# foot fell off what to do now with stump



## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

Hello,
I'm new here and have been trying to help a pigeon that had bad string feet. Got all the strings off by yesterday and the pigeon seemed to be doing ok but this morning when I went to put antibiotic on feet the left, and worst of the two feet, fell off leaving me with a bad bleeder. I managed to stop flow with dental tape tourniquet and cornstarch but now with a bandage on there is still a little blood/bleeding. The pigeon is on its back to keep foot above heart in hopes that blood will coagulate. How long will this take, when can I set it right side up, what do I need to do the help the stump (fell off at ankle/hock) heal. Right foot looks like it willl survive and be a good foot again so pij will have a leg to stand on. Any help will be greatly appreciated by replying here or directly by email.
I am just being a good samaritan and pigeons are not birds I know anything about.
thanks
dave lyons


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and welcome to Pigeons.com

Thank you for helping this pigeon.


I have e-mailed several members of the forum that can help with this, as that is one thing I've never experienced.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Ooo! Yes, they bleed and it's best to stop the bleeding as far down as possible. The problems that occur if you clamp it up too high is that the bone will protrude and the skin will adhere to it around the bone. You'd rather that the skin eventually closes over the bone end and forms a pad.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, the long portion above the toes is called the Tarsometatarsus and is actually analogous to the portion of our foot between the toes and the heal. That is to say that pigeons walk on their toes and the true heel is up about an inch or so above the ground. How far down from that "heel" is the end of the bad one in comparison to the other leg?

Go to this webpage and see if you can use Paint to make a mark on a copy of the file to show where this pigeon's leg separated:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Then you can either email it to one of us or post it on this thread.

By the way, where are you?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Davereen, 


I just thought I would mention that one of the wild/feral Pigeons here, lost a foot from string in 1994,, and she is still doing fine as a wild Bird, having raised many young and is as vivid today as she was 11 years ago.

She devloped a thicker calloused skin over the end of her leg, and aside form a slight limp, walks just fine and takes off and lands normally. Her foot was lost low, just above where the Toes converge, so, really, as Pidgey mentions, she lost actually only some of her 'foot', or lost all her Toes, and her original sole or palm, technically...

Hers did not bleed, however, and was already 'dead' in it's way and tangled-dangleing when I first saw her in the flock here, so I did not have do deal with that at the time.

Too, if there is any way you could post or e-mail an image showing the abbreviated leg, that would help us see better where the leg ends.

It might be prudent to guard against any advance of infection which could compromise the bone in the end of the leg being now exposed somewhat, for which Baytril, orally, might be good, in addition to a topical antibiotic of some kind, and clean conditions of course for the bandaged end to be protected by...but others will hopefully have somehting to say about this.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I agree with Phil that a course of Baytril should be started.

Maggie


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*stump of leg*

Hello Pidgey,
The seperation came at the connection of the tarsometatasis and the digits. I have a picture which I will email to you if I can figure out how to do it.
It started to bleed again and took some time to get it under control and when it stopped for some time, I put liquid bandage on it. I had been giving the pigeon ornacycline (tetracycline for birds) in water but can't say how much she has benn drinking. I also gave her water from eyedropper and she was thirsty so I suspect she didn't drink much from bowl. She is resting in a smaller box indoors tonight and she was resting when I checked. She is a pigeon that comes to the yard of a birdfeeder friend and has a mate there. How long do I need to keep her under wraps? Can I put multiple layers of liquid bandage on? I tried a bandage but being a short stump and a flexing leg it is difficult to get it to stay on. I was thinking of making a bandage around a pencil to form a kind of cloth tube and then slipping that over the leg and fill it with triple antibiotic and glueing the whole business with liquid bandage to her skin, which is quite red and probably very tender. Her other foot looks as though it will be OK and have put on Bach Rescue remedy creme.
thanks
dave lyons
Ventura, CA


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*picture of foot*

Hello Pidgey,
Here is a picture of the foot after it fell off. Hope this helps with diagnosis.
thanks
dave


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Dave, 


OH, how awful!!! Seems like a pretty nasty infection must have set in and all the surrounding tissue died....horrible


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wow Dave! That was a nasty looking foot. The bird really does need to be on a stronger antibiotic that can be accurately dosed. Why don't you give Beth Garcia a call and see if she will help you get that stump bandaged and perhaps provide you with some antibiotic. Her e-mail is [email protected] and her phone # is 805-320-2438. She is listed in our Pigeon Resources Directory at http://www.pigeons.com/prd.htm. I have had the pleasure of meeting her personally, and we exchange e-mails fairly often regarding our bird patients. She is a terrific rehabber, and I think she might be of great assistance to you and your pigeon.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Avascular necrosis. That's about what you'd expect of the foot. Actually a picture of what's left is going to be more informative. What I expect at this point is a slightly protruding Tarsometatarsus. It's probably all still there but possibly Osteomyelitic. That would need to be resolved by antibiotics. 

If the remaining skin is too short to cover the bone end, then it's hard to say. I currently have two pigeons with protruding bones that have not been a problem, one being a protruding bone from the remains of a toe. The vet said that the bone has internally sealed and it's not a problem. I think it's slowly wearing away. 

In your bird's case, it's going to be a load-bearing structure so the question is how it's going to behave in the future. I've seen a few pigeons with toeless feet in San Francisco and I know that the members who live in many big cities have to address such problems all the time. I think it will be a different call depending on whether you plan to keep the bird vs. releasing it back to the wild. The likelihood of long-term pododermatitis (bumblefoot, but not the classic presentation) is pretty high. I think it would be better if you can get the skin to cover the bone end. Do you know what your intentions are at this point with respect to releasing the bird?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Davreen,

The same thing happened to one of my rescues, see this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10191&referrerid=560

She will need to be kept warm and rehydrated, because she will be suffering from shock. Instead of giving her plain water mix a pint of warm water, add half a tablespoon of glucose, honey or sugar and half a teaspoon of salt.

The vet told me that sometimes when there is bone exposed after the foot falls off it will necrotise and crumble, then get covered by a pad of skin. This is what happened in my Cinderella's case.

Cinders is still with me and has adjusted well to her condition. In my opinion if they survive after the loss of a foot they are in a better state than if they just lose toes, there seems to be less pain if the whole foot goes.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Dave,

Pidgey's correct about the toeless ones in San Francisco, and there are also footless ones here as well. Wildcare in San Rafael told me that they treat string injuries on pigeons and if necessary will amputate toes and even sometimes feet. After giving the bird time to heal and see how well they are able to bear weight on the foot, will release the bird back to it's pick-up location as long as it is still able to use whatever is left. Surgery maybe different than a situation where the foot has fallen off on it's own as it is a precise science as opposed to having the foot separate perhaps in an inconvenient way for the bird to heal properly. I would think time would tell.

There is one pigeon who comes to my mind, that I used to "play" with in SF, who had two stumps. At one point this past summer, he'd lost all his tail feathers. The last time I saw him, he was still getting along admirably and was well on his way to a set of new tailfeathers. The little guy was fast as hell despite all of his tribulations.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There's no accounting for the power of the will to go on. Some have it and will adapt to almost any challenge and others will give up early.

Pidgey


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*pigeon alive, drinking and eating soon I hope*

Hello all,
thanks for the many helpful suggestions. Pij is alive and drinking and grunting a bit, able to stand one her one leg and stump, still in small box to keep her from flaping wings and hurting them. I haven't yet looked at stump this morning--trying not to handle her too much--don't want the bleeding to start again. The picture of the foot looks bad but much of the black areas were blisters filled with some blood and fluid, but no pus as far as I could see. There was no real skin to pull over the bone end and that was about the size of a pencil eraser or less and got covered over with liquid bandage for protection and a little cush on the end. I will have to get this pigeon well for release as I have a starling to care for indoors--hawk victim--and apartment dwelling is no place for a pigeon.I also feed 10 jays, 5 woodpeckers, 20-40 crows,one lovely black phoebe from the hand, starlings and many other small birds, so I'm busy all day. She is a real survivor --a compliment to pigeons everywhere. Thanks Terry for the contact number. As soon as I examine the stump more closely I will decide how to proceed.
Many thanks to all for advice and support. 
dave


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Dave,

Can you supply us with a picture of the stump so others here can make suggestions?


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

I nearly vomited when I saw the picture  

I dont understand why it happened to the pigeon either

I hope this is only a rare case of what can happen to pigeon pets, becuase I wouldn't be able handle things like this 

I fell really sick


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

LondonPigeon said:


> I dont understand why it happened to the pigeon either
> 
> I hope this is only a rare case of what can happen to pigeon pets, becuase I wouldn't be able handle things like this


Hi LondonPigeon,

This particular pigeon is a feral pigeon that Dave rescued when he noticed how badly injured the feet were. Unfortunately string entanglement (can be hair, string, fishing line) is fairly common in feral pigeons. They are also subject to attacks by predators (be they birds, animals, or humans) and often suffer horrific injuries from these attacks. They also can fly into windows, walls, power lines, and do significant damage. Then there are all the nasty diseases that they can get.

All in all, life for a feral pigeon can be pretty rough at times, and I'm always so happy when someone takes the time and makes the effort to help a needy bird or animal.

Terry


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi LondonPigeon,
> 
> This particular pigeon is a feral pigeon that Dave rescued when he noticed how badly injured the feet were. Unfortunately string entanglement (can be hair, string, fishing line) is fairly common in feral pigeons. They are also subject to attacks by predators (be they birds, animals, or humans) and often suffer horrific injuries from these attacks. They also can fly into windows, walls, power lines, and do significant damage. Then there are all the nasty diseases that they can get.
> 
> ...


oh ok

I didnt mean to offend anyone when I said I felt sick, but thats how I felt when I saw the image 

I hope the pigeon is ok


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, not to worry, LondonPigeon, you didn't offend anyone. It certainly affects me when I see stuff like that, too, but I'm battle-hardened, as many here are. We just recoil from the initial shock and get down to the "what can we do" part much faster.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi London Pigeon,

John and I transported a pigeon across the country to Helen/Nooti (one of our moderators).

As soon as she examined it the foot fell off and blood started to spurt everywhere. Like you I felt sick and had to leave the room. The pigeon survived (eventually both feet were lost), and Helen told me waht she had done to save his life. When I was faced with the same situation I was able to cope. That is the way it goes....you feel nauseous when someone else deals with it, but when a life is in your hands your focus changes and you are able to cope.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi LondonPigeon,


These things are often hard on me also...my 'body' and emotions recoil or cringe or I get weak knees.

Too, this image shows dramatically, why many of us do in fact watch closely for signs of string, thread, hair, or fine fibres from untwisted synthetis yarns or other, which occur on the feet of Pigeons, likely from their having gatherd such when building Nests for their Babys, and then tromped around on it after.

I catch them when I can from my 'own' feral flock here...

Thankfully, the vast majority of instances I have encountered are not yet critical, or, at times, there is the loss of a Toe possibly.

I do not believe there are any materials in Nature which could get them into these kinds of troubles...but the advent of casually disposed of synthetic lines, threads, sometimes longish human hair, or odd very fine fire threads of I know not what provenance that is very stong and even much smaller than human hair in diameter...once tangled in their Feet, can just keep tightening and tightening somehow...in it's winds and tangles...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi LondonPigeon .. nobody was at all offended at what you felt when you saw that awful picture of the foot. I was merely trying to point out that such injuries are not uncommon. I, too, have had birds come in where I wasn't really sure if I was going to toss my cookies or not or perhaps even faint .. but, as Pidgey, Phil, and Cynthia have posted, you quickly get yourself back together and do what you can for the bird or animal.

Terry


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*pegeon update 5:30 pm*

Hello to all following the progess of pij. At 5:30 pm she is resting, she got water and food and I have slathered on more antibiotic and covered her stump with a gauze tube fashioned over the barrel of an inkpen, and taped around with papertape and it makes quite a good bandage. I slipped it over the stump on top of the a/b and it looks as though it will hold for a while, and keep the end clean and provide a bumping buffer juist in case she touches down.. Couldn't tape it to her leg as her skin is very sensitive--just touching brings on spasms. I gave her antibiotic in her water and also fed her some with eyedroppper. She is quite calm for a wild pigeon. She's a bit cramped in the small box but it keeps her from moving around too much. Tomorrow the bigger box. She had sunshine and fresh air this morning. More tomorrow, thanks to all of you for your caring suggestions and comments.
dave


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dave, 


Sounds very good...

And 'warmth' of course for them...(sorry, I forget if that had been mentioned? But if it had not, you know, an Electric Heating pad, set up so she can be on it or off of it...set to 'medium' maybe if your clime is a cooler one, with a soft towell over it, and even a rumpled small towell for an inviting lay-cusion, on top of that...)

The Sunshine and Freash Air are excellent...

Their appetite is good?

Phil
el ve


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

I'm glad the pigeon is alive and calm

becuase much worse could have happened.


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*pij update friday*

Hello,
pij has made it through another night, her "fever" seems to be gone this morning (her body was quite hot to the touch for awhile), she had food and water and is resting. I think from this point on, it will be her own system doing what it can to help her recover. She stood on her "good" foot for a bit this morning so it is working. Thanks to all for your posts and hepful information. This is an example where people all over the world can help via their connection to the net. THis is when the technology shines. A world of helpful experience at my fingertips and I an greatful and pij will survive because of what I got from all of you.
many thanks for sharing and caring. I'll post a release note when she's ready .
dave


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dave,


Very glad to here of their feeling better..!

Thank you for helping tis Pigeon with your good work!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*pij took to the skies today*

Hello everybody,
Pij was doing very well and started wingslapping me when I changed the water so I decided the day was today since she was feeling her oats. I returned to where I got her, put her on the lawn when she couldn't believe she was free to go, stretched her wings after 7 days of cramped quarters, and flew up to the garage roof. She was welcomed back by her mate who flew down from his perch on the utility pole, did a dance and circled several times and then headed for the chow. It took perhaps 1/2 hour for her to get her bearings, exercise her wings a bit and off she went, her mate in tow. It is definitely a happy ending for her. She has one good functioning leg and foot that is soft, halix is folded under but the toes work, her stump is clean and looks like it will scab over, she had no fever that I could feel, and she flew steadily. I couldn't more for her than that.
Thanks again to all for your very helpful advice .
dave


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Great Going Daveerin!*

Love those happy endings!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This pigeon, with injuries as severe as she had, should have been kept confined for a period longer than 7 days. The stump should have been allowed to heal over and harden. She also lost a great deal of blood and needed more than a week to recoup her strength. If she has a hard landing or hits a ledge the scab may come off and the stump will start bleeding again. The wild birds that we see that are able to cope with a stump probably did not bleed as badly as this pigeon because the string, hair, etc. that caused the foot to die off also acted as a tourniquet.

Please understand that I don't mean to be critical. When a person has never worked with pigeons, it is often difficult to know the right thing to do. You were kind to be concerned enough to rescue her and treat her. I post this only in hopes that if a similar situation occurs that others will know more of what to do.


Maggie


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*Longer recuperation for pij*

Hello Maggie,
No offense taken. I had to make some decisions based on what I could do for the pigeon and I too considered that more days would help but while she was eating, it wasn't enough even though she got sunflower seeds and walnut pieces and well as regular seed . Stress , captivity and handling were having a bad effect on her. Her poops were black in some cases and I understand that can result from starvation, she was living in a box in my bath tub, I live in an apartment -second floor , no less, I"m already caring for a hawk-injured starling with a wing and respiration problem. I did carefully look at the stump and it seemed healed (it was very clean, no tissue ends, no bleeding ) over reasonably well from an amateurs point of view, her blood loss was not so great( I think) from the lost foot but there may have been some in the blisters that were on that foot. Her other foot had recovered remarkably well, it was warm, pliable, she was able to stand/hop on it and I figured she had as good a chance at that point as any. I also understand they mate for life and I actually had a concern that her mate would look elsewhere and she would be in a worse pickle being one-legged and without a helper. I've been feeding a female scrubjay for about 3 years and she recently suffered a broken leg and she comes to me for food when I call, but her mate also feeds her. I suspect she wouldn't make it without help during this healing period. Feet are everything to jays in the same way we value our hands. It was a tough choice and under other circumstances I would have acted differently in pij's regard.
again, thanks to all
dave


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dave,


I also thought the release may have been earlier than might have been hoped...

But your reasoning makes sense to me, in the balance, and overall, weighing the factors, your choice under the circumstanses seems sensible for the benifit of the Bird. 

Her mate will have missed her and will likely have remained poised for her return, where longer, this might have changed if he had given up on her returning.

Otherwise, considering the Bird out of context otherwise, some more time would have been prudent.

Black poops are typical of when they eat Sunflower Seeds in-the-hull...

Starvation usually is dabs of poo resembleing green Artist's Tube-Oil Paint.

Good job..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Dave, thanks for the explanation. You sound like a busy person helping all the little "critters" you come across. You cared enough for this pigeon to help it out and not many people would have done that.

The story of the scrub jay feeding its mate is touching.

Maggie


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## daveerin (Nov 30, 2005)

*Pij returned to feed with her mate and friends*

Hello,
Yesterday, my friend in whose yard I found pij , told me that pij returned with her mate and friends and fed for quite a while. She said that pij looked good, used her good foot but was still unsteady on only one leg . All's well that ends well
dave


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Dave, that is great news. Maggie


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Dave,

That is great news as I worried obout him also!

Denise


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