# Crop still full & he keeps adjusting it.



## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Hello. I have an approx. 4 week old pigeon and it's sibling that came to me through animal rescue. Their crops don't seem to empty fully. One bird stays ballooned like at the bottom and the other birds is squishy. The ballooned bird keeps throwing up its food at even 3cc of Exact hand formula. He constantly moves it around and seems bothered by it.
I have tried warm water soak while massaging gently. (No internal water yet), reducing feedings, and feeding 3cc in the AM and nothing until 5PM. 

The other bird has stinky liquid poop. (same color as food)

Please advise on what to do. I have many birds, just never pigeons. So all help is welcome.
Thank You!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Sunnybubble, welcome to Pigeon-Talk and thanks for tying to help these little guys out.



> I have tried warm water soak while massaging gently. (No internal water yet)


Could explain this statement further, I am not quite sure what you mean, please describe in detail.

Was this a slow progressive thing, where, one day things were OK, then the next not, or did they start to slowly have more and more difficulty moving food through their GI system? Can you describe what you are feeding them, how much, how thick, how warm, how often? How much do they weigh? Do you know how to tubefeed/crop medicate? Do you have any ACV (apple cider vinegar, organic, with live "mother wort") around, or can you pick some up ASAP. What kind of meds do you have on hand if any? Did they receive treatment for anything at Animal Rescue before coming to you? Can you please post up photos of these little guys and their fresh droppings?

Good luck with them,

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Hi Sunnybubble, welcome to Pigeon-Talk and thanks for tying to help these little guys out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dipped the bottom of crop in a cup of warm water (not hot) while putting my fingers in the cup to massage the crop.
(progressive over 3 days)
(exact, hand feeding formula)
,(continuing with what our team leader was doing at 30cc per feeding)
(cream of wheat consistency)
(very warm water when mixed but cooled to warm by feed time), how often?(8AM, 1PM, 6PM)
(Yes, I know how to tube feed, but have never had to crop medicate)
(no, just plain Heintz ACV)
(I am part of the dwindling song bird/duck team of Fresno Wildlife rescue & rehabilitation)
yes, give me a few minutes for photos)


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

This is what I have so far. The bird on the right is the main crop in question. And the darker gray on the left is the liquidy stinky poop.
Oh, and the last feeding was 5 hours ago and it was 3cc.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Food does seem to be moving through them, which is good. I think what has happened is that both of these guys have developed what is called "sour crop" you may be familiar with this term. The "cream of wheat" consistency would be too thick to move quickly from the crop and thicker food tends to leave some back, and this will turn sour, hence making other food coming in later sour as well.

Ideally what should happen now is about 10cc of warm water, with 2 drops of the ACV you have, should be tubed into their crop and then the crop contents should be suctioned out using a slightly modified silicone crop tube. This "flushing" should be done 2-3 times, until the crop contents being drawn back out a getting to look clearish. Then 8cc of Pedialyte with 2 drops of the ACV, should be given, and then they should be left alone to see if this will get their crops moving again. If you have Medistatin (Nystatin) on hand this would also be added to the Pedialyte and no food at all, until the crop emptied a few times of this fluid mix.

When the crop in moving well again, formula can resume for a short period of time and then only at the consistency of slightly thicker than a melted milkshake, the formula should readily flow. I say short period of time, as at 4 weeks of age these guys should be well on their way to being weaned and feeding on their own. We can help with this in a little while, first we need to fix the current issue.

As an alternative, you can try tubing the 10cc of warm Pedialyte with ACV, gently massaging the crop area to loosen things, and see if the crop empties. do not feed anything until the crop empties the warm Pedialyte a few times.

You can make your own Pedilyte by adding to 1 quart of boiled water 2 1/4 level tablespoons of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of salt and 1/8 teaspoon baking soda (bicarbonate of soda). This will equal the same calorie count as Pedialyte. And if you want it to be even a little closer, you could add 1/4 teaspoon of a salt substitute "No Salt" which is potassium chloride, just check the label and make sure it say potassium chloride as the ingredient.

Here is a link for how a modded silicone tube should look and some discussion on another bird with a stalled crop:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/fe...injured-but-may-be-sick-44906.html#post477198

You did not reply as to whether you have any meds on hand and what they are. Can you open their mouth and both have a sniff and report what it smells like and whether the throat/mouth area is pink and clear with no cheesy looking growths.

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

I do not have any meds on hand. Only people meds of various antibiotics. Checked for sour crop...no smell or oder other than formula. The color of mouth is very light pink with NO sores. They are very active. They are inside and on a heating pad under the cage. The house is kept at 70 degrees.
Oh, I forgot to add loose cream of wheat....sorry.
Should I do this now since it is dark now? Or should I try this in the AM?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, let's try 8cc of warm Pedialyte with 2 drops of the ACV, gently massage the crop for a few moments and check the crop in a few hours. Change all paper in the cage to monitor what's new coming out the back end and please list the human antibiotics you have, as most of them, if appropriate, would be fine to use, if compounded up right for them (this may not be necessary, bit good to know ahead of time what is available). Can you get some Nystatin from any associates or the rescue center?

Pull all food and water from their cage for now.

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Fluconazole, macrobid, amoxicillin, doxycycline, trimethoprim, cefaclor, keflex.
We are all volunteers and there is NO budget for certain birds. The resources go into birds of prey and protected birds according to the Fish & Game guidelines......so, it is up to each individual volunteer to care for "their" birds unless it is a bird of prey, then you get donated money to help your bird....Big sigh...So, I save and help as many as i possibly can on my own.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

What strength is the Fluconazole, is it 100mg per pill?

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

By the way, THANK YOU!!! for your reply & all of your help.
I will be going off line for about 1 1/2 hours. But I will be following your instruction while I am offline. I will get back on and reply to the progress of the birds.
It will appear I am online, but I will not be.


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Dobato said:


> What strength is the Fluconazole, is it 100mg per pill?
> 
> Karyn


150mg tablet. So it is easily crushed.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sunnybubble, the Fluconazole is an anti-fungal medicine, but unlike the Nystatin which is not absorbed by the body, Fluconazole is systemic and is absorbed. The Fluconazole would be a much more potent medicine for dealing with any yeast/candida issues than cause sour crop, and out of all the systemic anti-fungals, it is probably the most well tolerated and gentlest on a bird's system of the ones used for birds.

I think before we reach for the meds, try the warm 8cc of Pedialyte with ACV and see if we can get the crop moving and we can take it from there, if this does not work. The other meds can be used in birds as well.. is the Trimethoprim you have Trimethoprim/Sulfa or just plain Trimethoprim?

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sunnybubble,


Hi Karyn,



Just-at-a-glance...I am thinking the formula has been too thick form the get go.


Too thick of formula can and reliably will make various problems, and or occasion fatality if those problems are not corrected.



Formula needs to be 'Soupy', at least as 'thin' as Melted Ice Cream on a Hot Day. AND, the youngsters need to be allowed to drink between meals as well.


For now, no more food/formula untill these Crops clear up.


Do you know how to guide Pigeons of this age to drink?


I suspect a GI Batcerial trouble with the 'stinky poop' one, and, if it was me, I would -


With hold food/formula form both youngsters for the time being.

Supply definite, supplimental warmth.

Make up some 'ACV-Water' ( with the 'Heinz' if that is al you have, ) to the tune of four tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon of Water, or, one Tablespoon to a Quart, and, have this be their drinking Water for the next week or so.

When offering it for them to drink, have it be 'tepid' ( close to or about the same as one's own Body Temperature ).


No drinking, untill Crops have gone down at least enough for allowing liquids to be added, of course.


Have them drink volentarily with your guidence.

ACV-Water only avilable with superviusion and your guidence.


If you do not know how to do this, ( how to guide them to drink volentarily ) I can explain how.


I would have them both on Enroflaxyn for a week, if it was me...and, I would have Metronidazole within reach also.


BUT...no Antibiotic or Antitrichmonal/Anaerobal meds till these Crops are empty.


If you have or can get Nystatin or Medistatin, you could adminster some of it into the Crop, or, prepare a dose as a simple Solution which the youngster would drink volentarily.


Can you post some fresh poop images?


And, can you get Medistatin quickly?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Update. Sorry, I am currently under the weather and did not have a good evening. 
I did what you had suggested and the crop has emptied more, but not completely. They have still been pooing the same amount, just with added water, so I know there is food passing still.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Good, things are starting to move though. Give them 10cc of warmed Pedialyte with 2 drops of ACV, gently massage the crop for a few moments and let that empty again, no food or water in their cage yet. Let me know in 3-4 hours how that went. Hope you feel better soon as well.

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

The hand formula (which I have NOT been feeding them for now) "is" like a runny shake. Because I know that the formula is the source of hydration as well as food. 
I do NOT have access to any of the meds described. Only the ones I have listed above.
I have hand raised from hatch to release 17 different types of birds so far with the amount of birds totaling 347. Surprisingly only 1 pigeon. And he was extremely easy and is my buddy...outside. So experience with pigeons I do not have.
I will take more poo photos in a few minutes. But both birds are still full of energy. But I don't know how to get a pigeon to drink unless its like a chicken...Dip the beak and splash the water, etc.
Thanks!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sunnybubble, you mentioned you could tube-feed, so what I am telling you to do is to give them 10cc of warmed Pedialyte, with 2 drops of ACV, by feeding tube directly into their crops, then lightly massage for a few moments. I will post instructions later on getting them to wean to seeds and drinking on their own. Are you OK with tubing the Pedialyte? The meds you have are fine.

Also you for got to answer my question om whether the Trimethoprim you have is plain Trimethoprim or Trimethoprim/Sulfa, plus if you could let me know what the strength of the Keflex you have is and if you could get a body weight for them in grams, this would be good.

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Karyn,
I gave more electrolyte mixture and they are pooing water with extremely little amounts of dark brown/dark green poo. Crop is still the same on the larger bird and the small dark bird is emptying almost completely.
I set my baby monitor camera in the room aimed at them and they are picking the seeds and drinking the water......Because they won't do anything when I am in the room. I count the 15 various seeds that I put in and they are still there. So they have interest in eating but need to still learn. I have taken the seed out now, I was just curious if the larger bird was eating seed therefore he was somewhat full when I fed him.
Thank you for the well wishes (for me).
I will update in a few more hours.
Oh, it's Sulfa. And I will weigh them too.
Keflex 250mg


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

I have done the tube feeding of the pedilyte.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sunnybubble, please, as mentioned, remove all seeds and water for right now, them having seeds right now in their crop will only slow things down trying to get things fixed for them, no food or water dishes, for the next few days you need to control all that goes into them by feeding tube.

So it is Trimethoprim/Sulfa right?... I think this is what you mean when you say "it's sulfa", also what strength is this med?

With the crop on the larger bird, is it emptying at all, not at all, or is it just very slow. Does it feel like it is full with contents, old formula/water, or a combination of air and contents, does it slosh around if you jiggle the crop?

Can you separate them right next to one another in different cages, I need to see what is coming out the back end of the big one with 100% certainly it's his, this just for a short period of time to see a few of the droppings he is producing.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sunnybubble,


The idea is to both with-hold food, and remove access to food, untill one is satisfied that the Crop is returning to a normal function. While providing adequate Hydration if possible, if the Crop has room to do it and will pass Liquids well enough for it to be practical.


Why the Crop is having problems, is another question, and, usually, needs to be investigated in order for one do be able to do the specific things necessary, to ammend the condition.


Usually, these kinds of problems occur because of things an inexperienced Care Giver is doing, in how they prepare and feed the formula, and or on h ow they are managing the youngsters.

But, also, some youngsters, when found, are already beginning to have problems, which of course the care giver inherits and has to deal with at some point.


Personally, I suspect a Bacterial inflamation issue effecting their lower Crop or Proventriculus, which may also be added to by details of the prior formula preperations, and or the youngsters having got chilled at some popint prior to this being noticed.


How have you been preparing the formula?


Are the youngsters unambiguous little 'Furnaces' making abundant Body Heat of their own?



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Sunnybubble,
> 
> 
> The idea is to both with-hold food, and remove access to food, untill one is satisfied that the Crop is returning to a normal function. While providing adequate Hydration if possible, if the Crop has room to do it and will pass Liquids well enough for it to be practical.
> ...


Hi Phil,
Let's see, an inexperienced caregiver, hmmm, since I have only had the birds for 3 days(including today) and they were in the care of the SPCA for 4 days prior where they had NO heating pad and just before that they spent a little over 24 hours on the ground because someone cut the entire shopping complex of trees down, I think I am doing quite well. Also the fact that I searched and searched to find a great place like Back Yard Chickens, but the pigeon site, I think I care for these birds more than you realize. If you are meaning inexperienced with pigeons, then yes I would agree with you on that only.
It may also be my poor choice in words when I mentioned Cream of Wheat. As to which everyone prepares theirs differently. As, I amended in 2 previous posts the hand feeding formula is like a liquidy shake.
And yes, they have an abundance of heat. I also have a heating pad under only one corner of their cage which I checked and just that corner is warm and the others are cool so they can get away from the heat source if needed.
So, with all that being said, both crops are emptied completely, no air, no sour crop, no food. Just the 10cc of warmed Pedialyte with 2 drops of ACV as Dobato had advised.
Thank You for your well wishes, but you need not be accusatory when you do not have all the facts nor asked the questions that would have gotten you the answer you were seeking. I appreciate your advise, but please before you tell someone they are a bad caregiver and start accusing them of things that have not happened while in their care, think of the birds and how you can help not hinder the care of them from your knowledgeable vantage point. 
Thank You.


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Sunnybubble said:


> Karyn,
> 
> I set my baby monitor camera in the room aimed at them and they are picking the seeds and drinking the water......Because they won't do anything when I am in the room. I count the 15 various seeds that I put in and they are still there. So they have interest in eating but need to still learn. I have taken the seed out now, I was just curious if the larger bird was eating seed therefore he was somewhat full when I fed him.


If you were talking about this quote, I should have mentioned to all that this was another tactic I tried before I contacted anyone on here. I was trying to trouble shoot before I had asked for help. Sorry I forgot to mention that....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sunnybubble, 



I have never once seen any instance of anyone preparing 'Cream of Wheat', where it was not extremely thick, and, also virtually Water-repellent and 'Glue Like', and or hard to dissolve even in hot Soapy Water with a Sponge, scrubbing on it, once cooled.


You want me to understand, now, that you only mean the opposite of what you say, okay...but, that is too complicated for me.

I ask you about how you are preparing and feeding the formula, you refuse to say.

I make a general and true observation concerning Crop troubles and inexperienced Care Givers, and you take a general observation which is proved true here on a frequent basis, claim I am making 'accusations' about YOU, and insult me for it.


Just because the Crops appear to be passing now, does not mean the troubles are over, or that their causes are not going to continue being repeated or occasioned...or will not be3 re-occuring with future Babys or Youngsters you may get.

I was trying to both describe general overviews of what does happen generally with inexperienced Care Givers, as well as to find out details of what has happened, specifically.

This has not gone well.


I am not a Mind Reader and I can not take anything for granted as far as anyone else's experience, or praxis, or understanding, or to presume details about what they have done.


I have to ask, and to some degree, explain.


So, this is not working here with you...okay.


Good luck...


Best wishes, 



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Phil,
I was merely trying to defend myself. And for the 4th time now I have been trying to tell you a liquidy shake consistency. I also said it was my poor choice of words on saying cream of wheat as to everyone makes it differently. So people you know prepare it much differently than the way I prepare it. I am not insulting you I am feeling defensive because you are accusing me of being negligent by your post. I think you have a lot to offer in the care of pigeons. I have never run into this problem before so I came here asking for advise. I thought you had read my replies to the other posters questions, as to that would have answered yours as well. Sorry. I have spent my last 3 days off of work caring for my children and pigeons health. If I wasn't on the computer I was observing, hydrating, changing cages cleaning, weighing, oh yeah throwing up due to illness. I am trying my best to throw out all the info. I can in the posts, but only to have someone think I don't care and am negligent...for that I am saddened. Next time, well, sorry to disappointment you.
Thanks for the advise, but I will go it alone so I will not upset you more.
Take Care Phil from Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I never in any way hinted you had been negligent or that you did not care.


You are not/have not been reading things correctly.


I am sure others here will be glad to help you.



This is not working for me.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sunnybubble, I am glad to hear both of their crops have now gone down, this is good news. I know you are trying your best and I think Phil mentioned that many times caregivers inherit youngsters with developing problems and it seems the cause of the back and forth was more miscommunication, than anything.

I want you to give them each another 10cc of Pedialyte, but this time instead of 2 drops of ACV, I want you to add 3 drops of ACV and tube this, then again a gentle/light massage of this around their crops for a few moments, hold their head and lift and extend neck up and slightly back with one hand and use the other hand to massage with. I was hoping to get them started on a few days of meds to clear up any possible bacterial issues involved, but I still need to be clear on one of the meds, I asked this earlier



> So it is Trimethoprim/Sulfa right?... I think this is what you mean when you say "it's sulfa", also what strength is this med?


I would like to use the TMS (Trimethoprim/Sulfa), if this is what you have, because of the young age of these birds and it is well tolerated and gentle on their systems, need a weight for each of them as well, so clarification on the med and weights for both of them, OK. Don't panic about them not having any food for a little while now, as long as they are well hydrated they can go for a number of days without food with no problems, we will start food again shortly, just wanted you not to worry.

Can you describe how you make their food in detail, do you use warm tap water and make a batch for a few days, then store it in the refrigerator between use? How do you warm the food up? Do you continue to adjust for thickness? Do you add anything elase to the mix, other than Kaytee and water?

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Can you describe how you make their food in detail, do you use warm tap water and make a batch for a few days, then store it in the refrigerator between use? How do you warm the food up? Do you continue to adjust for thickness? Do you add anything elase to the mix, other than Kaytee and water?
> 
> Karyn


Trimethoprim 100mg tablets by Teva

Every time I make their food I grab a clean plastic kid sized cup and a clear plastic spoon. I heat up the tap water to the hottest it will go and put in 2 level scoops of Exact hand feeding formula labeled for all baby birds. I drizzle in the tap water until the desired consistency is reached. (like a runny milk shake). I wait a few seconds due to the nature of the formula because it thickens more upon sitting. And I adjust the thickness once again if needed.
Every time I feed them I have always made a fresh batch. Due to the nature of the product, it does not last. I do not add anything else to the mix because it is a complete formula. And it might take away from the balanced formulation of the product and compromise the different nutrients. I keep the food warm in my avent baby bottle warmer, that I had gotten for my last child. I keep it on the warm setting. And as always my clean pinky finger goes in the formula to the bottom and swirls around to check the temperature. 

I will weigh the birds in a little bit and update.
Thanks again!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Trimethoprim 100mg tablets by Teva


Sorry SB, but I need to be 100% clear on this, earlier you said "it's sulfa" are you now saying you looked and the pills are not a combo of Trimethoprim and Sulfa, but Trimethoprim alone? Do you have another med that is Sulfa based?

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

As these birds progress, it seems that one is about a week older than the other. The older one does not peep as much anymore but the other peeps its head off when I come in the room. When I recieved them they were fully feathered and had trace amounts (on their head only) of the fuzzy yellow baby feathers.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Check my last question on meds and did you give them the 10cc of Pedialyte and 3 drops of ACV today yet?

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Sorry SB, but I need to be 100% clear on this, earlier you said "it's sulfa" are you now saying you looked and the pills are not a combo of Trimethoprim and Sulfa, but Trimethoprim alone? Do you have another med that is Sulfa based?
> 
> Karyn


I was told by the Dr. that prescribed them, that they were the sulfa based med. because the Macrobid was not working and he needed the sulfa based med to get the job done.... So, I am going off of what the doctor told me......I hope that helps.


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

I do have Sulfamethoxazole 800mg tablets as well.
I found that bottle this AM

I gave them the original pedilyte mixture this AM.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

SB, OK we're in business, did you see my last question, Pedialyte today, and how are their crops today? Do you have any 1cc dosing syringes there?

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Dobato said:


> SB, OK we're in business, did you see my last question, Pedialyte today, and how are their crops today? Do you have any 1cc dosing syringes there?
> 
> Karyn


Yes I have 1ccs. And Their crops were flat and empty this AM. I felt nothing, the bottom was flat as well. So I gave them the 10ccs of pedilyte,ACV mixture at 7AM.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, good, I am working a post with a bunch of instructions for you, I need a weight for them ASAP if possible.

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Okay, I will be right back. I will get the scale and weigh them.


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

282 grams for the darker one
350 grams for the other


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The first thing I am going to do is to get you to mix up some meds for them. Take one of the 800mg Sulfamethoxazole pills you have and cut one evenly in half, keep half out and put the other half away. Next, take one of the 100mg Trimethoprim pills you have and cut it into four even pieces, keep three pieces and put the other 1/4 away. Now place the 1/2 of the Sulfamethoxazole pill and the 3/4 of the Trimethoprim pill into a shot-glass and crush them together into as fine a powder as you can, I use the rounded end of a small kitchen knife to do this. When done, add 2cc of very warm water and stir into solution, next to this add 8cc of pancake syrup and stir well for a minute. You now have a 4.75% (47.5mg/mL) Trimethoprim/Sulfa suspension to dose them with. OK, weights aren't too bad, especially the larger one. So, to 5mL of Pedialyte (with 1 drop of ACV) for each bird, I want you to add for the little one, .25cc of the TMS suspension and for the larger one, .30cc of the TMS suspension and tube this into their crop. Wait 1 hour and then do their first feeding as instructed below. 

With their food, for now, and for any birds in the future, I want you never to use hot tap water to make up their food, run the cold for minute and then use fresh cold water, heated up to make their formula. I am glad mentioned you have had a baby, as you may have noticed on baby formula instructions they instruct you to make it by bringing water to a boil for a full 2 minutes, then to cool down before using. There is a reason that they don't tell you to just run the hot water tap and mix it up, because on some occasions there are pathogens found in hot water tanks that can make a baby ill (birds as well), so they always instruct to boil. We want to do the same for our birds, baby or otherwise, when we mix their formula, boil, cool a bit and then use. I know lots of people don't do this, but this is the right, and safe way to do things.

So, I want you to boil at least a least a quart of water, let it cool to quite hot still, and then measure off an exact quart (32oz). To this I want you to add 2 teaspoons of the ACV you have and use this to make their formula. Measure off 4oz of this water and cover the rest and put in the refrigerator. To this 4oz of very hot water I want you to add 3 tablespoons of Kaytee, use a cooking tablespoon, like you are baking, scoop in to the Kaytee (don't compact it), level with the back of a knife and add to the water, cover and set to the side for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes, I want you to add 1 teaspoon of honey to this and stir in and it should be just the right thickness to feed them right now, we will thicken it a up bit more in a few days. Test for correct temperature and tube feed them each 10cc of this. In two hours, I want you to check their crop and see if this has moved from the crop. In a few more hours, once you see that what is coming out their back end is processed Kaytee, you can feed them again, this time 15cc each, and later gain you can feed them 15cc each once more. Since you have used boiled water, plus used ACV to mix the Kaytee, there will be no issues to keep using the same batch through the day to feed them, pour off what you need, warm up and put the rest back in the refrigerator, at the last feeding for the day you can now throw what's left and make fresh in the morning again.

Will wait 5 minutes in case you have any questions and the running out until later tonight. With the meds you will give every 12 hours for 5 days. Also I want to get them starting to wean to seeds ASAP, I will post instructions later.

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Okay, sounds good. I will do this now. I will wait until tonight after last feeding to post and update.
Thank You!
Just FYI, We only have instant hot water heaters. No tanks or large units. We switched 5 years ago.
But, I know that the water in the lines still have risk.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

When you are heating the formula, double check it for correct thickness (or thinness ) it may just get a tad thicker sitting, so you may need to adjust it with just a touch of water.

When giving the meds, do it as instructed earlier, in 5cc of Pedialyte with 1 drop of ACV, and do this about an hour before feeding. Keep med refrigerated and shake/stil well before drawing a dose.

Still no food or water in their cage for the time being.


Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Okay, they tolerated it well. They were peeping their heads off this AM. Probably because they were starving.....How many days should I give them meds? The mixture separates. So I mix it up and heat it and adjust it. 
They are picking at their poo looking for stuff to eat, so I am constantly changing their cage paper.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

SB, you will keep them on the meds a full 5 days, lots of peeping is a really good sign. Still no seeds or water for one more day in their cage, just meds/Pedialyte today and feeding them 15cc of formula at a time and allowing their crop to empty and feeding again. Do you happen to have any pellets like this around (budgie size); http://www.amazon.com/ZuPreem-Natural-Diet-Bird-Parakeet/dp/B0002AQL7Y , if so, you can place out a teaspoon full for them to peck at, but no seeds, as pellets breakdown fast in the crop and will not back them up the way seeds might.

I want you to monitor their weights, as the big one at 350g is at a weight were we don't really want to "fatten" him up with too much food, as it will make learning to fly a little more problematic for him, for a wild feral we want to keep him around the the 350-370 gram mark for now, but I would like to get the little one over the 300+ gram mark, so no worries there.

If things go the same today as yesterday, then tomorrow you can give them a seed dish and water dish back in their cage, no seeds larger than safflower seeds (so no corn, peas or large unhulled wheat), sprinkle some around for them to peck at, give them a total of 1 tablespoon full each in the dish, and if all is well again the next day you can fill their dish, but still small seeds only for the next week. Check their crop before feeding to see how they are making out with self-feeding.

These links describe how to get them nuzzling and eating seeds, also when you spread some seeds around for them, you can make like you are hunting and pecking with them by crooking your forefinger and tapping at the seeds along with them. Some catch on pretty quick, with others it may take a bit of time, so be patient with them. Once they are eating seeds, you can continue to supplement with formula, but give just one late night feeding of 20cc and check their crop when doing this to see that they are going to roost/bed with some seeds in their crop.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11 (information on how to get him to start to self water)
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507810&postcount=2feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=523350&postcount=16 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=508006&postcount=3 feeding seeds


Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Great, sounds good. I tried the links on the bottom of your last post, it said on all of them...no page found....Oh and another question for you, I have non medicated chick starter. Will that do? It is very small and crumbly.
I have everything from ducks to chickens and House Sparrows to hummingbirds. So, I do have an array of food.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

SB, I am not sure what happened with the links, I copied them from a bookmarked page, but I redid them and they seem to be working now. The links show hand feeding seeds to get them weaned - so they get used the the feel of seeds in their mouth and swallowing. 

You could spread around some non-medicated chick starter around for them to peck at, instead of the pellets if you don't have any, since they are a processed food and should break down much the way a pellet would, start pecking with them with your finger to show them how it's done, just a teaspoon or so for now though, to give them something to peck at.

So again, hold of with the seeds until Thursday, we want to make sure we don't rush things and then just set ourselves back. Let us know how it goes and whether or not you have any questions or are experiencing any challenges.

Karyn


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Dobato said:


> SB, I am not sure what happened with the links, I copied them from a bookmarked page, but I redid them and they seem to be working now.


Karyn, nothing to do with the topic, just info about links...
Ive noticed in several VB forums this happens if you copy bookmarked page links as the text it displays. 
The board truncates the text of the link and misses out some of the info. (see all the .... in the text of the links above)
If you open your original bookmarked page links in a new tab or page first, then copy the full address bar info from that tab or page and paste that as the link it usually corrects it. A bit fiddly but it works 
(It still truncates the text, but leaves the full link)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Quazar said:


> Karyn, nothing to do with the topic, just info about links...
> Ive noticed in several VB forums this happens if you copy bookmarked page links as the text it displays.
> The board truncates the text of the link and misses out some of the info. (see all the .... in the text of the links above)
> If you open your original bookmarked page links in a new tab or page first, then copy the full address bar info from that tab or page and paste that as the link it usually corrects it. A bit fiddly but it works
> (It still truncates the text, but leaves the full link)


Quazar, thanks for the explanation of what the deal is with the links with C&P in VB forums. I will do what you suggested in the future.

Karyn


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## Sunnybubble (Dec 18, 2010)

Update. Sorry, I have been working a lot and come home on my breaks to manage the baby pigeons. By the time I get home I am beat and my human kids really need me.
The pigeons are doing great. They are eating seed as of today (I didnt have to do much, they were little piggys and jumped on it as soon as I put it down) and still on their meds and formula too. The older pigeon doesn't want to be fed as much now, but I keep checking for a full crop and giving him meds and some hand feeding formula. 
Thank you for all your help. This has been a great experience. And I appreciate all the knowledge and experience that I have gained from you Dobato (Karyn). I hope you have a wonderful Christmas or Holiday, whichever you celebrate! I will update you on the progress in a few days. You have been awesome! You too pdpbison, no matter what our (or my) misunderstandings were.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

SB, no worries, I usually a take lack of posts, when a a bird (in your case birds ) is responding well and improving, as a good sign, as it most times means things are well, anxiety about the health issue has decreased significantly and life in general happens.

Glad to hear this is indeed the case here, that all is well and they are doing great, just keep doing what you are doing. With regards to the larger one, when they reach the weight yours has and are self-feeding - weaning to seeds - I usually limit any supplemental formula feedings to once a day. This would be a late night feeding, where they would then wake with an empty crop (from the formula being digested overnight), as an empty crop will encourage them to self-feed, but this way they will still get some support from the formula supplementation. I do this for a bit until I am satisfied they really have the hang of getting enough food each day into themselves, this could last another 7-10 days (I also monitor their weight during this time, as they will lose a bit during this transition, but I want to make sure they are not loosing too much). With the little one, because s/he has some weight to gain still, you can feed a few times a day and continue to work on the self-feeding as well.

Merry Christmas to you as well and please keep us updated when time allows, are they flying as yet, and what are your longer term plans for them, by the way?

Karyn


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