# Phoebe post surgery update



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe is still at Medical Center for Birds. Dr. Speer said she is doing ok. Her appetite is so so, her posture still indicates pain, her breathing is normal, her mental ion is ok. We received Tramadol today for her when she comes home, hopefully Saturday depending on how she is doing. Have read that people here have posted that Tramadol can cause kidney problems.??


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

My mother is on tramadol and it is what it is, all meds come with certain risk, but you do it for the greater good as pain can be the leader of going down hill, not eating and fading or dying anyway so we take the risk, you can give them as long as she needs them and if she starts showing no pain symptoms between doses, you can ask vet to cut out or wean her off accordingly, but thank god for pain meds when needed. Dont worry. Vets usually have a clue as to what is good for them, or safest at the time. Better to give than not.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe is finally starting to eat again. She is still on Tramadol and meloxicam plus omega 3s and isoxuprine. She was looking unhappy and losing weight because food didn't appeal to her, not Zupreem or a variety of pigeon, cockatiel, and budge seed mixes. Tried hand feeding with Kaytee hand feeding formula which she resisted. Went and bought all kinds of "birdie crack" that is, treat seeds, which she is not supposed to have. She immediately started eating and filled her crop. She looks so much happier. She really likes Ecotrition tropical fruit and seed food supplement for parakeets. But the fat content is over 7% so can't let her eat that very long. Am so glad she is eating as she was losing ground. Was afraid we were going to lose her. She is still our Phoebe the Wonderbird.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Great that she is eating. Maybe she just needs you to get her started, and she will eat her regular food soon. Here's hoping.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't know much about Phoebe's injuries, but very sorry to hear how hurt she's been and what you've been through worrying about her. Not sure if this helps, since you seem to have sorted out her diet, but traumatised birds need a lot of extra protein during healing, up to 50% more I read in one study. Some parrot pellets have 25% protein in them, if you can get her eating something like that as a supplment? My pigeons do like the pellets but they are expensive, so I've only fed this to badly injured or sick birds.

I was on tramodol once for major abdominal surgery due to an accident. It was extremely good for the pain. Interesting how many drugs humans use that are good for birds too.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Will try to increase the protein Phoebe gets. Glad the tramadol is effective for pain. She has a full crop for the first time in many days!


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Thats great news.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe continues to hold her own. She is healing very very slowly from her recent surgery. She has begun going up,on her box next to the window which she loves doing, with a ramp. She is eating on her own and gaining a few grams per day, although it is still seed treats and not the low fat pellets we would prefer. She is still on two pain meds. We are hoping we can give her a great quality of life for as long as possible. She is a lovely sweet bird who we love dearly.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Are you able to mix the pellets with the seeds and see if she will take any, good news tho and happy to hear it....


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

She gained over 8 gm today. Am mixing the pellets and seeds together and she picks out what she wants. Am so hoping despite the xanthomas still inside her that she will feel ok for a long time. The deslorelin seems to be working. She is also still on isoxuprine, meloxicam, tramadol, and omega 3s. She seemed happier today but still has a humpy back. She hates me because I'm the med giver and my significant other is the food giver. She seems more alert and energetic. Shes been home for a week and had surgery I think two weeks ago tomorrow.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe still is doing well, getting better very slowly. She is wolfing "birdie crack" (parakeet seed treat) but is stubbornly refusing to go back to the Zupreem cockatiel. Am so happy to see her eating! We eat "together" (I watch and tell her she's a good birdie). Am so hoping the xanthomatosis will leave her alone for a while now and that I can start phasing out the Tramadol. She is still on isoxuprine, meloxicam, and omega 3's.Any tricks for switching a sick bird from seed back to pellets? Have mixed them up...she has great vision and picks out what she wants and leaves the rest!


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

You can either offer her the pellets first in the am, then at bedtime give her the bird crack. OR just give her the peas and corn or pellets by mouth once a day and the crack as a treat.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe is now two weeks post surgery. She stubbornly is refusing to eat her Zupreem pellets but is eating various kinds of parakeet seeds and maintaining her weight at 297 grams. Am worried still because she still has the hunched posture. Hope she is not retaining more fluid from her xanthomatosis. She is still on half the tramadol, along with the meloxicam, isoxuprine, and omega 3's as prescribed. She seems bright, alert, and pretty happy except for the hunched posture. She does not appear to be in any discomfort or pain which is good. I let her eat, then later give her the meds which she just despises and fights. She has flicked so much seed into the keyboard that it is getting hard to use it to type!  She is eating vigorously so as long as her quality of life is good, will just love her and hope for the best.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Usually hunched posture is a sign of pain.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dr. Olsen and Dr.Speer said the hunched posture is due to the xanthomatosis which is in her coelemic area and hopefully as the inflammation resolves (if it does), this should be better. ?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh, okay. Didn't realize that. The inflammation must be uncomfortable for her then. I hope she is feeling better very soon. Just takes time is all.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Don't know for sure if she will be OK but am hoping for the best. Dr. Speer was only able to remove 1/3 of the internal fat deposits, the xanthomas, and the fluid. She nearly crashed during the surgery (her air sacs wouldn't reinflate plus the xanthomas are heavily stocked with blood vessels and he was afraid she would bleed out). He thinks the combination of a low fat diet, meloxicam, deslorelin implant, isoxuprine, and omega 3's will help keep the xanthomas from growing. What she has probably won't go away. We are kind of in unknown territory here. Reduced the tramadol by 50% today and she didn't seem to mind. Still have to get her back on a very low fat pellet diet instead of the 6-7% fat seed diet she is on now (which she really loves however). Don't know how long she'll be OK. She is preening, pooping OK, and seems to enjoy her usual activities, bobbing her head, hopping around, and looking out the window. She doesn't want to interact as much because she is angry about me giving her the meds which is sad.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Had to go back to work today and girlbird doesn't look as happy tonight. She is humpy backed but did eat her birdie crack (refuses the pellets adamantly) and took her meds. Her weight is stable and her poop looks OK. Am hoping she is OK. She looks out her window (goes up and down the ramp we built) and bobs her head and preens. How would I know if she is really in pain or giving up? 'Would she stop interacting, stop eating, or ? She looks better when I get her out and talk to her (she likes being told "good birdie"). It is breaking my heart that she still is not looking better.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Her positioning indicates pain. Talk to the vet maybe and ask him. Pigeons instinctively will try to hide their pain or discomfort. Usually by the time they stop interacting or eating, they are so sick or in pain that they can't hide it anymore.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Just emailed the avian specialist who did her surgery to ask about her sitting with her back up. She is eating but I am very very worried about her. Am still giving her 1/2 the Tramadol and the whole meloxicam dose which should help with discomfort but I would feel terrible if she were really in pain. She is eating a little right now and likes it if I bring her her water crock and offer it to her (she is getting really really spoiled but deserves to be spoiled).


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Avian specialist suggested we discontinue the tramadol completely and that her posture is probably due to the abnormalities in her abdomen and respiratory tract from the xanthomatosis. He said she also might have adhesions from surgery. So wrote back asking if this is likely to be painful. We love our pigeon bird. She also has loose poop which concerns me.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Sad to know that she isn't doing well post surgery and seems to be in pain. Really hope this wonder bird recovers from her pain and health issue. Waiting for a miracle for her...


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could the loose droppings be from the diet change? Is she drinking more?


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Yes she is drinking more. She is eating a few pellets but mostly she eats orange blossom kaytee parakeet seed treat. Am keeping her room at 85 degrees which may be why she is drinking more. Am really afraid we won't be able to tell if she gets increased coelemic pressure from xanthomas and fluid...unless she shows weight gain. We love our wonderful Phoebe. Have been looking up how to tell if a bird is in pain or dying but every time I read people's blogs I just cry and then I can't sing to Phoebe. I know everything is mortal but am so hoping she will get better and be around longer. She is over three weeks post surgery. The xanthomas aren't considered cancer, but they are invasive and grow.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I am really sad for you.it is so bad why we are so helpless sometimes. I told my mom yesterday about phoebe that how you managed to take her to vet after 5 hours travel time and how you managed staying in a hotel 1 hour away from vet etc everything you did. She was so surprised to know i can't tell as she isn't an animal lover. Then I felt your efforts again and really hoped phoebe recovers. Today didn't feel good reading this thread.
But sometimes after all the efforts we have to leave everything on the One who created all the creatures and life and death which we have no interference in. 
Pray for her and do all possible efforts what you can do and hope for her recovery. Thanks for everything for her.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If she is drinking more, than her droppings would be more wet. She is probably going to get through this. Just keep up the weighing her to see if she gains water, and spend time with her. She isn't dying right now, or wouldn't be eating and preening. You know your bird, and would know if things went down. You would know.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Kiddy and Jay3, thank you for your kind posts about Phoebe. Will keep you posted.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I know how badly you are feeling, but stop worrying so much. I know that is hard, but being your normal cheery self around her will help her more. And you are doing all that you can for her. It's in God's hands. She will make it or not. Think more about all the times you have enjoyed her, and she you. How you made a difference in her life. 
You know, it isn't the length of a life, but the quality of the time she is here. Spoil her and make her comfortable, and keep us updated.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How is Phoebe doing today? All is well I hope.
How are you doing?


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe us doing a little better today, after eating more including pellets. She had a long lump of poop hanging down, about four inches, hard and dry. I was able to cut off about half of it. Am not sure if it is attached to a feather or what. Will try to remove the rest tomorrow. It started when she got the runs. Anybody ever encountered this unmentionable on a sick bird?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, and I hold a warm wet cloth to the area to soften it and it makes it easier to remove. If it doesn't work then I just lower their bottom half into some warm water for a few minutes to soften, then dry them off.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

OK, thanks. Just want to make sure I don't get any poop or water near her incision. But she can't be happy with poop hanging off of her.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would try the very warm, wet cloth first. It usually works, just takes a little time to soften it up.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe is now at her 23rd day post surgery. She does not look well. She eats, drinks, but still looks humpy backed and breathes open mouthed with very little stress. She interacts but has runny poop. She hides any distress and nods her head and walks around, when she sees me. But I am starting to wonder what to do next. We don't want her to suffer. She is on isoxuprine and meloxicam. The vet just said we are doing superb with her. Am starting to feel very sad and am hoping I am not doing a disservice to her keeping her alive. We love her lots.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Believe this, if she is head bobbing and turning when she sees you, she is well enough. When sick enough, she wont care if you are there or not, so the fact that she IS doing it is good. Please do not think of prematurely ending it for her based on worry. Just the facts and that is a fact, bobbing and spinning is mating behaviour, she is happy enough.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

CBL, thank you. I hope she is not suffering. Will keep monitoring her and hope for the best. We so want her to be feeling happy and in no distress. Will feed her in a little while and see how she eats. Have stopped weighing her every single day as that seems to upset her so will have to just judge by food in and poop out and weigh her maybe every other day.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ya exactly, let her and you enjoy eachother and keep her head bobbin lol. Always a good sign. If midge doesnt bob or croon for me when she sees me I know right away something is up. Sounds like u do too, so enjoy it for now.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe bobs her head but can't vocalize. It's hard enough for her just to breathe.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Does she have a blockage?


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

She eats and poops so there is no blockage there. I think the open mouthed breathing may be due to xanthoma or fluid interfering with her air sacs. Her abdomen is swollen due to that. She is showing open mouthed breathing more and more even without stress, when she is in her cage by herself or out with me. After she eats, she immediately wants to go back in her cage. Then she drinks some water but then sits on her box in the window with her eyes closed. I am very worried about her and don't think there is anything else anybody can do.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I am feeling sad, I am unable to comment on it... I think CBL said right...


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe the Wonderbird just died. We are overcome with grief. She was the sweetest most loveable bird in the world. She was always happy and comical.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't have words for you to overcome your grief. I can feel what you must be going through and I am aggrieved too. Can't say anything else. Please take care of yourself.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

CW, Im so sorry, I know your loss and pain, we all do. Im so glad she had you as an owner. Wish there was more that could have been done. Im surprised she lasted as long as she did with the description of laboured breathing for so many days. Im gonna email you quickly.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe ate and drank and bobbed her head until just minutes before she died. We really miss her. She seemed so much better this morning then got worse very suddenly. She just stopped breathing and lay down on the floor of her cage. I'm glad both of us got to tell her goodbye and that we truly loved her. I don't think we will ever get over her loss.such a beautiful special feral.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

And you said you took today off right to be with her, amazing and amazing that she did the bobbing right to the end. What a sweet soul.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Thank you to all who have been supportive over the past eight years we have had Phoebe. She had health problems from day one, with three surgeries, due to injuries then the coelemic xanthomatosis. I think the xanthomas are worse than a cancer, just relentless. She kept trying so hard and was always so happy and loving and full of life. We enjoyed the time with her and will always miss her and love her.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

We can't forget them ever. I couldn't forget my childhood friend my bunny yet. There were many but bunny was very special and it was my first loss. I didn't know what is death before loosing him and I am going to miss that childhood loss till the end of my life and I wish to get him in hereafter. Tho I cherish those unforgettable moments, I can never have again. Death is the destiny of every life. It pains when of someone close. Everyone of us has to bear this pain today or tomorrow. I am really sorry for you but your Phoebe must be very relaxed having found you till the end of her journey. She was Wonderbird really.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry you lost her, but I'm also glad that she is in peace. She isn't struggling now. She was very special to you, and brought you a lot of happiness. Try to remember the good times and not think long on the bad. The good Lord put her in your path, because He knew that you would love and care for her for the time she had here before He took her back. You did that. Feel good about that, and keep her memories as something that adds to your life, not causes pain. God Bless.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Kiddy, am sorry for the loss of your special bunny. Jay3, will try to think of the good times with Phoebe. Am so glad we had eight years with the Wonderbird.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

But I am glad that I had him and for you that you had this special bird Phoebe.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have lost pets that I have considered my best friends. I know it hurts, but to me, the pain we feel when we lose them just shows that we had so much with them. The more you have, the more it hurts to lose. That's true of anything. But not to have had it would have been more of a loss. By not opening your heart to another of God's creatures, you are missing so much. Perhaps He will have another creature in need that He will send your way.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Please if you are going to disagree that's fine, although the important thing you have in common is loving and wanting to help living things. Please I just want to commemorate Phoebes life and passing with good wishes.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Sorry. Yes I understand, I am deleting my irrelevant posts from it.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Kiddy, you didn't have to delete your posts! I didn't think they were irrelevant at all. I just wanted to remind everyone not to debate or argue because I see us all as very wonderful people who love pigeons and I want us all to get along despite our differences.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

It is so nice of you if you didn't mind, you are such a sweet soul but I realized this wasn't the place for some of those. I love Phoebe and I want her to be remembered with kindness. I was wondering how is Fiona? Does Fiona seem looking for Phoebe?


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Fiona is doing ok although she seems extra needy, vocalizing and wanting to be held. I tried to explain to her that Phoebe died because she was really sick. Am trying to be good to Fiona but it is hard because she reminds me that Phoebe is gone. Fiona is a great bird but she will never be Phoebe or replace Phoebe.phoebe was a one in a million pigeon.
Jay3, you didn't have to delete your posts either. I appreciate the support you, kiddy, and CBL especially have been giving. You may not all see things the same way but it's ok to disagree. I just hope people appreciate differences, not use them as a reason to dislike one another. One world is enough for all of us to share...especially when it us filled with kind people and wonderful pigeons!


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I can understand the loss of one can't be replaced with other but she needs to be cared as you are already doing, she must be feeling lonely. 
We didn't delete because we felt anything bad about. It was a conscious call to me that this wasn't the right place for some posts. may be Jay felt the same and deleted.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

All's good. Kiddy and I look at some things differently, but that doesn't cause dislike. 
I know it's hard now to care for Fiona, but that will get better with time. There may be another special needs pigeon, or one who needs a home because of being unreleasable on here who could be company for Fiona. Right now she needs a bit more attention and interaction.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes.... True


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Phoebe was a unique sweet bird. Am hoping that another special needs girl will come our way eventually to treasure like we did Phoebe. We were so lucky to know her. Am trying to give Fiona more attention and love even though it makes me cry when she calls to me. She snuggles.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Your birds are very lucky to have you. That is why I hope another comes your way. Each one is unique, all with their very own personality.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

I love all my girls for who they are, they are all so different, Beanie is giant and gentle and undemanding. Midgie is super sweet and cute also coy not demanding. Lady is a royal pain the butt super demanding gorgeous devoted loving girl. She is the kind of bird that would fly beside a car or boat and would throw her body at walls and doors to get to me. I love ALL my pigeons. My boys in the coop, some are sweet, some strong, all handsome. They all have their own personalities. Maybe you need a mini flock like mine. Totally sad and upsetting when one fails and dies, but the others keep you going. Maybe you should inquire again at the pound to see if any others are in need when the time comes.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm so sorry for your loss cwebster  I had been hoping for better , for both of you, after all your kindness and love. I know so little about xanthomatosis and I'm sorry Phoebe had such a terrifying illness.

Sorry to be asking a clinical type question, but something I didn't understand is why the vet didn't prescribe antibiotics are the surgery, is that normal for that kind of surgery?


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

They didn't prescribe antibiotics because infection wasn't an issue. Inflammation and cholesterol lead to the formation of the fatty tumor, xanthoma, stuff and then fluid, I think.


----------

