# White bred with white =blue??



## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I have a pair of white birds who have had round after round of pure white babies. Now they have one white and what appears to be either a bb/check with white flights or a blue splash. Can I breed this bird back to whites to continue producing whites?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I do not have a clue about genetics but just thought this was interesting because I have white birds also...My guess is you could breed this one to white and get white...he may even get lighter as he moults when he matures... would love to see a pic of the nestlings....I have read that breeding grizzle to grizzle they tend to get lighter and lighter, I do think that is where the white comes from.....


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Assuming no other cock topped the hen and the BCWF youngster is out of the whites, then yes. Here's what's gone on. 

Your whites are likely one homozygous recessive white and one "ash-red grizzle carrying het recessive white" white. It's definite if one of the birds is colored, rather than "bull" wyed. If so, then this round you've gotten a het rec white and since it's only a heterozygous recessive while, you're seeing the "color" of the bird (blue check). He's almost assuredly carrying recessive white, so if you pair him to a dark eyed white (a homozygous recessive white), then you'll get about 50% white and 50% some color.

Frank


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Actually all I have are white males and they are all bull eyed. I was actually happy to see some color. I will let it feather out and I will post a pic. 

It is interesting none the less. Thanks for the explanation.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I hardly know a thing at all about recessive whites, but I do know that they are the bull eyed ones normally. I like to think of it as a splashed bird gone extreme, to where you don't see any color. I don't know if that's what's actually happening. Can you have a homozygous grizzle, with bull or very dark eyes? I've got some grizzles with dark eyes, but they aren't ****. grizzles.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2008)

you do realize that your king pigeon could have easily topped your hen as well , well that or maybe one of those stray pigeons that you adopted could have layed an egg in this hens nest  just some possiblities to consider


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

No this pair is good trust me no mixes here. Also the king had bred with a single hen i had who raised a baby and it was obvious in a week the baby was part king. So far it looks like this baby is going to be blue with even patches of white near the tail and on the flights.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2008)

sounds like its gonna be a very pretty pigeon no matter what  Im sure it happens more then we hear about , with my whites I do get grizzles but never had a solid colored bird just yet


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I have this pair of Pakistani Highflyers. Both are black and white. And they have produced pure white pigeons, 75% brown pigeons, 50% white 50% brown, grey, black, grizzle's, everything :| lol...


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*That's not too complicated*



Gurbir said:


> I have this pair of Pakistani Highflyers. Both are black and white. And they have produced pure white pigeons, 75% brown pigeons, 50% white 50% brown, grey, black, grizzle's, everything :| lol...


The fact that they are black and white tells you that they are both spread factor birds but only heterozygous ones. This means that they can also produce blue. Black is just spread blue.

The fact that they have produced pure whites probably means that they both carry recessive white but it could mean that they are both grizzled and pied and sometimes whites will come from this.

The brown comes from dad as he is split for brown. The browns will all be hens.

Without more info, we know that at least one is grizzle which appears as mottle when they have spread factor. Both could be heterozygous grizzles and will produce grizzled, mottled and non grizzle birds. This combination would also produce stork marked birds.

They can get alot more complicated as both could have carried recessive red, dad could have been split for dilute, reduced among other things. Some birds have many things hidden and only come out when the right combination emerges. I'm not saying that your birds have any of these other genes as they likely do not or you'd have seen them by now but it really can get pretty complicated.

Bill


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Actually they had 2 brown pigeons. 1 male 1 female. And they give all colours of pigeons, the hen, wasn't mine. I was flying my pigeons a few years ago and she just joined them out of no where lol.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Then your brown is probably recessive red*

Genetic brown comes from the males unless the females are brown themselves. They don't produce brown males in this type of mating. It's a color that is somewhat of a misnomer and looks more gray than brown unless they are spread brown which does look brown. What we would call brown by color is usually recessive red or recessive yellow. There is also ash red and ash yellow which are shades of brown but they don't come from black. Sometimes genetic terms are alittle misleading and hard to understand even for me and I've been studying them for a long time.

Bill


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

*White is not a true color*

White is not a true color, it is an expression that allows the absence of pigment in the feather.
All whites have a base color behind that expression. I don't breed whites now, but have found that the base color of whites can be produced by mating to various colors. I have mated white to spread blue (Black) and produced a wide variety of colors, and white to red which did the same.
Occasionally, a pair of whites will have babies that are short downed or practically naked which indicates the dilute factor. Also, a pair of whites will occasionally produce a bird of the base color behind the whites, whether the offspring be splashed or solidly colored.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*This is true*

White can be anything. What comes out of them depends on what is behind them. They could be pied, can have any pattern gene, could be opal or just about anything else that you can think of. This is especially true in recessive white and I don't think that two of them will ever produce anything but recessive white offspring.

Most white pigeons used to be homozygous ash red grizzles that were bred together until they become pure whites. These birds can produce mismarks or colored feathers. Still, there were many birds like this that produced white offspring all the time and many were used for food, such as Utility Kings.

Today, recessive white has found it's way to many breeds of pigeons. I have them in Figuritas. 30 or 40 years ago, recessive white was a barely understood newcomer.

Bill


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