# Breathing Heavily...more advice please



## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi, again...I posted yesterday and Sunday about one of my female tumblers who has a bacterial respiratory infection...no outward signs, I started her off on Nifuramycin yesterday lunch time ( in her drinking water)...but there is no improvement. Am I being impatient? The chap who gave me this, said it is brilliant, so I was expecting it to pick her up straight away!! I suppose it has only been about 30 hours. Another thing is, she is picking at her food and grit every now and again but as yet I haven't seen her drink, so I have been syringing next to her beak and she has been drinking it without any problem...I have been giving her a as much as she will take every couple of hours (since lunctime today) I think I just need some reassurance, which I know I won't get from my local vet...and as you probably know the Nifuramycin is not legal in this country (UK) I really just need someone to tell me that she is going to be ok. Also will I need to give her water through the night? or might she be drinking and I'm just missing it!
thanks again...Jayne


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It probably is a bit soon to expect noticeable results especially since the bird isn't "eagerly" drinking the treated water. I suspect that not enough of the medication is getting into the system. You might want to try tubing or syringing perhaps 5 cc of the medicated water directly into the crop several times a day.

It's awfully hard to say how serious or not the condition of the bird might be. I sure hope she starts to respond to the medication and will make a full recovery.

Terry


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

beausmammy said:


> Hi, again...I posted yesterday and Sunday about one of my female tumblers who has a bacterial respiratory infection...no outward signs, I started her off on Nifuramycin yesterday lunch time ( in her drinking water)...but there is no improvement. Am I being impatient? The chap who gave me this, said it is brilliant, so I was expecting it to pick her up straight away!! I suppose it has only been about 30 hours. Another thing is, she is picking at her food and grit every now and again but as yet I haven't seen her drink, so I have been syringing next to her beak and she has been drinking it without any problem...I have been giving her a as much as she will take every couple of hours (since lunctime today) I think I just need some reassurance, which I know I won't get from my local vet...and as you probably know the Nifuramycin is not legal in this country (UK) I really just need someone to tell me that she is going to be ok. Also will I need to give her water through the night? or might she be drinking and I'm just missing it!
> thanks again...Jayne


Jayne, I'm sorry your baby is so sick. I think maybe 30 hours is not enough time. I would suspect it will take at least 2 days to see improvement, although I'm not familiar with the Nifuramycin. I also don't think I would worry about giving her water through the night. She's probably getting more of the water than she would normally get throughout the day, even if she was drinking on her own. I sure hope she gets better soon. Good luck.


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Thank you both so much,.....I'm just so worried about her, I forgot to ask...I have her in a clear plastic box with a lid with loads of 2cm holes in the top...half covered with a blanket, but in a very airy place...will she need heat? the room is quite cool...also I've never fed directly into a crop before...would it be ok to continue with the syringe to her beak? she is taking it really well....thanks again... Jayne


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Jayne,

I as well am not really familiar with Nifuramycin. We recently had one of of our members, pdpbison, post with a with respiratory illness, you can read the thread here http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=17854 .

My advice would be the same to you, if you can manage, in the absence of lab work I think a good shotgun approach with respiratory infections is a combination of Baytril and Doxycycline. I agree with the others in that it is a little soon, but if you do not start to see some improvement by tomorrow, especially if you are syringe medicating and know your little one is getting the med, I would consider a switch in protocols.

Very best of luck with your little one,

Ron


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi Jazaroo...I have quickly read your link...the only thing is that she has no discharge or soar throat that I can see.She is breathing with her beak open and it seems like a real effort.. If I see no improvement in the morning I will Take her to my vet.... he's not the best but I will go armed with your medication information...I will keep you posted...thanks.. Jayne


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Jayne,

Nasal discharge or sore throat does always present with RTIs, please keep us updated.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jayne, I believe that she needs the Baytril and Doxycycline like Ron mentioned going directly into her by syringe. Until you can get her to a vet tomorrow I would do as Terry suggested and give her the medicated Water with a syringe to make sure she is getting the meds in her.


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi, just a quick update...the vet has given me baytril..to administor daily. this is only day 2...she seems a lot better first thing in the morning but as the day goes on she is back to gasping with her beak open and her little chest heaving. The vet is concerned that it is maybe some kind of tumour..as none of my other pigeons are affected......please think of her in your pigeon prayers....heres hoping...Jayne x


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Jayne,

Please add the Doxycycline along with the Baytril. 

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jayne, one of our pigeons that had a tumor started swelling in her lower abdomen so you may want to keep an eye out for any unusual swelling. I believe, although I can't remember for sure, that a radiograph (x-ray) can pick them up in the abdomen. Lets hope and pray that it is a RTI and that the Baytril and, hopefully, Doxycycline, will knock it right out.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Causes of breathing problems*

Jayne,

You state that her breathing changes, starting from "fine" at the beginning of the day to "worse" later on. 

Perhaps you might want to make a list of external (environmental) changes that occur on a diurnal (occurring on a daily basis). Do this over a week, at least.

Don't cease looking for other factors whch you and others have already mentioned, such as asthma, infections, internal goings-on.

I am suggesting this as an additional tool or gimmick or technique, call it what you will, which might uncover something you would otherwise overlook or not find readily.

To start, what changes on a daily basis in your bird's life?

- sunshine. Symptoms change if bird is exposed to more or less sunshine? Symptoms occur only on sunny or on cloudy days? I have (atypical) asthma. Sometimes it seems to me my chronic chest congestion is worse on cloudy days -- haven't correlated it to barometric changes because I do not yet have a barometer. Sunny days I seem to breathe easier. But there are exceptions to both. 

As the sun rises in the sky, relative humidity can change. Cold air holds less moisture than warm air. 

Could be something as complicated as a combination of factors such as (silly example: sunny day, Saturday vacuum cleaning of certain rug by wife, sun actiivating certain chemical or microorganism activity in rug, and my eating a certain cereal, all three things adding up to enough stimulation to cause asthma symptom to be noticeable. 

Does the dust load (airborne particles) change over the course of the day? Air condtioner or heater kick in? Toaster or coffeemaker automatically switch on? Do you use a Teflon-coated cooking utensil at a certain time everyday? Oven self-cleaning every night? Plant flowers open, unfold daily? Sunshine hit new carpet or new drape, possibly releasing formaldehyde or preservative (too much of which may have been accidentally put in during manufacturing? Consumers' Union _Consumer Reports_ magazine lists product re-calls and alerts every issue, so it does happen. Cadmium and lead and cobalt and other heavy metal paint pigments in products from third-world and developing countries. 

Could be your pigeon has a daily drink from a certain dish which is contaminated by some chemical or insecticide. 

The list can go on and on. You have to let your imagination run wild. Of course there are other things you have to do every day, and life has to go on, but you get the general idea. Free associate.

True incident (think I mentioned this in another post, but no matter): A lady once went to her car mechanic to get her car fixed. Told him her car had trouble starting at times. Told him her car liked pistachio ice cream, but disliked vanilla ice cream. Asked to explain, she said that when stopped at the ice cream parlor for pistachio ice cream, her car would start right up aferwards, but if she bought vanilla ice cream, her car wouldn't start for ten minutes or more.

That didn't make sense to him, so he accompanied her to the ice cream parlor. She bought some pistachio ice cream, brought it out to the car, set it on the seat beside her, and sure enough, the car started right up. He asked her to drive around a bit, then they returned to the shop and she bought vanilla ice cream. When she came out, the car wouldn't start. The explanation: When she bought vanilla ice cream, it was already in a container, and it took her only a couple of minutes from the time she parked the car, to the time she returned. The gasoline line passed too close to the engine block, a gas bubble formed and caused vapor lock (gasoline wouldn't flow into the carburetor). When she bought pistachio ice cream, it took longer because it was hand-packed into a container. The car developed vapor lock, but since the car sat longer, the engine had time to cool and the vapor bubble was reabsorbed, permitting the car to start right away. He had to move, or insulate the gasoline line, away from the engine.

If only your pigeon could talk in a language we could readily understand!

Hopefully it isn't a tumor causing the problem.

Larry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

What a great mechanic that lady had! AND, they took the time to figure it out!

There IS an ANSWER to EVERYTHING but trying to find said answer, can be a REAL PAIN!.

And, worse, when one tends to be impatient (can relate!) and when one is more into "instant" results!!

Thanks, Larry!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

Just out of curiosity, what happened to the bird with the abdominal tumor? I ask because one of the possible diagnoses for Winter was that although it proved to be what it was--a ruptured oviduct with calcareous debris spilled into the abdominal cavity. It's only when you open them up that some mysteries resolve in cases like that. Pattie Cakers now has a lump back there and I'll warrant that it's something like she had last time, of course. From the outside, though, a vet would usually pronounce "a tumor" and then generally proceed to not do anything about it. It would certainly kill the bird in time just like a tumor might.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Lady Tarheel,
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what happened to the bird with the abdominal tumor? I ask because one of the possible diagnoses for Winter was that although it proved to be what it was--a ruptured oviduct with calcareous debris spilled into the abdominal cavity. It's only when you open them up that some mysteries resolve in cases like that. *Pattie Cakers now has a lump back there* and I'll warrant that it's something like she had last time, of course. From the outside, though, a vet would usually pronounce "a tumor" and then generally proceed to not do anything about it. It would certainly kill the bird in time just like a tumor might.
> 
> Pidgey



YIKES, Pidgey! Hope she will be OK!!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, this was our (about) 14 year old Gracie who died about 4 years ago. She became lethargic, wouldn't eat, showed confusion at times like she didn't know where she was. Even tho she slowed down on eating her weight kept increasing and we noted a swelling on her stomach near the vent area.

When we took her to our vet, she said Gracie had a great deal of fluid in her stomach area and decided to drain some of it to make her more comfortable and try to determine what was going on. The fluid she drew out was blood. She said that usually when that happens it is cancer and the prognosis was guarded. She put her on something (I'd have to check notes because I can't remember what) but she lasted about three days steadily going downhill until you could tell she was suffering and we decided to euthanize. It was a rough few days, almost like she was comatose off and on.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, drawing out blood in a case like that is about as bad a sign as they get.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> YIKES, Pidgey! Hope she will be OK!!!


Oh, that's been that way all along on this deal. I've known that there was stuff going that route in her but it's most likely just her oviduct problems rather than a lump. I meant that if untreated, oviduct problems like this are every bit as deadly as tumors like Lady Tarheel was referring to. Pattie Cakers' prognosis is pretty good, actually. She's now gaining weight slowly but surely and we're just trying to fatten her up for surgery. We could probably do it at any time at this point but I'd still feel better with another 30 to 50 grams on her.

Pidgey


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

No discharge and such. Have you checked her vent area to see if she may be eg bound This would cause labored breathing to. Have you looked down her throat to see if she may have canker real bad. How is her normal body wieght does she feel light. Is her droppings loose. Does she have a rattle with her breathing. Does she seem to cough. Is her beak and leg color good. List some of the answers to these questions it may help.


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