# Finally! My Damascenes have a chick!



## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

*Finally! My Damascenes have a chick! Update...*

After months waiting for this pair to give me some babies....  Lots of infertile eggs and lots of disappointment, I am sooo happy to see this little guy under Mom. I am excited to see it grow into a beautiful copy of his/her parents. I have never been able to find another pair of these birds, and I hope this guys works out. It would be great if it was a cock, as I have a lone unrelated hen I would love to pair him up with....


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey Jimmy, 

That is WONDERFUL, and I remember reading about your damascenes and how rare they are nowadays. I sure do hope that this little baby survives. Yes, a male would be ideal to father more offspring for you. Those birds really are stunning....all your birds are stunning. 

You've picked some of the most beautiful of the domestics in your desire to create your pigeon managerie


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

Awwww shucks Brad!! Those compliments are making my head swell.. Think you can do anything for my wallet? LOL


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What a beautiful pigeon family! 

Terry


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## rialize (Dec 28, 2005)

What beautiful pigeons! I've never seen any quite like them.

I admire your perseverance, Jimmy. You must be so proud. Hopefully luck keeps rolling your way!

Laura


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I just love baby pics. I hope you have success with this baby Jimmy. All the more so if you are trying to keep a rare breed going. They are really something to look at aren't they. 

Cameron


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

Thanks Everyone.... I don't know that I would call them rare. I know that they used to be much more popular in the 60's. I know there are a few breeders in Canada and the U.S. I just haven't seen any since I got them late last summer. I just think they are stunning, and to me, represent a perfect specimen of the pigeon in form, colour and markings...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

jimmyrenex said:


> . I don't know that I would call them rare. I know that they used to be much more popular in the 60's. I know there are a few breeders in Canada and the U.S. I just haven't seen any since I got them late last summer.



Hi Jimmy, 


"Rare" might be the wrong word in terms of specimens around the world but I do believe that they are not very common in North America. Runts are pretty "rare" too as are many other breeds. The old Europeans developed a lot of these magnificent varieties and not all were popular here in North America. Therefore, many have almost become "rare" breeds. 

It's funny, I don't know if you feel this way or not, but with your damascenes or my runts, I almost feel like I HAVE to keep them alive and ensure the breed in our country or continent. I want more babies down the road...WAY down the road. But if and when I do, I am hoping to pass the interest onto someone else here to keep the breed "alive".   I feel it's important in some strange way I guess.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jimmy, the baby is so sweet but the parents are something else. They have such sweet, pretty faces. The one on the left has the cutest expression.

Thank you,

Maggie


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Gorgeous birds - so glad they had a successful hatch! Does the baby's skin seem plum colored?


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

*Brad- *I would have to agree with your definition of “rare”. I know that Damascenes are much more popular in Europe. And I know what you mean about Runts not being as popular as other “utility gone fancy” breeds. I have only seen Runts at the market once, and as you know, were extremely expensive compared to other fancy stuff. I think once a breed goes out of favour with the fanciers, less and less people breed them. Then the price shoots up and starts the whole cycle all over again. And yes, I do feel like more people should breed them to keep the interest alive. There were birds of certain colours I had when I was younger (over 20 years ago), that I just don't see anymore. Where did they go? 

*Terri* - Why yes... the skin seems pretty dark and plum coloured. I guess you know a little bit about Damascenes. Plum coloured eye cere and dark beaks and nails...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yes, I agree...Jimmy. It's kinda sad actually and I don't know why any breed has to suffer the indignity of falling through the cracks. Each of them are so unique, and with the exception of some short faced tumblers/owls, oversized and heavy foot-feathered breeds, I mostly find them all to be worthy of maintaining.

Humans interfere too much sometimes and with saying this, I sometimes feel sorry for such extravagant and "delicate" breeds. Same applies to dogs, cats, horses etc. There are times that we as humans go TOO FAR in our quests to change things.

For the most part though, pigeon breeding has been centered around breeding unique patterns, feather types and colour variations. Certainly through all of our interference with genetics, some breeds have become unsustainable on their own. They are/will always be domestic pigeons at our whims....and to me, that is hard to deal with.



I know you understand though


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

There are so many stories I have heard, programmes on TV etc about people in this country who raise miniature horses, breeds of goats that would be extinct without intervention and types of cattle that are no longer considered "economic". They don't give enough milk or meat or whatever and so are cast-off and the genetic line would be lost if not for people just like you and Brad. 

Anyone of you who takes the time and resources to protect and preserve a rare or declining breed gets an extra special blessing in life. Darwin would be proud of you too!

All the best to you guys,

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Camrron said:


> There are so many stories I have heard, programmes on TV etc about people in this country who raise miniature horses, breeds of goats that would be extinct without intervention and types of cattle that are no longer considered "economic". They don't give enough milk or meat or whatever and so are cast-off and the genetic line would be lost if not for people just like you and Brad.
> 
> Anyone of you who takes the time and resources to protect and preserve a rare or declining breed gets an extra special blessing in life. Darwin would be proud of you too!
> 
> ...


Thanks Cameron, 

It's a difficult debate to have, considering that humans created all of these breeds of animals that would have never developed on their own or at least not so quickly.

Miniature this, bald that, dwarfs, giants etc....we have totally messed with the gene pool of animals in so many ways. Where do we stop?...where does it end? What breeds are destined to never endure? 

Too many questions, too many "what ifs"...it's all so hard to comprehend at times and I don't have the answers. What is done is done and sometimes, it's hard to know what is best or how to continue.


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

*Thanks Cameron.* But I have to admit, I breed them more for the selfish fact that I think they are beautful, and it pleases me to have them in my possession. I don't think my breedings will change the total population of a particular breed, but if it creates interest in a few people who then in turn breed them for themselves, then I would feel totally great about that!

*Brad*- Funny you mention how humans screwed up genetics for many animal species. I keep a small collection of large reptiles in my home as well. You wouldn't believe what some people have done to certain species of snakes just to get different colours to make money. Through genetic manipulation, they have created animals that can no longer breed and are often born with deformities.(missing eyes, stillbirths, shortened life spans, etc.) Out of 30 eggs, if only 1 comes out with the right colours and the rest die horribly, it is praised as a wonderful success! It sickens and angers me!


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Thanks Cameron,
> 
> It's a difficult debate to have, considering that *humans created all of these breeds of animals *that would have never developed on their own or at least not so quickly.
> 
> ...


The only way I can respond to you is to say:

Remember the Dodo and the passenger pigeon. People may have created a few variations but a lot of others were also driven into extinction. I think it is important to value and protect the variations of life that we have now no matter how they came about. Runts included (and they are good looking birds Brad!) So I insist on saying good for you. No telling me off about this. I won't stand for it you know.

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

jimmyrenex said:


> [
> *Brad*- Funny you mention how humans screwed up genetics for many animal species. I keep a small collection of large reptiles in my home as well. You wouldn't believe what some people have done to certain species of snakes just to get different colours to make money. Through genetic manipulation, they have created animals that can no longer breed and are often born with deformities.(missing eyes, stillbirths, shortened life spans, etc.)


Hi Jimmy, 

Yep, I know, and the same holds true for various breeds of cats, dogs, horses, pigs and PIGEONS. There are many breeds of pigeons that have lost their ability to successfully hatch and raise their own young. This is what I'm talking about. This is where that fine line gets skewed and distorted. 

For my runts, they are slow breeders...unable to fly to safety. They would die out as a wild species. Same is true with all the heavily muffed pigeons...these pigeons, without the aid of humans trimming their leg muffs, would be unable to raise future babies in the wild, and they would be singled out as well by predators....just like runt pigeons.

These entire scenerios are being played out by all sorts of domestic animals of all kinds. We've effectively "ruined" their chances at survival in any natural sense. 

It's a hard topic, I don't know what to think either. (sigh)


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Like I said, think of the Dodo.

Protected, thriving and in isolation for God knows how long, yet it survived until the advent of the Europeans. 

Cameron.


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Jimmy, 

Congrats on the baby Damascene!!! Got here a bit late and missed a lot of this thread, had to catch up, lol. 

Just wanted to offer encouragement with them, I have several and went through the same problems with them at first. Not sure why damascene's tend to have a large number of infertile eggs. 

The first batch of actual babies that hatched didn't make it long, and I was about to give up, but the second batch did survive, one baby under a foster pair, one under the natural parents. 

It's wonderful to see others interested in this breed. I got mine sort of accidentally.............went to look at some fantails and came home with these instead. I started with five, two mated pairs and an extra hen. Now we're up to nine total, including a third pair that consists of two youngsters raised here. They do seem to have problems in a community loft, not aggressive enough to hold thier own nest box, so we've purchased materials to build them thier own pen. Just need a nice weather day now, lol. 

One heads up, at first I was disappointed with the young, once they reached the age they could fly, I thought I'd done something wrong, as they looked rather.........well............ugly. Wasn't until they hit about 6 months old and moulted into adult plumage they looked great. Not sure if all are like this or not, as the ones I have are the only ones I've ever seen live. 

One question for the damascene fans here, ............I've always understood all of them have the same patterns and color, but I've seen others advertised on places like eggbid. DO they actually come in other colors? From what I've read they don't, but who knows? 

This link is great for a little history on this dying breed.......http://members.aol.com/duiven/highlight/damascene/damascen.htm

Also, I did have a young female damascene that ended up accidentally pairing off with another male mutt in our loft. I decided to let them raise one before I fixed it (probably makes the serious breeders cringe, but I was curious and the egg was already halfway developed LOL) The resulting baby was very interesting, it's not quite a damascene color, not quite a blue bar. Will try to get a pic of him to share. 

Keep up the good work and spread your love of this wonderful breed!!!

Dave


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, look at turkeys raised for meat. Poor things can't ever reproduce naturally. It's all done by A.I.
Daryl


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

*Cameron* Bang on about the Dodo. Doesn't make one think too highly of the human race. We are so smart, and yet we can be so stupid at the same time.

*Dave* Thankyou for your personal account dealing with your Damascenes. I have lost a baby from this pair that was 10 days old as well. I also had one come to term and never hatch. I am just so nervous about this little guy. He looks fine, and they are feeding him, but so did the last one, and he didn't make it. If this little guy doesn't make it, I will foster the next clutch. I have some incredible parents that would do an amazing job taking care of them. They are pretty nervous birds compared to alot of other breeds I have. Maybe they don't feel secure enough. I do have them with another pair in a nice sized pen. Maybe I will seperate them so they can be alone. 
Thanks again...  and nice pic of the Damascene mix.... Still has the pretty beak and head form.


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

I'm afraid things are taking a turn for the worst for this little guy... I've been watching him for a few days, and at first I thought he was doing ok. His crop wasn't full and he was growing slowly, but he seemed alert. I checked on him this afternoon, and he looked terrible! He seemed cold and listless. He is now inside warming up under my foster Doves with the little Owl chick. He seems to be slowly coming back to life. His breathing has quickened since he came in. I bought some ZuPreem Baby Bird Hand Feeding Formula (Embrace Level). It is supposed to be really good. I will let him warm up for a couple hours before I try to feed him. I am keeping my fingers crossed... I really want this guy to make it. Any ideas from you guys would be great.
Thanks....


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Jimmy. I'm sorry I can't offer you practical information as I have never raised baby pijies.

Just want to say: I hope your baby makes it and am sending WARM and HEALING THOUGHTS!!! His/Her parents are beautiful!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Jimmy,

ZuPreem is excellent .. keep this baby very, very warm and do the formula kind of thin.

Best of luck to you and the baby. Please keep us posted.

Terry


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Maybe I am out of line here but has anyone used soaked kitten food? It can help put weight on fast and has alot of protein. At least that is what we use on some rehab babies. Just a thought. Hope everything works out and pet your baby for me would love to be able to hold a baby pigeon again 

You're right .. soaked kitten or puppy kibble works very well for high protein and easy to digest.

Terry


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm going to make sure there's lots of positive energy sent your lil one's way!


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi Jimmy,
I've come in late to this thread...I hope you little one is still doing ok.
As Terry has mentioned make sure you keep him warm.
As for the feeding sounds like you will have to tube feed him.
Here is an article on tube feeding pigeons with pics and info on how much to give:
http://members.aol.com/duiven/medical/feedbaby.htm
Here is anothersite with similar info:
http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon1.html
Get a syringe and place some clear flexible clear tubing on it. You then fill the tube with the mix, and feed this into the crop.
Basically you want to start with a thin mix and a small amount (just enough till you see the babies crop full, them keep an eye on the crop, it will shrink as the baby digests the food, when it is small again it's time to feed again.
On average it should be about every three hours at this stage.
As you the baby gets older you need to mix a little thicker progressively, and the feedings will get further apart...the sites will give a bit more detailed info.
Hope this helps, please keep us updated.
Regards
Alaska


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

Thanks everyone for your help, but I am sorry to report that the little guy didn't make it. I am very disappointed, as this was their second chick that made it this far, then died. He looked like he was coming around, then all of a sudden, stopped moving and passed. He was at stage where he I thought he should have made it. He was fully covered in pin feathers. I am beginning to believe there is another underlying problem with this pair. *DaveD* had some of the same issues with his Damascenes (late hatchings, infertile eggs, baby deaths, etc.) He has had to foster 3 out of 4 of his babies. It is confusing, as the parents look extremely healthy, and the only other pair that is with them raise amazing babies that grow quickly. I will definitely foster the next batch of eggs they have and see if that makes a difference. I am now more determined to make sure I get some healthy offspring from this pair.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jimmy, 

I'm so sorry that your little damascene chick didn't make it Perhaps you can get the parents tested for any bacterial problems that might be going on. I worry too that there could be underlying problems with the parents and even if you do hand raise some chicks, the outcome might be the same. Bacterial infections can take the chicks out very easily as can other things like canker but I think you would have noticed if there were lesions in it's mouth/throat. 

I'm really sorry, I know how much you wanted this chick to survive


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry the baby didn't make it.
As Brad mentioned, maybe you can get the parents tested before you let them breed again.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jimmy, I'm very sorry the little fellow didn't make it. 

Maggie


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm so very sorry your little one passed


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Darn!!*

I am so sorry your little one didn't make it!  

Perhaps the next time, with fostering...I will hope for the best!!

The testing advice sounds good...sure couldn't hurt and may prevent future heartache...


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Sorry to hear the little one didn't make it 
I had similar problems with the first four babies from my pigeons. They hatched and grew just to pin feather stage and then all died.
The last was from canker and it was gasping and had lesions.
Whilst the last canker sufferer was with me I took it to an excellent avian vet who specialises in pigeons and he tried his best to help him out, but he didn't make it.
However, as a result of this visit I left with many supplements, vitamins and additives for the adult pigeons food and water.
After this boost in their diet they proceeded in successfully raising many babies.
And I now have a dozen pigeons (The Dirty Dozen  )
None of my adult pigeons looked ill at the time, but in boosting their diet they became very robust, as well as the babies (all you need to do is look through the archives to see how big the first baby, Elle was), and they had no problems looking after the babies, that themselves looked larger and stronger as they were being fed the supplements etc from the parents.
I would recommend something similar for your Damascenes, they can only be the better for it, and they may surprise you and end up pumping out many babies...I know I have to stop mine now...they are so healthy they want to breed constantly!
Regards
Alaska


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

So sorry the baby didn't make it.  Sure hope you can find the cause and raise some healthy Damascenes. They are such beautiful birds!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'd seriously consider Paratyphoid as the problem ..

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Jimmy,

I'm so sorry to hear the baby didn't make it.

Please do get the birds checked out, as one or both, may not display any symptoms but can be carriers and contagious to their offspring, as well as others.


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

Thanks everyone for the kind words.... I am taking steps to learn more about meds and would like some help from some members... I will start a new thread about it....Thanks again.


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