# Help with training strong winged young birds



## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Due to lots of rain and wind we have been having here in CA. I have a flock of Young Hommers that are at this point strong winged they should have been flying two weeks ago but at this point I only have them trapping. What advice can you give me that will help me get as many back as possible when I let them fly this weekend.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If they have spent time out in a aviary and are trap trained. I would think on letting the younger of the group out the first time then when they trap put the older group out. DO not jump them up but let them sit or what ever they do and can only hope for the best. But I think for the most part its not to late.


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi, when you say they are strong winged do you mean that you had them out already? if you haven't yet, maybe this will be some help. first keep them a little hungry and let the young out do not chase them and let them bum alittle in your yard for about a half to an hour they will take off on their own. if you let them out with the older birds they tend to fly off or land out of sight because the older birds took them to far out, not that they will not come back. i like to let my young out just before dark and let them just get use to the out side put the feed in the loft if they buck in right away that's ok. then the next day alittle bit earlier. that's how i do it and it seems to work for me. yes i loose a few but doing it just before dark they will land for the night at a short distance from the loft, then have all day to travel miles from the loft maybe never to return. like i said that's the way i do it hopefully others can give you other advice.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Make sure the youngsters are hungry hold the feeding prior to letting them out so they are good and hungry, also I am assuming that you have trap trained them to a whistle or a shake of a can so they associate going through the trap when they hear you dump food, make sure the weather is clear, try to make sure everything is calm and nothing spooks them when they are out for the first couple of times. Do not chase them out, let them go out on their own. You may loose a couple of them, you will notice without the cover they are a little scared, don't force them to do anything let them go slow and check things out, chances are they will be scared and some will run back into their loft due to being scared, just go slow and be patient with them for a little bit, don't force anything. 

Where in California are you located?

Please give us a update also of how things are going.

Ellen
www.relofts.com


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

They are all the same age so is it best to take some is a cage from say 10 feet away and let them sit for an hour or so looking at the loft then let them go? Or better to just let them out of the aviary?


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

relofts said:


> Make sure the youngsters are hungry hold the feeding the night before, also I am assuming that you have trap trained them to a whistle or a shake of a can so they associate going through the trap when they hear you dump food, make sure the weather is clear, try to make sure everything is calm and nothing spooks them when they are out for the first couple of times. Do not chase them out, let them go out on their own. You may loose a couple of them, you will notice without the cover they are a little scared, don't force them to do anything let them go slow and check things out, chances are they will be scared and some will run back into their loft due to being scared, just go slow and be patient with them for a little bit, don't force anything.
> 
> Where in California are you located?
> 
> ...


Yes they are trap trained to a whistle. Should I let all them go at once or in groups? If in groups how do I tell them apart to know who has flown or not?
Also Thanks for all the help I live in Santa Barbara


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Ok its near april so 06 birds would range from say 6 weeks to 3 months old if they are flying age. I would let the younger ones out first let them just sit . Then after they trap let the older group out. That way the older onesdo not get the younger ones up in the air as easy. If the take to the wing. And do do this befor you feed. you can set them out on the landing board. some may just trap right back in.


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

you could always soap their wings down too. litterally dishsoap diluted on the last flight feathers. (i believe i did last five last time) basically you make the feather like a long pin feather. that way they cant get much air lift. i can not use this since my loft is so close to my neighbor's fense that if one went over i would have trouble hehe.

i have even heard of people cutting back some of the flight feathers... but if these are racing pigeons then you would have to wait for them to molt those feathers

otherwise you have gotten good suggestions about time of day and all.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SB_doves said:


> They are all the same age so is it best to take some is a cage from say 10 feet away and let them sit for an hour or so looking at the loft then let them go? Or better to just let them out of the aviary?


Absolutely do not train them from a basket at this point, you need to have them on the landing board and knowing to be there without the settling cage on, they need to get used to the freedom, their wings, and the trapping, once this is mastered then you can think about the basket training, but wait until after the first few steps I have mentioned, normally the training basket doesn't come in until after your birds are flying good, starting to range out of sight, then you start training them to the basket and releases.

Ellen


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SB_doves said:


> Yes they are trap trained to a whistle. Should I let all them go at once or in groups? If in groups how do I tell them apart to know who has flown or not?
> Also Thanks for all the help I live in Santa Barbara


I am not sure of your setup so I will try to explain from my setup, my birds can go into their avery where they can then go to the landing board, when they are being trained I have a settling cage that fits on my landing board, my settling cage is the same length as my landing board which is 3 feet, it is made of pvc pipes so it is light weight, I use the plastic chicken fencing and connect it on with tie strips, it has a top, sides, and front, it slides against the loft and sits on the board so when it is in place it creats a complete boxed in section and with the plastic chicken fencing they are able to see around the area and they are only able to get back into the loft via the traps, once the birds are used to the trap the settling cage comes off prior to me letting them into the avery, remember no sudden movements, then after the settling cage is moved away the birds are allowed to go out onto the landing board, we do not spook them, we do not do anything but stand and watch and hope no predators or loud bangs happen, we do not control how many come out, we do not push them out, we always do this a couple of hours before dark so that they are hungry and they know that bed time is soon, don't attempt to do anything that will spook them the first couple of times out, just let them do what they will do, like I said it is a chance you may loose a couple but be very careful to try to keep things calm. It doesn't matter who has flown or not flown at first they will all be up flying soon enough.

I have a friend that lives near you actually a couple of them I think I will see exactly where they are have you talked with any of the local club people there?

I am in the Central Valley.



Ellen


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## Jiggs (Apr 1, 2005)

I always let my young birds sit on the landing board for their first flight I believe that will make them know that this is where they eventuallt must come back to.

They should sit there for a while and take to a rooftop to have a good long look around. I also do not force them to fly. I dont think your birds are too old either. They could dissapear for a day or two but should come back!


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Jiggs said:


> I always let my young birds sit on the landing board for their first flight I believe that will make them know that this is where they eventuallt must come back to.
> 
> They should sit there for a while and take to a rooftop to have a good long look around. I also do not force them to fly. I dont think your birds are too old either. They could dissapear for a day or two but should come back!



Yes, I totally agree with this, you will find that most pigeon flyers/racers will agree with this, you need to not be worried about pushing them at all to start, that comes later after they have learned to fly and then it is done to exercise them and teach them not to just mosey around.

Ellen


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

i believe when the poster was talking about placing them in a basket, that they were not infact talking about releasing them. simply using the basket to help them see the world around. this is not a bad idea. some people resettle birds from another loft to their new one. it gives the bird the oppertunity to see more than they could on the landing board avairy


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Symbro said:


> i believe when the poster was talking about placing them in a basket, that they were not infact talking about releasing them. simply using the basket to help them see the world around. this is not a bad idea. some people resettle birds from another loft to their new one. it gives the bird the oppertunity to see more than they could on the landing board avairy


The poster could have meant that but I read it as they would be released from the training basket to the board, this I feel strongly against. Also you will find that most experience pigeon racers will not even put their birds in a training basket until they have started to loft fly, adding undue stress to the birds is just not needed, if you start adding stress to eveything else you could cause other issues with your birds such as canker the weaning process alone is alot of stress, the birds are not ready to go into a training basket until they have experienced trapping, flying, and landing, once this has been accomplished and they feel confident then move to the next step, if you have a chance to watch the video on the light system by CBS you will see also that this is their practice as well as many other's. The birds will see what they need from the landing board in my opinion and it sounds like the birds have had plenty of time to do this already, of course this is my opinion.

By the way I wanted to add that when our young birds are weaned they are given a preventative for canker, they are vacinated for PMV, and they are vacinated for Paratyphoid and Salmonella, and treated for any parasites, this is done before they ever go into their loft at weaning.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Symbro said:


> i believe when the poster was talking about placing them in a basket, that they were not infact talking about releasing them. simply using the basket to help them see the world around. this is not a bad idea. some people resettle birds from another loft to their new one. it gives the bird the oppertunity to see more than they could on the landing board avairy


Yes bingo that is what i was talking about.


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## Jiggs (Apr 1, 2005)

Well I supose it would work but I will still use the landing board when they are to be tarined as if you look at their actions the following should happen.

1. a couple of hops a few feet into the air
2. the first trips is ussually around the yard back to the landing board (as it would do in the wild back to its nest)
3. a short flight up to the rooftop where it will stay for a long while looking around and back to the landing board.

I believe that that flight is the most important as that is where it would gain its most important information as to where it stays and that is from above the loft seeing the place around.

If you put it in a basket and move it a few feet away from the loft I dont believe that it would work because what is the bird actually looking at - would it know what the outside of the loft looks like? Would tehre be a difference in putting the basket outside your loft or a loft miles away??

I would have to say the bird would have to fly from the landing board and come back to it to "learn" where it stays and leave the landing board for a high advantage point.

BUT that is only my opinion


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## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I have had the same problem with the training the strong winged birds. I had a few babies over the winter and couldn't let them out due to hawks and weather. When training finally came I made a few mistakes and it cost me a few. 
I agree with the others on the idea that you should NOT let the young birds out with the older birds until they have "routed" a few times around the loft--then I'll let the young and older ones out together to fly around the yard. That was my first mistake--the older birds may take them too far and then they are gone because they don't know the area well enough. 
When I start jumping them I usually put one more experienced bird with the group.
Also, take care not to scare them off the board when you first let them out--if they spend a day sitting on the loft or landing board the better chance they have of returning when they do take flight. 
I have about 4 birds now that are ready--and the weather is not helping the cause. Hopefully, this weekend I can get them out. 
Good Luck!


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*Update*

Finaly no rain on Thursday so I set 23 Birds free for the first time. They stayed in my back yard and picked at the ground for some time until one of my children spooked them. Off they flew some circled some just took off. Last night at dark I had a count of 14 that came back into the loft not too bad I thought same count this morning just went down to give them dinner and now there are 23 one missing not too bad.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

If your calculations are correct that you put on here I think you have them all home, and that is very good. Yes you do have to be careful to not let them get spooked, it will definately cause some anxiety attacks, been there done that and now it is just a fact that if anyone or anything messes around when my birds out for the first time I can't take it, it is ok later but just not during those first couple of lessons.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Great I am going to try to get them out agian today if the weather starts to look better. Or do you think that's too soon.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

You should get them out every day if possible. 

When they get good and are loft flying well you can let them out in the morning and again in the evening before feedings, have them trapping for their breakfast and dinner.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Great if I can get it to stop raining thanks for all your help.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*Update*

Wed APRIL 12th No rain today let my youngsters out for the 4th time most just flew onto the loft roof and hung out. I later blew the dinner whistle. They all trapped back at dinner no one missed it this time. My question is they don't seem to want to fly and check out the hood anymore just are happy staying close to the loft. Should I be getting ready to basket train them or just keep on letting them hang out in the yard and on the loft. Thanks for all the help.


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

time...

also less hungry...

but mostly time... sooner or later one bird will be brave and fly up... then two or three more... next thing you know they are all in the air flying all different directions.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Count your blessings as things appear to be going very well so far, give them time to learn, as was already stated they will start to fly around and then the worry will start at first but they will soon become pros at flying, the basket doesn't need to be used until they have learned to group and they start to range a little ways, try not to get in to much of a hurry with them as it is easy to do when you first get going, you have to have patients with them and let them go through the steps, if you want you can give them a 1/4 feeding about half hour prior to letting them out this way they will not be so hungry, it sounds like you may have them a little to light on the feedings as they are all waiting around for that feed to go in, but this is only their fourth time out and I wouldn't expect them to really start getting air to much before this anyway but it will be soon. 

How have you got your feedings setup, when you feed at their regular feedings there should be enough feed so that they all get to eat, when you see that most birds are going for water and there may be just a couple left nibbling and there isn't much feed left in the feeder then you have it about right, you can also add a little barley to the feeder to help with setting up the feedings, barley is a very light feed and makes it easy to judge your feeding amounts, if the birds are cleaning up the barley in the feed you are under feeding, if they are leaving a little of the barley and cleaning up everything else then you are about right, if they are leaving all the barley and maybe some other things then you are over feeding. Also so you know the barley I am talking about is human grade barley, widely used for brewing beer but is sold in feed stores for pigeons, it is not rolled it is whole barley.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks yes your right I need to slow down I was able to get them out this morning before breakfast most just went to the loft roof while about 6 or 7 went out and flew the hood for awile. I am feeding twice a day I would say about 16oz for 23 birds they finish in about 15 min or so.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

It actually sounds like you are feeding enough, just when you are feeding take notice that when the birds start going for water that you still see a little feed still in the feeder, not a lot but just a little so you know that they are getting enough, if the feeder is empty and the birds are still looking then you need to feed more, watch your birds closely and get to know them this will be your biggest success.

Now I have a question for you, you said the Hood, are you in Washington on the Hood Canal? If so you are in my old neck of the woods, who are you flying with as I know many of the people there, we used to fly from McCleary, Washington with the Olympia Club and moved here to California but stay in touch with many there, I also was doing the Puget Sound website for them and Loretta just took it over, it will be good to know where you are at because I will be able to help you a little better knowing the weather there, I should have figured it out when you were talking about the rain there all the time.... 

Are you getting your feed at Tradewinds there in Tacoma and if so are you using their Blue Ribbon Mix as that is the best for your race conditions there, if you are in Washington.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Sorry I just dropped hood as in neighborhood just a little slang out here in CA Santa Barbara not really a hood per say.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

You know what I think I knew that you told me that before, okay now that it has been clarified again I am back on track, thanks, go ahead with the feedings as described watching and learning your birds feeding behavior as described, and the barley works great for helping with this, I need to go back through and read the notes we have written so far, let us know how the feedings are going and when they actually start to test their skills. 

Are you also still breeding and adding young to your flock?

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Yes I plan on breeding this winter using some hens and Cocks from this flock. When I built my loft I made a seprate breeding section so I could do that. Thanks for all your help I guess things have really been going very good with this flock. I am not sure how when the time comes to start basket training them I will catch them? They are eating out of my hand with no problem so I guess food will do it.


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

basket them at night the night before you plan to take them out. it is ok to let the sit in the basket over night and release them in the morning. this is also a good way to get them ready for the trip to the release site on race day.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Symbro said:


> basket them at night the night before you plan to take them out. it is ok to let the sit in the basket over night and release them in the morning. this is also a good way to get them ready for the trip to the release site on race day.


Symbro,

You need to try to take this at a slower pace, I don't think that SB_doves is no where near being ready for basketing at this time, although in the close future it will be time, to much to soon causes some people to try and rush things a little to fast and then there will be a more likely chance of making mistakes and will cause a lot of frustration in the new flyers. 

Although you did bring up a good point of basketing at night time when the time comes, I have done the basketing at night and if you plan on getting a early start out so that the birds can go up at day break that is good and it also makes it easier to catch the birds if you do it in the dark it is like picking pigeons off a vine and it goes pretty quickly, I have now found that I don't have to basket my birds at night, I use a net that is made for avery birds for the larger parrots, the pigeons are so used to it they will dive into the net when it is coming towards them, I don't know why I worked so hard all these years, this net is great and the birds don't mind it and it takes about 1/4 of the time to catch them.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks yes great I will not rush it I will wait until they are grouping and flying all at once before I start to basket train.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi SB Doves,

Here's a little trick you can try; just remember that you will have to stay outside while the birds are out, as they will be easy targets for the occasional *hawk or cat*.

For older birds who need to be settled into the loft do the following; cut the three longest flights on each wing to half their original length. Then allow the flights to molt out normally. During this time you will be able to let the birds out of the loft, they will have trouble geting airborn in the begining. so you dont have to worry about them flying off of the loft. 

Make sure that whenever you let them outside the loft they are hungry. So if a preditor comes along you can give them the signal for foods ready, and they will hit the traps into the loft for dinner.

Lawman


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

SB_doves said:


> Yes I plan on breeding this winter using some hens and Cocks from this flock. When I built my loft I made a seprate breeding section so I could do that. Thanks for all your help I guess things have really been going very good with this flock. I am not sure how when the time comes to start basket training them I will catch them? They are eating out of my hand with no problem so I guess food will do it.


relofts you need to read posts carefully before replying and expecially before trying to correct someone. i was answering the question at the end of above quote. (note Sb said "when the time comes", not today)

not only that but if you reread my replies to sb's posts you will see that yesterday i said that the birds will fly in "time"... now i am sick and cranky, so do better next time. 

ps i do think you are giving great advise... so please dont stop... just read carefully


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Symbro said:


> relofts you need to read posts carefully before replying and expecially before trying to correct someone. i was answering the question at the end of above quote. (note Sb said "when the time comes", not today)


I am aware that he was talking of later, I do believe personally that while catching the birds at night is sometimes a simpler way of doing things it is also not always the best way, I am taking into consideration the temperatures in the area he lives in as well as this being a team of young birds, taking into account the number of pigeons that he will be able to to put into each of the training baskets at a time to not cause stress and or dehydration during the flight home, I am really trying to go one step at a time and teach him as we go and try for the best possible outcome for his birds. I do agree however that I have a tendency to read between lines and get to what I feel is the important point as you can tell, I skip over parts sometimes figuring we can come back to those when we need to, the birds are coming to him when he is feeding them so I don't see it as a problem right now, I also believe in using a avery net as it takes so little time and the birds are in the crate and ready to go in no time at all and they didn't have to have a restless night sitting in the training crate all night, what can I say I learned old school that you catch your birds by hand and you don't cause any undue stress on them if you want to be successful, now I am a little more modern but still practice some old school techniques.



Symbro said:


> not only that but if you reread my replies to sb's posts you will see that yesterday i said that the birds will fly in "time"... now i am sick and cranky, so do better next time.
> 
> ps i do think you are giving great advise... so please dont stop... just read carefully


I did see that you had stated that sooner or later one bird would take off then two and three and they would all be up, I did actually make mention of this in my post if you check it out it says the following "as was already stated they will start to fly" I didn't miss your post on this subject and I just reinforced your comment as well. 

Thanks for the kind words on my posts, and I do try to read everything I can and I am sorry if you feel I am missing something that you are posting, I feel that I am covering what he is asking. I guess that sometimes what you and I may posts are slightly different but that is good because this gives options to people. 

Sorry you don't feel well, hope it is nothing serious. 

Ellen
www.relofts.com


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks all By the way I am a He Kevin is my name thanks for all the great replys


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Kevin,

Sorry it was a hard call and wasn't sure.... 

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Yes it was a 50-50 thing understand.


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

relofts,
feeling slightly better... wierd little cold. comes and goes.

anyways i have never used a net to catch my birds. would be interesting expecially since my loft is 8feet wide and my arms are only 6 feet... hehe

one of the things i like about catching the birds at night... is that when we send them off for races we catch them the night before and do the whole computer thing at the club loft at which point they are put into group carriers to wait to be driven up and released at daylight. by catching them at night during training you are in a sense training them for the trip to the release site too.
ofcourse this assumes you train in the morning.

yes if we all agreed on how to race and train, then it really wouldnt be a sport would it? hehe

Kevin
how is everything going?


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

by the way... i have a friend who puts his carriers on the ground... taps the ground with a stick and believe it or not... all the birds run into the carrier. takes him minutes to load up hundreds of birds. one of these days i need to figure out how he does that...


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

One way to get them to do that is to feed them in their crates, they learn to go in for food and then it is just a matter of habit after that, I did this a couple of years ago with a team of young birds.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

It's going pretty good finaly today about 15 of 23 took flew off the loft roof and started to circle the house. They are getting very fast once I blow the whistle they trap within a few min or even less very fast. I am trying to weather holding get them out twice a day now before breakfast and dinner.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Hi KEVIN, I have read all the posts here ,and I will give only one piece of advice. That is pick out the one person who's advice you liked the best,and stick to that advice.While for the most part all the advice was good,I believe it is best to work with advice from one mentor. GEORGE SIMON


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

george simon said:


> Hi KEVIN, I have read all the posts here ,and I will give only one piece of advice. That is pick out the one person who's advice you liked the best,and stick to that advice.While for the most part all the advice was good,I believe it is best to work with advice from one mentor. GEORGE SIMON



I think you just gave me the best advice yet thanks George.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Okay they are ready for basket training.


http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/Sb_Doves/


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Great job, 

They look beautiful, I didn't realize that you were doing white pigeons, guess I should have figured by the user name, sounds like you are ready to start your training lessons, just take your time at, looks like you have already had them in the basket to where they can see the loft, after that move them to the front yard if possible if there are no power lines in the way, then move then down to the end of the block, then go a mile, then 2, then 5, then 5 again, if they come good them move them to 10, and then 10 again, then 15 two times, then 25, at 25 if they come good then go to 40, then to 50, then from there out 25 miles out further once you hit 75 miles your birds are ready, keep them tuned up with training tosses, and after a few good tosses then you will want to start doing some double and then some single tosses, and you will need to be consistant with them, if you train hard you will need to keep the pressure up as soon as you let up they will go into a molt, also make sure that when you are training like stated above you are feeding appropriately, increase your fats by using safflower, watch the birds weight and make sure that you are giving them vitamins, also I am sure you have done so I think but if not make sure your birds are vaccinated, if not you will need to do so asap, once these little ones start getting out like this they sometimes are exposed to different diseases so it is very important to also do some preventative treatment.

Please keep us informed of how things are going,

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*Update*

I have done three basket release's and they are coming home great. Then the problem I have two release baskets I load 11 in each at night very easy to catch them. Yesterday when they came home one had his eye closed I am sure he was pecked in the basket. What should I do to keep this from happening???


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

How about loading up the baskets early morning when it is dark? Also, give them more space, if the baskets are small, you might want to invest in a couple more.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

I am using a 15 bird basket with 11 in it I guess I might try the getting up early thing not my first choice but birds need to be trained.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

I would suggest loading the birds prior to training them, this is something that we all face, but the good news is that you have some very active healthy birds that are full of energy and ready to go, they sound like a great team of birds. 

11 birds in a 15 bird carrier is not bad, you also may want to start figuring out which are your hen's and which are the cock birds and put color markers on the legs so they are easier to tell at a glance, put all of the hen's in one basket and the cocks in another, this will cut down on the competition between the birds.

Ellen


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## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I have a "dove" release business and have dealt with the fighting in the basket, too. I finally got two carriers that separates them (I think it is called a widow-hood). I use it when I go on a long toss or if they have to sit around for awhile. My cages and baskets I use for the wedding and funerals are all separated, too--some just by taped in cardboard, so they don't fight. I have this fear of a bird getting injured and not being able to fly during a release when all eyes are watching! If they are going on a short toss I do have a collapsable carrier and 12 can fit in it--they sit in the front seat with me and listen to music which seems to keep them quiet--I can then stick my hand in the middle of a fight if it should occur! (spoiled birds!)


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*Update May 13th*

Okay I think I fixed the fighting problem I still have been putting then in the basket at night but I now put them in the pitch black hallway of the loft that stays dark. Last night I had a friend come over and we sexed the entire team of 22 I put a pink band on the hens and Black for the cocks. Out of 22 I have only seven Cocks the rest are hens. The fog was been so heavy in the mornings I was horried about doing releases in it but took them anyway this morning on there first longer toss it was a good mile and a half with thick fog. About five min after I got home here they came landing on my roof at my house I wistled them in for breakfast and did a count 21 1 missing. The last one came back almost 4 hours late. I will do the next toss from the same 1.5 miles should I move to 3 or 5 miles next?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

I would go a head and take them to the 3 mile marker one time, check the one that came in late today and make sure that it is not lite, that it's flights are all ok, check it's throat for signs of canker, and also look at the slit in the mouth if it is wide open then let me know and don't send it, if all checks out ok then go a head and take it as well, watch for the one that came in late today and see if it is late again and let me know please. The 5 minutes to fly the 1.5 miles is ok, what you will find is happening if you were to follow them you will find that this is such a short drop that they are going out messing around but that is ok to start as it is a confidence booster, when the work comes in they will come straight home with out any delays, it is part of the training phase.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks Ellen,

I am taking off in the morning for a few days will be back Wed and will post an update soon. Wed morn I will do the same 1.5 toss then Thurs I will hit the 3 mile toss. Should I go in a differnt direction such as south and not west??


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

For now just go in the one direction to get them started, later after they have mastered the ability to know what they are supposed to do and they are good at it, you can take them in different directions as some believe that this keeps them thinking instead of them falling into a routine, but again I believe that you need to have some experience behind them first.

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

george simon said:


> Hi KEVIN, I have read all the posts here ,and I will give only one piece of advice. That is pick out the one person who's advice you liked the best,and stick to that advice.While for the most part all the advice was good,I believe it is best to work with advice from one mentor. GEORGE SIMON


 Good point George. 

Nothing can make your head spin faster, then trying to follow the instructions from several people at once. Good, bad, or indifferent, I believe that learning one system or method well, is much better then mixing up a little of this and that.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*1.5 Mile toss*

Did another 1.5 mile toss yesterday this time I went a block or two further becase it was more wide open for them to fly. 7am let the first basket of 11 go 7:10 let the second go. I went home and waited nothing 9am still nothing 10am 13 came back into the loft. Then latter in the afternoon 7 more at differnt times came in. As of this morning I am short two birds so I did not do a toss this morning. I will take them Friday morn to the same release point and try the same toss. Ellen any thoughts??


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Yes, take them out further it is to close and they are going out messing around and getting them self into trouble, go to 5 miles and release them all together in a group until they are all trained out, if it is clear you should be able to watch to see where they are going see if they are starting out in the right direction or if they are going the wrong way, you need to keep them thinking and not to easy on them so they know they have to use their natural abilities, also keep an eye on the K Factors when you are going to make sure the electro magnetic fields are not in the red as some believe this interfers with their homing ability, use this link to watch the k factors http://www.sec.noaa.gov/rt_plots/kp_3d.html as long as it is in the green you are ok.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

This is a dumb question but is thick fog a problem?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Yes, it does, you shouldn't release the birds in thick fog where they can't visualize some sort of a point at first they recognize and in addition the birds could hit something going up due to the lack of ability to see wires and such. 

Rule of thumb is make sure you have a little sun prior to release, never release the birds in rain, electrical storms, or fog as they need the sun to assist with their directions, always release birds so they have plenty of time to get home before the sun goes down, it doesn't have to be full sun but the sun needs to be peaking through. In Washington we called them sun breaks or cloud breaks and the birds were never released unless we had those conditions.

Ellen


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

I also wanted to say that if the birds are ever released and rain or a storm is expected then the birds first choice is not to go through it, the birds will try to fly around such conditions and will often get their self in trouble doing this, so it is best to have optimal conditions when releasing and always watch the weather between the release point and home. 

Electrical storms will cause havoc on their homing ability and so it is never suggested that the birds be released when ever electrical storms are expected, you could loose birds right off your loft if you fly them with a electrical storm near by.

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

relofts said:


> Yes, take them out further it is to close and they are going out messing around and getting them self into trouble, go to 5 miles and release them all together in a group until they are all trained out, if it is clear you should be able to watch to see where they are going see if they are starting out in the right direction or if they are going the wrong way, you need to keep them thinking and not to easy on them so they know they have to use their natural abilities, also keep an eye on the K Factors when you are going to make sure the electro magnetic fields are not in the red as some believe this interfers with their homing ability, use this link to watch the k factors http://www.sec.noaa.gov/rt_plots/kp_3d.html as long as it is in the green you are ok.
> 
> Ellen


Wow Ellen ! 

Does today look bad or what !?  http://www.sec.noaa.gov/rt_plots/kp_3d.html Have you followed this K factor thing long enough to believe it really makes a difference ?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Wow Ellen !
> 
> Does today look bad or what !?  http://www.sec.noaa.gov/rt_plots/kp_3d.html Have you followed this K factor thing long enough to believe it really makes a difference ?


Warren,

There was a time when I lived by the K Factors especially in Washington and yes I did notice a difference, and yes it looks to be very bad from 3:00 pm to 6:00 pm today so I will probably not be letting my young birds out this afternoon to play it on the safe side of things. Have you done much with the study on K-Factors?

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Quite honestly no I have not. I was reminded of the days when fanciers thought that color tv caused homing problems, and then it was the space launches to the moon that caused birds to get lost. Then in recent years, it was cell phones, so I thought this K factor was just another reason to explain losses.

Perhaps we really have a tool now, would be nice if it were that easy.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Quite honestly no I have not. I was reminded of the days when fanciers thought that color tv caused homing problems, and then it was the space launches to the moon that caused birds to get lost. Then in recent years, it was cell phones, so I thought this K factor was just another reason to explain losses.
> 
> Perhaps we really have a tool now, would be nice if it were that easy.


The K-Factors have been being used in Washington for at least the past 8 years or so that I know of and also by some fanciers in California, there are those that will not release birds under such conditions as it does seem to have some effect on them, when the K-factors are in the red this tells us that the electro magnetic fields are very high and with the theory that electrical storms, electro magnetics in the atmospher causes the homing or other wise known as the little electro compas in a pigeon to be off then it was decided that the k-factors may very well play a very big part in the loss of pigeons. 

The best thing I can suggest is to watch the k-factors and test your pigeons abilities during the different phases to see what you find out, I have seen massive losses for no explained reason in elevated k-factors so I think there is something to it personally.

Sounds like you have homework to do, looking forward to hearing your conclusion. 

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*No fog yeah*

Great no fog all clear I took the team for a 5 mile toss this morning. I returned home and went out on the back deck I have a great view of the city as I live in the hills. Anyway I can see the team from miles away they drifted to the right about 2 miles past my house then circled back and came in took about 14 to 17 min. Now for another problem I have 8 young birds that are just old enough to release I let them out Friday and they went everywhere. Then came back and landed on my chimny. It's been 4 days now and 5 are still not wanting to come in any thoughts Ellen? I let my team out and they fly with them but don't want to come in with them.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

The 5 that are not wanting to come back in see if you can lure them back in, you may have to spook them up off the house to get them up, normally they will get tired of being up there and come down on their own but 4 days is a to long, you can put a really young bird with feathers out that isn't ready to fly yet and put a little feed in a bowl on the landing board prior to doing this and a water pan make sure to rattle your can when you put the feed in the bowl so they see you, also if you have no youngster you can rubber-band the flights of one so that it must stay on the board, make sure to use the little rubber-bands and catch the last 5 flights on the wings, do both wings so that you are sure it can't fly, I would do this with one you don't plan on flying so that you get familiar with how to do it. You may even have to get them air-born and put a couple of youngsters out with them that already know what they are supposed to do to help them figure it out, you are going to need to play it as it goes to see how they react to what you are doing, I have went as far as to net them at night with ones that just refuse and had to go back to square one with them in training.

Do you have a settling cage for them by any chance, I would get them back on the landing board in a settling cage for a couple of days. Let your team out to fly keeping them in, once the team has came in then take the problem children and put them in the settling cage and don't allow them breakfast or dinner until the have trapped in for it, do this for a couple of days and then try again, they will have to be allowed to catch up to the team once they have figured out the trapping part of things, put them out a couple of times by their self so you know that they are ready to fly, once they are ready to fly then go ahead and let them out to fly with the team, anytime you are dealing with late hatches it makes it a little harder on you and they will hold the rest of the team back until they catch up, good thing is that when they are up and flying with the team then when you get them out training the rest of the team will show them how to get home until they understand what they need to do. Late hatches can be very good racers also so don't let the little extra work get you down, I put a 8 month old late hatch in a race as a yearling against the entire combine with old birds and yearlings and she won them all, they can be fantastic birds also they just take a little extra work.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks yes that was me last night with my latter and net trying to catch them I can't reach them they are just too high. When I let the team fly before dinner they join them and fly with them. Yesterday the 7 youngsters landed on the loft roof and I thought for sure they would all trap in but only two did. The 5 others went back up to the high on the roof and spent the night. Should I push the team further out for tomarrow or do the 5 mile agian?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Yes you need to take them a little further out, they are doing fine, also this time when you let the team out spook the birds off the roof and stand near the house with a broom or leaf rake or tennis balls work and scare them back up if they try to land on the roof, try to keep them from landing there so they understand they need to go back to the loft where the other birds are.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Yes I thought about that I just was thinking I may spook them off and lose them but I will try that.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Just keep in mind when you are training to keep moving them out as long as they are coming good, you can do a double release at the same place if they have a problem but what you have said so far doesn't sound like a problem on this last toss, just experience needed to know to go right home, they will start spending less time out messing around as you move out further, they are starting now to understand what they are supposed to be doing, make sure the weight on them is good also, you can adjust the feed according to how they feel.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Is there any reason I should let them go at two differnt times since I am useing two baskets? Or just let them all fly at once?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SB_doves said:


> Yes I thought about that I just was thinking I may spook them off and lose them but I will try that.


You should be ok if you do it while the other birds are out and just coming in, they are stuborn little creatures but they will return to their flock, staying out all the time is a greater risk to them and also the longer they stay out the more chance of them going back into the loft and causing health issues, if they start getting stressed you can see signs of canker which can be passed onto the other birds when they do decide to go back in, stress can cause canker to come on in a young bird which is contagious to your other birds so the quicker they get in the better off they are, also the Trich levels can rise which would be another issue, always keep an eye on their droppings and if you notice one that has any white cheesy looking spots in their mouth or on the corners you will need to treat.

Ellen


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

One way of getting them off the house roof is to attach a plastic carrier bag or bin liner to a long fishing rod, if you put that up and the wind catches it, it makes a real clatter and sends them up.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SB_doves said:


> Is there any reason I should let them go at two differnt times since I am useing two baskets? Or just let them all fly at once?


I would let them all up together through this stage of things, they will help each other out for now, later as they get to understand things then you can change that but for now I would continue letting them out together.

Ellen


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

pigeonpoo said:


> One way of getting them off the house roof is to attach a plastic carrier bag or bin liner to a long fishing rod, if you put that up and the wind catches it, it makes a real clatter and sends them up.


This does work well, to get them all up in the air, but I am trying right now to only get the ones on the house up, the team is flying well and I am hoping to not spook them to much and only get the ones from the roof over to the landing board.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

When I was talking of a double release in my post earlier I only meant return to the same release point two times, not to have a double release of your birds, sorry about that I will try to choose my words more carefully, I didn't mean to make it confusing but now reading it I can see where it could be misleading, sorry.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

relofts said:


> When I was talking of a double release in my post earlier I only meant return to the same release point two times, not to have a double release of your birds, sorry about that I will try to choose my words more carefully, I didn't mean to make it confusing but now reading it I can see where it could be misleading, sorry.
> 
> Ellen


Yes I read that twice but I understood.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*5-25*

I took the team out about 2 miles further out to the Beach. I drove straight home and they were sitting on the roof of my house waiting for me. Update on the 8 youngsters that won't come in all but three came in yesterday and the three that didn't spent a good deal of time sitting on the loft. So I hope today the three will come in.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

The birds are doing very good that is great, the furthere they get trained the better they do as long as you don't get to excited and make a big jump on them but I know you are following a good schedule and your team will do great. The others that are out will come in, they are now on the loft which has gotten them that much closer they will come in I am sure, they have to be getting hungry and the temptation will get the best of them soon. They are where you want them now though being on the loft and being able to see the board, it is just a matter of patients and waiting them out, keep me updated on your progress.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Great news the last three of the young ones trapped in this afternoon. I will keep them in and trapping for the next week or so before I let them out.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

I think that if you make them trap for food for 3 or 4 days you will be fine and they will get into the swing of things after that. Sounds as if things are back on track now.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Ellen lots of green poop out of the young ones after being out for that many days. I am giving garlic in there water anything else or just let it run it's course.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SB_doves said:


> lots of green poop out of the young ones after being out for that many days. I am giving garlic in there water anything else or just let it run it's course.


I'm not Ellen, but you can also give them probiotics in their seed and ACV in the water.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

I would go ahead with the probiotics as suggested, the ACV I am not familiar with, I would wait a couple of days to see if it clears up on it's own, the green droppings are being caused by the stress and should clear up in 48 hours after being back on their normal routine, if after a couple of days the droppings are not clearing up then you could put them on a 3 day treatment of ridzol and then follow that with probiotics again, another good product that I like to use is Winsmore which you can get from Jedd's and runs about $5 for a package and it is mixed at 1/2 teaspoon to a gallon of water, it is only vitamins and this will firm up the youngsters droppings very quickly, I really like the product and use it all the time.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*5-30-06*

Yesterday I took them 10 miles came straight home. Today I took the 6 miles in a north direction(first time going north with them) they took an hour to come in. Should I do the same drop agian? Also is it okay to train everyday or should I let them rest and train like three days a week?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SB_doves said:


> Yesterday I took them 10 miles came straight home. Today I took the 6 miles in a north direction(first time going north with them) they took an hour to come in. Should I do the same drop agian? Also is it okay to train everyday or should I let them rest and train like three days a week?



I'm not Ellen either...... and certainly don't mean to jump in because Ellen is giving you excellent advice..........no further than you are training right now, tossing them every day is not a problem. It's great for them. I did read a post earlier about releasing the birds separate. I'll just give you my take on that. If the birds are coming home good, it wouldn't be a bad idea to release the two baskets separately. Trust me, it's just a matter of time before you have a bad toss. It happens to everyone and I guess we mostly suspect hawks scaring them................A couple of years ago, we were training our cocks and hens separately so we would release the hens first, wait about 20 minutes and release the cocks. My husband took them about 40 miles I think and released the hens.....they came in just fine in good time. 20 minutes later he released the cocks,...at 5:00 that afternoon we had 3 cocks back (I think there was about 20 of each sex), a few more came in the next morning and 13 of them NEVER were seen again. I'm not trying to scare you, it's just a fact of life in training pigeons. If all of our birds had been released at the same time, who knows how many more we would have lost. The bad thing was, with the sexes separated, we lost a whole bunch of one sex. We've got some friends that train separate, he releases the birds and his wife calls him when they come in. If they do good, he releases the next basket. If it takes them a long time, he brings the other basket of birds home and calls it a day. My husband ain't gonna sit for an hour waiting for me to call him and say yes, let them go, or no bring them home.... Anyway, that's just my thoughts. I hope you don't have any bad releases, we don't have them often, but it does happen and if any of us knew WHY, we'd fix it I guess..LOL Keep up the good work. I've been following the thread, but just let Ellen handle it. She's great and too much advice can confuse!!! Ask me...........I KNOW!!! LOL


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks so it's okay if at this point I go in a few directions?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SB_doves said:


> Thanks so it's okay if at this point I go in a few directions?


Sure. It's good for them. See, the difference in your birds and race birds.........your birds will be expected to fly home from where ever your wedding, funeral, etc...........is and that could be in any direction. Race birds are expected fly home from the same general direction all during race season. We may train up to 10 miles or so around the clock, especially in YB's, so that if they overfly the loft or follow birds that live way east or way west of their home, they still are familiar with where they are.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I have no clues nor advice .. Ellen went out of town for a few days .. many thanks to the members filling in with great information here.

Terry


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Thanks everyone for helping with the training of these youngsters. I am sorry I was out of town so I will try to answer real quick before I get back to work of the vacation after chaos.

It is fine to train daily as long as the birds are fed correctly, it is actually good to keep the pressure on them and keep them thinking, watch the weight closely and increase as needed and supply the carbs and fats needed to keep up the body weight and muscle if they start going down on you they will loose their body muscle and then you will have to shut them down until you get it back, health and weight are your top concerns right now as well.

What was stated is true about releasing in a mass group, you always risk loosing the majority if something goes wrong and as they get out a little ways you will need to start releasing in 2 groups, I usually don't start it until after they have came good from the 25 mile marker, as far as releasing from different directions at this time I wouldn't do it as it will cause a little confusion until they really have the training and what they are supposed to do, I usually start that after they hit the 40 mile marker and are coming good, then I take them in a different directions about 20 miles out and see how they do, I really find that young birds need the experience before the change of directions comes in but it is your call to make.

Ellen


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

relofts said:


> Thanks everyone for helping with the training of these youngsters. I am sorry I was out of town so I will try to answer real quick before I get back to work of the vacation after chaos.
> 
> It is fine to train daily as long as the birds are fed correctly, it is actually good to keep the pressure on them and keep them thinking, watch the weight closely and increase as needed and supply the carbs and fats needed to keep up the body weight and muscle if they start going down on you they will loose their body muscle and then you will have to shut them down until you get it back, health and weight are your top concerns right now as well.
> 
> ...



My exact reason for staying out of this thread.  You can ask 10 fanciers the same question and get 20 different answers and they will all make sense and it will confuse the heck out of you!!! 
My advice to you is to listen to Ellen and do what she says. You've got lots of years and time to play with different ways of doing things, but for now it's best to listen to ONE person and get your feet good and wet. When we started racing birds I read WAY to much and we got TO MUCH advice from different flyers and they all said the "other person's way" was not a good way, etc..............boy, were we confused at times. You're doing great. Glad you are back Ellen. You're not allowed any more trips for a while!!!


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Darn, I am going to San Diego in a week, you were great with your advise though, I always stand on the cautious side with mentoring new flyer's so that they have the best possible chance of success that I hope they have, later with experience and learning to read their birds they will know how far to go with them and can try other things out like you suggested, of course what information I am giving is only my opinion and experiences as well as with mentoring some new flyer's in pigeon racing but I think most of us have been there a time or two, but like you said and I totally agree with there are always going to be another's theory as well, thanks so much for stepping in and helping out, a little more time and SB Dove will not even need us anymore.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks Ellen and everyone else Yes one day I will be leaving the nest.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

relofts said:


> Darn, I am going to San Diego in a week, you were great with your advise though, I always stand on the cautious side with mentoring new flyer's so that they have the best possible chance of success that I hope they have, later with experience and learning to read their birds they will know how far to go with them and can try other things out like you suggested, of course what information I am giving is only my opinion and experiences as well as with mentoring some new flyer's in pigeon racing but I think most of us have been there a time or two, but like you said and I totally agree with there are always going to be another's theory as well, thanks so much for stepping in and helping out, a little more time and SB Dove will not even need us anymore.
> 
> Ellen


Well I guess you can then since you've already planned it.  Well, we'll put it this way. If you (SB Doves) need anything while she's gone, of course I'll help out if I can.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> My exact reason for staying out of this thread.  You can ask 10 fanciers the same question and get 20 different answers and they will all make sense and it will confuse the heck out of you!!!
> My advice to you is to listen to Ellen and do what she says. You've got lots of years and time to play with different ways of doing things, but for now it's best to listen to ONE person and get your feet good and wet. When we started racing birds I read WAY to much and we got TO MUCH advice from different flyers and they all said the "other person's way" was not a good way, etc..............boy, were we confused at times. You're doing great. Glad you are back Ellen. You're not allowed any more trips for a while!!!


 I must agree with you Love Birds. Most fanciers are unable to process a lot of "Information". Very few people are skilled enough to wade through all the "Noise" and determine fact from fiction. For some people, it requires a life time, and even then, most will have it wrong.

Sometimes "Forty years of Experience" means....."Doing it wrong for Forty Years, and I ain't changing" 

How a person goes about selecting an advisor, will determine their success or failure in many areas of their life. My personal experience has been that people super successful in a number of areas of their life, like a long term happy marriage, in a career, owning and running a top business, achieving a high level of financial security, a sucessful family life, etc. Often make some of the best pigeon racers, because they have learned to rely on their brain.

Learning who to trust and listen to, is a very basic first step.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Very well said Warren and Love Birds, you will know after time what will work best for you and it may not be the exact way I or anyone of us do things but you will find it works for you. I had many great people with experience give us great advise back in the day and I think we have been able to be successful with racing due to the fact that we took a little of each and then put some of our own knowledge of knowing our birds and they performed to what we did with them.

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

relofts said:


> Warren,
> 
> There was a time when I lived by the K Factors especially in Washington and yes I did notice a difference, and yes it looks to be very bad from 3:00 pm to 6:00 pm today so I will probably not be letting my young birds out this afternoon to play it on the safe side of things. Have you done much with the study on K-Factors?
> 
> Ellen


 I had a terrible training toss yesterday at only 8 miles. It took hours for the birds to return. This is what the K factor looked like yesterday, June 1st. Looks like I was at a factor of 4.

http://www.sec.noaa.gov/rt_plots/kp_3d.html


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Warren,

It very well could have effected them, many are now using the K-factors when releasing the birds. 

Green is a go
Yellow is caution 
Red is a no

Of course this is still a theory.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*6/8/06*

Boy it's been foggy here so have not done much in the way of training tosses. I did take the team out Monday and did my first Funeral. It went very well they beat me home. My young team of 8 are trapping well now and grouping very nice so I did there first basket toss this morning went very well. I will take them a few blocks out in the morning for toss two. Now for my question my team of 21 is up to about 12 miles or so can I get the young ones caught up so I can start traing together? I would like to move the younger birds in with my team so I can use that section of the loft for breading.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Funeral Release*

Has anyone given any thought of the fact, that these birds being trained for a funeral release, should be handled and trained differently then a racing team ? 

I mean if I ordered a funeral release, and the birds flew out of the crate and disappeared over the tree tops in a flash...  ...I mean I would feel cheated. I would want those birds to circle for a good fifteen minutes at least ! They better not be a bunch of racers.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SB_doves said:


> ..... Now for my question my team of 21 is up to about 12 miles or so can I get the young ones caught up so I can start traing together?....


Yes, you can.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Will they do circle a good six to seven times wasn't sure how to teach that? Thoughts????


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I don't know about everyone, but in my case, the more often I train, the less the birds will circle. The only thing off the top of my head that might cause them to linger at the release point longer, is a lower motivation to come home right away. Perhaps by feeding them a little extra, but that will cause trapping problems.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Do you not find that if you train from the same spot over and over, they do tend to circle less but when you go to a totally new spot for the first time, they will do at least a few circles before they head home. Getting birds to circle in the same spot for 15 minutes??? You gotta be kidding me. Even if they don't go straight home, they shouldn't be circleing the same area for 15 minutes...... If people are at a wedding they DO NOT want to watch birds fly in a circle for 15 minutes and neither do people at a funeral...........If you get a few good circles out of the birds, they've done what they are suppose to do in my opinion. And yes, releasing white "doves" at any event, they should be "white racing homers" because they are the birds that can get home. I would suggest that you don't order any "white dove releases" at your next event............I think you WILL feel cheated.. People spend countless dollars and hours of their time trying to train thier birds to come home and now we need to train some to "not go home, but circle for your onlookers and THEN go home"? Come on Warren!!!!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Sorry, I guess I was thinking with my marketing hat on. I guess to know for sure, one would have to issue or divise some sort of customer satisfaction or expectation survey. Have them check off, I want the birds to be visable for 7.6 seconds after release, 23.2 seconds, or 3 minutes or longer and see what kind of response you get. 

Perhaps you are already pulling down a hundred grand a year in the release biz...and don't need another customer.

But, I am not in the "Release" business. I was just offering my view point as a consumer and as a possible customer. 

Sorry...


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Personally I wouldnt push my birds. First they would have to be trapping and then flying around the neighborhood and comfortable with their surroundings before I would take them anywhere. Don't scare them if they havent been flying let them get used to their surroundings. You will loose less if they arent pushed and not used to their surroundings. If they arent trapping they arent familiar with a routine that its eating time.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

re92346mos said:


> Personally I wouldnt push my birds. First they would have to be trapping and then flying around the neighborhood and comfortable with their surroundings before I would take them anywhere. Don't scare them if they havent been flying let them get used to their surroundings. You will loose less if they arent pushed and not used to their surroundings. If they arent trapping they arent familiar with a routine that its eating time.



Thanks for the help but you need to read the posts first. I never talked about pushing any birds.


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

I wasn't insinuating you were. I was just telling you how I do and I guess I do not understand what you are talking about or vice versa. I read it. Sorry


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

No prob not trying to be mean. What I am saying is that I have a young team of 8 that are trapping well and grouping. My other team of 21 is up to 12 mile tosses I was asking if it was okay to build the 8 up to the 12 mile mark and start training as a team of 29.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

No one has talked about what time of day to let them out. I have found that if you let them out in the evening when it is calm that you have less flyaways. You will still have birds take a short vacation and spend the night on the neighbors house. Keep them hungry and you will not have much problem. I am finding the less I worry the better they do. Hungry, signal trainned and trap tained is the key. I have not lost a bird this year, better than last. I think it is the feeding strategy. If you are like me and fly 3 rounds from the same loft you have a different set of problems. I have found that if I do not push my first round of youngsters to get in shape and skip a few days of flying here and there, that they are not as willing to range and take the younger birds away from the loft. I am also flying a group of about 10 fat oldbirds with the young birds. They give me about 15 hard minutes in the air and never leave site of the loft. My youngbirds are grouping with them well. When they get too strong, I will sit them out a few days. When all the rounds are in the air, I will remove the oldbirds and start two a days with them, getting them to range. I will let you know how it works. So far so good. 
Randy Hill


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*6-13*

Took all Birds team of 21 plus the 8 young on a 15 mile toss this morning. They were home before I was looking great. They still don't want to trap into the older bird side of the loft they just waited by there young bird side.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sounds like that went good then. The younger ones will learn to trap on the right side. We have to do this with our YB's every year.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*June 25th*

Took the crew for a toss before dark went 25 miles they were home in just under 30 min is that good?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

They are doing great, I don't think you could ask for it to get much better then you have them going, your team of youngsters are performing to a "T" looks like you will have them ready to go in another few weeks and they will be ready to take on what ever you want them to. 

GREAT JOB!!! 

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

I am getting calls for Santa Yenz it is a mountain like area it's not too far but there are some montains there it's in a valley. I can start to train on the 154 it cuts right through the montains or should I take the coast 101 longer but less mountains then cut into the mountains.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

If it were me I would go the shortest route to teach the birds, you can always train both ways but for me and keep in mind that I race my birds and always train them on the line of flight to start them I would go through the pass as I don't want my birds learning to go around a mountain I want them to either go through the canyon or over the mountain.

Hope that helps you.

Ellen


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Okay should I do many tosses and just go very slow? Should I take them like a mile or so in for my first toss?


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