# Sour crop



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

Is there a sticky on gassy crop or sour crop?  And How to do crop washes? Any pictures? Seem to be a problem that comes up after antibotic treatment or tube feeding.  It is a slow thing to go through all old threads for information. Or wait awhile for replies. Yet replies are very helpful.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

I have done crop washes - but I am vet trained and have the use of a theatre to do it in. My procedure is to sedate the bird but not anaesthetise as I need the bird to stand upright for me to prevent aspiration. A small slit is made in front of the crop and I run a tube down the throat and flush with saline. The contents are flushed out through the hole in the crop. My last flush is with metronidazole, then I stitch the crop.
I use antibiotics a lot and tube feeding is a regular procedure with me, but I have only had a couple of cases of sour crop with those in my care. Some have come in with it. You may find it beneficial to give a course of probiotics starting 24 hours after the last dose of antibiotics. This should go along way towards preventing post treatment problems.
Baytril is the worst offender for leaving a sterile crop and gut. I shudder to think about it as it leaves the system wide open to invasion by any nasties. Probiotics is a great help.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I sure have to agree with that. With the use of probiotics and ACV I have seen a big turnaround in my bird Windy who was suffering a serious case of Candida. And this improvement occurred before she was started on Nystatin. The Nystatin is being given now for a certainty of the elimination of the problem although my feeling is that it had come to be under control with ACV and Probiotics alone.

I don't know of any stickies that relate to sour crop though, sorry.

Cameron
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*Pigeons Forever and Jesus for Everlasting Life! *
I just love that line!


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Greetings*

Guys and gals, I thought Kaytee Baby bird food had probotics. Avc is used regularly in my loft. I just did a crop wash on a baby modena who is 3 weeks. I brought this baby in the house. Because he wasn't walking. I tubed kaytee and gave axoicillcin. He seem to peck up. The next day gas started formimg in the crop. So I flushed the crop. Put the baby back on the heating pad to warm up and common down.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Again 

I feel strongly about the effects that formula can have when crop feeding. I also had a problem that I attributed to formula, that is the onset of Candida which was not beforehand present. The problem with formula in my mind is that it is high in readily digested sugars that yeasts tend to like and using it can promote a yeast situation that could get out of hand if Probiotics are not in play to balance things out, fauna-wise.

Check the ingredients on the bag you are using. Mine is made up of rice, wheat and corn as the first three ingredients. Thing is, we don't typically feed rice or wheat (except in a minimal way) to our birds on a day to day basis. Even corn offerings are not that large a part of diet and you can see this by examining your pigeon-mix to see what is actually there.

Now I am using the Hagen's baby-bird feeding formula. And it is a very good product. But formula in the most general sense can cause some difficulties for a bird that already may have a mild yeast problem already ongoing. It is only for the fact that yeasts thrive on sugars and the sugars are so easy for yeasts to get at when they come in a liquid format. This won't happen in the same way with what are called "slow burning fuel". It is slow burning because it takes time to be fully digested. Formula on the other hand tends to go through the bird very, very quickly. You will no doubt have seen this anyway so no point going into that detail. But the point is that because of the speed of digestion and the fact it empties out so fast means that the yeasts have good and ready access to the sugars they thrive on. 

Result: gas and yeast outbreaks. 

Cameron
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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I never had any problems when using Kaytee for my two pet babies, but I added a probiotic and enzyme to the formula called "Total Flora". I myself do not like using formula for sick adult birds, I like to feed them seeds and keep their diet as much the same as before. Not only does the formula increase the chances of gas and yeast outbreaks, but the birds themselves, being sick have a lower resistance to bacteria, yeast and gas.

I have used Harrisons bird feeding formula which is also good, I will add a drop of colloidal silver at times to prevent any kind of yeast infection, sour crop, candidia. I always add extra probiotics to the formula, also.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't seem to have a problem with sour crop when I'm tube-feeding and I keep Medistatin (it's a powdered Nystatin) around for the handful of times that I've seen in four years. Don't know, Debbie, but if you're dealing with it fairly often then you probably oughta' keep some around. I kinda' doubt you wanna' perform the kind of minor surgery (doesn't seem so minor, does it?) that Nooti's talking about. 

Maybe there's a geographical difference that causes some of us to see it more and others less (like harder winters). I've fed cases and cases of Kaytee and just don't have to deal with it like some people report. I always want my tube-fed birds to drink plenty of water in between feedings and maybe the heat-lamp helps enforce that while also keeping their cages BONE dry. Water (dampness) in the environment is by far our worst enemy.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Debbie,

If Jedd's continues to be out of Medistatin, you may get Glostatin from Global's.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We have used Kaytee Hand Feeding Formula for Macaws for over 12 years and have experienced a few crop problems. Our vet usually prescribed Propulsid which does help but for about 3-4 years we've started using Benebac in the formula and so far it seems to do a good job.

Pidgey, I'm curious. You mentioned dampness being the major problem. In another thread (I think the science project one) there is some discussion about wet cloths and bowls of water around the baby pigeon to add moisture. Is this what you're talking about? Or, is it damp bedding or just general air moisture?

Thanks, Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Maggie,

I was talking primarily about dampness in the loft and floor. For my ferals, dampness in the actual ground. It doesn't apply so much to chicks in a nest in the house. What I mean is, bacteria and fungi don't multiply as much in a dry environment. The cool and humidity of a basement can cause mold to grow on a basement wall in an otherwise dry house, for instance.

My loft is the second floor of a detached garage. On nights when there's dew, it's still drier up there than on the ground floor of that same garage. Some materials draw moisture out of the air as well. Wood and poop certainly do. I can tell differences in the humidity by how the loft smells as well as how difficult it's going to be to scrape poop off the floor based on the same differences. When it's warmer and more humid, the dried poop is a lot softer and there's definitely a more pungent odor. That's going to have a large effect on the standing bacterial and fungal population of the floor. And the more population you've got, the easier it is for the birds to get sick, plain and simple.

All of us have different circumstances to deal with. Some folks rehab in their houses and don't maintain a loft of their own while others do. Different rules are ultimately going to apply to them versus someone with an outdoor aviary in a backyard that's covered in trees. The yearly rainfalls and average humidities of the various places have an effect as well.

The regional differences in our various experiences even sometimes play a part in the varying diagnoses that we sometimes submit for some of these emergency threads. 

I've read on a state-government site, for instance, that Phil's area really does have a greater problem with Trichomoniasis. That's probably due to the likelihood that their warmer weather doesn't kill off the Trichomonads in the standing water as much. Conversely, I doubt they have as much trouble with Paratyphoid. Have you ever tallied up the cases that you've run by type to see what the most prevalent problem is in your area?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Pidgey. Good information, as always.

When I get some time I will do a tally and see what I come up with. Right off the top I'd say worms/coccidiosis.

Thanks, Maggie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

damp areas that have less direct sunlight are more prone to have longer live bacteria dry and well light less problems. sour crop people used to use a little baking soda Do not run across sour crop to often. NOW canker partialy block the air way you notice a bloated crop Looking down the throat with a flashlight you can notice this. sour crop you can smell. Pull the feeding to clear the crop and little baking soda with water mix can clear it up. I was told years ago about chick starter for hand raiseing young birds. IT works great. And is easy to get. Mix it with water. in a bowel warm it in the microwave. stir it to a soupy type mix put it in the catheter syringe at a amount that will near fill the crop for the age of the young birds size. If at any time the mix is not fully digested you just give a little warm water and manipulate the crop lightly the mix loosens and is ok BUT if you mix it at a soupy mix it works great no problem.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Rain*

We have been getting rain every couple of days. So dampness could be a factor. Question - What would be used to open a wound on a scalped baby?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

upcd said:


> Question - What would be used to open a wound on a scalped baby?


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that... I saw on "Who's Online" that you were looking at an old thread regarding scalped pigeons. In fact, the bird shown just had a split in the skin covering the head that could have been sutured up and it would have been completely healed in about five days. They just didn't understand that.

What kind of problem do you have on this baby?

Pidgey


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Pidgey*

I was asking for Rena's baby. She siad it was scalped. I won't see it til after 3:30 today.  I had a baby west get scalped yesterday, so I put triple antibotic on his wound and put him and his parents in a seperate cage so they can feed him.  I know in the hostpital the use bendaine for cleaning.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's certainly different if the "scalping" is done by a bunch of peck wounds versus a single tear that can be sutured, sewn or taped back in place (the fresher, the better). You can get the stuff that you're talking about at any drugstore these days--it's Betadine unless you get the generic "10% Povidone" (something like that).

Pidgey


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Do you have your birds mixed Modenas are bad about scalping young birds. And I thought you had a few modenas also. reguler triple antbiotic ointment will work. Then let it scab over and after a while IF the scapling was not to deep the feathers will grow back.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I've had a number of scalped babies, some very bad, but they all did well with the application of triple antibiotic ointment such as Neosporin. All of them recovered fully and grew normal feathers, even those I feared might not survive.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*scalped*

My west is swellen. He jusrt got it on the head. Rena's got it on the head and back. We got it meded.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Debbie,

Silly me, but are you taking precautions??

fp


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Help me out*

What type of things can we do when babies are ready to leave the nest?  I am out in the cage many times in one day.  Everything is fine one day. Then you visit all the babies. And you look around to see where the baby went. And he got a boo boo. Not knowing if he entrered someones nest? Loft size 10 x 30 with 2 boxes per birds and many perches. However there are always ground nesters. What is a mama to do?


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Has*

Anyone had a sour crop live?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi upcd,


Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar ( get at any Health Food Store)...two Tablespoons of it, to a Gallon of (ideally, "good" purified, and not mere 'tap' ) Water...

Let this be the drinking Water for the youngster with the slow Crop, Sour Crop or Crop Stasis...

Let them otherwise fast for three days or so...

How 'full' is their Crop presently?


As to your question, the ones I had all did fine with this regimen...

This thread is a little confused and I can not tell if you are asking academically, or if you have a Pigeon suffering from this...and or if it is a young Pigeon or a Baby...

If so, would you supply some details?

Are it's parents raising it? Is a person raising it?

How old?

What kind of food has it had?

Has it had trauma of some kind? Or chill?

How is it fed?

On and on...

In other words, what led up to this, so far as you know, circumstantially?

"Damp" would hardly be a cause...or a reason...or even an association per-se.

Foreign objects in the Crop can cause it, and so can chill sometimes, and so can lots of other things.

How are the poops?

How full is the Crop?


Best wishes on this...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Greeting Phil*

At the time I was dealing with many chanelleges. Some with my flock and helping others out. So far I have had good luck treating the scalped babies. The reason I want to know more about this sour crop is I have lost two babies within 6 mos. Not sure it over my life time I could have lost more not knowing about it. The latest baby was a modena. I was able to flush the crop. But he had leg problems before the sour corp. I believe there was something esle going on. The materials from the flushing were pinky brown and foul. With the crop emty thier was no gas. I think even as fast as it was done with other things wrong it may have been to much for him. Also may have been to toxic to his little system. I need to understand this sour crop. so I can avoid it. There is different treatments out there wish is right? One say Nystsian, baking soda and ACV. 1st baby got Nystatian. 2nd baby a flush and AVC. Iam at a loss. I had also thought using Kaytee baby food was to be an easy thing. But this sour crop is making me reconsider this forumula. How do we avoid yeast. Should AVC be in the water all time? What about mixing with other meds? Like when using sulmet treatments or worming or vitimins or probotics or garlic. How do we keep it simple? Any ideas? I will and have been reading these post over and over trying to learn from them.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Often, a bad yeast infection signals that there's something else wrong to begin with because it's more of an opportunistic thing. That can be very tough to figure out and what you'd normally do is take the affected baby in to a vet for a "crop smear" where a Q-Tip is used to rub the choana, the esophagus and/or crop and examined in various ways under a microscope to try to identify the pathogen(s). A culture may be done as well which takes a few days.

In practice, you take your best guess if it's just one baby. When there're multiple cases, it's definitely time to use a vet.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi upcd,


Yes...a trip-to-the-Vet for a Crop Swab and fecal analysis is always a good idea to help us know what we are confronting.

Likely, there are more then one agent or syndrome which can make for a Gassy Crop or Crop stasis either as primary cause of problems, or as consequence of on-going problems.

I myself have never had any Crop problems with any (of the I suppose quite a few hundreds by now, of logistically orphanned, often hurt or contused, ill and so on of ) Babys I have raised.

Those Babys I have had, who had Crop problems when I got them, had been cared for by others who tube fed them K-T, or, who let the Babys get chilled also...or, were Wild/Feral Babys who had fome foreign object ( like a two inch long French-Fry in one example) in their Crop...( he threw it up on his own thank gooness! Then got well fast on the ACV-Water...)

Otherwise, while I have seen many Trichomoniasis Babys who were feral/wild, had a very few with Trichomoniasis and abcesses of the Crop ( no Candida though with them) but I have never seen a feral-wild Baby with Sour Crop or Crop Stasis or Candida.

I have seen some late juveniles, neophyte fliers, or adult Birds with sour Crop or Crop stasis or Candida, who had sustained injuries from collisions to their Crops/fronts of their bodys...

So, all of this led me to suppose that contusion may be implicated in some initial stasis of the Crop's muscles and functions, which can allow the food in it to stay in it too long...where, it can sour or begig to ferment.

Chill for youngsters or Babys, likewise...can slow their general body processes so that the contents of the Crop stay in there too long and sour or begin to ferment. The toxins which accrue from tis then effect the local functions of the Crop and it's passage to the Stomach...so a viscious circle of stasis is begun.

Hence, I let any suspected Crop Stasis Birds 'fast' for several days. Or, allow them some thin nutritious 'Soups' once the raw ACV-Water had had a couple days to be helping matters.

Foreign objects likewise...getting 'plugged' with a Seed or other large food item AFTER initial Candida phases have begun, can make things worse...as, the passage to the Stomach with Candida or Yeast or other fermenting/souring conditions, the mmuscles or delicate functions of the Crop and passage to the Stomach will become inactive and not wish to expand to let a large Seed or peanut or the likes, pass...

Before I found Pigeon Talk, I had no idea what was going on when I did occasionally get in an adult with a low, sodden non-emptying Crop with or without Gas...

But, I merely let them fast for three or four days or more even, and it tended to all pass. Maybe I and them were lucky, too.

The only Candida case I have lost in many years, had some nasty sharp brittle sections of Mimosa pods in his Crop and had also some abcess there ( from them I presumed) and I wanted to get them removed Surgically but could not get the right Vet in time. Otherwise I am sure he would have made it just fine.

I have used only the ACV-Water, once I found out about it's efficacy, and I have had no disappointments with it.

'Nystatin' ( or it's kin) is likely excellent in every way, but if one does not have it, and it is a usual Friday night or whatever, then instead of awiting, the ACV-Water can be easier to get the RAW Vinegar for, or to even make initially with regular Apple Cider Vinegar which any store will have untill one CAN get the "Raw" kind...and to make pronto...

K-T seems to make for a lot of Candida Babys, especially when tube fed, and I have never used it just "as is" even though almost every one is fed up with me saying so and insists it is FINE to use 'as is', or "BETTER"to use 'as-is' with no augmentation, and with feeding them nothing else "period".

I believe K-T's only appearent advantage is psychological for the caregiver, who "believes" that anything from a corporation MUST be good, and must in fact be BETTER than anything one can make themselves...and, that it saves them a little time in preperation, and saves them from having to think or to make a little effort or deference TO the Bird or Baby.

To me, overall, this is really sad.

I had better results, or just as good as the ideal results of K-T, all along, long before I ever heard of K-T, just useing fresh ground Seeds, plain 'Malto Meal', 'Nutrical', Graham Crackers made into powder, and odds and ends of other things I would add...and I never once had a Candida Baby or any Crop problems of any kind. And all the Babys grew splendidly and florished.

Look at it this way, if it was your Baby, would you just use some powder-in-a-can to feed them until they are 18 or something?

Or would you give them something with a little more real "food" in it?



Otherwise, review these several following key points, or at least what I feel are key points - 

- Babys must be kept "warm" untill they make their own heat adequately. Have these Candida Babys in fact been kept warm enough?

- Crop getting to empty before next feed : With tiny whole Seeds or Seed 'meal' or fresh ground Seeds and dried Berries ground with them, this is less of an issue I think, BUT, with "goo" slugs made from powder, with a shelf life of decades or something, it IS probably an important issue - have these Birds been fed again before their Crops have emptied from the last feeding?

- Adequate hydration: The powder foods can tend to make a 'glob' or slippery slug in the crop which gives off it's moisture, then, repells moisture. This can cause it to stay IN their Crop too long. Water must be offered ( tepid Water ideally) between meals, and, if one suspects a 'glob' or 'slug' in there, one massages their little Crop after giving them Water and trys to work the Water into the glob so it can become a little more dissolved, and then begin to pass better.

- Water: Babys should have, if possible, good, clean, "purified" Water, not 'tap' Water, and absolutely NOT "hot" tap water, which generally will be full of bacteria and anaerobes from one's hot water heater and pipes...

Stores which make purified Water on site, are a good recourse. Regular or fancy 'bottled' water is usually also full of bacterias or other organisms which a frail or compromised immune system should not have introduced into it.

Food with texture, natural whole foods...foods or formula made to have some variety of ingredients in it...in my opinion, will be far better for the Bird generally, than paste and mealy globs or slimey water repellent "slugs' laying in their Crops, of the same 'goo' day in day out.

Okay, I am ready to accept all sorts of censure and attacks and snubs and sneers again!

Lol..

But upcd, that's the deal as I understand it, and as I know of it, and as I deferentially elect for those Birds for whom I will be careing.

I have never once had any problems which others so often do have, from 'K-T' and it's also, usual, practice of being fed via a 'tube'.

How are you feeding these Babys?


Love, 

Well wishes...!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*thank you*

Phil, I am going to read this a few times then reply.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Kaytee*

I am beginning to think you are right about kaytee. I use to grind grain before and have no problem. I tried kaytee thinking it was better and faster than what I was doing. Is chick starer good to grind down and use?


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Phil, 

I think I understand everything that you said. I appreciate that you never had a bird develop the problem with Candida as you mentioned. I did though. And I am certain it was a result of prolonged crop feeding with formula. Granted my case was a bit unusual. I had a poisoned bird that was unable to feed herself for a very extended period of time. I just want all to realize that there is some risk to tube feeding, that Candida can be the outcome and that it is a legitimate risk. I have the certainty as the result of testing and swabs that Crop-Candida was the outcome of crop-feeding over time. This may not be usual but is possible and in my case was fact.

Hope you are having a good day by the way. 

Cameron
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*Pigeons Forever and Jesus for Everlasting life!*

(That's just for you Debbie, It's my all-time favourite sentence at pigeon-talk, I wish I had written it myself really. It's perfect!) Cameron


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

I HEARD ROWDYBUSH is better. I hope I spelled it right?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

upcd said:


> Is chick starer good to grind down and use?



Hi Debbie, 

Yes, chick starter is good to grind down and make into a paste with water, so are pigeon pellets. I think it's just important to take into consideration how old the babies you're feeding are. Of course when they are just a few days old, it isn't a good idea to feed them ground anything. The formulas work best if only used for a limited time period when they are quite young. Once they are 10-14 days old, they can be weaned off of any powdered formula and put onto a more substantial diet of ground chick starter, ground pigeon pellets or fresh ground seeds.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I don't think it's fair or right to blame the disease specifically on the formula (like Kaytee). Here you have a mass produced product that is sold to be used for hand-raising literally untold thousands of baby psittacines a year. They wouldn't be in business very long if all the baby birds died due to sour crop because they were formula-fed.

In most of the cases that we deal with, the baby is already starting out compromised--it's either already sick or hurt or has succumbed to exposure (parents aren't sitting on it and it's gotten real cold) or Heaven-only-knows some combination of the three. So, you're starting from a bad position to begin with which is an excellent circumstance for the development of sour crop, crop slowdown and/or crop stasis. Add to that the recent necropsy that someone did showing that the baby had a narrow place in the GI that wasn't permitting the passage of food--what medicine is going to help you there?

Anyhow, you, upcd, have a recurrent problem that may require that you begin using one method or the other and either prove or disprove its efficacy by virtue of success or failure until you find the one that works for you and your circumstances. And if you have a genetic problem that means that every now and then you're going to get a baby with a stricture of the GI (tight spot) then no medicine is going to work worth a poop.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Roudybush Squab Formula can be purchased direct from the company at http://www.roudybush.com

Terry


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

LOL Thanks Terry I figured I spelled it wrong!


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

My homers are just as bad at scalping as my Modenas. I just used neosporin. then I used Bene. poor baby it burned him badly. The bird wasnt just scalped by one to where I could of just closed it with tape or stitches, they got him real bad, but if you look at the picture in the Best Pet Photo Contest he is in there and he is doing good now. I think it was to deep so he probably will be a little bald but that why now he is my pet. Now for Debbie, I think the whole problem you have stems froming overcrowding, completely enclosed loft with no flight pen for them to sun or get fresh air. Then when you wash it out the dampness must stay there for along time before it drys. They need fresh air and sun. So when you make your new loft have a flight pen where they can sun. Like when I wash my loft out it is open fronted and drys quickly. Yours doesnt get any sun its completly enclosed with that tarp over it. Arent you glad you are getting another new loft! That will eliminate alot of the problems I think.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Problems*

It might not be chicken wire. but isn't there enought filter light for them with patio netting? I can open the sides or close them. I have shades and curtains. Kaytee is not to blame Just don't understand sour crop. One was a young roller 5-6 wks and the other was a modena 3-4 weeks. All may have had under laying problems.Roller finshed baytril and modena started amoxi. So more than likily antibotics and other factors were present. Babies can only take so much. Need homes for some birds. Wish my friend would take her home. May have to get tough. Come and get them or I'll drop them at your house or they can be sold. Just pray she takes her birds. I am try in find homes for 10 a week. But guess I have to tell people no more birds. Yes a new loft is blessing. Can't get it up quick enough. We have been having rain every couple of days. Get it dry and it is wet again. So when older birds get chilled do they suffer the same problem as youngtser?


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

John B said he has never had any make it. Personally I think you have something else going on as many birds come up sick, with many different symptons. I think the best thing to do is seperate all cocks , hens. Treat everyone. Tell that girl to get her birds, cut way down on your birds. Make sure everyone has been treated that shows sign of sick and the ones not Vaccinated them all anyways. then after treating sick bird give probiotics, vitamins make sure they are ALL healthy then put them together. Seoerate unmated cocks. Have a young bird pen only. You had birds coming and going and some had shots some not. I have never seen so many birds get sick like that. One thing I learned is when you get alot of birds from different sources feed stores and strays, and National people couldnmt sell. this is asking for trouble. The breeders should be in a cage with no extra cocks. That just causes broken eggs scalping fighting stress which all can cause the birds to get sick. If any of mine get sick from this day on I am seperating them and doing that and as you seen I have alot less confusion now that I have started weeding out unpaired birds and seperating. A little to late for the poor scalped baby but he will be alright. Too many extra cocks were in there. Your not in trouble I am trying to help, we will find out whats up. You will also have more lofts to put diffent birds it will be alot better. They have to have a place to be able to have full exposure to the sun and fresh air anytime they want. Have as much sunlight as possible in your new loft with one opened side facing south, and a flight pen. Im trying to help Debbie.


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

That would make a good Poll. Everyone report what problems they have had and what part of the country they are from. What size loft and how many birds?


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

But you have alot of extra birds in with pairs.


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Havent you had adults too with wing boils and respertory problems and dying for awhile? I know I spelled that wrong.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, I don't think it's fair or right to blame the disease specifically on the formula (like Kaytee). Here you have a mass produced product that is sold to be used for hand-raising literally untold thousands of baby psittacines a year. They wouldn't be in business very long if all the baby birds died due to sour crop because they were formula-fed.
> 
> Pidgey


Well I was of course referring first to an adult bird, the use of formula for an extended period of time, a possible pre-existing condition and lastly the variability of ingredients in a bag of formula. 

I was trying to apply my thinking from those circumstances back to a problem with a youngster. I realize this does not always work but it may still be a consideration when you don't know all the details of the patient.

Do I think formula feed or diet can lead to crop problems, even Candida. Yes I do. That idea is already well established. People suffering Candida for example typically alter there diet, sometimes radically to stem the effects of the yeast, even when Nystatin has been started. Candida can bloom with poor diet.

It is difficult to help sometimes with a case you read about, being as we are not all in the same room and can't see the birds or know the exact sequence of events that lead up to any partucular problem. It is a forum though where ten heads are usually better than one. I have just added my own two cents.

My issue with the formula I have is that the primary ingredient is rice. That is not typical pigeon food to my knowledge. I believe it is probably used because it is high in sugars and starches, it is relatively cheap, it is easily applied to mass production (unlike say potatoes that don't typically come in a dried format) and it is readily digestible by birds. Mass production sure does not ensure quality or the best of products. It usually means a trade off of variables like the cost of inputs, availability of ingredients and applicability to a wide range of birds. By it's very nature, a mass produced product is is the synthesis of compromises.

In any case I see your point. Like I said applying one situation or idea to someone elses problem does not always work. I am working here with what I already have seen and know, that's all. So it's a best guess sometimes.

All the best to you!

Cameron


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Pigeons*

I have had adults with wing boils which we treated with baytril. I hope that cured them. We also did a liquid treatment for the flock. Everything seem fine. But things started up again. Maybe we didn't heal the carrier. I have read thier are invisible carriers. It is a bird that looks good but is not. Retreating flock with liquid. Checking joints and will seperate anyone showing sickness. I need the other coup to make a full seperation.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Debbie, do you religiously hit everyone with Sal Bac (Salmonella vaccine)? That's an every-six-months kind of deal. You can have a constant influx of the pathogen due to mice that you can't control without seriously eliminating every little gap. So, if that's not practical, then you just never miss with the Sal Bac.

Pidgey


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*The Anwser*

Is Sal Bac and reduce numbers. I have advertisement out just pray for good homes.


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