# Help!!!! What is what???



## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

Guys and Gals I need some help. I recently aquired a loft and pigeons. I'm told they are racers, tumblers and homers. I have no idea what is what and have a ton of questions

Aren't all pigeons homers to an extent?

1. How do you tell what is what? I'm guessing the really big birds are racers. I have some really small pigeons I'm guessing are something else

2. I was told to keep the birds a month before letting them out. I did and most came back but there is still 20-30 that just keep circling the house and aren't coming back. What do I do?

3. How many birds can be kept in a 6'x10' loft?

4. How many pounds of food do you feed for say 40 birds?

5. If the pigeons are on eggs do you let them out?

6. Some pigeons are setting in the nesting box but not having eggs what do I do with them? How often do they have eggs?

ahhhh so many questions......We are having a great time watching the birds but we really just need to know more about them. Thanks for the help..

Shrek


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and Welcome to pigeon Talk,

Thank you for your interest in these birds.

Is the original owner not available to answer any questions...if I may ask?

1.Aren't all pigeons homers to an extent?
Nope, there are show breeds that don't home, can you provide pictures?Tumblers and racers/homers do have the instinct to return home

2. I was told to keep the birds a month before letting them out. I did and most came back but there is still 20-30 that just keep circling the house and aren't coming back. What do I do?
Are you keeping them hungry before you release them?
3. How many birds can be kept in a 6'x10' loft?
I'm not sure, others will respond.
4. How many pounds of food do you feed for say 40 birds?
I go thru approx. 50 lbs a month of pigeon seed.
5. If the pigeons are on eggs do you let them out?
It is not a good idea if they are hatching babies, because if something happens to them what will become of the eggs/babies.
6. Some pigeons are setting in the nesting box but not having eggs what do I do with them? How often do they have eggs?
If they are a pair they will lay eggs after mating for 5 to 10 days. The eggs hatch after approx 18 days of incubation. If you don't want babies, you should replace the eggs with dummy eggs right after they are laid, otherwise you may get overcrowded.You might have some single or male birds there, you can allow them to fly.


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

Thanks for the reply. The lady I got them from moved. I should have got details but I didn't.  

Before we released them we waited until an hour before feeding time. (Feeding time is normally right before dark)

Figured the birds would fly then come in to get fed. About a 1/3 of them came back the right away and got fed. Then the rest stayed out. The second night another 1/3 returned. Now I just have the other 1/3 still cruising around the neighbor hood.

I will get some pictures. Some are really cool (To us anyways) They are small and black. Also we have some small white ones. THey have shorter beaks then all the others. And are over all smaller.

I guess I stated question 6 wrong. Since we have had these a month certain pairs haven't laid any eggs. Do I need to remove them and get another pair that may use the nesting box?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Learn everything you can about pigeons. This site is a great resource. Read...read...read. There is a lot to know.
I'm no expert in how many to a loft but for 40 pigeons you may need a bit more room. Lovebirds can answer that question for sure.
Are you only feeding the pigeons once a day? Pigeons eat morning and just before dark, at least mine do. Fresh water should always be available as should oyster shell and grit. It also would be a good idea to put together a first aid kit for your birds because you will need one sooner or later. It's best to be proactive and be prepared.
Sounds like your smaller birds are rollers.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Before we released them we waited until an hour before feeding time. (Feeding time is normally right before dark)
You might try flying them early in the morning, and see how they react. Also, if the past owners used a whistle or shaking seed can to allert the birds to come in and eat, you might want to try this. If you could I would contact the lady and see if she can help. Hopefully when they get good and hungry they will come inside. You might try picking them up at night if they are roosting on your house or other places, and bringing them back to the loft. It is easier to grab them at night. You need to get all the birds identified before releasing them.


I guess I stated question 6 wrong. Since we have had these a month certain pairs haven't laid any eggs. Do I need to remove them and get another pair that may use the nesting box?[/QUOTE]

If you want more birds then you could do that. But there is possibly a health issue if they are not laying. Do you have pigeon grit for them?


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

Yeah I'm burning a hole in my computer screen reading on here. Is there a good book that shows the different breeds and such that I can buy? I have looked at a few but they just don't have much. 

We are feeding morning and night. We feed light in the morning and heavier at night. Hoping that the birds will return quick at night after there flight to get there bellies full before they go to bed for the night. 

We have an automatic water, a bird bath, and heat lamps in the loft. There also is a heater on the water to keep the water warm. All this is set on timers and the loft is closed up at night to keep all the cold air out. THe loft is built with 2x4 and built much like a house. In fact I think its probably insulated better then most houses. Yeah they don't have a rough life by any means. We actually are planning on making another one so that we can have a our breading pairs and our others.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Shrek - welcome to the forum. I'm looking forward to reading about your pigeons.

This is a link to a website that lists a lot of pigeons. You can do a search on this site and hopefully find some of yours.

http://www.avianweb.com/pigeonspecies.htm


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Shrek said:


> Guys and Gals I need some help. I recently aquired a loft and pigeons. I'm told they are racers, tumblers and homers. I have no idea what is what and have a ton of questions
> 
> Aren't all pigeons homers to an extent?
> 
> ...



Hi Shrek, (loved the movie)
I see you've gotten answers to most of your questions.
In a 6 X 10 loft, the most you should have in there is 30 birds and I personally would say 25 would be a better number. Overcrowding is at the top of the list when it comes to making your birds sick. It also affects their homing. If the birds are crowded and must constantly fight for their space in the loft, some birds simply will leave and not come back. 
As far as feeding, a general rule is 1 oz per bird, per day. You can give that in one feeding or divide it into two feedings. Of course the weather plays a part in to how much to feed. They won't eat as much in warm weather and need a little extra in extreme cold weather. 
Can you post some pictures of the different breeds? Racers and homers are one in the same. The ones with shorter beaks are not homers I'm pretty sure. They might be a type of show bird, but homers don't have short beaks. 
Another thing you said that stuck out is "we close the loft up at night". What exactly does that mean? If you are completely closing the loft, that's not a good thing. Pigeons need plenty of ventilation at all times. The cold will not hurt them, but not having good clean air to breathe will. 
Also, the heater that you have on the water. If thats needed to keep the water from freezing, then that's ok, as long as the water is getting warm. Warm water will breed bacteria, so you need to make sure the water is tepid but not warm. 
So, welcome to PT. You'll get lots of help and answers here.


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

Love Birds thanks for the info. I love the shrek movies. In fact I have a big lab named Shrek. The waters are on heaters because its still freezing here. In fact it was 22 last night. As far as closing up the loft we close off the front were the chicken wire is. There are 8 vents around the bottom of the loft and 2 in eves to allow air to circulate.

I was ticked when I seen how many birds there were in this when I got it. There were 125 birds in a 6' x 10' x 8' loft. Luckily my parents were ready for some new pigeons so they took a pile, we also got rid of another 25 to a friend that wanted to retire some of their old birds. 

Thanks for the info does anyone have a good book I should buy?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Shrek said:


> Love Birds thanks for the info. I love the shrek movies. In fact I have a big lab named Shrek. The waters are on heaters because its still freezing here. In fact it was 22 last night. As far as closing up the loft we close off the front were the chicken wire is. There are 8 vents around the bottom of the loft and 2 in eves to allow air to circulate.
> 
> I was ticked when I seen how many birds there were in this when I got it. There were 125 birds in a 6' x 10' x 8' loft. Luckily my parents were ready for some new pigeons so they took a pile, we also got rid of another 25 to a friend that wanted to retire some of their old birds.
> 
> Thanks for the info does anyone have a good book I should buy?


If you're looking for a book with different pictures of pigeon breeds, then there's an old book by Wendell Levi called Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds.
Go here and check out their catalog and find the "books" section. Lots of choices there.
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/

My number one choice for health and diseases would be THE FLYING VET'S PIGEON HEALTH & MANAGEMENT


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

Trees Gray said:


> Before we released them we waited until an hour before feeding time. (Feeding time is normally right before dark)
> You might try flying them early in the morning, and see how they react. Also, if the past owners used a whistle or shaking seed can to allert the birds to come in and eat, you might want to try this. If you could I would contact the lady and see if she can help. Hopefully when they get good and hungry they will come inside. You might try picking them up at night if they are roosting on your house or other places, and bringing them back to the loft. It is easier to grab them at night. You need to get all the birds identified before releasing them.
> 
> 
> I guess I stated question 6 wrong. Since we have had these a month certain pairs haven't laid any eggs. Do I need to remove them and get another pair that may use the nesting box?


If you want more birds then you could do that. But there is possibly a health issue if they are not laying. Do you have pigeon grit for them? [/QUOTE]


Well as far as grit I have a gravel pile of 3/4 road mix that I get a shovel full of every night I throw it in and take the old with the droppings and stuff. Is that sufficent? I like throwing the gravel on the floor because it made for easy clean up. Just scoop and chuck.

One more question. If you have a mother that is super good and another that is horrible about staying on the eggs can you put the eggs under a good mother?

Also one of my pigeon has 4 eggs will she be able to feed 4 babies? Or should I take 2 away?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Shrek said:


> If you want more birds then you could do that. But there is possibly a health issue if they are not laying. Do you have pigeon grit for them?



Well as far as grit I have a gravel pile of 3/4 road mix that I get a shovel full of every night I throw it in and take the old with the droppings and stuff. Is that sufficent? I like throwing the gravel on the floor because it made for easy clean up. Just scoop and chuck.

One more question. If you have a mother that is super good and another that is horrible about staying on the eggs can you put the eggs under a good mother?

Also one of my pigeon has 4 eggs will she be able to feed 4 babies? Or should I take 2 away?[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm not Trees Gray, but..........the birds really need to red pigeon grit. It has calcium and other stuff in it that they need. The gravel is just rocks and isn't really what they need. You might check some of your local feed stores and see if they carry the red grit. Do you know if there are any racing clubs near you? If so, they can tell you where to get it as we all use the red grit.
The hen that has 4 eggs may actually be mated to another hen and that's why there are 4 eggs. With as many birds as you have, it's possible that two hens have laid in the same nest, but doubtful. If there aren't an even number of cocks and hens, hen will mate up. Do you know how to candle eggs? Do you know when they were laid? It's VERY hard on a pair of birds to raise 4 youngsters and most likely, one, maybe even two of the babies wouldn't survive. They just aren't equipped to raise more than two at a time.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's a thread on candling eggs.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14912

Here's one on fostering eggs. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13083


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Shrek, one thing I noticed, you said "chicken wire"? That is pretty much a no-no  even during daylight hours. Predators like cats, hawks, raccoons, etc., can easily reach through and grab a bird causing serious injury or death. The recommended wire is 1/4" hardware cloth.


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

wow I thought this was going to be easy. I candled eggs back in high school but that has been a year or two. 

Okay here is a dumb question....how do you tell the males from female? I read on another site you couldn't unless it was laying an egg.

Okay lets give shrek a 101 on pigeons.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Shrek said:


> wow I thought this was going to be easy. I candled eggs back in high school but that has been a year or two.
> 
> Okay here is a dumb question....how do you tell the males from female? I read on another site you couldn't unless it was laying an egg.
> 
> Okay lets give shrek a 101 on pigeons.


Not a dumb question..........we get that question A LOT around here. Fact of the matter is, when a pigeon lays an egg, you can be 100% certain you got a hen.  Sometimes you can tell by their actions and sometimes by their size, but nothing is 100% for sure. A big hen can act like a cock and you're sure she's a he..........then "he" lays an egg.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

If you've got high speed internet ( or lots of time) go here and click on "A Miracle" at the top of the page. Pretty cool stuff. 

http://www.albertaclassic.net/


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> If you've got high speed internet ( or lots of time) go here and click on "A Miracle" at the top of the page. Pretty cool stuff.
> 
> http://www.albertaclassic.net/


Very cool. So what is the story on the bands the racing pigeons have? Why couldn't they just have a bigger band? Man there is sooooo much to learn its almost overwelming. The wife wants to race them........I said lets learn how to raise one first.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Shrek said:


> Very cool. So what is the story on the bands the racing pigeons have? Why couldn't they just have a bigger band? Man there is sooooo much to learn its almost overwelming. The wife wants to race them........I said lets learn how to raise one first.


Gotta go cook dinner in a few. I enjoy talking to new people, so don't you go anywhere with all your questions. Others will read and learn too.
The bands are individual bands for each individual bird. No two bands are just alike. The club letters may be the same, but the numbers are different. Others will have the same numbers, but different club letters. They are put on the baby at a young age so that they can never be removed and replaced with another band. They CAN be removed by cutting them off, but it's impossible to "correctly" band a grown bird with a nother band. Not even grown, if the bird is older than 10 days old, forget it. 
Racing the pigeons is fun, but you've got to have the heart and guts to do it. There are birds that get lost, in spite of all you do for them and that's just the way it is. We had our birds for two years before we started racing them. I learned a great deal in those two years. Didn't learn it all of course and I never will, but I got the basic stuff down.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Some info for you.*

If a pair has 4 eggs, you have two hens on the same nest. Pigeons always lay two. They could actually be fertile as a hen with no mate will breed with another male. Pigeons mate for life, sort of. They will sometimes breed with other mates. An unsuccessful pair will often split up after not raising any young. You can hold a pigeon egg up to the light and see if anything is in it. You should see blood veins in a young egg or a very dark area with an air sac at the large end in an older one. They only take 18 days to hatch. A clear egg, (no veins or sign of life) after a few days incubation is infertile. It is unlikely for two birds to successfully raise more than two young at a time, although some good feeders could raise a third.

The Pigeon Encyclopedia by Levi is probably the most complete book of pigeons ever written. It is getting old and there are possibly 100 or so breeds that are not in the book. The internet probably has as much info as any book, you just have to look alittle harder.

Sexing pigeons is as much by observation as anything else and it takes time to get a knack for it. Within each breed, males and females tend to have a certain look and the males are usually ( not always) alittle larger than the females. The males normally have a larger cere (nose) than the females. Males tend to coo at all hens with much bowing, tail dragging and pushing themselves upon the females. The male tends to coo in a longer and more pronounced and drawn out way. The female can make the same sounds but tends to do them in a quicker and more subtle manner.

Females are usually not aggressive in any way but will vehemently defend their young, their nest or their roost. A female will bow but not usually with anyone besides her own mate and will only peck at other birds that bother her in any way. She can coo but will usually only do so when defending her space, nest, young, etc. Males do it often and flirt with any female unless their own mate is nearly ready to lay eggs and needs all of his attention. If you see one bird chasing another (everywhere) and pecking at its head or back of the neck, this is the male chasing his mate to her nest as he thinks it's time for her to lay her eggs. They always do this after breeding for a couple of days and it is called "driving the hen". Pigeons and doves all do this.

You will begin to see the behavior of both males and females but it does take alot of observation of each individual bird.

As for letting birds out to fly, a month may have been a bit soon. If you had good homing pigeons, the probably would have gone home to where they were raised. I tried to keep birds in until they had a mate, a nest and eggs or young. This way, you know that they will come back. This is true of most but not all breeds. I had Doneks which never seemed to learn to find their way home. With homers, I think the rule was that you could only fly the ones that you raised in your own loft as good homers always tried to find their original home.

Hope this bantering helps.

Bill


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

I made a compilation book based on beginning dove and pigeon advice from this forum. If you would like a free copy I can email it to you. I love mine! So educational it took me months to create and I'm still reading it. 
Here is the thread that tells all about the e-books. If you think they would help, just send me your email.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=25640

I know the contents is mostly about doves but pigeons ARE doves.


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

ok im weiging in lol go figure!!

homers i have never had good luck rehoming them. they always seem to want to go home.

yes get grit soon!! gravel doesent cut it. i didnt notice where you were from but if you live in a damp climate dont put too much out at once it seems to absorb moisture and it goes bad.


if you want to race then you need to be prepared i dont want to sound like i am talking you out of it but it is definatly not for the meek at heart.
35 birds in the loft is a good start but normally all of our club members are sitting on 100or so at a time 

training time is here im up a couple hours early every morning now taking birds out to release them. old birds racing starts in 2 weeks and im not racing this season because i only have 20 flyers in my old birds right now.

by young bird season i will be taking my birds 70-80 miles away 2-3 times a week and 100 plus once a week to train them.


but when you are standing by the loft any you hear the flutter of wings and look up and here they come, wings tucked and come home to your loft itis worth every minute of it!!!!! 


now i disagree on feed amounts. i figure 2oz of mix per day per bird when i go back into the loft an hour after feeding it is pretty cleaned up.

i also have turkey grower pellets and pigeon peas available to them 24/7 

and of course fresh water every day.

check on the au website and find a local club. once you join a lot of clubs have extraspace that you can ship birds to a race called trainers they are not in the race but they will ship them for cheap. my club it is under .50 a bird.

http://www.pigeon.org/

as always just my opinion!!


but let me say you made the best first step possible. you found the bestest pigeon site on the web!! welcome to pigeon talk and many happy years of flying!!


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

Okay here are some of the little buggers.







































So what do you guys think? haha What is what?


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## Shrek (Apr 2, 2008)

A few more.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't know what is what, but I do know they are gorgeous.

Reti


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Shrek said:


> A few more.


wow, they are pretty birds. I hope you will enjoy careing for you new PETS!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Very pretty birds, Shrek! Thank you for the photos!

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Looks like homers and rollers*

The larger birds with the larger ceres (noses) are homing pigeons. Be careful letting any of them fly loose as they may return to where they were born.

The smaller birds with smaller ceres look like rollers but wild pigeons also look like rollers. The photo of the black is likely to be a roller as is the mostly white grizzle. You should be able to see the differences between the two breeds and it appears that these are the most popular breeds today, so it's a fairly safe bet that this is what you have.

Homers are easy, they are strong flying, strong in appearance and have pronounced ceres. If all of your birds look similar to these in the pictures, then this is what I'd say that you have. The rollers will be smaller in most cases and not have the large ceres.

Bill


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

awesome birds!! a great start!! if i had to guess thae very first pic and the one of the bird on the perch by the vent both look like cock birds to me. notice the thick neck. very pronounced. a great start.
E..


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