# PoopMaster's Dubious Taste....



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hello again, folks - since there doesn't seem to be a subforum for _Crazy Pigeons_ (perhaps because they're _all _a bit loony?) I had no other choice than to post my query here. 

As some of you remember from our last episodes of the PoopMaster Saga, I'm currently living with a slightly PMV-impaired young adult pigeon which I took in and raised from baby pigeonhood.

After totally destroying my habitation and my social life, he's currently been displaying some new and rather strange behavoir. It's possible he's doing this just to further confuse and demoralize me, just as it is also possible that _this is actually the way he thinks:_ at odd moments, I'll catch him walking around the guano-field that my living-space has become _...trying to eat bits of his own dried poop._  

Now it's not as if I'm not feeding him (including vitamins), supplying excellent grit and constantly chasing him out of my own plate when I attempt to feed myself...and I wouldn't even complain if he actually managed to get the poop into his beak and down his gullet (he's a bit uncoordinated when it comes to anything larger than a small grains and seeds), since if he did, it would be a perfect solution to the massive poop problem here: *a pigeon that cleans up after itself by eating its own poop!* 

No, unfortunately, I don't even have that much luck with this little feathered freak.

So, my question is....is this _normal?_ What's he trying to tell me here? Is this his silent and sarcastic comment on what I'm giving him to eat? _Does he expect Buluga caviar? _  

I thought it a bit strange when he started watching television with me or observing my surfing habits on the screen of my laptop while I'm in bed connected to the Internet. Now that I've gotten used to that, he pulls this routine.  

All input will be appreciated; if anyone out there can talk some pigeon-sense to him, I'll PM my telephone number. 


- Confused in Paris.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Well no... that is not normal behaviour, obviously your feeding him/her very good food and grit. I would not let him eat it if you can clean after him more I guess this will help. I know someone soon will be on here shortly to help you more. Sometimes they have to be taught NO and offer him/her the good food, pigeons are extremely bright birds and learn rather quickly. There might be something else going on with him like... maybe you need to feed him more larger seeds by hand and fill him up a bit more so he is more satified and won't run to the poo and say yum yum  

Cindy


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## nbdyuknow (Apr 10, 2007)

*poo poo eating*

Hi,

I am not an expert on pigeons or corphagia, but a helpful solution to poop vs living space situation might be to get some PGWear for him. Rather belatedly, after my office, clothes and office chair were forever altered due to heaving pooping, did I discover PGWear. It has really made a difference, and in your case, it might also allieviate some of the poop-eating opportunities.

Bill B.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Thanks for your input, people....

I repeat that he's eating well: he's even getting a bit _fat!_ He waddles around here like a little turkey.

Pigeon diaper(s) is in the pipeline: I just have to get psychologically used to the idea - after losing a old friend when I mentioned what I was going to do: he decided I had definitively gone around the bend. 

On the other hand, maybe I have. 

Maybe I'm just _imagining_ all of this.

I wonder when I'm going to wake up to a clean, serene and PoopMaster-less apartment?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi ryannon,

I KNOW we had a discussion and some links in regards to pigeons eating their poop, just can't find it.

Try putting "poop eating" or "eating poop" in the SEARCH engine, and all kinds of threads pop up. It's one of the most discussed topics on this forum, pigeon poop...that is.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

To be fair to the PoopMeister, I've never seen him actually _swallow_ it. But he does put a lot of effort into trying to...

On the other hand, I have no idea of what goes on when I'm not here.

Probably better that I don't.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Beats me! Only thing I can think of is maybe there's some kind of mineral trace elements or whatever that he's needing. Can't imagine what, but there are mineral blocks, reddish in color, which are just crumbled into a dish, obtainable from pigeon supply places.

Other thing, is it just possible that his eyesight is a little doubtful and he actually isn't aware that it's poop he's picking up?

John


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I seem to recall a thread that discussed pigeons NEED to eat poop occasionally but, like Treesa, couldn't find anything. Maybe Terry will remember.  

Ryannon, I hope your pal keeps doing strange things - they are very entertaining!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Maybe this is the thread that you're looking for???


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15479


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I seem to recall a thread that discussed pigeons NEED to eat poop occasionally but, like Treesa, couldn't find anything. Maybe Terry will remember.
> 
> *Ryannon, I hope your pal keeps doing strange things - they are very entertaining*!


I, too, remember a post about poops...actually, there were a couple. But the one that discussed the importance of poop, had to do with not cleaning out the nest after the babies were born. Something about poops and immunities.

*I agree with Maggie! I was laughing so hard, that Squeaks joined in! OK, when I laughed, he made some noises too...close enough!*

Too bad your friends don't seem to have a love of pigeons and a sense of humor, Ryannon...sounds like you need a different circle of friends. The PoopMeister certainly has you where he wants you! Sounds like quite a spoiled pij to me! Besides, I bet he's MUCH more entertaining than some TV shows! Consider yourself blessed! Also, without the PoopMeister, WE would be without such entertaining adventures! Laughter IS where it's AT!   

You give the PoopMeiser HUGS and SCRITCHES from Squeaks and me, y'hear?  

Shi

P.S. OOPS! Thanks, Renee, think that IS the link...I remember it now...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee, great job! That is the thread I remembered but then forgot.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, I remembered the thread and knew I was the one who started it, so it was easy to find............


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ryannon said:


> To be fair to the PoopMeister, I've never seen him actually _swallow_ it. But he does put a lot of effort into trying to...
> 
> On the other hand, I have no idea of what goes on when I'm not here.
> 
> Probably better that I don't.



Hi ryannon, 


Yes, none of us have any idea what they do when we are not there.

Some discrete 'Spy Cams' might be a good idea to find out!


I have had pretty much constant Pigeon companions/housemates for many years now, and I have never seen any try and eat poop, or even act like they were interested to do so.


I have a little Cockateil, and she likes to eat certain kinds of dry Pigeon poop, but only if it is totally dry, crunchy and pale in color.


My guess, is that she, and your Pigeon also, crave something which they sense may be 'in' these poops.


I do not however have any ideas about what that 'something' would be, other than Phosphorous/Boron/Magnesium traces, or, other obscure Mineral Trace Elements of some kind.

My Cockateil has refused all offerings and examples of fresh Greens, Vegetables and other potential sources of Nutrients, and eats only various Seeds, but is VERY interested in Bread, especially Crusts, Pie Crusts or Pastry Crusts, a legacy I think from her original home and the diet she must have had then.

She is very hurt if I am not generous and conspicuous in my offerings of these, any time I have a Sandwhich or slice-of-Pie or other, so, I always give her a little bit, and she is satisfied. I do not feel that these are good foods for her, but, she insists.

I still opffer Greens and Veggies, cut ever so thin and so on, and she grudgingly tases them with the tip of her Tongue, then shakes her head with one or anather order of emphatic rejection.

...sigh...


What is your Pigeon's diet? What foods do you provide?



One idea ( I have been meaning to try this for my Cockateil Hen, and I am glad you reminded me! ) would be to add a few drops of concentrated Sea Minerals to your Bird's drinking Water.

These may be had at any Health Food Store, and are not expensive, comes as a liquid.


I sometimes make Seeds with powdered Greens and other powder things on them ( adhering to a very light film of fresh Olive Oil ) , but the Cockateil 'hulls' her Seeds, and with doing so, discards most of whatever was on the Seed's outside, so that is not much good with her, even though it works well for Pigeons.



'Guano field' is oh so true..!



I could go into the Fertalizer Business I think.


Post some images..!


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi ryannon,
> 
> 
> I have a little Cockateil, and she likes to eat certain kinds of dry Pigeon poop, but only if it is totally dry, crunchy and pale in color.
> ...


I have a little Cockatiel hen who also will eat dried poop at times. The other hen does not, nor does the little male. So despite offerings of the greens, minerals, etc. I have come to the conclusion that she is seeking trace minerals of some, unknown to me, type.
If your little one likes breads etc. you might try Trader Joe's Stoned Wheat crackers as a treat. My Cockatiels (all three of them) practically do a jig when they see a stoned wheat cracker coming their way. The Parakeets think they are pretty special as well. You can also get the low salt variety which is probably healthier for them, although they do like the salt now and again. They also seem to like a bit of raw broccoli from time to time, preferring the peeled stems to the flowerlets. Ahhhh the things we do to keep our birdies healthy and happy. Spinach is also a favorite, but I limit it due to the known calcium depleting properties in it, especially for my one little hen who is an egg machine at intervals.

Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margarret,



Thanks, will do.

I am certain she will love them!


I like Trader Joes...

I will also keep a covered Cup of Mineral enhanced Water for her to try when she is on my Desk...otherwise, she drinks form the same waterers all the free fly ones share...and, really, now that I think of it, I could simply add some Mineral drops to those, and let everyone partake.


Too, I dols add some drops to Bread Crusts or Crackers, let them dry, and see if she elects those tid bits, over non-mineralized ones...yes, I think this would be the experiment to try...


Phil
l v


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Gee, Phil and Margaret AND Ryannon....maybe, just maybe, these birds like CRUNCHY things (think of the commercial, "betcha can't eat just ONE!")

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's probably a lack of something in their diet, but I like my version the best!  

Of course, in Phil's case, Buttercup was spoiled in her previous home and is just staying that way now (old habits die hard y'know!). I KNOW that Phil would never spoil Buttercup since I know he's a firm believer in "healthy" food and treats for his birds!   

Hugs & Scritches

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Most true Shi..!



'Butter Cup' from the beginning, would instantly leap or fly over to any Slice of Pie or Sandwhich or any sort of Lunch or Dinner I had, and start chowing down on the outer Crust of any thing Bread or Pastry like...or, indicate she is waiting for me to offer some.

I like Pie, so usually I have one where I have a slice a day, Berry Pies usually...Pie-and-Coffee


No one else of course has any interest in this at all, but to her, it is a big deal...so, I let her have what she likes of it, and or I decide when enough is enough if need be.


I myself have never tried a dry, pale, Pigeon poop, to see what it would taste like.

I should, just so I would know, but I have not.


I guess I am shy...


I do not know which apprehension is worse - 


That it would taste mildly bitter, astringent or just yucky...

Taste just merely a little salty and blahhh....

...or taste good...?

What if it did taste good?



Lol...


Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> I myself have never tried a dry, pale, Pigeon poop, to see what it would taste like.
> 
> I should, just so I would know, but I have not.
> 
> ...



Who knows, maybe this is what the little guy is trying to tell me... Um, thanks, but I think I'll pass on this, my friend.

I'm gradually learning not to obsess over him: he seems in great shape, happy, funny and alert - which is more than I can say about myself. 

Live and let live: I'm sure that if we were clever enough to understand, we'd find that these little companions are communicating all sorts of information to us - just as we are to them. If only we had eyes to see....

I love having him nearby - or discovering him hidden in a corner, temporarily seeking privacy and his own space. Every day is different, and holds a new surprise: tonight he's taken possession of a table near my bed, and God only knows why. Perhaps just to be contrary because he knows I bought him a special little wicker basket that I thought he'd like as a nest this afternoon? 

Sitting there, head turned to the wall, alternately snoozing and watching me, all while grunting like a contented little pig...what's going on inside that feathery head?

I've a feeling that I'm not at the end of my surprises...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ryannon, those little grunts sound like pure happiness to me.

We have a little girl, inappropriately (as always) named Jimmy Jack. Because she was a squab when we picked her up last January, we had to keep her in our home all winter and became too tame to release. She moved to the aviary with the others in early May but we bring her in the house most afternoons to "play". She is one of the rare ones - extremely tame and oh, so sweet. Anyhow, last winter, my husband Lewis taught her a game. He sits at the end of the kitchen table, pats his knee and she jumps on it, only to turn around and jump back on the table, but in the process slides about a foot. She loves this and will do it continuously. After her slide, she fans both wings and strolls or struts around the table. She is a feral and is very beautiful. They sure can wrap you around their wings.

Speaking of poop again, we have a large flock of ferals who live at a farm abut l/4 mile from us. There are numerous cows in the pasture and this morning when we went by they were all flying down where the cows were grazing and I believe, eating seed out of the cow poop. We have seen them do this many times. Wonder what keeps them from getting sick?


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Ryannon, those little grunts sound like pure happiness to me.
> 
> ....../
> 
> Speaking of poop again, we have a large flock of ferals who live at a farm abut l/4 mile from us. There are numerous cows in the pasture and this morning when we went by they were all flying down where the cows were grazing and I believe, eating seed out of the cow poop. We have seen them do this many times. Wonder what keeps them from getting sick?




Maggie, my (un)educated guess is that they have formidable immunity systems - built up over generations of living in all sorts of favorable and unfavorable conditions - that allow them to adapt as necessary.

Aside from that, cow dung is traditionally used for medicinal plasters, a substitute for firewood and even as a building material when mixed with straw and clay: probably much less toxic for humans - not to mention pigeons - than the average classroom, office or subway car...

And if these are farm animals, their food is probably dosed with antibiotics, pro-biotics, vitamins, minerals, steroids and everything else to reinforce up their resistance and health: those pigeons are no fools!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryannon, 



What are you feeding him? All tolled, what are his foods?



Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi ryannon,
> 
> What are you feeding him? All tolled, what are his foods?
> 
> ...



Given the elaborate and sophisticated feeding routines that I've read here, I'm a bit ashamed to say that I've been giving him off-the-shelf grain mixes (a sort of one-size fits all variety) for doves and pigeons. He generally chooses what he likes from the mix, which is just about everything - and leaves the rest - which is very little.

On the other hand, you have to understand that France - or at least the greater Paris area - is particularly backward when it comes to pigeon supplies: I've checked, and they just don't exist. Pigeons are seen as nuisances here, so very little attention is paid to the business of nourishing them.

I've used Google to try to find more specialized sources, but no luck so far. A few feeble links to places in Belgium or Holland, but the prices are prohibitive when you factor in shipping on consequent quantities.

This guy was born a feral, which for me means that he's the equivalent of a four-wheel drive vehicle that can run on just about anything. What he's getting now is certainly better than what all the other pigeons in the neighborhood are eating on a daily basis. I know that that's no excuse for giving him bad or inappropriate nourishment, but I don't feel that I am - and for the moment, he appears to be thriving on it.

As I've mentioned earlier, he's also PMV-impaired: he'll 'toss' anything too large, whereas the smaller grains in the mix work pretty well. I have experimented by adding things like corn and other goodies, but he can't manage to get them down.

Incidentally, I'm writing this at nearly four in the morning: he's recently taken to sleeping on my shoulder at night, and all hell breaks loose - meaning irritated growls and punitive pecks - when I turn over. But tonight there was an added twist: at one point (possibly because I left the window cracked open) he started _sneezing_ like crazy, and the _spray_ hitting my neck and cheek, along with the noise - practically in my ear - totally woke me up.

_A pigeon camped out on your shoulder as you sleep, sneezing in your ear and blowing spittle over your cheek and neck: believe me, you haven't lived until this happens to you._  

Anyway, after making sure he wasn't in trouble, I decided to check out the forum, and here I am again.

As for him, he's just fine: standing on on foot in the middle of my bed and preening his feathers as if this were the most natural thing in the world to do in the middle of the night.

I knew I was nowhere near the end of my surprises with this guy. 

Now if I could only get back to sleep....


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I sure hope you will be able to get back to sleep, eventually, Ryannon!

You and Phil and the only ones I know who sleep with the pigeons... 

Ahhh, the tales you two can share...

Guess, you will be keeping tissues or a small towel nearby from now on, eh?

Sometimes, when they are older, they will eat bigger seeds. Squeaks didn't eat the bigger peas for a long time. Also, I hope that you give whole kernal corn?

Hugs and Scritches

Shi 
& Squeaks (who likes sleeping in his own nest...with his egg!)


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Well, I did buy him a lovely little wicker basket and put a soft towel in it in the hopes that he'd start spending the night in it....  

But he only walked over and looked at it suspiciously - as if it were some second-rate Motel 6 instead of my comfortable bed (and shoulder). 

Sigh


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

ryannon said:


> Well, I did buy him a lovely little wicker basket and put a soft towel in it in the hopes that he'd start spending the night in it....
> 
> But he only walked over and looked at it suspiciously - as if it were some second-rate Motel 6 instead of my comfortable bed (and shoulder).
> 
> Sigh


Hey, Ryannon, if you had checked with the site first, we could have told you not to waste your money!  

I mean, gee whiz...a Motel 6 when he can have the HILTON?? Sounds like a classy pij with discriminating taste to me!  

However, I'm sure he might use the lovely wicker basket ONE of these days, if only to wait until you are asleep...

I really LIKE this pij! Surely he needs an _additional _name other than PoopMeister...something...well...royal? unique? proud? noble? grand?

Shi


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

mr squeaks said:


> I really LIKE this pij! Surely he needs an _additional _name other than PoopMeister...something...well...royal? unique? proud? noble? grand?
> 
> Shi



Poopinator?

His Majesty the Royal PoopMeister?

Il Gran Poopissimo?

How about The _MOAP?_


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryannon, 



The diet and health and longevity of ferals will vary widely.


Probably, you are thinking of inner-city Birds, confined to Asphalt and paved places with no conspicuous access to open fields or wild Greens, Mineral deposits, or learned tastes for elsewhere.


The ferals here will eat/peck 'Sheetrock' as a source of Minerals, which is Gypsum-Board to some...which is made of Calcium Sulphate (CaSO4.½ H2O ).

I need to research this more, as for what else is in it, if anything, and or how Calcium Sulphate compares to other sources of Calcium for it's amenibility to being utilized by the Body.


The 14 foot Ceilings in my Workshop, the Sheetrock had fallen in some small ways from when the Roof used to leak, leaving some openings in the Ceiling.


Various ferals, and four ex-ferals who live in my Shop and fly out every day as they please...they have eaten quite a bit from the available edges of the Sheetrock.


Maybe I could post an image, I will see if there is enough Light to make one.



The ferals here ( inner city, downtown Las Vegas ) brouse various low Weeds which grow in the alleys or vacant lots, eating the small fruiting Bodys and Leaves from them, leaving merely the stems sometimes.


The ferals here eat fallen Olives from the many Olive Trees people have planted, and these Olives are normal sized ones too, I am amazed they can swallow them..! Let along, have it pass from their Crop once they do..!!!

But they do...

They eat many things almost no one knows about or bothers to notice.


Now, of course, the ferals who are born next to some fast food place, end up sometimes adopting a 'dumpster' diet, and these I doubt live more than some months before perishing, often, they can not even fly for all the rancid Oil caking their feathers, and likely their Arteries also...


So, be careful in generalizing as to quality of life, diet, longevity, or anything alse about ferals, because there is a huge difference from one small area to another, as to what they eat, what they learn to eat, and what boons or liabilities their ways of Life and diet may have.


Indoor Birds of course have little choice to roam and seek out variety in foods or intuitively elected suppliments.


Wild or feral Birds usually do...and will seek out naturally occuring or other sources of Minerals or Foods which contain things their systems need.


So, when we think of 'Pigeon Supplies' we should remember these Birds ar no different in their needs than the Wild Rock Doves they descend from.

So, the more we might know about what Wild Rock Doves or clcver ferals actually eat, seek out as for Minerals, elect as Vegetative grazings in their own regions or neighborhoods...the more we may appreciate what to feed or supply for our Birds.


I know definitely two particular ferals here who I helped out in 1993 and 1994who were adults then, and you could not tell them now from any other healthy feral if you did not know the particular details on their individuality to spot them.


So these two Birds, who do not look 'old' at all, and who knows how many others of the outdoor feral Worlds, are at least 14 years old, and holding their own as nice as anyone could wish.

And one of these, 'Stubby' at least not too many months ago, showed those 'wet' Mouth corners one sees when they have been feeding Babys, so for all I know, she was still being a Momma even though well into her years...and who knows how old she was in 1993 - '94 when I helped her with her loss of her Foot from thread?



Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Holy SheetRock!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Ryannon...

Getting back to your original question about your bird ingesting poop and whether or not this is "normal", well "yes" is the answer.

There are lots of animals that re-ingest their own fecal matter and for example; cows, pigs, chickens, guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, rats, rabbits and many other herbivores regularly do this.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the animal is lacking in minerals as such, but it is a recycling thing that they do to get the most and within their resources. Waste not, want not...pardon the pun, lol.

Anyway, for pigeons, this is not unusual at all and dried poops ARE what will be eaten if they are going to be reingested. 

Animals know what they're doing and what they need...instinctively, so it's best that we don't question what appears to be "bizarre" behaviour to us....


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Animals know what they're doing and what they need...instinctively, so it's best that we don't question what appears to be "bizarre" behaviour to us....


I agree with you, Brad...

More detailed observation of The MOAP reveals that he's a sort of wacky omnivore: everything gets pecked at as if he were trying to ingest it: television, telephone, computer cables, crumbs, poop, speakers, chrome lamp-bases, etc. 

I think he's young and curious enough to still be in a learning phase concerning his 'environment', as in: "Hmm, that telephone looks interesting...I wonder if it's alive/edible? Oops, I guess not...".

OT, but...:

Phil's response just above shows a great sense of style: there were moments when I had to ask myself if I was not reading an essay by a learned 19-century naturalist...

Proof that, Hunter Thompson notwithstanding, there's at least one cultured individual in Las Vegas!

Or perhaps that sleeping with pigeons is _good for you_?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

ryannon said:


> Poopanator?
> 
> His Majesty the Royal PoopMeister?
> 
> ...


I think you lost me with MOAP...what is that or what does it stand for?

While your names ARE orginial...they are _not_ quite what I had in mind... 

Well, he IS your pij and I suppose you know best...

BTW, in May, 2006, Phil started a most delightful thread called *Calming an all-wound-up Peeper, Squeaker or Squab."* He mentioned some of his wonderful "techniques" including the famous Napolean Hand Nest and Squab-on-a-cob.

I am still not sure how to copy a past thread into a post, but, next time you can't sleep, just click on Phil's name, click Show All Threads and go to page 4...it's about half way down. We had some good times with that one (well, I sure did!)  

Bet you could come up with some goodies of your own!

Who needs friends when you have such a character for a roommate? Besides, we all know that _true_ friends are pigeon people too... 

Shi & Squeaks


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

ryannon said:


> Pigeon diaper(s) is in the pipeline: I just have to get psychologically used to the idea..


HAHAHA...........that's exactly what I said to my sister on the phone yesterday! It's a big step to take, the pigeon diapers~ even if practical...   

Your pigeon experience sounds so familiar... I found a little pigeon now 5 weeks ago, and she has truly won me over! She has also taken over some places in the flat, like just today she discovered the kitchen DOOR; how much fun it is to hang out on top of it... 

I've seriously NEVER had to vacuum clean this often! Pretty much 1-2 times DAILY! It's the seeds, they fly all over when she eats! (I keep trying to cover the bowl with some towel, just to prevent the seeds from flying all over the flat..)

The poops~ who would have guessed a little bird can poop so much?! And it really shows how much you love the bird when you don't complain when that 54th poop drops on the *floor for you to clean*!

The eating of the poop~ my bird has done the same a few times (tried to eat it), but I think it's just an accident... They just love to peck all the time...  

The TV~ mine likes to watch it too! She keeps flying to the bed to watch telly, which is RISKY with her pooping habits! 

But did you know, that pigeons are one of the six species in the world (including humans and apes) that can recognize themselves from a mirror? Meaning they immediately know they are looking at themselves, and not another bird... That's amazing! 

But also their ability to recognize 2D images, which for instance cats and dogs can't do... (Try showing some photos to your bird!)

Oh yeah, also pigeons can recognize familiar faces from photographs~ so it'll know that it's YOU in the picture! 

That's so amazing... 

But, I truly understand your situation with living in a SMALL flat with a pigeon! It's a bit of a hassle, but I guess it just takes some arrangement... They are just so captivating! Truly fascinating little creatures... 

Good luck with yours! And keep us up to date! I've been laughing my socks off after reading your posts!  

Bye!

Jo 
(half-American living in Denmark)


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

ryannon said:


> On the other hand, you have to understand that France - or at least the greater Paris area - is particularly backward when it comes to pigeon supplies: I've checked, and they just don't exist. Pigeons are seen as nuisances here, so very little attention is paid to the business of nourishing them.
> 
> I've used Google to try to find more specialized sources, but no luck so far. A few feeble links to places in Belgium or Holland, but the prices are prohibitive when you factor in shipping on consequent quantities.


I have the same thing over here in Denmark~ there's nothing especially for pigeons/doves in the shop. 

I also had to Google for some online shops around, and I found one with a cool selection~ AND the shipment outside UK was £10, but you paid the same for one product and all the way up! (I didn't check the big sacks of food though, only lots of different pigeon products..) 

So anyhow, if you want to check them out, here is the link:

(direct links to 2 different pigeon product pages)

http://www.petspantry.tv/acatalog/pigeon-remedies.html 

http://www.petspantry.tv/acatalog/pigeon-supplements.html

I think they had a good selection, and especially as it's impossible to buy stuff like this over here (and I guess also over there in France), I didn't mind paying that £10 for the delivery... 

Take care!

Jo


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Ps. I just checked; even if you ordered 20 kilos of pigeon seeds from the link I gave you, the delivery is still only that £10!

Not bad, eh?


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Jo, I enjoyed reading your own experiences and knowledge about pigeons - it's clear that you're really _into them_... that's also an interesting link for hard-to-find (in France) specialized pigeon products...I rather doubt that shipping a 20kg bag of mix from the UK to here is a feasible option, however.*

I did find one item that tempts me - it's actually for dogs, but since it was on the pigeon supplies list, I'll take it as an encouragement: 

_"For anxious, nervous, hyper active, excitable and stressed dogs. A combination of no less than three different ingredients (valerian, passiflora and hawthorn), all offering excellent calming properties."_

Sounds like just the thing for The MOAP, who's in fact getting more or more active/authoritative every day. Actually, I might try some myself: it would be great not to care about the mess and we could both chillout together..!  

==================================================

*My understanding of shipping prices to the continent is that they would be much higher than what you mentioned, based on their own prices to places like Northern Ireland or Scotland:

_"Post and packing charges for the Scottish Highlands and Islands, Isle of Man, Channel Islands and Northern Ireland are as follows...

Up to 15 Kgs - sent by Royal Mail Parcel Service - £14.99_


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

mr squeaks said:


> I think you lost me with MOAP...what is that or what does it stand for?
> 
> Shi & Squeaks




Just Google _MOAB_ and you'll see....


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Maybe your pigeon is a clean freak and your just not quick enough. 

I wonder, maybe he needs some pigeon toys lying around to entertain himself with.  then it may distract him from the pigeon poop.

They have (I believe its called) bitter apple that breaks bad habits for dogs, not sure how it would work on pigeon poop.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

*Moab* (Hebrew: מוֹאָב, Standard Moʾav Tiberian Môʾāḇ ; Greek Μωάβ ; Arabic مؤاب, Assyrian Mu'aba, Ma'ba, Ma'ab ; Egyptian Mu'ab) is the historical name for a mountainous strip of land in modern-day Jordan running along the eastern shore of the Dead Sea.


*Moab*, Utah


The new Massive Ordnance Air Blast, or *MOAB*


I Yahooo, so I maybe way off.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks, Kippy...

Must be the last...makes sense...kinda...

Shi


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

ryannon said:


> Jo, I enjoyed reading your own experiences and knowledge about pigeons - it's clear that you're really _into them_... that's also an interesting link for hard-to-find (in France) specialized pigeon products..................


Hehe, yeah I saw that product for hyper dogs there! If you (both) get to try it, do let me know how it turns out~ if it's good I'll get some for me and my bird, too!  

I'm actually not so experienced with pigeons~ I didn't know _anything_ about them still 5 weeks ago! All I knew was that I always liked to look at them on the streets, and feed them! But NOTHING else! It certainly hasn't been boring, which I'm sure you know all about, too!

So agree; as days go by the pigeon is getting MORE AND MORE active!! Like today, she's been flying around like crazy, landing on my head at least four times (which made me suspect my hair looks exactly like a *pigeon nest*? Luckily though, I had cut my dreadlocks just a few days before finding the bird, which I'm sure would've looked even more exciting for ANY pigeon!!  )

The delivery thing~ that's weird, because I put one of those feed bags into the shopping basket, and then checked out and typed in I live in France~ and it still showed the £10 shipping price!! (It was the same for me to Denmark!)

Anyhow, thanks for your post! And have a nice night/day over there with your funny bird! (It's soooo late already and I haven't gone to bed yet~ also the bird has adopted my late-night-rhythm...........ooops..... )


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

KIPPY said:


> The new Massive Ordnance Air Blast, or MOAB




Otherwise known as *The Mother of All Bombs*.

Now, change Bombs to _Poop_....


You have to understand..._he's just not a 'Scritchkins' kind of a bird!_


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryannon, 



As for your Bird's broader Nutritional interests - 


See the current thread of 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=23372


And give it a try...



Some of mine used to eat spent Match Heads...I decided it was mostly Hens seeking Phosphorous...


Lightly 'glistening' their Seeds with some fresh, brand new, NEVER the old one on the shelf which should be thrown out anyway, Olive Oil ( have some Seeds in a deep Can or Glass, add a little Oil, stirr thoroughly, and only make enough for the day)...is very good for them...and, allows 'powders' to adhere to the Seeds.


Thus, one may add powdered Purple Dulce, a little Brewer's Yeast, and other things to their Seeds, and the powders will stick, and the Bird will then get these desireable things also along with their Seeds as they peck.

Good for their Skin, good for their Feathers...


Anyway, Olive Oil...once opened will spoil in weeks, become rancid, and interfere with Vitamine and Mineral assimilation instead of assisting with those things...unless kept in the Refrigerator where it gets thick...so, keep it in the 'frige, and when you want to use it, just run some tepid Water over the Bottle for a few minutes and enough will become thin to pour some out.


No Chocolate or Avacado for Pigeons...


But any fresh Greens we would eat, should be fine for them.


Romaine and Iceburg Lettuces have very low values, while Sprouts and the Parcelys, Cilanrtos and less common anymore Greens are excellent.


Beet Tops, Carrot Tops, Chards, Endives, Kales, Broccoli Leaves, Dandy Lion Leaves...are all excellent...


Too, powdered 'Super Greens' and or Chlorella ( any Health Food Store ) are excellent and being powders may be adhered to 'glistend' Seeds...



Phil
l v


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

ryannon said:


> Otherwise known as *The Mother of All Bombs*.
> 
> Now, change Bombs to _Poop_....
> 
> ...



Mmm, well, he's young yet. While music may soothe the "savage beast," don't dismiss "time."

Squeaks isn't always the "scritchiness" kind of guy either...UNLESS he is in mate mode OR wants attention on HIS terms. 

Never say Never, Ryannon, even with the 007 of pijies...   

Shi
& Squeaks (who, unfortunately, thinks MOAB(P?) is a pij after his own heart - a fellow feathered "brother" or "sister.")


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*What do pigeons say about us?*

Hello Ryannon,

Maybe your pigeon is thinking of becoming a vacuum cleaner salesman: "You (addressing potential customer) can clean the hard way, which I've done often, picking up poops with your beak and carrying them around in your crop and stomach, or you can buy my exclusive PoopVac."

Hold up a mirror to yourself: Your pigeon is on Human-Life.net with other pigeons, discussing weird human servants, coming up with comment such as:

... they take weeds, set them on fire, stick them in their mouths and suck in the smoke. Smoke is definitely poisonous, and we know humans are aware of it because they are told so repeatedly on their TVs;

... they take dead animals, diseased, and inject small amounts of this stuff into their system with syringes. They call it vaccination.

... they drink poison alcohol to deaden their reflexes and then drive to their deaths in horrible smash-ups. They can't seem to avoid collisions. Last time I saw two birds collide was, um, during a hurricane ... they weren't flying of course - too intelligent for that -- but were caught up in it suddenly.

... I try to teach my human to open the window for me, turn down the TV, go to bed at sunset, rise at dawn, swallow small amounts, but not much luck. 

... they don't even have the good sense to grow feathers, or at least more hair, which is a proto-feather or some genetic mistake gone haywire. Look at all those sags and wrinkles! 

... they don't have the decency to let some hungry animal take them down ad recycle them before they get so old and ripe and rancid and disgusting. They hang around, and hang around, and hang around, gum their food, and eat healthy young animals who should be in their place instead.

I'm glad I don't understand what pigeons say about me! although, I do have some suspicions. I don't think they are flattering. I am barely tolerated. But that should satisfy me, and I should feel complimented by their tolerance.

Larry


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

On the other hand, you have to understand that France - or at least the greater Paris area - is particularly backward when it comes to pigeon supplies: I've checked, and they just don't exist. Pigeons are seen as nuisances here, so very little attention is paid to the business of nourishing them.

I've used Google to try to find more specialized sources, but no luck so far. A few feeble links to places in Belgium or Holland, but the prices are prohibitive when you factor in shipping on consequent quantities.


Hello Jonathan
I'll probably visit my pigeons friends in Paris for a protest-manifestation against pigeon killing in december (will tell you the details if you want to participate and know pigeon friendly people there)
I could bring you pigeon supplies from Belgium.
I think a 25 kg bag of seeds will last long for one pigeon (they need 40 grams a day); I could also bring grit, minerals and vitamines. Just tell me what you need.
Myriam


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

myrpalom said:


> Hello Jonathan
> I'll probably visit my pigeons friends in Paris for a protest-manifestation against pigeon killing in december (will tell you the details if you want to participate and know pigeon friendly people there)
> I could bring you pigeon supplies from Belgium.
> I think a 25 kg bag of seeds will last long for one pigeon (they need 40 grams a day); I could also bring grit, minerals and vitamines. Just tell me what you need.
> Myriam



That's very kind of you, Myriam! I've replied at greater length in an email to you, which you've doubtlessly already received.

The little guy is doing fine, picking huge fights with my hand before he climbs up onto my shoulder and dozes off for the night. 

He really seems to enjoy these mock battles, replete with rised hackles, menacing grunts, serious head-bobbing, ominous wing-twitching and some heart-felt pecks and bites. He's getting quite good at it, and I pity any pigeon that would attract his ire.

My own feeling about this is that all of the intense activity is actually having a positive effect on his lingering PMV symptoms: he seems progressively quicker and more coordinated, and today he 'helicoptered' himself up into the air significantly higher than ever before - until he verred off and crashed, as usual.

I'm trying to work with this bird instinctively, attempting to pick up on his cues to me, rather than imposing my own rules and expectations. I'm still not convinced that he'll ever fly, but even if he never does, I believe it's important to help him develop as many reflexes as possible rather than relegating him to the static position of the permanently handicapped.

He seems to need me as something to measure himself against: at once friend, playmate and sparring partner, I'm trying to provide some of the input and stimuli that are lacking due to his lack of contact with his own world. There's nothing laborious or pre-conceived about this home-grown 'physical therapy' - it's evolved very naturally like a series of games between us, with Poopzilla himself initiating them and then taking the lead...

But I do wonder if this will lead anywhere - or if it's just an elaborate way for both of us to try to forget the monotomy of our respective existences.....?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

On the subject of poop-eating.. My pigeon Toad finds bringing pieces of dried up poop to his lady, Muffin, very fancy indeed. Though I really don't think she agrees with him. Pigeons are very strange, strange critters. I doubt we'll ever be able to fully comprehend their pigie-ness.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Vasp said:


> On the subject of poop-eating.. My pigeon Toad finds bringing pieces of dried up poop to his lady, Muffin, very fancy indeed. Though I really don't think she agrees with him. Pigeons are very strange, strange critters. I doubt we'll ever be able to fully comprehend their pigie-ness.



Just as I'll never quite understand why they make me smile and laugh so much - in short, why I love them the way I do...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovely Birds!


Wfun...


Different individual Pigeons will definitely elect items which appeal to them too.


One of mine used to steal Keys, and had about fourteen Keys in the Nest he brought the materials to for his mate. It was a high Nest and I had no idea he had so many Keys in it..! I had no idea he was even taking Keys!

He had the Keys to my '53 Plymouth, my spare Shop Keys, my ex-girlfriend's spare house and Car keys, Keys I had no idea what they went to! Keys I had no idea how I had lost them! - Keys I did not know i had lost! and it drove me nuts looking for those Plymouth keys and other Keys, off and on for months..!


Another one, whose 'Secret Nest' I just found by accident...he has been bringing his mate empty Cigarette Packages, and they have maybe 20 of them in their Nest...all in a little secluded corner behind my Dresser.


One of the ones in my Work Shop, used to gather Brass and Steel Wood Screws, small Taps, small Drill bits, Cotter Pins, and so on and had well over a hundred of them in their Nest...


Pretty creative..!


Lol...

Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Just like little kids collecting colored stones, bottle-caps, shiny bits of foil...I think we all did this at one point or another; it gives me a handle for understanding pigeon-logic.

It's not that I want to _humanize_ them or turn them into us - which would be pretty insulting for the pigeons - but I do believe that many of their emotional states and thought processes are very similar - comparable perhaps to those of a very young child.

I don't think this similarlity is limited to pigeons, either: if you take a step back from your preconceptions about the 'differences' between people and animals, you can see it wherever you look.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

LOL Toad definitely has weird taste then. He doesn't like shiny keys or screws or anything, he just likes pieces of dried poop. Wonderful.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Hey Ryannon,

how is it going with MOAB? Is he doing ok, and have you found a solution with keeping him in the flat? Still poop and seeds everywhere? 

I found a solution for the seeds everywhere; I only let the bird eat in a box, which is open in the flat with two bowls in it, so she can just fly in it to eat ~ and as there are the edges of the box, the seeds don't fly around the flat anymore! It's great, I don't need to vacuum clean daily anymore! 

I don't have a solution for the pooping yet, I just unrealistically hope she'll grow out of it. But there are a few places she likes to sit on, so I've put newspaper on the floor under those spots.. Yes, has helped.  

But yeah, I hope you both are doing good!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ippychick said:


> Hey Ryannon,
> 
> how is it going with MOAB? Is he doing ok, and have you found a solution with keeping him in the flat? Still poop and seeds everywhere?
> 
> ...



Hi ippychick, all




Yes...those three inch sided 'flats' which Paint Stores have, work great for floor Seed-Bowl setting...the scattered seeds stay in pretty well...


Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

ippychick said:


> Hey Ryannon,
> 
> how is it going with MOAB? .... I hope you both are doing good!



Hi, and thanks for the good wishes!

MOAP a.k.a. Poopzilla, is doing fine - he's growing up - and out - of some previous habits, while developing some new ones: my bare foot has recently become a love-object/female pigeon surrogate, alternating with his 'arch' enemy and new sparring partner, depending on how his imagination is working. It usually works both ways: after trying to make love to it, his courting dance turns into a war dance and the soft caresses into sharp nips.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, _You only bite the one you love..._

I'm convinced that it's a form of play, comparable to a very young child playing out various games in his imagination.... Others will perhaps see still other causes and effects, but the important thing is that we're both happy.

As for the poop and seeds....the less said the better. It looks like I'm getting used to it, which in the present circumstances, is a healthy recognition of reality in an othewise totally unreal situation.

_'House pigeon' _indeed: in a country like France, I could be locked up for this sort of thing


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