# Very watery poop



## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I have 2 rehab pigeons and 1 or the other have very watery poop, looks alot like clear water with broken small pieces of green firm poo in it, any ideas what could be wrong? 1 is the head trauma case pigeon. 

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cindy, did the second pigeon have the watery poops on arrival? Are they housed separately? What meds have they had so far, how long have you had them and what do you have on hand? Any unusual odors from either of the two
or their poops? Is it possible to post pics of the birds and droppings?

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I will post imediately hold on a second. The second pigeon baby about 1 month old was fine he was the one found floating in the nasty river. The first one (head trauma case ) her poop has always been a little loose. I have housed them together as the baby eats seeds and hoping he could teach the second one( head trauma) how to eat seeds. The only meds I have on hand are SMZ-TMP liquid 15ml . I have had the head trauma one for about 1 month now and the other one for about a week 1/2. No odors that aren't unusual for poop.


Cindy


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Here are some pics of the birds

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wow they are so pretty and cute.
Is it the head trauma bird that has the watery poops? 

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

They sure are cute!

It looks to me like a bird I had that had a bad case of coccidiosis.

Do you have any probiotics or yogurt/kefir on hand? They need to re-establish some gut flora.

Be sure to put a drop of ACV in the water also, and a drop of colloidal silver down the throat for infection. This will help with youngsters.

Youngster are easily depleted in gut bacteria especially since they don't have much to start, when they are sick or stressed they lose their good gut bacteria and bad bacteria takes over. They may just need some reenforcements of good gut bacteria to crowd out the bad.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I am not sure what bird has the loose stools, if I take the brown beauty out the other one which is about 1 month old crys for her like crazy. Coccidiosis is that air born? Kefir can I buy that at a health food store and what is that? 
ACV? What is that also, sorry for being so dumb but I have never heard of this stuff before. 

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Coccidiosis is a protozoan parasite that lives in the intestines of pigeons, doves,
and other birds and animals. It would probably be more unusual to find a pigeon
that didn't have them than one that did especially where ferals are concerned.
It's a host-equilibrium disease, so it is a parasite that like the Trichomonad, lives in equilibrium w/the host (in this instance, a pigeon) until such time that the host is under some kind of stress. The organism then has an 'in-road' and can increase in population thereby entering into the category of 'disease state' as opposed to a 'host-equilibrium' condition.

Looks like you have Trimethoprim/Sulpha on hand, so why don't you follow the
directions w/the med (if the pigeon dose is there) and treat them for Coccidiosis. Trimethoprim/Sulpha is also good for anaerobic bacteria in the intestine so you will be treating for Coccidiosis and other unfavorable bacterial conditions at the same time. You can give probiotics at an off-set time from the med or you can give after completing the treatment. 

You can get both Kefir and raw ACV (Bragg's is a favorite) at the health
food store, and these days even some supermarkets have a health food area
where they can be purchased.

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Well the dose on the bottle was for a small Starling I think at that time weighing in at 42 grams. The brown pigeon currently weighs 246 grams and the other gray weighs 324 grams. Any idea how much to give each one and for how long? Is Coccidiosis air more, or strictly passing on thru food dish and water dish?

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Coccidiosis is not an airborn organism, it is passed from one bird to another 
generally through ingestion of one form or another. By pecking at the
loft floor, dirt, etc. and there being oocysts there for the bird to ingest.

You'll need to know the percent of the medication concentration in the liquid
that you have to do the math.

Here's a link from Gordon Chalmers that gives some information on figuring out
dosages as well as common meds used for pigeons and the dosages:

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexdsl/s/astp53/bird/vet9.htm

So, from the above link:

"Trimethoprim/sulfa : A good combination product, when bacteria are sensitive to it. We are seeing more resistant bacteria to this drug.

Dose : 30 mg per pigeon per day – 1500 mg per gallon (4 liters) for 7-14 days. "

And another link showing how to calculate dosages:

http://www.showcatsonline.com/x/calculating_dosages.htm

Best if you know the strength of the liquid med you have on hand or can call 
somewhere and find out. If you can't figure the dose out after having a look
at the links, just post back to the group.

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Thank You so much Fp I really appreciate all your help and Pidgey too. Don't know what I would do without you.  I will have a look and see what I can do with the links, it helps with my husband too as he understands that kind of stuff more than I do. Thank You again I will let you if we can figure things out. 

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

naturegirl said:


> Kefir can I buy that at a health food store and what is that?
> ACV? What is that also, sorry for being so dumb but I have never heard of this stuff before.
> 
> Cindy



ACV http://www.bragg.com/products/applecidervinegar.html

A good kefir/yogurt will provide a host of cultures that will boost and allow good gut bacteria to flourish, the birds droppings will respond in several days. You can also use human grade probiotics as well. You can get an excellent kefir/yogurt at a health food store. Make sure to get plain without anything added.

I highly recommend the Sovereign Silver as it is part of my program for cocci, it will help clean up any infection in the gut.

http://www.sovereignsilver.info/silver_overview.php


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

ok Treesa here goes yet another one of my stupid questions the ACV what will that do? I get some many birds in here every year that my mind gets so boggled I can't remember everything. Are you thinking worms? I know once I get the brown girl back to her original state, I am going to put her up for adoption as my husband won't let me keep another bird. I already have 8 inside and she is the most sweetest bird I have ever rehabbed. I hate to say I am falling in love with this bird but she has the same personality as my pesto with the friendly side. There is a guy at the local flea market selling his pigeons right now. I am thinking of going down to ask him what his plans are if he doesn't sell them. I have a funny feeling who it is and he was selling sick pigeons at the local pigeon show (pooing blood) I hope he isn't going to release them to the ferals. 

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Not Treesa, but here goes.....
ACV encourages the growth of "probiotics" in the bird's system as "probiotics"
or good bacteria are acid loving organisms. When the system is not functioning at it's optimum, w/a slightly acididic environment, it begins to
become alkaline and the acid loving good bacteria suffer a decline in population.
Nature being what it is, doesn't care for a vaccuum and the potential for other
non-friendly organisms who don't like acidic environments to find this enviting and set up shop to multiply becomes more likely. Interestingly, alot of disease producing organisms just don't care for acidic environments; parasitic protozoans, bacteria, and worms all go into this category. Encouraging the
populations of good bacteria is an effective way to establish and maintain good
health not just for pigeons but for animals and humans in general.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy, 


Yes, I would definitely have them both on the ACV-Water...being for this instance, say: 2-1/2 Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of Water.

Just buy a Gallon of drinking water at 7-11 for a buck, add the ACV, label it clearly...and use that for their drinking Water then for the next ten days or so.


Ambiguous 'loose' or watery 'off' poop presentations can derive from seemingly endless digestive or intestinal troubles stemming from bacteria or other out of balance flora or fauna, as well as from illness, changes in hormone levels from puberty or reproductive cycles, diet, and lord knows what else.


The ACV will alter the PH of their Crop and to whatever degree, down from there and or in their system generally, reducing or eliminating a long list of undesireable bacteria and other micro-organisms in the Crop, and or discouraging their replicating.

Mild Yeast infection problems can make some poops which look like the ones you are confronting, and the ACV should help this.


What is their diet?


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi Phil the gray baby is eatting seeds a regular pigeon mix and the brown girl is being hand fed baby bird formula with vitamins as she was my head trauma case but everything has come back good except her eatting and drinking. She actually starting nuzzling my fingers today while feeding her and even to the point of sucking on my finger. I watched them both today real closely and the gray baby is the one with the watery poops. I am going to the store tomorrow and will get the ACV and go price the probiotics as well. Hoping the probiotics aren't alot of money as money situations have lets just say we got a huge i mean huge attorney bill from my Attorney and when it rains it pours, this time it is a monsoon 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy, 


I would think you should be fine with just useing the ACV for now...and in fact, I myself would not use pro-biotics ( as-such ) for this situation at this time.


I do not believe that the ACV and 'pro-biotics' are per-se something one would do at the same time either, since the PH of the ACV is something one would wish to have it's effects first, for a week or two, in order to eradicate undesireable organisms in an already out of balance system, as well as to nourish their system generally...and the organisms in 'pro-biotics' can sometimes be the same ones one is trying toeradicate for the time being, or to bring 'down' to background levels merely...so, of the two, I myself go for the ACV in any instance of iffy poops or other hints of off balance fauna and flora, yeast, or candida infections, etc.


Later on sometime, you can always add pro-biotics to their Seeds by lightly glistening the Seeds in a little fresh ( must be a brand new bottle, no compromise ! ) Olive Oil...and the pro-biotic powder will stick to the Seeds nicely.


The pro-biotics I buy and use are 'Udos Choice" () Udos has several proprietary kinds, and I use the ones for Infants but I am sure any would be excellent ) and I think a little Bottle is like $20.00, but it will be enough for many MANY years of many many Pigeons.

I could just mail you a spoonfull sometime if you wanted, since you do not have a lot of Birds you will be needing it for. So, let me know, happy to do.

One only uses a little 'pinch' anyway...


Really, for now, you can glisten the Grey one's Seeds with fresh Olive Oil as mentioned, and add to them some powdered 'Super Greens' of one kind or another or in combination..."Chlorella" would be a good one, or powdered Alphalfa or Wheat Grass. These can be had cheaply in Health Food Stores which sell bulk items...and would be good for him. Get some powdered purple dulce too while you are there...these will only cost a few bucks for a couple ounces of each.


My guess is he has a mild yeast infection, and a week or two on ACV-Water should straighten him out...and really, some fresh minced-fine, fresh Greens ( Kale, Endive, Cilantro) piled up next to his Seeds every other day would be ideal, or powdered Greens as a second choice, in the glistened Seeds, would do him good.


Be very good for him regardless...so, if it does not clear up his poops, then it will nourish and strengthen him and aid his system to fight off whatever is the culprit.

...if things do not clear up in a week or so, have you a friendly Avian Vet you can get a fecal analysis dome by? ( "Foys" does them via you mailing in the sample, next day or second day air...and calls you with the results... and charges a very very reasonable price to do it...)

I still dop not know how to suspect Coccidiosis in visually noted poop evidence, but it is not usually expected in young ones anyway far as I recall...

Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

There are probiotics in raw ACV w/the mother in it.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

A word of caution, super greens/powdered greens contaning any blue-green algea should not be used. blue green algae is on the toxic list for birds.

Please read the ingredients if you make such a purchase.

Chlorella, alfafla are fine, but use sparingly, because too much can cause diarrhea.


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