# Selcuk pigeons: are they real barless or just light bluebar?



## Madalin (Apr 25, 2013)

Selcuk pigeons: are they real barless or just light bluebar?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Gorgeous birds! Never seen the like!! Are they yours?

I would imagine the gene make up of these birds is some pretty complicated stuff. 

I mean, to have such faded out wing bars but intense colour in the tail and flights is no normal situation (from what I know anyhow!)

Is there a type of dilution that targets just the wing shield?? I have no idea.

They kind of look like they might carry the ice gene too but again I have no idea about these birds.

Would be really interested to see what others have to say on the point


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## Madalin (Apr 25, 2013)

This pic is taken from google. This is a standard color of this breed


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I think they are not barless because a light bar appears to be evident. Maybe smokey, ice and bar pattern??? I'm not sure what a smokey and ice combination looks like.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Don't forget that ice has less effect on the bar areas. Maybe all barless have this remnant barring but less oobvious.

Their tails are like a chicken's tail at the top. I want them...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I Agree with Tmass, Not looking to be barless. He could be onto something with the smokey, or maybe TS with Ice...?

It kind of looks like a reduced mimic with the tail band and flights being left intact.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I Agree with Tmass, Not looking to be barless. He could be onto something with the smokey, or maybe TS with Ice...?
> 
> It kind of looks like a reduced mimic with the tail band and flights being left intact.


What is TS?

Recently was told that the dirty gene is necessary for getting a nice Ice colour in ice pigeons. The ice gene doesn't seem to affect the bars though. Barred ice pigeons have very bold bars.









I know smokey is one of the darkening genes, but don't know much about it. Wouldn't is also give black nails and beaks like dirty?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Smokey causes the beak and nails to be lighter than normal and makes a spread bird lighter while making a non spread bird a bit darker. It gives a "smokey" look to blues and blacks. It also makes the bar/check pattern less distinctive which is why I think these birds may have an extreme case of it. 

Lisa is correct in that ice needs dirty for good expression, which these birds have, however, they appear to display light color beaks, rather than the dark beak that is typical of dirty, which would indicate that smokey is possibly overpowering the dirty effect on their beaks.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Lisa, TS is toystencil, It affects the bars, lightening them to bronze or white but does not affect the tail which is why I suspect TS may be at play here.

Tmass is right about the beak thing with smokeys, in my experience dirty overrides smoky with regards to beak colour but I am sure through selection one could bring back a light beak when both genes are in combo.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Henk69 said:


> Don't forget that ice has less effect on the bar areas. Maybe all barless have this remnant barring but less oobvious.
> 
> Their tails are like a chicken's tail at the top. I want them...


Henk, I've bred many barless rollers and homers and have seen traces of bars, in the form of flecks, on a few but never entire faint bars like these. Also, het. barless usually have narrower bars than normal, never indicating faint bars, therefor I don't think these are barless.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Thank you for the clarifications


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