# Anyone use winners cup feed?



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone uses or has used Winners Cup Pigeon Feed from Volkman Seed Factory, Ceres, CA. There is a place locally which is selling it, 50 lbs for $28.36 (plus tax) Canadian. 

It's the 16% Pigeon Gold mix. Would this mix be good for breeding or racing?

Did you like it? Dislike it? 

If its lacking something, what should I add to it to use it for racing? 

http://www.seedfactory.com/pigeon.html

http://www.seedfactory.com/Pigeon-Popcorn-Products/pigeon-popcorn-products-15-5-gold-popcorn.html


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

I have *NOT* used this mix for Pigeons, however, I have used this company for various parrots in several pet retail stores. 
I was extremely happy with it *back then* 15 - 20 yrs ago. The birds all took to it well, they actually ended up with better feathers and color. They also seemed much happier. I fed everything from parolets to large macaws on it (all hookbills). 
It would be one of the first companies I would consider if I could get it out this way easily. (nothing comes out here easily lol).


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

Our club buys their feed. I personally use the 14% feed along with what they call "Super Scratch". Other club members use the 14% and what they call "TMC". The Super Scratch and TMC come in 75 # bags and cost about what the 50 # bags of 14% cost. A guy in town who raises fancy birds buys the 16 % and he is pleased with it. The feed we get is clean and dust-free. One member of our club buys the 50# bags of whole corn and it also is very clean.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

So do you think that 16% is too much for racing pigeons? Flying team, not breeders? The picture of the seeds in the mix look really similar to the other mixes out there made specifically for flying racing pigeons.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I think 16% is too much for racing. Although most in my club use a 16% year round. I think 12-14 is better for racing


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

I agree that 16% is too much. I use 14% as does the guys I fly against. I have been racing on and off since 1965 and found that the 14% is the best for me. I tried the 16% for one season and it didn't seem to make any difference but sure increased my feed bill! You have to use what works for you.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

The mixes look high quality but I would agree that 16% protein is too high for racing. You would be able to use those mixes as a base and tweak them for racing. Its real important to look at the fat content as well as the protein. Proteins are for building such as recovery from a race , molting ,breeding, baby growth etc. Fats are for energy, ie flying /racing. 
I have been studying this for some time and don't know a lot but have come across this information in the past few months. As best as I could find sprint/middle distance feed mix should be around 12% protein, 4% fats , and around 64% carbs. Middle /long distance the mix should be around 7.8 % fats , 57% carbs and 14.% protein. This would give you a good base to start with. Its also important to have a good omega 3 and 6 ratio too. Start with 5:1 for sprint races and 4:1 for middle /long distance races. 
You must remember that a pigeon uses liver stored sugars when taking offs about 15 minutes of flight only and will burn Carbohydrates for the first hour of flight , then they use fats for the hours of flight in longer races or training over 1 hour. I've read around 3 grams of fat per hour of flight , so if a bird eat on average 200 grams of feed per week you will need to make sure it has the proper amounts of fat stored in its body before the race . A average pigeon can store around 27 grams of fat through out it body without being over weight. If you figure 3 grams of fat per hour for a 200 miles race at 40 mph , is 5 hours of flight so your bird needs 15 grams of stored fat to get home without burning its own proteins ( muscle) . You can accomplish this loading with the last 3 or 4 feeding , say starting on Thursday morning till Friday morning if you feed twice a day, by adding a few more fatty seed or even an oil to the feed directly could raise the fat content 1%. If you feed once a day or the distance is longer you will need to load the birds starting on Tuesday or Wednesday depends on the distance and wind speed/direction etc. If you over load the bird and they don't use all the stored fats while racing you will need to feed a lesser quality feed on Sunday and Monday to help the birds burn off the extra fat so they don't get too heavy. Then you can start the process all over on Tuesday up to the race day for loading of fats ( fuel for flight). Also remember that a pigeon needs 24 + hour of digestion before the feed eaten becomes available energy.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I wanted to add and clarify that I was talking about the 6 to 3 fatty acids ratio .

Adding too much sunflower or safflower seeds or these oils will distort the ratio because of the large amounts of omega 6 in these seeds. Cabbage , rape , and flax have a better percentages of 6 to 3 but lack fiber so be careful not to over do these seed or you will give your birds loose droppings.

If anyone is interested I have 2 examples of feed mixes which I have read have a good Omega ratio. Of course no mix will ever be perfect or meet the needs of all situations when it comes to racing mixes.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

This is great info Eric k - thank you! While I too thought about 'cutting' down the 'sweet feed' as I refer to it, I also wondered if *maybe* some feed the 'sweeter' feed due to location. Example, I'd want my birds to have more 'heat' (fat) in their feed in Montana than in Florida. Thoughts on this??


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Silver Wings said:


> This is great info Eric k - thank you! While I too thought about 'cutting' down the 'sweet feed' as I refer to it, I also wondered if *maybe* some feed the 'sweeter' feed due to location. Example, I'd want my birds to have more 'heat' (fat) in their feed in Montana than in Florida. Thoughts on this??


Winters are tricky when the temps get well below 0. I have been keeping my birds on a balanced pellet most of the winter , Its hard for them to over eat with a fat at 3%. Now that I have a few babies I have been adding corn so the young can learn to eat bigger seeds . Corn is also a good grain for winter but if fed too much your birds will gain weight too easily and the poop turns a green color. Some guys will give straight barley on Monday and Tuesday during the winter to keep the birds lean . My birds hate barley so I seldom use it. I believe the balanced pellet is the perfect feed for winter because you can monitor the nutritional input very closely. I do how ever keep peanuts around as a treat for the breeders so they build and keep a good trust in me when I enter my breeder section. I shake the bucket and feed a few hand full of peanuts every few days and even leave a small amount by the nest bowls for the sitting birds. 
One of my biggest mistakes when I started was to always feed my best feed all year , it cost more but I wanted to do right for the birds but it backfired and I always had fat birds in the spring and my breeders got fat too. This year I have kept the breeders on a low fat pellet around 3 % and they look great. In fact all my old birds have been eating these pellets all winter. I just started to add corn and I switch to add in a chicken laying pellet around 16% protein but lower fat and with a small amount of corn it should lower the protein and raise the fat a little. I'm hoping by the end of the month to have birds out flying. Corn is one of the best cereal grains and does help "heat" the birds in the winter as you said.
like I said before in the other post you need not feed you best grains all the time , this is better for the birds and by adjusting the protein higher when needed like the day of returning race birds ,breeding or molting etc. and lowering the protein and fat mix on the off days Sunday night , Monday, and Tuesday morning you will save money and help your birds in the process. Most people refer this to a depurative feed which could be just barley or a combo of milo, corn ,safflower, and maybe a few other seed I can't think of right now. In general a lesser quality feed.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Would it be alright to use the 16% winners cup feed as the base feed, and then add what ever grains to the mix? Maybe use the winners cup as 70% of the feed, and add the rest 25% as grains they'll need for the week (more protein, fat, or carbs?) 



*What are your thoughts on these pellets:*

Made by a local company named Otter Co-op. 20 kg bags for about $18.50 Canadian.

Protein minimum 18%
Fat minimum 3%
Crude fibre maximum 0.18%
Calcium (actual percentage) 0.90%
Phosphorus (actual percentage) 0.70%
Vitamin A (minimum Iu/kg) 15,000
Vitamin D (minimum Iu/kg) 5,000
Vitamin E (minimum Iu/kg) 65

All the percentages are per kilogram.

Due to the high protein percentage, I'm assuming these pellets would be good for breeding, supplemented by grains?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I think those pellets would be fine for breeding . My only concern and that's a small one is if the pellets are from animal meat and fats . I have been feeding the Green and Gold and am a where that they contain Pig fat as their source of fats. I'm a little concerned by the lack of information about the source in my pellets and wonder if the pig fat is a long chain amino or a short chain amino. 

I believe your feed choice with the winner cup will work just fine too , there is no perfect feed on the market anywhere you just need the best quality at a fair price . You can tweak that feed to suit your birds needs , more than likely your mixing will be to cut the protein down from 16% and add fat and carbohydrates to the mix. Is there a list of grains you have available in your area?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Revolution Loft ,If you want I can PM you a link that will lead you to a more modern way of thinking on feeding of racing pigeons.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

All very interesting Eric K. I actually enjoy running, so a lot of what you are saying makes sense to me as a runner. I know I don't want to carb too so much, but I do want protein for fuel and repair around race time. I have baby homers coming as soon as the parents say it's time for them to go. So with negative temps and windchills that are pretty nasty, I was thinking I might need to feed them a slightly 'hotter' food til the temps warm up, and if need be, bring the 'hotter' food again when temps drop. Here in Montana we've been in the 50s but also -20... therefore the birds are really messed up thinking "hey it's time to breed" to only see the next week's temps drop fast and hard... I'm just worried without any parents at all that the chicks will not do well. Again, we are leaving them with the parents until they no longer sit on them or feed them....

This is my first homer chick rodeo... So I'm likely fretting more than need be...


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Silver Wings, do you have the parents or are you just getting the babies from someone when they are weaned from the nest. They should be around 30 days old before you get them so my guess would be that they will already be eating solid grain themselves and fully feathered . If you get them and are worried about the cold ,I would put them on whole corn , as much as they want twice a day . That is one of the best grains to wean babies anyway , if they can't eat corn on their own they should still be with at least the Daddy bird to finish them off before you take them away from the nest area. If you do have the parents you could start feeding them near the nest so the young will see the parents eating and start pecking at the feed too. When you do get them I would have about 4 or 5 inches of straw on the floor so that will help them stay warm. I have some young and are only half grown and its 5 degrees out and the parents weren't even sitting on them just 15 minutes ago. 

Just so you know for the future the temperatures have little to do with the breeding process its more about the hours of day light that bring the birds to the breeding mood and yes these swings and sub 0 temps have been hard on all of us trying to breed early.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey Eric, it would be great if you sent me the information!


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

ERIC K said:


> 1) Silver Wings, do you have the parents or are you just getting the babies from someone when they are weaned from the nest. They should be around 30 days old before you get them so my guess would be that they will already be eating solid grain themselves and fully feathered .
> 
> 2) If you get them and are worried about the cold ,I would put them on whole corn , as much as they want twice a day . That is one of the best grains to wean babies anyway , if they can't eat corn on their own they should still be with at least the Daddy bird to finish them off before you take them away from the nest area. If you do have the parents you could start feeding them near the nest so the young will see the parents eating and start pecking at the feed too.
> 
> ...



1) Just the babies, we should have fully feathered birds when they arrive (yup about 30 days). We wish to transfer them from one side of the village to mine ASAP as they are homers, and we do not wish for them to return to where they were hatched. I've kept an open mind as a friend is gifting me a small flock, if I need to bring the parents out with the babes we will. I suspect they will have seen the parents eating corn for a day or so before the transfer takes place.

2) Good to know the corn is the best thing for them right now, that's what I had suspected but could not find confirmation of. Thank you.

3) Yes, bought 3 bales of straw to work through so only the best straw goes into the roost (The roost sits in a large flight aviary - 25'x12'). Currently this week we are in near negative temps during the day, and absolutely neg temps at night. I too am at 5*F at the moment mid day, this will be one of our better days til the weekend). Windchills are -40 but of course the roosting box will stop this effect....

4) Yes, we had so many cloudy days filled with snow that lifted into bright blue zero cloud days for about 3 - 5 days that they went crazy celebrating in the roost lol. So that made them think that it was time. Also, usually our snow pack melts quickly, this winter it has not, so it is super bright out with so much snow on the ground...


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

At 30 days your birds should be fine. Yes corn is a good cold weather feed and so is milo, oats, wheat, rice, millet, white milo, yellow and green peas. Its just that corn has more sugars than the rest of the grain I listed and sugars are the fastest burning fuel also good for short racing and fast flying but not a good fuel for long distance flights or hot temps where pigeons simply wouldn't eat it very well when it hot out.

Just make sure you have small vents for fresh air for your new babies but try to keep the drafts to a minimum . I sometimes use plain clear plastic on wire doors and aviaries when it real cold or windy. 

Will send you a PM soon.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Sent you both a PM if you still can't open it I will try something different. Let me know if you get it.


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## ThePigeonShack (Jun 14, 2012)

I use their feed 16% during winter season and I think 12 % other seasons


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I have used it a few times. I like the 14% it has some light grains in it and not loaded with peas. I use a base mix that is probably pretty good for racing also. I usually use Excello, but you could use any 14% or 16% feed. 

Everyday mix/offseason (Fills up a big rubbermaid)
1 bag of breeder 16%
1 bag of 14% pigeon mix
1 bag whole corn
1 bag wheat or barley (half and half if I want to store 1/2 bag of each)

I like the look of the 14% winners cup over the excello. The excello is loaded with peas. That is why I dilute it down. Both are very clean grains. 

Breeding mix
2 bags breeder 16%
1 bag 14% mix
added safflower
sometimes brewers yeast and oils
Vitamines
I throw the 14% in because not all birds are pumping babies all time. Gives them a good variety to pick through. 


Change water daily
Grit a few times a week


Everyday mix comes to about a 12% or 13% mix, high in carbs low in fat. Also lowers the cost of feed because corn and wheat/barley are about half the price. Ideas came from Secrets of Champions the food section. I sometimes get the breeding mix with no corn and will add 1/2 a bag to the breeding mix.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Randy , Freddy and Jacque Vandenheede are super Champions of Belgium and they claim to buy a few different mixes and mix those together and feed free choice . I guess your not too far off but I've have been told not to feed too much wheat because its high in phytanic acid which could block absorption of Iron and other minerals , say not over 20% wheat but that just what I've heard. 

I see the Excello and Winners cup are probably very good feeds. A group of us out here are going with the Wheatland feed this year because we are getting a deal on the shipping . I don't think there is a perfect mix anywhere so feeding race birds is a learning process which is more trial and error unless you have a very good mentor that has made the mistakes himself before .


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

ERIC K said:


> At 30 days your birds should be fine. ...
> 
> Just make sure you have small vents for fresh air for your new babies but try to keep the drafts to a minimum . I sometimes use plain clear plastic on wire doors and aviaries when it real cold or windy.
> 
> Will send you a PM soon.



Thanks for all your thoughts.
Yes, eventually when the weather breaks, we will get front and side doors on. Each door has a special hinged 'window' of 8x10. When you open the hinged wood window, there is a piece of clear plexiglass to stop drafts. Removing the plexiglass, you have hardware cloth, for ventilation on better days. Right now it's tarped for snow protection til the doors go on. Once I can un tarp it, I'll post photos.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

gbhman said:


> I remember reading about this in the past... and it's actually phytic acid, and not phytanic acid as that is something different. Anyways, as I recall grains such as corn and oats are actually higher in phytic acid than wheat. I don't really think this is something you need to worry about


Yes I did used the wrong word .Thanks for the help. It looks like most carbohydrate rich grains contain this acid but to what levels I have no idea. If you have a chart of some sorts I would love to see it . I have always fed wheat in some amounts to my birds but have heard and read several times not to over do the wheat . If you look at the numbers for wheat. Protein 15, Carbs 70, fib 2.6, fat 1.8 . Looks good on paper except for its low fat content.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

What about the guy who wins using the same feed year round?


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## Rod Hultquist (Aug 23, 2009)

ERIC K said:


> I think those pellets would be fine for breeding . My only concern and that's a small one is if the pellets are from animal meat and fats . I have been feeding the Green and Gold and am a where that they contain Pig fat as their source of fats. I'm a little concerned by the lack of information about the source in my pellets and *wonder if the pig fat is a long chain amino or a short chain amino. *I believe your feed choice with the winner cup will work just fine too , there is no perfect feed on the market anywhere you just need the best quality at a fair price . You can tweak that feed to suit your birds needs , more than likely your mixing will be to cut the protein down from 16% and add fat and carbohydrates to the mix. Is there a list of grains you have available in your area?


I've read where some European flyers use sheep's fat for the long and extreme long races because it has the long chain fatty acids.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Rod Hultquist said:


> I've read where some European flyers use sheep's fat for the long and extreme long races because it has the long chain fatty acids.


Yes I have heard that too . I think Gerard Koopman started the sheep fat pellets but I have no experience with them myself and don't know anyone who admits to use them. I have read that the long chain sheep fats don't help a bird in flight until it has been flying for over 10 hours so if they do help it would be like you said extreme long distance. You would also need to get the birds to eat them for a few days before being sent to said races. If your a grain feeder this might be a chore . Also if you over load a bird with fats that are only good after 10 hours of flight would there be enough room for the fat in a bird to fly the first 1 to 9 hours ? 

If anyone wanted to try sheep fat pellets I believe Global Pigeon supply in Georgia sells them.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

This is a mix from Matador feed company . I believe some of the best mixes I have seen on the market today , unfortunately they are based in Germany and the mix is not available in the US. This is one of their distance mixes.

Premium Long distance 


A mixture for the heavy work; ideal for one day long distance and overnight racers. Also the nest method can be raced in optimally using this mixture. Premium Long Distance contains a very high percentage of fats and a higher percentage of protein. It prevents shortages for your long distance pigeon.




Composition:


Marano maize
French red maize
Cribs maize
Pigeon wheat
Milo corn
White Dari
Pealed oats
Paddy rice
Safflower
Sunflower seed
Linseed / Flax 
Rape seed
Hemp
Millet yellow
Buckwheat
Vetches
Mung beans
Toasted soybeans
Maple peas
Green peas
Yellow peas
Lintels

Contents:

Raw protein 15,8% 
Raw fat 9,3%
Carbohydrates 53,9%
Raw fibre 6,7%
Kcal 3346
Omega ratio 4:1


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

If anyone was looking for information or a feeding plan you could go to the Matador web site and read their day to day feeding recommendations under the "plans" heading , of course it would be with their feed but a person could come close you were mixing your own feeds.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ERIC K said:


> Randy , Freddy and Jacque Vandenheede are super Champions of Belgium and they claim to buy a few different mixes and mix those together and feed free choice . I guess your not too far off but I've have been told not to feed too much wheat because its high in phytanic acid which could block absorption of Iron and other minerals , say not over 20% wheat but that just what I've heard.
> 
> I see the Excello and Winners cup are probably very good feeds. A group of us out here are going with the Wheatland feed this year because we are getting a deal on the shipping . I don't think there is a perfect mix anywhere so feeding race birds is a learning process which is more trial and error unless you have a very good mentor that has made the mistakes himself before .


Good to know about the wheat. I will cut it down with barley and wheat mixed to lower the percentage.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Milo not barley to mix it down. I used to use wild bird food without corn from Purina that was a mix between millet, milo, wheat, and sunflower seeds at 11% but it went up to $20 a bag. Not a great deal. I like the fact that the breeder mix give a good variety of grains. Once thinned down with 14% premium feed and the lower protein corn, wheat and milo, you get a good mix around 12-13% protein, high in Carbs. Nice everyday mix and even a race mix. When mixed all together it comes to about $20 a bag. Not bad for a race mix/daily mix with a bunch of grains in it. I don't fly so this becomes my mix outside of breeding season.


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## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

Leach, Matador, Jones, Kaytee and the list goes on forever. How do you guys know what feed is the real deal for racing birds? If you look at the list of ingredients some are very similar. Is it the manufacture that makes the difference?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

pooch88 said:


> Leach, Matador, Jones, Kaytee and the list goes on forever. How do you guys know what feed is the real deal for racing birds? If you look at the list of ingredients some are very similar. Is it the manufacture that makes the difference?


There are a lot of good quality feed out there but you will in time learn how to feed a race pigeon. Different times of the year require different things . 
The basics are that proteins are for building, which is breeding , molting, growing and recover from a race. Carbs are for short flights and one form of energy, and fats are the main fuel of longer flights over 1 hour. 
So you need to look at the balance of the feed and do some reading so you can add thing when needed or lighten up the feed when needed. When birds are not in the building stage and not in the heavy training stage or racing they don't need the high performance feed all week remember a pigeon must be buoyant in the hand, not light or skinny . It takes time to get it right but you can learn these very important thing about feeding. In winter you will need a basic feed too. not to high in fat or protein with higher in fiber.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Phytic acid is a substance that is found in many foods individuals consume on a daily basis. This substance is most commonly found among grains, brans and seeds. When consumed, phytic acid will combine to minerals such as calcium, zinc and iron in the body. The combination of phytic acid to these minerals lowers the body's level of calcium, zinc and iron. According to Healthy Eating Politics.com, over-consumption of products with phytic acid can result in vitamin and mineral deficiencies within the body.


Wheat Bran

According to Allaboutfood.org, wheat bran is among the foods with highest concentrations of phytic acid. Wheat bran contains a phytic acid concentration of 3,610 mg per 100 g. Wheat bran is a very common component of breads, cereals and pastas. According to World's' Healthiest Foods, consumption of whole grain has several health benefits such as gastrointestinal health due to the high fiber content. The presence of phytic acid, however, can negate some of the health benefits due to its capability of binding with certain minerals of the body.
Peanuts

Peanuts contain a very high concentration of phytic acid. Peanuts contain a phytic acid concentration of 1,336 mg per 100 g. According to World's Healthiest Foods, consumption of peanuts may have beneficial health benefits such as cardiovascular health and cancer prevention due to their high levels of antioxidants. Over-consumption of peanuts may negate the positive effects due to the presence of phytic acid.

Soybeans

Soybeans also contain a very high concentration of phytic acid. Soybeans contain a phytic acid content of 1,250 mg per 100g. World's Healthiest Foods says that soybeans are among the most important foods in the country due to the high levels of fiber, proteins, essential fatty acids and other vitamins and minerals. Soybeans contain the same content of protein as red meat and are much lower in calories and fat content than red meat. Individuals should be aware that the presence of phytic acid in soybeans can negate some of the health benefits.


Corn

Corn is a rich source of phytic acid. Corn contains a phytic acid concentration of 940 mg per 100 g. It also contains high concentrations of the essential substances of folate and beta cryptoxanthin which are necessary for lung and cardiovascular well being. The phytic acid contained in corn may lessen some of the health benefits associated with corn.

Of course this was written for humans and I'm no scientist just going by what I read . All I was saying  was I personally wouldn't over do the wheat. The wild pigeons around Superior all eat wheat by the tons, because it is the most plentiful grain spilled from the rail cars and ship conveyors but I wouldn't bet a dime on them in a race.


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