# breeding out a cross



## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

hi please could you tell me how many generations it takes to breed a cross out ? thank you


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Crossing birds*

I take it you are talking about an out-cross to another breed.

Everyone has their own opinion on breed crossing. Some folks will tell you that you can get back to the original in X number of pairings usually starting around
the 7/8ths mark (3rd generation) to 1/32nd (5th generation). Depending on the similarity in the original breeds you might see birds that look like one or the other of the original breeds in the 3rd generation, and by the time you get to the 5th generation you will be getting birds that no one other than yourself would know carried genes from another breed.

So far I have told you what others saying about crossing breeds. Now I will tell you what I believe. It took dedicated men at least one hundred years and maybe a lot more to set the type, character, and performance in each breed of pigeons. It takes one generation to step back to square one. Folks that like to follow the simple thought process of each generation giving you exact percentages of the original genes are wrong. That scenario only holds true in the first generation. In the second generation a process called cross-over will occur, and gene groups that were isolated in one breed will now get paired on the same chromosome as genes from the other breed. These genes can persist forever, and you will never know they are there. There are thousands of genes that do not express in the appearance of the birds. Recessive gene traits that affect appearance will show up years later in the appearance of the birds. Just look at the chest frills in racing homers, the crests in some families of rollers, and on an on.

I look at the show breeds of today, and it sickens me to see what the showmen have done to the old breeds. Things like Modenas that were a neat little flying bird in my youth are gone. Replaced by Kings with Modena patterns. Almost every show breed today is much larger than the birds of yesterday because someone with a twisted logic believes that bigger is better in the show ring. If they wanted to raise chickens they should have gotten them some chickens.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

(If they wanted 
to raise chickens they should have gotten them some chickens.) Thanks for the chuckle.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Without people with the imagination and vision to create different breeds, new colours within breeds, etc., either by breed-crossing or exploiting gene mutations, there wouldn't even be any chickens!!


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

indigobob said:


> Without people with the imagination and vision to create different breeds, new colours within breeds, etc., either by breed-crossing or exploiting gene mutations, there wouldn't even be any chickens!!


Well at least when times get hard the showmen won't starve. 

Me, I'm still on the lookout for the old style Modenas.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

lordcornalis as you can see it is not an easy question. Even in the best of situations it takes time and dedication.....but it is greatly going to depend on chance but also on what you are trying to cross in and what breed(s) are you involved. If you found a feral with a new gene "blue eyes" (silly example)that you wanted to cross into some show homers and you found it was a dominant gene (you could easily see which birds inherited it) you may be able to get some typy birds in a couple generations since they are not too much different in form and it is a single dominant characteristic. If you were crossing the "blue eyes" into fantails it would take several more generations to get the full fantail type back with a good tail, stance, round body, head properly back etc. Now imagine that blue eyes is recessive to red eyes and you want to put that on your fantails. You could not even tell the carriers except by test mating. Much bigger undertaking that would probably take a lifetime of breeding to get good birds back.


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## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

thanks for your great comments ,a few years ago i had no hens so i got a roller hen to mate with my Takla cock i am at F3 now the black hen i have is 7/8 Takla now .. i have kept on crossing them back to Takla's .


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Back in 98 or 99 I bred a black Deveindt in to my Fabrys the Devreindt would through a dun every now and then. I kept 2 from him to breeding. now generations later once in a while I will get a black oit of them and then another dun. It would take a lot of research just to find out how many generations back that was, so I dont think you ever really breed out your cross.
Dave


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## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

thanks pete good point


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

lordcornwallis said:


> thanks for your great comments ,a few years ago i had no hens so i got a roller hen to mate with my Takla cock i am at F3 now the black hen i have is 7/8 Takla now .. i have kept on crossing them back to Takla's .


lordcornwallis

Does your third generation cross have the characteristics of a Takla now, i.e. colour, performance, crest, etc? 

About 20 - 25 years ago I crossed a white-barred Brunner Pouter with a Show Roller with the intention of transferring the dominant opal gene to my Show Rollers. After the initial cross only Rollers were used in the breeding programme. By the 4th generation the birds were looking like Rollers - no evidence of a "blow" or long legs. Over the last 6 years I have moved the dominant opal gene from the Show Roller to Flying Rollers. The argument is that they will never be "pure" Rollers, despite them looking and performing like rollers, and the non-opals cannot be distinguished from "normal-coloured" Rollers.
It may be that some physical characteristics, which are composites of lesser genes and polygenes, which have evolved by selection, dissipate their characteristics more easily. 
Crazy Pete's example is of a single unit gene, i.e. dilute, producing dun from his blacks, passing down the male line as a sex-linked recessive gene and appearing sporadically as dun hens.

Good Luck in your quest for old-style Modenas, Chuck. It is a similar situation here in the UK where many show breeds are very much larger than they originally were. The Modenas here also are very similar to Kings.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Crazy Pete's example is of a single unit gene, i.e. dilute, producing dun from his blacks, passing down the male line as a sex-linked recessive gene and appearing sporadically as dun hens.

So how do I stop this? The parents to my last black was a DCSP sire and a BBWF hen and that about what all my bird look like. The first black only has a small % in my birds by now, yet every year I'll get one.
Dave


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Eliminating a genetic trait*

Pete,

The only way to eliminate the dilute (dun) from the birds is to breed test every cock bird. If a cock bird ever throws a dilute, he is a carrier and should be eliminated from the breeding groups. In addition all sons off that cock bird are possible carriers, and should either breed tested or eliminate from the breeding birds.

Bob,

I know the colors can be moved around. A very well respected rollerman here in the states, James Turner, has done it with all kinds of color factors. James has dedicated many many years to each of his projects. Two or three of his videos discussing his work are posted to Youtube. 

That said, probably 98% of a pigeons genes just make it a pigeon. It is only that 1% to 2% that make it a breed of pigeon. It isn't that hard to make those genes that appear as a specific breed characteristic align in the later crosses. It is the 98% that we can't see that make it almost impossible to remove all the genes from the cross except the one you desired to keep. While most of the 98% may make a pigeon a pigeon, we don't know what fraction hidden in that 98% might make it not a roller pigeon or a homing pigeon.

The modern (I hate that word) often has to be heavily plucked to send to the shows because one of the 98% of genes cause dark feathers all over that nice gazzi pattern.


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