# 1st Toss Distance Discussion



## Rabbit (Aug 17, 2008)

Most of us probably know what Rotondo says about the 1st toss distance. For me I usually 1st toss at about 20 miles after I know the birds are out routing good. Normally my return is pretty good but occasionally I do lose a bird or two and I think this is normal. 
I'm considering spending the next 3 or 4 years trying to improve my birds by using more distance on the 1st toss say possibly 40 miles and then breeding from the yearlings that are left at the end of the year.
My loft size is 10 x 16 with 3 sections, 2 with traps for flying out of and one to hold breeders - against one wall I have 8 holes to use for breeding.
Please give me any suggestions or thoughts on using a program like this to improve the quality of birds. Rabbit


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Rabbit said:


> Most of us probably know what Rotondo says about the 1st toss distance. For me I usually 1st toss at about 20 miles after I know the birds are out routing good. Normally my return is pretty good but occasionally I do lose a bird or two and I think this is normal.
> I'm considering spending the next 3 or 4 years trying to improve my birds by using more distance on the 1st toss say possibly 40 miles and then breeding from the yearlings that are left at the end of the year.
> My loft size is 10 x 16 with 3 sections, 2 with traps for flying out of and one to hold breeders - against one wall I have 8 holes to use for breeding.
> Please give me any suggestions or thoughts on using a program like this to improve the quality of birds. Rabbit


I don't see how taking them 40 miles on the first toss proves they are better pigeons. It might show which ones are better homing pigeons but not which birds are better racing pigeons. I couldn't imagine taking my birds 20 miles let alone 40 miles on the first toss.


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

agreed but i have never flown my birds iam very excited about doing it actualy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Rabbit said:


> Most of us probably know what Rotondo says about the 1st toss distance. For me I usually 1st toss at about 20 miles after I know the birds are out routing good. Normally my return is pretty good but occasionally I do lose a bird or two and I think this is normal.
> I'm considering spending the next 3 or 4 years trying to improve my birds by using more distance on the 1st toss say possibly 40 miles and then breeding from the yearlings that are left at the end of the year.
> My loft size is 10 x 16 with 3 sections, 2 with traps for flying out of and one to hold breeders - against one wall I have 8 holes to use for breeding.
> Please give me any suggestions or thoughts on using a program like this to improve the quality of birds. Rabbit


Rotondo is now only about 30 years behind the times, may he rest in peace. If he were alive today and was doing everything the way he did things back in the 1970's he would certainly be on the bottom half of the race sheet. Fortunately, better methods and a little more common sense has come about over the decades since he flew pigeons. 

Find 10,000 fanciers and you might get 10,000 answers to your question. If jerking the birds down the road some longer distance was some sort of magic formula, then why not simply make their first release at the 1st race station ?

I disagree with this idea of taking baby pigeons and jerking them way down the road for their first toss. I don't think it proves anything except maybe that their owner is a jackass. I say take baby steps and give them every opportunity to suceed. The race season is where you can test what they are made of, but first let them develope a bit, and mature. To do otherwise, IMHO is cruel, and exactly the kind of actions that lead some people to think that this whole racing business is cruel. 

If you want to improve your breeding performance, then base your selection process on the preformance of the birds over the entire race season and make sure they get plenty of opportunities to race. No one time winners on a blow home race, but good steady preformance over say 5 or more races. I personally like the point system which awards a "Champion Bird". If you are flying Old Birds, then you have at least 3 or 4 additional years to test what you are producing. After 5 years of racing and perhaps 30 different races, you certainly will have ample opportunity to discover which birds have the "right stuff" and which ones do not.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have Rotondo's book and there is a lot of good info in it but the 50 mi first toss thing is not it. I agree with Warren.
Dave


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## Rabbit (Aug 17, 2008)

Thanks for the insight and the reminder that Rotondo information is getting very old. The information you guys have given me will let me re-think my plans. From what I understand Rotondo used to be the ultimate book on racing pigeons. Is there a better source book for more modern techniques and if so what is it ?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I still use Rotondo his breeding selection and the way he trains is good I just dont take them 50 on the first toss I start at 5 mi. Rotondo says if its raining and a training day you should still train so I do. I talked to the DJ from pigeon radio last year and he said Rotondo was still the best book out there you just have to put your own twist to it.
Dave


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Every time the name Rotondo appears, it sparks off a controversy. I have read the book many times, but have never tossed the young birds 40 miles on their first toss. I have trained under rain and have had the birds return over the next seven days. So you can follow his method to the letter or not and learn from your mistakes. Still I consider his book to be one of the best if not the very best and I wouldn't call him a jackass if his methods don't work for me. He also had some of the very best Bricoux long distance family of birds, ... that we don't have... So if some want to take their short distance birds and treat them like Rotondo Bricoux, go ahead and lose all of them... I don't think any of us want that? Do we?


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

If your birds loft fly for one hour and assuming that your birds can do 40 mph, then obviously they have the stamina to fly 40 miles far. The problem is the homing stuff. I think Rotondo's style is a homing test. I suppose those birds that don't make it either have poor homing ability or have slow developing homing gene. Obviously we can train our birds slowly either to give them time to develop their muscles or homing gene and may even help them familiarize with the airspace. My first toss is in front of the house (to get them used to the box). LOL!


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

RodSD said:


> My first toss is in front of the house (to get them used to the box). LOL!


Yours is further them mine. For my first toss I take them in the back yard about 150 feet from the loft.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have never read Rontodos book. But have heard about a lot of it.

I think that anyone who has written a book on any subject, surely has something to add to the bank of knowledge on the subject. But it can not all be correct nor followed to the letter, for each and every person who reads it. There is no one best way to do anything. It is a guide, not a bible.

I agree with Warrens stance. That taking baby birds 40 or 50 miles for their first toss, is the mark of a jerk, who cares little about his or her pigeons. What is going to happen to those birds who "didn't have it"? It is worse than losing an older bird. These are infants.

You owe them a chance to come along slowly. Mature and learn.

Who in their right mind would take their 2 year old child and put them in the ocean to learn to swim, or sink? Who would arrange a foot race between their 22 year old son and their 4 year old son, and the loser doesn't get dinner that day? Who of you would put your infants bottle of milk on the kitchen counter, with a chair beside the counter, and "hope" the child figures out how to use the chair to get his bottle? Some will, but very few. Most or a lot will go hungry, and probably die.

Racing pigeons, just like any other form of life, deserve a chance to learn and progress to a state of maximum worth. Not all humans will become brain surgeons, but many will become productive and as good as they can be. Just like humans, some "blossom" and mature at different stages. Some may not ever be good as a young bird. But may be the best darn old bird you ever had.

If you do not have enough space, nor enough money to feed all of your birds. Then you should not have them.

Okay. I'm done ranting.  It just gets my goat when flyers throw birds away, due to lack of ability. It hurts the hobby IMO, and the hobby has enough attacks coming at it from all directions.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Many a person trains there young birds hard . They do that to find the best birds for there team. Now 40 miles first toss may sound like a good distance. But how old are the birds when tossed makes a difference. You have even read even by Warren that some poeple Just loft fly the birds then send them to races NO tosses. So that a 100 150 mile first test . When young birds are 6 7 and 4 months old before being tossed and loft flown well They can take a longer first toss. BUT now days with hawks as bad as they are It is probaly best to start them early at the shorter tosses Just incase a hwk scatters them. But back not that many years ago. Hawks had became little problem at all. But now that they are protected well They are back More then I ever saw in most my life time. So training does have to be made toassist there progress. But really who needs to raise 100 young birds and keep and try to race every left over bird that made the road traing home. THAT is why many are still lost in the races Because those birds were not smart enough to be on the race team in the first place. So it is both ways train hard select wise or train and have a lesser team and loose many in the races. And just thinking back I do believe some of the old line birds were just a little smarter and new where home was then some birds today. They may not have been as fast But raced well for the day.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

The ones I obtained were two and three years old. I kept them in the loft for three days and then let them out with my homers.

The Cats stayed with no wandering. As with most fancy breeds, they stay and can be re-lofted easily.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

I find I lose most of my birds on the first flights and releases if they panic for one reason or another. So I try to get them use to things before taking them down the road. After they are routing, I basket them, set them down in front of the loft for about five to ten minutes. they watch me put feed in the loft then release them as I ring my bell. I do this everyday for a week. Then when I take them down the road they know what to expect. When we go down the road they watch me put feed in the loft before we go, then at the release point I ring my bell so they know food is waiting. My losses have dropped due to the time I started taking with my training. 

Tony


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