# Some more baby pigeon questions...



## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

So, today I decided that my poor pigeon baby was in NEED of a nest cleaning. I lifted him gently onto clean nest while I wiped out all the poo from his bowl. I then filled it with clean shavings and placed him back in. One thing I noticed when cleaning is how weird his poo looks. It looks like a long curly pile, not the round plump pile mom/dad/aunt/uncle have. Is that normal? 

Also, now that I can get a good shot of his front...which part is the crop? I know it's general location, but nothing specific. Someone mentioned they could tell what was in their squab's crop. How did they do that?

Also, my flock has had abnormally loose poop, but no other symptoms. What should I do?

See in yesterday's pictures how much poo there is around the bowl? There was almost double that today.










Here's some pictures of my baby from today:



















Could someone point out my pigeons crop in these pictures? Like maybe use paint and circle it or something? Oh, and from these pictures does his crop look full?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's the crop and yes, it looks full to me!!


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Thank you for pointing that out! That is where I thought it was, but I just wanted to make sure I was right. 

What about his poo...is it okay that it's not the same consistency as the adults?


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

That's the sign of happy full crop baby...Don't you love seeing those crop when its full...Like a jello...They cant hardly stand up when its really full...


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Crop, the one that grows big after feed time just like what Renee circled.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

So I pretty sure my baby has splay legs.  After I cleaned his bowl last night he must have hopped out because he was over by the food/water this afternoon. That's when I noticed his legs were a bit splayed. Also, the little guy is a bit on the stinky side today. Is that normal? He smelled a bit like stinky poo, but in my experience pigeons really don't have stinky poo.

When do they start feeding themselves? I was just reading somewhere else that the babies can't eat corn. So should I be getting a different feed for him? The feed I have has whole corn.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Here's the pictures...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

They will generate an interested in eating on their own when watching their parents, usually they will start trying to pick up a seed here and there at about 18 days of age, but they won't get good at it until they are a week or so older. Practice makes perfect. I usually start with small seeds and eventually they will pick up the born.

If the legs are splayed you can gently tape them in the position they need to be in, as long as he is not trying to walk. They should be neatly folded under them when they are sitting, the above pictures aren't that bad, but you need to keep a close eye out and tape them for a few days. Some skid resistent material, like rubermaid shelving is good at giving them traction so their feet don't come out or slide out from under them.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

How do I tape his legs? Anyone care to explain more in detail? Or pictures would be the best! What kind of tape and where do I place it?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow said:


> How do I tape his legs? Anyone care to explain more in detail? Or pictures would be the best! What kind of tape and where do I place it?


Is the baby staying in the bowl now? I agree with Treesa that they don't look so bad in the pictures. I think the fact that he was out of the bowl and on a "slicker" surface is why the legs look to be further apart than they should be, but I think the legs are ok. The baby is right at that age where he's CLOSE to being able to walk, but isn't QUITE there and his little body is still just a bit too fat for his legs.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

How about the stinky poo? Anything to worry about?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow said:


> How about the stinky poo? Anything to worry about?


I'm not sure what you mean by stinky......LOL.......true that pigeon poop doesn't normally "stink"....however, when babies are pooping poop on top of poop for days and days.........it DOES smell....especially in the nest bowl where they're sitting in it and keeping it "warm", as opposed to what on the outside that gets cold or drys out....sort of hard to explain......now, sometimes you will get a set of parents that give their babies a LOT of water....I have some that do and some that don't. Being in individual pens with each pair having their own water container, it's easier for me to notice. They all get the same amount of water but at the end of the day some have more left than others. What goes in must come out. 
It's never been a problem, except for the wetter droppings for a few days. I contribute it to the parents, especially the hen, eating more grit because she's preparing to lay more eggs and pumping babies and about that time, the babies are around 12 to 15 days old and that's when the wetter poop appears. 
I guess a picture of the poop might help to see if that's what I see.........does your camera have smell-a-vision??? LOL


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

everthing sounds normal to me, in his nest bowl just make a divot in the middle so the shavings are higher on the sides and that can help keep his legs under him and his legs should be fine, they are still flexable now as he is young. this is the age I start to hold them and even pop a few seeds in the mouth just to get them used to me....he/she is very cute....and the poops they do change and can have an odor because of the volume of them. give your organic apple cidar vinegar in the water a few times a week, helps grow good bacteria for digestion, Im sure you know that already but thought I would remind about that.


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

*baby pigeon/croup*



moonshadow said:


> So, today I decided that my poor pigeon baby was in NEED of a nest cleaning. I lifted him gently onto clean nest while I wiped out all the poo from his bowl. I then filled it with clean shavings and placed him back in. One thing I noticed when cleaning is how weird his poo looks. It looks like a long curly pile, not the round plump pile mom/dad/aunt/uncle have. Is that normal?
> 
> Also, now that I can get a good shot of his front...which part is the crop? I know it's general location, but nothing specific. Someone mentioned they could tell what was in their squab's crop. How did they do that?
> 
> ...


oh,wow..here we go,..pictures talk,..the croup is under the beek-with head down position,,..every loft could probably use improvement,but you have problems,.the nest must be bigger/there is a health risk of confining the baby in its own poops/choice given it wll turn away from where it is nesting-to keep clean/i like plastic 2/3 liter-nest box with orchard grass/changed every couple days(min)-.hygeine is important (husbandry)-get out the clorox,vinyl-gloves and scraper-have at it..baby looks 10 days old,will be fully grown,feathered in 30 days/they grow fast ,/.when eggs hatch i bring out the crumble(disolves quicker,easier to feed/made of corn,looks like grape nut cereal-purchase at your local grain feedery,ie cows,horses,pigs,chickens,),..what name have you decided on for your baby,..why only one??,..sincerely james waller [email protected]


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

I already clean my loft with clorox bleach when there are no babies and pine sole when there are babies. I feel the pine sole has less odor then the bleach. Less fumes I guess. Anyways, there seems to be plenty of room in the nest bowl to me. I had too much shaving in there after I changed the bedding, so I took some out and that made more room. There's only one squab because the other egg never hatched. I didn't know the cedar chips weren't okay when I bought a HUGE bag of them. I plan to use up the bag and then switch to something better. We have pine trees in our yard, so I'm thinking of raking up some of those to use.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

dont worry you are doing fine , as long as the bottom of the nest bowl is covered with at least an inch think of shavings the babys legs should be able to not slide out from under it and dont worry about how small it is as you only have the one ... as for cleaning just clean as much of the poop up as posible but you dont need to worry about bleaching now especially now that theres a baby present ..sometimes cedar is hard on their eyes and respitory system thats why pine shavings or pine needles or tobbaco stems are better as a base in the bottom of the nest but you would have already seen a problem by now if there was one ..just keep doing what your doing and make sure he has a good ground cover in the bottom of the nest for his legs to grip and you should be ok


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

My birds pick up those pine tree needles during breeding. I put some on the floor and let them build their nest with it. I usually put pine needles on the nest bowl though first to let them get started, then I let them do the exercise of building the nest. I have one bird that is a thief. He usually goes to somebody else's nest bowl and "steal" the pine tree needles stuff. He makes the biggest nest on his nest box. If you want to put those cedar or pine shavings, you can use the bigger variety(medium size) instead of the smaller ones. And put a lot so that you can't see the bottom of the bowl. I sometimes put some twigs on those nest bowl as well to create traction.


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

Baby looks fine. I would probably use a larger nest bowl next time (If there were two squabs in there, they would have a heck of a time with it, I think.) I do not see splayed legs, but I am only seeing the bird from the side. If you look at the baby head on and both legs are sticking out, more to a 45 degree angle, then you would probably need to work on the taping of the legs.
The poop you mentioned is probably normal. I would just clean a little more. Please be careful using the bleach and pine cleaner. When I have babies in the nest, I spray vinegar (Apple type) into the nesting area as a disinfectant. The high acid content will kill most bacteria. Once the squab is moving about on its own, I give the nest area a thorough cleaning with diluted bleach.
My birds eat both pellets and grains. The parents will feed the baby and they, the babies, manage to digest all of it. (Corn, peas, milo, wheat and pellets.) I have noticed that some babies and adults have loose stools, but nothing to worry about. I am surprised at how stout pigeons are.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

I do not use the cleaners in the babies area of the room. I use it on the floor of the room, but when I clean the nest bowl I use very diluted pine cleaner, then rinse the bowl and dry it with paper towels well before putting in more shavings. I highly doubt there's any cleaner on it when I'm done with it. 

Thanks for all the help.  I'll put him out to sit on a towel today and see how his legs seem before making a decision.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> I do not use the cleaners in the babies area of the room. I use it on the floor of the room, but when I clean the nest bowl I use very diluted pine cleaner, then rinse the bowl and dry it with paper towels well before putting in more shavings. I highly doubt there's any cleaner on it when I'm done with it.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.  I'll put him out to sit on a towel today and see how his legs seem before making a decision.


Actually, using it in the same room with them isn't a great idea. The smell of the bleach isn't good for them. Or for any pigeon actually. And they still get the fumes from it. I like Tek Trol from N.E. Pigeon Supply. It's a disinfectant-cleaner concentrate. And it has hardly any smell at all. You can clean the whole loft with them in there, and it won't bother them. I soak the feeders and waterers with bleach and water, and completely rinse them out and let them dry before reusing. Just an idea.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Well, I was using Pine Sol, so hopefully that's not as bad as bleach. I was using the bleach for the feeders/waters. I'll discontinue using the bleach as a cleaner, though. I'll check out that cleaner when I order the meds I need.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

What does everyone think of his legs today?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Is this baby banded? Do you have any snap on bands?


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Yup. He's banded.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow said:


> Yup. He's banded.


So you have any snap on bands? I personally would go ahead and tie the babies legs together for a few days. Looking at the baby head on, that left leg (right side of pictures) COULD be a problem. Certainly won't hurt anything and it's better safe than sorry and you're getting very close to that "window" where tieing them together may or may not work. I'd sure give it a shot.
I ask about the snap band, because if you've got some there's a very simple way to tie the legs together using the band that's already there and a snap band on the other leg.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Oh, no I don't have any snap on bands. Could I just use painters tape? I know that is easy to get off, so I thought it might work. So should I tape together the leg below the joint? The little guy is staying in the nest bowl, so yeah, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

One more question about the smelly baby...

Could he has Canker? Look at his beak in this picture.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

looks like he just ate and forgot to use his napkin, Im sure he is fine. you might want to make a divot in the middle of the nest bowl to keep his legs under him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> One more question about the smelly baby...
> 
> Could he has Canker? Look at his beak in this picture.


That looks like food on his beak to me. He will smell a bit, as he was in a bowl with poops before you changed it. When he gets older, you can bath him. I really don't think he is sick.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

By the way, he's just simply adorable! He's a beautiful baby.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow said:


> Oh, no I don't have any snap on bands. Could I just use painters tape? I know that is easy to get off, so I thought it might work. So should I tape together the leg below the joint? The little guy is staying in the nest bowl, so yeah, it shouldn't be a problem.


I guess you can use painters tape. I know what that is, so it will come off easily. Just don't get it too tight and bring his legs close enough together but not TOO close......don't want him to be uncomfortable. You probably only need to leave it on for 4 or 5 days.........


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This link shows another way of treating splay leg. You might want to check it out

http://www.parrotparrot.com/splay/


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Look at those tiny little feathers!!! Sooooooo sweet! I know ... you guys have all seen it before...but that's the 1st time I've seen a pij that young. Are they all white feathered at that age? When does the 1st molt happen? Can you tell what color (s)he'll be? 

Moonshadow, I (and _Luna_) just want to thank you (and _Squishy_ ) for being a few weeks ahead of us. I can learn it all from your posts .... and be ready when _Luna_ gets there!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> Well, I was using Pine Sol, so hopefully that's not as bad as bleach. I was using the bleach for the feeders/waters. I'll discontinue using the bleach as a cleaner, though. I'll check out that cleaner when I order the meds I need.


Bleach water is fine for the nest bowls, as long as you thoroughly rinse it and it is completely dry before putting it back with the baby. Having two bowls the same helps. You can use one while the other one is drying. You don't want to use a different looking bowl though, as this could upset the parents, and they have even been known to abandon the baby because of a change in nest bowls. But if they look exactly the same, they don't know the difference.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

wolfwood said:


> Look at those tiny little feathers!!! Sooooooo sweet! I know ... you guys have all seen it before...but that's the 1st time I've seen a pij that young. Are they all white feathered at that age? When does the 1st molt happen? Can you tell what color (s)he'll be?
> 
> Moonshadow, I (and _Luna_) just want to thank you (and _Squishy_ ) for being a few weeks ahead of us. I can learn it all from your posts .... and be ready when _Luna_ gets there!


The babies feathers are white, because he is from white homers, and he will be white. They come in different colors. They do often change some as they grow, and after the molt.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks everyone. wolfwood-I'm having fun following your baby story too. 

What does everyone think of trying this method? It's from the website that Jay suggested.










I have some sponge I could use...


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Bleach water is fine for the nest bowls, as long as you thoroughly rinse it and it is completely dry before putting it back with the baby. Having two bowls the same helps. You can use one while the other one is drying. *You don't want to use a different looking bowl though, as this could upset the parents, and they have even been known to abandon the baby because of a change in nest bowls.* But if they look exactly the same, they don't know the difference.



This is VERY true. I had to hand raise two babies because I did exactly that. I've got some old bowls that are flat on the bottom that I never use unless I'm giving dummy eggs........I'm through breeding, so I gave one of these bowls to a pair of birds to lay their third round of eggs in. I JUST came from the loft, and Mom laid her eggs in the bowl with her babies. She didn't want anything to do with that "weird" looking bowl. LOL


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> Thanks everyone. wolfwood-I'm having fun following your baby story too.
> 
> What does everyone think of trying this method? It's from the website that Jay suggested.
> 
> ...


here is a pic for comp. this one is about the same age as yours and you can see his big feet on either side, he has feathers on his though.he grew up just fine.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvqceKqJWMU

I was trying to get a shot of him moving, so you could see his legs, but all he wanted to do was hiss and peck at me.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

So you think I should leave him Spirit?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> This is VERY true. I had to hand raise two babies because I did exactly that. I've got some old bowls that are flat on the bottom that I never use unless I'm giving dummy eggs........I'm through breeding, so I gave one of these bowls to a pair of birds to lay their third round of eggs in. I JUST came from the loft, and Mom laid her eggs in the bowl with her babies. She didn't want anything to do with that "weird" looking bowl. LOL


That's funny! What will you do now? It must be getting kind of crowded in that one bowl. LOL.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> So you think I should leave him Spirit?


Spirit is perfect.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Okay I'll leave him tonight and check his legs again tomorrow.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Okay this video shows his legs real well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfeGZQ05Cbo

What does everyone think? I think they look much better!


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

ALWAYS keep more nesting material, in the bowl. The best cure i have found for splayed legs is to gently tie them closer together with twine, it is better done at a young an age as possible, watch them, and when they are using their legs better remove the twine. Although i have used dog bowls, you MUST make sure there is A LOT of wood chips, straw ect, or you will have problems with legs, I much prefer the paper/card board bowls, better traction, and you just toss them between rounds of youngsters. If you use the plastic dog bowls, (which i have no problem with) wrap burlap around them and tuck it under. Dave


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> Okay this video shows his legs real well...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfeGZQ05Cbo
> 
> What does everyone think? I think they look much better!


his legs are fine....


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks spirit!

Yeah, next time I'll try to get something different for them to nest in. For now, though, if she tries to start another batch I plan to replace them with dummy eggs. So, maybe the dog bowl will work find for that.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

New question! Daddy of the baby is now nesting with a different hen. Does that mean he's going to stop feeding his other baby? I am holding Scooter right now and his crop feels empty.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow said:


> New question! Daddy of the baby is now nesting with a different hen. Does that mean he's going to stop feeding his other baby? I am holding Scooter right now and his crop feels empty.


You guys and your soap operas!!! LOL.....I can't keep them all straight? The Daddy of which baby? Why is he nesting with another hen? Where's Momma to the baby? Is Scooter this birds baby too?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> New question! Daddy of the baby is now nesting with a different hen. Does that mean he's going to stop feeding his other baby? I am holding Scooter right now and his crop feels empty.


at this age they feed the baby a few times a day, so make sure he is in his nest to get fed, esp in the am and afternoon. middle of the day might be a better time to hold him. as far as the dad bird, could be flirting, but not much you can do bout that. he should still feed his baby. but keep and eye on the youngun.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

ROFL. Okay let me see if I can put this straight. I have 4 adult homers(+the little one), which I believe to be 3 hens and 1 cock. 2 are 07's and 2 are 08's. The baby (Scooter-or whatever he ends up being) is the baby of the two 07 birds. Now the 07 cock is mating with one of the 08 birds. I keep all my birds in the same room, so both the 07 hen and 07 cock still have access to the baby. My question is if the daddy is off with his new girlfriend, then what happens to his duties with his ex-wife and their kid. Will he continue to feed Scooter? I have NEVER found Scooter's crop empty, but today it seemed to be flat/empty.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> at this age they feed the baby a few times a day, so make sure he is in his nest to get fed, esp in the am and afternoon. middle of the day might be a better time to hold him. as far as the dad bird, could be flirting, but not much you can do bout that. he should still feed his baby. but keep and eye on the youngun.


So it's a bad thing that I put him back in the nest box on a towel? He was out of his nest this morning and sitting in the middle of the slippery cold nest box. When I took him out to hold him I snuggled him into a towel. When I went to put him back he was so warm and comfy in his towel, that I left it in there with him. Is that bad? Should I go take it away?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> So it's a bad thing that I put him back in the nest box on a towel? He was out of his nest this morning and sitting in the middle of the slippery cold nest box. When I took him out to hold him I snuggled him into a towel. When I went to put him back he was so warm and comfy in his towel, that I left it in there with him. Is that bad? Should I go take it away?


yes you instincts are right, take the towel away, that might have freaked out mom and dad, they don't like change and he might of missed his pm feeding.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow said:


> So it's a bad thing that I put him back in the nest box on a towel? He was out of his nest this morning and sitting in the middle of the slippery cold nest box. When I took him out to hold him I snuggled him into a towel. When I went to put him back he was so warm and comfy in his towel, that I left it in there with him. Is that bad? Should I go take it away?


If the towel is something new, then yes, you should take it out. That could be just enough to keep Dad from going in and feeding the babies and contrary to what some think, they're memory *can* be very short. It's very possible that he would just "forget" about the baby and go on to whatever is next in his pigeon life. 
Just because he's having a fling with the girl next door doesn't mean that he'll abandon his baby, without a good reason to. 
Take the towel out and keep an eye on them for a while.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2009)

yeah I agree , take the towel out ... if you havent read already pigeons hate change and when you change things inside the coop they tend to freak out an abandon their nest and babys ..once you take it out all should return to normal


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Well, I went down to take the towel out and the little bugger was sitting next to the towel with a FULL crop.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow said:


> Well, I went down to take the towel out and the little bugger was sitting next to the towel with a FULL crop.


LOL.......figures............


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> Well, I went down to take the towel out and the little bugger was sitting next to the towel with a FULL crop.


oh goodie!


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Here's the video from today:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a41/JessicaBe/?action=view&current=100_3261.flv

He was much more feisty today. Doesn't want anything to do with me. Yet, when I wrapped him in a towel and held him in my lap he seemed to like it.


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