# Not sure if the embryo is dead inside the egg please help



## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

Hi on Saturday I found an egg on my doorstep, I am not sure how it got there but I couldn't find a nest nearby. The egg was still warm so I brought it inside.

I kept it on a heated blanket in a box throughout Saturday and on Sunday morning went out and purchased an incubator. 

On Saturday I candled the egg, there were lots of veins and I could see a lot of movement.

In went in the incubator on Sunday morning and was doing well. However, early this morning when I checked on it there was no movement inside the egg at all and when I checked again later the dark 'shadow' inside was in exactly the same position so I don't think it's moved at all. 

There are still lots of veins visable as well as the air sac, although a new thicker vein has appeared at the top near the sac (it isn't a ring).

Do you think the embryo has died or is this normal for it not to move at all for a while.

Would all the veins go if it had died?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

Here are some photos of the front and back of the egg if it helps.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

As of now it looks viable, it has a nice air pocket.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

becki87 said:


> Hi on Saturday I found an egg on my doorstep, I am not sure how it got there but I couldn't find a nest nearby. The egg was still warm so I brought it inside.
> 
> I kept it on a heated blanket in a box throughout Saturday and on Sunday morning went out and purchased an incubator.
> 
> ...


*We do not recommend anyone hatching eggs unless they know exactly how it is done, and if you are prepared to feed a hatchling pigeon, pigeon babies require "pigeon milk" the first days, and they do not gape like other baby birds.

please do the research: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/incubation-when-there-is-no-alternative-4968.html 

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/caringforababypigeon.htm *


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

Skyeking said:


> *We do not recommend anyone hatching eggs unless they know exactly how it is done, and if you are prepared to feed a hatchling pigeon, pigeon babies require "pigeon milk" the first days, and they do not gape like other baby birds.
> 
> please do the research: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/incubation-when-there-is-no-alternative-4968.html
> 
> http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/caringforababypigeon.htm *


Thanks, I have done lots of research and have purchase Kaytee extract ready for if it does hatch. The egg was abandoned and it would have certainly died if I just left it. No shelters here would take it because it was a pigeon, one even told me to just kill it (in the UK pigeons are deemed as vermin) so I've tried to give it the best chance.

I just wasn't sure if it was still ok because of the lack of movement which is why I made this post.


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

Whytpigeon said:


> As of now it looks viable, it has a nice air pocket.


Yeah this is the thing the air pocket is good and there are lots of veins but the 'shadows' have been in the exact same position for over 15 hours.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

becki87 said:


> Yeah this is the thing the air pocket is good and there are lots of veins but the 'shadows' have been in the exact same position for over 15 hours.


As long as the veins are there it is alive. As it grows the less handling the better, just turn it a few times a day. I agree it is hard to keep a new hatchling of this type living. If they lack the pigeon milk they have very few immunities and can succumb to a number of illnesses. But we as a society pick and choose what life is more important and can be discarded. This is you're choice in the end.


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

Whytpigeon said:


> As long as the veins are there it is alive. As it grows the less handling the better, just turn it a few times a day. I agree it is hard to keep a new hatchling of this type living. If they lack the pigeon milk they have very few immunities and can succumb to a number of illnesses. But we as a society pick and choose what life is more important and can be discarded. This is you're choice in the end.



OK thank you for your help. Can you tell from the picture how far along it is? I.e how many days until it might hatch (all being well).


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

becki87 said:


> OK thank you for your help. Can you tell from the picture how far along it is? I.e how many days until it might hatch (all being well).


Incubation till hatch day is usually about 19 days, I've had some go longer' like 21 days. So I would guess this egg is about not quite half way there,so about a week or so into its development. Just a guess though. How long has it had heat on it could be the answer to this too. But it looks older than a few days to me.


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

Whytpigeon said:


> Incubation till hatch day is usually about 19 days, I've had some go longer' like 21 days. So I would guess this egg is about not quite half way there,so about a week or so into its development. Just a guess though. How long has it had heat on it could be the answer to this too. But it looks older than a few days to me.


I found it on Saturday and it was put in a heated blanket. It was moved to an incubator on Sunday. When I found it, it was warm to the touch so I don't know how long it might have been in the nest.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

becki87 said:


> I found it on Saturday and it was put in a heated blanket. It was moved to an incubator on Sunday. When I found it, it was warm to the touch so I don't know how long it might have been in the nest.


It could be an egg that got stuck on the hens feather pocket and came off when she landed on the porch, plus it is warm out so it kept it suspended until you found it. Guess is 5 to 7 days.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

becki87 said:


> Thanks, I have done lots of research and have purchase Kaytee extract ready for if it does hatch. The egg was abandoned and it would have certainly died if I just left it. No shelters here would take it because it was a pigeon, one even told me to just kill it (in the UK pigeons are deemed as vermin) so I've tried to give it the best chance.
> 
> I just wasn't sure if it was still ok because of the lack of movement which is why I made this post.


*Thank you for your reply. Have you seen this website? This is a UK pigeon friendly website that has loads of resources (pigeon friendly-rescue centers) to find help and info on diseases, injury, facebook rescue help, feeding baby pigeons and much more. http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/rescuecentres.htm *


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

The veins are now fading inside and there has been zero movement. I think it may have died.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Really no reason to bring a baby into the world unless you are experienced in raising baby pigeons. To much can go wrong, and to many have suffered needlessly and end up dying because most people don't make good pigeon parents. Really not fair to the poor hatchling. Different if it was a bird already here.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yeah one day I noticed when my hen was incubating infertile eggs, she went to feeder and left just one egg behind. I wondered where is the second one, monitored closely and it was stuck under her feathers, I thought it may fall and break so I took it from her and kept with another. But I saw it just once and never again. 
Sorry for the poor chick which ended up like this but really hard for an inexperienced person to raise chicks from day 1. Most of them die anyway.


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Really no reason to bring a baby into the world unless you are experienced in raising baby pigeons. To much can go wrong, and to many have suffered needlessly and end up dying because most people don't make good pigeon parents. Really not fair to the poor hatchling. Different if it was a bird already here.



If I had left it where it was it would have died, at least I gave it a chance. I did everything possible to help it even buying an incubator.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Better it dies in the beginning, rather than after hatching, and suffering many mistakes that humans make in trying to raise them, and dying anyway. It would have been hardly developed when you found it, so would have been better then. What are you saving it for? Life in a cage? Not exactly how it would have lived its life. Sometimes just better to let nature have it's way. I know you feel that you were giving it a chance, but some times things are just better off when no one interferes.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

becki87 said:


> The veins are now fading inside and there has been zero movement. I think it may have died.


If you see a blood ring you know it has quit growing. Embryos do not move around much, They just grow and fill the egg. I can understand you're desire to save the egg. It means you are a caring person.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

becki87 said:


> If I had left it where it was it would have died, at least I gave it a chance. I did everything possible to help it even buying an incubator.


Thanks for trying to save him and give him a chance. It is all about how we feel. Some of us just can't see any creature dying and I am with you in this, tho I know I am wrong. Many times they are better off alone like if they are an egg. When they hatch and see the world and then don't get what they need to survive, they die terrible deaths, so most of us don't recommend trying it. 
But many won't go by our recommendations because their hearts don't allow them to let them die just like that. My personal opinion is we should honour everyone's feelings because everyone is different, If someone can see them dying thinking about their worse future using their minds, someone may have to try saving them thinking about their better present. It's all how we think and feel, again say everyone is different. 
I appreciate how you bought an incubator and Kaytee exact for saving a chick and thank you for your kind heart for creatures. 
I can't say Jay is wrong but she thinks differently and I honour her opinion as well, as she is very caring and rescue many but in her experience and what I witness here, really it is very difficult, almost next to impossible to save and raise a chick from day 1.
So think of both of the sides of a coin when you try saving any creature. 
Again I am thankful to you that you did very best for a chick and you really deserve this thank you. Many just leave even injured /sick birds to their destiny and don't try to give a helping hand.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

If it does hatch and you need help pm me. I raised my three from eggs and will willingly try to help you if I can. x


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

FredaH said:


> If it does hatch and you need help pm me. I raised my three from eggs and will willingly try to help you if I can. x


Thanks so much for the offer. Unfortunately it has died


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Perhaps it just wasn't to be Becki, at least you were there for it if it could have made it eh? Perhaps you could buy a couple of chicken eggs sometime in the future, there are some lovely breeds available but you have to chance that you could end up with two cockerels, you'd also need a coop and a predator proof run. I have friends with chickens and they're rather sweet. You do need to devote time to them though and research their care before deciding if you can raise them properly. x


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## becki87 (Jul 12, 2016)

FredaH said:


> Perhaps it just wasn't to be Becki, at least you were there for it if it could have made it eh? Perhaps you could buy a couple of chicken eggs sometime in the future, there are some lovely breeds available but you have to chance that you could end up with two cockerels, you'd also need a coop and a predator proof run. I have friends with chickens and they're rather sweet. You do need to devote time to them though and research their care before deciding if you can raise them properly. x


This is definitely something I will be doing in the near future. I rescued four battery hens a number of years ago and they lived a long happy life and were great, such amazing personalities. I plan to do this again soon.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*These instructions were given because of inquiries, but incubating should be done only if the following criteria is met:


1. If eggs have been brooded and there is an embryo. An egg that has just been laid is simply an egg, it can be fertile or not, but without incubation there is no life, as there is no cell division, therefore can be discarded.

2. Parents are gone.

3.There are absolutely no adoptive parents around that are at this time sitting on either one real egg, or two dummy eggs, as they would be the best candidates for hatching and raising.

4. You have done everything in your power to seek help from a rehabber or other knowledgable expert.

5. You have done all the homework and educated yourself on proper incubation for pigeon eggs and know the proper formula and environment and feeding techniques for a new hatchling and have all the supplies ready to go.
*********************************************************************





Since it's breeding season I thought it timely to take a close look at Matthew Vriends "Hand Feeding and Raising Baby Birds" on the subject of incubation. Once in a while it needs to be attempted when there is no alternative.

Incubation Requirements:

temperature: 98 - 100 degrees; not more than 104 degrees; any variance on the low side.
Temperature will cool briefly during turning sessions.

humidity: 55% on a hygrometer; light warm water mist spray on the last four days.
During incubation the egg must lose a certain amount of weight in the form of moisture, so that the air sac expands. At the end of the incubation cycle the egg will have lost between 13% and 15% of its weight. If the evaporation proceeds too quickly, it will become too dry for the embryo will not develop satisfactorily.

egg turning: at least three or more times a day (use a clean cloth for home made incubators since the shell is a semipermeable membrane which must remain clean). Turn the egg a quarter turn only each time. 

The embryo floats toward the upper surface of the egg. If it is not turned it may stick there. Also, turning stimulates movement in the embryo which stimulates growth. Do not turn the eggs in the last 3 days before the expected hatch date, so the chick can gain a favorable position for pipping the egg and making a clean exit (not drowning in albumen).

time frame: 17 - 18 days after egg laying.

ventilation: Egg produces carbon dioxide which must be evacuated; fresh air is especially important during hatching; ventilate and cool one minute each day.
Avoid direct sunlight.

Emergency Incubator:

The above incubations operation can be attempted with a make shift incubator, but it would seem prudent to try this only in an emergency when no brooders, rehabbers, or incubators are available. The humidity cannot be controlled without a hygrometer and I don’t know how critical this will be. Here’s what you need:

•	closed container with a window and a roof light rigged to achieve the required temperature i.e aquarium, etc.
•	thermometer located at egg level and visible through a widow.
•	pan around the eggs for water; a towel base.[/B]


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## Miss J (May 22, 2021)

becki87 said:


> If I had left it where it was it would have died, at least I gave it a chance. I did everything possible to help it even buying an incubator.


Who th are you to tell anyone that


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