# 4 in 1 medpet, is it toxic?



## jsummers07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I bought the 4 in 1 medpet (paratyphoid, canker ect.). Do you only use this stuff when you have a problem or do you use it as a preventative? I started feeding it and I lost a bird today. She was vomiting water. I separated her from the others and gave her regular water and she died. Is this stuff toxic and can birds be allergic? I raised pigeons as a kid and got back in it a year ago and now you have to vaccinate and give drugs. Has the pigeon hobby become infected with disease? I am a little frustrated.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The 4 in 1's really aren't any good to cure anything. They just don't have enough of any one drug in them. They might even cause resistance to that drug because you are giving a lesser amount. The bacteria could become resistant to it. Was there a reason why you were medicating your birds?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

What breeds do you have?, some purebred breeds can be delicate or sensitive to some meds, if you have to cure use something with a good safety margin. Otherwise do not medicate for prevention. Just have good husbantry, which goes a long way in not having sickness in your loft.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Most of the new pigeon fanciers use to buy these 4 in 1 medicines, i was wondering why they are being marketed so much if they are of no use and surprisingly it is advised to use it monthly as preventive purpose! Do we take antibiotics as preventive measure???

Even i bought a few of those, but to be true mostly they could worse things and not any better


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I had a look, and the medpet 4-in-1 is Furaltadone 20% , Ronidazole

Ronidazole is fine. The Furaltadone is known to cause nausea and vomiting sometimes, so there's a slight possibility she aspirated. But the illness could have caused the vomiting too, nothing to do with the medication.

Medpet make good stuff usually, I don't think you did anything wrong.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> I had a look, and the medpet 4-in-1 is Furaltadone 20% , Ronidazole
> 
> Ronidazole is fine. The Furaltadone is known to cause nausea and vomiting sometimes, so there's a slight possibility she aspirated. But the illness could have caused the vomiting too, nothing to do with the medication.
> 
> Medpet make good stuff usually, I don't think you did anything wrong.


Hi Bella

There is alot of debate on these 4 in 1 meds, that says use it precautionary, is it wise to medicate this way?

Your opinion here is an expert opinion but what if a novice like to treat his bird without any professional advice


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pijlover said:


> Most of the new pigeon fanciers use to buy these 4 in 1 medicines, *i was wondering why they are being marketed so much if they are of no use and surprisingly it is advised to use it monthly as preventive purpose! Do we take antibiotics as preventive measure???*
> 
> Even i bought a few of those, but to be true mostly they could worse things and not any better


They are easy to get, online, easy to administer for a lot of pigeons in one go, and save people the bother (and expense) of trying to get an accurate diagnosis for sick birds. As jay3 said, giving them as a fix is not likely to be really effective, and can just create future problems if given as a preventative.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pijlover said:


> Most of the new pigeon fanciers use to buy these 4 in 1 medicines, i was wondering why they are being marketed so much if they are of no use and surprisingly it is advised to use it monthly as preventive purpose! *Do we take antibiotics as preventive measure???*
> 
> Even i bought a few of those, but to be true mostly they could worse things and not any better


Right! Would you take penicillin this week because you might get a sore throat next month?
Antibiotics should only be used if your treating a specific illness.....and not the 4in1 meds, as Jay3 said.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pijlover said:


> Most of the new pigeon fanciers use to buy these 4 in 1 medicines, i was wondering why they are being marketed so much if they are of no use and surprisingly it is advised to use it monthly as preventive purpose! Do we take antibiotics as preventive measure???
> 
> Even i bought a few of those, but to be true mostly they could worse things and not any better



When you give a little bit of a med, but not really enough to kill the bacteria, what you are actually doing, is to help the bacteria to build a resistance to the drug. You are making the bacteria stronger. Then if you do need to treat them, the drug isn't going to kill the bacteria, as it has built a resistance to that drug. 
Why do they sell them? Because people will buy them. They think it's easier to give one thing that covers everything. And they figure they'll save money, rather than buying a good medication for each particular illness or bacteria they might have to treat for. Many also won't use a good vet, so they figure it's easier to just give a four in one, and they hope it will cover whatever it is that the birds might have. Kinda like a shot in the dark. Better to know what you are treating for, and give the right med to take care of it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

They sell the "in ones" to make money off of people who use the prevention method..which is flawed as explained above.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pijlover said:


> Hi Bella
> 
> There is alot of debate on these 4 in 1 meds, that says use it precautionary, is it wise to medicate this way?


Hi Pijlover!

Yes you are right, its not a good idea to use these combination medicines as a general rule.

However, you also have to consider the ingredients in the combination medicine, and the dosages of each ingredient. I always check when someone asks. Every combination powder has different medicine in it at different concentrations, so its not possible to say that `all combination medicines are bad', when none are the same.

In the case of the medpet 4-in-1, if you look at the exact ingredients, its only 2 ingredients, and they are both good solutions for flock treatment, and I've used both of these (ronidazole, Furaltadone) personally with good results.

But to sum up, yes it best to advise novices to not use these, because they are unlikely to check the ingredients to see if they are effective and safe.

Hope you are well!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

As has been said before, the quantity of each med in those multi-in-one applications is not enough to treat effectively for a single bird, let alone in water for a flock treatment.
Its really pretty obvious & logical when you think about it,
If it were, it would come under the strict prescription restriction of the individual drugs and would not be available or legal otherwise.
Also as advised by ANY health agency, the CORRECT antibiotics should be administered ONLY when needed, in the CORRECT dose, and for the PRESCRIBED PERIOD.
Anything else allows the bacteria to become resistant to them and therefore decreases their effectiveness if not rendering them useless.
So, even if it did help for one disease/symptom, you are effectively causing complications should your bird later develop other diseases/symptoms.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well the 4 in 1 is only 7% Ronidazole, and the Ronidazole I use in 10%. They both tell you to give it for 5 to 7 days. So I'd say that the 4 in 1 would be under dosing. You can build resistance in the trichomonads using the 4 in 1. But then there are people who underdose, and that is part of the reason why we are seeing resistant cases of canker around. They may both be good drugs, but not in the amounts that are in those meds.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I guess any kind of pharmaceutical meds given as a 'maintenance' or 'preventative' dose can result in lessening of effect when, in the future, a bird may actually need them - particularly as a flock treatment in water. So, we get resistant Canker, worms and bacteria ⚠


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I think we need to consider the actual medicine this OP used & is asking about specifically, which is medpet 4 in 1, instead of speaking so broadly.

Medpet 4 in 1 contains 350mg ronidazole per 5 gram scoop, enough to treat 10-20 birds (depending on body weight) for canker at the correct dosage for body weight. You'd put a 2-3 scoops in 2 liters of water (note, this may not be the correct dose for the weight ) and you wouldn't be underdosing at all. 

It also has an excellent safety margin as a med.

You've got to look at the combination med in question to work out if it has enough medicine in it or not. 


PS. Bob, plenty of really effective antibiotics are available without prescription from places like jedd's.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

jsummers07 said:


> Has the pigeon hobby become infected with disease? I am a little frustrated.


Never meant to distract this thread from the subject, really sorry on your loss. There is no need to be frustrated because everyone bear this loss in the hobby even experienced people 

If you want to continue the hobby and want to see your birds healthy, here are a few tips that are discussed in this tread and other, i am trying to sumup for you 


Use probiotics to strengthen the immune system
Treat your birds only when you see some signs or symptoms of the disease
Consult a vet if possible or share it on some pigeon site (like here where you can find responisble people)
Try to learn the ingredients of the medicines you are using
Go meet pigeon people around who are more experienced or make friendship with them
Last but not least educate yourself on different diseases and thier symptoms and treatments


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> But to sum up, yes it best to advise novices to not use these, because they are unlikely to check the ingredients to see if they are effective and safe.
> 
> Hope you are well!


I am doing fine, thankyou 

Its been in practise by many of the pigeon people to give these 4 in1 meds on every month basis and they think that its good for their birds, almost all poultry people have the same practices or i guess all live stock dealers because they want to keep their stocks alive until they are sold, now if it is done in some technical supervision its okay, otherwsie its totally risky like it said by you and from some of the members

So i guess it is a marketing technique of the pharmaceutical companies to encourage people to copy those poultry and live stock people practices to raise their sales, they dont bother the consequences


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Pijlover!

I see what you mean. I've heard of this practice with breeders of other animals and birds too. They overmedicate instead of properly cleaning cages and avoiding stress like overcrowded conditions etc. And then it can become a problem later in the life of the animal or bird, when they need that medicine and have already build resistance to it , because of the breeder. I've heard that this is a huge problem for puppies, for example.

With pigeons living 18 years or so, I agree that giving medicine is not something to do lightly or when the birds are not sick. They need to build immunity of their own especially the younger ones. The healthiest pigeons in my loft grew up in the wild exposed to lots of different bugs, and built up immunity. Their droppings are the most perfect and they seem impervious to illnesses that go around sometimes.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> I think we need to consider the actual medicine this OP used & is asking about specifically, which is medpet 4 in 1, instead of speaking so broadly.
> 
> Medpet 4 in 1 contains 350mg ronidazole per 5 gram scoop, enough to treat 10-20 birds (depending on body weight) for canker at the correct dosage for body weight. You'd put a 2-3 scoops in 2 liters of water (note, this may not be the correct dose for the weight ) and you wouldn't be underdosing at all.
> 
> ...


That is assuming the birds all drink enough of the water, the strength may be correct, but the dose most certainly wouldnt.
The safety margin is all about the toxicity of the drug in the birds system, not the amount needed to kill the bacteria, if the bird doesnt drink enough, the bacteria will become resistant


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I think I understand your point now, Bob- you don't agree with flock treating in water because you find it imprecise?

I think its a valid point, but very often flock treatment can't be avoided. It may be due to the large numbers of birds involved, lack of hospital cages to keep all birds individually for duration of treatment, birds having young in the nest so can't be removed, lack of time to treat dozen or hundreds of birds individually etc. I mean many pigeon fanciers can have dozens or hundreds of birds, and individual treatment is not an option.

For flock treatment in water, most dosages are based on one pigeon drinking 30 ml per day. So far I've personally found this to be effective. Ronidazole (one of the 2 ingredients in the medpet 4 in 1) is a good example of a medicine that will offer positive therapeutic results if the pigeon drinks anywhere between 10 ml to 100 ml per day, because of its safe dosage range (anywhere from 12mg/kg q24 up to 30 mg per bird per day!).


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

I understand the problem with many birds, and yes, flock treatment would be necessary, and better than none at all, but treatment with the multi-in-ones, is treating with more than one antibiotic some of which would not be required for certain symptoms, and therefore build up a resistance to that part if required in the future. In turn this would mean that an illness could get a hold very quickly, be resilliant to the med & spread like wildfire in the loft.
By all means flock treat when necessary, but only use the correct med.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I had a friend use a 3 in 1, not sure what three, and he lost two frillbacks during treatment, the birds were not acting sick, but had off droppings, so he thought it was a good idea, he does not any longer, wish I could remember what meds were in it, but it was labeled for pigeons, so you would hope to think it would not kill your birds. Frillbacks are a breed that can be sensitive to meds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I didn't know that different breeds of pigeons were sometimes sensitive to meds. That's good to know.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Quazar said:


> In turn this would mean that an illness could get a hold very quickly, be resilliant to the med & *spread like wildfire in the loft*.
> By all means flock treat when necessary, but only use the correct med.


Sometimes its necessary to treat the whole flock, yes

Been in touch with few of the local vets, one was a qualified doctor & surgeon, he told me that these over/under medications that we are discussing is one of the reasons of worsening the PMV/New castle disease in the region

I cant go any technical on this subject but thats what i remember


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Pijlover said:


> Sometimes its necessary to treat the whole flock, yes
> 
> Been in touch with few of the local vets, one was a qualified doctor & surgeon, he told me that these over/under medications that we are discussing is one of the reasons of worsening the PMV/New castle disease in the regionI cant go any technical on this subject but thats what i remember


Difficult to see why it would affect a PMV increase as PMV is a virus, not bacterial, and antibiotics have no effect against PMV.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Bob: I am not talking about the antibiotics but the general practices of the poultry/pigeon owners about the medications


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I've heard of viruses mutating & becoming more virulent due to use of vaccines in the poultry industry, maybe thats what the Vet meant? I agree with Bob, that it seems unlikely that antibiotic use for killing bacteria would effect the PMV virus in any way. 



> I had a friend use a 3 in 1, not sure what three, and he lost two frillbacks during treatment, the birds were not acting sick, but had off droppings, so he thought it was a good idea, he does not any longer, wish I could remember what meds were in it, but it was labeled for pigeons, so you would hope to think it would not kill your birds. Frillbacks are a breed that can be sensitive to meds.


Some of those 3-in-1's for pigeons contain fenbendazole wormer, and we've seen frillbacks die from this wormer on the forum before. Wonder if the death was caused by something like that? It must have been so disappointing to try to help them, only to see them die. Frillbacks are such pretty birds too


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> I've heard of viruses mutating & becoming more virulent due to use of vaccines in the poultry industry, maybe thats what the Vet meant? I agree with Bob, that it seems unlikely that antibiotic use for killing bacteria would effect the PMV virus in any way. (


I told you i cant go anymore technical

I got my birds vaccinated few days ago, i guess what he told me was something like that, people have lost like 70% or even more of their birds due to the disease, sadly the vaccine is not available in the local market we have to import it


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pijlover said:


> Sometimes its necessary to treat the whole flock, yes
> 
> Been in touch with few of the local vets, one was a qualified doctor & surgeon, he told me that these over/under medications that we are discussing is one of the reasons of worsening the PMV/New castle disease in the region
> 
> I cant go any technical on this subject but thats what i remember


I believe that certain antiobiotics (Tetracyclines probably) can exacerbate the symptoms of PMV. Have a reference for it somewhere. Also, if the immune system is compromised by underdosing antibiotics, and weakened by PMV, it leaves birds very much more open to opportunistic infections.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

True. Interesting about tetracyclines worsening symptoms of PMV, instead of helping with secondary infections like you might imagine to be the case.

John,Do you reckon a bird that has resistance to one family of antibiotics necessarily has a compromised immune system? Or would its immune system only be compromised it was infected with the resistant bacteria and there was nothing else to treat it with? You'd think such birds would be quite noticeably sick before a virus like PMV hit?

PS. To put it another way, when pigeons develop resistant parasites (As opposed to bacteria), the wormer is traded for another one that does the same job of killing the worms. But the use of wormers isn't blamed for causing PMV and other problems, even though resistance is a fairly common result of worming......


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Well, I think it's a case with PMV that if there is very good reason to suspect the bird also has a bacterial infection then I would certainly give it, as the positive (hopefully) outcome outweighs the possible negatives. If people just say, "I'll give it Baytril (for example) anyway, just in case" then I think it may do more harm than good. But it's a pretty difficult call if one just doesn't know. Example, when I picked up Sleepy from the lady who found her, she had PMV. A week later, her night-time breathing got very noisy, like a bad cold, and I gave her Baytril for 7 days which was completely effective. It may have lengthened the time for which she displayed PMV symptoms but I believe it was justified in ths case of a bird obviously sick with a respiratory issue too.



> John,Do you reckon a bird that has resistance to one family of antibiotics necessarily has a compromised immune system? Or would its immune system only be compromised it was infected with the resistant bacteria and there was nothing else to treat it with? You'd think such birds would be quite noticeably sick before a virus like PMV hit?


That's not an easy one, really. Some bacteria just do not react to some antibiotics, or one antibiotic may just not rid the system of sufficient bacteria. Like, if a bird has what appears to be the really rough poops that can indicate an overload of Salmonella, causing just the enteritis type of Salmonellosis (no neurological signs, no swellings), and we treat with Baytril, we may find it didn't really do the trick. That can be because the bird actually has an overload of E.coli rather than Salmonella, and Baytril is just not the most effective treatment for that. 

I'd suggest that though one speaks of compromised immune systems, I for one am guilty of using a rather broad brush there. Consistently misapplying a given antibiotic is likely to result in bacteria normally susceptible to it no longer being so. I'd guess that may also include any very closely related antibiotics, but that is just an opinion. I don't think that would have much bearing on whether or not a bird was more or less likely to get a viral infection.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Ah well....can anyone conclude things here for me in a simpler way


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Pijlover!

I suppose for me, I can only judge these combination treatments as individual products. 
They are all very different in composition, so I can't personally conclude anything based on them being combinations of 2 medicines alone. 

On this thread we've been talking a lot about the dangers of flock treatment in water, and of underdosing. But those issues are present with any medication, not just medpet 4 in 1.

And we don't know if the person who started this thread underdosed, because no one asked. Call me oversensitive, but I wouldn't want to accuse or imply that someone killed their pet without checking to make sure what dose they gave, and what medicine they gave. It seems the people who accused her of killing their pet didn't bother checking either of these facts. It just seems a little mean to me, maybe because I feel so badly myself if a bird in my care dies, and I would devastated if it was my fault. So if people must accuse, it would be kinder to speak from fact, not false assumptions.

Like I said, I think this medpet 4 in 1 looks ok. Its only two medicines ,and they are good ones. If a pigeon fancier didn't use this correctly and underdosed for many years, then worst case scenario is the pigeon may develop resistance to Furaltadone antibiotic and ronidazole. So presumably, that still leaves the option of using the `important' (most effective) antibiotics like penicillin, Baytril, metronidazole, and Sulfa antibiotics in future because they are not part of this combination medicine. 

I'd be more alarmed if these combination treatments contained things like Baytril and Sulfa antibiotics, but one thing I've noticed is a lot of these combination treatments contain more exotic antibiotics and antibiotic families, like chlorophenol & Furaltadone.

Anyway, just my perspective on this. Its sad to lose a bird and not know why it happened


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hey Pijlover!
> 
> I suppose for me, I can only judge these combination treatments as individual products.
> They are all very different in composition, so I can't personally conclude anything based on them being combinations of 2 medicines alone.
> ...



Bella, no one has accused the poster of killing their bird. When they said that they had used the multi treatment med, we just said that they aren't any good to treat with, that they did no good, and could even cause resistance. We were giving them information to help them to make a better choice for meds in the future. No one said that they killed their bird with the medicine. We have no idea of what the bird had, or why he died. No one said anything remotely like that. Have no idea of where you got that.

You have used the word accused three times in that comment, but you seem to be the only one accusing anyone of anything.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3, FYI you are on my ignore list for reasons stated previously. I do not read any of your posts and have not for many months now. the ignore function is great, i suggest you use it if you don't understand or like another member's advice, instead of stalking them around the forums.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella, you make yourself far too important. LOL.


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## Arazi (Feb 22, 2020)

It is not toxic but it is of no use even if u use it to cure diseases it wilk just create resistant to disease rather mix the medicines eg. 30mg metro 15 mg enro.


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## Arazi (Feb 22, 2020)

Jay3 said:


> Bella_F said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Pijlover!
> ...


I dont know if you are now posting anything to pigeon talk but I will always follow your advice. 🙂


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