# young pigeons (fledglings?)



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Hello, we have two Young pigeons here that I am caring for and was hoping I could get some advice here.
One fell out of the nest last Saturday, one fell out yesterday, both from the same nest. The second one seems a bit older, could be a fledgling that meant to leave the nest, but I am too inexperienced to accurately Judge that and Living in an area full of cats I thought I'd take him in too. The first one (called Chickpea) is fed out of a beaker with a rubber glove with a hole in it, it adapted to that quite quickly and has been to the vets, who told me to use Baby Food for feeding and told me that ist leg that was broken has healed together well and now just needs recovery time. The second one refused the Syringe method and beaker method last night, took a Little bit from the beaker method this morning but still not much. I kept them seperate last night, but have put them together this morning (in the cat-carrier box chickpea has been Living in) and they seem perfectly calm sat next to each other. Can I leave them together like that? should I move them both to the larger Cage outside? Any hints for feeding?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

It will be better to keep them together inside the house in a cage. Both can be fed defrosted peas. You can get a bag of frozen peas from the supermarket, defrost in lukewarm water and feed them about 30 peas 3 times daily.

To do this you will have to put each one on your lap, facing to the right if you are righthanded. Reach with your lefthand over the body and head and open the beak with those fingers. Have a pea ready in your righthand and put deep inside the mouth over the tongue. Give him time to swallow and then continue with the next pea. If he spits out the pea, you are not putting it deep enough inside the mouth. You will struggle in the beginning, but it will become easier. They quickly learn to eat the peas by themselves, so always leave a small bowl filled with peas with them.

To get them to drink water, you can dip the tip of the beak (not over the nostrils) in a small bowl of water. Once they are eating the peas by themselves, you can start adding small seeds to that. Keep them inside the house for another month or so, then put the cage outside. They will need to get used to their surroundings before release. Keep them outside for another couple of weeks, and then you can just open the cage and let them go out by themselves. You will need to supply a backup food source, cause they might return when hungry. Only release them when they are able to eat all kinds of seeds, and able to fly well.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Marina B said:


> It will be better to keep them together inside the house in a cage. Both can be fed defrosted peas. You can get a bag of frozen peas from the supermarket, defrost in lukewarm water and feed them about 30 peas 3 times daily.
> 
> To do this you will have to put each one on your lap, facing to the right if you are righthanded. Reach with your lefthand over the body and head and open the beak with those fingers. Have a pea ready in your righthand and put deep inside the mouth over the tongue. Give him time to swallow and then continue with the next pea. If he spits out the pea, you are not putting it deep enough inside the mouth. You will struggle in the beginning, but it will become easier. They quickly learn to eat the peas by themselves, so always leave a small bowl filled with peas with them.
> 
> To get them to drink water, you can dip the tip of the beak (not over the nostrils) in a small bowl of water. Once they are eating the peas by themselves, you can start adding small seeds to that. Keep them inside the house for another month or so, then put the cage outside. They will need to get used to their surroundings before release. Keep them outside for another couple of weeks, and then you can just open the cage and let them go out by themselves. You will need to supply a backup food source, cause they might return when hungry. Only release them when they are able to eat all kinds of seeds, and able to fly well.


Thanks much for the Reply, but is there anything wrong with the bottle method? the vet said to give chickpea Baby food through a Syringe or bottle and to start giving her seeds this week some Point... The other one (sweetpea) has also accepted the bottle method after seeing chickpea eat that way and I let them peck at some seeds after feeding with the bottle, which they do seem to be Eating. Is it at all possible to let them learn to eat the seeds (/defrosted Peas, will buy some later) without "forcefeeding"? Sofar I was thinking that I would start gradually giving them less from the bottle and more seeds, really dont want to accidentally hurt them by Holding them too tight when they struggle :x
Will certainly try to use this method, just in case I chicken out in fear of hurting them, could I give them chopped bits of Peas to peck at by themselves (assuming they dont peck at the whole Peas by themselves)?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If the syringe feeding method is working for both of them, stick to it rather. Sometimes, especially if they are older than 2 1/2 weeks, then they refuse the syringe method and then the best option will be to forcefeed peas. You can also start adding small seeds to the food you are syringe feeding and always leave some seeds with them. Leave seeds of all shapes and sizes. They will eventually start pecking at the seeds by themselves, so no need to force seeds into them. When eating seeds, they will also need to start drinking water.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Marina B said:


> If the syringe feeding method is working for both of them, stick to it rather. Sometimes, especially if they are older than 2 1/2 weeks, then they refuse the syringe method and then the best option will be to forcefeed peas. You can also start adding small seeds to the food you are syringe feeding and always leave some seeds with them. Leave seeds of all shapes and sizes. They will eventually start pecking at the seeds by themselves, so no need to force seeds into them. When eating seeds, they will also need to start drinking water.


Just to clarify: The Syringe method isnt working, neither will accept that. Instead I have been using a bottle method I saw on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_U1YodwvCc
Only difference being the Food, which is a Kind of Baby Food with a similar texture to the Food in the Video... Both accept this method, neither accepted the Syringe method.
Is this an acceptable alternative?
I have added a small bowl of small seeds used to feed budgies, is that ok or should I add other seeds/Peas to the mix as well?

Thank you very much for your replies sofar, hope I'm not annoying you, just trying to make sure I am doing this Right :x

Also: A guy I met while taking chickpea to the vet suggested sweet corn, was considering adding some of that to their Food, is that a good idea or will that do more harm than good?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That method is perfect for feeding. The best food to give them, is actually a handrearing formula for parakeets and parrots, called Kaytee Exact which you will be able to buy from large petshops. Don't know where you are located, you might not be able to get hold of this. You can actually blend up the peas that I suggested, and just feed this to them with the bottle feeding method. They are not so young anymore, will soon start eating by themselves. Try to get hold of a seed mixture for doves (that have sorghum - small reddish seed), the babies that I've raised always start eating them first.

Questions are always welcome, that's why we are here!


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

thank you very much for the pea Suggestion, they love them! Took chickpea About ten minutes of pecking at a handful until she finally got one properly, but after that they both went nuts over them and dont seem to be able to get enough of em ^^
They now have a small bowl with water and a small bowl of Peas in their Cage (got a new Cage from some Friends today, three times the size of the carrier box per Floor with three Floors, have only built one up sofar as they dont move around very much atm anyway).

I am thinking I will add sweetcorn and some seeds to the mix as of tomorrow to give them some Variation.

My next Question: what is the bst way to clean them? The bottle method was Pretty messy, they still have some slightly matted feathers in places as I couldn't get them cleaned properly with Damp towels… Their feet are also quite dirty as they stepped in their poop in the small Cage due to limited space… Can I just give them a bath in bowl of warm water or is there something else I can do?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can take a damp cloth and start wetting those dried up pieces of food. It will eventually loosen up. This depends on how tame they are, you don't want to grab them and it all ends up in a struggle to clean them. Otherwise, if the weather is hot you can put down a large dish with water about 5 cm deep and they might take a bath themselves. You can encourage them to bath by playing with your fingers in the water.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

*I may have spoken too soon*

This morning when I got them out for breakfast, neither of them ate very many Peas at all but instead seemed to want the budgie seeds more… And as I was getting them out for lunch, chickpea didn't come running to my Hand the way she usually does but instead seemed to be acting defensively (raised wing on the side my Hand was coming from and pecked at it), which has never happened before.
Sweetpea (the bigger one) was also more skittish than usual and made it a Task to get him out of the Cage, constantly Jumping off my Hand whenever I picked him up… 

Can anyone tell me why that might be? They have been doing so well and just last night enjoyed sitting on my lap together so much they nearlly fell asleep there… I'm worried, it seems to me like sweetpea is having a "bad" influence on chickpea, is that possible? 

One more Thing that might be relevant: I accidentally left my Computer running over night (in the same room)… Could that have anything to do with it due to noise?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Are you planning on releasing them one day? Then it will be better if they remain skittish around people and not try to tame them. They are eating on their own now, so it's possible they don't associate your hands with feeding anymore. They were fairly old when you got them, so the chances of them really become tame are very slim. Unless you put a lot of effort into it. They also learn from each other, so if the older one starts acting defensive, then the younger one probably also will.

If you are planning on keeping them, spend as much time as possible with them. They like to be scratched around the head, and will calm down a bit when you do that. When they start eating properly, you can offer chopped up unsalted raw peanuts from your hand. Pigeons love them. But you first have to sprinkle some on their food so that they will develop a taste for them.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

toby tatlow said:


> This morning when I got them out for breakfast, neither of them ate very many Peas at all but instead seemed to want the budgie seeds more… And as I was getting them out for lunch, chickpea didn't come running to my Hand the way she usually does but instead seemed to be acting defensively (raised wing on the side my Hand was coming from and pecked at it), which has never happened before.
> Sweetpea (the bigger one) was also more skittish than usual and made it a Task to get him out of the Cage, constantly Jumping off my Hand whenever I picked him up…
> 
> Can anyone tell me why that might be? They have been doing so well and just last night enjoyed sitting on my lap together so much they nearlly fell asleep there… I'm worried, it seems to me like sweetpea is having a "bad" influence on chickpea, is that possible?
> ...


I was planning on sort of keeping them, am currently working on a design to make our balcony predator proof so that they can come and go as they like but will Always return… Is that likely to work? 
I spend most of the day in the room their Cage is in and have been feeding them four times daily with About an hour or so of letting them sit in my lap and me stroking them behind their heads, which they seem to enjoy as far as I can tell (they lie down when I do this, usually cuddled to each other and up against my stomach, sometimes even close their eyes, especially chickpea).
Just gave feeding them another go, took one and a half Hours but at least sweetpea ate About 20-30, chickpea had less and wouldnt stop cuddling up to me. She pooped three times this time (as opposed to the usual two times, once during feeding and once when i put her back in the Cage), all three droppings being watery and with Little fecal matter, with one she seemed to struggle a bit… 
Anything else I can try feeding them/should I go back to the bottle method (for Chickpea at least)? Havent been able to reach a pet supply store yet as I dont own a car and the nearest one is About two Hours away by bike, don't want to leave them alone for over four Hours... 
Thanks so much for your help sofar, really appreciate it <3


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Also: they both stretch their wings rather often and Groom/Scratch themselves with their feet and beaks, which chickpea only started doing yesterday… Could this be a sign that sweetpea brought parasites with him? Chickpea was parasite-free when the vet checked her last week and Sweetpea only "moved in" with Chickpea on Sunday... Should I take them both to the vet again or is that normal behaviour? Can post pics/vids if that helps 
And should I add a hot water bottle to the Cage? It's currently around About 20-30°C in the room, today its Closer to 20, is that too Cold for them?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

So they are eating the green frozen peas that you have defrosted in warm water and you are offering it to them whole and not chopped up? Whole is better, easier to pick up. Their droppings should then be mushy and darkgreen. If they are drinking water as well, that might explain the watery droppings. But there should be plenty of fecal matter. If you think they are not eating enough peas, then continue with the bottle feeding.

It will be fairly easy to predator proof your balcony, the ideal spot to keep them. Just fasten a wooden frame to the cement part around the whole opening of the balcony, and add to that aviary mesh. If you do let them out, there's always a chance they won't return. If the balcony is large enough, they can live a good life there. You will just need to put up enough perches etc.

It's normal for young pigeon to groom themselves, does not mean they have parasites. They will shed whitish stuff (I think it's called flax) from their feathers as they groom, that's all normal.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can put the hotwaterbottle in there, just make sure there's enough room for them to move away if they are too warm.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Perfect, you've really put my mind at ease with that, thank you so much <3


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Marina B said:


> Are you planning on releasing them one day? Then it will be better if they remain skittish around people and not try to tame them. They are eating on their own now, so it's possible they don't associate your hands with feeding anymore. They were fairly old when you got them, so the chances of them really become tame are very slim. Unless you put a lot of effort into it. They also learn from each other, so if the older one starts acting defensive, then the younger one probably also will.
> 
> If you are planning on keeping them, spend as much time as possible with them. They like to be scratched around the head, and will calm down a bit when you do that. When they start eating properly, you can offer chopped up unsalted raw peanuts from your hand. Pigeons love them. But you first have to sprinkle some on their food so that they will develop a taste for them.


"raw unsalted Peanuts": my local Supermarket only has roasted unsalted Peanuts, are those ok too? They are back to Eating Peas and seeds, I just have to offer them both. The new Cage is quite spacious, could they use some sort of Entertainment in there? If so, what could I give them?

Also: when I stroke them after feeding they tend to nibble gently at my fingers sometimes but then refuse the seeds/Peas/water if i continue to offer them… Are they Looking for something else to eat or could that be a sign of affection?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm not sure about the roasted peanuts. Maybe you should look elsewhere, a petshop or maybe a hardware store that sells chickenfeed and birdfood.

Nibbling at the fingers is a sign of affection, they would do that to their parents. And the parents would groom them as well, just as you are doing. I've got one now, about 2 1/2 weeks old. I offer him the peas from my fingertips and he will take the first lot from my fingers and then start eating from the bowl. Maybe you can try that as well.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Marina B said:


> I'm not sure about the roasted peanuts. Maybe you should look elsewhere, a petshop or maybe a hardware store that sells chickenfeed and birdfood.
> 
> Nibbling at the fingers is a sign of affection, they would do that to their parents. And the parents would groom them as well, just as you are doing. I've got one now, about 2 1/2 weeks old. I offer him the peas from my fingertips and he will take the first lot from my fingers and then start eating from the bowl. Maybe you can try that as well.


ok thanks, will Keep Looking then ^^

nice, good to know 

I've also been wondering if they would appreciate some sort of Entertainment like some sort of games/toys or whatever… any suggestions? Or are pigeons not the playful type?^^'
I don't mind either way, I love just cuddling with them but if there's something they might enjoy I would like to try it 

Also (again, sorry About all the individual Questions): Would it be ok to listen to Music/watch movies etc. with them in the room?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes, you can watch movies and listen to music, just maybe not too loud. They won't play with toys etc like other birds do, they've got each other for company. Maybe you can post a photo of their cage, then we can give advice if necessary. 

If they start eating seeds only, you will need to get them grit. This helps with digestion and also have minerals which they will need. If they won't be exposed to direct sunlight (through a window won't help) you will also need to give them calcium with added Vit D3 in the drinking water. All of this you will get from a petshop. They will also appreciate some greenery like chopped up spinach.

Questions are always welcome.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

here is their Cage, i replace the paper towels (double layer) every time I feed them and there is a duvet cover underneath to make the Ground softer, the Food bowl is in the dishwasher (got pooped in)


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Looking good. You can cover the one half of the cage with a towel, this will make them feel safer and more secure. You can always line the bottom with a couple of layers of newspaper and just remove the dirty top layer every morning. Provide them with a soft fleezy blanket fold up to form a "nest". Pigeons like to perch on something. You can put a brick in the corner that you've covered. Then they have a choice where they want to sleep, either the blanket or the brick.

Otherwise, they are looking good.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Putting a shelf that runs from front to back on one end of the cage would be great. They like a shelf. You can make one with a 6 or 8 inch wide board to give then enough room. Connect it on about 4 or 5 inches up from the bottom of the cage, or even place a brick front and back of cage and balance the board on those.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

thanks guys, will see About finding two bricks and some Wood for them 
But can they get up there if its 5in high or could/should I give them a ramp to walk up? Especially for Chickpea it sounds like quite the challenge as her right leg is still recovering from when it was broken from falling out of the nest and she still has a bit of a limp, although it has already gotten much better and she has regained her grip Reflex.

The Fleece blanket: should it be a whole blanket (170x135cm) folded up or should I cut it up a bit and then fold it? And should I put it under or over the paper towels/newspapers? 

You're the best, dont know what I'd do without you (other than probs be calling around the vets/animal protection Services and annoying them on a daily Basis with These Questions) ^^' <3


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

*small black droppings*

When I went to feed them this morning, I found About Five small black droppings (About pea-sized) in the Cage. They were very dark, somewhat slimey and surrounded by large green wet Patches and came from Sweetpea (he pooped just before I got him out, hence I know it was him).

He didn't eat very much last night and this morning he had only very Little, refused to eat anymore and also wont touch the Food in the bowl. He also doesnt lie down much like chickpea does but instead seems to prefer Standing around. Chickpea cheeps more or less the entire time when I feed/cuddle her (gets quieter when being groomed but still cheeps now and then) but Sweetpea is Always very quiet and rarely cheeps, when he does it is usually quieter than the sounds Chickpea makes. I am very worried that something may be up with him, am going to go the pet supply store soon to get the stuff you recommended, is there anything else I should be getting for him? He pooped twice more during breakfast, both times slightly larger than the black ones but still very dark green, the liquid being clear and slightly gelatinous. Could this be harmless or should I take him to a vet ASAP?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can keep the blanket whole, if it fills up too much space in the cage then you can cut it in half. Also put it on top of the newspaper. They will use their wings to get up onto the shelve, also a bit of excercise for them.

In the second photo there's 2 kinds of droppings. On the right some brown ones and to the left the small greenish droppings. If the greenish droppings belong to Chickpea, then he is not getting enough food. Are you still feeding him with the bottle method?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Sorry, I meant Sweetpea. He is the older one?


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Yup, sweetpea is the older one ^^
Haven't been bottle feeding since they started Eating Peas/seeds, will go back to bottle feeding Sweetpea though as he is still not Eating much… I would put the Food in his beak like you suggested but he squirms and struggles too much if I try to get him to open his beak.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Feed him the way you used to. Sometimes they peck at seed and one might think they are eating, but they only scatter the seed around and not swallowing it. If he is really losing his appetite, then something must be wrong. How is his behaviour otherwise? Sitting fluffed up and looking sick?


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Well, he quickly accepted the bottle method again and after a few tries he took a fairly large amount very quickly, and you're Right after About the "thinking they're Eating but not really..." ^^
But he is sitting rather fluffed up in the darkened half and does usually cheep quietly if at all, although he can get quite loudly at feeding time... Idk, what do you think?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

toby tatlow said:


> thanks guys, will see About finding two bricks and some Wood for them
> But can they get up there if its 5in high or could/should I give them a ramp to walk up? Especially for Chickpea it sounds like quite the challenge as her right leg is still recovering from when it was broken from falling out of the nest and she still has a bit of a limp, although it has already gotten much better and she has regained her grip Reflex.
> 
> I would put in a shelf and a brick which would be lower until he is ready to get up there.
> ...


......................................................


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

As long as he is eager to eat like he used to from the bottle, then he is ok. You can check his droppings tomorrow again, hopefully some nice brown droppings.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

toby tatlow said:


> Well, he quickly accepted the bottle method again and after a few tries he took a fairly large amount very quickly, and you're Right after About the "thinking they're Eating but not really..." ^^
> But he is sitting rather fluffed up in the darkened half and does usually cheep quietly if at all, although he can get quite loudly at feeding time... Idk, what do you think?


Can you check way down his throat with a flashlight and see if there is anything down there that may look kind of cheesy? Any yellowish substance?
He may well have canker from the stress of everything. It's pretty common.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Is there some Kind of trick to get their beaks open? feels like im doing something wrong, he squirms and struggles too much :/


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Are you trying to feed him the peas? You will have to put him on your lap facing to the right (if you are righthanded). Then reach with your left hand over his body and head and open the beak with those fingers. Have a pea ready in your righthand and put deep inside the mouth over the tongue. If he spits it out, then you are not putting it in deep enough. You can also cover him with a lightweight cloth and only let the beak stick out.

Rather bottle feed him like you used to, the above method is just going to make him scared of you. Although they quickly learn to pick up the peas by themselves. If he was eating by himself like you said, why did he now stop?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Marina B said:


> *Are you trying to feed him the peas? *
> 
> Marina, I had asked her to look down his throat with a flashlight, and can't get the beak open to check.
> 
> ...


...............................................


----------



## Patmara (Jul 6, 2018)

If the bird is eating, wouldn't it's crop expand out visibly showing it's collecting food? Ours always did. 

If not visible, you should be able to feel if anything has collected in it, I would think. 

Possibly make your pea mixture, and thicken it with added small seed?


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

*Update*

Sweetpea is back to Eating Peas and seeds, dont know why he had stopped/why he's suddenly ok with it again now. It took a while of him watching Chickpea and a lot of pecking motions with my thumb before he finally started Eating them properly again, but he's off the bottle again. 
Sweetpea is still quite skittish around People and will jump back into the Cage of his own Accord when he has eaten, should I Keep trying to take him out and spend time with him or should I just let him stay in there if he wants to?
If I should be spending more time with him, is there any way of "motivating" him to "be more tame"?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Never go chasing after them, rather let them come to you and leave him in the cage if that's where he prefers to be. Did we tell you they love chopped up raw unsalted peanuts? That's one way of convincing them to come to you. If the tamer one starts eating them from your hand, the other one will be curious and might follow him. 

Some babies, especially found when a bit older, will always remain skittish around people.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

*Update*

I have been giving them the Vitamins and grit you recommended daily, they are getting quite good at flying around my room (I let them roam around my room freely most of the time, only putting them back in the Cage when I leave the house and at bedtime).
Sweetpea still doesn't want to be groomed and only lets me pick him up if I have chickpea on the same arm I go to pick him up with, but as Long as chickpea is with him he doesnt mind getting close to me. I spend a lot of time at the Computer and they both perch on the chair's headrest, one either side of me usually. Sweetpea sometimes "pecks" at my head and hair (I would assume this is grooming, it certainly doesn't feel aggressive). 
Chickpea will sometimes hop onto my shoulder, snuggle up and groom me, then hop back onto the headrest, absolutely adorable.
On a more worrying note though: Chickpea occasionally shivers a bit, sometimes when I pick her up, sometimes when she is just sitting somewhere. I first noticed this yesterday when I got back from Shopping in the afternoon. Other than being Cold (which I doubt, we've got Pretty hot weather at the Moment), what could this mean? 
They also both sneeze from time to time, I would think that that is normal but according to General Google results (which I generally dont take too seriously as they are almost Always over the top negative) sneezing is listed as one of the "signs that a bird is dying"... Just thought I'd ask you guys to be safe.
:x


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Too much googling on the internet sometimes makes one paranoid. Seems like they are both doing well. Pigeons do sneeze from time to time. As long as they are eating well and the droppings are good, they will be fine.


----------



## toby tatlow (Jun 30, 2018)

Well they are both Eating well, but sweetpea tends to produce rather greenish droppings... What Kind of signs should I be Looking out for with regards to droppings?


----------

