# should I inbreed?



## sky (Apr 26, 2003)

i have a very nice blue check male that is alittle over one yr...I know he wants a female BAD...but i have none as of this second...BUT he might have some nieces on the verge of adulthood soon...since i do want him to only breed with good females, should I keep it in the family? or wait longer until i can get an outside female? any bad side effects of inbreeding? although uncle-niece isnt as close as say brother-sister....


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

lots of great racing lofts inbreed. You just have to be careful how often, and how close in relationship they are.

Uncle/neice is supposed to be a good combination actually. So, weirdly enough, is father/daughter. Mother/son is BAD, as is brother/sister.

And, as previously mentioned, out-cross their young to non-related birds afterwards, to improve your birds.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Very interesting. I had never heard the Mother/Son is bad. We have tried Father/Daughter and are looking forward to seeing how their young do in a few months when the racing starts. We also have mated Sister/Brother and last year is worked ok. One youngster won a race and her brother was exactly 1 minute behind, taking second place and they both continued to do well. But this year the same mating produce 2 birds that the only way I can describe them is "retarded"? They just weren't right, had a hard time flying, were off balance and just had this "goofy" look in their eyes like they weren't sure what was going on most of the time. But their siblings are doing great. A fancier told us that that's the problem with Brother/Sister mating. You either get "good" ones or "bad" ones and you never know which.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Lovebirds:

That is exactly what we experienced with brother/sister pairings -- "dumb" birds -- looked stupid, acted stupid - in fact, I think we lost them just loft flying -- they couldn't remember the way home from down the street!







Both pairings were accidental, actually -- hubby didn't get the eggs moved in time, so we figured we'd see what happened. NOT going to do that one again! LOL

As to Mother/Son -- hubby read somewhere that it was bad. And last year, it was proven to us. We didn't realize that it was a Mother/Son pairing (they were birds we'd bought from someone with 6 other birds, and had mixed up which were related to who). 5 babies -- all five either sickly and died (dispite all efforts to save them), or were lost, again, just flying around the yard.


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## SandyDove (Apr 26, 2001)

What about cousin matings?
I have three sibling birds that all have mates and I am trying to raise whites. Each of the siblings have had at least one white baby (expecting more!) and I was going to start a mini-strain and breed the cousins. Not all of them will be cousin+cousin, some will be mated with outside blood.
Anything wrong with this? 

Also, I ::think:: I have two white brother pigeons (the guy I got them from said they were related but I don't know how close, but their both young - same year I think) and I was considering possibly mating one brother to the other's offspring - a uncle/niece combo. Is this really good, or just okay? If it's not spectacular I'll not do the uncle/niece thing.

Thank you for any and all help. As in the Bible, you are wise to get counsel from many counsellers before making descisions.

SandyDove


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

I also have a bro/sis pair in the breeding loft this year, last year they had two young, they weren't all they great and they never really did much, never even paired up come to think of it..? lol But this year the same pair threw to very nice hens. Inbreeding brings out the good quilties in birds but at the sametime it brings out the bad as well.
It's 100 chance what they'll be!

Ryan


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by SandyDove:
> *What about cousin matings?
> I have three sibling birds that all have mates and I am trying to raise whites. Each of the siblings have had at least one white baby (expecting more!) and I was going to start a mini-strain and breed the cousins. Not all of them will be cousin+cousin, some will be mated with outside blood.
> Anything wrong with this?
> ...


Raising whites is a tricky business. BUYING whites is even trickier.

The recent huge jump in the popularity of whites has created many unscrupulous breeders to breed for the colour (white) only, and what we are left with is a continent full of stupid white homers (US and Canada). 

Uncle/neice might not be spectacular, but it is a good combination, from what my husband has read.

If the brothers are each paired to a "coloured" bird, then those offspring paired together, you are still going to get a mix of white and coloured babies. As you get further down the generations, you WILL get more white babies than coloured, but you will still get the odd one with a coloured feather or a few (I call them "mismarks")

There are certain colours that you can use for breeding that will increase your chances of getting whites. Red Ash (or mealy) is one of the best. White grizzle paired with white has produced about 30% whites so far for us (we're only 3 years into our new breeding program). Red check is next.

I've heard that if you have a white/colour pairing, use the cock bird babies to pair back with a white again to increase white production. The hens (even if white) are more apt to carry the coloured gene, and pass it on to their offspring, even when paired with a white.

WHATEVER YOU DO .... make sure you cross back in GOOD homers every so often, so that you don't loose the homing ability. You can't expect to breed for just white for 2-3 years, and have much good in the way of homers afterwards. It just doesn't work that way.

Oh, and please, BAND your birds. It makes it so much easier to keep track of age, who's paired with who, which pair produces good babies, and which pairs shouldn't be bred together, etc. You'll be doing yourself a favour.


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## SandyDove (Apr 26, 2001)

WhiteWingsCA,
I take it you probably raise whites (judging from your forum name) and I want to thank you for replying. =)
I did have a few questions though . . .
How can you tell a good Homer from a bad?
All my birds are pretty nice birds and I haven't had any complaints about them. But I have one that isn't a very good mother, a cock who isn't very aggressive, and a hen who acts a little tomboyish (if that's how you could describe it).
Almost all my birds are from - or descended from - a breeder in Vancouver. He has been extrondinarily helpful and has given me many birds. Some birds I get from a local feed store, who buys and sells all breeds of pigeons (the birds were banded Homers).
I have been having a lot of luck in raising whites so far. Of course I have the "mismarks" too, but I figure the marks will be eventually bred out because I will keep pairing with whites. God has just been blessing me with numerous whites from parents I wouldn't even THINK of having mostly white babies.

Also, how can I be sure that they have the Homing instinct? Buy some from people who race their birds?

Thank you so much for all who reply - it's such a blessing.

SandyDove


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

actually Sandy, you've hit the nail on the head --- if they race their birds, they have decent homers.

If you are buying from someone who only raises birds, never flying them themselves, watch out.

You can't tell a "good" homer by just looking at it. The proof is in the pudding, they say. LOL Fly the birds, train them out carefully, feed them well. At the end of the season, the birds that come home consistantly and quickly (40 mph is a good speed) are the ones you want to breed from again. The pairs that produce babies who are always hours (or days) late, or who you haven't any of their youngsters left at the end of the summer, don't breed from again -- let them foster eggs from your better pairs.


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## silverwing (Jul 19, 2003)

hi! if you'd ask me, i'd say that in order to avoid terrible side effects and other complications, you shouldn't inbreed your pigeons even though some relations are better to cross with than others


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Line breeding and in breeding has been around for along time. That is how many families of birds have developed. As for mating brother sister. It may be best to mate half brother half sister. Blood not as close that way. But several brother sister mating has and still bring good results. Father daughter mother son. Works well ability to home is bred and also trained. Takesay one pair of good birds that produce good birds. Breed around that line to build afamily. Aunts uncles cousins. Grand parents. then father daughter mother son ect. Selective breeding with records on family line. is a must. To fly tests both the flyers and the breeders if the young have a low percent of ablity repair the birds to different birds. Still no good get rid of that pair. For show or looks its different. breed to a standard or just breed. White for one thing has a tendency to be soft feathered. To fly much the feater qulity should be towards a harder featherd bird So select a hard type of white to build around. White just masks another color anyway. So it takes time to build a family of say true breeding whites. Be reaary to work towards tha Or start withsay plentex birds ect. A horn beak on the whites indicates a more pure white along with horned toe nails. Time makes colr breeding make good birds in flying or showing records recoreds is the key and a sound program Good luck


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## pigeon george (Aug 7, 2003)

the type of breeding you are thinking about has proven to be very good if both birds have good traits many in the pigeon fancy dont like to call this in-breeding since some think of it as inferior but in the bird world it works great also called line breeding mother-son father-daughter good luck


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## SandyDove (Apr 26, 2001)

So cousin matings are pretty good?
I'm thinking of having five pairs. And one of the birds of each pair is from my Sirocco strain (name of the grandsire bird). And then after that every other generation I'll introduce new blood; opposite of breeding the just the offspring to each other.
So it's like this:
In-breed
New blood
In-breed
New blood, etc . . .

Should I out-breed more often or in-breed more to keep the line. 

SandyDove


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## CJ. Thomas (Nov 11, 2002)

I would try, 
Inbreeding
Inbreeding
New Blood 
Inbreeding
Inbreeding
New Blood 
or even,
Inbreeding
Inbreeding
Inbreeding
New Blood
Inbreeding
Inbreeding
Inbreeding
New Blood
Just depends on the birds.
CJ. Thomas


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## SandyDove (Apr 26, 2001)

That probably would be best if I want to keep the line I suppose . . .
Thanks so much!

SandyDove


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## slugmonkey (Nov 10, 2003)

we have great luck with half bro/sis matings also with grand parent/ grandchild matings as well as uncle /nephew type of breedings we just try not to breed too close very often bro/sis or parent/child although on occasion we do do this we take like two sibling birds then mate them outside their family the children are mated to half bro/sis or back to uncle or aunt those birds are mated back to other side as long as you keep switching sides it takes a long time to cause any harm breeding these birds back to grandparents and great grandparents will result in good pairings we keep our bloodlines pure like this but to race we cross them out with birds that are the same type (body or style, distance with distance speed with speed) we breed from proven lines only birds that have won championships are used for foundation birds although we have some birds whose kids arent good racers the children of these birds are either fantastic flyers or great breeders the key to this whole system is records we look back at the end of a season and see where our race winners come from and see what the common thread is a lot of time it might be an uncle or grandparent when you find a bird who turns everything to gold and you breed him to another who does the same you get super pigeons you win consistently with your breeding book there are very few really good pigeons that happen by accident ( unless of course you own a whole loft full of super breeders ) ( which i like to think i do ha ha )


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## jwt (Dec 19, 2002)

hey i know a guy who breeds rollers and he gets some of his best color of a mother/son set.it brings out the ressive side and he gets all his almond and rare colors out of it.


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## slugmonkey (Nov 10, 2003)

I think some matings like this are ok but I also think it matters how inbred the strain was to begin with this is just like anything else rules are made to be broken


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## pigeon george (Aug 7, 2003)

at the risk of adding too many ads here from the old timers near me line line line new has worked best for most and remember hens you can see their color cocks have a hidden color gene and so almonds dont get to washed out breed almond hen back with a black it sounded farce to me but ive seen the results in other coops ecx almonds hey if it worked all the time where would the fun be lol


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## tomcass00 (Jul 31, 2003)

I do nothing but inbreeding and have done it in homers and rollers 
I have found that when I inbreed its best not to breed parents to offspring 
I have and do breed sister/brother but not that often the birds if left in an open loft type environment will choose and they will seldom chose a sibling or parent or offspring.
the only problem with inbreeding is if there is you can wind up getting any color anytime from any pair with little to no repetition of the color your wanting
I have never had any birds with deformities but when inbreeding the birds can and do develope into smaller faster birds.
its said that if the birds are left to continue to inbreed for four generations the birds will begin to revert back to the characteristics of the progenitor of all pigeons the rock dove or common pigeon ie..
the bluebar color no show bird or homing bird attributes.
this is according to most pigeon geneticists and Darwins study on evolution using pigeons as the test species.
I have not yet incurred such a turn of events but then I do bring in extra birds to improve the gene pool.
I have bred white to white out of whites and the have given me splashes the only constant is the inconsistancy of the colors, patterns and even cresting and or muffing if a bird has any undesireable traits or ancestry specimens when inbreeding it is more likely not absolutely possible you will or can get those physical or less desirable traits.


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