# Number 300



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Picked up our 300th pigeon this morning but she is very "iffy". Husband was feeding the ferals and noticed her stumbling around. Something spooked the flock and she flew almost to the top of the parking deck but couldn't quite make it and came back down. He picked it up easily and brought her home.

It is an adult checker, 303 grams, feathers look very good. Had the "look" to its eyes - I call it square eyed when they are sick. Seems like their eyes change when they get sick. Was very, very gentle while I held her so we could get her cage and heating pad set up. Made us wonder if it could be one of our released birds but probably just too ill to care right now. Have given her the usual "arsenal" of meds and she has gone to the seed bowl a couple of times but is puffed out.

Have not named yet. Attaching a pic that he took while they were feeding. She is the checker in the foreground.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Doesn't take a practiced eye very long with that one, huh? Can't hardly hold her wings up. Poor thing but at least she's still eating.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Maggie

It may just be my view but she looks as if she is holding her tail down...is that a sign of abdominal pain? What are her poops like?

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, I have noticed the same thing. Her poops are runny, a dark green and cream color. I actually wondered about egg binding because of the way her back looks. I know it is hard to tell if they are in pain but she does not appear to be.

Maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I sure hope this one will make it, Maggie! 

Sending WARM and HEALING thoughts!

So hard to know, at first, when there is nothing real "obvious!"

Will look forward to _positive_ updates!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good luck with #300 Maggie. It's wonderful that your husband spotted the bird and was able to catch her and bring her home. The hunched back does make one think an egg is either on the way or that she is having trouble passing an egg.

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have never (yet) dealt with a case of egg binding but I remember that Mary (who is extraordinarily observant) mentioned that prior to egg-laying pigeons pass foamy poops. She also had an eggbound pigeon that everyone thought was poisoned and one of the first things that she mentioned was that its vent was clenching and unclenching.

Certainly a heat pad pain relief and calcium won't hurt whatever is causing the pain. A warm bath is supposed to help egg binding but it is also my first choice of tratement for any pain that I experience from migraine to sciatica!

BTW please excuse my poor punctuation the comma key has come off my keyboard!

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> *Had the "look" to its eyes - I call it square eyed when they are sick. Seems like their eyes change when they get sick. *
> 
> Was very, very gentle while I held her so we could get her cage and heating pad set up. Made us wonder if it could be one of our released birds but probably just too ill to care right now. Have given her the usual "arsenal" of meds and she has gone to the seed bowl a couple of times but is puffed out.
> 
> Have not named yet. Attaching a pic that he took while they were feeding. She is the checker in the foreground.


What a blessing you & hubby found this sweet pij Maggie.

There is definitely a look about their eyes when feeling a bit under the weather. 

In the picture, it also look to me as though she is off balance & leaning to the left some. 

Well, she is in good hands.  
Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Maggie, 

I hope #300 recovers from whatever is ailing her. What have you treated her with so far? Maybe the ole metronidazole would be a good medication to use on her. I know it's not a miracle drug but since I've learned more about it and seen for myself how it's worked on Eggbert, perhaps this will make her feel better. 

Eggbert had a hunched over posture when he was sick, it actually reminded me of a hen getting ready to lay. Perhaps this is the "look" of a bacterial infection or intestinal distress caused by any number of bacterial problems.

Good luck with her!


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## rialize (Dec 28, 2005)

Wow! Three hundred pigeons. Quite a milestone.

She definitely looks a little under the weather. I wish you the best of luck with your new one. I'll tell George to send a warm pijie message to her, so she can feel better soon!

Laura


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks everyone - well, she is still hanging in there. Has been eating some seed so we are holding off feeding her by hand because of stress factor. 

Giving her Bactrim, Nystatin, and Metronidazole - all spaced about 45 min apart., 2xday.

Will keep you posted. Thanks a lot.

Maggie

PS - Rialize, thank you. It is a milestone for us but I so wish it had been just a l healthy little fledgling who couldn't fly instead of a sick adult. We'll do our very best.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Maggie~ This lady checker feral is in one of the best hands I can think of. I am sure you and your husband will give 101%.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Maggie,

Three Hundered is a true testament to you and your husband's dedication to the ferals. I'm sure both fledgling and adult know they are in good hands when
brought to your home for R&R. 

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

So many birds Maggie!

That's a lot of love to share around. I had no idea you rescued so many. I noticed the tail too when I saw the photo and I'm glad someone else mentioned it because I didn't know what to make of it myself and probably would'nt have said anything. 

The arsenal of meds you mentioned. Is that a standard practice when getting an ill bird in. I will have to write it all down. I have never used any of those, Metronidazole, Nystatin or Bactrim. The Nystatin though I think is supposed to resolve yeast problems quick. Thanks for the post and pics. It was an eye opener for me as it is everytime I find out about how much all of you Matriarchs and Moderators have done for our wild friends.

Those are nice looking well fed birds too. Very nice!

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We have named her IVORY. She is still very sick but is pooping more, although they are more watery now. Gave her 10 cc. Exact last night, 15 this am and about 17 at noon and she has kept it all down. Adding Benebac to the formula. Has ACV in her water. 

Cameron, Our vet of about 11 years talked with us about 5-6 years ago about treating the very sick pigeons as they come in. So we automatically give them Bactrim, Nystatin, Metronidazole, Sulmet and Pyrantel/Strongid, although not all at one time. 

Initially, we give them the Bactrim and Nystatin and depending on their condition begin the Metronidazole. As their condition improves we treat them with the Sulmet and Pyrantel/Strongid. We don't do this for every bird. It just depends on how sick they appear to be and Ivory, right now, is very sick. We will get stool specimens to the vet tomorrow and she may change some of the meds. Right now she is too sick to treat for coccidiosis or worms.

Please note that this is not a regimen I recommend to everyone. There are many people who do not endorse this but I work very closely with our vet and as long as she and I feel it is making a difference will continue. Often, a bird's health is so compromised that you have to do everything within your power to help it.

Cameron, sometimes when you get a chance, look at the posts and threads by fred2344. He goes into great detail about many illnesses and injuries and is by far more experienced than I am. It is interesting reading.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Many Thanks Maggie, I'll go and have a look. Meantime I will want to talk to my vet about the regimen you mentioned. Windy still refuses to eat. Now she is down to nothing except what I feed her. She is on an antibiotic but I feel I am at my wits end trying to solve her problems without good results so far.

I am prepared to look at any good therapy that will work such as what you have mentioned. That is why I am asking so many questions lately. She is a cutie though, stoic as ever, a real trooper. Gets up every morning for a few flights then settles into her nest for most of the day until I get her up for a feeding. It's been a month now. I just keep waiting for that turnaround so I will know she has finally made it.

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We lost her overnight. Died sitting in her seed bowl. She kept going downhill, really fast. It is at times like this you just want to throw in the towel.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Cameron, sometimes when you get a chance, look at the posts and threads by fred2344. He goes into great detail about many illnesses and injuries and is by far more experienced than I am. It is interesting reading.


Also, Fred128, same person.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Maggie, 

I'm sorry....but you of all people know that what's important is that you tried, you gave this pigeon a hand that it wouldn't have had otherwise. The pigeon died in a warm, safe place and with food and water. That is what is important above all else. Keep you chin up Maggie.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> We lost her overnight. Died sitting in her seed bowl. She kept going downhill, really fast. It is at times like this you just want to throw in the towel.
> 
> Maggie


Maggie, I'm very sorry to hear about Ivory, and I'm sure you know that sometimes they are just too sick to respond to the efforts made to nurse them back to health. She was in your capable hands, felt the care and love that you both provided, and transitioned in a safe and warm environment. Sometimes that's all that we can do. Thanks for giving it your all.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks fp and Brad. I mentioned in another post that it doesn't matter if you have one a day or a year, or something to that effect, and its true. She remained alert until we went to bed last night but we knew it was only a matter of time. Yesterday morning, I overheard my husband talking to her. He had just come home from feeding her flock. He told her he had talked to her pals and told them we would try to have her back with them in a month or so. So sad. We spent a lot of time with her, talking to her and holding her. I know it is almost impossible but she really seemed to know us. Where he found her is only a mile or so from where we release our rescues so I guess it is possible it was one of ours which makes it doubly hard. All of our little guys just love to pile up in their seed bowls after they've been with us for awhile and that is just what she did. Other sick ferals that we have gotten in never did that. She never "complained" about anything we did - took her medicine and food and water, put up with our arranging her cage and heating pad - all in all a wonderful little bird. 

Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Maggie, 

I had one once that was going downhill pretty quickly. It was before I had learned most of the stuff that I now know. I'd take him outside on the sunny days and let him walk around the yard a bit and pick through the grass. I had a badly wounded female that had a shattered shoulder that would pick with him. He moved real slow and so did she so they were good company. When he was tired of it for the day he'd slowly walk over to me so that I'd pick him up. He was solid black so we named him "Blackie". We never had a pigeon that seemed to understand that we were trying so hard to help him like Blackie did. In his short time with us, he made a very lasting impression and we both still feel the sting when we talk about him. It's always haunting... "what more could I have done? What more should I have known?" Today, I feel like it was probably something simple like Coccidiosis and I could take care of it easily which only makes it all the more painful to remember. But, you cannot save them all and that's life. Therefore, the ones that we can save are all the more precious.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I think Pidgey said it all, Maggie! I know the feeling of remorse is a constant, especially when you rehab!

I'm so sorry Ivory died, but like others, I, too, feel you did your best! Your husband sounds like a very caring and compassionate man. You are blessed!

HUGS and HEALING THOUGHTS!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry for the loss of Ivory, Maggie. I know how you are feeling and am sending you some huge cyber hugs!

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry Maggie!

I used to be convinced that if I lost a pigeon it was completely my own fault, that there was something simple that I could have done, some medication that I could administer, which would have made all the difference.

Then I took a midly sick rescue to the vet and he told me she had malignant tumour. There was nothing that I could do but he didn't want to put her down while she had quality of life. So I gave her a couple weeks of comfort and safety before she slipped away naturally. Sometimes that is all we can do, but is so much more than nothing.


Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Maggie,

I am very sorry for your loss of Ivory and for the sense of frustration you are feeling from losing this bird, evident in your post.

I have thought about this birds death for a while and keep wondering whether administering detoxifying supplements such as Alpha Lipoic Acid, N-acetyl cysteine (NAC), milk thistle and activated charcoal would be of benefit. Is it that a bird in this situation has reached a point where their organs are just not functioning well and then when life saving meds are added it places a greater burden on the system to eliminate the various toxins and debris from the meds that are working on killing what is wrong and it proves too much for the already comprised system in terms of toxin load, in a way kind of a catch-22 situation, the bird absolutely needs the meds but the liver and other organs are maxed out. Would a bird in this condition be helped by supplementation with products that would cleans and help support elimination of toxins from the body? This is kind of what I am puzzling about right now, would adding these to support the meds with a bird on the brink help at all?

I hope you don't mind me puzzling about this outloud in this thread, I am just trying to come to a better understanding of birds on the brink.

Ron


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Lady Tarheel said:


> We lost her overnight. Died sitting in her seed bowl. She kept going downhill, really fast. It is at times like this you just want to throw in the towel.
> 
> Maggie


I think most of us can understand the frustration and woe coming from your heart Maggie, but please do not "throw in the towel." The fallen pigeons and birds that you find depend on people such as your self to try and pulll them through or at least provide them with warmth and a safe haven if passing is destined for them. 

300 rescues Maggie, think about it...that is a large number. I have only been involved with birds for about three years, and have lost a red cardinal and two ferals that passed away after the first night. All we can do is try. I still think about the 3 that I lost and they were not even attached to me, but people like you, like me, as most of us here on the forum, are here for a reason. 

Please don't get discouraged. I hope that you continue tio move forward and help our feathered ones who come to us for help. 

Maggie, you and your husband are good people. I am sorry for your loss.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I am really sorry to hear about Ivory passing away in the night Maggie. It is hard to add anything to what others have said so well already. Except to say I think you are terrific person, caring, compassionate and kind. A big hug for you today.

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ron, no, I don't mind at all your asking about this. It is something I worry about everytime we get in a pigeon as sick as Ivory was. I was not aware of natural healing products until I found this forum and I still don't know a great deal but through the forum I have started using probiotics and ACV for the pigeons we keep. The problem with rehabbing is that by the time you are able to catch a sick pigeon, especially an adult, their condition is already so compromised that many times all you can do is give them supportive care. All of their systems are shutting down and you just hope and pray that whatever medicine you give them will kick in and stop the disease. 

I totally agree that giving them the meds places a greater burden on their systems. In Ivory's case, she was already so weak from whatever disease she had that I'm not sure that anything would have helped her at that stage. She made the one attempt to fly to the top of the deck but fell back down. She was not able to walk very well and stumbled a lot, even after we got her home, and hydrated and warmed her. But, the odd thing, she remained alert and that did give us some hope for her.

I will "google" the products you listed and try to learn what they can be used for and how much to give. I am always open for advice (and, if needed, criticism) because we want SO MUCH for all of them to live. So thank you very much.

Shi, a note about my wonderful husband. He is, indeed, one in a million. Many times he has come home with a pigeon in each coat pocket, in a bag, etc. I remember one time he came home and told me to help him at the truck and I believe it was five babies/fledglings he had picked up at one time. I so enjoy watching him carry Otis and Mr. Humphries to the aviary for their day's outing. He holds them close to his face (doesn't know I'm watching) and nuzzles them all the way to the aviary. I am blessed - but so is he! With me! 

Maggie


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Thanks fp and Brad. I mentioned in another post that it doesn't matter if you have one a day or a year, or something to that effect, and its true. She remained alert until we went to bed last night but we knew it was only a matter of time. Yesterday morning, I overheard my husband talking to her. He had just come home from feeding her flock. He told her he had talked to her pals and told them we would try to have her back with them in a month or so. So sad. We spent a lot of time with her, talking to her and holding her. I know it is almost impossible but she really seemed to know us. Where he found her is only a mile or so from where we release our rescues so I guess it is possible it was one of ours which makes it doubly hard. All of our little guys just love to pile up in their seed bowls after they've been with us for awhile and that is just what she did. Other sick ferals that we have gotten in never did that. She never "complained" about anything we did - took her medicine and food and water, put up with our arranging her cage and heating pad - all in all a wonderful little bird.


Maggie, this post brought tears to my eyes......

I'm so sorry she wasn't able to recover.

Linda


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Oh Maggie..........sorry about the poor baby, BUT, and I've said this before, all you that "rescue" and "rehab" are the most special people. I just don't think I could do what you all do, it's just not in me. I get squemish just giving our birds their regular shots every year, and I have NEVER done it myself. I hold the bird and my husband does the sticking. I just can't do it, so for you to got to the lengths you go to (and the rest of you guys too), I applaud you with a standing ovation. You and people like you are what makes the world a better place. So...........don't get to far down because their is another little birdie out there just waiting for you to recue it and make it all better. CHlN UP YOUNG LADY!!!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Thanks Maggie for your reply.

The reason I brought this up Maggie is with about 12 years ago one our own birds, we keep parrots by the way, as I mentioned in another thread, got heavy metal poisoning, from lead paint from nibbling at some of the moldings in a Victoria style house we used to own. She was really quite ill with this and her prognosis for a few days was guarded. She was treated and did recover.

However, about a year later at a routine wellness check, our avian vet noticed a small black mark on her beak, their beaks are a kind of a translucent beige/white in colour, so the black mark was very easy to see. It was about the size of three periods put together. He said either she bruised her beak, or this was indicative of a poorly functioning liver. Blood tests were run and the result showed her liver functions were poor. I did ask at the time what could cause this, could it be residual damage from the poisoning she suffered last year and he said this could be a possibility, but no definite answer. There really was not much to for her in terms of drugs, but did actually prescribe milk thistle for her.

After about six weeks on the milk thistle we redid the blood work and the results were improved. This was encouraging to me so I did some research and found that alpha lipoic acid and N-acetyl cysteine NAC are very good for the liver as well, and I added these along with the milk thistle. I did not go back for quite some time after that, as she was doing well and the black mark on her beak faded away at about three months on her treatment. The next time she did have blood work done her liver values where normal and remain so to this day.

The charcoal suggestion came as a result of witnessing another parrot that was also at our vets while waiting for our appointment at one time. The people who brought this bird in while waiting said that all of a sudden their bird started showing severe neurological symptoms and they could not figure out why. Their appointment was before ours and during our appointment I inquired about the other bird, the vet suspected that the bird had chewed, bitten on, or ingested something its owners were not aware of and poisoned as a result. The other owners said they had only had the bird for 6 months and it was their first parrot.

The thing about parrots is they are kids 2-3 year old kids, they are very inquisitive and want to put their beak on and bite everything. So it's imperative that you "parrot proof your house", which we always did/do, since we were warned many years ago by the breeder of our first bird about the hidden dangers around the home, (but where unaware of the lead paint in our moldings and almost lost a bird to that).

I realize that no matter how we try to be perfect, there is always a chance that they may chew or ingest something that may bring them harm that we somehow missed protecting them from and I wanted something to aid them on hand if this were to happened. Charcoal really is remarkable at absorbing poisons and toxins of all kinds, even from e-coli. If I ever suspected poisoning, I would not hesitate to give them activated charcoal to counter any ill effects by crop needle (I would also add the milk thistle, alpha lipoic acid and NAC as well) until they could be seen by the vet, so we always have some in our bird emergency first aid kit.

So my thoughts were if we could somehow ease the toxicity load for a bird on the brink would this help them, my mind say perhaps.

Maggie, I did also wanted to say 300 rescues is really quite amazing and the difference you have made in their lives is profound. As for the ones like Ivory that you tried your very best for, the comfort, warmth, safety, and yes love you give them in their final hours is something you should feel very good about. I know I feel good knowing there are people like you out there finding these poor birds and helping them.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jazaroo, this is a remarkable post and I thank you for the information. Do you remember (your first paragraph) what your vet did to initially clear up the lead poisoning? We have had several birds with lead poisoning and it is truly horrible. I have said before that, to me, lead poisoning is the worst thing we have ever had to fight. Our vet usually x-rays the pigeons she suspects has this and you can actually see particles in their abdomen where the lead settled.

We have treated these birds with injections of calcium versinate in the muscle adjacent to their keel bone. We have also used peanut butter (to try to bind the lead to it) and even strong tea which someone told me could help. I know the vet says lead poisoning is treatable if caught in time, but, again, each of these birds were so ill with organs failing that we could never save one of them even though follow up x-rays showed the lead was gone. They get so sick, very watery stools, inability to stand or even move very much.

I am wondering now that if we get in any more with lead poisoning if your regimen might really make the difference. That is why I am wondering what your vet did initially. If we could do that, and treat them with the charcoal and other products we may be able to save the next ones.

This is one of the reasons that I love this forum. You just never know what information you can pick up. I have to tell you that I am excited to hear this and would love to learn more.

I am glad your parrot survived. They can be little devils at times, can't they?
Would love to see some pictures.

Thank you, Maggie


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Maggie,

I have no knowledge or experience in dealing with lead poisoning. I was interested though and decided to "google" it using keywords "lead poisoning birds treatment" and several links came up mentioning more or less the regimen you use. I thought you might be interested in reading the following link because it also mentions activated charcoal:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww66eiv.htm

Linda


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Maggie,

The way the poisoning first presented itself was by the bird's droppings to be quite bloody suddenly. This really sent a shock through us when it first happened. Apparently amazons with heavy metal poisoning start to have bloody droppings, the poison really affects their organs badly, their are other infections that also may cause this symptom, but if you see bloody dropping in an amazon you should immediately suspect heavy metal.

As would be the way, it was at night after the vet had closed. We called a friend who had many years experience with parrots and he came over and said he suspected poisoning and force feed our bird peanut butter with some corn meal mixed in a half dozen times through the night. I actually credit him with saving her life, my gut tells me this made the difference for her.

We arrived at the vet in the morning as they opened without calling first and they took her in and started her on a number of medications. The particular one they used for the lead poisoning was called Ca-EDTA (calcium ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid). They kept her in the hospital for two or three days and administered the Ca-EDTA by way of injection. After she started to improve, they sent her home with oral Ca-EDTA to administer for 2 weeks if I remember right. As a note, the EDTA is not a drug I would attempt to compound or do myself. It can be nephrotoxic at the wrong dosage and the amount involved in compounding this a quite small, so it would not take much to cause a fatal error.

Also, the Alpha Lipoic Acid and N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) have the ability as well to chelate heavy metals from the body. They do many other good things for the body as well, just do a Google search for ALA + lead, ALA +poisoning, ALA + toxins, ALA + heavy metal and the same for NAC.

For the birds you have now, I would advise getting them on the ALA and NAC, the good thing about these two supplements is that even at extremely high doses they prove to be relatively harmless, so I do not worry about them at the dose I give them to our birds at. Also, I think you really need to get them on CA-EDTA ASAP this is key.

Here is a picture of three of our birds enjoying a summer day, until I bothered them to take a picture.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Linda, thank you. The way that article described the symptoms is exactly what we have seen. I'm glad to hear that what we have been doing is correct but I wish we could catch it earlier. That's the thing with ferals, they won't let you catch them in the early stages of any disease.

Maggie


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ron, your parrots are absolutely beautiful. I know you love them dearly.

We don't have any pigeons right now with lead poisoning. It has been about 3-4 years since the last one but I know we will get more. I am copying all your info and will also copy all the info on the other products. 

This information gives me more confidence that maybe, just maybe, we can save the next one. Many thanks.

Maggie


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I agree Ron,

That was really informative, I've taken a copy too for future reference if I ever need it. I love the photo you posted. It must be a noisy household you have with so many Parrots.

Cameron


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