# Heellpp



## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ive found a pigeon on the street that cannot fly, I believe she is female. (I took her because a flightless pigeon in front of a school full of harmful kids...I go to that school so I should know...doesn't last long...) I cant see where the problem is, both wings are unscathed, yet she cat fly and flips over when she walks...Im hoping for a full recovery like with my other rescue pigeon, November...can anyone tell me her problem?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for helping this bird, she definitely is lucky you came along.

Not being able to fly can be caused by hunger, disease, infections....all treatable....she may have more then one issue going on...

Has she pooped?

Please follow this link first and foremost:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822.

The masters of (first responders  )rehab should be along anytime....


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Can you post up a photo of your new rescue, as well as a photo of any fresh droppings, gently open her mouth and have a look inside for any yellowish/cheesy looking growths, how does she feel in your hands, light feeling?.. does her breast bone feel sharp, or is there fairly well filled in on each side? Hold off on food for a bit. but follow the link that Treesa provided for the hydration fluid and see if you can get this little one to have a drink, here is a link on how:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11

Karyn


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Karyn,

FYI I just added that post to the basic steps thread...for everone's convenience.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She fears being picked up and struggles, bites, and kicks, once i let her go she twitches the left wing repeatedly, she is quite light but I didn't get to look at the inside of her mouth, and I don't think she has pooped in the past 24 hours..


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Still twitching..


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Has she had anything to drink?

PLEASE follow link displayed above, she can die of dehydration and hunger before we figure out what the issue is.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

thanks for the link  , Scourge hasn't drunk anything but I do not have an eye dropper and she doesn't drink, she still cant walk....she eats, and is warm, the environment is quiet other than some quiet noise from my other pigeon.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> thanks for the link  , Scourge hasn't drunk anything but I do not have an eye dropper and she doesn't drink, she still cant walk....she eats, and is warm, the environment is quiet other than some quiet noise from my other pigeon.


Try and get her set up in a "donut", like in the link below, to get her comfortable and offer her support, you can place a water dish within easy beak reach for her. Keep trying with the water in a small deep dish (best if just a tad warm, a bit above room temp), as in are in the instructions in the link I posted.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6

If she will not drink, you can use the eye dropper, wrap her in a towel, "burrito" style, where she is the filling, with her head poking out the end, this will give you much more control over her. Make sure her head is slightly tilted downward, and you call slowly dribble water to the side of her beak, a few drops at a time for now. Each 20 drops she does consume, make sure you are counting what she gets, will equal approximately 1mL of fluids, she should get 5mL of fluids 4-5 times a day. Some photos would help a lot, here is how to post them:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525049&postcount=15

Karyn


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

November-X-Scourge said:


> thanks for the link  , Scourge hasn't drunk anything but I do not have an eye dropper and she doesn't drink, she still cant walk....she eats, and is warm, the environment is quiet other than some quiet noise from my other pigeon.


What is she eating? If she is eating she should be drinking.

Is her breast bone sharp?

Just continue to keep her warm, and in a calm/quiet environment. Try to get her to drink from a spill proof bowl of water.

The twitching means she is annoyed.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ive gotten water in her!! i wet seeds and she ate!! she needs more though...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

her breast bone is not sharp...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

she doesnt stay in the donut, or drink!!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for helping this bird.

Sounds good..any poop yet?

Please don't keep any wet seeds lying around after an hour, it is bad for her...as it starts getting moldy and will kill her.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

success!!!! amazing!!! thank you!! She drank a whole Milliletre!!! five now!!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

the seeds are gone and the eye dropper and burrito thing...she loved it!!! i have replaced her seeds, pictures coming!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

*Pics!!*









By malua at 2011-05-13









By malua at 2011-05-13









By malua at 2011-05-13


Sorry if theyre not good, its pretty dark here in toronto now and I didnt want to scare her with flash...also these are IPhone4 pictures...and Scourge is in a bigger cage now, with soft nice lining ill post her first poop soon!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> the seeds are gone and the eye dropper and burrito thing...she loved it!!! i have replaced her seeds, pictures coming!


Good, but again, really need to see some photos of this little one and also very important you also post up photos of anything that she poops. I can not view the photos you tried to post.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NXS, I know you are doing your best, but we need to do a little better for her. The aquarium is fine for now, but please clean out all the old dirt in there and you can use an old towel for her or some old cotton fabric with some paper towels on top. The photos at least answer the question that this is indeed an adult bird, looks to be ill, not ure with what yet, but she will know how to eat and drink on her own, but may be a little in shock of her new surroundings and shy, so place a water dish in with her. Don't really need better shots of her right now, but need good, clear, close-ups of what she is producing in the way of droppings, like in this link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=137089&postcount=20

I have helped a few people in Toronto before and have a few links where you can get some meds for her if we need them.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

and now drinking by her own accorddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

she is in a different better cage, there is ventilation, and it is lined with towels, it is large and she has vita dove and pigeon food, she recently drank (on her own) and now tries to move around! she pooped and those photos will probably come soon. the poop looks healthy, not too green and quite nice and solid!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Also, from the look of her I want to switch from water to re-hydration fluid, here is how to make it:

_To 1 liter of water add 2 1/4 level tablespoons of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of salt and 1/8 teaspoon baking soda (bicarbonate of soda). This will equal the same calorie count as Pedialyte. And if you want it to be even a little closer to Pedialyte, you could add 1/4 teaspoon of a salt substitute "No Salt" which is potassium chloride, just check the label and make sure it say potassium chloride as the ingredient._

She very well may start to drink on her own shortly, but I want to get about 10-15mL worth of this hydration fluid into her for the evening, so every 2 hours give her 5mL more of this. And also place a dish of the fluid in her aquarium for her.

You can do one more thing before giving her any more fluids, can you feel her crop area, this is at the base of her neck area/top of chest, and see whether it is flat feelng or feels like it has contents, could feel a little like small beans in a bean bag if it does.

OK, good, she started to drink!

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

*More, Better Pics!*



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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

A much better set up for her, one more suggestion right now would be to cover/drape the top and three sides with a large towel, or old bed sheet, so that she feels like she is in a "cave", with only the front open. She will feel much more secure like this and may relax a bit more.

Did you feel her crop area?... flat?... little things inside? 

See if you can get a better shot of the dropping, with a little more light.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I will feel her crop, and have covered 3 sides of the cage, but I wont touch her right now because she is sleeping and I think rest is important right now...I will water her and feel the crop as soon as she wakes...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I will feel her crop, and have covered 3 sides of the cage, but I wont touch her right now because she is sleeping and I think rest is important right now...I will water her and feel the crop as soon as she wakes...


OK, let her rest a bit and make up the hydration fluid instead of water. While you have her out, we might as well give her a good going over to see if there is no physical injury you can detect. I want you to start by wrapping her burrito style and gently open her mouth and have a look inside for any yellowish/cheesy growths, what we want to see is nice pink everywhere, no growths. 

I then want you to go over her body and look for any cuts, scrapes, scratches or wounds, they may be small so take your time, I then want you to feel her wings and legs for any breaks, or swellings. You may not really know what things are supposed to feel like, this is OK, you have one wing to compare the other to, and the same for the legs. So what you are doing is feeling each side to basically make sure the other feels the same, if one leg feels different, this will need further investigation. Use the tips of your fingers to slowly feel along and probe each wing and leg, comparing one side to the other.

Then re-wrap her in the burrito and give her a few minutes to settle down from the exam before giving her hydration fluid again.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

thank you, ill give her 10 more minutes and examine her, i have the fluid ready and now just need to examine her and feel the crop


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

here goes...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I got quite a bit in her and I examined! Her crop does have things in it, her feet look nice and pink, no missing toes, fine good nails, her wings, one has a small scratch. She has some also very small scratches on her body. Her mouth! I just couldn't open it without hurting her! I was holding her with one hand and looking with the other and she was holding that little (healthy looking) beak of hers tightly shut other than when she was gulping down the fluid!! She has stumbled to the back of the cage and is now resuming her nap, while I replace her water.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I got quite a bit in her and I examined! Her crop does have things in it, her feet look nice and pink, no missing toes, fine good nails, her wings, one has a small scratch. She has some also very small scratches on her body. Her mouth! I just couldn't open it without hurting her! I was holding her with one hand and looking with the other and she was holding that little (healthy looking) beak of hers tightly shut other than when she was gulping down the fluid!! She has stumbled to the back of the cage and is now resuming her nap, while I replace her water.


OK, we need to get your little one started on some meds ASAP. Here are two links to stores in your area that should have what we need. The first is called Triple-Sulfa by API and the second is called Metroplex by Seachem, pick them up, and also a 1cc syringe, the kind without a needle attached, I will help you get her dosed. I can't emphasize enough this needs to happen as early tomorrow as possible. Call and make sure they have them on the shelf.

http://www.menageriepetshop.com/
http://www.bigalscanada.com/Stores/Locations/Scarborough/scarborough.html

I want you to withhold any food for this evening, just supply her with the hydration fluid and I want you to check her crop first thing in the morning and see if everything that is in there has been processed. It would be good if you could post a photo (nice and clear and well lighted) of her over night droppings. Good job,

EDIT: You wouldn't happen to have any antibiotics around your place for you or any other pet you may have?


Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'm taking her to the vet soon, maybe monday, and I will try to get the meds, what exactly do they do? I also have removed her food...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I'm taking her to the vet soon, maybe monday, and I will try to get the meds, what exactly do they do? I also have removed her food...


You mentioned your rescue has scratches, which could mean that she was attacked by a predator, most likely a cat, and predator attacked birds should be put on a course of certain kinds of antibiotics to prevent a deadly systemic infection they can get from such scratches/wounds even if the injuries themselves do not look life threating, the first drug, the Triple-Sulfa will help prevent this and treatment should start within 48 hours of the attack, as if the infection starts, and takes hold, late treatment with antibiotics will be of no use, and the bird will die. 

The second medicine, Metronidazole, is to treat for a protozoa infection pigeons get, called canker (proper name; trichomoniasis), which causes them to become weakened and can slow down a pigeon enough to where they become vulnerable to predators. We do not know for certain that this bird has this, but Metronidazole is a very safe drug, so it is prudent most times to treat for canker, as a precaution, especially when their droppings look off.

You have to be careful with vets, make sure that if you do go to one that they are familiar with treating birds and that you say this bird is a pet, as in many cases vets are not allowed to treat feral/wild birds. Also, if for some reason the vet recommends PTS (put to sleep) for this bird, for any reason, please get the reasons why, take the bird home and brief us, before this kind of decision is made.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Should I return her food? I'm trying to water her but she stumbles to the back of the cage where I do not reach  I'm getting the meds very soon


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Should I return her food? I'm trying to water her but she stumbles to the back of the cage where I do not reach  I'm getting the meds very soon


Did you examine her crop to see if it emptied and can you post the photos of her overnight droppings as asked?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I checked her crop and It has emptied, as for the droppings, she did not poop during the night


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I checked her crop and It has emptied, as for the droppings, she did not poop during the night


That the crop has empties is good, that she has not passed droppings, this is not so good, are you sure, sometimes they will go in the corners or at the side of the cage so they can sometimes be missed, have a good look.

You wouldn't be able to get an old brick, like they build houses with, or one of the concrete pavers they use to make walkways with? They like to perch on these and it makes they more comfortable to pass droppings.

Please feel her rear area, around where her droppings come out, does it feel swollen in any way, slightly pushed out, or flat and firm?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I've gotten the brick, and the corners...Several poops, Images on the way!!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I just might be able to go to the menagerie shop on parliament...all nearby vets and shops didn't have it so Ill try to make the menagerie shop today...do you know approximately how much the meds cost?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I just might be able to go to the menagerie shop on parliament...all nearby vets and shops didn't have it so Ill try to make the menagerie shop today...do you know approximately how much the meds cost?


Not sure, but should be under $20, also they seem to do pets other than tropical fish, might be an idea to pick her up a bag of pigeon/dove mix, or even wild bird seed. If you get wild bird seed, take out all the larger food items for now, black/or striped sunflower seeds in the shell, whole/ large pieces of corn, peas and so on, leave only the smaller seeds for her.

Please try and get the meds as soon as you can, don't forget you also need a 1cc syringe, without an attached needle.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the photos, glad she is producing droppings OK. The meds could be a little more than the $20 I quoted you, as stores are not sometimes as competitive as web pricing, but should not be much more, just call and confirm pricing with them on both meds.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

ok, I'll call, I also already have pigeon food, as I have two of them, and ive removed the large bits, calling now...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

not picking up


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> ok, I'll call, I also already have pigeon food, as I have two of them, and ive removed the large bits, calling now...


Here are the instructions for mixing and giving both meds, they can be given at the same time, twice a day. If you by chance picked up something other than the two specific meds I name, do not use, wait for further instructions.

Get a shot-glass and place 2 1/2 scoops of the Metroplex (Metronidazole) into into it, then to this add 5mL of pancake syrup, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir again and you will have a 5% (50mg/mL) suspension to dose with. The 5mL is equal to 1 cooking teaspoon (it must be a cooking teaspoon not a common flatware spoon, or use the 1cc syringe 5 times, to the 1cc mark to measure the syrup). Give her 0.30cc (15mg, this is the third line one a 1cc syringe, for reference this will be about 6 drops) and then same every 12 hours for the next 7 days and well reassess then. Stir very well each time you draw a dose and refrigerate between use.

For the Triple-Sulfa:

Each small, individual packet in the API box contains 1000mg of pure Triple-Sulfa med, I want you open one of these packs and dump it on something the glossy magazine cover again. Divide the little pile of Triple-Sulfa (TS) evenly in half so you will now have two piles of 500mg each, use a credit card or a business card, then put other half back in the pack and put away.

I want you to get the shot-glass again, or a very small container and add 10mL of pancake syrup into it, this will be 2 level teaspoons, scrape it all in with your finger (1 teaspoon = 5mL, use a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware teaspoon, as mentioned before). Now with the half pack of the Triple-Sulfa you have set aside (500mg), add this into the 10mL of pancake syrup and stir very well in, cover and let sit for 20 minutes, stir very well again and it will be ready for use. You now have a 5% TS suspension (50mg/mL) to dose with.

You will want to give once more 0.30cc (third line of the 1cc syringe, roughly 6 drops) of the TS every 12 hours as well, this will be 15mg each time. Again, make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med each time you use it and keep it in the refrigerator between use. Just gently open the bird's mouth and place 1-2 drops at a time in the front of his mouth and allow him to tongue it down for both meds.

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

I'll be keeping a close eye on your thread in case you have concerns or questions. Also the above dosing is for a guessed at weight of 300g for her, if you have a scale (or can borrow one) and can get an accurate weight for her, we can fine tune her dosing.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> not picking up


Just busy I'm sure.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ok, thanks for the instructions I have syrup, a nedleless syringe, and triple sulfa. The Metroplex wasn't found because it is apparently illegal here in Canada, but I got something similar, I won't use it unless I get an Ok. Here are the ingredients; metronidazol (active ingredient), sodium chloride, synthetic polymers, and a chelating agent...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Ok, thanks for the instructions I have syrup, a nedleless syringe, and triple sulfa. The Metroplex wasn't found because it is apparently illegal here in Canada, but I got something similar, I won't use it unless I get an Ok. Here are the ingredients; metronidazol (active ingredient), sodium chloride, synthetic polymers, and a chelating agent...


This is not true about The Metroplex, other forum members have purchased this med in Canada, in Toronto, call the other link, Big Al's, as I think this is where they both went to. Right now get the Triple-Sulfa started and call the other store while they are still open to confirm. The other medicine is Metro+ by Hikari (Health Aid) you can not use this.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'll reurn the metro plus, and have given Scourge approx 2.5 milliletres of the T.S., she spilled the other .5 out, I'll contact Big Al's


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I'll reurn the metro plus, and have given Scourge approx 2.5 milliletres of the T.S., she spilled the other .5 out, I'll contact Big Al's


Please clarify this, I think I know what you mean, but need to confirm, you were to give her 0.30cc, which is to the third line on a 1cc syringe and is 6 drops. I know when medicating small amounts, with a small syringe, it can all seem a bit confusing, especially placing the decimal point, but we need to be on the same page. If you are ever unsure of something don't guess, ask, I check the threads I am involved with multiple times a day, you should not have to wait long for a reply.

Did Big Al's have the Metroplex?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

it was too late to call, but I'll try early tomorrow. And yeah, I meant that I gave her 0.30cc, but then she spilled a little on me, my computer, and herself.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> it was too late to call, but I'll try early tomorrow. And yeah, I meant that I gave her 0.30cc, but then she spilled a little on me, my computer, and herself.


I figured this is what you meant, but I just want to hear you confirm this as a precaution. Just so you know, each drop is about 0.05cc (2 drops to each 0.10cc), so if you spill a drop or two, I want you draw up the drops that were missed from the bottle, right then, and give them, so she is getting full dosing.

Let me know how you make out tomorrow with the Metroplex, and did you put in the smaller seeds for her, along with her water dish?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She hasn't been eating too much, but I think that I've cleared most of the large seeds out, her water is fresh and she is resting. I will water her tomorrow as she has drunk sufficiently today. At 4:24 in the morning I'll medicate her again and if its open, I'll call Big Al's and get the meds. She sleeps a lot but generally doesn't move, because she has not bettered with the walking. Her cage is covered on three sides and the top so that she feels secure.

How am I doing? 


Also, I think that some of her scratches may have come from other pigeons as before I took her I witnessed a huge male come and either try to mate with her, or more likely attack her.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> She hasn't been eating too much, but I think that I've cleared most of the large seeds out, her water is fresh and she is resting. I will water her tomorrow as she has drunk sufficiently today. At 4:24 in the morning I'll medicate her again and if its open, I'll call Big Al's and get the meds. She sleeps a lot but generally doesn't move, because she has not bettered with the walking. Her cage is covered on three sides and the top so that she feels secure.
> 
> How am I doing?
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are doing just fine, you can also break up a piece of whole wheat bread into very small pieces, lightly coat them with a bit of fresh oil oil, to keep them from getting too dried and hard and offer these too. Hard to say just what is wrong, but with her on both of these meds we will be treat for a good number of infections that could cause her to present as she is. Then hopeful with some time and care, she will make her way back to health, do try and get the Metroplex as early as you can Sunday and get her started on this as well.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Shes watered, and I feel terrible because every time I hold her I can feel her little heart beating like crazy  she seems to be scared of me because of how often I have to grab her in the middle of resting, also, because she can't walk, she also can't position herself properly and usually has her head down and her tail and wing feathers up  Feel soo badd!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

also someone on another forum mentioned something about her having a strange smell caused by starvation...she does O_O


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Shes watered, and I feel terrible because every time I hold her I can feel her little heart beating like crazy  she seems to be scared of me because of how often I have to grab her in the middle of resting, also, because she can't walk, she also can't position herself properly and usually has her head down and her tail and wing feathers up  Feel soo badd!


you can make her a doghnut shaped sitting place..by putting rice in a long sock and tie the end up..make a donut shape and put her in the middle..that may make her more comforable.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

also, she always flips her head over, im scared...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

also, she doesn't stay in the donut...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

she usually can't get to her food bowl so I hand feed her...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

If she won't stay in the donut, don't worry about this, leave it in and sometimes on their own they discover its a pretty comfortable set up, sitting in it. Just make sure she has seeds and water at all times and hand feed her right now to supplement her nutrition, it would be really good if you could get an accurate weight on her, it would tell us a lot about her body mass/condition. Once the meds start to work and she getting some decent food in her, she will start to smell better. Did you get the Metroplex?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I couldn't get the Metroplex because it is so far, but I am DEFINITELY getting it tomorrow. I recently medicated her, and noticed that after a within the past hour, with a lot of food, she has begun smelling a little less!! She also has begun righting herself when she falls, and eats on her own! Good signs! Scourge doesn't seem to fear me as much as before and co-operates much more when medicating. I'm getting a good feeling from her


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I believe that Scourge has P.M.V. disease, because she twists her head when distressed  Is this disease deadly? And if so, how do I stop it?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I believe that Scourge has P.M.V. disease, because she twists her head when distressed  Is this disease deadly? And if so, how do I stop it?


NXS, she could possibly have PMV, but there are a few bacterial infections that can mimic some of the same symptoms, so we may have to wait a bit and see. We have a member who does have quite a bit of experience with PMV pigeons and after we get her stabilized and medicated for a few days, we may get a better idea just where your bird is at and I'll ask her to have a look in on your thread. Some encouraging mentions in your post, glad she is starting to respond to your care. Please do try and get the other med, so we can her full treatment started. Just so I am clear, you did call Big Al's and they do have the Metroplex, it was just a little further than you were able to travel today, right?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Yepp, but I will for sure be able to go tomorrow


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

*More Scourge...*



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The first is Scourge distressed, next one is me feeding her


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Her left eye...she is always winking and it looks like there is something wrong with it, I'll try to get a picture...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Her left eye...she is always winking and it looks like there is something wrong with it, I'll try to get a picture...


You can bathe/rinse the affected eye with warm saline, 1 teaspoon of salt to 1 liter (quart) of warm water for now.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I did her eye. For the whole day she has been lying on her side...I don't think that is good...she eats and has been drinking a lot, but doesn't seem to be able to stand...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I did her eye. For the whole day she has been lying on her side...I don't think that is good...she eats and has been drinking a lot, but doesn't seem to be able to stand...


NXS, try again to get her set up in a towel donut, I posted the link for you in post #9 in the thread, for support or use a folder/rolled towel to prop her up, do your best to not let her lay on her side, but can you post a picture of her laying on her side as well, before trying to arrange her up? If she is eating and drinking, and producing poops, then we'll continue to support her, including hand feeding if needed, to see if we can get her through this.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I just ca't seem to prop her head up...I don't think shes doing very well...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I just ca't seem to prop her head up...I don't think shes doing very well...


Get her wrapped up in a towel, support her head for now, could be we were just too late getting her the help she needed, the thing is with Pasteurella infections, late treatment with antibiotics will not stop the infection from killing the infected bird, if this is what is wrong. How is her breathing, count how many breaths a minute she is taking, in-out/up-down, count as one breath.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I don't think her number is good...44 breaths a minute


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I don't think her number is good...44 breaths a minute


Normal for them is around 28-32, I thought you were going to tell me a number a good deal higher than this. Do not hand feed her anything, keep her wrapped up/supported in a towel, every few hours you can give her 5mL of the hydration fluid and meds of course. It's kind of out of our hands right now to a great extent, we can only do what we've been doing and wait.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

O.K! I will try to do my beloved Scourge anything for her to live! she just won't untwist her head!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> O.K! I will try to do my beloved Scourge anything for her to live! she just won't untwist her head!!


NXS, one of the considerations, with birds as ill as your Scourge, is that they can sometimes have multiple issues all at once. Where they could have canker, or PMV, making them vulnerable to a predator attack and then end up being attacked, manage to get away, but then are at risk of developing an deadly infection from the attack. This just supposition, but a real possibility, so we can just do our best to manage the symptoms, treat with meds for possible infections that they could have and see what happens. With the severe head twisting, she certainly could have PMV and there are anecdotal reports that calcium has been of benefit with some of the symptoms, such as torticollis (head twisting) that Scourge is suffering from.

There would be no harm in trying some calcium supplementation with her to see if it helps. You would need to pick up some Caltrate tablets with Vitamin D, the are 600mg tablets and you would give her 1/8 or so of a tablet, you can "pop" it like in this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow . You can also give her some sugar/honey water for some energy, 5mL (1 teaspoon of either to 60mL, 2 oz of water) and give her 5mL at a time, you can alternate doing this with the hydration fluid for tonight.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Shes been pooping well!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Shes been pooping well!


This good to hear. Let's see how she fairs overnight and plan from there.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

thanks, I'll get her calcium tablets, and I've given her sugar water


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

shes been eating and drinking well, and even responds to her name! I have gotten the Caltrate, 600mg per tablet  giving to her now...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NXS, I was hoping Scourge would rally, but with these kind of cases you just never know, still touch and and go right now, but at least she sounds much better today. Did you start the Metronidazole for her? Remember, just a piece of a Caltrate tablet, 1/8th or so.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

she ate the right amount, 1/8, but just wont open her little beak!! I had to mix it with a little of her food and hide it so she ate! I'll post some pics after of something and I need you to tell me if this is canker. How do I bathe her?!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> she ate the right amount, 1/8, but just wont open her little beak!! I had to mix it with a little of her food and hide it so she ate! I'll post some pics after of something and I need you to tell me if this is canker. How do I bathe her?!


OK, I'll wait for the photo, but did you get the Metronidazole? Don't worry about fully bathing her right now, too stressful for her. If she is soiled/dirty underneath, you can get a shallow pan of warm water water, sit her in and wash her back area, then dry her with some paper towels or Kleenex, you can also use a warm, damp cloth to wipe her elsewhere.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'm having someone deliver the medicine today...should be here soon..


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She Grooms Herself For The First Time IvÉ Ever Seen!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She hasn't untwisted her head for the past 2 days  how many times a day do I give the caltrate? She even eats upside down


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> She hasn't untwisted her head for the past 2 days  how many times a day do I give the caltrate? She even eats upside down


You are going to give the 1/8 piece of Caltrate once a day, three days in a row, and then every second day until the other five pieces have been given. How is the picture coming that you mentioned before and did the Metronidazole come and have you started it yet?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

metrostuff comes at 11pm, in 1 hour, and I've tried various times to catch the pic of her beak, but she keeps moving!! I'll get it soon. The canker-stuff is on the outside, and just a little...maybe its just dry medecine, but ill photo it


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> metrostuff comes at 11pm, in 1 hour, and I've tried various times to catch the pic of her beak, but she keeps moving!! I'll get it soon. The canker-stuff is on the outside, and just a little...maybe its just dry medecine, but ill photo it


Before taking the photo, get her wrapped up in a towel and gently clean up the mouth area, so we know what-is-what, as best we can. Also, I forgot to mention with the persistent episodes of torticollis she is experiencing at present, best not to leave a water dish in her cage when she is not being observed and supervised, if she is still drinking on her own. We don't want to risk her head ending up in the water dish and her drowning. Get the Metronidazole mixed up and her dosed when it arrives tonight.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I no longer leave a water dish for her as she doesn't drink, but I run home from school during lunch and water her, as well as once hen I wake up and three times later in the afternoon. She now has enough strength to bite me!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She seems to be doing very well and is gaining more strength by the minute!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> She seems to be doing very well and is gaining more strength by the minute!


Sounds good. Keep doing what you are doing and keep the meds and Caltrate up. Photos of the mouth area?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I've got the Metroplex!!! Scourge will be better very soon! The only things she can't do is untwist her head or walk


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She is doing amazing!! She stands (with a little help) untwists her head and tries to walk! Once she flipped over and I noticed many dried, poopy feathers. all plastered with crap..So I trimmed them off. They are down feathers, and they'll grow back soon. Still, I'm amazed at her wonderful recovery so far! just a few days ago she seemed doomed, yet now, shes looking so great!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> She is doing amazing!! She stands (with a little help) untwists her head and tries to walk! Once she flipped over and I noticed many dried, poopy feathers. all plastered with crap..So I trimmed them off. They are down feathers, and they'll grow back soon. Still, I'm amazed at her wonderful recovery so far! just a few days ago she seemed doomed, yet now, shes looking so great!!


Glad to her Scourge is making positive progress, especially good to hear her is is acting better is she feels to try and walk. NXS, remember a few days ago you asked about cleaning her up, and I posted how, here's the post: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=573994&postcount=83, no need to start to trim her feathers that have dried droppings on them, just soak her in the warm water as directed, gently scrub a bit it she should clean up nicely.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

No canker in sight! I saw when she opened her mouth that it was all nice and pink, no canker or dehydration!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> No canker in sight! I saw when she opened her mouth that it was all nice and pink, no canker or dehydration!


Glad to heat the moth e area is clear, but they can have canker in other places further down in their GI tract, that can not be seen from a mouth/throat exam. The Metronidazole (Metroplex) will deal with any of these issues, so make sure you continue her on both of the meds for the next week. Just keep doing what you are doing for now and let's she how she is doing in a few days. 

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLoxxqs6CCQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St4p6O986Jc&NR=1

Copy into URL bar to see Scourge in action! (not really action...) more vids soon...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NXS, I watched videos, does appear to be PMV, but as mentioned do continue with the meds. Also, if you could get a weight on her, it would be good to monitor her weight to make sure she is getting enough food each day and is not losing ground. Do spend a good amount of time making sure you support her by hand with food and water, and be patient with her, it could take weeks (a recent PMV bird too about 9 weeks to recover) so this will not be quick.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I am prepared to even to skip my vacation to Brasil to help her get better! She stands and flips her head the right way now,  and eats from my hands, whenever she sees them she gets excited  Scourge sleeps a fairly good amount of time. Today i took her to my porch and just stood in the sun with her, I've read that the vitamin D is good for her...She is on her meds. I'll see if anyone will let me use a scale thing to weigh her. Pics of her poop...



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Sorry that they're not really in focus D: ...her poops are in my opinion surprisingly large


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I am prepared to even to skip my vacation to Brasil to help her get better! She stands and flips her head the right way now,  and eats from my hands, whenever she sees them she gets excited  Scourge sleeps a fairly good amount of time. Today i took her to my porch and just stood in the sun with her, I've read that the vitamin D is good for her...She is on her meds. I'll see if anyone will let me use a scale thing to weigh her.


Be very careful taking her outside, these guys can get a burst of energy, even when ill, and have enough strength to fly up somewhere you will not be able to get her back from.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'll make sure she doesn't fly away next time  she has begun drinking on her own, it's very cute and funny because my other pij, November just sicks his beak in the water, while she plunges her entire head! Good thing she doesn't drown herself...I only give her water when I am with her because I fear that with her...interesting...techniques she may drown! She hates her cage and is always out of it and in her basket or sitting/standing on the floor. I am surprised that she only poops on paper and her blankets, never on my carpet or floor :O


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I'll make sure she doesn't fly away next time  she has begun drinking on her own, it's very cute and funny because my other pij, November just sicks his beak in the water, while she plunges her entire head! Good thing she doesn't drown herself...I only give her water when I am with her because I fear that with her...interesting...techniques she may drown! She hates her cage and is always out of it and in her basket or sitting/standing on the floor. I am surprised that she only poops on paper and her blankets, never on my carpet or floor :O


NXS, you are not clear in this post, but I wanted to remind you you have to keep Scourge isolated from your other pigeon, they can not share food or water dishes (all dishes Scourge uses should be disinfected with bleach, 1 part bleach to 9 parts water and then rinsed with water), should not be kept in the same room and wash your hands very well after handling or having anything to do with Scourge.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

they are not together, I've heard this disease is highly contagious and keep them well away from each other, whenever I get a new bird I quarantine it and make sure it is disease-less before getting it anywhere close to the others. I always sanitize my hands after handling Scourge and they don't even get food from the same food bag!In fact, the pigeons have never even seen each other! The disease is incurable, and thus she will never interact with November or any other of my pigeons.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> they are not together, I've heard this disease is highly contagious and keep them well away from each other, whenever I get a new bird I quarantine it and make sure it is disease-less before getting it anywhere close to the others. I always sanitize my hands after handling Scourge and they don't even get food from the same food bag!In fact, the pigeons have never even seen each other! The disease is incurable, and thus she will never interact with November or any other of my pigeons.


Good, glad you are well aware of the precautions you need to take to protect your others. 

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

she doesn't seem to be having a very good day...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

her urates look yellow.. I do not think that is good..she could have a virus and bacterial infection going on.. just an observation.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> her urates look yellow.. I do not think that is good..she could have a virus and bacterial infection going on.. just an observation.


Yes, noticed the same, she is on both a sulfa drug and Metronidazole to deal with this is it is bacterial or canker related.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Damned fireworks are scaring the living hell out of her  Still doesn't look too happy :'( poor Scourge can't get her rest because they are so loud. Her head continues untwisted (yay) but she doesn't stand like she did before....she leans or just falls...she sits on her brick a lot too, today her poops were quite watery because of how scared she was...all day! especially now at night, with so many more of them! She is still on her meds, I don't think her breathing is good...47 breaths per minute...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Shes feeling better now today  shes eating, drinking, and she once again attempts to correct herself! Scourge really likes that brick! And her poops don't look that watery anymore too!! Her breaths are 34 a minute...gooood


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Shes feeling better now today  shes eating, drinking, and she once again attempts to correct herself! Scourge really likes that brick! And her poops don't look that watery anymore too!! Her breaths are 34 a minute...gooood


Things sound like they are coming along well with your Scourge. It may take a number of weeks for her to make her way back. I know early in the thread I asked you to give her a good physical exam, which you did, but I want you to go over her legs one more time to make sure the right and the left feel the same. Making sure there are no swellings or areas that feel different from the left to the right side, then gently pull and extend each leg and she how she retracts them. I just want to double check we did not miss any injury to her leg(s) and that her unbalance right now is neuro related and not physical.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

OK  .....her legs seem, and feel fie, no swelling or anything, but when I pull them she hates it and pumps fiercely as if trying to run away...then poops on me teehee


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I was feeding Scourge, when I noticed a large scab under her wing, it doesn't look completely healed, should I pot some kind of medication on? Also, I just discovered a large featherless spot at the bases of the wings...do they normally have these?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



her scab, feet, and recent poop...respectively


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

You could lightly coat the still healing wound under her wing with a bit of antibiotic cream, but the Triple-Sulfa she is currently on will help deal with any real infection issues from this wound. That dropping is a vastly improved looking dropping, this is very good to see.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ive applied the cream, and now i'm feeding her, she still needs to gain weight though, I can feel her (i'm not sure but I think its called the keel bone or something) keel bone (breast bone) and it is quite prominent  she loves standing on her brick, which is funny because she is named after the sunken ship Scourge, which had a twin, Hamilton, and her brick has HAMILTON printed on it. So Scourge and Hamilton are together once more  lol


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Ive applied the cream, and now i'm feeding her, she still needs to gain weight though, I can feel her (i'm not sure but I think its called the keel bone or something) keel bone (breast bone) and it is quite prominent  she loves standing on her brick, which is funny because she is named after the sunken ship Scourge, which had a twin, Hamilton, and her brick has HAMILTON printed on it. So Scourge and Hamilton are together once more  lol


Her dropping shows she is eating well, good job with this, and before too long I am sure she will fatten up very nicely. Interesting choice of name for her and I liked your story .

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She won't drink!!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> She won't drink!!!


Not clear what you mean by this, can you provide more details?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I put water in front of her like I did before, but now she doesn't drink! I've begun eye-dropper watering her again, but when I do so, she never gets as much water as when she stuffs her head in the cup! Other than that, shes doing well, taking her meds, and eating. How cute =3


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I put water in front of her like I did before, but now she doesn't drink! I've begun eye-dropper watering her again, but when I do so, she never gets as much water as when she stuffs her head in the cup! Other than that, shes doing well, taking her meds, and eating. How cute =3


When they start to feel a bit better they may not consume the amount of water as when more ill. If she is producing a decent amount of droppings and the are moist and well formed, I would not worry too much, as she may be drink when she wants, not when you are watching. To be sure, you cam measure the amount you put in her water dish and then paler either check the water level, or measure what is still in the dish to get a better idea of the amount she is drinking.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

ok, thanks  she has begun drinking a little more, but not as much as before, I'll assume thats a good thing! I bathed her yesterday, shes very good! Her upper beak overhangs her lower one, I've heard you are to file it down when this happens, should I, or wait 'till shes feeling a little better?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> ok, thanks  she has begun drinking a little more, but not as much as before, I'll assume thats a good thing! I bathed her yesterday, shes very good! Her upper beak overhangs her lower one, I've heard you are to file it down when this happens, should I, or wait 'till shes feeling a little better?


Glad you feel she is doing better with her drinking. If it's just a small overhang on the beak, and does nor interfere with her eating, I would leave it be for now and look after it in a few weeks as she gains strength. 

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

yeah, I thought that I should wait.The pigeon is doing very well, but still cat walk or fly, she tries, but to no avail. She also can't really stand too well without tipping forward or back


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

The bird is fatter now! I can still slightly feel her bone, but I can on my other pigeon too, so I guess its ok. Her feathers are all clean too, though I tried to wash off the poo, and it worked a lot, I still had to lop some off. Now she is clean, and hasn't soiled them in the past couple of days. She attempts grooming, mostly scratching her foot around her neck and feeble tries at preening, but still, she accomplishes something. She still can't stand, and falls over. Can't walk too. Thank god that she is still alive, just a couple weeks ago, I was getting ready to post her story in the hall of love! Everyone always talks about how with pigeons that recover, they eventually get to see their real personalities, I just can't wait to see hers...! (if she lives O_O)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> The bird is fatter now! I can still slightly feel her bone, but I can on my other pigeon too, so I guess its ok. Her feathers are all clean too, though I tried to wash off the poo, and it worked a lot, I still had to lop some off. Now she is clean, and hasn't soiled them in the past couple of days. She attempts grooming, mostly scratching her foot around her neck and feeble tries at preening, but still, she accomplishes something. She still can't stand, and falls over. Can't walk too. Thank god that she is still alive, just a couple weeks ago, I was getting ready to post her story in the hall of love! Everyone always talks about how with pigeons that recover, they eventually get to see their real personalities, I just can't wait to see hers...! (if she lives O_O)


NXS, I think we can stop the meds for Scourge now, she has been on them long enough. Do keep an eye on her droppings and report any real changes.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

oookkkkkk, off the meds. Do I keep her on calcium?? And, there was a thread by someone (feefo) that says that a thing to help her balance (she can't move without falling) is Argentum Nitricium, 30c...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> oookkkkkk, off the meds. Do I keep her on calcium?? And, there was a thread by someone (feefo) that says that a thing to help her balance (she can't move without falling) is Argentum Nitricium, 30c...


I would stop the calcium, for the moment as well, and get some mutli-vitamins for birds that can be dosed in the water, most pet stores have these. I will have Cynthia (Feefo) have a look in on your thread for some hints on how to use the Argentum Nitricium, or other items she thinks may help. Is there anyway you could make a short video of her and post it to Youtube, here is a clip one of our other members recently did that was very helpful to us here in seeing exactly what was going on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjfMB77DygE .

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi, found the thread at last, Karyn.

I don't think this sounds like PMV, I will have to have a good read of the thread but it sounds as if something else is going on. A video would help a lot.

Homeopathic remedies should help, they are determined by the reaction of her body to illness not by the cause, but you need to select the right remedy. Can you make a simple list of all her symptoms?

Cynthia


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Symptoms:

Head twist
Can't walk, fly, or move without tipping over
Totally fails at aim with eating seeds 

That's it...the moving thing is the worst, as every time I'm not holding her, she tips again. Usually forward.
There are some vids too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St4p6O986Jc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLoxxqs6CCQ

Scourge. I had posted these before...but I forget what page it was on though...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NSX, yes, I remembered you had posted video clips before, but was wondering if we could get some new ones, for comparison, to see if there were a change in condition. Wouldn't mind see if you could get her to try and walk in the new clip as well.

Thanks,

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50jHu_LVW_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUW_fhnngbI
Scourge tries to walk and eat on her own.
Posting pics of her so you can see her better soon!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

OK I have watched the videos and the first two videos show PMV-ish symptoms...the good appetite despite the severity of the symptoms is consistent with PMV.

I have seen pigeons with PMV fall over, but not the way that one is doing. 

Are there times during the day when she is better than others? For instance, is she better when she does not know she is being watched, or does she worsen as evening falls?

If it is PMV then it is still early days in the course of the disease, they need to rest for two or three months.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She actually starts standing better during the evening, but then when night falls, she worsens again. From morning, you have to hold her or she will tip forward, until it's been darkish for a while.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Also, I'll have to post a pic for you ppl to see. She..well..you can see a hole in her head, it's her ear I think, but I just need to make sure. She has no feathers there, so its easy to spot. And yes, she is just 2 weeks into her infection, pretty near the beginning. 
If it's not PMV, what would make her tip like that? Are there other infections that hurt their balance system?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NXS, can you tell me a little more about the circumstances of Scourge's rescue. Were exactly was she rescued from, are there apartment buildings around where you found her, do you know the neighborhood at all, is there a flock around she would have belonged to, if you know the flock any other birds looking or acting off?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

There is a flock, in fact, the same flock my first pij November comes from! It is in my neighborhood, in and on my school property. No high buildings, mainly 2 story houses. Other than my school, which has 3 floors. Some of the flock have some issues flying, but no head twisting or tipping. My flock friend- Dude- can't really fly unless hes scared, and then he'll just go a couple of meters, crash, and run the rest.. Also, since the "pigeon home base" is on top of the school, the floor is usually caked with the dried remains of pigeon eggs. There is a hawk nearby, living in a pine, always watching this flock.
When I found Scourge, she was just sitting on the curb i front of my school and I was coming back from a field trip (but all I did was feed the pigeons at the harbor  ) I had been taking pics of them, so I thought she was cute, and tried to take her pic. She then got really freaked out, flipped over, righted herself, and flipped again. She made it up a hill in the time I had gotten permission to leave school early, and was lying, her head twisted, and upside down. I grabbed her, and promptly ran home. Exactly then, this thread began.
Her head has been twisted down all day too...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NXS, I asked the questions I did because I wanted to rule in, or out, the possibility, that Scourge may have been poisoned with a commercial animal poison called Avitrol, as if a bird is not outright killed by the poison, it can have a severe impact on a bird's neurological system. This would be more common in and around apartment buildings and they way you have described things, especially with a near by school, I think this is a less likely thing to have happened to your bird.

Do you think you could start to ask around to all your family and friends if they have an antibiotic called Ciprofloxacin (Cipro). I wouldn't mind doing a course of this medicine to see what the response would be, because there are some bacterial infections that can also cause severe neuro symptoms and Cipro would be the drug of choice to try and clear this kind of infection.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

ok, thanks! I'll try to get a hold of it. Her head has been twisted all day...Thank god it's not Avitrol, poisoning isn't a good way to go! On days like today, I feel really scared about Scourge, because the head twisting gets me nervous. I haven't seen her head untwisted for the entire day!! Scary...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> ok, thanks! I'll try to get a hold of it. Her head has been twisted all day...Thank god it's not Avitrol, poisoning isn't a good way to go! On days like today, I feel really scared about Scourge, because the head twisting gets me nervous. I haven't seen her head untwisted for the entire day!! Scary...


Try and keep her in a towel donut with her head supported, as best you can, when she is like this, glad you're going to try and see what you can do about the Cipro.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

yeah, I got Scourge in a donut. This morning, I found her out of her donut, on her side, with her head underneath her. When I touched her wing, no movement. When I touched her feet, no usual freaking out. I sat down, on the verge of tears, thinking about how my wonderful Scourge had crossed the bridge, how empty I all would seem now, with just one of these fuzzy, cute, little characters. Then I thought at what time she passed, was It soon after I awoke? After falling asleep? I stood up and looked in her cage, and the body but not the spirit of the loved by many around me, Scourge. Gazing around I wondered; which was her last poop? Would I be able to even clean her cage now that she was gone? Then all I'd have was memories. Memories that made me shudder and cry, like I had the day I had when she was _thought_ dead. I reached in the cage to stroke her feathers, so soft, clean. I thought; how will I break the news? I picked my little sweety up, and failed to notice her slight leg movements through my fog of tears. I tried to move her head in a normal position, but I couldn't, had she already hardened? One of my tears fell on her right when a roll of thunder came. Looking outside, I saw a rainbow showing strongly form the gloom of the rain. But not a normal rainbow, It had the faint outline...of a double rainbow. _The Rainbow Bridge._ It had to be, I couldn't think of anything ever more beautiful, other than my little Scourge, of course. I gazed at my Scourge and paused. She looked, different. My little light of hope brightened, stunning me. After a little stop, I tried to hold Scourge up. And to my delightment, there stood Scourge the Pigeon. Head upside down, she twisted it a little further, to glance at me. I reset Scourge in her donut, and began writing what was sure to be, a very long post.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Oh, dear...I had difficulty reading that one.

It is sounding more like PMV to me. I can't tell you the number of times I have seen one of my PMV survivors looking dead, run forward an anguished cry of "Oh, no! Oh no! " only to find to my utter relief they have just "zonked out" into a typical deep PMV sleep.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NXS, this little episode with Scourge must have been very trying for you to go through, I am glad she is still with you . If Cynthia (Feefo) is starting to think this may indeed be PMV, then this is may very well be the case, right now you just can continue to offer support and let the virus work its way out of her system.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Soo happy she wasn't dead, that would have sent me into hysterics. Now that the flock has been mentioned, maybe she and November are acquaintances...maybe friends, I don't know. But that makes me wonder...O_O I found one of her walking problems, maybe she tips, but she also has some sort of problem in her left leg, when I hold her up straight, she either picks up her left leg or loses balance on it. Every time she tips, it is either to the front or her left. When I thought she passed, I touched her leg, to see if she would pedal her legs like she usually does...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Im not sure what this is but I know its not good! On scourges face, I found some sort of ticklike thing. It was long, six legs near the front of its body. I guess now I know why she has a bald spot near her ear!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Was it feeding on her or engorged? I once got a collared dove that was just sitting with her head pulled back towards her tail (opisthotonos). She had a tick on her and I wondered whether the toxins that it produced had caused her symptoms. She mad a full recovery.

Please examine her very carefully to see if there are any more


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I haven't seen anymore, and it seemed pretty thin. It was just walking around her beak when I smushed it
... Scourge farted...POTENT!! Had to evacuate for a bit


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She is sleeping...sooo cute


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

just found another tickish thing walking on my laptop


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I haven't seen anymore, and it seemed pretty thin. It was just walking around her beak when I smushed it
> ... Scourge farted...POTENT!! Had to evacuate for a bit


Sounds like she may have pigeon lice, not an uncommon thing on a feral. You need to go to the pet store where you picked up the Triple-Sulfa and get a bottle of this kind of spray (make sure it is for birds and had Pyrethrins as its active) http://www.petco.com/product/102342/8-in-1-Ultra-Care-Mite-And-Lice-Bird-Spray.aspx, give her a good spray all over, especially under her wings and that should take care of her pest problem.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

oook, thanks, will do. I'll grab it as soon as I can!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> oook, thanks, will do. I'll grab it as soon as I can!


Forgot to mention to make sure you cover her head with a piece or old sock or towel so she does not breath any in or get any in her mouth/nostrils/eyes.

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

This time I wasn't as lucky...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Can't stop crying :'(


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry. RIP baby.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

NSX, your message yesterday was a bit cryptic, an I was hoping it didn't mean what has come to pass. I am so very sorry for your loss, I know how hard you tried for Scourge (she was a tough little fighter). Please accept my heartfelt sympathy and may this little one now rest in peace.

Bless you,

Karyn


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm so sorry, NSX! It's a terrible feeling when you've done your best but still can't manage to save them. Scourge was loved and protected all the time he was with you, and you will always be able to find his presence in your heart.

Fly free, little Scourge!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

thanks everyone for all your help! She lived a great deal longer than she would have had I not gotten your help...and for that great, great advice, I will always be grateful-and so will she :'(


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I now keep her last drink of water, her last poop, her last calcium tablet, and her favorite cloth in a box in my room. I open it every day and think of my poor birdie. Then I sanitize myself, and go hug my remaining pigeon and think how lucky I am to have him. And how lucky I was to have her. Thank you Scourge, for the wonderful month I had with you, and with every house I move to, you will be with me, buried in a pot under a sunflower. A sunflower tall, so that now you can fly, like you couldn't on your last month here on earth. 

Scourge, <3 forever


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