# Pigeon's wings. What to look for?



## pigeonslover

Hello everyone,
I'v been searching this forum for information on how to look at the wing feathers for short/middle/long distance birds but there is not much info about it. Any expert out there want to share your knowleage? I heard this is very important factor when looking at a racer. Information is appreciated.


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## Alamo

Sprint birds >>> Large birds with wide flights,and no step in the wing....
Middle distance birds>> Medium to large,with not so wide flights,and there could be a step in the wing...
Long Distance birds >> Small to medium size,with narrow flights,and a step in the wing...

But there is so many other factors that make a bird fall into one of these 3 catagories...Best thing is buy a good book,and read,read,read,and read some more...Alamo


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## ohiogsp

Who knows I don't think their is a 100 percent. I think the ones who flap their wings slower are long distance and the ones who do it faster are sprint. And if you find a way to tell this let me know.


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## MaryOfExeter

The wing and feather conformation IS important. Much like airplanes, the wing shape is extremely important in how the air passes over the wing and through the feathers on the up and downstroke.

"Duck wings", as I like to call them, help birds in shorter, 'sprint' races. The wing has wide flights, no gaps, no steps, and the wing altogether looks solid, like an airplane wing. This allows the bird to move more air on the downstroke, making it go much faster. The problem with a wing like this, is that because it is so solid, it's harder on the bird to pull the wing back up, tiring it out more quickly.

Now skipping to a 'long distance wing'. You're going to have steps in the wings, from the secondaries to the first primaries, and more than likely from the first primaries, to the last few. You'll find gaps between the last few flights. The gaps and steps don't help much with speed, but it is a great advantage when it comes to endurance. Air can pass more easily through the feathers on the upstroke, so flight is easier on the bird. That also means not as much air is moved when the bird flaps, so it won't get the maximum speed from those downstrokes.

Then there's the ones that are in the middle. Somewhere between what you'd find in a 'sprint' bird and a 'long distance' bird. There's a bit of difference between those two, so birds for middle distances can have some variation in those wings. Has some help with the speed, has some help with the ease of flying.

Is this the only thing that you should consider? No. Will the right size, shape, and wings make you win? No. It is still a big part of the equation? In my opinion, yes. Instead of worrying about all that eyesign mumbo jumbo, I'd rather consider the more scientific things, like genetics and aerodynamics


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## ezemaxima

MaryOfExeter said:


> The wing and feather conformation IS important. Much like airplanes, the wing shape is extremely important in how the air passes over the wing and through the feathers on the up and downstroke.
> 
> "Duck wings", as I like to call them, help birds in shorter, 'sprint' races. The wing has wide flights, no gaps, no steps, and the wing altogether looks solid, like an airplane wing. This allows the bird to move more air on the downstroke, making it go much faster. The problem with a wing like this, is that because it is so solid, it's harder on the bird to pull the wing back up, tiring it out more quickly.
> 
> Now skipping to a 'long distance wing'. You're going to have steps in the wings, from the secondaries to the first primaries, and more than likely from the first primaries, to the last few. You'll find gaps between the last few flights. The gaps and steps don't help much with speed, but it is a great advantage when it comes to endurance. Air can pass more easily through the feathers on the upstroke, so flight is easier on the bird. That also means not as much air is moved when the bird flaps, so it won't get the maximum speed from those downstrokes.
> 
> Then there's the ones that are in the middle. Somewhere between what you'd find in a 'sprint' bird and a 'long distance' bird. There's a bit of difference between those two, so birds for middle distances can have some variation in those wings. Has some help with the speed, has some help with the ease of flying.
> 
> Is this the only thing that you should consider? No. Will the right size, shape, and wings make you win? No. It is still a big part of the equation? In my opinion, yes. Instead of worrying about all that eyesign mumbo jumbo, I'd rather consider the more scientific things, like genetics and aerodynamics


By any chance would you have sample pictures of the described wing for each... sprint, long distance.... Also any book you can recommend?


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## Glyn

Well I Have A Little Bird With Massive Wing Span Whats That For As i carnt Understand The Others info


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## MaryOfExeter

There is an article written by Dr. Colin Walker in the October 15th, 2005 RPD issue. Explains how certain shapes of the wing and feathers effects lift, speed, etc. It's an interesting article to read if you have a way to. I might be able to scan the pages if you'd like.
Right now I don't have any pictures of REAL wings, but I did draw a little sketch of three wings that might help. They aren't the best but it gives you an idea.
I'll scan it as well and post it in a bit.


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## pigeonslover

That's interesting, i can't wait to see it. Thanks


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## george simon

* Hi Pigeonslover, The book "BORN TO WIN" by Dr.Wim Petershas a load of information on the wing and many other subjects that would of intrest to you doctor Peters races pigeons in South Africa he has a second book "FIT TO WIN" both of these books will help you and I recomend both* GEORGE


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## FreeFlyer

wow! that's some great info. I'd love to see some pictures of those wings as well...


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## ezemaxima

MaryOfExeter said:


> There is an article written by Dr. Colin Walker in the October 15th, 2005 RPD issue. Explains how certain shapes of the wing and feathers effects lift, speed, etc. It's an interesting article to read if you have a way to. I might be able to scan the pages if you'd like.
> Right now I don't have any pictures of REAL wings, but I did draw a little sketch of three wings that might help. They aren't the best but it gives you an idea.
> I'll scan it as well and post it in a bit.


I found this.....

Dr. Colin Walker

I enjoy reading it but I still would like to see some pictures.


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## MaryOfExeter

ezemaxima said:


> I found this.....
> 
> Dr. Colin Walker
> 
> I enjoy reading it but I still would like to see some pictures.


Yep, that's it. I will try to get pictures tomorrow.


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## FreeFlyer

I was just wondering if you could still post up a picture of those wings. I would love to see them. Thanks


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## MaryOfExeter

I _tried_ to draw what I was talking about, LOL.


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## Glyn

ill look at my birds in the morning  see what my young birds will be good at


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## ezemaxima

MaryOfExeter said:


> I _tried_ to draw what I was talking about, LOL.


Thanks for your great drawings...

Checked my birds and most are sprint to middle distance type wings...


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## MaryOfExeter

I wish I could find the other article with real pictures. They were old, but they talk about the steps, gaps between the feathers, and the size of the feathers. Real pictures, but old pictures  My drawing can at least give you an idea.

But like I said before, the shape of the body and the wings doesn't necessarily mean you'll win at that certain distance, but it will give you an advantage if you keep that in mind when picking birds to send to the race


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## FreeFlyer

MaryOfExeter said:


> I _tried_ to draw what I was talking about, LOL.


That's awsome! Thanks


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## pigeonslover

Thanks. That's very well painting. I am sure this will help a lot of people.


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## pine_loft

what is the definition of short, middle & long distance for the picture above.

Thank


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## keystonepaul

Thanks for explaining that it's slowly but surely building my knowledge base. Thanks for the drawings Mary they confirmed that I was thinking correctly what the written explainations were dscribing. Thanks all for your time. Keystonepaul


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## JohnG

*long dis and short*



ohiogsp said:


> Who knows I don't think their is a 100 percent. I think the ones who flap their wings slower are long distance and the ones who do it faster are sprint. And if you find a way to tell this let me know.


ITs also what you do hear look at youtube johnglemser


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## jmaxpsi

Thanks for the pics Becky....obvoiusly it helps out alot when you can actually see what people are talking about.


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## ohiogsp

I am aquiring stock to start a family of pigeons based on 350 mile yb races. I have purchased about 10 birds alot have placed high if not won 300-350 mile yb races. A few of these have placed high repeatly from 400-550 as OB's. They are med to large mostly large birds, fat flights, no gaps, no step in the wing, pigeons. I guess they are short distance pigeons that don't know what they are doing.


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## Big T

ohiogsp said:


> I am aquiring stock to start a family of pigeons based on 350 mile yb races. I have purchased about 10 birds alot have placed high if not won 300-350 mile yb races. A few of these have placed high repeatly from 400-550 as OB's. They are med to large mostly large birds, fat flights, no gaps, no step in the wing, pigeons. I guess they are short distance pigeons that don't know what they are doing.


Now, take those strong, large, fast birds and breed in a long distance wing into the birds and see if your speed picks up.

Just a thought,
Tony


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## meatcutterss1

MaryOfExeter 
Matriarch : Just ran across your drawing of the types of wings that Racers have. It is very interesting, can you recommend a website or a book which can help me to understand the wings of racers more. thanxs Ed


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## Alamo

Everyone should remember that the weather/WIND plays a big factor on what type of pigeon will win,or even be very close to winning a long distance race....

IF the race is a* FAST one,with speeds of 1300YPM ++,middle distance pigeons *can/will win even at 600 miles....

IF the race is a *SLOW one,with speeds UNDER 1,100 YPM,only a TRUE long distance *pigeon will win,or be close to winning this race....Alamo


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## meatcutterss1

Alamo: Thanks for the info.


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## ERIC K

Interesting stuff . I think soft feathers first.


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## Josepe

Wings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSc1rkNl_h0


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## SmithFamilyLoft

MaryOfExeter said:


> I _tried_ to draw what I was talking about, LOL.


Thank you for sharing those drawings. Here is a pigeon currently for sale, current bid EURO 10,800, based on the drawings and the picture of this bird's wing, what classification do you think this bird falls into ?

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=721924&postcount=62

Bird won three times 1st place, with up to 23,000 birds competing.


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## ERIC K

ERIC K said:


> Interesting stuff . I think soft feathers first.


And let me add what I was trying to say is soft feathers with flexable flights that don't break easy. the flights must be soft enough to bend on the birds up motion , this saver energy in flight. Good soft and thick body feathers for all middle and long distance birds . 

You can breed for any steps in a birds wing, just like color.


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## First To Hatch

I have been taught that the pigeons that your saying are short distance, are long distance, and the pigeons you refer to as long distance are short distance. I will say one thing though, I have a long distance pigeon with the wing like that of the "short distance wing" (the one you drew) that has won 400+ mile race*s* and I have a short distance Staf Van Reet with that same wing that has won diplomas/or been my clock bird from 150-300 miles. 

I think the result of the wing is the selective breeding of the fanciers that bred it, I don't think that it can be a real indicator of what distances a pigeon will/can excel at.


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## Alamo

Warren...I think the RC is a Middle to LD distance pigeon....Nice even 7 to 10 primaries,and a step in the wing at #1 Primary,and good ventilation of the outer 4 flights...And the last outer flights are of a narrower width.....With the assumption of real soft feathering etc,I would like to own the pigeon...And it`s a *RED CHECK *baby !!!...........Alamo


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## Josepe

In the diagram of Becky's I beleive the Short and Long wings are lableled Opposite of what they should be.
Alamo,
I'd say the RC is Middle distance.Love them RC's also.Hope to end up with a couple of Good Ones eventually.


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## LOFT 532

Kinda like judging a woman by her looks? This thread cracks me up. The best bird I have ever held was lacking in every thing others look for in a bird, except he comes home year after year and comes in a hurry from various distances.


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## ERIC K

LOFT 532 said:


> Kinda like judging a woman by her looks? This thread cracks me up. The best bird I have ever held was lacking in every thing others look for in a bird, except he comes home year after year and comes in a hurry from various distances.


So tell us which wing did your bird have the top , middle , or bottom type wing


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## ERIC K

Josepe said:


> In the diagram of Becky's I beleive the Short and Long wings are lableled Opposite of what they should be.
> Alamo,
> I'd say the RC is Middle distance.Love them RC's also.Hope to end up with a couple of Good Ones eventually.


I would have to agree with you on that . Most of my birds would fall into the top picture or the bottom picture and I don't really have speed birds.

I would also add that I think most pigeons I have ever looked at in the last four years I have been interested in pigeons have a space between the last three flights.


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## LOFT 532

According to the drawings he had a "short" distance wing. He flys the best long, maybe because he was flown widowhood and he's a good father? I think I'll try to breed for that trait, "good father" then I'll clean house in the ob season?? Let's not call it "good" father let's call it "Ace" or "Super" Father. Ive heard he has mafia ties, that might have something to do with it? Let me say this, I don't know, I've never claimed to know, and if anyone else knows I'd sure like them to tell me. Just my .02, health, independence, blood, and the love for home makes a "good" pigeon, all those traits and a few others that NONE of use understand makes a "great pigeon. Good luck to all. 

LOFT 532 OUT


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## parrisc

*wing of a 600 mile winder*







The wing of a 600 mile winer only day bird, was also 2n at 300 miles


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## hillfamilyloft

Both the birds Warren showed and Parrisc showed follow Becky"s drawings. Parrisc's bird has pretty good steps to its wing. Fights are a bit wide for the described long distance bird but the steps are right. Warren's pic is a Middle distance bird all the way. Much like the majority of birds in NL and Bel. Would love to read an article. Becky is usually spot on. I am an idiot when it comes to the theory side of the racing. I look for general health and race records. I breed winning or top birds together that look healthy.


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## hillfamilyloft

Parrisc's bird also has a wide back wing like the video Josepe showed.


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## selcuk82

*Wing theory*

Hello, a drawing which you may find,
hope is benefit ...


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## Flapdoodle

selcuk82 said:


> Hello, a drawing which you may find,
> hope is benefit ...


Interesting drawing. It is very similar to the one Becky posted earlier in the thread. The majority of the folks that posted on the thread are no longer active in the forum. The thread was started in 2009, someone reposted it in 2013, now we will add to it in 2018. That is one of the things I really like about the site. There is a wealth of information available for those that log in and use the search function. 

I get the step in the wing theory, what about the eyes in the picture? What are you trying to show?


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## selcuk82

Hello there. I wanted to have additional information on the subject.
I learned very well the information
Greetings from Turkey.


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## Sydneylofts1*

Flapdoodle, look at the wing of a Peregrine Falcon ( very fast! ) last 3 major flights very thin, from step in both directions very straight this to me makes a great all round pigeon fast and can handle distance.


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## Flapdoodle

Sydneylofts1* said:


> Flapdoodle, look at the wing of a Peregrine Falcon ( very fast! ) last 3 major flights very thin, from step in both directions very straight this to me makes a great all round pigeon fast and can handle distance.


I kind of don't put any stock in the theory side of racing pigeons. I base thing more on results. There are so many other variables to racing I have never paid much attention to wings, eyes, throats etc. It is interesting hearing different fanciers ideas. 

Peregrines are fast, pigeons are faster in a level flight. The only birds faster in a level flight than peregrines are some waterfowl and pigeons I think. Anyway back to your theory, I get the idea of thin flights I don't understand what you are saying "from step in both directions" Can you explain it a little more clearly.


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## selcuk82

this wing structure is effective for instant acceleration, not for long distance


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## Sydneylofts1*

The step is the distance from the secondary flights to the longer primary flights , also the curvature of the primary flights has an enormous effect on both speed and distance traveled.


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