# Training toss blues



## WFL lofts (Jul 1, 2005)

Am I ever so sick moved my birds out from 22 miles to 29 miles and lost 15 out of 30 birds. I thought I had done somthing wrong but 4 other lofts from the same area lost alot of birds within 2 miles of the toss site one poor guy took 60 birds and got three back another took 45 and got 16 back. I cant figure out why there are no airports close and this has been a toss site for the old timers for years with no problems any one have any clues also the weather was good?


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Oh, I am so sorry this happened! What a loss for you and the other fliers! Sure hope you're able to find some common factor to explain this.


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Sorry*

for your loss. Were they young birds? Any old birds? To bad we can't put cameras on our birds to see what happens. I hope things good better next time.


----------



## Jiggs (Apr 1, 2005)

I hope they come back as advised to me in the forum with Number One they can still come back which he did.

Maybe something happened that put them off course. I have read your posts on your training and everything seemed to be going well. I think they would come back. Or rather I hope so!


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

wow--how weird to all of you having bad luck in that area. Like a Bermuda Triangle for pigeons!  
One thng I've been looking at lately is solar flare activity. I've read how this can affect pigeons--especially ones going onger distances. You can keep track of major flares at spaceweather.com--
I don't know if this would be a factor--but it's interesting. 
I hope to hear soon that your flock has returned!  
Catherine


----------



## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

*Unnatural causes.*

My friend Ralph Baker told me that his racing club in Dayton, Ohio had been losing an unusually high amount of pigeons from one drop site back in the 70s, in Kentucky. 
One of the members followed the pigeons from his car to find out what was happening. He found that a bunch of the locals were gathering on the hillsides of a valley the pigeons flew through and having a pigeon shoot every weekend. 
The birds were always released at the same time and the locals shot them for sport as they flew home. They even kept the bands in jars. He had a rather heated conversation with them and mentioned the Federal penalties for harming homing pigeons. They agreed to stop shooting them.
I hope your birds make it home.
Keith C.


----------



## WFL lofts (Jul 1, 2005)

well I got three more back today but my young team is at 20 birds Im so depressed. I better not find out anyone is shooting them I will prosicute them I dont care how much a good lawyer cost me.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Guys, I am very sorry this is happening (the shooting of the pigeons). Please do know that homing pigeons are not protected under state or federal law nor are feral pigeons .. ferals are not protected at all and your racing pigeons are protected under .. only at best .. cruelty to animal statues in your states. They (racers and ferals) are not protected under any state or federal laws as birds. Only native wild birds are protected under federal law.

Don't count on federal law or even state law for helping you with this .. you have domesticated birds and the feds won't touch it .. state might .. local maybe .. Please do keep us posted.

Terry


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

There are many theories for crashes like this one. One is the Sun activity and sun spots. They may come staggering in. Four or Five days later. You may do a search on the net for pigeon losses. I remember reading about a crash in Europe that they attributed to the Sun activity. Their was also something about birds falling out of the sky dead. If I can find the article again I will send it to you. Read the training methods of redroselofts.com. They send their birds out from the same toss site in small groups of 10 or so. When they arrive home they send the next group. This way if one group runs into trouble they just bring the others back. This limits their losses. 
Randy


----------



## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

WFL lofts said:


> Am I ever so sick moved my birds out from 22 miles to 29 miles and lost 15 out of 30 birds. I thought I had done somthing wrong but 4 other lofts from the same area .
> 
> You've done nothing wrong. This has been happening for the last 12yrs.+ or so. We here in the High Desert of California train along & everything goes good, then for no reason huge loss's on the same day.. YB's we lose many on these, but OB's they just come in all day looking as though they flew a 500mi. race & hurts them for the yr... I've checked on these days & Solar Flares have been normal.... What big boom has happened in the last 12 or more yrs.?? CELL PHONES & MICRO WAVE TOWERS!! That is what we are begining to think. We have always flown over Big Air Force Bases here without this problem till I say in the last 12 or so yrs. when this started happening.. I have an open mind on this subject, & none of us know for sure. Just what common sense is telling me...... Last yr. it was on my 14th YB toss at 60mi. that this happened to 4 of us. Blue Bird day, all 4 of us trained well, & we lose close to half with normal Solar Flare's. Something to think of.. Hap


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Waiting*

Has anybody esle come home? Dear LORD, Please help these little birds find thier ways home. Amen.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well................just got off the phone with one of our fellow flyers. Seems the story is the same all over. High losses. Our club has gone from 9 members that were going to fly YB's to now what looks like just 3 or 4. The lady I just talked to had taken her birds, (don't know exactly how many) on a 60 mile toss. This was the third time the birds had been released from there. About 50 birds did not come home. Now I believe that a lot of them will show up in the next few days, but why is this happening? HAPPY...........I think you are right. Cell phones and just new technology is general is effecting our birds in some way. The problems are................who's going to step up to the plate and try to figure it all out??? and.......how long do we keep doing this? Loosing so many birds year after year. We have gone from 52 birds down to 28 in just a few weeks. It's NOT FAIR TO THE BIRDS, it's not fair to the fancier. I'm not sure if I can continue on like this. So SAD


----------



## WFL lofts (Jul 1, 2005)

Thats why Im so sick its not fair to the birds and it breaks my heart to lose any of them. Well its been 6 days and I have not goten any more back all I can hope for is they have found food water and a dry home.


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Sorry*

It still hurt when your birds don't come home. If it hurt to much you might consider showing homer and let them fly for fun.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Training Losses*



WFL lofts said:


> Am I ever so sick moved my birds out from 22 miles to 29 miles and lost 15 out of 30 birds. I thought I had done somthing wrong but 4 other lofts from the same area lost alot of birds within 2 miles of the toss site one poor guy took 60 birds and got three back another took 45 and got 16 back. I cant figure out why there are no airports close and this has been a toss site for the old timers for years with no problems any one have any clues also the weather was good?


Hello WFL Lofts,

I am sorry for your losses, it is a bitter pill, we have all tasted at one time or another.

I don't know what your experience level is, to attempt to come up with a valid explanantion could take a book. It may, or may not have been something that you could have prevented. 

I will add my comments here, which may not apply to your situation, but may be food for thought. Whenever I hear of losses, I always here about sun spots, cell phones, etc. etc. etc. It is easy to blame such things, rather then blame the management. I tend to believe, that alot of my past losses were to blame on me, and not cell phones and such. 

Good health, and proper conditioning are necessary before we can expect immature birds to home from 29 miles. If for example, they get caught up in another flock and head 45 minutes in the wrong direction, if they don't have the strength and condition to make up that hour and a half, and head in the correct direction, they will go down somewhere. They are very impressionable at this age, and should they find a food and water source, they may never return home.

I don't know how many training tosses you made, over what time period ? It is possible, that more shorter tosses before the 29 mile mark, "could" have helped. Also, how were they returning from the previous distances ? Did they come back home panting, or late ? Also, how were they loft flying in between these training tosses ? Were they flying for a good hour around the house ? Or were they flying for 15 or 20 minutes and then sitting on the roof ?

In the end, even if you did everything perfect, it is possible the results could have been the same. I keep a log, or journal if you will, of all types of little details, such as flying times, various behavoirs, etc. This has helped me spot various problem areas. 

I suggest, that you examine some of the above, and back off your training distance for awhile, and proceed carefully and thoughtfully. If four other lofts experienced similar losses near that same area, I would not train from that area again. In 2003 I lost allot of birds also, and flew the season with only 14 birds. In nine races, I only lost one more bird. Who knows, perhaps some of those lost birds, were just not racing material. Try not to get discouraged, we have all been there.


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

It's been happening all over North America for the past couple of years... YB losses are really high - and even OB losses are higher than usual.

The entire environment is changing. No one has ever really proven HOW a homer gets "home", so any number of things could be the cause. Electric grids/towers - cell phone towers - shifts in the magnetic pull of the earth (remember, scientists STILL don't know how much change the Earth went through after the huge earthquake/tsunamis of last December) - sun spots..... all of these could be contributing.

Also, there are a lot of diseases in YB's that don't always show up right away -- especially if you're training with other fancier's birds - and when racing season starts. You could have 50 birds that look healthy - but are in fact fighting off some illness. A training toss could be too much for some of them. A few days later - you might see the ones that did return looking 'off'. I've heard that story time and time again from fanciers -- even ones who've been 'in pigeons' for years. Diseases that did not appear in birds years ago are now showing up. Over medicating is making some of these diseases resistant to treatment.

In some areas, milder winters than normal means more hawks in the area - something that can devistate a YB flock - a hawk diving into the middle of YB's makes them scatter to all corners of the compass..... and makes them not pay attention to where they are flying -- they could smash into trees/wires that under normal flying, they would see and avoid.

Training YB is frustrating and heartbreaking at times, for sure!


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Training Losses*



WhiteWingsCa said:


> It's been happening all over North America for the past couple of years... YB losses are really high - and even OB losses are higher than usual.
> 
> The entire environment is changing. No one has ever really proven HOW a homer gets "home", so any number of things could be the cause. Electric grids/towers - cell phone towers - shifts in the magnetic pull of the earth (remember, scientists STILL don't know how much change the Earth went through after the huge earthquake/tsunamis of last December) - sun spots..... all of these could be contributing.
> 
> ...


Hello White Wings,

I am not going to disagree with you, on any of your points. I do recall in 65' guys blaming the space craft launches from the cape, color TV, sun spots, and the like. I just don't know if losses are really worse today, then thirty or forty years ago. Way back when, guys didn't train as hard as they do today. They also didn't use the darkening or lighting system, or pour drugs into the birds like today.

Since none of us know, how our pigeons find their way home, who is to say where the "blame" lies. We can't control the use of cell phones, sun spots, or whatever. Our breeding, loft management, and training, is what we as owners do control. I know guys that mass produce 150+ YB's in anticipation of their losses. Somehow, this quanity over quality mind set, must be having an impact I am afraid. 

Regardless which way you may lean, we are all training in the same enviroment, every thing else being equal, the best birds, in the best health and condition, will still win the races.


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I know guys that mass produce 150+ YB's in anticipation of their losses. Somehow, this quanity over quality mind set, must be having an impact I am afraid.
> 
> Regardless which way you may lean, we are all training in the same enviroment, every thing else being equal, the best birds, in the best health and condition, will still win the races.



Ugh -- I know of a couple of 'racers' who raise youngsters like that ... it's stupid and selfish, if you ask me.

When I look at "higher" losses in our area though, I'm talking percentage - not number of birds. Many people are losing 80-100 % of their YB's by the end of racing season. 50% or less used to be the "norm" for just about everyone I know.

We raise 20-30 youngsters for the YB race team. The best results have been years when we've had 20 or less -- it's easier to manage, healthier for the birds, and you're able to keep an eye on each bird's condition much more easily.

It would be nice to know though, why things have changed so much - so that we can, if possible, reverse some of the problems. Over-use of medication is one - and I think a lot of people are starting to realize that now.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello WFL Lofts,
> 
> I am sorry for your losses, it is a bitter pill, we have all tasted at one time or another.
> 
> ...


OK,

I must back up, from my "expert" attitude. This morning I took my experienced, healthy, YB team on a 35 mile training toss. They have been there before. That was at about 7 AM this morning. It is now 5:35 PM, and I am missing 23 out of a 38 member team.  

It has been quite awhile since this has happened. This writer, is now, not quite as smug. Even if some return in the following days, they may need weeks to recover. They all had 18 previous tosses, it was good weather, and they were released from this spot before, so go figure.


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

"go figure" is a phrase heard often in pigeon training... 

I know in our experience, any time we've had a poor return like that -- it's been because a hawk has panicked the flock, and sent them scattering to all points of the compass. We've ended up driving all over to pick up birds -- or had them return scattered over a couple of days -- and either one not return at all, or one return with talon wounds. Especially when it's from a spot that the birds have been to before.

We took over 100 birds from 5 different lofts out training one day -- we had only a couple of ours return that day - the rest returned over the next few days. One of the other guys, who had flown birds for over 50 years, didn't see a single one of his birds until the next day. Two of the others had about 1/2 their birds back on the day, and the rest trickled in like ours.

The 5th guy had 21 of 22 birds back on the day. Yep, go figure.....  

Hubby and I were discussing this -- and one of the sites he frequents has been discussing the same issue. Some of the 'old boys' have been dragging out really old copies of the Pigeon Digest and similar mags -- and even in the 40's, 50's and 60's, YB losses have been what is considered 'high'. Apparently, less than 75% loss is a good year......  So, it's not so much that things have changed -- just that more people are talking about/admitting it..... LOL


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I just read all of these posts and it's just mind boggling. Warren, sorry to hear about your birds. Hope they return and I bet they do. You know, besides all the cell towers etc.................I think maybe we just try to hard sometimes. I posted earlier that a lot of our members had lost a large amount of birds and that we probably are not going fly in the combine this year. The only flyer who has NOT lost a lot of birds is the new guy. Just built his loft in March, was given 38 birds by all of the club members, started training WAY before the rest of us even thought about training, doesn't know squat about pigeons and guess what. He's lost 4 birds so far. Beginners luck???? Maybe..........but I don't think so. We taught him the basics. To feed properly, don't overcrowd, etc..........He even took two young birds home one night, had them in his loft for 2 days and let them out and they trapped in like they had been doing it all their life. We gave him 12 birds from our loft. He's still got brothers/sisters to some of the ones we've lost. GO FIGURE  He's a little disheartened now because he's doing so good with his birds and the rest of us are not and because of that he probably won't get to race his birds with the combine.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Training Update !!*

OK,

I can be smug again..  stragglers returned over the next 24 hours, and were returned to the release site, and we did this for three days, then a day off, and all over again. Today, they made a 50 mile training toss in 62 minutes !! Not to shabby !!!


----------



## Rrune (Jul 23, 2005)

*Maybe it is H.A.A.R.P.*

Hi ... 

I am new here and i do not mean to create a stir, however, i have been aware of a govt. funded facility that might just be the answer to this ominous pattern. 

HAARP, which stands for High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program. Designed to disrupt any prying ears from across the globe. I am sure their webpage will depict a very benign reason for shooting High Frequency Radiation into the ionosphere, but as with all technology what they say and what fellow scientists say are typically two different opinions. So without bashing them or being biased i will give you a link to their main site and perhaps a few others. 

HAARP homepage 

One of the primary reasons i looked into this was because of the odd occurances of "freaky" weather in otherwise "freakyless" areas. LOL ... just my own humor. For instance, back about 4 years ago there were multiple tornado sightings in Arizona that are normally unheard of, turns out that several colleges reported levels of high and low frequency radio waves present during these events, they looked into it and turns out that yes the array in Alaska was in full swing during those times. 

One of those not so friendly, appreciative, agreeable sites on HAARP 

Certainly could be a possibility, and with that noted you might find out if it is possible to get a schedule of zappings so that you can release your birds when the array is not in use (if there is a schedule). I should hope that this antennae array is not running 24/7.

Ok, ...Huggs to all of you, and i do hope your birds are safe and sound. 
....Ron


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Rrune said:


> Hi ...
> 
> I am new here and i do not mean to create a stir, however, i have been aware of a govt. funded facility that might just be the answer to this ominous pattern.
> 
> ...


Hello Ron,

I just knew it !!!
My wife thought I was crazy !! But, now this explains not only any YB losses, but also those voices I hear in my head !!! Thank you so very much, this proves what I thought was going on all along !!


----------



## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

HAARP --- Ron, I find this VERY INTERESTING. 1st I've heard of this & the time frame is about the correct timing. Just read a little so far, so will go into it throughly tomorrow. Thanks for sending something with some backing. Some people think this Unknown Factor won't or doesn't happen to there Super Birds, Super Health, etc., but will understand when there luck runs out. Just one of the "for no apparent reason" YB (in particular) high loss days for no reason will make them understand. A lot of us aren't new at this sport, & will admit there is a Big problem happening, where some have been lucky., or live in a more protected zone & just can't understand..... Thanks, Happy


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

You might be right about HAARP causing part of the problem. What about what we've heard about the earths poles changing? birds released from an area affected by this, even if it has been a good release point in the past. would go 180 degrees the wrong way thinking they were heading home. 

Last youngbird my brother and I released from a spot appox 20 miles from our homes. I released my birds first, they went up circled a couple of times then did just that took a bee line the opposite way from home. we waited approx. 15 min thinking the birds were just messing around. then gave up waiting on them and released my brothers birds from the same location. They did the same thing! I've never seen anything like it before or since but both teams went directly away from our homes. Three days later and we both had less than a third of our birds return. 

I got on the internet and found a web site that shows earth quake activity for my area the web site I visited was www.noaa.gov and sure enough the whole week prior to releasing the birds. the area where we released had been having minor earth quake activity. I think it caused a change in the magnetic fields in the immediate area causing the birds to go the opposite direction from home. who knows how far they flew before they began turning and trying to get back home. all I know is most never made it.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I would still be inclined to think that Sun problems. electro magnetic storms. Because its becomeing a global problem in bird losses . perhaps increased flares have became a more often problem . In this case the magnetic pull increases And perhaps a intference in polar draw. Its been said the birds get the feel for the magentic area arounf there loft area. I can not say for sure. But a global happening. Relates to the sun to me. I first thought that since 9/11 That more radar could be a problem. But K days are perhaps My best answer.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

The K factor may be a part as well, I personally dont train youngsters with anything over a 4 during their early training. even oldbirds I dont like to train in anything over a 5. Course on race days you dont much of a choice they are going to get whatever the get. I ckd the K factor on the day I described regarding the birds going 180 degree the wrong way. the k factor was only a 3 that day. so I dont think it played a major factor. 

a polar flip could cause major problems similar to 5's or over on the k factor. If the poles do in fact flip over I think you'll see greater losses for a time, untill the electromagnetic fields calm down again.


----------

