# Wonka's Vet Visit



## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

*Sick*

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi chompie_puppy,

What would I do? Well, by the nature of what we try to do at this forum, at this point, having her put to sleep would not really be a choice, as of yet. Her weigh is not terrible and she is in no obvious pain or distress, that has been mentioned, to warrant taking that option. PTS is an option of last resort, to ease the pain and/or suffering of an ill or hurt bird.

The next thing would be to try and figure out can she be fixed. I am glad to hear you found a vet that is willing to help and even overlook the feral part of the equation. This vet you took Wonka to is he an avian vet? Does he have much experience with pigeons? Although we think Wonka is a hen, was he able to tell you with 100% certainty that she is? As her being a hen may rule in or out reproductive issues.

The reason I ask these questions is, although I have not had pigeons the number of years some here have, in my experience, and my reading on their illness and maladies, I have not seen, so far, the kind of "egg thing" Wonka has produced associated with kidney problems, reproductive, yes, but up until now, not tied to kidney problems.



> Do nothing and keep her as a pet while she lives out her last few days.


I don't think this would be an option for me as well, pet yes, doing nothing, no. Something is amiss with her and depending on a number of factors I might chose trying a course of drugs for her that have worked well on hens that have had reproductive disorders before. I might choose to put her on Baytril and metronidazole or TMS and metronidazole for two weeks to see if she improves. This is why I asked if it was determined she was a hen, as if Wonka is a male the I myself would be unfamiliar with "egg like" things coming from one.



> Do the blood tests and there might be something that we can do to help her, cure her or extend her life.


Depending on your budget and situation right now, doing the tests may be worthwhile to make better determinations for her.

I did see your other thread with her latest droppings and while loose and not ideal, they actually looked better in a way to me than they were looking before. This is after trying her on a course of Avicycline C ( which I looked up is tetracycline, not a first choice drug I believe for reproductive issues in hens), that's why I am thinking a treatment course with the correct antibiotics may be able to help her get well.

Just a thought and note to a moderator who may see this. I know chompie_puppy has 3-4 recent threads on Wonka. While I understand why new ones were created, I also think that too many threads may be less helpful for Wonka. What I mean is that there are some very experienced people that visit here, some not on a regular basis, that because Wonka's history is spread out may miss something that may be key to them recognizing something and making an input that may be helpful. It may be worthwhile joining Wonka's threads together, as to me, they seem continuous, not disjointed.

Karyn.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Good answer by Dobato, very thorough.

I also do not really think options 1 or 2 are options at all....end her life now, or do nothing and watch her deteriorate (?) Not really very good avenues.

If I were in such a position, I would proceed with paying for the blood test, and then proceeding with some course of meds/treatment. Also, I suppose, yes, the toe amputation.

The one Q I have is...was this vet an Avian Vet ?

If Wonka fails to improve/respond after trying a few different courses of treatment, then you should revisit the question of quality of life. But for now, I know that there are certainly pigeons and other birds with compromised renal systems that can live very well if given proper diet and treatment.

So, right now she needs to gain weight, and pretty fast, too. If the Vet has any suggestions or if even they can gavage-feed her maybe once a day for a few days with a high-nutrition, high-calorie formula...that can really boost her weight, fast. If she will have to be at the hospital for the foot treatment, they can certainly gavage feed her a few times a day even just for two days, maybe ?

Don't be sad, & don't worry. There are still many, many alternatives left. I have seen many birds renal systems respond very positively to the proper antibiotic. And there are special diets, too. The blood tests will tell a lot, so I believe them to be a necessity. May not be renal, also...may have just been an educated guess by the doc. This is why the blood test will help.

Keep us posted, and thank you for rescuing and caring so much for Wonka ! She is a lucky pigeon to have such a great friend !


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i think it's too soon to euthanize also, i guess that chocolate did a number on her.
if you can afford it i would make the blood test top priority to see if it is her kidneys, if it is then i would keep her until it seems she no longer has much of a quality of life.
i would give her a little more time and it's time for you to learn how to tube feed her so you can plump her up while she is feeling down to see if get her through whatever is going on.
choosing to euthanize is a difficult decision, it's one i always feel bad about, i have learned over the years that i need to put what this animal is feeling over what i feel, but i always try to give the birds with question marks on them some time to see if they show me they can get better.
i just had to put a gull down after i had him for a month, he had bad injuries to both feet and after a week i knew he wouldn't be able to stand and be a free bird again but i kept him longer and i shouldn't have, he suffered during those weeks even though i gave him pain meds, my head was telling me he might get better but my instincts told me he wouldn't i should have listened to my instincts and let him go sooner


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i totally understand, money sux when you don't have it, i certainly would be able to save more if i had bucks.
i forgot where you are located chompie, maybe we have someone around your area that can take over her care


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I have not seen, so far, the kind of "egg thing" Wonka has produced associated with kidney problems, reproductive, yes, but up until now, not tied to kidney problems.


Same here. To be honest I am a bit doubtful about the diagnosis and the prognosis. When my pigeon hen Juvie passed waxy mishaped lumps I treated her with Baytril, she survived a few years after that...

I can understand your situation re other pets, finances and space completely, but I hope that you won't put her down until you have had a chance to coddle her and determine whether she is healthy enough to have quality of life and even to be released...don't discount that as a possibility.

My cocks weigh more than my hens. When a sick hen reaches 300 gms I give a sigh of relief!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

well you have the three choices, the put to sleep one is a hard one... if YOU do not think she would need that, then you have the other two choices...we do not know your money situation...so that may be a factor in which choice you make....pick the one that is right for her and you and of course you will be backed up 100% which ever one you do make.... bless you for being so caring of her.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

It is so hard when life or death comes down to cold, hard, cash. It is reality, however. It may also be that if you give the bird supportive care, she will outlive all of us! You've had various things ruled out w/ the blood work you've already had. I think I would favor supportive care unless someone wants to take on the care.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

i dont know how u are with your credit history and whatnot.
but i was in your situation just the other day with my guinea pig, and i needed emergency money that i didnt have on my account
and carecredit.com helped me out.
it is a great , no interest, pay withing 18, 20, 24, or even 36 months,
you can try and apply. they have few sections make sure u apply for the veterinary care, and they dont care what kidd of pet u have they issue u a credit card
i hope i helped , i really didnt answer your question my everything i said abotu credit care leads to me saying do everything u can, dont let her suffer and dooo not euthanise her.
let them do the blood work,and find out whats wrong, it might as well be som type of deficiency, either vitamin, or i dont know
i know how it feels.. 150 dollars for blood work is a lot, and then u start thinkin about the cost after the blood work.
but its worth every dime.
i could not live with myself if i didnt do my best
poor pigeon...
i wish u well
and carecredit.com it is the only answer to all your troubles, they will help u out. and im sure in the next 3 years u'l be able to pay off the vet bill


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

and i was also in one simular situation 2 years ago, with my parkeet. he had seizures and the vet i took him to suggested that i put him to sleep.
so i said im not god, who i am to decide when he dies ..right
so i told them to do everything they can cause i had all the hope in the world,she said he will die within 3 days cause he didnt eat, drink .
so guess what my parakeet did, he beat all the odds, i force feed him days he had seizures, and i keeping him hydrated, and guess what 3 days after seizures have passed he ate on his own
2 yeas later he still alive
and he still singing and hangin out with other birds, yes he does have special needs but he is alive...
if i put him to sleep, or havent treated his seizures he would have died no doubt
but yeah you do everything u can. keep the faith, hope and im sure bird will be all right


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## TwinkieSlug (Oct 6, 2009)

The vet I work at does not do Carecredit so check with your vet first. My place does do a Wells Fargo thing that I think is similar. You can apply for it right at the vet's office or ahead of time on line. Sorry I don't have more info than that. I am a tech in the back and rarely have to deal with reception stuff. Call your vet office and see if they have one of these. Good luck.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi chompie_puppy,

First of all, you are doing more for this little one than 99% of the people out there would have done and continue to do so.

Second, toward the end of my last post I kind of alluded to the fact that not everyone is always in the situation they want to be in as far as an unexpected money requirement popping up. So we have to figure out what would be a prudent course to take for Wonka balancing a number of things, funding, exact cause of illness, chance for recovery and quality of life.

Don't be sorry for starting a number of posts on Wonka, it's just as I mentioned, at least I know for myself, when brooding on a course of action, I like to read and then re-read all of the posts and information on a bird, just in case something jumps out at me that I may have overlooked, or just did not strike me as important earlier. This is easier to do when the whole history of a continuing case is all in one thread.

Feefo, thanks for quoting me any seconding my feelings about this bird's diagnosis. Chompie_puppy, when I first arrived at this forum, I went through some of the old threads and probably read hundreds of posts from many members, Feefo was one of the people who jumped out as having a vast amount of rescue and rehabbing experience. If she has some doubts, I feel much more comfortable in my thoughts on just what Wonka's issues may be.

Chompie_puppy, here is an example of what I mean by going through some of the previous posts on Wonka. In this post below, I don't know if this is a Rorchak test for all of us, but this is what I see. In the last picture especially, I see two malformed, conjoined eggs with what looks to be inside the forming of chicks. With the back "shell bit" forming the top part of the conjoined top open "egg" and the higher up part, with the "chick" formed inside, the underside of the back "egg". This photo is why I suspect reproductive issues and not kidney. I may be way off base here, but this is what my gut is telling me.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=436269&postcount=2

Now for a course of action. I would hold off in spending the $150.00 on kidney tests, she has gone this long and holding is her own with your help, so unless someone else jumps in here and says yes, I have seen a bird throw off these "egg like" things in kidney issues, what I would do is ask the vet if you could try her on an extended course of antibiotics, starting with Baytril and Metronidazole given together first. The recommendations I made earlier for drugs where based on this very good thread on a reproductive infection below and maybe even moving on to TMS and Baytril later as was done in this case:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html

If you look at the malformed eggs in post number 15 in this thread they do look very similar to what Wonka produced, only Wonka's are joined together and with with looks to be, as I just mentioned, chicks forming and not just yolks.

Pigeons do strange things, especially reproductively, that I just don't seem to read other birds doing, although they may and it's just not as well documented as pigeons are on the net, and if you don't have a lot of diagnosing experience with pigeons as a vet, and although experienced with avian treatment, an avian may sometimes miss something with them.

I am sorry I forgot to address her foot issue, if you could post a few shots of the foot, close-up, from different angles it would help with that. Again, any possible amputation can wait a bit, as she is not being released anytime in the near future and it has to be determined if her other health issue can be remedied before spending any money on that at this point. The photos may help determine whether a supportive "shoe" would help her right now and buy some time while sorting out her main issue.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well then l am going to jump in and (slightly) disagree with karyn on the blood test. l say 'slightly' because l do agree with her that course of meds should be given and tried. But disagree because l think you _really need to get that initial blood test _ since t'll inform which meds to give. Personally, no, l think a weekly test or a monthly test's overkill - l understand why a vet would suggest it, but then you need to balance that with the realities of budgetary constraints. So, l suggest getting the _first blood test _and having the vet prescribe some meds and start THERE maybe a followup blood test in a month. As for the toe - is there any way they can 'splint' it back into the proper position. lf not - then there are 2 ways to amputate - one with anesthetic which puts the bird under (expensive), and the second with meds which numbs the bird but doesn't actually make her go unconscious (cheaper but some vets don't use ths method). Again, get that info and determine what your choices are. Lastly - hey- tests and meds and a lotta food may well make Wonka bounce back to an amazing degree. ln which case, if she still is not quite releasable at least you can then find her a loft or aviary situation. So again l sense you feel kinda hopeless - but there are a lotta avenues available which can take into account your finances and personal life. Hugs and scritches to the rest of your menagerie !


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jaye, no need to feel you disagree, in fact I agree with you. a blood test would be helpful. I was looking at from the point of view of a student who already says she is struggling with cash issues in trying figure out an initial course of treatment for Wonka, boiled down to a focused minimum, in terms of cost and what just might work. I remember all too well what it was like being a student struggling to juggle and balance my meager funds.

I went back again through chompie_puppy's previous posts and noticed she says she already has some Flagyl (metronidazole) on hand, so that would leave having the vet prescribe some Baytril for Wonka. This would be the lowest cost way of treatment right now for Wonka and may be, I believe, an effective one, not just trying to do something that would not be effective from lack of funds. The only other med that I would ask the vet to prescribe for her might be some Metacam to help with any pain Wonka indeed may have and to cool down any internal inflamation.

Not much ego on this end, I almost always try to recognize when I am getting into areas beyond my experience and ask for help.

Please people feel free to jump in here if you have other thoughts or suggestions. Also, if anybody could get a hold of Pidgey and have him have a look in at this thread(s) on Wonka I think it would be great. Comments or thoughts from a person who has been through similar issues and has the depth of knowledge Pidgey has sure would be useful about now.

Chompie_puppy, for what it's worth, Wonka does look like a hen to me, but I have been wrong before. Here is a place in Australia that does feather DNA testing for $20.00.

http://www.dnasolutions.com.au/dna-sexing.htm

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Also, if anybody could get a hold of Pidgey and have him have a look in at this thread(s) on Wonka I think it would be great.


I have e-mailed Pidgey.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sounds more like an oviduct infection, or that the oviduct is involved. I'd definitely go a few rounds of antibiotics to try and clear things first before I did anything else. ****** ( http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/it-never-rains-but-it-pours-21734.html?highlight=******#post219494 ), a wild pigeon that I once found in my backyard unable to fly due to a persistent oviduct infection (and goodness knows wherever else it went), is STILL coming every day to eat. She had lost a lot of weight and was very sick until we went through a treatment of Baytril/Metronidazole for a couple of weeks and then Trimethoprim/Sulfa for another couple. She never laid another egg but she's still flying.

Point is, there's often and usually a bacterial cause to a lot of these things and a course of antibiotics is fairly easy to give and worth a shot. Given the oviduct artifacts, I'd go with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Divet, or several other names) to start seeing as how I've seen it work very well in a few of these cases (others may, of course, have had differing experiences).

I wouldn't bother worrying about the toe at this point--it ain't the biggest problem here. Supplemental heat would be very good to the tune of of a heat lamp (be careful not to burn the house down). Worms could be an issue, as well, but I'd tend to treat them later rather than sooner.

So... anybody know where chompie puppy basically is and what antibiotics may be available there? Australia?

Chompie puppy, when you get a chance, read this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html

It also has some pictures of the things you might be talking about.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, thanks so much for taking the time to help out on this thread and thanks Feefo as well for bringing Wonka's problems to his attention. 

I haven't been at this forum that long, somewhat of a lurker, but try to jump in when I feel I have something to add, or perhaps a similar experience on a bird where my thoughts may help. I have learned a lot from your posts in many of the older threads I have read, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I think that most medicines should be available to chompie_puppy from the vet she is working with. She does presently have some metronidazole, don't know how much, perhaps not enough for an extended course of treatment, but hopefully she should also be able to be prescribed more from the vet.

Chompie_puppy, I know you are new here and don't know everyone, but Pidgey is one of the most experienced rehabbers on the forum, with a great depth of knowledge that has helped many birds recover from illness. If Feefo was doubtful of Wonka's diagnosis and now Pidgey thinks it's a possible reproductive organ infection/problem (as I do as well), then I feel that's what we should treat for right now and see how Wonka responds.

Some vets are easier than others in making suggestions to them for courses of treatment and for requests in prescribing medicines that may not occur to them to initially prescribe. I am hoping that you can get your vet to prescribe two medicines ASAP for you. One is the Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole, also known as Septra, Bactrim or Divet. This drug has been mentioned in one of your other threads, and now again here by Pidgey. The other is metronidazole (Flagyl) which you already have some of, but may need more, for an extended course of treatment for Wonka.

I will leave it to your discretion in your reading of your vet's personality whether it would be helpful to print Pidgey's oviduct infection thread to take with you to help your case in getting him to prescribe these medicines for you. Please let him know one of the most experienced pigeon rehabbers at our forum feels Wonka's issue is most likely an oviduct infection and that good success has been had treating these infections in pigeons using TMS+metronidazole or Baytril+metronidazole. I mention the later because although we are hoping you will be able to start with the TMS+metronidazole, it may be required in a few weeks to run a course of Baytril+metronidazole for Wonka as well, so best to mention this combination up front as well. 

Please also let him know you will need enough for three weeks of treatment. I added another weeks worth as I usually find it's always better to have some extra, than less on hand and when they are prescribing adding a little more does not really add that much to the cost of the prescription.

Supplemental heat has been mentioned before for Wonka, and again by Pidgey, so I do think it would be beneficial for her to see if this could be arranged for her.

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Keep Wonka in the safest and warmest place possible....place with most consistent temperature, so I am guessing that'd be indoors.

Dobato, I agree...Metronidizole (Flagyl) and Baytril (Cipro) are an awesome 1-2 combination and they can be given during the same time period, and they cover a lotta bases. So, yes, if one needed to hedge their bets sans blood test, then those two in tandem cast a very wide net indeed.

Chompie...if Pidgey thinks that the Trimeth/Divet is a better candidate given the symptoms, start with that instead.

....the only Q becomes where can you get some in AU ? Would the vet be willing to prescribe _anything_ w/o that blood test ????


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you don't have another pigeon to feel the back of to compare to Wonka, so you're going to be stuck with hoping that antibiotics can clear it without requiring anything further like our ****** (http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/it-never-rains-but-it-pours-21734.html?highlight=******#post219494 ). If you have to resort to surgery, it can get pretty rough. The biggest key to surviving that surgery is to not put the bird too far under the general anaesthetic as well as making sure the bird's recovered enough during the antibiotic phase (pre-surgery) to be strong enough to handle it.

Divet is just one commercial name of a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination that we can obtain in the US and possibly elsewhere without a prescription (for animal use). Others are like "SMZ-TMP" (or the same backwards) and other such. Any vet would know what that is by the chemical names. Other antibiotics could certainly work, it's just that I've had that one clearly work so much better for the specific infections that a few birds that I used it on. Trimethoprim/Sulfa is known for moving into necrotic tissue better than a lot of other medications, if memory serves.

I gotta' go! Thanks for the compliments, folks.

Pidgey


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

wow, the mystery is solved!! hopefully.
you all are so flippen smart, just goes to show you how experience can bypass education i'm crossing my fingers and toes hoping a round of biotics helps her, i would keep her inside while you treat her, your going to have to grab her for at least 10 days twice a day to give her meds.
i usually keep sick piji's in a plastic cat carrier lined with a towel and a heating pad on low under half of the kennel


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> If this is the case, do I still have the blood tests done for the possible kidney problems? Or should I just try and get the antibiotics I need and start her on that ASAP?


Personally I wouldn't. It isn't clear whether the vet's diagnosis of "major kidney damage" was based on the "egg things" or something else, but to me it seems that the blood test is more or less anticipated to be a dead end as far as treatment goes. The enclosure sounds the better option to me.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Chompie_puppy,

Glad to hear you are feeling a little relief with the fact that you may have the answers you were seeking on what is wrong with Wonka.



> Dobato, I agree...Metronidizole (Flagyl) and Baytril (Cipro) are an awesome 1-2 combination


Yes Jaye, I agree, a great combo, learned from this site. I also learned the Bayril/Cipro + Doxycycline combo here as well.

I think we are all on the same page here at the forum, get the meds that have been recommended, treat and let's see how things go.



> Personally I wouldn't. It isn't clear whether the vet's diagnosis of "major kidney damage" was based on the "egg things" or something else, but to me it seems that the blood test is more or less anticipated to be a dead end as far as treatment goes. The enclosure sounds the better option to me.


I agree with Feefo on the blood tests right now, And I also agree a nice enclosure would be a better option. The only thing I will add is I would hold off a bit on spending on anything other than for the meds and a heating pad at this immediate point. Keep the money for the enclosure in reserve until we are sure Wonka does not need any procedures/vet help that may yet cost some unexpected funds.



> Do you guys think she might ever be able to be released again??


Chompie_puppy, these guys have been known to make some pretty remarkable recoveries, with a little help. So the answer is maybe. The reason I say maybe is that I don't think that with Wonka her recovery is going to be made in the measurement of days, more like weeks or even perhaps a few months.

It is going to take time to treat her with one or more courses of anti-biotics and then it is going to take time to be sure she is really well. To be sure we have treated her long enough and aggressively enough that we are quite sure that any infection has been eliminated and not just forced down by the antibiotics to a low level, thus making all look well with her, only to have the infection re-occur, a short while later, once she is off the meds. Doing this will mean keeping her for a while once she does look and present as being well. During all of this time she may make her way further into your hearts and you may decide you would like her to stay with you and they can sometimes be quite clear whether they want to remain or return to a feral life.

With the quail cage, it is a lovely cage by the way. When one of my birds is ill they come out of the coop, into the house, and go into a small hospital cage, about 20x20x24. This way I can arrange to keep their activity down, make it much easier for them to reach their food and water, heat part of the cage with a heating pad, and doing this allows me to not have to stress them by chasing them to give them their meds, plus they are mostly under constant observation when they are in the house. Depending on how things progress and how they are presenting, like trying to "helicopter" (read this as fly) in a little cage, I will let them out into the room for supervised exercise, then back into the cage. Once I am satisfied they are mostly recovered and will not be picked on, it's back outside.

With Wonka, at this point, I would be keeping her in a smaller cage, where you could provide supplemental heat for her. A smaller cage will also help her preserve her energy to heal herself. If in the smaller cage she seems obviously unhappy, a lot of pacing back and forth, jumping at the side of the cage and so on, then moving her to a larger enclosure would be appropriate. However, in the smaller cage if she settles right in, spending a good deal of time on top of the heating pad and looking comfortable, you will have your answer. If she does seem up to it, you can do as you have been doing and exercise her for now in your garage. But make sure she is showing some signs she wants to exercise right now and not just you are placing her in an larger open space and she files up and around, as this is their instinct and instinct will overcome how they are really feeling. Just use good judgment, they are quite good at showing you what they want.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> The only thing I will add is I would hold off a bit on spending on anything other than for the meds and a heating pad at this immediate point. Keep the money for the enclosure in reserve until we are sure Wonka does not need any procedures/vet help that may yet cost some unexpected funds.


Good point!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well - l still don't think you should nix the blood test for the reasoning that the doc was probably wrong on the kidneys - _blood tests show a lot more things than just renal function. _ l was saying, if you absolutely cannot afford it then don't. But if you can scratch it out then get it, because honestly we are all just making educated guesses here as to treatments based upon our own experiences. lf you really can't swing the money - go with the stuff Pidgey suggests as it seems to fit the bill.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Well - *l still don't think you should nix the blood test* for the reasoning that the doc was probably wrong on the kidneys - _blood tests show a lot more things than just renal function. _ l was saying, if you absolutely cannot afford it then don't. But if you can scratch it out then get it, because honestly *we are all just making educated guesses here as to treatments based upon our own experiences*. lf you really can't swing the money - go with the stuff Pidgey suggests as it seems to fit the bill.



I agree 100%.


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Ok... so I should get the blood tests done? What blood tests would you guys recommend? A CBC? Something else? I can't really afford it, but I suppose there is always a way to find the money.


I think that is really a question for Jaye.

My vet is an avian vet with a good national reputation and whenever I take a pet pigeon to her (she tells me to try antibiotics first and if these don't lead to an improvement we can consider blood tests. So far we haven't had to go for the blood tests as the antibiotics worked.

If you are undecided, then why don't you forward the photos and the case history to Dr Colin Walker at The Australian Pigeon Company? 

www.auspigeonco.com.au/

He is an acknowledged pigeon expert, his book "Pigeon Health and Management" is used by a lot of PT members and he responded to an e-mail and a picture that I sent - his reply was very instructive as I learnt something I didn't know about the "Bursa of Fabricius".


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Frankly, blood tests don't tell you that much. Kidneys, for instance, can shut down from a systemic infection which most blood tests cannot identify. Usually, tissue samples have to be taken and done to MAYBE find the responsible pathogens. They ain't going to do that here--we're not really dealing with an overweight, middle-aged bird who has a sedentary job, here, you know. If a bird has a true fever, you can take a sample of blood and look at it under the microscope for Plasmodium (Malaria) but you almost never see that. My vets don't even bother to take fine-needle aspirates from inflamed joints (so-called "Paratyphoid boils"), they just medicate and try a different med if one doesn't work.

While some vets are wonderful people, many are also business folk and have big bills to pay. Sorry, that's just the hard reality. Yes, you can print that out and take it in but that kind of thing can also backfire. Most doctors do not like it when you produce your own diagnosis from information off the Internet. It's kind of a slap in the face for them. They went to school for a long time in order to make a higher standard of living and some possibly wanted to bask in the "authority" that comes with a white coat position. Just human nature, I guess, but you're going to have to be the one to deal with your own vet so it's up to you to try and assess his or her true nature.

Fact is, they (pigeons) can get "diseased" from simply being not competitive enough in getting food. This manifests as a slow wasting leading to a drop in physical resources that then causes a weakening of the immune system. Often when you give them plenty of food, warmth and safety, they can totally recover on their own, given the time. Not always, but sometimes. None of us can always know the correct thing to do in every case or situation but I personally cannot justify compelling you to spend money on an arguably useless test that might better be spent on paying down your debts or buying food under the current worldwide financial crisis that is going to get worse in time. Google "Peak Oil".

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

chompie_puppy, I am going to be more direct in what I thought earlier and did not say, which has been effecting my thoughts on the blood test.

If your vet did not look at the, I'll use Pidgey's term here as I think it is much more precise than "egg like thing", oviduct artifacts and immediately think, say or allude to the fact that Wonka in all likelihood has reproductive issues happening, from that point on I was not able to put the faith I would like into his diagnosis or for tests he wants to run. When he gave the option _"Do nothing and keep her as a pet while she lives out her last few days."_ I am sorry, but with Wonka issuing oviduct cast offs and not at least suggesting an empirical course of antibiotic treatment for her, that cemented it for me. 

I won't put myself with, in terms of experience, into Pidgey's or Feefo's level of knowledge, but my immediate thought when I saw the artifact was Wonka has a reproductive infection going on. I don't know how a blood test is going to make this anymore clear at this point and if this oviduct problem is not addressed with Wonka, everything else becomes academic in my opinion.

My vet as well, with some infections, very seldom runs any immediate blood work, unless he suspects liver issues. He will diagnose and then prescribe based on the symptoms and physical condition the bird is presenting, then re-access if there is no improvement.



> we are all just making educated guesses here as to treatments based upon our own experiences


I may be wrong, but I thought that was what this part of the forum was for. To help people based on our own experiences when they want to know what might be happening with a bird or feel something is going on that their vet can't quite figure out. Then sharing our thoughts on what we think a condition may be, and what medicines did or did not work for us. Quite frankly, I give vets all the credit in the world, but sometimes they miss somethings that an experienced rehabber would recognize right off, and this goes for any particular species a rehabber might specialize in and not just pigeons. Sometimes there is nothing to replace experience.

Chompie_puppy, I am glad you have a vet to work with, because you will need him to prescribe the meds that Wonka needs. I wrote earlier, and Pidgey has mentioned again as well, you will have to judge your vet's personality and how he would take "self" diagnosis from you and you bringing him printouts from the Internet. There are other ways to get the meds you need, but the quickest will be from him.



> Wonka isn't pacing up and down the small cage. She is quite content to stay in one spot and at night she will either lift up one leg and sleep on the other or she will sit down and pull her head right into her neck. She looks pretty puffy when she does that. Is this normal pigeon behavior?


Yes, I thought she may take to a smaller cage for now. Standing on one foot is a good sign as when they far along in sickness they will no longer do this, but stand on two feet at all times. The fluffing is normal behavior when resting, the fluffing of the feathers actually helps in their conservation of heat, but is also an indicator of a bird not feeling well. Have you been able to get a heating pad for her? Also, I would continue to keep her on the antibiotic you have until you get the proper ones.



> So I should firstly try to get the Trimethoprim/Sulfa? If I can't that then I should try for Baytril/Flagyl? I know for a fact you can get Baytril and Flagyl here in Australia as I've used both before on my parrots.


Yes, the TMS+Flagyl first, then the Baytril+Flagyl. The TMS is quite a common drug and should be readily available where you are as well.

Chompie_puppy, when you get a chance, don't forget to post the close-up photos of Wonka's injured foot, from a few angles (try and make them as clear as possible as well). I am not saying it will be so in her case, but there are somethings that can be attempted to correct her foot before the amputation of the toe in question is further considered. The photos will at least allow us to see what the true condition of her foot is at this point.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> Frankly, blood tests don't tell you that much.


 "The complete blood count, or CBC, lists a number of many important values. Typically, it includes the following:

* White blood cell count (WBC or leukocyte count)

* WBC differential count

* Red blood cell count (RBC or erythrocyte count)

* Hematocrit (Hct)

* Hemoglobin (Hbg)

* Mean corpuscular volume (MCV)

* Mean corpuscular hemoglobin (MCH)

* Mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration (MCHC)

* Red cell distribution width (RDW)

* Platelet count

* Mean Platelet Volume (MPV)"


Dobato said:


> I may be wrong, but I thought that was what this part of the forum was for. To help people based on our own experiences when they want to know what might be happening with a bird or feel something is going on that their vet can't quite figure out. Then sharing our thoughts on what we think a condition may be


 True - but even the best intentions and experiences of people on this site cannot provide the sort of info noted above. You are not 'wrong' at all, you clearly know tons - you are just beng unnecessarily argumentative for some reason  We are all only making educated guesses. Chompie - your call. You can go with the meds suggested, and observe if Wonka turns around - _that's not a bad plan at all._ As Chompie mentioned that there is the possible option of getting a blood test - personally l would get the CBC _if l could at all afford it_ (that is all l wrote above). Not saying anything else - as Fbirdie said, you can only do what's best for Wonka given the assets available & what's possible for you. How's Wonka doing today ?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That CBC explanation refers to human blood tests. 

I think what chompie_puppy needs to know is,* if *she went down that route, what blood tests she should ask for for a pigeon, what they would show and *how the results would help diagnose whatever is wrong with Wonka*.

So back to Dr Colin Walker , this is from an article he wrote on diagnostic testing of racing pigeons:

*A biochemistry/hematology profile tells us things like how the kidneys, liver and pancreas etc are working and also blood sugar, cholesterol, total protein, red and white blood cell counts and other values. Running a profile is not cheap. In Australia it costs $120 i.e. about 50 pounds. It does however give us a lot of very useful information and is of great value in figuring out what is wrong with an individual bird of value.*

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Diagnosis_Of_Disease.html


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Jaye said:


> "The complete blood count, or CBC, lists a number of many important values. Typically, it includes the following:
> 
> * White blood cell count (WBC or leukocyte count)
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know--I've got some of the lab equipment to do some of those tests and have done. You might as well take what I said at absolute face value: a blood panel can tell you for a certainty that a bird is sick without narrowing down the actual "why" that much. We've had some very painful lessons 'round here in the past over that very thing:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=131750&postcount=209


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

True, the best intentions of the advice from people here can not give the absolute black and white numbers that a blood test can give in terms of blood values. The point I believe that I and others were trying to make was, and I did say this earlier in the thread, it's always nice to have blood test results to get a complete picture of a bird's health, but right now one was not going to be definitive in terms of diagnosis or in terms of prescriptive value.

I personally can not think of a single time for my birds where a blood test was life saving, As a matter of fact, I can not remember in all of the old threads that I have looked through here where I felt, or read, that a blood test was of intrinsic value to the saving the life of a bird here. However, time after time I have read threads and posts where a member's experience and knowledge has saved lives, whether it be for their own bird or sharing their knowledge with someone else who is looking for help with a sick or injured bird for which treatments and medicines to use. The simple fact is that experience informs knowledge which guides decision making. This is the reason I asked if there was a anyway that Pidgey could have a look at this thread. Because he had successfully dealt with a reproductive illness before with success and Wonka could use his experience.

On top of that, you have a student who admits to money being tight, and God bless her, she says she will work extra shifts, or whatever to get the money needed if Wonka really would be helped by blood tests. When you add in what I felt was a questionable diagnosis, it just did not make sense to me, or sit right with me, to have chompie_puppy feel she was doing Wonka a disservice, even slightly, by not having the tests run.

As for being unnecessarily argumentative by me quoting you and responding. I didn't, and still don't, feel I was. I will admit to being slightly sarcastic, and only because I felt that you, in order to bolster your case for the blood tests, were taking I and others to task for doing exactly what I thought we were supposed to be doing here, using experience and knowledge to offer suggestions for treatment. This will be my last bite of this particular apple.

Hey Chompie_puppy, no worries, sometimes it's good to talk things out.



> As far as the antibiotics are concerned... well it took two and a half days to talk to the avian vet and come to an agreement. I will be leaving to pick up the medicine in about half an hour. I'm getting the Trimethoprim and Flagyl.


This is really excellent news, good work. Please start Wonka on the meds right away. The only other thing I would like you to do is after starting Wonka on the meds, is to please post and confirm here what the meds are, suggested dosing schedule + dosing amounts, how much of each you have and the strength they are compounded at. We want to make sure Wonka is receiving the best possible dosing right now.



> Wonka is not looking very good anymore. Not so much that she looks sick... but do you know when you get that feeling that something just isn't quite right anymore? Like things are starting to slowly slip backwards?


Your first post on Wonka was November 16th, so she has been ill for sometime now and it would be expected that she is not feeling her best at present. You've done your job, got Wonka the meds she hopefully needs to fix her and are giving her all the support you can to help her now heal. 

Her weight of 296 grams, for an ill bird, does not scare me at all at this point, I have had birds go much further down than that in weight and recover nicely once the right treatments were commenced. The heat will help her a lot, and just a reminder, as I am sure you've remembered, to make sure that Wonka has room to move on to, or off of the heat source, as she chooses to.

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Chompie_puppy, well, I don't know what to say. I sure would be upset as well if a vet did this to me, especially after all the arrangements had been made. It does confirm my ill feelings about this vet, Pidgey seems to of had this guy nailed about the money, and I am sorry you are having to go through this.

What he said about the anti-biotics being complete waste of time, I myself don't believe is true. Right now I think they will give Wonka her best fighting chance at trying to recover from her illness.

I also do not believe it is too late to help Wonka, but the quicker we can get her on the correct meds the better.

Also, if you could have your vet compound the meds at a more concentrated strength this would be helpful. Doing this will allow you to give smaller amounts of meds at a time, helping to overcome any real advantage giving meds by crop has over by syringe. By the way, I believe there are lots of people who give their birds meds by syringe with no problems.

I am so happy to hear you have a backup vet at hand. Just a little note that trimethoprim can be a stand alone drug and although I am almost sure you will get the Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo, I just wanted to mention this.

Please keep us informed and good luck,

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Good luck Chompie-puppy. Your "regular" vet may not be an avian expert, but if he is willing to work with you rather than just see you as a source of income then he is probably the best choice for Wonka.

I have no problems using a feeding tube but I use a syringe for adminsitering antibiotics. If I used a tube I would wonder how much of the dose ended up inside the bird!

Take the photos of the lumps with you if you don't have the lumps. You might also want to take a copy of Pidgey's first post as a reference.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To be absolutely fair, those kinds of things (that artifact) can also come from the Bursa of Fabricius, according to a vet quoted on here (Pigeon-Talk) somewhere... although I'd tend to think of those particular kinds coming from a younger bird (Wonka looks a bit more adult). That said, it wouldn't necessarily be an oviduct issue, more like a bladder infection (the Bursa of Fabricius is in the urodeum) although that particular part of the avian anatomy is involved in the early setup of the immune system and tends to atrophy into adulthood (kind of a "job done" thing).

For what that's worth...

Vets don't usually pick that particular job because they want to heal the world's ills, cost be [email protected]'re in it as a business with a high setup cost (all those instruments, equipment, the building, consumables... it all adds up!) that typically puts 'em in a high amount of debt up front that has to be paid off eventually. It's pretty easy to slip into the "pro bono" attitude and crater the business if one doesn't watch it. That's just a reality of life. Sure, some are going to be more helpful and some are going to be less. It's my personal feeling that it's best if one respects that limitation on their generosity up front and be delighted if one gets a break. One of the worst aspects of rehabbing indigent patients (virtually all wild animals can't pay in coin; only this guy can and that's because he burgled to get it: http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/carwash.asp )... is that it can cost excessive amounts of money. That's why some of us maintain some equipment or utilize some shotgun drug therapies when we believe they're applicable.

Pidgey


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh chompie i would be furious too!! btw i administer with a syringe also, a 1cc syringe easily goes down a pigeons throat, what a jerk.
you can use a feeding needle or tube if it's big dose (which it usually isn't for most meds), you just fill a syringe with the proper amount, fill another syringe with water slide in the tube or feeding needle with the meds and push it in leave the tube in and change to the syringe filled with water, it flushes the meds that are in the tube into the crop


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, you're probably going to want to dose Wonka at 120 milligrams of pure medicine per kilogram of bird. Since Wonka's about 300 grams (0.3 kilograms), you'd want to give her 36 milligrams of medicine each day. I have usually given two doses, twelve hours apart but I ain't sayin' that I'm right doing that... merely that that's how I've done it and gotten good results.

Anyhow, let us know whatever type of the medication that you acquire and we'll try to help with or confirm the dosing at that time.

I usually give them oral medications in non-pill form with a 1 cc or 0.3 cc syringe, by the way.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Chompie_puppy,

As another backup plan, I had a look around and the all the drugs you need are available there from the Australian Pigeon Company, the company Dr. Colin Walker is associated with here are some links:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/medications/intro.pdf
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/medications/meds.pdf (second page)
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/medications/medications.html (Flagyl middle of the page)

I can't quite figure out how purchases are made, but I just wanted you to know there are still possible options for Wonka.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

They have prescription and non prescription medicines. I don't quite know how to interpret this statement I found on the site...telephone consultation?

_Australian customers please note: Australian laws prohibit the supply of prescription medication* without veterinary consultation. These sensible laws help to ensure the correct use of these potent medications. As a result it is necessary to speak to Dr Walker either at the clinic or on the phone. It may also be necessary to send samples to the clinic for testing before these medications can be supplied. _


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Feefo, good find, I did not see that statement.

However, I am going to take it in its most favorable light. With Australia being as large as it is, it would be impractical for everyone with an ill bird to have to travel to the clinic. If the required meds could be prescribed after a paid phone consultation with the clinic, I would think that this could be a viable possible option for Wonka, if somehow things do not go as planned at the regular vets.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> it would be impractical for everyone with an ill bird to have to travel to the clinic. If the required meds could be prescribed after a paid phone consultation with the clinic


That was my thought too...if it is correct and the consultation is not too expensive then that would be an excellent resource for our Australian members.


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi chompie_puppy,

I feel I should have looked into other options for you earlier and maybe we would be a little further along right now, but my hope is they are good as they sound, we'll see.

Finally, some good news that has worked out. The dose they gave Wonka. 0.04ml should be 4mg if they are using 10% Baytril (a little goes a long way at this concentration for our little guys), which they most likely are. I will tell you what I think, then I hope Pidgey sees this and fines tunes my suggestions. I think Wonka should be getting about 50% more than the dose they are recommending, about 6mg twice a day (0.06ml). Plus maybe, because Wonka has been sick for so long, it may be even a little higher than that. The Baytril will be a much better drug for her, and there will be no problem switching to Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole later. You could also give her her next dose sooner than later, what I mean is that say a convenient dosing schedule for you is 8am and 8pm, but on this kind of schedule the next dose will be sooner than a full 12 hours apart than her injection, this is fine as the closer dosing will help load her system with the needed medicines quicker.

The Flagyl from August should still be fine to use. I don't know how much you have, but to start, I would be dosing her at 50mg/Kg, twice a day, which means you will need to give her 15mg twice a day. So if you give her a dose filled to the .38 mark on a 1cc syringe, you should be fine. Again, this dose may need adjusting.



> They didn't charge us anything! They put it down as "wildlife" and the consultation (although it was brief) and medicine didn't cost us a thing. I was more than happy to pay so this was very unexpected.


Chompie_puppy, if anyone deserves a break at this point, I think it is you. You and your Mom sound like super people.

Finally, as a backup to the backup, I see no reason that the vet you just took Wonka to could not be asked, or perhaps persuaded, to order in the Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole and the Flagyl, or have the Australian Pigeon Company send the meds to your vet, if they need to work through a local vet.


Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> I don't have enough Flagyl to give Wonka a full course of medicine. So I thought I should wait to get a full bottle instead of giving it to her and then running out. So right now she is just getting the Baytril.


I kind of figured as much, but what I was hoping for was that Wonka could get started on what you have, say even if it is 4 or 5 days, and in the meantime work at getting her her own full prescription either from your current vet, who gave you the Baytril, or from the Australian Pigeon Comany. By the way, Flagyl is used to treat a number of conditions in larger animals, so I am sure the vet could order some in within a day, or maybe even the same day. Could you give us a rough idea how much Flagyl you do have on hand?




> If I go back to the avian vet to learn how to give the medicine by crop tube... would I be able to crop feed Wonka then?


The answer to this is yes. If a vet, or his technician, teaches you to medicate by gavage (with a tube attached to a syringe directly into the crop) you will be able to use the same method to "tube feed" Wonka. Most vets use a stainless steel "crop needle", which is a stainless steel tube with a round ball on the end, to do this. Many people use a soft silicone or rubber tube set up, but the method is pretty well the same for both, with a few little tricks for the soft method. If you are taught to do this, before you feed Wonka for the first time, please let us know.

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi chompie_puppy,

Thanks for the update.

Could you quickly go over the meds that Wonka is now getting and amounts? When you say the correct medicine, do you mean she is now on Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole and the Flagyl or Baytril and Flagyl?

Also, just a reminder, it would be good to have a look at her foot to see if something could be done to correct it while she is hopefully getting better on the medicine. The weight gain is encouraging, how is she acting? Part of what I would like you to do in monitoring her weight is not only go by what the scale says, but also how her keel bone looks and feels, her body feels in your hands in general, more "fleshy", as because of the issues she is having there is always a chance gains in weight could come from places we do not want it to.

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

Wonka is on Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Flagyl. 

Flagyl - 0.3ml twice a day
Trimethoprim/Sulfa - 0.3ml twice a day

Actually, Wonka still feels thin.  Her keel bone is still prominent and I don't think much has changed. I'm struggling getting her to pick up more weight. I still give her the peas,corn and soaked pellets by hand. She also particularly likes the black oil sunflower seeds in her mix so I give her more of those (since they are high in fat I figured it would be beneficial. Am I right?)

I'll get those photos of her feet up soon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Thin birds can take quite awhile to bring back up to a good weight. And, of course, they can also be suffering from worms. You have to be careful with wormers, though, especially if the bird is thin because overdosing can be deadly depending on the wormer.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Wonka is on Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Flagyl.


I was hoping this would be the case. I am sorry I was not a little more clear on my request for information on the meds, but it would be very helpful to have the strength both meds are compounded at. Is the Flagyl you are using still at 40mg/ml and how about the Trimethoprim/Sulfa?

With her weight, if you can find them, many birds like shelled, unsalted sunflower seeds and safflower seeds as well, both really pack on the weight.



> his assistant taught me how to give it with a crop tube


Do you have a tube and syringe setup at home now and would like to prepare to learn to crop feed?



> Her keel bone is still prominent and I don't think much has changed


The small gain in weight is not really going to be enough to start to make her feel more "solid", but I do feel good she is maintaining right now.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> You have to be careful with wormers, though, especially if the bird is thin because overdosing can be deadly depending on the wormer.


Another opportunity for me to plug Dr Colin Walker and the Australian Pigeon Company?  (I am not associated with them or on commission) We use his Moxidectin Plus which has a wide safety margin.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have heard that Moxidectin Plus is very good.


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't worm her again. It is too soon, and wouldn't be good for her.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Dobato - There is nothing on the label about the strength of the medicine. It just says that it is 0.1ml per 100g of bird. Then in brackets it says 0.3ml for Wonka.


Would it be possible to call the vets and ask them what the strength of pure medicine to each ml of both medicines are? I see no reason they would not tell you. Pidgey's recommendation for dosing on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa is 120mg/Kg once a day (36mg for Wonka), and we should go with that level of medicine for Wonka, as I think this is important for her treatment, so we need to know what the strength(s)are/is, to ensure that she receives this amount.



> I do have syringes and tubes at home now. Do you think it would be beneficial to Wonka to be crop fed?


There was a reason I phrased my question the way I did, in saying start to prepare, as I am a little unsure what to recommend. I am not a rehabber, so my recommendations on this forum are generally based on my own experiences with my birds and the knowledge I have gained from my studying on birds and from my vet. If Wonka where with me right now I would be doing what I call a "lights out" supplemental tube feeding. This is where I would only do one supplemental tube feeding a day just before I turned out the lights for the night. I would use Kaytee and add few extra things to it to make it more calorie dense and feed her about 15-20cc (depending on how her full/empty her crop felt). This way by the morning she would have an empty crop and so she would pick and feed herself as normal, as I think it is important they are self feeding, but with the benefit of the overnight meal to add back weight quicker.

At the weight she is at, around 300 grams, she is at a weight that in my mind is close to a "safe" zone. At this weight I would definitely like to see 30+ more grams on her, but she is not at a weight where I feel it is imperative that she gets the extra food from supplemental tube feeding. If you had experience with tube feeding I would recommend you do a "lights out" feeding and take it from there, but you don't. There are some real inherent dangers in the tube feeding process if it is done incorrectly, the biggest of which is food aspiration, which may bring on aspiration pneumonia (I use may because of the antibiotics Wonka is on this may not be a certainty if only a little where aspirated). Right now I am not sure the rewards outweigh the risks, but this could change, that's why I would like you to prepare. To either source some Kaytee in your area or have some on hand in case things change. Also, to get you more comfortable with the process, answer any questions you may have and direct you to this Resources link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pictures-amp-videos-of-tube-feeding-16235.html

When you post the photos of her foot, if you could post a photo of the tube/syringe setup you have would be helpful. Have you been doing all her medicating by crop tube, if yes, how is this going for you?

I think for the time being let's keep a good eye on her weight and try letting her add the weight back on her own by offering her the treats I mentioned a few replies ago. Other opinions are welcome on this, as maybe I am being too cautious in my thinking.

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> They wouldn't tell me what strengths the medicines are.


Wow, I am surprised at this, I have not really heard of an instance before where an owner has asked this question and not been told. In fact, I have never received a prescription from my vet where the strength was not clearly stated on the label. If I had to guess, I would say it is either at 48mg/ml (48mg and not 50mg from the way the two actual drugs are combined) or 24mg/ml. If it's the first, then the dose Wonka is receiving is not far off what Pidgey recommended for a 24hr dosing amount (36mg vs a possible current 28.8mg/24hr; @.30ml twice a day), if it is the later, then Wonka is being under dosed (36mg vs a possible current 14.4mg/24hr; @.30ml twice a day). How about the Flagyl, is this the same vet as you got your other Flagyl from for your other birds, the 40mg/ml strength? If yes, again to guess, I would imagine that what you have would be of the same strength.



> I think I've seen Kaytee at the big petshop close to my work. I'll have a look and buy if if they have it. If I can't find Kaytee, is there anything else I can buy instead?


I have used Kaytee, Zupreem and Hagen brands, and I have found them all good. I would imagine any name brand, baby bird, hand feeding formula would be fine.



> I only have a 1ml (1cc?) syringe with the tubing attached. I have been using it to give her the medicine. At first it was traumatic (for both me and Wonka) but nowadays it only takes a few seconds to give the medicine. It is pretty easy to do.


Yes, for the first number of times of putting a tube down into the crop you are sure you're going to bring them harm, even though you are trying to help them, then after a while it becomes quite easy and straight forward. I think it's actually good that you started to first perform gavage by administering small amounts of medicine, less change of a mishap, as feeding is done pretty much the same way, but please, do not do any feeding before checking in here as there are a few tips that will be helpful, plus you will need a much larger syringe, a 20-30cc one (many drug stores have these, especially compounding ones - call around). How long is the tube on the 1cc syringe, what is it made from, and what is the approximate size of the hole in the tube?



> Here are the photos of her feet. The toe they want to amputate is the stumpy one that is curled right under her foot.


First, dealing with the crusty dried droppings. Most times a little soap and quite warm water on a paper towel (quite wet) held around the foot for a minute or two ussually does the trick. However, there has been a time or two I have had to soak the foot (use anything small and disposable that will hold the soap and warm water and whole foot) for a few minutes to really soften things up enough to easily come of. After the foot is well cleaned I would use a small amount of Vaseline, instead of the Pawpaw ointment, to lightly coat the foot, as this will help prevent the real locking on to the foot of any droppings. Just a dab on your forefinger, then massage the foot between your finger and thumb.

With regards to the injury of Wonka's foot. What I am seeing is what looks to be an old string injury where the toe has been collapsed into the foot itself, making correction by a foot form, as I was hoping, not an option. This toe has now fused into the foot, and it seems that Wonka now uses part of this toe to form the foot pad she now walks on. Again, I will ask for help on this, as there are people here who deal with string injuries on a regular basis and I have not, but to me unless the foot is infected, which it does not appear to be, or it is profoundly affecting her mobility, it may be best just to leave it alone. Once more, another risk/reward scenario, does the benefit of an amputation outweigh any risks? If it was just to remove the bit of upturned toe, then I would say there is not a great deal of risk, but would there be a great deal of benefit from this, as it does not appear to be interfering with anything? If it is to remove as much of the toe as possible, then I start to feel nervous about unknown complications, both during and after surgery. Photos do not always give a person the same view as in person does, so there is a possibly I am not observing something in person would allow.

She seems to have a good stance from a distance, would it be possible to get another photo of her stance closer up. How is she walking on this foot?

Thanks for photos of her recent droppings, they continue to look improved, how's her weight?

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> to me unless the foot is infected, which it does not appear to be, or it is profoundly affecting her mobility, it may be best just to leave it alone. Once more, another risk/reward scenario, does the benefit of an amputation outweigh any risks? If it was just to remove the bit of upturned toe, then I would say there is not a great deal of risk, but would there be a great deal of benefit from this, as it does not appear to be interfering with anything? If it is to remove as much of the toe as possible, then I start to feel nervous about unknown complications, both during and after surgery.


I agree with this. My current vet would rather not carry out surgery on pigeons unless it is absolutellly essential because he says the anaesthetic is so dangerous for birds. I have a lot of pigeons with foot injuries, some had surgery by a vet that was experienced in pigeons and that I trusted, but creating a stump seems to be the only "correction" that gave some pigeons with foot injuries any advantage and in these cases the foot had either fallen off or was about to fall off.. My *ENORMOUS* reservation is the danger of anaesthetic. A few years ago I picked up a pigeon with a lot of string round her foot that I couldn't get off, I promised her that I would make her better and took her to a local vet who said that the string would have to be removed under anaesthetic. When I telephoned to ask when I could pick the pigeon up I was told in a very off hand way "Oh, she died!". The reasons were given as "Who knows? The effects of the anaesthetic, toxemia, shock, blood loss...could be any of those".  Never again!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do the bottles of medicine say anything whatsoever on them besides the prescribed dosing? Is there a medicine name or trade name?

Pidgey


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i wouldn't amputate anything either unless absolutely necessary, her feet look pretty well healed up to me, and i would let them declare themselves and watch for infection.
sometimes when the birds i get have hardened poop on them, i take them right to the sink and run warm water on just their feet and gently rub off the poo under the running water


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

ls Wonka on any strong anti-inflammatories ? l have always found that Medacam (Meloxicam) does wonders for foot situations like this providing all or most of the hair threads have been picked out - also using a topical on the feet such as Silvadene will do double-duty (it loosens the poop off the foot and provides add'l healing). l agree with Altgirl - l have seen WORSE feet which didn't require amputation.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

On cleaning the feet, a long time ago I was advised by Fred on this forum to stand the pigeon for a few minutes in warm water and salt, that worked wonders, removing not only the poop but any dirt embeded in the grooves left by the thread.


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On those lime-green deals... is that the solids of the poop or is it the urates that would normally be white?

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi chompie_puppy,

Thanks for the update.

I would hold off a bit adding in the Milk Thistle into the mix until it is better determined whether there is even a liver issue at all and it not just a dietary one.

A few photos of her latest droppings would be very useful in making determinations on her current "dropping health".

The weight gain is very good and the the pickup in her wanting to forage, pick and eat is also very good news.

Seems you are doing very well with her. Yes, I find when they gain (or lose) in about the 20gm area, you can start to really feel it in their body mass when you hold them.

Generally, what we like to do after a course of anti-biotics, especially a prolonged one, is administer probiotics to a bird following treatment. There are any number of ways to do this and products as well. Some will say use only ones designed specifically for use with avians, such as Bena-Bac, others may not even see the need. What I do is use the same high quality probiotic I take myself, I open the capsule and sprinkle about 1/16 of the capsule into a little organic yogurt that I know is active, about 1/2 a teaspoon and some warm water, and tube this to the bird once a day, every third day, for three treatments. I have been doing this for years and it has worked well for me. You may need to adjust things a little, since you only have a 1cc syringe and tube, but the most important part is the probiotic itself, you could add this to the yogurt and water just much less of this part.

I don't know what is available there, but I had a look on Google AU and something like this would work well I think:

http://www.goldenglow.com.au/produc...gn=sem&utm_term=buy lactobacillus acidophilus

Don't do this until you take the current photos of the droppings to post.


Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Why don't you post Wonka for adoption or find her a nice home near you?


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not necessarily. Some of them adore being spoiled.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f24/roscos-journey-14008.html

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The probiotics you found by Vetafarm are a good choice and should be just fine for her.



> I can start mixing it with yogurt and feeding it with the tube.


Don't forget, as I mentioned but was perhaps not clear enough on, all yogurts are not created equal - make sure it is a plain, organic, active culture yogurt.


With the milk thistle, I don't really think it is necessary, for as you say as soon as you eliminated the seeds from her diet her droppings returned to normal and if it truly was a liver issue I don't believe this would have happened with just a simple dietary change, such as taking this one seed out of her diet.



> Wouldn't she be happier back in the wild?


Chompie_puppy, you have done so very much to bring this bird back from an almost certain death. I guess the first determination has to be in a week's time will she be in sufficient physical shape to survive her release back to the wild. My hope is that you can get you mother to reconsider her 1 week time limit for a few reasons. 

The first being while her weight has come up nicely, I would like to see a bit more weight on her as a cushion for any lean times she may experience while adjusting back to learning the ropes of wild foraging again. You will need to make sure her flying abilities are completely back, as it is not only important she be able to fly, but to fly with strength and agility in order to survive. She will need flight time in your garage to build back up her flying strength. This time will also allow you to judge not just her ability to fly up to say a shelf, but the strength of her flight and to literally chase her around to judge her ability to maneuver and avoid. For example, if I took one of my guys into our garage and tried to catch him it would be quite the job, as a healthy bird, even in a small space like a garage, can be quite the challenge to catch, they can turn on a dime, with short, strong bursts of flight instantly there when they need it to be. Wonka will need to be in this type of flying condition if your efforts to save her are to be fully realized upon her release.

Also, if you go back to earlier in the thread I did mention that once she got well it would be good if she could stay with you for a good period of time to ensure that the antibiotics did their job completely and did not just suppress the infection, only to reemerge once she is off them for a while. I feel that even for this reason alone I would like to see you keep her for another month (while doing the above with her flying exercises).

Finally, ferals do make wonderful pets and perhaps this may even be an option for you if you ask nicely, and especially if you feel that her flight abilities are in any way compromised. I know there are many people around the world that open their hearts and homes to these guys that can't be returned to the wild, perhaps you can let your mother know you would like to do this (find her a permanent home if she can't remain with you) and to bear with you on a few fronts while you try and figure out what will really be best for Wonka.

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

so when you take her outside she isn't in a cage and doesn't fly away???
if that is the case, she either doesn't feel well enough to leave or can't.
if she can't i would look for a new home for her


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi chompie_puppy,

The Yakult should be fine, it looks to be very similar to Kefir and many people use Kefir instead of yogurt.

I really would like to try and get a better idea of Wonka's flying abilities, if you startle or chase her in your garage how does she react? If she bursts into flight how strong is the effort she makes?

Could you have your Mom have a look at your thread so she can better understand that the cessation of blood in her droppings does not necessarily mean she is completely well.

It seems we may have to consider starting the process to find a new home for Wonka.

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Could she have gotten used to me and know that I won't hurt her? Or is she just not feeling up to flying away?


Actually, could possibly be a little of both. I am going to ask the rehabbers that read this to weigh in on how best to determine just what Wonka's flying abilities truly may be, as if one of my birds becomes injured or sick, since my birds are not ferals, the importance of good flight is not life determining as it would be for Wonka if she were released without being strong of flight and I don't feel I have the experience to offer you the best advice on something so critical.

I understand your mother's concerns and it seems she is willing to bear with you to get Wonka the best possible outcome. Please let her know there have been many birds like Wonka who have been helped on this forum, who for any number of different reasons were not able to be safely returned to their feral life. The vast majority of these birds quickly accept their new life, which means being caged at times, and their new owners seemed to be quite surprised at times of the joy that a pigeon, a bird they may never have taken much notice of in the past, has brought to their lives.


Karyn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

your just going to have to go with your gut on how well you think she fly's, i would give her a little more time to build up strength and weight, and she is feeling 100%.
i also feel that is she was a wild adult bird and she is strong enough for release she should be released, it would be the life she would choose.
she should also be released where she was found to rejoin her flock and mate


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

she still looks like she's not feeling so hot, has she taken any baths?? you should make sure she has a nice big bowl or casserole dish with a couple inches of water so she can clean herself up and neaten up her feathers.
you can also try misting her with hot water in a spray bottle, get her nice and wet, she won't like it but she needs to start getting her feathers in shape if she is going to be released.
also when you mist her, watch to see if the water beads up on her back and wings, that is an important criteria for release, she must have her waterproofing or the first rain she gets caught in she will be in trouble all over again
keep her warm while she is wet, then watch to see if she preens after her bath


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Chompie_puppy, thanks for all the photos, you have posted in your thread(s), they really help a lot.

I agree with altgirl35, Wonka still looks to be feeling a bit off. I also agree with everything she has said about Wonka bathing and grooming, please follow her guidelines on bathing for Wonka as she has made excellent points.

Our of curiosity, in your garage if you pick Wonka up, one hand on each side of her body and toss her her into the air from about 4 feet in height, what is reaction? Does she fly up to the shelf she likes or down to the ground and does she seems like her flight has strength?

When you have time, I would not mind having a look at her latest dropping(s).

Karyn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

btw, what makes me think she's still not feeling so good is the way she is holding her wings so low, a healthy pigeon will hold them nice and tight against her body, the primary flights should criss cross on her lower back


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> btw, what makes me think she's still not feeling so good is the way she is holding her wings so low, a healthy pigeon will hold them nice and tight against her body, the primary flights should criss cross on her lower back


Yes, this is what caught my eye as well, also there is a "tightness" missing from her body posture that seems to there in her last photo, although it is at a distance and is not quite as easy to judge:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=441990&postcount=63

Chompie_puppy, what was the temperature like outside for her the day you took these last photos? (Don't forget the dropping(s) photos)

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it sounds like she's finally starting to feel pretty good and is probably pining for her old life. Rehabbers get to see a lot of that.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi chompie_puppy,

I have often wondered, in that last while, how little Wonka was making out, thanks for stopping by and bringing us up to date. I was hoping your mother would relent, tell her thanks from us. Sounds like you have been quite busy with very worthwhile endeavors.

I always had a feeling that Wonka's journey back to health would not be a quick one, but from your descriptions I finally feel she may back to regaining her true health. It's also nice to see that her weight is now up into what I would consider a more normal range for an adult female feral.

Don't worry about her hating you, they all have different personalities, I have birds in my coup that will fly on my shoulder or head when I am in there and I also have birds that I have hand raised from babies, who are now adults, that are not social with me at all, and in fact act like wild ferals if I try and handle them, it's just their nature. This avoidance of humans contact in a wild bird is a good thing, as we do not want them to become too imprinted on humans if they are to be released back to the wild, which seems to be the case with Wonka.

I think it's a great idea to start to leave some bread to remind her what it is like to forage and rip apart the kind of foods she would encounter in the wild.

She may be getting close to being releasable again when you are ready to do this, if this is the case, others here will help you with the best ways to do this.

You have done a great job,

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

If you do a search here for 'soft release" you will have all you need to know. 

But, in short.....providing she's all healthy now....it goes like this:

You need to find a local flock (_*a good, large (i.e. at least 12 or so), healthy-looking one in an area with food and water sources, not a lot of fast vehicular traffic, and hopefully no or few flying predators*_), and take her with you in a cage or carrier where she can clearly see her surroundings. Put it on the ground and feed the pigeons around the carrier. They will come close to eat and forage, and your friend will observe them doing this. Drop some food in Wonka's cage, too.

After a few minutes...cough (or shuffle, or wave your arms, or clap your hands) so the flock startles and takes off.....nothing dramatic or scary because you want them to come back. Then drop some more food so they see it; when they come back, keep feeding...then in another five minutes do the 'startle' again.

So right there, Wonka will observe : 

1) how to forage for food, and 

2) how to flee when the flock startles.

You need to do this for several days (5 minimum)...and try not to skip days in between. The 'session' only need be about 15 minutes total.

After the first few days, Wonka should be 'copying' what her future flockmates are doing. She will peck at food when they do...and she will "jump" and try to fly out of the cage to fly after them when the flock startles and takes off.

When she is doing both of these things...and does it repeatedly for 2-3 days...then it's time !

Keep us posted.


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

chompie_puppy said:


> I have found a place only 2 minutes away from my house. It has a few restaurants located around a boat dock. There is a supermarket and also a bakery. There is a small flock of pigeons (about 15) hanging around in front of the bakery every day. The parking lot is about 100m away from the bakery and sometimes I see pigeons there too. Would this be a problem? The only other place I know where there are lots of pigeons is in the city. That is over an hour away and I think the traffic there would be much more dangerous for Wonka?


Well, Jaye made a good post, but we would not want to see mishaps with Wonka after all the work you have put into her, so I think it is best to be cautious. As I see it, this sounds like a good option, the boat dock area. What would be nice though, if you could do it and not call too much attention to yourself, would to be to put down some food for the small flock for 7-10 days in a row before releasing Wonka, at the same time and place each day. Pigeons are pretty smart and after a few days they will come to expect to find this food and group around this area.

This way when you release Wonka into the flock they will hopefully lead her back to the feeding spot where you can help support her transition by making food available to her and the whole flock, as you had been doing prior to her release. This will give Wonka time to get her bearings and you will, again hopefully, know she is getting some food each day, softening her release.

Please keep us informed,

Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK...well...thank goodness you got her back ! It would actually have been terrible if she flew off by herself. 

OK...so....my apologies because it's late at night here so I just sorta skimmed this last page of posts...but....you didn't do a full week of 'soft release' steps, did you ???? (as I mentioned in post #96 ????). 

Y'know...where you bring Wonka, caged, to observe a foraging flock and feed that flock so they surround Wonka's cage, etc ? And do this for an absolute minimum of 5 days, trying to do as many of those days consecutively as possible ? Sessions must be at least 15-20 minutes ?

I understand that it is conspicuous....I dunno what to say about that...put a band on her and if anyone ever questions you, tell them that she is your Homing pigeon or Roller, not a feral. Bring some receipts from the vet with you, to show that Wonka is a pet.

It is not confusing, what happened at the golf course. From her reaction, it is very clear that _she has yet to "clue in" to flock behavior._ This is because she has never participated in it, or observed it; such things don't just "kick in" naturally. They have to be learned.

The more I think about it...the more I realize how lucky you are that she didn't just fly off, confused and ill-prepared...all by herself.

There is really no alternative to doing the soft release steps.

Remember, you have to do that method if you want Wonka to survive as a feral. There are no shortcuts.....

If you really CANNOT possibly do those steps for the time I mentioned...then there are a few other choices:

1) Release her in her current state, with her current understanding of feral behavior....and she will not stand much of a chance of surviving more than a few days at all.

2) Keep her as your friend and build her a nice loft, or just a nicer space in the garage and you guys can be pals. Just give her some "Wonka time" every day.....maybe , in time, you can add another saved feral so she can have a pal.

3) Find her a loft or aviary somewhere near you who will take her and let her live among other loft/aviary birds in a secure environment.

Sounds like the golf course may be a good place...._providing you do the complete 'soft release program'_...and you _definitely_ wanna ask if there are any hawks or cats around there, ever. Because, then...it wouldn't be a good place at all.

Chompie...I don't mean to sound like a hard#ss...it's just that you really, really scraped by a very close-call here.... and you fortunately got Wonka back (consider that a gift...the gods were with you, the planets aligned...whatever). Now you have to make some decisions and do the right thing, taking the proper steps.


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Chompie_puppy, I see that you are signed in, I will answer more fully, but I think there may still be something wrong with Wonka.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

First, sorry for the delay, I had something to do.

Chompie_puppy, let me say that the photo of you and Wonka is really a lovely one.

As I mentioned before, Jaye made quite a good post on the steps to soft releasing and under normal circumstances would, I believe, have been correct for Wonka, but I am feeling that Wonka herself is not in a normal physical state for these steps to work right for her.

Again, as I mentioned before in an earlier post, with Altgirl35 being the first to draw attention to it, there is something not quite right about the way Wonka is carrying her wings. In the photo you posted, where she is on the walkway, she is caring her wings in a drooped manner, clearing showing all of the white area from her lower back to her rump region. If you tale a look, you will notice the other pigeons in your photos they have their wings held up, covering this area. Then in the two other photos where she is in the foreground, again her wings are drooped, plus I do not like the angle at which she is holding tail. Also, perhaps it is nothing, but in the last photo there is something to the angle at which the throat/crop area meets the breast area that strikes me as odd, there is a bulge or fullness there that does not sit quite right with me. The wing and tail symptoms are sometimes outward indicative signs of internal issues that need to be addressed.

I know Jaye mentions that she does not have a clue of flock behavior, again normally he may on to something, but because Wonka was an adult when you first rescued her, I think there is more to her reactions than not being flock savvy. Also, just a little reminder that CP mentioned earlier that Wonka was not social with her, so I do not think we can try and tie her reactions as being attributable to her seeing CP as her "flock" or mate and did not want to leave her when the others took flight. The reactions she displayed might be quite a bit more understandable if she were a juvenile when you found her, that you had rehabbed to a young adult stage, but for an adult bird not to take to wing with the others, strange. And once again, because you said she is not social with you -- and even if she was a little -- it is especially odd you would ever be able to catch an adult bird again on foot once free, no matter the length of time you tried in a wild open setting, if she was in a fully healthy state once released. So I really do think there is something more at play here than inexperienced behaviors.

Chompie_puppy, I really have to commend you for finding a truly ideal location to set Wonka free at, it has everything that could be hoped for I think in a release area, safety, food, water and companionship. I believe that if Wonka were truly back to full health she would have joined in and there would have been no looking back for her. I do agree with Jaye that there was someone looking out for both of you, as I think that if you did not manage to get her back I would not have liked the odds of her survival. You are a champ for not just giving up, the easy way out for you, but staying with it until you where able to capture her once again.

Where my mind is going now is that there are limits to how much help we can give over the Internet. There are determinations that will have to be made whether Wonka with just with more time can be brought further along in her journey back to health or whether it is going to take additional treatments/meds to help her reach this goal.

Although I was hoping to avoid the costs and trouble for you I think we need the help of a sympathetic avian specialist, one preferably with in-depth pigeon experience, and I don't know how logistically it would work for you, but I think if there was any way we could get Dr. Colin Walker involved to examine Wonka, the money I asked you to put off spending early in this thread could be wisely spent with him. And who even knows, there is a chance he may even be aware of a rehabber, if it should come to that, that Wonka could have a forever home with.

You have gotten Wonka to a point where she may be able to live quite well in a captive situation for goodness knows how long with management, but I really do think she may need some experienced hands on help about now to see if the last hurdles she needs to clear, to get back to being truly releasable, can be brought about with more experienced knowledge and help.

All the other questions you have asked can be sorted out and dealt with in due course once we have a true answer on Wonka's prognosis toward release.

Chompie_puppy, I think there is a reason Wonka is in your good hands and I don't feel you are making her suffer, but that you are fighting to get her completely well once more.

Karyn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i think dobato is right about her still not feeling well, you shouldn't have been able to catch her again if she was feeling good enough for release no matter where you released her, her wings and tail look droopy like a bird that doesn't feel well.
now refresh my memory about where you found her, didn't you find her as an adult? if so you should release her back where she was found with her own flock, no need to do a soft release for adults as long as they go back where they were found and are not a migratory bird who's mate's may have migrated which pigeons don't (once she's healthly enough for release


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Altgirl35, if I remember right, where Wonka was first found, I think CP mentioned that there were just a few birds around. With no real flock support in the original area she was found at, I think this was the reason, at least for me, it was not suggested that Wonka be released back to where she was originally rescued from and as an adult I think she could easily adapt to an ideal new area, such as CP has found.

Karyn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

okay, i would still go check the area, she may just have been left behind while they went to feed somewhere else because she was sick from the chocolate and whatever else she had going on.
it's usually recommended that adults be released within 5 miles of where they were found because they know where all the food, water and shelter from the weather can be found plus thier mate may be waiting for them, not sure about pigeons but some birds will wait up to a year for their mate to come back before they move on.
i had a seagull who's mate and babies were killed by something on my old studio roof, (probaby a raccoon) who stood on that roof and called and cried for 2 weeks all day every day.
i once heard of an owl who's mate was killed sat on a branch turned his face towards the tree trunk and stayed there until he starved to death.
i think of that owl and seagull every time i have an adult bird, i think of the mate that may be waiting or struggling to raise babies by themselves 
but i def agree she still looks like a sick little bird and not ready to be released anywhere yet or even at all at this point.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> okay, i would still go check the area, she may just have been left behind while they went to feed somewhere else because she was sick from the chocolate and whatever else she had going on.
> it's usually recommended that adults be released within 5 miles of where they were found because they know where all the food, water and shelter from the weather can be found plus thier mate may be waiting for them,


Good point, and I think it could be something that CP could look into once Wonka is whole in body again. I tend to believe that things happen for a reason and there is a good chance if Wonka had been released to her original area, in the condition she is in, there would have been enough familiarity about her surroundings she may have gotten up high enough to appear as well or reach a place she could not be caught again from.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Just gotta chime in here on a few points which I think need some clarification.

#1 - soft release method isn't just for fledglings. If a young adult was found suffering/struggling and clearly not making it in the wild, and it wasn't a result of attack or collision or other sorta 'acute' injury....they one should STILL go with a soft-release method even if it seems the bird was not a baby to begin with. 
Again, worst case scenario is that you are wasting a few days repeating what your winged charge already knows. But more likely than not, it will help.... or at least be very telling as to the patient's ability to be successfully re-released.

#2 - Good observation on Wonka still looking "off". If you will recall, long, long ago in this thread I was gently insisting on going with some tests which would have cost a bit, but could also have been very telling. My recollection is...this was dismissed as unnecessary - not by the original poster, but by others here.....

#3 - If Wonka is capable of flying and is evasive in the air, as she showed in her garage....then _she would have tried to escape Chompie at the golf course _even if she were feeling ill.
IMHO, _she didn't escape because she is becoming human-bonded_...not because she wasn't feeling up to it.


Chompie.....I will take your word for it if you say the soft release method is just not possible. BUT...if that is the case...then to put it quite simply...Wonka cannot be released (even after whatever malady she still has is determined and treated). Doing so (even if she becomes healthier and is released in a more "familiar" environment than this last time, as Altgirl suggests) will really not end well for your friend.

So....I do agree that another vet visit is a a good suggestion. But Wonka will need more than a physical exam...she'll need bloodwork and a culture, probably another fecal as well. So that ain't gonna be cheap.

Next....sans the option of going thru the soft release process.....you have left open 2 options: 

1) keep her.... or...

2) find her a loft/aviary "assisted living" situation.

You say you cannot keep her. OK. Then you need to work on finding her a new home.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jaye, when I made my post I really tried to make it as gentle as I could, as not to make you in any way feel I was questioning your advice, as I really did appreciate you taking the time to do the soft release instruction post you made, but it seems to no avail, as ego has exerted itself once again. As I see it, there was no good reason to make the first three points you did, they served no useful purpose I feel, other than to make CP feel bad, doubt herself in the care she has provided Wonka, and to make yourself seem right.

1.) Chompie_puppy already said as a result of Australian laws a soft release was not going to be a viable option for her, why go on about it?
2.) You neglected to mention the same vet only offered CP three options; tests, euthanasia, or take her home to die in a time frame he mentioned as days, with no offer of empirical treatment with antibiotics to see if she would respond. I am one of the others you mention and had no faith in spending money with this vet was in Wonka's best interest, plus CP stated she had no money, plus he made no mention at all of it may be reproductive problems with Wonka, plus whatever the result of blood tests, probably our most knowledgeable person on this forum was of the opinion, and I was in agreement, blood tests were not really going to tell us much. I know for myself, if a more sympathetic vet had been involved, or or someone of Dr. Walker's caliber had said the tests would be worthwhile, you would not have gotten any argument from me.
3.) Your third point saying she did not escape because she is becoming human bonded makes no sense to me. I do not have one bird, all my birds are pets, and I include hand raised babies now adults, that I would ever trust in a wild open space scenario to set down and have hope of making an immediate capture with wild ferals around. If they took to wing any of my birds would as well with them. Wonka did not do the same because she is not right, plus CP said it took a while to recapture her. Can anyone here really imagine a healthy feral who has been through a few months of rehab would let this recapture happen?

In this post http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/help-just-rescued-pigeon-hit-by-car-42058-5.html#post457270 , starting at post say #56, how is what you did any different than what CP did? We now have the benefit of hindsight to know Wonka was not right enough to be released, but stipulating that, why are you taking CP to task for doing exactly what you did, find a nice looking flock after looking for a while, in a safe looking area, put down some feed, and then let the bird join in with them? No soft release in this instance, let me say I think what you did was right, as this was also an adult bird and my understanding is a soft release not a prerequisite with them. However, why are you making such a strong statement that if a soft release method is not possible for Wonka then she simply can't be released and must be kept. Maybe I missed something, sorry if I did, but it makes no sense to me trying to square what you do and what you say.

Finally, to show you your mind set using words from you own post above;



> If you will recall, long, long ago in this thread I was gently insisting on going with some tests which would have cost a bit





> But Wonka will need more than a physical exam...she'll need blood work and a culture, probably another fecal as well. So that ain't gonna be cheap.


How is it when you suggested tests they would have cost "a bit", but now all of a sudden the same tests, "ain't going to be cheap." Outside of the fecal that Wonka already had, an inexpensive test, where is this huge difference in costs coming from?

Sorry people, I apologized in advance for a good deal of this post, I read Jaye's post earlier in the day and was just going to leave it be. However, when I read some of the thread I linked above, I just got plain irked and I also wanted to assure CP she did nothing wrong.


Karyn


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## chompie_puppy (Nov 15, 2009)

..........


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Chompie_puppy, you are, and have never, ever, caused any troubles at all, in any way here. For my part, I felt you were unduly put upon for doing the very best you can for Wonka, my reasons were laid out above, so no need to rehash them.

CP, my mom has an old saying, in for a penny in for a pound, so please ask your mum that since she has come this far with Wonka, to see if she can't dig down and find little more forbearance to see Wonka through to the end of all of this. Also explain the end may be a while yet, but we are doing the best we can and that we all want sooner, than later, with the best possible outcome for Wonka.

Thanks for a more clear description of the place and details of Wonka's rescue. I think for the time being we can postpone any decisions on where to release her, until we have resolved the if, and when, so ease your mind a bit on that for now.

I think for right now let's start with making contact with Dr. Walker's clinic and see what they say, as a result of Australian laws, as you explained before, it's problematic helping a feral pigeon, so let's still say Wonka is your pet pigeon for now. Let's also get some feedback from them on just how they handle owners, such as yourself, who live great distances from their clinic. They would be the ones to ask about the in's and outs' of transporting birds from a distance. There is also the possibility that Dr. Walker may have an associated clinic closer or could make a recommendation to an experienced vet they know, who is familiar with pigeons, that may be closer to your location. If by some chance you get to speak with Dr. Walker and depending on the feeling you are getting from the conversation, you could ask a non-committal question such as "how does he feel about treating and helping down on their luck ferals", as to get a gage of any problems we may encounter with this part. Also, if push comes to shove, although I don't have any, there are bands for pigeons, called snap on bands, and perhaps if needed someone here could get one sent out for you if a band is any kind of prerequisite for treatment.

Perhaps if any of our other Australian friends who see this post/thread and are aware of a pigeon rehabber anywhere in Australia they could make this known.

CP, you have brought Wonka back to place where her health is currently stable, her weigh is back up to a normal range and most importantly she is safe and well cared for with you. All we can all do is continue to push for her full restoration to health and if this is some how not possible, it won't be because we didn't try our best for her.

Karyn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

do not feel bad at all chompie your doing great! it's really really hard to tell if birds feel 100%, even for vets.
i've had lots of birds brought to me that were suppose to ready for release or nearly from wildlife centers that have the most experienced vets in the usa, and some of them were not and i couldn't tell either.
sometimes i can't find what is wrong and all i'm relying on is my gut saying something is not right give them more time.
i've also got birds that these same vets said would be fine in a few weeks and it turned out they never ever would be okay for release.
they can't speak to us and all we can do is our best for them, i hope we can find someone close to you to help out.
i can't remember if you checked around with vets or animal shelters to see if they know of anyone that rehabs birds, call them and you may find some sympathetic soul who saves these guys.
even try cold calling people who have lofts they may know of someone who likes to help out the wild guys


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

just so you guys know dr colin walker seems reasonably feral pigeon friendly - he helped me with a 40 minute consultation in which he detailed everything i would need to do for my 20 day old baby feral pigeon in order to provide him with a good home. This only cost me 45 dollars for the initial consult. he was very very helpful.


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