# Help! How old is this squab? Not sure what to feed him



## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi everyone, 

Someone rescued a bird that was weak, extremely skinny and lifeless and gave him to us. We took him to an avian vet who confirmed he was not doing OK, but not injured. He weighed in at only 139g and has almost no muscle or flesh on him. The vet gave some antibiotics and formula and we took him home to nurse him to strength. The vet had no real knowledge of pigeons, so it wasn't until we took a look at some of the squab pictures on this site that we were sure he is a squab. He is, but we are not sure how old he is so we are not sure of we should be supplementing his feed with formult too to help fatten him up. We are also not sure if he can drink water on his own yet and thought that maybe formula would be helpful for that too...Can anyone help us figure out how old he is? When do you take him off formula entirely? Here is what we know about him:

-- He has feathers on the outside of his wings and on his back. He is bald under his wings, on one spot on his head, on parts of his neck and shoulders, and on his sides and tummy. I'd say he's a little more than half feathered.
--He has just a few down "hairs" sticking off the top of his head. The rest are all gone.
-- He can eat small seeds (Foy's Pigeon Candy) but drops larger seeds. No chance of peas! He ate crushed pigeon pelets, but can't eat whole ones. His appetite seems good.
-- I got him to dip his beak and "nibble" water, but I am not sure he knows to how to drink yet.
-- He flutters his wings, but we are not sure if he could fly even a short distance. We didn't want to test him for fear he'd get hurt...

Would it be helpful to give him formula in addition to seeds at this stage or just work on getting him to drink the water? Also, does he still need a heating pad or will he get too warm? Can he bathe yet?

Thank you! I'll try to attach a picture, but we don't really have a good one yet.


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

*Picture!*

We'll try to get a better picture, but you can see him a little.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here's a link to the day to day developement of a baby pigeon from the resource section:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

Judging from feathers and eyes, I'm guessing somewhere around 22 days, maybe a couple more. The lighting in the carrier isn't as bright as it could be.
You could continue to let it eat seeds while augmenting with formula, or if
you like, soak some puppy kibble and push to the back of mouth for the pigeon
to swallow itself. Be careful not to overfeed the baby, the crop should be plump but not taught and should empty between feedings. Try and measure how much fluids the baby is taking in on it's own. What kind of antibiotics did the vet put the squab on and
what did he say the problem was? Thanks for helping this little one out.

fp


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi Feral,

Not sure what kind of antibiotics -- the vet did not tell us. She wasn't sure what is wrong with the bird -- she discussed many possibilities, but basically, the only symptoms were that the bird is emaciated and was very weak. 

How often should we feed him seed and how much? Do you think that he would do better if we gave him formula too? If he does not drink enough water what should we do? This is the first time we have taken care of a baby and we're nervous...I am not sure where his crop is or how to tell if it is full or empty...Having some idea of how much and how often to feed would really help. Most of the info I have found on the site deals with much younger birds. When should he be able to eat seed and drink completely by himself?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

By all means feed this little guy. He is what I consider out of the squab stage, but barely, and entering the fledgling stage. Every baby we get in like yours is automatically fed at least 3 x day. We also weigh them to make sure they're gaining weight. You probably won't have to feed him too long before you can start weaning him. Keep small seed and water available during the day. They catch on pretty quick.

Could you tell us what the antibiotic is. If this vet didn't know the difference between a young pigeon and an adult, and, if the size is what made him give you the antibiotic, then he may not need it at all.


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi Maggie,

So you are saying feed him Katee Exact 3x a day or help him eat seed 3x a day? How much of either one or both do you give at his age? When I get him going on the seed, he is a pretty good eater. 

We have no idea what the vet gave him (it was a shot) and she is not in the office today -- we just called. She gave the antibiotic for two reasons -- one, because she felt their had to be some reason he is all skin and bones and the antibiotic might help some of the possibilities. Also, he had a teeny little bit of blood on one wing. No visible inury, but she thought there might be a small scratch or puncture somewhere.

We are most concerned about getting enough fluids in him How do we make sure he's got enough?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and Welcome.

Thank you for taking this little one "under your wing"...so to speak..

What a cutie.

What do his poops look like?

I would hesitate to give any bird an antibiotic without knowing what for. You can however, give this baby a drop of Sovereign Silver down the throat in case of some kind of infection foing on, without harming the bird.

Make sure he eats a tablespoon or more of small mix of seed at least four times a day. Also, I would highly recommend this youngster gets a few good doses of probiotics, either avian or human. You can mix them in formula or add to seed. This will enable him to build up good gut bacteria and help digest his food better and increase the appetite. 

Also put a drop of organic apple cider vinegar in his water dish every other day, it will help set up a favorable environment for good gut bacteria to thrive and kep an acidity level unfavorable for bad bacteria to multiply.

allow the bird access to a heating pad set on low, but make sure he can find an area to sleep on where there is no heating pad, incase he doesn't need the extra warmth.


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

What do his poops look like?

Hi Treesa,

When we got him last night they were awful -- runny and bright, bright green. Today, they are getting firmer and nice olive colored. They are small --about 1/8 the size of an adult, but looking good. 

I saw some probiotics today in Petco when we bought the Katee Exact. Are they good probiotics to use?

Thank you so much for your help!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

His poops were bright green because he didn't have any food in his tummy.

Personally, until he stabilizes, I would feed him at least 15 cc of Exact 3 x day and keep seed & water available all the time and try to help him peck. Sounds like he is off to a good start with eating and I doubt it will take too long on the formula. However, because he is thin he needs to be built up.

We use a product called Benebac. It is a probiotic powder that we add to the Exact at least one feeding a day. We've had really good results with it. Also, if you are feeding him Exact don't worry about water too much because he will get all the liquids he needs from the formula.

If he had blood on a wing the vet may have suspected cat bite and treated him accordingly but I would love to know what type injection she gave him.

He looks really good to me. Bright-eyed and alert.


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi Maggie,

If we put the Exact in a bowl and got him to peck at it could he eat it that way?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

No, not likely. It's just not how they are fed by their parents. Here's a link
from the resource section on tube feeding methods:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16235

If you feel comfortable w/one of the methods shown, then try that. Just make sure that the tube doesn't go into the opening directly behind the tongue as this leads to the air sacs/lungs. You want the tubing to go to the back of the throat. 

If you aren't comfortable w/tubing the baby, or some of the other methods, then revert to soaking the
puppy kibble and gently pushing to the back of the throat. I would still do the 
probiotics and find out from the vet if she used Clavamox or what and if there
were supposed to be follow up oral treatments.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Downtown, welcome, and thank you so much for helping this young pigeon. The Kaytee Exact has to be mixed into a liquid formula and given to the bird by syringe, eye dropper, or one of the other methods described in a link in a previous post to you.

Your youngster is probably ready and able to peck a bit at seeds and actually eat some. It's important that you get the supplemental formula in until you/we know that the young one is self sufficient with eating and drinking. By feeding the formula, you will not only be getting nutrition but also fluids into the bird.

As others have also posted, it would be helpful to know what drug the vet injected.

Terry


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

We will definitely feed him the Exact. I read in the resources section that we should make it thinner than the Katee instructions say...What proportion do you usually use?

Also, how can we be sure that he is not getting a slow crop? We have been feeling around on his bony little neck and chest and we are not sure we can even find his crop...Would you please describe what and where we should be feeling and how to know if he is overfed or has slow crop?


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Young birds practice at pecking seeds for at least a week before they are able to drink effectively. Their parents would normally be still feeding them, which is where they would get their fluids. Because of this, it is critical that you offer formula, both for the fluids and the nutrients.

I found it easiest to offer the formula in something approximating the parents' mouth. A baby nipple works great, but if you don't have one, lay a 4" square of plastic wrap over the top of a loose fist. Use a finger to poke a well (lined by the plastic wrap) into your fist. Pour some formula into the well, then gently guide the bird's beak into the fluid. They are most comfortable if there is light contact around their beak while they eat.

Please keep offering formula until the bird is no longer interested. It isn't long, but this support is critical to the young bird.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

downtownbirdies said:


> We will definitely feed him the Exact. I read in the resources section that we should make it thinner than the Katee instructions say...What proportion do you usually use?
> 
> Also, how can we be sure that he is not getting a slow crop? We have been feeling around on his bony little neck and chest and we are not sure we can even find his crop...Would you please describe what and where we should be feeling and how to know if he is overfed or has slow crop?


You want it sort of "pea soupy" .. a lot thinner than pudding but somewhat thicker than soup broth .. 

As to the crop . well .. first we gotta find the crop .. then it will be very, very easy. At the base of the neck, on the front of the chest, is a somewhat
elastic area that is the crop. As the bird drinks or eats, you can literally see and feel the crop fill up. Once you know where it is, it will be easy. I'll be back in a bit with some links to crop pictures. In a teenager or adult, it will be much more difficult to see or feel the crop, but it can still be done.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Terry will probably come up w/some more or mo betta links, but for now:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon3.html

And here's a picture of a member's baby, the almost 'sac like' area between thumb and fingers is the crop:

http://www.sugarbunnie.com/brooklyn.13.3.JPG

Though inclusive of more, thought it would help you to get the gist.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Check this one out: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=17783

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is a great demonstration by one of our members Cynthia (Cyro51).

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

*Help!*

So far it's not going really well...I tried the balloon and syringe method with Exact the texture of pea soup. I tried to get him to stick his beak in the balloon hole, but he resisted and wouldn't do it, so I put the hole over the tip of his beak. (Just the first half of his beak, not as far as his airholes.) He opened his beak only slightly then took his beak out and shook his head. He walked away and started looking for seeds...We did this about 20 times.

*What will make him start to eat the stuff? Should we put his beak in further? I am so afraid of getting the Exact in his airholes. It dries like concrete...Please help.* He is still eating seed, but not enough yet so we need to get him suppemented ASAP. We are certain that we are not expert enough to handle tube feeding. We are still trying to figure out where his crop is for sure...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Perhaps hand feeding him, in addition to what he is eating might help. Try handfeeding some seeds and even small bite-size pieces of an organic dog or puppy chow, that has been soaked and drained. If you can just get a tablespoon down him 4 times a day that will help.

Have you tried just adding a little Exact to his drinking water? it should be very runny, like water, that might be easiest for now.


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Perhaps hand feeding him...QUOTE]
> 
> Treesa, do you mean sticking it in his mouth or him eating it from my hand?
> 
> As far as the Exact in water, I don't think it wil work because he's not really slurping his water much yet. Most times, he is just doing kind of a dip and gulp and I have to coax him to do it.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

downtownbirdies said:


> Trees Gray said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps hand feeding him...QUOTE]
> ...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

downtownbirdies said:


> Trees Gray said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps hand feeding him...QUOTE]
> ...


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Should we also try sticking his beak deeper in the syringe with the Exact or will it get in his airholes??


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

downtownbirdies said:


> Should we also try sticking his beak deeper in the syringe with the Exact or will it get in his airholes??


You can 'experiment' within a perimeter of safety, as long as the end result
is getting nutrition and fluids into the jouvenile along the quantities described
to you. Just remember, if the bird isn't happy about all of this, then you 
don't want to get it into too fidgety of a 'space' without successes.

fp


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Will Exact get in his airholes? How to you make sure it doesn't?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

downtownbirdies said:


> Will Exact get in his airholes? How to you make sure it doesn't?


When introducing fluids into the pigeons mouth, they can inadvertantly go
down the air passageway. This is why the recommended methods either
bybass the problem through tubing or through having the bird do the food
intake itself and self-swallow. Now, you could use a dropper to the very back
of the throat and very slowly trickle it down to ensure that it doesn't back
up to mouth level, or you could trickle it along the side of the beak and see if the bird won't swallow it on their own. Getting the bird involved in the process
is the best way to go in lieu of tubing.

fp


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi FP, I am worried about the airholes on the outside of his beak. If I stick his beak in the syringe of Exact will it go in the airholes on the outside of his beak?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

downtownbirdies said:


> Hi FP, I am worried about the airholes on the outside of his beak. If I stick his beak in the syringe of Exact will it go in the airholes on the outside of his beak?


If you're not tubing the bird and using the balloon method or the like, usually
the bird needs only a gentle introduction to self-feed. In that case, self-feeding, I wouldn't worry about the nares. You should be able to space their beak from the source via a finger or the like. You can wipe beak w/a damp
cloth afterwards. 

fp


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi DTB,

You are getting some good advice. Here is a link, again by cyro51 (Cynthia), on feeding soaked puppy food, or say peas as shown, to a pigeon.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Thanks for helping him and best of luck,

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ron, thanks for posting that link. I had not seen that one. I had been trying to find the one Cynthia did on tube feeding without luck but, lo and behold, it was on the page you just linked. I've bookmarked it this time! 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU&mode=related&search=


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