# Severe watery poops - Interesting....



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

On Christmas Eve John found a pigeon (Noel) sitting on the edge of the pigeon bath on the balcony, it showed no resistance to being picked up so he brought it to me. Initially I put her in the empty house next door, now I am keeping her in the downstairs cloakroom and using a mask when I go in.

I have never seen such watery poops! It was drinking loads of water and soaking its towelling so much that it had to be changed several times a day.. It also showed signs of having a yeast infection - a little white lump under its tongue which has since gone.

I positioned him in such a way that the poops fell into a container and was able to collect a good test tube full. They looked exactly like the picture of the poops of a diabetic pigeon that I have in my poop book. I used a diastick to test for glucose and it showed that it was elevated, so off we went to the vet.

The vet tested the poops and disappeared for a while to read up on the subject. Although the glucose levels were elevated and diabetes was a possibility he said that it is very rare in pigeons and that it was more likely to be cocci or even PMV. He was going to test the sample for cocci and get back to me if it was possible. I asked about the yeast and he said that should clear itself up. No charge, bless him.

Well, he didn't get back to me and the poops gradually changed. First they were solid worm shapes then changed to a very soft and pea green, which is a sign of a yeast infection.

Today I went to see Noel and she was fast asleep on her perch, she didn't hear me come in.

The only food that has really tempted her has been peanuts so although they are not recommended for diabetes I give her a few, it is better than seeing her starve. So I put a couple down and she pecked enthusiastically, but missing her target by a good margin! So it looks as if she has PMV, maybe something else on top of that? 

This is actually the third pigeon that has developed the nervous symptoms of PMV on the seventh day after after arrival, which goes to show how very important isolation is. She is the first pigeon that has shown gastrointestinal symptoms on arrival.

I have treated Noel for canker and cocci and will keep an eye on her glucose levels.

She isn't out of the woods yet but she isn't drinking quite as much.

In view of our previous thread on watery poops, diabetes and pigeons I thought this case might be of particular interest to Pidgie and fp. 

Cynthia


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Cynthia,

Thanks for posting this information. One can never have too much reference info to draw on when trying to narrow down a diagnosis.

All the best in the New Year,

Ron


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, interesting symptoms. You may also want to consider lead poisoning. With the several we've had, all had extremely watery poops, couldn't or didn't want to eat, and exhibited some neurological symptoms. To the best of my knowledge, diagnosis can be made by x-ray. It can be treated if caught in time but it also weakens them so badly they usually succumb.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I know you will keep us updated...

I am very interested to see what comes up with more tests and how Noel progresses.

BEST HEALING THOUGHTS AND HUGS FOR YOU ALL!!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cynthia,

Noel seems to have some classic signs of coccidiosis, no desire to eat, sleeping quietly, and very wet poops. That has been the case with my birds.

I usually give them some healthy doses of probiotics and ACV, garlic and such, which pretty much clears up the problem.

Perhaps it is a secondary infection to PMV, or lead poisoning. I wouldn't rule out the lead poisoning that Maggie mentioned either, as it could be that. It wouldn't hurt to detox the bird.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

How would a pigeon get lead poisoning?

This one is, far as I know, one of the gang which regularly visits my balcony for food and a bath.

I saw that while s/he had a pot of barley & mixed corn in the cage, he took little notice of it. As Cynthia said, he only seemed interested in peanuts. When, however, I filled his pot with the same pigeon mix as my ferals get, he appeared to recognize that and started rummaging into it and (possibly) eating some. I said to Cynthia.. proves he's one of mine 

Cynthia mentioned the delayed evidence of PMV... the previous one I found on my balcony was one of those, so it wouldn't surprise me if Noel is a PMV case too.

John


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

We can rule out coccidiosis because the vet tested the poops. But before that I had also treated him with Appertex as a precaution.

The wild birds that are most exposed to lead poisoning are swans, who get it from the lead sinkers used by fishermen. It can also be the result of birds eating other birds that have lead shot in them.

This is a link to how pet birds can be poisoned with lead.

http://www.theparrotsocietyuk.org/poisons.shtml 

It would be more difficult for a feral pigeon in the UK to be poisoned by lead. The likely sources would be lead based paint chips in older houses or water from pipes that had lead in them. John's balcony pidgies tend to stick close to home and have good supply of clean water. They tend to stick to a small territory of rooftops and his balcony.

I also suspect that if it was lead poisoning it would not even have an appetite for peanuts. I was once feeding the swans on the (fishing) lake and although they all came forward eagerly one just turned away . I called Swan Rescue and they took it in, confirming that it was suffering from lead poisoning.



> I am very interested to see what comes up with more tests


Shi, you give our British veterinary services too much credit! I don't think they are very good at carrying out tests or interpreting the results (nor are our medical services). A couple of years ago our miniature schnauzer Beth stopped eating. She was 15 and I decided to go down the test route: As one vet said she had cancer I had her referred to the soft tissue specialists so that the type of cancer could be identified and she could receive treatment. She had blood tests, a laparoscopy, splenectomy, ultrasound, biopsies, the works. It cost in excess of $10,000 (the cost was shared out between a lot of us). She died before they established that what had caused her lack of appetitie was inflammatory bowel disease. There was no cancer. She probably died because of the tests, rather than in spite of them because the initial splenecomy (unnecessay as it happens) led to inflammation of the abdominal cavity.

Noel has been on probiotics and I will get ACV tomorrow. I will give her some garlic pearls tonight.

Incidentally, the other pigeon found by John on his balcony still has torticollis after several months but today he won the heart of Stephie, a beautiful hen in the same state. They had some difficulty exchanging food with all that twisting and turning , but went on to mate afterwards. Another happy ending, I hope!

Cynthia


----------



## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Cynthia,

Healing thoughts for Noel - I bet you didn't think you would be nursing a sick pigeon so soon after your brush with the hospital. 

Look after yourself please - not too many risks - the pigeons that you have and care for need their mummy to be well...... 

Tania x


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Well, there is alway the possibility that s/he ingested some small bits of metal mistaking them for grit. Anything that would have chrome on it would contain zinc and bits of copper, brass, tin or even steel could also be slowly broken down by gastric fluids, thereby imparting a toxic metal load on the bird.

Although this scenario I believe is less likely than a pathogen of some kind being being responsible for the droppings looking as they are, I don't think Maggie's thoughts on metal poisoning can't be entirely ruled out, especially if other tests trying to confirm an infection return negative.

Ron


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Always worth bearing in mind, Ron, but I guess it's a case of ruling out what is most likely given the symptoms and circumstances first, then looking at the more unusual possibilities.

If PMV symptoms really show themselves, then it is pretty likely that the bird's system will have been open to any common(ish) infection that it might otherwise have shrugged off. Something of a waiting game, and providing treatments like Treesa suggested, for now.

I'll sure be keeping a lookout for any unwell birds in my area now, just in case there is something doing the rounds.

John


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I never discount anything, but tend to work on the balance of probabilities, reviewing the balance as new evidence presents itself.

In this case, I was convinced that diabetes was the cause of this pigeon's condition. but the vet pointed out that the balance of probabilities was weighted towards cocci or PMV. Cocci was easy to discount by testing so the balance of probabilities shifted in favour of PMV particularly when the nervous symptoms appeared after one week (I suspect they would appear sooner in lead poisoning), the polyuria diminished . the pigeon is preening and eating (albeit selectively) and the typical PMV poops and torticollis symptoms appeared.

DEFRA monitors the cause of death in wild birds including feral pigeons and there have been outbreaks of PMV in feral flocks in the UK, but the only reported cases of lead poisoning have been among geese and ducks that have had access to a shooting range ( and therefore lead shot) and swans.

Pigeons might pick up lead shot as grit, but it is unlikely that this would happen in the middle of Worthing.

I know that the balance of probabilities doesn't always work...after all, the doctor thought that the BOP was that my cough was caused by stress, but I think he might have reviewed this if I had told him I kept pigeons in my bedroom!

So I will continue to monitor the symptoms but at the moment they all match PMV but only a few match poisoning. But as I said, I always keep an open mind and appreciate (and listen to) any warnings that I get from this group!

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The bridge where we pick up most of the young/sick pigeons has a train track that runs parallel to the highway bridge our pigeons stay under. I have often thought the pigeons eat the grit alongside the railroad track and could pick up lead particles that may come off the train wheels/track. It is the only thing I could think of because I hope no one is deliberately leaving lead shot where they may feed.

Of course, it was simply a suggestion. The pigeons we have had with lead poisoning rarely would eat. We had to hand feed all of them initially, but some would begin to eat after a series of shots and after the lead had passed through their system.


----------



## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Sources of lead*

There are other sources of lead in cities. Lead soldering in discarded electronics and computers dumped instead of recycled, which may leach out into rainwater. Lead weights used for balancing wheel rims on cars, often scattered around the floors of garages and where tires are changed. Lead type formerly used in print-setting in publshing houses (and London was a major publishing center). (I have my name set in a piece of linotype from the mid-seventies. Hot lead with other metals such as antimony added for hardening and expanding the cast lead was set in dies, then melted and re-used after printing. There was always some scrap lead around, melted drippings. The occasional lead-cast toy soldier. Lead from gasoline/Benzin/petrol leaked onto the ground by mechanics and at car filling pumps. 

And there are other heavy metals: cadmium used in red-yellow-orange artist's pigments from improperly discarded rejected canvasses.

How much lead or heavy metal does it take to affect a bird, to effect neural damage? Probably not much. Humans with larger body mass can tolerate larger amounts before symptoms are noticeable. 

I think many of us carry small trace amounts of some heavy metals we are unaware of, and which do not appreciable affect us in the short run. There is also mercury in tooth filling amalgam.

A U.S. governemnt .pdf file on lead in waterfowl: 

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_43.pdf


Larry


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> The bridge where we pick up most of the young/sick pigeons has a train track that runs parallel to the highway bridge our pigeons stay under. I have often thought the pigeons eat the grit alongside the railroad track and could pick up lead particles that may come off the train wheels/track. It is the only thing I could think of because I hope no one is deliberately leaving lead shot where they may feed.


You are most probably right. That illustrates the importance of background knowledge whe considering what is causing specific symptoms in feral pigeons. 

I was thinking recently about the differences between racing or fancy pigeons or even pet and feral pigeons when presented to a vet...the first group will most probably have been innoculated and have been provided with a balanced diet and treated for cocci, canker and worms on a prophylaxis basis...our ferals have a very fatty diet (bread, cakes, french fries and pastry) and, of course, are vulnerable to pox and PMV as well as a host of other problems. But most of the information on diseases that we have access to relates to the first group. It may sound arrogant, I hope not, but I am convinced that as a group we have acquired more experience of feral pigeons and their ailments than most wildlife hospitals and that is because we genuinely love our ferals and want to preserve their lives.

So knowing where a pigeon feral pigeon eats, feeds and roosts is so important. If in the environment that Larry describes, then that would be information that would shift the balance of probabilities.

One example of an atypical ailment is when Helen (Nooti) found a group of pigeons that had been poisoned by anti-climb paint...not something that we would have considered or that is covered in any of the books that I have read. All except one (Oily Ollie) died, and even he hung between life and death until Helen told him to make up his mind. He chose life and joined my aviary but serves as a reminder that not everythng falls within common ailments and that the unlikely causes have to be considered.

As for Noele (I am hoping it is a she), the polyuria has diminished and she is looking very alert, thank goodness. I wil, weigh her and post a picture tomorrow.

Cynthia


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Best of luck with Noel, Cynthia. I hope s/he will continue to improve. It truly is difficult at times to get on the right track for diagnosing what is actually the matter with a bird that we receive.

I got two in that were both found at a Home Depot in Visalia CA. One was taken to Bruce L. and the other ended up with Sherry L. Neither knew the other had a pigeon from Home Depot until Sherry met up with Bruce to pick up his pigeon and bring it to me along with hers. Turns out that these two almost have to be nest mates and suffering from the same unknown malady. Both show extreme neuro symptoms, both have a cloudy film on the eyes, and Bruce felt that the youngster he had was also deaf. The jury is still out on the deafness and while the first thought was PMV, I honestly don't think that is the case. Neither Bruce nor Sherry believes that this Home Depot intentionally poisoned the birds since they have always been good to call for assistance with any type of bird in need. Still, there are certainly many, many things in a Home Depot that could be deadly or cause extreme problems with birds. So, we are just taking it a day and a time and hoping that the neuro symptoms eventually resolve. I do believe both youngsters are completely blind but both have learned how to eat and drink on their own.

Terry


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sounds pretty bad for them, poor little things! At least they are together. Nest mates seem to form a strong bond while they are young.

It is sad that such severe symptoms can have so many causes.

BTW what is the Home Depot?

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> BTW what is the Home Depot?
> Cynthia


It is a lumber and hardware (kitchens,sinks cabinets, bathroom, toilets, plumbing, electrical) supply store for people building new homes, and remodeling old homes-for the do-it-yourselfer and/or contractor.

They also have an outdoor garden dept. where you can buy landscaping plants, fertilizer, etc.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The Home Depot we shop at (and also the place where our Mr. Humphries came from) have pigeons that roost there all the time, both on the outside canopy and inside the garden area. We have noticed bags of fertilizer that have split open and pellets all around. Pigeons could easily eat this thinking it is food.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, 

Back in the proverbial old saddle again, and good timing for this one that John
has brought to you for care from his balcony. You probably remember the description that
JGregg gave of the poops smelling sweet, so I’m wondering if you noticed this characteristic?
It seems that there are varying points of view regarding ‘transient’ and ‘definitive’ Diabetes Mellitus. Although with the latter, terms like definitive and persistent are used to describe repeated tests (within 24 hours) where elevated blood glucose levels are within the range described in this first link:

http://exoticpetvet.net/

Now these link will discuss the fact that it \can be transient:

http://www.diabeteshealth.com/print,article,76.html

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170234.htm

I don’t know that this is what your bird has, but some of the things mentioned as being able to ‘throw the reading’ were diet, infections, surgery, organ malfunction, etc. I know that if one of John’s, he’s getting a good diet there, just don’t know where else the bird might be eating as well. Or not eating for that matter if there are self-feeding issues. 

If you treated for Coccidiosis prior to the fecal, then I’m sure the ‘population’ would have been knocked down some. And, must say, I’ve seen some pretty green pea soup w/canker as well. But 
it would, though, seem reasonable to think that if you know that you’ve picked up two other birds w/PMV from John’s group, that this bird could quite possibly have it as well. Time will tell on that one, look forward to your updates.

fp


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Update : PMV*

Thanks for the clarification about the Home Depot.

I had forgotten the bit about the sweet poops, fp, but there was no distinctive smell.

Noele's poops have improved, they are now formed and have the white urates on top.

The difficulty with her is that I have to have her in the cloakroom which is very small and I have to keep the door shut to stop pigeon proteins from wafting into the rest of the house. Last night I weighed her, she had put on a bit of weight. But when I put her on her brick she sort of staggered off it. She sits very still but there is the tiniest tremor in her wings, which could be interpreted as fear.

So this morning I decided to spy on her: I put some peanuts down and closed the door leaving a crack to peek throgh. She gave into temptation, took a peanut then did the "seed tossing" bit!

So in my opinion the progress of the symptoms: watery poops, PMV poops, pecking and missing, fine tremors and seed tossing all point to PMV.

I won't release her, because I saw one of the pigeons that had PMV very mildly six years ago and has shown no symptoms since suddenly turn her head upside down the other day. I think that life "out there" is hard enough without the possibility of a handicap.

Once her period of quarantine is over she will probably go in the doviary with 4 other flightless pigeons that have residual neurological damage from PMV. They could do with another hen. 

If she has no residual damage she should go in the aviary where she will be able to fly and have a nice bath.

Cynthia


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia, that's an interesting update all the way around. First and foremost,
I need to say that I hope you will put weather stripping, a door shoe and threshold, and perhaps an observation window on the entryway to that cloakroom. I would say if you intend to continue using it this way, but whether
you intend to or not, most likely there will always be a need now that you've found that you can. 

It's interesting that there was an elevation in the blood glucose levels prior to more prominent symptoms. It sounds as though you may have a PMV season
in store for you. Also sounds as though you have a very fine tuned eye, developed over time, that can 'sight' this illness in a very preliminary stage before it's full onset...your pigeons are fortunate indeed to have the both of you for advocates/protectors.

fp


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for your suggestions fp! And you are right...I suspect that the cloakroom will become my "hospital" but I will only be able to take one bird at a time because there isn't even enough room for two cages.

Most of my patients come from Joan, who feeds the wild pigeons by the green, and I have suggested that she takes her sick ones to FAITH, the animal rescue place where Carol, who used to do all pigeon rescue in this area, works, She accepts pigeon referrals from FAITH and has passed on unreleasable ones to me. 

As for spotting symptoms, according to H Vindevogel once a pigeon is infected the virus starts to multiply in "the portals to the body" (eyes nose and mouth" ), it would start to excrete the virus through the secretions of eye, nose and throat from the second day and after 5 or 6 days it could show respiratory and occular symptoms (like conjunctivitis). I have never spotted those, but he also explains that the virus that was responsible for the epidemic that was current when he carried out his tests was only slightly pneumotropic and that respiratory symptoms would go unnoticed.

The virus persists for not more than 4 weeks in the respiratory organs. In the meantime, however, it starts to multiply in the gastro-intestinal tract causing symptoms causing watery or bloody diarrhea, depending on the damage done to the intestines and the pigeon will start to shed it through droppings from the 4th day. The virus persists there for 3 weeks.

The virus can also reach the brain where it persists for 5 weeks. So the nervous signs would usually appear well after the pigeon had started to shed the virus.

Vindevogel established that after they have been ill for 6 weeks they are no longer shedding the virus.

If a pigeon displays the nervous symtoms of PMV during their isolation period, then in a way it is a relief because I know exactly what I am up against. I just wonder whether I during my spate of deaths I had pigeons with PMV that I didn't identify. 

Do you remember Torvill and Dean? When they arrived both had watery diearrhea , they were nest mates so I kept them together. Torvill's diarrhea cleared up, but poor Dean continued to have watery poops despite treatment, so I kept them both iin my bedroom for over 6 weeks. Then one night Dean started to twist his head and he died the next morning. I am wondering now whether both had PMV (we know the flock was affected) and Dean as a result of the damage done by the virus.

Incidentally, Vindevogel says that morbidity can vary between 30% and 70%. 
So I hope that it John's little flock it will be at the lower end.

Cynthia


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Not trying to overload you in advance, but if you knew w/certainty that two
birds both had PMV, would you be able to stack 2 cages?
I'm glad that Joan will have an alternate place through Carol to drop off her
sick/injured pigeons to. Especially with the possibility of more PMV birds coming in from John's flock. Six weeks is a long turn around time w/only
the cloak room available. But I know that you will be able to work some magic if need be. I'm hoping that John's flock isn't badly hit w/this.

fp


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Not trying to overload you in advance, but if you knew w/certainty that two
> birds both had PMV, would you be able to stack 2 cages?


The cage that fits into the limited floor space of the cloakroom is a finch cage with a curved roof.

But John will be taking Noele back to Worthing next weekend, and if he found another pigeon that obviously had PMV then he probably would be able to keep that one as well , as long as the managing agents were unaware.

Cynthia


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Noelle is now much- traveled, having accompanied me back to my place (186 miles) tonight.

Definitely a hen, from the disgruntled muttering when I transferred her to the carrier for her journey.

Now she's in an identical cage, settling in. In two weeks she has put on 72 grams, so she is doing OK.

John


----------



## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

John,

All the best with Noelle - she sure is a pretty girl. 

Cynthia, glad that you can still keep you hand in ( safely of course!!)

Tania x


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

She sure looks ok to me. What a beauty! John, I know Cynthia will miss her lots but you'll have a nice time with her.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi John,

What a cutie. I'm glad she did well on her journey.

I appreciate your update.

Thank you, both of you, for giving this bird an excellent quality of life and a great future.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Noelle is looking good! I'm so glad she has a home with you, John. Many thanks to you and Cynthia for saving her.

Terry


----------



## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Noelle is doing well. Great!*

Cynthia and John,

Glad to hear Noelle is doing okay.

Cynthia, in reference to your first post in this thread (which I noticed again while copying a .pdf form of it to my files because of PMV shedding times info) what is your poop book? A privately made up collection of photos, or an published (physical) book? 

I always thought it would be nice to have a collection of poop photos, with more than one photo to look at at a time. At the Chevita website, one sees only one or two photos. And one can easily spend a couple of days on this website chasing down photos under different disease search names. Can be exhausting when one is trying to eliminate a lot of possible diseases.

Don't have the money right now for expensive reference DVDs and books. Got them on a wish list, though.

About me, my health is better at the moment. Fluctuates a bit, so don't like to announce it to loudly to myself (or to others). Nature of the CF disease to be sporadic and intermittent in certain ways. Will see doctor in a few days, and maybe know more or be more confused then, as regarding infection et cetera.

Larry


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Noelle is lookin' very good and appears quite content w/her new situation in life.
Thanks John and Cynthia for helping her out, meeting her medical needs and providing a new home for her.

Glad to hear you are feeling better Larry.

fp


----------

