# How many Pigeons can I keep??



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Hi,

Today a city Enformcent officer had come out while I was at work unexpectedly and they went and did an inspection of my bird coop due to a complaint from a bad neighbor above my property. The inspector had left me a business card to contact him so the following day I contacted him and he said he will let me know by mail about the inspection. I know cities have a limit of how many birds you could keep and I was wondering if anyone would know for sure what my limits are.

Thanks,


----------



## Doig (May 18, 2013)

sorry, but I do not know. In my area they allow us to have as much birds as we can have just need a license that the neighbors around your house will agree and sign to. 

Hopefully someone knows.


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

aww man hold onto your socks . you can go to the court house and look it up . you also might want to read the post "a note from my town"... just about the same thing happened to him ... good luck ...... was you loft clean ?


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Doig said:


> sorry, but I do not know. In my area they allow us to have as much birds as we can have just need a license that the neighbors around your house will agree and sign to.
> 
> Hopefully someone knows.


All of my neighbors have been cool with it and actually couple of them come over sometime to see the birds and watch the baby pigeons but, just one has turned in to an A*S and is trying everthing to upset me and thats why the city was out the first time in over 7 years i've lived there.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> aww man hold onto your socks . you can go to the court house and look it up . you also might want to read the post "a note from my town"... just about the same thing happened to him ... good luck ...... was you loft clean ?[/QUOTE
> 
> Yes my coop is super clean & I'm very meticulous about cleaning it.


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

that's a good thing that your loft was clean .


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

why did you not ask the city.? Im sure you will find out if there is a problem.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> why did you not ask the city.? Im sure you will find out if there is a problem.


Asking them it's like opening can of warms 

I was able to find this on the city website which states the following:

(c) A maximum of one hundred (100) racing or homing pigeons may be kept on any lot or parcel of land within the R-E, R-A or R-1 zone, provided the pigeon owners in the application file with the city a letter stating their affiliation with any state or nationally recognized racing or homing pigeon association or federation.

The term “racing or homing pigeon” shall mean pedigree pigeons which are banded and kept for the purpose of racing or homing sporting events conducted by a nationally affiliated sporting association, such as, but not limited to, the American Racing Pigeon Union or the International Federation of Racing Pigeon Fanciers.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

*Good News!*

Just got off the phone with the city inspector that came over yesterday and he said i could keep 100 Pigeons (due to zoning of my property and the size of it 
but, they need to be racing or homing pigeons and i need to show them (proof) which I am part of a club and such...**DO i join the local SD Pigeon CLub and have them write me letter??
also their coop is not an actual buiding used for human usage which that should be no problem with all the perches &nest boxes inside.
He also stated he was very pleased with the structure and how clean my coop was and birds look very nice and clean and no smell what so ever **got to love pine shavings **
I guess I need to wait for the letter and see what else is needed. 
I will keep you guys posted.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Nice work. You DID take a bit of a risk by calling an inspector out there. I would not have suggested that, I would have suggested you do what you also did: scour local and state codes and find the applicable sections and bring that to the neighbor.

Your risk paid off, however...probably you now have the inspector on your side and should the neighbor continue to b#tch, perhaps the inspector can have a word with him...

Anyway...do you let your birds out, or is it a closed loft ? If you let them out to fly and they return, then VOILA....you have 'Homing' Pigeons . I do NOT think you would need to join a club and have anything written to PROVE they are Homers...unless the inspector or the letter specifically addresses that. So unless he or it does request such, I would not do anything regarding that. If in the future anyone ever brings it up, just reply 'they are Homers'. Period.

Nice ending to the story ! Many (most) municipalities don't really have specific, concise codes which address this and therefore it is oftentimes left up to the interpretation of particular department officials...who oftentimes make very, very specious 'interpretations' due to the general hatred of Pigeons; your tale has turned out much better. And I agree, probably the overall cleanliness and condition of your loft helped you out, too.


----------



## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

yes nice work good news


----------



## ozarkbill (Aug 17, 2008)

*advice*

Put some bands on some to show they are racers.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Nice work. You DID take a bit of a risk by calling an inspector out there. I would not have suggested that, I would have suggested you do what you also did: scour local and state codes and find the applicable sections and bring that to the neighbor.
> 
> Your risk paid off, however...probably you now have the inspector on your side and should the neighbor continue to b#tch, perhaps the inspector can have a word with him...
> 
> ...


I didn't call the inspector to come out he had showed up based on the initial complain from my bad neighbor. He had left a buisness card so i contacted him the following day.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

ozarkbill said:


> Put some bands on some to show they are racers.


All my Birds are banded and I do fly all of my birds when the weather is right anytime between March to Aug so I guess I'm safe There


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

*City Letter*

*THE VIOLATIONS NOTED ARE AS FOLLOWS:*

1. The pigeons housed on the property are not permitted. EZC 33-1313 Pursuant to EZC 33-1111(c)
2. The Buildings Located at the top of the hill side were constructed without permit, inspection, or aproval. EMC 6-12- EMC 6-12.2, EMC 6-13.1 / CBC 105.1, CBC 114.1

AS THE OWNER OF RECORD, YOU ARE HEREBY ORDERED TO MAKE THE FOLLWING CORRECTIONS AS SPECIFIED BELOW:

1.Remove the pigeons housed on the property, or file a letter with city providing affiliation with any state or nationally recognized racing or homing pigoen association or federation.
2.Demolish the buildings located at the top of the hill side, or sumbit detailed plans to both the planning and Buidling divisions for review.

If you fail to comply wiht this notice in abating all violations as required, with the time allotted, reisnpection fees may be assessed and, or you may be issued an administrative citation. The first citation has a mandatory fine of $100.00, the second citation is $500.00 and each subsequent citation is $1000.00, ech day a violation exists is a separrate violation and may by cited.
additionally, the case may be referred ot city Attorney Officce for another Legal action.


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

Well at least they gave you 2 things that you must do in order to keep your birds . join the npa. that will cost you 15$ here is a link http://www.npausa.com/ the hard on is submitting a detailed plan of your building . I would do 1 of 2 things .1 is have a lawyer submit the plans for you or 2 have engineering firm submit them for you . In having one of them submitting the plans for gives you a piece of mind knowing that the wording is correct and it was filled correctly . good luck


----------



## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

That is F--- up


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> Well at least they gave you 2 things that you must do in order to keep your birds . join the npa. that will cost you 15$ here is a link http://www.npausa.com/ the hard on is submitting a detailed plan of your building . I would do 1 of 2 things .1 is have a lawyer submit the plans for you or 2 have engineering firm submit them for you . In having one of them submitting the plans for gives you a piece of mind knowing that the wording is correct and it was filled correctly . good luck


Thanks for the info and the link. But, would npa write me a letter that I'm a member??


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

yes the npa gives you a I will say a letter saying that you are a member . Its well worth the money and they have many resources that you can use as in bands and the list goes on and on


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> yes the npa gives you a I will say a letter saying that you are a member . Its well worth the money and they have many resources that you can use as in bands and the list goes on and on


I joined npa and spoke to them and they said they will write me a letter and email it to me which was very nice of them. But, my main issue is the coop which I spoke to couple attorneys and they all suggested just going to the city and explain my situation since i designed my coop and its not an actuall building and see what they say and go from there. I really dont want to bring down my coop beause so many other people in the area have chicken coops & horse stables and i dought everyone of them had to get a permit to build a chicken coop or horse stable. This really sucks!


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

I would check and see . Is A/ its not a permanent building if it does not have a foundation and "could" be removed .
And see if that is a loop hole.

B if u can draw up a blue print and pay the building permit, and presto its built .

Just a thought


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

here I'm supposed to pull a permit to put in a new shed or build anything . but if it is not permanent ( can be moved) you don't need permits . that just one loophole that a lot of the amish and mennonites use .The put wheels on everything .


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> here I'm supposed to pull a permit to put in a new shed or build anything . but if it is not permanent ( can be moved) you don't need permits . that just one loophole that a lot of the amish and mennonites use .The put wheels on everything .


Mine is not a permanent and its just sitting on blocks so I could add wheels to it if that would save me from the headache with the city. Here are some pictures of it.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

some inside pictures


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

make them funcching wheels you should be able to pick up a cheap axial and don't forget the hitching point . . you may still need to submit a detailed plan to the city . but having wheels on it they can plainly see that it's movible .
that is one nice loft


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

oh one more thing you most likely don't need to have wheels on the outside of the loft . the axle can be hung underneath and a pair of wheels sitting in your sheed .
good luck . that way the inspector can't say you just added the wheels .


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> oh one more thing you most likely don't need to have wheels on the outside of the loft . the axle can be hung underneath and a pair of wheels sitting in your sheed .
> good luck . that way the inspector can't say you just added the wheels .


Thanks Jason. I was able to get the letter from NPA but, I don't think I could swing the whole wheel thing because the maximum SQF for tool shed is 
125 sqf and mine is about 185 or so. I just need to find an attorney that deals with building codes to see if a bird coop really qualifies to have a such permit beause I'm starting to feel like the city is really pushing me to corner and trying to force me to get rid of my coop and birds but, I will not give up and fight this.


----------



## ozarkbill (Aug 17, 2008)

*mabe question is*

Maybe the question is more like how many pigeons you should keep? Maybe a limit would make neighbors see you as not an eyesore or pest. Keeping a dozen or so is lots different than 100 or so. And that is a big coop for a town area.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

ozarkbill said:


> Maybe the question is more like how many pigeons you should keep? Maybe a limit would make neighbors see you as not an eyesore or pest. Keeping a dozen or so is lots different than 100 or so. And that is a big coop for a town area.


I'm reducing the number for sure and im still under the limit allowed. I live in the country side and everyone around has horses, cows, chickens & etc... its just this one neighbor that's trying to create problems for me and thats the only thing he could come up with.


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

ok your 1/2 way there . I think thats a good idea getting a lawyer ..good luck


----------



## Chad20190 (Aug 24, 2012)

Some people just don't have a life. Have you asked this neighbor what their problem is? I had to get rid of mine not because of the county but the HOA grrr. By the looks of your loft, which is nice and clean looking by the way, you take very good care of your birds. good luck and is you have the $ fight the city. I love living here in the U.S. but sometimes it can be a drag haha.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

*Update*

So went down to the city hall yesterday spoke to the building division and They couldn't believe someone actually complained about such thing. So my coop has to be 120sqf total which i was slightly above that. They said I could try to get a permit but, they didn't recommend it since i could just chop down a section of the coop and make it smaller and I'll be done and over. So Spent a few hours choping down my breeding coop and made the adjustments and I guess will see how it goes. 
(By the way i could have another 120sqf coop 10 feet away from my exicting coop so new coop will be made sometime soon


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

that's what I would do build a 2nd loft and tell the neighbor to kiss my ---- I'm glad things are working out for you


----------



## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

So glad things are looking up. Yes, it is very sad that "one bad apple" tends to rule....but you are being very calm and logical and doing a good p.r. for yourself by visiting the city offices, let them get to know you, keep a sense of humour if possible, and show them your obvious intelligence and wish to abide by law. Since you are such a classy man and able to keep a lid on it, perhaps you could drop in to discuss this in the future with that neighbour and ask what his main complaint is and invite him to come over and see how well-kept and clean your loft is. I would also take along some info regarding the fact that pigeons do no pose a health hazard to humans and are no more dangerous than any other bird or mammal in that regard. You have homers, by the way, since you let them fly and they return, have joined the npa and show him your membership card if that might help. Best of luck and keep us posted.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> that's what I would do build a 2nd loft and tell the neighbor to kiss my ---- I'm glad things are working out for you


Lol, I'm going to build a new one as soon as things cool off.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

spiritflys said:


> So glad things are looking up. Yes, it is very sad that "one bad apple" tends to rule....but you are being very calm and logical and doing a good p.r. for yourself by visiting the city offices, let them get to know you, keep a sense of humour if possible, and show them your obvious intelligence and wish to abide by law. Since you are such a classy man and able to keep a lid on it, perhaps you could drop in to discuss this in the future with that neighbour and ask what his main complaint is and invite him to come over and see how well-kept and clean your loft is. I would also take along some info regarding the fact that pigeons do no pose a health hazard to humans and are no more dangerous than any other bird or mammal in that regard. You have homers, by the way, since you let them fly and they return, have joined the npa and show him your membership card if that might help. Best of luck and keep us posted.


The people over the city hall were very nice and I actully showed them some pictures of my loft and the birds and they loved it. but, the neighbor is just an idiot and he's been avoiding me since and he forgot that his giant tool shed is way over city limits so they are going to send him a notice soon because when the city enforcemet office came out he thought that tool shed belongs to me since there are no fence in between our properties.


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

good deal .looks like he opened up a can of worms


----------



## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

O man it's on open it up


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

*New Update********

This was my respond letter to the city that my girfriend wrote for me after looking up the zoning codes & etc...... (she is an Attorney 




August 7, 2013


Code Enforcement Officer II
City of *******
Code Enforcement Division


RE: Case Number: ********
Subject:	**************
Description:	Assessor’s Parcel Number **********

Dear Officer ****,

I am in receipt of your letter dated July 3, 2013. Your letter states that my request for an extension has been granted until August 2, 2014. Your letter also states you have received verification of my affiliation with the National Pigeon Association, a recognized Racing Pigeon Associations. This leaves two issues to be addressed:1) a site plan of my property detailing my property lines and placement of the pigeon coop, as well as dimensions of the coop and the proximity to my property lines, and 2) an additional submittal to the Building Division may be needed depending on the dimensions of the coop.

I am now responding to your letter providing all information requested in your letter of July 3, 2013, prior to the deadline of August 2, 2013.

I.	Site Plan

A.	Placement of Coop 

As per the ****** Municipal Code (“***”) Article 9 Animal Overlay, Sec. 33-145, animal enclosure setback requirements are as follows:

(a) Animal enclosures shall be set back from property lines as follows:
(1)	Side yard: fifteen (15) feet.
(2)	Rear yard: ten (10) feet.
(b) Animal enclosures shall be set back from any residence twenty (20) feet. (Zoning Code, Ch. 104, §§ 1049.42.2—1049.42.3; Ord. No. 90-40, § 1, 8-15-90)

The pigeon coop on my property is located in the rear of my property. The distance from the east side yard is at least 15.7 feet; the distance from the west side yard is at least 76.8 feet; the distance from the rear yard is at least 12 feet and the pigeon coop is set back from my residence by at least 112 feet. Therefore, my pigeon coop is in compliance with Sec. 33.145.

B.	Dimensions of Coop

The coop is 15.5 feet long and 7.8 feet high. This is smaller than the original dimensions of the coop, which I have reduced my removing a portion of the coop. The previous structure was 23.5 feet long and 7.8 feet high. I have reduced the overall length by 8 feet. I am enclosing pictures of the before and after dimensions of the coop.

In conclusion, I have provided all requested information with regard to the pigeon coop on my property and have also established that the coop is in compliance with all applicable code sections under the Escondido Municipal Code. Since my coop is in compliance, an additional submittal to the Building Division related to the dimensions of the coop is unnecessary.

Regards,

**** *********


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

*My Hard Work Paid off *

So the City Enforcment office came out yesterday & spoke to my brother since I was at work and did an inspection to make sure I really made the coop smaller. He said he was going to close the case so I guess I'll be waiting to for the last letter.


----------



## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Wow! Such an excellent letter written to the City by your lawyer/girlfriend. This is what succeeds: Fighting them on THEIR TERMS and ON THEIR LEVEL. They are sticklers for going by the rules and your letter assures them that all required accommodations have been met. You have gained their total respect, and they can see you are very "up" on requirements, and no "idiot they can shove around," a worthy adversary. And this is very good p.r. work on behalf of pigeons and their owners. Good on ya, man.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

spiritflys said:


> Wow! Such an excellent letter written to the City by your lawyer/girlfriend. This is what succeeds: Fighting them on THEIR TERMS and ON THEIR LEVEL. They are sticklers for going by the rules and your letter assures them that all required accommodations have been met. You have gained their total respect, and they can see you are very "up" on requirements, and no "idiot they can shove around," a worthy adversary. And this is very good p.r. work on behalf of pigeons and their owners. Good on ya, man.


Thanks, the way the first letter was written seemed like I couldn't keep any pigeons at all which seemed odd living in area that is full of livestock and being near an chicken farm that has thousand of chickens and me not being able to keep pigeons but,thanks to the grilfriend for doing some research & going down to the cityhall and speaking to them got the reall truth out.


----------



## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

good deal I'm glade everything worked out for you


----------



## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Shows we can accomplish MUCH with help and sticking together and doing the homework. Well done. Have you found out how many pigeons you can keep yet? lol


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> good deal I'm glade everything worked out for you


Jason thanks again for your advise and help with my sutiation.


----------



## kaftar (Jun 18, 2007)

spiritflys said:


> Shows we can accomplish MUCH with help and sticking together and doing the homework. Well done. Have you found out how many pigeons you can keep yet? lol


Yes this forum was great help and getting advise from others makes it much easier. Per my zoning code I could keep hundered birds which is more than enough for me since the cost of food has gone skyrocket.


----------

