but it seems that there are some other weird deals where they're mixed with the fruit juice (grape juice, I think). Usually though, you get those from a vet on a case-by-case basis so I think we can just put in a disclaimer: IF YOU GOT YOUR BAYTRIL FROM A VET THEN FOLLOW HIS/HER INSTRUCTIONS AND BLAME HIM/HER IF YOUR BIRD CROAKS!

Otherwise, we'll probably only be dealing with the forms that people can get from Foy's, Siegels (sp?), etc. Seeing as how Baytril is one of the most commonly used meds for pigeons (even if it shouldn't be), we need to address it some way or another.

We might oughta' ask TAWhatley about the spreadsheet format that they use for the rehabber list. It might be the cat's meow here.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Here is a repeat of a post originally from Helen (Nooti) who is a very experienced wildlife rehabber in the UK and formerly an active member and moderator here. I'll have to look for the copy of the ivertmectin chart.

Terry
--------------------------------------------
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This file graciously provided by Helen (Nooti)
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Here's a list of drugs which I have used successfully for years and 
the ailments which are sensitive to those particular medications.
I have used the generic names first and the brand names in brackets 
which people will be familiar with. These brand names can be 
different in different parts of the world but the active ingredient 
is the same.

ENROFLOXACIN (Baytril) Dose - 10-20mgs per kilo - BID (twice daily) 
7 - 21 days 
Effective against small surface wounds containing aerobic bacteria, 
oral E.coli and salmonella -(Paratyphoid)
It is ineffective against anaerobic bacteria and should not be used 
for any gut bacterial problems or deep puncture wounds which involve 
anaerobics. 
Baytril is not a bacterial stat antibiotic -(killing bacteria 
outright), rather it inhibits the uncurling of the bacterial DNA 
gyrase which means the mature bacteria are unable to reproduce so 
die of 'old age' without issue. Problems with effectiveness can 
result if given concurrently with another drug which is a bacterial 
stat.

TRIMETHOPRIM/SULPHONAMIDES (Septrin, Bactrim, Co-trim, Tribrissen, 
Septra, Sulphatrim)
Dose - 30 mg per kilo. BID 7 days
Effective against most anaerobic bacteria and therefore suitable for 
gut bacterial infections and coccdial overburdens. The very best of 
this family of drugs is Trimethoprim Sulphamethoxazole- (Septrin) 
which effects a cure in 99.9% of cases if caught early. Can be used 
in conjunction with penicillins. 
It is ineffective in the presence of necrotic tissue. 

AMOXYCILLIN AND CLAVULANIC ACID (Synulox, Clavamox) Dose - up 
to 50 mgs per kilo BID if injection or up to 125mgs per kilo TID 
(three times daily) orally- up to 3 weeks. Dose and dosing interval 
determined by infection site, severity and organism involved. Used 
to treat severe or deep puncture wounds, and helps greatly in 
preventing the spread of necrotic tissue. Is also effective against 
gut E.coli.
It is not recommended that this drug be given orally in the case of 
critically ill patients as absorption from the GI tract is 
unreliable, however many people do not have access or knowledge to 
give by injection so orally is the only option and better than 
nothing.
This drug has a much broader spectrum than Baytril and therefore 
will treat a much greater range of ailments. Can be used in 
conjunction with Trim Sulphas. Refrigerate oral suspension and 
discard after 10 days or if liquid becomes dark. Avoid concurrent 
use with tetracycline, erythromycin and chloramphenicol.

METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl, Torgyl, Stormogyl) 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 
40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days. 
In very rare cases, liver damage can be caused by prolonged use over 
14 days - but it is very rare and one must balance the risks.
If maintained for 14 days or more it is highly effective against a 
severe infection of trichomonas gallinae and in preventing an inside 
recurrence- (not reinfection from an outside source, ie another 
bird).
Used for anaerobic, (flushing deep wounds), and protozoal 
infections. Can be given concurrently with Amoxy and Trim Sulphas.

DEXAMETHASONE (Duphacort Q, Colvasone, Dexadreson, Dexafort)
0.3-1mg per kilo OID or BID or q (every) 48hrs until not needed. Use 
higher doses for shock and trauma.
Dexamethasone is a corticosteroid whose anti-inflammatory potency is 
7.5 times greater than prednisolone and is suitable for high-dose 
therapy. It is also an appetite stimulant.
Used for concussion in the main but can be used if given on 
alternate days as an appetite stimulant for birds who - despite 
showing no obvious symptoms or have been through a long drawn out 
illness, simply refuse to self feed.
When discontinuing after chronic therapy, dose should be tapered 
off - ie every alternate day until cessation. Chronic use or abrupt 
withdrawal of drug may lead to development of Cushings Syndrome as 
the drug depresses adrenal gland function.

FENBENDAZOLE (Panacur)
Dose - 16mgs/kg as a one off dose, repeated after 10 days if necessary if targeting nematodes. Give for 3 consecutive days if 
targeting Syngamus Trachea (lungworm) or microfiliae and trematodes. 
5 consecutive days if targeting capillariasis. I often just give a 
one off dose but will repeat depending on severity of infection.
Note - if targeting Syngamus trachea - a course of Amoxy and Clav 
acid should be given for at least 14 days afterwards as the worms 
are in the lungs and not the digestive tract so are not excreted and 
the bodies will rot in the bronchial tubes where they lie, causing 
severe infection.

IVERMECTIN - see attached chart.

HARTMANN'S SOLUTION (lactated ringers)
This is used as a water/electrolyte replacement therapy. As a 
general rule 40-60mls per kilo per day is a maintenance dose. In 
cases of severe dehydration double or triple the dose. Can be 
injected IV, (intravenously) SQ (Sub cutenously)or IP 
(intraperitonium) (recommended for speedy recovery).

LECTADE - as above but for oral use only

VALIUM (Diazepam)
Valium is a member of the benzodiazepine family. Benzodiazepines are 
sedatives that cause dose-related depression of the central nervous 
system. They are useful in treating anxiety, insomnia, seizures, and 
muscle spasms. Diazepam is also used for the short-term relief of 
symptoms related to anxiety disorders produced by constant caring 
for sick, injured and orphaned pigeons.
Note - high doses mixed with alcohol may result in a permanent 
cure. 

Helen at Wild-Life-Line


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I think the common drugs and dosages chart is a great idea. Who wants to be the ringleader on this? 

You can find a lot of on-line information by Googling "veterinary formulary" .. a couple of good ones come up.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I always do the math on the scientific calculator but I'm used to that now. Since Lady Maggie had already created her own chart, I figured that it probably will work nicely for what we want--an individual dosing chart that's as simple as possible. Maggie's math has always been flawless when she's posted dosing stuff on the board so she's probably the best for the job. MAGGIE FOR PRESIDENT!!! ("Madam Maggie the Ringleader" has such a nice ring to it.)

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aw, shucks, Pidgey

I hopefully will be able to post the info over the weekend. 

Maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Individual Dosage chart-for common drugs*



Lady Tarheel said:


> I hopefully will be able to post the info over the weekend.
> Maggie


*That will be great Maggie...and I will do the "sticky" (the easy) part.  *


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Thank you*

You people are great. This will be a neat project. And be a help to all who want to save pigeons. With everyone working together and pooling all the information. Something good is going to happen.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I tried Terry's suggestion and googled veterinary formulary. I was kind of dissapointed in that some that looked really good will only allow professionals to access the formulary section. But I'm posting what I did find, and I also found a pretty good link to Avian Pathology that I think would be good to include as well. I think I overall had better luck when I put pigeon in front of the first search criteria.


http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html

http://www.vet.uga.edu/ivcvm/1999/Dorrestein/dorrestein.htm

http://members.aol.com/duiven/vet.htm

http://www.birdsinwhite.com/articles/article7.html

http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=6

http://www.priscoracingpigeonloft.com/articles/hygieneandmedication.htm

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...inary+formulary&d=GDDDWo6CL1Z8&icp=1&.intl=us

http://web.uconn.edu/poultry/poultrypages/


Here are the couple on avian pathology and preparing slides:

http://www.afip.org/CLDavis/GrossCourse99/avian.htm

http://www.californiaavianlaboratory.com/resources.html


And, unbelievably enough, don't ask me how erectile dysfunction and depression links came in the last search, but they did. Oh, yes, and one lonely link to a site about LSD. Anyway hope some of these will be of some help!

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, thank you so much. I have bookmarked many of the sites. You are the best "googler" I know.

Love, maggie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Yale Veterinary Formulary*

This is a real good 'un but hard to find by Googling for some reason:

http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/drugs.htm

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Maggie,

I'm happy to help in some way, I know you still have the labor intensive task of coallating everything. I put the duiven/vet in because some may not have browsed our resource section and found it, but PT does have that one. And I thought the Global one was interesting from the perspective of "official" dosing and pij supply house recommendations. Anyway, I know you still have the tough job of coalating all the information into spreadsheet format and I can't be more thankful for that! 

Terry, THANK-YOU!! I'm not saying that I'm holding out on PT or anything, but I did find that one, just omitted accidently.

So, I went back to check and see if I'd missed anything else, and here is a recent thread from Homesteading Today in the search list:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/vb/showthread.php?t=85576

By the way, your new avatar is just adorable  .

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, that last one was interesting. I thought I was going crazy for a minute in thinking that was PT but realized it is a separate forum that looks just like ours.

Terry, your duckling is so cute.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Maggie,

LOL, that one had my head turned around for a while as well . I did think the recipe for using Ivermectin diluted as a spray to be an interesting one by Yucca Lofts. I've heard about using for bathing, just not as a spray-on. Seemed like a good little tip.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

I was just looking at that thread you posted from the Homesteading Forum....EEEEsh Those people on that forum are hicks, ******* hicks and if you read some of the threads in the poultry section...you'll be disgusted by some of their practices.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't hardly seem right that there site has the same colors, schemes and layouts as ours. Let's sue!

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Mmmm,*

Homesteading Today is similar, but not identical...after all, sometimes if people want the best they COPY from the BEST! Isn't there a quote that says" imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" or did I mangle the quote? Anyway, something like that!

Besides, their site isn't strictly pigeon oriented...Since we ARE the BEST, we don't have to shout...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Duckling Avatar*

Thanks all who are enjoying my duckling avatar .. this little one made his debut in this group of pictures http://www.rims.net/2005Sep06

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi FP,
> 
> I was just looking at that thread you posted from the Homesteading Forum....EEEEsh Those people on that forum are hicks, ******* hicks and if you read some of the threads in the poultry section...you'll be disgusted by some of their practices.


Hi Brad,

It might be true that I'd be disgusted w/some of their practices, I did notice that many were 'militant' meat eaters . Although, Chalmers does intentionally infect his pigeons with pathogens for research purposes and the pigeons do sometimes die as a result. But I wouldn't discount what he has to say about the care of pigeons. 

I think it boils down to being able to use available information to one's advantage.

And, yeah, what a bunch of copy cats  

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

Yes of course you're right, it doesn't really matter where the source of the information comes from as long as it's accurate. I was just grossed out when I started going through some of the posts...talking about shootin' this, killin' that. Pictures of dead animals that they killed trying to get into their chicken coops. And the most disturbing, was what some fed their chickens!!!!!! 

By the way folks, there are TONS of forums that look nearly identical to ours It's Vbulletin software by Jelsoft Enterprises and they sell the software to various internet groups who then adapt it to their own individual needs.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm just going to add a note to this thread that applies to the GemPro 50: in order to meter out a 2 milligram dose somewhat accurately, it appears necessary to have the tare loaded up a bit first. I use little glass vials that weigh about 2 grams (it's a 10 gram scale). This information may only be useful to fp because I think she got one just like it but if anyone else ever did, this is good to know. I finally got a 500 down to 1 milligram calibrated weight set today and finally proved out my suspicions about the scale. Also, sometimes it starts getting sluggish and that's when you need to run it back through the regular calibration procedure with the weight that came with it.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, Pidgey, tare frequently, overload on small doses with a pre-weighed calibration, clean the weighing tray frequently, and make sure that nothing falls into the internal mechanism when loading the tray. _This can occur with the construction of the instrument._ Thanks for raising the topic again.

fp


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