# Male or female?



## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

I've posted about what I think is a male Indian fantail on another thread.
This is my homer...any guesses on gender based on its appearance?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Nice chequered bird...Enjoy him/her
Hard to guess. A closer shot showing bird's full body with neck stretched out might help.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Thank you. How's this?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Pretty bird! Blue checkered are my favorite.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Thank you. I really love this bird. He/she is not a pet...the bird lives in our aviary. But we have a sort of relationship and I can perceive the bird's intelligence. It's a joy for me when he/she does "the helicopter" or takes a bath. It's just a disappointment that the bird I acquired to be a non-breeding mate turned out to probably be of the same gender.


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

In the first picture it looks like a mature, grumpy hen.
In the second picture it still looks like a hen, just not as grumpy.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Thank you. How about this photo? Still a hen but maybe happy?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Testing the talent.lol
But who will tell if the guess is right or wrong? Pls arrange a pigeon because I read that sometimes it is so difficult to guess pigeon's gender by its looks, only a pigeon can know it for sure.lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A pretty good way is to put the bird in a cage with a large mirror. See how he reacts to the other bird. A hen will pretty much ignore it, or just sit by it. A male will usually either want to fight with him, or dance and display in front of him. Try it, it's interesting.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

There is a way to tell sex by just a glance although I don't know if it holds true with all breeds.
Hens tend to have skinnier flights and longer keel bones.
Cocks have thicker flights and are usually bigger than hens.
Cocks when they coo add/have this extra Wah-Wah sound at the end of the coo.
Hope this helps


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thanks for posting more pics Scottsdaleaz,
This pose is so helpful in guessing gender of a pigeon.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Thanks for posting more pics Scottsdaleaz,
> This pose is so helpful in guessing gender of a pigeon.



By looks it seems a male to me 
Tell if I am right ? And how do you guess?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Thought a lot.huh. and now by beak it seems a female to me.lol


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yes its a male.
Looking at some of the physical features combined may help to guess the gender


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Yes its a male.
> Looking at some of the physical features combined may help to guess the gender


Yessss...so I was right to judge by his looks, got confused with beak.lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can't always tell from pictures. If you think you can be positive from a pic, you are fooling yourself.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

When we just have a pic we can only do what we are doing. Lol. Weird guesses.
When have a pair, will go for mirror test as you advised


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

why would you need to use the mirror test for a pair?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> why would you need to use the mirror test for a pair?


When I dont know which one is male or female. Or if I dont have a pair I can still do your mirror test with that single.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you have a pair, you can usually tell which is which.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. How about sound? Would a male react to a female's calling? Don't males call all night when they are ready? Give it some rice and if it starts to call/coo, then i am 100 percent sure: with my tumblers. Thanks.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

kiddy said:


> When we just have a pic we can only do what we are doing. Lol.* Weird guesses.*
> When have a pair, will go for mirror test as you advised


Yes, for a newbie.

But for one who has the eye,another story.
Even males pair up together and so does the females but as I've said, a combination of characterstics give us clue. Mirror method isn't flawless. Holla


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Yes, for a newbie.
> 
> But for one who has the eye,another story.
> Even males pair up together and so does the females but as I've said, a combination of characterstics give us clue. Mirror method isn't flawless. Holla



No, the mirror method isn't flawless. But it is just another way of getting a pretty good idea of the gender. Often does work. Certainly no worse than looking at a pic and thinking you _know_ for sure. You can only guess. But it isn't 100% sure.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

So just guessed , wasn't sure of course. And even if I know which is which in a pair , still just to try mirror test, how it goes and how succesful it is.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

*More pointed question...*

THanks to all who have responded.
So, as a reminder, I have only two pigeons in an 8' X 8' X 4' aviary.
I am not looking to breed. They are both sort of rescues. I wanted them to be happy, to nurture them.
The blue check racer came first. I thought it was male. So I acquired a white Indian Fantail who I was told was female to keep it company.
Wrong!!
Now that the white fantail has had good food, water, etc., its behavior seems male to me. "He" coos almost non-stop, is in love with his reflection in the mirror, and goes crazy when mourning doves pass by. His cooing almost sounds desperate and pathetic.
The racer's behavior is much more subdued (some of you said it looks like a grumpy hen). 
Questions: 1. will the racer eventually fall for the fantail? 
2. If I introduced a female into the equation - even on a trial basis - would she like the fantail and would it be more quiet or less quiet than the fantail's current almost non-stop cooing? thanks in advance.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You could give them time together and see what happens. If they are male and female, then they will most likely get together. Unless you have 2 males, in which case,
bringing in a hen to pair him with would definitely quiet him down. Any new birds should be quarantined for a month before adding to the other birds, which gives you time to make sure that she is healthy and not carrying anything that she could give to your birds. Introducing them slowly would be best, if you can, after a month, put her in a cage where they can see each other, but not touch. Wait till they both show interest in being together, then you can let her out of the cage and see what happens. The only thing is that if you put her where she can see both males and they can see her, then there's no telling which one she will like. And if you get a mate for one of them, then you will need to get a mate for the other one, or they will both be after the one hen. 
I would wait and see what happens with the 2 you already have. How long have you had them together?


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Jay3: thank you. Sound advice.
They have been together since October. Initially the racer was very bossy to the fantail, but there's enough room in the aviary that they carved out their own sections. They fight once in a blue moon but tend to roost on adjacent perches at night.
However, in the last couple of months, the dynamics have changed. The fantail is so much more vocal!! As I indicated below, it coos more than not, and definitely flies to the ground and moves in circles when a mourning dove is nearby looking for food. I don't want to project, but I interpret the behavior as extremely lonely, looking to hook up. The fantail also hangs out in a nest box that input hay into and coos from there. The racer is impassive. I should mention there's never been an egg in the mix.
I can give it more time, but if a hen picked one of them, then I'd get the other a mate too. One at a time, and I'd take your advice on quarantine. Thoughts about the timing?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If they have been together since October, then you probably have two males.
Getting 2 pretty little females would be a good idea. You could pick up a couple of females now actually. The hard part is knowing for sure what gender you are getting, as you don't really want to break up another pair. I have a loft of rescues, and usually let them pick their own mate. But right now, I have a male who lost his mate several months ago, and is reeking havoc with another pair, so he is the one I want mated now. So even though I do have other males in the loft who would appreciate meeting the cute little female I have now, I have separated the male I want to mate up, and had them in 2 separate cages, and away from the other birds, to introduce them. They liked each other, so I let them fly freely in the room, and they got together and took one of the cages. They are now a pair. I will wait a while, then put them into the loft as a pair.
Usually, I just introduce the new bird into the flock, and they will pick a mate. I do keep watch for a while though, just to make sure that a male isn't being too aggressive.
Maybe you could make a deal with whoever you get the birds from, that if one turns out to be male, that you can return it for another bird.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Dear Jay3: thank you. I am getting closer to a plan.
In a couple of weeks there will be a pigeon meet sponsored by the local (state) pigeon club. I can "borrow" a known female, presumably one who is not paired already and who has proven her gender by laying an egg. I can then introduce the female into the aviary and let her choose one of the pigeons.
Then, based on how the not-chosen one acts, I can either get another or see if three can get along. My go-to source (Palomacy) tells me I can comfortably fit 4 pigeons. I know some people would put more in there, but it's not a loft for sport or breeding, it's more of a rescue aviary and I'm getting satisfaction from watching them thrive.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It isn't really fair to pair up one bird and not the other. He will also want a mate. Also singles cause problems when kept in with mated birds. So much better and more peaceful when everyone is paired up. What will you do if she were to choose the homer? The fantail will still be hollering for a mate. LOL.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

This is good input... If a female chose the homer then I could get another female for the fantail. Or, I can leave the status quo and let these boys pine away for the nearby mourning doves. But thanks for confirming that three's a crowd. I'm still pretty new to this. I rescued the racer in August and got the fantail in October.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Here is the Indian fantail I got from the country store who I now think is male, despite their checking of the vents.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Does look like a handsome cock!
If I'm worried about the crowd I would swap one of the current males with a female. If you're getting a homer hen you may like to give out the fantail male so remaining will be of same breed


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, that was my next suggestion. But wasn't sure you wanted to swap either one. But that may be a possibility.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Thanks, both. I'm not currently prepared to swap. I see the two birds as individuals and I have affectionation for both of them. Spirit is just annoying with the incessant cooing, but I also feel sorry for him.
My main questions have been answered: it's unlikely the two will mate. Therefore I will introduce a pigeon for each. I will view swapping as a last resort.
Thanks so much!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

You're welcome with your decision.
Do let us know what happens


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I didn't think that you would want to swap them. You get attached. Please let us know how it goes. Good luck!


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

*Four birds now, and I'm done!*

Update: So at a recent AZ pigeon club I brought the fantail. He was confirmed as male, based on his reactions to some hens there. I acquired two hens (confirmed because they had each laid eggs): one for the fantail and one for the blue check racer. The blue check racer (Woot) completely fell for one of them (see attached photo). The fantail was hitting on both hens and fighting with Woot, so I have him separated with the single gal for a week. But I am so happy for my blue check racer. Now I am done. I won't be breeding...just trying to give these 4 birds a good life. And for my own enjoyment (nurturing instinct)?


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Jay3: you said a hen might prefer the homer. But, I have the fantail with the other hen. They've been in my back-up rabbit hutch (predator proof) and show some signs of bonding. I will reintroduce them to the other two (who at this point already have an egg, are next building, etc).
I'm crossing my fingers for harmony.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Awww! Very cute. Glad things have worked out. The other male should calm down eventually. If he keeps bothering them when you return them, you may have to remove him again for a longer period of time.


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Thank you! This is the male fantail in the hutch with the second new hen. It's been five days. At worst, they are co-existing just fine. At best, I've seen small signs of courtship behavior. But may be stifled due to the subpar environs? 
Anyway, I want to put them back in the aviary on Saturday. Crossing fingers! and to Jass SamOplay: yes, the fantail was male as was the blue check racer.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He thinks he's God's Gift to the loft. I have one like that.
I never just put them together. I wait till they both show signs of wanting to be together. Sometimes the female just doesn't like the male, and the males have been known to hurt the hens. I like them to both want to be together. How is she acting toward him?


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

I would say that she's neutral to accepting. At least he hasn't been aggressive towards her. Two more days and back in they go. Rehoming the fantail is my ultra last resort.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thanks for the update!
Wotta beautiful homer girl you bought!!! She's adorable.
The fantail hen is gorgeous too.
Good luck, enjoy them.
Can you post a close up pic of the homer hen?


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## Scottsdaleaz (Aug 30, 2014)

Thanks, Jass SamOplay. So, I actually got 2 white homer hens. I think they may be called "Antrop" or "Antrup." They have a sort of graduated beige color on their wings. I would call it almost amber. They are stunning. A kid, probably 13 to 14 years old, breeds pigeons with his Dad here in Arizona. For the record, I prefer to rescue, but I really needed to have confirmed hens given the noise level and growing discord in my aviary with the two cocks (rescued blue check racer and quasi-rescued white Indian Fantail). So, for a nominal fee, the kid didn't want to breed this type any longer and I took the two hens off his hands. The aviary was pretty wild for that first week with the two boys vieing for the hens. The blue check hooked up with the smaller one and they are building a nest, kissing, etc. At the kid's advice, I've had the male fantail in with the other hen for a week in a rabbit hutch. No aggression, signs of some bonding, but now I plan to re-introduce them to the aviary. If they hook up, I'm done! 4 birds, fake eggs, beauty and harmony is my goal here. I will post better photos of the girls this weekend.


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