# Suggestions needed!!



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Kim (KIPPY) is having a problem with her pet pigeons.
They live in an aviary outside on her covered patio.

A week ago we had a horrific hail storm which upset probably every bird in the county. A week ago yesterday (Saturday) Kippy was looking a bit under the weather. Sunday she perked up a bit. however did vomit a few seeds. Monday she was moving about but still a little slow.

Tuesday Kippy had taken a turn for the worse. Kim brought her over & within aprox. 20 minutes she passed away. 

She showed no visible signs of canker. On the thought she might have had internal canker, Kim treated her remaining 6 birds with Spartrix. She also gave them an Appertex.

I received a call from Kim earlier this morning & another one of her pigeons has begun vomiting. She just called & while attempting to post about her situation she noticed yet another bird was vomiting. 

I offered to post on her behalf.

* She has isolated the two suspected pigeons from the rest & each other. They are on heat. They both have watery droppings. One is pretty fiesty while the other is not moving about much.

*The remaining 4 birds have no visible signs of being ill. Droppings are good, eating & drinking fine, thus far. 
Side note: One of the suspected pigeons is the mate of one of the healthy ones. As a parecaution, would it be best to remove that one as well from the aviary?

I know one of the first suggestions will be get the birds to the vet. It's Sunday & none are open. 
So if anyone can help us with possible suggestions of what might be going on & possible treatment suggestions it would be greatly appreciated. 
Kim is into as much natural remedies as possible.

Thanks.

Cindy


----------



## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Side note: One of the suspected pigeons is the mate of one of the healthy ones. As a precaution, would it be best to remove that one as well from the aviary?


Yes most definitely I would Cindy. That is just terrible about Kippy. My heart goes out to Kim.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cindy,

I'm really sorry to hear about Kim's situation w/her beloved pigeons. 

Do these birds ever free fly outside of the enclosed aviary? If so I wouldn't allow them to do so until the problem has been ID'ed. Is it at all possible that they could have injested something that is causing this response around her house or in the neighborhood?

Worms, canker, viral, fungal, & bacterial based infections can all cause vomiting. But the way it's sprung up and spread seems more viral or bacterial if you can definitively rule out ingesting something that could have caused this.

Sure hope the vet can get to the bottom of it.

fp


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear that Kippy and the other pigeons passed away.

Is there anything unusual looking about the seeds that are thrown up, are they whole, partially digested, any fluid or other secretions with it? Any unusual smell? How do their poops look?

If their stomach isn't upset, I'd give them all one garlic capsule a day, for a potent anti-biotic, anti-parasitic effect. I would also give a drop of Neem oil down the throat, as it is also an anti-viral.

A drop of Colloidal silver in case of an infection inside the crop or digestive tract.

I would also treat for poison, as that has not been ruled out. Reishi encapsulated makes an excellent detoxifier, as well as has other benefits. Turmeric, barley and chlorella can also be given. I don't know if it is too late for charcoal but, I would also give them access to that with their grit.


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

No, they do not free fly. I do have a problem with Ferals on my patio tho.
I have treated my pijs with spartrix and appertex. Not sure how many days I am suppose to do this. Judah looks fine but keeps throwing up, which started today. Zeke is ruffled and vomited this morning.
Last weekend Kippy was vomiting I gave her some Sulmet. She's done this in the past and I gave her some Sulmet and she was fine. This time it wasn't the case. 
I have no clue. I havn't done anything different. It's all pretty routine aound here.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Did they have any contact with the ferals or their poop? They they ingest anything that could have had such reaction? How about their poop?


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Judah
Is there anything unusual looking about the seeds that are thrown up, are they whole, partially digested, any fluid or other secretions with it?
whole
Any unusual smell?
I can't smell anything unusual
How do their poops look?
white

Zeke
Is there anything unusual looking about the seeds that are thrown up, are they whole, partially digested, any fluid or other secretions with it? 
whole
Any unusual smell? 
no
How do their poops look?
Green white jelly like


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

What meds do you have on hand?

fp

BTW, Spartrix is usually 3-4 days of treatment.


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I have garlic oil 2mg soft gels. Should I give one to my other birds who are not sick yet? If so, how do you do that? They seem big to me.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm going to move this thread to the sick & injured forum. 
I thought that's what I did initially, but apparently was thinking these were pets so I posted there. 
I believe it will be better moved.

Cindy


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I have Spartrix, Appertex, Amox.
How many days with the Appertex?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

What is the actual drug, is it Clazuril?

fp


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

KIPPY said:


> I'd give them all one garlic capsule a day
> I have garlic oil 2mg soft gels. Should I give one to my other birds who are not sick yet? If so, how do you do that? They seem big to me.


How long have you been giving them the garlic caps, and are you sure they are 2mg?

I use the 1000-1500 mg softgels daily, the Now brand, or Wal mart brand.

Yes, I would start them on them also. This will help purify the blood as well.

You can use a little water to wet them or some oil, like Neem oil and put it in the back of their throat (up and over/behind the tongue) and gently push back and close the beak and allow them to swallow.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> What is the actual drug, is it Clazuril?
> 
> fp



Yes, Appertex is Clazuril and is meant to be a one shot administration....

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

How many days did you do Spartrix for?


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Sorry, I edited that thread. No, I do not give them Garlic caps I do have some tho.
I have garlic softgels which are 2 mg and I have
Garlic Tablets which are 1200 mg. Can I cut the garlic tab up and do it that way?


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

How many days did you do Spartrix for?
2


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

KIPPY said:


> Sorry, I edited that thread. No, I do not give them Garlic caps I do have some tho.
> I have garlic softgels which are 2 mg and I have
> Garlic Tablets which are 1200 mg. Can I cut the garlic tab up and do it that way?


Treesa was on the garlic, but she's off right now. Yes, you could cut them if
you think too big in size, the strength seems fine.

fp


----------



## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

Kippy,
Birds that get sick and then die very quickly could have Adeno virus. Throwing up is a symptom. I wouldn't wait so put the surviving birds on Amox asap. Also, treat for canker. Adeno virus, if this is what it is, can't be cured but it brings with it, a heavy infection of ecoli and that can be controlled. I think the hale storm is coincidental unless it kicked up the virus and spread it around.


----------



## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

"How many days did you do Spartrix for?
2"

If you're going to assume this may be canker, then go for 5 straight days.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

My only concern w/jumping on the Amoxicillin was if Kippy were going to the vet and actually getting some work ups done that it may mask what's going on if 
bacterial. Maybe this is a non-issue.

fp


----------



## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

fp,

This is one of those situations where nobody knows what the right thing to do is. Kippy has to make the decision to wait or not. Normally, when you take a bird in to a vet, the vet will first take a blood test to see if the white cell count is up. If it is, the vet gives an Doxy injection that lasts for one week while he or she waits for the rest of the tests to come in. 

I don't know if this is Adeno. Death came fast enough to guess that it may be Adeno. It's ecoli that kills the birds with this virus, so an antibiotic would have to be started asap to try and protect the other birds. Pastuerella can also kill as quickly.

I agree. This is a tough choice..damned if you do and damned if you don't. If it were me, I would start Amox immediately but that's me and I'm not Kippy so it has to be her choice.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> fp,
> 
> This is one of those situations where nobody knows what the right thing to do is. Kippy has to make the decision to wait or not. Normally, when you take a bird in to a vet, the vet will first take a blood test to see if the white cell count is up. If it is, the vet gives an Doxy injection that lasts for one week while he or she waits for the rest of the tests to come in.
> 
> ...



Well, there's at least one right answer...a longer course w/Spartrix. Too bad there isn't an emergency clinic that could do the blood draw today and start that ball rolling. It would be good to get a necropsy as well on one of the birds that succumbed.

fp


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Kim just sent me these pictures of recent droppings found in the aviary.

They have nothing to do with Zeke or Judah. They are both in isolation.

Cindy


----------



## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

Well, they're certainly not normal. Something is going on if these are consistent droppings so rather than go through the gamut of medications and pumping all kinds of stuff into the birds, guessing what this could be, I would take them into a vet along with fresh droppings. I wonder if the birds that passed on had these type of droppings.


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Adeno? What is that? I tried to locate it in Chevita.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> Well, they're certainly not normal.
> 
> * *Something is going on if these are consistent droppings so rather than go through the gamut of medications and pumping all kinds of stuff into the birds, guessing what this could be, I would take them into a vet along with fresh droppings.*
> 
> ** *I wonder if the birds that passed on had these type of droppings.*


* Unfortunately that won't be until tomorrow. It's Sunday, Super Bowl Sunday at that.  

** Only one bird has passed away & I hope it stays that way.
A few minutes before Kippy passed away, she did poop. It was a runny yellow. 

Cindy


----------



## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

Kippy, 
Here is a link that explains Adeno. The symptoms are similar but you can't assume this is it. 
http://www.oropharma.com/en/duiven/html/diarree.html


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

They all got a Garlic pill. What should I do about the water? ACV, electrolytes,prime(vitamins,minerals,amino acids supplement)?


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

While I am not a rehabber, nor can I comment and advise on pigeon ailments (other than information gained from Mr. Squeaks and his previous problems), I'm glad Pigeonperson and our other big guns are experessing their concerns and valuable information!

Kim - As the one who was petting Kippy when she died, I am VERY upset to hear about the other sick ones! I am so sorry! 

If I can help, please let me know!

Hopefully, a Vet visit will be able to pin down the cause!


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

ACV because it discourages both the multiplication of trichomonads and bad bacteria both of which populate in alkaline conditions both in the crop and in their drinking water.

fp


----------



## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

Kippy,
The stuff you want to give can't hurt them.


----------



## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

Cindy,
Yellow in the droppings is liver implication but it doesn't tell what this illness is.
Kippy has to tell this to her vet.


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Any suggestions on how much ACV?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

KIPPY said:


> Any suggestions on how much ACV?


From the formulary in Rupley's Manual of Avian Practice:

15ml/qt. of drinking water

"For use in asymptomatic birds with gram-negative rods and/or yeast on oral or fecal Gram Stain's."

fp


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

*15ml/qt. of drinking water*

What? 

I'm use to teaspoons and tablespoons. Call me old fashion.
Is that like a 1/2 a tablespoon to a quart of water?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Fifteen milliliters would be 1 tablespoon, so a significant increase (doubled) from the maintenance dose of 2 tablespoons per gallon. When using ACV in a routine maintenance program it's more in the range of 2 tablespoons per gallon unless
your birds look like Brad's, lol.

fp


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

_Previous quote by pigeonperson:
*I wonder if the birds that passed on had these type of droppings.* _



pigeonperson said:


> Cindy,
> *Yellow in the droppings is liver implication but it doesn't tell what this illness is.*
> *Kippy has to tell this to her vet.*


I was just answering the question you asked. 

Cindy


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> _Previous quote by pigeonperson:
> *I wonder if the birds that passed on had these type of droppings.* _
> 
> 
> ...


Adenovirus and canker both can produce yellow droppings and as pigeonperson
mentioned, it can be indicative of liver problems. I've also seen a bird pass
some pretty mucousy watery poops w/canker that cleared up w/typical canker
meds. You just hate to hang your hat on any one thing w/out a test to confirm
where you have others to worry about.

fp


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Kippy, I am so sorry, what a nightmare.
I hope you get to the bottom of this quickly and can treat your birds.

Reti


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Thank you everyone for your help and replies. 
This is a nightmare, I'm frustrated.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Kim,

The droppings in the photograph looked foamy. Is this correct?

Cynthia


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Kim,
> 
> *The droppings in the photograph looked foamy*. *Is this correct?*
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia,
I just got off the phone from talking to Kim. Believe it or not she just took in another suspected ill pij.  
she said the droppings didn't seem foamy. 

Cindy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Kim, 

I'm terribly sorry to her about Kippy This is another pigeon that has been around a long time and you must be devastated 

One thing I would suggest right now is giving your aviary a total and complete cleaning and disinfecting of EVERYTHING possible. 

I sure hope you can get fecal & blood tests done on Monday to see what those show.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kim, I am very sorry to read about your problem and especially that your Kippy has passed away.

Have you had any problems with worms? They can cause vomiting.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Kim,

I'm so very sorry for the loss of your beloved Kippy and the other bird. With other sick ones showing up, you definitely have your hands full. 

Terry


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I took the 2 sick ferals I caught today over to Nancy. One of them died on the way and the other she is not sure what's going on.
Nancy said if there was a yeast infection in a bird it would smell like baking bread. The dark green in the droppings is bile. 
I'm to feed Judah and Zeke baby chicken food, It's easier to digest since their vomiting.
I have to work tomorrow so I will call the vet and hopefully they have an appointment after I get off work. 
Zekes drinking pretty good on here own Judahs being fiesty as ever. They both look good, they don't look sick. Zeke looks better and Judah was never fluffed to begin with so, I just don't know


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Is there a state agency that will perform a necropsy or can Nancy perform one or know someone who will for free since it's a feral?


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> Is there a state agency that will perform a necropsy or can Nancy perform one or know someone who will for free since it's a feral?


Quite a while back Nancy told me that birds are sent to Tucson for a necropsy.
The down side is, they (whoever does the necropies) don't check for everything. If you want them to check for canker that's what they will check for, nothing else. If you want them to check for a variety of things you have to write them all down & there is a separate charge for everything.

Cindy


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cindy, are there any vets who perform free of charge services for wildlife that
would do a free necropsy on the feral?

fp


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> Cindy, are there any vets who perform free of charge services for wildlife that
> would do a free necropsy on the feral?
> 
> fp


Not that I know of & if Nancy didn't know of any, I highly doubt there is.

Cindy


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Kim,

I'm so sorry I cannot be of any help here, but please accept my condolences over the loss of Kippy....... What a sweetheart he was.....I am so sorry. I am really filled with sorrow over this Kim...I feel like I've lost a family member.

Linda


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Update*

I just wanted to post a quick update.

Kim was unable to get off work this afternoon so her Mom brought the worst of the three pijjies, this would be Judah, to my place & Shi & I accompanied her to go see Dr. Funk.

Upon exam, Judah's back was arched, she was listless (which she hadn't been previously) & fluffed a bit. 
There were few droppings in her carrier which were cream colored liquid with a small drop of solid dark dropping.

He checked for sour crop. Neg.
Although her crop was full of seeds (observed on the X-ray), there was no liquid. He was a little suspicious though.

X-rays were next. Positive for enlarged liver. Actually quite large.  

Nystatin was prescribed for yeast infection & Baytril for the liver issue. 
Enough was sent home to treat Zeke & Splash as well.  

When time permits, I'm sure Kim will post updates on how things are coming along. 

"Judah, Zeke & Splash, 
You take your medicine like good little girls. Don't stress out your Mom."  

Cindy


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

See if the vet can check for coccidioidomycosis. It's possible that the hailstorm might have kicked enough of the spores up. Hepatomegaly is one of the symptoms. That's not one that it's easy to find out much information, by the way. It's treated best in the Merck. It only gets passing mention in the avian formulary for the uses of Miconazole. It's not in the Big Book but it's in the Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook.

Actually, after more review, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about it and some of it doesn't exactly agree. It must be one of those things that deserves further study but is rare enough that it hasn't rated it. In any case, when it's bad, it's really bad. Hopefully, the afflicted birds will respond to the Baytril and it'll be something like Paratyphoid. That would be better than this.

Pidgey


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

They took there meds, still energetic enough to put up a fight. Zeke is eating. I noticed that cough you were talking about Cindy with Judah. I never heard that before. Judah is hanging in there and I pray that it's not too late.
The other guys seem to be doing fine. I was kind of curious if I am suppose to give them a garlic tab everyday?
Thank you Cindy and Shi for taking my mom up there. She would not have had a clue on what was going on. Not to mention the info I would have gotten back from my mom would have been confusing (pigeon health store). 
With my past health issue I've missed some work and I have to take off again for my MRI. It would have been too short of a notice and my Supervisor would not have understood. 
I will keep you posted...


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Update:
Zeke is fine, no longer fluffed, droppings look good. Splash is doing well. Pijes in the aviary are doing good.

Judah I'm not sure of. It seem like she gets hunched more after she eats. Judah still sounds like she is trying to cough something up. When she makes her pigeon noises it sounds rough and gurgly like there is something in there. 
Her doppings look to be the right color but sometimes the way the come out is just a little here and there. Today her droppings look good. There seems to be some king of blockage. 

The vet did say she had an enlarged liver. He put her on baytril and nystatin which the med course is done. She does eat but I only feed her a little and I feed here little seeds. She has not been throwing up at all. I'm not sure when her liver or if her liver will get down to normal size. I have milk thistle, I'm not sure if that would help. I have papaya enzymes, not sure if that will help. Judah has already had enough meds. She has prime in her water today and I was going to put some garlic in her water tomorrow. I have not been giving her any grit because of the meds and I guess I'm scared they might get stuck. I'm wondering if it is okay to give her grit? I ordered charcaol which I have now.

She is acting fine which, I guess doesn't mean much because there is something still going on. I honestly can't afford another x-ray.

As for the ferals in the backyard I put med pet 4-1 in their water. My incomming has stopped, Thank the Lord. I let 2 ferals go today. I still have the one that had the canker in his throat but still going to hang on to him for a little longer. He acts a little strange.

That is my update and if anyone has any ideas about Judah please let me know.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I have just read through this thread again and could find nothing on the results of a fecal to check on worms? Anyone know?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I have just read through this thread again and could find nothing on the results of a fecal to check on worms? Anyone know?


Dr. Colin Walker recommends worming three times a year, and this is without
fecal floats. This is aside from the issue of having detected them once in a float. Then there's the possibility of a migration through the liver and lungs before the return pilgimage to the intestine.

fp


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

The vet did not say anything about worms and he did no fecal. I'm don't know if a worming problem would show up on an x-ray.

I use to give them Global multi mix (canker,cocci and worms). I was trying to get away from the meds and I quit doing that. I never noticed anything crawling around in their droppings. I understand you probably can't always see them.

Would garlic do the trick? I really don't want to give Judah anymore meds.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Treesa has lots of info on good natural wormers and I believe uses Chaparal (sp) and Neem, but hopefully she'll see this and tell you herself. You surely can give garlic. 

They usually perform a fecal float, but as mentioned, the eggs don't always
show up in a float. Like the other problem organisms for pigeons, worms also
prefer an alkaline environment, so any time you keep things slightly acidic
it tends to keep the unfavorable populations down.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kim, the reason I keep bringing up worms is that, right now, we are in the midst of a "worm invasion". Most of this is due to the fact that we have dirt floors in our aviaries which we cover with shavings/bark; however, the bark doesn't seem to be a deterrent. We are making changes this spring to correct this problem.

We have a hen who appeared sick Thanksgiving day and we brought her in our home where she has been ever since. She has been treated for worms with Pyrentel, Panacur and Ivermectin - sometimes twice with the first two drugs. I am hopeful that finally we are seeing some positive results because she is steadily gaining weight and appears to be feeling really well.

Her symptoms were loss of weight, vomiting, listlessness, lethargy - in other words she was really sick. This pigeon lost *over 100 grams* during our battle but is slowly gaining it back to the point that tonight she weighed 414 grams. Our vet has worked so hard with this pigeon. She was extremely worried that there was liver involvement and had her blood analyzed which was negative for any liver damage. The liver and intestines can be badly damaged by worms burrowing into them and can cause death. Until this happened to us I had been too nonchalant about worms being life threatening but never again.

I really think a fecal should be done to rule out worms because the symptoms seem so similar to our bird's. I don't remember you mentioning whether there has been a significant weight loss with either Kippy or the others but it could help if you're able to weigh them frequently during this time.

I hope everything soon improves for you. God bless.


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I will have to send a sample too Jedds, Seigels or Foys. Any advice on which one. I never had that done before. The vet told me $100.00 last time I talked to him.

I just remembered I was giving Judah garlic pills before the vet and meds.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Kim,

I do use garlic capsules for my birds, they are a wonderful natural anti-parasitic, especially when the bird is in an already weakened state, you don't want to use the medicine kind, as an addition to whatever else the vet prescribes.

Garlic is just an all around immune builder and blood purifier, and I use it always when rehabbing.

I use Neem oil also as it is a natures remedy for alot of things. 

I believe sabina also used garlic and found it to be a wonderful antiparasitic.

The soft gel caps seem to work best, and the effects of long term use give excellent results.


----------



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i dont know anything about rehabbing really, but i do know that milk thistle works wonders for the liver on people. i had a friend that got hep c from a tattoo years back and she took milk thistle and it is now gone, even liver doctors recommended it to her. 
although, I HAVE NO CLUE IF ITS SAFE FOR BIRDS!!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

xxmoxiexx said:


> i dont know anything about rehabbing really, but i do know that milk thistle works wonders for the liver on people. i had a friend that got hep c from a tattoo years back and she took milk thistle and it is now gone, even liver doctors recommended it to her.
> although, I HAVE NO CLUE IF ITS SAFE FOR BIRDS!!


My rehabber who has treated many birds in her career, has treated birds for toxic livers, using Milk Thistle, and it works very well. You just crush the seed of the thistle as you use it, and add just a little amount in their food daily. Reishi is also excellent for detox for the liver, as well as turmeric.


----------

