# Color, and it's Role in 2013 Breeding Plan



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

OK, the thought occurred to me, based on recent "what is the best" white, grizzle, etc. number of threads, that some of us, may have been secretly using color as part of selection process all along ! 

My question is, how many are now willing to step forward, and admit, that for the 2013 breeding season, at least one pair of your breeders are being paired together because of a number of things, one of them being color ?

I confess, that my partner and loft manager has been biased towards blue bars for as long as I have known him. I dare say 95% of his breeders are blue bar. And this year, I will confess, I have paired some together this year, in order to avoid pairing red to red, and to produce more T-Pattern or Velvet's in red and blue. And since I am coming clean, a few were paired Red Velvet to Blue Velvet to avoid producing pigeons homozygous for red, or soon I will own nothing other then red. And with only five breeding pairs for this years project, I even managed to put a pair of blue velvet/T-pattern together. 

I started innocently enough, simply attempting to produce fewer light colored silver's after I saw feather condition deteriorate rapidly after a few races. Without giving a bunch of conscious thought to it, I would instinctively breed lighter colored birds to darker colored ones, and would avoid retaining such light colored silvers or red checks for breeders. Without thinking about it, or even being aware of it, my subconscious mind was "preferring" some birds over others, based on what my eyes could see. And thus white flighted birds, or those with little pigment in those flight feathers, were passed over in favor of darker shades. Or if these birds were exceptional breeders, they were paired to darker patterns. 

Now, in defense of my actions, I can give a convincing argument for every pairing, other then color. But, the mischievous truth is, I have listened to a kid I have been giving a bit more free rein to. I found him sitting with me watching my pigeons one day, and as I listened to him talk, I realised that it sounded some how eerily familiar. 

Anyway, I guess I was just susceptible to his question of "What's the worst that could happen" ? And I guess all I could mumble was....I end up with a bunch of pretty pigeons ? And I am pretty sure I heard him say "Exactly".Now, that is what happened, that is my story, and I am sticking to it. The wife claims I was in the yard by myself the whole time and that I need to have my medication adjusted again. I digress in how this "Selection on Color" was arrived at, but that is what I am going with.

I have reservations that 2013 will produce anything extraordinary, in terms of racing performance, but I am wagering that among those who have a special little place in their "likes" for a pretty Red or Blue Velvet, that some could win a prize in the Show arena, under the "Racing Homer" category, I am much more confident of such a "winner". 

So, are there more of you out there ? Who are planning a pairing, or two, just for the heck of it ?


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## grunt45 (Jan 24, 2012)

I am just getting started so I have a limited number of breeders to choose from. If I had a red cock and red hen it would be very difficult to not pair them based on color, since the reds are my favorite. Of course I would have to try them because what's the worst that can happen? I get to watch for a round or two of beautiful reds to fly in while the rest of the race team is already resting.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

WOW, never expected that admittion. 

Yes I will have to admit that I don't always put my pairs together simpley based on best peroformance and that I have a fondness for the reds myself. 

I dont normally start breeding untill the old birds series is over so I havent put any birds together yet for 2013. However I have found over the years of breeding that I tend to place pairs together that will have the highest percentage of giving me the colors that I want.

This is not the primary factor for placing the pairs together. but when it comes down to two birds of equal or near equal abilities and performance why not get the colors you like or prefer out of the youngsters. Then even if your not paying attention before long your best performance birds are also your best show birds or at least your favorite colors.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I try and force myself to not care what color my pairings are. But I have caught myself pairing blacks with blacks, a time or two. If I have choices from which to pair up. I tend to put a black with a black, for that coloration.

The rest I do not care about coloration. With the exception that I do not like pairing a solid white to anything, for racing purposes. I just do not care for white racing pigeons. I do like white homing pigeons though, for white dove release purposes.

Best pedigree to the best pedigree is currently what I do. It should be best racer to best racer, of course. But I do not breed from my racers, yet. Most of my breeders are prisoners.

Of course, over time, that will change. I will eventually only breed best racer to best racer.

This is because I got back into the sport four years ago, after a long absence. None of my racers have impressed me enough to breed from them.

(which says something about my pedigreed breeders, I guess)


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Out of my 40 breeders, 38 are BB or BC. Three of those are splash birds. I have one red bird that is being paired to its cousin. Not being color bred at all. Then there is my one Grizzle bird. The only bird I am pairing for its color. She would still be in the program if she was not Grizzle. She will be paired to a Blue bird because that are my only choices. 
How the grizzle bird came about was that I always wanted a grizzle bird. I was at a fancier's loft that flies my birds and wanted a young bird off a bird of mine that had a few top 10 finishes and finished the 500mile old bird race. He showed me the bird and its mate and I saw that she was a grizzle bird. One of the young birds was also grizzle. I asked him to breed me a grizzle off the pair. He had filled me in on the results off the pair earlier in the year. He went into the loft and brought out the "18" bird that he had discussed results with me. She was off the pair and happened to be grizzle. He handed her to me and said, "here ya go"
Thus I am now starting my grizzle program. A bird that was off my bloodline crossed with a very successful grizzle bird. Color breeding by chance I suppose.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think I like the challenge of trying to breed a grizzle family that flies just as well as my other birds. I think BB are also my favorite color of birds. I do like dark checks. I think I like the look of the bird before the color. As far as look, the grizzle I brought home is not the best looking pigeon in the loft. But neither is her great grandfather, the best breeding cock in my loft. If the bird wins it is great looking to me.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

I guess I don't count since I do not race, except for sending birds to several one loft races. I admit that I love color. I am entering my 3rd winter of raising birds. I always pair my birds based on color and thier pedigreed racing backgroud or how they have performed on my training tosses out to 150 miles. I breed with the specific purpose of avoiding blue bars and blue checks. And, having raised about 50 young birds over the last two years, I can say that I have only produced 2 blue bars and one blue check. I may begin racing in the next couple years, although I would be on the long end of the nearest club by nearly 50 miles. If I had a dream, it would be to develop my current lines of Indigo-Opals and Recessive Reds into competitive racing lines. My breeding stock for both of these lines come from some very good lines of successful racers and some of my young have held their own in one loft races.

Jim


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Stick to your Plan.Your birds are from Racing lines,and your birds you say have held their own in one loft races.Sounds like you're already having success to a degree..You still race even if you only send birds to one loft races.Your project is interesting.And your plan seems to be coming together.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm breeding from 28 pairs next year.

14 are racing pigeons, the other 14 are white homing pigeons.

I intend to breed at least 2 rounds from every pair. The young birds from the racing pigeons will be raced, the young birds from the white homing pigeons will be trained out to 60 miles. I will see which white homers can make it back home. These will be used in 2014 for dove releases. The white homer young birds that survive, I will look back into the breeding records and take out the breeders whose yb's did not come back home "well".

I will do the same for eliminating racing pigeon breeders after the race season. 

Basically eliminate some birds that will be serving as breeders for 2013, and add any young birds that flew really well into the breeding program for 2014.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I have yet to base a single pairing on color. But to tell you the truth, if I ever had to quit racing, I'd still raise homers and I would do it for color. The few grizzles and reds in my loft are quite nice to look at. My favorite color is the clean, light blue bar with nice dark bars. My least favorite is the red checks. Love the red bars, though. I have a red mottle that was lost in a YB race and has claimed my loft as her new home. She is quite striking, too. But I won't breed from her until I know what she can do. Or if I do breed from her, it would be for my daughter to race (have to encourage it any way I can!).


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

To me it is interesting how few black pigeons one sees in competition, and even fewer at the top of the race sheet. Perhaps it is because people are not generally enthused about the color? They are simply a blue based bird with the spread gene, and I would think that with all the blue bars and blue checks there would be more black and competitive black birds.
I don't have any and have not bred for it, although I do like the color. I think that a really good black is striking.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

We all know for a fact It is not the color that wins a race. It boils down to the bird, that day. Blue family birds are far more in numbers then the other colors. THAT and THAT alone is why they win more races.. A person with ANY SKILLS in breeding and racing pigeons should by all reasons be able to breed a colored bird And birds, THAT will compete and win races. IF NOT then I would say the skill level of breeding is rather low In the persons program. AND a person can take the best they own and put that into there color program also. EVEN doing a late hatch program. would work. SURE SOME known colors are infact not as good for certion races PAST THE 250 mark. because feathers are just to soft. YES first is building a quality loft. But as a side program color can be used as tool to help progress THOSE lesser reconized colors. I have said it before. If a bird was pink with yellow polka dots and won races PEOPLE would want those birds. . So as a challenge in loft management towards breeding It would make good sence For a person liking different colored birds To work towards there improvement. And God knows when they see some wins others will come running. to get some.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*from "Confessions of a Pigeon Breeder"...*

Not sure even the topic of "the role of color in selection process" even means the same thing to everybody. In addition to the hundred other things we breed for, such as a hearty immune system, homing ability, etc. the quality of the feather I would think, would be a logical part of selection process. 

I am fairly certain, that the founder of my strain, was motivated by those traits which his winning racers possessed. Now the fact that I might admire one pigment type over another, may or may not have any bearing on race performance. If one prefers one shade over another, as the designer of these gene packages, one can pretty much do as one pleases. 

For illustration purposes, just wanted to show some of the colors which manifest themselves within this genetic line. Specifically, the T-pattern towards Velvet and the base color red and blue. There are of course other colors within the line, but as I soon discovered, once one pairs a red to a blue like these, you end up producing more of the same. 

By taking color into consideration, I hope to avoid a situation where the other colors end up ceasing to exist. Ludo introduced a single red Horemans cock bird into his colony in the 1970's and it impacted his colors for decades until his retirement. I am already about half this color, so to not try to manage it, is the same as saying I will only keep red pigeons. Which is why, right or wrong, why some will not allow a red pigeon into their lofts for this exact reason.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

In order to stay under five paragraphs.......I broke this into two posts, now you have an idea what I am talking about. Blue Velvet and Red Velvet types. No longer have produced a silver in a long time.


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## grunt45 (Jan 24, 2012)

I am hoping this carries the thread further instead of taking it over. This thread along with some others has me dreaming of owning some lightning fast reds When breeding for a specific color what is the biggest challenge? Do you need a separate loft to really monitor the pairs? The obvious answer seems to be acquire a pair of reds that are better than anything you have and breed a lot from them. Is there more to it than that?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren Sounds like you are trying to regulate Your red birds. So they do not over take your birds in color. That is different then seting and controling A chosen color. With your birds looking at PEDIGREE, And select breeding you can regulate. BUT as you breed the family in relation You increase the hidden color of red. So Red over BLUE in bar or check. BUT as the family line gets tighter. You would have to out cross the line To regulate the color. BUT that does not mean you must out cross the group line. Meaning LUDO birds just use Pedigree. and ludo birds That carry less of the red. But when needed out cross. That is if I am understanding what you have said right..


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Is there anymore information about pigment and lack there of, and how it effects the feathers. If more pigment is a plus, then why would keepers NOT breed darker birds? maybe there are not enough of them that are worthy?


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## switchbackmat69 (Mar 31, 2012)

all my birds are breed for color as I don't race or compete with anything but the ferals. I'm kinda looking for some homers just don't realy want them quite yet. want to buy a clock first. but yeah everything I breed is for color or a certain feture.


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## calmcool410 (Mar 17, 2010)

Question? I have tipplers .If i pair a yellow cock to a blue hen can u tell me what color i will get...I had all blues (hughs) , i introduced a yellow lovatt cock recently...The blue and yellow are sitting on eggs now...I cant wait  i hopeing u will tell me what colors i will get?.....Thankyou....I see u are here alot and is a smart guy....I read alot of your post...Thanks again


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> Warren Sounds like you are trying to regulate Your red birds. So they do not over take your birds in color. That is different then seting and controling A chosen color. With your birds looking at PEDIGREE, And select breeding you can regulate. BUT as you breed the family in relation You increase the hidden color of red. So Red over BLUE in bar or check. BUT as the family line gets tighter. You would have to out cross the line To regulate the color. BUT that does not mean you must out cross the group line. Meaning LUDO birds just use Pedigree. and ludo birds That carry less of the red. But when needed out cross. That is if I am understanding what you have said right..


 Yes Robert, you are correct. Red as you know, being the most dominant color, there does not have to be very many foundation breeders of this color, within a closely bred line, before it is totally dominate within the loft. 

I also want to clarify my statements concerning feather quality and "silvers". I should have been much more specific, as with many things, it is one of relative degrees. I was specifically referring to a few individual birds which were very lite silvers. As everyone knows, Silver Boy was a famous breeder. One of his son's, a red bar, produced $160,000 World Challenge Race winner, I think it was 2007. Now, these birds became famous because of breeding, not racing. I am breeding from a red bar almost strawberry hen for 2013, as she has a race record I liked. With a few very lite silvers or red bars that I owned, relative to say the reds which have pigment extended along the tips, or those more darker blue pigment, for me, the feathers just held up better after a 1000+ miles of training and racing, and with longer important races yet to go. 

So, to keep feathers relatively darker, have when all else is equal, given the nod towards the darker colored birds. There are colors within my loft, from other branches of Family Tree so I am thinking I can postpone the complete red dominance over entire family line for at least a decade or more. Within this particular branch of family however, I think the color red is starting to become, good, bad, or indifferent, set. The more times that red pigeons show up on both sides of the pedigree, the greater the odds the offspring will be red. And once you pair red to red, breeders homozygous for Ash Red will eventually find their way into the breeding program, and then there will be almost no turning back from red. 

I like red, but to the degree possible, I want to manage the process. Color has thus become a consideration in the selection process. On the one hand to create ideal feather, and because I also just happen to like the deep blue velvet colors that these reds sometimes throw. 

For those interested in background of this red line : http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoHistory2.htm

"DE VOSKES" 
And then we come to what Ludo calls his best pigeon line-"De Voskes," the red pigeons. That color goes back to an old red Horemans pigeon (B69-6582499). That pigeon was bought in 1975 through Gaston Cruysweegs. Gaston paid 1000 Belgian francs for that cock which was sitting among 400 other pigeons. "The old red cock was a very nice bird," remembered Ludo. "It took a long time before I could buy that pigeon from Gaston Cruysweegs. Ludo put the red cock in the breeding loft and another miracle occurred. The famous red family was born........


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

calmcool410 said:


> Question? I have tipplers .If i pair a yellow cock to a blue hen can u tell me what color i will get...I had all blues (hughs) , i introduced a yellow lovatt cock recently...The blue and yellow are sitting on eggs now...I cant wait  i hopeing u will tell me what colors i will get?.....Thankyou....I see u are here alot and is a smart guy....I read alot of your post...Thanks again


Check out Ron's link : http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html

I am thinking you will get blue, but after a while trying to research your question on his link, I may be more confused then before.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

spirit wings said:


> Is there anymore information about pigment and lack there of, and how it effects the feathers. If more pigment is a plus, then why would keepers NOT breed darker birds? maybe there are not enough of them that are worthy?


 Most winners are blue, and thus their flights are some of the darkest. It's all the other colors, with the lighter colored flights, where it becomes more challenging to find very lite colored racing champions. The effect of pigment on feather quality is of course a supposition, based on experiences by owners of lite colored pigeons with frayed feathers. Actual reliable research on the matter, would be something I would like to see.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

grunt45 said:


> I am hoping this carries the thread further instead of taking it over. This thread along with some others has me dreaming of owning some lightning fast reds When breeding for a specific color what is the biggest challenge? Do you need a separate loft to really monitor the pairs? The obvious answer seems to be *acquire a pair of reds that are better than anything you have and breed a lot from them*. Is there more to it than that?


 If you want to breed reds, then your task is as simple as finding a couple of really good red pigeons, ideally better then anything you own. In a few generations, as you breed from offspring and grandchildren, you will soon be producing more reds then anything else. Where it becomes much more challenging, is breeding say racing saddles, or barless, and then produce these in yellows, duns, browns, powder blues, chromes, or breed new colors etc.


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