# Those Who Have & Those Who Will



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

When I got home from work today around 1700, I let Poop, JJ, BoyBird, Squeak, Shelly, BratBird1 & BratBird2 out to fly.

Its almost 2000, its pretty much dark, and all are back except Poop. I'd suppose I lost my first bird.

Maybe she'll come back, but I'll probably have dinner and close up the traps so no critters (cats) trap in over-night while I'm asleep and I'll hope she returns tomorrow or the next day.

If anyone sees a bird banded with AU 2005 ARPU 16201, she's a sweetie.


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## nabisho (Nov 18, 2004)

*There's springtime in the air you know*

perhaps she has found a nice fellow and is doing what comes naturally. I hope she returns with a big smile on her face.

NAB


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

I hope Poop finds her way home, maybe she just has to lay low for a while. I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for her.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

zig, I have young birds that stay out all night many times. They are brat birds. I had one that did not come home last night and it was sitting on the landing board this morning awaiting my arrival to open the trap. I have had others stay gone two and three days. Dont lose hope


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Zig,

Best wishes for the speedy return of Poop.

Linda


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

good, luck i lost 4 raceers out of 6 so be thankful you did loose 80% of your birds.

Hope she turns up

respectfully,

Elvis


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

One of my neighbors just knocked on my door... they found Poop on the ground in their yard. She has a really nasty wound on her chest! I don't know if she got cat caught of flew into a wire. I cleaned it up with warm water as best I could and wrapped her up in a towel and put her in the bathroom sink and closed the door. I'm going to go get some iodine and be back soon. She's alert, but not really moving much. She's hurt bad. I may loose her I'm afraid.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Well its at least better than loosing her 

Btw, isnt iodine toxic?? We had a scientific LAB expeirement and the teacher warned us that IODINE is toxic...is she wrong??


Elvis


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Zig,

Pigeons are tough .. very, very tough .. don't give up on her just yet. Also DON'T use iodine or Betadine full strength .. dilute in 1 to 9 parts water. Clean the wound and apply triple antiobiotic cream (back to the drugstore you go if you don't have it). Keep Poop very, very warm as in on heating pad on low or under a small wattage bulb .. do NOT put her outside without a heat source tonight.

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

How awful Zig

You should really get a topical antibiotic to use on the wound in case Poop was attacked by a cat, this may not be enough though if it's already in her blood stream. The bacteria will kill her if she's not treated properly. This is all speculative but it's best to treat with antibiotics in these cases. Best of luck to save her!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

We have a antibotic power that can be added to seeds or water for cat inflicted wounds that reach the bloodstream.We added a pinch to about a tablespoon of water and then forced fed a small wild bird with a dropper.I don't think it would hurt the pigeon if it was not attacked by a cat. Maybe someone can varify this. The medicine is called Tetracycline.We are releasing the sparrow~like bird in the morning by the way.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Zig,
Really sorry to hear about Poop's condition. I think Vdog has a good point. 
fp


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

You and Poop are going to be in my prayers plus all my positive energy is being channeled her way!


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Zig,
How's Poop doing this morning? My thoughts and prayers to both of you.
Daryl


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Well, Poop made it through the night. Ellen and Zoo Keeper called and talke me through what to do. I cleaned Poop's wound up with some diluted Hydrogen Peroxide and put her in a wire cage in the kitchen on top of towels with a heating pad underneath set on low. I put water and seed in there with her, but I don't think she touched it last night. This morning I gave her a little better once over. the wound on her chest/breast is pretty nasty, it goes from side to side and is at least as long as your thumb. I cleaned it up again with some fresh H2O2 and pushed the skin closed as much as possible. Thank goodness she didn't tare her crop open. She was pretty mellow when I picked her up this morning, but more active that last night and kicked her feet a bit... so I don't think there are any broken legs... and her wings are fine, but what ever she hit she must have hit it hard because you can really see where she's bruised now and she doesn't really want to sand / perch, she just lays on her belly/breast like they do when they're really relaxed or on a nest or something.

I refreshed her water with antibiotics in it an made sure her seed cup was close and fluffed her towels. I have to go to work now and I hope she does fine.

Ellen, Tanya, thanks again SOOOooo much for calling last night.


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## nabisho (Nov 18, 2004)

*Never thought I'd be praying for Poop*

but it sounds like she needs all the help she can get. Hope she can recover.

NAB


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

*a bit of medical info*

I was reviewing the post here and I thought I might share a bit of medical insight that I have learned from my many years of ER experience. With big or deep wounds, triple antibiotic is not exactly the drug of choice. Many of the triple antibiotics are Vaseline based, these types of things are fine for small scratches, wounds that have been sutured closed, or scuffs to the skin. When wounds have muscle, fat, bone exposed ... in other words, large or deep wounds, triple antibiotics are not the best choice. When you apply Vaseline based creams they are a nice medium for bacteria to grow. Bacteria likes warm moist places. With deep wounds there is plenty of drainage, there can be large flaps of skin which is just perfect for bacteria, then you add a bit of Vaseline based cream over it, and the bacteria is sealed in. Vaseline also never dries so it is an excellent material for picking up things and allowing it to stick to a wound.

In the ER we clean large and deep wounds with diluted iodine or diluted peroxide, or just plain normal saline. When wounds are sutured closed we will apply a triple antibiotic, when wounds are large that are not able to be sutured closed, they are cleaned and covered with a dressing. On birds it would be very difficult to apply dressing so cleaning the wound and keeping the bird on clean surfaces will accomplish the same.

Another thing I have noticed is that feathers tend to stick to wounds. These feathers are once again a nice source of collecting drainage and can lead to bacterial growth. My own personal experience with this is to pluck away all the feathers that can stick to the large wounds which in turn helps keep the area clean. I think the best thing for injuries is to avoid a secondary infection so the bird does not have to fight two problems ... a wound and an infection. Without a secondary infection all energy can be directed towards the healing of the injury.

Epsom salts baths are also good for injuries. Epsom salt are very relaxing to sore and bruised muscles. Epsom salts bath also help to clean wounds without causing harm to the birds and aid in drawing out unwanted poisons/bacteria. 

Lastly I have noted that not all birds like to eat when they are out of their natural environment. With proper wound care being done, I have noticed that it is fine to let a bird out to its natural loft long enough to eat. I have noted that birds will eat better when they are in the area they are used to eating in. It is like the older folks ... take them away from the environment they are used to and they can be come disoriented, and when they go home they are fine again. When taking a bird out to the loft, let it eat then take it back in for its wound care and put it back into it clean cage. Wound care needs to be done twice to three time a day, just as pigeons are usually feed. It seems to work well if you let them out to eat, then do the wound care. Eating is very important for healing. The body requires protein for healing and if the birds are not eating well, healing can be delayed. Carbohydrates are also important for healing/energy. If birds are not eating well, try boiling some rice and feeding the water off the rice. This water is full of carbohydrates. 

OK these are just some of my experiences from my medical life that can carry over to birds.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Thanks much ZK. I was thinking of giving her an epson salts bath in a couple of days after the wound heals more.

I went home on my way back from lunch and looked in on her... she's still with us... still seems alert, but still laying down, but but she moved over closer to her water so I'm hoping she drank some while I was gone... but it doesn't look like she touched an seed. I put another seed dish in there with her right next to her. I'll try to take her out into the loft tonight when I get home and after I let the fliers out (if the wx is good) and clean up, I'll take a towel to put her on and put her next to the feed dishes in the loft and back off and see what she does; maybe she'll want to eat more in her own environment (loft) like you said.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

*Wednesday, 6 April 05*

Well, ol'Poop is still with us this morning. When I came down today, she
was up and walking around her cage in the kitchen a bit, looking out
towards the sliding glass door from the kitchen into the loft at her
buddies. She was moving better thins morning then yesterday and when I
went to take her out to rotate her towels, give her fresh medicated water
(amoxicillin sp?) she moved to the back of the cage and I had to half
carwl in to get her out so I could clean her up. Man she's cut bad. :-( 
I wish I had been able to stich her up the when it was fresh.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Zig, 

Thanks for the update on poor Poop. Sure hope you can fix her up as good as new. Have you got any type of dressing or bandage on this wound? What's holding the gash together?


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Zig,
> 
> Thanks for the update on poor Poop. Sure hope you can fix her up as good as new. Have you got any type of dressing or bandage on this wound? What's holding the gash together?


The advice I've gotten is to let it heal from the inside out and a dressing / bandage isn't necessary; just clean it twice daily with 50/50 solution H20 and H2O2. Hindsite being 20/20 though, I wish I would have had a suecher (sp?) kit on hand last Monday night.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Zig, She either makes it or not, but I think just keeping it well cleaned and dry is the way to go. That, and suturing a wound on a pigeon is tough to do, even if done by a vet. The skin is so thin, and sutures can tear out very easily, more damage, more bleeding, more pain. Having held a pigeon while it was being repaired, and not knowing if I was going to pass out or throw up, I must say I wouldn't put a bird through that again, and would let it heal naturally.
daryl
I am so glad that little bird is still live and kicking.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Zig,

Sincere best wishes that Poop is doing well this evening and will continue to improve.

Linda


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Wednesday evening after work... She was moving around better yesterday /
last night and looked like she had been into her feed a bit. I put some
crushed peanuts in with her seed to get her going. I saw her drink some
too. I cleaned her up after taking her out into the loft for a bit to
visit with her buddies. She moved around more, but didn't seem interested
in the feed & water out there. I had to stand guard over her again to
keep Gonzo, Speedy and BigBird away from her... she's not moving fast and
is still huntched over a bit so it looks like she's "presenting" and they
try to top her! Damn boy-birds, they find a woman that can't run and they
try to... errr... well, ya know. She was looking up at the perches a few
tims with that look on thier face they get before they take flight and she
tried to fly once or twice and didn't make it off the ground. :-( 
Anyway, I took her back inside and when I cleaned her up I trimed some
more of the feathers from around the wound too.

Thursday morning... Poop is still with us. She seems to be standing
better, but when I cleaned her wound this morning, there was some
drainage. :-( Maybe I cleaned too much last night and opened it up a bit
is what I was thinking? I trimmed somemore of the feathers from around
the wound and tried to not handle her too much.

I sure hope she makes it, but the wound is large. Its starting to get
"crusty" where the tissue which should be under the skin is exposed.

Poor thing, I don't want her to die, but at least she's being cared for
and not outside lost somewhere. I doubt she'd still be alive now if she
hadn't been found Monday night.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

*Friday 0830*

Poop is still with us. She ate some this morning and is preening now. I
haven't checked her yet this morning as I'm going to offer her a bath
after I get the loft cleaned up and I figure that will suffice.


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

She's a strong girl! Poop's still getting plenty of prayers and positive energy sent her way for a speedy recovery.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Zig, 

...For the daily updates on Poop. I really hope she will heal well and fast. You're doing a great job looking after her best interests and needs. Maybe, once she's recovered, she should be "retired" from flying and live in the lap of luxury in your loft


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

I've been wondering too if she'll ever be able to fly free agian?

Anyway, she's still alive. Healing slowly, but healing.


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

It's good to hear still with us and on the mend! I'm with Brad, after this horrific event I'd just let her live the sweet life indoors  But that's only up to you and Poop to decide. Who knows, she just might suprise you and not want to venture outdoors anymore.
Thanks for the update!


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## kooper (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm sorry about what happened to your bird. I had a bird that was attacked by a cooper hawk. The hawk grabbed her in flight but she was lucky enough to struggle and get away. When she returned the back her neck was ripped. I didn't know what to do but hoped for the best. My brother keep on telling me to put her down but I refused. I never gave up on her and now she will better, all heal and healthy. Don't give up on her, after what she has been through. I hope your bird gets better and heals. May the all my wishes and prays help her.

Kooper


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Poop is still hanging in there. I took her out into the loft again tonight after I cleaned up. She hung out and drank and ate a little, but mostly spent her time picking at grit.

She tried to fly a couple of times, would make it up about a foot, mabye a foot and a half and plop back down...  

I brought her in and cleaned up her wound. A bit of drainage. The edges are pink and look like they're closing a bit, but I hope its not a sign of infection.

I've been giving her Amoxicillian in her water since she was hurt, but the insructions say to administer for 5 to 7 days... today/tomorrow will be 7 days. I'm not sure if I should take her off the anti-biotics tomorrow or not???


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Zig, 

Just a word of caution here. While Poop is recovering it would probably be best if she was kept very calm and confined to a small pen. Trying to fly and falling back down might possibly cause her wound to split open again or slow down the healing process. Glad to hear she's still doing well though.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Zig,

I'd keep Poop on the Amoxy for another few days .. especially since she is being dosed in her drinking water. You can't be sure that she is getting or has gotten enough of the drug for it to be effective.

I ditto Brad's comments .. Poop needs to be kept fairly quiet for a bit longer. Once that huge wound has healed she will need a good amount of physical therapy to get back in shape. There will be scabs and scar tissue which need to get loosened up and muscles to be gotten back in shape.

Terry


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

*How's Poop doing?*

It's been some time since you've updated us on Poop, how's she doing? I hope all is well and she's healing up nicely!


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

et all,

Poop is still alive and healing. I still keep her inside at night and during the day when I'm gone in a wire crate, but I let her out into the loft when I get home. She's healing, but slowly. She was really cut bad I suppose, I should have posted some pictures. I still have her on antibiotics, but that will be done with the day after tomorrow. I think after that, I'll let her out in the loft all the time; we'll see. I'm glad she has survived and it looks like she'll continue to do so. I don't know if she'll ever fly free again, but if she does it will still be awhile as she has to totally heal and feather back up.


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## PidgePidge (May 14, 2003)

I'm very glad Poop is doing better. She sounds like a fighter!

I have a question for Zookeeper or whoever else might know. I found Zookeeper's posting on medical care really interesting. Regarding caloric intake during healing--if a bird isn't eating and/or drinking, would it ever be appropriate to force feed with rice water or perhaps sugar water, through a syringe with the needle off, putting the liquid at the back of their throat I would guess? Or is the stress of force feeding worse for the bird than getting the water and energy? Just curious in case I'm even in a situation where I need to know...

Best of luck with Poop! I hope she continues to heal!!!

Thanks,
Jill


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi PidgePidge,

Others may feel differently, but if I see that a bird is emaciated in appearance,
I do force feed, as I think the condition is part and parcel of their ability to heal. If it is a bird who has been in your care all along and you feel that a 
"starve a cold" approach is warranted, than that would be different.

Before I learned how to crop administer, I made a thickish puree, and put some l
@ back of mouth w/a dropper, allowing them to do the swallowing. But now, I 
am able to put in crop. You do need to take care that you don't over do the 
crop feeding, as food amount is determined by weight. Since I am not set up
to weigh, then I underfeed. If a living thing goes into a starvation mode then
I figure you have to get the system back up and running so that it wants the 
food. That's a slow process, can't just sit down to a five course meal after
not eating for a while, but the body needs to start regulating itself again, slowly through getting stabilized with food that is digestable easily. Again,
in amounts appropriate to weight. In my experience, which is not as great
as many here, it seems to jump start them and they kick in on their own in a 
short while.

fp

fp


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

Hi Zig,
I'm just checking in to see how Poop is coming along, I'm hoping all is well.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I am curious wat happened to the bird as well.

elvis


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Hello all. Sorry for the lack of updates on Poop.

She is doing fine. She's been back out in the loft now since last Saturday. She's still got a scab over a bit of her wound, but she's healing fine and seems much happier and eating more now that she's back with her buddies.


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

That's great!!!!  She had me and I'm sure everyone else worried there for a bit! I'm just tickled pink she's going to be fine!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so glad to hear she recovered, Zig. But I'm not entirely surprised--pigeons are incredibly tough and survive injuries that would doom most birds.


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