# homozygous grizzle help



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Okay sorry if this had been brought up before.

I have a pair of homer which is my dominate pair in my loft. Yes its this old pair that i been bringing up about sex-linking. 
check link below for the old tread.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/sex-link-help-68155.html

Picture of the dominate pair. 
*Blue base Cock* x *Red Base Rec.white Hen*
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/picture.php?albumid=2144&pictureid=22000









~5th round~
*Okay this is the last batch from this pair. Both are pretty birds. I did not expect to get any offspring this white wash. 
Both are almost done with their 1st moult which should show what their color are and their gender. 
But somehow, im having issue. Comparing to the other sibling, these two are so much whiter--> less red and blue expressing.*


*This is the cock.*









If you dont exam this guy closely, you could mistaking it for a Rec.white. Yes it has the Rec.white gene from the mother side but its a homozygous red grizzle. 
The only way i know its red grizzle because this is a sex-link and any red will 100% cock. This guy has very little red at the tip of its tail to confirms it. 
Right now its is dancing and cooing heavy because it searching for a mate.

Now the question is; how come this guy dont show any blue fleck to indicates it is a split from blue??? 
Yes i know that some ash red dont have fleck but that is because it is *not* a split from blue. 

If this guy is a split from blue, *why arent there any blue fleck??* Because mother is red underneaths and father is a fully blue base. 
Therefore this cock must show blue fleck to indicate it is split. But its as white as a rec.white. Also both eyes are bull.
Could the white eventually wash up those blue fleck on a cock with blue split?? 

*This may be a 90% Hen.*









I say 90% because those are grizzle marks. A blue homozygous grizzle. I though it was Almond but that is not possible. 
This one do not coo and dance like the one above. Both are 5 months old but this one show no cock personality.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

He doesn't show blue flecks because he doesn't show any pigment due to the heavy grizzling and possibly rec white. He has bull eyes yes???? I have a few birds I believe to be recessive white that show the odd tiny fleck in their tail. Maybe they are recessive pieds, have not studied it.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

If the blue is from a pairing of a red based hen to a blue based cock then it is a hen, as you said above, the pair is sex linked, All cocks are going to be red based carrying blue, All hens will be blue.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> He doesn't show blue flecks because he doesn't show any pigment due to the heavy grizzling and possibly rec white. He has bull eyes yes???? I have a few birds I believe to be recessive white that show the odd tiny fleck in their tail. Maybe they are recessive pieds, have not studied it.


Yes, both eyes are bull.

hummm..but those of his other sibling from the older thread, they all have flecks. Yes, it could be that the heavy grizzling that washed those blue flecks out. 
The only way to find that its a red grizzle was that very little of red on the end tips of its tail as evident. Otherwise anyone will say this is a rec.white; considering that it has bull eyes and no flecks.

Mother is only rec.white and father do not have rec.white gene for sure. 
This is their 5th round and none rec.white pop out. Which 100% the father dont carry the rec.white gene. 

what are recessive pie?


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I think the father carries recessive white, This bird is so white that flecking is not showing because there is no pigment being allowed through, This is either due to the bird being pied, recessive white and or heavily grizzled but generally a heavy grizzled bird would show flecking as you have pointed out with your other birds.

If this bird was homozygous grizzle on red with no pied or recessive white it would have orange eyes.

So you have bred 10 young and this is the first that looks recessive white, Aside from no recessive whites in the past, what makes you think that the cock bird is not het rec white.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I think the father carries recessive white, This bird is so white that flecking is not showing because there is no pigment being allowed through, This is either due to the bird being pied, recessive white and or heavily grizzled but generally a heavy grizzled bird would show flecking as you have pointed out with your other birds.
> 
> If this bird was homozygous grizzle on red with no pied or recessive white it would have orange eyes.
> 
> So you have bred 10 young and this is the first that looks recessive white, Aside from no recessive whites in the past, what makes you think that the cock bird is not het rec white.


Yes, this is what confuses me that how can they yield a bird that soo close rec.white even father doesnt have *white* marks on him. 


there is no way for the father to carry the white gene. because if he does carries the rec.white gene, the chance of getting a rec.white should be 50%. 
But out of 5 rounds, non are rec.white except these last offsprings. 
Maybe he may carries pie from a long generation but would that had been lost already?
Beacuse I seen the parent of this cock and both parent are blue-checks.









When i pair this same cock with a brown hen.









This is what they yield. 
*a blue-check hen and a darkcheck pie cock*


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Although I agree it is unlikely you would breed so many young without getting a recessive white based on the 50% chance you cannot rule it out yet, It is down to odds. The odds of this occurring are not hugely unlikely, For all we know the next 2 rounds might be all recessive white young, that would balance the odds out so although I agree it is unlikely, you cannot say "there is no way" until you have bred 20 odd more without getting a recessive white again, then there is still the question of what is causing the all white bird with bull eyes in this thread...


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Is it possible a cock bird that is het rec white jumped the rec white hen?


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Is it possible a cock bird that is het rec white jumped the rec white hen?



yes that could be a possibility because i do have 1 rec.white cock but he is inferior to this blue check cock. He only control a small space and already have a mate. Trust he, the blue cock is the dominate bird in the loft and therefore his hen wont post for any other cocks to jump on. 

Also, i doubt that because the rec.white cock is red underneath too. So if he jump on this hen which is 10% success, would all their offspring be red? 
Then why do i get blue grizzle hen?? So sex-linking would had already rule this out.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Although I agree it is unlikely you would breed so many young without getting a recessive white based on the 50% chance you cannot rule it out yet, It is down to odds. The odds of this occurring are not hugely unlikely, For all we know the next 2 rounds might be all recessive white young, that would balance the odds out so although I agree it is unlikely, you cannot say "there is no way" until you have bred 20 odd more without getting a recessive white again, then there is still the question of what is causing the all white bird with bull eyes in this thread...


yes, i dont know how the bull eye get there. From the first round, one of their daughter has one bull and the other yellow. Otherwise every other cock has yellow eyes except for this one which really puzzling me.

About the color, do you think that as this cock moult out later on, its red color will start appearing. The bull eyes is not going to change for sure.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> yes that could be a possibility because i do have 1 rec.white cock but he is inferior to this blue check cock. He only control a small space and already have a mate. Trust he, the blue cock is the dominate bird in the loft and therefore his hen wont post for any other cocks to jump on.
> 
> Also, i doubt that because the rec.white cock is red underneath too. So if he jump on this hen which is 10% success, *would all their offspring be red*?
> Then why do i get blue grizzle hen?? So sex-linking would had already rule this out.


If the red cock that jumped the rec white hen is carrying blue which he will be if he is off a blue cock then they can produce blue hens, 50% will be blue. What is this cock bred off? Does he carry blue? If so sex linkage still allows the possibility I am putting across.

How do you get some of your stats? The 10% chance thing????


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> yes, i dont know how the bull eye get there. From the first round, one of their daughter has one bull and the other yellow. Otherwise every other cock has yellow eyes except for this one which really puzzling me.
> 
> About the color, do you think that as this cock moult out later one, its read color will start appearing. The bull eyes is not going to change for sure.


I suspect it will stay white.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> If the red cock that jumped the rec white hen is carrying blue which he will be if he is off a blue cock then they can produce blue hens, 50% will be blue. What is this cock bred off? Does he carry blue? If so sex linkage still allows the possibility I am putting across.
> 
> How do you get some of your stats? The 10% chance thing????


im just say 10% to indicate its low chance; saying that it could happen but i highly doubt.

The only rec.white cock. Red underneath. He come from a family of red grizzle as well as my rec.white hen. 
he may be a split of blue but not quite sure.









As you can see, all his offspring are red: both cock and hens has red flecks.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The bird that jumped the hen does not need to be rec white, He only needed to be het rec white, All the cockbirds you bred of the pair of birds which is a red based rec white hen to a blue based cock will be het rec white and carry blue, therefore, A lot of the cocks in your loft could jump your rec white hen to produce rec whites and blue hens amongst other options.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

So your original question was why does this cock not have blue flecks, Because its pigment has been cut either through rec white or pied and grizzle combo.

As far as the rest of it..... that's all possibilities but it is still possible that the original cockbird is het rec white, although the odds make it look unlikely.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> So your original question was why does this cock not have blue flecks, Because its pigment has been cut either through rec white or pied and grizzle combo.
> 
> As far as the rest of it..... that's all possibilities but it is still possible that the original cockbird is het rec white, although the odds make it look unlikely.


The only think i can think of is that you may be right about the blue cock might come from a line of bird with pie gene. Otherwise that bull eye shouldn't be there.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

So you do not agree that the lack of pigment is the reason the bird does not show flecks???

And you do not agree that its possible another cock carrying rec white and blue jumped the hen? 

And you do not agree there is a slim possibility the originally suspected father carries rec white?

You do have a lot of rec white birds which are red cock birds carrying blue from what I have seen in past threads.

I can assure you that those two possibilities are very possible. If you do not want to hear accept the answers, why ask questions? 

I am not just making this stuff up, It is fact.

It is frustrating when you take the time to explain something valid to someone to have them tell you that its not possible.. I am not getting at you and I wish to help you learn but you need to listen if you are going to ask, Ask the same question 30 times, I do not mind but It is frustrating to be told your valid answers are not possible by the person asking for help.


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I am not convinced that all het ash red males display blue flecks.
And if they do, there is only very little blue flecking compared to ash red areas.

So don't take that flecking rule so seriously...


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> I am not convinced that all het ash red males display blue flecks.
> And if they do, there is only very little blue flecking compared to ash red areas.
> 
> So don't take that flecking rule so seriously...


I am not convinced either but I am yet to find a heterozygous ash red cock without a fleck or two.

In saying all of that Henk, This bird is white, doesn't even show ash red colouring so would you agree in this case the lack of flecking is due to the bird being WHITE?


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> So you do not agree that the lack of pigment is the reason the bird does not show flecks???
> 
> And you do not agree that its possible another cock carrying rec white and blue jumped the hen?
> 
> ...


okay...calm down. first of all, where did i say that i disagree??
If you read what i wrote, i did not say anything that you are wrong and counter all you points. I think you must have misunderstood the replies. All you points are very valid and clear due to your year of experience. *Bottom line is that, i just dont quit get why they bird turn out the way it did. All your points are possible. I just conclude myself that one of your point did stand out which i agree strongly on rather then the others.*
*the point that the pie gene prob play a role in this. I dont know a lot about pie gene, but i do know that pie gene can make a bird have bull eyes because it washes out the color pigment. 

And im sorry if you felt that i offended your year of experience. Im very appreciate the fact you actually point out some valid points for my puzzle. And im very thankful for that.

I will take more photos of this bird tomorrow. i will show the red mark on its tail tip and also if i forgot to mention that this bird has smoky beak.


----------

