# Ignorant Neighbor



## Mighty Heart

I have been rescuing pigeons for about 3 years now. In fact the pigeons that I have as pets are the ones that could not be released after recovering.
The day before yesterday, I picked up a sweet little girl who was bleeding profusely from a pellet wound. She was too far gone and I couldn't save her. I have rescued probably 5 or 6 birds over the the 3 years with the same injury. I finally discovered who the culprit was this week. I was grocery shopping where he works and while I was at the register we were doing our normal small chat as neighbors do, when he asked if I feed all "those damn pigeons". I said yes and I rescue birds as well. He replied well your one less today with a look of "I dare you" on his face. I asked if he shot her and he looked back at me agin with "what if I did" on his face. He says the pigeons dirty up the water he puts out for the other birds. I felt sick & angry. I honestly said nothing and went home and cried. He lives across the street 2 doors down. The pigeons (200 some days) stay near or at my house 90% of the time. There are an un-lucky few who stray to what they think is a safe place. What do I do? The flock is huge and growing. It started about 1/4 the size. Now I fear that the pigeons will become a concern to the neighborhood the larger the number gets.


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## Charis

I understand your pain and worry. I have the same issue with a small flock of between 25 Pigeons. It's very important that you feed only as much as the Pigeons will eat at one time, with no food left over. Gradually reduce the amount you are feeding so they still have enough to survive but must start foraging elsewhere to survive. You absolutely don't want to make these birds totally dependent on you.
As heartbreaking and appalling as your neighbor's actions are, I suspect that if he turned you in to the city, he would be supported rather than you and you could be told to not feed the Pigeons at all or if you continue, risk being given a very high fine.


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## Margarret

On the other hand, I believe Phoenix has laws about shooting birds. Others from Phoenix, do you know if they do?

I'm so sorry to hear that this is happening. It is sad beyond words. I won't say what should be done to that guy, I'd get banned from the site for bad language.

Charis is right, you need to back off on the feeding so that the flock doesn't get dependent on you while getting larger and larger. Neighbors can get really nasty about pigeons even though they are feeding other species themselves. Just more of the bad press the exterminator companies have spread in the last thirty years. Hope something can be done about this guy.

Margaret


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## Feefo

I am so sorry. We went through something similar when someone started shooting the feral white doves that we and others were fedding. They were domestic doves that had been evicted after their owner died and were vulnerable...three were found and brought to me and they survived, but one poor little mite was found dying. It was so sad. It was a wildlife crime and the wildlife police were informed but they couldn't find the culprit. Then, this year, someone was seen shooting the doves as they roosted on a church at night, the police were contacted and said it was a cull....

This is a particularly pretty flock, in the perfect location for funerals and weddings to have a natural display of white doves, but even that did not spare them.










I fed the pigeons for years but stopped gradually over the summer. It is a good way of getting them down and identifying those that might need help, but it always attracts more and more pigeons and people will hate them just for being there and in the end the pigeons suffer.

Now I assume that if there are a number of pigeons in any one location it is because there is just enough food for that number and providing more and better food on a regular basis will cause an "aggregation" of pigeons. But I will feed when it is particularly cold, or when there is less food around in the city centre because it is a public holiday.

Cynthia


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## lwerden

Mighty Heart...........I completely understand what you are feeling and growing through. I feed a flock of approx. 100 birds every morning in my driveway. I have had birds poisioned in the past, shot with pellet guns.......and now a glue trap issue.

I have tried as Charis suggests to limit their food, so that they have a good start on the day, but will leave to forrage elsewhere for the rest of their needs. However. there is a group that stays around my house all day.......they never leave......they roost & nest on my back roof. I worry constantly about them. This small group I give a second feeding to late in the afternoon in my back yard.

You must be very careful with the local authorities. As Charis said.......Feeding the birds in most urban or residential areas could result in heavy fines.......the neighbors can even sue you for damages to their property resulting from the birds........they can even place a lien on your house to collect the damages.

The one thing you can do...........If you find another bird that has been shot with a pellet gun.........save the bird........call the police. In most areas it is illegal to use a firearm of any type (including pellet or air guns) within so many feet of anyones house. You could tell the police you know who is using the firearm......they will pay him a visit. However by doing that you run the risk of reprisals........to yourself and to the birds.

It is a horrific situation you are caught in...........you're caught between a rock and a hard place.

The only solution I found for my neighbor with the gun........he sold his house and moved away. Thank God!! 

Go to church, light candles, pray every day that this guy moves out of the neighborhood.

I truly hope your flock will be allright.


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## Charis

There's no way around it...you are in an awful situation and one that could escalate in ways you don't need it too. 
There's at least one meanie in every neighborhood. I think we should have a group concentration on this meanie that he has a change of heart or moves on...


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## eowynroh

How horrible! I'm praying for you and all those dear ones you care for. I grew up in Arizona, though I don't live there anymore. I'm pretty sure the law is the same as it was 8 years ago about fire arms. He is allowed to fire guns like bb guns and pellet rifles only in a residential neightborhood. If he is caught with anything more powerful that that, he will be arrested and fined. 

Lk 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?


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## EgypSwiftLady

lwerden said:


> .
> The one thing you can do...........If you find another bird that has been shot with a pellet gun.........save the bird........call the police. In most areas it is illegal to use a firearm of any type (including pellet or air guns) within so many feet of anyones house. You could tell the police you know who is using the firearm......they will pay him a visit. However by doing that you run the risk of reprisals........to yourself and to the birds.
> .


 Thank you for helping these poor pijs.
I agree with Louise, Charis & cyro51.
It is againist the law to fire a gun, even just a BB gun, in a residental area.
Besides pigeons he could be shooting feral cats because they stalk the birds at his feeders... who knows???
If he does decide to turn you in to the city do you have any records of all the pigeons you helped that were shot? I would make a list, with dates would be great, and have it ready to show the authorities just how many pigeons that you know he's shot.


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## tuxedobaby

im so sorry to hear your dillema!some people are just so damned stupid and ignorant,in the uk,one can get an ASBO (anti social behavoiur order)for feeding birds deemed as "vermin",gulls,crows,pigeons etc.one elderly lady in my town got an asbo for feeding a flock at a disused cinema(now demolished)she challenged the ASBO,appearing in court several times and challenged decision of court(ASBOs are usually given to unruly teens and noisy neighbours here)this lady became something of a local celebrity and was in the newspapers etc,and was admired by some of us(and reviled by the pigeon hater element),one guy who comes into my place of work boasted about shooting pigeons at the dock(where he works)so i told him if i heard of him doing it again i would be writing to his place of work saying he is using a gun while at work(illegal here)


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## corvid

this is so upsetting, to hear it again and again coming from different places and people.
Make me feel like there is no place for us, were are the bad apples and the rest is just perfect society. Makes me cry to hear about your situation cause reminds me so much how i feel.
Try to be more vigilant with your feedings, birds will learn the changes. Cut some feedings for a time , then come back slowly with less and not so often. That way you will have your pleasure, birds their food and maybe not so many will be there.
I wish you peaceful and happy results with that situation.
Nell


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## spirit wings

Mighty Heart said:


> I have been rescuing pigeons for about 3 years now. In fact the pigeons that I have as pets are the ones that could not be released after recovering.
> The day before yesterday, I picked up a sweet little girl who was bleeding profusely from a pellet wound. She was too far gone and I couldn't save her. I have rescued probably 5 or 6 birds over the the 3 years with the same injury. I finally discovered who the culprit was this week. I was grocery shopping where he works and while I was at the register we were doing our normal small chat as neighbors do, when he asked if I feed all "those damn pigeons". I said yes and I rescue birds as well. He replied well your one less today with a look of "I dare you" on his face. I asked if he shot her and he looked back at me agin with "what if I did" on his face. He says the pigeons dirty up the water he puts out for the other birds. I felt sick & angry. I honestly said nothing and went home and cried. He lives across the street 2 doors down. The pigeons (200 some days) stay near or at my house 90% of the time. There are an un-lucky few who stray to what they think is a safe place. What do I do? The flock is huge and growing. It started about 1/4 the size. Now I fear that the pigeons will become a concern to the neighborhood the larger the number gets.


You have so much to give it is a shame this will end, Now that you know how you feel about feeding ferals, I would seriously think about moving out of the burbs where there is plenty of room for man and pigeon, and not have to worry about thinking of others wishes and property. You know they always say follow your bliss......if that is too great of a challenge you could still rehab ones that can not be released and still be doing what you do so well....


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## Grimaldy

Here you go; Phoenix City Code:

Sec. 23-42. Discharging firearms, BB guns and slung shots prohibited; exceptions.
It shall be a misdemeanor for any person to negligently or purposely discharge any firearm, BB gun or slung shot within the City, except:
(a) In necessary self defense.
(b) A law enforcement officer in necessary performance of his duty.
(c) For the purpose of target shooting or practice on a range operated by qualified personnel. Qualified personnel shall consist of either a certified firearms safety instructor, rifle or pistol marksmanship instructor certified by the National Rifle Association, or person designated by a rifle or pistol club, public or private school or military agency.
(d) For the purpose of target shooting on private premises with air, spring or CO2 operated BB, pellet guns or slingshots, providing:
(1) The target area is enclosed in such manner and with materials that will stop the projectiles.
(2) Such target shooting is supervised by an adult at all times.
(3) Any safety precautions recommended by the Chief of Police are complied with.
(e) In an area recommended as a hunting area by the Arizona Game and Fish Commission and approved by the Chief of Police. Such area must be posted as required by the Chief of Police and may be closed at any time by the Chief of Police or the Director of the Game Department.
(f) Where a permit is issued by the Chief of Police.
(g) In defense of property from damage by animals or birds, providing property owner obtains permit from Arizona Game Department or United States Fish and Wildlife Service, and the taking of such animals or birds is properly supervised by the Game Department or the Fish and Wildlife Service or a person designated by either of those agencies to assure the safety of surrounding property owners.
(Code 1962, § 27-17)
State law references: Discharge of firearms, A.R.S. § 13-3107. 

You have his admission. Go file a complaint against him


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## Whitefeather

Mighty Heart said:


> The day before yesterday, I picked up a sweet little girl who was bleeding profusely from a pellet wound. She was too far gone and I couldn't save her.
> I have rescued probably 5 or 6 birds over the the 3 years with the same injury.
> 
> I finally discovered who the culprit was this week.
> I was grocery shopping where he works and while I was at the register we were doing our normal small chat as neighbors do, when he asked if I feed all "those damn pigeons". I said yes and I rescue birds as well.
> 
> He replied well your one less today with a look of "I dare you" on his face. I asked if he shot her and he looked back at me agin with "what if I did" on his face.
> 
> He says the pigeons dirty up the water he puts out for the other birds. I felt sick & angry. I honestly said nothing and went home and cried. He lives across the street 2 doors down.
> 
> * *The pigeons (200 some days) stay near or at my house 90% of the time. *There are an un-lucky few who stray to what they think is a safe place.
> 
> ** *What do I do? The flock is huge and growing.* It started about 1/4 the size. Now I fear that the pigeons will become a concern to the neighborhood the larger the number gets.


Mighty Heart,
* We had a situation exactly like yours in Glendale back in March of '08. We were dealing with *100's* of pigeons roosting at a particular home as well as the two adjacent homes. 

A complaint was filed against the person with the pigeons.
_Allegations_ were made that a neighbor was shooting & poisoning the birds. There was no factual proof presented, that supported the allegations, therefore nothing was done. However there was factual proof the birds were there.

The resident with the birds was _ordered_ to remove them. 
The majority were rehomed to areas where they could reside peacefully. Some babies were taken to a local rehabber. I was able to adopt out the ones I took. Kim was successful in releasing the ill & injured that she took (I believe they have joined her flock) & two non-releasables are living with Shi.

** And your flock will continue to grow as offspring & newcomers are introduced.

The suggestion of cutting back on the feeding is the first, & most important, step. And you'll need to maintain that.
You may want to look into rehoming some of them to areas where birds are being fed & not harrassed.

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Charis

Mighty Heart...I totally agree with everything Cindy has written. If you aren't very careful, this could backfire on you and your beloved Pigeons.
You don't have any factual proof that the neighbor is the one that has shot the birds. If he were confronted by authorities, he would most likely lie and say he hadn't. The authorities would undoubtedly notice all the pigeons and ask you to stop feeding or be fined.
This is a dreadful situation and not a new one to us here at Pigeon Talk and I'm sure will be repeated over and over.


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## RodSD

Sorry to hear about your dilemma. Unfortunately many people are ignorant about pigeons. The media and pesticides company did a remarkable job of making pigeons look bad.

It takes an intelligent person to question assumptions. Unfortunately a lot of people just accept what the media says. I always do my homework when a media says something. People should verify "facts" that are given to them.

Maybe this shooter believes that pigeons are dirty animal so they need to be killed. It is time to give this person some real facts.


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## Jaye

Grimaldy said:


> Here you go; Phoenix City Code:
> 
> Sec. 23-42. Discharging firearms, BB guns and slung shots prohibited; exceptions.
> It shall be a misdemeanor for any person to negligently or purposely discharge any firearm, BB gun or slung shot within the City, except:
> (a) In necessary self defense.
> (b) A law enforcement officer in necessary performance of his duty.
> (c) For the purpose of target shooting or practice on a range operated by qualified personnel. Qualified personnel shall consist of either a certified firearms safety instructor, rifle or pistol marksmanship instructor certified by the National Rifle Association, or person designated by a rifle or pistol club, public or private school or military agency.
> (d) For the purpose of target shooting on private premises with air, spring or CO2 operated BB, pellet guns or slingshots, providing:
> (1) The target area is enclosed in such manner and with materials that will stop the projectiles.
> (2) Such target shooting is supervised by an adult at all times.
> (3) Any safety precautions recommended by the Chief of Police are complied with.
> (e) In an area recommended as a hunting area by the Arizona Game and Fish Commission and approved by the Chief of Police. Such area must be posted as required by the Chief of Police and may be closed at any time by the Chief of Police or the Director of the Game Department.
> (f) Where a permit is issued by the Chief of Police.
> (g) In defense of property from damage by animals or birds, providing property owner obtains permit from Arizona Game Department or United States Fish and Wildlife Service, and the taking of such animals or birds is properly supervised by the Game Department or the Fish and Wildlife Service or a person designated by either of those agencies to assure the safety of surrounding property owners.
> (Code 1962, § 27-17)
> State law references: Discharge of firearms, A.R.S. § 13-3107.
> 
> You have his admission. Go file a complaint against him


There you go. Nohing he is doing is even remotely legal.

I know this is hard for you...but you absolutely MUST do this. I know that it will likely escalate...but....he will keep shooting them if nobody calls him on it. Do you have other people on your block who you would also step up for you ? Can you find anyone else in the 'hood willing to tell the authorities that they have seen him or even just heard him shooting at things ????

I HAD to do this with my neighbors 2 houses down. I tried leaving nice notes. I tried leaving stern notes. I left a note like Grimaldy's...listing all of the local and state ordinances the shooting violated. They kept on doing it. One day, my favorite feral adolescent, Coral...vanished. 2 days later, with the help of my good neighbor, I found her and her mate dead on the evil neighbor's property.

I called the police. They told me to call Animal Care and Control. ACC took it fairly seriously initailly, then backed off. I had to light a fire under them by getting some animal welfare organizations & my municipal animal welfare commission involved. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Long story short, the neighbors were confronted and they have stopped. But they would not have stopped had they not had a law enforcement officer in their face.

In honesty, although I rarely disagree w/ Charis....I think that her suggestion is too lasseiz-fair (sp?). 

1) Contact your police dept and tell them a neighbor is shooting bb gun in public. Tell them he is also shooting wild birds. 

2) If you have an SPCA or ACC in your area, call them as well and tell them the situation.

Keep a record of any and all birds you have found injured in the vicinity. Should you ever find another one shot....get it to one of the above agencies...both to save it, and as evidence.

3) Also, contact any humanitarian/animal welfare agencies in your area (yahoo groups or google search, etc.) Also, find your local Audabon Society and call them.

Isn't that guy from the pigeon book...who runs Urban Wildlife Society...in Arizona ? Do a websearch and find him for advice.

Important: do NOT allow folks to tell you "nothing can be done" or "forget about it". !!!! It is illegal, and therefore enforcement authorities must do SOMETHING about it. Have fortitude...persevere.

Now...here is what happened to me..and it may happen to you. The Police or ACC may say they cannot do anything more than talk to/warn your neighbor to stop. They will likely say they cannot search his premesis or make any sort of arrest or fine unless someone actully has witnesses the act of shooting itself. But nevertheless, you may have to insist, but certainly an enforcement officer WILL talk to him, and tell him that they have rec'd complaints and that it is against all of these laws and that if he is involved in this he will be in trouble next time.

This is why it would help you if you can find anyone else who would give you support or maybe even file a joint complaint. It would help if you could find a guy too (no, sorry, not being chauvanistic...it'd just be a good message to send that it isn't just you, but several folks....including a guy or two). I ended up getting my neighbor to join me and within a week, believe me...while some didn't care, and this really disappointed me about them...many, many on the block who learned what these folks were up to completely supported me..."even though" we were talking about "common" pigeons. Because it was more a cruelty issue than anything else.

Again...I know this sucks for you and I know you'd rather just wish it wasn't happening...but based on his reply, for sure he will keep doing this if someone doesn't call him on it. I know you feel lonely now...like you must fight this alone. But share the story with authorities, neighbors, and animal groups. It is hard and sad to fight alone...but there are others out there who will help you...you just need to find them. Get some allies, in the flesh and via local organizations....do your research on finding sympathetic individuals and groups..... and give it a go. Again, you may have to be a bit insistent with the authorities....but remember, reiterate that it is a public safety issue as well as an animal welfare issue.

Best of luck. Keep us posted. Keep strong.


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## Jaye

...of course, I should also mention the other step you may consider taking, first before the above steps.

If you feel you have some sort of rapport, and if you feel he isn't a complete maniac (although anyone who shoots defenseless animals certanly is)....

You can try to talk....along the lines of "well, you don't want the pigeons around...but I like them...so if you want, I can help you try some things which would keep them away....if you'd agree to stop shooting them. After all, it's much easier just to clap your hands, etc....

(www.hawkbirdscarer.com is a device that I have had success with...better than plastic owls)

....but I dunno...I find that folks like this actually get a sick enjoyment out of doing what they do, and sometimes reasoning does nothing (although if you can gather several neighbors, there is force in numbers)...so it may be better to just play hardball from the start....

it's a judgment call on your part....

We are all with you, here...


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## Whitefeather

Jaye said:


> *Isn't that guy from the pigeon book...who runs Urban Wildlife Society...in Arizona ?* *Do a websearch and find him for advice.*


Dave Roth. 
Here's his website: http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/

Cindy


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## Charis

AZWhitefeather said:


> Dave Roth.
> Here's his website: http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/
> 
> Cindy


Calling Dave Roth is a great idea and do try.
I tried calling him repeatedly while I was helping Cindy with the Glendale Pigeon rescue last spring. He never returned my calls.
I had placed a lot of hope in his intervention and I was very disappointed.

Jay, this situation is my situation. I deal with it every minute of every day very day and it's so stressful, often my body aches from it. I'm so sorry if I have come across as insensitive and lax in solutions because I don't feel that way. I highly value you and I wanted to explain that to you.

Mighty Heart, my advise to you would be very different if you were feeding 10-20 pigeons but the sheer amont of Pigeons that are coming to feed are likely to set off red flags, which could cause any compalint you make toward the neighbor back fire. He may already be thinking about turning you in to the health department. He sounds like an angry person in general. Angry people always direct there hatered and meanness toward the helpless and innocent and in this case, the Pigeons are the perfect target.


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## lwerden

Jaye.......I am speaking from personal experience. When I had the problem with the neighbor using the BB gun and killing birds....I did call the police. My problem went beyond just the birds. This person in his attempt to shoot at the birds actually shot bb holes into 2 of my upstairs windows.....putting my family in jeopardy of injury from the pellets, not to mention that it cost $200 each to replace the windows. The police did knock on his door.......he denied everything......all the police did was fill out a report.

I also contacted Animal Control and the Nevada SPCA......they also did nothing. 

Unfortunately feral pigeons are viewed as flying rats and vermin......not just by the mean spirited average citizen....but in most cities by the police and most animal agencies.

I live this nightmare every day. I actually live in fear of reprisals......I am up at the crack of dawn everyday to put out the seed in the hope that the pigeons will eat quickly and leave before most of the neighbors awake. I have considered completely stopping the feeding, but I can not find it in my heart to do so.

I hate to sound defeatist........however, until a way can be found to change the hearts and minds of the general public as a whole......this situation will prevail from city to city, neighborhood to neighborhood..........and to the many of us who choose to love and cherish these precious creatures........we will continue to suffer along with the birds.

Writing about this breaks my heart.


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## Jaye

lwerden said:


> Jay 3.......I am speaking from personal experience. When I had the problem with the neighbor using the BB gun and killing birds....I did call the police. My problem went beyond just the birds. This person in his attempt to shoot at the birds actually shot bb holes into 2 of my upstairs windows.....putting my family in jeopardy of injury from the pellets, not to mention that it cost $200 each to replace the windows.


That is my exact point....

hauling off with any kind of gun in public or even semi-public is a public safety issue. This is why it needs to be presented as such...along with as an animal cruelty issue.

Please, y'all....read my post again. I said straight out....it may likely get your complaint blown-off initially...but that is why you circle your wagons and get allies. This is why you contact local animal rights groups. You try to contact people who know people in the enforcement arenas.

I was getting nowhere by myself until other folks and organizations took an interest in what was going on...then...viola...the wheels started moving. No surprise. And believe me...I am NOT that type of person. 

I understand, Charis, that you potentially open yourself up to counter-complaints....but the fact is (and the situation I found myself in was): If you just resign yourself to accepting "the way it is" ~ ain't nobody else gonna advocate for these poor lil' birds and nothing will change.

I find, oftentimes, a little "pushback" is all you need. A knock on his door by someone wearing a uniform....the knowledge that he is being watched (not only by the 'pigeon person' a few doors down, but by many others in the neighborhood; folks don't like the idea of a neighbor shooting off a bb gun in the area). Just some notice that the problem has been brought to law enforcement's attention.

So...that's all I can say.

You can go in with the diplomatic approach...and/or the hardball approach. You have options.

The responses to my suggestions thus far are very disheartening. You folks here...you love something...you help 'em. You do everything you can to help 'em. You are empowered to do that. 
I would say....you have a responsibility to do that. But don't let that responsibility scare you. 
For whatever reason, the reality of what is happening has confronted you. Maybe (likely) you didn't wanna know about it...maybe you would rather not know about it. But that is besides the point, because that's not the reality of the situation any longer. That was last week. This is this morning.
To ignore it or say "I can't do anything" or "if I try to do something, it won't work" or "eh, folks tell me it won't get anywhere, so I guess I'll just live with it".....is.... dare I say it....

irresponsible of you.

Do nothing...the result will be nothing....and more birds will be murdered....in the most horrible of ways since, as we all know...bb pellets can't KILL anything quickly...just sadistically slowly. One cannot stand by silently, or even merely commiserate w/ like-minded people ...and do nothing.

Do something...try to do something...and you will have helped our feathered friends.

Best of luck and be strong.


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## corvid

Jay i do see your position and what you want to happen here.
But there is only 2 sites to that reality.
1.If city will come and tell you, that you cant feed the birds any more is against the ordinance and they are there do to the complains of the neighbors, then YOU ARE DONE FEEDING, period. Unless you have money for courts and fines.You can make a hell about the shooting and you may stop that for a time being, but with birds coming someone new will find the way to take away from you , what you love, which is feed them, see them, interact with them.We all get it.You not going to win a war only because you should, or is right thing to happen.
2.Get smarter, so you can keep birds there and enjoy them, but no body even notices , so that way you can have your pleasure and noisy neighbors have there`s. And nobody is shooting nobody that way.
I had here Game and Fish, City, you name it i had it. And was about the so called "protected"birds.When someone complain to city - and they will find big numbers of birds- you DONE HAVING THEM THERE.
So the first thing, what i did , when i got my neighbors complaining, shooting and sending City was ; I STARTED REDUCING THE NUMBERS OF BIRDS COMING, like i said before.
So i can do what i love doing still , and they do come in smaller numbers . SEcond time , when City came they were taking the pictures !!! How many birds is sitting and where .
They went their marry way and I did not got a sign of them. And im feeding and birds do come, but in such numbers, that nobody is complaining anymore. And i think that is , what person , which started this tread wants,she wanna keep her pleasure going.
Nell


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## Larry_Cologne

Saw this on Google News today:

"Conduct disorder"


http://health.usnews.com/articles/h...ain-scans-show-bullies-enjoy-others-pain.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainNews/story?id=6200528&page=1



> Nov. 7, 2008 —
> 
> *Pain May Be Pleasurable for Some Bullies*
> Aggressive Behavior May Feel Rewarding for Some Bullies
> 
> By RADHA CHITALE
> ABC News Medical Unit
> 
> There may be some truth to the notion that bullies make other people feel bad to make themselves feel better.
> 
> A new study published in the journal Biological Psychology used fMRI scans to compare brain activity in eight unusually aggressive 16- to 18-year-old males to those of eight normal adolescent males while they watched videos of people getting hurt.
> 
> While both groups showed activity in the brain's pain centers, the brains of aggressive males, those with conduct disorder, also showed activity in the brain's pleasure centers, suggesting that they may have been enjoying what they were seeing. Normal males showed no such activity.
> 
> "It just dumbfounded us," said Dr. Benjamin Lahey, co-author of the study and professor of epidemiology and psychiatry at the University of Chicago.
> 
> Lahey said he expected an emotionally indifferent response to pain from subjects with conduct disorder, a mental disorder characterized by aggressive, destructive or harmful behavior towards other people and animals and can include theft, substance abuse and sexual promiscuity, according to the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry.
> 
> Instead, fMRI scans showed a strong but highly atypical emotional response.
> 
> Different Strokes
> 
> It turns out that the brain circuitry in people with conduct disorder is different from a neurotypical person's when it comes to pain. ....


Some behavior is abnormal and dangerous.

Perhaps these findings will help lead to better behavior and attitudes among some who find it difficult to control themselves.

*Mighty Heart, *

If you can use this information (perhaps as a back-up), or even without using this information directly, 

you can probably make a good case that *this person's behavior is threatening to YOU AND YOURS *personally and directly.

Even if he did not verbally and overtly threaten you or verbally challenge you, you can say he tried to intimidate you (even though you may not be afraid of even Godzilla or the plague). You may be ten times his size, and someone may laugh at the implication that anyone could frighten you, but that does not mean that your family, friends, neighbors and acquaintances are immune to his threatening behavior. No one, not even Rambo, is on alert 24/7. We all sleep, and are tired, and are not alert at times.

I read of a small old (French?) lady in WWII who killed up to ten(?) German border guards; she stuck a hat pin in the back of their necks below the skull. She was eventually caught when they discovered a speck of blood in the hair of one of the dead soldiers. If I had been one of those soldiers on duty, I would have been leery of even my shadow. This is not a pleasant item for this forum, but it illustrates the point that danger can lurk in unexpected places and show up at unusual times. 

If you felt or perceived his behavior as being threatening or intimidating, you could make this the primary focus of the issue. The contemporary and popular literature reflects the growing consensus that a person who can do and who does needless violence to helpless creatures is cultivating a tendency to do violence to humans. If the person is doing "step one," which is illegal, keep him from progressing to "step two." 

--------


> Pigeons dirty up the water he puts out for other birds.


By spreading microbes in judicious amounts everywhere, birds help other birds and other creatures and even humans maintain an active and healthy immune system.

http://10000birds.com/bird-biodiversity-good-for-humans-too.htm

An interesting article.



> In essence, a healthy, diverse bird population is also good for human health!


And, my last thought, to paraphrase some of the other previous posts, and to put everything into balance:

*"Honey catches more flies than vinegar."
*
Larry


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## RodSD

Is it time to bully band this bully?

It seems to work on pigeons....


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## Grimaldy

One of the most astonishing things that happens to me when I am out feeding ferals, is that some middle-aged, overweight white man will come up to me and try to bully me into stopping. I get the clear impression they think if they holler at me, I should take off running. I conclude that most people think anyone who shows kindness towards birds is some sort of a wimp to be picked on. I always push back and nobody has been able to run me off yet.

I suggest to you Mightyheart that the next time this jerk comes up to you and tells you he is shooting pigeons, slap him across the face good and hard and just walk away. I will bet he thinks about it he next time.


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## corvid

Grimaldy said:


> I suggest to you Mightyheart that the next time this jerk comes up to you and tells you he is shooting pigeons, slap him across the face good and hard and just walk away. I will bet he thinks about it he next time.


LOL Grimaldy, you are one hard cookie.....

Mightyheart , you better be a good runner...LOL 

Nell


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## Whitefeather

Mighty Heart said:


> I have been rescuing pigeons for about 3 years now. In fact the pigeons that I have as pets are the ones that could not be released after recovering.
> The day before yesterday, I picked up a sweet little girl who was bleeding profusely from a pellet wound. She was too far gone and I couldn't save her. I have rescued probably 5 or 6 birds over the the 3 years with the same injury.
> 
> I finally discovered who the culprit was this week.
> *I was grocery shopping where he works and while I was at the register we were doing our normal small chat as neighbors do*, when he asked if I feed all "those damn pigeons". I said yes and I rescue birds as well. He replied well your one less today with a look of "I dare you" on his face. I asked if he shot her and he looked back at me agin with "what if I did" on his face.





Grimaldy said:


> * *I suggest to you Mightyheart that the next time this jerk comes up to you* *and tells you he is shooting pigeons*,
> 
> ***slap him across the face good and hard* and just walk away. I will
> bet he thinks about it he next time.


Grimaldy,
* WHERE in Mighty Heart's original and ONLY post did she mention that this '_suspected_' culprit *came up to her* & *told her he is shooting pigeons*? 

** Suggesting to 'slap this man in the face good & hard', or to touch him in any manner, is placing Mighty Heart in a very dangerous situation, not to mention the possibility of assault and battery charges being filed against her. 
Although the suggestion shouldn't have even been made, I'm sure very few of us would take heed of it. 

Let's stick with suggestions that will help Mighty Heart resolve her current situation.
Cindy


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## Grimaldy

Well you are right AZ that although the jerk was asked if he was shooting pigeons, Mightyheart did not push him for an answer. And he may have been the person who shot the pigeon or he may simply have known about it and decided to claim credit by implying he knew something about it. But the jerk is a neighbor and if it is him he will do it again and he will probably do it in a manner that leaves no doubt it is him or he will openly admit it. 

What then?


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## Whitefeather

Grimaldy said:


> Well you are right AZ that although the jerk was asked if he was shooting pigeons, Mightyheart did not push him for an answer.
> 
> And he may have been the person who shot the pigeon or he may simply have known about it and decided to claim credit by implying he knew something about it. But the jerk is a neighbor and if it is him he will do it again and he will probably do it in a manner that leaves no doubt it is him or he will openly admit it.
> 
> *What then*?


Since it's not clear exactly what role this neighbor plays in all of this, if any . . .
Instead of thinking about 'What then" I would be thinking about 'What NOW' and that would be to begin reducing my large & growing flock by: 
* Gradually cutting down on the feeding.
* Scouting 'safe' sites to rehome some of the birds.
* Contacting organizations that may be able to assist. 
And above all, pay particular attention to what's going on in the neighborhood.

Cindy


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## Grimaldy

I certainly have no quarrel with taking a passive stance in an effort to move the pigeons out of danger, but there is no reason to believe that the effort is going to stop the jerk who wants to shoot them. If someone were to throw a brick through his window one night I am sure it would cause him to ponder the error of his ways.

After all there is only so far you can run.


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## Whitefeather

Grimaldy said:


> I certainly have no quarrel with taking a passive stance in an effort to move the pigeons out of danger, but there is no reason to believe that the effort is going to stop the jerk who wants to shoot them. If someone were to throw a brick through his window one night I am sure it would cause him to ponder the error of his ways.
> 
> After all there is only so far you can run.


Nothing has been proven that this neighbor has done anything at all or is going to do anything at all, so let's just *STOP* with the 'violent means' suggestions. 

Any further suggestions of assaulting anyone, or distroying anyone's property will be deleted. Enough is enough!!

Please feel free to email if you would like to discuss this further. 
[email protected]

Cindy

Additional comment:
In the event evidence _is_ presented that the neighbor does have some involvement in the harming of the birds, then the authorities can take over.


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## jameswaller

*pigeon education*

there are those that praise wildlife,and unfortunately those that donot have the descency to even try to understand them...people either like animals or they donot..you can report such activity(shooting) and hope the law takes your side,..confrontation is what,s needed and point out the error of their ways with education before they kill them all.,..there is an old story about a farmer who taught his dog to quit killing chickens by hanging one around the dogs head ,.. he got the idea!!-i have other idea,s if this don,t work..james waller [email protected]


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## Technobot

Hmm, if it were me in your position, i would tell him that Pigeons need to bathe like all birds do and naturally water WILL GET DIRTY NO MATTER WHO BATHES IN IT.
I would then tell him he is a ignorant fool!

oh yeah, another thing i would do is threaten him with animal cruelty charges if he ever tries it again.

Naturally being me i wouldn't be unnerved if some numbnut tried to challenge me to a "fight" because i am tellin them what they did was vile and low, one punch from me can give someone a very very sore bruise ^^ and a nasty headache, i punch hard.
and have no tolerance for people who torture or make animals suffer out of spite.


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## Grimaldy

Actually AZ has a valid point, violence promotes violence and once initiated it is very difficult to predict the outcome or the consequences. In any event violence should not be the first response to a problem. In some circumstances it may be the only response available, but unless and until that circumstance is reached violence should be avoided as a common sense matter.

My postings were and are prompted by the constant offers and threats of violence from members of the public who disapprove of my feeding feral pigeons. In the course of my travels and speaking with people who share my interest, I have come to learn that others who feed feral pigeons are similarly targeted by bullies, women most frequently and outrageously. I have had women tell me of being manhandled, detained against their will, and verbally abused; I am certain their experiences and mine are not unique. As I said previously pushing back and standing up to the bullies seems to work and seems to provide some degree of respect for the pigeons. At least they get left alone.

I suggest that in situations where members have information of people killing or shooting pigeons, an assertive stance against such people is required. It certainly need not require violence, and in many cases confrontation is all that is needed, but confronting a person who threatens violence is a tricky situation and one which is difficult at best..


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## Technobot

Your neighbor in all honesty i believe he is just being malicious, and spiteful.

i don't recommend hitting him outright, threatening him with the state law on harming birds would be a better idea.

however if he attacks you, NAIL HIM


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## Mighty Heart

*Thanks Everyone*

Thank you all for your input and concern. I will cut back feeding as hard as that will be for me. I am also banding some of my favorites and will ask the man's wife that he spare the banded birds should they visit his yard. I will also ask that he remove his water and feeders for a short while while I cut back on the food so they don't go in the wrong place. Hopefully he will see the effort and be patient.


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## Technobot

I've killed 2 noisy miners before recently, though that was a downright accident.
i even tried reviving them with cpr and mouth to mouth, oh well shock must have killed them.

i buried them with 2 individual stick crosses, that was back when i thought Noisy Miners were Indian Mynas

the reason everybody here is getting rowdy with violent retaliation suggestions is because he did it intentionally to hurt this here birdie lover, which would tick anyone off who sympathises for others.

difference between accidents and intentional.


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## Whitefeather

Mighty Heart said:


> Thank you all for your input and concern.
> **I will cut back feeding as hard as that will be for me.*
> 
> ** *I am also banding some of my favorites and will ask the man's wife that he spare the banded birds should they visit his yard.*
> 
> *** *I will also ask that he remove his water and feeders* for a short while while I cut back on the food so they don't go in the wrong place. Hopefully he will see the effort and be patient.


Appreciate the update Mighty Heart. 

* It is terribly hard. I know, been there done that. 
But in the long run it will be best for all.

** I know you don't want harm coming to any of the birds. One thing you definitely don't want is to make it _sound_ as though it's OK to as long as they aren't the banded ones. I know this is a very difficult situation. I don't mean to come across as being critical. My apologies, if it seems so. 

*** I don't belive you mentioned that your neighbor has feeders & water in his yard. Although they probably aren't intended for the pigeons, they will go where there is food, especially seed. 

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## risingstarfans

I came up with the perfect answer for bad neighbors this year.

*OUT LIVE 'EM*


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