# Sour crop, please advice-urgent!



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I am starting a new thread on Rudy, since I need help real fast. Yesterday, I noticed her looking a bit off. She had just starting mating Ruku, and I thought she might just be exhausted. Today morning, I saw her standing all bent over, with the the crop extending forwards.
I took her in, and fed her some peas. By evening, when I got home, I saw that she couldn't stand properly and was rocking to and fro and falling. I gave some more food, thinking she was starving and hence weak. But now I feel awful, because it looks like sour crop. There are no signs of poop anywhere, except for white urates. 
I took her to the vet's home since the hospital was closed, and he suggested baytril and Vitamin B. I tried to give her baytril, but she vomited a foul-smelling pool of liquid, with 3 peas from morning in it.
Just now, she pooped a black tarry substance. 
I gave her a bit of ACV water, some applesauce, did some light massage for her crop. I can feel some lump in her throat, but I cannot say for certain it is a lump. It is barely detectable (if at all it is there). I gave her a high dose of metronidazole (around 80 mg) hoping it would find its way down to the possible lump. 
She has her beak slightly open too. I can hear some whistling sometimes. 
Tomorrow, I will take her to the vet. I hope they will do crop flushing there. 
Will she make it through the night? She is my first rescue, and she is most precious to us. I already feel like I'm losing all my hope in life. 
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Forgot to attach a photo. The wings are drooping.

It is not allowing me to attach the same photo again, so please look at this thread towards the end:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/pigeon-fights-69290.html


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I'm sorry to hear that.

I wouldn't give the bird anything more until crop is empty. Sour crop is caused by a fungus infection of the digestive tract. 

Medicating indiscriminately and excessively can cause sour crop in itself and make it worse. *


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree....it probably is slow crop and by all means, do not give any more medications or food. The good news is she passed something after the ACV and massaging was done.

Do a bit more of ACV and applesauce, just a bit of either, and do the crop massage again.

If she were a baby the danger would be graver, but she is a sizable Pigeon, so she can probably withstand the discomfort and pull thru this OK.

But as Skye says, no more food, no more meds until that crop gets moving a bit more.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Canker can also cause a blockage in the crop which can cause sour crop. So it may be canker. I would treat for canker.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Day 1; Don't know if she ate or not. Just saw once that she looked slightly off. 
Day 2; Force-fed peas in the morning and soaked pellets in the evening, but nothing has come out as poop. 
So, two days without food. This is really scaring me. 
Yesterday night, I decided to try taking out some crop food, though I wasn't feeling confident I could do it. I held her at a downward angle and massaged the crop. She vomited quite a bit of yellow thick stuff. After a while, though there was still food in the crop, I had to stop because of the stress. 
After a while, she threw up some more times while standing and took out more stuff. I gave her only water after that.
She gave 2 poops, with a paste-like consistency but some green in it. Today morning when I looked in her towel, there is again that black-tarrish poop. I read in a site that the poop turns tarrish when the pigeon has eaten nothing.
She was a healthy pigeon, and she has never had any problems for a really long time. I just hope she pulls through today.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Jay3, 
To reply to your post in the old thread, the vet did not flush the crop because I took her to his house (the hospital was closed). But today, I will get it done.
If I have to treat for yeast/fungal, what medication can I use?
I am planning on giving metro right after her crop gets emptied.
The doctor checked for egg binding, so that is out.
I will give more applesauce today. The crop hasn't emptied yet, so I will just give applesauce and nothing else.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That should be slightly warmed apple sauce, Not hot, mixed with a little bit of water.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

ok, thanks. She doesn't look worse today, and I gave a little applesauce. Will take to the vet and update.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

kunju said:


> Hi Jay3,
> To reply to your post in the old thread, the vet did not flush the crop because I took her to his house (the hospital was closed). But today, I will get it done.
> If I have to treat for yeast/fungal, what medication can I use?
> I am planning on giving metro right after her crop gets emptied.
> ...



Metronidazole is best given after feeding, as it can often upset the stomach. Pepto Bismul, a couple of drops down the throat, 30 min. before feeding and medicating helps to stop the vomiting. But I don't think you can get it there.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Itraconizole is a common wide-net antifungal which works well on birds. Ask you doc about it, but of course have your pal tested for fungal infection as well.

It is good you were able to at least partially empty the crop of the old food. It is also good that she is drinking some water and good that, at least she did some poops which was green and white.

I agree the blockage is still there, but it seems like things will improve....


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I took her to the vet. I luckily had a very good doctor today. The sad thing is they don't flush the crop.
He examined her and took a swab from the mouth, and it tested negative for canker. He has given antifungal medicine Ketoconazole to be given twice a day. I asked him about the feeding part, and he told me that I just have to wait for the crop to empty fully. Once emptied, I need to feed easily digestible grains in small feedings. He told me not to repeat what I did the previous night, holding him upside down and making him vomit, as it could lead to aspiration.
He told me that breeders here in India take out a feather from the pigeon, and make a narrow slit in the crop using the feather. Then empty the food and stich it back. He said that the procedure itself is simple, but he doesn't consider it to be such a severe condition of my pigeon, and personally he feels the procedure is bit extreme (I feel too).
So it is wait for the crop to empty, introduce food slowly, give antifungal, and continue the diet change for a week till the condition subsides.
Thanks everyone for offering me so much support. Rudy looks better after the hospital visit (she didn't like it one bit). I am planning to wait a few more hours for the crop to empty.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

My heart was pounding as I read this.. I am so sorry for the ordeal!

I hope Rudy is better now. Sorry I have not logged in for days.. had food poisoning and almost admitted to hospital again (shellfish, don't eat them!). But I'm ok now and checking the forum.

How did Rudy get the sour crop? She was so blissful with her new love and now she can't poop 

Please keep us updated! Sending healing thoughts your way! HUGS!!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry to hear about the poisoning. Hope you are well now.

Rudy was the last of people I expected to become ill. Till now, I used to see 'sour crop' all over PT and wonder what it is. Now, I know. It is really horrendous, because all I can do is to wait for the crop to empty by itself. No medicine can be put in, until the crop empties. Atleast she is drinking water, and giving watery poops occassionally, so I am hoping by night I have an empty crop. 
I have a few concerns :
1) What if the crop doesn't empty today also? How long can a pigeon live without food, only water?
2) Any ideas about how to massage the crop? I am currently massaging downwards.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I really have no idea. The last time Krik had a sour crop was 3 years ago when she was a baby.

My only guess is to continue to give her ACV water sprinkled with probiotics and hopefully that will flush down whatever is in the bad crop.

I think Rudy will be ok without food for now. As long as she is hydrated with water, maybe a few days will help to detoxify her crop and stomach?

Can she eat by herself or does she only eat through force-feeding? If she can eat by herself, once her crop empties, you can give her soft digestable food. I heard that pigeons with upset stomach should be given small seeds such as millets as they are easier to digest, but I don't know, maybe the experts can advise further?

You are also blessed to have such a great vet. If you see him again, do tell him he has a fan from Singapore.

Keep us posted on Rudy's well-being.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> My only guess is to continue to give her ACV water sprinkled with probiotics and hopefully that will flush down whatever is in the bad crop.



*You can also aid with healing by giving the bird daily dose of "allicidin" powder in the hydration fluid (use very sparingly). It is a natural antifungul /antibiotic without any side-effects except to promote good health.*


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for all advice. It is night, and her crop is still sagging. I saw somewhere that since she is occasionally pooping, things are going to be ok. But considering that poops are very few, it might take a long time to empty the crop. 
Against doctor's advice, I milked her crop again in the afternoon, because the crop fluid was coming out of her nostrils. Now in the night, I tried again, but no fluid is coming.
I don't know if that is good or bad news. Her cere has become mottled yellow.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Seems like she has crop statis because of thrush/candida. I myself have to flush crops when any of my pigeons develop sourcrop. And it has always helped the pigeons. Count of any pigeons died of me doing crop flushing is zero. I wonder why the vet didn't flush the crop by himself. The stagnant fluid,rotten crop contents were very much needed to be flushed out
And there are many other fast acting drugs to fight candida...why he didn't prescribe those!!!???
I guess u need to buckle urself up to flush the crop by urself to help her.
It is also always advised to follow up with enrofloxacin after treating with those drugs.
I'm not sure if the vet is experienced with handling pigeon sour crop cases.
I'm feeling so sad for Rudy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

brocky bieber said:


> Seems like she has crop statis because of thrush/candida. I myself have to flush crops when any of my pigeons develop sourcrop. And it has always helped the pigeons. Count of any pigeons died of me doing crop flushing is zero. I wonder why the vet didn't flush the crop by himself. The stagnant fluid,rotten crop contents were very much needed to be flushed out
> And there are many other fast acting drugs to fight candida...why he didn't prescribe those!!!???
> I guess u need to buckle urself up to flush the crop by urself to help her.
> *It is also always advised to follow up with enrofloxacin after treating with those drugs.*
> ...



What would be the reason to follow up with enrofloxacin?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks a lot brocky. Yes its so unfortunate he did not flush the crop. Though I am doing it, not the entire contents are getting emptied. I have a catheter tube and syringe and stuff, but I am afraid I might end up killing her.
Which other drug is there for candida? Can you please provide the name so I can look for it?
Today is the third day without food. Still no sign of the crop getting emptied, though it is smaller than yesterday. A smell of rotten fish is coming out of her mouth.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Took Rudy to the vet again. The same doctor was there, and I mentioned crop flushing to him again, but he wasn't sure about it, saying there is risk of aspiration. However, when he looked at Rudy, he did attempt to milk out the crop, and told me that there was lot of squishy solid stuff in the lower crop, and it cannot be taken out, but has to go through the system. I told him that this is the 3rd day without food, and I might lose her before the crop empties.
He then referred me to the surgery dept, suggesting the rest of the crop contents be removed by making an incision in the crop. Then another (better ) doctor examined her carefully, and told me there is nothing to worry, as there is no crop impaction to be found, and the crop feels just like normal crop. He has asked me to start hand feeding in small amounts, and to lubricate the crop with 2-3 drops of coconut oil for food to move smoothly. Rudy has become lot weaker, I just hope the food I an giving her goes through.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

We don't empty the crop that way here. You could aspirate the bird. Your vets aren't really very knowledgeable, and for that I am sorry. So frustrating.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

HI Dhanya,
So sorry to hear Rudy is still unwell... the ACV has not flushed the crop yet? I hope Rudy didnt swallow something strange that had clogged up her crop. 

Have you tried putting Rudy on a heated pad, enclosed in a box? The heated pad should be covered with paper towels and regularly heated to ensure continuous warmth. It's better if you rest her crop directly on the heat. Continue feeding ACV water and probios... and monitor her condition.

I think heat really helped Krikky processed her food quickly. I hope it will help Rudy too. 

Please update us. Sending all healing thoughts your way.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

One doc says its sourcrop and another(better) says this...


> Originally Posted by kunju
> another (better ) doctor examined her carefully, and told me there is nothing to worry, as there is no crop impaction to be found, and the crop feels just like normal crop. He has asked me to start hand feeding in small amounts, and to lubricate the crop with 2-3 drops of coconut oil for food to move smoothly


I'm not sure wts up
Nystatin/Medistatin is the drug to be used in candida. The drug which doctor prescribed is expensive,big dosages need to be given and its slow acting, and it needs to be given for a longer period.
Fluconazole is also good and, only 5-10 mg works well... There is also a drug called panalog(for dogs,can be used in emergency. Honestly I've nvr used panalog)
U can ask some experienced vet about these drugs to cross check.



> Originally Posted by Jay3
> What would be the reason to follow up with enrofloxacin?


I have read an article(by some australian forum) which states that enrofloxacin itself can take care of many candida species. So to kill all the species it is advised to follow up with it.
And rotten crop is a place where many harmful bacteria can flourish. To kill them so that they don't flourish...


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Today I took Rudy again, because though I was feeding yesterday, very little poop was coming out, and I knew I can't just keep feeding.
Today, the doctor said the crop has indeed become harder because of food addition, but it is not hard as in impacted crop (or compacted, whichever). It was kind of doughy, squishy. So the doctor is of the opinion it would go through the system eventually.
In addition to the antifungal, he prescribed enrocin and also sodium bicarbonate to be given twice a day. I will take Rudy in the evening to another doctor who knows more about birds.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Brocky, I will ask for Nystatin/medistatin.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Enrocin is enrofloxacin... That's what I was talking about. Yes it will help


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

brocky bieber said:


> One doc says its sourcrop and another(better) says this...
> 
> I'm not sure wts up
> Nystatin/Medistatin is the drug to be used in candida. The drug which doctor prescribed is expensive,big dosages need to be given and its slow acting, and it needs to be given for a longer period.
> ...




The reason I asked is that enrofloxacyn (Baytril) will cause yeast infections. It kills bacteria, both good and bad. So while killing the bad bacteria, it also kills the good bacteria that keep the yeast in check. When medicating with enrofloxacyn or Baytril, you should always give Nystatin or something, along with the Baytril to protect against yeast infection.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

brocky bieber said:


> Enrocin is enrofloxacin... That's what I was talking about. Yes it will help



Enrofloxacin will make matters worse, as it actually causes yeast infection.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

brocky bieber said:


> Enrocin is enrofloxacin... That's what I was talking about. Yes it will help



brocky...you are mis-informed....enrofloxcin causes yeast infection.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think they missed the canker, which would have been easily missed, if they didn't check the throat sample immediately, and it doesn't last long, outside of the body. I also believe the bird needs Metronidazole or similar for canker, Enrofloxacyn for bacteria, and the Nystatin to take care of yeast. Keeping in mind that whenever enrofloxacyn is given, you also need to treat with Nystatin or similar.
The problem is that enrofloxyn given now will just sit in the crop, where it isn't emptying. Should wait on that till the crop is moving.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kunju said:


> Today I took Rudy again, because though I was feeding yesterday, very little poop was coming out, and I knew I can't just keep feeding.
> Today, the doctor said the crop has indeed become harder because of food addition, but it is not hard as in impacted crop (or compacted, whichever). It was kind of doughy, squishy. So the doctor is of the opinion it would go through the system eventually.
> In addition to the antifungal, he prescribed enrocin and also sodium bicarbonate to be given twice a day. I will take Rudy in the evening to another doctor who knows more about birds.


*Never add food to a crop that already has food in it.* Doing so just makes things worse and can result in the death of the bird.
I do believe the underlying problem is canker infection. It can be difficult to diagnose, as the parasite is fragile and disintegrates quickly.
Were the bird here, I would treat with metronidazole. I would give the bird warm 3ccs apple sauce, gently massage the crop, to break things up. The applesause changes the ph balance and helps get things moving again. You must be patient and give it time to work, resisting the urge to give more formula, rather gentle crop massage every hour or so. Yest medication would be beneficial as well.
Personally, I would not give enrofloxicin until the crop has started to empty because it will just sit in the crop and may cause overdose. If the bird was here though, I would give enrofloxcin injection.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Rudy is no more. Yesterday I finally got a doctor to do the crop flush, but the stress of flushing was too much for her. Immediately after returning home, she started open-mouthed breathing and coughed up some vomit, and died in an instant.
I am not sad she died, but I am sad she suffered before it. I want all my animals to die a peaceful, dignified death. But I could not give that to her. She was not a pigeon to us, she was part of family. And a part of me has died along with her.
Some things I learnt as a result of this experience is:
1. Crop flushing should be done while the bird is still strong.
2. Never be hasty to start hand feeding a sick pigeon. I fed him peas 3 days ago, and those peas came out in the flush yesterday.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

They say that candida should be treated with nystatin/fluconazole+enrofloxacin. And after this administration of high levels of vitamin A are necessary. Maybe I'm wrong, I had benefit from it. Yes I know antiboitics let yeast take over. Even 4 days of enrocin can trigger yeast growth but in this case we have already treated for yeast. I hav this article which states use batyril/enro+nystatin or nystatin+enro consecutively but both drugs are imp to cure candida+vit A after it. Yes as Charis said injectable enrofloxacin is best choice. 
Kunju, one precaution u should take care of is that "boil and sterile every equipment u use because yeast spread in and thru used euipments".
And...
Sour crop is caused mainly by
-canker nodules which obstruct the passage of food from crop.
-e.coli+adeno virus
-candidiasis
(Do u approve guys)
Now kunju u need to determine first what the reason really is. Only thn u can help her


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry you lost her. I know she meant a lot to you. At least she is in peace now.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Noooooooo!
Oh so sorry. You did ur best u can. its the vets to blame.
Hope u don't face situation like this again. 
Now Ruku is alone and sad, he lost his partner...!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I am thinking of treating the others, especially Ruku for yeast, since Ruku was in contact with Rudy while she got ill. I can't get Nystatin here in the shops. I think I will continue with the antifungal Rudy was prescribed. 
I am also thinking of releasing Ruku as soon as possible. The less birds I have, the better attention I can give to each of them. For the last few months, I hadn't been able to pay much attention to Rudy because of the other sick birds.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi kunju 
Before releasing Ruku make sure he is fit n healthy for release.
Keep the good work up...


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Ruku is healthy at present. He lost his cere and the black keratin part of his beak due to pox, but he eats seeds fine. But I don't have a flock to release him into- i don't know of any place where pigeons gather for food. The flocks near this flat are always on the roofs of houses, I haven't seen them coming down. I am on the third floor of this flat.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I am sooo sorrryyy!!!   

I'm so speechless... HUGS. Very very saddened for this news...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I'm sorry to hear that. *


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