# Loft Cleanliness



## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Dear Pigeon keepers

This may be an old subject and discussed many times here before but as i was reading this article i felt a bit puzzled with what cleaning a loft means and what is the real purpose of it

THE CLEANLINESS CONCEPT by John Clements
http://www.elimarpigeons.com/TheCC.htm

I myself clean the droppings once a week and my birds are healthy are fine, i reduce this intensity of cleaning practice in winter which also works for me. My question is do we really need to remove the droppings or it works if we keep the place dry and maintain proper ventilation?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I use to clean my lofts regularly.......daily/weekly, scrape, change the bedding.
I had all the regular pigeon illness's........canker with the young weaning birds, coccidia, worms, etc.
I read some of those articles about building their immune systems by not cleaning 'as much'. So I tried it.
My loft inside is completely dry with good ventilation and windows (with wire mesh) on each end that I open in the summer. They have a large flight cage (completely wrapped with wire mesh, even in the ground) with all purpose fine sand flooring over the wire. I keep their water dishes out in the flight cage, and feed inside the loft. I use 'bird/reptile hardwood chips (tiny)' for the bedding inside the loft, couple inches deep.
Now, for the past 2 years, I scrape and clean inside the loft 2 times a year! The sand around the water dishes has to be changed more often, because of all their splashing and playing in the water.
I use to have to deworm everyone 3-4 times a year. I started putting diatomacious earth mixed in with their food.....I haven't had to worm anyone this year!
Since changing my cleaning routine....my birds are healthier and seem happier. I've had no cases of coccidia, canker or salmonella.
I've noticed a big difference in their overall health and activity, and it has made life alot easier for me.
I know others won't agree with this.....but it works for me and my birds


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> I use to clean my lofts regularly.......daily/weekly, scrape, change the bedding.
> I had all the regular pigeon illness's........canker with the young weaning birds, coccidia, worms, etc.
> I read some of those articles about building their immune systems by not cleaning 'as much'. So I tried it.
> My loft inside is completely dry with good ventilation and windows (with wire mesh) on each end that I open in the summer. They have a large flight cage (completely wrapped with wire mesh, even in the ground) with all purpose fine sand flooring over the wire. I keep their water dishes out in the flight cage, and feed inside the loft. I use 'bird/reptile hardwood chips (tiny)' for the bedding inside the loft, couple inches deep.
> ...



Thanks for the input, i think there will be many out there who have similar practices in managing their birds health and some off course think vice versa 

I read several times here on different posts that the health inspector visited the site and observed the cleanliness of the loft which means that their is another aspect, does this cleaning is a legal requirement for keeping the pigeons in some areas?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well health inspectors would be concerned with cleanliness. The cleaner the loft, the less it will attract rats and such. A cleaner loft has to smell better. They of course do care about those things, as do the neighbors.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

I think rats or snakes will be coming in the loft for food and eggs and not because of the droppings


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

I agree that a totally spotless is not the way to go as the birds do build a immunity like Msfreebird said. But the rats and snakes also smell the dropping and that is a attractant. Kind of like a smelly food bell. You have to find the right medium for your loft. For me it was clean the boxes everyday and super clean the floor once a week.


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## LeeLu (Sep 23, 2012)

Msfreebird said:


> I use to clean my lofts regularly.......daily/weekly, scrape, change the bedding.
> I had all the regular pigeon illness's........canker with the young weaning birds, coccidia, worms, etc.
> I read some of those articles about building their immune systems by not cleaning 'as much'. So I tried it.
> My loft inside is completely dry with good ventilation and windows (with wire mesh) on each end that I open in the summer. They have a large flight cage (completely wrapped with wire mesh, even in the ground) with all purpose fine sand flooring over the wire. I keep their water dishes out in the flight cage, and feed inside the loft. I use 'bird/reptile hardwood chips (tiny)' for the bedding inside the loft, couple inches deep.
> ...


My breeder cleans his dove chalet (it's a 8' x 20' house on concrete slab) 2 times a year. He has all wood inside, with perches 2" x 4" --6" long attached from ceiling to a couple of feet off the floor, he has @ 200 white homing doves, Jannsans...what he does is covers the concrete slab floor with 4" of white beach sand..he changes the sand twice a year, the droppings dry quickly in the sand..no smell. He sands the wooden perches when needed...his chalet is divided into 3 sections, breeding/squabs/adults...all around the chalet 4 feet from the floor is a countertop, that jets out over the side with wire mesh screening that becomes windows that open and shut on a pully...in the roof he has 45 degree elbow pvc sewer connectors for traps, built into the roof with flat landing area before the pvc connectors. He has sand all around this chalet about 8 feet wide with a chainlink fence, 6 feet tall to keep predetors out, it is situated on the edge of a lake..facing the lake so when he lets the doves out, they fly around the lake and into his trees... He has the perfect setup, with little maintenance...his comment to me was you can not allow the sand inside to get wet; other than that, he has no problems with diseased birds...he also puts minced garlic in his food daily to eliminate parasites which keeps them healthy.


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

I scrape down 2 time a week . Either myself or Heather spends a great deal of time in the loft with the birds . this way we know how the birds are doing


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## LeeLu (Sep 23, 2012)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> I scrape down 2 time a week . Either myself or Heather spends a great deal of time in the loft with the birds . this way we know how the birds are doing


yeah. me too, only i clean their place everyday; they take baths everyday, i give them clean bath water everyday; and clean drinking water every 2 days or so....mine are inside and outside in an enclosed aviary with a house window being the pass-thru to the outdoor aviary...i love spending time with them, and they like coming inside to watch what i do.


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

I't will be interesting to see if there is a difference between people that show there birds like we do, and people that race and people that have birds just to have them


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## LeeLu (Sep 23, 2012)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> I't will be interesting to see if there is a difference between people that show there birds like we do, and people that race and people that have birds just to have them


i can tell you that my doves are very loving...i love on them all the time! i took my hen with me in the car to the breeder place, to pick out a cock for her...i had 2 females, and one flew away, so, she was very lonely. The breeder couldn't believe how well cared for she was, he said she was beautiful, as he examined her...he was amazed how tame she was and how she just rode in the car with me... Personally knowing your doves, i think makes them healthier, they are not just another dove in a flock; they know you and know you care about them and meet their needs...it's love.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The loft gets scraped twice a day, morning when I feed, and evening when I close it up. That's the floor and perches and shelves. Boxes are changed out when they get off the fake eggs. And the boxes are dusted or sprayed when changed. If they do hatch babies, once the they are about a week old, the boxes are changed out every other day, to keep it clean for the babies. Feed is put down in the morning and picked up at night. Water changed twice a day, sometimes more. 
And yes, rats and snakes come for the eggs or the birds, but a dirty loft will attract them a lot faster then a clean one.


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## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

I clean mine (8 X 20) once a week, usually on Saturdays when we are not racing. When we are, I usually clean on Saturday (while waiting for the birds to return) and Tuesday just to make sure everything (droppings) look good while racing. I feel they get a boost with their immune systems by letting some droppings build up a bit but not where its nasty. The key is to keep things as dry as possible!


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I won't comment on others practices but I scrape every day. I race my birds and do okay. I have two loft buildings and try to keep the numbers down to about 75 total . Like others have said...it works for me, 
and to each his own.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Well I have like 70 pigeons right now that includes German beauty homer, homing racers and high flyers. I fly my birds daily but do not race; I usually clean my loft once a week that includes scrapping of the concrete floor, cleaning of the perches, nest boxes and nesting bowls. Water pots, feeders and bathing pans are cleaned daily and I continue this practice from March to November, which is generally hot in here. 

When its starts to be cold here in the remaining three months I simply exclude the scraping of the floors, nest bowls and nest boxes. The person from whom I bought my foundation pair who is also a friend and mentor in the hobby suggested to do it this way. The reason behind is the weather impacts, these droppings work as insulation and the birds feel warm and similarly it also works as a immunity booster. It normally does not rain here except the monsoon so the place is dry and with a lot of fresh air. 

I am the only person who has to do the cleaning and scrapping so it is very difficult for me to clean the place when I do that after 2-3 months but it works for me, it may sound weird but in my experience, the birds stay healthy and feel happier this way and I have no such diseases in my loft.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LOL, So many different views. I was pleasantly surprised when I first tried the 'not cleaning so much method'. There is NO odor, because it is kept SO dry! The hardwood chip bedding is so deep on the floor that there's nothing to scrape. But as I stated earlier, I DO have to change the sand in the flight cage around the water dishes more regularly. The time between my complete cleanout, I do scrape perches......I can't stand to see poop build up on the perches! Water and food dishes are cleaned regularly.
When I was obsessively cleaning, I had mice and rats tunneling under the loft and flight cage. They couldn't get inside because of the wire mesh. I completely wrapped the flight cage....top, bottom and sides, then buried the bottom with sand. I landscaped to repel rodents. I planted spearmint, peppermint, orange mint and chocolate mint herbs around the lofts......smells pretty nice out there!...and I haven't seen any tell tail signs of rodents (holes or tunnels)! I've never had a snake issue, thank God  
Don't be mistaken. My lofts are not filthy. I have moderate maintenance between my major cleanouts to keep it looking nice. And alot more time to spend playing with and enjoying my birds.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I prefer a clean loft, definitely think the birds prefer it that way.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I do it when it looks like it needs it. The birds I think like it after I clean, they seem to act all spunky and wing flappy when I get done. The birds may be fine which ever way one chooses, but for me it grosses me out if I wait too long.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I clean/scrape/vacuum the YB section at least 2 times per day...When I start to wean the YB`s,I let some droppings dry up in my floor dressing(Oil Dry/automotive kind),NOT kitty litter,under the perches...The babies pick around in this,and have a better chance to get used to the germs associated within...Their immunity will build up real good,then after a few months,I start to clean out the floor dressing every day,to get the droppings out of the loft....The droppings give out vapors,which are not favorable to getting racing pigeons in form for racing...No matter how good your ventilation is,taking the FRESH droppings out of the loft is important....In this stage of the YB`s life,I do not give any medications...Only natural stimulants to help with keeping them healthy....Lemon juice,Apple Cider Vinegar,Onion,Garlic and Clorox....You can mix the Lemon/Slice Onion/ACV/Clove Garlic in with their water 2 times per week,or give one item per day seperatly...The Clorox is never mixed in with anything else EVER !!!I will end this post with these words....A loft full of (DRY)droppings on the floor ONLY,andf clean nest boxes and perches,will NOT harm the birds...But it will KILL YOU !!! The dust from a dry litter floor from droppings is just as bad for you as smoking...I have personally seem what it has done to a dear pigeon flyer friend...Another 3 pigeon guys (used to be pigeon guys),had to get rid of the birds...Doctor`s said the dust would clog their lungs,and could kill them in a few years...On the other side of keeping a loft clean,it makes it easier to maintain a even balance for the birds...A clean loft,NOT a STERILE loft is the way to go...My thought has always been,if I get a friend,that is NOT a pigeon guy,visiting my lofts,will I be ashamed to let him go inside to see the birds or not....If I have to make excuses why he can`t enter the loft,then the loft is not properly maintained...If you have a little grandchild,and the child wants to see grandpa`s pigeons,are you concerned the baby will get full of poop,and dust/bloom etc ??? If so,your not maintaing a proper loft for your birds...Clean loft,not a Sterile loft,is what you want to have.....Alamo
It is given (teaspoon)1 or 2 days a week per gallon....


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Alamo said:


> I clean/scrape/vacuum the YB section at least 2 times per day...When I start to wean the YB`s,I let some droppings dry up in my floor dressing(Oil Dry/automotive kind),NOT kitty litter,under the perches...The babies pick around in this,and have a better chance to get used to the germs associated within...Their immunity will build up real good,then after a few months,I start to clean out the floor dressing every day,to get the droppings out of the loft....The droppings give out vapors,which are not favorable to getting racing pigeons in form for racing...No matter how good your ventilation is,taking the FRESH droppings out of the loft is important....In this stage of the YB`s life,I do not give any medications...Only natural stimulants to help with keeping them healthy....Lemon juice,Apple Cider Vinegar,Onion,Garlic and Clorox....You can mix the Lemon/Slice Onion/ACV/Clove Garlic in with their water 2 times per week,or give one item per day seperatly...The Clorox is never mixed in with anything else EVER !!!I will end this post with these words....A loft full of (DRY)droppings on the floor ONLY,andf clean nest boxes and perches,will NOT harm the birds...But it will KILL YOU !!! The dust from a dry litter floor from droppings is just as bad for you as smoking...I have personally seem what it has done to a dear pigeon flyer friend...Another 3 pigeon guys (used to be pigeon guys),had to get rid of the birds...Doctor`s said the dust would clog their lungs,and could kill them in a few years...On the other side of keeping a loft clean,it makes it easier to maintain a even balance for the birds...A clean loft,NOT a STERILE loft is the way to go...My thought has always been,if I get a friend,that is NOT a pigeon guy,visiting my lofts,will I be ashamed to let him go inside to see the birds or not....If I have to make excuses why he can`t enter the loft,then the loft is not properly maintained...If you have a little grandchild,and the child wants to see grandpa`s pigeons,are you concerned the baby will get full of poop,and dust/bloom etc ??? If so,your not maintaing a proper loft for your birds...Clean loft,not a Sterile loft,is what you want to have.....Alamo
> It is given (teaspoon)1 or 2 days a week per gallon....


Very logical, I think which way you are keeping your birds if you cant show it your friends, you have a problem


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

From the views it is obvious that there are many factors involved in maintaining the cleanliness, some simply do that because they like it and there are other reasons like meeting social and legal compliance but foremost is the health of “BIRD & YOURS”

Either way you are keeping your loft, if you can’t enter the place, can’t show it to your friends, can’t take pictures of your birds and getting sick, the hobby is useless


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## bigislerollers (Jan 20, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I started putting diatomacious earth mixed in with their food.....I haven't had to worm anyone this year!


Aloha Waynette, I also use daitomacious earth mixed into the feed. I mainly do it to keep the "bugs" from infesting the feed as I have to buy by quantity and store it for a long time. I have been doing it for about 6 years now and it has worked great at keeping the stored feed bug free.
From what I have read about diatomacious earth it is also supposed to be a natural way to keep the intestinal worms from infesting the birds. WRONG!!! Just this year I had a very serious roundworm infestation that took some very valuable birds. I thought I was safe with the diatomacious earth, wire floors and not letting my birds "go to ground", but I was wrong. Please, Please, worm your birds at regular intervals. I don't want you or anyone else go through what I went through this year.
Sorry for hijacking this tread but I thought this needed to be mentioned.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't see how it can work for worming, as when the bird eats it, it is now wet. The DE only works when dry. Thank you for posting this information. Hope others will read it and take caution in not worming their birds,


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## doveman2 (Jul 22, 2012)

i agree with mifreebird i do the same.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Don't see how it can work for worming, as when the bird eats it, it is now wet. *The DE only works when dry.* Thank you for posting this information. Hope others will read it and take caution in not worming their birds,


I know, and I brought this up some time ago when some members mentioned using if for worming. I mix it in with my food whereas I store it in 55gal metals cans. I was normally worming 3-4 times a year when I would notice 1 or 2 birds getting 'sluggish'. Since using diatomacious earth I haven't seen anyone get sluggish, so I haven't wormed since last fall. Maybe just a coincident. 


bigislerollers said:


> Aloha Waynette, I also use daitomacious earth mixed into the feed. I mainly do it to keep the "bugs" from infesting the feed as I have to buy by quantity and store it for a long time. I have been doing it for about 6 years now and it has worked great at keeping the stored feed bug free.
> From what I have read about diatomacious earth it is also supposed to be a natural way to keep the intestinal worms from infesting the birds. WRONG!!! Just this year I had a very serious roundworm infestation that took some very valuable birds. I thought I was safe with the diatomacious earth, wire floors and not letting my birds "go to ground", but I was wrong. * Please, Please, worm your birds at regular intervals*. I don't want you or anyone else go through what I went through this year.
> Sorry for hijacking this tread but I thought this needed to be mentioned.


No Hijacking at all! Thanks for your input. As I said, I use to worm everyone 3-4 times a year. I plan on worming everyone this month again.
I had read years ago that "it is nearly impossible to clear ALL birds in a loft situation of roundworms, so a routine worming schedule is very important". And I also read that diatomacious earth only works when its dry, so I couldn't imagine how it could kill worms in the body ........I even asked my boss (a vet that also uses holistic treatments as well as regular treatments), and he confirmed also that it treats worms...
So, to be on the safe side, I will continue to worm regularly for my peace of mind! I'm sorry you lost some of your birds. I know roundworms can wreak havoc in birds.......I had it happen many years ago when I took in 11 fancy pigeons from the spca that were rescued from a neglect situation. That's when my worming problems started! It took a couple years to get it under control.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Wow, all the scraping and cleaning... you guys are fantastic! I feel so heartened that so many care so much for their pigeon's hygiene to scrape the loft so regularly! I know the feeling. It is such hard work!! Especially with a loft with _soooo_ many pigeons, the poop, feathers and dust multiplies!

I have only one little bird - and the mess she makes gives me a headache. I clean her cage - change fresh towels and wipe down once a week, and even that is a challenge! The amount of skin dust (those tiny flakes of skin when she preens), feathers, and all kinds of poops... such a nightmare to get rid of every week.

So I totally SALUTE all of you who regularly scrape and clean your lofts - which are much, much more massive and even harder work than my little cage!! Bravo all!


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Your funny Sassy, when you coming to visit me? I can't imagine only having one pigeon to clean up after. I would probably catch the poo before it hit the ground and then wait for the next one lol.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

thepigeonkey said:


> Your funny Sassy, when you coming to visit me? I can't imagine only having one pigeon to clean up after. *I would probably catch the poo before it hit the ground and then wait for the next one lol.*


A Pamper might help, it will be much easier than the catching thing


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

thepigeonkey said:


> Your funny Sassy, when you coming to visit me? I can't imagine only having one pigeon to clean up after. I would probably catch the poo before it hit the ground and then wait for the next one lol.


Luke, imagine me visiting you only to clean and scrape your loft, lol, that's tourist labour dude!

But yes, embarrassingly, when Krikky's free flying in the house, the catch-the-poo is exactly what I do (rhymes too).


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## kelliepulido (Mar 16, 2010)

I scrape roosts,nest boxes and floors everyday.I clean nest bowls with babies everyday and change out the wood chips in the bowl.I use the wood flakes from tsc in my big loft and turn it rake it everyday after scraping then it is changed out every 3wks I also use de in the wood shavings and dust nest boxes bowls roosts maybe 1x per month or 2.I change water everyday.I worm with ivermectin,use 5/1 if anybody has a sniffle or something or for new birds I bought.I use block poison for rodents.


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## likebirds (Oct 22, 2012)

Im like Spirit Wings. I do it when it looks like it needs it which is usually about twice a month but I only have 12 birds in the loft.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I have 12 YB`s that I am racing....My method of cleaning my lofts WILL NEVER CHANGE,whether I have 12 YB`s,or 32 YB`s....It`s their health & mine that is the reason I do what I do...Also,if you are going to race your birds,it is imperitive that you have a clean loft...Again,NOT a STERILE loft..But just a clean loft.....

Will give you a true & recent story,of a good friend of mine....Last year,he cleaned his loft pretty much as I do...He lost hardly any YB`s,and they were always healthy,and they did well racing....This year,so far,he has never trained his YB`s....He started with 25,he is now down to 10...Lost 15 off the loft and tripping...I have to say the man has a lung problem,and is not allowed to stay in the loft for any lenght of time...He`s on oxygen!!..
His lungs are bad from his lifetime of construction work,and not the birds....But in any case,his birds are paying the price,by getting lost etc....They are probally sick,from all the droppings,and the order omited by them...It`s to bad...*I feel more sorry for my friend*,but I also feel for the birds...They are victims as well !!.......Alamo


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with Alamo. A clean loft is important for both the birds and for the fancier. I scrape morning and night. Diseases are carried in the droppings, and leaving them around is asking for trouble. It doesn't take very long to do, especially when done once or twice daily. And the birds are healthier. I have seen pictures of babies on here in their nests, where it is so filthy that I can only imagine how those poor things must smell. And the fact that they are breathing that in all day is unhealthy. If you keep animals, that you should keep them as clean and healthy as you can. Why force them to live in unhealthy dirty conditions when it takes only a small bit of effort to clean?


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

Clean water, Food, nest is essential rather it's a hygiene rule!


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## likebirds (Oct 22, 2012)

I can see your points on cleaning your loft daily but there are two ways of looking at this. I also have lung issues and that is why I only clean twice a month. My view is if you are in the loft daily scaping and sweeping that you and the birds are breathing more of the fine feather and poop dust . Even if there isn't as much dropping there is still a lot of dust. Regardless how often you do it I highly recommend wearing a mask.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well if you spend a lot of time with the birds, you are in there anyway. So why not be in a cleaner environment. I clean and have the fan running, pulling everything out. The fresh air comes in the open windows. So most dust and all is pulled out. I have lung issues also, and it is worse for me if it isn't clean.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

My Dustbuster vacum gets all those little feathers,dust and skin,that you find in the corners of the loft....That`s where the pigeon lung disese comes from....Protect yourself with a mask,yes indeed,but vacum the dust also....It takes me ONE minute to vacum the 4 corners of the YB section....No big deal...I let the birds out to fly,and get the water jug out...I clean out the jug,and then after a few minutes,I enter the loft and vacum...Then I scrape up.....Afternoon,is just a repeat of the morning.....About 15 minutes morning and afternoon,to get the loft maintained for the birds,and ME.....I`m important to my HenBird at home....She wants me to be around for many more years....Hopefully,I can keep HER around many more years also.....Alamo


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## likebirds (Oct 22, 2012)

Good advice Alamo! I would also like to add that my lung problems weren't caused by my homing pigeons but by working many years in rubber and soapstone dust and them damn cigarettes that I thought I couldn't live without.


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