# Another Surebet Bid



## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

this offer came out i think last sunday night at ipigeon. i told myself at an opening opening bid of $29,000 nobody's gonna bid on this. but guess what somebody did yesterday. even if i have the money to burn i won't spend my money on this bird. 

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=60625

here's the bid:

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPBidHistory.asp?AucID=60625




kalapati
San Diego
http://loftdekalapati.mypets.ws:81/Jview.htm


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I saw that listing a couple of days ago. Yes the price seems high. BUT people with money pay more for less I guess. I was reading the other day from a well known person in Holland. He stated the highest price he had charged was 150. dollarrs American for birds he has sold To certion people here in the US that have bought his birds. AND those birds are birds that people here in the US have been paying THOUSANDS of dollars a piece for young birds off them. I did not mention names as That can be left to figure out.. But It seems many import bird birds were first bought at a fare price then boosted for the american market. Also 1 bird was a gift bird from this person to an other Ands now the young sell for of 7 thousand a piece. Sure certion birds have brought there owner a decent price. But many were at first fare priced. Then I read where a person was selling a son off a certion bird For a good price because he had made 60 thousand dollars selling youngbirds off this bird in 1 year using the bull system. Remember say 6 birds raised off 1 pair If your lucky ! will be good. Buyer be aware for most any bird you buy. As until it shows you what it can do AND breed its a guessing game.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

yeap i was a bit shock too.... for that price...


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

OK
I may stur the pot up here a bit but here it goes. The first question is:
Why is this guy selling this bird? 

First case scenario. We all have been warned about those who are selling barn birds with a Sure Bet Ped. I do not think this the case, but if I were going to dish out 30K, I would want the DNA done.

Second case scenario. This guy bought the bird for 2K two years ago and is cashing in. Not bad buisiness, but the 28K profit would be a better long term breeding investment, if the bird was as good as he says it is. 

Third case scenario. The bird is useless as a breeder. My first question would be to give me names and numbers of winners with the offspring. If he could do that he would have a web page ie. VV or Ganus selling the offspring for 5k a piece. 

Another thought is to look at the bidder. Are they in cahoots together. Not to say this is dishonest, but it has been done in the auctions. 

Lastly, do you want to spend 30K on a marginal breeding son of a bird that was two weeks late from a race? I am sure a guy would be better off going to one of the top is not the top middle distance fliers in the world and buying a couple of pairs of his proven breeders for that 30K. Ask a guy like Warren who has had the investment to make the choice what he would do. Which offspring to put in the pools? It would be a no brainer for me. This somewhat like the Beatles vs. Dixie Midhnight Runners dilema. 

"Come on Ilean", get real here.

Randy

P.S. You could go to any futurity in the country and pick up the winner to futurity at the winners auction for the tax on 30K. Chances are that it just beat 10 Sure Bet Birds in the race.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Far as 2K birds I recently was given a whole young bird team of birds That there parents cost 2k a piece 2k a pair 1 k a peice and such. Because this person has chosen NOT to race any more But just enter 1 loft races I picked up 62 young birds. Most with very good pedigrees. golden mattens, topo, barcalona first, aske, marathon king, robin hood, da bull, super 73. and ect. These are grand children And great grand children And such. What I think ASKE sold for 50.000. In there pedigrees was 1 loft race winners on several That have won up to a hundred and forty thousand dollars. Will these birds after selecting certion ones for breeders do me any good I hope so. BUT THEY WERE FREE birds because I knew the right person at the right time. It is not really how much the bird cost as you see BUT what you do after you get the bird. Race birds are getting pretty high Because people put up web sites And promote and sell the birds At a cost that makes you think It must be pretty good. How many thousands of dollars would I have had to spend If I did not know this person well enough to have These birds given to me. Good though That some pay the price so others get a better price. I guess.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I would not be so sure somebody bid on this bird. I think some poeple will bid on their own birds to make it look like it is worth it and drive the price up. Not hard to do on the internet even if it is illegal. 

I have some of ganus's birds and what I think is weird on his pedigrees is there is alot of "this is the nicest bird out of this" " most beautiful bird from xxxx" "greatest bird" "bred for stock" but were are the race results of the bird? or most the birds in the pedigrees? Or maybe this is just on the birds I got?


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2008)

ohio I have to agree with you 100% on what you just said as I have been looking alot into pedigrees on alot of birds on actions these days just trying to see whats what and whos got good birds out there and I noticed that very same thing ....where are the race results of these great birds from such great familys lol to me just having the name dont mean a thing when they have that family maped out thru 4 generations and not one bird has a race record to speak of next to it  why any one would buy these birds just based on a name from 6 generations back is beyond me and why are people buying these birds from people that dont even race  its easy to see they just are breeding birds with a name that came with the birds they purchased and trying to make a buck ..that to me is just sad especially when there are people out there charging so much less for better birds that were actually raced and proven lol what a world we live in huh.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2008)

re lee you got yourself a bargain there where you cant go wrong,all your birds have to do now is prove themselves for your selection of whats a keeper and whats not .. its so hard to know whats worth putting your money into these days when you dont know these people selling birds first hand ..personally I have always managed to buy myself the dud birds lol but some day Im gonna get me some real flyers til then I will just have to enjoy my pretty but average flying birds lol


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Ohio

You hit the nail on the head. What are people buying when they buy a Ganus bird. Don't get me wrong, Ganus has brought great birds into the US. I have birds off of Ganus stock. With a Ganus purchase, other than those that have won races, you are buying a pedigree. A quality untested bird. My thoughts are a guy might be better off to find birds from an established family with a good race record then birds off of world champions bred with National Winners. Proven is more reliable than chance mating, especially when founding a loft. It is much easier to cross in a quality bird to a quality family and achieve , than to establish a quality family from all star matings.

Case in point "Ace" getting birds from Richard Clark. Richard's birds are an established family with an extensive race record. Ace has won the first year with these birds. Would he be better off buying young bird kits from Ganus? In my opinion no. Ace obtained birds from me. An established family by me, no, but birds down from established bloodlines and winning records. Bloodlines like Vic Miller and Bob Kinney. I have tested these birds for three years and they win. A guy would be wise to imulate what Ace did.

Another case would be that of Elton Dinga. He founded his loft on Schearlaekens birds as well as Verkamen birds. He purchased numerous birds from established families and won a bunch of futurities with the offspring.

Also, I have done a lot of detective work on the Ganus pedigrees that I have. I have noticed if the bird in the pedigree does not have a name, Ganus will put in place the sire, grandsire or best bird in the family. This is quite missleading. An example would be one side of a pedigree was down from Sootjens. He labeled the bird "Late Tom". The band numbers did not match up. My bet is that the bird is a offspring or related. I have also found that my Janssen brothers hen's pedigree has many bird names that do not match their pedigrees. When in doubt put a famous name on the pedigree. I was able to google all the band numbers and find out what birds were what, but still frustrating. One of the pedigrees was the Ikon, the world champion, but still the pedigree should be true. Things done to drive the price up I am sure. Funny thing is that Ganus pedigrees are the only ones a find this way. 

As for the birds you aquired, Ohio, I think that they sound like a great gift. You are right that the quality of the birds will now reflect what you do with them. Birds of that caliber are hard to come by. Just beware a hodge podge of quality is much more difficult to manage than an established family of birds. But if done right will pay great dividends.

One more example before I go would be that of Scott McCallister. He had a quality line of old Vandevelde birds. He looked for something to cross into his line. His goal was the Snowbird race. He looked to Vic Miller, Mr. Snowbird for birds. He purchased four of Vic's best, crossed them in and cashed his $54000 check for his 2001 Snowbird win a few years later. Knowing what you need is half the battle. I would probably start at the race schedule and work from there. 

Randy

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Just wanted to add something about the webpage comment. I just started a webpage. I am not out there to strike it rich selling pigeons. I just want to share the sport with others. Lovebirds, Redrose, and others have inspired me to start a page. Currently I have 42 birds in my loft, one just visiting. I started this season with 70 young birds flying across the country. Even if I wanted to be a bird broker, I would not have the time. If you look at my sale page, I have nothing to sell. All my birds bred me those 70 and until the race season is over all have the same chance to stay in the loft. 

For those who think the webpages cannot be for them, mine is costing me $5 a month and was created by me. Not hard to do. So if you want to share the sport with others ask Renee or drop me an email and I will tell you how you can get one. 

Randy


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Yep, everything is pretty crazy with pigeon sellers. I have noticed the same thing you have randy with the names on the ganus ped. I have also went through my peds reciently and noticed that there are many generations between the races results and the birds that are mine. This will be a consiteration when I decide what birds I want to keep for next year. I also wanted to say that when starting I thought there might be some corolation between good eyes and good birds but have since decided that to be total bull. The pair I talked about in my other post being the best pair I have right now and producing great results for me would have some bad eye sign. Go figure.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If you watch secrets of champions they bring something up about the throat. Now that makes more sense to me. A good throat, birds breathe better, get more oxygen etc. As for eye I have good eyes win and bad eyes win. 

Another thing that makes me cringe is the one pin tail thing. One of my best breeders might as well be a Japanese fan. I have never seen a bird that flies with its tail closed in a one pin manner. 

My thoughts here are that if a persons birds are less than par and they want to sell them to you, they must look for something besides race records to sell them. 

I have two birds directly off of Ganus birds and a few further down the line. Both have produced me winners. But no more than my OHF or CBS or Bob Kinney or Vic Miller birds. Ganus just markets better. I do also think there is a bit of bells and whistles that go with the sale of a Ganus bird. People keep buying them for two reasons, he keeps telling us how great they are (Marketing) and the race records are put on the front page of RPD (performance marketing).

Randy


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

*Pot Stirred*



hillfamilyloft said:


> OK
> I may stur the pot up here a bit but here it goes. The first question is:
> Why is this guy selling this bird?
> 
> ...


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

*Marginal breeding birds???*

Warren, Please educate some folks on here about the history or LUDO and his best breeder.. Did it not come as a stray "OUT OF THE SKY" Did it not go on to breed great birds??? Just because a bird has not raced or came home late does not affect its breeding ability. Nor does the fact the bird won races make it a breeder of winners. My best breeder in my loft never flew a race in his life but he has gone on to breed winners who in turn bred winners not just for me but others as well. Did all his children breed winners?? NO can anyone say every YB out of their best bird breeds winners? I dont think so. I have paid alot of money for Ganus birds out of proven race record winning birds that have NEVER produced a winner or its young has never produced a winner. I gave the birds away for NOTHING as that was what they were worth.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2008)

> My best breeder in my loft never flew a race in his life but he has gone on to breed winners who in turn bred winners not just for me but others as well. Did all his children breed winners?? NO can anyone say every YB out of their best bird breeds winners? I dont think so. I have paid alot of money for Ganus birds out of proven race record winning birds that have NEVER produced a winner or its young has never produced a winner. I gave the birds away for NOTHING as that was what they were worth.


 I think this was the point of why it would be hard to invest all that money on a bird , your words exactly "I have paid alot of money for Ganus birds out of proven race record winning birds that have NEVER produced a winner or its young has never produced a winner" none of these posts were aimed at bashing your mentor Im sure , they were just stating its a big pricewise investment on one bird when others have obtained birds that are just as good or almost as good for so much less . you have to realize everyone is entitled to their own opinions, thats a big part of an open discussion, to get every veiw one can and evaluate from there .


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks for clearing up the facts about the bird. 

I was not trying to offend anyone, just stating some scenarios about why the bird might be for sale. Some fanciers will purchase high dollar quality birds, breed from them form a couple a years and then get back their investment by selling them. If he needs the money form health issue, more power to him. The bird was a great investment then. 

One example of this is if you look a Pipa.be you will see that Marcel Sangers is selling off all his Koopman birds. He will most likely make enough money to carry him for a couple of years. This was a great investment for him. 

I do hope you do not think that I was attacking someones character here. I was just making point about reasons birds are for sale. 

Randy


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I don't think anyone was attacking this person. We were talking about stuff that goes on in the pigeon market in general. We were off topic for sure and not really even talking about this bird. Or I wasn't. Sorry if you thought so.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Invest in a proven producer for best results....*



whitesnmore said:


> Warren, Please educate some folks on here about the history or LUDO and his best breeder.. Did it not come as a stray "OUT OF THE SKY" Did it not go on to breed great birds??? Just because a bird has not raced or came home late does not affect its breeding ability. Nor does the fact the bird won races make it a breeder of winners. My best breeder in my loft never flew a race in his life but he has gone on to breed winners who in turn bred winners not just for me but others as well. Did all his children breed winners?? NO can anyone say every YB out of their best bird breeds winners? I dont think so. I have paid alot of money for Ganus birds out of proven race record winning birds that have NEVER produced a winner or its young has never produced a winner. I gave the birds away for NOTHING as that was what they were worth.


 Here you go Ken, Ludo took in a stray bird and later sold it to Mike Ganus.
Mike Ganus has sold offspring from this bird for years, current price for a YB $3000 see for yourself: http://ganusfamilyloft.com/goldenwitten2.htm

I would not say the bird was anywhere near Ludo's best, or else he would not have sold it.

I have solved the problem of paying thousands of dollars for unproven YB's, by waiting till the bird has actually produced some winners, and then trying to buy the bird then. Case in point, is my hen "First Lady" which is a 2002 daughter of the President. Direct uproven YB's off the President from Mike are $6000 see: http://ganusfamilyloft.com/president2.htm I purchased the bird after she had produced cash winner's and then approached the owner of the bird, and made him an offer he could not refuse. A nice chunk of my investment was returned to me after winning the pools and 1st Place capital prize in the 2007 Flamingo, after pairing her to my prize stud cock. 

Just like everyone else, you can purchase a dozen or so unproven YB's and maybe find a good one in the bunch, or you can save up your nickles and purchase a proven bird after it has produced in the breeding pen. With unproven YB's, it's like purchasing a lottery ticket, buy enough of them, and sooner or later you end up with a winner.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

kalapati said:


> this offer came out i think last sunday night at ipigeon. i told myself at an opening opening bid of $29,000 nobody's gonna bid on this. but guess what somebody did yesterday. even if i have the money to burn i won't spend my money on this bird.
> 
> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=60625
> 
> ...


As a side note, I have no idea what the real breeding worth of a bird like this might be. As a general rule, when I make an "Investment" of five figures, I want to see and hold the bird, to see if it has the traits that I want in my colony. Assuming this bird is everything it is said to be, then $30,000 could end up being a reasonable investment for a person who is able and prepared to market and sell some of the offspring, and to enter the rest in One Loft events. 

Right or wrong, most well heeled investors would most likely "spread their bets" by purchasing a larger number of breeders at lower prices. At this level of investment, most fanciers would have very high expectations. If things don't pan out, then a lot of other opportunities will have been lost. Then again, if a person has a few hundred thousand+ to "Invest" in this kind of asset catagory, then picking up a dozen or so like this bird, may provide them a good base upon which to build a family. Price is really a very relative issue. One man's perspective of what is "high priced" could be $150, while another person may think $150,000 is high priced. That is true with homes and automobiles and yes, even racing pigeons.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

*All cleared up*

Ok guys and gals, After re=reading the posts I see the error in my reading.  I read it to point that those were the reasons for this specific person selling and this bird being sold. My mistake. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just personally know Steve and it seemed he was being questioned as to character and quality. I would also defend anyone else I know in the same manner. 
Didn't mean to take us off subject.
Ken


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Whitesnmore

We all get heated in here from time to time. We value your honesty and strength to come to the defense of your friend. I do not think there is any one of us in here that has not said something to offend or hurt someone else. We are all pretty strong willed and opinionated in here. Heck, we are pigeon fliers. I am sure the Bird that is for sale is quality. 

Warren made a good point in what he looks for in a bird. I agree that your best investment would be a proven breeding pair. And not just one bird, but numerous winners. This premise is proven when a guy tries to buy a fanciers best pair. Most will not sell. The price gets mighty high before most part with their diamond pair. There has been a lot written about what is the best purchase. The majority of what I have seen is that the Breeding pair is more desirable than even the winner. The winner the next best thing and then brothers sisters, offspring etc. A guy might not fair so badly if he purchased an entire round of say Ludo's, Sangers, Thones, Verkerks etc. Assuming that one could even afford it, you might get some good birds out of the lot. 

Randy


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

*Agreed*

Randy, 
I agree the proven breeder is the best purchase for the money. Untested breeders may take several years to find the "hits". I had several breeders given to another flyer (I wont mention names but he started this thread) and just a second look by him made him put 2 birds together that I hadn't paired yet and they produced winners for him. Yet I had them in my breeding loft for several years to other mates that produced diploma winners but not at the level he was able to achieve. Their race record was OK but not outstanding that would make one say "I got to breed these" I personally have went thru 50 breeders plus. Out of them I have 8 pairs now that are outstanding and consistantly produce winners from 250-350 as YB's. Those 8 pairs are for sale for -----"NO amount of Money" until I am done flying or they become infertile. Warren has a very good feel for breeding birds and has the proof that his methods work. Ace also has a great eye for a good breeder and I think he will have a sucessful year next year with all the outstanding YB's and breeders he has been able to aquire this year. 
Ken


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

kalapati said:


> this offer came out i think last sunday night at ipigeon. i told myself at an opening opening bid of $29,000 nobody's gonna bid on this. but guess what somebody did yesterday. even if i have the money to burn i won't spend my money on this bird.
> 
> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=60625
> 
> ...



uh-oh... the guy backed out of the bid....says he could not come up with the money!

I would rather pay 29K for a proven producer (hopefully, we don't have to define "proven") or with a distinctive race record (and take my chances in the breeding pen).

For 29K, I could buy almost every legitimate race winner in 2008 one loft races and have access to a broader gene pool than what this single bird can offer.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hmm....could not come up with the money.......then why was he bidding in the first place ! 

I suspect, he never intended to purchase the bird, simply wanted to "mess" with the bidding process. I hope Fred publishes his name.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2008)

i noticed that he came down 6000$ on the price too  still way outta my price range thou


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

When it comes to the aspect of purchasing stock in this sport, there are the good and there are the bad. It's a matter of who we the buyer would believe in. I admit that I'm fairly new to the racing pigeon game, but not pigeons in general. But becoming involved in the racing aspect of homing pigeons has opened up my perspective on the hobby/sport altogether. As many of you have done, I have spent a lot of money acquiring "children off champions", and yet those birds have done nothing for me, either on the race sheet or in the breeding pens. Yet, birds that were given to me by friends and those birds have done great. Don't get me wrong, sometimes when you spend a lot of money to get a good bird or birds, you might hit the jackpot. And sometimes you won't. A free bird that does well is worth the price you obtain it for. And I can understand that when you spend a lot of money on a bird and it does not produce, you just feel like you were screwed out of the money you paid for it. In conclusion, in this sport, it's always a hit or miss. And many of us have hit it, or missed it.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I hate to beat a dead horse here but I was on Ipigeon a few minutes ago. I looked at all the birds and came to a conclusion. If a guy had $1000 and a half a brain he could found a loft from the birds on ipigeon. I found three Elton Dinga birds for $250 each. Not a bid on them. In my opinion Elton was the best futurity and one loft flier last year. The three are off Vercammen imports. Vercammen is the top pool winner in Belgium and one of the best. Another little bird I found was from Ken Christopher. Equal first in the Vegas race and top 10 in the 400 mile race. $300 for a super 73 Klak bird with wins. Found a 100 dollar grandson of Tomba. 

It makes me wonder

Randy


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

OK i don't know much about the racing world, but all i can say is, Investing 30 grand in a bird should only be done by someone who knows a lot. Like anything can happen the next day, anything is possible, someone breaks in, steals your bird, you close the loft door behind you, not lock, and its windy and the door to your loft opens, and some of your best birds, fly out and fly away for ever never to return, trust me it has happened before, the bird suddenly falls sick. The possibilities are endless. No one, and i mean no one can 100% guarantee that this bird will live for a week or that bird will live for a month or a year and so on. Who knows maybe somethings happening to one of my birds right now? Anything can happen. And the guys here on PT are right. What if the bird is just an ordinary bird? What if its not really a awesome stud? Sure the breeder, has been a proven star in the past years but you can never be sure without proof. We see proof, we believe. Thats how this world runs now. If i see some proof in front of me showing a couple dozen 1st place wins in races then i'll agree with you eyes closed. But 30 grand is a big amount. Should you take that 30 grand to pakistan or India, and get more than a dozen pigeons, the best in the country and import them here, i'm sure that would be a better deal. But who am i to make assumptions, being 15 and just getting 100% serious into pigeons.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

So would you guys say that the bids for the other Sure Bet birds are worth it? The quadruple-inbred hen? The triple-inbred great granddaughter crossed with the Beakarts?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well I have gone over the posts in this thread and will add my two cents . Most of the posts go off ranting about imports and Ganus. Now I suggest that you all take a look at the pedigree of the sire. You will see that this is not an import its a bird that Ganus bought from Greg Mc Knight of Anaheim California the last import use in the sires line was 10 years ago, so in my book the sire is a home grown bird.In that pedigree i also see a bird from Sam Mc Clary.Both of these men are well known here in So Calif.,and both have bred the BECKEART family. Both have also brought in new blood from time to time Greg used Mulemans and Sam use Persoons.Well thats my two cents worth. *GEORGE


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I am going to side with Warren on this one. An unproven bird only because it is of the in-craze is not worth 30K or 1K for that matter. 

Earlier I pointed out Elton Dinga's birds. The reason I thought they would be a better purchase, is not because they are race winners, but because they are from a winning family. Elton Just won 3rd in the ESPO Challenge with the same bloodline. Vercammen wins with this bloodline. I think Crazy Al wins with these birds. The other bird I suggested was a race winner. 

My point here is that a guy has a better probability of getting quality birds if off of proven racers or families. A Sure-Bet unproven cross may make a good breeder, but you never know. 30K on this bird is definitely gambling. In my opinion, just a bet not a Sure-Bet. 

Randy


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

So do you guys know Steve Mistler? I don't know the guy, so that's why I'm asking all of you. Is he reputable? I don't mean to sound offensive, but I'm just wondering.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I am going to side with Warren on this one. An unproven bird only because it is of the in-craze is not worth 30K or 1K for that matter.....
> 
> Randy



Randy !! 

Are you now leaning towards the dark side ? 

I get calls and emails all the time, from people who are not satisfied when I offer up the explanation of "What are your Birds out of ?"....when I say "Smith's".....

Must be some sort of American thing.....at any rate you mention " Elton Dinga's " birds, and I have seen and held some of them. We purchased some of them we did, and they are excellent birds ! No question about it. Crossed some with the "Smith's" and as expected race winners result. Elton is still new to the game, so the prices are still *very *reasonable. In time, I am sure "inflation" will kick in, just like some other well known names.

My loft manager and partner Lew Burns has said many times, that it is extremely difficult to buy "good" Birds....when he first told me this, I had my doubts...but now after a number of years, I think I am beginning to understand what he means. If all it took was a big fat wallet, then all the rich guys would own all the really good birds. For most of us, acquiring a really "good" bird, means you have to breed one yourself. If you happen to accidently purchase a "good" pigeon from some well known and advertized USA pigeon merchants, they often will attempt to purchase it back for many times what you paid for it. Had they known it was really "good" they would have kept it themselves. 

You buy ten birds at very high prices, a good one turns up in the bunch, and they will offer 3x's what you paid for it.....for that to work for you, you would need to get perhaps 20x's what you paid for it. Because you may have to sort through another 20 high priced birds to find another good one.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

The starting bid dropped from 23K to 19K. How low do you think Steve will go? Would it be good to buy if the price dropped to 5K?


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