# Umm.... Grizzle? Red Grizzle?



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Okay I have a question. This birds mom looks similar to this but is more white and looks far more like your standard racing grizzle. Her dad is a DC Beakert Cock, that is 14 years old. Here are some pictures, Tell me what you think. I have looked into almost everything on the internet and Have looked back into this birds family tree and nothing out of the ordinary but grizzles on its mom's side.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Might be tortoiseshell*

Or tort for short. There is certainly bronze present. I believe that these birds are made up of T pattern blue, bronze and grizzle. There could be more to this one but maybe not, just a light tort. Very pretty bird. The blue on the bird looks very dark, nearly indigo but the tail bar looks like a blue. Darkening can come from several factors, dirty, smoky and sooty to name a few.

Bill


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

*PRETTY!!!! *
Are you going to fly this bird?


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> *PRETTY!!!! *
> Are you going to fly this bird?


Yes, Why else would I have it????  I've never seen Tort on anything other than a roller. If it falls in line with its gene pool it will molt out all the blue and end up with a white head and tail...


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2008)

thats an awesome looking bird that you have there but do you have any better side shots , Im very partial to the grizzles


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## David Ey (Dec 31, 2007)

Man, I like that bird. I send you my address and you can send her to me.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It may get more white*



Matt D. said:


> Yes, Why else would I have it????  I've never seen Tort on anything other than a roller. If it falls in line with its gene pool it will molt out all the blue and end up with a white head and tail...


But I don't see this one moulting all of the blue away. I've had very similar birds in my rollers and it's one of those that you wish would stay with it's baby plumage. Some of them will keep much of this color, some will get alot more white and are usually stork marks (homozygous grizzles).

Anyway, there is no reason not to see this in homers, you just need the right genes to come together. Do you have bronze or indigo in your birds? I think the homer people call indigo chocolate.

Bill


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Matt, that is a beautiful bird. Your birds always look ''fit as a fiddle''.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Well good news. This bird took the first race for me today. I had second which was 3 seconds from my bird then third was another 2 away (that's a total of 5 seconds behind this bird.) It was a 900ypm race and 3rd had 5 and a half miles on me. So this bird was hot. This is the second slow race we've had like that. I can't even figure out why the short end (me) is not only in the race but actually ahead. I'm not gonna change a thing.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Congratulations to you and your birds, Matt! Well done!

Terry


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

very nice looking bird and congrats on the race


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Beautiful bird! I love that color - and congratulations!


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Okay I've really been wondering about this bird a little bit more. I took a few more pictures now that it is done with its Young Bird Molt. It dropped alot of the blue out of the chest to become white feathers. All the tail feathers are still blue. http://picasaweb.google.com/thecrazypigeonman/YoungBirdTeam#5267498211793206210 What I can't figure out is why this bird doesn't seem to have any bars. Can anyone help me on this? Here is a picture from the other side its not such a great picture http://picasaweb.google.com/thecrazypigeonman/YoungBirdTeam#5267498157051888946


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*T patterns don't show bars*

Also known as velvets, they are a very dark check and probably what this bird is. Some call them blue blacks, black check and probably some other nicknames. Technically, the bars are still there but lost in the T pattern, similar to check only darker yet.

Bill


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

jbangelfish said:


> Also known as velvets, they are a very dark check and probably what this bird is. Some call them blue blacks, black check and probably some other nicknames. Technically, the bars are still there but lost in the T pattern, similar to check only darker yet.
> 
> Bill


Okay, But... Dad's a BC and mom is genetically a BB. She has the same thing going as this bird does along with a few of its siblings. I know mom's a BB because both its parents were BB, and there is not barless in this family. So If I'm right that would make it impossible for these birds to be T-pattern. Thanks for you reply.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Matt, The bird is a grizzle and the mom of this bird is grizzle.You said that the cock is a BECKERT, when I was racing I had quite a few BECKERTS and they would throw a dark check youngster every so often that showed a hint of red in the primary flights. I never could figuar it out and at the time I was racing and it was performance and not color that I was intrested.Now that I have become intrested in color I feel that there may be Indigo in the mix here.Check the cock out real close,sometimes a blue check will carry indigo but for some reason it is hard to see, I currently have a pair of Indigos and it is strong on the hen but very weak on the cock.I hope that I have not confused you.Your post on this bird has so intrigue me so I will use a blue grizzle in my INDIGO project at some time,I do have a red grizzle hen but I prefer to use a blue this way if I get a hint of red in the primaries I feel that would be the indigo. In any event you have given some thing to play around with.* GEORGE


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

george simon said:


> *Hi Matt, The bird is a grizzle and the mom of this bird is grizzle.You said that the cock is a BECKERT, when I was racing I had quite a few BECKERTS and they would throw a dark check youngster every so often that showed a hint of red in the primary flights. I never could figuar it out and at the time I was racing and it was performance and not color that I was intrested.Now that I have become intrested in color I feel that there may be Indigo in the mix here.Check the cock out real close,sometimes a blue check will carry indigo but for some reason it is hard to see, I currently have a pair of Indigos and it is strong on the hen but very weak on the cock.I hope that I have not confused you.Your post on this bird has so intrigue me so I will use a blue grizzle in my INDIGO project at some time,I do have a red grizzle hen but I prefer to use a blue this way if I get a hint of red in the primaries I feel that would be the indigo. In any event you have given some thing to play around with.* GEORGE


Thanks George I'll be sure to look him over for some sign of red.  But would indigo stop the showing of the bars?


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## loftkeeper10 (Jul 31, 2004)

This looks like a D.Opal this can be expressed in many color varations and patterns . Can pop up any time.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Matt D. said:


> Thanks George I'll be sure to look him over for some sign of red.  But would indigo stop the showing of the bars?


 Hi Matt, No indigo would not stop the showing of the bars however grizzle will hide the bars as the grizzle becomes whiter to the point were they looks like a white bird but in fact it still is a grizzle. That is why some people get a youngster that show color from a pair of what they think are white birds but it is in fact are grizzle that has lost color and looks white.White grizzles have yellow/red eyes while a true white bird has a bull eye... GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

So we know this is a grizzle, but have we decided yet what else this bird has in it to make it look the way it does?
Is that 'red' on the shields caused by bronze? I've had a lot of grizzles similar to this, with a little red in the wings. Most of them moulted it out though  Matt's still has a lot of it in the flights too (can't really tell from the newest pictures he posted though). I think it'd be good if you showed everyone pictures of it now with it's wings spread, Matt.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*What are the parents again?*



Matt D. said:


> Okay, But... Dad's a BC and mom is genetically a BB. She has the same thing going as this bird does along with a few of its siblings. I know mom's a BB because both its parents were BB, and there is not barless in this family. So If I'm right that would make it impossible for these birds to be T-pattern. Thanks for you reply.


I thought you said mom looks like the son. If so, not blue bar. Can you be 100% certain of mom's parents? If not bred in individual pens, you will get 15% to 20% infidelity and some YB mysteries.

Anyway, the bronze is coming from somewhere. Do mom or dad have it? Did her parents have it or his?

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It does look similar to opal*



loftkeeper10 said:


> This looks like a D.Opal this can be expressed in many color varations and patterns . Can pop up any time.



But I don't think it is. Dominant opal has to be in one of the parents. Visual dominant opals are heterozygous. Homozygous dominant opals don't live due to a lethal gene associated with dominant opal.

There is also recessive opal in homers and it could pop up but I don't think the birds stay that dark with opal. Not sure though.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Matt D. said:


> Okay, But... Dad's a BC and mom is genetically a BB. She has the same thing going as this bird does along with a few of its siblings. I know mom's a BB because both its parents were BB, and there is not barless in this family. So If I'm right that would make it impossible for these birds to be T-pattern. Thanks for you reply.


 Hi MATT, I believe that one of your blue bars may infact be a very nice blue grizzle so the mother of this bird could be a blue grizzle,and one of her parents is also a blue grizzle.I have seen blue grizzles that some race guys called blue bar,these birds were all very attractive birds. The mating of a grizzle to a blue bar produces some very attractive blue grizzle that carry bars. If you still have the grand parents of this bird check them out I feel that one of them may be a blue grizzle.  .........GEORGE


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> So we know this is a grizzle, but have we decided yet what else this bird has in it to make it look the way it does?
> Is that 'red' on the shields caused by bronze? I've had a lot of grizzles similar to this, with a little red in the wings. Most of them moulted it out though  Matt's still has a lot of it in the flights too (can't really tell from the newest pictures he posted though). I think it'd be good if you showed everyone pictures of it now with it's wings spread, Matt.


Okay, I went out and took 3 new pictures of this bird for you.  So these are today's pictures. 
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TZmJzmbUidLzsFMM2x4QEw
http://picasaweb.google.com/thecrazypigeonman/YoungBirdTeam#5267943475174219426
http://picasaweb.google.com/thecrazypigeonman/YoungBirdTeam#5267943400766980434

When i took this bird from the nest I expected a lot of the color to fall out after the first two molts... but its had two and it still looks the same (I think the color has actually intensified if anything.) I originally thought, also, that it was a homozygous grizzle because of the darkening of the tips of the flights and the light color of the rest of the shield. But I know this isn't so because dad has no grizzle on him.

George, I do know of the heterozygous kind of blue bars that you're talking about. I think of the barcelona grizzle family when that color comes to mind. and the parents as far as I can remember are just straight blue bars. But I will check them over too. Becky told me that if it was indigo that the tail bar would lighten up, and the tail bar is just as dark as all of my blue bars and chequers. 

I can be sure about the mom's parentage because she was bred in a I.B.P. so there wasn't anything funny going on there. 

I do know our family will throw a good bronze every now and again but its not as frequent as it used to be and now they seem to molt it all out after one or two tries. That is what I originally thought was bronze in the mix somewhere. I've looked into that and no bronze that I can see. Is bronze dominant or recessive?

I hope I got everyone, If I didn't, Say something and I'll answer your question.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Most of the bronzes are dominant*

They are dominant to an extent, and they often tend to decrease over successive breeding to non bronzes.

This bird almost has whatever genes make up a pheasant pigeon and I've been unsuccessful in finding out what all makes them up.

I understand what you are saying about blue bar and barless and that you can't go up from either one. I'm pretty sure this bird is neither.

I still would not rule out indigo. It is quite prevalent in homers and normally carries alot of bronze coloration with it. The fact that it has a tail bar means something but I'm not sure what, other than a blue base. George has alot more experience with indigo than I have. I'm just beginning to play with it.

The bronze in indigo is not one of the 8 or so recognized bronzes but I've said before that I think it should be. I also think the opals should be included in the bronze list as well as frill stencil.

Anyway, this bird is very possibly blue, indigo, grizzle (which one, I don't know) and I don't know which pattern but it looks t pattern to me.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Tiger Grizzle*

*Hi MATT,The bird is grizzle that is hiding the T pattern (Ct),which it recieved from the father. We know that this bird molted out the black in the head and neck area. At this point I would like to quote from Axel Sell's book "The Ct young are grizzle but after the molt become TIGERED or heavily white, EXCEPT FOR THE TAIL". This has happend with this bird.The intresting thing here is that this birds wing shields have not changed and still show a hint of red which I still believe is INDIGO.I also must point out that the pattern that the grizzle is hiding is checker as checker is dominant over bar. In any event you have a tiger grizzle.I feel that this bird would make a very intresting genetic study in the hands of a genetic expert like FRANK. I hope that FRANK will make will make some comments on this bird.* GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I agree George*

The bird looks t pattern, grizzle, blue and indigo. It would be nice to get Frank's take on it. Do we have pics of mom or dad?

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

This definitely is a bird that I'd like to see both pics of the mom and dad and also some of its young. Right off the bat, it's an extremely attractive bird and I'm not quite sure what's in there. i'm going to take some time later on and go back thru the whole thread to catch up.

If it flies as well as it looks this is a REAL winner.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

george simon said:


> *Hi Matt, The bird is a grizzle and the mom of this bird is grizzle.You said that the cock is a BECKERT, when I was racing I had quite a few BECKERTS and they would throw a dark check youngster every so often that showed a hint of red in the primary flights. I never could figuar it out and at the time I was racing and it was performance and not color that I was intrested.Now that I have become intrested in color I feel that there may be Indigo in the mix here.Check the cock out real close,sometimes a blue check will carry indigo but for some reason it is hard to see, I currently have a pair of Indigos and it is strong on the hen but very weak on the cock.I hope that I have not confused you.Your post on this bird has so intrigue me so I will use a blue grizzle in my INDIGO project at some time,I do have a red grizzle hen but I prefer to use a blue this way if I get a hint of red in the primaries I feel that would be the indigo. In any event you have given some thing to play around with.* GEORGE


 Yesterday I was up at Jedds and spoke to GREG McKNIGHT, Greg has raised Waterhouse Beckerts for about 30 years. I asked him if he ever seen a hint of red in the primarys of the dark check. He said that he has seen this at various times,he seemed to think that it was a throw back to a red bird used in the Beckert family.I realy don,t believe thats the case. .GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*

I don't think it has anything to do with red either. It looks to be some type of bronze or indigo. I have been thinking about this bird and now wonder if it could be just check pattern but altered by some other genetics, bronze, indigo, grizzle and ?.

I have a reduced indigo check hen and her look is similar to this but does not have grizzle. She is lighter of course but no white because no grizzle. Just makes me wonder if the bird could actually be check pattern though as the owner was pretty sure there is no t pattern in the family.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Bill, I realy wish that when people post a picture of a young bird asking what color,that they would also post a picture of the birds parents,that would help in trying to determine what the young bird is.I know that you and I have asked many times for a picture of the parents, and we don't always get one.* GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Yeah, I know*

But I have trouble posting more than one pic at a time and probably other people do too. I have to jump through a bunch of hoops and delete brackets and duplicate data to even post one pic. I have no idea why this is. I think you have had some trouble with pics too and I've heard others express this as well.

Anyway, people don't understand how important the parents and grandparents are to the breeding of pigeons. They just put up a pic and ask "whatizzit?". I still enjoy trying to figure them out and sometimes have to laugh at how wrong I can be.

That's the amazing thing about pigeons, we can study this for our entire lives and never have it completely figured out.

Bill


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