# Training questions



## derekio (Jan 20, 2012)

loft flying my young birds. The first time i let them out, they all scattered different ways. but all came back within a day.
since then, I let them out, they just go sit on my roof. I chase them off the roof with a flag, small rubber ball, and they just fly to loft..I go there, they go back to roof. and so on..
I am NOT feeding them before I let them out. 
whats my plan of action here?

I should add, they do all trap in


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

do they have a flight pen that allows them to get sun light?


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## derekio (Jan 20, 2012)

TylerBro said:


> do they have a flight pen that allows them to get sun light?


yes. they have 24/7 access to it


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

what time are you letting them out? and how hungry are they?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

TylerBro said:


> do they have a flight pen that allows them to get sun light?


They don't need flight pens if they are out free range in the sun.

They may be eating too much and be to full to fly or they may be to hungry to want to leave the loft, How much do you feed them after they fly? Remember, in the wild pigeons will fly to get food so if they are too full and fat they do not have the will to fly. Also if to empty they do not have any energy to fly.

Also, rather than a flag try throwing a jersey or something up, When it comes down it parachutes out and that scares the birds, They scatter and go up to get out of the way.

Lastly, you do not want to leave them all day, Let them out once or twice a day before feeding. Allow them an hour or so out, hopefully flying the whole time and then trap them back in.


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> They don't need flight pens if they are out free range in the sun.
> 
> They may be eating too much and be to full to fly or they may be to hungry to want to leave the loft, How much do you feed them after they fly? Remember, in the wild pigeons will fly to get food so if they are too full and fat they do not have the will to fly. Also if to empty they do not have any energy to fly.
> 
> ...


i was asking that if they didnt have flight pen ive seen birds that will sit and soak up the sun ... and not want to go back into a dark loft ... 


and i would let them out two hours before sun set that way there natural instinct of roosting will take affect ..

.. i feed mine light the night before flying them .. then i let them fly do my feed call and put feed down for ten mins .. i get some birds that will trap and eat .. after ten mins i pick up the feed ... and then fly again the next day and i bet you the ones that sat out will trap first and quick .. 

If you want them to fly around the loft to work out then your flagging is the number one way used by the "big wigs" 


and are you sure they are pure? some non pure wont fly as much .. and what type of pigeons are they?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

TylerBro said:


> i was asking that if they didnt have flight pen ive seen birds that will sit and soak up the sun ... and not want to go back into a dark loft ...
> 
> 
> *and i would let them out two hours before sun set that way there natural instinct of roosting will take affect .
> ...


Flagging is good, I use it. But when my birds did not use to respond to the flag I used a jersey and because they were not used to it they went up really fast.

I think feed amount is the issue here, Everything else you are doing sounds great.


TylerBro - Like the Oper said, they are not having issues with trapping them so I don't know if letting them out when they want to roost would encourage them to fly? Maybe let them out in the morning when they are energized and excited for the new day.


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

True i was kinda going for a a wide range of stuff ha ha ..


and yeah i use mud balls .. what ever i have around me to throw at them when they sit ... i like the hard mud balls because they kind of explode on impact and make good sound ... 

most people don't have mud balls tho ha ha .. living on a farm i forget about the city FOLK


i would light feed them so they can get up and fly. .. we really need to know what kind they are .. some wont fly no matter what you do ..


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## derekio (Jan 20, 2012)

Here's what I'm doing feed wise. As much as they can eat in 10mins, twice a day. Usually at 8am and 6pm. At about 7am they usually are in the aviary, so I just let them out then from there. Is that too much food? Or not enough? Also, after I let them out, when should I put food in loft?


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

what type of pigeons are they


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## derekio (Jan 20, 2012)

Oh, all birds are offspring of proven diploma winners.


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

how old are they maybe they are still to young?


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## Freebird loft (Jul 17, 2009)

Sounds like they are still too young, healthy YB's will fly naturally without all that flagging and chasing them around. Plenty of oxygen and a light feed such as barley will get them up and going in no time.


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

Try letting them out later in the evening.


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## blue ice (Mar 23, 2011)

I have the same problem. I have a 2 month old pet homing pigeon who doesnt want to loft fly. But I toss the bird for a few hundred yards and goes directly to the loft and trap immediately. AT WHAT AGE SHOULD WE EXPECT THE PIGEON TO LOFT FLY. 

I only have a pair of breeders (prisoners) and they had a single offspring which I'm encouraging to loft fly. Can a single pigeon loft fly or do they prefer to be in a group?


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

I think maybe you could try cutting the feeding to once a day and see what happens. I only feed once in the morning and they are probably getting less than yours. I haven't had a problem with any of the young birds wanting to get up and fly on their own without having to flag. Old birds were a different story... Of course the first week or so the newly liberated young birds just fly from the house to the loft and back again while they are out and I am perfectly happy with that but after a week to 10 days of that a few bold ones will break loose and start flying and within a day or two the whole group usually joins in.


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## luckyloft (Oct 21, 2006)

How many times have you let them out? I would not panic just yet. Mine will usually sit on the loft for a while when I start letting them out.I dont want them taking off right away, I like them to get use to there loft.I do not try to force them off the loft.After a while they will start taking short flights around the loft.Not all at once.Then within a couple weeks they are pretty much flying togeather around the loft. Jeff


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## derekio (Jan 20, 2012)

My problem with them sitting on my roof is that they are dead to rights for hawks. I cant help them on a 2 story house. 
also, if I have to chase them off the roof, and they go to the loft...then I hate to chase them off the loft, as i don't want them to think it's bad to go there..see what i mean there?


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## derekio (Jan 20, 2012)

Matt M said:


> I think maybe you could try cutting the feeding to once a day and see what happens. I only feed once in the morning and they are probably getting less than yours. I haven't had a problem with any of the young birds wanting to get up and fly on their own without having to flag. Old birds were a different story... Of course the first week or so the newly liberated young birds just fly from the house to the loft and back again while they are out and I am perfectly happy with that but after a week to 10 days of that a few bold ones will break loose and start flying and within a day or two the whole group usually joins in.


feed in morning..then you let them fly? or fly first then feed?


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## Freebird loft (Jul 17, 2009)

derekio said:


> My problem with them sitting on my roof is that they are dead to rights for hawks. I cant help them on a 2 story house.
> also, if I have to chase them off the roof, and they go to the loft...then I hate to chase them off the loft, as i don't want them to think it's bad to go there..see what i mean there?


Don't chase them at all when they're that young, let them have a week or so to go out and explore the ground, house roof, porches, etc. After a couple of weeks they'll start flying on their own with the right feeding. Just remember that we're born with legs but must crawl before walking, then running is the next step


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## luckyloft (Oct 21, 2006)

The hawk problem is just going to be part of the game with pigeons.Unless you live where you have no hawks.Training young birds is always my biggest problem with hawks. Jeff


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Are they out all day?

My young birds went up this morning, Came back after 1 and a half hours of routing, I fed them around a tablespoon each, By 5pm they were keen to get back in the sky and stayed up for around 30 minutes, No flagging just got the will to fly.

Once they are old enough they should just go for it


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

derekio said:


> feed in morning..then you let them fly? or fly first then feed?


always feed after flying. you didn't mention how many times the birds have been out. if it's less than 10 times then you are probably just in that time when they are not yet wanting to get up on their own yet and it just happen when they are ready. i know you are worried about the hawks but that's really just part of the deal when the birds aren't quite flying yet and you don't want to be chasing them all over or they might not feel comfortable around the loft.


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## kcirtap18 (Mar 27, 2005)

blue ice said:


> Can a single pigeon loft fly or do they prefer to be in a group?


yeah, can someone please answer this question?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

kcirtap18 said:


> yeah, can someone please answer this question?


Yes a single bird can loft fly.

Pigeons look for safety in numbers (flocks) to increase survival. They have a natural tendency to fly in groups.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

derekio said:


> loft flying my young birds. The first time i let them out, they all scattered different ways. but all came back within a day.
> since then, I let them out, they just go sit on my roof. I chase them off the roof with a flag, small rubber ball, and they just fly to loft..I go there, they go back to roof. and so on..
> I am NOT feeding them before I let them out.
> whats my plan of action here?
> ...



There are many assumptions I am making as I respond to this. I don't know what the time frame is between your "first time I let them out" and when you started throwing things at them. If we are talking days and weeks, I suspect you are getting too impatient. Why don't you allow nature to take it's course, with each passing day, they should develop confidence and begin more trial flights. If we are into weeks and or months, then I would suggest that other issues may be at work here. Otherwise it is completely "normal" and ok for the birds to fly to the top of the loft or house to sit and look around for a few hours as long as they appear alert and healthy. This is part of the imprinting process. If nothing changes over the next several weeks, then we can talk about it, but I suspect that with a little maturity they will do what comes quite naturally.


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## Andyfitz (May 29, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> There are many assumptions I am making as I respond to this. I don't know what the time frame is between your "first time I let them out" and when you started throwing things at them. If we are talking days and weeks, I suspect you are getting too impatient. Why don't you allow nature to take it's course, with each passing day, they should develop confidence and begin more trial flights. If we are into weeks and or months, then I would suggest that other issues may be at work here. Otherwise it is completely "normal" and ok for the birds to fly to the top of the loft or house to sit and look around for a few hours as long as they appear alert and healthy. This is part of the imprinting process. If nothing changes over the next several weeks, then we can talk about it, but I suspect that with a little maturity they will do what comes quite naturally.


Last year I had the same problem and it went into the months What other problems would you be looking into?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Andyfitz said:


> Last year I had the same problem and it went into the months What other problems would you be looking into?


 Health related such as respiratory infections, over feeding your birds, are some examples which come to mind. For normal YB's in good health, they should love to fly.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Health related such as respiratory infections, over feeding your birds, are some examples which come to mind. For normal YB's in good health, they should love to fly.


Warren, How long would you expect a young bird in good health to stay up, Mine fly between 30 and an hour unless they are up with the old birds when its about 15 mins, 30 max. I am wondering if I could get more out of them, If anything they are on the overfed side of the scale without being overfed, My worry is if I cut the feed they may be to hungry to fly long, Start coming in after 15 and realise they don't need to fly so long but still get food at the end.

Wanting your thoughts and any others. I guess Its relevant enough to the thread??


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Warren, How long would you expect a young bird in good health to stay up, Mine fly between 30 and an hour unless they are up with the old birds when its about 15 mins, 30 max. I am wondering if I could get more out of them, If anything they are on the overfed side of the scale without being overfed, My worry is if I cut the feed they may be to hungry to fly long, Start coming in after 15 and realise they don't need to fly so long but still get food at the end.
> 
> Wanting your thoughts and any others. I guess Its relevant enough to the thread??



My thinking in regards to loft training/flying is that more is better. In just a few short months, these birds will be asked to spend many hours on the wing. In my mind, 30 min to an hour of fly time around the loft will not be enough to get them into prime racing condition. 

Now, having said that, the team will go through a number of stages of development. As they get older and begin to sexuality mature, they will become distracted from the task at hand, which is flying, much like college students can become distracted from school work. 

During the earlier part of the spring and early summer on nice days they typically will show more interest in flying and routing. As time goes on and they begin to mature, and the temperatures rise, they typically will spend less time in freely flying around the loft, and thus road work begins to become a more important part of their conditioning.

On these recent cool morning with beautiful sunshine, my team has been left out in early morning and are permitted a bit of open loft till late morning or early afternoon. I like it when they disappear for so long that I begin to fear I had a fly off, and then they show up only to disappear for another half an hour or more. Some of this time is spent returning to the loft, only to take off once again. 

In an ideal world, the YB's would be separated by sex and everything would be designed to get the most amount of flying time. It really does become an art form in that the feed mixture and amounts all play into how much they want to fly and how much time is spent sitting on the roof tops. My best years have been when I got this fine tuned to the point where 2.5 to 3 hours of loft flying was the norm. When they are flying like this around the loft, then it does beg the question as to which is better, an hour and ten minutes or so to navigate home from a 55 mile training toss, or flying for more then twice that amount of time around the loft ?


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Health related such as respiratory infections, over feeding your birds, are some examples which come to mind. For normal YB's in good health, they should love to fly.


I must not have normal YB's. I almost never get my YB's to loft fly for more then 15 mins. Everybody is like you saying my birds are sick or somthing if they don't fly. But when the races come they are right there at the top of the sheets. I've got a guy who live about 600 feet from me who's birds fly for hours but my birds who don't loft fly beat his birds 90% of the time. I always thought if you let a bird out of the loft and it wants to be away from the loft for 3 hours like you said in one of your posts. Why would they rush home when they are let up in a race?


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I must not have normal YB's. I almost never get my YB's to loft fly for more then 15 mins. Everybody is like you saying my birds are sick or somthing if they don't fly. But when the races come they are right there at the top of the sheets. I've got a guy who live about 600 feet from me who's birds fly for hours but my birds who don't loft fly beat his birds 90% of the time. I always thought if you let a bird out of the loft and it wants to be away from the loft for 3 hours like you said in one of your posts. Why would they rush home when they are let up in a race?


Just a thought, but your birds may not loft fly very long because you don't let them out for the first time till June.....too hot to fly very long and older birds generally don't want to fly as much.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I must not have normal YB's. I almost never get my YB's to loft fly for more then 15 mins. Everybody is like you saying my birds are sick or somthing if they don't fly. But when the races come they are right there at the top of the sheets. I've got a guy who live about 600 feet from me who's birds fly for hours but my birds who don't loft fly beat his birds 90% of the time. I always thought if you let a bird out of the loft and it wants to be away from the loft for 3 hours like you said in one of your posts. Why would they rush home when they are let up in a race?


 I don't know what to make then of your situation. It is somewhat counterintuitive to everything I have thought up to this point. Birds which don't want to fly around the loft, beating birds which love to fly and do so for hours. 

The 2nd part of your statement of why would they rush home from a race ? The answer to that lies within the motivation of the individual bird, ie. flying home to a roost, a nest box, a certain female, for food, a drink, etc. At the start of the day they are ready to get out of the loft, may even knock you over if you get in the way, but then after they had their work out, they are ready for some good chow. 

My suggestion would be if you are happy with the race results you currently are getting, then perhaps you shouldn't change anything just because that is what other fanciers are doing. At the end of the day, your indiviual results will tell the story, and not how well you follow someone elses ideas or system.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I always thought if you let a bird out of the loft and it wants to be away from the loft for 3 hours like you said in one of your posts. Why would they rush home when they are let up in a race?


The way my youg birds are trained they almost never loft fly for more than 15 to 20 min. unless there is a hawk around.

Here is what I know about birds that "loft fly" for more than a hour. Our club house in Michigan was a building behind our club presidents house. On the way to a meeting one day I saw a good sized flock of pigeons picking around in a farmers field about two miles from the club house. A little while after I got there Tony our club president says hey look you guys there comes my young bird team their going to kick some but this year, they've been loft flying for more than two hours every time I let them out. I never did tell him and he had a bad young bird season that year... LOL


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Just a thought, but your birds may not loft fly very long because you don't let them out for the first time till June.....too hot to fly very long and older birds generally don't want to fly as much.


That could be a good reason for the YB's not flying but the guy down the block his birds are flying while mine are out and mine just sit and watch. And it's the same with my OB's there's guys who have thier OB's going for hours like the guy who lives down the block his birds fly and fly and mine don't go off the coop. So I have to force them to fly by tossing them. But I rather have them fly home on a toss then, them just flying around the loft so it works out good for me. Plus with all the hawks picking off the guy down the blocks birds I rather have them only fly around here for a few mins before they land then be up in the air around my house for an hour. But I did get a few times last year where the birds stayed up for another hour after they got home from a toss because the hawk would sit on my landing board and they were too scared to land. The first couple times I didn't know why they were staying up that long but after I seen him sitting on the landing board when I got home I knew he was there whenever I would get home and they were still up flying.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

ace in the hole said:


> The way my youg birds are trained they almost never loft fly for more than 15 to 20 min. unless there is a hawk around.
> 
> Here is what I know about birds that "loft fly" for more than a hour. Our club house in Michigan was a building behind our club presidents house. On the way to a meeting one day I saw a good sized flock of pigeons picking around in a farmers field about two miles from the club house. A little while after I got there Tony our club president says hey look you guys there comes my young bird team their going to kick some but this year, they've been loft flying for more than two hours every time I let them out. I never did tell him and he had a bad young bird season that year... LOL


I used to see sombodies YB flock land down at the local beach picking the little pebbles. The closest flyer must have been about 2 miles from that beach but they were there almost every day. At first I thought they were park rats but one day I went over to check if there were any with bands and the whole flock was banded. Mean while that guy thought his birds were flying for hours but they weren't. I tried to catch one to see who's they were but I couldn't get close enough.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

"park rats"?.....ut oh..


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I must not have normal YB's. I almost never get my YB's to loft fly for more then 15 mins. Everybody is like you saying my birds are sick or somthing if they don't fly. But when the races come they are right there at the top of the sheets. I've got a guy who live about 600 feet from me who's birds fly for hours but my birds who don't loft fly beat his birds 90% of the time. I always thought if you let a bird out of the loft and it wants to be away from the loft for 3 hours like you said in one of your posts. Why would they rush home when they are let up in a race?


I am beginning to agree with you. I am beginning to notice that certain birds are different. I have some like yours. But my test is different. I have these birds that stay on the roof and when a hawk/falcon comes they are the ones that show speed, stamina and survivability. And I have birds that love to fly, but when a falcon comes or other predators they get taken. Obviously I find this puzzling myself. I thought the one that flies the most get the most exercise ,thus have more stamina. Nevertheless I believe they are an exceptions.

My guess is that if you have good birds, but still don't like to fly much, if you breed them, then your flock might end up like them as well.

Now from my experience most young birds should start flying when they are 2 months old and will end up routing/ranging out around 3 months. But each bird has different abilities. Some are earlier. Some are later. Some are followers and some are leaders. When one bird takes off some will follow. Some will stay put. That one that flies alone I think has independent thought and could be a leader. The drawback is that it attracts predators.

If your young birds are not flying check the following: feeding(overfed or underfed), sick(most likely respiratory--whether it is obvious or not), age(may still be too young--thus hesitant and still memorising the location), quality(bad birds don't like flying, but check the exceptions as I mentioned above), and weather. There are probably other reasons which others may know and not yet mentioned.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> "park rats"?.....ut oh..


Thats what we've always called ferals around here. I have nothing against the birds that live in the parks I actually love going down and feeding them. I even have some that have taken up residence in my lofts after they followed my birds home from tosses. Most racers would say I'm crazy they'll get your birds sick.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello to Derekio. Did we answer all your questions? I have never raced pigeons. My question to you is Do you plan on racing your birds? Are they sprinters or long distance? 

If you want to fly them like tipplers then get a pair of tipplers and fly your young with them. 

I would be afraid of my young sitting on my rooftop, therefore do not let them if you can by putting up a hawk and cat proof all wire cage on top of your loft with a few young in it so they can watch the sky. 

I agree that you are certainly overfeeding them. Try an ounce of barley, or 1:4 rice and millet( 20% rice 80% millet). At first try the barley so they can loose some fat and became light. 

Always fly them on empty from the day before and trap them ASAP. 

There is something about pigeons and that less than 15 minutes of flagged up flying. Young birds like to learn from their elders so they feel safe just sitting around with food in their belly, listening to their parents' love songs. Homing instinct is bred into racers so well that they come home from many strange locations without training. 

Overtraining birds makes them hawk bait for sure. The sick, fat or lazy birds land and hide when being preyed upon. Smart ones scatter with lightning speed and regroup when safe. Long distance race birds need certain amounts of fat for reserve energy so overflying them and not building up fat back up can equal to losses during races. Good luck to you if you are into racing.


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