# Huddled feral pigeon, eyes closed.



## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

First of all, hello! You'll probably start seeing alot of me on here from now on. I'm a student moved to london from north wales and I find myself taking in sick pigeons. I'm pretty experienced with sick chickens but I don't know how much knowledge is relevant to pigeons.

I have myself a huddled pigeon with it's eyes closed. I picked him up yesturday on the pavement. The mouth was pink and clear and I offered some sugar water which he drank willingly. I spent a long time cutting tangled hair off his feet. On one foot the hair was embedded quite badly but I'm hopeful the toes can be saved. I feel a little wamth in them so I'd hope that is a good sign of circulation.
I think this is a young pigeon. It has full adult plumage but has that funny sort of figure of 8 shaped beak.
My concern now is not the foot but that he's quite lethargic with eyes closed. I'm not sure what a healthy pigeon dropping looks like, not like a chicken dropping I'm sure but the one's he's producing have white runny urates, clear liquid and a little brown.
No sign of respiratory distress.

At the moment we have him outside in a rabbit hutch with a hot water bottle. I'd have like to have brought him inside but was concerned because we have a baby who is crawling around and putting everything in her mouth. I understand there is a misconception about pigeons carrying disease but is it completely safe to bring him indoor? Salmonella risk from droppings maybe?

I didn't know what to feed him and his crop was empty so I fed him some pieces of sweetcorn, and some porriage/oats rolled into little balls with a little honey and oil(so they weren't sticky) and popped in his beak which he swallowed fine. I don't know how appropiate this was but I didn't have much in the house last night. He also has mixed bird seed in a dish if he chooses.

I'd like to know what I can get hold of easily in the UK medication wise to start compiling a first aid kit. Links to products to buy online would be useful too.

I'm making my way through the sticky posts. Advice is really appreciated.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Can you post a photo with him?


If no mouth or nose discharge, it could be a local, only eye infection. There are some drops for this. But can be something else as well.

What about his beak, what you mean is "figure 8"?


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

I have also noticed in better light today he is riddled with long tube shaped crawlies- lice? I can treat with ivermectin? Links?
His eyes also seem just a tad crusty. His crop has emptied. I'll feed again now.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Those are lice but I think some spray with pyrethrin is better then invermectin. (less toxic and more efficient).


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

I think that was was a bit of a misdescription  . Their beaks just look weird to me. Bumpy. Not like a chicken beak. Here he is. He flaps initially when I pick him up, but is pretty tired and weak.
Am I okay to feed him more little oat balls? I don't know what to give him unless I nip out to get something else.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

some droppings are also greenish.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Hi, 
Thanks for caring for this needy bird. You can feed him defrosted frozen peas/corns thawed under hot water to get them to normal temperature around 30-35 in number by opening his beak and putting one by one. You can feed him 3 times a day. 
You can find sprays for lice and mites on pet stores to treat him for lice/mites. Just spray under wings and tail feathers and not over head or near beak or nostrils. 
You think he hasn't got any respiratory problems? just eyes closed all the time? Do you see any discharge from eyes, mouth or nose? 
Can you pls post a pic of poop as well.

Here is a link for caring for baby pigeon, it has very useful information in it:

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/caringforababypigeon.htm

Also, you can keep him inside in the same rabbit hutch. The baby shouldn't have access to his droppings and that will be fine. 
I keep my 4 pigeons in my room with 2 kids living in the same room most of the time.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

Yeah, eyes closed all the time. No discharge I can see. My camera has given up so I can't get a picture but poo wise it's clear liquid and liquid runny white and small jelly-like almost rubbery dark green/brown bits. Sometimes just a bit of white liquid.
Feeding some corn now, thank you x


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*The poor thing is probably starved. Please check the keel/breast bone and see if it is sharp. The bird needs to be force fed, when crop is empty. but the bird needs to be warm first and kept out of drafts of air.

PLEASE check the link above and feed, it is one of the least stressful methods.*


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

Oh oh! There are some small cream coloured bits in his throat. I thought it was a couple of small pieces of food. Is that canker? How do I treat??


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

double post


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

That's what I was thinking why a feral pigeon would starve. A cheesy growth in their mouth is canker. You said you thought it could be food?  But that will be as a cheesy immovable growth in his throat. If it is so, he should be treated for canker. Metronidazole is a medicine for that. 
In U.K I am not sure where you could get this metronidazole though,i have seen people saying they can't get it without vets apt or online. 

If you are on Facebook, I suggest you to join the Pigeon Rescue group which is a network of rescuers and some rescue centres in the UK:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PigeonProtection/

May be someone could help you there in your area with metronidazole, they are amazing rescuers there.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

Possibly canker, but sight unseen over the web it would be kinda rash to say yea or nay. The only med available for canker without prescription is Spartrix. Various online sources in UK, such as Boddy & Ridewood, or feed stores which cater for pigeons too.

A problem we always face is the unavailability of virtually any meds for pigeons unless prescribed.

BTW there is a UK Facebook group of rescuers - individuals and from rescue centres - at

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PigeonProtection/


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> It would be very helpful if you post a photo with the droppings anyway.
> 
> The bird is sick and emaciated + dehydrated. Something is blocking the digestive tract, letting only liquids pass (so the bigger than usual white part in droppings, those being the urates). Often, at birds of this age is a canker nodule in mouth or throat (that can be seen or filled through skin) but from her aspect there seems to be rather some crop blockage, letting only liquids pass into body. Crop blockage may be caused by candida (I met only such cases) or from what I've read, canker nodules or ingested objects.
> 
> As candida was the cause of crop blockages I met, I would first treat for candida and see if has effect, returning to a normal proportion between feces (the dark part) and urates. I wouldn't give food for now, as if there is a crop blockage, food only will make the situation worse, impeding drugs to travel through crop.


I may be wrong but in my opinion, because of his sickness he isn't able to eat so the droppings are only urates. Where there is nothing going in, nothing coming out, as simple as that. So he should be treated for canker first. But I would like some more experienced members to respond as well.

Edit: Oh sorry, after my post I saw someone experienced has already responded on his symptoms. Thanks John for the inputs and medicinal information in U.K.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

evilcitty said:


> Yeah, eyes closed all the time. No discharge I can see. My camera has given up so I can't get a picture but poo wise it's clear liquid and liquid runny white and small jelly-like almost rubbery dark green/brown bits. Sometimes just a bit of white liquid.
> Feeding some corn now, thank you x


It would be very helpful if you post a photo with the droppings anyway. 

The bird is sick and emaciated + dehydrated. Something is blocking the digestive tract, letting only liquids pass (so the bigger than usual white part in droppings, those being the urates). Often, at birds of this age is a yellow canker nodule in mouth or throat (that can be seen or filled through skin) but from your description seems rather to be something else, some crop blockage, letting only liquids pass into body. Blockage may be caused by candida (I met only such cases) or from what I've read, canker nodules or ingested objects.

As candida is the most cause of crop blockage I met, I would treat for candida and see if has effect. I wouldn't give food for now, as if there is a crop blockage food only will make the situation worse, impeding drugs to travel through crop.



> Oh oh! There are some small cream coloured bits in his throat. I thought it was a couple of small pieces of food. Is that canker? How do I treat??


Is rather candida, which appear like small white plaques. And if appeared in mouth, it means is an advanced stage and needs a systemic antifungal drug, fluconazole. But surely there is candida in crop as well, which cannot be cleared only by fluconazole, it needs nystatin and acv (apple cider vinegar). Problem is that this should be given as a solution and forcing a bird to get a liquid is done through crop feeding, which is problematic for someone without experience.




kiddy said:


> I may be wrong but in my opinion, because of his sickness he isn't able to eat so the droppings are only urates. Where there is nothing going in, nothing coming out, as simple as that. So he should be treated for canker first. But I would like some more experienced members to respond as well.


If she doesn't eat at all, she should not pass urates either. Urates are from processed food, not from water.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

I've not seen this before and am not used to pigeons. The cream coloured stuff kinda looks like custard or melty cheese. I guess I mistook it for a piece of mushy food just hanging around at first glance.
There are some small cream patches under the tongue near it's base on the bottom on the mouth and a long bit of it stuck to the side of the tongue and extending down the throat.

The crop, I feel on the chest like I do with a chicken fills with food I pop in the beak. He/she?- (no idea), still seems to be able to swallow what I put in the mouth despite the gunky stuff. Maybe I should give smaller pieces or liquids though? The crop emptied overnight from the food I put in. I fed him/her yesturday when the crop was empty after I found him/her at the side of the road. Stuff must be getting through, right? If the crop is emptying. 

I've treated yeast in chickens before with nystatin and daktarin when they had 'sour crop'. Similar in pigeons? 

I've had a look on the web for some canker treatments to buy without presciption. I'm real not got alot of money right now (ahh, studentdom) but this can't wait til the 5th when I do. I know I could ask for what I need at the vets but they'd want to see the animal- wham. Expensive consultation fee.

I can see some things on amazon but they may take a few days to arrive..

Also. These long skinny lice...are they a problem for me? I found two on my chest after handling the bird. Will they invade my room and clothes and such? Bite me?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Crop is getting emptied, that's great. 
Did you join Facebook group I and John referred?
There are many rescuers there and if you can get any in your area, you could get required medicines to treat canker. Rescuers usually have common medicines on hand and canker is very common disease in pigeons.

Lice can bite you too but don't have much idea about them. Someone else can tell better.

Edit: pls don't give liquids to birds orally, they can be easily aspirated and is fatal. If you want to make him drink, just dip his beak in a crock of water and let him sip or dip your fingers in water and put at the sides of beak and let him suck in.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

evilcitty said:


> The cream coloured stuff kinda looks like custard or melty cheese.


It must be candida or canker. Candida has a rather bright intensity while canker is less bright.



> Stuff must be getting through, right? If the crop is emptying.


Are you sure is emptying? Did she pass some drpoppings with feces? Is possible to have vomited overnight?



> I've treated yeast in chickens before with nystatin and daktarin when they had 'sour crop'. Similar in pigeons?


ACV is more effective than nystatin, in larger amount and given three times / day in water or (liquid) food. I give ACV in combination with nystatin for crop candida. But as I said, if candida appeared somewhere else than in crop, nystatin has no more effect, as is not systemic drug, is not absorbed into blood but remains in crop. Miconazole, the active substance of daktarin, from what I read online is partly absorbed into blood. Fluconazole proved to me effective for mouth candida but not effective for massive crop infestation. So I give nystatin + acv and fluconazole to such case. Ofcourse, if is candida and not canker.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

Right. I'm doing my best here. Thanks guys. <3

I've treated with ivermectin (its what the petshop had) for those lice. I found 3 crawling around in my bra (not cool) Harkers treatment for canker is arriving tomorrow, soluble powder. And some fluconazole arriving in the next couple of days. (79p on amazon?? Pretty good! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bristol-Thr...qid=1442438803&sr=8-1&keywords=thrush+capsule that'll be okay right?) I have ACV in the meantime. That's all things covered, right??

I'll let you know how I get on...

I've also joined the mentioned fb group, waiting to be accepted.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

evilcitty said:


> Harkers treatment for canker is arriving tomorrow, soluble powder.


That is for flock treatment. For individual treatment, tablets would be more indicated, as with the hydrosoluble powder you have to prepare 1 l or so of medicated water. Other solution (which I use) is to buy a high precision scale, calculate the amount of drug containing the necessary amount of metronidazole or ronidazole (the active substance), and extract it. For such a small and light bird, I think there must be 40 mg metronidqazole / day or 2,5 mg ronidazole. The lenght is days or more if persistent disease. Do not make pause even for a day or underdose as the canker will immediately become resistent and the drug useless.



> And some fluconazole arriving in the next couple of days. (79p on amazon?? Pretty good! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bristol-Thr...qid=1442438803&sr=8-1&keywords=thrush+capsule that'll be okay right?)


If is candida, in few days will become too advanced to be treated. From the apparition of white plaques in mouth to death there have been three days in a case of unthreated bird of mine.



> I have ACV in the meantime. That's all things covered, right??


ACV should never miss from drinking water for the sick or healthy birds, in small amount. Probiotics must be given daily or as frequent as possible. Garlic is very good too and B vitamins and calcium are needed periodically. For candida, the acv must be considerably more, water should have pronounced sour taste but not as sour as to be refused by bird.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Agree with AndreiS, tablet is better to administer to individual sick pigeon so we can give proper dose, in water we don't actually know, how much they are getting.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

Yes, I can see a tablet would be better. I was thinking speed of delivery though. I'll just have to do my best to get plenty of the solution down the bird. I could do some guess work about the average volume a pigeon drinks a day and aim for that? Maybe make it a little more concentrated to be sure. I could drip it into the crack of the beak to be sucked in drop by drop with a syringe.
With chickens I was able to open the beak and syringe the liquids carefully against the cheek to dribble down the back of the throat around the slit like opening of the windpipe...but this bird so so small and with obstructions :/ I've never used a crop tube before either.

I have high precision scales back at my parents house as well as Avipro probiotics. It's frustrating. I have nothing here! Boo. I could have them posted to myself but that would take time too.

I can see if I can get something similar for candida from a pharmacy today but other than that there's not much else I can do.

Today he/she is more active and resistant to handling. There is more dark brown in the droppings and the crop emptied again overnight so food is going through well enough. Been cutting the corn pieces in half and feeding like that.
But he/she has now got a sort of sneezey cough that started last night. I don't know if it's respiratory illness coming on or could this be from this cheesy gunk inside obstructing the airway? The bird makes a 'cuh' sort of sound a few times then settles. I wiped its beak when i was feeding and got a tiny bit of stringy clear mucus from a nare.

This one is quite a project.... But they're hanging in there.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

From his nasal discharge again I think he has canker, also from his closed eyes and growth in throat. If the crop is getting emptied, it is not candida because that causes crop blockage. You need to medicate him asap else he can die of canker. 
Have you got approved in that Facebook group yet? if not pls send me your user name or email id through PM, I will try something for you. Also pls tell which area are you in so I can see if there are any rescuers in your area or get some knowledge from someone who knows about areas in the U. K. It seems we shouldn't be late in treatment. You can PM me the things I asked for so the required things can be done.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

evilcitty said:


> I could do some guess work about the average volume a pigeon drinks a day and aim for that?


*No*. You calculate the amount of powder containing the necessary dose, using the concentration indicated on the package. If it says that is 10%, it means the amount of drug containing 40 mg (the dose for such a small pigeon) is 400 mg. Then you separate that amount from the whole content of the package. The easiest you can do this with a high precision scale. You may find a cheap one, like I found mine, for which I paid 30$ and works well. If not possible, you empty the content of package, the powder on a clean sheet of paper, like an A4 or A3 xerox paper. Then, using a knife or something similar, you separate the powder in two (as possible as) equal parts. Then you separate one of the two halves in two and so on until you reach something close to the desired amount.



> Maybe make it a little more concentrated to be sure.


You may give a higher dose in first day, like 50 mg but no more than 40 in next days. I damaged the eyes of three pigeons with metronidazole overdose recently.



> I could drip it into the crack of the beak to be sucked in drop by drop with a syringe.


*Don't!* Birds are not watered or crop feed like that as you can make them aspirate water /food into trachea and most likely will die. The trachea communicate with the mouth through a vent on tonguek,which is hard to avoid if you pour liquids directly in mouth. You put the drug in a small amount of water and offer no other until he drinks it all. There is also the technique of crop feeding with a tube attached to a syringe. the tube must be7 inches long, to reach the bottom of the crop and avoid aspiration,as water / food easily come up into mouth and enter trachea.

The technique is dificile as you can harm the esophagus. For that reason, you should never push or force at all, rather leave the tube slide inside and stop the operation if that doesn't happen. There is even more danger if the pigeon has canker nodules in throat, as pushing such a nodule and dislocating it will cause a possibly deadly haemorrhage.

You find details here:
http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/feedbaby/feedbaby.html



> But he/she has now got a sort of sneezey cough that started last night. I don't know if it's respiratory illness coming on or could this be from this cheesy gunk inside obstructing the airway? The bird makes a 'cuh' sort of sound a few times then settles. I wiped its beak when i was feeding and got a tiny bit of stringy clear mucus from a nare.


Especially overnight, you must protect her from air drafts.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

Sorry, I'm not too good with neat replies with the quotes and stuff but thanks guys . Right, I'll try and cut the powder like you say, AndreiS, since I don't have scales here. I may confirm with you I have done that about as well as I can before I give it. I'm still waiting for it. It's supposed to be guaranteed to be delivered by the end of the day. I'm getting nervous, time is ticking on. 

I thought dripping on the beak was okay? I don't mean squirting it in, I mean on a closed beak? I'm not confident with crop tubes but I'll have a careful go as a last resort if she's not drinking it.

Since being treated for lice she is in my room and being kept comfortable and warm.

I also think it was too late for her 'thumb' toe. It looks as though it's shrivelling up at a funny angle, but the other 3 toes look good. Will it drop off on it's own?

Kiddy, I joined and posted. I'm in London, camden area. I'll pm you anyway.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I will never suggest any inexperienced member to crop feed and when the bird has canker in throat too. 
If you make him drink through syringe with closed beak, just by dribbling the drops at sides of his beak and let him suck that way, that would be the best method for you. 
I hope through Facebook you get someone experienced who can guide you better to treat him.


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## FluffyClaire (Sep 17, 2015)

Pie!!!!!!!


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

evilcitty said:


> I thought dripping on the beak was okay? I don't mean squirting it in, I mean on a closed beak? I'm not confident with crop tubes but I'll have a careful go as a last resort if she's not drinking it.


Yes, that is ok. Sorry for not getting first time what you were saying. This is the method which uses the capilarity effect. But it takes very long and if the bird is dizzy because of weakness, it will make her aspirate as well, as she cannot controll fully what's happening in her mouth.



> Since being treated for lice she is in my room and being kept comfortable and warm.


Inside the room there are air drafts so at least by night you should put her in a large (like old tv set package) cardboard box.



> I also think it was too late for her 'thumb' toe. It looks as though it's shrivelling up at a funny angle, but the other 3 toes look good. Will it drop off on it's own?


If it didn't reach the stage when starts to blacken, I think the toe will be saved.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

AndreiS I have the canker treatment. Harkers 4g sachets of Ronidazole 10% to be mixed with 4ltrs.

So I'm aiming to give up to 50mg today and 40mg for the next 4? It says it's given for 5 days.

So how best to do this?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I would suggest you to deliver this bird to the rescuer in your area who can properly dose him and save. You can discuss about dosage etc with the rescuer as well. They are experts and they will guide you the best because they can see the condition of the bird (just not by a pic) and so treat accordingly.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

evilcitty said:


> AndreiS I have the canker treatment. Harkers 4g sachets of Ronidazole 10% to be mixed with 4ltrs.
> 
> So I'm aiming to give up to 50mg today and 40mg for the next 4? It says it's given for 5 days.
> 
> So how best to do this?



The sachet contains 400 mg Ronidazole, which means the excipient is x 10. I'm not sure how effective is this drug.

Ronidazole is a different drug, the dosage is smaller than at Metronidazole, for which I said is 40 mg. For a small, 200 gr pigeon, is 2 - 2,5 mg Ronidazole / day, as Jay said to me recently. Maybe in first day you should give 3 mg. 

So you multiply 3 mg with 10 and makes 30 mg. You should give 30 mg of powder in first day and 25 mg the next 5-6 days.

So to get the 30 mg you put the sacket's content on a sheet of paper and divide the content in two, getting two halves of 2000 mg each. Next divide and you get 1000 mg, then 500 mg, then 250 mg, then 125 mg, then 63 mg, then 31 mg. So you have to divide 7 times. Don't forget next days to remember that you have already taken from the content and calculate according to the amount remained in sacket, which will be fewer with 50 mg each day (60 in the first day).


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I edited the previous message, changing the data about amounts of drug, as I found that your sachet contains 400 mg Ronidazole, not 200 mg. This in case that you already read it.


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## emmettdilemmett (Sep 15, 2015)

Is he doing any better?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> If she doesn't eat at all, she should not pass urates either. Urates are from processed food, not from water.



Andrei, the urates are from the water the bird takes in, not from food. So if not eating and only drinking than Kiddy is correct in that it would be just urates.
Any green droppings are probably starvation droppings.


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## evilcitty (Sep 16, 2015)

Thank you everyone. I was able to get hold of a rescuer near myself yesterday through the fb group and I took the pigeon to him. Lovely guy named Paul, I hope to stay in touch and learn a thing or two from him.
Thank you truly for all your help, i'll keep what I've learned in my head and probably lurk here for a while reading the threads xxx
It's lovely to get in touch with people who really care.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I am really glad to know about the bird and I really hope you will learn a lot from them, they people are just amazing who strive hard to save birds. 
I am sure you too are going to be a great rescuer in future. 
I would be grateful if you keep us posted about this bird's progress. 
Thanks for the update. Keep smiling


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