# Help---pigeon Wounded By Cat



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hi, Yesterday while walking my dogs my brother saw a pigeon being attaked by a cat in a school field. We managed to shoo the cat off(with help from the dogs) and I managed to climb a fence to get to him. 
He flew a short distance off the ground(about 20cm high) but appears to have lost all his tail feathers. He also has a small injury to his left wing-on his shoulder. After looking at him at home, Ive also discovered two larger wounds on both sides of his breast, one about 3cm by 2cm and the other about 4cm by 3cm. I was home alone yesterday and the only thing I could find to wash it with was some Curex antibacterial hand cream! The wounds look like a layer of skin have been removed. Ive put him on a towel wrapped hot water bottle and put down some water and seed. 
He's lively and has no broken bones. He was born this year as I can still see a couple of long down feathers poking out of his plumage and he doesnt have all his feathers on hs beak yet.
I work at a vets(work exp) so will be taking him on monday, but in the meantime-what can i do?!
Ill try and post some pictures
Many thanks
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Here are some pictures, the wounds dont appear to be any deeper than skin...pleas have a look.


----------



## John_D

Hi,

Welcome and well-saved.

What he will need soon as you can arrange it, is antibiotics. Wounds from cats can be and often are fatal for birds. He will need to be on a course of *Synulox*. Hopefully, starting him on them tomorrow will be in time.

Keep him warm,as you have been doing, and hydrated. Check that he is able to drink the water. If necessary, gently dip his beak into a little pot of water but ensuring it doesn't reach his nostrils. If he seems unable to drink, you can use a small syringe or a dropper to drip water into the front of his beak which he should automatically swallow. 

Wounds on pigeons start to scab over quite quickly. Shouldn't be this quick, but don't allow this to happen, since they need to heal from inside. You will, of course, be able to get something like Intrasite gel tomorrow and sterile light gauze.

If he is not eating, then one or other of us can offer suggestions.

You may have already looked at the resources section, and I've no doubt much of this you are already familiar with anyway

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

John


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ive dipped his beak in water but he just sits there. He's swallowed once. Ive cleaned his wounds again, do you think it would be better if I clean them with some diluted warm johnsons sensitive baby soap? Or just warm water?
Im also terrified that while im holding him/cleaning him, hes just going to die of shock because Ive had that happen before.He's still lively and unlike yesterday when he just sat on my hand and let me handle him, he's now making an effort to keep away from me, which Im taking as a good sign. 
thank you for your prev. quick reply!
XxX


----------



## Skyeking

Please administer Clavamox, Augmenten, or the aforementioned medicine. Cat claws and saliva can be lethal.

You can put Neosporin on the wound once it is clean. You can rinse the wound out with some colloidal silver, no soap.

Follow instructions on this link:

http:www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822


----------



## John_D

I'd just use warm water, without knowing if soaps which may be safe for small humans are safe for small pigeons too. 

He won't die from shock. Woodies can die of heart failure if they have to be injected, though. The real danger is the potential infection, but on a Sunday in the UK there isn't anything you can do about antibiotics (unless you have a Pets-At-Home branch which has a vet). 

Check his poop, see what color and consistency it is. 

Is he showing any interest in food? He may need hand feeding. Small moistened balls of wholemeal bread, or thawed frozen peas (never tinned), or even pea-size bits of dog biscuit soaked until 'fluffy' are a stopgap.

You know your vet, and we don't. PLease ensure the policy is not just to put them to sleep. With the right treatment he has a chance of recovery. If he has wing damage, even then he could probably be found a home.

John

PS Also check inside his mouth is fairly pink and clean looking - no yellow 'growth'. Just a precaution to see if there's any obvious other problem.


----------



## Feefo

Hello,

Cats carry pasteurella in their saliva and pigeons can develop pasteurella septicemia very quickly after being cat caught, infected birds usually die within 24 hoours. People used to think that the cat caught birds died of shock, but it was infection.

This is why they need to receive antibiotics as soon as possible, try to get it injected if you go to the vet tomorrow, that will be more effective that giving it synulox orally.

Don't worry about handling the pigeon, they are semi domesticated and I have never known one die of shock. They can recover from terrible injuries and settle readily to captivity if they are unreleasable. In fact, even while recovering they have a disconcerting habit of finding a mate, building a nest and laying eggs. This is why it distresses us so much when a pigeon is euthanased unnecessarily.

Can you tell us where you are? We might know of a sanctuary that has antibiotics available. I suspect that you are in the UK, but could be wrong!

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I am in north west of Kent UK.


----------



## feralpigeon

A combination of Doxycycline & Metronidazole may be used in place of Synulox
in case you are unable to get the drug of first choice being Synulox/Clavamox/Augmentin.

Please do make sure of any facility policies in advance before signing over an injured or sick pigeon.

fp


----------



## Feefo

John_D has just pointed out that it is a wood pigeon. Serves me right for not wearing my glasses and not being alerted when you mentioned the school field! School fields where I live are usually full of woodies but I heve never seen a feral pigeon there.

Woodies are different, so scrap the injection...the shock of an injection has been known to kill them. And I can understand why you were afraid of causing death by shock when you handled it. I have never had a woodie die of shock but they are very stressed when they are handled, I avoid that unless it is essential.

As you rescued it from the cat it didn't have a chance to get dehydrated, just give it water and food in the cage, cover the cage and let it be. Get it to the vet and on Synulox as soon as possible tomorrow.

Good luck!

Cynthia


----------



## feralpigeon

Yes, John did get the ID on this one.  Hoping that the mouth is clear
of growths and that this cat-caught bird will be placed on antibiotics, asap.
If "signing the bird over", please don't forget to ask about their policy regarding
Woodies/Pigeons if unreleasable.

fp



John_D said:


> I'd just use warm water, without knowing if soaps which may be safe for small humans are safe for small pigeons too.
> 
> He won't die from shock. Woodies can die of heart failure if they have to be injected, though. The real danger is the potential infection, but on a Sunday in the UK there isn't anything you can do about antibiotics (unless you have a Pets-At-Home branch which has a vet).
> 
> ...........
> 
> John
> 
> PS Also check inside his mouth is fairly pink and clean looking - no yellow 'growth'. Just a precaution to see if there's any obvious other problem.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ive been working at my local vets for three years and Ill make sure he wont be put to sleep. Last year I hand reared a starling which as released and the head nurse has an avairy she uses for rehabing birds to reintroduce them back into the wild. 
Where would be the best place to keep him? At the moment he's in our cloak room although we do have a bird cage which we could cover while he hopefully recovers. 
Is the synulox put into the water, because he doesnt appear to be drinking much at the moment. He has been drinking from a spoon!
Ive bathed his wounds and theyre definately not as bad as i originally thought, the right hand wound is about 1cmX1cm and on the left there is a small circular wound(5mmX5mm) and a larger wound(2.5cmX3cm). Should I just continue to bathe them in warm water and use the antibiotics?

Again thank you for your help
XxX


----------



## feralpigeon

Clavamox or Augmentin (human form) which is how we know it in the states comes in pill form here and can be given orally. Dark,quiet and warm is good to help minimize the stress for the bird. I would put some antibiotic cream on the
scrapes and wait for the vet's visit.


fp


----------



## Feefo

I would also use Intrasite Gel on the wounds to keep them moist and speed up healing, washing them out and replacing the gel daily.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

Hi WildlifeVetToBe,



This looks to me to be a fledgling, or one who is still quite young and may not have ever eaten or drank by himself yet.


Water needs to be 'tepid', or close to his or your own Body Temperature for Pigeons of his age to conceed to drink it.

So, try some tepid water...but before you offer it, moisten your finger tips in it and gently massage his Beak and see if you can inspire him to make a tentatie 'Nuzzle', and if he does, then, guide his Beak into the tepid Water, and keep your finger tips on his Beak as you do so, and he will drink.

Washing injurys is best done with a Saline Solution or a dilute Peroxide and Water solution ( say, 1/3rd common Hydrogen Peroxide, and 2/3rds Water) , also 'tepid'...and this would be a good thing to do to clean off germs which are on his skin or on the ourtside of the injurys...

And the most earnest concern, is to get the correct Antibiotics for him and into him, as soon as possible.



You can cut a few Eye high smallish holes on a medium Cardboard Box, line the bottom with a white Towell ( so you can see and count poops ) and have him in that some place about elbow high or higher...not on the floor.

On top a Filing Cabinet is a good height.


Drape the open top of the Box with a light sheer cloth...and he will be about as comfortable as possible under the circumstances.

if he has food in his Crop ( you can gently feel his Crop to see ) or, if he is making poops, then he had been fed or had eaten recently and he can coast a little ways till food becomes of concern.

Being as young as he is, the matter of food and or feeding might be somehting which will have to be dealt with...or, if you are lucky, maybe he knows how to peck and will do so once some small whole Seeds are presented.




Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im taking the pigeon to the vets in an hour. Hopefully Ill get some antibiotics for him although I think they want me to leave him there...anyway Ill see what happens...how do you give a terrified pigeon tablets?, Especially if he doesnt know how to eat...although hes been drinking warm water from a spoon.


----------



## chriss80

Well is useful if someone else if holding him. You can hold a pigeon by holing his legs wings and tail at the back carefully and he won’t be able to escape while someone will administers the pill in his beck. Open the pigeon beak with 2 hands and then just keep it open with one hand while with the other hand you grab the pill and shove it down his throat fast. Make sure he swallows, if he shakes his head he might throw it away and look carefully around the floor for it. Helps if his head is close to his body and slightly on the back. You can do it pretty fast with a bit of experience. I have this pigeon that I have to hand feed and he can put quite a bit of a struggle. Or just simply try to put the pill down his throat in a dark room.


----------



## pdpbison

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Im taking the pigeon to the vets in an hour. Hopefully Ill get some antibiotics for him although I think they want me to leave him there...anyway Ill see what happens...how do you give a terrified pigeon tablets?, Especially if he doesnt know how to eat...although hes been drinking warm water from a spoon.




Hi Wildlifevetobe,


Hello..!

Hope the Vet visit goes well..!

Go back and read my post to you in which I outlined how you may guide him to drink. Please go back a little...it is the last post on page 1.

And doing this also will pay off in allowing/encouraging/providing him to eat.

A 'spoon' will not have the depth he needs the Water to have, for getting the amounts of hydration he needs.


To give them a Pill or Tablet - it is kinder to break the Tablet in half for it to swallow easier, unless it is small to begin with, and some are not.


To put the Tablet into his Beak, merely put it in far enough so he will swallow, and not spit it out. 

Do not shove anything down his Throat.



You may hold him for this proceedure by gently wrapping a small hand Towell around him so much of the Towell is below his Tail, and, gently spigoting him vertically, between just behind your knees as you sit.

This way, he is held and you have both hands free. 

Have him face to the right if you are right handed.


Gently open his Beak making sure not to cause any sideways pressures, and, once open enough for a finger tip to be inserted you may then place the Pill or Tablet in far enough to be behind the soft 'Barbs' of his Tongue...do not try and open it more than it WILL open or you will break or injure his Jaw.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Feefo

Any news?

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hi, sorry so late, bro was on the computer. Took him to the vets at six and the vet looked at him straight away. He was able to competely look at everything and has given me three syringes of baytril to inject. He has already had one which I injected at the vets and although I was worried how he would cope being a woodie, hes fine, Im cleaning his wounds in salt water for now, but my mums getting some saline and hibi to clean them properly. 
He drank from a spoon again tonight but I really dont know if hes eating. Ive put some seed down for tonight. 
Any advice on feeding or encouraging him to feed would be very much appreciated. 

thanks


----------



## Feefo

You can handfeed pigeons defrosted peas, defrosted corn or maize.and day old wholemeal bread rolled into pellets then rolled over small seeds like millet. This video shows the basic principles. Wrapping a wood pigeon lightly in a towel willl make it easier to handle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

I am glad that it is on antibiotics now but Baytril isn't the best choice for cat bites. If you scroll down this link to the paragraph it explains why not: http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html



> Caught-by-cat flesh wounds
> Cat bites may range from tiny puncture wounds to lacerations. The muscle underneath a puncture wound may be lacerated due to the action of the teeth in immobile muscle (relative to the skin). Many wounds cannot be detected with the naked eye and the need for antibiotics may not be recognised in cases where there is no evidence of a puncture wound or scratch [18]. Septicaemia is a common sequel to a cat bite, while other routes of infection have also been suggested. Birds may ingest organisms from cat saliva-coated feathers during preening leading to gastrointestinal disease and septicaemia [18]. Cats carry Pasteurella multocida on their gingival tissue and teeth and antibiotics are therefore always indicated in any bird attacked by a cat [19], [20]. In addition to Pasteurella spp, a mixed aerobic/anaerobic population has been recovered from the majority of cat bite wounds [18]. Selecting the right antibiotic (or antibiotic combination) is therefore of vital importance. Penicillins have been cited as the antibiotic of choice due to their efficacy against P. multocida [20] and their broad spectrum of action. *Fluoroquinolones, such as the much-favoured enrofloxacin (Baytril) should not be used on their own as they lack action against anaerobes and provide incomplete coverage against Streptococci spp*. For infected bites clavulanate-amoxycillin or combination therapy with penicillin, or clindamycin, and a fluoroquinolone is recommended. Ideally culture and sensitivity testing should be performed, but this will often be impossible for time and cost reasons.
> 
> Bite wounds should be aggressively cleaned and flushed with saline or 0.05% chlorhexidine [20]. Flushing may need to be repeated. Puncture wounds can be left open to drain but lacerations should be dressed to protect the underlying tissues. Some puncture wounds may need to be opened up to facilitate access to the underlying traumatised tissues.
> 
> Where the pectoral muscles have been lacerated, aggressive cleaning and debridement is indicated under general anaesthesia. Torn, necrotic muscle should be removed and the wound packed with a hydrogel. A hydrocolloid dressing (eg Duoderm Extra Thin) can be applied over the wounds to provide additional protection. The wounds should be reassessed after 24 to 48 hours and a decision made as to whether wound closure is appropriate (Figure 15 to Figure 18).


 It is also a good site for getting information on how to treat other avian wounds.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

He's currently in a bird cage with a large dark blanket over the top. 
His wounds look ok, not any worse than they orgininally were anyway. 

My only worry is feeding/drinking him. 
Ive managed to get him to drink from a spoon but he often coughs or breaths "funny" afterwards. 
I have no idea if he's eating the seed of just spreading it around. Ive managed to feed him a pea! Hes still really lively though(its been 4 days since I found him). If he hadnt of eaten since then, would he still be this active or would he be weak. Hes also pooing still. 
I hope Im doing this right. Ill be taking him to the vets on saturday(where i work) and reweighing him. He weighed 0.31kg on monday. 

Thanks


----------



## chriss80

Pigeons do that after hey drink water but I can not know for sure what your pigeon does, and as for the eating part you can feel his crop gently if there are any seeds inside by feeling it, should feel like … well like a bag of seeds. If is nothing then you cannot feel any seeds at all inside. Pigeons are wired and when they are ill they might not eat and you have to kind of force feed it.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Do I feel the crop by pinching the skin or ????
I did try lookng for the crop but couldnt find it under all those feathers. 
I get really nervous about holding him too much becuase he really is terrified. When i do give him a drink I make sure it doesnt go over his nostrils. Also, im scared of putting a pea in his mouth and him choking on it. Am i worrying too much?


----------



## Feefo

Unless a wood pigeon has eaten quite a lot it is difficult to assess how much he has in his crop.

Is the cage light enough for him to see his food? Scatter some seed on the floor of the cage, that can help.

Poops are a good indication of whether he is eating enough, can you tell us something about the colour and quantity? Don't worry about consistency for the time being. When they are not self feeding (and even when they are) their poops are a bit mushy.

You could also weigh him on digital scales daily to see if he is maintaining, losing or gaining weight.

One way of ensuring that he gets a lot of nutrition is to buy original flavoured complan and dip pieces of day old wholemeal bread in it, then push them to the back of his mouth. One piece with the crusts removed three times a day would be enough.

You can also roll the bread into pellets and then roll it in small seeds or dip it in water before hand feeding it to him.

Cynthia


----------



## chriss80

You don’t have to pinch his crop at all is more like grabbing carefully, is more like sideways between where his wings stay when he is not flaying, and you are feeling it and around it is like a bag of seeds. His crop is easy to find, it is said a pigeon eats as much as a chicken and no wander they say that because when they have their crop full you just can’t miss it, is right in front of him so to speck. Is where his neck ends basically. And if he has food in it even with all those feathers you can feel the seeds slightly pointing out. Now I am assuming he has eaten seeds because if he has chosen to eat something soft then it feels differently. Why you probably cannot feel it is because is empty and he has not eaten anything. I do not think he can choke from a small pea, just don’t cover his nostrils. I saw pigeons swallowing bigger things. Weirdly you can see a corn seed it going down his throat after you gave it to him. Pigeons are tricky creatures when it comes to handling them and they do get stressed. Just ask the vet about this things it shold explain to you and show you better about his crop.
This video of Cynthia says more 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow









WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Do I feel the crop by pinching the skin or ????
> I did try lookng for the crop but couldnt find it under all those feathers.
> I get really nervous about holding him too much becuase he really is terrified. When i do give him a drink I make sure it doesnt go over his nostrils. Also, im scared of putting a pea in his mouth and him choking on it. Am i worrying too much?


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I managed to get him to eat 3 peas, but its getting me so worried. Everytime i open his beak he pulls away and its making it imposible to feed him anything. 

When he breaths in, it sounds like hes got a cold. he doesnt do it all the time, mainly after Ive been handling him. I dont understand how he could of inhaled water though as ive only given him some on a spoon. 

When i try to hand feed him, I put a teatowel over him to calm him down...is this ok?or would it be better without. 

When I said I put a blanket over his cage, I mean over night. During the day we let some sunlight into his cage so he knows when its light etc. 

I tried to feel for a crop but i seriously couldnt feel a thing. I have no idea what im meant to be feeling but i cant feel any loose areas of skin or anything. 

If i can, should i try and feed him up tonight with about 10 peas or more, or should i leave him til morning. Im just so worried about him getting too stressed, especially as he's making these noises as he breaths in/coughs.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

o yea...and his lastest poo is about 1cm in diameter with about 0.5cm of dark poo in the middle.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Looking at the pigeon development pictures makes me think hes roughly 24 days old! Is it ok for him to be fed peas? Shouldnt he be pecking on his own by now?
Could the stress of his environment be preventing him from feeding?

sorry about all the Qus. really worried about him


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, well, I really have no idea what to do. 
i went into the room he's kept in just now and i can hear him breathing deeply as i get close.
As i watch him though he's not making any sounds like he's got a cold, just normal breathing. 
I NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO FEED HIM BECAUSE I REALLY DONT THING HE'S EATEN ANYTHING SINCE SATURDAY!!
Also how do I feed him??


----------



## chriss80

I know what you mean about the beak when is pulling it away. You need to practice more and be patient and gentle.
I do not know what could possible be with that weird breathing maybe someone else here could be more useful. Could be also normal pigeon noises, they make odd noises maybe you could put a video on because I simply don’t know.
The towel over his head is not a bad idea, if they see a bit of dark they tend to calm down for a while. Just make sure he is not suffocating and he has some air to breath.
I personally used to put a blanket half his cage and let half with light so the pigeon decides what he want to do. If my pigeon starts feeling scared he will go all by himself in the dark part of the cage. 
I personally think the pigeon has not eaten and he needs food from your description especially that you say he might possible be 24 days old .

I quote from a post around here regarding food that says Feed:
A pigeon or dove seed mix is most preferable but if not available then wild bird seed with a wider variety of seed like milo, millet, wheat, corn, black oil sunflower seeds..etc would be suitable. Other seeds/grains or legumes can be added to the wild bird seed mix like: dry whole lentils, pearl barley, unpopped pop corn, sesame seeds, flax seed, dry rolled oats, split peas and the like since pigeon prefer this and it also keeps them full longer. Snacks and fattening seeds:
For pigeons who are a bit underweight, adding more fatty/oily seeds to the mix is a good idea to quickly fatten them up.
Here are some suggestions: Raw peanuts (NOT roasted or salted), black oil sunflower seeds, shelled sunflower seeds (raw and without salt), hemp seed, safflower, whole corn, flax seed..etc.
Adding a drop of corn, sunflower or peanut oils (not canola or vegetable) to the seed mix to coat will also add some fat into the diet.


Is cheap and available to buy wild bird seeds mix from any pet store or in some supermarkets too, make this a priority would be a great idea. I think he need a bit more then 10 peas


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I have wild bird seed, sunflower seeds, and peas. What do I need to do to get him to eat?


----------



## chriss80

Oh that breathing is odd, i dont know what to say about it



WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Ok, well, I really have no idea what to do.
> i went into the room he's kept in just now and i can hear him breathing deeply as i get close.
> As i watch him though he's not making any sounds like he's got a cold, just normal breathing.
> I NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO FEED HIM BECAUSE I REALLY DONT THING HE'S EATEN ANYTHING SINCE SATURDAY!!
> Also how do I feed him??


----------



## chriss80

That is great, try practicing what that Cyntia was doing in the video, i know he puts up a fight but try to be gentle with him in the same time



WildlifeVetToBe said:


> I have wild bird seed, sunflower seeds, and peas. What do I need to do to get him to eat?


----------



## chriss80

I dont know what kind of peas you have maybe you can google a picture. Untill then stick to the sunflower seeds and the rest



WildlifeVetToBe said:


> I have wild bird seed, sunflower seeds, and peas. What do I need to do to get him to eat?


----------



## pdpbison

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Ok, well, I really have no idea what to do.
> i went into the room he's kept in just now and i can hear him breathing deeply as i get close.
> As i watch him though he's not making any sounds like he's got a cold, just normal breathing.
> I NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO FEED HIM BECAUSE I REALLY DONT THING HE'S EATEN ANYTHING SINCE SATURDAY!!
> Also how do I feed him??




Hi Wildlifevettobe, 



Hopefully you have not caused him to aspirate Water or anything else into his Trachea or Lungs, where a pneumonia and breathing sounds would likely result.


It might be good for you to consider how these Birds eat normally, in Nature, and of their own interest and volition and typially very assertive enthusiasm also...in order to approach the matter with some deference to how the Bird feels or reacts or would like things to be in his terms of it, in order for him to eat volitionally.

In Nature, these Birds feed by inserting their Beak into the open mouth and Throat of their Parent...and not from anyone useing force or trying to pry open their Beak in order to put anything into it.

Sadly, imposition and force tend to damage a trust which otherwise might have happily led to easier successes, and to frustrate both the Bird and the care-giver into further or ongoind errors of judgement and method...but even still, they can usually be won over if one merely starts anew and does the right things, kin the right ways and in the right sequences.


If you wish him to Eat volitionally, the place to have begun was, or the place to begin now, is, with Drinking, and not 'from a spoon'.



To invite him to drink, approach him with LOW Hands, lower than his eye level, and with him either elevated, or you crouching down so you are not towering over him, intimidating him.

Moisten the finger tips of one Hand in Warm Water, and gently massage his Beak, from the front, massaging his Beak down by the root one might say, with the warm moist finger tips.

Unless the young Pigeon has been entirely put off by prior disjunctions, he will "Nuzzle" ( ie: asking to be fed or watered) in response to the invitation in his terms, having his Beak warmly, moistly, 'massaged'.


If he will "nuzzle", you may guide his Beak into a small Tea Cup or the likes of WARM, TEPID, "BODY TEMPERATURE" Water, which is what he would expecting it to be, since previously, Water fed to them was roughly at the Body Temperature of the Parent feeding/Watering them.

So, guide his beak unto it's length THEN, once he is "Nuzzleing" into some tepid Water, and keeping your finger-tips ON the sides of his Beak, and he will drink.

Keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak AS he Drinks and keep them there "period" do not remove your finger tips from his Beak untill he is done drinking.

Once he has done this a few times, he will understand you are wishing to Water and or Feed him...and he will be much more accomidating, and interested, but only within limits.

So, the thing then, is to prepare some appropriate food he WILL volentarily eat, food which makes sense in his terms "as" food, or, if you like, given his age and all, just skip over all that and instead...

Do the moist-warm Beak 'massage' to invite "Nuzzleing" and as he Nuzzles then, guide his Beak, keeping your finger tips on the sides of it and KEEP them there ontinuously the whole time for this...and guide his Beak into a small deep Glass, such as a 'Shot Glass', which is 7/8ths full of small, whole, DRY Seeds.


If you do this even remotely right, he will 'gobble' the Seeds with about the same motions as he would do if feeding from his Parent's Throat, if of course doing so in a slighty different way...tilt the little Glass of Seeds toward him so he is not pressing his Neck against the side of it...and, he will 'gobble' and he will eat almost all of them that hgis Beak can get in their depth, typically in a few moments merely, and he ( and you ) will feel VERY happy with it.

Repeat again as appropriate, or every three or four hours, or as his Crop may have room to do.


If he is not making 45 reasonable sized Poops in 24 hours, he has not been getting fed enough.


Water him then, in real terms, by letting him drink as described above.

Water ( always "body temperature" ) should then be offered off and on several times through out the day and evening...where you guide his Beak as desribed, and KEEP your finger tips on his Beak as he drinks.

Later he will drink without this, but for now he needs it, or most likely does.


This 'drinking from a spoon' will merely work against the whole of how things would need to be for him to enter into the progression and continuity of HOW things are done, in order for him to graduate nicely to eat and drink with your help, then to do so soon of his own with no help, with just some few days of these above mentioned considerations to him.




Good luck..!


Do this and you will have success...depart from it in casual elaborations or substitutions or contempt, and likely success will continue to elude you and him...or continue to be frustrated at any rate, for you both.


Best wishes..!

Phil
l v


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you, sorry about my previuos posts, i was really panicing last night. 
This morning before i went to school I just massaged his beak with warm water and although he didnt drink very much he almost ended up going to sleep. 
Ill try again when i get home and fingers crossed he'll be ok. He's still pooing and appears lively.
Thanks again
XxX


----------



## Feefo

> Unless the young Pigeon has been entirely put off by prior disjunctions, he will "Nuzzle" ....If you do this even remotely right, he will 'gobble' the Seeds


Phil, sorry for having to write in bold ltters but we have been through this so many times I know that you are trying to be helpful but *you have never seen or handled a wood pigeon * Please don't assume that they are like feral pigeons to raise and that if they don't respond to the approaches that you describe it is because the rescuer is doing something wrong.
Even a tame feral that has passed a certain age will struggle violently when held and lose a great number of feathers.

WildlifeVetto be, they very slow to self feed and three peas is not enough. 
Please try the wholemeal bread dipped in natural flavoured Complan, that will ensure that he gets a lot of nourishment in every beakful. If you e-mail me your adddress I can send you some Poly Aid, a very small amount goes a long way, St Tiggywinkles say that it meets all of a bird's nutritional needs until it is able to feed itself.

Sometimes they will huff and puff when they are agitated, but could you look inside his mouth and see if there are signs of canker there? Woodies are susceptible to both canker and pox, so look out for growths on any kind in his mouth and on the bare skin of his ceres and legs.

The bent spoon method of feeding has been used successfully with woodies, but leave a bowl of water in the cage with him. Pigeons that don't feed themselves will often be able to drink water. As he isn't eating you could mix up a rehydrating solution by mixing 1 pint of warm water with half a teaspoon of salt and half a tablespoon of glucose. Or you could ask your vet if they have any critical Care Formula.


----------



## Feefo

Can you tell me the name of the town or village that you are in. There are two places in Surrey that might be close to you (if you can get transport) and take pigeons. They are:

London Wildcare, Beddington Park,Church Road,Wallington,Surrey SM6 7NN, (020) 8773 0632 

and

Swan and Friends Bird Rescue . 55 Copsleigh Avenue , Salfords, Redhill, Surrey RG1 5BQ Telephone 01737 773712 or 07712 753919

And this is a link to a rescue directory: http://www.catchat.org/adoption/notcats.html

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hi, Have some good news, before I went to school today I left some peas on his bowl of seeds so I could tell whether he had disturbed it or not and came home to fine all the peas gone and some of the seeds gone. I put some more peas down and theyve gone now. 
His poo is still consistance with white and about 1cm of black in the middle. A few of his poos are a bit green...suspisciously the same colour as the peas!
As I went to give him some more peas, he actuly flapped out of the cage, so he's not weak and his wings are fine. 
His mouth is fine so I dont think he has canker and his legs are fine too. 
Hopefully it will only get better from now.


----------



## Pidgey

Usually, pigeons poops will have some dark green anyhow, even when they're starving. This is actually the result of continued bile production in the absence of food intake. The missing peas and seeds is a good sign, though. That dark blob of green should start having some solids in it now.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

O yes, theres some very solid poo in the middle! It looks like a little tube of black about 0.8-1cm long in the middle of white.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Am about to clean him out, There are poos with a very distict green colour but there are alot of poos that are not green. He is definately eating.


----------



## Feefo

That is wonderful news. Don't worry too much about the colour, one of my disabled woodpigeon's poops are a very peculiar shade of green, but they have been that colour for a long time and he is fine.

Has he got a branch to perch on?

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Yes, Ive got a fake branch that my brothers lizard usually uses. I clean it everyday though as his poo gets everywhere. About 2 hours ago I put a handful of peas into his bowl and theyre already all gone. Ive put a large handful in for now.They are tinned garden peas which Im washing in water before giving them to him. 
When I cleaned his wounds today I noticed that they looked slightly yellow. My mums going to get some hibi scrub and saline tomorrow rather than me just using warm (sterile) water with sea salt. Will probably be taking him to the vets tomorrow to reweigh and get some more anti-bios. 
I hope Im doing this right


----------



## Feefo

You are doing fine. However, defrosted frozen peas are preferable to tinned ones, the tinned ones are cooked and might have additives, the raw ones will be richer in vitamins and part of a wood pigeon's natural diet. If you defrost them by placing them in hot water they will be agreeably warm when the pigeon eats them.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, so long as eating peas on their own is ok for now because he's eating alot of them! His poo is a bit pea like, does this mean that hes not digesting it or is it just that hes eaten so many because he has eaten about three large handfuls since yesterday. 
Im really afraid that Ive just found he has canker. He actually ate pea i was holding and i noticed that right after he swallows he swallowed again and then started "coughing or wheezing". I was able to get close enough to see something yellow down his throat. 
What should I do?


----------



## Pidgey

Probably get some Metronidazole. I'll give Cynthia and John a ring to look in.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thanks, he'll be going to th vets tomorrow but theyre not really equipped for wildlife, but ill ask about it. I looked up the symptoms of canker and he's only wheezing after eating. After about 60-90 seconds he settles down and stops. He hasnt stopped eating and there is not eye/nosev discharge. I can see a yellow "blob" at the back of his throat though.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, you'll need to address that. Given your occupation, it shouldn't be too hard to get Metronidazole (Flagyl) in some form or another. The formularies run the gamut from the old 10-30 mg/kg, PO, BID (10 to 30 milligrams of pure medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily) up to 200-250 mg/kg, PO, QD (once daily) and several in between. I'd get him on the stuff today and hold it for a week to ten days.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Will do, Im a work experience student at the vets or "Voluntary Assistant Nurse"! My mums a midwife so will prob be able to get some on monday, although its in tablet form. I will definately ask at the vets tomorrow.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Would it help if i posted a picture?


----------



## Pidgey

You probably don't want to wait that long--it'd be far better to start as soon as possible. Sometimes canker can get really bad really fast and it's not worth the risk.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Would it help if i posted a picture?


A picture's almost always better than a description.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

OK, sorry about the quality, ive put an arrow on the photo which shows it the most! Its about pea size. The other images to show what the rest of his mouth is like and what he's like at the moment, he's in his cage and you can see all his poos, will be cleaning him out soon!



p.s. i think you get bigger versions by clicking on them


----------



## Pidgey

It's kinda' hard to see in there. Maybe a description would be better in this case... does the yellow button look like a lump of wet cheese and how big is it in millimeters?

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Oh! You said "pea sized"... yeah, gotta' watch that. Is it down near the airway behind it, beside it, in front of it, on the top side of his throat or what?

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

It looks like its on his tongue, when I first noticed it was when he was wheezing and it was like moving up and down when i was wheezing.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

whats his chances of survival??If I pay for some metronydazole tomorrow will he be ok. He seems to still be lively and isnt wheezing all the time. Is there anything I can do to try and slow down the growth before tomorrow or shall I wait for tomorrow to get the meds?


----------



## Feefo

I have found Spartix, which you can get without a prescription, to be very effective. For severe cases we use Spartrix and Metronidazole at the same time, but that is a prescription drug.

I would send you some Spartrix but it would not arrive until Monday at the earliest and I have no idea whether the strike is completely over and whether they are dealing with a backlog.

This is a link to canker on our website:

http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/canker.htm

Don't feel bad about not being able ro see it earlier, it is hard to spot when it is in the throat, but we often find that weakened wood pigeons have canker.


Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

I had one once (still have that bird) that had been hit by a car and laid on the side of the road till he got picked up by some good soul. He was pretty badly dehydrated by then and was almost in a coma. He had a broken leg and then developed canker like that days after be brought back to the land of the living. It developed a ring around the base of his tongue kinda' like a donut. In most cases with canker, you don't want to disturb the lesions but this one was actually kinda' loose so I actually took it out due to its proximity to the airway. I'm not going to suggest that you do that, though.

Get the Metronidazole and get it in the bird.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

ok, well, ill take him with me tomorrow. The yellow lumb is a round shape and cheddar cheese colour, not as pale as the canker on the website. Ive just put some defrosted peas in his cage. He seems to be wheezing a bit more.
Will he be ok until tomorrow? How quickly can this grow?


----------



## Feefo

Canker is always described as a caseous (cheesy) growth. The colour might vary from pigeon to pigeon. It often has a distinctive smell. 

There are other conditions that look like canker, but in that location I would say it is 99% certain that it is canker.

I don't know how quickly it grows as it is something that we treat immediately, but once treatment starts it can clear up very quickly. I gave one of my rescues that I didn't expect to last the night a ground up tablet of Spartrix and the next morning half the growth disappeared.

The problem with canker is that it can be in places that are invisible to us. Fortunately it has shown itself this time.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Will my vet stock spartix or is it something i can get from a chemist/pharmacy?


----------



## Feefo

It is a pigeon specific product so should be available from the vet. Mine always has a supply. 

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hes eaten most of the peas I put in but hes now having to open his mouth to breath. Will he be ok for the night. Is there nothing i can do til then?
Is it best for me to just leave him in peace for the night and pray hes ok? 
It is so frustrating, i really hope i can one day release him into the wild.


----------



## Pidgey

Is there no way you can go get that stuff today?

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

no, everywheres shut, the only place thats open is emergency vets and that would cost £70 for all out fee-money i dont have. ill be at the vets by 9 tomorrow.
i dont know if your in the US but over in the UK its quater past nine(pm)


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Is it a good sign if he can still eat?


----------



## Pidgey

It's a good sign under certain circumstances but not necessarily others. Due to the relative length to diameter ratio of a bird, it's pretty easy for them to choke to death. You need to keep a close eye on that stuff to make sure that it's not getting too big in front of the glottis (the opening of the airway). It may be possible to make a 10% solution of Betadine (Povidone/Iodine) solution and paint the lesion with it to try and kill some of the offending organisms that are causing the problem.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Incidentally, there's another thread on here for another woodie in Kent that's in trouble. I think they're further to the east by a substantial amount but if there's any way that you can get meds for them, too, it'd sure be nice. Please take a look:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=23336

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I dont have anything like that, Im not sure i could "paint" it either as its at the back of his mouth and he wont let me get near it. 
Is there anything i could make up for him. 
Unfortunately my parents arnt very enthusiastic about all this pigeon buisness so im trying my best. 
i can try to make it to the vets by 8:30 tomotrrow morning.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, short of giving him chlorinated water to drink, I don't know what to tell you. If you've got Clorox bleach or something very like it and you can find a description of how to take that product and treat water with it to make it drinkable, then you could mix some up for the bird and it might help.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Only got kitchen spray with bleach and that says -"if swallowed seek immediate medical help and show this label"
Im just going to check on him, Im terrified of finding a dead bird
What do i do if he's choking?or cant breath?
goooodddness me....here goes


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

phew phew...calm down....

hes ok, still breathing! Hes breathing in a bit through his mouth and out through his nose, bit like when we have a cold. 
Hes also eaten ALL the peas i gave him this evening which was quite alot.


----------



## Pidgey

You can treat water with Iodine, too, if you've got any of that. Some people get some good out of Apple Cider Vinegar added to the water at roughly two tablespoons to the gallon so that'd be about a teaspoon to the liter. You can try that if you've got it.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I have vinegar??No apple cider vinegar though, im sorry im so useless. Is there anyother natural remedies e.g. garlic?? would i have to make him eat this because if not i could put it into the middle of peas?!


----------



## Feefo

It is only "thin bleach" that can be used to sanitise the water. It is good that he has been able to eat the peas, they are quite large so there must be a good opening to the crop, the worry is that the wheezing could mean that the growth has damaged the trachea. Let's hope that it hasn't.

Keep an eye on his mouth to ensure that the food is going down. Have a pair of eyebrow tweezers handy, so that if anything sticks you can get it out of the mouth.

Spartrix should be available through any vets dispensary, you shouldn't need an appointment or consultation. It is usually administered as a whole tablet, but when I crushed one it seemed to work quicker.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

You can crush a garlic clove in the water but don't let him eat it. I don't know that anyone's ever promoted garlic for killing trichomonads before, though.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thing is, Ive worked at my vets for three years and often have to dispence drugs, i dont ever remember anything like spartrix. Fingers crossed theyll have some though. We dont get many pigeons brought in as pets thougha dn the ive never seen canker in a bird at the vets, although they may surprise me.
So should i put a bit of garlic in his water? I cant find any thin bleach.


----------



## Feefo

If your own vet doesn't have it another vet will. We buy ours from the local corn store, they have a section full of pigeon stuff.

If they don't have spartrix they might have metronidazole/ flagyl, as they have seen the pigeon they might dispense it without another consultation, but you could take the pigeon in with you just in case they want to examine it.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

Spartrix is a trade name. The drug name is Carnidazole and it's in the Nitroimidazole group like Metronidazole, Secnidazole, Ronidazole, Dimetridazole and a few others.

How about colloidal silver? You wouldn't happen to have any of that would you?

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im going to take him to reweigh him and get some more baytril anyway. I hope theyve seen this before. Ive emailed the closest bird vet but havnt had a reply. Ill call around tomorrow if my vet has none.


----------



## Pidgey

Baytril won't help with canker but it might come in handy for that other bird in Kent. Anyhow, I PMed Treesa to look in on this one because maybe you've got something that might help slow it down and she can work through what you've got and consider it. We've always promoted Apple Cider Vinegar for a variety of things because the acidity (acetic acid) can have an effect on the quantity of disease-causing organisms. It's possible that straight vinegar could have a similar effect but I'll have to take a look at it--hopefully somebody else already knows about that.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just had a phone call from a wildlife rescue place 1 hour from me, If i cant get him medicated tomorrow im going to hopefully take him there as theve said they have the canker meds.


----------



## Pidgey

Does your vinegar tell what the percentage of acetic acid is?

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

Well done! Unfortunately there is an epidemic of canker in the UK , goldfinches have been particularly affected, so the wildlife hospitals will be prepared.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Just had a phone call from a wildlife rescue place 1 hour from me, If i cant get him medicated tomorrow im going to hopefully take him there as theve said they have the canker meds.


Is that place anywhere near the folks of the other Kent thread (near Canterbury)?

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Its near Tonbridge Wells, about 80 minutes from canterbury. 

http://www.follywildliferescue.org.uk/

Theyll take and treat my pigeon if they can see he'll have a chance of recovery. They have all the meds he needs. 
Hes alot calmer now, still breathing a bit through his mouth.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

My vet looked at him about 2 hours ago. He says his wounds are healing well but he does have a large yellow canker at the back of his tongue/mouth. 
He's given me Metronidazole (200mg) and im giving him 1/10 of a tablet twice a day. At the moment ive crushed on of the tablets, added some water and am putting it in hollowed out peas which i can hand feed him. Hes already had some today and although i can see theyre getting a bit stuck in his mouth he is managing to swallow them. 
He still wont eat any seeds but is eating as many peas as he can. 
Any ideas how long it will take for the metronidazole to start working?


----------



## Pidgey

Within a day or two, usually. You're looking at a five-day treatment. It's often safest just to drop the pieces right in so that you can see them go down. 

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im hand feeding him the medicated peas so he actually takes them from my hand and swallows them infront of me. My vet told me continue for 10 days?


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, so he gave you (at least) two pills, then? I read that and then assumed only one pill, silly me. Ten days would be more normal.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Yes sorry, two pills. 
Even if i end up losing some of the tiny amounts of dust(!) my mum can get some more on monday.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Do you think Ive caught it in time. 
When hes calm he doesnt breath through his mouth but if he eats he does and has to for a while afterwards.


----------



## Pidgey

Yes, you probably have. Believe me, we've seen far and away worse. I'll go fetch a link to a thread or two of some really bad ones and then you can see just how horrible it can be.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=21920

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=199495&postcount=9

There are others with huge lumps in their throats that distend them pretty badly. We've had a number of those die. Pdpbison once had one that had canker in the crop that wasn't seen until it rotted the crop out and the baby died. It can be really bad.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Incidentally, the one in the top link lost his entire upper beak back to his forehead (behind the ceres) and the one in the lower link lost his lower beak from below the ceres forward. Those are the kinds of injuries that usually cause the birds to die of starvation rather than asphyxiation or by way of pure illness due to food ultimately leaking out of the GI into the bird's body.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I just fed him a couple of peas and they keep getting stuck in his mouth, he shook his head and the pea flew out and he stopped mouth breathing. 
This doesnt happen if i feed him half a pea. Im uploading a video of what he does after ive fed him a pea. 

Also I gave him 1/10th of a metronidazole tablet at about 2:30pm today, when should I give his next dose(and how? seeing as he cant swallow whole peas properly)? Would it be ok to give him it at about 7/8pm.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

This is after feeding him a pea. Right after this video he shook his head and the pea flew out and he stopped mouthbreathing.

Click to view video


----------



## Pidgey

Yeah, for today that sounds fine. You'll want to give him tomorrow's first dose in the morning and the second in the evening about 12 hours apart.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you!
How should I feed him the medication? He can only eat small peas. Could i add some water to the powder and inject it into the peas and feed him those. Although this will mean eating several small peas. 
Anyone got any tips to get him to eat some seeds, or should i wait until after his throat has got better as i expect seed could get stuck easily around the yellow mass. 

Just in case and becuase I worry, if he cant breath becuase he gets a pea stuck, should I use some tweezers to get it out?
Will the yellow canker stop growing now?


----------



## Pidgey

The yellow mass should start diminishing in size within a day or so. Every now and then you run across a more virulent or resistant strain and then you have to go to another drug. Let's hope that doesn't happen here. Any way that gets the drug into the bird for a certainty should work. Like I said, I just drop the pieces of the pill into the bird's beak with his or her head tilted back and the beak being held wide open. I look to see that it's sitting down beyond the airway typically. If you manage another way that works, then there you go!

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

You should start to notice some results within 48 hours, though it won't necessarily be dramatic. The lump will seem to "melt" slowly away, just be patient. Augmenting feedings w/peas for now is fine while still providing small seeds for the bird to self-feed with. As for giving the piece of pill, you could also try crushing it and adding just a bit
of water and then use a dropper to give it to the bird. If you place the end 
of the dropper to the back of the throat and allow the medicine treated water
to slowly be released, it may have the additional benefit of making contact
w/the lump in addition to being systemic. If all best intentions don't work,
then just plain getting it in there w/out doing damage in the process is the
important goal.

If you aren't getting results, then another member of the Canker (Trichomonas) medications can actually be added to the Metronidazole/Flagyl
dosing.

fp


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

hopefully he'll be getting better tomorrow. 
I just tried feeding him some peas and the small ones get stuck to the roof of his mouth and the big ones get stuck in front of the lump. He has to shake them out of his mouth. He is swallowing the odd one or two but i dont know how much he's in-taking. 
If I drop the liquid into the back of his throat I will have to really hold him to stop him from moving, which i will try but if he really struggles ill try the peas again.
Its like a neverending circle, I cant get him to swallow the meds to stop the canker thats stopping him swallowing the meds.

When I hold a pea up infront of him he becomes alert and takes it from my hand/spoon/bowl. After hes swallowed it he sits back down fluffs up and looks like he's going to sleep. Is this something I should be worried about. 

O yea...and he can definately fly, found out while cleaning out his cage.


----------



## feralpigeon

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> hopefully he'll be getting better tomorrow.
> I just tried feeding him some peas and the small ones get stuck to the roof of his mouth and the big ones get stuck in front of the lump. He has to shake them out of his mouth. He is swallowing the odd one or two but i dont know how much he's in-taking.
> If I drop the liquid into the back of his throat I will have to really hold him to stop him from moving, which i will try but if he really struggles ill try the peas again.
> Its like a neverending circle, I cant get him to swallow the meds to stop the canker thats stopping him swallowing the meds.
> 
> When I hold a pea up infront of him he becomes alert and takes it from my hand/spoon/bowl. After hes swallowed it he sits back down fluffs up and looks like he's going to sleep. Is this something I should be worried about.
> 
> O yea...and he can definately fly, found out while cleaning out his cage.



If you are injecting the peas w/the medicine, and the bird is having difficulty
in swallowing these, that's a no go in terms of a medicating option. I'd leave
smaller seeds in the cage for the bird allowing the bird to eat at will if wanting to.... If the bird is having problems eating but not drinking, you could put vitamins in the water for the bird. All in all, the canker will be receding
shortly...or should be.....so you might want to wait for this to happen and
see where the bird goes w/self feeding.

For dripping medication down the back of the throat, you can try the "Bird
Burrito" method as one of my vets 'coined' it. Get a hand towel or
pillow case folded lengthwise and wrap it around and over the shoulders and
wings to immobilize the wings. Make sure the wrap is not so tight that the 
bird can't breath  , then try medicating w/out the obstruction of flapping
wings.

fp


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

When he gets the food stuck he stretches his neck up and keeps trying to swallow. 
How should i feed him?


----------



## feralpigeon

Some folks soak kitten or puppy chow in warm water and push small
pieces to the back of the throat allowing the bird to swallow on it's own.

I sometimes use my baby finger to push the piece in, I think I've heard
Fred suggest a pencil w/a good or fairly new eraser tip on it.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> When he gets the food stuck he stretches his neck up and keeps trying to swallow.
> How should i feed him?


If whole food is getting stuck, personally, I'd be using baby formula which
you may not have on hand. If you can "liquify" what you are trying to feed 
the bird and drip down the back of the throat, fine, if not, just leave small
seeds in the cage for the bird and wait to see how the bird is doing in another
day or so.

fp


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

thank you, ill drop his metronidazole at about 7 and feel him some peas ensuring he completely swallows them. 
I dont have any puppy food but i have dog and cat buiscuits which i could break up into smaller bits and soak. The cat buiscuits have a higher protein content and are made by iams. Are these suitable?


----------



## Skyeking

Pidgey said:


> Anyhow, I PMed Treesa to look in on this one because maybe you've got something that might help slow it down and she can work through what you've got and consider it. We've always promoted Apple Cider Vinegar for a variety of things because the acidity (acetic acid) can have an effect on the quantity of disease-causing organisms. It's possible that straight vinegar could have a similar effect but I'll have to take a look at it--hopefully somebody else already knows about that.
> Pidgey



Sorry this is late, but I am up to my eyeballs  .....just got done talking to my friend/rehabber Doreen, and she mentioned a few things to try for the canker, that will help, besides the ACV.

I would also include the colloidal silver for secondary infections.

You can try garlic caps, as it cleans the blood and builds immunities, Neem oil, 

Echinacea/golden seal in alcohol free drops, try that for 3 days, and last she mentioned L Leisine, which is one new one she is going to try. It is an antiviral that rids humans of cold sores inside and out and it just may work for canker in the birds.


----------



## Maggie-NC

After you soak the food, feed small pieces and after each piece, gently stretch her neck up a little and massage her throat. That usually helps move the food down to the crop.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I got him out at 8 to give him his 2nd dose of metrondizole, and before i could take him out(i put his cage on the kitchen floor) hehopped onto the perch on the open door and became very interested in the pea i was preparing in my hand. He is obsessed with peas! If its green he'll run/fly to it! 
I also accidentally spilt some seed on the floor and after me and my dad did bird impressions(i.e. pecking the floor with our hands), he started to try and peck at seeds. 5 minutes later he managed to swallow a couple of small seeds. We let him wander around the floor pecking at seeds and the occassional pea. He is so much brighter! Hes much more interested in his surroundings. We managed to give him his metrondizole as well. 
He still is getting the peas and seeds a bit stuck but isnt wheezing on them as much. He spat out 2/3 tiny seeds which were covered in snot like goo. i wiped his face and there doesnt seem to be too much of that. His wounds are scabbing over a bit but we're still soaking them in salt water and i was reasured this morning when my vet told me theyre doing well.

Thank you for your help and support. 
I will continue to post his progress and if anything else pops up-which hopefully it wont.
Thanks again
XxX


----------



## Pidgey

Well, it sounds like he's turning the corner and is on his way up and out. It also sounds like he's gotten over the typical woodie fears and concerns about humans, too. It's going to be interesting getting him out into the wilds again and you might need to start doing some research on what it is that they normally eat "out there" and seeing what you can do to teach him how to recognize those items. You might ask Cynthia about that kind of stuff.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Yes, absolutely. 
I did worry about him becoming too tame but last year I hand reared a 3 day old starling and although he did become very attatched to me and my family, he has been suscessfully been released into the wild. 
We're just concentrating on him getting better for now. 
He had access to wild bird seed(sunflower seeds, corn etc) and im looking up what they would eat in the wild. 

i know they eat berries so im going to look up which one which we have in our garder they can eat.


----------



## Feefo

This is from a post from Canaryjayne:

Woodpigeons also eat: 

Berries: ivy,buckthorn,blackberry,Hawthorn,rose hip,dogwood,spindle-tree,elderberry.

Roots: sugar beet, turnip

tree flowers and leaf buds: ash,beech,elm,hawthorn,hazel, willow,oak, elderberry

Leaves: Various clovers,charlock,cultivated mustard,poppy,
knotgrass,scarlet pimpernel,sheeps sorrel,dandelion,speedwell,grass,sugar beet,buttercup

Seeds and nuts: wild oat, wild pansy,chickweeds,common vetch,knotgrass.
Beech nuts, Hazel nuts,Acorns.


Hope this helps.

Jayne


----------



## Pidgey

I wonder how much they need to be taught what each one of those look like and how to eat it or whether all that knowledge just comes out as instinct?

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

I 'wood' imagine that wood pigeons would get a fair amount from group experience in the flock and that they would also have an instinctual nature
as well.

http://www.oiseaux.net/oiseaux/columbiformes/wood.pigeon.html

http://www.avianweb.com/woodpigeons.html

http://www.birdguides.com/html/vidlib/species/Columba_palumbus.htm

http://www.garden-birds.co.uk/birds/woodpigeon.htm

fp


----------



## Feefo

Woodies learn a lot by watching other woodies. When they feed as a flock the more experienced ones that are higher up in the pecking order feed in the middle , the ones on the outer ring watch out for predators and watch the experienced ones and learn. The outer circle is a bad position to be in, though, because they get less food. But this is why they are better off if released where they can join a flock for feeding (unlike ferals they don't roost or "loll" with large numbers of other pigeons.)

If he is having problems eating whole peas then cut them in quarters. Ideally he should also be receiving Poly Aid (to keep hungry birds from starving). You could also try very small seed like millet. Woodpigeons also can take day old wholmeal bread that has been dipped in water. But you must keep your eye on where the peas are going.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

He's eating seed on his own at the moment. He sneezes every now and again but he has eaten quite alot. We're going to try and find some of the natural food sources listed. 
He's very bright and alert and interested in everything thats going on. 
thanks


----------



## Pidgey

Has all the yellow stuff either started disappearing or gone away completely yet? Sometimes these things go pretty miraculously.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hes eating all his seeds now-apart from sunflower seeds!. Hes not coughing at all. I checked his mouth and could only see a small amount of yellow round the egde of his mouth. Hes grooming himself and i let him out today and he flew a couple of times. Only problem is he has no tail feathers at all so only flys in a straightline. 
XxX


----------



## pdpbison

Hi WildlifeVetToBe,



Pigeons can fly perfectly well with no Tail Fathers at all.


I have one here who lost all his in a terrible Dog mauling, and though all else healed very well, his Tail Feathers never grew back.

He flys with great Aerobatic skll and applomb and it is in no way a handicap for anything but maybe hi-speed sustained flight, where in theory, they would have a little more aerodynamic Drag if no Tail Feathers are present.

I used to suppose that Tail feathers were crucial for landings, but he has shown me wrong on that...he lands perfectly, takes tight corners on Wing with speed and grace, and in every way takes off, flys and lands superbly.


Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

> Only problem is he has no tail feathers at all so only flys in a straightline.


He will need his tail feathers before release, they act as a rudder and will help him escape from sparrowhawks. Despite their size wood pigeons need to be, and are, much more flexible in flight than feral pigeons

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Today is day 10 of his metronidazole course. Ive managed to look down his throat twice and the canker has completely gone. I cant see any signs of canker anymore. His wounds have healed really well and unless you dig through his feathers you cant see the wounds atall. Hes really looking after himself, grooming and feeding/drinking fine. Would i be right to continue to keep an eye on his wounds and just bathe them if needed. He isnt and wont be on any other meds. 
Will check to see whether his tail feathers are growing tonight.


----------



## Reti

Sounds like it is safe now to take him off the meds. He seems to be doing great. You've done a great job with him/her.

Thank you for the update.

Reti


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you, hes absolutely great and im so glad i could help him. 

Only problem i noticed when i came home from school was that he still doesnt seem to be able to swallow peas! I gave him three as a treat today, and i thought it would be a good idea especially as he'll be eating berrys soon. He ended up coughing and sneezing though so i opened his mouth and the peas were in him mouth again. I had to remove one. Thing in I have checked his mouth and there is no canker to be seen. 

Anyway, apart from this, thank you everyone for your help. As you may have guessed I want to specalise in rescuing injured wildlife as a vet. 

Thanks again(from me and Roger the woodie)
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ive just checked on him and he still cant swallow the two peas i gave him, im going to try and remove the peas and check his mouth and throat again.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Tried to remove the peas but when i first looked it was right at the back of his throat. Looked again and i cant see it at all. Ive let him out and he can still fly and is eating seed very enthusiastically but is sneezing almost constantly between feeding. He is also opening his mouth a tiny fraction when he's breathing. As i said before, there is no sign of canker anywhere in his mouth.

Any idea what to do?


----------



## Feefo

How long had the peas been in his mouth? Did he pick them up himself or did you feed them to him? 

There may still be a canker nodule in the throat, it sometimes takes time for them to become to detach themselves from the throat or crop after they have become localised. Run your fingers gently down the throat and feel the crop for any lumps. If there are nodules a vet might be able to tease them free.

This is something that I have yet to try, but you might be able to see if there is anything in the part of the throat that is not visible by shining a small torch down his throat or against his throat in the dark...I think the effect could be similar to when you shine a torch against your hand and can see the bones...but as I said this is just my theory.  

Metronidazole can be used for up to 14 days, but if he needs further treatment I would switch to Spartrix now.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I have enough metronidazole to continue for further 4 days. When i gave him the pea I held it and he tool it from my hand and "swallowed" it himself. That was at about 16:15 today.
I have no idea where to get spartrix from...any ideas in kent, UK? Vet doesnt have any.


----------



## Feefo

Please let me send you a course of Spartrix. They come in packets of 30 and the most you will need is 5. I have plenty.

I can send them to the vet's surgery if you prefer to remain anonymous.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

No i dont mind, thank you so so so much. Would you like me to send my address via private message?

What should i do about the pea? or should it be ok?


----------



## Feefo

Yes, if you could PM me your address, that will be fine.

Have you got a pair of tweezers? If so, sterilize them (just in case) and use them to fish the peas out, if you can.

CYnthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just checked on him and hes not mouth breathing. He is shaking though, not sure whether thats just because hes teriffied of me because i keep putting discusting medicine down his throat or hes cold...either way, hes now in a warm dark room with fresh water and food, which he is eating.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Everythings fine, after three days of spartrix he isnt coughing at all and can eat peas no problems. His only problem is that
1) his tail feathers still havnt grown back
2)He's getting extremely restless. Im letting him out 1/2 times a day for about 30-90 minutes(today for 2hrs). I noticed yesterday he had a sore blister on one of his toes which looked like it had been bleeding. I thought it was the plastic perch rubbling on his foot so attatched the softer plastic brach higher up in his cage. Only thing is there isnt much room and this morning i woke up to find both of his feet were bleeding and there are now two blisters which are approx 0.4cm across on two separate toes. 
What should i do? Im worried that if we release him too early he wont have been shown what to eat in the wild as we found him when he still would have been fed by his parents. 
He spends alot of the time feeding and resting but hes trying to escape and flutter in his cage alot and i dont want him to get any more hurt. 
Im going to try and find some suitable berries today and hopefully that will keep him occupied. 

Any sugestions to prevent his feet becomeing anymore injured will be very much appreciated. 
Thank you


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just looking in the garden ive found some pyracantha berries and some red berries at the end of a bush with red leaves?!
Trying to find out what they are.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Are pyracantha berries ok for a wood pigeon to eat, because ill attatch som in his cage if they are.


----------



## roy-me-boy

Woodpigeon love Hawthorn Berries.I have never seen them eat Pyracanth though.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, well, the other plant is berberis. I will try and find some hawthorn berries


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Managed to find some hawthorn berries and have hung them in his cage. He's sleeping at the moment and im hoping hell seem more interested in the berries later. 

Unfortunately the fireworks claimed one feathery friend as a victim last night. My dad found a stunned pigeon in the car park where he works and knowing that we're already looking after one, brought it home in a box. Sadly he died overnight. We expect he was scared by some local fireworks and flew into a car/window/wall.


----------



## Feefo

I am so sorry about the stunned pigeon. One memory I can't erase is of the millenium celebrations in Italy when they released white doves and had a firework display simultaneously. How can people be so stupid and heartless?



> i woke up to find both of his feet were bleeding and there are now two blisters which are approx 0.4cm across on two separate toes.


Sorry to have to suggest this, but are you certain that these are due to injury as opposed to pox? Can you post a photo?

If it is not pox then this is the stage at which you could pass him on to a trusted sanctuary where he can mix with other woodies and learn from them before release.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

omgdness i hope not!!!!! images loading as we speak


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Please please someone (i pray) tell me it isnt pox. It has dried up today and not bleeding. 
I was really happy today as after feeding him some hawthorn berries(which hes not sure of but is trying to peck at-will be having daily) and i can clearly see his tail feathers re growing. He no longer has any canker at all and can eat as many peas as he wants without coughing/having any problems swallowing. His literally only problem is his toes. 


Thanks again..hope the images are ok


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe




----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Please can someone tell me if this is pox? If so what should i do? I understand its a virus and he like a human other birds have to just "get through it". am i right or ???


----------



## Pidgey

Yes, pox passes through. There are two forms: Dry Pox and Wet (Diphtheritic) Pox. The second one happens inside where you don't normally see and is often fatal. The first one makes wart-like lesions that go away in time and leaves the bird immune thereafter. It's contagious so you want to keep a bird isolated until he's over it. They often get the lesions from mosquito and other parasite bites, and the lesions usually appear on unfeathered skin like the feet and around the eyes and beak.

I can't tell if that's pox but it could be.

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

I have lightened the images a bit, perhaps someone familiar with pox in wood pigeons (Tania!) can give an opinion.

I have been crying "pox" all week. One of the suspected pox cases was canker, another two were some sort of mite. Today I noticed that the wood pigeon that has canker also has a lump on his toe. It is in the same position as the lump on your woodie's toe and a layer of skin appears to have been scraped off, but it isn't bleeding. I don't think it is pox (I can't imagine that a mosquitoe would bite under the toe while a pigeon is perching, but if it changes I will take him to the sanctuary for a check.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

OK, so i just need to keep his cage clean and keep him isolated. 
Any further advise and info on his condition will be very much appreciated.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

He is otherwise fine himself, my parents and I have seen him eating the hawthorn berries today. He is eating(ALOT) of seed and drinking fine. His wounds have completely healed with not even the slightest mark to shown where they were and his feathers are growing back.


----------



## Feefo

Tania has looked at the pictures and suspects pox. They have had a lot of cases in Wildcare so she is the person who has seen the most cases in wood pigeons. Feral pigeons cope with the disease much better than wood pigeons…the effect on woodies can be devastating. 

I hope that neither Roger nor my Wedgewood have pigeon pox, but they will need to be kept separate from other birds . If it is pox then we will have to monitor the course of the disease and consider euthanasia if there are signs of internal pox.  It is good news that Roger is eating well... keep a close eye on his appetite and his breathing.

The link below is to a very good article on avian pox , it is a UK site and mentions that wood pigeons tend to get the disease in winter. It has some distressing pictures of external pox, but pigeons can recover from the external form of the disease.

http://www.coldarbor.demon.co.uk/index_files/Page1175.htm

Among the diseases that can appear similar to pox is the scaly leg mite. This is what Hallsood thought that the white pigeon with a bleeding lesion on the toes had. He advised me to treat that one, and the one who had what I considered could be a pox lesion by his cere with vaseline, which smothers the mites. It might be worth smearing Rogers feet with vaseline, if it is a mite then that should stop the progress. You should also worm him. THis is a link to an article on scaly leg and scaly face mite.

http://www.avianweb.com/scaly.html


Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

If he does have pox, are there any signs i can look out for in terms of growths on his feet? There havnt been any more growing since those photos were taken. He is still eating/drinking fine and ive again seen him eating hawthorn berries. 
Can they get internal pox from external pox and what would be the signs for internal pox except from not eating?


----------



## Pidgey

Internal pox sometimes can be seen down the throat but I expect it's usually discovered in a necropsy. He sounds like he's doing fine, though, so I wouldn't worry overmuch. 

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

I had a woodie with internal pox as well as external pox and it was very visible. His whole mouth filled up with white growth, he also had matching nodules on his beak and cere. It was terrible and that is why I fear pox so much.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

Did he live?

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

The supected pox on Rogers feet are bigger. There are three of them, all of which are about 0.8-1 cm in diametre. He has two on his right foot and one on his left. Theyre not bleeding at all though. Ive managed to find some hawthorn berries which he is eating fine..and again, alot of. Because he was getting so stressed he's now being let out of his cage and free in a room. He is flying better as his tail feathers are coming through. 

My question is, could he die from this?? and if not, how long will it take for him to recover?
He's otherwise fine in himself, eating, drinking, and preening himself.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ive also given him some dog rose-rosehip.


----------



## Feefo

I hope that the information this site will help answer your questions. I have copied it below as there are distressing photos on the site/: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html

Clinical Signs

Clinical signs observed with avian pox are weakness, emaciation, difficulty in swallowing and breathing, vision problems, a reduction in egg production, soiled facial feathers, conjunctivitis, edema of the eyelids and the presence of the characteristic wart-like growths on the unfeathered portions of the skin and/or formation of a diphtheritic membrane on the upper portion of the digestive tract.

Pathology

Avian pox occurs in 2 forms, cutaneous (dry) and diphtheritic (wet). The cutaneous form is the most commonly observed and is a self-limiting infection with the lesions regressing and forming scars. Initially, this form of pox appears as a small white, pink or yellow vesicle (blister) on unfeathered parts of the skin (feet, legs, base of the beak, eye margins and head). The vesicle is a result of the separation of the surface layer of the skin with the formation of pockets of watery fluid rich in multiplying virus. The vesicles become nodules as they increase in size, coalesce and burst. Lymph from the cells congeals and scabs are formed. The surface of the nodules become rough and dry and the color changes to dark brown or black. The size and number of nodules present depends on the stage and severity of the infection. Bacteria may gain access causing secondary infection and resulting in a purulent discharge (pus) and necrosis. Eventually, the scab falls off and a scar forms at the site. It takes 2 to 4 weeks for complete healing of the affected areas on the skin providing the lesions aren't too extensive thereby preventing the bird from feeding.

The diphtheritic form involves the mouth, throat, trachea and lungs and consists of yellow or white, moderately raised, moist cheese-like necrotic areas. A diphtheritic membrane forms and may restrict air intake and result in labored breathing and possible suffocation.

Histologically, intracytoplasmic inclusion bodies (Bollinger bodies) are present in the infected skin and respiratory tract mucosa. In the diphtheritic form of the disease, nodular hyperplasia (increase in the number of cells) of the mucosa is observed.

Diagnosis

A presumptive diagnosis of avian pox can be made due to the gross lesions on the body. Confirmation of avian pox is accomplished by microscopic examination for the characteristic Bollinger bodies. Virus isolation by transmission of the organism via egg inoculation, serological results and polymerase chain reaction can also be a means of confirming the disease.

Treatment

There is no known treatment for avian pox in wild birds. In captive situations, there are a variety of treatments that have been used along with supportive care to treat the pox lesions and to prevent secondary infections in various avian species. These treatments consist of removing skin lesions and utilizing sodium bicarbonate or Lugol's solution of iodine washes, removing the diphtheritic membrane from the mouth and throat and swabbing the area with Lugol's solution of iodine, bathing the eyes with a 1-2% saline solution, and raising the environmental temperature. In all cases, providing assistance for recovery may spread the infection to other parts of the skin or to other birds.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

He has no lesions on his face, im keeping a close eye on him. Hes eating fine. 
Im posting some pictures that ive just taken.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

By the way the third image down shows three little seeds infront of his toe..theyre not lumps. 


And Roger just showing off!!


----------



## Feefo

Ouch!!! I am going to send you some Tamodine to treat the lesions. That is a form of iodine that is safe for birds.

In the previous post with the link to the website it says:



> providing assistance for recovery may spread the infection to other parts of the skin


 so you will have to be very careful not to touch the lesions. I will send a dropper with the Tamodine so that you can put the Tamodine on each lesion without touching it with your fingers or with the dropper. Unless anyone knows of a reason not to, it might be a good idea to keep the feet covered between treatments.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Again thank you! Would it be ok to use vaseline on the lesions in between treatments and is it possible for external(dry) pox to become internal(wet) pox for example through scratcing his face/preening?

Roger and Charlotte


----------



## TAWhatley

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Again thank you! Would it be ok to use vaseline on the lesions in between treatments and is it possible for external(dry) pox to become internal(wet) pox for example through scratcing his face/preening?
> 
> Roger and Charlotte


I wouldn't use any vaseline or other lubricant. We want the lesions to dry up and fall off. A lubricant would tend to keep them moist and would also "attract" any stray seeds or other debris from the floor of the cage or carrier. 

I don't know the answer to your question about the pox becoming internalized from scratching and preening .. I do think it would be unlikely but don't honestly know.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Roger and Charlotte,




I'd imagine that Epsom Salt Soaks ( if he'd hold still! ) , or dilute Hydrogen Peroide Soaks or wet blottings with a Q-Tip, should be fine, and would help them dry up even...


Calamine Lotion similarly...could be dabbed on and would help dry them as well as disinfect somewhat.



Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

I agree with Terry about the vaseline, it is used for mites because it suffocates them but pox has to dry out. I am sending you some sterile swabs and micropore. If you wrap a single layer of swab round the affected foot/feet and then secure it around the leg with micropore I hope it will protect the wound but allow it to dry out.

The scabs, when they come off, will be infectious, so dispose of any dressings carefully.

The Tamodine stains, so be careful when you handle it, but you must also be careful about where you put the container and how you apply it to the foot. A flat cleanable surface would be best. I will send you some latex gloves and plastic aprons as well.

I don't know how internal pox develops. I will do some research on that. Ordinary pox needs to enter the blood stream which is why it is spread so easily by mosquitoes.

I will post the parcel today, hopefully it will arrive by Monday. But two parcels that I posted at the same time to different parts of the country arrived some days apart. 

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

Well, I did a bit of research and the first 10 sites that I visited said the same thing...word for word, and didn't explain why wet pox developed in some cases and not in others. After checking another few sites I found a second version, but that was largely lifeted for the link I provided yesterday.

So I haven't found the answer!

The St Tiggywinkles handbook just says wild birds usually get the dry form of pox which is mild and self limiting. It mentions that if knocked the lesions can cause a small amount of haemorrhage and that the bleeding can usually be stemmed with a caustic pencil or a wound powder. (In the absence of these I would hold the foot up and apply direct pressure or use corn flour.)

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Cant thank you enough for everything. I will tell you if they arrive on monday, in the mean time i will try to keep the toes dry and clean. Ive been wiping them with weak salt water and then drying them. 
Hes such a sweety and its great seeing him develop. His tail feathers are now about 3cm long and just poking through! Im praying so much that he'll get over all these infections and eventually be fit and healthy enough to be released. He hasnt eaten many hawthorn berries today but has eaten plenty of seed...and is very fussy and spends alot of time sorting his seed and chucking what he doesnt like on the floor before eating what he likes. 

Again, thank you so much.
Charlotte


----------



## Feefo

HI Charlotte,

Unfortunately I missed the post, I was convinced the our post office didn't close early on Saturday.

I will send you the parcel by Special Delivery tomorrow so that it is guaranteed to arrive on Tuesday.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you. Ill post when it arrives. Hes still happy in himself, preening, feeding etc. but his feet are so painful.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Pigeons fine, his toes are all at about the same stage, they are red and about 1cm in diameter. Apart from his feet, he is still eating fine, I have seen him pecking and picking berries from a hawthorn branch i put in his cage and he is eating plenty of seed...although he spends as much time chucking his seed everywhere as he does eating them!
I think they have bled a bit but not as much as before. Hes spending alot of time out of his cage at the moment which is destressing him alot. 
XxX


----------



## Feefo

I sent a parcel by Special Delivery yesterday, it should arrive before 1pm today.


Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you it arrived today, his feet have got worse and all toes are red, inflammed and have bled, although it has now dried. The skin above his toe is swollen aswell as below. Hes still going however...eating/drinking and preening. Im being very vigilant..but can tell he is in pain with his feet. 

Thanks again for the treatment and things, I have wrapped the effected toes in a layer of the swab material after dropping iodine on them. Hope this helps. Will keep you posted!


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, well, i did put the layer of swab on but they have already all come off. It looks like one of his toes has bled but it maybe just the iodine. I tried to reput the swab on but he was getting more and more stressed, deep breathing and seriously shaking. 
I will reapply tomorrow.


----------



## Pidgey

Does the deep breathing and shaking only occur due to the handling?

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

> I tried to reput the swab on but he was getting more and more stressed, deep breathing and seriously shaking.


I keep forgetting that he is a woodie. Even my tamest ones will get very stressed and start open mouth breathing when held even though they allow us to stroke their breasts and will perch on us. It might be best to leave the feet uncovered .

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, and yes, it only happens when he is handled. 
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

*Feet worsening*

Roger is great, his plumage is stunning and turning a gorgous pink colour around his breast. His tail feathers have grown back and hes eating/drinking fine. BUT his feet are much worse. There are still only three lesions on his toes but they are much bigger. The pain from the pressure of them must be horendous. My dad thinks that he may lose the end of three of his toes because of them. I am dropping iodine on them once a day. 
He has had the lesions for roughly three weeks now. They are red and inflammed but not bleeding or oozing pus at all. 
I will try and take some photos. They are very large compared with before, about 1.5cm at their widest.


----------



## TAWhatley

I'm glad Roger is getting better aside from his poor, sore feet. Hopefully it won't be much longer before those pox lesions disappear. New pictures would be helpful just in case there might be something other than pox going on.

Terry


----------



## MaryOfExeter

Poor little Roger...I feel sorry for his poor feet. Hopefully they will get better soon 
Pox usually clears up in about 4-6 weeks, doesn't it? So he should be getting better soon....(unless there's something else in the picture of course)? I hope so. It sounds like it would be very painful to be in his shoes right now.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

These are the photos i just managed to get. Ive lightened them slightly to make them easier to see.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

This is just to show him before and after, the 1st photo shows him several weeks ago when he had canker and the second one now.


----------



## Feefo

He is still very young. YOu have done so well by him, but there is a possibility that he will lose the tips of his toes. That shouldn't affect his survival. However, I think that when the pox is cleared he should go to a sanctuary for the winter as there won't be enough food around and he doesn't know how to forage.

I don't know how you feel about this but ideally I would like him to spend the winter with Hallswood and to be released into their woods when there is natural food available. They will be able to supplement his diet.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Of course, what ever is best for him. Ive been giving him what he would naturally eating, e.g berries, some roots etc. for the time being.


----------



## Feefo

> Ive been giving him what he would naturally eating, e.g berries, some roots etc. for the time being.


Yes, and that's great, but it struck me today as I was walking the dogs that most of the hawthorn berries and acorns have already disappeared. The kind of food that they will be able to eat changes so quickly during the winter. If he was part of a flock he would look to the older pigeons for guidance, but we don't know if he will be able to join a flock immediately or be accepted by one. Also, the last time I visited Hallswood I was looking at the collared doves and was told that they would be held during the winter and released in spring. Winter is a hard time even for experienced birds.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Yes, I wont be releasing him until after winter is over, im only concerned that i wont be able to get to hallswood because its an at least three hour drive from me, but i will email any wildlife sanctuarys near me. What ever happens ill do my best. Im keeping an eye on a flock of wood pigeons that live near me to.


----------



## John_D

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> Yes, I wont be releasing him until after winter is over, im only concerned that i wont be able to get to hallswood because its an at least three hour drive from me, but i will email any wildlife sanctuarys near me. What ever happens ill do my best. Im keeping an eye on a flock of wood pigeons that live near me to.


If it does seem advisable for pigeon to go to Hallswood, that can probably be worked out. I have to drive the Kent stretch of the M25 to get to Cynthia's.

John (pigeon chauffeur  )


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just to give you an update, his toes are the same but do appear to have dryed out. Again, overall condition looks fine. Only thing ive noticed today was a tiny yellow spot on the left side of his beak, oval shape about 3-4mm at its longest point. Its not bubbled or swolled, literally looks like colouring but yellow...will keep an eye on it. And he is eating like a horse!

XxX
Charlotte and Roger


----------



## Pidgey

Finally heading in the right direction? Sometimes, you have to have an ungodly amount of patience with these things.

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Yes, i cannot wait until I see him happy, healthy and back in the wild. 
I dont know whether Im being paranoid, but im siting fairly close to him and can hear him , every now and again, breath heavily out. Hes not doing it now and is going to sleep. I really love him, poor sweety. I just hope he gets over everything fine and becomes the gorgous bird he was meant to be! He is so worth it!
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im afraid the yellow mark on his beak has started to become convex(a bit bubbled), not by very much, and the width of it hasnt changed much but it has grown. His toes are so swollen that one of his toes must now be 0.5cm longer and on the other two you cant see the nails because of the extent of the swelling. Its really frustrtaing though because hes eating, drinking etc. and is very lively and interested in his surroundings. 
Any advise would be very appreciated.


----------



## Feefo

I have to confess that I am very concerned about this new development. Put a bit of Tamodine on the lump outside his beak and keep an eye on the inside of his mouth, but do that carefully to avoid the risk of contaminating the inside of his mouth.

I am going to do a bit of research to see if there is a homeopathic remedy that can help.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

Yeah, doesn't sound good. Go take a look at the picture of this bird and see if it's similar:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=241553&postcount=8

Pidgey


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Its not to that stage yet, im putting drops of iodine(for birds) on his feet, should i do the same for his face, or maybe just with the tip of some cotton wool with some iodine.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just to note, the yellow looking peices at the end of his beak are peices of seed, there is only one "growth".


----------



## TAWhatley

The growth could be a pox lesion, and if so, you definitely want to dab it with a drying agent such as the iodine. Just be careful not to get any in the eyes, nares, or mouth. That's quite a handsome bird!

Terry


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

i know, hes so gorgous, hopefully he'll start to win over the pox and we'll release him in the spring.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Can pigeon pox affect dogs/cats/other small furries or just other birds?
Today his feet are again larger and red as before. I have put iodine on all three affected toes and dapped it on his beak using sterile cotton wool and gloves. It has got bigger.


----------



## Pidgey

How are the toenails doing? Do they seem like they're solidly in place?

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

Pigeon pox doesn't affect dogs and cats or other furries Your question made me think, though...I don't remember ever hearing of a pox that affects them

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hi, Hes still the same, his toes are slightly bigger and appear bent, i can only hope the lesions fall off soon so he can start healing. The lesion on his beak has continued to grow and im putting iodine on it morning and evening. 
Because of this my parents are concerned that he'll get much worse before he gets better so are asking me to think about having him put down. I really need to know what are his chances of completely getting over this, especially as he now has a lesion on his beak. He is still himself and is eating drinking and when possible, flying around the room. If he will make a full recovery, how long will it take. 
Also, the image posted previously to show me an exaple of pox on a white pigeon-did he fully recover, as i feel this would give my parents more hope that little roger can survive, although it will take a while. Im remaining positive, but please be realistic. 
Thanks again, 
Charlotte and Roger.


----------



## Feefo

Although it may have to be an option in the future, it is too early to consider euthanasia as Roger is well within the time limit for the disease to run its natural course, and in terms of the severity of the disease he is still a mild case. As I mentioned before there might be loss of toes or parts of toes, but that won't affect his ability to survive in the wild.

Keep us updated on any changes, and keep an eye on the inside of his mouth. I promise that if he reaches the stage where it is apparent that he won't recover or that he will suffer too much damage to live a happy life I will tell you.

I wouldn't want either you or Roger to suffer.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you, it makes me feel so much better to hear that. Thank you. Just looking at him now hes just had a feed and is preening himself. Can i ask what will happen to his beak, as you can see from the pictures previously the lump is in the exact same place but has just swollen up a bit. 
Thanks again
Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## Feefo

I don't know what will happen to his beak, but John and I were studying pictures of Piglet who had pox and canker when he came to us. We found there was swelling in exactly the same part of the beak, but neither of us can remember seeing it at the time...it must have just disappeared or fallen off.

If Roger's beak becomes distorted he can still have quality of life up here with us.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I think hes turned a corner now!...touch wood!
The swelling on one of his toes is going down!, its only on the top so underneath the toe is still big, but its a start. The lesion on his beak has predictably grown but isnt causing much discomfort or stopping him eating and as far as i can see there is no pox in his mouth apart from that one lesion. 
Fingers crossed itll only get better from here.


----------



## Reti

That is a great update. Hope he only continues to improve.
Great job.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

That is wonderful news. This has been such a challenging rescue for you, you have done incredibly well.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you, but unfortunately i was wrong and he has developed another lesion in his mouth. It is at the end of his upper beak inside, so he cant completely close his beak. Although at the moment he can and is eating well, if the lesion grows as the one on the side of his beak has, he wont be able to eat properly. I will try and post some images tonight. Any ideas of how, at all i can stop this lesion growing. 
Meanwhile, the lesions on his toes are beginnning to fall off, unfortunately they appear to be taking half the toe with them . There were two large splashes of blood on the floor of his cage last night where one of his toes is beginnning to divide. On lesion has spread underneath and up his toe. I am keeping an eye on it and hoping those lesions will soon be gone. The lesion on the side of his beak has grown but not causing any problems. 
Thanks again for all your help.
Charlotte and Roger


----------



## amyable

Sorry Charlotte, I have no experience to offer but I wanted to just say how much I admire the way you've coped with all the problems Roger has had to date.
I've been following your journey with Roger and I know, if it is at all possible, you'll do all you can to pull him through.
I hope someone will be able to give you some advice to get him over this new set back. Keep the faith. 

Amyable


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

I expected the toes to fall off, our Norwood had a single lump and lost half a toe. But the pox in the mouth is very, very bad news. I promised that I would be honest with you and I have to confess that this has me in tears.

I will ask Hallswood whether they have found a way of pulling a wood pigeon through internal pox, Lyz there uses homeopathy and might have an answer , but I have to warn you that the prognosis is not good and that it will be necessary to consider euthanasia if it gets any worse.

I am usually positive about rescues and have never recommended euthanasia, but I have two reasons for saying this. The first is that although we pulled Norwood through a mild case of external pox, Wildcare in London will always euthanase wood pigeons with pox because they say the pox goes right through them. The second reason is that although we tried to nurse Micklewood through internal pox the disease completely destroyed him before it killed him and we really wished that we had let him go earlier.

I will let you know what Lyz at Hallswood has to say. In the meantime keep Roger safe and warm and remember that he has been far better off with you than he would have been if he hadn't been caught by that cat.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

Would Vitamine "C" help maybe? as an Acerola kind?


And if one gave too much, would it merely make for some runny poops, and no worse?


Certainly, any Antioxidants should help, and Natural ones owule be kindest...so, even some 'Cocktail' or concoction made of several sorts, might be very well worth trying...


Whatchathink?



Phil
l v


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

So, this pox inside his mouth is wet pox? I will post images when i get home.


----------



## mr squeaks

Phil has mentioned GOJI BERRIES many times as an Antioxidant. Any chance of getting Goji Berries in the UK???

Reason I mention them is because of the following information:

According to the package, Goji Berries are the strongest Antioxidant Food on the ORAC SCALE at 25,000+

Listed also, in descending order:

Pomegranates 13,000
Prunes 5,770
Raisins 2,830
Blueberries 2,400
Blackberries 2,036
Strawberries 1,540
Raspberries 1,320

They are also a 500 times richer source of Vitamin C per oz. than oranges. Excellent source of Vit. A, containing more carotenoids than any other food known to man. Contain vitamins B1, B2, B6, E and a rich source of Selenium and Germanium. They contain 18 animo acids (more than bee pollen), 21 trace minerals, and 29 different fatty acids. At 15% per weight, they are also a great source of protein.

For those of you interested, the package goes on to say that G.B.s strengthen the immune system, improve white blood cell count, and may stimulate release of rejuvenative human growth hormone by the pituitary gland. They have been traditionally used for strength building, adding longevity, regulating blood sugar and linked to sexual potency, improved sleep and better vision. Been used in Chinese medicine for their anti-cancer properties

The package claims they are, without a doubt, one of the most nutritionally dense, medicinal foods on earth and a true "SUPER" food.

Hope this helps...

Wishing all the best for Roger!!

Shi


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

cyro51 said:


> Hi Charlotte,
> 
> I will ask Hallswood whether they have found a way of pulling a wood pigeon through internal pox, Lyz there uses homeopathy and might have an answer , but I have to warn you that the prognosis is not good and that it will be necessary to consider euthanasia if it gets any worse.
> 
> I am usually positive about rescues and have never recommended euthanasia, but I have two reasons for saying this. The first is that although we pulled Norwood through a mild case of external pox, Wildcare in London will always euthanase wood pigeons with pox because they say the pox goes right through them. The second reason is that although we tried to nurse Micklewood through internal pox the disease completely destroyed him before it killed him and we really wished that we had let him go earlier.
> 
> I will let you know what Lyz at Hallswood has to say. In the meantime keep Roger safe and warm and remember that he has been far better off with you than he would have been if he hadn't been caught by that cat.
> 
> Cynthia



Thank you, i will try to aid his recovery if at all possible. I will also keep an eye on his appetite.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Images as promised, the arrow points to the growth in his mouth, this is him with his mouth as closed as possible. The lesion on the side of his beak has grown as you can see and although it looks horrible, hasnt caused him any problems eating etc. Two videos are currently loading.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I feel embarassed it looks so bad, but i only noticed it this morning.


----------



## Guest

I think the pox lesion is in a very dangerous spot. If it continues to destroy healthy tissue, the growth cells at the base of the beak will be destroyed and the beak will scissor. At this point, I would suggest taking the bird to a vet in order for this lesion to be cleaned out before it has an opportunity to do permanent damage. This is certainly something I would not suggest you attempt on your own.


----------



## Feefo

> I feel embarassed it looks so bad, but i only noticed it this morning.


Don't be! Micklewood was worse than that when I noticed (he was in an aviary). But check his mouth every day now for new growths.

I have written to Hallswood for advice, they normally don't come on line until later in the evening as they have so many animals to see to.

Shi, Goji berries are sold in the UK, even available in one of our supermarkets (Tesco) and would probably be a natural food for wood pigeons (unlike feral pigeons, the wood pigeon's diet consists of berries as well as seed). 

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

So all hope is not lost....just going to try and persuade my mum to take me to tescos...


sorry no video has loaded, my internet hasnt been working and the file was too big, am trying again.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Do you suggest i get the lesion cleaned out by a vet??


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

video...this is today, litrerally just after the photos above were taken. 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a3NMJkrEM04
im afraid youll have to copy and paste the link


----------



## Guest

" Do you suggest i get the lesion cleaned out by a vet??"

Yes, I'm suggesting that. If the lesion is allowed to continue to grow deeper, there will be permanent damage to the beak. This is why pox can be so dangerous.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ive been reading some previous posts and have read about "Thuja" pills being good for internal pox. Does anyone in the uk know of these, know where i can get them or have any?

Has anyone used these successfully previously?

Thank you


----------



## John_D

A quick Google turned up the sentence "Thuja has an anti-bacterial action and is useful for conditions where there is an overgrowth of tissue."

Should be available at any place selling Homeopathic remedies, maybe even your nearest health food store. Or online, of course.

I couldn't say whether it could work or not, but Pox is a virus, not a bacterial problem. You pays yer money and takes yer choice. Alleged to be good for treating warts, apparently. Maybe it can help reduce the pox lesions.

John


----------



## Maggie-NC

Treesa has done some very good threads on natural treatments.

This is the link to a thread she did on Thuja Occidentalis.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=72577&postcount=1


----------



## Feefo

Thanks for the link, Maggie!

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Today Roger is much the same. He is still eating and has eaten about a handful of seed, although ate more when i held it up to him on his perch. The lesion in his beak, again hasnt grown much. He hasnt moved much today, but thats probably because he hasnt been let out or given a chance to stretch his wings.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Now ive seen this photo I can see the lesion in his mouth has grown. 

Ive found a link about avian pox although it seems to mainly cater and be directed towards birds of prey infected with pox rather than pigeons. He is still alert and flying, Ive let him out and he has flown to a window sill and is seeking out and eating seeds and has eaten a few goji berries. 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=survival+rate++pox+avian&hl=en


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charloote,

The important information is this:

Treatment

*In captive situations, there are a variety of treatments that have been used along with supportive care to treat the pox lesions and to prevent secondary infections in various avian species. These treatments consist of removing skin lesions and utilizing sodium bicarbonate or Lugol's solution of iodine washes, removing the diphtheritic membrane from the mouth and throat and swabbing the area with Lugol's solution of iodine, bathing the eyes with a 1-2% saline solution, and raising the environmental temperature. In all cases, providing assistance for recovery may spread the infection to other parts of the skin or to other birds.*

I have posted some homeopathic remedies, but if the disease progresses do you think that you might be able to somehow get him to a vet in Battersea (Retief Ehlers at the Goddard surgery) to treat him as described above? I could pay the bill because I think he would accept a payment by telephone or post from me. He knows a lot about pigeons as he used to work closely with a friend of mine who rescued pigeons, knows my current vet who would vouch for me and treats pigeons for a friend of mine.

I think that it is the diphtheritic membrane that kills them.

It was just this time last year that we lost Micklewood to pox and I would feel a lot better if I was able to help Roger survive.

Cynthia


----------



## pigeonpoo

That's a kind gesture Cynthia. I'm happy to chip in to help cover the vet's bills. PM me if I can help.

Sue


----------



## Feefo

Thanks Sue!


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Absolutely, if thats what it took, my dad has said he wouldnt rule it out and if it came to it i think i would try and get up to battersea on the train with a friend if it gave him a chance. Of course, this is if he gets worse. What signs am i looking for if his pox progresses? 

Thank you so so much, it would be great to help him through this. 

All my and Rogers love
Charlotte
XxX


----------



## Feefo

> What signs am i looking for if his pox progresses?


More growths inside his mouth, any difficulty in breathing or swallowing.

Be very careful when you handle him and when you put medication on the pox. When applying Tamodin or the lotion put it on one growth with a cottton bud then throw the bud away and wash your hands with soap and water before treating the next lump, to avoid it spreading.

These are the surgery details:

Goddard Veterinary Group
134 St Johns Hill
Battersea
London
SW11 1SL 

Tel: 020 7228 4863
Fax: 020 7228 9213

Vet Retief Ehlers MRCVS 

Consultation hours: 
Monday - Friday Mornings 9 - 11am 
Evenings 4 - 7pm 
Saturday Afternoons 2 - 5pm 
The surgery is closed on Wednesday afternoons.


----------



## amyable

*Helping Roger*

Hi Cynthia, (Roger and Charlotte),

Just logged on to catch up on Roger's progress. I will gladly chip in too if there's a chance to help him.

Janet


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you so so so much, not only are you helping a gorgous bird but now all my friends at school are also following his progress and are inspired by Roger and his story. I know i'll never look at a pigeon in the same way, and hopefully they wont either. 
Roger was good this morning, he slept on top of his cage last night as id put a blanket on there which is softer for his feet. He is still managing to eat and as soon as i got up i saw him eating some seeds and a sunflower seed. I hope it doesnt come to him having to go to the vet in london, but its so reassuring to know if it does come to that, he still has a chance. I am aware of the growth in his mouth, and am keeping a very very close eye on it, i think it will affect how well he can eat but im hoping it doesnt affect his feeding and breathing that much...anyway, Thank you all again for your generosity, we both very much appreciate it. Again, ill keep you posted on his day to day progress. 

If it did come to him having to have the lesions removed, my dad would be quite happy to take me and him to battersea...he already got the postcode plugged into his sat nav!

Thanks again,
All my and Rogers love
Charlotte


----------



## amyable

Hi Charlotte,

You deserve all the help you can get with everything you've coped with to date.  (and Roger of course)!

( Your Dad will need his sat nav, I was born in Battersea, and still got lost there earlier in the year when we drove through)!!! 

Janet


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you so much cyro for the package that came today, im starting the thuja pills in 5 minutes and then giving a second one in three hours as you said. 
What dosage of synulox should i give him?
Roger has been in his cage all day so im going to let him out 30 minutes after giving him his first dose of thuja. 

Thank you!
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Roger is the same today, he is eating and drinking and has flown a couple of times. Again, the lesion in his mouth hasnt grown very much. He had his dose of thuja yesterday. 
Will keep you posted on his progress
Thank you!
XxX


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

The Synulox is half a tablet twice a day.

Janet, that is very kind of you. I am still hoping that the disease has run its natural cpourse and Roger will start to improve.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you everyone for your support...and thank you so so much cyro, he is much the same and again, the growth in his mouth is getting bigger but not to the same rate as the other growths. 
He has no problems eating or drinking.
Thank you


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im comparing Rogers beak with how it is now and how it was 2 days ago and i truely cant see any difference. Hopefully your right cyro and we're going to start to see him really improve. 

Ive been researching about synulox and reading about it on a box that my dog had and as far as ive read it says that synulox is only targeted towards cats and dogs and giving it to other small animals is cautioned? 
Also, i dont know Rogers exact weight but some web pages say to give 1/4 tablet twice a day wheras others 1 tablet for his age(as in 1 a day instead of 1/2 and 1/2).
Being that tiny, as Roger is, is it possible to overdose him with the synulox? 
Ive given him 1/2 a tablet as you said and hes fine...im just curious . 
Also some "people" have said to increase the dose according to the extent of the infection?
Sorry, all these questions...is it ok to be giving him the spartrix(1 a day), synulox and and thuja everyday together.

One final question, I normally get up early to get to school and its really stressing Roger out to treat him, so would it be possible to give him 1 tablet of synulox in the evening rather than 1/2 morning and 1/2 evening? To be honest it doesnt really matter because ive been getting up to give him fresh food and water, he's just really starting to shake when i approach him, hes ok after a second as he obviously realises im not going to do anything to him, but i want to keep him as calm and "chilled" as possible! 
Anyway...apart from that Rogers fine, hes been flying around to day and hes so sweet as he sits on a very high window sill and watches the goings on outside(hes got a lovely view of several gardens and the river medway). 

Roger and I cant thank everyone enough for everything. Hes currently asleep and looking very angelic! 

Thank you again, Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## Feefo

> That's a kind gesture Cynthia. I'm happy to chip in to help cover the vet's bills. PM me if I can help.
> 
> Sue


Thank you Sue! 

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I dont think his pox in his beak has got that much bigger, hes had his breakfast this morning and ive moved him into the living room as he was bored out of his mind in the kitchen. 
He doing ok, preening himself and flying briefly. 
Thank you everyone for offering to help pay for the treatment in london if he needs it, and that you so much cynthia for everything youve done. 
XxX
Charlotte and Roger


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe




----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Sorry i havnt been online all day, Ive been at the vets since i got home from school-not for Roger, but for my dog and involving a very large quantity of chocolate. 
Roger is the same today, got home 5 mins ago to find him sitting on the door quite happily. 
Sorry for my ignorance, thank you cynthia for the medication, is it ok to give him the spartrix and synulox at the same time?
XxX
Charlotte, Roger and a Chocolate monster!


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

Yes, Synulox and Spartrix can be given at the same time.

Is the Chocolate Monster OK? What treatment was he given?

Have you been checking the inside of Roger's mouth? It might be a good idea to weigh him regularly.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hi, yes my dog Poppy should be fine, she was given apomorphine to make her vomit at the vets and is on a drip on observation all night...hopefully we'll pick her up safely in the morning. Shes insured thankfully, i wish Roger was!
Im saving money for him already just in case he needs his diphtheritic membrane removed so I can at least try and help pay for it. 
Ive felt the inside of his mouth-while trying to sprinkle the Thuja powder in his mouth and as far as i could tell its just enlarged where it is. He is still eating but i can tell not as much as previously. I think this is partly because of his mouth and partly due to it being painful to move with his toes. He is still showing interest in food. I can however say(one positive note!) that the swelling on his toes is slowly decreasing. 

Thank you
Charlotte, Roger and Poppy the chocolate monster!


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just to update, Rogers right foot(with two lesions) is becoming quite painful and he has it lefted up alot of the time. Hes not moving around very much because of it. The vast majority of three of his toes is black and looks ready to fall off. 

The lesion in is beak has enlarged but he can still eat at the moment. He isnt having any problems breathing although i sometimes notice that when he breaths his tail moves up and down with every breath. Im managing to give him his meds and hes still fighting through this. Although he doesnt tend to go to his food, I sit with him for 15 minutes in the morning and about 30 minutes in the evening with the container we keep his food in and last night he spent at least an hour sorting through it(!) and eating. 
Should i start using the num vox instead of the thuja pillules?

Thank you
Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Sorry the image is so big...i didnt notice before but in the photo you can see him eating a big of a dried sweetcorn!


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

As you can see, his beak is no longer in line. He is still eating and drinking.


----------



## Guest

The bird is no longer releasable. If allowed to roam in the wild, his upper beak will overgrow the lower beak and without periodic trimming, he will stop being able to pick up food. This is due to the lesion that was allowed to grow into the growth cells of the beak and also implicate the tendons and ligaments that hold the beak in place. This is permanent, irreversible damage.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Oh no, that is really really awful to hear. Where do i go from here?
Should i have it removed? Hes still eating at the moment.
What will happen to his beak now and what will happen overal?


----------



## Guest

Above anything else, you should not attempt to do anything on your own. You need a vet to do it. The growth on the inside of the upper beak has to be removed to stop any further damage in that area. It could go into the nostrils from the inside. I think that the scissored beak will become more pronounced as the lesion on the side of it does more damage.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Does anyone have any idea of how much this may cost?


----------



## Feefo

Charlotte,

Woodies are delicate birds and have little tolerance of stress. They can die of stress if injected from the adrenalin rush, even tame ones can't be handled without suffering considerable stress. Most vets either won't treat woodies or will euthanase them because "there are so many of them" , even the sanctuaries euthanase woodies with pox.

Take the pigeon to see Retief Ehlers, he has experience of wood pigeons and the compassion to treat them. He will be able to advise you about what can be done and what can't be done. Don't worry about the cost, I will pay. I tried to call the surgery just now to check whether they will accept a payment over the phone from me, but the surgery is closed on Wednesday afternoons. 

And as you know, if Roger isn't releasable he has a home here with other handicapped wood pigeons.

Keep your chin up! And yes, swap to the Nux Vom.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you Cynthia so so much, Im trying to organise when i can take him- and have the opening times that you posted previously. Will post when i know. I break up for christmas on friday(half day). 



Rogers Timeline
13th October- I found Roger being attacked by a cat. 
14th October- First posted about Roger!
15th October- Started treatment for cat wounds. 

19th October- First spotted Canker-treatment of metronidazole and spartrix. 
24th October- Canker almost all gone
29th October- no canker present

4th November- no longer any canker but first signs of pox on toes appearing. 
9th November- three lesions on toes 1cm diameter-treating with iodine. 
23rd November- three lesions 1.5cm-2cm diameter. 
29th November- First signs of lesion on his beak. 
11th December- First sign of pox in his upper beak. 
14th December- Treatment started of thuja pillules, ointment on external lesions and synulox. Also eating Goji berries. 
19th December- Today! still eating and drinking fine, images seen above.


----------



## Guest

Cynthia,
We don't have wood pigeons here in the eastern U.S. so yes, I am not all that familiar with what happens to them if they are taken to a vet. Also, the pictures show that the beak has already scissored and that means he isn't releasable so if you will take him, it's a blessing.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Right now im focusing on keeping Roger going and am going to cross that bridge when it comes to it. 

Thank you 
Charlotte and Roger


----------



## Whitefeather

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> *Right now im focusing on keeping Roger going *and am going to cross that bridge when it comes to it.
> 
> Thank you
> Charlotte and Roger


You're doing a *wonderful* job of caring for Roger, Charlotte.  

Dealing with the lesions has got to be extremely stressful on both of you.  
Sadly, beaks can, & do, become scissored when canker, lesions or other obstructions are invloved. However . . .

Your *positive attitude* & genuine attention to caring for him has given him the drive to hang on.  

Bless you both.  

Cindy


----------



## Feefo

harlotte, there is a saying in Spanish "Mi casa es su casa" (My house is your house). In this case your pigeon is my pigeon.

I will PM you with some information for when you contact Retief.

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

Poor Roger has been through so much already.
I hope he will be alright poor guy. How could he get pox while being indoors for so long. What is the incubation period for pox?
I had tons of birds with pox and never had one left with permanent damage.

Reti


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ill only be able to get him to london next thursday. Ill print a page all about him and what would happen to him if kept in captivity etc. to show Retief. Ill try and email the vets when I get home. 
Ive found two vets where he works, CJHall and Goddard veterinary group battersea, ill send an email to CJHall and try and call Goddard vet group. 

This morning Roger was the same, hes eating and drinking fine still. He had his first dose of num vox last night. 

Can I ask if anyone here has had a woodpigeon survive internal pox/pox in the beak?

Thank you
Charlotte and Roger

XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Actually, thinking about whether he would be releasable or not (we'll see how his beak turns out), Im sure he woud be able to be taught back what to eat how to survive etc. in the wild, and even if he was to spend the rest of his life in captivity, i dont think this would be a problem as he's become so tame.
He feeds from my hand and i can touch him without him moving away. Because his toes are so sore, ive been helping him feed and drink by bringing his food and water to him.


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

Retief used to work with C J Hall, but he left there when he moved to Battersea and Goddards.

My friend Les had a consultation with him in Battersea on Friday.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, will contact him at Goddard Veterinary group. Ive made a page containing his history and what will happen to him(his options) after recovery, which ill try and send to goddard veterinary group and will take with me when i go to london. 
Rogers ok today, same really, his toes look like the ends are going to fall off but theres swelling above where the original swelling was. Ive put some thuja ointment on the whole area. 

Thank you
Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Photos taken today.


----------



## Feefo

I can't tell whether he has any new lesions. Have you checked inside his mouth?

I telephoned Goddard's today, there was only a locum there and I couldn't understand him very well. He told me to telephone Monday.

I also found a post on another forum from an experienced rehabber who said that she euthanases pigeons with wet pox. However, Hallswood e-mailed me to say that if Roger has pox he soon won't have. I am hoping that Roger will prove Hallswood right , but I also want you to know the odds.

I found this advice on how to help parrots with pox, in this case the same will apply to pigeons:



> How is a poxvirus infection treated?
> 
> There are no medications that will kill the virus, so treatment involves supportive care to help the bird recover. Vitamin A may be administered to parrots to improve the health of the skin and lining of the mouth and esophagus. Antibiotics and antifungals may be used to prevent or treat any secondary infections. Tube feeding may be necessary in some birds who will not eat. Scabs around the eyes can be softened with compresses soaked in baby shampoo. Do NOT attempt to remove the scabs. Ophthalmic ointments may be used if the eyes are affected.



Here is a smaller sharper version of the picture that you posted.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ive had a good look in his mouth and there are no other lesions. There is one at the side of his beak and the wet pox lesion at the front of his beak. 

Would Hallswood (or anyone) know what to expect in the next 1-2 weeks. The lesion in his mouth appears to be going brown as though scabbing. Hes been eating and drinking this morning. 
Thank you Cynthia for calling for me, 


Happy Christmas Everyone!

Roger and Charlotte
XxX


----------



## mr squeaks

Hi Charlotte and Roger... 

Mr. Squeaks and I are sending our *BEST HEALING THOUGHTS* at this stressful time!

With LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES TOO

Shi & Squeaks


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

I have got the impression that very few people have experience of nursing 
woodies successfully through wet pox. The browning/scabbing of the lesion 
in the front of his beak sounds positive to me as does the fact that there 
are no new lesions.

I hope that you will become a vet and that you will specialise in avian 
medicine, I think that you would make a wonderful avian vet.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

Are you still applying the Tamodine to the pustules?

Cynthia


----------



## Vasp

I have to agree with cyro--from what I've read, you'd make a great avian vet. There just aren't enough avian veterinarians out there, because the more popular and easy alternative is to specialize in canines or felines. Exotics are harder, and the education involved with learning how to deal with avians is especially difficult. There is a lot more training involved, and all good avian vets specialize, often solely in avian medicine. It's a special field that isn't as often explored as canine and feline medicine is.

I myself would love to be an avian veterinarian, but I'm not sure if I can do so well with the math that's involved. LOL. But I'm going to take training to be a rehabber anyway, because that's something I _can_ do.

I hope beyond hope that this little pigeon has a fine recovery. Whether or not he can be released into the wild, I hope that all is smooth and comfortable for him--something the poor little thing really deserves after this hardship. The good thing is that you're there for him.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

cyro51 said:


> Are you still applying the Tamodine to the pustules?
> 
> Cynthia


I used up the last of the iodine on thursday, i can probably get some more for the vets if needed on monday. 

Thank you everyone for your support! While Roger keeps fighting, so will I. Just looking at him now, hes standing up looking around and grooming himself, he seems like hes not giving up any time soon. Im keeping an eye on his mouth as well, i dont know whether hes just being more tame or ive got better at opening his mouth but its been much easier these last couple of days. 

Yes, Id love to specialise in avian medicine. In june of this year a Peacock made our road its home(we have no idea where he came from-we live in a fairly busy suburban area!). I fed him and looked after him-he even started following me when i called his name, but just three months later he was hit on a stretch of straight road and some neighbours found him lying in the middle...we came back from tescos when we saw him. RSPCA had been called but never turned up!
Anyway, he was still alive and lying in the middle of a busy road so we blocked half the road off and i sat with him stroking his face and wings. It was so horrible, he died in my arms. 

I just hope Roger keeps going and that no more lesions form. I will be keeping you updated!

Sending all our love, 
Charlotte and Roger!


----------



## Feefo

People can be so cruel, how could anyone run down a peacock and not even stop. I am not at all suprised at the RSPCA not turning up...you should have told them the TV crews were there.

Your vet might not have Tamodine but they should have some providone-iodine. However, that might need to be diluted before applying it to a bird.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

It was cruel, and it wasnt even like he couldnt of seen him, he was HUGE!
I will call and get some iodine on monday, if its not tamodine I will dilute it down before using it. Is there anything more i can do to try and reduce the size of the lesion in his mouth, he is still managing to eat but it really looks annoying. 


Thank you 
Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, these images ive just taken this evening and are pretty horendous..i apologise for the state of his toes, i feel like giving him a bath but i dont want to spread the virus. 
Hes been eating this evening as normal-and drinking. Sorry if the photos come out huge again.


----------



## TAWhatley

I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like those growths on Roger. Charlotte, you and Roger have done an amazing job thus far. I know you will continue to give Roger the wonderful care that you have been. Hopefully Roger will continue to be the real little trouper that he has been. If the vet(s) being discussed as possibly seeing Roger are good avian vets, I would really suggest getting Roger to them for an exam as soon as possible.

Terry


----------



## Reti

Those lesion are pretty horrendous. They look quite moist too. It might take a while for them to dry. 
My vet recommends applying corn remover solution to any lesions except on the face and it does work, it dries them out in days. I don't know in the UK but here those solutions are sold over the counter in the pharmacy stores.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

Poor baby, I can see why Wildcare says that the pox goes straight through woodies.



> My vet recommends applying corn remover solution to any lesions except on the face and it does work, it dries them out in days. I don't know in the UK but here those solutions are sold over the counter in the pharmacy stores.


External use only and not the face?

I think that it is something that would be sold over the counter.



> If the vet(s) being discussed as possibly seeing Roger are good avian vets, I would really suggest getting Roger to them for an exam as soon as possible.


Retief is a good avian vet who developed a knowledge of wood pigeons (and ferals!) through working closely with a rehabber during his internship and he has continued to treat ferals rescued by one of our London Pigeon Talk members. The problem here is that it is Christmas and Retief might not be around.

Charlotte, when you take Roger to the vet can you also take your list of dates? The point at which he developed external lesions and then internal ones could be significant. I don't know whether the wet pox and dry pox are considered a single disease or whether they run their course independently.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Yes, im going to take the timeline of Rogers stay with me (including treatment etc) and photos ive taken of him and his lesions. Ive emailed this info to Goddard veterinary group already with the hope Retief will get it. The earliest I can get to London is thursday...providing my dad will take me. 

Is there anything i could use in the mean time to dry the lesions out/help him in anyway. 

Thank you
Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## Feefo

> Is there anything i could use in the mean time to dry the lesions out/help him in anyway.


You could try Reti's suggestion on the foot lesions. Are you still using the Thuja ointment? Di d it make the lesions better or worse?

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im still using the thuja ointment, but i hate to say it, it appears the lesions are growing further up his toes. 
I will try any suggestions. Im going shopping tomorrow and will go the the pharmacy to get some corn remover. Should i use the corn remover, thuja ointment and get some iodine?


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Has anyone used silver nitrate?
(My dad says this is a treatment used on warts caused by virus.)


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Or Salicyic acid-

"It works by causing the cells of the epidermis to slough off more readily, preventing pores from clogging up, and allowing room for new cell growth. Because of its effect on skin cells, salicylic acid is used in several shampoos used to treat dandruff. "


Also, we may have found where Roger first got his pox, i dont know if you remember, my dad brought home an injured pigeon which died overnight, just before roger started getting symptoms of pox in his toes.


----------



## Feefo

Silver Nitrate sounds a good choice. I don't know if it is suitable for oral use, you will have to ask a pharmacist, if it isn't for oral use then it won't be suitable for the beak lesion. Also check whether it is corrosive...it is used to bathe neonates' eyes, so I assume not, but it is best to check

I coudn't find out whether there was any difference between Silver Nitrate and Colloidal Silver, Trees is the expert so I hope she is around today. I have had good results using colloidal silver for eye infections in pigeons.

Cynthia.


----------



## Reti

The colloidal silver didn't work on the pijies I've had with pox. Didn't seem to make any difference, but you could still try it on the beak lesions. Apply it on with a tiny make-up brush. Even if he swallows some it wouldn't be toxic.
The corn remover has a high concentration of salicilic acid, it should work. Personally I haven't tried it, but some clients in the clinic have and they said it works.

Reti


----------



## Whitefeather

Again, bless you both, Charoltte. 
Roger is definitely _feeding_ off the love & care you are giving him.  

Will continue to 'think positive thoughts' from across the pond.  

Cindy


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hope these videos come up ok. Roger today...
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xePMWlcMOcM
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfRIHZEu--k


----------



## Reti

He is such a cutie. He acts fine, not like a sick pigeon. He doesn't even know there is something wrong with him.

Reti


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I know most people are very skeptical when they hear about this,as i was, and i can understand why(ive learnt to just be very open minded)...but last year i attended an animal communication workshop by Amelia Kinkade. The lady who organised it emailed me recently to ask if i was interested in going next year and i decided to ask her if she would ask Roger about his illness. 
She told me that Roger has come to me for a reason and that he could get through it, just to keep positive, pray for him and keep at it. I didnt tell her what was wrong with him, but said he was ill...she then said he was very thirsty-and i have to admit he has been, after i recieved the email he drank alot from a bowl i offered to him. 

I hope shes right, any how...i know how far-fetched it seems! If youve ever attended one of these workshops it is amazing. 

Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Reti said:


> He is such a cutie. He acts fine, not like a sick pigeon. He doesn't even know there is something wrong with him.
> 
> Reti


I know, hes so cute and thats the thing, i know the lesions look awful but hes still fighting.


----------



## Feefo

> I know most people are very skeptical when they hear about this,as i was, and i can understand why(ive learnt to just be very open minded)...but last year i attended an animal communication workshop by Amelia Kinkade. The lady who organised it emailed me recently to ask if i was interested in going next year and i decided to ask her if she would ask Roger about his illness.
> She told me that Roger has come to me for a reason and that he could get through it, just to keep positive, pray for him and keep at it. I didnt tell her what was wrong with him, but said he was ill...she then said he was very thirsty-and i have to admit he has been, after i recieved the email he drank alot from a bowl i offered to him.
> 
> I hope she's right, any how...i know how far-fetched it seems! If you've ever attended one of these workshops it is amazing.


Well, I believe in animal communications and have you read Trees' account of her pigeon Skye's TV experience?

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

> Also, we may have found where Roger first got his pox, i dont know if you remember, my dad brought home an injured pigeon which died overnight, just before roger started getting symptoms of pox in his toes.


I don't think it would have been that, it has to get into the blood stream and from what I read there was no contact between Roger and the stunned pigeon. It is more likely to have been transferred by a mosquito , and I think that when you found him he was probably already infected.

I have been trying to remember the way the disease progressed in Micklewood. He was found in London on September 8, he was just a baby and had been standing in a garden without moving for two days. By October 8 he had developed two lumps on his feet, they didn't look like Roger's lumps, the vet thought it was Necrobacillosis. He was treated with antibiotics, the lumps remained unchanged and he went into the Doviary with two other wood pigeons and some collared doves. Because woodies are so nervous we seldom handle them and try as much as possible to leave them undisturbed, so the lump in his mouth was quite large before he stood at the right angle to me for me to notice it. I took him indoors immediately but was unable to halt the course of the disease and he died on Christmas day.

The doves and wood pigeons that shared the doviary, water and food with him didn't develop the disease.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

cyro51 said:


> Well, I believe in animal communications and have you read Trees' account of her pigeon Skye's TV experience?
> 
> Cynthia


I think you have to open minded about things like this...i mean it cant hurt and it works! It would be good if it became common place for vets to learn about animal communication. 
Ive now read about skye and wish i they showed The pet psychic in the UK. Its fascinating.

Im going to my local shopping centre tomorrow, theres a boots and a lloyds pharmacy and i know boots sells "Naked hand lotion" which contains Manuka Honey-very good for healing, would this be ok? 
http://www.boots.com/shop/product_details.jsp?productid=1074912&classificationid=1039092


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just found this page, I know its not available yet, but wouldnt it be brilliant, i was thinking about using silver nitrate but I dont want to cause him any pain. 

http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=1401


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

But just found this on an avian website

"Silver nitrate is used as a cauterizing agent and destroys skin. Kwik stop can cause tissue damage. Both silver nitrate and Kwik Stop can cause systemic poisoning."

http://groups.msn.com/BirdBrainz/yourwebpage.msnw


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just foung this on a budgerigar website(link at bottom)

"There are breeders who claim successful treatment using flowers of sulphur, applied to skin lesions or given orally. Removal of skin lesions with sodium bicarbonate washes, careful removal of diphtheritic membranes in the mouth to prevent choking, and the raising of the environmental temperature to about 15-20°F (8-11°C) below blood heat will probably be equally effective. "

Has anyone used this before? Any where could i get "flowers of sulpher"???

http://www3.sympatico.ca/davehansen/viral.html


----------



## Skyeking

per Cynthia's request:

I really don't know much about the diference between silver nitrate and colloidal silver, except that silver nitrate is a compound , colloidal silver is tiny parts of positive charged silver suspended in liquid. 

http://www.silvermedicine.org/faq.html

Here is the brand I use:

http://www.sovereignsilver.info/silver_overview.php


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

The only problem is finding it. I cant find any colloidal silver products at boots or lloyds. I could try and get to a Holland and Barrett tomorrow. Apparently they do sell Colloidal silver liquid. 
Do you think it would be worth getting some vit A?


----------



## Feefo

> Im going to my local shopping centre tomorrow, theres a boots and a lloyds pharmacy and i know boots sells "Naked hand lotion" which contains Manuka Honey-very good for healing, would this be ok?


I think that something that is 100% Manuka honey would be best. I have some Manukacare 18+ which is 100% Manuka Honey, but it was a gift and I don't know where it came from.

I would probably try colloidal silver on the internal lesion.

I did a search for Flowers of Sulphur, that seems to be Sulphur Powder which is a garden chemical used to prevent root rot and fungal diseases.

I also found these treatments for avian pox:



> Homeopathic Treatments
> • Alternate Arsenicum 3X and Rhus tox 3X (3 pellets every 2 hrs.).
> • If many are affected put 20 drops (pellets) of Arsenicum alb. 3X in 1 pint water and
> make a feed mash, follow with Rhus tox mash. (3)
> • Dissolve 1-3 dozen pellets of Arsenicum in the drinking water for three days. If no
> improvement change to Rhus tox, renewing each day.
> • Belladonna for hot fever and Silicea if pustules break. (2)
> • If lesions on head and comb are wart-like give--Antim tart.
> • If lesions in mouth are diptheric type give--Kali mure, Nat sulph.
> • If lesions with fever give--Antim tart, Aconite.
> • If lesions without fever give--Bryonia, Calc phos.
> • Head remedy--Variolinum30 or 200.
> • Combination remedy of Pulsatilla200+Thuja200+Nat sulph200, 5ml each in 8 liters
> of water for 100 birds. (18)


Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ill take that list with me tomorrow and try and get some of it. 

So its ok to use the colloidal silver internally-it wont hurt him?


----------



## Feefo

Yes, Vitamin A would probably be good.

Do you have a Neal's Yard branch?

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

And yes, colloidal silver is OK for internal use.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im afraid we dont have any Neals yard branches near us. 
Will get as much for him as poss tomorrow. 

Thank you

Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

OK, from looking online i know i should definately be able to get the following;

Colloidal Silver liquid
Nat Sulphate
and should be able to get some form of vit A tablets.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ok, so action plan.
Administered evenings;- The Nat sulphate and colloidal silver are used against wet pox and will be administered orally-brushing the C.silver on the lesion in his beak. 
Vit A will hopefully be dissolved in his water, although if in tablet form may have to be given orally. 
Tea tree oil will be used to dry the lesions externally-including the external beak lesion. 
I will continue daily doses of num vox and synulox (1/2 50mg twice a day) in the evenings and thuja ointment in the morning.


----------



## Reti

Sounds good.

Reti


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

*Email from Retief*

Literally just got this email from Retief...(Paul is my dad)

"Hi Paul,



Thanks for your email. I only got it today, so sorry for the delay.



There is no effective treatment available for the disease, but sometimes with supportive care a lot of birds survive. Just isolate the bird from others.



Continue to use antibiotics, either Synulox, or Baytril. 

You can use a painkiller – Metacam oral solution, 0.05ml once per day (1 small drop)

Anti-viral medication may help, eg Acyclovir (Zovirax) at 29mg per bird per os 3 x per day for 7 days.

Echinacea may be useful as well to stimulate the immune system (1ml / L drinking water, Use alcohol-free formulation)

Some bird may require supplement feeding if lots of lesions around beak – Can tube feed hand rearing formulation.

The lesions can be cleaned using a diluted Hibiscrub solution. 



Please let me know if I can be of further help.



Regards and Merry Christmas!



Retief Ehlers MRCVS

Branch Vet Battersea"


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I can get some Zovirax(cold sore cream) in boots and liquid Echinacea in Holland and Barrett.


----------



## Reti

Forgot about Zovirax, even though I found in patients that the cream is not particularly helpful, the tablets are more so.

Reti


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I can only get the cream, do i put this on the lesions?


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

i managed to get colloidal silver, zovirax, Echinacea and tea tree oil. 
Will start tonight-now on;

Morning 
Alternate days-Thuja ointment/Zovirax on toes and dry beak lesion. 
1/2 synulox

Evening
Colloidal silver on wet beak lesion and one drop swallowed. 
Tea tree oil on toes and dry beak lesion. 
1/2 synulox

and 1ml/L Echinacea in water.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

On the Echinacea label it says 1mL contains equivalent of 500mg of dried echinacea. Should i be giving one drop in his water? of 1 drop in a litre and giving him some of that?


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

That is very helpful information! Retief is so kind, I found a post praising him on a foru, for gliders. And it will save you a journey too.

Do you have any 1ml syringes? 1ml is roughly 20 drops. 1 litre is 1000 ml.

I didnt know that you could get Zovirax over the counter! 

I know I have some Metacam somewhere, I will track it down and send it , if I send it by special delivery on Thursday it should be with you by Friday. Will also send more synulox. John will have to help me find the bottle of Metacam.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Luckily the dropper is calibrated so i can measure it straight out, i will put 1ml in 1 L and give him that. 

Thank you so much Cynthia, Rogers having his dinner. I will start his meds now.

I know its hard to say, but do you think ill start to see the lesion in his mouth reducing because it looks horrible and making it difficult for hijm to eat, he is still managing but it looks really annoying. 

Thank you
Roger and Charlotte
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Oh no! Ive just noticed a whitish dot on one of his nostrils about 1mm-1.5mm in diameter. What can i do do make sure it doesnt grow any bigger?!!!

For goodness sake! I cant believe this is happening.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

ok, ive wiped it with tea tree oil then put a dot of zovirax cream on it. Its on his left nostril, this photo isnt today..but just to illustrate where it is.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I put the num vox and then synulox tablet in front of him, and he just ate them, there were no seeds, just that and he ate them!Ive brushed colloidal silver on his beak lesion which he sat and let me do and then swallowed some.


----------



## Reti

WildlifeVetToBe said:


> I put the num vox and then synulox tablet in front of him, and he just ate them, there were no seeds, just that and he ate them!Ive brushed colloidal silver on his beak lesion which he sat and let me do and then swallowed some.



Never heard of something like this LOL 
He ate his pills, that is too funny.
Usually here the meds won't go down with out a battle. 
You have the tamest bird I've ever heard of.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

> I know its hard to say, but do you think ill start to see the lesion in his mouth reducing


I hope so, but I have only had three woodies with pox. You already know about Micklewood. Kittywood developed a single pustule on her cere, it was grey and just disappeared during her time of isolation. Norwood had a single lump on her toe, she lost the toe and had no further growths.

I think that the best you can do now is what you are already doing, attacking each pustule as it develops and boosting his immune system.

What bothers me is that an external pox pustule should have started to develop so long into a disease that is supposed to be sel limiting within six weeks. But the external pustules are not the problem, it is the internal, wet pox that can be so lethal.

He must trust you so much to eat anything that you offer him!

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

he is sweet, but im so scared for him now. Its so horrible seeing this happen to him. Its really making me cry because i feel like i cant do anything. Now to think another horrible lesion is going to grow on his beak is horrible, especially as i know how horrible it was to see him mouth breathing last time. 

I feel like burning it off, if i every become an avian vet, i really want to find something which really helps these poor birds.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

You dont think this could be something else? because no one seems to have seen pox lesions like this.


----------



## Feefo

> if i every become an avian vet, i really want to find something which really helps these poor birds


That would be the best gift you could give pigeonkind.

I also feel that pox is a horrible disease. It is so cruel that it should be so virulent when it attacks the gentlest of all birds.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

> You dont think this could be something else? because no one seems to have seen pox lesions like this.


The thing is that no one has seen lesions, pox or otherwise, that are as bad as Roger's external lesions! The lesion in the mouth is very much like the one Micklewood had.

Perhaps you could e-mail the photos to Retief for his opinion?

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I just found some images of doves with lesions which look just like Rogers, im going to email the site to find out what happened to them. http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/avianpox.htm


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I emailed Retief the photos previously, those photos just prove that he has it, poor Roger, ill email them.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im now hoping that if that lesion does grow, it wont block his nostril...ive probably just jinxed that now.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Have a good Christmas everyone!
Hopefully next year will be a good one!

Thank you for everyones support!

Sending all our love!

XxXxXxX


----------



## Reti

Have a wonderful Christmas.
Hope you will become a vet. The critters need nice, compasionate vets like you.

Reti


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you, lets hope so. 
Rogers final update before christmas


Final photos...just to show how he is now. One note i have to make is that he keeps bringing his head/throat up, as though hes trying to swallow something. Doesnt do it very often and is having no problems swallowing food atall or drinking. To Rogers disgust i have looked into his mouth and as far as i can see down his throat and i cant see anything. The lesions on his toes are drying quite nicely and hes letting me treat the lesions on/in his beak aswell. Fingers crossed in the comind days and weeks. 

The white dot on his left nostril on his beak is where ive put the zovirax cream, the actual size of the nasty thing is about 1-1.5mm diameter.


----------



## Reti

with all the tlc he is getting, I am sure he will recover very nicely.
He has a very sweet expresion. 

Reti


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

This morning Roger gave himself his medication and ive given him some colloidal silver on his toes and mouth. He is alsmost retching alot though, as though he trying to swallow, hes still able to eat though and has has his christmas breakfast and water with echinacea. 

Happy Christmas
XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Roger has continued to "retch" throughout the day, and i was beginning to worry he wasnt eating very much, but managed to get him to eat some more by pouring a fair amount in front of him. Its becoming harder for his to pick some things out, bless him, he did try to medicate himself tonight and took his num vox on his own. The lesions on his toes are drying up but have spread up the entire length of the underside of three of his toes, he spends most of the time on one leg as his foot with 2 lesions is so painful. I make little cusions for his foot out of tissue. One good thing is that his spirits are still high, hes still going bless him. 



I hope everyones had a great christmas, 

sending all our love
Charlotte and Roger.


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

Do you have any Critical Care formula or Poly Aid? They can be added to his drinking water for additional nutrition.

If you don't have any I will post some on Thursday to reach you by Friday.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Im afraid i dont. I put some sugar in his water to give him some energy, hes still able to eat, its just with the lesion in his beak he cant judge whether hes picking anything up or not, so hes able to pick seeds up if theres a huge pile of seed, which im doing. He wasnt able to take his tablets this morning although he did try bless him. Ive emailed my friend to ask he to try and talk to him because this morning he really started shaking when i approached him, im just hoping he understands why i have to put tablets down his throat. 
I havnt seen him retch today, not yet anyway. 
He has flown twice this morning. 
Ive been putting Zovirax on the white dot on his beak and so far it doesnt appear to have grown. 

Ive just sat with him and he is still reaching up with his neck as though hes trying to swallow something. Hes had a drink and still trying to eat. After saying hes scared of me he just let me put some more zovorax on his beak without moving atall. He seems bright, just really uncomfortable. 

Hes had one drop of colloidal silver, 1/2 synulox and one spartix this morning and the echinacea in his water. I have a fan heater near him to keep him warm. 

Thank you so much Cynthia for being so amazing, I spent about half an hour last night praying for Roger and his healing. 

Sending all my and Rogers thanks and love

Charlotte and Roger

XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Just been sitting with him and he is still very interested in his food and is eating seed...although i would argue due to his sorting technique, he likes to push half his food on the floor! Im mostly worried about this reaching that hes doing, but hes still eating and drinking at the moment. 


XxX


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

Actually I think you are the one that is amazing, Roger certainly found the right rescuer. It is excellent news that the new spot hasn't grown !

Can you e-mail Retief and ask if the lump inside his beak could be trimmed or removed under mild sedation without causing a bleed or spreading the pox?

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Will do, Ive emailed him asking about the white dot on his beak already, it would be great if the lump in his beak could be reduced in size. 

XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Update;

Retief said that the lesions would probably bleed quite alot if removed and as Cynthia has said to me, Pigeons dont do well under anaesthetic, so it would be as a last resort. 

Although he didnt eat anything yesterday(i was at a wedding and came home to find him on the floor), he has already eaten quite alot this morning. I also have some polyaid im offering him and trying to get down him. Hes bright and alert this morning and the lesion in his beak is quite crusty. The lesions on his toes are now black and redish/brown at the base of his toes. 
The white dot on his nostril has unforunately continued to grow, although still is a white dot about 2mm across and bulging a bit. I covered it with Vovirax last night. 

Hes on 1/2 synulox twice a day, one drop of metacam, one drop of colloidal silver and some brushed onto his beak lesion and is having echinacea and a pinch of sugar in his water and tea tree oil on his lesions in the morning, and thuja ointment in the morning. I will start applying the manuka honey tonight aswell. Finally, hes having 1 num vox every evening. 

I think thats everything. There a whole load of people praying for his healing and my freind has talked to him and said to just keep at it!

Thank you
Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## amyable

Hi Charlotte,

There are more people praying for Roger than you probably realise, he really has a purpose in his life.  

Bless you both

Janet


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

I hope that the nostril lump will be mild, by this time the external pox should have run its course, surely.

My Kittywood developed a grey lump near her nostril, or on it . When I tried to remove it it started to bleed, so I assume it was pox. I quarantined her and dabbed Tamodine on the lump, it dried up and healed completely. I hope that this is what will happen to Roger's latest.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Hopefully it can only get better from here, i can see the white lump has grown, to about 3mm across and like a tiny bubble. Hes still going though. 

Would tea tree oil work on it?


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

I know that a flamingo is a whole lot bigger than a little wood pigeon, but i found this which is quite interesting. 
This is what they attempted after trying to remove the reoccuring avian pox lesion three times, twice using laser surgery and once using the conventional scalpel. 

"The Zoo veterinarians then decided to try a novel treatment: They injected a broad-spectrum antiviral drug, called ribavirin, directly into the mass. Ribavirin had not previously been used to treat avian pox—in fact, no drug was known to be effective against it—but three days after the first injection, the bill showed significant healing! 
The chick's bill started to heal within a few days of being treated with ribavirin. 
Vets continued the ribavirin treatment and the bill’s condition improved dramatically. Soon, the lesion was completely gone and the chick was feeding normally. 
The chick, now an adult, is doing well. Come visit the flamingo flock at the Bird House!"

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Conservationandscience/SpotlightOnVetMedicine/flamingobill.cfm


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Also known as 

Copegus®; Rebetol®; Ribasphere®; Vilona®,Virazole®,


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

It works by preventing the virus reproducing.


----------



## Reti

That is very interesting. I don't think too much research has been done on antiviral drugs, but I guess they are getting there. They are still relatively new , I guess that's why. Zovirax is specific for pox viruses and it should work, only the topical form doesn't work that well, probably due to the the fact that it is not all absorbed. A po or inj form works well but where do you get it from other than from your dr.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

Vets can issue a private prescription which the pharmacist can fill. That is how I get Nystatin which is also a prescription only drug here.

We can also ask people that have been treated for chicken pox what they were prescribed and whether they have any left...the problem is that patients are supposed to complete the course.

One of my friends had chicken pox last year, he is "one of us" (pigeon lover, feeder, rescuer) and I know that he will help if he can.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

And while I remember, in his book "Practical Wildlife Care", Les Stocker says about pox patients:

"During its stay in captivity a bird may knock the lesions causing a small amout of haemorrhage. This can be stopped with a caustic pencil or a wound powder." I am certain that I have a wound powder that I have hardly used so I will put it in the post.

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Roger was bright today, he has already had some breakfast and is now having a snooze looking out the window. 
The coming years are going to be really interesting, id love to help do more research as a vet on antiviral drugs. That would be fantastic. 

XxX


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Ive emailed Retief and the zoo which had this flamingo chick for advice!

Thank you everyone for your help!
Hope youve had a great Christmas and have a Happy New Year!









Charlotte and Roger
XxX


----------



## Feefo

Charlotte, I love that picture so much! I hope that a company buys it to produce posters.

I had a reply from my friend, he said they gave him just enough Zovirax to complete the course, then added: _still have some Telfast tablets but think they they were for the itching (if that was the case they didn't work - it was more pain than itch!) They contain Fexofenadine and microcrystalline, if you think they may help I will either post to you or take into work (we are closed Tuesday)._

Did you read anything about these while doing your research?

Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

No, i didnt find that, i will look it up. Little Roger ate this evening, but my dad noticed the new lesion...unfortunately i find far too many people are pessimistic, and all too often animals are put to sleep. I remember watching an operation on a horse with grass fever and the vet was working hard to keep the horse going, and kept saying we havnt given up on you yet, dont give up, wheras a work experience girl kept saying it had had it. I agreed with the vet. Unfortunately I had kept my dad waiting 1 1/2 hrs watching the op so had to go before i found out what happened, but it made me think. I love surgery and i think all too often people give up.


----------



## Feefo

Hi Charlotte,

It appears that he was given antihistamines, I don't think that they will be something Roger needs.


Cynthia


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

*Help_breathing Difficulty*

Roger has taken a turn for the worse. Over night he has started breathing "funny". Its like hes sneezing everytime he breaths out and he keeps jerking his head up at every breath. He also keeps opening his mouth everytime he breaths out. This is not like mouth breathing. 

I have no idea what to do, he hasnt eaten anything today.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Roger died at 12:00 while i was stroking him and talking to him, he just wasnt getting enough oxygen around his body. 
He fought till the end. 

Thank you so so much to everyone who helped me with him, especially cynthia who gave so generously. 

CharlotteXxXXxXxXxX

I love you little Roger


----------



## Reti

This is such terrible news to read. I am so sorry. I was positive Roger would make it, I can't imagine what happened. 
You've been an angel to him, he couldn't have been in better hands. 

RIP Roger.

Reti


----------



## pigeonpoo

I'm so sorry to hear this Charlotte. Poor Rodger and poor you.

You did your very best for him - maybe he had some internal pox or other issues you weren't aware of.

Thoughts and prayers for you both.

Hugs

Sue


----------



## amyable

Charlotte,

I am so sorry. You and Roger have been such an inspiration. I have even been thinking about you both this morning while I was out walking my dogs.
He came into your life for a big purpose, and he would want you to carry on helping other birds with all the knowledge you have gained from him being in your life.

May he now be free from all his problems to watch over you .

Bless you both

Janet


----------



## Feefo

I am so sorry, Charlotte, you both fought so hard.

From what you have told me of his behaviour Roger trusted you and passed in the company of the one person he loved and trusted. I wish all wild birds had that safe haven and reassurance.

I will never forget Roger, he is one of those very special pigeons that stay in my heart.

Thank you for taking such good care of him...and your dad too. Take care of yourself now and keep working towards your goal. One day pigeon pox will be controlled or eradicated because there are people like you that want to make a difference for wildlife.

Fly high, sweet little Roger.

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking

I'm so sorry to hear about Rodger. I know you did your best for him, and that he died in peace and contentment. Thank you for being there for him and all wildlife.

My thoughts are with you today.


----------



## Dezirrae

I am also so saddened by the news  I've been following this thread for awhile and have been saying lots of prayers for little Roger. You've given so unselfishly of yourself and unconditional love. I know Roger's life was better for it and I'm sure he will continue to be close by you as you travel the rest of your path. {{{hugs}}} to you and your Dad. RIP little Roger.


----------



## chriss80

Sad news to hear, I think you have done a great job taking care of him


----------



## John_D

My condolences, Charlotte.

We lost Micklewood woodpigeon to the same illness, able only to give him supportive care.

I hope this experience will strengthen your desire to be a vet - to give that care and dedication you have shown to other birds and animals in the future.

John


----------



## TAWhatley

Charlotte, I am so very, very sorry for the loss of Roger. Bless you and your Dad for all the wonderful care and love that was given.

Terry


----------



## mr squeaks

Hi Charlotte...

I, too, am saddened by the death of Roger. He was certainly a "special" one who, I am sure, will be an "inspiration" to you over the years!

RIP Roger...you certainly impacted a lot of people...

LOVE and WARM COMFORTING THOUGHTS, Charlotte...

Shi & Squeaks


----------



## Maggie-NC

Charlotte, please know that you and Roger have been a source of inspiration to me. You have been so dedicated and determined to save him and I wish the outcome had been different. I truly do not think he would have survived as long as he did without the love and care you have given him.

We learn to know and love other member's pigeons and when they die, it hurts us all.

Bless you, your dad and Roger.


----------



## WildlifeVetToBe

Thank you everyone, for everything, youve all provided so so much support while ive had roger. Im going to use all ive learnt to help all animals i come into contact with in the future. Im just praying i get into Vet school this year(am applying in september). We'll never forget Roger, and he'll always be with me. 

XxX


----------



## Reti

Best of luck in getting into vet school. You'll be a wonderful vet.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

Good luck Charlotte, we need more vets like you!

Cynthia


----------



## PigeonQueen

Charlotte you have been so courageous. By remaining positive you were able to help and gave Roger the best chance. No one could have done more.

I believe he was comforted by your loving care during the last days of his life . I think he died a peaceful death knowing he was in safe hands.

I am sure you will become a good veterinary surgeon and suspect you will be helping many other piggies in the future!

I wish you the very best. Jayne.


----------



## Pidgey

I was so saddened to hear about Roger. I'd begun to think that his immune system just wasn't getting ahead of the illness and that's why I'd asked you to post that timeline. When I saw how long he'd presented the lesions, I did start getting a bad feeling. I, myself, have never had to deal with pox, dry or wet. About all I know is that dry can look bad and not be, and wet is always bad news, although not necessarily fatal. All I knew to do was refer you to Cynthia and hope for the best because it's never over until it's over. Truly living life is all about not quitting when things get difficult and you certainly didn't. I respect that a lot and I know in my heart that Roger appreciated all that you did on his behalf. Someday, hopefully, we will have a way to fight this.

Pidgey


----------



## Margarret

Charlotte,

I'm so sorry you lost Roger. You gave him the best of care. Sometimes it is just beyond what anyone can do. Please accept my condolences.

Margaret


----------

