# Sick Pigeon, Not Able To Use Legs.



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, Just brought home a pigeon today that doesn't seem to have any use in it's legs.

It was lying in an outside cage and his breathing rate was very fast. That seems to have slowed down now he's in the warm. When I picked him up he had good use of it's wings but no control over his legs. I asked if I could bring him home to clean him up and warm him up as it's freezing here at present.
He was totally caked in foul smelling poops, so had been like it for a couple of days I would guess.
He's a good weight, 375gms and isn't obviously starved.

I have given him a good bath this evening and cleaned away as much of the poop as I can.

When I had held him in the water to bathe, he was kicking his legs so there is some use but if put down he just lies flat and uses his wings to try to get away.

I have checked them over basically but am not sure what to look out for as far as breaks go. I don't feel any obvious breaks, but wasn't sure how to tell if there was a break further up.
He has lost some tail feathers but apart from the legs I can't see any other injuries.

Any ideas what I can look for to give me a clue as to what is wrong please?

Janet


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Don't suppose you know if it's a male or female? Sounds like a calcium issue to me and this happens to hens when they get egg bound.
I'm certainly no expert and not the one to be answering you, but that's just some ideas.........good luck.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> Don't suppose you know if it's a male or female? Sounds like a calcium issue to me and this happens to hens when they get egg bound.
> I'm certainly no expert and not the one to be answering you, but that's just some ideas.........good luck.


Well I haven't had much luck in telling if any bird I've come across is male or female before but it is quite small compare to a couple of others I've got inside at the moment if that means anything.
I don't know how to tell if a bird is egg bound though, what would that look like?

I've just posted a couple of photos I took before I cleaned 'it' up. (apologise for the messy picture). I wonder if that shows anything that would say whether she was eggbound.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I can't tell from the picture. She (if it's a she) could be getting ready to lay an egg and isn't actually egg bound, but the egg could be laying against the nerve (there's a name, but I forget what it is) and that can cause them to loose function of thier legs. These are things that I've never actually seen, but I've been hanging around PT for so long........I just learned this stuff. Is she passing droppings? What do they look like? Poor baby looks a mess. I'm glad you've got her with you. 
Hopefully someone who knows what they're talking about will be along shortly.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks for that Renee anyway.
There is something at the end of the keel bone which is showing slightly in the picture, maybe just normal but I did notice it when I bathed her. (See you got me calling it she now)!

I'll perhaps take another picture tomorrow now she's clean and see what anyone thinks. She's lying down now in the airing cupboard so I won't disturb her again tonight.

Her poops are foul in answer to your question.

Janet


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OK. I forget that everyone isn't on the same time zone.......LOL.....hope "she"  makes it ok.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> OK. I forget that everyone isn't on the same time zone.......LOL.....hope "she"  makes it ok.


Cheers Renee,

I'll have to give up tonight, past my bedtime. Will check back in tomorrow if she's still ok in the morning.

Night, night.


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi Janet,

I haven't got any experience with egg bound pigeons, but I have had several similar incidents with one of my cockatiels. If you would use thumb and index finger and then palpate the tail bit (including the vent area) gently and carefully, then you might feel something "solid". I could feel it, and even see a little "hump" on the back of the root of the tail opposite the vent. Don't know whether this works for pigeons as well...

Have you thought of a PMV-1 infection? Again, I have never seen a bird with one, but first foul smelling watery poops and later central nervous signs like loss of coordination and paralysis of legs???

I hope that your poor little birdi is better soon!!! Good luck!

Stephan.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Just walked past the cupboard where her box is and she was very agitated and banging about in the box.
I have got her on my lap at the moment dripping rehydration fluid on her beak and she is so quiet compared to earlier and has one eye closed.
I have a feeling she is very sick as opposed to having broken bones now.
Another thing I notice is she isn't extending her neck at all if that makes sense.

I was trying to feel her abdomen and when I touch a certain spot she does kick her legs but she has no strength in them to stand.

She seems very sick now, I don't know what to do for her other than keep her warm overnight and hope for the best.

Janet


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

amyable said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just walked past the cupboard where her box is and she was very agitated and banging about in the box.
> I have got her on my lap at the moment dripping rehydration fluid on her beak and she is so quiet compared to earlier and has one eye closed.
> ...


Hey, I thought you were gone to bed! I don't know what to think either. Probably not much that you can do tonight. Try to get some sleep and check out things in the morning.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just looking at the picture, I'd tend to say that she's been that way for quite awhile. I'd tend to think that there might be an internal infection, possibly to do with the kidneys. I'd probably treat with Baytril and Metronidazole initially but she could certainly be on her way out now. When they look like that (the back end) I just about always start antibiotic treatment immediately--one of those deals where you jump first and ask questions in the air.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Just looking at the picture, I'd tend to say that she's been that way for quite awhile. I'd tend to think that there might be an internal infection, possibly to do with the kidneys. I'd probably treat with Baytril and Metronidazole initially but she could certainly be on her way out now. When they look like that (the back end) you just about always start antibiotic treatment immediately--one of those deals where you jump first and ask questions in the air.
> 
> Pidgey


I would do the same.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

How sad, Janet. Where did this pigeon come from that it had been left without care for long enough to get in that condition? Since you said it was in a cage, I ASSume somebody had the bird .. terrible to not even notice all that dried poop and the poor condition of the bird.

I pretty much ditto the advice already given and wish you good luck with the bird. Please do keep us posted.

Terry


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Thanks for input.

She is still with me this morning, gave us a sleepless night though. I took her upstairs as the dogs could hear her as she was making an almighty row every so often bashing about in the box. I'd put her in a spare room but the noise still got woke us. (Hubby not a happy bunny !).

Terry, I found her at the 'sanctuary' where I found all my other rescues. I've moaned about this place before. They don't give any treatment if a bird comes in, they just put it in a cage and see if it makes it. Yesterday was my first visit this year as it was closed for three weeks over Xmas with only a couple of staff, so when I asked someone her history, no-one actually knew.

Still terribly smelly poops, I'm dripping water on her beak, she isn't trying to drink herself although when I was rinsing her last night, she did take a drink of that water.

I wondered if I should give her some Poly Aid food supplement, to keep her propped up for a while until I see how she does.

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

Try to tube rehydrating solution regularly, every time she poops for a start.

I agree about the antibiotics, both Metronidazole and Baytril can be given once a day, so at the other end of the day I give probiotics. I have used that approach successfully for projectile diarrhoea and bloody poops. Also, if you have it, give Argenitum Nit, 3 doses of one pilule every three hours.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Sorry I've gone blank, is Metronidazole an equivalent to something else here? I see it's called Flagyl but I'm not sure I have that.

I just gave her an Arsen Alb, I was torn whether to give that or Argent nit.
I have that so I'll use that next dose.

What do you think about Poly Aid yet? Is it better to try and get the diarrhoea under control first?

Thanks,

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I can send you some Metronidazole. It will need refrigerating.

I would stick to rehydrating fluids for 24 hours, then give Poly Aid if it is not eating on its own.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The metronidazole is in the post.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Just been out a couple of hours and so far no more poops. Just lying down flat with this spasmodic flapping, but no worse than yesterday which is comforting.

Thank you so much for the meds, I checked my boxes of tricks and that's something I don't recall ever having so do appreciate that.

What's the dosage for that?

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I still use the "old" dosage of 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days. The 14 days is maximum, I haven't needed to give it for more than 10 days.

I have written it on the tubes, but it is 500mg per 100 ml, I make that 5mg per 1 ml. 

BTW I sent it in 2 tubes, use only one of them so that you can use the same syringe. If the first tube runs out then use the second one to top it up.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia, Thanks, the meds arrived this morning,

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Pigeon was doing better this morning and probably due to not having ate for a day, there were no poops all day.

I decided to show her some seeds before using Poly Aid to see how she responded.
She dived into the dish literally and ate quite well, also had a drink on her own too.
I have to hold her up for her to eat as she can't support herself on her legs. All the time she is eating, she flaps her wings rotating them in a forward motion. She is constantly trying to fly. I put her down to see what she could do, and she has no use in her legs, especially the right one which drags behind her. Yet if I touch her stomach, she kicks them quite hard.
I don't know what's actually wrong with them.
Another thing that's changed now is she is extending her neck and holding her head in a more normal position than yesterday, when she had her head pulled in flat in line with her body, if that makes sense.

I've just been to feed her again and she has pooped dark green slime all over the box and now doesn't seem interested in the seeds or drink again. I've just given her rehydrating water by syringe.

Should I still try and feed her even though she's still not right as the poops look like starvation poops now?

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

How much poop is she passing? Slimy green poops can also be a sign of enteritis, the food is pushed through an irritated bowel faster than a healthy one and there is a higher proportion of bile which is what colours the "starvation " poops.

Do you have any noroclav or Co-trim I haven't been able to get my hands on Co-trim for years). They are better than Baytril for enteritis and you can give concurrently with Baytril if you suspect salmonellosis.

Keep up the rehydration, but as he has already eaten hold back the Poly Aid. The vets always say that if you feed a dog with a stomach infection you are just feeding the bacteria. Their regime for dogs with diarrhoea nowadays is to try probiotics before resorting to antibiotics, by encouraging the growth of good bacteria you are helping block the "bad" bacteria out.

Does she flap her wings and try to fly when she is not eating?

You might have to make a cradle for her...Hallswood say they use an adapted, padded margarine tub suspended from the top of the cage with food and water within reach of the beak.


Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

She's trying to fly all the time, when she first came she was quietly sitting on my lap but now as soon as I've got her she's just fighting to get off my lap. Wrapping her in a towel hasn't worked either. When I put her back in her box and keep her in the dark, all I can hear is her flapping her wings against the box. I keep her in the dark in the hope she'll calm down. I've just given her some Ignatia. She is very difficult !

She has pooped again although she hasn't eaten at all even if I show her the seeds, she hasn't tried. I can feel she's getting thinner already.

I have six noroclav, do you suggest changing her to that and Flagyl as opposed to Baytril? or all three?

Do I give probiotics with the anti-biotics?

Sorry about all the questions. Just not sure what I should do for her.

I am about to have visitors for lunch, so it will be difficult to get back on here until this evening. I'm going to give her some fluids now and will report back later.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

This evening she has passed a more black poop but there was some white urate this time.

She is taking a lot of fluid, just gulps it from the syringe none stop.
After taking a syringe full she is pulling her head right back and sticking her chest out. Seems a bit odd.

One good thing she was calmer on my lap this time and only flapped when she wanted to pass the poop. Maybe she flaps due to some discomfort inside.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I don't know if there is anything I can do to help this little one tonight.

She has just taken a sudden turn for the worse after being quite alert a couple of hours ago. She has just done a very dark green slimey poop and keeps kicking her legs about. Her poops had improved over the last day so I had started to give her a bit of Poly Aid as she hasn't tried to eat herself.
She is lying down with her eyes shut and breathing is very shallow, like short puffs through her mouth.

I have put on some heat and dripped some rehydration liquid along her beak as she has been drinking a lot over the last few days.

Is there anything else I should be thinking of to help?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Is there a vet you can take her to to get an exray and exam?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I'm not sure if she'll make it through the night at the moment. She does open her eyes when I go in to see her, but seems very weak and is mainly keeping her eyes shut.

She is holding her neck back with her head up if that indicates any particular problem.

It was such a sudden change as this afternoon I had her in my hands and she was 'flying' as strong as ever. I even thought there was a bit of strength in one of her legs as she pushed against my hand.
I'm not sure vet would do much for her if they saw her. The only one I have that sees pigeons doesn't do tests etc for them, just basic help. I was hoping just some TLC would overcome her poop problem and then maybe once eating again, something might have improved with her legs.

I just wasn't sure if I should be even offering her water if her breathing's weak.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I just wanted some advice please if anyone can help.

She made it through the night and gradually during the day she has become more alert again and stopped breathing through her mouth.

She is on Baytril and Flagyl. She still is passing very runny green poops, though not like tar today. She ate a few seeds on Saturday, but nothing since except 3ml of PolyAid last night by syringe.
This was the last thing she had before going down hill last night. She struggles very badly when syringe fed, so I am loath to keep trying this method of feeding her unless it's essential.

The problem is surely she must need some actual food by now.

I am beginning to think that she might have PMV or something like developing.

She certainly has some neurological problems. I showed her some seeds in a pot and she dived in but this time she tossed them all over the place and wasn't even opening her beak to try and pick them up.

She is drinking like crazy still. When she sees the syringe, she pecks wildly at it and I have to steady her head and then she drinks continuously while I press the syringe slowly. The last pigeon I had that drank like that was PMV.

Still has no control over her legs.

My questions are:
1. Does PMV only produce the star gazing/ neck twisting symptoms, or could she still have it with this type of lack of control?

2. Is the fact she is drinking so much making her poops watery, or does that not affect them?

3. Is it ok to start popping her some seeds and maybe defrosted peas as a way of trying to keep her strength up as she's not self feeding, even though she still has runny poops?

Thanks, hope someone can help answer these queries.

Janet


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Dear janet,

I have checked Les Stockers "Practical Wildlife Care" for you. PMV usually starts off with some local eye, nose and mouth (respiratory tract) infection, usually for about 5-6 days. The virus itself multiplies in the gastrointestinal tract and is secreted in the droppings, starting at the fourth day of infection. This results is a watery or bloody diarrhoea. Only after the gastrointestinal tract is involved, central nervous systems signs become apparent. Common signs are head tremor, torticollis, loss of balance, tottering, tendency to fall over, loss of coordination (pecking near foot instead of accurately eating), paralysis of wing(s) and/or leg(s). The pigeon will shed the virus for about 6 weeks.

With regards to your second and third question I think, that the diarrhoea is resulting in a severe dehydration and loss of electrolytes, this in turn makes your pigeon incredibly thirsty, but drinking large amounts of fluids keeps also the droppings runny, if this makes sense. Either way, she needs food and water to survive the next weeks, which might mean that you have to force feed the bird by gavaging liquid food.

Good luck!!!!!!
Stephan.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi A,

As your bird has been on antibiotics now for 6 days by my count with no substantial improvement, it is very unlikely the problem is a bacterial infection. The green droppings point to damaged liver cells and the "tar" to blood in the GI tract. It is the increased water uptake that is probably the only thing keeping her alive.

As rook put it, keep it up. The antibiotic will stave off any secondary, opportunistic bacteria. If you can pull her through 10-14 days after initial onset of symptoms, she will probably make it.

Best,


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Stephan,

Thanks for that.

I stupidly forgot to look in the Les Stocker book for this.

I have nursed one pigeon before with PMV and he has made a brilliant recovery, although still lives out in my shed.

It's just that this one didn't come with any of the usual symptoms and is just changing over the last couple of days. I didn't want to assume that this was the case and miss something important.
I've just popped her a few seeds and given her more water.

Hi Grimaldy,
just picked up your note, will just keep up the regime I'm doing then and hope for the best unless anything changes significantly.

Thanks both.

Janet


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

If you can take the bird to a vet to get an exray and exam and COULD help with all the guessing....can that be done?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> If you can take the bird to a vet to get an exray and exam and COULD help with all the guessing....can that be done?


They would not do that for a sick feral I'm afraid. I only know one semi-retired vet that I can take a pigeon to that will see them while I stay. Even one feral I have that I say is a pet and has a problem with a recurring wound infection, they won't xray or operate on. There is a strict limit as to what they will do. I know full well that looking at this bird now, they would write her off.

I can't give up on her without a fight that's why I'm just asking for guesses from people that have a lot more experience than I have as to what could be wrong, as that's the only chance she has. I can do no more.

Thank you anyone that has tried to help for your time,

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

SW I am afraid that Janet is right. even the vets that are prepared to treat pigeons have to rely on guesswork, my own vet is very honest about having to consult his book. Besides which, if they confirmed PMV through tests then they would be obliged by law to put the pigeon down.

Janet, our Noelly was drinking a lot and passing cupfuls of very watery poops before she started to show the nervous symptoms of PMV. I know that leg paralysis can be a symptom of PMV but I have never seen it.

The Les Stocker book says that Poly Aid has all the nutrition a bird needs to survive. I had to keep my Little Angel on it for weeks.

Do you remember, during the crisis that brought My Little Angel and her companions to me Hallswood thought that the pigeons had been poisoned? I gave My Little Angel a tablet of activated charcoal and she vomited up a lot of gunge, I don't know if you consider that worth a try or worth the risk?

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

I'm afraid she just passed away in my hands. She was trying to take water but seemed too weak.


I had given her Carbo Veg yesterday a couple of times and that seemed to perk her up. (It is called the corpse reviver so I thought it was worth a try).
I had given her Poly Aid the night before but she really fought the syringe so that's why I tried seed popping as she accepted this better.

The poops she did through the night were good aswell. She was very lively last night and my daughter even found her half out of her box through trying to fly. I was worried that as she needed so much water, overnight she might decline.

I've just found a damp patch on her crop area that was sticky black. It was like something was oozing through the skin. It just don't know what was really going on. Just hoped it was curable.

Bless her for fighting back, rest now Sooty.

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Janet. Ali Black has posted a couple of times about pigeons that had their crop desintegrate through a bacterial infection...but this paralysis thing is something that I have never managed to get to grips with. I don't suppose that you remember Houdini, my paralysed pigeon...he was very strong and kept fighting to fly, but he also died suddenly. 

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry this one didn't make it, Janet. I don't have any useful info/advice for you but appreciate all your efforts on behalf of this pigeon.

Terry


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Janet, I'm so sorry to read that she passed away! 

Stephan


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You sure gave it your very best. I'm so sorry it turned out this way.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> I am so sorry, Janet. Ali Black has posted a couple of times about pigeons that had their crop desintegrate through a bacterial infection...but this paralysis thing is something that I have never managed to get to grips with. I don't suppose that you remember Houdini, my paralysed pigeon...he was very strong and kept fighting to fly, but he also died suddenly.
> 
> Cynthia


Hi, I guess that crop thing was part of what was going wrong. I'm sort of glad I didn't see that before today as I'd have known there wasn't any hope then. The paraylisis in her legs was odd as she could kick them, just not hold herself up on them. I had hoped it might be partly PMV related as Danni, my recovered PMV, had to be supported on one of his legs for quite a while until he recovered eventually. If it had have been then she might have stood a chance of getting some use back, but it wasn't meant to be.

I don't think I knew about Houdini Cynthia. Judging by his name he still managed to get into mischief !!

Thank you all for your messages. At least she had a week out of that cold outside cage, and she gave me a few laughs with her antics during that time.
She was a fighter. Bless her.

Janet


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Janet,

Hilde and I were rooting for this pigeon, and we are both sad she didn't make it. 

Larry


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Larry,

That is so kind of you to say. Nice to hear from you.

Take Care,

Janet


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## chriss80 (May 6, 2007)

Hello, Janet I am so sorry about the bird, I am sure she/he tryed, is so terrible when one dies.


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