# My first silver barless!



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

For 2 years I've been trying to produce a silver/ash red barless bird and I finally got one! I'm very excited because the parents are 2 of my best birds. The sire is an 04 RC janssen and the dam is an 09 pied black diamond. 










Thanks for looking.

Henry


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Congratulations! Good looking ybs you have there Henry.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks Bro! This has been long awaited. The 2 that produced this youngster are exceptional birds. The dam is a full sister to sire of the 2 birds you got from me. My goal is to procuce a barless pair to produce barless racing birds on a consistant basis. I'm halfway there!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Cute bird! Lavenders aren't hard to make if you put a red cock (easier if he is pure) with a pure black hen. Now the real challenge is making true ash-red barless birds - with the barless gene, not spread.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Henry, Very nice looking young bird. Now I must tell you that the young bird is not a barless it is in fact an ash spread, I also will say that it will be a hen. Your ash red check cock threw the red color while the black hen threw the spread gene, thus you have an ash red spread youngster. In any event you have a nice looking young bird * GEORGE


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks guys (George & Becky)! I'm happy either way and I already have a cock selected for her if she races anything like her parents!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nice! how exciting...congrats..


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

nice babies bro.....


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> nice! how exciting...congrats..


Tahnks Spirit



Bluecheckard said:


> nice babies bro.....


Thanks bro, it would have been perfect if the PINOY bands were ready!


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> For 2 years I've been trying to produce a silver/ash red barless bird and I finally got one! I'm very excited because the parents are 2 of my best birds. The sire is an 04 RC janssen and the dam is an 09 pied black diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nice can i have him..lol j/k


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Very pretty!


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

george simon said:


> *Hi Henry, Very nice looking young bird. Now I must tell you that the young bird is not a barless it is in fact an ash spread, I also will say that it will be a hen. Your ash red check cock threw the red color while the black hen threw the spread gene, thus you have an ash red spread youngster. In any event you have a nice looking young bird * GEORGE


I wish I understood genetics like you guys. I've read several websites on pigeon genetics and I still can't put it all together like you and Becky can.

Maybe you could create a post with a "shortcut" key explaining a very complex subject into laymans terms. For example explaining how you can determine the sex by the color inherited from the sire. 

Tom Barhart has a nice website covering the subject..but I could use some help understanding the subject.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Although this isn't a sex-linked mating, we're assuming it is a hen because it doesn't have any blue flecking showing. Only males can carry two color genes. The ash-red is dominant, so it shows, but the blue shows through as little flecks in the wings and tail mostly. Hens can only have one color gene, so what you see is what you get, therefore it can't be flecked.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

jAxTecH said:


> I wish I understood genetics like you guys. I've read several websites on pigeon genetics and I still can't put it all together like you and Becky can.
> 
> Maybe you could create a post with a "shortcut" key explaining a very complex subject into laymans terms. For example explaining how you can determine the sex by the color inherited from the sire.
> 
> Tom Barhart has a nice website covering the subject..but I could use some help understanding the subject.


short cut would be nice!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I will do my best to make some sticky threads in simple terms over time. I started with sex-linked matings/flecking.
 Genetics websites tend to be way too drawn out, which don't get me wrong, it is interesting...but sometimes you want to go somewhere and get a short and sweet answer...without having to disect 5 pages worth of info for what you need.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Becky, george and a few others here are really pros at this genetics stuff.


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## Chilangz (Apr 3, 2008)

Cute looking young one


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jAxTecH said:


> I wish I understood genetics like you guys. I've read several websites on pigeon genetics and I still can't put it all together like you and Becky can.
> 
> Maybe you could create a post with a "shortcut" key explaining a very complex subject into laymans terms. For example explaining how you can determine the sex by the color inherited from the sire.
> 
> Tom Barhart has a nice website covering the subject..but I could use some help understanding the subject.


 Hi JAX, determining sex by colorThe first thing you need to understand is that there are only 3 colors in pigeons. They are Red, BLUE (some say blue/black) and brown. All other colors are MODIFIERS of the 3 basic colors.
Next you must understand that the male bird carrys 2 color genes while the hen carrys only one so the color you see is the only color gene she can throw. Now the male bird carring 2 color genes so a red male can be red/red, or red/blue or red/brown all males get one color gene from the father and one from the mother.There is also an order of dominates red then blue and last brown So if you mate a red hen to a blue or brown male you have a sex linked mating.in this mating all males will be red as that is the most dominate color REMEMBER THE HEN GIVES ONE COLOR GENE AND THE MALE GIVES ONE TO THE MALE YOUNG thus 2 color genes the young hen in the nest does not get a color gene from her mother all she gets is one color gene from her father.I must point out that in this mating the young male will get a blue OR brown gene so he will be red split of blue RED/BLUE or brown red/brown. I best stop here I hope that I have been able to help you understand. ..GEORGE


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Dennis Kuhn, white racers has some barless blues and silvers they may not be as good as yours, but it may help you establish a line.
Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I have seen the Dennis Kuhn barless birds and they look like exceptional birds. I've actually considered getting some birds from him if I wasn't able to produce any from my current stock this year. I will continue with what I have for now and see where I end up next year.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Bro!! Those are some nice looking silver barnone or barless...


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Cute bird! Lavenders aren't hard to make if you put a red cock (easier if he is pure) with a pure black hen. Now the real challenge is making true ash-red barless birds - with the barless gene, not spread.





george simon said:


> *Hi Henry, Very nice looking young bird. Now I must tell you that the young bird is not a barless it is in fact an ash spread, I also will say that it will be a hen. Your ash red check cock threw the red color while the black hen threw the spread gene, thus you have an ash red spread youngster. In any event you have a nice looking young bird * GEORGE


So this is lavender ? Lavender and silver are the same, right ? and silver is the dilute of red, so is there a dilute gene also working here ?

Also, ash red spreads, aren't they suppose to have a red spread body with an ash tail without any additional modifiers ? Or is it the modifiers apart from spread which bring in the red body and ash tail 

BTW its a beautiful cute youngster which ever way the pattern came  but while breeding from this bird, it would be always good to know the actual genetics


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Thank you George and Becky. I appreciate the summarized version of your explanation. I know there are a multitude of variables but the basic rule of Red/Blue/Black in color dominance and the cock has 2 color genes and the hen has 1 helps put the subject into perspective.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

It is always a challenge to breed something. Nice babies, Henry!


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

bloodlines_365 said:


> Bro!! Those are some nice looking silver barnone or barless...


Thanks bro! I like the term "barnone"!



RodSD said:


> It is always a challenge to breed something. Nice babies, Henry!


Thanks Rod, it's always a great feeling when you get what you want from a pairing.


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

I have a similar color YB early this year but after molt some red bar started showing. Here it is when it was young. It also has some redding around it's neck


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks for sharing that Eric. I hope the bars stay hidden on this bird even after the molt.


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## hasseian_313 (Oct 31, 2009)

love to see her as a adult


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## Caden's Aviary (Jul 14, 2010)

I bought a couple of prisoners from Mr. Kuhn when I first started getting birds. If I would have waited, I probably wouldn't have gotten them just because people on here have helped me get such great birds (bbcdon and Jax), but they are well built and good looking nonetheless. From what I've seen he gets some great race results even though he partially breeds for color. Mine were off his sale pages and he didn't breed them I don't think. IMO his site is a good place to get birds though.

Maybe somebody could tell me what my hatchlings will look like. The cock is solid white and the hen is a silver mealy. If red is dominant then they would be red right?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well, if the baby is a cock it will be red. Its hard to tell what is hiding under the white, so who knows what the hens would end up being. I suppose you could get some white cocks, as there are so many genes affecting white it really is hard to know without a whole bunch of information.


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## Caden's Aviary (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks Matt! Jax sent me a pair of whites and a pair of reds. I wanted to get some whites to start a dove release, but the white cock he sent paired up with the red hen. Red is my favorite color bird though. I just hope they hatch in the cold weather. Can anybody recommend or let me know how they shore up their lofts for the winter. Mine is small, a little over 20 sq. ft. with large vents on bottom and small vents on top. It barely gets down to freezing here (Mississippi), so I'm not worried about the adult birds just the eggs and any babies.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

sreeshs said:


> So this is lavender ? Lavender and silver are the same, right ? and silver is the dilute of red, so is there a dilute gene also working here ?
> 
> Also, ash red spreads, aren't they suppose to have a red spread body with an ash tail without any additional modifiers ? Or is it the modifiers apart from spread which bring in the red body and ash tail
> 
> BTW its a beautiful cute youngster which ever way the pattern came  but while breeding from this bird, it would be always good to know the actual genetics


Silver and Lavender are not the same thing. Lavender is spread ash-red. Silver is the dilute of blue. But some people call ash-red birds 'silvers' because they have a silvery color to them.

Ash-red spread birds are solid ashy/silvery colored with minimal red leaking through. The ash-red birds with solid red wings/bodies and ash tail are the velvets (t-patterns).


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Caden's Aviary said:


> I bought a couple of prisoners from Mr. Kuhn when I first started getting birds. If I would have waited, I probably wouldn't have gotten them just because people on here have helped me get such great birds (bbcdon and Jax), but they are well built and good looking nonetheless. From what I've seen he gets some great race results even though he partially breeds for color. Mine were off his sale pages and he didn't breed them I don't think. IMO his site is a good place to get birds though.
> 
> Maybe somebody could tell me what my hatchlings will look like. The cock is solid white and the hen is a silver mealy. If red is dominant then they would be red right?


White isn't a color, so the dominance of red doesn't apply. Recessive white is simply a gene that covers up the orignal color. If a bird has two genes for recessive white, then they appear pure white, regardless of what color they are genetically (red, blue, brown, or anything else like grizzles, spreads, even recessive red). Covers up all the genes that would normally express themselves physically.
If a bird has one gene for recessive white, it is normal colored and unaffected by it, but can pass it on to the kids.

There is no way to tell what the babies will look like until you breed them. The white cock could have anything hiding under it. Red, blue, brown, almond, black, yellow, grizzle, indigo - anything.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Caden's Aviary said:


> Thanks Matt! Jax sent me a pair of whites and a pair of reds. I wanted to get some whites to start a dove release, but the white cock he sent paired up with the red hen. Red is my favorite color bird though. I just hope they hatch in the cold weather. Can anybody recommend or let me know how they shore up their lofts for the winter. Mine is small, a little over 20 sq. ft. with large vents on bottom and small vents on top. It barely gets down to freezing here (Mississippi), so I'm not worried about the adult birds just the eggs and any babies.


All the babies from the white x red pairings will be normal colored, whether they turn out blue or red or whatever. However, all those babies will be split for (carrying) the recessive white gene. So mate those babies with other white birds, or to each other, and you'll get more whites.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Silver and Lavender are not the same thing. Lavender is spread ash-red. Silver is the dilute of blue. But some people call ash-red birds 'silvers' because they have a silvery color to them.
> 
> Ash-red spread birds are solid ashy/silvery colored with minimal red leaking through. The ash-red birds with solid red wings/bodies and ash tail are the velvets (t-patterns).


Ok, because I have some birds with solid red body and ash tails, thought they would be ash red spread, I am waiting for a hatchling from one of those birds so it might give a clue.

Wonder why the spread factor causes a solid black in the blue birds and a solid ash in the red birds, ideally the modifier should have spread the red of the red bar like it spreads the black of the blue bar, right ? or is it that because black is concentrated pigment of blue while the red is not a concentrated pigment of the ash on a red bar


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

sreeshs said:


> Wonder why the spread factor causes a solid black in the blue birds and a solid ash in the red birds, ideally the modifier should have spread the red of the red bar like it spreads the black of the blue bar, right ? or is it that because black is concentrated pigment of blue while the red is not a concentrated pigment of the ash on a red bar


Hmm, I think that answer is there on Frank Mosca's site, directly qouting as in the website:

_"Spread is a mutation which can basically be considered to *take the tail bar color* and "spread" it over the entire bird, like an overcoat. Thus, a spread blue pigeon is a black, and a spread brown is self-brown. Because the Ash-red bird has an ashy-tail bar, the Spread mutation reproduces this color over the entire bird. Voila, a "barless" mealy. I say "barless" because the Spread factor usually prevents you from seeing the bars, though they are there, just as you normally don't see the bars in a black, though they, too, are genetically there."_


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah it's the tail bar  Now I'm wondering what a spread ash-yellow looks like?


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yeah it's the tail bar  Now I'm wondering what a spread ash-yellow looks like?


Oh Becky, ditto here, I was wondering what an ash red spread pigeon homozygous for dilute is (following the post on the yellow birds), so checked up Frank's site about the spread and dilutes, stumbled on the answer that spread is from the tail mark color  so thought atleast one question is answered


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Silver and Lavender are not the same thing. Lavender is spread ash-red. Silver is the dilute of blue. But some people call ash-red birds 'silvers' because they have a silvery color to them.


Becky... still confused about the difference in Silvers and Lavenders.. can you post some pics to show the difference between the two? 



MaryOfExeter said:


> Ash-red spread birds are solid ashy/silvery colored with minimal red leaking through. The ash-red birds with solid red wings/bodies and ash tail are the velvets (t-patterns).


I think i might have a velvet.. I'll post the pics as soon as i download them of my cellphone... Better yet I'll start a new post.

Here's the same young bird after molt...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

TRUE Silver is just dilute blue bird in any pattern. Their flights are a lighter color, and the ground color may be lighter, but the pattern stays the same dark black. They also have pale yellow eye.

Here is a Silver bar King.











Lavender is ash-red spread, like the bird you pictured.


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## VsyVirus (May 24, 2013)

I would like to see the sire and dam that produce those guys


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## mikeyg (Jul 11, 2012)

Super Nice Bird!!!!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Like to see the baby in a month from now...Should be a real looker !!!

Becky......You are living in my old stomping ground...Was stationed out there many years ago....Loved the area...Didn`t love stomping out in the desert,with the snakes etc.....Alamo


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Don't have the birds anymore but the dam was a BLK Pied Black Daimond and the sire was a RC Janssen.


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