# Colloidal silver



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=548538


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Greetings*

So now I am confused. Good or Not?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

One may also see...

http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=1401

...for some additional info...

 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*So*

One add says for exterior only. Not oral. What are you getting out of these adds about this product?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I use the following product for treatment of infections, and have found no negative side effects, just positive results. My friend, who has been a licensed animal & bird rehabber, (and licensed herbologist) uses this product in her practice. She has been a rehabber for over 30 years.

Abuse and overuse of any product used in treatment can cause negative results.

http://sovereignsilver.info/


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the entire subject is far more complicated than a first glance at the articles would indicate. That last one is talking about a compound where silver is only one component which is not the same as colloidal silver by any means. And, it looks like that particular (no pun intended) study is an "in vitro" study, not "in vivo." The difference between them is that "in vitro" is in a test-tube and "in vivo" is in a living organism like a monkey or a human.

Usually to develop a drug, the first stage is in the test-tube, then you proceed to the animal testing and lastly the human trials. Everything must be done "peer-reviewed" through all levels and "double blind" through the human testing because the power of the placebo effect is remarkable. If someone thinks they're getting something that's going to do some good, they often get better because of their own faith.

For veterinary use, of course, the placebo effect would be virtually non-existent although I've often felt that a pigeon who had otherwise given up rallied when they came to understand that I was trying to help them.

In the human trials, though, you're looking for how well the drug works as intended as well as all the side effects, drug interactions and to develop dosing data.

In the case stated above with respect to the HIV, it should be simply the first phase of the study and that article is woefully deficient in terms of being definitive about what's been completed up to this point. It is a matter of history that HIV is ridiculously easy to kill in the test-tube but a completely different story in vivo.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Numbernine, I have missed seeing your posts.

Maggie


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

"Electrochemical Ag+ solutions exhibit antimicrobial effectiveness." *justification for recommending colloidal silver as a treatment for opportunistic infections in patients with AIDS [Textbook of Natural Medicine, p. 1292]

Comment: Colloidal silver is a poisonous heavy metal. The FDA has declared it unsafe for any medicinal use.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/misrep.html



FDA letter to Janes E. Davidson, proprietor, and Lance C. Griffin, general manager, warning that Colloidal Silver, ... were being marketed with illegal claims that they are useful for treating hundreds of health problems

http://www.fda.gov/cder/warn/cyber/cyber2000.htm



United States Senate Special Committee on Aging
*Hearing on Swindlers, Hucksters and Snake Oil Salesmen:* 

"This year, the Commission has filed eight cases as part of Operation Cure.All, targeting companies that market a variety of devices, herbal products, and other dietary supplements to treat or cure cancer, arthritis, Alzheimer's, diabetes and many other diseases. Among the products for which marketers made unsubstantiated health benefit claims were a DHEA hormonal supplement, St. John's Wort, various multi-herbal supplements, colloidal silver, comfrey, and a variety of electrical therapy devices.

"The following are illustrative of the kinds of claims that the Commission challenged in its Operation Cure.All cases this year:

"We cannot list all 650 diseases that colloidal silver is effective against but here is a list of some of the common ones: Common cold, stomach ulcers, acne, burns, shingles, arthritis, strep, tuberculosis . . . (colloidal silver)

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Hearing/ftc.html



Colloidal Silver: Risk Without Benefit

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html



Dermatology Online Journal - August 16, 2005
Systemic argyria associated with ingestion of colloidal silver 

"Consumption of large doses of colloidal silver can result in coma, pleural edema, and hemolysis. Colloidal silver is also toxic to the bone marrow and may be associated with agranulocytosis. The toxic effects of inorganic silver ingested orally in large doses are very similar to any corrosive solution. Such ingestion can result in burning of the throat and epigastrium, leading to abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea. The patient often suffers convulsions and goes into shock. The single lethal dose of silver nitrate has been estimated to be 10 gm. Silver salts are more toxic than silver proteins or colloidal silver." 

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/111/case_reports/argyria/wadhera.html



National Council Against Health Fraud

"Two men who took colloidal silver for about a year have been diagnosed with argyria at the dermatology clinic at the VA clinic in Reno, Nevada. Both got their ideas from the Internet and believed that the silver would protect them against infection"

http://www.ncahf.org/digest04/04-18.html



National Council Against Health Fraud

"A 58-year-old man who treated a presumed kidney infection with a home-brewed colloidal solution over *a 4-day period *developed permanent blue-gray discoloration of his face, trunk, limbs, and eyes four weeks later"

http://www.ncahf.org/digest05/05-32.html



National Council Against Health Fraud

"Colloidal silver is being huckstered as a superior germ fighter by a number of promoters, including the wacky *naturopath-veterinarian * Joel Wallach. NCAHF reported that a permanent skin discoloration known as argyria can result from ingesting too much silver. 

"Now, even the National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA) is warning health food dealers and consumers that colloidal silver products have not been proved either safe or effective... 

http://www.ncahf.org/nl/1996/11-12.html


Further reading:

http://www.quackwatch.org/search/we...files=50&maxlines=30&maxchars=10000&cache=yes


Hi Maggie.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

http://sovereignsilver.info/silver_safety.php


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

OK, so the first anti-colloidal silver link is from crabcakes in Georgia. I'd like to know who crabcakes is....

The next seven out of nine links bring us to National Council Against Health Fraud or quackwatch.org--not a duck watching group, but instead both groups spearheaded by self-appointed hitman against alternative medicine, Stephen Barrett, M.D. who happens to be a retired psychiatrist from Pennysylvania. He is also very chummy w/the FDA who is chummy w/the 
drug industry at large.

Here are some interesting links on Barrett:

http://www.toolsforhealing.com/cd/Articles/Q/QuackBusters-AJudgesView.html

http://www.citizenshealth.org/ncahf.htm

An excerpt from the above link is posted below concerning NCAHF:

Previous President , “John Renner, M.D., …has maintained a list of over 2,500 physicians, Ph.D.’s and others he deems to be quacks and frauds. To be on this list you just need to belong to an organization that is studying nutrition or any therapy not yet approved by the FDA. There’s a 1990 copy of the list containing 1,137 M.D.’s and 52 people with double doctorates. Although the list does not appear to be in general circulation, it may have been supplied to insurance companies and state medical boards. The result could be that alternative physicians are financially blackballed, or put under additional scrutiny. Dr. John Renner has even put {Nobel prize winning} Linus Pauling, Ph.D. on this quacklist. Dr. Pauling has been singled out by two authoritative sources as one of the top 20 scientists of all time, along with Aristotle, Galileo and Newton. The only other scientist selected from the 20th century was Albert Einstein. Imagine, John Renner, a relative “no-weight” compared to Dr. Pauling, labels the only person to be awarded two unshared Nobel prizes as a fraud.”

Other links of interest:

http://www.aquarianonline.com/Wellness/quackwatch.html

http://www.happyherbalist.com/quackbusters_busted.htm

http://implants.clic.net/tony/Corner3/095.html

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/california_superior_court_judge_.htm

Now I'm not saying that everyone should go out and buy colloidal silver, but I do think it important to have some valid sources put out for discussion and I am questioning
the credibility of Stephen Barrett right down to putting M.D. after his name.

fp


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

FP, excellent bit of sleuthing - well done! It's always important to consider the source of information. Thank you for doing the research and sharing with us!


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

From *ConsumerUnion.org*, the Nonprofit Publisher of *Consumer Reports *magazine:

"...Despite the health claims, ingesting or inhaling silver is potentially toxic ..."

"...While silver may have mild antiseptic powers, it’s too weak to be effective against most bacteria or viruses..."

"...Colloidal silver has been advertised as an anthrax preventive; a treatment for allergies, arthritis, cancer, and diabetes; and a nutritional supplement for pregnant women. That last claim is particularly disturbing because research has linked increased blood levels of silver to birth defects. Other toxic effects from silver ingestion include permanent bluish discoloration of nails, skin, and whites of the eyes and, in severe cases, organ damage and neurological disorders. The mineral may also interfere with certain medications..."

http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_health_care/000125.html

I guess not all research is created equal...


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

NumberNine said:


> I guess not all research is created equals...



That would be an understatement.

fp


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> ...but I do think it important to have some valid sources put out for discussion...
> fp


You mean, like your contribution in your last post...


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

No NumberNine,

I mean to say that packing the thread w/a single biased source would not necessarily count as credible research especially when the source is an individual who even the courts do not consider to be knowledgable on the topic he chooses to critique. He has truly become a self-appointed hitman. Or perhaps a paid hitman, who knows.

fp


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> OK, so the first anti-colloidal silver link is from crabcakes in Georgia. I'd like to know who crabcakes is....


Attacking the messenger, instead of the message... The article referred in the first post of this thread contains 9 links to different organizations, like Darmouth University, the Australian Government, etc. . But unless you actually read the article, you wouldn't know that and would only have your opinion.

In my second post, the two other sources you conveniently discarded are from the Dermatology Online Journal and the United States Senate Special Committee on Aging. I guess their opinions don't matter.

Who knows? Maybe Consumers Union is also in bed with Barrett, the FDA and the drug industry at large.



feralpigeon said:


> I mean to say that packing the thread w/a single biased source would not necessarily count as credible research


Good! Because I didn't do that.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too, the fda has been vile, decietful, insincere, lieing, paid-by-big-pharma-houses to be their henchman-enforcer.

The fda has no, zero, nada, zilch respectibility or ethics or integrity.

They are the worst sell-outs one could find, with their only real loyalty being to multinational corporations' profit motive, above all else.

All of the testing and studies which are supposed to investugate the merits or demerits or qualities variously or p[rospective drugs or medicines are skewed to favor profit for those who influence the fda, and not for honesty, truth or good impartial Science.

They are sanctioning manditory psychopharmacological drugs for ALL people and all children...the endless graft and con-jobs of endless drug profits for the pharmaceutical houses...hideous...TRILLIONS of dollars are at play in these 'wars' of disinfo.

If the fda said "Water is Wet" I know I better be 'suspicious' about what are they trying to pull now!

Lol...

Bad...

Very bad...

Shameful...there SHOULD be waves of scandal rocking Nation on the stuff the fda pulls, but...sigh...everyone is just too beat up, too worn out, too buisy being beat up and worn out...for 'scandal' to anylonger be a possiblilty for our culture...

...sigh again...

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You can find tons of contradictory info on the internet. Anyone can post it's opinion. The fact is that everything can cause side efects in large doses, even tea, even one of our oldest and safest medicine aspirin.
Colloidal silver was used for a long time before antibiotics were discovered and for mild infections it did work. Studies were done on humans back then.
Now why would anybody take colloidal silver for a year, or in large quantities.
If you took penicillin for a year every day you still can get infections, not to mention the side effects.

I personally use the silver and had not any side effects. I use it on my birds, on myself topically so far and on my plants. Had no side effects and it worked great in some cases.
When the infection is mild and when nothing else is on hands silver would be of benefit.
Now if I have a case of bad canker or sepsis for example, I would use antibiotics, in those cases you need something that acts quick and specific on the agent. And still a drop of silver wouldn't harm in those cases either.

Back in Europe we used it on newborn's eyes to prevent gonococcal infections and it worked great and never saw any side effects.

Reti


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

*In 2000:*

Taken from FDA letter sent to Health Genesis. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1863&d=1131587209

"Colloidal silver ...useful against all species of fungi, bacteria, protozoa, parasites and certain viruses..."and"...effective against Streptococcus...Gonorrhea...and other enteric pathogens".



*In 2005:*

From Health Genesis Corporation's very own website. Accused in 2000 by the FDA of making false claims about colloidal silver (as well as other products).


"COLLOIDAL SILVER 500ppm - 2 oz liquid"

"A NEW DISCOVERY"

"No therapeutic claims are made regarding this nutritional supplement." (Maybe they should read what Consumers Union said in 2003 about using it as a nutritional supplement...)

"This article is for information purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for medical advice. Your health and lifestyle may make the outcomes different for you. You should consult with a physician or other health-care professional familiar with nutrition, prevention, and related health issues."

"*These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. *These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."*

http://store.yahoo.com/healthgenesis/silver3495.html


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My, my, my, but this debate is always spirited. I suppose that it's because many folks (including me for most of my life) have the deep, abiding suspicion that "they" don't want "us" to know about cheap medicines that will cure us of all/most/a-lot-of our ills. I don't know about the rest of ya', but I know all too well that I don't eat right, sleep enough or get all the exercise that I should. I've got bad habits and I'm going to pay for them, sooner or later.

I've looked into the groups that live the longest on the earth and the thing they probably have the most is high anti-oxidant diets, access to adequate minerals and little or no access to a couch to potato on. They neither live longer due to panaceas nor because they don't live under the FDA (can't prove that one, I'm just ranting).

Anyhow, silver ions are highly biocidal and that's a CLINICALLY proven fact. That's why they're often used in topical antiseptic ointments and dressings. Remember Silvadene? That's an expensive cream for bad burns that you had to keep in the fridge.

Where silver's effectiveness is diminished is in the presence of organic matter. With many antibiotics, they're designed to not be absorbed or metabolized by the host's cells. That is, they pretty much hunt around for the things they're in there to kill and they do it somewhat unmolested by the body. That's a really simplified way of putting it but it's not too far off and that's what researchers are shooting for.

Silver ions, on the other hand, may be as readily absorbed by the host's cells as the bad guys so to maintain an actual therapeutic dose in the body could mean pumping in far and away too much. For an infection that's on the surface, however, they can be quite beneficial. This is a link to an article that's referencing pure research as to the efficacy of silver as used in dressings (gotta' warn you though, you better have a LOOOONNG attention span and the silver stuff's toward the bottom):

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2004/november/Thomas/Introducing-Silver-Dressings.html

Now, this is approaching the kind of article that you don't argue with as it's only one or at most two generations from the folks that are looking through the electron microscopes. Some of those references may trail out to more clinical articles that are of more interest to all concerned in the current debate. 

That article, however, is not the final word here, not by a long shot. It illustrates that all infections are NOT created equal and, thusly, respond differently to a given medication or formulation thereof. 

Anyhow, I wouldn't bother with the more anecdotal material with regard to this question, I'd try to ferret out the more clinical material where researchers have tested compounds in animals that they darn well know have specific diseases because they're the ones that infected them with 'em. I really don't like that whole idea but it has been done and I've benefitted from it so that makes me just about as guilty, I guess.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

In keeping with this spirited conversation ......

.....All colloidal silvers are not created equal....either

I don't need proof, I've gotten it on my own.

I stand firmly behind the FACT, that I have used Sovereign Silver, for Coccidiosis, Candida, eye infections, and external injury, and any time I suspect infection, and have used it successfully.


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> I stand firmly behind the FACT, that I have used Sovereign Silver, for Coccidiosis, Candida, eye infections, and external injury, and any time I suspect infection, and have used it successfully.


I have no doubt that you did! The question is what price will the birds pay for your methods?

Here's one last link for the disciples of colloidal silver.

"Animal studies have shown that silver builds up in the tissues of the body" 

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/alerts/silver/


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Treesa,

I remember being very surprised to read in a medical book that anywhere IN the alimentary canal is technically "outside" the body because it's technically on the outside of a skin-like barrier. You could say that medicines traveling along with boluses of food could rate as "topically applied." Coccidiosis and Candida are, in this sense, primarily "external" infections and it may well be efficacious in such a circumstance. I'd just keep on doing what you're doing until somebody coughs up pure data about the specific product you're using.

For the researcher, it must be positively determined that the patient does, in fact, have the disease that a treatment is being tested for and there must be a control group. Further, the results must be demonstrably repeatable. When a reputable someone has used a method like this to prove or disprove the efficacy of a drug, it's about as final as it gets. Personally, I doubt very much that anyone can find such data on colloidal silver products specific to different manufacturers, at least on the internet.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,

Guess I'm confused, when I brought up the issue of Argyria,
this was your response to me, see post #19:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12011&highlight=colloidal+silver

fp


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Treesa,
> 
> I remember being very surprised to read in a medical book that anywhere IN the alimentary canal is technically "outside" the body because it's technically on the outside of a skin-like barrier. You could say that medicines traveling along with boluses of food could rate as "topically applied." Coccidiosis and Candida are, in this sense, primarily "external" infections and it may well be efficacious in such a circumstance. I'd just keep on doing what you're doing until somebody coughs up pure data about the specific product you're using.
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks Pidgey,

I guess my rehabber will go ahead and keep doing *(keep on keeping on)*what she has been doing using it for THIRTY YEARS, and she hasn't lost a bird yet, except for one that was dying when she got it. Let me see if I can get her to post here also.

I read on the Sovereign Silver website that it has been tested in vivo.

I called the company yesterday morning, and I will get some more information that I will post directly, no link. The company rep may himself post, if I can talk him into taking the time signing up.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

Well, I don't think I've changed my tune. What I said in that post was regarding Argyria, that it's a cosmetic issue that isn't going to matter to a bird. Might even look good on a white pigeon, kinda' like one of those silver Xmas trees.

I have not read that such a condition had any effect on a person beyond the social issues. I believe a claim was once made that "if you have enough silver in your body, you can't get sick" which flies in the face of that lady who, because of her argyria, is the self-made poster child for the anti-silver faction and who got cancer. But even that is technically "anecdotal" data--you can't say anything for certain about the form of the silver she took so it's a useless story for either side of the debate as far as I'm concerned.

In that link I posted, somewhere waaaaay down there, it refers to silver toxicity and nobody yet has explained the nature of that toxicity in clinical terms. It's sure been bandied around here a lot but I haven't read one thing to tell me anything of use.

The concentrations that have been expressed by the pro-camp seem well below the high concentrations mentioned in the text so toxicity may very be a complete non-starter in this debate. As such, the real question should rather revolve around its therapeutic use. Face it, it's a fact that silver has a use in the medical industry and they're exploring further avenues--that's what that link indicated. 

However, the link also points to the likelihood that silver is sometimes completely useless with an embedded infection that's awash in produced, complex fluids that negate its ability to penetrate to the core of the infection. That's almost like real war--you can't win the war if you can't win the logistics. 

Now, the problem as I see it is one of walking that tightrope where you must decide early in the patient's treatment which way you're going to go. Too much faith in any drug to the point of choosing it instead of another when the other is the more efficacious one to choose, is a bad thing. In the case of the silver, I've never heard or read of any drug interactions so parallel treatment is not a problem. I think a person would be ill-advised to emotionally or automatically always give the credit to their favorite drug in such a case. We're prone to do that, unfortunately.

What little I've read about the different colloidal silvers is that some of the companies might as well be giving you a silver nugget to swallow for all their poor quality control is worth. As to the chemistry of how the silver is ionized, I don't know that stuff and simply cannot debate it at this point. 

I'm simply pointing out that if we don't find bonafide, clinical research regarding the specific product in question as it relates to each and every pathogen in its various presentations (surface wound; liver infection; osteomyelitic infection; ad nauseum), then we might as well meet in an agreed-upon place, choose sides and start throwing taunts and rocks, weiner roast to follow (veggie-dogs, of course).

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

"...... we might as well meet in an agreed-upon place, choose sides and start throwing taunts and rocks, weiner roast to follow (veggie-dogs, of course).

Pidgey[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Poo,  , I'll bring the marshmellows.

fp


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> "...... we might as well meet in an agreed-upon place, choose sides and start throwing taunts and rocks, weiner roast to follow (veggie-dogs, of course).
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks, Poo,  , I'll bring the marshmellows.

fp[/QUOTE]

*LOL I'll bring the wine, organic from pesticide free sources, processed under strictest guidelines, of course*


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...


An interesting on-going project...is described somewhat in the web pages the following link takes one to - 

http://www.potpaz.org/pfpfilters.htm


I was trying to co-respond some years ago with these people, but did not suceed in much dialogue.

I like their idea, but I did not feel they were going about it as practically as they could, as far as how they were trying to get these vessels and components made in various third world places with local people, but regardless, it is interesting and valuable...and, of course for our thread here, employs Colloidal Silver...

Best wishes all..!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's an interesting link Phil, thanks for posting.

fp


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Life expectancy has been increasing in all countries since antibiotics have replaced colloidal silver. 

If colloidal silver is such a great cure for "all" diseases, in particular all the diseases for which modern medecine doesn't have a cure, then how come life expectancy wasn't greater when "everyone" was taking it and antibiotics like the ones we have today did not exist?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774532.html


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Colloidal silver doesn't cure ALL diseases. I don't know where you got this from. It doesn't even cure all infections. But it can cure mild to moderate infections.
The link you posted is showing the birth death rates which are not necessarily caused by infections but can be caused by a variety of other factors, like hemorrhage, prolonged labor etc. The birth survival rates have improved mostly because of wider use of cesarean sections, prenatal care and hospitalization.

I don't know why you are trying so hard to convince the members of this group that colloidal silver is so bad. So far many of us have used it successfully when administered properly and we had no ill effects from it.
All you have to do is not use it if you think it is so bad.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

NumberNine said:


> Life expectancy has been increasing in all countries since antibiotics have replaced colloidal silver.
> 
> If colloidal silver is such a great cure for "all" diseases, in particular all the diseases for which modern medecine doesn't have a cure, then how come life expectancy wasn't greater when "everyone" was taking it and antibiotics like the ones we have today did not exist?
> 
> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774532.html


Life expectancy has increased because they came out with immunizations that took care of the diseases, that antibiotics couldn't like, polio, measles, mumps, rubela, etc. They didn't have immunizations for them. People are now dying from diseases caused by nutrient deficient diets, and the traditional antibiotics can't take care of that either.

Silver is still used today, in hospitals in the neonatal units, they wash babies eyes with it when they are born. The burn units use silver in cream for therapy. 

Who said it was a cure all? It is a great BONUS and a BIG plus in rehab, because you can use it in addition with traditional medicine, and as an anti-infectent it is wonderful to use on vulnerable, immune supressed, and birds with depleted gut bacteria, as it doesn't kill good gut bacteria, not to mention what it can do for a youngster.

Doreen, my friend and rehabber of 30 years, will also tell you of Sovereign Silvers great benefits, she uses it in all her rehab when there is a chance of infection. She told me she didn't have time to post, she cannot even keep up with her e-mail, but she has syears of success stories and examples of using it on pigeons, pelicans, ducks, geese, chickens, squirrels, hawks, possums, Sand Hill cranes, Sea guls, and on and on... She uses only traditional antibiotics when they are called for, such as surgery. Other then that, immune system response is quicker and better when you use it along with nutrition and other supportive care.

You also mention silver being stored in the tissues, anything that you use too much of (overdose and/or for too long a period of time) is stored in our body in tissue, and fat cells. People that overuse vitamins have the fat solluble vitamins stored in their fat cells. 

How can you be so judgmental when you haven't even tried the Sovereign silver?


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> The burn units use silver in cream for therapy.



Just wanted to share this: My professor last year in Anatomy and Physiology is also a practicing doctor. When we were learning about the skin, we also covered the various burns and methods of healing. Just wanted to tell you that this doctor was a big fan of Silverdene cream for burns and in fact, recommended its use to us, the class, for treatment of burns.

Just thought I'd relate this, but am staying out of the debate as I don't know enough about the subject to jump in.....But, can I still come to the weinie roast?? 

Linda


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lin Hansen said:


> .....But, can I still come to the weinie roast??
> 
> Linda


Linda,

So far, we've got vegetarian weiners, organic wine and marshmellows......
but no briquettes.....nothing worse than raw marshmellows  - what do ya think??

fp


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

I think it would be foolish to think that whatever I write will have an impact, one way or the other, with any and all participants of this forum. Even more so when you look at the sum of all my posts. It is clear that I've never tried to score brownie points with anyone. Moreover, some of the views I expressed in some posts are totally contrary to the lifestyle of 90%+ of the participants (re meat).

I posted in here because I care about all livings creatures and I seek the truth. I don't care about being wrong everyday of my life, all I care about is the truth.

About colloidal silver, at the September 10, 2001 hearing of the United States Senate Special Committee on Aging, it was revealed that one company selling such product claimed that, "We cannot list *all 650 diseases* that colloidal silver is *effective against* but here is a list of some of the common ones: Common cold, stomach ulcers, acne, burns, shingles, arthritis, strep, tuberculosis...". Another company claimed that, "...useful against all species of fungi, bacteria, protozea, parasites and certain viruses and effective against Streptococcus, Gonorrhea and other enteric pathogens. Another one claimed it was a cure for HIV. 

It is clear that colloidal silver has been falsely advertised as a "universal" solution.

One of the principles in medicine is that it is not wise to store metals in your body. Be it mercury, lead, silver, zinc, etc. As a general rule, you should try to avoid storing any metals in your body. Silver has its place in medicine, but it should be used sparingly and never administered orally.

To give you an example: If I were to tell you to use arsenic to treat birds with serious illness, your first reaction might be to think that I'm crazy. But you should know that arsenic has been used actively in the medical world for more than a hundred years (in fact it has been used for thousands of years). At one time, it was the drug of choice for treating syphilis. Tests on animals revealed that arsenic prevented animals from developing cancer. So scientists felt that it was THE solution to our problems. Only recently has the chronic effects of prolonged low level exposure showed up. After several years of low level arsenic exposure, various skin lesions appear. Manifested by hyperpigmentation, hypopigmentation and keratoses of the hands and feet. And a decade later, skin cancers are expected. 

I spoke about arsenic to illustrate the fact that we have to be very careful about what we use in treating illnesses.

My 2 cents, no more.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

NumberNine said:


> I think it would be foolish to think that whatever I write will have an impact, one way or the other, with any and all participants of this forum.
> 
> *Of course it had an impact. You may be right about some colloidal silver products, and also some that make ridiculous claims.But don't knock the product I specifically have used for years as well as many others have used, that has worked just fine, in very safe levels. Did you even read that website? Whatever I right seems to have no impact on you either.*
> 
> ...


*BINGO! FINALLY! the point we have been trying to make, we as responsible users of the product, Sovereign Silver use it sparingly, and short term. 

I am well aware of toxic chemicals in birds & people, we detox birds suspected of heavy metal poison. We use barley leaf powder and milk thistle to detox, as well as a few other things.*


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Numbernine, 

I truly believe that everyone has acknowledged and understood your posts. All of us have given you ample time and consideration of your "findings". Many of us have listened intently to the facts that you've presented but you need to do better than you have. Frankly, you are being rather contentious in your rebuttles regarding both the colloidal/sovereign silver and garlic. Professionals such as Treesa have years of direct experience with these organics that shouldn't or can't be denyed. There is no comparison to practical, hands-on experience vs. hypothetical, second hand accounts from the NET, various readings or impractical hypothesis'.

If you don't use those items, fine, if your information is contradictory to ours, fine again. We all exercize our own free will to make our own decisions based upon the facts that we've been presented with. None of us are bound and/or forced to do what we don't want to do. However, this forum by it's nature isn't best suited to argue the points back and forth. It's not instant messaging and doesn't allow for a flowing, conversation. Things are getting skued in translation and it then becomes a slow motion battle of who can prove what.

You have more than stated your points and Treesas has given hers. It's time to now leave it up to the readers themselves to make a decision based upon the information gathered and presented. 

Each one of us wants what is best for our pets, charges or patients. Don't let your perception of one topic, or product cloud the universal best interests we all want for "our" pigeons! Nothing in our world is absolute, guaranteed or fail safe...we are all just doing our best with the information and knowledge we've been armed with.


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Thanks Brad. I'm glad that you can speak for everyone. I'm also glad that you were so generous in the time allocated to me and that you did not lock the thread before I get a chance to post my reply. Too bad you did not understand that I never attempted to offer a rebutal about the garlic.

From someone who admitted not doing any rehabbing, I'm glad to see you have no problem evaluating a professional rehabber. You are totally correct, no one should ever question those who have years of experience. They can't go wrong. Direct training beats medical education anytime.

Sorry if I overstated my point. It's more difficult to get people to understand when they don't take the time to read the whole post.

P.S. How can you go wrong when you all agree?


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Numbernine, 

I'm sorry you feel this way, truly. You're right, I'm not a rehabber but I (we) have listened to your side of the equasion in depth. I'm not the only one that can lock a thread or subject and that only ever needs to be done when circumstances dictact the downhill slide of any particular thread. Sometimes though, a debate can get a little personal and we just want the facts stated, which they have been already.

Here in this forum, we strive to communicate our thoughts to others in a respectful, intelligent way but not an overbearing one. As I said, you presented your points, Treesa presented hers...there is really nothing more that needs to be said because the debate could go on forever with no real definitive answer for the other members. It boils down to hands-on experience and personal opinions.

We all have both

There are pros and cons to everything that one utilizes to ensure our birds are in the optimum of health.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I, for one, have been researching the toxicity issue in the midst of this. It is definitely true that too much, too fast can be life threatening to a human and I'm sure that it's true for all animals. Now, I already know that ya'll are dosing in such tiny amounts that you're nowhere near that level and I'd advise those of you who advocate it to emphasize to those new folks that you instruct in its use to be very mindful of the quantity.

As to the buildup of the stuff in living tissue, yes, it does and in organic bonds. Such bonds are virtually a lifetime consequence. That's actually the problem with heavy metals--they form very strong molecular bonds with living organic proteins. In such placement, they will no longer be of any use whatsoever medically speaking as they're locked away. 

Now, what we (as in "us"--I'm sure there's a researcher somewhere... ) don't know is what the long term problems are. What NumberNine is alluding to is that it may be mutagenic. There is a therapy for getting rid of heavy metals called chelation that introduces inert chelates in the bloodstream that will be eliminated ultimately in the intestines or kidneys. They are usually molecular rings that have a stronger affinity for heavy metals than the body's organic bonds. As such, they're supposed to rip the metals out. I'm just pointing out that heavy metal poisoning is something that is considered bad enough that it's a good idea to avoid it in the first place rather than treat later. It's when these things go long term that the problems start to show.

The Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland is a prime example of heavy metal poisoning, specifically mercury. That famous hat that he was wearing was a beaver fur hat of the day and they used mercury vapor to form them. The buildup in the system eventually caused a short-circuiting in the brain that was irreversible. While the Mad Hatter was a fictitious character, he was based on real cases that were clinically identical in behaviour (English spelling as he was an English character).

I believe it is for the reasons above that the pharmaceutical industry has only promoted the use of silver in dressings, catheter coatings and ointments. The Silvadene cream for burns that we've talked about is almost without peer for its designed use. Burns heal differently than other wounds and exude a protein rich fluid that is the perfect Petrie dish for many bacteria such as Staphylococcus Aureus. Ointments like NeoSporin do not work well on burns because they slow the healing process. Silvadene doesn't while remaining as a biocidal. There's a lot more engineering here than most people appreciate.

I'll add more later but it's getting late.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

NumberNine said:


> I'm glad that you can speak for everyone. I'm also glad that you were so generous in the time allocated to me and that you did not lock the thread before I get a chance to post my reply. Too bad you did not understand that I never attempted to offer a rebutal about the garlic


*Brad did not close the thread, I did, because it was going in a downward spiral, and comments and rudeness have no place here.
*


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey,

I appreciate the information and all your informative/unbiased posts.Thank you for your time spent here.

Yes, we do use small amounts of the silver topically and orally. 

I'm well aware of heavy metal toxicity, and am glad you brought it up. Mercury based fillings are causing alot of problems for people that have them in their teeth for years. Some toxicity is done obviously from overdose others happen because long term studies were never done, like the mercury fillings being used instead of porcelain.

In my quest for finding other alternative anti-biotics besides the silver, I have come up with several, as well as NANO DHLA, a product recently approved for pigeon use, to detox heavy metals, such as cadmium, mercury, arsenic, etc. It is not only deposits in the body that need to be cleared, but the liver and kidneys themselves need detoxification. I know of many good products for human consumption that have been clearing up health issues in humans for years, and just wanted to see if some could be used in rehab, something more potent then barley leaf and milk thistle,as we are getting more birds displaying toxic overload in their bodies. It just makes sense to treat street pigeons who have lived on the streets, picking up grit laced in cadmium and other things, on a product that will not harm them, yet clean them out, and also enable us to treat other health issues at the same time. Also, birds that are on medications need to go thru detox therapy, to rid their system of what may be left that kidneys and liver can't clear out. Chemicals back up the kidneys and livers, and overuse of anything is not good. 

You know so much about rehabbing very sick, and injured birds, your knowledge just astounds me, I only know only about keeping them healthy, or bringing them back to optimum health.

Thank you again, for sharing all your knowledge and talent. 

...and I will continue to share what I am learning, thru use of the products that I have seen getting remarkable results in birds as well as humans.


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> ... Burns heal differently than other wounds and exude a protein rich fluid that is the perfect Petrie dish for many bacteria such as Staphylococcus Aureus. Ointments like NeoSporin do not work well on burns because they slow the healing process...


Not only that, you should avoid triple antibiotic ointment containing neomycin (Neosporin), which is a frequent allergen, causing contact dermatitis.

Topical antimicrobial agents such as mupirocin ointment, bacitracin, or silver sulfadiazine ointment work best on staphylococcal infections.

Polysporin triple antibiotic ointment does not contain neomycin, but does contain bacitracin.


----------



## Doogal (Oct 2, 2005)

*Colloidal-silver*

I got sucked in and purchased a generator to make my own colloidal-silver to give to my race pigeons and found no difference in the appearance of the birds.
BUT there racing performance deteriodated and did not recover all season.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Doogal said:


> I got sucked in and purchased a generator to make my own colloidal-silver to give to my race pigeons and found no difference in the appearance of the birds.
> BUT there racing performance deteriodated and did not recover all season.



Why did you give them the colloidal silver? Were your birds sick? 
How much did you give them and for how long?
For us who do use the colloidal silver, we don't give it unless there is a reason, we don't give it routinely for prevention and we don't give it for prolonged periods of time.
There might also be another reason why your birds didn't reace well, if they were sick to begin with.

Reti


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Doogal,

a good read for you at link below: (you might want to print it, it's 18 pages long)

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-156.shtml

If you get your hands on a very good medical textbook of dermatology, you might learn more about metal toxicity.

Now that you have given them silver, maybe it's time to serve them garlic and green tea


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Doogal said:


> I got sucked in and purchased a generator to make my own colloidal-silver to give to my race pigeons and found no difference in the appearance of the birds.
> BUT there racing performance deteriodated and did not recover all season.


*I'm sorry to hear about your experience with silver.

It should only be used for treatment ( in very strict dosage over a small period of time) it should NEVER be used as a preventative

I would not ever recommend making your own, but get a reputable product like Sovereign Silver, that is safe, and doesn't make false claims. *


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Doogal said:


> I got sucked in and purchased a generator to make my own colloidal-silver to give to my race pigeons and found no difference in the appearance of the birds.
> BUT there racing performance deteriodated and did not recover all season.


Hi Dougal, 

I remember you're posts on whether you should vaccinate your birds for Paratyphoid as it might cause their performance to suffer that season. Then your recent post about giving cats bad fish to get rid of them. And now, you say you were sucked into purchasing a generator so you could make your own colloidal silver for what appears to have been appearance concerns. 

I don't mean to be rude with you, but it would seem that some of your "concerns" for animals/birds would not necessarily be their best "concern".
JMHO. Afterall, a healthy bird is in the collective best interest to all. 
fp


----------

