# Undetermined Colors



## MaryOfExeter

I started a project for the Genetics forum in hopes that it would provide a quick and easy reference to all the colors we can get pictures for. I made a photobucket gallery simply because it seemed the best place to host the pictures, where I could organize them into categories based on color or pattern. Here's the original thread talking about the gallery if you are lost - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/i-just-had-a-brilliant-idea-guys-27655.html (even though I'm pretty much re-explaining it here, trying to make it less confusing)
I was asked when we upload the pictures, just where do we put the 'undetermined colors'. I suggested in the main gallery (first place you end up after logging in to the account). Then you could take the link it provided and bring it back here to show and discuss the picture. Attaching images may take a while to be confirmed and you're only allowed so many before it starts erasing your previous attachments....so it seemed better in my mind to host the pictures in a place where they'll stay until you move them. It was then suggested by another member, that we have a thread for these 'undetermined colors' so we can discuss them. That's why this is here.
I'm not saying you have to upload your pictures to the gallery at any point, or even come to this particular thread to discuss your colors. I just ask would it be okay if you would consider adding them to the gallery once you decide on a color/pattern for the bird? I would be more than happy to do all the uploading and whatnot for you if you aren't so great with computers. Just tell me and I'll do it.
If you would like to add any pictures you have to the gallery yourself, here is the login info:


Link to the album - http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/

Login Info:
Username - PigeonGenetics
Password - pigeontalk
*Make sure you put the password in all lowercase, by the way.

If you have any questions or have any problems concerning photobucket or uploading, feel free to ask. I use photobucket all the time so I'm pretty familiar with it


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## bluecheck

The first one show is an ash-red check pied and it may be carrying sooty as well.

The second is also ash-red, hard to tell pattern from the picture and it may also be spread, and it also has the "gris" or "silver" neck , which may be a unit factor.


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## MaryOfExeter

For those who may be lost, these are the birds he's referring to:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/DSCN2357.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/05-951.jpg


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## TheSnipes

i moved mine and now i have added another TBD. 

several pics of the same bird. 1 or 2 I'll move to the appropriate album later.


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## jbangelfish

*two new birds in photobucket*

The one is yellow grizzle but is ash yellow. The other looks to be ash red but is very dark, could have another factor such as dirty or sooty or possibly just t pattern, making it darker. The black flecks in the tail should mean that the bird is carrying blue and that it is a cock bird.

Bill


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## TheSnipes

It is very telling to include pics of the parents, and I have been pondering how to do that in a meaningful way in this gallery. The only thing I can think of so far is to use a paint program to combine pics of parents and offspring into one single image, but I wonder if photobucket has a limit on image size? If so it might be a lot harder to see them well. 

Anyway, the dark ash red you are referring to came out of a blue check cock and a white hen. (The hen has some splotches of a rusty color on her back.) If this bird is red then it got red from mamma, and I was assuming it is a male since the hens from these parents would get their color from dad and wouldn't be red. That's why I named him Orphan Arnie . He should be carrying blue or I suppose the other possibility could be brown from dad.


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## TheSnipes

jbangelfish said:


> The one is yellow grizzle but is ash yellow.
> 
> Bill


 would that be ash red with dilute?


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## MaryOfExeter

TheSnipes said:


> It is very telling to include pics of the parents, and I have been pondering how to do that in a meaningful way in this gallery. *The only thing I can think of so far is to use a paint program to combine pics of parents and offspring into one single image, but I wonder if photobucket has a limit on image size? If so it might be a lot harder to see them well. *
> 
> Anyway, the dark ash red you are referring to came out of a blue check cock and a white hen. (The hen has some splotches of a rusty color on her back.) If this bird is red then it got red from mamma, and I was assuming it is a male since the hens from these parents would get their color from dad and wouldn't be red. That's why I named him Orphan Arnie . He should be carrying blue or I suppose the other possibility could be brown from dad.


The biggest you can upload pictures is a 17" size screen I think. That's pretty big. If you can scale and crop the original pictures down to a smaller but still easy to view size before fitting them together on Paint, that would help with the size issue. Paint is a good idea, or maybe we could upload the parents/family as well, and put the links to each in the caption of the bird in question? It would be easier than pasting pictures together at least.


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## MaryOfExeter

jbangelfish said:


> The one is yellow grizzle but is ash yellow. The other looks to be ash red but is very dark, could have another factor such as dirty or sooty or possibly just t pattern, making it darker. The black flecks in the tail should mean that the bird is carrying blue and that it is a cock bird.
> 
> Bill


So does that mean the flecks can tell you if the bird is male or female?


Also...now I'm confused with the yellow. I thought yellow and ash yellow were the same thing?


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## bluecheck

Now, you're bumping into the difference between fancier and genetics terminology. Yellow (fancier terminology) is actually two things genetically. In racers, e.g., yellow or self yellow usually is a recessive red dilute. Cream or cream check or cream bar or yellow bar is an ash-red dilute.

So is yellow the same as ash-red = ash-red dilute? (Yup)
And is yellow the same as recessive red dilute? (Yup)

And it gets a bit more confusing when you realize that some "yellows" even in fancier language are actually in other breeds more correctly called "gold" and these "golds" are recessive red pales (so they're a bit more deep and darker than recessive red dilutes but definitely not recessive reds)

Oh, did I mention that the "gold" in gimpels (archangels) which actually looks more "gold" than the "gold" (recessive red pales) is actually pale gimpel bronze and quite often heterozygous for recessive red. 

Ok - is anyone's head other than mine starting to spin???? Now, you know why when I began to ask Hollander all the questions that I did (very similar to lots of the questions on this site to me and others) -- now you know, why I began to think of everything in its genetics terminology. Also, I found if I began to think of individual pieces of the pie, I could put the pie back together in my mind and it began to make sense.


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## MaryOfExeter

Oh okay, that's a relief. I normally call yellow bars/checks/grizzles and recessive yellows what they are when it comes to homers, but every once in a while I'll end up calling my little yellow bar roller, cream. As long as I have the color right


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## TheSnipes

OK I didn't know yellow and cream were referring to the same thing


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## bluecheck

Becky -- just want to mention that I REALLY like that 223 blue cock of yours. Nice looking bird!


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## Margarret

Is photobucket the only album we are using? I'm really having trouble accessing the photos and get lost between going back and forth. Am quite computer challenged here I have a much easier time when the photos are posted with the thread/text. Maybe it is just a learning curve. Also can't figure out how to log out on photobucket.

Margaret


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## jbangelfish

*Sex linked mating*



TheSnipes said:


> It is very telling to include pics of the parents, and I have been pondering how to do that in a meaningful way in this gallery. The only thing I can think of so far is to use a paint program to combine pics of parents and offspring into one single image, but I wonder if photobucket has a limit on image size? If so it might be a lot harder to see them well.
> 
> Anyway, the dark ash red you are referring to came out of a blue check cock and a white hen. (The hen has some splotches of a rusty color on her back.) If this bird is red then it got red from mamma, and I was assuming it is a male since the hens from these parents would get their color from dad and wouldn't be red. That's why I named him Orphan Arnie . He should be carrying blue or I suppose the other possibility could be brown from dad.


What happens when a blue cock is mated to an ash red hen is you get a reversal of the colors or blue hens and ash red cocks that will carry blue and they will show flecks of black. These are almost always cock birds but there are exceptions to the rule. Yes, you can usually sex them this way.

Most white pigeons are really ash reds that are homozygous grizzle but not always. The brown color (ash red) in the back tells you the color of mom. When you are talking about white on birds, you have to more or less forget about it as their base color is whatever colored feathers they show or in the case of a pure white, you have to think of it as an ash red bird in most cases. There are exceptions to this of course as there are other things that can make a pigeon white such as recessive white but it is far less common.
This hen may not be grizzle but an extremely light version of pied or migratory white. Sort of like a mismark saddled bird that is nearly all white.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*They're not exactly*



TheSnipes said:


> OK I didn't know yellow and cream were referring to the same thing


They are both dilute, creme is the dilute of ash red bar, yellow (recessive yellow) is the dilute of recessive red.

Confusing stuff but you get used to it.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

bluecheck said:


> Becky -- just want to mention that I REALLY like that 223 blue cock of yours. Nice looking bird!


Thank you!


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## MaryOfExeter

jbangelfish said:


> They are both dilute, creme is the dilute of ash red bar, yellow (recessive yellow) is the dilute of recessive red.
> 
> Confusing stuff but you get used to it.
> 
> Bill


So in genetic terms, cream bar is correct while yellow bar isn't?


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## george simon

*I just don't understand why we don't just post the picture on the thread this way we all see the bird in question, I get lost bouncing back and forth. Also others can see what we are talking about . Once we have determined the color or genetic factors then post to the gallery. I dare say that most that are just looking at the threads don't know what we are talking about.This defeats the reason for having a genetics forum,we want people to come to the forum ask questions and get answers.* .GEORGE


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## TheSnipes

george simon said:


> *I just don't understand why we don't just post the picture on the thread this way we all see the bird in question, I get lost bouncing back and forth. Also others can see what we are talking about . Once we have determined the color or genetic factors then post to the gallery. I dare say that most that are just looking at the threads don't know what we are talking about.This defeats the reason for having a genetics forum,we want people to come to the forum ask questions and get answers.* .GEORGE


For me it is a matter of ease of use. the pics are being posted to the gallery, and then once a determination is made, it's simple to _move_ then with two mouse clicks to the appropriate sub-album. A URL link can be put into a PT message, as several have done, to include a pic in a post if so desired. I do not see the idea or reason for the genetics forum as being defeated by the use of the genetics gallery. And if you want to put a link to a pic in a PT post, go ahead. For me it is more steps to upload the picture to a different location and then link it, then put another copy of the pic in the genetics gallery when it is identified. That's what makes sense and is easiest and quickest for me.


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## george simon

*Left Out In The Cold*

*It is easy for those of you all that undrestand all this computer workings.But I find it very very differcult and I am sure that there are others, that have problems, but are afraid to say any thing. so the genetic forum is only for those that have a good working knowlegdge.Those of us that do not have this computer savvy are left out in the cold........ "pigeon GENETIC FORUM FOR THOSE THAT UNDERSTAND THE COMPUTER" should be the title. * GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter

Ayeeeee I'm sorry for all this confusion! That's certainly not what I had in mind when I started this.  


See my idea was, post the pictures here, discuss the color, then once determined, add it to the gallery under the right category. I'd be willing to move all the pictures from here to the gallery and organize them for those who aren't as good with computers.
It was my idea that uploading the pigeons you don't know the color to, to the gallery anyway, would give you a link so you could easily put it on Pigeon-Talk. It gives you a direct url, which is a clickable link that takes you to the picture AND it gives you an image url, which will insert the picture into your post here for all to see. With that you don't have to attach photos and wait for them to show up.
Snipes asked where we should put the 'undetermined colors' in the gallery, so I suggested putting it in the main gallery without clicking any specific folder to put it under. Then she suggested we should make a thread just for these undetermined colors. That's why this is here.
I didn't mean to take away from the forum in any way, I was just trying to help. Isn't working out as smoothly as I had hoped though.
Never said you had to put the pictures in the gallery first or at all, or even post your pictures in this particular thread. I just asked that if/when we decide the color of a pigeon, can we put it in the gallery so we can have all these different colors and patterns in one place, to make a quick and easy reference?

I'm gonna go try to fix the first post to make it where maybe people won't see it and run.


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## bluecheck

MaryOfExeter said:


> So in genetic terms, cream bar is correct while yellow bar isn't?


Not quite. In genetic terms, it's ash-red dilute (_you can add bar if you like, but it's usually understood. You normally only mention the difference from wild-type in genetics terminology. Since "bar" is the wild-type, we don't mention it - though I often do to help people understand it a bit better when we're talking if they don't have a biological training background. So, let's say you have an ash-red, T-Pattern checker, dilute (in genetic terms) == as a racing fancier, I'd simply call that a dark check cream or a dark check yellow. I used to be VERY adamant that we should use genetic terminology even in shows, but then as I got older, and maybe less certain and lots more understanding about just how little I do know - I realized that what it looks like and what it actually is aren't the same thing in a show, which is basically just a beauty contest anyway. Also, you bump continually into new things that you might not yet know the genetics of. In fact, just this morning, a pen pal from Australia sent me pics of a Syrian breed that has a crest (if you can call it that) that looks just like a Mohawk hairstyle. I'm trying to find out some more about that right now -- I also want to know if it's genetic or something that someone scissors onto their birds --- a few months back I got some great shots of birds from India that had WHITE bars. They are at my website. I was able to get hold of the breeder and found out that the bars are "created" by plucking so that means it's very different than anything like Toy Stencil, etc., and has to do with being able to deplete the pigment reservoirs - similar or identical to the Tiger Swallow pattern creation.

_

In fancier terms, it's either cream bar or yellow bar depending on the breed and the breeder.


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## TheSnipes

MaryOfExeter said:


> Ayeeeee I'm sorry for all this confusion! That's certainly not what I had in mind when I started this.
> 
> 
> See my idea was, post the pictures here, discuss the color, then once determined, add it to the gallery under the right category. I'd be willing to move all the pictures from here to the gallery and organize them for those who aren't as good with computers.
> It was my idea that uploading the pigeons you don't know the color to, to the gallery anyway, would give you a link so you could easily put it on Pigeon-Talk. It gives you a direct url, which is a clickable link that takes you to the picture AND it gives you an image url, which will insert the picture into your post here for all to see. With that you don't have to attach photos and wait for them to show up.
> Snipes asked where we should put the 'undetermined colors' in the gallery, so I suggested putting it in the main gallery without clicking any specific folder to put it under. Then she suggested we should make a thread just for these undetermined colors. That's why this is here.
> I didn't mean to take away from the forum in any way, I was just trying to help. Isn't working out as smoothly as I had hoped though.
> Never said you had to put the pictures in the gallery first or at all, or even post your pictures in this particular thread. I just asked that if/when we decide the color of a pigeon, can we put it in the gallery so we can have all these different colors and patterns in one place, to make a quick and easy reference?
> 
> I'm gonna go try to fix the first post to make it where maybe people won't see it and run.


I wouldn't worry about it Becky. I think it is working out fine. There are lots of pictures there and the collection is growing daily. It's fine resource and should be widely appreciated, I'm sure it is and will be.

Posting the pics to the gallery is a good and easy way since Photobucket does provide you with the code for the links.


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## MaryOfExeter

Frank,
Ohhh okay I got it now. I think it would be much easier if everyone could decide on one name for one thing. 

Also, thank you Snipes


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## TAWhatley

*Photos In The Gallery .*

There are still lots of problems with the Gallery. I (who am a Moderator and an Administrator here) cannot find some of them .. they just don't show up. George has a valid point, so let's please try to put these photos both in the Gallery here as well in PhotoBucket or WebShots or somewhere that is almost guaranteed to work .. sorry ..  If we ever get the Gallery working for everyone, then I will volunteer to assist in moving all the photos into the Gallery.

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter

My first thought was of the new Galleries here on Pigeon-Talk, but I knew it wasn't quite fixed yet. I'd be more than happy to move everything to here once you guys say it's working properly. I just thought Photobucket would work until then


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## TAWhatley

It's fine to put the photos just on PhotoBucket for now. If we ever get all the kinks out of the Gallery here, we can worry about moving or copying the photos then.

Terry


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## jbangelfish

*This is what I thought too*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Ayeeeee I'm sorry for all this confusion! That's certainly not what I had in mind when I started this.
> 
> 
> See my idea was, post the pictures here, discuss the color, then once determined, add it to the gallery under the right category. I'd be willing to move all the pictures from here to the gallery and organize them for those who aren't as good with computers.
> It was my idea that uploading the pigeons you don't know the color to, to the gallery anyway, would give you a link so you could easily put it on Pigeon-Talk. It gives you a direct url, which is a clickable link that takes you to the picture AND it gives you an image url, which will insert the picture into your post here for all to see. With that you don't have to attach photos and wait for them to show up.
> Snipes asked where we should put the 'undetermined colors' in the gallery, so I suggested putting it in the main gallery without clicking any specific folder to put it under. Then she suggested we should make a thread just for these undetermined colors. That's why this is here.
> I didn't mean to take away from the forum in any way, I was just trying to help. Isn't working out as smoothly as I had hoped though.
> Never said you had to put the pictures in the gallery first or at all, or even post your pictures in this particular thread. I just asked that if/when we decide the color of a pigeon, can we put it in the gallery so we can have all these different colors and patterns in one place, to make a quick and easy reference?
> 
> I'm gonna go try to fix the first post to make it where maybe people won't see it and run.


I thought they'd be posted here until a decision was made as to what they were and then move them to the gallery. It's easier for me to see them here and I agree with George in that respect. Us old geezers didn't grow up with computers in our hands and are lucky that we're able to navigate through one site at a time.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*Frank, I saw those white bars*



bluecheck said:


> Not quite. In genetic terms, it's ash-red dilute (_you can add bar if you like, but it's usually understood. You normally only mention the difference from wild-type in genetics terminology. Since "bar" is the wild-type, we don't mention it - though I often do to help people understand it a bit better when we're talking if they don't have a biological training background. So, let's say you have an ash-red, T-Pattern checker, dilute (in genetic terms) == as a racing fancier, I'd simply call that a dark check cream or a dark check yellow. I used to be VERY adamant that we should use genetic terminology even in shows, but then as I got older, and maybe less certain and lots more understanding about just how little I do know - I realized that what it looks like and what it actually is aren't the same thing in a show, which is basically just a beauty contest anyway. Also, you bump continually into new things that you might not yet know the genetics of. In fact, just this morning, a pen pal from Australia sent me pics of a Syrian breed that has a crest (if you can call it that) that looks just like a Mohawk hairstyle. I'm trying to find out some more about that right now -- I also want to know if it's genetic or something that someone scissors onto their birds --- a few months back I got some great shots of birds from India that had WHITE bars. They are at my website. I was able to get hold of the breeder and found out that the bars are "created" by plucking so that means it's very different than anything like Toy Stencil, etc., and has to do with being able to deplete the pigment reservoirs - similar or identical to the Tiger Swallow pattern creation.
> 
> _
> 
> In fancier terms, it's either cream bar or yellow bar depending on the breed and the breeder.


I haven't been able to find the pictures since crashing my old computer and starting over with a new one but they were indeed some very interesting looking birds. Too bad it isn't genetic and they have to pull feathers to make them.

As to all the terminology and references here, I guess I probably use a mixture of show terms, genetic terms and what I think are widely accepted and understood by everyone. Obviously, this doesn't always work. 

Bill


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## TheSnipes

Here is a bird with lovely brown in many of his feathers, which he gets from mom. (I don't have a good pic of her, though. She has more dark feathers and the brown shades in her is harder to see..)

His color is very symmetrical (?) and quite pretty. He looks a bit tattered in these pics due to his having injured his leg and being confined in a small carrier and getting handled rather clumsily by me.


























(images pasted for the less technically adept!)


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## jbangelfish

*Very pretty*

Might be called tort. It has bronze, t pattern blue and maybe under grizzle which I don't fully understand. Cool looking bird. It may well change quite a bit after it's first moult.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

Oh that's a very pretty bird  I wouldn't mind having a few marked up like him


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## TAWhatley

That's a beautiful youngster, Snipes! Please keep those photos coming!

Terry


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## bluecheck

This may be flash grizzle as opposed to undergrizzle and no, I don't remember the difference so don't take my word for it. i wish some of the other genetics guys were around here as well, some of them have a lot more experience with this than I do.


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## TheSnipes

"Under grizzle" and "flash grizzle" are both new terms to me! I wondered about bronze, is that evidenced by the "edging" you can see on some of his head and neck feathers? If so I am slightly proud of myself for having perhaps ID'd that bit. I have heard of tortoise too, on here, but I would never have guessed that. He is the only bird I have with this look to him & he does stand out in the crowd. Sounds like he's sort of hard to categorize!

His color is changing, his wings have gotten more dark (grey) on them as he's gotten a bit older which is more like his mom. I know who his mom is, but she's in a hen-pair so I only have strong suspicions as to the father!


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## jbangelfish

*New to me too*

I am just beginning to learn about these other types of grizzle. I always thought that there was only one grizzle and it could be expressed in a variety of ways but now I have some new terms to come to grips with.

This bird also looks similar to birds with a single dose of the pencil gene, which is also new to me, at least as a genetic factor. I used to raise Saxon Breasts which have the pencil gene, I just didn't know it when I raised them.
If you take a bird which has a double dose of the pencil gene (homozygous) and breed it to a bird without pencil, you get birds with a single dose (heterozygous) for pencil and they look similar to your bird. They often have bronzing and the white on the inner portion of the tail feathers which resembles a type of grizzle.

Pencil is considered to be an autosomal recessive gene, which means that male or female can carry it and without both parents carrying it, you will not see the gene. I disagree with the thinking on this one and think that it should be considered a dominant gene. In the heterozygous bird, you still see much evidence of the gene but they are not called visual pencils except in the homozygous state.

In my mind, this works exactly like grizzle which is considered to be a dominant factor or gene. Heterozygous grizzles are the dark colored birds and homozygous grizzles are stork marked. Still, both are considered grizzle, as they are a change from the wild state. The same is true of pencil.

Recessive red is a true autosomal recessive. Breed one to black or blue and you produce birds with no evidence of the presence of recessive red. This is what makes it recessive, it is truly hidden, as would be dilute, milky, reduced or any other recessive gene. Maybe Frank will jump in here to bring me back to earth.

As for your bird, what does mom look like? What does the suspected father look like? Do you have birds with bronze or do you have a white bird with a colored head and neck?

Bill


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## TheSnipes

jbangelfish said:


> As for your bird, what does mom look like? What does the suspected father look like? Do you have birds with bronze or do you have a white bird with a colored head and neck?
> 
> Bill


The mom is grey, but she's a splash as she has 1 white flight. I will see if i have a pic of her but if I do I know it is not a good one. Here she is...








I guess if you look closely you see some brown hiding in her wing feathers. She's the one on the right.

The father is black, here he is...









I am not quite certain what bronze looks like, but this bird and one of his siblings have that edging on the dark feathers that makes me think that. Here are 2 more pics of this bird (Harley) when he was a squeaker. You can see his wing feathers are darker now, he had more light edging on them then, and more brownish color on his chest.















. Mom on the right in this one but nothing interesting shows.


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## jbangelfish

*Bronze is the brown*

There are many different forms of bronze, at least 8 and I think there should be more. It normally shows itself as a brown color over blue or black and mixes with red to make it deeper red.

Mom shows some bronze, which one, who knows? Maybe kite. Kite usually shows itself in the flight feathers when you look at a spread wing. The youngster shows more than mom which can mean either dad has bronze too or baby will possibly fade down to look more like mom in the end. Bronze is a funny one and some birds will show much of it before the first moult and none or very little after moulting into adult feather. Just which bronze is more likely to fade away like this, I have no idea or if one type is more likely to do so than another.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*I don't think dad is the black one*



TheSnipes said:


> The mom is grey, but she's a splash as she has 1 white flight. I will see if i have a pic of her but if I do I know it is not a good one. Here she is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess if you look closely you see some brown hiding in her wing feathers. She's the one on the right.
> 
> The father is black, here he is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not quite certain what bronze looks like, but this bird and one of his siblings have that edging on the dark feathers that makes me think that. Here are 2 more pics of this bird (Harley) when he was a squeaker. You can see his wing feathers are darker now, he had more light edging on them then, and more brownish color on his chest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Mom on the right in this one but nothing interesting shows.


Grizzle is coming from somewhere. Are you positive that the white bird is a hen?

Bill


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## TheSnipes

jbangelfish said:


> Grizzle is coming from somewhere. Are you positive that the white bird is a hen?
> 
> Bill


Absolutely!

She and her friend have been together for quite some time. They lay piles of eggs, mostly neutral. The grizzle, I think, (are you talking about the mostly white one?) is coming from the white hen who also contributed to the babies you see in the pics. The white one's hers...so I believe. Tina (dark hen) made the black baby and Harley. The 4th baby was also mostly white but perished in the intense care of another female couple.


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## jbangelfish

*I think they both belong to the white hen*

They look similar enough to be nestmates. One appears to be homozygous grizzle (the whiter one) and the other perhaps another form of grizzle. The bronze shows in both of them. Mom may have bronze in her background.

I have some similar from a grizzled pair that I will post pics of sometime. When the grizzle gene is stacked up to double (homozygous) they appear much more white and are referred to as stork marked. The heterozygous grizzles are quite variiable in appearance (storks can be too) and will show much more color and less white.

Mom is very likely a homozygous ash red grizzle, which is the most common form of white pigeons. The color has simply been bred out of them but they are still genetically ash red grizzles and will produce the young to prove it when they are mated to colored pigeons.

The bronze is simply a modifier and can be present with any color. If the bird happens to be all white, you will not see what it has hidden in what could be a multitude of colors and modifiers.

Bill


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## TheSnipes

They could be the white bird's offspring, but in addition to the white grizzle there was another white baby that perished. I think the dark two are Tina's (the dark check or ?? hen).


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## jbangelfish

*I'm pretty sure the two are nestmates*



TheSnipes said:


> They could be the white bird's offspring, but in addition to the white grizzle there was another white baby that perished. I think the dark two are Tina's (the dark check or ?? hen).


The dark one is t pattern blue and like your hen that you call dark check. This is just t pattern blue but she also shows some bronze or so it appears (mom).

A white feather here or there on a colored bird can come from many sources and I tend to lump them all together as pied. This may not be completely correct but splash, pied, baldhead, white flight etc. are all just types of piebald to me. How they came to be this way can be from a variety of genetic sources. Still all pieds to me.

The black cock bird has a white rump, could throw a variety of white markings in young birds. He has an odd look to me that I can't put my finger on as if there is something there that I'm missing. He also has a very orange eye and this may mean something. I'm not very good at eye colors and what they mean but they can tell alot about the genetics of a bird as well.

Bill


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## TheSnipes

jbangelfish said:


> The black cock bird has a white rump, could throw a variety of white markings in young birds. He has an odd look to me that I can't put my finger on as if there is something there that I'm missing. He also has a very orange eye and this may mean something. I'm not very good at eye colors and what they mean but they can tell alot about the genetics of a bird as well.
> 
> Bill


he's a feral


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## MaryOfExeter

I think normally ferals have those bright orange, yellow, or red eyes.

Also another question...can white pop up on just about any color, pattern, etc.? Cause you would think a recessive red would be all red and any spread bird would be solid in color, but I've seen white on both of those. Some things are dominate and recessive to others but it seems like white is that magically color that just doesn't care and shows anyway


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## jbangelfish

*White can pretty much go anywhere*



MaryOfExeter said:


> I think normally ferals have those bright orange, yellow, or red eyes.
> 
> Also another question...can white pop up on just about any color, pattern, etc.? Cause you would think a recessive red would be all red and any spread bird would be solid in color, but I've seen white on both of those. Some things are dominate and recessive to others but it seems like white is that magically color that just doesn't care and shows anyway


It is completely unrelated to the actual color of the pigeon, if that makes any sense. It doesn't matter what color or pattern they have, white can join the makeup of the bird and often enhance their beauty.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

Thanks 
In my opinion white usually makes a bird a lot prettier. Especially when its in the flight feathers and you get to watch them fly.


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## bluecheck

MaryOfExeter said:


> I think normally ferals have those bright orange, yellow, or red eyes.
> 
> Also another question...can white pop up on just about any color, pattern, etc.? Cause you would think a recessive red would be all red and any spread bird would be solid in color, but I've seen white on both of those. Some things are dominate and recessive to others but it seems like white is that magically color that just doesn't care and shows anyway


This might help you understand it:
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/WHITE.html

It's not totally up to date, there's more information on pied alleles now, but it should give you a running start on "white", which is actually more than one thing -- they just all lead to a loss of pigment production leading to "white".

Frank


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