# Pigeon attacked by seagull



## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Two days ago i rescued a pigeon from the beak of a seagull.
He/she (Pij) is fine, eating and drinking and pooping well.

I have a problem with a cut in his skin. I do not know if that opening is normal or not. I couldn't figure out by comparing with the other healthy side which is covered by feathers.

The pictures are graphic.

First day after rescue










Second day after rescue


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There shouldn't be an opening in the skin.
Did you start him on antibiotics?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

He will start the antibiotic tomorrow Amoxicillin. He is half the size of a pigeon so i am thinking to give less than 10 suspension.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Will the wound heal? It's quite deep? I heard of medical skin glue. Anybody knows about it? The hole looks dry inside. i put topical ointement in the cut..should i stop doing this. How can I stitch it..Please don't ask to go to a vet.

For a better view i circled the area and marked the upper part of the leg.

Day 1 of the rescue










Day 2 of the rescue


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Imo opinion I think you are asking allot of the members, as we are not veterinarians here. If the help the sick and injured birds you are taking in need knowlegeable care then perhpaps you need to work with a educated rehabber close to you. I sure do hope someone can guide you on this bird.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> Imo opinion I think you are asking allot, as we are not veterinarians here. If the help the sick and injured birds you are taking in need knowlegeable care then perhpaps you need to work with a educated rehabber close to you. I sure do hope someone can guide you on this bird.


There's nothing wrong is asking alot. I am sure some of the members have been in this situation and some answers will come. I prefer asking everything at once rather that do it in a time of a week or more, when it may be too late to get the wound closed...my opinion


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dima...the bird can't wait until tomorrow for antibiotics. With an open wound the time is short to stark the antibiotic before the bird reaches the *path of no return*. Personally, I would not put any more topical cream into that wound. Pigeons are extremely resilient and I think he will heal but you need to start oral antibiotics. At this point, every minute counts.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

as said we are not vets here, diganosing by pictures is hard to do..it looks like a wound that has been there for some days.. can you suture wounds? like I said, perhpaps you need to work with a educated rehabber close to you, if you are going to do this often. an antibiotc oral is the first case I would guess at.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks Charis.. i will not use cream in the wound. I found the name of the "glue": tissue adhesive is called. I will go at the pharmacy to buy it.
I will put him on antibiotics ASAP.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> as said we are not vets here, diganosing by pictures is hard to do..it looks like a wound that has been there for some days.. can you suture wounds? like I said, perhpaps you need to work with a educated rehabber close to you, if you are going to do this often. an antibiotc oral is the first case I would guess at.


There is no rehabber around me unfortunately. If i knew any rehabber my life would be easier ,as i rescue pigeons quite often.
The wound looks old because Flamazine works very well.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dima...don't glue anything. Let it heal on it's own. You don't want to *glue in*, possible infection.
The surgical gluing should only be done by someone experienced.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

I would check to see if the glue is toxic. As pigeon clean them selves it might pick at it. As far as I know tissue adhesive is similar to super glue. My son had some put on him. It worked great left no scar but he was not licking him self and ingesting it. I dont know if that means he didnt absorb it but it wasnt in his belly. May be different to absorb than to ingest I dont know.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> Dima...don't glue anything. Let it heal on it's own. You don't want to *glue in*, possible infection.
> The surgical gluing should only be done by someone experienced.


And what is going to happened? The wound will heal open. It that good? The flesh inside looks dry.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

*Best suited for small, superficial lacerations, it may also be used with confidence on larger wounds where subcutaneous sutures are needed. This adhesive is relatively easy to use following appropriate wound *preparation
DERMABOND
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2000/0301/p1383.html


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if he does not get infection it should scar over.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

tjc1 said:


> I would check to see if the glue is toxic. As pigeon clean them selves it might pick at it. As far as I know tissue adhesive is similar to super glue. My son had some put on him. It worked great left no scar but he was not licking him self and ingesting it. I dont know if that means he didnt absorb it but it wasnt in his belly. May be different to absorb than to ingest I dont know.


The pigeon cannot eat the glue. You apply it and keep the pressure on for a few min untill is closed. I would worry about Flamazine cream which is more toxic as far as i know.
Thanks.
It's good to know someone tried the unconventional way and it worked.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

If the wound is old and dry it may be to late anyway. Doctors would not stitch something that is dry as the blood flow is not there anymore. If you do do it make sure to really clean it out to get the vessel at the end of the skin flowing as the dry just wont heal together. I actually had a doctor open a deep cut between my finger to make the blood flow again


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the tissue looks too thick to use derma bond on it, from what I can see of the poor photos. it may just make a mess. as said don't use it.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I will call different vets to ask for their oppinion.I hope they are kind enough to answer.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dima said:


> And what is going to happened? The wound will heal open. It that good? The flesh inside looks dry.


It will fill in and heal over.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> It will fill in and heal over.


You are right. Didn't come across my mind. Lots of people had deep cuts and , yes, they filled in and became like scars. It was so simple.
Thanks Charis

Another issue, there is also a pucture, close to 1 cm, on the back of the pigeon, where the wing connects to the rib (back side not chest), The ligament is there; right by the ligament the pucture is ; it's a hole as matter of fact. (because i have a cheap phone, i cannot take clear pictures). The pigeon's wings are not broken.

Another observation, i am not to sure if he has splayed leg, didn't see him walking too much, be when he stands right lek is always forward sideway (just as a person would rest on one leg) This leg is not the one where he has the cut. Or may be the other leg is sore from the wound and Pij keeps it closer.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The wounds are very painful, causing pain through out his body and probably why he stands that way. 
I think he may be a she.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> The wounds are very painful, causing pain through out his body and probably why he stands that way.
> I think he may be a she.


Any reason that Pij is a SHE?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The face. I might think differently in person though.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Just caught up with this thread. Charis and Spirit wings are right......Don't use the glue! You don't want to close in any infection. Oral antibiotics are a priority for this bird. Clavamox (if you can get it from a vet) would be the best option for those injuries. The dead skin will slough off and heal over by itself. I keep Nolvasan 'surgical scrub' on hand to clean cuts and punctures (even on me).


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I am not going to use any glue. 

There is not such thing as skin cut..it's a cut in the flesh, about 1 cm deep, 2 cm long. The picture is clear to me, despite the quality. 

He is on Baytril, whatever was left from BigBoy..enough for 2 days. I am waiting for the order Enroflox ( Enrofloxacine) to be delivered (it was ordered last week).


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Updates on the skin. I realized that the skin was pull by seagull and where it's close to the drum, it was pulled hard until it came off the flesh; this is not like seagull pecked her skin, but pulled









In that wound i could see feathers, i thought there are roots of her feathers. But i pulled and here's what came out:


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I ran out of Flamazine. 
I have Polysporin, but also Fluocinolone. Which one is better?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow, poor little pij! Glad to hear it is on Baytril now.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pij is doing good. it seems to be a very small pigeon and skinny. She eats a lot by herself and drinks water. She can fly, very smooth..it's easy to catch and now she steps on my hand when i put my palm underneath her feet. I am getting attched to her..i know that it has to be released to her flock. Weather is cold 2 degrees celcius..i am worried that by the time her feathers grow back it will be winter. I wonder if she stays for longer, will she still be releasable?

Thank you all for the advise about her skin. As soon as those feathers stuck underneath her skin were taken out, that deep wound/cut healed within a few days.


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

It is nice that you are taking such good care of her.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

She's a pretty little thing! I'm glad she's (or he's) healing well. I wouldn't release too soon -- better, in my opinion, to keep her for the winter, and if she ends up too tame to release, at least she is safe and happy. 

Of course, this is how I ended up with far more birds than I ever bargained for, lol....


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I noticed a lump on Pij's toe.
Doesn't look like Pox. It's growing from inside like a fat lump.

While his chest is healing, his back still looks a bit bad. I also noticed those lumps on his back.

There's this yellow crust you see on skin which is dry and peels off.

Pij was on Amoxicillin for 10 days.
No sign of canker in mouth, no smell; poops a good but i smell them musky, almost like vinegar.
Any ideas what can it be.

Lump on toe:

















Back of Pij, by the spine with a crusty lump and a few small lumps:









Chest healing ok









He was isolated for 3 or 4 weeks. Now he is in a cage with my pigeons inside (my pigeons are not in the cage). Any danger for my pigeons?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I need help. Tea tree doesn't work. It's Pox, a small lump around the eye is poping. This viral stuff is quick. What do i administer as medicine. 
Again my question: is it safe to be in the same room with my pigeons and in the cage.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Dima,

The toe does seem to have what looks like a typical pox blister. But don't panic, as most pigeons who get this will recover within 1-3 months, so long as they are kept well fed and looked after during recovery. I took in something like 30 pigeons this year with pox, and the ones with it around the eyes and feet all recovered. I only lost a couple, and these had internal pox that got into organs like the lungs. I don't know why some get it internal, and some external, but most by far only get the external version and heal up nicely.

I didn't put anything on the pox blisters, I basically just kept the birds well cared for and stress free for 3 months, then I soft released them. I still know these birds in the wild and they are beautiful and healthy now.

I personally found pox very contagious, but when it went through my own pet pigeons, it was very mild and short lived. I would keep an eye on your pigeons and if possible, separate them from your sick pigeon...the pox can spread from biting insects like mosquitoes & pigeon flies.

Hope that helps! you're doing a great job under a lot of stress...well done!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good Lord! The poor thing. What else? Dima, if he has pox, I would remove him from the bird room. Even if he is in a cage. And use really good hand cleaning and all when you do handle him. Pox is very contagious. Wouldn't use tea tree oil. It is going to have to run its course.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Good Lord! The poor thing. What else? Dima, if he has pox, I would remove him from the bird room. Even if he is in a cage. And use really good hand cleaning and all when you do handle him. Pox is very contagious. Wouldn't use tea tree oil. It is going to have to run its course.


Jay, i am running out of space for her. I wouldn't keep her in the laundry room for 1-3 months. I would really suffer along with her. I could move her in my room where Butterfly only nests on eggs. I really hope i am not taking a big risk. Now i cannot even let her free in my room in the weekends so she can sit on the windowledge?
Why is this happening? I picked up grapes to make wine and i didn't get the chance to make it ( i threw the grapes in the garbage); i noticed small flys on the grapes after 1 week. Could they be the carrier? The fly sat on Pij's back where has no feathers and transmitted the disease? These flys also go on poop and then the poop goes on my pigeons' feet and they can get pox this way? I clean the floor eveyday, not just scape, but wet and dry it after.

Poor Pij..just when i was about to let him get out of cage.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dima, fruit flies wouldn't have caused pox. It would have to be an insect that would bite the pigeon.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dima said:


> Jay, i am running out of space for her. I wouldn't keep her in the laundry room for 1-3 months. I would really suffer along with her. I could move her in my room where Butterfly only nests on eggs. I really hope i am not taking a big risk. Now i cannot even let her free in my room in the weekends so she can sit on the windowledge?
> Why is this happening? I picked up grapes to make wine and i didn't get the chance to make it ( i threw the grapes in the garbage); i noticed small flys on the grapes after 1 week. Could they be the carrier? The fly sat on Pij's back where has no feathers and transmitted the disease? These flys also go on poop and then the poop goes on my pigeons' feet and they can get pox this way? I clean the floor eveyday, not just scape, but wet and dry it after.
> 
> Poor Pij..just when i was about to let him get out of cage.


I think the flies were probably fruit flies and they wouldn't cause pox.
Remember, *tea tree oil is toxic to birds.*
I kept a crow, with pox, in the same room with pigeons but in a cage. I wore disposable gloves when handling him and while cleaning his cage and changing the food and water dishes and was careful to throw the gloves promptly away after cleaning his cage and feeding him. You must also be careful not to wash the dishes together. I think you will be okay with the pigeon in the same room with your other pigeons, as long as you continue to practice good hygiene. While pox is contagious, it is is not an airborne virus.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> I think the flies were probably fruit flies and they wouldn't cause pox.
> Remember, *tea tree oil is toxic to birds.*
> I kept a crow, with pox, in the same room with pigeons but in a cage. I wore disposable gloves when handling him and while cleaning his cage and changing the food and water dishes and was careful to throw the gloves promptly away after cleaning his cage and feeding him. You must also be careful not to wash the dishes together. I think you will be okay with the pigeon in the same room with your other pigeons, as long as you continue to practice good hygiene. While pox is contagious, it is is not an airborne virus.


Thanks Jay, Charis, Bella..what a relief; not fruit flys

Good hygiene...my hands skin is already cracking since i discovered the lump; i wash with soap 5 times like the doctors from elbow down and between my fingers ( which are the pacifier for my pigeon Bebe ). I guess, let him free in my room so she can watch outside the window is out of question? Just being in a cage must be stressfull. She was getting along well with Bebe..they were eating from the same bowel at the window ledge

Tea tree oil idea i took it from PT link for natural healing. I applied this yesterday with a swab and this morning. The lump/pox on her toe is itchy; i saw her pecking at it. I will let it run its course without applying tea tree oil. I hope the one coming out around the eye will not grow.

I don't like gloves..when i apply antibiotic on her skin to heal, i want to have the feeling in my fingers to know that ointement went in all skin cracks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The pox virus is highly resistant to drying and may survive months to years in the dried scabs. Indirect transmission can also occur via inhalation of pox virus infected dander, feather debris and air-borne particles.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html
__________________________________________________________________________


direct contact with surfaces or air-borne particles contaminated with poxvirus can result in infections when the virus enters through abraded skin or though mucous membranes

Avian pox virus can survive considerable dryness; therefore, dust particles containing the virus can remain infective for extended periods.
http://www.unbc.ca/nlui/wildlife_diseases_bc/avian_pox.htm
_________________________________________________________________________-
exposure to air-borne particles contaminated with
poxvirus can also result in infections when virus enters the
body through abraded skin or the conjunctiva or the mucous
membrane lining that covers the front part of the eyeball and
inner surfaces of the eyelids of the eye.
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_19.pdf
.................and the virus can be present in dust, that when inhaled, can infect the bird.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Aa...wAQ#v=onepage&q=pigeon pox how spread&f=false


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> The pox virus is highly resistant to drying and may survive months to years in the dried scabs. Indirect transmission can also occur via inhalation of pox virus infected dander, feather debris and air-borne particles.
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html
> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
> ...



These links are good. I have been reading yesterday and found not this info.
Now i am back to anxiety operandum mode lol


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I need your advise on my Pij.
I noticed lower side of the abdomen very swollen/vent area. It's not hard, but feels like a balloon with water; 
He poops more loose now. He is on Mertonidazole since i noticed the Pox last Friday.
Could this be Wet Pox? I don't know what's the symptoms of wet pox and would really want to know so i can rule it out.
What can it be? Doesn't look or feel normal.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

So is the area between the legs swollen...right above the vent? Or is it only the area in the picture? Does the yellow area itself feel hard?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> So is the area between the legs swollen...right above the vent? Or is it only the area in the picture? Does the yellow area itself feel hard?


The yellow area is fine..He is healed almost.
Here's the area swollen, not hard..poops watery and alot


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Are you sure he is a he and not hen?It sounds more like a reproductive issue and will need to be drained by a veterinarian. Do you have antibiotic? Like those salmonella tabs? or baytril?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> Are you sure he is a he and not hen?It sounds more like a reproductive issue and will need to be drained by a veterinarian. Do you have antibiotic? Like those salmonella tabs? or baytril?


Sorry, it's a she , because she dances for me when i coo to her and bow ( in my native language pigeon is a "he").
I have Enroflox liquid.
What's her problem? I think she was like that from the begining, but i didn't notice. She always had a weird way of standing up.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think she has eggs that have backed up possibly because of lack of calcium and poor nutrition before you rescued her. She does need to be drained. I have one hen from which we have removed 70 ccs. If the liquid causes breathing problems as the fluid puts pressure on the other organs and the air sacs.It also makes it difficult to fly.
How much does she weigh so you can get her on the enroflox?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> I think she has eggs that have backed up possibly because of lack of calcium and poor nutrition before you rescued her. She does need to be drained. I have one hen from which we have removed 70 ccs. If the liquid causes breathing problems as the fluid puts pressure on the other organs and the air sacs.It also makes it difficult to fly.
> How much does she weigh so you can get her on the enroflox?


She is small, smaller than my smallest roller. I would say, if 350 a regular size pigeon, she would be 250g or less. Can she be overdosed? For reproductive problems isn't Triple Sulfa better? I have this one too, since Indiana was egg bounded.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

No...I would use the baytril. Give her 0.05 cc[1/20th of a cc], 1 time a day for 10 days. That would be 2 drops if you don't have a cc or ml syringe.
Do you have a vet that can drain the abdomen?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> No...I would use the baytril. Give her 0.05 cc[1/20th of a cc], 1 time a day for 10 days. That would be 2 drops if you don't have a cc or ml syringe.
> Do you have a vet that can drain the abdomen?


Ok i will give her 0.05 ( 1cc syringe between 0. and line 1 ( 0.1))
Should i give her Metro and Enroflox in the same time ( ican i give both in the night time).How long she will be on Baytril ...14 days?
I hope Baytril will work. I am tight with money and have no time, We'll see if she is getting better. All vets ask for visit $100 ( incl tax), if i had one which would only charge me to drain, i would do it.
Her poops look bad since 2 days ago. Why now. She had good poops before (Metro can give the side effects)?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes...that's right with the instructions.
The liquid won't go away on it's own. It will only grow.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow, Dima -- this poor bird! You must be out of your mind with worry for all the problems!

Charis -- what are the symptoms of the abdominal fluid/egg problem? How do you differentiate this from something like coccidiosis? Also, what are the early warning signs of it happening?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I know that egg binding can cause big, very runny poops --- I had that happen with a hen right before she ended up with a prolapse (yikes!) So the change in droppings may be due to the abdominal swelling.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> Yes...that's right with the instructions.
> The liquid won't go away on it's own. It will only grow.


That means that even if i take her at the vet, it will still get filled with fluid. Lord, that means going to the vet periodically.
Pij cannot ever be released anymore , if that's the case.
I read that is could be liver problem, ascites, peritonitis....

I hope she gets better..May be a miracle.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Wow, Dima -- this poor bird! You must be out of your mind with worry for all the problems!
> 
> Charis -- what are the symptoms of the abdominal fluid/egg problem? How do you differentiate this from something like coccidiosis? Also, what are the early warning signs of it happening?


I hope is coccida for the sake of Pij's life.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Really severe intestinal infections can cause swelling of the abdomen and vent -- and this poor bird's system has been under tremendous stress, so it seems possible that something like coccidiosis could have gotten severe enough to cause the problem...

But this does sound like it could very well be reproductive.. and it sounds like Charis has a lot of experience with this in her birds. 

I hope Charis chimes in with some more diagnostic information here -- this seems like something we should all be watching out for....


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Really severe intestinal infections can cause swelling of the abdomen and vent -- and this poor bird's system has been under tremendous stress, so it seems possible that something like coccidiosis could have gotten severe enough to cause the problem...
> 
> But this does sound like it could very well be reproductive.. and it sounds like Charis has a lot of experience with this in her birds.
> 
> I hope Charis chimes in with some more diagnostic information here -- this seems like something we should all be watching out for....


We both got burnt with soft egg shell, egg bound. But if this pigeon has not laid eggs nor it will since there's no male, is it still possible to have reproductive problem.
As i said, i hope it's not fluid ( that has to be drained every few months- that will be costly, unless i learn to do it ). 

I know Charis is right, but for the first time i wished she was wrong 

She is also with Pox. Growing new lump around right eye, and one on each side of her beak. That will be horrible, because she won't be able to eat. I hope they don't grow.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I hope it isn't fluid, too. It certainly sounds like it could be  I have seen a coccidiosis and paratyphoid combination so bad that it caused the whole abdomen and vent to become inflamed, though (in a male rescue bird) and that did resolve with treatment. 

Have you ever tried the product "pox dry?" I've never had a case of pox, thankfully, but I know a few rehabbers swear by Pox Dry. (Most of the pigeon houses sell it) It doesn't cure the virus, but it does dry up the lesions and helps the bird to feel better. Poor bird .. she's really having a rough time of it!

My little hen with the soft shells is doing better all the time ... she isn't laying, since I put her in a cage by herself, and she's returning to her normal self, slowly. She had a respiratory issue that didn't resolve with the Baytril that I gave her after the egg rupture, so I have her on metronidazole now-- I'm thinking it's canker. 

She's definitely feeling a lot better, though -- perky and vocal again, and putting on weight. She's still scratching at her beak a bit, though, and sneezing ... but the rattle and clicking have cleared up.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pij trew up three times in 3 hours.She trew up once in the cage and now she's in my bedroom, she's by the window and trew 2 times.
What's the reason? Metro & Enroflox and adminstered in the same time at night.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Metro can sometimes cause vomiting -- and perhaps in combination with the enroflox, it was enough to cause nausea. 

It could be from the abdominal fluid too -- 

I know a lot of people give a drop of pepto bismol to prevent vomiting -- given before the metro it seems to work (I've never done this, just read about it.)


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Metro can sometimes cause vomiting -- and perhaps in combination with the enroflox, it was enough to cause nausea.
> 
> It could be from the abdominal fluid too --
> 
> I know a lot of people give a drop of pepto bismol to prevent vomiting -- given before the metro it seems to work (I've never done this, just read about it.)


Yesterday was the 7th day of being on Metro. I should stop it. It's not like she has noticible Canker, it was just precautionary. But i know Metro it should not make her puke.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dima...More likely the vomiting is caused by the build up of fluid. As it expands, it presses on all the organs and air sacs and there just isn't room for a crop with food. The other thing to look out for is open beak breathing and reluctance or the inability to fly.
If you notice the vomiting shortly after you give her the metronidazole,then that is playing a part in it too. I do agree with you though, that it would be okay to discontinue the metronidazole.
The pepto bismo trick does work.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dima, Metronidazole can cause vomiting. I give them at opposite times of the day.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pij is not taking Metro since last Saturday.
She is only on Enroflox and still vomiting.
I handfeed her this morning 20 defrosted peas and I gave Pepto. She trew up 4; i came from work all the rest of peas she vomited ( i counted) were on the cage floor. She is very skinny.She was already skinny.
The swollen lower abdomen is still the same, not bigger or smaller.

Should i make a paste of defrosted peas and grind some seeds and feed her via syringe?

What should i give her to stay in her stomac?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You need to have her abdomen drained. That should stop the vomiting and make her more comfortable because at this point...she isn't comfortable.
It's a difficult thing to tell you but most often, hen's with this condition, need to be on hormone shots to stop the egg laying. That in turn stops the fluid from building up. The cause likely related to reproduction issues. The root of it all can be a tumor which often is cancer.
I've been through this many times, with both chicken and pigeon hens.

Who knows...maybe the vet will have some magic. I hope so.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I need to keep her alive untill she goes the to vet. My question is how to stop her from vomiting. Do i stop Baytril? Should i feed her via syringe, rather than peas. And from what you tell me this is an ongoing disease which is costly. Already talked to a vet close to where i work ( co-worker will drive me there) $111+tax (13%) just because is a pigeons ( big size bird cost for examination). And that will not be all. I don't want to even think about the rest of tests. If it's the fluid, then i will ask the vet to teach me.

She really went down the hill with Metro and bYTRIL. It was all fine before. I think that's why she is vomiting now.

One question: she is not laying any egg. Is this fluid building up even without laying eggs?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Then stop the baytril.
What I'm trying to tell you, is if the fluid had built up in her abdomen they way I'm thinking it has...the fluid is causing her organs to be pushed out of place, causing pressure on her crop. The pressure on her crop is causing the vomiting.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis really seems to know what she's talking about with this; it sounds like your pigeon needs a vet since she's going downhill so fast. 

The only other possibility I can think of is a very bad worm infestation; they have been known to cause abdominal bloating but I have not seen it myself. However I have seen vomiting and the bad droppings with worm infestations like what you showed earlier.

I wonder what Charis thinks, would you treat for worms as a precaution, and have you ever seen bloating with round worm infestation?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

She doesn't have those droppings anymore. She hardly has 3- 5 poop a day. Very dark green and white on the edges. Looks like algaes and feels like algaes at the texture and it stains badly. 
This must be sign of starvation and this is my first concern now.
Good sign..she is not lethargic..she reacts when i coo to her and when i want to touck her she slaps me. I am going to weight her ( bought a kitchen scale - i will wrapp her in a towel and weight her). I think that metro 40 mg messed up with her and may be even Baytril 0.05 is still too much.

She was eating way too much. The last pic on pg 3 are the last poops i have seen as being many ( that's in 24 hr) afterwards once on both medication, just suddenly stopped eating and started to throw up.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I've never seen a fluid filled abdomen from worms. Personally...I would not treat her for worms at this point especially since it sounds like she is having starvation poops.

Again...if it is what I think...the fluid is pressing on her internal organs, moving them out of place and causing pressure on her crop which makes her throw up. The baytril may be making her not feel like eating but I don't think it's making her throw up.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Whatever it is there is some pressure inside her.

I just tried to drip her beak in water and when she drank, she streched her neck with beak upwards; didn't swallow as pigeons do with head down.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes, thats a really good point. If a worm infestation was bad enough to cause vomiting, it would be difficult for the bird to survive the worming meds.

PS. Are dark green poops starvation poops? I've seen lime green and yellow , but not dark green with starvation? Like with some of the racing pigeons I took in who had raced and not eaten in days- the droppings were frothy yellow.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes...dark green tar like poop is a sign of starvation.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

For the image records:

This is the poop today the only in 6 hr.(the one in the back)









This is the day she started to vomit; the greenish liquid also from her stomac ( it stains just as the poop)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Looks like starvation droppings.I feel so bad for her.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Definitely looks like starvation to me, too -- and also bile in the crop, judging from the green vomit. The fluid accumulation must be pretty severe.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Charis, you're the expert on this condition -- should Dima syringe feed? My gut feeling would be yes -- probably very small amounts of food at a time, which perhaps the bird can keep down -- maybe something like nutrical added to formula?

I've never had to deal with this condition before (thankfully!) , so am trying to learn all I can about it. 

This poor bird!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

minimonkey said:


> Charis, you're the expert on this condition -- should Dima syringe feed? My gut feeling would be yes -- probably very small amounts of food at a time, which perhaps the bird can keep down -- maybe something like nutrical added to formula?
> 
> I've never had to deal with this condition before (thankfully!) , so am trying to learn all I can about it.
> 
> This poor bird!



She can try to syringe feed but I think the problem is that there isn't any room for the food to go.
Dima.... a little nutrical will go a long way.... all that is needed is a pea sized amount, for extra calories, one time a day mixed with formula. I am not implying to feed her once a day but to give the nutrical once a day.

Perhaps we can raise the money for you to take her to the vet to be examined. If we all pitch in a little, it won't be a hardship to anyone person. 
If anyone cares to donate, private message me. You can pay pal me the money or mail it and I can call the vet Dima goes to and put the exam on my cc.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I pm'ed Charis -- I can help chip in a bit on this. 

Charis --I hear what you're saying about there not being any room for the food to go -- it seems with syringe feeding that it might be possible to get more calories in with less volume overall ... I mean tiny amounts of food, frequently.... does this sound like a good idea?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

minimonkey said:


> I pm'ed Charis -- I can help chip in a bit on this.
> 
> Charis --I hear what you're saying about there not being any room for the food to go -- it seems with syringe feeding that it might be possible to get more calories in with less volume overall ... I mean tiny amounts of food, frequently.... does this sound like a good idea?


Any amount of food that will actually go through is good.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pij's Pox is going away slowly. Suddenly the pox from her right eye dissapeared in one day. I don't know how it's possible when it never dried up. The one from the toe is drying up and getting darker.









It's funny how rescued feral pigeons like or recognize their own kind. My rescue, BigBoy with broken wing is the only wild pigeons who noticed Pij and likes her. The other males never cared.(Pij spends time in the laundry box only from 6 pm to 9pm, the rest of the time is in a bedroom free to fly)
Video:
http://s1257.beta.photobucket.com/user/Margareta11/media/ShoppingbagandBubblebird-1.mp4.html


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pij's lower abdomen is still swollen but she is eating well and pooping very good.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dima said:


> Pij's Pox is going away slowly. Suddenly the pox from her right eye dissapeared in one day. I don't know how it's possible when it never dried up. The one from the toe is drying up and getting darker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that's just a coincidence. Fancy birds and ferals do pair up.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That abdominal swelling looks pretty bad, Dima -- it looks like it might be a prolapse. That can be really serious.

Have you made an appointment with the vet yet? Charis and I are both willing to chip in towards the vet bill...

Glad it is eating and pooping well, though, and the pox definitely looks much better!


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pij was at the vet on Nov 10th.

I spent with vet 1 hr. Very good doctor. I would recommend him to anyone, Dr. Zaharchuck ( i call him Dr Sugar) Very passionate about his work. Not any vet would spend so much time; not only inspection but also discussing about medication and pigeon health matters.

To make the story short: he kept touching her, feeling her, pulling gently. He was feeling something and he was losing the grip, as if that stuff was pulling back. Wasn't liquid, but he used syringe and neddle. Came out nothing and he pulled more a bit blood came. He couldn't figure out what it is; but he had only one logical hunch. Because what he felt was something like stings ( when i asked how it feels he said imagine pasta boiled, currled, stringy, slippery) those fatty tissues could have been that the bird consumed all the fat of its body at one point. Remember that Pij was one step away from death when i was medicating her with Metro & Bayril. He said that most likely if it was to gain the normal weight ( Pij has 252g) it would not show swollen or feel swollen. He also ruled out cancer.

He said that i should not have given any medicine as long as she was eating well and pooping." If it ain't broken why fix it"-his words. I started her on meds when i noticed the Pox. Only the ointment would have been good enough to prevent infection. 

He got 2 samples of the dropings. Results came WORMS: Emimeria Sp.Oocysts, which is Coccida right? She is on med 0.03 ml of Sulfa/Trim 2 x a day for 5 days.

I had a great time at the vet, great team. Ania (part of the doctor' s team) is following up with how Pij is feeling. She is a real animal lover and an animal activist in her past.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Dima,

Thanks for the update! 

I'm glad that you were able to determine that Coccidia caused the green enteritis from page 3. To me , those droppings looked like those I've seen caused by coccidia. But these kinds of droppings can be caused by canker and Salmonella as well. So this is where I disagree with your Vet- he said `if it aint broke don't fix it', but those droppings clearly indicated an illness that needed to be treated. To be fair, the Vet probably didn't see those images of the droppings that you posted here, so he was going on only the information he saw.

Not sure if you've treated the coccidia yet- it needs amprolium or a Sulfa antibiotic.

I wonder if the coccidia can cause the abdominal bloating?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Coccidiosis can indeed cause that kind of swelling -- that's exactly why I was wondering how you differentiate abdominal fluid accumulation from coccidiosis. Those droppings looked like the ones I've seen with coccidiosis, too. 

Looks like Pij is on Trim/Sulfa for 5 days for the cocci.

I'm not clear on the diagnosis ... Dima, you said

"Results came WORMS: Emimeria Sp.Oocysts"

Were there also worms in addition to the coccidiosis? The oocysts are referring to the coccidiosis, but they aren't worms--- they are parasites, but microscopic ones. 

What your vet described feeling actually does sound like it could be a worm infestation -- if worms are present, is that being treated too?

I'm very glad to hear the vet ruled out fluid accumulation -- that is great news. 

I personally think your decision to treat with Metro and Baytril was a wise one -- this bird had been attacked by a predator, and the risk of infection was very real.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree Minimonkey..I'm also wondering if the pigeon has worms and coccidia, or did Dima mean `parasites' when she said `worms'?.

Also, another thought that occurred to me is the pigeon originally could have had a co-infection that would not have been picked up in the tests- the Baytril and metro would have already treated bacterial infection and canker prior to testing, and so these illnesses would not have showed up in tests, had they been part of the original problem.

I believe Sulfa/trim needs to be given for ten days to clear up coccidia, at least thats what it says on my bottle of Sulfa-3.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

It wa snot told that is Coccidia..I was told that she has Emimeria Sp.Oocysts . So i googled and found this which to me is Cocidia. Right? 

http://parasite.org.au/para-site/text/eimeria-text.html

Yes, i was concered that she is only 5 days on Sulfa/Trim. I e-mailed Ania what will be next. After 7 days from medication i should bring poop for testing.

While i was with the vet at the examination i asked if the swelling could be from worms..but he ruled out; he said the swelling from worms would not be only in the lower abdomen.

I can give her 10 days, but i will ask the vet first.
Is Sulfa 3 same as Sulfa/Trim?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was thinking that too, Bella, about the co-infections. It's very possible that the medication already cleared up canker and other infections, and only the coccidiosis is left to culture. 

Yes, Dima, you're right that the Emimeria diagnosis is Coccidiosis. Did the vet test for worms, or just rule them out based on the pattern of swelling? 

Sulfa/Trim is a combination of trimethoprim and sulfa. Sulfa 3 is a mixture of 3 different kinds of sulfa. 

They aren't the same drug, but they are fairly similar, and often prescribed for the same things. 

I also feel a bit concerned that 5 days treatment may not be enough in this case....


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> I was thinking that too, Bella, about the co-infections. It's very possible that the medication already cleared up canker and other infections, and only the coccidiosis is left to culture.
> 
> Yes, Dima, you're right that the Emimeria diagnosis is Coccidiosis. Did the vet test for worms, or just rule them out based on the pattern of swelling?
> 
> ...



The vet ruled out the swelling in that part (only that particular part - lower abdomen) as being a consequence of worms. If swelling because of worms was existing he said it should have been further up also/or only futher up towards the chest /higher abdomen - i don't recall exactly) He didn't say it doesn't have worms; that what the poop test was for. I wonder if when the check the poop they check anything, not just worms, as a general tule. Right? Otherwise it should have mentioned other infections through poop test.

The mistery with the swelling is not solved. Except that it could be that if she gets fat it won't show ( that's what he said).

I asked if an x-ray would be good to diagnose the swelling. He said it's too expensive and that it will not show anything in regards to this matter ( i don't know if enteritis- you mentioned- shows on x-ray). I wonder what kind of test is needed to find out about the swelling. Does anyone knows? Blood test?

Regarding the 5 days treatment. Is it possible that the test showed how much coccidia there is and that if it's not too much ( i don't know if can be measured /counted) this could be the reason why she is on 5 days treat. and not longer?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The usual time to treat for coccidia is 5 days. Sometimes 6. If you like, you can just call the vet and see what he thinks.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> The usual time to treat for coccidia is 5 days. Sometimes 6. If you like, you can just call the vet and see what he thinks.


From what i noticed Vet is very particular with meds. So i think he is wachful for any side effects, like yeast infection...


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dima said:


> I wonder if when the check the poop they check anything, not just worms, as a general tule. Right? Otherwise it should have mentioned other infections through poop test.


Hi Dima, yes the test should show other infections, but not if the pigeon has already taken medicine for those infections, like yours did. So what the test did not show is whether the pigeon had canker and bacterial infection before you gave the medicine. So there is no way to say that the bird didn't need meds- its very possible it did, and you saved its life by giving them.

Normally, if you have enough money you would have the Vet test the droppings and crop before you start medicine. Or you can wait 2 weeks after the medicine has stopped. If you go to the vet when the bird is already on antibiotics, then they cannot test properly.

I hope that makes sense?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was thinking the same thing as Bella, about the testing and the medication. Also, we don't necessarily know what kind of test was run....perhaps it was just a parasite screening. 

Jay's point is a good one -- 5 days is considered standard treatment for coccidiosis, and then an additional 5 days after a break if it hasn't cleared up completely. Since you are getting the droppings re-tested, it makes sense to do the 5 days and then re-test. 

Also, yes, the tests can determine levels of coccida in the droppings, so the vet can tell to some degree how bad the infection is. 

'Enteritis' is just a fancy way of saying inflammation in the small intestine ... and I think it is correct that it wouldn't show on an xray. An xray would show broken portions of egg, if those are the problem, but I think most everything else wouldn't show up on it. I'm pretty sure xrays only show bone and other hard objects, like egg shell, some kinds of cartilage, etc. 

Coccidiosis can cause some pretty bad intestinal swelling -- I have seen swelling that bad before from coccidiosis and a bacterial infection combined. It's possible that is the main cause of the swelling.

A blood test could actually tell you a lot in terms of what type of infections might be present in the bird -- but that might not even be necessary.

Hopefully the sulfa will be enough to solve the problem.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Regarding the recommendation of 10 days for treatment for coccidia with Sulfa meds like Sulfa/trim, I just wanted to explain there is a good reason for this. 

Sulfa meds do not kill Coccidia parasites, like amprolium does. The Sulfas only prevent the coccidia parasites from breeding. So what is happening during treatment is some of the existing parasites are dying off (due to the end of their life cycle, not because of the medicine), therefore lightening the burden. And the remaining coccidia parasites are not able to reproduce during treatment, which also contributes to lightening the overall parasite burdeon hopefully to the point where they no longer cause illness. 

A lot depends on where the coccidia parasites are at in their lifecycle at the commencement of treatment. Coccidia parasites have life cycle of 30 days approximately, so if most of the the parasites are within 5 days of dying, then a five day treatment would be enough . But if you have parasites ranging from 1 day old to 30 days old, then the optimum treatment is 10 day treatment to allow for die off , ten days off, then another ten days on treatment to prevent the immature parasites that have grown to maturity from breeding whilst they die off.

Its sort of like worming, where you have to get the second round of parasites when they reach maturity, to properly eradicate them. However pigeons can tolerate certain levels of coccidia, hence most people wouldn't think to treat using the ten days on-ten days off-ten days on again method, when there is no longer signs of illness.

I personally use amprolium for coccidia treatment because it kills the parasites and you see dramatic results on the first day of treatment. I believe Baycox is also good, but I've never used it. In very ill pigeons with coccidia, it takes me about 4 days to see improvement using Sulfa meds.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for explaining that, Bella -- that really makes a lot of sense, thinking of it in terms of the replication cycle. I really appreciate the information.

I knew Sulfa only prevented replication rather than being something that could kill the pathogen entirely. Sulfa drugs, even the safest ones, are also somewhat toxic, so length of treatment is a concern on both ends of the spectrum. 

I didn't realize that amprolium could actually kill coccidiosis -- I did know it tends to be safer than the sulfa drugs, in general. I've heard good reviews of Baycox. I think next time I get meds, I will get some amprolium, and switch over to using that. 

I was taught to do the 10 day treatment with sulfa for cocci, and I've always done that with good results, but I don't actually encounter cocci all that often.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Minimonkey!

Amprolium has been really wonderful to use. The only caution is it doesn't mix well with other meds and can cause regurgitation if you give it with other daily meds . But if given alone, it is not only a fast acting cure for coccidia, but a good diagnostic tool as well, because of its fast action. 

On the other hand, You can mess around with Sulfa meds for a week waiting for results, meanwhile you can't be sure if you're treating coccidia or something like Salmonella or sepsis. Some birds don't have that kind of time for trial and error. Anyway my success rate for sick pigeons has been much better since I switched to Amprolium, I think mostly because I can get birds on the right meds quicker.

Minimonkey, may i ask, do you live in a wet/humid climate, or is it more dry? I read that coccidia thrives in wetter climates, like mine. Does that fit with your experiences?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The climate here is fairly dry in the summer, but can get pretty wet for a few months in the fall and winter -- overall, the humidity is much lower than a lot of places, though. When it does get wet, it's usually cold and foggy. We don't get much warm humidity at all. 

I'm definitely game to switch to amprolium -- that sounds like a very good thing to do. I've never been fond of using the sulfa meds -- I keep them on hand for the occasional bout with coccidiosis, but I would definitely like to find a better alternative. 

I need to order a few meds anyhow, so I think I will just go ahead and get the amprolium.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Bella,

Let me know if i am right.
Sulfas stop the parasites from breeding.
Amprolium kills the parasites.

So what is the purpose of sulfa for Pij? If she lives in a clean envrionment then she won't pick up the eggs/oocysts from the poop. Or the eggs are also forming and mature in the intestine also and that would cut the number new parasites .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thats a good question, Dima. Yes, sanitation can stop the cycle too.

The eggs do need to come out of the host in order to become infectious, it doesn't happen inside the bird. Once outside (in the droppings) the eggs (or spores) morph into their infectious form within 16 hours. Once they are in that form they are virtually indestructible for about a year, and wait to be swallowed by a host. But if you remove droppings perfectly once a day, you could prevent re-infection, I think.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella, you are the coccidiosis goddess! (Heck of a title, I know, LOL!) Seriously, though, thank you for all this information.

What's the most effective disinfectant for a loft with coccidiosis, do you think?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Minimonkey, you're so sweet

I haven't been able to find a lot of scientific information about disinfecting oocysts (coccidia `eggs'). Various research I did last year suggested that acetic acid (normal white vinegar) makes the eggs `non viable' . So I've been spraying acetic acid around the loft every day, for coccidia and also bacteria. I don't know if its working.

Something interesting about oocysts is they are not infectious in fresh droppings. So the fresh poo isn't a worry, its the 2 day and older stuff, thats been sitting around in warm temps. Stuff around nest boxes, I suppose. The oocysts turn into their infectious form under those conditions, and the birds get coccidia from ingesting them in water, food, or pecking the old excrement.

What I find most tricky about managing cocci in my pets, is pigeons do develop a good tolerance if they are exposed to infectious oocysts, especially when they are young. So perfect disinfection isn't the answer either. It seems that a good immune system & a small level of exposure to a variety of illness is a birds best defence huh?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks Bella. I got a 90% idea of the cycle.

But i am left with one inquiry.

The mature parasites left in the intestines ( which Sulfa doesn't kill) are unisex or need a " mate " to breed. Sulfa stops them from breeding, but the young parasites will grow , mature and reproduce after 5 days of meds.

Thanks again.

PS Pij is a young pigeon. So that means that she will become immune to coccidia. If she ever gets it again she will not act or have dropping that cociddia gives. That means that she will carry the parasite and if she is put together with my birds, then my pigeons who are mature can get infected from her dropings.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dima, most pigeons do carry some of the parasite. Normally, they exist with it and are fine. It's usually when they are stressed by something else that it flares up like that. Even your other birds carry this. It usually affects young birds who are still trying to build an immunity. Cocci meds are one of the meds that are useful to keep on hand, like meds for canker and worms.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dima said:


> But i am left with one inquiry.
> 
> The mature parasites left in the intestines ( which Sulfa doesn't kill) are unisex or need a " mate " to breed. Sulfa stops them from breeding, but the young parasites will grow , mature and reproduce after 5 days of meds.


Yes, thats the problem with Sulfa meds, and why the longer treatments are advised. But a short treatment of Sulfa meds can also work, though randomly. For example, when there are not many immature parasites in the body at the time of treatment. 

You can just use Amprolium, when you are sure you have coccidia. I use Sulfa meds a lot, but its because I can't afford to test every bird. The SUlfa meds can help with coccidia, but they also treat bacterial infection. Its a good treatment when a bird is sick and you want to treat the largest number of possible illnesses safely.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just a word of caution when using Sulfa drugs. Never use Sulfa drugs for longer than the suggested period of time. Never use two Sulfa drugs at the same time. Always use the proper dose for the drug being used. Always allow three weeks between the use of different Sulfa drugs, never use them back to back. The overuse of Sulfa drugs can and will if not properly used cause permanent and irreversible KIDNEY DAMAGE and RENAL SHUTDOWN (kidney failure). Use Sulfa drugs with confidence but with a sense of caution. It will be of value to use some 3-Nitro-W in with the Corid/Amprol powder when treating for Cocci. There is a synergistic effect when the two are used together. Synergistic just means that the ability of the Corid/Amprol powder to fight Coccidiosis will improved if the two are used together.

http://www.thecozynest.com/understanding_coccidiosis.htm


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank you, Jay! Sulfa drugs scare me for this very reason -- I rarely use them.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi mini, Do you have any links to (reasonably scientific) information to support the dangers of Sulfa meds? I'd be interested to see what they are exactly, as I have been using a 3 in 1 combo (Sulfa- 3) for years. I've saved a lot of birds with Sulfa-3, and have never seen any adverse reactions. But if there are dangers I'd really like to know about them.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think the most problematic of the sulfas is sulfaquinoxaline, but other sulfa drugs have been linked to hemorrhage and also to kidney and renal faliure in certain cases. 

You can only get the first page of this one in a preview:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101352625443

Not sure how scientific this one is, but it is from an avian medicine textbook:

http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/avmed/ampa/37.pdf

pg 1045, right side, near the bottom

Also, from the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (this is specifically regarding human usage)

"Certain medications are potentially toxic to the kidney—for example, antibiotics such as sulfa drugs, chemotherapeutic drugs, radiocontrast material, and illegal drugs (eg, heroin)"

I think, used as directed, they are reasonably safe, but they are definitely not as safe as some other medications.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Again, not sure how much (if at all) this counts as scientific, but

http://www.shagbarkbantams.com/page2.htm

"Again, the use of sulfonamides for the treatment of coccidiosis is highly discouraged. Especially with the availability of amprolium, which is safe. An effective dose of a sulfonamide is toxic to poultry, and can have a negative effect on the immune system. Hemorrhagic syndrome and organ damage can occur as a result of sulfa poisoning, particularly in the liver and kidneys. I discourage the use of sulfonamides for all poultry, including waterfowl, unless amprolium is unavailable. In this case, use a 'safer' sulfa such as sulfadimethoxine or sulfamethazine. Avoid Sulfaquinoxaline (SQ)."

I've seen a number of references to Amprolium being a safer choice all around.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I kind of suspect the main problem with most of these drugs comes from misuse/overuse of them, careless dosing, or the occasional use on an already compromised bird. 

I'm jumpy about sulfas because my (human) doctor prefers not to use them because of their liver toxicity.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Mini,

I agree its unclear if this is `dumbed down' information for people the author perceives as prone to misusing medicines, or based on normal dosing. The authors do not say what dose is toxic.

I guess its something to watch out for. Perhaps the safety margin isn't so crash hot or something, and what's being described is the result of overdose (which causes toxic effects with many medicines). 


Regarding the use of Sulfas on very sick , immune compromised birds, thats almost exclusively what I use Sulfa-3 for. You'd think if the correct dose was so toxic to the liver and kidneys, then these dying birds would be pushed over the edge if you introduce Sulfa antibiotics. But I'm just not seeing that kind of result.

I'll keep my mind open about this though, and keep hunting for more information. I appreciate your help heaps!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm guessing it is due to a rather narrow safety margin, but that really is just a guess. 

I also think sulfa was used fairly recklessly in the poultry industry for a number of years, which may be part of the reason for these warnings. 

I know a lot of people do use sulfa and swear by it ... you being among them. 

Please let me know if you find any more specifics -- I'm always open to learning this stuff.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thats a really good point about the poultry Industry and the misuse of meds.

For chickens that are for food, I read that they can spend their whole life on Sulfa meds to prevent coccidia. They only take them off them for one week, just before slaughter....you can really see how people who care about chickens would want to discourage that kind of practice.

And it amazes me that you can get chicken feeds laced with tetracycline!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah -- it's an awful practice all around. In so many of the worst factory farms, antibiotics are used as a substitute for hygiene -- and it is a total prescription for disaster. No wonder we have new, more resistant strains of disease happening all the time


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

An updae in pictures of Pij skin/flesh on the back and on the chest.
She finished the Sulfa/Trim ( 5 days). We'll have a pause of 7 days and get the poop tested again. I would hate to get her back on meds. She is a fighter when i give meds.

I am so happy. I know she is feeling better, she coos and dances for me (when i coo and dance for her - i just do the native indian brid dance Lol)and when she is angry at me, she does the angry coo.

The BACK skin:









The CHEST skin/flesh...Hurray!!!!.. I am glad i listen to all and especially Charis ( who convinced me the wound will heal)


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

WOW! Great job! Pigeons are amazing.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> WOW! Great job! Pigeons are amazing.


Yes, They are amazing.
Thank you.
And thank you Pij.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

WOW Dima! You and this bird are both amazing!  I am so happy to see these pictures -- what a huge improvement. 

I'm also glad to hear that she's feeling better -- how is the abdominal swelling looking now?

I also coo and dance to my birds. No wonder everyone thinks we pigeon folks are a bit nuts


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Minimonkey, today when i got from work, the bedroom was dark, so slowly i wrapped my hands around her and touched her abdomen. Doesn't feel so loose and swollen.

But i have another big concern. As i was touching her i heard a weird sound, i turned the light on and she didn't fly..so i listen carefully colse to her. I could hear this sound like snoring. I looked at her chest. She kind of snores when her lower part of chest inflates. 
Then after 20 min i went back and i had to chase even with the light off( she knows where to land as she spends time all day in the room) and when finally i got her, she fought with me..couldn't keep her still on my lap, but i heard a few noises like whistling, more like one of those baby toys you squish and make that sound.

I did notice that every time i was giving her medicine she was puffing air out and was loud. But i thought it was her anxiety or some sort of discomfort in the abdomen. She never used to sit down, which i see her laying in her nest everytime i come from work..i see it as a good sign. She cooed at me today after i released her from my hands..the type of angry coo. 
I will keep an eye on her poop and listen to her breath again.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well that doesn't sound good, Dima! Definitely keep an eye on that. That whistling sound is common with respiratory infections.  

At least she's feeling well enough to get grumpy with you


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Well that doesn't sound good, Dima! Definitely keep an eye on that. That whistling sound is common with respiratory infections.
> 
> At least she's feeling well enough to get grumpy with you


False alarm. I grabbed her again..Listen...Nothing...Could have been some seed in her throat. The whistling didn't scare me so much( was about 2 times when she was struggling to come out of my hands, it was more like a squeaky toy, but the snoring sound was pretty weird.

Thanks for feedback. I will keep an "ear' on her.

Have you experienced molting? She lost all her feather on her right leg and she is getting less and less around the ear and under her beak , throat area.
Also my pet pigeons are not looking well with their feathers ( not all but at least 2 are vissible). They get vit and probiotics and i also pop in their mouth Ca & d3 ( especially these 2). Is that some sign of molting? As a matter of fact my pigeons never molted (only when they were about 4 months old);since they are in the house and never in contact with the weather,the 4 seasons, could be that this is the reason they do not molt and just the feathers look messy?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, yes, mine molt. For about 2 months in the fall, it looks like a feather pillow exploded in my house, no matter how much I clean. 

They can get pretty scrappy looking when they molt -- but feather loss can be caused by other things too. Make sure the feathers are falling out, rather than breaking off right at the skin ... and also make sure new feathers are starting to grow in on the bald areas.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Glad your hen is sounding better -- please do keep an 'ear' on her. The snoring sound could be congestion. If you hold her back right up to your ear, can you hear any clicking or other noises?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Is this normal molting?

She has no feathers around the neck, but what worries me is that she is left with no feathers on the legs. On the other hand it looks like she grew some feathers back on the chest and back where the wounds were.

Her pox from the toe fell down two days ago.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I've never seen a molt look like that, Dima -- I'm not sure what would be causing it. Sometimes they do get pretty bald in patches during a molt, but I've never seen it cause bald legs like this one has. Maybe someone else will know what's going on with her.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dima...how much calcium and d3 do you pop? I'm wondering if this the result of vitamin over dose.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Charis said:


> Dima...how much calcium and d3 do you pop? I'm wondering if this the result of vitamin over dose.


I was thinking to give her CA & D3 by mouth when she started to molt bad, a few days ago. 

But you may hit the nail on the head. I gave her for more than a week vitamins ( all vit) in the water after she had her meds for coccidia. ( the second poop test came negative). For the last three days she drinks plain water. But yesterday her right leg was fine, with feathers, over night, just like that, she's bare naked.

Forgot to mention..i do not like to overuse any meds or vit. But i saw her putting weight on, looking better, so i continued the vits.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Could she possibly have mites or feather lice? Feather lice can eat the feathers right down to the skin, particularly the down feathers. They like to get around the neck. Mites tend to get on the legs and vent. 

Even indoors, birds can sometimes get them. Mites are almost impossible to see, and even lice are hard to see on a dark colored bird.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I had a sick crow this year who lost his leg feathers, just like that. I wasn't able to work out what was wrong, but before he was released, he was given moxidectin which treats mites. His feathers are all back now. I don't know, crows get very stressed in captivty, so I thought stress could have been a factor, but it could have easily just been mites.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Not to threadjack, but Bella, it must be amazing caring for a crow. They are such magnificent creatures!


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I just noticed your posts girls. I gave her baths a few times. But i didn't see any mites. Are they visible with naked eye?
The funny part is that she was loosing feathers on her lower abdomen area. If you loot in previous posts you can see the vent with few feathers. While she is losing feathers around the neck and legs, she grew back all the feathers on the healed skin ( where the wounds were) from chest and back and at the vent.
It's been a few months since i have her. Why would she get mites just like that and from where?
Is any of these medications water soluble Ivermectin, moxidectin? I hate using the syringe again.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

*What I did with my cat with a similar wound from a hawk's attack*

WHEN I POSTED THIS I DID NOT REALIZED THAT THERE ARE NINE PAGES. SORRY. UNTIL I GOT WITH MY EXPERIENCE AND HEALING FROM A HAWK ATTACK, YOUR GIRL HAD ALREADY HEALD APPARENTLY. GOOD WORK. As there is no need to share my experience that could have maybe helped a little at such a late time, I take it off. Congratulations again and God smile at you for your good deed/s.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

nitamircela said:


> WHEN I POSTED THIS I DID NOT REALIZED THAT THERE ARE NINE PAGES. SORRY. UNTIL I GOT WITH MY EXPERIENCE AND HEALING FROM A HAWK ATTACK, YOUR GIRL HAD ALREADY HEALD APPARENTLY. GOOD WORK. As there is no need to share my experience that could have maybe helped a little at such a late time, I take it off. Congratulations again and God smile at you for your good deed/s.


Any experience is welcomed. I would like to know how you healed it also.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

Oh, Dima. Thank you. It was a striking discovery. The vet told me that she would not put any stiches on my cat's back as the cut by the hawk's claw was about one inch wide and about two inch long. She just gave me some antibiotics which wouldn't have been enough but for about 5 days and told me to wait to see what happens in about one month. I immediately surfed our good old Internet through the naturalistic healing pages and read that cayenne pepper makes wonders, not only being a natural antibiotic but a would healer (for example heals ulcers). I sprinkled some cayenne pepper on my cat's back (again one inch by 2 inches large cut) and the blood made a crust in two days and the cut closed in two weeks COMPLETELY, and the fur grew back with no traces that whatsoever ever happened there. Since then I use cayenne for everything. ... Including food. I have just posted my worry about a baby pigeon with a bump over his right nostril and how meantime nobody came with an idea, I spent a little bit more time with studying it. Then, upon discovery there... okay, this is already another thread (see the nostril story a little bit below).


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

nitamircela said:


> Oh, Dima. Thank you. It was a striking discovery. The vet told me that she would not put any stiches on my cat's back as the cut by the hawk's claw was about one inch wide and about two inch long. She just gave me some antibiotics which wouldn't have been enough but for about 5 days and told me to wait to see what happens in about one month. I immediately surfed our good old Internet through the naturalistic healing pages and read that cayenne pepper makes wonders, not only being a natural antibiotic but a would healer (for example heals ulcers). I sprinkled some cayenne pepper on my cat's back (again one inch by 2 inches large cut) and the blood made a crust in two days and the cut closed in two weeks COMPLETELY, and the fur grew back with no traces that whatsoever ever happened there. Since then I use cayenne for everything. ... Including food. I have just posted my worry about a baby pigeon with a bump over his right nostril and how meantime nobody came with an idea, I spent a little bit more time with studying it. Then, upon discovery there... okay, this is already another thread (see the nostril story a little bit below).


That's interesting, first time i hear it ( doesn't it burn though?). I also heard about Turmeric and from other people a special type of Honey; it prevents infection and heals the wounds.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

Nope, it does not burn. Turmeric is for cancer wounds (they say). I experimented on myself with cayenne, try once if you have (especially infected) wound and you will see. I believe the Turmeric burns (I tried to even cook it and did not like it). Also you make a paste from turmeric while cayenne you just sprinkle the powder (dries up the wound fast not keeping the moisture like the turmeric paste)


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

nitamircela said:


> Nope, it does not burn. Turmeric is for cancer wounds (they say). I experimented on myself with cayenne, try once if you have (especially infected) wound and you will see. I believe the Turmeric burns (I tried to even cook it and did not like it). Also you make a paste from turmeric while cayenne you just sprinkle the powder (dries up the wound fast not keeping the moisture like the turmeric paste)


So the idea is to dry up the wound not to get infected; after you can apply antibiotic ointment.


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