# Injured bleeding Rock Dove



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

My sister just brought in a dove she found hiding on our porch. The dove's side under the doves side under teh wing is ripped up. There aren't any bird vets or rehabs in the area. I don't know what to do. Can anyone help? I have a couple photos of the injury but ...I wasn't sure if I could post them. They are close ups of the wound. I don't want to offend anyone but I really need some help. 

We have it in a box with food and water we didn't want our pets to upset it. 

Help please.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Please hang on........someone will help you. It is all right to post the pictures. We've seen it all around here............
If you can tell us where you are, maybe with luck, one of our members is close by and can help out.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi there and thanks for bringing this bird in for help. Please remove the food and water from the box for now. If you can post the pictures, please do so.
Also, please let us know where you are located, we may have someone in the
area.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> My sister just brought in a dove she found hiding on our porch. The dove's side under the doves side under teh wing is ripped up. There aren't any bird vets or rehabs in the area. I don't know what to do. Can anyone help? I have a couple photos of the injury but ...I wasn't sure if I could post them. They are close ups of the wound. I don't want to offend anyone but I really need some help.
> 
> We have it in a box with food and water we didn't want our pets to upset it.
> 
> Help please.




Hi dreams, 


Yes, post the images, or post links to them.


Let us know your location, in case one of us may be close by.


Mourning Doves are typically VERY sensitive and somewhat fragile and over-reactive in their ways...even when injured.

This one possibly was injured by a Cat or Dog, and would need to be put on to some specific Antibiotics as soon as possible, as well as posssibly to have these wounds evaluated, cleaned and sutured...


I will check back to your thread in a little while.

I hope you live close to me, I'd be glad to help.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

I'm in Rogers City Michigan.
View attachment 6888


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

From our Resource section which you may need the link to when the dust 
settles:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Is this link on basic steps for saving the life of a dove/pigeon:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

I want you to have this on hand to refer to, though folks will be walking you
through this for the time being.

Wounds are best washed (very gently patted down) w/sterile saline
solution of you have some on hand. Which comes to the topic of what
medicines do you have on hand in your medicine chest?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm assuming that you have taken a look at this link which is why you stated 
that you have no rehabbers in your area? If not, have a look and see if there
is anyone close by:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8817

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams...


Eeeeeeesh...


More images would be good, and ones which are easier to see the relation of Wing to Body, also...


Ohhhh-boy...from what I can see, this is a definitely serious injury/wound.


Forget about food for today...they can coast without any...and as fp advises, yes, do remove the water for now also.


Advise us as to any poops the Dove is making...how many, what they look like...this is important also.


I can not tell if there is substantial skin missing, or instead, a lacerated area.


I will wait for more images.


See if you can make the image larger in format ( not dpi, just format) so it is not postage stamp size.



Back soon...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are you anywhere near Bay City, MI?

fp


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Anti Scabies Cream

and a 

Septic Stick

We had a minor emergancy at a week or so ago and ended up clearing out the medical kit. We have a week before we have any money in the bank at all. 

This is why we need a freaking bird vet! (Sorry not mad at you guys just horribly frustrated. Last week we my sister brought home a Seagull with a minor head injury. He was fine after about an hour or so but when we called the vet and the cops for help they said if anyone came out they would destroy it. Anything but Eagles or Hawks are basically worthless in this area.

We did clean the wound lightly at the time it was bleeding really badly. Not so much now, mainly only when it freaks out and moves to fast. Hence the box.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, 


You can make a decent 'sterile' solution for gently washing the injury...

Boil a Quart or so of 'cold' Tap Water, having let it run for a few minutes first.

Remove from the Stove in the Saucepan, and let it cool a little.

Add say three Tablespoons of common Table Salt ( or non Iodine salt if you have any) and stirr...cover, and let cool till room temperature.

This then is a tolerably sterile solution which can be usdef ro washing an injury.

Boils a small Glass also, in the Water to begin with, and use it to dip into the solution to then gently pour on to the wound, keeping your fingers more or less on the same part of the galss, and not dipping that part when you get more.

Just boil the Glass again when you need to use it again, or put it into some cool water which has maybe 10 percent common household 'Bleach' in it and wash it well after it has sat for say fifteen minutes in that...again, more or less keeping your fingers in the same part of the glass and not dipping that part.


Do you have any Neosporin? or can you get to a store and buy a fresh tube of it?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

I don't know how to make the format bigger. If anyone can help with that I would be grateful. As for Bay City is over 150 miles away so I doubt I could get anyone to come up here. We can't go there as we don't have a working car.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, 


One thing you could do...to buy time...

Is to ( as you maybe have already done anyway) gently wash t he wound with a sterile solution which is merely body temperature or sllightly cool...

Then, if you have a fresh tube of Neosporin, saturate some sterils Gause with the Neosporin, some folded layers of gause...cover the Wound, close the Wing back over it...and gently tape the Wing closed with some scotch tape.


Are the Dove's Legs alright?


You may have to prop him up in some soft clothes so he does not fall over.


Anyway, this would buy some time in it's way, pending someone near you who could take over.


Best wishes!


Thanks for hslping this little Dove!


I know it can be very frustrating...!

And I know help can be VERY hard to come by even for 'easy' ones...


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> I don't know how to make the format bigger. If anyone can help with that I would be grateful. As for Bay City is over 150 miles away so I doubt I could get anyone to come up here. We can't go there as we don't have a working car.


email the pictures to me and I'll get them posted. 

[email protected]


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

It's had maybe three droppings in the last hour and a half. All Mostly white. When it first came in it passed three dark green within 20 minutes. My sister is out trying to get some neosporin from my neighbors. (Mom mom and grams are disabled, my siste and I take care of them full time so we only have income once a month. No spare money at all at the moment.)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, 


Really, Doves usually have very VERY good immune systems, and my proceedure for the sterile solution is me trying to advise one does it right.


That part is not hard to do, and overall, the real worry for this one is the bacteria 'in' his system already, from Teeth or Claws, and the topical aspect is way secondary really...other than there can be germs on the injury FROM Teeth and Claws...so...a decent sterile washing would be advised and good to do of course.


So, just do what you can for that, and see about the Neosporin and Gause part...


Hopefull we have a member, or someone someone knows, who can meet with you and take the little Dove and get hoppin' with the antibiotics and so on for the Bird's recovery.


Phil
Las V


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Is this a Mourning Dove?

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> It's had maybe three droppings in the last hour and a half. All Mostly white. When it first came in it passed three dark green within 20 minutes. My sister is out trying to get some neosporin from my neighbors. (Mom mom and grams are disabled, my siste and I take care of them full time so we only have income once a month. No spare money at all at the moment.)




Sounds good...


White is 'pee', dark is 'poo' or at least whatever came out their intestines...and in some cases that can be semi-digested blood, from internal injurys...but yours would not seem to have the kind of innury which I would expect to occasion blood in their intestines...so, likely just regular poo, if darkish for whatever reason.

If you can take some of the 'poo' and rub it with a fingertip on a sheet of white paper, and see if it has any 'red' in it, or if it is jelly-like, or fiberous and fine and merely brown-green kind of 'dark'...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

"Mourning Dove" then...


Thought so...( somehow...) 


Phil
L v


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

I believe so . For some reason I wrote Rock Dove instead. 

I tried to send the pics but my email or comp is being weird. So here is the best I could do.
View attachment 6889


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I just got off the phone w/Naturegirl who lives in Michigan and she is going
to check w/some of her contacts to see if they know of anyone locally that would help. 

Are there any veterinary places that are 24 hour emergency in the area that
also treat birds?? Any of them at all that are open now that you could call
and ask if they would be willing to suture the bird and give antibiotics as it
is a Mourning Dove. You could tell them that you are willing to continue
the supportive care.

fp

PS- Never seen anyone post a link to an attachment...that's great.


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

None of the vets aroudn here do birds. My mom raises cockatiels and we've been looking for a new one every since we got up here. If your person can help we would be very grateful and I would contribute whatever I could at on Wensday when we get paid.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Is the short list of meds that you posted earlier seriously the only items that 
you have??

Do you know anyone that may have some meds or antibacterial ointments that
would be willing to loan or lay some on you locally in your area??

fp


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Yes I was serious Unless you count pills those are all we have. We don't know anyone in this area. We only moved here recently. My sister went to a neighbor earlier to ask and they just said no. 

As IO said last week we had an emergancy that wiped out the med kit we had on hand. This was a crappy month for us.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> Yes I was serious Unless you count pills those are all we have. We don't know anyone in this area. We only moved here recently. My sister went to a neighbor earlier to ask and they just said no.
> 
> As IO said last week we had an emergancy that wiped out the med kit we had on hand. This was a crappy month for us.


Yes, I want you to count pills....what are the pills??

fp


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Asprin 

Diclofenac - Anti Inflatory

Prilosec - Anti-Acid

Amitriptyline - Migrains, sleep, anti depressant

Gabapentin - For nerve damage

Tramadol (Ultram) - Pain Med


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

*About Poo*

No blood, no Red, seems just like my cockatiel poo but a little darker green


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

ok I am Cindy in Bay City and I have looked all over in my directory and also called another rehabber in the area and neither one of us know of any rehabbers up that far north or any people to call so what she told me to do is try a steri strip pulling the skin together in that area of the wing and holding it till you can find a local vet in your area to take the dove to to either sew up the skin, there has to be a vet somewhere in your area that can help you out, that is really all I can offer at this time as I am out of ideas. Let me know what happens please e-mail me or private message. 

Good Luck
Cindy


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Oh and to Phil, He's standing up okay not falling, he walks okay. Not falling over or anything.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, all...


This looks like intact Skin to me, with blood oosing and some slight lacerations which may benifit from Suturing, or may be small enough to be left be...hard to tell.


Dreams, can tell whether there are any actual 'holes' in the de-feathered Skin there? and if so, how many roughly, and how big?



Medicaitons for something like this would usually be 'Clavamox' or 'Cipro/Batryl' as second choices...or Oxytetricycline or similar as third choices. Far as I know anyway...


Hard to say if this is a predator inflicted wound or not...which would be most of the issue, since Teeth and Claws carry the germs we worry about most.


Hawks Beaks and claws also can have them...and this might be a Hawk inflicted injury...


If nothing better seems in the offering, one of us could next day air some Clavamox I s'pose...



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> No blood, no Red, seems just like my cockatiel poo but a little darker green




Okeydoke...


Thanks for checking that...


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You see those funny little stick-like looking things in the middle of the mess... are those pin feathers?

Pidgey


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Okay Phil, We found a little packet of Neo. Some butterfly bandaids, some guaze still in the package, and that tape that sticks to itself. Please explain how to do this cause I've never done this before. 

And unless we can find someone tomorrow to take him we're kind of stuck with him ourselves. Becuase when we got that seagull and called around no one wanted anything to do with birds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> Oh and to Phil, He's standing up okay not falling, he walks okay. Not falling over or anything.



Excellent...


For being SUCH delicate and frail little things, Mourning Doves are mighty darned tough, too...


Waiting on the 'are there any 'holes' report...



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You see, some of that looks like plucked skin. Wet, but possibly still whole for the most part.

Pidgey


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

*Pidgey*

Yes. Pin feathers.


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> You see, some of that looks like plucked skin. Wet, but possibly still whole for the most part.
> 
> Pidgey


 That would be a good thing right?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, then, it's a bit deceiving. Their skin is pretty translucent so the fun's going to be trying to find the actual hole(s). See if you can rinse that off with a saline as mentioned above.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, 


I need to know if you can find any long rips or holes in the skin there...

To me, in the image, what I am seeing is 'skin' with the Feathers pulled out...and some blood in the creases and folds and low areas.


When you did or do the Sterils Saline washing, see if you can tell if there are any actual 'holes' or long tears in the Skin itself...and if so, describe them for us...


Also, look him over elsewhere, see if you can fins any other injury, bited, holes, tears, punctures, blood...and let us know some describes on them if you do find any...



Then, we can see about the next things to do..!


Fingers crossed...!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> That would be a good thing right?


For you in your current situation right now? Oh, yeah. And for the bird, too. What's it look like under the other wing--is there any bareness or is it all feathered?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

OK, thanks for your forthright disclosure even though they aren't quite fitting 
the bill. The problem is that the wound needs to stay clean and moist and
needs some professional attention. If we can't find anyone through Naturegirl, then I think that you might need to call around and talk to the vets locally about helping. There are a couple of other links that may have someone near you who would be willing to help or that might know of somewhere you could bring the bird:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactA.htm#mi

http://www.aav.org/activemembers.html#m

Sometimes on a wild or feral bird, avian vets will treat the bird and release
for no charge if you sign the bird over to them for care.

Please let us know if there is anyone close enough to you for you to bring the
bird to if they would take the bird in for care. 

Also, here is a link to a site that has alot of information on different kinds of
wounds. Please scroll down to the information posted for cat and dog bite
wounds:

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html#

The wound may not be from either a cat or dog, but some other predator,
but the need to keep the flesh moist and clean and treat systemically for 
bacteria are the same.

fp


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

There was a small bare patch on his back, none under the other wing though.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He might have been the victim of a... who knows? Sometimes another bird will pluck the fool out of them for getting in their territory. It's a brutal world. There are, of course, other things that could have done it. Can you determine where there might be actual holes or rents in the skin?

Pidgey


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Okay the main problem is finding one close enough for THEM to come to US because as I stated I have no working car. And I don't know anyone well enough for them to take me any farther than the nearest grocery store. 

I'll call around but not one of those towns are with in 50 miles of here. I don't know if any of them will be willing to drive all this way to take an injured dove knowing we couldn't even give them gas money for nearly a week. 

I'm so frustrated. I can't stand the idea of this poor little bird dying because I was unable to help.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'll pm you the information of a fancier that was just pm-ed to me. Perhaps they may of someone closer to you that could help at least w/meds. Maybe
they would be willing to drive to you, you can always try for that, but at least
someone locally w/some meds and possibly a vet that would be willing to help
for n/c.

fp


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

No puncture wounds that we could find. He's also disturbingly tame.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's amazing what kind of damage they can inflict on each other in a loft situation when a youngster goes exploring accidently out of its nest box. They can get pretty scarfed up. A lot of times, it really looks horrible and yet they heal. My avian vet has always said that you don't have to worry with skin infections in pigeons (don't know about doves but they're closely related) near as much as you have to with other animals. Hopefully, this was done by one of his own kind and, therefore, won't have the likelihood of an infection that it might get from a cat bite, for instance.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> No puncture wounds that we could find. He's also disturbingly tame.


That may well be because the bird is not feeling well. Try the fanciers # I just
pm-ed and we can see about anti-biotics or someone close by.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you get a picture of the entire bird with something in the picture for a size reference and another of the bare patch on the back?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Let's make the call first.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> You see, some of that looks like plucked skin. Wet, but possibly still whole for the most part.
> 
> Pidgey




Yes...thats what I was thinking...hopeing...


Still waiting for the report on that...


Phil
l v


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

I called the Fancier but no one is home. I left a message for him. I'm going offline for a few hours to give them a chance to call me back. I'll be back in a while to let you all know what's going on okay?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not a problem.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's understandable. If you need further help, or there are new developments, please let us know. 

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> No puncture wounds that we could find. He's also disturbingly tame.




Hi dreams, 



Ahhhh...most excellent then...outstanding...!


They will seem 'tame' ( for a little while anyway) when they are stunned from some trauma-thing...and, this will change, believe me..!


I will scan to see what else ie being said, then see if I can add anything...

Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, while we're all waiting, go look back at that picture really hard--looks like there might be a hole in the dead center and a little low. Around it you can see plucked feathers follicles (goose pimples) but there looks to me like a canyon. And danged if it doesn't look like it's almost in the same place as that one Sabina had. I wonder if this guy split his side, the blood started getting into the feathers and sticking them together (with wings folded) for which it got really irritated and he ended up plucking a few himself. Just a thought. Probably need to go review that thread of Aias and Sabina's.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The more reason for tracking down some antibiotics and other local resources for dreams of Ice and the rescue if at all possible.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Compare this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=199294

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's after midnight in Michigan. If it were me, I'd put the food and water back in although I'd tend to just put in the smaller seeds for a dove (stuff smaller than dried peas). I don't know whether wild doves tend to go to sleep at their normal time and that may have something to do with the seeming calmness.

Anyway, if you're just plain stuck then clean the area tenderly and keep it dry. You might see if you've got some medical tape to pull that one wound closed if it's actually there. People have super-glued wounds like that together but the glue can only go on the dry outer surface of the skin, not in the wet insides. You have to pucker the skin together in a case like that and make the edges kinda' go inside. I'd still tape it up over that.

If that isn't an option, then you might just put a bandaid over that spot as best as possible to keep blood from getting everywhere and sticking it all together.

Pidgey

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, pidgey, all...


Being contary maybe, I have never had other than excellent results slathering lots of 'Neosporin' on wounds, holes even, and just re-doing that once-a-day, and they always healed up splendidly.

Keeps everything soft and 'wet' in it's way...

Sometimes I have used a saturated Gause compress, but usually not.

Long after I had been having entirely excellent success with doing it that way, I noticed many people saying 'keep it dry' and so on...

I never kept one 'dry' ever, and they always healed very very well, usually with no detectable scars...feathers grew back in perfectly, and so on...or never any scars I could see...holes and all, when there were any..everything healed as nice as anyone could wish for.


Oye, have not eaten yet today and getting waves of hungry now...time for some chow...

Fed all the Beaks of course, and never did get around to me...


Lol...


Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Michigan Wildlife Rehabilitators ..*

http://www.michigandnr.com/dlr/ quite a few of them in area code 989 but that area code covers a lot of territory.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, the reason that I posted the link from the resource section to the steps for saving the life of a pigeon and dove is so that the bird could be warmed up and the rehydrating solution could be given before food was given to the bird. Hopefully that can still happen. A wild bird seed mix would be fine for now.

I'd probably go with a film of Neosporin over what appears to be a wounded
area and do my best to use those butterfly bandages to hold the open area
together.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sometimes local rehabbers will go and pick up, you might get lucky. Also, they
will sometimes take in an animal or bird that they don't normally work with as they know the other local rehabbers and will relay the bird or animal where it
needs to go. Anyway, they frequently have a hard time saying no to an animal or bird in need so a little pleading might go a long way. Just hoping for the best
for this rescue. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, the reason that I posted the link from the resource section to the steps for saving the life of a pigeon and dove is so that the bird could be warmed up and the rehydrating solution could be given before food was given to the bird. Hopefully that can still happen. A wild bird seed mix would be fine for now.
> 
> I'd probably go with a film of Neosporin over what appears to be a wounded
> area and do my best to use those butterfly bandages to hold the open area
> ...


Hi fp, dreams, all...


Quite so on the hehydrating solution...


Maybe you or others would be kind enough to walk 'dreams' through making it?

I have been in danger of sounding like a Broken-Record with all my recent mentions of it..!


Likely, this Dove, if handled gently, would permit it's Beak to be guided into the Rehydrating Solution, and will Drink...but if not, a low wide small bowl of it could be left in his Cage or Box, and none the less, he should be shown that it is "there" by a few Beak guided times.

Small whole Seeds, which almost any Grocery store should have some of in the Pet-food isle, as are for Finches or Parakeets and so on, would be my choice also.

If he is in a Cage, drape the cage in light sheer thin cloths so he does not feel like anyone can see him...he will do best if he feels 'hidden' from others for the time being...

Keep him on a 'White' Towell of some kind...and this will make it easier to see and evaluate the poops, as well as being nice and tidy.



Phil
l v


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

I'm sorry I took so long to respond. Today has been a very bad day. Our Lovebird Sami, who we adopted 7 years ago from a cockatiel breeder, died today. We couldn't get through the Fancier but our cockatiel breeder gave us a number as well. We called that contact only to be told exactly what you've been telling us. 

When asked if anyone could come and get the bird she recommended a taxidermist who might also be a rehab person the only problem is that she doesn't know her name, her address, her phone number, or even if she is still in the area because it's been so long since she heard about her. 

The dove is drinking fine, we had parakeet food on hand, she seems to like the light colored seeds best. She isn't thrashing or falling over. She isn't acting like she's in to much pain. She's tried to escape her box quietly by sneaking a few times today. Other than that she seems okay ... at least as okay as a tramatized wild animal can be.

We used the cleaning solution and there seems to be one small puncture like wound just under the wing joint and a small tear in the skin. Not a big one though. 

I want to thank all of you for your support and help.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, sorry to hear about your lovebird! At least he had the time that he had with you.

A rehabbing taxidermist sounds almost like a conflict of interest, doesn't it? Or maybe a low success rate...

So. She's a sneak, huh? I don't think we can fix that. Does the tear look like that one on that other bird (Simon/e) that appeared somewhat mysteriously?

Pidgey


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Actually yes but a lot bigger.

Oh and as to her/his size she's about the size (Counting feather fluff) as a small grapefruit) No tail.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Are the tail feathers short or gone altogether?

Pidgey


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Gone completely


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's a funny thing about doves--they can shed some feathers in order to get away from a predator. We can probably assign this to a hawk or cat under those circumstances. If she does fine for the next few days then you'll be out of the woods. Usually, it's best to give a preventative medication like Clavamox (Amoxicillin plus Clavulanic Acid) or even just Amoxicillin but that's not really an option here, huh?

Here's another hurt dove thread from somewhere a bit north and west of you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16607

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Dreams of Ice, 

Terry Whatley came on after you left last night and had this link for
rehabbers in Michigan;

http://www.michigandnr.com/dlr/

Were you able to have a look at this link and try any of the numbers there
for your area code?

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Cheybogan is only like 45 miles away and we called the mammal.bird one on there but no anwers (probably as it is sunday) but we left a message and said we would stay offline tomorrow so they could call. If they can't help than we'll call the other two strictly mammal ones and see if they know anyone.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are the other two 45 minutes away as well?

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Not quite but they are in the same county.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you haven't tried those numbers yet you may want to leave a message
w/them as well even though mammals. You just don't know who'll be up
for what in terms of helping. They all seem to take in and shuttle around 
to one another around here and they also have other folks working under
their "umbrella's" many times.

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

No answers, but as with the other left messages. We will be sure to keep you all up to date, you've been very helpful. 

The area really needs an avian vet. There are a lot of 'accidents' with birds up here. And no one seems to care.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sounds like your area really needs one, when you do get a hold of someone,
you might inquire about that while you have a chance to speak w/someone
familiar with the area. 

You may still get lucky, hopefully the rehabbers in your area do some shuttling
as well. Were you able to apply some Neosporin and butterfly the area?

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just be sure if they get back with you to make sure that they're not going to turn around and put the bird down. There's probably not much wrong with the little guy that some time won't fix. Keeping the wound closed will make it happen faster, of course.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

They usually have a 'releasable' criteria, so if releasable or chances are weighing
in that they will be, then there is no euthanasia. It never hurts to ask about
that as well.

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I wonder if doves tend to try to get back to "home" like pigeons do? If that were the case, then it'd be best if he were released at Dreams' home.

Pidgey


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

I'll be sure to ask about that, as well as vets. If I had a car that worked I woudl drive the little thing anywhere that would help but at this point....

We were able to use put the sporin on as well as some guaze but she freaked out badly when we tried to apply the bandage. It took two people just to hold her still enough that we could stop worrying about her splitting it worse. We watched her for hours and she refused to move her wing after Feral (My sister) but the guaze and gel on her. We managed to get it taped down lightly with some first aid tape but that's about all.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Most of them ask where you found the bird or whatever at so that they can
be returned. Though sometimes if it's not a "good neighborhood" they will
opt to relocate it. I doubt finding it's way back home would be a problem.
Many species other than pigeons home and for pretty long distances as well.

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Well we think she might be part of the little flock we've been feeding since we got here. Because she was hiding on our porch. Also the whoel flock has refused to go farther than the tree in the back yard since yesterday.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

They are very sweet birds but can be high strung for sure and not quite as
comfortable around people as the feral pigeons.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> ..... Also the whoel flock has refused to go farther than the tree in the back yard since yesterday.


What do you mean? Further away or further into the yard and closer to the
house?

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've always heard funny things about doves, but don't know.

Dreams, doves are pretty excitable. We've got one member who always pads the top of the box or cage they're in because they'll launch off in a start and smack their heads that way with regularity.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, if pigeons are the cadillacs of the skies, doves are the BMW's of the sky...they are fast.

I take it your sister likes the ferals??

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Farther away from the yard. They usually spend some time in the neighbors yards. 

And I don't know this is the third Mourning that we've ended up housing, the first only had a bump on the head and was okay in afew hours, the second had a wing problem and stayed a few days until she could fly again. So far none have seemed all that skittish. Don't know why. Sneaky as heck, always trying to escape box's and cages, but otherwise no more freaked out than the untamed cockatiels we have. 

Also the two that wentinto the cage with the other birds were fine with the other birds. Shared food, and branchs. 

This one is to damaged to risk letting in with the teils but also doesn't seem to flighty. Again might be shock but I don't know.


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

My sister is the "It followed me home" type. She loves all animals. Her screen name is TheFeralDream. Less because of her affinity toward feral animals (which lets face it she definately has, almost all her pets have started that way) and more because she herself tends to be a bit feral when it comes to people.


----------



## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Is there like alot of skin missing? It looks like there is, if so then I am wondering how you could sew something that isn't there. I had a Mourning Dove come in a few years ago that was missing it's entire front skin of his chest, I mean nothing was left and you could see everything from the neck to the pelvic bone. 

Cindy


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> .......
> 
> Also the two that wentinto the cage with the other birds were fine with the other birds. Shared food, and branchs.
> 
> This one is to damaged to risk letting in with the teils but also doesn't seem to flighty. Again might be shock but I don't know.


This is a giant no-no even among the same species. You have no way of knowing if the bird has something because part of their defense mechanism
is to hide illness so they won't be preyed upon. It's rule number one in rescue
to keep new rescues separate from other birds so that nothing unknown is
passed to them.

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cindy, how did THAT turn out?

This one has a lot of feathers missing but there's only a tear in the actual skin. If you look real close in the picture, you'll see the little goose pimples where the feathers used to be as well as some pin feathers that are regrowing.

Pidgey


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> This is a giant no-no even among the same species. You have no way of knowing if the bird has something because part of their defense mechanism
> is to hide illness so they won't be preyed upon. It's rule number one in rescue
> to keep new rescues separate from other birds so that nothing unknown is
> passed to them.
> ...


I'll remember that next time. Because there is always a next time.


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

View attachment 6900
View attachment 6899


Newer pics of the wound


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It's in a tough spot to heal like having a gash @ the base of the thumb but much worse. Looks like you're doing a good job of keeping it clean.

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Thanks. We're doing what we can. And thank you for all the help we would have still be hysterical and holding her in paper towels if it weren't for you guys.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The first picture really looked a lot worse. Cleaning helps a lot. I don't actually see anything that I recognize as a real gash, for that matter.

Pidgey


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

There is something like a little hole or shallow puncture up where it is difficult to get the camera. Not nearly as big as we thought it was. It was where we put the most of the neosporin. A thin layer on the bare skin to keep the gauze from sticking as well.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Looks much better than yesterday. Good work.


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Thanks  I'm still worried about the little dear but I have high hopes on her/him making it. And with the Rehabs messaged and hopefully calling back tomorrow... We have our fingers crossed.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> I wonder if doves tend to try to get back to "home" like pigeons do? If that were the case, then it'd be best if he were released at Dreams' home.
> 
> Pidgey


Doves do not have the homing instinct.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Since Tail Feathers are missing ( how did we forgat to ask about that earlier?) this does couns like a Cat predation...



Anyone closer than I am have any 'Clavamox' they can Next Day Air to Dreams Monday morning?

If this Dove did get the associated germs, it will only have a few days left if no meds are started...and Tuesday is going to be day 'three' already, of it's post injury count-down time...


Ideas?



Phil
l v


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

If someone could do that we would all be very grateful. I don't want the poor thing to die because of the damned neighborhood cats and lack of med care.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> Thanks  I'm still worried about the little dear but I have high hopes on her/him making it. And with the Rehabs messaged and hopefully calling back tomorrow... We have our fingers crossed.




Hi dreams, 



I'd say the prognosis ie actually very good.

I have had many injured and Cat caught or torn up Doves...and that is my feeling and evaluation for yours - I think he is going to do just fine.


The only thing which concerns me, is that if he had been mauled by a Cat, then he m-i-g-h-t have gotten some systemic, lethal Bacteria in his system.


Some do, some don't...and you can't tell by looking, at least not at this phase.


Trouble is, there is no way to tell untill the Bird really starts to look 'sick' and by then one has perhaps a day left till they die from the systemic infeciton. They will 'look' fine for a few days, then sink fast.


So, if no one close can do so, I would be glad to send you some 'Clavamox' tomorrow morning, so it gets there on Tuesday.


I will have to figure out the dosage to elect a right number of pills, and we can go over how to use them in some subsequent posts.


This way, you and the Dove are covered, in case he did get infected...and better to treat with the meds before it is almost too late, then to wait and see and have delays and so on then.

I will recon your Dove weighs about 125 grams...

My 'larger' one weighs about that...but maybe the mourning doves out here are smaller...anyone know?




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, our doves have weighed from about 90 to 125 grams, depending on their age. I would guesstimate about 120 average weight.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, the meds have to get put in the mail by noon to get there tomorrow  .
Think someone mentioned this was a jouvenile so perhaps go a tad lower
than Maggie's upper range of weight when figuring? Do you have scales?

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Charis said:


> Doves do not have the homing instinct.


Charis, I don't know about homiing instinct, but are you saying that doves have less than average in terms of figuring which way home is? Or desiring to go there? And does this have to do w/returning to man made aviaries or returning to their 'home' in the wild?

I was thinking of the way rodents and other animals always seem to be able
to find 'home'. There are some incredible stories of cats (which really surprised me) and dogs as well who were able to find their way home over some pretty big territory. Then there are Cynthia's stories of the rodents that have found their way home as well.

Perhaps no desire to return to a man made structure but is this also true
just of their home in the wild?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I remember once reading something referring to doves as being able to get seriously lost in their own backyard. I had always thought that applied to domestic doves that escape their aviaries. What I was more getting was the idea that a wild dove may require the familiarity of its home surroundings in order to know where food and water may be found and that having to survive by foraging in a strange place might be a losing proposition. Being that a pigeon is by nature a flock bird and may, in a pinch, join in a local flock for temporary needs, it has that capacity that I've never heard any discussion about with respect to doves. So, as a matter of discussion, does a wild dove naturally have the survival skills to either make it in an unfamiliar environment starting from scratch, or will it attempt to home (with no knowledge of how far from home it is) and possibly eventually run out of gas and die if that distance is too far for the reserves the bird naturally has? I'm merely asking the question and have no knowledge one way or the other. I'm hoping that someone knows of some reference or study that pertains to the question. My guess would be that in the absence of any serious answer that the default would be to release the bird where it came from which has already been discussed.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I think rehabbers tend to have a sensitivity, or at least hopefully they 
would, towards the animals that they nurse back to health. Hopefully they 
wouldn't want to nurse one back to health and then just toss it anywhere regardless of it's ability to survive.

Here is a link that shows the Mourning Dove specifically to have 
homing instinct:

http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-mourningdoves.html

"Doves have a strong homing instinct and will generally return to the same areas they were hatched year after year (Bolckstein 1968a). Many doves are non-migrating and remain all year round within their nest territory (Tomlinson, Dolton, Reeves 1988, and others). Doves are often seen at feeders as lifelong bonded pairs. Mourning doves have the longest breeding season of all North American birds and active nests have been found in every month of the year in the United States (Peters 1961)." 

They are apparently the closest known relative of the Passenger Pigeon
alive today.

fp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, I think rehabbers tend to have a sensitivity, or at least hopefully they
> would, towards the animals that they nurse back to health. Hopefully they
> wouldn't want to nurse one back to health and then just toss it anywhere regardless of it's ability to survive.
> 
> ...


MY comment has come from personal experience and conversation with two Avian Veterinarians that I know very well. The comment was made in regards to Mourning Doves that had escaped or been released from aviaries and then were unable to find their way home. 
In the last 4 years nearly a dozen have come my way. All had been found on a porch, yard, park or shopping center and all in the same area of the city apparently unable to find their way home. None of them were sick but most dehydrated and thin. 
Maybe Portland Doves just don't have it.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, this is interesting. While we have always tried to release adult pigeons back where they came from, even if we think it undesirable, doves are a different matter. The majority of doves we have received were undocumented as to where they came from so they were released either in our yard or at our rehabber's. I simply assumed they did not "home".

Now, I'm wondering if this last little guy we have should be taken back where he came from because that location was documented. He is almost ready to go but if my rehabber friend has other doves in one of her aviaries, we usually try to put ours in with hers for flight time and getting wild. She has always released hers in her gorgeous back yard that is a delight to any sensible critter.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't know why there is conflicting information on the topic of their ability
to fiind their home. Maybe it is more emotional for them then we realize.

I do think that rehabbers here do make an effort to return to the location
picked up at, maybe that covers a multitude of sins...

fp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What I think is amazing is that we can all just go on so and even without, Dreams of Ice.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Charis said:


> What I think is amazing is that we can all just go on so and even without, Dreams of Ice.



Uh, I'm lost on this one.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Doesn't take much sometimes, lol. I did find it fascinating that Mourning
Doves are the closest relative living to the Passenger Pigeons.

fp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Maggie,
Dreams of Ice has been off line since some time last evening and I think it's funny, amusing that given a topic we just discuss and discuss. Not a bad thing.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Doesn't take much sometimes, lol. I did find it fascinating that Mourning
> Doves are the closest relative living to the Passenger Pigeons.
> 
> fp


That is fascinating. That was the author's opinion, right! LOL


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Dreams has informed us that there will be definite blackout periods to free up the phone lines in case a rehabber calls. This particular drama has serious resource limitations by virtue of location, available funds and circumstances. As such, it's one of those cases where you're stuck with everyone wishing this or that is possible but having ultimately to proceed without being able to do much for the actual bird except advise on what is possible. It's always been pretty rough emotionally on us when we get one that goes to a vet or rehabber and then gets "put down" for relatively little justifiable reason other than plain convenience, especially when we invest significant time, resources and worry to the cause. We don't typically all get together to determine site policy from these cases because it just doesn't work that way. So, we sometimes cuss and discuss, with or without the thread owner's input or feedback and try to guide the outcome without coming out and saying, "Thou shalt... !"

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Charis said:


> That is fascinating. That was the author's opinion, right! LOL


Think it was based on some science, though. JGregg would be a good person 
to ask.

fp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

OK. I was teasing with my comment about going on without Ice. ONLY TEASING.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Dreams of Ice and her sis--theferaldream??--seem pretty in tune w/helping
wild/feral ones over time, so I think they will ask the right questions. Naturegirl
was saying that the Mourning Dove that she had did need to be Euthanized due
to the type of injury that the bird sustained. Hopefully, if need be, Dreams of
Ice could email a picture or two of the wound to the rehabber. If the bird just
needs times to heal, Phil is covering that base by shipping Augmentin/Clavamox
to Dreams of Ice.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Charis said:


> OK. I was teasing with my comment about going on without Ice. ONLY TEASING.


Oh....but we can!!!

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, all...


Dreams is in a small Town and so there is no 'Next Day Air' from here...so, meds will arrive Wednesday morning sometime via Second Day Air.


Between now and then, we all can review the dosage and regimen to make sure all is clear on that.


I sent Eight 62.5 mg Tablets of 'Clamavox'...that to my reconning would be plenty for the Dove's regimen.


Now too, some of me is thinking, that if the Dove still seems 'fine' come Wednesday morning, he probably has already dealt with whatever Bacteria he may have gotten, and will not need the meds afterall, but please contribute your thoughts on this.


Anyway, till next,


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah. I tried to find some that I could get locally (Rogers City) and the only feed store that usually had some Amoxicillin was Sunrise Garden something-or-other. They'd just sold their last bottle of the Amoxicillin, dang it! All of the other drugs they had were injectibles, Penicillin and various Tetracyclines. Otherwise, there's a Rite-Aid in the town but you'd need a close relationship with the pharmacist to cabbage onto a pill or two.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Yeah. I tried to find some that I could get locally (Rogers City) and the only feed store that usually had some Amoxicillin was Sunrise Garden something-or-other. They'd just sold their last bottle of the Amoxicillin, dang it! All of the other drugs they had were injectibles, Penicillin and various Tetracyclines. Otherwise, there's a Rite-Aid in the town but you'd need a close relationship with the pharmacist to cabbage onto a pill or two.
> 
> Pidgey


I've posted this here a few times now along w/links, but Emergency Rooms in the US are reverting back to older antibiotics for new usages. They are currently using Doxyclycline as a stand alone treatment for animal/cat bites/attacks. If the various Tetracyclines that you are referring to include
Doxycycline, you may want to snag it for Dreams of Ice.

In the UK they are using Doxy + Metronidazole for animal bites.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, if Pidgey can't get Doxycycline as previously mentioned, it may be a good
idea to use the Clavamox anyway if there's going to be a home nursing situation
to guard against possible infection in the puncture area. Just a different concern, but still addressed w/antibiotics.

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They had some weird ones but not Doxycycline. There was an Oxytetracycline called "Liquamycin" (LA-200) , a Terramycin (which is also an Oxytetracycline) and a Penicillin of some type. All injectible.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> They had some weird ones but not Doxycycline. There was an Oxytetracycline called "Liquamycin" (LA-200) , a Terramycin (which is also an Oxytetracycline) and a Penicillin of some type. All injectible.
> 
> Pidgey


Penicillin injectible.....can't that get delivered down the throat the way that
Ivomec injectible does?

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Yeah. I tried to find some that I could get locally (Rogers City) and the only feed store that usually had some Amoxicillin was Sunrise Garden something-or-other. They'd just sold their last bottle of the Amoxicillin, dang it! All of the other drugs they had were injectibles, Penicillin and various Tetracyclines. Otherwise, there's a Rite-Aid in the town but you'd need a close relationship with the pharmacist to cabbage onto a pill or two.
> 
> Pidgey


Damn it wish I had known that. I already have a tab up there for baby bird food. 

Okay when the stuff gets here how do I administer?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oxytetracycline can be used for animal bites as well. From a UK site:

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei...ne+animal+bites&d=COo5KeljO7Jz&icp=1&.intl=us

fp


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

The only rehabber I heard anything back from (And only because I called again today) was from her husband saying "She's taking the summer off"


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, if Pidgey can't get Doxycycline as previously mentioned, it may be a good
> idea to use the Clavamox anyway if there's going to be a home nursing situation
> to guard against possible infection in the puncture area. Just a different concern, but still addressed w/antibiotics.
> 
> fp




Hi fp, pidgey, all...


Far as topical or conspicuous surface area wound site infections...

If not showing up by now, there will be none.


It is the potential presence of a 'slow to show' systemic Bacterial 'infection' which I would feel is of possible concern, and similarly, if no conspicuous signs of that by Tuesady, I would say the Dove is "fine" as-is and does not need the meds.

At least I never saw any similar injured Bird who did.


Any topical infection peospects would almost certainly have been headed-off with the 'Neosporin' anyway...at least I have never seen any already even that were obviously infected wounds that did not clear up fast with 'Neosprin', and I have never seen any topical, wound site infections start to appear so long after a wound was made, with or without a topical antibiotic.


Since when did Doxycycline become the recommended med for Cat or God or Hawk bites and lacerations?


Originaly everyone was saying 'Batryil'...then acting as if they'd always been saying "Clavamox", now acting like they have always been saying 'Doxicycline"???


Which the heck is it then?


For Petes sake, I never lost one from bites when all I had was some OLD out of date, Brown bottle with the rubber top "injectable'' Oxytetricyline which I merely added to their Water, and for that matter, I very rarely lost any when I had no meds at all...


So do tell please, ( or it is a variaiton of musical chairs?) just which med IS it supposed to be then which we elect for Dog, Cat and Hawk inflicted bites and lacerations?


Wanna pick yet one more new one just for fun?


Oye...


Lol...

& Yeeeeesh!


Phil
Las Vee


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does the dove appear to be getting and feeling better or do you see any signs of it starting to worsen?

Pidgey


----------



## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Actually from what you guys have said previously he might be doing better becuase he's being a bit skittish. Also started puffing up his feathers when he sleeps. He is still holding the wing the same way, not falling over. Still eating and drinking. Still alert when he's awake. Not oozing or anything.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dreams, 


Please do not be getting Oxytetricycline doses mixed up with "Clavamox" from confused and conflicting postings.

If the Dove is 'puffing up' their Feathers, it may be a not-so-good sign.

How, and where are you keeping them? Do you have Air conditioning? What is the Dove in?

Are they eating"

How many poops in 24 hours?

Are they on a white towell or similar, changed each morning, so you can see and count and evaluate the poops?


I already posted the particulars about what I sent, and what the Pills are mg wise...and how many.


I can go over it now, or go over it later, but either way, I would appeaciate it if others would be kind enough not to get things too confused here, with all this jabber about OTHER meds which 'dreams' does NOT have, and which I did not send to them, and heich no one else sent to them, so the attention can be on what is actually real and immediate and actual, in this situation.

Love..!

And best wishes, 

Phil
l v


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp, pidgey, all...
> 
> 
> Far as topical or conspicuous surface area wound site infections...
> ...


Phil, for puncture wounds, most of the vets I've been to from different hospitals in the area will prescribe antibiotics whether or not Pasteurella M.
is an issue.

For animal bites, Clavamox is the preferred drug because of the range of
pathogens it will get. If the patient has an allergy, they are currently using
members of the Tetracycline family as an acceptible alternative. I've
read that some ER's here in the US are using this alternative as a stand
alone, and also read that in the UK, they use it in combination therapy
w/Metronidazole.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> Actually from what you guys have said previously he might be doing better becuase he's being a bit skittish. Also started puffing up his feathers when he sleeps. He is still holding the wing the same way, not falling over. Still eating and drinking. Still alert when he's awake. Not oozing or anything.


Well, the puffing doesn't sound reassuring. What exactly do you have on your
shelf for a baby bird med?

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Dreams,
> 
> 
> Please do not be getting Oxytetricycline doses mixed up with "Clavamox" from confused and conflicting postings.
> ...


Phil, there is no confusion at all here.

fp


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Eating fine, and drinking. In a warm box. Papers changed daily. Not sure on the poop.


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, the puffing doesn't sound reassuring. What exactly do you have on your
> shelf for a baby bird med?
> 
> fp


Nothing. I wasn't kididing yesterday. You have a list of everything on hand.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> Damn it wish I had known that. I already have a tab up there for baby bird food.
> 
> Okay when the stuff gets here how do I administer?





Hi dreams, 


Huh? a 'tab' of what exactly?


How old, how kept?


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> Damn it wish I had known that. I already have a tab up there for baby bird food.
> 
> Okay when the stuff gets here how do I administer?


So this was a joke??

fp


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> So this was a joke??
> 
> fp


To Feral

What are you talking about? What joke? I get baby bird FOOD on tab at Sunrise Garden and Grains. The palce Pidgey mentioned. Which is what I was responding to when I made that comment. Have never gotten MEDS from her. If I had known they HAD meds I would have had someone drive me up there Saturday when this started. Assuming someone would have told me what kind of meds I would need. As far as I knew they sold feed and hunting equipment and that was all. Until Pidgey said something I had no idea they had meds.

When I said I wasn't kidding I meant that I meant what I said about not having any meds on hand. 



To Phil 

I charge bird seed in the middle of the month and pay off at the beginning. When we had babys I would do it with baby food. Well kept and the owner likes us.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, for puncture wounds, most of the vets I've been to from different hospitals in the area will prescribe antibiotics whether or not Pasteurella M.
> is an issue.



Hi fp,


Yes,this is my understanding also...and, we may consider, that 'they' ( the Vets or other MDs) have that 'Luxury' TO do so...where, most lay-people, first or second timers or neophytes, do not and will not have those meds handy, nor, will they have any means of obtaining them ( unless they have recourse to a DVM or MD or some sort of dispensing Physician or way WAY 'friendly' sympathetic Pharmacist...or, a decent Farm and Feed Store! )



> For animal bites, Clavamox is the preferred drug because of the range of
> pathogens it will get.



Thank you...

This has been my appreciaiton also...and, that of the Vet I sometimes see ( or bring patients for him to 'see', at any rate...)

Certainly, various other medicines ARE greatly better than nothing when some mischief IS afoot...and can effect the cure even if not the ideal choice to use.




> If the patient has an allergy, they are currently using
> members of the Tetracycline family as an acceptible alternative. I've
> read that some ER's here in the US are using this alternative as a stand
> alone, and also read that in the UK, they use it in combination therapy
> ...



Yes, I have read of this also...and of course, we would have little means of guessing pre-emtively, whether a Bird would have such an allergy, or, we proceed when adminstering the meds we do, with the hope that they do not.


Are any instances known of, or have any of us ever heard, of any Birds of any Species having allergies to any particular Anti-Biotics?


Be good to know, if there were any such mentions...



Thanks fp!


You have been a stellar Sport with me...



Love, all...

Phil
l v


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Umm bad thing! My sister just looked in on him and he twisted his wing oddly and now it'd bleeding again. And we used the last of the neosporin this morning. Watery blood, very pale, and not a lot of it but it is concerning me


Edit: Bleeding stopped.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dreams, 



Oh, thought you meant a 'tab' as in 'Tablet' of Antibiotics of some kind...


Anyway...hmmmm...

If the Dove is eating and making lots of well formed ( pick 'em up in your fingers and toss 'em if you want, of 'solid' ) poops, then that is very good indeed.


Being 'puffed up' of course is a 'Red Alert' to everyone here, since that is something a Bird will do when they are feeling poorly, or, when they are not generating enough body heat, which itself, is a suggestion of illness or compromise.


Now, this Dove has been through some undeniably rough experiences here of late, and is entitled to be feeling at least somewhat poorly just on account of general trauma and stress and so on.


Definitely do some fresh slathers generously, of the 'Neospoin' each day...


And, keep his little Water Bowl clean-as-a-Whistle...

If he is getting TOO 'flighty' or 'explosive' you can gently tape his Primarys together over the small of his back, which he will hate you for, but it will see him stay 'put' when he is not shrugging to get out of it.

Drape his cage on the sides, or even all over...always move VERY slowly when anywhere around him, and do not look at him ever, unless you are actually doing something like applying meds or putting a pill into his Beak.

If you need to catch him,. do it with all lights out, so there is as little light as possible, but just enough for you to see by...and do it as gently as possible, of course.

...and if you have something soft you can somehow have in the inside top of the cage, do that if he is free to "launch", because they can launch like-a-Bullet straight up and really hurt themselves if it is not soft and well padded up there.


And we shall see from here...



If...IF...it still seems that the meds I sent should be used...

My understanding, which I would hope others will review, is -



I sent Eight, 62.5 mG Tablets. Enough then for Eight Days...if Eight Days is felt prudent.

One 62.5 mG Tablet covers one 24 hour period.

So, as the regimen, the Dove would get 1/2 a Tablet every 12 hours.

These small Tablets break in half nicely just in the fingertips ( and a half can be broken yet again to make it into two easy to swallow pieces for the Dove, if they have a small Beak, as many seem to have.)

One gently wraps the Dove in two paper towells or some smallish soft Towell or cloth, and holds the low towell extra part, between one's thighs, and that way the Bird is like a longish 'Burrito' which one holds then BY the actual extra towelling part which is longer than he is...

This lets you have both hands free...the Bird is sitting stright 'up', and someone can gently cover his head, too, with a cupped palm, which helps.


And one gently opens his Beak by only opening it up and down and no sideways pressure, useing ones finger tips gently ( no tools of course, only finger tips) ...and puts the pill part into his mouth far enough to the back for him to swallow it, which he obliginely will do, too.


Each Tablet is 62.5 milligrammes, and the dose per Kilogramme for Avian situations is 125 miligrammes per Kilo, every 12 hours...which is also a total of 250 mG every 24 hours then.

Dove is 1/8th of a Kilo, and 1/8th of ( 125 mG x 2 times-a-day, or) 250 mG, is, about 31.25 mG

So, the Dove, I guessed to weigh about 125 Grammes ( or Grams ) which is 1/8th of a Kilogramme ( or Kilo) .

Thus making a neat and simple 1/2 Tablet ( which would be 31.25 mG of medicine, since each Tablet is 62.5 mG ) every 12 hours.

Does this sound right to everyone?


There is no way to ever outline dosages where it gets any simpler than this!


These things will drive you nuts trying to make sure you have them right!


Lol...

And true!


Best wishes...

Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> To Feral
> 
> What are you talking about? What joke? I get baby bird FOOD on tab at Sunrise Garden and Grains. The palce Pidgey mentioned. Which is what I was responding to when I made that comment. Have never gotten MEDS from her. If I had known they HAD meds I would have had someone drive me up there Saturday when this started. Assuming someone would have told me what kind of meds I would need. As far as I knew they sold feed and hunting equipment and that was all. Until Pidgey said something I had no idea they had meds.
> 
> ...


DUH!!! A TAB!!! OK, that's workable, then. If you can get said medication
on tab, in addition to Metronidazole--which they may well have--we are cooking w/gas. They may have another antibiotic ointment like Bacitracin
or the like as well.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The thing that is most worrisome is that the bird could get the systemic version of a Pasteurella multocida infection. They often call it "fowl cholera" and it's pretty rough.

Pidgey


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

To anyone still around, he just escaped the box and ran across the floor through two rooms and to the front door where he proceeded to peck at it until my sister returned him to his box. He moved quickly and steedy. And is currently pecking at seeds in the box in what could only be described as a fairly annoyed manor.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Now, I'm laughing! (at the "tab" thing--I got it when you first said it)

Anyhow, I asked about all the antibiotics that they had and I think I've listed them all--not very many. However, they may not think of Metronidazole as an antibiotic.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, having lived through the sixties, everything was 
a tab of something...  

fp

...or was it a blotter?


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

lmao I really did luck into some interesting and helpful people here didn't I? I'm very glad to have met you all and joined this little community.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ok .. you Hippie Dippie folks who remember all that stuff .. now you KNOW that the "tab" is the bill at the supply place  Way too funny .. too bad I'm old enough to have "gotten" the whole thing.

Best of luck with this bird .. thank you, Phil, for sending the meds and to all who are helping here on this thread .. even if you might be "tab" impaired  

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Darn, Terry, I'm even older and got "both tabs!" ROFL

Uh, yeah, Dreams, we ARE quite the diverse group! STILL LAUGHING!

Sending BEST HEALING THOUGHTS along with HUGS and SCRITCHES to you and your dove!

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dreams_of_Ice said:


> Umm bad thing! My sister just looked in on him and he twisted his wing oddly and now it'd bleeding again. And we used the last of the neosporin this morning. Watery blood, very pale, and not a lot of it but it is concerning me
> 
> 
> Edit: Bleeding stopped.




Hi dreams, 


Sorry, somehow I missed this post of yours...


Watery Blood...can't think of what that is called...but might indicate mild infection...otherwise, I would not be expecting any continued bleeding as such, syrums or whatever this is called, can build up under closed punctures sometimes...not ecactly 'pus' but an exudae or plasma or...


Wounds should be inspected every day to see how they are doing.


Certainly, he is going to be in some discomforts, no matter what, for the time being.


I will read on...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Doesn't take much sometimes, lol. I did find it fascinating that Mourning
> Doves are the closest relative living to the Passenger Pigeons.
> 
> fp



Hi fp,


I did not know this...

I would have supposed the 'Wood Pigeon'...


Interesting...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, having lived through the sixties, everything was
> a tab of something...
> 
> fp
> ...




If you knew the right people..."Ampules"...from 'Switzerland'...


But then, that is going 'back' some ways of course, before 'Blotter'....


Was pretty obscure 'then'...



Phil
l v


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

We'll be sure to check the wound again today after my sister (Who is sleeping with the box in her room because it is the hottest room in the house) wakes up.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HI dreams, 


...alrighty...


No hurry to bother the Dove just to check...but just in general, at some point during the day or evening, it is good to check any healing injurys or wounds to see how they are doing, progressing, getting along...see how they look. Slather some more 'Neosporin' on any places which seem to still be needing it. Keeps everything soft and moist that way too.

Doves ( these kind I mean, ) really hate being handled and can protes a great deal...so that is something less than ideal of course.


I have one presently, also Cat mauled...dozens of sutures...and so WILD and wacky...yeeeesh...! and a young one, very small...

When in 'Hand Nest', easy as can be...when I am examining him, laying him on his side and lifting his wing and so on, easy as pie...but one inch OUT of Hand Nest, and he is an instant "ROCKET"...


This one I have also has one bad foot, some old long prior injury from the Wilds, or I would have taped his Wings...but with the bad foot, he'd fall over, or if he did, it would be hard for him to right himself...and that would be no good of course...so...we abide...


He sometimes lets me pick him up to inspect things, and mostly, forget it...he is all over his Cage bouncing off the sides and so on, terrible...I tried letting him Free Fly in here with the various others, and he was too wacky even for that, hit the wall and so on, no good, so, back in the Cage for the time being, hoping some of the other Birds may council him privately about how to behave...and not to 'worry'..!


Phil
l v


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

First I want to thank you all for the help, and the incredible support you've given us. And the amazing outflow of love for an animal most people barely tolerate. 

I'm sorry to announce, sometime this morning between the time I left on the bus and the time I arrived home and got the proper dosage on the medicine our feathered patient passed away. He gave no signs, he even seemed, with the exception of the fluffing to be doing a bit better.  



P.S. 

Phil we'll see what we can do about shipping your meds back when they arrive okay?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am so very sorry to read this. I had hoped he would pull through. Thank you for all you did for him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HI dreams, 


Ohhhhh sheeeeeesh...

I was sure not expecting this at all, but it can happen of course. Happens to all of us now and then when dealing with injured Birds.


You sure have been a good sport with all this and you did a great job there trying to help him. 


You may as well keep the meds in the fridge, in case you get another Cat or Dog or Hawk caught one where it might come in handy. If a bigger Bird, you would need more for a course of treatment, and I am sure that can be arranged if need be. And I know if you do, you will write in and have us walk you through it.


Thanks for your good try



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Dreams of Ice, I'm so sorry to hear about your little friend, heartbreaking
really. Now you know the issues w/the bacterial problems of a predator
attack and will have some tools in the house for the next time. Hope you
stick around, thanks for all you diid for your rescue.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am very sorry to hear the little one didn't make it.
You provided him/her with the best care. Thank you.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about the little one, thank you for trying and doing your best.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, send my condolences, Dreams! What a shame!

We know you did your best and we all thank you for the time you gave. 

Sending LOVE and WARM HUGS...

Shi


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## dreams_of_Ice (Jul 29, 2007)

Thank you all so very much. I will definately be sticking around. And I will definetly be letting you guys know if we get another unexpected visitor. You people amaze me with your kindness and generousity. And the way you all just leapt up to help. The world needs more people like you.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

My sincere condolences to you & your sister.  

*"Bless you, sweet baby dove"*

Cindy


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