# Sick Youngbird - Need Advice



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Today I noticed that LittleBar was looking "punk" -- standing in the posture of this pic








(taken in my extra bathroom a few minutes ago) 
although she eagerly ate from my hand the safflower seeds that I offer them as treats. But a few minutes later, vomited some up.  I can feel a bump in her crop, but it's less now than earlier.

Later on, I went back down to the coop, because something was bugging me about this, and decided to bring her into the house since she was still looking punk. I set her up with a shallow box with heating pad (on low) under part of it, and set out a custard cup of water, which she drank from as soon as she understood what it was. While I was out gathering supplies, poop was produced. 








I do not like the look of this poop. 
I have never seen any like this before. The dark green part seems almost like a gel, and the poop smells like stinky feet. The poop on the floor in the picture and the larger poop on the paper towel are the same one; the one on the paper towel at the bottom of the picture was made later.

She doesn't seem to have vomited since she's in the house, but she may not have eaten anything since mid afternoon. 

Meds I have on hand are Fishzole, Clavamox 62.5mg, Dr Pigeon's Coccicide, and Bene-bac, along with stuff from the kitchen -- ACV, garlic, cinnamon, etc. There is ACV in the water already, but I'm not sure what I should do next...


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

what I would treat for right off the bat would be canker ,cocci and worms and then see how she acts then go from there as it might be a fungal thing too  baytril is a nice drug to cover if it could be paratyphoid as well .. youngbird sickness could be just about anything in the longrun


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Where exactly is the 'bump' you can feel?


'Poops' do not appear to even be fecal matter...rather, they appear to be Bile - no food has been passing, if any has even been eaten lately to do so.

Appearance of Bile and 'flat' Urates is typical of advanced Canker infection...probably attended by Candida.

You would need the 'Fishzole', and, ideally, 'Medistantin' or 'Nystatin' - if oral meds are even going to be able to pass the Crop to be assimilated.


If the 'bump' is in the Neck, there may be problems getting anything down, getting anything into the Crop.


Do you know how to examine their Mouth and Throat?

Do you have any experience in Tube Feeding?

Would you be able to Tube Feed thin formula, in addition to Meds in solution?


Anyway, isolate this Bird into an indoor Observation Cage, and have them on a white Towel...and, if you in a cooler clime, supply supplimental warmth ( if you need details on how to do that, let us know).


Unless certain they can drink and pass Water at this time, with-hold Water...( and of course with-hold Seeds ).


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Just checked on Little Bar and she was sitting on the heated side of the box. 
She's pooped again, similar appearance, but this time it doesn't smell strange. 
Weighed her, since I already disturbed her resting to change the paper towels in the box. 290g.

@Phil:
I've opened her beak and her mouth and throat (as much as I can see) are normal looking pink -- no spots, nothing reddish, no cheezy bits, etc. 
(I meant to post that in the first post, but got distracted getting the pictures in)
You can see the bump in the picture; this evening it is less (visually and felt) than it was earlier this afternoon, before she vomited. 
She drank some ACV water since she's in the house, and does not seem to have vomited it up.
I have no experience in tube feeding; most of my experience is with cats (which is how I happened to have some clavamox on hand). 
Does nystatin come from a vet, or can I get it from Foy's? (They are about 1.5 hours from me; I can go in person if I need something quickly).

@lokotaloft:
What things treat for canker & cocci at once? I'm not very familiar with pij meds. Would worms be a likely culprit even if all the birds are prisoners, and have not flown outside for several years? Little Bar is 2 months old, hatched Apr 23, and hasn't been outside the coop until I brought her into the house this evening.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

rfboyer said:


> Just checked on Little Bar and she was sitting on the heated side of the box.
> She's pooped again, similar appearance, but this time it doesn't smell strange.
> Weighed her, since I already disturbed her resting to change the paper towels in the box. 290g.
> 
> ...


for canker I would treat with Metronidazol or Ronidazole, for Coccidiosis I would treat with albon or sulmet and for worms just for the sake of it I would treat with either ivermec or bayverm just because bayverm covers almost all worms that pigeons can encounter all obtainable from foys , my breeders have never been out and still have had worms just so you know ... http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/index.html


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



Your Pigeon's condition is pretty serious...

So, if it was me, I would start with the 'fishzole' now.

ACV-Water is very good, so keep her on that for the next week...it will help the meds work better, and help against Candida ( or it will help if even no Candida is present...it's just that Candida will often attend this condition or be part of the syndrome).

Double check the 'lump' and find out more about it.

Are you confident it is not just her Neck Bones itself you are feeling there? Their Neck is a sort of "S" shape in reverse.


I get Pigeons with this condition quite often.


I would use Metronidazole, and Medistatin.

I think 'Foys' ought to have both.

The Metronidazole comes in Tablets.

Tablet can be broken into four pieces, and, these put into her Throat one every fifteen minutes for her to swallow. Do not put in a whole Tablet...break it up into four parts for oral administion...allow some short ACV_Water sippings after each Tablet part.

If she has infection/lesions/inflamitory debris in her lower esophagus, you will be lucky if even those small items can pass.

If they lodge, small sippings of ACV-Water will see them dissolve and pass well enough, but be wary of her Throat filling up with liquid when she drinks, since this could cause an aspiration danger-disaster.


The 'Medistatin' is a powder one mixes with Water as per the label instructions.

It tastes good, and, a sick Bird will gladly drink it.

With-hold Water for now, offering it only under supervision...making sure her Crop is indeed passing Liquids alright and not filling up.


I do not know what form 'Fishzole' comes in, if it is a powder or tablet.

But either way, figure out a way of getting an initial right dose into her now.


'Solid' Food can be very dangerous for a Bird showing the symptoms of yours...hence, my interest in 'Tube Feeding' thin Formula, such as 'KT'.


Maybe the good people at Foys could show you how to tube feed when you go there tomorrow.

If not, various of the busybodys here, me or whomever, probably could explain how.


You will need a couple 10 cc or 10 ml Syringes, plain 'nose' type.

Also, a couple No. 8 French, Silicone ( 'soft' ) pediatric urinary Catheters, socket-end types, where the socket end will fit onto the Syringe 'nose'. Length does not metter, since you will be cutting it shorter anyway.

Any Home Medical Supply place can sell you these, and they cost next to nothing.


Worms could be an issue, ( with Canker present ) but it is not likely in a Bird as young as this.

This is most likely a Canker issue primarily, located somewhere down where an oral exam will not see it.


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I can start with Fish Zole now, if she can drink it, or if I can figure out how to "pill" her.
(I know I've read of administering pills in here, but my search-fu is not strong tonight).
The Fish Zole I have is tablets, 250mg. of metronidazole. 
The fish zole tabs dissolve readily enough in warm water; I've used them to treat the whole coop, in their drinker (an extra sticker on that bottle of pills has instructions that say 8 tabs per gallon of water for 5 days).
I also have some 250g metronidazole tabs (already quartered) left over from a Rx for one of my cats (who, interestingly, got 1/4 tab/day). 

I have a syringe that goes up to 14cc or 1/2 oz with a tiered "business end" and another of similar size that's not graduated, but has a softer, curved tip.

Little Bar weighs 290 grams, according to my food scale. She seems about medium size compared to the other just-graduated-from-squeaker YBs... (posting this so I don't lose the info). 

I'll take away the dish of small seeds (a finch mix, which is all I could get) and only offer her water when I check on her... 

Now, to hunt for instructions on pilling a pigeon.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

rfboyer said:


> I can start with Fish Zole now, if she can drink it, or if I can figure out how to "pill" her.
> (I know I've read of administering pills in here, but my search-fu is not strong tonight).
> The Fish Zole I have is tablets, 250mg. of metronidazole.
> The fish zole tabs dissolve readily enough in warm water; I've used them to treat the whole coop, in their drinker (an extra sticker on that bottle of pills has instructions that say 8 tabs per gallon of water for 5 days).
> ...


maybe this thread will help http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/how-do-i-give-a-pigeon-a-pill-7757.html


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> I can start with Fish Zole now, if she can drink it, or if I can figure out how to "pill" her.
> (I know I've read of administering pills in here, but my search-fu is not strong tonight).
> The Fish Zole I have is tablets, 250mg. of metronidazole.



The Metronidazole is usually quite bitter.

If it was me, I would just take one of the 250 mG Tablets, and, break it neatly into fourths.

I would give one fourth part now, being as it would be on the order of 60 mGs, thus, being a good dose for a 1st day...by simply opening her Beak, and, pushing the little Tablet-Part into the rear of her Throat, where, she will swallow.


If you do not know how to give a Pill, I have to wonder how well you did the Throat exam?

I will add some info at the end here which will make both much easier, and, also allow you a means of holding the Bird if you do end up Tube Feeding her.




> The fish zole tabs dissolve readily enough in warm water; I've used them to treat the whole coop, in their drinker (an extra sticker on that bottle of pills has instructions that say 8 tabs per gallon of water for 5 days).
> I also have some 250g metronidazole tabs (already quartered) left over from a Rx for one of my cats (who, interestingly, got 1/4 tab/day).



Well, do the math for how much Water one Tab would do...use the ACV-Water for dissolving the Tablet in...and see if she will drink it...just divide the One-Tab-worth of Water into four parts, and, see to it she drinks all of one of those in a reasonable time...adding plain regular ACV-Water to it to get any missed dregs for further drinking sipping times...use a tiny 'Cup' or condiment side to-go 'cup' ( any Mexican food place has them in stacks by the cash register, or on the condiment Bar, which is where I get mine! Lol ).



> I have a syringe that goes up to 14cc or 1/2 oz with a tiered "business end" and another of similar size that's not graduated, but has a softer, curved tip.



Uhhh, not so good...get the 'right' thing...do it right. For prudence sake, you need to be able to put Liquids and soon, thin formula, into her Crop's lower area directly.

Or, take a gamble and maybe loose.

I prefer to have as few gambles as possible, myself.




> Little Bar weighs 290 grams, according to my food scale. She seems about medium size compared to the other just-graduated-from-squeaker YBs... (posting this so I don't lose the info).
> 
> I'll take away the dish of small seeds (a finch mix, which is all I could get) and only offer her water when I check on her...
> 
> Now, to hunt for instructions on pilling a pigeon.



Sit down...have a small Hand-Towel...sit next to a bright Lamp.


Have her Legs flat back, against her Tail.

Have the small Towel folded in half, long ways across your legs just behind your knees, legs together.

Lay the Pigeon with their Legs flat against their Tail, facing you, into the center of the 'trough' there, on the small folded Towel.

Press her down gently so Legs do not change position.

Fold the left half of the Towel closely over her.

Fold the right half of the Towel closely over her.

Now you have a 'Burrito Bird'.


Spigot the Burrito Bird between your Legs, just behind your knees, so your Legs are holding them by pressing lightly against their Tail or Belly and Tail area. This will not squish them then, and, the extra Towel material allows a sure hold for the Bird to be spigoted straight up vertically.

Under a good light then, you can inspect Throats, adminster 'pills', or, if need be, do Tube Feedings ( once having rehersed them here in discussion ).

This allows both Hands to be free, and is easy and comfortable for the Bird.


If the Bird is open Beak breathing and liable to imminent respiratory crisis, this procedure can over stress them, and at that point, so would anything else...


So, for now, one way or the other, I would say begin the 'fishzole' or Metronidazole anyway, and let her have a good start for now with what you have to work with.

get the other things tomorrow..!


Good luck!


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Lokota, thanks for the link... I got a quarter-tab of metronidazole into her, and she drank a few sips ACV-water after it. She did _not_ like being a pijjie-burrito, though. And I was afraid of getting the pill down her "sunday throat" but it seems it went to the right place. I just hope I will not totally lose her trust with this pilling. She's one of the pij who will eat 'treat' seeds from my hand...

A few minutes later, she vomited some seeds from this afternoon, but not the chunk of pill (guess it dissolved quick enough). Since she vomited again, should I still give her another quarter pill in 15 minutes? I've taken away the seed & water as recommended...

ETA: more of the same green slimy poo, but the urates seem whiter now


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> If you do not know how to give a Pill, I have to wonder how well you did the Throat exam?


As well as possible, the light was good and she was reasonably cooperative ... however, opening beak and having a good look is not quite the same as opening the beak and inserting object, being careful not to mis-place it. 



> > I have a syringe that goes up to 14cc or 1/2 oz with a tiered "business end" and another of similar size that's not graduated, but has a softer, curved tip.
> 
> 
> Uhhh, not so good...get the 'right' thing...do it right. For prudence sake, you need to be able to put Liquids and soon, thin formula, into her Crop's lower area directly.
> ...


Right. I was just listing the inventory on hand, so I can do whatever I can right away, since it will be lunchtime tomorrow until I get to Foy's and I'll be lucky if I'm back here by midafternoon. I hope they have all the stuff I need; I'll probably check online and e-mail Jerry so I don't just turn up there out of nowhere.

Should I give her another quarter-pill tonight yet?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


Uhhhhhhhhhh...instead, maybe just give another 1/4 Tab in the morning...and that would compensate for the first dose maybe having been partly Vomited out.

There may well be a Candida Crop issue going on, so, the 'Medistatin' should begin soon as you can get to 'Foys' and get home again.

You can gently massage her Crop and it's lower areas with or between your finger pads...gently...which can help loosen clogged stuck together Seeds she may be happier to also Vomit out. 

The more old Seeds or whatever else in there she can throw up, the better.

Any chance she could have eaten any sort of odd non Seed thing? Foreign Object in Crop can also make for these same symptoms....and, occasion Canker and Candida infections.


ACV-Water will help with Candida, but, Medistatin is faster and better.


Any further exam details to relay on the 'lump'?


Best wishes..!


Phil
Lv


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

rfboyer said:


> As well as possible, the light was good and she was reasonably cooperative ... however, opening beak and having a good look is not quite the same as opening the beak and inserting object, being careful not to mis-place it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you should hold off giving more and when you do go to foys tell them the symtoms of your bird as they might know better how to help you when picking out the best meds for your bird since they have been doing this for a good while now  it never hurts to get another opinion


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

So...the thing is, being able to do the 'Burrito Bird' wrap, and have them 'Spigoted' so they and you are comfortable, you have both hands free, and can then open a Beak to really see well way into their Throat.

This is a good skill to have.

If one is even possibly going to have to manage Tube Feedings, it is best if this skill is practiced first...especially if Throat/Esophagal lesions or debris issues are present.


Comes in handy thereafter, too, of course.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> maybe just give another 1/4 Tab in the morning...and that would compensate for the first dose maybe having been partly Vomited out.
> 
> There may well be a Candida Crop issue going on, so, the 'Medistatin' should begin soon as you can get to 'Foys' and get home again. You can gently massage her Crop and it's lower areas with or between your finger pads...gently...which can help loosen clogged stuck together Seeds she may be happier to also Vomit out. The more old Seeds or whatever else in there she can throw up, the better.
> 
> ...


There doesn't seem to be a lump anymore... Her crop feels pretty empty and when I feel it, there's nothing hard there. When she tucks her head down into her shoulders, her neck bumps out and looks like a lump, but I can't feel "stuff" in her crop now the way I did before. 
I can't think of anything she might have eaten in the coop, other than seed or grit, unless it would be a feather or corn cob litter. 

She drinks a little ACV water whenever I dabble my finger in the dish, but otherwise doesn't seem interested in it (perhaps because it's way past her usual bedtime?) I hope she rests well tonight, but also hope she doesn't resist me too much in the morning when it's time for the next pill... 

thanks for your good wishes; I'm anxious since this is the first time I've had a pij sick enough to have to come into the house...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Robin...metronidazole tends to make birds vomit. If you give her a drop of pepto bismo first to coat her crop, that will help.
I buy this product...
http://www.jedds.com/-strse-523/MEDITRICH-100-tablets-(Medpet)/Detail.bok

I like it because it is coated and doesn't make them sick. It also cut in halves or quarters very nicely.
Personally, I would wait 24 hours before giving her any more metronidazole.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,





rfboyer said:


> There doesn't seem to be a lump anymore...




Oh good! That is some very good news there...


This does not mean she does not have some lesions or inflamitory debris there, but, it does suggest some previous Seeds were trapped there, or, some earlier regurgitation efforts may have seen some Seeds trapped there temporarily.




> Her crop feels pretty empty and when I feel it, there's nothing hard there.



Also good to hear...ideally, we would want no solid food or Seeds or anything in her Crop now but Meds, and, Water.




> When she tucks her head down into her shoulders, her neck bumps out and looks like a lump, but I can't feel "stuff" in her crop now the way I did before.
> I can't think of anything she might have eaten in the coop, other than seed or grit, unless it would be a feather or corn cob litter.



Okay...




> She drinks a little ACV water whenever I dabble my finger in the dish, but otherwise doesn't seem interested in it (perhaps because it's way past her usual bedtime?)


She may well be sufficiently hydrated...





> I hope she rests well tonight, but also hope she doesn't resist me too much in the morning when it's time for the next pill...


She will find out who's Boss anyway...



> thanks for your good wishes; I'm anxious since this is the first time I've had a pij sick enough to have to come into the house...



Well, it is very good you caught this when you did...you have a good start now, and, tomorrow will be the other needed Meds and continued regimen things.


I see this syndrome a lot, and, I have my own ways of dealing with it, which would be in my case, to only Tube in Meds and Fluids, and, if all is passing well enough, then thin formula...and hope it passes well enough...and this for a business week or more, before allowing only smallest whole Seeds.

There is often adhering inflamitory debris arising from Lesions in their upper or mid digestive tract...all it takes then is one Seed, and it can clog them up unto a fatal result...if already quite a bit clogged, even formula can make it worse, hence all my annoying advocacy of method and prudence in respect to that, with anything in the ballpark of this syndrome.


You might want to consider that your other Birds, or whatever Birds have had access to the same Water or have been kept in the same free roving enclose...that they or some of them anyway, could have this condition at whatever stage of advance, also.



Phil
Lv


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

Charis said:


> Robin...metronidazole tends to make birds vomit. If you give her a drop of pepto bismo first to coat her crop, that will help.
> I buy this product...
> http://www.jedds.com/-strse-523/MEDITRICH-100-tablets-(Medpet)/Detail.bok
> 
> ...


listen to charis she is a woman of true wizdom here


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


Of course, make sure those thrown up Seeds are removed from her Cage situation. We do not want her pecking any of them if she feels hungry.



Hi Charis and Lokotaloft, 


If you give Pepto Bismal to 'coat' the inside of the upper GI, when there are possibly open Lesions in it, the Pepto Bismal will yes, 'soothe' the Crop and upper GI, while also PREVENTING the Orally adminstered Medications from topically reaching the very Lesions the Medicine is being given to address.

The Metronidazole will reach the infection/infestation Lesion sites systemically by being carried in the Bloodstream, yes, once it gets down far enough for assimilation and distribution to occur...but it is far better if it is allowed to also reach them instantly, topically, to whatever degree they can, within the Crop and Proventriculus and Gizzard themselves.

Canker and Candida can cause Pigeons to "Throw up"...as can injuries to the Crop from other causes.

Crops sensitized from either, poised to Throw up regardless, having fermenting rotting toxic Seeds not passing, which are best if they are Thrown Up, such Pigeons may tend to appear to Throw Up from having had Metronidazole adminstered as if the Metronidazole did it...or, the Metronidazole is just one more added stimulous which can sometimes preceed or precipitate a much needed Throw Up, for a Pigeon so poised. This is fine, let the Bird Throw Up.


Once having the 'Medistatin', the Medistatin itself seems to soothe the Crop against further Throw Ups...even as having Thrown Up the last of the old static Seeds will.

As it is, it was best that the Pigeon did Throw Up, for getting any lingering old nasty fermenting slimey toxic brew Seeds OUT of there..!


Lol...


Worked out fine the way it was.


Make sense?


Same would be true if using or about to use 'Medistatin', one would not want the upper GI 'coated' in Pepto Bismal.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Canker and Candida can casue Pigeons to "Throw up"...as can injuries to the Crop from other causes.
> Once having the 'Medistatin', the Medistatin itself seems to soothe the Crop against further Throw Ups...even as having Thrown Up the last of the old statc Seeds will. As it is, it was best that the Pigeon did Throw Up, for getting any lingering old nasty fermenting slimey toxic brew Seeds OUT of there.
> 
> Of course, make sure those thrown up Seeds are removed from her Cage situation. We do not want her pecking any of them if she feels hungry.


The thrown up seeds are gone; she was a good sport and barfed them all in one pile onto the paper towel lining the box she's roosting in, which has already been changed twice since. 

Since her crop is empty, I've left her the ACV water available, but outside the box she's sitting in. She'll have to hop out of the box to get it, but she knows it's there. Since I'm up so late, I'm sure she will be awake long before I am in the morning, and I don't want her to go thirsty, since she has to go hungry... 

OK, I'm planning to get Medistatin/Nystatin, more Metronidazole, Albon/Sulmet, Ivermec/Bayverm, and possibly Ronidazole, since I've read advice from many sources about the effectiveness of alternating the "Zole" meds. 

I will get some formula; should it be the same stuff as is used for squeakers, or something different? Will tube feeding be necessary if she keeps liquid and/or formula down, and is willing to eat/drink? She doesn't seem to have difficulty swallowing. I have some finch mix that's tiny seeds...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 




rfboyer said:


> The thrown up seeds are gone; she was a good sport and barfed them all in one pile onto the paper towel lining the box she's roosting in, which has already been changed twice since.



Sounds good...



> Since her crop is empty, I've left her the ACV water available, but outside the box she's sitting in. She'll have to hop out of the box to get it, but she knows it's there. Since I'm up so late, I'm sure she will be awake long before I am in the morning, and I don't want her to go thirsty, since she has to go hungry...



Sounds good as well...

Since she is able to pass Liquids alright, let her drink as she pleases.


If it is warm or hot where you are, a concentration of say 3 or 3-1/2 Tablespoons of the ACV to a Gallon of water should be good.

If in a cool clime, maybe try for 4 if she will abide it.



> OK, I'm planning to get Medistatin/Nystatin, more Metronidazole, Albon/Sulmet, Ivermec/Bayverm, and possibly Ronidazole, since I've read advice from many sources about the effectiveness of alternating the "Zole" meds.



I would not think this Bird, for being so young, would have a Worm problem, or enough of one to underlie her present condition.

But, if she seems strong, you could Worm, but, it will be a strain on her, and she is under a lot of strain already.


This does not appear to resemble Coccidosis.


If you wish for a second Anti-Protozoal, consider 'Spartrix', which is Carnidazole.

And if you want, rotate those.





> I will get some formula; should it be the same stuff as is used for squeakers, or something different?



KT is the usual resort...same product one uses for infants or Babys.


Figure to mix it using the ACV-Water...and, to make it thin and runny.

Mix it, freeze it, thaw it out, adjust consistency if need be, warm it, then feed it.

Do not mix and feed at the same time...you want the formula to be entirely hydrated, or else it can make a big slippery and impermiable "slug" in the Bird's Crop and clog or kill them, especially in her condition.




> Will tube feeding be necessary if she keeps liquid and/or formula down, and is willing to eat/drink? She doesn't seem to have difficulty swallowing. I have some finch mix that's tiny seeds...



I do not think you have understood what I was describing in previous Posts.

I would not risk it...I do not risk it on Pigeons I am treating for these symptoms.

Please re-read prior Posts in which the reason was explained.

If there is inflamitory debris in her digestive system...even small Seeds could make for a lethal complication you will not be able to remedy.


There is not much room for error with these things...so I feel it is best for the safety and recovery of the Bird, to err on the side of caution and safe practice, even if it may seem a little inconvenient for the Care Giver.



Best wishes,


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

This could be 'Worms' too...Wormstew...may as well ask at 'Foys' what their gentlest Wormer is.

If it is not too bad a strain in their opinion, go for the Gusto on that, as well.


Good luck Robin!


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

This morning she seems more alert, but I don't know whether that's due to it being daytime, having had _some_ rest, or having got rid of the junk in her crop. 
She did barf a few more seeds overnight, but they weren't yucky and slimy like the earlier ones. 
Poops same colors as pic in first post, but more urates and less green slime. 
She retched a little while I was with her this morning, but produced nothing... just now she weighs 279g, down from 290 last night. I guess she didn't drink much water yet. 


Phil, thanks for the additional information. I wasn't sure whether there was more than one kind of formula, and I'm still not sure I completely understand about the crop being unable to tolerate even small seeds, but I believe you. I would never have guessed about freezing and then thawing mixed formula to alter the consistency. 

The "not much room for error" part is scary; for me, this isn't about inconvenience, but about inadvertently doing something "wrong" enough, due to inexperience, to cause injury, or do more harm than good.

Some of the items on my shopping list are for "stock" and not for immediate use, unless they end up being needed right away.

Foy's website says they're out of Spartrix... I could order that online elsewhere, if necessary; is that better than the other "zole" meds? I've read that Dimetridazole (sp?) is the least forgiving of dose errors, so I will probably avoid that. They do have metronidazole and ronidazole; not sure if any of the other items they list are made of carnidazole.

Thanks again, to everyone who responded to my request for advice; this is the first time I've tried to treat a sick bird and it's scary... 
I'm about to leave for Foy's, will post update later this afternoon.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Robin,
> 
> 
> Of course, make sure those thrown up Seeds are removed from her Cage situation. We do not want her pecking any of them if she feels hungry.
> ...


LOL...
Sorry Phil...one drop does make a huge difference because metronidazole can make birds puke.... so do many antibiotics if given on an empty crop. A drop of pepto makes all the difference.... actually think I learned this from reading one of Pidgey's posts. Since I have read the suggestion by several avian veterinarians..Of course the very best would be to have a quailified veterinay professional evaluate the bird's condition rather than us making guesses.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> This morning she seems more alert, but I don't know whether that's due to it being daytime, having had _some_ rest, or having got rid of the junk in her crop.



Well, she did get at least some of, or most of, a dose of the 'Fishzole' last night too...probably helped!

Did you do dose No. 2 this morning?

If not, a.s.a.p. on that, would be good.



> She did barf a few more seeds overnight, but they weren't yucky and slimy like the earlier ones.


And...'Medistatin'...a.s.a.p.



> Poops same colors as pic in first post, but more urates and less green slime.
> She retched a little while I was with her this morning, but produced nothing... just now she weighs 279g, down from 290 last night. I guess she didn't drink much water yet.



They will drop some weight with this condition/illness...once over it, weight will be re-gained.




> Phil, thanks for the additional information. I wasn't sure whether there was more than one kind of formula, and I'm still not sure I completely understand about the crop being unable to tolerate even small seeds, but I believe you. I would never have guessed about freezing and then thawing mixed formula to alter the consistency.



Infection sites or Lesions can produce an inflamitory debris kind of like 'Tofu'...it adheres to the inner walls of the passageways of their upper digestive system, and can cause a 'Dam'...especially if Seeds pile up against it.

Thin, well hydrated 'Formula' is usually the best bet for their nutrition/food, untill one is satisfied the dangerous phase has passed well enough, for such debris to have been released and passed down their digestive system, and no longer adhering.

In some instances, I fear to even use thin formula, and will use or insist on non-particulate Liquid Foods instead.




> The "not much room for error" part is scary; for me, this isn't about inconvenience, but about inadvertently doing something "wrong" enough, due to inexperience, to cause injury, or do more harm than good.



Yes...same concern I have. It is the nature of the condition the Bird is in, which narrows the margain for getting away with faux-pas or goof ups or indifferent impositions if one wishes for a satisfying outcome.




> Some of the items on my shopping list are for "stock" and not for immediate use, unless they end up being needed right away.


Ahhh, good idea...




> Foy's website says they're out of Spartrix... I could order that online elsewhere, if necessary; is that better than the other "zole" meds? I've read that Dimetridazole (sp?) is the least forgiving of dose errors, so I will probably avoid that. They do have metronidazole and ronidazole; not sure if any of the other items they list are made of carnidazole.


Emtryl ( Dimetridazole )...is greatly less forgiving as for dosage...but, is a good Medicine, regardless. Mostly one would be concerned for infants or very young Babys, but, even then, light to moderate over doses can cause temporary nervous system jitters or co-ordination troubles, but soon pass with no legacy.

Metronidazole should be fine...and, if you like, Ronidazole, also...and they are both very forgiving for dosage.




> Thanks again, to everyone who responded to my request for advice; this is the first time I've tried to treat a sick bird and it's scary...
> I'm about to leave for Foy's, will post update later this afternoon.



Good luck today...!


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> LOL...
> Sorry Phil...one drop does make a huge difference because metronidazole can make birds puke.... so do many antibiotics if given on an empty crop. A drop of pepto makes all the difference.... actually think I learned this from reading one of Pidgey's posts. Since I have read the suggestion by several avian veterinarians..Of course the very best would be to have a quailified veterinay professional evaluate the bird's condition rather than us making guesses.



...sigh...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

OK, I'm back with the goods... I wasn't expecting the local Medicine Shoppe to have the catheter tubing, but they did... and I got all the other meds mentioned at Foys. 

Meanwhile, Little Bar made a small poop similar to the others, and when I came in and reminded her what the water looks like, took a good guzzle. 
Then, a few minutes later, barfed it back up, along with a few (maybe 5) seeds. 
Had I known what was going on with her, I would not have let her have so many "pigeon treats" yesterday at lunch time.  

If any of you good folks have them handy, I'd appreciate links to the threads where instructions for preparing tubing are (I've seen them, but didn't bookmark them, since I didn't expect to have to do this...)

Should the first thing be to give Medistatin in hopes of calming her digestion, and then more Metronidazole, give them together, or separately? 

The Kaytee formula is coming home with my husband and I will prepare a batch and freeze it as Phil instructed as soon as it gets here.

Thanks in advance for all the help; I hope I can do this right...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> OK, I'm back with the goods... I wasn't expecting the local Medicine Shoppe to have the catheter tubing, but they did... and I got all the other meds mentioned at Foys.
> 
> Meanwhile, Little Bar made a small poop similar to the others, and when I came in and reminded her what the water looks like, took a good guzzle.
> Then, a few minutes later, barfed it back up, along with a few (maybe 5) seeds.
> ...



Hi Robin, 

I will post some images and info in a few minutes on preparing the 'Tube'.


She will drink the Medistatin ( uhhh, hence, with-hold water for her to be thirsty to do so)..it tastes good.

It's purpose is to stop the probable Candida which typically accompanies these symptoms and adds to their clogging, non-passing Crop, and throwing up.

I really want her to throw up any and all old Seeds, as much as possible, but, not to where we are dragging our feet too much...so, I would say -

Do today's Metronidazole oral administration now...with-hold water...


And, in an hour or so, let her drink some Medistatin Water.


The single Bird mix-dose should be on the 'Medistatin' Cannister.

If not, I can let you know.


For now, take a Tea Cup or small Coffee Cup...and put in a couple or three Tablespoons of the KT...add enough ACV-Water to cover it with 1/2 inch of Water over it...let sit for like fifteen minutes, then stirr.

You want a consistency like Melted Ice Cream on a hot day.

Freeze it for a little while, later, thaw by setting into a Saucepan of warm water, with a Lid on it. Adjust consistency then.


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Progress report: 
I gave Little Bar a quarter pill of the metronidazole, and she kept it down for about 10-15 minutes before vomiting (apparently the ACV water she drank earlier, and a few pill bits, but not enough to amount to the size of what I gave her (I'm an incorrigible optimist...) How soon should I try another piece?

Medistatin is mixed & ready to give; the Kaytee gruel is in process... 

She seems a little more alert than yesterday, but I don't know if that's because her crop is not being aggravated by the yucky seeds anymore, or if she's cross on account of being a burrito. She walks around on the floor a little, and is not just sitting on the warm side of the box, so I hope that is a good sign. 

A question: If she doesn't want to drink much of the ACV water with the medistatin in it, should I try doing the "dribble it a few drops at a time along her beak" thing to get more of it into her? (assuming she can keep it down -- I'm figuring that if she feels nauseous, she may be leery of drinking it no matter how good it tastes)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Progress report:
> I gave Little Bar a quarter pill of the metronidazole, and she kept it down for about 10-15 minutes before vomiting (apparently the ACV water she drank earlier, and a few pill bits, but not enough to amount to the size of what I gave her (I'm an incorrigible optimist...) How soon should I try another piece?



Just wait like a half hour say, and, give what you figure to be an amount which will equal what was lost.

This phase should soon pass...but, for now, if she can throw up any remaining Seeds in her Crop, it is for the best.

You can gently massage between finger tip pads, her lower Crop...helping to loosen up and stuck Seeds there...Seeds can get stuck in goo or in other adhesive material incidental to the illness/inflammation.




> Medistatin is mixed & ready to give; the Kaytee gruel is in process...



Cool...



> She seems a little more alert than yesterday, but I don't know if that's because her crop is not being aggravated by the yucky seeds anymore, or if she's cross on account of being a burrito. She walks around on the floor a little, and is not just sitting on the warm side of the box, so I hope that is a good sign.



Last night's "Metronidazole" is very likely helping...




> A question: If she doesn't want to drink much of the ACV water with the medistatin in it,



I may have inadvertanly mis-spoke or made an ambiguity - 

The Medistatin would be best mixed with Plain Water.

ACV-Water for incidental drinking, and, for Formula Mixing.




> ...should I try doing the "dribble it a few drops at a time along her beak" thing to get more of it into her? (assuming she can keep it down -- I'm figuring that if she feels nauseous, she may be leery of drinking it no matter how good it tastes)



Just let her go a little while with no drinking...and, she will drink the Medistatin-Water once she is thirsty again.

I have never seen one who would not.

Taste it your self...has a nice sweet flavor to it...Birds like it.

She seems to have been fairly well hydrated, which is very, very good.


How about some images of to-day's poops?


Anyway, figure a trial feed later this afternoon.

I have to finish some Work here, and, then I will post some images and info for you on the how-to for that.

She can wait till then for the formula, allowing this last sort of 'Window' for throwing up any old Seeds left...

Once you start the 'Medistatin' the throwing up phase will likely draw to a close, and, any nasty old seeds in there will soon begin to get passed on down to and passed the Gizzard ( assuming no foreign object underlie all this ) which is risky...but, sooner or later, the meds will be permitting this, and, sooner or later you have to feed her, so, this is how it is.



So, do some gentle 'massaging' of the lower Crop betwen finger pads, give the partial Metronidazole dose...drag your feet a little while before the 'Medistatin'...and things will go from there then.


We could ( you could ) just use purely Liquid foods with no suspended solids in them, for a few days...allowing less risk of old Seeds clogging things farther down as they pass from particulae Formula 'solids' damming up against small ways around....buying more time for the Meds to allow a release of any inflamitory debris, and, allowing a subsiding of any lesions in her digestive tract.

We know she passes water just fine, so we can feel sure whe would manage liquid Foods just fine.

Formula of course is small size solids...a subtle but sometimes meaningful difference.

If you would prefer to do this, being it is a slightly safer thing to do for satisfying her need for sustinance...it can be done with 'Nutrical' ( any Petsmart, in the puppy kitten isle ) and, unsweetened Black Cherry oe Elderberry Juice, or, if you have a Juicer, Juice from fresh Greens like a mix of Celery, Chard, Endive, Cilantro.

That is what I do if I have worries about this phase of things, for this syndrome.


Back in a couple hours...gotta finish some Work things here.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Robin, 


If you do have any access to a friendly Vet of any sort...an injection of 'Reglan' would be a nice, and, appropriate addition to her present regimen.

It can help relax the passageways of the upper GI...and bring down inflammaed tissues.



If no access to a friendly Vet is possible, consider to get some plain 'Ceyanne' Pepper, ground fine...most Grocery ( ethnic spice section, usually like $1.25 for a cellophane baggy with a cardboard top ) or Health Food Stores ( sold in bulk, by the ounce, and inexpensive ) will have it.

This, added in modest amounts, can similarly help relax passageways, reduce inflammation, and also improve capillay circulation, helping to carry medicines better through the Bloodstream.


I have to leave now for a while, back soon.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Just wait like a half hour say, and, give what you figure to be an amount which will equal what was lost.
> This phase should soon pass...but, for now, if she can throw up any remaining Seeds in her Crop, it is for the best.
> You can gently massage between finger tip pads, her lower Crop...helping to loosen up and stuck Seeds there...Seeds can get stuck in goo or in other adhesive material incidental to the illness/inflammation.


I've given her a piece about half the size of a quarter pill, and she hasn't thrown up after about half an hour. While I had her in the burrito to give the pill, I lightly massaged her crop until she started to squirm a lot, and could still feel a few small things that I guess are seeds, but they move around and don't seem stuck together. I hope that is better than worse... 



> I may have inadvertanly mis-spoke or made an ambiguity -
> The Medistatin would be best mixed with Plain Water.
> ACV-Water for incidental drinking, and, for Formula Mixing.
> 
> ...


OK, I'll remix a new medistatin/water. Poop pic below, pretty similar to the ones from yesterday, but not as much liquid puddle (sorry about the reflections off the floor; the urates aren't as dark as they look on my monitor, but I had to shoot it where it lay). 











> Anyway, figure a trial feed later this afternoon.
> She can wait till then for the formula, allowing this last sort of 'Window' for throwing up any old Seeds left... drag your feet a little while before the 'Medistatin'...and things will go from there then.
> 
> We could (you could) just use purely Liquid foods with no suspended solids in them, for a few days...allowing less risk of old Seeds clogging things farther down as they pass from particulae Formula 'solids' damming up against small ways around....buying more time for the Meds to allow a release of any inflamitory debris, and, allowing a subsiding of any lesions in her digestive tract.
> We know she passes water just fine, so we can feel sure whe would manage liquid Foods just fine. Formula of course is small size solids...a subtle but sometimes meaningful difference.


I don't have access to the veggies and juices to go with the nutrical, but would honey be helpful in the water? I recall reading recommendations of it, just to provide some calories, in other situations, but don't know if it carries through...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> I've given her a piece about half the size of a quarter pill, and she hasn't thrown up after about half an hour. While I had her in the burrito to give the pill, I lightly massaged her crop until she started to squirm a lot, and could still feel a few small things that I guess are seeds, but they move around and don't seem stuck together. I hope that is better than worse...


Well...not much we can do about any old Seeds which have not been thrown up...so...

Bear in mind, their not passing, is a sign of problems further down.




> OK, I'll remix a new medistatin/water. Poop pic below, pretty similar to the ones from yesterday, but not as much liquid puddle (sorry about the reflections off the floor; the urates aren't as dark as they look on my monitor, but I had to shoot it where it lay).



Okay...if all goes well, these poops should be looking a lot better, soon. Just looks like Bile, and spent Leucocyte Urates presently...and some 'syrup'...and Bubbles...




> I don't have access to the veggies and juices to go with the nutrical, but would honey be helpful in the water? I recall reading recommendations of it, just to provide some calories, in other situations, but don't know if it carries through...



If you can get 'Nutrical' ( sometimes has a slightly different name now ) then, it can be used as is, or, added to the formula.


Otherwise then, it is looking like we either just feed 'Nutrical' ( I would not bother adding any Honey, it would not help and could hurt )...for a day or two, since when dissolved in a little Water ( takes a lot of stirring! ) it is a true "Liquid" and no suspended solids. Then after a couple days, of the meds getting to work, we move on to thin formula.


Or, we feed thin formula, which is suspended fine solids, and, hope that passes alright.


Trouble is, if it does not, you are kinda in a bad situation then, since further meds will not pass, either.


Think about this a little while, and I will see about making the Tube Feeding images.


I kinda vote for just feeding the Nutrical for a day or two, just to bide some time for the meds to have a chance to be improving things.

When you see or feel that those last of the old Seeds have passed...be looking for "those" poops then, after some hours.

When those 'Seed' provenance poops appear, you are in the clear for formula to be used safely, and, after a few more days, small whole Seeds for her to peck.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Link to casual Album of images, representing how to prepare the Syringe Catheter for Tube Feeding.


Images have explainitory Captions.


Syringe should be a 'plain end', 10 cc kind.

Catheter should be a 'Luer End' ( so it may fit tightly onto the Syringe's plain-end 'snout' ), No. 8 French, Pediatric Urinary kind, ideally of clear, soft Silicone composition.

http://community.webshots.com/album/578005139kkdMDX?vhost=community


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I was just reminded by a good friend, that Anti-Biotics may sometimes be a good thing to also use in cases like this.


Ideally, a good broad spectrum Anti-Biotic would be elected.

I have pulled many Pigeons through this syndrome, with only the old 'Emtryl', and, stout ACV-Water...and having them 'sip' on their own volition, Fresh Juices and Nurtical and then thin formula once ready, since I did not know how to tube feed yet.

Later in time, Metronidazole, and Medistatin, proved better and or easier.

And Tube Feeding became a tremendous asset to have.

Often, no Anti-Biotic would be needed for this syndrome, but, sometimes it is, and it is hard to tell which from which at this stage or phase.

So, Robin, if you are not sick and tired of Shopping and peeling off the Greenbacks yet, or, if you happen to have on hand -


Cipro/Batryl/Enroflaxin...or...'DIVIT', one of those would be a reasonable thing to add to the regimin.

I just hate to see too many things getting piled up for you!


My mental Model of the Bird's condition is that of a Canker infection/infestation, possibly having several upper GI locations.

And, with this, a secondary or opportunistic Candida infection.

And, possibly, a pre-existing Worm issue, though I do not think that is very likely, it could be...and it should not be treated untill we are confident in her digestive system's ability to pass and expell 'solids' such as wads or 'Mops' of Worms would be.


The syndrome usually would not involve or invite Bacterial problems, and, the ACV-Water would have been helping reduce that risk for the upper GI Tract...


But, Bacterial problems can happen with this broader condition, or could have been present prior to the condition reaching this point.

Since you have other Birds, and, possibly other Birds in earlier phases of this same or other complaint...no harm if you were to get some Antibiotics, and have them on hand anyway...and, you could consider to use them for this occasion, just to be as thorough as possible.

Being as thorough as possible is a fine choice to make when one can do so.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Today's shopping is done... it's 9:30pm here and everything except Walmart & Giant Eagle (grocery store) is closed for the day. I just obtained some Nutrical at PetSmart-- for some reason I was expecting powder, but it is gel similar to Petromalt. Hope I have the right stuff. 

My brain is getting full; what I need to do is take all the information and organize it as a chart; I'm getting lost in the words... and I'm not sure what should come first. 

The antibiotics I have on hand are Sulmet (which I got earlier) and a few Clavamox 62.5 mg tabs (leftover from a cat's Rx). I also have a pill splitter that works well enough. I don't have any "people" antibiotics because I'm a "good patient" and take the whole program when I'm prescribed them.

Little Bar has not vomited since I last posted, has made another poop similar to the one in my last post, and has drunk some of the medistatin water. It's available to her to drink as she will (let me know if I should only let her drink it while supervised). I think she's ready to tuck in, she went into the box where she "roosts" and is standing on the "warm" side. 

I'm planning to check on her every hour or so for the next several; should I be trying to give her anything else? When should she get another dose of metronidazole? The new ones I got today are 60mg tabs, and rather smaller than the 250mg ones.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Today's shopping is done... it's 9:30pm here and everything except Walmart & Giant Eagle (grocery store) is closed for the day. I just obtained some Nutrical at PetSmart-- for some reason I was expecting powder, but it is gel similar to Petromalt. Hope I have the right stuff.



Yes...it is a Brown "Goo"...




> My brain is getting full; what I need to do is take all the information and organize it as a chart; I'm getting lost in the words... and I'm not sure what should come first.


I will make a list in a following Post of steps and procedures, and sequence.




> The antibiotics I have on hand are Sulmet (which I got earlier) and a few Clavamox 62.5 mg tabs (leftover from a cat's Rx). I also have a pill splitter that works well enough. I don't have any "people" antibiotics because I'm a "good patient" and take the whole program when I'm prescribed them.



Okay...



> Little Bar has not vomited since I last posted, has made another poop similar to the one in my last post, and has drunk some of the medistatin water. It's available to her to drink as she will (let me know if I should only let her drink it while supervised). I think she's ready to tuck in, she went into the box where she "roosts" and is standing on the "warm" side.



It would depend on how stiff you made the Medistatin mix...as for how much of it she should drink.




> I'm planning to check on her every hour or so for the next several; should I be trying to give her anything else? When should she get another dose of metronidazole? The new ones I got today are 60mg tabs, and rather smaller than the 250mg ones.



See next Post...

Best wishes..!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


I assume or remember, she had her Metronidazole dose earlier to-day...and, she threw up some of it, but, not all of it?



If you feel that say half of it stayed with her...then, you could consider to give what would be a half dose, now-ish.


Have you reviewed the 'Tube Feeding' images of the Appliance?


If so, let me know, and, if you like, we can go over getting some 'Nutrical' into her.


Or, too, you could say, mix up one part Nutrical to like 1-1/2 Parts plain Water...warm it to about body temperature by having it sitting in warm Water, in like a Tea Cup...a Tea Cup sitting in a Sacuepan that has a couple inches of Warm Water in it.

Stirr untill dissolved well...and, see if she will drink it.

She might..and if she does, then she will be getting some much appreciated by her of Nourishment, Calories, Nutrition.


So, with-hold other Water sources for now...try mixing up say, a tablespoon worth of the 'Nutrical' into some half again as much Water as described...wait till she is thirsty...and, see if she will drink it.


If she does not, then we can consider to go over what is required to Tube in the same Solution...so, if she does not drink it, just cover it and put it in the Refrigerator.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Phil!

The medistatin water I made according to the instructions on the jar -- "1g powder per 20ml water; give 1ml of mixture per 100g body mass twice daily."

I made 40ml water with 2g of powder (served in a condiment cup to get depth, since I can't find my good shot glass; must hunt for it!)... and so far she's only drunk a good guzzle. Maybe I'd better take it away so she doesn't OD if she gets thirsty again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You could also just mix a day's worth of the Medistatin solution to also contain a good squig of 'Nutrical', thus alloweing her to drink a nutritious, caloric liquid which also addresses the Candida problems ( if present, but probably present in her upper GI ).

The solution you describe, she would only need 3 ML of the Solution, every 12 hours...or 6 mL over 24 Hours.

So, if you see what I mean...you can proportion her day's worth of Medistatin, 6 mL of the solution, to also include the dissolved 'Nutrical', and, if she drinks it this way, then, everybody is happy, and no fuss no muss, easy as Pie, and so on...and a nice way to go for now, for her to get some Calories and Nutients into her in a liquid form which pose no problem to compromises which may exist in her digestive system.

Maybe like one generous Tablespoon or so, if that, of the 'Nutrical', dissolved into the 6mL of the Medistatin solution, and just see to it she drinks that, over 24 hours or less.

If she will not drink it, we can go over the details of how to use the 'Tube'.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nutrical mixture is cooling; I had to heat it a little so it would dissolve. 
Have given "make-up" dose of metronidazole & removed medistatin cup.
A little vomit, but less volume than she drank. Bits in it look more like canker gunk than pill bits now; is that good or bad?
Reviewing tube instructions... but I really hope she's willing to drink the nutrical out of the cup... ::crosses fingers::


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Nutrical mixture is cooling; I had to heat it a little so it would dissolve.
> Have given "make-up" dose of metronidazole & removed medistatin cup.
> A little vomit, but less volume than she drank. Bits in it look more like canker gunk than pill bits now; is that good or bad?


Images of the throw up?



> Reviewing tube instructions... but I really hope she's willing to drink the nutrical out of the cup... ::crosses fingers::




She might...

I had to rely on their doing stuff like that for a long time, before I learned 
"The-Way-of-the-Tube"...Eeeeesh, talk about 'patience' and 'finesse'...hours of coaxing sometimes...Lol...

Yours might be easier!!


Lol...


You get one with a broken Jaw, or a bad Beak injury, well, 'sipping' is all you have to work with, for WEEKS even...you can not dare open the Beak for Mr. Tube to work his Blessings...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Little Bar drank a cc or two of the nutrical/water, by dribbles along her beak, about an hour ago (maybe? I gave it soon after my last post)
Seemed OK with it, but when I checked her just now, she'd both barfed and pooped; pic below. 
I see a turned-greenish safflower seed (I hope it is the last one) and an off-white clump of something that's not a seed in the barf; the rest seems to be nutrical. The last seeds thrown up earlier today were not greenish like this one... 








She now has a fresh box & fresh PT lining. 
I'm not sure whether/when to offer her more to drink. Maybe just leave her the ACV water for overnight?


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## Roller mike (Aug 5, 2009)

I had this same condition in some of my yb team, Treat with sulmet 2 table spoons per gallon, also take a water bottle add 1 heaping teaspoon of cinnamon fill the water bottle with hot tap water shake it up and filter it with a small screen to get the big chunks of cin. out, add all this to 1 gallon drinker, not sure why this works but it does.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Here is what I would like to try -

Has she been drinking close to normal amounts as far as you can tell?


You have 'Sulmet' I think.


Mix up a Quart worth of it, but, make it double strength.

If your "Sulmet" is the "12.5" concentration kind, then, this would be 15 Millilitres or mL of the 'Sulmet' Liquid itself, into a clean Quart Bottle then fill the rest of the way with good clean nice Water...shake gently, so all mixes well.

Take a wide black felt Pen, and write "SULMET - 2X" and date it with to-day's date.

I just mixed some up myself for a couple of Birds I have going.

I tasted it to see how it tastes, and it has about no taste at all.


This "2X" Mix will allow you to have a practical basis for her to have some of these Meds and Nutriments, by simple drinking...by allowing you to add a same amount or volume of other Liquids, as the 'Sulmet' solution Volume, to her Drinking Cup, for a day.


This way, the meds she needs for a 24 hour period ( which are in addition to the 'Metronidazole') , can all be on one day's Cup, for her to drink, and,m we can fit in a fair amount of 'Nutrical' also this way. If she drinks it all, great...if not quite all, good enough...if way short of all, then we have to find another way.

If she throws up a little, it will work out well enough regardless.

Where are you located?

I forgot.

Here, an average Pigeon now, will drink say 8 Ounces of Water a day...maybe more.

In a cooler less arid clime, a Pigeon would drink less...maybe a lot less.

Has your Pigeon been drinking, say, five Ounces of Water a 24 Hour period, do you think?


Anyway...


The metronidazole, you can still do easily by merely putting the Tablet or portion of it, into her Throat with a finger tip, for her to swallow.


The "Medistatin" has to be in Water.

Decide how much Medistatin powder...is right for 24 hours...or something 'close'...it is fairly forgiving.

Maybe the Medistatin solution you already made, can be used, since we are adding close to the same half-cup Volume of other things, as we have in her Cup of the 'Sulmet' solution of '2X'.


Skip the 'ACV' for now.


If you have a smallish Cup, say, something of about six Ounces...fill half way with the Sulmet "2X" solution.

Add three Tablespoons or so of the 'Nutrical'...

Add the Medistatin Powder, or already made Solution you have on hand, in an amount suited for 24 Hours worth.

Add enough plain Water then, for the Cup to be about full.

Stirr all, so all is well dissolved and mixed.

This should taste pretty good...and still be fairly 'thin' for consistency.


If she is willing to drink this, and to drink more or less all of it in 24 hours...then this is a good method for this occasion.

If not, then we will have to decide to get on with gentle Tube Feeding of nutrients...and or of the non-solid Meds also.

So, no worries...if the drinking thing is a no go, you will do fine with the Tube with our running over the details of it for you and her to be safe and easy with it.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I rather doubt she's drinking enough since before I brought her up here -- one of the reasons I noticed she didn't look good on Wednesday was that she just sat around in the aviary with her eyes half closed (which I understand to be indicative of dehydration) though she ate the safflower seeds eagerly enough when I offered them.

I'm just outside of Pittsburgh, PA -- and not sure how much any pigeon in particular drinks, but twenty two pij drink about half a gallon a day here. It is a lot more humid than the southwest. They also drink drips from the aviary screen when it rains, so maybe a small amount more than that. So, on average, they drink maybe 3 oz per pij (maybe a little more) per day? 

I'm thinking the 6 oz of this recipe would be 2 days' worth, unless it's necessary for her to drink more than 3 oz a day to conquer this illness... 

Does this need to be started now or can I wait until morning? (I'm beat from the stress of worry, and don't want to mismeasure anything)

ETA: I set her water back out, and she took a good guzzle, but leaned into it too far and got a snootful, and kind of snorted after that, though she seems OK. Also put a tiny nite-lite in the room with her, since it's totally black in there when I turn the lights out. It may not do anything for her, but will keep me from stepping on her if she is not in the box when I open the door.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What I do Robin, when getting in Pigeons who have roughly this set of symptoms.

Is to encourage or manage an evacuation of the Crop's fermenting and toxic contents, foul liquids, old seeds, whatever, and look for palpate for 'foreign objects' ( could be anything, part of a Leaf or Twig, metal object, chunk of French Fry, who knows ).

Tube in Medistatin and Metronidazole, and, possibly an anti-biotic...these with some rehydration Fluids...and wait for old poops to start coming out, and or wait to see how the Crop will pass the Liquids I have put in...or wait to see what happens next with them, anyway.

Some Crops are already passing Liquids fine, such as yours is.

Others can not even pass liquids initially.

Depending on details, I may also tube in liquid Foods for Calories and Nutrition/Nourishment, maybe 16 or 18 hours or 24 hours, after initiating the first phases of the Medicinal treatment...alternating then from meds, to liquid foods, on a 6 or 12 hour or so rotation, watching for details to advise me on what to adjust.

Prior to having facility with the 'Tube' I had to rely on the Bird 'sipping', and, this tended to do well in many instances, but, was sometimes tedious or barely adequate for amounts getting 'in', even though it worked well many times, instances.

The 'Tube' allows a positive administration of precise amounts of Meds, and, of Calorie-Nourishment liquids, or Formula, without having to rely on the conditions of the Bird drinking these.

If for them drinking these, one MUST with-hold other drinking opportunities...and, also has to guard the Bird does not knock the little Cup over if it is left with them, where, one then does not know what if any of it, they had actually drank, verses, spilled.

So, with this, one does best to offer drinking opportunities for the Medicine-Nutrients/Calories only, as an intentional event...one offers the Liquids to the Bird for them to drink, the Bird drinks because they are thirsty...and one sets the Cup aside in a safe place till next event of offering it, however soon that is, an hour or two at most, or whatever.


Like that.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> I rather doubt she's drinking enough since before I brought her up here -- one of the reasons I noticed she didn't look good on Wednesday was that she just sat around in the aviary with her eyes half closed (which I understand to be indicative of dehydration) though she ate the safflower seeds eagerly enough when I offered them.


Eyes half closed is not a good means of measuring dehydration...other things are, but...




> I'm just outside of Pittsburgh, PA -- and not sure how much any pigeon in particular drinks, but twenty two pij drink about half a gallon a day here. It is a lot more humid than the southwest. They also drink drips from the aviary screen when it rains, so maybe a small amount more than that. So, on average, they drink maybe 3 oz per pij (maybe a little more) per day?


Maybe...

Here, this time of year, 22 Pigeons would probably drink a Gallon and a Half in 24 hours.

Trying to work out concentrations for possibly vast vagueries on how much different Pigeons in different Aridities/Humidities and Temperatures will drink, will not be easy, Lol...for now, if her 'Soup' is a little stout, that is fine, we can fine tune it as we go.


Just mix up one 24 Hour period of Meds...so it is 4 Ounces.


See how that works for a 24 Hour period, we can adjust from there.



> I'm thinking the 6 oz of this recipe would be 2 days' worth, unless it's necessary for her to drink more than 3 oz a day to conquer this illness...



If she will indeed drink "3 Ounces" in 24 Hours...then, Meds enough for her weight, for 24 Hours, would need to be dissolved into 3 Ounces of Water.

For the "SULMET", this would be then .20 cc or ml...into the 3 Ounces of Nutrical and Medistain 'Soup'...for 24 Hours.

If you can do the 'Sulmet' directly, orally, with a tiny Syringe, then that is an option which will ensure she is getting enough.








> Does this need to be started now or can I wait until morning? (I'm beat from the stress of worry, and don't want to mismeasure anything)




If you have any 1 cc Syringes...see if you can get .10 cc of the Sulmet as it is in the Bottle, undiluted...into her Throat gently, now.

It would be good if the Antibiotic could be started now, before bed...if possible!


AND, IMPORTANTLY, pull her Water - NO WATER - so she will be "thirsty" for tomorrow morning, so you can have her drink her 'Soup'. Do not leave any Water in with her.

If she is to be drinking anything, it really needs to be the Meds-and-Nutrical 'Soup'.




> ETA: I set her water back out, and she took a good guzzle, but leaned into it too far and got a snootful, and kind of snorted after that, though she seems OK. Also put a tiny nite-lite in the room with her, since it's totally black in there when I turn the lights out. It may not do anything for her, but will keep me from stepping on her if she is not in the box when I open the door.


No more 'water'...she will get her Water in drinking the Medicines-Nutrical Solution.

Whatever drinking she will do, needs to be the mixture we have outlined and been discussing, or some version of it...not 'water'..! Or she will have no room for what she does need.


Best wishes!


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

*Sad Update*

When I got up this morning, Little Bar had died during the night.
She had vomited a few more seeds in the meantime, but otherwise seems to have passed peacefully.

I appreciate all the information and help; in future I plan to keep a closer eye on the YB (not many, only oops babies) especially... 
now I have most of what I need of "infirmary" supplies (still have to get a few stock items that Foy's was out of...) so I will be "ready" for the next problem.

I'm going to flock-treat against canker in the coop where Little Bar lived, unless advised otherwise. 
Are there any other "prevention" treatments I should be doing? 
ACV water is already given frequently, and occasionally "cinnamon tea" and garlic in the water.

Thanks again!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



I somehow knew it last night...and I was feeling vexed.

I can not think of anything we could have done differently which would have secured a better outcome.

You did great, and this condition has possibly many unseen interior issues we can only guess of, and, which I was worried were there.


I do think there is a Bacterial component to what we were dealing with, even if originally I was primarily focused on Canker lesions, 'lumps' and inflamiroty debris between Crop and Gizzard...complicated by probable Candida.


Do you have a friendly Vet you could appeal to for a few tests?


A Necropsy of the deceased Pigeon could be of some help...and if you wish to consider it, wrap the Bird in a Plastic Bag and refrigerate for now.


How may Birds to you have, all tolled?


Phil
Lv


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm so sorry she passed on.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks for your help, and condolences, Phil and Charis... I was really feeling unconfident today after losing Little Bar overnight. I kept thinking, "if only I'd been able to stay awake long enough to read Phil's later post last night, and got some sulmet into her..."  ... but I don't really know if it would have done more good than harm, so I will refrain from beating myself up.  

My cats' vets are quite friendly, but at most would be able to do fecal test and/or provide me with meds if I can explain (or persuade) well enough what is needed. I've already asked them, and they don't have experience with birds, nor could give me any referrals... but are not hostile to pigeons (they mentioned one of their friends/neighbors has a loft). I have a friend who keeps a parrot; I can ask if her vet will see pigeons.

More about my birds... there are about 2 dozen of them, and they live in one coop section of my neighbor Lou Arcuri's racing loft. He gave them to me, and I earn their board by helping look after his entire flock, numbering around 250 or so racing pigeons and a few white "droppers." The racers are predominantly "down from" Huyskens-Van Riel and Janssen lines (probably others too, but I haven't seen the documentation yet). 

Mine are last year's oops babies, their mates, and their parents, and two almost-youngbirds that my birds fostered this spring (sat the eggs & raised the squeakers) for another guy who helps out at the loft, and tends Lou's gardens. (Lou is 80, and in very frail health; if you pray, please include him). 

Until I can build my own coop & flypen (which I hope will be later this year) The birds in the other section of the coop are 28 or so former YB (2006 & 2007 bands mostly) who raced from this building; both sections are configured as YB racing loft, with plenty of box perches, but not nest boxes, so the birds nest on the floor. They have nest bowls, which is the best I can do for them at present... 

All the pigeons have been prisoners since the 2007 YB season, so far as I know, since Lou hasn't been well enough to train them. Bert and I have encouraged him to sell/give some of the breeding pairs, since there are "too many pigeons," but he doesn't want to part with them. I don't think they are overcrowded, though; but have moved some around to fit the populations to available space. 

Today all the coops got anti-canker meds in their water, and will continue over the weekend. I'm wondering if I should be giving them ACV water more often than once a week (unless I can find Bragg's in gallon jugs at a reasonable price I would soon be broke -- it is rather expensive here -- but I don't want to give them grocery store common ACV since the unpasteurized is supposed to be so much better for them).


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