# Just an Idiot



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Am I just and idiot or is the pigeon sport going nuts? I spent a few minutes looking over auction sites and saw a Ganus winner of a 55 bird race going for 3k. What the heck are people thinking. People are spending thousands on paper with a bird attached. I would challenge a guy to go out and spend no limit money on the best 10 Ganus or Sure Bet peds and then go to his local club and pick the 10 top race birds from the club. Breed each batch separately and see what happens. I would put money on the race birds. 

A guy could come visit me and could walk away with Ganus filled paper and a few birds for a bit of time to make the trip. Yet at the same time I could fill his basket with a handful of siblings of futurity winners, high points birds and bros and sisters of my best breeders. Most would take the Ganus paperwork birds over the result based birds. 

I still find it amazing how a Surebet bird will out bid a Sangers bird, a Herbots bird, and even a Ludo bird. This is nuts. 

I guess this is why the Europeans think Americans are looney. They study race results not pedigrees. 

Please take a bit of time and look at the race results. There are some very good families out there winning their fair share of futurity races with large number of birds. Quit wasting your money on double inbred, double grandsons of fifth generation nonsense. Spend $50 bucks on two brothers of your clubs high points bird. 

Randy


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

you tell them about that...... and their this auction site that sell mostly herbot birds for under 500 bucks....http://www.worldpigeonbid.com/catalog.asp?catid=9274


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## palomo (Aug 28, 2009)

i happened to know the guy that bought that bird for 3k, its the son of "BLACK WIDOW", from champ camp race lofts. and he is really exited to put that bird to breed and enter the money race.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Pardon me, but what are Surebet, Sangers, Herbots and Ludo birds ? blood lines ??


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2009)

sreeshs said:


> Pardon me, but what are Surebet, Sangers, Herbots and Ludo birds ? blood lines ??


yes they are bloodlines created by people and I do agree just because the bird comes froma certian line doesnt make it a great bird


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

LokotaLoft said:


> yes they are bloodlines created by people and I do agree just because the bird comes froma certian line doesnt make it a great bird


My point is that birds off of National champions in Belgium go for thousands less than a Sure Bet bird. It has nothing to do with where the bird is from, but more the fact of how a bird is valued. If it says Ganus in the pedigree people think it is a great bird. Where did Ganus get his birds? From World Champion fliers where you can get the same bloodlines for thousands less. Why don't you think Ganus reveals his sources or the birds origin on the pedigree? So you and I don't give them a call and get some imports. 

I also think the point is verified when fanciers in here do not know who Sangers, Herbots, and Ludo are. These are just names off the top of my head, but the list is long for Champion fliers in Belgium and the Netherlands. 

I wonder why Heckamer, Hees, Berkey and the like don't pedal birds on the auctions? These birds are some of the best in the US. Maybe the fact is they do not have to. My mentor just picked up some nice Engels proven pairs from Darryl Bruckner for $200 a pair. A far cry from $3000 and birds that fly in the largest club in the US and do quite well. 

Just look at the Pipa auctions. Birds with good flying records against far better competition and numbers you will find in a 55 bird futurity are affordable. 

Randy


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I am myself not into pedigree, but I use it as a guide. I prefer race results (performance). I think a difference between a master and a beginner is that the master knows this stuff: pedigrees don't fly. Now if the bird has good pedigree and can back up the reputation through results (I am thinking of Ludo birds for example), then those definitely would be expensive birds and deservingly so. A pedigree alone wont make a bird a champion. But people bet anyhow and hoping that they get lucky when they purchase an expensive birds.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2009)

I agree most people dont even know what they are looking for other then that of a name of a line that has done well .. thats why I for one do appreciate any input you have on the good birds that are out there and what else one should be looking for so thanks Randy you are good at what you know and pass on to others


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I myself like "performance" birds not pedigrees, this is my third year racing I took the winners from last year and breed them togeather with good results,and this year I am breeding from winners also as the old saying goes "THE APPLE DON'T FALL FOR FROM THE TREE"


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Lovelace said:


> I myself like "performance" birds not pedigrees, this is my third year racing I took the winners from last year and breed them togeather with good results,and this year I am breeding from winners also as the old saying goes "THE APPLE DON'T FALL FOR FROM THE TREE"


Top placing, consistant birds, that will come from over 300 miles as yb's. This is what I look for and like you I think apple/tree. Bad racers can be great breeders, "I know from experience", but I think you will increase you chances of breeding good babies if you get good racers.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ohiogsp said:


> Top placing, consistant birds, that will come from over 300 miles as yb's. This is what I look for and like you I think apple/tree. Bad racers can be great breeders, "I know from experience", but I think you will increase you chances of breeding good babies if you get good racers.


Ohio
I think you are on to something about the apple 300 mile theory. This year I took my young bird results with two qualifications in mind, families that raced all the races including the 300 and top 10% finishers. I bred 45 extra young birds this year with the theory that all the siblings of the top birds will go into the breeding loft. I had four quality young birds this year and out of Ace's 10 birds two very good birds. I am also testing this theory. Three of the top young birds went to ACE, and one stayed with my partner in ABQ. So I am not breeding from the proven racers, but their same siblings or siblings of birds that bred the winners. A clear apple theory. What this will do is narrow my bloodlines. My thoughts are that all my young birds will have winning blood. No blood this year will be in question. 

My outside bloodline that will be introduced this year is from ACE, 5 birds, three sisters of his 7732 and a mother son team. I am bringing in three siblings of my 2nd high points bird, 4 siblings of the cock that bred him and another top bird, and another brother to my best cock.

Randy


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## dvtlegend (Oct 20, 2007)

people are idiots I guess. Pipa offer great birds with superb race results running through the pedigree. Parents and siblings to birds being sold on pipa all come down from proven performing lines. The auction on ipigeon with majority of ganus birds or blood that are in the top 10 in the futurity race are going for outrageous price. You can buy a few super birds on pipa and that would include quarantine and shipping fees as well and still wouldn't break the bank, compared to what the price is going for those Ganus blood on ipigeon. Ridiculous


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

I personally have had poor experience with GFL banded birds. When I am in the same races (sometimes in the same loft) as GFL banded birds and my birds (which are not down from GFL lines) outperform his then I consider mine much better for flying than his. Some of the best birds I accquired are from "little known" flyers. Randy, I agree with you 100% on this. Buyers be smart, use your head and not your heart. It is easier to carry on conversation about all the big name birds in your loft than "your own personal line or the unknown flyer down the road."
Ken


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

You must give him his due, he is a master at marketing!


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Ohio
> I think you are on to something about the apple 300 mile theory. This year I took my young bird results with two qualifications in mind, families that raced all the races including the 300 and top 10% finishers. I bred 45 extra young birds this year with the theory that all the siblings of the top birds will go into the breeding loft. I had four quality young birds this year and out of Ace's 10 birds two very good birds. I am also testing this theory. Three of the top young birds went to ACE, and one stayed with my partner in ABQ. So I am not breeding from the proven racers, but their same siblings or siblings of birds that bred the winners. A clear apple theory. What this will do is narrow my bloodlines. My thoughts are that all my young birds will have winning blood. No blood this year will be in question.
> 
> My outside bloodline that will be introduced this year is from ACE, 5 birds, three sisters of his 7732 and a mother son team. I am bringing in three siblings of my 2nd high points bird, 4 siblings of the cock that bred him and another top bird, and another brother to my best cock.
> ...


My story is simular and the reason I think the way I do. I have a foundation cock, son of a winner of the Midwest one loft race. That is 300+ so the first year I bred this bird I got a bird that placed 6th at our 340. I bred this to a 300 mile winner last year and got a 340 futurity money winner. My first year I had anouther hen that placed 8th 340 (mother to this bird won 340 yb race). So, last year I bred her to my foundation cock. I got the best 2 birds I ever flew. One was top ten in every race I entered him in and came alone to my loft everytime beating all my birds. The brother to this bird won me some money taking 5th in our 300m bond race and placeing top ten most the time I sent him. 

I have now aquired a half brother to my foundation cock and kept 4 grandchildren back for stock. The problem I am having is this family I am making is heavy on cocks and I have not got hens to put back in yet. I am hoping one of the grandchildren is a hen. I am 90 percent sure 3 of 4 are cocks.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

dvtlegend said:


> *people are idiots I guess*. Pipa offer great birds with superb race results running through the pedigree. Parents and siblings to birds being sold on pipa all come down from proven performing lines. The auction on ipigeon with majority of ganus birds or blood that are in the top 10 in the futurity race are going for outrageous price. You can buy a few super birds on pipa and that would include quarantine and shipping fees as well and still wouldn't break the bank, compared to what the price is going for those Ganus blood on ipigeon. * Ridiculous*


Well.......just to throw in my two cent view...which is only for today, and subject to change....

Pigeons are a very unique creatures, as no two are ever exactly alike. The concept of worth, or value, is a very subjective term. Let's for a moment, compare them to art, which people buy in order to place on their walls, because they like it....or they "Invest" in it, hoping that at some point, someone will pay them more then they paid for it. Who is to say what the value of a particular piece of art work is worth ? Turns out, that it is worth what a buyer and a seller agree to exchange it for.

Racing pigeons, are a bit like art, and a bit like Race Horses. A promising looking colt, with a very famous sire, can command many hundreds of thousands of dollars. And what are the buyers paying for, but a nice looking colt with a great pedigree. Does not mean it will be a great racer or a breeder, but many experienced horse people understand the value of a good pedigree.

I don't really have any idea what the real "value" or "worth" is of any of Mike's birds might be at any given moment. I have over the years purchased a number of birds with "GFL" bands on their legs. Both directly from Mike as YB's and on the secondary market. Some may have in hind site been over priced, and some as it turns out, were an absolute steal !

Now, digressing a bit back to art....I have seen pieces that many thousands of $$$'s were "Invested" into them....that I would not put into my house if you paid me !!! Let alone "Invest" any money into them. Were the people who paid $$$ for them all idiots ? Some of them turned into some very shrewd investments, which made the people who "Invested" in them look like *geniuses* not idiots. And, the same can be said about any number of racing pigeons. Turns out, in a number of cases, that some of the real idiots, were the people who did not see the real value. 

Same could be said of all transactions which occur every day on the New York Stock Exchange. I like this example, because I am a retired stock broker. On any given day, someone sells the stock of a company, because they no longer see the value any more, at the price they can sell it for. The buyer on the other hand, perceives value that the seller does not. Only the future can tell who made the better deal. At the time of the transaction, the market itself determines what the value is, based on the known facts. 

With Racing Pigeons, Art, Race Horses, Rare Coins, and many other special things in life. There is also a value, and worth, in the emotional satisfaction of owning something. Collectors are well aware of this. Very rare, and highly desirable works of art, or rare coins, or fine horses, vintage wines, and yes even racing pigeons....all can give tremendous personal satisfaction in simply owning them. 

So, just perhaps.....what you could be over looking, is the "satisfaction" value of owning a highly sought after GFL banded bird on a public auction. And I dare say, that quite possibly, the higher the price paid, the more satisfaction value, the buyer may get from it. Without understanding this very basic part of human nature, you won't understand or appreciate the prices offered for racing pigeons. I know that I myself, have gotten a lot more emotional satisfaction from going out to my loft everyday, and looking at my rare collection (that some people can only dream about ) then I have ever gotten from winning another diploma to place on the stack.

Turned out to be a big bucket of two cents....


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I agree totally ganus does have nice birds and he sells nice birds. He has some of the best pigeons in the world he is bound to get good ones. Some of the pigeons he has sold are super pigeons and have founded many lofts. The problem is that maybe 1 percent or less (probably alot less) are super pigeons and it don't matter if they cost $5 or $5000 the percentage may still be the same. So, alot of people put too much expectation into an expensive bird that has still that small percentage of being great.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> I agree totally ganus does have nice birds and he sells nice birds. He has some of the best pigeons in the world he is bound to get good ones. Some of the pigeons he has sold are super pigeons and have founded many lofts. The problem is that maybe 1 percent or less (probably alot less) are super pigeons and it don't matter if they cost $5 or $5000 the percentage may still be the same. So, alot of people put too much expectation into an expensive bird that has still that small percentage of being great.


 I agree a 100%, even really great, World Class fanciers, will often admit, that if they breed say 10-15% "Exceptional" birds in a year, that would be super duper. If you are going to purchase unproven YB's from Mike, you should purchase a couple dozen and then fly them. At the end of the season you can sort through them, and some % of those will make great breeders.


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## Brummie (Feb 16, 2009)

Seem's nobody has actualy touched on the handling of the pigeon.I've seen mediocre flyers buy an expensive bird, hopeing to be elevated to top of the race sheet. Only to be relugated to the bottom with their poor management.
You cannot make a winner out of a dud, it's far easier to make dud out of a winner.
I concur with Whitesnmore, you can find gem's from the "unknown flyer". One must also realize there are two types of flyers.Those that purchase big money bird's and hope it will give them a head start, and those that like to mature ther strain into winners. Nothing wrong with either...name of the game.
I question the word "idiot"? Regardless of our riche's. We are pigeon flyer's, first and foremost.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Brummie said:


> Seem's nobody has actualy touched on the handling of the pigeon.I've seen mediocre flyers buy an expensive bird, hopeing to be elevated to top of the race sheet. Only to be relugated to the bottom with their poor management.
> You cannot make a winner out of a dud, it's far easier to make dud out of a winner.
> I concur with Whitesnmore, you can find gem's from the "unknown flyer". One must also realize there are two types of flyers.Those that purchase big money bird's and hope it will give them a head start, and those that like to mature ther strain into winners. Nothing wrong with either...name of the game.
> I question the word "idiot"? Regardless of our riche's. We are pigeon flyer's, first and foremost.


 I agree, very good points. 

Let's not forget, that a major part of the fun, at least for me in this hobby, is the "tale talking" (or some more descriptive word) at the local pigeon club and "horse trading" with pigeon friends. I remember back in the "good ole days" when I first started in this game, a $1.50 was a big price to pay for a pigeon. Some of my first ones were so called "barn pigeons" that were purchased for .25 cents each at a farmers market. If nothing else, these auctions and the small talk it generates and the posts it generates, make for some interesting discussion. And how many of us, regardless of the amounts spent, can't honestly say, that some of the* best pigeons we have ever owned, were gifted or loaned pigeons, or birds traded for that didn't cost us even a dime?* And that applies to every fancier at every level, even the very greatest World Class Champions. 

Besides, there is not exactly a whole lot to do with my pigeons right now. I'm in the loft only about 4 times a day, and it's pretty cold out there.


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## Brummie (Feb 16, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I agree, very good points.
> 
> Let's not forget, that a major part of the fun, at least for me in this hobby, is the "tale talking" (or some more descriptive word) at the local pigeon club and "horse trading" with pigeon friends. I remember back in the "good ole days" when I first started in this game, a $1.50 was a big price to pay for a pigeon. Some of my first ones were so called "barn pigeons" that were purchased for .25 cents each at a farmers market. If nothing else, these auctions and the small talk it generates and the posts it generates, make for some interesting discussion. And how many of us, regardless of the amounts spent, can't honestly say, that some of the* best pigeons we have ever owned, were gifted or loaned pigeons, or birds traded for that didn't cost us even a dime?* And that applies to every fancier at every level, even the very greatest World Class Champions.
> 
> Besides, there is not exactly a whole lot to do with my pigeons right now. I'm in the loft only about 4 times a day, and it's pretty cold out there.


Well said Warren!Only trouble is, your making me think about my age...I remember those 25cent birds! And I question did I have more fun with them or my so called pedigreed birds?


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2009)

Brummie said:


> Well said Warren!Only trouble is, your making me think about my age...I remember those 25cent birds! And I question did I have more fun with them or my so called pedigreed birds?


I love hearing everything about old school pigeon people and pigeon keeping , the way I feel is its a lost art and old school people are the ones that really keep pigeon keeping real and going strong


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And how many of us, regardless of the amounts spent, can't honestly say, that some of the* best pigeons we have ever owned, were gifted or loaned pigeons, or birds traded for that didn't cost us even a dime?* And that applies to every fancier at every level, even the very greatest World Class Champions.
> 
> Besides, there is not exactly a whole lot to do with my pigeons right now. I'm in the loft only about 4 times a day, and it's pretty cold out there.


I personally have founded my loft on "gifted" pigeons blended with unknowns rescued from the butcher in addition to the well known flyers. Turns out the best hen I own is a gifted hen and the best cock is from the butcher that the owner cut the band off of prior to "sending to his demise" I agree Warren you never know where that super pigeon in your loft will come from. 
I have also found that some of the friends you make in this sport are some of the closest friends you will ever have. Nothing like BSing with a guy or gal from 100's of miles away for hours on end about our birds.

What your not breeding yet? I have my first eggs already.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

This thread stirs memories of that Sure Bet bird on ipigeon about a year ago. It posted for $30K, was sold to a fraudulent buyer, reposted, and "settled" for $17K. 

I aim for the "little lofts that could" who never advertise their birds. Their race records speak for themselves. In finding those little gems, is where the hidden value is revealed.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I race every year against guys in the club that spare no expense on birds. Imports, Sure Bets, Ganus, and all the "in" or "popular" breeds. What it comes down to is the guy that darkens his young birds, still is beating everyone else. He had 5 of the top 6 High points birds, champion loft, and average speed. I feel pretty good because my Hill Family mutt was second high points bird as a May youngster missing half its feathers through the race season. He was off a Vic Miller x Janssen x Engels x Bob Kinney x Delbar x Piet Valk bird off of youngsters off of four gift birds given to me by my mentor. The same direct family is responsible for 5 wins and many top 10% finishes in a very competitive club. Not to mention a few good showing in small futurities. 

I would take that 17K and buy me a good pick-up to haul my gift birds to the release point. 

Randy


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I race every year against guys in the club that spare no expense on birds. Imports, Sure Bets, Ganus, and all the "in" or "popular" breeds. What it comes down to is the guy that darkens his young birds, still is beating everyone else. He had 5 of the top 6 High points birds, champion loft, and average speed. I feel pretty good because my Hill Family mutt was second high points bird as a May youngster missing half its feathers through the race season. He was off a Vic Miller x Janssen x Engels x Bob Kinney x Delbar x Piet Valk bird off of youngsters off of four gift birds given to me by my mentor. The same direct family is responsible for 5 wins and many top 10% finishes in a very competitive club. Not to mention a few good showing in small futurities.
> 
> I would take that 17K and buy me a good pick-up to haul my gift birds to the release point.
> 
> Randy



Only one person in your club darkens young birds? Wow, why spend all the money on the best and not improve your method/system? I would assume if one person were the only one darkning or using some tpye of system in any club they would be winning alot of races. I guess that goes back to the old saying "If you can't beat em, join em."


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> This thread stirs memories of that Sure Bet bird on ipigeon about a year ago. It posted for $30K, was sold to a fraudulent buyer, reposted, and "settled" for $17K.
> 
> I aim for the "little lofts that could" who never advertise their birds. Their race records speak for themselves. *In finding those little gems, is where the hidden value is revealed*.


 Well....

I can't disagree with that. 

It's like in horse racing, and trying to find a colt that the owner has yet to see the value in his own stock, and you attempt to steal it away from him, in old fashioned horse trading. Hoping you can turn your $2500 race horse investment into one of those Racing Champions which is syndicated for $100 Million. Buying the unknown, has the greatest risk, and thus the greater reward. The colt for $1.5 Million may have better odds at winning races, and thus the pay off on money invested is not as great. 

It also provides a thrill, perhaps akin to scouring the pink sheets of thousands of penny stocks, hoping to find that little unnoticed gem which will turn you into a Warren Buffet or Bill Gates in a few months. The risk is very great, and chances are you will lose, but the rewards can be very great also. Invest in investment grade blue chip companies, which pay increasing dividends, and you might not get rich, and it's less exciting, you simple deposit the steady cash returns. 

Just IMHO, it typically has taken very great skill from a Grand Master Pigeon Fancier who has the great gift and ability to see the markings of a great champion pigeon when he happens to come into the room of such a bird. Grand Masters have a much greater ability in selecting, then does the typical fancier. And he has a much better opportunity to visit and inspect the lofts where those little gems are stored. That's partly how he or she got to where they are. From my perspective, I would rather expend some resources into gaining his help and expertise, rather then competing against him in finding gems in unknown lofts, after all, he is more of an expert then I am. Of course I am like that with my car, I don't attempt to repair or maintain my vehicle, I hire the expert. It may cost me some more up front, but whenever I can, I surround myself with people who are smarter then me when it comes to a particular subject. For me, this also, applies to pigeons. When you find good help, you have to pay them.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Warren makes the case well. But I will add my two cents anyway.

First of all. I started out. when I was a simpleton, buying pedigrees and assuming that was the way to go. Because everyone said to buy the best you could afford and go from there.

That was not necessarily a mistake, as I am satisfied with my birds performances.

However, we all want to do better. I have decided to no longer buy pedigrees, but instead to obtain birds that have proven themselves in races. Not children or grand children of racers. But actual racers.

I am attempting to only have race winners in my loft, and let them pick their own mates. It may work out and it may not, but my guess is that it will be a little better than buying wondrous pedigrees.

But back to Warrens first posting.

There is something wonderful about having a German Shepherd dog that is a distant relative of Rin Tin Tin. It doesn't have to be a show winner or Schutzhund winner. Just "linked" to a famous and arguably a great dog. There is that satisfaction of ownership, even if it never comes and tells me that there is a boy trapped in a well down the road.

Art, collectibles, autographed pictures, or what have you. The have a value in jus owning them. Even ugly art by Elvis, would be a treasure. I would give 500 bucks to have a direct decendant of Cher Ami in my loft (if it could be proven within a reasonable amount of certainty). If it never won a race or bred anything that raced well. I would still like one.

But, the point made by the original poster is a valid one I believe. Stock your breeding loft with race performers and not with names or pedigrees, and you will probably do better. But In my humble opinion, any decent pair of racing pigeons can and do produce great birds. I believe consistent winning is more influenced by handling and not so much by lineage. I believe in young and old birds, that systems such as darkening, the light system, and other methods of control and motivation, will produce winners more often than the "natural way".

Yet, I fly the natural way.................Go figure.........


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Warren makes the case well. But I will add my two cents anyway.
> 
> First of all. I started out. when I was a simpleton, buying pedigrees and assuming that was the way to go. Because everyone said to buy the best you could afford and go from there.
> 
> ...


I like your post, as you may have articulated my own thoughts better then I could. 

But,..........the reason why most people end up buying the "Pedigree" in the first place, is because they can't afford to buy the winning racer in the first place. You might be able to buy a club winner or a combine winner, but the greater the importance placed on the particular race or races, the more value attached to the particular Winner. So, if you can't afford to buy the $50,000 winner, you might just settle for one of his or her offspring, at much less money. You will notice, if a pigeon turns out to be a great racer or a great breeder, then very little attention is paid to that bird's pedigree. Ludo Claessen once took in a stray and produced some winners out of it, and then sold it to Mike Ganus, who sells offspring for $3000 each. See: http://ganusfamilyloft.com/goldenwitten2.htm as you can imagine, not a lot of pedigree history there. 

So at the end of the day, I am not so sure people are really trying to buy a "Pedigree", I think that is a misnomer. They are simply trying to get closer to the genetic tree, which has produced winners. So, we have now come full circle, you can buy the actual winner, which will cost the most money, and there is of course no guarantee it will produce, or you can buy a nest mate like I often do, or you can buy an offspring from the Big Winner. Or....another option....is to acquire winners further down the scale, such as a Combine winner, or your local club winner. Or still further down the line...of buying offspring from the Combine winner, or even the club winner...in which case you are back to "buying a pedigree", but at that point, you are in a very affordable area....maybe the cost of a bag of feed or two. 

If the cost of a bag of feed, is what you can afford to spring for some new promising blood to improve your breeding colony, then it's going to be a very long, uphill climb, unless someone along the way gifts you a bird you could not afford to purchase on your own. Or, as my loft manager Lewis Burns has said on a number of occasions, it is often easier to breed a good bird, then it is to find one in which to acquire, regardless of the price. And I suspect there is an element of truth in that statement, because really World Class Quality, is not going to be available at a real cheap price, unless the owner is simply ignorant of what they own. Because people typically don't sell what they own for a fraction of the market price, unless you have a very distressed seller.

So, it's possible I suppose, for one to buy and sort through hundreds of $25 or whatever birds, and hope that one of them is some great undiscovered gem. I am sure it has happened. But, my personal experience has been that every "good" pigeon that I have ever owned, also had a fair number of "good" pigeons close by in their family tree. And if I had room for one more "good" pigeon in my breeding loft, and I had to pick from two available, and my choice was A) A "Good" racer which had numerous relatives which were also distinguished winners. Or..... B) A "Good" racer, which from every indication, came from a family tree of very average or typical racing pigeons.....I would go with bird A, which has come from a close family of winners. Perhaps that is buying into the concept, that the lineage of a race bird has an impact, and so I guess I am in that camp.

Everyone has to start somewhere. But, if after a half dozen or dozen years, your breeding loft is full of non-winners and/or producers of all non-winners, then that begs the question....why ? And if at that point, your breeding loft is full of race winners and/or producers of winners, then what exactly is one to do in order to move up to the next level ? Except to acquire something that is superior to anything you currently own, and exactly how is one to do that, when every other fancier in theory, is attempting to do the same thing ? And the better your birds are, the more difficult (and expensive) it can be to try to locate and then acquire that bird, which just might take you to that next genetic level.

PS Whitesmore, I just saw your post, yes of course my birds are down on eggs, but it is cold outside, so my latest thing, is I have become a film maker. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjMAu1hs2og


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I believe that buying combine winners is a good way to go. I am actually trying to fill my loft with Combine Birds of the Year, as my plan. You can get them for 3 to 400 bucks a pop. I think that 25K for a bird is never going to happen for me, but also that it is not necessary for success. I am not racing in Florida nor Belgium, therefore the competition is not of those calibers. I don't mind spending money on my birds, but I do have my limits. After all. I have had a bird fall over dead for no apparent reason. I actually had a veterian try to determine the cause of death on a four year old cock bird and he surmised it to be a heart attack. Bad things can and do happen. I could not take the "hit" of spending five grand on a bird and having a bad thing happen. There are robbers, unruly kids, predators and several other things that could happen. Disease can be brought into a loft from other racers birds mingling with mine. Or from wild birds.

Anyway, I like your video. I have a few questions if I may Warren.

Is the "no bander" a Ludo that you could have raced, but was unable to, due to him removing his band?

Are the greens in the video cauliflower, and is it raw?

How come there ain't snow in Pa. in winter?  I used to live 11 miles from Pa. in northeast Ohio (Orwell), and I got sick of the snow. I moved south a bit (Cincinnati), and now I have snow here and you don't up there.  I can't win for losing.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> I believe that buying combine winners is a good way to go. I am actually trying to fill my loft with Combine Birds of the Year, as my plan. You can get them for 3 to 400 bucks a pop. I think that 25K for a bird is never going to happen for me, but also that it is not necessary for success. I am not racing in Florida nor Belgium, therefore the competition is not of those calibers. I don't mind spending money on my birds, but I do have my limits. After all. I have had a bird fall over dead for no apparent reason. I actually had a veterian try to determine the cause of death on a four year old cock bird and he surmised it to be a heart attack. Bad things can and do happen. I could not take the "hit" of spending five grand on a bird and having a bad thing happen. There are robbers, unruly kids, predators and several other things that could happen. Disease can be brought into a loft from other racers birds mingling with mine. Or from wild birds.
> 
> Anyway, I like your video. I have a few questions if I may Warren.
> 
> ...


Well we got some snow now !!!! 

The greens are broccoli.

Yes, the No Bander is a full Ludo Claessen based bird, he is a second generation from Originals and highly inbred. 307 ancestors are recorded, he has 45 common ancestors, Ludo's original "Fokstier" NL 238915-74 shows up 12 times in his pedigree over 8 generations, The famous "Vos 54" shows up 10 times in his pedigree. I had sent him on regular road training with all the other members of the YB team, and based on the number of times he was 1st to loft in his road work, I determined that he was worth something as breeding stock, but I allowed myself to get talked out of him. This year I purchased this 2006 bird back, because his road training performance still bugs me to this day. One of those "What If" I had checked his leg band again...kind of stories...


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Warren,

I love the video. This is my first time to see a "live" Ludo birds. LOL! Thanks!


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

That 1st average speed bird from charm city race went for 9000 bucks! Oh my!


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

It is important to look at a pedigree, and look only for the parents performance, NOT two or three generations back.Unless you KNOW that the offsping of that pair HAVE preformed. Pedigrees are a tool, but they must be used wisely. Dave


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## Brummie (Feb 16, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> It is important to look at a pedigree, and look only for the parents performance, NOT two or three generations back.Unless you KNOW that the offsping of that pair HAVE preformed. Pedigrees are a tool, but they must be used wisely. Dave


I brought a Staffordshire Bull Terrier back home, on his pedigree. Great looking dog.In standard at all point's.
Found out later, that the pedigree had been "faked". Unless your out to make a few buck's, or want it for your own personal enjoyment. Pedigree's ain't worth the paper ther written on.
There are exception's. The person you know.


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