# Sick bird



## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Have an Indian Fantail that will eat , but feels emaciated . When it ate , it would go to a corner of the loft and sit with its head towards the wall . It was not holding its tail up . I have isolated the bird and started giving the Foy's 4 and 1 in its water . Tomorrow will be the sixth day of isolation and treatment . It is drinking and eating , poop is still runny . Not sure what else to do . Any suggestions ? I ordered some 4 and 1 capsules as I was told it was easier to treat a single sick bird with the capsule . Should I continue beyond the recommended 7 day treatment and go to 14 days , and when the capsules arrive should I replace the treated water and just give the capsule ? I have pro-biotics to give after treatment also . Any information would be appreciated . Its eyes and cere are clear . I have seen worse scours , its cloaca is not real messy with poo . What got my attention was the bird was isolating itself . None of the other birds are presenting any symptoms . All appear to be happy and healthy . And its mouth has no sores .


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kathy's Loft,


Can you post some images of the Bird? And, of some of their fresh poops?


Phil
Lv


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

pdpbison ,

I can this evening when I get in from work


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Problem with 'X-in-1" meds is that their suspensions are too diluted to really whomp an illness which has already progressed and gotten hold.

I am assuming you have checked for canker (which there shouldn't be since it's a closed aviary/loft). 

So the next most likely maladies would be either coccidia or worms...both parasitical. 

Coccidia is treated best with Appartex (clazuril); while worms would be treated with either Ivermectin (for most common) or Praziquantel + Oxfenbendazole combo (more of a wide-net)...both being available thru Jedd's or Foy's.

Best thing, of course, is to get a fecal test from an avian vet (although damn coccidia has a tendency to post negative in a test while it is still there...supposedly because the coccidia doesn't always shed in every stool). This would eliminate guesswork.

However, with either med they're one-dose-repeat-in-a-few-days sorta stuff, so it's not like they would do harm if the illnesses were neither...

Could also be a gut infection, in which case something like Doxycycline would be in order....but I would turn over the first two stones before going to that....


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Jaye , can I give the Ivermectin along with the 4 and 1 . The 4 and 1 is , 1 tsp per 1gallon of water . Don't have any Doxycycline . No canker already checked that . Thanks !


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye is right in that the 4 in 1's don't really do much. Not enough of each med in them. 
As far as canker, just because they are isolated, doesn't mean that they don't get canker. Canker is caused by stress. That can be from anything. Over crowding, racing, breeding. Even introducing new birds to the loft. Change in seasons can even cause stress.When your birds are stressed, it causes the trichomonad levels to rise, causing canker.

Have you checked way down your birds throat? Are there any cheesy growths down there, which could indicate canker. The thing is that canker doesn't always show that way. Their throat could be clear and they could still have it in another form.

Is he drinking more than normally? Penguin posture? Can you post a picture of him and how he is holding himself?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is part of an article by Dr. Colin Walker

Depending on what stresses the birds are under, trichomonad levels will rise and fall. When high, they have a typical parasitic effect, weakening the bird, in the process creating a vulnerability to secondary infection (particularly respiratory infection) and compromising race performance. They also produce a toxin that makes the birds feel unwell.

Birds with elevated trichomonad levels are said to have 'wet canker'. Signs of infection can be subtle and quite varied.

Typical signs that would alert the fancier to its possible presence include:

1. 'Penguin' posture - Associated with proventricular (glandular stomach) and crop pain. Birds will lean back on their tails and gulp. Noticed particularly after eating and drinking.

2. 'Dry feather' - Due to lack of down feather drop and bloom production.

3. 'Leady' feel - Affected birds will not come into condition and feel heavy in the hand.

4. Wet dropping - Inflammation in the digestive tract creates a thirst, leading to elevated water intake and urine production. This produces a clear watery rim around the dropping.

5. Green droppings - Due to digestive tract irritation and in some birds decreased food intake.

6. Inflammation in the throat - Tonsillitis and increased clear to grey bubbly mucus.

7. Interference with crop function - Delayed crop emptying and sometimes vomiting.

8. Increased food consumption by team as a whole

9. Dry yellow canker - In birds of any age, this tells you that many other birds have elevated trichomonad levels, which have not yet passed the threshold for yellow material to form.

10. Indirect signs - Poor loft flying, poor tossing, respiratory problems that respond poorly to medication or quickly relapse, a dramatic improvement in the birds' general vigour in response to anticanker medication are all suggestive.

Definitive diagnosis, however, depends on microscopic examination of a crop flush. Microscopic changes that are suggestive of the problem also develop in the dropping,. These changes are associated with the stress of the disease and include elevated E. coli and yeast levels. These changes, however, do not occur in all birds.

http://fowlfacts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medshhh&action=print&thread=167


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Droppings are green and watery and it stands and looks like a humpback whale , since it will not hold the tail up . Indian Fantail we are talking about . How much wazine to a gallon of water to worm the flock . No one else is presenting any symptoms . All look healthy . Just noticed this one staying on the floor last weekend and isolated and started the 4 and 1 , being knew to this , wanted to have something on hand for all if i needed to treat the whole flock . Didn't get a 4and1capsule to treat individual bird . Have that en route . That's all I have in stock except for the pro biotics , oh and the .05% Ivermectine . So many meds , was trying to get something that targeted the major or most common , if you will , illnesses . No stress , clean loft , fresh water everyday . Plenty of outdoor sunshine , flight is 10x10x6 and no over crowding . About 10 birds . Pigeon pellet , oyster and red grit .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Very emaciated , sternum very pronounced , looked into throat no sores or inflammation . Fresh medicated water and two drops of .05 ivermectin was given , cloaca area is clean ??????????


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You may think there is no stress, but canker is very common, and it doesn't take much. Stress is only one thing that will elevate the trichomonads. I would treat for canker. You can probably get Fish Zole at a tropical fish store. But it has got to be just Metronidazole. Or you can get Metronidazole or Fish Zole from a pigeon supply.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Kath'y Loft, you need to bring the bird inside, keep him in a cage with a heating pad set on LOW, that is covered with a towel. Put the bird on this. You probably think it's warm there, but a sick bird needs supplemental heat. 
A bird that debilitated shouldn't be wormed unless you know that he has an infestation of worms, which you don't know. Being that debilitated, worming can kill him. 

I don't think you understand canker, but most pigeons are born with trichomonads, and it doesn't take much to cause a full blown outbreak. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean that it isn't there. And having a closed loft/aviary has nothing to do with it.

After you bring him inside, you are going to have to feed him. Run frozen peas under hot water until they thaw and warm. Hold the bird on your lap, and against your body. Open his beak and pop in a pea, pushing it to the back of the throat. He will swallow it. I don't know the weight of your bird, but if it is an adult, you could start with 30 peas a feeding, a few times a day, then go to 40 to 50 peas a few times a day. Make sure he is drinking, which he probably is.
And I would treat him for canker.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree that canker may be an underlying problem with your bird....99% of pigeons are born with the parasite that causes canker. It's impossible to eradicate completely, which is why most of us treat our pigeons occasionally for canker. The pigeons do tolerate the parasite unless they are stressed for some reason and the stress is enough for the parasite to take over, causing canker outbreak. Stress to a bird could be something as simple as a weather change, going to a new home, mating, feeding babies, etc.
Canker can take different forms and so if the pigeon has the internal form, one can't tell if canker is present by looking in the throat. It sounds like your pigeon is showing one of the classic symptoms of the penguin pose that Jay3 posted in post #7. It would be a good idea to review that post carefully to see if there are other symptoms you may not have noticed.
If your bird were to arrive at my house for rehab. The first thing I would do would be to set him up in a cage with supplemental heat. I use heating pad set on the low setting. Birds that are sick need supplemental heat because even though it may be hot outside, they are unable to regulate their body temperature. I can relate. I have the flu right now and even though it's warm enough in my house, I am freezing cold.
The other good thing about bringing your bird inside is that you will be able to monitor behavior such as weather the birds is eating, drinking and what the poop looks like.
It doesn't sound like you have a lot of time remaining with this pigeon and so you do need to act quickly on the birds behalf and that would mean hand feeding. At least getting some nourishment into the bird may buy some time.
Perhaps you can find this medicine in an aquarium store near you...

http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=oRTgTffaGMTiiALL8JDlCg&ved=0CFYQ8wIwBA#

If you can't find it...order it ASAP. Do not use the directions for fish. I would give 1/8 th of a pill to begin and a drop of pepto bismo before hand to avoid vomiting.
Perhaps when you are beyond this experience we can give you suggestions for a first aid kit for your pigeons. The 3 in 1 is worthless....a waste of money.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Foy's has it for $20.99.
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/534.html
Of course it would have to be over-nighted, as he needs treatment ASAP.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This is even better... they are right there in Lousiana.

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-canker.html

Metronidazolum Tablets - 60 mg tablets for the individual treatment of canker. Same as Flagyl tablets. One tablet per day per bird for four days.

The Siegel Company 
1711 Main Street 
Jeanerette, LA 
70544 
USA 




100 tablets 
$22.95
Item #5749
SW 1.20 lbs


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

That's not a bad idea...go with Metronidazole (or use Ronidazole if Metro cannot be found) and also a dose of Appartex, too....although the priority is one of the "idazole"s.

I agree w/ Charis....you should act quickly in beginning meds and also in handfeeding. These become a negative-feedback loop: Pigeon feels sick so stops eating/drinking...stopping eating/drinking weakens the Pigeon so an infection gets upper hand...infection grabs hold and makes Pigeon weak and unable to nourish him/herself, etc....etc, etc.

Getting nourishment into your pal via handfeeding....and keeping him/her isolated and on heat, should help considerably while you await meds. 

Keep in mind, if there's any way you can...get the Metronidazole or Ronidazole meds started in next 24 hours.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

PigeonTalk was down late yesterday and I had other things to do . First of all I want to genuinely thank those of you that have responded . I have done as suggested , gonna have to wait on the Fish Zole till Monday at the latest . Been giving warm pedialyte by syringe to re-hydrate and help electrolytes . Bird is a little more perky after doing this . Give the 4&1 by syringe just to make sure it is getting a dose . Have been feeding warm chick starter via syringe also . Poops are no longer runny , but green with a white topping if you will . Am going to get the peas asap and start doing that .Thank you each and everyone , I feel that with ya'lls help we have turned a corner however small it may be . Aggravated I was told by a reputable source that the 4&1 would cover all . Thank you , I really mean it !!!!!! Ya'll are great people .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

My bird died today . I feel so bad that I couldn't do more . I did what everyone recommended . Now I doubt my abilities to keep , enjoy and raise pigeons . I gave my best but it wasn't good enough . Was told by the EXPERT sellers that 4and1 meds are just fine . lol ..yeah I am venting ..... if the crap doesn't work quit pushing it on us newbies .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sorry you lost the bird. What would be helpful is reading up on the common pigeon illnesses, and starting a first aid kit containing the things most often needed. That way you would recognize sooner when a bird needs help, and what the illness might be, and what to treat with. And you would already have that med on hand. Sometimes that makes all the difference in the world. I'm really sorry he passed.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

What is a good basic supply of medicines to have on hand , to treat individually and as a flock ? I have Wazine for worming and the 4and1 crap , guess I will toss that in the garbage . The equivalent to Fish Zole , bath salts for their baths , Nolvalsan for cleaning , and pro biotics . You helped so much and I thank you . I did everything you and cpalmer instructed me to do . I have some Baytril coming via a friend also .


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just was working on a list for you and it disappeared when I was switching between windows gathering links form supply places. I will re-do this afternoon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just to mention that you should rotate meds for Canker, Worms and Cocci. Every few times switch to a second med, so the bacteria don't build up an immunity. You can start with one med for each, and later on buy a second one. That way you can go back and forth between them every once in a while. You don't need to get everything all at once. It takes time. Charis will stare you in the right direction.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

As a wormer, Modectin Plus can be used for flock treatment or as an individual treatment. The directions for each kind of treatment, is on the bottle. Individual treatment is best because then you know each bird is getting the right amount of wormer and the wormer will last longer.
Get yourself a kitchen scale that measures in gram weights so that you can dose sick birds correctly.
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-Australian.html


For canker, you need two products so you can rotate them. Again, individual treatment is best if you don’t have a lot of pigeons. Spartrex and metroniodazolum are on in this link. With severe canker, often both medications are necessary.
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-canker.html
Enroflaxyn…antibiotic for individual treatment. Please note…depending on the size of the bird, you may need to give more than one pill. With antibiotics in this class, I give it once a day rather than twice.
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-ecoli.html

For individual or flock treatment…Parastop
http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_56&products_id=575


For coccidiosis…
http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-Coccidiosis-cln-Diclazuril/Categories.bok
Cocci-geel
http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_56&products_id=129


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Thank you Jay3 and Charis !!!!!!!!!!


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