# Can an 11 day old squab keep itself warm?



## Paris

Patience and Constant, my guest pigeons, are leaving the nest for longer periods of time. Their squab, Hope, was born 11 days ago and is sprouting little feathers. She has been alone for almost 3 hours and it is night. Can she keep herself warm through the nights now? It is going down to 17°C (62.5 F), but last night it went down to 12°c (53 F). I would be grateful for any advice.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## Lovebirds

Paris said:


> Patience and Constant, my guest pigeons, are leaving the nest for longer periods of time. Their squab, Hope, was born 11 days ago and is sprouting little feathers. She has been alone for almost 3 hours and it is night. Can she keep herself warm through the nights now? It is going down to 17°C (62.5 F), but last night it went down to 12°c (53 F). I would be grateful for any advice.
> Thanks in advance.


Yes, they should be just fine. I raise my babies in Jan, Feb and March. I have babies that age in temps as low as 25F and 30F. It's normal for the parents to start leaving them at this age.


----------



## Paris

*Thank you, Lovebirds!!!*

Oh, Lovebirds, thank you so much for your quick reply and reassurance! 
Now I can go to bed!!

Jane in Paris


----------



## Lovebirds

You're welcome. Good night.


----------



## pdpbison

Paris said:


> Patience and Constant, my guest pigeons, are leaving the nest for longer periods of time. Their squab, Hope, was born 11 days ago and is sprouting little feathers. She has been alone for almost 3 hours and it is night. Can she keep herself warm through the nights now? It is going down to 17°C (62.5 F), but last night it went down to 12°c (53 F). I would be grateful for any advice.
> Thanks in advance.




Hi Paris, 



Just set her into your palm...and, if she is a 'Little Furnace' you will be able to tell instantly...


If she is not, then she is not making her own warmth very well yet...and may need a little outside warming.


Individual Babys vary as for when they become endothermic, but usually, the Pigeon parents are a good judge of this matter, and arrange their own sittings to co-respond to the Baby's increasing endothermy.




Have fun..!



Phil
l v


----------



## Paris

*Touching a non-orphaned feral squab?*

Hi Phil

I can actually touch or hold the squab without fear of it being rejected later by its parents later? 

Mother Patience was back on the nest this morning when I got up, but now Hope is alone again this morning, looking at me and squeaking. We are having quite a conversation. 

I would love to touch her... do squabs like to be petted?

This is my first pigeon experience and I am obviously clueless!!!

Thanks
Jane


----------



## pdpbison

Paris said:


> Hi Phil
> 
> I can actually touch or hold the squab without fear of it being rejected later by its parents later?
> 
> Mother Patience was back on the nest this morning when I got up, but now Hope is alone again this morning, looking at me and squeaking. We are having quite a conversation.
> 
> I would love to touch her... do squabs like to be petted?
> 
> This is my first pigeon experience and I am obviously clueless!!!
> 
> Thanks
> Jane



Hi Jane, 


They do not like to be petted...but, they can like to be pretend-preened softly on their backs and shoulders...but, it tends to get them all wound up thinking it is chow time.

But...

Unless these and their Baby are indoor family members, I'd say it is best to interfere as little as possible, other than what is needed to assure yourself all is well with the Baby.

If this Baby is slated for the Wild, it is probably best if it looks to it's parents for attentions, and, is not encouraged to be looking to you for attention.


If you pretend 'preen' and fuss in ways he likes, or get him all wound up thinking you are going to feed him, which ANY 'attentions' will tend to do fairly soon...then he will be thinking you are going to feed him, since by now or soon, about the only time his parents will be interacting with him, is to feed him...and he will be getting so wound up about it, they will stay away all they can between times just to have some peace. This is how it will be for the next month or so,or till he starts flying to follow them to learn to peck, forrage, drink-water and so on.


So really, tempting as it may be otherwise, I think for his sake, it would be best to look on admireingly from a distance, and just let his parents raise him and enjoy watching him grow up without interacting with him...


Studying how his parents raise him, is a very good pre-requisite for occasions in which you may be called upon to raise an 'Orphan' Baby Pigeon...too...


In which event, you and the Baby or Youngster will get all the holding and fussing and so on as you see fit to lavish, since you will be 'momma' and 'daddy' then...and as long as you cover the basic bases alright, you can do all of that you like and that's fine.



Phil
l v


----------



## Paris

*more questions!*

Hi Phil

Thanks for your quick reply - it's afternoon in Paris so it is the wee hours where you are - fortunately for me, you're a night owl 

I do feel a little sorry for the squab all alone; its sibling died in its shell... one reason why I named this surviving squab Hope.

However, I understand your advice very well and will not interfere. 
Since most of the advice on the site is about taking care of very young squabs, I wasn't sure what to do or think when the 10-12 day old is left alone. 

For example, if something DID happen to its parents, and they didn't come back, at what point would I know that and when to intervene with feeding?

My next concern is when she starts to walk. The nest is in a flower window box on a window-ledge, 4 flights up. There is no balcony or overhang. If Hope walks off the window box, she'll have a long fall. Should I be worried about this or will she "know" not to walk off?

On my side of the window, there is a wide shelf (12 inches or 30 cm deep) that she could get to if she gets out of the windowbox. Is she likely to walk into my apartment if i have the window open? 

Last but not least, no one seems to be touching the bird seed i put into the windowbox - should i spoon some closer to the nest? Should I put the little bowl of water closer? We are having hot days and sometimes she pants. Can a 12 day old squab eat bird seed yet?

Many many thanks!!!
Jane


----------



## Lovebirds

Paris said:


> Hi Phil
> 
> Thanks for your quick reply - it's afternoon in Paris so it is the wee hours where you are - fortunately for me, you're a night owl
> 
> I do feel a little sorry for the squab all alone; its sibling died in its shell... one reason why I named this surviving squab Hope.
> 
> However, I understand your advice very well and will not interfere.
> Since most of the advice on the site is about taking care of very young squabs, I wasn't sure what to do or think when the 10-12 day old is left alone.
> 
> For example, if something DID happen to its parents, and they didn't come back, at what point would I know that and when to intervene with feeding?
> 
> My next concern is when she starts to walk. The nest is in a flower window box on a window-ledge, 4 flights up. There is no balcony or overhang. If Hope walks off the window box, she'll have a long fall. Should I be worried about this or will she "know" not to walk off?
> 
> On my side of the window, there is a wide shelf (12 inches or 30 cm deep) that she could get to if she gets out of the windowbox. Is she likely to walk into my apartment if i have the window open?
> 
> Last but not least, no one seems to be touching the bird seed i put into the windowbox - should i spoon some closer to the nest? Should I put the little bowl of water closer? We are having hot days and sometimes she pants. Can a 12 day old squab eat bird seed yet?
> 
> Many many thanks!!!
> 
> Jane


Jane, I'm not Phil, but............he may be sleeping now......who knows? LOL
I don't know how much you are home during the day, so not sure how you would know if Dad or Mom or both are not coming to feed the baby. I actually wouldn't worry SO much about it. Even if something happened to one or the other, the one that's left would continue to take care of the babies. It's unlikely that something would happen to both of them, but then again, you just never know. All you can really do is keep an eye on things and if you have concerns or think there may be a problem, we can deal with it then.
12 day old babies do not eat seeds, not on their own anyway......they're still fed by the parents only. It will be another couple of weeks before they even think about eating the seeds and then, only if they see the parents eating them. 
As far as the baby falling...........I won't tell you that it won't happen, in fact, there's a possibility of the baby falling and that concerns me too, but, unless you can come up with something to keep that from happening, there's really not much you can do, short of taking the baby. If your window is open, it just might venture inside, but, there's the possibility of it getting startled and accidently "running" back out and falling out of the flower box. Then again, if you made any major changes to the flower box, it could be enough to scare the parents off and then, there's the baby with no one to care for it. Don't know why these guys can't pick better nesting spots and not worry us so much. 
So..........I guess, after all of that being said.......all you can do is keep an eye on things and step in if anything goes wrong. 
Can you post pictures of the baby and the flower box? No particular reason really, except that we just love pictures.


----------



## pdpbison

Paris said:


> Hi Phil
> 
> Thanks for your quick reply - it's afternoon in Paris so it is the wee hours where you are - fortunately for me, you're a night owl
> 
> I do feel a little sorry for the squab all alone; its sibling died in its shell... one reason why I named this surviving squab Hope.
> 
> However, I understand your advice very well and will not interfere.
> Since most of the advice on the site is about taking care of very young squabs, I wasn't sure what to do or think when the 10-12 day old is left alone.



Hi Jane, 



It is normal for the parents to leave the older Baby(s) alone quite a bit, once the Baby(s) are making their own Body heat well...the Babys abide just fine, they day dream, nap, have leisures, and this is their normal Natural History.


Single Babys manage this just fine, and are typically healthy, happy and patient with their growing experience progressing at it's leisure.


Soon, the parents will probably be sitting on new eggs in a different Nest location, and the whole cycle continues, overlapping as it does.


As the Baby grows and can be fed more to a meal, the parents need not come as often to feed the Baby...at this phase then, the parents usually are being about their new Eggs, and spending time sitting on those...





> For example, if something DID happen to its parents, and they didn't come back, at what point would I know that and when to intervene with feeding?




It's very unlikely anything would happen to it's parents which would prevent them from feeding their Baby.


But, if the Baby was showing no presence of food in it's crop, and or is seen 'pacing' or being active-anxious and no food in it's Crop, than that would be a 'sign' that something had gone amiss with his parents.





> My next concern is when she starts to walk. The nest is in a flower window box on a window-ledge, 4 flights up. There is no balcony or overhang. If Hope walks off the window box, she'll have a long fall. Should I be worried about this or will she "know" not to walk off?
> 
> On my side of the window, there is a wide shelf (12 inches or 30 cm deep) that she could get to if she gets out of the windowbox. Is she likely to walk into my apartment if i have the window open?




They are by Nature, Cliff and Ledge Nesting Birds, and the Babys know how to stay put...the higher the Nest, the later the Baby will wait to try his first flight.





> Last but not least, no one seems to be touching the bird seed i put into the windowbox - should i spoon some closer to the nest? Should I put the little bowl of water closer? We are having hot days and sometimes she pants. Can a 12 day old squab eat bird seed yet?
> 
> Many many thanks!!!
> Jane




As Lovebirds mentions above, "No", and in Nature, the Baby will not learn to eat Seeds or drink Water untill some days or a week or more after he is flying well enough to go with mom or dad, dad usually, to learn about forraging and grazing and how to peck and how to drink and to be socialized unto his Pigeon Community and acquire their modes of being and doing things.

Till then, his parents feed and water him.


Can you post a picture or two?


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Paris

Thank you Renee and Phil for your thoughtful and thorough replies!
You are enormously helpful.

You can find a photo or two - or ten - in the album I just posted on my page.

Bisous (kisses) from Paris
Jane


----------



## Lovebirds

What wonderful pictures!! So, these are what kind of pigeon? Wood pigeons? They are beautiful birds. Hope looks really good except in that one picture where she appears to be hot from the sun. Don't guess there's a lot that can be done about that. I sure hope she hangs on in the flower pot. What a cute little bird.


----------



## Paris

Hi Renee,

Glad you like my photos! Yes, I've been told they are wood pigeons.

The window-box only gets the morning sun and Hope pants when she gets too hot. (I only learned that pigeons could pant while observing Patience sit on the eggs.) So the other day, Hope was alone and hot and panting, and that's when she crawled into the shade at the edge of the window box, and stuck her face in the ivy against the window, where she took a nap. It was so-o-o-o cute.

BTW I visited your website and it is very impressive! I'm so grateful to have the advice of experts here on this website.

Jane


----------



## Lovebirds

Paris said:


> Hi Renee,
> 
> Glad you like my photos! Yes, I've been told they are wood pigeons.
> 
> The window-box only gets the morning sun and Hope pants when she gets too hot. (I only learned that pigeons could pant while observing Patience sit on the eggs.) So the other day, Hope was alone and hot and panting, and that's when she crawled into the shade at the edge of the window box, and stuck her face in the ivy against the window, where she took a nap. It was so-o-o-o cute.
> 
> BTW I visited your website and it is very impressive! I'm so grateful to have the advice of experts here on this website.
> 
> Jane



Thanks for the nice comments about the web site. We enjoy the loft and the birds. I guess this is the first baby wood pigeon I've ever seen. Be interesting watching it grow up. We don't have wood pigeons in the US that I know of. We don't have them in Virginia anyway........LOL


----------



## little bird

Beautiful series....keep them coming.......have not seen the growing up of a wood pigeon. They are so healthy and beautiful.


----------



## Lovebirds

I just found this recording of a wood pigeon. Hope it works. 

http://www.garden-birds.co.uk/share...co.uk/birds/sounds/wood_pigeon.mov&title=Song


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Paris, 





I would like to view the Pictures, but I do not know where to find them...



Phil
l v


----------



## little bird

Thanks Renee....sounds more like our wild & ringneck doves than like our pijies.


----------



## Lovebirds

pdpbison said:


> Hi Paris,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to view the Pictures, but I do not know where to find them...
> 
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v


Click on Paris' name on one of her posts. Then look on the right hand side of the page. You'll see an album entitled "Summer of Hope".


----------



## Paris

*Wood pigeon coo*

Yes, that does sound like a wood pigeon although the call can be much longer and throatier. I've learned to mimic it, and have cooed back at Constant when he starts up. He then stops abruptly and looks at me with one eye, as if surprised.


----------



## Paris

Hi Phil,

To se the photos, you go to my page - Paris - and on the right hand side of the screen you will see a section called "Albums" and a title called "The Summer of Hope" with a photo. click on the photo or maybe the album title, and a page of photos will open up. If you click on a photo, it will open larger and you can read the caption underneath. Click on the LAST photo first, because it starts the series, and then keep clicking on "previous photo" to see them in correct order. Hope this is helpful. Please let me know if it works. 

(BTW Phil, your PM space is full and can't accept any more PMs..)

Now - another event. After some very hot days here, it is pouring rain tonight. I suppose if baby pigeons shouldn't get wet, the parents would build a covered nest, but poor Hope is out there, huddled down, all alone, looking at me through the window... Actually, the rain doesn't seem to be getting this close to the building or on her (yet), but should I do anything?? 

Jane


----------



## Lovebirds

Is it night time there now? Do the parents stay around near the nest at night?


----------



## Lovebirds

I just checked and it's about 1:30 in the morning there? If the parents aren't around and there's no chance of them coming to where Hope is before daylight, I personally, would bring her inside, put her in something comfy for the rest of the night and put her back before daylight. You don't want the parents to show up and find their baby missing. I wouldn't leave her out in the rain. As long as you take her and put her back the parents will never know the difference. I would also throw some sort of cover over the flower pot so that it doesn't get all wet and muddy for Hope to have to sit on in the morning.


----------



## Paris

*Bringing in a baby from the pouring rain*

Hi Renee - I went to bed before I read your last posts. It's now 4am in Paris. I awoke 15 minutes ago because the sound of the rain was so loud and raining in against the windows... which meant that Hope was getting wet. I got up and saw poor baby Hope, still alone and looking miserable. I immediately read your post and have brought her in. She didn't put up a struggle at all. She's soaking wet and I have her on toweling and a very soft velveteen fabric in a big plastic box. I don't have anything to put over the flower box that will stay afixed.

I have no idea when the parents will be back. They only just started leaving her alone for so long. 

Questions- 
What happens if I don't put the baby back in the nest before the parents get back and they find her missing? Will they come back later? What if they see her through the window (her box is on the shelf=ledge by the window.) What happens if I wake up and a parent is there? Can I put the baby back in the nest in front of them? 

I'd really like to go back to bed....perhaps i should set my alarm for just before dawn and put her back then, but what if it's still raining hard? If it doesn't let up, I would hate to put her back out in the pouring rain but do I dare risk not having her in her nest before the parents arrive?

She does seem comfortable now...
Thanks
Jane


----------



## junex

I have seen this in youtube! 

here's the link! -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tRP3o-tSMc

Love the video!


----------

