# Newbie questions about Rec. Red, Rec. White



## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Hello,
First let me tell you that I'm very new to pigeons and only have a basic understanding of their color genetics. 
Recently I picked up some young homers. I got 4 whites, a recessive red and a yellow. One of the whites is showing some very uniform red markings on neck and a fine spider webbing on it's back. Very neat looking bird but it makes me wonder if the white is covering recessive red that is showing through a little? I'm guessing since all the guy had I got them from was red, yellow and whites that both could be in there. 

On the recessive red and yellow I'm wondering if spread can be seen on them if it is in there? He had told me that a while ago he had some blue bar saddles that he bred to his reds and got black. That makes me think that his reds have spread in them but they all looked pretty well the same to me. Mostly poorer recessive reds with plenty of blue showing through on the rumps.
I'm just not sure if it has an effect that would show up on the recessive red.
I'll get a blue bar/check if I think there is even a chance to get some blacks... once I figure out if they are hens or cocks. 

Here are some photos if that helps. I at least think they are recessive red and yellow. They are molting pretty heavy right now.









Here is the white with the red showing through on the neck and back. Strangely this afternoon I noticed a lot of sheen on this one and another white when I had my polarized glasses on. 









This is the only one I'm pretty sure is a cock since he coos and struts all the time.

Thanks for looking through my rambling questions. I'm just looking forward to the possibilities of next spring's youngsters.

Tim


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Hello Tim,
welcome to the forum.
Funny that you mention all this because I just did a video a week or so ago about spread and then recessive red. Yes your RR could be a blue spread (black) underneath, however it is not essenstial for RR. RR is epestatic so it hides most things gene wise. 
I have never worked recessive white however I would guess it would not show any signs or being RR underneath (though it could be), though it like RR is even more epestatic so all pigment gets removed. Even in the eye so your left with a "bull eye".

Here is a link to the RR video and you can navigate to the one before about spread if you like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WkBk9bzpwU

As far as the white with red flecking through. Like I said I doubt that one is RW. Looks like it is an ash red grizzle. Probably with spread and some random pied as well.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Thank you AZCorbin. I enjoy your videos, it's easier for me to understand when there are good visuals with it like that.
I think I'll pick up a blue or an ash red split with blue cock to see what pops up. I'm thinking right now that the red one is a hen. I'm sure hoping that spread is in all of his reds. I'm really wanting some blacks. I haven't been able to find any close by so I guess making my own is the next best thing to try.

Tim


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

So I have a black cock with a Rr mother and a black father, to breed a Rr what color hen should I mate him to? Or maybe any color hen carrying Rr?


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Just seeing if I'm figuring out this genetic stuff. I'd say the easiest would be a RR or a RY. That would give you 50% RR unless the cock is split for dilute then it could be 25% RR and 25% RY. The rest would be black unless the hen is ash red underneath, then you would get some spread ash red also. I think. 
You could also use any colored hen that is split for RR. Then you are going to get far fewer RRs.

Tim


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Ssyybfamloft said:


> So I have a black cock with a Rr mother and a black father, to breed a Rr what color hen should I mate him to? Or maybe any color hen carrying Rr?


the cock should carry the RR cause its mother pass it on to him. If you want to breed out another rec. red. You need to pair him up with a hen that is a rec. red herself or know that she also carry the rec. red genes. they you will get some rec. red out of them. hope this help.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> the cock should carry the RR cause its mother pass it on to him. If you want to breed out another rec. red. You need to pair him up with a hen that is a rec. red herself or know that she also carry the rec. red genes. they you will get some rec. red out of them. hope this help.


Sevensouls, Rec red is not sex linked so we cannot know if the cock or hen passed it on.


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## bigislerollers (Jan 20, 2008)

Hmmmmm. 
A non recessive red offspring bred off of a recessive red parent. Sex linked or not, almost anyone would know what parent the recessive red gene came from. 

Gotta luv the IE's.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Sevensouls, Rec red is not sex linked so we cannot know if the cock or hen passed it on.


what do mean? Of course this have nothing to do with sex linked. Maybe i should rephrase what i said.

If the mother is a rec. red, there is a chance the offspring may carry the rec. red genes. So in yours case TimJ, if your cock bird carry the rec. gene(passed down from his mother) but just dont express it and breed to a hen that either carry the rec. red or express rec. red, then you should get some rec. red babies. there.

i think rec.red and rec.white works the same way as ginger people. 

here is a episode from South Park that you can watch and get a little humor information on the recessive gene.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e11-ginger-kids

by the way, Cartman speech is wrong. Listen to the parent with ginger kids. also AZCorbin videos are very informative too.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Sorry I misunderstood your post sevensouls. I thought you were saying that the rec red will always swap sexes in the young, Dexter, Yes you are right, I didn't word my post very well, I was meaning in general terms.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> what do mean? Of course this have nothing to do with sex linked. Maybe i should rephrase what i said.
> 
> *If the mother is a rec. red, there is a chance the offspring may carry the rec*. red genes. So in yours case TimJ, if your cock bird carry the rec. gene(passed down from his mother) but just dont express it and breed to a hen that either carry the rec. red or express rec. red, then you should get some rec. red babies. there.
> 
> ...


All young will carry rec red if the mother is rec red.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Interesting thread. And nice job on the video AZCorbin. This is right up my alley as I am working on breeding Recessive reds with spread and T-pattern. I have notice in my birds that I can often tell which of my recessive reds are also spread. On those that are not, I can clearly see the tail bar in the recessive red coloring. This is most evident in those that have some blue bleeding through. My recessive reds that are spread, do not display the tail bar. the tail is uniform color throughout it's length. I don't know if this is always the case and I would not infer that it is, but it is what I have observed in my birds. Seems anytime we draw conclusions on a small population, someone comes along and submits an exception to what we thought was true.

Right now I have a couple blacks which are split for RR, I have a RR cock which is not spread, a RR hen which is split for spread, a R Yellow which is split for spread and **** T pattern, and a dilute **** T pattern hen split for RR. These are the building blocks of my project. 

I just hatched (3 weeks ago) two t-pattern young which are split for RR from the dilute t pattern hen and the RR cock above. Next year these will be paired up with my blacks which are RR split and I should be on my way. 

My goal is to have every young bird I breed be RRed, RYellow or Black. I want a whole flock of them flying around and racing. I am using Meulmanns and Trentons for this project.

Jim


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Jim, you've got it figured out perfectly. Only thing to be aware of is that you will also breed dunn color birds from your plan because of the dilute gene involved in your rec. yellows.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

TimJ, I think you may have many more color genes in your birds than you imagine. The whites appear to express ash red, grizzle, piebald and maybe rec. white (if no colored feathers are expressed). The rr bird with a tail band is probably blue based and the darker rr may be spread blue, brown or ash red (can't identify) along with whatever gene is causing the occasional white feathers in it's plumage. If you mate the whites to the reds you'll produce a rainbow of colors and patterns. You could try a blue mate for the dark red to determine if it is spread. The best scenario would be to mate each of them to blue mates and determine what each birds genetic makeup is.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

tmaas I hope you are right. I only want one or two breeding pairs so my first plan is to pair the white cock with red markings on his neck to either the red or yellow if one of them turns out to be a hen. If they both start to strut and coo then I'll try one of them with one of the pure whites that I'm thinking is a hen.

I'll probably pick up a blue bar/check later on to pair up with one if I'm not getting what I want. I just want some different colors to fly around, not really looking for anything special.

Tim


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

*Update*

Well it turned out that I had only one hen in the bunch. She is pure white and has paired up with the recessive red.
Here they are taking a bath.









Their first pair of eggs failed because of the extreme cold and them just being too young. Their second attempt just hatched last night. I didn't expect them both to hatch today but they did and that is great. So now we will see what they can produce. No dilutes from the look of that fuzz.










Tim


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Any ideas?
Looks like some sort of Red Grizzle to me but I don't know much about this stuff. They have dark legs and feet so I'm pretty sure the have dirty in them. They look very similar so far with one having just a little more grey showing in the wings. They are both looking very white in most of the chest and rump.



















I know it is early and in a couple more weeks it will be easier to tell but these are my first babies. As fast as they grow I'm still impatient. 

Tim


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

I dont think the your red bird is a recessive red. Rec. red bird will have pink beak and yous does not seem to have it. It seem like you red bird is a just a ash red(t-patter velvet) or i could be wrong and its a blue bird with indigo mimicking a ash red bird. Which ever, its not a rec. red.

About the babies, both are red grizzle. (just guessing but its seem like those red marks on the babies are indigo marks...) 
I assume that the pure white bird(the mother) is grizzle underneath.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

sev3ns0uls said:


> I dont think the your red bird is a recessive red. Rec. red bird will have pink beak and yous does not seem to have it. It seem like you red bird is a just a ash red(t-patter velvet) or i could be wrong and its a blue bird with indigo mimicking a ash red bird. Which ever, its not a rec. red.
> 
> About the babies, both are red grizzle. (just guessing but its seem like those red marks on the babies are indigo marks...)
> I assume that the pure white bird(the mother) is grizzle underneath.


I think the beak looks dark because it's in a dark shadow in the pic. The first pic in this thread, of him, looks like unimproved rr on blue or brown.

The white mom is probably **** grizzle ash red rather than rec. white, therefor all her sons will be ash red grizzle and both young are likely cocks. The rr father appears to show a tail band so is not spread nor ash so must be blue or brown therefor all blue or brown youngsters will be hens and would be good candidates to get mated back to their father for production of rr.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

His beak is pinker then it looks but it isn't pink like the hens. His has a smudge of brown on the sides. 
One of the young ones had very dark feet and both have dark beaks. Wondering if this is dirty showing in them?

Tim


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

TimJ said:


> His beak is pinker then it looks but it isn't pink like the hens. His has a smudge of brown on the sides.
> One of the young ones had very dark feet and both have dark beaks. Wondering if this is dirty showing in them?
> 
> Tim


can you get another pic of the cock bird. I want to see its tail bar and its wing shield. Cause looks like i see some t-check. could a velvet. 

To: tmaas, yes i agree that it could be a unimproved rec. red.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Yep I can get a better picture of his tail and wing. I'd do it today but its snowing more then I want to be out in.

Tim


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Here are some better photos of the cock.




























Here is an updated chick photo.










Tim


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

If the bird was ash red t-check (velvet) then the tail band would express an ash (lighter shaded) color, but he has a darker band indicating he's blue or brown under the rec. red. I've also never seen an ash red who's flights are as red as his. Take note of the lighter ash colored wing flights and tail band beginning to emerge on the squabs, who are ash red grizzle. Also, the youngsters express red tips on their feathers which is typical for squabs who are het. rec. red. Even black and blue squabs who are het. rec. red show red tips on juvenile plumage. His beak is a bit dark for rr but the dirty gene, or some other modifier, may be responsible for it.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

In an earlier post I said that the hen was probably ****. grizzle, based on an earlier pic of your whites wherein one of them expressed some grizzling, but it's also possible that the hen is rec. white (masking, who knows what) and the grizzle gene is coming from the cock, whose stray white feathers are the result of rr and grizzle, since rr inhibits grizzle expression.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

yes, it is a unimproved rec. red with either blue or brown base. You're right, ash red bird's wing flight could not be that reddish in color. And i agree that the grizzle gene could have come from the cock. Yes, i believe the the cock has dirty gene.

I suspect the white hen must be grizzle underneath too(maybe she is hetero red grizzle) and this is sex-linked after all. Since both chick are red, which we know that the hen is diffidently a red bird underneath. And my guess is that this two babies will be cock bird no hen on this round.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Thanks you two, this helps a lot. The hen just laid her second egg of their second round. It will be interesting to see what they end up like.

I have a yellow (might be a sibling to the red) paired up with a blue grizzle. That should be interesting also. I need to pick up a plain blue or brown hen to make this a little easier.

Tim


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

I noticed this on one of the tails this morning. Seems to confirm the thoughts of two Ash Red males carrying Blue.










Tim


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

yes, just wait until they molt and they will have more fleck. That looks like a blue fleck to me. This has proven that the father is a blue base bird and the mother is a red grizzle underneath.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

sev3ns0uls said:


> yes, just wait until they molt and they will have more fleck. That looks like a blue fleck to me. This has proven that the father is a blue base bird and the mother is a red grizzle underneath.


Or the mom is rec. white masking ash red w/o grizzle, with the grizzle factor coming from the dad.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

The continuing saga of this pair.

Here are the latest youngsters at 3 weeks old.
This one should be a hen for sure. She is very dark in the head and neck, already showing some iridescence. She also shows a lot of what I assume is the Rec Red she carries. 



















Other then one feather in each wing there is no sign of grizzle. Using the pigeon gene calculator about the only way to get what I've gotten so far is for both parents to be hetero grizzle and for the mother to be rec white. 
Is it sooty, smokey of something like that in there also?

I thought this one was going to be another ash red grizzle cock but now that the tail is coming in I'm confused. Ash reds don't have tail bands do they? I wonder now if it is a dilute blue stork hen. 




















Thanks for any help. It's fun seeing what pops up next with this pair. They are on two more eggs then I'll probably separate them.

Tim


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Here is a photo of the two early on. Is the lighter one what a dilute squab looks like? The rec red cock could easily carry dilute since I got a rec yellow from this same place.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

The lighter one looks like a dilute blue in the picture when it is older. The bronze spots in the wing are even lightened.

I haven't seen a bird I would identify as a yellow in your pictures. Your original picture where you referred to a yellow had three birds in it. They looked like a white, a recessive red, and and ash red. Do you have a better picture of the yellow bird?


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Here is a better photo of the dilute rec red.










He just fathered these two babies with a blue grizzle.










Tim


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

TimJ said:


> Here is a better photo of the dilute rec red.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The cock looks recessive red, heterozygous almond, i.e. 'deroy'.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Deroy makes sense. At least one (possibly both) of the young in the nest looks to be short-downed (almond?) and if so, hens.

Jim


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

IF it is almond/deroy the sex of the babies can not be determined if the almond is the father. That is, an almond cock with a non-almond hen will produce almonds and nonalmonds of both sexes. An almond hen paired to a nonalmond cock, however, will produce only almond cocks and nonalmond hens. 
Nice colorful group of birds you have!! Like a box of chocolates.....


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Woodnative said:


> IF it is almond/deroy the sex of the babies can not be determined if the almond is the father. That is, an almond cock with a non-almond hen will produce almonds and nonalmonds of both sexes. An almond hen paired to a nonalmond cock, however, will produce only almond cocks and nonalmond hens.
> Nice colorful group of birds you have!! Like a box of chocolates.....


Correct. My mistake on that one. Almond cock can produce almond offspring of either sex.


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