# Finding banded pigeons--trace the owner or not?



## KLaw (Feb 12, 2006)

I read the sticky about how to trace the owners of banded pigeons, but I have to ask about it. When the hen that I have now was found by my friend, she had a broken wing and other injuries. I suggested to my friend that the owner might be traceable through the band number, but my friend was reluctant to do that, fearing that the bird might be destroyed by the owner/breeder. I naively thought that that couldn't possibly be the case, but then I did an online search and found this, among other information:

[url]
[url]
Basically, the pra...d some light on this, I'd be glad to hear it.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I have removed the sites you had listed, pending review by our moderators. Please review the policy regarding the discussion of culling.


----------



## KLaw (Feb 12, 2006)

Okay, I will look for that. I'm really surprised that this would be suppressed, because the quotes were all in the breeders' own words. Don't people need to have this information in order to make a decision when they find a bird with a band?


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

KLaw and all members,

Please have a look at the Forum Rules Of Conduct regarding lethal culling: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7006 Lethal culling is not an acceptable topic for discussion here but tracing and returning banded pigeons to their owners is a perfectly fine topic.

Terry


----------



## KLaw (Feb 12, 2006)

Terry,

That is exactly why I posted those links, because I *agree* with the policy about lethal culling not being tolerated! That's exactly why I wanted people to be aware of this when finding a banded bird. So many people don't have any idea that this happens, and isn't it better that the information is out there for them?

Kathy


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

KLAW,..........this is a very touchy subject and you are right to be concerned. My husband and I race our birds but we have NEVER kill and NEVER WILL kill a bird just because it gets lost. I've driven over 8 hours round trip to pick up my lost bird. However, as sad as it is, some folks just don't give a crap about their birds unless they can "do good" on race day. It's good that you are aware of this problem. The best advice I can give you is number one, if you find a banded bird, you should still try to contact the owner. It is their bird after all, BUT, STRESS to them that you are willing to keep the bird if they don't want it back. For the people who do destroy lost racers, I believe for the most part, it's because a non-pigeon person has it and doesn't know what to do with it so they agree to pick it up and then destroy it, BUT, I think that MOST of the time, if they are aware that the person that has the bird is willing to keep it and give a home, they would just as soon not be bothered by having to pick it up. I wish this didn't go on, but unfortunately it does, always has and always will and the best we can do is care for what belongs to us and attempt to care for a lost one. A good example is my Beanie Baby who has been adopted by one of our members. Poor baby just never did make a good racer. He's a heck of a homer though!!! LOL No way would I have ever destroyed him. That's why I tried to find a home and did but if I had not, he would have been kept here somehow, somewhere. Anyway, just do your part to save the ones you can. That's about all any of us can do. Also, thanks for giving a darn!!!


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Some Opinions And Some Experiences*

I've been doing bird rescue for more than eight years now and started getting banded pigeons in fairly early on. While I have had some disappointing experiences with the owners of a few of the banded birds, for the most part these people have been responsible and caring with regard to their birds. Pigeon fanciers are no different than any other group of people .. there are good ones, bad ones, and ones that sort of fall in between good and bad.

A banded pigeon is not unlike finding someone's dog or cat that is wearing a collar and an identification tag. If you are an honorable person, you are most likely going to make an effort to return the found "property" to the rightful owner.

The AU (American Racing Pigeon Union) has guidelines for their members that "require" the members to be responsible pigeon owners with regard to retrieving birds found by members of the public. Obviously, it is extremely bad PR for the sport if an owner is perceived to be cruel or uncaring and an AU member can be sanctioned for failing to retrieve a bird or for being less than politically correct when dealing with a member of the public who has found a banded bird.

I am one of the moderators on 911 Pigeon Alert which is an internet based group that assists people who have found a banded pigeon and need help in locating the owner or in caring for the bird until the owner or a permanent home is found. There have been hundreds and hundreds of pigeons reported to 911 Pigeon Alert, and in only a very few cases have there been difficulties with owners of the nature you are concerned about. 

In the past week three banded pigeons have come my way after having been rescued by kind people in my area. 

One was a racing pigeon registered to a gentleman in Oceanside (AU 2005 SIM 523). The bird was found at a school in Fullerton CA after having gone off course in a training toss that started from the top of Cajon Pass off I-15. When I contacted the owner, he was extremely grateful that people had helped his bird. He picked the bird up from me this morning, and it was clear he cared about the bird.

Another is a white racing pigeon used for ceremonial release (AU 2004 JEDDS 24370). This bird's home loft is in Orange CA, but the bird was found in the South Bay Area of LA County with an injured wing. The finders sought assistance in locating the owner, and we were successful in that endeavor. Here again, the owner was concerned for the bird and willing to go and pick it up. In this case, the finder had made it clear that he had become very attached to the bird and would be interested in keeping it. When I told the owner this, she immediately agreed to adopting the bird out to the finder. Yes, perhaps a bit of vested interest on behalf of the owner since the bird could no longer fly, but then again she could have used the bird as a breeder or sold it as a breeder but opted to allow the bird to become a beloved pet.

The third recent case is a Crested Roller (NPA 2005 RR 618 7) found in the Hollywood/Burbank area. This bird is registered to a man who lives in Grants Pass OR. He, also, was very happy to know that his bird had been found though he had no idea how it got to California from Oregon. He will be sending a shipping box and funds to ship the bird home to him. Nobody is going to go to this much trouble and spend $35-$40 in the process to get a bird back that they don't want.

I think we all have to use our heads and our intuition when trying to ascertain whether returning a bird is in the best interests of the bird .. usually that will be the case. If you sense that is not the case, then always give the owner a graceful way out by offering to keep the bird or to find it a good home.

Terry


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Not all breeders, fanciers of banded birds are "Scum"*



KLaw said:


> Basically, the practice with many many breeders is to pretend to want the bird back, and then they kill it as soon as they get it back. They consider the bird inferior because it got lost from the flock during a flight, or didn't finish a race. In their sick minds, the bird has culled itself, so I guess they think that means it deserves to have its head pulled off. If you read this link, you'll see what I mean, in the words of these breeders themselves. They even conspire to conceal the fact that the pigeon will be killed, when someone contacts them about a recovered bird, because they don't want their "image" to be tarnished in the public eye. In my opinion, these people are the scum of the earth, and personally, if I ever recover a banded pigeon that is injured or lost, I will not trace it to the breeder.


 Well Klaw, the other issue I have with your post is simply that you do not have your facts straight. I know hundreds of racing fanciers who are very responsible owners. To take a few quotes from various alleged pigeon owners, and to use those quotes to then paint the other 13,000+ racing fanciers in a very negative way, is not only very unfair, it is dishonest. 

If you think about it, your claim that breeders will go to all the trouble to recover the bird, for the only purpose to terminate it's life, does not make any logical sense. I also question the motives of the person or persons who are posting what they admit were in some cases privilaged communications. There is no way to verify that the quotes listed, were in fact from the actual named persons.

In closing, I appreciate your love and concern for pigeons. But, don't take as gospel everything that you read on the internet. You may find this hard to believe, but sometimes people with hidden agenda's do not always post the truth on the internet.


----------



## KLaw (Feb 12, 2006)

Warren, point taken. The people I referred to as "scum" are the ones who pretend to be interested and take the bird back, only to kill it in private. But I am sorry if I offended anyone who does not do these things, believe me it was not my intention to group all pigeon breeders into this category. I only want people who come here with no knowledge of the potential for this to happen, to have an opportunity to make an informed decision and ask questions before just returning a bird with no questions asked, thinking that the bird will live happily ever after. Many people who might want to adopt the bird would be hesitant to say so, if they didn't know about the possible fate that awaits it otherwise. 

But again, I'm sorry if I offended you and the other good people on this forum, it was not my intent. 

Kathy


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Those are great success stories, Terry.
I love those happy endings, wish they were all like this.

Reti


----------



## -s2- (May 5, 2005)

KLaw said:


> I'm really surprised that this would be suppressed, because the quotes were all in the breeders' own words. Don't people need to have this information in order to make a decision when they find a bird with a band?


Kathy,

The problem you are not seeing (or are unaware of) is that the info in the links you originally posted, was false. Those "quotes" were a combination of words out of context from back in the year 2000, and manufactured words from "Animal" Dave himself.

Many people in the Animal Rights fields go to great lengths to create negative PR images of those they don't agree with, without regard for the truth or the law. "Animal" Dave continues to violate Copyright laws when he posts others words (especially out of context, or when completely contrived) without their permission.

There is a reason why email message or forum posts cannot be used as legal evidence (just as photographs and sound recordings)... they can all easily be faked and created to make the intended person LOOK bad when in fact it is all a lie.

I'd suggest if you want to be involved in a real world way, you join the 911PigeonAlert Group and help with the recovery, and return of lost birds. THIS would be of great help to the birds, much more than reactionary speculation about 6 year old falsified "quotes" posted by an Animal Rights whacko.

I am one of many who are supposedly quoted by "Animal" Dave Ross, and I'm here to say, they are not accurate, contextual quotes.

-s2-


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Well, at risk of hi-jacking this thread... and stiring the pot a bit... what about this... 

If one comes by a lost, banded pigeon and traces the owner down by use of the bird's band number... what do y'all think about that person then asking the owner what will come of the bird if it is returned?


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> If one comes by a lost, banded pigeon and traces the owner down by use of the bird's band number... what do y'all think about that person then asking the owner what will come of the bird if it is returned?


I see nothing wrong with this very direct approach if you able to handle whatever answer you may get. For us less direct folks, I prefer just telling the owner that his/her bird has been found, what the condition of the bird is, where the bird is located, and then stating that I am happy assist in getting the bird back home or to find a good home for the bird if that is what the owner would prefer. Then it's up to the owner to tell me what s/he would like to do, but the owner has already been given an easy out if they want to take it.

JMO ..

Terry


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terry, 

Your post was wonderful and those success stories of the pigeons returned or will be returned to their owners, very nice to hear about.

I agree with you entirely, there are good and bad people in all walks of life. I think that the majority of pigeon fanciers are well respected and caring people who do what is right and ethical.

It's such a shame when you hear about the people who don't do right by their animals.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Great Examples*

Hello Terry,

Yes, thank you for pointing out the good success stories. Like a lot of things in life, if you look hard enough you can find something negative about anything. What is refreshing and uplifting, is when we go about looking for the good and the positive. 

Thank you Terry for giving examples of good, positive, uplifting examples of pigeons owners that have gone through some difficulty in order to do the caring loving thing ! I am sure, that giving and showing examples of owners who have shown great care and concern for their pigeons, is far more productive in terms of setting a good example. 

And I am sure, this would apply to all kinds of birds and animals, and for that matter people as well. I would much rather read in my local newspaper of a local hero who went above and beyond to help a fellow human being, then to read of the exploits of a local criminal thug. But sadly, the shock news value is not always there. 

So thank you again Terry for sharing with us, the success stories of how good people are making a difference, in a very positive way. And then when the opportunity presents itself, one of our readers can themselves go out and go above and beyond the call of duty in doing the "Right Thing" for our feathered friends. 

Like a famous saying or quote goes...Tis better to light a candle, then to curse the darkness.


----------



## -s2- (May 5, 2005)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> If one comes by a lost, banded pigeon and traces the owner down by use of the bird's band number... what do y'all think about that person then asking the owner what will come of the bird if it is returned?


It seams like a perfectly good question. That of course doesn't mean you'd get any kind of answer. It's no different than if you found a wallet full of money, and traced it back to the owner, and then thought you were entitled to know what the wallet owner was going to do with the money.

What if he was a gambler (and it was legal) and told you he would gamble it away... and yet you were morally opposed to gambling? Would you then decide to not return it? That would kind of translate to stealing don't you think?

If someone loses (misplaces, whatever) something that is theirs, and it is found, the moral obligation exists to return it, regardless of what the owner intends to DO with it.

Same holds true for someone who loses a gun, and you're opposed to shooting... or someone loses a beef cow, and you're opposed to eating beef... or someone losses anything else that belongs to them (is owned).

Pigeons are still property just as wallets, guns, money, beef cattle etc.

-s2-


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Good argument S2.

... but then why does that arguement then not extend to the culling of pigeons (e.g. its another person's property to do with what they want)... now I realize that question/comment is effectively retorical here since talk of culling here at Pigeons.Com is forbidden, somewhat naive, but the rules here just the same.

Anyway, I'll admit that I too stepped in it here on Pigeons.Com when it came to the related subject from KLaw's original post, the subject of found "strays". I learned some good things from that discussion, but I also learned that there is not a consensus amongst folks on exactly what to do with a stray and there are many that will be quick to tell you that you're wrong, or worse, if your course of action differs from theirs and their opinion.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

In my book, there is a considerable difference between an inanimate object and a living creature.

Anyway, this forum is not about property laws, but the care and welfare of pigeons. Let's stick to that.

S2 mentioned the 911 Pigeon Alert. Quite agree - it is a real help to fancier and pigeon. Just as is the shared knowledge and, frequently, practical help offered by folks on this forum.

John


----------



## KLaw (Feb 12, 2006)

"In my book, there is a considerable difference between an inanimate object and a living creature.
Anyway, this forum is not about property laws, but the care and welfare of pigeons."

Amen! And the quote from Warren about lighting a candle rather than curse the darkness? That is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do. Let's illuminate the darkness by NOT letting people stumble around trying to make decisions based on lack of information.

People come to Pigeon Talk looking for information on what to do when they find a pigeon, and these people often have no idea whatsoever that lethal culling even exists. All I'm saying is that they deserve to know that there is such a possibility, so that they will at least ASK the breeder if perhaps they can keep the pigeon themselves. Most people won't even ask that, because they assume (wrongly) that just because the pigeon has a band, the person really cared about it and wants it back very much. They have no idea that that MIGHT not be true. All I'm saying is that they should be made aware of the **possibility** of this practice, when they are given the information on our forum, about what to do when finding a pigeon. Imagine how they will feel when they hear, later on, after returning a pigeon, that many breeders do this awful thing. Then they have to wonder forever if that is what happened to the pigeon they returned. I would be really angry about NOT being told of the existence of this practice, when I trusted a source of information like Pigeon Talk. People have a right to know the truth and decide their actions based on all the facts. It can be made very clear to them that NOT all breeders do this, and that no one on our forum does it! But they have a right to know all the facts, and for us to simply ignore it like it doesn't exist, is to do all of those people--and the pigeons they are trying to help--a great disservice.

When I first found this forum, I looked at the sticky about what to do with a banded pigeon, and *because* there was no mention at all of the possibility of culling, I thought to myself "these people do it too, and they're trying to hide that fact by not even mentioning it". Can you see what I mean? That is the darkness that needs to be illuminated.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

KLaw said:


> "In my book, there is a considerable difference between an inanimate object and a living creature.
> Anyway, this forum is not about property laws, but the care and welfare of pigeons."
> 
> Amen! And the quote from Warren about lighting a candle rather than curse the darkness? That is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do. Let's illuminate the darkness by NOT letting people stumble around trying to make decisions based on lack of information.
> ...



KLaw, if you will look on the home page under "Avian Causes" and click on Viva La Pigeon, you will see that there is a reference to this practice and the alternatives to this practice. The fact of the matter is, even IF there was a section referring to "culling" it would be over looked by most people. Go through the threads and see how many times a month some one asks what to do with a baby pigeon or a found pigeon of any kind, whether it be feral or banded. Most people who find them selves with a sick or injured pigeon and get to this site, want a quick answer and don't want to take the time initially to read through the information here. After a "conversation" is started here in the forums, they will go and read the info. And I know that on many occasions when some comes here for info on a found banded bird, one of the first things they are told is to try to find out what the intentions of the owner are, if the owner is found. Believe me, I understand your concern more than you know.


----------



## -s2- (May 5, 2005)

John_D said:


> "In my book, there is a considerable difference between an inanimate object and a living creature. Anyway, this forum is not about property laws, but the care and welfare of pigeons."


John,

On that note, the "care and welfare" of a pigeon, within the confines of the animal cruelty laws, in the USA is still the business of the birds owners. So here's the rub on that one... if you think the owner is being cruel, feel free to turn them in to the appropriate law enforcement agency.

But in any case, you are still required to return their property to them, and are not permitted to decide yourself if you will withhold their bird from them.



KLaw said:


> People come to Pigeon Talk looking for information on what to do when they find a pigeon, and these people often have no idea whatsoever that lethal culling even exists. All I'm saying is that they deserve to know that there is such a possibility, so that they will at least ASK the breeder if perhaps they can keep the pigeon themselves.


Kathy,

I agree that information should NOT be withheld. So here's what I suggest that the folks be told.

1) when finding a lost (stray) pigeon, if it's banded, it's owned by someone and MUST be returned to them, that's the law.

2) the owner of a pigeon may or may not DO lots of things upon the return of this pigeon, and short of violating animal cruelty laws, they (the owner) are entitled to DO what they want with this pigeon, whether you approve of it or not.

3) if you are interested in adopting the stray you have found, communicate that to the birds owner in the hopes that they are willing to do that.




KLaw said:


> Imagine how they will feel when they hear, later on that many breeders do this awful [sic] thing. Then they have to wonder forever if that is what happened to the pigeon they returned. I would be really angry about NOT being told of the existence of this practice, when I trusted a source of information like Pigeon Talk. People have a right to know the truth and decide their actions based on all the facts.


They don't have to wonder Kathy, because you're going to tell them that it is a possibility (see above, item # 2) and it's "awful" only if they are emotionally invested in the found bird. 

So let's tell folks the "truth" that owners are entitled to do what they want (within the law) with their animals. High School FFA or 4H kids raise cows for market, and sell them, and they are "killed" and eaten. 

If you don't approve, then by golly don't go finding a lost cow. People (the finders) really need to get over the thought that they can control what other people (animal owners) DO based on their (the finders) own personal agenda and feelings. 

Not reality in America. Feel what you want, but obey the laws.

-s2-


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

> On that note, the "care and welfare" of a pigeon, within the confines of the animal cruelty laws, in the USA is still the business of the birds owners. So here's the rub on that one... if you think the owner is being cruel, feel free to turn them in to the appropriate law enforcement agency.
> 
> But in any case, you are still required to return their property to them, and are not permitted to decide yourself if you will withhold their bird from them.


S2 - I don't think you will find many people here, including me, disputing that an owner should be notified of their bird. 

My own experience is that we have several ex-racers in our rescue aviary, found injured or sick, where (a) the owner had no interest in getting the bird back or (b) the owner could not be found, or did not respond, despite the efforts of the RPRA (the racing organization in the UK). Only once, so far, have I spoken to an owner who wanted his pigeon back and he, in fact, assured me the bird would be well received.

I would endorse what has been said - talk to the owner and determine his/her intentions, if possible. 

If the finder doesn't like what they hear then, I guess, their own conscience will decide what they do.

John


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I had a bird return a few months back. He was sent out to a YB race in Oct, 2003 !  And he was in very good shape, plus he had a colored and numbered breeding type band on his leg in place of his microchip !! 

That means this dear boy, must have been hungrey and tired and stopped into some other racing loft for a bite to eat, and the owner of that loft must have thought to themself wow, what a nice bird, and decided to keep him. 

Somehow, some way he got out and came home. Now, was that a dirty trick to pull or what ?  Perhaps in that person's mind, it was finders keepers. I know some "humans" that feel the same way when they "find" a purebred dog.

Anyway, would I have appreciated a call concerning this two time diploma winner ? You bet ! Was it the bird's fault ? No...it was mine. Sometimes I wish I could "Cull" some pigeon owners.  

Perhaps I am a real "Odd Ball" caught between two pigeon worlds. I try my very best to take responsibility for the lives I bring into this world. If a bird just does not cut it in terms of future racing or breeding stock, I go to the trouble and expense to find a home. Any of my lost racers found anywhere are entitled to a 1st class air fare home, no questions asked. There are no "bad" pigeons here at at SFL USA, just poor management.  

There are owners in the racing faternity that do not follow that creed, but the answer is not name calling. The solution is love and understanding, and attempting to show a different road to travel. There was an incident several months ago with a found pigeon that was injured. I traveled to pick up the bird, and expended the time, energy and effort to bring the bird back to health, and give it a home. I discussed the situation with the owner, and explained my thinking on the value of life. Even one that may not fit the profile of what is considered "valuable" by the racing community.

Chaulk it up to some dreadful life experiences, during some very dark days of this country, when I was young and far from home. Also my experience since coming onto to this site. At any rate, we need to consider the possibility that we can have a positive impact on people by our positive actions. You can talk yourself blue in the face and not change anyone's views on a subject. 

It's not until they understand how much you care, that you have an opportunity to change a person's heart. So, when I referred to the lighting of a candle, it had nothing to do with attempting to expose the darkness. It had to do with showing the light that is contained within your very own soul. 

Don't know how this will read, or if my thought's will be understood. We have our work cut out for us, even within our own pigeon "Community". We are not going to be able to share our love and concern, by bashing owners over the head, which is all I am trying to share.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*A Bit (Well .. A Lot) More On AU 2005 SIM 523 ..*

Though I suspect the owner of this bird is probably an exceptionally dedicated and compassionate pigeon owner, I did want to share the entire story of this bird with you as it involved quite a number of people from start to finish.

I received a call from a school teacher in Fullerton CA on Tuesday, Feb. 14 regarding a banded pigeon found on the campus of the school where she teaches. Her name is Kenni B. and she stated that the bird appeared to be injured in some way and seemed to be unafraid of people. She stated that though she and the other teachers were keeping an eye on the bird and on the kids that she knew they weren't able to assure that none of the 800 students at this school wouldn't do something to hurt the bird. I advised her to go pick up the bird, place it in a box with an old towel or shredded papers, and see if someone could transport the bird to me. Kenni was able to pick up the bird with no difficulty, and it snuggled in a box in her classroom for the rest of the school day.

By the end of the school day no transport arrangements to me could be made so Kenni called her vet, a Dr. G. in Yorba Linda to see if he could examine the bird and provide any necessary medical treatment. Wow! What a lucky coincidence! Dr. G. is my friend Anita's vet, and she lives about 1/2 mile away from his office. I called Anita and made arrangements for her to pick the bird up from the vet when she got off work (she is also a school teacher) and bring it to me that evening.

Dr. G. examined the bird and found no problems aside from all but 2 tail feathers being missing and the bird being extremely thin.

AU 2005 SIM 523 duly arrived at my place on the evening of Valentine's Day and was settled in while I contacted the owner. I got the owner's recorder that day and left him a message about the bird. The owner is a Mr. George S. in Oceanside CA.

The next afternoon I was heading in to Smart and Final to do some shopping when George returned my call about the bird. He was ecstatic that the bird had been found and that so many people had made an effort to help his bird. George kept me on the phone for about 25 minutes .. in his own words he said "I'm old, I'm hard of hearing, I have heart problems, I live by myself, I love pigeons, and I'm hard as heck to get off the phone when anybody will talk pigeons to me"  . George then asked if I could look after the bird until Tuesday the 21st when he had to go to JEDDS in Anaheim for supplies as I am just off the freeway on the way to JEDDS. "Sure", I said .. "no problem". George says he will call me for directions in a couple of days.

Soooo, on Monday the 20th, I'm inside of SavOn picking up a few things when George calls again .. this time it's only a 20 minute phone call including George's theory of how the bird got to Fullerton from where it started and with lots of people giving me strange looks as I'm very loudly repeating, and repeating, and repeating my address and the directions to my home for George (remember that George is hard of hearing). Finally we're all set and George will pick up the bird in the morning between 9 and 10 AM. 

Sure enough, George arrives on Tuesday morning promptly at 9:30 AM to retrieve his bird. He checks the bird carefully and pronounces that her racing is over for this year as she needs time to get her weight back and regrow her tail feathers. He has brought me a gift of 50 pounds of pigeon mix stating again how grateful he is for saving his bird and how he knows that feeding all the birds can get expensive. He also asks for Kenni B.'s (the original rescuer) phone # so he can arrange to send her and her students a thank you card for helping his bird. I'm sure if he knew of Anita's involvement that she would be getting a card too and probably Dr. G. also! You really can't get much nicer or better than this!

So, to make this very long story come to an end .. this particular rescue took one caring and concerned person to save the bird and seek help, a vet to examine the bird, another rescuer to transport the bird, myself to care for the bird temporarily, and lastly a very caring owner to come and retrieve his bird. I hope I have the opportunity to meet George again at some point or at least talk pigeons to him on the phone. End of story  

Terry


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Terry, great story. Did you tell him he could join pigeon-talk and talk pigeons all he wants to?  

Maggie


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

I cannot speak for every other novice here, just myself... but I agree with the words above and commend y'all and others that make similar statements regarding strays... their retreval... proper care and course of action by the finder... taken at y'all's word (which I do) I have no doubt any of y'all would swim the Atlantic if one of your birds was found in say the UK or build a rocket to the moon if one of your birds strayed there; I'm sure I would too.

I've read many such disertations from many a board member here when ever the subject of strays comes up.

However... in other breaths, I've heard things like...

_...the Coopers around here, stay all year long. I have learned to live with it, which means I cuss and swear, but if the pigeons don't outfly the Cooper, *then the Cooper gets to eat them*..._

... from some of the same folk singing those yarns so positive and making things sound so heroic regarding strays and their return... but hawks, well, gee, if they eat a few of my birds, sure I'm upset, don't want it to happen, but shucks that happens sometimes... the bird should have been faster... that kinds sounds like the slow ones get cul... Ooops, I almost said the C-word.  

Yeah, I admit it, I'm stiring the pot, but two things...

1) I don't think anyone is saying that the welfare of a found stray isn't an important thing and that every effort should be made to find, contact and arrange the return of the stray. Failing that, if the bird is well cared for then remember, the bird is well cared for.

2) That being said though... when ever this subject comes up, there also seems to be an effort for some here to pontificate to the point of sounding almost sanctimonious on the subject... either knowingly or unknowingly. I'm not sure why that is.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terry, 

What a *WONDERFUL* lost and found story from start to finish, thank you for sharing all the details here! It's stories like these that really warm the heart and for myself, it affirms that there is a lot of goodness in people. 

George sounds like a truly devoted and wonderful pigeon keeper and you can't help but feel a little sorry for the old guy. Living alone, hard of hearing, just his birds for companionship...that'll be me one day I'm sure, lol! I thought it was very touching how he was so keen on keeping you on the phone to discuss all things "pigeon". 

For many of us, this forum provides us a place to talk to others about our passion for pigeons because many people in our own personal lives, just don't share our love or interest in them. Sounds like George was desparately reaching out to you as someone to connect with about pigeons. I bet he was as pleased as punch to talk to you, and just thrilled about all the efforts made to help his pigeon.

I'm with Maggie, see if he'd be interested in joining our forum...hopefully he has a computer or working knowledge of one.

Terry, this was a real feel good story and you must have felt so good about it all


----------



## Beans142 (Feb 4, 2006)

*Animal Rights Whacko?*



-s2- said:


> an Animal Rights whacko.
> 
> -s2-


I felt it necessary to respond to this. As an ardent animal rights activist myself, I just wanted to make it clear that this description does not apply to all of us.

Just as you are trying to say that all pigeon owners who breed and race are not ones who would destroy a lost pigeon returned to them, please don't do the same thing by insulting all the good, caring animal rights people (like me!)


----------



## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

I totally agree with Klaw's thoughts below:

"People have a right to know the truth and decide their actions based on all the facts. It can be made very clear to them that NOT all breeders do this, and that no one on our forum does it! But they have a right to know all the facts, and for us to simply ignore it like it doesn't exist, is to do all of those people--and the pigeons they are trying to help--a great disservice."

Thank God for the members whose main concern is the pigeons' welfare, & NOT being politically correct!

Phyll


----------



## rosiewesti (Feb 4, 2006)

*I understand..*

I think of where you are coming from, I have also been very wary of contacting an owner regarding a lost/injured bird, but after reading this thread, I will contact and say as has been suggested.

A few years ago, a racing pigeon turned up in my back garden, it stayed all day and as it got dark, it tried to get into my house, so I brought it in and put in a cage for safety (I had 3 cats then).
The next morning I put it back out and the same thing happened that evening and the next..I took a note of its number off the band on its leg and range the Pigeon club of GB, they gave me the contact details of the owner, who lived over 200 miles away.
He was a charming elderly gentleman, and asked me if I would the next day drive the pigeon to a field about 5 miles away and let it go , this I did, yes that evening it returned to me!
The man then told me to drive a minimum of 20 miles and release the bird, this I did, 4 days later I rang the man to check if the bird had arrived safely and was it ok? he said (his words- Yes it arrived and I rung its neck, when I asked why, he said - it was a racing pigeon, that was obviously no good as it got lost!
In future if this ever happens again I will, ask the owner would they like it returned or could I give it a home.
Rosiewesti


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*George Does Have A Computer ..*

I'm glad you all enjoyed the story of George and his beloved #523. George does have a computer .. I saw where he had printed out the directions to my place from one of the mapping sites .. guess I could have saved myself all the hollering of my address and directions  

I'll give him a call one of these days and just ask if he would care to join us here on Pigeon-Talk.

Terry


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

George is a true pigeon man, that's for sure.

You sure do get in some funny situations, Terry 

John


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

John_D said:


> You sure do get in some funny situations, Terry  John


Indeed, I do! I'll be out this evening trying to catch what sounds like a fancy breed pigeon that has been roosting on the mailbox of an elderly couple for about a week. They are afraid to handle the bird, so I guess I'll be making a trip to Garden Grove when it starts to get dark to see what I can do. This particular area is not a real good one in which to be running around in wielding a net after dark.

Terry


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

TAWhatley said:


> ...I'll be making a trip to Garden Grove when it starts to get dark to see what I can do. This particular area is not a real good one in which to be running around in wielding a net after dark.
> 
> Terry


Do be careful!!! Perhaps you should bring along your attack pug to discourage any problems.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Board Member not amused by snipe from peanut gallery*



ZigZagMarquis said:


> I've read many such disertations from many a board member here when ever the subject of strays comes up.
> 
> However... in other breaths, I've heard things like...
> 
> ...


 Hello Zig,

Sounds like you are referring to me...I am not sure, but may very well be my words...perhaps somewhat out of context, but never the less...I think they are mine. 

Assuming then that those are my words...you then very eloquently use the term "Pontificate to the point of almost sounding sanctimonious". I am not sure, if you are really asking a question, or you simply are pontificating your own sanctimonious self righteousness, consciously or subconsciously.

On the slim chance, you are asking a question in order to better understand these two very different issues, I will briefly explain the difference.

If one is to allow his or her pigeons to fly in a natural enviroment, where the Cooper hawk is a permanent resident. One has to realize that in such a situation there is nothing one can do to prevent a Cooper hawk from attempting to do what nature intended. This was on a thread I started concerning ways to prevent hawk attacks, for those who don't know. I do not believe that there are any legal means to prevent hawk attacks, all the tools, suggestions, ideals ever put forth, I am convinced do not work. Just like a hurricane coming up the coast, it is an "Act of God". Over the last three years, I have lost "only" two pigeons that I know of, even though I have seen a hundred or more attempts. I have accepted the fact that sooner or later it will happen again. It is nature.

Those things that I can control, like mailing a box and paying for a pigeon to be shipped home. Helping some other lost racer, and seeing to it, that it is cared for, finding homes for excess birds, well those are things I can control. If I sound "Sanctimonious" that was not my intention. Perhaps showing by example, or sharing a success story, that other racing fanciers might follow, yes that is my intention.

Perhaps you have simply not been sold on the ideal of doing such good works yourself, or you have, but have not been recognized, or you possibly resent me for some other reason, I do not know. If you do, you are not alone, as there are many within the racing community who do. Perhaps you are simply one who sits on the sidelines and takes shots at anyone who is doing something. If you were very active in rehab work, 911, or were a pillar of the racing community, perhaps, I might have to take pause and think, am I doing something wrong ? But, in your case, I am more inclined to think, that you are sitting behind that screen, with a chip on that shoulder, pounding away on that keyboard.  

But, now I have taken up enough time and space, responding to your little snipe. There are serious pigeon people here trying to make a difference, so if you have some personal issue with me, please feel free to vent @ [email protected]
and let these serious people get on with making a positive difference.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

TerriB said:


> Do be careful!!! Perhaps you should bring along your attack pug to discourage any problems.


"Attack pug"? That thing's more of a giant fire plug!

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pidgey said:


> "Attack pug"? That thing's more of a giant fire plug!
> 
> Pidgey


And he'd be just about as useful as protection  Still, I love my big Butchie boy!

Terry


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

*LOL Warren*

Warren... if it had been a snipe *at you* I would have said so, realize though that what you say is part of a public forum and can be referenced, but you chose to take it personally and you responded as you did to gain some favor or status or frustration I assume *and* have done such a good job setting yourself up as the victim I couldn't possibly say anything that most wouldn't take as me beeing jerkish... so I won't even try.

No, I won't move this to a PM to you as I don't wish to talk to you about it furter, but yes, I will keep it here for the consideration of others.


What I was saying...

1) I agree that efforts, even extraordinary, on the parts of a finder or owner of a stray to get that stray back home are a good & right thing to do. I would do so myself.

_However, if a pigeon strays and a finder takes the bird in gives it care and a good home or finds it a home and by what ever reason doesn't pursue tracing it via its band number... out of ignorance, tried but failed, didn't really try, was afraid that the bird would be culled if returned, what ever... *and there was no malice* involved on their part... say all you want about laws this, laws that, someone else's property!... again, if there's no malice involved on the part of the finder... I say "So What", the finder certainly isn't to be villified or called a theif like some of the discussions here regarding strays not returned would imply._

2) I agree that the realities of pigeon keeping and/or racing mean that one is going to lose some birds when letting them out to fly (training, exercise, etc.) or race them... predation, injury, or they just plain get lost and starve (reader, add on what ever other reasons y'all can think of).

_However, I find it somewhat of a dichotomy that pigeon keepers / racers say "that's the way it is sometimes" when it comes to bird losses, but then in a discussion of strays, come across as sounding like someone who finds a banded stray racing pigeon beter die trying to trace that bird's owner and get it home; sactimonious is the word I chose before, possibly a bit strong, but I still feel accurate. Having restated that though in different words please note, again, it doesn't take away from anyone's efforts to get a stray home. The more I think about it, and I'm entitled to my opinion even if it differs for someone else's no matter how much angst it may cause someone else, the talking about it so much part and in such terms (hey look at me ain't I great!) just sounds like a rationalization to quel one's conscience over some guilt of having these living things in one's charge and then sending them out into the wild where they can be lost, killed, injured and die. Again, I say I would help to get a stray home myself, but what I've learned is I'd be humble about it, that's just me._


In shorter, other words...

Yes, I mean to sound pragmatic on this subject, the _adj_ definition... and yes, good on folks out there for getting strays home, but yes, I do think sometimes folks sound a little pragmatic, the _n_ definition, when talking about themselves in realation to this subject here.

_Accolades no matter how great and glorious are best accepted and spoken of by oneself with humility. -- Zen by Zig_


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Don't get to excited or enthusiastic you braggers !*



ZigZagMarquis said:


> ....... I'm entitled to my opinion even if it differs for someone else's no matter how much angst it may cause someone else, the _talking about it so much part and in such terms (hey look at me ain't I great!)_ just sounds like a rationalization to quel one's conscience over some guilt of having these living things in one's charge and then sending them out into the wild where they can be lost, killed, injured and die. Again, I say I would help to get a stray home myself, but what I've learned is I'd be humble about it, that's just me.[/I]
> 
> Yes, I mean to sound pragmatic, the _adj_ definition.


 Thanks for sharing that with us Zig. It provides all of us a better insight into why you say some of the things you do.  

I personally enjoy reading the "Success Stories", and reading about the positive actions of others. I don't think they should as you say "Be humble about it", I hope they continue to share with the rest of us. If we get to enthusiastic, I am sure you will pull us back to pragmatic reality.


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

KLaw said:


> I read the sticky about how to trace the owners of banded pigeons, but I have to ask about it. When the hen that I have now was found by my friend, she had a broken wing and other injuries. I suggested to my friend that the owner might be traceable through the band number, but my friend was reluctant to do that, fearing that the bird might be destroyed by the owner/breeder. I naively thought that that couldn't possibly be the case, but then I did an online search and found this, among other information:
> 
> [url]
> [url]
> ...


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> I saw where he had printed out the directions to my place from one of the mapping sites .. guess I could have saved myself all the hollering of my address and directions
> 
> I'll give him a call one of these days and just ask if he would care to join us here on Pigeon-Talk.
> 
> Terry



LOL!!!! Terry, you really have to tell this guy to join the forum...he sounds perfect for here and I think he'd love nothing more than to ramble and post about his birds, talk pigeon's till the cows come home and probably has a lifetime of experience to share with us

I like this George character already and I don't even know him!!!!


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> I like this George character already and I don't even know him!!!!


Hi Brad and all .. yes, George is a very fine gentleman. I'll ask him if he would like to join when I have another half hour or so to talk to him on the phone  He would come with a lifetime of experience, and I'm sure great knowledge of many things pigeon.

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Let's Take This Just A Bit Further ..*

It seems that the pigeon racers have taken the brunt of any negativity in this thread, and I would like to be sure that everyone knows that there are lots of other kinds of banded pigeons aside from racing pigeons.

The AU and the IF are the primary racing pigeon organizations in the U.S. The NPA is probably the major show/fancy pigeon organization, and the NBRC the primary Roller pigeon organization. Add to these a whole bunch of specialty organizations and a whole bunch of people who purchase customized bands, and you have a real challenge in tracing some of the bands. The AU, IF, and NBRC bands are generally a piece of cake .. you usually get the owner on the first try or someone who knows who the current owner is (bird was sold or whatever). With the NPA .. not so .. the NPA itself keeps excellent records of who they sold the bands to .. the problem comes with their distributors and their members being less than diligent in their record keeping (certainly not all of them but many).

I cannot begin to tell you how many birds I have traced to the original purchaser of the band only to be told .. "I sold that bird" .. "I gave that bird away" .. "I don't keep very good records .. I don't know who the current owner might be". So at that point, the bird has to go up for adoption by the finder or to someone else.

Then there are the many, many unbanded birds who are clearly not ferals or feral mixes .. no way to find the owner, and here again, you have to put the bird up for adoption. My recent rescue, Pantera, is a good example. This is =not= a feral bird and probably belongs to someone in the neighborhood where I got the bird from .. I have no way to find the owner .. ads in the paper and flyers on the light posts just don't work .. bringing me to the next point ..

Here in Southern California there are lots of non-English speaking pigeon fanciers and owners. I can muddle through a bit of Spanish, but I am lost with any of the Asian languages. When I am able to trace a band to one of the non-English speaking people, I usually end up speaking with a young child in the household who is the only one who understands English enough to even talk to me. Trust me .. trying to tell an 8 year old about a found pigeon and trying to make arrangements while he or she is trying to translate to the older family members is very trying and usually not successful.

I guess a portion of what I am trying to impart to you all is that I started out as a less than amenable person with regard to those who kept banded pigeons of any type .. I've had to learn a lot, and I've had to trust some people a lot. I'm happy to say that my trust has not been misplaced and that by responsible pigeon fanciers and rescue/rehab people coming together, we have made a much bigger difference for the good of pigeons than either group could have done on their own. The bottom line is that we need each other, and the birds need all of us.

Think about it.

Terry


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Brad and all .. yes, George is a very fine gentleman. I'll ask him if he would like to join when I have another half hour or so to talk to him on the phone  He would come with a lifetime of experience, and I'm sure great knowledge of many things pigeon.
> 
> Terry


 Now Terry,

Just make sure if he has ever raced pigeons, that he is very humble. Cause if he ain't, it just might git a bit pragmatic around here y'all know what I mean ? 

I mean I can not speak for every other novice here, except myself, but I hope he don't say nothing good about himself, if y'all know what I mean ? Like he might stir the pot the a bit..y'all know what I mean ?  So, I hope his skin is a little tougher then most.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Now Terry,
> 
> Just make sure if he has ever raced pigeons, that he is very humble. Cause if he ain't, it just might git a bit pragmatic around here y'all know what I mean ?


Too funny, Warren! George has raced pigeons for probably 50 years or more .. he says he's getting too old for it and is going to settle in with his Show Homers .. so not to worry  Maybe you'd like to buy some of his racing stock  

Terry


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well Terry,

I just question and look at the dichotomy of a man going from real racers to show racers, later in life. It's as if he is saying he was all about show...all along.... .


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well Terry,
> 
> I just question and look at the dichotomy of a man going from real racers to show racers, later in life. It's as if he is saying he was all about show...all along.... .


We'll see, Warren .. don't know. Maybe he'll give me #523 and I'll become a racer .. you never know .. Any comments on my long post?

Terry


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Way out there ?*

Terry,

I confess, I am still trying to digest it. I am also trying to understand those who are opposed to anyone who keeps and breeds pigeons, and places a band on their legs. 

In terms of political correctness, I don't know if that means they are way to the left or way to the right. But, they are certainly on the fringes. I always felt that this forum should be open to a very wide vararity of ideals, as sometimes even I will be moved more towards their way of thinking. 

However, there is an element, which would advocate the turning out of all domesticated pigeons, and there would only be one kind in the future, the feral. Which in turn would revert back over time to the rock dove. 

I don't know, if in their thinking, that they would also apply this to every domesticated animal or not. If that would be the case, many domesticated animals would soon cease to exsist in the wild state...so I am just trying to come to grips, with the logic.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Warren,

I was just trying to figure out what you were talking about and have assumed it was this statement from me:

_I guess a portion of what I am trying to impart to you all is that I started out as a less than amenable person with regard to those who kept banded pigeons of any type _

I can see how that might have been construed as me saying I was against anyone keeping domesticated birds .. that is definitely not the case. What I was attempting to get across was that I had some less than good experiences with owners of banded birds in my early days of rescuing pigeons and had pretty much convinced myself that all owners of banded pigeons were a**holes .. turns out I couldn't have been more wrong .. 

I am very grateful to all the responsible pigeon owners who have allowed me to change my once very unfavorable opinion.

Terry


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Terry,

I was not referring to you, or that sentence exactly. But, there are people stuck in the position that you were at. Some of it comes through on the various posts, and on various web sites out there. 

Once you have your web site and email exposed to the world to see, you also get some "hate mail". Makes you want to circle the wagons. 

I agree we need both sides to work for the welfare of the pigeons, but I can also see why there is little middle ground. It is much more easy, to simply assign yourself to one camp or the other. 

From my perspective at times, it would seem easy to be an arm chair activist, sitting in front of a computer screen. Quite another to as they say, "Put your money where your mouth is". May be getting close to getting off topic here, but I sometimes feel frustrated with those who suggest that I am one of the bad guys, when I sacrifice an ungodly amount of time and money to do the right thing. 

While their contribution consists solely of pushing down on some keys on a keyboard. I have years and years of savings tied up in the housing, care, training, breeding stock, etc etc. Don't know how to articulate the situation, or the feeling. Maybe it is like the farmer who the suggestion is made to turn all his cow's loose, and move off the land, cause he is inhumane to the cow's. Then the same person, who makes such a suggestion wants a glass of milk with his cereal in the morning !


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks, Warren .. I understand now!

Terry


----------



## KLaw (Feb 12, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Maybe it is like the farmer who the suggestion is made to turn all his cow's loose, and move off the land, cause he is inhumane to the cow's. Then the same person, who makes such a suggestion wants a glass of milk with his cereal in the morning !


That is the most insane analogy I've ever heard. You clearly know nothing at all about animal activists.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Am I Insane or Was it my Analogy*



KLaw said:


> That is the most insane analogy I've ever heard. You clearly know nothing at all about animal activists.


 Hello Klaw,

Since I was trying to articulate a "Feeling" that I had, and you take exception to my analogy to describe my emotional state. What analogy can you offer that better describes the way I feel, in my situation ?

If you are in a better position to articulate my emotional state of mind, I certainly would like to hear about it. From my perspective though, that would seem more insane then my analogy. But, I am willing to keep an open mind on the matter. 

Just to be sure we are on the same page, so you can provide me with a better analogy, make sure you read my post again, and the post of Terry's I was responding to. Then make sure in addition, that it is your wife who takes the nasty phone call, because of my hobby. Because you see, in addition to the "Hate Mail" I get calls at the house at times. So, keep some of that in your mind as you formulate an analogy which will express the frustration in my feelings.


----------

