# Wildlands Sanctuary Loft Design



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey folks, I am turning to the experience and wisdom of this community to point me in the right direction for a specific loft design.

Here is the idea:

Many cities have pigeon rescues and there are unclaimed pigeons all the time that are often euthanized. Our goal would be to house these pigeons on local wildlands, grasslands and forest surrounding and outside our cities, a sanctuary of sorts.

The loft design would have to be fairly hands-off, as it will not be often that people come out and check on these pigeons.

1. pigeons should be able to come and go when they please to forage

2. loft would need ot be secure from fox, coyote, racoon and bobcats and similar critters.

So I am looking for a loft design that is cheap and easy to construct, maybe something like is used on squab farms. We probably could not afford the hobby or enthusiast level lofts which look great in backyards. The esign should be cheap, strong and secure.

Also I have another burning questions about adopting urban birds. How long after putting them in a new loft until they bond with that location and be able to leave to feed and return to their home? Will they even do this or will it require a second generation?

So, two big questions for y'all. Thanks in advance.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hard to build something that the birds could come and go from that raccoons or rats couldn't also get into. Adopting urban birds, I would think they would just fly back to where they were from. Sounds like a great thing. Just don't know how you would do it. Will they be fed at the loft? Or go out to feed? Would there be handicapped birds?


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

well, one of my big questions is if theres any way to get the rescued birds to return to their loft, maybe after some accilmation time. For example, 3 months of food and water while lockedin, then allowed to leave.

Some not sticking to their new home would I guess be ok, some loss is acceptable.

In the end, either with the first generation or by second generation, the goal is to have a naturalized breeding population of squab living on the land in shelter that we provide.

Not sure what is meant by handicapped birds?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You mentioned that these would be from city rescues that were unclaimed birds. What kind of pigeons are you talking about? Birds that were owned by someone before being rescued? Are they homers, show breeds, ferals? The reason why most of the rescued birds were rescued in the first place is probably because they had some how escaped or gotten out and couldn't figure out how to survive in the wild. That is unless they were sick or injured, and were caught because of that. Most of those birds wouldn't know how to live on their own and forage for food. They were raised by people and their needs were taken care of. I think your idea is a good one, but just don't know how you would do that. They need to be fed and watered by people. Homers would probably try to go home, and if lost the first time, may just get lost again, and fancy breeds don't have much homing instinct, and would probably get lost. Many also don't fly all that well. Depends on the breed. So I guess the question is really what breed of pigeon you are talking about.


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

I am talking about the feral pigeons that are roaming around in all the cities where I live.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Okay then, if you were to introduce them to this kind of a shelter for them, and gave food and water, as you have mentioned, then eventually I believe they would come to see this as a safe place to live. Any babies that were born there would see it as home. 

Do ferals actually end up in shelters that often? Is that where you would be getting them from?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The loft just has to be dry and protected from the elements. It should have many perches and nest boxes for them to nest in. And good ventilation. Screened with hardware cloth openings at the bottom, and a screened opening at or near the top for the fresh air to pass through. Then of course an opening for them to get in and out. But an opening for them to pass through, allows predators like raccoons to pass through also. That would be the hard part I would think. Have you checked out any ideas in our loft section?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some of the people on here are very handy. Maybe some will come in with ideas of how you could put one together. I hope so. That would be an interesting thread. I think it's a nice thing you want to do. Nice when people care that much.


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks Jay, these birds do sometimes end up at SPCA here. There are numerous programs in cities around that euthanize the birds. We are hoping to introduce some new (to our cities) and humane practices similar to what is being done in Germany and other places, provide a home to the birds and stop feeding in the streets. The differnece here is that they will be in the country.

We want to provide an alternative to euthanization of the pigeons. In turn, they will be helping us to restore disturbed ecosystems through their interaction with seed stocks and nutrient pumping of their manure. They forage outside and then do most of their pooping at home where we can collect it and apply to our systems.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

The Idea sounds good, but, a few things to consider.

Pigeons in general breed very rapidly, feral pigeons even more so than loft birds. 
Their production rate is high, but their mortality rate of young in the cities is also high. (Average 36%) 
Now, Assuming that in the first instance they do stay & settle, 
Transfering them to a "safer" enviroment & the mortality rate will go down, meaning more survivors & more food required.
Now, 
lets consider you start with 20 pairs, these 20 pairs have 2 squabs each. 
Lets assume in new circumstances mortality rate drops to 25%
The original birds will mate again soon after the first is born, 
but (for easier mathematics) lets consider they only breed once every month
And if we assume the first round will not start mating until around 4 month of age.
The attatched table shows the breeding numbers each month over a year.
(in a safe situation)
Now at some point the large increased number of birds is going to attract the attention of predators, 
especially hawks, and a much larger food supply will be needed for the birds, and the mortality rate will also inevitably rise, 
but also a lot of the birds will abandon their otherwise safe home
and probably head for the nearest town, and so the numbers in town will again increase, and youre back to square one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for your input Quazar. Interesting chart.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

The chart is by no means correct, as other factors will creep in, but it does let you see just how quickly the increase in birds takes effect.
When in a controlled loft situation, one can replace eggs etc, but left to their own devices they do tend to breed very regularly, and people seem to forget, the young (and the youngs young etc) as they get older add to the factor with continually escalating results.
As I mentioned, Obviously the more birds the harder the struggle for survival and the mortality rate will go up, but also they will spread farther afield in search of food and shelter.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Putting up something like that would be nice if monitored and populations kept down though. But birds from the area would still home back to where they came from. And they would still be back in the places where they know to find food, even if they did roost there at night. Just so many different things to think about in making something like that work.


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

I just read about a two way system for messanger pigions in WWII. The birds were trained to sleep and breed in one loft and get feed in another. This way they moved back and forth accordng to sleep or meal times. I have a feeling this is what will happen to some of th ferrals. Some will come to eat and go home. Like a soup kitchen or mission. Just watch out for drunk birds they get mean.


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

thanks all for this wonderful information.

Population increase is what we need actually, its good to see that so many can be generated in just one year. Overpopulation is not really a concern though, let me illustrate why.

The idea is that these birds will be part of a land reclamation project. Their presence on degraded land has many benefits. They harvest seeds from the seed bank, many of them may be species of plants that we want to reduce the seed bank on, such as annual grasses when we want to re-introduce perennial native grasses. They also harvest seeds from far and wide and bring their manure back home, this can be used when we plant species of plants we are trying to establish. There's more to it, but you get the idea.

Population is controlled much in the same was as it is in the ecosystem. I do doubt you are going to see such success in offspring when food stock fluctuate with the seasons. We are proposing to introduce these birds as a wild population in the wilderness, with only limited support from us such as shelter. We will only provide supplemental food/water for the first year for the transplanted birds because they will be confined in the hopes of staying. Future generations are free to come and go.

The pigeons are a single, yet important piece to an entire design for soil regeneration in degraded wilderness and farmlands. The design includes a wide set of plants and trees that feed the pigeons as well as provide yields for us humans.

Bear in mind, this is a design in progress. The work is not being done yet but I hope to start some trials this year(2012). There is really a lot more to the entire design of the project than I have illustrated here because I am not sure how interested the group here is in the subject. I could go on and on about the trees and other vegetation that will be used in conjunction with the pigeons. My vision is that pigeons quite literally might be one of the best allies we have for large scale ecosystem restoration, better at this work than any sort of technology we could come up with.

I am currently working on a loft design that would house 100 or so birds, have refillable food and water sources that are critter proof, utilize the Scottish trap for predator resistance, and also stand on stilts with a great overhang so that climbing the legs of the loft will be nigh impossible. Of course some enterprising predator will eventually drop on tho the roof, thats where the Scottish traps come in. I will post the SketchUp design in this thread when I am done with it.


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

The scottish trap is on you tube


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Why not use a native species?


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

the only native species of pigeon we had in North America are both extinct, the passenger pigeon and the dodo. At least as far as I know, would be glad to hear some more from anyone.

If you mean any other native bird, there are several reasons.

The pigeon homes, and will home up in our protective shelters. Other native birds wont do this, the native quail for example nests in bushes and their population is entirely at the control of predators.

pigeons have 1/3 of their body mass as breast muscle, which makes for good source of food for humans if needed and/or when the population has reached our set limits for the project site.

pigeons eat the seeds and berries preferentially of our target crops.

pigeons breed quickly, building large flocks in short time, which this project needs.

pigeons travel in large flocks, this is good for the system. A large flock landing in a field all at once creates a temporal and regenerative disturbance which is unlike other species who are in abundance which might spread out and overeat some things we would rather they didnt.

Does that help? Can you think of a native species that would fit our goals?


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Morning doves, grouse, pheasant. In brazil horses serve the purpose.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Do ferals actually end up in shelters that often? Is that where you would be getting them from?


These aren't 'rescues' he is talking about.....please read his other thread in its entirety.



ductape said:


> I am currently working on a loft design that would house 100 or so birds.


Okay, so.... *Ductape has no interest in creating a Sanctuary for Feral Pigeons.* This isn't a thread about loft design.

And his other thread isn't about the science of Homing.
*
His desire is to create a food farm, using Ferals as the stock.* Please read his other thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f23/f...ey-ever-home-59593-2.html?posted=1#post648394

There was something odd about these subjects from the start, as well as odd about the fact that he seemed to not be hearing what the preponderance of replies from experienced pigeon folks was suggesting.

This was a pigeon farm scheme cloaked in a sanctuary/loft/I wanna help the poor Ferals language.....breeding Ferals for the purposes of them to be eaten, and making money off of it.....


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

ductape said:


> *We are proposing to introduce these birds as a wild population in the wilderness, with only limited support from us such as shelter. *


No need to really comment on this...basically it says it right here...
_
....you are capturing and taking Ferals out of their natural urban habitat, introducing them to a new and foreign agrarian habitat with a new set of dangers, and not providing them with sufficient support to survive in that habitat. _

You know nothing of acclimation processes...nor do I suspect you really care much about that. In you previous replies on the other thread you even state that you do not care if the vast majority of transplants don't even survive or stay.

It made no sense.... if this was coming from somebody who had the desire to set up a Pigeon Sanctuary. 

But in the context of someone who wants to set up a food pigeon farm...in the cheapest and easiest way possible....what better way to get some free info than to dupe some Pigeon enthusiasts ? (although again, you basically rejected almost all of that experienced info which you didn't agree with, anyway)....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jaye said:


> These aren't 'rescues' he is talking about.....please read his other thread in its entirety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good to know...something did sound kind of off.


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey guys,

Though you may think you have me figured out, I do think there is some sort of misunderstanding. 

You say I dont care about the pigeons and I am looking for cheap stock to start, not true. It would likely cost me so much more money, time and effort to work with ferals than it would be to simply buy some stock to start with. We want to start with ferals because they are the closest thing here in the USA to the semi-domesticated stock that is in residence around the world in cities all over the Middle East and Asia. 

Make no mistake, These birds are called feral and not wild for a reason. Pigeons are the oldest domesticated animal in partnership with the human race. We domesticated and lived side by side with this wonderful creature so far back in history, that it might have been thousands of years before we accomplished domestication of any other creature. Pigeons have always been a source of food in human settlements, for thousands of years, this is the natural way of controlling their population. When you remove an animal from the pressure of predators, it is our job to play that role that would normally play out on its own. 

You may think it is more humane to swap eggs, but I bet you many people around the world would think that practice is not only silly, but irresponsible when people go hungry every day. Lets please not pass judgment on the cultural practices of others simply based upon your own preference. Pigeons have been bred over many thousands of years to feed humans, no way around that if you do your homework.

Do you eat meat? Do you eat chicken and turkey? If so, are they raised free range? If not free range I do hope you realize the hellish lives they live before making it to the table.

I am sorry if the idea of eating pigeons offends some folks and I will be very blunt here, that is not the central purpose of the proposed project. I have mentioned MANY purposes in the threads I started here, but if you read with one thing on your mind "eating pigeons" you might miss them.

Pigeons have some unique characteristics that I feel can be used to restore ecosystems in mass that have been degraded by the very food system that most of us eat from. 

I am a permaculture designer, my work is bound by the ethics of my trade. My goal with every action is to care for the earth, care for people, and return the surplus for future generations to enjoy. I do my best to create conducive for more life to exist, in every action. I am proposing here to establish flocks in the wild, provide habitat for thousands of brids and in turn they will do the work so important to pave the way for more diversity and life to follow.

I do admit I didnt mention the eating part of this up front. Yes, I do realize this one piece may be hard to swallow for some folks here. I want to say that I didnt come here to lie or deceive anyone for wrongful purposes, I just was fully aware that many folks here dont prefer to eat pigeons. I have been lurking on this forum for some time now, enough to know that.

I like to say that everything gardens and pigeons are some of the best gardeners I know. I truly revere and respect this creature, just as I revere and respect all of our brother and sister creatures that walk this earth. My work is to be, I hope, a celebration of the pigeons amazing talents and it just may, in time, change the way people see them.

Perhaps we have a slight difference in opinion of how we treat animals or maybe just certain species of animals. I am of a mind very similar to the Native Americans and truly and indigenous culture that was capable of living in a place for thousand of years and not destroying it. I see all creatures as my kin. I also see the world with eyes wide open and I know that creatures eat other creatures. There is a long term wisdom in this system, a wisdom that has created the amazing diversity our grandparents experienced (and so few of us can see today). When I take an animal to feed myself or another human, I do so with respect. And I do not discriminate between birds or any other creature, we all all kin. 

Sorry if I offended you, Jaye, or anyone else reading this.

P.S. I dont eat people


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

This is a pro pigeon site..reguardless of what you think about eating pigeons. we all know that some do, that is not the point.. this site does not help with their demise, so you are on the wrong forum.


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## hotdiggity (Feb 9, 2012)

billboards already fill this function.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I can't believe sky tx was banned and this guy is still here.


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

can i eat your dog??? NO its SICK its a pet .. how do you eat a pet ... making a breading "safe" house for pigeons ... AKA lots of baby's in easy reach of your soup pot hu? go eat stray cats ... its on the same level ... BRING SKY TX BACK!!


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

GUYS THIS GUY IS ONLY USING US to get ideas on how to catch feral pigeons and eat them.. never intended on rescuing or anything..
all he wanna do is catch them in the city's and breed them and eat them.. sell the meat..
bann this guy pleaseeeee!!!!!


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

so silly. You are totally seeing in all these threads just what you want to see. The point is not to farm pigeons, but i guess actually reading all that I wrote might be too much for you to do.

I didnt intend to fire up any crazyiness, honestly. I am confident my work will do more for the welfare of pigeons than most individuals can ever hope to. Think what you will, but the statements above are just not true, read the threads for yourself. I made one statement about culling birds that were breeding in excess of any given piece of lands carrying capacity. There are many other facets to this work, and the heroic pigeon is they key to it all.

Go ahead an ban me if you feel thats necessary , as I said in another thread this sort of narrow-mindedness is not going to be useful for me anyway. I can always create a new account name if I need to ask specific questions. And if you IP ban me I can just use a proxy so whatever.


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## hotdiggity (Feb 9, 2012)

the passenger pigeon kinda filled that niche,,it died out,probably due to canker,brought with european pigeons,,it was a more dovey species,,similar to the "band tailed pigeon"in feeding habits,but it nested in huge community rookeries,,,
its disapearance changed birdlife in north america forever.
the feral pigeon nearly fills the spot of the passenger pigeon,as a food source for raptors,and other predators,,,
i love pigeons,,
but some of em gotta be food.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Well this isn't the first time this has come up but it deserves another response.
*YOU ARE HYPOCRITES*
Do you eat meat? Where does it come from....before the store? It doesn't magically appear on the shelf you know? (Not rhetorical) 
It is sad that this even has to be talked about.
You all act as if it is morally wrong to eat pigeons yet perfectly fine to eat a chicken or cow.
Take your silly 5 year old emotions out of this and start acting like logical adults.
Or take the time to find some sort of justification for eating chickens vs meat.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

AZ...for goodness sake....do you EAT urban wildlife ????

Squirrels? Raccoons ? Crows ?

For goodness sake...NO, you don't. How in the world could you seriously even think that such a statement like yours is apropos or defensible ? Don't even TRY to digress this thread into a "carnivores hypocrisy sort of thing"

Your "rationale" is completely non-sequitir. It also illustrates a complete lack of knowledge of a slew of health and safety regulations, both at state and federal levels.

All of these things, you take for granted everytime you put a fork to your mouth. Most people do. But, seriously.....

Stick to the subject at hand, please. People ain't gonna take that bait. 

Back to the subject at hand: the intentional cloaking of plans for a Pigeon Meat Farm under the guise of "I am a good guy and I am creating a "Wildlands Sanctuary" for poor pigeons...and I need some advice".

As I stated in your other FAKE thread, ductape....there is so much insipid stupidity in your 'plan', so much ignorance in how the species actually behaves.... it defies any sort of intelligence at all.

Hotdiggety....BTW....the reason people don't farm ferals or use them for food birds is because there are so many Health and Ag codes and laws which would be violated...it would be mind-boggling.

What ductape wants to do here, and it really, really clear if you take a look at his other thread...*is create a money-making, pigeon-farming biz with the absolute least investment of time, labor, and money .*...by capturing Feral city pigeons (illegal) and then plopping 'em down on a 'farm' where he has planted 'seeding bushes' ...
"so they will have a food source".

He stated he _doesn't care if 50% or 75% or 90% of his transplants die or disappear.
_
He has stated he has no intention of providing anyone there regularly to provide food or water.

He has stated his desire that these pigeons breed as much as they can, with the intention of killing and selling the babies as meat birds. These are Ferals, mind you. Selling Feral unmanaged, unsuperintended meat.

...are you kidding me ????


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Lastly.....I have a few invitations for all:

1) I invite anyone to look up the definition of Sanctuary (this was the word _he _used). Then ask yourself...is this 'plan' a Sanctuary by any stretch of the imagination ????

Anyone who is a pigeon person darn well knows this 'experiment' (besides the immorality of it) is so contrary to actual Pigeon behaviour that it is going to fail quite terribly, and if ever vaguely implemented, will result in the deaths of a lotta Ferals.

Is that a Sanctuary ?

It is a Farm.

But NOT EVEN. Because anyone who knows anything about health and agricultural laws in CA knows that any food farm requires a *massive commitment of money and infrastructure to comply* with the plethora of health and safety codes regarding food sourcing.

Pigeon farms are regulated like all other food farms....this foolish notion does not even begin to scratch the surface of anyone who has seriously even begun to consider the breadth of the endeavor. It is as half-baked as ductapes false pretense for gathering information here. Which leads me to my next invitation:

2) Again, I invite everyone to read, and re-read, and re-read...his posts. And ask yourselves if this person's intent is in any way for the sake of Pigeon welfare whatsoever. 

Then.... ask yourselves if this 'experiment' or 'plan' is at all reality-based ?
Is it based on solid Pigeon-knowledge ? 
Is it based on solid food industry knowledge ? 

Do his replies give the impression of an individual who has respectfully come to ask fanciers (with MUCH MORE experience and knowledge than he possesses) for their input ?

...OR...

...do his replies seem more like someone who asks a question, wanting a particular answer...and when that person fails to elicit the answer they want (from people far more experienced and knowledgeable than himself), the person decides to either argue that his position is correct, or ignore/dismiss others' (more informed) replies as having no basis in reality ?

Once more...his other thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f23/ferals-pigeons-will-they-ever-home-59593.html

Hotdiggety..."I love pigeons, but some of 'em gotta get eaten"....is not the subject at hand. This isn't a debate about carnivorism, again. It is about something entirely different.

3) Finally, ask yourselves whether this person is an honest person ? 

Take a good look at how these threads were initiated.
How this person represented himself.

He couldn't even just honestly come out and say what he was up to, from the start. He misrepresented himself, his idea, and his desires.....and he did so completely intentionally.

I don't even need to illustrate it...it is all right there in his own posts.


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Jaye, you have gleaned what you want from my writings to suit your own rabid notions. You keep taking what I say out of context, repeatedly, to suit your argument. I could take the time and respond to each color-coded line above but theres not much point, you have gone over the edge and will hear no reason while you ride out on your witch-hunt.

I design ecological systems for the benefit of all life. My livelihood is as a permaculture designer and teacher. Look up permaculture and see what it is. Not only is that what I do, but I am well respected in my line of work.

BTW, you keep mentioning all these federal regulations I plan to violate, yet you dont even really get what I am going to do, nor do I think you know what you ae talking about. Feral pigeons HAVE been used to start farms, but as I said before I AM NOT STARTING A FARM! Never said that. I merely said that instead of swapping eggs for dummies we would cull the birds for food. From that point, you went all frothy in the mouth.

The pigeons play a much bigger role in my designed system than food. You yourself read it all and were working with the idea. As soon as you read I would cull pigeons, what, you throw all that out as if I never wrote any of it? I guess its much easier for you to ignore all that.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

You say you are well respected in your line of work, at this point I think you will have to tell us who you are and how to look up what you do if you want to change any opinions about you.
Dave


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

My responses to you are in bold within your quote.
I feel a need to do it this way to get a handle on your illogical ranting.



Jaye said:


> AZ...for goodness sake....do you EAT urban wildlife ????
> 
> Squirrels? Raccoons ? Crows ?
> *No I don't, in fact I eat no animal or animal products.*
> ...


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

ductape said:


> Jaye, you have gleaned what you want from my writings to suit your own rabid notions. You keep taking what I say out of context, repeatedly, to suit your argument. I could take the time and respond to each color-coded line above but theres not much point, you have gone over the edge and will hear no reason while you ride out on your witch-hunt.
> 
> I design ecological systems for the benefit of all life. My livelihood is as a permaculture designer and teacher. Look up permaculture and see what it is. Not only is that what I do, but I am well respected in my line of work.
> 
> ...


You know what the ironic thing is? Or maybe just sad?
In Jayes view of things and others here it is perfectly okay to race homers which means losing many. I have heard of people loosing 40 birds or more. See though that is okay because it was for sport or fun. 
But eat a pigeon to survive (or for whatever reason doesn't matter) is a big no no?... 
It all boils down to one thing, emotions.


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

I guess the racers are acceptable loss because thats the nature of the sport.

But when it comes to new and novel ways to use animal partners to restore degraded ecosystems, thats just evil. Did you know that pigeons could possibly be one of the most amazing animals for ecosystem restoration?

By the way, thats what I am doing with the pigeons, but Jaye wants you to think I am farming them for CRAZY PROFITZ!

Whatever.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

jaye, I agree that ductape lied and it wasn't good. I don't agree with federal and state health regulations, that is a joke. Plenty of people grow there own food with no government oversite. They also eat chicken eggs too that aren't certified! It's makes me sick. Why is it that I'm a vegan and eating pigeons doesn't make me sick but people who will eat a pig get sick from people eating pigeons???? I'm not defending his actions of lying or his choice of food. But if people are going to get upset at him for choosing pigeons as food and your not a vegan i have something's to say. 

*What do you eat and where does it come from? Do you buy meat? Did you see where it came from? Of every time you buy meat or dairy how often have you seen the farm they come from?*

*Are you are trying is defend why you think pigeon eating is wrong but eating other meats are okay. Honestly, would you like to see squab and the place you buy food? Is chicken Brests okay? * 

_Correct me if I'm wrong but you probably eat chickens, but you find eating a pigeon disgusting even when served at 5 star restaurant._

I wonder why the BYC forum with all those people who love there chickens just as much as pigeon people love pigeons do not have this problem.


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## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

In my defense, I didnt lie. I did veil the fact that I would not be switching dummy eggs but rather I would eat the overpopulation. I simply didnt bring it up because I thought that this ugly stuff would happen, sure enough it did.

If anything, more fabrication is in Jaye's posts than mine. He makes accusations cut from whole cloth. 

In no way did I come here looking for information on how to start a farm. This is an ecosystem restoration project that involves pigeos as the keystone species along with many specially selected plants and trees. The pigeons play a vital role in speeding up the generation of biomass, reducing seed banks in the soil, etc.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Well my advice to you is join the back yard chicken forum.
Of course it is mainly about chickens. but there is a pigeons section.
I don't believe they have any problems eating animals over there.

FWIW I don't agree with what your doing and honestly don't think your plan, at least at this point would work.

My reasons for disagreement (if you or anyone cares...) is obviously not because of the birds. It is because meat is not the best things for us to eat.
But that is neither here nor there.

Honestly the only reason I came in here is to call people on their hypercritical worldviews which are clearly found on nothing more than personal belief and strong emotional connections to animals (Not that having a connection to animals is wrong, we just need to be logical and uniform in the way we view things).


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

I don't care about the minor issue of squabbling. I'm interested in permaculture. I'm from wv and land reclamation is a big deal after a coal mine finishes stripping an area. It involves planting flora that will improve and attempt to return the land to a reasonable semblance of its pre-mine state. Blackberry bushes are a useful tool because the attract birds and animals. Vetch improves the soil, provides forage and habitat. Poplar trees take up toxins in the soil and break them down. As I said earlier Brazil using grazing animals to spread isolated stands of rain Forrest. The nuts from the trees and the shade attract the animals and concentrate their droppings thus reclaiming the soil in a very natural way. BTW horses were native to brazil in the ice age.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> This is a pro pigeon site..reguardless of what you think about eating pigeons. we all know that some do, that is not the point.. this site does not help with their demise, so you are on the wrong forum.


.........................................................


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

This whole topic (and the other connected post) is verging on the ridiculous.

Ductape, YOU were the one that initially brought out the topic about the "Farming" .
OK so some of us jumped on it as an underlying agenda, irrespectively, it is not something that you sould expect folk on a pro pigeon site to accept, or indeed welcome.
As for your idea, as I said in the other post, it is something that would need a great deal of thought. While I see where you are coming from, you are in fact trying to change the whole eco system which could have disasterous effects on the areas involved. 
One only needs to look at introductions of certain types fish to some Brazillian rivers to "control" other species population. These introductions initially worked, but then overrun themselves, and "adapted" themselves to survive by attacking & eating anything it found in the rivers. (inculding humans)
I'm not trying to compare pigeons to fish, just the situation needs to be thought out VERY carefully. 

AZCorbin, Mankind has been eating meat since he first evolved on this planet.
Like nearly anything in this world, to much of anything without a properly balanced diet is can lead to other disorders, but it is not predominantly BAD for you.
Whether anyone is or is not vegetarian is really of no consequence to this topic.
As to one growing/farming their own food, authorities normally have no problem with that, but when one expands to produce for sale to others, they have to intervene to make sure that it is "safe" and upholds to standards they have set for human consumption.
As far as racing birds go, my view is simple, 
its just another way that man can show off to his fellow men by exploiting animals.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I really do not even get the point, there are plenty of feral pigeons as it is..why breed more?, If it is for food, it sounds like allot of trouble when you can just raise some backyard chickens or rabbits or something.. the whole plan sounds stupid IMO.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> You say you are well respected in your line of work, at this point I think you will have to tell us who you are and how to look up what you do if you want to change any opinions about you.
> Dave


I'm still waiting to see who this person is and how respected he is. What university or federal agency do you work for?
Dave


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

he ownes a Chinese restaurant


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Wonder whats on the menu


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Cut the guy some slack, I would like to see if what he says is true. 
Dave


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> Cut the guy some slack, I would like to see if what he says is true.
> Dave


I agree, but even if the intentional outcome of his plans/ideas are ecologicaly motivated etc, there is a lot more depth to be looked into, more than just the pigeons themselves. They are not NORMALLY "country" birds, and do depend a on our human food wasteage. 
As everyone from the US keeps saying, they are NOT NATIVE and 100% descended from escaped captive birds, so its not like they are going to be instantly adaptable to any new enviroment.
And transferring one species to a totally new eviroment, however good the intention, leads to other issues with other species.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I agree, I would just like to know a little more about the guy and where he plans on doing this.
Dave


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

This is not an illegitimate request to make, Pete. And I think Quazar would agree it isn't an unfair comment.

Just keep in mind that at this point, what we have had here is a gentleman who has misrepresented his intent in order to gather information.

Then, when that information and response from more experienced Pigeon People comes in and suggests that this 'plan' will not work and runs contrary to actual Pigeon behaviour....the original poster either dismisses, ridicules, or demands immediate scientific proof of the more experienced member's claims...because they happen to run contrary to his desires.

Beyond this, if you examine both threads, the original poster then relies on an anthropomorphising of Pigeon behaviour based upon his own casual observation...to argue against the advice having been put forth by people with decades and decades more knowledge and experience than himself.

He also sets up tons of "straw man" arguments in an attempt to diminish the apt replies he has received.

This isn't intended to trash anyone....I am just observing what has transpired so far....

In a situation where live Ferals are the subject, I am concerned about what appears to be a certain insistence about being right, in a situation where response has indicated the contrary. I have some issues with demanding all respondents to act a certain way, and crying foul.... when the original poster appears to be OK with playing on a different field when it comes to communication....

Any chat forum can always get ugly now and again...any topic can go off the rails....the point and challenge is to separate validity and germaine responses from the non-sequitir and digressive ones. (Your comments, BTW, although not my personal favorites here - because IMHO, how many chances do you give a disingenuous individual ?)....fall squarely into the former...not the latter).


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Maybe he could use free range poodles.

Just a thought;-)


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Why is this thread still here.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Why is everyone so interested in this guy?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Why is this thread still here.




Well to be critical, the moderators are not always the most active members... 5 out of the 10 hardly if ever visit the site. That's being modest saying we have 5 active moderators activaly checking threads. I would really say we only have one or two.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree with Jaye, the way things were put originally was from someone obviously knowing nothing about pigeon behaviour, especially feral pigeon behaviour.
They obviously had "ideas", which although some of us have reservations about them, no one is entirely dismissing as to whether they could be possible or not.
When comments & suggestions have been made that the OP has obviously considered (or considering the OP's position *SHOULD* have considered)
they then change the goal posts of the outcome so to speak, by intimating exactly what they intend to do which is NOT really in the birds best interest, but IS in the interest of THEIR project.
Like so many other ideas in this world, where one has a goal they want to achieve, they are blind to what detremental effects it could cause, and only see their idea as good.
I find it hard to believe that someone in such a position could neglect to see or take into account these effects, and to use squabs as food as a byproduct of the project to regulate numbers is just crazy, and would actually just be the unnessesary slaughter of birds for no reason except to keep numbers down (seriously, when numbers reach that high, whose going to eat them all ?)


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Permaculture I can't possibly see how a pigeon could be used for this, that is why I wanted to know who he is and where he was planing to do this.
Dave


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Why is this thread still here.


Because some are still debating on it, and post valid issues,
Others just want to argue in it,
some want to post "witty" comments
and

its a forum  



Print Tippler said:


> Well to be critical, the moderators are not always the most active members... 5 out of the 10 hardly if ever visit the site. That's being modest saying we have 5 active moderators activaly checking threads. I would really say we only have one or two.


Does it need to be moderated ?
I'd say its still a civil conversation so - no

While the mods may not be actively checking ALL threads, I'm sure they see those that they are needed in, and act accordingly when needed.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

just some reading for this subject, seems one can use the animals in many ways and not just for eating. 

"However not all permaculture sites keep animals for meat, eggs or milk. Sometimes animals function as pets or are treated as co-habitats and co-workers of the site, eating foods normally unpalatable to people such as slugs and termites, being an integral part of the pest management by eating some pests, supplying fertilizer through their droppings and controlling some weed species.

Other projects avoid the use of domesticated animals altogether.[19] Vegan permaculture (also known as veganic permaculture, veganiculture or vegaculture) is essentially the same as permaculture except for the addition of "Animal Care" as a fourth core value alongside "Earth Care, People Care and Fair Share."[20] Zalan Glen, a raw vegan, proposes that vegaculture should emerge out of permaculture in the same way veganism split from vegetarianism in the 1940s"


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## xaunagro (Feb 24, 2012)

crazy town ! I just joined and this is the first thing I stumble into? Just cant seem to get away from all the drama in life.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> just some reading for this subject, seems one can use the animals in many ways and not just for eating.
> 
> "However not all permaculture sites keep animals for meat, eggs or milk. Sometimes animals function as pets or are treated as co-habitats and co-workers of the site, eating foods normally unpalatable to people such as slugs and termites, being an integral part of the pest management by eating some pests, supplying fertilizer through their droppings and controlling some weed species.


I agree, the "theory" and "ideas" sound good, If ALL aspects & considerations of outcome (good & bad) are taken into account.
In an ideal situation, there would be no "bad" effects, but one should try to minimise them as they can quickly get out of hand & be nearly impossible to rectify once that happens.

(incidently, for those that dont know, pigeons dont eat slugs or termites....
but may adapt to do so if nessesity persisted lol)


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Quazar said:


> I agree, the "theory" and "ideas" sound good, If ALL aspects & considerations of outcome (good & bad) are taken into account.
> In an ideal situation, there would be no "bad" effects, but one should try to minimise them as they can quickly get out of hand & be nearly impossible to rectify once that happens.
> 
> (incidently, for those that dont know, pigeons dont eat slugs or termites....
> but may adapt to do so if nessesity persisted lol)


I saw that, I think chickens/ guineas would be suited for this idea.. oh the things mine find and scraf down...lol.. another reason pigeons would be just a bad choice., but perhpaps only for seed dispersal from their droppings...but wild birds can do this fine.


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Native species, like turkeys, can be hatched in mass for release because they don't need parental care like pigeons. It is easy to make up for predation with numbers released. Having land teeming with grouse, quail, turkeys, etc. would increase its value in many ways and avoid the stigma of feral pigeons that can range great distances. I've never seen advertisements for turkey removal services.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

xaunagro said:


> crazy town ! I just joined and this is the first thing I stumble into? Just cant seem to get away from all the drama in life.


 That was unfortunate !!!! But do stick around....this isn't the norm, for the most part.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Wayne Johnson said:


> Maybe he could use free range poodles.
> 
> Just a thought;-)


Chihuahuas are big in the Bay Area these days....they are the new Pits of the '10's.....


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