# new member of the family?



## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

Good Morning everyone.
I am soooo glad that I have found your forum. I live in the UK.
I have a baby pigeon, My grand daughter bought him/her to me when she was out walking her dog. She found a squashed pigeon near where “Apollo” was huddling by the side of the road.
As I have limited experience of birds, Budgies and Canaries. I need help. I have been feeding ground up baby pigeon food mixed with egg food, [that is what is on the bag] Apollo eats it from the end of a lolly stick, I think he is drinking himself now but I have been giving him a couple of syringe fulls after food just in case.
He is not a baby baby fully feathered appart from under his wings, new grey hair coming on his head.
After reading as much as I can on the net, I am becoming concerned that if he lives what should I do with him? He isn’t tame and cuddly yet as I am trying not to tame him so I had hoped to release him into our local woods. Now I read that he will not be able to survive out there with others of his kind?
We have loads of neighbours with cats that would love to eat him, that would shatter my grand daughter if she found out So releasing him into the garden doesn’t seem much of an option.
Would it be very cruel to keep him in a big cage with flying time? [I have dogs]
Oh dear if only he wasn’t so a nice little chap.
Any help would be really appreciated.
Sandra


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Sandra,

Where are you located?

We have several members here from the UK who can help or direct you to some good resources.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you and your grandaughter for rescuing this baby.
The food you are giving him sounds good.
It would not be cruel to keep the bird in a cage with time out to exercise. Pigeons make great pets and this guy will tame up in time, most do.

Reti


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Hi Sandra and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. 
There's one parent pigeon up in heaven happy because you've taken over caring for the little one  
Please post pictures if you can. That way we can help you do the best for Apollo (named after the god, not the highly popular American speed skater, I would guess, though if the granddaughter named him . . . .  )

Thanks for taking him in.


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

*Apollo*

Many thanks for you kind replies. I didn't think that there were so many people helping pigeons. Please believe me when I say that I am very relieved to have some back up. 
I am not very good with the internet but will try to post a picture. I have added a bit to my profile, 
I live in Erith a town between The Blackwall and Dartford tunnels over the River Thames.

Apollo was named after the God, Not sure he was the God of flight. but I'm not saying a word.

Being honest do you think his chances are more than 50/50? I have had him 4 days now.
Thanks again
Sandra


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

*Apollo*










Hi All, this is a picture of Apollo. sorry it isn't very good. maybe you might know if he/she is indeed a Wood Pigeon?
regards
Sandra


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh, I'd say his chances with you are about 100% success.  He'll be a handsome one for sure. 

There are some people in the UK (John_D and cyro51 are two, canaryjane is another) that you can pm (private message) to let them know you're on-board and are on the east side of the Atlantic  . They may even be close enough to help in person should you need it.

I can't tell you if he's a wood pidgeon or not, but I'm sure you'll get some responses pretty soon.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Sandra,

He looks like a woodpigeon but i'm no expert- Cynthia and John are and I am sure they will be on line later to let you know. 

If he is woodie, it would probably be better to let him go ( not now but when he is fully grown!! ) but..... saying that I have never kept a woodie so it may be possible that you could keep him but.........I'm not sure to be perfectly honest. 

Personally I think he needs to be released when he is grown due to the nature of being a woodpigeon and that they should be living in woods/trees/parks etc... but let Cynthia or John give you advice as they will know for sure.

Keep on feeding the little chap. He may appreciate some birds seed and millet if you have any to encourage him to start pecking food.... 

Tania xx


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Sandra,

Well done taking this fella in.

He looks woodie-like to me, if I'm right in thinking the 'whites' of his eyes are actually white, and there's a pinkish tinge to his breast. Is there also a flash of white across his otherwise gray wings on the underside?

We have a collection of woodies who are unreleasable for one reason or another and though a couple of them are very human-friendly (rescued as youngsters) I doubt he'd make a good house pet.

There is an excellent wildlife place called London Wildcare which is in (I think) Wallington, Surrey, if you are able to get there. I'm sure they'd help an orphaned woodie, if necessary, for they certainly help other pigeons. 

I was going to say that one of our forum members ('Kittypaws') volunteers there, in fact, and posts her experiences regularly. I see she has beaten me to it!

John


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He is so sweet with the cutest look on his face.
I would put his chances in the 90's%, he looks healthy.

I don't know either if it is woodie, we'll find out soon from John or Cynthia.

Reti


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

kittypaws said:


> Hi Sandra,
> 
> He looks like a woodpigeon but i'm no expert- Cynthia and John are and I am sure they will be on line later to let you know.


Nah, no such thing as experts  He does look Woodie-ish from the pic, but Sandra will confirm the particular ID points I'm sure.

Would Ted take him if Sandra felt it necessary to get the 'professionals' in? Just as a backstop plan.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I agree that it is a wood pigeon . 

If it is possible to take him to a bird hospital like London Wildcare that won't euthanase on principle, he could hopefully be placed with other wood pigeons and released with them in a safe place.


Cynthia


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I agree that it is a wood pigeon .
> 
> If it is possible to take him to a bird hospital like London Wildcare that won't euthanase on principle, he could hopefully be placed with other wood pigeons and released with them in a safe place.
> 
> ...


Yes Cynthia - we (London Wildcare) could take him as a baby ( as he is) and raise him to adulthood where he would be released with others - we have about 6 juvenile woodies in at the moment. He certainly wouldn't be euthansased just for being a baby. 

Sandra, if you would like to bring him to us then we are Beddington Park, Church Road, Wallington, Surrey SM6 7NN ( between Croydon and Sutton). 

If you do decide to keep him until he is an adult then you should let him go when grown-up. It wouldn't be fair because of his species to keep him as a pet.

Tania x


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

Oh gosh, what a smashing group of people you all are, 

I have cleared a lot of stuff out my garden shed, As he needed more room to flap, he has most of the 8X8 space with a big wooden perch, Sounds good doesn't it but one problem I never considered was finding him, My daughter and I spent quite a while searching the floor this evening, I had tried to block most of the nooks and crannies. Only to look up to find him proudly sitting on the handle of the running machine three feet off the floor with his head on one side looking at us grovelling around the floor. Ever felt a complete twit? 

He had his first half hearted peck of the food on my daughters fingers today so we are making progress.

I think it would be nice for Apollo to live with others of his kind, so I wonder if I could have the address of the London Wildcare, I would like to ring them to ask if they would be kind enough to take him on, I am sure that I can get the little chap there.

As to his “Breed” he does have white eyes, and white bars to his wings. So Woodie he is, I like wood pigeons they are majestic.
Many thanks again.
Sandra


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Sandra

The phone number is 020 8647 6230

The address is: London Wildcare, Beddington Park, Church Road, Wallington, Surrey SM6 7NN. They are open 7 days a week, 24 hours i.e. never closed....if bringing him in after 8.00 at night and before 7.00pm in the morning ( some people do!!) then just ring ahead to say you are on your way. 

LW will take him as a juvenile/baby as he is and raise him to adulthood then they would release him. They don't keep pigeons in captivity but if the bird can be reared for release then that is fine and your litle chap looks quite healthy. 

I would add that LW is a charity and is funded entirely by donations, so although not compulsary, a donation ( however small) is always appreciated to pay for Apollo's upkeep. Plus you get a unique number for him, which means that you can obtain an update on him further down the line. 

Hope that this helps.

Tania xx


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

*Apollo*

Just a small update on Apollo, this afternoon he pecked some food up for the first time. What a relief. 

Tomorrow he is going to The London Wildcare, We would like him to grow up with others of his own kind.

I will forever be in the debt of the wonderful people on this list. 
Many many thanks to you all.

Lots of good wishes to everyone and their feathered friends.
Sandra


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the update, Sandra.
We will be happy to see you back, even if you have no birds or rescues.

Reti


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

You have got Apollo on the right track, Sandra. Well done for giving him a chance in life 

Hope he continues to do well

John


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Sandra came over to London Wildcare with Apollo yesterday evening and I was lucky enough to meet her. She also gave us a very generous donation ( along with her daughter?) so thank you very much......... 

He is now settled into the bird ward. We had one empty cabin left and Kim had only being saying earlier that she was thinking of putting one of the 3 birds that are in temporary cages!! into the empty cabin, but then she said " No we are bound to get a bird admitted tonight" and lo and behold Apollo arrived. ( We have 3 birds in temporary cages as we are rather full at the moment with what I call largish birds, pigeons, woodpigeons, doves, crows, magpies, jays and jackdaws!) 

He's a lovely little fella - a woodie - weighing in at 275g. He'll be given seed and millet to peck but will also be supplemented with 2 x 20mls of porridge/farleys rusk mix per day just to make sure he is getting enough food to grow. When we are sure he is putting on sufficient weight, the porridge feeds will be dropped and he'll go into a bigger cage with other woodies of a similar age so that he can perfect his flying skills. They usually spend a week in this type of cage so that we can check their weight and spot any signs of any problems or weight loss.

Then it will be to the outside aviary with the big boys. The woodpigeons are placed in a very secluded aviary at the Centre - it is right around the back and there is no foot traffic from volunteers or staff etc only for food and water change and of course the medical staff checkover - this way the woodies develop their wildness and fear of humans which is what we want.  The aviary is very big,with branches and foliage and a dark covered area with nesting boxes( not that we encourage eggs!! although the ferals happily lay in the eaves of the building which Ted doesn't mind and we do have squabs hatching sometimes) which they probably spend about a month, being monitored and then set free. 

Sandra - you have done the right thing by Apollo - he will be fine and will be raised and released with others of his own kind. I know it was a long journey for you so thanks for bringing him over, thanks for the donation and I'll personally keep you updated on his progress as I am there every Friday night/Saturday.

He's a very lucky bird to have been found by very caring people.

Tania xx


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Tania, thank you for the update and Sandra many thanks for all you did for this little woodie.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the update, Tania....

well done Sandra,...


I love happy endings.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the update Tania and for the extra information on fattening up woodies. And thank you Sandra for all you did for the woodie . It is wonderful to know that he will learn to live among his own kind.

Cynthia


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Thanks for the update Tania and for the extra information on fattening up woodies.
> Cynthia


Yes Apollo is big enough to only need two extra feeds.

We have a daily sheet at the Centre which can show up to 6 feeds a day of porridge - we have a smallish squab ( all beak and yellow fluff) who is on 5 feeds, and some of the smaller babies or even adults that come in undernourished are put on the "porridge rounds" some having 4, 3, 2 or even 1 feed depending on their age, weight or general condition.

I actually learnt yesterday how to do them ( the 6.00pm feed is the busiest  with 12 pigeons/doves needing feeds - Kim advised that this feed is the most busy because it gives the pigeons/doves some nourishment to get them through the night just in case they haven't been eating well during the day ) , I learnt how to make up the feed, ensure that the syringes are rinsed with hibiscrub and then water afterwards and then to make sure every scrap of porridge is gone from the syringe before putting it back by the pigeon's cage. Poor pigeons, I wasn't very good at it for my first time, but I'll get better - luckily for Apollo, he'll be getting his porridge feeds from experts until next week - WHEN I WILL BE BACK!!

Tania x


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

*special people*

Hi everybody and Tania.
I am sorry I haven’t posted earlier but I have had to sort out stuff for my Ex, as his flat burnt down last night both he and his Budgie are fine. But as the saying goes Smoking really isn’t good for you.

I was really pleased to meet Tania in person, I hope to keep in touch with the London Wildcare for a long time to come. There will be other Apollos in future years. I never even knew there were places like this with people willing to give so much to animals who need help and understanding.

Everyone in the UK. Knows about the PDSA and RSPCA, they publicise themselves on the TV, it really never occurred to me before that smaller places need support as well. 

My sincere thanks to the wonderful people who give their time to help us troubled souls on this forum to sort lots of problems.
I only have a budgie but I would like to lurk around if it’s okay.
Best regards
Sandra


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Sandra, you don't need to have a pigeon in order to come and visit us. We would love to hear from you and your cockatiel.

Reti

Sorry to hear your ex's flad burned down, thank goodness he and the bird are alright.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Update on Apollo*

Apollo is still in the hospital ward as still a baby albeit a big baby. 

He is now down to one supplement feed a day as he is feeding himself and putting on weight. I did the 6.00 o clock porridge feeds last night and had 25 hungry pigeons to feed ( including 8 squabs!!) and can I just say that apart from a collard dove who was so tiny and delicate I was scared of hurting her, Apollo proved to be the most difficult bird to feed. Yes he is a woodie! but there are other woodie juveniles and an adult woodie who were easier to handle than Apollo, so Sandra, I really belive that Apollo is born to be wild. 

Anyway he is doing fine and I will let you next week how he is improving. 

Tania x


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for update, Tania. I am sure Sandra will be very pleased.

Reti


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

*Apollo*

Many thanks for your posts Tania

I don’t know whether to be happy or sad that Apollo is proving a little difficult. Ermmm,
I was never sure if he was indeed a HE but now I guess He must be. No self respecting Lady Woodie would turn her beak up at quality food on tap.
At least he will not be landing on ladies heads ,<chuckle>

Many many thanks again to the London Wildcare and to yourself for all your efforts.

I was trying to think of how feeding 25 would be and I can only come up with exhausting!.
Best regards
Sandra


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Sandra-A said:


> I was trying to think of how feeding 25 would be and I can only come up with exhausting!.
> Best regards
> Sandra


Well it took me an hour to do them all as they all have a separate feeding syringe ( obviously) and when you are done with feedingthe bird, the syringe has to be cleaned in water and hibiscrub, then flushed through with water and then you have to make sure there are no specks of porridge left!! You do have 3 jugs so that you can get a conveyor belt going. Kim says "in time you'll knock them all out in 10 minutes" - yeh right!!  

Also the squabs are on four feeds a day so that takes time - that's why they are training me up to do these things so that I can help out the clinical staff who have meds and woundcare and physio to do on different things. I'm referred to now as an "auxillary" which sounds quite good!!

Its good that Apollo is feisty - it means he won't like humans and that is better for him.... 

Tania x


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Apollo is still in the bird ward, still a little monkey to do a force feed on  - now only on one a day as feeding himself - and being very "wild" There are adults more quieter than him. But he is in good health..... 

Tania x


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am glad to hear he is becoming an expert eater, won't be long now and it will become a SOLO act, and he will graduate!  

Thanks for the update, Tania!


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

Many thanks again to you all for your continuing interest in "our" little Woodie. His squashed parent would never have guessed that they had hatched a future star.
loads of thanks to London Wildcare again and Tania.

My daughter and I have now received our paper work for being members of London Wildcare. we hope to be around for many years not just for while Apollo is being looked after.

I have been noticing peoples opinions of pigeons, I wonder why some really seem to dislike them. Our local council has put up nasty spiky things on a lot of buildings to prevent the "london" type of pigeons landing, okay so they do make a bit of mess, but I have seen piles of mess from under a Swift or Swallow nests. They are guilty of double standards. As for calling them Flying Rats well I can only think these people haven't ever had rats in their gardens. I had to rehome my pet chickens because of Rats. I tried everything to stop them coming into my garden, but as I back of to a cemetary it was impossible.

The local Woodies aren't any trouble to me, seeing them fitting under my bird table roof to pinch the goodies is wonderful. they line up in my trees when it is budgie clean out days, I throw the old seed onto the garden.

We also seem to have collected a small flock of smallish parrotkeets [sp] I have heard them calling for a while and saw them flying over last week. I'm not sure how I feel about these interlopers, are they wildlife or not?

regards
Sandra


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

You have parakeets in the wilds of UK? Wow! (are these budgierers from Australia or something like the Quaker parrot?) 

IMO, they are entitled to the same protection and care that you would extend to any other birds. More than likely, they will not last too long. Their bright colors and habitat requirements make it difficult for them to last in the wilds of a temperate country. Winters typically finish them off if there is too much cold weather. I imagine they are escapees or abandoned -- people get bored with their pet birds and just let them fly away.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Sandra-A said:


> We also seem to have collected a small flock of smallish parrotkeets [sp] I have heard them calling for a while and saw them flying over last week. I'm not sure how I feel about these interlopers, are they wildlife or not?
> 
> regards
> Sandra


Hi Sandra,

You are welcome for the updates and thanks for becoming members - its great to have support of people. 

The parakeets are green ring-necked parakeets - they are not native and are thought to have bred from escapees brought over as collections from the mountains of Pakistan - but they are getting a good stronghold over here now.

Some people love them , some don't  as being parrots they can be destructive. We have 5 in at London Wildcare at the moment with different problems. If you ever find one injured or not - look out for that ruby beak.... it can bite down to the bone.......

I'll update you on Apollo next wek.

Tania x


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Apollo doing really well. He is still inside but in a base cage ( which is a bigger cage on ground level) with 4 other woodies of a similar age. He is no longer on a force feed ( thanks goodness as he was a monster to do that on! ) and is now being observed for weightgain and that he can fly a bit.

Next step for him is to be moved to an outside aviary. At the moment the pigeon aviary has some large adult woodpigeons and some ferals in and when these have been released, Apollo and his mates and probably some ferals will be put outside usually for about 2 weeks to check that they can fly OK and are continuing to feed Ok and are building up their weight.

Every single bird that comes into London Wildcare is tested flighted individually, they ensure that weight gain is happening and that they are coping with the weather. Then when the weather permits ( we never release birds on wet days but wait for a fine day) and they are deemed fit and well and able to fly, they will be released. So we are waiting for some good weather to release the existing birds to make room for Apollo and co, but the UK is having its wettest summer since 1914 so not good at the moment!!

Anyway he is still doing good and I will let you know he goes on. 

Tania x


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the wonderful update, Tania.
Glad Apollo is continuing to do well and is not being "tortured" by force feedings anymore 

Reti


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

Many thanks again Tania. reading posts on here makes me even more proud that Apollo has got a chance in life with London Wildcare, there are so many more that would love to join him from all parts of the world it seems if it were humanly possible.

How I wish the "troubled" people trying to spread death and hurt could understand the peace and happiness I get just watching our small feathered friends.
My fondest wishes to all here

Sandra


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Apollo is now outside in the aviary. He is doing really well and being assessed for release which hopefully will be soon.

He is in good company with other woodpigeons and ferals too ( including my Pericles and Persephone) and one of CanaryJayne's birds too!! Pigeon Life members rule........ 

Tania x


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

SUCH A WARM AND FUZZY UPDATE, TANIA!!

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!  

BTW, I hear there is a LOT of RAIN across the pond...any of our members or you affected??? 

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Shi and Squeaks!

Yes lots of rain - I am OK - I live by the Thames but not where it is flooding. 

Our basesment at work was flooded though.

At London Wildcare, on the Friday which was the worst day - they had to bring in all the fox cubs ( over 80!!) and some of the birds as although their enclosures and avairies have roofing over parts of them, it doesnt cover all and the poor beasties were getting drenched  - I mean the birds would have died almost certainly...... Apparently it was no mean feat trying to cram everything indoors with cubs packed in 8 to a cage and birds - 20 to a cage - it was only for a few hours though and then they could go back outside!

Nightmare - apparently the UK is jammed between two weather systems with the jet stream going over us instead of above! 

Tania x


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*That Does It!!! 

We May Be In Our Monsoon Season But We Still Have Plenty Of Sun!   

Am Sending All The Sun I Can To Dry Up A Lot Of That Rain!!*   

Shi


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

My thoughts and prayers are with all of you (and all the critters) who are effected by those terrible floods. We have sure been seeing a lot of unusual weather systems/patterns.

We got stuck between the East coast and West coast seabreeze coming together (and believe me there isn't much room between coast lines)....and a cold front (yes, this time of year) coming down from the North , which resulted in alot of rain and hail and thunderstorms coming together in one area....like I haven't seen in a long time. We are definitely over the drought.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> My thoughts and prayers are with all of you (and all the critters) who are effected by those terrible floods.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

Many thanks for you taking the time to keep us updated on Apollo and his new family.

I know that you are working your socks off with all this extra weather, I can only offer my extra special thanks to you and all people who are involved in helping the furry innocents being hit hard out there.

best of all regards Tania
from Sandra


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Apollo is still in the aviary - not as grown up as some of his counterparts in the aviary who were released on Friday ( inluding My Persephone and Pericles and one of CanaryJayne's rescues).

Sandra - London Wildcare will make sure that Apollo is grown up enough and competent to survive before they will let him go. As you may have seen the hospital is in the middle of a great big park where loads of other birds live and he will be released there. 

I'll update this post when he has been released. I keep checking on him! 

Tania x


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

loads of thanks for the update Tania, at least Apollo may get the best of weather later, that is if we are going to get any great weather us not being Ducks. 

I hope things are getting back to normal at Wildcare after the wet weather?
Sandra


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Sandra,

Yes all back to normal now. It was only "that Friday" that was the most awful day  - the normal rainfall is OK.

Rest assured Apollo will be released on a fine day and a day when the next few days are predicted to be OK too. In his aviary at the back - there is a roof covered bit plus a little kind of enclosed area which some of the pigeons get into, so although he is outside getting acclimatised to the air/weather, he is able to shelter if he wants! 

Tania x


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Sandra,

Apollo still with us  - I know I was going to update when he has been released but he hasn't yet. He is a very big boy now but he doesn't have his white adult band on the back of his neck yet - so a bit more time required - he could possibly go shortly but again we need to wait ( yet again!! for some good weather.

There is a possibility he will still be with us on the Open day on 2/9/07 so if you are at a loose end you could come and visit - can't promise he'll still be there, but a possibility. Elaine is in charge of the aviary birds, so if I rememeber I'll ask her next week!! 

Tania xx


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

Dear Tania, Thanks again for your update. I think Apollo has decided to stay where he is best off, bet he pulls out those little white feathers each night and puts on his "Look I'm STILL only a baby, so FEED ME!
I do not have transport available, but it would be nice to see all your animals, so I shall try.
best regards to all at Wildcare.
Sandra


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Sandra,

Apollo still with us.............. Not quite heavy enough to go yet but should be Ok in a week or so hopefully.......... 

We had a lot of pigeons in the aviary that were recently weighed and some have been released but Apollo didn't make the grade re weight. 

I don't think there is any problem with him - he just isn't eating enough to ensure his freedom. We do have an awful lot of pigeons and woodpigeons in at the moment ( woodie babies are arriving daily now) and so there are more than normal numbers in the aviary, but I am sure he will taste freedom very shortly. 

Tania x


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## Sandra-A (Jun 7, 2007)

Hi Tania
Told you. Apollo knows which side his bread is buttered, <grin> and now even better he gets to boss newbies around, he's going to stay as long as he can  

Thanks for the raffle tickets, I am pleased to be able to help out a little.
Sandra


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