# Birds of prey - Predators- hawks



## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Any info on when these animals feed?????? best time to fly the stock????


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

they are oppurtunist if they see food they are going to eat it... their are hawk deterrents like http://jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=72&SubCategoryID=753


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Matt D. said:


> they are oppurtunist if they see food they are going to eat it... their are hawk deterrents like http://jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=72&SubCategoryID=753 though my favorite happens to be a .22 but that isn't totally legal...=(


MATT!! Now you've been around here long enough to KNOW that this kind of talk/discussion is a BIG no no. 
NO animal deserves to be punished because it's trying to survive and that includes hawks. 
I can't believe you wrote what you did. 
IMO......there is no such thing as a hawk deterrent. If there was such a device, no one would worry about the hawks getting their birds. There may be some things that work for a day or two, but nothing that will completely keep hawks from taking your birds.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

yes I know... *tisk* *tisk*... but your right there are no deterrents... but there are distractions, and that is how they get your money.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

blkramhemi said:


> Any info on when these animals feed?????? best time to fly the stock????


The short answer on feed for these "animals" is "your birds"..........people have been trying to come up with an answer to this problem for longer than we've been on earth. Bottom line is, if you have free flying pigeons, you'll have hawks. Sooner or later and most likely sooner. If you're going to fly your birds, you've got to live with it and hope for the best. Flying your birds at different times during the day MIGHT help some, but there's no real answer. Just part of having pigeons. 
The ONE and ONLY sure way to keep your birds safe is to keep them inside.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2007)

I too agree that there is no such thing as a deterant to hawks and to actually write that you use a 22 shows how childish you truely are The fact is what is will be and theres no sense in taking a life that is just trying to survive as you and I do and one that you already know its out there .. I myself have lost a bird or two to birds of prey every year but I would never deny them the right of life, as they work for every morsel they take and if you really had an appreciation for birds of any sort you would never dream of ending a life that is just trying to survive as are your birds within your loft


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

We usually have our worst hawk problems in the early morning and the afternoon. So in other words, they look for something to eat when they wake up, and before they go to bed. Really they are on the lookout all day, so there really isn't a "safe" time to let them out, unless you are there watching for predators. Personally, I'd fly my birds from 8-10am, you know...early morning, as long as they can see. This way, if you see or hear a hawk nearby and think your birds may be in danger (I wouldn't worry much if your birds were in the air, they can usually out fly the hawks), you can call them in to eat. Same thing goes for the second feeding of the day (if you have your birds on a feeding schedule that it is...).


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Yo!! Matt your crazy... 

i here you though, hey will they eat the entire bird???? i was stalked today just cant figure out by what.... feathers everywhere, though no head or bones.... feathers spread out in a circle... shouldve taken the pic

Hey, be carefull dude, the boys in cali just went up state for that same deal......




Matt D. said:


> they are oppurtunist if they see food they are going to eat it... their are hawk deterrents like http://jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=72&SubCategoryID=753 though my favorite happens to be a .22 but that isn't totally legal...=(


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2007)

long as theres daylight your birds arent safe when they are out and thats a fact ... if your gonna fly your birds thats something your gonna have to live with like it or lump it


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

yes they will eat everything but some feathers and the band... in some cases I have just found feathers. So there isnt much more than feathers after "dinner time" but if it is small like a cooper hawk then there can be a body left. A really sad story, this summer I was watching my grandpa's loft as he was on vacation and a cooper got in and ate the head and back out of a pigeon (sorry about the description but that is how it was... I almost through up!) and the cooper hawk actually got in the loft and was still there when I got there... =( so that is one example of a hawk not eating the whole bird... it really just depends on the circumstances.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Speaking of cooper's, depending on where you live, you may have different hawks.
Cooper's Hawks and Sharp-shinned hawks look very similar (except the Cooper's is bigger and has a rounded or wedged tail, instead of a squared off one) and they both are very quick. They are more likely to catch you pigeons than Red-tails. They also like to stalk the birds through the trees, then come out of the woods and attack. There's been a lot of times around here when I didn't even see the dang thing in the tree until it started the chase.
Red-tails on the other hand, are slower and can easily be out flown by homers. Because they aren't the quickest, they like more open areas like fields. Cooper's and Sharp-shins will more than likely eat the bird close to where it was killed, while the Red-tail is more likely to take the whole bird off if it wants.

Something you want to keep in mind is that there are other predators capable of killing your birds than just falcons and hawks. 
Raccoons and opossums will normally find their way into the loft at night and kill. Both will normally kill only what they need to eat. Opossums will eat the head and neck only, leaving the body in the loft, while the raccoon normally only eats the breast and under the wings. Raccoons will take the pigeon off if it needs to, otherwise it'll leave it laying once it is done. Other night predators could be rats, owls, cats, dogs, or coyotes. Rats rarely attack adults, but will go for the young in the nest, eating a small portion out of the body or eating the whole thing if it is a big rat and small baby (like a few days old). I've had cases where the rat would just go through and eat a bit out of every baby in the loft. Owls _may_ find their way into the loft at night but I doubt it. They mainly find any of your chickens or pigeons roosting in the trees, fly up and push them from the tree...scaring the prey and then catching it while the prey is trying to fly away. If you find feathers scattered around the bottom of a tree, that's probably where the owl landed to eat. They eat the whole thing, leaving only a handful of feathers. Cats, dogs, and coyotes will go on a killing spree it seems. The cat will stay to eat a bit off of what it kills, but the dogs will probably just kill for the fun of it and leave. Having dogs get your birds is a horrible seen. Even your neighbor's dogs can be a threat, not just the wild ones. Black snakes also often slither into the loft if it can, and eat every egg in the building it can find (or a good amount of them). They can also eat the babies. If you find both eggs and babies gone, it's normally a black snake (which if you're lucky enough, you'll find the snake too full to get back out of the loft, so you can take it far away and not worry about it returning next time).

-sigh-....that was a lot of typing.
Well that's my predator info for the day


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

So I had a few people tell me about my .22 comment of a few days ago... I would like to say I was misunderstood. I did not make my self clear. Please do not shoot or shoot near a hawk. If you have a .22 and a hawk comes close to your pigeons you can shoot into a hill side and it will scare the hawks the worst, and amazingly it doesnt scare the pigeons to much. Though mine are used to it? I am very sorry for not being more clear. I have never or ever plan to kill a hawk for just doing what it's naturally going to do. Again, I didnt not mean to sound like I shoot hawks out of the sky I have also revised my post so that the perticular sentence has been erased.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, that is and sounds much better. We've done that before too. Like one time I had just let my homers out when the coast was clear, but then a whole horde of hawks decided they'd come out to play. I just set up a bottle across the creek and did some target practice with my .17. That gun is just loud enough to make the hawks stay at least a little more clear from the loft. My pigeons are used to it though, since we do live sorta out in the country, so there's always someone practicing or hunting around here.


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## ward myers (Dec 19, 2007)

*hawks*

there is a design for a humane hawk trap ,& the hawk can then be relocated
i will be doing some research on this subject myself & will post my findings
thanks ward


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## ward myers (Dec 19, 2007)

*hawks*

i triied jedds website it must be down
thanks ward


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ward myers said:


> there is a design for a humane hawk trap ,& the hawk can then be relocated
> i will be doing some research on this subject myself & will post my findings
> thanks ward


They just come back!


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Here's a hawk trap!

http://www.racingbirds.com/hawktrap.gif


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I believe you need to hold a permit or license in order to trap a hawk. You should check with your local US Fish & Wildlife Service and whatever your state Department of Fish & Game is called to get accurate information. The penalties for doing something illegal to a protected species of bird or animal are significant. The Roller fanciers that were charged with killing hawks received some tough punishment in terms of fines and jail/probation time. 

I don't want people here thinking you can just make a hawk trap, capture a hawk, and relocate it .. I'm pretty sure that is illegal unless you hold the necessary permits/licenses.

Terry


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

the other problem with this trap is you need a live pigeon to use in the trap to catch that hawk and your right you need a permit to trap hawks to begin with ..just my 3 cents


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I was out feeding the feral flock @ 4PM and I heard this odd bird sound. I looked up and saw this bird flying with a good size wing span and it landed on the electrical pole. Located very top off the pole, I couldn't get a decent picture with my camera but I was watching him with my binoculars. He was up there for awhile and his head was moving up and down, couldn't tell what he was doing. Then I noticed stuff floating in the air from where he was. I'm thinking he caught himself a little dove or sparrow and he was plucking the feathers.

Not sure what kinda bird it was but it was interesting. I'm a vegetarian so it's not like I get a kick out of this but nature is what it is.

I live in the city but there is a mountian not too far away. So I really don't get too much then the normal birds. I did notice an owl on my fence once about 15 years ago.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

once you learn to respect the hawk then you can learn to understand it a little more in its ways and how they are atracted bye the movement of anything in its path when in hunting mode ...its an awesome thing when its not your birds its hunting and focusing on .. they tend to zone in on their prey and once they do its do or die for whats on their menu


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

*Matt D*

Hey Merry Christmas to you to Matt... thanks for the info..... Sorry About your papas Loft......


Matt D. said:


> yes they will eat everything but some feathers and the band... in some cases I have just found feathers. So there isnt much more than feathers after "dinner time" but if it is small like a cooper hawk then there can be a body left. A really sad story, this summer I was watching my grandpa's loft as he was on vacation and a cooper got in and ate the head and back out of a pigeon (sorry about the description but that is how it was... I almost through up!) and the cooper hawk actually got in the loft and was still there when I got there... =( so that is one example of a hawk not eating the whole bird... it really just depends on the circumstances.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

today I had my first experiance with a pair of peregrines and it wasnt pretty let me tell you ..those birds are relentless and if you thought coopers were a problem they dont even come close to a peregrine falcon attacking your flock  they for one thing have no problem out flying your birds but they tend to like to play with them more so and like to get above them and dive bomb them over and over exhausting your birds ... they dont use the sneak attack methods but preferr the open airspace so even when your birds scatter to the 4 winds it doesnt help very much ...Im still waiting on a 1/3 of my flock to return from the 4 corners of the globe and I know for sure one wont be making that trip 

p.s. just wondering how this thread ever got into the for sale and adoptions part ..things that make you go hmmm?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

LokotaLoft said:


> p.s. just wondering how this thread ever got into the for sale and adoptions part ..things that make you go hmmm?


Beats me .. I've moved it to General. I'm sorry your birds got attacked and hope the survivors will be home soon.

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> today I had my first experiance with a pair of peregrines and it wasnt pretty let me tell you ..those birds are relentless and if you thought coopers were a problem they dont even come close to a peregrine falcon attacking your flock  they for one thing have no problem out flying your birds but they tend to like to play with them more so and like to get above them and dive bomb them over and over exhausting your birds ... they dont use the sneak attack methods but preferr the open airspace so even when your birds scatter to the 4 winds it doesnt help very much ...Im still waiting on a 1/3 of my flock to return from the 4 corners of the globe and I know for sure one wont be making that trip
> 
> p.s. just wondering how this thread ever got into the for sale and adoptions part ..things that make you go hmmm?


I had one get into my coop and she killed 8 pigeons. It seemed she killed just to kill. It was very strange. It was a horror sceen...an awful sight to walk in on and one I'll never forget. Some of my most precious were dead. She couldn't figure out how to get out. My son got her into a kennel and we took her some miles north and let her go. She was back in the morning.:


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

I have to agree they were brutal on my birds... they hit first when my birds were all up on the house getting ready to come in for their feeding ,one pigeon was grabbed and they tumbled into the bushes out front I ran and it took some convincing for that bird to leg go of my pigeon but he finally did but that wasnt the end of it as he had no fear of me thats for sure .. it then swooped around the back of the house and grabbed another pigeon that landed in a tree over the loft but I managed to yet again thwart its efforts as the rest of my birds scattered every which way into the sky... thats when I saw the second one and it was like complete chaos with the aerial battles for their lives errupting everywhere up where I could no longer help them ..I was freaking out because these birds werent just going after one they were playing ping pong with the whole flock up there  they pushed my birds so far out I lost sight of most of them for a while but then my birds started coming in but so fast they looked like Kamikazes plowing into the open doorway ..I was proud of them for handling themselves so well when out gunned as much as they were .. Im still missing 3 birds but keeping my fingers crossed for an early morning arrival  

Im sorry about your birds Charis I know how you feel , I putting my babies on lock down for a good long while as with these peregrines they are way out matched ,take care ,Merry Christmas and good luck in the New Year


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

WOW!!! Thanks for that one.... 

first off im in Big ol Texas ( Victoria ) about an hour 1/2 from Houston.... 
I know!!!! its wide open for anything TO PREY..... just moved here six months ago from California.... 

well i wasnt able to see what color or what the pred was.... 
ide just returned home from my daughters school, and noticed every one was scattered and not trapped, so i called for them to get home, noticing my blk and wht tip wasnt in yet, knowing something had just wiffed thru there... my girl comes outside to play with the dogs, and she noticed the feathers behind the shed, in a perfect circle w/little blood, the dogs had been locked up inside the house, so i knew it wasnt them..... 


r


MaryOfExeter said:


> Speaking of cooper's, depending on where you live, you may have different hawks.
> Cooper's Hawks and Sharp-shinned hawks look very similar (except the Cooper's is bigger and has a rounded or wedged tail, instead of a squared off one) and they both are very quick. They are more likely to catch you pigeons than Red-tails. They also like to stalk the birds through the trees, then come out of the woods and attack. There's been a lot of times around here when I didn't even see the dang thing in the tree until it started the chase.
> Red-tails on the other hand, are slower and can easily be out flown by homers. Because they aren't the quickest, they like more open areas like fields. Cooper's and Sharp-shins will more than likely eat the bird close to where it was killed, while the Red-tail is more likely to take the whole bird off if it wants.
> 
> ...


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

well i started this thread as i was looking for roller pigeons for sale, not thinking to go under discussions.... anyways, you found it right???? thanks for the info Merry Christmas!!!!!!



LokotaLoft said:


> today I had my first experiance with a pair of peregrines and it wasnt pretty let me tell you ..those birds are relentless and if you thought coopers were a problem they dont even come close to a peregrine falcon attacking your flock  they for one thing have no problem out flying your birds but they tend to like to play with them more so and like to get above them and dive bomb them over and over exhausting your birds ... they dont use the sneak attack methods but preferr the open airspace so even when your birds scatter to the 4 winds it doesnt help very much ...Im still waiting on a 1/3 of my flock to return from the 4 corners of the globe and I know for sure one wont be making that trip
> 
> p.s. just wondering how this thread ever got into the for sale and adoptions part ..things that make you go hmmm?


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hey ward let me know when you get the info... 



ward myers said:


> there is a design for a humane hawk trap ,& the hawk can then be relocated
> i will be doing some research on this subject myself & will post my findings
> thanks ward


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

ok guys i witnessed the attack yesterday, it was a Cooper... the sucker swooped on the landing.... he grabbed my almond hen on top of the roof, wrestling down to the ground right in front of me, i shooed him away.... get this he let her go.... came around for a second look though, he looked confused as i was standing there on look out, i threw some things in the air, really threw him off.... so guys get your ammo ready, rocks,shingles,pieces of wood...whatever you have to chuck in the air as another offering...

( for throwing purposes) Donot shoot the birds.....


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We don't fly any of our birds but we have plenty of songbirds and dove that feed in our yard so it is scary when you see one of the small hawks near by. They are ferocious. Several years ago we had two PMV pigeons outside with us when a Cooper's landed on the roof just above the more handicapped pigeon. He swooped down before we could even move and the only thing that saved Misty was the wide overhang on our roof. She was mostly under it and the hawk misjudged, giving us enough time to scoop her up.

Knock on wood  , we don't see many of the small hawks any more because we have a family of crows that practically live in our back yard, plus we actively encourage a Red Shouldered hawk couple to visit too. Just this morning our crows and hawks fed on left over turkey. The hawks don't bother the small birds or squirrels and we feel they are a deterrent to the smaller hawks like the Coopers'. Try putting out hamburger, chicken, turkey, soaked dog food pellets to encourage these birds to stay in your area.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Thanks maggie, ill try that, though i havent seen a crow sense ive moved to big ol Texas from California..... they have what im told are buzzereds, they do have other black birds that resemble crows but smaller.... i would have to keep that food offering high off the ground, cuzz my dogs will think its for them ( greedy ).... 

r


Lady Tarheel said:


> We don't fly any of our birds but we have plenty of songbirds and dove that feed in our yard so it is scary when you see one of the small hawks near by. They are ferocious. Several years ago we had two PMV pigeons outside with us when a Cooper's landed on the roof just above the more handicapped pigeon. He swooped down before we could even move and the only thing that saved Misty was the wide overhang on our roof. She was mostly under it and the hawk misjudged, giving us enough time to scoop her up.
> 
> Knock on wood  , we don't see many of the small hawks any more because we have a family of crows that practically live in our back yard, plus we actively encourage a Red Shouldered hawk couple to visit too. Just this morning our crows and hawks fed on left over turkey. The hawks don't bother the small birds or squirrels and we feel they are a deterrent to the smaller hawks like the Coopers'. Try putting out hamburger, chicken, turkey, soaked dog food pellets to encourage these birds to stay in your area.


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## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

This is second hand info but....the easiest legal way to trap a hawk is to get a falconer to tag a trap for you and remove the birds from your location. Usually they can give them to another falconer for use. If not relocation is the plan. These guys usually work pretty close with fish and game I think. 

yits
v99


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Thought I'd pipe in on this. Since we keep hawks, owls and other birds of prey here (www.nc-claws.org) and teach about them.
Different birds of prey hunt at different times, so as not to encroach on each other's territory and wind up fighting with each other. Not all owls are nocturnal, so don't think you are in less danger from things like great horned owls either.
Hawks are probably your biggest concern. Depending on where you are in the country, some hawks won't even be there in the winter, most are migratory. But your worst time will be dawn and dusk. Though, they do hunt when food is available as they are diurnal.

BTW, just for the record, hurting, in any way, any bird of prey is a federal offense and the fines are not small.



> This is second hand info but....the easiest legal way to trap a hawk is to get a falconer to tag a trap for you and remove the birds from your location. Usually they can give them to another falconer for use. If not relocation is the plan. These guys usually work pretty close with fish and game I think.


Hawks have mates, so removing one will endanger the other. Unless you are licensed to do this and even falconers are not, you cannot relocate a hawk just because it is in your way. Most are also NOT licensed to tag/band them, this takes very special permitting that is only allowed by a few.
Falconers can trap hawks for their own use, if they are permitted to do so, and yes, they work with the federal Fish and Wildlife department, just as we do.

As somebody else said, all animals have the right to live and feed as nature intended. 
Not saying anybody here would hurt a bird of prey, just have to put that out there due to my permits.

And don't worry, the pigeons we took in are not kept anywhere near our birds of prey, and all are secure in their mews.

I hope I'm not coming across as mean, I just have to teach this stuff on a daily basis and get the results of what people do to animals just for being the species that they are, so it is a sensitive subject here. I just got off the phone with an officer because they are building a case against a man who was trapping hawks. I'd show you pictures, but they are so graphic, I'm sure most really would rather not see them.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I just visited your web site. Very impressive........what you do. I hope all of our members will see your post and visit the site. What a cool job to have, although I know it's not ALWAYS a happy ending.


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Thank you so much! It isn't always a happy ending, but at least we feel like we are making some sort of a difference usually. This case we are working on is simply horrible.
Trust me, if you saw the pictures, trapping or otherwise harming these birds would leave your mind.
I know it has to be tough trying to raise and fly pigeons with birds of prey around, but they are federally protected and AMAZING animals!!!
Visit the site again soon, we are getting in 3 ravens from Alaska (what a story they are) and a new hawk!!!! Yes, I know hawks are not pigeon friends, but they are amazing birds!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

ncfancypigeon said:


> Thank you so much! It isn't always a happy ending, but at least we feel like we are making some sort of a difference usually. This case we are working on is simply horrible.
> Trust me, if you saw the pictures, trapping or otherwise harming these birds would leave your mind.
> I know it has to be tough trying to raise and fly pigeons with birds of prey around, but they are federally protected and AMAZING animals!!!
> Visit the site again soon, we are getting in 3 ravens from Alaska (what a story they are) and a new hawk!!!! Yes, I know hawks are not pigeon friends, but they are amazing birds!


I agree with you that hawks are amazing. We've been VERY VERY lucky here where we live. We don't have a "hawk problem". Not sure why, as we live in the middle of the woods and EVERYONE said the hawks would tear us up living here. We've had pigeons here for going on 8 years and have lost a total of 4 or 5 in those eight years. Don't get me wrong,,,,,,,,,we do see them but I know fanciers that have daily visits and have birds taken on a daily basis. IF we had THAT big of a problem, I simply wouldn't have a flying breed of pigeons, cause I couldn't bear that. 
Anyway, I'll check the site every once in a while. 
I thought about asking you where in NC you are, because I'm from NC and visit there almost every week, and I see you're not that far from Winston-Salem, which is where my whole family lives.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, who knew!  

What a wonderful organization and I knew nothing about you. I am very familiar with Piedmont Wildlife Center and Wildlife Welfare, Inc. but your group has been a well-kept secret - at least from me. 

Thank you for all the great work you do. I do rehabilitate and love pigeons but if you read my earlier post you know that I also love hawks and crows. I can't imagine anyone hurting a hawk. They are so majestic and beautiful.


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

> What a wonderful organization and I knew nothing about you. I am very familiar with Piedmont Wildlife Center and Wildlife Welfare, Inc. but your group has been a well-kept secret - at least from me.


We work with both organizations, but yes, some have tried hard to keep us a well kept secret. LOL
That would not be us!

If you have a lot of crows around, that could be why you have no problem with hawks getting your birds. Crows will chase hawks away. I'm not sure if hawks will stay away from whole flocks of pigeons, but they very well might. You don't see them take a lot of pigeons out in the wild. They are a bit bigger than most hawks will eat, and most animals won't kill what they can't eat. 

We have two crows here, right now they are inside with me, for intense training, but when they were outside, we never saw a hawk in the yard. Once they came in, but before the pigeons got here, a huge red-tailed showed up and hung out on our back deck, after the pigeons got here, he left. He even used to land and sit on our fox pen. Now he's just gone.

We do public shows often, if you keep track, you can come see us. We will have our own building at the Raliegh Rennaissance Festival this spring.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I will look forward to the festival. Where is this being held?

Do you ever take your birds to the State Fair? I know most years there is an exhibit in one of the buildings near the main gate (where the flea markets are during the rest of the year) and they usually have a raptor of some sort there for the public to see. It is a favorite part of the fair for me.

I do hope you will continue to participate on our forum. Most of us love birds of all kinds and animals too so we would love to see some of yours from time to time.

I got a real chuckle out of your wish list. I belong to Wildlife Welfare and we are forever wanting "things" too. I will certainly keep your group in mind if we hear of anything you guys could use.

Could you tell me what the "snugglesafe" item is on your wish list? Sounds intriguing.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I will look forward to the festival. Where is this being held?
> 
> Do you ever take your birds to the State Fair? I know most years there is an exhibit in one of the buildings near the main gate (where the flea markets are during the rest of the year) and they usually have a raptor of some sort there for the public to see. It is a favorite part of the fair for me.
> 
> ...


http://snugglesafe.co.uk/endorsements.htm
I found this. Just posted the first link I came across. Didn't look for them in the US.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee, thanks - sounds pretty nice. Lasts for 10-12 hours, no wires. Maybe there is a distributor here in the US.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Renee, thanks - sounds pretty nice. Lasts for 10-12 hours, no wires. Maybe there is a distributor here in the US.


http://www.preparedpet.com/

http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=4915

Found this on Ebay.........looks like it's the disk AND a pet cushion. That's the only one I see on Ebay, but I bet the lady selling it carries them and MIGHT sell them at a better price than the two places above. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dog-Puppy-Cat-K...ryZ20744QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

We get ours at revival pet online, they are WONDERFUL!!!!!
We don't do the state fair, just don't have that many days in a row to devote. You have to be there every day all day and we have to care for the animals here, plus, rehabbing deer, we are normally still rehabbing.
If you are with Wildlife Welfare, you know how many mammals we are wintering over this year. It seems we got most people's squirrels and flying squirrels. 
We do swear by the snuggle safes though! They are AMAZING!!!!!


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hello Nancy, 

Great site!!!! and thank you for your input on this topic.... although i do get pissed at them ( BOP) .... I Now this may sound a bit twisted, i do get a bit excited with the skill that these birds bring ( when in hunt mode ) though just not my babies....LOL 
I know that they have to feed themselves, just as we ourselves do everyday... though these are my babies.... 
If someone in the higher ranks of the predators, can just arrange a sit down, me and Mr. hawk can just come to an agreement....

Though i need to say this, on a moreserious note, theres history with these pigeons, i know alot of fanciers can understand... some of these birds have been handed down from great papas, dads, cousins, uncles etc... though im not condoning violence against these BOP.... these guys kept most of the guys i know including myself off the streets of L.A.... 15 - 20 years ago guys didnt have to worry about the BOP.... 
As a kid growing up in California, were the fine was hit on some fellow fanciers, we flew all day everyday, now the numbers have risin 10 fold, guys just cant fly anymore.... and it sucks.... 

This is not aimed at you Nancy at all...... 

just venting a bit, i was it again just yesterday, after a month lockdown and no site of the BOP's..... i decided to let them up, though only one was hit...... around 3:00pm i shooed them off the roof, i dont want them to get spoiled and sit there.... from one roof to another thatall it took BAM!!!!!!! there he was, like a speeding star to earth, in front of me, litterally 8 ft away, i watched the entier hunt, and i feel like crap, because if i wouldnt have shooed them, my cock would still be here.

Hey Nancy, would you mind inputing on, when i should fly my guys, im down in victoria, Texas 1 hour and a half from Houston... ( off the Gulf ) i heard they migrate south ( meaning here ) during this time when can i expect them to LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! 

Thanks, Nancy



ncfancypigeon said:


> Thought I'd pipe in on this. Since we keep hawks, owls and other birds of prey here (www.nc-claws.org) and teach about them.
> Different birds of prey hunt at different times, so as not to encroach on each other's territory and wind up fighting with each other. Not all owls are nocturnal, so don't think you are in less danger from things like great horned owls either.
> Hawks are probably your biggest concern. Depending on where you are in the country, some hawks won't even be there in the winter, most are migratory. But your worst time will be dawn and dusk. Though, they do hunt when food is available as they are diurnal.
> 
> ...


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Sorry if I'm confused, by "Nancy" are you referring to me?

I honestly don't blame you for being upset when your babies are killed, no matter how. I'm just stating laws and BOP behavior is all. Living with many predators and many prey species, I do understand the risks.

I am sorry for those of your birds who were taken, that is very sad!!!!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

NCfancypigeon,

I think if you could post some information about the migratory habits of hawks and when pigeon folks can/could expect them .. that would be very helpful. Nobody is angry with you or anything like that .. just looking for help and information from someone who knows.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Sorry NCfancypigeon ..*

I apologize .. how we got Nancy from NCfancypigeon, I'm not sure, but I did it too. I'm very sorry. I have no idea what your name is but we do appreciate you posting here on Pigeon-Talk. I'll do my best to be sure that the "Nancy" name doesn't follow you here

Terry


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

LOL
Thanks Terry, I wasn't sure if it was me that was being talked to or somebody else. I'm Kindra, BTW, so you can have a name to call me.
I'll write a thread on the habits of bird eating birds, maybe that will help some. I talk to people all the time on the phone about how to keep hawks from eating the wild birds at their feeders (take the feeder down for a week, that closes the hawk restaurant). The problem here is, you all are flying your birds, which means probably or possibly through the hawk's territory. I'm not saying that's bad, it just makes the whole issue harder to deal with. 
Depending on what part of the country you are in, some of the hawk species won't leave. Northern states will have most leave and head south, but others won't.
There are so many species to think about with the hawks, or owls, or whatever birds, that it is very tough to say "oh, do this and you won't have a problem"
Though, obviously, if you see a hawk in the area, do not fly your birds there. 
Flying them near or over water, is of course, a problem.
This is a really tough one!!!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Kindra .. thanks for the name! I'm sorry we got all confused here  I'll look forward to your posts!

Terry


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hello Kindra, LMAO... Im sorry, my big goof.... didnt mean to call you Nancy, hey i was close huh??? lol.... i know you were like what???? well i did enjoy your post, as you read my paragraph of complaining..... 

looking forward to your post............. Please Hurry!!!!! got young ones to train...

Rodrigo



ncfancypigeon said:


> LOL
> Thanks Terry, I wasn't sure if it was me that was being talked to or somebody else. I'm Kindra, BTW, so you can have a name to call me.
> I'll write a thread on the habits of bird eating birds, maybe that will help some. I talk to people all the time on the phone about how to keep hawks from eating the wild birds at their feeders (take the feeder down for a week, that closes the hawk restaurant). The problem here is, you all are flying your birds, which means probably or possibly through the hawk's territory. I'm not saying that's bad, it just makes the whole issue harder to deal with.
> Depending on what part of the country you are in, some of the hawk species won't leave. Northern states will have most leave and head south, but others won't.
> ...


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Its fine, I'm not offended at all, I just wasn't sure if somebody else on this thread was Nancy and didn't want to answer for her. LOL

Do you know what type of hawk you are having problems with? Can you describe it. They all have different eating habits and times, so that could help in figuring out your situation, and how to solve it.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hello Kindra, 

Yes!!!! ive seen the small almost pigeon sized sharp-shinned hawk, though i havent seen him lately.... also the black crow sized Cooper hawk.... the last to take one of my youngins..... ive had two hits since ive been flying here.... the first i didnt see..... 

Kindra, 

1.will the two hawks cross paths ??? 

2. is there a bird called the hawk owl ???? 

Thanks, Rodrigo



ncfancypigeon said:


> Its fine, I'm not offended at all, I just wasn't sure if somebody else on this thread was Nancy and didn't want to answer for her. LOL
> 
> Do you know what type of hawk you are having problems with? Can you describe it. They all have different eating habits and times, so that could help in figuring out your situation, and how to solve it.


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Hi,
There is a bird called a Hawk Owl, but it is an owl and not a very large one at that. Mostly found up north. They eat mostly small rodents, not birds.


As you obviously know, Coopers and Sharp-shinned are both bird eaters and yes, they will visit the same feeding grounds. Though typically not at the same time. 

Normally, when I get calls from people saying "the hawks are eating all of my birds at my feeders", I tell them to remove the feeders for two weeks. This will let the hawks know that the "restaurant" is now closed and they need to shop elsewhere.
I'm not sure how you are set up. Can the hawks see your birds from the sky? Or trees near by? If so, can you cover the top of their enclosure so they can't be seen for a while?

If you can trick the hawks into thinking that the "restaurant" is closed, they will move elsewhere.

Also, another trick that might work is to get one of those fake great horned owls and put it up prominently where the hawks can see it. Even get a call that sounds like one. They are NOT going to go up against a bird of that size!

I really hope this helps, I truly am sorry for your troubles! I save these guys, but I know how hard it must be to have them eat your babies! I won't release squirrels or anything in the same place I release raptors for this reason.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

yes out witting hawks or any raptor is a very tricky thing .. the problem is they get smarter all the time and adapt to almost any situation just as pigeons do ,so they sort of go hand in hand if you think about it .. the ying an yang of of the bird world  things that make you go hmmm


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

I guess that's why they both survive?
Though I'd think pigeons are kinda big for those types of hawks!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

yes you would think they are to big but when it come to these types of hawks as they say their eyes are bigger then their stomach  and seeing is believing dohhh  just ask my pigeons they will tell you from real experiances


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Oh, I totally believe you. We just picked up an owl who was hit by a car because he killed a cat in a road. The cat was WAY too big for him to lift!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

now that is something that when seeing is believing comes to lite for sure lol ..we had a redtail in the neighborhood that tried that too with a neighbors cat that will never be the same Im sure but he dint get to far and the cat put up enuf fight to get away in the end , the ride of its life for sure none the less thou .. they will attemp anything once Im sure an if it works once I sure it becomes habit if its successful .. I live close to a field and we see it all here but I have to say the day the perigrines came to town I will never forget , amazing birds to say the least and fearless to boot ..not something a pigeon flyer wants in his neighborhood lol


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

I can imagine! I work with a peregrine who is really nice, but I sure would not want to be prey around him!


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hello Kindra, 

My two set up's are a 10 x 10 loft w/ 4 kit boxes both predator proof... nothing can get in, nor can they see my babies.... they ve only snagged on the land.... Great horned owl huh?? would'nt that spook the pigeons, now that theyve seen the hawk??? 

thanks




ncfancypigeon said:


> Hi,
> There is a bird called a Hawk Owl, but it is an owl and not a very large one at that. Mostly found up north. They eat mostly small rodents, not birds.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2008)

yes they are a very determined bird of prey and arent afraid to show you  I thought coopers hawks were bad but .. ok they are but if i had peregrines that were residents here I would have to give up flying Im sure


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2008)

your pigeons will get used to it very quickly as many have used that method as well but they say the trick is to more the fake owl around each day placing it in a different spot making it seem more life like and not something that sits in the same place each an everyday ..goodluck and happy flying when you can


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

That and get the kind that the head moves with wind and stuff. Those seem more realistic to birds.
Your birds will get used to them. Mine live near REAL owls and hawks and they are fine. Not too close, but they are there and they aren't bothered by it at all. Its the owls and hawks you have to worry about (not mine, all are non-flighted and enclosed).
Coopers hawks aren't bad, they are just doing what they are supposed to do. And I know you didn't really mean that they are BAD.
Peregrines are VERY cool though! Having worked with them, I'd LOVE to have one!


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2008)

Kindra your right I didnt mean that coopers were bad birds just bad for my birds hehe  Anytime but while my birds are flying around they are awesome but for that little time frame that my birds are flying around I favor my birds above them lol  and yes the peregrine is one cool bird


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm sure!!! I'd love to see a flock fly trained!!! I don't let mine out to fly right now because they haven't been here that long and I'm afraid they will fly back to where they came from or get lost or eaten along the way.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hey Kindra, 

Please brace yourself, though this is disturbing... just wanted to post for everyone to see whats going on back home in Cali.... ive never seen these guys before, all though i dont know every Roller Guy in L.A.... 

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/01/20/finnstrom.hawk.killer.cnn?iref=videosearch


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hey Kindra, 

Please brace yourself, though this is disturbing... just wanted to post for everyone to see whats going on back home in Cali.... ive never seen these guys before, all though i dont know every Roller Guy in L.A....


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

We already have a thread on this. I email them on having a positive story for real breeders.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

ok MattD... thanks


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

I didn't watch the whole thing. I have to see it in real life here, when I try to save the hawks that are shot. I also have to photodocument what I can so those people can be prosecuted.

No offense to anybody here, I know you love your birds, but hawks and falcons are federally protected for good reason. Peregrines were extinct in the contiguous US for years and the ones that are here now are only here because of an intense breeding program.

Wouldn't it be nice if people could learn to do what they love and still live in harmony with the animals who were here first?


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

mmm harmony would be a wonderful thing


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

ncfancypigeon said:


> I didn't watch the whole thing. I have to see it in real life here, when I try to save the hawks that are shot. I also have to photodocument what I can so those people can be prosecuted.
> 
> No offense to anybody here, I know you love your birds, but hawks and falcons are federally protected for good reason. Peregrines were extinct in the contiguous US for years and the ones that are here now are only here because of an intense breeding program.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if people could learn to do what they love and still live in harmony with the animals who were here first?


NcFancy, There are no good answers to this. On this Link that was played no one has answered if a Hawk/Eagle/Bear/etc. came in there Fenced yard & killed one of there small Dogs or other pets once a week or more!!!.... I have Raced Racing Pigeons, competition Rollers, for 50yrs. & Flew Falconry for 22yrs. Plus Rehabbed many a Hawks & Falcons, so know all sides of this issue. It is easy to say it's just the law. I don't agree with the Goshawk Traps or unattended Traps at all, but things just aren't as simple as you say... The Peregrines that they have replaced in Calif. are not the native ones, & they didn't just place them on the coast as Most of the original Peregrines were in the 1940's. They even placed them in Prairie Falcon nest (switching eggs) in the middle of the Deserts, on Buildings in Los Angeles, Denver, etc. etc.. This all came a a high cost & much $$$ WAS MADE on this OVERSTOCK & in my opinion, just plain overdone!! I have witnessed (One Peregrine) kill 5 Rollers in Five Min.. One Friend lost 87 Bonified Peregrine Kills of his Rollers in one yr. in Central Calif. This has just happened in the last 10 or so yrs. now that they are now breeding very well on there own... I have no good answers to this, as the Wrong Breed of Peregrines have already been OVERSTOCKED in so many of the wrong areas. Not as Simple as ya say......... Happy


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I tend to agree with you Happy. There is no easy solution to this argument. Maybe bird fanciers should be allowed to trap and relocate. I have no solution.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I have just been standing at my kitchen window watching our beautiful red shouldered hawk eat soaked dog food with juncos, sparrows, redbirds, etc. feeding just a few feet away. It made me so sad that here is a meat eating bird having to eat soaked dog food in order to survive. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't fly our birds so they are safe, but I can feel intense sadness when I read of what hawks do to the birds that do fly.

In our situation, the red shouldered hawk, along with the crows, help keep the true bird eaters away. I know they do and they are living peacefully with the songbirds. I can't help it, I love that big old hawk just as much as I do my pigeons and crows.


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## Avion (May 28, 2007)

Your just a big ol SOFTY at heart.

George


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

I completely agree that there is no easy solution, BUT, it is the law, and that is a fact. It is the law for good reason.
The peregrines they introduced here are actually the same birds, just much larger because they came from an area where no DDT was used, so they didn't lose size and so forth. Not to mention, most birds are larger in Alaska and that is where they brought the breeders in from.

Unfortunately, for birds of prey, relocating is usually not only not a good idea, but not feasible. Most have a 1 mile radius and if they are accidentally relocated into an area where another hawk is resident, they will be killed.

You are right, having red tails around, would help.

I'm not trying to be mean, or nasty, I stated the law. I wasn't "downing" anybody, it is a VERY tough situation to be in for everybody concerned. BUT, that video was really disturbing! And what I've seen here is disturbing! We are working with the officers right now on a hawk who was leg trapped (yes, jaw trap, like a bear) on a VERY tall pole that could not have been for anything other than a bird, and that person had no birds he was protecting, he was most likely selling body parts on the black market. 

Sadly, the laws are very black and white. That is to make them easier to enforce. It would be nice if each situation could be taken into account separately, but the government doesn't seem to have that kind of time or staff.

Again, I'm not trying to offend anybody at all, I'd be highly upset if I was going through this, I was just stating facts, those aren't mine, they are the governments.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Avion said:


> Your just a big ol SOFTY at heart.
> 
> George


LOL George, I know. I can't help myself! This is his picture I took last year.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Maggie,

He is beautiful. How nice to watch him eat next to the other birds that feed in your yard. Lucky You! I know he has been your baby for a long time.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

this is a very hard discussion to sort out becuz either way it can get very heated but you do have to admit it is very sad that pigeons are not even half as protected as much as birds of prey and they are considered ones property and extended family at the same time


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I agree! I know that there are alot of particulars in these matters, and I am always glad when any animal is protected by the Federal Government. But if our pigeons and pigeon fanciers just had one little avenue of consideration, I really don't believe that anyone would be killing hawks.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hello Kindra, What are Our rights against the BOP ???? if any, who shall we talk to?????


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

yeah I dont mean to sound harsh on either side of this topic but its pretty bad that when a bird of prey gets hurt or killed there is all this rigamarow, fines and repercussions to be had but when your pigeons get hurt, killed or driven off and Im not talking about just one bird here ,all you get is "deal with it" its not our problem


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hello Gang, 

There was a guy just yesterday.... well lets just call him a fancier. i dont wonna name the club..... he suggested every one hush on the topic... because thats how the investigations started..... i say NO!!!! because if someone is reading my post.... i would like them to know were upset, and would like to get some answers, on what we CAN do..... not what we cant.... 

we know the BOP's are protected, and theres fines, as well as jail time.... though is there anyone, to listen to us ( fanciers )????? 

Theres a great deal of time, practice, and patience well all of the above with this hobby.... for some its income driven.... what do we tell our kids???
my daughter cried just the last time i was hit.... she doesnt understand just yet, as many times as ive explained to her.... why do i have to talk with her about this, every time the birds are up.... it sucks!!!! i dont like her to be upset, as well as my birds.....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The only thing you can do is keep your birds inside and build them a roomy aviary. That way, nothing gets killed and no one is upset.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Charis, 
I respect your choice to keep your birds in..... to each his own.... but what fun is that????? I have Screaming Performers, as we call them in Los angeles... i raise to fly not for show..... 

? what breed do you have???? 

I smile when my guys fly..... coming home from work seeing them cooped up, just kills me.... call me soft.... 

They have all the space they could ever have, besides the sky.... a 10 x 10 loft as well as an wide opened aviary, i forget the size of that thing... its BIG, Texas has nothing but Yard....

I cant just bow down to the BOP, theyve killed and ran off to many over the years ... and get this guys...( lol.... but not really lol ) yes!!! it was my best bird..... as if the skys not big enough for them to house one area of the globe..... 

if theres someone here that could, talk about NOT keeping my guys cooped up... i would love to share some ink....


Thanks


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There's nothing more magical than watching your birds fly free...the way their wings catch the rays of sun..the way they circle home, flying separately but as one ...it's beautiful...breath-taking so I understand how you feel. It's just not safe. If you understand the risk and fly them anyway, you have no reason to complain. The Hawks are protected and your pigeons are not. I understand how you feel and it doesn't seem fair. [not much in this world is fair]
I have a lovely assortment of ferals and fancy birds. They are all exquisitely beautiful to me.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

I understand, your right!!! im taking the risk..... though who makes these rules???? why is the pigeon not a favorite??? maybe i answered my own ? the city commies, as the roller guys call them.... theyve litterally messed the entire hobby up... 
now people look upon us as messy, though its all in the trainer.... if fish and game were to see my loft, theyll crap there pants.... theres not one poop strain with in the pens, nor on the floor.... it maybe a seed or two... LOL..... but no poop.... disease free knock on wood.... 

Thanks, charis 

blkramhemi


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

*Just Some info from another site, please!!! everyone that reads this... take notes and fight for our little ones..... *

*Send your pigeon Club reps emails for representation @ the Meetings *

I think your right to the letter. With the exception of who, will take them (PETA & the FEDs) on. 

Only reg voters can win this battle for we pigeon people, and that means 

US. Is there anyone that goes against the IRA or the NAACP, or AARP, or 

the UAW and all the other large organization. ...., Nnnoooo! And that's 

because they have large numbers of voters in their grps. And..., they have 

lobbyist !! 

Now the ARPU (the pigeon racers Ass.for those who didn't catch those 

letters...), are and have been preparing for a fight w/ government for yrs. 

Small problems in local area gov. and large problems in Washington. The 

ARPU does all it can for it's members, and that means even going to court if 

they have too. As I see it, all these yrs. the NPA has been sitting on it's 

butt, when it comes to legal fights, w/ the attitude of "that ant my job 

man". And most of the show people who don't care to turn out their show 

birds to fly, don't really care either.... So that leaves all the rest of us, WHO 

DO (or would like to) turn our birds out to fly the blue skies. (But take 

heart...., there's a lot of us too in the NPA.)

If NOW, isn't the time to go to the NPA, I don't know when it would be. As 

now we have a new Pres. and the NPA is asking US what we think they 

should be doing to help build the Ass. and get more people involved in 

pigeons. And also, to have a better Ass. for all its membership. And w/ the 

Grand National starting this Thursday and the NPA having its membership 

meeting at 6 PM the same day, is the best time in the world for us to step up 

and say ''hey guys, it's time to DO SOMETHING !! Now if you can't/ aren't 

going to the show, no problem, we all have representatives for each sec of 

the country..., E-MAIL THEM. And if you don't know who your rep is, then 

you really should be finding out who he is. If we besiege the NPA w/ 

requests for back-up on this BOP problem, then maybe together w/ the AU 

and all the other pigeon ass., we can get some laws changed/ at least some 

help. And when I say help, I DON'T mean trap'em and take'em 50 mls down 

the road, as they'll be back in their home tree, before you can get home. 

Pigeons aren't the only birds who know where home is. If hawks can migrate 

from Canada to Mexico for the winter, why on earth wouldn't he know which 

way home is.... (50 mls back up the rd.).

The only real answers to over population, is (1) much less food, or (2) take 

them off the endangered list. And those that are trapped are put down in a 

human way. Now if the Fed Gov can help the ranchers w/ the excess wild 

horses out west, and the roaming of wolves out of the Nat. Parks, not to 

mention the Polar bears up north, then they can help us too. Us..., being 

thousands of VOTERS who spend money and can stand together.


And as for this tagging of pet animals Fed law thing coming up. Well..., you 

can forget that for pigeons, as the ARPU will take that all the way to the 

Supreme Court if need be. And especially if all the other pigeon Ass. join in 

the fight as well. If you think these racers are going to have to tag each 

and EVERY one of their racing birds, you've got another think coming. They 

fly those birds by the millions in races JUST in this country..... Remember the 

word "EXEMPT".... ?

And best of all...., is the FREE ADVERTISING all we pigeon people and Ass. 

are going to get if all the above hits the News Papers !! Just think of it..., 

we poor pigeon hobbyist w/ our beautiful show birds and sweet little homers 

are being discriminated against by big bad Fed Gov. And we have such 

beautiful sweet breeds of all kinds, for you and your kids to enjoy. And it's 

SUCH a great hobby and can teach your children so much about being a good 

adult and taking responsibility. And the list goes on and on...., just think of 

it, if all the above hits the press... TV, Magazines and News Papers. The 

pigeon Ass's. couldn't afford to pay for all the free advertising coast to 

coast. And (God forbid) even if we lose the fight, think of all the information 

the public would learn/ gain by it. Especially.. ., that we are not ALL hawk / 

BOP killers !!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

blkramhemi said:


> I understand, your right!!! im taking the risk..... though who makes these rules???? why is the pigeon not a favorite??? maybe i answered my own ? the city commies, as the roller guys call them.... theyve litterally messed the entire hobby up...
> now people look upon us as messy, though its all in the trainer.... if fish and game were to see my loft, theyll crap there pants.... theres not one poop strain with in the pens, nor on the floor.... it maybe a seed or two... LOL..... but no poop.... disease free knock on wood....
> 
> Thanks, charis
> ...


Let's back up for a minute .. where the heck do you think all your racing, fancy, and performing breeds came from? From those "nasty" little commies over thousands of years. It's OK in my book to want to defend your personal favorite pigeons, but not at the expense of the feral pigeons. As with many things, it's humans who have caused the problems and not the birds or animals. Here in the U.S. the only non-protected species of wild birds are English House Sparrows, European Starlings, and feral pigeons .. why is that? Because they were all an introduced species to the North American Continent and intentionally brought here by humans. The birds didn't ask for this to happen .. humans did it to them. Unless you happen to be a native North American species of bird, you get literally crapped on when it comes to any rights or protection .. there isn't any.

Give them (all three species) credit for being savvy enough and tough enough to have survived and thrived.

Yes, all those who belong to the national pigeon associations need to be active, responsible, and doing something .. to just pay your dues and expect the organization or someone else to take care of your problems is irresponsible and not overly bright in my book.

JMO ..

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Let's back up for a minute .. where the heck do you think all your racing, fancy, and performing breeds came from? From those "nasty" little commies over thousands of years. It's OK in my book to want to defend your personal favorite pigeons, but not at the expense of the feral pigeons. As with many things, it's humans who have caused the problems and not the birds or animals. Here in the U.S. the only non-protected species of wild birds are English House Sparrows, European Starlings, and feral pigeons .. why is that? Because they were all an introduced species to the North American Continent and intentionally brought here by humans. The birds didn't ask for this to happen .. humans did it to them. Unless you happen to be a native North American species of bird, you get literally crapped on when it comes to any rights or protection .. there isn't any.
> 
> Give them (all three species) credit for being savvy enough and tough enough to have survived and thrived.
> 
> ...


You go girl!


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Actually, pigeons have been living with humans so long and have been considered an "invasive species" in pretty much every continent that they have been introduced to. The belief is that they PROBABLY came from Asia somewhere, but nobody is sure, its been too long ago.
So, yes, the difference is that the government is protecting native birds that are on the protected list because at some point or another, all have been in danger of going extinct, MANY still are. This has never been the case with pigeons. I can't speak for the government, but when talking about the rights of a native species that could go extinct, compared to what is considered an invasive species, who do you think the government will side with?



> Hello Kindra, What are Our rights against the BOP ???? if any, who shall we talk to?????


Your rights are CLEARLY defined. NOBODY has the right to kill a BOP. You can go to http://www.fws.gov/ find your local office and talk to them if you would like.

Again, I'm REALLY not trying to attack anybody. But it seems many are not thinking of the larger picture. While I totally understand you want to fly your birds, think about this from the law's perspective. Why are birds of prey protected and pigeons are not?
Pigeons are so bad here in some states, that they WANT BOPs to come and take care of them, because they are literally causing disease. While I am sure yours are not, this is a real and very large problem. And I just don't see how the government is going to side with an invasive species on this.
To most, that would be like asking them to side with rats over elephants (who are all endangered). Rats are in overpopulating and causing disease in many areas.

Maybe if people try to see the WHOLE picture, and not just their own little world, it would help? It won't help YOUR birds, but maybe you won't be so angry that the goverment isn't protecting your birds?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ncfancypigeon said:


> Actually, pigeons have been living with humans so long and have been considered an "invasive species" in pretty much every continent that they have been introduced to. The belief is that they PROBABLY came from Asia somewhere, but nobody is sure, its been too long ago.
> So, yes, the difference is that the government is protecting native birds that are on the protected list because at some point or another, all have been in danger of going extinct, MANY still are. This has never been the case with pigeons. I can't speak for the government, but when talking about the rights of a native species that could go extinct, compared to what is considered an invasive species, who do you think the government will side with?
> 
> 
> ...


The only solution is to not fly our birds.
Please tell me which STATES are having a problem with DISEASE CAUSED by pigeons?


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I think that most of us on this forum agree that we aren't the ones to decide when an animal takes his last breath. 

Didn't the same designer that created the pigeons, create the hawks as well?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if when a hawk was hungry he just flew through "IN N OUT" for a hamburger.

I am always hoping for a solution to this problem where both birds can fly, and be protected.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kindra, pigeons do not spread disease any more than any bird. I expect that people come closer to getting a disease from their pet cats, dogs, etc. That is propaganda put out by the people who want to run the pigeons out of their cities.

Breeders or rehabbers run a greater chance of catching "pigeon lung disease" than the people who walk the streets of any city amongst pigeons. Yet all of us take that risk because we love pigeons....very much.

Pigeons do get disease, caused by having to drink impure water, bad food, etc. I wonder how many BOP's who eat these pigeons catch a disease such as canker, coccidiosis, paratyphoid? Yet, the BOP's health is not really considered because they're doing what the "city fathers" want them to do.....eradicate all the ferals.

Yes, I love ALL birds. I have written enough about "my" red shouldered hawk couple to probably bore people to death. Yet I can understand the anxiety that breeders go through every time they release pigeons to fly.

This morning, I had not put out any food for the crows or hawks and noticed one of the hawks standing over an empty food bowl. I immediately cut up some chicken and took it outside. He flew up to a telephone pole watching me while I put food in the dish. By the time I got back in the house he was already eating. I don't even know if I am doing him a disservice by feeding him. I only know I see a hungry bird and want to feed it.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Nicely stated, Maggie!


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

> Kindra, pigeons do not spread disease any more than any bird. I expect that people come closer to getting a disease from their pet cats, dogs, etc. That is propaganda put out by the people who want to run the pigeons out of their cities.


I am sorry that what I said was obviously taken wrong.
What I was trying to say is that this is a widely held belief, including by the government. 
I didn't say IIII think it is fact, it is just what is believed. If I believed it, I certainly would not have taken 20 of them in here!

But, I think most of the "that animal spreads disease" stuff is nonsense and just people's way of being against certain animals.

Guys, I didn't make these laws. I only spoke up because I deal with them in what I do. I have tried to fight many animal laws, and won on several, I'm just stating what I know will be the response, given experience.

It would be wonderful if ALL creatures could live in harmony, sadly, people usually make that impossible


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kindra, I took absolutely no offense at anything you said. The work you do in trying to save so many birds and animals speaks for itself. You're one of the good guys!


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## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

*Bird of Prey*

Thought ya'll would like to see my buddy. He visits almost everyday. He doesn't seem to be interested in pigeons. Likes fish and road kill best... He actually comes within 20 feet to take fish from us.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

What a beautiful friend you have there! Do you see him everyday?


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

*How Cool!*

I am so glad to see someone else has a Bald Eagle too! Here is a pic of the one who keeps watch over us! 

View attachment 8070


Aren't they just beautiful!!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

OOOOOhhh, those eagles are so beautiful! We don't have them in our neck of the woods though there are many at lakes in our area. You guys are so lucky.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

We only have hawks up here in ohio and the occasional falcon. Do you ever wonder where the Bald eagle gets its name?? I Don't have a clue


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

The word 'balde' in Old English meant white, and that is where it got its name. 

Those are absolutely AMAZING!!!
Yup, fish eaters, so not much to worry about, though they sure should keep the hawks away!
What amazes me is the sound they make!!!! That HUGE bird and it sounds like a song bird, amazing!


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

YUMMMMMMM!!!!!! im in such need of In n Out... why did you have to say that??????? please send me a Quad stack, strawberry shake, and two orders of animal styled frys.... Thanks PLEASE HELP!!!!!!


Feather said:


> I think that most of us on this forum agree that we aren't the ones to decide when an animal takes his last breath.
> 
> Didn't the same designer that created the pigeons, create the hawks as well?
> 
> ...


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hey TA, 
I didnt mean to disrespect the feral pigeons and the fanciers who raises them, i love them all, though going back to what ncFancy said this is what the Gov. and people who dont like the pigeons say everyday.... its not just the roller guys..... so i do appologize.... and To Ncfancy No capitals i was scared a bit...... lol Thanks everyone for your input on this topic, ive learned lots, and im turning my anger elsewhere, no more BOP talk.....


TAWhatley said:


> Let's back up for a minute .. where the heck do you think all your racing, fancy, and performing breeds came from? From those "nasty" little commies over thousands of years. It's OK in my book to want to defend your personal favorite pigeons, but not at the expense of the feral pigeons. As with many things, it's humans who have caused the problems and not the birds or animals. Here in the U.S. the only non-protected species of wild birds are English House Sparrows, European Starlings, and feral pigeons .. why is that? Because they were all an introduced species to the North American Continent and intentionally brought here by humans. The birds didn't ask for this to happen .. humans did it to them. Unless you happen to be a native North American species of bird, you get literally crapped on when it comes to any rights or protection .. there isn't any.
> 
> Give them (all three species) credit for being savvy enough and tough enough to have survived and thrived.
> 
> ...


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

I Have found Crows Help With My Problem With Hawks And Other BOP. Plus There is about 16 Acres from The Tree Line Where The Crows nest Before You Get To My House. The BOP Come Over The Tree Line And The Crows Come At Them So I Have Never lost A Bird To BOP. Crows Have Become My Very good Friends


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

all I can say to this is how can a roller be a roller if it cant fly and also how could you race pigeons if you didnt let them out of the coop  cant just keep everything locked up and say that its the safest thing you can do or you would lose half or more of the people that are called pigeon fanciers if you ask me ...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

blkramhemi said:


> Hey TA,
> I didnt mean to disrespect the feral pigeons and the fanciers who raises them, i love them all, though going back to what ncFancy said this is what the Gov. and people who dont like the pigeons say everyday.... its not just the roller guys..... so i do appologize.... and To Ncfancy No capitals i was scared a bit...... lol Thanks everyone for your input on this topic, ive learned lots, and im turning my anger elsewhere, no more BOP talk.....


You're cool, blkramhemi .. None of us "raise" ferals on purpose .. yes we DO raise them when they are orphaned babies and we DO help sick and injured feral pigeons just like we do the banded birds. Those of us who love pigeons tend to love all pigeons, and that includes ferals.

Great pics you posted today!

Terry


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## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Feather said:


> What a beautiful friend you have there! Do you see him everyday?


We do during the summer. Right now they are laying eggs and our big tree is a roost not a nesting site so we won't see them to often until the babies start to fly. During the summer I can whistle them right down to the fishing pier to catch the left overs when I throw them.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Hey Jennifer, 

1. How can i get some Crows to texas????? 
2. Can u legally house Crows???? is there an homing device with in them????? 
3. Any one here using the great horned owl statue???? how does it work for you????



horsesgot6 said:


> I Have found Crows Help With My Problem With Hawks And Other BOP. Plus There is about 16 Acres from The Tree Line Where The Crows nest Before You Get To My House. The BOP Come Over The Tree Line And The Crows Come At Them So I Have Never lost A Bird To BOP. Crows Have Become My Very good Friends


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

blkramhemi said:


> Hey Jennifer,
> 
> 1. How can i get some Crows to texas?????
> 2. Can u legally house Crows???? is there an homing device with in them?????
> 3. Any one here using the great horned owl statue???? how does it work for you????


1. You have plenty of crows in Texas .. 

2. No, you can't. You can, however, put out food for them .. soaked high quality dry dog food and hard boiled eggs .. they will come and eat it and love it.

3. The owl statues don't really work so save your money on that and feed the crows and mockingbirds (yes .. mockingbirds chase hawks also).

Terry


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> 1. You have plenty of crows in Texas ..
> 
> 2. No, you can't. You can, however, put out food for them .. soaked high quality dry dog food and hard boiled eggs .. they will come and eat it and love it.
> 
> ...


Thats the Key Feed Them And They Will Come. I feed The Crows here Eggs I Have laying Hens So I always Have Extra Eggs.


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## ncfancypigeon (Jan 10, 2008)

Crows are scavengers, they will eat most anything. If they know there is food, as was already said, they WILL come!
We had plenty of crows when I lived in Texas.
I used to throw the turkey carcass outside after Thanksgiving and the crows would eat the whole thing! It was amazing to watch!
Not to mention, crows are just incredibly cool to watch!
I've been studying up on corvids, wow, AMAZING animals! They have the cognitive ability of a gorilla or chimp, so don't think you will pull one over on them. LOL
Our little Fala (fish crow) has my son COMPLETELY trained! ROFL


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

Guys thanks for the info.... So know Great horned stat huh???? TA i have'nt seen a crow yet here.... we have the black small birds, and the bigger black buzzered bird were im located.... Im hearing the backyard bird feeder are keeping these guys around..... have you guys heard of the Disco ball keeping the hawks away???? i will put out the food, boiled eggs or just reg????


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

ok guys, ive googled crows in Texas, and theres three types 

1. grackle 
2. fish crow 
3. tamalicaus

and from the description..... i have grackles as residents, theyve done nothing but run.....  so im S.o.L.... well im locking up until spring.... if that doesnt work????


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

blkramhemi said:


> i will put out the food, boiled eggs or just reg????


Hard boiled eggs (shell and all .. you can make a small crack in the shell, and the crows will take it from there). Also a good quality dry dog food soaked in water until it is a bit soft works well for the crows.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

ncfancypigeon said:


> I used to throw the turkey carcass outside after Thanksgiving


LOL - and here we have been picking the meat off the turkey carcass for years for the little devils. Spoiled brats is what they are.

They also love hamburger and chicken. We buy the 50 lb. bags of dog food and keep some out most of the time for them. Try getting a bowl designated just for them - we use the bottom part of a planter (that the water drains into) especially for them to use - and keep it in the same place all the time. Be sure to keep it clean - we sterilize our pigeons' bath dishes and food dishes about every 3 days and clean the crow's dish at the same time.

If you put out bread, they will take the bread to the birdbath and soak it before they eat it. We give them all the eggs we remove from the aviaries and, particularly in the summer, see them making a fly-over to see if any are put out for them.

Our red-shouldered hawk couple is staying here more this winter than they ever have. It is such fun to watch the crows pull their tails because the hawks are "hogging" the food. The hawks put up with the crows for a while and then chase them across the yard.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> LOL - and here we have been picking the meat off the turkey carcass for years for the little devils. Spoiled brats is what they are.
> 
> They also love hamburger and chicken. We buy the 50 lb. bags of dog food and keep some out most of the time for them. Try getting a bowl designated just for them - we use the bottom part of a planter (that the water drains into) especially for them to use - and keep it in the same place all the time. Be sure to keep it clean - we sterilize our pigeons' bath dishes and food dishes about every 3 days and clean the crow's dish at the same time.
> 
> ...


You REALLY need to get a video camera there lady. WE want to watch all the fun too!!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee, the only problem is if I tried to do it outside they would fly away. They are very nervous when eating. They (the hawks) seem to be adjusting to us more and more though. One day this week the bowl was empty and one was standing over it looking hungry, so I took a chance and carried out some chicken. The hawk immediately flew, but to a nearby power pole and as soon as I came back in the house, flew back down and started eating.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Those crazy crows like "STEAK" too. One day I went outside to see a big ol piece of steak floating in our fountain. "Carne Asada" as a matter of fact.


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## Bear Foot Farm (Sep 9, 2007)

ward myers said:


> there is a design for a humane hawk trap ,& the hawk can then be relocated
> i will be doing some research on this subject myself & will post my findings
> thanks ward


Its illegal to interfere with a raptor in ANY way, so trapping one could lead to BIG trouble


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

Wow Bear Foot Farm You Have Some really Pretty Sheep On Your Web Page That One Picture With the Dog Loving On the baby Sheep Was So Cute. Very Nice looking Animals You Have. 
Welcome To Pigeon Talk And Have A Nice day.


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## blkramhemi (Sep 21, 2007)

TA.. Ive been meaning to tell you, i have a buddy that lives off of El toro rd and Muirlands.... and i have an uncle in-law in Rancho Santa Margarita Danny Marques, You may know him.... Long beach State Alum 
( Basketball ) in the 70's.... any who just thought ide let you know, lake forest was my stomping grounds...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

blkramhemi said:


> TA.. Ive been meaning to tell you, i have a buddy that lives off of El toro rd and Muirlands.... and i have an uncle in-law in Rancho Santa Margarita Danny Marques, You may know him.... Long beach State Alum
> ( Basketball ) in the 70's.... any who just thought ide let you know, lake forest was my stomping grounds...


Wow! Small world! I live off of Rockfield between El Toro and Los Alisos so am very close to your friend. I don't know Danny Marques.

Terry


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