# Bronze markings on the wings - Rollers



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

On another thread there was mention of bronze markings on the bars of a bird. I have this one (these three pictures are the same bird) and others that show this marking. Is this anything special that may be useful in a breeding program. The parents are a blue checker pied cock and a recessive red pied hen. I can post pictures of the parents if it is helpfull.

Thanks,

John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2066


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Some of my rollers have the same bronze. It does not look like kite bronze but could be?? Either way it will help your blacks and also help your rec reds.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan,

Couple of more pictures of different young birds, I would need to check the ring numbers but I'm sure they are all siblings. I raised four rounds from this pair and they are all the same. 

John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2067


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

the bottom one i would say is bronzing, but the hen in top pictures i would call a indigo bar, they are solid bars and not a blending like in bronzing.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The second set of pictures, most if not all of that should moult out. The top set of pictures is roller bronze.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The second set of pictures, most if not all of that should moult out. The top set of pictures is roller bronze.


Roller bronze ?!? Didn't know such a thing existed. To me it looks exactly similar to modena bronze ( as seen on Tri-coloured cauchois pigeons ). Everyone knows that rollers have quite a large range on genes though, many of which is still a mystery when looking at the posts of late. Anyway, the distincion is not important, but I would say it shouls be possible to producte more birds like this one by mating back to a parent.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

horseart4u said:


> the bottom one i would say is bronzing, but the hen in top pictures i would call a indigo bar, they are solid bars and not a blending like in bronzing.


There are definitely no indigos in these sets. Indigo never leaves any black in the pattern - especially in young birds, while these obviusly show black outer edges to the bronzed pattern areas.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

These birds are the parents of the birds showing the bronzing. I've been told the hen is a recessive red pied? I would like to breed more recessive reds and was told to breed her with one of her sons. I would like to get a solid coloured bird. Will this be difficult with all the pied I have in my birds?

John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2072


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I think you will have quite a lot of trouble getting to solid red. Pied genes are many and varied, you might be working with a single dominant or 3 or more recesives. It is impossible to tell for sure without breeding tests.

Once you have two rec-red to start off with only very strong selection _against white_ will enable you to get rid of the white. Good luck


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks Rudolph


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There are 8 bronzes: kite, modena, lebanon, tippler, roller, brander, and archangel, and toy stencil bronze. I think sometimes roller bronze is mistaken for kite bronze. Could be what the second set is as well and that is the type that mostly goes away as an adult. I'm not sure what exactly roller bronze is supposed to look like but I assumed being a roller, that's probably what it would be. Although I agree it does look just like modena bronze. But then again toy stencil bronze can look just like that too.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> There are 8 bronzes: kite, modena, lebanon, tippler, roller, brander, and archangel, and toy stencil bronze. I think sometimes roller bronze is mistaken for kite bronze. Could be what the second set is as well and that is the type that mostly goes away as an adult. I'm not sure what exactly roller bronze is supposed to look like but I assumed being a roller, that's probably what it would be. Although I agree it does look just like modena bronze. But then again toy stencil bronze can look just like that too.


I always thought Indigo was a type of bronze " Indigo Bronze " Was I wrong?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Nope, indigo isn't considered bronze.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> There are 8 bronzes: kite, modena, lebanon, tippler, roller, brander, and archangel, and toy stencil bronze. I think sometimes roller bronze is mistaken for kite bronze. Could be what the second set is as well and that is the type that mostly goes away as an adult. I'm not sure what exactly roller bronze is supposed to look like but I assumed being a roller, that's probably what it would be. Although I agree it does look just like modena bronze. But then again toy stencil bronze can look just like that too.


I still consider modena bronze to be part of the toy stencil complex. Richard Cryberg's study of modena bronze did give us more information on the genes necessary to create the typical pheotype of modena bronze (Maa, mab etc...) but his study didn't refute previous studies proving modena bronze (probably the only dominant gene that Cryberg described) to be part of the toy stencil complex.

Also brander, tippler, roller and kite bronze and could easily be the same bronze combined with different factors or selection. I have as yet not been able to find any studies specifically aimed at any of the bronzes, except for the Archangel bronze. Nor have I seen any studies comparing the bronzes, or experiments of interbreeding them. Yet another of thoseunclear areas!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Nope, indigo isn't considered bronze.


I remember a few posts on the pigeon genetics mailing list some time ago, where someone also made the comment that indigo could be considered a bronzing factor. In the end I think that whether you consider it bronze or not is up to you. Similarly recessive red could be called a bronzing factor, since recessive reds can look like bronze for certain show standards. What is important is that we remember the effect of each gene on the phenotype, and how it is inherited.


Indigo is a partial dominant and gives red(ish) bars (pattern area), and washes out the tail bar.
 Archangel bronze is a partial dominant which always affects the breast, sometimes the head and belly (and in very rare circumstances the wing shields and flights).
 Kite [and roller and tippler] bronze mostly affects the wing shields and flights and is co-dominant.
 Modena bronze only affects the pattern area, and is multi-factor mutation, that is [mostly] inherited in a dominant fashion.

It is important to remember though that the correct name of the gene (_usually_ the first name given in a definitive publication on the subject) should be used in order for us not confuse each other when discussing the subject. Indigo is called indigo because that is what the experts in the field named it. [As an aside, it wasn't named it indigo bronze, probably because indigo spread (andalusian) doesn't usually show much bronze, at least not in the show standard color.]

I could easily call Archangel bronze by another name, Gimpel for instance, but using another name doesn't change anything relating to expression or inheritance of the gene. Similarly one shouldn't get caught up in the word bronze either. Think in terms of gene effects and inheritance instead of in terms of bronzing factors. Bronze doesn't mean anything, unless we know where the bronze is on the bird and how it is inherited.


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

johnbt said:


> On another thread there was mention of bronze markings on the bars of a bird. I have this one (these three pictures are the same bird) and others that show this marking. Is this anything special that may be useful in a breeding program. The parents are a blue checker pied cock and a recessive red pied hen. I can post pictures of the parents if it is helpfull.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ...


Your pigeon is kite and het red mottle.
Before the first moult you see kitebronze and rec red bronze(red mottle).After the moult,only kite.
I have the same on my racing pigeon.

Kite bronze (het):









Young bird before the moult het rec red(red mottle):


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I cannot see where the mottle comes into it


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They mean het recessive red. I don't see where mottle makes a difference. Which of course as we know, het recessive red is essential to a well colored kite pigeon.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Mottle is not even a gene is it, Its a phenotype created by tiger grizzle and either spread or red red.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I think there are multiply factors which can cause the look also depends on definitions.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Print Tippler said:


> I think there are multiple factors which can cause the look also depends on definitions.


There are definitely more than one factar than can cause what is called a red mottle. But that is not the topinc under discussion in this thread.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

jabadao said:


> Your pigeon is kite and het red mottle.
> Before the first moult you see kitebronze and rec red bronze(red mottle).After the moult,only kite. I have the same on my racing pigeon.
> 
> Kite bronze (het):


The bronze in the shield of your bird looks different to me than the shield of this pigeon:









Look at the difference in the definition of the edges of the bronze, where it meets the black.

I don't think I'd call either bird kite bronze, kite usually causes bronzing in the primaries. But I do agree that *some* birds that are split for recessive red show a lot of bronzing on the outer edges of the shield feathers which usually moults out as the bird matures.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is a picture of a young kite Australian Performing Tumbler hen I bred this season from an almond hen and recessive red cock and it has that dirty factor as well!!!

John


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

That definitely looks like kite (as I understand the phenotype associated with almond breeding).


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> They mean het recessive red. I don't see where mottle makes a difference. Which of course as we know, het recessive red is essential to a well colored kite pigeon.


Rec red










Rec red mottled










The first is not good for almond,it haven't bronze.
The second pigeon is mottled....with bronze...


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> The bronze in the shield of your bird looks different to me than the shield of this pigeon:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On the young bird,yes.
Not on old bird.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

This is what my recessive red tumblers look like. Couple of other pictures attached as well.

John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2087


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