# Recessive Red?



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Is this bird recessive red?  I thought their flights were supposed to be red too? and their tail? 


http://www.eggbid.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=1216700255


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks like a red grizzle to me. Red t-patterns, or I guess what you could call dark red checks, look like rec. reds, but without the red flights and tail. Maybe this is a red t-pattern with grizzle?
Some people have mottled recessives though, so I don't know  They seem to know their colors pretty good, since that loft normally has the unusual colored racers.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

It looks to be a recessive red with white flights and tail. It also looks to carry undergrizzle. It's obviously a juvenile. A lot of these birds will molt into a deeper red in their adult plumage. 

Recessive red can have other pied factors with it - except for baldhead (they may carry baldhead, but for some reason you won't find a baldhead recessive red, they will always molt to sort of a mottle look.)


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Renee*



Lovebirds said:


> Is this bird recessive red?  I thought their flights were supposed to be red too? and their tail?
> 
> 
> http://www.eggbid.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=1216700255


You're thinking of a recessive red self, like the roller that I posted here awhile back. The bird could have one red feather and still be a recessive red. You might not call it a red but that would be it's genetic color and worth mentioning to describe the bird.

This bird is probably everything that the seller and Frank say that it is.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

It is resessive red But shows the mikly facter perhaps where white appears Now some moult out to show more red If muelman ressesive reds It probably will moult in more red and have some white feathers also I bet it will look different in 4 months pretty young now. Ressesive reds can show the milky white later moult better red. And also age and moult in white where red once was. Pigeons are like cracker jacks a surprise in every EGG though.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Milky?*

I don't see milky. Milky would likely lighten a recessive red to a near pink color. It doesn't show up as white markings, it blends with the base color like a lavender Lahore, which is milky and spread blue (black).

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well I use the term milky because they used to call the white devopling in ressesive reds a milky white. They used to classify white in 3 color depths of white So the term fit the process And also as stated the white in this bird can very well moult out to ressesive red self or mismarked ressesive red showing some solid white pied facter. They use to relate where very good even colored resessive reds even good colored for 3 to 4 years then moult in a few white feathers was because the bird carried a milky facter. It may hold up or not I learned this back in the 1970s When I also raised red and yellow schietti modenas. And muelman type race birds sure can breed this type of of red that will moult in better colorplus muelman reds seem to carry less blue throught thew flights and tail. Now most any race red will not be the deep chesnut resessive red as good bred reds get. Such as modena or carnue even tumbler red. And some birds called red would be cassified as gold the in between resessive red and good yellow. Where as red improves yellow in depth of color .and yellow hurts red. gold shows good depth just a shade away from the chesnut depth of color. Might look back if you are into reading and see some old quotes from some of the color breeders I can remember for sure But Quinns note book from the 70s iI believe shows some color ideas of white Dont qote me though As I find these books rather not usefull As I put quality first color second. As the easyer of the 2 is getting color The hardest is breeding quality Color with out quality is like a car without tires can not get any where just sit and look until the tires are put on.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I might add Those that try and dig deeper into color breeding are the reason so many breeds have the differnet colors they have now days. so I respect that And know color cross over and color setting is a slow redevelopment that takes years of hard work. Though I would add this so I am not misunderstood about my statement That I Prefure quality over color.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Robert*



re lee said:


> Well I use the term milky because they used to call the white devopling in ressesive reds a milky white. They used to classify white in 3 color depths of white So the term fit the process And also as stated the white in this bird can very well moult out to ressesive red self or mismarked ressesive red showing some solid white pied facter. They use to relate where very good even colored resessive reds even good colored for 3 to 4 years then moult in a few white feathers was because the bird carried a milky facter. It may hold up or not I learned this back in the 1970s When I also raised red and yellow schietti modenas. And muelman type race birds sure can breed this type of of red that will moult in better colorplus muelman reds seem to carry less blue throught thew flights and tail. Now most any race red will not be the deep chesnut resessive red as good bred reds get. Such as modena or carnue even tumbler red. And some birds called red would be cassified as gold the in between resessive red and good yellow. Where as red improves yellow in depth of color .and yellow hurts red. gold shows good depth just a shade away from the chesnut depth of color. Might look back if you are into reading and see some old quotes from some of the color breeders I can remember for sure But Quinns note book from the 70s iI believe shows some color ideas of white Dont qote me though As I find these books rather not usefull As I put quality first color second. As the easyer of the 2 is getting color The hardest is breeding quality Color with out quality is like a car without tires can not get any where just sit and look until the tires are put on.


We just disagree on terminology. You use mostly terms that are familiar to racing homer breeders and that's OK if you breed homers. The homer people probably know what you mean. I'm not now nor have I ever been a racer or homer breeder. As you have stated numerous times, you breed not for color but for racing ability. If you want to win races and breed for color above racing ability, you will never win races. Show people should practice this as well and worry more about show quality than color but color is often a strong consideration and good color adds to the points of the bird.
I am mostly a color breeder I suppose but I breed rollers and want them to perform also. If they would not win a competition roll doesn't really bother me but I want them to do well in the air, as well as have interesting colors. I am not interested in any competition, only beautiful birds that roll. Knowing all that I can about color and heredity is very important to me so that I understand how to produce the colors that I desire and maybe even to make something new. This is more interesting to me than winning a race, a show or a competition of any kind. For reasons like this, the Quinn book and reading about genetics is absolutely invaluable to me. This is something that you can study for a lifetime and never completely have it figured out.
Anyway, the bird that originally began this conversation may very well turn more red over time. It could also turn more white. This still wouldn't have anything to do with milky factor which is a gene that gets it's name from the appearance of being soaked in milk. It is responsible for Lavender Lahores and Powder Blue and Powder Silver Fantails. It is a very attractive gene to play with.
Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I showed birds also for several years. But As i said i put quality first And the colors I bred were good colors BUT learned many years ago You can have a bird of different color BUT has the needed quality you need in your line so you use that bird and do not worry about color as you will get color back. Look in Guinns old notebook on white. I know i read it some where years ago And milky white Was a facter that showed in some birds. You breed for different colors in your birds and have less concern on performance WHICH is fine Many people breed for quality and color As yes in show color classes must meet the color requirement Unless the bird is say dull but so much better in the other points. I used to like pretty birds when I was young. Then relized to compete you had to have both good birds that looked good in there color. Or the color was just something with feathers could not win a 1 bird show or fly around the block without getting lost. And beings most coloprs are set in most breeds There is the chance you may develop a new color sometime. GOOD deal on your breed there is no color that will reduce its performance As long as the abilty to roll deep enough is there heck have you thought I gave my Guinn not books away to people that want to work on colored birdsyears ago. You may not have seen it But I have I saw when people began interest in colors and hidden colors in there birds Jump into Quinns concepts and destroy there whole stud of birds Because looking into hidden colors also reproduces the hidden faults that is going backwards from where some else went forwads. When they bred up the birds. Records help with the past and the future in a family of birds. In show birds what you see is what you work with You look at the records but have to see the bird in hand on what it has for you to work with. AND some top breeder birds would lose a 1 bird show but carry the needed offset to produce winning birds. Just like your rolllers when you mate 2 deep rolling bird together you get birds that crash So you off set those birds to control how deep the birds roll dont you. Pigeon keeping is about off setting faults to balance the whole All birds have faults you just off set them to improve them Race birds the same The winner of the race may never breed any winners the consistant bird that over the race coarse though did not all win but was stead fast on returns is the better breeder. Then cross strain lines to increase endurence for different types of races. And so on The whole art of breeding pigeons is a sience. As with trying to understand colors after ther the color is painted on its there just maintain it and improve towards quality And to many colors is also to much work to maintain in any loft. Why because you need so many birds of each color to keep the line going Few colors and then color outcross for quality purpose is better. Now such as barreed birds several colors will go hand in hand so a person can use several colors to work on there barred birds But selfs you get the color set backs for a few years. So its not real wise to keep many colors not unless for research projects or Other as I believe a person needs 5 pair of each color to maintain a color line of birds Unless those colors a family grouped colors as bars ,ash red family Soft color grouped . but thats my idea From what I have seen over ther years. Now with no color worries say like race birds Then you look at performance breeding not color breeding. And I have said for years a race bird that is pink with yellow polka dots if it raced well other people would want that type of bird. N OW we know there will never be a bird that color but It means As long as any color has the needed quality to perform at the top be it show ,race , tumble, or roll. Then that is the goal that people seek. The people that research colors and try to develop colors further are needed as they are the ones that crossed over colors founded new reconized colors And dig deep into the development of every line of pigeon. Without those people we would have very few colors and very few different breeds As breed crossing made new breeds or modified class breeds of pigeons so keep your concpets going strong as You are needed in the pigeon world To keep people like me intersted in pigeons. As like me I am lazy I want my color and then I will work on improving it. Where like you you make the color For me to work on. Kudos for your aspects.


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## bigislerollers (Jan 20, 2008)

re lee said:


> I showed birds also for several years. But As i said i put quality first And the colors I bred were good colors BUT learned many years ago You can have a bird of different color BUT has the needed quality you need in your line so you use that bird and do not worry about color as you will get color back. Look in Guinns old notebook on white. I know i read it some where years ago And milky white Was a facter that showed in some birds. You breed for different colors in your birds and have less concern on performance WHICH is fine Many people breed for quality and color As yes in show color classes must meet the color requirement Unless the bird is say dull but so much better in the other points. I used to like pretty birds when I was young. Then relized to compete you had to have both good birds that looked good in there color. Or the color was just something with feathers could not win a 1 bird show or fly around the block without getting lost. And beings most coloprs are set in most breeds There is the chance you may develop a new color sometime. GOOD deal on your breed there is no color that will reduce its performance As long as the abilty to roll deep enough is there heck have you thought I gave my Guinn not books away to people that want to work on colored birdsyears ago. You may not have seen it But I have I saw when people began interest in colors and hidden colors in there birds Jump into Quinns concepts and destroy there whole stud of birds Because looking into hidden colors also reproduces the hidden faults that is going backwards from where some else went forwads. When they bred up the birds. Records help with the past and the future in a family of birds. In show birds what you see is what you work with You look at the records but have to see the bird in hand on what it has for you to work with. AND some top breeder birds would lose a 1 bird show but carry the needed offset to produce winning birds. Just like your rolllers when you mate 2 deep rolling bird together you get birds that crash So you off set those birds to control how deep the birds roll dont you. Pigeon keeping is about off setting faults to balance the whole All birds have faults you just off set them to improve them Race birds the same The winner of the race may never breed any winners the consistant bird that over the race coarse though did not all win but was stead fast on returns is the better breeder. Then cross strain lines to increase endurence for different types of races. And so on The whole art of breeding pigeons is a sience. As with trying to understand colors after ther the color is painted on its there just maintain it and improve towards quality And to many colors is also to much work to maintain in any loft. Why because you need so many birds of each color to keep the line going Few colors and then color outcross for quality purpose is better. Now such as barreed birds several colors will go hand in hand so a person can use several colors to work on there barred birds But selfs you get the color set backs for a few years. So its not real wise to keep many colors not unless for research projects or Other as I believe a person needs 5 pair of each color to maintain a color line of birds Unless those colors a family grouped colors as bars ,ash red family Soft color grouped . but thats my idea From what I have seen over ther years. Now with no color worries say like race birds Then you look at performance breeding not color breeding. And I have said for years a race bird that is pink with yellow polka dots if it raced well other people would want that type of bird. N OW we know there will never be a bird that color but It means As long as any color has the needed quality to perform at the top be it show ,race , tumble, or roll. Then that is the goal that people seek. The people that research colors and try to develop colors further are needed as they are the ones that crossed over colors founded new reconized colors And dig deep into the development of every line of pigeon. Without those people we would have very few colors and very few different breeds As breed crossing made new breeds or modified class breeds of pigeons so keep your concpets going strong as You are needed in the pigeon world To keep people like me intersted in pigeons. As like me I am lazy I want my color and then I will work on improving it. Where like you you make the color For me to work on. Kudos for your aspects.




What does this have to do with the recessive red (*that sure does not look like it carries the milky gene*)that this thread was about??????


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Aloha Dexter*

Not much to do with the original thread, once again. This is yet just another discussion that started with someone asking a simple question. It happens all the time here and probably every other discussion site. Probably a bit confusing to the thread originator. I try not to steal a thread or get off the subject at hand but I've done it to people too. The discussion did arise from the bird in the photo at least.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

bigislerollers said:


> What does this have to do with the recessive red (*that sure does not look like it carries the milky gene*)that this thread was about??????


It did get off the thread but went to someone elses direction. This bird being a bid bird wont show back up after it moults more in 3 or 4 months But I still think it will moult in mor red. AND agin when I raised modenas and some of the reds would Moult in some white they called it a milky white Back then. To keep it on this bird well it can not stay as the bird will not be shown not unlesss someone here buys the bird so no moult will tell the rest of story.


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