# New ...with injured feral



## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Hi Folks! 

I just registered today cuz I have a new Zoo resident as of yesterday morning... a feral pigeon with an "injured" left wing. 

The short version of the story... I walked into my local Petco to get supplies for my current Zoo members. Everyone knows me here.. I take some of their rehab cases, occasionally.... and I know a few of them. So, the "long faces" caused me to inquire and sure enough... they have a "rescue". I didn't get the full story on how the pigeon got to them, but I was told that it had a compound fracture... the rehabbers would only accept it to EUTH it... and that no one would take it amongst the store staff. Soooo... Aminah to the rescue, I guess. 

Now, I have the bird. I've named him, WoHi ...umm, "pigeon" in Cherokee. I called around for vets to even LOOK at him... mine won't... and found one that may, but he's on vacation until tomorrow. Yeah. So, I attempted to bind the bad wing with vet gauze and stabilize him the best I can. 

Three times since yesterday afternoon, WoHi has removed or badly tampered with his binding. He pulls it off, unravels the gauze, or just loosens it enough to get his wing free. He's determined, if nothing else.  

Sooo... I've contacted Rena, joined the 911 Pigeon Alert group and now I'm here. The guy seems to be stable regarding general health... he's eating and going poo, drinking some, alert and very curious about me... but his wing is a mystery to me. He isn't dragging it all the time, but he can't fly. The elbow is swollen, but I don't see any bones nor blood. 


Any suggestions, help, advice... anything.... we're open to it. I'm actually waiting to hear from someone now, but it could take some time. 

Thanks so much!
~Aminah


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Swollen elbow, huh? Feel the joint and see if it feels sound, but enlarged. There are arthritic processes that they can get from things like Paratyphoid (actually a Salmonellosis from mouse crap) that will swell a wing joint up. In such cases, the best thing that you can do is Ciprofloxacin or Enrofloxacin at 15 mg/kg, PO, BID for as long as it takes to reduce the symptoms.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Tell you what, though: go here and study the drawings and the bird and then describe exactly which bones and joint thereof seem to be affected:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Aminah,

Sometimes pigeons are badly bruised and have a wing swelling that prevents them from flying. A number of my rescues were like that when I found them and recovered the ability to fly after at least three weeks.

The vet might be able to establish whether the wing is bruised or broken, or whether the swelling is a result of paratyphoid.

I had the same trouble that you had when I trid to immobilize wings and the vet's immobilisation really upset the pigeon. Eventually I found it best to wrap a single thickness of micropore bandage round the pigeon's body and wing, not too tight because that can cause suffocation but not too loose either.

Cynthia


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

AneesasMuse said:


> Hi Folks!
> 
> I just registered today cuz I have a new Zoo resident as of yesterday morning... a feral pigeon with an "injured" left wing.
> 
> ...



I saw that you had posted on 911 Pigeon Alert. I then started looking at our rehab lists, here AND on 911 and didn't see anyone really close to you. At 911 we mostly deal with banded birds, although we help with ferals if one is reported to us. Most of our banded birds are either returned to the owner or are adopted by another fancier. It's pretty hard and unlikely that you'll find an actual pigeon fancier that will be willing to take a feral, much less one that is injured. You've actually come to the best place on the planet as far as I'm concerned to get all the help that you would need. 
I didn't take your case, as I was waiting to see if someone in CA (I'm in VA) would pick it up. 
If I had taken it, I would have directed you here first thing. Don't get any better than the folks here. 
I'll actually go to the database now and take the case. If you are comfortable dealing with this bird yourself, then we can close the case on 911 Pigeon Alert.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Thanks! 

I looked at the drawings and they are a little deceiving. I can only describe the joint... I don't have x-rays.. and the bird is not that cooperative with palpating him continuously. 

A wildlife rehab person said, "it's the elbow joint", but she was on the phone... so I don't know. When I stretch the wing out, it seems to be the first joint after the one attaching the wing to the body.. between humerus and ulna/radius... but when I look at the drawings, it's the joint after the ulna/radius, as that's the only one bending in that direction. 

I'm sorry I can't be more accurate in my description. I'm frustrated and furious with "so called" wildlife rehab folks and vets, in general... and yeah! Anyhow... I'm trying to do what I can and be patient and wait. 

Thanks!


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Lovebirds.. yes, thank you so much! I am willing to deal with WoHi myself. I just need someone to mentor me through it, I guess. If he has to stay here... he has to. It's not like I don't have a house full of "folks" already... what's one more? 

~Aminah


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, when you look at the bird from the side, there is the forward curve (when the wings are folded) that you tend to see if it's not covered by feathers. That joint is up by the shoulders and is anatomically the same as the wrist in us. The true elbow is nearer to the tail by about an inch and a half. You can only really feel about the back half of the humerus as the front half is well-encased in musculature.

So, is it the portion that's up front by the shoulders (the wrist) or the part that's somewhat back and up by the flat of the back when the wing is folded (versus being down near the chest)?

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

I am following this page's suggestions on wrapping the wing, but he still pulls it off eventually. 

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/brokenwing.html

The pic in this link: 

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/brokenwing1.jpg

...may help you understand where the injury is better... I don't know. If you look where the right index finger is on the pigeon's wing.. in that pic... that is exactly where the swelling is on WoHi's left wing.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, so, inside, forward and close to the front of the chest. Well, that'd be the carpometacarpus area. That would probably mean that he stands a pretty good chance of future flight. That said, it's easiest to just tape the wingtip to the tail feathers. You can just use masking tape and go around both of them (all tail feathers as a clump and the primary flight feathers of the wing at that point--close to the base of the tail) after making sure that the wingtips are aligned. That'll keep that wing from drooping for a week or two and then you can take it off and see how he does.

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Thank you, Pidgey! I apologize for my fumbles... I'm nearly in tears here. 

So, masking tape will not hurt WoHi in any way and is better than the "vet gauze" for wrapping him? 

Should I put him on Baytril now? or should I just wait and see how he does? The Baytril would be for any underlying things he may have... and just in case I have to keep him here should he not recover flight. I have been careful not to cross contaminate with my other critters (rats, geckos, tortoise, etc.) ...washing up and avoiding contact until I can fully shower and change clothes, keeping WoHi in the garage away from everyone, and so on. Is there anything else I should do? Can you recommend a good mite treatment for the bird, so I don't have to give my ratties another treatment before they're due? 

Thanks again!
~Aminah


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, masking tape IS sticky but it has the benefit of working pretty well. When it come time to take it off, you hold the tape and pull the feathers away from it. That works for me just fine. I've tried the other ways, too, and haven't had much luck with the birds who just can't seem to leave it alone. Some are just like that.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As far as the Baytril goes... I'd probably put him on it because you don't know about the joint without an X-Ray. You could make a judgement call based on the kind of blood that it had leaked, if it had leaked any. With Paratyphoid, they usually ooze some blood mixed with synovial fluid, which is fairly clear. It doesn't make a hard clot like regular blood does. Real blood mixed with feathers makes a scab that's three or four times as tough as the ones on us. You'd said they'd thought it was a "compound fracture" and that would mean that there should be some blood. However, I suppose a lot of folks think that the "compound" in that phrase means broken in more than one place when it actually means a protruding bone.

Baytril: 15 mg/kg, PO, BID. What kind do you have?

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

I have the 10% Baytril from www.allbirdproducts.com or similar... I can't recall. 

The bottle has the following info: 
Cure: 2 ml per quart of water for 10 days
or 
Preventative: 1 ml per quart of water for 8-10 days

It says it's for Cholera, E-Coli, Paratyphoid, Mycoplasmosen, Severe Respiratory Infections. (I use it for Myco flare ups with my rattie kids)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Let's assume a regular sized pigeon at ~350 grams, or 0.35 kg. That means 0.35*15=5.25 mg, twice daily. At the 10% solution, that's 52.5 microliters. If you've got a 1 milliliter syringe, that would be one-half of the 1/10th mark. If you've got smaller syringes like the 1/2 milliliter (ml; cc; same thing) or even a 3/10ths milliliter (small insulin syringe) syringe, then it's a lot easier to meter out.

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Heh... I've got just about all of those sizes here  With my crew, ..err, ZOO... you could need any one or all of them in one situation. 

So... 0.05ml of Baytril twice a day? ...now, how do I get it in him? Orally, I mean? I have all these syringes withOUT the needles and I'm assuming that putting this in his water and HOPING that he drinks it all is not likely to be very successful.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

I've been reading some more on this site and following links... and found this:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon1.html

If I will need to crop medicate WoHi, I need to run out and get some tubing before the stores close. Anyone know? Pidgey? or anyone?

Thanks!

Oh.. this is a wonderful site and community, btw. Very impressive! 


~Aminah


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If you are comfortable with tube feeding, it is my prefered method for feeding, but for administering medications a syringe will do.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, medicating Baytril orally with a small syringe is pretty simple. You just hold the bird, open the beak, insert the syringe and squirt it in. That amounts to about one to two drops. About the only differences in style amount to more or less medication getting on the tongue where the bird can taste it. And they don't have many taste buds.

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay... simple enough... yey! *wipesnervousperspirationfrombrow* "phewww!"

Thanks again! 


I guess I'm just used to squirmy, trickster rattie kids  so I wasn't sure if I needed to make absolutely SURE it went down. Heh!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's a lot easier to medicate these guys than rats... or just about anything else.

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Success!! I got pecked, but he got his first dose of Baytril, too!! LOL


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi AneesasMuse,

Dr. Schuckman in Castro Valley truly loves pigeons and will not euthanize them
in cases of broken wings. In order for him to euthanize, there has to be a serious quality of life issue going on. 

He'll x-ray and treat at no charge for ferals. His information can be found in 
this link from the Resource section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8817

fp


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Hi feralpigeon,

Yesss!! This is the "vet on vacation" that I've been waiting for. I was told he'll be in this afternoon, so we're off to see him. _Edit:_ So.. we have an appt. at 3pm today. Great! I'll update later....

WoHi tried to do a one wing flight around my garage today.. heh! He's strong and healthy, it seems. I'm glad he's showing some fiesty'ness, but I am being very careful with him, as well. He's just ornery about my handling and medicating him.

Thanks so much!
~Aminah


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

I just informed WoHi that he'll be going for another car ride and have a visit with yet another poking and prodding "human"...










"Wha?!... "


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aminah, he is gorgeous! Good luck at the vet's.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Great looking bird there, thanks for all your help.

You are in a good location to find a pigeon-friendly vet.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm back from the Vet... but WoHi had to stay behind. 

His break was very serious... humerus broken in 2 places and his "wrist" joint was exposed completely underneath all the matted feathers that I could not decipher with my untrained eyes. 

Dr. Shuchman first opted for treating the open wound on his "wrist" and waiting to see if it would close and heal properly, but then he discovered the other breaks and said WoHi will need his entire left wing amputated. 

Sooo.. I'll call back on Monday to see if he's ready to come back "home". He will have to stay here with us from now on.  '

I was really hoping that it was just a bruise or an infection that would heal and allow him to regain flight, but I am fine with having the prospect of a permanent pigeon friend here at my Zoo. I just hope WoHi will be okay. 

Thanks Everyone!

~Aminah


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

AneesasMuse said:


> I'm back from the Vet... but WoHi had to stay behind.
> 
> His break was very serious... humerus broken in 2 places and his "wrist" joint was exposed completely underneath all the matted feathers that I could not decipher with my untrained eyes.
> 
> ...


That is too bad about the wing, BUT.....it's good that he has a forever home with you. There a few members here who have flightless birds. Good luck with him. We'll be watching for updates.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Poor baby  

I'm glad he'll have a forever home with you though. Keep us posted on his progress. Thoughts and prayers for speed recovery for WoHi.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

ummm... I'm apparently more upset about this than I figured... crying and all that..

...do you guys with more experience think he'll pull through this and be okay? I feel terrible! Why is it gonna take until Monday for me to know anything? Is that for recovery time? 

Sorry... just a little soft when it comes to critters. I've actually been misty and teary since I walked to the parking lot with his empty carrier. 

Is there some place I can start reading up on amputee pigeons?


Thanks!
~Aminah


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Aminah!

I have been following your thread with great interest! I have a pigeon with HALF his wing amputated. He lives with me and 3 cats in a 1 bdrm apartment and rules us ALL with an iron beak!

I let Squeaks out and about among my cats but keep an eye open. He has his 29"L x 21"W x 23" H cage as home at night and when I'm out and about.

His full story is in our STORY section.

We wish you and WoHi THE BEST and look forward to reading about his adventures in his new home! You BOTH ARE WINNERS!!

Hugs

Shi & Squeaks


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

While I did not have to leave Squeaks AT the Vets, he took WEEKS to heal and you can see why in his story.

Go to the story section, *NOT* the story AND picture sharing section. We are on page 4 (last page?) as his story was written a few years ago!

Don't give up hope! Squeaks' wing was very badly broken too...I think he was hit by a car!

HANG IN THERE!!! Can you call to get updates? Your Vet sounds like a very good one...

We are all pulling for WoHi !!!

SENDING LOVE, HUGS AND HEALING THOUGHTS

Shi & Squeaks


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Ditto to everything Shi and Squeaks wrote*

I sure understand how you feel. Nothing worse than coming back without a little sweetie. It sounds like he's at a great vet who really cares, and with the wing as bad as it was, it sounds like the best possible chance for a happy recovery. 

Cry all you want, we all understand. 

Feather hugs,

Mary


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, shoot! It didn't sound that bad at first. I've got one that had a humerus that bad that's just had to heal the hard way (his wing's been taped up for two or three months) and he's out in the loft now. He can't fly and I doubt he ever will, but he can raise that wing up. The rest of his wing was a mess, too, all the way down.

There are a few here who have had to have that particular operation. There's another story for you about a dove in Canada that got its wing ripped off by some wild animal. It's worth your time to read it for comfort at this point:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16607

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Aminah,
It's very sad but given the injury, I'd say he's a darn lucky bird to have been placed in your path. Someone was looking out for that bird.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Aminah, 

You might as well read this one, too:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/pigeons/BerniePijStory.html

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Thank you, Everyone! Pidgey, you are a Godsend!! Sitting here reading is keeping me occupied enough not to just bawl and squawl... which is a blessing of itself.

I will call first thing in the morning and try to get some of my questions answered. I think the "not knowing" is just what's really bothering me. Monday seems like a lifetime away and I'll surely worry myself into a good frazzle by then... from not knowing anything. 

Once I'm sure WoHi is out of danger and recovering nicely, I'll be looking for mini-mini loft plans. I've decided to only put a topper on the backyard enclosure ...7' x 33' space with a 2' fence surrounding it... that he will share with my rescued Red Foot tortoise, Joob. I can just expand the posts to 8' heights and enclose that all the way around and over. That should be adequate space for a pigeon to wander around in, when not in the house. (Supervised, of course!)

Anyhow... I'm off to read some more and hopefully I can sleep a bit, in awhile. 

Thank you all so much!!
~Aminah


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

WoHi is getting more antibiotics for his infection and has not had surgery yet. I was told he should have surgery by Monday and I can pick him up shortly after he's stable. The receptionist at Dr. Shuchman's clinic leaves a LOT to be desired, but I will be calling daily for status. 

I'm worried and he's my "baby" now, so I feel justified.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aminah, it is your right to call about him every day. I sometimes call 2 or more times a day if we have to leave one. I think it makes the staff understand that this pigeon is important to you.

This may be a bad thing to say but if I had to choose between having a pigeon's wing removed versus a leg, I would opt for the wing any day. I think WoHi will adapt well. He should be able to hop onto a brick or a very low perch with no problems.

Try not to worry. It sounds like this vet is very good.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> This may be a bad thing to say but if I had to choose between having a pigeon's wing removed versus a leg, I would opt for the wing any day.


I agree, especially if the bird will be protected for the rest of its life. Birds w/one leg, especially with little or no stump left have to work very hard just to stay upright. The energy cost (for the bird) is high. 

Keep that phone line hot. The receptionist sounds like she needs to practice her "customer relations" skills anyway!


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay... a BIG relief now!! I talked to a different person at this clinic.. still not the Vet... and she was very nice and answered my questions pleasantly and skillfully  

Several people have told me that his surgery would be done without any anesthesia  which just added to my worries and horror of him being in this strange clinic with a Vet I don't know. Today, I was assured by the young lady that this is just not so... WoHi will definitely be "gassed" for his amputation procedure. "phewww!" 

He's still getting antibiotics for his pretty serious infection, so surgery is not likely to happen until next week. She told me it is common for birds with this level of infection to perish quickly once the ab's are started... not the case with Mr. WoHi. She said he's standing strong in his little hospital cube... eating, drinking and going plenty of POO. Thank goodness!!

Thank you all for being so supportive and informative!! I am on a few forums specifically related to my various Zoo members, and this is "hands down" the friendliest, most compassionate cyber community I have ever encountered! I get misty just from the "presence" here... and the stories are awesome!

Thank you!


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Glad for the update. They have to be careful with the aneth, okay, the gas (those big words  ). Please keep us posted. You know we're all rooting for WoHi and you


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aminah, I'm glad you were able to talk to someone knowledgeable and that you feel better about everything now.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Glad to hear the news, I have a "one-winged wonder" bird myself-due to an injury, and he can out run any of my two winged guys. He has adapted very well and does sit on a low perch. I have a special affection for him and he enjoys his outings walking....not being a skywalker anymore.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

I just spoke with the imbeciles at Dr. Shuchman's office. I cannot get a straight answer from any of them, regarding WoHi's status. 

The first male that answered the phone told me he couldn't be sure whether WoHi has been treated by the vet yet... so I suggested that perhaps if he LOOKED at him, he could decipher whether or not he had one or two wings still. This caused him to hang up on me. 

When I called back, he started with the gruff, perturbed tone and antics... a child probably younger than my children... and he put me on "eternity hold". Mind you, this is a business they are running.

While on "eternity hold", I called from my cell phone, hoping to get a different person.... which I did.. and he immediately starts with the berating... "PAYING customers get first priority! We don't do charity cases first come first serve... blah blah blah.. " I got tired of listening and hung up...

..which is when the young lady.... apparently the only one there with some skill and knowledge.. picked up the "eternity hold" line. She apologized for their behaviour and said she would definitely leave a message for Dr. Shuchman when he returns today. He's never in the office, it seems. 

I don't feel comfortable about this situation at all, at this point! I don't tolerate the manner I was treated when I was physically IN the office last week... but I overlooked it because this bird needs help. I don't tolerate ignorant, racist or prejudiced people in the least and I don't like this. I really, really don't! 

I apologize for ranting here, but I am beyond PO'd at this very moment. Does anyone know of another vet that will see my pigeon? I have exhausted my resources here. Please?

..very distraught, Aminah


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Aminah, 
I'm sorry you were treated poorly. Honestly, I wouild be upset too.
Stop... breathe... calm down. The important thing is that the bird get the care it needs and Feral Pigeon appreciates DR. Shuchman's respect of pigeons. That he would do this at no cost is a very good thing. Really, a very good thing.
Not to excuse rude behavior in any way but, Mondays are always busy at any business with phones ringing off the hock and such.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm sorry, but they have been rude to me on a daily basis since last Wednesday... in person and on the phone... so there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for this. On another note... I have not been assured that this whole procedure will be "at no cost to me". I will know this AFTER WoHi gets some treatment.. if he ever gets any. 

For whomever's sake, we live in the SF Bay Area with a vastly diverse population... people need to broaden their minds and horizons a wee bit!


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Customer service? a thing of the past so it feels some days*

Boy, do I ever second what you wrote. It seems that curtesy is fast going the way of the dodo. 

There's a reason why society has good manners. They may mean "nothing" in the end to the person, business, or entity -- but believe me, it means everything. You see this new style of no manners everywhere, rude jokes, double entrendres on kids' movies and shows, common coarse words used in casual everyday conversation. 
Why? Have we just become lazy and confrontive? It always seems that people don't go out of their way or even slow down to assist and help others. 

We all are too self-absorbed and me-centered. The cell phone commercials are perfect examples (rude child verbally texting mom about the text messaging child is doing, and holding 2nd jobs to afford the pleasures of "instant communications") -- and that is passed off as humor. 

We immediately get our hackles raised if someone dare offer a different opinion from ours or doesn't make just the right "PC" word choice, whether it's a discussion about the "in" items to buy (oh, so critical) or something of heavier real-world weight.

I'd take my custom elsewhere if possible -- but first, let the good doctor have an opportunity to make things right by you. He needs to know how his staff is treating people. He may be completely unaware of how the staff (paid or not) are handling His clients. You may be a charity case, but regardless, you have the ability to tell many many others about the quality of the customer service that the people representing him are doing. It is a disservice to him to have people like that representing his good name. A good name is all we have in this world, and it should be prized above all else. Somehow, I think if he knew what his staff was doing, he would make corrections.

A jerk is a jerk, no matter the culture or language, and we have too long allowed people with a jerky attitude be in control of the social graces of so much of the world. 

We used to recommend a particular custom shop, until a mistake was made. It wasn't the fact that a mistake was made, it was the attitude and the written response we received. "A customer is right unless the customer was wrong". We never gave our business to this company again. Even if we were in the wrong, there was no attempt to work with us to make a satisfactory outcome for both of us. Lose-lose on both ends.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Well... I just talked to Dr. Shuchman himself, a few minutes ago. He was very unaware of his staff's treatment toward me and he apologized numerous times. He also assured me that he would deal with them concerning this attitude and behaviour. 

I did elaborate on the one young lady's superior conduct towards me and he seemed grateful enough. Poor guy. 

After speaking with him and hearing his own outlook on the specific prejudiced attitude that I received, I am clear that he has experienced this very same treatment in his lifetime and knew exactly my pain and anger. 

Dr. Shuchman is a very nice man... surrounded by a not so nice staff, unfortunately. Hopefully, today's events will change that. 



As for Mr. WoHi.. he may get his surgery today, if the Vet can fit him in. If not, he assured me he would have it tomorrow, Tuesday. WoHi is still hanging in there.. he's strong and sitting/standing on his perch. He's eating and drinking and having a healthy POO. 

I'm much calmer now.. no more tears... and will be finishing up the preparations for WoHi's "homecoming".


Thank you all, so very much!! I apologize for ranting here, but I feel you all understand far better than anyone that isn't fond of a pigeon, in the first place. Thank you!

~Aminah


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I'll bet that Dr. Shuchman is grateful (but really PO'ed about the fact that he even has to do some remedial education) that you told him about the customer service from his staff. Whether he is just a beginner or the most-sought after vet in the universe, if he cares about his business and his customers, then input from customers, bad and good is welcomed. I'm glad you pointed out the one person that gave you good service. It's probably more important to offer positives as well as negatives and I bet you made one young lady's day better.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Aminah,

I'm glad to hear things are working out, nothing is more unnerving then NOT getting any response, I can imagine how frustrating that was.

Please do keep us updated.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Aminah.
I'm glad you had the chance to speak personally with Dr. Shuchman. From the sounds of it,I didn"t think he knew what was going on out front.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Aminah and I spoke around lunch and I need to explain that the vets
I either use or recommend here are individually based dependant on what
is wrong with the bird. I would not have recommended this bird to Wildcare
as if not releasable at Wildcare then they would put this bird down. They are
fine w/other situations and I would use them in other instances.

There is no comparison for Avian Medicine where Dr. Brian Speers is 
concerned but one does need to be ready to fork out some cash.
All of the vets I use here use anesthesia and I wouldn't recommend
if I thought inhumane in provided services. Some of the staff in more than
one instance could use "counseling", but I'm mainly concerned w/what 
is happening w/the pij and sometimes don't consider that part. Just all
part of the unfortunate healthcare system for our wildlife that one day I 
know we all hope will change.

I'm sorry about any bad feelings/responses that were experienced and
hope that Dr. Shuckman is able to turn that around. I know that he 
does alot of work for wildlife in the area and is a very caring soul.

I'm sure that Aminah and I will be in touch in the future around
the all encompassing topic of 'pigeon care', lol.....

fp


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## roy-me-boy (Dec 28, 2006)

I do Hope everything turns out good in the end Aminah


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Aminah, please do not feel you have to apologize for your "venting." I understand completely your frustration and anger with the way you were treated. Thank goodness the Dr. is such a caring person. 

Some people are not meant to work with the public. Others have "off" days and take their problems out on the clients. Either, of course, is unacceptable!

I have worked with the public my whole working career, including in a Vet's office. Some of the best advice I ever heard about speaking on the phone, is to _smile_. The "tone" of voice can be changed dramatically.

Yes, Aminah, do keep us updated about WoHi! Squeaks and I are sending all our HEALING THOUGHTS for positive outcomes and updates!  

Love and Hugs

Shi & Squeaks


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Thank you sooo much! 

WoHi is on the "board" for surgery today... they were there 'til 9pm doing surgeries last night, so he got bumped to today. The "nice kid" said she put him on the "board" herself, this morning. 

So... I wait. 

I did request that Dr. Shuchman call me right away. Also, I asked if I can bring him home soon after his procedure, so I can admin his meds myself and look after him here. It's quiet and I can spoil him better from here 


....maybe if I go pigeon shopping, it will distract me from the torturous waiting!  


~Aminah


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

All that waiting . . . Gotta be so hard. I hope every little thing goes well and that you will soon have a one-winged healthy pigeon to brighten up your days.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Best of luck and please let us know how it goes.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Aminah, all of you are in my thoughts and prayers.

fp


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay... never EVER say "I'm going pigeon shopping" without clarifying to WHO it concerns that you didn't mean you needed ANOTHER pigeon  

I didn't even make it to the "pigeon shopping" store ...and someone hopped across my path with a very nasty foot injury. Did I leave him there, you ask? Are you kidding me!! 

LOL!!!

I have risked being evicted by my own loving hubby... and the bird is in my garage settling down, so I can have a really good look at his foot. 


The funny part was getting the Safeway folks to go in the loading zone with me to get Mr. Bird. You all can imagine the looks of "WTH?" and "why on earth?" and "this must be a trick..." (Ironically, after being cursed at by some drunk lady IN the store... for merely saying, "Excuse me".... this bird has cheered me up)

I got my groceries... I definitely got my quota for "pigeon shopping" done.. and now I have to make dinner. I'll try to get pics of Mr. Bird after dinner. He should be settled a little by then and I will have time to figure out what to do next. Heh! Does lasagna, nice salad and fresh bread sound like a good "distraction dinner" ? 


Am I a pigeon magnet now? You guys didn't warn me about this 'multiple bird in my life' thing... shame on you!!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oh, no, Aminah.....it's a slippery slope  . All I can say is there's
lots of work out there for you, lol. Bless you for blowing off your
"pigeon shopping" in favor of rescuing another! Will be looking 
forward to seeing the pics of Twinkle Toes....

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Yep, once a pigeon person, ALWAYS a pigeon person! VERY ADDICTIVE!!

Good luck with your new one...

UPDATES for us will be coming soon, I'm sure!  

Love Hugs and Scritches!

Shi & Squeaks


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Well... Dr. Shuchman just called me... at 8:55pm ..he's still at his clinic  He said that he's been watching WoHi's progress very closely and the humerus breaks have been surely healing with the type of wrap he has on him.... and.. the open wound over his "wrist" is closing up nicely. 

This is FANTASTIC news!!! WoHi may... just maybe..... be able to keep his wing after all. However, he will never fly with it being so badly damaged. 

I can pick up my buddy in the morning, after the "nice kid" checks him out and calls me to give me a status report. Dr. Shuchman will not be in again until the end of the week. 

Soooo.. I'm VERY excited and have the "nesting" instinct thing going on just like when we're expecting a new baby (human, I mean). I need to set up his hospital digs and get more food and his vitamins and a super comfy nest box for him and... 

See... this is the type of "pigeon shopping" I meant to do today, but SOMEONE had a different plan obviously.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's great news, Aminah. You'll have to keep close eye on him/her when the
wraps are off to make sure his wing isn't dragging and being a problem for
h/her when walking around....it should be mostly obvious though.

Dr. Shuchman will keep a pij in the "hospital" area of the office for extended
periods which is one of the good things about giving him a pij for treatment.
He will give them needed time to self-mend instead of being in a hurry to
euthanize. I'm glad your buddy is coming home soon....don't wait too 
long for the call from your favorite "office boy"  

How is your other pij coming along?
We have numerous threads on string foot injuries and if you type it into 
the above site search engine, you'll come up w/a good number of informative
threads. Here are a couple to get started with:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19910

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19908&highlight=string+foot

Thanks so much for becoming a "willing pigeon magnet", I don't think you
will be sorry, they are a very thankful lot and bring many special moments
to their human friends.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

SUCH EXCITING NEWS!

Many thanks for letting us know!

We will be looking forward to healing updates, for sure!

You having a baby?????

Shi & Squeaks


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Heh! Shi, I had my "babies" over 20 years ago... it will soon be their turns to have babies 

I sound like a broken record, but Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!! You've been so supportive and I'm so grateful. I usually cook something yummy to show my gratitude to kind folks, but some of you are just too far away. I hope all of my gushing and expressions of thanks will suffice for now. 

I took some pics of Twinkle Toes.. hehehe.... and he's quieted down for the night. I hate to bother him anymore, so I'll wait 'til morning to mess around with his foot and give him a twice over. His wings seemed sound enough, but he didn't fly away when I threw my overgarment over him... and missed.  I just want to be sure. His right foot is swollen and bloody a tiny bit on the ankle, but leg is sound too. 

Now, if I can just get my silly software to cooperate with my camera... I'll upload the pics. (I updated my Adobe reader yesterday and it bumped my HP software and tries to read my camera... NOT! ..so I'm uninstalling it right now) I can't wait to show you this fella, or gal... just a beautiful soft brown over white and speckles around the neck area and... oh WOW!! He or she reminds me of a very artistic cappuchino. 

Pics soon.. I hope!


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay... small hassle getting that Adobe thing off, but done... 

Pics?

Mr. Bird... err, Twinkle Toes or?









The fwashy fing already... pweease lady! 









Okay, fine! ..but I'm really exhausted..









Would you mind terribly ...departing my space and turning off dat darn light?


This is very, very temporary for my friend.... everything in the carrier! I'll assess his situation tomorrow morning, bright and early, and get him into some better digs. I'm really tempted to go and wake him up and look at his foot, but I'll let him rest tonight. 

I'll get some more pics tomorrow... of the actual foot... well, I'll TRY! 

Night everyone! Thank you!!

~Aminah


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is a very beautiful pigeon. I love his confy set up.
I don't like his "sleepy" look though. Is he eating, drinking and pooping?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for helping this needy one, and sharing the pic. 

Yeah, I have to agree with Reti, there may be something more going on here then meets the eye.

Be sure to keep this little patient isolated from your other "baby" when he gets home.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Aminah,

Just now came across this thread. Glad things are working out. *WoHi* and *Twinkle Toes* will have you wrapped around their tiniest toes in no time flat! Something about pigeons....

I have had a flightless female pigeon since March 20th. Then, at rescue, low weight, no tail feathers, back feathers missing, many left wing feathers missing, right wing looked great but was paralyzed. X-ray revealed no broken bones; no dislocation. Vet said perhaps soft tissue damage, nerve complications, maybe would fly in two weeks, or not. Now, she looks great, she can lift right wing to shoulder height, but still unable to fly. 

Named him/her "*Osk-gurr*" since he/she "gurred" whenever I came near. "Gurr" taken from a two-year-old magazine article on German lady who had rescued a blind pigeon, *Johannes*, who "gurred." We recently contacted this lady; she has a large aviary and will be taking our pigeon in the next week or so, since we have a one-room apartment in Cologne and can't have pigeons.

Our rescued-as-a-baby and hand-raised male pigeon *Wieteke* previously raised four chicks in our place with his feral mate *Mamieke*, but now he lives on the street and visits daily for food, and gets attention whether he likes it or not. Osk-gurr intruded upon his territory, and he wanted her out of her small pet carrier, and gone. I protected her from him. Eventually the situation changed. Wieteke took advantage of a situation he wasn't allowed to have with Mamieke, and he and Osk-gurr paired and had a nest on some shoes, and two eggs. Considered sending the both of them to the new location, a hundred kilometers away, but didn't know if that would work with Wieteke. Moved nest with eggs to atelier/art studio nearby. Osk-gurr stayed off the eggs most of the time, Wieteke sat on them the third day, but the eggs were soon abandoned. Wieteke didn't like the atelier, and came back to defend his original territory. He's very much a city pigeon. 

Early on, Osk-gurr tipped over once or twice and couldn't upright herself. If she wedged into a corner or such, evading me, she couldn't maneuver and was immobilized. I was anxious about her getting upside-down for an extended period of time, during which she might aspirate the contents of her crop. She didn't seem to drink much, but it could still happen.

I did some training sessions with her. Took her to the bathroom where I could corner her easily, since she was quick on her feet (after a couple of weeks with us, we had her on the upstairs neighbor's terrace for some sun, and she jumped off the terrace to the sidewalk five or six meters, or twenty feet, below. I was shocked!). The upside-down recovery training sessions made me very popular with her; also the liquid vitamin and medicine applications were not taken too kindly. I wouldn't like to be fed that way either. I use a syringe with a baby bird feeding needle (bulbous tip on end) or a plastic 3 ml pipette (available in many places, also arts & crafts shops) which I re-use until they come apart at the seams. 

About the unfriendly people:

I worked in credit approval and bill collecting (by phone and in person, and did some repossessing) for General Electric Credit Corporation for a few years in the 1970s after college, and became used to (immune, actually) to people yelling at me and slamming down the phone, etc. Usually after being hung up on, I would wait a minute or so, then re-dial. Usually the person had calmed down and (surprisingly) would apologize for his verbal abuse and anger, which I shrugged off, and we made arrangements for payment and such. Sometimes I was lied to (I was gullible, perhaps, usually assumed and expected the best from people) and he had a short reprieve until the next time I called. I learned to not take such things personally. They were surprised, sometimes, when I called, sometimes fearful, but generally just angry about their situation, not at me personally. Some of the women in the office who couldn't take too much yelling asked me to handle the calls to certain individuals. 

People sometimes take out their anger on you. They shouldn't, but it happens. Something is causing that anger. They probably don't consciously choose to be aggravated. Our daily lives, our society, the pressures we allow to happen, are not always good for us. Sometimes we are too well-informed about the news, about too much of the many bad things happening around us. We want to be able to be informed about a bad situation if it involves us or someone we know well, but oftentimes we are over-informed. Kids see so many horror films and crimis on TV that it seems to be almost a normal thing to take your Uzi submachine gun or shotgun or whatever and go to your high school and take it out on whomever you think has insulted you or pestered you that day. And the hazing and hateful behavior teens exert and bring to bear on their peers seems normal. Jocks versus nerds. And so on. When I read about the latest shooting rampage, I am surprised that others are so shocked and dismayed by what has happened. You put a fire under the pot, it will boil. You clamp the lid down tight, and sooner or later it will pop off. There should be no surprise about the pot over-boiling or the lid popping off. Surely both are undesirable. The focus should be on the fire, the stress: should it be there, or was it inappropriately high? Who was watching the fire? We sell matches, but don't want fires. We sell bigger matches, blowtorches, sell and buy flame-retardant clothing and fireproof outfits, but still lament the fires. We want the jobs and profits from making and selling bigger and better and more weapons, and someone, somewhere, eventually cries and laments. We all suffer. Kill your enemy, and someone somewhere has lost a customer, if not a friend, relative, or acquaintance. Weird, but true: kill a psychopath or sociopath, and some psychiatrist has lost a potential patient. Better that a person never become a sociopath or psychopath. 

Yesterday my wife took down some paintings from her children's book project which she had exhibited at a lady psychiatrist's practice. The doctor looked tired, exhausted, according to my wife. She said that after twenty-plus years of hearing of so many horrible things from her patients, some details of which stayed with her, she felt she needed to slow down in her work and do a bit more painting on her own. Stresses can accumulate, and can overwhelm if not released, vented properly.

Sometimes I read the news, get angry, think about retaliatory measures against the "bad guys," realize that would make me one of those "bad guys," calm down, and nowadays stay a bit less informed about the many, many things happening around me which I cannot directly affect. There are many things I can affect, and in the long run, in a perhaps vague way which some would consider a "philosophical" point of view, I do affect and effect every thing that happens, to the appropriate degree. However, this line of reasoning is somewhat abstruse, and may seem farfetched to some. 

It is weird to have an obligatory (frozen) smile on your face and not to feel that natural smile from within. 

Best of luck with your pigeons.

About your finding PT, Pigeon Talk, a nice place: you are not the first to comment thusly. Is it the people? They seem to run the gamut of experience, represent your everyday citizen, have a variety of experiences. Or does it have more to do with the pigeons? Does a pigeon have a special ability to make us aware of something precious in life, within ourselves? 

Larry


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Reti.. Treesa.... do you think maybe his eyes were droopy cuz he was sound asleep when I went out to get his pics? I'm just curious. I mean, from late afternoon.. when I picked him up... to evening, his eyes were not at all droopy. He is very alert and moves pretty quickly on that one bum foot. 

If the droopy eyes thing indicates something bad in spite of the sleepy time, could either of you please elaborate? 

I'm about to go check on him now and start the poking and prodding and invasive examination ...at least, this is generally how I feel when I go to the doctor.  I hope to get some pics of this foot and get a better idea of what's wrong... with you guys' help, of course. 

Thanks!
~Aminah



P.s. Larry, the news is not your best source for *truthful* information... some of those being portrayed as "bad guys" are farther from anything bad than the reporter telling the story, unfortunately... but I digress... this is certainly NOT the place for this discussion.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay... here's the pics..









Left wing... just the feathers' ends look worn to me.. no breaks or open wounds that I can tell, but the radius/ulna does feel softer (?) yet in one piece... hard to describe









Tail feathers look worn or pulled out... possibly... most are there and just look tattered, I guess 









Right wing... not as bad as the left.. and no breaks or open wounds

to be cont'd


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

cont'd...

























And the foot that he can't really put weight on or walk on... his "palm" is really swollen and not as red (dirt, maybe?)... then that open wound on his ankle... not broken, though. I tried to get all of his individual toes, but he was tired of me by that time. They look intact and all red.. blood supply good... but the distal most toe (not "thumb") has a dark crease around the closest part to the foot itself.. not string or anything, though. 









Mr. Bird looking "not so pleased" with my antics... but not droopy eyed at all.. and as I said before, he can MOVE! He flapped me a few good times before I could get him to settle down... and he can really hobble when he feels the need to. 

Soo... the foot has my attention most cuz it's pretty obvious that it's injured, but what about his wings? Is that normal wear and tear on them or is that part of the reason he hasn't flown off... during my rescue attempt and now, in my garage space? The tail, as well... to me, it looks sparse for feathers, but I am absolutely clueless to birds.... ahem.. 'til last week, but still only know a tiny, tiny bit about this whole deal.

Thanks! I hope the pics help. I can try to get more from any angle you may need... TRY. This is mostly a one woman with only 2 hands, situation... where ideally, 4-6 hands would be most helpful.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Wow, that is certainly one worn and dirty bird. Good job of taking pictures even if only with two hands. Does the bird feel thin?


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Thanks... umm, I can feel a breast bone on him ...? I could also feel WoHi's breast bone when I first got him and he eats like a piglet!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Is his foot hot ?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Ditto what Charis says. 

I have never personally seen a city street pigeon with wing feathers that worn, with the shafts showing like that. Shows lots of abrasion, and maybe he has feather mites also which would add to the wear. I have rarely seen evidence of feather mites either (pinprick holes when you look at a backlit feather, or what appears to be scratches running across a feather). You have to take into account that most city pigeons don't come up to me and request me to inspect their feathers, though.

Pigeon seems to have been living a rough and raggedy life, scrounging to survive (at least it seems so to me, from the pictures). Beautiful pigeon, though. Reminds me of our long lost pigeon Pidgiepoo. 

Re my previous post. I agree with your comment about the news. Sometimes I digress so much I'm surprised when I stumble back across the original topic.

Larry


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

His foot is not hot to me, but I'm not sure he's feeling me or has any real use of his foot. When I wiggle those toes around and squeeze gently, he doesn't fuss.. know what I mean? Like he isn't feeling it, but his leg is sound.
He's holding it up close, though. 

I am concerned about the mites and those feathers.. especially since I have other critters here vulnerable to mites (my rattie kids and WoHi); but also what it means for the poor birdy. I mean, I found him in a parking lot... go figure... and I see how people treat pigeons everyday. He's definitely had a rough time of it. 

Should I start him on some Baytril? or another med? Would it be okay to just wash up that foot and leave it to the air or should I bandage it up a little? I have pure saline wash here, plenty of first aid stuff and safe/gentle tools, etc. 

I haven't seen him go poo yet... just that one little urate and clear liquid this morning. He may be drinking, but it's really hard to judge with a bowl. It looks like he may have ate some small seeds... millet and the like. 

Do you need more foot pics? I can try to get some... 



WoHi is home now... sitting on the sofa, pretty as you please... picking all the "good" seeds out and "dink, dink, dink" at the water bowl. He is CUTE!! And very opinionated... I've been pecked twice for touching his papers (rearranging them back straight) and adjusting his perch.


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay... he seriously is trying to do some damage now with the pecking  He actually makes a "whirrring" sound when he strikes at me with all his might... and I have donned gloves LOL Stinker!

It's MY sofa!!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Have you seen mites on the bird? Looking at the feathers, it's almost like this bird has been in a cage that was way to small and way to dirty and maybe escaped? Even the eyes look like he may have come from "somewhere" and is not just a "street" pigeon. I would expect he does have mites, but I'm not sure that they would cause this kind of damage and this much damage to the feathers. Where ever he came from, he's one lucky little bird. He'll be gorgeous once he's cleaned up. 
And the foot............one of my birds had the same type of injury just a few weeks ago. I even posted about it here. Very strange how a bird can cut the TOP of it's foot. Anyway, I put some anti-biotic cream on his foot twice I think and kept him in a smallish box for a day because that foot wound would open back up if he got to active. After the scap formed, he went back into the loft with the others and he was fine. 
Good luck with this one.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think cleaning up the foot is a good idea. See what it looks like cleaned up.
Feel his crop and see if there is any food in it. If not, I think you will need to feed him. It would also be a good idea to have a look in his mouth to look for any yellow blotches which would indicate canker. Canker is is easy to treat and so are mites.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He's worn those wingtips down somehow. It may be that his feathers are unduly fragile due to mite damage or it may be for some other reason like not being able to fly well due to an arthritic process. I'd probably put him on Baytril for two weeks in case of Paratyphoid and I'd also treat for the mites with a Pyrethrin-based bird lice & mite spray. He's not going to be getting as much lift as he should off of those wings until he molts, though. They could also be old feathers that haven't molted properly due to malnutrition. You could try starting him on Kaytee once a day (a full meal) and see if he all of a sudden starts molting like a big dog.

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay... Baytril, Mite spray... and Kaytee Exact? or something else? 

Can I treat WoHi for mites, just in case? I'm definitely going to treat everyone else here. Heck! I may spray myself LOL I'm starting to get the "heebie jeebies" just thinking of it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, sure, you can treat WoHi, too. And you can spray their cage areas as well. Pyrethrin is a very mild bug poison.

KayTee Exact Hand Feeding Formula is what I normally use although you could probably use any of the really good bird formulas that are geared for seed eaters.

Pidgey


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## AneesasMuse (Jun 19, 2007)

Thank you so much!

I just checked on Twinkle Toes again and there is a massive green and urate'y splat in there.... but no more seeds? So we have poo and a sign of eating... I still don't know for sure if he's drinking, but it seems so, as there are some seed remnants in the water and the level is a little lower.

Okay... off to get some more supplies and get myself some food.


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