# Feather Pulling



## upcd

How often should Fantails have thier tails trimmed or pulled before a show? Some breeders do it 2-3xs before show time. So they have beautiful clean tails. If you pull now will they be grown back in time for Jan. 2006?


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## Blueracer757

I believe 45 days is the time frame for new feathers to replace themselves. So you can probably wait.


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## re lee

Plulling tails is up to the person. Some pull tails when the young birds are moulted down to 4 and 3 flights. Then you have to watch as the new tail comes in. You should never pull more then the 1 time. a year. It takes a while to growin in and when the weather changes to cooler weather the tail may not open as well as it should. A adult tail which is larger then the baby tail is the quest in pulling. To get a better tail out In time for the shows.


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## upcd

*Who Knew*

There is so much to do before a show. I sometimes feel sorry for show birds. They need to be kept seperated from the other birds. So they don't get dirty or broken feathers. What do you bath white birds with?


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## re lee

Working your birds thru the season gets them show ready. You can use dish soap to bath the birds about 3 days befor the show. And let them dry good. In a warm place if its cold. Show season is still down the road. And young birds are still developing with some showing that they will be show type. After the full moult it seem to bring out the rest. If you trimmed tail on the old birds. You can pull there tails say sept and the will grow back goo. NO need On stack birds. Just pull the cut feathers when the moult starts. BUt if you raise Indian fantails they Are judged way different then reg fans. They do not need laceing at all. And se veral do not pull tails. on them.On indians you wannt to proectect the muff from getting frayed or really dirty. So shavings on the floor helps there.


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## upcd

*Lacing*

Yes, Indain Fantails must have thier tail feathers laced. Thanks, for reminding about muffs. Saw dust is good idea. Is a wire floor better? I am have a hard time telling if one of my young fantails is lopsided or if this yougster is being lazy with his tail.


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## re lee

I do not think you lace indian fans tails. They are judged different then american fans. They just need to have a decent tail not funneled or wry or twisted . Wire floors on muffs I think would fray the muffs.


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## upcd

*Thank you*

You are right about wire cages and muffs. Will use wood with sawdust on top. If this youngster doesn't pull it together with his tail we will work on another bird. Guess it time to powder or dust my birds. Are you showing any bird?


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## re lee

While you look at your young biird hopefulls. For show prospects. You notice the stand outs. Work with them And work the ones that show they might develop into a decent bird. Most often after the first moult the birds come together. Better balance of the tail the better feather length Just be watchful. Study the standard. NO bird carries the 100 points. BUT birds getting closer to the standard Do well in the shows. And a bird that is for stock may never be showable. But breed good show type birds. Indians is the larger fantail breed. With muffs crest and tail. You have to work on these areas in breeding. Show season is still down the road abit. And theres time to find the birds that will go to the show. I would like to show. I will see., I did raise some that is going to go be show type. And some useful birds also. A person will not raise a loft full of show type birds each year. But if put together right a few will come out Maybe just 1 And usefull birds will come out to. Then of course the give aways also. I am cutting back to be able to keep my birds. And its hard right now deciding which to phase out. I have given birds away twrice now. trying to keep the top birds. And get down to about 6 pair and a few hold overs. For next year. Showing is learning. You show you learn. You try harder the next year. THATS great about the steps in building a good loft of birds. And you meet some great pigeon people. That enjoy the same hobby. So just going to the show is a plus. Showing tells you how you are going and win or lose you still learn. So no matter you win. in knowledge and friend ships That you make at the shows and thru the years. Then you enjoy the birds. So alot of fine points to raiseing pigeons comes from the over all enjoyment of several things . Never get mad at a lose. be happy that some one won. And learn ask others look at the different birds see where you are going with yours. And soon you do better and better at the shows. Then some one asks you to help them get a start. Or make suggestions on how they can improve there program. And most of all a new friend is made.


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## upcd

*Shows*

Oh how I love shows. The competition and all your friends around. I get such a rush. I don't even have to show one of my birds I just get excited. I love to see if I can Pick the winner. As for my birds, I will wait and see. But I still need to go thru them for 2006. Don't you just love a show?


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## upcd

*Cleanig the loft*

I have concert floors. What is the porper way to clean a loft? I scape pooh and place in a bucket and it goes in the garden. I then hose it out with a pressurer nozzle. Then let it dry. Then spray lysol or use 1 to 3 bleach and water mixure. Use to use saw dust, but when the fly it just goes in the edges. In the nest boxes I use pine needle or grass. Any other thoughts would be helpful?


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## re lee

I would use pine shavings on the floor Do away with any perches. So the birds fly less. That way the muffs stay cleaner and les damage. There tail do not get messed up do to flying and catch the flights in the tail. In the breeding loft. I would if open breeding just agin have nest hloes large enought for the birds. Fans about 30x20 by 18 or 20 high per hole. And change the flooring. about 1 time a month. You can bathe the birds about 2 to 3 days befor the show. Use some dish washing detergent. Just a little. And put the birds where they can dry well. This BATH IS A HAND DONE BATH.


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## upcd

*pine shaving*

are you talking about spinkling it on the floor or using 2 to 3 inches packed down. Cleaning it once a month. Shovel it out and then hose it out and dis infect it.


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## re lee

Im talking about 2 inches on the floor. Then you clean out 1 time a month. Birds stay a little cleaner. And the loft looks ok too.


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## upcd

*ok*

I put 2 inches of pine shavings. It looks nice and smells great. So far its staying put. During non moulting I use surlfa drugs. I have heard not to use surlfa during the moult. What should be used in its place? Axmoxi ot TC or Kflex. To avoid Cocci. or Salmon.? What is your advice? I use ACV in thier water. But What if you have carriers you don't know about? Can they be cured or must they live the rest of thier lifes as carriers? And then Do You remove the from your breeding flock period. And get them homes as pets only.


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## re lee

In most cases cocicidiosic Will not thrive in warm weather. Lofts well light and warm dry conditions. You will not see it much at all. Birds that have had salamenla will carry it. You will have a bird come down with it some times. If you do treatments do you do not over terat the birds. I just treat befor breeding season. THen If I have a bird which is not very often. I treat just the bird. Clean unsoiled grain. And water. And you have less problems. If you have a bird that comes down with sickness often I would not keep the bird. As it will spread sickness. But a bird that just showed up down. You treat . I still say Never over med the birds. Use meds as a preventive then isolated cases. Have you removed your perches. To reduce flying of your indian fans.


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## upcd

*Removed lower perches*

The Indain Fantails don't seem to fly over 2 to 3 feet to thier boxes. I left higher perches for rollers and westies. Should I keep the fans in the breeding coop or allow into the larger flight cage? When out there they just walk around and bath. The fans haven't gone on the higher perches yet. We are warm to hot out here. So I was wondering if you feed birds greens will thier dropping show a color change to green. Or has bird got something? Thank you, re lee


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## re lee

Greens can change the dropping and if they eat plenty yes. Is the dropping loss. Stop the greens. As a rule I have never fed greens to my birds All the years I have raised pigeons. Yes my homers in the past would sometimes hit the ground for a little. But I have allways fed feed. And gave grit minerals vits, And such BUT never greens. Now some people like to and some do not. Are your crowded or do they have good room. Have you been having health problems. Or have you giving meds often. Have the birds been wormed. Greens is a good way for picking up worms. depends on type of greens. Your birds that fly will scatter the shavings some depends on how many in the loft. It will go to the corners you can respread it. Breeds are best kept in same type per loft divider and such. Gives better management of the different types. How many birds do you have and what is the loft size.


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## upcd

*Greens*

Sometime wondering jew grows under the fence and they like to eat it.
I have 2 breeding coops 4 x 10 ft. each. 12 pairs in each. Total 24 pairs x 2 =48 birds.
They have a daytime flight that is 20 x 30 ft. 8 prs. Indains Fantails, 8 prs. westies, 8 prs. rollers. 
2 young bird cages 3 x4 ft. 8 Individaul cages 2 x 3 ft. for mating or illness.
They are fed 17% popcorn mix.Also pigeon grit Which is many types of grit. they get a callicum block.


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## upcd

*Wormed*

At begin of breeding season. Do you worm more than once a year?


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## re lee

Is the flight on or off the ground. What is its floor


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## upcd

*Floor*

in fllight is 95% concert and 5% dirt.


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## re lee

The dirt can harbor desease I would say you might at least put about a 2 inche sand base there. and rake it out periodicly. And it will also help the birds stay cleaner.


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## upcd

*ok*

Monday, I'll go get some sand to cover the dirt area. What can you put in the bath water so they don't get bugs. I powder and spray them but they bath. And the bugs come back. It is like a weekly habit.


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## re lee

Borax in the bath water. But you can dip them In malithion Dip pull the bath water First. use a five gal, bucket. About 3 gall of warm water. NOT hot just warm. Use 1 teaspoon to a gal. so 3 teaspoons. Strir you will notice the water will get just a little milky look to it. Then hold the bird open the wing up and together. Lower the bird into the dip. At an angle holdin it by the wings and chest head area. Lower it to just to where ther the head is almost at the dip. Then pullit back out. slow to allow dripping. And start with another bird. This works very well on a good kill of mites lice feather flies ECT. I started this after a brother inlaw In the south. Louisiana. Was told by the local flyers there that they use this method. ITS much faster then dusting You can dip almost say 10 birds befor you can dust just 1. AND it gets a good kill . And no real health problems to the birds. AND with a good kill and seems like eggs are killed to. You do not have to dip very often at all. I tried it. And now its been about 8 months AM and just getting where I need to dip agin. Let your birds dry good Takes a while Because the warm water lets the featheres soak in the dip better. And the birds seem to look shineyer after they dry. Then hold your bathes for about a week after you dip. . DO not let the birds head under the dip


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## upcd

*Bathing*

Guess they need to lay off the bathing for a short time to make sure all those bugs are dead. So I'll deal with the bugs on monday and on tesuday deal with sanding the coop. For a quick fix I'll use saw dust til I get the sand.


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## upcd

*Monday*

Got a 5 gallon bucket. Put 3 gallons of water and 3 tsp of dip. Mixed until milky. Then caught in each pigeion and dip thier body in lukewarm mixture. And those nasty flies went running for the head. Where they got squashed. So after i did everybody it looked like I had a copp of wet hen. Hope they enjoyed thier warm bath. I know the bugs didn't. HA HA


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## re lee

You will notice tommrow that the birds shine a little better. And you should get a good hard kill on the parasites. mites lice feather flys.


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## upcd

*Dipped*

at 10:00am and saw a Fly crawl across a bird at 6:00pm. Do I wait or redip?


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## re lee

Might wait. Did you have alot of feather flies on the birds. Most often the dip will get a full kill. Now if some got on the birds after. I would still wait To see how it goes


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## upcd

*Greetings*

Relee, One bird had 6 flies and some had 1 or 2. Some birds none at all. Everybody else has be preening. What kind of sand should I get? Sand for sand bags or home depot sand. Or should I use larger pebbles.


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## TerriB

re lee said:


> ...dip them In malithion Dip ...ITS much faster then dusting...AND it gets a good kill...


I'd been using a pyrethrin spray but it rolled off because of their powder and wasn't stopping the lice/mites. This is faster, more effective, and the birds seem to be less bothered by being dipped than being dusted or sprayed. The dip saturates the feathers and really gets to the bugs. To stop mites from hiding in their ears, I use a cotton swab to dab the dip on their ears before I dipped them. Thanks!


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## upcd

*Thank you*

Terri, I'll use q- tips next dip.that a good idea. How are your birds? Are they breeding or being seperated? What tpye of ground cover do you use? Re lee, Silly me you ask if the flightis on the ground or up, well it is on the ground.It goes from the ground 5-6ft up.


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## re lee

I would use the sand . As you can rake it And keep it looking ceaner then the gravel. Do you have a concreete company near. If you do not have a pickup. You could use 5 gall, buckets to transport it. Concrete sand there would work. PLUS be cheaper. Its a little more coarse then masonary sand. Or if you want you could get some ready mix cement. And concreet the dirt area. Just keep the birds out of the aivery A day. More cost and work. But then you do not have to do more then clean. Hows the birds look now that you dipped them. Most all the bugs should be dead. And eggs to I would wait until the first of next week to let them get a bath. By then If any new hatched lice mites etc. Would be killed if the eggs did not all die .


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## upcd

*Husband*

is going to give me a bag of concert. Need to finsh second breeding loft so I can put 1/2 the birds in each loft while I am doing concert and 24 hours for dry time. Oh ya, have to move my young bird cages out of my way so I can get to the dirt and cover it. Looks like I have a busy up coming week.


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## TerriB

Mine are all pets, two pair of Old German Owls and one mixed pair - King pigeon with a homer hen. Fantails are gorgeous - wish I had more room to add birds! We only have space for these six, so all eggs are swapped for dummies and the pairs get to stay together. Since none of the eggs are hatched out, I really enjoy reading about that aspect on this forum.

Most of the flight pen is deep pea gravel - wonderfully easy to hose clean! We left a patch of grass for them to play in, but this may not be a good idea. I've heard that birds can pick up worms from slugs or snails (of which we have lots!). The birds seem to spend as much time puttering around the gravel as they do the grass. Since I plant pots of greens for them, they may not care if I cover the grass with sand. The gravel does get very hot in the summer sun, while the grass doesn't. I imagine sand might also get hot (based on my time at the beach  ), but it may be worth the trade off. It's really great to have such sharing, experienced people as re lee!


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## upcd

*Greetings*

TerriB, I was going to do sand. But I like concert. Because I can hose it and disinfect it. Sometime I like to go barefoot in the loft so I like it really clean. That why sometimes I find it hard to believe with pine shaving you don't have to clean that often. It kind of freaks me out. When I worked for Vets.,Zoos,Pets, and Shelters. They clean everyday. So the idea of going longer than day is a trip. It hard not to let my birds bath everyday. You know sometimes I wish I could do six birds. To me that would be a cake walk. I really enjoy a large flock.


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## TerriB

Concrete is great for clean up and low allergens. We tried wood shavings inside the coop, but found out that Walter and I are allergic to wood shavings - he got really congested.


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## upcd

*to bad*

that is to bad because it smells great. But the peat rocks seem to work for you. I had to bath my birds today it was 111. To hot! Had to be humane and I'll deal with the bugs again in a week.


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## upcd

*Finshed*

I finshed the 2nd breeding loft. I had to reduce the wire size so flying insect could not enter the loft. Don' t West Nile. 1st layer was chain link, 2nd layer is patio cover. Also Put pull down shading to protect them from the sun and draft. Today is the Grand Opening! The birds get to go inside and look around.Next will be Open House so birds can claim territory. And after all the fun. Seperation of the sexes and manadatory abstence for the winter.

Now I am moving the young birds cages so I can take care of the dirt issue. I need to cover 6 inches wide by 30 ft. long. If I am smart I dig and make a double open drain so when I hose the loft clean all the water will flow out to the garden and water the plants. Is anyone doing any repairs ro building?


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## upcd

*No more Dirt*

Well, I finally did it All the dirts covered up. Any other goodies I need to know about? Is it finally time to end the breeding season? Re lee Are you still breeding? How about you Bird mom?


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## re lee

No I have seperated my pairs. And have bigan pulling trimmed tail feathers so they grow in well. And have pulled tail feathers on the older young birds So they can moult in the adult tail. And have been putting the young cock birds on the cock side. Any birds raised now would not be old enough for show. And would be late for breeding. Purposes. next year.


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## upcd

*Seperation*

and tail pulling after I take the kids to school in the morning. Any one with young can finsh than dumby eggs. After weaning they get seperated. Anything esle I need to know about the moult/ Some of my birds are moulting right now. My Indain Fantails are starting to have tails because they were trimed for breeding season. Tails are looking good.


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## Doves1111

re lee said:


> No I have seperated my pairs. And have bigan pulling trimmed tail feathers so they grow in well. And have pulled tail feathers on the older young birds So they can moult in the adult tail. And have been putting the young cock birds on the cock side. Any birds raised now would not be old enough for show. And would be late for breeding. Purposes. next year.


Re lee,
Do you pull *all * the tail feathers out in the young birds? I didn't know I was suppose to do this. It makes a lot of sense though. I'm planning on showing for the first time the end of November. Will this be enough time for the tails to grow back? I did start pulling the trimmed feathers on my breeders...
Thanks,
Dawn


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## re lee

When young birds are down to the 4th flight left you can pull tails. All the tail feathers. This is not a have too. But it helps them moult in there adult tail which is a little larger then a baby tail. And Reduces the amount of pins that makes the bird sometimes not show ready. Yes they would get there new tail in by nov. You should watch as they get the tail coming in. To straighten any feathers. And such. Pulling tails late when the weather is changeing. Causes the tail not to moult in right. So a little warm weather is best . As like the first part of the moult. When the weathere gets colder. The feathers come in. But stay in a long pin stage. Also remember the birds do not need to be flying much during this time. And for the birds you show. You do not want them to fly much at all. To ruin the tail. Thats part of the reason not to have perches for fantails.


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## Doves1111

Re lee,
Thank you for all your information...I have a lot to learn about raising Fantails for show! This thread has been so interesting and helpful.

Dawn


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## upcd

*Greetings*

Doves1111, gald you stopped over. How many fans do you have and what colors? Who are you thinking about showing? Re lee, Didn't get to seperate or pull tails. 2 of my rollers got tied up together in fishing line. One had it around his neck the other around both feet. So I was busy trying to keep one from killing the other. They were laying on the ground flapping. I got my nail scirrors and trimmed the line around the neck first, then went to do the others feet.Both seem to be ok. Will recheck in the morning


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## Doves1111

upcd said:


> Doves1111, gald you stopped over. How many fans do you have and what colors? Who are you thinking about showing? Re lee, Didn't get to seperate or pull tails. 2 of my rollers got tied up together in fishing line. One had it around his neck the other around both feet. So I was busy trying to keep one from killing the other. They were laying on the ground flapping. I got my nail scirrors and trimmed the line around the neck first, then went to do the others feet.Both seem to be ok. Will recheck in the morning


I only have 2 breeding pair (Opal x Lavender...Spread Ash Red Opal x Khaki) and their 6 young. There are 3 possible's....1 Black and 2 Grizzles... I have a nice BM that's put together nice...but only has a few white feathers in it's tail.

I'm so glad you got to your Rollers on time...I was 4 when I got my first pigeon (a barn pigeon). She got caught in fishing line that some bird must have brought up onto the bird feeder...well, it wrapped around her neck...my Mom and Brother ran out to save her...but it was too late. I still remember that like it was yesterday...  

Dawn


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## upcd

*Great!*

Your birds sound really nice. Wish you the best in winning. Good colors. Blessed find, catching those 2 before someone died. I thank the Lord for that one. Sorry you could not catch the the little barn pigeon. Bet that was horrible. What are you doing to ready your birds for show?


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## Doves1111

Well...for starters I pulled the tails of 2 today. They look pretty silly and hate me now. But I'm sure they'll get over it...  

I'm glad your rollers are doing fine, that was a close call.

Dawn


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## upcd

*Hello*

I put the fantaials in a cage and then I will pull tail feathers. Hosed out loft today. What have you been doing?


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## re lee

And remember to put the birds in the show or walking coop to prp them for the shows. Helps relax them to the enviroment. And in about 6 to 8 weeks the new tails will be in full And ready to show. remember to watch tails As they grow in for any problems Good time also to dip or dust so new feathers will not be worked on by any lice or mites.


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## upcd

*Dipping and training*

Sounds like a fun deal.


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## Doves1111

Do you have just the Fantails to prepare for showing? Or are you planning on showing other breeds/species as well?
Hopefully I will be showing 10 Ringneck Doves...5 Fantails...and 5 Pheasant Pigeons. AND maybe a few Diamond Doves.

Dawn


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## upcd

*possiblily*

Rollers, maybe westies. Really didn't think of showing anything but indain fantails. Sold most of the rollers and traded the westies for a cockateil. It hard for me to focus on to many birds at a Grand National.


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## upcd

*No more dirt*

and all chain link covered with smaller material. Get coop winterize. Putting up draw shades and plastic over certain areas. All birds are in heavy moult.


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## upcd

*Feathers*

Everywhere accept on the birds. They don't look as good as that previuos picture. They look like pin custion.


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## Skyeking

upcd said:


> and all chain link covered with smaller material. Get coop winterize. Putting up draw shades and plastic over certain areas. All birds are in heavy moult.



That is one hunk of handsome pigeon you got there,upcd!


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## Maggie-NC

UPCD - that bird is so gorgeous. maggie


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## PapaPigeon

*DIamond DOves*

I've never actually seen Diamond DOves shown, are they held, or do judges just look at them in the cages? They are tiny, and I've wondered this for a while.


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## upcd

*Thank you*

Trees and lady T. So does anybody have feathers everywhere? How are your birds doing?


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## TAWhatley

Such incredibly beautiful birds! I'm sure glad I don't know where you live ROFL!

Terry


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## TerriB

updc,

What gorgeous birds! I guess most of the rollers I've seen are non-show types. He's a real hunk!


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## upcd

*What does it mean?*

ROFL. Terry? The West of England Tumbler is the one with feathers on its feet and a baldhead marking in creambar. The Indain is a lavarder hen. thanks Terri and Terry.


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## TAWhatley

upcd said:


> ROFL. Terry? The West of England Tumbler is the one with feathers on its feet and a baldhead marking in creambar. The Indain is a lavarder hen. thanks Terri and Terry.


ROFL=Rolling On Floor Laughing (at my pitiful attempt at humor). Truly gorgeous birds! I have a self black WOE that is just gorgeous (Darth Vader), but boy, is he ever an aggressive bird to others.

Terry


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## Skyeking

Hi upcd,

That is one huggable looking bird! what a cutie..

Regarding the feathers, the amount of feather shedding has started to decrease, but with 48 birds it takes time, as each one is on their "own" molt schedule.


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## upcd

*Treesa*

I think it is going to be a while for me at 70 birds. Terry, Hear you about the black WOE. I have a big one and he thinks he is all that and a bag of chip. If you know what I mean.


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## Lin Hansen

Debbie,

Your birds are just gorgeous! Thanks for sharing your pictures.

Linda


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## upcd

*Thank you*

Linda, I guess i had to start dipping again. Saw some pigeon flies. Have a friend coming over to pick up 2 WOEs 1 red and 1 cream bar baldhead. Have another person wanting Indain fans, But not ready to sell.


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## upcd

*Feathers*

Are coming in gorgious. Birds are looking great. Even I am impressed. The only problem is now the bad weather is coming. Hope I can keep them heallthy.


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## re lee

If your in CA, The weather should not be so bad. Your birds should do good. Its the time of year for off season maint. worm , pmv vaccine , cocsidi and parathiphoid treatment. then vitimans and oyster shell tabs for hens. This gets them ready for the next year breeding season. which is coming close. for some.


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## upcd

*Protien*

During Breeding I used 17%, Non breeding 11%, Can I go to 8% or is that to low? They are on there 2nd of treatment for Cocci. and Parathyiriod.


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## re lee

I would not go lower then you have now. the birds still need a balance. Just do not get them fat in the off season. When do you put birds together. Around here they do most at the end of november. BUT the fantails. I wait until last week of feb first week of march.


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## racer57

*bath*



upcd said:


> There is so much to do before a show. I sometimes feel sorry for show birds. They need to be kept seperated from the other birds. So they don't get dirty or broken feathers. What do you bath white birds with?


i always put a couple heaping table spoons of twenty mule team borax in the water, and for white birds or any bird with any amount of white on it you put just a small squirt of mrs stewarts blueing in the water, this really makes the bird stand out.


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## upcd

*Where*

Would I get this products. Boy, my white birds need some cleaning.


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## birdboy12

upcd said:


> Yes, Indain Fantails must have thier tail feathers laced. Thanks, for reminding about muffs. Saw dust is good idea. Is a wire floor better? I am have a hard time telling if one of my young fantails is lopsided or if this yougster is being lazy with his tail.


I learned a trick at the show I just came back from.If you break a tail feather it should stand in show position.If that doesnt work then the bird could still be to young to hold its tail right.If it keeps doing that then odds are it wont change.I had a powder blue hen that I really needed that did that.But I got a new hen so I cant wait to take her to the Nationals and see how she does.


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## upcd

*Can't wait*

Til you get your bird. Let me know what happens.


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