# Help! Moody! (sorry for repost, want people to see this)



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Please, someone help me... I don't know what's on my hands but I am not liking it at all! Please...

So, tonight Moody went into the bath. I had a friend over and Moody got really anxious. She was really attacking my friend and was not happy. I started to smell blood, so I figured she was going to start bleeding.... She always does when she's anxious.

SO the little sore on her vent starts to bleed... a lot... dripping everywhere... she apparently shook off a little... WART or something?? It's yellowish but has gray on it, looks like a scab or a wart. It's rubbery.

I try to get the blood to stop, it doesn't seem to be going so well, it's dripping but not pouring or anything, she seems fine and dandy and chows down on some peas and corn and is happy... AND THEN...

She poops out some little tiny, tanned-color ball! It looks like it has VEINS on it, for God's sake. Tiny, tanned veins! It's hard but has a bit of a give... I was freaked out...

BUT THIS IS THE THING...
When I squeeze the ball...

IT CLICKS! It freaking clicks like a little crack in your wrist or like a jumping bean!

WHAT THE HECK IS THIS?!??

it's..about 1/4-1/3 of an inch long.

she seems oblivious. totally happy to preen. nice pink, blushy beak. not scared or skinny or anything. totally happy.


Is this an egg or something??


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Help.  Please.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't know what it is, Vasp, but keep looking and someone should be able to help. I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with her, for both of your sakes! I wish I knew more about geese so I had some kind of idea. Just stay tuned and we'll see what we can find out. I think you mentioned she has already been to the vet? I don't see how the vet can't figure out what is wrong.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know. Cut it open through the middle and describe it.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I know.  The vet is so clueless! My Moody deserves better care than this!

The 'bean' doesn't click anymore.

It seems to have 'died'.

...This is so weird...

Moody is acting so happy.
She responds happily to my voice, loves her corn and peas, and is just preening so happily right now. So oblivious!

Thank you for replying, Maryjane. I really appreciate it. 

Okay, pidgey... It's stopped clicking and so I'll go get a knife..

Man, I sure hope something doesn't jump out at me.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if you're going to be making another Aliens sequel...

Pidgey


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Well, if you're going to be making another Aliens sequel...
> 
> Pidgey


Yeah, this would be the time!! Hopefully nothing alive in there!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Whaddya' wanna' bet she gets eaten by the thing and that's the last we ever hear of her?

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

LOL....no alien sequel, unfortunately... BUT LOL!! This is hilarious... But yet, it has a point to it...

So, my powers of observation are wonderful.
I went down to get a knife and while there, wanted to pick up the little 'wart' thing she shook off earlier that seemed to cause a lot of her bleeding. While on the ground, I reached for one of her dried peas on the ground, which was stained with raspberry juice, so looked red. I thought it was the wart, but of course it wasn't. So I just looked at it, tried to figure out what it was and realized...

Hey, it was about the same size as the thing Moody pooped out!
So, looking at it closer, I bring it to my ear to click around with and..


It's a dried freaking pea with no color.



Vasp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

La Cucaracha! La Cucaracha!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, that's not good if it means that it went all the way through the goose without getting broken down. Is that what you're saying happened?

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yeah. What I'm saying is that it's funny I thought it was an alien species or something, but it has a point. Moody has some sort of gizzard problem or something. But...could it be that she just doesn't have grit? Been trying to find some...but haven't found any big enough for her...she doesn't poop all of her peas out like this.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She might seem to be real hungry and it's not doing her any good. How much does this goose weigh?

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm very sorry Moody is sick, but you guys crack me up.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When it comes to feeding geese, I'm not the person you want to talk to. Terry would be far better at this point. Did you ever take some ACV and paint that vent?

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

She's about 14 pounds. She's gained weight over the last while, actually. But... She's a bit underweight. The vet felt her keel bone, weighed her and assured me that yes, she is underweight.

We are trying to figure out why.
What I did figure out though, is this:

She does not have really deep internal bleeding...
BUT she bleeds from her cloaca... Inside and outside... Quite a bit, especially when stressed.
It looks like some sort of growth is in her cloaca and ON her cloaca. Once she calms down, I'll test with the ACV water I bought.
However... I think she might have a bacterial or fungal problem.. Extremely smelly, sometimes bloody poop (probably because of her cloaca and only when she gets stressed out), and slow growth, bad feather quality, feather loss (only loses small feathers, and all the time, every day) and underweight....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can't use ACV water for that--you gotta' use full ACV: 5% Acetic Acid.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Haha, yeah, that's what I meant.  Slip up.

-reads from bottle-

Certified organic apple cider vinegar with "mother"
unflitered and unpasteurized
5% acetic acid

Eugh, it smells like wine. D:

So what could be wrong with my dear Moody, do you think?
The blood is from the sores on and in her cloaca.
A bit of swelling and redness in the vent area...but not incredible amounts...
She's lost some feathers there... Really foul smell, but it varies day to day. Diarrhea most of the time.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did you ever read what I posted for you earlier about Papillomatosis?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This is the test for that. That's one of the things that your growths could be.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, I did. I looked it up and the symptoms match quite well.
I posted on the topic you posted that information on, saying that I agree it sounds like it. But on a site I found, (I gave the URL on the original topic for this) it said that fungal and bacterial infections can mimic the symptoms of Papillomatosis.. And also, Papillomatosis is common, but only in the parrot family. I was thinking it might be a fungal or bacterial infection that we're dealing with here.

Her symptoms really do match up though.

"They may be seen protruding from the vent when the bird becomes stressed or during elimination. Straining, *blood in the droppings, passing gas and an abnormal odor to the droppings occur.*

...*A waxing and waning course often occurs, with signs subsiding for a while.* Over time, however, the lesious progress. Papillomatosis has been associated with bile duct and pancreatic duct in amazon parrots.

Diagnosis is by physical examination, contrast radiographs and fluoroscopy.

A number of treatment modalities have been tried which include surgical resection, cryosurgery, chemical cautery, autogenous vaccination, and laser. Laser surgery seems to offer the best results.

All new birds of susceptible species should be thoroughly examined to identify those with oral or cloacal papillomas. Infected birds should not be housed with non-infected birds.

*Papillomatosis in unable to be cured. Palliation can be done to make affected birds more comfortable, but it is often a progressive, debilitating disease.*

*This disease can mimic other diseases such as foreign bodies, bacterial and fungal infections, lead poisoning and PDD.*

Charis, if you read this - kudos to you! She just may have lead poisoning after all. Oh dear... So many things to look out for...


So, she's just a 7 month old baby, has never seen another bird in her life (none the less a sick one) and I don't know how easy it would be for her to contract this incurable disease. Is it likely, or are the other problems, all considered already--foreign bodies, bacterial and fungal infections, lead poisoning, and PDD (what is this, anyway?)--more likely?


Vasp


Update: I applied some apple cider vinegar to her vent and the growth that is there. Man, it sure smells like wine...tastes pretty good, actually. Salty. (Lol, no I didn't drink the whole thing)

So...

How long do I wait to see if it turns white?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's why I want you to do the ACV test--how much cheaper of a test can you get?

Pidgey


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> That's why I want you to do the ACV test--how much cheaper of a test can you get?
> 
> Pidgey


Gotta love those around-the-house tests and remedies. Muuuch easier on the pocketbook.  I'm glad there is no alien sequel. I would especially try to keep Moody away from anything or anyone that stresses her out, since I know you said she got upset when she saw your friend. I think a lot of animals are like that about strangers. Then maybe if she was as stress-free as possible, it would be easier on her. She sure is a lucky goose to have you to care for her!


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

She will DEFINITELY be having very gentle spray-baths with no strangers around, and I will sit with her, feeding her peas and corn and greens the entire time...she's okay if she's around strangers in her diaper, but if she's diaperless and in the bath, she really freaks out. She hates water sometimes. Only likes to bathe in it and drink it, hates being sprayed with it, hates standing in it, hates being around it for too long. She's okay now. How long should I wait to see if it turns white? Because it didn't turn white right away, if it was meant to.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Fairly quickly. That's a test right out of the veterinary books. Looks like we're getting closer to lead poisoning.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In the books, by the way, there is every presentation from full-blown neurological like you'd mentioned to the bird being asymptomatic. When they get it through paint chips, it doesn't generally go as weird and it won't show up in a radiographic examination. That's because the stuff gets more disseminated. You may have to look into some kind of chelation therapy. I'd imagine that'd be cost prohibitive for a bird that big.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Could it not be a fungal or bacterial infection of some sort? She did have a little chew at our window sill, but nothing crazy. She couldn't have ingested that much, and not pieces of lead either... Just some paint that may or may not contain lead. I'd like to do a blood test before doing anything crazy, annnd... Well, I want to see if it'll be fungal or bacterial first.

Thing is, when she was on Metronidazole, her symptoms seemed to go away. A bit of blood returned near the end though... But the smell was gone and the consistency was much better. And what is metronidazole anyway...? Well, it treats anaerobic bacterial infections, so maybe she has a bacterial infection and it helped a bit because it DOES treat bacterial infections, but wasn't perfectly working because it's not the specific type she needs...? I don't know, but I'd like to try a dose of Nystatin first. I actually had a bottle of Nystatin when I dealt with a fungal infection in a young pigeon about two years ago, but threw it out quite a while ago. In any case... I want to make sure it isn't bacterial or fungal first.

Is there any reason why it might not be?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, it's highly likely that the funny smell could be bacterial in origin. You might also call it a "purulent discharge". Personally, I'd take a swab, wipe it on a slide with a drop of saline if need be and then examine it under a microscope. The possibilities are just too endless without any conclusive tests. If there were rampant fungal hyphae or budding yeasts, you'd see them. If there was a real high bacterial count, you'd see it. If there were real blood cells instead of hemoglobinuria, you'd see them. That's what I mean.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Ah, yes. I think I should certainly do that. I would be interested in purchasing a microscope myself and taking a bacterial swab myself, but I'm unsure of exactly how to do this. I don't want to really take her in to the vet because the stress would cause her to bleed a lot. It has been getting a lot worse in that sense, because she now bleeds whenever she's significantly stressed out enough. She didn't before I put her on Metronidazole, but it has progressed somewhat...

Anyway, how would I go about identifying different bacteria and yeast and the like in a swab? How does one take a swab? What sort of microscope should I buy? I'd be willing to do the research and spend the money. A bacterial swab for a bird here costs more than a hundred dollars anyway.

Oh, also, how could the poop not have real blood? She was dripping blood just earlier this evening... The source seems to be a lot of bleeding from her cloaca, inside and out, when she is nervous... What is hemoglobinuria, anyway?


Vasp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Read:

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

Pidgey


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

OMG Vasp!!!

Read the posts on the first thread and the ones here and I now need to do the ACV test on my vent!!!!!!!!!
This was so scary just to read, I can't imagine what the heck you went through!
Soooooo glad that the rest of our Birdie Family came to guide you as I wouldn't have been any help lying on the floor passed out!!!

I am praying so hard for your little Moody! The one thing that I'm thankful to God for already is that she seems to be acting happy and fine, which is kind of miraculous after passing blood and 'alien' looking type things with veins and rubbery!!! UGH! (Maybe I'll laugh about the alien thing someday, but definitely not at the moment!) 
Pidgy, your url refs. are very helpful to know....thanks for sharing with us!

I'm going to wish you well and get to some of the other posts to help my heart rate get back to normal!

Looking forward VERY MUCH to good news about Moody!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Vasp said:


> Oh, also, how could the poop not have real blood? She was dripping blood just earlier this evening... The source seems to be a lot of bleeding from her cloaca, inside and out, when she is nervous... What is hemoglobinuria, anyway?
> 
> 
> Vasp


Hemoglobinuria literally means hemoglobin in the urine. Hemoglobin can look like blood. It's the stuff that blood's made of, it has the iron and the protein, just not the cells. Avian blood cells are easily recognizable on a slide at even 100x total magnification--they look like little glass ovals with smaller dark red oval nuclei. You could even see them with a $20 microscope from the kid's department (even saw a set at Walgreen's this Christmas shopping season).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, Vasp, I guess some explanation is in order. What I remember reading about some presentations of lead poisoning pointed to some kind of organ or kidney damage such that one of the things that leaks out with the regular urine is some hemoglobin. It would make a little bit of sense that this is happening because all birds tend to dump more unprocessed urine when they get excited.

Normally, urine flows from the kidneys into the urodeum, where it then is allowed to flow retrograde into the intestines for water reclamation (and some minerals). When a bird gets excited as we all know, they often shoot some urine, or free water, out the vent. In this bird's case, it seems like there's a lot of blood in it. That ties in well with the idea of kidney damage. Given the composition of hemoglobin, I can well imagine there also being a chronic bacterial infection, too, causing an odor. 

That just shores up the possibility that it's something to do with lead poisoning.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Sorry for my absence, everyone. I caught the flu, and at such a terrible time, too! Poor Moody and I have been trying to go along as usual, even though yesterday I was so feverish I could hardly stand and was shaking terribly... So... There are so many possibilities for my dear Moody...

My vet is calling up a few other, perhaps more experienced avian vets, and they are going to talk about Moody's predicament and what it could be. Moody is less pooping out blood than she is bleeding... As in... When she gets excited, the tiny, less than pea-sized lump on her vent starts to bleed. If you look closely, you can see that the blood is coming from that source. She could have lead poisoning and on top of that, sores on her vent, but we'd have to check and see if the blood is from the sore on her cloaca or if it's actually hemoglobin, which is a possibility.

But.. All things considered, the vet thinks it's either:
a) the vent sores are part of an infected rash from the diarrhea she's been having from a fungal or bacterial infection

or

b) the vent sores are part of a fungal or bacterial infection; sort of like Papillomatosis, but fungal or bacterial in origin...

Today, her poop smelled like it had a lot of ammonia in it. Very wet, slightly greenish, diarrhea. Ech. It looks like the sore on her vent has scabbed over temporarily. Until next time when she gets nervous, then it will bleed again...


THANK YOU all for your well wishes and help! And thank you, Christin... It was very frightening for me. When the sore on Moody's vent was bleeding, I was trying to clot it out and calm her down, so I put the sheet from my bed under her in the bath tub (where she was), sat down beside her, got her sitting down and pressed a wad of toilet paper against the sore and cooed to her to calm down. My poor girl.. The blood was just dripping from the sore!  Whenever something happens to her, I panic. But, of course, I have to keep my wits about me in order to help her. It's quite a struggle.

She is my little kid, in all honesty, I watched her grow and took care of her, hatched her and candled her egg and saw her little tiny baby feet kicking around... I'd be completely devastated if I lost her, I can't even explain it. Even if dealing with her smelly diarrhea and now blood for many months is an absolutely bummer, she will always be the light of my life.

I sincerely hope that she recovers fully... Thank you so much.


Vasp


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Thoughts and Prayers are still with you guys!
I was hoping to find better news here, but I guess this will have to do for now.
I'm thankful that the 'thing' on her vent is scabbed. I hope she can remain calm until one of those vets can help your poor little girl.

I understand so much how you feel when you see her ill and feel so helpless. She's blessed to have you and I'm sure she can feel how you love her.
It was touching to hear how you sat and cooed for her...and even took your own bed sheet for her.

We just have to keep praying that God will inspire these vets with the answer along with keeping Moody well until then. I'm also sorry that you were ill. Take you vitamins and plenty of fluids. Both you and Moody need to comfort and rest with each other.
And as I always state, PRAY PRAY AND PRAY SOME MORE!

I'm with you in spirt and will keep checking to see how things are progressing!

Have a Blessed night!


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