# why some antibiotics recomend to remove the grit?



## adamant (Apr 16, 2009)

why do some antibiotics recomend to remove the grit?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If I'm not mistaken, the oyster shell/calcium can make it harder for the bird to absorb the medicine into the blood stream. But I do know for a fact that if your grit contains activated charcoal bits (as in red grit), then you'll want to remove it (or you could just pick out all the charcoal pieces... ) because charcoal adsorbs and breaks down toxins and makes them useless. That includes any medication.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Becky is right. The calcium in the grit will interfere with the medicine. So no vitamins or anything that contains calcium either. Becky, I never thought about the charcoal. Interesting.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

I have also heard NO GRIT/NO VITAMINES...so makes me wonder how Vita Kings 5 in 1 works, they claim to this mix treats respitory/canker/worms/coccidiosis + has probotics/vitamins...now if most antibiotics kill the probotics makes me wonder what one they use that makes this one so special and also if your not suppose to use vitamines while using this antibiotics due to the reasons stated above how does this treatments still work with the use of vitamines present? I happen to use 5 and 1 but have not given it much thought until i read this post.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Airbaby said:


> I have also heard NO GRIT/NO VITAMINES...so makes me wonder how Vita Kings 5 in 1 works, they claim to this mix treats respitory/canker/worms/coccidiosis + has probotics/vitamins...now if most antibiotics kill the probotics makes me wonder what one they use that makes this one so special and also if your not suppose to use vitamines while using this antibiotics due to the reasons stated above how does this treatments still work with the use of vitamines present? I happen to use 5 and 1 but have not given it much thought until i read this post.


Well, you don't have to pull the calcium for all antibiotics. Don't see what the point of putting probiotics in with it though. You're supposed to wait and give that to them afterward.
Lots of people don't like the 4 in 1, or 5 in 1 meds. I think you're better off giving meds for the one thing that you are treating for. Don't think the others have enough of any one med to do any good. JMO.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

I for one like 5 in 1 from our own experience, but from what i have learned about about how antiobiotics and probrotics/vitamines dont mix it has me wondering how the 5 in 1 really works or if it really does as far as the probotic/vitamine components of the mix goes.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

adamant said:


> why do some antibiotics recomend to remove the grit?


Calcium not only interefers with medicine, but medicine for infections and infections actually can keep calcium from absorbing into their bodies. This is what causes bone spurs in humans.


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

Not giving the medications/calcium at same time as grit/charcoal makes alot of sense and I should have thought of it myself when I had Beau to the Vet. Makes me wonder why the Vet instructed me to give Baytril, Sulfa + Calcium all at same time


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, like they said, it may not bother ALL medicines. I have no idea which ones it does and doesn't effect...so....I just try to give all the medicine the same treatment by taking away the grit just in case  

And about the multiple medications packed into one, I don't like them either. I guess it's good for people who like to clean out their breeders before breeding season, then they could knock it all out pretty quick. But still, I don't like medicating for anything unless they have it. Even if they do have a few different problems, usually the treatment is still more effective if done one at a time.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The problem in giving calcium containing grit or calcium simultaneously w/certain antibiotics is that the calcium will bind w/the antibiotic rendering
it useless to perform the function that the medicine was intended to do.
Meanwhile, your bird will continue to suffer the illness.

Medicines that should not be combined w/grit and/or calcium are those in the Tetracycline class of antibiotics i.e., Tetracycline, Doxycycline, Oxytetracycline, etc., in addition to Baytril and for that matter, other members of the Fluoroquinolone class of meds such as Ciprofloxacin & Norfloxacin.

There are vitamins available that don't have calcium in the product, one needs to check the panel that lists the vitamins and minerals in the product to be certain.

Another big no-no is giving birds brewers yeast simultaneously w/any antibiotic, as antibiotics throw the normal flora off and encourage yeast/fungal overgrowth as a result, so it's a matter of 'fanning the flame'.

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Trees Gray said:


> Calcium not only interefers with medicine, but medicine for infections and infections actually can keep calcium from absorbing into their bodies. This is what causes bone spurs in humans.


Wow! I didn't know that about bone spurs. Thanks for the info.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Airbaby said:


> I have also heard NO GRIT/NO VITAMINES...so makes me wonder how Vita Kings 5 in 1 works, they claim to this mix treats respitory/canker/worms/coccidiosis + has probotics/vitamins...now if most antibiotics kill the probotics makes me wonder what one they use that makes this one so special and also if your not suppose to use vitamines while using this antibiotics due to the reasons stated above how does this treatments still work with the use of vitamines present? I happen to use 5 and 1 but have not given it much thought until i read this post.


4 in 1, 5 in 1, 10 in 1. It is marketing, and it is sold to people who think more of something is better. Whether it is a good idea or not, or works or not, is not important. It sells.

Imagine going to your family Dr. and he gave you 5 different meds of which only 1 may be needed. How much confidence would you have in his medical practice ? For some reason, when it comes to our pigeons, many fanciers will simply give 4, 5, or 10 different meds, hoping that something works. 

I would like to see some written article from any avian vet, who thinks 4, or 5 or 10 different meds...plus probotics at the same time, is a good medical practice.

Such misuse and abuse of drugs, is why Rx's are required for most drugs. And why they are more regulated in some countries. I also suspect that many of newer "bugs" are the direct result of the misuse of such medications.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I know one vet I read in the RPD said to stay away from all the '- in 1' mixes and just stick with treating what is needed to be treated for.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I know one vet I read in the RPD said to stay away from all the '- in 1' mixes and just stick with treating what is needed to be treated for.


That is what the medical community will tell you. I don't think you need to go to medical school to understand that giving a whole bunch of unnecessary drugs is* not *very healthy. But, remember it was not a Dr. who dreamed up 4 in 1, 5 in 1, 10 in 1. It was merchants who saw an opportunity to mix up a bunch of cheap drugs and sell it as a "cure all" to the uninformed or novice fanciers as a simple way to treat pigeons when the fancier is most likely clueless as to what might be wrong.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> That is what the medical community will tell you. I don't think you need to go to medical school to understand that giving a whole bunch of unnecessary drugs is very healthy. But, remember it was not a Dr. who dreamed up 4 in 1, 5 in 1, 10 in 1. It was merchants who saw an opportunity to mix up a bunch of cheap drugs and sell it as a "cure all" to the uninformed or novice fanciers as a simple way to treat pigeons when the fancier is most likely clueless as to what might be wrong.


Very good point.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> ..... I don't think you need to go to medical school to understand that giving a whole bunch of unnecessary drugs is* not *very healthy......


 I had to edit myself....I meant to say the above...that it is NOT healthy to give a bunch of unnecessary drugs.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I agree, great point. And you're right, it is common sense. Medicine usually isn't the easiest thing on the system. Can drain the birds, kill their immune system, and stress them out. So why give them more than they need? 

It'd be great to have a loft of birds bred to have superior immune systems, instead of birds bred to RELY on things like 5 in 1 and this and that in order to keep from getting sick all the time. And I do know there are birds like that. Just like there are people who's bodies get relient on medication. Only in this case, it's a little bit different. 
Not saying you should cull (-hides under bed-  ) any birds that are sickly or weak. By all means, give'em some medicine and help the poor things!  But I would personally rather breed from a healthy bird than a bird who has been more prone to sickness, or who's progency have been weak/sickly as well...That's just me though...

In summary, He who medicates constantly without reason, has no room to complain when his birds get sick?  Haha.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Unnecessary medications are an obstacle to good health for any pigeon or human for that matter. It is important, however, to keep in mind that pigeons and birds in general are 'masters of disguises' when it comes to displaying illness.
By the time they are showing signs of being ill, they frequently have been sick for much longer. Couple this with the fact that they also have illnesses which are in a state of host equilibrium or dormancy waiting for an opportune set of circumstances in which to blossom, and it becomes negligent not to have some common ailment meds on hand.

It's always a good idea to have meds on hand for coccidiosis and trichomonas (including rotatable ones), in addition to a couple of big guns in case of emergencies such as Enrofloxacin and Doxycycline. Many of the meds for canker and coccidiosis combine well w/Fluoroquinlones and Tetracyclines and can be combined in severe emergencies. With this in mind,
your question is very relavent/important in terms of the health of your birds,
hopefully, you now will know which meds to pull the grit for.

fp


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