# Terrible, awful weekend.



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Well this has been an awful weekend. There is an apparent breakout of what I think must be paratyphoid in my tent aviary. I noticed Friday night after Santa Cruz bird died that one other was looking not well. His keel was sticking out a bit and I brought him in and put him on heat and also started 4-in-1 from Foys(treats Canker, E.Coli, Paratyphoid, and Coccidiosis). There is no canker (I also checked Santa Cruz's beak for it after he died). Saturday no one else looked ill but Saturday night I had two looking bad and brought them in. 

My avian vet is gone until Friday, OF COURSE, though I have never used him for birds, he has helped my rats and does have bird experience. I called other vets and those that were open were at best, unhelpful, and at worst, rude and pissed me off more. Here I am with an animal that needs help but it's "just a pigeon", one girl I talked to thought I was joking. Same basic answer from the emergency vet. I had a vet in nearby Petaluma who treated a pigeon for me years ago and she is no longer practicing there. Of course Sunday and today everything is closed but the emergency vets, who essentially cannot or are not willing to help. I mean, they said they would see one of them, but the reluctance in the receptionist's voices alone at both places makes me not want to even take one of my precious birds there to have who knows what kind of care. 

Sunday morning two young birds were dead that had looked fine the night before. Today there were two more young birds dead. The ones I have inside are much better and seem to be responding well to the 4-in-1. I started the other aviaries on it yesterday. I am keeping them closed and heated to help. I am so worried and sick about this I can't even tell you. I've never lost birds like this before. At Foy's they told me to keep using the 4-in-1 and I've ordered more. A friend from the feed store says he's used it on his pigeons for the exact same symptoms, he thinks it is paratyphoid, he has free-fliers and has dealt with it before and used the 4-in-1 from Foys (he's actually the one who gave it to me earlier this year as he had extra). 

Is there anything else I can do?? I am encouraged that the ones inside are doing so much better. . .I mean they looked really bad very suddenly and I was sure they would die. After just a few days of medicine they are no longer fluffed up, they are eating with gusto, preening, and starting to cause a ruckus about being shut in a cage. One of the ones that died this morning, I just held him for the longest time and there was nothing I could do for him but keep him warm. It is such an awful thing to have a pet dying and not be able to help. If he was a parrot or even a parakeet, I could take him to the emergency vet and have them see him, but no he is a _pigeon_ and therefore apparently doesn't matter to them. I guess it makes no difference as I have the proper medication and they are responding to it. I didn't know it worked so quickly. 

It says that some pigeons are carriers of paratyphoid and can be unaffected by it but get other pigeons sick. The six birds I took from Jen three weeks ago were all vet-checked, and if one of them was a carrier, I would think the others would have been sick that came with it. But no one in the wire aviary is sick, and three of the six pigeons went into there. The only other one is Pidgy, who lived by herself before coming here two weeks ago. But she is also in the wire aviary. I'm thinking that I might even have brought it home from being around the pigeons at the feed store. Can I have carried it home with me somehow? Please keep my poor pijies in your thoughts, and prayers if you are spiritual. At the moment all are looking good. I am just hoping so much not to lose another one. This whole thing is just rotten.   

And to top it off, I just go out to take out the garbage, and some smart alec cat has left a dead baby sparrow on the porch. Argh.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Maryjane, 

I'm very sorry for your sudden and terrible losses. Amoxicillan or baytril are your best choices if paratyphoid is suspected. Another "unconfirmed" remedy is called sal bac and acquired from Foys. It's supposedly a natural "sugar" compound that works against these bacteria, and has good results according to Foy's website.

Otherwise, I would do as you have done, separate known sick birds from your flock immediately and put them in quarantine and give heat as you're doing.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Sorry, I'm not sure if Sal bac is what I meant and I just looked and it doesn't appear that the stuff I had, is still available anymore.

Baytril or amoxi are still your best bet otherwise though.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Thanks Brad, I have 500mg capsules of Cephalexin we just got for the dog. It is an antibiotic. Is there any way to use some of that? If so what dosage? I can break the capsules open and obviously get more for the dog. I will see if the feed store has Baytril too. Also I'm wondering if this is a chicken disease too. Should I treat Fussy Gussy? Or is it just a pigeon illness? Thanks/


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Oh, Maryjane I am so sorry to hear this terrible news. You must be heartsick. I know I would be.

Hope you can find a vet who will diagnose & help you treat the sick ones. Don't give up - even if the receptionists are rude, just keep making calls until you find someone with compassion. (i went through the same thing recently with one of my little guys and after many, many calls i found someone really good)

I wish I had some more helpful advice. Hang in there.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

maryjane said:


> Thanks Brad, I have 500mg capsules of Cephalexin we just got for the dog. It is an antibiotic. Is there any way to use some of that? If so what dosage? I can break the capsules open and obviously get more for the dog. I will see if the feed store has Baytril too. Also I'm wondering if this is a chicken disease too. Should I treat Fussy Gussy? Or is it just a pigeon illness? Thanks/


Hi Maryjane, 

I'm really not sure about the Cephalaxin, I think that is an antibiotic used to treat various respiratory problems, though.

And concerning worries about Fussy Gussy transmitting something to the pigeons, your guess is as good as mine. I do know however that there is always a possibility of "cross contamination" effect when more than one species is housed with another. Chickens and pigeons seem to be especially likely to spreading diseases to one another.

Again, what you are doing is correct...separate known sick birds immediately from the healthy ones. Put them on heat and try to get either Baytril or Amoxicillan to start with and from from my standpoint.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

I hope this link is helpful to you. I am so very sorry. You might have trouble finding Baytril at a feed store or Pigeon supply, although your verterinaian would have it.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I have Pro-Bios, Brad, is that what you were thinking of? It says it helps to reveal things like paratyphoid and coccidis (sp?). Should I add that to the water as well?

Thank you Karen, it is frustrating with the vet thing. Hopefully I can manage with these meds I have. My vet will be back Friday.  The thing with the other vets is, if they are so reluctant to see a pigeon, I worry about the kind of care that would be provided, or even that they would really help, and not just tell me something simple to get me out of there with my pigeon.  It's such a shame it is this way.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Maryjane, I am so, so sorry to read this. Your pigeons just seem like "our" pigeons and through your wonderful pictures I have come to know and love all of them. 

Has the one you have inside exhibited any falling over or unsteadiness in its legs? It sometimes mimics PMV. Just to be on the safe side I would not leave any water in its cage that it could fall into.

If you can get Sulmet - maybe from a feed store - that could help because it too treats a number of diseases like coccidiosis and paratyphoid.

Please know that I will be thinking of you and your babies.


About the Pro-Bios - we use that as a probiotic. I don't know that it has any other function that putting good gut bacteria in birds.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

so sorry with all you are going through right now. Hope birds all turn around and get better soon.
Daryl


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## Hillybean (Oct 30, 2005)

Aww sending comforting hugs MJ.
I am so sorry that you have sick little ones (the pigeons). 

I know what it is like to need a vet, and to have them all closed or not willing to see the animal  . It doesn't help and just makes you more upset and mad.

Please keep us posted on how the ones indoors do.
Sending good vibes, healing thoughts, prayers, and comforting hugs.
-Hilly


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## Insomniac (Aug 21, 2007)

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. I hope everything turns out okay and that the rest of your pijies will be fine.  Take care!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Maryjayne, I am so sorry! Are you treating all the pigeons with 4 in 1?

This must be a nightmare for you. I found two of my long term resident hens dead, side by side, in August. I was devastated and since then have entered the aviary with trepidation rather than pleasure.

Could it be Young Bird Sickness? There are other conditions that also affect young pigeons more often than older ones, perhaps because their immune systems are still developing. Are the pigeons that died hens, cocks or some of each? According to what I have read paratyphoid seems to affect the two sexes differently.

Cynthia


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Oh Maryjane, 
I was so sorry to hear about what is happening to your birds. I hope they respond to the meds you are able to give them. Your vet will most likely be able to sort this out before you loose any more, but Friday seems like a long way off. Know my thoughts and healing prayers are with you and all your beautiful birds.

Margaret


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think the active ingredient in the 4-in-1 is Furaltadone and we don't have near as much information available about it as we do several other medications. Baytril is the only one that I keep in my head as being able to clear the carrier state of Paratyphoid. 

Sometimes you can get a vet to simply go along with you and prescribe Baytril, it's dosed at a few different protocols. The oldest and longest running was 15 mg/kg, PO, BID and there's a 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID and then there's the actual Baytril site:

http://www.baytril.com/index.php/fuseaction/download/lrn_file/kap8.pdf

...which (if you scroll down to page 6) gives it at 10-20 mg/kg, PO, q24h

In a pinch, you might be able to print that out, take it to your vet and tell them that some folks well-acquainted with pigeons suggested that and maybe he or she would go for it. You probably have the time to order some online at this point, though.

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Maryjane, I'm so very sorry to hear this.  What a terrible blow. If Paratyphoid, Baytril is definitely the drug of choice for both sick individuals and the flock. It's become hard to find, but you might be able to find generics such as Enroflaxan from the pigeon supplies. 

Is there any chance rats or mice have gained access to your pigeon enclosures? Because they are the prime suspects for carrying paratyphoid. And you know they can squeeze through very small openings.

I know it's probably too far for you, but we have an excellent avian vet in Cupertino if you're able to drive that far. Let me know if you want his contact info.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I hope and pray you won't have any more losses. This is a terrible situation, I am so sorry you have to go through this and your poor birds.
I am glad they are responding to the 4 in 1. Keep on doing what you're doing.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

YIKES, MJ! Just read your thread!

I am SOOOO sorry to hear about your birds!

Hopefully, with what you are doing and the advice here, you will be able to keep things in check until your Vet gets back!!

I sure hope Fussy Gussy will be OK too!!

LOVE AND HUGS TO ALL!!! We will look forward to more promising news!!

Shi
& Squeaks


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## Jazicat (Oct 31, 2005)

MaryJane, I am in Santa Rosa and have amoxicillan in the house. They are 500mg capsules and there are about 30 of them. If you want them they are yours.

I am saying prayers and sending healing thoughts.

Jess


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your current situation!  

But how can a vet refuse to see a patient that's being brought in? So what if it is a pigeon.  

Friday seems very far away and your birds sound like they need something quick. 

Sending positive thoughts ...

Suzanna


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry about all this MJ. What a terrible shame. If it is paratyphoid and you need Baytril .. then Ciprofloxacin is an alternative. 

Terry


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## Boni Birds (Mar 19, 2007)

I am so very sorry about your birds! I do know what it like to hold a pet in your hands, and there seems to be nothing you can do- but make them comfortable. Thoughts and prayers to all your coops so sorry -MaryJane


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Try Dr. Jereb at North Park Veternary Clinic, he's treated my pigeons on an individual basis for years, he's a certified avian vet and is of far better quality than the Vets in SF or Marin counties (I have driven through Marin and SF to take a bird to him). His number is 707-585-2899.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

*MUCH Better today!!*

Thanks everyone......Today everyone is looking VERY well and none were dead. I am so glad!!!! Cynthia, I don't know if it is Young Bird Disease, as Santa Cruz Bird and one other I lost were both at least a few years old.  They were a mix of females and males that I lost. Pidgey, thank you as always for your quick response and help with med. info. Jazicat, I really appreciate your offer of antibiotics. If any of them start looking bad I may take you up on that, if it is better than the Cephalexin that I have on hand. BirdMom, the only rats nearby are my pet rats and they are all healthy as a horse. They don't have any contact with the aviaries though. The wiring on the aviary is too small to allow for mice or rats either. But thank you for bringing it up, all ideas are definitely appreciated! Thank you too for your vet's name. Suzanna, it's not that the vets necessarily refused to see them, but the ones I called (before I got frustrated with calling so many and getting similar answers) were just sucha turn-off due to their attitudes about pigeons. JGregg, thanks for the number for your vet as well. He sounds like the closest and best vet at the moment. If I have any start looking sick again, I will call him right away. 

A few things I thought of. . .can I still add their raw ACV to their water? What about garlic? And does anyone know if a "carrier" of a disease can be treated and then is no longer a carrier? Or will they be a carrier forever? 

I can't tell you how I appreciate all of your words and thoughts and help. I don't know what I would do without this site! I was so glad to get up and see everyone looking well this morning, and couldn't wait to log on and tell you all. The sun is also shining and even warm, so they are all enjoying it very much. I am of course keeping up with the medicine treatment and let's hope for the best!!! Thanks again, from the bottom of my heart.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT NEWS, MaryJane!!!

Thank you for letting us know!

We will all look forward to more positive updates!

Love, Hugs and Scritches to ALL

Shi & Squeaks


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't think there's any harm in continuing with the ACV and garlic; in fact, it should be beneficial. 

If it _was_ paratyphoid, I've read that it's possible to clear it by putting the whole flock on Baytril. We had an outbreak five years ago. Our mature birds didn't get sick, but we lost nearly all our babies. Now I don't know 100% for certain that's what it was, but the symptoms were consistent with paratyphoid. We did have one of the chicks that died necropsied, but all they could tell us was that it died from a massive bacterial infection; they couldn't narrow it down to what organism caused the infection without us paying even more. We assumed it was paratyphoid because we hadn't vaccinated our pigeons at that point and rats had gained entrance to our old aviary via damaged vent screens (we've since fixed them). The vet we were seeing at the time said birds that had it could be carriers for life, etc., so I was very worried. I put the whole flock on Baytril (which was easy to get at that time) and later vaccinated them with Sal-Bac. We have not had a case since, so I doubt anyone remained a carrier for life. 

Your pigeons might not even have had paratyphoid; it could have been something else, too, such as a nasty strain of e-coli. We've had a few weird infections that had even the vet stumped. 

Anyway, I'm so glad your pigeons are doing better and I hope all will soon be well again with your babies. I can tell you love them dearly and take excellent care of them.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Today everyone is still looking just fine. I am so relieved!! How do they get e. coli out of curiosity? Bernadette and Snowflake the dove are the only ones inside now. . .Bernadette is just fine but was looking cold the other night so I brought her in and she is quite enjoying her heating pad and having the place all to herself! If I had favorites, ahem, she would be one of them for sure. She is such a little sweetie. And when she gets in the dish to eat, she really goes for it! With her tiny little almost non-existent beak, she sure does well. She is scattering food everywhere right now and eyeing the big bath dish I set out for her. It's funny that she's so quiet and timid in the aviary, but in my room she is large and in charge.  Snowflake the dove's feathers are starting to show up so hopefully they will grow in fast and she can be back with NotIvan soon. I don't want to put him in with her just in case he decides to drive her and she has no feathers already on her back.  So......so far, so good!!!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That's great news, MJ!


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

MJ,

Just read that all is well. Hooray, I am so glad you haven't lost any more and the rest are in good shape.

Margaret


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

MJ, I just caught this thread and I am so shocked and sad to hear about your birds!   

But, it seems you caught it in time and things are looking up already, what a relief! 

It sounds like Bernadette wants to be a house birdie!!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Still doing great today, with none ill and none dead. YAY!!! Yes, Bernadette would love to be a house pijie hehe. I am so fond of her and her silly personality, she just loves to be talked to and preens and gets really silly. That combined with her griffiny look is too cute. She is the one the feed store owner gave to me because she was "so ugly no one would buy her." I think she's beautiful, warts on her rump and all.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She is beautiful. How could anybody say she is "ugly"?

Reti


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## Roxy (Nov 1, 2007)

I have read this whole thread, what a hard time for you and your birds! It sounds like things are improving though, that is good! 
What a cute pigeon! Is something wrong with her beak or is she a special species?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> She is beautiful. How could anybody say she is "ugly"?
> 
> Reti


I agree!! She is cute as a button!!

Wishing all the best with love, hugs and scritches!!

Shi & Squeaks


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## nbdyuknow (Apr 10, 2007)

i think she is beautiful also.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

I'm so glad things are looking up  What a rough time you all went / are going through.

Like "they" say -- beautiful is in the eye of the beholder. And this eye thinks she's one cute pijie


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

So sorry for your losses, Maryjane!

Just read from the beginning all the posts! UGH!

I hope that the good news continues for the rest of your cutie pies!

Many hugs and Prayers sent from our coop to yours!!!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Hey Roxy, Bernadette is a Satinette. Sats have pretty small beaks to begin with, and some of them like Bernadette have almost non-existent beaks.  A lot of them have trouble feeding babies and their babies need to be fostered out to bigger beaked parents.  Bernadette doesn't have any babies so it is a moot point hehe. Thanks for everyone's moral support as usual, they seem to be recovered and I'll finish the medicine cycle and hope for the best!! 

ps) Bernadette is blushing over all of your comments and being pretty silly about it.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Maryjane,

I'm glad things are getting back to normal and things are looking up. I'm sorry to hear of this outbreak and of your losses. I hope you can relax a bit now.


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