# Diabetic Pigeons?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

One of my PPMV survivor rescues may have Diabetic Ketoacidosis.


Their breath smells like Acetone.


Anyone have any experience in treating this?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Not in pigeons I'm afraid


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Phil, have you had a diagnosis of Diabetes for the pigeon - urine tested? Any poop pics?

With some of the PMV survivors, I've observed that the effect on the kidneys can be (apparently) permanent, resulting in periodic (very) watery excretions and the thirst I'd seen in active PMV.

I believe that Diabetes is not common in pigeons and the complication you mention rarely recorded in any birds.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Any way you can do an accucheck? If you have a friend with diabetes they should have a meter to measure the blood sugar levels. 
It is indeed uncommon for pigeons to be diabetic, more common in parrots.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, I have a highflyer that is a diabetic bird (vet diagnosed), he has diabetes insipidus. The vet prescribed a med called Desmopressin for him and it helped with his very loose droppings, but the down side was he needed twice a day dosing, and most likely for the rest of his life. Although my coop is not huge it stressed him with me having to catch him twice a day to dose him, this was a few years back, and when the med ran out I just did not re-fill it. His droppings look basically like a PPMV bird, but outside of that he is perfectly normal in heath, condition, disposition and all other observable aspects.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

He had seemed to have some Candida, and we treated for that, and, at that time, as well as since, his droppings are pretty normal looking, not 'loose' or wet.


About a month ago, he developed a sort of very rapid Head Shake, where his Head was kind of vibrating, and, with this, he could not any longer self feed.

Been doing Seed-Pops since.


At some point, I noticed the Acetone odor of his Breath.


Have not had a diagnosis from a Vet...


I have no diabetic acquaintances.


Head vibrating for a while there was 24/7 and no stopping at any time.


Now, it is much less pronounced, and intermittent ( thankfully! )...or even absent entirely for periods.

He is a surprisingly happy Bird, and very enthusiastic about the Seed-Pop times, very co-operative and affectionate.

No lethargy or sleepyness or weakness, he is quite strong in fact, preens actively, drinks on is own.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The head tremors are something I've seen pretty often in PMV, usually one of the earliest symptoms. Also what I call 'jumping eyes', where the pupils move around all over the place.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Reti said:


> Any way you can do an accucheck? If you have a friend with diabetes they should have a meter to measure the blood sugar levels.
> It is indeed uncommon for pigeons to be diabetic, more common in parrots.


I don't know if a meter would work on bird blood, and what is the normal blood sugar of a pigeon, any one know?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pigeonmama said:


> I don't know if a meter would work on bird blood, and what is the normal blood sugar of a pigeon, any one know?


I had a look in the desk reference I have and the normal glucose (mg/dL) level in pigeons is 232-269.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, in humans, the doctors use a term called post viral symptoms, which basically is their way of saying, after a viral infection, a number of new symptoms presents that they really don't have a clue as to the exact cause or just how to fix them. I imagine the same can occur in the animal world, were the virus has caused neurological mischief that may take time to work out. They may stay the same, improve some or clear up entirely in time, with no real treatment other than giving the body time to come back to equilibrium the best it can, and providing of course, good nutritional support.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think I got this Pigeon early in the year.

They were a fairly typical if mild neurological PPMV condition, managed alright with self feeding, sometimes having me steady their Head with them standing on my lap, them on a towel, against the 'Star Gazing' aspect.


Time went on, eventually them into the free rove, free fly, where they kept to themselves, though managed alright.


Then, some time ago, in checking on them as I do, I realized they were not eating enough, so I set them into a Cage so they wouold be able to eat alone if they liked, which, they in fact appreciated, and all seemed well enough.

Then, began this Head 'vibrating' thing.


This was more than the fine tremors one sometimes sees, in fact it was horrific to watch.


If any of you have ever seen the by-now older film 'Jacob's Ladder', when the main character is seeing occasional people sort of shake-their-head, but they do so protractedly, and so fast it is a literal blurr, that is what this Pigeon was doing.

So, the motion was larger than the fine palsy or tremor one sometimes sees, larger back-and-forth motion or range, but also, so fast it was a blurr.


I could hold them and steady their Head in a way which would constrain it, but, could not stop it...it went on for many days, weeks I supose...without stop

Around then, they could not longer self feed, and, we began daily occasions of Seed-Pops.


Thank goodness THAT 'vibrating' phase has passed, and now they have more of a mild wobbly aspect and no 'vibrating' or extreme tremor or palsy 'blurring'.


Up untill the Seed-Pop time, they had always been very distrustful and even terrified of me, so I had never interacted with them much, since it made them so uncomfortable.


Once we began the Seed-Pops, he or she changed in that regard, and became very friendly, very appreciative, calm, and welcomes occasions of being held or cuddled and having Back and Shoulder Massages.


I think the Back and Shoulder Massages may well have helped them get through that 'vibrating' Head phase, also.


I can not smell any Acetone to-day, but, yesterday I still could.


If it resumes or is still present enough to detect come Monday or any time soon, I will bring them to the Vet and see what he thinks on the matter.


I did treat for Candida for a while, but now that I am looking closely at their Cage poops, I am seeing that the suggestion is returned in how the fecal portion has a greyish white film and slight netty aspect of that film also.

So, maybe I should do another course of the Medistatin, and, this time have it go ten days or twelve or even fourteen.




The only other time I ever had a Pigeon with Acetone Breath, this was some years ago, and I think I did have to do several Medistatin courses, finally doing them two week periods, and we got it to resolve, and it has not ruturned ( that Pigeon still lives here so I can check him any time, which I in fact do. )


I just tried treating it that way with him, having once heard or read that there are forms of Yeast which produce Acetone, even as other forms of Yeast produce Ethyl or Methyl Alcohol.

I did not know about Diabetic Ketonosis then, or I might not have tried the Medistatin.


So, my thought is to maybe resume the Medistatin, and do a two week stint, and see if that puts and end to the ( now possibly abated anyway of ) Acetone Breath, and, also, to the netty and greyish white 'film' I am seeing on the fecal component of their poops...on the hypothesis that this may be from a form of Yeast infection, rather than it being a diabetic related condition.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, the Medistatin sounds like a good idea, and since it does not get absorbed systemically, you could keep them on it for an extended period of time, with no real worries I can think of to the down side.

Might want to try some vitamin B12, very good for the nervous system and maybe pick up some Cal-Mag pills, at the health food store, and give them a piece of pill each day, or every second day , both of these are important in nerve tone and health as well (with the Cal-Mag about a 20mg piece and with the B12 about 100mcg, you can dissolve a 1000mcg tab into 10mL of water and give 1mL)

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I know I did give them added Calcium-complex in tube feeding, we'd do the Tube, then to Seed-Pops. 


This was a very good liquid product I got at the Health Food Store, lots of Trace elements from the Sea, and Calcium and related compounds in a supposedly easily assimilable form...


I also supplimented Vitamin A.


It did not help the 'Vibrating Head' issue.

Darn it, now I can not remember if I did anything with B-12 or B-Complex or not...you'd think I would have, Lol...so thanks for the mention/reminder, I will just go ahead and do the B-Complex supplimenting now just on general principles for this Bird and for some others also.


Actually, I think I did have it in the formula...had this PPMV survivor one and another who while not showing any symptoms per-se, another one who sort of forgot how to peck or lost the fine co-ordination thing for a while for getting the Seeds successfully, so I was Tube feeding and Seed-Popping both of them ( and another one also, for that matter ).


I will resume the B-Vitamins though for them and everyone else also.



I usually do this with the common Waterers here once a week or so, 'Red Cell', and extra B-Vitamin complex.


So, far as prior history oes, no one ought to have been short other than that maybe the PPMV survivor ones use it up faster or have a higher need for it, which they probably do.


I think I also have a higher than usual need for B-Vitamins myself.




I will go ahead and get the 'Cal-Mag' pills and do that...sounds very convenient for occasions of not Tube-Feeding, being able to just 'pop' it in.



Thabnks Karyn!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

pigeonmama said:


> I don't know if a meter would work on bird blood, and what is the normal blood sugar of a pigeon, any one know?



I don't see why it wouldn't work. You can take a drop of blood from cutting a bit from the nail. I've seen my vet do it.

Reti


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