# This can't be canker, so what is it????



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The white pigeon that I found the other day is getting worse by the minute.

I didn't see any canker when she arrived but I treated her with Spartrix anyway as there was another pigeon in the flock that had it.

When I took her to the vet he saw a tiny dot of canker on ther top of her mouth. I assumed that I had missed it and continued the course. But the "canker" continued to grow.

I added metronidazole, and still it grows, covering the top palate much like it did in Little Lulu's case.

When I looked inside her mouth I could see a black dot in the trachea. Could she have inhaled a small seed and it stuck there? I tried to ease it out, but didn't want to make matters worse, but I will have another go.

Despite the antibiotic eye drops her "conjunctivitis" has got worse, now both eyes are streaming.

I found one of my own aureomycin tablets which I am considering giving her, but I don't know the strength and the vet also said that if it was chlamydia then the aureomycin would work. And it hasn't.

The vet is unavailable until Monday and, to be honest, none of the vets at that surgery have the hands on experience that people in this forum have. The one that I trust most admits he is going to consult his book (Pidgey's big book?), the other bluffs and didn't even recognise a ruptured crop when I specifically pointed to it. The other vets won't see pigeons.

Could it be circovirus? Aspergillosis? I have no hands on experience of either of those so I am at a loss.

John and I are driving over to Karen's to rehome a white pigeon a white pigeon as a companion for her lonely Peggy, so I won't be able to log on until we get back.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Update*

I bought some cotton buds to wipe her mouth out with and found that the "canker" was actually dried exudate that had caked the top and the sides of her mouth. It peeled off without bleeding. But there aresigns of something in her throat.

I also wiped up something small and black from her throat, but it is soft, therefore not a seed. So that answers the canker question but I am none the wiser about what is wrong with her.

I also decided to leave whatever is visible in her trachea alone until the vet can deal with it.

She doesn't have diarrhea, just green droppings and yellowish urates.


Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Cynthia,

Sorry to hear this little one is not improving. It was a little unclear what you meant by this statement:



> I found one of my own aureomycin tablets which I am considering giving her, but I don't know the strength and the vet also said that if it was chlamydia then the aureomycin would work. And it hasn't.


In the beginning you say you were thinking of giving the med to her, but you didn't know the strength. Then you say it should work and hasn't. Did you give her some of the aureomycin?

There doesn't seem to be a wealth of information on aureomycin, seems it mostly comes in bulk for animal, most references are avian, treatment. I did find a few references though and it seems that 100 mg is what it generally comes as. Hoffman-La Roche makes a Aureomycin 100 pill and I am providing a link for treatment dose, the reference is for Cockatiels, but the dosage can easily be extrapolated for larger birds, as the average weight of a Cockatiel is 100 grams. This is an online except from a book an keeping Cockatiels.

http://tinyurl.com/2nljxf

I hope this helps a little and good luck with her.

Ron


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI CYNTHIA, It could be PIGEON POX, which can get into the beak when this happens it is commonly called wet pox.In any event it a viral infection and can not be treated with antibiotics. If it is pox it will effect the bird for 3 to 4 weeks. This bird should be isolated from any other birds and not allowed to bath as that can spred the viruse.Having said all this I must say that pox is a warm weather type disease, and its winter time in ENGLAND. .GEORGE


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Cynthia,

Please be very careful with this bird for your sake. This could very well be a case of chlamydia. There is no wall between the eyes and the sinus cavities so this is most likely a respiratory infection. The stuff you see in the mouth is probably pus and other debris from the sinuses. The yellow you see in the droppings means there is liver implication.

Aureomycin is too weak a drug for this. Stop the Metronadazole. Find a vet who will give the bird an injection of Doxycycline on a weekly basis. The normal run for this drug when used for chlamydia is 6 weeks.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry Ron, I forgot a link there.

The vet said that she had conjunctivitis and prescribed Aureomycyn ophthalmic ointment. Then he said that he suspected chlamydia and in view of my lungs advised me to be careful. Then he said that he could test for chlamydia but it was expensive and he usually treated on the probability. I asked if he could prescribe a course of antibiotics and he said the ophthalmic lotion was an antibiotic. I was baffled and had to wait until I could check the internet to see if this was a form of administering this particular antibiotic. It isn't.

When I was hospitalised I was prescribed aureomycyn as the doctor thought I might have chlamydia psitacci. I took the antibiotics into hospital with me and didn't get them back, but found two tablets that John had placed in my pill dispenser. As I no longer had the packet I didn't know the strength. Since then I have been to visit Karen in Northamptonshire and she has supplied me with the powdered form used for pigeons.

George, I hate and fear pigeon pox because my darling wood pigeon Micklewood died of internal and external pox. I was devastated as it took its deadly course, so I hope that it is not that.

Pigeon Person,

We are a very small city with only a few veterinary surgeries. The one large practice won't treat pigeons or any birds. The smaller ones (which include my surgery, a two partner small animal practice) only keep a limited supply of drugs, usually I have to wait two days for anything other than Baytril and Synulox.

There was an avian vet working for a practice some twenty miles away but she left. They now have a sort of avian "expert" but she is part time and last time I had to wait a week to see her. The birds that they deal with mainly are game birds, so I have a feeling they would destroy rather than treat any of those that contracted chlamydia, but I gess they might have some parrot patients. They are in a very small market town and would have a very limited pharmacy. The problem is that vets who have valuable "patients" are not enthusiastic about having extremely sick pigeons in their surgeries. 

The one avian vet I know (because he worked in the surgery I use and treated ferals) , based in London now , asks for ferals to be quarantined for 10 days before they are brought to his practice. And he is someone that cares about them.

I have found that I can order doxycycline on-line for the treatment of acne without a prescription, but this would be human strength tablets. http://www.inhousepharmacy.co.uk/skin-care/doxycycline-acne.html?PHPSESSID=fc..., but that would not arrive until Wednesday. I have made an appointment to see my vet on Monday and was thinking of asking him for a prescription that I can have filled at the local pharmacy. But I want to do what I can for her before then as I fear she could die in the meantime.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Tetracyclines and calcium.*

I have just been researching Doxycycline and came across this statement: *A calcium supplement should be added to the diet or available in the cage at all times, since tetracycline binds with this mineral which may cause a calcium deficiency. *

http://www.parrottalk.com/chamydia-psittaci.htm

I had always understood that we had to avoid giving calcium as the binding affected the effectiveness of the drug.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Cynthia,
Baytril hits chlamydia although it isn't as effective as doxycycline so if you have any, use that.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Pigeon Person, I have that and will use it.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Of course calcium binds with any tetracycline rendering the drug ineffective. It also binds Baytril.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I have just been researching Doxycycline and came across this statement: *A calcium supplement should be added to the diet or available in the cage at all times, since tetracycline binds with this mineral which may cause a calcium deficiency. *
> 
> http://www.parrottalk.com/chamydia-psittaci.htm
> 
> ...


It's right up @ Baytril's site not to use products w/calcium w/the drug as it will bind w/the medication and diminish efficacy. Maybe they meant after treatment to provide calcium  ?? Go figure.

fp


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Cynthia,

Thanks for the clarification.

The information you linked on calcium seems to conflict with what I have always understood about calcium and Baytril (Cipro) and tetracyclines. That their use should be restricted or at least given hours apart while on these meds.

http://tinyurl.com/259dor There is a reference on Chlortetracycline (aureomycin). 

Cynthia, if you find that the Baytril is not having the effect you wish, I would start using the aureomycin you have until you can get the Doxycycline. Do you have dosing instructions on the form you received from Karen? Also, Baytril and tetracyclines can be given at the same time.

All the best and good luck,

Ron


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

jazaroo,
Using both now....That's a good idea.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Cynthia, I know you are doing everything possible for this bird. Sure hope you see some improvement soon! Take good care of yourself!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In the formulary in The Big Book, it gives two levels for Doxycycline--some with and some without grit.

Pigeons
Oral (with grit) 
7.5 mg/kg QID
25 mg/kg BID
150 mg/kg SID

Oral (without grit) 
3 mg/kg QID
7.5 mg/kg BID
25 mg/kg SID


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The pigeon is in the intensive sare tank still, and still looking ill, but her mouth is clear.

Karen had two half used tubs with aureomycin in, so she gave me one with the instructions.

As for the tetracyclines, I think I remember that whe humans are prescribed them they are warned about drinking milk at the same time. The problem is that if there is a glaring error in a website then I don't know what else is incorrect.

Sadly today there was another dead pigeon on the green. It makes me wonder how many die in their roosts during the night. This one did not have any sign of illness or injury that I could see, RM had set in so I couldn't check his mouth. He was lying on his back with a twig in his mouth so whatever it was must have been sudden. He was under the tree that holds the nest that the very delicate fantails come from (like Serenity and Wennity). When I looked up I saw a hen and fully feathered chick looking doen at me. So they are still breeding. I am feeding that flock a lot of barley in the hope of reducing the breeding and the size of the flock. This has always been a small but very unhealthy flock which is why I had sick pigeons in every room of the house at times.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cynthia,

I'm sorry to hear you found another dead pigeon, poor thing.

I hope the white pigeon is now on the road to recovery and is doing much better soon, you are doing everything for her, I'm sure.

Please don't forget to take good care of yourself too.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Please don't forget to take good care of yourself too.


As you probably know it is difficult to remember the mask at all times, specially when you are just taking a quick look at a sick one. But I am getting better at that know. So much so that I often forget to take it off!

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> As you probably know it is difficult to remember the mask at all times, specially when you are just taking a quick look at a sick one. But I am getting better at that know. So much so that I often forget to take it off!
> Cynthia


LOL, I have gone numerous times out to the coop and hold my breath, and run back out with whatever I forgot to pick up. 

Then when I do wear the mask, I hide from my neighbors if they are outside, as I run back and forth from the coop to house. It's so ugly.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On times when I've gotten a dose of pigeon dust, I use Benadryl to cut down on the allergic effects. Actually, when I've awakened in the middle of the night with the acute breathing problems, I've always taken a couple of Benadryl (50 mg total--I'm 100 kg) and a Sudafed (a pseudoephedrine) and that shuts the problem down within a half-hour. Between that and the mask usage, I haven't had a problem in quite awhile.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I don't know why I didn't realise that the "canker" was probably respiratory exudate immediately because my "Coughs & Colds: Croaks and Canker" shows photos of 5 conditions that can be confused with canker. These are:


The white coating of parts of the mouth that developes in some birds with crop problems.

Cancerous throat tumour.

Pox lesions of the mouth (flatter than canker because they fill the crater of a burst blister)

Dried respiratory exudate, the condition most often confused with canker.

Fungal lesion of the throat.

Yeast lesion (this one is under the tongue).


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> *Sadly today there was another dead pigeon on the green.*
> Cynthia


I'm so sorry, Cynthia, to hear of your recent discovery.  

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The other day a friend called round and said that she would like to hold a pigeon as she had never done that before. I let her hold this little darling because she is so gentle and tame. I let my friend name her so from now on she is Beatriz.

Beatriz just sat on her hand, looking sat her with her big brown eyes. I think that she made pigeon holding a pleasant experience.

Beatriz is still ill, the mucus accumulates in the slot in the top of her mouth and I have to clean her with a cotton bud. She is still on antibiotics.

For a while I thought that she was blind but tonight I watched picking safflower out of her food with great precision.

I don't think I will be releasing this one, she is too fond of her creature comforts and chose to spend today sitting on a towel that was draped over the radiator in the cloakroom.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Cynthia,
It sounds like your friend's 'first time at holding a pigeon' was a wonderful experience.  

Sending 'special thoughts' that Beatriz (love the name) makes a full recovery. So glad to her she was picking up seeds seemingly with full sight.  

Cindy


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, love the name Beatriz!

Sure hope all goes well with her and am sending

WARM HUGS and COMFORTING THOUGHS!!


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re calcium and doxycycline and chelation*

Hello Ron and Cynthia,

I have been rummaging around the web looking for info on chelation, antbiotics, calcium, et cetera, to better understand it for furure use. It is late here now, so I will be brief. 

You may already know all this stuff anyway; if so, don't mind my re-hashing it. Don't want to step on any toes. Just like to read info presented in several different ways, so it sinks in. 

Shortened quote:



> Hi Cynthia ...
> 
> The information you linked on calcium seems to conflict with what I have always understood about calcium and Baytril (Cipro) and tetracyclines. That their use should be restricted or at least given hours apart while on these meds.
> 
> ...


I verified that the weblink Cynthia quoted

http://www.parrottalk.com/chamydia-psittaci.htm

Chlamydia Psittaci, (Parrot Fever) Infection in Companion Birds, 
By *Dr. Thomas Tully, Jr.*, 
Louisiana State University School of Veterinary Medicine, Baton Rouge, LA 70803 

did inded say that 

... If you have to treat birds, doxycycline, a fifth generation tetracycline, is the drug of choice. Doxycycline or tetracycline derivatives may be administered in seed, pellets, orally or by injections. *All treatments must be for 45 days.* The long treatment period is required because the intracellular lifecycle of the organism makes it difficult to treat. If the treatment is not followed for 45 days, the bird may get better, but probably will become a carrier and shed the organism to other birds and become ill again. ...

and 

A calcium supplement should be added to the diet or available in the cage at all times, since tetracycline binds with this mineral which may cause a calcium deficiency. 

and

When medicated feed and pellets are used in the treatment regimen, they should be the only food item offered to ensure that the bird will receive the appropriate amount of medication. Oral dosing of medication must be done twice a day.

And,* the USDA website below on doxycycline *(focus is dealing with anthrax) has this to say: 

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/penG_doxy/QA_doxy.htm

U.S.D.A. Food and Drug Administration
Questions and Answers for Consumers on Doxycycline 

excerpts:

Doxycycline is an antibiotic medicine belonging to the class called "tetracyclines." 

-----
Tetracycline antibiotics are associated with permanent tooth discoloration in children. If used for long periods, they may also slow down the growth of teeth and bones in babies born prematurely. ...

-------
... Some medicines that can interact with doxycycline are antacids and supplements that contain calcium, iron, magnesium, or sodium bicarbonate.* If you take products containing these minerals within 2 hours of the time you take doxycycline, these medicines could decrease the doxycycline’s effectiveness.* 

*The article is dealing with humans, and I don't know if it would differ for birds. *

So, what I gather from this, and other stuff I read, and I may be wrong, so don't mind being corrected, is that

Dr. Tully refers to administering the medicine in several different ways: in seed, pellets, orally, injection. Since there are so many ways to administer it, it seems to me the instructions he gives are rather short, and this tells me that he probably intends the info for vets, since the antibiotic is probably to be considered a prescription drug, and that the end user, if a layman, will need and seek additional info from a vet. 

I think most vet and animal care articles assume that

-- (1) the caregiver of a sick animal has the money to spend on med care since he has few pets; 

-- (2) if the patient is not a pet, then a commercial enterprise is involved, and likewise money dedicated for med care; 

-- (3) if he patient is not a pet or from a commercial enterprise, but from nature, the wild, then money for its welfare has been set aside by society and government. 

-- (4) if the patient does not fit into the above, then it is a pest, and who cares. 

I think one basis, one of the reasons for the existence of PT, is the fact that feral pigeons and found pigeons are not cared for by society, and provisions for their welfare, even if known or understood, have not been made. So we are left with lay people, usually untrained and usually ill-informed, without appropriate financial support, trying to provide expert and timely care without the full benefit of attending veterinary treatment and medicines in affordable amounts. 

Calcium is needed by the body in fighting infections, and is so essential that storage has been provided in the bones of the skeleton. 

Dr. Tully states that the doxycycline needs to be administered for 45 days. Thats a long time to deprive a pigeon's body of fluctuating calcium requirements (and other interrelated minerals). I've read that a female pigeon can be so deprived of calcium and related bone density loss after egg-laying, (and also muscle weakness?) that she cannot fly. 

It seems to me that Dr. Tully expects the admistrator of the doxycycline (the owner of the parrot) to be appropriately informed by the vet as to when to administer the calcium, and how much, depending on the method of delivery. 

The U.S.D.A. web page says don't take calcium and the other listed minerals less than two hours before or two hours after taking the doxycycline (or other antibiotcs in the tetracycline family). 

Which seems to be what I remember my doc once told me about tetracycline: wait 2 hours before and after eating before taking it. 

For those who don't know what this is all about, it is about calcium binding to the antibiotic and rendering it less effective. This process is called *chelation*.

From wikipedia: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelate 

Chelation (from Greek ????, chelè, meaning claw) is the process of reversible binding (complexation) of a ligand - the chelant, chelator, chelating agent, sequestering agent, or complexing agent - to a metal ion, forming a metal complex, the chelate. The term is generally reserved for complexes in which the metal ion is bound to two or more atoms of the chelating agent, although the bonds may be any combination of coordination or ionic bonds. 

So, plants can use chelation to absorb certain metals or minerals from the soil to be used in their growth. 

If a person absorbs to much of a heavy metal such as cadmium, lead, mercury, radioactive elements such as uranium, or too much of less harmful metals such as iron or copper or calcium, there are products made to bind to these metals to help remove them from the body.

There are other commercial uses for chelating agents: rust removal from fabrics, clean-up of chemical spills, and the list goes on. 

There. I wasn't brief, but I think I understand it better now. Writing always helps one learn. 

Now the trick is to remember it past noon tomorrow.

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for doing all that reserach, Larry!

She is still getting Baytril, because she could be suffering from Salmonellosis. According to my book that can also cause respiratory symptoms and she has developed a "hurt" foot, with some swelling just above her toes.

I think that I will have to have her tested.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Larry,

Thanks as well, for taking the time to do the research, it's always good to have as much information as possible on hand when making decisions on treatment. 

Cynthia, I hope she gets all the way well very soon.

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Update*

Beatriz's tests came back negative for chlamydia. Her sniffles and conjunctivitis have gone . The vet examined her foot and leg and was baffled as there is no sign of imjury or inflammation (the vet examined her thoroughly) She has completed a 14 day course of Baytril.

I have her in the aviary now but am keeping a close eye on her.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2007)

Cynthia,
About that foot, would you please go here and read about this?

http://www.starlingtalk.com/leg_problems.htm


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Ah, now I see the significance of the PM. But there is nothing like that on Beatriz. As I said the vet examined her very carefully. Besides which she hasn't been landing on hard surfaces.

Cynthia


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