# Need Help



## Chilangz (Apr 3, 2008)

Hello,

As I am very bad at genetics, need help from experienced minds.

I have a pair of tipplers (which I term both as Black) but was shocked to see the baby full white. As per me the baby should have been red, as the grand mother was a recessive red.
I am very sure that this pair has not mated with any of the white (have one more pair of whites) but did I change the eggs between 2 pairs (this white pair was also on eggs at the same time). I think I have not changed the eggs, but this thought is running after I saw the baby.

Kindly let me know if there is any possibility of getting white (it has few red feathers on the top of his/her head; very few) baby from both black parents. BTW, the baby is 3 weeks old.

Here is the pic:

Mother
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZY1sJIQbOs57ooKFFR-iNg?feat=directlink

Father
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/29vy3Lvykq0ficvih67CYA?feat=directlink

Baby
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/czm2h_mvBYScpoquWKTUoQ?feat=directlink

Thanks for the help!!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I think the mother is a blue checker and the father is a blue dark checker.
You still can have a white hatchling from this pair if they are split for recessive white, I am not sure on the dominance of the pie genes, some one else with more knowledge would be able to comment on that.

The mother and father has black toe nails and black beak and the hatchling has white toe nails and I think a white beak (yet there are some dark spots as of now).

May be its the egg from your white pair that hatched to this cute fellow..... may be 

Red is not possible with the sole condition that the grand mother was recessive red. It requires two copies to express like any recessive gene and so both male and female should carry it.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi there,

It is definitely possible to get pure white birds from two non-white parents.

The gene responsible for this is called recessive white. Recessive means that any bird can 'carry' the gene which then hides the expression the characteristic. When two of these 'carrier' birds are mated together there is a 25% chance that the baby will receive two of the hidden genes (one from each parent). When this happens, the offspring will express the characteristic.

In this case it means both your parent birds are carrying recessive white, and your baby is homozygous (has two copies) for recessive white.

If the bird does indeed have a few red feathers on the head, I am stumped though. Recessive white should not show any color. Are you sure that the feathers aren't just a little dirty?

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

If both the parents are heterozygous for the color,ie,if we say 'Z' is the dominant color and 'W' is the recessive white .then,if a bird has "ZW",then it will express the color of 'Z',since Z is the dominant color.
so if we mate two "ZW" parents ,then the possible combinations are one 'ZZ',two 'ZW' and one 'WW'.so the 'WW',will be a pure white squab !!!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

boneyrajan.k said:


> If both the parents are heterozygous for the color,ie,if we say 'Z' is the dominant color and 'W' is the recessive white .then,if a bird has "ZW",then it will express the color of 'Z',since Z is the dominant color.
> so if we mate two "ZW" parents ,then the possible combinations are one 'ZZ',two 'ZW' and one 'WW'.so the 'WW',will be a pure white squab !!!


 when you do not follow the standard terms and terminology, it creates a lot of confusions.

The dominant color and its form (heterozygous, hemizygous or homozygous) does not have a direct relation with the rec white gene. So it should not be the ZZ, ZW, WW type representation.

May be someone else could show light on which is more dominant to the modifier of rec white, I am not sure, yet since white is the case of absence of pigment I think its at a very high order in the chain of modifiers.

May be George, Bill or Becky would know.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Chilangz said:


> Hello,
> 
> As I am very bad at genetics, need help from experienced minds.
> 
> ...


So did all four eggs hatch (I mean that of ur whites and tipplers)
How are the other 3 hatchlings looking ?


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## Chilangz (Apr 3, 2008)

I had only 3 hatchlings...........I lost one egg from this checker pair.

Here is the picture of the white pair. Again they are not pure white......the one with more white is the female and the one with more brown/red is the male.
I will post the pics of the babies tomorrow (its 3:18 AM here now and want to sleep badly). 

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YQr-C2z_SOrUJV9J97UAyQ?feat=directlink


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## Chilangz (Apr 3, 2008)

rudolph.est said:


> Hi there,
> 
> It is definitely possible to get pure white birds from two non-white parents.
> 
> ...


I think the feathers were little brownish.......let me confirm it tomorrow morning. They were just few; very light colored.....


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Chilangz said:


> I had only 3 hatchlings...........I lost one egg from this checker pair.
> 
> Here is the picture of the white pair. Again they are not pure white......the one with more white is the female and the one with more brown/red is the male.
> I will post the pics of the babies tomorrow (its 3:18 AM here now and want to sleep badly).
> ...


I think thats a red checker grizzle cock and may be a homozygous red grizzle hen. There is good chance that the baby belongs to this pair, especially if you are doubtful about swapping the eggs.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

sreeshs said:


> when you do not follow the standard terms and terminology, it creates a lot of confusions.
> 
> The dominant color and its form (heterozygous, hemizygous or homozygous) does not have a direct relation with the rec white gene. So it should not be the ZZ, ZW, WW type representation.
> 
> ...


Hi,

At the rec. white locus (the z locus) there are many different alleles, but the two we are discussing are Z+(full color - wild-type) and z (no-color - white).

The z allele is completely recessive and only birds homozygous for the z allele (z//z genotype) will be recessive white, while birds that are heterozygous for these alleles (Z+//z genotype) as well homozygous for the Z+ allele (Z+//Z+ genotype) will be full colored birds. (Be it ash-red, blue or brown). I am sure that George and Becky would agree.

The terms heterozygous and homozygous are applied to all combinations of genotypes at a specific locus and not just to the color series. It is easy to see why the ZZ, ZW, WW terminology used in a previous post in thsi thread would be confusing as the symbols are used for the Z and W chromosomes and I agree they cannot be used used correctly for denoting genotypes.

Regards,
Rudolph


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

rudolph.est said:


> Hi,
> 
> At the rec. white locus (the z locus) there are many different alleles, but the two we are discussing are Z+(full color - wild-type) and z (no-color - white).
> 
> ...


Rudolph my point was rec white allele and color alleles stand different so its not color/color, color/rec white and rec white/rec white.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

What i thought was, if 2 alleles of a bird are having rec-white,then that bird will be white and on the other-hand if a bird has one dominant color allele and other allele is rec.white,then the bird will be colorfull.so homozygous rec.white would be a white bird,whereas a heterozygous bird would be a colored one. Please Correct me,if i am wrong.....!!!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

boneyrajan.k said:


> What i thought was, if 2 alleles of a bird are having rec-white,then that bird will be white and on the other-hand if a bird has one dominant color allele and other allele is rec.white,then the bird will be colorfull.so homozygous rec.white would be a white bird,whereas a heterozygous bird would be a colored one. Please Correct me,if i am wrong.....!!!


You are right on the result  but the usage "on the other-hand if a bird has one dominant color allele and other allele is rec.white,then the bird will be colorfull" creates a little confusion, especially for a person like me who is still in the basics.

It creates an impression that the color and rec white are different alleles in the same loci. A male pigeon can have two alleles for rec white and at the same time two alleles for color also. Believe I am not creating further confusions


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

sreeshs said:


> Rudolph my point was rec white allele and color alleles stand different so its not color/color, color/rec white and rec white/rec white.


We're agreed on that. The color series and the recessive white alleles separate (on different chromosomes in fact - one being sex linked the other not). No matter what color alleles the bird carries it also carries two alleles at the z locus.

The point of my post was just to add the correct symbols as you requested. I also believe that the discussions are easier if everyone uses a standard. ;-)


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

.......i think George,will be able to help us and enlighten more about it


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## Chilangz (Apr 3, 2008)

oh!! These genetics are tough...........i can see them bouncing off from my head. 
Will be posting the pic in a while.


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## Chilangz (Apr 3, 2008)

Here are the pics from the white pair (not exactly white)........

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/V8e_cNPIlq1mgjGcZDLUVA?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Q5fmGZp_OL_LNKdnTSWH0Q?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/amClY7Ai3lJ09Mxt1MUDAg?feat=directlink

I also have a strong feeling the white baby is from the black pair, but nothing as per theory but only my gut feeling.
Hope its true...


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I have a gut feeling that the hatchling in that second link in the above post is from the black pair. Its tail bar is not visible but might be later or a clear photo focusing the rump area might be able to say more, I think that bird is like the cock bird of the black pair.
Just gut feeling, if your, other pair is split for blue it might be still possible but somethings tells me its not


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