# Ack! Yellow/orange poop



## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

My little one has had watery poop for quite some time. I figured it was normal since I was giving him extra water between feedings. But I just fed him and cleaned his 'home' and discovered his poops are a yellow/orange color. It just appears to be just the feces themselves. It almost looks like undigested formula.  

What does this indicate? 

The only medication I have on hand is metronidazole.

I'll try to get a 'poop pic' in a few.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Okay here's a bad pic, it kinda got smooshed in the towel, lol. But it kinda gives you an idea of what I mean. I was hoping he would poop on the paper towels so I could get a better idea of the colour and whether it's the urates or the feces. I 'think' it's the feces..


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Raine

I'm sorry to hear (and see) about the yellow poop. To me they look yellow/green in appearance and yellow can indicate liver problems. 

If you can, the best thing to do is take a poop sample to a vet for analysis. 

If this were my baby I would leave off everything except the KT Exact for a few days. Also, I would add about a half to a full teaspoon of plain yogurt to the KT formula each time I fed it. The yogurt will help keep the gut healthy.

The babies we've raised are usually fed about 15 - 20 cc (each feeding) when they are the age yours appears to be. They are fed about every 4 hours or when the crop empties.

I see nothing wrong with a little ACV in between feedings if his crop doesn't empty as it should.

Please let us know how he does.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi-Raine,


Does-kind-of-look-like-undigested-formula...

If-the-pee-portion,the-urates-are-'yellow',and-looking-like-little-spills-of-flat-water-color-paint...then-this-would-be-taken-to-signal-the-presence-of-some-liver-kidney-problems,or-in-my-part-of-the-world,probable-trichomoniasis...

Otherwise,this-sort-of-seems-like-a-kind-of-diahrrea-to-me...

Maybe-too-much-water-could-do-this...!

Just-a-hunch...

Best-wishes!

Phil
Las-Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

His poops this morning are not good. The excess urine that is normally clear is now yellowish with crystals in it.  

The poop itself is back to brown/green with no yellow in it. His urate are white as far as I can tell but with his poop being loose it's hard to tell for sure. 

I'll phone my vet when they open.. I'm not sure if this vet treats birds. If not there is another vet I can take a sample to. 

He's still active/vocal and pushy at feeding time.. So I'm trying not to worry.  Seeing those crystals really freaked me out.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Ok I have a problem.  None of my local vets treat birds and the only one I found that does is over an hour away. I don't drive so I called them so see if they could give me some phone advice for the time being and got the brush off because it's "Only a Pigeon"   

The only symptoms I'm seeing are loosing watery stool.. When I turned the paper towel back and forth the excess urine shines like crystals (maybe just the urates?) and of course the yellow/orange color. Which I'm not 100% sure isn't just formula. Possibly the 'clumps' he's been getting in his crop lately coming out undigested? 

If anyone has ANY idea as to what could be causing this orange/yellow/crystals poop thing. Please fill me in. I'll find a way to treat him myself. 

UGH that stupid avian vet really ticked me off. I didn't come this far with him to give up now..


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Ooops forgot to mention. I checked his mouth and throat the best I could and I can't see or feel anything in there. 

Could trichomoniasis be in his crop maybe? His crop is rather slow to empty and every morning I feel what seems to be 'lumps' in there. I assumed they were thickened formula. Maybe not?

Like I said I do have metronidazole which from what I read so far says it's effective in treating trichomoniasis . Should I treat him for it even though I can't see anything in his mouth or throat? 

If so.. what is the dosage for a baby his size?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Hippocratic Oath for doctors treating humans. Any ethics for veterinarians?*



Raine said:


> Ok I have a problem.  None of my local vets treat birds and the only one I found that does is over an hour away. I don't drive so I called them so see if they could give me some phone advice for the time being and got the brush off because it's "Only a Pigeon"   ....
> 
> UGH that stupid avian vet really ticked me off. I didn't come this far with him to give up now..


Raine,

Opinions of others are hard to change, but they can be influenced.

We hear that veterinarians often have this dismissive attitude (towards pigeons). 

I have been considering what I can do to let others with unfavorable attitudes towards pigeons (and other forms of life) be aware of my attitude and the attitudes of many, if not most, if not all, of the others in these forums. 

This is a long-term endeavor, one which will extend beyond our lifetmes. From one way of looking at this, it has been going on since the first human decried the ill-treatment and the infliction of unnecessary suffering upon those of our species and those of other species. 

Can a person licensed to practice medicine on humans, one who has taken the Hippocratic Oath 
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath), 
dismiss another human by saying "oh, it's just a... (baby, woman, black, Jew, Egyptian, old man, or whatever)"?

Should a veterinarian, who professes to take the well-being and health of an animal as one of his major concerns, conscientiously say "oh, it's just a... (pigeon, calf, iguana, monk parrot, sparrow)" and therefore it's suffering is of no consequence (to me)? It happens, but should it? 

I Googled "Hippocratic Oah for animals", and came up with this:

http://www.goodnewsforpets.com/Articles.asp?ID=368 

PET IQ
Human health doctors have the Hippocratic Oath. Do veterinarians have an oath?


A: Yes, the American Veterinary Medical Association adopted the following oath in 1969: 

"Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine,
I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, *the relief of animal suffering*, the conservation of livestock resources, the promotion of public health, and the advancement of medical knowledge.
I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity, and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.
I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence."

Source: American Veterinary Medical Association
_
(emphasis in bold is mine)._

-- Larry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, larry, so many just forget their oath too quick.

Raine, the clumps in his crops could be trich or could be clumped formula. The formula should be eliminated with fluids, it does dissolve eventually.
Trich can develop in the esophagus far down and crop. So, I don't know what to tell you. If it was my bird, I would give it a try with the Mtronidazol. If it is Trich the poops should be getting better within a few days.
Now, the color might be from the formula. My birds always have different coloored droppings epending on what they eat.

Reti


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

I can move the clumps though.. Trich wouldn't move right? 

Ahh.. I don't know. It's worth a shot. Metronidazole also treat Giardia too I think. 

Anyone know the dosage for Metronidazole for the little ones?

Larry.. I agree, They should treat any and all. I'm not going to that clinic now.. Heck with them since they couldn't even be bothered to do a fecal test because he's a Pigeon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Metronidazole--there are a few different protocols but the oldest standard is 10-30 mg/kg, BID (Translation: 10 to 30 milligrams of pure medication to every kilogram of patient, twice daily). Do you have a weight (in grams) on this little fellow? If not, do you know (or have a good guess) how old he is in days? We can kinda' go from there. Anyhow, if you're feeding him Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula, I will say that I've noticed that the urates usually turn a bit towards the yellow while I'm feeding them that for some reason--they're not usually bright white until they go back to eating seeds. I've always worried about that but that's what my experience has been.

By the way, what type of Metronidazole have you got?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I just went back to your original thread on this guy and I see that you posted it on the 15th of the month. It's the 29th today and he looks about four days old in the picture (or so--nothing to give scale) so we're probably talking about 19 days old or so. That might put him in the 150 gram category depending. Can you post another picture of the bird that's up-to-date?

Pidgey


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

The Metronidazole I have is the human form I believe. APO-Metronidazole 250mg per pill. 

I found my gram scale and it says he's only 40 grams.  And he should be approximately 16 days old now. He's doubled in size since he's been here.. but 40 grams doesn't seem right.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Take a ruler and measure the bird as he sits with his head in the normal position (not outstretched).

As to the gram scale, get the lightest paper or styrofoam cup or container that you can find and put a known quantity of water in it (cup or half-cup) and let's see what it reads.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I will say that more than the coloring, I did worry as to the form of the poops--they look a little on the light side (not enough solids). How much are you feeding him a feeding and how many times a day? And how are you mixing the formula?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To give you another equivalence method, one ounce (1/8th cup of water) is equal to 29.6 grams. Therefore, if your scale is right, you're looking at him being equal to 1-1/3 of 1/8th of a cup (8 ounce) of water. That's pretty light for that old, I think, so let's check that scale, for sure.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Also, if you're right about the weight then you'd need to divide that pill out to 1/312.5th for a dose. The way to do that is to get a clean glass bottle and put about 5.25 ounces (156 milliliters if you can measure that way, otherwise a half-cup plus two tablespoons plus 1.5 teaspoons) and then grind the pill up into the absolute finest powder you can get it to and put it in the water. Let it set for at least a half-hour and then shake the living fool out of it before you IMMEDIATELY draw up one-half milliliter (0.5 cc's) into a syringe and administer it to the bird. If the weight of the bird is off, you're going to have to correct the dose accordingly or mix it differently.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine,


This does not seem like Trihcomoniasis to me...

However, would you review for us what his diet is...and what is the source of his Water...

Can you post an up-dated image of him...(Question)

If his Water has been the Raw-ACV-Water, made with two or three tablespoons of the ACV to a gallon of Water...this should guard well against giardia and endless other things...have you been mixing it this way..(Question)

I see no reason to treat for Canker-Trichomoniasis based on the info you have provided...

Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Sorry I haven't had a chance to try the try weighing the water. I will do that in a few minutes. And I will measure his length also. I'll take a new pic of him too. 

Phil, Yes I am mixing his formula with acv water. And his diet right now is nothing but KT. I haven't added the ground seed since the orange poop started. I think part of the problem is that I was mixing his formula too thin/watery. I make it now to a milkshake consistancy. 

Also I'm using well water.. no chlorine or anything yucky in it. 

Ok I'm off to do the above and I'll post my results in a few.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Ok he is 3 inches long.. maybe a hair bigger. He wouldn't hold still. 

And for weights I got... I didn't have anything that measured an 1/8 th of a cup. But 1/3rd of a cup weighed 80grams. And one tablespoon weighted 10 grams. So it is off by about 5 grams... I'm beyond tired right now. So feel free to correct that. I'm finding all sorts of different measurements for a 1/3rd of a cup. 



It said he is 39-40 grams when I weighed him again just now. So that would make him 44-45 grams. If I did that right.. LOL 

Ok here's a new pic


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, as to mixing the Kaytee, I do it by eye and keep adding water little by little in a deep little cup (very small) until stirring it with the handle of the spoon gets where it'll fill in behind the spoon handle fairly quickly. If it leaves a deep gash that goes to the bottom of the cup, it's too dry. If it fills in behind the spoon handle like water, it's too thin. Also, you need to mix it for a couple of minutes to make sure of its consistency as the stuff will continue to thicken for awhile after you've added the water. 

Anyhow, as to the amount, it should be 10 to 15 percent of his body weight three times a day. So, about 5 milliliters at this point and doggone near six by the end of the day. He should gain weight to the tune of about 10% per day. You need to chart it to be sure that he's gaining weight. I think that he really is behind a bit and that'll mean stunted growth so let's keep him topped up for a couple of weeks and see how it goes.

Pidgey


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Ah ok.. I understand the consistancy the formula should be now. For some stupid reason I thought it needed to be thinner.  

I'm actually feeding him about 4-5 times a day. 10-12 cc's per feeding. So the problem isn't the amount he's eating it was the thickness of the darn formula. I wondered why he seemed so far behind in growth.  I'm so stupid..  

Should I still give him the Metronidazole? 

His poops are still rather loose with excess water and I'm still seeing the odd yellow one. The urine and urates are still yellow-ish. 

I will start charting his growth starting today.. I take it he should be weighed in the morning when his crop is empty? 

Sorry if I seem slightly clueless today.. I have bouts of sleepless night.. insomnia really sucks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You're not the only one that suffers insomnia but mine's from a guilty conscience (I treat mr squeaks really bad and she'll tell you all about it).

Just kidding! She deserves it!

Like I said earlier, yellow urates are fairly common on Kaytee and watery poop can be because of too much water in the diet. As to the Metronidazole, it'd be safe at the dosage that I gave you instructions for above but I'd wait and hope that he didn't have canker first. They usually are infected, you understand, but many don't succumb to the clinical disease. When they do, it's mostly because their immune system attacks it too hard and starts necrotizing the local tissues. Metronidazole (and the others in the Nitroimidazole family) actually have a couple of effects, moderating the immune system being one of them (that means it actually chills out the immune system--good for some things, canker being one, and bad for other things when the immune system is REALLY needed).

So, let's give him a few days of his new diet and methodology and see if he starts gaining weight a little at a time. Weighing him in the morning is a perfect way to chart it. If he doesn't start gaining after two days, then use the method above and give him the Metronidazole.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hang in there, Raine!

Pidgey, Phil and others will help all they can!

We're behind you all the way and even those of us who cannot advise on meds, will be sending COMFORTING AND HEALING THOUGHTS AND HUGS!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine,


If it were me...I would start feeding him a forumula made from at least half small whole nice Seeds, such as Canary or Finch Seeds...and, one-fourth-part KT and one fourth part Malto-Meal...and with a good slug of Nutrical...

And, add some fine Canary Grit and, some Dulce and some Dark Cherry extract...

I would make sure he is getting his supplimental digestive enzymes and pro-biotics also.

I do not see any reason for treating for Canker...

The 'yellow' which I regard as a symptom in their urates, IS the urates themselves and not tannish poo...and it is like 'flat' thin paint...not tan or tannish-yellowy hued, but unambiguously 'yellow' urates, looking like satsaturated thin watercolor paint...


So, I'd say, just make his formula a little less 'thin' and start adding the other things which will benifit him generally...and the poops should come around nicely...

Keep him on a White towell...to make poop inspections earier...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

P.S.

I know you are keeping him warm...but make triple sure "he" is in fact warm through and through...no matter what the Heating Pad seems to be fine..how we keep them sheltered on the pad makes a huge difference...


Test his body warmth in your palm now and then...

...for that matter, do plenty of Hand-Nest times and other interactions with him of a hand-cupped-over-him kind...he misses being sat-on of course...and being preened and so on, so...interactions in addition to feed-times are good for him...

Did you make a "Peeper Warm House" (question)


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

P.P.S.


I am thinking, unless you are on a Well which is quite high in elevation, and not around any agricultural or livestock areas...

I would definitely skip useing the Well Water for this little one and use instead some decent brand of by-the-gallon purified (but not 'distilled') Bottled Water...and even then, if it is the slightest bit quiestionable, boil it first, all of it at the same time even, let it cool of course, put it back into the Gallon Jug, and use only that for his drinking and formula mixing Water.

Best wishes you two!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Thanks all. Your help is greatly appreciated. I'd be completely lost right now without you all.  

His poops are definitely larger now.. But I'm seeing the odd tiny one still. No more yellow ones though! And there is much less extra water with them. There were some light coloured green poops this morning. But mainly they are a medium/dark green colour. 

His crop is still a little slow to empty.. after 4 hours he still has about 3 or so cc's left in there. 

Also I started mixing the formula thicker lastnight and this morning he felt like he still had some formula left in his crop. I'd say about 2cc's. If I encounter this problem again should I just give him acv water to help move it along? Wait to see if it empties on it's own? Or just feed him as normal? 

Also my gram scale must be broken. I weighed him again this morning and it was the same weight as yesterday. I figured he would have gained something?!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine,


Please consider my many previous posts in earnest...

If he is not "warm" through and through all the time, his digestion will be messed up. 

If no one is sitting 'on' him, or if he is not in a smallish, covered enclosed "warmhouse" of some kind, chances are he is not warm enough even if the heating pad itself is.

If you and your Well Water are less than above 5 or 6 thousand feet up...or if you are any where near any livestock or agrigculture, do not use the Well Water for this Baby...

If you do not mix the formula the night before for the next day's use, so it is fully hydrated, it will thicken in his Crop.

In Nautre he would be getting all Seeds by now...Seeds-in-Water-slurry..with some odd bits of fresh Greens or Green Seeds and or small Fruiting-bodys...he would not be getting 'paste' from his Pigeon Parents.


Because of my keyboard problems, this post took me over tweny minutes to write.


Best wishes!

Phil
LasVegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the ways that I recently learned to help keep them warm is to put them under a feather duster. You still use the heating pad, but this keeps the warmth in better. One of the ways to gauge whether he's good and warm is if he feels hot to the touch (without the panting, heat-stroke look that we all get when we're way overheated). Whenever you feel exposed skin on a bird, it should always feel like the 107 degrees that they normally run in body temperature. Now, you don't want to keep their environment that hot because they can overheat but 90 to 95 will certainly do.

Pidgey


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Something was definitely wrong.. he died late lastnight. I am completely devastated. He went downhill so fast.. I don't know what happened. I feel like it's my fault.. I held him until he died.  

He was fine at the 4:30pm feeding, active and pushy as usual. At 6:30pm I cuddled him against my stomach in the living room for about an hour. He was fine when I put him back in on his heating pad and covered him up at 7:30pm. I went to get him at 8:30pm for his feeding and he couldn't walk, couldn't hold his head up.. almost like he was drunk. He was trying to walk but it was like he had no control of his head, kept going in circles and falling completely over. Also his last and only poop was surrounded by green liquid.. 

What from I've read it sounds like PMV.. But it just hit him so quickly. When I found him this way at 8:30pm he died 6 hours later. 

I don't think he was chilled. I kept his 'home' covered and I also draped a paper towel over his 'nest' to keep additional heat in. The temp in there was 100-103 depending on the room temp. I had a thermometer in there at all times to monitor it. He was 'hot' to the touch. But no panting or anything of the sort.

Sorry Phil.. I meant to reply to your post, but company walked in my door so I just sent what I had already typed. I switched to bottled spring water after reading your post.

I guess I'll never really 100% know what happened to him.. but what does it sound like to you all?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know because the symptoms that you describe are actually non-specific. They more point to the final slide than anything else. It could easily have been any of several diseases, it could have been a strain on the organs to have to digest more food than they were normally used to, he may have aspirated a little bit (breathed in some food), it's just impossible to say. I'm sorry he died, it always hurts.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Raine, I am so sorry. To me, this baby had a problem from the onset and nothing you did should have caused him to die. I always dread getting in a young one whose crop doesn't go down like it should and sometimes, no matter what we do, it doesn't make it. They usually die very quickly too.

I know you are terribly sad and please know I am thinking of you.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Thanks Pidgey.. It just seemed so odd to go from active and healthy to dying right before my eyes and I couldn't do anything to help him.  

The only symptoms prior to the drunken, circling behaviour were the his poops. They were yellow/orangey and paint like, yellow urates and excess fluid which started out clear, turned yellow and then green lastnight before he died. 

On top of the odd clicking sound I could hear every once in awhile.. and the slow development.. Which I had mentioned in my other thread. 

I called the avian vet that I mentioned earlier explained everything to her and she said it sounded like paratyphoid or paramyxovirus. She said the best course of action is to put them to sleep.. I know that's not true. So I'm hesitant to believe a word she says. 

I know none of you can tell me for sure what happened.. I guess I'm just looking for an answer to put my mind at ease. I thought for sure he was going to be fine.. then to watch him die was absolutely heartbreaking. 

Lady Tarheel, I didn't see your post until after I sent mine. I guess I didn't want to believe that there was somthing wrong with him from the start.. But the slow crop did set off alarms from the get go. I'm just not cut out for this rescue thing.. I'm a complete blubbering wreck.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm so sorry, Raine! I know how devastated you are! ANYONE who rescues faces just what you did and all understand. 

Some are able to handle these situations better emotionally than others. I am not one of them. I worked for a Vet at one time but could not handle doing so today. I have the utmost respect for those who work in heartbreaking situations. One has to develop a certain "mindset" so you don't always fall apart. However, there are "special" cases that just hurt more.

You are not alone and I send you WARM HUGS AND THOUGHTS to help "heal" your sadness. Please take care and stay connected with the site!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry for your loss, Raine. You did everything you could for this little baby.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear this baby died. I know you did your best to help this youngster, and I'm sure this was just heartbreaking. 

Sending comforting thoughts and my condolensces.


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