# Ethics in replacing fertile eggs with fakes



## Dovena (Apr 12, 2005)

My rehabbed feral pigeons have breeded and are making lots of beautiful offspring. My apartment is getting rather filled up, however. Some pigeon people have advised me to wait until the mom is distracted and steal her fertile eggs, then replace them with dummy (fake, plastic) eggs which she and her mate will then take turns sitting on. I tried doing this and actually held the warm fertile eggs in one hand, while replacing them with the plastic ones. Just then, mom pigeon must have had a bad omen, because she came running down the hall towards the nest and I just couldn't do it. I replaced the real eggs into the nest. The babies were fine. But now it is three sets of babies later and I am still in this predicament. It's not good to kill a healthy pigeon, so isn't it just as bad to kill a healthy fertile egg (embryo)? Is it crueler to separate the male pigeon from his mate so that there will be no fertile eggs henceforth? Please advise.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Dovena, 

When are you taking these fertile eggs? ..after how long of incubation time? You should remove them after they are laid and then you are not "killing" anything as the embryo hasn't even started to develop yet. Separating the pair is not very easy on them.


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## RoundAbout (Apr 24, 2005)

I have this problem, too. One solution I have used is to take away one egg, and let the couple raise one chick. That cuts down your population by 50% anyway. Then I only let them breed once or twice a year by taking the eggs away as soon as laid. The pair hasn't developed a great affection for their eggs yet, so don't seem to be upset. They just begin again with their homely activities.
RoundAbout


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Dovena -

Brad is right. It is fine to remove the eggs and replace with plastic straight after each is laid, or both at once immediately after the 2nd egg is laid. They won't really start to be 'living' until, say, day after the 2nd egg appears, to be safe.

John


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Adoption*

Adoption might be a option. Ask alot of questions to get a good home. Or Sell or charge a fee. All pigeons even ferals have value. And can get a good home with your help.


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## Dovena (Apr 12, 2005)

*What about the deception aspect?*

So you believe that it's not "living" from the moment it is laid? Then what about the deception aspect? Deceiving your trusting birds and tricking them into devotedly continuing to sit on their eggs, not knowing that their trusted owner has played a trick and substituted phony ones. And also, from the moment the viable egg is laid, how can we say that it is not alive? It contains the live germ. Isn't it all relative?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Perhaps the situation needs to be viewed from the perspective of purposely bringing a new life into a world that may be less than kind and welcoming assuming the bird is ultimately released to fend for itself. Unfortunately the harsh reality of having "pet" pigeons is that nobody I know has the resources to properly house and care for an ever growing and unlimited number of pigeons. The buck has to stop somewhere, and the only place that can be is with the human who is responsible for the well being of the birds.

JMO ..

Terry


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

In nature population is controlled through predation and disease. By replacing their eggs you are controlling the population in a much kinder and gentler way.


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## Dovena (Apr 12, 2005)

*What about segregating the males from the females, as another birth control method?*

I would appreciate your advice on the alternative "birth control" method of segregating the male birds from the females. That way, there will be no "right to life" dilemma to begin with. Your thoughts would be much appreciated. One person whom I know who has a coop with hundreds of birds does this.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Dovena, 

May I ask you, how many pigeons do you have currently? And you mentioned that you live in apartment so where do you house them in the apartment? I think you will find, that separating the male and female birds is not beneficial in your situation...unless you have one large apartment and many different rooms to put them in. I can also tell you that once they are separated, they will spend all their time calling to their mates and trying to find a way to get to them... especially if they can see and hear them. I agree with Terry here, you have to take some responsibility for your birds breeding out of control. I don't think you'll be happy with the end result of separating a mated pair of birds and I know that the birds definitely won't be.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Dovena,

You've been given some good advice here in response to your questions.

I don't think there is any "right to life" dilemma here.....apparently if you pull and switch the eggs with "dummy" eggs immediately after the second egg is laid, there is nothing that you are killing, if that is your fear, because the eggs will not have begun to develop. Please see a previous thread for verification..just click on it:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9637

Also, you seem to be very concerned about upsetting your pigeons, as you mentioned that you felt switching their eggs would be deceptive and would alarm them. I think separating mated pairs just for the sake of birth control, would be much more upsetting and alarming to them, than simply switching the eggs.

Linda


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello everyone,

This is a topic I have been dealing with for years...to breed or not to breed...to seperate or not to seperate...

First of all, I do not think it is wise to break up couples after they have been together for years, they have truly bonded and seperating them would be inhumane. It is okay for youngsters who have just grown up, and have no mates, they adjust well, especially if they are in a racing team.

Second of all, it is not inhumane to pull eggs daily and replace with dummy eggs. It is more inhumane to overcrowd the birds you have. I have been removing eggs daily and replacing them with dummy eggs, and believe me, with 50 pigeons, it is a task, a labor of love, because I love my birds. I would jeopardize my already existing birds with overcrowding, and they would become misserable if I allowed my birds to breed. The quality of their lives would go down, and they would not be a happy group. As it stands, they are happy, healthy, interact with each other, have plenty of room to fly, bathe, good quality grains and seeds to eat. I would rather save the room that IS left for rehabbing needy birds, that already exist. 

We have increased the size of our coop twice, and have added walk-in iaviaries where the birds can fly. Not, because of increasing population, but because my birds happiness takes priority. They excercise, play, and swim, a regular pigeon haven. Birdy once told me, after he saw the picture of our coop..."When I die, If I should come back as a pigeon, I would like to come back and live in your coop!"

By the way, Skye and the gang say hi! Tiny has come to visit, but he thinks he is human and wants to hang out with us, he has no interest in my coop or aviary or pigeons. He loves to sit on my shoulder and preen himself, if I try to pick him up (as a pigeon would be held) he bites my finger, he's totally insulted and lets me know "how dare you pick me up like that, what do you think I am, a pigeon!" He is such a cool bird!!! Reti has done a great job with him and all her pigeons!


So glad to be back on line....

Treesa


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Treesa, 
Tiny misses you too. You are the only person who give him the attention he deserves, other than me. He really can't understand why he can't hang out more with humans.

You have the nicest coop and the happiest birds. I just love that place.

Hi to Skye and the rest og the gang.

Reti


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Dovena,

I would not concern yourself with such concepts as 'deceiving' pigeons. That is a human thing. Someone posted a simple view of how it works with them, on another group, which I pass on. Basically, that for 'everyday' life, they know what they have to do at a given point but not why - i.e., they don't see the 'big picture'. So, they sit eggs until they hatch - or, after the right period, by some kind of internal clock, they give up on them if they don't hatch. It is unlikely that they 'know' what 'should' have happened after 17 - 19 days. 

They have intelligence, of course they do, but for these basic functions it is not necessary to employ it.

Treesa,

Hi and welcome back to the mad world of online pigeonfolk 

John


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## Dovena (Apr 12, 2005)

*One pair has been bonded 3 months; the other pair, only one month*

Here are additional facts: There are two pairs of mated birds. One has bonded since late January of this year, so they have been together around 3 months. The second couple has been together only a little over one month. I have a large living room, an eat-in kitchen, a bedroom, and a bathroom. The apartment is quite long, so the birds, if segregated by sex, would not necessarily hear or see one another. The mates have been together only a matter of months, not years. Also, another difficulty in removing the eggs is that there is always a bird sitting on them, and sometimes they ATTACK quite fiercely. It's not that they calmly move over and allow me to remove the eggs. Sometimes, it hurts! This was not supposed to happen. I was only rehabbing some injured birds. They fell in love. I was advised to replace the fertile eggs with dummy ones, not to worry. Then it turned out to be not so easy to do. They don't just give up their fertile eggs without a fight. It seems the moms sitting on eggs would fight to the death to protect their eggs. My instinct is always that, well, if they feel that strongly about it that they would risk their lives to attack me and fight to the death, then who am I to argue? Do I win, because I am bigger than she is? I dunno.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Dovena,

We have an aviary with a lot of rescued and non-releasable feral pigeons and unwanted homers. Most have paired up, so we have to check frequently for new eggs. 

Because they are all kinds of temperaments, some are not too difficult when we check under them, but some are really fierce! 

I'm quite used (and resigned) to getting a few bites. They do not like their space to be invaded by the creeping hand 

(Actually, with our white 'house pigeon', I often have mock fights with him and end up with a few little red peck marks on my hand as a sign that he won - which he celebrates by turning circles and cooing proudly!)

Our plastic eggs have a ridge round the center, so when I do the check I have a plastic egg in my hand, put the other hand under the bird and feel if he/she is on a real egg or not and if so just slide the plastic egg under and remove the real one. They settle down again peaceably once they realize they still have an 'egg' (or two) under them. Some of the birds I can just gently preen their head and neck to reassure them.

John


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Like Treesa, I have a large flock and must replace eggs with wooden ones nearly every day. It's not difficult. You put the fake egg in your closed hand, slip the hand under the bird's breast and make the switch. That way they don't actually see you take their eggs. They still feel eggs under them. The eggs don't hatch, they give up after 20 days or so and start over. My pigeons are very happy the day I clean out the nest and provide them a new, clean nest bowl. It's as if they say, "Hey, baby, we get to mate again!" 

If I didn't do this, I'd have an overcrowded loft and my pigeons would probably get sick. As others have said, you simply cannot allow them to continue raising babies forever. I know it's hard to toss those lovely eggs and yes, it still bothers me a little, but it would be far worse to raise more pigeons than I can properly care for. If you take eggs asap after the second one is laid, nothing has yet developed. It's a potential life, not a life. Birds are not like mammals, where cell development starts immediately with fertilization. Development of the embryo doesn't begin until incubation commences.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

"Cell development doesn't begin with fertilization with pigeons"

Couldn't have said it better myself, and I don't think we would be eating those organic chicken eggs either, if that weren't the case. Those eggs are usually fertilized, but there isn't an embryo. The farmer knows to pick them up daily, so there is no incubation! No brooding..no embryos!

Thanks birdmom!  

treesa


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## FlyByNight (Apr 25, 2005)

Dovena said:


> So you believe that it's not "living" from the moment it is laid? Then what about the deception aspect? Deceiving your trusting birds and tricking them into devotedly continuing to sit on their eggs, not knowing that their trusted owner has played a trick and substituted phony ones. And also, from the moment the viable egg is laid, how can we say that it is not alive? It contains the live germ. Isn't it all relative?


The question here is not whether what's in the egg is "living". Every fruit and vegetable we eat is living and we have no problem with killing them. The deciding question is whether what is in the egg is sentient, conscious, capable of experiencing the fact that it is alive, whether it is a life yet or just the material and instructions from which a life will be made.

If the nervous system and brain have not yet developed, there is no way for consciousness to exist yet, not even sleeping consciousness. That's why people here advocate replacing the eggs as soon as posible in the first few days, so that it will not yet have developed to the point where it becomes capable of feeling, of awareness. After replacing the eggs, you need to destroy them, also as soon as possible, by freezing or breaking, to make certain they won't continue developing.

I do feel sad when I replace real eggs with dummy eggs and destroy them. But I know I am not actually killing pigeons and that I am benefiting the other birds who must share their scarce resources with all arriving new lives.

- Laurie


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