# Sick White Wing Dove



## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

I have an injured white wing dove, a juvenile. Upon examination he appears to have an old injury to his chest which is scabbed over and very hard. He has a very swollen ankle joint on one leg and some swelling to his other foot. He also has a swollen wing joint. The swellings feel very warm to the touch. Could this be the result of bacterial infection? and if so does anyone think a course of Clavamox would help? I thought his poop might look green but it is a dark and white shade.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

could be Salmonellosis, here is a link to one product.
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/2311.html


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Please post some pictures. Salmonella is possibility, but it can be more than one thing.
Clavamox may help, so you can start her, but if situation doesn't improve, be prepared to switch to something else.
Salmonella 
*Clinical signs:*
Acute form (mainly affects young pigeons):
Enteritis with pulpy, mucoid, greenish droppings; once organs (liver, kidneys, spleen)
have become infected, there is growth retardation, emaciation and (in isolated cases)
death. Embryos infected with salmonellae frequently die in ovo or during the first few
days of life.
Chronic form (mainly affects adult pigeons):
Inflammation causes a thickening of the joints, especially the elbow joint, wing or leg
lameness, disorders of balance and torsion of the neck.
*Treatment:*
Upon appearance of the symptoms described, treatment with chloramphenicol-N should
be started immediately. In some cases it is necessary to change the treatment (e.g. to
ampicillin-t) when the results of the bacteriological examination and antibiogram become
available.
*Other antibiotics:*
Kanamycin: Dosage: .01 mgl to one gram of body weight intramuscularly twice daily.
Gentamycin: Dosage: .01 mg to one gram of body weight intramuscularly once daily or
25 mg. to 120 ml of drinking water orally.
Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole Suspension: Dosage .002 ml to one gram of body
weight orally twice daily.
Sodium Sulfachiorpridazine Powder: Dosage ¼ tsp to 120 ml drinking water


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Rachel,

I think this one might benefit from a veterinary examination.

Are the swollen joints soft or hard? Are they hot to the touch or cool? Are they clean?

My instinct when I see an old scab is to think necrotic plug and pull it, but that is because the first plug that I pulled proved to be as big as half my thumb, the result of a tracking abscess. I also found a dove that had a ruptured crop that scabbed over, the plug had to be pulled and seed that had leaked between the crop and the skin had to be removed.

What are the edges of the scab like? 

Cynthia


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

The swollen joints are firm and feel pretty warm to the touch.

The scab on the chest is dried out and very hard. I thought about trying to remove it but was scared it would start bleeding. I wondered if the bird had been attacked and the injury got infected and sealed over causing the infection to move around the body??

Do you think I should try to get the scab off in case it is infected underneath


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Please consider Vet as an option. You don't know what is under scab. If you cause damage and extensive bleeding or wound needs stitching it may kill bird.
If you don’t have this option (Vet) then I would try to clean and soften the area with warm chamomile tea and antibiotic ointment. Wash with tea, place compress on top, keep it for some time, dry and apply ointment.


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

*Still sick*

Sadly I cannot afford to get this bird to a vet right now and my wildlife rehab center is not being any help. I put the bird on a course of Clavamox which did nothing at all, I cleaned the old wound and found no nasty stuff that needed to be drained. The joints are all as swollen as ever (the ankle is grossly swollen, very tight) and I noticed have a yellowish tinge. The joints still feel hot. He can limp around but is pretty miserable. I am feeding him exact because I'm not sure he wants to eat right now. 

So what would everybody suggest now - could this be Salmonella? I don't want to give up on him.

Please help


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

Here are the pictures. The ankle is the worst and it is getting worse, it appears to be travelling up the leg.


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

*Pictures Please look*

here is another....


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I think Salmonellosis is a real good possibility. Can you get the bird on Baytril or a generic (enrofloxacin)? I have two pigeons here now that came from my buddy in La Habra that both have very swollen lower legs and feet. I'm pretty sure it is not due to injury but due to salmonellosis. I'll try to post some pictures of the ones I have.

Terry


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Get some Arnica pills and Tea tree oil. 1 pill a day Arnica and swab swellings with TT oil. Supportive care and lot of fluids will do the trick. You can't release her ever though and keep her far from other birds for at least 3~4 months.
If you can get Doxycicline it may help.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

plamenh said:


> Get some Arnica pills and Tea tree oil. 1 pill a day Arnica and swab swellings with TT oil. Supportive care and lot of fluids will do the trick. You can't release her ever though and keep her far from other birds for at least 3~4 months.
> If you can get Doxycicline it may help.


Do you think the condition is due to salmonella? I kinda get the tea tree oil and Arnica but don't have a clue about the Doxy .. fill me in, please.  Not sure also about the fluids (though that might be a given depending on the condition of the bird) and the non-release .. are you thinking the bird is a carrier of something that can't be cured? I really appreciate the time and effort and advice you give us here .. sorry to be perhaps a bit slow in the brain category tonight .. have had my share of cases today and I'm about done for. I thank you for all your excellent help here!

Terry


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

It is Salmonella. For some reason smaller doves do not have the same symptoms like pigeons or at least appears that course of disease is slightly different.
Arnica and TT oil are to relieve swelling and pain (worked excellent in my case).
Fluid therapy is to keep toxins on check in the body.
Tetracycline is recommended treatment in this case and I prefer Doxy from this group, as it is safer for the bird. 
I use presently combination of Sulphadimethazine, Chloramphenicol and Furazolidone, but I doubt that this is widely available.
I saw that Chevita switched to Chloramhenicol too so I would highly recommend their chloramphenicol-N product if available in USA/UK.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Dove is not releaseable as she would never recover completely and wing joint will not be flexible enough to have chances for survival outside. Disease is highly contagious as you all know so keep her in isolation for longer period. Once recovered though she poses no danger to other birds. You can find her company (collared dove or something alike) and their life in cage is pretty normal. Bit stiff joints only.


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

I think I can get some Baytril. Does anyone know what the dosage would be and if I can give this orally? Could it be mixed in with the exact?


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Baytril comes in different strenghts for birds is usually 2.5% solution
You need to know weight of the dove before you start medicating.
Dosage:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/baytril-oral-2-5-solution-dosage-12417.html

I would not mix it with anything.
Please note that some AB will not work on salmonella.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

plamenh said:


> It is Salmonella. For some reason smaller doves do not have the same symptoms like pigeons or at least appears that course of disease is slightly different.
> Arnica and TT oil are to relieve swelling and pain (worked excellent in my case).
> Fluid therapy is to keep toxins on check in the body.
> Tetracycline is recommended treatment in this case and I prefer Doxy from this group, as it is safer for the bird.
> ...


Thanks for the info .. much appreciated! 

Terry


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

I would not mix it with anything.
Please note that some AB will not work on salmonella. 
22nd October 2009 04:15 PM 


What do you mean by AB? Antibitotics?

I worked out the dosage but it is not going well because the dove is sicking it back up along with the exact it was fed earlier.

I am feeling really disheartened. How long do you think it could be before the swelling starts to go down? (that is if the baytril actually has any effect) 

Is there any kind of antibiotic that I can get online without a prescription?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

give the bayril directly, i can give you a dosage if i know the mg/ml and her weight in grams


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Yes AB - AntiBiotic. Baytril has bitter taste and birds do not like it much.
You can try giving Baytril before feeding.
Usually swelling goes down in 20 days, but only to some extent. Part of the swelling stays for months.
As I mentioned above chloramphenicol works better for me.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

another tip if your using a 1cc/ml syringe, you can usually get it way down into their throat, they won't be able to taste it, it is yucky tasting


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

is he vomiting?


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

Hi guys

So the dove has been on the baytril (twice a day) for approx a week now. Although the dove appears to be feeling better because it puts up a fight now when I medicate and is also eating seed it's various swellings do not appear to have gone down even slightly. Dove still limps etc. The skin in the area of the swellings is still yellow. Should I have seen a bigger improvement than this? or will the swellings not go away?


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

He did vomit initially but not any more. He has been keeping the meds down.


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

I saw the Chloramphenicol on the manufacturers website but don't believe I can get it here in the US.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Run Baytril for 10 days and put her on Arnica and Tea tree oil to reduce swelling. Some type of Salmonella does not react on Baytril as I allready stated. After antibiotic administration, I would use probiotic and milk thistle pills for recovery too.


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

Sorry it has been a while but I have been pretty upset about the dove,
So I was continuing with Baytril with no real change and decided to try the tea tree oil. After using the tea tree oil on the bird it very quickly deteriorated and began gasping for air. I could do nothing but stand back and watch as this bird that I had worked so hard to help just slowly died. I even diluted the tea tree oil before applying it to his swellings. Can anyone give me some insight into what happened? I don't believe the bird died due to stress because I had to frquently handle him and all was well. Things just went downhill after the tea tree oil.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh no, i'm so sorry, i have no idea about the tea tree oil, never used it, but i'm so sorry he couldn't be saved, thank you for trying.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Sorry for this little one.
The problem is not on Tea tree oil. Tea tree oil reduces joints swelling but has no real impact on bacteria internally. Salmonella spreaded onto the internal organs and this is the reason for gasping and death. Mortality in cases of salmonella is very high and needs to be treated with antibiotics. As I mentioned above, Baytril is not a wonder drug, I gave up trying it and presently use Chloramphenicol.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Rachel25, so sorry that the birds didn't make it. Sometimes know matter what you do they just don't make it. Its know ones fault, at least you tried and thats all you can do. Great job on the effort and maybe next time you will have a success at helping a bird. min


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## Rachel25 (May 2, 2009)

I wish I would have been able to get some of the Chloramphenicol, that maybe could have helped fix the problem. 
Oh well I tried my best and I can just take comfort that if it wasn't for me he would have had no chance. I guess you can't save them all but it always hurts my heart to lose one.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Rachel25,

I am sorry to hear about your little dove, I know how it hurts when you try so hard and the outcome is not what you were hoping for.

I have always found tea tree oil to be a little too aromatic for my liking and I know it does not take much in birds for different kinds of fumes to causes respiratory distress in them. There is also the chance that your dove may have ingested some of the oil by preening the treated areas.

Also, I did find this which may also add some insight, although its about cats I would think a bird might be even more sensitive:

http://www.messybeast.com/teatree.htm
http://www.petcarenaturally.com/handouts/tea-tree-oil.pdf

Although it must be quite upsetting for you I wanted to thank you letting us know the outcome as it may help others in the future to be very cautious with the use of tea tree oil.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> After using the tea tree oil on the bird it very quickly deteriorated and began gasping for air. I could do nothing but stand back and watch as this bird that I had worked so hard to help just slowly died. I even diluted the tea tree oil before applying it to his swellings. Can anyone give me some insight into what happened? I don't believe the bird died due to stress because I had to frquently handle him and all was well. Things just went downhill after the tea tree oil.


I did a bit of research after Tea Tree oil was recommended on another thread and a warning was added. It is listed as toxic to birds and there have been documented cases of adverse reactions. Even if it doesn't affect all birds, or affect them all with the same severity it is not worth taking the risk.

http://www.exoticbird.com/gillian/teatree.html

http://www.parrot-and-conure-world.com/non-toxic-for-birds.html

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/birdproofing.htm

http://forums.manhattanbirdclub.com/post?id=1008369

http://mikeoso.homestead.com/Safety.html

etc


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You don't see Chloramphenical used that widely here in The States because of the remote possibility of it inducing aplastic anemia in people, methinks.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Feefo said:


> I did a bit of research after Tea Tree oil was recommended on another thread and a warning was added. It is listed as toxic to birds and there have been documented cases of adverse reactions. Even if it doesn't affect all birds, or affect them all with the same severity it is not worth taking the risk.
> 
> http://www.exoticbird.com/gillian/teatree.html
> 
> ...


So then...what would you recommend?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Me, I'd kinda' sorta' havta' consider what was causing the actual inflammation. Occasionally, you don't want the swelling to go down too fast if it's going to end up carrying a lot of toxins into the bloodstream. Given that yellowness in this case, that's exactly how I'd feel. Sometimes, the body will effectively wall areas off in order to prevent infections from spreading dramatically through the bloodstream. That's actually one of the dangers of pododermatitis in avian patients--that a nasty bacteria that's being encapsulated in the foot may propagate through the interstitial spaces of the tendons and migrate into the actual body where it can get into some REAL mischief.

Those pictures look pretty bad and I'd probably have gone straight to a Clindamycin or even a combo. My vet would definitely have had to weigh in, too. And it STILL would have been guesses and a significant chance that treatment would have ultimately failed.

Every now and then, you can have an individual that simply doesn't have an immune system worth a crap. In such cases, it's possible to cure them of one thing only to have them come down with something else in fairly short order. And the hardest thing of all to take in such cases is that they're often the sweetest and most lovable of birds.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> So then...what would you recommend?


Well, the links Cynthia has posted and the ones I posted earlier are enough for me to know what I would never recommend on an avian, tea tree oil.

With regards to any joint swelling, I will defer to Pidgey on this, but perhaps it would be best just to give the body and antibiotics a chance to do their job and see how things start to resolve. Swelling is the body's response to an injury, infection or a disease, if it's infection or disease anything topical is not really going to be of much use, as far as I see it. 

If it is an injury, then there are a few options, but first it is extremely important that a determination is made if the injury involved a bone(s) that may need properly set. If there is even a little doubt about this, the bird should be taken to a vet for an x-ray. The use or an anti-inflammatory/pain med, such as Medacam may be indicated, but sometimes a little pain is not such a bad thing, on a case by case basis, as this pain will keep a bird from using the injured limb/wing before it is ready and pain meds, by masking the pain, may prolong the healing of the injury, by premature use.

Karyn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Me, I'd kinda' sorta' havta' consider what was causing the actual inflammation. Occasionally, you don't want the swelling to go down too fast if it's going to end up carrying a lot of toxins into the bloodstream. Given that yellowness in this case, that's exactly how I'd feel. Sometimes, the body will effectively wall areas off in order to prevent infections from spreading dramatically through the bloodstream. That's actually one of the dangers of pododermatitis in avian patients--that a nasty bacteria that's being encapsulated in the foot may propagate through the interstitial spaces of the tendons and migrate into the actual body where it can get into some REAL mischief.
> 
> Those pictures look pretty bad and I'd probably have gone straight to a Clindamycin or even a combo. My vet would definitely have had to weigh in, too. And it STILL would have been guesses and a significant chance that treatment would have ultimately failed.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Pidgey...I've been saying that for months. Kind of like pealing away the layers of onion...but different.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Circovirus in pigeons does exactly that--wipes out their immune system but more so when it hits them while they're still young if I remember correctly. Goodness knows what else can cause it. We tend to believe it because of a gut feeling that comes from our experiences. You see it with some people, too. For a certainty, though, it seems like the meaner you are, the longer you live!

I think I'm going to be around a looooooooooooonnnnnngggg time...

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Plamen, I will continue the debate in this thread, as this is the thread you originally recommended the use of the tea tree oil that I felt was responsible for the death of this bird.

Plamen, I have tried to be as circumspect as I can about this a number of times to avoid a direct confrontation, but I can not in good conscious continue to see you to advise the use of tea tree oil and not say something very direct to you about it.



> After using the tea tree oil on the bird it very quickly deteriorated and began gasping for air. I could do nothing but stand back and watch as this bird that I had worked so hard to help just slowly died. I even diluted the tea tree oil before applying it to his swellings. Can anyone give me some insight into what happened? I don't believe the bird died due to stress because I had to frequently handle him and all was well. Things just went downhill after the tea tree oil.


After recommending the tea tree oil and Rachel posted this, did you not entertain even a glimmer of a thought of cause and effect. That perhaps this heavily aromatic oil caused acute distress in an already weakened bird, thus bringing about death? What is the great benefit this oil is imparting that justifies its risky use in birds?



plamenh said:


> Besides if I share with you that I lost three other of my Salmonella birds treated with Baytrill (no tea tree oil) and provide links with the same content from other users, would you stop recommending Baytrill?


This is a specious argument, equating what could be a wrong choice of drug, or perhaps a misdiagnosis, with an excellent medicine used and recommended by vets around the world, with an aromatic oil that has the potential to bring harm to avians, this argument just does not hold water.

To me if you have not got the hint of harm this oil can bring from the thread you participated in and from the links later posted, then perhaps it's a lost cause, as it seems asking you to refrain or re-think your position is a waste of time. But how will you feel when you suggest this oil again, and this happens again?

Sorry folks, I just don't get it, even a little, suggesting something that can bring harm to a bird that people have come here for help with, and has no real measurable benefit as I see it that is worth the risk.

Karyn


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Karyn, I did already post my thoughts regarding this post you can re-read it on top.
Perhaps heavily aromatic oils induced gaping, perhaps toxins and failure of organs. Perhaps 10 days unsuccessful administration of Baytril or you have selective reading? I already asked this last question, sorry. (Read Pidgey post too)

As for loss of my birds, they were checked by the Vets (more than one) specialized in avian species. They were double and triple checked. Diagnosed with Salmonella. They were prescribed and administered Baytril. All of them died within 7~10 days period, with paralyzed wings/legs, gasping for air. Since then, I’m using Chloramphenicol, one can order it from Chevita.

*I’m sharing my positive and negative experience. *

With TT oil I have only positive ones. Nothing can change the fact that use of TT oil reduced joints swelling and birds recovered. Caution in using it is required as it is required with all medications, remedies, etc.

When going through the links provided above about Tea Tree Oil toxicity consider this:

*Applied on Wound*
The owner of a lovebird applied one drop of tea tree oil to a bleeding blood feather of her lovebird. Within 10 minutes the bird collapsed and was on the bottom of the cage. The bird was rushed to the vet. Fortunately, with intensive care treatment, the bird recovered uneventfully.

*Household items toxic to birds*
Iodine – You recommended it too in another tread on what bases if you are so diligent on the toxicity?
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/mystery-swelling-on-neck-42004-5.html?highlight=iodine#post443461
Tea Tree oil – For topical use only, fumes are hazardous to birds
Supper Glue – Used for skin/beak repairs in birds. Fumes are toxic, yes.

*Toxic for cats*
Dahlia and Aspirin are lethal for cats too. For the sake of completeness, Tea Tree oil is not the only commonly found essential oil. Herbal remedies contain a variety of oils, a number of which are dangerous to cats. Problems commonly occur when an oil safe for use on humans or dogs are used on cats. Incorrect usage of an oil is almost guaranteed to cause problems.

As it looks, you can't change my experience and facts that my birds healed.
I'm not willing to argue with you about your position, but I'll willingly listen on your practical experience. This is what this forum is about, yes?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

plamenh said:


> *Household items toxic to birds*
> Iodine – You recommended it too in another tread on what bases if you are so diligent on the toxicity?
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/mystery-swelling-on-neck-42004-5.html?highlight=iodine#post443461
> Tea Tree oil – For topical use only, fumes are hazardous to birds
> ...





Dobato said:


> Well, Janet this concentration, if my math is correct, works out to be 75mg/Lt of iodine. Since you diluted it 50/50, we are down to 37.5/mg/Lt, or another way to put it, 3.75mg/per 100ml, so say even 10ml remained inside of him, this would be .375mg of pure iodine, not much by any account in terms of LD50. I don't discount it could be causing some GI issues which I would most likely attribute to iodine's ability to probably wipe-out both good and bad bacteria. Therefore, I would also start him on some probiotics to bolster his friendly GI bacteria and see how it goes. You may be right, there could be something else going on, that very well may not be attributable to the iodine, so keep a close eye on him.
> 
> Karyn



Plamen, I did not recommend the use of iodine as you state. If you would have taken more time to read the whole thread you would have come to understand that I was trying to bring Janet some reassurance that what she did with the use of a diluted iodine solution, in my opinion based on facts, would not have brought real harm to Lumpy, the bird she was desperately trying to help. It looks like you probably have spent some time going through every post I have made to this forum to find something I have said to cast my inputs in a bad light, ego is a heck of a thing when it gets involved in defending one's positions.

I will say one last thing on tea tree oil, if you read the links on the warnings against its use you would have read it is highly lipophilic, which means it is very easily absorbed into the body's fat cells where it is transported to the liver causing potential liver toxicity, so it is not just the fumes that are harmful. As for your birds surviving its use, I am very glad for this, and I am sincere about this.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Kind of a quiet morning here so I was just catching up on reading threads.
Unfortunately I know its to late for this poor little bird, I sorry he didn't make it, but I was reading the thread over and had to comment. Hopefully for better results in future cases.
I can't help but notice that it started as possible injury, with the recommendation of Clavamox, then changing to salmonella. 
Whenever I hear "scabbing", I think "injury" from predator and clavamox would be my 1st choice.
*Then as I was looking at the pictures, it is clear in the last picture of the joint, that there is scarring of healing punctures and scratches to the leg.*
I'm not trying to step on anyone's toe's here, but it is obvious _to me_that this little guy was attacked by something. And should have stayed with clavamox as was suggested in the first part of the thread - Also, any scabs should have been carefully removed (can be warm/wet compressed to soften), and cleaned with an antiseptic.
Again, I know its too late for this one, but it's never too late to look back and see what went wrong so we can do better the next time.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i use baytril for animal attacks, which are mostly cat attacks that i get, with and occasional raptor attack, it also works well for infections of the bone


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