# I need more knowledge about color genetic



## sev3ns0uls

Please in-light me about pigeon's color appearances. 
So yes I did read and done some research sometime ago and it was quite amusing to find out about what color the offspring will turn out to be. From some of the researches, some experts said that male offspring will inherit genes from both mom and dad but will have only the mother's color appearance and female offspring will get all father genes only and father's color appearance. 

But i was puzzled when a offspring i expect to be a cock mated with another cock. I though it was a cock. It has a big body built, and have the color appearance of its mother. 

here is mother










here is father with her and nest mate










here when they are younger. White born first.










would you assume that the white one is a male and the black one is a female?

well, it turns out that the white one is a hen which now recently mated with one of my young white cock while the other one stay with father. the black one sex is still unknown, but i assume it my be a hen too.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

I think the mother might be spread khaki. I'm not sure. I was thinking ash-yellow but the wings look odd. If she is ash-yellow, then yes, the light bird would be the cockbird and the blue would be a hen. She could be extreme dilute black or extreme dilute blue t-pattern (aka - lemons).

The sex-linking only works with some genes (such as the base colors - ash-red, blue, and brown). Many other genes that go into the color you see are autosomal and thus both genders have pairs of those genes they can pass to the offspring, rather than a pair in the male and a single gene from the female. Most of the time pairings are NOT set up to sex-link/auto-sex the children.

First we need to figure out what mom is. The dad is a simple heterozygous andalusian. The blue based kid looks kind of weird but it is indigo from what I can tell. Probably also sooty to make those markings on the wing. Once it moults it should be easier to tell. Can you get a side-view picture of the lighter colored one?

What were the colors of the mother's parents?


----------



## sev3ns0uls

MaryOfExeter said:


> I think the mother might be spread khaki. I'm not sure. I was thinking ash-yellow but the wings look odd. If she is ash-yellow, then yes, the light bird would be the cockbird and the blue would be a hen. She could be extreme dilute black or extreme dilute blue t-pattern (aka - lemons).
> 
> The sex-linking only works with some genes (such as the base colors - ash-red, blue, and brown). Many other genes that go into the color you see are autosomal and thus both genders have pairs of those genes they can pass to the offspring, rather than a pair in the male and a single gene from the female. Most of the time pairings are NOT set up to sex-link/auto-sex the children.
> 
> First we need to figure out what mom is. The dad is a simple heterozygous andalusian. The blue based kid looks kind of weird but it is indigo from what I can tell. Probably also sooty to make those markings on the wing. Once it moults it should be easier to tell. Can you get a side-view picture of the lighter colored one?
> 
> What were the colors of the mother's parents?












yes, both off springs have moulted and i can post up picture of them tomorrow. I can tell you that their color appearance has not change a lot but the lighter one look more silver now.

yes, father is a andalusian but i dont have any background on the mother. I just assume her bright color appearance means her parents must be splash with lemon mix. 

as for the blue base indigo one, i dont know its sex yet. The father think that its his mate now but (he/she) did not do any interesting response back for father's calling either.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

You are on the right track, Firstly what you have said is not quite true 

"some experts said that male offspring will inherit genes from both mom and dad but will have only the mother's color appearance and female offspring will get all father genes only and father's color appearance. "

You are right that the male pigeon will inherit base colour from both mom and dad but it will not always shows the mothers colour appearance, It will show whatever colour is more dominant from the two. Remember a cock can have a colour hidden which can be inherited by the offspring so a red cock carrying blue paired to a blue hen can produce blue and red in both sexes.

Also what you have said with regards to the hen is correct in that it will only get its fathers colour genes BUT once again as a cock can carry two colours, One hidden. You will get daughters showing the cocks hidden colour. IE a red cock bird carrying blue will be red but can have blue or red daughters.

The pairing above looks to be ash yellow hen with pied and a dun - (Black spread with dilulte) This is a sex linked mating because the mothers base colour is dominant over the cocks, This means from this pairing all yellows/reds will be cocks and silvers/blues will be hens. The pied baby in the photo looks to be red based with dilute so you are right when you say its a cock, The other is blue based with dilute so a hen. 

Just remember that there are lots of other modifiers at play with your birds so what I have explained only applies to the base colour and any of the other genes that run on the sex chromosome of the bird. 

Order of dominance is Brown - recessive, Blue/Black - wild type, Ash red - dominant.

Your have a blue based cockbird and a Ash red based hen.

Hard to put in words but hope this helps, Any questions or clarification ask away. Maybe Becky or one of the pros can word it simpler.

Check out 

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html

Simplest and best description I have found on base colours and sex linkage


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Wondered about andalusian. I was wrong saying its a Dun . Still what I have said applies IF the hen is ash red. I thought that she may have looked like a smooth spread ash red with dilute ? What you think Becky?


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Becky? The cock bird baby, does that look dilute to you?


----------



## Print Tippler

i was thinking dun too before i saw your post, nz. Dirty dun thought because of the dark beak.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

Spread ash-yellow, from the limited pictures I've seen, do not look that creamy. They look might lighter and almost white in the shield.

Does the mother or the light colored baby have a tail bar by chance?


I keep looking at the mom. Coarse t-pattern spread perhaps? Enough to lighten/smooth out the pattern a bit but not so much to wash it out completely. Plus I do see a chunk of "normal" color on the wing where the bar would be.
OR perhaps this is another case of dominant opal on ash-yellow like in those saddles we all had a fit over previously.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Print Tippler said:


> i was thinking dun too before i saw your post, nz. Dirty dun thought because of the dark beak.


Yeah, Also if the cockbird baby is yellow as it appears then he has to carry dilute, Making him either silver dun or silver andalusian. Not a simple het andalusian as Becky has mentioned. If it is andalusian it is not very well marked.


----------



## sev3ns0uls

NZ Pigeon said:


> You are on the right track, Firstly what you have said is not quite true
> 
> "some experts said that male offspring will inherit genes from both mom and dad but will have only the mother's color appearance and female offspring will get all father genes only and father's color appearance. "
> 
> You are right that the male pigeon will inherit base colour from both mom and dad but it will not always shows the mothers colour appearance, It will show whatever colour is more dominant from the two. Remember a cock can have a colour hidden which can be inherited by the offspring so a red cock carrying blue paired to a blue hen can produce blue and red in both sexes.
> 
> Also what you have said with regards to the hen is correct in that it will only get its fathers colour genes BUT once again as a cock can carry two colours, One hidden. You will get daughters showing the cocks hidden colour. IE a red cock bird carrying blue will be red but can have blue or red daughters.
> 
> The pairing above looks to be ash yellow hen with pied and a dun - (Black spread with dilulte) This is a sex linked mating because the mothers base colour is dominant over the cocks, This means from this pairing all yellows/reds will be cocks and silvers/blues will be hens. The pied baby in the photo looks to be red based with dilute so you are right when you say its a cock, The other is blue based with dilute so a hen.
> 
> Just remember that there are lots of other modifiers at play with your birds so what I have explained only applies to the base colour and any of the other genes that run on the sex chromosome of the bird.
> 
> Order of dominance is Brown - recessive, Blue/Black - wild type, Ash red - dominant.
> 
> Your have a blue based cockbird and a Ash red based hen.
> 
> Hard to put in words but hope this helps, Any questions or clarification ask away. Maybe Becky or one of the pros can word it simpler.
> 
> Check out
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html
> 
> Simplest and best description I have found on base colours and sex linkage


If that blue one turn out to be a hen, then i guess this two off springs are both hens. But what if its a cock? will it be hiding ash yellow?

Also How can the lighter one have mother's color appearance when its a hen? The lighter one is female for sure because as 4 months old, she response like my other hens to a cooing 6 months old cock. The white young cock had invited her into his territory and she accepted.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yeah, Also if the cockbird baby is yellow as it appears then he has to carry dilute, Making him either silver dun or silver andalusian. Not a simple het andalusian as Becky has mentioned. If it is andalusian it is not very well marked.


Dilute andalusian then. But I do think it is andalusian. Andalusian in homers are almost never marked well anyway. Many of them have bronze leakage.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

sev3ns0uls said:


> If that blue one turn out to be a hen, then i guess this two off springs are both hens. But what if its a cock? will it be hiding ash yellow?
> 
> Also How can the lighter one have mother's color appearance when its a hen? The lighter one is female for sure because as 4 months old, she response like my other hens to a cooing 6 months old cock. The white young cock had invited her into his territory and she accepted.


Blue cannot carry ash-red but ash-red can carry blue  So the light colored baby, which would be the cockbird if this IS a sex-linked mating, would be carrying blue.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

The blue indigo baby looks like it could be dilute as well I'm thinking it's spread as well for such a smooth shield.


----------



## sev3ns0uls

MaryOfExeter said:


> Spread ash-yellow, from the limited pictures I've seen, do not look that creamy. They look might lighter and almost white in the shield.
> 
> Does the mother or the light colored baby have a tail bar by chance?
> 
> 
> I keep looking at the mom. Coarse t-pattern spread perhaps? Enough to lighten/smooth out the pattern a bit but not so much to wash it out completely. Plus I do see a chunk of "normal" color on the wing where the bar would be.
> OR perhaps this is another case of dominant opal on ash-yellow like in those saddles we all had a fit over previously.


Mother dont have it and so does the lighter one. She have Andalusian tail like her father but its more lighter. no bar

by the way, both have reddish chest.

Wait, as i remeber, mother might not be a full blooded homer. I not quite sure or know but when she walk on my roof and in the loft, her closed wings are draggy like some fantail. She dont place them above her tail like the rest of my homers.


----------



## george simon

NZ Pigeon said:


> You are on the right track, Firstly what you have said is not quite true
> 
> "some experts said that male offspring will inherit genes from both mom and dad but will have only the mother's color appearance and female offspring will get all father genes only and father's color appearance. "
> 
> You are right that the male pigeon will inherit base colour from both mom and dad but it will not always shows the mothers colour appearance, It will show whatever colour is more dominant from the two. Remember a cock can have a colour hidden which can be inherited by the offspring so a red cock carrying blue paired to a blue hen can produce blue and red in both sexes.
> 
> Also what you have said with regards to the hen is correct in that it will only get its fathers colour genes BUT once again as a cock can carry two colours, One hidden. You will get daughters showing the cocks hidden colour. IE a red cock bird carrying blue will be red but can have blue or red daughters.
> 
> The pairing above looks to be ash yellow hen with pied and a dun - (Black spread with dilulte) This is a sex linked mating because the mothers base colour is dominant over the cocks, This means from this pairing all yellows/reds will be cocks and silvers/blues will be hens. The pied baby in the photo looks to be red based with dilute so you are right when you say its a cock, The other is blue based with dilute so a hen.
> 
> Just remember that there are lots of other modifiers at play with your birds so what I have explained only applies to the base colour and any of the other genes that run on the sex chromosome of the bird.
> 
> Order of dominance is Brown - recessive, Blue/Black - wild type, Ash red - dominant.
> 
> Your have a blue based cockbird and a Ash red based hen.
> 
> Hard to put in words but hope this helps, Any questions or clarification ask away. Maybe Becky or one of the pros can word it simpler.
> 
> Check out
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html
> 
> Simplest and best description I have found on base colours and sex linkage


*Let me clear this gene thing up, first one must under stand is that the young get two genes one from each parent,EXECPT for the color gene. With the color gene only the young cock gets two genes for color,while the young hen gets onlly one from the father,and none from the mother.*
GEORGE


----------



## sev3ns0uls

george simon said:


> *Let me clear this gene thing up, first one must under stand is that the young get two genes one from each parent,EXECPT for the color gene. With the color gene only the young cock gets two genes for color,while the young hen gets onlly one from the father,and none from the mother.*
> GEORGE


hmm then how come the lighter one is a hen, not a cock? Where is the white color come from? Dad is full andalusian.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

The lighter one is a hen for sure?


----------



## sev3ns0uls

MaryOfExeter said:


> The lighter one is a hen for sure?


yes, it mated with a young cock recently. Ill post picture of all of them tomorrow after work.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

Well, then either the mother was not ash-red based afterall, or another cockbird fertilized the egg. Although it does look like mom might have a white tail? Which would cover up any tail bar. And the light colored baby might be spread indigo on....khaki? Just making some wild guesses. Unless mom really is ash-red based, the pair stayed true, and it was just a cross-over, which does happen.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

It just occured to me that the cockbird could be carrying brown. Which would mean mom can be ash-red based and this all still make sense! Mom could also possibly be indigo and the light colored baby may be a "light phase" andalusian on khaki? Once again, throwing things out there.


----------



## indigobob

The pair is an andalusian cock and an ash-red dominant opal hen; the youngsters are both dominant opal. The darker one an andalusian dominant opal and the lighter one possibly a blue cheq dominant opal or indigo cheq dominant opal - both hens - had the latter been a cock I would have suggested ash-red indigo/andalusian dominant opal.

It should be pointed out that not all colours are on the sex-chromosome, so a hen can "carry" certain colours, e.g. recessive red (e), recessive opal (o), and daughters can inherit certain colours from their mother, e.g. indigo (In), dominant opal (Od).


----------



## george simon

sev3ns0uls said:


> hmm then how come the lighter one is a hen, not a cock? Where is the white color come from? Dad is full andalusian.


*First you must understand that there only 3 color genes in pigeon genetics,red,blue, and brown. These colors can be modified by modifing genes.These modifing genes hide the true color of the bird. In this case the Spread modifier and the Indigo modifier are at work thus we have a parent that is Andalusion and it could be hiding some white. There are many forms of white in pigeon genetics and I will not go into them now. You also must understand that white is NOT a color but is in fact is the lack of color. * GEORGE


----------



## sev3ns0uls

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well, then either the mother was not ash-red based afterall, or another cockbird fertilized the egg. Although it does look like mom might have a white tail? Which would cover up any tail bar. And the light colored baby might be spread indigo on....khaki? Just making some wild guesses. Unless mom really is ash-red based, the pair stayed true, and it was just a cross-over, which does happen.


here are the picture

here is when she was a sqeaker









here is her with the mate.

















here is


----------



## sev3ns0uls

more pix

here is up close feather color resemble mom, but it have Andalusian to it. 









here is her nest mate(unknown sex) with dad









here is the color after moult


----------



## sev3ns0uls

MaryOfExeter said:


> Spread ash-yellow, from the limited pictures I've seen, do not look that creamy. They look might lighter and almost white in the shield.
> 
> Does the mother or the light colored baby have a tail bar by chance?
> 
> 
> I keep looking at the mom. Coarse t-pattern spread perhaps? Enough to lighten/smooth out the pattern a bit but not so much to wash it out completely. Plus I do see a chunk of "normal" color on the wing where the bar would be.
> OR perhaps this is another case of dominant opal on ash-yellow like in those saddles we all had a fit over previously.


here are the tail of both nest mates

This is her. The color at the end tip is only poo. 









the offspring (unknown sex)










here is the picture of cording 










lols and the cock is fighting a check cock to show off to his mate


----------



## sev3ns0uls

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well, then either the mother was not ash-red based afterall, or another cockbird fertilized the egg. Although it does look like mom might have a white tail? Which would cover up any tail bar. And the light colored baby might be spread indigo on....khaki? Just making some wild guesses. Unless mom really is ash-red based, the pair stayed true, and it was just a cross-over, which does happen.


i doubt it, cause i got her around the end of july and after a week she mated and for 2 more weeks, she lay the two eggs and both hatched on August 1st.
Father is only the mature cock at that time. all other birds are young 3 months old.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

Ah, I can see the opal in the light kid now! The andalusian baby not so much. Aren't opalusians usually more pronounced than that?


----------



## Henk69

No offence, but only one color gene is nonsense i.m.o.

The color pigments (in pigeons mainly eumelanin and pheomelanin) are synthesized in chemical pathways. These chemical reactions can be accelerated by an array of "enzymes" which are coded by colorgenes. To call one of these genes the only colorgene may be a good trick to teach the workings of colorgenetics, but else?
I can live with "base color gene" though... 

That one gene is the switch between pheomelanin and eumelanin AND that it is responsable for a degraded form of eumelanin, is very unusual in general colorgenetics.
Maybe that is the reason it is called "the one colorgene"?

In chickengenetics we gave the recessive white gene the symbol c from Color.
I don't mind a bit of colorgene history of the pigeon...


----------



## NZ Pigeon

george simon said:


> *Let me clear this gene thing up, first one must under stand is that the young get two genes one from each parent,EXECPT for the color gene. With the color gene only the young cock gets two genes for color,while the young hen gets onlly one from the father,and none from the mother.*
> GEORGE


Yes, I think that has all been covered and understood by most, Be careful though as there are more than just the Bbase colourB genes that are sex linked meaning the cock gets two genes and the hens have one, From memory these are Base colour - Ash red, Blue/Black and Brown. Followed by Dilute, pale and extreme dilute, Then we have Almond and its Allelles, Qualmond, Hickory, Sandy, Frosty and Faded and then lastly on the sex chromosome is Reduced and Rubella on the same allelle. 

There may be debate over what the birds are in this particular example and thats great but putting them aside the thread maker still needs a little help to understand the inheritance of the genes a little more, Which is also great as the more people know the better quality birds are produced.


----------

