# The Release of My In-House Pigeon Pets



## goulian (May 15, 2007)

Hello fellow pigeon folks,

The Pigeon experiment continues. This is a bit of a long post. I hopw it does not bore you.

Now for the rest of the story. An unexpected situation arose which requires that I remove the pigeons from my residence. I did not see it coming and I do not want to get rid of the birds, but I have no choice but to do just that. I thought carefully on the best way to successfully release the birds with as little shock and discomfort as possible. I decided to go with the original plan I thought out prior to even getting the birds just in case the keeping of indoor house pigeons proved to be a bad decision.

So, I had made a carrying cage to use to allow the birds to get some sun outside without being able to run or fly around and be difficult to retrieve. The carrying cage is large enough to aloe the birds to stretch their wings, but still remain portable. This is the cage I used for their step by step release.

First, I waited until the weather was nice enough to not inhibit the release process. When the high temps reached the low seventies and the low temps were no lower than fifty degrees, I put my plan into action. I checked the weather report for the week and found that no rain or cold temps were expected. On 7 April 2008 I brought the birds in the carrying cage to the feeding site. They were not very happy about that. Scared and shaking, they stood motionless while the flock fed all around them. They were scared stiff, and I felt bad for them, but this was the expectations I had for their first excursion from my house to the wide outdoors. After the flock had eaten all the grains around the cage, they went for the ones inside the cage as well. The carrying cage was surrounded completely by pigeons trying to reach the seeds inside the cage. The inhabitants of the cage remained standing as still as the could except for the violent shaking they were experiencing. Finally, I picked up the cage and returned the birds to their pigeon room, where there erupted from the carrying cage in a burst of cooing and dancing that left me no doubt that they were extremely happy to be home.

I repeated this process every morning for five days. I was prepared to do this as long as I thought it was necessary for the in house birds to accept the flock. The transformation was amazing and, in my opinion, completed in five days. Each day the two pigeons relaxed more and more and by the fifth day, they were eating right along with the ferals that surrounded them outside the carrying cage. As a matter of fact, while I was catching the first one to put in the carrying cage on the fifth morning, the other one flew to the cage by himself and went in willingly. It was as though he knew that he was going to see his new friends. I would not be surprised if that was, in fact, the case. It was at that moment that I decided that today would be the release day, provided that they acted right at the feeding site. When they reached the feeding location and the other pigeons settled around them on the ground, both of the caged birds showed a desire to get out of the cage. To me, that was the right thing to do to convince me that the time of release was here. I asked my friend to open the door so I could get a picture of their first moment of release into the wild. The light gray one waited by the door as it was opened and immediately came out and walked among his new flock mates, followed by his darker sibling. After a few minutes, the gray one leaped into the air and flew in a totally erratic manner all around the feeding site, turning left, right and up and down. Both birds had flown like this each morning in the pigeon room when they first exited their cage. The flight of the light gray pigeon was beautiful and exciting to watch, and it ended when the bird landed in the middle of the flock, almost in the exact spot from where the flight began. Neither bird ate anything that I noticed, and when almost all the grain was consumed by the flock, my friend and I continued on to the restaurant for our breakfast. When we returned to the feeding site on the way back from breakfast, the two in house birds were still there, along with about fifteen members of the flock. Apparently, these were the ones that missed the earlier feeding, so I gave them all the remaining grain and we crossed the street to leave. Neither of the released birds ate anything, and as we crossed the street, they all took off to where ever they go, along with the two new members of the flock.

The first big step towards a successful release had been completed. The released birds went with the flock when it left the feeding site. They would be safe as long as they remained accepted and surrounded by the street wise birds that made up their new flock mates. The next few days would show whether the birds would survive or not. Those few days were not promising at all. The in house birds did not return with the flock for the next three feeding sessions. As each day passed without a trace of the released pigeons, I grew more and more worried about their fate. By the third day, I imagined all sorts of ways they might have met with death. Starvation, hawk attack, people attack, every possible way two uneducated pigeons might fail to survive. The possibility that I may have released them too soon ate at me with a vengeance. But, I tried to keep the faith as many other pigeons missed feedings repeatedly, and would then show up healthy and hungry.

On the morning of the fourth day, as I approached the feeding site and watched the birds drop from the sky to the ground around me, I noticed the darker sibling as it landed among the other pigeons. I said to my friend as I pointed to the bird that it was one of mine. He agreed and as I ask if he saw the other one, a flurry of wing beats descended and hovered before my face. As I raised my open hand, the light gray one dropped onto it and stood there looking straight at my face. He obviously recognized me. I was elated! Then, as I complained that the other bird, as usual, would not willingly come to my hand, it too came to me and landed beside his sibling. The first thing I noticed was that the both of them together did not weigh as much as one of the other pigeons. It was apparent that they had eaten little to nothing for the three days they were absent from the morning feedings. Needless to say, I insured they were allowed to eat their fill, which they did in a very fast manner.

The second big step towards a successful release was accomplished. They birds had stayed with the flock and had returned with them to get fed. But, would it continue?

It did continue, as they were present and accounted for the following morning, and I noticed that they were both a little heavier than the day before. So, it looks like the release was a success and I may have started a new bloodline of pigeons that may last forever. The whole experience of this “Pigeon Experiment” was one of the most rewarding things I have ever done. It is hard to believe how much of an effect these charming little birds can have on a person who will take the time to see it. 

Photographs of the release and subsequent return to the birds can be found at the following link, as well as a record of the entire Pigeon Experiment. If interested, please take a look. 

http://picasaweb.google.com/goulian01/MyPigeonExperiment

The birds continue to come to breakfast and seem to be gaining weight. I believe they have successfully made the transition, thanks to the street smart birds who have accepted them into thir flock. 

Take care, All and happy pigeoning,

Mike


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sounds like you did a great job, Mike. I have done a similar release recently, but with a baby (um, now adolescent) which I had saved from a hawk situation.

In my case...I allowed the "get to know each other" period to be longer...like 3 weeks...but this was partially because we had to wait for the baby to mature enough to be ready for release.

The only other suggestion I would have made is...somewhere posted here on this site it is written that...in addition to allowing your birds to observe their wild brethren foraging....it is also important to get them to recognize when a flock startles and takes off...so they will learn to react as quickly.

This is done by, during the feedings....occasionally clapping or making a sudden motion so the wild ones startle and take off...the caged guys will eventually react in kind...and when they start doing the same thing inside the cage (startle and try to take off with the flock) for a period of a few days....they are good to go.

This is academic in your instance...as they sound like they are thriving. But I just write it FYI, or anyone else's.

Kudos to you, MIke...and it is nice to know they are enjoying their new, wild and free life !!! So, they now experienced the best of both worlds...a caring provider, and then the life of a feral pigeon. Applause.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What a saga...beautifully documented, Mike. You did a good job with those two and you took the time to make sure they would take up with the flock. You are so conscientious and I have always appreciated that about you. I really hope they thrive and you are able to see them every day.
Keep us posted.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

*soft release*

You did a perfect soft release, Goulian......I'm just terribly disappointed that you captured two ferals, force bred them, released the parents before the babies were grown, then released the babies before they were even three months old.....WHY??? I thought you wanted pets that you hand raised and now what????


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

little bird said:


> You did a perfect soft release, Goulian......I'm just terribly disappointed that you captured two ferals, force bred them, released the parents before the babies were grown, then released the babies before they were even three months old.....WHY??? I thought you wanted pets that you hand raised and now what????


It sounds like he was told to remove them.


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## goulian (May 15, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Sounds like you did a great job, Mike. I have done a similar release recently, but with a baby (um, now adolescent) which I had saved from a hawk situation.
> 
> In my case...I allowed the "get to know each other" period to be longer...like 3 weeks...but this was partially because we had to wait for the baby to mature enough to be ready for release.
> 
> ...



Hi, Jaye,

My original intentions were to let them get accustomed to the feral flock for two weeks. Also, the part about startling the birds was to be done during the second week. I thought the first week would be used to fully aquaint them with the flock. However, the actions of the birds seemed to me to justify the release at the end of the first week. I am very happy with the results and the birds seem so have adjusted very well. They come straight to my hand each morning and eat to their contentment. And, they have been completely accepted by the others in the flock. I suspect that they will be bringing their own young'uns to eat by the end of this summer.

Thank you for the kudos, Jaye. 

Take care.


Mike


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## goulian (May 15, 2007)

Charis said:


> What a saga...beautifully documented, Mike. You did a good job with those two and you took the time to make sure they would take up with the flock. You are so conscientious and I have always appreciated that about you. I really hope they thrive and you are able to see them every day.
> Keep us posted.


Hi, Charis,

Thanks for the nice comments. I think the photo album turned out all right, even if I do say so, myself. It is something I can look back on in the future and remember the fun it was to do. I was prepared to take as long as necessary to allow the birds the greatest chance of success. As it tuirned out, only a week was required. This is a testiment to the adaptability of pigeons, even young ones.

Take care, Charis, and good luck in all your pigeon endeavors.


Mike


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## goulian (May 15, 2007)

little bird said:


> You did a perfect soft release, Goulian......I'm just terribly disappointed that you captured two ferals, force bred them, released the parents before the babies were grown, then released the babies before they were even three months old.....WHY??? I thought you wanted pets that you hand raised and now what????


Yes, little bird, the release did go off very well, as did the entire process, and I thank you for saying so. Everything I did with these birds was thoroughly thought out even before I brought home the first one. It might not have turned out as well as it did, but since it did, I am quite please with the results. There is no need for you to be dissappointed in me or what I did with the pigeons. It is I who has the right to be dissappointed as it is I who had every intention to keep these birds for as long I could, but was unable to do so. Also, do you honestly believe that I have the ability to force two birds to mate and raise a family? I am afraid you give me way too much credit. The birds mated because they chose to, not because they had to. You thought I wanted pets that I hand raised...well, you were exactly correct. That is what I wanted. I released the parents before the babies were grown for that very reason. I also had a reason to release the birds before they were three months old. They were over two and a half months old when they were released. That is well beyond the age that release is possible. They were healthy, strong fliers. The weather was warm and no rain was in the immediate forecast. Everything was positive for a successful release, which is what happened. 

You ask "now what?" Now, I have no birds and a nice Pigeon Room that is empty. With any luck, the circumstances that caused me to have to release the pigeons will be reversed and I will, in fact, end up with a young pigeon pet as was intended. At this point, I don't know. I will, however, try my best to make it so.


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## goulian (May 15, 2007)

Charis said:


> It sounds like he was told to remove them.


Hi, again, Charis,

Once again, you are correct. The landlord has sold the apartment building to someone else who, at this time, refuses to allow any animals in the apartments. That is the landlord's right and I cannot disput it. If I were in the States, maybe something could be done, I don't know. But, I am in the Republic of Korea and the laws here are quite different in many ways than the laws in the Unites States. I suppose I could have moved, but that is not going to happen any time soon, I hope. If I can convince the new guy to allow pets in the future, I will get a pigeon pet, but hopefully this time not have to breed one. But, this is all speculation as at this time it is a no go.

Take care, Charis, and thanks for coming to my defense.

Mike


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## goulian (May 15, 2007)

little bird said:


> the entire ''Pigeon experiment''.....is that all this was...an experiment??


Hi, again, little bird. Yes, an experiment was exactly what it was. It was something I had never done before, never heard of anyone doing it before, and did not know how it would turn out. Much of the procedure I thought out myself, much was gleened from the advice of people on this very site. It was an experiment, and a successful one, except for the fact that it did not last near long enough to satisfy me. Please do not try to belittle it by saying "is that all it was", because to me it was a lot more than just an experiment. It is not my fault that you can not see it that way.

Take care, little bird.

Mike


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

.........Mike.......I'm speechess!!!!!


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I'm so sorry that you had to release your pets that you worked so hard and so patiently to raise. It is probably for the best that this happened sooner than later though, since the birds were still young enough to adapt.

I hope that sometime in the future you'll be able to have (and keep) pigeons again.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

goulian said:


> Hi, again, little bird. Yes, an experiment was exactly what it was. It was something I had never done before, never heard of anyone doing it before, and did not know how it would turn out. Much of the procedure I thought out myself, much was gleened from the advice of people on this very site. It was an experiment, and a successful one, except for the fact that it did not last near long enough to satisfy me. Please do not try to belittle it by saying "is that all it was", because to me it was a lot more than just an experiment. It is not my fault that you can not see it that way.
> 
> Take care, little bird.
> 
> Mike


OK, Mike, you blew me away with that little spiel about your experiment. Maybe you and others don't understand what I am talking about and why I am so upset with your experiment.
Correct me if I'm wrong......You bird-nap, take from the wild flock, two healthy, unpaired adult birds, stealing them from their mates and possible babies, and you take them indoors. You set them up to mate and lay eggs, which they do (because that's what they do) and they hatch out two healthy chicks. Then you proceed with your ''experiment'' and take the parents of these two week old chicks and throw them back OUTSIDE, to return to their old stomping grounds to find their mates have taken other mates and are raising other chicks, so now these two adults have no mates...no family...no nest....NO HOME. Meanwhile you continue your plan and hand raise the two chicks. They wean and learn to fly and you ''are forced to set them free''.... into a world where they have not learned survival from their parents and in fact are so tame that they have no fear of humans. 
I may be the only one, but I feel your whole ''experiment'' should be deemed a miserable failure, even though you followed the soft release instructions on the PT sticky perfectly. Frankly, I feel you have done a cruel and thoughtless injury to all the birds concerned.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

little bird said:


> OK, Mike, you blew me away with that little spiel about your experiment. Maybe you and others don't understand what I am talking about and why I am so upset with your experiment.
> Correct me if I'm wrong......
> 
> * *You bird-nap, take from the wild flock, two healthy, unpaired adult birds, stealing them from their mates and possible babies, and you take them indoors.*
> ...


* One thing that has been discussed on this site is that it's absolutely wrong to snatch a healthy feral pigeon(s) from it's (their) environment, *FOR WHATEVER REASON*. To do so should not be condoned or encouraged.

** I *totally* agree with you.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO EACH OF YOU, NONA AND CINDY...
My remembrance of the situation is that Mike carefully chose unattached young adults and...everyday on this forum someone is talking about selling a hen or a cock bird and separating mates. Everyday pairs are forced to mate. It is from all he read here that Mike developed his "experiment"[ bad choice of words, in my opinion] to obtain a couple of pet companions. Would I have done it...NO! Would I ever separate mated pairs...NO! I do object to these practices. But, what is the difference between Mike doing what he gleaned from the forum and his action being not ok and others can do it and it is? I'm not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful but I really don't understand.
What is the difference?


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Charis....The forum does not condone taking HEALTHY adults from the wild flocks for any reason.....how did he KNOW they were un-attached...maybe because they were not wearing matching wedding bands????


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO EACH OF YOU, NONA AND CINDY...
> My remembrance of the situation is that *Mike carefully chose unattached young adults* and...everyday on this forum someone is talking about selling a hen or a cock bird and separating mates. Everyday pairs are forced to mate. It is from all he read here that Mike developed his "experiment"[ bad choice of words, in my opinion] to obtain a couple of pet companions. Would I have done it...NO! Would I ever separate mated pairs...NO! I do object to these practices. But, what is the difference between Mike doing what he gleaned from the forum and his action being not ok and others can do it and it is? I'm not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful but I really don't understand.
> *What is the difference*?


Quite frankly, I don't know how anyone could determine if a feral pigeon is unattached or not.  

Do I think it's right to separate any pairs, absolutely not. 

The problem I have with Mike's situation is that he *captured* two perfectly healthy *FERAL* pigeons, put them together (hoping they would mate & produce babies, which they did) THEN removed the parents after only a couple feedings so he could experiment on raising them himself. This is WRONG, Charis, no matter how you look at it.

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

little bird said:


> Charis....The forum does not condone taking HEALTHY adults from the wild flocks for any reason.....how did he KNOW they were un-attached...maybe because they were not wearing matching wedding bands????


 And I totally agree but, what is the difference between his actions and separating any pairs be they feral of not? That's my question and I really want to understand . Is there no difference to some of us, but we just accept one and not the other? I accept one's right to separate pairs. Don't like it...wouldn't do it but I'm only going to yell and screem if a bird is abused or mistreated, neglected...I'm not going to alienate that individual because they separate pairs. 
Maybe we need a philosophy thread!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Quite frankly, I don't know how anyone could determine if a feral pigeon is unattached or not.
> 
> Do I think it's right to separate any pairs, absolutely not.
> 
> ...


Cindy, he removed the parents after a couple of WEEKS..not a couple of FEEDINGS. His experiment was not to see if he could feed them...he wanted a pet. He didn't think he would ever be forced to release them. 
All being said, I appreciate your stand, I'm glad you said what you did and I respect you very much.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Well at least they(pigeons) have a human ally in getting food. hawks by themselves can cause loss and havioc in a flock. I think they will be o.k. after this "experiment". But if he wants pets, just buy some from someone.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> Cindy, *he removed the parents after a couple of WEEKS*..not a couple of FEEDINGS. His experiment was not to see if he could feed them...he wanted a pet.
> 
> * *He didn't think he would ever be forced to release them.*
> All being said, I appreciate your stand, I'm glad you said what you did and *I respect you very much*.


I stand corrected, Charis.  
With that said, I still disagree with what was done. 

* Another reason to leave well enough alone. 

As I do you.  

Cindy


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> Well at least they(pigeons) have a human ally in getting food. hawks by themselves can cause loss and havioc in a flock. I think they will be o.k. after this "experiment". But if he wants pets, just buy some from someone.


I have fed feral flocks in NYC for over 40 years.....not one of those birds will land on me or eat from my hand and that is as it should be. Ferals, especially in a country like Korea where they are on the menu, should keep a healthy fear of humans.....even generous feeders.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I stand corrected, Charis.
> With that said, I still disagree with what was done.
> 
> * Another reason to leave well enough alone.
> ...


   ....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

little bird said:


> I have fed feral flocks in NYC for over 40 years.....not one of those birds will land on me or eat from my hand and that is as it should be. Ferals, especially in a country like Korea where they are on the menu, should keep a healthy fear of humans.....even generous feeders.


Then why are you feeding them? why not let mother nature do it?


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

There is NOT a heck of a lot of Mother Nature in NYC and the hotdog buns and pizza crusts are few and far between during the winter months. When we feed the ferals, we also get the sparrows, starlings, mourning doves, and sometimes migrants and they all have lean pickings in the winter too.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

little bird said:


> There is NOT a heck of a lot of Mother Nature in NYC and the hotdog buns and pizza crusts are few and far between during the winter months. When we feed the ferals, we also get the sparrows, starlings, mourning doves, and sometimes migrants and they all have lean pickings in the winter too.


oK, so should mike feed the pigeons or NOT in your opinion??????? or did the "experiment" exempt him from doing that in your eyes.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I would think that if, in the future Mike is permitted to keep a pet pigeon, adopting one from a breeder or taking in an injured feral would be the way to go.

Not to talk about you like you're not here, Mike..  just the way it came out.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> oK, so should mike feed the pigeons or NOT in your opinion??????? or did the "experiment" exempt him from doing that in your eyes.


In my opinion, a feeder should NEVER tame the flock when they feed. By that I mean that the birds should not be encouraged to eat from the hand or land on the feeder. They are in mortal danger if they are NOT afraid of humans.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Just To Be Perfectly Clear*




And For All To Acknowledge In Big Letters....I NEVER SAID I WOULD "DO" IT, I SAID I WOULD "NOT". I HAVE BEEN MISUNDERSTOOD. I UNDERSTAND WHY MIKE THOUGHT IT WAS OK, SINCE IT IS DONE ON THIS FORUM ALL THE TIME.
HOPE I HAVE MADE MYSELF CLEAR.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

little bird said:


> In my opinion, a feeder should NEVER tame the flock when they feed. By that I mean that the birds should not be encouraged to eat from the hand or land on the feeder. They are in mortal danger if they are NOT afraid of humans.


There are some mean people out there, but a bad person could kill a whole flock with poison with any feeding method where birds congregate when humans feed them.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> There are some mean people out there, but a bad person could kill a whole flock with poison with any feeding method where birds congregate when humans feed them.


Yes, Spirit Wings..there are many evil people out there who would harm the innocent..(Ken Livingstone comes to mind) ...THEY walk among us & we don't know who they are until they do something terrible..like kill humans or pigeons...but we have to try to help the birds when there isn't enough to go around. The pigeons are here because of us...they aren't native so they have no natural food supply and they don't migrate.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

little bird said:


> Yes, Spirit Wings..there are many evil people out there who would harm the innocent..(Ken Livingstone comes to mind) ...THEY walk among us & we don't know who they are until they do something terrible..like kill humans or pigeons...but we have to try to help the birds when there isn't enough to go around. The pigeons are here because of us...they aren't native so they have no natural food supply and they don't migrate.


well then I think Mike is doing a Good thing, better than no food at all.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Yes..Mike is to be commended for feeding them, after all the food is quite expensive for a large flock. I just wish he would not TAME them so....when he finally leaves Korea, they may well be at the mercy of anyone who spreads food . They are too trusting of humans.


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## goulian (May 15, 2007)

Now it is my turn to be "Speechless." But, unlike little bird, I mean it.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Mike...you shouldn't be speechless. I have been viewing the turn this thread has taken in the past 24+ hrs. 

personally...I think there are points to be made on both sides. I also must say, I went back and took a look at Mike's older posts; and perhaps some of you should, as well. Quite significantly....over time he has asked some very good questions and has seeked some solid advice and has acted accordingly on this advice.

So although the manner may be debatable to some of you...I must say that, all in all, I believe he has been VERY considerate throughout his actions and really was working with respect and appreciation for the pigeons he has been fortunate enough to have a relationship with.

If you don't necessarily agree with what was done...and some here would, and some would not...then in the absolute very least please give Mike something for the fact that, in regards to the pigeon welfare....it was done with quite a bit of thought. And do not just discard the end result...parents were released back into the wild...and then, when it became obvious that keeping his handraised pair was no longer an option....he excecuted a soft release..... flawlessly. Not all that easy to pull off.

Regarding feeding ferals, etc....if a certain pigeon, or a certain few, so choose to extend themselves towards a human to an extent beyond which most wild ferals do (and if anyone here denies they have experienced THIS...I don't believe you), then does that necessarily meet the definition of unilaterally trying to tame a feral ? Or is it possible that such a decision is actually more...mutual ?

I also find the slightly pontificating tone of some to be a bit of a letdown...particularly for a site of this calibre. There are good ways to state your points with clarity and respect towards the individual you happen not to agree with...and there are not-so-good ways. If 'experiment" was a poor choice of words (and I DO think some of you folks misinterpreted what was meant by that)...then I would have to point out that the choice of semantics of some responses here weren't much better....

Furthermore, I think Charis' point is VERY apropos (sp?).

Where does one draw the line exactly ? So...it is OK to do many of these things in a private breeder/keeper situation...but not in Mike's situation ? 

I find such an argument specious at best. How were/are pigeons/doves brought into a "kept" situation to begin with ? (I mean long, long ago)

Something to seriously think about...for quite a period of time, I might add... 

Now, in regards to the astute points made on the other side (since these are also significant)...I can completely understand and respect the points made that there is an element of "upsetting the natural" here, and that a good argument can be made for not doing so. Such an argument becomes stronger when one is in an environment or locale or situation where there is access to plenty of alternative ways to secure/adopt/befriend a pair...so I do not think anyone here particularly would disagree with that point.

An interesting debate...a complex issue with many points of view and digression as well.....and as with most issues posessing such characteristics...an answer or even a middle-ground often will not just pop up and bite us all on the derriere....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jaye said:


> Mike...you shouldn't be speechless. I have been viewing the turn this thread has taken in the past 24+ hrs.
> 
> personally...I think there are points to be made on both sides. I also must say, I went back and took a look at Mike's older posts; and perhaps some of you should, as well. Quite significantly....over time he has asked some very good questions and has seeked some solid advice and has acted accordingly on this advice.
> 
> ...


Are you a professor?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

UGH....  

good one...

...but if I were... I'd'a known for sure how to spell "apropos"....


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

It is spelled "à propos"
Myriam, pigeon rescuer and retired French teacher


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