# Meds for non-Americans



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi, I live in Australia and many of the meds that are recommended on these forums for various ailments are not available here, and I've noticed that other international members sometimes have the same problem as I do. So..... lately I've been trying to be more creative about solving this problem. 

I am wondering if anyone would like to help me build an information base for international members, who need to source alternative medications for helping pigeons ?

So far, I have a little bit of information to contribute that may help others.

Antibiotics:

Baytril is the drug recommended most commonly here, however this is not obtainable either online or from vets in Australia because feral pigeons are euthanized upon presentation to any vet or wild-life carer. 

A very similar drug, however, is called `Ciprofloxacin', which is basically a human version of Baytril, from the same same family of drugs . Another good antibiotic is Amoxilicllin, which is available as a fish med called `fish mox'. I have been able to source these on ebay in the fish medication section. I've yet to see if I will have issues with customs, but I think its worth a shot. Without decent antibiotics, trying to help sick pigeons is almost always a losing battle.

Canker drugs: This is another black hole for Australians wishing to help pigeons . There's just nothing available. However, I discovered that there is a human drug called `fluconazole' which is available over the counter in chemist stores . This can be used to treat Canker in pigeons. In Australia it is packaged as `canesten' tablets, for thrush in women. EDIT: ****Karyn has informed me that this is an antifungal drug, and not for canker. ****

Coccidia: I often see sulmet and albon recommended here, however these are not available in my country. Baycox is the best available drug for this in our country . It is available for chickens but this is a very expensive drug. Its sold by the litre at around $1000 or more, so its not very practical for most people. The only real option is a product called `coccivet' which is based on Amprolium. 

If anyone has any other suggestions to contribute, a lot of us from overseas would be very grateful for you help.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Canker drugs: This is another black hole for Australians wishing to help pigeons . There's just nothing available. However, I discovered that there is a human drug called `fluconazole' which is available over the counter in chemist stores . This can be used to treat Canker in pigeons. In Australia it is packaged as `canesten' tablets, for thrush in women.
> 
> Coccidia: I often see sulmet and albon recommended here, however these are not available in my country. Baycox is the best available drug for this in our country . It is available for chickens but this is a very expensive drug. Its sold by the litre at around $1000 or more, so its not very practical for most people. The only real option is a product called `coccivet' which is based on Amprolium.
> 
> If anyone has any other suggestions to contribute, a lot of us from overseas would be very grateful for you help.


Bella, it is always good to try and be creative and come up solutions that sometimes are not obvious. A couple of quick comments, the fluconazole (Diflucan) you mention is for treating fungal/yeast infections and canker is caused by a protozoa, Trichomonas Gallinae, a different organism so an anti-fungal med will not work (at least that I am aware of) on canker, perhaps it is the "azole" ending that may be leading you to believe fluconazole is part of the nitroimidazole family of drugs and it is not. It is an imidazole derivative, as are the nitroimidazoles, but were imidazoles are anti-fungal, nitroimidazoles are anti-parasitic (and some anti-bacterial as well).

The Triple-Sulfa that you said you found there is based on sulfonamides, and Sulmet and Albon are both sulfa based meds. The TS will treat for cocccidia, as well as good deal of bacterial infections.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Try looking for the Metronidazole in Tropical Fish Supply Stores...may be called "Fish Zole" or who knows what they may call it, but, for treating Anaerobes and or Protozoan troubles in Aquariums.


Otherwise, maybe, try and get to know a Large Animal Vet, Zoo or Sanctuary personel, and, buy him or her a few Beers or bring them a 6-pack...work something out for occasions when you might need a 'scrip, or, some small amounts of stuff they'd have on hand anyway.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Kayrn,

I found the info about fluconazole on this forum here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/canker-or-some-other-sickness-40310.html

``fluconazole if its 100 mg
1 tablet is crushed in 5 cc of water
give 0.16 orally twice a day for 28 days.
thats if u get 2 pills of 100 mg its 28 days, if u get one crush it put it in 5 cc, and give 0.16 twice a day for 14 days''

I've also seen this info confirmed as a treatment for canker on multiple forums related to poultry. 

Its not licensed for birds but it works , according to reports. And I think its better than watching a bird die slowly from canker, which is what people in other countries must do.

As for sulfa drugs, they have their place but not for some of the common illnesses I see such as Paratyphoid. The pigeons need Cipro or baytril to stop them from being carriers for life. Also, Sulfa drugs are highly overused in Australia and have become largely ineffective for cocci and enteritis.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, if you have a friend or relative or friend of a relative, or a relative of a friend, who lives in the States...maybe just have them order a bunch of stiff from 'Jedds' or 'Foys', and, then, they can just ship it to you.


Or, ask any of the US Pigeon Supply outfits if they will ship to Oz, and, see what they say.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Phil,

I checked into the US based online pigeon supply stores recommended here, and none of them ship to Australia. None of the US Ebay stores will either. I found two ebay stores, one in India and one in Spain who will ship here. But I've yet to find out if the meds will pass customs. Fingers are crossed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yeahhh, I kinda thought that might be a glitch, but I was not sure.


What about making the acquaintance of people in the Animal Health related occupations in your area?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Australian Pigeon Company*

*Hi Bella,Have you heard of the Australian Pigeon Company, run by Dr. Colin Walker. Dr. Walker is a veterinarian his web site is www.auspigeonco.com.au The company is located at 11 Henry road, Wantirna South, Victoria 3152 ,AUSTRALIA , you could check his web site, or write him, I am sure that he would help you.* GEORGE


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Yeahhh, I kinda thought that might be a glitch, but I was not sure.
> 
> 
> What about making the acquaintance of people in the Animal Health related occupations in your area?


Sigh, Yeah, I've heavily explored that avenue too, but no luck.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

george simon said:


> *Hi Bella,Have you heard of the Australian Pigeon Company, run by Dr. Colin Walker. Dr. Walker is a veterinarian his web site is www.auspigeonco.com.au The company is located at 11 Henry road, Wantirna South, Victoria 3152 ,AUSTRALIA , you could check his web site, or write him, I am sure that he would help you.* GEORGE


Hey George,

Dr Colin Walker hates feral pigeons. I've spoken to him personally on the phone twice, and he said he feels that all feral pigeons should be killed, and that he would definitely NOT help me with meds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...try...


http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Fish-Zole-Me...440?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e59347ed0


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Kayrn,
> 
> I found the info about fluconazole on this forum here:
> 
> ...




Bella, before I posted, I had a look, although I admit quick, through the literature to confirm the basic knowledge I had in my mind concerning the classes of meds I spoke to and the uses of fluconazole and I could see no references of it being used to treat Trichomonas. That being said, there are occasions when there are off label uses of meds, but there are also times, especially on forums, where incorrect information gets posted, passed along and perpetuated. I am open that either could be the case here, why don't you spend a little time and see if there are any case studies in the medical literature, or even anecdotal references (not forum posts), where fluconazole has been used to treat Trichomonas, as either way, it is always good to have correct information.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

People do sometimes get Thrush, and, Canker, mixed up, or they exchange the terms unwittingly...and, this may underlie some of the casual references seen in various forums.


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Bella,
I have rescued a feral pigeon (Perth CBD) and we've had him for a week already and he is doing really well. I have spoken with Pbison & Dobato alot this past week and they have been a great help. I was browsing the forum and found your discussion regarding meds in Australia. I noticed the comment regarding wild life sanctuaries - 

"...however this is not obtainable either online or from vets in Australia because feral pigeons are euthanized upon presentation to any vet or wild-life carer."

This was a cause for concern for me because my husband & I have discussed taking our bird to a wild life sanctuary here in Perth. Our reasons are because we don't have room for a large aviary that would allow our boy to fly and we don't think it fair to keep him enclosed in a small cage either. 

Are you in Perth by any chance? What have you heard??? What have you done with your 'Feral'? I think we need to start a thread called "Ferals are pigeons too!"


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

There is active racing clubs, and show type clubs in your country. Where people hace kept and raised pigeons for many years. I would find a club and or memember and find out where they get there meds and what they use. surely there is a decent priced source.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Hey George,
> 
> Dr Colin Walker hates feral pigeons. I've spoken to him personally on the phone twice, and he said he feels that all feral pigeons should be killed, and that he would definitely NOT help me with meds.


Bella...there have been members here, that have taken feral pigeons to Dr Walker and have appreciated his kindness and knowledge so reading your account is very confusing.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Bella_F said:


> Hey George,
> 
> Dr Colin Walker hates feral pigeons. I've spoken to him personally on the phone twice, and he said he feels that all feral pigeons should be killed, and that he would definitely NOT help me with meds.


*Hi Bella, I am very sorry to hear that Dr.Walker feels that way.Well I guess that I will not be using any of his meds and supplements in the future.* GEORGE


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hey George,
> 
> Dr Colin Walker hates feral pigeons. I've spoken to him personally on the phone twice, and he said he feels that all feral pigeons should be killed, and that he would definitely NOT help me with meds.


Well then lie, and tell them you own racers, for goodness sakes.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Charis said:


> Bella...there have been members here, that have taken feral pigeons to Dr Walker and have appreciated his kindness and knowledge so reading your account is very confusing.


Good point. We do definitely have one member who took a feral to Dr Walker (don't recall any others) and that was Duane (bakadko) whose thread about it is here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=41903

He told them the bird was a pet when he called for an appointment, I believe.

I've had an opinion (using email and a couple of pics) from him but of course I wasn't going to be getting meds from over there. I don't believe I said anything about the origins of the pigeon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella, I don't see where Dr. Walker hates ferals at all. If he has helped other members, I'm sure he would be of some help to you.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I think it's as you said earlier, Jay - if someone seeks advice for an alleged 'pet pigeon' or racing pigeon then they are more likely to be successful.

I don't much like having to be 'economical with the truth' but I do usually claim any pigeon to be 'a pet' to be on the safe side. All the better if it has a plastic clip-on band too


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

The way I look at it, pigeons are domestic birds anyway and once you take in a feral it _becomes_ a pet so you're not lying.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

John_D said:


> I think it's as you said earlier, Jay - if someone seeks advice for an alleged 'pet pigeon' or racing pigeon then they are more likely to be successful.
> 
> *I don't much like having to be 'economical with the truth' but I do usually claim any pigeon to be 'a pet' to be on the safe side.* All the better if it has a plastic clip-on band too


That what I always did too. I would just say it was my pet. But the clip on band is a great idea. I never thought about that. Thanks.

Although now I have a great vet that doesn't care if they are feral or not. She's great. Even cut the cost in half last time we tried to save a little feral we brought in. But I will remember the band idea, and will pass it on.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Podgy's Mum said:


> Hi Bella,
> I have rescued a feral pigeon (Perth CBD) and we've had him for a week already and he is doing really well. I have spoken with Pbison & Dobato alot this past week and they have been a great help. I was browsing the forum and found your discussion regarding meds in Australia. I noticed the comment regarding wild life sanctuaries -
> 
> "...however this is not obtainable either online or from vets in Australia because feral pigeons are euthanized upon presentation to any vet or wild-life carer."
> ...


Hi there!

Firstly, great work with rescuing your pigeon; its great to hear he's doing so well! I'm so glad you wrote before taking him to the wildlife sanctuary. Its almost 100% likely that the Vet would have killed him. 

I was speaking to staff at Australia zoo (Steve Irwin's wild life sanctuary here in QLD) just last week about their vet euthanising some feral pigeons I'd found. I had handed these 3 pigeons over to a bird caring agency who promised me they would be cared for. But what they did was send them to Australia zoo. After many phone calls, I finally discovered that they were killed as soon as they arrived there.

The vet nurse I was speaking to was very sympathetic to pigeons , and had rescued many of them who had been taken to the wildlife sanctuary. She told me that wild life sanctuaries always kill feral birds and animals irregardless of health, including dingoes! She warned me not to ever take a feral to a wildlife sanctuary again. 

What you probably need is to find someone with pet pigeons, or who wants pet pigeons, who will take your boy in....something like that. But it might be difficult if he hasn't been properly checked out for disease. Feral pigeon can be latent carriers of several nasty diseases that people wouldn't want in their flock.

What about letting him go back to where you found him? Is he adult? If so he might have a mate waiting for him?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Birdmom4ever said:


> The way I look at it, pigeons are domestic birds anyway and once you take in a feral it _becomes_ a pet so you're not lying.


Ahh. Good thinking!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, I don't see where Dr. Walker hates ferals at all. If he has helped other members, I'm sure he would be of some help to you.


Hi Jay,

I've spoken to him personally on the phone, twice. He said both times that he personally feels that all ferals should all be destroyed. I was horrified, by these conversations. I had called him in hope of buying some Spartrix from him, and all I got was this spiel about how ferals are pests and should all be killed


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just had the nicest conversation with first Dr Walker's receptionist and then Dr Walker himself.
I read him your post Bella and he would love to talk to you as he can't recall saying anything of the kind to anyone. He did assure me that his clinic is an avian clinic, and as feral pigeons fall in the category of avian, they will be treated too. It was lovely talking to him and he seemed like the caring person others have told me he is.
The receptionist told me that the clinic is not set up to be a drop off for injured or ill feral pigeons as it is illegal in Australia to release back into the wild and the clinic doesn't have a place to keep feral pigeons on a permanent basis. The finder would need to accept responsibility financially for treatment as well as what happens once the treatment is over and the bird recovered.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

With due respect Charis, That is not what Colin Walker said to me on either occasion, and I would definitely not continue beating my head on a brick wall with that avenue. You probably put him on the spot with confronting him with what I've revealed about his attitudes on a public forum, however. Of course in that situation he's going to try to protect his reputation. But I was simply pleading him for help with some wild banded King Pigeons (probably someone's free flying pets), and instead I got a lecture about how feral pigeons are pests and he thinks they should all be killed. He said `no' to allowing me to buy any medication from him whatsoever, so what he told you about selling meds to people who help feral pigeons is a lie.

Dr Walker's attitudes towards ferals are in no way unique in Australia. Its identical to all the vets and wildlife carers I've turned to desperately for help with feral pigeons. I've explored every honest and legal avenue for help in my country, to no avail. 

Which is why I started this thread....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...generally, unless one has established a good relationship with a Vet, where the Vet is casually comfortable respecting the acumen and judgement of the person, and or is glad to do a fast exam now and then, or a simple procedure, just to be a good sport in regard toward what they know to be the Care Giver's committment and cumulative experience to manage tings to good outcomes, unless those things are ( or sometimes, even WITH those things ) in place, it is a little more complicated, diplomatic, delicate even, than one would have wished, any time one is appealing to a Vet ( especially an Avian Vet ) for anything.


Technically, ethically ( unless confident in their own Istory and acquaintance, in the experience and judgement of the person appealing to them where the ethics then become more as if another Vet was saying "Say, can I get some XYZ from you, I ran out!) ) they have to examine a patient before prescribing, giving away, recommending, or selling any medications, or defining or recommending any regimens, and, this then typically involves some hefty costs and time and logsitics to the person seeking advice or info or meds.


Vets normally hate it if a person has arrived at a clear or decisive diagnosis prior to making their appeal for an evaluation, and or, the Vet will get his back up over it and so on if a person 'simply' wishes to get some Meds for treating an illness or other condition the Vet has not him or herself diagnosed.


It is all kind of dicey at best.


Few Avain Vets have any practical recognitions of the medley or syndromes or combinations of illnesses or means and management for recovery ( or even recognise the illnesses themselves ) which we often see in our Wild Birds, and, even if they manage to get part of a diagnosis right, they tend to miss the rest of it, and, for all the dough and heartache and time and so on the Care Giver spends, the Bird worstens or dies for want of right diagnosis, and or for want of on-going critical and detailed evaluations and adjustments or chanes to the regimen which are beyond the scope of what a Vet does or has experience to do.


None of this is easy, and, a lot of it is far from easy!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi there!
> 
> Firstly, great work with rescuing your pigeon; its great to hear he's doing so well! I'm so glad you wrote before taking him to the wildlife sanctuary. Its almost 100% likely that the Vet would have killed him.
> 
> ...



Bella, what diseases do you think that ferals carry that our loft birds don't?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, what diseases do you think that ferals carry that our loft birds don't?



Oh yeahhh...


Personally, I would be a lot more cautious getting in an escaped Loft Bird, than I would ever be with getting in a Wild/Feral Pigeon.


Flock-meds, and other factors of care and habitat, occasion incubators for resistent strains of illnesses in Lofts, unseen in the Wild.

Non symptomatic resistive carriers of Virsuses also, may be expected of Loft Birds, and, pretty well not of the Wild or Feral Birds, other than for pre-symptomaic incubation periods.


Far as I am concerned, the Wild or Feral Pigeons generally are healthier and less a worry for any 'carrying' of malady, than Loft or Flight Pen or Racing or Show or other Birds.



Phil
Lv


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Bella, thanks again - our 'boy' (?) is a baby. He is approx. 18 days old and we have had him for a week. You can follow this newbies progress if you do a search for the posts in my name - Podgys Mum. My husband sent an email to the Wildlife Sanctuary here so it will be interesting to hear what they have to say. He made sure he mentioned that our bird was a city pigeon. I have heard the phrase 'free flying pets' a couple of times. I am assuming these are birds that come and go but get their food and water from their human family? Do they stay human friendly? We had a strange experience about 5 months ago, my children were outside playing when a pigeon tried to land on thier heads. Very freaky and you can imagine the excitement of my kiddies. I went out and he came straight up onto my head. So cool. We put him into an old guinea pig hutch for the night, fed and watered him but left the door open so he could go out in the morning if he wanted to. When I went out the next day he was gone. I was surprised at how sad I felt at his going. I hope that we did the right thing. Maybe he was lost and needed to be taken in. Anyway, we'll never know and now we have this little fellow who has 'found' us! he is beautiful.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, what diseases do you think that ferals carry that our loft birds don't?


I dont think Bella is saying they carry any particular diseases that loft birds DONT. 
The way I read it is that people with Loft birds would be wary to take in a feral that may possibly be carrying something they DONT WANT introduced to their loft, which is only natural, and since it looks like most vets wont treat or check ferals, theres no guarantee they would be 100% safe to take in therefore a catch 22 situation.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> None of this is easy, and, a lot of it is far from easy!


Thank you very much for acknowledging this, Phil. I must admit I have been feeling a little uncomfortable with the direction this thread has taken. I've spent the past two years seriously and desperately exploring all of my options. And its been hurtful and demoralising at times. On the other hand, I've had terrific experiences when it comes to helping native birds. Vets are required by law to assist them for free, and there is a wealth of expertise amongst local wildlife carers in this area. Its just a different story with the feral pigeons 

We do have an Avian vet in my area, though unfortunately they are 3 hours away & heavily booked, and the costs are prohibitive when you get up to ten sick birds a month. Also....I consider my relationship with that vet extremely important. I am not a good liar, and I suppose I didn't want to start off that relationship with lies, or worse, with lies that are not believed. But now i see I probably made a mistake with having that attitude. I guess i didn't expect so little help from animal health workers with feral pigeons in need, and if I'd known I would have built my relationships with local vets differently.

Thanks for understanding Phil, and i know you do.

X bella


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> With due respect Charis, That is not what Colin Walker said to me on either occasion, and I would definitely not continue beating my head on a brick wall with that avenue. You probably put him on the spot with confronting him with what I've revealed about his attitudes on a public forum, however. Of course in that situation he's going to try to protect his reputation. But I was simply pleading him for help with some wild banded King Pigeons (probably someone's free flying pets), and instead I got a lecture about how feral pigeons are pests and he thinks they should all be killed. He said `no' to allowing me to buy any medication from him whatsoever, so what he told you about selling meds to people who help feral pigeons is a lie.
> 
> Dr Walker's attitudes towards ferals are in no way unique in Australia. Its identical to all the vets and wildlife carers I've turned to desperately for help with feral pigeons. I've explored every honest and legal avenue for help in my country, to no avail.
> 
> Which is why I started this thread....


Ah Bella...I didn't speak to him in a way that would put him on the spot.

If one drops a pigeon off at a clinic or rescue, in Australia, it seems you can expect the pigeon be euthanised. *If you take the pigeon to the vet and accept responsibility financially and do not involve the clinic in release plans, the pigeon will be treated. *
Other folks have done just that, accepted responsibility and had no problems.


Here's a link to some pigeon supplies you can buy in Australia, via Ebay.

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Racing-Pigeon-Store


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Quazar said:


> I dont think Bella is saying they carry any particular diseases that loft birds DONT.
> The way I read it is that people with Loft birds would be wary to take in a feral that may possibly be carrying something they DONT WANT introduced to their loft, which is only natural, and since it looks like most vets wont treat or check ferals, theres no guarantee they would be 100% safe to take in therefore a catch 22 situation.


Thanks Quazar, yes that what I meant exactly. I was thinking specifically how some diseases like Paratyphoid are very difficult to test for unless they are shedding at the time, and unless they have been treated with baytril, they can be carriers for life. There are some viruses I have read about, too, where a healthy looking bird can be a carrier for life also. So I would expect that some, if not most, pigeon owners would be cautious about taking in feral pigeon from unknown origins?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I myself take Bella at her word of her conversations with Dr. Walker, she has no axe to grind that I can see, seems she just was reporting some first hand knowledge of her experience, which might not necessarily be everyone's experience in dealing with his clinic. I also take her at her word of her conversations with the vet technician, on her comments about what many Wildlife centers in Australia do with ferals, again I can see no axe to grind, again from Bella, or the vet nurse, seems the nurse was stating her observations of the way many places deal with pigeons.

I think the best recommendation for a Wildlife/Rescue/Rehab Center would be direct knowledge coming from one of our members here. For example a while back Jaye made some comments, in one post in particular, about his experience/knowledge in warning about taking rescued birds to a certain center in his area, I trust his words and would not take a bird there, if I lived in the area. 

I think the only other way one could be certain would be to visit a center that says they rescue/rehab/take in feral pigeons and not only ask about their policies, because they could be less than honest by just mouthing off some feel good words, making the caregiver feel like what a great thing they are doing brining in the bird to them, and the reality of what happens to that bird when the rescuer leaves could be very different. I would ask to see their pigeon section, if they say they don't have any at the moment, I would not leave bird there, with the amount of pigeons around and how often they do need help, they should have some birds under treatment around. 

Next, I would want to know if it is judged that a bird would not make it in the wild, whether from not making a full recovery from illness/injuries, or a bird is judged to be too human bonded, what would happen to that bird (most would PTS), if they say they adopt these birds out I would like able to be in contact with at least a few of these people who have adopted. Moreover, if they say they are sent to a forever home/sanctuary, I would want the address so I could visit to confirm conditions and what they are saying is factual.

I remember in another thread someone once again being candid with a rescuer in saying that pigeons are so common that they really don't put much effort into them and most are euthanized if any real time or effort are needed for them.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Ah Bella...I didn't speak to him in a way that would put him on the spot.
> 
> If one drops a pigeon off at a clinic or rescue, in Australia, it seems you can expect the pigeon be euthanised.


Charis, Yes, I do know this; in fact I was the one to tell you about the laws in Australia and that wildlife carers and vets euthanise feral pigeons upon presentation in Australia. And, no, vets and some wildlife carers do not tell you this in advance; I learned this the hard way via follow up calls. 

Colin Walker works in Victoria, which is in another area of the country. I rang him to buy Spartrix . I was told `no' and then I got the speil about how he thinks all ferals should be killed . 

As for saying I `should' take every rescue to an Avian vet, its not always possible to get them there in time when they are so ill. And the costs are way beyond what I can afford. I see a LOT of sick birds, Charis. If I took every sick bird I took in to an avian vet last month, I'd be $2000 out of pocket in travel & consult fees, and meds on top of that (and I don't have that sort of money).

I don't know why you're being so undermining anyway. You're acting like I haven't tried hard enough, and I don't appreciate this at all. You don't live here; you don't know what its like.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, those who have Loft Birds would be understandably wary of admitting an erstwhile 'Feral' or Wild Pigweon, even as those who may have some free fly or non-releaseable ex-feral, ex-Wild Pigeons, would be wary of introducing an erstwhile Loft Bird.


Regardless of provenance, one does well to quarenteen any New Bird for a month or so to observe them and make sure all seems well, before letting that Bird be among one's others.



Babys are different, but, far as Adults or fledglings even go...


If they have PPMV or a Paratyphoid and are not symptomatic yet, it could be bad for all if they were merely let loose among one's others without a quarenteen time to decide if all is well or not.


Paratypoid there may be no symptoms at all anyway, so, unless one treats for it out or principle, it could get past a usual Quarenteen.




Anyway, I always made it clear from the get-go, with any Vets I had dealt with, that I have a Wild Pigeon, and, I am the Care Giver, and if all goes well the Bird will be released once well and recovered, or, if non-release-able due to handicap, they will just live with me.

I do not remember ever fibbing about anything with my communications with any Vets. I have always played it straight and clear matter-of-fact, and as short and sweet as possible, and, if it was what they liked to hear, great, if not, oh well.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato said:


> I myself take Bella at her word of her conversations with Dr. Walker, she has no axe to grind that I can see, seems she just was reporting some first hand knowledge of her experience, which might not necessarily be everyone's experience in dealing with his clinic. I also take her at her word of her conversations with the vet technician, on her comments about many Wildlife centers in Australia do with ferals, again I can see no axe to grind, again from Bella, or the vet nurse, seems the nurse was stating her observations of the way many places deal with pigeons.
> 
> I think the best recommendation for a Wildlife/Rescue/Rehab Center would be direct knowledge coming from one of our members here. For example a while back Jaye made some comments, in one post in particular, about his experience/knowledge in warning about taking rescued birds to a certain center in his area, I trust his words and would not take a bird there, if I lived in the area.
> 
> ...



That is the deal with various places here also...even if they do some glad hand or positive jive to make you feel good.

If one can bring the Bird in, obtain an examination and prescription or procedure or whatever, pay them something, and, bring the Bird home and go from there...that is one thing.


Anywhere you drop off a sick or injured Bird ( pretty well no matter what species, even endangered or protected Species ) , it is going to be almost certainly a perfunctory eutenasia before the Door can hit you in the Caboose on your way out.


Of course the Law here require that no lay person even touch a found Feather laying in the Street of any endangered Species, and, prohibits even touching a protected Species, if one braves that to bring a sick or injured of either, to any of the designated Vets or other Stations or federal License Holders, it is almost certain, that if the Bird looks like it is going to require any real care, intelligence, involvement, or work, or if it's prospects for recovery are good, but, not likely to be release-able with 100 percent function/flight/whatever, it will be euthenised.


So...


That's just how it is...


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Podgy's Mum said:


> Hi Bella, thanks again - our 'boy' (?) is a baby. He is approx. 18 days old and we have had him for a week. You can follow this newbies progress if you do a search for the posts in my name - Podgys Mum. My husband sent an email to the Wildlife Sanctuary here so it will be interesting to hear what they have to say. He made sure he mentioned that our bird was a city pigeon. I have heard the phrase 'free flying pets' a couple of times. I am assuming these are birds that come and go but get their food and water from their human family? Do they stay human friendly? We had a strange experience about 5 months ago, my children were outside playing when a pigeon tried to land on thier heads. Very freaky and you can imagine the excitement of my kiddies. I went out and he came straight up onto my head. So cool. We put him into an old guinea pig hutch for the night, fed and watered him but left the door open so he could go out in the morning if he wanted to. When I went out the next day he was gone. I was surprised at how sad I felt at his going. I hope that we did the right thing. Maybe he was lost and needed to be taken in. Anyway, we'll never know and now we have this little fellow who has 'found' us! he is beautiful.


Dear Podgy,

Regarding the little guy you met 5 months ago, it sounds like it was raised by a human for sure. A squeaker I raised used to love landing on my head too He may have been a free flying pet, with a coup to go back to at night.? Its easier to train them to do this if they are raised from babies (I've read here).

I hope the wildlife sanctuary are straightforward with you about what would happen to your little friend if you take him there. But mostly I hope it works out.

x bella


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Charis, Yes, I do know this; in fact I was the one to tell you about the laws in Australia and that wildlife carers and vets euthanise feral pigeons upon presentation in Australia. And, no, vets and some wildlife carers do not tell you this in advance; I learned this the hard way via follow up calls.
> 
> Colin Walker works in Victoria, which is in another area of the country. I rang him to buy Spartrix . I was told `no' and then I got the speil about how he thinks all ferals should be killed .
> 
> ...


Well, any Vet would pretty well have to say "No" if asked about wishing to purchase some Meds.


The Vet is obliged and Hog Tied in many ways to do an examination of the actual Patient, prior to issueing any prescription or advice even about regimen.

If it ever got out that a Vet sold ( or even gave away ) some Meds without doing an exam of the Patient, it could embarass him or her as well as possibly cause them to suffer fines or punishments from whatever governing Body or Board as happens to oversee Veterinarian Practice and Licensing in their area.


Too, enemies or competitors can send in shills to try and trick a good natured Vet into positions of ethical or legal or Medical-practice compromise with regard to standards heavily recommended for them in their area by whatever governing Board or Body, where, bad things can then happen to the Vet for having been merely good natured or casual or for having gone around some usual means or method.


For all my many complaints about Vets, they do have many Head Aches and concerns and conflicts and difficulties which we might not be aware of.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn and Phil,

Thanks for sharing your experiences and reservations surrounding handing pigeons over to some wildlife carers. Our laws are (apparently) slightly different, in that feral pigeons are not allowed to be released full stop.

Its a stupid archaic law, that originally referred to the practice of bringing feral animals and birds into the country and releasing them. But somehow the veterinary profession has latched onto it and broadened its meaning to include not releasing formerly wild pigeons who have been captured for medical care. I have my doubts that anyone other than vets enforce the law in quite this way.

I feel that I have been so naive. Every time I handed over a pigeon for care, it has been euthanised. After the first time this happened, I started questioning carers a bit more thoroughly, and they said things like `oh, we have the birds best interests at heart, you needn't worry' and `oh no, we wouldn't just euthanize a bird that can be helped'. But when i called back, the story had changed to `oh, we had to kill it because its feral animal and they can't be released'.

PS. I can accept the logic behind vets not giving out meds, especially antibiotics. My only issue with Dr Colin Walker is he apparently gives out meds for non ferals, according to this forum. So his choices are based on personal preference.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

There's big Dough for a Vet who has the right schmose, and who caters to wealthy Racers and Show-Bird people.


Does not mean he or she would walk four feet out of their Way to help one if no dough, though.


Anymore I have come to dislike the word, and the use of the word 'feral' in context of Pigeons.


For all practical and reasonable and humane purposes, these are simply Wild Birds, Wild Rock Doves, regardless of supposed and long ago provenance or occasional inclusion of the now and then escapee from whatever kind of kept.

Nor do we have any proof that the European Rock Dove was not represented in other areas of the Globe in times of human prehistory, for that matter.


'feral' is a kind of connotative pejorative which taints the whole for being merely, at best, a slim abstract attribution in itself, and of no real meaning or value in any way whatever.

A Specis is somehow supposed to be less valid or less intrinsically meritorious for having not been here in conspicuous Wild abundance prior to the advent of the European colonization of the last few centuries?

If all the Pigeons people are supposed to have brought to new Lands, were Homers and Show Birds, then why are all the so called 'feral' Pigeons exactly like the European Rock Doves?


Are we supposed to believe that all such escapees or turn-loosed ones, 'revert' genetically to their basal forms so fast?


And if they do, are they then indeed the same Birds who had been as individuals, technically 'feral'?


Oye...what a thought-mess!


I think it all needs to be re-thought!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> There's big Dough for a Vet who has the right schmose, and who caters to wealthy Racers and Show-Bird people.
> 
> 
> Does not mean he or she would walk four feet out of their Way to help one if no dough, though.
> ...


Amen. Phil....very well said. But now you've got me started, lol...

The most hypocritical thing of all, to me, is white people in my country are also `ferals', as well as a far more destructive pest species than any other animal alive. In 200 years we've wiped out 200 species to the point of extinction in Australia, and deforested almost the whole continent. We brought pigeons here for our emotional comfort, to remind us of England. Now they have been abandoned and deemed vermin. 

I guess I just don't buy into the idea of other species as being `less than'. And coming from that position, I find it hypocritical of humans to deem another species as vermin, considering the damage we are doing to this planet, and considering these `vermin' are here because we brought them here.


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Bella,



> Regarding the little guy you met 5 months ago, it sounds like it was raised by a human for sure. A squeaker I raised used to love landing on my head too He may have been a free flying pet, with a coup to go back to at night.? Its easier to train them to do this if they are raised from babies (I've read here).


Can you advise me on training a pigeon to come back to his coop?? Where would that thread be?? 

What is a squeaker? is that what they are called from a particular age? When is that? 

I would like to keep my Podgy safe but still able to fly rather than being cooped up forever. I was surprised to see some "Pidgeon Pants" here in a petstore I went to today. I will have to let my husband know about these, but I have a suspicion he will laugh his head off at my suggestion of putting Podgy into a 'nappy'!!  LOL

Nice to hear from a fellow Aussie. It will make finding stuff I need a little easier hopefully. It is strange that there is no mention of pigeons in any of the pet stores I have been too. I bought some Neocare baby formula today - the Wombaroo stuff was awful. What do you use??

My first visit was to City Farmers and the advice from there first of all was "take it to a vet and have it put down". When I made it clear that wasnt going to happen she suggested a wildlife sanctuary. This is under discussion between my husband and I at the moment - but from what I am reading, probably a "no go!!"

Thanks for your input.

Dana


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, 'feral' is supposed to denote a formerly Domesticated Animal, who has been set loose, or, escaped, to then live with whatever success, without the amenities of Domestication.


With this in mind, there would not tend to be very many occasions of truely 'feral' people.

Though pretty well all Domestic or Livestock Catagories of Animals, Chickens, Ducks, Geese, Rabbets, Goats, Cows, Chickens, Horses, Parrots, Pigeons ( when not hampered unduely by 'Show' or 'Breed' qualities) etc, appear to manage just fine if allowed to resume a Wild Life, so long as the clime and terrain and possible/available foods are roughly within that of their abilities to get by on.


Technically, or, Zoologically, people are an order of Domesticated Primate, and, Historically, have been an ( increasingly ) invasive Species, even if their being an invasive Species is predicated on their also being a Domesticated and relatively organized one, able to act n concert in various ways, which as a Species, actually has extremely few 'feral' members as such.


Personally, in such appreciation of History as I am able so far to have, I do not find our broader arrangements as a Species or as Peoples within the Species, to have been handled well, or, I find disappointment in the values and quality of how so many things are and have been handled, especially in instances of those posessing the means to impose.


If it'd all been up to me, it sure would all have gone a lot different!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Podgy's Mum said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> 
> 
> Can you advise me on training a pigeon to come back to his coop?? Where would that thread be??




Was not to me, but...


As a fledgling grows in confidence and ability, his or her innate drive would be to leave the 'Nest' and to leave the context locally or personally of those who raised him or her, and, to make their own way in the World, as is right and proper and self respecting for them to do.



A male Pigeon, posessing and able to assert 'ownership' of a Territory which has amenities, may attract a Hen to join him and is she approves of the setting, to build a Best and make babys.

A Hen, regardless of local amentities, will fly off with a Male to evaluate his offering of setting and amenity.


This is not to say they will always eschew an already familiar situation of amenity when coming of age, but, it is also to say, that their ingenuous self posession can be compromised in conditions of being people-raised, to where they are not operating from the same platform they would have, if raised in the Wild, of course.



> What is a squeaker? is that what they are called from a particular age? When is that?



It is a casual and imprecise term.


'Peepers' when they are still fairly small or unto being a 'Quill Baby'...


"Squeaker" once the Quill phase is yielding to the Feathered phase.


"Fledgling" once beginning to fly and explore their surrounds, and, learning the way to independence and self reliance.





> I would like to keep my Podgy safe but still able to fly rather than being cooped up forever. I was surprised to see some "Pidgeon Pants" here in a petstore I went to today. I will have to let my husband know about these, but I have a suspicion he will laugh his head off at my suggestion of putting Podgy into a 'nappy'!!  LOL



Well...to be fair to the Bird, is another matter.




> Nice to hear from a fellow Aussie. It will make finding stuff I need a little easier hopefully. It is strange that there is no mention of pigeons in any of the pet stores I have been too. I bought some Neocare baby formula today - the Wombaroo stuff was awful. What do you use??
> 
> My first visit was to City Farmers and the advice from there first of all was "take it to a vet and have it put down". When I made it clear that wasnt going to happen she suggested a wildlife sanctuary. This is under discussion between my husband and I at the moment - but from what I am reading, probably a "no go!!"
> 
> ...




He or she can simply be on Seeds from here on...unless suspecting a Nutritional deficiency requiring suppliment or augmentation via special formulas, there is no reason to be keeping on with the formula unless the Bird especially insists you do so, AND is already self feeding on his or her own via Pecking their Seeds.


Otherwise you will be training them to have weaning issues and other troubles...

Work with them on pecking...'peck' with them...do 'Hand Beak' with real Seeds if they are asking to be fed.



Phil
Lv


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks again Phil, wish I asked the question about formula before I went and spent $30 on this packet  We ran out of the Wombaroo brand this morning. Podgy is quite happy pecking at seeds himself now but still goes loco when he sees his syringe feeder. I will keep him having formula maybe just once a day now and put a bowl of seed in his box - or will he gorge himself if I do this? Should I just let him out into the 'feeding box' and let him peck for awhile?

Dana


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, when I hand raise a baby, who I am weaning to seeds, I will move from feeding them formula 2-3 times a day to once, late night (a good amount) this way they wake with an empty crop, so they are motivated to self-feed through the day. By doing this, at least for me, the late meal ensures that they are being supported for a bit with some daily good nutrition through this transition period.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Podgy's Mum,

I just wanted to let you know that I am not very experienced in raising pigeons and I not own any right now. I consider myself a carer in training. People like Karyn, Phil, John D, Charis, and many others here are very experienced and would give you much better answers to your questions. However, I am doing my best to get together medications for common illnesses, and you are welcome to contact me any time if you need something.

X bella


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Podgy's Mum said:


> Thanks again Phil, wish I asked the question about formula before I went and spent $30 on this packet  We ran out of the Wombaroo brand this morning. Podgy is quite happy pecking at seeds himself now but still goes loco when he sees his syringe feeder. I will keep him having formula maybe just once a day now and put a bowl of seed in his box - or will he gorge himself if I do this? Should I just let him out into the 'feeding box' and let him peck for awhile?
> 
> Dana




Hi Dana,


For the time being, only have him eating Seeds with you 'pecking' with him intermittently, and, supervising him and offering praise and admirations to his pecking accomplishmens and to his growing up.

Be with him with his Pecking.

It is a social-emotional thing for them, and, with no sibling or Pigeon Parent to eat with them, it falls to you to do.



No unsuperivsed access to Seeds for the time being.


They can, and will, over-eat and over-stuff their Crop sometimes, so, supervise his pecking by being with him in his Meal Times and 'pecking' also, and, have him leave off once he is reasonably full.


Continue with the formula if you like as Karyn mentions or, as a once-a-day thing.

Bearing in mind, that what is most meaningful or important to him now, as himself, is your being a part of his eating, even if you are not feeding him literally, so, light pretend-pecking with him will satisfy that just fine.


Phil
Lv


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Going back to the original topic...

Thanks for the tip on amoxicillin! It's only sold under prescription here, I didn't know it was used for fish. I guess it's used for dogs and cats too.
Stupid question: are fish meds water soluble? I'd imagine yes, but dunno.

My $0,02, I hope it is useful:
_Note: I assume that you can go to a vet and ask for any med without prescription, here it is that way. Never heard about it being otherwise in other countries, but if that is the case, good luck .
Also, when I say "used in...", it means "used at least in...". I mention just the ones I know._




*Antibiotics:*
Here I included some very widely used meds for pigeons.

Baytril: Its drug is _enrofloxacin,_ widely used in dogs. You can get it at any vet .

Cypro: Its drug is _cyprofloxacin,_ widely used in dogs, cats, and humans. You can get it at any vet and I'm not sure if it requires prescription for the human "version".

Keflex: Its drug is _cephalexin,_ widely used in dogs and humans, too. You can also get it at any vet or pharmacy.

Amoxicillin: You can get it for humans too.

Vibramycin: Its drug is _doxycycline,_ used in dogs, cats, and humans. You can get it at any vet, and I'm not sure if it requires prescription for the human "version".

Terramycin: Its drug is _oxytretracycline,_ used in dogs, cats, and humans. You can get it at any vet, and I'm not sure if it requires prescription for the human "version".




*Coccidia:*
I don't have much experience with this but I did some research.

Corid: Its drug is _amprolium,_ and it is used for cattle. Check your "big animals" vet.

Sulmet: Its drug is _sulfadimidine (sulfamethazine),_ and it is not widely used as apparently it is carcinogenic, but some people still use it on dogs. For this reason you may be luckier if you are in a third world country. Check your vet .

Albon: I have just heard about this drug in the first post. Did some research on it... The drug's name is _sulfadimethoxine,_ and apparently it is widely used in dogs and cats. Lucky you! Go to your vet and get it .




*Canker:*
Good luck trying to find something else than metronidazole .

Flagyl: Its drug is _metronidazole,_ used in dogs, fishes, and humans. Get it at any vet.

Ridzol: Its drug is _ronidazole_ and it's not widely used in other animals (cats and dogs, at least). Give it a shot at your vet, you never know.

Emtryl: Its drug is _dimetridazole._ I have seen it used for dogs and cats, usually to combat giardiasis+coccidia, but I wouldn't say it is widely used. Anyways, I heard overdosage can be pretty dangerous with this so I wouldn't even try. Still, if I'm wrong, you can try at your vet.

Spartrix: Yes... I know you were waiting for this one . Its drug is _carnidazole._ I sincerely wish you luck finding it. I read somewhere that it was used on dogs, but here, vets have no idea what you're talking about when you ask them for this drug!



*Dewormers:*
I'm pretty sure you all can get ivermectin but I'll do a small summary anyways.

Ivomec or Eqvalen: Its drug is _ivermectin._ Used in cows, sheep, horses, cats, dogs... whatever. What in earth would we do without it? You can get it at any vet.

Panacur: Its drug is _fenbendazole_ and it is used in dogs, cats, fish, and cattle. Get it at your vet. There are some mixed views on this drug though.

Telmintic: Its drug is _mebendazole,_ and it is used in dogs, cats, and humans. Get it at your vet. I'm not sure if it requires prescription if you plan on getting the one for humans.

Droncit: Its drug is _praziquantel,_ and it is used in dogs, cats, and humans. Get it at your vet. I'm not sure if it requires prescription if you plan on getting the one for humans.

Tramisol: Its drug is _levamisole_ and it is used in dogs and cats. I own this one. Pretty bad dewormer, I heard, and it gets toxic once it expires.



*Candida:*
I was asked about this one a bit ago so I'll write what I researched .

Medistatin: Its drug is _nystatin,_ and it's used in humans orally, and _I think_ that it is also used for dogs (orally). I don't know much about this one, give it a shot at the vet and the pharmacy (I don't know if it requires prescription).





... PHEW! That was a loooong thing to write!

Edit: And I sent it, and my session had timed out, I thought I had lost everything! I almost die .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

That's great pawbla! You have some really good options for medicine in your country. I really appreciate the list of different names for common medications too.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah, we basically can get any vet med that is more or less widely used without prescription (big win! If not, you can talk the vet who doesn't know a thing about birds into it). Problem arises when we need human alternatives!

The drugs I can easily get are few but they are at least one of the group: Enrofloxacin, cephalexin, a med in the sulfa group (can't remember which one), metronidazole, and ivermectin. Never tried to get nystatin but I imagine I would have some trouble with it :S


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Interestingly, I have so far found that Foy's, Siegel and Global do not ship pigeon meds to the UK.

Just had a response from Jedds, though, to say they will do so.

I may test that out.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

John_D said:


> Interestingly, I have so far found that Foy's, Siegel and Global do not ship pigeon meds to the UK.
> 
> Just had a response from Jedds, though, to say they will do so.
> 
> I may test that out.


Dear John,

Thanks HEAPS for the tip! Jedd's must be one of the places I hadn't tried out after all...my apologies.

I just tested their shopping cart (JEDDS) and Australia is on the list of countries where they will ship medicine. It looks like I can complete the checkout process. This is so great, I almost feel like crying. They have such a huge, awesome range of things I need.

Have you ever used them?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Bella

Haven't yet tried them, just had the reply from them this morning.

Will be making a list now, though


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Tell us when/if you receive the meds from them!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hey Bella. I just received this email from Dr. Walker and he said it was okay to post it in this thread.


Hi Charis,

Thanks for your email. It was nice speaking to you the other day. It can be difficult for vets in Australia when they are presented with feral pigeons. Australia is still a relatively new country. With European colonization a number of species were introduced. These have displaced many Australian indigenous species. In Australia it is illegal to treat with a view to release any feral animal. This includes foxes, rabbits, feral cats, cane toads, sparrows, black birds and also non-native pigeons. We certainly however have no problem with providing veterinary care for sick or injured feral birds if people intend keeping them as a pet. Like most veterinarians we make no charge for veterinary service in this situation but ask people to contribute to the cost of medication etc. Perhaps you could pass my email and comments onto Bella. If she would like to ring me I would be happy to speak to her.

With regards,
Colin Walker
Melbourne Bird Veterinary Clinic


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...if residing in Oz, one must simply say..."It's a previously feral Bird whom I have now adopted as a Pet."


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Looks like all you have to do is say it is now yours and you are not going to be releasing it. Sounds pretty easy if you ask me.
Thanks for sharing that Charis.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Charis. yes, I already know this. As I've already shared, I do understand that vets in Australia won't provide medical help for wild feral pigeons. They offer euthanasia and that's all. I've heard this phrased in many `very nice' ways now, usually after the fact.

I think it would be truthful to stop recommending Dr Colin Walker's services for people trying to provide care for wild feral pigeons. He's probably excellent at treating racers and people's pets; of that I have no doubt. But like he mentioned, he doesn't provide help for non-natives.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Looks like all you have to do is say it is now yours and you are not going to be releasing it. Sounds pretty easy if you ask me.
> Thanks for sharing that Charis.


Well yes, if people on this forum would stop saying `call Colin walker' whenever you have a sick feral. This is how I got into trouble. I didn't lie, and noone mentioned that I had to.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think it was Sir Thomas Moore who had observed - 


"We serve GOD from within the tangles of our Wits."


I myself am not Religeous, but, I appreciate the potential sagacity and delicacy of Sir Thomas Moore's observation.


One could always say, "If you need to hear that this is a 'pet', in order for my appeals for help or treatment for this Bird to be answered, with the understanding that I shall care for the Bird hereafter, to the best out-come possible, so be it...consider it said."


I doubt anyone would wish or assert for further interrogitory process on that! 

And, or, they may well appreciate that it lets them off-the-Hook nicely enough.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil.

I'd like to think that of Colin Walker and any animal health professional, but I don't think thats the kind of person he is, based on the lectures he gave me about how he personally thinks Feral pigeons should all be destroyed. The second time I spoke to him , I didn't get a word in. He had no idea what my issue was , where I lived, or that it concerned ferals. He just launched into his personal anti-feral propaganda machine. I had waited a week for that conversation and I was bitterly dosappointed. I had mentioned this forum and how he came recommended.

Also, he's not someone you can just call up and speak to. I've called him twice in utter desperation, and the receptionist made an appointment for me to talk to him within several days.The second time the appointment was a week after I called. So I'm kind of surprised that Charis was able to to talk to him personally without a prior appointment, and before business hours to boot. I suppose being an American pigeon forum owner counts for something. But what of we Australians, who just care about the suffering of wild pigeons? Who don't lie by nature? And are told that Colin is a great guy and to call him?

I think what needs to be said is that Colin Walker will not help people with ferals, and he doesn't care about them. He will give meds to pet owners and racers without prescription only. 

Makes me half want to report him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Well yes, if people on this forum would stop saying `call Colin walker' whenever you have a sick feral. This is how I got into trouble.* I didn't lie, and noone mentioned that I had to.*





Well even around here, there are many vets that will not treat wild birds or feral pigeons. If you can not find a vet who will, then it is just of course, simpler to say that you have a pet pigeon who needs treatment. I don't see it as a huge lie, and getting treatment for the bird is more important than whether or not I have to claim it as a pet. Getting the treatment is what is important, not the vets principles. I would do what I have to to help the bird.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> Well even around here, there are many vets that will not treat wild birds or feral pigeons. If you can not find a vet who will, then it is just of course, simpler to say that you have a pet pigeon who needs treatment.


Jay, I have no issues with people doing whatever they have to do in order to get the medical care they need for their wild birds. 

The only point I'm trying to get across is that some members on this forum still impart a certain amount of disinformation about what Colin Walker is able to offer *You can't just call him up and ask for help or medicine for sick feral pigeons *. I discovered this from my own personal experiences & my first thread about it was back in April 2009 here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/its-illegal-to-re-release-rescued-pigeons-in-oz-34809.html

In spite of this, people here are still recommending to call Dr Walker when they find sick feral pigeons, without mentioning that he won't help unless its a pet (or said to be a pet). Therefore the poor bird doesn't get the care or medicine it needs, and the person who found it gets an earful from Dr Walker about how feral Pigeons should all be killed.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Well! From the email, he certainly seems like a nice guy, he just doesn't want to get in trouble and he wants to preserve the indigenous species. On the other side, your experience with the anti-feral talk makes me wonder if that is all true. But I really wouldn't know as I haven't met him. However, maybe this "ferals are ok" thing is because he doesn't want to lose patients. You never know how people really are!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Well! From the email, he certainly seems like a nice guy, he just doesn't want to get in trouble and he wants to preserve the indigenous species. On the other side, your experience with the anti-feral talk makes me wonder if that is all true. But I really wouldn't know as I haven't met him. However, maybe this "ferals are ok" thing is because he doesn't want to lose patients. You never know how people really are!


Pawbla, Yes, I don't really know  The attitude Dr Walker expressed to me was very much typically Australian & I do not wish to single him out as being unusually callous, as he's not. Its just that it took me by surprise because of his reputation on this forum. 

Normally Animal health care workers in Australia behave in a more sympathetic way & hide their personal feelings about feral pigeons somewhat. I mean some of them lie to you point blank, saying they will help sick ferals & will not euthanise a feral with a curable illness if you hand them over to them for care. But then later I've discovered that they killed them as soon as I left. 

Dr walker was more upfront with me about what he personally thinks of ferals. I suppose that it is a positve trait in a way. But at the time it left me very confused. He was the first Vet or carer I came across who directly said that feral pigeons are legally not entitled to any veterinary care in Australia. But other professionals I was dealing with- vets & wildlife carers- told me they did treat ferals. 

I guess all I'm saying is the `feral non-release' law totally confuses me . It seems a matter of preference whether animal health workers conform to it or not. We also have the RSPCA (animal welfare) and certain laws that protect wildlife from cruelty and suffering- you'd think Vets would be more likely to identify with those laws & use them to justify helping suffering feral animals ....I just wonder why they do not?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Think what we have is different perceptions depending on what contact members have had with Dr Walker and what information they volunteered.

As far as I'm aware, only one member has actually been to the Knox clinic and he said the pigeon was a pet.

I don't know if any other members have sought to obtain medications via phone consultation. Maybe, but I don't recall it. 

I think either Charis or another member had a chat with him a while back - but I stand to be corrected. - and I had a tentative diagnosis based on clinical history and a couple of pics (by email). Of course, if people from _outside_ Australia contact him, then he'd have no call to be blasting them about ferals.

Possibly, no-one (including me) would have thought of advising people to say that their feral rescue was a 'pet pigeon' without awareness of the wildlife laws about release of 'invasive' or 'pest' species in Australia. I understand from one of members in S.Africa that it's pretty much the same there. Here in the UK we tend to advise people to check a vet's policy before taking a bird, unless one of us has personal knowledge that the vet is 'OK'.

So, maybe we should just take this all into account at all times, for all countries - give advice on possible resources as seems appropriate, but also advise people to check vets' attitude to ferals or else claim the bird as a pet to be safe. 

As an aside: years back, when we took our newly-found injured 'Pumpkin' to a vet, the reception manager took the pigeon and just said "Do what we always do with these..". Alarm bells rang, and we grabbed her back and told them she would be living with us. Grudgingly, they supplied a small amount of antibiotic at no small price. We never took another pigeon there!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Pawbla, Yes, I don't really know  The attitude Dr Walker expressed to me was very much typically Australian & I do not wish to single him out as being unusually callous, as he's not. Its just that it took me by surprise because of his reputation on this forum.
> 
> *Normally Animal health care workers in Australia behave in a more sympathetic way & hide their personal feelings about feral pigeons somewhat. I mean some of them lie to you point blank, saying they will help sick ferals & will not euthanise a feral with a curable illness if you hand them over to them for care. But then later I've discovered that they killed them as soon as I left. *
> 
> ...



This could be the problem Bella. You leave them with the facility, as ferals. If you do that, then they really have no option but to euthanise the bird. If the law states that they cannot be released, then what do these people do with them after they have treated them? Legally they can not release them. If you bring them in as your pet, pay for the treatment and take them with you when you leave, they wouldn't be euthanised. The facility can't treat them, if they can't be released. What ever Dr. Walker's opinion about ferals, I think you would get further bringing them in as your pet.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I really cannot let this thread pass without making some kind of comment, seeing as I have taken two feral birds to dr Colin walker. I am also aware of another pigeon member who takes her formerly feral there. 

I think sometimes it is important to remember that people who look to rehabilitate feral pigeons in Australia are perceieved as promoting a species which is regarded as both a pest species, a carrier of disease, and a bird that takes away territory and food supply from other native pigeons and other birds. From what you have said bella, you are well aware if the attitudes of 99 percent of Australians regarding ferals. I think all Australians should keep both this Australian viewpoint in mind, and also the difficult role of vets in mind when contacting them regarding feral species. Developing a good rapport with a vet requires diplomacy. I think we should respect that vets have a right to have their own personal opinions - disagree with them as you/we may. It's all about approach. And living in Australia, you need a good approach  is it fair that we should ask vets to go against tier own ethics and training re: ferals?

As someone who has been to dr Colin walkers clinic a number of times, I have found him to be incredibly passionate about pigeons. I think the clinic is quite flexible - if you send a fecal spec, it will be analysed and you can get medications with a telephone consult. Don't actually know of any other clinics that will do that.

I couldn't have found a better vet to take my first pigeon to than dr Colin walker - he even suggested that I train bong bong to free fly. First consult he spent perhaps an hour with me going well outside the call of duty! Running through everything I could possibly need to help my "feral" baby thrive. 

It is frankly not true to say that he is not helpful to people with feral pigeons and other non indigenous species. But I truly challenge you to give me the single details of a vet within Australia who will provide you with medications for a feral pigeon which you state you are intending to release. I also wonder if you paid for a telephone consult and sent fecal specs?

The irony is that I really get what you're saying in terms of the speciesism mankind shows by eliminating pigeons - and pretty much most things you have said regarding societies attitudes/treatment of pigeons. 

What concerns me is that this is a vet who is kinder than most and incredibly knowledgable regarding pigeons of all breeds and types. He is great resource. I worry that this discussion, aired publicly, could be viewed almost as defamation. Probably not likely to make him want To help other people with feral pigeons in future. This is a shame as he is a great resource, and champions for pigeons being seen as more than the "rodents with wings" stereotype". I know I am not the only person with a former feral who uses the clinic on pigeontalk, and have found him to be both helpful and forthright





The


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I just wanted to add Bella that my post is not intended as an attack on you - we actually have a lot of viewpoints in common. I have just experienced actually taking feral birds to the clinic (not just as a pet). Yes, you do have to take responsibility for the animal, calling it a pet.I guess I feel that it is it important that we acknowledge that our viewpoints are not shared by the majority of the population - and thus work within the mainstream societies constructs to get whT we want  

You are obviously incredibly compassionate, caring and dedicated to promoting the welfare of all birds that you find - and it is wonderful that we have a member up north on pigeon talk. I think that makes 3 regular Aussie members. I hope one day we can have a pigeon talk member in each state who can link people to resources in their area! Pheoar! Wouldn't that be amazing? Think what change we can bring about! 


Susie (Kamz)


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Kamz,

That only confirms what myself and others have been patiently trying to explain ; Dr Colin Walker will treat pets, but not ferals. Sounds like he will offer help for rescued ferals abroad, from what John is saying, because of different laws.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

kamz said:


> I just wanted to add Bella that my post is not intended as an attack on you - we actually have a lot of viewpoints in common. I have just experienced actually taking feral birds to the clinic (not just as a pet). Yes, you do have to take responsibility for the animal, calling it a pet.I guess I feel that it is it important that we acknowledge that our viewpoints are not shared by the majority of the population - and thus work within the mainstream societies constructs to get whT we want
> 
> You are obviously incredibly compassionate, caring and dedicated to promoting the welfare of all birds that you find - and it is wonderful that we have a member up north on pigeon talk. I think that makes 3 regular Aussie members. I hope one day we can have a pigeon talk member in each state who can link people to resources in their area! Pheoar! Wouldn't that be amazing? Think what change we can bring about!
> 
> ...


Dear Susie,

I totally understand. And thanks for explaining that you didn't intend to attack me...I can see what you mean about Dr Walker being a great Vet and I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't. I simply approached things the wrong way because I wasn't forewarned about our laws or Dr walker's stance with rescued ferals who are not pets. I posted my comments in order to provide that warning to others, so they won't have the same disappointing experiences I had. I hope I am getting this across ok?

I am really happy to meet another Australian member too. 

Hugs to you

X bella


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Wonderfully to the point Bella! I think you have raised a good point, and one that all members should be aware of before referring people with Feral pigeons to any avian vet. 

I remember as a child taking bird after bird to the vet for "treatment" which undoubtably was of the euthanasia variety. So sad in retrospect - and this thread may well stop people rescuing birds from leaving them to the same fate, and thus may be very important indeed. And, lol, I think a certain vet may find his pet pigeon client population goes up ;D 

So back to what u were originally talking about prior to this thread running off on a tangent - let's get it back on track!

Susie


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Bella_F said:


> But other professionals I was dealing with- vets & wildlife carers- told me they did treat ferals.


Some people say they do and, like you said, euthanize them right after you leave because of this law. That is the problem.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Great link pawl - you have compiled an awesome resource there


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

OMG!!!! JUST SAY THE BIRD IS A PET!!! TO GET TREATMENT!!!! but if you can not afford it then what is the point????? you can get meds for self help from jedds.. but you still have to know why and what you are giving...


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Thanks kamz


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot Kamz and Pawbla! I really appreciate the understanding you both have regarding the issues that can affect people living in countries with different laws, and different medications. 

Also, it is good to know with some certainty now, based on experiences other members have shared here, that animal health professionals won't always tell you upfront when they intend to PTS a rescued wild pigeon. This still confuses me, but at least I now know to be more wary and less trusting.

And thanks Kamz for pointing out the link in Pawbla's signature- I will check it out now.

X bella


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