# my pigeon vomits for 4 days now!



## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

my pigeon vomits for 4 days now! the first 2 days we thought it was because she were expecting an egg (and sometimes she vomits before that) so we didn't mind it much.

the pigeon throws up the seeds she ate but a few hours after eating. the seeds are mostly unprocessed. 

despite that, until today she was eating well, but today she doesn't want seeds anymore, she just ate bread.

and her poop is either a bit foamy white or white mixed with green.

she is all fluffed up and upset.

yesterday we started her on enrofloxacin. today a different vet said that enrofloxacin is not good for birds and gave us some liquid antibiotic (something that starts with A and is related to penicilin). so today she had enrofloxacin in the morning and then in the evening from the second one as well.

please help. we are rather desperate. she is about 2 years old and has been living with us.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK...so *Amoxycillin* is what she is getting now. Or maybe it is called *Clavamox*. Usually, you should give 24 hours Between switching antibiotics...but I understand that she is in a bad state so you wanted to keep her medicated.

~ Stop the bread, stop the seed. Try *handfeeding* thawed, lukewarm peas and corn, one morsel at a time. Try 12 pieces per feeding for the first couple of feedings and work that up to 20-25 pieces. 4 feedings/day...keeping an eye on whether her crop is emptying and she is pooping.

~ Keep her in a VERY *warm* place...I am talking 75-80 degrees F (23 degrees C). A warm room, or use a space heater next to her cage (an oil-filled kind, NOT an electric-coil/fan kind). Or pt an electric heat pad under a layer of towel in her cage, and cover the cage 3/4 with a towel.

Warmth such as this helps kick-start a bird's immune system.

~ Is there any sign of canker (trich) ? Did the vet examine her for canker ???

Let us know how she is doing.

PS...is your vet an Avian Vet ? 

Because Enroflaxin = Baytril = Cipro = Ciproflaxin....which is a really, really, really *GOOD *antibiotic for *all* Birds !


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

Jaye, thank you for replying.

Today we called the vet that gave us the second antibiotics and he said the name is Lincomicin (even though I heard something with A, but anyway). So now I don't know what to do. I am thinking of giving her both (enrofloxacin and this lincomicin) and look today for Nistatin (to make sure she doesn't get Candida). I am very confused. What do you think?

The vet was not an avian vet so I don't trust him that much but when you are desperate any advice is better than nothing. I don't know if he examined her for canker. We asked his what was wrong with the pigeon and he said he can not tell.

And yes, she is surely kept warm.

I am going to look today for frozen peas and corn but I don't know how she is going to accept it (she likes to protest a lot)

Today she is just as fluffy and depressed but it looks like the poop contains more green than before (I guess that is a good sign, no?) and yesterday she did not vomit in the evening anymore (so I guess that is another good sign).


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree with Jaye. Unfortunately this Vet, though well meaning, doesn't sound especially Bird-savvy. Like Jaye mentioned, Enrofloxacin (Baytril) is one of the best and most commonly used broad spectrum antibiotics for use in birds.

I just read up on the medication `Lincomicin' in the Avian Veterinary formulary. The formulary says it is fairly poor for treating gram negative bacteria, but it does have some benefits for treating some gram positive bacteria associated with chronic respiratory illness. It seems like a rather narrow-spectrum antibiotic for an illness where the Vet doesn't know what's wrong. Not saying its the wrong drug, but I'm curious about him prescribing it to you when it goes against the idea of treating broadly when you don't have a clue what's wrong with the patient. Maybe I don't know the full story though.

If I have a bird vomiting personally, and its not from medication, I treat for canker and candida first, with a broad spectrum antibiotic as well. Karyn (Dobato) taught me to use triple Sulfa type antibiotics and that usually works for me, though Amoxicillin and enrofloxacin are fine too. If the bird is well enough I'll worm it too, as worms can cause regurgitation.

Finally I think what Jaye said about hand feeding the bird is important. I had a bird recently where I didn't hand feed it and it lost all its strength from all the meds, vomiting & not getting enough food. Then it passed away in my hands and I was very torn up by my failure to save it. She was such a lovely little hen.

But I have a new sick pigeon here now with bad canker that has been vomiting a lot, so this time I have been hand feeding it when it gets fluffed up and stops eating. It means putting the food, piece by piece, right into the back of the birds throat with its head tilted upwards. My pigeon really hates it because he feels nauseous and doesn't want to eat. But I gritted my teeth and made myself do this until I felt that he looked on the mend. He's finally getting there. 

Personally, i haven't tried force feeding the corn and peas. I have been using small pieces of cut up dog sausage (the dog food you get from the fridge, packaged like a processed meat), and sometimes rehydrated cat kibble, cut in half. I kept my pigeon alive feeding 20 pieces at a time, 2-3 feedings a day depending on how well it kept down its food.

Anyway good luck, I hope this is something that will heal up soon, and that its related to egg laying like you thought in the first place.


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

Thank you for answering, Bella_F. Today I can say for sure that the vomiting stopped and the poop is starting to get more consistency. But what I don't like is that she is very fluffy and very inactive. It is the 3rd day of antibiotic. Is this good?


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

do u have her on antifungals???


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hey !

We have *Goga* and *MisterGuGu* on the same thread !!!! 

(and am I correct that both are Bulgarian...if I remember right ? )

Mister Gugu...personally...after hearing what Bella looked up about the Linomicin...I would go back to the Ciproflaxin (Enrofloxacin) and stop the Lincomicin. I think the Enrofloxacin is the better bet here.

I would also check for canker in the mouth...any signs of growths or phlegm in the mouth ? White or yellow specks or growths in the mouth or the throat ??

You say you have kept her very warm and in a quiet place..this is good !!! Fluffing out isn't a good sign, it is a sign of illness. You say she is pooping more consistently and they look better...what are you feeding her now ????


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Jaye said:


> Hey !
> 
> We have *Goga* and *MisterGuGu* on the same thread !!!!
> 
> ...



lol, not bulgarian. Serbian  close tho very close.
i would so put that pigeon on antifungal. giardia, coccidia.. just to be on the safe side..
keep her extra warm. flufing up means she is trying to preserve her heat. They put a lot of effort to keep themselfs warm, so u have to do it for her.


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

Jaye, currently we are giving her both antibiotics(enrofloxacin and lincomicin), one in the morning, one in the evening; plus nistatin plus liquid vitamins.

We checked her mouth - looks clean and pinky.

Until yesterday she ate bread and some seeds, but yesterday it didn't look to me like she ate as much as I wanted her to, so today we started the peas+corn diet. We fed her now in the morning about 14 pieces. She hated it at first, but then towards the end she got used to being handfed.

goga82, what antifungal do you recommend? what's the name? and do you think it is ok to add to what she is already taking?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Mrgugu,

Nystatin is an antifungal so you're doing ok with that.

Please keep an eye on how many droppings she's doing, and their quality. If she isn't passing much you'll need to feed her more.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

goga82 said:


> lol, not bulgarian. Serbian  close tho very close.


Oops...I never quite get these things right....


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

mistergugu said:


> Jaye, currently we are giving her both antibiotics(enrofloxacin and lincomicin), one in the morning, one in the evening; plus nistatin plus liquid vitamins.
> 
> We checked her mouth - looks clean and pinky.
> 
> ...



since ur from bulgaria.. im sure u can walk into any of the pharmacies and ask for fluconazole.. that is my favorite antifungal. i never lost anybody treating with fluconazole. im sure anybody in the pharmacy will know what you are talking about. its not to late to start her on that. .
since nystatin isnt doing it's best. do you guys have veterinary pharmacies over there.. try that too..
has she been drinkin water ok..maybe u should start rehydrating her too.. just to be on the safe side.. i seen a lot of fluffed up dehydrated pigeons.. try that too. i would try just about anything. it dont hurt


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Jaye said:


> Oops...I never quite get these things right....


thats ok jaye. we'r such close neighboors.. ur allowed to make a mistake lol


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

Jaye and Bella_F, today has been the 2nd day when she is fed only corn+peas in her beak. Is this diet enough for her, should we supplement it with seeds?

Also, how are we going to know she is ready to eat on her own again?

goga82, thank you for the fluconazole suggestion. I don't know whether to change her medication. Maybe we'll wait a couple of days more.

Today she was still fluffed up.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hello.

As long as you feed between 75-100 pieces of corn and/or peas a day, she will maintain her weight OK. You can give as much as 120, if you divide into 4 feedings and make sure her crop is empty before feeding.

How are her poops ?

That she is still fluffed up and inactive after 5 days of antibiotic is not a great sign...

But I also re-read your antibiotic schedule. It is not good. Cipro needs to be administered to a Pigeon or any bird twice a day, between 8-12 hours apart. If it is only given once, it wears off after 12 hours and then the bacteria has a chance to fight back for 12 hours before the next dose is gives...so it allows bacteria to develop a resistance.

Now, I also found THIS on another thread...and Plamenh is pretty good with his information, so I think it is trustworthy:



plamenh said:


> Most common cause is yeast called *Candida albicans*. That is the reason why yeast overgrowth in pigeons is called Candidiasis (*Sour Crop *is another name).
> *Symptoms:*
> Typical signs are puffy crop, slow crop, vomiting, sour smell from bird’s mouth, foamy diarrhea.
> *Cause:*
> ...


Personally...I think you have two choices here:

1) Stop the Linomycin, and go to Cipro two times a day, continue the handfeeding of peas/corn, add the _*fluconizole*_ and discontinue the Nystatin...*OR* or continue the *Nystatin* ...still keep her quiet and warm, and see if anything changes. 

~So in this case, she is still getting an antibiotic (Cipro) and an antifungal.

If I read correctly, Cipro can be administered with the Nystatin and the Nystatin counter-acts the Cipro tendency to spur yeast growth. So I am not sure why this isn't working...unless it is because of the Linomycin.

2) Since there is suggestion that the antibiotics inflame the yeast infections ...so you could stop *all* antibiotics and just treat for a yeast infection using *only the *Nystatin (Medistatin). Continue hand-feeding and warmth.

3) Same as 2) except stop the Nystatin and use the Fluconizole, as Goga suggests...instead

~ In 2) and 3), all antibiotics stop and the only treatment is one antifungal.

I think either of these are a better course than what the Pigeon is getting now.


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

the good news is that she doesn't vomit anymore the the poop is more solid than before. so the problem is that left alone she doesn't eat or drink, is all fluffled up and inactive. the poop is a bit more solid now but a bit foamy.

if we give her enrofloxacin twice a day, what dosage should that be each in mg?

what's the correct daily dosage for nistatin and fluconizole in mg?

which one of the 2 programs would you choose?


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

today she ate about 80 pieces and i have seen her about twice opening her beak ( i don't know if it matters)

her last poop: on a white substance that looks like it has some small air bubbles inside, consistent dark green color material in the shape of snakes.


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

"Emptying the crop, flushing with diluted solution of baking soda"
how do you empty the crop? how do you flush? what proportion water and what proportion baking soda?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

mistergugu said:


> "Emptying the crop, flushing with diluted solution of baking soda"
> how do you empty the crop? how do you flush? what proportion water and what proportion baking soda?


Hi Mistergugu,

This is an advanced procedure for a vet or someone experienced. I don't think you'd need to do this. 

For now, the main problem is that she's still fluffed up , inactive, and not eating. When a medicine treatment is working, the bird usually shows improvement after 2-3 days,  such becoming more active and no longer fluffing up.

If it were me, I would stop adding vitamins at night, because they can interfere with the absorption of antibiotics.

I would treat for canker also. Can you get fishzole where you live?

How much Enrofloxacin are you giving?


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

the first day a forth of a 5 mg , then a half and then a full 5 mg. if i am to give her twice a day, how many mg each?

how much nistatin? how much fluconizole in mg per day?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Mistergugu,

With the enrofloxacin, the dosage is 20mg per kg bodyweight, per day. So a full 5mg tablet would be fine for a 250 gram pigeon, once a day. 250 grams is fairly light for a pigeon though, as some larger pigeons are as heavy as 400 grams, in which case you'd need a slightly higher dose, closer to one tablet and a half per day. If you can weigh your pigeon that would be helpful, otherwise the 5 mg tablet once daily should be safe. I shoudl say that what Jaye said about needing to dose twice a day with cipro is correct, but Cipro is a different medicine to enrofloxacin. Cipro is the human form of Baytril, and it does need to be dosed twice daily.

With the Nystatin, I give 0.15 cc twice per day. It is a safe medicine that doesn't get absorbed into the pigeon's body, so if you haven't been giving that exact dose, it should be ok. The fluconzole is a stronger antifungal that is absorbed into the pigeon's system, and is for rarer fungal infections. You probably don't need to use it right now, and it could make your pigeon sicker. It would be better to find some fishzole or metronidazole to treat for canker, as this can cause vomiting and is far more likely to be the problem than a rare fungal disease.

PS. Have you looked into the pigeon's mouth yet? Can you see any white or yellow growths in there? Make sure light is shining in the mouth when you check this.
So, in summary:


-Continue with the enrofloxacin, 5mg daily , for 10-14 days. Try to weigh your pigeon and report it here for a more exact dosage. 

-Give nilstat daily, anywhere between o.15 and 0.3 cc is safe. This needs to be given for ten days to clear up fungal infections.

- keep up the hand feeding until you see your pigeon respond to the medicine, ie when he becomes less fluffed up, & starts to take an interest in eating again.

-Please, please(!) get something to treat your little guy for canker. Fishzole should be something you can get there. Canker is one of the most common pigeon illnesses and its far more likely to be the cause of your pigeon's illness & vomiting than a rare fungus.

-Please think about getting some Moxidectin for worming your pigeon, when he starts to look stronger. Worms can also make a pigeon vomit. But you should never worm a very sick pigeon without a lot of guidance and/or experience. It can be fatal.

Finally, I know how tiring hand feeding is, so I wanted to give you some praise and encouragement with it. You shouldn't need to do this for much longer...as soon as the pigeon has the right medicine, it will start to improve quite quickly and it will want to eat again. Keep very small seeds like millet around in case this happens, and offer those first if you think he is on the mend.

Hope that helps!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK...first you need to know the suspension/dilution.

If the medicine is already a liquid, it will say the suspension on the label (such as 20mg/ml, 100mg/ml, etc.)

If the medicine is a pill, it will say the strength of the pill on the label (such as 250mg, or 500mg, etc.)

A pill must be crushed in a certain amount of water to make the correct suspension. So...if you have a pill of 500mg and you need a suspension of 50mg/ml....you need to crush and dissolve the pill in 10ml of water....etc....

*Cipro.* 50mg/ml suspension. Dosage of .3cc, 2x a day.

*Fluconizole.* 10mg/ml suspension. Dosage .15cc, 2x a day.

I do not know Nystatin dosages, sorry.

Bella, Gugu has said there is no sign of canker at all. based upon the post Plemenh made a while back...I really, really think this is a yeast infection...thus going with Plemenh's suggestion is a good bet, as opposed to starting a canker med such as metronidazole or something else right now. Also she is just discontinuing the Linamycin, which probably should never have been there to begin with. I don't think a 3-med regimen is wise at this point.

Gugu...your question is difficult...because either option is a decent choice. Bella suggests continuing Enro/Cipro with Nystatin. This is what Plemenh's post mentions.

Other people suggest that antibiotics make yeast flourish, so Nystatin or Fluconizole work better when there is no antibiotic as well.

I would first try Enro/Cipro + Nystatin just for a couple of more days. If nothing improves...stop the Enro/Cipro altogether.


mistergugu said:


> "Emptying the crop, flushing with diluted solution of baking soda"
> how do you empty the crop? how do you flush? what proportion water and what proportion baking soda?


Yes, as Bella says..ignore that...I was thinking of excising it from the quote, but for some reason did not. That is going a bit too far and most folks would never do this...


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

For anyone interested, ere's the entire thread...it just sounds a lot like your girl's problem, Gugu.....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/what-exactly-is-a-pigeon-yeast-infection-41055.html?highlight=foamy


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, Sorry about not seeing that Canker was ruled out already. Was it ruled out by the vet check, or was it ruled out because there are no yellow or white growths in the mouth? 

Is the antibiotic mistergugu using definitely Cipro, then, not enrofloxacin? Enrofloxacin keeps getting mentioned so I'm confused now.


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## mistergugu (Jul 8, 2009)

Hello ladies, so we decided to get rid of lincomicin and continued with enrofloxacin plus double the dose of nistatin. And we can see improvements. The pigeon is more active and eats on her own. In a couple of days maximum we are going to stop the antibiotic and continue for another couple of days with nistatin alone. Thank you for your help.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

mistergugu said:


> Hello ladies, so we decided to get rid of lincomicin and continued with enrofloxacin plus double the dose of nistatin. And we can see improvements. The pigeon is more active and eats on her own. In a couple of days maximum we are going to stop the antibiotic and continue for another couple of days with nistatin alone. Thank you for your help.


Great work Mrgugu, Its really nice to hear that she's eating on her own now. You must have her on the right medicine.

Just for your information, Nystatin needs to be given for 10 days .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Glad to hear that your pigeon is doing better ! You could not of had better help . Hoping that your bird has a full recovery !


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