# Problems with One Loft Races



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

In lieu of Alamo's response on how someone could play favortism in one loft races, let's examine other ways favortism could be rear its ugly head. I'm going to preface what I'm about to say as I'm not saying people are cheating, not pointing fingers, but one could think of many ways one loft races can be mishandled. 

Alamo said that birds not in #! could get the preferential treatment as far as feed, medication, tosses on nice days. While all other birds could get feed to "just keep them alive," tosses on questionable days, and little or no medication. 

Another one is that some birds could be put through a system to benefit them and other birds aren't. For example, #! birds could have their 9th and 10th flights cut and pulled while all other birds not. When it comes to the final 300 or 350 mile race, most birds will be on their 9th or 10th flight. These latter birds will be at a big disadvantage to birds in section #!. 

Just my thoughts.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Cheating, when it comes to one loft racing you would always hope every thing is on the up and up, BUT then we bring in the money thing. Money bring out the best in some people, but more times than not it will bring out the worst. IMO
Dave


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Flights*

My friend got some birds back from a 1 loft and did not have full feathers-He thought that was kind of strange. Talked to some others includeing the winner and all said they had full feathers, Just wondering why all birds were not the same?
Jack


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Without calling names now - and this is a widely known practice:

I have connections - I won a big race or two, I know some players.

I decide to start my own one loft race or I decide to let others run the one loft race. I start soliciting well known players (the pigeon peddlers, the top one loft competitors, the financiers, the people with the cash, the people who buy my birds).

You enter my race, I give you 1 free entry for every 10 entries you bring to the race. Pretty soon, the loft is full with 1000 entries and 100 of them are complimentary to the endorsees.

I play by your rules - after all you are bringing the players. You want your birds back after the race - no problem, I can arrange that. 

You don't want your birds back after the race - you would prefer to get 50% back if I can arrange to bid and hype the bird up.

You want an average speed race? No problem - because I can easily manipulate one race to throw off the top bird out of first place. How so? All I have to do is let the bird miss a race or have it in a special basket so he is late.


I let you put your special band (a different color than the standard IF or AU color for the year). In that way, should I need to easily identify your bird to give it a special snack- easy!

I put you on my website with your photo and your bird. I give you a full one page blurb in the Digest.

Why would you not enter my race next year?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

This makes me not want to send any birds to one loft races anymore.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> This makes me not want to send any birds to one loft races anymore.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinions..but I highly doubt that their is that much "special" treatment involved. All you have to to do to verify this is purchase birds from those One Loft winners and compare them to your own. 

If those admittedly expensive birds do not out perform your own stock then a case could be made for bias One Loft races...but the truth is quite the contrary. They have some of the best bred birds in the world that win wherever they are. 

I thinks its good to have open discussions of all the shady "possibilities". I see no reason to be willfully blind to the facts..those things could happen. But if you did enter the race and you won...would you want people saying your bird won because of preferential treatment? 

In my humble opinion at some point the "transparency" Warren asked for will have to be there if everyone is to feel satisfied the race is on the up and up. 

Now before my comment on this get blown out hand..I am new to Racing Pigeons and as such have no "first hand" experience in these events. I am still forming my opinion and I encourage everyone to share their thoughts on the matter. I hope we can discuss these things without attacks on the individual person. Merry X-mas Pigeon Talk.


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## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

From everything that has been posted up to this point, I can agree with 100%. But lets look at the same situations even at the club level.

Heres a true story that happened this year in my club. I will omit actual names so not to create bigger issues, but Im sure you will get the point.

Flier's A through H send 20 birds in every race, both A and B races. Flier I and J send only what they have ready for that week, say from 4 to 10 birds. Results for flier I and J are average with no big wins but compared to fliers A - J, they have the least amount of losses. Now it comes time for the special money races and again flier I & J have the least amount of entries. When both flier I and J win the race, knocking the more dominant fliers A-H out of the upper winnings, whats the first thing that is yelled out? That they cheated! But the accusers dont say that to flier I and J directly, but indirectly by starting rumors and false acusations about how they fixed the race some how. 

Two weeks later on the final money race, flier I and J have birds in the upper winnings and again the rumor mill starts in with calling, cheating.

Being that Im the race secretary, I had to review and triple check the times for both of the races. And do you know that there was not one false time for an entry and no birds had been excluded from the results!

It a shame to say that in this sport, if the little guy beats any one of the more dominant fliers, they dont get the slap on the back and hand shakes....oh no....they get accussed of cheating! We are all competitive in some degree or we wouldnt race birds but from within my own club, the powers that be can not stand to loose and they accuse you of cheating or they re-configure the boundries to exclude you as a member. 

So if its a One Loft Race, Specials or Futurities, anything that offers cash as prizes, it seems as if they are really saying, "we want your money, but youll never win and if you do and do it to many times, we will kick you out."


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Everything I have read in all the posts here are correct....The "Problem" with the One Loft Race increases greatly,as the "PRIZE" money increases...Lets face it,a little race with 2 or 3 thousand dollars doesn`t look like anyone would really bother to fool around.....But make it a MILLION DOLLARS,and you have the all the makings of a bad dream.....$1000 a bird entry.....You can really tell the who the money grabbers are.....They are the ones shipping in 20 or more birds to the race....They want a 20 bird drop,with ALL their birds,and not yours....No one can tell me that the people who run these kind of races,want ME to win it....They don`t want the big boys embarrased by a bird from a small loft winning the race....The list of entries is a who`s who in this sport...All the guys with alot of $$$,so they can send 20 to 30 birds.....More then ONE big boy sends his max allowed under HIS name,then has his wife enter another max allowed....Talk about $$ grabbing people !! That`s it right there....These guys wives ARE NOT pigeon flyer`s.....Then after they so call WIN the big race,they put a front page ad to sell you babies for $2,500 from the so called winner....I have only sent birds out to 3 Convention races,and I have won money in 2 of the 3 races....I don`t have the best birds,and I don`t have the worst birds either....I just want my birds to have a fair shake in a big $$ race....That`s why Pigeon0446 will be flying 2 birds for me in the 2011 IF Convention race...I know my birds will be taken car of properly....That`s ALL I CAN ASK FOR,as an owner of some OOA birds for a special race...Alamo


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## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

Alamo said:


> Everything I have read in all the posts here are correct....The "Problem" with the One Loft Race increases greatly,as the "PRIZE" money increases...Lets face it,a little race with 2 or 3 thousand dollars doesn`t look like anyone would really bother to fool around.....But make it a MILLION DOLLARS,and you have the all the makings of a bad dream.....$1000 a bird entry.....You can really tell the who the money grabbers are.....They are the ones shipping in 20 or more birds to the race....They want a 20 bird drop,with ALL their birds,and not yours....No one can tell me that the people who run these kind of races,want ME to win it....They don`t want the big boys embarrased by a bird from a small loft winning the race....The list of entries is a who`s who in this sport...All the guys with alot of $$$,so they can send 20 to 30 birds.....More then ONE big boy sends his max allowed under HIS name,then has his wife enter another max allowed....Talk about $$ grabbing people !! That`s it right there....These guys wives ARE NOT pigeon flyer`s.....Then after they so call WIN the big race,they put a front page ad to sell you babies for $2,500 from the so called winner....I have only sent birds out to 3 Convention races,and I have won money in 2 of the 3 races....I don`t have the best birds,and I don`t have the worst birds either....I just want my birds to have a fair shake in a big $$ race....That`s why Pigeon0446 will be flying 2 birds for me in the 2011 IF Convention race...I know my birds will be taken car of properly....That`s ALL I CAN ASK FOR,as an owner of some OOA birds for a special race...Alamo


So very true!


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Sounds like the College and University sports boosters huh? 

In all seriousness, I agree that when large sums of money are exchanging hands, the doubt of shady practices could happen. I think a good way to handle this is to have a third party be the ones to verify and oversee all things related to the race; from medicating, feeding, system, training, racing, and clocking. This may cost money, but what's the difference when big $$$ is in play?


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Truth or Fiction?

Scenario 1: Two world famous breeders put their birds in a one loft race. On a visit to the loft, the loft manager lets one of the famous breeders handle the other guy's birds. Is this ethical? Why was the famous breeders' birds easily identifiable among hundreds of birds?


Scenario 2: Have you ever noticed that certain big names only support certain races? Each race has its die-hard followers? Why does Breeder A only win in One Loft race X and cannot win in One Loft race Y? Breeders are entitled to their own preferences BUT is it possible that One Loft Race X "favors" Breeder A?


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Ah hah! We have a conspiracy out there!


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

anil_pigeon said:


> Truth or Fiction?
> 
> Scenario 1: Two world famous breeders put their birds in a one loft race. On a visit to the loft, the loft manager lets one of the famous breeders handle the other guy's birds. Is this ethical? Why was the famous breeders' birds easily identifiable among hundreds of birds?
> 
> ...


It's one of those scenarios that the more you think about it, the more negative things are. It should be against the rules for anyone to handle the birds other than the loft race managers.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> It's one of those scenarios that the more you think about it, the more negative things are. It should be against the rules for anyone to handle the birds other than the loft race managers.


I have a question about this statement. In my club we all help load the birds for the races (everyone present that is). Maybe I wasn't paying attention but it seemed to me everyone handle the birds during load in. Why would it be different in a One Loft race scenario?


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

jAxTecH said:


> I have a question about this statement. In my club we all help load the birds for the races (everyone present that is). Maybe I wasn't paying attention but it seemed to me everyone handle the birds during load in. Why would it be different in a One Loft race scenario?


I would presume because at the club its bragging rights, but one changes when high amounts of money is involved and you'd never know what someone might do to the bird while handling it, so only people that do not benefit from which birds win should be handling the birds.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Like I said in my previous response, I think it would be in the best interest of all involve to designate a third party to handle all the verication. Not actually doing the deeds, but observe that feeding (and feed type), medication (type again), system (cutting and pulling flights), training, race liberating, clocking, and clock knock off are done properly and equally. Isn't the idea behind one loft races to be fair and equal? That way the best blood is determined. If there is favortism, then the rich get richer and the guy with the small loft is forgotten. Even though he just lost $1,000 or so.


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Think about it some guy wins races here all the time he sends them to one lofts can't win a penny. There are oneloft races where they train the crap out of them and there are ones where they only loft fly. Horses for course. Some birds could fly the mountain course some can't. I'd just suggest if you have issues about one loft races just let the other people enter then look at the results like you already do I'm sure.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Scenario #3: I am sure to rub some the wrong way on this one - but here goes:

Some of the best birds are entered in one loft races.
Bird S is doing phenomenal in the races thus far and fails to return on a training flight
before the final race.
Bird S's nestmate fails to return on the final race.

Bird S then shows up in an auction on foreign soil.
Bird S's owner is contacted for a pedigree in the USA.

Scenario #4:
Loft managers A, B and C are having phenomenal race performances in other
one loft events in the years following the start of their one loft races. Could it
be possible that they are pulling the best birds for their own breeding purposes?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

There are different scenarios for every race. I will agree with Warren that every race needs to have transperency in order to validate everything. Without it, questions are raised and integrity is questioned. 

I'm not saying that every one loft race is dishonest and out to cheat people. I know there are hard working hosts out there that do an honest job. Everyone knows that with the entire pigeon racing sport, manipulation is so easy to do. For example, removing the band from a very good bird, and rebanding it and selling it along with the pedigree to someone who is unaware can be done. Writing false pedigrees can be done. When one purchases a bird, it's all on good faith and the word of the seller. Most people are honest when asked. However, with a lot of good people out there in the world, there are bad people too. And just like the races, it's pick and choose which races you want to enter. Do your homework before you enter.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Scenario #5:
One loft race owner contacts Breeder X and Breeder Y and asks them to band 20
youngsters each for their race. One loft race owner will provide buyers for these
entries.

Does anyone have a problem with this?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Look at how the Chinese do it. Big bucks demand complete transperency. They don't spend a lot of $$$ for American and European pigeons for nothing. Everything is magnified and randomized to eliminate cheating.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

anil_pigeon said:


> Scenario #5:
> One loft race owner contacts Breeder X and Breeder Y and asks them to band 20
> youngsters each for their race. One loft race owner will provide buyers for these
> entries.
> ...


Was Martha Stewart indicted on insider trading charges?


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Hey anil pigeon, is your name Buck?


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> Was Martha Stewart indicted on insider trading charges?


Don't get me wrong - I'm just trying to see how the forum feels about
certain things that go in one loft races. I am not saying they are right
or wrong - just looking for opinions on whether some of this is
borderline ethical or just plain illegal?

Then Breeder X and Breeder Y shows up in the top 5 of the race sheet on race day - 
did I hear someone say "guaranteed payout" ? LOL


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> Hey anil pigeon, is your name Buck?


bbcdon - No.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Scenario #6:

The race is advertised as a tough course with tough training. So if your pigeons are lost
in training - you are out of luck because your pigeons was just not good enough.

What makes no sense is that on the race sheet we see blowhome speeds of
1600-2000 ypm. How tough was that?

Is the real reason: less birds = less costs? So I lose some of the birds off the lofts and have a few tough 20-40 mile tosses.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Maybe Mojave Breeding Station is sponsoring a 1 loft event this year.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I think it would be awfully stupid of them if they don't try their best to have a good fair race. So that they can bring ppl back year after year. With the money that must have been layed out building that loft that they are building thay have to make this thing work for a while or they're gonna take a huge hit in the wallet.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Scenario #7:

Vegasrace.com - need we say more? Did we already forget who were the major people involved and backed this race?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

A very good friend of mine sent three or four birds to the vegas race. He was very upset how the race was handled. He lost all of his birds. This is a small loft guy, so of course he was pissed.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I pretty much think this says it all about this race


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Sound to me like ppl who think they have better birds then they do because they kick ass in thier club or combine and can't get anything in these one loft races. But maybe their birds aren't as good as they think becasue they might not be flying againt any real competition. Then they try to say this was done that was done just to make themself feel better when in truth they have nobody to blame but themself.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

anil_pigeon said:


> Scenario #7:
> 
> Vegasrace.com - need we say more? Did we already forget who were the major people involved and backed this race?


Ohh... I read about that on SI magazine!!


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Sound to me like ppl who think they have better birds then they do because they kick ass in thier club or combine and can't get anything in these one loft races. But maybe their birds aren't as good as they think becasue they might not be flying againt any real competition. Then they try to say this was done that was done just to make themself feel better when in truth they have nobody to blame but themself.



I think many people have good birds - the handler is what makes the difference.
A good handler can "kick ass in thier club or combine and can't get anything in these one loft races" - VERY true.

I am not here to slam one loft races, there are some good ones out there (which I am not here to endorse either). Just breeders need to be aware of some of the things that are not ethical that goes on at these one loft events. If these "unethical things" cause issues, then move on to another race that does not have these issues.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> Can you elaborate for us who don't know?


ProPigeon - nice blog (if that's yours).

I don't want to start name calling - I will call out events just not people's names.

Vegasrace.com and TOC had the same backers (one very prominent pigeon breeder that I buy birds from).

Now AIC has that person has an endorsee.

Vegasrace.com no longer exists (well - they sold out to Silver State Challenge). TOC - do you consider that a real race?


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

PigeonVilla said:


> I pretty much think this says it all about this race


LOL - very nice!

Are you referring to the Feds at the Vegasrace.com with all the spy equipment?


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## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

Personally, the thing that detracts potential participants is the cost. Most are $100 or more just in perch fees, then to ask $300 for an entry fee is just crazy. No wonder it cuts the smaller fliers out. Especially if you have to work 1 or 2 jobs just to support your family. But yet if the cost are to low, then that also has its draw backs as not being worthy. 

I have no issues with some of the one loft races available, but to me when you take in 400-1000 birds, and train them, then come to the first race you only get 100 or so on the day! To me that sends up a red flag. If I send in birds, I would want them to be trained correctly and not held back just so the organizers can expect to recieve all the entry fee's. (I know a few who do this!)

Now having said that, I can also support the "big time players" as well. If they have the funds and the talent to breed very good birds each year, then they should expect a higher percentage of winners from that years hatches. We all know that its up to the bird come in on race day but how you prepare it all season will increase your odds. Sure breeding plays a huge role but so does handling. Some people are better breeders then fliers. 

I guess the best thing to do is research the races you wish to enter. Look at the history, look at the participants, possibly even contact a few to get there opinion. Ask the members in your club who participate as well. Only you can deside if that particular race is good for you or not and only you can choose. If you dont like something about a particular one, then move to the next one. Eventually youll find something thats good for you.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Timber said:


> Personally, the thing that detracts potential participants is the cost. Most are $100 or more just in perch fees, then to ask $300 for an entry fee is just crazy. No wonder it cuts the smaller fliers out. Especially if you have to work 1 or 2 jobs just to support your family. But yet if the cost are to low, then that also has its draw backs as not being worthy.
> 
> I have no issues with some of the one loft races available, but to me when you take in 400-1000 birds, and train them, then come to the first race you only get 100 or so on the day! To me that sends up a red flag. If I send in birds, I would want them to be trained correctly and not held back just so the organizers can expect to recieve all the entry fee's. (I know a few who do this!)
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree 100%


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

anil_pigeon said:


> ProPigeon - nice blog (if that's yours).
> 
> I don't want to start name calling - I will call out events just not people's names.
> 
> ...


What happened at the Vegas Race, as I didn't read any RPD article and I did not follow the gossip since that was not a race I ever sent birds to. And how many different Vegas Races are/were there ?


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I think it would be awfully stupid of them if they don't try their best to have a good fair race. So that they can bring ppl back year after year. With the money that must have been layed out building that loft that they are building thay have to make this thing work for a while or they're gonna take a huge hit in the wallet.


I agree. Once the integrity of the race is compromised, it is doomed. But I believe that some of the inferences on this thread are straight from the *"Ministry of Propaganda"*.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Conspiracy is born from the lack of transparency!


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