# Kalkbl's Modified Red Rose Loft 8x6..



## Kalkbl

I have also been building a Modified Red Rose Loft 8x6 at the same time as Cal, And have Posted some of my pics in his thread. 

Then I thought that might not be too respectful to just jump in on his thread, Forgive me I am new to this. 

So I will post my pics in this thread, And continue to ask a bunch of questions.

I started less than a month ago into Pigeons when we visited a Friend with a Loft. 

Before finding this site I did a search for loft plans and found this little 2x3 design that we built, And only had it one week and found out what a pain it is to work in something that small. And cleaning it stinks.

We found this site and found the Red Rose starter loft and decided that would be a good 2nd try. After 10 mis of looking at it I said lets build it 8x6 and not 8x4.

So to come current with where we are in Cal's thread I will post these pics.

My first loft and my start in to Pigeons


----------



## Kalkbl

He is the start to my Modified Red Rose 8x6 Loft.


----------



## Kalkbl

More of the progress


----------



## Kalkbl

And this is where I made it to after last night, Got my roof beams in and the back roof section on. Still need to trim the over hang after I figure out what the best length of it should be.


----------



## Kalkbl

Last one









Will need lots of advice on a interior design for nesting boxes and a YB section.

I have been watching posts from Shadybug and his loft as well as Cal, and a few others


----------



## Skyeking

Looking good, nice dog too!! 

Any ventilation under the roof?


----------



## Kalkbl

The roof has the standard Red Rose 4 inch opening at the ridge line. They leave it open and screened. I have it screened and looking for options to cap it or angle the over hang to keep rain and snow out.

I know I will be adding large wall vents low in some of the walls and plan to make screened window on the door that can be covered in winter.
The Ondura roofing leaves little openings all the way across the back and front wall also. May also put a high wall vent in if the 4 inch open ridge is not enough.



Tree Grays Thanks for your compliment on my little Gracie.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I could never figure out how the roof vent on the redrose design would keep out a blowing rain or snow I think the slop of the front is to steep to cover the opening enough. So I chose to cap it and let the air flow through under the cap. Just my thinking. I may be wrong.


----------



## Kalkbl

That and I am worried how it just sticks up about 20 inches into the air with no support. Looks like a big old wing to catch air??? I will lay it out, But common sense would say go with a Traditional ridge vent.

If I do use it I will find a way to frame it out so it is not just the roof panel unsupported.


----------



## calzephyr

Kalkbl - It's looking good. You are adding some nice touches that Redrose doesn't have. The way you framed out the door is different than the plan and looks more sturdy. I may try that.

When you expand it to 6 ft. deep, it seems to need additional interior bracing at the seems. I saw that you used another 1X4 inside at the seams. Good idea. I'm also going to add a 2X2 across the front horizontally to support the front panel.

I can only build on weekends so you'll be done long before me.

Keep posting more pics. It is great motivation and sparks the imagination.

-Cal


----------



## realtalk72

I have the same design and mine is also 6x8 and its been raining alot and lots of wind and never get a drop of water in the loft and my pigeons are healthy so this design works good very happy... have fun with it...


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

realtalk72 said:


> I have the same design and mine is also 6x8 and its been raining alot and lots of wind and never get a drop of water in the loft and my pigeons are healthy so this design works good very happy... have fun with it...


I believe you but I still can't imagine that a blowing rain or a blizzard hitting the back of that panel that it would not go down that slot we have rains here that I have seen that it looked like it was raining sideways. Maybe it has to do with the direction the loft is sitting.


----------



## Kalkbl

Cal, Yes frame out the door on both sides, It is solid as a rock now. I am going to make a window in the door very similar to Shady Bugs window door.
And adding as much bracing as possible to the inside sure stiffens the structure up. My Painter (wife) is pushing me along.
One thing I don't like is now that I raised the loft up off the ground that Aviary is very high.

Real talk, Thanks so much for your input, Since you have a 8x6 with that roof can you post a pic of yours. And if you see anything else that might help, 
Cal, and I sure would appreciate the input.

Shady Bug, Thanks again, Look forward to the pics, Maybe by the time I am on my 6th loft I could build one even close to yours. Your wood skills are great and your attention to detail is outstanding, Just the way you tweak things to make them that much better.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl said:


> Cal, Yes frame out the door on both sides, It is solid as a rock now. I am going to make a window in the door very similar to Shady Bugs window door.
> And adding as much bracing as possible to the inside sure stiffens the structure up. My Painter (wife) is pushing me along.
> One thing I don't like is now that I raised the loft up off the ground that Aviary is very high.
> 
> 
> Real talk, Thanks so much for your input, Since you have a 8x6 with that roof can you post a pic of yours. And if you see anything else that might help,
> Cal, and I sure would appreciate the input.
> 
> Shady Bug, Thanks again, Look forward to the pics, Maybe by the time I am on my 6th loft I could build one even close to yours. Your wood skills are great and your attention to detail is outstanding, Just the way you tweak things to make them that much better.


I think your loft is coming along great. It looks like you got some carpenter skills. There a lot of work. I had off yesterday but had to build a deck for my daughter and couldn't work on mine. I think it looks very nice. My wife pointed out thats funny a bird man with a bird dog. LOL


----------



## Kalkbl

Maybe you could steer me in a good direction for some people with a racer kit.
I think that is what its called. You get a few pair of prisoner birds that are the breeders and then race their young right? What type of clock do you have?

Yes Grace is a good little girl. We use to also have a Bullmastiff but we lost him 2 yrs ago to stenosis (sp). And we have a few Ducks.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl Here are the roof vent pics I promised.

This is the open roof with no foam insert









This is the end that is open clear through










This is the foam inserts the do have small air holes if you look close


----------



## Kalkbl

Thanks,
After much debate and indecision, I went with the traditional Red Rose open design. But I added some vertical support boards to stiffen it up.
If it doesn't work I will cut in down and put a cap on it.

Will post up the pics when I get the chance, I may have to knock off for the weekend to go play Barbecue and Holiday Fun. Got to keep the wife happy or no more trips to the lumber store!

I have been on it everyday starting last Sunday PM, I have about 30 hrs in it, Including the sitting around scratching my head and redoing my mistakes.
If I knew what I was doing I would be done by now.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I started my aviary today I am making most of it in my basement but when I get some of it up i will post picks I have to do the family thing some this weekend to. I stand around and scratch my head to and make plenty of mistakes. I tore the top of my aviary apart 3 times today I have to make it come out so the roofing comes right to the edge of the drip edge. Talk later


----------



## Kalkbl

He are a couple pics from my phone


----------



## Kalkbl

More, As you can see I decided to screen the sides of the Aviary for more light and air flow, But will make covers that you did for the winter.


----------



## calzephyr

Kalkbl - 

One of the issues I have been struggling with is what size of screen to use, and how to keep it flat & tight when installing it.

I was planning to use 1/2 x 1/2 for the aviary front and the front big windows in the loft. Then use 1/2 x 1 for the floor of the aviary (so the poops fall thru).

Are you modifying the Redrose plans to beef up the screening installation?

-Cal


----------



## Guest

you are doing a great job there my friend but I do want to point out that in winter time you will still get snow in thru that cap set up.. I only say this because even with my avairy covered in plastic every year snow still some how manages to blow in thru the underside so cant imagine how it wouldnt on the topside of a loft with an opening up there.. just a heads up is all  it does look awesome thou so I dont want to be a downer just wanted to give you my experiance on it is all being that Im from NJ as well


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

You just did one thing I wished I would have done since I built mine and that is put screen on the sides of the aviary You will be able to see your birds better I sit in my living room and really can't see much of my birds but if I had the sides like that It would be great. Good job your really thinking.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Those roof supports should do the job. Those 2 square holes in front I put that nylon fly screen that is dog proof Its real heavy so dogs cant break through your screen door. It worked great and gives them a lot of air. Mine are framed with latches so I could remove them and replace them with something solid but I never have. It is far enough under the roof that no rain or snow gets in. I didn't have those covers the first winter and never had a problem.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

calzephyr said:


> Kalkbl -
> 
> One of the issues I have been struggling with is what size of screen to use, and how to keep it flat & tight when installing it.
> 
> I was planning to use 1/2 x 1/2 for the aviary front and the front big windows in the loft. Then use 1/2 x 1 for the floor of the aviary (so the poops fall thru).
> 
> Are you modifying the Redrose plans to beef up the screening installation?
> 
> -Cal


I used 1" x 1/2" on everything It works good on the aviary floor you have to have something stronger than 1/2" x 1/2" because you will have to clean it. I wash it and brush it every time I clean the loft. I don't think 1/2" x 1/2" will hold up that well.


----------



## urunatural

good job, very nice loft, keep those pictures coming


----------



## Kalkbl

Cal,
I am using the 1/2 x1/2 for the sides and the front, I lay it out and smash in flat with some plywood. Then I use a regular T50 staple gun to get it on and pulled tight. Then I put my inside framing over it and screw it down.
Get the stuff off the roll and flatten it first. makes life easier.
I have the heavier 1x1/2 for the bottom of the aviary, Yes instead of just stapling it down I am Modifying it to have lift out floor panels to clean, Plus then I can frame in the wire floor also. Let me know if you need any more pics or any Help.

Lakoto Where In NJ, I am in 08721, I am going to try out this roof design for a bit, But will probably cut it down and cap it. If we get another bad winter I don't think that design would be good.. But 100 people say it is. So I will give it a fair try through some Thunderstorms. Thanks for your input, Let me know if you have and other tips.

Shady,
I was looking at the sides and thought It would block the light and the view, Mine faces south east, So I took a Roto zip tool and used the front trim as a guide and cut the out. I just bought a full 25 ft roll for the front and the sides. The 1 x1/2 is much stronger. Maybe I will switch and do the door fronts in it since they must have strength. I will leave the sides till they wear out. Should not have much wear and tear on the side panels.

Thanks for the tip on the Fly screen it should be much softer if the birds fly into it. You have been a ton of help as usually.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

The 1x1/2 on the floor works good but the poop still hangs on it at times and I have a stiff bristled brush I use to brush it off . The 1/2 x1/2 will be OK for vents and the sides Are you going to make one big door that flips down like the plans man I'm glad I didn't do that. doors are more functional. You have more control when you release the birds.


----------



## Kalkbl

No Sir. I will do just like you did, I will Bat wing the side doors and make the center removable. I am still trying to decide if I am going divide the loft and where to make the trap


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl I notice you have a lot of overhang on the roof sheets on the sides you may want to support them in some way to the edge The reason is when that roofing gets very hot It will get soft and sag a lot with that much overhang. Just a observation. Gary


----------



## Kalkbl

Yes I went with 3 inch over hang or in other words the first valley is lined up with the edge wall of the loft.. I guess I will have to cut it down some. Not sure how to support it now. Thanks --Keith


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Its OK. You could just put a 2" wide trim board against your other trim or what ever size it takes that trims it out nicely. When I built mine I had two left over pieces I used to measure with and made my roof that width.I can give you a pic I you need one.


----------



## First To Hatch

What kind of roofing material are you using?


----------



## Kalkbl

First,
It is called Ondura, Got it at Lowe's. Check out Shady Bugs Loft posts in loft designs, I found out about it from there.


Gary,
I think it would look rather goofy with that much of a pack out job on the trim.
I will let it go a while, As I am building the rest of it and interior, I will keep a eye one it. If the 3 inch on the side is going to sag then the top wing will be a nightmare. It has 8 inches from the side to the first support I put in.
--Keith


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Your probably right you could saw it down the closest valley and put a trim board









This is what mine looks like


----------



## Kalkbl

OK, Got Ya, Metal drip edge and then a smaller trim board.

Worked on my aviary floor today for a bit. Not exactly what I wanted but it is a removable floor frame to clean. Pics to come soon


----------



## Kalkbl

Here is the aviary removable floor grate


----------



## The_Dirteeone

I think you will be happy with your loft.It looks very nice by the way.I was surprised how the sloped roof keeps water out so well.I have been in mine during 3 really hard rains and not a drop.Great looking loft!!!


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Its lookin good If you dont put the drip edge you wood may rot


----------



## Guest

Kalkbl said:


> First,
> It is called Ondura, Got it at Lowe's. Check out Shady Bugs Loft posts in loft designs, I found out about it from there.
> 
> 
> Gary,
> I think it would look rather goofy with that much of a pack out job on the trim.
> I will let it go a while, As I am building the rest of it and interior, I will keep a eye one it. If the 3 inch on the side is going to sag then the top wing will be a nightmare. It has 8 inches from the side to the first support I put in.
> --Keith


I wouldnt bother cutting off the extra until you find the need to, even if it sags at least it is still covering more then less of the underside .. and I find your removable floors a great idea , I myself use a power washer so it works well even without the floor being removed but very ingenious of you there


----------



## Gnuretiree

Anyone ever use 1X2 welded wire on the floor on the aviary? Can the birds walk on that?

Hugh


----------



## Msfreebird

Gnuretiree said:


> Anyone ever use 1X2 welded wire on the floor on the aviary? Can the birds walk on that?
> 
> Hugh


Rodents can get thru that, and raccoons can reach thru it and grab birds. 
I wouldn't chance it.


----------



## Kalkbl

Quote "If you don't put the drip edge you wood may rot"

As you can see from the rear ledge under the floor grate, I had a slide out floor board idea going. 
It was to be a a panel 3-4" under the wire and would slide out to scrape instead of drop on the ground. I gave up on it because I figured with the rain and the snow it would just rot or cause the water to lay against the front of the Loft and rot that too.

The flooring is 1/2 x 1. Only found it in 30 inch height so I had to be creative to cover the floor sections, I did not like the edges of the wire on top so I trimmed out the top also. But that will interfere with the brushing of the grate!

Also should I use a outdoor Stain or Paint??


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl said:


> Quote "If you don't put the drip edge you wood may rot"
> 
> As you can see from the rear ledge under the floor grate, I had a slide out floor board idea going.
> It was to be a a panel 3-4" under the wire and would slide out to scrape instead of drop on the ground. I gave up on it because I figured with the rain and the snow it would just rot or cause the water to lay against the front of the Loft and rot that too.
> 
> The flooring is 1/2 x 1. Only found it in 30 inch height so I had to be creative to cover the floor sections, I did not like the edges of the wire on top so I trimmed out the top also. But that will interfere with the brushing of the grate!
> 
> Also should I use a outdoor Stain or Paint??


 If the woods not treated wood I'm not sure stain would protect it. You might want to ask the guys at Lowe's or where ever you are getting your stuff.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I was going to put a pan under mine to because the dogs would walk in the poop and drag it in the house so I thought at the time but I gave that idea up and the dogs are not a problem


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I'm going to see if I can get some expanded aluminum metal for the aviary floor today there is a aluminum welding shop near my house


----------



## Jeff Ward

Great looking loft Kalkbl!!! I love the removable floor idea, I'll be stealing that. Cheers!!


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

One thing I'm going to do on this one I going to make a 2' x10" slot for the entrance to the aviery with a 2x2 ledge with nothing for them to stand on on ether side can can fly up to the ledge and enter the loft I have two 4" wide openings in my other loft and a perch on the inside for each one and the birds stand on the perch on the inside and the other birds cant get in.


----------



## Kalkbl

Got the front aviary doors built last night and will put them on later today after work. Just burning through the 1x4's counted up that I still need 13 more to finish trimming the inside and outside of the loft, I must have used 60 of them!! even cutting them down for the aviary door frames.

On a side note I had just finished working and closed up the garage when a knock was at the door. My wife said some guy is at the front door, I was just getting dressed coming out of the shower when I heard him ask if that shed in the yard I was building was a Loft. 

I was worried he was going to complain, But he lit up and said I have Birds too, Birmingham Rollers and some other kind of Rollers.

So I took him in the yard and showed him what I got, He was very impressed
and said his loft looks nothing like mine. He said his loft is 16 years old now. I told him I am on a building kick now and if he wants to build a new one I would help him do it.
We talked for a hour and he has invited me to his house a block away to see his birds and his setup.

Never even saw one of his birds and he said he has over 40! And fly them on the weekends. Small world.
May get some good contact info from him for some other locals.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

There is a pigeon club in my town which I joined but I never knew it was there. and there is 4 lofts within a 1/2 mile of my house that I never saw till I started with pigeons.


----------



## Kalkbl

Gary 
How did you make out on your floor metal search?


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl said:


> Gary
> How did you make out on your floor metal search?


Not good. 4 something a ft 145.00 I don't know If I want to pay that. That's for aluminum. I'm going to call them and see how much steel is but that aluminum stuff is cool its called flatened expanded metal. I got to thinking would it be to hot on there feet when it gets to 100 out. Its outside maybe someone on here has it already and can advise us. Gary


----------



## Kalkbl

Update on the work

























Paint Girl Paint, The birds are waiting


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

They look so much nicer painted don't they. The doors look great where did you get that idea LOL


----------



## Kalkbl

From you is where? Ha,

The color was supposed to be a greenish gray, But all I see is a light gray not green, May have to change the trim color now.


----------



## Guest

its looking great and with it painted you know it will withstand the weather that much better and longer too ,must be awesome to have a painter gurl to add to the mix lol


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I see you have a bird in your aviary already LOL


----------



## Kalkbl

She made sure the door was blocked open before going in there. Lol


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Shes a good painter send her to my house I have to put a second coat on 3 sides of mine. I just went out to work on mine and came back in the air conditioning.It to hot out there. LOL


----------



## Kalkbl

Oh I will send her right out. That way she can report back with all the rest of your building secrets. I know what you mean, I am sun burnt and cooked. Been out there a few hours every day. Can't wait to start the interior. It will still be hot but shady at least.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Yea I will finish the aviery tommorro except the wire and the sheeting I will start on the inside framing till i come up with some more money I got the 1x3 awhile back for the inside I will frame and stain the inside and install those black vents and that dreaded painting on the outside I have to work 10 days before i have off again.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I love people using my ideas. Makes me feel good.


----------



## Kalkbl

Only a little done tonight too HOT.
Cut out the 2 front vents that are low on the front wall and screened them in. Then quit, 

Very busy weekend will probably not to get to build much till Sunday Pm.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I know what you mean. I cant work till sunday. This is my weekend to work I work 10 days on and 4 off 2nd shift.


----------



## Kalkbl

Well got 5 more little ones yesterday afternoon, 3 checks, 1 Blue Bar, And a Dunbar(sp).
So the new loft got opened minus the nesting boxes, Will add them this week some time I hope. So far I have 20 perches built and in and more on the way.
Currently have 11 birds total now.

Was 94 here yesterday with a ton of humidity, Did not get home from our Dog event until 4 pm,

I noticed that when I added the heavy screen door screening to my front windows it darkened the loft a bunch, It is very soft and will not hurt the birds when the fly into it, But it cuts down too much light.

I did not get my window built into my door yet though.

Still have trim to put up on the outside and another coat of paint to go on the outside of the loft also, But I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now, Then will have to work it and see what will need changed or modified.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

If you have birds already you will find it to be a pain when you have to work on it. I'm not putting birds in mine till I'm done if you don't have nest boxes in yet you will probably have eggs on the floor. How much light do they need ? They can come out in the aviery when they want. Mines not like direct sunlight but its not dark either the door window will help a lot. Do you get light through the 4" roof vent ?


----------



## Kalkbl

I was told as much light as possible?

Yeah some light comes in the ridge vent, But I doubt that is staying. The Ondura roofing is already sagging from the 95 degree heat in between the supports I added. Will have to add more or cut the roof back and put a cap on it.

I had to add the birds I could not keep 11 in the little 2x3 loft, And they needed the babies gone.

Was also going to go with a Bob trap, But the slanted front of the Aviary does not look like it will work with out much redesigning. I could put it through the wire side of the Aviary. My does not like leaving a drop trap open when we cant come straight home.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I have a bob trap in the side of the aviery that i don't think shows on my pics I can show you if you want but I put that drop trap on the front screen and I love It the birds go right in I havent had to even put then through it first.With the bob trap it always took them forever to enter the would go up to it and push on the wires a dozen times or moor before they would finally go in. With the drop, one time and there in. I would recommend the drop if you dont I know you will put it in later.


----------



## Kalkbl

I hear you I had a bird stay out for a coupe days on top of the old aviary because it did not like the Bobs. How can you make a drop trap safe for while you are away, Any Ideas?


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Don't know I will have to think about that. Mine is in the aviary when I let the birds out I shut the slide door and keep all the stock birds inside then when the birds come back its easy to see if there all back because they are in the aviary and you don't have to check or count all the birds.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

If you think about it a cat or something can go through bobs too


----------



## Kalkbl

I am looking into building some perch boxes tonight. Why do the make the floor on a slant or angle for a perch box?


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I think it just a different way to catch the poop. The board doesn't go clear to the back the poop is scraped or roles down the board and is cleaned up of the floor some I have seen have a door that opens to clean it out I think I'm right on this if not someone else may help.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I just added up my reciepts. Its bad news 1500.00 so far and I know its going to take 500 more to finish it.


----------



## Kalkbl

Brave Man, I have not touched the envelope I have been stuffing receipts in to but it is getting pretty thick.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Don't add them till your done it will make you slow down. I have 45 reciepts just from lowes so far. LOL


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Do you understand about the perch's


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I just got a Idea for a easy scape perch. That's what I will call It. I just came to me while I was writing this post. I will have to work out the details.


----------



## Kalkbl

I started building Matthews perch boxes last night.
They have the slanted floor and are removable and have a space in the back.

I am using 1/2 plywood as it was 40 bucks compared to pine boards for 130 bucks.

What is your idea for perches? I will have to have standard perches also.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I'm not sure yet but you will not need a scraper


----------



## Kalkbl

Got the Perch boxes in the other day. Took these pics 1/2 hour after I put them up. 

I don't think they will be my finished product, May add a strip of wood on the front. I went by the instructions but it would seem to me, The birds would be More comfortable on a flat floor, Rather than on a angle.
They all sit on the flat top of it. I guess I need some Timothy hay or something to throw in the boxes for them to sit on?


----------



## randymcone

Why are the floors slanted?


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

They look great but I think there should be a wider board there where they sit and they look like there tight against the back I think there is a opening there so the poop falls to the floor That's the reason they slant Gary


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I put the roof on my aviery today will post pica tomorrow


----------



## Kalkbl

The floors are 12 inches wide 11 1/2 deep.

I read that it would (1) be easier to Clean poop rolls back and falls to the floor.
(2) If they lay a egg in the Perch box it will not roll out and break.
(3) that they will sit back in the Box some and have more privacy and less fighting.

Will any of it work, I don't know. But you have to try stuff to see.

I am a beginner and learning as as go


----------



## calzephyr

Kalkbl - The box perches would be better used by the birds if they had a level 1X3 or 1X4 across the front of each box, then have the plywood sloping back.

The plywood catches the poops, etc. but the bird has a nice flat piece to stand on.

If the boxes are mounted a couple inches from the wall (spacers), then you can scrape back and the poop all falls into a tray at the bottom, or on to the floor to be swept up.

I think that is the theory anyway.

-Cal


----------



## Kalkbl

Yes there is a 1 inch gap at the back for poop to fall.

But I was told you want the birds back into the box so they will not fight with their neighbor next door? If they are all at the front they will still be right next to one another.


----------



## calzephyr

Something like this (notice the perching area on the front)

http://www.redstarlofts.co.uk/online_shop.asp?pid=19&cid=12

-Cal


----------



## Guest

yes its true you need a flat spot at the front of the box for them to perch on and the fact that they are boxes keeps them from fighting, looks good thou so your almost there


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

You might want to put a face board on top of your perches looks like the like to roust there more than in the boxes . You will be forever scraping poop up there if you dont.


----------



## Kalkbl

Not getting much time to build lately,
I just got done putting in a Bob trap, When the guy around the corner stopped by and said 14 of his birds were killed in his loft the other night,
A Raccoon bent open the Bobs and went it and killed them. I am going over to help him build some more security in his loft.

I thought great I wasn't even going to put in a Bob trap, But my wife wanted it, We are going to also try to use a drop trap but have too many neighbors cats around to leave a drop trap open for late birds.

I said I could fix that, I made my landing board fold up and down, So I can fold it up and lock it in place at night completely covering the Bob door with 5/8 inch plywood. No **** or cat is getting through that.

And I also added a Shadybug sliding door to close off the Loft if needed but could only get clear Lexan, So I need to put something on it or the birds will fly into it..Duh


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

This is what I did for protection. I'm not sure those barbs will work well that way you should have them drop in. I had a perch close to mine and the birds would lift up the barbs. They are real hesitant to go through them anyway. I hope they don't get halfway through and back out and get jabbed.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

This is my new drop. I hope it works. If It does I'm going to remove the old one.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

My new drop trap is a success. I flew a couple birds today and within an hour they went right in with no hesitation. I had It open all morning without any escapes. I have a perch in the aviery about 10" below the drop. When I had the old drop in they would leap from the perch and right out through the dowels. I had to remove the perch every time I used the drop. Now they can't get out even when I leave the perch in. You can see the perch in the pic. Its amazing what little changes make. Thanks to whoever suggested to put the slates in. Gary


----------



## Guest

Kalkbl said:


> Not getting much time to build lately,
> I just got done putting in a Bob trap, When the guy around the corner stopped by and said 14 of his birds were killed in his loft the other night,
> A Raccoon bent open the Bobs and went it and killed them. I am going over to help him build some more security in his loft.
> 
> I thought great I wasn't even going to put in a Bob trap, But my wife wanted it, We are going to also try to use a drop trap but have too many neighbors cats around to leave a drop trap open for late birds.
> 
> I said I could fix that, I made my landing board fold up and down, So I can fold it up and lock it in place at night completely covering the Bob door with 5/8 inch plywood. No **** or cat is getting through that.
> 
> And I also added a Shadybug sliding door to close off the Loft if needed but could only get clear Lexan, So I need to put something on it or the birds will fly into it..Duh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its looking great but I will agree with shady that having them drop in makes the birds come in faster and without as much problem , having them walk thru the bobs on the same level as the floor makes them back out alot because the bob sits on their back all the way thru which freaks them out a bit , dropping in doesnt.. but your right you want to keep those raccoons out they are nasty little devils and will kill off your birds all in one night if they get the chance so a fort knox approach is necessary


----------



## Guest

Shadybug Lofts said:


> This is my new drop. I hope it works. If It does I'm going to remove the old one.


the new drop trap looks great , glad its working out so well for you


----------



## Wingsonfire

You really have done a nice job.................


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl Did you get any heavy rain storm to see If your roof vent keeps the loft dry.


----------



## Kalkbl

Yes we had a few good rains. One storm lasted 2 days of heavy rain.
Not a drop came in the loft yet. We will see how it does with snow this winter.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I guess It has a lot to do with which direction you set your loft .


----------



## Guest

I would still worry about when it snows lol , wind and snow have a way of finding its way into any crack that is open .. the chills and snow drifts are endless at that time of year


----------



## Kalkbl

I live on the by the Ocean, We hardly ever get snow because the water warms up the air. We only get it when it is a nor easter storm from the water.

It can snow 15 miles in land and we will have rain.
But I could change the roof and put a cap on it if needed pretty easily


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

My sliding door is clear and they never fly into it Its covered in pigeon dust most of the time and looks milky.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Sorry A little late on that reply but I sit here 8 hrs a night reading over the posts and see things I didnt see before. LOL


----------



## blackknight01

with this new trap how do u keep them from not going out?

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww331/gdsmith4/500.jpg


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

blackknight01 said:


> with this new trap how do u keep them from not going out?
> 
> http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww331/gdsmith4/500.jpg



They cant get out. There 4" apart and they have to pull there wings in to go through them when they enter. If they look from the sides they don't see a opening and if they jump up or fly up their wings need to be open and they cant get through. With just dowels there they would get there head through and catch the bottom lip with there feet and out they went. The higher it is off the floor the better it will work


----------



## Kalkbl

I started building a drop trap today in the 100 plus degree heat.
I put it up in the center section of the aviary, But I must say I hate it,
I don't like the way it looks on the aviary, I made the aviary full open to look good and now this big monstrosity is blocking most of the center.

I am at a stop before I cut my screening until my wife gets a look at it, But I bet it will get ripped out.

I am also thinking of adding a second aviary off the the side of the loft,
If all the birds try to come out at once the 36 inch floor plan gets a little crowded.
I think a second one off the side would be good, Making it angled to match the front one would look the best but, If I make it a rectangle then I could put a drop trap above it through the loft wall.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I know I don't like it there either But with my loft being that small I didn't have much choice. You could make another center piece and just change them when you fly That is what i thought. Mine is actually worse than yours because i made my roof come down further than most so they had a place to get out of the rain so my doors are shorter than normal. I probably would have put mine in the back side of the loft but the nest boxes were there. You could make it work. How big did you make it. If your not flying a lot of birds put a small one up in the corner with one or two drops and a small landing board


----------



## Kalkbl

Just as I thought, We took it back off, I will add one to the side of the loft in the future. Just too unsightly


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I though of something what if i make a thin frame and cover it with wire for the landing board that way when it is closed it will let the same amount of light in as if it wasn't there.


----------



## Kalkbl

That would work, it would also not give that blocked off look to the front of the loft.
Plus like you said let the light in.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I think that's what i will do when i get time things are going slow here on my new loft its just to hot to work on it. Its suppose to cool down in a few days but then were going to the beach from Saturday to Tuesday and nothing will get done again. Nice talking to you again


----------



## Kalkbl

I have stopped building due to the heat also for the moment. Too hot,
And I am busy treating sick birds (cocci) Changing out the medicine water and cleaning the loft out 2x a day because the messy watery poops.

It is has got better over the last couple of days, But I have 3-4 of my birds that are really down to skin and bones at the moment.

What beach are you going to?


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Ocean city Maryland Were your birds sick when you got them? You havent had them long have you


----------



## Kalkbl

Yes I had a few that were fine and bought 15 at once and they were sick I guess.
Now treating the whole loft because they spread it.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Hows your birds


----------



## g0ldenb0y55

Shadybug Lofts said:


> This is my new drop. I hope it works. If It does I'm going to remove the old one.


I'm glad this idea worked out for you! The dowels you had before made it easy for them to grab hold, stick their heads through the trap and pull their bodies through whereas with this setup it's difficult for them to do that without falling back down.


----------



## The_Dirteeone

I also have the overhang,and was worried too.I haved checked it many times after hard blowing rains,and it was dry.I am building a second one noe and am using the same design.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

It works great no escapes. I think i am going to replace the landing board with a frame and wire so it doesn't block the sum when its shut and i will have a board to lay on the screen for them to land on when it is in use. When I get time.


----------



## ptras

Shadybug Lofts said:


> It works great no escapes. I think i am going to replace the landing board with a frame and wire so it doesn't block the sum when its shut and i will have a board to lay on the screen for them to land on when it is in use. When I get time.


Shadybug...it appears from the picture that you have a board underneath on the bottom of the trap that goes across the openings. Is that as I see it? Why the board? I'm just starting to build a drop trap that is similar to yours. I like the idea of the fold-up landing board to close off the trap.


----------



## Kalkbl

> Hows your birds


Having a hard time at the moment. I was told by a fecal sample they had Cocci, So I treated with Corid liquid, Then All my little squeakers just were laying on the floor Shaking, Brought all of them in and hand treated them with Sumet because now I was told that the Cocci was a secondary disease and that they had Paratyphoid(sp) or something.

Over 4 days of hand caring for them they one by one looked better got up and started walking again then Promptly died that night
I don't get it they got stronger and stood up and moved around then dead within hours of that,

The 17 I have left just finished 7 days of Medpet Trimethoprim sulf powder
And some still have real watery poop and when I let them out at night they just fly down to the ground and walk around like chickens for 20-30 Min's then trap back in with out flying anywhere,

I lost 2 others not due to sickness one got Hawked while feeding on the back grass, And one flew into my neighbors house and broke its wing and had a bones sticking out of its chest.

All in all I would say I am not very good at this caring for Pigeons and after losing a total of 12 birds in a 1 1/2 months I wonder if I am cut out for this,
Really cant understand the little ones getting better then dying in a few hours later.

If I cant get this under control I don't know what I will do. -Keith


----------



## cbx1013

Keith:

Very sorry to hear about your birds! Stick with it... perhaps there was nothing to be done with the youngest ones. Do you have access to an avian vet? Maybe there's something else going on...

All animals/pets try our patience, and test our wallets. I've spent close to $3000 this spring/summer on my Gordon Setter... she had surgery in May for a torn biceps tendon. Last week, she developed a huge swelling on her muzzle, like a bee sting... Except it started blistering, weeping blood and pus. Turns out it was poison oak, and she got it from me! Who knew?

So right now, my pigeons and loft project are my inexpensive hobby, if you can believe that.

Seriously, try to get to a vet, or if you have an experienced keeper who can offer some insight. You'll get through it, and learn a lot in the process. But, I'm still sorry for what you're going through.

Don


----------



## cbx1013

Quick thought... If you withheld grit while medicating, the poop will remain watery. If they are done with meds, try some probiotics and the grit, and I'll bet the poops respond in a couple of days or so.

Also, How did you choose your meds? Perhaps there's an alternative med that's better/safer for the squeakers?

Don


----------



## Kalkbl

The poop sample was from a vet although he is not a avian vet,

The meds and other advice I get from a local pigeon supplier, who sells just about everything from birds to supplies,

So far He has guided me to buy 70 bucks and 4 different meds to give the birds. I do not know anyone else, I sent a email to the local club about their meetings or for help but no reply in 2 weeks time so far.

I will tell you though losing a couple that fly away sucks, and when one gets grabbed by a hawk sucks, But hold them and hand washing their dirty butt and wrapping them in a towel and hand feeding them meds and water, Keeping them in the house in a warm quiet room, only to see them die 4-5 days later when they look like they have recovered greatly. That just takes the cake, Really makes you feel like a loser.


----------



## First To Hatch

Call the club or even better find the number of the president and call him. They'll probably give you some free young birds if they don't theres a lot of guys on here that will help you out. Hopefully you will find a mentor that will help you and teach you don't be shy mentor seems to choose you if anything. I remember all I did was introduce myself to one guy and hes honestly is the best guy I know. Just get in contact with a club they should teach you about vaccinations and certain medications for your birds.


----------



## Kalkbl

That is what I am trying to do at the moment, Only found a email to the club, will have to do some more looking, Not looking to take on anymore birds until I can fix and care for what I already have. Thanks for your help

I am trying to find a mentor or even unbiased local help.
The supplier is a business so he profits from my misfortune


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

ptras said:


> Shadybug...it appears from the picture that you have a board underneath on the bottom of the trap that goes across the openings. Is that as I see it? Why the board? I'm just starting to build a drop trap that is similar to yours. I like the idea of the fold-up landing board to close off the trap.


 No No That's not a board on the trap that's a little roof in the back over the two openings to shed rain sorry. It does look like its part of the trap.:


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Sorry to here that. Hope they all get better.


----------



## cbx1013

Well, at this point I'd try to figure out exactly what the problem is- even if a visit to a University Vet School, or Avian Vet. Might need to do a necropsy on one of the YB's that was affected.

You might be medicating for the right thing- or not. Nothing to lose at this point, everything to gain. This doesn't sound like paratyphoid to me... It's fatal to much younger birds, like hatchlings or eggs.

Heck- I'd even try the carrot juice that Mr. Squeaks talked about. But I strongly suggest getting an expert opinion, and some serious meds to get this under control. An old friend told me this years ago, and I've applied it to a lot of different situations... "Know when to spend the money to get the *right* answer."

Best wishes!

Don


----------



## First To Hatch

Kalkbl said:


> That is what I am trying to do at the moment, Only found a email to the club, will have to do some more looking, Not looking to take on anymore birds until I can fix and care for what I already have. Thanks for your help
> 
> I am trying to find a mentor or even unbiased local help.
> The supplier is a business so he profits from my misfortune


The AU should give you a phone number and email address of the clubs in your area, or you can be like me those closest club could be I.F.


----------



## cbx1013

If it's Adenovirus, you can really only treat the secondary infections I guess... You might want to post over in the "Sick Pigeon" forum to get some ideas.

Hang in there!

Don


----------



## Kalkbl

So far they are looking a lot better, They have been on Probiotics for the last 2 days since finishing a 7 day treatment and they are looking much more alert and active.
Last night when I let them out they flew around the house and maybe the block for about 5-10 Min's before coming in and landing on the lawn to walk around.
It is the first time they have done that in weeks.
I will keep a close eye on the poop in the perch boxes.


----------



## cbx1013

Keith:

Any update? Things getting better?

Don


----------



## Kalkbl

Yes, 
No more deaths and they are all gaining a little weight back, And are back to loft flying around the immediate neighborhood but are not going out far.
Poop has all cleared up only a occasional watery drooping now.

The one that ran into a house still cant fly but he has rebounded a lot/
He is eating great and is flapping his wings like crazy but does not fly yet,
I have hope he will be able to fly again, He has a ramp I put down for him to come out and mingle on the lawn and get a bath with the other birds and this has made him very happy that he can be part of the flock again.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

My best flyer that I have now and the first bird i hatched UNO the one that's in the pic in one of my posts flew into our house one day while we were sitting on the patio furniture and it hit the house right above my head he hit hard and never hit the ground just flew from the house to the hill to shake it off. That was 3 years ago and he's my best bird now. He will probably come out of it OK. I would be afraid to fly to if i hit a house.


----------



## Kalkbl

OK, Time to change house.
As you know from the previous posts I went with Perch boxes with a angled floor for my birds.

What a mistake! The poop does not roll out the back and fall down, And scraping backward away from you just clogs up the back slot and makes a bigger mess.

After all the sickness and losses from flying, I am down to 16 birds
I have 3 sets that have paired up, One of which laid eggs on the floor but would not sit on them, They just went back to the perch box and abandoned the eggs. Left them in the loft for 7 days to see if they would go back to them, Then tossed them.

Point of the post is now I have a little experience cleaning my loft and what I like and dislike.

So I have designed a new set of Perch boxes.

First they will be 12x12x12 but when you pull out a center divider they will convert to 12x24x12 for more room for a nesting pair and can have a nest front put on them to make a closed nesting box.

Also the floors are removable so they can be lifted out and scraped away from you face and down into a bucket. A big plus for me!

Will have spare floors so when you have a real mess or want to disinfect you just slap a clean floor in and a then have time to clean and dry the dirty one.

There will be 32 perch boxes or can be set to have as many as 12 nest boxes and as 8 perch boxes, Or any combination. Plus I have 20 stick perches in the loft also.

Pictures to come


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

This is a great idea.

First they will be 12x12x12 but when you pull out a center divider they will convert to 12x24x12 for more room for a nesting pair and can have a nest front put on them to make a closed nesting box.

Now all you need is a slat floor


----------



## Kalkbl

if I ever get a drill press I may try to make a slat floor.

But you still have to scrape those too.

There is a lot of things I have not attempted to make because no drill press.


----------



## TN_PIGEON

Kalkbl said:


> if I ever get a drill press I may try to make a slat floor.
> 
> But you still have to scrape those too.
> 
> There is a lot of things I have not attempted to make because no drill press.


You can get a light duty one for about $125 (maybe even cheaper if you catch one on sale).

Then again, the kids at the local high school might be able to help you out (i remember kids in shop class doing that sorta thing to raise a lil money). Who knows...you might even be able to introduce one of them to the hobby of pigeons.


----------



## ptras

TN_PIGEON said:


> You can get a light duty one for about $125 (maybe even cheaper if you catch one on sale).
> 
> Then again, the kids at the local high school might be able to help you out (i remember kids in shop class doing that sorta thing to raise a lil money). Who knows...you might even be able to introduce one of them to the hobby of pigeons.


I just checked the tools section of Craigslist, and there are 90 drill presses for sale in the Boston area ranging in price from $15 to $2,400.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I think i payed 3 dollars for my drill press at a yard sale. They have yard sales in our area every weekend it a big thing. We go every Saturday morning. The economy is so bad people are selling everything cheap. I have seen people set out half of the things in there house just to try to make a house payment.


----------



## Guest

ptras said:


> I just checked the tools section of Craigslist, and there are 90 drill presses for sale in the Boston area ranging in price from $15 to $2,400.


drill pressses arent all they are cracked out to be so only buy the cheapest one you can find and make sure it works before you buy one lol


----------



## Kalkbl

Will take a look for a used one. Work has been really rough. Trying to get the time to get my boxes built. Only got a couple of hrs to build so far.


----------



## Kalkbl

Finally made it home from work before Dark.
Here are some pictures of the new boxes I made..

Again they can be as small as 12x12x12. Or be opened up to 12x24x12 or even 24x24x12

All the floors except the bottom of the structure lift out for easy scraping.
Notice the egg out side of a nest Bowl!! They love to torture me.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

I just had 2 born in a nest they built beside the nest bowl.


----------



## Kalkbl

Yeah what is up with that? Don't they know we are trying to help them.
I am sure by the time I build my third set for this loft I will have a good idea of what will work.
Right now it is a starter loft and I am learning as I go along.

Do you move the babies or just leave them out of a bowl?


----------



## sreeshs

I once took the egg and put it back in nest bowl, the hen layed the second egg in the bowl and hatched the squabs in the nest bowl. I should also say that pair of breeders were one of the average tamed ones.


----------



## NJM52002

Keith, it Peter with the weimeraner. Nice loft. I really wish I made mine wider. Mine is so tight at the 4ft. Let me know when you want and we can go see the other guy I know in TR. He also said he would go to your house and check your birds.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl said:


> Yeah what is up with that? Don't they know we are trying to help them.
> I am sure by the time I build my third set for this loft I will have a good idea of what will work.
> Right now it is a starter loft and I am learning as I go along.
> 
> Do you move the babies or just leave them out of a bowl?


They raised them where they were .There about to leave the nest soon.


----------



## Kalkbl

Gary
Did you notice I added a face board across top this time to keep them from going up there. You were right on that too, Nothing like scraping poop off something at eye level, Nasty.

I got 3 sets of birds that laid eggs and only 1 set that is even sitting on theirs. the others both only had 1 egg instead of 2 and are not sitting on them at all that I see.

The whole problem with this hobby is I thought I could get away with 1 6x8 loft. Now it looks like I will need another one to make a old bird section and a young bird section. Then divide the 6x8 into a breeder loft where you can separate Hens from Cocks.

This one open loft stuff is madness, Fighting, mating when ever they want to who ever they want it is chaos.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Yep, That's why i built the new one. Even in the new one i will put artificial eggs in there to keep the numbers down. You need to keep the ratio of hens and cocks about the same. It will help. Like i said before my problems started when i put 4 rollers in there. They pushed the homers right out of the nest boxes and the homers started laying on the floor. Before the rollers i never saw an egg on the floor.


----------



## Kalkbl

HA,
They keep throwing the disposable nest bowls out on to the floor.
Training Dogs is easier. Lol


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Put a couple staples in the edges problem solved.


----------



## Kalkbl

That would keep it down. But would be a real pain to try and scrape the box.


----------



## TN_PIGEON

Kalkbl said:


> That would keep it down. But would be a real pain to try and scrape the box.


Try velcro


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Put sand in the bottom.


----------



## Kalkbl

Well the one floor Egg Hatched yesterday. So I now have the first baby ever to be born in my loft on the Floor

I guess I will just have to watch, Before they lay their next round I think I will lock them into a nest box to try to force them to use a box. But I don't know yet, I still do not know what I am doing


----------



## raftree3

Walk me through how you installed the roof? Looks like Ondura, I'm going to try to do something tomorrow. Are you satisfied with the red rose design with the top overlapping the back? It looks like snow and rain could blow right in. Does the Ondura sag at the top? how'd you do that?


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

If your smart you will just put a normal roof vent system on top .


----------



## ptras

Kalkbl said:


> HA,
> They keep throwing the disposable nest bowls out on to the floor.
> Training Dogs is easier. Lol


Put fronts on the nestboxes that have an opening too small for the nest bowl to go through flat. Guarantee that as smart as pigeons are, they aren't smart enough to tip a nest bowl on edge to get it through the opening!


----------



## Kalkbl

Scroll back to page 2 and you can see I added support bars under the curves of the Ondura roofing to support it. With out that it will sag very badly. or you could sheath it and than Ondura over that, But it must be supported.

We have had several massive rain storms some that has lasted 4 days in a row so far it has been very dry. No snow yet, I am on the water so we do not get much snow, When it snows 10 miles in land we get rain. Unless it is a Nor Easter that comes in from the water like last year. But the loft was not built then.

I must say that Ondura is not the Best for a Redrose design, It was designed for metal roofing and that would be better and stiffer then Ondura.

Ondura is easier to cut and looks better than metal though.


----------



## blkramhemi

i agree with the nest fronts, that should hold ur bowls intact.. ths is obviously an open breeding loft, huh???? 

yeah u really need to keep that poop off there floor, i shrunk shadybugs plans for slat flooring, and used smaller wood dials for nest box flooring... ill post pics later....


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

A slat floor would sit nicely on them boards you have around the bottom


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Staple your nest bowls to a piece of plywood the size of the bottom of the nest bowl then you can still remove it for cleaning the box. Is that a Ferrel pigeon it doesnt look like a racing homer?


----------



## Kalkbl

Her and her mate are banded racing Homers out of Long Island NY. Are the quality birds probably not, I bought them from the feather Merchant.
Right now I am just trying to learn how to care for birds, I was told this was easy, Nothing has been easy.


----------



## ValencianFigs

How much did this whole loft cost you without the nesting boxes and stuff. I have the perches and nest boxes but I want to make another loft.


----------



## JaxRacingLofts

Kalkbl said:


> Right now I am just trying to learn how to care for birds, I was told this was easy, Nothing has been easy.


Hang in there..you know alot more now then when you first started. 

Always learning something new is the best part of the sport. I think your doing fine.Remember making mistakes not a big deal...only when you repeat the same mistake do you have a problem. 

I bought this book by Dr. Zsolt Talabe'r 
PIGEONS AND THEIR ECONOMICAL HEALTH CARE..they sell it at Jedds pigeon supply for $40. This book helped me and I would recommend it. 

Once you get over these first year "growing pains" it will all be worth it. Your loft looks good and you should be proud.


----------



## Kalkbl

I never did add up all the receipts! I would guess close to 1000.00 for the loft and aviary. I used a lot of extra wood by making everything removable to clean. Most people just make the aviary solid, My wire floor and fronts all remove to be cleaned.

I am learning that a open loft is not great and will need to make a sections to separate birds.


----------



## ValencianFigs

That is not really bad considering how big you made it.


----------



## blkramhemi

your fine, its nothing man.... hang in there, just stick with the family here and youll do fine... just mind that open loft, just breed what u think is best!!!


----------



## raftree3

Now that winters coming have you or do you plan to cover the big windows with anything other than the screen?


----------



## Kalkbl

I will have hard Plywood covers made up for the front of the Aviary in case of a bad snow storm or Hurricane. Not sure if I need to cover the inside windows or not.
I have asked several people and they said no, But then 1-2 others said yes.
They told me not to cover the lower vents on the front of the loft also.


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Kalkbl said:


> I will have hard Plywood covers made up for the front of the Aviary in case of a bad snow storm or Hurricane. Not sure if I need to cover the inside windows or not.
> I have asked several people and they said no, But then 1-2 others said yes.
> They told me not to cover the lower vents on the front of the loft also.


No need to cover the inside you need the air flow it will flow through the aviary floor into the loft. I don't cover my inside and it works fine. I have had mine blow off in a big storm so i put rubber tie down strapes across them in big storms.


----------

