# How could this possibly happen?



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

2 birds layed 2 eggs, one bird is paired but her eggs never hatched the others always hatch so I swapped one over so each bird had one fertile egg. 

Yesterday the egg under the right parent hatched, the baby was fine. Today the other hatched, the baby is fine but the other baby has somehow managed to move to the next box, under the one where it hatched, I found it dead earlier today, that was cold and so was the other unhatched egg. The nest boxes align exactly one above the other and the chick was at the back of the nest box, it's crop had food in when I found it. How did it get there?

Is it possible the parents picked it up and moved it there with their beaks? 

There was also another bird sitting on 2 eggs, found one if these on the floor but she is still incubating the other, the boxes have wood cross the front to stop any of this happening, theres no way a day old chick could clamber over it, whats happened?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

wow , hmm its kinda hard to imagine this, would u be able to post a picture?


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

A photo of what? I haven't got one of the chick, it seemed ok when I checked it over, no broken bones or anything. Here is the only photo I have of the nest boxes, you can just see the second row underneath.








Another thing, a chick, just about flying age, was knocked out the nest a few nights ago and chased outside by the others, found her on the morning dead. Everything that could go wrong seems to be happening all at once!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Becca, I'm so sorry you had to find your babies dead.   You must feel terrible. I don't see how the new baby could have gotten down into the second row of boxes. I've never heard of a parent pigeon moving a baby, I didn't know they could do that. Hopefully others will have ideas so you can make sure it doesn't happen again. It looks like you did everything right, please try not to feel too bad. I hope you are able to figure out what happened.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You have to be careful about declaring a freshly-hatched chick dead, by the way. My bird Morty was abandoned by her parents soon after hatching on a cold day in February. I found the little one cold, not breathing and generally lifeless. I brought her in and held her under a heat lamp for 10 minutes. In about four minutes, she absorbed enough heat that she began breathing. I put her in an incubator and raised her myself. She's a perfectly good pigeon today, reared on KayTee Exact Hand Feeding Formula. So, they can go into a hibernation-like state and look dead but can still be revived. It ain't over till it's over. Keep that in mind next time.

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> You have to be careful about declaring a freshly-hatched chick dead, by the way. My bird Morty was abandoned by her parents soon after hatching on a cold day in February. I found the little one cold, not breathing and generally lifeless. I brought her in and held her under a heat lamp for 10 minutes. In about four minutes, she absorbed enough heat that she began breathing. I put her in an incubator and raised her myself. She's a perfectly good pigeon today, reared on KayTee Exact Hand Feeding Formula. So, they can go into a hibernation-like state and look dead but can still be revived. It ain't over till it's over. Keep that in mind next time.
> 
> Pidgey


I've done the same thing, more than once.............ALWAYS try to warm them and see if they will revive. If they don't, then you've lost nothing. My Scooter was found "dead"..........20 minutes on a heating pad and he was good as new. His little brother/sister however did not come around, after over an hour on a heating pad. You just don't know till you try.
About this baby being "moved"..........there is no way that the parents or any other pigeon for that matter could have moved this baby. There is also no way that this baby got from one box to another on it's own. 
Go back over every little detail, cause there IS a logical explanation.........just not sure what it is yet.........


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> About this baby being "moved"..........there is no way that the parents or any other pigeon for that matter could have moved this baby. There is also no way that this baby got from one box to another on it's own.
> Go back over every little detail, cause there IS a logical explanation.........just not sure what it is yet.........


Becca...could something (predator) have gotten in there and tried to raid the nests? Something small like a mouse, but carnivorous - (shrews?) I don't like to raise the spectre of predators and I suppose it's unlikely, but I'm trying to imagine what could have moved the babies like that and it doesnt seem likely the parents did it.


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

I did warm her but not for very long, I feel so bad now, what if she could of lived. It's heart breaking to think of her tiny body all limp and cold. I'm devastated, I've potentially killed her, she looked so sweet and gentle. She could have grown up like your birds did, oh no it's so awful!


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Poor Becca! Don't feel so bad - you didn't know! Neither did I till I read it just now!


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Snipes, theres a mouse that I caught eating with the birds but no shrews, even if there was I cant see any possible way of getting in side, there are 2 birds that are nesting on the floor, despite half the nest boxes being empty, one has a chick under it and I'd think anything would go for the easier option and take them.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Becca199212 said:


> I did warm her but not for very long, I feel so bad now, what if she could of lived. It's heart breaking to think of her tiny body all limp and cold. I'm devastated, I've potentially killed her, she looked so sweet and gentle. She could have grown up like your birds did, oh no it's so awful!


Don't feel bad...........I did the same thing with my first cold baby way back in 2000. It looked dead to me...........so I just buried it. Long after that, I found out too that they CAN sometimes be brought back.......live and learn.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

It's probably not a predator Becca. Are the parents pretty young? I mean, inexperienced? MAybe they just flailed and knocked the babies out...I've had them get the little ones out of the nest, on the shelf, on the floor, trapped between the nest material and the bowl - no way a day old chick moves itself around that much. I've also had young first time parents kill their own chicks by stepping or sitting on them too hard. Careless and clumsy is how they sometimes are


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You said the baby was in the back of the nest box. Could there possibly be a hole of any kind in the top box (bottom of nest box) that the baby could have fallen through? It wouldn't have to be very big.
Do you use nest bowls or just the bottom of the nest box? Believe it or not, even a one day old baby can scoot quite a bit. That's exactly why Scooter was named Scooter cause after I got him in the house and warmed, he "scooted" around like no bodies business. I excpect that's how he got out from under his dad to begin with.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

LOL...........there's a whole bunch of people reading this thread. SOMEONE figure this out........it's driving me crazy!!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The only thing I could think of was the baby was somehow pushed from the top shelf, maybe hit the bottom shelf and somehow tumbled in it and then moved enough to get to the back?

Becca, we also - well, my husband - saved a newborn the way Pidgey described. She was so cold and appeared lifeless but we put her in the sun and she revived. I think survival can depend on just how long they are left alone and how cold it is to begin with. Your baby may have been there too long for warming to have done any good at all. Although we don't know for sure how long our baby was out, it was less than 3 hours.

Also, remember that a parent pigeon will often know something is wrong with a baby and deliberately throw them out.

Don't feel too badly. I had a garbage bag out to put our baby in but Lewis saved her.


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

> It's probably not a predator Becca. Are the parents pretty young? I mean, inexperienced?


No they've had at least 5 sucsessful cluches already. 



> Could there possibly be a hole of any kind in the top box (bottom of nest box) that the baby could have fallen through?


Theres about a 1cm gap, I don't think it could have fallen through there, why didn't they sit on it in the box underneath, how come they left the other egg, the other bird was quite happily sitting on it before I took it away tonight.



> Also, remember that a parent pigeon will often know something is wrong with a baby and deliberately throw them out.


If thats the case, witll the other baby have the same? 



> survival can depend on just how long they are left alone and how cold it is to begin with


It could have been out since this morning, it's very cold outside, 3.5*C was the lowest and 10*C the highest according to the BBC.



> it's driving me crazy!!!


Yup me too, got to stop it happening again. Maggie, that would work, What an awful way to die, it's amazing she wasn't bleeding or had anything broken. Do you think maybe this happened then she got too cold with no parenincubation?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> The only thing I could think of was the baby was somehow pushed from the top shelf, maybe hit the bottom shelf and somehow tumbled in it and then moved enough to get to the back?


That's exactly what my first thought was. I've had some pigeons accidentally drag their newly hatched babies out of the nest, but it's only happened with my Lahores...not homers. Their big size and muffs make them a little clumbsy in the nest. Since yours are homers, I doubt they'd be able to do it like that. There's always a chance someone could have been fighting them for the nest or something and the baby got pushed out. You haven't had any problems with rats do you? They like to eat the little babies...so maybe he was wondering off with that one but got scared away by something, leaving the baby behind in another box? Just a thought.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Becca, I don't think she would have suffered at all. She may have been cold but after a while I think she just went to sleep.

Just keep a close eye on the other baby. You may want to put something at the front of the nest that would keep a baby from falling out.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

hmm.. i gues its POSSIBLE that the baby could have scooted itself to the ege.. and fell over , while at the same time there was another pigeon under the box at the edge "stretching" or expanding its wing and the baby fell onto the wing and rolled off the pigeon and into the box below?


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

If thats what happened, I suppose it was quite lucky then, I've been meaning to set up a izzie cam type thing in there for a while, I wish I had done it now, it would have been some help.

Thanks Maggie, I'm pleased it wasn't too painful. The other babies nesting on the floor, there are pleanty of free nest boxes but the bird always lays on the floor.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Becca,

I'm sorry to hear about the youngster.

It is best, regardless of whether you figure out what happened, to make sure all barriers to the outside are closed. All openings even larger then a 1/4 inch need to be covered.

You should also ensure the nest boxes have a front that keeps the baby in, as well as intrudors out. This will help narrow the possiblities. A baby can scoot its way out, however I have never seen it, they never want to venture until most of their feathers are in and they can reasonably make it to the ground safely. Parents have been known to abandon their babies if they feel the baby is sick, and intruders will hurt babies, so all you can do is decrease the odds and keep a close eye of what is going on. Then you may find out what actually happened.


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

I can't believe it! I'm so angry and sort of dissapointed! I can't understand it! 

The other chick has died, warming just didn't work, whats happening? 

Someones got to know! 

I've had so many die in such a short time, do yous think swapping the eggs was a bad idea? 

Maybe it's just too late on in the year, maybe I've got devil birds, maybe I'm not the person to be raising pigeons? 

All I've had is back luck recently. I double and tripple checked for any openings or possible places something could get in, there were none, I've got to have done something wrong somewhere along the line to have this happen again...


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Oh Becca - I am so sorry  Though I don't have any experience to offer any advice I wanted to let you know I understand how frustrasting it must be. Please don't give up though -- I get the sense that you are a good pijie mommy despite what's happened recently. I'm sure others with knowledge & experience will weigh in shortly. {{{{hugs}}}}


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Becca, very sorry to hear about the baby......... 
How did it die? Did you find it cold again? Was it under the parents? Did you have in the house?
You also asked if switching the eggs was a bad idea...............that depends on when the eggs were laid by the hen that you gave the eggs or egg to in the first place. I don't get the feeling that any of this is new to you, but just wondering "out loud" if it's possible that the parents weren't ready to take care of a baby yet............


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Yes the parents were still sitting on it after it had died. The eggs were laid one day appart I think, the parents who hatched the first chick have had alot of youngsters that have lived but the one who hatched the second is a pair of fantails that never have had fertile eggs but they sit out for weeks after it's hatch date so I thought I'd give them one to hatch, both of them are atleast a year old probably older, one we rescued so can't say for sure. I thought they were perfectly capable parents but obviously not...

It just all worries me, there was supposed to be one hatching today, haven't heard any good news so far and a pair due to hatch in a week, I don't want them all to die the same way these two did.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Did anyone read my theory? i was just wondering if it might have been somewhat accurate of the truth. what do u think becca? could that have happened?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Becca, 



Any time there are contentions between adults, for or about Nest sites or Territory ambiance...extant Babys can get trampled in fights...and sometimes this also can dislodge them some small distance where they fall or as may be....or, once the fight is over, the Baby can soon wilt from trampling injurys, or get cold from being no longer in the Nest...and the parents can abandon them then.


See if you are having contentions going on with the adults...

I seem to be returning often to my own observations, that it can become quite dangerous for Babys, in any captive conditions where there is too little room for a given population density of adults or breeding-age adults...especially if Nests are exposed and not hidden or discrete.

Even with no 'Bully Birds', there will for any group, be a threshold where their numbers, for the room available, will invite contentions and fighting and we might not always know this unless we live with them indoors to discover just where that threshold is.

What I have found, here anyway, is that the threshold is about one Bird for every 22 square feet of floor space, and even at that, with lots of high places and nooks and so on for them to choose from, and even at that, half are no-mate post fledglings or old Batchlors or Batchlorettes not having mates either...around that density for room, all is peaceful and easy for eveyone...past it, and it starts to be a hell, of frequent fighting, contentions, territorial assertions, and danger for babys who are not in quite protected and hidden, discrete Nests.

Now, I know that is not practical for Lofts or other usual methods of Pigeon Keeping, where one square foot of floor per Bird is likely not uncommon..!

But, it seems to be at least a rough guide to the Natural History of the Specie's habits and dispositions, anyway...whatever it's elastic limits may be for any given kind or group.


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> hmm.. i gues its POSSIBLE that the baby could have scooted itself to the ege.. and fell over , while at the same time there was another pigeon under the box at the edge "stretching" or expanding its wing and the baby fell onto the wing and rolled off the pigeon and into the box below?



Hi Flying-Pidgey, 


The very young do not tend to move much at all...or, more than an inch or so just to poop, if that far...as they get older, they might move two inches or something, then three, but when of an yellow-down only age, they will not move much at all no matter what is happenning, and they can die from cold inches from mom or dad if mom or dad do not nudge or 'roll' them back under.


Phil
l v


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Thankyou all, had another hatch today and will be keeping a very close eye on it. 

Phil, that is a possibility and the best theory so far. I have never saw any aggression between the birds since I introduced a few in the summer. But then I don't constantly watch them. If it ws happening is there anything I could do about it?


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