# Question for Frank



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

What does flecking on Indigo mean? I have a roller YC that I believe is T Pattern Check Indigo and he has black flecks in his tail. I'm still learning about Indigo as it is new to me. Does it just mean that he carries blue (like ash red)? I have a YH that looks the same with no flecks. They both have alot of bronze in the shield.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Im not Frank BUt the flecking in the cock is Most often shown only in cock birds just as ash red only the cocks sho this hen do not. That is an easy way to tell cocks from hens.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks Robert*

I figured that part about the flecks on cocks only and the fact that I only see it on the cock bird. But....does Indigo work just like ash red in that they can carry blue/black? It would seem that this must be how it goes but I don't know that much about Indigo as yet. The Quinn book tells about it but I haven't found anything about whether they can carry other colors as well.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

It would be blue then when spread more you get andlliuson colored birds. either barred ,T patterned Or closed patterned birds as indigo. People still confuse indigo with ash red As they do not know indigo color. Which as you know is slightly deeper then the ash and the red. Say some what duller. Except when you see more of a blue indigo T patterned bird.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I was more confused earlier this year*

I never had Indigo or Andalusion before this year and I had wondered if some of my Ash Reds were Indigo. Some were just spread Ash Red which can be a nice Lavender or alot of muddy messes.

Either way, the similarities of Ash Red and Indigo can be confusing. Thanks to you, Frank, Dexter and George, I've learned the differences between the two. Having picked some up this summer makes it alot easier too.

I'm not sure why Indigo isn't considered to be a basic color, like Ash Red, Blue and Brown. None of these colors can carry Indigo so it seems to me that Indigo should be one of the basic colors, making four instead of three. What does anyone else think about this?

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

type in indigo colored pigeon On you web page You should find some good info. PLUS check the levi book the pigeon it has some info also.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Sorry guys, it sounds logical but the flecking in indigo is NOT apparently sex-linked. So both males and females show them. Indigos can be in any pigment: so you can have a brown indigo; an ash-red indigo; or a wild-type (blue) indigo. All can either be homozygous or heterozygous indigo on the base pigment.

Indigos don't CARRY ash-red. Think of indigo as an overcoat that can go on any one of the base colors. The ones that most people want are the wild-type (blue) indigos, because they show up. Ash-red indigos basically look ash-red (with sometimes a darker look to them); brown indigos are a bit dirty looking.

Wild-type indigos (blue/black indigos) are the ones that are in shows, etc. If the indigo is a heterozygous indigo on wild-type pigment AND if the bird also carries Spread, then you have an Andalusian *(just a fancier term for a heterozygous indigo Spread)); a homozygous indigo wild-type is almost a look-alike for an ash-red bird, but the flights and tail are usually darker with some dark flecks and the neck blend is usually darker than it is in ash-red. But it's a pretty close look-alike to an ash-red bird.

Most guys who want andaulians (het indigo wild-types) cross an indigo to a spread (black) bird and take the andalusian babies. Two andalusian paired together will give you: homozygous indigos in both sexes; het indigo Spread (andalusians) in both sexes; blacks in both sexes; het indigo bars and checks in both sexes -- if the parents were heterozygous for spread.

Hope this helps a bit
Frank


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Frank*

I checked up on Indigo on your site before reading this. Anyway, I think I read there that T Pattern (instead of spread) is a good way to go for making your Andalusions as it helps keep the bronze out of them. I'm not sure if I have bronze in my blacks but there is alot of bronze in my rollers and the indigoes that I have show alot as well. I have one andalusion that is very clean in that he shows no bronze. I'm just starting to play with these genes and am very happy to have them. Thanks for all the replies.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Bill, just to be clear. You can NOT get Andalusian with T-pattern and no Spread. You need at least one dose of spread to have andalusian (by definition). T-pattern indigo, is just that, T-pattern indigo. Now, a lot of the andalusian ARE t-pattern checks under that spread. What they mean about using T-patterns to get the andalusian is that once you have added Spread to the birds that you now pair your andalusians only to T-patterns (dark checks) which don't show bronze. You can see that in the T-patterns but not necessarily in the blacks (spread). When you pair a het spread het indigo (andalusian), you'll get both andalusians as well as dark check, indigo checks, blacks, and maybe bars, if they carry that as well. The andalusians are shown as andalusians and the others in their own class. Then they are paired again to the check so that you don't get the bronze showing thru. -- this is dependent on your checks not having bronze, etc.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks Frank*

I was starting to wonder if Indigo was something of it's own color instead of a modifier but apparently, this is not the case. It sounds like it works more like bronze and can combine with anything. I still don't understand why a T Pattern Indigo YC (which must be on a blue base) has black flecks.

I understand that Andalusion is spread and that the T Pattern breeding was used as a method to clean up bronze in spread pattern Andalusions. At first, I misunderstood this but after thinking about it and reading your posts, I realized that the T Pattern Indigo is what I already have and it certainly isn't Andalusion. I also have one Andalusion bird, so far.

My last question is, can Het Indigo produce Andalusion or more Het Indigoes on it's own, being bred to wild type? If so, Andalusion should be able to do the same as it is Het Indigo and spread. You may have already answered this above and I'll read it again to be sure. Sometimes, I'm pretty thick headed, so it seems.

My Andalusion YC is paired with a Reduced Black YH, had one baby in their first round and it's as black as black can be, also has dirty factor. I was hoping for some Andalusions and of course, cocks that would be split for Reduced. Round two is about to hatch and I don't know if I'll get any more this year before breaking pairs up for Winter.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

_My last question is, can Het Indigo produce Andalusion or more Het Indigoes on it's own, being bred to wild type? If so, Andalusion should be able to do the same as it is Het Indigo and spread. You may have already answered this above and I'll read it again to be sure. Sometimes, I'm pretty thick headed, so it seems._Bill

No. Het indigo can only produce Andalusian if a bird carrying it is mated to a Spread (black) bird. Spread is what makes indigo what fanciers call Andalusian. Andalusian is not a genetics term. It's a fancier's one for the phenotype of the combined effect of indigo and spread both. 

ALL het indigos can and WILL produce het indigos. Half of all the young produced by a het indigo X wild-type will produce 50% het indigo and 50% wild-type birds. Indigo is a partial dominant (the same as grizzle). So het indigo birds produce the phenotype most associate with indigo and **** indigo are the ash-red mimics. 

Thick headed? No - you ought to see the questions I still have and don't mention. You also ought to see the ones I asked Levi and Hollander and Gibson and everyone else over and over and over during the years to get things straight in my own head.

Frank


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*That's what I meant*

I was just asking if Indigo could do this from one side which I guess is asking if it is dominant. The Andalusion question was probably posed incorrectly, should have asked if my mating that I have going will produce Andalusion and apparently it will. When I said wild type, I should have said wild type plus spread as I know you don't get Andalusion without spread.

I need to think of Indigo like Grizzle. It seems to work the same way and heterozygous birds look different than homozygous birds. Spread changes it to another look, Mottle in Grizzles and Andalusion with Indigoes.

As long as we're at it, I'm trying to sort out what Tortoise Shell is. I think they are T Pattern and Grizzle but I'm not positive. It just looks to me like that's all it takes to make the Torts. In birds with more white, bronze keeps the appearance of Tort more obvious and shows the sort of scalloped appearance in the shield. Are they Tort even without bronze? I have ash reds and ash yellows that I suspect are T Pattern Grizzles as well. They show a pretty definate pattern in the shield, alternating color with white to give the scalloped appearance without blue/black. It's a lighter print and less obvious on some but I think they must be T Pattern Grizzle. I would not call them Tort. OK, so what makes Tort? I realize that Tort is not really a genetic term but like other breeder's terms, there must be something fairly specific genetically that gives them a common name in the first place.

Thanks again,

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

You're on the mark. Tort is pretty much T-pattern check and grizzle in combination. However, to go to Tort itself, there does seem to be something else in there, possibly undergrizzle and/or roller bronze as well. I'm no expert on rollers and some of the stuff in there.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks again*

I've had birds that I considered to be Torts that had no bronze at all. They still show the scalloped look without bronze. I think you may be right that there is more to it than just T Pattern and Grizzle but whether it is Under Grizzle (probably) or yet another modifier, I'm not sure. I've wondered if Smoky, Dirty or Sooty are involved as these factors could add to the look of Tort in that they create some different looks in the shield area and would likely enhance the light and dark areas of a T Pattern bird. I need to study the tails alittle closer to try to sort these things out.

Bill


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