# Broken Scapula



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone,


Any tips on stabalizing a broken Scapula? ( Wing hangs way 'down' as-a-whole...)


Ideally, where the Pigeon does not jamb a Foot into the tape or wrapping and fall over, soon as you set them down?


This is driving me nuts...


Anyway...what's your experience with this?




Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The only way to even find a broken scapula is with an X-ray seeing as how it's literally in the back and you can't really feel it. When a wing is hanging real low, I usually run the masking tape literally from the other wing over the back, down the side of the bad wing in the position that I want it to be in and then underneath it and up the inside. The line of the tape should be centered over all of the wing bones.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> The only way to even find a broken scapula is with an X-ray seeing as how it's literally in the back and you can't really feel it. When a wing is hanging real low,
> 
> *I usually run the masking tape literally from the other wing over the back, down the side of the bad wing in the position that I want it to be in and then underneath it and up the inside.*
> 
> Pidgey


How about using Vet Wrap (or something similar) to wrap around the body of the bird & then use *masking tape* to secure the end?

Using *masking tape* to wrap around a bird, especially one with an injured wing, is concerning to me.

The main reason being, re-injuring the wing when the time comes to remove it. There is also the possibility of irritating or further injuring the wing if more than one attempt is needed to get it wrapped properly.
*Masking tape* has to be pulled off with some amount of force, unlike Vet Wrap, or the like, that is easily removed.

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Because I've never had trouble getting the masking tape off with the way I do it--pull the feathers loose from the tape one feather at a time rather than trying to pull the tape away from the feathers and bird. Conversely, I've never had much success with keeping the vet wrap on, goodness knows I've tried. From my experience, it would only work with an extremely sedate bird. Yes, I've used the duckpolice method and made the same pretty picture a bunch of times only to have the bird get out of it, get tangled in it or other detrimental effects. I just got sick and tired of the failure rate, that's all. And, judging by the posts of others on here with similar experiences, so have a bunch of other folks.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I use micropore. That is easy to apply, stays in place and comes off without damaging the feathers.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Because I've never had trouble getting the masking tape off with the way I do it--pull the feathers loose from the tape one feather at a time rather than trying to pull the tape away from the feathers and bird. Conversely, I've never had much success with keeping the vet wrap on, goodness knows I've tried. From my experience, it would only work with an extremely sedate bird. Yes, I've used the duckpolice method and made the same pretty picture a bunch of times only to have the bird get out of it, get tangled in it or other detrimental effects. I just got sick and tired of the failure rate, that's all. And, judging by the posts of others on here with similar experiences, so have a bunch of other folks.
> 
> Pidgey


The thing with masking tape is that not every one that takes the suggestion to use it, understands how to remove it without causing pain and feather damage. Keeping that in mind, the method for removal should be posted simultaneously.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> I use *micropore*. That is easy to apply, stays in place and comes off without damaging the feathers.
> 
> Cynthia


And I'm sure it would be less stressful on the bird as well.

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.3m.com/product/information/Micropore-Surgical-Tape.html


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone,



If it's not the Scapula, then it is whatever runs parallel to the Pigeon's Body, under the skin, where the Wing is affixed...in the 'Armpit' area, so to speak...up 'high'.


There is a Bone there, and it is broken, with swelling and discoloration.


I have tried various 'wraps' to stabalize and support the effected Wing, with the intention that this would also of course align and stabalize the broken Bone...but every time, the wrap itself is fine, but, the erstwhile standing Bird jambs a Foot into the wrap, and promptly falls over sideways.


Now, if their 'jambing' the Foot into it did not include such pushing with the Foot, as ruins the intent or success of the wrap for stabalizing and aligning things, I'd say, just let 'em do it, and let 'em lay on their side...


But, reliably, though they can stand and walk just fine, they lift that Leg, jamb the Foot into the wrap, and PUSH for all they are worth, and this spoils the align and support, throwing everything off...as well a that they fall over sideways then.


I had two such injuries as of a few days ago...with having put both in the same cage.


One started doing the Foot 'Jamb'...then after a couple days, the other one started..!


Yesterday evening, I got in a third Pigeon with this injury.


Oye...


Maybe I can hobble their Legs like for treating 'Splay Leg' and see if that stops them from lifting up a Leg to jamb it into the wrap...


I have re-done the two, re-done the Wraps a dozen times already, and this i driving me nuts! Lol...


I've had these before, and never had solved it.




Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> http://www.3m.com/product/information/Micropore-Surgical-Tape.html


Appreciate you posting the link to information about the micropore tape, Charis. 

And there's even a color choice of white or tan.  

Cindy


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi Phil,
It sounds to me that either the humerus is broken or the bird suffered a shoulder dislocation. The humerus is one of the most important bones for flying, as it transfers the power from the pectoral muscles into flight. It is also part of the respiratory system. You can try to strap the affected wing (or both wings) to the birds body, but the outcome is doubtful due to the forces involved. The only other alternative is surgery (e.g. shuttle pin). As Pidgey has said, an x-ray is the only way to find the broken bone and to determine the extent of injury and displacement respectively. 

All the best for your birds,

rook.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm familiar with the difficulty you are having, Phil. Some of the birds are just almost impossible to keep in their wraps. Perhaps placing a piece of sock or stocking over the wrap might help keep things where they belong. Your hobbling idea may well do the trick also. Another idea would be to suspend the bird from a sling type of device.










Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Thus the tape installed flat so that there's nothing to hang on.

Incidentally, I don't usually bother describing how to take masking tape off because there physically just isn't any other way to do it. It becomes quite obvious from the first attempt at removal that there's one (1) and only one (1) way it's going to work. Period. 

With a tape that's fairly sticky, you'd just tow the bird around if you tried to pull it from the bird as the bird's just too light to resist the force. It's not anything like pulling a bandaid off of a human with the stickiness holding onto hairs--it's more like pulling the entire body around by the wrist. So... simply put: you're either going to pull the feathers away from the tape individually, or... you're going to leave the tape on the bird because it ain't coming off otherwise. "We find these truths to be self-evident... "

Now, you can try to wrestle that language around any way you want in order to make the use of masking tape for this purpose sound like some kind of chamber of horrors deal, but the basic laws of physics are that it's a hypothetical argument with no factual basis: an unfounded fear.

So... given the almost inevitable debate that virtually always arises when I bring it up, why do I bother? Because when you've got a bird that needs to stay trussed up for weeks at a time in order to have any chance of healing such a break, you can trust a good masking tape job to stay in place. Period. The goal isn't to tick folks off on the board, or to push not going to a vet, or to "do it on the cheap"... the goal is results, plain and simple.

Sure, there are types of injuries for which the other means (micropore tape; vet wrap) are going to work. And there are birds on which they will work (milder dispositions) even more often. But the kind that Phil's describing here is about as bad as it gets, which is probably a comminuted humerus. Most of the time, a vet is going to amputate those in the long run because they rarely heal. Even if you heal them with that, they're very unlikely to fly again. That could be, folks, why I suggested going with a heavier-duty method. And if I seem like I'm getting a bit testy... well, yes, I am.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Now, you can try to wrestle that language around any way you want in order to make the use of masking tape for this purpose sound like some kind of chamber of horrors deal


Have posts been deleted from this thread? Because this response doesn't make any sense to me in the context of what I have been reading....


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

No, there haven't been any posts deleted from the thread, and I am going to try and nip this whole deal in the bud before it goes any further.

I, personally, think that masking tape works well and is a good choice for wrapping difficult breaks and/or difficult birds. I also sometimes use paper tape that is really pretty sticky and also waterproof. Dr. Lee, and he's a vet, uses the really heavy duty, elasticized, and very, very sticky tape for wraps/splints. Compared to the tape that Dr. Lee uses, masking tape or paper tape is a breeze to get off, but you do have to be careful regardless of the type of tape. Suffice it to say that Dr. Lee's wraps/splints usually stay on with no problem.

My point(s) being that while concern for the well being of the bird and its feathers is always warranted, there are times when the "tools" used (ie. type of tape) need to be appropriate ones for attaining the desired end result .. that being a properly healed break without constantly having to redo the wrap/splint.

Let's all just settle down here and see if we can really help Phil figure out how to solve the problems he is facing with these birds.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We keep both vet wrap and micropore tape on hand all the time. I have to say that the tape usually irritates the daylights out of me because it doesn't stay on. Vet wrap is a lot better but still doesn't stay on like I would like it to. I have either wrapped a pigeon or had the vet do it and the "houdini" pigeon would be out of it before the end of the day.

What we now do is wrap with the vet wrap, then use either adhesive or masking tape on top of that to help hold the bandage on. 

Another thing about the micropore tape is that it would sometimes stick to the fine leg feathers almost as bad as adhesive or masking tape and it was really tedious removing it from those feathers. Now, we use gauze over the splint and then either adhesive or masking tape. Works pretty good too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Come to think of it... it was my vet that taught me to use the masking tape. Crap, I think I'll check AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION...

...yep--page 429 advises using "a self-adherent bandage or adhesive tape that does not harm feathers (masking tape or Durapore tape)" for humerus fractures. It also mentions that such fractures often require orthopedic repair.

I'm in a rotten mood and I'm sorry. The world's just getting a little rough right now and it's bound to get a lot worse. I don't know if it's ever going to get better again.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rook said:


> Hi Phil,
> It sounds to me that either the humerus is broken or the bird suffered a shoulder dislocation. The humerus is one of the most important bones for flying, as it transfers the power from the pectoral muscles into flight. It is also part of the respiratory system. You can try to strap the affected wing (or both wings) to the birds body, but the outcome is doubtful due to the forces involved. The only other alternative is surgery (e.g. shuttle pin). As Pidgey has said, an x-ray is the only way to find the broken bone and to determine the extent of injury and displacement respectively.
> 
> All the best for your birds,
> ...





Hi rook,



Thank you...


I will examine them ( have three like this now...one in a padded 'lay-down' Box ) again shortly, but so far, it has seemed that the Bone in question is long, is in the same axis as their Body, is in-effect, located in and back from their arm-pit, and, is broken mid-length.


Five or six weeks ago, I had one like this, who did not do the Foot-Jambing, and she resumed flying after about a month in free-roam, subsequent to being done with her convelesent-time in the Cage.


The only Bone I can discover in the Anatomy illutrations, co-responding to these injurys, is the Scapula.


But, I will examine them again and report back later today.



Thanks!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> I'm familiar with the difficulty you are having, Phil. Some of the birds are just almost impossible to keep in their wraps. Perhaps placing a piece of sock or stocking over the wrap might help keep things where they belong. Your hobbling idea may well do the trick also. Another idea would be to suspend the bird from a sling type of device.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hi Terry,



Oye...


Lol...


Yeahhh...once they get into the Foot-Jambing thing, it just makes it all such a hassle..!


Our Margaret in So Cal suggeted a 'Shoe', for the offending Foot...so it would not slip in there to 'jamb' things...


I'll try that and see...


Little mostly-white 'LV' was a TOTAL Foot-Jamber when I had her convelesing...I finally just gave up...let her do it, and just propper her up!

I bet I re-did her Wing-Wrap fifty times for Pete' sake.


But the jambing ruins the tension and hang of the wrap...so...I need a method for preventing it..!



Love!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Thus the tape installed flat so that there's nothing to hang on.
> 
> Incidentally, I don't usually bother describing how to take masking tape off because there physically just isn't any other way to do it. It becomes quite obvious from the first attempt at removal that there's one (1) and only one (1) way it's going to work. Period.
> 
> ...




Hi Pidgey,




Understood...

Much appreciated also..!



As for me, I got used to the narrow 'Mircropore' Tape, and have found ways of using it so I feel satisfied.


Usually, it holds well for the duration...and if not, I re-do.


'Vet-Wrap' I poitively hate...and have had consistantly bad experiences with how it melts-glues into itelf, and is about impossible to remove...as well as glueing into the Feathers something terrible.


Masking Tape I have not tried, but I will try it...though I'd need to get some, to do so.


The 'Humerous' would be palpable as being 'in' the Wing I believe...though the end of it is more-or-less articulating 'in' the Bird's Body.



Where, the Bone in question here, is not 'in' the Wing, but, rather, in the Arm-Pit...running horizontally.



More soon...



Thanks!!



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> We keep both vet wrap and micropore tape on hand all the time. I have to say that the tape usually irritates the daylights out of me because it doesn't stay on. Vet wrap is a lot better but still doesn't stay on like I would like it to. I have either wrapped a pigeon or had the vet do it and the "houdini" pigeon would be out of it before the end of the day.
> 
> What we now do is wrap with the vet wrap, then use either adhesive or masking tape on top of that to help hold the bandage on.
> 
> Another thing about the micropore tape is that it would sometimes stick to the fine leg feathers almost as bad as adhesive or masking tape and it was really tedious removing it from those feathers. Now, we use gauze over the splint and then either adhesive or masking tape. Works pretty good too.




Hi Maggie,



Well...no one's been wiggling out of their wraps...just jambing a Foot into it and falling over sideways...


Lol...


It is funny, but alo exhasperating!!!

spend fifteen minutes doing a nice 'wrap', set them down..they are tanding perfectly...two-seconds later, they lift-a-leg, jamb it up in there for all their worth, and are laying on their side, or on their back, looking 'sheepish'...


Oye!




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...


Re-did anew the Wing-Body-Wrap for the two...making cardboard 'Shoes' for the offending Foot...so-far, so-good.



Both have serious swelling of the Humerus close to the Body end, which had been less pronounced before...and both have welling in the end-joint area next to their Body...and both have sweling of some length of the Scapula...which had been more pronounced before....but neither Scapula felt broken today.


Neither Humerus seemed broken in two, though either could be cracked.


They are feeling better today, and it was difficult getting them to abide the wrap-fussings.


I hope these 'Shoes' do the trick..!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I'm in a rotten mood and I'm sorry. The world's just getting a little rough right now and it's bound to get a lot worse. I don't know if it's ever going to get better again.


I am sorry about that Pidgey, I hope things don't turn out to be as grim as you fear.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi Phil,

I hope everything works out fine for your poor birds. I have to apologise, but I think you are right in assuming the scapula might be fractured after having read your description now several times. Although it is difficult to palpate the scapula in an injured bird I have to admit. Lets hope that the shoulder joint is intact (that there is no joint dislocation nor ruptured ligaments) and that the fracture heals without producing to much new bone or other complications. You are doing a fantastic job! Good luck!

rook.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rook said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I hope everything works out fine for your poor birds. I have to apologise, but I think you are right in assuming the scapula might be fractured after having read your description now several times. Although it is difficult to palpate the scapula in an injured bird I have to admit. Lets hope that the shoulder joint is intact (that there is no joint dislocation nor ruptured ligaments) and that the fracture heals without producing to much new bone or other complications. You are doing a fantastic job! Good luck!
> 
> rook.



Hi rook,


Thank you..!


I was wondering if I'd confused Scapula with Humerus, and in further palpating sessions last night, I see it would not be hard to do!


Possibly I was confusing them a little, or not pulling the Wing away from the Body far enough, to definitely distinguish the two.



Uually I 'feel' all the long Bones in an injured Wing, and feel the big joint, and visually inspect the underide also.




It's puzzling to me that a Scapula could even be injured at all.


But...it does seem to happen sometimes.


The 'Shoe' on-the-Foot is working well.



Scapulas of these two...were initially very swollen and on one, felt 'crunchy' or felt like it was broken...while both Pigeon's Humerus originally did not feel swollen...then after a few days, Humeruses felt swollen near the Body-joint, as did the Body-joint, and Sapulas less swollen.


One of thee was possibly Car hit...end of lower Beak broken...bad swelling of Jaw hinge area...strained or weak Leg on the effeted Wing side, Canker alo...for three days, could not open his Beak or I dared not, oweing to how the swollen Jaw-hinge was resisting, even if he was not reisting otherwise...so, had him 'sipping' nutritiou liquids with meds in them, tedious, but worked pretty good...he was into doing it.

Did tube-feeds once the Jaw welling went down...then after a few day of that, he started pecking...so...


Had a third one also who passed away yesterday...pretty sure he'd been hit hard by a Car too.

Similar injury, but worse...blood in Feathers...also open Beak breathing on-going from the start and he was not making his own warmth...anyway, two days in here, at least he was comfortable, and alert and interested in his surrounds. Made a little padded 'Lay-Down' Trough, which worked very nicely...on a heating pad...also covering him with a little towel but for his head. He liked that, nice-and-warm...looking out, he was very willing to accept meds and to drink.

Probably had some internal injuries...good weight, but was also sick, Canker probably, 'yellow' watery urates...


He layed so perfectly in the padded trough-box, I did not wrap anything.



Anyway, the little 'Shoe' seems to work well for preventing a Wing-wrapped Pigeon from jambing a Foot into the Wing...and falling over sideways.



How elegant...


Rambley,


Phil
l v


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi Phil,

I'm sorry to hear that the third pigeon passed away. However, there is often not a lot one can do about internal injuries... In particular birds with a broken scapula are likely to have suffered more external and internal injuries than we can see, like broken uncinate processes, keel bones, spinal injuries or injuries of internal organs. In particular when there is an extensive soft tissue bruising, there is a high risk of subsequent kidney problems (crush kidney). Yellow watery urates could be also caused by bile due to liver or gallbladder injury. Anyway, the good thing is, that the bird had a warm and sheltered place to rest and didn't die alone on a cold and wet road. Thank you for taking care of those birds in distress!

Regards,

rook.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi rook,



Thanks...


Oh yeahhhh...some of these have been hit 'hard' for sure...real hard.


It amazes me that they can recover well as often as they do.


I just pray these 'Wings' will be alright...or at least good-enough for indoor flying anyway.


Broken Wing Bones, with or without Scapulas too...have always been very stressful for me...the Vets routinely botch them, I botch them, and I dunno, maybe with having done so many by now, the botch-factor might be diminishing.


How can anyone learn to do these things without doing them?


So...you do them...and hope that you can get better with acrued experience.


Just having a decent mental-model OF the Bones and their disposition variously is not easy for me.




Well, Margaret in So Cal's "Shoe" idea is genius...works great...easy to do, and fine with the Pigeon, too.


I'll post some pics later tonight.


Why the heck did I never think of that???


Lol...

Oh man, without it...these Foot-Jambed-in-Wing things just drive you nuts.



Sorry about all the typo-missing-letters in prior posts, my Keyboard is shot, missing a dozen or so 'keys' and is not easy to type on anymore...I thin I got the letter and do not notie it did not appear in the text...will change keyboard soon, but have to open the case to do so...Lap-Top...


Well...the two Shoe-wearin' Wing-wrap ones seem to be doing well...they've been good buddies from the start, same Cage...broken Beak-end one eats and pecks alright...in spite of it...( thank goodness! )


Re-did shoes and wraps yesterday...on both.


I guess another week then I'll pull the wraps and see what we have.


Went to Office Max and bought a bunch of little Clip-Boards, half-sheet size...for 'Bed Charts'...trying to keep seven or eight Patient-History-regimen-progress-weight-meds-etc details in my head all the time is a little 'iffy' sometimes...


Finally got a nice Gramme Scale recently...too...




Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news update on the two, Phil. Sounds like you and Margaret came up with a winner with the "booties"! What kind of gram scale did you get? It's always helpful to our members to know what to go looking for if they need one.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry,




I will post some images later...showing the Scale, also...

It's an old one...


The Sling you posted the image of in-use, is so elegant..!


Slings are definitely good if there's leg-troubles.


The broken-Beak-tip Wing-wrap one did have an inuered-weak Leg...same side as the Wing-related inury.


BUT, though barely able to stand, he'd jamb the Leg and Foot into the wrap with the strength of Hercules..!



If his Leg had been any worse...I'd have tried for a 'Lay down Trough'...and if that was not agreeable...then...we'd do "Sling-Bird"...



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Good job Phil, I thought to send you those for future use, just in case 










and one more










Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,



Thank you...


Nice images...very welcome.


Have you any images showing also the Humerus, situated among the other Bones?



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

One like this?? Tell me , if this one will do ..









Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,




Ohhhhhh...yes...excellent..!


Thank you!


I'll print these out and have them laminated and hang them on the wall for ready-reference.



Dem Bones...dem Bones...oh dem Bones...


Phil
l v


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