# Recessive Red? (another odd red bird)



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I was looking through all the photos of my birds to see if anything was interesting enough for the new album, and I found these:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/Red/Mercury.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/Red/Mercury1.jpg
(as squeaker) http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk32/PigeonGenetics/Red/mercury00.jpg
That's Mercury, the only pigeon like that I've had. I always thought it was weird how his eye ceres were so orange, and his whole body was red. Plus he had a very pretty gray colored tail band and a few slightly darker spots on his wing shields.
I was wondering if this was considered recessive red, or if there was something else going on there? The gray tail band is what gets me.

Whatever he is, he sure was pretty. I wish I had a couple pair like him.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi Becky,

Yup, he's recessive red. The gray tail band is "bleed through" of the blue pigeon underneath that recessive red overcoat, if you will. Show quality recessive reds are usually not only recessive red, but they also have various bronzes, and any other "reddening" factors that breeders have been able to add over the years. 

As for the eye cere being that light, that's fairly common among recessive red birds, and it's also possible that he's carrying smoky as well. Smoky also lightens the ceres and you will sometimes get smoky birds that have almost waxy ceres. I'm personally beginning to believe that there are also additional factors, yet undescribed that lighten ceres.

_If you want to breed more like him - simply take one of his daughters, any color, and pair her back to him. About 50% of the young that you rear from that mating, cocks and hens both, will be recessive reds. 

You can also mate any of the brothers/sisters together and you will get about 25% of young that are recessive red._


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Thank you!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Most of the res ,red race bird Show the blue Now I have seen mulemans that do not and the mulemans also show some white So putting a good res, red muleman over a res showing the blue. Even though the muleman may show Some whit should help in a few generations clear the red to the desired chesnut color. And remember some res red birds have later in life moulted in white because of the milky facter of white Carried in some res, reds. This used to be called milky white Putting res red over another showing the blue facter really does not improve the color But just carries over the blue in the birds. Used to be a problem in modenas As when the english modenas were being imported They showed more bule But were more powerful birds Better head more bull. Improved modenas throught the late 1960s and throughthe 1970s. but color depth on res red had to be worked on to elimintate the blue.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I used to have a pair of ex-ferals, each had badly broken wings when I got them ( Car Wack incidents I was pretty sure) ...anyway, they became mates, and could manage to fly indoors well enough.

They consistantly made Babys which were 'Brick Red', through and through. Pink Beaks, Coral color Legs and Feet, all the feathers a consistant Brownish Red color, no 'Bars' or 'check' or variation.


Momma had JUST the slightest hint of a reddish cast to her primary Feathers, but only seen if the light hit them just right, otherwise, both parents were 'typical' Blue Bar ferals.


What would one call this sort of result?


P.S.


One of their Babys, an adult now, who has a Blue Bar Feral mate with White Primarys and some incidental White patches here and there, they recently had two Babys, one of which is idential to Momma - which one could call a 'Brick Red' or a sort of old Goodyear 'Red-Rubber' Red...

The other Baby/Youngster, is a medium dark Grey with no checks or Bars.

The other 'Red' ones of the original feral parent's Broods, are presently to be seen in the various feral flocks around here and in other parts of town, also likely making the occasional 'Red' Baby I am sure...


Phil
l v


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

_I used to have a pair of ex-ferals, each had badly broken wings when I got them ( Car Wack incidents I was pretty sure) ...anyway, they became mates, and could manage to fly indoors well enough.
They consistantly made Babys which were 'Brick Red', through and through. Pink Beaks, Coral color Legs and Feet, all the feathers a consistant Brownish Red color, no 'Bars' or 'check' or variation.
Momma had JUST the slightest hint of a reddish cast to her primary Feathers, but only seen if the light hit them just right, otherwise, both parents were 'typical' Blue Bar ferals.
What would one call this sort of result?_

*Personally, I'd call it damn lucky  but, what's actually happened is that you happened to get two birds that were heterozygous for recessive red. I am really surprised that you didn't get some blue bars, but it's a numbers game. With the birds you had, I'd figure the odds of recessive red babies to be 50%, but that's out of a 100 birds. You might get 5, 10, even 15 recessive red in a row, then all blue bars for a while or one blue one recessive red in a nest.

The fact that you mention mom had a slight reddish cast to the flights is indicative of heterozygous recessive red. It doesn't always show, but it does often enough that when you see it, it can be a good indicator that recessive red is there in the genotype.*

_P.S.

One of their Babys, an adult now, who has a Blue Bar Feral mate with White Primarys and some incidental White patches here and there, they recently had two Babys, one of which is idential to Momma - which one could call a 'Brick Red' or a sort of old Goodyear 'Red-Rubber' Red...

*It appears that the ferals in your area have a good dose of recessive red running around in the gene pool. Now you've got a homozgyous recessive rd parent, that's the one you reared. The blue bar feral also carries recessive red, you'll raise some pretty birds out of that mating.*

The other Baby/Youngster, is a medium dark Grey with no checks or Bars.

(*This one throws me. What do you mean medium dark gray with no check or bars? Are the parents in an individual coop? If the recessive red parent is out of your original birds were blue bars as you say, and if the mate is also a blue bar, then you should only be raising either recessive reds or blue bars out of this mating. The other possibility is that the "medium dark gray" bird is actually a barred smoky dirty and that the smoky and dirty are washing out the bars making the bird look to be more solid colored. Do you happen to have a pic of this baby?*

The other 'Red' ones of the original feral parent's Broods, are presently to be seen in the various feral flocks around here and in other parts of town, also likely making the occasional 'Red' Baby I am sure..._ 

(*That they absolutely will. If they mate to ferals that are not carrying recessive red, they will pass the mutation on to their youngsters in a heterozygous state and it can and will float in the gene pool for years, sometimes not resurfacing for decades until two ferals carrying it mate together*

Frank


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Frank, 


Thank you..!


I will see about some images of the present "Goodyear Red Rubber' color Hen, and, her pretty Blue Bar with White primaries and incidental WHite elsewhere Mate, and, their two youngsters, one who looks just like Mom, and one who is (ooops, forgive me I did make a mistake on his description previously - he is ) dark Grey Head and terminal Tail Band, medium Grey back and Wings and Tail, with two dark Bars per Wing.


( Sorry, the other day, I somehow had him confused with an all 'Grey' youngster the same age but of different parents, who has no checks, no bars but is a fairly uniform mediu dark Grey all over...please excuse me...)


The original ex-feral pair, where I mentioned the Hen's primaries having a red cast in the right light, I should have said 'Brown' cast, and it was very subtle and limited to the edges of her Primaries.


Anyway, this original pair had quite a few Babys, all of which were the sort of 'Goodyear Red Rubber' color, and all but two ( and these two, siblings, fledglings last August, these two had contracted the PPMV, and lived through it though it was a harrowing and nearly fatal situation for both of them, one of which is the present 'Mom', the other if memory serve, I gave to a kind person who had a good set up for non-releaseables since that one was 'wangley' at the time, though ay have straightened out by now, otherwise, the various four or so prior pairs of Babys all ) were released and belong to various feral flocks around here...including the feral flock I feed in my courtyard everyday, so I see various of them either outside here or when I drive to various places which other flocks can be seen grazing.


Hard to get any decent images of the youngsters ( or Mom ) in their Nest area, oweing to low light in here, but I can bring the youngsters one-at-a-time into the Shop and take their pictures there.


Anyway, I a not trying to raise Pigeons, but, I let occasional pre-release or non-releaseable Pairs have their Babys now and then...these Babys grow up and socialize in the milieu, and self release to the feral flock without skipping a beat, and they do very well...and when I had fewer Birds in the pre-release or non-releaseable areas, I used to be more generous in this matter ( not overly generous, but ore generous than now anyway..)


Thanks for helping me to understand their Genetics..!




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Similarly, I have ( figuratively, ) two ex-ferals, a mated pair, who I have no idea who they were, but, a few years ago, they flew in and built a Nest right next to my Bed.

Possibly, I had raised the Hen when she was an Orphan Baby, or, raise both of them as Orphans years ago, I dunno.

But anyway, this was not so good, as Poppa was too territorial, and everything was hassles with fights and so on with the other Pigeons in pre-release, so I had to put them out, and besides, they were healthy, robust, Birds who did not need to be in here! And it is enough hassle trying to get the recovered-releaseable ones "out".


So, they decided to built their Nest up in the ceiling in my Workshop...wherethey can fly out of doors every day when I open the big roll up Door.


Anyway, of their broods, it used to be their Babys were consistanly just like them...then, at some point, it changed, so that each time, one Baby is 70 - 90 percent 'White', and the other, any of various Blue Bar sorts of color scheme, but NOT looking just like Mom or Dad.


So, for about a year now, these two have been making Babys where each time, one is 70 - 90 percent 'White'...and the other however so, of a Blue Bar sort of color scheme, and all of these Babys in the last year, released, and are either in 'my' outdoor Flock, or are in contiguous Flocks.


Now, a couple days ago, amid the feral flock, are two young Pigeons, post fledglings, sub-adults, who are 100 percent 'White'... Pink Beaks, Pink Legs...but not Albinos far as I can tell.


I was wondering if one of the 70 - 90 percnet "White" ones of my 'ceiling' Pair, might have managed ( with whoever their mate may be, ) to have a pair of Babys who were all White?


You can see these two all White ones here - 

http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/avian-ambiance/


And actually, there is also a flash image or two, at the beginning, showing the present 'Goodyear Red Rubber' color Hen and her 'Red' Youngster and the Blue Bar sibling...too...





Phil
l v


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