# Swollen, Watery Eyes!



## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hello all,

My pigeon woke up today with swollen, watery eyes. It looks as if he has a third eyelid on the bottom raised. If feathers around the eye could be missing, then it appears so. Or maybe that is the swelling? He was fine last evening and is otherwise healthy. In fact, he saw a vet last week! He had mites and was dusted with Seven Dust last Monday. He cleared up. He is eating, drinking and flying across the yard when out of his pen. This is all new to me and I am not sure which way to turn. I went to the Merck Vet Manual and became overwhelmed. Please offer any suggestions that might help or what this might be?? I have another vet appointment for Tuesday. Thanks in advance for your input.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Glad to hear you have another vet appointment.
They watery eyes might be from a number of reasons, including respiratory disease.
For now, until your next vet visit provide the bird with warmth, plenty of water to which you can add vitamins and food.
Don'y let the bird out until he has recovered completely.
You mentioned your vet visit is Tuesday, is that tomorrow or next week?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cricket said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My pigeon woke up today with swollen, watery eyes. It looks as if he has a third eyelid on the bottom raised. If feathers around the eye could be missing, then it appears so. Or maybe that is the swelling? He was fine last evening and is otherwise healthy. In fact, he saw a vet last week! He had mites and was dusted with Seven Dust last Monday. He cleared up. He is eating, drinking and flying across the yard when out of his pen. Please offer any suggestions that might help or what this might be?? I have another vet appointment for Tuesday. Thanks in advance for your input.


Hi Cricket,

I'm sorry to hear your bird has swollen eyes. It may be a cold, or eye infection. If your doctor appoint is tomorrow then that is good timing. This needs to be diagnosed a.s.a.p

Please keep the bird in a safe location, isolated from other birds, as Reti has already mentioned. Don't allow the bird to run around the yard, because he is vulnerable to predator attack if he is unable to see well. 

Do you have a health food store in your area. You might want to purchase a bottle of Sovereign Silver, colloidal silver. It helps with eye irritations and infections. You should put one drop in each eye.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, it's possible that he picked up something at the vet's the last time you were there, incubation times being the way they are. The causes of conjunctivitis are many and can include bacterial, chlamydial, viral, mycoplasmal, chemical, etc., some are severe and some are just a nuisance.

While waiting for you vet appointment, you can go to a pet store, if convenient, and pick up some Terramycin ophthalmic ointment to put in his eyes. That's certainly not going to hurt anything and it just might help.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Thanks all! Yes, the vet appointment is tomorrow, Tuesday. That is good, unless he did pick something up from there! I put him in a carrier with a heating pad underneath and fresh water with two drops of Echinacea w/out alcohol. I have also brought him into my house and into our sunroom. I figure since a storm is brewing, he would be draft free and already captured for the ride to the vets tomorrow. I will also stop by the health food store, sounds like I should start up my medicine cabinet. The Terramycin ointment is also a good idea to have around. I will also go to the pet store. Now that he is settled and in a smaller space, I notice his poops are bigger and wetter. He's sick. This is sad. I hope I am not doing anything wrong.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

OK, I called the vet up the street from me just to see if they carried Terramycin ointment to save me a trip to the pet store. This is not a bird vet, but they suggested I wait before putting anything in the birds eyes so that the Bird Vet can diagnose him properly. If I put stuff in his eyes, it may clear it up too much (or not) and the Doctor won't be able to tell me what is wrong. I'm torn about this one. I hate to see my bird look so uncomfortable, but I see their point. Any thoughts?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Tough question. Realistically, there are several very bad things that it can be, many of which eye salve won't do a bit of good for. The other symptoms indicate something more systemic than a simple eye infection, anyway. Can you tell if there's any respiratory difficulty at all?

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cricket said:


> OK, I called the vet up the street from me just to see if they carried Terramycin ointment to save me a trip to the pet store. This is not a bird vet, but they suggested I wait before putting anything in the birds eyes so that the Bird Vet can diagnose him properly. If I put stuff in his eyes, it may clear it up too much (or not) and the Doctor won't be able to tell me what is wrong. I'm torn about this one. I hate to see my bird look so uncomfortable, but I see their point. Any thoughts?


That is a decision you must make, but I myself would give the bird a drop of colloidal silver in each eye and a couple down the throat, it won't hurt and will help.

You are doing everything right, by making the bird more comfortable and keeping him warm. You may not need to keep the heating pad on, just make sure the bird is kept warm. Providing him his food and water and TLC is just what he needs.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

His breathing seems normal and there is no nasal discharge that I can detect. He is now standing on one leg. Does that mean anything? I am going to an appointment shortly, and while I am out I will go to the Health Food Store to buy the Colloidal Silver. I will make the decision when I get home. Ugh. Thanks for the support.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm glad you're taking him to the vet tomorrow. We had an outbreak of respiratory infection this summer, some with, some without eye involvement. What I noticed was the afflicted pigeons had subtle breathing changes at first. I'd hold them to my ear and their breathing didn't sound audible, but when I'd check nests they would make subtle gurgling sounds when they "growled" at me. This progressed, usually the next day, to audible gurgling and breathing with their mouths open. So definitely get your pij seen right away. 

Pigeons have donut shaped sinues around their eyes and these frequently fill with fluid when they get respiratory infections. Sometimes an infection is local to the eyes, but more commonly it's a respiratory infection. My vet told me that respiratory infections in birds are far more serious than common colds in mammals. Fortunately I caught all of ours early and didn't lose any pigeons to it. I initially treated individuals with Baytril but when it became apparent it was spreading, treated the whole flock with Doxy-T.

Let us know what the vet says.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Birdmom4ever,

You usually don't go putting birds on Doxy without good reason. Did your vet ever provide a confirmed diagnosis?

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

The Vet will decide tomorrow what to put him on after he gets a good look at him. When I got home, he seems worse to me. One eye is now completely closed and the other is full of a whitish, greyish, gunk and red and watery and the surrounding eye is swollen looking. He has no nasal discharge and no audible breathing problems. He is standing on both feet again but now and again scratches with a dirty foot. He is very dirty right now and I don't think I should try to rinse him off since he is already stressed. I bought the Colloidal Silver and am tempted to put a drop in the open eye anyway. I am finding it hard to wait until the Vet appointment which is not until 11:15. I recieved my first Pigeon book from amazon today and looked in that for common illness or disease. So far, the Ornithosis makes the most sense, however, he does not have the nasal part. He does not gasp for air. The book tells me nothing of a cold in the eye. What or how about an eye cold??


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

WOW! I knew I would not sleep leaving him in the condition he was in so I went ahead and put one drop of Colloidal Silver in each eye and in his mouth, which looks fine by the way, and I can't believe how great he looks almost immediately! His eyes washed out and now both are wide open and not gunky! Still watery and red though. I do have a dumb question, where exactly are the nostrils on a pigeon? I thought they were on top of the wattle but could they be on the side more down towards the opening of the beak??? He is yellowish in that area and I could not see nostril holes on top. My diagram does not help. So much to learn over here!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The nostrils are under the wattles. There is a thin sliver opening on each side down close to the beak "lips" for lack of a better word.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

So we saw the Vet this am. I had brought along a stool specimen. He took a look and since the Colloidal Silver had done such wonders, he suggested I just keep treating with that and see how things go over the next day or two. I was surprised, but I must admit, he looked so much better! He is still watery and red in the eyes. Then this afternoon I get a call from the Vet telling me that the stool check is complete and he has never in all of his years seen such a "wall to wall" smear of Coccidia! He says not to get attached and prescribed Batrum? or something like that for five days and then a recheck. He says if the Coccidia does not kill him, then we will deal with the Capillaria? Lung worms? Ouch. This poor baby. He wants to treat the lung worm with something that treats all kinds of parasites other than Coccidia. I can't remember the name of it. Sooo, yuck and boo hoo over here. I hope he pulls thru this. He actually pooped blood at the Vets when I brought him back over for an actual weight. He is .5 pds. He said I can go ahead and use the Colloidal Silver in his eyes despite the other medication. I guess time will tell. Please wish him (us) luck. Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Coccidiosis (evidenced by "oocysts" in the fecal float test) isn't what caused the symptoms in the eyes. It's something that they've just about all got (though they're not born with it) and it will often flare up badly when their immune system is busy with something else.

Capillaria are threadworms (also called hairworms) and they can bore into the intestinal lining, causing internal bleeding. This poor bird has a lot of issues but I wouldn't be as worried about these two items as the other. If it were me, I'd probably put a little bit of Levamisol through the bird to knock out the Capillaria that are already embedded in the intestines. While that stuff causes nausea, it's not nearly as hard on the system as the other wormers. Do you have any other birds that might have the same trouble brewing?

You might seriously consider the idea of tube-feeding him Kaytee for a few days, or be ready to if need be. His guts have got to be messed up and hurting over that and Kaytee would ease things a bit there.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cricket, you have a lot going on with your little guy but don't despair. We have had pigeons "loaded" with coccidia and they pulled through. Bleeding also occurs with this. There are several medicines you can use. We use Sulmet with good results. One tsp. per gallon of water for five days and, that must be the only water available to them - no bathing bowls or anything like that. I don't recall ever using Bactrim (which is what I think the doctor meant) with this but he may be using that for something else.

I don't know anything about the capillaria or the worms but I would get something for the coccidia right away.

Best wishes, maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cricket,

I'm sorry to hear about all the issues the bird has. Glad the silver is helping the eye issues, you can put a couple of drops down the throat or in the formula.

You should put some extra probiotics (human grade) in the Kaytee, or in the water the bird drinks as it helps replenish gut bacteria, which may next to nothing as the intestines are under such enormous stress. It will aslo help the bird absorb and utilize his food better.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

OK Gang... I have questions! What is Kaytee and Sulmet and where do I find these?? This is my only bird, so no others are at risk. Thank God. He was a found pigeon and we are in the process of building a loft for him and others down the road. I think the Levimisol is what the Vet had said he'd prescribe him after treating the Coccidia problem. He is pooping blood here and there, so yes, his insides must be a mess. The probiotics... is this like acidophilus? Where do I get it and how much do I put in the Kaytee? This is all new to me, so please bear with me and walk me through this. I am anxious to see my bird better. I just spilled the medication prescribed which reads SULFAMETHOXAZOLE W/TMP SUSPHIT. I am supposed to give him .05 ml 1X per day. I spilled almost the entire bottle all over my lap. I will have enough for tomorrow and will have to ask the Vet to call it in again. I also think I got some of it in his nostrils, which I found by the way. Things are not going smoothly over here. Maybe tomorrow? In the meantime, his eyes are starting to clear up. That is good. And he is no longer residing outside in the bunny hutch. He is inside and warm. Ugh.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I see you're discovering the joys of medicating pigeons.

Kaytee is actually a brand name of a powder that is sold by pet stores that carry bird products. The entire name is Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula. There are instuctions inside but you just keep mixing a spoonful with warm water (I never go hotter than the bird, 107 degrees, although it will say to heat it up to 120 degrees and then let it cool back down to 107) and then feed the bird one of several ways, most of them messy.

There are tricks to tube feeding and you have to get the stuff to do that like a big syringe with the same size nozzle on it that the 3 cc syringes have. You also have to get some tubing to put on the syringe. I use electrical heat-shrink tubing that you can get at any Home Depot, Lowe's or most hardware stores. They come in an assortment of sizes (all about 3 inches long) and one will fit tightly over the nozzle of the syringe.

Then you have to load the syringe and learn to feed the bird. You'll probably need pictures and you'll also have to learn to be firm and gentle at the same time. They don't like it and if he's feeding well enough to keep his weight up then it might be all the same to just let him keep feeding himself. Weight is something that you need to monitor closely when they're sick because they can drop off rapidly.

Anyhow, you can hold the bird down in your lap with your right hand as you "cup" his head between your left middle and ring fingers. The palm of your left hand will be facing up. Then using your right hand and fingernails you spread the beak apart to be held open with the index finger and thumb of the left hand (the same one that's holding the head cupped). You need to pull gentle but firm traction on the neck to extend it and then you stick the tube down the throat (not the airway) with the right hand and pump the Kaytee in. If you use a harder tube, there's a risk of punching through although most folks like the feel of them better. With the soft tube like I use, you can't punch through, but your technique needs to be pretty good. The only actual tough part is holding the neck right and firm.

A normal feeding is about 10 to 15% of the body weight of the bird. If they're thin or have been starving themselves, it's usually best to go less not more.

Yes, acidophilus is a probiotic. You get that stuff at a health food store.

The medicine you spilled is basically Bactrim, a Trimethoprim/sulfa. The Sulmet (Sulfamethazine Sodium) mentioned above is another garden-variety antibiotic that can be had at a pet store. You shouldn't use them together to treat the same thing. Bactrim says that it shouldn't be used with other medications.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Thanks Pidgey. Lots of good information there. I don't think I am experienced enough to tube feed at this point. Of course, if he needs it, I will attempt to do it! How do you know which is the airway and which is the throat? Remember, I have only opened this birds beak 3 or 4 times! I didn't even know where his nostrils were! I would hate to accidentally hurt him. His weight was .5 today. Last week he was .7 So he is going down there. I watch him eat on his own though. So when it comes to the probiotics, is there a powder and how much do I give him? I have only purchased capsules before. I can go to a health food store after work tomorrow. Of course, I also need to go back to the pharmacy! As for a pet store, I will call around from work to see if any local stores carry Kaytee and buy some for "just in case." Thanks for your advice Pidgey. Keep it coming!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the airway is pretty easy to miss. If you open a beak real far you can see this little football shaped hole that can open and close behind the base of the tongue. Sticking a tube in towards the back of the throat will cause it to float right over the airway. It's actually pretty hard to get something in that hole. The actual part that you need to watch is not filling the bird up so much that the stuff comes up in the throat.

I don't like to hear about that much weight loss. I guess his keel is getting very prominent by now, huh? (the breastbone). I'd only mix a fraction of a capsule of probiotics, like a quarter or so but other folks on here would be better describing that because they can tell you which ones to buy and how to divide them.

At that weight and given the condition, I'd only feed him 10 cc's of mixed Kaytee, three times a day until I saw how he was taking it. I'd still let him have access to regular food and water and watch him pretty closely to make sure he stays interested in eating.

I'd also make sure that he stayed REAL warm, like heat-lamp-at-10-inches warm but positioned so that he can get away from it if he actually gets hot. He probably won't, though. They almost never do, especially when they're real sick. And don't burn the house down, either.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cricket said:


> The probiotics... is this like acidophilus? Where do I get it and how much do I put in the Kaytee?



Thank you for helping this needy pigeon.

You can get the Solaray, Multidopholis, it comes in powder or capsule. You can purchase it in the refrigerator section at your health food store. I would start with 1/8 teaspoon ( in the formula, or in his drinking bowl)at least, as this poor guy needs lots more then the Kaytee provides.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It occurs to me to also say that you're going to have to learn how to get the medicine definitely IN the bird. As some of them can be real fighters even when they're close to dying, you simply have to get the "holding them down" part figured out. The easiest way is to wrap 'em up in a towel like a burrito with just their head and neck sticking out. It's easier to administer food and medicine that way. Ideally, if you can get their feet pulled back when you wrap, that's really good, but they can paddle those feet pretty doggone fast. It sometimes STILL requires another person to hold the bird in the "pigeon burrito" to keep him from coming out while the other feeds or medicates. Hope that helps.

Pidgey


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Thank you Pidgey, Thank you Treesa. I will go to the Hlth Food Store after work. I have been wrapping my bird like a burrito! That's funny! I have lots of experience with dogs and cats considering what I do for a living, but birds are new to me. I plan on getting the Kaytee and the feeding tube and syringe too. Wish me luck. I will post more tonight. Thanks again for all of your support and time responding and explaining to me. I really appreciate it.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

So no store local to me carried the Kaytee. So I ended up with Pretty Bird Hand Feeding Formula, a long tipped syringe, a thermometer, and picked up some tubing at the hardware store in case the tip was not long enough. I also picked up some probiotics. I got an ALL Florra brand. The Solaray was only in hard capsule, not powder but the herb guy told me what I got is comparable. I used the Colloidal Silver in his eyes, gave him his Batrim, (which I got more of), and sprinkled some probiotic on his seed.(Is that ok? or should it go in water?) He ate all of his morning seed by the time I got home. I don't want to tube feed him unless he seems worse. He seems neutral right now. His eyes seem clear but are still red. His poop is more formed today and I have not seen any more blood. Some other news, my loft has electricity and a sub floor! Things are moving along slowly there since we must work on it after work. I hope this guy pulls thru so he can enjoy his Palace when it is completed. He doesn't give off that "death" vibe. I hope I am right. Any more input is greatly appreciated and more than welcome. Thanks.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cricket said:


> So no store local to me carried the Kaytee. So I ended up with Pretty Bird Hand Feeding Formula, a long tipped syringe, a thermometer, and picked up some tubing at the hardware store in case the tip was not long enough. I also picked up some probiotics. I got an ALL Florra brand. The Solaray was only in hard capsule, not powder but the herb guy told me what I got is comparable. I used the Colloidal Silver in his eyes, gave him his Batrim, (which I got more of), and sprinkled some probiotic on his seed.(Is that ok? or should it go in water?) He ate all of his morning seed by the time I got home. I don't want to tube feed him unless he seems worse. He seems neutral right now.


Thank you for being so attentive to this birds needs.

I understand the desire not to stress the bird, make sure he eats about a tablespoon of seed at a time. 

I'm sure the probiotcs are just fine.You should put the probiotics in water and stir it up real good, (that way he will drink it) or mix it with the seed in a little bag with a drop of wheat germ oil or olive oil, very little oil. His appetite will increase from the probiotics also.

You can put a few drops of the colloidal silver down his throat, it will help if he has any infection, too.

I sure hope he pulls thru too!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It is a good sign he is eating. I am so glad he is improving.
Well done.
I use Harrison's juvenile formula for sick birds which I think is pretty good and specifically formulated for sick birds which need hand feedings. I am not sure if you can order it online. I will try to find the link for it.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Here is the link

http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/products/index.html


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I think I have become "obsessed" He just has this way of looking at me! Anyhow, thanks for the replies. Treesa, I keep meaning to write that I am still giving him a drop of Colloidal Silver by mouth each day as well. I somehow have not stated that each post. He likes it. More than that pink cherry flavored Batrim, thats for sure. I would love to order The Harrison's Juvenile Formula for Sick Birds Reti! If you can find it, do send the link my way. I am also having trouble finding Pigeon Grit. My local Agway does not have it. The pet store did not either. I was going to call a Garden Center tomorrow to see if they carry Calcified Seaweed. I read that one in my new pigeon book titled "Pigeons, Doves and Dovecoats" I have been using bird gravel and I know that this is not sufficient.


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