# Deformed baby pigeon?



## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I got a baby pigeon from a friend that has been racing them for 35 years, as I was told! He told me he wanted to breed his best birds for future racing, and took a chance, Grandfather to Granddaughter who were already closely inbred! He moved this pair with babes, breeding coop and all when they were about 6 days old in the back of a pickup truck about 15 miles! Well that night he said the small one was not looking good! so he removed the bigest babe for four hours to see if parents would care for the little one. Needless to say they did not, so he brought it to me! Crop was empty, bird was cold, I thought it was dead, not even moving! He gave it water and force fed it pigeon seeds and some gravel! Then left! Lol! Two days later after reading, I started it on the Kaytee formula, I thought it was perking up, but he came over said it needed seeds and more grit! So I thought he must know, so he fed it as such! Then as I have been reading the posts here I think the little feller could have slow crop! So I have been giving him very watery Kaytee, but I can still feel the grit in his crop! So when the owner came back to check on him, he told me he was deformed, no feathers, his feet are all crooked and his wings are dry and shriveled! He said I needed to kill him! I said NO! It is now my bird! He told me it will die, never feather, never walk, never fly! How will I know?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Right now it should be 12 or 13 days old and it looks like 6 days old! Naked and bony! But happy to see me and eat!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi there, 

Thank you for your concern for this unfortunately handled and treated young pigeon. 

You're doing the right thing by feeding him the kaytee formula and keeping it watery for now to help get the crop moving along. He shouldn't have been force feeding it seeds and grit at 6 days old. 

Unfortunately, you won't know if the bird is too far along to help unless you try and see if it improves.

Can you take and post some pictures for us to see how bad off the bird might be?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

His crop fills with air so I am giving him very watered down Kaytee, but he peeps at me and is very hungry now! I burp him and then he feels better but it dosn't last long! I can feel the grit at the bottom of his crop even tho it is all water! Could that be plugging him up!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and welcome to pigeons.com

Thank you for helping this needy little one.

Do you have a small box for the tiny one? Please make sure the baby is kept warm, you can use a heating pad set on low, and keep a towel between the youngster and the heating pad. Please cover baby with light towel also.

Make sure no air draft gets on the youngster, keep in quiet area with subdued light.

The baby should be eating baby bird formula, no grit or seed. Continue with the thin mix of formula.

Where do you live?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

There is still a chance for this baby to grow up to a healthy pigeon.
Do not feed him any more seeds and grit for now, just give him three-four times a day about 15cc's of Kaytee. 
Keep the baby warm, on a heating pad set on low lined with a towel. Also very important to keep his feet together on a rough surface, like a washcloth, or a towel made into a donut, you can place the baby in the hole of the donut.
Some calcium wouldn't hurt him, you can purchase it at pet stores ,specifically formulated for birds.
They also should have vitamins and wheat germ oil for birds, you can add a drop once every two days in his formula.
About 30 min a day he would also need some natural sunlight.
From the health food store you can purchase probiotics for human consumption, you can give him al ittle of it once a day added to the formula.

Thank you so much for caring for this little guy, hope he makes it and grows into a sweet healthy pigeon.

Reti


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Yes! I need to get my camera back from my daughter! I will do that in the morning! And will post pics if I can figure it out as I am new here! I would have done that today but got on this forum and was reading all day! I can keep and take care of a deformed pigeon, as long as I can see it will have some quality in life. Can at least walk to eat drink and poop!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the care and kindness you are showing this baby.

How much formula is the baby taking at a feeding?

Any poops coming out the back end?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Yes, he is in a tub with a cover that I drilled holes in, sorta tupawear style! Maybe 8 by 14 inches, and yes I have a heating pad under it at all times, and he is in a stainless steele bowl on a washcloth with a paper towel half over his bowl.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

His poops look good to me! Maybe a very little watery, but I read I need to get his crop empty! He is so boney and naked, that I don't dare give him just water for 2 days! So I am giving him watery Kaytee! But his crop is never less than half full and I can feel that grit in the bottom, could that be pluging him up? I can feel like 20 grains of grit!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

This baby is now begging for food, but I never see its crop empty, so I have been giving him very watery Kaytee mix! Should I feed him more tonight?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

When I feed him he will eat till he blows up! Whats with that?
So I thought maybe not digesting, that is why i give him watery Kaytee!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Baby pigeons are like baby humans. They will eat until they are sick and in this case, die.

Control the amount of food you give him. Watery food is ok at the beginning. But you should progressively improves consistency to a normal one. Do it over 2-3 days. The crop will swell like a small balloon when they are so young. BE CAREFUL not to over do it or it will kill her.

Seeds, grits is a no-no. I never did that so I don't know what will happen for sure. I would keep it on your Kaytee mix for a few weeks. I think she has a good chance of making it if you protect her from cold and provide reasonable subsistence.

Don't worry that her growth is behind his time. With proper food, she will catch up. The wings should be the last thing to catch up in development. The body should show yellow hairs turning into feathers first.

I have rescued quite a few like that during the last decade. They all made it. Btw, I've always used Hagen's breeding mash. But Kaytee should do fine (never used it though).

One last advice, feed it often, but feed her smaller quantity. At night she will want to sleep and there is no need to feed her. But start early if you can ~ 7:00AM. When they are so young, I used to feed them from ~7:00AM to ~10-11:00PM. About 4-6 times a day. And watch that balloon.

One more thing I just remembered, make sure that her "nest" is not too wide at the bottom. Otherwise the bird could grow with one leg/feet pointing at 45 degree. When the bird tries to stand on its feet for a few seconds, no feet should "slide" to the side. The bird will back up and s**t outside the nest (assuminf the nest is reasonnable size). They were born with that knowledge in their head.

Please post pics and ask any questions you may have. I've done so many like that and they are so cute. The bird will bond with you and will be an outstanding pet.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thanks! Numbernine! I am hoping he won't be so deformed! And no I did not agree with the seed and grit, but it was his bird and I knew nothing at the time! So you think he might have a chance?


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Yes. It will depend on how quickly it can recover. Good nutrients and proper temp is the key. It is important that your kaytee mix is not too liquid. Don't go to the other extreme and make it too thick. Better a bit too liquid than too solid, just don't go to extremes.

Like I said, I never gave it seeds and grits at such an early age. We'll see what happen. But I think it can recover. Don't worry and do your best. I haven't seen any pics of it, but I don't think it will be deformed. I should be able to tell you after I've seen the pics.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

After 2 days on the watery Kaytee mixture, I think the seeds have digested, but I can still feel grit in his crop! Maybe 10 to 20 grains of it, will it go away? Why does he still want to eat and his crop is always looking full, but can only be watery Kaytee mix?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I will get pics to u tomorro gotta get my camera


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Baby pigeons don't know better. They'll eat all the time, even if it kills them. Make sure the balloon is NOT too large. Better a bit too small than a bit too large. Improve the consistency of the kaytee mix. Make it liquid, but not so much watery. Otherwise it won't get the nutrients it needs.

If I were to guess, the grits will stay there for some time. Probably until it is ready to eat seeds or close to it.

I edited my first post. You may want to re-read it. Thank you.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Man I don't know! I went and seen the other baby hatched the same day! It looks close to flying, and mine is still naked and his legs don't work! Now I am scared! But I will keep trying! There must be something geneticaly wrong here!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

He is underdeveloped and weak. Give him a chance by providing him good food and proper temp and you might be surprised. 

Once you start giving it less diluted Kaytee, it will improved, I can assure you. I bet in a week you won't recognize it because it will have improved so much. Birds adapt easily. 

Btw, thanks for caring. 

P.S. I treated a few that were in shape similar to yours.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Do you think I dare to thicken his Kaytee mixture? He is always at a nearly full crop and thinks he's starving! But I have never seen him with an empty crop so I,m not sure! Well it was totally empty when he came here! But he was unresponsive also and came back! Everything I have read is that there crop should empty before feeding! Maybe I feed to much! Lol


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I hope so I will start giving him normal Kaytee mixture in the morning! Maybe I worry to much about crop not emptying!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Yes, improve consistency of your mix. Not so watery, but not too, too thick. It's also easier to feed when consistency is in "the middle". It's always a trade off. Watery is easy and ok at the beginning. But the bird isn't getting a lot of nutrients. And this one needs it!

Too thick is very nutritious for the bird, but can be a pain to feed, not to mention that it can be dangerous to the bird's health. If it's very thick , it will be more difficult for the bird to move the food down. So make it not too liquid and not too solid. So it's easy to feed and the bird gets a good amount of nutrients.

No, the crop doesn't need to be empty. I used to feed them every few hours. So they always had food. Except in the morning the crop was mostly empty because of no feeding overnight. They want to sleep at night. They need to build up strength. There is no need to feed them like human babies.

Use your judgement about the crop. If the bird is alive with a certain size of balloon, then never go over that size and you won't jeopardize the bird's life. If it happens that you cannot feed during a certain number of hours druring the day and the crop empties itself, then no big deal. Just feed it as soon as you can.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Maybe I need to go by my own gut feelings and feed that babe what he wants! But I am so afraid I will make a bad boo, boo! I love that ugly lookin thing with no feathers, I sure hope that breeder is wrong and it will grow feathers!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

It should develop perfectly fine if you provide it the proteins, vitamins, minerals, ash, etc. . Feathers and the rest will come with good food and good care.

Yes, you can use your gut feeling. You'll learn with practice. Just be careful. If the crop expand too much, it will burst and the bird will die. It is for this reason I wrote so much on controlling how much food you give the bird. Like I said earlier, better a bit less than a bit too much.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I was feeding it by the directions on the box untill this babes crop never emptyed, not to mention the owner giving more seeds and grit! I guess I am to worried! I will feed that guy what ever he wants in the morn. Maybe I need to trust myself. You will be very surprised at the pics I put on here tomorro,This baby looks half its age and can't walk or move at 13 days old! But he loves eating! But his crop never emptys! Right now it feels like a bag of water! But a full bag of water!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Another way of looking at is that the only way to get the rocks and probably fermented seeds out would be a surgical procedure involving making a small incision into the crop to empty all the contents. A vet can do that or a doctor if you know one that would. That's almost your only other option at this point besides hoping the bird grows just enough for the swelled seeds and rocks to make their way through. That would need to be sewed back up immediately, of course.

Best of luck.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

What about the gas or air in his crop? Is that normal or just a stress thing?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Yes I will look for a good Vet to help me tomorro! The one I have been talkining to is to busy!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

More than likely, there is a candida infection that's caused by the grains that haven't gone through. That's a fungal infection that you can counter with Nystatin, which is a common topical drug that's used by women for yeast infections. Candida causes a fermentation and gas buildup. It's certainly not good. Can you get your doctor to get you some Nystatin? It's not absorbed in the gut so it'll only work on what's in the GI. Formula is the most susceptible to it although it would have started because of the grains that didn't go through.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Click on the "Pidgey" above this post and a drop-down menu will appear. One of the choices will be an email. Use that and send me an email and I'll send you a page or two out of a veterinary book that details the procedure. If he's an avian vet, he won't need it. But if he's a regular vet, he may be real reluctant to do it.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Pidgey! Wow Thanks that will be a beginning I will try and get some tomorro Thanks! I know I can get it, to many Vets around here, but not all listen!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dnrslucky1,


Make sure their food is 'wrist temperature' and make it so in a cup, in a pan of hot water not in a microwave.

Too, I have had good luck treating a gaseous-inflated-slow Crop by having their water and food-mixing-water be Two tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar in a gallon of Water.

Recently I was advised it should be only "one" tablespoon to the gallon, and with that my success was not so good. I would tend to have them on this water for about a week.

That or get some 'Nystatin'...

Often, the slow Crop or gasseous crop is Candida and it can kill them and glog them up all through their system.


Good luck!


Post some images...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Ok! I took some pics today, but not sure if this will work!
http://community.webshots.com/user/dnrslucky1


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is that first picture of two siblings from the same clutch?

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

The first pic is to show the 2 that were hatched the same day! You can see my baby is way behind! But this morning its crop was totally empty except for the grit and it seemed much stronger! They were both born on Oct. 2. I have been feeding the small one since Sunday evening, but didn't get the Kaytee formula till Monday afternoon. I did get vitamins, calcium supplement, wheat germ oil and the apple cider vinager today.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Yes from the same clutch!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dnrslucky1,


How curious...

Well, he has grown, certainly, since hatching..!

Since he is eating and getting planty of water in his food formula, which for h is age can be mixed to about the consistancy of a decent Milk-Shake...

Maybe just the one Tablespoon of the raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the gallon or a little more...for five days say...

If...you elect to try that regimen for possible Candida.

If you have a decent Vet or avian Vet, they can do a swab test and tell you yes-or-no if Candida is present in serious amounts in the Crop. Takes them just a minute to do.

Nystatin is regarded as a very good drug to treat it also.

It or the ACV will also prevent continueing multiplications of many other yeasty or mold related Crop infections/infestations.

Definitely keep him warm!


Best of luck to both!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

The original owner told me it was born half the size of its sibling and its egg was smaller and round instead of oval! But the parents must have fed it for a few days. But like I said I thought it was dead on Saturday when he brought it in to me! It has doubled in size since I took over all care, but it has a long way to go!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Boy, that's way behind. That little fellow has been virtually starving to death for a lot of that time. Before that left leg gets to growing outward like that, you're going to need to take positive measures to get it held back more or less level with the right one. If you have to use masking tape to do it, then so be it. Since there's not much by way of feathers, that might work.

Now, when it comes to feeding Kaytee, you want about 10 to 15 percent of the body's weight to go through in a single meal, three times per day. Obviously, this guy hasn't been allowing that because of the grit blocking off the lower esophageal inlet at the bottom of the crop. It is for the purpose of clearing that so you can get more food through that I sent you all those pages. Have you talked to a vet about that yet? It's kinda' late on a Friday.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Why do you think it hasn't started to feather and it seems all the yellow down is falling off? Also 1 leg is always tucked up barely moving and the other one is always stretched way out, and his toes don't open. His wings seemed a little softer today, not shriveled and dry, I thought that was a good sign!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I called several vets today! They either did not do birds or were to busy, and would not give meds untill seen!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Question about the apple cider vinegar mix! Should I give that separate with a dropper before a feeding or mix that in the Kay Tee instead of regular water? Also with the formula supposing to have vitamins, can I over vitamin him with the supplements?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't know what to tell you about the vitamins. Vitamin A is poisonous in humans if you get too much and the bird vitamins that I occasionally put in the water for some of them has way more Vitamin A than I would like. The Kaytee theoretically has all the vitamins that they need but what you really need to get into the bird is protein, fats and minerals. That means pure bulk of food and that's what you've been limited on. 

I'd make up the water/ACV mixture and give that to the bird in both the food and water. Since he's drinking more than normal to get food to pass through, I'd probably go with the 1 Tbsp/gal amount.

Where are you, anyway? Maybe there's a local person or rehabber in your area that keeps pigeons and/or has some medications that we can find.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I live in Hamilton Michigan, a very small town, the closest large cities are 
Grand Rapids, Holland and Kalamazoo.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, these are racers in your area that you can try calling for help. Some of them will have meds and some won't. What you're probably looking for is Medistatin, which is marketed by a pigeon supply house. It's really Nystatin, but in powdered form. I'm going to start listing folks and I'll keep editing this post adding them until I've found all I'm probably going to find:

Club Name : ZEELAND PC 
Club Code : ZEE 
Club Secretary : HUB VANDER VELDE 
City : ZEELAND 
State : MI 
Phone No. : 616-772-2322

Club Name : GRAND RAPIDS RPC 
Club Code : GRM 
Club Secretary : JOAN SLENTZ 
City : GREENVILLE 
State : MI 
Phone No. : 616-754-6965

Okay, that's it for racers. Now you have to know that these entries are of the club secretaries. In some cases, that may be a "me, myself and I" club; in others it's a group of 20 club members. So you could be looking at only two people to call or 40, you just don't know. Out of all of them, it's possible that someone will have Medistatin. It's also possible that one or more of them would be capable of doing that surgery. That's because racers often get birds back from a race that have wounds and the vet bills can get big so they eventually learn how to sew them up. A torn crop isn't that uncommon and the only difference is that you'd be looking at making your own tear in order to get that junk out, then sewing it back up. These things happen.

Pidgey


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1,

I would suggest you to seek an experienced rehabber. It is now Friday evening, if you cannot find anyone to help you until Monday, I would advise you to give Kaytee in a proper texture and check it's droppings. 

Maybe a few hours after feeding a proper mixture of Kaytee (not too liquid), you could take a pic of its dropping and post it here. Make sure there is plenty of light so that we can see the colour of its dropping.

In spite of the grits and in spite of the seeds, the bird _could_ recover on its own. Some of the birds I rescued looked just like yours, minus the grits & seeds in the crop and maybe minus the black on the head. There was no way for me to know how many days old there were. I just kept feeding them Hagen's breeding mash and they ALL recovered. Except occasionally one of the legs was not as straight as it should be. But it never prevented the bird from living a normal life. Good luck.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

My sister is a wildlife rehabber and has been helping me some, she has givin me some antibiotics. I have hand fed baby cockatiels but they where very healthy to start with! As of this morning Mr Peepers is now being called Mr Squeaker! He is much louder! He even has budding feathers tonight! I will wrap him in a wash cloth so his leg can't splay and put him in a smaller bowl!
He is also on the apple cider mix and extra vitamins including calcium and wheat germ oil! And Yes I have been slowly thickening his formula to almost a pudding style, after I seen his crop finally was empty this morn besides the grit! He or should I say she? Is very allert eyes wide open and clear, sleeping in my lap for a few mins tho! Gotta have some love to right!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Make sure to go easy on the ACV. At such an early age, make sure to follow the instruction provided by others.

If Kaytee is as nutritious as Hagen's breeding mash, I would have done without extra calcium as well as the other stuffs, (except for the ACV). The reason is that when you give extra stuffs, it has to be very carefully "calibrated" . Too much of a good thing can kill you.

Glad to hear he/she is doing better. Good luck.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I will only give the extra calcium and vitamins every 2 days, but the cider mix I will use to mix the formula with. I am so surprised at his improvement today that I hope I'm not expecting to much!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You can set some coarse small twigs, elected so they lay flat across eachother, and let him/her nest on those in their little shallow bowl. That allows otherwise splaying legs-feet to have something to grip.

Keep them warm also! If they are not warm enough their food will ferment and maybe that is how all this Crop business actually started.

I have seen plenty of small Babys stuffed full with Seeds when brought to me, who passed them fine...

If they get Candida from chill slowing their digestive and Crop functions, it can lead to lots of problems, so keep him warm at all times...and with the ACV Water for his formula mixing and drinking, he will soon pass whatever grit is in there, or, if not, then as Pidgey mentions, maybe get it removed with a surgical proceedure, but I will bet as his possible Candida abates, he will pass whatever is in there just fine.

Make sure your KT is mixed thoroughly and served warm,DO NOT MICROWAVE IT, warm it in a pan of hot water in a little cup or glass while stirring well...dab some on your wrist...it should feel like "no" temperature...not hotter, not cooler than that.

...'soupy' chow is fine for now as the extra liquid will just pass through anyway helping to flush things...his system is probably prefering extra water now TO flush things anyway.

Get the 'Nystatin' or equivelent a.s.a.p. and find the make sure you can determine the correct dosage for him in useing it.

I do think the Hagen's Breeding Mash is a better choice than the K-T and is is easy to order a bag of it on line and it is not expensive.

Thanks again NumberNine for recommending it...!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you all very much! He is being kept warm with a heating pad at all times, sometime I think he maybe a little to warm so I doubled the towel


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I meant the towel under his box, and yes I will go picking twigs tomorro!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Ok, a pigeon breeder gave me this and told me I could give my baby a syringe full every day untill better. Is it good or not? Sulmet, sulfamethazine sodium 12.5%. I will not give till someone says it is ok!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I really believe this little guy or gal is gonna make it, he or she must be a real fighter to have survived this long! I just hope he or she will be able to walk and fly! When the time is right, I will choose a good name! Love goes a long way! If it were not for all the help I have been given here, he or she would not have had a chance! So I want to say thank you all very much, because without you all I would not still be posting!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> I do think the Hagen's Breeding Mash is a better choice than the K-T and is is easy to order a bag of it on line and it is not expensive.
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Gee Phil, thanks for the endorsement  I always figured that there must be at least one thing I'm doing right..


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1,

Make sure to keep the bird warm enough. You can tell if the bird is too hot by observing its behavior. If it is breeding with the beak always open, then it is too hot.

At such a young age, catching a cold can kill them. Unless you react very quickly to reverse the situation. You seem to be doing fine so far. Keep paying attention to the bird and use your common sense plus a bit of the advice provided here. Can't help you with the sulfamethazine sodium 12.5%. Never used it. Others will help you.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

He has always breathed with his beak open and still does! Maybe he can't close it, I hope not


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Don't worry so much. In any case, even if the bird is a bit too warm, it is not likely to kill it. But if it is a bit too cold, it is likely to kill it if the situation persists for days and days.

Since it has survived in your care since Monday (?), then it must have acceptable living conditions!

By the beak open, I meant wide open.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Oh no, its beak is never wide open until feeding time! only slightly open at all times. Maybe that is normal I don't know, but he is much better tonight! I can't wait to see him in the morning!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Sulmet is often used to treat coccidia in pigeons. It is a good and effective drug. Sorry to say that I've been so wrapped up in other things that I'm not sure if you think coccidia is the problem or something else.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Babys often breathe in a labored fashion, and or with Beaks slightly parted...

If too 'hot' they will pant and get a kind of glazed look to their eyes or appear flushed and uncomfortable or feverish looking...

If they seem alert and comfortable they are likely fine.

Make sure they are protected from drafts...

'Warm' should be about what our own body temp is, thereabouts anyway.

I am not familiar with "sulfamethazine sodium"...but...

See http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=520.2261b


Looks like a commercial drug for poultry raising in incidence of coccidiosis and some other illnesses but maybe not intended or suited for probable Candidiosis...and maybe not suited for the very tender or young such as this one is.

You can get Nystatin at most pharmacies but you might need a perscription...so, visit a pharmacy and talk with the pharmacist and explain to them what you are doing, and or get a scrip or get some Nystatin from any Vet or friendly MD you might know.

If they do not have Candidiosis it will not harm them so long as dosage is appropriate. If they do have it, it will help them get over it.

Or, the ACV water may work nicely as well.

I think the ACV Water does seem to work well if the Candidiosis is not severe.

If yours is still pooping, then it is not what I would call 'severe'. But it is serious and you should get it dealt with a.s.a.p.

Best wishes...

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I am trying to help his legs, so I have added some pics, if this is not the right way or will not work Please tell me! I have never done this sort of thing with legs but I want to give him best chance to walk! Also, do you think I am keeping him in a comfortable tub, it is always on a heating pad set on low! 
http://community.webshots.com/user/dnrslucky1
Thank You!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

He or she is looking a little better each day now! I am doing the apple cider mix with each feeding and also the wheat germ oil at 2 drops per day! I give extra vitamins every other day! He is not looking so dryed out now his wings are soft and spongy, before they were dry and hard! Feathers are beginning as small black dots. And that breeder told me he would never feather, walk or fly and wanted to destroy him! Well, he would have had to fight me to get near it! I will show him! I hope I'm not getting my hopes up to high!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Fresh, a 'new' Bottle, of Olive OIl may be better than most Wheat Germ Oils, which tend to either be rancid from the get-go, or to become rancid very fast.

Rancidity interferes with vitamine absorbtion and other nutritional matters, which is one reason I dislike the use of dry dog or cat foods, but in a pinch, they are better than nothing.

They need lots of protean to make all these Feathers, as well as to grow generally of course...


Now, too, this little one would likely be very happy to feed in a more natural way if you wished to let him.

My own method is to let them eat from the hollow back-side of a regular people-baby Nipple.

If you like, I can e-mail you a bunch of info on that as well as on formulas and other details. Just write to me from your regular e-mail to mine, I am

[email protected]

And I will send. It is too long and rambley for the posts here.

Good going dnrslucky1..!


Now...

Get some twigs under him for his little feet to grip...just layer a handfull of clean straight-ish twigs criss cross in the bowl...so they are stable.

Set a cardboard box on it's side, on a table, so the one side is open.

Put your heating pad and bowl in it, and, on the open side, drape a light cloth so the cloth hangs down and covers the open side.

Check the interior and the Bird of course to get the arrangement right for him to be warm enough. If a 'low' setting is not enough, try medium and add another towell layed over the heating pad and box bottom.

The open tub for various reasons is not good.

Too, a much more shallow 'bowl' like say a pie-pan or cake-pan is better. The Baby will naturally wish to move or shuffle as they can to point their little butt over the side of what they take to be their nest, to poop. Your bowl will make them slide back in and defeat their desire to do this.

Get a cake pan, like it with a layer of twigs...and have a box on it's side and so on...the Baby will be much better off and will not be frustrated as it wishes to try and use those legs.

If no cake pan is handy or easy to get, skip it and just layer and lay a little area of twigs ON the towell itself, and the baby will accept "that" configuration just fins for what it takes to be it's nest, and soon as it is able, it will begin to move more and to poke it's butt over the side of that to poop.

Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I just bought the wheat germ oil but if you think olive oil is better I will get some, should I do the same 2 drops per day? As for his legs did I do Ok or is that not looking right? I don't think his feet can grab a trig but I will go get some now!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Twigs like these, won't that be unfortable for him to be sitting on naked? Sorry I am just brand new to pigeons!
http://community.webshots.com/user/dnrslucky1


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Regarding the feet, I would NOT wrap the bird like you did. I consider this bird to be in a fragile state and I'm not too keen on wrapping it like that.

When I had a foot/leg pointing in the wrong direction, I had sewed a little sock attached to an elastic material. One leg attached to the other. It never completely fixed the problem. It would help, but never got the legs exactly like they were supposed to.

Given where this bird is coming back from, it should be the least of your worries. As the bird grow and get stronger, I suspect the legs will improve on their own. It might not be perfect, but it should be more than fine to live the life of a pigeon.

Most crucial is to get the birds the nutrients its need and in proper quantities. Mother Nature should do the rest. In about a week you should have a much better idea of the direction this bird is going.

I use a digital thermomether next to the bird in order to determine the temp. I usually put it about 2" next to the bird. The temp I look for is around 30C-32C or 86F-90F.

Just observe the bird, the breeding is always heavy at such an early age, but the beak is mostly closed. Observe the bird when you take it away from the source of heat to feed it. After a few minutes, the way it breathes is the way it should be when heat is provided to it. But like I said, a bit too cold might kill it. While a bit too warn will be less damaging to its health. It will just make the bird uncomfortable and more tired as it is wasting more precious energy due to too warm. It also dehydrates the bird faster. Ideally, you should have the temp just right. 

It makes about a week now that you have it, so I guess you are doing not too bad


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

No do not use hard materials like the ones on the pictures. Don't try to fix everyting wrong with the bird. You won't succeed. Your priorities should be; keep it alive, keep it growing, keep it well fed and keep it warm. Feathers, flying and the rest should follow. 

If you wish to fool around with the legs, wait at least one week. Give it a chance to gain some strength. 

My 2 cents.


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

For a single baby of this size, I use a small jar and put enough material (towel) on the sides to create a "nest for one". Where the bird cannot spread its legs to the side. It's just large enough for one bird to sit. The bird is sitting on some sort of towel.

The jar I use was a "small margarine jar". About 4" in diameter and about 1 1/2" tall. I pad it all around to reduce the opening in order to accomodate a single bird.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wheat germ oil or olive oil, both are ok. Wheat germ oil is given to sick or stressed birds. But discontinue after four days, then you start again a week or ten days later.
The legs should be addressed as early as possible. Splay legs are harder to correct as the bird grows.

Reti


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

The problem with trying to fix everything is sometimes you can do more harm than good. In particular when it's the first hatchling you handle.

When helping birds, I always weight the risk versus the benefit and set priorities. To me, the first priority is to keep the bird alive (and healthy). The second priority is that it can fly. After that, it's what I call, "nice to have". For example, it's nice to have the legs/toes perfect, but if in doing so you might jeopardize the overall health of the animal, then don't bother and wait until the bird is a bit stronger. An experience rehabber can take more risks than someone who is helping its first pigeon. Just my opinion.

If this bird makes it, it will have feathers, it will fly and should be able to walk. I cannot remember how many adults birds I've seen on the streets where they are walking on two sticks! No toes, no pads.

My 2 cents.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You are right, if you don't know what you are doing then don't try to do everything at once. But, there is also the risk, if the legs are severely splayed the bird won't be able to walk or fly.
Having no toes, just stumps still enables the bird to take of and fly. If it can't even stand, then it can't take off.
My vet tried to correct one of my bird's splayed legs at three weeks of age, it never worked even though she was in a cast for a whole month.
Angel can walk and fly only on rough surfaces, on tiles and wood, she just lays flat on her belly. It is very disabling.

Reti


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Oh boy! Should I or shouldn't I? That is now the question! Sticks or no sticks, taped leg or not, this is getting harder by the min. All I know is he/she is doing very well right now, with the extra vitamins, calcium and wheat germ oil!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Continue what you are doing. If she is doing better already, wait a few more days for her to gain more strength. In the meantime I don't see why not to give her the twigs. If the legs are still splayed in a few days you can start revieving the options for fixing them.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sorry that all the wide variety of advice you are getting is confusing. All of the advice is valuable, but you are the one right there with the little baby and are going to have better "instincts" about things than we can possibly have from afar. 

I would absolutely =not= use sticks with this little one, at least not at this point. I =would= either tape the legs in place or put it in a container that is wide enough at the top for the baby to sit comfortably but tapering to a smaller diameter at the bottom to force the legs to stay in place under the baby and not splayed out to the sides. It has always been my experience with splayed legs that the sooner you attempt to correct the problem, the more likely you are to succeed. The "tapering" container is done as NumberNine has described.

Obviously, the most important thing right now is to keep the baby alive, growing, and as healthy as possible. Still, I think the splayed legs have to be addressed ASAP.

Hang in there! You've done an awesome job thus far!

Terry


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I will try it midway! Straw with a couple twigs! Will keep feeding as I have, seems to be doing very well, except for the gas build up in crop, hopeing the apple cider vinager mix will take care of that! But I know his legs are not good, so I will try a gentler way of dealing with that.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I honestly don't want to add to all the confusion but please do not give a baby this size any grit, or Sulmet. Read the instructions carefully on your Kaytee package and follow those. He is also growing rapidly right now so the bandage you have around his middle may be too restricting which could account for the breathing problem. I would remove the bandage.

A baby this size has few needs, a warm bed (not twigs), food and love. I have not had a pigeon with splay legs so I can offer no hands on advice about that.

All the best with this sweet pigeon.

maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dnrslucky1 said:


> Twigs like these, won't that be unfortable for him to be sitting on naked? Sorry I am just brand new to pigeons!
> http://community.webshots.com/user/dnrslucky1



Prolly be allright...but twice as long would be much better...and maybe a little more slender ones at that if you can. Lay them into a sort of criss cross so they are not loose.

Others will know better than I the regimen for the splayed leg issue, as to how to tape or stabalize...

Your Bird seems to be, in effect, a week old or so, so normally they are not walking anyway but to move in a shuffle a little to poop over the nest side...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

How's about dry pine needles, or tobacco stems if you can get them. That's what I use for nesting materials.
Daryl


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sadly, it often happens that some things are either not made clear, or in this case, I sent info privately.

Not 'Sticks", fine twigs. 

if anyone has ever seen a Pigeon's nest, they tend to be made of fine twigs, stems, Feathers and so on.

Now, privately, I had suggested what I myself do - 

Have a BOX on it's side with one end open. IN THIS have a heating Pad, and ON the Heating pad have a white towell covering it and the box 'bottom'.

ON THAT have a "shallow" cake pan or the likes, in which one has fine twigs set on a little wash cloth towell or similar.

Now, a small RUMPLED towell is also a decent choice to make instead of fine twigs.

Baby Pigeons like to poop over the side of what they construe to be their Nest. The better defined and more textured it is, the easier they may do so. This is their early business and their little shuffles to do it are their preliminary 'walkings'.

Round 'bowls' - unless filled to their tops with something so the Bird is in effect the same as IF in a shallow Cake-Pan - discourage and frustrate their innate disposition TO poop over the side of their "Nest".

Now, a heating pad in the bottom of a Cardboard Box on-it-side, with a light cloth draped OVER the 'open' side, lets the Bird be draft free, warm and secure...and easy to get to , easy to put 'back'.

When one wishes to feed them, one gently pulls out their "nest" in-the-pie-tin or cake-pan, with them in it, and making the sounds for announceing chow-time, feeds them, and puts them back. The Bird does not get chilled this way, and all is well. Olne need only move them in fact, a foot or so at most form their position IN the box.

It is easy to place a thermometer as NumberNine suggests, in their Nest or next to it to monitor how well one is getting their warmth adjusted.

Birds compelled to oblige the deep bottoms of slick or round smooth bowls are not going to benifit leg-wise from the compromise of their normal laying and early use of those legs.

A paper towell is not enough...while a rumpled small terrycloth towell can be just fine IF in a flat, shallow pan.

Fine Twigs such as the Birds themselves elect for making Nests are not "Sticks"...they are the diameter at MOST of say a cocktail straw, and often less and with finer brachiations which interlock, and, set into one another so as to be stable, humid, draining if spills or leaky poops happen in the nest, and so on.

The warmth is NOT a function of the 'nest' insulating the Babys own heat, for Pigeons, but of either the parents making the Baby(s) warm by sitting ON them, or, in our case, the warmth is supplied by a heating pad.

The Baby is not endothermic for the nest TO insulate or keep in their self-made warmth. They dno not have any self made warmth. They do not make their own warmth for some time, untill later, as they grow.

Is this more clear now?

Sorry for any ambiguity previously...


Lol...

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

This babe was born Oct 2, It is 2 weeks old and very malnourished. But I have to say is slowly plumping up! I did the nipple thing tonight,I even added a few very small seeds, he loved it I hope I didn't let him eat to much! Anyway he is sound asleep in a washcloth on my lap at the moment! I do not even know how to say how much I love this little guy or gal! I struggled for the first few days with the breeder, thank God he gave it over to me!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Would like straw work? I am new to this I guess I need smaller twigs! And I have the stretchy tape, which everytime I feed I will adjust!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...just use a rumpled wash cloth or very small terrycloth hand towell in a shallow cake-pan or pie tin...

Please consider to use a 'box on it's side' as I outlined above...

It solves all the concerns...


Leg-wise, if there is indeed a 'splayed leg', continue to ask advise here untill you are confident of a regimen. I myself have never dealt with one, but, as suggested above, the sooner it is corrected, the better.

Skip the tape around the Bird's body and wait for another method of hobble or something for the leg if it really IS an issue needing address.

...excellent that the little one is of good appetite!

Now, what do the poops seem like? are they numerous, is the food getting through nicely? Thirty or more moist small 'raisens' sized poops over 24 hours, say?

Straw is not any good for babys as far as I know. Or at least not as good as a rumpled wash cloth or small hand towell in a shallow pan.

Try and understand this - normally, in nature, their Nests, while sometimes quite casual, are 'flat' and the Baby decides just what the Nest proper IS so it knows where to poop out side of the Nest. One does not do well to frustrate their wishing TO poop over the edge of their Nest.

This is some of how their legs develop and gain strength, from their little shuffles TO poop off the side of what they construe to be the nest.

All is well when the Nest if essentially flat and textured roughly enough so they so not have troubles with getting some kind of grip. A cake pan is a perfect size for them to readily decide just what the Nest peramiter is...and shallow enough for them to shuffle over and poop off of the edge of it.

Baby Pigeons do not tend to wander nor do they need to be restrained or confined...they are disposed by Nature to stay put in whatever they construe to be their Nest...untill grown enough to feel the urges for explores and trying their Wings and so on.

A Box on it's side and so on allows one to keep a Baby warm, draft free - sinec we may not well sit on them TO keep them draft free and warm - and gives it a nice easy sense of being protected and safe and secure and the open side it knows, once able to walk well, to come scampering out of when one calls them to come and eat...they will eat, play a little and go back in on their own very nicely once old enough. Or come and go from it as they please, for which a Card Table or the likes with a large towell on it is perfect for this arrange. They then have a little 'field' to play or nap or lay around on, and, they have their sheltered Nest to retreat to as they like.

Just have this set up on a folding Card Table or something about that size...

Now, is their Crop still seeming to be gassy or inflated?

You are doing great dnrslucky1...!

Sorry I am not more clear sometimes on some details...!

Best wishes, 
 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

His crop is still a little gassy,much better than it was! I think I am understanding what u are saying about the nest now! Thank You Very Much! By the way he loves nipple feedind!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just looking at the feller, I'm not sure he's got "splay-leg." I had a pigeon once that got some kind of childhood disease that caused a neural disorder. What he did for a very long time was stick one leg out forward almost to brace himself. He started that just about the same size as this guy and didn't stop for a very long time. I had to work with him a lot to help him learn to walk. It took even longer to teach him to fly.

His brother was just fine. But whatever it was that did it (I've always thought it was actually the CNS form of paratyphoid but never knew) it actually caused one side (his bad side) to develop more slowly than the good side. Even the feathers on that side were behind.

Anyhow, this feller doesn't appear to be stretching his leg out to the side like splay-leg normally goes. From what I could tell from the pictures, the way that you've wrapped him may not be bringing the leg back into the "Z" position that's normal. I don't have an idea how I'd do it, but that's what needs to be done with that leg. Perhaps the easiest and first thing to do would be to make a little form-fitting bowl with a "stop" that he can get that leg set against so that it's in a more natural position. That may work.

Pidgey


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1,

glad to hear that you and your friend are doing fine.

I've treated many hatchlings with abnormal legs/feet. I tried various things at the beginning and quickly realized that keeping the bird in a small container as described by Terry was the most effective.

Providing the bird with a normal position went a long way towards improving the legs/feet. Putting one leg in a "sock" and attaching it to the other leg with some elastic material would help. But not as much as simply providing the bird with a good "natural" sitting position.

In fact, I've been using that same container with all hatchlings that ended up in my care. I have 3 different containers (of various sizes) that I always use in order to accomodate young birds of all ages. It works very well. No matter the situation of the feet/legs.

Keep posting pics every few days. So we can keep watching his/her amazing progress and survival.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi dnrslucky1,

Thank you for everything you have done for this youngster. I fall in love with youngsters myself, it is so easy, especially with the needy ones. The baby is very lucky to have found you.

I also agree it is priority 1 to get those legs in their natural position underneath it.

I also have several size bowls that graduate to the youngsters growing size, it is one of easiest methods of fixing splay legs, although I'm not quite sure looking at the pictures, that they look like splay legs I've ever seen.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Here are some updated pics of his legs. I'm trying a maller bowl but he is getting quite strong and still manages to do this with them!
http://community.webshots.com/user/dnrslucky1


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1,

thanks for the precious pics. This is my first time having a good and clear look at the legs. And my first reaction to seeing the right leg was that it will not come back to normal. The bones must have developed to the point of no return. Nevertheless, it might walk funny, but I think it might be able to find its balance.

Don't worry about the tiny wings, they should come back to normal. In extreme cases like yours, they are the last thing to develop. The feathers on the body will come before the wings.

I can't be sure about the beak. Not clear enough from the pics.

No matter what, you have been doing an outstanding job!  Congrats.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

So maybe the breeder was right, maybe he will never walk or fly! All I am hoping for is good quality of life! But he needs to at least be able to walk! Oh My! What did I get myself into? This is gona be to sad for me! What am I to do?


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Nop, the breeder is wrong. I believe that the odds are greater than 90% that this bird will fly. I also believe that the odds are greater than 60% that it will adapt to its legs and use them to move around.

It is way too early in the game to make a final judgement. When you first saw the bird, you doubted that it would survive. Now you are doubting that it will fly or walk.

Give it time. Trust me.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank You Numbernine! I needed that! You are so right! I guess I do that out of worry and fear! Because now I am in love with a pidgy!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I just noticed at this last feeding, his skin is feeling moist and oily, I know that to be a good sign! I soaked some Pigeon seed in warm water and boy he loved it! Now how much seed compared to formula should I be feeding? I don't have frozen peas or corn, would canned be alright? Untill I get some, suddenly he has this huge appetite! Now if I could help those legs, but maybe in a week it wil be easier to know what to do with them!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi dnrslucky1. You really are doing an excellent job with this baby. It may be that he will not be releasable, only time will tell. As to flying, I recently did a thread on our Mr. Humphries who had multiple fractures of both legs which never healed properly and he is limited in how high he can stand - he sorta squats - but he can waddle around and best of all he can fly. It may help you to read that. Right this minute he is perched on a limb in our aviary. We don't leave him out at night and probably will not for awhile but this spring we'll see how he does.

Don't give up hope. They can be very tough. We have rehabbed many "naked" babies and I must admit they are my favorites. Watching them grow and observing their sweet, cute little personalities is a joy. He should be trying to "toddle" in a few weeks so you will pretty well know how well he can get around then. When he attempts to walk, put a rug under him so he will be able to grip well. Never let one this young try to walk on a bare kitchen counter. Their legs will simply spread apart.

Good luck. maggie


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1,

you know, there is no school where we all went. Except if there are vets among us, what we know has been learned through helping birds. So each of us has a different background.

When I raise young ones, I only use Hagen's breeding mash,

http://www.hagen.com/usa/birds/product.cfm?CAT=8&SUBCAT=809&PROD_ID=08022610020101

I have never used Kaytee, but according to Phil who now has experience with both, Hagen's might be superior. IMO, Hagen's is 80%-90% of the pigeon's milk. Pigeon's milk is the most nutritious food a hatchling can get. It is unmatched among all man-made products that exist on the market.

I have never given seeds to hatchlings as young as yours. Hagen's and nothing else. 

Each of us has a personal opinion as to what's best, and that's mine.

Maybe you could order a bag of Hagen's if you do not have much Kaytee left. It is entirely up to you. I can only talk to you about what I have experienced.

About the feet, I think both will be functional. The left one might be very close to, if not entirely "normal". It is too early to tell. The right one will most likely grow the way it is now. But what really matters is that both feet should enable the bird to move around. Very akwardly for sure.

P.S. On some very rare occasions, I do use something else apart from Hagen's. Your bird is such case. I would definitely give it some extra calcium. ACV is ok too.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

So I should not let "Peepers" have any seed yet, just stick to the formula! I will need more soon so I will order the other, Hagens! He is like a starvin Marvin right now! He digests fast about 2 hours on the formula, and I did sort out the small seeds and I only give him a few, with a lot of formula! He seems more content that way! But I want to do what is best!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

I wanted to add, he has passed all the grit that was in his crop,that is why I felt it was safe to let him have some small seeds, which I sorted out by hand! And he was gobbleing them. Maybe I need to thicken his formula again, it is already like pudding!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1,

I'm glad if you can get Hagen's. It is an outstanding product. I don't know how many emaciated, dehydrated and internal organs failing pigeons I have rescued with that stuff. Even when there was blood in the dropping, I managed to rescue them.

Regarding Hagen's, let me give you some tips: 

1) Always keep the bag in the freezer.

2) Always prepare the food right before serving. Take some powder, very small quantity - few teaspoons - and mix it in a very small container. Mine is about 2" in diameter by 2" tall. I use a single chopstick to mix it, but you can use whatever you please. Add HOT tap water to the powder. Because your powder is coming from the freezer, it needs to be warm up.

3) You MUST do a PERFECT mix. NEVER, EVER leave a single patch of unmixed powder in your mix. Otherwise it might stick to the side of the throat, cause an infection and the bird will die.

4) Once finished mixing, it can easily take me 5-15 minutes of mixing, put a bit of the mixed product on your arm. If you do not feel it as warm, then you can feed it. If you feel it warm, then leave the bottle on the kitchen counter for 5-10 minutes in order to cool off.

5) The left over can be kept in the fridge up to 24 hours after mixing. 36 hrs MAX.

6) NEVER, EVER use the microwave to warm it up. I warm it up by putting the bottle with the mix in a large bowl and add hot water to the bowl. Be careful, the outside might be hot, but the inside of your feeding bottle might be cold. The best thing to do is leave it 10-15 minutes in hot water. Even change the water once or twice. Then take it out of the hot water and leave it on the kitchen counter for 10-15 minutes. Pigeons at that age are very fragile and you don't want to burn it. 

Since you've been feeding birds before, I guess you'll have no problem dealing with that. And remember, always give a bit less than a bit too much.

Once you are used to it, it's a piece of cake (no pun intended) to tell about the health of your bird just buy looking at the droppings. After all, you are only feeding it Hagen's, so get the consistency right and you know EXACTLY what is supposed to come out at the other end!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

The only seeds you could give him are seeds that have been reduced to fine powder. By adding it to Hagen's powder. IMO, not worth the trouble.

You see, a single seed wil never match the nutritional value of an equivalent quantity of Hagen's. And to digest seeds, it takes energy from the bird. Hagen's requires a lot less energy for the bird to extract the nutrients.

You have a sick bird. In an optimal situation, you wish to save the bird's energy as much as possible. It is recovering, so by giving it rich food that requires very little energy to process, you are providing the bird with the optimal parameters.

Moreover, seeds are broken down in the gizzard. Grits is needed to do that. An adult bird with no grit whatsoever will produce green dropping. The more green it is, the more the bird is deficient in grit. Over months and months, if a bird never has grits, but has plenty of seeds, it will die.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Ok I get it then no more seeds, just more frequent feedings!


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

He loved the soft peas I gave him tonight, from now on I am gonna make his baby food, but I will make sure he gets lots of formula and vites!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi dnrslucky1,


Canned Peas and the likes are of very poor nutritional value.

Order the 'Hagens' a.s.a.p. or it will get here too late for use with this Bird.

Small Seeds and fine 'Canary' Grit in his formula allow him a liesured overnight digestion instead of passing all soon as they will otherwise do.

Glad to hear he is hungry and gobbleing! He is making up now for lost time previous..!

Heed well NumberNine's mentions of thorough mixing and warming...

do not be too heavy handed on Vitamine suppliments, just a little is plenty.

More importantly are likely to be includeing Pro-Biotics and even some 'Misu' in his formula...also 'Nutrical' which you can get at any pet store, which contains important digestive enzymes.

These are especially good for Birds which did not get to obtain some of these things from being fed by their parents, or, who for whatever reason are trying to catch up nutritionally and growing wise.

Consider to stay with the ACV Water untill you are confident his Crop-gas issues are a thing of the past.

Canned or frozen veggies can suffice if nothing better is at hand, but they will not provide the protean and other nutrients that the formula and small whole Seeds will...

So, he is doing nicely with the 'Nipple'...?

...do you invite him to eat with the "oooOOOooo!" sounds?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

He does nicely on the nipple, after I give a syringe full, otherwise he would never find the nipple! He is so hungry now, that with his poor legs, all he does is go around in circles untill I hold him tight! And I have been feeding him every 3 hours! But I have to say that ACV is truely working! Very little gas tonight! Thanks Very Much! to all that have helped me! By the way I got pine needles in his little nest now!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Very good...

Make sure whatever is in his Nest does not slide around if he tries to move himself useing his legs.

The advantage of a small rumbled terrycloth towell is that it will not slide.

They get all wound-up with feeding-time..and glad to hear yours is no exception...!

When you say 'syringe' can you be more specific?

There are many varieties of 'syringe' feeding and many of them are very dangerous for the Bird either from punctures to their esophagus or overwhelming their throat with liquid where they can aspirate it and choke.

What is the end of your syringe, and how long is it?

Not trying to worry you, but we get many stories of woe from rigid-end plastic syringes and all kinds of problems of internal injury from them.

If 'just' going into the throat, past their throat opening, a slow deposit that they can swallow and keep up with is likely safe enough...

If a longer tipped riged plastic sytringe, it can easily tear or puncture or abrade successively on the same spot and hurt them.

Please do read the info I sent you as it tells you how to guide their Beak into a Nipple, where otherwise, for their beginning times with it, they will not find it on their own very well...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

This syringe only has like a 1/8th inch long narrow tip and I feed him slowly at the side of his beak as he licks and swallows. I will go back and read nipple feeding again, as it seems he likes it better with a few seeds now! Maybe I need to make the formula thicker, but it is pudding like now. And I still want him to be getting that ACV, which is what I make the formula with.
Thanks again!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi dnrslucky1. I debated about posting this but I am really getting worried about all the vinegar you are giving this baby. I honestly don't know that much about ACV. We have only recently started giving ours the ACV in water but that is one time a week at a ratio of 1 tsp per gal of water.

I just can't fathom mixing formula with ACV everytime you feed this baby and how toxic it could be given in these quantities. I use a lot of water usually when I mix the Kaytee and feed sometimes five times a day, in about 10-15 cc increments at a time. Always keep a close eye on the crop. My mixture is usually less consistency than pudding because that is too thick for a small baby, and a little more water helps prevent the crop slowdown.

As I mentioned earlier, I have raised (successfully) many naked babies. All they need is warmth, food and love.

maggie


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1,

I have to admit that I agree with Maggie (Lady Tarheel) in regards to withholding the ACV.

Others have encouraged you to go full strength ahead with the ACV like if the bird you are caring for is an adult. It is not.

I honestly got worried about all that ACV you are giving it, but I figured there was nothing I could say or do to make you stop, given how others have encouraged you.

ACV is VERY powerful stuff. You have no idea. I've been taking it for more than 10 years. And if the digestive system of the birds would be similar to humans, I would have no problem you give it like the way you do. But it is NOT the case, pigeons have a crop and that makes all the difference.

The damage caused by the ACV will accumulate over time. With such a young bird, by the time any symptoms show up, due to damages by over exposure to ACV, it will be too late for the bird.

My personal opinion is that you should NOT give this bird anymore ACV. Unless the crop gets worse or the bird is in adulthood.

Also, a young bird doesn't know what is best for it's health. You feed peas, it will eat peas. It is your responsability NOT to let this bird eat whatever it wants. Between you and the bird, only you know what is best in order to bring this poor fellow back to full health.

So, feed it Hagen's and MAYBE occasionally, some extra calcium. Even with the calcium you have to be very careful. Over time, you could damage some internal orgeans by giving it too much calcium.

At this age, with a such a small creature and in this particular situation, any slight variation in its feeding pattern has a tremendous impact on its health.

So please, feed it Hagen's and forget the rest.

My 2 cents.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Oh boy! I thought I was doing the right thing! I will stop all but the formula made with plain bottled water right away. I hope I haven't given him to much already! Thanks! I appreciate all oppinions as this is my first time with a pigeon, a tiny sickly one to yet!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Why don't you call Hagen's USA. They must have a 1-800 number. Ask them who is an authorized reseller of their products in you area.

Do you still have Kaytee?

Have you already ordered Hagen's? How fast can you get it? Maybe there are pet shops close to you selling Hagen's? This bird needed HAgen's yesterday, so the sooner you can have it, the better it is. 

Like I said before, I've never used Kaytee, so I cannot evaluate how great it is. But I suspect that it is good enough to keep your friend relatively healthy. Though it might not recover as quickly as with Hagen's. 

Don't worry so much regarding the ACV. I have observed that the negative impact (in humans) created by ACV will recede once no more ACV is consumed. The point is not going too far with ACV. And when in doubt, you simply stop giving it to the bird.

Your bird has been steadily improving under your care. I'm expecting that it should continue if you simply feed it Kaytee/Hagen (though Hagen is best).


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

dnrslucky1, call one of those to see if they have it in stock.

Pet Supplies "Plus"
12579 Felch Rd
Holland
49424
Phone : 616-738-0090
Fax : 616-738-0188
Web site: petsuppliesplus.com

Discount Pet Center
5660 Gull Rd.
Kalamazoo
49004
Phone : 269-343-7387

Chow Hound Pet
6787 Cascade Rd. S.E.
Grand Rapids
49546
Phone : 616-285-9111
Fax : 616-285-0350


Curious World Pets
609 28th S. E.
Grand Rapids
19508
Phone : 616-452-6059


Curious World/The Pet Shop
2909 Breton S.E.
Grand Rapids
49508
Phone : 616-247-1994


V.I. Pets
6701 S. Division
Grand Rapids
49548
Phone : 616-281-3900


V.I. Pets
4191 Plainfield Avenue
Grand Rapids
49525
Phone : 616-301-1483


Pet Supplies "Plus"
3593 Alpine Ave, Northwestern
Grand Rapids
49504
Phone : 616-785-1070
Fax : 616-785-0214
Web site: petsuppliesplus.com


Pet Supplies "Plus"
6159 Kalamazoo Ave SE
Grand Rapids
49508
Phone : 616-554-3600
Fax : 616-554-3004
Web site: petsuppliesplus.com


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie,

NumberNine, 

Whomever else, 


Maybe there has been some confucion and or discontinuity here with this sideligh of the topic.


He had described a typical Candida scenario of a gas-inflated Crop and dubious digestive progresses and the Bird not passing food which at his size-age he should have been passing.

I related of how in my experience, the raw ACV to the tune of one Tablespoon to a Gallon of Water has served very will to cure this. This ACV Water to be used for about five or six days then discontinued and the Crop watched closely to see if all is indeed well.

If he had not done this the Bird would likely be dead by now and we could all boo-hoo about that and so on.

Which would you prefer then?

Leave a Candida condition untreated, even though it is progressing to cease all digestive processes and to close of the emptying of the Crop while the Crop fills with gas?

Or, to see if it can be cured so the Bird lives?

I also mentioned the use of 'Nystatin' in whatever it's proper amounts might be for addressing Candida, and or advised to go to a qualified Vet and get a swab done to say for sure if the Baby DOES have Candida.

Now, what exactly would you have him do to address the (probable ) Candida? - what would you have him do for a Crop that is not emptying, and the Bird not passing previous - and appearently fermenting - food?

Keep stuffing formula in there untill it flows out his mouth? No matter the Crop is not emptying?

Or what?

...did you miss those parts of the discussion? Or...?

Anyway, yes, one would use the ACV Water to mix formula with, one does NOT add mere "Straight" ACV to the Bird's Crop nor to it's formula, BUT, one adds it TO A GALLOLN OF WATER...AND USES THE THUS-MADE "WATER" FOR FORMULA MIXING.

One uses the thus prepared Water then, with which to mix their formula, especially for a very young Bird who otherwise is not drinking seperately...as well as to offer the ACV Water for them to drink if they wish TO drink in addition to being fed.

Make sense?

Are we on the right page now?

Can we understand this?

Does this remind or provide of the context here for the use of the ACV?

How can it be that such simple things can get so screwed up????

Yeeeeeeesh...!

 

Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

The ACV I am sure saved his life, and the Kaytee baby formula! Hagen's is not available in my area! I would take 7 to 10 days to have it shipped, I am hoping it won't be that important by then and can continue with the Kaytee exact! My main concern now is the legs, maybe I should start a new thread as this one is getting long!


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> ...did you miss those parts of the discussion? Or...?


Phil,

this thread is now 112 posts long, so maybe, yes, some information got lost somewhere.

I have never denied using ACV, but I think it should have been used for a shorter period of time. As soon as there was some progress with the crop, less ACV or no ACV should have been used right away. 


dnrslucky1,

it is unfortunate that you cannot get Hagen's. Good luck with the bird and keep up the good work.

Please post some pics every few days. Thanks.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, no need to get so huffy. I stand by what I said that I would never give a baby this age vinegar in the quantities it takes to mix formula, for every feeding. I didn't even know you were the one who mentioned the vinegar in the first place so none of this was directed at you personally. Like NumberNine said, there have been numerous posts on this one little baby and its no wonder that dnrslucky1 isn't totally confused. I would never have posted what I did about the vinegar had I not been concerned. If I am wrong I will apologize.

If I remember correctly, you started using ACV fairly recently yourself. We have just started also. That doesn't make either of us an authority on the subject but I do have enough common sense to know you don't use that amount of vinegar to mix the formula every time you feed the baby. ACV is not the only way to help with slow crop. 

Each of us has a responsibility when we post something on this forum that it is as accurate as we can possibly make it. None of us are perfect but we should use caution and not take something and simply "run" with it for the sake of giving out advice. You can't take one piece of information you have learned about and believe it applies in all situations. And yes, I do understand that you meant the ACV is added to the water and then used to make the formula.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Continue with the Kaytee for now and you can still order the Hagen's and start it whenever it arrives. 
If you add one drop to of ACV in his formula once a day it will not harm him. As soon as he starts doing much better then discontinue at least for a while.
I agree, the leg issue has to be addressed now, otherwise there is chance he will be diabled.


Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...



...sorry I seemed a little 'huffy'...

If poops are comeing through fine...and if no gas seems to be anymore inflating their Crop...

Then I would think the ACV Water could be discontinued if it has in fact done it's job intended for it.

Usually, this seems to take five days or so, and in my so-far experience, I tended to continue a couple days more for good measure..!

 


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

dnrslucky1 said:


> The ACV I am sure saved his life, and the Kaytee baby formula! Hagen's is not available in my area! I would take 7 to 10 days to have it shipped, I am hoping it won't be that important by then and can continue with the Kaytee exact! *My main concern now is the legs, maybe I should start a new thread as this one is getting long*!


Yes, I would suggest starting a new thread regarding this little one's legs. 

With regard to advice, suggestions, general comments, etc. 
We are all working togther to help our fine feathered friends *&* their caregivers. At times we may miss a post or two, misinterpret a post, etc., etc.
Some of us may be more knowledgable regarding specific issues than others, but the bottom line is, we are all equal in that we are working over the Internet, which is a challenge in it's self at times. 

We all get the 'grumpies' from time to time. Let's do our best not to pass them along to our fellow members.  

Cindy


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

ACV is very powerful stuff. Try it and see for yourself.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi NumberNine,


Makes sense...

This use of the raw ACV in this thread, was specifically to cease the (probable) Candida, and was not for general non-specific health benifits of the young Bird.

So far, in my experience, it has worked well to stop the progress of, and to eliminate Candida, but too little or too much AVC are of course to be avoided.

Whether it is better then, equal to, or not quite as good as 'Nystatin' for this or kindred illnesses, I do not know...but from what I have found for testimonies and reading and talking to some Vets and Bird people, it seems to be regarded very highly for cureing Candida in Pigeons.

Nystatin is hardly an easy medication for most people to obtain, let alone to obtain it in a timely manner for urgent situations, for the Bird to begin getting rid of Candida.

Hence, I think it is a good regimen which is practical for anyone to use, and if they prefer to obtain the Nystatin, they may still do so of course, but at least, if necessary, they can begin immediately with the AVC and make some progress while the Nystatin is being sought.

Raw Apple Cider Vinegar can be bought at any Health Food Store, and at many Grocery Stores.

I know that many people use the ACV for general health benifits for their Birds, but this context was stictly for addressing what was described to co-respond to a classic Candida presentation, and of course, this would have been very dangerous for the little Bird if not treated promptly.

I will guess, that even a little overdose for a short period, in cases like this, are far preferable to not having treated it at all...if any OD had happenned.

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/acvinegar.html


"For the past year and a half I have routinely added apple cider vinegar, to my baby birds' hand-feeding formula, to all drinking water and sprinkled some on the food of the animals here at our aviary and small dairy farm. These animals include several species of breeding exotic parrots, chickens, ducks, dogs, cats and LaMancha dairy goats. The vinegar keeps the water bowls and bottles very clean and sanitary and the animals seem to love it--- of course, the nutritional and health benefits are a plus. *Apple cider vinegar added to young birds drinking water encourages early weaning and healthy weight gain and they will feather out faster. Adding a little raw apple cider vinegar to the hand-feeding formula water can prove nutritionally beneficial and help to inhibit the growth of yeast, fungus and bacteria. In formula a ratio of about ¼ tsp per 4 oz water is best."*



I found this link, I started taking the stuff myself and I noticed they had info for animals.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great link. Thanks for posting it.
I start liking the ACV a lot.
I use it twice a week for my birds and I also put it in their bath, just in case someone wants to drink it.

Reti


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