# Spread Ash - Roller - with bars



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Hello everyone been a bit quite of late. Sometime ago I started a thread regarding some young birds, blacks and lavenders that were breed from a mealy looking cock and a blue checker hen. It was decided that although the cock didn't look like a spread ash, it must have been him passing on the spread factor. Attached are some pictures of a young cock raised from this pair now that it is a bit older. It too looks like a mealy (with a bit darker wings), however it has no tail bar. The cock (father) has a white tail. 

John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2153


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ash reds aren't supposed to have tail bars, even without spread  I can't see the pic on my phone but ill take a look when I get home.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Looks like blue phase Indigo to me.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Finally got the pictures to load. I don't think it is a blue indigo. In that case it would have to be homozygous and I don't think both the parents were indigo? The first two pictures do look like it but the third with better lighting does not. Just looks like a ash red bar split for blue


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

I think you may be right Becky. Seems like there is something darkening the ash unless it is just the lighting. Can't be dirty since it has a horn colored beak. Could it be Indigo on an Ash Red bar?

Jim


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Ash reds aren't supposed to have tail bars, even without spread  I can't see the pic on my phone but ill take a look when I get home.


That was a important oversight?

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

here are some siblings....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2061

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2060

and here are the parents...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2059


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

loonecho said:


> I think you may be right Becky. Seems like there is something darkening the ash unless it is just the lighting. Can't be dirty since it has a horn colored beak. Could it be Indigo on an Ash Red bar?
> 
> Jim


I think it's smokey making it darker and lightening the beak  It has shown in the siblings. No indigo from the looks of the parents. The father is spread even though it is extremely coarse and doesn't look spread. One of the kids is a smokey ash-red spread carrying blue, making it look like a blue with an ash-tail. I call that phenotype "black ash". More common in rollers than others. For some reason roller phenotypes can vary a LOT as well as having a bunch of genes to work with. Very colorful birds!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

loonecho said:


> Looks like blue phase Indigo to me.


What exactly do you mean by 'blue phase' Indigo. I thought indigo was indigo, incomplete dominant with reddish/bronzed pattern and washed out tail bar in heterozygous state and ash-red mimic (to some extent) in homozygous state.


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

rudolph.est said:


> What exactly do you mean by 'blue phase' Indigo. I thought indigo was indigo, incomplete dominant with reddish/bronzed pattern and washed out tail bar in heterozygous state and ash-red mimic (to some extent) in homozygous state.


Blue phase as in blue out of the 3 colours - brown, blue and ash red?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I think they meant indigo on blue.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> What exactly do you mean by 'blue phase' Indigo. I thought indigo was indigo, incomplete dominant with reddish/bronzed pattern and washed out tail bar in heterozygous state and ash-red mimic (to some extent) in homozygous state.


Brown and Ash Red can also be Indigo, can they not?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

loonecho said:


> Brown and Ash Red can also be Indigo, can they not?


Yes they can. He didn't say they couldn't  Indigo is just a modifier and can be on any of the three base colors. Indigo itself just does not have any "phases".


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

ljb107 said:


> Blue phase as in blue out of the 3 colours - brown, blue and ash red?


I got confused, since 'blue phase' is a term used for recessive opals and not for indigos. I usually talk about blue indigo, indigo on blue, or blue based indigos. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

loonecho said:


> Brown and Ash Red can also be Indigo, can they not?


As Becky stated, yes they can. I actually have bred a brown indigo, a dilute indigo and (most recently) a dilute brown indigo. Next on my list is to add spread to all these, as well as breeding them in homozygous indigo too.

Huntley has some pictures of brown indigo's on this page of his website.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> As Becky stated, yes they can. I actually have bred a brown indigo, a dilute indigo and (most recently) a dilute brown indigo. Next on my list is to add spread to all these, as well as breeding them in homozygous indigo too.
> 
> Huntley has some pictures of brown indigo's on this page of his website.


Yes, I know all of this. I am a biologist and I guess my biology-speak just got in the way of my pigeon-speak. Black bears occur in several color phases. Black, Cinnamon, and Blond. The red fox occurs in several color phases. Red, Cross, and Silver. So from a biological point of view, pigeons come in 3 color phases. Red, Blue and Brown. I just forgot for a moment that the more advanced language of pigeon genetics might leave room for confusion.

Jim


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

rudolph.est said:


> I got confused, since 'blue phase' is a term used for recessive opals and not for indigos. I usually talk about blue indigo, indigo on blue, or blue based indigos. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


Which now there aren't really any phases in recessive opal now. The "blue phase" being just normal recessive opal, and the "red phase" being a recessive allele of recessive opal called cherry.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Which now there aren't really any phases in recessive opal now. The "blue phase" being just normal recessive opal, and the "red phase" being a recessive allele of recessive opal called cherry.


Actually, Ron Huntley seems to think that cherry is a separate mutation from the 'red phase' recessive opals. I am not sure whether he (or anyone else) has done any breeding to proove this theory. But looking at the pictures, I think some testing is definitely necessary.

He has some info on his website.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That could be possible. I'm just going by what Steve Souza explained to me. He's the one who discovered and documented cherry.


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