# Black tailed pigeon



## NetRider

Hey all,

I was looking through the pictures TAWhatley posted in this other thread, and saw this black tailed pigeon:










Does anyone know how this pattern is created? I have seen it in other breeds as well, and was wondering if its some special gene, or some special mating which can result in birds with such colors.


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## MaryOfExeter

I don't really know what I'm talking about here, but I'm going to give you the best explaination I can come up with and hope its right 
I don't know much about recessive white other than it's usually associated with bull-eyed white birds. It covers up the base color, which could be anything (like recessive red or yellow does). I know recessive red can be weak and the color under it can 'bleed' though to where you see it. I don't know if recessive white can do that or not, but if it can, maybe that's what this is.

This could also be a splash I suppose. Pied markings, splashes, white flights, etc are all caused by the same thing I think - piebald. In my wonderful little theory I created recently, I think pied is more of a random thing that can effect any feather. With certain combinations, you get more white, in certain places. And with careful breeding, you can breed birds with all the same pied codes to were you have those perfect saddles and breeds with only colored tails like this. It reminds me a lot of the stork mark grizzles, but in that case the flights should have some color on them too I think, unless maybe the added white flight covers that up? I don't know, white isn't one of the colors I know a lot on.

Those are my guesses. Hopefully some of the smarter genetics people will come around to tell you what the real answer is


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## jbangelfish

*It isn't recessive white*

Recessive white is pure white, always, no matter what.

These are called tail marks or tail colored. I can't say what it is for sure either. I would guess some form of piebald, but it may take grizzle as well. Stork marks are grizzles but have dark wingtips. If you add white flight (pied) you probably have tail marks.

Bill


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## george simon

*8 Whites*

*Well white is a very complex phenomenon and geneticly there are 8 different genetic whites. ALBINO WHITE, PATTERN WHITE, MIGRATIONAL WHITE, DIRECTIONAL MUTANT WHITE, PIEBALD WHITE, REVERSION to WHITE, RECESSIVE WHITE, EXTREME DILUTION WHITE. Just where this birds with the black or any other color tail fits is differcult to say most likely it may be some form of piebald white. When Frank comes on he may be able to shade more light on this subject.It seems that working with is differcult and most stay from it.* GEORGE


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## jbangelfish

*Hi George*

It seems to be a very well fixed pattern, at least in my experiences with it. I used to raise tail marked fantails, german tail colored owls and saxon spots with very few if any mismarks. The spots had whatever gene gives them the colored snip but never had mismarks on the body and great colored tails. 

Bill


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## george simon

*Hi BILL,I raise Saddle Homers and its very hard to raise well marked birds to meet the standard in their case it seems to be that from the legs back to the vent area is where we seem to have the biggest problem. But white is very differcult to work with, I will be getting rid of most of the saddles.The saddle marking are not well fixed in the racing homer as the racing people bred away from white,while many of the show breeds have a more fixed pattern.* GEORGE


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## bluecheck

Bill/George

There IS a unit factor for the tail color (both white tail and dark tail). I don't have a full understanding of its inheritance, but there is no doubt of it. In fact, I believe white tail has been designated as _wt_ I've been out of the main genetics group loop for a while, but you could ask this out at the Yahoo Pigeongenetics group site and get a more definite answers.


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## NetRider

Thanks for the inputs, keep them coming 

The reason I asked is that I raise high fliers, most of these birds are white, only a few are recessive white, but most are grizzles with very little, or no black on them at all. Then I have some birds with these black tails, but their body has a lot of blue or black as well. Their flights are white though. So I was thinking maybe some special mating here might lead me to only the black tail.

I do have some pairs who produce these white birds with some black flights, and a black tail. When these molt they end up as white birds with white wings and body, but some do keep their black tail markings. There is no guarantee that the tail will stay black though, as they end up replacing some of the feathers with white ones.

What are the chances that these birds can be used to produce a bird with black tail, and who in fact will keep its black tail after a molt?


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## jbangelfish

*Hi George*



george simon said:


> *Hi BILL,I raise Saddle Homers and its very hard to raise well marked birds to meet the standard in their case it seems to be that from the legs back to the vent area is where we seem to have the biggest problem. But white is very differcult to work with, I will be getting rid of most of the saddles.The saddle marking are not well fixed in the racing homer as the racing people bred away from white,while many of the show breeds have a more fixed pattern.* GEORGE



Saddle mark seems harder to control. I used to have some too and mismarks were very common. Seems to me that I read baldhead is in the mix for saddle and may be why they always want to get more color on them. OTOH, they also tend to mismark with too much white, probably another pied factor that is also hard to control.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*Maybe*



NetRider said:


> Thanks for the inputs, keep them coming
> 
> The reason I asked is that I raise high fliers, most of these birds are white, only a few are recessive white, but most are grizzles with very little, or no black on them at all. Then I have some birds with these black tails, but their body has a lot of blue or black as well. Their flights are white though. So I was thinking maybe some special mating here might lead me to only the black tail.
> 
> I do have some pairs who produce these white birds with some black flights, and a black tail. When these molt they end up as white birds with white wings and body, but some do keep their black tail markings. There is no guarantee that the tail will stay black though, as they end up replacing some of the feathers with white ones.
> 
> What are the chances that these birds can be used to produce a bird with black tail, and who in fact will keep its black tail after a molt?


You may or may not have all the genes that you need to make colored tail only birds. I don't really know. The stork marks are homozygous grizzles and usually retain some color in the wingtips and tail. Pied factors can mess this up for you but you'd need something to make the flights white. There are many pieds, whether there is one that only shows in wingtips, I don't know but very possibly.

The earliest tail marked fantails that I remember were stork marks but did not have wing color. The stork marking is from grizzle. Someone figured out how to do this without grizzle and solid color tails came along. Saxon spots and many other breeds also have very solid tail colors with no indication of grizzle. I don't know what it is that is responsible for the marking, but it's very well set.

White tail, as Frank mentions, is another very well fixed pattern. I raised Saxon whitetails and it was extremely rare to have a mismark. Whether it is one separate gene that does this, or a combination of factors, I have no idea. There may very well be a wt factor.

Working with what you have, you may produce birds that are exactly what you want or close to what you want. You just have to selectively breed to get what you are looking for. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. Still, there is some way to fix this pattern as it's been done in many breeds.

Bill


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## spirit wings

what breed of pigeon is that?


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## outcold00

spirit wings said:


> what breed of pigeon is that?


Its looks like a Baku Tumbler or a Armenian Tumbler.


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## dimerro

Armenian tumber is the answer, Baku tumbler is muffed.


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## Pegasus

*Hands up on this 1*

"shrug my shoulder"...I rather keep my ______ and don't say anything...


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## george simon

spirit wings said:


> what breed of pigeon is that?


 Its a GERMAN TAIL OWL,in fact it belongs to a friend of mine he was the only one showing that breed at the Pageant this year. ......GEORGE


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## dimerro

George, you are right, next pigeon is a old german owl too (Expo Dortmund 2008): http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_6/PTULTSDIWPRVQKXVMTX


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## outcold00

The link shows a better picture. It has a small beak. My Armenian tumbler haS a much bigger beak.


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