# Another Pigeon Possibly PMV



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Apart from the white pigeon I also had to rescue this new feral at the 'sanctuary'.

I found it lying on the floor in the outside area of the aviary. When I approached she moved away but I noticed her head was tilting to one side.

I put some seeds by her and she did manage to feed herself but then later I found her on her back and her head completely turned around.

After reading about PMV on PT I thought I'd better get her away from the other birds asap. So I brought her home too.
I have her in my airing cupboard, (well away from Tipsey), she is oustside in her cage in the shed. The white one is in a box in the bathroom. (They're taking over the house).

The PMV one is eating and drinking well if I put it in front of her, not tossing seeds over her head. She did keep falling and she'd lie with her head turned about, but just now when I checked on her she was upright. She improved a lot when she had a good drink of salt/sugar water. I have put a piece of sponge next to her and this keeps her from falling over completely now.

What else should I look for and do to help her please?

Janet


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

For now let her rest. If indeed it is PMV there is no treatment, if she suffered some head trauma, there is not much treatment for that either. Paratyphoid is another disease with similar symptoms, but ususally in that case they are much sicker and won't eat. 
After she settled in you can check her out more thoroughly and see if she has any signs of trauma or swollen joints etc. Also check them out for canker.

Reti


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks, I'll keep her in the shoe box for the time being, less area to fall over in.

Janet


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Does she appear to have any use at all of her wings?

Our woodie and dovey seemed to fall over due to lack of ability to use their wings for balance, but have not had PMV. Both roll their heads around once they have tipped over, so Cynthia replaced the woodchip with plastic wrap so they would not injure their eyes (as the dovey especially was prone to do).

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Does she appear to have any use at all of her wings?
> 
> Our woodie and dovey seemed to fall over due to lack of ability to use their wings for balance, but have not had PMV. Both roll their heads around once they have tipped over, so Cynthia replaced the woodchip with plastic wrap so they would not injure their eyes (as the dovey especially was prone to do).


Janet's Tipsey is the same. 

Janet, quarantine as for PMV then you are covered. Can you provide another photo?

That sanctuary really needs someone like you to take over. Most of us take birds *to* sanctuaries because they are often better equiped to help. You are the only person I know who has to rescue birds *from* a sanctuary.

Depite my best efforts I have 5 birds indoors now.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hello John,

When Tipsey used to fall over due to her lack of balance she too always had her head twisted to the front, but when righted she held it absolutely normally.
This bird has a strange look in her eyes and sometimes I can't get her head to normal position, then a couple of times today she has stood up in her box and her head was quite straight. I know what you mean but I do feel there is something different here.
Tomorrow I'll have her out and check on her wings and report back.

Hi Cynthia,

I'll get a picture up tomorrow, when I get her out.

All I can say thank goodness for PT. I would never have known anything was wrong with these two new birds if it wasn't for the info on here.
They just thought the white bird needed a rest before release. The deputy warden looked at me as if I was mad yesterday when I asked if I could take her home. They don't know I've taken another one aswell.  

I'm running out of rooms to keep them apart, No-one else knows about the two new patients yet!!  I'll soon be living in the shed with a house full of birds.  

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Pictures of Possible PMV Bird*

These were taken today. She isn't standing at all today.

In the first picture she is lying down. She has more strength in her right leg but isn't managing to stand at all today. Her feet do grip.
She can raise her wings a little but no flapping.

Yesterday she did manage to get out of her box on one occasion, I didn't see so don't know how she did it.

Her poops smell foul today aswell.  

If I hold her head she is able to eat, even chooses which seeds she wants, mainly goes for peanuts first and then sun flower hearts, so I assume she can see ok.
She tends to put her head right in the water and gulp, so I have to hold her just above it to stop her putting her whole beak in and drowning.
Is there anything else I can do for her at the moment to make her more comfortable as she just lies with her head twisted?

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Reti is probably the best person to advise you on this, but the smelly poops plus the inability to stand at all sounds like paratyphoid.

Pigeons with PMV tend to stand when they are stargazing, but I have read that pigeons with paratyphoid lie on the breastbone with the neck twisted.

Did I send you Baytril?

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't remember having had any PMV birds with smelly poops so I guess something more could be going on. I know Tiny had the smelliest poops when I took him in as a baby and turned out he had E.coli. My vet told me that E.coli in birds is far more common than paratyphoid and goes undiagnosed most of the time.
Either way, paratyphoid and E.coli can be treated with Baytril so guess it's time to start her/him on that.

Reti


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

No I don't have Baytril unfortunately. Is it a prescription only medication in UK, or can I get it from somewhere on the internet?

Janet


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Regarding E. coli..I found the following....Interesting!*

E-Coli In Pigeons - August 25, 2000
J. F. HIGGINS, V.M.D. 
VCA NORTHSIDE ANIMAL HOSPITAL BETHELEHEM, PA

Escherichia coli, better know as E. coli, is a bacterium that 
commonly infects our pigeons. It is considered a normal 
constituent of pigeon feces, but certain strains of E. coli 
can be severely pathogenic. Whenever we recover E. coli from 
organs other than the gastrointestinal tract (e.g. liver, spleen) 
we can deduce that E. coli is causing clinical disease.

The symptoms of an E. coli infection can mimic symptoms seen 
with other diseases (e.g. paratyphoid, PMV): weight loss, diarrhea,
dead in shell, joint abscesses, and even head tilt, etc. This 
disease can affect both young birds and old birds, and is usually 
associated with some form of stress such as racing, breeding, 
overcrowding, etc. It is often found in conjunction with 
adenovirus in young birds.

Diagnosis of E. coli infection if achieved by culture and 
sensitivity. This is best done by an expreienced person who will
usually sacrifice one or two symptomatic birds; and, in a sterile 
manner, sample suspicious organs (e.g. liver/spleen) with a 
sterile swab. The contents of the swab are then streaked on a 
culture plate allowing the bacteria to grow and be identified. 
Antibiotic discs are embedded in the culture plate allowing for 
clear identification of the best antibiotic to kill that 
particular strain of the bacteria. We often find that E. coli 
grown from a bird from Loft A can be treated Baytril, while E. 
coli grown from a bird from Loft B is resistant to Baytril.

There are not commercially available E. coli vaccines; but, 
Dr. Steve Weir, a pigeon veterinarian from Oklahoma, has had 
some success with vaccines of his own deisgn. Most of the time,
prevention involves avoiding overcrowding, minimizing stress,
optimizing nutrition, and maintaining good basic loft hygiene.

Summary:

- E. coli is a normal inhabitant of the pigeon's GI tract.
- Symptoms are the same for other diseases.
- Diagnosis cannot be made on symptoms alone.
- Appropriate antibiotic therapy should be based on culture sensitivity.
Do not believe ads that claim that certain drugs are E. coli drugs. They may not be.
- There are no commercially available vaccines.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Charis. I didn't know E Coli could mimic paratyphoid and PMV. Don't you hate it when they suggest "sacrificing" birds for a diagnosis?

Janet, if you don't have any Baytril then I can get some to you by Saturday morning.

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Janet's top picture is a dead ringer for that of a pigeon with paratyphoid in the 'flying vet' pigeon health book, including the fact of standing rather than lying down, in one case.

John


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, back on again,

That's very interesting reading. So Baytril is her best hope then.

Thank you Cynthia, I would be grateful for some Baytril if there is no other way I can get.
She is worse than yesterday definitely, and I can only get her up and get her to feed and drink by holding her head in place. I had to put her on the floor for a moment while I cleaned her box out again, ( the smell is so bad). She struggled to get up but couldn't. It looks as if she has more use in her right side than the left. She flapped the right wing and stretches her right leg, but that is all she can do.
Is there any hope that she could pull through if that is what she has? She is in a very sorry state at the moment bless her.

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Janet, can you start her on Synulox immediately? According to Helen's chart that is also effective against e-coli and it has some effect against paratyphoid. Baytril and Synulox can be given at the same time. I will post some more synulox tomorrow as well as the Baytril.

Keep her warm and make certain that she keeps hydrated.

I have not had any personal experience with e-coli or paratyphoid, but there is always a chance of recovery.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

That's brilliant, thank you for letting me know, I'll give her the same dose as 'the white one'. (Must get some names sorted).

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Update*

This morning, 'Dozey', as I've named her for now, was lying onher side in the box, I had propped her head up on a kitchen sponge/scourer, as it is nice and thick but soft. This seemed comfortable for her and kept her head in place.

I took her out to give her a drink and feed and she was on a towel on the floor by the back door. She is very floppy when I handle her as the stress makes her worse so she was just lying on the floor as I cleaned her box.
Our door has two way glass, (or is it one way?), anyway, I can see out but you can't see in. It's great as I can watch the birds feeding and they aren't spooked.
All of a sudden a Woodie appeared and Dozey saw it. I supported her on her left side while she ate and all of a sudden she picked her head up and stood quite firmly and took a couple of steps towards the door. She even started to preen herself, it was amazing.  It lasted for about half a minute and then she walked backwards and toppled. The spell was broken.  
What seeing another bird did for her was wonderful. The rest of the day she has actually been more upright in her box and turned around a few times, even feeding a little.
I had her out again just now to give her water but she gets stressed at being handled so went all floppy again, but maybe there's some hope for her.

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Now it is starting to sound more like PMV, except for the smelly poops. 

I posted a parcel to you, guaranteed for delivery tomorrow but there will have to be someone there to receive and sign for it.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

It's a good day as there will be someone around to sign for a parcel being Saturday. Thank you so much.

I've just looked in on her and as long as I don't disturb her she seems to be staying upright, although she is propped up against the side of the box. She pushes hard with her right leg when I hold her up but she holds her left leg up mostly. Would she revert to falling over with her head twisted as she does now in stressful situations, (ie; being handled), if it was PMV aswell?

I'll do a nose test on her poops later to see if they have changed at all, I keep my head turned away at the moment  

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Yes, the PMV nervous symptoms always gey worse under stress. Some pigeons go completely to pieces when you try to pick them up.

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I agree with Cynthia, it sounds like typical PMV. Also about the poops, I am thinking of coccidia. Almost all sick birds I tested had coccidia. 
Do you give the bird any probiotics? Also you can add some ACV (apple cider vinegar) in her water daily and separately give her once a day probiotics. It helps a great deal to get their intestinal tract into shape.

Reti


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Yes I'll do that Reti thanks. I have been putting salt and sugar in her water to date.
I must say there wasn't as bad a smell tonight when I cleaned her out and the poops looked better. Yesterday it was very much like diarrhoea.

I have some Appertex, would that be too much for her along with the Synulox?

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Janet, I will send you some probiotics, you will need them to repopulate the gut with "good bacteria" .

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Cynthia,

Parcel arrived safely, thanks so much.

Can you advise on dosage when you get a chance. I assume it is administered with syringe straight down the throat. (Sorry about all the questions, just nervous about doing the wrong thing).

Any thoughts on Appertex if, as Reti mentioned, there is a chance of Coccidia.

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janetm

If you can decant what you expect to use into a fresh container then it will last longer.

The Baytril 2.5 % dosage is 10 -20 mg per kg, by mouth once a day. 1ml of Baytril contains 25mg of the active ingredient. 

My rescues are usually around the 3oo gm mark, so I give them 0.2 ml once a day.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thank you Cynthia.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Update*

Hi,

Well there has been some improvement today. Her poops are looking normal, and the smell is definitely better! She has ACV in her water now. Unfortunately she still spends most of the time lying on her side with her head twisted upwards.

I have started to feed her some seeds myself aswell as she didn't seem to be taking that much. If I supported her she would go all out and eat any peanuts in the dish, no problem, bit sometimes she didn't seem to try. It's as though she has to work hard on focusing and then grab as much as she can before she loses concentration again.
I feel the more water she takes the more improvement there is for a while.

Tonight she was a real star. She seems to like me giving her water from a syringe and takes quite a lot, and she opens her beak when I put the syringe by her mouth and sips it down. I had her on the floor and supported her under her left side which has less control and she gradually put her foot down and balanced. Then if I straightened her head she kept it more or less straight and stood for quite a few minutes. She even ate two or three nuts while standing by herself for the first time.
She then tried for a drink on her own and not having much control of her neck, she managed one sip, but then her head flopped right in the cup and she fell over again. Still that was a pretty good effort seeing as she couldn't stand at all two days ago, bless her.

She's on Synulox and Baytril, can you confirm if I give her the Baytril for 7 days aswell?

I decide to call her Diva, I had called her Diver as she always dives into the water and seed dish, but that didn't seem very flattering, so she is now my Little Diva.

Janet


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

*same situation*

Hey Amyable, check out my thread called neck twisting. I felt a hard bump on the front right side of his breast. Does your bird have the same thing? Please let me know updates about your bird and if the meds are working. How does one go about getting pigeon medication anyway? Is it expensive?
Thanks


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

The Baytril can br given for 21 days. If there is Paratyphoid then they have to be treated for a longer period.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

After reading Sarahttt's latest thread, regarding her PMV bird, should I still keep Diva on the Baytril?
Her poops that were very smelly and made us think she might have Paratyphoid as opposed to PMV, have now returned to normal size and odour!

Thanks

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

HI Janet,

It is difficult to guess whether she never had a bacterial infection or whether the improvement is a result of the anyibiotics. having started down the salmonella/e-coli route I would be inclined to complete a 15 day course.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Yes I understand, it is difficult to answer seeing as we don't know for sure what is wrong. Thank you for your advice, will do then.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I realise every case will show various degrees of severity, especially as we don't know for certain what Diva is suffering from, but I feel a bit despondent today about her condition.
She seems to be doing less for herself now than when I brought her in. Initially, when I held her head in place she would pick up and eat several peanuts as soon as she saw them, and drink by herself, again only if I held her over the water. Now if I do the same she doesn't really attempt to eat other than the odd seed and mainly only drinks when I syringe some water onto the side of her beak. I do force feed her some seeds but she does get quite agitated and of course the stress of this only serves to make her neck more twisted.
She did somehow get out of her shoe box this morning, heaven knows how. I think she heard Tipsey cooing in the next room and she got excited, but mainly she can only stand for a minute at the most and spends most of her time lying with her head twisted. Is this as it should be at the moment?

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Not as it should be, but as it sometimes is. Holly has been with me since Christmas and spends all day with her head upside down, although she eats and drinks on her own.

I used to put the seed for PMV birds in a deep pot, but with the last two I found that putting it in a small baking dish made it easier for them to pick it up and impossible for them to miss the dish!

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, A few queries please:

Diva is doing slightly better, at times I find her standing propped up in her box.
She's still on Baytril and I've got some vitamin powder from the pigeon shop to add to her water, and also probiotics.
Should she have probiotics every day or just occasionally?
This probiotic powder is from the health food shop, is that the same as you would give to pigeons?

She doesn't attempt to drink on her own any more when I put her in front of the dish. She used to sip it if I dropped some at the side of her beak with syringe aswell, but she just shakes her head now. What other way can I get water into her?

She does eat a few peanuts if I get her head straight, again not as many as she did in the early days. I feel cruel putting seeds down her throat but I can't see how I can get her to eat more than peanuts otherwise. She's struggling more now when I try to feed her and I even get a wing slap, grunt and bite. I don't want to traumatise her, should I continue to feed her this way? 

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Update*

Hi,

Just an update on how Diva is doing. I have now move her from the airing cupboard where I've been keeping her to outside in the cage Tipsey had in the potting shed. It is really nice and warm when the sun shines, like today, so the move isn't too much of a shock as far as temperature goes.
She has taken very well to being out in the open and seeing life again. She is standing up and today she perched on a branch beautifully to look out of the window, so her balance is improving. Her head is slightly bent still but she does keep it upright more often now.

I weighed her when I first had her and she was 325grms, she did drop to 300 but is now 350. I haven't force fed her for about a week as she got so stressed by it. She does pick up seeds, misses some aswell, but I'm glad to see she doesn't just go for peanuts alone now. I do syringe her some water a few times a day to make sure she has some but I think I saw her at her water bowl at one time today, so hopefully she is doing that for herself aswell now.

She is much bolder too, I now get grunted at, bitten and wing slapped, I never thought I'd be pleased to see that. She/he even cooed once today to warn me to get out of her cage. ( She could be a male yet, I really don't know).

Also I saw her trying to fly in the cage when I watched her through my binoculars from the house, ( if I go too close and she sees me, she stops whatever she's doing, so that's the only way I know what she's up to out there, in case anyone thinks I'm strange!).

The only thing I noticed today were her poops seemed very watery with just a string of green in. I'll check again tomorrow as up to now they had been quite firm.
What might that indicate if they are still watery?

I'm hopeful she's going to improve some more yet but she's definitely better than she was when she came.

Janet


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