# Blue check with brown?



## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

I have shown some of these pictures before, but I thought I would post the links again, in hopes of stirring up a bit more discussion. I see that Frank Mosca is posting on the site, so I thought he might add his opinion, along with the rest of you. Feel free to join in.

These pictures are of a blue checked bird, certainly, but he has a strange looking brownish cast to his flights that gives him a very strange appearance. Let me know what you think. Here are three links to different views. He is very difficult to get a good picture of because he is not very tame.

http://myviewmytake.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/p1010272.jpg?w=128&h=96
http://myviewmytake.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/p1010273.jpg?w=128&h=96
http://myviewmytake.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/p1010275.jpg?w=128&h=96


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Those pictures aren't very big. Is it possible to make them a bit bigger?
I've had several blue birds like this, with the slight red-ish brown in the flights.
I don't know what causes it though.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

*Bigger pictures*

Mary,

Here are the same pictures, only bigger, before resizing. They may be too big, not for sure.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, we can SEE those!!!!!!!!!


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> Well, we can SEE those!!!!!!!!!


 Sorry about that. They are a bit on the large side. Should I resize and upload them again?

I edited the post with the images to make them a bit smaller.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I don't think so. They're a bit big but that's ok. The guys that NEED to see them to evaluate what's going on with the color will have an easy time. I'd just leave them.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> I don't think so. They're a bit big but that's ok. The guys that NEED to see them to evaluate what's going on with the color will have an easy time. I'd just leave them.


To late, Renee. I downsized them just a little. It will make them easier to see without scrolling the page and they are still large enough to see good.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

That's better.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*What does the open wing look like?*

Might be a hint of bronze there, maybe kite which is one of the bronze colors. Kite usually shows up as reddish brown in the flight feathers and is more obvious when you spread the wings.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Test Breeding*

* This bird may be carrying INDIGO.Indigo can express it self very strong in some birds and very weak in others.The only way to realy know what this bird may be carrying is by test breeding it.I hope that Frank comes on I am sure he can tell you how to test breed this bird to find out what it is carrying.I will check in the books that I have to see the test breeding required.I am currently breeding an Indigo cock who has a weak expression of indigo, his mate shows a strong expression of the modifier (INDIGO) I bred these two birds in the hope of getting a homozygos indigo, which they gave me, in order to get a homozygous the baby MUST recieve the indigo gene from both parents.* ..GEORGE


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi all,

At first, I thought the bird might simply be showing sunbleaching, but then I saw the tail bar.

George, I don't really believe this bird is indigo, though I did briefly consider that. Without the bird in hand, I'd be more inclined to think that it's carrying ember (or a dose of recessive red). 

DynaBMan - do you happen to know the family lines for this bird? Ever since I've been involved with Oriental Roller and the buff/tuffy maybe ember part of them, I've begun to start to recognize it in other breeds as well. Is this what yours is? Don't know. It might also be a form of Dominant opal -- look at the tail bar as well. I'm going to send these pics to a few guys I know and see what they think.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

bluecheck said:


> Hi all,
> 
> At first, I thought the bird might simply be showing sunbleaching, but then I saw the tail bar.
> 
> ...


Frank,
Unfortunately, I do not know the family lines for *****. I believe he is a bird my father-in-law gave me when he was young and he escaped before he was settled into my loft. He showed back up earlier this year and acted as if he had been there all his life. If that is the case, then he would have some Jansen blood in him. Other than that, I do not know.

I do have a single baby out of him and a red-check hen that should be showing what color it will be in just a few days. Maybe it will be something unusual.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

*Pictures of the open wing*



jbangelfish said:


> Might be a hint of bronze there, maybe kite which is one of the bronze colors. Kite usually shows up as reddish brown in the flight feathers and is more obvious when you spread the wings.
> 
> Bill


Bill,

Here are a couple of pictures that show his wing opened. They are not the best in the world, but maybe you can see what you need.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*the bird is sun bleached*



DynaBMan said:


> Bill,
> 
> Here are a couple of pictures that show his wing opened. They are not the best in the world, but maybe you can see what you need.


You can see the parts of the feathers not exposed to the sun are darker, without the brownish tinge. Also new feathers coming in don't show it. No bronze or ember or anything else as far as I can see. T pattern blue or dark blue check.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jbangelfish said:


> You can see the parts of the feathers not exposed to the sun are darker, without the brownish tinge. Also new feathers coming in don't show it. No bronze or ember or anything else as far as I can see. T pattern blue or dark blue check.
> 
> Bill


 That bird is not sun bleached. If it was it would not turn the feathers a bronze color I wouldnt think. Plus looking I see no new primarys or secondarys coming in The easy tale on this would be to pull a flight primary or secondary and if it moult in clear or with color I expewct it has moulted in the same coloring before. HOW old is this bird Dyna man?


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

re lee said:


> That bird is not sun bleached. If it was it would not turn the feathers a bronze color I wouldnt think. Plus looking I see no new primarys or secondarys coming in The easy tale on this would be to pull a flight primary or secondary and if it moult in clear or with color I expewct it has moulted in the same coloring before. HOW old is this bird Dyna man?


I am not sure how old the bird is. I believe he is one of last year's birds, but I am not for sure. Some of my birds are already starting to moult, so ***** shouldn't be too far behind. Maybe we can tell more about him when that is done.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Look at the flight feathers*

I'm sure that it is sun bleached. You can see the darker shade where the sun does not hit the feathers. Also, there are some new feathers that don't show the brown color. Take a closer look at the extended wing pics.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jbangelfish said:


> I'm sure that it is sun bleached. You can see the darker shade where the sun does not hit the feathers. Also, there are some new feathers that don't show the brown color. Take a closer look at the extended wing pics.
> 
> Bill


I have looked close at the pictures. And remember this is the same bird Where a thread on the racing section was made. This is not from the sun. If it was then god how many more birds would look the same. And this color dacrk blue check really does not sun fade. NOW yellows reds even some blacks if gave alot of sun will fade BUt fade to a duller color. It could be evewn it has some black in its breeding where the black As you know can at time breed and show some bronzing in its wingThe feathers are edged towards bronzing Even indigo if you want to call it that. He can pull a feather and in 6 weeks we will know. But this bird has dropped its baby feathers and gone to adult feathers Remember how some young blacks will have the bronze ticking befor the moult then moult in good color depth of black This bird I beilve will show this color forever and perhaps depending on what it is paired to may reproduce it. could it even be masking opel its a guess not knowing the background colors it has masked


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

relee, totaly agree with you, i have birds with the same colouring, i have bred young from them and they came out with the same colour markings, so for sure not sun bleached 
will post pics later if needed from parents and young birds. as far as i know it's in the cross breeding of the birds,


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I think you need to look at them again*

You can plainly see a line of fading on several feathers that is not faded on the parts that don't show. There are also a few new wing feathers that do not have the faded parts. Why do you suppose some wing feathers have only a brown tinge on half or a third of them and others have none at all? There are also a few new feathers in the shield area that are darker and show no fade or brown or whatever you'd like to call it. 

I'm not saying that the bird has no other modifiers or colors behind it as it certainly could have but I am saying that it has faded from the sun or time or whatever you'd like to call it. The newest feathers have no brown.

This is partly why I wanted to see an open wing as it tells the story.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jbangelfish said:


> You can plainly see a line of fading on several feathers that is not faded on the parts that don't show. There are also a few new wing feathers that do not have the faded parts. Why do you suppose some wing feathers have only a brown tinge on half or a third of them and others have none at all? There are also a few new feathers in the shield area that are darker and show no fade or brown or whatever you'd like to call it.
> 
> I'm not saying that the bird has no other modifiers or colors behind it as it certainly could have but I am saying that it has faded from the sun or time or whatever you'd like to call it. The newest feathers have no brown.
> 
> ...


I have looked Several times. That just can not be sun faded. If it was sun faded You can see some of thew bronzing in the tail feathers also. And slight in the chest area. I have had hundreds of dark blue check race birds over the years. Never had one fade like this from the sun. But we can debate this to death . This winter after the moult I still say the color will be there. But I wont post on this subject any longer Its not progressive No one knows the base color back grounds A test would be put the bird back over its father. Then if lucky something might crop up more defined.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Robert*

Look at the first secondary flight feather. It is new and has no brown or bronze. This is visible in at least two photos or maybe all of them. I'm rather amazed that nobody is seeing the blue parts of the feathers that are not exposed to the sun as it is quite plain to see.

I think you're just stuck on the fact that T Pattern Blues don't fade from the sun. This one did whether from the sun or just age of the feathers.

As I said before, this bird may very well have modifiers in his genetics or be split for something that makes his feathers fade more than the typical blue.

Even so, all feathers fade to some degree and this is why we are able to see when the new ones come in. There is a better sheen if nothing else. 

I agree that we could argue this forever and it's pointless. When this bird finishes his moult, I'm very confident that he will not show any brown or bronze. We'll have to wait and see.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hey DynaB*

Take another open wing photo in a month or so and we should be able to see more new feathers like the few that it already has. This should show what I'm trying to say and clear this up.

The bird may very well have something that makes the feathers fade but I remain convinced that this is what is going on.

Bill


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Well, I certainly didn't mean to stir up such a controversy. I will make sure I take some pictures after ***** has moulted out and we can compare them then.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*don't worry about it*

Just a couple of stubborn old pigeon people seeing a couple of things differently. I'm not angry with anyone and I hope no one is angry with me. These are just our honest opinions.

Bill


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

if you say the sun bleeched he feathers, how come the birds i have hardly see the sun as they are stock birds,the young i got of them have the brown in the feathers before they even saw the sun, maybe the sun can bleech the feathers,but we are over looking the purpose of this thread, The brown in the feathers will always be there no matter about the sun or not, It is in their makeup,


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jbangelfish said:


> Look at the first secondary flight feather. It is new and has no brown or bronze. This is visible in at least two photos or maybe all of them. I'm rather amazed that nobody is seeing the blue parts of the feathers that are not exposed to the sun as it is quite plain to see.
> 
> I think you're just stuck on the fact that T Pattern Blues don't fade from the sun. This one did whether from the sun or just age of the feathers.
> 
> ...


Look back over the first thread on this bird It is on the raceing pigeon section. You I and several others posted thoughts there Even a web link to a genetic sit is posted. On that site The blue/black spread bird shows the bronzing In its wings. and this bird is a dark blue check Not what I would really call a black check.. Perhaps even the bird has self black in its background. And carries the brown gene. Or has ressesive red As A friend has a darck check muelman cock that show the same bronzing it its wing I know muelmans carry red and yellow also. Plus the other pictures Of jojos bird it shows the bronzing. Sure there are sones unmarked feathers and several light marked. What I noticed was the color the bronzing forms more as an edge marking on several feathers. Giving an unclean black spread lets say. I am not upset I just think we are missing the makeup of this bird. Kite can even effect the bird. BUT I am starting to think we have a bird say it has a blackdiamong background. Might even ask Do we have an idea of its blood line If you ever had blacks You find from time to time you get the bronze markings in unclean color. Just as ressesive reds show the blueing in flights and tail that also whon the blueing shows the red color depth is not as deep/good chesnut color. Same happens in yellows. Good black goes say from smokey to nice beetle shean glossy almost black. As we close the T pattern of the bird it produce more black someday it goes self fades away the blue 
and Just as the BAR on a self bird is still really there IF held to a good light The bar is masked to the set self color. I had this showed to me over thirty years ago Never noticed the trace bar line until it was brought to my attention. We have learned to mask other colors to bring other colors over about all breed of pigeons We have learned what to modify colors with. Some breeds have longer exsisting color makeups. While others do not. Most every breed has the desired colors Now where color times quality comes to the surface. Color without quality is either project birds or something to look at
Color with quality wins shows. Now color in race birds it gives looks and does not mean it wins. Any color wins If quality is there. Same with performers color looks good but if say the bird rolls to deep guess it may jusy crash. rolls not enough it is not a breeder bird or a needed bird so breeding balance comes into play. Then we find the real truth COLOR is only that Look to long at just the color we lost the gopal. QUAlLITY. Where any bird no matter the color if it holds the needed tools to go farward to advance quality can be used over an exsisting color to iprove the quality. Then bring back that color to the desired standard of reconizetion And we have improved for both color and quality. BUT yes this is a debated bird That I cannt say for sure where this broze comes in from. I still think its not sun fade. BUT The old saying I could be wrong gets used here Tmie will only tell.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Aren't we talking about DynaB's bird?*



jojo67 said:


> if you say the sun bleeched he feathers, how come the birds i have hardly see the sun as they are stock birds,the young i got of them have the brown in the feathers before they even saw the sun, maybe the sun can bleech the feathers,but we are over looking the purpose of this thread, The brown in the feathers will always be there no matter about the sun or not, It is in their makeup,


What does that have to do with your birds? I have birds with brown and bronze and many other colors but I'm not looking at them, I'm looking at DynaBman's bird. It has faded from time or the sun or whatever you'd like to call it in my honest opinion. The old feathers are the only ones to show brown and the brown is in the area of the feather that is exposed to weather and the sun, which is most likely fading. The new feathers are all blue. Simple as that.

We can look at your birds and perhaps find a completely different story.

I just visited a friend's loft over the weekend and saw something that I have absolutely no explanation for. He has a young roller that most of us would say was kite. If you open the wing, it is loaded with bronze and this is in the parts of the feathers that don't see sun or weather. The weird part is that the bird is going through it's first moult and all of the new flights have no bronze at all. I'd love to know what's going on there.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

DynaBMan said:


> I do have a single baby out of him and a red-check hen that should be showing what color it will be in just a few days. Maybe it will be something unusual.


 Hi DynaBMan,What color is the baby? If it is red then it will be a cock bird,and it will carry a second color. Now if the father is carring brown he could pass this to the baby,and if that is the case we will know that ***** IS CARRING BROWN. However he could pass the blue color and that will still leave us in the dark.It is to early to realy see if the baby is carring brown.Now if the baby is brown we will know its a hen, and there for ***** is carring brown as a second color. ...GEORGE


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

*pics of birds*

Here is pics of my birds with the bronze colouring, the first is a young bird and the second is a cock stock bird , as yu can see the feathers are bronze or brown, it had them before it even seen the sun, the flight feathers i can say don't have the bronze on them, I just thought somewhere along the line there was a brown or red bird mix in, I have two stock birds like this, I see in dyna pics the flight feathers are brown also, so maybe they are sun bleeched, i would be looking forward when it moults to see if there is a difference,


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi jojo*



jojo67 said:


> Here is pics of my birds with the bronze colouring, the first is a young bird and the second is a cock stock bird , as yu can see the feathers are bronze or brown, it had them before it even seen the sun, the flight feathers i can say don't have the bronze on them, I just thought somewhere along the line there was a brown or red bird mix in, I have two stock birds like this, I see in dyna pics the flight feathers are brown also, so maybe they are sun bleeched, i would be looking forward when it moults to see if there is a difference,



Your bird appears different to me and this is clearly a form of bronze. It does not appear faded in any way, even though the feathers are only partially covered with bronze, there is still dark color (black and blue) that shows on a closed wing. Does this make sense to you? It is quite different from DynaB's bird and yet has some similarities. Many forms of bronze, opal, indigo and recessive red can bring these things out in birds. With Homers, I'd think of indigo,opal, bronze, and recessive red in that order.

DynaB's bird is actually quite a different story and if you look at the closed wing vs open wing photos, you should see what I mean. With your bird, either wing shot looks the same except that the black or blue area becomes larger or more obvious on the open wing. What I mean to say is that the brownish tinge (which in the case of your bird is quite a bit darker) does not cover all of the blue or black even on a closed wing. 

Try to bear with me and take a look to see if you can see what I mean. Thanks for the pic.

Bill


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

*Hi Bill*

Hi bill, I think i see what you mean, My birds bronze is darker, and on dynaB bird the wing open i can see the ine of the marking of bronze, i can also see the new primary feather with no bronze, it does look like the feathers that are exposed to the sun on the closed wing look faded, the marking on the flight feathers look uniform, i don't think you would get this if it was natural, so i am swayed to your opinion, would still like to see this bird when it moults to see difference, I am inexperianced when it comes to genetics, but found this interesting as my birds seem to have the same unusual bronze markings, it's odd how the young birds turn out from their parents,
I got four young birds of two white grizzles, one was a mealy another a check, one white grizzle, and a barred grey grizzle, I was just told you get this as a throw back, but interesting to know how ,


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I was hoping you might*



jojo67 said:


> Hi bill, I think i see what you mean, My birds bronze is darker, and on dynaB bird the wing open i can see the ine of the marking of bronze, i can also see the new primary feather with no bronze, it does look like the feathers that are exposed to the sun on the closed wing look faded, the marking on the flight feathers look uniform, i don't think you would get this if it was natural, so i am swayed to your opinion, would still like to see this bird when it moults to see difference, I am inexperianced when it comes to genetics, but found this interesting as my birds seem to have the same unusual bronze markings, it's odd how the young birds turn out from their parents,
> I got four young birds of two white grizzles, one was a mealy another a check, one white grizzle, and a barred grey grizzle, I was just told you get this as a throw back, but interesting to know how ,



There are certainly differences between these two birds. I don't know why DynaB's bird has the fading but it is probably due to some other modifier as blue is a strong color that doesn't fade as much as some. Still, all feathers fade over time, just not as much as his bird and they don't always turn brown as his did. Probably the most likely is that his bird is split for brown but I don't really know.

As to your grizzles. Are your birds free to be with other birds or are they penned in individual pairs? Pigeons will stray from their mates at a rate of 15% to 20% or so. This accounts for many mysteries in the young birds.

Most white pigeons are actually ash red grizzles that have been bred together for so much that they became all white. Not all white pigeons but most. It would be possible for them to have many other factors in their background such as dilute or blue or brown or a host of other factors.

It may be possible that if the cock were carrying blue that you could get the offspring that you describe. I'm not positive on this one. I believe in this case that the young blue would have to be a hen, again not positive. George or Frank probably know the answer to this one. Normally, pure white pigeons have pure white young. This (a blue youngster) should come from the cock bird and not the hen and you could test mate him to a blue or black bird to find out. 

It would also be possible that the hen is recessive white but is much less likely, I would think. In this case, she could be masking another color, such as blue, I think. Still not positive but this is a rarer gene.

How's that for a bunch of speculation. Maybe Frank or George can bail me out.

Bill


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

Hi bill, the birds where paired up in nestboxes, so am 100% these young are theirs, but as you said the cock bird would carry the blue gene, i was told by the fancier i got the bird of it's father was a mealey bird, so the blue could have come from the hen, I know the white grizzle young bird comes directly from them, so that just leaves the grey bar grizzle, which probably comes from the hens line, of which i don't know as i got a lend of her, and he fancier got her from belgium breeder, maybe find out later from him, 
I was just surprise at this grizzle pair as all the other birds came out just like the parents, blacks and blues, 
sorry dyna for taking up your thread space, was just curious at the simularitys of our two birds, look forward to seeing pics later.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*jojo*



jojo67 said:


> Hi bill, the birds where paired up in nestboxes, so am 100% these young are theirs, but as you said the cock bird would carry the blue gene, i was told by the fancier i got the bird of it's father was a mealey bird, so the blue could have come from the hen, I know the white grizzle young bird comes directly from them, so that just leaves the grey bar grizzle, which probably comes from the hens line, of which i don't know as i got a lend of her, and he fancier got her from belgium breeder, maybe find out later from him,
> I was just surprise at this grizzle pair as all the other birds came out just like the parents, blacks and blues,
> sorry dyna for taking up your thread space, was just curious at the simularitys of our two birds, look forward to seeing pics later.


I'm not exactly certain what you are telling me.

An ash red (mealy) cock bird can carry blue but a blue bird cannot carry ash red.

If the cock is pure mealy then all of the young will be mealies as well.

If the hen has blue in her background, it won't matter unless she is genetically blue. Even then the cock bird would have to carry blue to see any blue youngsters.

If you post photos of the parents and the young, it might be alot easier to sort out.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Dyna Man Did you raise this bird. If so after it moulted out last fall did it show the bronzing in its wings.? If so this will end the faded debate. As if it showed the bronzing during and after the fall moult No way it could be faded. But So can you let us know how long you have seen this color on this bird.


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