# Child was hospitalized with Salmonella poisoning



## Mack318 (Jun 27, 2007)

We have recently aquired 6 Oriental Frill Pigeons. My children (Age 4 and 1 1/2) love them. We have built a nice coop and after one pigeon started laying eggs, we release them during the day. 
About a month ago, we noticed the dominate male pigeon to be acting drunk with his head resting against the floor. We isolated him and his mate started acting funny (looking for him). We isolated her too, so she could see him. She died not long after, then he died. We are now left with 4. 
On Sunday, my 1 1/2 year old daughter started having bad cramps and diarrhea (mixed with blood). My wife took her to the ER and they admitted her because of dehydration. The stool sample came back today and was positive for Salmonella Poisoning. Since then, I have read that pigeons do carry this. Anyone else have experience with this? If this is the case, we will be moving them quickly. Thanks for the replies.


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## nabisho (Nov 18, 2004)

*Could be the pigeons*

but any bird (and a lot of pets for that matter) can carry the bacteria. It can be on eggs or if she plays with the pigeons she might have come in contact with some poop. It's not an airborne bacteria it has to be ingested or absorbed somehow into the body to catch the stuff. I keep all my cages, feed cups and water cups and surrounding areas wiped down with OxineAH stuff that kills all the pathogens associated with birds.

NAB


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Like humans, the illness is also treatable in pigeons. Baytril is the drug of choice and can be purchased at Siegel's:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

The above link came from our resource section. Here's the specific link
at Siegel's:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-ecoli.html

The product that you need would be Enroflaxyn.

AH Oxine is a good product, you can also use a dilution of 1/2 cup of bleach
to a gallon of water and spray surfaces w/this solution. Pets and humans
both carry bacteria and viruses and some can be passed in either direction.
There's never a substitute for good hygiene and common sense. Younger
children who have a tendency to place objects in their mouths or who 
just don't have the concept of hand washing completely internalized need
to be supervised when having close contact. Also, new birds should be
quarantined for at least 30days to ensure that they are in fact healthy.

fp

PS--btw, whereabouts are you located?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mack318 said:


> We have recently aquired 6 Oriental Frill Pigeons. My children (Age 4 and 1 1/2) love them. We have built a nice coop and after one pigeon started laying eggs, we release them during the day.
> About a month ago, we noticed the dominate male pigeon to be acting drunk with his head resting against the floor. We isolated him and his mate started acting funny (looking for him). We isolated her too, so she could see him. She died not long after, then he died. We are now left with 4.
> On Sunday, my 1 1/2 year old daughter started having bad cramps and diarrhea (mixed with blood). My wife took her to the ER and they admitted her because of dehydration. The stool sample came back today and was positive for Salmonella Poisoning. Since then, I have read that pigeons do carry this. Anyone else have experience with this? If this is the case, we will be moving them quickly. Thanks for the replies.



Not likely from your Pigeons unless Pigeopn droppings were added to tepid gravey or soup, then allowed to sit for some hours before serving.

This is what restaurants do...only it is usually with rodent droppings.

Most animals carry it, and or it is present in feces.

I had a really, Really REALLY good case of it in 1980, from some tepid Bisquets and Gravy breakfast at 'Dorothy's Diner' in San Pedro, California.

I thought I was gunna die...I could not imagine feeling so crappy, and NOT dieing...

Yeeeeesh...

Anyway, for people, it takes a pretty hefty dose usually, far as I recall, for it to get a hold of you.

Basic hygene, as far as hand washing and food preps is excellent for prevention.

For people, food which becomes contaminated ( from hands, or feces) , and is then allowed to sit, where the Bacteria then multiplies...and which from there is not definitely cooked or heated enough, is a classic means of getting it.

Otherwise, as for me, I dunno...

Mere handleing of Animals, even ones who are sick with it, I do not think would tend to present enough of a 'dose' of the bacteria, were one then to suck a finget tip, bite one's nails, pick one's nose, or rub an eye or something...but I may be mistaken.


Sorry to hear of these unhappy things...

Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigeons usually get it--Salmonella typhimurium--from mice. The "-murium" is Latin and essentially means "from mice". Is there any possibility that the child has been exposed to mice droppings around the house?

Pidgey


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## Mack318 (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanks for the replies so far. 
The pigeon coop is about 4 feet off of the ground, and they normally stay on the privacy fence until they roost at night. I don't think they have had any contact with mice and we don't have any evidence of mice in or around the house. 
I meant to mention that the 4 pigeons we have left are healthy as far as I know. We think that the female pigeon greived herself to death (if this is possible in pigeons?) and the male had some disease. Like I said, though, it has been about 1 month since they died. 
I would like to think that it didn't come from the pigeons because my 4 year old LOVES them.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Salmonella typhimurium var. Copenhagen*

Pigeons can get sick from a salmonella bacterium serotype or serovar specific only to pigeons. It is called _Salmonella typhimurium var. Copenhagen._ The pigeon disease is commonly referred to as salmonellosis or paratyphoid (among other terms).

From my reading, humans do not get sick from this specific type of salmonella, only pigeons, and not even other birds. 

However, pigeons, like humans and any other animal, can carry pathogens which can affect humans. Many of these pathogens are present in the air and soil around us. So, what your birds specifically died of, from my assumptions and conclusions from what I have read, did not cause the similar-sounding, related, but different strain of bacteria. They could have _carried_ the pathogen which affected your kids, or any flies attending the carcass could have carried something. 

I myself would be a bit more suspecting of foods bought for human consumption. A neighbor here in Germany (I'm from Texas) got very sick and spent the night on our sofa, vomiting frequently in the bathroom, after eating French fries from a local fast food place. This was fifteen or twenty years ago, and then the summers here were a bit cooler and these places left their large gallon-size tubs of mayonnaises (preferred over catsup or ketchup) out, without refrigerating, until it was used up. I was always a bit surprised more people weren't affected. 

We are all so used to hearing about and reading about food poisoning caused by botulism and salmonella poisoning, about not using the same cutting boards for salads and fresh foods that you would use for cutting meat and fish, and about handling eggs, and so on, almost _ad nauseum_, that we tend to adopt certain habits and then not think about such issues when we don't get sick for a while. But people do suffer from food poisoning and such frequently enough without realizing it, because of the low-grade nature of the involvement. I know that do not think about such matters 24/7. I'm not saying this happened with you, but I have no sense of smell since multiple surgeries in the mid-1970s for nasal polyps, and I know i cooked hamburger meat back then which was kind of slimy to the touch (I washed it off) and it tasted kind of metallic. Used lots of mustard. After I came to Germany I married a woman from Antwerp, and my wife is now my nose. She is fond of saying about me: "You can't kill weeds."

I successfully treated a pigeon with salmonellosis, and his first two chicks died at a couple of days after hatching from what I suspected was salmonellosis (my diagnosis or guess). The next four chicks were healthy. I washed my hands and didn't worry overmuch about it affecting me. I was sad for the baby chicks, and the parents. The male pigeon *Wieteke* was very quiet and subdued for a day or so, before he decided he needed to persuade his mate *Mamieke* to start the next nest (in a different location). Te first chick may have died from one thing, and the surviving chick affected by some pathogen developing on the skin of the deceased chick (such as streptococcus or staphylococcus, or something of that sort, perhaps transmitted by a visiting fly), effecting the second chick's death.

I was much more concerned about the pigeons catching something from me than me catching something from them. Tried to keep things clean, but I do not try to live in a sterile environment. That would be the death of me, for sure. 

I also treated Wieteke for PMV (top of head resting on floor for one night, erratic flying and crashing into things for a week or so, requiring me putting him where he wanted to go, among other measures). He recovered. I did not isolate Wieteke from his mate or his two chicks when he suffered the PMV-symptoms. I knew this intuitive decision could be very controversial with PT members, but I felt it would be counter-productive to Wieteke, and the others seemed fat and happy and healthy. He recovered quickly.

Treated another (scalped) pigeon, *Mr. Fifty*, for PMV with even worse symptoms, last summer, for five weeks. He recovered, flew off, and my wife saw him with a local flock a month or so ago, acting like a normal male pigeon. Made her very happy. 

----
OROPHARMA: Paratyphus/Salmonellosis
http://www.oropharma.com/en/duiven/html/paratyphus.html
----
CHEVITA website, link to treatment for pigeon salmonellosis, in English
http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html
----
Communicable Diseases and Epidemiology
Salmonellosis fact sheet
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/prevcont/salmon.htm
----


> Health Concerns to be Aware of When Working With Wildlife (a.k.a. - Zoonoses)
> 
> from The Humane Control of Wildlife in Cities & Towns by the Humane Society of the United States
> 
> Zoonotic diseases are those diseases shared by animals and humans. Approximately 150 zoonotic diseases are known to exist. Wildlife serves as a reservoir for many diseases common to domestic animals and humans. Persons working with wildlife should be alert to the potential for disease transmission from animals. Neither animal handlers nor the general public have reason to be alarmed or frightened, but everyone should respect the potential for disease transmission and use sound preventive measures. Generally, disease is more easily prevented than treated. This discussion reviews common zoonotic diseases, including those ailments that are often erroneously cited as being closely linked to wildlife. Many zoonotic diseases are so common in nature, so rare in humans, or so mild in their symptoms, that wild animals pose a minimal health risk to people. The diseases listed are grouped according to their causative agent or mode of transmission.


http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/zoonos.htm#6


> SALMONELLOSIS
> 
> INFECTIOUS AGENT Salmonella spp.
> 
> ...


----

Reminds me of a favorite joke of a long-deceased uncle: 
Kid complains of feeling stupid. Father says, "No problem, I'll get you some smart pills. Take one a day. Guaranteed to work." 
After several days, kid says: "These aren't pills! They're rabbit pellets!" (droppings). 
Father says, "See, you're smarter already!" 

Ask our kids if they've been taking any smart pills lately.

Wishing your kids the best of health,

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I've had a lot of pigeons with Paratyphoid (the common name for Salmonella typhimurium in pigeons) and have never gotten the least bit sick. I'm not going to say that it doesn't happen, but I've never heard of anyone getting Paratyphoid from them, not sure why although their body temperature is so much higher than ours (about 107 vs. 98.6) that most of the things that they get don't cross over to us, at least not the same strains. 

I guess it'd be a good exercise for all the members of the forum to reply whether they know of anyone possibly getting sick with Paratyphoid from their pigeons. Of course, children WOULD be the most likely to actually get it if anyone could.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Salmonellosis can be contracted from the food we eat, and given the nature of things these days, who knows the origin of all the foods we eat especially from fast food points of purchase. NPR has been doing stories on food exported from China and the health dangers associated with the food products. Of course there was the recent pet food scare traced back to China, who knows at this point unless you make a point of only eating locally grown/produced foods.

Here's a link on to a site w/some interesting/informative material on salmonella:

http://www.salmonella.org/info.html

I have never contracted it in the many sick birds that I've taken in w/the illness and neither have the other birds in the house contracted it when
a new rescue w/the illness arrives. So it is possible to avoid it, but again,
four year olds tend to like putting things in their mouths so maybe it's just
an issue of figuring out a way for your child to enjoy the birds w/out the 
risk if this is possible. It would have been a good idea to have the bird
necropsied so you would have known specifically what you were dealing
with, something to think about in the future.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sorry to hear your little one was so sick and that your 2 birds died.

My brothers youngest child had Salmonella sometime ago (the baby), and the doctor said she could have gotten it while playing in the yard, they do not have pigeons, but they do have a dog. 

The other children didn't get it, just the little one, as at that age they do tend to put things in their mouth as well as their fingers.

They couldn't blame it on my pigeons though, as they were not anywhere around them at that time.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If you could test your birds then you would know if they are carriers (since they have been healthy). In case one or more come up as carrying Salmonella you could treat them.
Many years ago there was a Salmonella outbreak in children transmitted from pet turtles. Children do tend to put their hands in their mouths before washing them, so they are more prone to get infectious diseases.

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*And more on salmonellosis*

This Wikipedia article 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmonella_Infections#Salmonella-associated_diseases



> Disease-causing Salmonella species have recently been re-classified into a single species, Salmonella enterica, which has numerous serovars. Salmonella Typhi causes typhoid fever. Other salmonellae are frequent causes of foodborne illness, especially from poultry and raw eggs and more generally from food that has been cooked or frozen, and not eaten straight away. While these infections would normally only require a treatment of antibiotics, the long-term usage of antibiotics in both the poultry and beef industries may have created a strain of salmonella which is potentially resistant to antibiotics.[7]
> 
> Salmonellosis can also be caught by handling reptiles, such as iguanas or terrapins. A CDC study also noted cases of salmonellosis in 2003 and 2004 associated with handling commercially distributed pet rodents.


This link refers to a 1985 study of seagulls in Scotland, eating from a human refuse tip (dump). Over three thousand gulls were studied, and these 23 serotypes (_agona, anatum, braendenburg, bredeney, hvittingfoss, haardt, hadar, heidelberg, indiana, infantis, java, livingstone,	mbandaka, montevideo, newport, panama, saint-paul, schwarzengrund, stanley, typhimurium, virchow, 4,12:d-, 6,7: r-_) of salmonella were found. The gulls were healthy, but what they carried reflected what local humans were also carrying at the time. 

These details are of little and probably of no interest to you or me, but I list them to show that we and other creatures can carry a variety of pathogens (pathogenic to other species if not necessarily to the carrier species), which may or may not be harmful, or noticed by us. If a pigeon gets sick from *salmonella typhimarium var. Copenhagen*, we should probably be more concerned about other pathogens on the corpse. 

http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gbza22/salmonel.html 



> Salmonella Carriage by Herring Gulls in the Clyde Area of Scotland in Relation to their Feeding Ecology,
> P. Monaghan, C. B. Shedden, K. ensor, C. R. Fricker* and R. W. A. Girdwood*
> Department of Zoology, University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, and
> *Department of Bacteriology, Stobhill General Hospital, Glasgow G21 3UW
> ...


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Mack,,
Sorry to hear about your daughter,, I started my 2 boys with birds at just about that age as well. They just love their birds.. I am not even allowed to feed and water with out them by my side,, they are now 5 and 7..
But,, what I always do without fail,, is make them wash with soap and water,, and also spray their hands with a mixture of vineger and hydrogen peroxide after handling their pigeons. I also use that same mixture for spraying my counters and veggies.. I don't know the difference between one salmonella and the other,, I just do this because it works.
A simple response would have been much more appropriate in your case, in more simpler terms that a common person can understand,, I'm sure if you wanted to read the encyclopedia,, you could have done that...
I surely hope your daughter recovers in good health..
Gary H.


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## Mack318 (Jun 27, 2007)

I don't want anyone to think I am blaming the pigeons. It could have come from anywhere or even just carelessness while cooking. It just happened at the time when the pigeons were still new to us and I figured this was an appropriate forum to ask questions (since I know basically nothing in reference to pigeons).
I am happy to say that the hospital released my daughter today and she seems fine. She is on a BRAT (Bread, Rice, Apple and Toast) diet for the next week. Her dad, on the other hand, is preparing for the emergency room and hospital bill 
We are taking this as a learning experience. We are now almost OCD in the fact that we wash when coming in from outside. 
Thanks again for your help! Great forum.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mack, welcome to the forum though I hate it is under these circumstances.

I'm glad your little girl is well enough to go home. Stuff like that, no matter where we "catch" it is still pretty scary, especially when it involves a loved child. 

Don't worry about blaming the pigeons - it was a natural assumption under the circumstances of having two die. We have never experienced salmonella in ours, or at least where I was able to recognize what it was.

I sure hope your little girl continues to improve.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Iff your child played under the coop in the dropping yes it might be possible. Most often under cooked meats, poultry and such is a way humans get it. And yes MICE are a key to its spread to humans birds ect. And many a resturant have mice. Glad your daughter is doing better. You can treat your birds And it will help protect them. Good luck with the birds and thanks for asking about the birds being a source.. NOT likey they were.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Mack, it's really ok, your 'site demeanor' has been far from accusitory or antagonistic. 
It's a reasonable question to ask and a good place to ask it.
There's an agglutination test that can determine if any of your remaining birds
are carriers, though if you're recovering from the Hospital Bill this might not
be the time to proceed w/lab work on the remaining four birds. You may never
know for sure without the test if the pigeons or fast food or not cooking the eggs 
well enough, or if one of the many species of animals rats and mice included have brought 
the disease in one way or another to your home. At least, though, you can
feel better about taking precautions about food prep and other hygiene measures from 
today forward that will ensure good health in the future.

I'm not trying to inundate you w/textbook information, but one of the reasons
that folks here are able to answer questions like yours is the kind and quality
of information that is shared here in an ongoing effort to understand health
issues specific to pigeons and ones that we can 'share' w/them. With that in
mind, I think you will find this website link informative, helpful and being
from the State of New Jersey's Dept. of Agriculture, one that you can also
rely on in terms of information:

http://www.state.nj.us/agriculture/divisions/ah/diseases/nontyphoidal_salmonellosis.html

I hope your daughter feels better and you all can continue to enjoy the
pigeons that you have brought into your lives. Please keep us posted of 
any new developments should they arise or if we can help in any other way.

fp


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## Jazicat (Oct 31, 2005)

I just wanted to say that I'm glad your little girl is doing better. I had a bad case like you described and it would be hard to see a child that sick. Thankfully she's well enough to be home and I'm sure that makes things better.


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## Mack318 (Jun 27, 2007)

Man, you guys are great. Thank you all so much for the well wishes. She is blowing and going. The more I have read on it, the more it seems like it is more serious in infants and elderly. From what I've read, older children and adults usually show the same symptoms, but write it off as a stomach bug and drink alot of fluids. 
Interestingly enough, the dr. didn't want to start her on antibiotics. She said that it is best if she (daughter) lets her body fight it off and run its course. You don't hear many dr.'s saying that these days. I think the reason we have so many diseases now is because we have a medicine for everything, and don't let our bodies do what God intended them to do. 
Anyway, I will continue to use this forum for the many questions I will have. Thanks again,

FP, I just saw your question a minute ago, I live in Louisiana.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*fp*,

Great link. Says a lot with an economy of words, and relates to animals.

*Mack*, 

I don't want to inundate anyone with encyclopedias of answers, but I also want to be sure I don't mislead. I don't want to quote a source, give a two or three or four word synopsis, and leave the reader with the impression that the source I quoted had nothing more to say, and the reader gives up without having arrived at the necessary information. Don't want to condescend to anyone, or appear that way, because I feel every human and every creature on this planet is my equal, and me, theirs. Not in intellect or strength or size or wealth or whatever, but in that which truly matters. In dignity, love, and essence of spirit. Don't want to eliminate all the "big" or difficult words, when a word is the "apt" word, the most appropriate word, but also want those still in grade school or high school to be able to get the gist of what is being said. I had aunts an uncles who didn't finish high school, who grew up on farms in Texas and picked cotton, who nevertheless had very good vocabulary, could write very well. Don't want to underestimate anybody. Don't want to talk over anybody's heads. Try to strike a balance somewhere. Don't expect everyone to have a great vocabulary spell well, or be good at grammar. My spelling and grammar in German still leaves a lot to be desired. I have a brother-in-law, now a senior research scientist, who goes into Japanese nuclear reactor cores, dangerous areas, and he knows his stuff. Had trouble in college, and maybe still does, with spelling. Doesn't mean he's incompetent in what he does, and I have a lot of respect for him. Very practical person. Doesn't mince words. 

I don't read each and every thread on the forums, don't remember all the names of frequently-mentioned pigeons and which pigeon is going with which pigeon this week, and I know most don't remember stuff I write (I know I don't), and many don't read it or all of it (who has the time?), but if I relate an experience I have had with a pigeon, I like to be as precise as I can so any anecdotal information isn't totally useless. 

Maybe I have read too many crimi's (for example some by Patricia Cornwell) about overlooked and esoteric clues, in her novels dealing with forensic pathology, and the precision and attention to detail required. 

I don't always have time or inclination to follow all the web-links in an article, so like to offer the reader a choice of looking at a quick summary, or looking up the original quote himself. 

*Gary H.*, 

don't want to appear defensive, just explain why my posts are sometimes a bit "too much." (I also agree with you about giving a simple answer, but for that, one must really know his subject). If I were writing a highly polished article, I would cut, cut, cut, edit, delete, re-write, but most of the time I am researching the topic because I know little about it, what I do know consists of half-remembered facts and mis-information, and am learning as I go. And I also forget as I go. I want to be sure to provide quotes, list sources of info, give proper credit to those who did the hard work. Most of what I do is skim read, copy, cut and paste. Don't want people to think I know all this stuff I quote. I don't. 

I also figure people can skip over wordy or irrelevant information. I skip over a lot of stuff, bookmark it, and refer to it later when and if necessary. I have a lung disease among other things, but probably follow pigeon affairs more than I do stuff more directly relating to me. I get newsletters from self-help groups relating to my disease, but skim over a lot of the data. Can't use a lot of it. Doesn't bother me if people skip a lot of what I write. But if they do scrutinize it, I don't want to cause harm by leaving out something some might consider pertinent or essential. Who would suffer? Perhaps, a pigeon. I skip over a lot of stuff I can't answer or weigh in on properly. Someone else will do a great job on it, I figure. I also don't think I provide definitive answers on any subject. Just try to pitch in on occasion, to re-pay some of the great help and advice I have received from the members, and for which I am really grateful. Lots of great people on this website. 

And at the end, after all the blather and froth has been blown away, all the opinions have had to withstand the harsh light of day, maybe something useful remains. 

To whom or to what can be attributed the primary and secondary causes of the salmonella? Who knows? Did the pigeons play a part? Could they? Maybe we will never know, and maybe it isn't all that important. Circumstances change. Bugs -- microbes -- mutate, change. Maybe this time pigeons weren't involved. Maybe next time they might be. But we probably know a bit more in how to deal with and maybe prevent an occurrence, or a recurrence for some. 

Glad your daughter is doing well, Mack. 

Respectfully, and with gratitude to all at PT, a great bunch, 

Larry


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Sorry Larry,,,
Can't argue with documented facts.. I would always prefer the same if I were the one asking questions...
Carry on my good man...
Gary H.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey Larry

You spend a lot of time and effort in doing research for us and I want you to know I do read your posts and appreciate every one of them.

And, I am a humongous fan of Patricia Cornwell. Out of the gazillion books I read a year, I save all of hers to re-read again.

Mack, you have a smart doctor.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Mack,

I am so sorry your daughter has been so ill, it must be very frightening for everyone.

You will have to track down the source of the infection to stop it happening again.

I know that you have received a lot of information of possible sources. Bird tables are a common source of this infection, there have been serious outbreaks mainly among greenfinches. The RSPB warns about the dangers of washing bird feeders in the kitchen because the work surfaces could be splashed and this could cause an infection.

I hope that your daughter recovers quickly.

Cynthia


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