# Apple cider vinegar?



## sirpigeon (Jan 25, 2002)

Has anyone been using the apple cider vinegar that KD Spurling had reccommended? I started using it a month and a half ago(one-quarter cup per gallon)and my birds fertility has gone from near 100% to 0%.I asked an old time fancier about it and he said one-quarter cup is way too much and only 1 tablespoon per gallon should be used.Has anyone else had this problem?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I use it in my flock water outside with the ferals and my avian vet strongly recommended it for my own pijjies but I haven't got around to using it yet... I'm not sure about the fertility but my feral flock has totally STOPED nesting on my balcony or any other (I don't know if that's the problem?)


Mary

p.s Yes 1/4 cup seemed abit too much per Gallon acording to my vet too...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good morning Sirpigeon,
I use the apple cider vinegar as well & haven't had any sick pigeons since. If that is the reason? Not sure, but happy they all are healthy.
I have no idea about the fertility issue, sorry. I am sure other members will be along to help you with that question. 
Cindy 

[This message has been edited by AZWhitefeather (edited January 01, 2003).]


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Go to this web site and read the articles. You may even want to drop this guy an e-mail? I don't think ACV would cause the problem you are talking about. http://www.racingbirds.com/remedies.html


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

I use ACV alot, it is really good. It keeps my birds looking very nice and shiny and picks any up that may not be feeling that great. I find it keeps them very lively and active. I also use bleach with the ACV in the water, as it gets rid of all bacteria within the water. I use about half as much bleach as I do ACV. 

Nick


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I'm really not sure but I think they shouldn't be used together.. I think the fancier I visited told me that...

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Mary



> Originally posted by Psion:
> *I use ACV alot, it is really good. It keeps my birds looking very nice and shiny and picks any up that may not be feeling that great. I find it keeps them very lively and active. I also use bleach with the ACV in the water, as it gets rid of all bacteria within the water. I use about half as much bleach as I do ACV.
> 
> Nick*


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

LOL, I don't put them in the same waterer. That would be like poison wouldn't it?

Nick


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Sorry, I didn't get it..... I should start using the cider vinegar .. Although I don't like the bleach idea very much..


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

Bleach is good since it is a disinfectant. Although it kills both good and bad bacteria. In moderation it is a very handy tool, and a great thing to use. Too much though and it is deadly. Use with caution.

Nick


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

Hi everyone,

I'm new here but I do have lots of experience with birds. I used to give ACV to my parrots but have not used it with the pigeons (1 teaspoon to a quart of water once a week) and I had great results with it. My birds looked good and were pretty healthy, until I had two birds die a month with necropsy results coming back stating that the birds were healthy. The problem finaly showed up on the last one - high acid level in the gut. We stopped the ACV and the deaths stopped, that is probably the reason for low fertility and breeding activity. 

Just a guess on the breeding but hope this helps!


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Oh That's too bad.. I'm sorry about the bird









Mary

p.s That scares me abit!












> Originally posted by Christina Coughlin:
> *Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm new here but I do have lots of experience with birds. I used to give ACV to my parrots but have not used it with the pigeons (1 teaspoon to a quart of water once a week) and I had great results with it. My birds looked good and were pretty healthy, until I had two birds die a month with necropsy results coming back stating that the birds were healthy. The problem finaly showed up on the last one - high acid level in the gut. We stopped the ACV and the deaths stopped, that is probably the reason for low fertility and breeding activity.
> ...


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

I agree--- 1/4 c is WAY too much ACV!

The recommended dosage I've seen is 1-2 tsp per GALLON of water. We tend to use the lower dosage, or the birds don't always drink the water.

It is never a good idea to mix any additives in the water. And AVC should only be used 1-2 times a week, anyway. People take AVC tablets to help lose weight -- as it is supposed to help increase metabolism. If you're giving your birds AVC daily, that could be part of your problem.

And please remember, people, if you're using bleach in the water DO NOT use Chlorox, use a generic, plain bleach brand. If you are on "city" water, you don't need bleach anyway. Some small municipalities will "boost" their bleach levels in the summer -- when we lived in town, every so often, you could actually smell the bleach when using hot water. Too much of a good thing can be a BAD thing.


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## Navigator (Jan 2, 2003)

I use ACV once per week, but I would never give more than 1 tablespoon per gallon of water. My normal dosage is 1 1/2 teaspoon per gallon. As for bleach, it is safe if used correctly. When I began raising pigeons, I noticed they had loose droppings. The loft was new and their diet was the same as their previous home, so I knew it must be due to bacteria in my Well-water. I started with 1 tablespoon per gallon and all was well. Then I gradually reduced the amount until it was 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and all was still well. Very little goes a long way.
I also use garlic (1 clove per gallon) once per week with great results.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

From 12/21/02...

Chlorine:
One must apply common sense...

As a general rule, one ignores the chlorine added to the water by municipalities and adds 1 tsp/gal of plain chlorine bleach to the drinking water as a prophylaxis (the slight acidification murders many organisms that would love to flourish in your pigeons!).

In very hot climates, 2 tsp/gal is recommended.

Now, if you open the tap and the water reeks of chlorine, I would not add bleach. Moreover, it's always good to let the water run a bit.

Some municipalities in the states add ammonia too... 

Since I do not have a loft situation, I use apple cider vinegar to get the same effect (acidification). But vinegar is not a disinfectant, per say, and it is not a fungicide or an oxidizer like bleach is. With a loft dynamic, I would use bleach.

Bleach protocols:

A) Plain chlorine bleach--generic is fine. No lemon scent, no laundry additives. Just use plain bleach.

B) Use one (1) tsp per gallon of water. Use two (2) tsp per gallon in very hot climates.

C) Do not add vitamins to bleach treated water--the chlorine will destroy many vitamins.

D) Do not add medication to bleach treated water--chlorine may bond to the medication molecules and form a dangerous toxin. 

E) Chlorine is poison. It was used as a weapon in WWI--many medicines are poisons too; for example, digitalis, from the common flower, bluebell, a/k/a belladonna--so more is NOT better! Use the prescribed amount only.

Again, there's no substitute for an avian vet and proper meds.

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray

PS. Chlorine is processed by the pigeon's kidneys. Have you been using too much?


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

"I also use garlic (1 clove per gallon) once per week with great results."

May I ask, what are the results? I hear and read good things about garlic. What is the benefit to pigeons?

--Ray


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

It is good against cocci and respiratory I have heard. Never used it myself though.

Nick


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## Navigator (Jan 2, 2003)

Garlic is good to help remove toxins from the blood. A lot of fanciers use garlic and swear by the benefits of its use. I say it is good for them, but they don't have to have it to live good healthy lives; it's just a bonus to the fancier in preparing his birds for the races.
I hope everyone did notice that I mentioned that I have well-water and not processed water. This is why I use a little bleach in the water. If I lived where I had access to processed water, I would see no need at all to use the bleach.


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## sirpigeon (Jan 25, 2002)

Thanks for everyones help.I have stopped using the apple cider vinegar and I'll let you know if my pigeon's eggs hatch in another month.I'm sure it was the ACV that caused the eggs not to hatch,hopefully the fertility of the parents will not be permanently affected.


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

You should not need to worry about permanent damage since you stopped using the ACV so quickly. But, to be sure contact your vet and he/she can run a couple test to find out for sure. There are many things can can be done to help repair the damage if you find out soon.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

"There are many things can can be done to help repair the damage if you find out soon."

Really? Like what?

--Ray


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

My Avian vet is pro holistic so I use a lot of that kind of stuff with great results. After blood work is done and your vet determine what kind, if any damage is present, then you would go by the organs that are afected. There are some great ones on Avain Medacine Chest http://www.petmedicinechest.com/ that I use on a regular basis. Systemajuv, helps build the imune system back up, Prozyme helps them digest the food better. 

And there are specifice organ supplements as well that can only be gotten through your vet. It just depends on what they need.
http://www.petmedicinechest.com/


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## sirpigeon (Jan 25, 2002)

Good News! It's been a month since I discontinued the ACV and fertility has gone back up to 100%! I now use Vita Preen in the drinking water. I get it from Foy's.
Thanks again for everyones input







)


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