# All Good Things



## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Well, they're gone.

Last Saturday night we detoured to feed our feral flock, and we found a large, perfect circle of cracked corn on the black-top. Judy and I immediately suspected Avitrol.

We bought a dust pan and used the windshield scraper brush and cleaned up the poison.

We distributed the seeds/legumes we'd bought, in a nearby park.

Office Max personnel conveniently knew
"nothing". I've spent 2K at that store in the past three years. That ends now.

Judy checked during the week and found "nothing".

Tonight--I mean last night--we stopped by again. This time we had a 1,000,000 candle flood lamp. While there was no poison, we did see coils and fans of sheet metal, in the usual roosts, to deter the pigeons.

Clearly, they are gone. 

No small souls in need of help were to be found. I don't know where they are. Perhaps many were spared poisoning.

This was our adopted flock. For a long while now, we've fed them and shared the joy of "just being" with them.

I've said many times, that there is a breed of people out there that will not rest until this world is plated and paved, and sterile as a new Lexus. I've also said that I would not care to live in such a world. This is anecdotal, but has anybody seen "Minority Report"? Great Movie, and great work by Cruise and Spielberg. But would any of you care to live in THAT world?

At any rate, sleep comes hard now. I learned as a child that all good things end, but this troubles me deeply. It scrambles my moral compass. It rocks my fragile world.

I find myself at our local Pick N' Save, lingering at the wild bird seed and dried legumes, to no end now. And it hurts the very core of me.

Where the hell are they?

Today was in the 20's. But It has been below zero these past nights. 

Are they okay? Because somehow it matters that they are okay. Somehow, I who am not even vegetarian, worry deeply that they are okay.

It has been said that all grief is ultimately self-serving, and if that's so, I'm just indulging mysef, again. But somehow they matter to me--a lot.

It could be that that squat little shape on the road that fateful day in Waukesha, Wisconsin, changed everything. And those eyes--God, those incredible eyes! No bird in this house (there are now twenty) regards a person like Bernie does--look upon me with such probing depth, affection and regard. One is not looked upon--one is truly "regarded". Once while doing dishes, I heard Judy say, "Who are you?"

One chapter of our book will be entitled, "Mystic Pigeon".

Well, there it is. Not a very logical post--perhaps a reality check, instead. Perhaps plenty dumb, in retrospect. But I'll leave it at that. 

I'll leave it with a wish too. A wish that is very dear to me:

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

How incredibly tragic Ray. We are part of a very destructive species. We have overpopulated this planet more than any other creatures (except insects) and we are just unable to share it with any creatures that are as successful as we are. I feel for you and Judy. You must take comfort in the fact that you helped this flock tremendously and there are others who share your sorrow.


Brad

[This message has been edited by Pigeonpal2002 (edited January 26, 2003).]


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Ray,
I know how you are feeling. I've experienced very similar events. There is very little I can say that would console you. When I see these things happen, there isn't much I can say or do. I just feel plain lousy so what am I going to say to you?
There is one possiblility and that is a hawk may have fragmented the flock. I see that often and there are many times that I wonder where my adopted flock went. I'm praying that is the case and the greatest wish I have for you is that you see the flock eating the seed.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

This must be such a shock...And so sad









I have only witnessed a poisoned pigeon once and it's horrific, I never want to think of what even happened at the time.

A whole flock wipped out like that! That's AWFUL..

I can't imagine what you and Judy must be feeling right now..









Mary :'''(


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Ray,
As usual, "you have said it all".
There is nothing to add except that pigeons are survivors, they will go on.
It is good to share a planet with "those" who will always provide help and hope to these wonderful creatures.
Regards,
Carl


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## sirpigeon (Jan 25, 2002)

Dear Ray & Judy,

I know what you're going through.It's sad that some people can be so cruel and ignorant.I thank God for kind people such as you.You make this world a better place.
Despite cruel people,predators,and disease the pigeons will live on.
My prayers are with you.
Jeff


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Dear Ray,

I am so sorry Ray. This is what we all fear the most when we feed a feral flock and the "deterrents" sound ominous. But I really hope and pray that you are wrong and that another pigeon lover has happened by and left genuine food for them so that, replete, they went elsewhere. That is what has happened occasionally with my flock.

But if it is poison, can we kick up an almighty fuss? I don't see how we can be quiet about modern day horrors such as the poisoning of birds that are considered to be "too plentiful"...what a crime! Someone will have seen something and be able to tell you exactly what has happened and who is responsible.

Cynthia

------------------
_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Different pest control companies will treat grain to destroy pigeons. They would be under contract of the building owner or renter to do so. And if enclosers have been put in place to keep the birds from roosting and nesting I would suspect this may be the case. Poisan grain has been put in place since the 1970s that I know of. Sad but true. In some areas falcons have been brought in to help control the pigeon population. Then the falcons them selfs create some problems. !0 of one half a dozen of the other. To help really in the large pigeon populations. One should capture and move Or offer to privete individuals. Pigeons also fall under state control in different areas. Pastes, dummy owls and such has been put in place to deture the birds. Works for awhile then they figure it out. Contract trappers come in sometimes and trap large numbers of birds. Then sell them many times to bird dog breeders to train there dogs. As flocks get larger citys and privat people try control methods. This would be hard to stop. So a better idea to the problem would be the safe bet answer. You could probably capture hundreds of pigeons a week in many large cities. Some one would have to adopt them. Might not be a bad thing as with a hobby of pigeons its a good stress releaver. and keeps kids off streets to. But would still be a hard thing to do. Some people just do not want a lot of pigeons around. So the few that do can enjoy the ones we have and get others to enjoy the same is all we can do sometimes. Just tell your friends they are a great hobby . And maybe they will get some to.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ray and Judy,

I'm so sorry this happened to your adopted flock. Hopefully most of them took off for better surroundings and did not ingest any of the poison. Still, I am sure some number of them have been lost to this despicable act.

In spite of the Office Max employees claiming no knowledge, I would make my feelings known in writing to the store manager including the fact that I would no longer be shopping in their establishment and my reasons for this action.

Terry Whatley


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## critterlover2 (Jan 15, 2001)

Dear Ray,

You know that I know only too well how you are feeling right now, and I am sorry for that.

My only hope is that you little flock has temporarily moved to greener pastures only to return soon.

I hate this time of year, I have dreaded it for 3 years now and it's very stressful on me. First they target the crows, next the pigeons then the starlings ( I had always thought they were swallows)

This article appeared on the front page of our paper yesterday (I hope it comes through ok, you know how inept I am with computers thingys)
http://newzcentral.com/articles/2003/01/25/front/daily01.txt 

My very best to you, Judy and the little ones,

Terri


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## Wild Dove (Apr 9, 2002)

Dear Ray and Judy,
I have wept again, and am ashamed to be a creature of such sorrows.
Wild Dove


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## aloft (Mar 1, 2002)

Dear Ray and Judy,

There are no words good enough to express my sorrow for what happened to you and your beloved pigeons... This is not just a crime against animals. This is a crime against God and showing no mercy for the perpetrators, I hereby wish them to end in the same tragic way. Nothing more and nothing less. It is my gut feeling that sooner or later the human race will pay a dear price for all the crimes committed against innocent animals. What bothers me is that special, loving and caring people like you and all our friends will have to share the general fate...
May all these criminals and bloody animal killers not catch the day of tomorrow!

I'm crying with you and for you and your beloved little angels...

Ely


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Terri,

That link didn't work for me .. got a 404 file not found error.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

It came through for me.
Titled: NewsCentral.com
Heading: Hanford to Target Crows.
Cindy

Terry, I attempted to email the article to you. Hope you received it.



[This message has been edited by AZWhitefeather (edited January 27, 2003).]


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by raynjudy:
> *Well, they're gone.
> 
> ... I've said many times, that there is a breed of people out there that will not rest until this world is plated and paved, and sterile as a new Lexus ...
> ...


That is very chilling!!! I'm very sorry Ray & Judy.

Julie


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Thank you all for your most kind replies. You understand perfectly.

Subsequent observation confirms that the flock has been severely fragmented, if not entirely decimated.

But no further poisoning is evident.

Since gulls are protected and sometimes share the lots with the pigeons, Judy believes we may have an angle to stop further poisonings. Gulls will eat bird seed when the pickings are slim and the temperatures drop. So maybe... 

Locally, the debate as to whether the gulls are "rats with wings", is trotted out routinely. 

What about the rats with cars? The rats with jobs? The rats with career objectives? The rats that run over one another at five o'clock? The rats so centered on themselves, that to care about a pigeon, or a crow, or a gull, is unthinkable? Oh, yeah, they're at the top of the food chain--for now. 

Perhaps some day, when we're done impressing ourselves, a shared sense of stewardship for this planet and the creatures that share it will prevail. One can only hope.

Terri, I did locate and read the article.







West Nile Virus took an awful toll on our local crow population. Crows have not been an "issue" here since...

The natural record is most telling: Extinction is the norm. I think it's sad that we would choose to emulate that process.

In particular, pigeons have come so far across time with us, as allies, and partners, and icons of peace and hope, that one would hope there would be some reverence for them, or at least respect. I guess that's what this wonderful forum's all about.

Feral, Racer, Show-Bird, Bestest Buddy--pigeons in all their forms are cherished here, and perhaps preserved for what's to come.

Thanks again for your caring and support.

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ray,

I don't know where you live but there must be other seed eating birds that are rare and protected, as well as protected birds that would feed off the poisoned pigeon. Have you kept some of the grain as evidence? It would be wonderful if you were able to turn this tragedy into a victory that would prevent further poisonings! However, there is always the possibility that the pigeons were lured down with grain to be netted and destroyed, which would be harder to fight. They do that is a market town near me.

Cynthia


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Would it be I had enough time to pursue this aggressively. I do not; at least, right now.









More later.

--Ray


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

I wanted to consider this carefully before saying anything. But I believe I may have found them--a scant block and a half away!

Here's how it went...

The week after I'd reported this tragic event, one of the gals Judy works with told her that her dad complained that, "out of nowhere" pigeons descended on their back yard and garage, and hung out for two days, disappearing before dark. Her dad's retired and lives in West Allis. He repeatedly chased them away. 

The location described above is quite close to the home of our displaced feral flock.

In the days that followed my post here, Judy and I, according to our schedules, had looked for our little friends, and the flock appeared to have been decimated, or at best heavily fragmented. 

We even swept up the poison Office Max had put down on two occasions. 

The newly placed anti-pigeon coils and fans confirmed our suspicions that our little friends had been poisoned and driven away from their home (Office Max). Had any survived?

Then word came; the above-mentioned situation was described to us. 

I guess there is always hope. So, maybe...

Yesterday, on my way to work a Trade Show, I took the long way. I spotted on the Good Year sign, a feral flock. The sign had been a favorite roost for our friends. There were nineteen pigeons in all, lined up south to face the sun, on a clear 15-degree afternoon. 

Among the individuals spotted, were the enormous white and solid black forms of two distinctive pigeons--just as there had been in our flock. The number of this flock is roughly half of what ours was. But there they were, just the same.

I toured the Office Max parking lot. No more poison. The baffles remain in place.

These locations, as described, are seconds apart as the pigeon flies!

Having slept on this, I believe we've found what's left of our adopted feral flock. As many of you predicted in your efforts to comfort and console us, they have indeed survived. Hell, they've done better than that--they've prevailed!

As I consider the little souls that died that terrible death, on the coldest of days, I ache at the very core of my being. But I rejoice in the resiliency and irrepressible spirit of the tiny beings, that refuse to give up, and refuse to just entirely "go away".

They remain. They remain as if they belong--and they know it. Even if we've forgotten over time, that we brought them here, won their trust, and forged an alliance with our Oldest Feathered Friends. For them at least, the memory lives on.

It will probably be their doing, not ours, that this planet shares itself with...

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## Charmily (Nov 14, 2002)

Dear Ray,
I am soo glad that your flock has survived & prevailed, although smaller. I felt so bad at the news, you & Judy had been so close to them. Thank God there are people like you out there willing to help a flock, not just survive, but to investigate the who & what of the piosoning. You are a hero for pigeons everywhere.


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## Eileen (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by raynjudy:
> *.
> What about the rats with cars? The rats with jobs? The rats with career objectives? The rats that run over one another at five o'clock? The rats so centered on themselves, that to care about a pigeon, or a crow, or a gull, is unthinkable? Oh, yeah, they're at the top of the food chain--for now.
> 
> ...



I am also saddened and ashamed at how humans can't share this world with anything else. Between invitro fertilization, the new cloning issue - we should all live forever
and take over the world, and who cares about other species? I am glad I won't live forever, the thought of that sterile concrete world is one I never want to be in.

But er- I have pet rats and would not compare them to many members of our human society. Rats are sweet, compassionate, care about each other, groom each other. Even wild rats will share food with each other, and the head rat will test a new food out before the rest to make sure it is OK and not poisoned. How many people do you know that would do that?

In a sociology class, they showed an infamous video experiment where people were supposed to press a button to shock the person on the other side of the wall. Even though it appeared that the people being shocked were yelling "OW!" most of the people continued to press the button if they were told to do so.

Yet when this same experiment was done on rats, none of the rats would continue to press the lever if it meant causing pain to another rat.
Sorry to get on my soapbox but I hate that
"rats with wings" phrase. Pigeons are great in their own beauty, to call them rats with wings alludes that rats are not.

On a positive note: I am also a HUGE crow lover and have been saddened that we've lost I think about 90% of our population due to West Nile. But I just learned that the population is growing again. The 10% who survived are reproducing and seem to be immune to WNV. Let's hear it for a strain of super-crows!!!


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Thanks, Charmily!









Ray & Judy, Bernie, Cosmo & Ally


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Dear Eileen:

You are right, of course. I used the term as a metaphor, coined from local media on the gull/pigeon issue. I took a certain license with that phrase, to make a point. 

Sorry.

I know that rats can be very sweet; and your point about their sensibilities is well taken. 

If memory serves, you're referring to the Milgrim[sp] a/k/a Eichman[sp] experiment, where the proper setting could induce innocent humans to inflict suffering on innocent humans, with very minimal prodding. It has been proved again and again, just as you've said, that humans will do this.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

Anecdotal: One of my favorite Frasier episodes is the one where we learn (too late to avoid hard feelings, of course!) from the progressive reading of their deceased mother's diary, that Niles and Frasier were named after mom's beloved research rats.









Best regards,

Ray


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## critterlover2 (Jan 15, 2001)

Dearest Ray and Judy,

My heart is heavy with sorrow for your fallen feathered babes. The same vision you have of the painful, torturous death of these innocent creatures, is burned into my mind also.

On the other hand my heart and soul stand and cheer for the ones that survived!! They always come back, Ray. That is one thing that I have always counted on when they poison here. There are hundreds of pigeons in this ever growing town one day, then hard to find, very scarce the next. Given a couple of months and my beauties come back in abundance and once again fill the sky and my heart once again. Almost in defiance of those that are so determined to be rid of them. They are triumphant and they will prevail...no matter what evil imposes upon them...they consume my heart...

I am very pleased for you, Ray









Best
Terri


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Terri, you just nailed it. Beautifully said.

These special beings sure evoke emotion in some of us, don't they?

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## Eileen (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by raynjudy:
> *Dear Eileen:
> 
> You are right, of course. I used the term as a metaphor, coined from local media on the gull/pigeon issue. I took a certain license with that phrase, to make a point.
> ...


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## teply (Mar 28, 2002)

I was a cop for 26 years and spent all of it patroling downtown Omaha. During routine building checking I was up on many business roofs that had avitrol corn on their roofs. The owners would tell me it just disorients the pigeons and keeps them away.
Over the years of patroling I picked up dozens of "disoriented" pigeons and took them home. All the symtoms were the same and every single bird died within 12 hours.
Did you have the feed checked? 
I think it is dispicable that there is not a law againest poisoning pigeons. 
Feral pigeons , starlings and English sparrows are the only birds that are not protected againest poisoning in the United States.
Mike 

------------------
teply


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

"I hope I didn't make you feel bad when you already were saddened..."

Not remotely. Your point was well taken.

Still, I may use the "rat" metaphor, now and again, as it makes a lucid point. But I will be careful about doing so.









--Ray


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

"Did you have the feed checked?"

No. We know what it is and the circumstances in which it was distributed. The railroads do the same thing...

It is possible to save some of them. Our very own Terri brought a pigeon back from Avitrol poisoning.

If one knows how to tube feed and crop rinse, one has a shot at saving a poisoned pigeon, provided the symptoms are in the early stages.

There are poison treatment protocols. To learn more, look up "tube feeding" on this site's search engine. There is a lengthy post describing the tube feeding and crop rinsing technique. These are skills that must be mastered before rescue can be attempted, as misjudging these things will kill the pigeon as well.

The "treatment" involves crop rinsing and tube feeding (a/k/a crop feeding) an activated charcoal slurry, to absorb the poison. 

Cool temperatures and low lighting are part of the effort (plus many more details). You can get activated charcoal already powdered, in capsule form, at GNC and the like. Terri acquired activated charcoal in Walmart's aquarium section, and ground it up finer. Like I said, the pigeon lived!









Diazepam (a/k/a valium) can be given to treat the seizures, but I haven't a clue how to dose a pigeon with valium! 

"I think it is dispicable that there is not a law againest poisoning pigeons."

I couldn't agree more!









--Ray


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## Thesis79 (Jul 16, 2020)

raynjudy said:


> Well, they're gone.
> 
> Last Saturday night we detoured to feed our feral flock, and we found a large, perfect circle of cracked corn on the black-top. Judy and I immediately suspected Avitrol.
> 
> ...


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