# Racing pigeon with concussion



## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi,

I wonder if I could have some advice please. I'm caring for an injured and exhausted racing pigeon we have found on a train station (24 hours ago). The bird has suffered a concussion (drowsy, left eye closed, subtle problems with coordination, vision and balance, some weakness in left wing and leg). No external injuries or fractures have been found. The bird has received first aid treatment (rehydration, pain killers) and is "adequately confined. The pigeon is drinking with help, and since today occasionally independently the Poly-Aid solution provided (emergency nutrition for sick and injured birds - stops sick birds from starving). However, it is not feeding yet. Poops are "starving" ones. Crop is empty. My question is, would you start force feeding a bird in this situation, and if so, how long would you wait before you start force feeding it? 

Many thanks for your help again. 

Stephan.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes Stephan, you should feed the bird. You can do this...

You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Stephan,

This was my timescale:

One of my woodies got concussed a couple of moths ago, her neck was completely flaccid when I found her, she was weak down one side, the ferals had pecked at one of her eyes and she had damaged her side and a wing trying to get up.

I found her at 10 in the morning, started hand feeding her defrosted peas that evening (but I had to guide hem down her throat) and by 2 the next morning she was sitting up properly, later that day she was shuffling around a bit but it took a couple of days before she was able to walk and then a bit longer before she could fly.

I treated her homeopathically according to Beryl Chapman's instructions and gave her Metacam.

Poly Aid is a real life saver, but it has very litle residue to show up in poops' so you will get the green bile of "starvation poops".


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Without food at all in the crop it is doubtful that the bird will regain enough strength to self feed, so start as soon as possible. The problems you stated might be overcome with food. Thank you for taking the time to not only rescue, but to seek advice. Keep us posted; Jim


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Thank you very much for all the replies and advice. In the meantime I have fed the pigeon about 8 peas, 2 pieces of sweetcorn and some grains, all soaked to make them nice and soft. I have stopped at this point to avoid to much stress. The pigeon is still conspicuously thirsty. It has "climbed" the food bowl and is sleeping on it now. I will keep you posted about further developments.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Good save, Stephan.

They need quite a lot of peas and corn for as long as you need to hand feed. The three I had here at one time had 40+ bits twice a day at first, but as I observed them getting back into feeding themselves, producing good consistent poops (and gaining weight) I reduced it to a supplement only and then none. 

But hopefully this one wll soon get back to eating, when it is comfortable and rested.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Stephan,

I just looked back to your comment on the Poly Aid that he is drinking independently...is the solution you are giving him thick enough? He will need about 7 teaspoons mixed with 11 mls of water...that is quite thick, but it gives him the nutrition that he needs. If tube feeding I make a bit extra as it needs sieving.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> Hi Stephan,
> 
> I just looked back to your comment on the Poly Aid that he is drinking independently...is the solution you are giving him thick enough? He will need about 7 teaspoons mixed with 11 mls of water...that is quite thick, but it gives him the nutrition that he needs. If tube feeding I make a bit extra as it needs sieving.
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia, you are right! If mixed according to the recipe it is very thick and pretty sticky too. If had diluted it down a little bit to make it drinkable, as a compromise, at least for the time being until it became clear that the bird wouldn't feed by its own. The bird is getting better, is now more alert, walking around and did the first time a very long and thorough preening session. I am still feeding (about 30 peas this morning) and the poops are starting to get better (so I am told, as I am still at work). So no tube feeding is needed. We are getting there...


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

John_D said:


> Good save, Stephan.
> 
> They need quite a lot of peas and corn for as long as you need to hand feed. The three I had here at one time had 40+ bits twice a day at first, but as I observed them getting back into feeding themselves, producing good consistent poops (and gaining weight) I reduced it to a supplement only and then none.
> 
> ...


Thanks John! I have increased the amount of peas as suggested this morning, as I got a bit concerned yesterday evening as the pigeon got to agitated whilst feeding...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

rook said:


> Thank you very much for all the replies and advice. In the meantime I have fed the pigeon about 8 peas, 2 pieces of sweetcorn and some grains, all soaked to make them nice and soft. I have stopped at this point to avoid to much stress. The pigeon is still conspicuously thirsty.** It has "climbed" the food bowl and is sleeping on it now. *I will keep you posted about further developments.



I'm glad he is improving.

* I just noticed this comment.
Perhaps he is seeking warmth, as they are not able to maintain enough heat when sick perhaps he is looking for warmth or out of drafts of air?


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Trees Gray said:


> I'm glad he is improving.
> 
> * I just noticed this comment.
> Perhaps he is seeking warmth, as they are not able to maintain enough heat when sick perhaps he is looking for warmth or out of drafts of air?


I don't think so as he is in a draught free room with about 23 degrees room temperature all day / night round. I haven't applied any additional heat sources like infrared lights or a heat pad as I have learned that this is regarded as potentially risky in birds with concussion and central nervous symptoms.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

rook said:


> I don't think so as he is in a draught free room with about 23 degrees room temperature all day / night round. I haven't applied any additional heat sources like infrared lights or a heat pad as I have learned that this is regarded as potentially risky in birds with concussion and central nervous symptoms.


Yes, I know that they should never have heat applied to a concussion area, therefore I mention a warm draft free area.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Trees Gray said:


> Yes, I know that they should never have heat applied to a concussion area, therefore I mention a warm draft free area.


Sorry, just meant to explain my thought process... Do you think the room temperature should be higher or would you apply a heat pad? Many thanks for your advice.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

rook said:


> I don't think so as he is in a draught free room with about 23 degrees room temperature all day / night round. I haven't applied any additional heat sources like infrared lights or a heat pad as I have learned that this is regarded as potentially risky in birds with concussion and central nervous symptoms.


Can you convert what 23 degrees is in fahernheit. Pigeons can handle cold weather to 30 degrees, but not when they are sick and they cannot handle drafts of air no matter what the temp. But I know you have him well tucked away from drafts.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Trees Gray said:


> Can you convert what 23 degrees is in fahernheit. Pigeons can handle cold weather to 30 degrees, but not when they are sick and they cannot handle drafts of air no matter what the temp. But I know you have him well tucked away from drafts.



23 degree celsius = 73.4 fahrenheit. The pigeon is indoors in our centrally heated utility room, which we regularly use for rescue birds.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Well that sounds good then.  

Thank you for explaining.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Trees Gray said:


> Well that sounds good then.
> 
> Thank you for explaining.



Thank you. I wil keep you posted.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Just a brief update including a pic of the beautiful pigeon. The bird is more active and preens itself quite often. He is still a bit wobbly and stumbles occasionally over its own feet. It drinks occasionally without help but is still very thirsty when I offer more fluids. I still hand feed the bird, mainly with defrosted peas (preferred by the pigeon) and some other soaked pigeon food. Today it started pecking the seeds in the food bowl, but didn't eat anything. The left eye is now half open and the bird seems to have some degree of vision on this eye (the right eye was fine from the beginning). Poops are better formed and creamy, but still pretty dark green almost black (could this be the result of the defrosted peas ?). Urates are still watery and not white. Is there anything I am missing? By the way, there are no other neurological symptoms like stargazing, fits, torticollis etc. Throat is clear, no other signs of an infection are found.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Does the dodgy eye seem at all watery? Any signs of any nasal discharge, or staining of the cere?

John


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

John_D said:


> Does the dodgy eye seem at all watery? Any signs of any nasal discharge, or staining of the cere?
> 
> John


No discharge at all. The eye is a bit bloodshot though, but no signs of a conjunctivitis, discharge, staining etc. The eye affected is the left one, the same side the pigeon had problems with wing and foot. And some other news, he is now perching on a low level perch rather than on the food bowel.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Stephan,

I don't think the defrosted peas would have a bad effect on the poops...the reason that I started recommending them was that when John used them on his PMV trio they produced perfect poops.

Have you been in touch with its owner? Knowing his innoculation, worming and other treatments history might help.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> Hi Stephan,
> 
> I don't think the defrosted peas would have a bad effect on the poops...the reason that I started recommending them was that when John used them on his PMV trio they produced perfect poops.
> 
> ...


Hi Cynthia,

Thank you for your help! I have checked the poops today under daylight conditions. They are not as black as I thought yesterday, just dark green, still creamy. White, still runny urates are visible now as well. I think the colouration is caused by the green pea only diet. He still prefers the defrosted peas over anything more solid.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Just came back from watching him starting to eat by its own. He still got coordination problems with his little tongue and beak, as he still looses control over the bigger items. But it already works with wheat grains and similar sized food. And the other observation is, that he is still a bit forgetful... Anyway, will still continue our feeding session tonight though...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can give him defrosted corn along with the peas. It would give a little more variety. And leave some with him to see if he can pick them up on his own. Sometimes, before they can pick up seed, they can pick up the defrosted peas and corn, I think because they are softer.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> You can give him defrosted corn along with the peas. It would give a little more variety. And leave some with him to see if he can pick them up on his own. Sometimes, before they can pick up seed, they can pick up the defrosted peas and corn, I think because they are softer.


Thank you very much. This is a good idea, I will try corn as well. Have already added defrosted / fresh peas and some greens into the food bowl.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have had squeakers that would pick up the peas and corn before they would pick up seed. Then I start adding seed, and eventually they will experiment and change over to the seed. I think it's just easier for them to pick up. Good idea that you added them to the food bowl.


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Rook,
Thanks for the pic. Nice, clean pigeon. good luck


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

This pigeon has made good progress in your care. You are very observant, which makes a big difference. Hope he continues to improve!

Early on, you mentioned that it "climbed" the food bowl and slept there. Pigeons seem to prefer to sleep on a raised platform - maybe he was trying to approximate that. The advantage is that they poop off the edge making for easier clean up.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TerriB said:


> T
> 
> Early on, you mentioned that it "climbed" the food bowl and slept there. Pigeons seem to prefer to sleep on a raised platform - maybe he was trying to approximate that. The advantage is that they poop off the edge making for easier clean up.


Yes, I'm pretty sure that is why he was sleeping on the food dish.  It gave him a little perch.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Yes, I'm pretty sure that is why he was sleeping on the food dish.  It gave him a little perch.


Yes, I think you are right. At the beginning, when we found him, he couldn't walk or properly sit or even perch. Therefore I covered the floor with a soft thick towel to avoid damage to the body. But as soon as he got better, his instinct / experience won and he tried to find the highest / safest area in the cage - the food bowl.

There are some other positive developments to report. He stopped drinking excessive amounts of fluids and is now back to a normal level. Since then the consistency and colouration of poops / urates have normalised as well. The left eye is now completely open.

We also had two "struggle hand feeding sessions", but now, eventually, I have got the message. I am now greeted with proper wing slaps and beak attacks as soon as I put my hands on him. The other fascinating fact is, that as soon as he sees me he starts eating, just to proof the point, that I should stop "torturing" him, which I obviously will. However, I will obviously monitor droppings and weight, as he is still occasionally a bit forgetful.


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## Gnuretiree (May 29, 2009)

Sounds like one very lucky pigeon to have run into you.

Hugh


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Thanks. I think that it is actually a privilege to be able to help an animal in distress, regardless wether it is a tiny Chiffchaff having hit a window, a Jackdaw being attacked by a cat, a Pigeon having had a head trauma or a Swan having suffered a dog attack...

And I also think he is right when he is saying:

“Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to a man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures.” - The Dalai Lama


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Rook,

Just caught up with your thread, very interesting to follow.
So pleased he's showing some improvement. Looking forward to the updates and wish you the best of luck with his recovery.

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> “Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to a man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures.” - The Dalai Lama


Hmmm...that was my signature, and I am so unobservant that until I read your post I hadn't noticed our signatures and avatars have disappeared.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> Hmmm...that was my signature, and I am so unobservant that until I read your post I hadn't noticed our signatures and avatars have disappeared.


Sorry, didn't mean to "nick" your signature  - just remembered this wise sentence when I thought about the way animals are treated by the majority of the society...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

LOL! No, I was just surprised that all the photos and signatures had disappeared from my screen and I hadn't noticed...it turns out that my display options had been altered  Anyway, I have corrected that now.

I particularly like the Dalai Lama's quote because I can visualise him saying that.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

rook said:


> ....as soon as he sees me he starts eating...


It could be that he feels more comfortable eating when there's another pair of eyes watching out for predators. Pigeons are very social so maybe he views you as his flock.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

TerriB said:


> It could be that he feels more comfortable eating when there's another pair of eyes watching out for predators. Pigeons are very social so maybe he views you as his flock.


Being regarded as a member of the flock, I definitely take this as an compliment! 

Nicky (the pigeon) is doing a lot better. Feeding, drinking and digestion are all perfect, which makes me very happy!!! There is still a bit to go, but at least everything is now less stressful in terms of handling related stress. On the other hand, it is just a week ago, since my wife found him, so all the progress is actually quite amazing. 

My son just brought in another injured feral pigeon, he has found on the High Street. This one (Willy) has a bleeding soft tissue injury of the left wing as well as large wing haematoma. Although I can't feel a fracture (the haematoma is along radius and ulna), I have immobilised the wing temporary, after we managed to stop the bleed and cleaned the wound. The poor thing is resting now, hopefully things look better tomorrow.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Brilliant news about Nicky, what an amazing turn around. Well done.

These pigeons are certainly finding their way to the best 'private hospital' in the neighbourhood. 

I hope your latest patient is going to be ok. Good luck with this one too.

Janet


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

amyable said:


> Hi,
> 
> Brilliant news about Nicky, what an amazing turn around. Well done.
> 
> ...


Hi Janet, Thank you very much! My latest patient survived the first night and is actually not doing to badly. He is feeding independently and is starting to get used to be bandaged. I will keep you posted.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Just another brief update, as promised. The Racing Pigeon (who is actually called Jimmy and not Nicky, because Nicky is the name of the injured Mute Swan we had rescued recently...sorry, not that this matters) is showing further progress, but has still slight issues with eyesight and coordination. The Feral Pigeon (Willy - just for my defence, the naming business is done by my kids!!!) is doing better as well. The x-rays I have done didn't show a fracture or dislocation. He is feeding independently too and the wound is healing, although there is still a large haematoma present. But at least, I could take off the bandage and wound dressing.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

There are some new developments to report. I think I know now, why the droppings where not right for quite a while. The reason was and still is likely to be, that apart from the additional head trauma Jimmy is also suffering of PMV, which might have been the reason for his head trauma in the first place. He is now showing some other neurosymptoms like stargazing and throwing food around. The coordination problems are in particular obvious when he is trying to eat or when is trying to watch me. The food intake is not good enough, so I need to feed him again. I just hope that things remain stable and are not going further downhill. Apart from all the trouble, he is very affectionate and lovely.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> apart from the additional head trauma Jimmy is also suffering of PMV, which might have been the reason for his head trauma in the first place


I am sorry about that, but from your initial comments I think that you suspected this for a while and were watching out for it. It is similar to what heppened with John's latest rescue Feather. She turned up with a scalp wound, but after 10 days developed PMV symptoms.

It is worrying that he does not appear to have been vaccinated...pigeons who have been vaccinated and then the vaccination lapse tend to get diarrhea only.

Try giving him Calcivet, that seems to help. So do some homeopathic remedies, you have to match the remedy to the pigeon and to the modalities but some you an consider are Hypericum, Conium Mac and Belladonna.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Thank you very much, Cynthia. Yes, I was a bit suspicius that there was something else. But there is obviously some overlap of symptoms, isn't there? Anyway, I will give him calcium and I also have got hypericum I could give him too. He is now having again runny brownish droppings, so I guess I will give him probiotics again. Apart from the general misery he seems to be relatively comfortable.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Yes, I was a bit suspicius that there was something else. But there is obviously some overlap of symptoms, isn't there?


Yes, but it is in the case of injury that I let my guard down. I was *so* close to cutting Feather's quarantine short by a couple of days because her injury was so visible.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

I thinks it is about time for another update. Our Jimmy is with us now for about 5 weeks. His gastrointestinal problems have settled, but his neurological problems are still present. It is now pretty definite that he is suffering of PMV, on top of the trauma he had when we found him. His symptoms are a bit variable, and there are days where he seems to get better and days where things get worse. He is able to drink and eat by its own now, but needs to be reminded and occasionally assisted. He is still doing a bit of stargazing and is having a bit of a torticollis. He is also occasionally walking in circles, in particular when agitated. Everything disappears and settles completely when he is sitting on my arm, as he does right now whilst I'm typing this reply. He seems often tired and is resting a lot, sometimes forgetting thinks like doing the toilet business or doing a poop. He is also very, very affectionate and a joy to have around. I just hope that things start to get better for this lovely bird...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Have you tried giving him Calcivet? I used it on my Karate Kid who had had a PMV "relapse" and now she seems much better able to control her torticollis.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi Cynthia, I haven't got Calcivet, but I am giving him Zolcal-D (liquid calcium and vitamin D3) plus Multivitamins (includes all essential vitamins plus electrolytes and minerals). I suppose Calcivet is pretty much the same than Zolcal-D, isn't it? How long did it actually take in your birds until symptoms have started to disappear or have disappeared completely?


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry, it's me again. Now the poop problem seems to turn up again and is getting worse. Jimmy is sort of forgetting to do his poop bit, he is doing it almost exclusively when I handle him, but not because he us scared. Then he does a really huge smelly partly foamy one consisting of runny white urates and creamy dark green facies, a bit the ones hen do when they sit on a nest. Do you think I should give antibiotics blindly? Or should I get a vet to analyse the droppings (if this is possible at all). I give him already probiotics almost continously. Any ideas? Thank you very much for your help again.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That depends on whether your vet is like most of our other UK vets who only seem to have Baytril, Synulox or Metronidazole in stock so will prescribe one, or a combination of those, first!

But I did a search for "foamy droppings" and found this, it is about a cockatoo but the same principle applies:

_GAS BUBBLES in droppings means your bird could have an intestinal infection caused by one of the group of clostridium bacteria. This type of bacteria produces more gas than others during the metabolic process and can result in droppings with a foamy appearance. As with any other type of infection, your veterinarian should be culturing stools to test their sensitivity and choosing the best antibacterial to treat with. This should take care of your cockatoo's problem._

http://www.parrotchronicles.com/departments/foamydroppings_askdrharris.htm


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> That depends on whether your vet is like most of our other UK vets who only seem to have Baytril, Synulox or Metronidazole in stock so will prescribe one, or a combination of those, first!
> 
> But I did a search for "foamy droppings" and found this, it is about a cockatoo but the same principle applies:
> 
> ...


Thank you very much Cynthia! In the meantime I have been to the vet, a stool sample has been sent off and Baytril has been prescribed in the interim, until the result comes back, which will be mid next week at the earliest because of Easter. I have searched a bit around and found that Baytril has demonstrated a significant post-antibiotic effect for both Gram-negative and Gram-positive bacteria and is active in both stationary and growth phases of bacterial replication. Some sites mention specifically bugs like Clostridium perfringens, Escherichia coli and Salmonella spp, others don't. Many thanks for your advice again!

PS: Cynthia, the vet gave me about 50mls of Baytril, so I am well stocked now for the foreseeable future.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Rook...keep the baytril in the refridgerator as that will extend the life.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Charis said:


> Rook...keep the baytril in the refridgerator as that will extend the life.



Good point! Will do that. Many thanks!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is excellent news about the Baytril! 

Helen (Nooti) told me that you cn extend the life of Baytril by decanting whatever you are going to use for an individual rescue into a small container, so that you don't keep opening and dipping into the main bottle.

When are you expecting the test results? I will be interested in the outcome.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> That is excellent news about the Baytril!
> 
> Helen (Nooti) told me that you cn extend the life of Baytril by decanting whatever you are going to use for an individual rescue into a small container, so that you don't keep opening and dipping into the main bottle.
> 
> ...


Hi Cynthia, This is another good idea! I will do that in the future. I have already used up the "older Baytril" batches first. With regards to sample test results, there has been some misunderstanding on my side. Sorry! The surgery hasn't sent the sample off, they have put it in the fridge, and would have sent it off, if there wouldn't be any improvement by Tuesday (yesterday). But the good news is, that all is back to normal, at least with regards to the droppings. But the vet said I should keep Jimmy at least for a week on Baytril, which I will obviously do. However, the other neurological symptoms are seem to remain static...


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

There is some good news to tell you. The neurological symptoms seem now slowly but gradually to disappear and are now only obvious if Jimmy is agitated or tired. They are still present though, but the frequency and length of time is decreasing. There is still a "poop" problem to solve. I am sorry that I have to come back to this kind of topic.

Could it be, that a young but adult pigeon would avoid to soil it's homestead? What happens is, that Jimmy is not pooping at all into his "hospital cage". He would avoid doing that for at least 12 hours or perhaps even more. When I take him out and have him outside the cage, he would do his business, which is then very huge, size-wise. As the weather is now getting better, I started to bring him outside for a couple of hours (until he gets agitated), and he is then doing his business in a reasonable frequency (and in smaller amounts). Is that normal behaviour? Or if not, should I do something about it? Many thanks for your advice again!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Yes, it is normal, especially if he feels the cage is too small to get far enough away from where he sleeps. Any way you could add an extension to the cage? 

When I first got Grace (homer hen, mate to Walter), they were quarentined in a 36"x24"x24" wire dog crate in the bird room. When I'd open up the crate door to clean, she would blast past me, fly to the far end of the room and drop a huge poop. Since she always went to the same corner, I learned to put down a paper towel for easy clean up.  Some birds aren't so fastidious - probably depends on how they were brought up.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

TerriB said:


> Yes, it is normal, especially if he feels the cage is too small to get far enough away from where he sleeps. Any way you could add an extension to the cage?
> 
> When I first got Grace (homer hen, mate to Walter), they were quarentined in a 36"x24"x24" wire dog crate in the bird room. When I'd open up the crate door to clean, she would blast past me, fly to the far end of the room and drop a huge poop. Since she always went to the same corner, I learned to put down a paper towel for easy clean up.  Some birds aren't so fastidious - probably depends on how they were brought up.


Thanks Terry, that is exactly what I thought might be the cause of the behaviour, although I have never observed it in the birds I did care for. I hope that I can put him sooner or later in the large outdoor aviary permanently, that should solve this "issue". In the moment he is not stable enough, after 2 or 3 hours in the big aviary he "goes mad" and all the PMV symptoms are back. Thanks again for your help!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Stephan,

How long is it since he started showing the nervous symptoms? They shed the virus for 6 weeks, I start counting from the time the nervous symptoms show and then add a couple of weeks for safety before letting them mix with my other pigeons.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> Hi Stephan,
> 
> How long is it since he started showing the nervous symptoms? They shed the virus for 6 weeks, I start counting from the time the nervous symptoms show and then add a couple of weeks for safety before letting them mix with my other pigeons.
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia. We found Jimmy on the 24th February 2010, in other words about 6 weeks ago. As there might have been an overlap between trauma and PMV symptoms, I would say onset of symptoms was 6 weeks ago as well. But don't worry, he has been in quarantine since, and I have moved the other injured Feral Pigeon and juvenile Collared Dove from my outdoor aviary to a friends aviary to give them the company of other pigeons and doves, and to eventually release them in groups. My outdoor aviary is purely an aviary for rescue birds and Jimmy is spending his time in there by it's own. His symptoms are fluctuating a lot, 2 weeks ago he was almost back to normal, then things got worse, but he seems now very slowly recovering.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The effects of the disease can be unpredictable. Stephie had been having nervous symptoms that were quite severe for about 8 months before she came to us, and they continued for several months. We had almost given up hope of any change when suddenly she made a spontaneous recovery, which lasted a few weeks before she relapsed. Then, after a few more weeks she made another spomtaneous recovery and has been well ever since.

I am trying to find out exactly what causes these sudden changes.

Cynthia


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> The effects of the disease can be unpredictable. Stephie had been having nervous symptoms that were quite severe for about 8 months before she came to us, and they continued for several months. We had almost given up hope of any change when suddenly she made a spontaneous recovery, which lasted a few weeks before she relapsed. Then, after a few more weeks she made another spomtaneous recovery and has been well ever since.
> 
> I am trying to find out exactly what causes these sudden changes.
> 
> Cynthia


That is very interesting. I didn't know that birds could get a relapse without being exposed to another PMV strain. But it would be also really interesting, if one would find out more about the causes of relapse and of the variation of symptoms. It seems to me, pretty much as in human shingles, that the virus seems to persist in the host in a kind of inactive state, until being reactivated. I reckon, the take home message is not to give up hope.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is the strange thing, as far as I can understand from what I have read (mainly based Vindevogel and Duchatel's research) the virus doesn't persist or remain latent. But it is very difficult to get the right information without paying...and I fear that because I don't have the right scientific background , if I came across the right information I wouldn't recognise it or wouldn't understand it.  This article on the persistence of the measles virus is Greek to me!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15893837?dopt=Abstract


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

rook said:


> That is very interesting. I didn't know that birds could get a relapse without being exposed to another PMV strain. But it would be also really interesting, if one would find out more about the causes of relapse and of the variation of symptoms. It seems to me, pretty much as in human shingles, that the virus seems to persist in the host in a kind of inactive state, until being reactivated. I reckon, the take home message is not to give up hope.


As I understand it, the virus causes lesions in the brain which are permanent, though the virus itself runs its course within weeks. It would seem feasible that in some way, certain stresses for a pigeon may cause changes in the brain chemistry or activate particular neural channels, and that the brain lesions somehow cause abnormal functioning of processes a non-affected pigeon's system would deal with without problem. None of that is 'scientific', just a view.

John


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Cynthia and John, thank you very much for the interesting and useful information provided!


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

*Update*

Time is passing by quickly, and I thought that right now there would be a good time for another update. First of all there is good news! Jimmy, who turned out to be a female pigeon, is doing absolutely fine. Almost all PMV symptoms are now gone, apart from the one where she holds her head occasionally a little bit crooked, in particular when she is somewhat agitated. She is back to normal in every respect, including flying. It took a very long time to get there, but she made it! All this time we had a very close relationship, as she was very tame and enjoyed spending her time in human company, and we still have this special relationship. However, she has got a Pigeon mate now, and both bonded just recently, which also took quite a while. In that context, Jimmy told me about her engagement in her special way, after I have been away for three weeks. The first thing she did, when I was entering the aviary, was to walk towards Peter (her mate) to start preening him, just as to say: I am fine, everything is good now! 

Thanks again for all your help and advice, which really helped a lot!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi rook,



Very nice to hear...


Well done!


Might be some 'Peepers' on the way!




Phil
Lv


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is great news. I love it when they find a mate, they look so pleased about everything!


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes indeed, that is a happy end I like too!


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