# Tiger Swallow genetics



## MaryOfExeter

What gene allows Tiger Swallows to turn solid white after plucking a couple times?
Now I know there is the Tiger Grizzle gene that does this naturally. The feathers are colored (but they do look a bit different, sort of scratchy like a just barely grizzled feather) as juveniles, and then with each moult they get more white feathers. BUT if Tiger grizzle was present in Tiger Swallows....then how come it doesn't show?

Also, what is the difference between us plucking their feathers, and their natural moulting? It seems like they would get white on their own.

I know there are other pigeons that allow us to "design" them like this, so just what gene is it that makes it possible?


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## copper

Tiger Swallow pigeons are Tiger Grizzles, it does show in some young.


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## spirit wings

are you talking of like what seraphim do.. they molt out to all white..but have red in the wings as young birds?


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## loonecho

One theory I have heard is that continued plucking depletes the reservoir of melanin available to individual feathers. I saw something on Ron Huntleys site where someone in India (I think) started with spread black homers and over time plucked the same feathers in a specific pattern and ended up with black pigeons with white stripes or other designs. I will try to find it and post a link. In this case, no gene would be involved but rather the depletion of melanin by plucking the same feathers over and over.

Jim


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## sreeshs

loonecho said:


> One theory I have heard is that continued plucking depletes the reservoir of melanin available to individual feathers. I saw something on Ron Huntleys site where someone in India (I think) started with spread black homers and over time plucked the same feathers in a specific pattern and ended up with black pigeons with white stripes or other designs. I will try to find it and post a link. In this case, no gene would be involved but rather the depletion of melanin by plucking the same feathers over and over.
> 
> Jim


That I believe was the "Kach Paray" variety in which repeated plucking was carried out to bring in the pattern through depletion.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/-kach-paray-43134.html

In Tiger grizzles was it one single plucking ?


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## loonecho

Good Job Sreeshs. That is what I was refering to. I guess it was Frank Moscas site rather than Ron Huntleys site. 

Jim


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## MaryOfExeter

Other pigeons do not turn white when they are plucked twice, so there must be some gene that allows the melanin to deplete faster. Tiger Swallows have been bred to where they only need to be plucked two times before the feathers turn white.

I just figured if it was ONLY tiger grizzle, then they would naturally moult in some white into the wings/muffs and thus mess up the perfect man-made pattern. How did they breed it to where it didn't effect the colored areas of the bird?


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## spirit wings

MaryOfExeter said:


> Other pigeons do not turn white when they are plucked twice, so there must be some gene that allows the melanin to deplete faster. Tiger Swallows have been bred to where they only need to be plucked two times before the feathers turn white.
> 
> I just figured if it was ONLY tiger grizzle, then they would naturally moult in some white into the wings/muffs and thus mess up the perfect man-made pattern. How did they breed it to where it didn't effect the colored areas of the bird?


is this what you have to do to show for the standard?.. it(the feathers)are not natural?.. seems it goes against what the rules say..

"Disqualifications 

Any outward physical deformity (i.e. crooked beak, crippled legs, drooping wings, etc.), over trimmed (trimmed to where the skin shows) or obvious faking. Obvious cross breeding. 



would the plucking be under faking?..


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## george simon

*Hi BECKY, First the Tiger Swallow is realy the the Bohemian Fairy Swallow, Saxon Fairy Swallow, and there is no grizzle at work in creating the tiger look in these birds.It is done by plucking feathers (Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds, page 451.) In the book ("Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons") by Axel Sell, on page 130 he has this to say, "The shield and flight-feather marking ("Tiger") of the Saxon Fairy Swallow, is not the simply the result of genes but hand-made by the fanciers.Repeating plucking of the feathers will result in the growth of white ones.The duration of this procedure deptnds on the plumage color. Yellow is the easiest one in this respect,followed by red and black.Blue is a hard color and it will take a lot of pluckingto get a showable tigered pigeon.The marking once arrived at will be stable, thus we will not have to repeat the plucking after the molt (Munst, 1975), end of quote.*GEORGE


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## george simon

spirit wings said:


> is this what you have to do to show for the standard?.. it(the feathers)are not natural?.. seems it goes against what the rules say..
> 
> "Disqualifications
> 
> Any outward physical deformity (i.e. crooked beak, crippled legs, drooping wings, etc.), over trimmed (trimmed to where the skin shows) or obvious faking. Obvious cross breeding.
> 
> 
> 
> would the plucking be under faking?..


*Hi Spirt Wings* First you must understand that these birds are Judge in a class for birds with those markings, and those people breeding and judging these birds understand this,so there is nothing dishonest going on here.It takes years of work to do this and they do produce a beautiful bird with the Tiger look. ..GEORGE


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## vivagirl

Becky, It dose not have to be a Tiger Swallow. It can be any breed. I agree with poster that the lighter the color the quicker it works. You can do it to a solid black bird. Try it and see. I have some Red Marbled Starlings that are solid red as youngsters but they slowly moult in to red. But thats not the same. Vivagirl


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## copper

Hey George,I have to disagree with you, all Tiger swallows have grizzle in them.You can check out the United Swallow Club Newsletter ,summer of 2001.


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## MaryOfExeter

vivagirl said:


> Becky, It dose not have to be a Tiger Swallow. It can be any breed. I agree with poster that the lighter the color the quicker it works. You can do it to a solid black bird. Try it and see. I have some Red Marbled Starlings that are solid red as youngsters but they slowly moult in to red. But thats not the same. Vivagirl


So technically I _could_ do this to my homers or fantails and make "tigered" patterns? So all pigeons will have their melanin depleted after plucking several times?


Like I said before, Tiger Swallows only have to be plucked a couple times now, versus being plucked many times in the past. So that part has to be genetic. From what I'm gathering, you can pluck any breed and then mate the more quicker depleted birds together to get birds that don't need to be plucked as much.


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## sreeshs

MaryOfExeter said:


> So technically I _could_ do this to my homers or fantails and make "tigered" patterns? So all pigeons will have their melanin depleted after plucking several times?
> 
> 
> Like I said before, Tiger Swallows only have to be plucked a couple times now, versus being plucked many times in the past. So that part has to be genetic. From what I'm gathering, you can pluck any breed and then mate the more quicker depleted birds together to get birds that don't need to be plucked as much.


Becky, it may be also associated to selective breeding of pigeons which had low amount of pigments (melanin or equivalents) and the breed got established with low pigment reservoirs, just a thought. Since all physical characteristics of a particular being is ultimately related to genes, the amount of pigment carried also should be, right ? Now if you are asking whether that gene has been identified...... I don't know


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## MaryOfExeter

Is this the one you're talking about?
http://unitedswallowclub.com/News PDFs/Newsletter Sept 2001.pdf

Reminds me of the reversion to white in RR birds that George was talking about in another thread. With RR and RY birds, which genes makes white isn't quite figured out yet, so I don't think we can say whether it is tiger grizzle or undergrizzle (which is what it looks like to me) or any kind of grizzle. Probably a combination.

I noticed they also called grease quills "velvet". That bothered me a little  Haha.


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## copper

Yes Becky,that's the site .They have a few articles on Bohemian Tiger Swallow's and If they are homozygous for grizzle most of the young will molt in almost all white.
In Paul Gibson's book Genetics of Pigeons,on page 168;"Swallows are bred in many colors and utilize the genes for Toy Stencil and Tiger Grizzle (G t) to produce some very attractive birds."


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## spirit wings

they are something.. beautiful... does it hurt the pigeon to pull the feathers... it seems like it would.


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## copper

I think it does.


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## Jaysen

A quick google search for "tiger swallow pigeon" leads us to a post by someone using the name "Mary of Exeter" back in '09. That MoE seems to be pretty smart (at least compared to this dumb guy) and explains how to pluck without causing pain. 

I wonder if that MoE is _our_ MoE?


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## sreeshs

The dry feathers might not much, the blood feathers cause immense pain and bleeding. It might also depend on which feather.
Sometimes in the loft when I try to catch that in-descent fellow, he loses some times a couple of tail feathers and does not mind at all.

Also one of my recessive red pigeon has one single white feather at the top of the shoulder, I pluck it and usually he will be eating at that time, sometime gives a look and a slap sometimes just continues eating.


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## MaryOfExeter

Jaysen said:


> A quick google search for "tiger swallow pigeon" leads us to a post by someone using the name "Mary of Exeter" back in '09. That MoE seems to be pretty smart (at least compared to this dumb guy) and explains how to pluck without causing pain.
> 
> I wonder if that MoE is _our_ MoE?


Yes, that is me 


Cutting the feathers first is the best way to do it, and probably how most tiger swallow people do it. In a few weeks after cutting, the feathers can be pulled out painlessly.
The smaller feathers probably do not hurt nearly bas bad as the larger ones, like flights and tail feathers. An important thing is to snatch them quickly or it will bother the bird more. Like pulling teeth - gotta do it quick!


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## Doves1111

This thread is from 2004 regarding Tiger Swallows...
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f8/looking-for-tiger-swallows-8372.html

Dawn


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## copper

They are beautiful !


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## spirit wings

amazingly beautiful!.. I have three silesian silver barless I got from a dear person and member here, and they are fast becomeing my favorites in the loft..so easy going and calm and pretty to look at..thought my frillbacks were my faves..but I really do love these birds..


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## UssChicago1

I wish I saw this thread earlier. As far as I know, they DO have the grizzle gene. I will ask the breeder..


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## cubanlofts

I would have to agree with dove on this one, read his link, very nice.


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## cubanlofts

UssChicago1 said:


> I wish I saw this thread earlier. As far as I know, they DO have the grizzle gene. I will ask the breeder..


grizzle birds are obtained by mixing a white bird with a black one, or any other solid color, them u grab their babies and u mex them with a white bird, and voila, grizzles, it works for me.


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## MaryOfExeter

No, grizzles come from the grizzle gene. It's a dominant gene and is not sex-linked. Your white birds must have grizzle underneath.


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## cubanlofts

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, that is me
> 
> 
> Cutting the feathers first is the best way to do it, and probably how most tiger swallow people do it. In a few weeks after cutting, the feathers can be pulled out painlessly.
> The smaller feathers probably do not hurt nearly bas bad as the larger ones, like flights and tail feathers. An important thing is to snatch them quickly or it will bother the bird more. Like pulling teeth - gotta do it quick!


u can tie a string to the feather that u will be pulling, like 75 per cent of the feather, them it will kill the nerve of that feather in a week, them u can pull it, u dont even have to cut it if u dont want to, it will allow the bird to fly longer and not be flapping aroud longer than necessary, when u tie a string to the feather u r cutting blood circulation and it kills the feather, like any appendix.
when u pull a feather over and over and over the nerves of that feather is telling the brain of that pigeon that pigmentation is not necessary and it goes back to the most basic color, white.


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## cubanlofts

UssChicago1 said:


> I wish I saw this thread earlier. As far as I know, they DO have the grizzle gene. I will ask the breeder..


theres not such a thing as grissle genes, grissles are manipulation of color. Ive being breeding grizzles for a while now, and is all manipulation of the colors.


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## UssChicago1

cubanlofts said:


> theres not such a thing as grissle genes, grissles are manipulation of color. Ive being breeding grizzles for a while now, and is all manipulation of the colors.


So its not affected by a gene?


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## copper

Hi Becky,the gene for Grizzle (G) is a partial dominant that produces a lightening effect that appears peppery, grizzly, or frosty.
Grizzle is restricted by other genes such as CT, S, So, and some bronzes.
The gene for Tiger Grizzle (Gt) was determined to be an allele of G. It seems to be an autosomal dominant with variable expression.


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## cubanlofts

MaryOfExeter said:


> No, grizzles come from the grizzle gene. It's a dominant gene and is not sex-linked. Your white birds must have grizzle underneath.


I dont think so, my white birds are pure white, got them from a dove release business here in Mo, If it s gene affected, that s is not my case, I just being mixing white birds and their descendents with dark birds and i get grizzles.


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## MaryOfExeter

Recessive white can carry grizzle underneath it.

Yes, there are genes for grizzle. Grizzle, like most other color genes, are color modifiers. The birds are still either ash-reds, blues, or browns, and either barless, bar, check, or t-pattern. There's a ton of variation in grizzles and each color, pattern, and additional modifier has an effect on the way it turns out. Even genetically identical birds, like blue bar grizzles, will look different. Just like no two pied birds are exactly the same.


Sometimes pied birds can look a lot like grizzles, especially when they are pied on the head in tiny specks. So your white birds either carry pied genes or grizzle.


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## copper

White is not a color !!! There is no melanin present in white feathers. Melanin is the pigment which is normally in a pigeons feathers and which provides the colors we see depending on its shape and amount.


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## Albannai

cubanlofts said:


> u can tie a string to the feather that u will be pulling, like 75 per cent of the feather, them it will kill the nerve of that feather in a week, them u can pull it, u dont even have to cut it if u dont want to, it will allow the bird to fly longer and not be flapping aroud longer than necessary, when u tie a string to the feather u r cutting blood circulation and it kills the feather, like any appendix.
> when u pull a feather over and over and over the nerves of that feather is telling the brain of that pigeon that pigmentation is not necessary and it goes back to the most basic color, white.


I have a pair of white side red homres. There only few red feathers on the side I pull them all the time for about one year and still the same color. all youngs look like the parents. I was told when parents go back the basic white color youngs can carry will be the same. if possible can u explain how can I tie them with a sting?


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