# Please Read



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I know that we get busy and sometimes don't look at the other forums on this site so for that reason I am posting the link to a current thread in the "Other Birds - Bird Emergencies" forum. I think most members at least check out the General forum.

I got into this late, after the situation had been "resolved", but I thought this was important enough to make sure everyone reads what took place. Several of our members did what they could and deserve a big thanks.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=24467


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

We Should Organize for everyone who can in the Forum to send a letter on a certain date so that they know we are a force to be reckoned (because they will receive so many letters) with and we should also contact the US Humane Society You should open a knew thread about the letters and a date to send them. Also maybe include the address. Lets try and get this horrible thing resolved before it happens again. Thank You for trying to help and being so concerned for those birds.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I know that we get busy and sometimes don't look at the other forums on this site so for that reason I am posting the link to a current thread in the "Other Birds - Bird Emergencies" forum. I think most members at least check out the General forum.
> 
> I got into this late, after the situation had been "resolved", but I thought this was important enough to make sure everyone reads what took place. Several of our members did what they could and deserve a big thanks.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=24467



Sad, frustrating, and the inflexible application of the 'rules' (?  ) boggles the mind.

As a public agency, I wonder if it would be possible to find out exactly who was responsible for making this luminous decision?

Or would such information - which would allow for accountability in the event that it was personal, arbitrary and unfounded - be considered Top Secret?  

If the Nation's security is in the hands of minds like these, the country has more than terrorism to worry about.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Maggie,

I am just now catching up with this thread. To say I am angry and disgusted with our government is a gross understatement. I weep for those poor birds who when rescued from smugglers who often use inhumane methods only to be killed for the misfortune of being in the hands of the US government.

Do we have the names of those that were spoken to? It sounds like it is a Federal law rather than a state one.

I agree with ZimZim3 that organization is needed.

I'd suggest 1. a writing/calling campaign to our senators and representatives co ordinated so that it occurs within a specified time.
2. get publicity about it in the press, on line, anywhere the information can be dispersed.
3.link with like-minded organizations eg. humane society, other bird groups this doesn't apply to just pigeons. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who do not know what is happening. I sure didn't. 

Oh boy, my blood is boiling.

Margaret


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

zimmzimm3 said:


> We Should Organize for everyone who can in the Forum to send a letter on a certain date so that they know we are a force to be reckoned (because they will receive so many letters) with and we should also contact the US Humane Society You should open a knew thread about the letters and a date to send them. Also maybe include the address. Lets try and get this horrible thing resolved before it happens again. Thank You for trying to help and being so concerned for those birds.


I plan to do that but if you want to spearhead it, I wouldn't mind. Just let me know. It does need to happen.
I have felt hallow all day and sick to my stomach. I must admit though that I think I would be feeling worse had I not tried to stop the killing. To the others of you that worked on this situation with me, I admire you so much.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Charis said:


> I plan to do that but if you want to spearhead it, I wouldn't mind. Just let me know. It does need to happen.
> I have felt hallow all day and sick to my stomach. I must admit though that I think I would be feeling worse had I not tried to stop the killing. To the others of you that worked on this situation with me, I admire you so much.


Do you know what part of the Gov. Is responsible so that i can get the address.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

I have posted a link to the posting that explains it all on 1 other poultry forum and i have applied for membership on 2 other and I will later post it on them. This would be great for any member to do. I very much encourage you to do this. Thank You to all for your help


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Boarder Patrol and Homeland Secutity. At least that is my understanding after the conversations I had with the USDA today.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Do you know where i can get some proof of this so that i may try and contact the media. Just a link to a news article or would the USDA confirm if a reporter called them. Thank You


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The birds were confiscated at the border by Border Police. I spent a lot of time yesterday asking the wrong questions and thinking all the while that there could be a resolution with the birds remaining alive. I spent needless time chasing folks at the USDA only to find out today and after the fact, I had been contacting the wrong agency. The USDA does not have a policy for euthanizing animals that have been smuggled into this country. They only have policy for how to get them into this country legally. There was nothing they could do to stop the killing.
I do have the phone number for the USDA media person although I don't know if she will be helpful. I'm happy to share it with you if you want it.The person I spoke with today was heart sick over what happened but needs to remain nameless.
Where to go from here...I think contact with the Humane Society of the United States might be the best first step. At least to find out where they stand with the policy. The nameless USDA person seemed to feel that they might have the clout to initiate changes to the policy. 
I'm still processing it all.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Ok thank you i would like that number. Also i would appreciate it if you also post the link to the thread that explains it all on other poultry and pigeon forums and keep them posted on what we plan to do and that is all i think that we can do for tonight is just get the word out the best you can i will start to tackle the problem tomorrow (hopefully).


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't know what other forums you are talking about. 
Media person for the USDA...Karen, 202-690-4178.


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

Humane Society of the United States Would I Think be The Best Place To Start They have Money And Lawyers On hand. There Will Still Need To Be People That need To Mail / Call And Really Clog Up There Phones With This To get Them To Put it Higher on there List. Sad To Say But Pigeons in Most Peoples eyes Are Not Worth The Time. And The Humane Society Will want Lots Of People Will Figth For It Plus They Like Any Big Company Want To Be In The News And Papers. So What I'm Saying Is We Need To get Alot Of People To Do This. 

You can Count Me In.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

horsesgot6 said:


> Humane Society of the United States Would I Think be The Best Place To Start They have Money And Lawyers On hand. There Will Still Need To Be People That need To Mail / Call And Really Clog Up There Phones With This To get Them To Put it Higher on there List. Sad To Say But Pigeons in Most Peoples eyes Are Not Worth The Time. And The Humane Society Will want Lots Of People Will Figth For It Plus They Like Any Big Company Want To Be In The News And Papers. So What I'm Saying Is We Need To get Alot Of People To Do This.
> 
> You can Count Me In.


Thank You Tell everyone you know post it on every poultry/pigeon forum you can find and keep them posted on when we will send and call. Thank you again for your concern.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Charis said:


> I don't know what other forums you are talking about.
> Media person for the USDA...Karen, 202-690-4178.


Any Forum you can find that is in the US on google we want as many people as possible to know so we can get as many letters and phone calls to those gov. agencies


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Unraveling this has been maddening. Thank you Sue for that information.
So your friend believes that euthanasia is not policy?


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

I think what we need to do is contact all 3 of the agencies (Homeland Security, Border Patrol, and The USDA that way we have covered everyone. I think that we need to decide a date and time for each agency and and flood them with calls and also mail letters that same day so that they get a lot of letters concerning the issue. There are media contacts at the U.S. Humane Society who we also need to contact (more than one of us) and try and get the media informed. I think the U.S. Humane Society is the only way to get the media to distribute the information because (tho very unfortunate) most people don't value the life of pigeons. Although the U.S. Humane society values all animal lives i don't think pigeons will rank high on there list unless we also have as many people as possible call them and write them letters. Something else we need to find out does the policy about euthanizing the pigeons (because they were being snuck in) apply to all animals. If so I think that Information might help catch the U.S. Humane Society's eye. Like Horsesgot6 said the U.S. Humane Society has power,money,and Lawyers so i definitely think they would be a crucial factor in getting this policy changed. I think this is possible to change but it is going to take a lot of work. And i can't stress enough how much every call and every letter is *very* important!!


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Maggie,

Thanks for bringing this thread up again. I missed this. We just don't win them all, but it reminds me of all the wonderful bunch of people that try so hard to do what is right, and voice concern for the treatment of these beautiful creatures.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

It's easy for me to pontificate from across the ocean, but something tells me that - as I suggested in an earlier thread - some local jackass at one of the agencies made a purely personal decision to put these birds down.

Getting his/her name and trying to get the story out would be a good tactic.

His/her email addy, phone number(s) etc., would be useful in sharing the love - right back its source... 

Just out of curiousity - and perhaps leading some action from my end - where exactly did they stop trying to pass the buck on this when the concerned members tried to contact the local agency? In other words, how high in the hierarchy did you get - and what was the name, job title and telephone number of the last person you spoke to?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I think it is important that whatever we do is done in a respectful manner. Anger and accusations only work against what we want to accomplish, namely changing the rules about situations like this.

I am not a good organizer but a willing helper.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I think it is important that whatever we do is done in a respectful manner. Anger and accusations only work against what we want to accomplish, namely changing the rules about situations like this.
> 
> I am not a good organizer but a willing helper.



_And I'm very respectful with jackasses._


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I think it is important that whatever we do is done in a respectful manner. Anger and accusations only work against what we want to accomplish, namely changing the rules about situations like this.
> 
> I am not a good organizer but a willing helper.


I agree if we make them angry they will be less likely to accommodate us.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Hello, My friend said that when they confiscate animals (any) they are to turn them over to the USDA. They have no authority to do anything with them, except turn them over to the USDA, becuase they have a vet, and Homeland Security doesn't.
> No, she was NOT happy about this situation, and feels the same as we do.  I just thought I'd pass that on to you all. Hope it is in some way helps the cause. Snowbird Sue


Yes. They were putdown at the USDA vet clinic but I was told the decision was not made by the USDA.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

I would like to have a volunteer to call the Humane Society (202-452-1100) and see what there view is on this. This would be very helpful and please post what they said. Thank You.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I think it is important that whatever we do is done in a respectful manner. Anger and accusations only work against what we want to accomplish, namely changing the rules about situations like this.
> 
> I am not a good organizer but a willing helper.


I absolutely agree. We don't want to come across as a bunch crackpots or crazies and most of the population already thinks of us in that way, especial those of us that care about the ferals.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

zimmzimm3 said:


> I would like to have a volunteer to call the Humane Society (202-452-1100) and see what there view is on this. This would be very helpful and please post what they said. Thank You.


I will be doing that on Monday. I am actively working on this situation and will continue to do so. I hate injustice and this situation is certainly that and more. 
Part of the problem has been the lack of media coverage. The only story I know about is the one Renee posted several days ago. Had there been more about it in the news, I think the birds may still be alive.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Charis said:


> I will be doing that on Monday. I am actively working on this situation and will continue to do so. I hate injustice and this situation is certainly that and more.
> Part of the problem has been the lack of media coverage. The only story I know about is the one Renee posted several days ago. Had there been more about it in the news, I think the birds may still be alive.


Ok Let us know what they say and if they don't seem to care much about it we will all call them and then try and get the story some media coverage and then start calling the USDA.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I think it is important that whatever we do is done in a respectful manner. Anger and accusations only work against what we want to accomplish, namely changing the rules about situations like this.


Couldn't agree more Maggie. We need to not only present the problem and raise the issues, but we also need to clearly outline viable options. Options that take into account cost, time, accomodations, etc. -- stuff the "business heads" will think up to "reasonably" object to more humane treatment.



zimmzimm3 said:


> I would like to have a volunteer to call the Humane Society (202-452-1100) and see what there view is on this. This would be very helpful and please post what they said. Thank You.


I too will be the contacting Humane Society -- as well as writting to the NJ Senator and US Representative. I was told by the USDA person that I spoke with yesterday that the only way to change the policy was to have Congress change it. I even quoted to him a paper I found online (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicatio...import6-06.pdf) dated June 2006 saying "When smuggled animals are intercepted at the ports-of-entry, CBP contacts the port veterinarian in APHIS’ Veterinary Services (VS), who will either dispose of, reexport, or quarantine the prohibited animal." He replied that likely the documentation was outdated online and that "dispose of" was the only directive their policy provided. That's why, to me, it certainly seemed like it was the USDA policy. An easy way for government agencies to skirt a sensative issue is to blame another agency that they work with by saying one overrides the other for jurisdiction -- it is confusing for the general public to figure out who trumps who, people get frustrated with the run around and the issue "goes away". I can assure you - this is one issue I won't drop -- it just affected me too much the past two days. 

And as my husband so gently pointed out - the solution needs to address all smuggled animals, not just pigeons or other birds. I'm still looking into it, but trying to structure a solution that may fit in well with policies already in place at the USDA (i.e., the way they have animals "grouped" as either poulty or pets for example).



Charis said:


> Part of the problem has been the lack of media coverage. The only story I know about is the one Renee posted several days ago. Had there been more about it in the news, I think the birds may still be alive.


I agree with you Charis - I do think media coverage would have helped, but I suspect in the end the result would have been the same. I wrote to the city desk where that first article / link was and the city editor said he did pass along my along my information to the original reporter to do a follow-up story. Haven't heard anything further. I also wrote to the NY Govenor and the city desk at the Boston Herald (ran an article on the smuggling as well). I'm continueing to "google" the story and write to any newspaper or agency that covered the original story in hopes of generating follow-up. I mean how crazy is it that news agencies like CNN are covering Brittany Spears but totally ignore stuff like this (Sorry, but that was really bugging me yesterday) ??

Thanks everyone for taking up the torch on this issue - the more voices the better the chances we will be heard 

(going off line for awhile to try to *again* upgrade my video card  )


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Could you possibly give us the link to the newspaper article that has the original story on it.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

I think a possible solution that wouldn't cost the government any money would be that whoever tried to smuggle them should have to pay to export them back to there country of origin or pay for them to be quarantined and tested in this country. I think we should just give an idea of what we want everyone to say and write and then they can add there own touch that way we seem to all have the same idea. What do you think of that idea that way we could give an idea to the government so that they may be able to fix it easier. If we make it easier for them they are likely to be more accommodating. So who do you guys think we should contact? I was thinking maybe the congressman that is for your state i also think we should all call the USDA on the same night and at the same time. And i also think we should all write letters and mail them the same day that way they will all be received within like 3 days of each other. Just so that i am clear the USDA is responsible for this.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080101/D8TT2A9G0.html

I was told the USDA is not responsible although they were held and euthanized at a USDA clinic. I am uncertain as to which government agency is responsible. There is just too much conflicting information.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Do you think we should just contact the USDA, Homeland Security, and Border Control as well as our Congressman. Is that what you think we should do?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I am unclear as to how it is best to proceed. I want to talk to the Humane Society and a few other organizations too. I am still processing. I agree with Dezi tha contacting Congressmen and Senators is a good idea...sure can't hurt.
I sure would like to read any current written policy on animal smuggling by USDA, Homeland Security/Border Control.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Charis said:


> I am unclear as to how it is best to proceed. I want to talk to the Humane Society and a few other organizations too. I am still processing. I agree with Dezi tha contacting Congressmen and Senators is a good idea...sure can't hurt.
> I sure would like to read any current written policy on animal smuggling by USDA, Homeland Security/Border Control.


I Would search for there website on google and then get there phone numbers. And Call and ask them to send you a copy of the policy it has to be public records because it is the law so i would try that and see where that leads you to if we can get all of this information by this coming week i think we should try to call and write the following week. I thought also that we could try and get an online petition going i am not sure how that works but someone might want to research that i will try but i encourage anyone who can to research it. I think that might also be a good idea.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Charis said:


> I will be doing that on Monday. I am actively working on this situation and will continue to do so. I hate injustice and this situation is certainly that and more.
> Part of the problem has been the lack of media coverage. The only story I know about is the one Renee posted several days ago. Had there been more about it in the news, I think the birds may still be alive.


We would love to know what the Humane Society had to say about the policy/incident. Thanks for calling


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Hi all - just a quick update here. Not much to tell yet - spoke to someone in the Wildlife area at the Humane Society and someone is going to call me back (may not be today - the person I was directed to might be out of the office today). So progress is slow, but coming. I believe Charis is going to try calling today too (keep in mind she's on the US west coast).

ZimmZimm -- if you have time and can search the online site of the USDA, Homeland Security/Border Control and see what you can find out about policy guidelines for smuggled animals that would be helpful.

I did get a call back from the reporter at the Boston Herald who I emailed on Friday. He was saddened by the news - asked many questions about my conversations with people, etc. Sounded like he was going to do a follow-up. Let's hope so.

On one hand I think a coordinated/timed campaign would be great - but being realistic about everyone's time and other responsibilities, I think anytime someone can send a letter to their Senator or US Representative is good 

Thanks everyone for continuing to keep this on their radar. I'll keep you posted on what I learn.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dezi...You Rock!


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Dezirrae said:


> Hi all - just a quick update here. Not much to tell yet - spoke to someone in the Wildlife area at the Humane Society and someone is going to call me back (may not be today - the person I was directed to might be out of the office today). So progress is slow, but coming. I believe Charis is going to try calling today too (keep in mind she's on the US west coast).
> 
> ZimmZimm -- if you have time and can search the online site of the USDA, Homeland Security/Border Control and see what you can find out about policy guidelines for smuggled animals that would be helpful.
> 
> ...


I will defiantly try and look i won't be tonight i but i will definitely try. Make sure to let us know what the Humane society person says when they call you back. Thanks for your help


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks ZimmZimm 

My update for today isn't very encouraging. Beth Price from the Humane Society did follow-up on my discussion with her yesterday. Both yesterday and today she was quite nice and very distressed by what happened to these birds. I'm not sure who she talked to (wouldn't reveal her source) but she did confirm what I had read in a paper I found online is the current policy: (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicatio...import6-06.pdf) dated June 2006 saying "When smuggled animals are intercepted at the ports-of-entry, CBP contacts the port veterinarian in APHIS’ Veterinary Services (VS), who will either dispose of, reexport, or quarantine the prohibited animal." 

Beth's theory is that 1) the birds tested positive for some disease (I think unlikely), or 2) some "jumped the gun" and either wasn't aware of the other options or wanted the phone call birrage to stop. Apparently ALOT of us called Albany those two days.

Now I know Charis spoke with someone in the USDA who said it was not the USDA's policy that caused these birds to be put down. I guess this is a technicality, but the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) is _part of _the USDA (see the home page www.aphis.usda.gov)

Bottom line - the policy in place did allow for flexibility and the birds met a very unfortunate and sad ending 

If anyone has ideas on anything else that can/should be done relating to this, I'm willing - but I feel we've reached a dead end with action.

On the positive side - Beth thanked me very much for bringing this to the attention of the Humane Society and said to please contact her if she can do anything in the future (Hmmmm... guess I'll be calling her tomorrow about that YouTube video  ).


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dezi,
USDA told me the birds were healthy. Could Beth find any policy from Homeland Security regarding smuggled animals? I still intend to call but haven't had time because of my schedule this week and the difference in time.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Charis said:


> Dezi,
> USDA told me the birds were healthy. Could Beth find any policy from Homeland Security regarding smuggled animals? I still intend to call but haven't had time because of my schedule this week and the difference in time.


Sorry to say Charis, but no - Beth didn't find any policy from Homeland Security. She read the 3 options the Albany office had and they matched the one's above. I did a little searching tonight and only found this link http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/about/history/aqi_history.xml that didn't help much  Still can't tell who oversees whom. Let me know what you find out.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> *Do you think we should just contact the USDA, Homeland Security, and Border Control as well as our Congressman *


I guess you could give it a shot but not sure it's going to help. I'm still amazed of all the action on the border these guys confiscate pigeons.

I know someone who smuggled a chihuahua through Mexico.

I'm all for a petition.  

ThePetitionSite.com, a free service provided by Care2.com.

Does anyone know any pigeon club members? Maybe getting those guys involved may help, the more people the better. I don't think the government agencies are going to listen until they get blasted by emails and phone calls.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Dezirrae said:


> Hi all - just a quick update here. Not much to tell yet - spoke to someone in the Wildlife area at the Humane Society and someone is going to call me back (may not be today - the person I was directed to might be out of the office today). So progress is slow, but coming. I believe Charis is going to try calling today too (keep in mind she's on the US west coast).
> 
> ZimmZimm -- if you have time and can search the online site of the USDA, Homeland Security/Border Control and see what you can find out about policy guidelines for smuggled animals that would be helpful.
> 
> ...


This Is What I found i am not sure if it is what we are looking for but read it and see what you think.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/regulations_&_policies/Notice_59_06/index.asp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's not what we are looking for. We need written policy from Homeland Security or the US Boarder Police. We already know what the USDA policy is.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Wow - fun afternoon... spent a few hours on the phone with various gov't agencies (yes, I now need motrin  ). What I got was a very curt "no" when asking Homeland Security if they had any policy at all on animals smuggled into the United States - they suggested I call Customs & Boarder Protection (CBP). So, I called CBP and spoke with a very nice operator there. He said they had the authority to seize the animals, but (and he mentioned birds specifically) the animals are then handed over to Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) (an organization under the USDA) and specifically the "Veterinarian Services" area of the APHIS. Confused yet? Heck, I was... this is as far as I got today. Left voicemails for two people that the operator of Vetr. Services transfered me to -- hopefully I will get a call back from one of them tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll snoop around the APHIS web site a bit more and see what I can find on the web.



zimmzimm3 said:


> This Is What I found i am not sure if it is what we are looking for but read it and see what you think.
> http://www.fsis.usda.gov/regulations_&_policies/Notice_59_06/index.asp


Interesting reading ZimZim... especially where it states that the Investigator and OIA Import Surveillance Liaison Officers (ISLO) MUST notify the appropriate Area Veterinarian-in-Charge (AVIC) BEFORE product destruction. Now overall this link relates to food, but it does give direction for live animals here & there. Reading further, the link / policy that it ultimately takes you to relates to destruction of food products.

I know Charis is still looking into it as well. So far at least, no one seems to be "owning up" to the policy.

I may wind up calling the Albany office back and talking to the Vet in charge there -- see if I can get a copy of the policy or at least which agency is falls under. For tonight though - all I can say is Oy (to quote Phil  )


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Dezirrae - all I can say is.....thank you and well done!


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Go get 'em girl: you rock!  

Seriously, it's great to see people actually taking action and trying to change things instead of simply lamenting how bad a particular situation is.

We nailed the YouTube jerk, and now Dezirrae has got her fangs  into this issue and won't let go  

Somewhere, in an office in some agency, there's another jerk who took the decision to terminate the life of those pigeons _personally, arbitrarily and doubtlessly outside of existing agency laws and guidelines_.

If enough of a stink can be made - or if he just feels the heat generated by _enquiring minds wanting to know_ - he may think twice about dropping the ax on confiscated animals the next time the problem arises.

Power to the Pigeon People!


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

ryannon said:


> Go get 'em girl: you rock!
> 
> Seriously, it's great to see people actually taking action and trying to change things instead of simply lamenting how bad a particular situation is.
> 
> ...


It could even be better than that. After all we are talking about gov't agencies, all ultimately answerable to the public, or at least, influenced by public opinion/scrutiny. If there is policy that addresses this issue, and they can't document that they rigorously followed it...it could cost someone their job. As it should!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dezirrae said:


> Wow - fun afternoon... spent a few hours on the phone with various gov't agencies (yes, I now need motrin  ). What I got was a very curt "no" when asking Homeland Security if they had any policy at all on animals smuggled into the United States - they suggested I call Customs & Boarder Protection (CBP). So, I called CBP and spoke with a very nice operator there. He said they had the authority to seize the animals, but (and he mentioned birds specifically) the animals are then handed over to Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) (an organization under the USDA) and specifically the "Veterinarian Services" area of the APHIS. Confused yet? Heck, I was... this is as far as I got today. Left voicemails for two people that the operator of Vetr. Services transfered me to -- hopefully I will get a call back from one of them tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll snoop around the APHIS web site a bit more and see what I can find on the web.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh Dezi...you are amazing...you rock for sure! I know how much work you are putting into this...how time consuming it all is and how frustrating it is to get the run-a-around. Were I wearing a hat...it would be off to you. xxoo


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Charis said:


> That's not what we are looking for. We need written policy from Homeland Security or the US Boarder Police. We already know what the USDA policy is.


I couldn't find any polices on the Homeland Security or the Border Patrol website so i don't think they have a policy. If someone doesn't mind would someone care to explain to me exactly what the USDA's policy is. Thank You and Good Job Dezi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

zimmzimm3 said:


> I couldn't find any polices on the Homeland Security or the Border Patrol website so i don't think they have a policy. If someone doesn't mind would someone care to explain to me exactly what the USDA's policy is. Thank You and Good Job Dezi


Dezi posted it on post number 43.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I am so impressed by the amount of work you folks have done to try and save these birds, but more importantly, the efforts you are continuing to make to ensure that we have an understanding of all these different policies and agencies involved could make a difference to many other creatures in the future. 

Knowing all too well how government agencies work and how conflicting policies can be established in the same agencies, I'm not surprised how different contacts from the same agency can give different information and truly believe it is correct.

If you can ever figure out the responsible agencies and policy citations this info could be condensed and put into a sticky and added to the resource section. That way, if someone reads about a similar situation, the work has already been done and the appropriate federal regulation citations could be made available quickly to the government office and personnel that have to make the "call".


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

This morning I had a very nice, very long, conversation with one of the staff vets (Dr. Nancy Reimer) from the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) in Maryland -- guess my name was passed on from the voicemails I left last week. She was very pleasant and empathetic. And patient -- she took the time to answer all my questions and concerns without once making me feel "rushed". She said that her agency has received many calls from various pigeon advocate groups like ours. Following is a summary of what I learned from talking with her (some is a repeat of earlier info. but I'm trying to recap everything here so bear with me if you've been following all along). 

The officers at the boarder [Customs & Boarder Protection (CBP)] did have the authority to seize the pigeons -- sad to say but ONLY because the birds were not declared. There is no quarantine period for live poultry brought over from Canada (as Pidgey noted last week) -- and pigeons are considered "live poultry" rather than "pet birds". All the idiots had to do was to DECLARE the birds and provide a health certificate from a Canadian vet and the birds would have been cleared!!! That alone just makes me stomping mad. It only would have cost those men $84 to bring them into the US legally  To read the full import rules for importing live poultry from Canada - http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/canada_bird.shtml The regulations for land transport of live poultry from Mexico is VERY different because there is a high risk of Newcastle Disease in Mexico.

After the CBP officers handed the birds over to the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) (an organization under the USDA) and specifically the "Veterinarian Services" area of the APHIS is where it got tricky (think all of us here have figured that one out ). Since there is no Quarantine period required for poultry coming in from Canada the APHIS is not required to quarantine them. Nor do they have the facilities to do so. They are not permitted to accept a retroactive certificate of health from a Canadian vet because the birds aren't IN Canada any longer. The birds may (and Charis was told they did) test healthy now, but the health certificate requires declaring a certain period of "non exposure" to communicable disease. And that brings us back around to the "not permitted to accept a retroactive certificate of health" issue. 

So I asked what about if someone else had been willing to pay for and provide quarantine facilities for the birds. She said there is a TON of regulations that must be met to be an authorized quarantine facility for the US Gov't. In fact it's so expensive to set up such a facility that the APHIS only has 3 or 4 such centers - one of which is in NY - to process all poultry coming into the US.

Next question was couldn't they have been deported back to Canada. Nope -- by that point the birds are in the US and Canada won't accept them back without a health certificate from the US. In effect, they were "birds without a country" at that point - sad to say.

As you'll see in this PDF (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicati...intable_version/fs_illegalbirdimport6-06.pdf), "When smuggled animals are intercepted at the ports-of-entry, CBP contacts the port veterinarian in APHIS’ Veterinary Services (VS), who will either dispose of, reexport, or quarantine the prohibited animal." In this case, the quarantine was not available since the space was not reserved ahead of time and reexport was not available due to Canadian law. Sooooo - this is why the only option they had left was to euthanize the birds 

She assured me over and over again that they were extemely distressed at having to euthanize the birds. I know some of you may be reading this saying "yeah right", but she truly sounded sincere and upset over the whole incident. I believe she was/is upset - after all she is a vet and I doubt anyone becomes a vet without wanting to help animals.

Anyway - back to the facts. When I asked what we could do to keep this from being the only option in the future she suggested we work toward legislation to establish reciprocal arrangements with other country's to accept re-exportation of live poultry smuggled into each other's country. This may be a little tricky since regulations are different for live poultry brought over via air instead of land. And this is why she suggested we work with someone in the Humane Society who would likely have the contacts, experience, and the staff to help spearhead the effort -- full circle to Charis' suggestion  Sooooo.... I will call Beth Price of the Humane Society back this week and see what she has to say about getting such a campaign started - with our help of course.

In the meantime, if anyone would like to start -- what you can do is write to your state senator or representative (http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml) about setting up international re-exportation reciprocal agreements for non-endangered species -- including pigeons. I was advised to be specific about non-endangered species since there are a whole different set of regulations fro endangered species. It sure won't be a quick solution - but it will be a step in the right direction.


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Didn't have time to read every post at this late hour, however, will definitely go to the the site posted by Dezirrae with regard to contacting the state reps. as well as to pray for those whom had a hand in destroying these innocent creatures including those who tried to smuggle them in the first place! When I say pray, I mean for a Holy Spirit butt kicking! Like say some nightmares about the birds yelling at them as well as St. Francis shaking his finger at them!
Being as I'm outside now in the cold wearing a hat while the canines get some running time....I'll take it off for a moment to all of you who took so much time with trying to save these guys as well as preventing this from happening again!
OK...gotta get my hat back on...it's cold out here!
Sweet Dreams, Birdie Family!


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Dezirrae,

You have done a fantastic job tracking all this down. Thank you so much for your time and persistence. I appreciate it very much. From what I understand it is one of those gov't catch 22's where there isn't any option, other than euthanasia, due to lack of quarantine facilities.

I am a lousy writer. If one of our more gifted scribes would put together a boiler plate letter outlining the situation and the legislation needed, i would be glad to send it to congressmen,senators etc. as well as try to get it out to other bird organizations encouraging them to do the same.

Margaret


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Margarret said:


> Dezirrae,
> 
> You have done a fantastic job tracking all this down. Thank you so much for your time and persistence. I appreciate it very much. From what I understand it is one of those gov't catch 22's where there isn't any option, other than euthanasia, due to lack of quarantine facilities.
> 
> ...


I think that we should put some possible solutions in the letter. I was thinking that a solution would be to charge the person who tried to smuggle the animals in all cost to quarantine and test the animal. What do you guys think of that and when we decide this i would be glad to write up a letter (for those who would send it but don't have the time to write there own) and an outline of what the letters should say that way all off our letters have the same message. I think there are a few things we need to decide on:

1.Who we are going to send it to? ex. USDA, Homeland Security, Border Patrol, Congressman

2. What are some solutions? ex. The one i mentioned plus other ones that people post

3. If we are going to call the agencys as well?

4. When we are going to send our letters/call?

I think we would be able to send the letter and call next week if we get some ideas how to fix it and decide who to send it to.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

What do you guys think?


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks for making those suggestions ZimZim  I like them -- though I must admit I haven't had time since my update to spend hardly any time online -- my Dad is was taken to the hospital yesterday and I'm also under deadline at work  So trying to balance time as best as possible. Hopefully others will weigh in with their opinions as well.

Hopefully I will have more time tomorrow to give you more coherant feedback  Thanks for sticking with it!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just called Beth Price from the Humane Society. She wasn't in so I left a message and asked her to call me back. When she does, I will share our conversation with you.
I believe that the only thing we can do for the 4 pigeons that were euthanized is to honor them by changing the policy that forced them to be put down. I don't think that calling or writing USDA or Homeland Security will do it. We need to combine our efforts with the Humane Society, if they will take it on. 
Write your individual Congress people and Senators and tell them how you feel.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Charis said:


> I just called Beth Price from the Humane Society. She wasn't in so I left a message and asked her to call me back. When she does, I will share our conversation with you.
> I believe that the only thing we can do for the 4 pigeons that were euthanized is to honor them by changing the policy that forced them to be put down. I don't think that calling or writing USDA or Homeland Security will do it. We need to combine our efforts with the Humane Society, if they will take it on.
> Write your individual Congress people and Senators and tell them how you feel.


Once We figure out what beth has to say i think we should write our congressman. I Also believe (to show that we have numbers) that we should write and call the USDA AND Homeland Security (i believe those are the ones who were blaming each other). I am going to open a new thread that will ask the people who are going to write or would at least send one that i will type up and ask them where they live to make sure we have at least 10 or 20 people in most states and if we don't, we could have some members write to the washington office of the congressman for those states.


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