# top speed



## scuba0095 (May 23, 2006)

dose anyone know the top speed homers can get to? kilos per hour?


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

I guess that depends on how fast you drive to the release point!

Sorry...bad humor there. I am getting known for such stuff.

Seriously, I believe the top speed has been somewhere around 65 MPH, not sure what that converts to in Kilometers Per Hour. I never was very good at those conversions. This is a pure guess by the way. I certainly wouldn't quote me on that.

Dan


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

_Racing Homing Pigeons have been clocked flying 92.5 mph average speed on a 400 mile race._ http://www.fbipigeons.com/PIGEON FACTS.htm

_In terms of fastest birds at level flight, racing pigeons and dunlin sandpipers can hit speeds of 110 mph.
Source: National Geographic, 9/1/2003 _ http://www.vitalstatistics.info/sub-category2.asp?cid=6&scid=1895

_A few homing pigeons have averaged 60 mph over courses of a few 
miles and as much as 55 mph for 4 hours_ http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/200-299/nb215.htm

_Fastest Bird Flying Racing Pigeon at about 100 MPH _ http://www.g-kexoticfarms.com/animalfactsoldcopy.html

You can also find lots of race results on the web and have a look at the yards per minute of the winning birds. For example,
if a winning bird flew 1200 YPM, that would be about 40.8 MPH. 1 YPM = approximately .03401 MPH .. have fun! Racing
folks .. please check my math on this ..

To convert MPH to KPH .. 1 mile per hour = 1.609344 kilometers per hour

Terry


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## scuba0095 (May 23, 2006)

omg wow 90!!! thats so fast


MY other pigeon mostly archangels and rollers have NO PROBLEM keeping up with my homers so they must be able to fly close to that also 


I think their top speed 90 is reached while doing a swoop or a dive


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## 1pigeon (Apr 5, 2006)

it depend on the wind too.Here some results.

http://www.gulfcoasthomingclub.com/search/search_detail.php?race_id=83&type_id=3

http://www.gulfcoasthomingclub.com/search/search_detail.php?race_id=73&type_id=3


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

racing homer used to be based on a flight speed of 45 miles per hour then tail winds would increase the base speed head winds reduced the speed cross winds extend the flight as homers fly alot like a plane not in a direct line but a arc left or right of the line of flight from release to the loft. Workman set a record I believe of 103 miles an hour back in the mid 1970s Tail winds are a key to the higher speeds. NOW days you have smaller lighter birds so perhaps base speed could go to 55 or more. But If you look at the rated speed of 45 for most birds then add windage you stay more true to correct flight times. That is why its important to know release weather as well as home weather on race day. Then also breed birds that can hold there speed levels longer in flight


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I agree that tail winds are often factored into flight speeds of racing pigeons that clock some of those very high speeds.

I've seen feral pigeons flying along side me while driving on the hwy doing 60mph/100kph on windless days. So based on this, I would say that true flight speeds of a racing pigeon are anywhere from 60-70mph or 100-112kph.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Folks, 

I just wanted to add that I'm really not sure whether or not the pigeons I saw on those few occasions flying along side me on the hwy were ferals or homers. I guess I really couldn't have known for sure but assumed they were ferals for some reason.

Either way, these pigeons were flying at 60mph/100kph without strong winds and what seemed to be a "comfortable" speed to them. If they were being chased by a predator, I would also assume that they could pick it up a notch or two and would achieve their top speeds in the 65-70mph range.

In


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you look at the rated speeds for doves quail geese pheasant ect. They have a known base line speed Homers were at a time rated at the 45 mile per hour speed being able to maintain a speed level over a distances refures to windage, condition, weather, I would stick to the 45 mile as a base line speed then rate the speed due to wind condition and weather. even 50 mile base speed is great As we leave land just 100 feet in the sky the wind is there much more then ground level winds The higher a bird flys the greater the windage can carry the bird This to is based on our sun Birds fly higher on less solar days whare the magnetic pull is less Also called K days Some days birds fly as low as 3 to 4 foot off the ground others so high you can not even see them. What I am saying flight speed has a base structure and breeding can add to the level for a certion distance> Faster a bird flies in resistive winds it slows over a distance to an average speed. Tail winds create less resistance faster speeds over extended distances. This has been bred for head wind birds Birds with stronger frontals can buck a resitive wind longer maintaining a longer average speed


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Robert, 

I'm sorry, but I do think you are being a little conservative in your estimates of level, windless racing pigeon speeds This has nothing to do with your extensive knowledge or experience as a pigeon fancier though.

The times that I've witnessed pigeons flying along side me on the hwy were under the following conditions:

1) they were flying in perfect weather, sunny, clear, nearly windless days.
2) they were flying (low), maybe 25 or 30 feet above the ground & no more than 100 yards away from my car.
3), they were in groups, and following a perfect line along the highway I was driving on so I was able to gage their speed fairly accurately. I was (of course) going faster than 60mph rolleyes: ), but when I spotted the pigeon groups flying along side the road, I slowed down in order to clock their speeds more precisely.

I'm also a bit of a "statistic" freak where it comes to facts and figures, lol. I have always been extremely interested in speeds of animals in particular and what they can achieve when pressed to the max.

I'll give a few examples of my observations and readings for different birds' top speeds in flight.

1) Canada Goose - 60 mph
2) Starling - 45-50 mph
3) bluejay - 25-30 mph
4) gull - 35- 40 mph
5) common crow 45-55 mph
6) canvasback (duck) - 65mph
7) great horned owl, red tailed hawk - 40-45 mph

Of course all these speeds vary with wind speed, direction, altitude, fear/necessity etc.


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## Jiggs (Apr 1, 2005)

I hope that answred scuba's question. Although your rollers will reach much higher speeds that 90 while swooping down!!

Remember it racers top AVERAGE speed that gets counted not the short bursts of decreasing altitude in the case of rollers/tumblers etc. A homer can reach double 90kmph when coming down from altitude.

Make sense?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Robert,
> 
> I'm sorry, but I do think you are being a little conservative in your estimates of level, windless racing pigeon speeds This has nothing to do with your extensive knowledge or experience as a pigeon fancier though.
> 
> ...


 That is why i based 45 miles per hour as the base line speed. Back in the 1970s racing pigeons were set a the 45 mile base line speed this was a recorded base line speed It was well written. Now days some breeds will fly some faster. And burst speeds are sprint speeds not held at long range flight. Just as you listen to your birds at beiging flight The old saying the birds that made a lot of noise gain speed had to work harder at flying. Meaning they would fly at a lesser speed. But hey as long as the birds fly fast get home and sometimes wins a race That my friend makes all the difference Race days often show speeds of less then 1760 yards a mintute even on good tail wind days. 1200 to 1400 yards is a good average on many a race


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Au National Speed Records (old Birds)*


50-100 MILES 2892.37 YPM
100-150 MILES 2960.825 YPM
150-200 MILES 2510.280 YPM
200-250 MILES 2502.391 YPM
600-650 MILES 2070.97 YPM
 I can give you more, but you will have to convert the yards per minute your self but as one can see the birds are able to reach high speeds well in excest of 45 miles per hour I do have to believe that there must have been a tail wind. .GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

george simon said:


> 50-100 MILES 2892.37 YPM = 98.6 MPH
> 100-150 MILES 2960.825 YPM = 100.9 MPH
> 150-200 MILES 2510.280 YPM = 85.6 MPH
> 200-250 MILES 2502.391 YPM = 85.3 MPH
> 600-650 MILES 2070.97 YPM = 70.6 MPH


Thanks, George .. I calculated the MPH .. pretty amazing!

Terry


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

george simon said:


> 50-100 MILES 2892.37 YPM
> 100-150 MILES 2960.825 YPM
> 150-200 MILES 2510.280 YPM
> 200-250 MILES 2502.391 YPM
> ...


Yes they can AS I said earlyer Workman sat a record in the 70s i believe 103 miles per hour. But common speeds Are often less then what You have showed I am just refuring to base line speed Not tailwind Base speed is zero enhanced be it 45 or 65 mph No pigeon could fly over 100 miles per hour without a tail wind Speed records show good speeds For a given day same race different day speed is more often less windage is the key to all speeds in a race.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

re lee said:


> No pigeon could fly over 100 miles per hour without a tail wind .


Hi Robert...I definitely agree with you about this


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Here are some other intresting records from the AU, while these are not speed records they intrersting records in there own right.
1000-1050 miles actual distance flowm1006.673miles 844.47 YPM
1400-1450 MILES actual distance flown 1427.830 miles 1251.17 YPM
2000-2050 MILES actual distance flown 2039.065 43 days
 At these distances I don't think the birds had a tail wind all the way. .GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

george simon said:


> Here are some other intresting records from the AU, while these are not speed records they intrersting records in there own right.
> 1000-1050 miles actual distance flowm1006.673miles 844.47 YPM
> 1400-1450 MILES actual distance flown 1427.830 miles 1251.17 YPM
> 2000-2050 MILES actual distance flown 2039.065 43 days
> At these distances I don't think the birds had a tail wind all the way. .GEORGE



George, it's totally amazing to me that any of these birds even made it home .. those are brutally long races and not ones that I think are common. Bless those birds who did survive and made it home.

Terry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

TAWhatley said:


> George, it's totally amazing to me that any of these birds even made it home .. those are brutally long races and not ones that I think are common. Bless those birds who did survive and made it home.
> 
> Terry


TERRY I am sorry that I didn't post the years that these events took place,and I am realy not sure that they were races. However these events took place in the late 1930s into the early 1950s In those days the old TRENTON family was flown from greater distances then we fly today .GEORGE


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Had a fun thing happen one time when I was out on my Motorcycle. 

A feral Pigeon flying faster than I was driving, slowed down and hung out about five or six feet to the side of me, keeping pace with me, I was going around 30 mph or so. He was maybe six feet up or so, somewhat higher then my eye level of course.

Anyway, this was so cool...! I kept looking at him, he'd look at me, and he was just so beautiful there flying so near and all, and after five or seven seconds or something, seemed like a LONG time, but anyway, he sped up and gained altitude and kept a-going...


I agree wirh Brad also in that I have been driving 60 ish, and seen ferals over to the side a ways who were going about the same, and they did not seem to be other than casual about it, not windy days either...so seems to me 60 mph is not unusual for ferals getting from one place to another and being comfortable about it.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Had a fun thing happen one time when I was out on my Motorcycle.
> 
> *A feral Pigeon flying faster than I was driving, slowed down and hung out about five or six feet to the side of me, keeping pace with me,* I was going around 30 mph or so. He was maybe six feet up or so, somewhat higher then my eye level of course.
> 
> ...


Hi Phil, 

That is neat!!! Maybe this was one of your past rescues or one of the squabs you raised partially to adulthood who recognized you and wanted to say hello.  

Then, attempted to see if you would eventually become airborne and fly with him. Of course the pigeon gave up, realizing that you weren't gonna, thought to himself, "I'm outta here" and then left you in the wake of his turbo wings.

Cool story though!!!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

george simon said:


> Here are some other intresting records from the AU, while these are not speed records they intrersting records in there own right.
> 1000-1050 miles actual distance flowm1006.673miles 844.47 YPM
> 1400-1450 MILES actual distance flown 1427.830 miles 1251.17 YPM
> 2000-2050 MILES actual distance flown 2039.065 43 days
> At these distances I don't think the birds had a tail wind all the way. .GEORGE


 I will not keep debating speeds Yes the old days there were the 1,000 mile races 844 yards per minute is is about 30 miles per hour . I just Know about base line speed Set speed factor rating for racing homer speeds Then we have our wind effect. Plus the other weather conditions And more nowdays the hawk chase. Speed records are just that. Normal speeds are common race speeds Good days see the over 1600 yards per minute. You find many speeds less then 1500 yards per minute on the race sheets.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Older studies on base line speeds.*



re lee said:


> That is why i based 45 miles per hour as the base line speed. Back in the 1970s racing pigeons were set a the 45 mile base line speed this was a recorded base line speed It was well written. Now days some breeds will fly some faster. And burst speeds are sprint speeds not held at long range flight. Just as you listen to your birds at beiging flight The old saying the birds that made a lot of noise gain speed had to work harder at flying. Meaning they would fly at a lesser speed. But hey as long as the birds fly fast get home and sometimes wins a race That my friend makes all the difference Race days often show speeds of less then 1760 yards a mintute even on good tail wind days. 1200 to 1400 yards is a good average on many a race


Re Lee,

I have been trying to follow backwards....to find your orginal "Base Line" speed. It is apparent to me, that the younger members are taking different sematic view of the term "Base Line", which was a mathmatical calulation which was taught in what they called the "Old School". You are forgetting that there may have also been regional differences. It is also quite possible, that this mathmatic term "baseline" is taught in various other disciplines such as accounting, which means something all together different. I sometimes use the term as "baseline breeding coefficent". 

Now getting back to your 45 mph baseline speed. My understanding which may be incorrect, was described to me by my WWII Pigeon Corp mentor. The research is somewhat dated, but it was based on speed averages, over many distances, and is just that, some piece of data. Perhaps the term today should be mean, average or some other term.

Your 45 MPH and quotes all sound correct, but it was not our data or research. Anyone please feel free to disagree. I think checking reported race speeds over thousands of races flown in let's say 1952 to 1955 in 600 mile events, will show that today's birds are not much faster.

Of course, with all kinds of data, all kinds of inferences can be made. I mean what does it really mean when after a 350 mile race, the bird is clocked and a speed is determined ? Does that number really mean how fast my bird was flying along the race course, and perhaps along side your fast sportscar ? No, not in the least, it goes back to a mathmatical calulation designed to determine a race winner. Slower birds win races all the time, it is a fact which many of your readers may be over looking.

Say a bird is clocked at 1100 yards per minute on a 100 mile race. What if this bird flew in the wrong direction for 20 miles into a 8 mph head wind until he figured out he was going the wrong way and turns and flies quickly home. How might actual speeds along the race path differ ? If this bird stopped along the way to have a cool drink, and sat there for a period of time, does that change the data ? How is this birds acceleration to catch up with the flock which is now 15 miles ahead, but still within the birds view, affect the data ?

Re Lee, you are correct, but in the end it may be a moot point, since it is somewhat of a theortical concept, after all racing pigeons can fly faster then the race data indicates, but they are not getting home much faster either. The old data never took into account the new information gleemed by using GPS and aircraft. Most readers may not understand it, and I don't think anyone can disprove it by applying mathmatical principals. 

I could be all wet, that was/is my limited though on the subject. It is an academic discussion. Bottom line is I clocked my teams flying north along I #83 in excess of 65 mph on a calm clear day. But that may have only been for a short period of time, as it was a short training toss.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Now getting back to your 45 mph baseline speed. My understanding which may be incorrect, was described to me by my WWII Pigeon Corp mentor. The research is somewhat dated, but it was based on speed averages, over many distances, and is just that, some piece of data. *Perhaps the term today should be mean, average or some other term.*


Hi Warren, 

I think you've hit on something here...and the differences on opinion You racing folks are going on an "average" speed during a race and factoring in all the possibilities like getting lost, stopping for rests, stopping to flirt with a potential fling etc. The time clock can ONLY go by an average speed and calculate a "base/average" speed during the course of a race.

The intial post was entitled, "top speed" and inquiring about racing pigeons top speeds specifically. This doesn't seem to be asking for an average speed or one calculated in YPM during a competition. This was a question asking what the top speed of a racing pigeon is, under any circumstance, at least this is what I understood.

I think we can all agree that no pigeon is going to fly 60mph+ for 1000 miles. However, homing pigeons and ferals are certainly capable of flying these speeds for quite some time. Maybe not 100 miles continuously, but certainly more than a quick sprint like 1 mile, 5 miles or even 10....they can maintain the higher speeds for quite awhile when they choose.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Re Lee,
> 
> I have been trying to follow backwards....to find your orginal "Base Line" speed. It is apparent to me, that the younger members are taking different sematic view of the term "Base Line", which was a mathmatical calulation which was taught in what they called the "Old School". You are forgetting that there may have also been regional differences. It is also quite possible, that this mathmatic term "baseline" is taught in various other disciplines such as accounting, which means something all together different. I sometimes use the term as "baseline breeding coefficent".
> 
> ...


You took the words right out of my mouth. I've STARTED a couple of posts along the same lines about how our "race speeds" aren't really "race speeds" but a "number" to determine who wins what...........it just didn't come out quite right and I'd delete it every time. Coming from me, it sounded sort of stupid.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI WARREN, I am glad you posted and I agree with you.At the race station when the birds are released they will circle the longer they stay at the race station the slower the calulated speed will be but the birds will actualy fly faster while coming home then the calulated speed. This just one of many things that will an effect on the calulated or avarage speed of the bird during that race. .GEORGE


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If we are looking at top speeds only I am not sure When Workman set an all time speed record And i believe it was about 103 miles per hour. Then he was paired to a bird called Motta The workman strain was born Many bought birds from this line And many found disapointment with them. As speed on a given race is just that for that day. I was just refuring to what I was taught as baseline nonenhanced speed of a racing homer of 45 miles per hour Then add speed as to windage. And deduct from 45 for head winds. It has been proven birds like planes do not fly a straight line as a plane would also over shoot the airport a bird would end up off course also. So flight is allways more then survey line. Left or right arc in the line of flight valued at windage giving the arc direction. Surface winds are allways less and different then upper altitude windage. Calm on the ground is not so at altitude levels. People have even gone so far as to try to breed birds that could get higher to catch more winds The jet stream concept. It has failed also as Other things way into fligt speeds Magnetic pull helps deturmine the flight also. Plus we must look at the wing shape storey the straighter the wing the slower the flight but the ability to fly the old distance with less effert. Means glide if you will for a resting moment. the strong arc wings turned more back more angle of the primary and then secondary flights gives enhanced speed over shorter range.Bone structure on dencity ways also. The lighter the bird of the same size it should by all means pickup greater speed. Training of the birds way so much into desire to get home The old story the more your birds love there loft the faster they come home. So many concepts go into breeding the fine tuned racing pigeon. And the best in the world in the wrong hands are soon just average birds. Human times birds Then we know each bird is the effect of our effert to breed the perfect bird And we know perfect never comes but its fun trying each year.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Robert,

You are so correct. I confess that once upon a time I even invested some time into the idea of reinventing the modern racer by redesigning the bird from the ground up. I think in those days, very high flying breeds like tipplers were figured into the mix.  Didn't take too long to figure out that the last hundred generations or so, already redesigned the better bird through the normal selection process of racing. 

However, I think I did end up inventing a better tippler by accident !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Robert,
> 
> You are so correct. I confess that once upon a time I even invested some time into the idea of reinventing the modern racer by redesigning the bird from the ground up. I think in those days, very high flying breeds like tipplers were figured into the mix.  Didn't take too long to figure out that the last hundred generations or so, already redesigned the better bird through the normal selection process of racing.
> 
> However, I think I did end up inventing a better tippler by accident !


The idea will still crop up every so often for breeding a cross to enhance the birds. And you are right The selection process has already done that threw the times. I had looked at the back breeding of the for bearer breeds in the past to grab some old blood group. But figured what you out breed for you also get the bad with the good.


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