# Woodie With Injuries In Both Shoulders



## amyable

This poor Woodie has got a very deep gouge out of his shoulder. The bit that was gouged out was still loosly attached by a piece of tissue. It was a big hard lump of dried blood and tissue so I've bathed it gently to see if any would come away. Some of it softened and a part of it that came loose had a piece of bone in it, so I don't see much hope of a good recovery for the wing.
There is still another piece of bone that is attached to him by a thin thread of skin or tissue and I wondered if I should cut it off or let it heal with that in place.
I can see the rough edge of the bone in his shoulder, but I assume this can't knit together with this loose piece now. I don't know how old this wound is, but it is very red and bloody.

It can't be sutured as there is no loose skin to pull together, so should I just treat it and wait for the skin to harden over?

I only have Baytril available to give him so I gave him a dose and cleaned it as best I can, put a dressing on and strapped it up.

The other shoulder has a surface wound.









I haven't taken it to the vets as I know what they would say. My first thought when I saw him was just to bring him home to be comfortable, it looked so bad, but he has a lot of fight in him and is being a real sweetheart lying on my lap while I bathe it so I want to do my best for him now.


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## Pidgey

Does the actual wing feel loose from the body, or does it just hang limply?

Pidgey


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## PigeonQueen

Hi Janet,

Would you like me to send you the Generic version of Synulox?

This poor piggie might have been attacked by a Hawk?

email me if you want me to send.

Jayne.


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## Pidgey

It has been inflamed for awhile (several days, more than likely) because of the feather loss around the wound or whatever it is.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Hi Pidgey,
Do you mean the wing or the bone piece, Sorry if I'm being thick!

(Just caught your reply). Yes loads of feathers just fell off in my hands, I didn't need to pluck them. I've removed as much of the loose ones as I can around the wound.


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## amyable

Hi Jayne,
I would have given him Synulox if I'd had some to be honest, but I used my last on the other bird, but just thought I'd better start him on something asap.
If you can spare any but I don't want you to be without in case you have an emergency.

Janet


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## Pidgey

amyable said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> Do you mean the wing or the bone piece, Sorry if I'm being thick!


Oh, you're not being thick--I completely forgot an important word (got ahead of selfmy... )! The wing... is the entire wing suspiciously loose?

Pidgey


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## amyable

Hi Pidgey, (when you're back on), sorry I fell asleep before I saw your reply last night, not good at burning the midnight oil!

I was thinking yesterday that he didn't have much control over the wing, but today I've held him with both wings free and he is flapping them and retracting them. Maybe less spring in the bad one possibly.

To try and give you a clear picture as I see it now, there is a deep cavity with a chunk of bone missing.
I also have found a hole/puncture wound on the edge of the cavity, that goes right through.
The splinter of bone is just hanging on a thread of tissue. As it isn't attached either side to bone, should I take it off do you think and let the wound fill up from inside?
( the piece of bone is visible on the photo protruding).
He's managed to get the strapping bandage off this morning aswell.

Janet


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## PigeonQueen

HI Janet, Have sent Generic version of Synulox. Just hope it arrives by tomorrow. Good luck with helping this poor piggie! Jayne


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## amyable

Hi Jayne, just caught your message, thanks so much. How the does the dosage work with this med?

Janet


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## Pidgey

Well, if it's the thing that I think I'm looking at, you can clip it off--he's not going to feel it and it's not going to do him any good left on, either.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Pidgey,

Q very much, I was just loath to take it off and find it could have a purpose, ie, filling the hole! 

Janet


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## Feefo

Hi Janet,


> How the does the dosage work with this med?


The generic form of Synulox is called Noroclav and has exactly the same ingredients. But it is much cheaper! The 50mg tablets that Jayne has sent have 40mg amoxycillin and 10mg clavulanic acid.

The dose is 125mg per kg bodyweight twice a day. 

Cynthia


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## amyable

I've had this Woodie for a good while now, and this wound will not heal over.
The problem is, as with all woodies, he goes beserk when I go near although once I've got hold of him and am bathing it, he stays very calm.

There doesn't seem to be any skin forming over the wound, and everytime he flaps his wing, it opens it up, as it's on a joint. He is very healthy and bright, but he will never fly, so I need this to close up before I can put him back in the aviary with some other Woodies to live.

I have had it immobilised but his wing flaps are so strong, he always gets it free. I've tried all ways to keep it bandaged, with the same outcome. So I decided to just leave it, as it would be in the wild, to see what it would do, but by evening, it is bleeding again.

Is there anything I can do to encourage the skin to grow over?

Janet


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## Pidgey

Take a new picture from over the top and email me the entire thing.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Hi Pidgey,

Yes I'll get that to you. I'll probably not be able to do it until after the weekend as I'm moving my daughter up north to university, just in case you think I've not replied.

Thanks, Janet


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## Pidgey

I'm thinking that's actually the elbow, not the shoulder joint. It appears to be at the distal humerus. It's possible that we've still got an infection in there that's very tough to dislodge. You can go here and study the skeletal drawings but it's historically been difficult for most folks to "see through the feathers" on birds and visualize what's what. The drawings are only partially helpful:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Okay, drew up a quickie to attempt to show what's what:










It actually looks like it's made some progress from the picture above.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Can you go ahead and take a couple of pictures from the sides of the birds with no supports for the wings so that we can see how the wings are hanging and compare them?

Pidgey


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## amyable

Sorry Pidgey I didn't realise you were reply in PT until I logged on this morning, I was watching the emails.

I'm so sick, I've just spent ages posting a detailed reply and it's gone missing.

I'll have to try later and do it again.


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## Pidgey

Happens to many of us from time to time. Sometimes, it's best to get your post typed up, highlight it and then copy it before you hit the Reply button so that you'll have one in case that occurs. I usually try to do that with long posts out of pure terror.

Pidgey


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## amyable

It's happened to me nearly every time lately, mostly when it's a long post and I've been logged out for taking too long. I've sometimes been able to get it back by keying the 'back' button, but sadly not this time.
I've got some photos now so I'll get them on later once cooking duties are over!!


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## amyable

Right I can't remember what I put in the post that got lost so I'll start again.

To save you going back to the beginning all the time, I'll try and summarise what has happened so far.
The other wing was very swollen at the joint and I did wonder if it might have been paratyphoid, but I found two small holes which I think were punctures. I bathed it regularly and there was some discharge and it obviously hurt him for me to touch it. He had a course of Synulox and the swelling reduced and seems much better.

This wing had a deep wound as if it had a bite taken out of it. There was a small piece of what looked like a piece of bone hanging on to a piece of skin at the edge of the wound. It does show on the early picture. I cut it off as it wasn't attached either end to anything.
Looking at the wound it has a split in the centre which opens when she panics and flaps and uses the wing.








I've left it well alone for the last week to see what nature makes of it.
It is very moist and bleeds when she moves it.

These are the new pictures today from the sides.








She was moving the wing when I took this, it does sit closer to the body when she's relaxed.









Janet


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## Pidgey

I think it's going to take time, but that it'll eventually heal. It's the kind of wound or abscess that you'd like to put some ointment on and a bandaid over so that it'd stay soft and heal better. That's probably not practical though. It's like having a split knuckle or a scab on your elbow--keeps getting split and stays irritated.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Pidgey said:


> It's the kind of wound or abscess that you'd like to put some ointment on and a bandaid over so that it'd stay soft and heal better. That's probably not practical though.
> 
> Pidgey


I did keep putting on some ointment and a hydrocolloidal dressing for a couple of days, but you're right, wasn't practical, you just can't get through to these Woodies to leave well alone. Within minutes it was off. 

OK , we'll keep going as it is and see what happens. Thanks so much for giving it the once over as always.

Janet


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## amyable

Hi,

I have been keeping Woodie as quiet as I can to try and get this wound to heal up. Unfortunately when he flaps so hard it gets knocked and starts to bleed again.
It has shown some improvement over the last two weeks but I noticed two small lumps on the underside of the joint.
I have him on anti-biotics but have started him yesterday on a homeopathic remedy for abcess and swelling. This afternoon the lumps have got so big, and I don't know of this is connected to the meds or just that it is getting worse.

I read that sometimes with homeopathy problems can get worse initially but am not sure what to do about these lumps.

















Any thoughts?

Janet


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## Feefo

Totally baffled...Pidgey????

But if you bring him up here I will take him to my vet.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Janet, are the lumps hard or soft soft, like cysts? Wood pigeons are susceptible to avian tuberculosis, but I have never seen it.

The snag is that if he is infectious then he can't go in with my other birds.  The EAA would prevent me from having him indoors and it is a zoonotic disease that affects people that have a supressed immune system, which is what steroids do (supress tghe immune system, I mean)

I will do a bit of resarch.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

Some kind of bacterial-based arthritic boil. Gotta' admit that I can't remember what medications you've used so far. I'd be switching to a Clindamycin (~3 weeks) and then to a Tetracycline in turn after that. Sometimes it's very difficult to unseat a bacterial colony from spots like that ESPECIALLY if the bacteria in question has a low susceptibility to the antibiotic used. Baytril (nor any of the rest of them for that matter) doesn't get everything, nor does it go everywhere. In such cases, you usually end up having to cycle through multiple antibiotics trying to find the right one.

Pidgey


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## corvid

If you guys could get hands on the CARRADRES -clear hydrogel sheet, that is a topical wound dressing for low exudating wounds, that would be the best option to do .The dress may be left on up to 3 days. You would change it every 3 days on the beginning, as you peeling , you peeling off with the dead tissue and new healthy one is forming under it. I love that type of dressing, as is doing for you the job of forming new healthy tissue, yet you do not get any bacteria to deal with.Talking about situation , when the skin is gone, tissue is already infected and dying. Hope he was not shot.

Let us know , how stuff are going , so we all can learn from it.


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## corvid

Now i guess for me personally page 2 of any treat should have big number pulsating in red colors......


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## corvid

Can this be a feather cyst??


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## amyable

cyro51 said:


> Janet, are the lumps hard or soft soft, like cysts? Wood pigeons are susceptible to avian tuberculosis, but I have never seen it.
> 
> Cynthia


The lumps are hard, I can move them about and he doesn't seem to flinch when I touch them.

Pidgey,

He is on Noroclav/Synulox at present. He had only two days on Baytril when I first had him but changed him onto the Noroclav when I got some. This is his second dose of it.

I have had him indoors since 4th September when I got him so he has had no contact at all with any other birds. Don't know of this eliminates anything.

I have a prescription for an anti-biotic called Erythromycin that was prescribed for me last week for a possible bacterial chest infection.
It says it's a macrolide anti-biotic used in the treatment of infections caused by bacteria.
Any use?


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## amyable

corvid said:


> Can this be a feather cyst??


I don't know what a feather cyst is but I must say he has had a lot of feathers trying to grow back on this area. They don't manage to grow properly and they do bleed when they get knocked off.
How do cysts occur?

Janet


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## Feefo

Another one for Colin Walker? He would need the whole story.

I did a quick bit of reading about feather cysts and they need a vet to deal with them...one case turned out to be a blood filled tumour. Either way a heavy and possibly fatal bleed could be triggered by attempts to help it.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

amyable said:


> The lumps are hard, I can move them about and he doesn't seem to flinch when I touch them.
> 
> Pidgey,
> 
> He is on Noroclav/Synulox at present. He had only two days on Baytril when I first had him but changed him onto the Noroclav when I got some. This is his second dose of it.
> 
> I have had him indoors since 4th September when I got him so he has had no contact at all with any other birds. Don't know of this eliminates anything.
> 
> I have a prescription for an anti-biotic called Erythromycin that was prescribed for me last week for a possible bacterial chest infection.
> It says it's a macrolide anti-biotic used in the treatment of infections caused by bacteria.
> Any use?


Oral Erythromycin? Erythromycin isn't of much use in pigeons and can even be quite detrimental in the bloodstream. Most of the time when it gets used, it doesn't hurt or kill them (the birds themselves) as much specifically because it's the oral form and pigeons don't absorb it very well from the GI. That from one of my vets last week.

Since you're in the UK, you're rather more stuck with what your vets think and will prescribe unless, I guess, you can convince them otherwise. That said, it's almost an academic debate. If you can push for a course of Clindamycin (orally dosed) and then Tetracyclines later, that's what I'd try to do. Clindamycin, by the way, is an excellent antibiotic for attempting to flush bacterial colonies out of bone tissue.

Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## amyable

Hi, I've just put him to bed in his box and the swelling is bigger now than on the photo, it has come on to this degree very suddenly although the lumps appeared just under two weeks ago.
I do wonder if it is the homeopathic Apis, (bee venom), that has brought this to a head. Poor soul he has waited so long for recovery, this is a cruel blow.

I too have been reading about feather cysts amongst other things and they can be triggered by a feather that can't develope normally and is trapped within. This could be a real possibility as where his elbows have been damaged, the feathers are deformed and often don't get past being a quil, and as I said, do tend to bleed easily.

Also, another section on cysts talked about the 'vitality of an area being lowered by repeated minor injury and infection and complete healing becomes impossible.' This has been a problem area due to the constant use of the elbow. I have made repeated efforts to immobilise the wing by strapping it, but he is so strong and flappy, he just kept struggling until it came loose. I got worried he was getting too stressed by this and could do himself more harm, so left it free.

I can email the pictures to the vet here aswell if he's back from holiday but I know he wouldn't see it as worth treating as he can't fly again anyway. I just wanted him to heal up and be able to go and mix again in an aviary. He looks terrible as his plummage is very tatty at the moment, he has lost nearly all of his back feathers, but they are just starting to come back gradually.

Well, I'll see what it looks like in the morning.

Janet


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## Pidgey

Incidentally, the same vet told me an interesting thing about pigeons: we don't often see pigeons dying of hypovolemic shock because they essentially carry a 100% replacement of their total circulating blood volume in their breast muscles if they're in good health. Hypovolemic shock is the shock that occurs from a rapid and massive loss of blood volume. For all of us, the vascular system is capable of shutting down circulation to even a severed extremity (lost arm or leg in a single traumatic event) as long as the shutdown process occurs faster than the loss of blood kills. It's extremely complicated in how the body accomplishes it but suffice it to say that as animals go, pigeons are pretty much at the top of the heap protection-wise and that makes them one of the best survivors on Earth.

And, personally, I'd far rather it was them instead of cockroaches!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

amyable said:


> Hi, I've just put him to bed in his box and the swelling is bigger now than on the photo, it has come on to this degree very suddenly although the lumps appeared just under two weeks ago.
> I do wonder if it is the homeopathic Apis, (bee venom), that has brought this to a head. Poor soul he has waited so long for recovery, this is a cruel blow.
> 
> I too have been reading about feather cysts amongst other things and they can be triggered by a feather that can't develope normally and is trapped within. This could be a real possibility as where his elbows have been damaged, the feathers are deformed and often don't get past being a quil, and as I said, do tend to bleed easily.
> 
> Also, another section on cysts talked about the 'vitality of an area being lowered by repeated minor injury and infection and complete healing becomes impossible.' This has been a problem area due to the constant use of the elbow. I have made repeated efforts to immobilise the wing by strapping it, but he is so strong and flappy, he just kept struggling until it came loose. I got worried he was getting too stressed by this and could do himself more harm, so left it free.
> 
> I can email the pictures to the vet here aswell if he's back from holiday but I know he wouldn't see it as worth treating as he can't fly again anyway. I just wanted him to heal up and be able to go and mix again in an aviary. He looks terrible as his plummage is very tatty at the moment, he has lost nearly all of his back feathers, but they are just starting to come back gradually.
> 
> Well, I'll see what it looks like in the morning.
> 
> Janet


You might try lancing the boil with a very sharp needle and seeing if it's a clear fluid that comes out. I can assure you that: 1) He won't be able to feel it; and, 2) He's not going to bleed to death from it.

If it's a clear fluid, then it's a foregone conclusion that it's an infection-based arthritic process. It doesn't look dark enough to be a hematoma.

Pidgey


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## corvid

Amyable , if that would be cyst, you have to get to the vet ASAP, cause is growing enormously fast,. If ruptures , he may bleed to dead. If is bacterial thing, then visit at vet would be a nice one also, just so maybe he/she can debree some of that, if possible.


Let us know , what is happening. Nell


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## corvid

Sorry Pidgey, did not see your responce already there, as i was still typing over here.

Whatever Pidgey say..LOL

Nell


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## amyable

Pidgey said:


> pigeons are pretty much at the top of the heap protection-wise and that makes them one of the best survivors on Earth.
> 
> And, personally, I'd far rather it was them instead of cockroaches!
> 
> Pidgey


Too right, 

Thanks Pidgey for all the info. Reassuring about the bleeding aspect.
I'll try the vet by email, and won't tell him he can't fly. There's just a chance he might prescribe without seeing him. Worth a try.

Janet


Corvid, thanks too for the feather thought, it's something else to consider. Will let you know what happens.

Janet.


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## taralotti

Hi Janet

I just noticed the case with your woodie and I suppose this is the pigeon you mentioned you were going to use Apis Mel.
Reading about his history and looking at the pictures, I would not use Apis Mel, the Woodie seemed to have an open wound, which bleeds and has failed to close and heal properly for quite some time. 
It seems that his immune system is not responding very fast and I do not think the various antibiotics and chemical disinfectants are helping, as they are probably playing havoc with his natural flora of good bacteria.
I would have placed him on Arnica 200c, Hypericum 1M, Calendula 30c, 2 to 3 times daily for at least a week and adjust accordingly.
I prefer to clean wounds with diluted Hypercal solution or salt water only at the beginning.
If the healing does not progress fast enough and you suspect infection with abcess or cysts, etc, Hepar Sulph 200 or higher potency will help to dry up the process and aid rapid healing. 
I would definately give probiotics daily and a drop of echinacea for a few days.
Marchy adores his greens and I am impressed by the wisdom nature has bestowed on these creatures. Watercress, spinach, mung been sprout leaves, curly kale are of the highest nutritional value and contain vital enzymes important for every single biochemical reaction in our cells!
He will ignore every kind of seed (even his favourite organic sunflower seeds and peanuts) if he is offered greens and he will happily consume a huge handful of them, probably enough for a human salad meal!
March also had some bleeding, and lots of bruising, pulled feathers / skin, swelling when I found him, near his legs but it stopped in a couple of days. 

Apis Mel. would probably help with swelling on joints due to arthritis but if the swelling has become bigger with this remedy, it might make things worse for your woodie. I would definately STOP it! The nature of the problem indicates the above remedies in my humble opinion.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards

Maria


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## Feefo

Just a warning, Janet. I avoid sticking needles in woodies because that has been known to kill them. Helen says they get so frightened that they can have an adrenalin rush which causes a heart attack. I am not saying this will happen and Pidgey has said he won't feel it so maybe it will be OK...but this is a wood pigeon and they are fragile. 

Cynthia


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## amyable

Hi Cynthia,

Difficult one. I will see how things are in the morning.
He does stay very quiet when I've actually got him on my lap to bathe the wound. It is just the initial job of catching him that he fights. As long as he can wrap his toes around my fingers he stays still. I do sometimes give a drop of Bachs Rescue Remedy if he is flapping, then wait a while for him to calm down before attempting to do anything.

If it's bulging to the point of looking as if it will break the skin with the pressure, I may just try it, but I do understand what you're saying.

Janet


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## Pidgey

I don't think he'll feel it because of the nature of what's going on. When the pressure in one of those things builds and the local swelling ensues, it actually causes a "pressure necrosis" in the surrounding tissue. That's the reason why such a boil usually bursts--the decreasing circulation to the tissue immediately above the boil causes said tissue to virtually rot away. In the days and hours before it bursts, it gets pretty numb. Painful on the edges, but numb in the middle. That's where you'd want to lance it--right in the middle.

Besides the pressure, are those nodes relatively squishy?

Pidgey


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## chriss80

Janet, all this must be so confusing on what to do. I am keeping my fingers crossed for this poor little bird that is so lucky to have you.


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## amyable

Pidgey said:


> Besides the pressure, are those nodes relatively squishy?
> 
> Pidgey


Sorry missed that question Pidgey. They do move but the actual lumps are hard.

Janet


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## corvid

Janet how are you and the PJ today?? Did you did what Pidgey ask of you, let us know , what is going on

Nell


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## Feefo

Janet will give more details when she comes on line, just so you don't worry, she phoned me this morning to say she had used a sterilised needle to "prick" one of the lumps but it was solid.

Cynthia


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## corvid

Thank you Cynthia.


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## Feefo

> If you guys could get hands on the CARRADRES -clear hydrogel sheet, that is a topical wound dressing for low exudating wounds, that would be the best option to do .


I am certain that if we can't get that we can get something similar, Nell. Can you have a look at this site and let us know which of the dressings that they recommend most resemble it?

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html

Cynthia


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## corvid

Cynthia I went on that site, but I dont see anywhere the pic. I will make pic of it and attached to this post???

Nell


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## corvid

ok i did make an album in my account. Apparently I still dont know how to get pics from my album into the post, yet.But , if you could just go to my albums, by clicking i guess on my name , then you can view the pics. I m sorry for this inconvenience to you Cynthia, I m just not good with all that computer tech.

Nell


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## TAWhatley

corvid said:


> ok i did make an album in my account. Apparently I still dont know how to get pics from my album into the post, yet.But , if you could just go to my albums, by clicking i guess on my name , then you can view the pics. I m sorry for this inconvenience to you Cynthia, I m just not good with all that computer tech.
> 
> Nell


Here is a link to the album: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=309

Terry


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## corvid

Terry, Thank You for Your help. As always.

Nell


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## amyable

Hi, I've had trouble with my internet tonight, sorry I haven't been able to answer you before.

The swelling is even larger today. As Cynthia said, I did try and pearce the smaller lump this morning, no fluid or blood came out. It does appear to be a solid lump.

Corvid, I looked at the pictures you posted, thanks so much. The dressing seems like Hydrocolloid Dressings I have here. I did try them in the early stages but it was impossible to get them to stay on due to the position of the wound, being on a joint that he kept moving.
The original wound is actually drying up and closing in, but now these swellings are taking over and causing me great concern.
I do feel it might well be feather related, although I've no experience of feather cysts.

When I was out today he must have been flapping about as his seed dish was knocked over. As usual there were some small feathers on the floor, but when I picked him up I could see blood. He had broken two large feathers which were bleeding. I pulled them as they were hanging off. He has lots of small black stumps where feathers are trying to grow around the elbow, but don't seem to get to any length.
The skin is puffy and sore where these feathers came out. I have bathed the area with Calendula tincture and smothered it with Hyperacal to try and calm it down.

The area at the end of the elbow is more swollen now aswell and bloodied where he knocks the skin.

I sent en email to a vet and Colin Walker with pictures in the hope they can throw some light on what's causing this. So far I've had no replies, so am no wiser.

Janet


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## corvid

im sorry Janet , that is taking so long for You both guys,You and PJ as I know how long those hrs of waiting seems to be longer and longer, when You waiting.
Hopefully vet and other guy will fix that problem and you will be able to breath again.I know , that your vet could probably use blade excision to remove it, if we talking about the growth being feather cysts and hopefully those will be just benign cysts.

Just hanging there.We all waiting to see what will happen, as everybody can feel the urgency of the situation. I understand , how you feel , as I went through same roads many times before. Keeping You both in my thoughts.
Nell


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## amyable

Hi,

Just had a reply this evening from the vets.
He said it looks like a feather cyst or abcess, either way they will need lancing. He said to call him when he's in surgery on tuesday, (only works part time unfortunately). I won't be able to take him on Tuesday as I've got two appointments that day and he is such a long drive away.
Poor Woodie, I hope it can wait another day.

Corvid thanks so much for your support, I will certainly keep you up to date.

Janet


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## Feefo

Hi Janet,

Well, at least you know what you are looking at and that it can be treated...and also that it is unlikely to be infectious. Pidgey would know better than me, but if it is an abscess and a hard one, wouldn't the pus in it be inspissated? Although in this case it looks (to me) encapsulated.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

In birds, most pus starts out very thick--that's what the yellow cheesy stuff in canker actually is. Some of that picture shows an orange color under the skin indicating such debris but, curiously, it's off to the side of the actual lumps. When they get an overproduction of synovial fluid in the "capsule" (essentially the sac that keeps the joint-lubricating, or "synovial", fluid) of the joint swelling like this can occur and make the "Paratyphoid boils" that we often see. Yes, other things can cause the visible symptoms that you're seeing and other bacteria besides Salmonellae can do it, too.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Hi,

Do you think there's a possibility that this could be Paratyphoid? How does that develope? I hadn't thought of that as he has been in isolation since September 4th.
I haven't a clue, I just assumed that that was caught from contact with another infected bird.
I'm hoping the vet is right but I suppose he is in the same boat as anyone here and is only going by the pictures aswell.

I have an appointment for Tuesday morning with the vet. The bird seems ok still today bit the swelling is the same.
I completed a course of Noroclav today and will wait and see how the homeopathic meds react between now and Tuesday.


Janet


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## Feefo

Hi Janet,

I don't think that is paratyphoid, as it is the synovial fluid that causes the swelling it would be on the joint and softer.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

Couldn't tell ya'. The original pictures could show either wounds or severely burst boils from infections. I'd probably favor something other than Paratyphoid, though. Even Staphs and streps can do it.

Pidgey


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## corvid

just checking in to see how the PJ is doing.Lots of kissis for PJ , hugs for ya Janet.

Nell


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## amyable

Hi Nell,

Sorry not been around for the last two days.
Just counting down until I see the vets Tuesday.
I'm dreading the visit actually as the swellings are bigger and the original wound is under pressure from the lumps which are making it open, together with a new lump.
I'm not convinced the vet will want to do anything now.
I will beg though, he's a real fighter, very strong. Wish him luck.

Janet


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## Feefo

Hi Janet,

I know how you feel, some pigeons look so bad that you hardly dare take them to the vet because of the eutanasia aspect. But sometimes things look a lot worse than they are.

The vet can't force you to have him euthanased, I am not even certain that he can refuse treatment.

If he goes down this road, ask everything you can about what the lumps are, what the treatment would be if it was carried out, the prognosis, etc and if you conclude that the reasons for euthanasia are that the pigeon will be unreleasable, or that say that it is such a drastic step that you need to think it over and come back here to discuss it with Pidgey and Co...I know that whatever the this is is not within my field of knowledge, but remember that he has a permanent home here and that some woodies adapt to captivity very well and have quality of life even with the severest injuries as Maria and Marchy have demonstrated.

Cynthia


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## amyable

Hi Cynthia,

Thanks for those words of reassurance, I am not happy about this visit as I know that the bird cannot fly but I didn't tell him that. Could be he would not be bothered if he knew.
If there's the suggestion that he should just be put to sleep, I will bring him home first to give me some thinking time.
Colin Walker is away at present, so they said they would get back to me, so not able to get another opinion before I go tomorrow.

I have seen no change at all except for the lumps slightly enlarging daily. I have tried the homeopathy meds that were suggested for abcess swellings, ending up with Merc Sol, but still no change.
I am giving him the Arnica200 and Calendula30 that Maria recommended to get him ready should he be having these lumps lanced, that will help with the bleeding aspect.
Bless him, he still fought to get away from me this morning so he could go and sit on his perch and watch himself in the bathroom tiles. ( He thinks he's got a mate there!). Bright as a button.
I'll do my best to get him treatment.

Janet


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## Feefo

Hi Janet,

It doesn't sound as if the lumps and the wound are bothering him too much, hopefully the vet will see this.

Cynthia


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## taralotti

Hi Jannet

I hope everything goes well for your woodie tomorrow. I agree with Cynthia. We must always do our best to give them a chance of recovery. I do not think vets share the same point of view. One word of advice from my personal experience last year. Do not let the bird out of your sight even for a single second. If you can join the vet in the room would be ideal. I DO NOT TRUST them. They deceived me last year with Garcia and put him down by lying to me because I was naive to let him out of my sight for 5 minutes!! Garcia had no broken wings, bleeding or broken legs like March. He had lost his tail and had some small wound underneath his body. He had responded well for the first day under my care and was hundred of times better than March!!
I have written a lenghty complain letter to the practice and I did not receive a reply even after a year. I complainted about this case to the RCVS (Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) and basically they found nothing wrong with the practice! I would like to share with everybody, one interesting paragraph from the RCVS letter, which basically shows that the vets have the last word and not us (the cruel, inhumane carers!):

*"I would also draw your attention to the Aniaml Welfare Act 2006 which provides that failure to destroy an animal to prevent further suffering may be an offence.The duty to destroy falls most heavily on the veterinary surgeon, who has the skill and training to make the correct assessment. The veterinary surgeon in such instances acts as agent of necessity and can make a decision as to whether humane destruction is correct option or not."*
So, I do not know why Cynthia believes that the vet can not impose euthanasia but this is not what the RCVS claims!! I would love to have your legal argument, Cynthia, for future defence of these helpless beings, if I ever decide to visit any of those butchering gangsters.

Please, please, BE VIGILANT AT ALL TIMES, and make sure that he operates and does not claim that he will and put him down instead, claiming he did not make it through the operation! I was told over the phone by a local vet when I called about March that they never operate on birds as they supposely do not do well with the anaesthetics!!

I wish you and your woodie the BEST OF LUCK and may all Love and Light of the Universe assist him tomorrow.

Lots of Love to both of you

Maria, March & Family


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## amyable

Hi Maria,

I will heed your words but that paragraph really worries me. Up to now when I have seen this vet I have always been in the room to hold the bird, but I don't think it would be the same if they are likely to do a procedure on him.

This Woodie in particular is so fiesty and very hard to hold. I just hope I can get a good grip of him before I take him out of the box and so the vet will have the confidence to let me stay if I can be seen to handle him ok. The ferals are always so quiet when we've been.

If they decide to operate I will have no choice but to let them take him, but then if he doesn't make it, I will never really know.
I promise I will do my best for him.

Thanks for your best wishes,

Janet

ps. hope Marchy is coming on ok still. Love to you both too.


----------



## Feefo

> Garcia had no broken wings, bleeding or broken legs like March. He had lost his tail and had some small wound underneath his body. He had responded well for the first day under my care and was hundred of times better than March!!


Now that is strange...my veterinary surgery (I assume it was a receptionist or nursing assistant) telephoned me to say that they had been handed a pigeon with no tail feathers and wanted to know what the prognosis was before deciding whether to send him to me for rehabilitation or...and at another surgery that I went to in my early rescue days with a pigeon with wing and tail feathers missing the vet was not aware of whether they would grow back before the annual moult. It was from that experience that I learnt that it only takes six weeks for the feathers to grow back completely. I suppose there are just things that we know through practical experience that we assume better trained people must know.

John and I took an injured pigeon into a veterinary surgery (not my current vet) because it appeared to have been mawled buy something and we wanted antibiotics. The vet handed the pigeon over to a receptionist and said "Do what you always do with these". I don't think eiter of us had ever moved so fast as we did then, grabbing the pigeon back to safety. What sickens me about that particular surgery is that it is in the city centre and would be the first place people wopuld think of when they found a sick or injured bird. It was at that surgery that one vet told me that she did not believe in trying to save the life of an animal other people were trying to kill. I wonder what makes people with so little compassion choose to be vets?

Cynthia


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## amyable

The phrase that concerned me a bit that this vet has used twice before is 'you have to decide how far to go with these'.

I know with Tweet I said that I was hoping to keep her as a pet, he was quite ok with that and treated her well. His assistant who I saw with Charlie, (the feral with the wound in his chest), said that he looked well apart from the wound, so was willing 'to give him a chance'.

The difference I found with this vet as opposed to my dog's vet where they just ask you to leave the bird with them is that I have to register the bird as a pet and pay, but that I hope gives me some say in what the outcome is.

I know at my own vets I had a really hard time getting the receptionist to agree to let me register one bird as a pet so I could at least see the vet. She was like the proverbial 'doctor's receptionist', and SHE was the one who would decide if I could see the vet, not me. :eek She quite enjoyed telling me that most of the pigeons that come in are PTS automatically if injured.
That's why I won't go there with birds.

It worries me also that at the 'sanctuary' a lot of the birds that come in there are from a local vets. Last week, I think I told Cynthia this story, a sea bird was in an enclosure and the lads couldn't understand why it wasn't eating the salmon they had put in for it. I went and had a look and it was plain to see the bird was blind. If someone had taken the trouble to pick it up and just look at it's eyes.
A vet had sent it to them for rehabilitation.
I suggested they took it back to the vets, I hope they did.

Janet


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## taralotti

I have no doubt Jannet that you will do your best for your woodie. 
I understand exactly your points.

I am glad for that pigeon, Cynthia and all those that due to your dedication and persistence are still well and enjoy their life and your affection.I have the answer to your last question. It is very simple. MONEY!!
Did you know that the majority of those following veterinary surgery in the UK come from farming families? Not quite the kind of people with compassion for living beings, which they treat as commodity, objects and food.Animal blood has paid for their studies and they have no ethical reservation to spare it during their career!! In fact, I have heard that they can earn more money than doctors and that it is more difficult to enter the Veterinary College that Medical School.

March is on lower homoeopathic potencies mainly 30 now, as there are no open wounds or infections and his case is more on a chronic time scale from now on. Time will tell how much mobility he will gain. He seems alert (he was a bit quiet yesterday but I think I opened his cabin door for long hours to let light in and it was cold. The temperature dropped from 20 C to 10 C in a short time and he felt it, making him unhappy.I realized that a stable temperature is very important for a sick animal and I keep the heating on at all times, aiming to maintain at least 20 C. I gave him my liquid of probiotics, systemajuv, echinacea, minerals, vitamins and was fine a few hours later.)

I stopped Gelsemium 200 and changed to Angustura vera 30 this evening.
I will see his reaction and decide.

Feathers are growing longer nicely and he walks with a limp on the right side, the side that took the car impact.That leg looks as if pooled out of place and he struggles more with this leg.

I am busy with more carpentry in the aviary. Hopefully, I will be ready in good time for Milkwood. I hope she is doing better.

Have a nice evening!

Maria


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## corvid

these stories are so disturbing and yet so realistic unfortunatly.Janet try to be as strong as one can on the position, that you keeping the bird, no matter , what the outcome will be.Also , if You can , without them checking out, let them understand, that You do have arraignments with some kind of Wild Life sanctuary later on for the bird.I dont know , if that would be the best "story", but I know , that they are so afraid of loosing their licences, taking in a protected species from the public, that they just avoid it at any cost. The same vet and his/her assistant would not say a word , if you would have a license to care for a wild life. They have to cover their "butt ons" , forget the first humane response there should be - try to save a life.
Best wishes for You both. Nell


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## amyable

Hi,

Just got back from the vets, with Woodie aswell I'm pleased to say.

Right, where do I start. The vet drew a sharp intake of breath and said, 'that will be hard to fix'. (Heart in my boots).

Then we talked about options. He says he's probably got Osteomyelitis in the bone area around the original wound as the joint is very solid.
The Noroclav wouldn't have touched it, as Pidgey predicted.

The swellings underneath are possibly feather cysts or abcess. He was very undecided as to what to do for a while, was tempted to give him some gas and see what was in the lump and really wanted to see what was in there. 

He then decided not to for now as there is a major blood supply in that area and was worried he might cause a major bleed. If that happened he would have to put him to sleep. I did say that he would have a permanent home if disabled, so he was happy not to PTS and erred on the side of caution.
I told him I had tried to pearce one lump with a needle and he said it wouldn't have produced anything as it would be like an onion in substance where you would have to peel away a layer at a time, so a needle wouldn't be able to extract anything.

What really needs to happen for him to live happily is for the wound to dry up and heal over. This just isn't happening because of the flapping he does whenever I have to handle him. It's a vicious circle as I have to go in and clean him and change food and water.
If we can get that to dry up then he should be ok to live a happy aviary life.

The swellings he wants to leave alone aswell to see what they do. If they continue to grow they could rupture, so then the only option is to remove the wing.
He said that amputation would be an answer to all of this but as he is a young bird and has good use in the wing at present, he wants to leave it in place if at all possible.

So it's a wait and see job. If he would stay quiet and calm, there is a chance he could heal that wound. (Tell that to a Woodie!!). 

Janet


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## corvid

Janet and Woodie Im glad You guys are back whole and alive - both...LOL

I guess in this situation you both deserved a little TLC, so here it is:

LOVA and hugs. Nell


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## Feefo

Hi Janet,

I am only just back, I had to try to catch the last of the light to walk the dogs as I had to take a white dove to the sanctuary. It had been rescued a few days ago and the rescuers felt it wanted to be with its mates so they went to release it, only to find out that it didn't have the strenghth to fly..its keel bone was razor sharp and it had no muscles...hallswood said it is only a baby.

It was such a depressing visit, they are a wildlife sanctuary but "because of the recession" people are dumping kittens on them, 4 tiny unweaned ones were placed in a box outside their gate in the pouring rain where they remained undiscovered for about 4 hours (they reckon). Two died. And there were other cats and kittens dumped and handed in for different reasons. I have decided to adopt one of their kittens as a companion for Kit Kit, hope to have one from them in two weeks.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

Can you get him to prescribe some Clindamycin? I'd go with a rather long course.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Hi Cynthia,

This is so tragic when the animals suffer through the greed and selfishness of some humans. The credit crunch is all about that. I saw a report on tv recently and I know you highlighted it in a thread, that people will not be able to look after their pets when money gets tight, thus putting sanctuaries under pressure. The annoying thing is there are places like the PDSA for folks who can't afford vets fees and they would at least help with getting cats neutered and spayed, there is no need for there to be unwanted kittens. Poor little souls, it's great you can give at least one a good home. ( Kit Kat beware, you may have met your match!).

I hope the little dove makes it too. Sorry you had a bad day.

Janet

Nell, thanks for that note and the TLC, much appreciated.


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## amyable

Pidgey said:


> Can you get him to prescribe some Clindamycin? I'd go with a rather long course.
> 
> Pidgey


I meant to take the name of the meds with me that you had mentioned and forgot. I'll email him and ask.
I thought it a bit strange he didn't prescribe anything.

Janet


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## Pidgey

It's tough to flush out osteomyelitis, which is one of Clindamycin's specialties.

By the way, it often takes weeks to months to actually start seeing the effects of having successfully done that. I have a bird that had an enlarged elbow joint that I treated that way. After about a year now, the joint has finally remodeled itself back to its original size and function. The bird regained the ability to fly to a very limited degree in a month but it was a very long journey after that.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Pidgey said:


> It's tough to flush out osteomyelitis, which is one of Clindamycin's specialties.
> 
> By the way, it often takes weeks to months to actually start seeing the effects of having successfully done that. I have a bird that had an enlarged elbow joint that I treated that way. After about a year now, the joint has finally remodeled itself back to its original size and function. The bird regained the ability to fly to a very limited degree in a month but it was a very long journey after that.
> 
> Pidgey


Good grief, that was a long time, did you know it would take that long, or even expect it to remodel itself?
I'd like to try to get that med if possible in that case. I had thought that amputation was the best option for him when I came away just so he could get on with his life. He lost a piece of bone from the centre of the joint, so can't regain his flight anyway.
His other elbow has healed over as we want this one to but that wasn't half as badly damaged, but he hasn't got full movement in that one either.

I just can't imagine what will happen to these lumps if not lanced. Would a cyst or abcess ever reduce on it's own do you know?

Would Baytril have any effect on these?

Janet


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## amyable

PS Pidgey,

I'm just putting together an email to the vet.
Can you remember how long you gave the Clindamycin for?

Janet


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## taralotti

Hi Jannet

I am so happy you are both well and back from the vets' death camp.
To be fair he seemed reasonable and willing to allow nature to continue the healing process, which is the best approach in my opinion. 
I would not agree that easily on amputation. I know that even when limbs have been severely affected from gangrene (in human cases) and all conventional medicine advised on urgent amputation, Ann Wigmore, was able to save numerous legs and arms (including her own legs!) by administering wheat grass juice and bathing the limbs with the same juice only in a few weeks! 
I do not say this is the answer for your woodie but just demonstrating my point.

If only you had a bit more time available and tried to build your relationship with your woodie. Perhaps if you could approach very slowly and make him accept you sitting next to him for longer periods, talking, moving your body and hand closer until you can finally touch him without flapping of the wings. Try to have in your mind the picture of him sitting still and do not allow yourself to think he is going to panic and fly away.
Project your thoughts before you approach him.
Today I even managed to convince March to stay calm on the side of the small cabin, while I removed his wooden box, placed a new one, changed his pillow, blanket, nest, decorations, everything!
He only flapped his wings when I tried to move him in the new box while he was sitting on the top of the pillow-nest, which he did not like.
I calmed him down quickly. The funny thing was his disapproval when he moved in the new box and looked around for his nice ivy, tree decorations, which I had not put in yet! 
He was very happy when I cut and placed lots of new branches around him and allowed me to do so without any protesting, staying still and checking each little branch every time! 

Is he eating any greens? I think they will definately offer him the necessary enzymes, minerals, vitamins, phytonutrients that he needs to fight permanently any infection as medication can only mess up the immune system and natural flora, creating new problems sooner or later.
I was surprised but pleased this vet did not prescribe any more harsh antibiotics for your woodie. (He scored another point just on this).

In George Macleod's book (for cats) there is a section for Osteomyelitis
Hepar Sulph 30c is recommended for acute form with severe pain, 3 times daily for 7 days.
Ruta Grav 6c 3 times daily for 10 days.
For chronic form where sinuses have formed, Silicia 200c is recommended twice weekly for 6 weeks.
(I would think this is a remedy worth trying for the next 6 weeks).
There are some other suggestions, you can give me a call if you want to talk about it.

I hope all goes well for him and I am sure as always you will do your best.
Have a good rest.

Lots of Love from all 

Maria


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## amyable

Hi Maria,

I was relieved the vet was so sympathetic towards Woodie.

I was going to ask you if you had any suggestions for remedies, so thanks for that. I wanted to try and research some tonight but have had such a bad head all day, so haven't done so yet.

I have the Hepar Sulph 30, but only Rhuta Grav 30, not 6, is that still ok, I'm still not that sure about the strength differences.
I've been giving Rhuta Grav to my dog and the other Woodie with no use of it's wings.
I will have to order some of the Silicia 200 as I don't seem to be able to get that strength from the shops.
I will talk to you about any other options perhaps tomorrow, thanks.

You are quite right about building up the trust with Woodie, I just don't seem to have the time to just sit down for any decent period which I can see is needed. I always approach him side ways on, never giving him eye contact as I approach, which is fine. You can see him tense up but he stays still. He only flaps at the point I move my hands to actually pick him up.
I sat and 'talked' to him today, and he listened intently, but fixed his eye firmly on me as I moved again. I will certainly try your advice though to see if if we can improve as if I'm to give him meds I have to hold him.
The vet did say that if it means he won't flap, then to leave the wound without bathing and see what it does.
I may have to make the decision to leave him well alone for the sake of the wound healing, it's a difficult one to call.

Marchy sounds very spoilt now, he likes his accomodation as you designed it, and I can picture him watching you approvingly, as you decorated his new box. 

I still have not seen them eat any greens, of course they won't do anything if I watch but I still keep putting it down in hope.

Thanks for the message Maria, take care,

Janet


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## Feefo

> it's great you can give at least one a good home. ( Kit Kat beware, you may have met your match!).


Well, according to Defra I am doing the wrong thing by having another cat, they are solitary creatures. Yeah, like DEFRA know.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7708411.stm

The sanctuary has loads of cats wandering about as they keep the "fluey ones", and they seem to enjoy each others company, and the dogs too. We had an adult tomcat and were given a male kitten...a cat person told us the older cat would kill the kitten...they absolutely loved each other and slept in each others..arms? legs? paws? all their lives.

Interesting about the separate litter trays though. I provide separate ones for Kit Kit and Mel, and they use either.

Cynthia


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## amyable

Too right Cynthia, they all have their own personalities and you can't say one will not get along with another of the same sex etc as a definite rule. I was told not to have two male dogs. My older one dotes on the smaller one more like a mother, washes him and they sit cuddled up to each other all the time.

When I had two cats they too used each others trays.

Tell Maria you can only have one cat, she has seven! They sort things out for themselves.

Janet


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## chriss80

Hi Janet, I am sorry to hear woody is misbehaving, one idea that could work would be to sit near him or her quiet with seeds in your hand, good seeds that he would love to eat and hope after a while he can’t resist the temptation and eats out of you hand. This way perhaps woody won’t be so stressed next time you approach.


I have Norman now that got attacked by the haw but escaped easy, and he is one hell of a rebel. At least Specky ( the one with the inured food by the hawk) instead of going mental in the cage when I open the door she tries to squeeze past my hands and that make it one easy cornered pigeon to catch. I guess each bird has its own way. 

One method that works in catching a bird without it struggling I found is as fallow: open the door to the cage, position yourself with the hands in a way that would aim straight at the bird close enough to the bird not to start panicking. don’t move for 10 seconds. the bird will not know what you are up to and will not move either and then bang grab the bird at a lightning speed- in this case the bird won’t have time to react and or flapping/ panic and then get a nice catch of the whole pigeon, I found this a good method however I would really not apply this method to a bird that has any injuries. However a bird that struggles and has injuries is just as bad. I guess you just have to get the right method for the right bird.

Hope this helps


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## Pidgey

amyable said:


> PS Pidgey,
> 
> I'm just putting together an email to the vet.
> Can you remember how long you gave the Clindamycin for?
> 
> Janet


They gave me a standard bottle that had so much in it. I just used it all and it lasted for about three weeks. It would be very unlikely that you'd have the same packaging in your country, but I suppose it could happen. Given the signs that this bird's got a pretty nasty infection, I'd tend to go the distance on the treatments.

That'd be 100 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of body weight per day, dosed once per day, by the way.

Pidgey


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## amyable

Hi,

Woodie is still showing no signs of improvement in fact the lumps are slightly bigger. Worryingly, the elbow on the other wing is starting to swell. Not the lump type of swelling but the joint area.
I assume this is the osteomylelitis. Does it spread to other areas like that?

I never got a reply from the vet with regard to giving him the Clindamycin.

Janet


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## Pidgey

I usually have to force that issue with my vets. They just give me the stuff when I specifically ask for it but they don't typically ever think to prescribe it on their own. Your relationship with your own vet will be unique as all people are different so only you will know if you can push a little to see if that might work. Some vets (doctors, engineers, etc.) are a little adverse to hearing, "I have a friend... ".

Pidgey


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## amyable

Pidgey said:


> I usually have to force that issue with my vets. They just give me the stuff when I specifically ask for it but they don't typically ever think to prescribe it on their own. Your relationship with your own vet will be unique as all people are different so only you will know if you can push a little to see if that might work. Some vets (doctors, engineers, etc.) are a little adverse to hearing, "I have a friend... ".



Yes this is the problem, I have only seen him twice before and I know he has his limits as to how far to go with wild birds. He was great when he saw this one and didn't charge me, but.. he was probably humouring this 'dear old pigeon lover', different thing when I come back and ask for meds I've heard might help! It would have been easier if he had just said no. As I haven't had any reply I do wonder if he has seen the email as it's up to the staff to send them on to him as he moves about.
Will have to think of a question I need to ask him and get to speak to him directly and bring it up again.
I had a reply from Colin Walker today as I'd sent him the pictures for his comments.
Not able to tell much from pictures. This was only about the lumps though, I didn't send the pictures of the elbow. He didn't think it was necessarily a feather cyst or arthritus, but more like infected scar tissue, but said it needed investigative surgery to know for sure.
Feel a bit limited now as to where to go from here. I am trying some homeopathy that Taralotti recommended.

Janet


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## amyable

Hi,

I just thought I'd write an update regarding the lumps.

After the vet had decided against lancing the lumps, I had no idea what to do for the poor bird as they were getting larger and must have been very uncomfortable.
Maria, Taralotti, sent me some Vitalzym capsules to try. They are systemic enzymes and are designed to encourage the body to heal itself.

Well I started the treatment, not really knowing what to expect and almost immediately noticed a difference in the appearance of the wounds. He has had no feathers on his back, or any signs of any starting to grow for a couple of months. He has now got some new feathers showing.
The wound that has never healed in his joint is now much drier and not so prone to bleeding, so I hope this will now have a chance to heal.

The most surprising change happened two days ago. The skin around the smaller lump had split and had bled a little but I could see inside the hole and it was like a cream coloured cyst.
I was bathing it one evening and I noticed the scab had come away a bit and so I lifted slightly with my nail and saw it was loose and the whole lump came away from inside the wound.

The lump as they were before.









The cyst like lump that came away.









This happened the night before I was driving down to Maria's to take the two Woodies to live with her and her Woodie, March.
They are now living with her and she is hoping that with continued use of the enzyme treatment, the larger lump will eventually come away at some time of it's own accord.
I could really see a marked change once I had started giving him the enzymes and I would be interested to ask the vet at some time what, if anything he would have expected to happen to these lumps by leaving them alone.
I'm quite sure this treatment helped.

I'm sure there must be other problems that would respond well to the use of these in future and I was wondering if anyone else had ever used them on animals.

My dog has had a very invasive operation today and I am going to start him on a course of Vitalzym in the hope it will aid his recovery.

I thought this might have been of interest.

Janet


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## chriss80

Hi Janet, I hope your dog recovers fast and well. I do feel for the poor bird, I do hope it gets better and enjoy its life after all this efforts as the woody would deserve.


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## TAWhatley

Hi Janet,

Thank you for the post and the pictures .. very interesting. I hope you are Maria are really onto something here with the Vitalzym. I'm not sure what that "lump" is. Hopefully other members will be able to provide you with some information.

I sorry your dog had to have such a serious surgery and hope he will make a full and quick recovery.

Terry


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## amyable

Thank you Christina and Terry for your good wishes for my dog.
I am hoping they are going to let me collect him later this afternoon.

As far as the Woodie goes, the vet wasn't sure what had caused the lumps. I remember Corvid first mentioned it might be a feather cyst, and the vet did say that was a possibility, but wasn't sure. There was some bleeding when it came out and it changed from cream to slightly reddish after it came away, but all in all it has been a bit of a mystery.

Obviously Maria is now taking over the care and as she isn't happy with administering the enzymes via the syringe as I did, she is trying to find another way he will accept taking them. She is keeping me updated as to his condition, and already today has got him to accept drinking from a dropper, but as the enzymes have a very strong taste and smell, he may have learn to take them disguised in the food. I'm sure she'll find a way.

Well he is now called Iraklis and my other Woodie is now May. They have certainly fallen on their feet living in Maria's penthouse aviary with March, and March and May, have already formed a friendship. It was almost instantaneous. 

I willl certainly post any update that Maria gives me on how the other lump progresses, and as you said Terry, if anyone has any ideas as to what this might have been we would be very interested to hear.

Thanks again,

Janet


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## Pidgey

As relatively large as those pockets of bird pus are and as far as they protrude, you'd expect them to eject eventually. The biggest question will be whether or not another eventually forms in their place signifying a persistent osteomyelitis. Best of luck.

Pidgey


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## amyable

*Lump Free At Last !*

Hi, I thought I must update the progress of Iraklis, as he's now called.

Maria, (Taralotti) has been caring for him since 4th December now and has made amazing progress with him and May, the other woodie I took to her.

The second lump under his wing dropped out a couple of days ago.

The lump had started to dry up a little and seemed to shrink a few days before it came out. She said he was acting a bit differently and was a little aggitated for a couple of days and seemed off his food. Then at one point started to flap his wings and the lump fell out. 
The hole left is slightly inflamed and sore but Maria is giving him the appropriate meds and expects it to heal up over the next week. The hole left from the other lump that came out previously has healed and new feathers are covering it now. That cyst hasn't shown any signs of growing back.
She sent me some lovely photos and he looks a totally different bird now.


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## Pidgey

In the picture up above, they were actually starting to look pretty good, even with the lumps still in. Here's a mantra from Dr. Greg Harrison: "Avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." That said, those pellets had to be ejected seeing as how they couldn't be absorbed. If they'd been deeper in the body, they'd have just been left inside.

Pidgey


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