# bird in bad state



## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi all....it's been a while but here I am asking for advice.

Against my better judgement I have let one of my youngsters stay with my main flock. I ummed and arred about keeping it in my large aviary with the other injured or disabled birds...it was perfectly healthy apart from the fact that it was born with one eye. Needless to say I am now kicking myself. It has been free flying with the flock for a week or so, unfortunately I found it three days ago on the pigeon shed floor, I think it has hit a tree or wall, it has very little movement in one leg..an injured head, a huge lump on it's back which seems to be the result of an impact injury to it's under carriage. It is eating and drinking well...but does have a green pulpy pooh which smells (poss due to shock?) I have started it on baytril to combat any infection. I know it is difficult to say via post...but how do you think things are looking for it..(poppet) any advice please x Jayne


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

sorry to hear about your bird ,although it wasnt the best idea to let it free fly with only one eye this leaves it wide open to a predatory attack as well as collissions as you have found.
its eating and drinking so that a plus, just keep an eye on the droppings for a day or two, a bird can take a good 3 weeks to recover from a knock.

its flying days are over as you should know now and he should be confined to the aviary,good luck with his recovery.


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

beausmammy said:


> Hi all....it's been a while but here I am asking for advice.
> 
> .


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jayne, could you post some clear pics of the bird's injuries? A collision is possible, especially if it was being chased by a hawk or other predator, or it could even have been caught by something which approached from its blind side.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

You have got him on antibiotic which is good...and he is eating and drinking and pooping which is good. 

However, he/she may have some significant orthopedic injury, so should really see a vet ASAP.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Jayne, At least he's eating and drinking, that sounds very good . If he's had a collision, it would be good to get him on an anti-inflammatory if you can. Some carers I know use cortisol too, in case of spinal injury/swelling . I think the proper med to use is called `metacam' but in a pinch, some people use (very ) diluted aspirin.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...if to use Asprin...the portion of the Asprin Tablet for the Pigeon ( if an adult Pigeon ) would be no larger than the head of a Seamstress Straight Pin or Silk Pin.


Does sound like this Bird was ill prior to it's injury/mis-hap.

Images of the Bird? images showing their injuries? Images of some fresh poops?


You have Trees in the Aviary?


Sounds nice!


Injury on the Back...could it be from being pecked by some of the other Birds? Is it plucked?





Phil
Lv


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Phil,

Have you ever been able to nail down the exact dose for aspirin? I mean what strength aspirin pill would you you use, and how much is safe? I've heard that up to a whole pill can be used for severe injury, and have personally used up to 1/6 th of a 250mg pill for a horrific, terminal injury. The pigeon didn't die from the aspirin dose, but did pass away the next day from what looked like a broken neck and back. I'm glad it wasn't in as much pain as may have been.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I do not have that information.

Pidgey who posts on here often, may have it...and, it is from him that I recall the 'Head of a Pin' amount.

Otherwise...hmmmmm...

I have never used Asprin for a Bird myself.

I have used Ceyanne in formula ( made to be not too hot but say medium hot if in a culinary context ), tubed in to the Crop, which is an anti-inflammitory/anti-Bacterial.


I do not have any reference data regarding Asprin tolerance or dosage for Avian...if it is in the Avian Pharmacopia, that is locked in my non-working other Computer and I can not access it.


If their tolerance say, were about as ours generaly is, one could do the math and arrive at a safe figure.


As you mention, Asprin Tablets may have differing concentrations/doseage...so...


I would think about 1/50th of a usual people Tablet would be fine...

Average Pigeon weighs about 1/300th of an average person...average person can take three tablets ( or quite a few more than three even ) with impunity, so...somewhere around in there, anyway.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Have you ever been able to nail down the exact dose for aspirin? I mean what strength aspirin pill would you you use, and how much is safe? I've heard that up to a whole pill can be used for severe injury, and have personally used up to 1/6 th of a 250mg pill for a horrific, terminal injury. The pigeon didn't die from the aspirin dose, but did pass away the next day from what looked like a broken neck and back. I'm glad it wasn't in as much pain as may have been.


The dosing for Aspirin in my formulary book for birds is 10mg/kg q24h, so 1mg per 100g of body weight, once a day. The 1/6 pill (about 41mg) would be too high a dose.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Personally, I wouldn't give a blood-thinning analgesic like aspirin to a bird that's got something resembling a hematoma after some kind of unknown trauma due to the risk of hemorrhage. That said, weighing out a piece of aspirin in these low doses is pretty tough--it really is easier to do it by way of making flakes that resemble the heads of pins. I have a scale that can go down to 2 milligrams resolution and it's even tough doing it with that. I remember once a post where someone used aspirin as a euth drug so I'm pretty careful with the stuff.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good reminder Pidgey on not using Blood Thinners in instances of Haematoma, Concussion, or for heavy and noticible contusions which suggest heavy blunt trauma of a kind which could suggest possible internal injuries.


Pigeons and Doves seem to enjoy and tolerate Ethyl Alcohol to about the same mL/K as an average person or older child.

One can do the math, or, for a Pigeon or Dove whom one knows to be adequately hydrated already, just offer a Tea Cup having in it a lightish ( ideally, good quality ) Bourbon or Scotch or Whisky and Water or similar ( say half a Shot/Ounce to six ounces of Water), and, let them sip that for a while, then remove it and replace with plain Water...and offer it again in six or eight hours...or just use one's judgement as for the individual Bird's drinking rate, and proportion it accordingly and leave it available for them.

This can be very nice for those who have had heavy blunt trauma or who are upset and nervous or in pain from whatever injury sort.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> The dosing for Aspirin in my formulary book for birds is 10mg/kg q24h, so 1mg per 100g of body weight, once a day. The 1/6 pill (about 41mg) would be too high a dose.
> 
> Karyn


Thanks Karyn, thats really great to know. I'll definitely remember your recommendation with this since every other one you've provided me has worked out very well.

PS. Do you think the dosage of aspirin would possibly vary depending on the severity of pain and injury (eg horrific wounds versus anti inflamatory use?). One long term member who I respect here told me that its possible to give a whole aspirin to a severely wounded pigeon. I wasn't game to do that, but like i said I've used 1/6 of a pill and it seemed to be ok. That bird was clearly dying though, and I didn't have access to a vet to euthanase it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Pigeons and Doves seem to enjoy and tolerate Ethyl Alcohol to about the same mL/K as an average person or older child.
> 
> One can do the math, or, for a Pigeon or Dove whom one knows to be adequately hydrated already, just offer a Tea Cup having in it a lightish ( ideally, good quality ) Bourbon or Scotch or Whisky and Water or similar ( say half a Shot/Ounce to six ounces of Water), and, let them sip that for a while, then remove it and replace with plain Water...and offer it again in six or eight hours...or just use one's judgement as for the individual Bird's drinking rate, and proportion it accordingly and leave it available for them.
> 
> This can be very nice for those who have had heavy blunt trauma or who are upset and nervous or in pain from whatever injury sort.


Thanks for this info Phil.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks Karyn, thats really great to know. I'll definitely remember your recommendation with this since every other one you've provided me has worked out very well.
> 
> PS. Do you think the dosage of aspirin would possibly vary depending on the severity of pain and injury (eg horrific wounds versus anti inflamatory use?). One long term member who I respect here told me that its possible to give a whole aspirin to a severely wounded pigeon. I wasn't game to do that, but like i said I've used 1/6 of a pill and it seemed to be ok. That bird was clearly dying though, and I didn't have access to a vet to euthanase it.


Bella, the use of Aspirin, and its dangers, was discussed a few days ago in another thread. As Pidgey mentions in this thread, and as mentioned in the other, the use of Aspirin should not be taken lightly. Giving a bird a whole Aspirin should never be done or recommended for the reasons stated in the link below.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/white-homing-pigeons-53694.html

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Karyn,
Feefo told me you could use a whole aspirin in certain extreme cases where there are severe & or gaping wounds etc and the bird needs pain relief. I assumed she meant child strength, 80mg. She started a sticky here a while back if you remember, called `Medicating Avian pain'? Anyway I don't know what to think, really. I believe your book and its official dosage. And my own fear regarding NSAID's is that some birds can get a stroke from this type of med. I definitely agree with you that using Aspirin is not to be taken lightly. But a bird in extreme pain with grievous injury needs pain relief, and aspirin is sometimes all a person has on hand. You don't want to be giving a dying bird the equivalent of a couple of aspirins- it won't help much.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Average PIgeon weighs about 1/2 Pound or so ( sorry, earlier I was thinking it was around 1/3rd of a Pound ).

So, one Asprin Tabet for a Pigeon would be about the same as one Asprin Tablet per 1/2 Lb of Person, for a 150 lb person, or, say, 300 Asprin Tablets or more, in one dose, for an average person then.

Way WAY too high a dose.


Granted, maybe the Pigeon would survive this, but, for Pete's sake, have some common sense!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Not arguing with you or Karyn on the correct dose,

But based on that, the dose of 1 X 80 mg tablet would be 40 times the recommended dose (2mg) according to Karyn's stats. 

Anecdotally, severely injured birds can survive this which has been my experience. Not saying anything other than I've seen a mortally injured bird survive it personally, just once. It died of its injuries though, hopefully in less pain.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Asprin dose is widely forgiving.

But, as far as I know, this does not mean that a hugely higher dose will have any proportionately 'better' effect than a normal dose would.

I have never used it for any Bird situations...but, I see no reason not to use it, so long as it is not for conditions where Concussion or probable internal injury are suspected.

Opiates - used correctly - would probably be very good for any severely injured Creature, if it were not for the inconvenient and stupid 'laws' which regulate their posession and use.

Ceyanne mixed with Formula to an agreable degree so it is not too "Hot", and, tubed into the Crop of a Pigeon or Dove who is safe to do this with, is a pretty good global anti-inflammitory, and this is one vector in which 'pain' can be relieved to some extent - by reducing inflammation and permitting easier circulation of the Blood to the effected parts or areas.

Scotch-&-Water also can be very good...dialating Capillaries, reducing inflammation, easing anxiety...promoting relaxaiton...

All of thse can be used concurrently, for that matter.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

The Ceyanne sounds good too, Phil. I've heard some great stuff about it too for human and animal use.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

All in all, it is my opinion that Pigeons and Doves and Birds generally, are natural Neurological Adepts when it comes to managing pain of injuries.

Too, it is probably very hard for us to know how much pain they may be in.


I have had many severely injured ones, who, once I have assured them all is 'Safe' here, and, they can see that it is also with the other Birds goofing around and so on, and, once made comfortable in their Cage with warmth, soft Cloths rolled or folded and so on, offered cooling Water to drink, or as may be...they tend to appear to deal with their pain very well, even looking quite relaxed and easy and interested in the surroundings and the ambiant goings on.

Others I can tell do in fact feel entirely miserable and or are in pain, even when accepting that the situation is one of safety and affection and well wishes for them.

Sometimes of course that is just the way it is...and, we can and do feel pretty happy to see them improve, and, to see them leaving off those looks or postures or other cues of misery and discomfort.

Illness, bad Canker especially, can likely be terribly painful for them.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hey Karyn,
> Feefo told me you could use a whole aspirin in certain extreme cases where there are severe & or gaping wounds etc and the bird needs pain relief. I assumed she meant child strength, 80mg. She started a sticky here a while back if you remember, called `Medicating Avian pain'? Anyway I don't know what to think, really. I believe your book and its official dosage. And my own fear regarding NSAID's is that some birds can get a stroke from this type of med. I definitely agree with you that using Aspirin is not to be taken lightly. But a bird in extreme pain with grievous injury needs pain relief, and aspirin is sometimes all a person has on hand. You don't want to be giving a dying bird the equivalent of a couple of aspirins- it won't help much.


Bella, I have seen that recommendation you mention on a few websites over the years, about high dose treatment with Aspirin, and can only assume that it started in the pigeon fanciers community and expanded to where maybe it was accepted and not questioned. What I do, when in doubt about any particular medicine, is look up the LD50 specs on it (pretty easy to do, just Google LD50 "xxxxxxx"), as mentioned in the link I posted, this is the dose at which 50% of test animals are going to die, and they mostly use rats and mice for this. This way I have in my head a ball park number of the amount of something that it would take to probably kill an animal. I have been told a number of times by doctors, that if Aspirin where now to be introduced as a new medicine there would be a prescription required for it.

So not only with Aspirin, but other meds as well, as Phil says, common sense should prevail, the dosing suggested in the book I have is not an "official" dosing, but a recommendation made on clinical use. If you want to use something that is readily available for pain and is much easier to dose, then pick up some children's Ibuprofen suspension, which is typically made at 100mg/5mL (20mg/mL, you must only get children's at this concentration), the liquid will make dosing easy and accurate.

The recommended avian dosing for Ibuprofen is similar to Aspirin 5-10mg/kg, but it is suggested to be given twice a day, and LD50 on Ibuprofen is three times greater than Aspirin (600mg/kg vs 200mg/kg). So, you could dose a pigeon 1-2 drops (this will be approximately 1mg for every drop) every 12 hours without a problem, but it is still an NSAID and the warnings concerning use in situations where there is a concern for any bleeding/ not wanting to thin the blood/ interfere with coagulation, would apply.

Karyn


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Scotch & water?

Geez! Look up what is toxic to avians.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> Scotch & water?
> 
> Geez! Look up what is toxic to avians.



'Toxic' at what mL/K?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, I have seen that recommendation you mention on a few websites over the years, about high dose treatment with Aspirin, and can only assume that it started in the pigeon fanciers community and expanded to where maybe it was accepted and not questioned. What I do, when in doubt about any particular medicine, is look up the LD50 specs on it (pretty easy to do, just Google LD50 "xxxxxxx"), as mentioned in the link I posted, this is the dose at which 50% of test animals are going to die, and they mostly use rats and mice for this. This way I have in my head a ball park number of the amount of something that it would take to probably kill an animal. I have been told a number of times by doctors, that if Aspirin where now to be introduced as a new medicine there would be a prescription required for it.
> 
> So not only with Aspirin, but other meds as well, as Phil says, common sense should prevail, the dosing suggested in the book I have is not an "official" dosing, but a recommendation made on clinical use. If you want to use something that is readily available for pain and is much easier to dose, then pick up some children's Ibuprofen suspension, which is typically made at 100mg/5mL (20mg/mL, you must only get children's at this concentration), the liquid will make dosing easy and accurate.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate your explanation regarding the different types of advice you can find on the net about aspirin doses. You're right of course, you've got to be careful about taking anecdotal accounts too seriously. Also thanks for the tip on how to google the correct doses- that will help a lot.

Something else about aspirin and other NSAID's generally that I read a while back is they can cause a syndrome that is similar to a stroke in birds. So I don't have the courage to use Nsaid's in birds that I expect to live for that reason. I really wish I had some metacam handy, but I don't come across injured birds that often- its mostly sickness that I see here.

So is ibuprofen ok for birds then? And what about codeine? I suffer migraines headaches, so I occasionally have codeine handy, and its a lot nicer on the tummy than aspirin or ibroprofen.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> I really appreciate your explanation regarding the different types of advice you can find on the net about aspirin doses. You're right of course, you've got to be careful about taking anecdotal accounts too seriously. Also thanks for the tip on how to google the correct doses- that will help a lot.
> 
> Something else about aspirin and other NSAID's generally that I read a while back is they can cause a syndrome that is similar to a stroke in birds. So I don't have the courage to use Nsaid's in birds that I expect to live for that reason. I really wish I had some metacam handy, but I don't come across injured birds that often- its mostly sickness that I see here.
> 
> So is ibuprofen ok for birds then? And what about codeine? I suffer migraines headaches, so I occasionally have codeine handy, and its a lot nicer on the tummy than aspirin or ibroprofen.


Bella, the Meloxicam you mention is an NSAID as well, so its affects would generally be the same as other NSAID drugs, except like a few other newer generation NSAIDs, it's a selective Cyclooxygenase inhibitor, you can Google the information on Meloxicam (Metacam).

Many of the drugs we use on ourselves can be used in birds at the appropriate dose levels and I do not see a problem giving Ibuprofen at the published clinical use rates. With codeine, without a long drawn out explanation, there are different types of opiate receptors in a mammal's brain, pigeons and other birds have a good deal fewer of the type that respond to opiates, like morphine and codeine, so they are relatively ineffective. However, there are synthetic opiates, Butorphanol being the best known and most widely used in birds, that the main type of opiate receptors that are in a bird's brain will respond to. So you would have to get some Butorphanol to have the affect you are looking for, but remember a med like Butorphanol will relive pain, but will not have the anti-inflammatory effects an NSAID would.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Karyn,



Have you found any clinical or pharmacopia info on Ethyl Alcohol ( when in the form of Bourbon or Scotch diluted heavily in Water of course, and not as a reagent or 'pure' liquid ) as a mild analgesic ( and other ) for Avian? 



Phil
Lv


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

This stuff about alcohol being 'okay' or 'good for' birds has come up at least twice in the past, along with caffeine. Plenty of information is available on the web about what is toxic for birds and what is not and relevant links have been posted.

There _may_ be a quantity below which it may not do any noticeable damage, but the warnings are up there so that people do not inadvertently kill their bird by allowing it to sip their beverage. 

It is just common sense!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, the Meloxicam you mention is an NSAID as well, so its affects would generally be the same as other NSAID drugs, except like a few other newer generation NSAIDs, it's a selective Cyclooxygenase inhibitor, you can Google the information on Meloxicam (Metacam).
> 
> Many of the drugs we use on ourselves can be used in birds at the appropriate dose levels and I do not see a problem giving Ibuprofen at the published clinical use rates. With codeine, without a long drawn out explanation, there are different types of opiate receptors in a mammal's brain, pigeons and other birds have a good deal fewer of the type that respond to opiates, like morphine and codeine, so they are relatively ineffective. However, there are synthetic opiates, Butorphanol being the best known and most widely used in birds, that the main type of opiate receptors that are in a bird's brain will respond to. So you would have to get some Butorphanol to have the affect you are looking for, but remember a med like Butorphanol will relive pain, but will not have the anti-inflammatory effects an NSAID would.
> 
> Karyn


Karyn, As always, I'm in awe of your knowledge. Thanks so much for the heads up!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Please show us the Data then John.

Global generalities about hearsay with no details is just noise.


Anything can be 'toxic' in too heavy of a mL/k...including Water.

Anyway...



How curious that you are never normally seen in any of these sorts of Threads, yet, once I posted some guidence in a Wood Pigeon Thread, you keep popping up in any Thread I am in, contradicting me, snubbing me, slighting me and generally dogging my heels.



This is so transparent John, not only to me, but to several others who have noticed it these last few weeks.


I guess by now I should know better, huh...than to EVER post anythng in a Wood Pigeon Thread, " OR ELSE!!!!"


Lol...



Go ahead John and say it isn't so?




Love, 


Phil
Lv




John_D said:


> This stuff about alcohol being 'okay' or 'good for' birds has come up at least twice in the past, along with caffeine. Plenty of information is available on the web about what is toxic for birds and what is not and relevant links have been posted.
> 
> There _may_ be a quantity below which it may not do any noticeable damage, but the warnings are up there so that people do not inadvertently kill their bird by allowing it to sip their beverage.
> 
> It is just common sense!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How curious John you have nothing to say about the advice for giving a whole People Asprin to a Pigeon.




Will you be kind enough to honestly say why this is?


Or must we guess?


Ethyl Alcohol in about the same proportions as a light Scotch and Water IS ( also ) the Antidote for Birds who have drank Ethylene Glycol or similar/related base Antifreeze.


And, it about the only way one can save them in that event.


So, waiting to hear your explaination on why feefo's recommendation of a whole Asprin for a Pigeon to relieve 'pain' is fine with you?


Do tell?


Love,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Karyn,
> 
> Have you found any clinical or pharmacopia info on Ethyl Alcohol ( when in the form of Bourbon or Scotch diluted heavily in Water of course, and not as a reagent or 'pure' liquid ) as a mild analgesic ( and other ) for Avian?
> 
> ...


Phil, I did have a look around a bit for the use of Ethyl Alcohol and I can find no suggested uses, even anecdotal ones, for its therapeutic use in birds or other animals, except the one you mention. The use of Ethyl Alcohol in ethylene glycol poisoning (anti-freeze) where when used in time, it will help prevent the chemical from being metabolized by acting as a competitive agent to the ethylene glycol. Most other mentions are either warnings for direct toxicity, or warnings that an animal that does consume alcohol may injure themselves by being intoxicated, either from poor judgment or impaired motor skills.

I do understand what your purpose would be in using the alcohol, for its sedative effects, but I think you could get the same kind of result in using a benzodiazepine (like Valium) without all the cautions associated with alcohol.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Karyn...


I have no easy way to obtain Valliam.


My experiences with Pigeons or Doves drinking a light Scotch & Water or Bourbon and Water, either as a cool refreshing Summer Drink, or, in instances of suspected Glycol Poisoning, or, in some instances of new arrive versions of them having been especially nervous and worried and in pain...

All of my experiences with this since 1980 have been 100 percent positive and I have never seen any suggestion or hint of any "intoxication" or undesireable effects.

I have never permitted any condition where "intoxication" would occur nor where unsupervised access was allowed.


Why would anyone insist that the only possible condition with this, would be where animals or Birds are being allowed to drink entirely inappropriate concentrations and quantities unrestrained untill totally "drunk'' and "intoxicated"? And or then be a danger to themselves as well?

Is this how these people 'drink'?

Maybe it is.



Ethyl Alcohol is a medicine, and, it's use requires the same quality of Judgement any other Medicine does...same as supervising the new-found self-feeding enthusiasms of a 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' does...same as so many features of the care and husbandry of any sort of Creature does.


Anyway...


What else is new?


Love,

Phil
Lv


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Please show us the Data then John. Global generalities about hearsay with no details is just noise. Anything can be 'toxic' in too heavy of a mL/k...including Water.


I have simply stated that plenty of warnings of toxicity can be found on the web. That is a statement of fact, as a simple Google search will evidence. It has also been included in the PT resource section for a few years:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=201247&postcount=8

This is one such warning, and the link from which it originates



> 5. Alcohol
> 
> Although responsible bird owners would never dream of offering their pet an alcoholic drink, there have been instances in which free roaming birds have attained alcohol poisoning through helping themselves to unattended cocktails. Alcohol depresses the organ systems of birds and can be fatal. Make sure that your bird stays safe by securing him in his cage whenever alcohol is served in your home.


http://birds.about.com/od/feeding/tp/poisonousfoods.htm

If somebody chooses to 'experiment' with birds in their care, nobody can stop them, but suggesting something to others which contradicts the weight of, if you like, 'anecdotal' evidence in avian circles is not a good idea.




pdpbison said:


> Anyway... How curious that you are never normally seen in any of these sorts of Threads, yet, once I posted some guidence in a Wood Pigeon Thread, you keep popping up in any Thread I am in, contradicting me, snubbing me, slighting me and generally dogging my heels.This is so transparent John, not only to me, but to several others who have noticed it these last few weeks.I guess by now I should know better, huh...than to EVER post anythng in a Wood Pigeon Thread, " OR ELSE!!!!" Lol... Go ahead John and say it isn't so?


This is the third time I have read through a thread and seen this thing of allowing birds to have (an unspecified quantity of) alcoholic or caffeine beverage. Of course I will contradict you on such an issue, for the reasons stated above. I will also post on threads where I believe the whole clinical picture concurs with a condition which I think is not being given due consideration. This is a discussion board, and whether one likes it or not, people can and will express views which do not agree with another members's opinion. Sorry, but everyone is not always going to agree with you. 

You, as anyone, are entitled to post on any thread you choose to. Personally, I would not feel that I could offer much beyond basic stabilization advice on a species which was outside of my experience (such as a Band tailed pigeon, or a species found only in Africa).


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> How curious John you have nothing to say about the advice for giving a whole People Asprin to a Pigeon. Will you be kind enough to honestly say why this is? Or must we guess? Ethyl Alcohol in about the same proportions as a light Scotch and Water IS ( also ) the Antidote for Birds who have drank Ethylene Glycol or similar/related base Antifreeze. And, it about the only way one can save them in that event. So, waiting to hear your explaination on why feefo's recommendation of a whole Asprin for a Pigeon to relieve 'pain' is fine with you?


I don't believe I have stated that it is 'fine' with me? I have never given a bird any pain medication except such as has been prescribed by an avian vet (Metacam) for a specific 'patient'. I have no idea whether aspirin is good or bad as a bird medication. I've seen references to it, and other human pain relievers, in passing - and posted a link about Ibuprofen recently in response to a specific query about it - but I can't make any judgement either way. I see no value in engaging in pure guesswork when it comes to medication or illnesses.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> be in using the alcohol, for its sedative effects, but I think you could get the same kind of result in using a benzodiazepine (like Valium) without all the cautions associated with alcohol.
> 
> Karyn


Dear karyn,

What about something like Doxylamine as an alternative to alcohol and valium? We can get it over the counter in Australia. Its not really pain reliever, but more a sedative. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxylamine


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Dear karyn,
> 
> What about something like Doxylamine as an alternative to alcohol and valium? We can get it over the counter in Australia. Its not really pain reliever, but more a sedative.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxylamine


Bella, Doxylamine is an antihistamines and while I have a few references for use another member of this family of drugs in birds, Diphenhydramine (Benadryl), I can find none, even anecdotal for Doxylamine. So trying to use this on a pigeon would be experimental and not something I would recommend doing.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Dear karyn,
> 
> What about something like Doxylamine as an alternative to alcohol and valium? We can get it over the counter in Australia. Its not really pain reliever, but more a sedative.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxylamine


Hi Bella,



I think you mean, Alcohol OR Valium ( not Alcohol AND Valium ).

Mixing those two would not be a good idea, for man or beast or Bird.


In my opinion, we are better off with a careful and appropriate use of Anti-Inflamitories and seeing to adequate Hydration and Nourishment and overall care and comforts for an injured Bird ) than to be over-worried about what we imagine to be or will insist to be their 'pain'.

Inflammation ( dehydration, privation, wrong diagnosis, wrong meds or wrong dosages of meds, clumsy handling ) can complicate an already serious condition or make it a lethal one.

Pain, while an emotional or an emotionally charged issue for people, will not tend to cause fatality in a patient.

I do not wish to appear callous or Hard of Heart, but if people would put the same amount of interest or energy or earnest into learning about how to sensitively care for these Birds in all the rest of the ways they may need, and, to stop obsessing about 'pain', the Birds will be vastly better off.


Practically nothing IS known or demonstrated anyway, as for whether any of the 'pain relievers' available will even do anything at all TO relieve the pain a Bird may be having...we do not know what those drugs are doing in them or if they are even helping at all.

Some things will effect certain things which can be measured.

Pain is not something anyone can measure in someone else, especially in another species where interogatory exchanges about it, are not possible.


We do not know how the various Asprin substitutes will effect metabolization of various Medicines in a Bird.


Etc.


I think the subject of 'pain' is not a useful direction to be putting energy in to, under the circumstances.

Other than general sedatives, the supposedly best Avian Vets in the World have pretty much nothing for understanding or praxis when it comes to relieving pain in Avian patients, because so far, close to nothing is known or understood about how one would do it.

Relieving inflammation WILL relieve associated pain occuring or being made worse, from it...and, that is understood in a general way, and is worth bearing in mind.



While, learning ways of providing emotional and deferential physical comforts, striving to find and accrue powers of observation and critical insight for or toward correct evaluations or diagnosis, is ( a useful direction under the circumstances, and, a direction which will materially benifit the Bird ).



Birds know quite well how to manage pain...Vastly better than people do.


I have seen many seriously injured and infected necrotic wound Birds who gladly, brightly, co-operatively accepted debriding and cleaning out of their wounds and who were entirely stoic and even curious to observe the suturing if such followed, to then be set onto the Examination Table, where, they looked SO much better, brighter and glad to have the relief the procedure evidently provided...they would stand there and start preening, and be into the Seed Bowl immediately upon arriving home.

Meanwhile, other people who's promary motive is to appease their own emotionally charged issues, would INSIST on global anaesthesia, and, a the tacit probable fatality or damage to the Bird from it, because they as individuals are oblivious to and obsessed by what they insist to be someone else's pain, while having no rationality or any real insight about it, at all.


On and on...


Clumsy caregivers or clumsier Vets in trying to examine an injured Bird, will cause more pain than was there already and be oblivious to it, later, to be obsessing on what they will insist is the Bird's pain, when the Bird is at rest, when what they are seeing is depression dehydration, privation, or physical discomfort, pro-tem mobility compromise, haltings...etc...etc...

I have seen people do this many times - a Bird is injured or having troubles standing, and a person virtually gasps, covering their mouth, then, saying things about how much PAIN the Bird is in or even that it ought to be "Put out of it's Misery"...etc.

This is people's way of substituting their own irrational and emotionally charged programming, for what an understanding or deference TO the Bird, could be otherwise.


Anyway...


I know you mean well with this, but to me it is just a wrong direction for your energy and determination to be chanelled into.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> I think you mean, Alcohol OR Valium ( not Alcohol AND Valium ).


No, I didn't mean mixing them at all! I meant alcohol and valium have both been discussed in this thread as sedatives for birds. Alcohol seems ruled out, and I don't have access to valium. So my mind's open to other human-medicine alternatives that might work. I have nothing in the cupboard for sedation and so I am just asking questions...



> I know you mean well with this, but to me it is just a wrong direction for your energy and determination to be chanelled into.


Phil, You're a dear but you can be quite condescending you know? I have a passion for learning about these things. And I think you're out of line to say that Birds don't feel pain the way we do, so therefore I shouldn't take an interest in learning all about pain relief. How could you possibly know what an injured bird feels? And who are you to tell me what i should and shouldn't be interested in learning about?

No biggie, but I'm just saying...


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