# Crop problems with Freebird



## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hi folks -- 

I have a question regarding Freebird, a young homing pigeon who belongs to another board member (Squeaker). 

Freebird suffered a hawk attack a few months ago -- his injury was fairly extensive, and he was not treated with antibiotics (except topically) following the attack. He recently became visibly ill, and is now in my care temporarily. 

He had visible canker in the mouth and throat, is emaciated, had signs of enteritis (swelling, very watery and foul smelling droppings), and labored breathing. He was very weak. The area around the hawk wound is swollen.

The bird is on Baytril, Metronidazole, and Medistatin, and his overall condition has improved in the past few days ... 

My current question has to do with crop stasis -- he was receiving tube fed formula and some supplemental feeding of seed peas, and his crop is not passing the peas. 

Squeaker brought him back to my house last night, after noticing that the crop was not emptying of the seeds. 

I used a catheter tube and syringe to remove any excess liquid from the crop, and found yeast -- also a strong smell of canker in the crop fluid. I have been flushing with water/acv last night and today, and administered a bit of warm applesauce this morning ... massaging the crop, etc., but to no avail ...the seeds remain undigested. 

I was hoping to avoid 'milking' the seeds out, but I'm thinking that may have to happen. 

The laceration from the hawk wound extended into the crop area -- it appears to be healed externally, but it still makes me nervous. I'm almost certain there was localized infection in the wing joint, and it looks as if there is some under the skin, as well.

Suggestions?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Pls help us! Freebird is a super special bird <3

Ps-please dont think is a horrible owner, just new to injuries and illnesses... well... actually im new to pigeon keeping in general!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How many seeds are remaining in the crop...a few... a lot? Is he on a heating pad? 
You said you gave him some applesauce this morning...how much? Have you flushed the crop since then?
What color is the healed over wound/wounds? Does it feel hard or hot?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Another question...he he pooping at all?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hey, Squeaker! So glad you are here too  Not a terrible owner at ALL! Just a tricky situation, and you're new at all this -- thanks for getting him here last night!!!

Charis -- thank you! 

I'm guessing about 15 to 20 seeds in total, remaining -- they're quite solid and can be moved around easily (not in a clump at all). 

He's passing liquid well, but very little solid waste. The blockage doesn't appear to be in the intestine, but rather the crop. 

He's on a heating pad, with water available, but no food. 

I gave about 10 cc of slightly diluted and warmed applesauce this morning -- I haven't flushed it again since then, but I have massaged the crop. I do think a bit has digested since last night. I'm giving him fluid in the crop. 

The laceration scar is reddish -- not warm to the touch at this point, and doesn't seem to cause him pain when touched. There was an area under the wing (on the joint) that was swollen, but the swelling is decreasing since on the Baytril. 

The visible canker has decreased a great deal since starting the metronidazole.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I did illuminate the crop with a flashlight, and couldn't see any signs of necrotic tissue or masses (except peas) -- there are areas of the crop wall that feel a bit thickened, but that's decreasing every day since beginning the metro. 

He's getting Medistatin in the crop. 

He's passing a lot of clear urine, and his urates are still yellowish. When he was being fed the formula, he was passing mostly solid droppings that were looking increasingly good - the foul smell from his droppings has disappeared almost completely.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Some times it takes about 24 hours to get things moving and it can be very frustrating when you just want to see improvement.
If the pigeon were here and based upon what you have told me, I wouldn't flush the crop again but I would give the pigeon another 5-8 ccs of warmed applesauce and very gently massage the crop every hour or so until you go to bed. If the liquid passes, give more applesauce/water mixture. Hopefully in the morning the crop will be empty. If it's down even half from what it is now, I would give him 8ccs of thin mixture, half formula, half applesauce.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Perfect, Charis - that is just what I wanted to know. I didn't want to manipulate the seeds out forcibly unless I couldn't avoid it. 

I'm worried about withholding food, though, since he is emaciated as it is (very sharp keel bone). He has put on a bit in the last few days. Last night he weighed in at 320 grams -- I'm guessing his healthy weight is over 400. 

I have to be gone for a few hours for work, but my partner is here and can take over monitoring and basic care stuff until I get back (he doesn't do feeding tubes though!) 

Freebird is hydrated right now, and had a little more diluted applesauce. He is definitely a lot more stable than he has been, and is breathing increasingly easily. 

I dissolved a little bit of nutrical into the hydrating solution, too, since he's passing fluids well -- I wanted to get some calories into him at least.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Ive been reading all the replies, but i figure i cant offer you any advice on my own bird, so im just reading and learning lol  quick question though, once the seed is out, now that its happened once, is this likely to be a problem in the future? If it does become a problem and it happens more than a couple times, would he need to be on a liquid diet indefinately?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Squeaker said:


> Ive been reading all the replies, but i figure i cant offer you any advice on my own bird, so im just reading and learning lol  quick question though, once the seed is out, now that its happened once, is this likely to be a problem in the future? If it does become a problem and it happens more than a couple times, would he need to be on a liquid diet indefinately?



Pigeons are prone to canker infections and everyone that keeps pigoens should have two different kinds of canker medicine on hand as it's a good idea to rotate them so the canker does not become resistant to the medications.

He will not need to be on a liquid diet. While I'm not sure, I suspect he had canker and you started hand feeding him, as we suggested. I suspect when you added food to his crop and he already had food in the crop. The canker infection combined with adding new food old food caused the sour crop. Maybe he wasn't warm enough ... sick birds need consistent, direct heat and so the crop kind of shut down. That is a dangerous, life threatening situation for the pigeon.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> Pigeons are prone to canker infections and everyone that keeps pigoens should have two different kinds of canker medicine on hand as it's a good idea to rotate them so the canker does not become resistant to the medications.
> 
> He will not need to be on a liquid diet. While I'm not sure, I suspect he had canker and you started hand feeding him, as we suggested. I suspect when you added food to his crop and he already had food in the crop. The canker infection combined with adding new food old food caused the sour crop. Maybe he wasn't warm enough ... sick birds need consistent, direct heat and so the crop kind of shut down. That is a dangerous, life threatening situation for the pigeon.


Charis- judging by minimonkeys update, would you say hes still in a life threatening situation? And once the canker is gone, will the sour crop be over with too or could it come back even if theres no canker? He has been on a heating pad continuously since friday, so he is staying toasty. On saturday and sunday, the metrodizanol made him throw up, so we cut the dose in half and gave him 3 smaller feedings instead of 2 larger ones, i wonder if thats when it started. Maybe he needed extra time for it to empty?

Minimonkey- if you only feel 15-20 seeds, he must be digesting some. When he was at my house, i would guess he had at least 50 or so. I could have probably counted at least 15-20 just against his skin, then theres the ones behind those ones (hope that made sense, hard to explain). Oh, and the hawk attack happened in august, ive been trying to remember how many months ago it was. I joined the forum a couple days before the attack, so it had to be august. God i cant immagine having a probably very painful infection for like 4 months  could that have anything to do with the bacteria infection or are the 2 completely unrelated?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Squeaker, you are going to have to be patient and give him time. It's going to take a while. He's pretty sick right now. Getting him over this will take time. He probably had canker for a bit. That can cause blockages in the crop. It's easier to cure if caught early. But pigeons are made of pretty tough stock and have amazing healing powers. So try to be patient and give them time. In the meantime, try and read as much as you can about the care and feeding of a pigeon. Learn what to do in times like this, and how to best take care of him. What illnesses are common and what meds and supplies to have on hand just in case. That way you will be prepared, and can use this as a learning experience. Right now he's a sick little bird, and it will take time.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Squeaker said:


> Charis- judging by minimonkeys update, would you say hes still in a life threatening situation? And once the canker is gone, will the sour crop be over with too or could it come back even if theres no canker? He has been on a heating pad continuously since friday, so he is staying toasty. On saturday and sunday, the metrodizanol made him throw up, so we cut the dose in half and gave him 3 smaller feedings instead of 2 larger ones, i wonder if thats when it started. Maybe he needed extra time for it to empty?
> 
> The sour crop is created by having canker and having food added to the crop when the crop isn't empty.
> Metronidazole can make a pigeon vomit ,but so can sour crop and canker and yeast. Even if you gave him smaller feedings and the crop hadn't emptied, that certainly did contribute to his condition now.It's important for you to learn to feel the crop...feel what it's like full and when it's empty so you will know when to feed or not feed.
> ...


 If he does have an infection from the hawk attack, the stress of that could have brought on a canker infection. The hawk attack itself could have brought on a canker infection.
I'm concerned about the lump ...if it's pus. Bird pus is different from the kind of pus we have if we get an infection. Bird pus doesn't ooze. It's hard and lumpy, more the consistency of cottage cheese. If he does have a pus filled lump, he will need to have veterinary care.
I know pigeons don't come with instructions but as you have them, take Jay's advise and learn everything you can about them. I would encourage all new folks to pigeons to do the same.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Im definately doing a crash corse in bird care/medical/injury/feeding/medicine ect. Thats why im bombarding you guys with questions  ... ive learned so much in a short ammount of time. Obviously ive barely scratched the surface, but the things i have learned so far from minimonkey and other members has been super important stuff. Ive definately learned where the crop is now. Aparently, i was feeling just a little too high, but theres no mistaking i know were it is now. And ive been comparing my other birds before and after feeding so i know what its supposed to feel like in a healthy bird. the flock is being treated though just in case. I believe we are treating for cocciodis and canker with rodizinol... i think im wrong on that name but it starts with an "r" and is powder and after that, we will treat them with sulmet.

The wound has gone down in size quite a bit since we started baytril. The wound is right under his wing where it meets the neck/chest area. When comparing the 2 sides, they are getting more and more symmetrical every day, so its definately going down. Minimonkey says the swelling in his abdomen is going down too.

I do understand itll take a while and im up for it. Thats why i was asking if he would have to be on liquid food indefinately.... ive been working on convincing my boyfriend to let him be an indoor only bird, especially when hes thin and sick. Dont let that freak you out, i usually get my way when it comes to our house. He doesnt care what i put in the house, as long as he has his man cave, garage, and workshop... hes happy  hes already sort of accepted that freebird will be indoors, im sure he will squak about it a little when freebird comes back home but 10 minutes later he'll be asking whats for dinner 

These birds came from a horrendously disgusting loft where the owner was feeding babies to his falcon and the poo was no less than 1" and in some places, 2-3". One might think i should have saved myself the trouble and just walked away, but i just couldnt. So im assuming they probably have lots of diseases floating around in their little bodies that just havent flared up yet (well theres freebird, but im talking about the others)

Edit: when hes a bit healthier, should we treat for worms? How common are they and how often should they be treated for it?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hi everyone! 

Squeaker, I am very glad you are following and learning, and asking excellent questions 

I have good news ... the pea count is down to about 8 now, and the poop count was way up. I tubed in some dilute applesauce, and some very, very, very thin formula. I am very much hoping for an empty crop in the morning. 

I'm still pretty concerned about his breathing, which is pretty labored. No open beak, but noisy (whistly) and he's tail bobbing a bit.

I'm thinking the primary problem is the canker -- the visible canker in the mouth and throat have decreased, but I think there's quite a bit in the crop still. The walls of the crop felt very thick when I first saw the bird a few days ago -- they are feeling quite a bit better now.

He's standing more, though, and even got a bit cranky with me tonight (that stopped when we moved from poking and prodding to cuddles.) He wasn't happy about me working with the crop any more -- I think it is a bit sore. I'm being very gentle with it. 

He's fairly alert, on the whole. 

The lump under the wing is definitely decreasing in size -- I suspect it might be synovial fluid (joint fluid) -- more like an arthritic swelling than pus. I hope so, actually -- that often resolves with antibiotics. 

I've got her flock on Ronidazole. We may not need to do the sulmet with them-- this is looking less and less like coccidiosis to me. 

So that's the 2 am update -- I appreciate everyone's input and support!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

To answer the worm question -- yes, I think worming them once everything else is resolved is a good idea. They came from pretty lousy conditions, so worms are a real possibility. The newer wormers are actually pretty safe.

And yes, the abdominal swelling is all but gone now -- so that's a real improvement


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I'm no expert.... but a suggestion (or a question?)... if the pigeon cannot be fed due to sour crop, can you just give him vitamin water (with alternate ACV flush?). The vitamin water will at least, give him the basic nutrients without compromising his bloated crop (and there is no need to digest and work the stomach)

Would that be better than feeding him liquid food? Just a thought...

Here's hoping a speedy recovery for the little fella. Good luck and thank you for all your efforts in helping him!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He really does need to get food into him, and calories, as with the crop problems, he hasn't been getting much. Liquid food would be pretty easy on his system, and won't tax him very much. Mixed with the applesauce will help.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Has the crop cleared, minimonkey?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> I'm no expert.... but a suggestion (or a question?)... if the pigeon cannot be fed due to sour crop, can you just give him vitamin water (with alternate ACV flush?). The vitamin water will at least, give him the basic nutrients without compromising his bloated crop (and there is no need to digest and work the stomach)
> 
> Would that be better than feeding him liquid food? Just a thought...
> 
> Here's hoping a speedy recovery for the little fella. Good luck and thank you for all your efforts in helping him!


What the applesauce does, is change the ph balance in the crop so that the crop starts to empty. The gentle massage helps break things up too and help with the process. It can take a day or a few hours more than that and be very nerve racking for the care giver. I've never had to remove the contents of the crop after implementing this method. 
Once the crop has emptied, I feed very small meals e very time the crop empties starting with a thin applesauce/formula mixture.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> What the applesauce does, is change the ph balance in the crop so that the crop starts to empty. The gentle massage helps break things up too and help with the process. It can take a day or a few hours more than that and be very nerve racking for the care giver. I've never had to remove the contents of the crop after implementing this method.
> Once the crop has emptied, *I feed very small meals e very time the crop empties starting with a thin applesauce/formula mixture*.


This is what I do also,.....I also add a little 'nutrical'


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Ms freebird- HI! I havent met you on this forum yet, but i love the name  do you have a female freebird by any chance? I dont mean to get off track, but i had to say hi lol, my freebird says hi too :-}

Miss sassypants- to answer your question, i think he really needs the extra nutrition. Vitamin water may or may not be easier on his system, but i think not getting some real food would be harder on his system. He got VERY thin due to my lack of knowledge, but he has put on a little weight already. My boyfriend goes out to feed the birds alot, we switch off, he definately cant find a sick bird in a flock, and it took me a little while but eventually i caught it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Squeaker...he doesn't need any food until his crop empties. Really...the applesauce should change the ph balance and get things moving. The applesauce has vitamins in it as well. The crop should resolve very quickly at this point if no more seeds or peas are added until it empties. I would only add a pea sized amount of neutral cal once a day. It is very sweet and it can mess with the ph balance too if given too much.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> Squeaker...he doesn't need any food until his crop empties. Really...the applesauce should change the ph balance and get things moving. The applesauce has vitamins in it as well. The crop should resolve very quickly at this point if no more seeds or peas are added until it empties. I would only add a pea sized amount of neutral cal once a day. It is very sweet and it can mess with the ph balance too if given too much.


Thats what i meant. When it empties, since hes so skinny he needs more than just water, i didnt mean add it while theres still a bunch of gunk in there


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Okay...I understand now.

I did the calculations and the pigeon needs 30-41 calories a day. I based that on the weight he should be rather than the weight he is at now.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> Okay...I understand now.
> 
> I did the calculations and the pigeon needs 30-41 calories a day. I based that on the weight he should be rather than the weight he is at now.


Thank you, im sure minimonkey would know what to do with that info 

Minimonkey- I sure do miss him being here, i came home yesterday looking forward to seeing him, half way home i remembered he was at your house lol, but i know youre taking wonderful care of him. When i brought him over, hearing your birds made me miss his coos, hopefully they rub off and get him cooing again when he feels better :-}


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Squeaker said:


> Thats what i meant. When it empties,* since hes so skinny he needs more than just water*, i didnt mean add it while theres still a bunch of gunk in there


Thinned down formula, apple sauce and a small amount of nutrical will give him nourishment and keep him hydrated. Heat and hydration is most important right now. Your baby is in very good hands.
Nice to meet you too  None of my birds have the name 'freebird'.......I am 'Ms Freebird', meaning... I can do whatever I want!


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## Dove Lady (Apr 15, 2011)

I know apple sauce is a fav for this.... but the addition of PINEAPPLE juice or even pulped pineapple with apple sauce will aid in fast break down of foods.
The enzimes in pineapple (and kiwi) act like stomach acid without the harshness. (that's why you can't make jello desserts with kiwi or pineapple in them)

When you eat way too much.. and feel like you are gonna blow up, many asian cultures recommend eating pineapple or drinking the juice to aid in quicker digestion.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Msfreebird said:


> Thinned down formula, apple sauce and a small amount of nutrical will give him nourishment and keep him hydrated. Heat and hydration is most important right now. Your baby is in very good hands.
> Nice to meet you too  None of my birds have the name 'freebird'.......I am 'Ms Freebird', meaning... I can do whatever I want!


Thats why i named freebird  he got out after less than 48 hours of having him amd spent about 5 days flying from our pecan tree to the house to the barn and roosting in a tree overlooking the loft (cause he didnt know how to get back in yet). I assumed he would be our "resident freebird"

Pineapple seems to make sense, it is an acidic fruit and it definately changes when in the stomach, thats why people who have poo eating dogs put it in their food, it changes as it goes through their bodies and makes the poo unappetizing.

Anyone else ever use pineapple (or kiwi)?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, crop is very nearly clear -- about 4 or 5 peas remain  We're still doing mostly fluid, with dilute applesauce and a tiny bit of formula and nutrical.

I forgot to mention that in the hydrating fluid I've also been adding a digestive enzyme -- it's called Citroenzymix -- you can find the info here:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/vitamins-minerals/1305-citroenzymix

I found this stuff very helpful with one of my birds whose crop tends to be a bit slow. 

Breathing is a bit better this morning, though we have a ways to go on that one.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I noticed that about the nutrical, Charis -- it's very sugary. 

Sugars are somewhat problematic because they can feed yeast growth.

Despite the crop problems, he is putting on weight. I didn't weigh him this morning, but the keel feels less sharp. 

I'm also noticing a small lump developing on the left top eyelid -- it's small right now, about the size of the head of a pin -- and it doesn't really look like pox -- it's white, the same color as the eyelid. 

I think he has a bit of conjunctivitis in that eye (eye infection, common with respiratory problems.) I'm watching it, for now. I do have forma eye drops that I can use -- I like those a lot, but they do stain your bird blue if the fluid runs out of the eye at all  The staining isn't permanent. 

If it looks indicated, I'll start using those.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks to everyone for all the additional info! 

I know you miss him, Squeaker  I look forward to the day I can ask you to come get your stabilized, healthier bird. 

He can hear my guys cooing, and I think he's finding that comforting. He's starting to take an interest in his surroudings -- and he is starting to peck a bit, too -- I had put his Baytril tablet down for a moment to readjust position, and he almost pecked it right up.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Thanks to everyone for all the additional info!
> 
> I know you miss him, Squeaker  I look forward to the day I can ask you to come get your stabilized, healthier bird.
> 
> He can hear my guys cooing, and I think he's finding that comforting. He's starting to take an interest in his surroudings -- and he is starting to peck a bit, too -- I had put his Baytril tablet down for a moment to readjust position, and he almost pecked it right up.


Haha, he sounds like a little pill popper  so glad to hear hes starting to remember what eating is all about.

The little dot on the eyelid was there the day i initially brought him over. I suppose i just passed it off cause my dad has one too, almost in the same spot. Guess i just assumed it had always been there like my dads has. I should have asked about it. If you decide he needs it, stain him up! Lol doesnt bother me a bit especially since it could help.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That dot may be nothing at all -- a little calcium deposit like humans get, etc. Homers tend to have slightly 'lumpy' looking membranes sometimes (the cere, the eyelids)-- but I'm watching it. I think it is a bit bigger than when I first saw him. 

It really may be nothing at all, or something very minor. 

He does have some puffiness in that eye in particular -- this is really common when a bird is having respiratory issues. The eyedrops just help clear the tear ducts, nasal passages, and the sinuses, and they are soothing. 

So, if I give you back a slightly blue pigeon, you won't mind?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's good news!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Nope i dont mind a bit, who knows maybe itll give him a little pizaz! Lol.

If you post a pic or txt one to my phone, i could tell you how much bigger its gotten since the first day i brought him over.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Minimonkey and Squeaker!

You guys have done a great job with Charis's help, well done! Crop stasis is so hair raising, but it sounds like you've got him over the hump with careful hand feeding, Canker meds and Medistatin. I don't have a lot of experience with this, so I mostly just wanted to send my encouragement to you all 

Squeaker, nice to meet you! Its nice to live with pigeons, you'll love it


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Minimonkey and Squeaker!
> 
> You guys have done a great job with Charis's help, well done! Crop stasis is so hair raising, but it sounds like you've got him over the hump with careful hand feeding, Canker meds and Medistatin. I don't have a lot of experience with this, so I mostly just wanted to send my encouragement to you all
> 
> Squeaker, nice to meet you! Its nice to live with pigeons, you'll love it


Nice to meet you, thank you for the encouragement!

I know ill love having him in the house, my boyfriend had a cockatiel who he loved, so i think if given some time he will enjoy freebird being inside too especially since pigeons dont have that ear piercing SCREECH like cockatiels do 

Minimonkey, speaking of him living in the house... i found a nice cage, do you think its too early to buy it? Should i wait till hes a bit more stable or do you think its just a matter of time at this point? It looks brand new and would be perfect as a permanent home. It has 3 different levels with ramps so he can easily move around (kinda like the one you have with the girl and the big fiesty boy, cant remember their names atm). Its only $40 on craigslist, but its not returnable.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Ack. This just got a little more complicated -- 

First, the good news -- there are still a couple of very stubborn peas left, but we are very close to empty now with the crop. I actually thought he was going to vomit them up when I was massaging, but he didn't, so I let it be. It's probably 4 or 5 left -- I think I underestimated the amount a little last night -- hard to tell exactly with the inflamed crop membrane in some places. Droppings are still passing pretty well. He's breathing better, gradually and slowly, there's improvement. 

The crop wall is softening nicely -- it had that firm, crackly feel to it at first, but that is greatly improved -- it's more supple. 

Now, the complicated part. With the crop empty and the inflammation down, I was able to get a much better feel of the entire crop area -- and on the opposite side from the big laceration, feathered over, is another apparent puncture wound, and this one may be a bit of a problem. There's what appears to be a necrotic plug/plug of pus, and I think it may penetrate into the bottom of the crop wall. 

I'll get my roommate to take a picture when she gets home -- 

On the surface, it looks like a small, blackish scab -- with a few feathers sticking out of it, but below the skin is a lump about the size of two peas together, and man is it sore! This bird doesn't flinch at much, but he definitely wanted me nowhere near that thing. 

This may well be part of the crop stasis problem. 

I'll take a picture of it, and then clean it well and put some coconut oil on it to soften the skin and the scab and see if I can get a better handle on what it might be. I'm fairly sure it was a puncture wound from the hawk attack, but I can't quite tell what's up with it now -- whether it's superficial, or whether perhaps trich has grown through it from the crop... or what. 

The wing joint swelling is better every day , though -- and that's a good thing.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Squeaker, do you have pictures of him right after the attack?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, I am determined to have him home and safe with you, so you'll definitely be needing a cage.

If you do buy a used cage, disinfect the living heck out of it!

Those are nice cages -- they're usually marketed as cat cages or sugar glider cages, and they're about the right size for a single bird or a mated pair.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Eep! Thats not good! Hes really throwing everything hes got your way isnt he! I cant believe he would have lived this long with these complications if the hawk attack happened like 4 months ago. The scab where the big wound was took quite a while to go away and when it first scabbed up, it was about the size of half a green grape, cut long ways, but just as rounded and big. A few days after it happened, my vet just took the scab off and threw it in the yard  it had some white tissue under it. It scabbed up quite a few times, he said to gently take it off from time to time to let it air out. It was concaved for quite a while too. I dont know if this info helps at all... probably not for the other side that youre worried about but its what info i do remember from the side with the gapeing wound.

If it is pus, what would that mean? More antibiotics? Surgery? Worse....?

The cage was used for a ferret about a year ago, and it will be disinfected from top to bottom, probably with a mild bleach solution then rinsed clean.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

PLEASE EXCUSE THE BIRD MITES!!!! this is right after i got him and the guys loft was disgusting 

these are all the pictures i have, they dont show quite how bad it was. the 4th picture down is the worst side. under the feathers close to his neck was where the hole was. that yellow stuff, i dont know what that was but it was dry, not slimy or wet at all, almost like dried on formula. the other side with the blood looked more like a superficial wound, it didnt look too bad (well, compared to the other side at least). id immagine the hawk probably was sick when he attacked him. if he tried to get him and missed and didnt go back to get him... i mean he would have been an easy meal at that point, he couldnt fly at all.

edit: his wing did not droop like this before the attack. it drooped directly after, and it still hangs a little unsymmetrically, bu


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, he's hot mess of complications  

It is rather astounding that he healed up as well as he did, and that a lot more problems haven't shown up before now. 

Get the cage and disinfect it, and then disinfect it again before he comes home... he IS coming home 

This isn't serious, really -- it's not unusual for this to happen with predator attacks, especially if they aren't treated with antibiotics. I was amazed there weren't more of these. I think it's just a localized skin infection -- and honestly, if it were somewhere else on the body, I'd just soften it up, and clean out the infected tissue without a second thought. 

The problem with this one is that I think it might penetrate into the crop wall, which makes it a little more complicated. 

It also might be a canker growth that has come through from the inside, or canker has gotten through the skin because of the wound. 

In any event, it can be fixed, and probably without even needing a vet visit to do it. 

I think there's some stricturing in the crop too, around the big scar. What I mean by that is that the crop wall and the outer skin of the bird seem to have healed together in places, rather than separately (as they would normally be) -- and so the crop is a bit constricted in places -- there's a bit of a pouch under the scar. I think that's part of why you didn't notice the peas that were building up.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Just now saw the pictures -- thanks for uploading those!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Just now saw the pictures -- thanks for uploading those!


edit: the info about it, i got mixed up when looking at the pix... if it helps, the info has been changed


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Yeah, he's hot mess of complications
> 
> It is rather astounding that he healed up as well as he did, and that a lot more problems haven't shown up before now.
> 
> ...


hes a fighter, what can i say. definately a cool bird  im sorry hes being so difficult for you but youre doing such an amazing job with him! i bet hes literally sucking up ALL of your free time but we are both so grateful youre willing to care for him so well.

do you think the yellow stuff on the outside of the wound could have been something inside the crop that leaked out? like canker or yeast (not sure what they look like when theyre in the crop)... but maybe he had these issues even way back then? i asked the vet what it was and he basically said, "im not sure what the heck that is" he was a little rushed when he came over that day and he was already helping me with my kitty cat for free who caught some wierd and rare disease from my rose bushes and i sorta sprang it on him as he was leaving. the country life sure can be hard on animals


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Their skin can scab over with a yellow crust like that -- It looks strange, but it's pretty normal -- I think it's white blood cells and protein for the most part. I do think that deep part, at the top, punctured the crop when the attack happened, and that is where I think some stricturing might have occurred.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I do have good news, folks -- with the exception of 1 or 2 really stubborn peas, we had an EMPTY crop! So, I took some pictures, and then fed him with some more dilute formula, etc. I will feed every time the crop empties for the next few days -- I'm actually working from home through the weekend, so I will be able to do that. 

I am going to attempt to upload these pics now ... no idea if I have the technological skill to make that happen, lol...


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Here are two of the big scar and the underneath of the wing -- I wet the area down so you can see the scar.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Here's the part that has me worried.

It doesn't look too bad, but there's a plug under the scab.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The big scar actually looks good -- the joint swelling has gone down a lot. It's the small black area that has me a bit concerned -- there's a bit of a mass under it, and it's sore. 

And yes, that IS the top of the keel bone ... if you can can believe it, this is an improvement from a few days ago.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> The big scar actually looks good -- the joint swelling has gone down a lot. It's the small black area that has me a bit concerned -- there's a bit of a mass under it, and it's sore.
> 
> And yes, that IS the top of the keel bone ... if you can can believe it, this is an improvement from a few days ago.


Aww, my poor little guy. Btw, he had a little blackish scab dot on the other side a couple days ago, it wasnt stuck on there super hard or anything, looked like it was ready to come off, so i sloughed it off, thought id mention it incase it needs to be checked out.

I can tell hes gained some weight, his keel bone felt a bit less sharp when i took him back for his "vacation" 

Do you think those feathers will ever grow back?

Its good to see his cute little face :-} he really is a gorgeous bird when hes healthy. Hes one of my 2 best looking birds... again, thats when hes healthy lol. They may all be white, but their faces and beak shapes are all slightly different. My boyfriends bird "arnie" is the ugliest i think lol but hes such a goof i think it gives him character. Unfortunately theyre all HEAVILY imbred so i think arnie just got dealt a bad hand in the gene pool XD but his personality totally makes up for it, i could pick him out of a crowd of peobably 100 or so pure white birds based on his personality and goofy looks haha


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, well, well... somebody's feeling a LOT better! He's pooping like a champ now, and getting feisty  He wasn't much interested in standing still on the table at all just now-- wanting to explore, instead. 

His crop is emptying very well, and quickly, too. He just got a tube of slightly thicker formula, still with a bit of applesauce, a drop of enzyme, and a little bit of a supplement called avi-gain, which is a weight gain supplement for birds. It's a bit like Nutrical, but specifically for birds... though it, too, is a but sugary. 

He'll get at least one more little meal with night time meds, if his crop is empty again, which I think it will be.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That area I'm concerned about does lead into the crop wall -- I could tell with the crop fuller. It's really sore --- he doesn't protest about much, so something is going on with it. 

The problem with these little black scabs is that sometimes they can cover up what are called "tracking abscesses." This essentially means a little channel of infection/pus that can run very deep. 

Was the scab you were talking about -- the one you sloughed off -- up above the swollen wing joint? I noticed it was gone, and it looks totally healed under it -- there's a little tiny pit there, if that is the scab you mean. 

I rubbed coconut oil on both the big scar and the little black area -- I swear by coconut oil for so many things! I'm hoping maybe the skin plug, under the black scab, will begin to work its own way out -- and will heal from the inside as it goes. 

I doubt the big scar will ever re-feather very much, but it will be a lot less noticeable when he is back to his normal weight and his feathers are fuller all around.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Also -- right now, Freebird's crop is very small, compared to most bird's his size. I think this is a result of two things -- first, the canker and yeast can cause the crop walls to become thick and not very supple -- that will improve as the canker areas heal -- and you can continue to massage the crop gently to help it regain its suppleness. 

Also, I am almost certain there's an area of the crop that is attached to the outer skin, where the scar is. This does mean that he's a bit more likely to have crop problems than your average pigeon, so you'll want to keep an eye on that. He should be able to eat normal food, etc., but you'll want to monitor him to make sure problems aren't developing. 

He'll be getting liquids only for a few days, for sure, over here. The formula will do him good, and hopefully get some weight back on him.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Well, well, well... somebody's feeling a LOT better! He's pooping like a champ now, and getting feisty  He wasn't much interested in standing still on the table at all just now-- wanting to explore, instead.
> 
> His crop is emptying very well, and quickly, too. He just got a tube of slightly thicker formula, still with a bit of applesauce, a drop of enzyme, and a little bit of a supplement called avi-gain, which is a weight gain supplement for birds. It's a bit like Nutrical, but specifically for birds... though it, too, is a but sugary.
> 
> He'll get at least one more little meal with night time meds, if his crop is empty again, which I think it will be.


YAY FREEBIRD!!!! What a beast lol hes so tough, its only been 5 days and hes bouncing back wonderfully! Are those last few seeds completely out of the crop yet? 

Like i said a few days ago, you really are the pigeon whisperer  Im not sure how youd feel about this, but if you feel he might start getting interested in flying at any point, feel free to put one of those little black hair rubber bands on a few of his flight feathers (the little ones used for tying the end of a braid or pony tailing the bangs of a yorkie), i figure it would be easier than trying to get him off the top of your a.c. unit should he decide he REALLY wants to explore. I wont clip a birds wings but if he starts gettin squirly, a temporary rubberband wont hurt him a bit and would discourage him from flying too high or far. I know he couldnt fly before, but he is feeling better, getting stronger and that wound is going down in size, so who knows. Just thought id throw it out there. I know some people are probably rolling their eyes right now but your ceilings are TALL and he probably wont come to the feeding call i do since hes not feeding himself right now. He used to sit at their look out spot and wait for me to come home at dinner time and he would be one of the first ones at the feeder when he heard my whistle


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Also -- right now, Freebird's crop is very small, compared to most bird's his size. I think this is a result of two things -- first, the canker and yeast can cause the crop walls to become thick and not very supple -- that will improve as the canker areas heal -- and you can continue to massage the crop gently to help it regain its suppleness.
> 
> Also, I am almost certain there's an area of the crop that is attached to the outer skin, where the scar is. This does mean that he's a bit more likely to have crop problems than your average pigeon, so you'll want to keep an eye on that. He should be able to eat normal food, etc., but you'll want to monitor him to make sure problems aren't developing.
> 
> He'll be getting liquids only for a few days, for sure, over here. The formula will do him good, and hopefully get some weight back on him.


*gahhh!* i just hit the wrong button and deleted everything i typed, how annoying lol.

Aaannnyyyy way..... when i come to pick him up, do you think you could you show me where the bad spots are in his crop, what thick crop walls feel like, what his crop should feel like when its "comfortably" full, what his small crop feels like compared to one of your birds with a normal sized crop ect. Basically anything you can think of to teach me about crops since ill have to monitor it, i wanna make sure i dont miss a thing, should a problem arise.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, I will absolutely do that -- and I wish I had explained a lot more when you were here the very first time about how to feel the fullness of the crop in a general sense. 

It's only after spending some real time feeding him and watching his crop function that I realized some of these problems -- and actually, it's probably a good thing that I ended up spending so much time with his crop, and discovered the small black area, because that might have gotten a lot worse over time. 

I feel like we've really turned a corner! He's like a different bird these past few hours -- yesterday he would barely move from lying on the heating pad, and tonight he was standing, and now he's perching on his water bowl, pooping in it  He's very curious about what's going on around him, now, and he comes over to greet me when I go to the cage. 

I'm going to put a smaller bowl of water in there for him to drink, and just leave the large bowl empty as a perch and a toilet 

I won't let him fly off and get lost in our place, I promise  

I think once you get him back, it would be good to work with him regarding flying -- he has a lot of mobility in the wing, so there's no real reason that he won't be able to fly, once we get that joint inflammation down and his strength back. I can show you a few techniques for encouraging him to start using the wing more.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> That area I'm concerned about does lead into the crop wall -- I could tell with the crop fuller. It's really sore --- he doesn't protest about much, so something is going on with it.
> 
> The problem with these little black scabs is that sometimes they can cover up what are called "tracking abscesses." This essentially means a little channel of infection/pus that can run very deep.
> 
> ...


I dont remember exactly where it was, but yes it left a little pit, so im thinking youre looking at the right spot. Glad it looks good there. Would the baytril help at all with the other side of the wing with the little pocket of possible infection? I didnt even notice that spot, must have been covered with feathers pretty well.

Would it be a bad thing to remove the scab thats still there to see what it looks like or to let out any gunk that may be in there? What does the coconut oil used for on a wound?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Yes, I will absolutely do that -- and I wish I had explained a lot more when you were here the very first time about how to feel the fullness of the crop in a general sense.
> 
> It's only after spending some real time feeding him and watching his crop function that I realized some of these problems -- and actually, it's probably a good thing that I ended up spending so much time with his crop, and discovered the small black area, because that might have gotten a lot worse over time.
> 
> ...


Comming to greet you and pooing in his water bowl... yep... hes commin back around to his old self lol. Hes always been one of the 3 birds that i always see perching (and pooping) on some bowls that i keep empty in the loft. They prefer to perch there instead of their fancy perches that we drove like an hour and a half to go pick up lol. I keep the bowls in there pretty much because they like it, theyre attatched to the wire hardware cloth look out spot. He always waits for me to come home there. I know its because hes begging for food, but id like to think he misses me 

Im so happy to hear all of this! Im glad you got to spend some "quality time" with his crop too, now if he has crop problems in the future i wont be as likely to panic and hopefully ill be better prepared to deal with it and he wont need a full blown rehab.

The part where the crop has grown into the skin, is that the area, when he was REALLY full, that you could feel the seeds under what felt like a super thin layer of skin on the side where the big wound was? i noticed it was alot thinner there, but after hearing about the crop walls being thickened, i wasnt sure if it was that or if that was just an area of good crop.

Edit: if hes going to be an indoor caged bird, whats the reason for teaching him to fly really well? I absolutely dont mind doing it, especially if he needs it to feel 100% better, im just more curious than anything.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I would have missed this scab and mass, too, if I hadn't been massaging the crop so much, and looking for any damaged areas. It was invisible under the feathers. 

The Baytril might well help kill off any active infection in that area -- we're hoping so. The thing about bird pus is, as Charis explained, it isn't like human pus. It's sort of cheezy, and can actually become quite solid after a time .. really like a rock. 

If this were on any other area of the body, I'd do exactly what you're suggesting -- remove the scab, and pull out the plug of debris -- but with this one, I think it goes clear through into the crop, so it might leave a hole in the crop if I did that. 

I'm going to soften the area up with coconut oil, and see if maybe it'll start emerging on its own, healing as it goes. I may well pull off the scab once the area is softer, and let the debris emerge. 

Coconut oil is great -- it is antibacterial, antifungal, antiviral, edible (by birds, too) and it is great for softening up scar tissue. I swear by the stuff.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, that's the area I'm talking about -- I think the seeds got caught there because there's a sort of pouch where the crop membrane and the outside skin are adhered together. They really should be separate membranes and able to move separately. 

And OMG, he really IS feeling better -- he decided he needed a bath in his water bowl, lol! He's preening -- and his tail is much less drooped, too.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I would have missed this scab and mass, too, if I hadn't been massaging the crop so much, and looking for any damaged areas. It was invisible under the feathers.
> 
> The Baytril might well help kill off any active infection in that area -- we're hoping so. The thing about bird pus is, as Charis explained, it isn't like human pus. It's sort of cheezy, and can actually become quite solid after a time .. really like a rock.
> 
> ...


Aaahhhh, i see... that does sound like it could be a problem. Ill definately keep coconut oil in mind, maybe ill pick some up just to have it on hand. It sounds like miricle juice, i wonder if it would do anything for sore muscles. Sean is doubled over in pain right now with a messed up back. In any case, it might be good as massage oil, which im having to do quite a few times throughout the day for him.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Yes, that's the area I'm talking about -- I think the seeds got caught there because there's a sort of pouch where the crop membrane and the outside skin are adhered together. They really should be separate membranes and able to move separately.
> 
> And OMG, he really IS feeling better -- he decided he needed a bath in his water bowl, lol! He's preening -- and his tail is much less drooped, too.


Haha awesome    i love watching my birds take a bath, its so adoreable. I love watching them get water on their wings then stretch it out, lean to one side and let it drip into their armpit lol (for lack of better term, i call it an armpit). The dirty little birdy sure could use a bath he was laying in his poo for like 4 days :-} Hes probably like "aaahhhh, finally!"

It sounds like getting that junk out of his crop really did the trick for him. Hes been rapidly improving ever since


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

He'll be happier if he can fly, at least somewhat. I'm glad he'll be in indoor housing, but he'd still enjoy a flap around the room when he can have one. 

Oh, and tell your boyfriend -- if he has any problem with Freebird indoors, that Minimonkey is going to come and redecorate his man cave with pink lace and care bears


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, coconut oil is great massage oil, and it is actually anti inflammatory, too -- so it does help sore muscles. I'm sorry about your bf's back -- that's no fun at all.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> He'll be happier if he can fly, at least somewhat. I'm glad he'll be in indoor housing, but he'd still enjoy a flap around the room when he can have one.
> 
> Oh, and tell your boyfriend -- if he has any problem with Freebird indoors, that Minimonkey is going to come and redecorate his man cave with pink lace and care bears


Baahhahahaha hey, theres nothing wrong with care bears  my room was carebear themed when i was a kid and care bear is my nick name from my family.... i hope he does fuss, so you can come decorate the man cave for him, it would look better than all that football crap :-}

Im kicking myself for throwing away the applewood tree branch perch i made for his cockatiel. It was a really nice one. I sanded off all the bark with a palm sander, then i put it on a platform where you can line it with paper towels for easy poo clean up, then i put it on wheels. I suppose i could make another one but it took so long to make! Lol


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Ack -- good news, bad news this afternoon. 

Good news, that plug is starting to emerge already -- it's protruding from the skin noticeably more than last night. He's also hungry -- was pecking up little drops of formula that had dripped on the paper towel. Also, his breathing continues to improve. 

Bad news is that we aren't getting the canker under control with the metronidazole -- he actually has new growth in the throat and on the roof of the mouth  

The canker strains in this area are freaky resistant to metronidazole I've found, so I am going to add in another canker med in addition to it. It's called carnidazole, and I've found it good with the resistant canker that I've run across around here before. 

Who knows what the previous owner did in terms of treatment -- he might have been one of those guys who used meds without thinking much about it, and that can also lead to resistant strains. 

I don't think Freebird is feeling as good as he was yesterday -- he's lower energy and a bit puffed up. 

I'm glad he's here -- I have an arsenal of meds, so we can switch it up as necessary. 

There are still about two peas in the crop that aren't passing, too. I may just remove those by 'milking' them out, and I also might flush the crop again. I'd rather not have to do that, but it did help tremendously the first time -- it's just unpleasant for the bird -- not painful, but unpleasant. 

I'll keep you updated. This is turning out to be a little tricker than it seemed at first -- but I still feel really confident that we can get a full recovery.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Omg, what a roller coaster. I can almost 100% gaurantee he never treated his birds with any meds. Also "he thinks" he has about 80 birds in a 6x6' shed. they come and go as they please, so theres not always that many and im sure some roost outside and only come home for food.

Glad to hear the plug is comming out, thats good news


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, this is a roller coaster for sure. 

It's actually helpful to know he probably wasn't medicated before -- this is just resistant canker, then. It's not unusual to run into this, and I do think the crop injury is complicating matters. 

That plug is a lot bigger than it looks -- I can already see about twice as much of the black scab material as I could yesterday. 

Oh, and for your reference -- Trader Joe's sells coconut oil that I really like. It's nearly solid at room temperature -- kind of the consistency of lard -- but it melts if you warm it up. For massage, you just warm it with your hands and it turns to liquid.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Yeah, this is a roller coaster for sure.
> 
> It's actually helpful to know he probably wasn't medicated before -- this is just resistant canker, then. It's not unusual to run into this, and I do think the crop injury is complicating matters.
> 
> ...


Glad that plug is working its way outta there. I love trader joes, ill pick some up next time i go there


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What dose of metronidazole are you giving him?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm giving 45 mgs ... 3/4 of a 60 mg tablet. He's still hovering around 320 grams right now.

I haven't had great luck with metro for canker, unless it's really mild. Far and away, I've found spartrix to be the most effective drug for the canker I come across. 

I was thinking about dropping to 30 mgs of metro, and adding half a spartrix -- or just switching to spartrix altogether.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was also considering using a spartrix paste on the necrotic plug if it looks to be trich -- I figure it won't hurt if it is some other type of infection.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have better luck with the Metronidazole. I wouldn't cut the Metronidazole dose, but would just give that in the morning and a whole spartrix in the afternoon or evening.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I wouldn't cut the metronidazole dose but rather give 50mg in the morning and a full spartrix at night. Combining the two has been very successful.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Sounds good to me. I'll go with metro at 50 in the morning, and a whole spartrix in the evening. 

Thank you for the input! 

Any thoughts on this necrotic plug? He just about jumps out of his skin every time I get near it -- it's clearly very sore. the coconut oil is softening it up, and I am cleaning the area with Vetericyn.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Crop is finally clear, and emptying well. Poops are looking pretty good -- solid, no odor, but yellow urates. Still very green in color, though -- that dark bile green. I'm very gradually increasing the thickness of the formula.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

What does necrotic mean and what is trich?

Yay! Clear crop


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Crop is finally clear, and emptying well. Poops are looking pretty good -- solid, no odor, but yellow urates. Still very green in color, though -- that dark bile green. I'm very gradually increasing the thickness of the formula.


So many questions  ..... i know green and yellow poo isnt right, but what does green and yellow indicate?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Such excellent questions, too 

Trich is short for trichomoniasis, which is the name for the protozoa that causes canker. 

Necrotic tissue is dead tissue -- the thing about pigeons' bodies is that they can't break down dying tissue and flush it away, the way humans and other mammals generally can -- so dead tissue needs to find a way out of the body, through the skin. A necrotic plug is one that has dead tissue on the top of it, but generally has some sort of live infection behind it. 

Green poops can mean a lot of different things -- but this color green -- which is a very vivid, dark green, means that there is a lot of bile in it (pigeon's bile is a bright, deep turquoise/green color). Starvation is one of the main causes of this kind of dropping, and I think that is what's going on here, because he wasn't able to digest adequately for a bit -- 

This color of dropping is also a symptom of paratyphoid -- but I think in this case it is more from lack of nutrition. It should clear up once I am able to feed thicker formula again for a while. If it doesn't, then we'll need to ponder a little more. 

Yellow urates are a sign of a burden on the liver (a lot of different things can cause that)-- but they are very, very often present with canker. I'm almost positive that once the canker really starts to clear, the urates will turn white again.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Such excellent questions, too
> 
> Trich is short for trichomoniasis, which is the name for the protozoa that causes canker.
> 
> ...


Funny thats what i was thinking trich and dead tissue was, mustve read it somewhere.

Sounds like if we can get the canker under control, alot of things should go back to normal *fingers crossed*


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, that is our primary battle right now -- that, and getting this darn plug out and healed. 

He has perked up again a bit this evening --he can hear my birds, and he's very curious about that.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

minimonkey said:


> Sounds good to me. I'll go with metro at 50 in the morning, and a whole spartrix in the evening.
> 
> Thank you for the input!
> 
> *Any thoughts on this necrotic plug*? He just about jumps out of his skin every time I get near it -- it's clearly very sore. the coconut oil is softening it up, and I am cleaning the area with Vetericyn.


I would leave it alone and give him a chance to rest. Do you have metacam?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The metacam I have is expired, and I don't think I should use it. 

Are there any other anti-inflammatories/pain meds that are bird safe? 

I'm actually going to ask my human doctor for a prescription for meloxicam when I next have an appointment, but for now, I don't have any on hand...

All in all he is definitely feeling better -- he flapped at the side of the cage just now when I went to feed him (flapping toward me, not away). He really is a very tame little guy -- he comes into my hands of his own accord. 

His crop is emptying fine with the formula, and the droppings are starting to return to a more normal color.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I put the coconut oil around that area again, and he didn't jump or protest nearly as much as before, so I think it must be feeling a bit better. That one feather with the yellowed follicle came out over night on its own, too (or he picked it out) , and the follicle looks to be healing.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I put the coconut oil around that area again, and he didn't jump or protest nearly as much as before, so I think it must be feeling a bit better. That one feather with the yellowed follicle came out over night on its own, too (or he picked it out) , and the follicle looks to be healing.


Thats great! You have so many useful tricks up your sleeve, im amazed


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

As of this evening, every time I walk by, Freebird comes over to the side of the cage and tries to get my attention - flapping, etc. He's definitely on the upswing again.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> As of this evening, every time I walk by, Freebird comes over to the side of the cage and tries to get my attention - flapping, etc. He's definitely on the upswing again.


Haha cute. Sometimes he flaps his wings and sorta walks around on his tip toes in a circle.

Im going tomorrow to pick up his new snazzy cage. Hes gonna go in my big bay window right behind my couch in the living room so he will get tons of attention. Im hoping that eventually ill be able to just open up the cage and let him hop down onto my lap while i watch tv.... hes fairly social, i think it could happen. The bay window is about 2 1/2 feet deep, double pane and has blinds that stay closed 90% of the time (cause of the tv glare). And ill probably blanket his cage at night like we did for seans cockatiel. So i really dont think there would be any reason to worry about drafts or anything.

I let sean know that freebird will be staying indoors.... i didnt say for how long, i just said "for a while" lol. He didnt seem to mind. Im lucky i found such an easy going guy. As long as i keep him happy with food and places where he can get away and go be a man... hes fine with almost anything :-}


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That sounds like a great set up! You can even set up a heat pad in there for if he does get cold -- my immune compromised ones get a heat pad all winter long, and it really helps them (we don't have heat, and this place gets pretty cold with the high ceilings.) 

I went in for our last feeding tonight, and he got excited seeing me, and then when he saw the tube in my hand, he went bonkers with excitement ... flapping up and down, climbing up the cage side, lol! I've seen the babies do this with syringes, but this is the first time I've ever seen it in an adult bird. 

He's loving the cuddles right now -- protests when I put him back into the cage, wants to be clingy and sit on my lap. I think you'll have no problem having him as a TV buddy!

Oh, and where do you get the poopy pads that you sent along? You've seriously converted me to those things! I want a huge case of them.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

His droppings are looking much better -- much more normal color and more solid, too. I did a thicker formula feeding tonight, so let's hope for an empty crop in the morning. I'm wary of anything resembling solid food at the moment.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> That sounds like a great set up! You can even set up a heat pad in there for if he does get cold -- my immune compromised ones get a heat pad all winter long, and it really helps them (we don't have heat, and this place gets pretty cold with the high ceilings.)
> 
> I went in for our last feeding tonight, and he got excited seeing me, and then when he saw the tube in my hand, he went bonkers with excitement ... flapping up and down, climbing up the cage side, lol! I've seen the babies do this with syringes, but this is the first time I've ever seen it in an adult bird.
> 
> ...


Awww, what a little cuddle muffin hahaha thats sweet. When he was with me, he didnt go nuts, but he would perk up when he would see me setting up, but im sure he goes crazy now that he feels better.

Theres times where i may have to use a heating pad too, i have normal ceilings, i just hate paying to use the heater when a blanket works just as well lol.

The potty pads make keeping a sick birds cage stay super clean with minimal effort  they come from costco. Its $15 for 100. If you dont have a costco card, i can pick some up, im right down the street from costco. Theyre much cheaper there than a pet store (they usually have them in stock). Im actually so glad that they work for this purpose, ive had those things stacked in my linnen closet forever. I got them when i first got my dog cause i was going to potty pad train her, then i decided not to.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would add a little applesauce with the formula, maybe every other feeding for a while, just to be sure. Wouldn't hurt.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> I would add a little applesauce with the formula, maybe every other feeding for a while, just to be sure. Wouldn't hurt.


I would too.
I would offer seed tomorrow and see if he will eat on his own. The crop has emptied and you've been treating for canker,bacteria and yeast long enough for improvement and for him to tolerate seed if he will it up on his own.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> I would add a little applesauce with the formula, maybe every other feeding for a while, just to be sure. Wouldn't hurt.


Sounds like some good precautionary advice 

@ everyone- thankyou to everyone who has helped and offered such wonderful advice for freebirds recovery. I honestly thought this was going to be a losing battle with him until minimonkey and everyone else whose helped came along.

Freebird would be a gonner if it werent for you guys, thats what this forum is all about.... soooo...... THANK YOU!!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

minimonkey said:


> The metacam I have is expired, and I don't think I should use it.
> 
> Are there any other anti-inflammatories/pain meds that are bird safe?
> 
> ...


The metacam is probably fine. The manufacturer is required to put an expiration date on the container.
There isn't any other, over the counter anti-inflammatory meds that are safe.

You can get metacam here.

http://www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/p-253-metacam-32ml-meloxicam.aspx


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> The metacam is probably fine. The manufacturer is required to put an expiration date on the container.
> There isn't any other, over the counter anti-inflammatory meds that are safe.


Dr. Russum, my neighbor vet gave me some expired meds for my kitty one time. They were quite a few months expired. He said he could not sell them to anyone but he could give them to me for free. it was like $300 for the meds and they were still perfectly fine. So i agree, medicine is good for quite a while after it expires. Ive always been told it just loses its potentcy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There have been studies done on meds to see how long they were good after the exp. date, and most tablets and powders were good well over 10 years later. Some by then, were maybe at about 80% or so. But liquid meds are different, and aren't good for as long after expiration.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

The one i was given was a liquid and it was about 5 months expired and it was okay... still did the trick


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not really that much past the expiration. I'm sure it was still good.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I get alot of expired meds at work free. The Dr. told me the same thing......that they are still good but cannot be sold once expired.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks so much for the link to the metacam! I have been looking for a source for that!

No, mine isn't a little expired... it's almost 2 years expired! It's been sitting in my fridge since an emergency visit.2-plus years ago. It's a suspension, so I figured I should probably just throw it out.

For everyone's reference -- some meds do become toxic after they expire -- doxycycline (any of the cyclines) are the main ones that do that. The rest of them mostly just lose potency. 

Meds that are just a little expired, for the most part, are probably fine.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I didn't think there were any other pain meds that were safe, but thought I would ask, in case I was missing something. 

Crop was beautifully empty this morning, and Freebird was a hungry little guy, very excited to see the feeding setup. 

There's still visible canker in the mouth -- I added the spartrix yesterday along with the metronidazole, as suggested. Crop feels much better -- much more supple, and the 'comfortably full' capacity is increasing. 

His droppings are still bile-green. 

That plug is still emerging a bit and the size of the mass behind it seems to have decreased -- so it probably had an active canker lesion on the other side, I'm guessing. 

I'm going to see if I can gently snip it free from the feathers to which it is attached (sterile cuticle scissors) and relieve a bit of the discomfort that way, in any event. 

And OMG, yes, Squeaker, if you could pick me up a box of poopy pads, I'd be forever grateful. We don't have a costco card at the moment.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, and yes, I've been adding a bit of applesauce to the formula each time.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That isn't an issue anymore, changes in manufacturing techniques has changed that.
Medical evidence supports that tetracycline, past it’s expiration date–*especially in the form of doxycycline–is as safe as any other expired antibiotic.*

http://tracemypreps.com/2011/11/02/expired-or-not-expired-that-is-the-question/


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for that link, Jay -- I guess old cautions die hard, eh? 

I'm still going to buy some new metacam -- but the one I have said (on the carton) that it expired 01/11 ... what do you think... chuck it, or is it safe to use, if just somewhat ineffective? 

Also, does anyone know the shelf life of liquid baytril? I have some that I've never opened, but it was packaged by AllBirdProduct, and they buy bulk and repackage. They gave an expiration date of next year .. but that seems like an awfully long shelf life to me. It has been refrigerated the whole time since I got it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

As far as the liquid baytril, I have been told and also read that as long as it's clear and not crystalized, that it's okay, but don't know.
Here is another link from the Harvard Medical School Health Guide
http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update1103a.shtml


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks much, Jay.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

What is a good worming medicine? I figure ill treat him for worms when i get him back and treat my flock too while im at it.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I didn't think there were any other pain meds that were safe, but thought I would ask, in case I was missing something.
> 
> Crop was beautifully empty this morning, and Freebird was a hungry little guy, very excited to see the feeding setup.
> 
> ...


Lol, sure ill pick some up. And if you need to buy some new stuff, whatever the metacam costs (or any other meds you had to buy) just let me know and ill buy it. Maybe we can split the meds so i can start to build a birdy medicine cabinet.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'd totally be up for splitting the cost of a few meds -- often the only size available is far more than I'll ever need. 

I didn't really have to buy anything specifically for Freebird, but these are all things I like to have on hand, since I do bring in rescues fairly often.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I would have restocked the metacam a long time ago if I had known where to get it for a reasonable price and without a prescription. So grateful for the link!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I'd totally be up for splitting the cost of a few meds -- often the only size available is far more than I'll ever need.
> 
> I didn't really have to buy anything specifically for Freebird, but these are all things I like to have on hand, since I do bring in rescues fairly often.


Pm me with a list of what you need to buy for him and whatever meds freebird has already used and ill buy them and/or pay you back for them. And whatever meds you buy and feel like youd have extra of, id like to buy some of those too to have them on hand. Especially some of the ones we have been using like baytril since it seems to help quite a few things. I could probably afford about $150 at most right now to build my med cabinet.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Will do -- but really, don't stress repayment --- do what's comfortable for you. 

I'm just glad to see him feeling better and recovering.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Will do -- but really, don't stress repayment --- do what's comfortable for you.
> 
> I'm just glad to see him feeling better and recovering.


Well im sure this little guy has used quite a bit of your meds. Id at least like to pay you whatever he has used and buy whatever else he needs that you dont currently have. You do amazing work rescueing these birds and rehabilitating them, im sure thats by no means cheap so i definately dont want you to spend any of your money. That way you can help other birds like freebird


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks  If you get me a giant box of poopy pads, that is more than enough payback for any meds he's used. I'm totally game for splitting a meds purchase with you, though ... it makes a lot of sense to do it that way. And I can stock you up on a few other things, too.

To answer your question ... the worming medication I use is called Moxidectin Plus -- it's very safe and it gets pretty much every worm or blood sucking parasite that pigeons can get (it works against mites and pigeon flies, not just worms.) 

About Freebird, I am really beginning to think that he is a she -- so we may need to adjust our language a little bit  That's nice, actually -- hens often bond very deeply to their humans, and can be really affectionate. I got preened tonight during feeding and meds time.

I also got part of that necrotic plug out tonight -- all the stuff above the skin came off easily once I clipped the feathers free of it, and there is definitely a hard plug extending into the crop area. I just cleaned that, and let it be for now, and I cleaned out some feather debris from a few inflamed follicles around both scars. 

I'll upload pics in the morning -- I did get some.

On the whole, Freebird is feeling much better. The canker in the mouth definitely looks better tonight, and the crop is feeling better every day -- more supple, less thickened, etc. Poops are still pretty yucky -- but the breathing problems are almost entirely gone.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

*Oops duplicate post*


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Thanks  If you get me a giant box of poopy pads, that is more than enough payback for any meds he's used. I'm totally game for splitting a meds purchase with you, though ... it makes a lot of sense to do it that way. And I can stock you up on a few other things, too.
> 
> To answer your question ... the worming medication I use is called Moxidectin Plus -- it's very safe and it gets pretty much every worm or blood sucking parasite that pigeons can get (it works against mites and pigeon flies, not just worms.)
> 
> ...


Ok this will be hard to reset my brain cause freebird has always been a he to me but im glad sssssshhhhhheeeeee is feeling better lol. Ive actually always sorta suspected it cause she doesnt display any male behavior like our other known cock, "arnie" does and a few others. I do agree with you though.

Glad youre seeing progress with the canker. About the plug, what happens if it doesnt come out on its own?..... then what?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I've had to go through that brain-reset a few times with birds -- it's an adjustment. At least Freebird is a gender neutral name! She's doing this thing that tame hens do sometimes -- sticking her beak between my fingers and shaking her head ... it's like billing with a mate, except with my hand instead. 

The plug needs to come out for her to really heal fully, so if I can't get it to work itself out, I'll remove it as gently as I can. If it's canker on the inside, as I suspect it might be, it may start drying up from the inside out as the canker heals. 

We'll give it a few more days of gentle coaxing, and see if that does the trick.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, lawdy, it is always good news/bad news with this bird 

We had a nice solid poop today, finally  .... and... what looks like a tapeworm segment.  That would certainly explain some of the weight loss. 

Breathing is much, much better though, and the food is passing through without any problems at all. The canker in the mouth also looks much better. 

The mass feels a little smaller in depth, but it is clearly a pretty large necrotic piece under the skin.

And...my goodness, this is the sweetest bird ever. She kept sticking her beak between my fingers, and preening my hand. (That's why I think she's a hen.) 

We've got quite a ways to go to health, yet, but every day there's some improvement. 

I hate the worm thing... I don't want to worm her until she's stronger and well on the mend, but if the worms are bad enough, then she won't get well without getting rid of them. I'll keep an eye on the poops (don't I always  ) and if I see much more evidence of worms, I'll bump worming up on the priority list.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Does that mean i should treat my flock like pronto since theyre healthy?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It's probably not a bad idea to go ahead and worm them now, before any problems start. I can worm Freebird here. 

Siegels is out of stock on the moxidectin plus -- that's where I usually buy it -- but if you search around a bit you can probably find some online somewhere.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

freebirds new cage and nest box, if she decides she wants to use it  i have to order one more ramp and one more platform though, but no biggie, theyre cheap. i hope she will be happy in it! got it for a steal, $40 and it looks brand new, minus the 2 missing pieces.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

aww, didnt realize the pic was so blurry... sorry :/

Edit: and please excuse the mess, im in the process of trying to find new places for all my picture frames and little fish tank now that freebird will be taking over


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That's a nice set up -- smaller than the rather ginormous ones I have, but I am sure much easier to find a place for, since you don't have nearly as much space as I do to have cages sitting around. I think you'll actually be better off with just the two perches, so she has room to flap her wings. 

I think she'll be very happy in that, so long as she gets lots of snuggle time outside of it. Your birdie is a serious attention hound! She jumps and flaps for attention every time I walk by -- and she's doing it with Chuck and my roommate Kendra, too. Tonight she was doing it when her crop was still pretty full, so it was clearly not hunger. She was very happy when I took her out for meds and snuggles, and she kicked up a fuss when I put her back. There's no mistaking what this bird does, and doesn't, like. 

She'll need a sun lamp (not heat, just light), since she won't be getting outdoor sun. Even sun through a window isn't sufficient to provide the UV rays that they need to see well, and to make vitamin D. You can put an avian UV bulb in a regular lamp, or get one of the special reflective lamps, which I actually like quite a bit. Either way will work, though, so long as the light can shine in from above her cage. 

I've had her cage partially covered up while she's been so sick, but now that she is clearly feeling a lot better, she's getting a sun lamp for the rest of her stay here. I bought an extra one just for rehab birds who will be staying a while....


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think that is the exact same cage my roommate had when she first got her chinchilla, now that I look at it  She eventually bought him a huge chinchilla mansion, but he's one of the world's most spoiled rodents, so I guess it had to happen, lol.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Wow well done Minimonkey!

She sounds like a real cutey! Its reassuring for me to hear how she began to look forward to tube feeding. Pigeons can be so forgiving! I captured and vaccinated my two favourite wild ferals today..afterwards they disappeared, and I thought `oh no, they don't like me anymore and I don't blame them ' But then within the hour they were back, following me about the yard, acting as entitled & friendly as ever.

Not wanting to get off topic though. It just strikes me that this bird your caring for is so lovely and loving, considering how much handling she's had  Its great what you've done for her.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. Nice to see you making a lovely setup for her Squeaker! I agree with Minimonkey about the cage. I have a guinea pig cage with some ramps, and my rescues didn't like them.They prefer just one nice flat perch and enough space to flap up there. And of course they need UV light and some time out of the enclosure, which I'm sure you were thinking of doing anyway.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, this one is a heart-stealer, for sure. They don't really seem to mind the tube feeding -- I think they rather quickly come to associate it with feeling better. Hazmat actually started opening his beak for the tube, and Freebird has done that a couple of times, as well. 

This bird is incredibly tolerant of all the poking and prodding, except when I move the plug wrong, which makes her squirm. She's going to feel a whole lot better once I get that thing out of there. 

I do a lot of clucking and cooing at my own birds, so I was cooing to Freebird tonight. She just looked at me, like "seriously, you're kidding, right, lady?" Clearly I need to work on my pronunciation.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Giggle, How cool you can cluck and coo! I can't do that


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> That's a nice set up -- smaller than the rather ginormous ones I have, but I am sure much easier to find a place for, since you don't have nearly as much space as I do to have cages sitting around. I think you'll actually be better off with just the two perches, so she has room to flap her wings.
> 
> I think she'll be very happy in that, so long as she gets lots of snuggle time outside of it. Your birdie is a serious attention hound! She jumps and flaps for attention every time I walk by -- and she's doing it with Chuck and my roommate Kendra, too. Tonight she was doing it when her crop was still pretty full, so it was clearly not hunger. She was very happy when I took her out for meds and snuggles, and she kicked up a fuss when I put her back. There's no mistaking what this bird does, and doesn't, like.
> 
> ...


Ohhhh, thats right yours went all the way down to the floor. What are the dimensions (approximately). This one definately has a bigger foot print than the hospital cage and its quite a bit taller. Im sure ill buy a giant one one day but this is what i could afford for now (and what i could manage to get in the house without protest from the hunny) 
But she will definately get quite a bit of lap time, im a huge cuddler with my animals, so im sure i can accomodate her :-}


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

But my REAL plan is to close off that window for her  so a mansion is in the works, the window is a pretty big window, 8'x4'x2'... but first things first, cause he would have to be attatched to freebird enough to want to build something onto the house.... in time, in time. Eventually, even though double paned, we would probably seal the windows up (its a handy thing to love a dry waller haha). And i cant immagine it being too much of a problem for now cause my other birds are healthy, and theyre outside.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

With the cage bottom, you'll have fewer seeds flying around. What are the measurements of the cage?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> With the cage bottom, you'll have fewer seeds flying around. What are the measurements of the cage?


The cage is 2'x3'x3'


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Minimonkey- i found moxidectin plus, but its for horses......... is that what im looking for? Is it just a small dose? If not, is there a specific bird moxidectin plus?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> That's a nice set up -- smaller than the rather ginormous ones I have, but I am sure much easier to find a place for, since you don't have nearly as much space as I do to have cages sitting around. I think you'll actually be better off with just the two perches, so she has room to flap her wings.
> 
> I think she'll be very happy in that, so long as she gets lots of snuggle time outside of it. Your birdie is a serious attention hound! She jumps and flaps for attention every time I walk by -- and she's doing it with Chuck and my roommate Kendra, too. Tonight she was doing it when her crop was still pretty full, so it was clearly not hunger. She was very happy when I took her out for meds and snuggles, and she kicked up a fuss when I put her back. There's no mistaking what this bird does, and doesn't, like.
> 
> ...


I adjusted the platforms so that theyre more evenly spaced to give her the most flapping room and the ramps are gone.

If i got some really strong magnets if there would be no way she could move or swallow them, could they be used to magnet the potty pads to the platforms? Im all about making life easier when it comes to caring for my pets, so if i could cover those platforms without worrying about them falling off, that would be best. Id like to be able to remove every bit of poo with as little effort as possible  and then i can spray the whole thing down to disenfect it.

How many hours per day should her sun lamp be on? Since its directly over my couch, it would be glareing in my eyes. Can it be put on a timer and be on from say 6am to 5 or 6pm? So she gets most of her sun while im not using the couch. If it needs to be on longer, ill suck it up lol, just not sure how long it needs to be on for her. And do other birds (like cockatiels) need sun lamps too? Ive never seen anyone with one and i know we didnt have one for Arnie. Are pigeons different because theyre outdoor birds and cockatiels are more domesticated and accustomed to indoor life?

Edit: its getting easier to call her a HER  my mind is still stuck on her being a him, but its getting easier to say it lol. Sounds like she has a very femine personality though, so im sure when she comes back home, itll solidify it


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

A few hours of sunlamp a day is fine -- If you leave it on during the day, and then turn it off in the evening, that's great. They can be put on a timer, if that's easier -- I just switch mine on and off. Really, any indoor bird should have one, though many people don't provide them, -- but without them the birds can't make vitamin D, and even with supplementation, tend to get deficient in it. Without enough vitamin D, they can't use calcium properly. I underestimated the necessity of sun lamps until recently -- and when I got them, it was clear that the birds really like them!

I'm sure you can find a way to stick the potty pads down -- magnets could work, I think. I don't see any reason not to try it, in any event. I generally just use a scraper on the perches and then swipe with a disinfectant, and the poop comes up easily.

I offered a bowl of small-sized seeds today --(dove mix) -- figuring that was a good way to ease her back into solid food (and I could suction them out if need be). She's been munching on them on and off, and the crop seems to be emptying okay -- so that's encouraging. I'm still tubing in a bit of dissolved nutri cal, and nystatin. 

She's still not feeling well, though there's definitely improvement -- we have a ways to go, yet. She's standing or perching rather than lying down, which is great, but she's still pretty puffed up and low energy. Breathing has returned almost to normal 

Her crop is feeling better all around -- I think there was just a tremendous lot of canker in there. I know she'll feel better once we get that plug loose -- I'll give it a few more days of the same routine, and see where we get with that. I'd like her health as stable as possible before I go monkeying around with that thing.

I think worming may also help a lot. 

So, that is today's update. She sure is an affectionate little gal -- I got my hand well preened this afternoon.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think it'll be a lot easier to get used to her being a hen once she's home -- she's a pretty girly girl, personality wise, as you say.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> A few hours of sunlamp a day is fine -- If you leave it on during the day, and then turn it off in the evening, that's great. They can be put on a timer, if that's easier -- I just switch mine on and off. Really, any indoor bird should have one, though many people don't provide them, -- but without them the birds can't make vitamin D, and even with supplementation, tend to get deficient in it. Without enough vitamin D, they can't use calcium properly. I underestimated the necessity of sun lamps until recently -- and when I got them, it was clear that the birds really like them!
> 
> I'm sure you can find a way to stick the potty pads down -- magnets could work, I think. I don't see any reason not to try it, in any event. I generally just use a scraper on the perches and then swipe with a disinfectant, and the poop comes up easily.
> 
> ...


At least shes not leaning so far forward with her butt in the air and beak on the ground like she was the day i brought her back for round two. I seriously thought she was done that day. At that point, puffing up was the least of her worries  and eating on her own was the last thing on her mind. Youre doing wonderful things for her, and it sounds like shes starting to thank you, in her own little lovey-dovey ways


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was also afraid we might lose her, that night when he crop wasn't emptying -- I'm very relieved to be well past that stage of things! 

The little preening and loving gestures are just heartbreakingly sweet -- after all the poking and prodding, it's amazing she wants anything to do with me at all!

I imagine the moxidectin plus for horses is probably the same stuff, just in much higher doses. I get the kind made for pigeons -- it's water soluble, so it can be dosed in the flock's drinking water.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I was also afraid we might lose her, that night when he crop wasn't emptying -- I'm very relieved to be well past that stage of things!
> 
> The little preening and loving gestures are just heartbreakingly sweet -- after all the poking and prodding, it's amazing she wants anything to do with me at all!
> 
> I imagine the moxidectin plus for horses is probably the same stuff, just in much higher doses. I get the kind made for pigeons -- it's water soluble, so it can be dosed in the flock's drinking water.


"Heartbreakingly sweet" --- awww that made me smile 

Okay ill look for the avian stuff. I was looking on ebay and they had a whole bunch for horses, so i assumed that was the stuff to use. I always try ebay first cause shipping is usually free and prices are usually reasonable. Im a self proclaimed ebay junkie 

Could you please pm me with a list of medicine necessities, the ones youve found to be most effective for common illnesses (and a quick explination of what itll treat). I figure ill be making an order anyway with the moxidectin so i should probably pick up the basics.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Freebird is getting reasonably small amounts of seeds at one time (and small seeds at that) -- so she doesn't gorge on them and impact the crop again -- when birds start eating again, they do sometimes have a tendency to gorge a bit. 

I just walked by, and she cocked her head at me, looked at the bowl, looked at me again.... like, hey, my bowl is getting empty... you gonna fill it, or what?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Freebird is getting reasonably small amounts of seeds at one time (and small seeds at that) -- so she doesn't gorge on them and impact the crop again -- when birds start eating again, they do sometimes have a tendency to gorge a bit.
> 
> I just walked by, and she cocked her head at me, looked at the bowl, looked at me again.... like, hey, my bowl is getting empty... you gonna fill it, or what?


Emaciated dogs tend to do that too, they have to be eased back to a normal ammount as to not shock their systems. Thats how my chihuahua was when i got her, her bones were quite literally just a coat hanger for her skin. She was only about 4lbs, now shes a healthy 9 (shes a mix, so 9 is about right for her).


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

So how is she tonight minimonkey? Still a little puffed? I always look forward to hearing all the cute little things she does  it sounds like her personality is really starting to blossom with your help!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

She's doing better every day -- standing on one leg now, which is always a really good sign. A week ago she wasn't standing at all! We're still battling canker, but that's to be expected -- it takes a while sometimes, and the canker in this area tends to be resistant. She's only puffed up after meals now, and I think that is because her throat and crop are still sore - she's clearly struggling a bit still with swallowing. 

Her eyes are much brighter, poops are solid, and the crop is emptying. It's still a bit slow to empty (again, that's the canker) but it is emptying reliably.

She was eating seeds out of my hand tonight, and lots more nuzzling too.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Just another update -- poops looking MUCH better today -- overall there is a lot of improvement! She still has that canker smell about her, so there's a bit of a ways to go there, but daily she gets better and better.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Fantastic work minimonkey! Its such a relief when the poops start to look normal again isn't it?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Fantastic work minimonkey! Its such a relief when the poops start to look normal again isn't it?


Yep, minimonkey is a gem! Im so glad she found the thread i originally posted! Im so excited to get my little cuddle junkie back


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Awww you guys are so sweet!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Squeaker said:


> Yep, *minimonkey is a gem!* Im so glad she found the thread i originally posted! Im so excited to get my little cuddle junkie back


You have no idea how lucky you are that minimonkey was near by. Had she not been, I don't think your Freebird would be alive.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> You have no idea how lucky you are that minimonkey was near by. Had she not been, I don't think your Freebird would be alive.


..... yeah, im well aware. Thank you.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, I'm feeling like the lucky one right now, because I have the sweetest bird in the world in my care temporarily. Freebird was all love and wing twitches this evening, chasing after my hand for more beak-kisses. 

She's definitely on the mend, and feeling better and better. Keel is less sharp every day -- breast muscles are coming back, and she showed a little interest in trying to fly this evening -- at least some wing flapping and jumping. 

I'll get a weight in the morning, but I know there's been a reasonably good gain. 

We're still battling the canker, but the urates are a lot less yellow now. I'm still tubing in a bit of nutrical/formula and fluids once a day, but she is eating on her own, too. 

Poops are solid now 

I'm very glad it worked out the way it did, and that I could help --- and I'm excited to get this lovely bird home and healthy


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Well, I'm feeling like the lucky one right now, because I have the sweetest bird in the world in my care temporarily. Freebird was all love and wing twitches this evening, chasing after my hand for more beak-kisses.
> 
> She's definitely on the mend, and feeling better and better. Keel is less sharp every day -- breast muscles are coming back, and she showed a little interest in trying to fly this evening -- at least some wing flapping and jumping.
> 
> ...


Im so glad you could help too! If she didnt make it, it would have been such a waste of a sweet bird. Thats so cute that she chases your hand and does all those lovey dovey things, she must think your her mate already 

Im thinking we might have to try that 3rd canker med huh? When it comes in the mail, ill send it directly your way so youll have it if you decide its needed. 

She used to do the wing flapping and jumping alot, she would do this thing where she would be flying but she would still walk on the ground on her tippy toes. I assumed it was because she couldnt fly and it was just her wishful thinking.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think you're right about the toe walking -- babies do that when they are first learning to fly. Hazmat does that a lot, and he also can't fly, but he seems to enjoy the toe walking. 

Yeah, go ahead and send the Ronsec when you get it -- we might well need it. 

Freebird really is such an amazingly brave little bird -- so trusting, sweet, and loving after all she's been through -- truly a wonderful little being.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I think you're right about the toe walking -- babies do that when they are first learning to fly. Hazmat does that a lot, and he also can't fly, but he seems to enjoy the toe walking.
> 
> Yeah, go ahead and send the Ronsec when you get it -- we might well need it.
> 
> Freebird really is such an amazingly brave little bird -- so trusting, sweet, and loving after all she's been through -- truly a wonderful little being.


Ill send it and the other meds we are going to share as soon as they arrive, which is hopefully soon


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Minimonkey- tell freebird hi and give her some cuddles for me. Glad shes being such a good patient.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'll give Freebird big snuggles for you! 

I'm not seeing as much improvement in her overall condition as I'd like at this point. She certainly isn't getting any worse, but she does seem to have plateaued out a bit in terms of recovering. 

I am really thinking perhaps worms are part of the problem - she's still doing the tail bobbing, and heaving a bit, which could be solely from the canker, but we should be seeing more improvement I think if that is all that is going on. 

I might just run with my gut feeling on this one and worm her -- the Moxidectin is as safe a wormer as one can find, and even sick birds tend to tolerate it very well. If there's a significant worm problem, it could make a huge difference to get rid of them. 

I also plan to do a little work on that plug this weekend and see if I can get it to start dislodging a bit -- that can't be helping matters any, and once I know what's in there, I'll have a better idea what else might be going on that needs addressing.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Minimonkey!

Worming is usually something I treat later as well. I had a hen last year with quite bad canker, and after the canker treatment was successful, I felt she wasn't as well I would have expected either. I wormed her with moxidectin, but she was still `not quite right'. Then i saw the tape worm piece in her droppings and I wormed her with a levimisole/praziquantel combo. 

She pooped out so many worms, ropes and ropes of them. Afterwards (1-2 days approx) she picked up became like a normal bird.

SO I agree the worming is worth a shot, now that she's stable.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, I thought I saw a tape worm segment a few days ago, which is exactly why I am thinking I'll go ahead and worm. Thanks for seconding that opinion - much appreciated! I hate worming when a bird is still low energy, but if worms are the problem, then that's a bit of a bind. 

I use the moxidectin plus, which has praziquantel added for tape worms. My birds all tolerate it extremely well. 

There's a lot going on with this bird. The canker smell has decreased a lot, but there's still canker visible in the throat, so we aren't out of the water yet in the canker department at all. 

She also has a scabby patch on her lower back, right where the tail starts, that she's been picking at -- I almost wonder if there's an old injury there too. I can't see anything much now, but there is some superficial scabbing, and it seems sore to the touch.

I am going to go over every millimeter of this bird with a penlight tomorrow, and make sure I am not missing some other hidden wound!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Yeah, I thought I saw a tape worm segment a few days ago, which is exactly why I am thinking I'll go ahead and worm. Thanks for seconding that opinion - much appreciated! I hate worming when a bird is still low energy, but if worms are the problem, then that's a bit of a bind.
> 
> I use the moxidectin plus, which has praziquantel added for tape worms. My birds all tolerate it extremely well.
> 
> ...


Hopefully worming and losening the plug will put some of her ailments to bed. Poor thing  do you need me to send some of the moxidectin plus too?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Hey Minimonkey!
> 
> Worming is usually something I treat later as well. I had a hen last year with quite bad canker, and after the canker treatment was successful, I felt she wasn't as well I would have expected either. I wormed her with moxidectin, but she was still `not quite right'. Then i saw the tape worm piece in her droppings and I wormed her with a levimisole/praziquantel combo.
> 
> ...


As minimoneky said, thank you for the second opinion. I feel more hopeful knowing it helped so much with your birdie


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm okay on the moxidectin plus, but thanks for the offer! I am going to give a dose of wormer this afternoon, and then I can watch her carefully to make sure she's doing ok. 

I'm half expecting to see the same thing Bella saw -- multiple worms. 

We'll see -- I'll keep you up to date on this.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey mini And Squeaker! Great to hear from you guys

Yeah, with worming, sometimes you see the tangled ropes of them coming out, like I did. But I suspect it all depends on the age of the worms, and the type. Sometimes I worm a very sick bird, and it results in a dramatic improvement. But I don't always see worms in the droppings. My take on that was they were hairworms or baby worms. Not sure though...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm behind on my reading, so forgive me if I missed alot 
Whenever I have an adult bird going light, the First thing I do is bring it inside and give it a dose of pyrantal. 90% of the time, they pass a clump of roundworms, then their back up and normal in a day or 2. Even though I worm my loft 4 times a year, I dose them in their drinking water. Some of them won't drink the water with meds in it. So that's why I worm them individually first when going light.
Many years ago I read that "it is nearly impossible to clear a loft of roundworms, therefore it is important to routinely worm the birds", so that is what I do.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Msfreebird said:


> I'm behind on my reading, so forgive me if I missed alot
> Whenever I have an adult bird going light, the First thing I do is bring it inside and give it a dose of pyrantal. 90% of the time, they pass a clump of roundworms, then their back up and normal in a day or 2. Even though I worm my loft 4 times a year, I dose them in their drinking water. Some of them won't drink the water with meds in it. So that's why I worm them individually first when going light.
> Many years ago I read that "it is nearly impossible to clear a loft of roundworms, therefore it is important to routinely worm the birds", so that is what I do.


*newbie question*
What does "going light" mean? Losing weight? Please excuse me, im still learning the lingo lol.

I hope we will se an improvement with her, and my other birds when i worm them too  they all are healthy looking and active and they cuss me out in bird talk when i go into the loft lol. Im sure they all have worms if she does.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I'm behind on my reading, so forgive me if I missed alot
> Whenever I have an adult bird going light, the First thing I do is bring it inside and give it a dose of pyrantal. 90% of the time, they pass a clump of roundworms, then their back up and normal in a day or 2. Even though I worm my loft 4 times a year, I dose them in their drinking water. Some of them won't drink the water with meds in it. So that's why I worm them individually first when going light.
> Many years ago I read that "it is nearly impossible to clear a loft of roundworms, therefore it is important to routinely worm the birds", so that is what I do.


Hi Waynette! Its good to hear that can work as well. 

Its such a tough call with worming very sick birds- if the worms are bringing them down, they need to be wormed. But if they are regurgitating and sick with other things like canker, injuries etc, the wormer can kill them. 

I believe Squeaker's bird has tapeworms , canker, problems with regurgitation, and various injuries, so I personally believe Minimonkey did everything just right.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Waynette! Its good to hear that can work as well.
> 
> Its such a tough call with worming very sick birds- if the worms are bringing them down, they need to be wormed. But if they are regurgitating and sick with other things like canker, injuries etc, the wormer can kill them.
> 
> I believe Squeaker's bird has tapeworms , canker, problems with regurgitation, and various injuries, so I personally believe Minimonkey did everything just right.


Shes great, i think she is doing everything just right too! 

Oh, i bought freebird a nest today, ill post pix to see if yall think its something a hen would like. Its made of straw and designed for chinchillas, but it seemed like something a pigeon could enjoy... if not i might take it back cause it wasnt cheap lol


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I found another tapeworm segment today, so it left me no choice but to worm. This time there was no doubt in my mind about it being a worm segment, so I had to do it. 

Moxidectin Plus is as safe as wormers get -- but there's still always a risk -- even if the wormer itself is safe, the die off from worms can be toxic. 

Her labored breathing is back, and I am very concerned about it. It doesn't appear respiratory in origin, but more likely something in the abdomen or crop .. there's no rasping or rattling at all, but lots of heaving and a slightly open beak. I'm inclined to think most of it is the canker. 

We've done more than two weeks of the Baytril, so I think I am going to switch antibiotics in case there's a bacterial component we're missing. I was considering Doxy/Tylan, since that's another big, broad sweeper and it hits a lot of the things that Baytril doesn't. In particular, it hits staph -- and is pretty good on mycoplasma as well. 

I'm open to suggestions though -- I have other meds on hand. 

This canker is resistant as heck -- I did a really thorough look in the throat just now with a pen light, and there's even canker growth in the top of the airway ... . This poor little girl is so brave and sweet ... I can't stand to see her in distress. 

I'm totally open to suggestons if there's a better med switch for me to make --


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, and yes, going light is just a way of saying losing weight. Worms are one cause of that happening, for sure. I usually wait to worm when I know there are other problems going on, unless I have a very good reason to think there are worms in the mix.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I found another tapeworm segment today, so it left me no choice but to worm. This time there was no doubt in my mind about it being a worm segment, so I had to do it.
> 
> Moxidectin Plus is as safe as wormers get -- but there's still always a risk -- even if the wormer itself is safe, the die off from worms can be toxic.
> 
> ...


I hope she gets better  i have my fingers crossed for her


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

We're not nearly out of options yet, don't worry. I have seen much sicker birds come back fully before, so we are going to keep trying until we figure out everything that's wrong. 

I think switching to a different class of antibiotics might be a good idea. We don't know what kind of bacterial infection might be lurking under that plug. 

I took a pen light and illuminated her crop skin, which allows you to see through it to some degree, and the plug is pretty big -- definitely big enough to be causing problems on its own. (She's oddly afraid of the pen light.)

I'm going to start her on Doxycycline/Tylosin tonight -- I think the Baytril has taken us as far as it is likely to take us at this point. Doxy is effective against a lot of bacteria that Baytril doesn't treat, so it seems a logical next step. If there's a bacterial infection present, it'll make the canker a lot harder to eliminate. Canker-causing protozoa actually feed on the waste products created by bacteria.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> We're not nearly out of options yet, don't worry. I have seen much sicker birds come back fully before, so we are going to keep trying until we figure out everything that's wrong.
> 
> I think switching to a different class of antibiotics might be a good idea. We don't know what kind of bacterial infection might be lurking under that plug.
> 
> ...


about the pen light.... maybe she can see different colors that are in the pen light that we cant see. if she doesnt like it more than most birds, maybe she just has really good vision and it bothers her more. i found this on wikkipedia....

"Birds, unlike humans but like fish, amphibians and reptiles, have four types of colour receptors in the eye. These give birds the ability to perceive not only the visible range but also the ultraviolet part of the spectrum, and other adaptations allow for the detection of polarised light or magnetic fields. Birds have proportionally more light receptors in the retina than mammals, and more nerve connections between the photoreceptors and the brain."
(there was more, i just didnt want to copy and paste the whole article)


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

do u think a pigeon would like this nest? if not to sleep in, it can be hung on the cage wall vertically and stuffed with pine needles and such to make it not so deep.... if she would use it, i think its kinda neat. its definately big enough to crawl in if she wanted to


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

She might well like that nest -- birds often do like contained nest boxes, and that isn't much different. It's worth a try. 

As for the pen light --it's odd... she was fine with the flashlight, but I just got the penlight, and that freaks her out -- maybe it does have to do with the color spectrum.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I just saw the weirdest thing happen ... Freebird was standing, and she moved her head a bit like she was going to clear her throat... and then settled back down. Then, without her moving her body at all, a big lump moved across her throat like something was moving INSIDE it!

I sent Charis a p.m. to ask if this could be gape worm (a type of worm that gets in the trachea of birds) and she confirmed that it could, indeed, be gape worm. It was one of the freakiest things I've ever seen.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I just saw the weirdest thing happen ... Freebird was standing, and she moved her head a bit like she was going to clear her throat... and then settled back down. Then, without her moving her body at all, a big lump moved across her throat like something was moving INSIDE it!
> 
> I sent Charis a p.m. to ask if this could be gape worm (a type of worm that gets in the trachea of birds) and she confirmed that it could, indeed, be gape worm. It was one of the freakiest things I've ever seen.


OMG! Thank you for being so attentive and keeping such a close eye on things like that. It does sound freaky. Please tell me its no more of a big deal than tape worms and that the moxidectin kills those too 

Btw, how much of these ailments do you think could be from the original loft i got them from 4-5 months ago (the disgusting 1-3" poo covered un-medicated loft) and how much do you think could be from the hawk and how much could be things ive done wrong? I cant immagine i could be careing for them so terribly that she got ALL of this stuff from MY loft. We do our best to keep the loft and food/water clean and fresh.

Honestly, the more and more stuff that comes up with her, the more and more im feeling like im not doing things right. But on the other hand, i know where she (and the others) came from and what happened with the hawk, so logically its hard to believe its all my fault.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I've actually never seen gape worm before, but I gather its reasonably common. Like any worm infestation, it can be serious if untreated. Gapeworm is one of the more serious ones because it can interfere with breathing, but the moxidectin should kill it. 

She was breathing really heavily earlier, which had me worried, and that is when I saw the alien creature in her throat.....! I'm guessing the worms were dying off, and writhing around...? Her breathing seems a lot better now. 

Didn't you say that the original owner let the birds come and go as they pleased? Birds who are able to wander free pick up worms easily and often. Judging by the amount of lice on Freebird in that first picture you posted (right after you got her), my guess is that the worms have probably been there since before you got her, too. 

I think the majority of these problems are from the hawk attack, and its after effects. She probably picked up a bacterial infection from the hawk attack, and her immune system kept it in check for quite a while, but at a point, the immune system was overwhelmed. Canker just tends to come with the territory when there's a bacterial infection present. The protozoa literally feed on bacterial waste products, in addition to taking advantage of a compromised immune system. 

The fact that only this bird is showing symptoms tells me that this isn't a problem with your general loft maintenance, but rather something unusual to this bird. 

Also, even people with the most immaculate lofts have sickness get in the loft sometimes. I really doubt you are doing anything that led to this situation -- though I am glad you are asking those questions, in case there is something that needs improving. I wish more people would ask those questions, regularly. 


It's actually astounding to me that she didn't go down with an infection a lot sooner than this -- predator attacks almost always come along with some nasty bacteria. 

We'll worm your birds, and you're treating them for canker now. I know you ordered vitamins, which is also a good thing for general health, and probiotics. 

At some point we can do an analysis of your birds' droppings, and decide if it makes sense to treat for coccidiosis.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was doing some reading about gape worm ... it is harbored primarily by earthworms, apparently, and some insects carry it. Apparently it can get serious pretty quickly. 

In any event, if that is what it is, we'll probably see it pass out in her droppings ...


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Well, that does put me a bit at ease, so thank you.

And yes, his birds come and go amd he throws the seed on the ground where other birds can come eat from it too.

I got the moxidectin plus today and put it in their water, i also got the baytril and medicine bottles, just waiting on the other things to come in. I already treated them with the powder medicine you gave me about 2 weeks ago (i cant remember the name of it at the moment). Is there another canker med you were thinking of?

One of my birds has bigger eyes than the rest, like more pinkish tan colored eyelid skin (outside eyelids, not inner eyelid)... if that makes sense. Theyre not buggy or swollen, it just looks like theres more skin around the eyes. Theyve been that way since the day i got him, is it something i should be worried about? Its seans bird.... well theyre all our birds, but we have our 2 favorites. He seems healthy eats well and is of good weight, he just has funky eyes. I dont think its a one eye cold, cause both eyes look odd. Ive always assumed it was just from poor breeding because theyre all extremely imbred, but all this freebird talk has me wondering about them. Hes absolutely not a train wreck like freebird, but those eyes have me thinking now.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I was doing some reading about gape worm ... it is harbored primarily by earthworms, apparently, and some insects carry it. Apparently it can get serious pretty quickly.
> 
> In any event, if that is what it is, we'll probably see it pass out in her droppings ...


Thats odd, i just read earthworms and snails too (probably at the same time u were lol), but ive never seen any earthworms or snails in the loft  and ive never really seen any of my birds excessively do that gapeing yawn or cough. Well, whatever it is and wherever they got it, hopefully moxidectin will be the magical cure for those disgusting little worms


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Mini! That movement you saw is really freaky..how large would you say the moving object/worm would have been? 

Regarding gape worms, I learned last year from treating native birds with gape worm that there are two types. The one you read about more often is the large red worm type that bonds in pairs. 

The other is Spirulina worm, which forms white cysts throughout the GI and respiratory tracts. The white cysts have eggs and baby worms in them, white in colour. This is the type I have more experience with treating. Actually, these cysts can look a bit like canker, depending how they cluster. Its worth a thought anyway.

With spirulina worms, moxidectin is the recommended treatment. So you've done your best with it! We can only hope that the die off is not too intense..if worms are the problem. SO far, I've cleared up all the Spirulina worm infestations I've encounterd, and some of the birds with it couldn't walk or fly when i took them in. So fingers crossed!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Waynette! Its good to hear that can work as well.
> 
> Its such a tough call with worming very sick birds- if the worms are bringing them down, they need to be wormed. But if they are regurgitating and sick with other things like canker, injuries etc, the wormer can kill them.
> 
> I believe Squeaker's bird has tapeworms , canker, problems with regurgitation, and various injuries, so I personally believe Minimonkey did everything just right.


I agree.....100% 
Boy, this thread makes some real interesting reading!! I've never encountered gape worm


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Msfreebird said:


> I agree.....100%
> Boy, this thread makes some real interesting reading!! I've never encountered gape worm


Yyyyeeeppppp freebird really is tossing everything she can think of mini's way, but shes taking on the challenge quite well, i think freebird agrees.

Im so glad to hear the moxi will treat gape as well as the other worms, i just hope the dieoff isnt too hard on her. Oohhhh the suspense is killing me! Is it going to help, is the dieoff going to kill her...... i can only hope getting the gape out of there will help the canker go away and all the other ailments she has going on and ........ tah-dddaaahhhhh! Healthy bird  lol


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Squeaker --Can you post a pic of the eyes? They may be normal -- homing pigeons can have some variations in their eyes that are normal, but it would be good to take a look. 

For now, the Ronidazole treatment that you did for canker is probably enough, unless someone else starts showing problems. 

Where did you manage to find the Moxidectin Plus? Did you find the avian kind, or did you end up using the horse paste?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Can you post a pic of the eyes? They may be normal -- homing pigeons can have some variations in their eyes that are normal, but it would be good to take a look.
> 
> For now, the Ronidazole treatment that you did for canker is probably enough, unless someone else starts showing problems.
> 
> Where did you manage to find the Moxidectin Plus? Did you find the avian kind, or did you end up using the horse paste?


Siegels carries moxidectin plus. Ill take a pic and post it... be back in a few
Edit: what do tape worm segments look like in the poo? Does it look like coiled up strings of poo, like a worm just covered in a layer of poo or can you actually see the worm itself? Id like to know for reference for my flock


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

She's stable this morning -- thank goodness. 

Bella -- this spirulina worm sounds like a real possibility! In terms of the movement I saw -- it was really bizarre. It looked like a large marble rolled across her tracheal area --without her moving at all. It seriously looked huge -- like 1.5 cm or more? 

She's still pretty thin, and so the trachea is pretty pronounced -- but holy cow, this was weird. 

When you had the spirulina worm, how did you know? Could you see it in the droppings after worming? Could you see it in the trachea?

I'll have to do some reading up on that. 

I'm off to do a good, thorough exam of Freebird, and will post back in a little bit.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Ah, Siegel's got it back in stock -- that's good to know. They had been out of stock for a bit.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

heres the bird eyes, it seems like he has bags under his eyes... or extra skin compared to the other birds or something. hes always had it since the day we got him. i just assumed he just has funky eyes because these birds are super imbred. the guy started off with a small 20 or so birds, and now has over 80 and he said he has no idea when a bird dies and usually has at least 10 babies on hand (at least he did when i would go see him) so judgeing by that, i can safely say they are EXTREMELY imbred, so thats why ive passed it off. he would only let me get a picture of that one eye, but they are both the same. he is also the one i was telling you about mini, who does the most showy head bobbing. he never cranes his neck backward or looks like hes straining it or anything. i think that may be because hes just the most showy boy, but i thought id mention it anyway in case it is something. and hes the one who growls at me most when i get close to him lol.

ps- i edited my last post, asking about poos after worming them. and this birds mouth is normally not open, i was just upsetting him


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Mini! I don't really know what that large thing was. I would be freaked out! If it was spirulina worms, then it could only have been a large cyst containing worms ready to hatch, hence the movement.




minimonkey said:


> When you had the spirulina worm, how did you know? Could you see it in the droppings after worming? Could you see it in the trachea?


I only know one other carer in real life, she's works as a Vet tech and has been a bird carer for decades. She identified the spirulina worms for me and recommended the treatment. These were not pigeons, they were Australian magpies, who are prone to gape worms.

Inside the mouth of the infected birds were white plaques and clusters of little white cysts, at various sizes. On closer inspection, some of the white plaques will have worms coming out of them, if one happens to be bursting when you look. It can look a bit like yeast or canker, but magpies don't get canker so I ruled it out. If I'd seen this in a pigeon, I may have thought yeast or canker.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Squeaker -- those eyes look pretty normal for a homing pigeon. Sometimes they have rather thick membranes around the eyes, and the cere too -- it can even get lumpy looking as they age, without that being a problem.

His beak looks a little rough and cracked, which might be a vitamin deficiency-- the multivitamin should help with that. I'm not concerned about the look of the eyes. He's a handsome bird!

He sounds like quite the macho man


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Freebird update:

Hair, hair, everywhere!!! Hair worms, that is! She's passing gobs of them. For everyone's reference, who hasn't run across them before -- hair worms are hard to see in droppings sometimes -- they are called hair worms because they are about the thickness of a human hair. They look like a white webbing across the dropping - but if you let a dropping dry a bit, it's clearly a net like pattern. You can lift them out with a pair of tweezers, and they literally look like a piece of hair. There are apparently variants of them that are microscopic, too, but I could see these ones pretty clearly with a magnifying glass.

I haven't seen any tape worms yet -- but those may still be on the way out. 

To answer your question, Squeaker -- generally tape worms don't pass out in full unless a bird is wormed. 

What you usually see is a small, white segment of gooey muck, that dries up and looks a lot like a grain of rice. If you've ever had a cat or dog get worms, you'll know just what I mean ... Cats with worms leave those things around the areas where they sleep. 

When they do get passed out fully, they are very clearly worms.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

That's awesome news mini, far out you're good

How long do the hair worms get?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

"Hair worms" or "thread worms" is the layman's terms for capillaria, which come in a number of different varieties. They can get all over the place in the digestive tract -- they can cause problems swallowing, regurgitation, weight loss --- this might be a big component of the problem here. 

There are a couple of species of capillaria that favors the upper digestive tract, including the crop and the esophagus -- capillaria contorta (I didn't just make that up, I swear!) and capillaria annulata.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

They're usually one to two cm in length, for the intestinal variety -- that's what I have seen most often before -- but the ones that get in the crop tend to be a bit longer it seems. 

I picked one out of Freebird's droppings with a pair of tweezers.. it was about 5 cm long, and I think that was only a portion of the whole worm. From the descriptions I am reading this sounds like capillaria annulata.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Squeaker -- those eyes look pretty normal for a homing pigeon. Sometimes they have rather thick membranes around the eyes, and the cere too -- it can even get lumpy looking as they age, without that being a problem.
> 
> His beak looks a little rough and cracked, which might be a vitamin deficiency-- the multivitamin should help with that. I'm not concerned about the look of the eyes. He's a handsome bird!
> 
> He sounds like quite the macho man


Oh... good to know. Cause hes the only one in the flock that made me wonder. And he definately is a macho man lol, he reminds sean of the good atributes of his cockatiel "arnie"... so his name is arnie 2 lol. Arnie the cockatiel bobbed his head alot and showed off when he was in the cage.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I love the big, showy males -- they make me smile! Especially when they get all fierce and grunty, and start wing whacking me


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Okay, so I found a description of capillaria annulata that sounds a lot like the worms that Bella is describing. 

Capillaria amulata, embed themselves in the lining of the esophagus, crop, or small intestine. ... Some of the marks of this disease are depression, weakness, weight loss, diarrhea, "sitting," coughing, gasping, anemia, excessive salivation, and bad breath. *Note that there are two manifestations, one of which looks very much like Frounce. *

Frounce is another term for canker.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Freebird update:
> 
> Hair, hair, everywhere!!! Hair worms, that is! She's passing gobs of them. For everyone's reference, who hasn't run across them before -- hair worms are hard to see in droppings sometimes -- they are called hair worms because they are about the thickness of a human hair. They look like a white webbing across the dropping - but if you let a dropping dry a bit, it's clearly a net like pattern. You can lift them out with a pair of tweezers, and they literally look like a piece of hair. There are apparently variants of them that are microscopic, too, but I could see these ones pretty clearly with a magnifying glass.
> 
> ...


Oh god, i knew what subject we were on and i still chose to check the thread while eating dinner.... yes i have seen cat and dog worms before.... it made my risotto... a bit less appetizing haha.

Now that im done with dinner  when you worm the birds and whole tapeworms come out, how long are they and are they covered in a layer of poo or do they pass umm.... clean, for lack of better word. Since i wormed them last night, their poo does look different. It looked normal, now its like coiled up. Very different in appearance, almost like little piles of dog poo.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Okay, so I found a description of capillaria annulata that sounds a lot like the worms that Bella is describing.
> 
> Capillaria amulata, embed themselves in the lining of the esophagus, crop, or small intestine. ... Some of the marks of this disease are depression, weakness, weight loss, diarrhea, "sitting," coughing, gasping, anemia, excessive salivation, and bad breath. *Note that there are two manifestations, one of which looks very much like Frounce. *
> 
> Frounce is another term for canker.


interesting. I wonder how long it takes for the canker appearance to go away after worming. I wonder if the canker wasnt as bad as 
We thought


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

LOL about the risotto! Sorry about that!

When tapeworms pass, they tend to be pretty clean. You can clearly tell they are worms. 

The coiled up poops actually sound like really healthy poops, to me -- sort of tightly coiled up in a spirial, with white on the top?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> LOL about the risotto! Sorry about that!
> 
> When tapeworms pass, they tend to be pretty clean. You can clearly tell they are worms.
> 
> The coiled up poops actually sound like really healthy poops, to me -- sort of tightly coiled up in a spirial, with white on the top?


Yes coiled up with white urates. Theyve always been little "poo nuggets". More of like a ball of poo instead of coils. Just seemed odd that they changed over night... but if thats a good thing, i guess they changed for the better lol. Guess they obviously had worms too.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm wondering too about how much is canker and how much is maybe worms ... I can tell that the canker has decreased quite a bit because that distinctive canker smell is much less pronounced. 

It's funny how much we can tell by smells... when you first brought her over, and the droppings had that awful, gagging smell, I could tell there was a bacterial infection in the mix. 

Once that part cleared up, what remained was a sort of sharp, sour smell that is almost chemical... that's canker. The thickening in the crop has cleared up for the most part with the canker meds, too -- and the back of her throat is starting to look a lot better finally. So I think we are part way out of the water with this.

I'm really hoping that I see a big improvement once the worm die off is over ... she's still gasping a bit, and she's still acting as if her crop hurts after feeding, so something is still wrong in there... if worms were part of the culprit, we should see a pretty big improvement in a couple of days. 

Her crop is still emptying way too slowly, too -- I think the mass behind that plug is part of the problem there. 

Do you remember when you first noticed that she wasn't looking or acting quite normal?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Little poop nuggets are okay, too -- but the little spirals are picture perfect poops!  White urates are always a good thing -- the whiter the better. Very probably there was some kind of low grade worm problem present ... let's hope the poops stay so beautiful. 

Nature is cruel, in that once a bird gets weakened by something, all the parasitic organisms take over -- worms, canker, coccidiosis... that's why a bird often goes down with several things at one time. Most healthy birds can live with some amount of worms without disease forming -- and it isn't until they are weak that it shows up as a problem. 

Better to be without them, though!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I'm wondering too about how much is canker and how much is maybe worms ... I can tell that the canker has decreased quite a bit because that distinctive canker smell is much less pronounced.
> 
> It's funny how much we can tell by smells... when you first brought her over, and the droppings had that awful, gagging smell, I could tell there was a bacterial infection in the mix.
> 
> ...


The first day i noticed there was a problem was the first day i posted the thread, id have to go back and check the date. I think the day after i posted is when i brought her to see you. I have 13 birds who all look the same, which is why i think it may have gone a bit longer to notice.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks, Squeaker, I was just wondering if you'd noticed her being 'off' at all before that. 

Birds are really good at hiding when they're not feeling well, so we often don't notice until things have gotten pretty bad. 

Her urates are looking a little whiter -- not white, yet, by any means but better, and they don't smell as strongly. That flat, paintlike look to the urates is very, very often present with canker -- as well as the yellow color. 

She's still heaving quite a bit tonight -- I'm hoping some of that is from the worming after effects ... I still suspect we might see a big old clump of tapeworms pass at some point ... those can take a few days to make their exit.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Thanks, Squeaker, I was just wondering if you'd noticed her being 'off' at all before that.
> 
> Birds are really good at hiding when they're not feeling well, so we often don't notice until things have gotten pretty bad.
> 
> ...


God-speed freebird! Get those ickies out


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Aha! I finally figured out what the worms Bella mentioned are ... they are spirurida ( sub-order spirurina). Now I can do some research in earnest on these.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, we are on the upswing again over here -- this really has been a roller coaster ride, and I hope we are nearing the end of it. 

She's breathing much better again, and pooping better, and very little tail heaving -- passing lots of the small worms still, and now it looks like some fragments of bigger ones are coming out as well. I think last night and this morning's distress might well have been die-off from the worms. 

She was also back to clamoring for attention and feeding this evening -- since the seeds were giving her problems digesting, I went back to tube feeding today, and that seems to be going much better. She has bonded with the syringe -- she starts nuzzling at it before I even get her situated...lol. And many beak kisses tonight. She was even doing it once I put her back in the cage .. she still wanted to nuzzle and cuddle. 

I am still doing the spartrix, and today I switched from metronidazole to ronidazole. She's on Doxycycline/Tylan now, too. 

I think the worst of the canker is clearing. She still has canker breath, but I have to have my face very near her to smell it, and that's a big improvement. 

This poor girl has really been through the mill these last few weeks, not to mention the hawk attack! She deserves a lifetime of beak kisses, cuddles, and pampering.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Mini!


I really appreciated reading your description of the smell of Canker, versus the smell of bacterial infection. I went trawling through this forum once for a decent description, and i couldn't find anything. So to me this is very valuable information, thanks a lot for posting it!

PS. interesting to read the description of capillaria annulata, and the way they embed themselves to look a bit like canker too. I must remember that!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, And just read your most recent news. This sounds familiar- even with the canker showing improvement when the worms were removed. For some reason, I've seen canker meds work better after treating a worm infestation on occassion. My thoughts were the worms compromise the immune system.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella -- I ran across an old thread of yours, while searching for resistant canker in the archives -- I think it was about the very bird you were referencing before. It was an interesting read, and yes, very much like what I am seeing with this bird. 

I've certainly learned a lot about worms today! Once you mentioned the canker-like worms, I started trying to find them in the literature, which led me to all kinds of gems. 

Worms do weaken the immune system, and they also create breaches in membranes that allow canker, bacteria, etc. to pass through the digestive or respiratory walls and spread. Plus, canker protozoa feed on bacterial waste, so it wouldn't surprise me if they feed on parasitic waste products too. 

I suspect I'll be seeing worms for a few days yet -- there seem to have been quite a few in there.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You're welcome for the smell description -- it's hard to describe a smell, but the smell of canker is very distinctive. I find it smells almost chemical rather than biological -- not gaggingly foul, but sharp and quite odd. 

It smells very different than a bacterial infection (which generally smells more like human feces), and also different than mycoplasma/sinusitis related nasal discharge, which is by far the worst smelling thing I have ever come across in a bird. 

Yeast also has a distinctive smell. It's kind of sickening and sweet at the same time, or occasionally smells a little like alcohol (beer, specifically).


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Wow, great descriptions, Minimonkey. Actually I think you may have just helped me identify a persistent smell that was in my loft a little while ago, which didn't go away after canker and antibiotic treatments. It must have been yeast, by your description. I've been acififying the water lately, so maybe that partially cleared it up. I think I'll have a poke around my pigeon's mouths this week, and check them again.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Acidifying the water helps tremendously with yeast -- probiotics do, as well. What are you using in the water? Another thing that helps a lot is garlic -- I add garlic juice to my bird's water fairly often. 

I do a lot of sniffing as a part of my diagnostic process, which must seem pretty strange to most people! I do find it is one of the best ways to identify problems, which can mimic one another so closely in terms of visual cues. 

With yeast, you often find a sort of sick/sweet smell in the droppings, and the urates can look a bit clumpy/cheesy. The breath is more likely to have the alcohol/beer smell.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Awwww such great news, im so happy for her. And hahahahaha about the feeding tube, thats adoreable  glad shes feeling better and i hope it continues.

Edit: whoops i didnt see all the posts on page 15 lol. I agree with bella, this is all super helpful, im sure ill be referring back to this thread in the future, especially when i get a whiff of something funky


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, for once, I have good news and MORE good news! Freebird has sustained the improvement since yesterday -- she was hungry this morning, and the crop was empty. 

Very little heaving even after feeding, though she still seems uncomfortable with a filled crop, it is nothing like it was. 

She's still passing hairworms regularly -- so there were a lot of those critters in there. 

Her canker breath is much less noticeable today, though the urates are still quite yellow. 

The best news is that the mass behind the plug is now decreasing in size, and seemed less sore today too!  The improvement is really rapid since switching med combos, and worming -- so I am sticking with the Doxy/Tylan, and the Spartrix/Ronidazole, and Nystatin for now. I will worm again 10 days from the first dose, as is recommended, since we clearly had a worm problem. 

I'll stick to tube feeding today, to get as much nutrition in there as I can, and think about offering some seeds again tomorrow. 

Overall, I am really encouraged by this progress.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Well, for once, I have good news and MORE good news! Freebird has sustained the improvement since yesterday -- she was hungry this morning, and the crop was empty.
> 
> Very little heaving even after feeding, though she still seems uncomfortable with a filled crop, it is nothing like it was.
> 
> ...


Woooo-hooooo! Thats great news  i suppose i should probably do the same with worming again for the flock, yes?

Its funny how once you find the right combo of treatment everything starts falling into place and normalizing. Theyre such resiliant little creatures!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It IS great news -- I'm breathing a big sigh of relief over here. Freebird is one heck of a resilient creature... pigeons are, in general, but some really stand out in terms of how very strong their will to live is. 

I think I would do another round of wormer with your birds, yes -- there's a pretty high likelihood they had worms too. 

I'm thinking that bizarre movement I saw in the throat had to be worm related -- I really can't imagine what else it could have been. I expect to see worms shedding for a few more days.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> It IS great news -- I'm breathing a big sigh of relief over here. Freebird is one heck of a resilient creature... pigeons are, in general, but some really stand out in terms of how very strong their will to live is.
> 
> I think I would do another round of wormer with your birds, yes -- there's a pretty high likelihood they had worms too.
> 
> I'm thinking that bizarre movement I saw in the throat had to be worm related -- I really can't imagine what else it could have been. I expect to see worms shedding for a few more days.


Okie doke, theyll be wormed again.

I bet that mass of worms (or whatever it was) moving around will probably be one to remember lol. That sounds freaky!

Im feeling a sense of relief with her too. Its nice to hear good news on a constant basis, youre doing a wonderful job minimonkey!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, I spoke to soon and jinxed it, I think. She totally tanked about an hour ago, and started open beak breathing very badly, and was having a hard time holding her head up -- 

So, I went into emergency mode -- she's propped up on the heating pad, and has a humidifier that has the pigeon Vetrx in the diffuser part of it (as directed on the product), and I put the Forma drops in one eye -- it didn't flow into the eye at all, but ran back out and also out her nostril -- so there's congestion in the sinuses. 

Looking at the placement of the canker lesion on the top of her mouth, I think there's probably canker in the sinus cavity, but it may yet be a bacterial infection. She has white matter in her airway that looks more like mucus than canker.

She seemed to be stabilizing a little just now, after being by the humidifier for about 20 minutes. 

This is so puzzling after having her breathing so well this morning. This bird is just mystery after mystery.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh Mini, what a rollercoaster!

Do you know much about the effect of canker nodules coming off in the lung or trachea? I don't know a huge amount about this myself, but I seem to remember it can cause complications. 


Oh Mini! I am looking forward to the time you can finally relax, this has been one tough case.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Oh Mini, what a rollercoaster!
> 
> Do you know much about the effect of canker nodules coming off in the lung or trachea? I don't know a huge amount about this myself, but I seem to remember it can cause complications.
> 
> ...


Mini did a wonderful job with my little freebird, i honestly think she has done everything right, but freebird was having a very hard time. She just passed away a little bit ago. Im so sad, but at least i can say ive gained an immense amount of knowledge about what to do if anything comes up in the future. She was such a fighter even up until the end. Im going to bring her home and burry her on my property.

Its truely heart breaking, but minimonkey did everything possible for her.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh Damn, that's really awful and unexpected  

What an amazing and thoughtful carer Mini has been, she left no stone unturned. This is definitely one of those cases where everything that could be done, was done, and a lot more...

Its so sad to lose a beautiful bird like her, she was a sweetheart. She really liked Mini, who must have a lovely manner with birds. So at least we know she enjoyed her stay in hospital and all the attention she received in her last days.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I am very sorry to hear about your loss. You and Mini appear to have done all you could. Thank you for caring so much.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Oh Damn, that's really awful and unexpected
> 
> What an amazing and thoughtful carer Mini has been, she left no stone unturned. This is definitely one of those cases where everything that could be done, was done, and a lot more...
> 
> Its so sad to lose a beautiful bird like her, she was a sweetheart. She really liked Mini, who must have a lovely manner with birds. So at least we know she enjoyed her stay in hospital and all the attention she received in her last days.


Freebird kinda liked everyone but she definately got close to mini and she seemed to genuinely enjoy her company, which makes me happy


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

almondman said:


> I am very sorry to hear about your loss. You and Mini appear to have done all you could. Thank you for caring so much.


Thank you, i think freebird did the best she could too, she hung in there much longer than i initially thought she would


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

:*-(
I'm very sorry for your loss. I've been following this thread wishing for the best. It is always so disappointing when you invest all of your efforts and you are not successful in saving them. But you and Freebird gave a good fight. It was just too much for her little body to take. 

You can rest knowing that you both gave it your all. 

It was a great learning thread for all of us.

Mudsow


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

mudsow said:


> :*-(
> I'm very sorry for your loss. I've been following this thread wishing for the best. It is always so disappointing when you invest all of your efforts and you are not successful in saving them. But you and Freebird gave a good fight. It was just too much for her little body to take.
> 
> You can rest knowing that you both gave it your all.
> ...


It was definately quite a learning experience. Minimonkey asked if i would be okay with doing an autopsy on freebird to see what exactly happened. I said yes, in hopes that it would shed some light on all the ups and downs. She found alot of canker in the sinus cavity and an enlarged heart, which she said was caused by infection from the necrotic plug from the hawk attack. So im convinced mini definately did everything right, her prior injuries were just too much for her little body. It went unnoticed too long because she hid it very well.

She said there wasnt much that could have been done, but freebird sure did put up a fight and minimonkey gave her so much love in her last days. I think she really enjoyed her time with mini.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hi everyone -- thanks for the kind words and sympathy. My heart is pretty broken right now. 

I did cut into the body, so I would know more about what went wrong, and I am certain the main problem was the necrotic plug .. it ran clear through the very bottom of the crop wall and into the heart -- the heart looked enlarged (to my eyes), and there was literally a hole into it from the plug. I think the original wound ran very deep -- it had effectively nailed the crop onto the heart at a diagonal. 

There was quite a lot of canker up into the sinus cavity, too, though I think the heart was the main problem -- that would explain the intermittent fits of labored breathing, without obvious congestion. 

I do wonder if the worming was a bad idea -- I don't know. When she was laboring for breath a couple of nights ago, after I wormed her, her heart was beating very fast and very hard. Then, she seemed much better, and then ... she went down fast.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I had her propped up in a little fleece donut, to keep her head elevated, right at the end... and she rolled onto her side and tucked her feet back in flight position just before she died. 

I like to think she flew away from her body and is happy and pain-free somewhere.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I had her propped up in a little fleece donut, to keep her head elevated, right at the end... and she rolled onto her side and tucked her feet back in flight position just before she died.
> 
> I like to think she flew away from her body and is happy and pain-free somewhere.


Aww, that made me tear up, not sad tears, but because its sweet. Ive been getting teary eyed all night, but i had somewhat of a half smile while reading this. Kinds like this ----->


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, I am sitting here crying right now. I made it through the post-mortem exam very matter-of-factly, but then I totally lost it. 

I tucked her body up in a nice little box, with her fleecy blankets -- (the body itself is wrapped up in paper towels, which you can just bury along with her -- that way you don't need to see the body as it is, post exam.)


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Yeah, I am sitting here crying right now. I made it through the post-mortem exam very matter-of-factly, but then I totally lost it.
> 
> I tucked her body up in a nice little box, with her fleecy blankets -- (the body itself is wrapped up in paper towels, which you can just bury along with her -- that way you don't need to see the body as it is, post exam.)


Sean and i decided to burry her under her favorite pecan tree that she would roost in when she first got out. She spent about 5 days hanging out mostly there because it was in clear view of the loft, i think she spent time there trying to figure out how to get back in. So we decided to burry her under it so she can keep watch over my flock. I know it sounds corny, but it makes me feel better.

I have always burried my pets on this property when it was my grandmas home. Ive always burried them facing the beautiful field behind my house that gets completely covered with wild flowers in the spring time, but thats the same field where she got attacked, so i sorta dont want her there.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

thought id repost this picture. eventhough she was sick, she still seemed so happy in the tree, she liked to walk in it and come out the other side. its already framed on my wall. im glad i took it, just in case she didnt make it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Corny or not, I think that's really beautiful. I'm sure she'll make a wonderful guardian angel for your other birds. 

She had an amazing spirit, and I do think that lives on in some form.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I love that picture.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, that's just the most rotten luck Mini, what a difficult problem and possibly unsolvable. From what you're describing, she had very little chance of survival  She was so lucky to meet you, mini- she had a really loving and peaceful end to her life....plenty of care, food, warmth, safety, love-you gave her the best, and for awhile there, she really felt well. 

I'm so sorry you lost her, and I hope you take good care of yourself tonight, you deserve it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

And Squeaker, I didn't mean to leave you out! You have been so great too, and I love that beautiful picture. I am so sorry you lost her.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks, Bella. I hope I made her last days as pleasant and happy as possible. 

I was reviewing some necropsy pictures of normal pigeon hearts, and yes, this one was really, really enlarged -- about twice the size it should be relative to the chest cavity. I think there was a lot of infection in there that had compromised her heart function a great deal. 

We live, and learn, and sometimes get our hearts broken in the process. 

She did seem peaceful when she died. I sat with her for most of the last hour... I had gotten up just momentarily, and when I came back, she had rolled on her side, tucked her feet back, and had stopped breathing. It was almost like she didn't want to die with me watching. She didn't appear to be in pain, just slipping away ... breath slowing, etc. 

I know there was nothing more I could have done, and I'm not too sure there's much even an avian surgeon could have done in this case.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> And Squeaker, I didn't mean to leave you out! You have been so great too, and I love that beautiful picture. I am so sorry you lost her.


Thank you. With mini's direction and advice, i did what i was able to do, but the time came where i couldnt help her any more and i needed to leave it in her hands. Im confident in knowing mini prolonged her life. Without a doubt, freebird died more peacefully, healthier and in less pain than she would have if she didnt get her help.

I miss her


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Thanks, Bella. I hope I made her last days as pleasant and happy as possible.
> 
> I was reviewing some necropsy pictures of normal pigeon hearts, and yes, this one was really, really enlarged -- about twice the size it should be relative to the chest cavity. I think there was a lot of infection in there that had compromised her heart function a great deal.
> 
> ...


Awww, she really liked you. People and pets have definately been known to wait to pass on. I think its very possible that she did wait till you werent watching. At least she died with a mate, or at least the closest she had to one, even if you werent the right species or gender  you made her feel better and i think she knew that, so she loved you back.

When i first got my birds, i never immagined id find that one special bird out of the flock. They may have all looked the same, but she had always been different, by far the most social and friendly. I never thought id get so attached to a bird, but she was special.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

She was incredibly special. I miss her too, and I had only known her just a little while. Some birds are like that -- they just steal your heart right from the beginning. I'm grieving over her as much as if she were one of my birds -- she was that special.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> She was incredibly special. I miss her too, and I had only known her just a little while. Some birds are like that -- they just steal your heart right from the beginning. I'm grieving over her as much as if she were one of my birds -- she was that special.


In a way, she sort of became your bird too. You cared for her probably just as much as i did. Honestly, after hearing how well she was bonding with you and how much you enjoyed her cuddles, it crossed my mind a few times to offer to let you keep her, eventhough i love her very much. Since they bond for life, i wondered if she would ever bond with me that way. Im sure you probably dont need a 19th bird, but it crossed my mind because i knew you cared for her emmensely and could give her the absolute best care.

I thought about it for the same reasons sean found his cockatiel a new home, if the bird would be happier, it was worth it..... thats not to say i would have for sure.... cause i love that little bird, but i gave it some consideration


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That's awfully sweet -- I knew I'd miss her a lot when she went home, but I was also really looking forward to you having your bird back -- I know you loved her a great deal, and she clearly loved you, too. I just would have insisted on constant updates and pictures.

This is just such a sad, sad night.  We both lost a great deal with her passing. 

I almost imagine I can hear her wings beating in the distance, finally flying again. (Yeah, I'm pretty sappy when I'm really sad.)


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> That's awfully sweet -- I knew I'd miss her a lot when she went home, but I was also really looking forward to you having your bird back -- I know you loved her a great deal, and she clearly loved you, too. I just would have insisted on constant updates and pictures.
> 
> This is just such a sad, sad night.  We both lost a great deal with her passing.
> 
> I almost imagine I can hear her wings beating in the distance, finally flying again. (Yeah, I'm pretty sappy when I'm really sad.)


I get that way too. I should have been asleep at least 2 hours ago because I have to wake up at 4am, but i cant stop crying and thinking about her. I only smoke about a half pack of cigarettes a day but ive smoked at least that many if not more just in the last few hours.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm right there with you (except the getting up at 4 am part).


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, it's morning, and I am starting to get used to the idea that Freebird's cage is empty 

It's going to take a while for the stabbing grief to start to fade.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Thanks, Bella. I hope I made her last days as pleasant and happy as possible.
> 
> I was reviewing some necropsy pictures of normal pigeon hearts, and yes, this one was really, really enlarged -- about twice the size it should be relative to the chest cavity. I think there was a lot of infection in there that had compromised her heart function a great deal.
> 
> ...





minimonkey said:


> Well, it's morning, and I am starting to get used to the idea that Freebird's cage is empty
> 
> It's going to take a while for the stabbing grief to start to fade.


Ive been looking at her new cage that she never got to enjoy, so i know how ya feel


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I know, Squeaker, I thought about you having the new cage, and how very sad that must be. It's heartbreaking to think about it. 

I was so sure she was getting better -- especially yesterday, when she looked so good after feeding, for once. That rapid decline really shocked me ... usually there's at least some indication that a bird is getting better, or declining, or what have you --- this up and down daily roller-coaster is something I've never seen before. 

I keep wracking my brain to think if there is something I should/could have done differently. If there is, I don't know what it would be -- except maybe waiting longer before worming her. I really think there was damage to the heart, and that infection had penetrated into it by way of the puncture wound. That would explain the ups and downs -- rather like when a human has heart problems and the symptoms come and go. 

In any event, no amount of answers are going to make me feel less sad -- and sometimes grief is the price of allowing oneself to feel love.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I know, Squeaker, I thought about you having the new cage, and how very sad that must be. It's heartbreaking to think about it.
> 
> I was so sure she was getting better -- especially yesterday, when she looked so good after feeding, for once. That rapid decline really shocked me ... usually there's at least some indication that a bird is getting better, or declining, or what have you --- this up and down daily roller-coaster is something I've never seen before.
> 
> ...


If i only knew then what i know now... i wouldnt have had you waste so much time trying to fix a lost cause, or let her suffer so long. But i am glad you got to meet her  if i would have known what the problem was i would have taken her to the vet to be euthenized so she wouldnt be in pain. I think thats what i feel most awful about.

Maybe yesterday when she was looking better, it was her last ditch effort to try and make it. I agree with you, if her heart was like 2 times the size it should be, i would say that its almost certain that it was irreverseable. Even if she did overcome the canker and worms and the myriad of other things she was suffering with, she still would have had the enlarged heart, she really was on borrowed time. If it was never going to get better, its better now rather than later. It would have been more suffering for her and us if she stayed and still had the heart problem. As sad as it is, at least she doesnt feel so crummy any more


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I know -- not that it was a waste of time -- it wasn't-- but I hate to think of her suffering. I actually loved every minute of caring for her, and she did seem to return the affection, so I think her last days at least had an up-side to them. 

Sometimes there is just no way to know these things ... so I do the best we can, and try to save them if there is even the remotest chance of recovery.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I know -- not that it was a waste of time -- it wasn't-- but I hate to think of her suffering. I actually loved every minute of caring for her, and she did seem to return the affection, so I think her last days at least had an up-side to them.
> 
> Sometimes there is just no way to know these things ... so I do the best we can, and try to save them if there is even the remotest chance of recovery.


Absolutely. And im so glad you did decide to help her. She definately felt better, judging by the things you told me. Thats how she used to act, only much more so when she was with you.

Id never give up on an animal, but im not selfish either. If i were somehow magically psychic and i knew what had been going on with her, i may have chosen to not let her be in pain any more. But she died a much happeir bird, thats one thing i do know for sure. You gave her a happier end then i could have, which kills me but its true. She did have her happy moments when i was taking care of her those few days though.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It breaks my heart that I didn't get to give her back to you to enjoy many, many more happy moments with her -- I know she would have bonded to you just as fiercely as she did to me. She really was just an incredibly loving bird. 

Thank you for all the kind words. That really means a lot to me. 

I felt so sad when I walked in the door tonight -- I just tried not to look over where her cage was -- it's so sad not seeing her there to greet me. 

I agree with you about the suffering -- there is a point where the most humane thing to do is to euthanize -- but I figure if there's a fighting chance of a good recovery and quality of life afterward, then I do all I can to fight for that. Sometimes we just don't know what we're up against. 

There's a thread in the archive somewhere, with a case really similar to this one -- a bird with a prior predator attack, and a similar old wound and necrotic plug -- that bird died as well, and also after it seemed like it was recovering -- if I recall, the wound was about the same age, too -- four or five months old. I'll see if I can find the thread, as I may have some of the details wrong in my memory.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This is one of the threads I'm remembering, but I was wrong about the age of the wounds ... still, not too different on the whole. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/necrotic-scab-plug-and-other-old-holes-17362-2.html


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Ohhhhh, My heart just dropped when I read this! I'm soooo sorry she didn't make it. I've been trying to follow this thread. It's obvious that you did everything you could possibly do for this little girl.
Whenever I've had a bird going thru a long treatment like this, and they get to the point where their little body starts to give up, I hold them knowing that they are going to leave soon. I too, like to believe that they fly out of their body. I have noticed each time that as I hold them, crying, and telling them to go to sleep and fly to heaven, they get very calm, slowly lift their wings and lift their head as if their getting ready to lift off...then their gone.
So in my heart I know they are flying free now.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> This is one of the threads I'm remembering, but I was wrong about the age of the wounds ... still, not too different on the whole.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/necrotic-scab-plug-and-other-old-holes-17362-2.html


It does sound very similar. That pigeon seemed to go down hill much faster since the initial attack, perhaps the switch in medicines had an effect? It seems like the same thing that happened with freebird. She went down hill pretty quickly after switching from baytril to doxy, perhaps just pure coincidence, but i wonder if it disrupted the plug some how in both birds. So many possibilities, one can only speculate when they cant tell us what hurts.

Btw, im still eaiting on the meds from jedds to come in.

And i think after i worm my birds one more time that ill bring a different bird inside. I cant decide if i should take in my other favorite (speculated) hen or seans favorite goofy boy "arnie 2".... i just worry about compareing it to freebird :-/ i hope thst doesnt happen


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think your other birds would probably be happier outside with the other birds, having a normal life. Why not look to adopt a handicapped bird who must be kept inside? There are many birds out there like that who need homes? You could be helping one who needs it, rather than taking a healthy bird away from its companions.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> I think your other birds would probably be happier outside with the other birds, having a normal life. Why not look to adopt a handicapped bird who must be kept inside? There are many birds out there like that who need homes? You could be helping one who needs it, rather than taking a healthy bird away from its companions.


You know, i didnt think about that. Where might i find such a bird who needs an indoor cage of his/her own and the love of someone like me?  Now that you mention it, minimonkeys bird psyche was one of my favorites and shes disabled, and hazmat too with his tremors. I seem to gravitate toward the gimpy ones.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

People on Pigeon Talk are always looking for people to adopt birds who have been injured or have some kind of handicap. I have such a pij who lives in our living room. We just love Scooter. Check out the adoption section, or let everyone know that you are interested in adopting such a pij.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for the beautiful and reassuring words, MsFreebird. 

I've been doing a lot of reading about heart problems in birds since Freebird's death. I'm almost certain that was the primary problem, very probably as a result of bacteria in the heart due to the puncture wound. 

One of the symptoms of heart failure is syncope, which is fainting -- which really makes some sense of that first time she appeared to be dead. She also had a few near-fainting episodes after we started treating her -- putting her beak down, growing very weak, etc., and then recovering again. 

Heart failure secondary to bacterial infections seems to be fairly common, and even bad canker can cause it, apparently. 

I also wonder if the switch to doxycycline had anything to do with her rapid decline -- doxycycline is fairly effective against anaerobic bacteria, which are a likely culprit with masses that are behind necrotic plugs. It did seem to start breaking down that mass, and perhaps that was just too much for the system to handle, or it released more bacteria into the heart ...?

This is all speculation, as you say Squeaker, but perhaps it is information that will be useful the next time someone sees an injury of this nature.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Jay3 -- I was thinking about that too, suggesting adopting a handicapped bird. 

My handicapped birds are my absolute favorites (Psyche and Hazmat) -- they are just so tame, and so affectionate, and they thrive on attention. They can't be in with other birds because of their disabilites, but they do very well with an enclosure that is suited to their needs, and with lots of human attention. 

I think that's a really good idea, and I'm sure there's just the right bird out there who needs your love and care! 

No one will ever compare to Freebird, but each bird is beautiful and special in its own way.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> People on Pigeon Talk are always looking for people to adopt birds who have been injured or have some kind of handicap. I have such a pij who lives in our living room. We just love Scooter. Check out the adoption section, or let everyone know that you are interested in adopting such a pij.


Honestly, i think ill totally look into it. Freebird started to blossom with her personality, which i think was partially because of the one on one attention she was getting from mini. I was already very attatched to her but even more so when she was undergoing treatment.

I truely enjoy taking on those emotionally heart wrenching cases and seeing them bounce back and show how amazing they truely are. One of my dogs was that way and another 3 legged dog i fostered were both trainwrecks both physically, emotionally and everything inbetween and they turned out to be amazing dogs


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

The 3 legged dog i named "rocket" was one of the toughest cases ive ever taken on and god was it hard to let him go to a new family. Someone beat him as an 8 week old puppy (the vet said judging by the xrays it was probably something like a bat, definately not a car. It was for sure done by a person) it completely shattered his shoulder and they kicked him out on his own and he roamed the hillside until he was 9 months old until he was finally trapped by the rescue people.

He was super aggressive toward people, id almost call him vicious. But he took to me so fast. In the end, his missing leg didnt slow him down and he was fully rehabilitated and trained and adopted out to a very active loving family. They still send me updates even 2 years later and i get so excited to recieve them. They now have a 1 year old daughter and "rocket" mothers her, always standing or laying within a few feet to make sure no one hurts her. They say hes so gentle with her. They always say they think im crazy because hes such a teddy bear and that he doesnt have an aggressive bone in his body

<3 its the ones who come from the saddest situations or are physically incapable of surviving without you who sometimes turn out to be the most wonderful animals that you remember forever


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow, what a heart wrenching story about Rocket, but with such a beautiful outcome!! (How can people be so cruel????) 

I also enjoy taking on the really difficult rehabs -- of course it is devastating when they don't recover -- but so often they DO recover, and go on to thrive, and show how very strong and resilient they are. 

I always bond the most fiercely with the ones who need the most care -- that seems to create a really deep bond between human and bird. 

I think you'd do wonderfully with a special-needs pigeon!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Check out this post -- maybe you could work out having one of these birds transported to you --

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f10/rescued-pijis-for-adoption-southern-ca-65889.html


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Wow, what a heart wrenching story about Rocket, but with such a beautiful outcome!! (How can people be so cruel????)
> 
> I also enjoy taking on the really difficult rehabs -- of course it is devastating when they don't recover -- but so often they DO recover, and go on to thrive, and show how very strong and resilient they are.
> 
> ...


He was such a good boy and really grasped everything i taught him very quickly. I cried both happy and sad tears when i rehomed him. I knew i was only helping him and that he would eventually leave but i was also so happy to see him have a real family. The first year and a half of his life was spent getting beat up by someone, wandering around as a ferrel with a broken shoulder, recouperating, and being trained. He earned his family  and they earned him too. I probably turned down 20 people cause it seemed like they just wanted an odd ball 3 legged dog. His new home is gorgeous too, im jealous!! He was mixed with pitbull, which i always speculated had something to do with him getting beat up. They have such a bad rap. But he just goes to show, pitbulls have a bad reputation because of what people do to them. Raise them right, and theyre amazing dogs. Thats why their nickname back in the early 1900s was "nanny dogs".

Im sure i would need alot of advice with a rescue, but even with dogs, ive never had any formal training... alot of it is listening, reading and watching everything you can. Sometimes you learn as you go. Even the most experienced fancier learns new things all the time, and if not.... thats just sad


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You'd do great with a rescue, I think -- the fact that you are so good with dog rescues is evidence of that. Most of us are self-taught, or taught by each other -- and it is a constant learning process.

Every pit bull I've ever known has been a big love-muffin -- but like any animal, they can be vicious if they are abused or taught to be vicious. I'm so glad you found Rocket a loving home -- it sounds like you have a real gift for dog rehab!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> You'd do great with a rescue, I think -- the fact that you are so good with dog rescues is evidence of that. Most of us are self-taught, or taught by each other -- and it is a constant learning process.
> 
> Every pit bull I've ever known has been a big love-muffin -- but like any animal, they can be vicious if they are abused or taught to be vicious. I'm so glad you found Rocket a loving home -- it sounds like you have a real gift for dog rehab!


I only have experience with rehabing dogs, but i do truely enjoy it so i can immagine id love it with birds too. My mom always tells me how much i live upto my name.  she says she picked it because it means "careing and christ-like". I always tell her shes my biggest fan lol.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think you'd take to pigeon rehab really quickly -- you have a very gentle, calm and steady way of interacting with birds. I think you'd really enjoy it, too -- I know I do.

It's one of the most meaningful parts of my life -- I enjoy the daily care routine, the one on one interaction with the ones who need special care, the process of discovery as a bird begins to heal and its personality starts to emerge .... When I first took in and hand raised two babies almost 8 years ago, I never imagined this would become such a big part of my life ... but after those first two stole my heart, there was just no going back.

If you have an open heart and an open door, I have no doubt that a bird will turn up very soon in need of your care..... several of us only half-jokingly say that word gets out quickly among pigeons when there's someone willing to help them.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I think you'd take to pigeon rehab really quickly -- you have a very gentle, calm and steady way of interacting with birds. I think you'd really enjoy it, too -- I know I do.
> 
> It's one of the most meaningful parts of my life -- I enjoy the daily care routine, the one on one interaction with the ones who need special care, the process of discovery as a bird begins to heal and its personality starts to emerge .... When I first took in and hand raised two babies almost 8 years ago, I never imagined this would become such a big part of my life ... but after those first two stole my heart, there was just no going back.
> 
> If you have an open heart and an open door, I have no doubt that a bird will turn up very soon in need of your care..... several of us only half-jokingly say that word gets out quickly among pigeons when there's someone willing to help them.


Aww thats cute  i always say pets can smell money lol. As soon as ive got a decent ammount of money saved up, my chihuahua cracks her tooth on a bone and needs it removed or my cat comes up with some wierd and rare fungus from a rosebush 

SPEAKING OF BABIES!!!!!! Sean just went to feed the flock and he found 2 eggs  theyre our flocks first eggs. He was so excited, of course i am too but i told him not to get too excited cause they might not be fertelized. But our yellow banded birds have been strutting around like crazy lately.

Problem is: she layed them on the ground directly in front of the loft door. Any tips since we arent sure if theyre even fertelized? Should we move them to a nest box or just let them be and see what happens? I know the hen will jump off as soon as she hears us comming and IF theyre fertelized, i dont want that. Can you candle pigeon eggs like you can with chicken eggs?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't let them have eggs on the floor. They will try to take over the whole area, and babies just aren't safe on the floor. If you move them, they may abandon them, but they will lay more. Don't they have a nest box? I would take them and let them lay again. Lock them up for a day or two in a nest box til they start seeing it as their box. Once they do that, they should lay in there.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> I wouldn't let them have eggs on the floor. They will try to take over the whole area, and babies just aren't safe on the floor. If you move them, they may abandon them, but they will lay more. Don't they have a nest box? I would take them and let them lay again. Lock them up for a day or two in a nest box til they start seeing it as their box. Once they do that, they should lay in there.


No nest boxes yet. We didnt want to purposely encourage breeding quite yet, since its still our first year of keeping pigeons. But of course we were glad to see that theyre happy and healthy enough to lay them for us.

Since there are eggs now. I suppose ill move them and see what happens. Id rather at least give them a chance if they are fertelized. I suppose id feel guilty if i threw the eggs away or broke them.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Squeaker! I've had some good luck with moving eggs when the hen was sitting on them. I've moved nest boxes from under the house to the back of the yard, then to another position later, and my hen never abandoned her eggs 

So my thoughts are you could keep the eggs where they are, and put them in a shallow box. Then wait for the hen to be on the eggs in the box, and move them together to the new location , if possible...not sure if this is right for your setup... Just an idea.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, hey, that's happy news indeed! You can indeed candle pigeon eggs, just like chicken eggs. I agree to move the eggs to a nest box, or else you may have pigeons trying to lay on the floor for all eternity .. once they get in the habit, it's hard to break. 

You could try Bella's suggestion -- that might well work. And, once they start laying, there are more eggs to come  

Probably best to go ahead and get nest boxes in the loft-- they'll lay with or without them. If you don't want babies just yet, you can always swap out the eggs for dummy eggs before they incubate at all. 

I love it when new life comes along in the wake of death -- it is a great reminder that life has a cycle that won't be defeated.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have moved eggs, nest and all from a cage to a box, while the male was sitting on it, and they didn't abandon them. Sometimes it works. My pair were exceptional parents the whole time they were raising their babies. I don't think moving them to another state would have caused them to leave their eggs. Neither one ever wanted to get off the nest when it was the others turn. So cute! As was mentioned, with or without boxes, they will lay when they want to.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

I guess its time to repurpose the bookshelf where i store my quad riding gear 

And yes, the possibility of new life has perked me up a bit, even them laying weather fertelized or not. They have good timeing.


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