# colors and physical ability



## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

Dear Experts

I have a question about racing pigeons

Is there a relationship between the color of the bird and the physical ability in the races

if you have any scientific references i'll be grateful for you 

Best Regards


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Any color bird can be a great racing pigeon. It's just that there isn't as many of the odd colors going in the races so the odds of one of them winning is small. But I have colored birds who win for me. Like my Yellows and my Chocolates that win verses really good competition. Last year one of my Reds who was breed from a yellow won me one of the local money races. He was the only Red in the race and he won the race.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Any color bird can be a great racing pigeon. It's just that there isn't as many of the odd colors going in the races so the odds of one of them winning is small. But I have colored birds who win for me. Like my Yellows and my Chocolates that win verses really good competition. Last year one of my Reds who was breed from a yellow won me one of the local money races. He was the only Red in the race and he won the race.


It makes me happy to hear this, cuz just due to circumstances,The free birds I received- both breeders and YB have a lot of color. In fact, taken as a group, I have more colored birds than BB. I like it, they are pretty, and make the loft more interesting- and easier to know who is who- lol. People always say "Color doesn't win". But my mind went exactly to what you stated re odds ~ if only a few birds out of 1000 are anything but BB in a race, then it is pretty easy to say "Color doesn't win- look at those 4 birds"- but instead folks should be noticing all the BB that didn't make the top 10%  . Anyway, I think people fail to realize how much perception shapes their reality;how the prejudices slip in; assumptions get "proved". 

All I know is I like pretty birds- even BB are pretty to me, so I guess I like variety. I will breed my Ped birds together all proper like, and see if they race better than my pretty birds that I got for free. I imagine they will....But, some of those pretty birds came from good lines too- just ended up here with me somehow.... What Lucky Birds ~ LOL.


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## checkered (Dec 24, 2005)

This is just an observation and educated guess, but not based on scientific evidence studies or anything.

I observed that most top performers and winners are Blue Bars and Checkered. 

I've been around to many lofts in the past and the owner usually points to Blue Bars and Checkered as their best racers.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

egpigeon---At the next shipping make a note of all the birds and their color.
Then make you a chart of the "ODDs" of which color will win the Race.
I'd bet you will know the color of the winner---even before they are released


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

When I was younger I was into color so thats what I had and I tried to put together color birds with decent backgrounds or color birds who did good for me. And it worked out pretty good for me I still have my Yellows and Chocolates even though I'm not breeding just to get good colored birds they are there because they are good families that do really good for me. I think too many ppl judge how good colored birds are by trying out a colored bird that wasn't bred to actually compete but more as a show bird. And what do you expect the odds are your not gonna get a race champion. But if the colored bird is out of champs why wouldn't it be just as good if not better then the BB out of champs. Just like NayNay said look at all the BB's and BC's at the bottom of the sheet. It has nothing to do with color it's what the bird has inside that counts.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Color doesn't make a difference.


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

Thank you all for your great interactive with the topic

Let me explain more
As we Know (with Fancy pigeons)
Some color genes affect on the size of the bird
We see the yellow bird is size less than red
Dun bird is less in size than the color black, as a result of Dilute gene 

Also, We find that the color of almonds less in size than the basic colors such as blue, Red atc

so, do these genes applies to the quality of muscle fibers in the bird 

Regards


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

egpigeon said:


> Thank you all for your great interactive with the topic
> 
> Let me explain more
> As we Know (with Fancy pigeons)
> ...


I think you are wrong. Color really does not make a bird smaller. IN breeding and pair selection makes birds smaller. And working ONLY within a color line reduces the quality of selection. And many that work a color line stay within that color And forget Quality first color second. As color can be regained. And new color lines have to be set and quality returned. Far as race birds. Any color can win. If bred up to quality for the races. More blues are raced Some even think if it is not a blue bar or blue check it is not any good. But they have blinders on and see only 1 way.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The reason some of your other colored birds may be smaller, is perhaps because they have either been bred that way, or because the birds crossed in to bring the color were smaller. Size also doesn't make a difference as there is a big variation in the sizes and shapes of racers, and each is successful somewhere.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Plus- If for example, in a pair of breeders one parent is BB, and the other grizzle, some of the YB are gonna look like BB, some like Grizz- so a BB could win that has a colored parent and a color could win that has a BB parent. The breeders that were given to me came from 2 PT members that are pals and live done in Seattle- one guy had too many hens- almost all BB, but one pair of reds- and the other fella had excess cock birds- mostly color, with one BB. So, in that portion of my breeding "plan" which is a love connection free for all, odds are that mama is gonna be a BB, and daddy something else. And, I will fly them and see how they do, and the winners will become part of my long term breeding plans- no matter what the color.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Color doesn't make a difference.


I would embellish this a bit. Color doesn't make a difference unless you use it in the selection of your race birds. In other words if you like pretty colors and breed to color and not race results you are in trouble. Now if your two best birds in your loft are mealy you better have a loft full of mealies in a few years, if BB better see some BB in the loft. My best breeders and racers happen to be BB and BC. Are all my birds these colors, mostly yes. I do have two red birds and a mealy in my loft. The red birds are race winners and the mealy has bred me very good birds. I don't particularly like red birds, but I do like winners. I think I am putting a really nice splash bird in my Breast Cancer Auction. Its grandsire is my best breeder. My first bird in the trap is my favorite color.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

re lee said:


> I think you are wrong. Color really does not make a bird smaller. IN breeding and pair selection makes birds smaller. And working ONLY within a color line reduces the quality of selection. And many that work a color line stay within that color And forget Quality first color second. As color can be regained. And new color lines have to be set and quality returned. Far as race birds. Any color can win. If bred up to quality for the races. More blues are raced Some even think if it is not a blue bar or blue check it is not any good. But they have blinders on and see only 1 way.


I agree...when I was keeping Birmingham Rollers, the two largest birds in my loft (and both great rollers) were two almond hens. The smallest bird in my loft was a black and white baldhead. The baldhead was probably the best roller of my flock.


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

thank you all

I got many lessons from this informative topic


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I would embellish this a bit. Color doesn't make a difference unless you use it in the selection of your race birds. In other words if you like pretty colors and breed to color and not race results you are in trouble. Now if your two best birds in your loft are mealy you better have a loft full of mealies in a few years, if BB better see some BB in the loft. My best breeders and racers happen to be BB and BC. Are all my birds these colors, mostly yes. I do have two red birds and a mealy in my loft. The red birds are race winners and the mealy has bred me very good birds. I don't particularly like red birds, but I do like winners. I think I am putting a really nice splash bird in my Breast Cancer Auction. Its grandsire is my best breeder. My first bird in the trap is my favorite color.


That is true. But as far as saying the color of a bird alone effects it, it doesn't. Color genetics do just that - they effect the color. Not the size, shape, speed, or homing ability. But if you breed for color alone, everything else is ignored unless you take the time to keep up both performance and color.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> That is true. But as far as saying the color of a bird alone effects it, it doesn't. Color genetics do just that - they effect the color. Not the size, shape, speed, or homing ability. But if you breed for color alone, everything else is ignored unless you take the time to keep up both performance and color.


This is why I am glad I accidentally ended up with color- now I can breed for performance, and if by chance my color birds are any good, I will have a nice mosaic in the loft.  . I'm a sucker for color- but a bigger sucker for fast flying homing machines.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think we can also get into trouble a bit using any criteria other than race results and that fact that it is a homing pigeon. When we start using pedigree, color, eyesign, the way it feels etc into factoring what we stock we are adding non factors into the mix. The fastest birds wins not the fastest bird with the pretty pedigree, or the fastest white bird, or the fastest Ganus bird. The fastest bird period. Use that for selection.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I totally agree!


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## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

Below is one of my adds I ran back in 07' when racing a double race schedule with a predominantly white/white grizzle team. Birds were flown in different directions, flying natural system (eggs/youngsters), and a schedule that few fanciers could race with your standard blue bars & checks. My whole team consisted of less than 60 birds. As add says at top, living proof that "Kuhn's Whiteracers, the loft where Whites Fly and Old Theories Die!!!" How many lofts could race 26 races in a single season which includes 2X 100M, 5X 150M, 5x 200M, 4X 400M, 4X 450M, 2X 600M? Blue check pictured in middle is off of white grizzles, and #1418 grizzle cock went on to become Champion Bird following year in club. 
If one cultivates a family of birds and only breeds from the best, you can win with any color racing no matter what your competition is. Currently working on yellows & dominant opal family of racers. Bottom line, color doesn't matter on race day, just quality of birds and fancier's preparation.

Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664
http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com

http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well, i think any new color would be of a lesser quality, Like the people mixing in different breeds of birds to get color. Like Gimpel Homer, how many archangels do you need put in there to get a gimpel looking homer, so in that way they are probably not as good because they have archangel in them, and recently. So any color project which is still in creation would probably be of lesser quality. But people have said racers are selectivity breed. So if you breed a racer to archangel then you get a homers. You would have to go back to selectively breeding to get a racer. Two steps backwards to go one step forward in color.


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I think we can also get into trouble a bit using any criteria other than race results and that fact that it is a homing pigeon. When we start using pedigree, color, eyesign, the way it feels etc into factoring what we stock we are adding non factors into the mix. The fastest birds wins not the fastest bird with the pretty pedigree, or the fastest white bird, or the fastest Ganus bird. The fastest bird period. Use that for selection.


Thank You all

hillfamilyloft, i like your comment so much


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I have said for years You could have a bird that is pink with yellow polka dots And if it wins people will be at your door wanting to buy birds that are pink with yellow polka dots. PLUS if a person just puts winner to winner for breeding they will soon have a loft full of losers. Its takes more then just a bird that wins to breed and raise winners. consistant birds grand children from winners Ect those birds often make the best breeders. Race and test the birds and breeder and test the young This builds a loft. Color any color can be used and maintaed to a good quality AS LONG as the person uses QUALITY from all colors to keep the strenghs needs for performance. Outside colors meant breed outcross which means Years to bring back performance And some color lines JUST can not and will not hold up to the longer harder races But hold to the 300 most often WHY because of feathere make up. The soft colors birds often have a finer and weake quill Which in hard racing you see the feather look almost like it was burned off. So a person has to know the limits on some colors as to racing distance. Browns, true silvers, ect Not light colored Birds but the true browns and such


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

re lee said:


> I have said for years You could have a bird that is pink with yellow polka dots And if it wins people will be at your door wanting to buy birds that are pink with yellow polka dots. PLUS if a person just puts winner to winner for breeding they will soon have a loft full of losers. Its takes more then just a bird that wins to breed and raise winners. consistant birds grand children from winners Ect those birds often make the best breeders. Race and test the birds and breeder and test the young This builds a loft. Color any color can be used and maintaed to a good quality AS LONG as the person uses QUALITY from all colors to keep the strenghs needs for performance. Outside colors meant breed outcross which means Years to bring back performance And some color lines JUST can not and will not hold up to the longer harder races But hold to the 300 most often WHY because of feathere make up. The soft colors birds often have a finer and weake quill Which in hard racing you see the feather look almost like it was burned off. So a person has to know the limits on some colors as to racing distance. Browns, true silvers, ect Not light colored Birds but the true browns and such


Thank you for this good post
Plz I want more enplane about this words


> PLUS if a person just puts winner to winner for breeding they will soon have a loft full of losers


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## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

re lee said:


> I have said for years You could have a bird that is pink with yellow polka dots And if it wins people will be at your door wanting to buy birds that are pink with yellow polka dots.* PLUS if a person just puts winner to winner for breeding they will soon have a loft full of losers*. Its takes more then just a bird that wins to breed and raise winners. consistant birds grand children from winners Ect those birds often make the best breeders. Race and test the birds and breeder and test the young This builds a loft. Color any color can be used and maintaed to a good quality AS LONG as the person uses QUALITY from all colors to keep the strenghs needs for performance. Outside colors meant breed outcross which means Years to bring back performance And some color lines JUST can not and will not hold up to the longer harder races But hold to the 300 most often WHY because of feathere make up. *The soft colors birds often have a finer and weake quill Which in hard racing you see the feather look almost like it was burned off*. So a person has to know the limits on some colors as to racing distance. Browns, true silvers, ect Not light colored Birds but the true browns and such



I don't know if I necessarily agree with breeding winner to winner, will eventually breed a loft full of losers. You want to breed the best to the best and won't breed winners every time, but your percentage of good birds definately goes up. As for soft colored bird's feathers breaking down more quickly, there is some truth, but I have found if birds are given baths weekly and one stays on top of preventing feather lice which also contribute greatly to feather break down, concern over soft feathers is minimul. White is one of the supposedly "softest" feathers out there, and I haven't noticed any difference on my birds that are flown just as hard if not harder than some of my competitors at the end of the season. I will say that I have noticed with browns, the feathers seem to fade and break down probably the quickest out of any color I have worked with and raced. I would like to see more people try racing the non-standard colors and don't want to discourage people from flying what colors they enjoy. When you do score with these colors, it adds an extra sense of accomplishment. Here in Minnesota, with temperatures dropping below freezing for a good part of the year, I wanted birds I enjoyed looking at when feeding/watering them 365 days a year. Your standard blue bars and checks, just don't do that for me. 

Dennis Kuhn 
http://www.pigeonsupplieplus.com

http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

dennis kuhn said:


> I don't know if I necessarily agree with breeding winner to winner, will eventually breed a loft full of losers. You want to breed the best to the best and won't breed winners every time, but your percentage of good birds definately goes up. As for soft colored bird's feathers breaking down more quickly, there is some truth, but I have found if birds are given baths weekly and one stays on top of preventing feather lice which also contribute greatly to feather break down, concern over soft feathers is minimul. White is one of the supposedly "softest" feathers out there, and I haven't noticed any difference on my birds that are flown just as hard if not harder than some of my competitors at the end of the season. I will say that I have noticed with browns, the feathers seem to fade and break down probably the quickest out of any color I have worked with and raced. I would like to see more people try racing the non-standard colors and don't want to discourage people from flying what colors they enjoy. When you do score with these colors, it adds an extra sense of accomplishment. Here in Minnesota, with temperatures dropping below freezing for a good part of the year, I wanted birds I enjoyed looking at when feeding/watering them 365 days a year. Your standard blue bars and checks, just don't do that for me.
> 
> Dennis Kuhn
> http://www.pigeonsupplieplus.com
> ...


White is not the softest color It is not even considered a soft color. And certion whites feathers hold up rather well. Far as winner to winner. It just means if you base your breeding program on just that you are certion to fail. It takes more then just that to make a loft. AND here in the good old USA the word winner Means little As certion people BUY winners just as an investment selling bird after bird after bird From those winners And only that small handful are decent birds. Base a breeding loft on 1 winners that produce. consistant birds that produce. And performance of the oof spring. Not a pretty pedigree. As 8 out of ten of those offspring are not future breeders or decent flyers. If a person does not have that bird that meets the needs of another certion bird Do not pair it just to pair the bird But hold it until you have that bird. YEs it would be great if many in the hobby took on the side and time to breed up some of the colors out there more It would be a rewarding part As long as they do not become blind as quality is in all birds Not just 1 color so using quality while building a color group Takes time but makes the hobby interesting. And when Key players set about to do this watch out because COLORS would improve rather fast Some fail to see the hobby any more they see it as a must be able to win And build there loft often by the FAD of the day By this they just help the person doing the selling. How can lets say A certion NAMED bird raise so many birds that are good. How many certion named birds do just the members here have that are offspring grandchildren ect Of those named birds God never New a pigeon could raise so many Great birds. But they sure look good on that paper. it takes more to win and do good othere then winner to winner. But best bird for the best bird means the pair should click and raise hoplefully 1 bird that year that can be used.


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## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

re lee said:


> White is not the softest color It is not even considered a soft color. And certion whites feathers hold up rather well. Far as winner to winner. It just means if you base your breeding program on just that you are certion to fail. It takes more then just that to make a loft. AND here in the good old USA the word winner Means little As certion people BUY winners just as an investment selling bird after bird after bird From those winners And only that small handful are decent birds. Base a breeding loft on 1 winners that produce. consistant birds that produce. And performance of the oof spring. Not a pretty pedigree. As 8 out of ten of those offspring are not future breeders or decent flyers. If a person does not have that bird that meets the needs of another certion bird Do not pair it just to pair the bird But hold it until you have that bird. YEs it would be great if many in the hobby took on the side and time to breed up some of the colors out there more It would be a rewarding part As long as they do not become blind as quality is in all birds Not just 1 color so using quality while building a color group Takes time but makes the hobby interesting. And when Key players set about to do this watch out because COLORS would improve rather fast Some fail to see the hobby any more they see it as a must be able to win And build there loft often by the FAD of the day By this they just help the person doing the selling. How can lets say A certion NAMED bird raise so many birds that are good. How many certion named birds do just the members here have that are offspring grandchildren ect Of those named birds God never New a pigeon could raise so many Great birds. But they sure look good on that paper. it takes more to win and do good othere then winner to winner. But best bird for the best bird means the pair should click and raise hoplefully 1 bird that year that can be used.


White may not be the softest feather, I think brown is as it fades so much and seems to break down during racing quickly (my experience). White is though, still considered by many as soft feather. Many fanciers don't even want a white flighted pigeon on their race team for this fact. That is part of the reason why I raced the double schedule in 07', and 09', to prove this theory wrong, as well as the fact that I enjoy racing/competition. When it comes to breeding 1st place winners, I should clarify, if you can breed two 1st winners that both won 500 miles, my experience has been the percentage of "good birds" out of that pairing goes up compared to two birds that have been bred for stock for generations with a fancy pedigree. I also don't suggest pairing a 1st 100M winner to a 1st 600 mile winner as that is two totally different scenarios. I have had birds that I call iron pigeons or "marines' that have scored well either with wins or top diplomas at 100M and then at 500 or 600M racing, but they are few and far between. First place winners in my book are good birds, with some obviously being better than others in the breeding loft. Racing pigeons is like many other sports, in that the participants main objective is to take 1st place. My breeding program is based on performance first, color second. If you find a "good" pair or what some refer to as a hit pair, you should definately breed more than 1 or 2 top birds each year and want to work around building up a family around those key birds. The colors and direction I have taken over the last 25 plus years in the sport, are far from the latest *"Fad of the day".* I just hope that each and every individual in the hobby enjoys flying their birds, and respects this great hobby by showing good sportsmenship in the way of congratulating those that may beat you on race day. I also hope that fanciers take every opportunity they get to make the general public aware of pigeons in a good light by taking the time to explain about the different breeds, racing, as well showing pigeons. At the end of the day, no matter how you manage your loft/breeding/racing/showing, enjoying the birds at a personal level is what counts. 

Dennis Kuhn 
http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com

http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

dennis kuhn said:


> White may not be the softest feather, I think brown is as it fades so much and seems to break down during racing quickly (my experience). White is though, still considered by many as soft feather. Many fanciers don't even want a white flighted pigeon on their race team for this fact. That is part of the reason why I raced the double schedule in 07', and 09', to prove this theory wrong, as well as the fact that I enjoy racing/competition. When it comes to breeding 1st place winners, I should clarify, if you can breed two 1st winners that both won 500 miles, my experience has been the percentage of "good birds" out of that pairing goes up compared to two birds that have been bred for stock for generations with a fancy pedigree. I also don't suggest pairing a 1st 100M winner to a 1st 600 mile winner as that is two totally different scenarios. I have had birds that I call iron pigeons or "marines' that have scored well either with wins or top diplomas at 100M and then at 500 or 600M racing, but they are few and far between. First place winners in my book are good birds, with some obviously being better than others in the breeding loft. Racing pigeons is like many other sports, in that the participants main objective is to take 1st place. My breeding program is based on performance first, color second. If you find a "good" pair or what some refer to as a hit pair, you should definately breed more than 1 or 2 top birds each year and want to work around building up a family around those key birds. The colors and direction I have taken over the last 25 plus years in the sport, are far from the latest *"Fad of the day".* I just hope that each and every individual in the hobby enjoys flying their birds, and respects this great hobby by showing good sportsmenship in the way of congratulating those that may beat you on race day. I also hope that fanciers take every opportunity they get to make the general public aware of pigeons in a good light by taking the time to explain about the different breeds, racing, as well showing pigeons. At the end of the day, no matter how you manage your loft/breeding/racing/showing, enjoying the birds at a personal level is what counts.
> 
> Dennis Kuhn
> http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com
> ...


Good Post. I like you attitude towards the hobby


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