# pmv??



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Oscar last night started doing some star-gazing type moves, but we thought it was because Pinky had landed on top of his cage, and he was trying to see her. But he was doing it repeatedly. So I took him out to sit with me and he did stop doing it. But Aias says he's been doing it more today. Which I suppose would explain the diarrhea he had? He doesn't seem to have any of the other symptoms from what I read in the sticky (Aias really knows more, I haven't been home yet today), I will post again when I have more info. Is it possible that the PMV would manifest just with diarrhea and twisting his head upside down, no other symptoms??
Sabina
P.S. Our apartment is 1 room, so isolation is difficult


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Ok it seems pretty definite--I'm home now, and I saw Oscar turn his head completely upside down for no reason at all. He does a lot of tilting his head, looking around. No staggering, no turning in circles. He doesn't seem sick other than sometimes turning his head upside down, ie he's alert, preening, etc. His poops are yellowish-tan with some white today (today's the first day with any white), kinda formed. Just as a recap, he's about 4 wks old and was found on the street 2/26, and had watery diarrhea for a few days. Aias says he seems to have difficulty drinking, ie getting his neck in the right position, today. He's still being hand-fed, though he has no problem picking up seeds (he just spits them out mostly, seems to think seeds are for fun, not eating).
This is very distressing, especially given the isolation difficulties. All advice welcome!
Oh another thing, Aias took poops for analysis today (Pinky's and Oscar's), will get results tomorrow. 
Sabina


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sabina, do you have your own bathroom and would it be possible to perhaps have Oscar in the bathroom?

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

we-ell, yes except it's tiny--no sink and you have to sit on the toilet sideways, it's so cramped! maybe a better option is a sort of closet-room/area we have (i feel like i should draw a floor plan here so you guys understand the options!). it has a door and more floor space, we just don't close that door since the cat litter is there. even if we don't close the door though, that should be better, right? i mean, is pmv airborne? or is it transmitted oral-fecal? it's so hard though since oscar loves to be with us, gets stressed/upset if he's by himself. maybe we should put pinky in that room? what to do?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

How long is he contagious for? ok Aias just vetoed locking Pinky up. Honestly, I'd feel better relocating her altogether for the next 6 weeks. Though she would need to be isolated, since who knows if she already caught something. She just flew into Oscar's cage while Oscar was on the couch with me   (lesson learned, keep cage door closed at all times!) I cleaned her feet off with alcohol, but obviously, conditions have not been optimal, and we haven't been 100% stringent in making sure they don't share the same surfaces (I mean, we are strict that they don't share the same general areas, but it has happened that Pinky has landed on a table that Oscar has walked on, etc). Pinky is free-flying, spends most of her time on her perch in our bedroom area, though she walks through the whole apt, flies back and forth, and Oscar hangs out in his cage or with us in the living room area, on the couch.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sabina, I'm no PMV expert, you'll have to wait for folks like Cynthia and Cindy
to check in here and give you some real expertise.

I was, however, toilet trained by a bacteriologist and am just making it through
my first pox 'baby'--Deisel--and not one other bird in the house has caught pox
in the meantime, knock on wood.

I have spray bottles and containers w/quarts and gallons marked and mix 1/2
cup of bleach into a gallon of water. Water bowls are dumped and sprayed immediately w/the water and bleach solution, the sink is sprayed w/the solution,
in fact, so are my hands and then washed after being sprayed. Yes, you'll need
plenty of hand lotion.

I was so freaked at first having Diesel upstairs, but it's all worked out and the
five others upstairs have not suffered any boils or lesions since the baby w/the pigeon fly that bit Diesel first arrived. Nor did the baby herself contract it. I know diseases carry their own precautions in terms of hygiene,
but don't be surprised if w/a little extra effort that you can figure out how to
handle it without becoming an over-sized petrie dish.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I feel like I'm watching him get worse by the second, he twists his head, turns in circles, and fell off the couch while turning his head a few minutes ago. I held him and cradled his head and noticed an intermittent tremor of his head. My poor baby!    I just want to cry. It's so scary, knowing how serious this is. 

We just finished a mini-disinfection campaign, floors and surfaces. We read every word of Cynthia's sticky. Oh we're changing his water dish to a small shot glass, is that narrow enough to avoid drowning you think? From reading that PMV remains in the respiratory organs for 4 weeks, it appears it does have the potential to be airborne. I just feel so awful putting Oscar in the closet area, I can't tell you how much he likes to be around us. We haven't moved him yet. 

I am freaking out!

Sabina


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's why I didn't move Diesel, he just loves being in the thick of it all. I'm sure he would have adjusted, I just thought it might be easier if I could make
some of the adjustments since I'm supposed to have 'the brain'. Cynthia and Cindy are usually around during the day and Terry usually does a few rounds in the evening. Just hang tight and I'm sure you'll get some 'scenario-specific-tailored-advice'.

Basically in viral situations it's the nursing that prevails and I'm sure you guys are great in that department.
Hopefully you will not have to deal w/secondary bacterial infections, etc.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks fp, I appreciate the support. I'm going to sleep now, Aias will be up for awhile, so he'll be checking in.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Sabina & Aias,
I am so sorry to hear about Oscar.  

Since space is limited, I would suggest placing the cages as far apart from each other as possible. 

I would also suggest covering Oscar's cage except for the front & place him in as dark of area that you have. This will allow him to relax which helps to reduce PMV symptoms. They are enhanced when the bird is startled or stressed. I would keep him in his cage. 
I do have one exception about keeping him in his cage. If he begins to have seizures as my Pij did, pick him up & place him on your chest & rub his back. This helped Pij get through the really tough times. 

Place a deep dish of seeds in his cage. 

I hope this has helped some. Cynthia should be on in a couple hours (still early in the UK) to help you further.

If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. 

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Sabina and Aias,

You two are doing just fine with Oscar. Like some of the other members here, I have had a fair number of PMV pigeons and, knock on wood, I have never had a PMV bird spread the virus to any other bird that was here. 

The stress free environment, deep seed dishes, and safe water containers are really important, and it's important that they be kept topped up all the time. I understand why you did the shot glass, but be very certain that Oscar can "aim" well enough to actually drink out of it. Keep loud noises to a minimum also if you can. An unexpected loud noise can trigger a PMV episode as can even the slightest lack of food and water .. thus the topping off all the time.

It can take months for PMV birds to get back to anywhere near normal, but the effort and time sure is worth it.

Terry


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Sabina, you have a serious problem. The disease spreads lvery fast. Suggest you vaccinate your remaining birds asap. 

Keep the cage away from the other birds and yes, covering calms the birds down.

There is a chance of him pulling thru but remember that even if he does his head will be moving like that. They also can be bred but the eggs need to be fostered as only the healthy parent will be able to feed the young properly.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

i just spent an hour on the hammock calming him down, he is asleep now and relaxed. thanks everyone for your help.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Sabina and Aias,

I am sorry about this, I know how distressing finding out that one of your rescues is infectious is, it has happened to me, but it is good that you found him before the illness got him into trouble.

The "playing" with the seed is "seed tossing" and one of the symptoms of PMV. tVery watery poops are another early symptom.

I think that the others have covered most aspects but Jules and I both swear by liquid calcium, if you can get him some and give two drops a day it might reduce his nervous symptoms.

Covering the cage on three sides as Cindy suggested will also reduce the chances of the virus spreading . At this stage it would usually spread through poops (airborn and in water ) and aerosol (sneezes). Whether you use paper towelss to line his cage or real towels , for the protection of wild birds you should dispose of the poops wisely.

I have had two pigeons develop PMV while in isolation. The first one was in a room that he shared with another pigeon but the other pigeon didn't catch it. When the infection occurs in a loft 30% - 70% of the other birds catch it, but they exist in close proximity, share water, and have a lot of beak-to-beak contact.. 

There is no telling which pigeons which pigeons will be permanently affected. I have seen pigeons that were severely affected initially make a full recovery yet pigeons with mild symptoms during the course of the disease were permanently disabled.

All my PMV rescues have survived. The three that I found more than 6 years ago are still with me.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Sabina.

I have found out that one of our members has found she had a PMV sufferer in the same room as three other caged birds 2 or 3 times, but as they were in separate cages the other birds didn't develop the illness. 

She is a rehabber and thinks that it is birds with weak immune systems that catch the virus.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Sabina.
> 
> I have found out that one of our members has found she had a PMV sufferer in the same room as three other caged birds 2 or 3 times, but as they were in separate cages the other birds didn't develop the illness.
> 
> ...



Sabina,


I'm so sorry to hear little Oscar may have PMV, but that maybe why the diarrhea seemed uncontrollable.

I would continue the probiotcs as well as keeping the nutrition going for all your birds as well as Oscar. The liquid calcium is a must for him. Continue the garlic caps for your other babies. 


Cynthia, I'm sure weak immune systems causes it to spread, that is certainly why secondary infections are so common in a sick bird. Thanks for sharing.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thank you everyone. It's certainly reassuring to know that PMV isn't necessarily super-contagious, though of course, we're being much more cautious now than we were in trying to keep Oscar as isolated as possible. He's in his cage the majority of the time with the 3 sides covered, and Pinky is in the bedroom area on her perch. Their cages are still in the living room area, but the only time Pinky is in there is at night when both cages are completely covered.

We were both out most of today, but Aias says it seems like Oscar's symptoms are much worse in the evening. Is that common? He says that usually it just takes about a minute after taking him out from his cage for the symptoms to subside. But he's been sitting with Oscar about half an hour now waiting for him to relax so he can be fed, and his head is still twisted.

We haven't gotten back the results of the fecal analysis yet, but one of the rehabbers at Animal General wants to see Oscar now, so we're taking him on Friday. Apparently, they want to give him some homepathic meds that they're "experimenting" with for PMV birds (which, having read Cynthia's sticky, we were already considering, depending how bad the symptoms became etc). They did offer euthanasia as the first option, which is really disappointing to me, as I had come to trust their judgment. 

We are back to feeding 3 times a day now since clearly he can't eat on his own. He's getting the puppy chow, though we'd like to switch to bigger seeds/lentils/split peas--any feeding recommendations?

Aias will look for the calcium tomorrow. Do pet stores carry it?

Again, thanks all for all the helpful information and reassuring words. Cynthia, it is definitely very nice to know that all your PMV birds have survived. Poor Oscar. Do you think these next weeks are painful and/or terribly distressing for him? Not that I would remotely consider euthanasia, but it's just so hard to watch him like this, and to know that things are not going to get better for a relatively long (6 weeks seems like AGES) time.

Sabina


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

sabina said:


> We haven't gotten back the results of the fecal analysis yet, but one of the rehabbers at Animal General wants to see Oscar now, so we're taking him on Friday. Apparently, they want to give him some homepathic meds that they're "experimenting" with for PMV birds (which, having read Cynthia's sticky, we were already considering, depending how bad the symptoms became etc).
> * *They did offer euthanasia as the first option*, which is really disappointing to me, as I had come to trust their judgment.
> 
> Again, thanks all for all the helpful information and reassuring words. Cynthia, it is definitely very nice to know that all your PMV birds have survived. Poor Oscar. Do you think these next weeks are painful and/or terribly distressing for him? Not that I would remotely consider euthanasia, but *it's just so hard to watch him like this, and to know that things are not going to get better for a relatively long (6 weeks seems like AGES) time.*
> Sabina


Sabina & Aias,
* I'm sorry to hear what the initial option was, but hopefully they will be able to help Oscar, once he is in their presence.  

It really is hard watching these 'special' precious birds go through such trying times. 

When Pij was brought to me (4/29/04) his head was upside down 95% of the time & his seizures were nearly non-stop. There would be tears of sadness as I watched over him waiting for the next seizure to hit, & then tears of joy when I saw him hold his head upright for just 5 minutes & finally when he was able to stand upright, without a trace of a seizure. He was such a proud boy. 
He became 'bestest buddies' with Rae Charles, our adorable blind pij. He watched over her like nobodys business. 

Oscar is one of our 'special' precious pijjies & we are all pulling for him.  
There is hope. 

Cindy


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Sabina,

You might try to make him a little neck brace out of a piece of foam and tape or even a safety pin. I do this and it keeps them from twisting their necks around so violently. I think that Phil's sling idea for broken legs may even be a good idea to keep Oscar from falling.

Feather


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

it is hard watching him have such a hard time, it is a good thing that he won our hearts so convincingly when he first arrived, there is no way we are going to give up on him.

that is great story about pij, he is good inspiration and such a looker to boot!

thank you all for your support. why does oscar get it worse at night? in the day time he is symptom-free about 90% of the time.

feather, fortunately his attacks are not violent at this stage, he does his neck twirl but is a slow neck twirl.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> We were both out most of today, but Aias says it seems like Oscar's symptoms are much worse in the evening. Is that common?


I haven't noticed that they get worse at night, but excitement as well as fear can affect them.

I have two that are a mated pair now, both have severe residual neurological damage and turn their heads over during the mating rituals. But they still manage to complete the ritual even though it looks a bit odd.



> Do you think these next weeks are painful and/or terribly distressing for him? Not that I would remotely consider euthanasia, but it's just so hard to watch him like this, and to know that things are not going to get better for a relatively long (6 weeks seems like AGES) time.


It will be a lot more distressing for you than for him. I have some that made a full recovery and some that didn't. Both groups display the same behaviour: They scrap, enjoy their food, examine nest locations, mate, dose in the sunshine etc. As they are protected from predators, starvation and thirst they are content.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Sabina and Aias,

I'm glad to hear that there is a rehabber that will take a holistic approach, as I think it will really benefit Oscar. Cynthia, has pretty much laid the groundwork, but I'm interested to hear about what else might be used and the results, since I have never had a PMV bird. 

You might be able to find the calcium syrup at a drug store, and even an avian pet store.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Cindy, those pictures are really good (as usual). They show so clearly how bad it can get and the full recovery that can follow.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Cindy, those pictures are really good (as usual).
> 
> *They show so clearly how bad it can get and the full recovery that can follow.*
> 
> Cynthia


Thanks Cynthia.

I debated & debated on taking a picture of Pij in that state. 
However, having the highest of hopes that he would recover, I was thinking a before & after picture would be to our advantage as a great 'learning' tool.  
Like they say, a couple pictures are worth a thousand words.

I truly believe your contribution & sharing your 'hands on' experience with PMV pijjies, combined with the experiences many of us have had, has saved many a pigeons lives.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I was thinking a before & after picture would be to our advantage as a great 'learning' tool.


I usually forget to take a "before" photo and invariably regret it.

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I bought some liquid calcium today but don't know if it's ok to give. 1 tablespoon has calcium 250 mg, vit D (as cholecalciferal) 100 IU, magnesium 100mg, zinc 8 mg, and boron 2mg. If not, I can return it and look other places in the morning. 

Also how exactly do we give it? In water? Syringe? On the beak?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Another question. I assume the course of PMV can be variable, so maybe the question is unanswerable. But how long does it usually take for the symptoms to peak? Is Oscar going to keep getting worse? Or just stay the way he is for a long time? He seems the same today as yesterday, so I'm hoping this is the worst it will get?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sabina, is this a human vitamin/mineral supplement?

You could start the bird on this one and when you run out switch to another.
I think I'd start w/one milliliter per 30 ml of drinking water for now as a safe place to start until others way in on the topic. More isn't better necessarily,
but I don't think you will cause harm as the body simply doesn't use what it can't.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> But how long does it usually take for the symptoms to peak? Is Oscar going to keep getting worse? Or just stay the way he is for a long time? He seems the same today as yesterday, so I'm hoping this is the worst it will get?


To be honest each case is different. 

One of mine (Tuppenny) got worse after the 6 weeks had passed. I think that could be because when John found him he was injured but showed no signs of PMV for a week, so he was treated with antibiotics. 

I wish I had kept a diary on each one!


> I bought some liquid calcium today but don't know if it's ok to give. 1 tablespoon has calcium 250 mg, vit D (as cholecalciferal) 100 IU, magnesium 100mg, zinc 8 mg, and boron 2mg. If not, I can return it and look other places in the morning.
> 
> Also how exactly do we give it? In water? Syringe? On the beak?


My calcium bottle's specifications say: Calcium 33,500 ppm. I think we need Larry to translate that! I give two drops at the front of the lower beak. It has a very sweet taste so they know it is there.




> I'm glad to hear that there is a rehabber that will take a holistic approach, as I think it will really benefit Oscar. Cynthia, has pretty much laid the groundwork, but I'm interested to hear about what else might be used and the results, since I have never had a PMV bird.


I would also be very interested in that. When Feefo the Beautiful had been disabled for some year by PMV Just after I started her on the Conium she showed a remarkable "recovery" and was even able to fly up to a perch. Sadly the recovery didn't last but it showed that whatever damage was done to her brain cells by the virus was not irreversible.

I have treated some of the others on arrival with Conium Mac and the course of the disease appeared to be easier for them, but I don't know if this could be accounted for by the strain of the virus.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

I am soo sorry Aias and Sabina!! poor Mr. Oscar Cosmo! I'm glad Cindy posted the pic of the head turning as i didnt know what that meant, exactly.
So, is Oscar off to AG today?? I really wish you guys luck, i know how much you love this baby. 
this is so sad, i really think he'll pull through though, he has such devoted parents!!! 
let us know what AG says....They still havent gotten the fecal sample back?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

fp--it is a human supplement from our natural foods store. And it's a big bottle, I think it might take years to finish! I was looking at the Nutrimin bottle and that seems to have almost an equivalent amount of calcium as what I bought, and at least he has already been getting that the last few days. But today's my day off, so I'm going to go do a survey of the local pet stores and drug stores, see what I come up with. Cynthia had mentioned buying it from a drug store so I was assuming a human product was fine. But I'd rather get one that's just calcium and vit D. 

This is my first time being with Oscar in the daytime since his symptoms started, and the difference is amazing. He turned his head upside down once for maybe one second, and the rest of the time (the last hour), he's been standing, walking around the couch, pecking at seeds (which were set out on a towel for him), and preening. 

Oscar's appointment is at 2pm today, I feel badly putting him through the stress of the trip on the subway (it would be a very long and expensive taxi drive), but hopefully the homeopathic meds will help. Will certainly keep everybody posted.

Again, thanks everyone for the help and support. 

Sabina


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

ok 1 rite aid, duane reade, cvs, gnc, and 2 pet stores later...nothing! no liquid calcium anywhere. i did pick up some oyster shell powder for birds, should we sprinkle that on his food? there are 2 more places i could try, trader joe's and petco. in the meantime, any more thoughts on how to dose the liquid calcium we did find?
ok have to get ready for the trip to AG now.
sabina


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

sabina said:


> fp--it is a human supplement from our natural foods store. And it's a big bottle, I think it might take years to finish! I was looking at the Nutrimin bottle and that seems to have almost an equivalent amount of calcium as what I bought, and at least he has already been getting that the last few days. But today's my day off, so I'm going to go do a survey of the local pet stores and drug stores, see what I come up with. Cynthia had mentioned buying it from a drug store so I was assuming a human product was fine. But I'd rather get one that's just calcium and vit D.
> 
> *This is my first time being with Oscar in the daytime since his symptoms started, and the difference is amazing. He turned his head upside down once for maybe one second, and the rest of the time (the last hour), he's been standing, walking around the couch, pecking at seeds *(which were set out on a towel for him), *and preening*.
> 
> ...


That's great Sabina.  

Keeping my fingers crossed that all goes well today.
I would suggest covering the entire carrier with a towel while in transit to the vets office. This should help considerably with the stress.

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

sabina said:


> I bought some liquid calcium today but don't know if it's ok to give. 1 tablespoon has calcium 250 mg, vit D (as cholecalciferal) 100 IU, magnesium 100mg, zinc 8 mg, and boron 2mg. If not, I can return it and look other places in the morning.
> 
> Also how exactly do we give it? In water? Syringe? On the beak?



You can give the bird 1/4th of a human dose, and use a dropper.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, that is kinda what i'm concerned about with my little guy, taking the bus to NYC/ but if oscar has PMV, i would imagine a subway is more than stressful. 
god, i really hope everything is ok with oscar, after all you guys have been through with all the pigeons you have had. most people would have given up after everything you have been through. give him lots and lots of love from me, and let us know ASAP whats going on, i know i'm holding my breath...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina and Aias - I hope everything is going well with Oscar at the vet. I have been thinking of you all afternoon.

A number of years ago, we got in 2 different groups of pigeons with PMV symptoms, probably about 10 total. The main thing I found out in taking care of them is that they respond to love and affection. They have a special sweetness and like to be held and cuddled and seem to be less symptomatic during the time they're held. 

I know you love him dearly so hang in there and everything is going to be fine.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2007)

I think it's important to point out that without Vitamin D3, the bird can't metabolize calcium. The Cholecalciferal is the Vitamin D3 component.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> They have a special sweetness and like to be held and cuddled and seem to be less symptomatic during the time they're held.


Our friends Les and Keiko found the same thing with their PMV rescues.

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

OK we're back from Animal General. Don't think the trip was too stressful for Oscar, he was in his cage which was then put in Aias' messenger bag. He's now calmly preening in his cage. Let's see. So both poop samples were negative, Oscar's and Pinky's. I was shocked! We've never had that result before. I wonder if it's since usually the analysis gets done earlier in the rescue, and this time, Oscar had gotten plenty of garlic, ACV, and probios already? 

The person we saw was Gloria, a rehabber who has a bunch of pigeons and mourning doves in her house, all rescues/rehabs. She said she got the idea of homeopathic meds from talking to her personal physician about her birds, and their idea was to use a general antiviral, Arnica. I had written down the info from Cynthia's sticky about homeopathic meds, she was very interested in that (kept the copy for herself), and suggested we use both Arnica and then whichever other of the homeopathic meds Cynthia suggested. She gave us some Arnica 30 potency and said to give 1 a day. 

She also gave us some Lactated ringer's to help keep him well-hydrated. She gave him 6cc subcutaneous fluids which included about 2-3 cc of B complex, to help give him energy she said. Oh and she gave us a seed tube, something she said they use to transition birds from the puppy chow to seeds. It's a plastic tube filled with small seeds with gauze tape over one end with a small opening to stick his beak into. 

Trying to remember everything...oh yeah, she said she had been thinking about the possibility of an inner ear infection causing Oscar's symptoms, but that seeing him, it did seem more like PMV. But she offered the option of treating with antibiotics for 1 week. I said no, we were sure it was PMV. I don't want to give him medications he doesn't need. 

Oh she was also curious about your PMV birds Cynthia (I mentioned them when she brought up the subject of euthanasia), if they now interact with non-PMV birds, and how they're doing now. At which point I kinda blanked a bit, and said I think they mostly manifest symptoms when they're stressed? And I assume they now interact with non-PMV birds but I couldn't remember for sure, so I didn't say.

Well there, I think I told you guys EVERYTHING there was to tell! 

It really is so remarkable to see him during the day, he only shows symptoms maybe 10% of the time. Whereas at night, it's maybe 75% of the time. Maggie, I'm so glad to hear that loving and cuddling is a good thing for PMV birds, I was worried that maybe any kind of stimulation was too exciting. So that is a relief  

Ok so now I have a question. Which homeopathic medicines should we be using (other than the Arnica)? And where is a good place to find them?

Thanks for being there for us!! 

Sabina

P.S. PP, the liquid calcium we have does have D3 or cholecalciferol in it, so I think it should work alright.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I just checked the dosing on the liquid calcium and it's 1 tablespoon. So 1/4 of that is about 3.5 ml. So that's too much to give with a dropper, I think. Oh 1 thing I found during my searching this morning was oyster shell powder for birds. You think we should sprinkle that on his food?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, thank you so much for posting so quickly. I'm really happy about the results of the negative poops - at least that's one less thing to worry about. I don't know anything about the arnica but will be watching your posts to see how it goes. Treesa is the best person to tell you about it.

Kiss that little noggin for me.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2007)

Sabina,
Excess calcium has an ugly habit of filtering out of the blood stream and crystallizing into soft tissues. I would use either one or the other but not both.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't know if it happens in birds but in people too much calcium can also cause kidney stones, especially when asociated with dehydration.

My PMV birds are the most tame and sweetest birds. I had one a couple of years ago, who was a great cuddler, he loved to sleep on Lee's chest. He was a feral and had symptoms 90% of the time but was able to eat and drink and enjoy life, he was tame from the moment we took him in. We still miss him.
They do respond to love and affection, more than the healthy birds.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Belladonna is one that can be used on birds with central nervous system disorders, and sensitvity to light,noise, motion. My rehabber friend has been using it for years, as she is not only a licensed/certified rehabber but also licensed herbologist.

Arnica Montana is a wonderful homeopathic, it is first remedy for use after injury, blunt trauma, swelling, especially bruising, black and blue marks. It is also used for muscle aches and painful effects after over-exercising, sprains, and strains.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Sabina, 

I'm glad to hear that your visit went well for the bird, I'd continue as you 
can w/the natural wormers as they do not always show up in fecal floats 
according to many medical sources I've read. 

My earlier reference for dosing for calcium @ one milliliter per 30 ml of drinking water I should have footnoted, although
not a full quote but this is given as a PO administration for calcium gluconate used for the purpose of calcium supplementation in a general
avian formulary (not species specific) from Agnes Rupley's Manual of Avian Practice and I didn't think that for the sake of having a dose rate immediately
it would hurt the bird if others felt it should be cut down on later. Calcium is absorbed better also w/magnesium and Vitamin C in addition to D3.

There's a general recommendation as well as a specific remedy in Clinical Avian Medicine for Echinacea for viruses in general as an immuno system booster and I wondered if this might be something that would be helpful
for Oscar? 

Sounds like you guys are doing a fantastic job and I'm so glad that you have
the ability to utilize Animal General in case of needed tests should something
arise down the road. It makes your life and the bird's so much easier having
medical help locally.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Oh she was also curious about your PMV birds Cynthia (I mentioned them when she brought up the subject of euthanasia), if they now interact with non-PMV birds, and how they're doing now. At which point I kinda blanked a bit, and said I think they mostly manifest symptoms when they're stressed?


Originally I built my aviary specifically for PMV birds because there was no one else there for them. Four of them are still there (Feefo the Beautiful drowned) and the males are two of the top birds there, with the best nesting sites. Only one of them, a hen, stargazes very occasionally.

Othjer PMV pigeons that have been put in the aviary get along fine. Although one of the new ones has mild residual neurological damage , it hasn't prevented him from winning the affections of a hen and attempting to incubate plastic eggs.

I also have a small aviary for the ones that have severe neurological damage. There are 5 of those, 2 that John found on his balcony and 3 rescued by other people at different locations round the country. I keep them separate because the main aviary has a bath available at all times and I don't want another accidental drowning. I don't know how they would interact with healthy pigeons but as 3 of them are male they spend a lot of time running after each other!

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Cynthia, I'll let Gloria know.

Oscar did incredibly well after coming home from the vet, barely any symptoms at all, even in the evening when he's usually the worst. We figured it must've been the subq fluids/B complex, being better hydrated maybe? He didn't get the arnica till the evening, so couldn't be that. And I only started the calcium today. 

Today he seemed worse, more symptomatic in the day. So I started wondering if we should be syringing fluids (since perhaps hydration was responsible for how well he did yesterday). It had seemed he was drinking ok before, but the longer the periods he's symptomatic, the less he can drink. We're feeling hesitant about it since a) he's never been syringed before and b) it seemed like it would be difficult since the second he's stressed, his head is twisted upside down. 

Also since the B complex was helpful, maybe we should give that? Any suggestion on the form and amount? ANY other advice on supportive care/vitamins/natural or homeopathic remedies very welcome!

Sabina


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

OH!!! i am so so soooooooo glad to hear the trip went well!! i've been at work the last day, and i kept thinking of Oscar. i couldnt get online where i was, so the suspense was KILLING me!!
so, does PMV show in a fecal or not?? is there a way to test for PMV?? does Oscar definately have PMV?? 
i am just positive he will pull through this, really, especially with all the care and love he has right now. the best parents that could of adopted him!! i'm glad to hear he is still cuddly, but i'm sad to hear he's still having symptoms. after seeing that picture of the head turning upside down, i can just picture how horrible that must be.
it seems weird that a neurological disease would give the same symptoms with different patients, doesnt it?? it would seem like it would attack different parts of the brain, thus hurting parts that are responsible for different things, thus different symptoms. but i dont know anything about PMV, and i really am still un-clear about how it works. anyways, i shouldnt even be discussing it so medical like, when it's such a special pigeon suffering. it sounds too clinical, when this situation is much more emotional.
poor Oscar, and i really feel for you and Aias. i'm sure this must be hard for everyone, since i know how attached you both are, and how loved Oscar is by everyone on this forum. we are all pulling for him, and with you both going above and beyond the call of duty, he's got a better chance than he could ever dream of!!
so keep up the good fight, all of you, and tell Mr. Oscar Cosmo i said so, and give him a few hugs and kisses while you're at it. I just figure if I say Mr. Oscar Cosmo he will fulfill those expectations and grow up to live a long life as an adult Mr, rather than the baby he is now...


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Hi Sabina,

I hope Oscar feels better soon. I had to gavage feed my PMV bird for 16 weeks and then the day I had decided to euthanize her (thinking she would never be able to eat on her own with an upside-down head) I went in to check on her and her head was completely upright! She is still spooky and walks in circles sometimes, but after 2 years, she has finally learned how to fly forward a few feet--a major accomplishment! So hang in there, I know it is stressful, but they can pull through this. Why not have a PMV titer run so you can know for sure if that is what you are dealing with? 

L


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, we had to hand feed several of ours for a few weeks but they eventually were able to eat/drink on their own. We did have one that we hand fed for over 1 1/2 years. Someone recently posted about a pigeon they had who was hand fed for 9 years. Now, that is dedication. 


Laura, what is the average cost of a PMV titer?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Moxie, that was very sweet. 

As for figuring out if a bird has PMV, no it's a virus so it doesn't show up in the fecal. Fecal analysis tell you about bacteria, fungus, parasites/worms. Apparently you can check for a titre, which is an antibody response to the virus in the blood. I didn't know the test existed though till Earthapidge suggested it!

But we are sure he has PMV, so I don't think a titre seems necessary. To me, it seems like a pretty classic presentation: watery diarrhea and increased drinking for a few days without any neuro signs, then stargazing, turning in circles, dropping seeds (after he had started eating well on his own for a couple days, he suddenly regressed and we had to go back to hand-feeding). It's relatively mild I think. He can still drink on his own. He helicopters well. Walks well and maintains his balance. No real flying anymore. I think PMV does manifest relatively the same in different birds, it's just that so far, Oscar doesn't get the more severe symptoms, like convulsions or paralysis. 

During the day, he has symptoms maybe 10-20% of the time, and at night, more like 50-75% of the time. The symptoms definitely come on with stress, eg if we pick him up, or if we put him back in his cage after hanging out with us. I'm thinking maybe the increase in night-time symptoms is partly stress due to being kept up by us/our noise/light?

Laura, what else are you thinking it could be besides PMV?

Maggie, I saw that thread about Kabbu and was really impressed by the dedication too--hand-feeding for 9 years! Wow. That is really something. 

fp, we chickened out of giving the calcium with the syringe, instead we put in on his food. (Hate to stress the baby out if we don't have to.) You think that's ok? 

Oh that reminds me, we're still giving puppy chow, but want to switch. I was just looking on Foy's for the pellets, how are the Ace pigeon pellets? Anyone have pellet recommendations? It seems that would be easier than hand-feeding seeds?

Thanks!

Sabina


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> so far, Oscar doesn't get the more severe symptoms, like convulsions or paralysis.


I have never seen those. Feefo used to fall over and then have a lot of trouble getting herself back up again, but I don't think that clasified as a convulsion.

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Cynthia--I guess I shouldn't have said that PMV manifests the same usually, especially given the discussion on other threads of kidney involvement, and other atypical presentations. I've read about fits/convulsive movement and paralysis (in your sticky I think), but if you haven't seen them Cynthia, they must be pretty rare?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

ANY other advice on supportive care/vitamins/natural or homeopathic remedies very welcome!


*Belladonna
B-Complex- avian kind you can administer in water, scroll down on this link: Complexvitamin B.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/fertility/index.html#Complex Vitaminum B

Echinacea-liquid with no alcohol in it
garlic
Liquid calcium *


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Treesa. We had been giving garlic but stopped when the fecal was negative. But we could give a capsule every other day or something along those lines. B complex, that did seem to help him a lot. I'm going to stop by Petco so I'll see if they have any there, otherwise, will order. Belladonna, will also look for. Echinacea, I tend to think of more in the prodromal period of infection, to prevent full-blown infection etc. But again, I don't think would harm...but I think our formulation has alcohol. So lots of shopping for me!!

I think I'm also going to order the Harrison's pellets, seem best (though very expensive!!!)

Sabina


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Hi Sabina,

I feed all of mine Harrisons pellets Adult Lifetime Fine, it's great food. Regarding PMV testing......there are two different tests you can do, a hemagluttination inhibition (HI) test and a PCR test. One is done with blood to test for exposure (vaccinated birds will come up positive too), and the other is done with feces and/or nasal or throat secretions. The virus is shed through a variety of different secretions, but normal in-house veterinary fecals will not be able to identify it since it requires a virus isolation type of test if you submit that kind of sample. I have done both tests on my PMV bird periodically and since her pseudo-recovery, her feces and throat secretions have not turned up positive for the virus. I am getting up my nerve to vaccinate my birds but have heard nightmares about it, so have always been nervous. I am going to test her girlie mate and if she is negative, I will vaccinate her to set my mind at ease, although they have lived together several months now. 

Regarding the price, I really have no idea how much they cost since I get the wholesale/vet cost. But the HI test is much less expensive than the PCR. I have sent most of mine out to Cornell (test is cheap but have to pay for overnight shipping and keep refrigerated) but lately I have been using Antech and probably paying a lot more, but it is more convenient for me right now. 

Is this an indoor outdoor bird, or has he been indoors for a while? If you are really curious about the PMV part, I can always come to your house sometime, draw the blood and send it out for you (depending on your location in Manhattan). I'll try to find out how much it is for you, I think around $50 or so if you are interested. But you are right, knowing might not change anything you are doing. You have to look at the bird's progress, not what's on a piece of paper.

L


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

sabina said:


> *so far, Oscar doesn't get the more severe symptoms, like convulsions or paralysis*.
> 
> Sabina


Sabina,
You, *&* Oscar, are very fortunate in that respect.  



cyro51 said:


> *I have never seen those.*
> 
> Feefo used to fall over and then have a lot of trouble getting herself back up again, but I don't think that clasified as a convulsion.
> 
> Cynthia


And I hope you never do Cynthia.

When Pij's rescuer called me, she said she found a fancy pigeon that 'tumbles' on the ground. Then she said he does 'other tricks' like turns his head upside down & watches the doves above him that shared the same cage.  

The 'tumbling' turned out to be severe seizures.  
You wouldn't believe the size bowl she used for his water. *Two* pigeons could have gotten in it & taken a bath. 

Cindy


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Quick note before I go to sleep--Laura, that's a very sweet offer, but as you mentioned, it doesn't seem necessary since the diagnosis is pretty certain and the results wouldn't affect his care most likely. We found this bird outside about 2 weeks ago. I was going to buy the Harrison's High Potency Fine since that is for sick birds. What nightmares have you heard about PMV vaccinations? I was thinking about that for our other bird (though if she was going to get exposed, it probably already happened)
Sabina


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

sabina said:


> ....... Echinacea, I tend to think of more in the prodromal period of infection, to prevent full-blown infection etc. But again, I don't think would harm...
> 
> Sabina


Hey Sabina,

Here's an excerpt of a previous posting;



feralpigeon said:


> .......
> 
> There's a general recommendation as well as a specific remedy in Clinical Avian Medicine for Echinacea for viruses in general as an immuno system booster and I wondered if this might be something that would be helpful
> for Oscar?
> ...


It is also used during the course of a virus as well  .


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

sabina said:


> Quick note before I go to sleep--Laura, that's a very sweet offer, but as you mentioned, it doesn't seem necessary since the diagnosis is pretty certain and the results wouldn't affect his care most likely. We found this bird outside about 2 weeks ago. I was going to buy the Harrison's High Potency Fine since that is for sick birds. What nightmares have you heard about PMV vaccinations?
> 
> *About vaccines in general a caution/warning that field virus can combine
> with the vacine virus and become deadly in a way that the two separately
> ...


*hope things continue to go well for
your PMV pij.

fp*


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

EarthaPidge said:


> I am getting up my nerve to vaccinate my birds but have heard nightmares about it, so have always been nervous.
> 
> 
> L


I'm curious about this statement. What kind of things have you heard? MOST pigeon fanciers/racers vaccinate every single bird they own. 100's of birds. We vaccinate all of ours. I just vaccinated about 85 birds in the last three months. We vaccinated our youngsters as we weaned them this year instead of having to catch them all and do it later. No problems at all...........


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Hi, the nightmares I have heard were deaths due to improper administration, nothing to do with the vaccine itself. So if Renee can give me some tips, I will feel much better about vaccinating my two unvaccinated ones. 

The comment (not sure who originally made it) about the vaccine combining with the field virus and causing death or something like that, is something that I hear a lot of pigeon rehabbers saying, but it just isn't true. If a bird dies after giving the vaccine it isn't because the bird was positive for the virus to begin with. Vaccine reactions don't work like that and I'm not sure if anyone knows enough about vaccine reactions in birds. From what Renee is saying, she and lots of pigeon fanciers have vaccinated without ever having a problem which is good to know.

Do you all test possibly exposed birds prior to vaccinating? 

Laura


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> > MOST pigeon fanciers/racers vaccinate every single bird they own. 100's of birds. We vaccinate all of ours. I just vaccinated about 85 birds in the last three months. We vaccinated our youngsters as we weaned them this year instead of having to catch them all and do it later. No problems at all...........


I share L's misgivings since this was posted on fprc (our yahoo group):

"We vaccinated 500 birds in one day. 2 died. 3 came up real sick. I gave Amoxacillian to help the birds along. Plus the cod liver oil and brewers yeast. They all made it. For us we feel we have to vaccinate as we show, race and rescue birds. Once PMV is in the loft it can be devastating. If you vaccinate one bird, you have to do them all."

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*oscar getting better!*

So Oscar seems a lot better now! He's been better the last few days. His symptoms are really minimal during the day, and now, not even that bad at night. I don't know if it's just a very mild case of PMV or if his treatment is helping. He's been getting calcium about 75 mg a day, with vit D3 40 IU (I just realized we were supposed to be giving that twice a day, but we were only doing once). He's getting a few drops of an avian liquid vitamin which contains all the B vitamins plus vit A and D. He gets arnica once a day. We haven't been doing the ACV or garlic since his fecal came back negative. He gets some electrolytes in his water (the lactated ringer's given by Animal General). We had meant to get the belladonna and echinacea, but...well, he was doing ok with what we had, and then the hectic work week started.

Should we continue the calcium? Cynthia, you said you only gave it for 3 days. He's gotten it so far 5 days, but once a day. 

I was reading in Clinical Avian Medicine that some birds do recover in 3-4 weeks. He's been with us 2 1/2 weeks. 

He weighs as much as Pinky now, 300 grams!

So you can see how he is...Aias already posted this in his original "Found a squeaker" thread...some photos and a video of his helicoptering skills!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/100fires/tags/oscar/

http://lordsmessengers.com/fotos/oscar.mov

Sabina


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

OH!! i am so so soooo happy!! and i will try what you guys have done on my bird. it doesnt sound as if mine is as bad as Oscar was, but i dont want him to get worse.
give Oscar lots of love from me, i'm gonna go check out the other thread!! That video of Oscar is too much!! how cute!! he is so adorable, i'm coming down RIGHT NOW to see him!!! lol


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Cynthia, you said you only gave it for 3 days. He's gotten it so far 5 days, but once a day.


Jules gave it for longer than I did and had good results, so I will give a longer course to the next bird I get.

Cynthia


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*another oscar update*

oscar seems cured. the last couple of days he has shown no pmv symptoms and his poops have been improving steadily, today was the first day of perfect poops.

he is flying alright, getting stronger every day, and i am sure that if we would let him fly all over the apt. he would be even better. it is getting more difficult to keep him in one room, which we need to do to keep him separate from ms pinky brown.

here he is keeping me company at my computer: 










i had only slept 3 hours the previous night and was staring blankly at my monitor until he pulled on my earring to wake me up


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He's such a sweet baby. I am so happy he shows no symptoms anymore.

Reti


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

that is why you are his number one fan!  



Reti said:


> He's such a sweet baby. I am so happy he shows no symptoms anymore.
> 
> Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aias, that is the cutest picture. One of my favorite things about pigeons is their curiosity. They want to investigate everything and Oscar looks like he is getting ready to delicately check out your earring. I'm happy he is over his symptoms. He is a sweetheart.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that he is better. He is such a cute pidge!

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for the update, and pic Aias, I'm so glad to hear he seems to be cured! Yippee !


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

thanks for your nice comments! when oscar tugs at my nose ring it hurts though!!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Aias said:


> that is why you are his number one fan!



YES   
Give him a kiss from me.

Reti


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Aias said:


> thanks for your nice comments! when oscar tugs at my nose ring it hurts though!!


Well, let him have it - he's the boss 

John


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

So now that Oscar has had no symptoms for 3 days now...should we stop his treatment? He's still getting the homeopathic Arnica, we have about 16 left. We stopped the calcium and the B complex 3 days ago. Was thinking we could just ship everything left over to Moxie...

Sabina


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Sabina,

In my homeopathic treatment for birds book it says to stop the treatment as soon as there is an improvement so yes, I would stop it now.

It takes a lot of head and muscle control to peck at an ear ring. One of my woodies does that and I always worry about the ear lobe getting torn, but he is very gently.

Cynthia


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