# T.X. Barber Article, Part III - End



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

*IMPLICATIONS*

_The implications are tremendous. If, as the evidence indicates, animals are aware, and birds have human-like intelligence, emotions, and personalities, then... modern humans have been fundamentally wrong about the nature of basic reality. Since they have been mistaken about their closest and most common wild neighbors, the birds, they need to reassess and reevaluate their presumed understanding of reality and their relationship to everything around them, beginning with birds and extending out to all animals and all of nature. _

As the willfulness and awareness of birds and other animals penetrate to the consciousness of forthcoming generations, modern human cultural institutions, including science, philosophy, and religion, will change drastically. No longer will official science attribute intelligence only to humans; on the contrary, the next generation of scientists will be increasingly cognizant of the mindfulness and purposefulness of other living beings. No longer will philosophers philosophize with total disregard to the planet's non-human animals, no longer will religions focus only on God and people while ignoring all other creatures. As people realize the true extent of awareness in animals, a new respect and reverence will enter into their relationships with the rest of the natural world. 

*Implications for Research *
_Although it may require one or more generations for humankind to understand the deep implications of animal awareness, the emerging understanding should impact more quickly on research with animals. The dominant behavioristic-reductionistic-positivistic paradigm in animal research distorts our understanding of animals. The implicit assumptions that underlie the paradigm make it extremely difficult for investigators to report without equivocation that their animal subjects behaved in ways modern humans believe are characteristic only of humans._ While urging and stimulating researchers to look with an open mind at the possibility of conscious thought in animals, Griffin also emphasized under the dominant paradigm in animal research, students learn it is unscientific to ask what an animal feels or thinks. Researchers fear ridicule and excommunication from the scientific community if they interpret data as indicating conscious thought in animals, naturalists hesitate to write publicly about the mentality of the animals they study, and editors of scientific journals are quick to reject papers that do not adhere to the accepted paradigm.

_The power of the dominant paradigm, for instance, its potency in blocking mention of the human-avian similarities, is overwhelming. As Thomas Kuhn and others (Kuhn, 1962) have taught us, the dominant paradigm defines what is normal and acceptable, what is out of bounds and is to be ignored, how the data are to be analyzed and interpreted, and even what questions can be asked and what kinds of answers are acceptable. Paradigms are based on explicit and implicit assumptions._ For instance, the dominant paradigm implicitly assumes that animals are not like humans. The new paradigm will discard this null hypothesis and look freely at all possibilities, including the possibility that animals are much like humans. Of course, the new paradigm will also discard the anti-anthropomorphic commandment which unscientifically, dogmatically restricts what scientists are permitted to perceive, think, and publish. 


*RESEARCH METHODS:* 
THE NEW RESEARCH PARADIGM 

/snip

Under the new paradigm, researchers will be free to look at previously unconsidered psychological dimensions of individual animals. For instance, they will look at the effects of the animals' early life experiences and developmental histories on their preferred learning styles, their individual personalities, their musical, artistic, and communicative abilities, and so forth.

More important, the intelligent awareness and unique personalities of individual birds can be directly perceived by researchers and by every other interested person who follows the procedures that have been used previously by individuals who succeeded in befriending birds. These procedures, which I describe more fully in the book, include feeding wild birds while approaching them in ways to minimize their fear of humans, and forming bonds with baby birds who have been gently hand fed. _However, to perceive the human-like nature of birds (and other animals) one has to really know the animal. Franz de Waal, who has vividly demonstrated the human-like characteristics of chimpanzees in his book Chimpanzee Politics, points out, "Everyone can look, but actually perceiving is something that has to be learnt._. . . It is necessary to be completely familiar with the many individuals, their respective friendships and rivalries, all their gestures, characteristic sounds, facial expressions and other kinds of behavior. Only then do the wild scenes we see actually begin to make sense," (De Waal, F., 1982). The same kind of . . . subtle knowledge of an individual bird's friendships, rivalries, body gestures, characteristic sounds, and facial expressions are necessary . . . before researchers truly see "the human nature" hidden in birds and the basic awareness and intelligence that can be perceived in animals.

_Until researchers begin to personally see the human-like qualities of animals, animal rights advocates (including Psychologists for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) will be fighting a no-win, endless war. How researchers treat animals depends in the final analysis on how they perceive them. If they see animals as resembling unconscious, instinctual robots, they will not be concerned if their subjects experience confinement, social isolation, and stimulus deprivation or are fearful, depressed, unnatural, or blocked from expressing their potentials. However, when researchers personally perceive their animals actually have the essential characteristics of modern humans (wrongly) attributed only to humans (feelings, emotions, awareness, mentality), they will ipso facto treat their animals humanely and ethically. They will be concerned and assure the animals maintain good health, use their muscles and body appropriately, not be afraid or depressed, and be as natural as possible in their surroundings and in their interactions with others._


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

OMG...Jonathan, that is such a powerful article. Thank you for posting it. I hope everyone will read it several times. 
I'm emailing the page to everyone I know!


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Jonathan,

Charis said it. That is a fantastic article. I'm likewise going to share it with many others. Thank you so very much for posting it. I think the book is in my future. 

Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryannon, 


I have just been feeling at a loss for words...

But, an old Edward R. Murrow quote somes to mind - 

“The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer.”


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi ryannon,
> 
> 
> I have just been feeling at a loss for words...
> ...


Phil, I felt the same way and I've read the article several times.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Excellent article! Having a different perspective changes everything. In the member photo thread, look at the pic of Terry Whatley with Mr Nibbles. Hard to miss the awareness in his eyes.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

This is of course a very 'big' subject, having many dimensions and imports...too many, I suppose


...found myself returning to some memories of a movie I saw quite a while ago - 



'The Emerald Forest'...

'The Termites'

'The Invisable People'

Senior 'Beeel'...

His 'son'...

The 'singing Frogs'...

The 'Dam'...


Jung would have found the film interesting I think...



Phil
l v


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

This is a wonderful article. It is too bad that man has to measure every living creature by his own standard, and in the past has not given each animal the respect of his own right. 

Different species of animals communicate with each other. I remember sitting on a swing in the back yard with my mom when a crow landed on a post in the middle of the yard. He started doing his caw thing. My mom said "he is warning the rabbits that a cat is near." I felt my eyes roll up in my head, but at the same time noticed all of the rabbits running for their cages and holes in the yard. All three little dogs stood at attention, with ears straight up. In less than a minute a cat was on the wall. 

Every animal in the yard including my mom understood the crow's message. Everyone but me.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Feather said:


> This is a wonderful article. It is too bad that man has to measure every living creature by his own standard, and in the past has not given each animal the respect of his own right.
> 
> Different species of animals communicate with each other. I remember sitting on a swing in the back yard with my mom when a crow landed on a post in the middle of the yard. He started doing his caw thing. My mom said "he is warning the rabbits that a cat is near." I felt my eyes roll up in my head, but at the same time noticed all of the rabbits running for their cages and holes in the yard. All three little dogs stood at attention, with ears straight up. In less than a minute a cat was on the wall.
> 
> Every animal in the yard including my mom understood the crow's message. Everyone but me.



What a great story!

Your mother must have been wise indeed in the ways of nature...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Feather, ryannon,



Yes, Mocking Birds will do this also, make specific 'announcements' to interested others about 'who' is entering the territory or domain.


We used to have a Mocking Bird ( early 1980s ) , found as an injured Baby, anyway, he was not releaseable oweing to some handicaps, but, free-flying well-enough for indoors, he enjoyed watching things out the window, and, would make a certain call, and the four Dogs we had then would explode out the Doggie-Door and into the Yard, knowing Mr. Mocker was never NOT right on the money...


And, there were somewhat different 'calls' he would make if it was a Cat, a Kid, Kids-plural, another Dog, or probably for other things also...and you could tell he liked his role as 'Watchman' who could 'sic' the Dogs on a tresspasser..! 

The Dogs were Australian Shepards and a Whippet and a low heavy Dutch Milk Cart pulling breed one, and all of them ( well, the Whippet was in on it just for fun, but ) they would 'herd up' whoever or whatever it was, till we got out there to got things attended to...so that was nice, they never harmed anyone or any Cat or other, just got 'em cornered and kept them there.

If they were bored, they would 'herd' up Rocks, Pine Cones or other things...and even help them to get to the same place by carying them gently, and, in effect, sort of 'guarding them'...then wanting us to notice what a great job they did of it..! Very sweet...



Phil
l v


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Ya just gotta luv em!

I have such a vivid picture of this pine cone round up. Bless those sweet babies. I have been cold all day, but darn it Phil you sure warmed up my heart.

Yes...as things turned out, the crow came almost everyday. I just didn't understand what he was so upset about until my mother clued me in. 

Even now when there is a hawk in the area, the crows are the first to let us know. If my birds are out when the sky police sound their sirens...they sure 
bust a move.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Feather, 



Crows are also known to communicate with feral Dogs or Wolves, and other Wild Canid species, with the Crow(s) being 'scouts' for prey, alerting the Canids about possible prey-candidates however far away, where having flown over and seen such, the Crow will alert his Canid pals as to the where and how far and what sort of prey and whatever other details, and, where the subsequent hunt is successful, the Crow also shares in the results or spoils.


Probably, Crows did this also with people in quite long-ago times of Hunter-Gatherers, or, with the more savvy of them anyway.


Phil
l v


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Phil,

You know I think I did read somewhere that crows will lead a predator to another birds nest to get it away from theirs. 

Ah Ha...maybe they weren't warning the animals in my yard after all. Maybe they were just leading that ol cat to a four star restaurant. lol


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Feather, ryannon,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Phil, What a sweet story.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have an amazing crow story. I may have told it on this forum before but here it goes again...
Some years back and while I was still married, my husband was driving down a treed street in his convertible and a baby crow fell from a nest in a huge Oak tree and landed in his lap. I don't know how many feet the baby fell but the tree is at least 100 years old. He was quite surprised to say the least and pulled the car to side of the street to examine the baby. What was obvious was that the fall had injured the baby crow and one of it's legs was badly broken.
By this time the parents
had discovered their baby was in the possession of a human and began buzzing him and pecking his head... the human that is. They chased the car all the way home, which was the distance of about 1 mile. As he walked from the car to the house they buzzed, pecked and screamed at him.
We made the decision to take the baby to the Avian Medical Center for evaluation and Dan decided to take his truck rather than the convertible for obvious reasons. The parent crows were waiting in the yard and chased him all the way to the truck, following as he drove off. Unfortunately, the baby crow could not be saved.
For a week after the incident they lay in waiting for Dan. Every time they saw him they buzzed, pecked and screamed. After a week they gave up and left. During that week, they never went after my son or me...only Dan.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

That is indeed an amazing story. Would any of us behave differently?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I can relate! Grackles do the same! 

I always thought that Mockingbirds headed the list of "attackers" if humans came too near their nests. Friends at ASU would tell of being dive bombed by Mockers during the breeding season!

When I had Bo, a baby Grackle, on my balcony, the mother would come by to feed. If I had to go out on the balcony for any reason, she would ATTACK me!

What was even MORE interesting, is that she "knew" me and when I would go out on an errand, she would dive bomb me practically all the way around the corner to my car!

When I came home and was on the sidewalk in front of my apartment (I live on the second floor), she would dive bomb me again. Of course, my red hair might have been a giveaway!  

Even going down the sidewalk to the mailbox, she would still see me and fly to the ATTACK!

Unfortunately, Bo didn't make it. Momma finally left me alone after her baby was gone...

I sure learned to have a healthy respect for these birds!

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Signal or 'call' or announcement wise, my little Coackateil 'Butter Cup'...whenever I am getting back from an errand or having otherwise left, when I am walking up toward the front door, I hear her make a short high call or signal. This is a different call or vocaliation than she does otherwise, so it only seems to apply to this situation.

I am not sure if she is saying 'Hello!' to me, or, announcing to the other Birds in here, that I am returning...or, in effect, letting me know 'where' she is.

She can not see outside, no one can anymore, and either she hears the subtle sound of my getting my Keys out of my pocket, or, I do not know, but I know she makes a 'call' when I am getting close to the door...no matter the time of day or night.


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Something I was thinking about a few days ago, mostly from brooding on the content of the Article...is that what we tend to hear, when listening to other Species ( if in our case, usually, our Birds ) is lacking in dimentionality, as for the real content of their vocaliations.

I was thinking, that we are hearing 'FM' as if it were 'AM'...so while we get the 'signal' at one level, we are mnissing it's content on further levels, where the content is.


'AM' we my recall, is 'Amplitude Modulation', or, different size, duration or frequency of 'waves'...

...where...


'FM' is 'Frequency Modulation', within a peramiter of amplitudes, where the content of the Signal is in the small waves within the larger waves, so to speak.


This is only a rough analogy of course, but...I had been thinking about it, and then late at night, there was a Radio Program which had a guest, who was a woman who was billed as an 'Animal Communicator', and, she said exactly that same thing.


Overall, I will say she made a very good impression on me, and impressed me as overall very sincere and credible, even if her Web Site looks pretty hoaky.


Anyway, as for me, sometimes I can 'listen' differently, and, maybe only for a few moments, or sometimes longer, there can be a completely different manner of hearing, and, of experiencing the content of their ( in this case, Pigeons ) vocaliations, where, within the 'Moos' and 'Arooo-Kuh-Rooo!'s, I can in effect 'hear' a really large amount of informational content, possibly more implicit than that it is per-se consciously intended...somewhat like how sometimes I can 'hear' mundane human speech of incidental persons, and yet 'hear' a great deal more in it than usual, as for the condition, status, self-identity, and other qualitys or dimensions or details of the speaker...none of which are being ostensibly said, yet, are 'in' the speech.



Probably, other species 'hear' differently than we do, and, if along these lines, then I would expect them to hear more toward the actual implicit content, rather than per-se, the content we intentionally are communicating, or, both of course.

Not that they are obliged to care about either...but...



Phil
l v


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Well they have a language, and they try hard to communicate it to us. When we just can't get through our heads what they are trying to tell us, then they resort to actions.

I think that goes for all animals. The noise your tiel makes Phil, I use to interpret it as being excited because I was home.

I am pondering the content of this article as well. It just gives me this awesome feeling, and I thank God for the wonderful gifts he has given us. Can you imagine this world without our animals?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, our cockatiel Dean does the same thing. I know he hears the car when we pull in the garage. He starts "hollering" at the top of his lungs.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Jonathan,

I am SO glad you posted this article and so very glad I waited until I had “quiet time” to read it (and re-read it). Not only did the message leave an impact, but it is so well written that the reader can truly feel the compassion of the author. Very rare.

Lots of times my husband and I will be sitting on our deck and the bluejays will fly in making all sorts of noise! I never used to pay much attention to it until I noticed how often there were hawks in the air at the same time. Now I’ve come to realize the when the bluejays get all noisy they’re either warning other species in the area about the hawk – or (with a very different noise) letting all the other birds in the area know that I’ve just thrown out fresh seed or peanuts.

It’s so fun now sitting outside and observing the way all my backyard creatures communicate and live together.




Feather said:


> It is too bad that man has to measure every living creature by his own standard…


How very true – and sad… not to get OT here, but don’t you ever wonder why we (humans) always assume that a planet must have water and oxygen to sustain life?? Those are necessary for life as we know it – but… well, like I said I don’t want to get OT here, but who knows.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...we are 'Animals'...


Technically, we are a kind of 'Ape', or a branch of the figurative 'Tree' whose other continuous and immediate branches, are Apes. The larger family being called 'Hominoidea'...


We all know this of course, but, the habit, gained from ambient colloquial use, of refering to 'Animals' as if we were something else, is good to review now and then.


Phil
l v


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

O.K., Thank God for Apes as well. Your right I do often refer to animals as them and us. I am going to have to watch myself. I guess I really enjoy co-habitating with all of them. Funny...it is the human kind that I understand the least.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Getting a little philosopical here, my hope is that mankind begins to focus less on bigger & better TVs and more on our potential for using our minds to "communicate"...with each other, animals and birds. 

There are those fortunate ones who already HAVE this ability in large measure...we tend to call them "whisperers." 

I think most all of us have this latent ability, but our society does not foster this type of "thinking." More is the pity. For those who have this talent naturally and/or worked hard at refining and developing, most of us are absolutely AWED by what they can do.

After retiring, I promised myself that I would become more "aware" of my interactions with others AND my animals.

Hey, guess what...am seeing/finding VERY interesting things...more adventure awaits and my arms are WIDE OPEN!!

Shi
& Squeaks (who is teaching me A LOT even though I know he, at times, thinks I'm a slow learner!  )


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nice abstract image of 'Ant' Inteligence and accomplishment - 


http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2404.html?theme=light


Love, 


Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Something I was thinking about a few days ago, mostly from brooding on the content of the Article...is that what we tend to hear, when listening to other Species ( if in our case, usually, our Birds ) is lacking in dimentionality, as for the real content of their vocaliations.
> 
> 
> /....
> ...



Re-reading this just triggered a distant memory that relates: some years ago, up here on the sixth floor of my place - pretty much up in the sky - very late on a summer's night/wee hours of the a.m. big thunder storm slowing roiling up over the horizon; as usual, a rehabbing pigeon next to the window.

I'm half awake, half asleep - just drifting pleasantly and listening to the storm approaching from my bed in the darkened room; the silhouette of the bird visible against the night sky.

Suddenly a big peal of thunder - not a near hit, but a huge CRACK! and then the echoes as it reverberated across the city.

I saw the pigeon's head rise to it, and in our shared surprise of that instant I somehow found myself _at one with him_ - perhaps had been drifting that way prior to this moment, but I'm positive that _I heard what he heard_: it was at once familiar and totally unlike any thunder I had ever heard before. I can't describe it, but I do remember the _feelings_ it evoked, which were more like a form of information: that of total mystery, of something absolutely huge, ancient and unknowable. An entirely different part of my brain was perceiving it.

Something that had probably been hard-wired into our neurons at the time our own distant ancestors were still living in trees, and which we've long forgotten... 

I'm a pretty pragmatic guy, and my life has always had enough going on in it so that I've never had the need to invent special experiences or extraordinary states of mind: for me this was the real deal - and a rare privilege of experiencing the world for a few seconds in a much deeper and richer way than I was accustomed to.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

RYN,

I dance back and forth between reality and fantasy. But it is always back and forth never mixed together. But there is another place that I have been. It is the place that makes your hair stand up on your arms. It is such a wonderful place to be, and usually happens so fast that when you try to go over it again in your head that it doesn't make material sense.

I guess I call it the unexplainable reality. You call it the real deal. I have learned that although I can not talk about this place to too many people, I have been able to share this place with the locos on this forum. Most of us have been there under different circumstances of coarse. But we will relate to your experience.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Feather said:


> RYN,
> 
> I dance back and forth between reality and fantasy. But it is always back and forth never mixed together. But there is another place that I have been. It is the place that makes your hair stand up on your arms. It is such a wonderful place to be, and usually happens so fast that when you try to go over it again in your head that it doesn't make material sense.
> 
> I guess I call it the unexplainable reality, you call it the real deal. I have learned that although I can not talk about this place to too many people, I have been able to share this place with the locos on this forum. Most of us have been there under different circumstances of coarse. But we will relate to your experience.




We've paid a very high price for our so-called 'modernity': the loss of a way of experiencing the world as a totally living, multi-dimensional and interconnected place.

I've lived in some far-off places where people still maintained this ancestral wisdom as an integral part of their culture, and believe me, it was like _coming home_.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Wow...How wonderful that "home" is still here. This forum is as close as I have come to really being home.


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## nicole (Mar 27, 2006)

Powerful article and I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses. 
Back when I lived in Germany, some 15 years ago, I was riding my bicycle on a path through the forest, when I came across a farmer's field and a cow standing near the electric fence. I stopped and for several moments we stood there and stared into each other's eyes. I really felt we had a connection. I spoke a little to him, got on my bike, said, "goodbye Mr Cow" and rode home. I walked in the door and smelled the ground beef my mom was cooking. I became immediately nauseated. From that moment on, I stopped eating animals. I have no doubt that all beings are sentient and have emotions, including feeling love, pain, fear and joy.
Each one of my pigeons has a personality. I have one that is shy and just starting to come out of her shell. I have another that is so protective and loving to his mate, while she likes to socialize with the others. Another one wants to be accepted, yet is in that awkward teenage stage.
I am daily disappointed in the way my fellow humans treat the Earth's other creatures. I suspect much of it is ignorance, laziness, selfishness and not wanting to be inconvenienced.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Nicole, Thank you for your input! This thread is very interesting, and it is those brief moments as yours with the crow that brings us closer to the place that Ryannon calls our original home.

I have never had these experiences with another human being (just with animals). And of coarse other humans have told me of their experiences with animals. So as Ryannon says, somewhere along the way we have lost what we are born knowing. We are brainwashed to discard our connection with Mother Nature for the sake of progress and $$$$. If we weren't...then how did we allow the destruction of her earth?

We have lost so many animals due to their loss of habitat. What was so important that we put in their place?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Feather said:


> We have lost so many animals due to their loss of habitat. What was so important that we put in their place?



Registered, Licenced, payed for yearly or else 'prison' or heavy fines, of 'monsanto' brand "GMO" kinds of 'species'...


Don't forget, 'bush' et all had publicly stated that they want to eradicate all 'wild' Species of 'animals' because they are "threats" to Factory Produced ones, and that "GMO" animals ( and Plants ) owned by 'monsanto' and others are the only solution for us to 'rent' or lease or otherwise pay for the rights to have, use or process...so we can be 'safe'.


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I got the book from which this article was extrapolated. It is excellent reading and is definitely broadning my perception. Why it wasn't on the best seller list is a mystery. But if I were to guess, the scientific community ignored it if not out and out suppressed it when it was published in '93. Ryanon, thank you for bringing our attention to this author.

If any of you want to read it, I got it used on Amazon. It was a whole $ 1.99
It cost more to mail it than the price of the book. A bargain for sure!!!

Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margarret, 



Thanks for mentioning that...I had not realized it was extracted from a Book.


So, I also went onto 'Amazon' and just ordered a used copy for myself...looks like there are still a dozen or so available from various sellers...


Barber appears to have written quite a few interesting sounding Books all tolled...and I will look into electing some further Works of his also sometime soon.


Best wishes!


Phil
l vdf


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Margarett and Phil,

What is the name of the book.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Feather, 


It is - 


"Human Nature of Birds: A Scientific Discovery with Startling Implications"
Theodore Xenophon Barber


Still 12 or so used Copys on 'Amazon'...


Phil
l v


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thanks Phil...I will check out Amazon


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A different Book which would be complimentary, if primarily about people's 'intelligence' and modes of knowing - 


'Evolution's End', by Joseph C. Pearce


http://www.amazon.com/Evolutions-End-Claiming-Potential-Intelligence/dp/006250732X


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh! Something that was so sweet...

'Big Girl', when we were at the Radio Station, in the Sound Room for the Pigeon episode...


Anyway, Big Girl was deaf for a long time, and has been slowly getting her hearing back, and, during the dialogoes or back and forth talking of the show, and during intermissions, any time someone mentioned her name, she would turn however far, to look right at them with those happy Eyes.

I did not even notice this, but the two Radio people did, and they commented on it...and I realized I had been seeing it also in my peripheral vision, but I had not noticed or registered it cogently.



Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Phil, is there any chance of being able to hear whatever it was you and Big Girl were doing for the radio? 

I kinda presume it wasn't a _cooing_ and _wokka-wokka _duet  and that you were talking about pigeons; I'm sure that many here would love to be listen to the discussion. Does the station broadcast on the Net, or can you post a link to an audio file of the program?


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Margarret,
> 
> Thanks for mentioning that...I had not realized it was extracted from a Book.
> 
> ...




Phil,

I'm so glad you ordered the book. You are not going to be able to put it down once you start reading it. Even though I have observed and believed in much more intelligence in birds and animals that does the general public, Mr. Barber's work took me to another level of awareness.

Yes, Barber is quite well published in both in the scientific communities and the general public. I too am going to see if I can access some more of his work in the future.

Happy reading,

Margaret


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm looking forward to it as well. I ordered extra copies to give as gifts.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

ryannon said:


> Phil, is there any chance of being able to hear whatever it was you and Big Girl were doing for the radio?
> 
> I kinda presume it wasn't a _cooing_ and _wokka-wokka _duet  and that you were talking about pigeons; I'm sure that many here would love to be listen to the discussion. Does the station broadcast on the Net, or can you post a link to an audio file of the program?



Hi, not Phil, but in case he doesn't check this thread soon, this is a post he made in "Small Talk" about the showing.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=254845&postcount=11


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ryannon said:


> Phil, is there any chance of being able to hear whatever it was you and Big Girl were doing for the radio?
> 
> I kinda presume it wasn't a _cooing_ and _wokka-wokka _duet  and that you were talking about pigeons; I'm sure that many here would love to be listen to the discussion. Does the station broadcast on the Net, or can you post a link to an audio file of the program?



Hi ryannon, 



Lol...

No, 'Big Girl' was completely silent the whole time.


The 'Radio' Program is actually a 'Pod Cast' it turns out, and it will be available sometime soon from their Web-Site.


I will post a notice in the original Thread about it once I have the details.


'Big Girl' is overall very quiet, unless chastising someone for bothering her, and she is very tolerant of others, so someone really has to be 'bothering' her for her to do it. And then she has her own version of the Nodding 'Aroooo-Kuh-Uh-Rooo" thing with or without a few good Pecks or Wing Slaps.


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Was thinking to-day about 'intelligence' and how while we all use or hear the term, it is at best an allusion to things which elude quantifications or definition...or, the definitions we might find are very incomplete and abstract.


Some of my thought was that our occasions of noticing or evaluating the 'inteligence' we may attribute to other species, is of course limited to the quality and kind of observations we make, the necessarily abstract contexts in which we make them, and hence, is at-once, a measure of sorts, of the 'inteligence' we are mobilizing to note or espye it in others at all.


Bird-wise, I am really haunted by the many scenes in the film 'Winged Migration'...


And, associated with that, is a scene from another film which was not about Birds, but, which had Birds in it in a key scene - 


The film is 'The Day After Tomorrow"...


And, the scene, is where various pedestrians going about their usual things in downtown New York City, happen to look up to see enormous flocks of Birds flying inland...


Very soon of course, the people get to find out 'why'.


Along these lines also, we may recall the Tsunami which ravaged some areas of the Pacific rim a few years ago...


Elephants were seen walking TO the Beaches to grasp in their Trunks, and or put on their backs, the erstwhile playing children...and to carry them or urge them away from the Sea...before seeking higher ground themselves...

Dogs, similarly tugged many trouser cuffs or sleees, or whinnied and spun circles, barking and urging people to 'leave' before leaving themseves...


Cats, Chickens, Ducks, Donkeys and so on, were all scattering and high-tailing it to high ground, and no 'Animals' were found to have perished but for those who had been tethered or caged....while...


The people, sloshed their little 'Ubrella-Booze' drinks, and went blandly on tossing Beach-Balls, cavorting in the 'fun houses', or otherwise being about their recreational vacation things, and, of course, very soon drownded by the thousands.


How does one apply 'Intelligence' to scenarios where 'we' are the least informed, or, least aware?


I suppose one may conjecture, that 'intelligence' does not mean a quailty of what one has to work with, but, rather, it alludes to expressions which concern what one uses or employs, of what one has to work with.


And clearly, all we may know of anyone, is what they employ of it, or hints of in what way, at any given moment...which tells us nothing of what 'intelligence' they have but are not employing at-the-moment...or not employing in a manner we happen to notice.

Clearly, if conjecturally posessing the 'intelligence' to have known something was 'up', these people did not employ or heed or occupy or defer to the 'intelligence' in order to act.


It is well known also, that in the several days prior to Earthquake, the 'Lost and Found' Pet colums of anyone's daily News Paper...the "lost" Dogs and Cats numbers go way "up"...


These Dogs and Cats of course, know something, and elect to vacate the area which will be effected.

There are orders or strata of 'intelligence' which they occupy or utilize, which we do not occupy or utilize...though my guess, is that we could, and, used to, in long ago times, but have exhiled or abdicated those spheres or rhelms of awareness, knowing or sensibility.

And if all we knew of human beings, was what we could observe form 35,000 feet up, we would attribute to them, no more 'intelligence', than human beings attribute, to the 'Ant'.


Oye...


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, I enjoyed reading your comments. We recently got in a beautiful little feral that we named "Honey". For three weeks she has been unable to fly although there are no breaks anywhere. Her keel looks a little off-center, but I kinda think she may have been brushed by a car because she was found walking on the sidewalk beside a busy street.

She stays, for the most part, in our laundry room, which is directly off from the kitchen, with one of our aviary pigeons "Cosmo" for company. If I have to do the laundry, they stay on the kitchen table. 

Every night, we have put Honey on the floor in the kitchen to see if she can fly. Until last night, she couldn't. She runs as fast as her little legs will carry her to the laundry room and stands under her cage wanting to get back in it and would flap her wings but could get no lift. Last night, and tonight, she did the same, running in there but then she stopped, looked around, then jumped onto the tub of detergent I keep on the floor, then flew to the sink, then flew to the top of her cage and jumped in.

Honey used intelligence to figure out how to get to her cage where she feels secure. To me, it was a complex thought process on her part and showed a lot of intelligence. Not only were we pleased she could fly a little but proud that she was so smart.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

How delightful, Maggie!!

Please give Honey AND Cosmo Hugs and Scritches from...

Shi & Squeaks

P.S. Besides, I'm SURE that she has NO intention of giving up the "GOOD LIFE inside!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I love this thread.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I received my book today! "The human nature of birds"

Maggie
That sweet little Honey. Don't you just love em?

Phil 
I saw your post last night, I was just to tired to respond. But I was watching Oprah the other night, and she had the author of a book on fear on her show. He said that all of the animals on the planet have the instinct of fear, but humans are the only animals that won't act upon it.

He said that humans are the only ones that will get in an elevator with someone that they were afraid of. That somehow we talk ourselves out of the warning that our instinct tells us is not a safe situation.

I read your post and thought of the Oprah show that I had seen just days before.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

> And if all we knew of human beings, was what we could observe form 35,000 feet up, we would attribute to them, no more 'intelligence', than human beings attribute, to the 'Ant'.
> 
> 
> Oye...
> ...


Very apt observation Phil. We base "intelligence" on the ability to abstract much of the time, not giving credence to other kinds of intelligence. It is hard to measure abstraction if you have no agreed upon method of communication. So as a result, because we haven't developed a way to communicate ideas/thoughts to non humans we see them as unintelligent, a conclusion on our part that is finally being discounted. The parrot in the first part of the book shows that much more thinking is taking place than previously thought. I can't recall the name of the Gorilla that has learned sign language, but the ability to communicate between species has shown a very evolved intelligence in that animal species.

I think the other thing you are talking about in the instances of animals and birds responding to impending disaster is their acuteness of various senses. I have read that humans had much more developed senses at one time, hearing, vision, etc. but lost them when we no longer needed them. One researcher felt that humans at one time had extremely good night vision. As we learned to use fire and create light as desired, we gradually lost our night vision. I think that much of what people describe as ESP is really the ability to pay attention to what we are sensing. It takes some work but most people can develop it if they desire. We discount a great deal of the information we take in, and bombarded as we are with sound and visual information, it is getting harder to sort out what is real from the false.

Just had to throw in my two bits worth here. 

Margaret


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

> I think that much of what people describe as ESP is really the ability to pay attention to what we are sensing. It takes some work but most people can develop it if they desire. We discount a great deal of the information we take in, and bombarded as we are with sound and visual information, it is getting harder to sort out what is real from the false.
> 
> Just had to throw in my two bits worth here.
> 
> Margaret


Wow Margaret...that is an interesting observation. Pretty much what Dr. Fear was talking about. 

I can't wait to get started on this book.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

*Inside Animal Minds*

In the March 2008 issue, National Geographic has a great article. 

"They need to find mates, food, and a path through the woods, sea, or sky—tasks that Darwin argued require problem-solving and categorizing abilities." 

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Great article, Feather. 
There is so much we have yet to understand. It's interesting that other creatures are able to learn our language and we then think of them intelligent while we, for the most part, make no attempt to communicate in their language....then call ourselves intelligent. Crazy!
My dream is that our species will become less arrogant, accept other creatures as intelligent, valuable, deserving of respect and discontinue exploiting them on any level. Wouldn't that be something!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Feather said:


> In the March 2008 issue, National Geographic has a great article.
> 
> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text


Terrific article! Thanks so much for that link, Feather!

Terry


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Feather,

Thank you so much for the link. I really enjoyed it.

Margaret


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Charis, Terry and Margarret,

I am glad that you enjoyed the article. I sure did.


Here is a video link to the same article from National Geographic.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1390861263


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Feather said:


> Charis, Terry and Margarret,
> 
> I am glad that you enjoyed the article. I sure did.
> 
> ...


Yep! I watched the WHOLE thing .. long enough to get timed out here on Pigeon-Talk  Very much worth the time!

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I thoroughly enjoyed the commentary from the photographer. Four hours of being screamed at by one subject!!

One comment in the print NGM article with which I disagreed - 
"...Still we remain the inventive species. No other animal has built skyscrapers, written sonnets..."

Skyscrapers - termite mounds (proportionate to the animal)
Sonnets - starlings and whales


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TerriB said:


> I thoroughly enjoyed the commentary from the photographer. Four hours of being screamed at by one subject!!
> 
> One comment in the print NGM article with which I disagreed -
> "...Still we remain the inventive species. No other animal has built skyscrapers, written sonnets..."
> ...


Good point, Terri.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

TerryB,

You are so right. Honeycones, spider webs, rabbit warrens are all proportionate to the builders needs. Oh and how about beaver dams. I read at one time that they can't be duplicated. Can we make silk?


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