# Need HELP!!! DADDY just DIE!!



## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't know what to do!! I just found the daddy to my 14 day old babies dead on the loft floor. He is a 2009 bird. I don't know what happened and I don't want to loose anymore. I just buried him. Will the mom still take care of the babies? I just checked and there crops are full. I know he was alive this morning when I feed him, he ate too. The babies look good and healthy. Any help would be appreciated. I am so bummed..........


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Was he thin...his keel bone prominent? Did you feel his crop for food or excess fluid?
Did you look inside his mouth?
Anything unusual about his body?


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> Was he thin...his keel bone prominent? Did you feel his crop for food or excess fluid?
> Did you look inside his mouth?
> Anything unusual about his body?


He looked healthy, not skinny at all, didn't look at his crop or mouth, he seemed in excellent shape. I already buried him and didn't think to look. I am bummed and didn't think of that. The 1st thing I did was come here not thinking to look in his mouth.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You said he looked healthy...did you feel him?


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> You said he looked healthy...did you feel him?


Yes, he felt fine. I did notice one of his eyes was gone, I guess one of the other males pecked him cause he was on the floor by his nest box.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Well there's clue. What else?


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> Well there's clue. What else?


The only other thing I can think of is I have been seeing diareaa in the loft and sometimes it smells, it comes and goes.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Rackerman............So very sorry for your loss.

Sometimes these things happen for no apparent reason and it's impossible to determine the actual cause of death without a necropsy.

You need to concentrate on the mother and the babies now. The hen might need some assistance in feeding the babies on her own. You will need to constantly check both babies and make sure their crops are full or you will have to supplement with some babybird formula by syringe. You will not have to do this for more than a week or so, as at about 3 weeks old they should start self feeding.

Pay attention to the mother bird as well, as she might become depressed by the loss of her mate.

Keep a close eye on all three of them as there is no way of knowing what caused the Daddy's death.

Again, so sorry.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

lwerden said:


> Rackerman............So very sorry for your loss.
> 
> Sometimes these things happen for no apparent reason and it's impossible to determine the actual cause of death without a necropsy.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I will watch close. I have to learn!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

rackerman said:


> The only other thing I can think of is I have been seeing diareaa in the loft and sometimes it smells, it comes and goes.



The runny poop may be from nesting birds that hold their poop while on the nest. It can be very runny and stinky.
I guess I'm stumped.
It's very sad to happen and find. You may need to help the mom feed the babies. is she on another set of eggs? If she lays another set, I would remove them.
As a precaution, pick up each of your birds and check them over to see if any feels thin.
You leave food out all the time...right?


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> The runny poop may be from nesting birds that hold their poop while on the nest. It can be very runny and stinky.
> I guess I'm stumped.
> It's very sad to happen and find. You may need to help the mom feed the babies. is she on another set of eggs? If she lays another set, I would remove them.
> As a precaution, pick up each of your birds and check them over to see if any feels thin.
> You leave food out all the time...right?


No, she's not on the second set of eggs and yes, I leave food out all the time just cause of the babies. I am just freaked out right now and not thinking straight. I love my birds.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> You said he looked healthy...did you feel him?


Charis, you can see a pick of daddy on the babies in this thread, you can see he was healthy. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/pics-of-babies-at-2-days-old-43956.html


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

He looks good but I can't tell anything by looking.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Have you thought about taking a collective sample of poop to a vet for analysis?


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> He looks good but I can't tell anything by looking.


Thanks Charis, I guess I will have to keep an eye on all them and if need be we will help feeding the babies. I just pray there is no disease. I will now look over a bird if one does die. I am new and just learning. I started last September. My birds get organic ACV, garlic water and Jay3 helped me with Probios, shes been very helpfull to me and I apreciate her much.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Birds are like humans. Sometimes they die from heart attacks and other such problems.

It happens infrequently but it does happen.

I'm betting the hen will feed the babies just fine. If you have other young birds "on the floor", meaning around the age of three weeks. Then the parents of those birds will also feed the babies you are concerned about. If they are "on the floor" also. Two weeks is a little young to be "on the floor", but should work out okay. if the mate of your deceased bird is on more eggs, those should be put under another nesting bird or discarded. She can't have had eggs very long if the babies are two weeks old though. One day or two days at the very most.

Don't panic. The mother will take care of her young 99% of the time. keep an eye on them and hand feed a little if they appear to not be getting well taken care of. Just force their mouth open gently and insert grain, one morsel at a time. Maybe ten seeds a day. Surely the mother hen will be giving them something, if not more than enough.

Good luck.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> Birds are like humans. Sometimes they die from heart attacks and other such problems.
> 
> It happens infrequently but it does happen.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the encourgement!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> Birds are like humans. Sometimes they die from heart attacks and other such problems.
> 
> It happens infrequently but it does happen.
> 
> ...




If you need to hand feed, 10 seeds are not enough for a growing baby. If you need to intervene, you can hand pop defrosted and warmed corn and peas in the amount of 40-50 pieces each feeding and every time the crop empties. I can post you the directions.
My experience is that other pairs will not feed other couple's babies and often they will attack them.
You will need to monitor these babies carefully to make sure their crops are full.
Also...I really doubt the dad had a heart attack. I think something is going on in your loft.
Sorry conditionfreak. My 23 years has taught me differently.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here are the feeding instructions that work like a charm...


You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. 
You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. 
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. The next step… seeds. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas and corn make it lumpy and squishy.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Ha Ha. Well, my 57 years have taught me differently. Maybe I don't panic and let nature do what it does best. Continue the species.

Ain't saying I know best. But I do know what I wrote. I have used the "ten seeds" method successfully a time or two. But with the caveat that I wrote above. That the mother hen should be giving them "something". If she ain't, then of course do what it takes.

I also have experienced a healthy pigeon having a heart attack and it seems exactly like what was described by the OP. But, who of us can tell from a forum thread whereupon there is no real circumstancial evidence?

My experience is that other couples with babies "on the ground" will ALWAYS feed whatever baby begs from them. Sure, if pairs have nests on the ground and a baby goes into said nest, they will attack it. But you should not have nests on the ground anyway. (yes, I know that sometimes they "insist" on doing that).

I have to say that many here, go overboard in treating pigeons like they are fragile and frail. Yea, I know they are babies. But they ain't human babies. They are pigeons and mature a whole lot faster than humans or kangaroos (why I picked Roos, I don't know. Just popped in my mind). It is like the difference between Liberals and Conservatives. It is easy to be overly cautious and giving. It is harder to be less giving and demand more from those needing.

Each of us must make choices and our choices do have consequences for sure. But I try my best to NOT interfere with nature, as much as I can.

But we have had that argument before. IMO, weak is weak, and should be given minimal help (talking pigeons here folks). That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.

I present my way and you present your way. Let the OP decide what he wants to do. They are his pigeons.

Again, good luck to the little ones.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, if the Mom is feeding sufficiently, then you won't have to feed them at all. Maybe just try to wean them a little sooner to make it easier on her, but if she isn't feeding them, then the peas and corn work great. They seem to start picking up seeds sooner by using this method also. Leave a dish of seed and a dish of water in the nest box if you can to let them see her pecking at the seed and drinking the water. They'll learn faster by watching Mom.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Condition Freak...I'm not going to argue with you but I am going to say that one of my specialities is rescue/rehab/babies...that is what I have been doing for 23 years.
Personally...I'm a smidge older than 23....


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Charis. There is no argument here. We both want the babies to be fine. We just approach it differently.

"Fine' to me, is that they are raised as self sufficient as possible and with as little interference as possible.

It is like a human having a fever. If you go to the emergency room, they will do all kinds of stuff to and for you.

If you stay at home. You just take a cool bath, maybe some Tylenol, and monitor it.

No need for a blood test or doctor assessment.

But some will choose the emergency room. Not me.

Jay3, you are correct. MY method will help to wean them a little earlier. By "helping" the overworked mother (overworked because daddy is not also helping feed the babies), and giving them supplemental feed by hand.

Done.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

rackerman, I'm so sorry for your loss. That must have been horrible to find your beloved bird on the ground like that. I hope it is an isolated incident. My thoughts are with you. Sincerely, Pigeonlove


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh this is so sad, i'm so sorry for your loss rackerman. i don't really have much to add aside from trying to figure out who killed him and remove the offender from the loft until the babies are big enough to get away from him.
maybe he was defending his family


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Had the same happen to me 2 weeks ago. I brought Mom and babies inside so she wouldn't have to worry about competing for food and protecting babies. i hand fed 2-3 times a day and she did the rest. Now they are on seed. I believe my father died from choking as he was eating when I went to get fresh water and when I returned, he was dead. He had food dribbling from his mouth. Cleared away the food but everything was nice and pink. I feel your pain!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Oh I'm so sorry Rackerman.
I've had a couple birds (3-4) die in the past 15 years for 'no apparent reason'. Seemingly perfectly healthy birds in good weight just drop  It does happen and sometimes you never find the answer or cause.
I would keep a close eye on mom and babies AND your other birds for some sort of symptoms (poops, appetite, activity levels and bullying) to help determine what might have happened.
Pigeons are naturally "hardy", and with that said, I don't like to "overload" my birds with vitamins and probiotics. I don't want to interfere with their own system building immunities. Fresh food and water twice a day, ACV in water a couple times a month, wormed 4 times a year (because of worm problems!), and I only isolate and treat symptomatic birds. 
I do intervene when I see a danger with babies, and I would do whatever you can to ease the burden on mom.
Keep us posted and good luck!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> oh this is so sad, i'm so sorry for your loss rackerman. i don't really have much to add aside from trying to figure out who killed him and remove the offender from the loft until the babies are big enough to get away from him.
> maybe he was defending his family


The bird was found dead. No one said another bird killed him. He could have been pecked was he was down.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Im so sorry. others have posted similar things happening to lone birds in their lofts too, I know one ate too much and regurgitated and choked, Another they think was a heart attack. wish you could of looked down his throat, but can't do that now. you have good support here of what to do now. good luck with those young ones.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'd want to know what killed the bird, in case there is something going on in the loft. Get the poop checked on your birds. Better to catch problems right away. You cannot just assume that it wasn't an illness. Illness is more likely than a heart attack or something like that. Always better to know for sure.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Jay3.....I am thinking about bring the mother and babies in the house in a rabbit cage to keep a good eye on them, what do you think? I don't have a vet to check the feces out!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> Im so sorry. others have posted similar things happening to lone birds in their lofts too, I know one ate too much and regurgitated and choked, Another they think was a heart attack. wish you could of looked down his throat, but can't do that now. you have good support here of what to do now. good luck with those young ones.


Actually, he just buried the bird. He could retrieve him and check the throat, and check for weight loss, (prominence of the keel).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

rackerman said:


> Jay3.....I am thinking about bring the mother and babies in the house in a rabbit cage to keep a good eye on them, what do you think? I don't have a vet to check the feces out!


Bringing them in isn't a bad idea.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

rackerman said:


> Jay3.....I am thinking about bring the mother and babies in the house in a rabbit cage to keep a good eye on them, what do you think? I don't have a vet to check the feces out!


That's fine IF mom doesn't have a problem with it ---
I did that once when dad abandoned mom and babies. Mom freaked out about being in a separate (new) cage and wouldn't take care of the babies at all!


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> If you need to hand feed, 10 seeds are not enough for a growing baby. If you need to intervene, you can hand pop defrosted and warmed corn and peas in the amount of 40-50 pieces each feeding and every time the crop empties. I can post you the directions.
> My experience is that other pairs will not feed other couple's babies and often they will attack them.
> You will need to monitor these babies carefully to make sure their crops are full.
> Also...I really doubt the dad had a heart attack. I think something is going on in your loft.
> Sorry conditionfreak. My 23 years has taught me differently.


Charis, can I soften the hard whole corn that I have to feed them? The mother is no feeding them!


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> The bird was found dead. No one said another bird killed him. He could have been pecked was he was down.


oh, i thought he said that the eye was pecked out?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Actually, he just buried the bird. He could retrieve him and check the throat, and check for weight loss, (prominence of the keel).


sure enough, but Im not the one to tell that to.
he seemed upset, so I avoided the go dig his bird back up part.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Rackerman.............If the mother is not feeding the babies you must intervene now!!!

Bring the babies in. Do not attempt to feed them the hard corn. Do you have any Kaytee baby bird formula? If not you can hand feed them defrosted frozen peas and corn as Charis suggested.

Babies can go down vey rapidly if they are not being fed...........You must take immediate action.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

The mom is not feeding them. I just brought them all in the house and my wife just left for the store to get some frozen corn and peas. I have never hand fed babies before, so I hope this works. I am going to leave mom with them in case she wants to start feeding them. This is a real bummer!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It's really easy top hand feed once you get the hang of it. In a short tiem you will be a pro. Personally, I would remove them from mom. If she has lost interest in them [she may be getting ready to lay again] they are vulnerable to being bullied/injured by other birds.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

OK....follow the instructions Charis gave in post #19 of this thread. If you find that this method does not work or is too difficult for you, be prepared to get to Petco/Petsmart and get a syringe and Kaytee baby bird formula.

Once you have fed the babies make sure you do not feed them again until the crop is empty.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Charis is right, feeding them at this age won't be an issue, you will become expert in the first couple of tries itself. Soak the peas in warm water for sometime, it will aid the digestion process.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

As much as I didn't want to, I dug dad up and looked into his mouth, it looked fine and there is no Canker, also the keel seemed normal to me.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

I got the frozen corn and peas, now can i mash them and put them in a baggie, cut the corner and let them eat from it like that? I need to know asap!!


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

You do not need to mash up the corn and peas. Make sure they have been defrosted and lightly warm. Open the babies beak and place one piece at a time into the back of the mouth. Baby should swallow on it's own. Babies need to be fed atleast 30/50 pieces per feeding.

Go back and read Charis's post #19 on this thread.

Good luck.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You can hand feed them, once they are completely defrosted, warm and drained.

Open beak gently with thumb and forefinger and put one piece of corn or pea on the tongue toward the back. Allow the bird to swallow and repeat. Give about 10 to 15 until crop is somewhat full. It gets easier once they are used to you.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

*I just hand fed them corn and peas as Charis said, it was not that easy but I did it. I hope it gets easier! I have them in the house in a rabbit cage with mom. Mom is ignoring them right now, she really looks sad too.....*I'll try to post pics of them a little later.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Really...it will get easy. I'll bet that within a couple more feedings, they will be grabbing the pieces right out of your hand.
It's so cute when they figure it out...you will see a look like...OMGosh, I got it..I can do it!...they tend to over eat so don't let them do that.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> Really...it will get easy. I'll bet that within a couple more feedings, they will be grabbing the pieces right out of your hand.
> It's so cute when they figure it out...you will see a look like...OMGosh, I got it..I can do it!...they tend to over eat so don't let them do that.


Charis, is three times a day good enough to feed them? I believe you have to wait till the crop empties before feeding again or the food spoils, is this right? How full should the crop get, is under feeding better and feed more?


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Rackerman,
Hey  I just read the thread..I'm very sorry for your loss ...he is in a better place now. I know you got started recently and just had your 1st babies [which are adorable by the way] I'm very happy to see that you have gotten help from some of the best here on PT, and it seems you are doing just fine on the hand feeding. 1 of the upsides to this whole tragedy is that, I've found hand feeding develops a very strong bond: Your 1st borns' will probably love/recognize you for life. Everything happens for a reason  
Cant help with the feeding Q, I know that they will 'squeak' no matter how much u feed them. Enjoy this wonderful experience, once again my condolences and good luck. Peace, YaSin


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

YaSin11 said:


> Rackerman,
> Hey  I just read the thread..I'm very sorry for your loss ...he is in a better place now. I know you got started recently and just had your 1st babies [which are adorable by the way] I'm very happy to see that you have gotten help from some of the best here on PT, and it seems you are doing just fine on the hand feeding. 1 of the upsides to this whole tragedy is that, I've found hand feeding develops a very strong bond: Your 1st borns' will probably love/recognize you for life. Everything happens for a reason
> Cant help with the feeding Q, I know that they will 'squeak' no matter how much u feed them. Enjoy this wonderful experience, once again my condolences and good luck. Peace, YaSin


YaSin, thank you, means alot!!


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

*GREAT NEWS...................Mom is feeding them right now...*


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Rackerman
Awesome! I forgot to add that mom will probably still bond with them, but now that she's feeding them, it's all good. You can still hand feed them once a day if you want, helps with the bonding  Thanks for being my friend  Cant wait to see the 'grown up' pics of these babies soon, take care  peace, YaSin.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

*Pic of Mom and babies (Daddy died yesterday)*

I have mom and babies inside the house now. Mom just fed them, so did I about 2hrs. ago. I hope all goes well! Oh, they are in the nest bowl now, they chased her down to feed them!!


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## Frank-NC (Jan 26, 2010)

yes it's gonna be hard for her all alone and the loss of her mate still fresh in her mind. hope all goes well for both of you and the little one.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Frank-NC said:


> yes it's gonna be hard for her all alone and the loss of her mate still fresh in her mind. hope all goes well for both of you and the little one.


Thanks Frank.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Mommy and babies all look good. Please continue to keep a close eye on them and supplement the feeding if needed.


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## JRNY (Nov 17, 2009)

You will be ok. Since there 14 days old. Your half way there. Before you know it there be on there own eating. Good Luck


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It would be great if you would put an old towel underneath the babies...paper towel on top of that if you want. Also...a brick for mom to roost on.
Hard to tell...Is there lots of food and water available for mom?


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## Teh_Man875 (Jan 15, 2010)

Sorry to hear about the dad. I hope the babies do good. I have babies that just turned 16 days today. Do you have any idea what he died of?


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

So far, those babies do look good and fed. Have you tried handfeeding them again ?


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

rackerman said:


> *GREAT NEWS...................Mom is feeding them right now...*


That is cool, I just saw the post with the pictures and was asking you whether you did hand feed again 

Keep an eye becuase feeding to babaies of this age will be a task for her. She should have clean food and drink available round the clock. If the babies still run squeak a lot and run around her they might not be getting fed adequately. So don't drop your plans for hand feeding yet as of now please. Good luck


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

pictures?where? i wanna see the pictures!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

altgirl35 said:


> pictures?where? i wanna see the pictures!


Here you go  http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/need-help-daddy-just-die-44200.html


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Rackerman,
Glad to see the babies doing well  As Charis said, make sure there is something solid on the cage floor for the mom+babies, the wiring tiers there feet. Thanks for the pic  peace, YaSin.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Charis said:


> It would be great if you would put an old towel underneath the babies...paper towel on top of that if you want. Also...a brick for mom to roost on.
> Hard to tell...Is there lots of food and water available for mom?


Yes, there is lots of food, water & grit. I have a nest bowl in there with tobaccoo stems in it too. The babies climb out at feeding time and I put them back in it. Oh, I did put a perch on the side of the cage too.....


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

sreeshs said:


> So far, those babies do look good and fed. Have you tried handfeeding them again ?


Hi Sreesh, I haven't had to hand feed agian, mom's doing a good job...


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

*I want to post pics' of mom and babies in this thread, is there away? They seem to be doing fine!*


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Use the same way you did for the other post....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

rackerman said:


> Hi Sreesh, I haven't had to hand feed agian, mom's doing a good job...


That is a relief, glad you did'nt take her out... you just never know...


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

sreeshs said:


> Use the same way you did for the other post....


cool Sreesh, I'll post a little later today! Thanks......


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