# neighbor started falconry



## Crab_Shrapnel (Jan 17, 2010)

Okay, my neighbor started falconry recently. should I be nervous?


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

I wouldn't, Falconry requires a lot of space when training their birds, they usually like open space and they won't let their birds eat fresh meat due to bacteria. They usually freeze the meat prior to giving it to their birds. I have a friend in California that raise Falcon and Pigeons at the same time. I know he feed more Hare than birds.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

interesting... do they compete or something? how does falconry work?


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## StanelyPidge09 (May 22, 2009)

My boyfriend is a falconer so I do have some experience with this topic. No you should not be worried about your pigeons. Falconers do not let their birds fly free unless they are out hunting and that usually occurs in a completely different location where hunting is permited. When the birds are being trained and exercised they are put on a creance (i'm not sure if that is spelled right) but it is basically a super strong cord that allows the bird flight time while still being connected to the falconer, so your birds will be fine even if they are out of the coop while the bird of prey is out. 

PS. my boyfriend is under STRICT orders to never feed his red-tail hawk pigeons! 

spirit wings, falconry is a sport that utilizes a bird of prey to hunt game. The bird is trained to associate the human with food so they will willingly follow overhead when hunting. The falconer will notify the bird when it sees prey and then the catching of the prey is up to the bird. Most involved in the sport don't actually use the game they catch (mice, birds, rabbits, squirrels) as food for themselves but rather for food for their birds. This said, most get involved to observe the natural beauty of the birds hunting and flying.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It COULD be a good thing. If they teach their falcon/hawk not to bother your birds, then it could very well scare other BOP away from your loft. Especially if it's a big hawk, like a red-tail, which usually dominates the area.


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

I have 2 of my lofts at a friends farm, about 20 feet from his weathering area for his red tailed hawk. I was flying rollers out of one and never lost a single bird to an attack, even though there are a lot of coopers hawks in the area, so Becky is right, it could help protect your birds.
I have met about 60 falconers and been to a lot of meets and they let there birds eat fresh meat off of the bird's kills.
A lot of them use defrosted frozen food for ease of use for the maintence diet.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Who would have thought that a hwak would protect pigeons from a hawk!


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## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

That's a first for me Too! 
Personally, I feel that Pigeons are Alot More Fun to keep, then any other type of Bird.
I also feel, that Hawks really, are Not, trainable. Not any more trainable then,(example) say, a Lion, or Hippo would be.
Wild animals are just that, Wild Animals.
I won't support any agressive breed of animal as a pet.
If birds of prey were so nessiary, it kinda makes you wonder why they need so much help from our tax paying dollars! 
But, then again, it's nice to see that people are doing there own thing...
Sometimes, theres Better things to Do!


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i'm a bit torn about the sport myself on one hand is very cool to be able to get up close to see these amazing birds, on the other hand i hate the fact that they are stolen out of the nest to be doomed to a life in captivity instead of flying free as is there birthright.
i say talk to the neighbor and tell him your concerns i'm sure it will be fine and you will get to visit with an awesome bird at the same time


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

altgirl35 said:


> i'm a bit torn about the sport myself on one hand is very cool to be able to get up close to see these amazing birds, on the other hand *i hate the fact that they are stolen out of the nest to be doomed to a life in captivity instead of flying free as is there birthright.*
> 
> i say talk to the neighbor and tell him your concerns i'm sure it will be fine and you will get to visit with an awesome bird at the same time


I agree 100%.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It depends very much on the kind of person your neighbour is.

We had a sad case here on Pigeon Talk , when someone deliberately set his hawk on his friend's racing pigeons which were out for exercise and considered the photograph of the kill a suitable subject for this forum.


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

Most raptors, in falconry, are not taken from the nest, but instead captured on their first passage flight.
Most of the raptors captured would die of starvation if not taken in by humans, which is why the U.S. Federal government allows them to be taken at that age and not older. Taking them has no noticeable efect on the wild population and is carefully monitored.
In Ohio most of the available capture permits for raptors are not filled.
Most of the falconers I have met have captive raised birds.
The most popular raptors at the meets I have been to are Harris Hawks followed by red tails. Harris hawks are neat because they are social and will hunt in packs.
I think Harris Hawks are a poor choice for hunting in Ohio because they do not fly well in cold weather.
Most of the falconers I have talked to catch very small amounts of game.
I think that if you enjoy watching and working with pigeons, there is a good chance that you will find falconry interesting.
It may seem cruel, but the raptors are doing what they were made for, which has shaped the pigeons we love.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Feefo said:


> It depends very much on the kind of person your neighbour is.
> 
> We had a sad case here on Pigeon Talk , when someone deliberately set his hawk on his friend's racing pigeons which were out for exercise and considered the photograph of the kill a suitable subject for this forum.


geesh that's horrible! i hope they took him to court


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## StanelyPidge09 (May 22, 2009)

Yes I agree with Keith. Most of the birds used in falconry are not stolen from the nest as suggested. There are people who will take birds from the nest and raise them and I do DISAGREE with that. I do not think that they should be allowed to do that. However, very few (in proportion to the amount of falconers out there) actually do this because of the lifetime commitment they must make to the bird which is very costly and time consuming. 

That said, most falconers will trap a passage bird like Keith said. A bird that is passing through the area on its first migration. They keep it the winter (usually Sept. to Mar.), teach it to hunt successfully, feed it up and get it nice and healthy, and then come spring release it back to the wild. One in 10 or 15 first year red tail hawks survive the winter so falconers are actually helping the bird's chances of survival in the present and the future.

As far as the training, its more of teaching the bird to associate humans with food. The bird is wild and will never be trained in the way we tend to think of a trained animal. All it learns from the falconer is that if it follows the human it will lead the bird to food.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

capturing once they know true freedom is even meaner, i do know it takes a very long time and a lot of training to become permitted to do it so thankfully it's not something anyone can just go ahead and do or would want to do
don't mind my opinion of it i will always stick up for a birds freedom if they are healthy enough to be free


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> capturing once they know true freedom is even meaner, i do know it takes a very long time and a lot of training to become permitted to do it so thankfully it's not something anyone can just go ahead and do or would want to do
> don't mind my opinion of it i will always stick up for a birds freedom if they are healthy enough to be free


I hate to poo poo on someone elses "thing" or hobbie, but... yeah, that is something I did not think of till now... wild animals, birds or what ever should stay that way. I do not feel that way with domestic feral animals though, like cats, horses, pigeons?, ... But if they are well cared for, and it is a strictly governed on having them, then perhaps they do not suffer as they can in the wild to find food... I dunno... I kinda have mixed feelings on it, as I do not know enough about the subject to make a decided opinion....ummmm


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

Falconry meets are generally open to the public.
I suggest that if anyone is interested, that they contact their State's Department of Natural Resources to find out when the meets are being held and attend one.
You will get to see some beautifull birds up close and personal and see some spectacular flying.


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

ND Cooper said:


> That's a first for me Too!
> Personally, I feel that Pigeons are Alot More Fun to keep, then any other type of Bird.
> I also feel, that Hawks really, are Not, trainable. Not any more trainable then,(example) say, a Lion, or Hippo would be.


Why do you feel that they aren't trainable? What does trainable mean to you?



> Wild animals are just that, Wild Animals.
> I won't support any agressive breed of animal as a pet.


I kind of understand this, but I don't really agree completely.
Any animal is a liability in the hands of the wrong person. It doesn't matter if it is a domestic dog of a calmer breed or a wild caught falcon.
Actually... domestic dogs are probably more frightening. You never know what kind of issues they have. People make them crazy. Horses too. I have known some mean scary stallions... and some good horses that got old and blind and senile and forgot that people were around when they freaked out about something. To be fair, I have been attacked by falconry birds, and assorted cranes and hornbills and such. But domesticated animals still seem like more of a risk to me. Honestly, most people shouldn't have any kind of pet. Wild or not.

I think the (regulated) keeping of wild animals is good in a way I think. We can learn a lot from the animals that can be helpful for conservation. And there are some tasks just better suited to particular species. I know a guy that has used all kinds of wild birds for surveillance and rescue work across the globe. Though he didn't work with falconiforms much, because although they are good at what they do, they aren't as flexible as other birds.

I am kind of against taking falcons from the wild. But... I do like how it is regulated. I think due to the strict regulations, we probably do more good than harm to the birds through falconry. I do think we should strive to have a captive breeding program, instead of taking wild birds if we are going to keep them.



> As far as the training, its more of teaching the bird to associate humans with food. The bird is wild and will never be trained in the way we tend to think of a trained animal. All it learns from the falconer is that if it follows the human it will lead the bird to food.


I disagree with this. The birds don't just follow people, they fly back to your hand. They aren't trained to do tricks... 
But they do hunt animals with out eating them, and let humans take their kill. And they fly with out a leash... Its a lot more than most people's dogs would do.
I do know a guy that just opens up his truck and his birds fly in, and they drive off to go hunting. He can even tell them to go wait by the truck when they are coming back. He doesn't even use jesses with his birds.


I might take up falconry one day. I don't have any interest in hunting with them... but I like the idea of being able to fly a bird outside with out being paranoid that a hawk is going to swoop down and eat it. I couldn't fly pigeons like the racing people do... Thats just too risky for me.


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## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

Kc, Taking Wild Hawks, has NO Effect On the Wild Population, (of Wild Hawks) IT IS CLOSELY MONITORED, By the U.S. Government.
Yea, I believe that Trust me... S$!&#., You Bet!
I've Got A good Idea, If anyone wants to pay their Tax Dollars to Contibute to the Preditor Type Birds in this world, then go for it!
On the other hand, Anyone who Doesn't, want to pay their tax dollars tword preditor type birds, should be able to do that too!
Fair Is Fair. The last I heard, It's a Free country.
CVnon, Have you had first hand knowledge, handleing preditory birds? or is this just hearsay?
Most everyone here has, on a dayly basis, Hands on experiance with Pigeons. 
I guess, what I, and a lot of others here don't understand is, How, Exactly, do You, or Anyone else, Take Wild Preditory Birds, and (Try To) Train them, to do what you want them to do, at any time.
It's not feeseable.
It's Not Even Ethical! 
If you Two, have never Enjoyed Keeping Domestic Pigeons as a Hobby, or a Sport, or even, just for the Fun of it, then, You Are Truly Missing Out on keeping one of the Best, most Reliable, and Extremely Interesting, and Loyal Pets That the World has to offer!
Learn All You Can About Pigeons!
Keep Asking Questions, afterall, it's the only way to learn!
There are many different kinds of people (from the World over) here, that can help you!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

ND Cooper said:


> Kc, Taking Wild Hawks, has NO Effect On the Wild Population, (of Wild Hawks) IT IS CLOSELY MONITORED, By the U.S. Government.
> Yea, I believe that Trust me... S$!&#., You Bet!
> I've Got A good Idea, If anyone wants to pay their Tax Dollars to Contibute to the Preditor Type Birds in this world, then go for it!
> On the other hand, Anyone who Doesn't, want to pay their tax dollars tword preditor type birds, should be able to do that too!
> ...


I can just FEEL YOUR PASSION for pigeons when reading this


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

ND Cooper said:


> CVnon, Have you had first hand knowledge, handleing preditory birds? or is this just hearsay?
> Most everyone here has, on a dayly basis, Hands on experiance with Pigeons.
> I guess, what I, and a lot of others here don't understand is, How, Exactly, do You, or Anyone else, Take Wild Preditory Birds, and (Try To) Train them, to do what you want them to do, at any time.
> It's not feeseable.
> It's Not Even Ethical!


I do have first hand knowledge. I have worked with a wide variety of birds at zoos. I also am getting my masters in animal behavior. So bird learning and training is my specialty. I'm not a falconer, and but I have done some training with them. To me, as long as an animal can learn, it can be trained, therefore any animal can be trained. But training means different things to different people.

As far as how to train wild predatory birds, its pretty simple in concept. Birds like to eat. They will do what you want for food. You can train complex behaviors by asking a the animal to do a little bit more each time. Its called shaping. Read up on operant conditioning if you are interested. (BTW our lovable pigeons were the animals that were used to build the founding concepts in operant conditioning) You don't have to starve the birds, and you can actually "make friends" with them if you put some effort into it, just like you could a pigeon.

What is not ethical about this to you?

Also, keep in mind, many people would think you were crazy for liking pigeons. But you know better. Don't have a close mind to other birds like those people do about pigeons.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

it sounds all very logical, I think the questioning part is , is that, it is a wild animal not meant for keeping, pigeons are domestic "pets" so to speak, so they are different in the keeping part. my father always told me it was wrong to keep a wild animal, and it should live how nature intended, but I know not all can live in the wild if they have an injury, so those would need to be kept from harm. Im not sure if falconry is an exception to this opinion or not, because the birds are able to still fly and do what they are made for, also they are not flock type birds that need alot of interaction like wild parrots do, when captive they do not have to look and search for food which must be nice.


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## Joey P (Mar 19, 2010)

I think it's totally awesome that people that keep pigeons in captivity are passing judement on someone keeping a hawk in captivity.

By your standard of argument, it all depends on the bird type then?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Joey P said:


> I think it's totally awesome that people that keep pigeons in captivity are passing judement on someone keeping a hawk in captivity.
> 
> By your standard of argument, it all depends on the bird type then?


one is a wild bird and the other is already a domesticated speicies(pigeons)... there is a diff., example, like... I would not give my child a badger for easter, but perhaps a bunny rabbit would be better as it is a domesticated animal... does that make more sense to you?


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

Interesting discussion.

I think that as long as the animal is healthy and happy, no one is in danger from the animal, and keeping it does not harm its wild population, then it is okay.

The first two statements rules out a lot of animals, both wild and domestic, for most people. For me it is really dependent on the individual situation, not the species.

That being said, I don't see any reason why anyone would want a giant constrictor, or a tiger or something completely impractical and dangerous. Its not like they don't make snakes and cats that are more suitable to captivity.

On the note of domestication. What about parrots? Aside from cocktails and parakeets I wouldn't begin to call pet parrots domesticated. There are also lot of other captive bred wild birds as pets. Does it make a difference to you if it was born in captivity?

And have you ever had a wild pigeon? I've got one. She is wonderful, just like my other pigeons. I really can't tell a difference.

And again, I don't completely disagree. I just think we should be making judgments on whether a person can have an animal based on the person, not the animal.


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

At one point in human history, no animals were domesticated. 
Domestication is an ongoing process. 
Please take a look at the standards for different breeds from the 1800's and now and you will see a great deal of change and numerous new breeds.
Most breeds of common domestic animals including pigeons, chickens, cattle, cats and dogs were not around a few hundred years ago.
I believe our lives are much richer because some of our ancestors took in wild creatures and bred them for a purpose.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Did not know much about falconry but sure did enjoy reading everyone's imput and now I know more about it....Thanks.....c.hert


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I don't know a whole lot about this, but didn't the "enemy" train and use hawks to take down our pigeons during the wars? So how is it so different?


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## wayne f (Oct 25, 2009)

The British also used Falcons to bring down messenger pigeons during the war! Big problem how do you tell a german bird from a British?

Just my opinion but why worry about what your neighbor is doing. It dosen't matter to me if my neighbor is a falconer or a master of the chess game, just none of my business.
Wayne


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

wayne f said:


> *The British also used Falcons to bring down **messenger pigeons during the war! Big problem how do you tell a german bird from a British?*
> 
> Just my opinion but why worry about what your neighbor is doing. It dosen't matter to me if my neighbor is a falconer or a master of the chess game, just none of my business.
> Wayne


LOL  Good point!


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## Possum Fat (Mar 18, 2010)

wayne f said:


> Big problem how do you tell a german bird from a British?


Its accent.


My neighbor is a falconer. This guy takes better care of this birds than himself. Twice a year, inspectors come to his house and make sure his birds and their living quarters are up to excellent standards. I only wish I could say the same about a lot of pigeon lofts I've visited over the years!

I dont put birds of prey or pigeons over one another. Both in my opinion are regal birds who's relationship with mankind goes back thousands of years.


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## Crab_Shrapnel (Jan 17, 2010)

I think that all birds are special. I don't know what it is, but the way they soar through the sky,it's magical. And I think everyone should have a way to connect with these marvelous creatures. I just don't want his to eat mine


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I just don't want his to eat mine


Exactly. 

I love all birds. I hate the fact that some birds eat other birds but don't want them to starve either. It's a puzzlement.

I try to protect the birds in my care but not by harming any other animal.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

cvarnon said:


> Interesting discussion.
> 
> I think that as long as the animal is healthy and happy, no one is in danger from the animal, and keeping it does not harm its wild population, then it is okay.
> 
> ...


it makes a difference to me, and your right parrots are not domesticated, i have alot of parrots that i have adopted or rescued , i would never buy a baby one no matter how much i would love to have a cute sweet little baby.
the birds i have could never be returned to wild, they would never survive.

the only thing i have against falconry is that they are taking a perfectly healthy individual from the wild, im sad for the individual.

i have been to shows and they amaze me and they help educate people about these amazing creatures and help the future of the them as a species in turn helping all wild creatures.

i'm always much happier seeing a show that has birds that were injured and unable to ever be released because of their injury or improper upbringing by well meaning people.
many of them bond with their handlers, last one i went to at a wildlife conference was amzing.
they had a golden eagle that was bonded to the woman, her husband had to go to the far end of the room cause the eagle hated him and all the other birds, she snuggled with the woman just like my parrot will snuggle with me, especially during breeding season.
i'm sure falconers have to develop that same relationship with their birds, why they need to be taken young an older bird is going to much harder to build a bond with


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Feefo said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I love all birds. I hate the fact that some birds eat other birds but don't want them to starve either. It's a puzzlement.
> 
> I try to protect the birds in my care but not by harming any other animal.


i hate that they eat birds too, i chase em from my yard because i have so many feeders and many of the birds that come are birds i actually raised or save, i don't want to set up a buffet for hawks but i save them just same as a little songbird, but i would never release one here or have them in the same room as the other species


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## Aviephile (Oct 25, 2009)

Hi All,
Not an arguement. I'm not going to pass judgement on any of the views posted. I just want to throw a little information out there for consideration... I used to breed Domestic Ferrets for the local pet shops. They are a true domestic animal. There are similar animals in the wild (American Black Ferret, which is a different species), but there has never been a wild Domestic Ferret. It is a hybrid, developed in the far east a few thousand years ago. I understand that the Chicken has a similar history...
Also consider that, through selective breeding and hybridization (and, now, gene splicing), none of the common "domestic" animals or plants have ever really existed in the "wild".
Just food for thought...
Best Regards! Bill
p.s. I just banded my sixth baby racing pigeon, ever! Looking forward to Youngbird Season!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

I personally dont think hawks need any more help surviving thru the winters then they already get living off the field birds and mice visiting bird feeders around the countryside  I for one would like to see alot less of them around my backyard on a daily basis .. if only they were more geared towards keeping the balance in the wild world and not so addicted to eatting my flock of pigeons I would be fine with them


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

wayne f said:


> The British also used Falcons to bring down messenger pigeons during the war! Big problem how do you tell a german bird from a British?
> 
> Just my opinion but why worry about what your neighbor is doing. It dosen't matter to me if my neighbor is a falconer or a master of the chess game, just none of my business.
> Wayne


I think I have made a decsion on this falonry issue, and this is also what I came up with...lol...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Possum Fat said:


> Its accent.
> 
> 
> My neighbor is a falconer. This guy takes better care of this birds than himself. Twice a year, inspectors come to his house and make sure his birds and their living quarters are up to excellent standards. I only wish I could say the same about a lot of pigeon lofts I've visited over the years!
> ...




that makes me lol...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sure there are a lot of preconceived and uneducated opinions about falconry just as there is about pigeons and their domestication.

I myself wouldn't mind watching these beautiful creatures fly (as long as it is nowhere near my birds) just as I do enjoy watching my birds fly. 

I would certainly make sure that if my neighbor was into falconry, that my birds had ABSOLUTELY NO view of any of the birds. That would certainly bring on major stress levels to the point of depleting all calcium, B Complex and probiotic reserves! WOE!


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I caught sight of an EAGLE sitting in a dogwood tree staking out my loft! He was magnificent but I was so glad he couldn't get to my birds!


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## grau geist (Jan 17, 2009)

ND Cooper said:


> .
> I guess, what I, and a lot of others here don't understand is, How, Exactly, do You, or Anyone else, Take Wild Preditory Birds, and (Try To) Train them, to do what you want them to do, at any time.
> It's not feeseable.
> It's Not Even Ethical!
> ...


Grau Geist.


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## grau geist (Jan 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> I personally dont think hawks need any more help surviving thru the winters then they already get living off the field birds and mice visiting bird feeders around the countryside  I for one would like to see alot less of them around my backyard on a daily basis .. if only they were more geared towards keeping the balance in the wild world and not so addicted to eatting my flock of pigeons I would be fine with them


Ummmm, they are geared towards keeping a balance in the world. Have you not seen literally 100s of feral pigeons on top of a gas station making the biggest mess on the planet. Do you like mice in your house? I guarantee without some of these BOP we would have alot more of them. My parents have bird feeders out year round, and we do like to see the different birds that come by their house to eat, but we also like to see the BOP sitting on the fence. They are beautiful birds, huge, graceful, eyesight is out of this world, and yet most people on here don't like them because they eat their precious pigeons, I'm sure you have more in your loft. 

Don't get me wrong I like my birds, but some folks on here need to open their eyes and not be so breed blind.


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## Guest (May 4, 2010)

grau geist said:


> Ummmm, they are geared towards keeping a balance in the world. Have you not seen literally 100s of feral pigeons on top of a gas station making the biggest mess on the planet. Do you like mice in your house? I guarantee without some of these BOP we would have alot more of them. My parents have bird feeders out year round, and we do like to see the different birds that come by their house to eat, but we also like to see the BOP sitting on the fence. They are beautiful birds, huge, graceful, eyesight is out of this world, and yet most people on here don't like them because they eat their precious pigeons, I'm sure you have more in your loft.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I like my birds, but some folks on here need to open their eyes and not be so breed blind.


 you seem to have missed the whole jist of my comment.. I specificly stated I wished they would eat more mice and wild birds and not my birds ,where is the balance in them eating my birds over wild birds and mice ?? I dont care how many I have in my loft ,everyone of mine counts to me !

and your breed blind comment doesnt even make sense, you can have your opinions without attacking other peoples opinions too but I see you feel your opinon is the only one that counts


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## Seijun (Apr 14, 2010)

I wanted to offer my 2 cents.
I grew up in a falconry family. My parents kept and flew wild-caught passage and fully adult birds, bred, hatched, and raised hawks/falcons, and raised wild-taken chicks. We've had red-tails, goshawks, Harris's, peregrines, merlins, coopers, etc. Our birds were raised for hunting and even reintroduction (the peregrines). The different bird species all have their different personalities. The falcons and some of the smaller hawks tend to be the least intelligent and their relationship with their human is largely food-based. However, the larger birds do form much more complex relationships with their handlers. The Harris's were by far my favorite. Some bird species hunt from the handlers fist and are released when prey is spotted because they don't follow well when loose (i.e.-a coopers will just sit in the same tree, and peregrines hunt in open spaces so they need the handlers fist to sit on until prey is found, or else they fly off to find their own prey without us). Harris's will follow like a dog through the trees. When they got tired, they would fly back to the truck and wait for us to come back! We would open the back of the truck, and the birds would just hop right into their carriers to go home. 
I think falconry is very misunderstood. People imagine birds stuck in tiny cages for weeks on end, only allowed out when forced to hunt for their owners. A good falconer does not keep a bird in a "cage" but rather a "mew" (its like a pigeon loft). The birds are taken out to fly and hunt regularly. If they aren't, as is the case with some breeding pairs, a very large flight chamber is provided. We had three large flight chambers for our breeding pairs. The largest was roughly 3 stories tall. 
Additionally, there is is no forcing a BOP to hunt or do any sort of tricks. I think the greatest testament to falconry is the fact that these birds are allowed to fly completely loose on a frequent basis with every opportunity to fly for the hills and never return if they wanted to. But they don't (at least not usually!). In my experience, when a bird does take off, it's typically one that isn't used to outdoor flight yet and was let loose by an inexperienced falconer. The bird, having no idea what is going on, just takes off flying. 

IMO, "wild" and "domestic" has little to do with anything (our hand-raised Harris's were tamer than most of our free-range homing pigeons). Pet pij's and doves, for the most part, only act domestic because you are around them all the time. How tame do you think they would be if raised with no human contact? In my experience, the only BIG different between a domestic species and a wild species is that the domestic one is more dependent on humans for survival, and only then because it often lacks the instincts or physical abilities needed to survive 100% on its own (a feral dog or cat is as wild in behavior as a "wild" animal, but they continue to hang out around people because they can't survive in the woods). And even that isn't always true. Feral horses get along just fine without people and prefer to live away from them. 
I do believe that domestic animals are much more predisposed to being tame to people than a wild animal, and that they also tend to be much, much easier to care for and to raise to be tame, but my point is that a domestic animal is not tame or content being around people by default. We still have to work to get them that way. 

"Domestic" pigeons and doves have the same wings, ability, and desire to fly as the BOP do.


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi all 
Just caught up on the thread, fascinating read! I would like to bring a different perspective; 'falconry' has exsisted for thousands of years and in the Middle East it is a highly popular sport. It's just breath taking to see a large arab falcon fly and hunt. As for training, could you imagine getting a pigeon to fly, fetch some seed/grain and fly back TO YOUR HAND and give it to you?..~_^...see a majestic falcon do that, and you will learn to respect the art that is falconry. I realize I am talking about 'falcons' that are not from the US but you guys can search the net about it. It's been around a long time and the falconers' I met bonded with their birds to an amazing extent. Imagine having your pigeon hop on to your arm on command, without food...now imagine that when the falcon is FLYING HIGH..!...sorry, just had to bring an international perspective to this. Peace, YaSin


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

YaSin11 said:


> Hi all
> Imagine having your pigeon hop on to your arm on command, without food...


All my birds will do this.
...
But its mostly because they are hand raised... and probably just want sex!


I do agree, good falconry is pretty impressive.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Dogs,Cats, MAN all agressive.


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## Seijun (Apr 14, 2010)

cvarnon said:


> All my birds will do this.
> But its mostly because they are hand raised... and probably just want sex!


(I know my last male pij did!)


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## Seijun (Apr 14, 2010)

Ross Howard said:


> Dogs,Cats, MAN all agressive.


Agreed. When was the last time anyone was killed by hawk or falcon? The people who do get injured by them are almost always the handlers themselves, and it almost always seems to involve a hungry bird and someone not watching where their hands are!

Becoming a falconer is actually extremely difficult. Besides the special permits, materials, and housing required by law to keep a BOP and to hunt, wannabe falconers actually have to be sponsored by a general or master falconer and pass a test. An apprentice under a sponsor is usually only allowed to own a kestrel or red-tail hawk, and only one at a time. A person must be an apprentice for two years before becoming a falconer.


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## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

I think that It's really Great that other Bird Enthusests (sp) are so interested in Pigeons! 
After having Pigeons, as Pets, (backyard birds for Enjoyment) I can say, with all honesty, that I don't have to look any further for a better, or more interesting species of pet bird to keep! 
Now, and probly for a long time to come, I'll continue to (Practice What I Preach) just rattle a can, with some seeds in it, or not, and sit back, and watch my Pigeons return Home! (Now That's Training!) 
I don't have to take any from the wild (they usually come around the loft anyways), or chase after them, or weigh them, or purchase a license to keep them, or, put a hood on their heads, or have my flashers on, when I transport them, or have the Government come and check up on The Birds...., or Even feel sorry for them! 
In a nutshell, Pigeons ARE a Success Story! 
Sorry, but, I'm just Not Interested in keeping birds of prey! (Too Lazy, I guess!) All Around, They Are Too Much Of A Pain In The A__ !!! Must be Expensive Too!
I have plenty of very interesting activities to increse my heart rate, and intellect (sp). 
If some folks want to chase after birds, as a hobby, of course, then go for it, I don't have any interest in doing so!  
The last thing that I would like to see is a lot of beautiful, majestic birds of prey flying around under human control, talk about total lack of freedom!
Now, to go and feed my pet mosquito! (sp)!


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