# Babies in danger, what to do?



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Two weeks (I think? Or just one, I don't remember) ago I saw a pigeon nest in the downtown of my city. It was placed a little bit low, on an abandoned thing, but it was so well built that I thought "Wow, I guess these babies won't need any help!". I guess I was wrong. There were two little birds and their mother was feeding them. I have been dropping in to see them once in a couple of days since then.
Yesterday, I was surprised to see one of those "danger" things on that part of the block. I went to check them, and next to it, they were building/repairing something (I guess it's a store). I was looking at one of the birds (because I couldn't actually see the other), talking with my boyfriend about them, and trying to see the second one, when one of the workers started to talk to me. He told me there were two birds, and that one was much smaller than the other one, and that they had tried to convince the owner of the place to leave them there until they could fly. The owner hadn't agreed, and he had just allowed them to avoid closing the part where the birds were living until that was the only thing left to do. He told me they had to close it in about a week. I agreed to take them in one week (he offered me to get them down in that moment but I told him I'd rather wait and let the mother take care of them as long as possible because she'd probably do a better job).
Questions are:
1. Should I actually take them in? One of the birds has already got feathered wings, but the head still has yellow fluff. If I left them, the problem is that, since it's the downtown, there are a lot of cars and they won't stop because of a bird. If you are concerned about me dedicating myself to the birds, don't worry. I, as probably many of you, have been through nights without sleeping over sick birds (or animals in general). I am ready to take the pigeons in and, if they can't be released, I know I will be able to keep them. My family has been pretty indulgent over my rescue birds, and I have no problem with commitment. I have been with all my animals through sickness and old age, so it's not like I'd get bored of them and just release them o.o. I want your opinion to be as fact-based as possible, without taking into account my possible personal limitations, because I know them; and taking into account that culturally, as all of you know, pigeons are seen as disease carriers so there is little chance somebody else will go and help them :/. I lack knowledge, (one of the most important things!), but I think that I can do it right if you help me. We all start somewhere, after all.
2. If I do take them, should I take them tomorrow or on Friday?
3. Should I take the little bird first (eg tomorrow) to help it grow up better? The man said that the big one was taking all the food from the mother and that the little one wasn't eating a lot. I thought that maybe it'd be better for the little bird to eat a bit more.
4. There isn't bird formula in my city, and, anyways, I don't have much money. What do you think I can feed the birds? I've read a lot about peas and corn here... More options? I've read about puppy chow, and if it's possible to feed them that it'd be better since I have three dogs (so I have dog food for sure ). I feed my dogs Pedigree. Is it ok? I can get them other things, but please suggest as many as possible.
5. Until when do they need heating? I've never been sure.

If/when I take them, I'll post pics.
Please answer as soon as possible.

Paw.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pawbla,

I think certainly the little one needs help immediately, but it is possible that he is ill rather than that the larger one is getting all the food. I would rescue both to be on the safe side, but you have a better perspective on their chances.

You might need a vet...we know there is one in BA that has helped with a rescue pigeon, but I don't know how far that is from you.

Cynthia


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Basically it sounds like the nest is safe until the end of the week - but it sounds lie the little one is in danger of dying pretty soon. Also the big one doesn't sound old enough to survive if the nest is removed in only a week - if he still has yellow fluff on his head. *l say get the nest now* - do not wait any longer. You will need puppy chow or peas and corn or parrot pellets - and will also probably need medicine called Metronidazole or Fishzole - which is cheap and can be purchased in an aquarium/fish store. An eyedropper or syringe. Then 2 boxes cages or carriers to separate the babes for the time being....& something to keep them both warm


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

A little bit too much. But I have one in my city that might help. He helped my with one of my budgies (that died anyways so I'm a bit... uncertain about him) but I can try anyways.
I thought that he might be ill or maybe he was just some days younger so the big one was getting all the food for just... being bigger. I was planning on rescue both but I thought that maybe the little one needed help sooner. Maybe as Jaye says I should get both.
I will disinfect my cages today and tomorrow I'll go pick them up. Today the vet is not open and the workers aren't there (and I need a ladder!).
Which is the actual drug of those medicines? If there isn't one named like those, maybe I can get it under another name.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> A little bit too much.


LOL, yes, I just found it on the map!

A symptom of salmonellosis is that one baby will thrive and the other won't. That is treated with enrofloxacin (enrofloxacina) but ciprofloxacin (ciprofloxacina) which is the equivalent used on humans, would be OK. THose are the generic names, brand names would be different but a vet would be able to trace the relevant brands.

Another drug that can be used but is not as effective is a combination of amoxycillin + clavulanic acid (amoxicilina + acido clavulanico)


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

I hope you rescue them and save them. If the workers thought enough to talk to you about them I'm sure one of them can help you with a ladder. Lets hope so. Please keep us informed. min


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah, he offered to get them for me 
Thanks for the info on the drugs, Feefo. And the translation, haha . I will see what I get and then ask you about the dosage.
Disinfected one, one to go x.X


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Thanks for the info on the drugs, Feefo. And the translation, haha .


De nada, che!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> A little bit too much.





Pawbla said:


> Yeah, he offered to get them for me
> Thanks for the info on the drugs, Feefo. And the translation, haha . I will see what I get and then ask you about the dosage.
> Disinfected one, one to go x.X





Feefo said:


> De nada, che!




...there's sumthin' goin' over my head here....and it's not the local flock....

But as long as you can get those babies fast, they have a decent chance of living....._*Understand that even the bigger one sounds TOO YOUNG to possibly survive if the nest is removed or aggravated. This is why you need to take both.*_

It will be a bit sad in that the parents will be alarmed...but....there is no way either baby will live if you do anything else....

Paw...if you CANNOT find the Ciprofloxin or Enrofloxin...you should be able to find the Metronidazole/Fishzole. Also, see maybe if anyone you know has any human antibiotics, and what they might be.....

BTW.....it was very, very NICE of the workmen to care !

(BTW-BTW....my thought was canker, not salmonellosis)


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

"A little bit too much" was a rough translation of how we usually say "A little bit too far". IDK if you people use that.

And "de nada, che!"... "de nada" is "your welcome!", hehe. "Che" is normally used in Argentina to call someone you either don't know his/her name (informally), to start a sentence (like "ḧey..."), and many other things I should think about xD. My post above that one refers to previous posts .

As I said, I was planning to take both, but I wanted to know if I should take the little one first and leave the big one for a week, which was the time the workers said it would take to finish the rest of the things. I'll be more comfortable myself taking both soon, because they worry me.

I'm writing down the names. I have, myself, amoxicillin with clavulanic acid (co-amoxiclav). I will try first with the vet and with those you people told me. Whatever it is... are those two illnesses similar?

And yes, I though it was really nice of them x3.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Construction company don't run a strict schedule so it may be a couple days earlier or later. I wouldn't wait to get the birds. I would get them as soon as you can. Like yesterday if I were you. I think its really great that you doing this and the construction people, now if only the owner cared. But at least someone does. min


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

wish you good luck with them....


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The diseases are very different, but both can cause emaciation. The vet will be able to tell what it has. These are the medicines for canker available (I hope) in Argentina, doses are for adult homers which on average weigh 400 gms.

Ronidazol Ronidazol: 10 : 10-15 mg mg/paloma/día.
/ Metronidazol Metronidazol: 20 : 20-30 mg mg/paloma/día.
/ Dimetridazol Dimetridazol: 20 : 20-25 mg mg/paloma/día.
/ Preventivo: 1 1-5 días, 15 días antes de entrar en
postura.
Curativo: 7 días.
Palomares infectados medicar una vez por mes,
salvo en postura.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

For such a small babies I'll use Spartrix 1/2 tablet per baby. (Carnidazole)
Ronidazole, Metronidazole, Secnidazole etc. do not have this sefetu margin and they are not good for babies.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

All good advice -------- _but let's remember Paw's situation_ - regarding not much money & maybe knowledgable bird vets and prescription drugs (pronto) are not in the cards. Paw - you can try to find all of those exact medications - but if worse comes to worst - just using the Amoxy and get Fishzole-Metronidazole (at aquarium store) & that'll have to be Ok. lf you can find Spartrix FAST -get some- _*but l wouldn't spend much time searching down meds - more important to get those babies ASAP *_- the small one likely needs meds and food FAST - not much time to lose !


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

The worker wasn't there today. Instead, there was another guy who said they didn't need the birds to go away and that the little one was feeding fine. There was also a taxi driver who said the guys kill me if I took them away xD. So I didn't know what to do and just left. The little bird seemed fine, just smaller than the other one. It was holding its head upright and behaving normally... It didn't seem like down or anything. I will check them on Saturday just in case, and demand an explanation from this other guy o.o


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

What do you mean the guy said they would kill you if you took them away? Who would kill you? Plus you say you were touching the little one, so I assume you got a ladder. Today being monday I WOULD NOT wait until SAT. I won't be able to sleep if you do that. I know its probably a hassle but I would definitely go back tomorrow if not later today. I don't know what time it is there now. I don't know, I know your only trying to help. If they are tearing down the building, I don't know. min


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

He said it like jokingly, it's a common expression to say somebody would be very angry. I thought you used it xP. He said the rest of the drivers who usually go there would.
I wasn't touching him. I checked him as I could without doing so. I stayed watching him for a while, to check for any weird behaviors. I really wanted to get him down, but they were like trying to convince me to do otherwise.
I'll go tomorrow morning, I get out of school early. It's late now :/. Maybe this other guy is there, and I can at least take the little bird to the vet. Maybe this one or the other one was lying, I can't really know. I'm kinda confused there. They're not working on that house, it's on the next one they are doing the job. The situation is a bit strange. I don't want to take them from their mother unless it's necessary, I think it's better for the birds to stay if they can.
They weren't going to tear it down, though. They were going to close a part of it. But that's like that according to the first guy.
Maybe I can take it with the vet "excuse" (which is true). If he says the bird is ok, maybe I can take it back?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. Now I am confused. I thought the situation was, at the end of this week...they are going to remove the nest, right ? if that is the case, then...those babies have to be taken out of the nest because they are too young to survive.

Will they be removing the nest, or no ?

I understand, the worker who you are friendly with wasn't there today. Perhaps you should return before Saturday on a day when the worker you know better is there, and then get the babies. 

It is good news that the smaller one is apparently being fed...but it still is unusual for one to be so dramatically smaller than he other so it still seems that it is in danger.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah. If he has crank, will he have the necrotic tissue in his throat? Or maybe not?
As you can see I've been reading about these illnesses, but I don't know what kind of tests I could run. Like, I could try to handfeed it and see if the bird refuses to eat...?
Maybe I can ask them if I can check on him without taking him. But I'll ask them for permission (I don't NEED to, but I think it'll be better for all of us... usually it's not good for a 16-year-old girl to try to stand up to some older men xD) to take the little one to the vet. If they say no, well, I may have to make up an excuse, like seeing something that it's not actually there.
Is there any way I can *try* to diagnose any of these illnesses without taking them to the vet?
I actually don't know where will that worker be. I was thinking that maybe he only came in the mornings or on weekends. Anyways, I'm going to try tomorrow morning, taking advantage of the fact I get out of school early because I have a big exam. I haven't studied anything, between these pigeons and my headache xD. Right now I'm more concerned about them, lol.

If the bird has salmonella or crank, wouldn't the parents and sibling be in danger too?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Uh. Well, the vet was closed. It opens in 3 hours.
I finally got the workers to give me the little bird! It's amazing what a tight shirt can do xD. I had picked the wrong one the other time .
It doesn't have any kind of growth in its throat, but (s)he is like 1/3 to 1/2 of the size of the sibling :/. Let me get some pics.
The other one seems fine. It's big and looks like about to fly. Fully feather, almost. And if they don't need to take it away... Well, better for all of us.
I checked for the salmonella thingie. They can only sell it to me if a doctor prescribes it, and it's pretty expensive. I may be able to ask my aunt to send me a prescription if the vet doesn't (or can't) prescribe it, but it may take a while since she's in BA.
Anything else I can try?
I haven't checked for the fish thing. I forgot. I will do when I take it to the vet.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Bird:
Bird
Bird Body
Bird Head

Does it still need heating?

Poop:
Poop 1
Poop 2


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Great ! Tell us does the small one seem alert and awake or does he/she seem tired and still ? The vet is the best option, but if you cannot get the bird to vet then using your medications plus the Fishzole/Metronidazole will work if that is the best you can get. We can direct you how. For now, keep him warm.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Also....you say that the bigger one is almost fully feathered and about to fly.

BUT, Paw...even when a baby starts to LOOK LIKE an adult, he/she is not ready to fly and live on her own yet. It takes 42 days after hatching for a young bird to really leave the nest and start surviving. Even once he/she can fly a little...he/she still needs to stay near the nest and start with short little flights....he still is attended and fed by his parents !

So...just the fact that the bird has the ability to start to fly does not mean he/she can survive. She CANNOT. She/he still needs her parents.

So if the bigger baby is going to be younger than 6 weeks old, and the nest is going to be removed...then the big one is still in danger.

Look here:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby-racing-pigeon.htm

Does the big one look older than the 31-day old photo ? If not, then the big one cannot survive on his own if the nest is taken away.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

No, it's not. But they said they didn't need the nest away now. I will drop in once in a while to check, but they said they didn't. The big one looks around 22-25 days. I didn't check much, anyways, I was more concerned about trying to move it because it was sitting on the other bird's head x.x.
Is it normal for the beak to be that dark?
He's pretty still, but when I go really near him he seems nervous. Still, he doesn't move much.
He looks a bit fluffed up, too. And his beak is weird. Like the upper part is smaller than the other one.
I will take him in two hours. Hope he survives.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I left him for a couple of minutes, and when I came back he had pooed on my keyboard .
When I'm next to him and I bother him a bit, like trying to feed him, he tries to escape. Are you sure he's sick? Also he tried to attack my finger... lol.
What concerns me is what he's doing when I'm not there. The only dove I've had tried to escape and ran around the cage :/. But dunno.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

The vet said he didn't know anything about pigeons. He directed me to a guy "who is with pigeons and all". The guy was like the stereotypical crazy ol' man xD. He had the house full of animals . It seemed more like a pet bird store than a house. And there were like ten fat pigeons on the street in front of the house . He said the bird was fine, that all that happened was that the bird is a she and that she was born two days afterwards, so it's normal. I don't know anything about pigeon's life cycle so I don't know, you people tell me. He didn't check in depth though, he just put the bird against his ear and checked I don't know what (breathing? heart beat?).
I bought the Metronidazole anyways, just in case. Should I get her back to the nest or do a just-in-case treatment?
By the way, how do I know if the crop is full? I know where it is and everything, but how do I realize that no more food can come in? I am worried that I may feed her too much and it may explode xD. I know it may sound silly, but bloated birds are no fun.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Paw, I can't answer any of your questions, but I have to tell you that your great to go through all this to help this bird or birds. I laughed when you wrote what a tight shirt will do. Men are so easy aren't they?? I didn't know you were 16 either. Just wanted to say great job, and just ask what ever questions you have and I'm sure Jaye or someone can answer them. Great JOB!!! min


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Lol, it's true, it's a trick I learned from a friend xD. Most men are like that...I guess they can't help it.
Thanks xD. I want to get this bird-caring thing right for once. I've been learning tons of things from this forum!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I put some polenta and cardinal feeding mix (prepared for the birds in the backyard, lol) in the bottom of the cage. It seems she can feed on her own at least a bit. Her crop was full-ish so I have to check when she's hungry . Seems to like pecking the floor, though.
If she can feed enough for her to survive, and I try to avoid contact as much as possible, could she be released eventually?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Has anybody noticed the lack of urea or uric acid (I don't know what birds have, but I guess it's uric acid) in her first droppings? Could that mean something?


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Paw, I can't answer any of your questions but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. Someone will be along that can answer them. I'm new and I'm still learning myself. min


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Naw, I know . You have been kindly answering my posts, even though you didn't know the answers to my questions. I highly doubt anyone is directly ignoring me - they may lack time or they may have not checked this subforum yet. I keep asking while I think about the questions, somebody will eventually answer them, hehe.
It'd be good if somebody told me if I should give the bird antibiotics or not, though.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi (BTW thanks for the visitor message...sounds like you have quite a wardrobe !  ).

1) Her head looks normal to me, nothing odd looking about the beak from the pic you posted.

2) The poos do look odd, again suggesting the possibility that she is not well.

3) If she was notably smaller than her nestmate, then her size is not explianed by simply hatching 1-2 days later. you said the workmen observed that the bigger one was getting most of the food...so....you did the right thing by taking her.

4) That's good that she is pecking at food a little herself. BUT, she is too young to be able to get enough nourishment this way. You will have to start handfeeding her. You can go with a syringe and formula...or...you can go with vegetable-popping peas and corn. This second method is actually a bit safer for someone who has not handfed before. However, the peas and corn would likely need to be cut in half given her small size. I would say start with 5 or 6 peas/corn per feeding, feed 3x/day (only because you do not want to stress her further). As she grows and gains strength, you can increase it to 10-12 piece, 3x/day.

5) YES, she can likely be re-released if she can recover from her situation.

6) I would start the bird on antibiotics if it were in my care. 

You have Metronidazole and Amoxiclav, yes ? 
What is the dosage in each pill (in mg) ?

If you can take a look in her mouth and see if you notice any white or yellow splotches, or if her breath smells foul...that will help determine whether to start her on the Metro. I have e-mailed Feefo...who hopefully will post back with the proper dosages of BOTH medications. I am not 100% sure you can give both medications at the same time....*maybe a Forum member can confirm yes or no ?*

In the meantime, keep her warm and in a quiet spot.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pawbla,

Can you work your way down Jaye's list with answers? If you could weigh the baby also, that would be great. The weight will help us calculate the dosage of any meds but also ensure that she is growing as she should. Getting the dosage right is very important.

While we ponder, if you could also get your hands on some natural yoghurt, you could give her a teaspoon of that , it will help encourage good bacteria for her digestion (when you give antibiotics the probiotics should be given as far away from the antibiotics as posible.

Cynthia


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I would start feeding baby with defrosted pea/corn. Usuall procedure is to place them under hot water until slightly warm and feed youngster 40~50 pieces twice a day. Handfeeding is easy if you wrap him in towel/t-shirt so he can't flap wings. Open his beak gently and pop piece of corn/pea in. Let him swallow and repeat.
Once baby is fed well, then monitor poop. Dark poop may be of starvation. Please check if they (poops) smell. Check his mouth and throat, any smell, any growth?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I am handfeeding her. I never actually found a big syringe, I've tried in many places many times before... I open the beak and get the food there .
Why do they have to be deforsted? Can't they be from the fruit place?
She has pooped smelly at least once. She did a really big pile of poop, and it smelled quite bad. And her normal poops smell a bit, but I didn't know if that would be normal?
No bad smells or growings in her mouth/throat, at least from what I could see.
I have both. Metronidazole is 500mg and Co-Amoxiclav has 500 mg of Amoxicillin and 125mg of Clavulanic Acid, I have one pill and a half.
I don't know where or how to weight it. It can't be on a normal human thing because it's too small. But... I don't know D:. Ideas? I was thinking about where I could get to weight something in grams, but the only places that come to my mind are places where food is sold. I don't think they'll allow me to weigh a bird there.
I could get an approximate by calculating her weight against water. Then I can measure the volume and get an approximate? I don't know. Or I could ask my father, he's good at measuring things.
And natural yoghurt? Which is the difference between it and a normal yoghurt?


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

You want the least amount of sugar possible in the yogurt. So the fruit or flavored yogurt is a no. Your doing a great job. min


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Do you have small syringes to dose the antibiotic?
You could start her on Metronidazole. Mix the pill with 10cc water. If the bird weights around 250 gr (youngsters weigh around that) then give 0.25cc twice a day.
You can also feed corn and lentils and barley.

Reti


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Small, yes. I need to find it, but I do have one.
The whole pill in just 10 cc?
She's around that weight, maybe a bit smaller.
I probably have lentils... And dried corn. Dried corn for sure. I'll have to buy frozen peas or corn anyways, but could anybody explain why do they need to be defrosted and not from the store as normal plants?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Small, yes. I need to find it, but I do have one.
> The whole pill in just 10 cc?
> She's around that weight, maybe a bit smaller.
> I probably have lentils... And dried corn. Dried corn for sure. I'll have to buy frozen peas or corn anyways, but could anybody explain why do they need to be defrosted and not from the store as normal plants?


I think because they are blanched before freezing and they will stay fresh in the freezer and not spoil as raw corn or peas would. and it is easier.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Ahh... Well, I'll buy some tomorrow if I can. Supermarket is a bit far away for me, but I'll ask my mom if possible.
She lays down with one wing separated from her body. I don't know if it's always the same wing, but I think so. But I haven't seen anything weird on it, just that.
She has like sudden accesses of energy and goes tries to escape, and then she lays around like that.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I just saw his pics, what a sweet little guy. He seems pretty healthy. Also offer him seeds he might start eating on his own very soon.

Reti


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Yep, he's started eating. Not much, but something is something, hehe.
So I don't give him the antibiotics?
You people confuse me xD!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If he is well, eating, drinking, playing and gaining weight I don't see any reason to give him antibiotic.

Reti


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

You can use fresh peas - you don't HAVE TO go buy frozen ! You just want to cook them a bit so they are a little soft. l believe you SHOULD give either the Metronidazole or the Amoxyclav - this bird was NOT being fed as much in the nest as her sibling - which often means her parents were noticing something was wrong - and her poops don't look right. She is likely undersized - The Q is do you do the Metro or the Amoxy ? l would start one


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

At that age they like their peas and corn warm.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> You people confuse me xD!



Before, members were just going on a tiny description of the bird in the nest, that has changed.

While there is no sign of canker I wouldn't go destroying the babies natural immunity to trich by giving metronidazole...and *if *it is thriving outside the nest then it is unlikely that its growth was being restricted by salmonellosis.

He will need at least 100 peas or corn a day, I would feed in three meals...watch his poop and general behaviour closely, that is the best indication you will have of overall health. If he needs antibiotics you will soon know.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, I started with the metronidazole, in a smaller dose than what you recommended me, and his poop looks more normal... but watery, now. Lots of water. The actual poop is well formed, looks like a little worm, it has urates and they are bigger now (they were just a bit bigger than the. Just really watery 
I don't think the metronidazole was that fast, though... ?

The overall looks of the bird was one of the things that worried me. Do you know the feeling that the next time you'll look at the bird, it'll be dead? Well, that was happening to me, lol. She is too still. But it may be normal I guess? I mean, she's supposed to be at the nest. It's just not what I got used to with the dove, the only (other?) healthy baby bird I've had. She moved a lot more, but I guess that differs since they're different species?

And well, you actually confuse me because one person says to start on the antibiotics and the other one to avoid it xD. It's ok though, but I'd like to know o.o


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Pawbla, please don't give it any more metronidazole until someone has had another look at the dosage recommended.

Reti (if my calculations are right) the bird is 250 gms and you mix a 500mg pill with 10cc of water, giving 2.5cc twice a day, then you will be giving it 500 mg/kg BID...is this what you intended?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

yikes! too many cooks in the kitchen........ this thread is so confusing! this bird needs a plan if she can not take it to the vet.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I diltued the pill in 12.5 ml, actually, and gave her 2 ml per dose. I'll stop it, though... I gave her a dose today, too :/.
And well, I can't because as far as I know there is no other vet that takes birds in my city. I've been through the guide (for my budgie) and this one was the only one that said he checked birds. But no pigeons, it seems.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

why are u giving him the beds for??
is he sick
cause i read every word that u said and bird seems fine... get him of the beds if he's not showing any signs of any infections or what not.
not every bird from the wild needs the meds , ferals are healthy and all u really needed to get for him is something for lice and thats all.
and its great that u taing care of him and all but i think u are just little over protective.
keep doing what u doing he is going to be fine..
and what u said with one wing out ( when he lays down) thats how pigeons relax


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Reti said:


> Do you have small syringes to dose the antibiotic?
> You could start her on Metronidazole. Mix the pill with 10cc water. If the bird weights around 250 gr (youngsters weigh around that) then give 0.25cc twice a day.
> You can also feed corn and lentils and barley.
> 
> Reti



The dose is 0.25cc x2/day. 
Thanks Cynthia and Pawbla for pointing it out.
Anyways, antibiotics have side effects which tend to be worse in a small baby. I would rather start him on something natural, like ACV, probiotics etc.

Reti


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

yes 2ml, was way to much i hope the baby is okay. 
but i would continue to finish the metronidazole now that you have started it at least 10 days.
it's the same as us humans, we need to finish all of our anti biotics, we cannot stop in the middle this is what causes anti biotic resistant bacteria.
do we have a weight on this baby?? if he is tiny he probably doesn't weigh 250 grams probably closer to 100-150, so you may want to cut that dose in 1/2.
luckily metronidazole is a pretty safe drug with wide dosing wiggle room


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Wow, it was indeed to much then! .25 each dose, then? I hope she's ok. She seems a bit down today :/.
I don't know exactly. I know it's less than 250 gr, though.

What is ACV? And natural yoghurt is fine for the probiotics?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i would hold off on the acv (apple cider vinegar), and probiotics till she is done with her meds. 
never give the acv and yogurt at the same time it will spoil in her crop.
i use a product called bird bene bac, it comes in a powder, you can use a small amount of yogurt, but not alot, birds are lactose intolerant.
i can't tell you how many times i have told someone that was feeding a baby bird milk soaked bread that birds do not have nipples!! lol.
they can only tolerate a small only amount of dairy
i would give her .15 metronidazole 2 times a day, but maybe not till tomorrow night since she had that huge dose, if we are guessing she is about 1/2 the size of a young fully feathered pigeon that should be about right.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah, the problem is that I don't know what can I find in pet stores. When I tried to find baby bird formula once, I went through all pet stores and none of them had it. I can check though.
I don't know who told me about the yoghurt...? But in some post it is suggested as a probiotic.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

check if there is any parakeets breeders around or other parrots im sure they have baby formula


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

yes yogurt can be used for probiotics, just small amounts, i used to use for my baby songbird diet till i changed over to bene bac.
it was about a 1/2teaspoon to 2 1/2 cups of food, a little goes a long ways.
are you able to order anything online??? how about wildlife centers? they must have something they use to feed the baby wild parrots. checking with breeders is a good idea also.
i'm not sure how we could make a home made baby pigeon diet and make sure it's complete, by the time you bought all the ingredients it would probably be cheaper to buy it online.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Uhh... well, situation here is a bit different form the US, and I guess you can't quite get it, but I don't blame you. Especially the kind of city I live in, it's quite different. You can't get everything here. There is not like you're going to find one or two bird breeders, a big pet-shop and everything. I live in a touristic city. So, if some work is not related to turism here, at least a bit, it probably won't work and you'll end up starving. Of course it's not absolute . But most things are like that, sadly :/. So I am unable to get many things (books, plants, for example...) unless I travel.
There are no breeders here, at least none on the internet or guide. I can check today at the pet shop again, but...
No wildlife centers. Just the Aquarium one but it's not actually in my city so I don't know who would take me there. And they are not quite helpful, actually... Unless you have, like, a falcon.
I tried to search online, but no luck so far ):.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

maybe you ought to start a new thread for home made baby pigeon formula, can you get vitamins??


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

maybe you could get some parrot pellets about a cup soak them, add a 1/2 hardboiled egg, and a 1/2 tsp of plain yogurt, blend them all up in a blender.
how are you feeding him? balloon method or tube?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This thread about feeding squabs includes the "Mac Milk Recipe" (post #22) and also some other hints.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682&referrerid=560

If you can get the crumbs that are used to feed chicks when they hatch (chick rearing crumbs) , that makes an excellent formula, you have to soak it in hot (not boiling) water for 30 minutes first. Porridge, made up with hot water rather than milk also makes a good food.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Great. Thanks! I will look for those. I can get vitamins, my mom has some.
She looks better now, her droppings are normal and she's starting to flap her wings if I try to grab her from the cage (like fighting ).


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Approximately how much time would it take for her to be able to be released? Weeks, months?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Great. Thanks! I will look for those. I can get vitamins, my mom has some.


They would be different than the vitamins people take.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

What kind of vitamins would them be? It depends, then, if they are available in my city or not.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Shops that sell birds may have them. But I don't know exactly how much would be for a pigeon. I'm sure someone could figure it out on here though. I buy online from pigeon supplies.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Pawbla ~ a pigeon has to be at least 42 days old (6 weeks) before he/she can be released. 45 days is better, even. So you need to guess how old the bird is now, give or take a few days. Then take into account he/she is undersized, so i would probably add another 3-5 days to the above.

Then you have to do what is called SOFT RELEASE....which is a process which takes about 1 week, approximately 30 minutes needed per day.

You cannot just open the door one day and let the baby fly away...there is no way she would survive.

You should do a search on this website for "soft release". It will help explain the process.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Why are they different from human vitamins? I mean, vitamins are vitamins no matter the source.

From that page about racing pigeons in one of your previous posts, looks 22-ish. More or less. That would make about a month? I was expecting to release her before chirstmas, because I am a bit afraid of her getting stressed over all the people that will be at my home (my family from another city is coming to my house, and they stay for about a week). What could I do to prevent this stress issue?

I read a bit on soft release, but what do I do if there is no "local" flock? I never see more than five pigeons together, I mean. Should I use this month to try to build up one in my yard  ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

As far as vitamins, people need different things and amounts of things than birds need, so their vitamins would be different.
As far as releasing this baby, she needs to be released to a flock. Pigeons can't survive alone in the wild.
Isn't there a quiet room you could keep it in while you have people visiting?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Ah, ok. Are proportions generally different, then?
I haven't really seen any flocks here :/. It's really weird to see more than 5-6 pigeons together. But I guess there is one somewhere. Is there any place pigeons prefer? Downtown, residential areas, etc? Is it possible to attract them here?
And I think no. The quieter room would be my parent's, but they won't allow. Second comes in my sister's, but we will be three people staying there :/. Could I keep it outside (in a cage, in a safe place) during the day? Please note that Christmas = summer for us xD.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

For the first 10-14 days or so keep him/her inside. After that, if she is growing well and seems strong and active, and if the weather is warm....outside would be OK - BUT - make SURE that there is NO way any sort of predator can get near the cage (cats, dogs, hawks, mice, rats, mean people, etc....).

...you are going to have to do some exploring to find a larger flock...20 or so pigeons is much better than just 4 or 5.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She's getting really active... and difficult to feed xD. She moves her wings (like flapping but without opening them), chirps, and tries to bite my fingers when I try to feed her. I guess she doesn't like me a lot, hehe.

I am mostly concerned about mean people. My cousin might kill her... so it's another reason to avoid the "inside" thing. Mice/rats/cats, I can probably prevent all leaving my old bird-proofed dog with her. I completely trust her, she doesn't even care about the bird being there and isn't young enough to be curious about it. The other dogs can't go to that part of the yard, so no worries. Hawks, I highly doubt. I never have them here because I have dogs so they probably don't like them .

Well, on Saturday I will check. Probably in a park or an abandoned building. Most likely the second. In the park, there are many predators :/.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Are you saying your cousin would kill the bird even if he/she knows that you are caring for it? If that is the case, he wouldn't be my cousin anymore. I can't imagine any of my cousins harming any animal that I cared for. Lets hope they get a brain and won't harm the pigeon. min


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She has issues. Like, psychological issues. Apparently she already came "crazy" (she's adopted) and since the time she became part of the family, we have had to deal with her issues (psychologists, lots of them). Her mom (my aunt) is a vet, and he has lots of animals... She loves them (or at leasts it seems like it), but she can't help but hurt them sometimes. It's not like she means it, but I wouldn't let anything smaller than a cat near her. Also she'd stress the bird even if she didn't hurt her. She used to do that with my budgies x.x. She stresses me a lot (it always ends up with me made a handful of nerves) so I can't imagine how hard it would be for a poor bird.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Oh and, how should the keel bone area look? I was reading another topic, and they were talking about it because the bird was really thin. Which is the normal look of it? Because I can see it... clearly. I don't know if that is normal or not.
I don't know how to help it if she's too thin. I never let her crop go empty, but... I don't know.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Post a pic of her chest - as long as you are feeding her well - eventually she should gain weight


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I have problems to handle my camera with just one hand xD. It's a bit heavy. I'll try, though, and I'll post a pic in a minute.

EDIT:
Here:
The chest. Sorry for the blurriness, not enough light.

And as a bonus... the bird yesteday:
One.
Two.

I'm filling her crop 3-4 times a day.
She doesn't understand how to peck . She picks up the seeds/pellets, but she can't understand how to get them to the crop, it seems xD. Is there any way to teach her?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It might be easier for him to pick them up in a little dish. If you take frozen peas and corn, and run warm water over them to defrost them, and warm them up a bit. then put one at a time toward the back of the throat, he will swallow it. Mine seem to learn faster on peas and corn. Soon he would be picking them up on his own. They are easier to pick up then the seed. Then eventually, you can switch him over to seed.
He's very cute.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

i used sit with my baby, when i was weaning him, i used to peck on seeds untill he started to copy me ( they copy their mom) 
s maybe u should do the same thing..
peck on the seeds with your fingers, put the birdie in front of the plate...and he'll copy u.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Thanks ^^
Yeah, she picks them up but she can't get them inside her throat. She picks seeds easier than pellets, because they are smaller... What she can't get to the throat are the bigger seeds (corn for example) and the pellets. But I can try the defrosted ones, since they are softer, maybe it'll be easier.

Is she too thin ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Usually after you hand feed the peas and corn a few times, they learn to pick them up on their own. They 're nice and soft and easy to pick up.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

She doesn't seem too thin to me- hard to tell in a photo - does it seem like she s gaining weight ? BTW - fresh peas slightly cooked until just soft, then allowed to cool - work fine too - but, yes, given her size probably she would not swallow them herself yet. Remember, although she is likely older, she is undersized. So she only appears to be about 2 weeks old physically speaking - and a 2-week old wouldn't be eating on her own yet


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She is getting bigger and thus gaining weight. I'll be buying some tomorrow, then


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She is plenty big enough to pick them up herself. She just needs to be shown. And you get also buy the extra small frozen peas and corn. My birds at this size pick them up readily, once they have been shown that it is food. They usually love the peas and corn.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

But how do I show her how to swallow them? She already knows how to pick them up from the ground. But then she throws them instead of swallowing them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you talking about peas and corn? Or seed? With the defrosted peas and corn, hold the bird on your lap against your body with your left hand, if you are right handed. Then open the beak with your right thumb and index finger. Place the pea or corn toward the back of the throat. He should swallow. If you have a problem holding him, try wrapping him in a hand towel to keep him quiet.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, that's similar to how I hand-feed the bird (the only difference is that I hold him with the same hand I open the beak). He doesn't seem able to reproduce that movement, though, or something like that... he can't do it on his own.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Well, that's similar to how I hand-feed the bird (the only difference is that I hold him with the same hand I open the beak). He doesn't seem able to reproduce that movement, though, or something like that... he can't do it on his own.


Are you talking about seeds? Or peas and corn? Seeds take a while to maneuver. Even the peas and corn take practice, but they seem to learn quicker with them.The more practice, the easier it will become for him. Like riding a bike.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Both. But he picks up small seeds better.
Well, I guess we'll just have to wait then


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Yay! She's doing it with the pellets, now!  A bit, hehe.

She's angry with my feet, she pecks them and flaps her wings at them xd.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Oh, also, I wanted to know if I could band her. I don't think I can find snap-on bands here, but could somebody explain me how do they work? So if I can find a replacement that works similar, I could use it. Which size should it be?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Sudden change in feces! Not well formed, big, and dry. Also she's keeping one eye closed.
Dehydration? I'm giving her water with salt and sugar. She doesn't even want to come out of the cage :/!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Is she drinking the water? She should be by now, if you have taught her. And if not, then she should be having peas and corn hand fed to her, to be sure she gets them. If she isn't drinking yet, then pellets aren't good for her, as she would need more water with them. Dip her beak into the water, without covering her nose, gently push her beak in from the back of her head. She could easily be dehydrated, or she could be sick. FEED HER THE PEAS AND CORN. At least they have some moisture in them. If you don't do something, you are going to lose her.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't know how to teach her, actually... I've been trying with different methods, splashing water, and so, but she doesn't drink ):. I didn't try that one because it seemed a bit too rough.
I'm still hand feeding her, because I don't think she pecks enough to be only on the food she pecks. I'm giving her water with the syringe too... But dunno. I'll try that, and then I'll tell you.
The poops have gotten smaller again and they have some shape. Looks better generally, too. She's just started flying, she flew from my carpet (I really need to remove it while she's out) to my chair.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if you can offer the water in a shot glass it is easier than say a larger dish, dip her beak in it, at some point she will suck the water up from it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have you tried the shot glass, or something like it yet? They catch on to this pretty quickly.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Oh... I'll see if I have one.
She' s drinking a lot (syringe) but her feces stayed like that :/. They got better for a bit but then back.
Today at midday her feces were green! But then they got like before.
I don't quite understand it... what am I doing wrong?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

try using bottled water if you are not already...in a small cup like a shot glass, dip her beak in, you can add Apple cider vinrgar to the water a bit at a time, it may help her stool.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Well formed, greenish dry poops.
Giving her lots of water.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

if they are dark green that's sounds like a good poop to me


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What do you mean by dry. Kind of hard to tell without a picture.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Oh... sorry, I didn't think of posting a pic, for some reason :c.
Anyways, she's fine now. I guess she was just lacking water. When I stopped the antibiotics, she stopped getting water (extra from food) but I never realized she was getting water apart from the food until now, so I didn't gave her because I thought it was enough.

On another note, I saw that the pigeon nest wasn't there. I was so angry! I told them that if they had any problems, they should tell me, because I'd be willing to help. I dropped in to check on the other bird a couple of times, even. But they didn't tell me anything.

But then I remembered that when I went there to take my birdie, one thing I remembered about the other bird is that he "looked ready to fly" because he had feathers under his wings, so it looked like an adult. Considering the floor was still fresh, could he have survived? I got my bird the 17th of November. Is there any chance he was older or better developed? I saw the birds the first time when they were around 15 days, and they looked really similar. But just now my pigeon has started to get her feathers under her wings. That kinda puzzles me xD.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I noticed that hand raised pigeons tend to mature more slowly than pigeons raised by their parents. 

Reti


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

That's really interesting... and something to take into account for the future.
But, in this case, when I picked the girl up she was already less mature than her sibling.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Her droppings are still changing from "normal" brown poops to shapeless, big, dry, poops. She's having water on her own and by syringe.


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