# Please help with my baby pigeon



## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

Hi.. I haven't been on for awhile since one of my birds was sick.. I have 2 Old Fashioned Frill Satinette Pigeons. they have laid eggs lots of times..sometimes we put in fake ones.. This time they laid 2 and they accidently broke one, and the other grew and hatched. After hatching they refused to take care of it from the start. I have been hand feeding it since birth, and I am wondering if there is anything that I can do to help it get bigger and stronger. I am feeding it Exact Baby bird formula. He does seem to be growing, but verrrrrrryyyyy slowly. Is ther anything special I can do to help it out.. Please let me know ...we are really attached to this little bugger...He was born this past Sunday Morning...
Thanks Bonnie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Bonnie,

I'm sorry the parents gave up on the baby, perhaps it is inexperience or they sensed there might be something wrong with the baby. I have several Satinette couples and they have raised a few babies. Have they ever successfully raised any babies.

How does the baby's poop look, and does it have any discolored lesions inside the beak or on the legs or wings? How does the baby's poop look. I know from expereince that baby's on Kaytee usually have light brown poops looking like they came from a soft icecream machine, it comes out in ribbons. Please describe the poop if it is different.

Be sure to keep the baby warm as that is crucial to their processes and digestion. Make sure the air is warm and that there ar no air drafts on him/her. Do you have a cover for the baby? You might also add a drop of Apple cider vinegar (organic) to the formula to maintain a little more acidity and/or a little tiny bit of probiotics or kefir.

Make sure the baby empties the crop completely before feeding again. Are you feeding him/her enough? The crop should be almost full each feeding and look like a soft bean bag.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They usually do grow more slowly on KayTee. Do you have any way of weighing the little fellow?

Pidgey


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, They have raised at least 5 babies before....but we put in fake eggs for awhile, and its like they are mad or something....Well anyway....The poop is a greensih brown, and does kind of look like threads. every once in a while its a little watery. I think I have been feeding him enough, but how often should I do it. Like I said he is 4 days old. Just today..a little while again he started making this little clicking noise when he breathes sometimes. I don't want him to be sick...I think he would probably do better if I tube fed him, but i am way to nervous about it... I am hoping he didn't inhale any of the formula. He is usually pretty active, and then goes to sleep after being fed.. I don't have anyway to weigh him right now, but I can try to weigh it on my postage meter tomorrow at work...I don't have any idea what he should weigh.how would it act if it were sick? I really want to make sure that he makes it...soooo please help...
Thanks
Bonnie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cheap kitchen scales aren't half bad at weighing them. They're usually still pretty small at four days old, though. If you can remember what size he was when he hatched, he's not going to be but about half again to two times as long by now at the most. The instructions in the KayTee container for mixing worked for me when I had to raise one earlier this year from hatching. I let that one (Morty) slurp the first couple of meals and then I went ahead and made my own small tube feeder due to the time and my worry about him aspirating. Most folks don't do that though--they slog it out pretty much like you're doing.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't have any idea what the clicking is, unless he is trying to sit up and look all big and trying to defend himself, that is when I've heard my babies kind of make clicking noises.

Do you have any other parent birds that have a young one its age, that might take on feeding this little one? 

Sure does make life easier to have surrogates standing by....


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

I am really concerned that maybe he aspirated some, and thats what the noise is...It when he breathes. He wasn't as excited about eating as usual. should I take him to the vets?? Is there anything that they can do or give to it if so? How often should i be feeding him now...Maybe I am feeding him too much? I really hope that he is going to be ok...My motherly instincts are taking over, and I am really worried about him/her


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The clicking could be because of aspiration or because of some extra air getting into the crop during feeding. I would allow time for any food in the crop to empty out and then feel the crop and see if it feels like there is fluid or air remaining. If there is air in the crop, it can be gently "burped" out by pressing from the bottom of the crop toward the top. You want to be careful doing this as any food in the crop will also come up, and that could cause aspiration even if aspiration wasn't the problem to begin with.

A vet may place the baby on antibiotics in case of aspiration pneumonia, but at 4 days old, the antibiotics can be a bit hard on the baby too. 

How much are you feeding at each meal?

If you have a savvy vet, I would at least call him/her and ask for an opinion.

Terry


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

I weighed him this morning and he is .8 oz...I don't know if that is good or not...He is very active .. I am using a eye dropper, and he is kind of licking-sucking it as i squeeze the dropper..How much should he get???


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Check this method out.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8404110635196534861&hl=en


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

I fed him a little while ago...we seemed to be very excited about it, more than usual... It hard to feed him because he is so spastic..I worry that he is not getting enough since its hard to make sure that it is going in his mouth with all the squiggling. I also think that he gets alot of air in with it, but I am really nervous about the burping process. How much formula and how aften should i be feeding him?? Does he need water also or is the formula all he needs??/
Thanks
Bonnie


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

I watched the Video, and was wondering if he was too little to do that..It looked like an awesome idea....I will have to get the stuff to try it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Most folks are used to weighing them in grams. One ounce of weight is about 28 grams so you can say that he's about 22.4 grams if he's 0.8 ounces. They're somewhere in the ballpark of 12 grams at hatching, depending on how big the egg was. That would mean that he's almost double his original size. I've never read anything scientific about it but I have heard it said that they're usually about twice their original size at 48 hours old. So, he's probably a little behind. If he can eat more, then let him.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

I fed him again with the contraption, and he seemed to love it, but I am worried that he either ate too much or too fast. He kinda burped once or twice and some liquid came out of his mouth. Can you please tell me about how much in ml or cc he should be getting at a time.. I just want to make sure that I am giving him enough. I have not seen his coop that big, and I am concerned taht I let him have too much. is the burping normal???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, their tongues certainly aren't as good for cleaning the insides of their mouths like ours are. We've seen just about everything you can imagine with respect to them being messy, burping happens. There is a deal called "aerophagia" that happens when they're trying to eat faster than the food's being presented and so they swallow some air. If they actually aspirate any significant amount, they go pretty fast. I think in the Kaytee literature, it says something like 10 to 15% of their weight in Kaytee per meal, three times per day. 10% of 23 grams is 2.3 grams or roughly 2.3 milliliters. The worst things to do is get the stuff too thick or too thin so obey the instructions for mixing for the chick's age.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi

A baby as young as yours should probably get no more than about 5-8 cc per feeding 4 x day - say, 7 am, 11 am, 3 pm, 7 pm and, if you're still up, 11 pm for the 5th and final feeding of the day. Do you have a syringe that measures in cc's. That will help you to know how many cc's he consumes with each feeding.

Make sure he is kept warm and out of drafts. Check his crop before each feeding and observe his poops. If his crop has any food in it, delay the next feeding until it goes down.

Try adding plain yogurt, about 1/4 tsp to the formula to help his digestive system.


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

Oh God... He definitly ate more than that...I only should feed Him3 times a day???? Another site said that I was supposed to feed him like every 3 hours. Thats what I have been doing.. I hope I haven't been making him sick....I feel horrible...It said that when they were little to feed them every 2-3 hours. How about at night?? I have been getting up in the middle of the night to feed him.. Do I not need to do that?? I am sorry to be a pain, but I really want to take care of the little fella as good as possible. I appreciate all of your help...Thanks


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

LOL, I didn't mean to scare you. We feed ours about 4 times a day, sometimes 5 - not 3. You basically go by the crop - if it is empty then feed it but when they are very small, then small feedings are the best. If you have been feeding them about 3 cc every 2-3 hours then that should be fine. You will be able to increase the amount you're feeding it almost every day by a cc or two. 

Also, you don't really need to feed during the night unless the baby is very small and especially delicate. We did feed a couple of ours during the night when we had so many last year - matter of fact, all of them got fed even tho only the 2 needed it.  

Is he still making the clicking noise?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Bradygirl, I checked my notes from last year when we got in many babies (and eggs) and had to feed so many. I don't know if this will help you but it is the schedule I used for one of the babies named Skip. His egg had hatched under a foster parent on May 2. We had to bring him in about May 5 because they were not feeding him. 

I had the following notes about his feeding schedule: May 6, 6:15 am, 9:45 am; 11:15 am, 2:30 pm, 5:45 pm and 9:00 pm. At each feeding except the 9 pm, he was given 3 cc of formula. At 9 pm he got 4.

May 7, 2006: 6:00 am, 5 cc; 9:15 am, 5 cc; 12:00 pm 7 cc; 3:15 pm, 4.5 cc; 6:15 pm, 5 cc and 9:30 pm, 5 cc. He weighed 36 grams (at 5 days old).

May 8, 2006: 6:30 am, 8 cc; 9:30 am, 4 cc; 1:30 pm, 4 cc; 4:30 pm - couldn't determine amount because I fed him the way it is shown in the video and it was hard to get an accurate amount; 10 pm, 7 cc. He weighed 45 grams.

We use a nipple attached to a 3 or 5 cc syringe for the teenies. I did try the method shown in the video a time or two and liked it but it took so much time to feed them that way that we went back to the nipple method.

On May 9, he was fed 5 times with 4 hours between each feeding and got 10 cc each time he was fed. He weighed 63 grams.

You can see that it is not a cut and dried deal. If their crop hasn't emptied enough, give a smaller amount or wait an hour or so.

They gain weight every day, very rapidly, and you'll need to adjust the amount accordingly. 

I will mention that this little fellow weighed over 350 grams when he was released. Grew to be a whopper for a feral.


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

Hi.... He makes the noise sometime....He acts like he is starving all the time.. is there a maximum amount he can have. I have been noticing that it seems like he still has like air in the coop...Should I be worried about this? like when I massage it it just feels like air, but I can't get it to come out With the formula being a little thicker, do I need to give him water? Thanks


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

as I stated in the other email...I am really worried about the air in his coop. It seems like alot.. I can't tel if there is food in it as well or not, but it like a big air bubble that comes up his neck under his throat. Is that normal? and if not what should I do? His is very active, and peeps alot...and acts like he is starving all the time. I weighed him today..friday he was 22.4 grams...today he was 49.9 grams he is 8 days old today.
When do they start to actually eat by themselves. I know its not for a while..I should have paid better attention when they had their other babies. How about the water. Do I need to give it some or not..


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I wouldn't give any water for now. Sounds like the weight's coming up nicely now although some of that weight is likely to be KayTee. It's best to weigh them at the same time every day like in the morning before the first meal in order to get a true read on how they're gaining weight or not.

Burping them is dangerous as they can aspirate (breathe in) some formula and that can go real bad.

Pidgey


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

Thanks for the insight...Should I just not be worried about the air or puffiness in the coop.. It just noticably big..bigger than usual when its time to feed him next. I even make him wait longer for food to see if it will go down but it doesn't. That what I am really concerned about. Other than that he seems to be doing good. I do need to watch his feet for splay leg...They seem a little further apart from the body than I remember the other little ones. I really don't want to tie them...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You can put a towel with a rough surface or rubbermaid closet liner under him. That will give him traction. Be sure to fold his feet neatly under him, if they keep sticking out anyway, they will need to be gently taped together.


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## bradygirl (Jul 25, 2006)

Well.. i wanted to let you all know that my little peepers is doing real good. My only concern is how much, and what I should still be feeding him...When do I start to introduce seed ect??? I am giving him the formula, and he eats alot but then still acts starving and is like looking for something else. Any idea?? I don't want to introduce anything too soon, but I am wondering if he is looking for something more substancial. Thanks a Bunch..
Bonnie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Bonnie,

I'm glad your little one is doing well. At about 18 days of age you can start offering small seeds such as finch, canary, or parakeet. You will probably have to encourage the little bird to try to seed by "pecking" at it with your finger. You can also introduce a non-tippable container of water at this age and start gently dipping the beak into the water bowl. The little one will likely catch on very quickly to drinking water, but it may take some time for it to get the hang of eating seeds. Once the small seeds have been mastered and the bird is a bit bigger and older, you can start introducing larger seeds such as is contained in pigeon/dove mix.

Terry


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