# infection on tongue of feral pigeon!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

string injury pigeon, getting ready for release, was just checking him over to make sure he's looking ok. well, he's got an infection halfway up his tongue. I've seen this before, but it was with a bird with such BAD canker it had spread to and around tongue in almost exactly the same way, except with that bird there was a ton more canker in mouth, throat, etc.
There was actually MORE yellow stuff then pictured, but i wasn't sure what it was, so i pulled off a tiny piece to make sure it wasn't a piece of something. Under the infection is an obvious ring all the way around tongue where the infection has eaten into flesh of tongue. I'm afraid he's going to lose the half of it. It seems very flimsy and almost about to fall off.
I left the rest of pus, afraid to mess with it. I gave flagyl, but i just did that to get something into him. What is it, and what SHOULD i be giving him?
I've got him away from other pigeons now too, I'm afraid they will get it now since they were in contact?

here's link to photos
http://public.fotki.com/xscribblerx/sick-pigeons/


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I don't think that's canker .. looks more like something .. piece of string ?? was around the tongue .. possibly fishing line that you can't easily see ??

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi "X, 



This might be one of those occasions where mixing some "DSMO" into a tiny batch of a stout solution of an anti-trichomonal medicine, and applying this then to the actuall affected part, would be worth while...

You can get 'DMSO' at any Farm or Feed Store and it is inexpensive...


Since it will carry anything into tissue, through skin, of course be extra careful in how you handle and manage every detail when using it...


That, and, of course, have him on a routine Anti-Canker medicine systemically for however long...



Thats my thought on this...

It would get the medicine into the Tongue instantly...



Is your 'Flagyl' a Liquid? - or a 'pill' sort?



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> I don't think that's canker .. looks more like something .. piece of string ?? was around the tongue .. possibly fishing line that you can't easily see ??
> 
> Terry



Hi Terry, Hi "X",



Well...of course, make sure this is Canker if considering to treat the Tongue with anti-canker-meds...


Candida can sometimes find odd expression...


Have you a frieldy vet or other recourse for a Lab test from a swab?


Phil
l v


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

nope, no place to get something done, a vet, etc.
what is DSMO? and antitrichomonal medicine?
No farm/feed stores around here either.
should i remove the pus and see if anything is in there?
and should i just give flagyl until i get right meds, or find out what it is?
It is the pill form, phil.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

xxmoxiexx said:


> nope, no place to get something done, a vet, etc.
> what is DSMO? and antitrichomonal medicine?



I'm not Phil, but that is a free radical scavinger.

http://www.dmso.org/index.html

I would put a drop of colloidal silver on that spot on the tongue, as it is a wonderful for any infection, and internally too,


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> should i remove the pus and see if anything is in there?


JMO, but this could be pox. I couldn't see the picture very clearly. Pox lesions can develop on the tongue and pox tends to destroy tissue. I wouldn't remove anything.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, what should i treat with? And what is collodial silver? And where can i get some?
There is no feed/farm stores here.
I dont think it is a string, i always check the mouth when they come in. Well, it could of been there, and not been infected yet, so ignore that thought.
I know, hard to get pics that close!
I'm at a loss, what to do?
What do you give for pox?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pox is a virus, and a fairly highly communicable one, too. So, you'll need to isolate this bird for awhile and there is no systemic medication that can do any good. That said, it's a topical treatment only if it's that particular virus family. Frankly, there aren't many that are going to do much of any good inside the mouth like that. Colloidal silver is a product with silver particles in a suspension, found at most health food stores. Treesa's favorite is by Sovereign Silver and the only one that she promotes. You'd just paint it on the tongue.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi "X", 



This is hard for all of us to quite envision - would you start over and give a detailed description, from the top?


Is there an construed infection site which is beneath the Tongue, as well as involving the Tongue itself?


And, is it 'red'? Does it have any texture, swelling, laceration or bleeding?


Pus? As in 'white' or 'yellow' or...? - 'in' a Bubble or Blister? Or, oozing out from an opening?


Phil
l v


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

so, Pidgey, you think it is pox too?
I separated him, but he was with the others too.
So, the tongue, there was a ring of yellowish/white around, ALL the way around the tongue, in a perfect circle really. I thought it may be a piece of seed somehow, and pulled at a piece, and it was a piece of pus. Not hard pus, still kind of oozey. Then behind the pus was an indentation into the tongue, and it goes all the way around.
I gave flagyl, and put some powdered flagyl on the tongue, this morning, there wasnt as much pus, but you could see the indentation like where the infection had eaten into the tongue.
The pus wasnt "IN" a bubble or blister, more like coming out of the indentation, the circle, around the tongue.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Still think this was a "something around the tongue thing" .. look at the pics .. it's too perfect to be anything else .. doesn't mean that the meds shouldn't be given .. 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi "X", 


From what you describe them...if it was me confronting this...I think I would gently get off whatever puss there is, and, with a Q-Tip, dab the affected area underside and sides and top, with some 50/50 Peroxide and Water...

And repeat this ohhhhhhhhh, every six hours or so...and see if that does not see the matter resolved.


It is ONLY on his Tongue then? Not in his Throat or Mouth in any other places?


Anyway...who knows? People sometimes get some little 'thing' on their Tongues or on the roof of their Mouths...and these, is gently debrided and treated with some Peroxide, go away nicely in no time...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have used colloidal silver a lot recently, I find that it is particularly good for eye damage.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil, from what I gather by the pictures and description is it's like you slid a tiny ring halfway down the tongue between the absolute tip and the base. You'd almost think it was a string injury, it's such a perfect ring. The rest of the bird seems unaffected. It sure would be a tough thing to try and work on looking for a string or filament given the awkwardness of the location. I think you'd need a second pair of hands that were both holding the bird as well as keeping the beak open wide.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

if its a string, why isnt there a piece hanging off the side? I looked really good, and if its anything, i'd say it has to be a SINGLE piece of hair wrapped around there. The pus is gone now. After putting the flagyl powder on it, the pus is gone. There uis still an indentation though. I just dont see ANY way of digging in there safely to remove anything?
Even my most pointy scissors and tweezers are too wide to get in there. And use what, a needle? I'm scared $#@&* to do that!
No, there isnt any sores, anything, anywhere else.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

use peroxide on the tongue?
Has ANYONE here EVER seen something around the tongue? I'd like to say I dont think it could happen, but never say never i guess.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2007)

Moxie,
Use a cotton swab like a Q-Tip and see if you can determine anything from it.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

PigeonPerson, with or without peroxide?
all the pus is gone. do yu think the flagyl did that?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i tried to get in there, with a tweezer and just pull apart the indentation to see if i saw anyting, dark hair/string, etc. Nothing, i didnt see anything, and i tried to put the tweezer in and see if i could get anything out. Nothing.
Could it really be a string? I just dont see it in there.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2007)

Moxie,
Canker and pox both have exudates that look like pus so I don't know what you're dealing with. You can't do anything about the pox but I suggest you keep up with the Flagyl.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, what do you think of the string theory? I can understand it, looking at it and the pics, but i'm at a loss because i dont see anything, and am afraid to dig around...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, it could very well be a hair. Any way you can look at it with a magnifying glass?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Phil, from what I gather by the pictures and description is it's like you slid a tiny ring halfway down the tongue between the absolute tip and the base. You'd almost think it was a string injury, it's such a perfect ring. The rest of the bird seems unaffected. It sure would be a tough thing to try and work on looking for a string or filament given the awkwardness of the location. I think you'd need a second pair of hands that were both holding the bird as well as keeping the beak open wide.
> 
> Pidgey




Hi Pidgey, 



Oye, yes...I know all about needing that second-pair-of-hands..!


Yeeeeeesh! They can be such Wiggle-Worms..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi "X", 




Or...'String' figuratively...as some very fine Hair m-a-y-b-e...and while an extremely improbable thing to have occur, it is possible, somehow, that some loop or self tieing little loop of very fine Hair could get around their Tongue...


Maybe there was such a loop of very fine Hair, and he it slid off or he finaly got it off, prior to your noticing the afflicted area...


Peroxide is safe for Mouths and Tongues...and you can drink it with no problems, and many people in fact add it to Water for drinking, or as a means of steralizing 'iffy' Water in a pinch...but it can sting a little when it is straight from the Bottle ( and bear in mind, the stuff in the Bottle is typically only some small percent Hydrogen Peroxide in Water, in the first place, ) and generally would be cut with Water to one degree or another from the Bottle Strength as well, for topical uses...

But it will kill any topical 'germs' it comes in contact with, pretty well no matter what sort they are.


Some Birds can get Yeast or Fungal infections in their Tongues, but that does not sound like what you are seeing, and I have never heard of it occuring with Pigeons...but it could, I suppose...


Anyway...


Hoping his Tongue is going to be alright...!


Phil
l v


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

update on toungue. There isnt anymore "pus," or obvious ring of infection. If you look closely though, there is still a fine indentation, the camera couldnt even pick it up. I'm still wondering about a fine hair, or even a fine fine piece of fuzz being there, but i cant get to it if it's there. I've tried, and i think i made things worse at the time. 
I still have him seperated. He's in a fish tank with a wire cover, it's about the size of a kitty carrier. He hates it, and is in fine shape otherwise! Very soft feathers, handsome, clear eyes, nose, throat, etc.
I guess i'm trying to see if it continues to close, the indentation, and clear up, i dont know what else to do?
I guess, since I will be on winter break next week, and i'll have more time, I can take him to New England Wildlife, where I took the goose and one pigeon with Karen. Since he is in theory releasable if it is only a hair, he wont be put down. Something worries me though, as they promised me with the pigeon and goose that they mail out updates every month on every animal, and I never got one, and they wont tell me over the phone what happened to the goose and pigeon. They just say they'll send out another newsletter, and get my address again, and I never get it. And, that was in September?? So, i was supposed to get an October newsletter, and never got it. I hate that about wildlife centers/rehabbers, etc. I want to know what happened to said animal, and they should know some people want more than just the knowledge they dropped the animal off somewhere, that we want to know the outcome too!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> update on toungue. There isnt anymore "pus," or obvious ring of infection. If you look closely though, there is still a fine indentation, the camera couldnt even pick it up. I'm still wondering about a fine hair, or even a fine fine piece of fuzz being there, but i cant get to it if it's there. I've tried, and i think i made things worse at the time.
> I still have him seperated. He's in a fish tank with a wire cover, it's about the size of a kitty carrier. He hates it, and is in fine shape otherwise! Very soft feathers, handsome, clear eyes, nose, throat, etc.
> I guess i'm trying to see if it continues to close, the indentation, and clear up, i dont know what else to do?
> I guess, since I will be on winter break next week, and i'll have more time, I can take him to New England Wildlife, where I took the goose and one pigeon with Karen. Since he is in theory releasable if it is only a hair, he wont be put down. Something worries me though, as they promised me with the pigeon and goose that they mail out updates every month on every animal, and I never got one, and they wont tell me over the phone what happened to the goose and pigeon. They just say they'll send out another newsletter, and get my address again, and I never get it. And, that was in September?? So, i was supposed to get an October newsletter, and never got it. I hate that about wildlife centers/rehabbers, etc. I want to know what happened to said animal, and they should know some people want more than just the knowledge they dropped the animal off somewhere, that we want to know the outcome too!




Hi "x", 



Well, if it continues to improve and all seems well with him...and if he can fly alright, consider to just release him...


What is 'New England Wildlife' supposed to do with him? if you did take him there and leave him?


I am sure they'd release him pronto if he seemed even 'passably' okay...so, you could just do that too and save yourself a trip.


Otherwise, bear in mind, any 'rehab center' which gets a large or really any volume of ecclectic patients, is going to have to make lots of hard decisions on who to save, who to take time and protracted care with, and who to let die or euthanize or whatever, who they are not in the mood to deal with Patient wise, what is worth the trouble to them in whatever way, and what is tacitly not...and, at best, they are likely to be short handed, short on competant help, short on room, short on time, and over worked, harried, 'buried' even sometimes...so...


Really, for almost any of these things, I would imagine, either you do it, or it ain't gonna happen for the Bird...and unless you can count on them for help with immediate and transient proceedures where you keep the patient and manage the recovery, you have no controll over the Bird's fate otherwise if you drop it off to them, and leave it...


Personally I will virtually NEVER let a Bird out of my site, and I will not even let a Vet or anyone hold them..! I hold the Bird and let the Vet examine him...

I hold the Bird if the Vet if doing Sutures or whatever...


Either I hold them for any proceedure, or the heck with it...with rare exception...


I trust almost no one to do ANYTHING on any of these Birds, and I barely trust them if I am right "there" hanging on TO the Bird, and even those I do 'sort of trust', are not near as good as I am at holding and managing the Bird for a proceedure to be done...and usually it is some assistant who uses brute force TO hold the Bird and this offends me deeply, and it is not necessary if one knows how TO hold them 'gently'...so...

On and on...and on...

Ohhhh! Steam comes out these Ears!


Rambley...

Yours, 

Best wishes...

Phil
l v


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh Phil! I understand! I hate to take birds places too, because thats ALL i used to do, find a hurt bird/animal, call some rescue/rehab placer, or rehabber. Well, with all the times i did this, i only had a few good outcomes. And that was mostly because it was a cat or kittens, etc. Not pigeons. 
So, I am going to wait a few days, see how it goes, if it heals. I did try one last time to get something out, either the hair is so fine and tight nothing can get under it, or it is something else, which is what i am hoping!
What an AWKWARD spot to work with on a bird, though, huh?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, wanted to update this pigeon. There is no more pus around the area, but i swear i can still see an indentation there, all the way around. I tried many times to "get out," whatever, if anything, was there.
I'm wondering what to do now? There doesnt seem to be anymore infection, should i wait a bit longer, see if it pops up again? He is still away from the other birds, does he still need to be seperated? He is QUITE mad about being alone!
Let me see about getting pics...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He has been treated for canker, right? Well, I think you can let him socialize with the other residents, it will do him good.

Reti


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