# jujubean making squeaking sounds



## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

So today i got home from work and went to say hello to Jujubean and when he flew around the room he was making a squeaking sounds,almost like high pitched wheezing when he was breathing but only when flying.I made a vet appointment for Saturday at 2pm(i want to go today but have to wait for my paycheck)so hell be taking care of.Im wondering if anyone knows what this is? Could it be an upper respiratory infection? Anyone with input would be greatim so thankful i started my new job recently and can afford the vet on Saturday,but i just hope he will be ok,what could this be?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kailey, after flying, when he lands, is his breathing labored or have sounds that are audible? If you hold him and place your ear on his back, any noises? When he is completely calm and at rest can you count how many breaths he takes in one minutes' time? Can you open his mouth and check his throat and glottis (wind pipe opening) to make sure everything is clear and there is no swelling or growths. Anything else, now that you are aware something may be going on, eating a little less, droppings a little off, not as lively as normal and so on? Do you still have the Sulmet you bought a while back?

Karyn


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

hello karyn! thank you for replaying so fast.

so i cannot hear any sounds when im holding him.when i put my ear to his back i hear his heart beating really fast and some breathing.i really dont hear anything odd,his throught looks clear and normal.This wheezing when flying is on and off,when i checked this time he wasn't making the sound but im still concerned. i do still have the sulmet . And about how many times he breathes....i will get back to you on that in a while,im letting him calm down from being handled a few minutes ago.

He has been eating well and acting normal(i.e attacking me and took a bath today,should i still be concerned?still go to the vet? i guess im worried he could be sick and go downhill fast.

also about the labored breathing,when they are on the nest i can see them moving when they breath,like going up and down when breathing....idk if thats normal,thats what iv seen for labored breathing i think.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hearing sounds when breathing from one of these guys should always be a concern. Good to know nothing strikes you as being way off and he is acting normal. Give him a full 1/2 hour, then count his breaths, in and out count as one, or as you said up and down. Let's hold off on any treatment, unless his breath count is way off, and see how he is doing in the morning, keep the vet appointment for now.

Karyn


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

ok so i went back in to check on them and listen,i put bunnys beak right up to my ear and i can hear very slight wheezing........i could not hear this with jujubean before because he is feisty and will bite me if i put his face to my head,but i tried it again with him and held his beak tip for a moment so he couldn't bite me. i can hear a slight weez with him too,it is heard to hear and very faint but it is there........im thinking about taking both of them in to the vet maybe.ill get back to you with the breath count soon.


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

ok ,im sorry about disappearing,my internet got shut off for a few days.

so today jujubean had his vet appt.The doc said he looks great aside from a slight weez and she wanted to do a gram stain,so we did.She came back and told us he has 2 infections....... i think she said something like mega fungus and negative gram stain.So the doctor put juju on baytril and terbinafine for the next 14 days.the doctor said 1 of 2 of these infections is contagious, that means bunny needs to go in......this whole thing cost me about 180$ so i cant bring her in until i get paid in 7 days which kills me!,she is acting fine overall.i like the vet we went to but it was kinda rushed...we were in and out in 40 minutes.anyway thankfully we got juju taking care of and bunny will be in for meds in a week.

i was scared when she told me this,im worried for juju and i hope these meds clear everything up.does anyone know anymore info about this stuff?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kailey, the name you mention "mega fungus" is not really something I have heard before, could you mean avian gastric yeast (aka megabactria) or Aspergillus. The terbinafine is a pretty powerful anti-fungal med, do you have more details on the method she used to diagnose the fungal, as well as the bacterial infection?

Karyn


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

ahhh yes karyn it is the mega bacteria.....sorry about that, iv been up for 24 hours lol had to work the 3rd shift last night.but yes thank you for correcting me.it is mega bacteria .she swabbed jujus mouth and took some fecal,she said she would put them under the microscope to look at the negative and positive bacteria,she said there was alot of negative and thats not good.she said he needs meds and told us the price and left to get them,after that we didnt see her again so it was kinda short.sorry my explanation is bad can you tell me about this? do you think bunny will be ok until fri?

also on the car ride to the vet juju was shaking his head and threw up a tiny bit....he has never done that before.The doctor said chances are it was the car ride,do pigeons get car sick?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kailey, if it is avian gastric yeast (old name; megabactria), this would be the first instance of it I have heard about on this forum and the first I have heard about it myself in a pigeon. This is infection is mostly associated with budgies, some finches and other Psittacines (members of the hookbill family), not really something associated with Columbiformes (pigeons/doves). Of course, because this infection is an avian disease, a pigeon could absolutely get it, just a puzzler for me that an indoor bird that only has contact with its mate, Bunny, would come down with this infection. I would follow the treatment outlined and use the drugs you have been prescribed, and I know you were not expecting this unforeseen expense, but this would be something I would be thinking about getting a second opinion on. Is the vet an avian specialist, and how experienced?

Karyn


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

Oh wow thats scary to hear.this vet said she had a rescued pigeon when she was in her 30s and talked about how great they are,she seemed very experienced....but now that you say this im worried.I dont know much about infections so i just to her advice because i felt comfortable with her.When i called around to find a vet i asked if this doctor had treated pigeons before and the woman said yes she has ,she said they have had pigeons come in before.This was a exotic and small animal hospital,it came highly recommended by a few people.This was one of the few places that said they have treated pigeons before but who knows if thats true i guess.ill call tomorrow and get the exact details and names and write them down and re post them.also this vet said that there clientele is about 60% birds so they treat alot of them but i will still get a second opinion.its so hard to believe that jujubean has caught something this rare.

So ill call around some more and try to get a second opinion when i get paid it is a unseen expense but the pij's deserve the best!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I also wouldn't particularly panic about Bunny. Just be vigilant and see if any symptoms start. Definitely treat Bunny as a precaution, but I do not think a 7-day lag will hurt anything.

Also...as mentioned, Parrots do get this fairly often, and they are indoor birds...so it's certainly conceivable a companion Pigeon could have contracted it somehow. Although, as Dobato notes, it's not something common in Columbids...


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

oh good ,thank you jaye.i will for sure make bunny an appt for next week.
how does a bird catch this? im very puzzled about this whole thing now knowing this information you guys told me.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kailey, it may be a good idea to put the brakes on a bit and speak to your vet. The reason I say this is that since you could not remember the name of the "mega fungus" infection, and I suggested a name, that may have sounded like what the vet said, but because I suggested it, we may not be 100% sure. So by speaking to the vet will be able to confirm with certainty just what the infection is, so don't get yourself worked up over the weekend.

I did spend a bit of time having a look around on the net, and while by no means exhaustive, I could not find one link where it was said specifically by someone, that their pigeon had a AGY infection, or any literature that spoke of, or detailed this infection in pigeons. If fact in the quote below, pigeons where not even one of the birds, when this was written, that AGY had been identified in (just a mention that this, like a good deal of net information, must be considered anecdotal, since it does not come from an accredited website and this should be always taken in consideration).



> _Transmission: The earliest record of Megabacteria in the United States was in 1982, but it has been a chronic problem outside the US in England, Australia, Germany and Japan. Megabacteria have been identified in the following types of birds so far: canaries, European goldfinches, lovebirds, cockatiels, English budgies, parakeets, rosellas, various cockatoos, finches, ostriches and chickens. According to the literature, 27 to 64 percent of all budgies carry Megabacteria, but exhibit no symptoms. It is possible that this organism is part of the common gut bacteria of certain birds, but then becomes problematic when other diseases break out at the same time. Transmission is not fully understood. Courtship feeding rituals may be a key factor in transmitting the disease. Since fecal spread is a concern, good housekeeping and daily removal of droppings is essential. Also, daily water changes of communal drinkers are recommended._


If when you speak to your vet, they do confirm that this was their finding, then it may be prudent to get the opinion of another vet, as this finding, while I guess not outside the realm of possibilities, would indeed seem very unusual. Here is a list of avian vets in Michigan:

http://www.avianweb.com/recommendedvets.htm#MICHIGAN BREEDERS

After you do speak to the vet, please do let us know where we are at.

Karyn


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

ok so i called the vet to get the exact names of the infections. And we were right it is gram negative bacteria and mega bacteria. she said they have had alot of the mega Bactria showing up lately.so this is scary for me considering you guys say this so rare,im worried becuse im still confused about this whole thing.i hope juju will be ok,he got his meds this morning.

oh and this exact doctor i saw is on the list of avian vets you just linked to me(parkways hospital) but ill go to another for sure to get a second opinion. thanks you guys so much for letting me know to get a second opinion.i will try my best to get the funds together to go to another vet.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kailey lane said:


> ok so i called the vet to get the exact names of the infections. And we were right it is gram negative bacteria and mega bacteria. she said they have had alot of the mega Bactria showing up lately.so this is scary for me considering you guys say this so rare,im worried becuse im still confused about this whole thing.i hope juju will be ok,he got his meds this morning.
> 
> oh and this exact doctor i saw is on the list of avian vets you just linked to me(parkways hospital) but ill go to another for sure to get a second opinion. thanks you guys so much for letting me know to get a second opinion.i will try my best to get the funds together to go to another vet.


Kailey, if the avian gastric yeast is confirmed by a second vet, then as I mentioned, this would be the first case I am aware of on this forum, and the first I have heard confirmed of in a pigeon, that I am aware of right now.

I would do two things, I would speak to most of the vets on the list and I would first tell them you have an ill bird, and then ask them if they have been seeing " a lot of Megabacteria showing up lately", as if one vet in your general area is reporting numerous cases, then other avian vets in the same area should be able to report a similar spike in instances. 

The second is ask each, starting with ones closer by, do they have experience in diagnosing this disease, as you can then tell them you have a pigeon that this infection has been diagnosed in and you would like a second opinion on this finding. At this point you should have the first vet fax/email their lab results/findings to the second vet, along with any photographic images they may have taken, if their microscope is capable of capturing images through it and they have images of the infection in Jujubean's file.

I forgot to mention, pigeons can get car sick fairly easily, at least I have a had a few that do, the best way to deal with this is to have their carry box/cage in a position where can see out, as being able to see what's going on around them and the movement of the car, seems to help a great deal with preventing this.

Also, not to confuse you too much, but here is a more comprehensive list of avian vets in MI, from the Association of Avian Veterinarians website:

MI 48009 Ann Basile Callahan, DVM Birmingham A*
MI 48009 Christine Glikis-Scott, DVM Brimingham A*
MI 48038 Thomas M. Bankstahl, DVM Clinton Township A
MI 48047 Amy Maskey, DVM New Baltimore A*
MI 48067 John M. Simon, DVM Royal Oak A*
MI 48076 Frederick B. Shulak, DVM Southfield A
MI 48088 Julie A. Cappel, DVM Warren A*
MI 48088 Jennifer Khalifah, DVM Warren A*
MI 48101 Marj Field, DVM Allen Park A
MI 48152 Sharon C.Sheehy, DVM Livonia A
MI 48170 Kevin C. Roose, DVM Plymouth A
MI 48187 Andrew Grzanowski, DVM Canton A
MI 48187 Kenneth M. Harr, DVM Canton A
MI 48187 Kristin Moran, DVM Canton A
MI 48187 Cassandra Pohl, DVM Canton A
MI 48195 Keith G. Cook, DVM Southgate A
MI 48195 Eileen Cook, DVM Southgate A
MI 48195 Lisa Walters, DVM Southgate A
MI 48236 Jerrod T. Notebaert, DVM Grosse Point Woods A
MI 48313 Cynthia L. Kispert, DVM Utica A
MI 48317 Nadine A. Richter, DVM Utica A
MI 48377 Christina Rearick, DVM Novi A
MI 48383 Lauren Scally, DVM White Lake A
MI 48390 Andrea Maceri, DVM Commerce Twp A
MI 48415 Kimberlee A. Buck, DVM Birch Run A*
MI 48854 Chris Howe, DVM Mason A
MI 48895 Samuel Dewayne Beasley, DVM Williamston A
MI 48895 Derek Nolan, DVM Williamston A
MI 48906 Edie M. Kimball, DVM Lansing A*
MI 49015 Kent D. Beebe,DVM Battle Creek A
MI 49415 Jeanne T. Corbett, DVM Fruitport A
MI 49424 James G. Bader, DVM Holland A
MI 49512 Edward Farnham, DVM Kentwood A


Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Iam wondering.. if juju has this yeast in his gut...why would he be wheezing in flight?... pigeons do make a noise when they fly..like a squeaking sound.. sort of.. a bit like a wild dove does.. and If he really does have this yeast infection.. I read that AVC in the water is good to give... that is If he has this.. here is a bit on the ACV. from Dr collin walker..

"Another group of therapeutic agents which may help in managing Megabacteria, which initially
might seem a little bit strange, are the acids. Stress disrupts the normal bowel bacteria, in the
process interfering with their lactic acid production. This lactic acid keeps the pH of the healthy
bird’s bowel on the weakly acidic side, in the process helping to protect it from disease. With
stress, this innate protective mechanism can be lost. It is thought that by lowering (ie acidifying)
gastric pH, an intestinal and stomach environment is created that not only makes it difficult for
Megabacteria to establish in uninfected birds but also makes it difficult for Megabacteria to
multiply in birds that are already infected. Usually, either citric acid (a white crystalline powder)
at a dose of 1 teaspoon (3 g) to 4.5 – 6 litres or apple cider vinegar (acetic acid) 5 – 10 ml to 1
litre, are used. Being natural nutrients, at the above doses, there is no risk of a toxic reaction and
so they can be used fairly freely. Their use also helps ensure that droppings passed build up an
acidic dressing in the aviary, helping to inhibit Megabacterial survival in the environment."

probiotics are helpful as well.. after any antibiotic use


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

ok so i took jujubean in for a second opinion and they confirmed it is megabacteria(avian gastric yeast) i took bunny into a different avian vet and they said bunny has the mega Bactria also. bunny is now being treated with the same meds as jujubean.thank you all for your input anymore input is great!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kailey lane said:


> ok so i took jujubean in for a second opinion and they confirmed it is megabacteria(avian gastric yeast) i took bunny into a different avian vet and they said bunny has the mega Bactria also. bunny is now being treated with the same meds as jujubean.thank you all for your input anymore input is great!


Kailey, I have been wondering, as of late, what was going on with your two little guys, thanks for the update. Well, I guess we all should take note of this, as this will be the first case, that I am aware of, of Avian Gastric Yeast (Mega Bacteria) in pigeons. Please keep us updated on how they are doing and I wish them both a full and fast recovery.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hmm... the new name for that, by the way, is "Macrorhabdus ornithogaster". We've discussed it here on the forum before a tad:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/medication-amounts-14465-6.html?highlight=Macrorhabdus#post131416

Wheezing wouldn't be a symptom that I'd expect out of a bird suffering actual effects from that particular thing, though. I'd be more likely to suspect air sac mites or even mycoplasmatales. Mycoplasmatales don't cause primary illness, but they complicate a bunch of other ones. That's why they often mix Tylosin with Doxycycline for respiratory infections--to get the Mycoplasms that are helping to make it worse.

Pidgey


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

thank you dobato for thinking of my two babies considering i have had 3 doctors tell me that is what is going on i cannot really argue with it,they said they have seen this going around lately in many types of birds...idk im just glad i got meds and hopfully these doctors ares not wrong,they are both being treated with baytril and terbinafine.

@pidgey ,do you think they diagnosed this wrong? if so what kind of testing should i get done?thank you for your input

btw the doctor didn't here any weezing in bunny and no negative gram bacteria with her.but she did have the mega bacteria.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

First, all of us will have a blend of both Gram negative and positive bacteria in us at all times. Poop's full of it (I've been told that I'm "full of it" several times, too, by the way). Having too much Gram negative bacteria is generally thought of as bad, but you can screw up the testing by a tad and show more of one than the other anyhow. 

If you want to see some good stuff about "Megabacteria" or AGY (Avian Gastric Yeast) or "Macrorhabdus ornithogaster" (the newest name), go read Vonda's fecal smear page here (scroll down quite a ways):

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

Frankly, it's pretty easy to find something with labwork to alarm you, but is it THE answer? That's the fun part about diagnosing--finding what IS causing a given individual's biggest problem of the moment. Imagine yourself as a vet with somebody bringing in a bird that's obviously in pretty good shape... they describe one or maybe some vague symptoms... whaddya' do? Tell 'em they're flippin' looney and should stop worrying so much? Or do you go ahead and give it The Old College Try and charge the woowee out of 'em?

To be fair, I have had some vets tell me before that I oughta' chill out a bit. And one of 'em works with a lot of rehabbers, too. Me, I'd probably say that Macrorhabdus ornithogaster doesn't cause primary illness in a pigeon but you're not really describing a bird with a "primary illness", either.

Pidgey


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