# Why am I being ignored when I shake my can?



## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

If homers are food driven....then why do mine ignore me when I know that are hungry? Please help with this scenario....
Third time to release, so the birds do know how to enter the loft.

*Yesterday...*
9:30 am (lightly) fed birds (later than usual, because I slept in)
6:15 pm released 4 birds
all stayed together circling area and landing on church roof. Just before dark began to shake can and call, they continued to circle, then vanished.
Night falls, all 4 birds still out.

*Today...*
6:15 am all birds on church roof, shake can and call, all begin to circle approx 3 times then lead bird enters loft but the other three keep going...landing on church and circling totally ignoring me! I continue calling and shaking can but they just keep flying around and landing on the church. At 8:30 / 8:45, I give up and figure they'll just come in when their ready... obviously not when I want them too! So I give up and go to porch.
9:05 all 3 enter loft. 

I can understand that since I fed them later than usual, why they may not have been hungry enough to come in by dark...but they would have been really hungry by this morning, but still would not enter.

Advice pleaseeeeee


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

First how much are you feeding them. . should be 1 ounce in the morning 1 ounce in the evening. give or take a little acording to how they are holding up. Now you may need to regroup them Regulate there feeding for say 3 days while you encourage there trapping and responce to feed. If they are landing on a church They are not flying much. Might take them down the road to get road traing in. start with a couple of miles and move them up to 5 , 10 and 20 tossing 2 times at each distance. they should never go and just sit. So road training may get them flying better. HOW old are these birds


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

2 are 10/11 weeks. Other 3 are 6 to 7 weeks. All are trap trained very well to the sound of the can and call. 3 of these birds trapped in just before dark the night before with no problem at all! It is so confusing as to why they do so well one day, and so terrible the next! lol


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

If they are really hungry, they would be down trapping, sounds like you have to pull back on the feed, and make them real hungry. If your not racing then it really does not matter, they will come in at dark.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

1 ounce per bird per day---feed only once per day. Most times late in the day.
They don't come when you shake the can--They don't eat


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Noahs helper said:


> 2 are 10/11 weeks. Other 3 are 6 to 7 weeks. All are trap trained very well to the sound of the can and call. 3 of these birds trapped in just before dark the night before with no problem at all! It is so confusing as to why they do so well one day, and so terrible the next! lol


They should be flying well by now. I would make sure they are not getting over fed. agin 1 ounce in the morning. 1 ounce in the evening. Hold your morning feeding and then release them in the after noon. DO NOT feed then release release them let them fly and try calling them in to feed. do this for a couple of days then go back to feeding 2 times daily. remember fly then feed not feed then fly. takew notice to see if they are routing if so start them down the road 1 mile 2 mile 5 mile do 2 times each distance. from 5 jump them to 10.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

We use food to get birds in and since we feed twice a day the birds eat twice a day. Here is how we do it.
1. Measure your food, guessing wont get it until you are getting response from your birds.
2. At morning feed measure 1/3 oz for each bird.
3. Call birds in. First bird in gets lots of food. Last bird in probably won't get anything.
4. Give the birds 5 minutes of calling. After 5 they are going hungry.
5. Pick up food after 10 minutes. DO NOT DUMP EXCESS ON FLOOR.
6. At evening feed measure 2/3 oz for each bird. 
7. Repeat 3-5.

There is another thread here where I talked about how my son and I got our birds trapping better. It took a bit of effort but now we can get them to drop straight into the loft just by voice call. There are 3 of us managing the birds and they respond to all of us the same so they can get it. 

Next year we may move to the 1 feeding per day and only one fly per day. If we do that we will give them longer to eat.


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

If your birds tend to perch more than they fly, they obviously need less food.
My birds free fly from the loft and spend lazy warm days sitting atop the carport or stretched out on the lawn ... I want them this way.
My regimen is this. They are let out at mid morning to exercise ( which is little more than occasional short flights lasting several minutes). At about 6.30pm I give the birds a 1 & 1/2 oz measure each in the feeder which is left in the loft until they are let out the following day. My whistle or call of "come on ladies" becomes a mob scene of 20 birds all trying to be the first in the loft.

Generally there is always a little uneaten seed left in the feeder at night but it is always gone at let out.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your posts and advice! Yes, I admit it, I do not measure...I guess at it, so I must be overfeeding.
I feed them twice a day and only fly them late evening.
The days that they fly, I lessen the a.m. feeding, but obviously not lessening it enough. I will start measuring and see how it goes. I guess I've spoiled them and made them lazy because they spend as much time on the church roof as they do flying!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

If you are only flying once a day, only feed once a day. i think I would adopt the "leave it down" method that maniac describes, but you won't kill them if you just cold pigeon them to one feeding. I can almost guarantee that the first time they skip breakfast the will just about kill you when you shake the can at dinner. 

As to measuring… $20 at a Walmart will get you a digital scale that will help you about 15 different ways. Weighing birds, measuring food, measuring dosages, pretty much anything. Go for the digital. The spring scales wok, but it is just much easier with the digital.


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## The_Dirteeone (Apr 18, 2010)

I had that problem,and actually skipped a day ,after them refusing to trap nearly till dark,and they knocked me down the neaxt day when I shook the can.I was no doubt feeding to much.Think about it,if they dont respond to the can,they are risking getting killed by the hawk.At least thats the prob where I live.I have lost 3 birds in the last month and I really let them stay out too long.After cutting back on the food they almost come back on command.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

*routing / ranging*



re lee said:


> They should be flying well by now. I would make sure they are not getting over fed. agin 1 ounce in the morning. 1 ounce in the evening. Hold your morning feeding and then release them in the after noon. DO NOT feed then release release them let them fly and try calling them in to feed. do this for a couple of days then go back to feeding 2 times daily. remember fly then feed not feed then fly. *takew notice to see if they are routing *if so start them down the road 1 mile 2 mile 5 mile do 2 times each distance. from 5 jump them to 10.


Would you please explain to me in layman's terms, what exactly routing and/or ranging mean? I cannot seem to find an actual explanation on the subject. And my new book hasn't arrived yet! lol


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> If you are only flying once a day, only feed once a day. i think I would adopt the "leave it down" method that maniac describes, but you won't kill them if you just cold pigeon them to one feeding. I can almost guarantee that the first time they skip breakfast the will just about kill you when you shake the can at dinner.
> 
> As to measuring… *$20 at a Walmart will get you a digital scale *that will help you about 15 different ways. Weighing birds, measuring food, measuring dosages, pretty much anything. Go for the digital. The spring scales wok, but it is just much easier with the digital.


Is this a certain type of scale? Or the typical bathroom type, that lie? lol


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

Noahs helper said:


> Is this a certain type of scale? Or the typical bathroom type, that lie? lol


I use a digital food scale from Wally world.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Noahs helper said:


> Is this a certain type of scale? Or the typical bathroom type, that lie? lol


Jan, you can buy a digital scale that will measure in ounces. I have a salter scale that I bought online. It measures in ounces and in grams. Easy for weighing the birds. You can buy a table top scale that measures in ounces, like for diets, to measure your feed.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

The Walmart scale is over in the kitchen utensils isle. It has a flat glass top and will measure in oz (1/10ths), lb, gr, and kgr. There are 2 of them. You need the cheep one.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Noahs helper said:


> Would you please explain to me in layman's terms, what exactly routing and/or ranging mean? I cannot seem to find an actual explanation on the subject. And my new book hasn't arrived yet! lol


Your birds start flying larger distances "exploring" the surrounding area. From the ground it looks like an empty sky and sounds something like "OH CRAP!! MY BIRDS ARE GONE!!!!!!" Then, like magic, about 15 minutes before feeding, they show up and start making passes to see if you are bringing the food. At this point the birds are pretty much just like teenagers, and their view of you is the same. Your only point of existing is to provide food, shelter and protection. 

You'll know when it happens because you will look at your fingers and wonder where your nails went.


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

Noahs helper said:


> If homers are food driven....then why do mine ignore me when I know that are hungry? Please help with this scenario....
> Third time to release, so the birds do know how to enter the loft.
> 
> *Yesterday...*
> ...


they r going to church, maybe they need confession.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> Your birds start flying larger distances "exploring" the surrounding area. From the ground it looks like an empty sky and sounds something like "OH CRAP!! MY BIRDS ARE GONE!!!!!!" Then, like magic, about 15 minutes before feeding, they show up and start making passes to see if you are bringing the food. At this point the birds are pretty much just like teenagers, and their view of you is the same. Your only point of existing is to provide food, shelter and protection.
> 
> You'll know when it happens because you will look at your fingers and wonder where your nails went.


Oh this is perfect. Too funny!


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

Routing or ranging is when your birds go out of sight for an hour or two or longer.They are basically having a look around your area and other areas.This is how they get to know there whereabouts and is invaluable when you come to toss and race your birds.Its is primarily done by young birds.As they get older they will stick to just flying around near your home.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Oh this is perfect. Too funny!


But true, yes? Or is my experience unique?


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## Nictorious Ali (Jul 1, 2010)

Lol when you break it down like that Jayseen, I feel so barbaric!


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks everyone! I am working with the different ideas you all have given me and figuring out what will work best. Obviously something has got to change because my teenagers are acting like brats! lol 
All 5 of them were let out on Tues a couple of hours before dark. They were so beautiful (ALL FLYING TOGETHER FOR A CHANGE)! lol They would fly out of sight to the east and I was like a periscope watching north... east... south..., east...north...east...south...etc wondering where in the heck they were. Then they would miraculously come flying over my head from the west headed east again! So they are flying so far out that I can't see them! They did this for about 35 mins before landing on the church roof! (so this is ranging???)They sat there for awhile then began flying all around the roof, not landing much just flying around it. I start the can shaking and calling...for an eternity then... dark comes and they are back on the roof! NO WAY were they interested in coming in the loft! So, loooong story short...the next evening, just before dark they finally enter. So food is now being weighed and I am going to try some our you alls ideas this weekend! These birds are skipping *two* meals to stay out on that roof! Attaching a pic of the infamous church roof.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

And to put things into perspective...see the little white thing in the far right of the pic? That's their loft! So if I were a pigeon...guess I'd skip a few meals too to get to stay up there! lol


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

jeo73 said:


> they r going to church, maybe they need confession.


If they keep this up...*I'M* going to need confession! lol


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

Have Faith My Son.!!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Oooo. That may be a problem. Pigeons like high. Lets them see what is out there. The also like open. Let's them see what's out there. Funny thing is, hawk like high. Easier to get too. Hawks like open. Easier to get too. Over my way I have 2 barns to contend with, a small forest, and a pile of steeples. My barn will be the new flying loft/castle but my neighbors... not the right place to land. To make it worse it is 45' to the apex where the bird hang out. So you are no alone.

Here is my observation. When the birds are eating too much they sit on the wrong barn, or a tree, or even a steeple. When they are almost right, they sit on a tree or the wrong barn. When they are nearly perfect the sit on my barn which acts as a staging area for my fairly small landing area. When they are hungry they sit on my barn but every time a person moves they fly on the loft. When they have missed quite a bit of food the fly our the exit, make one circle then become one with the loft stall trap. Had 3 of them stacked in one stall at one point. Thing is you don't want your birds so hungry that they are unhealthy. It is turning out to be a bit tricky.

One other observation: We discovered we have 3 different lines. One line is a sprinter line and they are high strung. Another is a middler line and they are pretty lazy. The third is all distance (400+ or they laze about) and they are trouble makers. The printers eat a ton, all the time. They are never full. The middlers won't stop eating until we pull the grain and will eat themselves to being sick. The distance birds don't seem to eat. Always the last ones in and the first ones perching. But that self regulate and go all day (2+ hours of routing 2x a day). We have had to start "shift feeding" to make sure that folks are getting the right amount of food. The middlers are nearly always getting kicked out of the feed now an the sprinters are pulled aside and fed extra. We have it down to 1.2 oz/distance, 2 oz/middler, 3 oz/sprinter (this is day amounts). With this we have not had a problem getting birds trapped on call. I huge PITA but it works. My observation to share would be "make sure you are feeding the _right_ amount to the _right_ bird".

At this point I may need 6 more lofts just to make feeding less stressful on the humans!


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> Oooo. That may be a problem. Pigeons like high. Lets them see what is out there. The also like open. Let's them see what's out there. Funny thing is, hawk like high. Easier to get too. Hawks like open. Easier to get too. Over my way I have 2 barns to contend with, a small forest, and a pile of steeples. My barn will be the new flying loft/castle but my neighbors... not the right place to land. To make it worse it is 45' to the apex where the bird hang out. So you are no alone.
> 
> Here is my observation. When the birds are eating too much they sit on the wrong barn, or a tree, or even a steeple. When they are almost right, they sit on a tree or the wrong barn. When they are nearly perfect the sit on my barn which acts as a staging area for my fairly small landing area. When they are hungry they sit on my barn but every time a person moves they fly on the loft. When they have missed quite a bit of food the fly our the exit, make one circle then become one with the loft stall trap. Had 3 of them stacked in one stall at one point. Thing is you don't want your birds so hungry that they are unhealthy. It is turning out to be a bit tricky.
> 
> ...


This is a very interesting post! I am always with my birds during feeding and I have wondered why such a difference in their eating habits. 3 of them seem to eat about the same, seems pretty normal to me. But I have 1, the youngest, that is the first to and from the feed. I thought because it was young that it just ate slower, therefore taking it longer. Then there is 1, that doesn't seem to care if it eats or not, even to the point that I have been a little concerned, but it flies like none of the others! And they do as you say, they come closer to the yard, fly around the loft more or sit on the roof of the house but do not trap.I have often wondered if their eating habits are affecting them not wanting to trap. Meaning, are some hungry enough to trap, but they are staying with the others because thay are not hungry enough to trap!?! But I just keep thinking that they are young and this is all new to them!?! I would love to hear others comment on this .


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

NH,

I checked with the suppliers and these traits care through from the parents. There are always "odd birds" but in my case the 3 families seems to share these eating habits. It might be worth a call to see how your birds line eats.


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

In my neighborhood, it's a very high telephone pole. There's always at least one lag behind when I shake the can. Oddly enough, it never seems to be the same bird. Once they learn that hanging out on the pole might mean they stay out all day (when I have to leave for work) or they miss a meal, they come charging in. Keep in mind, it's taken several months to get to this point with them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Seems to me that if you have to start worrying about how much each individual bird needs and is getting, then it's getting too much like work. Feeding more to some and less to others. Yep. Too much like work.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Jay3 I know what you mean. Right now it is only 8 birds and we are new enough not to care. I doubt we will feel that way much longer.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Noahs helper said:


> This is a very interesting post


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

First new attempt failed. I measured the food this morning, and they only ate about half of it because they will only eat the small things, no popcorn,peas,lentils etc. Let them out 12 hours later thinking they would be hungry and come in before dark. Nope, they are all 5 sitting on the lines just above the loft. Off the church roof is a start...but they need to be in their loft! Taking a more extreme approach tomorrow.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

sky tx said:


> 1 ounce per bird per day---feed only once per day. Most times late in the day.
> They don't come when you shake the can--They don't eat


Okay, gave them 1oz each this morning at 6:30, they didn't even eat half of it. Let them out 12 hours later, they did not come in.
So, in the morning IF they come in I am not going to feed them. I will wait and feed them at 6:00 pm, normal evening feeding time. So, do I keep them inside til time to feed, or give them the option to fly and try to get them in at evening feeding? Or does it even matter? lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well I think if you were to let them out tomorrow, they may be hungry enough to come back in when you shake the can.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Well I think if you were to let them out tomorrow, they may be hungry enough to come back in when you shake the can.


One can only hope! lol


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2010)

if they are not eating it all you are feeding them to much and until they are hungry they wont be coming in to your call , it is a fine line between feeding them to much and not enuf but if there is left overs after 20 minutes you are still feeding them to much 

p.s. its always better that they are a little hungrier then to full ,it truely does keep them safer when you can get them in faster then having the hang out on the loft even for a few minutes !


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> if they are not eating it all you are feeding them to much and until they are hungry they wont be coming in to your call , it is a fine line between feeding them to much and not enuf but if there is left overs after 20 minutes you are still feeding them to much
> 
> p.s. its always better that they are a little hungrier then to full ,it truely does keep them safer when you can get them in faster then having the hang out on the loft even for a few minutes !


That is why I am going to skip the morning feeding tomorrow and see if one feeding a day will solve this problem. I am so afraid that something is going to happen to them if do not get them trapping to the call. If I can get them under control, then maybe I can go back to twice a day, just not as much at one time. Wish me luck!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wishing you tons of Luck!


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

they r young birds, like he said, if u r not racing, they ll come back at night, cut back on the feed, bad habits are hard to break, good luck


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2010)

Noahs helper said:


> That is why I am going to skip the morning feeding tomorrow and see if one feeding a day will solve this problem. I am so afraid that something is going to happen to them if do not get them trapping to the call. If I can get them under control, then maybe I can go back to twice a day, just not as much at one time. Wish me luck!


its true once they get into the habit of trapping quicker they usually stick to it , the fact that they are young and not paired up also adds to it ..once they are paired up and have adopted a nestbox they do tend to trap in faster too just so you know  other then that food is all you got to get them in faster and at the end of the year it is better that they trap faster as hawks get thicker once fall comes into full swing and the migration of all wild birds begins which is their normal food source that they rely upon


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

NH,

Don't skip to many meals and make sure that you have food in the feeder only when you are calling. If you have already skipped, only give them enough to whet the appetite. Also feed them a little at a time. If they are "leaving half of it" then you are starting off with too much in the feeder and leaving it down too long. 

I would suggest that short feeding is better than skipping as this keeps them getting enough food to stay healthy, but not enough to feel full. Instead of a straight skip, only give them 1/2 the ration or if they are persistent only give them 1/4. 

And just because we all say 1oz doesn't mean that is the right amount for your birds. Your birds may only eat 1/2oz/day. Don't fixate on the numbers, but use them as guidelines while you fine tune things to your flock. 

Let us know how it turns out.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the thing is also, when you call them in to eat..you have to feed them, That is the reward. they will expect it and that should be the routine... then skip an AM feeding while they are locked in the loft... you don't want them to come to a call and there be no feed..even a few grains would be better than nothing.. if you have to wait a few days and adjust the feed to make it right then let them out after that when you got your feed right.. you know when you go to feed them they act starving scrabbling to get at the feeder..when you know how much your giving to get that reaction ..THEN let them out...but get the feed right first. they should act the same coming in from when you were doing it from the settling cage, you can go back and do that again too if you don't want to let them out, and practice it... get your feed correct and then see what kind of reaction you get from them trapping in from the settling cage... then you know you got it about right.. the feed ration thing will change with the seasons too...in winter they have more hunger and may need a bit more feed...so this adjusting feed thing is almost an art... you watch your birds..THEY tell you when they have been fed too much, or fed just right to be hungry..


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

amen to that, skipping feed is not the answer, just lock the birds for a while, them reduce feed and release, younger birds do that a lot, feed is the only motivation they have.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> the thing is also, *when you call them in to eat..you have to feed them, That is the reward. they will expect it and that should be the routine... then skip an AM feeding while they are locked in the loft... you don't want them to come to a call and there be no feed*..even a few grains would be better than nothing.. if you have to wait a few days and adjust the feed to make it right then let them out after that when you got your feed right.. you know when you go to feed them they act starving scrabbling to get at the feeder..when you know how much your giving to get that reaction ..THEN let them out...but get the feed right first. they should act the same coming in from when you were doing it from the settling cage, you can go back and do that again too if you don't want to let them out, and practice it... get your feed correct and then see what kind of reaction you get from them trapping in from the settling cage... then you know you got it about right.. the feed ration thing will change with the seasons too...in winter they have more hunger and may need a bit more feed...so this adjusting feed thing is almost an art... you watch your birds..THEY tell you when they have been fed too much, or fed just right to be hungry..


They have been out all night. This morning at 7:15, they were on the church, I shook the can and called, they flew over and went back to the church ignoring me. So, I have ignored them. At 9:30 I didn't see them anywhere, went to the loft and I have 5 hungry birds looking at an empty feeder. So they trapped in on their own without a feed call. NO, this tuff love thing is not easy, it took all I had in me to walk away. But I did not shake the can or call them, I am hoping this will help teach them that if they do not come to the call, then they have missed a meal. I've had one survive a hawk attack, it's a site I don't want to ever see again. So I am doing everything possible from others advice to try and prevent it. I will not make them wait til 6:00 feeding, but I am going to wait them out until afternoon. I love my birds and take very good care of them. But at this point, safety comes first, I just hope that I can get them under control before anything bad happens to them by being out all night and hanging around on roof tops. If you feel this is too harsh, I welcome your comments, just wanted to be clear as to what actually took place this morning.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Noahs helper said:


> They have been out all night. This morning at 7:15, they were on the church, I shook the can and called, they flew over and went back to the church ignoring me. So, I have ignored them. At 9:30 I didn't see them anywhere, went to the loft and I have 5 hungry birds looking at an empty feeder. So they trapped in on their own without a feed call. NO, this tuff love thing is not easy, it took all I had in me to walk away. But I did not shake the can or call them, I am hoping this will help teach them that if they do not come to the call, then they have missed a meal. I've had one survive a hawk attack, it's a site I don't want to ever see again. So I am doing everything possible from others advice to try and prevent it. I will not make them wait til 6:00 feeding, but I am going to wait them out until afternoon. I love my birds and take very good care of them. But at this point, safety comes first, I just hope that I can get them under control before anything bad happens to them by being out all night and hanging around on roof tops. If you feel this is too harsh, I welcome your comments, just wanted to be clear as to what actually took place this morning.



that is not the point, they need to know the loft is food, reguardless of when and how they go in.. if they are not coming to your call, put feed down and wait for them to come in on their own and then go lock them up.. start over with the trap training and the feed call.. adjust the feed so they come in from the settling cage quick without hesitation..they will only do that if they are really hungry....note how much feed you had given the last time..if they come in from the settling cage slow, back off the feed, even if it is just a few grains scatterd in the feeder... you can adjust the feed from the settleing cage, when you get that right...then try again... Calling them in is one thing, them seeing the loft as where the feed is, is another thing you have to instill, if they come in when they want and no feed they do not have motivation to even come in at all... they did, as you said come in at some point..they were hungry so reward them for even coming in they need to be fed something..not the other way around, they don't know they made a mistake..they came in the loft to eat.. that is what you want... so now work on the feed ration to get them hungry enough to come to the call...


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

if u call, and they dont come in, skip feed until next feeding time, i think u have to lock those birds and retrain on calling or soomething, lock them up for a week so they can get used to ur calling


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is confusing to me. Some say that when they call their birds in, the ones that don't come in, when they come in late, they don't get fed, period. That makes sense, as they need to learn to associate that feed is down when you shake the can, and they need to respond to it. 

But what you say spiritwings also makes sense, that they have to associate the loft with being fed. I think they do associate the loft with being fed, as that is where they are fed. I guess you're right in that they have to be hungry. It isn't like training a dog. First, they have to be hungry, then when they hear the feed call, they should come. Does the fact that they are so young and are just enjoying their freedom have anything to do with it? That even if they are really hungry they will ignore the call? Does everyone go through this when training their birds? 
If you feed them whenever they come in, doesn't that just teach them that they don't have to come to the call, because anytime they come in, they will get fed? Also, then they are being fed twice a day again, if they come in in the morning, but feed time is at say 6 pm. I don't know, as I haven't had to go through this.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> that is not the point, *they need to know the loft is food, reguardless of when and how they go in.. if they are not coming to your call*, put feed down and wait for them to come in on their own and then go lock them up.. *start over with the trap training and the feed call.. adjust the feed so they come in from the settling cage quick without hesitation*..they will only do that if they are really hungry....note how much feed you had given the last time..*if they come in from the settling cage slow*, back off the feed, even if it is just a few grains scatterd in the feeder... you can adjust the feed from the settleing cage, when you get that right...then try again... Calling them in is one thing, them seeing the loft as where the feed is, is another thing you have to instill, if they come in when they want and no feed they do not have motivation to even come in at all... they did, as you said come in at some point..they were hungry so reward them for even coming in they need to be fed something..not the other way around, they don't know they made a mistake..they came in the loft to eat.. that is what you want... so now work on the feed ration to get them hungry enough to come to the call...


They have been trapping for weeks from the settling cage to the loft to feed.
They are so good at it, that they don't even wait for the can anymore, they trap in immediately. But I still shake the can even after they start eating to keep them familar with the sound and relate it to trapping for feeding time. So...there is no problem with them knowing that food is in the loft. There is no problem with them knowing the sound of the can means food. There is no problem with them knowing that they have to trap to get to the food. All of this has been conquered, the problem is this....they ignore all they have learned once they get their freedom. So much so that they always skip 2 meals before trapping back into the loft. Is it because they are overfed? Their food was 1 oz each yesterday morning and they didn't trap til 9:30 this morning. Or is it because they want their freedom more and willing to skip meals to have it? Or is just because they are young? I have got to figure out which of these three it is! At 3:30 today, I added more smaller seeds to the feed (to be sure that they will get enough of the things that they WILL eat) measured out 1 oz each and had them trap from the cage to eat. Yes, they were hungry. It took them 30 minutes to finish and there was probably a tablespoon of the larger items left in feeder. Now I can only hope that when I release them tomorrow....that they will trap when called.
All comments welcome............


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

You are still over feeding. 

1. You added what they _will_ eat.
2. You let them eat for 30 minutes.
3. There was food left after they were done.

As hard as this is going to be, you need to stop being so nice if you want to control the birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> You are still over feeding.
> 
> 1. You added what they _will_ eat.
> 2. You let them eat for 30 minutes.
> ...



Just trying to understand. If they are fed once a day, early evening, then how much would you feed? Or would you only give them a certain amount of time to eat? Even if they are only being fed once a day, is that still over feeding?


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Just trying to understand. If they are fed once a day, early evening, then how much would you feed? Or would you only give them a certain amount of time to eat? Even if they are only being fed once a day, is that still over feeding?


Yes, I'm not understanding either.
1 oz per bird is not even the maximum that some say to feed once per day.
Some say 10 minutes to eat, mine take 30 to eat this amount.
The reason for adding was this...the younger ones do not eat the larger seeds. So yesterday they left almost half of the food. So for fear of them not getting ENOUGH,...I added more smaller seeds.

Obviously I am missing a big part of this puzzle, please help me to understand.


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## eshghekaftar (Mar 7, 2009)

Feed once a day after they trapped in all they can eat in 15 minutes.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well that's pretty clear.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

eshghekaftar said it very succinctly. And stop changing the feed mix. They need to eat the bigger seeds. Once they are hungry the will clean their entire plate very fast.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> This is confusing to me. Some say that when they call their birds in, the ones that don't come in, when they come in late, they don't get fed, period. That makes sense, as they need to learn to associate that feed is down when you shake the can, and they need to respond to it.
> 
> But what you say spiritwings also makes sense, that they have to associate the loft with being fed. I think they do associate the loft with being fed, as that is where they are fed. I guess you're right in that they have to be hungry. It isn't like training a dog. First, they have to be hungry, then when they hear the feed call, they should come. Does the fact that they are so young and are just enjoying their freedom have anything to do with it? That even if they are really hungry they will ignore the call? Does everyone go through this when training their birds?
> If you feed them whenever they come in, doesn't that just teach them that they don't have to come to the call, because anytime they come in, they will get fed? Also, then they are being fed twice a day again, if they come in in the morning, but feed time is at say 6 pm. I don't know, as I haven't had to go through this.


I know it does seem confusing, esp when someone has to explaine it..lol.. it is one of those things you learn when you free fly birds..so for someone who does not..it is hard to imagine..the ones who get no feed are already experienced birds that know the routine..these guys are young and just learning they have not got the routine down yet..they are just having a good time out there and not sure what the routine of the feed/come get is and they are just not hungry enough..it is really that simple... the feed has to be adjusted..and only the handler can know how his/her birds act and adjust accordingly.. it is hard to tell someone how and how much to give when they are not there to see and watch the birds...it comes with experience..she just has to keep at it.. and give the birds a break they are young and still learning and the feed should be in the loft for them..because they did trap in... they will get it at some point when the feed is right...


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

At this point we have 8 birds. They all know "Breakfast is at 9 and dinner is at 7". We have had the same schedule since they showed up July 19. Every bird traps. No one is confused. So we know that any bird that doesn't come in is just being stubborn. It misses a meal. 

One thing that we did to allow me to make above statements is extra settling cage time. We spent 3 weeks just settling birds. Some were 6 weeks old, others were 4 weeks old. But we did not remove the settling cage until ever single bird trapped at meal time (can shake). This means the know the call. It got to the point that they would trap in before we were ready if we were 2 minutes late. This proves that they know the time. 

You may want to consider 2 steps backward to get 3 steps forward. Go back to settling your birds and training them to come on call. Take this time to reset meal rations and dial in on what your birds need. Once they show you that they get it, then let them out again. 

We just received 2 new birds for non-prisoner breeding. So I get to "start over" with these guys. To complicate it they will be in with the rest of the flyers. This should be fun and we will get to practice all this again.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> I know it does seem confusing, esp when someone has to explaine it..lol.. it is one of those things you learn when you free fly birds..so for someone who does not..it is hard to imagine..the ones who get no feed are already experienced birds that know the routine..these guys are young and just learning they have not got the routine down yet..they are just having a good time out there and not sure what the routine of the feed/come get is and they are just not hungry enough..it is really that simple... the feed has to be adjusted..and only the handler can know how his/her birds act and adjust accordingly.. it is hard to tell someone how and how much to give when they are not there to see and watch the birds...it comes with experience..she just has to keep at it.. and give the birds a break they are young and still learning and the feed should be in the loft for them..because they did trap in... they will get it at some point when the feed is right...


THANK YOU! I think you said it all right here. From what I am seeing in my situation, which as you say,no-one else can. Is that they are young and right now, wanting to fly more than eat. Most times when they are on the church and I call them...they fly right down over my head around the loft a few times, then back to the church. This tells me that they are in their way, responding to the call, but like I said, they want their freedom more because they are not flown everday, this is all new to them and they are loving it!. I have cut back on feed as suggested, and yes it has brought them in a little sooner. But I honestly believe that I would almost have to starve them to get them in until they are ready to come in. I think if I continue to adjust feed and fly them more often as everyone has suggested... the NEW WILL WEAR OFF..as you could call it, and they will mature to all this. At least I hope they do! lol


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

measuring feed, think of a can of campbell's soup.. 11oz...that whole can with feed in it would feed 11 birds..back off that full can for 11 birds to get a response and you can see how little a pigeon needs to live on...one feeding can fit in the palm of your hand for 4 birds, try using a tomato paste can.. to measure the ounces and gage the ration to their reaction.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I know it does seem confusing, esp when someone has to explaine it..lol.. it is one of those things you learn when you free fly birds..so for someone who does not..it is hard to imagine..the ones who get no feed are already experienced birds that know the routine..these guys are young and just learning they have not got the routine down yet..they are just having a good time out there and not sure what the routine of the feed/come get is and they are just not hungry enough..it is really that simple... the feed has to be adjusted..and only the handler can know how his/her birds act and adjust accordingly.. it is hard to tell someone how and how much to give when they are not there to see and watch the birds...it comes with experience..she just has to keep at it.. and give the birds a break they are young and still learning and the feed should be in the loft for them..because they did trap in... they will get it at some point when the feed is right...



Okay, thanks. Makes sense what you are saying.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> eshghekaftar said it very succinctly. And stop changing the feed mix. They need to eat the bigger seeds. Once they are hungry the will clean their entire plate very fast.


Your absolutely right...once I started measuring...they love the peas, popcorn, lentils, sunflower etc! lol 

I'm just really bad about spoiling.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

*feed*



spirit wings said:


> measuring feed, think of a can of campbell's soup.. 11oz...that whole can with feed in it would feed 11 birds..back off that full can for 11 birds to get a response and you can see how little a pigeon needs to live on...one feeding can fit in the palm of your hand for 4 birds, try using a tomato paste can.. to measure the ounces and gage the ration to their reaction.



I am experimenting with 1 cup when they trap in, in the evening (they leave a small amount, so they are full). Then early to mid morning 1/4 cup. This amounts to a bit over 1 oz per bird in 24 hrs. So they are hungry when they trap in, but not starving and shoving. They also came in a little earlier yesterday! Hope this keeps up, if not, I can cut back on the cup.

I really want to try to keep feeding twice a day, this gives the best flexibility for my schedule and gives me a chance to hand feed the 1/4 cup when I am home. It's so rewarding that I now have 4 of the 5 eating from my hand! 

Wish us luck all...things are looking up!!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Noahs helper said:


> I am experimenting with 1 cup when they trap in, in the evening (they leave a small amount, so they are full). Then early to mid morning 1/4 cup. This amounts to a bit over 1 oz per bird in 24 hrs. So they are hungry when they trap in, but not starving and shoving. They also came in a little earlier yesterday! Hope this keeps up, if not, I can cut back on the cup.
> 
> I really want to try to keep feeding twice a day, this gives the best flexibility for my schedule and gives me a chance to hand feed the 1/4 cup when I am home. It's so rewarding that I now have 4 of the 5 eating from my hand!
> 
> Wish us luck all...things are looking up!!!



yes they are!!!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I timed our 8 birds feeding. 6 minutes till the "light eaters" were all done, 10 till the plate was "dry" (some feed still left, but no one eating). Our entire feed time is all of 10 minutes when all the birds trap and get full ration. I know it has taken us longer in the past, but I thought I would put that out there.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> I timed our 8 birds feeding. 6 minutes till the "light eaters" were all done, 10 till the plate was "dry" (some feed still left, but no one eating). Our entire feed time is all of 10 minutes when all the birds trap and get full ration. I know it has taken us longer in the past, but I thought I would put that out there.


That is a good point..it is another way to feed.. some just guess at the amount and just put the feed down for 10 mins or however long you think they need to still be hungry the next feeding and take it up, they tend to not be as picky also when they know it won't be there after the feeding time. saves measuring.. but for beginners I think it is good for them to measure to see physically how much or really how little they need..one of the biggest misktakes or learning things really is over feeding birds when trying to train them.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

SW, we do measure. We give them a tad more than we should right now as they are "growing boys and girls" (almost 2 oz/bird). I was rereading some of the thread and noticed how long Noahs_helper and you were leaving the food out and started wondering what our time was like. After 10 minutes the birds were "done" but clearly not starved (there was food left in the feeder). It might be because we have so few birds but our 2' feeder really isn't big enough and birds stack up to get to the food (it is funnier watching 3 of them trying to get through 1 stall in the trap at the same time). 

I will say that none of our birds laze around at feeding time. Belly up to the bar or go hungry seems to be the one overriding theme.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> SW, we do measure. We give them a tad more than we should right now as they are "growing boys and girls" (almost 2 oz/bird). I was rereading some of the thread and noticed how long Noahs_helper and you were leaving the food out and started wondering what our time was like. After 10 minutes the birds were "done" but clearly not starved (there was food left in the feeder). It might be because we have so few birds but our 2' feeder really isn't big enough and birds stack up to get to the food (it is funnier watching 3 of them trying to get through 1 stall in the trap at the same time).
> 
> I will say that none of our birds laze around at feeding time. Belly up to the bar or go hungry seems to be the one overriding theme.


Thanks Jaysen, I thought you were talking about folks who just dump feed in and time it instead of measure.. so really if you take the feed up after 10 mins you don't have to measure it..lol.. when young birds just learning the routine should always have some feed reguardless of when he comes in IF YOUR NOT A RACER.. really that is over kill IMO for pet birds.. just adjusting the feed lower to get them in when one wants is all that is needed.. perhaps when they are older and you have one bird out lolly gagging around..he may not get his part.. but for none racing folks..it really does not matter.. the ration at this point is to set a rountine and pattern for the young, then she can do whatever she wants once they learn all this.. now that mine are trained to come in the loft to eat, and know how to trap.. they are free fed and come and go as they want... but if I have to leave my property for some reason while they are out.. (it would be an emergency)..I just lower the traps in case they want to get in, but a hawk can not. If I wanted to only fly my birds for a few hours and want to call them in..then I would have to go back to the rationing and calling in.. but I don't do that.. once they are out they are out and come in at dusk.. well they fly and then rest and go in and out of the loft at will.. they enjoy it and they are not race birds so they do not have to be so strict on a routine,


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

SW we are planning to race and these are our "learn how it works" birds. These birds are also our "breeding stock" for next year (we have a few prisoners, but really wanted as many fliers as possible). So these guys _might_ race old bird but not likely till '12. 

Short story long, we are really trying to establish the habits for both the birds and the humans to prepare for racing. Eventually we would like some "house bird" that will get the freedom you offer, but everyone wanted to focus on racing first. So now we have fast trapping and eating, hungry birds.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> SW we are planning to race and these are our "learn how it works" birds. These birds are also our "breeding stock" for next year (we have a few prisoners, but really wanted as many fliers as possible). So these guys _might_ race old bird but not likely till '12.
> 
> Short story long, we are really trying to establish the habits for both the birds and the humans to prepare for racing. Eventually we would like some "house bird" that will get the freedom you offer, but everyone wanted to focus on racing first. So now we have fast trapping and eating, hungry birds.


of course that is what you need to do.. I had Noah's birds in mind which are not race birds and she is not going to race them as far as I know.. that is what I was talking about..lol... you have to train strict to get that fast trap in for racing.. I know that is what YOU have to do with your birds..


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I forget that not everyone is racing. Thanks for reminding me. 

BTW, I will certainly be looking to you for advice when i get my "pet" whites this spring. These will be house birds. open loft with the current plans to use a small unheated gable as a loft for them. It actually opens off the master suite (soon to be office) through a small doorway. While everyone says "whites are the same" they don't seem to get "racing birds aren't the same a pets that you keep IN your house". 

Anyway. I'll cross that bridge when I get there.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> I forget that not everyone is racing. Thanks for reminding me.
> 
> BTW, I will certainly be looking to you for advice when i get my "pet" whites this spring. These will be house birds. open loft with the current plans to use a small unheated gable as a loft for them. It actually opens off the master suite (soon to be office) through a small doorway. While everyone says "whites are the same" they don't seem to get "racing birds aren't the same a pets that you keep IN your house".
> 
> Anyway. I'll cross that bridge when I get there.


if your just going to loft fly your whites, then any healthy white homer stock will do.. they are quite beautiful flying around the house... not so good at racing..lol.. but there are exceptions..(had to put that in there before someone posted " what do mean white birds don't race."..bla bla bla..lol) Your plan sounds cool!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I figure we will wind up with a white or two in the racing loft but they will be _my_ birds, not the boys. 

My loft projects have been pretty low key as they are not much. But I think I will be posting "progress" on the the "Castle" (the barn) as well as the "attic" when I start them. both of them will be retrofitting preexisting large structures, much like the European attic lofts, which does not seem to be well documented. I will be using shadybug_loft's raised flooring with some modifications. I will be providing design drawings for several pieces that the boy and I have "developed" for cost and purpose. Particularly our sectional walls and nest box/hall way modules. Our current set up is being used to prove some of the critical components but we won't know until we put the birds in the big structures. 

But there I go again. Short story made long.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

*Couldn't ask for better!*

One proud mama! lol
Let the babes out at 6:15, let them fly for 20 minutes then tried calling them in. Took about 5 minutes and here they came...right to the roof and trapped right in! Since days are shorter and I got home late, I didn't have much time before dark... I only had 20 minutes to let them fly to see if they would trap to call... or wait til dark. Appears they've answered the call!
No landing on roof or power lines! Straight from the sky to the roof and immediately trapped in!
Hot diggity dog!!!
Once they do this a couple more times...I'll feel like we've got it licked! lol


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2010)

Noahs helper said:


> One proud mama! lol
> Let the babes out at 6:15, let them fly for 20 minutes then tried calling them in. Took about 5 minutes and here they came...right to the roof and trapped right in! Since days are shorter and I got home late, I didn't have much time before dark... I only had 20 minutes to let them fly to see if they would trap to call... or wait til dark. Appears they've answered the call!
> No landing on roof or power lines! Straight from the sky to the roof and immediately trapped in!
> Hot diggity dog!!!
> Once they do this a couple more times...I'll feel like we've got it licked! lol


trapping quick is a must , it has nothing to do with racing or what not cuz when fall comes around you will want your bird to not lollygag around or the hawks will have no problem taking them from you one by one so keep the trapping quick or the hawks will use your loft as a drive in and hit you up every day if you let them .. and thats the bottom line !


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's wonderful news Jan. I'm glad they're getting it. You must feel very happy right now.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> trapping quick is a must , it has nothing to do with racing or what not cuz when fall comes around you will want your bird to not lollygag around or the hawks will have no problem taking them from you one by one so keep the trapping quick or the hawks will use your loft as a drive in and hit you up every day if you let them .. and thats the bottom line !


you can not say that is how it is going to be at her place, it certainly is not at mine...hope she is as lucky.... you have hawk problems, so you think everyone else does..... cutting back on the feed does make them trap quick that is the point.... and sounds like she is getting it right.... good going Noah!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Congrats. Now comes the hard part. 

You have to be consistent. You also need to make sure you are feeding them enough to stay healthy. You may want to increase the feed a little at a time, say 1/2 oz every 2 days, until you have them "eating their fill" but still trapping on call. It is very easy to feed to much so you have to pay very close attention to behaviors while feeding as well as when you call. 

Let me ask you a question: still having fun with this? We are. I hope you are too.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> That's wonderful news Jan. I'm glad they're getting it. You must feel very happy right now.


Jay, ECSTATIC is more like it! YOU know what a rollercoaster ride it's been for me! LOL


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> Congrats. Now comes the hard part.
> 
> You have to be consistent. You also need to make sure you are feeding them enough to stay healthy. You may want to increase the feed a little at a time, say 1/2 oz every 2 days, until you have them "eating their fill" but still trapping on call. It is very easy to feed to much so you have to pay very close attention to behaviors while feeding as well as when you call.
> 
> Let me ask you a question: still having fun with this? We are. I hope you are too.


No worries here, I watch them very closely at meal times. Measuring, seeing how much they eat, how much they leave, being sure that they are not appearing too hungry. 
That's one of the reasons that I split their mealtime into evening and another small amount in the morning, so they are not going all day without eating, but giving them just enough in the morning that they will still come in rather than stay out all night.
And yes, I am having lots of fun now that they are not staying out at night or lounging on the church roof! lol


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Originally Posted by LokotaLoft 
trapping quick is a must , it has nothing to do with racing or what not cuz when fall comes around you will want your bird to not lollygag around or the hawks will have no problem taking them from you one by one so keep the trapping quick or the hawks will use your loft as a drive in and hit you up every day if you let them .. and thats the bottom line ! 



spirit wings said:


> you can not say that is how it is going to be at her place, it certainly is not at mine...hope she is as lucky.... you have hawk problems, so you think everyone else does..... cutting back on the feed does make them trap quick that is the point.... and sounds like she is getting it right.... good going Noah!


No Spirit, I'm not so lucky, we've had a run-in with a hawk already. It took a few feathers from the back of one of my oldest first time out. She's fine now, feathers are back, but oh how lucky she was! At that point I was ready to give up and never fly them again..I was not willing to lose my pets! But they are created to fly. So I decided they had to be trained better, and fast. That is why all the questions and all the advice and options I could get from ALL of you, so they have the best possible chance of survival when they fly.
So both of you are right...we have hawks...but we are also learning to be as safe from them as we possibly can!
Thanks to both of you, and everyone else that has responded to my requests for help!


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

Weather temperatures will also have an effect on the amount of feed you put out. Obviously colder temperatures will increase the birds metabolism rate as they burn more calories to maintain body heat .... therefore a little more. Opposite with warmer temperatures.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Noahs helper said:


> Originally Posted by LokotaLoft
> trapping quick is a must , it has nothing to do with racing or what not cuz when fall comes around you will want your bird to not lollygag around or the hawks will have no problem taking them from you one by one so keep the trapping quick or the hawks will use your loft as a drive in and hit you up every day if you let them .. and thats the bottom line !
> 
> 
> ...


I had a hawk stike the first time out with my youngins also.. but it is nothing like Lakota has going on....and if it was, you would have no birds now...so what Im saying is you are there, we are not..so you may not have as big as prob as Lakota, and to say that you do is not correct .. unless time tells you otherwise... it is different everywhere. and really it is not important what goes on at others lofts as your not in the same part of the country.. it would be like me saying to you...oh no prob..I almost never have a hawk attack here and you should not either.. no, it will just depend on your unique place and you watching to see and how YOU should fly or not..... either way.. they will trap quick if they are hungry, which is what you want in the end.. which is the meaning of this whole thread....


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Far as hawks go around here from about april 1st to october first . a person is rather safe from hawk Attacks But from oct, to april The coopers are rather bad And the bird that do not trap well get hit. Never used to be that way but coopers are protected and made a good come back. And often when the hawks get bad the birds start trapping even faster. But its still good to train the birds to trap well as you get better results They fly they trap. . Some people give open loft and the birds get some bad habits. Neighbors do not like the birds sitting on there roofs. And that happens with open loft and birds that do not trap well.. I have a friend though that races And will have about 250- to 300 birds in the air And they do sit his loft until training and race season then they run to the trap. HIS loft is a house. he bought the house next to him and made it into a loft its about 1000 to 1200 square feet. He keeps up to 600 birds has 2 more lofts 8by20 feet. So some rules do not matter I guess But still good to get them trapping well for the birds sake Any way there fun to just sit and watch fly.


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