# concerned-pls advise



## pgnanddove (Sep 3, 2003)

Hello folks,

On June 8, I purchased PMV and Pox vaccines in one of the pigeon supply stores in the USA. Today is June 21 and I still haven't recieved it. I checked that there is no issue in payment as my card has been charged on the same day of purchase, as first I assumed that was the delay, then I thought may be because of crossborder delays (I am in Canada). But that may not be the case either. 

Anyway, my question is, is the vaccine safe/effective to use after all these humid days? I checked nearly 5 times since June 11 (this was said to be the delivery day) with the lady at the other end of the phone and she said that they ship to other countries and it is ok for vaccine to be outside of normal temperature (I think recommended to be in a refrigerator or at least it should be moderate temp). Is this true?

Please advise.

thanks

PS: Canadian Friends, please let me know if you know any place in Canada that sells/ships vaccines. At least the cross border delay might be avoided, I hope.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello,

I'm in Toronto and afew years ago I ordered the PMV vaccine from the US (http://www.siegelpigeons.com) and it arrived in 4-5 days in a cool pack.


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

*concern*

I would have a concern, after that many days. When it entered the mails, how long in transit, etc. would be something you could find out from the shipper.
I think you should direct your questions also to the people who sold you the medicines. They should be able to tell more because they should know just how long this medicine has not been refrigerated.


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## pgnanddove (Sep 3, 2003)

I finaly got the product. 22 Days after I ordered and not thrilled about the service provided by the seller. Anyway, Bigbird, I can not count on what the clerk tells me because she/he wants a sale. I think the mistake is theirs because there were no DIN (Drug ID Number) for the product and therefore, it became an illegal item as it entered Canada. 

So, please advise if it is good to vaccinate with this many days past. Otherwise, I will have to purchase these again. 

Is there any Canadian supplier for these vaccines?

Thanks


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## Snowbird (Jun 24, 2004)

"Be sure when ordering vaccines to specify overnight or two-day shipping! Refrigerate, but do not freeze!" that's what Siegels says.

Your out of luck. You can try the pox because it should produce a rash if it's working.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Pgn&Dove,
If it were me, & there was part of the order I felt I couldn't use, I would return the whole lot. If you use part of the order, I doubt you could return the rest.

You have verification of the date it was shipped as it should be on the box & I assume you can confirm the date you received it. A 22 day delivery, would be unacceptable to me. 
JMO 

Good luck! 

Cindy


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## Geranyl (May 13, 2004)

*Return them.*

I just thought I would chime in. We've been having similar problems in the laboratory I'm in where heat sensitive products such as antibodies and antigen preparations get stuck somewhere in fedex and sit around in the heat. I wouldn't even bother trying to use the products. Return them and make sure they send it with a company that has access to refridgeration over the weekends.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello,

I would return the product and ask for a replacement or refund. It is a combined vaccine so if you use it for pox you will still injecting the out-of-date PMV component into the pigeon. I don't know what effect this would have on the pigeon, or what effect using a PMV vaccine at a later date on would have , but I would not risk my own pigeons that way.


Cynthia


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Yes, I agree with Cynthia..


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

No, don't use the vaccine -- at least not the PMV. It must be kept cool (68 deg or lower), or it can start to break down.

Return it to the vendor for refund, if you can. We had this problem a few years back, and contacted the manufacturer (Maine Labs), who told us not to use it.

If you are buying from a US supplier, use Seigals or Jedds. I find them the best -- they ship it in an airtight box, with styrofoam padding and freezer packs that stay cold for days on end. They also label the box properly, so that it comes thru customs without any problems at all. They ship it UPS, so you do have to be sure you or someone else is going to be home during the day to receive it -- otherwise, it sits in the UPS truck for a couple of days. That, or have it shipped to your office if you work. Order it on a Sunday or Monday -- so that you'll be sure to have it sent out Monday or Tues -- and you should receive it by Friday latest.

As for Canadian Supplier -- you can get the CU to order it for you, but by the time you add the extra cost for them to order it and have it shipped to you, it's almost the same, if not cheaper, to order it direct yourself.

There is no where in Canada that you can directly purchase pigeon vaccine of any kind, yet.


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## pgnanddove (Sep 3, 2003)

Folks,
Of course I am gonna do what you all suggested. Not going to use and don't wanna risk my birds. As for the details, I contacted the shipper and the clerk said it is ok to use (therefore, they will not accept the return of the product I presume). I haven't called the laboratory yet, but WhitwingsCA went through this before, I don't think it is worth calling them either. When I got the pack, the ice and all melted. 

Anyway, thanks to all of you. I will try Siegals. I got a catalog from them and why not give them a try. I not really thrilled about the fact that there is no Canadian distributor with this many memebers on the CRPU. 

Thanks again.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

pgnanddove said:


> I not really thrilled about the fact that there is no Canadian distributor with this many memebers on the CRPU.
> 
> Thanks again.




It's got something to do with government regulations and certain medications only being allowed to be sold by veterinarians. The CU can't carry even a small percentage of what the US pigeon supply stores can.

Even local feed stores are far more restricted now in what they are allowed to sell. Used to be you could walk into a feed store, and buy a bottle of penicillin and needles to inject your horses/cows/pigs, etc. Not anymore (not necessary a bad thing though....  )


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## pgnanddove (Sep 3, 2003)

Hi guys,

pardon me for bumping up this topic from some time ago. 

As few of you suggested, I ordered PMV vaccine from Siegals. They ship it on UPS Express and I got it today. However, there is no cool pack in it. As Mary and WhitewingsCA, you may know that today's temperature in TO is nearly 34C with humidity. Now can I use the vaccine or it is useless again? 

Please advise. thanks,


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

How long has the package been in transit? Did you ask them to pack it with a cool pack? 

I would call Siegels and question them about it, and ask for a refund if it has been in transit too long, and re-order.

Treesa


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## pgnanddove (Sep 3, 2003)

Hi Treesa,

It was in transit for 2 days. However, I did ask them to pack in cool pack and that is exactly what the lady told me too. However, it was not what I found. Shredded paper was the packing material. 

Also, once opened, do I have to finish all of the vaccine? any idea.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello,

Yes I ordered my vaccine from Siegel's and it came in this little box with this "cold" pack thingy.. Wasn't cold though.

And yes once you open you must use the whole thing that is what is recommended. So don't open until you are ready and shake well too. 
Someone told me though that a little bit of wax could be melted to seal it back up and then it could be stored for another 4 months (not sure about that though)


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Also the vaccine should be kept cool in the fridge..


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

The PMV vaccine should be okay, but if it wasn't shipped in ice and the salesperson said they would put it in ice, I would still let them know.

I'm sure you have refrigerated it upon receipt, once you are done using it, you may hold on to it incase you get a few more birds. However, I would look at the instructions and find out how and when it needs to be thrown away. Call Siegels if the instructions are not enclosed.

Treesa


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

What you can do, if only vaccinating a few birds --- draw off enough vaccine from the refridgerated bottle to do the # of birds you need to vaccinate.

Leave the original bottle in the fridge -- and let the drawn off amount come to room temperature before vaccinating.

The rubber "stopper" on the original bottle will 'seal' up enough to protect the contents -- as long as you are using a small syringe to draw off the amount. Do NOT remove the metal seal -- just pop it up enough to get a needle inside.

NEVER vaccinate with cold vacccine. (Room temp only!). Do NOT let the whole bottle come to room temp, and the re-refridgerate over and over -- the vaccine will break down and be useless.

As to the supply you received from Seigals -- it's hard to say if it's still good or not, given the temps we've been having. The UPS trucks are usually fairly cool though, so hopefully it will be ok. It's been a couple of years since we ordered from them -- maybe they don't have as good staff as they used to.  When we last ordered, they did have cold packs in them.

Jedds seems to be the best for packing from what I've heard/seen -- their cold packs where still frozen when we got them -- the entire box was also lined in styrofoam sheets - sides, top, bottom.

We also try to order in spring or fall, when the weather isn't quite so warm.


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## pgnanddove (Sep 3, 2003)

Treesa, Mary and WhitewingsCA,

Thanks for the input. 
Well no cold pack at all, but I am wondering if it was kept in a refrigerator at their location to begin with. 

I refrigerated immediately. Hope it works. THanks again.


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## lynch (Mar 20, 2005)

Thanks to everyone for information.

This subject very good for me.

But I have another question relevant for this topic.

PMV and POX vaccine store the refrigerate until last use date this ok.

Paratyphoid vaccine is can store refrigerate until last use date?

Which Paratyphoid vaccine can store refrigerate?

This is impossible? This only available for PMV vaccine?

Example salbac,colombovac Paratyphoid vaccines or etc..

Thanks a lot


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