# Help? Air Bubble In Crop, Or Ruptured Air Sac?



## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi, All,

Please, I think I need your help! 

QUESTION (1):
Is this baby showing 
(1) air in his crop? 
or
(2) a ruptured air sac (or more than one?) 
or... 
(3) BOTH ???

I *have* been scouring the internet and this forum for advice and reading posts, but the photos I've seen have been of much bigger birds with more feathers, and every photo looks different from mine, and I still am not sure what the situation is - I certainly don't want to try puncturing this baby if it isn't needed!

SYNOPSIS:

1) Please see photos, if I've been able to attach them - they may answer all your questions. ...

[oops, okay, it only lets me upload 3 photos at a time, apologies in advance, I guess I'm going to have to put up multiple posts here... please be patient if you're reading the real-time, I've never posted here before...]

In hindsight, maybe this baby had a ruptured air sac from day one...that I thought was a first meal from foster parents, before I had to take the baby away from them?

a) 2 photos of baby in my right hand taken when I got the baby, on Hatch Day, Day 1, approx 2:15pm Sunday 4/3. Perhaps that is the beginnings of a small ruptured air sac blister in these photos, and not the remains of a crop meal? [attached to this post]

b) photo on black background, is Day 1, after first meal, approx 4pm Sunday 4/3 [attached to this post]

[next posts will have the rest of the photos... sorry for the inconvenience]

c) Next 6 photos are from today (Day 3) at 4:30 pm
Baby has not been fed for several hours
- 4 pictures of swollen area
- 5th picture is "candling" the baby's throat. Seems like there is food at the bottom of the crop, but ...what's taking up the rest of the area? could it be water? Or air? 
(after trying to "burp" the baby, I guess it was air !?!)
- 1 photo of poop over the last 4 hours or so

d) Next 2 photos are today, (Day 3) an hour later, at 5:30pm before I attempted to "burp" the baby
- still swollen, and at least five and a half hours since last meal,
and 
- another "candling".

e) Next 5 photos are today (Day 3) at 5:30pm taken after trying to "burp" the baby. 
You can see there is tremendous deflation of the entire area, after the air has been expressed. 
That tends to make me hope and think this is just crop air, after all... 
This is the *second* time I've tried "burping the baby" and the first time didn't make much difference in the blister size, so I freaked out and started writing this post to everybody... *While* writing this post, I've taken all these photos and tried to burp the baby a second time, and I feel a little less panicky, after seeing the tremendous deflation the second burping caused... but... I'm new to this! So I figured I'd better ASK!

f) next 2 photos are of his poop between 4:30pm and 5:30pm. I have no idea if that's a normal amount, or a normal appearance, but I know you folks have asked others in the past, to see what it looked like, and how often it was, to help diagnose problems.

QUESTION (2): 
Can you force air out of a ruptured air sac by massaging the crop to push the bubble from the base of the throat upwards?
If not, then this is *definitely* just crop air (which would be an enormous relief!).

I tried to take photos from different angles, to show what I *think*, after the "burping", is just a small sack of food, sloshing around in limp skin. 

The only reason the remaining "bubble" shows up consistently in front of the baby's left wing, is because of gravity and the order I took the photos... I just didn't take a final one, flopping the bag over to the other side. There is no "blister" sitting consistently in that location.

QUESTION (3):
An additional concern - you can see from me "candling" the baby's crop, that there is still a small dark area, that feels like the Kaytee EXACT food powder grit... but the second "candling" photo was taken at least 4 1/2 hours after about a 3cc meal of... darn, can't remember if I fed just yoghurt, or mixed it with EXACT formula. Sorry. 

Anyway, even if it was the most recent previous meal that had the EXACT baby food powder in it, then shouldn't it have passed out of the crop after 5 1/2 hours (or more) ?

QUESTION (4):
Do I need to wait until *every little bit* of food is out of the crop before feeding again? Because I read somewhere else (in this forum? on the internet?) that waiting 6 or more hours was too long... and that pouch of EXACT food (if that's what it was) showing in the 5:30pm "candling", might have been from the first meal of the day.

ADDITIONAL DETAILS:

2) Baby is orphan, hatched MIRACULOUSLY from cracked egg, incubated by foster pigeons, but having to be hand-raised after hatching, by me - I'M NEW TO THIS !!! (no, the baby can't be left with the parents, they are show pigeons whose owner let them sit on my egg, along with their own, and theirs are about to hatch, and the owner wants his birds to focus on his own babies).

3) HEAT:
- Baby has suffered lots of heat fluctuations while I tried to stabilize his environment - mostly "too hot", occasionally "not warm enough". Temperature finally got stabilized half-way through Day 2, and yet this morning (Day 3), the heating pad is acting up, and baby was "too cool" through (how much of?) the night, and I've been fussing with it all day - think I got the temperature stabilized again at about 3:30pm

4) FOOD:
- I think I have overfed him several times, feeding 2 and 3 cc, instead of only 1, several times in the first two days (letting him take as much as he wanted, and also unable to believe that 1cc is really "enough"... and suffering from the "when in doubt, feed more" syndrome, which I have corrected).
- The first feeding was yoghurt with the live cultures in it, watered down with Pedialyte (unflavoured electrolytes) and water, to be the consistency of just water.
- Since then, I have been mixing Pedialyte (unflavoured electrolytes) and water, varying the feedings to be any of the following:
(a) yoghurt + Pedialyte, or + Pedialyte and water
(b) KAYTEE EXACT Hand Fed baby bird powder mix as per the 1:5 ratio instructions, using Pedialyte or Pediatlyte + water
(c) a little EXACT powder + yoghurt + Pedialyte + water 

...AND I have been trying to add in an appropriatedly teeny amount of Apple Cider Vinegar ("ACV"), which I only just found out a few hours ago, should not be mixed with the yoghurt meals... so it should be noted that I have probably been mixing the ACV with the yoghurt over the last few days.

5) SYMPTOMS:
a) Crop has seemed slow to empty... 
Or is it a ruptured air sac blister not deflating? 
Or is it air in the crop? (I'm now thinking it's this). 
This (possible mis)diagnosis of "slow crop" delayed several feedings by 1-2-3 hours... but baby is still very strong, so no harm done ?
b) The sac seems to be getting bigger and bigger as the hours pass. 
c) It looks like a blister.
d) I listened for "crackling" when I manipulate it, but the baby is so small, just my finger sliding over the tightly inflated baby skin, makes a rough noise, and I'm not sure if I'm hearing "scratching/scraping" noises or "crackling".
e) As of 3:30pm today, NO white spots on inside of throat, NO laboured breathing.
f) Yesterday it was only a bubble about the size of the baby's head, and located in the lower right side (baby's right side) at what I would consider the bottom of the crop - *not* in the skin area just in front of the wing, but the actual crop.
- Today it looks like both sides of the crop are involved, and the baby looks like it has a mostly full crop, even though food should have passed out of it by the time the photos were taken.

6) TREATMENT:
In addition to feeding yoghurt and Apple Cider Vinegar (perhaps uselessly at the same time) every day,I have "burped" the baby twice.
- The first time, the "blister" deflated maybe only 1/4 to 1/3, and I frightened myself by squeezing some yoghurt right up from the base of the crop out the baby's beak. After the baby spent about 5 minutes of taking hard breaths, it went back to breathing normally, ie, unnoticeably (although it took me a lot longer to calm down). Since this "burping" didn't really seem to make much difference, that's when I started to freak out and think "oo, maybe this is a ruptured air sac?" and started the letter to you guys.
- The second time I "burped" the baby was while I was putting this e-mail together for you folks... and this time, it deflated things so much, I'm back to thinking maybe this is just air in the crop? But I figured I'd better ask all you experts.

QUESTION (5):
If it *is* just air in his crop, why does his crop keep filling up with it, after I burp it out of him? 

QUESTION (6):
And should I be doing anything else to prevent air in his crop, besides feeding him yoghurt and Apple Cider Vinegar, and pressing the air out when needed?

Thanks TREMENDOUSLY in advance, for any advice or opinions.

Please be patient while I upload the rest of the photos - I hope this works!

Very Sincerely - and Nervously - and Gratefully-in-Advance,
-Lauren


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

*Help? Air Bubble In Crop, Or Ruptured Air Sac? - PHOTOS*

These photos are the ones mentioned in my original post's SYNOPSIS section:

1-c) Next 6 photos are from today (Day 3) at 4:30 pm
Baby has not been fed for several hours
- 4 pictures of swollen area
- 5th picture is "candling" the baby's throat. Seems like there is food at the bottom of the crop, but ...what's taking up the rest of the area? could it be water? Or air? 
(after trying to "burp" the baby, I guess it was air !?!)
- 1 photo of poop over the last 4 hours or so

*What's attached are the first 3 photos of the "4 pictures of swollen area"*

-Lauren


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

*Help? Air Bubble In Crop, Or Ruptured Air Sac? - PHOTOS 1-c*

oops, sorry, forgot the photos...



trying again: 

Help? Air Bubble In Crop, Or Ruptured Air Sac? - PHOTOS 1-c

These photos are the ones mentioned in my original post's SYNOPSIS section:

1-c) Next 6 photos are from today (Day 3) at 4:30 pm
Baby has not been fed for several hours
- 4 pictures of swollen area
- 5th picture is "candling" the baby's throat. Seems like there is food at the bottom of the crop, but ...what's taking up the rest of the area? could it be water? Or air? 
(after trying to "burp" the baby, I guess it was air !?!)
- 1 photo of poop over the last 4 hours or so

*What's attached are the 4th photo of the "4 pictures of swollen area" , and the "candling" picture, and the "poop" photo. *

-Lauren


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

*Help? Air Bubble In Crop, Or Ruptured Air Sac? - PHOTOS 1-d*

These photos are the ones mentioned in my original post's SYNOPSIS section:

1-d) Next 2 photos are today, (Day 3) an hour later, at 5:30pm before I attempted to "burp" the baby
- still swollen, and at least five and a half hours since last meal,
and 
- another "candling".

-Lauren


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

*Help? Air Bubble In Crop, Or Ruptured Air Sac? - PHOTOS 1-e*

These photos are the ones mentioned in my original post's SYNOPSIS section:


e) Next 5 photos are today (Day 3) at 5:30pm taken after trying to "burp" the baby. 
You can see there is tremendous deflation of the entire area, after the air has been expressed. 

*
What's attached are the first 3 photos of this set of 5 "after burping the baby" pictures (after opening baby's beak, and massaging crop bubble area upwards, from bottom of crop towards top of throat).*


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

*Help? Air Bubble In Crop, Or Ruptured Air Sac? - PHOTOS 1-e and 1-f*

*
These photos are the ones mentioned in my original post's SYNOPSIS sections (e) and (f):
*

e) Next 5 photos are today (Day 3) at 5:30pm taken after trying to "burp" the baby. 
You can see there is tremendous deflation of the entire area, after the air has been expressed. 

f) next 2 photos are of his poop between 4:30pm and 5:30pm. I have no idea if that's a normal amount, or a normal appearance, but I know you folks have asked others in the past, to see what it looked like, and how often it was, to help diagnose problems.


*
What's attached are the last 2 photos of 1-e's set of 5 "after burping the baby" pictures, and the first of the 2 photos for 1-f, of what the baby has pooped in an hour.*

(I can't believe I am posting photos of bird poop to the internet)
*
OH RATS! It says I've maxed out my storage area? And I still have 3 more photos to post! ACK! Now what? 

:-(

Well, unless somebody can tell me how to post the last 3 photos, I guess I'm done :-( 

Thanks again for any help!
-Lauren*


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

If you can create a account on photobucket, then you could post any additional photos on there for free and put the link in text here. I don't have any practical experience with the situation you describe to be of any further help myself sorry, but more experienced people should be on the site soon 

Best of luck to u and your little one, 

Kamz


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Click on User CP (upper left part of your screen) and then Pictures and Albums .. you can upload as many photos as you like there. Once you've put the photos in your album you can just tell us the pics are there and/or post a link to your album.

Terry


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

Thank you, Kamz, for your suggestion to post photos in a Photobucket account - I just created an account on PhotoBucket, and am wrestling with it, in another window. If I can get it to upload my photos, I will post the link! 

Thanks!
-Lauren


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Tengu, can you try for some more pictures that are a bit clearer? If you have a macro setting on your camera, give that a try.

I really can't tell what I'm seeing in the pics .. most likely a ruptured air sac or a mass of canker. From what I can tell from the pics, the "blob" seems to be only on one side of the crop which makes me think canker, but don't take this as gospel, because I really can't tell. If it is canker, do you have any canker medication like Spartrix or Ronidazole?

Terry


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi, Terry,

Thanks for your replies.

I'm sorry about the quality of the photos... 
#1 - I have only my cell phone camera to use as a camera :-/, not too good for teeny closeups
#2 - reducing the photos to the size allowed in this forum, lopped off important areas of the photo, to my surprise... 

About uploading the photos to this forum in an album via hitting "CP", etc. .... that area also has photo size restrictions.

... I'm seeing if I can upload the original full-sized photos to some other website in "public" mode, where it will be easier for people to see them...

Apologies in advance, and thanks for your patience.

Sorry for my Newbie-osity-ness-ism in forum usage,
-Lauren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Lauren, as Terry mentioned, the quality of the photos makes it difficult to tell what is really going on. Can you borrow a family member's/friend's camera and get some better shots up"?...we would need the closeness, but the shots need to be clear and crisp.

A few things, if it is a airsac rupture you can not expel this air by "burping" this little one, as the crop itself is a pouch that sits under the skin and the air would be trapped between this pouch and skin, it is not in the crop itself. Second, I am not sure I would be burping this little one, as doing this may cause the aspiration of the crop contents, which it sounds like this has been close to happening when the contents backed up into its beak, and this will bring aspiration pneumonia, which would not be a good thing at all.

What strength are you using the ACV (apple cider vinegar) at?..., what temperature are you feeing his food at and what are you feeding?... what meds do you have on hand?

Here are a few links that may be good to read:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/help-egg-is-hatching-and-i-dont-have-a-clue-47170.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/feeding-help-needed-for-newly-hatched-pigeons-47336.html

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ok .. sounds good, Lauren. I thought the album section here automatically resized photos and that they still came out pretty good. I, personally, haven't used it recently, so I can't attest to that. Anyway, please go ahead and get your photos on Photobucket and let us know the link to them.

Best of luck with your little one.

Terry


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

Okay, everybody, I managed to get all the original, full-sized, photos, uploaded to a website for easier viewing (good idea, thanks, Kamz!) !!!

They can be found here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/TenguOkoku/BABYPIGEONAIRBUBBLEINCROPORRUPTUREDAIRSAC#

For best viewing, I suggest you:
1) select "slideshow"
2) click on the little " + " sign, at the bottom of the photo, to bump the viewing time of each picture up to 20 seconds
3) hide, and re-show the captions, as needed, to see the photo clearly.

Sorry for all this photo-hassle! And thanks in advance for any advice!
-Lauren


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi, Karyn,

Thanks for your reply - I had a long post half-finished to you, when my laptop froze, and l had to reboot - lost everything I'd written you. Since it's now 3am here, I'm going to write a much shorter reply this time 

- RE/camera & photo quality - nearest relative with a camera I know of is about a 3 day one-way car trip away . Don't have anybody to borrow a camera from, BUT see my most recent post - I've uploaded the original, much better, untinkered with, photos, to a website. The quality is better, the picture isn't truncated in weird ways, and there are captions with information matching the photos to my original post and providing additional info.

- RE/burping an air sac rupture being impossible - okay, thanks, I pretty much thought so, but I wasn't sure..
The good news is, that confirms this baby has air bubbles in its crop, not an air sac rupture, and I think crop air bubbles are a much less scary problem!

- RE/not burping the baby at all, for fear of causing aspiration of crop contents - well, yes, I caused a backup of food once, and, I did it a little bit, during the second time, as I was carefully trying to find the limit of how to do it... I actually think I can do it safely and correctly now - I paid close attention. Meanwhile... I'm not sure I have any choice...

*QUESTION/CONCERN:*
- I've read in this forum and elsewhere that if you *don't* burp them, they can't take food into their crops, because the crop is full of air, and there's no room left for the food, and that this can lead to them basically starving to death. True?

-RE/strength of "ACV" (Apple Cider Vinegar) - according to what I could find on the internet and in this forum, it's should be 1 drop per 10 cc, so I'm mixing up that much, but certainly not feeding him 10 cc. I just have no way to add less than one drop.

- RE/temperature of food when fed - I don't have a thermometer, but I am trying to make the food "wrist temperature" (you know, drop it on the inside of your wrist, and if you can't feel it, it's the right temperature), or a little warmer. 

- you didn't ask about the baby's temperature, but, as per my post, I am *still* fighting erratic heating pad behaviour. I have spent almost all day checking this baby, sometimes every 10 minutes for 2-3 hours in a row, having to adjust to the stupid heating pad output going up and down. I read that the baby should be warmed up a little before eating, as well, but, again, no thermometer, and at this point, I'm just trying to get the baby stablized at a temperature where it feels warm to my fingers, but not strongly warm, or hot (all uselessly subjective terms, I know). 

- RE/meds on hand - I have *no* bird-specific medications on hand... This whole situation - and noticing this problem - just - er - cropped up (sorry)... I've been scrambling just to find out what to do, and implement it, and then researching symptoms and treatments of this blister-looking thing and getting all confused, as it seemed to meet the descriptions for both conditions, and raised the possibility of a third, "canker". 

Near as I could find, from frantic researching:
- since there are no white spots in the throat, there is no canker, therefore no meds needed for *that*. 
- For crop air bubbles, you just burp them (CAREFULLY) and feed crop motility foods like ACV and yoghurt - which I've been doing since the first feeding
- For a ruptured air sac, I couldn't tell if I was hearing "crackling" or not, and the descriptions and photos of ruptured air sac vs crop bubble, were confusing enough, I wasn't sure which the baby had. Treatment for the ruptured air sac is scarier, and apparently requires sterilizing a syringe needle with a match, sterilizing the area on the bubble where you insert the needle, inserting the needle carefully, and expelling the air carefully through the still-embedded syringe needle (watched the YouTube clip, pointed to by this forum, and read everything I could find in this forum and on the internet, etc. etc.). I have sterile syringe needles, iodine, and a match, so I was set there, if I had to do it. Some sites recommended antibiotics along with this treatment, others said it wasn't necessary as the hole would seal up immediately - more confusion.

The only medications I have available are for my sheep and goats, and I have no clue about their appropriateness for birds, nor any clue about dosage. Most of the medications I've read about in this forum, are things I've never heard of. I do not know of a "pigeon vet", or even a "bird vet" (whom I trust) around here. 

*QUESTION:*
- Is there a forum post that amounts to:
1) "Here's a set of things for a basic pigeon first aid kit, that you ought to accumulate and keep handy" 
and:
2) "Here are common pigeon problems, their medications, and appropriate dosages" ?
... I've been bookmarking everything I can find all over the internet, but it would sure be nice to have it all in one place.

RE/links provided - Thank you - I had actually already found both of those in my urgent research on this issue, and read all the links *those* answers pointed to.

The main reason I was writing my post originally was, I wasn't sure *which* problem I was dealing with... Crop air? or Ruptured air sac? None of the research I did showed photographs that matched my little guy's appearance, and the *first* time I burped him, the bubble didn't really seem to decrease - so I wasn't sure which situation I had. It was *while* writing this post to ask for help, and photographing things, that the next feeding came round, and I tried moving the air bubble up out of the crop again, and had MUCH more success - and - I guess - provided my own answer - this does seem to be an air bubble in the crop. 

I'd still find it reallly helpful if I could get answers to the other questions I asked in my post, though... like... What about feeding when there is food still in the crop from the previous feeding? 
I have read in many places:
- "NEVER feed the baby until the crop is COMPLETELY empty", 
BUT I've *also* read:
- "Don't wait more than 6 hours between feeding", 
...and, on a dove rescue site, just a few hours ago, I read:
- "NEVER let the crop GET completely empty before feeding the next meal"

I'm trying to do my homework, but... contradictory advice from experts is very confusing!

Thanks again for taking time to help me with this! I already know the people on this forum are TERRIFIC, just from all the posts I read before I ever dreamed *I* would be posting with a problem!

Sincerely,
-Lauren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Lauren, one of the most important things for these guys at this age is proper heat, both in the temperature they are being kept at and the temperature of the food being feed. You don't have to do a lot to maintain the more or less right temperature if you are using a heat pad, just get a small towel fold it over, place it on the heating pad set to low (MUST BE LOW) and you should be good. 

For feeding, you want the temperature around 102-104 degrees, this will be a bit warmer on the wrist than for a human baby, but not in any way "hot", if you feed food at an improper temperature you will really slow the crop down and make sure it is quite runny, like a melted milkshake. You can increase the amount of ACV to 3-4 drops per 10cc of formula/food/water to increase the ability to shift pH down which will help with possible sour crop issues.

With how often how much, don't over fill/feed, I usually recommending don't feed again until about 90% what has just been feed has moved through, so just use the time and amounts as guidelines, let the crop tell you how often and when to feed again. It's a little harder now because there are present issues, but for example if a crop has been emptying every 4 hours and all of a sudden it is every 6-8 hours this is a warning something is amiss and actions to correct this sudden change needs to be taken.

If you have to release air, please gently grasp the head, extend the neck up and a little back to help prevent any remaining food from possibly coming back up. What meds do you have for your sheep and goats?... names.. active meds in them?

Here are a couple of threads to help with common meds to keep on hand for a pigeon and their use:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/list-of-meds-to-have-41924.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/medicine-chest-for-sick-pigeons-18490.html

http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html

I love a lot of information when I am help a person, but you need to focus your posts just a bit more, as when a post is too long, it can put off people helping by feeling little unwieldly to get through . Photos in the link are a little better, but with something like this, at least for myself, I really need clear and detailed shots to make sure I am seeing what I think I am seeing.

Karyn


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## Tengu (Mar 1, 2011)

It's over. The baby is dead.Somehow the extension cord to the heating pad became unplugged during the night, and the poor tiny baby thing died from. I am so sick and upset about it, I can hardly type. I'm just sitting here keeping his little body warm in my hands because I can't bear how cold he felt. This baby was a miracle of hope, hatching from a cracked egg, and was doing so well.

Thank you everybody who tried to help. I can't type any more.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

This may be a long shot, as he could have died a while ago, but there a few times where they are cold and appear dead, but by warming you hands under running hot water and then cupping the little one in your hands to impart this warmth, there is a very small chance he could be revived, it's worth a try.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/new-born-pige-death-42457.html

Karyn


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