# Need Advice on baby bird



## Guest (May 10, 2004)

i have a pair of pigeons (and they had eggs) these two hatched. Now the mother is starving the 2nd chick because the 1st is sooo fat it can't eat any more. What should I do with the 2nd chick????


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## pigeoncare (Apr 8, 2004)

There is always the possibility that the parents know something is wrong with the smaller chick and when that happens, they intentionally stop feeding. Pigeons as with any other animal, will not feed a sick offspring.
If you know how to tube feed, you might want to remove the chick and try it but I think in most cases and as sad as it is for you, mother usually knows best.


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## Guest (May 10, 2004)

I can see where u r coming from but to me it is the fact that this is her 1st time haveing offspring live past 4 days (she had 1 chick and it starved) so i think that she just doesn't know what to do


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## tessamess (May 6, 2004)

There's a post a few down from yours about pix of feeding baby pigeons..and talks about rigging sandwich bag to feed young babies. I did something like that, except with the thumb of a glove. It really works well, the pigeon sticks his head in instinctively and just gobbles up the food. Maybe if there's nothing wrong with the baby it might benefit?
Hope everything works out.


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

We have seen parents screw up, especially early in their breeding career. If you feel this is the case then you may decide to take over even with the possible scenario that Fred outlined.

You can feed with baby bird formula, human baby food, or dry dog food soaked to the propper consistency (or a mixture of the above). If the baby is in the first 10 days then you could mix the food thinly (use warm water). Thicken it with time and give about 120 cc in four feedings, though for the first 7 days the feeding may be every two hours and smaller. When the chiclk is full, the crop will be full but soft like a bean bag (the crop is at the base of the neck when the bird is sitting). The feeding may be done with a small spoon, a plastic syringe, a tube plus syringe, or a plastic glove with a small hole cut in a finger that the chick hooks up to. As the youngster gets bigger you can add some seeds to spoon feeding which is messy but effective to ween the youngster toward self feeding. At some point it may be less dramatic to wrap the bird gently in a towel before feeding. The chick can placed in a safe, warm, soft place; a towel over a heating pad set on low is one such option.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If one chick seems to starve and the other thrives then there is a strong possibility that the parents are carriers of paratyphoid.

Baytril will act on this but it will retard bone growth in squabs so you might have to wait until the strongerr baby is fully grown then treat them all.

Alea had a situation like this, she managed to pull baby Ali through with Terry's help. As at least one of those posts is locked and cannot be bumped up I will ask Terry and also Helen to look at this thread.

Thank you for your advice Dano and to all of you who are prepared to protect the lives of vulnerable creatures.

My personal view is that it is unacceptable to leave any bird to die without even attempting to help it or even to find out what is wrong. I have seen similar recommendations on this site for pigeons with PMV and paratyphoid...Fortunately I have seen the balance adjusted by people like Alea and Stacey who are prepared to fight the odds for these poor creatures, and gain them a good quality of life.

We can't win them all but we can certainly give it a good try!

Cynthia

------------------
_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_



[This message has been edited by cyro51 (edited May 11, 2004).]


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Sounds suspiciously like paratyphoid if this is not the first time it has happened.
Really busy right now and could do with getting Alea's thread up - let's see if we can do it or ask Carl if he can unlock it?
Cynthia is right, baby needs Baytril - but also serious nursing care. Not for the novice at this age. Will go and see if I can bump up a post.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

They are locked - Can you do a search on this site and type in the search word Alea. Hit the search button then pick out these threads - No Idea what I'm doing - please help. Hi it's Alea with the two babies again, Alea's new thread and pic, Alea, Ali and Bert cont. Alea, Ali and Bert new thread. You should gain enough info from these to decide which way to go. Hope this helps.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Helen. I also tried to bump up the posts. The trouble is that they start with sourcrop and go on from there. Terry was very involved in that one so I have asked her to have a look, but I will also write to Alea so she can summarise what she did because it might not all be recorded in the posts.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have copied relevant posts from one thread for you to read. They cover the main points. The pigeon being discussed started with a slow crop for which Nyastatin was used and was about 12 days old, so we will need to establish the correct Baytril dose. Please let us know how old the baby is! Do you have any Baytril or can you get your hands on some? Otherwise we can probably help out but there would be an unfortunate delay which I would much rather avoid.

These were the posts:

_Hi Alea, 
I just had a quick e-mail from Helen (Nooti). She is a member here and a very experienced rehabber. She suggests going back on the Baytril right away and continue for weeks if necessary. If you are running out of Baytril, please privately e-mail me your snail mail address, so I can send you some more. 
Terry

Hi Alea
Can you tell me - does the food in the crop go doughy? In other words does it feel as though the liquid content of what you are feeding is being digested, but the food content isn't? If this is so then this will probably be paratyphoid and the babe will need some very intensive nursing if it is to live.
If it is paratyphoid, the trick is to keep giving fluids every so often until the food has been digested. So you may only give formula once or twice a day but you may find that you have to give fluids every hour. If you don't do this the bird will become dehydrated and die of organ failure. You may even have to get up during the night to do this. Continue to give Baytril at the same time and keep the bird warm 
Hope this helps.

Helen

The Baytril is being given at approximately 5 mg twice per day (1/4 tab of the 22.7 mg tablets). I don't have anymore of these so am sending Alea 68 mg tablets to be dissolved in 13 cc/ml distilled water to approximate the same dose in 1 cc/ml. I have advised her that you may suggest more or less and how to calculate how much solution to give. Nystatin is being given at 0.5 cc/ml once per day. 
Terry

That's quite a high dose - but necessary I think............ No I don't think I would object to that if it was my bird. The trick now is to maintain that strength in the system for as long as it takes.

Helen

Thanks again, Helen. How do we know when to stop the Baytril? I've sent Alea enough for about another 4 weeks. Also should she be keeping the little one on thin'ish formula or go with soaked puppy chow or try to get the youngster on seeds? Terry

Well if it is paratyphoid then dehydration is something you will be fighting so any form of 'dry' food is a no-no. Thin formula is better as the intention is to keep fluid intake to the maximum.
As to how long to continue Baytril - well at least two more weeks then reassess.
Reassessment is easier if the bird is weighed on a daily basis as much info can be gained just by looking at a daily chart.
Helen

Thanks again, Helen! Alea, I know you'll read thru all of the posts when you get here next time .. anyway, it's thin formula, Baytril, and Nystatin if you want for the time being. No probiotics until we are thru with the Baytril. Be sure to watch for dehydration as Helen has posted. Do you have a scale that can weigh in grams or at least ounces? If so you want to start weighing Ali everyday at about the same time and before feeding (crop should be as empty as possible). Keep a record of the daily weights. I believe that Walmart sells a nice kitchen scale called Good Cook or something to that effect at a pretty reasonable price. It weighs in grams or ounces and has a tare feature which makes things a lot easier. If you don't have a scale then maybe that can be just a little extra early Valentine's for you. I'm sure your significant other is probably about ready to run at this point <LOL>! 
Terry_



[This message has been edited by cyro51 (edited May 11, 2004).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

"My personal view is that it is unacceptable to leave any bird to die without even attempting to help it or even to find out what is wrong. I have seen similar recommendations on this site for pigeons with PMV and paratyphoid...Fortunately I have seen the balance adjusted by people like Alea and Stacey who are prepared to fight the odds for these poor creatures, and gain them a good quality of life."

*****

I recently adopted a beautiful little 'Jacobin' pigeon that had been cast to streets by the previous owner, assumingly because he saw the beginnings of unusual behavior.

This pigeon was mute for over a week after he was placed in my care. He is now beginning to coo as well as the rest of my babies, comes to his door when I enter the room & has more love to offer than most humans.

It is suspected this is a 'PMV' pigeon. Other than the usual PMV spasms, 'Pij' is doing wonderfully. He eats, drinks & 'poops' like a trooper. He has even begun to preen.

*****

"We can't win them all but we can certainly give it a good try!"

Agreed 100% Cynthia.
"If we don't try, we have failed"
"If we try & fail, we have succeeded"

Side Note:
'Pij' was rescued in Dec. 2003. The rescuer never gave up on him, rather gave him the chance he deserved. I will never give up on him, rather will offer the best life possible, however long that may be.
Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Pij is so lucky to have found you, Cindy! In so many cases just the mention of the word PMV condemns pigeons like him to death, when there is really no call for that.

Cynthia


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hey Keys! How are things? 
Absolutely try feeding him if you haven't already. Maybe just a bit of water first, though. I for one, think it's time for intervention. I think getting the Baytril should be priority 1 after that. It doesn't hurt to try as far as I'm concerned. 
I will await an update, and am here to help if I can.
Alea


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
Good to hear from you again. I never got back to tell you what a wonderful job you did saving the paratyphoid baby. I've been quite ill for sometime with two unrelated problems which hit me back to back so to speak.
Well done! That is not a job that has any guarantee of success but you pulled it off!
I gotta admire you for determination and congrats for your efforts!


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## Guest (May 11, 2004)

Well I'd like to Say THANK YOU for helping me, cause this is my first time even seeing a baby bird so it is a little difficult. lol. I tryed the feeding method with the baggie and it worked like a charm the ckick dive in there and gordged himself.(even the 1st chick wants some) it seem to really like the Baytril, but if you're starving anything tastes good i guess.
I love how you all will never give up on any animal. it's about time cause i'm like the person in my city who is not afaird to take in any animal, bird or even lizard. some people think i'm crazy for taking in 2 pigeons (Keys and Eyegone my babies) but i don't care what they think. It was because of my neibor the reason why i got Keys first (He shot him) So i got my mother's and Father's permision in taking him in(June 2003) Then I got my 2nd pigeon in September (She had a broken leg) she healed and i set her free. THen I got Eyegone she was attact by a cat and is miss almost half the side of her head, but that doesn't slow her down. She's the fistyest thing I ever meet.lol. But i love her all the same (even though she can be a beep..)







then Keys and Eyegone layed their eggs (these two are her 9th&10th really hard to believe but true) I didn't really want them to keep laying eggs but i could never ever bring myself to break them.


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hey Keys and Nooti!
First, Nooti, if you haven't already, see pics under General Discussions "New Bert and Ali pics from Alea".... He's a big bird now,... (sigh) 
Thanks for the kudos,... you helped immeasurably, so the congrats we can share.

Keys,
I just want to make sure you have dosages correct and all,.. this thread is fairly bare (pardon the pun) for you to have gotten all the necessary info. I assume that you are e mailing others privately and/or reading quite extensively???
If I am correct in this, I wish you luck. 
Still, one bit of advice I have found to be helpful (thanks to Nooti and the others):
In addition to the feedings, just a bit of water/pedialyte in between feedings seemed to really aid in digestion while waiting for the Baytril to do it's thing. Even after the Baytril took effect I think it was quite helpful. Please do keep posting progress reports and questions should you have any. My prayers are with you and the baby. 
p.s.
I named Ali after the boxer... a tough name might help.
p.p.s. Get some fake eggs!!!LOL!!!
Alea


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## Guest (May 11, 2004)

Hi this is the Mother( Robin ) of the teen girl who posted here. I hope that she was not missunderstood . keys and eyegone's first six eggs must not have been good because after sitting on them for a while they would roll them out of the nest and break them the 8th egg hatched and only lived 3 days. These chicks are doing well yes one is quite a bit larger that the other and THANKS to the loving people on this site I prey the smaller chick will be ok the baggie method worked great. My daughter Hilary is quite dedicated to caring for the feral pigeons, dispite the fact that she gets teased about it at school. There was no books at our libary about pigeons so we ordered one at the book store. And now that we know about this site Life is Good. My neighbor is not to happy about it he was the fool that shot keys in the wing last June he can fly a bit but not for long he wouldn't survive so he is stuck with us, we love him alot . We will keep you posted on the chicks! Thank you SOOO Much for all your help


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Robin & Hilary,

I'm so glad to hear things are working out so well for all of you.

Hilary you are a treasure. Anytime you have any question or concerns please don't hesitate to post them. We have members located throughout the world so there is usually someone available.

We look forward to an update on your two sweet pijjies.
Cindy


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello Robin and Hilary!
All sounds well, but PLEASE post questions here if you have any. I have only been a pigeon owner myself for about 5 months, but have found this site and those who frequent it such a wealth of information that I am constantly amazed. 
All the best!
Alea (and Bert and Ali)

[This message has been edited by alea (edited May 11, 2004).]


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## pigeoncare (Apr 8, 2004)

Robin,
Thank you for your follow up post on behalf of yourself and Hilary. You are very decent, caring people.
I don't claim to know exactly why one baby is smaller than the other. Many times it is a salmonella infection but not always. Baby birds can be born with internal defects of all sorts including pulmonary and cardiac deficiencies and the lack of adequate amounts of oxygen can inhibit growth dramatically. Baby birds have a very high mortality rate for reasons like that.
You have nothing to lose by trying to rear this bird. What I'm concerned about is if you don't have success. Please do not feel it is anything you have done. If he doesn't make it, it was not meant to be. You have entered the area of bird rescue and rehabilitation and have to be prepared for losses. 
If the bird does make it, you will have a tiger by the tail. Baby pigeons saved and raised by people will not have learned the foraging skills necessary for survival out there. They will not be able to learn from a flock when to flee from danger. Birds raised and then released by people generally do not have a high survival rate unless they are reintegrated into a captive flock and spend months with it. That is called a soft release and it is the only way to give them a fighting chance in the streets.
Just to give one example, this weekend, I finally managed to capture a purebreed male, adult pigeon that had been floating around my area for about two weeks. Even though he stayed near a flock, he was afraid to join it. This bird was becoming progressivly weaker to the point that he no longer had the strength to fly. He was raised in a coop and so there were no social or foraging skills there for coping with the outside world and this is an adult.
Frankly, if you have the space, this bird is better off being a family pet so hopefully, if all goes well, you might want to consider that.
Good luck with this baby. We are all rooting for him.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Robin and Hilary,

It is excellent news that the baggie method is working and the weaker baby is eating well. 

Please don't be squeamish about replacing newly laid eggs with plastic ones...at that stage there is no life "sparked" within the egg and the outcome for the eggs that remain in the nest does not seem good at all! The pigeons accept a plastic replacement egg quite happily and will look after it for two to three weeks and then just shrug their wings when it doesn't hatch. 

I have to use that method all the time as I have over 30 rescue pigeons and would have hundreds if I had not controlled the egg production.

Cynthia


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