# Note from my town



## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

Guys I need some help. I live in Saddle Brook NJ and I've received a noticed from my town that, according to Saddle Brook Township Ordinance I CANNOT have a pigeon coupe in my backyard and that I have to take it down in the next 10 days! They said only people who are allowed to have pigeons are people who inherited them from previous generations. Apparently one of my neighbors called with concern about health reasons.

How can I fight them, any pigeon lawyer around I don't want to give up on my pigeons!


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

No lawyer here but did the letter cite the law or the ordinance that stated you cant have pigeons? We might need to see it. A letter can be sent if the town doesnt want to deal with you but it has to be backed up. They might see it easier to deal with one and not with the masses that dont have pigeons.


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

This is what the note states:

It has come to the attention of the Township of Saddle Brook Board of Health office that you have a pigeon coupe in your backyard. Please not that, according to Saddle Brook Twonship's Ordinance, you cannot have a pigeon coupe. It must be taken down within the next ten days.

If you fail to abide by this ordinance, you will be subject to a summons and fined. If you have any questions, please feel free to call.


That is it.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

That stinks. Please check on the law thoroughly though, and also what defines a coop and exactly how it is written. Let them know they are pets, not livestock, if that helps. Any idea who sent the complaint? I would think talking face to face (in a nice way), showing off the birds etc. might go a long way towards alleviating concerns but sounds like it is past that at this point. Wish you the best of luck!!


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

zgrywusek said:


> This is what the note states:
> 
> It has come to the attention of the Township of Saddle Brook Board of Health office that you have a pigeon coupe in your backyard. Please not that, according to Saddle Brook Twonship's Ordinance, you cannot have a pigeon coupe. It must be taken down within the next ten days.
> 
> ...


Did the note come on an official township letterhead? Was the word coop spelled as written, "coupe. Was Twonship really spelled that way? 

I am not trying to embarrass you but if the letter came without an official letterhead, and the words were mis-spelled as noted, this could be a fake from one neighbor who doesn't like the birds, or maybe you. Call or contact someone on the town board and/or look up the ordinance yourself. Do it soon so as to not get into fines, etc if it is on the up and up.


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

Those were my typos as I'm pissed off. It did came in a letterhead. I also did call them to confirm. Apparently one of my neighbors call it in as a health concern.


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

but coop was spelled as "coupe"


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I don't blame you one bit for being pissed off. I would certainly not appreciate a neighbor that goes behind my back without talking over the concerns first. I guess I don't have anything else to suggest


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

I called one of my clients who is a lawyer and he gave me some ideas as to how to approach this. I will need to get a copy of that Ordinance and show it to him then I'll go from there.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Good luck and please keep us posted.

Dave


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes, all the best in your endeavours to fight this. Be sure and stress to the lawyer that they are "pets", also could you set up a system that is not like a loft set-up, how many birds do you have, can you take pictures of the residence the pigeons are in, showing how clean they are? Would joining a "fancy pigeon association" give you any rights legally to possess a certain number of pigeons? Lodge some information with the lawyer that states scientifically that pigeons kept clean are no more of a health hazzard than any other animal. Consult your by-laws with the lawyer regarding possessing pigions as a pigeon fancier. All the best.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

The letter it's not a professional one. It's like the neighbour had a friend from the _City/Town_ and he wrote it so that you remove the coop. First of all, if there are any health reasons, no one came to inspect it. So the letter is unreasonable to ask you that. And then they state than if you inherited the pigeons...., then it's fine...I don't think it's a real letter from the Town. Doesn't make sense. Usually if you do not comply with a law, then they would point out what law you are breaking.
Who signed it? Any contact number?


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

I wish you the best of luck with this.I hope you win!


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## newday (Dec 12, 2004)

*Letter*

Contact the NPA and AU and ask for help.


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

Just to give you guys some updates. The ordinance is real, if you guys want to go to saddlebrooknj.us and then go to e360 code new site opens and then type in Pigeons it there states that keeping piegons in Saddle Brook is prohibited. My lawyer spoke with city clerk and the health inspector both were nice but unfortunately cannot do anything about it. They did suggest that sending a letter to the Mayor of SB might give me some closure/and or help with the case. The law also states as per my lawyer that whom ever had pigeons before law was passed can keep and continue to keep pigeons. My town will have a meeting November 8th so I have some time in typing the letter which my lawyer will also check. I got extension until December 15th to keep my pigeons. If November meeting happens and mayor actually reads it I have some chances if not it will be a closed deal.....

Will keep you posted and want to thank all of you for help and suggestions.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Good luck. Can you somehow prove you have them before the law was passed. May be some nice neighbours who had pigeons could say they gave the pigeons to you. Might by silly from me asking this...but this is the loop hole you can keep your pigeons.


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

I sure do hope that you get to keep your pigeons.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dima said:


> Good luck. Can you somehow prove you have them before the law was passed. May be some nice neighbours who had pigeons could say they gave the pigeons to you. Might by silly from me asking this...but this is the loop hole you can keep your pigeons.


I would try something like this.
How long have you had your birds and when was the ordinance written? I'd say I had them inside, and just recently made an outside area for them.


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

Msfreebird - ordinance was adopted in 1987

I'm impatiently waiting for my judgement day. I've sent a letter to city council and the mayor of my town. November 8th is the town's meeting which they said my matter will be discussed.
Wish me and my pigeons luck!


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Good luck. Nov 8th in Eastern Europe is celebrated the Archangel Michael, which is well know for the angel of Justice. I pray he protects you and your pigeons.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Truly hoping for a decision in your favour, BHenderson, LOL.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

What's Happened With The Town Meeting?


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## Country84 (Nov 12, 2012)

How many do you have? I would build a "storage building" that is in accordance with town code and tint the windows and convert it to a loft...or just move and stop paying taxes to a town that doesnt allow someone to posess their own pets or freedom for that matter!


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

almondman said:


> Did the note come on an official township letterhead? Was the word coop spelled as written, "coupe. Was Twonship really spelled that way?
> 
> I am not trying to embarrass you but if the letter came without an official letterhead, and the words were mis-spelled as noted, this could be a fake from one neighbor who doesn't like the birds, or maybe you. Call or contact someone on the town board and/or look up the ordinance yourself. Do it soon so as to not get into fines, etc if it is on the up and up.


exactly my sentiments , this letter is poorly written imo and sounds very brief and unofficial for my liking, i would ring the number and trust your judgement, somethink affoot i believe .sorry just read that it was a real letter, well that is bad news, hope you win .


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

Country84 it is easy said that done. Bought the house 1 year ago not moving until all bills are paid.

Jeff Houghton - letter is real my lawyer called and verified it. 

UPDATE: As you may know I wrote a letter to the town, however during that time hurricane sandy was here and I honestly think they ignored my letter. I also left several voice mails to call me back and got no answer back. My lawyer asked me to wait another week and then start calling again, send a letter and call mayors personal cell which I do have. They ignoring me and that really makes me upset, I never in my life experienced something like that. How town's officials could be so ignorant and not responsive. My guess is you have to be born rich and got family in the politics then every law is bent. As to my pigeons they are doing great, got 6 young, in worst case scenario my good friend who has and is allowed to have pigeons in town next to me will take all my birds and take care of them.


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## Country84 (Nov 12, 2012)

Lol i was more or less kidding about the moving, thats not reasonable at all. But i really hope they let you keep them, i havent even had mine a week, and i love them i couldnt imagine someone telling me to get rid of them! Good luck to you friend!


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

Just giving another update on this: I have not heard a single word from the town. After sending a letter to the town's Mayor and Council they were to discuss my issue November 8th but Hurricane Sandy hit NJ pretty hard and they moved it to Dec 10th. From my town's website I see that they had my issue listed for discussion. I supposed to give up my birds by December 15th but since they did not wrote me a letter I think they still considering the pros/cons, maybe they will write me for Christmas and that would be the best gift ever if I can keep them. I also met a guy in my town and we spoke last night and he told me not to give up and do what I can to talk them through this process. He has had pigeons since 1978 and pays permit every year. Also past health inspector had pigeons as well.

For now that is all.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you for the update. It sounds very promising for you. Good luck!


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

gbhman - completely nothing. I have received no word from the town. Its been few months now and I've been ignored. That is why I will NOT ask what is going on just keep on enjoying my pigeons and breed them. If something comes up again I'll refuse to cooperate due to ignorance from the town's side.


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

So the day has come... The township of Saddle Brook sent me a final warning which will follow by a fine and then court. I have until May 15th to remove all my pigeons and bring down my coop. I have spoken with the Mayor of the town and she could not help me as it was the city council to make that decision. I am simply crushed. It was the worst thing I've made moving to a town like that. I gave all my pigeons to my uncle who lives next town and that town is allowed to keep pigeons.

I wonder if I ask you all to write to The Council of Saddle Brook a simple one page letter would that help? I need any help I can get and if all write something about pigeons and how important they are in their lives maybe the will change their mind... What do you guys think? More letters I get perhaps they can change their mind.. email me at [email protected] if you're willing to help out.

Thank you again.

Best,

Adam


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear that they would not work with you .


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## CMH1211 (Mar 10, 2013)

I would suggest getting ppl from ur townnon ur side... im in florida my vote would not count towards u keeping ur pigeon. It was once illegal here too. I would research what was done here to make it a legal sport and go from there.

Research everything about pigeons such as cleanliness issues and rumors. Defeating ignorance is key. I took law for 2 years and dropped out. I quit because the system works in ways u and I will never understand. My logical mind could not deal with the way laws are set into place. If u pay taxes in ur town then ur voice must be made heard. Do not let it fall on deaf ears. Anger will not solve anything, come up with logical reasons why u keep pigeons and how they are not a health issue. Tell them u would like a health inspector to inspect ur loft for diseases. Vaccinate or have ur birds vaccinated against all major know diseases. 

If you complain and have no proof it is the equivalent to a toddler not getting his way. U have to think like these people. U dont "need" pigeons. They are a luxury in ur town. Make them know that u deserve to own them with hard facts. Your opinion means nothing to people whos opinions actually matter. Its unfortunate but in the end they hold the decision in there hands. Facts will help u friend. GL


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## zgrywusek (Nov 21, 2011)

To all who care:

I decided to go to one of the towns meetings and took my daughter with me etc... Spoke to the city council and they yet again moved the date to June 11th pending decision in my case. I think they are just waiting for the "bad neighbour" to call in and start complaining. Meanwhile I got two homers left and they are free flying daily. Its so nice to see how these birds fly and then come back.

I still hope for the best.


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

lets hope for the best


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

It may also be that they are really just wanting this issue "to go away" and do wish you all the best. Do not give up. I would take pictures of my birds and that would include you and your daughter holding and interacting with them. Make them see the birds on a more personal level. Shoot a little video that you can present of the birds? Is that possible and include friends in it interacting also with the birds. Shoot pics of your loft show how clean it is. I would even walk into the meeting next time with a clear, see-through bag of garbage which I had picked up on the way to the meeting and explain. "This is trash, which, as I walked here I collected, off the street. It is NON-BIODEGRADABLE, and pose a REAL AND GENUINE PROBLEM TO SOCIETY, thrown onto our streets by human beings. I have with me, pictures of my loft, showing it is very clean and presents no health threat to anyone. The birds which I have are PETS which I have had in my possession for several years. These pictures demonstrate the love I have for and care I take of my PETS who are not a treat in anyway, shape or form to the neighbour who lodged this complaint. I would very much appreciate being allowed to show these pics and video before this honourable council makes a decision in this matter....." lol and best of luck!


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## njhntr (Jun 5, 2012)

*Does it say pigeons or fowl*

Does it say pigeons or fowl?
Had kind of same problem and had to prove
that pigeons are not FOWL.
Our laes said fowl and glad to say I now have my 
pigeons
research, photos and letters from as many neighbors
as you can get.
Be polite when presenting infomation
clean clean clean invite them over to see how you care for birds
AU might be able to help contact them even if you dont belong
good luck


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

spiritflys said:


> It may also be that they are really just wanting this issue "to go away" and do wish you all the best. Do not give up. I would take pictures of my birds and that would include you and your daughter holding and interacting with them. Make them see the birds on a more personal level. Shoot a little video that you can present of the birds? Is that possible and include friends in it interacting also with the birds. Shoot pics of your loft show how clean it is. I would even walk into the meeting next time with a clear, see-through bag of garbage which I had picked up on the way to the meeting and explain. "This is trash, which, as I walked here I collected, off the street. It is NON-BIODEGRADABLE, and pose a REAL AND GENUINE PROBLEM TO SOCIETY, thrown onto our streets by human beings. I have with me, pictures of my loft, showing it is very clean and presents no health threat to anyone. The birds which I have are PETS which I have had in my possession for several years. These pictures demonstrate the love I have for and care I take of my PETS who are not a treat in anyway, shape or form to the neighbour who lodged this complaint. I would very much appreciate being allowed to show these pics and video before this honourable council makes a decision in this matter....." lol and best of luck!


Very good idea with the presentation of pigeons, loft pics and comparison of "society's" garbage. 

It is very important to present them a part of family and the emotional consequence if they are not part of your fam. life


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

zgrywusek said:


> So the day has come... The township of Saddle Brook sent me a final warning which will follow by a fine and then court. I have until May 15th to remove all my pigeons and bring down my coop. I have spoken with the Mayor of the town and she could not help me as it was the city council to make that decision. I am simply crushed. It was the worst thing I've made moving to a town like that. I gave all my pigeons to my uncle who lives next town and that town is allowed to keep pigeons.
> 
> I wonder if I ask you all to write to The Council of Saddle Brook a simple one page letter would that help? I need any help I can get and if all write something about pigeons and how important they are in their lives maybe the will change their mind... What do you guys think? More letters I get perhaps they can change their mind.. email me at [email protected] if you're willing to help out.
> 
> ...


So would keeping racing pigeons even be illegal in this town? If not maybe you could join a racing club and state they are racing pigeons.


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## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

That sucks hope you get to keep your pigeons


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Did you think about making a *petition on Facebook.* ?If you do..i can gather at least 50-100 signatures. And my friends'f friends would do it and you will get a good number. Regardless from what country the signatures would be, the town i usually sensible when their decision goes social media. I did a petition a while ago; even though the town said that signatures should be from residents, i gathered signature from all over the world and they took my petition into consideration and made it public in their records.

June 11..1 week left.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Good idea about a facebook petition, Dima. I would certainly sign any such petition.


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## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

Yes facebook is a good idea


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## jakell2010 (Nov 29, 2011)

Attach the coop to your house,,,,then it's not a seperate building,,I live a bout 90 miles north of you,,and a club buddy of mine had the town of Red Hook limit the # of birds in the coop,,I live in an un named town in Connecticut and I am suppose to have 2 acre min to have any kind of animal other than cat or dog

Your not thinking resourcefully,,,if your loft was in an attic,,,,or simply put up a tractor shed,,and it'll be a few seasons before enough birds are there to cause an issue (how many birds did you have?,,,)also can you figure out who ratted you out


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

This is literally what the code section states:

"It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to maintain, keep, pasture or harbor any pigeons in the Township" 

That is it, period. Very poorly written municipal code, IMHO. What kind of lawyer do you have ? general practice ? Because this law/code seems ripe for challenging. You have already stated that they grandfather in those who had pigeons before the law was made... 

Also, how is it that both the former health inspector and the other person in town were able to get a permit for keeping them ?

Lastly...has you lawyer investigated applying for a Variance ? A variance is an allowance granted by the city in certain circumstances so the person does not legally have to conform to the written code.

You see, I look at this and I see an amateurishly written code section, and then you note that there ARE people in town who legally keep Pigeons, AND nobody at the City particularly invested or really doing more than the minimum to push this one way or the other.

So there appear to be interpretations which allow some folks to keep Pigeons there. I understand what you are trying to do, and petitions or letters may help. Going in front of the Council may have helped, it was good you did this. But also....going there and more or less begging them to let your Pigeons stay because you are a good guy and keep a clean loft and they are not bothering anybody...it still is not a level playing field.

What happens if you simply keep asking for extensions ? Or disobey the order entirely ? The code says a $200 maximum fine:

"Any person, firm or corporation that shall violate any of the provisions of this article shall, upon conviction thereof, for each offense, pay a fine not exceeding $200, and if any person so convicted shall default in the payment of any such fine so imposed, he shall be imprisoned in the county jail for a period of not exceeding 90 days, which fine or term of imprisonment shall be in the discretion of the Judge before whom such conviction shall be had"

Again, very brief and poorly written, lacking in details, very much left to the discretion of people in the municipal realm. How often would that fine be applied ? Once a year ? Have you discussed this with the lawyer ? Once (or IF you ever) receive the fine notice...how can THAT be fought, deferred, or challenged ? Have you discussed this with a lawyer as well ?

Lawyers....their entire occupation is based upon finding such holes in what seem to be black and white laws and codes and challenging them. While I agree it seems the council just wants this to go away, thus the extensions...there will (or has) come a time where you may need to quite seriously Lawyer Up with counsel who specializes in health or property law or even animal rights or pet owner rights ...and really give some pushback. This is the other part of the Lawyer game, and it is what they get paid for.
This may actually include threats of a suit against the city if a specialized lawyer considers it feasible.

You, as a nice Pigeon guy pleading with the Council, are not a particularly formidable presence. But You with a specialized lawyer not 'pleading' or 'petitioning' but rather digging in your heels and legally pushing back...may well become a team which the city doesn't particularly want to deal with. Sabre Rattling.
That is, if you really want to fight tooth and nail on this. It s#cks, really....but we live in a society where there is constant overstepping by many an authority; and a society where being litiguous sometimes is the only way to really be heard.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I have to agree with Jaye! I would also start digging to find out exactly 'who' else has pigeons in the township.....and why can they have them with a permit. I'll bet there's more than you think, and that not all have permits. There is no way I would give up my birds knowing that others in town have theirs. I would start rattling some cages and hopefully it would get you some back-up help! In the meantime, I wouldn't tear down your loft.....I would turn it into a storage shed or something for the time being.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I think first of all that is illegal to allow to have pigeons, and not any pigeons, but domestic breed pigeons..People are allowed to have cats, dogs etc..A bit of history of the pigeons and human kind should be addressed to the city counsel.
Don't forget to mention that pigeons can do more than cats do ..LOL


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## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

Yes that's right


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