# Another Sick Feral Pigeon Needs Help



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I just took in another pigeon. She or he can barely fly. I think I have seen him many times before come to my terrace to eat. He is definitely not a young pigeon. The only thing I can find wrong by examining his body is that his breast bone is very sharp and there is a surface wound that looks like a scrape about two inches long along the middle of his sharp breast bone. I've looked inside of his throat and everything seems fine. Otherwise, he is not very alert and it does look like something is definitely wrong with him. I have put him inside of a large container with pigeon feed at the bottom. He ate a little but right now he is just standing in there rounded up.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

If you have a heating pad, put that under him on low with a towel over it. Or, you can put some rice in a sock and heat that in the microwave to keep him warm. Warmth is essential at this point. Try offering warm water with a pinch of salt and sugar in it. Are there any yellow hairs on his head? Does he squeak at all? He may be a youngster who got out of the nest early and therefor can't fly or feed himself yet. Others will be along with advice about the scrape, but for now you can put an antibiotic cream in it, such as Neosporin. You may need to hand feed him if he's not eating. Keep checking back. Good luck!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The sore on his keel is a minor issue--he didn't have the strength to keep from hitting hard in at least one landing. He may be suffering from Coccidiosis, a bacterial infection or just plain starvation. It's really good to get them under a real heat lamp under these circumstances. What medications do you have at the moment?

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Besides some eye antibiotic solution which was given to me for pigeon pox virus, all I have is 2.27% Baytril Solution and only several drops of it left in the bottle.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, can you get more? How many drops do you think you have? Do you have a syringe to dispense that with or a dropper with graduated marks?

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Yes, the bottle I have has a robber top and I have a syringe sticking through it. Right now I have 0.3 ml inside the syringe and there is about that much left inside the bottle. Can I get more? Perhaps. How soon? I am not sure. Perhaps tomorrow.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That'd probably be enough for two days @ 0.15 mls, twice daily. Do you mean that you can order more tomorrow or that you think you could actually get your hands on more tomorrow?

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Well, I've just called one of Animal General's rehabbers where I've been taking my rescues. I am taking this new rescue and maybe the PPMV victim there tomorrow. I am sure that they can give me some more Baytril if needed. I can also get some Baytril from my vet. 

Animal General rehabber has just told me something I did not want to hear regarding the PPMV victim. She said that these symptoms rarely get better and most of the times that they get worst which is what seems to be happening. I've been tube feeding this pigeon since she does not seem to be able to pluck on seeds any more.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ante bozanich said:


> Well, I've just called one of Animal General's rehabbers where I've been taking my rescues. I am taking this new rescue and maybe the PPVM victim there tomorrow. I am sure that they can give me some more Baytril if needed. I can also get some Baytril from my vet.
> 
> Animal General rehabber has just told me something I did not want to hear regarding the PPVM victim. She said that these symptoms rarely get better and most of the times that they get worst which is what seems to be happening. I've been tube feeding this pigeon since she does not seem to be able to pluck on seeds any more.


Let me say this about what the rehabber told you, the symptoms do get better if given time, I suspect that some rehabbers don't give the time needed and put the bird down. Therefore, they would say the birds just get worse because they have given up too soon to see improvement. It really depends on how much you are willing to extend yourself toward the bird's recovery. Only you can say.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks Charis. That makes me feel better. I hope you're right. I am willing to do all that I can, even if that means hand feeding her for the rest of my or her life, although I hope it does not come to that for her or my sake.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I had one last spring/summer that took several months before she finally got over the worst of it. It started with a coated and ulcerated GI tract (visible down her throat, kinda' like canker but it wasn't) and I had to tube feed her a fairly dilute formula. She put out a lot of liquid urine during that phase. Eventually, that part cleared up and then the neurological symptoms started. I think the portion of that during which she couldn't feed herself lasted at least two months. Then, she could feed herself but couldn't manage to stand upright for very long. I'd slump in a chair with her on my chest, using my hands to hold her upright as she learned to stand again and then finally to walk. I almost despaired that she ever would again but I kept up hope. She lives out in the loft now, managing her own life. She still has a lot of seizures but she seems fine otherwise.

By and large, only the most stubborn rehabbers get through cases like that.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd start the other one on the Baytril but it's not going to be of much help if it's Coccidiosis--gonna' need a test for that or just give another medication. And if it were worms, of course, you need yet another drug.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ante bozanich said:


> Thanks Charis. That makes me feel better. I hope you're right. I am willing to do all that I can, even if that means hand feeding her for the rest of my or her life, although I hope it does not come to that for her or my sake.


I've had birds that were so sick, I couldn't imagine them getting any better but with TLC and time, they did get better. It's always so rewarding. If by chance this bird is not going to improve, you will eventually know...I think you will feel it.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Both of you are great and very kind people and are giving us hope. 

I think I am only going to take the new pigeon to Animal General rehabbers tomorrow. I don't think my PPMV one needs any unnecessary stress. However, if I were to start the new rescue on Baytril before I take her there, how much exactly and how should I give her the staff?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

0.15 milliliters, twice daily, assuming that she's about 250 grams (an emaciated bird). If you think you need to stretch your supply out to three days, then you'd give 0.1 milliliters, twice daily.

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Should I mix it with the tube fed formula or just put it down her throat with the dropper?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd give it to her straight, without food.

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks! Let's hope for the best.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ante, best wishes on both birds. Keep the faith with the PMV pigeon. As others have said, they can recover but it does take a bit of extra dedication to get them through this bad time in their life. We hand fed one over a year.

I'll mention again that there is something really special about the PMV birds - don't know if it is their overall neurological problems, but we have found they are extra sweet and gentle. Every little improvement seems like a blessing and you're ready to cheerlead!


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Yes, this morning I saw her pluck on some seed before she had started to turn her beak upwards. Also, right now she is lying peacefully with her head only turned to the side a little instead of having it twisted around and up all the way. So this is definitely good to see and is a blessing.

I have given my new rescue first dosage of 0.15 ml of Baytril. His poops do not look good. Mostly it's clear liquid with some green in there. I am wondering if maybe this is the beginning of PPMV with him also? Should I start hand feeding him?

My appointment with the rehabbers is at 2:30 today which is three and a half hours from now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Unfortunately, there are several different shades of green that they can poop and you can kinda' tell what might be wrong with them (which way to turn, anyhow) based on some of the different shades. You can hold with the Baytril until actual PMV symptoms show up.

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I've put some of green stuff in a small plastic container and refrigerated it. I am taking this with me when I go to see rehabber in a couple of hours. They will do the lab work. For right now, I am not going to give him any more Baytril. Do you think I should tube feed him the formula before I go there?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I suppose I would.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Definitely feed the bird before you go. If the bird is vomiting start with a smaller amount.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I have not seen him vomit. There is a lot of clear liquid on the floor of the cage which I think is his poop. I am giving him 15 ml of thin formula mix which is hopefully going to replace some of the liquid he is been loosing.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't think the bird is getting enough substance. I would thicken the formula. How many times each day are you feeding?


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I usually try to tube feed pigeons, who can't eat and drink by themselves, at least three times per day about 17 ml each time. On top of tube feeding I've been also giving my PPMV pigeon some large seeds.

Anyway, unfortunately I forgot to take the stool sample with me when I went to rehabbers. There was some we were able to get from the bottom of carrying box. The only serious problem they could find is that there is blood present in his stool. As far as they could tell from a rather small sample, there were no parasites no bad bacteria just a lot of yeast. I forgot to mention this to them, but I had given him one or two Brewer's Yeast tablets during the time he's been with me. Could this be the reason that they think there is too much yeast in his stool? 

They have given me Sulfa-Tri (antibiotic) and Nystatin (for yeast) to give to him. 

I am not sure what to do. My feeling is that this is the first stage of PMV as you Pidgey have described the case with one of your PMV victims above. I am finding a lot of "liquid urine" and I think the blood in his stool may be from "ulcerated GI tract" as you say your pigeon had. If this is the case, would giving him this antibiotic be a good idea? I understand I could be totally wrong about him having PMV.

Besides this "liquid urine" and general weakness he looks good, is alert and his eyes are bright.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Parasites don't always show up in stool samples and so the pigeon could have worms. It could also be coccidia or giaridia. Was the blood visible to the eye?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you're not seeing any PMV-specifc symptoms, then your best bet is going to be to follow your rehabber's instructions and give the medications. If the bird has Coccidiosis, then there could be some blood. If they looked through the scope at a poop sample, then they should have a better idea what's going on than anybody else.

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

First I want to tell you that I can't express how much I appreciate your responses and your help. These are very difficult times here.

Charis,

No, blood is not visible to the eye. Actually now that I have been feeding him the formula, the poops are still all clear urine with a little beige (color of the formula) in the middle.

Pidgey,

The problem is that the rehabber was honest and has told me that she has no idea what is wrong with him, and that she did not know why there are blood cells in his stool. I think she has given me the antibiotic for a possible infection due to a possible internal bleeding. 

May I ask you... did the PMV pigeon, who you've mentioned above during his initial stage with a lot of urine, had any other symptoms besides this.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They can have a lot of urine for a lot of different reasons. I don't personally consider that particular symptom diagnostic for anything specific. I didn't even guess that Second Chance (my worst PMV bird) had PMV until almost a month down the road from when I first brought her in. She was outside on the roof throwing up and I knew it was only a matter of time or days before she was going to die. It was blind luck that she finally succumbed enough in my yard that I was able to catch her.

Looking down her throat, it was a nasty mess that looked almost, but not quite, like canker. We began polymicrobial treatment at that time, with Baytril, Metronidazole and Nystatin.

Also, we started her on a somewhat thin formula that could make it through. She didn't move much at all for weeks, staying under the heat lamp in a funny, tipped-upward position. I always felt like the only thing getting the food actually through her was gravity itself.

In retrospect, it was a case that reminded me of something Lady Tarheel mentioned a long time ago about some PMV birds that were so bad off that her vet had come up with that as a treatment regimen utilizing Baytril and Metronidazole. It can sometimes be the case that the bird can come down with other things while its immune system is busy fighting the virus.

Now, you're not going to know until later if it's PMV. So, in a case like this, it's probably best to start treating for the easiest answer that fits the symptoms and hope for the best.

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Hi everyone again,

I pulled this old thread of mine rather than starting a new one because I want to ask some question regarding the pigeons I have talked about on this thread. 

It turned out that the second pigeon who had very liquid stool was also a victim of PPMV. He had developed the symptoms. Now I have two PPMV birds and two other female pairs who have other problems but do not have this horrible disease. I've been trying to keep PPMV pigeons away from the other four. However PPMV are now flying and have bonded as a pair. I can't release them because they are still uncoordinated, circle their heads, have tremors and fall sometimes but they are eating on their own.

My question is basically, if someone knows... Is it okay to let them in the same room with my other pigeons at this point? 

Also, one of PPMV victims has large area on his sharp breast bone bare. Since I found him the feathers have not been growing there at all. I was told that it my be vitamin D deficiency. Since my place is rather dark without direct sunlight, they have said that I should get full spectrum light bulbs. Are these the same as plant lights if not what are they?

Thank you for your kindness in advance.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi Ante,

I don't know if anyone really knows for sure how long PMV is contagious. I've heard one avian vet say that it depends on the strain. 

On the full spectrum lighting, I haven't been able to figure out whether there's evidence that it does, in fact, help the body produce vitamin D. But I am using full-spectrum bulbs in the room where the birds are anyway. You might want to note that only fluorescent bulbs can be truly full spectrum. Any incandescent bulbs that claim to be really are not. The bulbs I got were these: http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/compact_fluorescent_32_ctg.htm

There's an interesting article on lighting and birds here: http://www.mmlights.com/bird lights.html

Jennifer


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks Jennifer for the info and the links. I'll look in to it.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

ante,
we cage the birds and put them on the fire escape once a week or so so they get some sun...would it be possible for you to do something like that? 

be careful to secure the cage well though, we have had a couple mishaps--hawks trying to get into the cage (we just had to scare it off a few times, but poor pijies probably almost died of fright), and once when we had a pigeon in a small carrying cage, she got startled, knocked herself down to the next floor, the cage burst open and off she flew! 

sabina


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Hey there Sabina,

Are you talking about wire cages? The only cages I have for pigeons are plastic cat carrying cages. Also, my terrace and all of my windows are facing North so there is hardly ever direct sun in my place, unfortunately.


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