# My dove looks like his legs are paralysed or dead. please help!.



## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Hello, i need urgent help. one off my doves that is about close to 2 months, can't walk anymore on his legs but crawl.i notice about close to a month ago,that he was only walking with one off his legs. he was still eating so i thought he would get better in time. but now both off his leg look like if there paralysed.he can only crawl now. and when he does he seems to be in pain. i attach a couple off pics off him/her so hopefully somebody can point me in the right direction on what i should do. Please help :/


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe, I'm sorry about your bird. Whereabouts are you located please?


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Hello, i'm located in san jose california usa. I'm not sure if i have too, take my dove to the vet. i'm currently very low on money :/


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Does the poop look normally or is mucous? I met two cases of coccidiosis - paralysed pigeons. The one that is still with me partially recovered with administration of A vitamin.




Other causes can be calcium - defficiency, bacterial or other kind of bone or articular infections. Does she displays signs of pain when the leg is moved or touched? That may indicate such infection. A radiography would help in such situation, to determine if the infection is at bone or articulation, as if is at articulation, would need Fosfomycin treatment, this being an antibiotic able to penetrate the articular capsule.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

She poops normally, and seems to be in alot off pain when she crawls. i haven't really tried touching her leg to see if she reacts, differently since i'm very scared about possibly messing up her legs further. i try not to touch her at all. also she seems to be breathing very fast. Is going to the vet the only option?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> She poops normally, and seems to be in alot off pain when she crawls. i haven't really tried touching her leg to see if she reacts, differently since i'm very scared about possibly messing up her legs further. i try not to touch her at all. also she seems to be breathing very fast. Is going to the vet the only option?


If you love this pet, it is best to bring into an avian vet or exotic vet especially since you are in San Jose and the services are available. There are no avian
vets here at Pigeon Talk to walk you through first time successful treatments and you are describing a very sick bird. If you can pay something up front, 
they may well allow you to make payments over time.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Don't know if you drive or have friend/relative who can get you there but if a half hour drive isn't gonna kill you, you might try this guy:

http://www.wildwoodvet.com/sanders.htm

He is very knowledgeable and will probably be able to help you by asking the right questions and ruling out.... not by running up a bill with expensive tests.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

as painful as this is to say,i'm not sure if i'm gonna be able to do it :/ i got so much bills to pay rent/car/student debt a that i could seriously get kick to the curb and become homeless, if i fall even more behind on what i owe  any estimation on the amount i'm looking at to save my bird? i'm already getting depressed thinking that i'm most likely gonna lose her :/


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Ijoe said:


> She poops normally, and seems to be in alot off pain when she crawls. i haven't really tried touching her leg to see if she reacts, differently since i'm very scared about possibly messing up her legs further. i try not to touch her at all. also she seems to be breathing very fast. Is going to the vet the only option?


Then is probably bone infection, though articular infection may also be considered.






These are radiographs I made with two pigeons. 


The first two radiographs show a leg bone infection caused by a bacteria. The affected bone is the tarsus of the left leg, near the ankle joint. 
The first radiograph was taken on 2nd February 2014:















After an inefficient treatment from a vet (he was giving me some liquid in a syringe which I was supposed to give orally) and a pause in treatment, 
a new radiograph on 14th March 2014 shown the advancement of the infection toward other bones:










At this moment I started treatment with injectable Lincospectin and the bird started to stay on the leg, showing no more signs of pain. She was still limping. 
Unfortunately, she escaped before I finished the treatment and with a candida resulted from antibiotic treatment. Here is the full story:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/internal-destruction-of-bone-72461.html












The second case is with articular wing infection. After treatment with Fosfomycin, the bird recovered. Now she can fly pretty well, not perfectly though. 
The radiograph shows the inflamation at wings' "elbows":


















Ijoe said:


> as painful as this is to say,i'm not sure if i'm gonna be able to do it :/ i got so much bills to pay rent/car/student debt a that i could seriously get kick to the curb and become homeless, if i fall even more behind on what i owe  any estimation on the amount i'm looking at to save my bird? i'm already getting depressed thinking that i'm most likely gonna lose her :/




Can you afford an antibiotic treatment? I can guaranteee for the efficiency of injectable Lincospectin in such case and maybe other general antibiotics could be good as well.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> as painful as this is to say,i'm not sure if i'm gonna be able to do it :/ i got so much bills to pay rent/car/student debt a that i could seriously get kick to the curb and become homeless, if i fall even more behind on what i owe  any estimation on the amount i'm looking at to save my bird? i'm already getting depressed thinking that i'm most likely gonna lose her :/


You are calling your dove a he...but is this a hen?

I'm pretty sure under $100 and I can send you meds most likely.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Has the bird recently laid eggs?


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

@ feral I apologize for the confusion. i'm not entirely sure. not really sure, how to tell. no my dove has not layed eggs, it's not even 2 months yet.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

@ andre how much moneyare we talking about? i'ts gonna somewhat hard to treat my bird by myself. i'm very newish when it comes to stuff like that. i can post more pics off my dove, if any of you think that could help. just tell me what kind. I need to get some rest. hopefully i can still get some assistance tomorrow.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Ijoe said:


> @ andre how much moneyare we talking about? i'ts gonna somewhat hard to treat my bird by myself. i'm very newish when it comes to stuff like that. i can post more pics off my dove, if any of you think that could help. just tell me what kind. I need to get some rest. hopefully i can still get some assistance tomorrow.


Maybe some US member can help you with this info. The treatment will take several weeks or months, with session of 3-days of antibiotic administration followed by 1-2 weeks pauses. Three days is you use injectable antibiotic, more days if you use oral antibiotic. There is also need of anti-candida medication during this period, as well as administration of probiotics, vitamins and if possible, hepatoprotective supplement.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> Maybe some US member can help you with this info. The treatment will take several weeks or months, with session of 3-days of antibiotic administration followed by 1-2 weeks pauses. Three days is you use injectable antibiotic, more days if you use oral antibiotic. There is also need of anti-candida medication during this period, as well as administration of probiotics, vitamins and if possible, hepatoprotective supplement.


Hopefully, i'm able to get the money for all of that :/ maybe feral can help me with that info.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Since this has been going on for more then a month, i advise the same, that the bird should be seen by a qualified avian vet. 

Are you giving the bird any calcium supplementation? She may be severally lacking. Do you have any oyster shell grit? She should have access to direct sunlight too.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I have no idea what ailments she is suffering from but hope and pray that will all the help here she recovers soon.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

During treatment, Calcium and D3 vitamin (or Calcium only, if bird gets direct sunlight) are necessary for the rebuilding of the destroyed bone tissues.

And is necessary to hurry up, as infection advances and the recovery may not be as complete as if treated early.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Ideal would be having your dove examined by an avian vet such as dr speer at medical center for birds in oakley. If that is not possible try googling bird rescues near San jose. Don't know if they can help but it is an option. In your area there are a lot of places within driving distance. Try contacting Palomacy. Hope you can get your poor dove some help.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> @ andre how much moneyare we talking about? i'ts gonna somewhat hard to treat my bird by myself. i'm very newish when it comes to stuff like that. i can post more pics off my dove, if any of you think that could help. just tell me what kind. I need to get some rest. hopefully i can still get some assistance tomorrow.


Ijoe,

Don't know how this went from coccidiosis to 'most likely bone infection' but to be clear, none of us are avian or exotic vets and this is not a diagnosis. Any avian or exotic vet that you bring your dove to will not recommend a treatment plan for something that one of us has drawn up from the aethers. 

I can possibly help you if the doctor prescribes something that I have on hand by mailing to you so you don't pay out of pocket. If they recommend something that I don't have, then you'll have to find a way to procure what the Dr. has recommended. Dr. Sanders is used by many bird folk and is close enough to you not to be a burden to take the bird to. I called and asked for you...new client exam is $70.00.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cwebster said:


> Ideal would be having your dove examined by an avian vet such as dr speer at medical center for birds in oakley. If that is not possible try googling bird rescues near San jose. Don't know if they can help but it is an option. In your area there are a lot of places within driving distance. Try contacting Palomacy. Hope you can get your poor dove some help.


Hi cwebster,

I know Brian and Geoffrey in Oakley and am familiar with the drive which is pretty long for me without adding the extra time coming from the San Jose area would involve.

The reason I gave Ijoe the link for Dr. Sanders is that a bird rehabber I know does bring birds (pigeons/ducks) to Dr. Sanders and is very pleased with his demeanor, prices and diagnostic skills. Dr. Sanders is used by Palomancy folk, he is a known commodity. I'm just trying to make this be less overwhelming for Ijoe by narrowing down the choices. This is a three day weekend coming in and I'm hoping Ijoe can call this morning and have the dove seen today.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

No one should diagnose and or treat over the Internet. If you can't afford a vet then give the pet to someone who can.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Ijoe,

How is your dove doing today? Were you able to get an apt. with Dr. Sanders and also locate some calcium (with D3 if an indoor bird)?
Hope all is working out.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

spirit wings said:


> No one should diagnose and or treat over the Internet. If you can't afford a vet then give the pet to someone who can.


Is not diagnose. Is changing ideas. I guess this is what this forum is about.

The T.O. mentioned that bird displays intense pain. If not a fracture, the most probable (if not the only) other explanation is a bone infection. And you (and other) members here recommend antibiotic treatment for a wide range of problems, why not do this as well? If there is a bacterial infection, time is crucial in stopping its spread. 


Ofcourse, ideally would be the bird to get professional examination, but if not possible, the next best thing is to start an antibiotic treatment. And if the bird is examined, radiography is the most needed thing.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Ijoe,
> 
> How is your dove doing today? Were you able to get an apt. with Dr. Sanders and also locate some calcium (with D3 if an indoor bird)?
> Hope all is working out.


 He/she is still the same :/ has been eating. I was going to actually call up dr sanders today, but since i don't drive, I take public transportation everywhere. Ihad to be one 100 percent sure, i could get a ride there. thankfully one of my friends agreed to drive me there tomorrow. I just hopefully get lucky, and they have room available tomorrow. If not then i think i'm gonna have to take it to a dove rescue center :/since it's gonna be almost impossible to go on the weekdays  And can anybody recommend me a calcium (with D3 for birds? i been trying to search for some online, but no luck. Not sure if this helps, but the mother of this bird never took a calcium supplement. or this bird.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> Is not diagnose. Is changing ideas. I guess this is what this forum is about.
> 
> The T.O. mentioned that bird displays intense pain. If not a fracture, the most probable (if not the only) other explanation is a bone infection. And you (and other) members here recommend antibiotic treatment for a wide range of problems, why not do this as well? If there is a bacterial infection, time is crucial in stopping its spread.
> 
> ...


 I'm getting very confused, andre told me i could most likely cure this with a antibiotic treatment, which he did. and others are telling me this is not possible.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> He/she is still the same :/ has been eating. I was going to actually call up dr sanders today, but since i don't drive, I take public transportation everywhere. Ihad to be one 100 percent sure, i could get a ride there. thankfully one of my friends agreed to drive me there tomorrow. I just hopefully get lucky, and they have room available tomorrow. If not then i think i'm gonna have to take it to a dove rescue center :/since it's gonna be almost impossible to go on the weekdays  And can anybody recommend me a calcium (with D3 for birds? i been trying to search for some online, but no luck. Not sure if this helps, but the mother of this bird never took a calcium supplement. or this bird.


You can just go to a health store and get liquid calcium (again if indoor+D3)
or for that matter a pet store that carries bird supplies. Call first to see what they have.

Did you call today to set up an appointment for tomorrow? I have no idea if he is open on Sat., though I think Dr. Spear in Oakley is but that's hecka long haul for you.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> I'm getting very confused, andre told me i could most likely cure this with a antibiotic treatment, which he did. and others are telling me this is not possible.


He has thrown out several possible diagnosis and sure of all of them. We aren't avian or exotic vets. Hell, I worked rehabbing pigeons w/a wildlife center for around 10 years and treated thousands of birds, but in your dove's situation, it is inappropriate to do an armchair diagnosis especially when you live in San Jose with good access to veterinarian care. The doctor first of all went to school for this and this is all he does all day long. Having a hands on visit with the doctor he will be able to evaluate if a hen or no, and be able to give you his educated medical opinion. Maybe it will involve antibiotics, but give your dove the benefit of someone
knowledgeable giving him/her an exam. Throwing antibiotics indescriminately at the bird has it's own risks especially in your dove's serious condition.

Again, _if_ Sanders suggests antibiotics that I have on hand, I don't mind mailing. Let the doctor have a look, please....


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

feralpigeon said:


> You can just go to a health store and get liquid calcium (again if indoor+D3)
> or for that matter a pet store that carries bird supplies. Call first to see what they have.
> 
> Did you call today to set up an appointment for tomorrow? I have no idea if he is open on Sat., though I think Dr. Spear in Oakley is but that's hecka long haul for you.


Can it be any calcium/d3 liquid supplement ? or does it have to be pet? he/she stays mostly outdoors. I couldn't call today, since i wasn't sure i could go tomorrow, until my friend agreed to drive me there. i checked and he's open on saturdays.hopefully he has a extra spot open. If not, i'm not sure if it would be a smart idea to wait another week, and have his condition worsen . i'll probably have to take him/her to a dove rescue center :/


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> Can it be any calcium/d3 liquid supplement ? or does it have to be pet? he/she stays mostly outdoors. I couldn't call today, since i wasn't sure i could go tomorrow, until my friend agreed to drive me there. i checked and he's open on saturdays.hopefully he has a extra spot open. If not, i'm not sure if it would be a smart idea to wait another week, and have his condition worsen . i'll probably have to take him/her to a dove rescue center :/


Yes, it can be a human preferably liquid calcium w/D3. What ever it recommends for a dose, give about 1/4 of that.

Just make sure that you set your alarm and call right when they open.
Are you talking about a dove rescue center where you sign the dove over to them? I hope they will fit you in tomorrow. See if you can get the calcium this evening.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Ijoe said:


> I'm getting very confused, andre told me i could most likely cure this with a antibiotic treatment, which he did. and others are telling me this is not possible.


They may not be very forth seeing for moment in respect of what can be the cause of the bird's problem and what can be done. 

If you read any thread on this forum, you most often gonna see them recommending either metronidzole for canker or Baytril for bacterial diseases, or both, and they are not wrong, because these two category of diseases are the most frequent in digestive and respiratory problems and you may try one or both of them when you're not sure and most likely see a positive response.

In the area of locomotory problems, at skeleton and muscle, canker is not the most common pathogen but bacterias. Also, coccidia can cause leg paralysis, according to this site.


Trying an antibiotic treatment can't harm. I'm pretty sure you gonna see radical improvement in two days, as it happened to me. I used to see significant improvement during each session. 


If after the first session you don't see improvement, stop the treatment.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with several here that a diagnosis from an avian vet is critical. Then you can see about treatment. Please take the bird in. He or she is lovely and deserves to be helped.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> Agree with several here that a diagnosis from an avian vet is critical. Then you can see about treatment. Please take the bird in. He or she is lovely and deserves to be helped.


That is always the case. But when you cann't do that, you have to rule out one by one the possibilities, starting from the most probable. This is what specialists recommend, also the members of this forum. 


If you do nothing, the disease will advance to being unrecoverable and to death. And here, the most probable cause is bacterial, I hope you agree. In fact, it make no sense to threat for canker or something else.


The possibility of fracture can also to be considered. For fracture also is vital the antibiotic treatment. There is no choice here.


So starting of antibiotic treatment is *urgently necessary*, even if the T.O. plans to go to a vet later. If the problem is caused by a bone infection, pain will disappear after two days of treatment with injectable antibiotic (Lincospectin and I think Baytril as well), as it happened to me.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> That is always the case. But when you cann't do that, you have to rule out one by one the possibilities, starting from the most probable. This is what specialists recommend, also the members of this forum.
> 
> 
> If you do nothing, the disease will advance to being unrecoverable and to death. And here, the most probable cause is bacterial, I hope you agree. In fact, it make no sense to threat for canker or something else.
> ...


 I somewhat agree with with andre. i need to take action now, the more days i wait, the more sick my bird will become. i'm not even guaranteed i'm going to see dr sanders tomorrow, since i have to wait until my friend comes back from work, around 3. Not sure if dr sanders will even have any have any available spots to see me. what if he's full? then what am i going to do on sunday when he's closed. 



I have very limited options guys, i don't own a car. i take public transportation everywhere i go. I have limited funds. if i had a car, then i would seen dr sanders by now. Most off my friends work a 9 to 5 job, so going to see dr sanders at the time he's available is very hard.


I just feel helpless not being able to do anything. I sometimes think, maybe i should just euthanize the bird so it can stop suffering  It's a horrible feeling seeing your bird suffering, breathing really fast and not being able to really do anything :/ knowing is death is probably soon. because ofthings you can't control.

I was wondering if you could give the list of the treatments, you recommend me andre. And if somebody in this forum could point me on where to get the items. If it doesn't work, and god forbid my dove passes away. at least i would know in my heart i tried my hardest to save my doves life. Doing the things i could control at the moment.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Well as far as I understand with the conversation , there seems very less chances of bird seeing the vet, driving issues, appointments issues, money matters, friend busy schedule, wildlife rescue etc.everything is taking me to a helpless direction for bird. When we like to see birds we have them for our mental peace coz we love to see them but when they need our help desperately , why is everything stuck in between the help they need and situations are being worsen.she couldn't get even calcium in these two days of conversation. Somebody else is calling to vet on behalf of bird's owner to know the charges of vet.somebody else is trying to send medicines if these are on hand. Still this all help is not at all helping the bird.
She still doesnt seem to see a vet, i wonder if someone in family faces same situation whom we love, will we respond in the same way.I think we will not let him die like this to destiny and will try out of our best atleast what we can do. Look at the bird Ijoe and empathise, is she really that bird you kept and loved because you felt good with her? Then if our friends leave us in our critical situations, we shouldnt feel bad because this is what we do when our friends need us, she has must been your buddy but this time she really looks at you for help and you want to hand over her to somewhere when she needed you the most and she trust you for you being her with long time. She needs you and deserves your care , it is upto you now. 
You know the world is so strange but still we should not be like the world for atleast our beloved ones.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Ijoe said:


> Not sure if dr sanders will even have any have any available spots to see me. what if he's full? then what am i going to do on sunday when he's closed.


The doctor will establish if is a fracture or not. Btw, here is a manual teaching how to identify if a bone is broken (and how to imobilise it):
http://theiwrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Duerr_Splinting_Manual_2010.pdf

But the fracture is accompanied by swollen and tumefied tissues around it, which you didn't mention and that makes me think that is not fracture, but bone infection. If is not fracture, I'm 90% sure is bone infection. 



> I just feel helpless not being able to do anything. I sometimes think, maybe i should just euthanize the bird so it can stop suffering


Why complicate when is so simple to give that antibiotic? There is not any danger with this. It just need to be by injection, as has faster effect (passes directly in blood, not through the digestive system like oral antibiotic) and stronger.

The situation is not that desperate, bone infection advances slower than digestive or respiratory ones. But if is a fracture and gets infected, there is a high danger of sepsis, bacteria spreading and entering into blood, leading to rapid death. 


> I was wondering if you could give the list of the treatments, you recommend me andre.


Just one medicine: injectable antibiotic. Ideally Lincospectin, as is less toxic and more effective (no bacterial resistance). If not possible, injectable Baytril. If neither possible, oral Baytril. Also, after finishing (a session of) antibiotic treatment, give for several days probiotics. Probiotics are good to be given all the time in fact. 

During the treatment and afterward, give B medicines and if possible, hepatoprotective supplement, as well as calcium and D3 vitamin. Good (varied and nutritive) and enough food is also very important, as well as comfort: warmt (electric pad if possible), lack of air drafts (cardboard box), silence.

CBL can help you with advices how to get Lincospectin and other medicines, I hope she reads this thread.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Hey AndreiS, I am here. Let me go read. Kiddy contacted me. Thanks.

Ok found the info and site where I bought the linco....

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/contacts/index/


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you for answer CBL. Is expensive the product you bought? Does it takes long till reach the one who ordered? Is other possibility to get the bird medicated fastly? If somehow is a bone fracture, time is a great enemy.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

CBL said:


> Hey AndreiS, I am here. Let me go read. Kiddy contacted me. Thanks.
> 
> Ok found the info and site where I bought the linco....
> 
> http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/contacts/index/


Any idea where i can find this in the us? i searched for the linco but didn't find anything. Or if anybody on this site that has it? i'm willing to pay you with paypal.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

It was not too expensive but it was not a fast order. The fastest way is either pet store or vet appt. Sometimes if you can find a feed store, they have meds for chickens and turkeys and u can use them. I use Neox or Gallimycin or Tetracycline as well from feed stores. Farm supplies, google any in your are, OR call any local breeder of racing pigeons and ask to buy some off of them. Lots of them have meds on hand. Some will share if not offer them some money to sell u some.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not a great picture to see how the bird looks upright. This could be a simple splayed leg. Probably needs calcium and D3 plus wrapping.
Can you post a pic of how the bird looks upright?
You said you noticed this a month ago, so he would have been about a month old then. Is it possible that he had this going on sooner, and you didn't see it?
If that were the case, then this could more easily have been fixed a month ago, when you first noticed it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Ijoe...I'm relatively sure your dove is suffering from Metabolic Bone Disease .
I've seen it before.
Last year I received 23 baby pigeons of assorted ages that had hatched in an attic and several of them had rubbery legs, poor feather quality and failure to thrive. A splay leg can also be a symptom. All of the babies but one improved with calcium and vitamin d3.
Your baby needs calcium with vitamin d3. I use CalciBoost. There are instructions on the bottle for individual treatment which in this case would be the best. I'm sure you can find it at many places if you Google it.
The following is about a young dove with similar symptoms.
Best of luck.


http://www.voigt-web.co.uk/rescues/rescues-2015/rescues-march-2015/collared-dove-sissi.html


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

After reading some articles on MBD, I think Charis is right. Here is an article detailing about the causes of MBD. Lack of direct sun and calcium, also lack of some nutrients are the main causes:
http://www.wildliferehabber.com/rehab-data/metabolic-bone-disease


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Very likely could be the problem. Makes sense.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Not a great picture to see how the bird looks upright. This could be a simple splayed leg. Probably needs calcium and D3 plus wrapping.
> Can you post a pic of how the bird looks upright?
> You said you noticed this a month ago, so he would have been about a month old then. Is it possible that he had this going on sooner, and you didn't see it?
> If that were the case, then this could more easily have been fixed a month ago, when you first noticed it.


Is this better? I had the bird since it hatched. It hatched along with another one, that one came out fine no problems. I noticed that about month in, it start only being able to walk in one leg with the other one dragging. Then on thursday, i notice that it couldn't even walk on one leg anymore. Only crawl now with both of the legs like on that pic. It can still eat and drink on its own, only if i put the food and water right next to it. Also the bird poops on himself alot,and it's always trying to get on his feet.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Heres a close up his leg. the other one is very hard to get a picture of it, since it's hidden under his wing.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Heres another one. was very hard to take. that's where the leg thats hidden. it's in worser shape than other one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well you either have Metabolic Bone Disease or splay leg, or both. The disease could be causing the splay. He definitely needs the calcium with vitamin D3. Get him on that for a week, and then reevaluate. Are the legs rubbery and limp, or are they stiff? I use the CalciBoost also.
I buy it here
http://www.justbirdstuff.com/product.php?productid=16147&cat=290&page=1
The earlier this is fixed, the better. As they grow and the bones harden, it's harder to fix. The bird will then remain crippled for life, and that is very little quality of life for him. Can you get the calcium?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AndreiS said:


> .....During the treatment and afterward, give B medicines and if possible, hepatoprotective supplement, as well as calcium and D3 vitamin. .....


If you decide to give Baytril or Tetracylcines, grit needs to be pulled and any calcium supplementation needs to be off-set by about 4-5 hours so no 'in the water treatments'. 

Ijoe, not that I think this is a bone infection, giving the bird Calcium with D3 if an indoor bird would have been a good first step and was given to you as advice by several members starting with Andrei on day one.

Please don't make more difficult than it needs to be...get some human grade liquid Calcium with D3 (Don't tell me Whole Foods hasn't invaded San Jose yet?) or any health food store. If need be get the D3 as a separate supplement.

As Jaye mentioned, start there and re-evaluate after a week of supplementation. Keep the board posted of your dove's progress.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

feralpigeon said:


> If you decide to give Baytril or Tetracylcines, grit needs to be pulled and any calcium supplementation needs to be off-set by about 4-5 hours so no 'in the water treatments'.


I was knowing that calcium reduces Tetracyclines efficacy but not about quinolones (the antibiotic family of enrofloxacin / Baytril). Good to know!

Btw, giving a drop of C vitamin together with antibiotics, metronidazole and other categories of drugs increases the level of absorbtion of the drug several times (3-4 times in the case of Tetracyclines):

http://www.porumbei.ro/mic-ghid-de-...ctiile-adverse-ale-medicamentelor-de-sinteza/ (the page is in Romanian but you may get the idea)


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AndreiS said:


> Btw, giving a drop of C vitamin together with antibiotics, metronidazole and other categories of drugs increases the level of absorbtion of the drug several times (3-4 times in the case of Tetracyclines):
> 
> http://www.porumbei.ro/mic-ghid-de-...ctiile-adverse-ale-medicamentelor-de-sinteza/ (the page is in Romanian but you may get the idea)


Thanks, Andrei, likewise good to know...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would hold off on the antibiotics for now, and just give the calcium and vitamin D3.
Whether an indoor or outdoor bird, the calcium is a good first step. Even if an outside bird, that doesn't mean that he was actually out in the sun enough, and I believe it was mentioned that the parents hadn't received calcium, so being outside wouldn't have helped much.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Well you either have Metabolic Bone Disease or splay leg, or both. The disease could be causing the splay. He definitely needs the calcium with vitamin D3. Get him on that for a week, and then reevaluate. Are the legs rubbery and limp, or are they stiff? I use the CalciBoost also.
> I buy it here
> http://www.justbirdstuff.com/product.php?productid=16147&cat=290&page=1
> The earlier this is fixed, the better. As they grow and the bones harden, it's harder to fix. The bird will then remain crippled for life, and that is very little quality of life for him. Can you get the calcium?



it's legs feel rubbery, like my other birds. But feels weak. my other birds, feel hard and rubbery. I really wish i had knew about that website earlier, they offer 2 days shiping where i'm located for a very fair price. unfortunately, i have called and went to walmart,target,walgreens, and many pet stores. they don't carry the item. which i find very odd. I actually order some liquid calcium off ebay, couple of days ago. i should had got it by today, but since they don't deliver on saturday, and today is memorial day i might not get the item until thursday. Going to try some health stores, to see if i can find it. i don't understand, how the item is hard to find where i live. The only type of supplement, i have on me is wild harvest multi drops high potency vitamin supplement my neighbor lend me . Would this do anything beneficial? trying to Decide to put it on it's water or not.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Treating a bird in his water, you can't be sure how much they are getting. All depends on how much they drink. With the Calciboost, the vitamin D3 is included in the right amounts. Has to be given in the right dosage.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

In the mean time the bird is suffering. This is ridiculous


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If you have calcium solution, put the amount of substance that the bird must ingest in a small piece (or several pieces) of bread crumb and push this piece(s) inside the bird's throat. Before moisturing the bread with the med, roll it betwen fingers to become a small ball of a little harder consistence.

If you give calcium without D3, is of little use. Better buy from human drugstore some tablets (or solution) containing both calcium and D3 and give 50 mg calcium / day for 5 days, then pause a week and then again for 3-4 sessions or as long as necessary.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Really wish you would have an avian vet check out the poor lovely bird.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> I would hold off on the antibiotics for now, and just give the calcium and vitamin D3.
> Whether an indoor or outdoor bird, the calcium is a good first step. Even if an outside bird, that doesn't mean that he was actually out in the sun enough, and I believe it was mentioned that the parents hadn't received calcium, so being outside wouldn't have helped much.


This is the only treatment currently on the table as advice right now, to treat with calcium supplements for a at least a week and return here with an update on the bird's progress. If Charis is correct and there is overwhelming agreement that she is, then anti-biotics won't help.

Further, Ijoe, any wrapping or binding treatment to the leg should be done by a vet, this isn't a job for a novice, in my opinion, at least from what I've seen in this thread. Sooner or later, you need to bring the bird in to a doctor and really, the apt. should be set in advance and followed through on. Not an 'oh it's Sat. the only day I can do this and I don't know if the good dr. will see me today or not..I didn't call for an apt.'
Excuse the sarcasm, but really, what about the bird's problems?


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

I have been just told that my package has just arrived for the liquid calcium. It's wellesse liquid calcium. 1000 mg cal 
1000iu d3. on the box it says 500 iu 125 percent vitamin D. calcium 500 mg 50 percent.
phosphorus as calcium prosphate 95 mg.


Can anybody give me an idea on the best way to feed it to the bird. putting it on it's water or feeding it to it directly. How many drops, how much do i need?
thinking about doing it andre's way. Also, i'm trying my hardest to help the bird with the limited options i have. not everybody has a car.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Making the bread balls and soaking up the supplement with them is probably the easiest way. Try to make them the size of peas or around that. Hold the bird on your lap and against your body and open the beak. Put in a bread ball and push to the back of the throat and over the tongue. Then let him close his beak and swallow. Make the balls firm enough so that you can do that without it falling apart. Let us know how it goes.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Making the bread balls and soaking up the supplement with them is probably the easiest way. Try to make them the size of peas or around that. Hold the bird on your lap and against your body and open the beak. Put in a bread ball and push to the back of the throat and over the tongue. Then let him close his beak and swallow. Make the balls firm enough so that you can do that without it falling apart. Let us know how it goes.


How many bread balls do i feed it? and one drop would be enough right?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you weigh the bird? It would be 75 mg for each 1000 grams of body weight, so if he is say 120 grams, it would be about 10 mg daily.
Of course the amount of bread balls would be determined by how many it takes you to soak up enough supplement.

Thanks Charis, for picking up the typo. I corrected it.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Can you weigh the bird? It would be 75 mg for each gram of body weight, so if he is say 120 grams, it would be about 10 mg daily.
> Of course the amount of bread balls would be determined by how many it takes you to soak up enough supplement.


unfortunately, i have nothing on me that could weigh the bird. The bird is close to two months,about like a month and 2 weeks. and seems to be more thin than the other bird that hatched alongside it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Kitchen-Scale-Ounces-Capacity/dp/B00PUWXW7G

This is just a sample of the kind of scale you need to weigh the bird. Perhaps you know someone you can borrow one from. If not, they are very good to have on hand when you have birds and well worth the investment.

In Jay's post, there is a typo. It should read...
Can you weigh the bird? It would be 75 mg for each *kilogram*[1000grams] of body weight, so if he is say 120 grams, it would be about 10 mg daily.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Since i have no way to weigh the bird, can anybody here give me a suggestion on how much bread balls i should feed it? I asked my neighbor who seems to be more knowledgeable about me on stuff about birds * not saying alot* and he told me the bird seems to weigh like about half a pound. Not really sure if that's correct. I want to start treating the bird with the calcium, but i'm stuck on this issue.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ijoe said:


> Since i have no way to weigh the bird, can anybody here give me a suggestion on how much bread balls i should feed it? I asked my neighbor who seems to be more knowledgeable about me on stuff about birds * not saying alot* and he told me the bird seems to weigh like about half a pound. Not really sure if that's correct. I want to start treating the bird with the calcium, but i'm stuck on this issue.


It's not how many bread balls. I have mentioned that already. The supplement should probably be about 10 mg of the calcium. Figure out how much that is, and soak that amount up into the bread balls, however many that takes. Do this once a day for a week.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> It's not how many bread balls. I have mentioned that already. The supplement should probably be about 10 mg of the calcium. Figure out how much that is, and soak that amount up into the bread balls, however many that takes. Do this once a day for a week.


Sorry about my ignorance on this.I'm very new to this, so i apologize in advance for all the idiotic questions i'm going to ask. 
says on the back of the bottle this is the item. not sure if this website lets me posts links http://www.amazon.com/Wellesse-Calc...776449&sr=8-1&keywords=wellese+calcium+and+d3 one tablespoon is vitamin D 500 iu dv 125 percent calcium 500 mg dv 50 phosphorus as calcium 95 mg 9percent dv So if anybody can help me how many bread balls do i need? i can't seem to do the math, never did anything like this.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why do you keep asking how many bread balls? Are you not reading my answers? If you can get 10 mg into one ball, fine. if it takes 4 balls to soak up enough of the calcium, then that is fine.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You need to go to a drugstore or vet clinic and ask them to sell you a 1CC or 1ml syringe. Same thing. Get 1 cc or ml. Not 3 cc or ml. They may even give it to you. Then you would need to fill it to the 0.3 line on the syringe. then put that into the bread ball or two that you have made.
Does that help?


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> You need to go to a drugstore or vet clinic and ask them to sell you a 1CC or 1ml syringe. Same thing. Get 1 cc or ml. Not 3 cc or ml. They may even give it to you. Then you would need to fill it to the 0.3 line on the syringe. then put that into the bread ball or two that you have made.
> Does that help?


I just put some calcium in the calcium measuring cup, then dipped one bread ball on it then feed it to the bird. Hopefully i did it right. And yes that's what i originally meant. I wanted to know how do i measure how much cal i put on the bread ball. will try to get that syringe will make things way easier, thanks!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You really do need the syringe to measure the calcium. Giving not enough won't help, and giving a bird too much can be harmful. Can't just dip the balls in and give it to him. He will most likely get too much. Bad enough that we don't have a weight for him, so just a guess on that.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The bread balls must be small, 1 / 5 inch, in order the bird to be able to swallow them. Being that small means that the amount of calcium you have to give will not be absorbed by only one ball, you need more, as you have to not moisture the balls too much, in order to not make the liquid run out of them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think the size of a pea pretty well sums it up, don't you?
Yes, you don't want it dripping wet, so it'll take maybe a few balls.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Ijoe said:


> I have been just told that my package has just arrived for the liquid calcium. It's wellesse liquid calcium. 1000 mg cal
> 1000iu d3. on the box it says 500 iu 125 percent vitamin D. calcium 500 mg 50 percent.
> phosphorus as calcium prosphate 95 mg.
> 
> ...


I wonder if your country doesn't allow public transport or cab or taxi to carry a sick bird to a vet??? Only car owners can take the bird to treat for diseases!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They are not going to bring the bird to a vet. If they were, it would have happened by now. Harping on it isn't helping the bird. Maybe a bird is not important enough to them, or maybe they just cannot afford it. We don't know their situation.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> They are not going to bring the bird to a vet. If they were, it would have happened by now. Harping on it isn't helping the bird. Maybe a bird is not important enough to them, or maybe they just cannot afford it. We don't know their situation.


Agree with you Jay , it is not going to help the bird. Asked because in India actually all the public transports do not work as birds or animal carriage. I thought may be Ijoe isn't getting such public transport as he doesn't own a car so the bird is helpless in seeing a vet.
Also will calcium+D3 help the bird in normalising her legs automatically when the deficiency is gone or still the bird will need any expert to wrap her feet to bringing them in normal position and then these will be fine.in case an expert is required then what is the option? Like any public transport to vet? But as you said they won't be able to take the bird so she might remain disabled if she needs an expert.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

We won't know how much it will help as this has gone on for a while now. Would have been better a month ago when it was first noticed. The longer things are let to go on, the more difficult it is to treat. An expert is not always needed to wrap the legs if one can figure out how to bring them back into position without harming the bird. But then again, it's much easier to fix when it first comes up, before the legs grow and harden in the wrong position. Many on here have been able to do it. But all depends. Ignoring a problem for so long hasn't helped. It doesn't fix itself, and it only gets worse if left untreated. May need to be wrapped, but without harming him. Also harder when he is older and trying to get around. Too bad. If not able to fix then yes the bird will remain disabled. Not much quality of life there.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

This is the problem I am really worried about.disabled person or disabled bird, think of their quality of life, but Alas! People don't understand and so we all are helpless.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Everyone is different. Everyones priorities are different.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The situation has gone on for so long, a bird knowledgable vet as in avian or exotics should do the wrapping. 

As far as public transportation is concerned, a call to a vet's office would tell Ijoe if the office is on a public transportation route.

It's difficult to believe that should tbe dove remain disabled, the dove will get the requisite attention
required in the care of a disabled bird.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

I'm not even sure if birds are even allowed in public transportation :/


I'm gonna give it another week and if the bird doesn't show any improvement, i'm just gonna have to take it to bird rescue center as much as it kills me to do that  I just wished i had the money to be able to do it. When your in as much debt as i am,don't have many friends, and your family doesn't like you, it's very hard to get money.Also doesn't really help that i have bad credit so it's not like i could take a loan.

Just got the 1cc syringe and put some liquid cal up to the o.3 line, it seem like alot of calcium. Don't think i was giving it this much before i got the syringe today.

Also to jay or anybody that could help me with this question. Wouldn't it be easier, to feed the bird with the liquid calcium in the 1 CC 0.3 line on the syringe *one with no needle* directly to it's mouth instead of putting it on the bred crumb balls?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you give liquid to a bird by mouth, you take a chance of aspirating him. Getting liquid down the trach and into his lungs. You can kill him.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

How long have you been giving calcium without seeing improvement? If more than a week, I think is time to try the antibiotic injection.

In my case, the bird stopped having big pain and started standing on leg after th first injection. If you don't see improvement after the first series of three injections, I think is not bacterial infection. If you see improvement, continue until complete recovery.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Andrei, the bird wasn't even getting enough, so give it time. And not everyone should be giving injections. Birds can be medicated without injections.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> I'm not even sure if birds are even allowed in public transportation :/
> 
> 
> I'm gonna give it another week and if the bird doesn't show any improvement, i'm just gonna have to take it to bird rescue center as much as it kills me to do that  I just wished i had the money to be able to do it. When your in as much debt as i am,don't have many friends, and your family doesn't like you, it's very hard to get money.Also doesn't really help that i have bad credit so it's not like i could take a loan.
> ...


Ijoe, if you open the dove's mouth, you will see a 'hole' directly behind the tongue.....this is the much feared glottis which leads to air sacs/lungs of bird.
The trick in crop medicating is to use the side of the throat to guide the syringe past the glottis about an inch and then slowly release the calcium down the throat. If you hold the bird's head/beak toward the ceiling, you will have no issues gently guiding syringe deeper into the throat for release of medicine. Remember to release calcium slowly. (Wrapping the dove in a towel first to help with fidgeting is helpful).

Also, if you put the bird in a reasonably sized box for the bird's size in a transport situation, then put the box in a large grocery bag or the reusable cloth bags, no one will even know. Though I do know that folks bring their pets to Vets on public transportation.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not a great idea, as many that come on here have a hard time controlling the bird enough to feed it a pea. If bread balls are difficult, then giving liquids would be harder.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe, I also use my left hand to hold the head popping out of the 'bird burrito'
by coming from the back of the head and placing my thumb on one side of the 'hinging' portion of the beak/mandibles and my index/middle fingers on the other side with gentle pressure and upwards tilt of beak. With my right hand,
my index finger pushes upward at the very tip of the upper beak. As I am able to open the upper beak, I make sure that the left hand continues to apply gentle pressure at the hinging of the upper and lower beak so that the dove may not close the beak. Now you may look inside the bird's mouth and insert the syringe using the side of the mouth to guide the syringe to the back of the throat. Never force the syringe as it should, with a small amount of 'twirling' when advancing ease-in without force/pressure.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> How long have you been giving calcium without seeing improvement? If more than a week, I think is time to try the antibiotic injection.
> 
> In my case, the bird stopped having big pain and started standing on leg after th first injection. If you don't see improvement after the first series of three injections, I think is not bacterial infection. If you see improvement, continue until complete recovery.


I been giving it the calcium since last wednesday. But i don't think i was giving him enough until i got the syringe this monday. I put 0.3 on the syringe, and was surprised to how much it was. wasn't giving it that much before i got syringe. The only different think that i notice about the bird is that it moves it's legs alot, trying to get on his feet i think. Also @ feralpigeon thank you for the advice, But i think i'm gonna stick to the bread balls. That sounds very hard for a bird novice like myself.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could he not move them before?


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Could he not move them before?


It could, just didn't move it's legs that much. the legs still look messed up like in the picture i posted, can only still crawl.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

can the bird be put in its cage and given some sunshine on a back patio also? say for 10-15 min increments. I think you guys are on the right track with MBD and splay leg. Hoping bird improves.
Also I'd suggest taking a hand towel and making a circle with it and putting down some paper towels on top of that, to make a bowl shape for the dove to sit in. If he won't sit still in that, try just moving him on his side into that soft bowl, so that he is more comfortable.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

gingerpoo said:


> can the bird be put in its cage and given some sunshine on a back patio also? say for 10-15 min increments. I think you guys are on the right track with MBD and splay leg. Hoping bird improves.
> Also I'd suggest taking a hand towel and making a circle with it and putting down some paper towels on top of that, to make a bowl shape for the dove to sit in. If he won't sit still in that, try just moving him on his side into that soft bowl, so that he is more comfortable.


Very good suggestion. He should be put in something like that to support him better at least.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ijoe said:


> ...... Also @ feralpigeon thank you for the advice, But i think i'm gonna stick to the bread balls. That sounds very hard for a bird novice like myself.


I responded to your request for the information in this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=813000&postcount=81

You can try doing it with a dry syringe to see if in fact it is that difficult after all. The bird can fuss, but if you use the sidewalls to the back of the throat as guide, or get the syringe all the way into the crop, it doesn't matter, the calcium will end up in the same place. In fact if you see the syringe in the front of the bird and its movement corresponds to you moving the syringe, you will know you are in the crop propper. There is only a risk in aspiration if the bird is very very sick or the liquid is place in the front of the mouth or over the glottis. You would need to also be careful of drippage w/the food
balls as well.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Yes, ginger poo. i actually do that everyday. Thank you for your suggestion. i actually leave it in a shoe box on top of a shirt.It's been 6 days since i have been feeding the dove with the liquid calcium correctly. I have notice that leg that was really messed up seems to be moving almost as much as the other one now. Also it could open one off his wings more, but the other one still can't . The other wing can't spead, is like closed. that's how the bird wing looks, not sure why the pic came out like that. you have to look at the pic to the side to see it good. Not sure if i should had seen more improvement for 6 days.Or what to do next.


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## Ijoe (May 22, 2015)

Hello everybody, I got some semi good news. My neighbor actually took the bird to a bird rescue center. He was driving towards that way, and actually agreed to take and sign the bird off to them. i'm really sad, but at least now the bird can get the help it deserves. Thank you everybody that took the time to try to help me and the bird out. Now its with people that can.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Please let us know how he does at the rescue center.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Everyone is different. Everyones priorities are different.


Yes that's very true but sad when treating to lives differently and not caring for them. Strange world really!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some people have more to spend then others. And we don't know what their situation is. If it comes down to paying your rent or mortgage, or a car payment, or feeding your kids, or going to the vet, then some just don't have it. I think it's too bad that it costs so much to treat an animal.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Good luck. Bird looks pretty bad honestly. Fingers crossed for you


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hard to tell anything from such a big picture. Need to see the whole bird.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes if it is cheaper many more will be able to afford it but still I think it will more depend on our priorities. Many things are important and we do somehow manage to fulfil our needs with what we have in hand but we do first what is more important. If our own kid is unwell we may sell even our precious things to get him healthy, we may sell our property or any valuable good because that is our priority. 
I have seen a person living in van and helping his rescue with even limited Internet access here on pt . 
I have even seen a person whose friends didn't help to take her rescue to rehab and she used public transport for almost 3 hours journey alone with bird and finally that hard journey paid and the bird recovered and released and she was so happy. 

But I know we can't expect same thing from everyone as variety of people with different opinions and feelings . So I agree with what you try to make me understand but still sad about speechless and helpless bird.


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