# HELP!!!!!!HELP!!!!HELP!!!!!!!!



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I just found this pigeon on my balcony now she was like chocking and falling off the edge all the pigeon pushed her off.....i looked down and she was on her back in the grass bellow

she is now with me and can't stand on her feet and struggeling i need HELP NOW !!PLEASE

she opens her mouth like she is choking and i looked at her other end and it is opening and closing...maybe she is laying an egg but she can't stand and i am holding her ....what can i do??????????????


I need help now please

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
When a bird is at the stage where it is gasping, there is probably nothing that can be done. Either she is in incredible pain or she is dying. Her heart may be failing and there is not enough oxygen getting to her body so her lungs are working overtime to get more in. You may see some violent seizures at the very end. She may have been hit by a car and is suffering internal injuries.
Mary, you cannot do anything for this bird. It's a horrible thing to experience and I think you will be very upset for quite a while. The important thing you must realize is that there is not one thing you can do.
Death is part of life and watching it as it happens is a terrible thing to witness. 
If she is still in this condition, can you get her to a neighborhood vet so she can be put to sleep? There is too much suffering here and the best thing to do is to put a stop to it.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I don't think she is laying an egg but she legs are totally straight back and stiff like wood if i lay her on her stomach she opens her wings and starts shaking like crazy like and opening her mouth as if she can't breath and she is dying, i must hold her straight up to breath...

What could this be she was sitting in the water bowl outside and then started rolling out and off the balcony until she landed on her back downstairs...

HELP please!

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
I'll stay with you on this by watching for your posts.
Who can say what happened here? It could be poison too. Everything is guesswork.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

She grips my finger hard.....her upper body is normal but she just has to be held up or she will have a seizure.....she is even trying to flap her wings now but i can't let her go or she will choke.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary, are you still on the computer? I'm trying to be with you during this time.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

She will sit in my plam with her legs in the proper position but if i let go her legs go straight back and she will choke......you are right it could be poison but is there anything i can give her to eat to help her..

Thanks i really appreciate the help..

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Do you see any sign of injury around the throat area?


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
I don't know if it is poison and even if we knew, what kind of poison? What is the antidote?


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Is this choking or gasping?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

throat looks normal.....just the lower body part has tention and is tight..


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

she is standing normal now and walking around but slowly as if she has control of her feet back now.



> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *Mary,
> Is this choking or gasping?*


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

I'll take a shot here...

Water. Now. Speak soothingly and calm her down. Dying or not, there is something you can do--you can comfort her. As with a difficult birth, that's sometimes all there is; and its value is precious.

Next, try getting lytes into her--Pedialyte or Gatoraide mixed 50-50 with water. Then calcium (fruit flavored Tums crushed fine and mixed with water will work). You could do this all at once, if you had the stuff.

Put the treated water in a shallow bowl, and gently guide her head into the water, being calm the whole time.

We rescued a big male (magnificent) two weeks ago with similar symptoms. This treatment calmed the big guy down and he died in peace. God love him. He took four huge gulps of the treated water.

Use hand towels in a box, shaped to help the bird support itself. Keep it cool and kind of dark--and quiet. Never underestimate the value of mercy. I hope I find it when my time arrives.

--Ray


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

When i first seen her she was drinking water and in the water bowl could it be she got water in her lungs and these the symptoms?


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Antidote?

Absorption is the usual treatment--absorption with powdered charcoal. Can you tube or syringe a bird? (forgive me).

--Ray

PS. Our very own Terri rescued and treated a poisoned pigeon two months ago, with no prior experience doing so. That bird is alive today.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I can't imagine her swallowing down the wrong pipe. Was she being bothered at all by other pigeons while she was drinking?


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

You just said, "When i first seen her she was drinking water and in the water bowl could it be she got water in her lungs and these the symptoms?"

Will you calm down and give us ALL the facts at once, please?

Fred, I hope you're still there.

--Ray


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I didn't see her drink but after drinking she went to sit down and all of a sudden her eyes opened wide and she started rolling for the edge..



> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *I can't imagine her swallowing down the wrong pipe. Was she being bothered at all by other pigeons while she was drinking?*


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Sounds like either a seisure or poison.
Can you syringe water into her crop. Better still do you have powdered charcoal?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Ok Ray here it goes:

As i said i looked out the window she finished drinking water and went to sit down in the sun then all of a sudden she started paniking and rolling towards the end.....she got stuck at the end with half her body sticking off the balcony and chocking when all the other pigeons pushed her off..
i ran out looked down and she was on her back i could see her 2 pink feet sticking up so i ran down the stairs brought her up..and put her in a box but she couldn't stand and her other end seemed swollen so i thought she could be egg bound so i held her in a shallow tub of warm water and she seemed relaxed until again she had a siezer and started paniking so i took her out and held her unright and she was fine again...now she is sitting down with her legs in the normal position on the rug.



[This message has been edited by maryco (edited July 04, 2002).]


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Strychnine will cause sesures in between which a creature can appear almost normal.
Can you fill the crop with water?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I don't have the powder charcoal is there anything else i could use?




> Originally posted by Nooti:
> *Sounds like either a seisure or poison.
> Can you syringe water into her crop. Better still do you have powdered charcoal?*


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Ok i will do that..



> Originally posted by Nooti:
> *Strychnine will cause sesures in between which a creature can appear almost normal.
> Can you fill the crop with water?*


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

If you can water into the system it will help to flush out the poison, although I reckon it's probably too late.
Treatment for strichnine is to sedate the victim untill all seisures are suppressed. It is heart failure during a seisure which usually kills. If the seisures are suppressed it can give the system a chance to flush out the poison.
Again I'm only guessing here based on your description of the symptoms. But at least you know we are here for you.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

What do you have access to? What supplies? What resources? What stores are nearby? Can you tube or syringe feed? C'mon, I know it's tough, but organize your thoughts...

Is this bird in the house with you now? Milk is useful for poison treatment too. Hello?

--Ray


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I just gave her water now and after she ran under the chair so i left her there....should i put some seeds for her to eat or will that make problems digesting and stuff maybe soft food??

Thanks


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

No. Calm, Quiet and Darkened. More water later. Observe everything.

--Ray


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I can't tube feed but i can handfeed with some baby bird formula and an eye dropper...the bird is here and as i said under the chair..she can stand now and seems normal except she can't fly....and runs away slowly when i try to hold her



> Originally posted by raynjudy:
> *What do you have access to? What supplies? What resources? What stores are nearby? Can you tube or syringe feed? C'mon, I know it's tough, but organize your thoughts...
> 
> Is this bird in the house with you now? Milk is useful for poison treatment too. Hello?
> ...


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I'm here, Ray.
I don't know what is happening. This could be from anything. A seizure is a seizure is a seizure. Anything can do it. Is the weather very hot there? Could this be overheating?
Is the bird gasping from pain or from lack of oxygen? Is this choking or gasping?
There is water on the balcony and the other birds are ok.
Where do you start when there could be 1000 different reasons for a seizure?
Either the bird will come out of it or it won't.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Yes the weather is very hot here for the last few days but today there is alittle bit wind and it is cool in here so she feels comfy...


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Don't hand feed right now. It puts an extra strain on the system when it sends already limited resources to digest the food.
Keep water there. If you want, put some seed next to it but let the bird make the choice whether it wants to eat or not.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
How hot is it there by you now?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Yes, i won't feed i have some seeds there and she doesn't want them and i gave her water but the thing is she couldn't stand before and she can now and walk.....but she can't fly she just stands behind or under the chair.....i think that means there is still something wrong with her?




> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *Mary,
> Don't hand feed right now. It puts an extra strain on the system when it sends already limited resources to digest the food.
> Keep water there. If you want, put some seed next to it but let the bird make the choice whether it wants to eat or not.*


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Today it's 30 C 

The last few days it was worse about 36 C




> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *Mary,
> How hot is it there by you now?*


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Mary, just give water and nothing else.
If the bird is dehydrated or overheated it will help. If it is poisoned, food will slow down what you are trying to do with the water, and that is flush the system so it is empty.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

OK, i won't give any food, she just tried to fly up to a pillow but she looked like she has a hard time opening her wings but she did it....how long should i be giving her water ? and how long should i leave her without food...?


I really can't thank everyone enough







, This website and everyone here is GREAT.....i really appreciate all the help and i am sure the pigeon does too











> Originally posted by Nooti:
> *Mary, just give water and nothing else.
> If the bird is dehydrated or overheated it will help. If it is poisoned, food will slow down what you are trying to do with the water, and that is flush the system so it is empty.*


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Can you get Pedalyte? That's a bottled water that has elecrolytes for restoring the natural balance in the body. It's better than plain water. If you can get it, only buy the plain type.
Mary, I simply don't know. I asked about the temperature because of the possibility of a heat stroke but I'm just adding to a host of other possibilities.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Assuming the bird makes it through the next few hours, can you keep her indoors for a few days? This pigeon has to be drained of energy from whatever happened. She is so weakened, she can barely fly up to the sofa.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Yes, i can keep her as long as she recovers i have nothing else to do and i don't want her to die....i am sooo happy i found her she might have died down there or something.




> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *Mary,
> Assuming the bird makes it through the next few hours, can you keep her indoors for a few days? This pigeon has to be drained of energy from whatever happened. She is so weakened, she can barely fly up to the sofa.*


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Mary, you have done really well. She would certainly have died alone out there if you hadn't noticed her fall. I really hope that she makes it.

Cynthia


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Mary, if you can give water until the faeces are coming out as a clear liquid. Then you know you have flushed the system. This can take anything up to 24 hours, and is one of the reasons why you should not give food.
This treatment will cover poisoning, dehydration and heatstroke all in one go and I think may be the best course of action at the moment.
Sorry, if I keep popping up and disappearing again. I am dealing with another emergency online as well and am flitting back and forth.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
This post is the result of contact I had with Helen, a British rehabber. Here are some of the symptoms to look for in poisoning and I think she was talking about stricnine:
"Abnormal pupil dilation, pale membranes due to internal bleeding, racing heartbeat - you need a stethoscope for this, and rapid respiration among other things."


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks i will do that and hopefully she will start to feel better soon..


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Fred,

When i held her before when she was shaking i could feel her heartbeat like crazy.....i just noticed now her pupils are large...i will keep flushing her with water and see what happend.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Are you feeling ok? This has been very rough on you.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Mary, I'm back again. I see Fred has posted my Strychnine symptoms. Good old Fred. Do you recognise any of them? How is she now?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Yeah, i am fine thanks my mom and sisters are helping me and i hope everything will turn out well









Mary












> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *Mary,
> Are you feeling ok? This has been very rough on you.*


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Mary and everyone .. Ray mentioned milk as this is something I had related to him when he and Judy were trying to save the pigeon they rescued. My rehabber friend here will tube or syringe some milk as she feels this will slow down the absorption of any toxins into the system. She has lots of experience, so I have to take her word for this. Granted, milk is not something that birds should be "fed", but if Mary's bird has injested poison, it might help.

As several have said, it is very, very important to keep liquid going through this bird to try to flush everything out.

What about an insect/spider bite? Any possibility of this?

Terry Whatley

PS: Mary, hang in there .. you are doing an awesome job!


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I found a recipe for Pedalyte the one Fred suggested and it's:

2 pints boiled water
10 Tbs sugar
1 tsp Salt

Should i give her this for now or just regular water?


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Mary,
I have just rung my vet. She says, "Nothing but water if you suspect poison. Don't give anything for the system to work on, just flush it out.
Give electrolytes after about 8 hours but don't introduce food for 12 hours after the system has been flushed."
I trust her, she's excellent.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
I trust what Nooti just posted. If the vet said only water, then it's only water.
I honestly don't know what is in Pedalyte but don't use a home made recipe. You aren't going to use anything like Pedalyte anyway.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Nooti








She is in a pet carrier now and i will keep flushing her with water and see what happends....

Mary












> Originally posted by Nooti:
> *Mary,
> I have just rung my vet. She says, "Nothing but water if you suspect poison. Don't give anything for the system to work on, just flush it out.
> Give electrolytes after about 8 hours but don't introduce food for 12 hours after the system has been flushed."
> I trust her, she's excellent.*


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Ok , it's just water for now and see what happends












> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *Mary,
> I trust what Nooti just posted. If the vet said only water, then it's only water.
> I honestly don't know what is in Pedalyte but don't use a home made recipe. You aren't going to use anything like Pedalyte anyway.
> ...


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
There is a big difference between refined sugar and natural sugar. Refined sugar can be toxic and can also build up yeast cells in the system.
It depends on what the salt compound is in Pedalyte, if it can cause harm or not.
Don't use what you were planning on making.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Mary, Mary, Mary. What a breathless day you've had!

You are an awesome human being!!! At least some of these fireworks should be for you tonight!









Your little charge has all our hopes. Keep the fluids and the peace and quiet coming. The only thing left now is time...

How lucky for me to share space and time with people like you guys!










PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Mary
How is she now. Has she had any more seisures? How long since the last one?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

She looks ok, she can stand on her feet, walk around slowly and fly from pillow to pillow but i put her in the carrier so she wouldn't get too tired and scarred.
Her pupils are still large and she looks around alot but for now she is much better than before.....

Thanks everyone and i will keep you all updated!









Mary




> Originally posted by Nooti:
> *Mary
> How is she now. Has she had any more seisures? How long since the last one?*


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I think this may be important:

I gave her some water now and i noticed when picking her up that it is all swollen at her other end.....when i first found her it was like that too and now it is very large and puffy and i am thinking there must be something wrong?

Any advice on this?

Thanks

Mary


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Has she produced any faeces?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Mary,

Can't be sure but the bird may have ruptured an air sac when it did the dive off the balcony and hit the ground. Are you saying the swelling is in the vent area (the birds tail end)?

Terry Whatley


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Can you tell me exactly where this swelling is? Near the vent? or in the abdomen?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Yes it is the Vent near the tail it is large and swollen all aroung like a doughnut.

I never seen this is any bird i ever found.

She pooped 3 times since i got her and her poop was little bit dry with lots of white coating.

Mary


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Mary - take a look at this-
Strychnine Poisoning
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All animals are susceptible to strychnine poisoning, but birds are more frequently affected. Species that have died from strychnine poisoning are: rock dove, cardinal, Canada goose, dark-eyed junco, mallard duck, common grackle, blue jay and house sparrow. Following ingestion, strychnine is rapidly absorbed through all mucous membranes especially the stomach and small intestines and is rapidly eliminated by the kidney and liver.



Clinical Signs and Pathology



The clinical signs of strychnine poisoning relate to its effects on the central nervous system. The first clinical signs include uneasiness, restlessness, anxiety, muscle twitching and stiffness of the neck. The animal is in severe pain and the pupils are dilated. These signs can resemble tetanus, with an increase in spinal reflexes leading to tonic convulsions characterized by sudden contractions of all striated muscles followed by complete relaxation. 

Birds affected by strychnine poisoning can but not always exhibit feathers fluffed or held tightly against the body, ataxia, wing droop, salivation, tremors, muscle tenseness, and convulsions. Death occurs as a result of respiratory arrest. No postmortem lesions are observed with the exception of small pinpoint hemorrhages in the lungs resulting from death due to asphyxia. Rigor mortis occurs shortly after death and can persist for days. Strychnine poisoning in birds is generally accompanied by the presence of cracked corn in the digestive tract.



Diagnosis



A tentative diagnosis can be made based on clinical signs and history. However, a positive diagnosis can only be made by identifying strychnine in the stomach contents and viscera. The drug can be identified by chemical tests and microscopic identification of typical strychnine crystals.



Treatment and Control



Due to the rapid absorption and action of strychnine, treatment is impractical for wildlife, unless found immediately after ingestion. If treatment is desired, it consists of controlling the seizures with intravenous diazepam (Valium R). Once seizures are controlled, unabsorbed strychnine can be removed from the stomach by gastric lavage of tannic acid (strong tea) or potassium permanganate solutions used as chemical antidotes.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Mary - try the strong tea, instead of water. Lavage means to irrigate with large volumes of fluid, as I had already suggested using water.
Sorry, I have to go to bed. It is midnight here and I have to be up at first light with the birds. At best I will get 4 hours sleep. I wish you both well.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Ps
Don't put milk in the tea!
Or sugar! lol


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Now I'm starting to think about a prolapsed cloaca.
Mary, Do you have an avian vet in your area?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Ok, i will try that....Thanks!









Mary


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

No not in my area but alittle far...i would take her to the rehab center BUT all the pigeons i took there died and they don't seem to know what they are doing....

Mary




> Originally posted by fred2344:
> *Now I'm starting to think about a prolapsed cloaca.
> Mary, Do you have an avian vet in your area?*


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

[Now I'm starting to think about a prolapsed cloaca.]
That could have happened with the fall from the balcony.
Gotta go to bed now. I will say prayers for you and the little one.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

She just pooped now and she sprayed it all over her feathers it doesn't look like it can come out properly....ok i will give her strong tea like Nooti suggested.

Her Vent is so swollen now it's the size of a dime and i can notice a line for the opening (like this .......(-)..) that probably why she was sitting in the water outside to make it feel better...

It just seemes very swollen it that area and i don't know what to do?

Mary 

[This message has been edited by maryco (edited July 04, 2002).]


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
If there has been a cloacal collapse, the pigeon's insides have shifted downward. I don't know if that event could have caused a seizure but it may have produced a great deal of pain and that may be what you saw with the legs stiffening and the bird gasping.
A prolapsed cloaca is extremly dangerous and action has to be taken immediately to surgically correct.
If you are able to take this bird to an avian vet for diagnosis and treatment, you have to buy some KY Jelly now and immediately rub it onto the entire cloacal area to prevent the exposed internal tissues from drying.
If you aren't able to afford it and this surgery is not low cost, please take the bird to an avian vet for a diagnosis and the pigeon will have to be put to sleep if it is a prolapsed cloaca.
In either case, the bird needs to be seen.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

With all that's going on here, could this pigeon be egg bound as well?

--Ray


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thats the first thing i though because when i looked at her i noticed as if she is pushing something out so i put her in a tub with warm water to make it feel better .....but after a while she started choking and shaking and she had a siezer so i thought it might not be egg bound..



> Originally posted by raynjudy:
> *With all that's going on here, could this pigeon be egg bound as well?
> 
> --Ray*


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Fred, If she must be put to sleep i could take her to the rehab since they will do it if it is necessary...

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Please email me at [email protected] I don't see your email and I want to send you a picture of a prolapsed cloaca.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
I can't find your email. Can you send me an email at [email protected] and I will be able to send you a picture of what a prolapsed cloaca looks like.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I sent you an email so you can reply with the pic..


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Folks,
With the picture I sent to Mary, I think we were able to rule out a prolapsed cloaca.
Maybe we are now in the area of egg binding.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

When i first found her i saw the swelling in the vent and noticed a white thing inside but i thought i was imagining something so i warmed some olive oil and squeezed it with an eye dropper onto the area...i think i was suppose to do it inside or something?

Does the large eye pupils, stifness and seizers match egg binding?

Mary


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I am sure she is egg bound now since we found pieces of egg yolk looking like hard boiled eggs inside and she is trying to push...we got what we could with a blunt tweezer and some blood is coming with it..What can i use to flush the rest out?

It doesn't look like there are any hard shell pieces so far.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Yikes!

Our concern now is that this lovely pigeon who has already had such a hard day doesn't develop peritonitis (abdominal infection) from this situation and that she doesn't lose too much blood.

This is beyond my experience to really tell you anything useful other than to keep the bird warm (I know, I know it is hot) and as stress free as possible. Off to have a go at finding any reliable info to come back with.

Hopefully she will pass any remaining parts of the egg and shell. If it all comes out right away, the risk of infection will be much less.

Wow, Mary, I am tired for you ... what a day you have had and what a trooper you have been! Try to will this bird to live and regain its health .. I think you might be a person who can do this.

Terry Whatley


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi again!

Well, most of the stuff that comes up is dealing with avoiding the problem of egg binding but one suggestion from a vet list was to give the bird some calcium. Obviously, this is way to late to stop the egg binding but is supposed to help with the condition of the muscles to allow the bird to expel anything that may remain inside.

I believe it was Ray who suggested Tums in the water .. at this point, I would try to get either dissolved Tums into the bird or break off a small piece and down the hatch with it. Then let's let this wonderful bird try to calm down and get some rest. She has had a worse day than all of us put together!

Don't forget to watch for excessive bleeding. If this is happening, we've got to stop it as this will further weaken if not kill the bird.


Terry Whatley


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited July 04, 2002).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hi Mary,

We are sorry to hear that your girl is passing egg yolk. Surgery will be needed by a competent avian vet, and ASAP. That will cost you some money. If you had bayril at home give her .3 CC immediately, and another dose in twelve hours. This would hopefully stabilize her to the point that septic blood would be put off until the remaining egg fragments can be surgically removed. 

You know the options...

Judy


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I put the oil inside with a syringe and i hope she can push it out on her own....she tries very hard..i don't have baytril.. she started eating some seeds just now.. i don't know if she will make it?....









Mary


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Mary,

You have done your best at this point. That Baytril is really so important to have on hand, and Judy is talking about oral/injectable Baytril. Perhaps you could just get about 5 tablets to have on hand. I have no idea what this would cost in Canada but would be around $15.00 in the U.S. Judy could tell you what the oral/injectable would run. Anyway, that wasn't too clear .. I'm thinking that just a few Baytril tabs would be less expensive than a bottle of the liquid.

Well, I guess I will be here with you for as long as it takes. Got to drop out for a bit and feed my baby birds (gosh and my father and husband too). I have a one day old sparrow here who is struggling, so I do have to pay primo attention to it.

Will be back .. and please, let's go to the new thread.

Terry Whatley


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