# Brainstorming advice needed re: PMV in flock



## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Here is what we know.....of 35 or so young Kings that were collected in San Francisco several passed pretty quickly with no diagnosis. Elizabeth took a bunch more. She has lost one I think from unknown causes...(I will ask her to fill in any gaps in info here so we get the best advice possible.) Others of the original group remain in San Francisco.

16 or so were sent to me for observation and transfer to a loft in Malibu. After three weeks, with no symptoms or loss, 11 or so were taken to Malibu. In the week after that transfer, I have lost two. Friday afternoon Malibu lost one and then another today (Sunday). Of the remaining 9 birds in Malibu they have removed 5 and they are on route to PT member Terry W. for observation and diagnosis and treatment....4 birds could not be caught and remain in the Malibu aviary. One body is schedule for a necroscopy (sp) hopefully tomorrow. 

After descriptions, Terry is suggesting PMV....but my losses had no classic PMV symptoms. In fact I was pretty sure one of mine had canker, caught too late.(my fault  ) 

The Malibu loft is unique...trust me...UNIQUE. The dimensions make it impossible to catch and treat all of the birds, making vaccinations or pills impossible. 

What general steps can Jane (at Malibu) take to minimize loss when individual birds cannot be treated?

She has scraped and scrubbed everything with bleach, removed the birds she could for Terry to treat and hopefully diagnose...but there are 4 kings and over 40 or so homers left in the aviary....

Basically, what can she add to the water or the food to minimize losses?

I have been laboring under the impression that many of the rescued birds were so compromised by stress, immaturity and starvation that they were susceptible to pathogens that a strong healthy bird would fend off....that losses were sad but inevitable....which does not mean we are not trying everything we can to save those we can...

Jane has spent most of the day cleaning, trapping and driving to save the kings she took on in an effort to rescue them from their circumstances in San Francisco...she is an angel! But now she needs our help....and I am running out of ideas.

Yes, Elizabeth and I could have quarantined the birds longer...but except for two early losses, mine remain healthy after 5 weeks so not sure that would have made any difference. 

Sound off.... what *now* can Jane do to fortify the flock in her care? (almost like treating a feral colony....)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kippermom said:


> Here is what we know.....of 35 or so young Kings that were collected in San Francisco several passed pretty quickly with no diagnosis. Elizabeth took a bunch more. She has lost one I think from unknown causes...(I will ask her to fill in any gaps in info here so we get the best advice possible.) Others of the original group remain in San Francisco.
> 
> 16 or so were sent to me for observation and transfer to a loft in Malibu. After three weeks, with no symptoms or loss, 11 or so were taken to Malibu. In the week after that transfer, I have lost two. Friday afternoon Malibu lost one and then another today (Sunday). Of the remaining 9 birds in Malibu they have removed 5 and they are on route to PT member Terry W. for observation and diagnosis and treatment....4 birds could not be caught and remain in the Malibu aviary. One body is schedule for a necroscopy (sp) hopefully tomorrow.
> 
> ...


What are the symptoms?
Hopefully the necroscopy will be telling and you will know what you need to treat for. I think you need to wait for the results.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jane should be here in the next little bit with the Malibu birds. My first thought was actually Salmonellosis, then egg binding for the one that died today (jury still out on that). Then Jane told me that there was extreme head and neck twisting when the first ill one was caught today. That is pretty much classic PMV .. extreme stress (from being caught) resulting in the PMV symptoms of head/neck torticollis.

It's my understanding that one of the deaths was due to canker, but I am not sure that this is/was the case .. just something that came across in conversation about these birds.

As I told Jane on the phone, everybody involved in this acted in good faith and took good precautions .. sometimes stuff just happens and we have to deal with it.

Hopefully I will have some further input for everyone once the birds get here.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I just called Firstimer .. no longer active here but was for a long time .. she is going to get back to me with the vet info for a vet we might use in your area. Sorry that my tired old brain can't resurrect more than Dr. Tamara .. anyway Firstimer will be back to me shortly. Hopefully this Dr. Tamara can do a necropsy and come up with a diagnosis. There is a very competent and well known avian vet here in my city, but there is no possible way that we can afford his services .. it would be about $500 to walk in the door and then another $1500 or more to get to the end of the story. I can't afford this and to my knowledge neither can anyone else involved.

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How about sending the body to a veterinary college? Isn't there one in Davis?
Also, there are competent vets that don't charge as much as the one you are referring to in your city, Terry. It sounds like you have had a horrible experience or two and that is a shame.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Charis...the first one I had was just fluffed, gone light, stopped eating...nothing visible in the throat, no respiratory issues, poops were very watery, olive green...I hand fed so the bird did not starve, poops improved, treated with a 4 in 1 for lack of anything better...jswitched to Baytril after 4 days of no improvement...then he just laid down and died before my very eyes....no neuro symptoms or head twisting or stargazing etc.....

The second bird was a few days later, went very fast...small yellow placque in the throat, started meds but the bird passed within 24 hours, again with no neuro symptoms that I would usually equate to PMV...but I defer to Terry. She should have the other birds in her possession and has more experience with more conditions than I will ever have! 

My fear is that the birds came from different places in different conditions and we may have multiple diagnosis as their general poor condition made them susceptible to different illnesses....and since there might not be the $$ for the necropsy, PT brainstorming may be the best we can do....(and a better chance than had the birds been left to their fate in the parks of San Francisco (doggy dinners) or the shelter there (euthanasia)...) 

I have just put in a stock of several often used meds so if Terry makes a preliminary diagnosis I can help treat any individual birds we catch..but the challenge now is *the flock treatment to save as many as we can of the rest that we cannot catch. (45+ birds total)*
p.s. the birds in my cages still show no symptoms. At least two of them shared cages with the ones that passed away....


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Birds Are Here - 5 Of Them + 1*

Jane and her husband just dropped off 5 of the King pigeons from Malibu plus 1 stray picked up along the way.

There is no sign of canker in any of the 5 Malibu birds. 3 of them appear to be in decent to good health .. two are not doing well and one of those those two I don't imagine will be with us in the morning. It's emaciated, very weak, but still no sign of canker and no PMV symptoms.

I'm now back to thinking salmonellosis or some other bacterial thing.

I've got the critical care one on heat and all have had a dose of Cipro (Baytril). We'll see where we are in the AM.

The stray pigeon that hooked a ride is also extremely emaciated with a crop full of nasty fluid. I've milked the crop and put this one on heat also for the night with a dose of Nystatin. We'll see where we are tomorrow .. possibly not anywhere good.

It's been a really long day here and not a particularly good one for birds in So Cal, so I'm going to finish reading a few posts and head for bed. Gotta get to work tomorrow with heaven knows how many little bird babies in tow.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Charis said:


> Also, there are competent vets that don't charge as much as the one you are referring to in your city, Terry. It sounds like you have had a horrible experience or two and that is a shame.


Well, that's certainly true, Charis. BUT, if you know how to get some of these birds taken care of by the So Cal avian vets at a reasonable cost, you sure need to let us know how. I can get the birds to competent vets and at a semi-reasonable price, but they aren't avian vets. When you all here are going on about avian vets and getting birds to them, you have no freaking clue what that really costs here in So Cal or Florida or New York or any other state with a big population. 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Charis said:


> How about sending the body to a veterinary college? Isn't there one in Davis?


Yes, there is an excellent vet college at UC Davis. Sadly, it will be way too late for all these birds by the time the results would be back.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

kippermom said:


> *The second bird was a few days later, went very fast...small yellow placque in the throat*, started meds but the bird passed within 24 hours,


I am so sorry to hear about what's happening, Kippermom. 



TAWhatley said:


> Jane and her husband just dropped off 5 of the King pigeons from Malibu plus 1 stray picked up along the way.
> 
> *There is no sign of canker in any of the 5 Malibu birds. *
> 
> Terry


Terry,
It does sound like there are probably several things going on. 
I certainly wouldn't r/o canker as on of them. 
As we all know, and have discussed, canker isn't always visible. 
Canker that's internal would definitely be on my 'Thought to Ponder' list as at least one of the cuplrits. JMO

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Charis said:


> How about sending the body to a veterinary college? Isn't there one in Davis?
> Also, there are competent vets that don't charge as much as the one you are referring to in your city, Terry. It sounds like you have had a horrible experience or two and that is a shame.





TAWhatley said:


> Well, that's certainly true, *Charis. BUT, if you know how to get some of these birds taken care of by the So Cal *avian *vets at a reasonable cost, you sure need to let us know how*. I can get the birds to competent vets and at a semi-reasonable price, but they aren't avian vets. When you all here are going on about avian vets and getting birds to them, you have no freaking clue what that really costs here in So Cal or Florida or New York or any other state with a big population.
> 
> Terry


Actually, I don't think I ever said any thing about taking the the birds to a Avian vet. In this case, I wasn't talking about taking the birds to a vet at all. I was talking about taking one of the Pigeons that had died for a necropsy.

I have always told members that they can take a sick Pigeon to any vet that is experienced and comfortable and willing to treat them. Sometimes that's an avian vet and sometimes it isn't.

I don't want members to get incorrect information about vet costs because of some bad experiences. Example...mydoggrommer...had a bird with a broken wing on July 2nd. She was dissuaded from going to see a vet and told the costs would be upward on $5000. She just freaked at the costs which is understandable. *I called around and spoke to vets in her city, which happens to be San Diego, and found an avian vet that was willing to see the bird and wrap the wing for $59.00. *Of course she could have x-rays and more had she chose. She chose not to go at all. She was given incorrect information based upon a bad experience and the one that lost the benefit of veterinary care for that incorrect information, was the poor little Pigeon.
This account was via email.

When we take our animal/bird to a vet, we are in control. We can ask for an estimate of cost before and treatment has been given. We can go over the costs and decide just what things are necessary. Often vets will negotiate depending upon the circumstances and the way in which the individuals situation is presented.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I would have additional concerns about these poor King pigeons. What about Circo virus or Herpes virus? I don't know much about them, but from what I've read they can both cause general unwellness and lots of secondary infections, making the birds unable to fight off canker, etc. This to me would be a major concern. Unfortunately I've heard it's difficult and expensive to diagnose.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote by Birdmomforever...

*Unfortunately I've heard it's difficult and expensive to diagnose.*

Would you please verify the costs so we can see how they vary from region to region? Also this would give us concrete information rather than hearsay.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Whatever it is, I would boost their immune system first, treat water in the aviary with bleach or Vircon, place more feeders to spread birds and reduce contact and divide birds as much as possible (improvised curtains or whatever). In a big loft, during the night birds are easier to catch with torchlight.
Good luck, I wish I could help more.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Charis said:


> Quote by Birdmomforever...
> 
> *Unfortunately I've heard it's difficult and expensive to diagnose.*
> 
> Would you please verify the costs so we can see how they vary from region to region? Also this would give us concrete information rather than hearsay.


I have no idea how I would do that, since I've never dealt with it myself. My primary reason for posting was to give a heads-up to people involved with these birds as to another possible cause of a lot of sickness. A standard 4-week quarantine would probably not catch those viruses and rescuers/rehabbers need to be aware of them so they don't infect their other pigeons.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here (VA) comprehensive viral screen, is around $58,00.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

kippermom said:


> *One body is schedule for a necroscopy (sp) hopefully tomorrow*.


Is this a definite scheduled event or one that's in the works? 

Cindy


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Trying to find a local place to do it.....

Because we do not yet have a definitive diagnosis we are hesitant to start treating and we are concerned that stress might drive others to the brink...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I e-mailed the vet info to all the involved parties a bit ago. Hopefully this vet can do the necropsy at a reasonable price.

Yoko Tamura, 
Clinic Name: Capri Plaza Pet Clinic
Address: 19582 Ventura Blvd
City/State: Tarzana, CA 91356
Map: Google Map
P: (818)881-6344
F: (818)881-4384
Email: [email protected]

Charis, I apologize! I really didn't mean to snap at you like I did last night. You caught the brunt of a very long and trying day. Your find in San Diego was an excellent one in terms of cost of visit and treatment.

Terry


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

advanced necropsy being done tonight....big questions in the interim..

(1) should we start baytril in the water for the remaining flock or wait for a diagnosis? Is there a potential harm if the diagnosis is PMV or something else? All the birds remaining in the aviary seem fine today per the groundskeeper there...even the 4 SF kings were flying around...and; 

(2) should the 4 kings still be removed or is the stress of grabbing them (if we can) doing more harm than good if the illness is stress related?


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Sorry to come in with a question of my own, but I've got one of the kings in my house. I've just done the normal quarantine procedure, my bird is coughing occasionally (so is on Doxycycline) and has watery stringy poops some of the time. I'm concerned about my new bird and especially my other pet pigeons.

Does anybody know the incubation period for PMV beyond "several weeks"? I've tried to look it up on multiple websites without luck.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I believe that IF it is PMV (very big IF), the period is 6 weeks.... but neuro symptoms can return with stress etc....diagnosis of this problem is still pending...all 4 of my birds from the same batch appear healthy, knock on wood...and Terry has not seen PMV symptoms with the ones in her care....I would keep yours in quarantine until we sort this out.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*update*

vet is calling this evening with a result of necropsy...then we may have a better idea what to treat and how to treat...and Terry will have a chance to look at her birds again. Mine are still shoowing no symptoms of anything at all...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Another Has Died ..*

Of the two birds that Jane had correctly identified as being quite ill, the emaciated one died during the day today. The survivor of those two is now showing significant head and neck twisting. I sure hope we have some clues this evening from the necropsy. The other three are still not showing any signs of illness and are eating and drinking well.

Kippermom, will you be getting the call from the vet or will Jane? Whoever gets the info, please do call me ASAP.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Gross Necropsy Is In ..*

The person reporting the necropsy results had this to say. I've italicized the comment and then given my post. Any help, input, info will be greatly appreciated.

Terry
-----------------------------------------------------
_1. She is leaning toward west nile since incubation is three weeks and it is "only" the SF birds getting sick and dying._ 

Highly unlikely IMO .. corvids are extremely susceptible to WNV but pigeons, even if carrying the virus, almost never show any symptoms or have a problem from WNV .. there's lots of info about this on the web.

_2. She thinks it is likely some kind of viral or bacterial infection_.

Yep .. almost certainly one or the other .. (tongue in cheek here) .. We just need to know what it is.

_3. Could be samaonellisis (I asked her about this) but that usually shows some lesions on intestines and there were not any._

The lack of lesions is a good thing to know, but I'm still staying in the paratyphoid (salmonellosis) corner and treating with enrofloxacin (Baytril/Cipro). If you found any rat/mouse droppings in the loft then salmonellosis just moved to the head of the class. I also had a post from a Pigeon-Talk member today about a big die off of Southeast Coast birds due to Salmonellosis of this type: SALMONELLA SEROGROUP B

_4. Could be PMV (I asked about this) but again unsure._

PMV isn't fatal to pigeons .. it's just the symptoms of the virus that cause them to get dead .. unable to eat, stand, or fly normally. They either get picked off by predators or starve to death in the wild. In our situation, there should be no reason to lose any of these birds if it's PMV as long as the birds are getting the care needed. That means we gotta catch them all and care for them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm very sorry to say this, but I think we are going to lose all or most of these King pigeons and in very short order. If it's PMV then good supportive care (hand feeding, keeping things super clean, and minimizing stress) will save the day. If it's something else that we're fighting, then we pretty much don't have a chance without knowing what the "enemy" is. I guess we DO know at this point that it isn't canker. If canker were present, the vet would have found it on necropsy.

There are other nasties like Circovirus and Adenovirus that take a terrible toll on young birds. The "baby" peeping and squeaking of these that are here is breaking my heart .. they really are just babies ..

I would suggest that we all have a careful look at the Chevita site looking at symptoms and the causes and the treatments and see if we can come up with some other possible causes. 

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php

Like I said, I'm doing enrofloxacin, tube feeding the survivor of the two that were bad off, and watching the other three like a loving hawk Mom.

I'm really hoping for the best here, but I think we're in for a lot of heartbreak.

Terry


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Alright folks...I have separately isolated the last 2 of the SF Kings in my care. One is showing bright green watery poops. Neither is showing weight loss or any other symptoms yet. The lab tests on the necropsy are a week away...in the interim we need to do the best we can for the exposed birds that remain in our care.

Jane has 45 or more birds in the loft with the Kings who becamse ill. We are trying to get the last 4 out...what is recommended as a loft treatment , as a preventative or to address an unknown bacterial or viral infection? In a perfect world we would not treat until we had a diagnosis...but this is not a perfect world and we have to go with the best info we have and the best minds available even if it seems risky.

I propose baytril in the water for the whole aviary....7 to 10 days...does anybody have a better idea? Will baytril hurt healthy birds?

Jane has done a thorough cleaning...removed as many as could be caught..added ACV to the water...we will try to get the last 4 out...but then what???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Have seen things like this. I probably had the best luck with a combination of Doxycycline, Medistatin and Tylosin, specifically dosed for the bird in question. Have also treated concurrently with Baytril. I think heat is bad or very hard on these guys so I've always kept them in the house in the air conditioning. You CANNOT feed them very much without killing them in a lot of cases because they're often too weak to digest much and convert it into energy. That said, I usually only give them small meals (one or two teaspoons of dry Kaytee, heavy on the water).

I've started suspecting that some of these cases include mycoplasmosis, which doesn't generally cause primary illness in pigeons--it just complicates other diseases. That's why I've started using the Tylosin. While I don't have verification of that belief, I was treating one with a very chronic respiratory cough that didn't go away even after a long Dox/Baytril treatment UNTIL I added the Tylosin (Tylan) and gave it a little more time. Take it for what it's worth.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I should add that if, after a day or two, I see solids coming out in the poops and the patient's general condition appearing to stabilize, I start increasing the amount of feedings slowly.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the posts, Pidgey. That's an interesting combination of meds you posted about. I'm not really seeing much improvement with the Cipro, but the bird doesn't appear to be any worse off either. Do you think we should try this combo on these birds?

Terry


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## cats6birds4 (Oct 4, 2003)

There is a really great avian vet in Calabasas. 

Atilla Molnar, DVM
All Animals Medical Center
23815 Ventura Blvd.
Calabasas, CA 91302


Chlamydia is also a possibility, although I don't know that it would present with head twisting. I'm sorry you all are having to go through all this, I hope you can find out soon what the cause is and hopefully can save the rest. 

Beth


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I probably would. I've seen a few die like that even on Baytril for a few days. They just slip away and go to sleep. If it were only Chlamydophila (the new name), Baytril would clear the symptoms but not the carrier state (so they say). All I guess I'm saying is that without knowing exactly what it is, a shotgun approach ain't a bad idea. Think of Brad's Henny... An alpha-hemolytic Strep that wasn't touched by Baytril.

Pidgey


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

No diagnosis from the vet though she prescribed something to treat the water for the flock....I have put the three in my care on baytril....but none of them really have the same symptoms. Two are eating alright andf ar carrying a decent weight, but have very watery poops with bvright green bile...one is very thin....it's like we have a list of what this is NOT (no upper respiratory or sinus, no canker)...but not much else. I guess we will all have to treat and support the symptoms we see the best we can and let nature take its course.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks Beth and Pidgey for your posts. I'll get started on the combo cocktail tomorrow for the one I have that is in bad shape. The head/neck twisting is now very extreme. Part of it is being brought on by the stress of being handled for meds and feeding .. very severe episodes for a few minutes before and after. But, overall, the severity of the torticollis is now worse than on arrival. Fortunately the other three still appear to be fine.

Terry


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

The three in my hospital are holding their own on baytril....I haver stopped hand feeding due to the stress and the fact that I think they are eating a bit on their own. I think we were cautioned about overfeeding and causing undue stress so I am erring on the side of hoping the baytril helps them FELL like eating on their own. No neuro symptoms here at all...just watery green poops which frankly have improved in the last 24 hours a bit.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I am so, so sorry this is happening.  After all the effort, energy and love put into getting them to their new homes, for this devastating illness to cause all this is so unfair. I don't have any advice but you caretakers and birds will be in my thoughts and prayers.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*update*

No more losses reported...the three ill ones in my care are hanging tough. Two have shown improvement on baytril, the third has started eating on her own and still looks depressed but is also still here!...which in itself is a good sign. Two others exposed to the sick Kings are still symptom free on preventative meds.

No more birds showing symptoms at the Malibu loft and I believe Terry has noted improvemnent in at least two of hers there.

Condition..."guarded optimism"


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

My bird is fine too aside from the coughing and watery poops. I talked with fp and will keep my bird on Baytril for 3 weeks to really clear the paratyphoid.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

First part of necropsy tests are back...."bacterial encephalitis"....should be treatable with antibiotics, but not sure which ones??? The balance of the test results are pending...and this is of course ony the results of this one bird...but it would explain why we are seeing neuro symptoms on some...brain swelling etc...

So..the antibiotic cocktail makes sense...it IS contagious but we already assumed that!

Other ideas???


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Interesting...*

I found this in one of those Google search thingeys, while looking for antibiotics to treat it with...

Many forms of encephalitis are spread by the *bites of insects or animals.* Mosquitoes are common carriers of encephalitis viruses. They carry the viruses in their blood and saliva. ... 
The virus multiplies and spreads throughout the body. When it reaches the brain, it may cause encephalitis.

Dogs, cats, *mice,* raccoons, squirrels, and bats are also carriers of encephalitis viruses. These animals also carry the virus in their blood and saliva.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> I found this in one of those Google search thingeys, while looking for antibiotics to treat it with...
> 
> Many forms of encephalitis are spread by the *bites of insects or animals.* Mosquitoes are common carriers of encephalitis viruses. They carry the viruses in their blood and saliva. ...
> The virus multiplies and spreads throughout the body. When it reaches the brain, it may cause encephalitis.
> ...


Great find, Charis. 

I don't recall ever reading where encephalitis has been mentioned as a possible illness found in pigeons. 
Given your findings, it certainly puts things into perspective as a 'thought to ponder' though, for future reference.

Cindy


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

clindamycin, is what the vet here said she would use on bac encephalitis.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I believe I saw somewhere (may have been on CDC site one time) that birds can get something called 'equine encephalitis' - but not familiar with it at all. Sounds a little strange, unless it's an infection carried by insects that can affect horses and birds?.

John


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

John_D said:


> I believe I saw somewhere (may have been on CDC site one time) that birds can get something called 'equine encephalitis' - but not familiar with it at all. Sounds a little strange, unless it's an infection carried by insects that can affect horses and birds?.
> 
> John


carried by mosquitos, my horses have to be vaxed for it. not sure if it is the same as any bac encephalitis. good question.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Encephalitis is a VERY general term, it just means you have an infection/virus that has spread to the head. I agree with Feralpigeon in that the symptoms we are both seeing in our kings is due to paratyphoid. I am in the process of having a culture and sensitivity done on two of my birds, and I will let you know the results as soon as I have them. In the meantime I will be treating with baytril for four weeks.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Starting week two on baytril and my SF Kings from the same batch are holding their own and eating by themselves...fingers crossed.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm holding tight on Baytril (Cipro actually) also as I felt that this was extreme salmonellosis. Hopefully we will eventually find out. My three that appeared well still appear well. The ill one kind of bounces back and forth between seeming to be OK to severe head/neck twisting. Hopefully there will be a real stabilization of this one bird soon.

Terry


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I got my culture and sensitivity back, the 2 birds that appear to have come down with what my king has tested positive for E. coli (this strain is sensitive to everything, even genemycin!). I am quite sure that my king has it and not paratyphoid at this point. At this point I'll treat my birds for 2 weeks on Baytril, and see how that goes.

That doesn't mean that all of the kings have E. coli, but E. coli can mimic the symptoms of paratyphoid and PMV1. Fortunately E. coli is much easier to get rid of.

http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/if_article_e_coli_higgins.html
http://www.albertaclassic.net/chalmers1.php 
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drdavidmarx/ecoli.cfm

I think that the next time we have something like this happen it would make a whole lot of sense to have a culture and sensitivity done on a symptomatic bird in lieu of a necropsy.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Very interesting. I did not realize e-coli could be so severe and even mimic the symptoms of other diseases. The news is encouraging since it's treatable.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Yeah, all it takes is some nitwit raising the birds for money who takes no notice of what is going on in the loft. After all the kings were being raised for food, so why bother treating the birds when it's soooo much easier to dump the sick birds in a park. I think that's what happened, too many of the birds were really sick for it to be a "release".


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

JGregg said:


> Yeah, all it takes is some nitwit raising the birds for money who takes no notice of what is going on in the loft. After all the kings were being raised for food, so why bother treating the birds when it's soooo much easier to dump the sick birds in a park. I think that's what happened, too many of the birds were really sick for it to be a "release".


I think you're exactly right.


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## Elizabethy (Sep 25, 2007)

To the best of my knowledge, the birds were purchased by a Buddhist monk(s) and released in the park to spare their lives.

15 were already dead when ACOs picked up the 35 survivors.

They joined 7 that were already at SF ACC.

Of the 26 that didn't go to Southern Cal, there was Pink, who died with me, 5 that were euthanized at SFACC for being sick with no one to take them in and 2 euthanized at Marin Humane Society (one for being fluffed and inactive, the other for having crusty eyes and being picked on). 

2 are with JGregg & FeralPigeon, 2 placed by me (no signs of illness), 6 were placed by Marin Humane Society and 8 (adults only) were sent to Coyote Joe and arrived on Wed. None showed any signs of illness when I shipped them on Monday.

Aside from those- I've taken in 3 PMV birds in the past couple of months and there have been several other kings euthanized in shelters in July because they were sick with no place to go. There are 3 more at SFACC right now.

Feral Pigeon referred somebody to me who had collected 6 kings "released" at a funeral a month ago and after having them for 3 weeks, 5 died in one week.

It's been a really tough pigeon time.

I'm so sorry that you all are going through so much.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

> To the best of my knowledge, the birds were purchased by a Buddhist monk(s) and released in the park to spare their lives.


Someone said:
"Hell is paved with good intentions."


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, the So Cal update is this .. another of mine died .. I had four .. that leaves me three. The one that died was the thinnest of the three not showing any signs. The one with severe head/neck twisting is still alive. One of the other two is now head and neck twisting and the other appears to be fine. We're in very deep doodoo here with these birds. The ones in Malibu have been on SMZ and mine have been on Cipro. Doesn't appear that either drug is getting it. Another bird in Malibu died today .. not one of the Kings but a bird that had been in that aviary for a good while. The worry is that the Kings that were in that aviary spread whatever it is that they have .. it is salmonellosis to the best of our knowledge, but it isn't responding to the "normal" drugs. We could be in very big trouble here in that aviary in Malibu .. there are lots and lots of birds there.

Terry


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Can it be that it is not only Salmonellosis, but several things?


> Upon appearance of the symptoms described, treatment with chloramphenicol-N should be started immediately. In some cases it is necessary to change the treatment (e.g. to ampicillin-t) when the results of the bacteriological examination and antibiogram become available.
> Other antibiotics:
> Kanamycin: Dosage: .01 mgl to one gram of body weight intramuscularly twice daily.
> Gentamycin: Dosage: .01 mg to one gram of body weight intramuscularly once daily or 25 mg. to 120 ml of drinking water orally.
> ...


Hope this helps a bit.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

This is all so sad.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I got some more information on my cultures over the weekend, the E. coli my bird has is moderately sensitive to baytril (part of the reason it isn't working), and resistant to amoxicilin. I don't think that medicating the water works that well (though it's the only thing you can do when you have lots of birds), I'm moving to medicating my birds individually. Currently I'm leaning towards TMS.

Truthfully any bacterial infection can mimic PMV1 or paratyphoid, the best way to determine what you have is by a culture and sensitivity. Once again I'm not saying that the other birds have E.coli, without testing you just can't tell. I would strongly suggest having a culture done on one of the symptomatic birds in Malibu (not on antibiotics) for the good of the other birds in the facility.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

JGregg said:


> I got some more information on my cultures over the weekend, the E. coli my bird has is moderately sensitive to baytril (part of the reason it isn't working), and resistant to amoxicilin. I don't think that medicating the water works that well (though it's the only thing you can do when you have lots of birds), I'm moving to medicating my birds individually. Currently I'm leaning towards TMS.
> 
> Truthfully any bacterial infection can mimic PMV1 or paratyphoid, the best way to determine what you have is by a culture and sensitivity. Once again I'm not saying that the other birds have E.coli, without testing you just can't tell. I would strongly suggest having a culture done on one of the symptomatic birds in Malibu (not on antibiotics) for the good of the other birds in the facility.


*Currently I'm leaning towards TMS*. ?


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Veterinary abbreviation for trimethoprim sulfa.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

JGregg said:


> Veterinary abbreviation for trimethoprim sulfa.


Thank you. Most wouldn't know what that means. I googled it and it came up as some kind of camp for troubled teens.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Another One Showing Signs ..*

I just received another King pigeon from the Malibu aviary. Jane was up there cleaning and disinfecting and noticed that the bird was head and neck twisting. She caught the bird and dropped it off to me just a bit ago. She has really been a trooper about trying to help these birds and seeing that the loft/aviary hygiene in Malibu is top notch. 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Meet One Of The Malibu Pigeons*

This is the "healthiest" one that I have. He is a delightful and playful youngster .. almost like a puppy.










Terry


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

One of my survivors has exhibited head twisting after two full weeks on baytril...on hand I have tetracycline; doxycycline, erythromycin, sulfadimethoxine, ronivet, and BMD (bacitracine methylene disalicylate)..suggestions???


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

FYI...they are eating well and the neck twisting is not severe. As of this moment they are not on ANY meds...not sure what to start them on next...


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

My culture results indicate that the sulpha drugs should be effective.

I talked with a Vet bout what was going on with the shipped Kings, ans it turns out that you may be seeing the results of "shipping fever".


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*More Birds Have Died ..*

While the four that I have are still hanging in there, two are far from well or even showing improvement and two are about the same as they were when I got them in spite of very regimented medication. Something is not right here.

Another one or two birds that were housed in the same aviary with the SF Kings have died, and I suspect there will be more.

The lab results definitely confirmed that the problem was/is salmonella typhimurium copenhagen and that both Baytril and SMZ should be effective treatments.

Terry


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

The brown bird survivor from the San Francisco group is generally recovered from neuro symptoms....he has been on baytril for almost a month and on doxycycline as well for the last week..that combo seems to have knocked out the neuro symptoms...but now I am not sure whether to stop both meds, or just one and if so, which one? And then how do I build back up his resistence , strength etc. ? I am afraid that when I stop the meds, he will relapse, but he cannot live on baytril!


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

This is so sad.. I hope all them recover , It must be really hard on you guys all losing them.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm keeping you all in my thoughts and prayers.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I would try this combo:

http://www.atozvetsupply.com/FISH-CILLIN-Capsules-p/001tlcil.htm

http://www.atozvetsupply.com/Neomycin-Oral-Solution-p/800-aglno.htm

These two meds have a synergistic effect when combined, and the culture and
sensitivity test from JGregg showed two meds from the Aminoglycosides class of antibiotics being very effective against the resistant ecoli strain showing in the culture and sensitivity tests. The two noted meds for treating were Amikacin and Gentamycin from the Aminoglycoside family. Fluoroquinlones and tetracylines were not showing as being as effective in treating the resistant strain.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'd also do a course of raw ACV and probiotics on bird(s) that are holding their
own on other antibiotics but not clearing the disease state before starting a new course of antibiotic therapy.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Sad Update ..*

Two more dead today .. Jane called me around 7 PM tonight and was leaving the aviary in Malibu. She had found one dead in a nest box (not a king but a feral or homer that had been there prior to the arrival of the kings). She also caught up 6 that were showing severe signs .. unable to fly .. walking "wonky" .. then a 7th came up and practically begged to be put in with the 6 she had caught .. a mate to one of them I'm guessing.

Jane got to my place a little after 8 PM with the seven pigeons and one was very near death and has now passed on. So sad that it was the one the mate came along with to "save" .. the mate stood over it and cuddled with it until it died .. totally tears my heart up to have seen this but bless that pigeon for being so devoted to his or her loved one. 

All six of the currently surviving of this group are homers or ferals. Two of them are extremely emaciated and two more are kind of thin.

The four kings I have remain the same .. two with extreme symptoms, one appearing to be totally fine, and the fourth with slight symptoms.

Another bird had died at the aviary (a feral or homer .. I keep saying that cuz they are believed to be homers but none of them are banded and they seem too small to be homers to me ..) and was necropsied. The cause of death was determined to be kidney failure due to extreme dehydration. Apparently the aviary birds were not drinking the medicated water. Plain water has been provided, and hopefully there will be no further losses due to simple but extreme dehydration.

Sooooo .. I now have 10 of these birds .. the 4 Kings and now 6 ferals or homers. I will do my best with them, but I'm not real optimistic at this point.

FP .. thanks for the links and info .. I did read them just now but am too tired to have assimilated very much .. I'll check them carefully tomorrow. I did catch the reference to Amikacin .. a very prominent avian vet here prescribes that for just about everything .. obviously, it's his drug of choice for birds ..

Terry


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I agree with Ferralpigeon they need a break between two courses of antibiotic.
Maybe this can help?
Recently there was mass salmonella poisoning in humans in Pazardjik - Bulgaria. Antibiotic treatment was conducted in conjunction with Propolis and Champa (Michelia champaca, champaka, champak).
I found this document on the net:
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/
/bjm/v37n2/arq02.pdf
Main problem with propolis is what solvent to use though most of them come dissolved in alcohol.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

plamenh said:


> I agree with Ferralpigeon they need a break between two courses of antibiotic.
> Maybe this can help?
> Recently there was mass salmonella poisoning in humans in Pazardjik - Bulgaria. Antibiotic treatment was conducted in conjunction with Propolis and Champa (Michelia champaca, champaka, champak).
> I found this document on the net:
> ...


Thanks for the link and info, Plamenh. I will have a careful look tomorrow. I really appreciate your interest and help with this.

Terry


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Terry just pm'd me to ask me to look at this thread. I have had a sick loft now since April and after treatment with 4 in 1 and then Baytril, as well as treatment for canker and coccidia, then followed by two necropsies it was confirmed that the cause was salmonella. The birds that became ill and died all had varying symptoms. Some went light, some just became ill and died within 24 hours. On consultation with my vet, and based on the C & S results, we flock treated with 
sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim oral suspension 200 mg/ 40 mg per 5 ml. concentration. The dose is 1 1/2 tsp. per liter of H2O and the birds are treated for 14 days, followed by 7 days of a probiotic. So far I haven't had any further new cases. My birds are back to having pretty normal poops. Both lofts were washed down with 10% bleach and all nest bowls and liners changed. If you can get a vet to prescribe this medication, it is about $35 for a pint at the drugstore which is enough to treat about 50 birds for the 14 days. It has better tissue saturation than some of the other antibiotics and is not as hard on the birds. Mine showed no discomfort to the medication at all other than looking slightly offended at the grape smell of their water (the stuff is flavored) and the slightly sweet taste. 

Salmonella is a real bear to get rid of. Some birds can be carriers without showing any symptoms. It can migrate to just about any part of the body, but does usually begin in the bowel. If a bird is showing the head twisting that looks like PMV, you can tell one from the other by startling the bird. If it is PMV, the stargazing or head twisting will increase immediately and dramatically. With salmonella it will not. You should keep the exposed birds isolated for several months to make sure there is not any new illness and obviously do not allow any exposed birds to breed. If any new cases do occur, then the treatment should be repeated. My vet ordered refills of the med for me so that I can do that right away if any birds become symptomatic again.

My heart just breaks reading about all these poor birds who have been and are so ill. Hope this will help in some way. I'm sorry I haven't been on line except briefly for a couple of months now. I would have posted this much sooner. Thanks Terry for alerting me.

Margaret


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Margaret...

My brown survivor (Valor) only responds with neck twising when stressed or startled...indicating PMV....would you still try the SMZ with trimethoprim or ??? He is off all meds after 4 weeks on baytril and also doxy for the last week ... I am trying to build him up before trying any other meds.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

With PMV, bird has characteristic poops differing from salmonella infection and canker. This is how I distinguish PMV from others.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Two more dead today .. Jane called me around 7 PM tonight and was leaving the aviary in Malibu. She had found one dead in a nest box (not a king but a feral or homer that had been there prior to the arrival of the kings). She also caught up 6 that were showing severe signs .. unable to fly .. walking "wonky" .. then a 7th came up and practically begged to be put in with the 6 she had caught .. a mate to one of them I'm guessing.
> 
> Jane got to my place a little after 8 PM with the seven pigeons and one was very near death and has now passed on. So sad that it was the one the mate came along with to "save" .. the mate stood over it and cuddled with it until it died .. totally tears my heart up to have seen this but bless that pigeon for being so devoted to his or her loved one.
> 
> ...


How heartbreaking! And you must be exhausted! My heart goes out to you and the other carers of these poor sick birds.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, it seems that there are more than one diagnosis for the kings, and given 
the culture and sensitivity tests that JGregg had ordered, I posted on the meds. The family of meds with the least resistancy noted were the Aminoglycosides, and the best choice wasn't Amikacin but rather Gentamicin. Neomycin is easily accessible along w/Ampicillin (Fishcillin), for what it's worth.
Ecoli can also cause CNS symptoms, I believe the CNS to be bacterial based.


fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Another of the new arrivals from last night died during the day today. This stuff is just devastating.

Terry


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

kippermom said:


> Margaret...
> 
> My brown survivor (Valor) only responds with neck twising when stressed or startled...indicating PMV....would you still try the SMZ with trimethoprim or ??? He is off all meds after 4 weeks on baytril and also doxy for the last week ... I am trying to build him up before trying any other meds.


Kippermom,

If the neck twisting is the only symptom, and it sounds like PMV from what you describe, I wouldn't give any more meds other than perhaps probiotics at this point. Is he eating and drinking? Are the poops normal? Excuse me if you have already covered this and it did not register with me. I'm too tired tonight to read back through all the posts and not tracking as well as I'd like.

Margaret


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Thanks all....his poops are not great, but he is eating and drinking and perkier....the star gazing/head twisting when stressed is the main symptom and it occurs infrequently. I agree to just try to boister his own system and hold off on any more meds for the time being. Time will tell.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*One More Dead In Malibu ..*

Jane just called .. there is one more dead at the Malibu aviary and another one that has been caught due to extreme symptoms.

I've just suggested to Jane that the birds showing symptoms be caught up and put in carriers/cages .. whatever we can arrange .. and INDIVIDUALLY cared for and treated .. I think this is the only way we are going to save most of the birds there in Malibu.

The one surviving tonight is going to be brought to me at my work tomorrow. I am happy to help with these birds, but I CANNOT take on all 70+ remaining birds there in Malibu. We are going to have to figure out a way to care for most of them there.

THUS .. CALLING ALL SO CAL MEMBERS .. IF YOU CAN HELP IN MALIBU, PLEASE POST BACK HERE SO WE CAN GET ORGANIZED.

Terry


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

If we had an individual treatment plan that was working I would feel better! I will be back in town Sunday night. I have cages where I could keep 6 to 8 birds in pairs... or 4 separately....but then what is the treatment for them? ...frustrated...(but not giving up.)


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I've got a couple ideas on helping the birds.

Take one of the symptomatic birds and have a culture and sensitivity run on it, as I suggested earlier. You can either pay for the culture or pay for it in your time (treating birds with the wrong meds) and the deaths of the birds.

If you decide not to have a culture and sensitivity run then treat the birds with the meds suggested by Feralpigeon. Though it would make lots more sense to have a culture done so you know exactly what you're dealing with.

This whole situation in Malibu shows that it is wise to quarantine birds for 4-6wks before introducing them to others. Perhaps they will choose to observe a quarantine period in the future.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I currently have two birds which exhibit Torticollis (star gazing). One is a PMV survivor who has a bald spot on her head on one side as a result of chronically being in the stargazing position. When she sees me, she will stop star gazing briefly, on and off while I'm in her vicinity. She tends to assume the stargazing position most of her waking life. There is no doubt that she is a PMV survivor, PMV raced through the overpass that she was born into and I brushed away a pigeon fly from her when I was catching her. This was a different overpass from the one that Pigeon Pox raced through a couple of years ago and where I was involved w/a large scale rescue.

My other Torticollis bird star gazes only when stressed out and so fairly infrequently, she is a rescue that had a bacterial infection which caused
the CNS symptoms. Again, her stargazing is far more transient and situation-based than the PMV survivor whose symptoms are displayed most of the time.

I'm repeating myself when I say that I believe the Torticollis being displayed by Kippermom's bird to be from a bacterial infection. My opining is based on personal experience and information gleaned from both anecdotal evidence and veterinary professionals.

I would place the birds in question on raw ACV for 2-3 days and then do a round of Pro-biotics for 2-3 days, then start on Neomycin as it is from the 
Aminoglycoside class of antibiotics which are showing to be the most sensitive to the illness brought in by the King Pigeons from Golden Gate. Trimethoprim Sulpha is not showing to be nearly as sensitive as any from the 
Aminoglycoside class of antibiotics and TMP is a med used widely in the breeding community so why would this be a surprise?

Jedd's carries Neomycin medication in powder form:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-e.Coli-fdsh-Paratyphoid-cln-Neomycin/Categories.bok

Without doing your own culture and sensitivity tests, this is a good strategy-based recommendation.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

There have been multiple necropsies at this point and multiple culture and sensitivity tests done. Said tests indicated that SMZ or Baytril would be the most effective drugs. 

Would we be likely to get different findings from tests run on a live bird?

The new arrival that was brought to me at work this morning is showing moderate symptoms but is of good weight. Feathers are a mess, and I can see lots of feather lice on this bird.

I need to talk to the person who actually has this aviary up in Malibu in the morning and hope to be able to come up with a workable plan for the birds.

Terry


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Well Terry I do believe I have found the Malibu bird post. I wish to help in any way I can. Just let me know how and what I can do here. I have cages, room here, I can offer a bit of money to help out as well. Anything just let me know.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Personally, I think that it would be helpful to scan and post the C&S results
so that people can look at the individual results of _these tests that create_
_the treament plan_ in and of themselves. 

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good idea on sharing the test results, FP. I don't know who actually has them .. the vet, I assume. I'll ask about it.

Gimpie, we need to actually go into this aviary and catch and check every single bird and isolate any that are obviously unwell. Would you be available to help with that? Due to the logistics problems with this aviary, it would need to be done at night. Can you please, PM me your phone # if you could help with this? I'm not sure when, but it needs to be this week. I'm going to try to go up there to help with this.

Probably more than money just being able to go there for a hour or so once or twice a week would be a godsend. I am ASSuming that we will find lots of unwell birds when we catch them all, and there are going to have to be volunteers willing and able to go to that site and do meds and food. I cannot take all these birds on myself.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I've talked to Jane about finding who has the test results and getting them scanned and posted here. Hopefully that will happen soon.

I got another of these birds in this evening from Jane .. pretty extreme symptoms.

Hopefully on Thursday evening several of us will actually attempt to catch and examine all the birds remaining in this place in Malibu. We hope to separate the obviously sick ones from the others and get the sick ones into carriers or cages where they can be individually treated. This is likely to be a HUGE undertaking, but we will try.

Today Jane removed ALL the hay substrate from the loft and put down the special loft dressing she got from JEDDS. She also started the loft birds on enrofloxcyn (from JEDDS) in the water. I am now treating with the same enrofloxcyn but in liquid form and am giving each bird an individual dose.

Hopefully we will get this under control and soon. 

Anyone in So Cal that is close enough to help with this in Malibu, please let me know, and I'll get you in touch with Jane or the folks at this loft/aviary.

Terry


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

*Use of Propolis in cases of Salmonella*

You may find this information useful:
As more and more antibiotics are becoming ineffective for Salmonella alternative ways has been researched.
During Salmonella outbreak in Pazardjick – Bulgaria (in Humans) Propolis has been used which proved not only bacteriostatic, but anti-bacterial too.
There are parallel researches in Brazil with same result.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjm/v37n2/arq02.pdf
*For pigeons *– Propolis has been used in Russia by local fanciers in treatment of Salmonella outbreak.
Some administer garlic too.
*Dosage* – raw Propolis is wax like substance. Roll piece size of small corn (pigeon pill) and give to bird once a day.
*Garlic* – cut piece size of small corn and give it to bird down the throat.

P.S. Raw propolis may be posible to find from beekeeper, there are propolis capsules available on the market though.
Newer use tincture on birds as it contains alcohol!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you for this info, Plamenh. We are also getting a PMV test done, just in case. Will post back when I know more.

Terry


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

JGregg....

FYI..between the time the birds were trapped and the time they were placed in Malibu was at least 4 weeks....symptoms did not show up until at least that long, and for some birds, much longer. They were in quarantine that entire time....Would a longer quarantine period have been of value? Probably...but they were not just caught and then tossed into Malibu without any precautions at all. And there is also a chance that they were not carriers themselves so much as they were immune suppressed and developed symptoms when *they *were exposed to the "disease" load carried and held at bay by healthy birds. 

Some of the SF birds have never got sick at all. Some birds that never went to Malibu got sick but with different symptoms. The lesson is that even when reasonable precautions are observed... SH-t happens. In the future, quarantine periods will be extended beyond 4 weeks....and maybe that will help. But with the sheer number of birds being trapped by animal control in SF, there are times when a lengthy quarantine period is a luxury, meaning some birds may face PTS because there is not space for them in rescue homes.

Everyone involved in this effort did their very best with the resources and (conflicting) information available. Many, many hours and a great deal of money has been expended and tears shed....vets, Jedds, necropsies, experts....PT....no stone has been left unturned in the effort to save as many of the affected birds as possible. 

A rotation of volunteers goes to to the Malibu loft DAILY to clean, medicate, observe and trap affected birds. Numerous sick birds are being tube fed and hand medicated off site for weeks on end...and it continues. (The loft is at least 50'x50' of floor space, over 30 feet high with over 80 birds).

All rescuers suffer losses.......but the alternative here meant certain death for ALL the birds at the hands of animal control officers.

I do not mean to sound defensive, but I do not want anyone to believe that *no* precautions were observed at all...or that everything that can be done is not being done. 

With that said, we are trying to stem the tide of new sick birds with the new meds and floor dressings...we should know in a few days whether the new protocol works. Hopefully the lessons we all learn from this will help other birds and rescue efforts in the future.

I know that Terry, Elizabeth and Jane G. greatly appreciate everyones suggestions, prayers, and encouragement as they navigate this challenge.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

JGregg's culture and sensitivity test may be seen by clicking on the link beneath
my signature line for Webshots. A minor detail, though maybe not for someone
looking to purchase Enrofloxcin, Jedd's hasn't carried it for quite some time along w/many other Pigeon Supply Houses. I believe Seigle's, All Bird Product's
and Verduggo's are the only remaining resources:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/resources-for-prescription-meds-w-out-prescription-31594.html

Though Global's is carrying Norflaxin:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=348463&postcount=9

fp


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