# Pigeons and cats



## Pigeonworldwide (Dec 10, 2003)

Hi all,

Ever since my 2 nextdoor neighbors got cats (cats are brothers of each other), I have had problems with them. They always go to my pigeon shed and jump up against the windows and cling onto the gause. I'm always affraid that the window might collapse. They also have caught some birds when they were out in the garden. On of the birds got killed, and one other got its crop ripped open and also got it's lung punctured. I one with got its crop ripped open, got taken to the vets, who had to put it to sleep (for $5, as he thought it was good that I took it to the vets instead of killing it myself). The owner of the cat payed the vet bill, but I don't really want this to happen again. I also don't really want to scare the cats of, as they are adorable. What can I do to stop the cats from cathing my birds? My cat doesn't even seem intrested in them and just walks right past them without looking.

Please help!

Thanks,

Sam


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Cats come in all flavors. Genes tell them to hunt prey like birds but they may be socialized out of this program, or they may get old and lose interest. There is nothing you can do against real bird hunting cats except bar their entrance, repeatedly give them a very unfriendly welcome or kill them before they kill your birds. None of these solutions works on practical or moral grounds; maybe you can change the habits of your birds to stay out of harms way.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

i have a problem with a cat/cats also. i found the power hose works good if they are in a tree. my dog barkley does a parameter check every so often. the crack of dawn is the problem because we are all still sleeping. see if the owners can put bells or something on their collars. that way the pijs can hear them. i wish i could catch the cat the visits here i would put a cow bell on it. lol! just kidding of course.


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## Thunderbird (Sep 7, 2003)

They make little electric strips you can put up on the loft that will give them a zap. A low power BB gun works wonders if used when the cat goes toward the birds-timing is everything, they only need to be zinged twice, in most cases & will associate the pain with the pigeons. Small mouse traps work where they tend to jump up onto things. Just some ideas, Once they figure it out, most will figure it out. My cats still catch sparrows, but know the pigeons are off limits. If you could get your neighbor to bring them over and stick their heads into an occupied nest & get wing-slapped in the face a few times, That is the ideal way to break them of pigeons.


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

A low power BB gun? Are you serious? That is absolutely awful and if that is the kind of thing pigeon people are doing, then I don't think I belong on this forum. 

Sounds like a fence that cannot be climbed by predators is the best solution. I have seen special fences installed on the inside of a backyard fence that are designed in such a way that prevents cats from getting over the top. Perhaps that might be something to consider instead of injuring your neighbor's cats. 

BTW, my sister's cat was hit with a pellet gun and lost her eye as a result.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

earthapidge,
"I have seen special fences installed on the inside of a backyard fence that are designed in such a way that prevents cats from getting over the top."

where? what are they called? do you know of a website that has a picture?
i'm interested!


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi everyone,

Eartha....I know what you mean regarding the suggestion of low power BB gun by Thunderbird but I can kind of see where both of you are coming from.

I love cats, I had four of them between 1980 and 2002. My oldest lived to be 23! But the last few months I have been feeding a feral flock of pigeons that visit my home every day and since then, a neighbor's cat has been hanging around off and on. I guess you can imagine how horrible I felt the day I found a pigeon dead on my property (in the exact spot this cat always hangs out)..his throat torn.

Beleive me, even though I love cats and understand the instinct they have, I wanted to kill that little basta**d. This was not a starving feral cat looking for food, this is a well fed, well cared for tabby having some fun!

I have semi resolved the problem by keeping a close watch on the flock when they are eating and constucting a blockade along the fence that would at least slow the cat down if he tries to strike again.

We own a BB gun, among other things, but I wouldn't use it because even though (at this point) I hate that miserable cat, I don't have the heart to use it. My plan is to dig up my son's old supersoaker watergun...the kind that shoot a BIG stream of water about fifty feet. If that cat comes back again looking for some "fun," he is going to get a face full I don't think he will forget for a loooonnnnggg time.

I think that will do the trick....

Will let everyone know if it comes to that and if it works.

Talk to everyone soon.

Linda


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## ernie (May 3, 2003)

The super soaker 2000 and getting wingslapped worked for me.

The kitten my daughter brought home, thought we kept pigeons just for her entertainment.

We would spray... err, make that soak.... her everytime she so much as looked at them or started heading in the direction of the pigeons. One day she thought she was going to be slick and ran between my feet as I was entering the aviary. Zeus our fantail was on the floor. She ran over to sniff him and got knocked for a loop. In hindsight it was pretty funny, of course at that time I was close to a heartattack. 

Now she won't even aknowlegde the pigeons. She still loves watching the wild birds at the feeder, but won't even blink an eye at pigeons.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My view is that if pigeon lovers want others to respect and protect pigeons then they should respect other peoples animal loves too, whether these be predators or vermin. 

I have neighbourhood cats visit my aviary out of curiosity, but the aviary is designed so that there could never be contact between pigeon and cat. They soon got bored of watching and not touching and keep away. It helps to have dogs that will chase strange cats out of the garden!

If I had a problem, and my pigeons were stressed or in danger, then I would spray water at the cats. I did that to one of my own cats to stop it going next door and she understood immediately. Cats really don't like water but it is neither painful nor harmful to them!

And if it is possible to fence a garden in such a way that a cat can't get out, then it must be possible to keep cats out of the garden too. The fence is built with a curve towards the side the cat would climb. The can't climb at an angle.

Cynthia

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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## FeatherBrain (Apr 5, 2004)

Since the topic is Pigeons and cats....I shall share my own sad little episode....I wasnt even going to mention it...it was so horrible to see..!
My male fantail Drake died remember? Well...I took his body out of the cage and placed it on the boards beside the cage. I moved a few paces to get the birdseed when a cat dashed in from somewhere, caught Drakes body and rushed under the car. I screamed my head off...But Alas!
She sat under the car and ATE HIM UP.! The feathers were flying every where..and it was simpply HORRENDOUS.
I have always liked cats and adopted them...but this shall always be a night mare for me....Now...whenever I open Gypsy for her sunbath, I shall sit ON TOP OF HER. Although since that certain incident...I have not opened her yet.

PS: My incidents sure make me look like a pathetic pijjy owner


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about this incident, I would have been upset very upset too!

Cats can be domseticated nuisances, it all really depends on who owns them. Most people I know are responsible enough to keep their cats inside. I love cats too.

It is against the law, here to let your cats roam around outside. They can pick up all kinds of diseases, incidently, didn't Drake die from some disease....is it not possible..the cat will get the disease?

Treesa


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I agree, People should not let their cats go outside unless they have a nice closed off area where they can just smell some fresh air.

Cats do fine inside ..but if let out they can kill so many poor birds..










Mary


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## Anwyn (Apr 4, 2004)

Sorry maryco but i completely disagree the only time a cat should be stopped from roming around is when there's a busy road nearby. And even in that case they should be taken for walks on harness and leash. Coz unless you have a lazy or very, VERY people oriented cat, or can spend most of your day playing with it you're gonna have one bored pussy.

Besides when it comes to pet cats neutering solves most problems. Less agressive, less fights, no more running away with a lover for three or four days. 

My cat was always very active, only really slowed down when he got arthritice. Used to hunt everything moths, butterflies, grasshoppers, birds, mice and more. He used to bring them all inside. We often found grasshopper legs near windows and doors (it was kinda funny seeing that my bro is freaked by even mentioning grasshoppers). God knows how many times i stopped him killing the birds he brought in.

well anyway to get to the point, after we neutered him he never really brought much in and stayed around the house more

Anwyn


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

There is some interesting information at this site regarding why cats should be kept indoors for their own health and well being as well as that of the birds and animals that they predate:

http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/ 


Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am sorry to have to say this, but remember that Featherbrain is in Pakistan...that cat must have been absolutely starving!
Hoewever, I am so sorry that you had to witness it FB.
This is a rough draft of a poem I wrote recently for Feefo but I would like to offer it as it is to you and to Drake and to all the other pigeons that have recently crossed the Rainbow Bridge:

_Fly free, precious pigeon, fly free and fly high
Rise gloriously in that safest blue sky!
Leave sickness and pain in the turned earth below,
then soar over that multihued bridge, which we know
guides you home... to the flock that dips shimmering wings
In a tribute to the Creator._

Cynthia


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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the website, Terry...
it reaffirms what I believe


Cynthia,....that made me cry..thank you for sharing!


Treesa


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi everyone,

Anwyn, if you own a cat and you love it, you should keep it indoors.

Maximum life expectancy for outdoor cats is a measly eight years due to accidents, poisoning, etc. On the other hand, indoor cats can live very long happy lives.

My four cats were kept indoors all their lives...two lived to be 16, one lived to be 18, and the champion was my Mama cat who lived to be 23 years old.

For their own safety, to avoid heartbreak, and to protect innocent wildlife, pet cats should be kept indoors.

Linda

[This message has been edited by Lin Hansen (edited April 22, 2004).]


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Just my humble opinion...I love all animals and they all have their own niche in nature. Usually animals only take what they need to survive so predator and prey has no bearing mostly. Neither is better than the other or has a more just cause to live than the other. However, cats are one of the few predatory animals that will kill, strictly for killing. Many times, they will kill or mame an animal and leave it uneaten. Or, You will find your household cat bring in a small bird or a baby animal still alive, just to torture it. That is one thing I really do not like about cats. Not all of them are this way as with every animal, they are all unique. But, the fact that a lot of them will kill for the sake of killing, disturbs me. So I have to agree with Lindda on this one. Just a little too similar to the human animal in my opinion. Cats should be kept indoors or on a leash when outside and never let to roam.


Brad

[This message has been edited by Pigeonpal2002 (edited April 22, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Pigeonpal2002 (edited April 22, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Pigeonpal2002 (edited April 22, 2004).]


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

I have two male cats even though I have inside and out side birds. The boys have their own room to play in with two windows, toys and lots to jump on and explore! I would never think of putting them back out side, that is how they came to me in the first place, they were kittens out wondering in the country. 

Just an idea...

Have you tried talking to the owners about the cats? It is a mazing what a little kindness can do. The dog trainer across the street has been no problem at all since I took candy over for his young son, introduced myself and drew attention to the fact that he had birds and so do I. He is a otherwise nice guy and I have not had any problems with him OR his dogs coming after my birds!

Do these people have kids? Invite the family over to come see your birds. Do you raise chicks? Like the kids see one. Talk to them about cats attacking your birds, but don't say that it is theirs that did it unless they ask. You might give it a try and see what happens, it can't hurt and the least it could do is nothing at all. Ask them if they could keep the cats inside? It's worth a shot. I like to try the easy way before trying to outsmart the animals.

Sorry it's so long but I hope this give you some ideas and good luck!


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## FeatherBrain (Apr 5, 2004)

Hi,
Well, to answer Treesa's Question about the cat catching the disease...Well, we have A LOT OF stray cats and dogs around. So, they come in contact with all sorts of sick animals and diseases...in that respect The stray animals around here have a stronger immunity. I wouldnt worry about the cat. And yes the cat must have been hungry...
As for Cyro51...well, yes we do have a lot of hungry strays around...but that can be said for the poor beggars too.
But ppl here do feed stray animals (cats, dogs , eagles, crows sparrows n birds etc etc) for the sake of good deeds. So they arent very bad off. And then we have our "rubbish-heaps".! which are a relief to these animals...
My own grandmother makes sure she leaves bread crumbs for the sparrows and I leave food around for the cat strays..


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/\/\.$


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## FeatherBrain (Apr 5, 2004)

Oh...Forgot to mention...I like Cynthias poem very much.

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/\/\.$


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## Anwyn (Apr 4, 2004)

I still think that if you live in a safe area your cat should be let to roam free, and get some fresh air. After we neutered him and he gave up hunting all he used to do was sunbath on the well. And he got really depressed when it would rain and sit by the window miawing, asking us to make it go away.

Besides it would have killed him seeing the stray cats come in his teritory.

Its true he only lived to be ten but thats because he hated cars and when we took him to the vet it was just too much for him.

Well anyway i live in a safe area away from traffic, i've rarely even seen rat poison around, and no chance of them injesting anti-freeze since it doesn't snow.

I suppose people have to adapt to their different situations.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

i did at one time feel sorry for this cat that roamed around here. i put food and water out for it a couple times. it would eat the food and still kill the birds. not for food just for kicks. my neighbor is having the same problem so we now have super soakers. we still have 2 cats that i know of.
as for safety, i live in a residential area (25 mph). a cat was run over right in front of my house. it was probably going after a bird and a car got it. 
i like cats, i like all animals. if it was for food i would deal but its not. if i find one more bird in shreds and the head dislocated from its body that cat will be going somewhere else. i'm just tired of it.


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## Danielle Chase (Jun 26, 2002)

I can't stand cats!


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## FeatherBrain (Apr 5, 2004)

Speaking of Cats...
Guess what?
It rained a lot the day before...and I found a small abandoned kitten in my garden..It was mewing terribly....Its so small it cant even drink milk properly...just sucks.
Despite parental objections...I have the kitten in a box in the garden..Named it "KOVU".
I felt so sorry for it...I was hoping its mama would come back for it but it didnt. So I am trying to help it survive.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Good for you, Feather Brain!

Can you work out how old it is? You might need to wipe its little bottom and tummy with a damp towel to stimulate digestion.

I know that raising kittens when they lose their parents is difficult and I was never successful at this. A cat website might be able to offer you some helpful advice.

BTW whatever terrible things cats and other predators may do, there will be thousands and thousands of our fellow humans that do a whole lot worse. But we are prepared to judge each human as an individual.

Cynthia

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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

A certain moggy of my acquaintance (of whom I must admit to being very fond) likes to lay around the house and mostly just goes out into 'her' garden to do her stuff then comes back in. But then, she is getting on in years. She still watches the birds through the window, however - little head, side to side, like someone watching a tennis match









But around the area where my mother lives, there's plenty of cats just roaming around, often without any visible sign of ownership. One street I drive on, I go at a crawl, because of the cats which lurk under parked cars and then play 'chicken' just as I'm almost alongside. The closest call I had was when a cat ran out right in front of my car, but when I stopped and got out I found it sitting unharmed in the middle of the street. 

I do find it difficult to understand people who keep a 'domestic pet' but have no idea where it is, what it is doing, whether it will even be alive to come back that day! The local paper reported on a lady who was decrying the 'callous driver' who hit her cat and left it lying there. OK, I certainly think if a driver hits any animal, they should stop and see if it can be tended to (if it was a dog, they'd have a legal duty to do so here). But in this case, the lady then said it was the *second* cat they had lost in the same way. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if she now has another cat which she will allow to roam at will, with no regard for its safety!

What Cynthia says is, of course, true. I don't think, on the subject of cats attacking birds, we *can* blame the cat. The human animal may kill or injure animals and other humans for no sane reason, but most domestic cats - or so I believe - simply have the hunting instinct still strong in them, even though they have no need of it for survival. 

Whatever is true in the US or elsewhere, in the UK cats are protected by law, and it is (quote) 'an offence to attack them' - but there doesn't appear to be any law for people, who may quite reasonably object to having other peoples' cats causing havoc on their property, to take action against owners.

John


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

Anwyn,

I am sorry but I disagree with the idea that if the area is "safe" they should be free. I live out in the county and many cats run free but so do the dogs, not cool. Cats get hit out in front of my house, dogs barely make it and then people are so upset when the cat or dog never comes back. Cats are also used for target practice by the many hunters and kids.

There are other predators that will kill cats and dogs. I don't want the guilt in my mind if my cats didn't come back and wondering if I had kept him in the house would he still be alive.

Also,

You said that it would have killed him if another cat was in his territory and he couldn't do something about it. I also have three dogs (Rottweilers and a German Shepard) and they get pretty upset when some one or something is in their territory but I sure would not ever consider letting them have the free ability to take care of it, same goes with my cats.

There are just some things as keepers of animals we have to do to keep them and others safe from eachother.

Just my thoughts...

Christina


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

Killer Kitties http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fwt/back_issues/december98/cats.html 

"Like many cat owners, I once thought my cat was supposed to roam outside," says Linda Winter, coordinator of the ABC's new Cats Indoors! campaign. "But the fact is that it's better for cats and for wildlife if they stay indoors."

The Effects of Cat Predation on Wildlife http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/cats.htm 

“Feline predation is not "natural." Cats were domesticated by the ancient Egyptians and taken throughout the world by the Romans. Cats were brought to North America in the 1800's to control rats. The "tabby" that sits curled up on your couch is not a natural predator and has never been in the natural food chain in the Western Hemisphere.”


Slowing Down A CAT-astrophe: Keeping Pet Cats Indoors http://www.ctaudubon.org/nature/cats.htm 

“The predatory nature of cats not only put other animals in peril but it is well documented about the misery these animals suffer and endure themselves. According to the U.S. Humane Society, outdoor cats are more susceptible to injury as well as disease (rabies) and parasites (ticks, worms) that can be life threatening to themselves and passed along to humans. Outdoor cats also have a significantly lower life expectancy than indoor cats.”

Hope this helps too!
Christina


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## Anwyn (Apr 4, 2004)

As I said it depends where you live. I'm in an urban area, even in 'rush hour' at eight in the morning everyone drives slow, and my cat never even went near the main road 2 blocks up. He just new it was dangerous. I have never seen a dead cat, dog or anything else in the area. And as regards wild animals the biggest predator in the country are weasels and the few that still remain certainly don't come anywhere near the towns.

And when i say territory i'm talking of our front garden. If someone is there whose not suppost to i don't see why my dog shouldn't get upset! So do I. Even my dog is usually outside except when we're upstairs or not at home cause it means leaving the front door open. And she always patrols the garden for intruders and i frankly enjoy seeing herdo it cause she also keeps stray cats off our property, stops them attaking our bins, and stops those irritating festival organisers from entering and tying one end of their banner/decoration/lights to our balcany without permission.
And when it comes to cats hunting wildlife, he used to catch mainly grasshoppers, or if it was a bird the only thing around are sparrows.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

Not surprisingly, I think John and Christine bring up some very good points. Even though this thread started off concerning cats and the danger they pose to pigeons and other wildlife when allowed to roam free, I think pointing out the dangers that the free roaming cats are exposed to themselves may be helpful in convincing pet owners that the responsible thing to do is to keep your pet cat indoors. 

Cats are not exposed to dangers just in the "big city." I am sure that in "the country" they can still be hit by cars...plus there is the added danger of the cat being attacked by other animals. Plus, sad to say, not all poisonings of cats are due to accidental ingestion of anti-freeze. If a cat is being a nuisance, destroying property or killing animals on someone else's property, there are many cold hearted people out there who would stoop to deliberate poisoning. I am sure none of us on this site would do or advocate such a thing, but if we believe everyone in the world thinks like we do, we are just kidding ourselves.

Plus, this business of what is "natural" for the animal, I think, is a ridiculous defense for irresponsible behavior.

Pigeon people....wouldn't it be "natural" to let your pigeons keep laying and hatching clutch after clutch of eggs with no regard to whether it was detrimental to their health?......wouldn't it be "natural," when they get sick, to not treat w/ medication and just let the sickness run its "natural" course?....wouldn't it be "natural" to let your birds free fly every day when ever they wanted to regardless of hawks in the area? If a hawk happened to kill one or two, wouldn't that just be "nature" following its course?

And cat people....wouldn't it be "un natural" to neuter your cat? Isn't it more "natural" to let females produce litter after litter of kittens, when the shelters are filled to the brim with unwanted animals already? Also, when your cat is ill or injured, should you just let "nature" take its course? Interference by a veterinarian would not be "natural," would it?

This "natural" stuff is for the birds..so to speak..LOL

If we take on the responsiblity of owning pets, any kind of pets, then it is our duty to do our very best to keep them safe, healthy and happy.

Linda


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

Thank you Linda!

That is exactly what I was trying to say! There really is nothing natural about keeping animals. People let there parrots have free flight outdoors with the same reasoning in mind but the only way for it to truely be natual is to not get them to begin with right? 

I won't just get rid of all my animals but I do believe that keeping animals is so stupid - look what we have done to them. The dog, cat, rabbit, horse, chicken, goat, etc. breeds that we have created is a pretty good example. Budgies in the wild live in to their twenties but with us, they reach the old age of 5. 

I do often wonder if my thoughts and reasoning for keeping animals being that I "love them" is not totally stupid. If I really want the best for animals I really shouldn't have them at all. No matter how hard I try or how much money I spend each year on care for these animals that "I love" it can not ever compare to what their life would have been if we humans had left them alone.

P.S. No I am not with PETA, I am getting my 3rd and 4th goat kids next weekend, still rising the numbers in my care. Stupid? Yah but hey, I love 'em...

Okay, sorry but I am now off my soap box and going to go exercise my miniature horse.









Christina


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## FeatherBrain (Apr 5, 2004)

Hi...Didnt mean to disrupt the hot debate on cats n thier natural behaviour (lol)
Just wanted to let u all know that the kitten I adopted is doing gr8! At first I thought she wasnt goint 2 make it...but its been 5 days! n she can now drink!!
 btw Cynthia...I knew about the tummy stimulating thing..but the kitty doesnt poop when I do so.
As for cats living indoors...or any animal for that matter...I think I wd like my animals to experience nature. Letting them have a free roam may be irresponsible...But I make it a point that my birdys are in fresh air...with plants etc.
I used to keep 5 chickens in my garden (n i'm in the city) but I used to open them in the garden every two three days despite thier coop bieng big..n my mom was agiainst that.. (cz they wud destroy her garden) but still!!!








I think all pet owners should let thier animals taste nature...they should experience the grass, plants soil (all real, mind u)...they deserve that...and it wont be fair on them if they have to live thier entire life cooped up in a house.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Featherbrain,

As I said, I was far from successful when I had to try handrearing kittens! I am glad that your little one is doing well.

Cynthia


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## Thunderbird (Sep 7, 2003)

I think the BB gun should be explained a bit: There are lots of types of BB guns/pellet guns-what I have used, are low velocity, spring-type BB guns. The cats get a zing, maybe a welt, but that's it. Yes, anything more would be cruel! 

As far as cats go, mine are great! I have 3 siamese that are house-bound pets. I have 4 feral cats we got as kittens that were oriented to the birds, fixed, and are here to WORK! They are in during the day & get to lounge around, be a part of the family. (this way, no wild birds or lizards are bothered that I like to keep around the house). At dark, they are out. Their job is to keep the other cats off the property, (2&1/2 rural acres), take care of mice, etc. I know there's a risk that things happen to them, owls, coyotes, cars,...but I accept that. The smart ones figure the area out, and have a good life. The dumb ones don't come back in the a.m. So far, these 4 (2 males, 2 females) are at the door every sun up. 
I have 2 friends that raised kittens in their pigeon coops to combat mice problems and other cats. It's hilarious to see the birds walking right over the sleeping cats, or the cats gently nudge a pigeon aside to look into a mouse hole. That is probably the best method I have seen.


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

And that is a perfect exapmle of all kinds of effort and trial and error by humans to overcome the genetic program to achieve an ideal result. You must have put in some good work to get this right. 

Congratulations - I am sure you enjoy the results.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi everyone,

While I still stand by my previous opinions, have no fear.....I am not going to climb back up on my soapbox!! LOL

I guess this is just one of those topics where everyone has to make their own decisions based on their own circumstances and situation.

Featherbrain....Congratulations on your success with the kitten. You sound like a true lover of all animals.

Christina....I wanted to comment on your previous post....No, you are NOT stupid for your love of animals and keeping them as pets. While I am sure that sometimes human interference is not the greatest thing (re: your example of the budgies,)I am also sure that animals kept as pets (if they are well cared for) live much easier lives than alot of the poor ferals who struggle to survive on their own. Having a full belly, a warm, safe place to live, and having someone who cares enough to help you when you are sick or injured "ain't all bad!!"

I am sure your animals get the best of care and your love, so don't feel guilty about it..enjoy them as I am sure they enjoy being with you. 

Linda


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

i took "drastic" measures to take care of that cat. 
i hung wind chimes on are shakey old fence at main cat jumping locations. i hope it works. my neighbors are going to run for cover when we have are next wind storm.
i may have to use the super soaker on my neighbors.


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

Wow, reading this topic has made me appreciate my cats even more. We have 7 who live/spend time here. Only two are roamers, three others only ever travel between my house and next door's, and the others are on the property 24/7. Perhaps once or twice a year I will catch one with a mouse in it's mouth (which of course I take away and keep for a day or two to monitor for injuries) and every now and then I find a little clump of pigeon tail feathers, but no ohter evidence of a kill. I guess they jump up too late and all they grab hold of is the tail. Most of our cats are either too old, well fed or lazy to bother with hunting.

The pigeons love to come and eat cat biscuits on the verandah and it's so funny to see cats sleeping on there, paying absolutely no attention to them, except when the flock get a fright and all fly off. This also gives the cat a fright and it's hard to stifle the giggle when that happens lol









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Animals are there for you through thick and thin...shame most people aren't like that


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## Nick (May 24, 2001)

Ahh. I hope ppl dont try and bump me off some time for saying this. I think if the owner of said cat lets said cat(s) off his/her own properity and said cat(s) kills your birds, I feel it would be completly in you jurisdiction to to whatever you want to do to said cat(s). Shoot it, soak it, zap, chase it, ect. If ppl let their cats lose they must not want them anyway.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I would be heartbroken if all people felt as you do, Nick, because apart from anything else it would mean other people have the right to shoot, kill, zap any pigeon that came into their "jurisdiction". After all, that line of reasoning suggests that people that let their pigeons loose to fly don't want them anyway, which I am certain is far from the truth!

Cynthia


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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

> Originally posted by Nick:
> *Ahh. I hope ppl dont try and bump me off some time for saying this. I think if the owner of said cat lets said cat(s) off his/her own properity and said cat(s) kills your birds, I feel it would be completly in you jurisdiction to to whatever you want to do to said cat(s). Shoot it, soak it, zap, chase it, ect. If ppl let their cats lose they must not want them anyway.*


Oh my gosh, I can't believe what I just read. Cats are both natural roamers and hunters. While I don't like them killing other creatures, I do realize it's in their nature. I would soak or chase a cat away, in fact I've done both to a bully cat in the neighbourhood, and to break up cat fights, but to SHOOT them???? That's just cruel, and no different to murder as far as I'm concerned. I often have dogs come into my yard, and I guess by your self-imposed laws I have every right to shoot it dead???? Door-to-door charity, etc, knockers are trespassing, causing annoyance, disturbing you as you're cooking your evening meal, and causing stress by trying to either sell you things or convert you to their religion. I have your permission to shoot them????

And you're spelling isn't too great either, much like your views on animals that aren't pigeons. It's property, not properity, completely, not completly, your jurisdiction to do, not you jurisdiction to to, and loose, not lose. I hope they were typos and not the way you really spell. Complain all you like to the mods. I really don't care. I'm in a foul, sad mood because a baby bird I rescued yesterday has just died within the last half hour, despite appearing to be doing a lot better than when i discovered it

FYI, I have 7 cats, two of whom roam because they turned feral after I brought them home. It's physically impossible for me to keep them inside. How dare you say that just because a person's cat roams it means that the owner doesn't want it. Hopefully you've got the type of neigbours who will report you to the R.S.P.C.A. or whatever you have in your area if you do shoot a cat. You think a cat killing a bird is bad, but shooting a cat is animal cruelty.

If it was you who posted earlier about finally remembering your password, then it's a shame you did, considering your remarks about murdering cats.



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Animals are there for you through thick and thin...shame most people aren't like that


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

> Originally posted by Nick:
> *Ahh. I hope ppl dont try and bump me off some time for saying this. I think if the owner of said cat lets said cat(s) off his/her own properity and said cat(s) kills your birds, I feel it would be completly in you jurisdiction to to whatever you want to do to said cat(s). Shoot it, soak it, zap, chase it, ect. If ppl let their cats lose they must not want them anyway.*


Well my last post didn't show up, so I suppose a mod decided it was unsuitable. I'm sorry Cynthia, I admit it was very strongly worded, even if it didn't involve swear words. I shouldn't have released my anger and sadness at the death of my poor little birdie Stan in that way.

Two things I want to repeat Nick is how dare you accuse people of owning cats who roam of being people who don't want cats. I have 7, two of whom roam because they're pretty much feral. This is their basic home, but they do roam. There is absolutley no way I can keep them in for the night.

You feel strongly about cats coming onto your property...does that include trespassing door-to-door salesmen who try to bully you into buying their product? Should I keep my gun handy just in case they happen to come knocking?

I will chase a bully cat from the neighbourhood every time i see her on my property, and have had to spray cats iwth hoses to stop fights, but as for shooting them...that's just murder. 

Here's my suggestion. Buy a collar with a bell or two, then put it on the cat, attaching a note explaining to the owners why you have done this. If they are reasonable people they will understand.


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Animals are there for you through thick and thin...shame most people aren't like that


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Genevieve,

I am so very sorry about the baby! I really hate it when a rescue turns out to be newly hatched because their chances of survival are so slim even when they seem to thrive initially. If they are past the 5 day stage then their chances of survival are greatly improved. They occasionally make it which is why I try not to be pessimistic from the beginning.

Your post wasn't deleted...posts can take a lot of time to appear here, which I hope can be corrected because it is so frustrating when there is a life at stake and the rescuer hasn't left an e-mail for back up.

Cynthia


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## FeatherBrain (Apr 5, 2004)

First..It is a Pigeon LOVING forum...not a CAT HATING forum. So pl keep ur feline feelings to yourself...I am sure there are many cat lovers here (like me) who got offfended at the remarks. I agree with whatever Genevieve has said. I might not like rats or lizards, but that doeesnt justify me saying nething against them.
Besides...there are a lot many HUMANE methods of preventing cat predatory behaviour twards birds...so there is no need to resort to violennce.


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/\/\.$


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## Pigeonworldwide (Dec 10, 2003)

Whoahh, never knew so much people would reply to this topic - I don't want to harm the cat in any way. I once had a cat that got shot. People around my neightborhood suspected that it was this bird keeper that had done this before. Shamely enough, my cat had to get put down as the air riffle bullet had injured my cat quite badly in the "insides". I actually found a bullet in the same cat that tries to catch my birds - it was 50% though the skin and 50% out (didn't go right though the skin). I found this quite saddening. I don't want to install a fence so cats can't come into my garden as I want to give my own cat the possibility to go beyond our garden. We also get harmless cats coming into our garden which I like to see. Any other sugestions on how to keep the cats away from my pigeon loft? Is there a certain plant which they hate the smell of?


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Wow 45 replies...now this is 46. i agree to the person with the last replie on the first page. they deserve it

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  :S


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Hi Genevieve,

Don't worry about the cat thing - like everything else, people will have opinions ranging all over a bell shaped curve; so what? You know what you know and it's OK.

What isn't OK is Stan not having his chance at life. You are not the only one bummed out about that one, and we were all pulling for that youngstser, but as Cynthia said, he was in the way-long-shot category being so young. This doesn't help much but it is great you cared for him and if he could have made it you would have done a fine job to help him feel the air on his wings. Maybe there is another pigeon waiting for you somewhere if you look.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Boy oh boy, it truly is amazing how people will twist, bend, fold, spindle, mutilate, and tailor the facts to make them fit their own point of view....

Cat people...if your roaming cats get hit by cars, poisoned, attacked by bigger animals, or contract a disease....I guess it's only "natural," right?

Pigeon people....if your pigeons get killed by roaming cats, don't feel bad....it's only
"natural."

Jeez


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## Nick (May 24, 2001)

Cats are not native, so is it right that they are interduced to a species not able to defend it self from them. Four years in a row now a pair of robins have made a nest under my deck, and every year the fleglings are killed by stray and wild cats. The pigeons that I and others let fly are not, (unlike most cats) trying to kill other anamals. 

Nick, 
Amazed that people cant understand this


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

Nick you seeem to think that cats have no right to live where you are. I'm in Australia, so does that mean you think every dog in my country has no right to live here seeing as the dingo is the only 'true' Australian dog?

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Animals are there for you through thick and thin...shame most people aren't like that


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanks for the support guys







I really need it right now, as any of you who have unsuccessfully tried to save an animal will understand.

And again I apologize for some of what I said in my earlier post in this topic. Even though I was heartbroken there was no need for me to release my emotions that way.

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Animals are there for you through thick and thin...shame most people aren't like that


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

> Originally posted by FeatherBrain:
> *I might not like rats or lizards, but that doeesnt justify me saying nething against them.
> *


hear hear! I'm petrified of large spiders, but I absolutely refuse to kill them. My mother is the spider-catcher in our house lol. I recently had a huge one run onto my kyboard and I tried to catch it but was almost vomiting with fear. I had to wait 5 hours for my mother to come home and catch it and release it outside. It never even entered my head to harm or kill it. Every animal has a right to live, no matter how we feel about them.



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Animals are there for you through thick and thin...shame most people aren't like that


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Like has been said, keeping or 'owning' any animal carries a responsibility.

Leaving aside local laws, or lease conditions, most folk have a right to keep dogs, cats, pigeons, ferrets, rabbits or most anything within reason.

But people also have a right to the enjoyment of their property without interference from others.

It just comes down to reconciling these 'rights', surely?

If someone objects to other people's pigeons on their roof and depositing poop on their porch (for instance), other people's dogs or cats using their gardens to do their stuff or hunt wildlife, other peoples rabbits chewing on their lawn grass - well, whether I think they are being petty, mean-spirited or silly doesn't actually matter. They do have the right to object.

They don't have any right to kill or otherwise harm someone else's animals or birds, but they should be able to raise their objection with the neighbor and maybe get a little co-operation, for the sake of keeping the peace.

If it cannot be settled amicably, then I'm sure most places have some kind of civic 'authority' which will investigate claims that a nuisance is being caused, and arbitrate or make a decision one way or the other.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Nevertheless, not all cats that are allowed outside roam, cause a nuisance or kill birds.

A recent study in the UK showed that the main killer of wildlife, including birds, is the motor car, yet how many of us are prepared to give up travelling by car (our own or others')?

Cynthia


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## Nick (May 24, 2001)

I would like to say im sorry also about what i said, I did not think about it very well. I my self own a cat, and would never dream of killing one. Let me try to explane what I ment by "shoot": A childs sling shot loaded with a soft rubber ball (sold for chasing off wild pigeons, of all things) works well to give a small bruse. It also works well for chasing off skunks and racoons. Which is a VERY big problume 
where I live. (Jeez, I really cant spell...)

I would like to add that if I find any cats that are friendly and dont try to kill me, lol. I have a room in my house where I keep them and I call around to see if anyone is missing a it. If I dont find the owner in a few days or so I will bring the cat to the Humaine Socity.

[This message has been edited by Nick (edited May 02, 2004).]


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

I'm sorry we got off to a bad start Nick...nice to meet you


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

I'm sorry we got off to a bad start Nick...nice to meet you









*shakes your hand*


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## Genevieve (Apr 30, 2004)

lol oops didn't realize the first one registered when i posted it, silly bugger i am! lol 

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Animals are there for you through thick and thin...shame most people aren't like that

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~genevievebennett/ - please sign my guestbook and guestmap


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

I'm pretty disgusted with many of the responses in this thread but thought I'd at least send in the info for the cat containment fencing system. They work very well and I think could easily be adapted to keep the cats out of your coops. Unfortunately I get the feeling that some of you are what I refer to as "speciesists" and enjoy the drama of shooting cats with bb guns or water pistols. I will never understand loving one kind of animal so much and hating another. I hope I'm wrong and that some of you might have a sincere interest in a humane solution to the predator/prey problem. 

For what it's worth, here is the URL:
http://www.catfencein.com/index.php 

By the way, I live with 3 cats (2 formerly feral), 2 rabbits and 2 pigeons and I take very careful precautions when I let my bird out (one is not capable of flying at the moment). It's not easy, but I have found solutions to keep everyone happy and safe. It takes a little more time and precautions, but it's worth it. I'm certain this line of thinking can be extended to an outdoor coop with a little clever ingenuity. Good luck, all.

Laura


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## FeatherBrain (Apr 5, 2004)

> Originally posted by Genevieve:
> *Thanks for the support guys
> 
> 
> ...


Remember the little orphan kitten I "rescued"...It passed the critical weaning stage...Survived two storms, (persuaded mom to let it inside)...survived parental objections...but on th fine sunny morning on Saturday...It got out of the guardroom, (door was ajar) and onto the road...somebody took her away. I cried my heart out two days straight. Cdnt study for my final physics paper....It is just too bad when such things happen.


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## Em (Feb 24, 2004)

Its a hard one to call I think,
I have four cats, four pigeons and four dogs.
I hand reared a pigeon - Jet.
She doesn't understand the concept of 'danger' she has tried to land on my cats heads, my dogs heads, my family's and my head. As a result, the cats and dogs stay away becase, like my sister, they can't stand the noise and turbulance of a pigeon flapping its wings.
In the UK it is common practice to let cats roam freely during the day and get them in at night. 
There are no animals that might hurt them - there are never any wandering stray animals because the RSPCA takes care of them (they rehome them). 
I have an old house that has an old birck shed, which unfortunatly provides the perfect conditions for mice. I keep rabbits also, so there is always straw, food and warm places readily available.
My cats provide a service, they keep the mice population under control, otherwize we would have to use poison on the mice, which would mean much more suffering for the mice.
As someone said before, cats were domesticated by the ancient Pharohs, but in the UK we have our own native form of wildcat (so they have always been present in the western hemisphere!







) that there have been records of domestication at least 1350 years ago.
They had been selectiv;y breed until they differed form their wild counterparts, and formed an entirly new species. 
These cats in the UK have been a part of the natural food chain as they were and still are used in some places to makesure that the natural population of certain prolific species do not get out of hand.
The cats in the UK go back as far as historical records go, much farther back than the 1800s as England, Scotland and Wales are ancient countries.
Cats have been bred to be the best hunters and so it is only natural that their genes urge them to kill, it is not their fault, they do not do it for 'kicks' they do it because it is all they know. Cats that did not kill in the older times were killed because they were not useful, they, like sheepdogs were working animals.

Its monstrous to suggest deliberatly harming a cat, they are only doing what their insticts tell them, however cats are VERY intelligent animals and are capable of learnig via conditioning. I.e using water guns, but nothing that causes deliberate pain to a cat. They are only doing what they have been used for for centuries by us, so don't punish them!

P.S cats like their own territory in which to hunt and look for potential mates (even thouh people usually get them neutard or spayed), so restricting them to houses prevents them from doing their natural behaivour.

Emily Preston


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## Pigeonworldwide (Dec 10, 2003)

The nextdoorneighbors cat caught another one of my birs 2 days ago.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

If the pigeons are on your property, then I think you have a right to request the neighbor to keep his cat(s) out of your garden. I like cats, too, but I do believe that if they are shown to be causing a serious problem, then it is up to a responsible owner to take steps to deal with this. I see someone posted a link to a 'cat containment' system. That was in the US, but maybe there is something similar available in the UK too.

John


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## Pigeonworldwide (Dec 10, 2003)

That would be illegal to have though over here in the netherlands. I like that cats allot, but they like my pigeons to much.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Why would it be illegal? It is simply a form of fencing, I think, which cats do not see as 'climable' (may be wrong, though)

John


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

cat got another feral pij. i found it in the flower bed.
i did check out the cat containment system. i have a big backyard and that would throw me into bankruptcy.LOL! i even thought about half sheets of lattice lining the top of the fence. that might look tacky.
the one thing i like about black birds. when there's a cat around they cackle.


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## Pigeonworldwide (Dec 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by John_D:
> *Why would it be illegal? It is simply a form of fencing, I think, which cats do not see as 'climable' (may be wrong, though)
> 
> John*



Sorry, thought it was some kind of trap. Ok, but if it still isn't illegal to have, I wouldn't be able to have it as own cat wouldn't be able to get in or out of the garden.


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## birdman1 (May 15, 2004)

Just a word on cat or racoon control. no. 1, as has been said before, make your loft tight enough that even mice or weasels can't get in. as a last resort buy or borrow a hav-a-heart trap and take the offender on a long ride! birdman1


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

yikes, what a long thread. For the record, I'm all for water guns. Not painful, just uncomfortable for the cat for a minute, and very effective.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

"yikes, what a long thread."

I agree Alea. 
I'm going to close this thread & will reopen it as a continuation thread.
Cindy


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