# Breeding checks



## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

When breeding dark checks will they get darker with each generation. The reason I ask is I have two very dark checks paired (not velvet) and it looks like the babies are going to black.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

As i have said i know very little about color genetics, but i do not think they get darker each generation. You fly homers right? Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I thought it was the opposite?.....Don't they get lighter each generation?


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Also I have A black(velvet)mated to a light check, neither have any pied ,splash ,whiteflights,ect.. but one of the young looks like it's
going to have white flights....so what's up with that. I only have one 
bird in the loft with these attributes,a hen,which was brought in after
the hen had laid.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

yes, they are homers.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I thought it was the opposite?.....Don't they get lighter each generation?


I'm not sure , maybe one of the genetic guru's can help.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I thought it was the opposite?.....Don't they get lighter each generation?


I think that's with grizzles, but I don't know........I'm dumb as a rock about this stuff...........


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I got it you are just curious, i thought you were color breeding! Which is not what you want to do if you are racing. As i said i know little about color genetics. because, you avoid that if you are racing. Dave


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Renee I think your right about the grizzles....I am also...dumb as a rock that is, about this stuff.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> I got it you are just curious, i thought you were color breeding! Which is not what you want to do if you are racing. As i said i know little about color genetics. because, you avoid that if you are racing. Dave


Yes that is correct, just curious.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I race but I love color genetics. If the colors are there I might as well have fun trying to figure out which genes make up the color of the bird. Doesn't mean I breed for it though.

I don't really think they get darker with each generation. But obviously if you keep pairing darker checks to darker checks, they won't get any lighter.
As for the white flights, there's a chance there could be some white hiding somewhere. Or maybe just some genes that were hiding recessively? I don't know a whole lot about white, other than sometimes you can overlook pied markings.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

Lovebirds said:


> I think that's with grizzles, but I don't know........I'm dumb as a rock about this stuff...........


you sound like me , I just take what I get lol


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Nope*



fastpitch dad said:


> When breeding dark checks will they get darker with each generation. The reason I ask is I have two very dark checks paired (not velvet) and it looks like the babies are going to black.


Darker would come from darkening genes like dirty, sooty or smoky or even bronze. There are quite a number of things that can make birds lighter or darker.

In homing pigeons, the gene pool is usually limited as color breeding isn't tops on the list. This usually makes things alittle easier to sort out.

Do you have a picture of the birds that you are asking about? I'm not sure what you have in these dark checks without seeing them and even then maybe won't be certain but a photo might help.

In any case, without any of the dirty genes, checks should not get darker from one generation to another unless they are very light checks in which case they can become heavier checked.

Bill


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Here is mom and dad. Mom is the darker one. I'll try and get some of the babies later.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Mom is t pattern (velvet)*



fastpitch dad said:


> Here is mom and dad. Mom is the darker one. I'll try and get some of the babies later.


If she is homozygous t pattern, babies will all be t pattern velvets as well. If you get anything other than t patterns, this will tell you that she is homozygous t pattern and split for another pattern. This is pretty normal.

Homer breeders tend to call these velvets or blacks as they are as black as you get without other modifiers such as spread, dirty or bronze.

Bill


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I've got a pair exactly like that. Dad is BC. Mom is DC. So far, all three babies are the spitting image of Mom.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Both your birds (Darby's and Renee's) look like velvets/t-pattern to me, so that'd be why all the babies are turning out so black. It's so confusing because homer people call the same thing so many different names. Velvet, "Black", Dark Check, and T-pattern. And then you'll have people who call heavy checks 'dark checks' too. Jeez!


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Ok....whats heavy check. I (which I'm probably wrong) think the "blacks" and "velvets" are the same, and put the dark check and T- pattern in the same cat.

Mom is in between these two but more like the "check" , she's darker but still has markings like that. Just trying to figure this stuff out.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Ok....whats heavy check. I (which I'm probably wrong) think the "blacks" and "velvets" are the same, and put the dark check and T- pattern in the same cat.

Mom is in between these two but more like the "check" , she's darker but still has markings like that. Just trying to figure this stuff out.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

fastpitch dad said:


> Ok....whats heavy check. I (which I'm probably wrong) think the "blacks" and "velvets" are the same, and put the dark check and T- pattern in the same cat.
> 
> Mom is in between these two but more like the "check" , she's darker but still has markings like that. *Just trying to figure this stuff out*.


*Good luck! LOL*
I call a dark check one that is checked and you can see the checks but they're so "checked" that they're ALMOST black. I would call your cock bird above just a BC, but I would call the hen, like mine, a dark check. When you ask the average flyer what color a particular bird is, you'll almost never hear T-pattern, but DC and almost never hear velvet but black. 
At least that's what I would say.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I agree with lovebirds, never heard of the other colors. As i said, i am NOT 
color breeder. Dave


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It isn't real definate*



fastpitch dad said:


> Ok....whats heavy check. I (which I'm probably wrong) think the "blacks" and "velvets" are the same, and put the dark check and T- pattern in the same cat.
> 
> Mom is in between these two but more like the "check" , she's darker but still has markings like that. Just trying to figure this stuff out.


There are many in between appearances in checked and barred pigeons. They can be anything from barless to spread and just about anything in between. Many of these variables come from the birds being hetero for the higher marking and hetero for a lower one as well. Barless is the lowest pattern as far as being recessive to the rest and t pattern is the highest, followed by check and then bar. Spread masks or hides all of these patterns and all spread birds are hiding one of them. Spread is somewhat rare in homers, especially racers and most that people refer to as blacks are t pattern blues (velvets). True black is just covered by spread and is also blue.

There are a number of other factors that can make markings and patterns in the wings but they work in addition to the others mentioned above. Some alter them in a way that makes them nearly unrecognizable. Sooty makes barred birds look like blurry checks and in ash reds, they are often referred to as strawberry.

There is no real designated heavy check, it is more of a reference to a heavily marked check bird. It is still a check. Some do get referred to as light and dark checks. A het t pattern, het check would probably be called a dark check but it is still technically a t pattern bird that carries check or something lower.

Bill


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Bill, you and the rest of the genetic guru's should wright a book on this stuff.
Thanks for the help everyone. I forgot to take a picture of the Mottle baby thats in the other post before I gave it to my friend , but Mom and Dad are on eggs and I'm planning on keeping these to race.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Black is spread blue, meaning you can't see a tail bar. Some racers call t-patterns black because the wings and body may look it...but they have a normal BB tail. They're also called "Blue tailed blacks". T-patterns are probably more commonly called velvets. That's what I prefer anyways, since t-pattern isn't as easy and quick to say  Dark Checks are also t-patterns in most cases.

As far as heavy checks go, it's just a blue check. Some checks have less (light) and some have a lot of them (heavy). It's just for those who want to get more specific I suppose. There's no genetic difference in light, heavy, and normal checks though. Still the same gene.

Even though Bill already said all of this, I still wanted to have some input, haha.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks Becky, I need all the help I can get


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