# Top Beak stuck into bottom beak



## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Monday afternoon I saw a pigeon on the side of the road while driving. He didnt look dead because his feathers were still puffed up and was sitting upright so I stopped and picked him up (he was alive). It looked like his top beak had been smashed because of the blood that was covering it. He was also not using his right leg. I didnt have much time that night to inspect his wounds very well but I saw that he could only breathe through a small hole in the side of his beak. So I put him in a box with some warm heat and waited to see if he would make it though the night. The next day he was still alive so I started cleaning up his beak to see what had happened. After a few minutes I could see that his top beak had stabbed completely through the middle of his bottom beak where the skin is! I had never seen anything like this. After a long time trying to figure out how to get his beak unstuck (knowing that he would die for sure like this), a friend and I managed to get it out! We tried to let him drink but im sure after all the pain he had just gone through he was not wanting to. He wouldnt drink at all yesterday even after trying to dribble water in the side of his beak. 

This morning I gave him some water mixed with a little bit of gatorade and he drank about an ounce. Right leg is still not functioning. I havent tried to give him food yet either, since I figured water was the first priority. I was wondering if any of you have ever seen this happen before? He must have been hit by a car but I dont know how his beak got in this position. Unfortunately I do not have any pictures of before we got the beak unstuck. But I have attached a drawing of how it looked. (It was hard to see on the bird anyhow.) I am wondering where I need to go from here. Leg does not appear or feel to be broken but I dont have any experience with fractures. I have experience owning a few roller pigeons quite a few years ago but I never had to deal with any injuries like this. How soon does he need to be eating? He has been in my care for 42 hours and I do not know how long he was on the side of the road. He seems lively though. I will try to post some pictures of him and the feces. He is a nice looking blue bar. Thanks for your help. I actually started this account back when I had rollers! This pigeon is making me miss those days.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for rescuing him, I am always afraid that people will see a bird with bad injuries and decide that deathis their only option.

Make certain that he is warmed through on a heat pad set on low or under a heat lamp and let him drink more warm gatorade before feeding him.

There has been at least one similar injury on this forum and as far as I remember the beak healed well.

Injuries and fractures are not my strong point so I will e-mail Pidgey and Dobato who will be able to advise you on the leg. For the time being it would be best to place him in a towel donut so the leg hangs in as natural a position as possible.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, these things occasionally happen (beaks like that). They pretty much have to be hit head on for it to end up like that. That should heal okay in time. As to the leg, some pictures might help. However, if the leg is hanging rather loosely then it's more than likely broken. If you can give some more information, it'd be real helpful. In the meantime, I'll go find some old posts to copy and paste.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Repost:

It's possible to splint a broken leg on any bird with masking tape and it's pretty simple as well--that's what most vets do if it's not too complex of a fracture. You can take a look at this page and study the skeletal drawings to help you figure out the applicable anatomy:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

In any case, you can roll up a towel into a donut that the bird can settle into the middle of in such a way as to take any pressure off of the leg easily. Sometimes, you can bring them in the house and treat them like the Queen of Sheba with food and water right in front of them and they'll behave pretty well. About the only thing they'll stand up to do is poop and if you dutifully keep that cleaned up and then gently put them back down, they can learn to take it real easy and heal up just like that.

Otherwise, you sometimes have to clip the feathers of the leg closely with scissors and use masking tape to immobilize the leg as shown here:










...and it might come out looking like this:



The break on this bird was high enough on the tibiotarsus that I extended the tape up and over the back to help it immobilize it--otherwise, following the drawings above wouldn't have gone high enough to actually do the job. I clipped all the feathers short where the tape went, too.

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Thank you Feefo! I just gave him some more gatorade mixed with water. It was room temperature but I can warm it next time if that is better. What would you suggest trying to feed him first? I didnt have any bird food so I put some whole grain rice in front of him and he pecked a couple of times at it, but his aim is off. He gave up pecking after that. I tried using the towel ring but he kept falling out of it so i used some packing peanuts in the bottom of a box and made a little hole for him to sit. 

Pidgey, thanks so much for these pictures and instructions! Looks like a very good idea and easy to do as well. I will have some pictures up in about an hour.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Being a Tulsan, of course, I shouldn't be helping you. Any OTHER fellow Okie, no problem...

...but seeing as how you're helping a pigeon, I guess you can't be all THAT bad!!!

Just kidding!

You can give them wild bird mix but they're usually most interested in the whole kernel corn at this point in the year due to needing to bolt food down quickly in order to avoid hawks. Given the fact that there's all the time in the world to eat now, you can give him some stuff in a small bowl and he won't miss. Make a mess he most certainly will, but miss... not too likely.

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Haha is there something wrong with us OKC people? Maybe its something in the water. 

I did try a small bowl after, but I think the first 2 pecks probably hurt so he stopped. I have been letting him rest for the past couple hours and will go out again in a bit and start with the bowl first.


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Here are some general pictues of the bird. Couldnt really get any good pictures of the leg. He keeps his left one extended all the time and he moves it. His right one is slightly bent and he wont move it. You can kind of see in the second picture.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks for caring, and saving the Pigeon.

Can he/she open and close the beak OK ?

If not eating on her own, you are really going to have to start handfeeding her/him...because a Pigeon cannot go on many days w/o food...and if his ability to peck is badly comrpomised...he won't bother trying.

get some frozen peas and corn...thaw it under hot tap water, let it cool to lukewarm (make sure the inside isn't hot) and gently open the beak and pop a morsel into the back of the mouth. They usually swallow. 

Do about 7-10 morsels/feeding (you can actually do as many as 15-20 but to start out, I usually do less for the first few days). He will need about 24-30 pieces/day, maybe divided up into 3 feedings....in order to maintain weight.

I do not mean to be a naysayer here....but...are there any avian vets in your area ? A likely broken leg and crushed beak are conditions which home remedies may not really be able to properly address.....also questions of infection begin to arise.....


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

It can open its beak a little bit but I havent seen it open very wide. Maybe 1-2 millimeters. It is drinking great now. Beak looks normal but im sure its still sore. Thanks for the advice on the food. I didnt know how long to wait before needing to start handfeeding. Sounds like today I will start since it has already been a 2 days in my care without eating. 

No youre not being a naysayer at all. Im sure that would be the best situation for him, but honestly I'm not really prepared for a vet bill right now. I really want to do what I can for the poor thing, and I want to give it a good chance though, so I will call around and get some information. I will see how feeding goes today and go from there.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Brad, thanks for helping this little one out. Here is a link to a clip that Feefo made on how to hand feed a sick bird: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow. With this kind of injury, and since you say he can open his beak a bit, it may be best to see if you provide him with a dish of smaller seeds whether he can self feed. You may be lucky enough to have a bird as cooperative as the one in the video clip, but many are not and sometimes the beak has to be grasped firmly to get it open and hold it open for a moment to get the food in, which is problematic with the kind of injury he has. This may need to be done, but it may be worthwhile to at least see where he is at with eating on his own. Also, you can try very small pieces of torn up whole wheat bread as well, to see if he will try and eat these. The bread, for a few days, may also be an alternative food in hand feeding, as if it is fresh it can be compressed a bit and made a bit flatter where his beak would not have to be opened as much to get some food into him, if hand-feeding has to be done

I understand about the vet bill, so we will try the best we can for him.

If you do provide him seeds to try and eat he may not let you see him eat, so if you could post a few photos of what he is producing in the way of droppings, we can tell if he is getting any food at all (it will take a number of hours for food to start to work its way through him). That he is drinking great is a good sign and they can go a number of days without food if they are staying well hydrated and especially if the were in half decent body shape at the time of injury/illness.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I understand the situation. We all understand about vet bills...but, again, this isn't a typical injury situation. Opening of the beak a couple of millimeters may be because of soreness, or it may be because there's something fundamentally damaged which a layman, or even an experienced Pigeon person, cannot ascertain....but an avian vet possibly can.

_I am just saying this might be a case where there's a window to avoid permanent beak damage_ which would allow your pal to be treated and heal to a better condition than if not examined....but nobody here can possibly examine and determine whether more needs to be done other than supportive care.....

In such instances, we have to do right by the Pigeon.

If you can find someone to look at him, make sure they will not confiscate him and kill him. Sometimes it's necessary to tell them the pigeon is your pet or a hand-raised, human bonded companion or loft bird.

Best of luck.


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Just an update:

The pigeon is doing great! He started eating on February 24th. His beak is working perfectly normal. His legs are getting stronger, and from what I am seeing, I do not believe that his legs were ever broken. He is getting around way to well (even a week ago), unless pigeons just heal really fast. His grip is not very good yet, and so his balance is lacking when walking. He hasn't tried to fly yet, but he extends both his wings at times while walking to keep his balance. Things are looking very good for him and I am so happy you all helped me make this possible. I have been taking him outside every day to walk around and get some exercise. He seems to like this a lot. Here is a link to a video of him on his first day eating (Feb 24th). His legs are MUCH better now than they were in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHARHdw6y5g


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Has he gotten used to you?

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

He is a lot more comfortable around me now. He has starting grunting when I try to pick him up sometimes, but my rollers used to do that. Its good that he's making some noise at least. I can walk around him on the ground and he dosen't run or anything unless I try to actually touch him.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Grunting, huh? Probably a female, then... well, I wonder if she'd rather be a "kept pigeon"? 

Oh, well, how's her body feeling, is it filling out like she's eating well?

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Now that you mention it, I do remember the females were the main ones to do that. I should start calling "him" a "her" I guess! Shes eating quite a bit. Body feels skinny but not too bad. Filling out more than the beginning. I will give her the option to go back to nature when/if she becomes COMPLETELY healthy. If she wants to stay I will be glad to take care of her.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Might look into worming her--that's often an issue with the ones out in the wild. Make sure that you don't overdose her, though, as some wormers can cause great harm or death. If you've got any, you can check with us here before giving it and we can verify the dosages.

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Good idea. I have searched for some threads and have found that a commonly used medication is ivermectin. Is this a good choice?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, that is a good one, make sure to follow instructions very carefully.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's generally not cost-effective to do Ivermectin unless you're dosing an entire loft, though, from what I've seen. That is, you'll usually buy a bottle big enough to do a horse and pay quite a bit when you're only going to use a drop or so for a single bird. You'd mentioned having or having had rollers, so do you still have them and worm them? More to the point, do you have any actual wormer? And, if so, is it within its expiration date (it matters on Ivermectin, actually)? If not, then we need to look into a cheaper alternative.

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

I havent had the rollers in years and never did worm them.  I was looking at these two items though. What do you think? The first being for direct feeding, the second to mix with drinking water.

#519 Ivomectin 0.5% 10ml/cc $9.95
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/519-584.html

Eqvalan - Water soluble Ivomectin. 1 teaspoon per 1/2 gallon of water for 3 days.
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-worms.html


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, that doesn't look too bad. I'd just go with the more inexpensive option myself but let other chime in on how effective they are and if there's a difference. The only Ivomec that I got, I got local and it was the big bottle of the pure stuff, thus my comment. Different people do different things and I usually use pills that I still have so haven't looked at those options yet.

Can you post a recent picture of 'er?

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

*Picture*

Here is a current picture. I will take some with better quality soon. Any others have suggestions on which type of Ivomectin to use? I will be ordering it tonight. Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The only other thing that I can say that I see is of a general sort of observation. This is obviously a "bars pigeon", referring to the two bars of darker color on each wing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to note that those bars are a bit ragged and not as crisp as you will see on a very healthy bird. This kind of thing is a dead giveaway on the general health of such a pigeon but, obviously, at the time of molting. If you were to keep her and run her through a round of medications to be sure and clear her of all parasites and infections, you'd eventually probably see her feathers start getting a lot more perfect looking after another molt or so. That said, you might consider getting a few other medications while you order those others. Maybe they have some kind of valupak or something like that. I keep large bulk stuff for rehabbing purposes, so I don't know if they do or not. Let others weigh in on that. Otherwise, I could probably send you a few odd bits to run her through over the next couple of months for a good tune-up.

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Got some ivermectin in the mail today. 0.5% solution from Foy's. Gave approximately 3 to 4 drops. I understand that I dont need to treat again until around 10 days later, correct? She seems pretty skinny and I hope this helps her. She's not eating a whole lot either. Eating some, but not as much as I think she should. She is walking around great now, but has a problem with the left wing. Can stretch it out but not as much as the right one. Seems pretty happy and energetic though, except when I had to give her medicine tonight!

EDIT: How soon would the worms start showing up in the poop (if they were there to begin with)? Can I see the worms with my naked eye/ magnifying glass? Does the poop need to be fresh to tell if it has worms?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Brad, I'll let Pidgey comment on the wing issues because he is better versed in that stuff than me, but with regards to the Ivermectin and de-worming, you should see something by the morning, and if she is passing them you should see something like in the link below:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483826&postcount=60

In about 12 days, you will re-dose her, and I would do 2 drops myself, as her follow up dose.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hmm... probably oughta' run her through some Baytril or Trimethoprim/Sulfa or a Tetracycline as well as some Metronidazole.

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

There have been no visible worms, so thats good I guess. Still doing well, but still not eating very much. I will look into those medicines that you listed Pidgey. What are they for? (In case I cant figure it out online). Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

For some kind of systemic infection that's got the bird partially sick to the point of not having much of an appetite. It's not uncommon to see birds that are found on the ground to have several things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes, that means that we give them a "shotgun" of medications to cure a bunch of stuff. It's almost normal for rehabbers to see such birds make serious turnarounds and be ready for release in a couple of weeks. Of course sometimes it doesn't work, too. That's life as a rehabber.

I'd probably go with a Tetracycline myself. You might be able to find Terramycin or Tetracycline or maybe even an Ornacycline at a local feedstore or petstore. The Ornacycycline has instructions for putting it in the water but we usually HATE doing that because we never know if the bird's going to drink enough or not. Also, it's virtually impossible to find out what's in the stuff (exact quantity of the medicine). We only use it when it's THE ONLY thing that can be found. When you buy Terramycin or Tetracycline at a feedstore, it usually comes in a bag big enough to treat a small herd of cattle. Inexpensive, nonetheless, but you often have a lot to throw away unless you repackage it such that it CANNOT pull humidity out of the air.

Pidgey


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

I have found that Tetracycline is usually available at pet stores for fish. I am hoping I can find Mardel brand Maracyn-TC, as I have heard this is 100% tetracycline. I also was reading on this forum that the recommended dose is 50mg/KG of bird, correct?

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/tetracycline-dose-22064.html

I will try to find a scale and weigh her tonight. Im pretty good with math, and I should be able to calculate the required dose for direct feeding with a syringe. 

How many doses per day should I use, and how much solution (in volume) should I try to make the doses? I have read 1mL, twice a day. I can obviously adjust the dilution to achieve the proper dose per mL if 1mL (x2) is correct. Thanks so much.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Brad, the Mardel-TC has 250mg per packet. When I have people make up suspensions, most times I try and make them fairly concentrated, so that it takes just a small amount to dose a bird, quicker for the caregiver, safer for the bird. What you would want to do is add one packet of the Mardel-TC to 5mL of pancake syrup or honey, this will be 1 level cooking teaspoon full (must be a cooking teaspoon, not a common flatware teaspoon). Stir this well. let sit 20 minutes, stir again, and you will have a 5% Tetracycline suspension to dose with (50mg/mL). 

The dose you mention 50mg/kg is a suggested dosing range for pigeons and a good deal of typical ferals will weigh between 300-350 grams, so if you gave your little guy 0.30mL (third line on a 1mL syringe, this is about 6 drops and is 15mg), every 12 hours, even if you don't have an exact weight, you will be fine in providing a therapeutic dose, with some variation of weight in mind. Place a drop or two to the front of his mouth and let him tongue it down, don't shoot it in, stir well before each use and keep refrigerated.

Karyn


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Thanks Dobato. They didn't have Maracyn-TC at the pet stores near me. They only had Maracyn and Maracyn-Two. I didn't know if either of these would work or should I keep looking?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Brad, you can get the Maracyn-Two, which is Minocycline, which is more similar to Doxycycline than it is to regular tetracycline, the main difference with Doxy is that it is more lipid soluble making for better penetration into fatty tissue. The dosing will be different, I have dosing from my desk reference, which I usually like to cross check with IVIS (an on-line veterinary website), but their site is down right now. Pick it up, confirm it is pure Minocycline and I'll get you some instructions up for you.

Karyn


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

*Same thing*

I had a bird like that about 6 months ago after a hawk attack. At first I thought its beak was completley tore off and I thought I would put her down the next morning. But after reading thru some old posts here,someone mentioned to check to see if the top beak was shoved down into the bottom. Sure enough that was what happened. After a little gentle tugging it popped right out. She was sore for awhile but is doing fine now. I have recieved 2 rounds of young ones from her since then. Sure glad I checked the old posts before I put her down.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

*here is a picture*

Here is what she looked like before I found out the beak was stuck down in her lower beak.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Brad, in case I am not around. The dosing for Minocycline will be considerably less than for other tetracyclines 10mg/kg BID (twice a day). So into 5mL of honey or syrup you will place 5 packs of the Minocycline (it says on the net each Maracyn-Two pack contains 10mg, so this will be 50mg total), stir well, let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 1% suspension to dose with 10mg/mL. You will give 0.10cc for every 100 grams of body weight, so a bird weighing 300 grams will get 0.30cc (third line on a 1cc syringe, every 12 hours, this will be 3mg). Stir well before each use and keep refrigerated between use, you will dose for 7 days.

Karyn


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

That looks very familiar beatlemike! Almost exactly what this one looked like, except it had a little more blood. You may have cleaned before taking your picture though. Glad to hear she is doing well!

Thank you Karyn! I like the honey over the syrup because it is natural, but I am curious as to why honey is used instead of water. Is it because of the solubility?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hoop1101 said:


> Thank you Karyn! I like the honey over the syrup because it is natural, but I am curious as to why honey is used instead of water. Is it because of the solubility?


No, not because of solubility, but because what we are making is called a "suspension" and in medicinal suspensions what is trying to be done is the suspending of fine particles of a drug in a thick, palatable liquid so the these particles don't quickly settle out and are fairly evenly dispersed through the liquid so when a dose is drawn, you get an even amount of medicine in the dose. Although many drugs are completely soluble into water, where you would then have a solution and not a suspension, the thing honey or syrup does is make it harder to spit/flick the medicine out of the mouth when given, and as kind of mentioned, makes it taste better for them, as many meds are quite bitter.

Karyn


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Thanks. That makes sense now. I will try this tonight and let you know how it goes!


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

First dose was given tonight. Seemed to go well!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Brad, thanks for the update, please keep us informed.

Karyn


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

This will be the last day of dosing (7 days) for the Minocycline. It has also been 12 days since the first dose of ivermectin. I am wondering if I should wait to give the second dose until a few days after the end of the antibiotic or if I can give it immediately.

On a side note, the pigeon is doing well. Still not eating a whole lot but I think she is gaining a bit more weight. I wish I would've weighed her before and now. I have been taking her outside the past couple days to get some exercise. She loves walking around but still cant fly. She can stretch her wings out though. Balance isnt 100%. She hopped up on a tree root and fell over as she hopped down and landed on her back. My first reaction was to help, but I let her try to get back up on her own and eventually she made it. She was flapping both wings to accomplish this. I am not sure if she will ever be able to fly again but she seems pretty happy anyway. Thanks for your help!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Brad, for de-worming it's usually 10-14 days, then re-dose, I myself would give it a one day break, and then de-dose the Ivermectin, 2 drops of the 0.50%, as I suggested earlier.

Glad she is making some improvements, albeit slowly and the she is getting some exercise. With the outdoor exercise, be a little careful with this, as they can go from not flying one day, to flying the next, we don't want her getting up somewhere that you can't fetch her from .

Maybe when you get a chance, you can post up a photo of her overnight droppings, this will allow us to get an idea of her food consumption and how her digestive tract is doing.

Good job, this may take a bit of time,

Karyn


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## Hoop1101 (Jun 5, 2004)

Thanks Karyn. I will give the ivermectin Friday then.

Yes that is true, I dont want her flying too far! I will get some pictures of the droppings. They seem to be a bit more watery than usual the last couple days.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I think the picture is in this thread by beatlemike.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/top-beak-stuck-into-bottom-beak-50650-3.html?highlight=lower+beak
Is this the one?


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