# Found a feral



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

So I reguarly walk my dog through a park in Christchurch and hundreds if not thousands of rock pigeons/ferals live in the pine trees, I hoped I would not find a squab on the ground as I knew I would be too much of a soft touch to leave it there.

I have seen a few that had been hit my lawn mowers or just died in the past and today I found a live one. Damnit, Now I have to handrear the wee thing and keep it. It might make an ok flier so I'm sure one more bird won't hurt. I am hoping the next one I find is the opposite sex and I will pair them up

This leads to my question

If two ferals were paired and if I then line bred the feral lines do you think they would slowly become more and more like their ancestors in look and stature, To be honest the birds where I walk seem pretty close anyway but obviously their would be some domestic type pigeons somewhere in their ancestory aswell.

will ad a pic tomorrow of the cute wee thing. Its a Blue T checker. maybe smoky too


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Hey Evan! 
Good for you for taking it in. Keep us updated! 
You have better knowledge of genetics than most of us! However, my thoughts on your question. Your ferals are already pretty close to wildtype. You will never get truly original Columb livia outside of its original habitat. Why? Well, the selection pressures will never be EXACTLY like they were in the original habitat. Even if you took original wild birds, the selection pressures would be different in another area than they were for the original birds. But that is ok! On top of that, selection pressures in your loft (or any captive enviornment) will be different than in the wild. And one more thing is your gene pool with two inidividuals would be somewhat limited anyway, so doubtful you would get MUCH change over their descendants with time. However, those birds and those descendents will always be much closer to wildtype than birds bred from any of your domestic breeds. 
Evan I enjoy all of your posts and you are an asset to this online community.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Sounds very cute .......good onya for making him / her safe ....look forward to seeing the pic


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks for having a kind heart.

If you need help with the baby, let us know. Keep in mind, now....sometimes babies end up on the ground because they are ill and neglected by their parents....or as the result of a predator.

So there are things you need to check for, immediately.

1) Any external injury ~ lesions, scabs, blood, scrapes, that sort of thing.

2) Check inside of mouth for canker ~ this would be a foul odor and/or phlegmatic mouth or nasal area (cere), or white/yellow dots or growths on what otherwise should be a sorta pinkish mouth interior.

Regarding breeding back into a 'wilder' form....I don't quite get it. I mean, it seems like you are proposing just doing what Ferals already do all by themsleves, no ?

Secondly...I would implore anyone NOT to allow their rescues (Feral or otherwise) to breed. Your opening statement itself observes this very situation/reality: there are 'enough' Ferals already. 
Add to this the incredibly large number of rescue Pigeons already living, which are unreleasable and in need of a good home...and I feel that allowing rescues to breed is not a responsible course of action.

Keep us posted !


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jaye said:


> Thanks for having a kind heart.
> 
> If you need help with the baby, let us know. Keep in mind, now....sometimes babies end up on the ground because they are ill and neglected by their parents....or as the result of a predator.
> 
> ...


Jay thanks for your concerns, I have had pigeons for a whilen now and have handreared a few so am confident in my ability, The bird is looking as healthy as you can expect for a bird that fell from a tree

If I have two ferals paired and I let them breed I do not see the issue as I wil be allowing them to live with my flock, therefore IMO it is no different to letting a pair of my racers rear up some new young, Aslong as I am prepared to keep them then I don't see a problem.

And yes I am proposing doing what ferals do by themselves, But I will be able to observe the genetics better in my loft. I have a big interest in genetics and once again aslong as I am prepared to care for the pigeons as I make my observations then I don't see an issue


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

whytwings said:


> Sounds very cute .......good onya for making him / her safe ....look forward to seeing the pic


Thanks, Will get a pic today



Woodnative said:


> Hey Evan!
> Good for you for taking it in. Keep us updated!
> You have better knowledge of genetics than most of us! However, my thoughts on your question. Your ferals are already pretty close to wildtype. You will never get truly original Columb livia outside of its original habitat. Why? Well, the selection pressures will never be EXACTLY like they were in the original habitat. Even if you took original wild birds, the selection pressures would be different in another area than they were for the original birds. But that is ok! On top of that, selection pressures in your loft (or any captive enviornment) will be different than in the wild. And one more thing is your gene pool with two inidividuals would be somewhat limited anyway, so doubtful you would get MUCH change over their descendants with time. However, those birds and those descendents will always be much closer to wildtype than birds bred from any of your domestic breeds.
> Evan I enjoy all of your posts and you are an asset to this online community.


Thanks Chris, My genetic knowledge is restricted to colours at this stage, Hence my interest with this wee guy to see what mutations happen in the wild and how much variation occurs in type. Will be interesting and in the process I will have more birds in ny flying flock. I like watching large groups flying.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Jaye said:


> Thanks for having a kind heart.
> 
> If you need help with the baby, let us know. Keep in mind, now....sometimes babies end up on the ground because they are ill and neglected by their parents....or as the result of a predator.
> 
> ...


Jaye ......I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on your point of not allowing ferals or rescues to breed . They have been accepted into my family of pigeons and I do not see them any differently from my many pairs that are allowed to breed . I don't get it ......if I allow a pair of my homers to have a couple of babies , what is the difference?? .....either way I am going to have a couple of babies . 

I'll always still scrape a broken bird up off the road , bring home an injured bird or offer sanctuary to those in need .


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

*Pics*

Heres the wee thing, Gave him a quarter a trichozole pill, Metradanizole or however you spell it is whats in it. Just as a precaution really. Will worm and do probitoics over the next week.

He is digesting food well, was really skinny but apart form that seems healthy, Unfortunately there was a dead look a like in the same spot today when I walked by, Maybe they lost their parents and have fallen out, or it could just be from another nest, Been pretty windy here and the pines they live in sway a lot. Shame I was too late for the other one.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Heres the wee thing, Gave him a quarter a trichozole pill, Metradanizole or however you spell it is whats in it. Just as a precaution really. Will worm and do probitoics over the next week.
> 
> He is digesting food well, was really skinny but apart form that seems healthy, Unfortunately there was a dead look a like in the same spot today when I walked by, Maybe they lost their parents and have fallen out, or it could just be from another nest, Been pretty windy here and the pines they live in sway a lot. Shame I was too late for the other one.


Are you sure there is actually any "nests" to speak of lol
Ferals are not really that good nest builders & will lay a few twigs or straws & really hope for the best.
In a bridge or sheltered rocky area where they would normally roost, this isnt such a problem, but they certainly dont normally nest in trees, so I would imagine their skills there would be few and far between, and not helped as you say by any wind.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Great pic Evan , keep us posted on his progress !


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

It will be interesting to see his "personality" vs. your other domestics when he grows up too! Unrelated question.....seems like a lot of tank space for two little goldfish......what else is in there that I am missing?.....


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Quazar - They actually do quite well in the trees, Nesting where the brances meet and the actually seem to pile a hell of a lot of sticks in there, that way it elevates them above the damp. I will get you some pics next time I am walking, They nest in the trees a lot here in chch as we have a lot of fields to feed in but not so many buildings, In saying that the buildings are packed with pigeons too

Chris - At this time of year most my goldfish are outside enjoying the ponds, I put one or two small fish into each tank to maintain the biological filters and ecosystems. Hence the extra space


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pigeons nest in the palm trees here, too. A windy day can easily shake babies from the nest. Haven't got a ledge...go with a tree!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

He's very cute, Evan. Lucky baby.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Darren, as a rescue/rehab, I currently have 30 pigeons in great need of a homes. I am 30 over my limit.I am overwhelmed.
Placing pigeons, is not so easy. I haven't even had any responses to a roller I very much need to place....ferals...forget about it! They are all beautiful, smart each one unique.
The thing mentioned about not letting pigeons breed was likely about all the pigeons that do need homes and haven't got one...adopting some of those , rather than hatching more.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Heres the wee thing, Gave him a quarter a trichozole pill, Metradanizole or however you spell it is whats in it. Just as a precaution really. Will worm and do probitoics over the next week.
> 
> .


Thanks for the picture of your rescue, what a cutie It was awesome of you to pick it up. BTW I hope things have settled down after the scary earthquakes you had in Christchurch a little while ago!

Your rescued baby looks big enough to have attempted its first fly out of the nest IMO, or maybe it was booted out.

I don't know if this helps, but I am raising two babies at the moment that I found when they were similar in size to yours, only they did not have quite as much feather cover. It turns out they both had Pox, but it didn't show up for a couple of weeks. They are both growing fast and seem healthy and alert in spite of the pox, which hopefully will be gone in 6 weeks time. But they would have surely died without being taken in. This was a good lesson for me about quarantining healthy-seeming new rescues.

After looking at your photo, I think I understand what you mean now about wanting to see if you can breed a more traditional blue bar type Rock pigeon from the Check. I don't really know; my wild ferals seem to be mostly checks too, with fewer of the blue bars. There re a lot of racing pigeon genes in my wild flock from lost strays, so who knows, maybe there is some intelligence behind the breeding choices of of these birds, that favours the stronger stock & their odder colours? Its interesting anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Very cute little one. More pics as he grows up please.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Charis said:


> Pigeons nest in the palm trees here, too. A windy day can easily shake babies from the nest. Haven't got a ledge...go with a tree!


Hey Charis, I understand what you are saying regarding not breeding when you can take on more but to be honest I would not adopt a pigeon off someone as it does not really interest me, Its their pet/responsibility, This wee thing however didn't have anyone so I had to help, What I am trying to say is regardless of whether I breed more off this bird or not I will not be open to adopting someone elses birds so it makes no difference in the bigger scheme of things. And Yes, In a town four hours North frm me ( Blenheim ) the pigeons nest in the pheonix palms, Sometimes you can see up to fifty living in one palm



Bella_F said:


> Thanks for the picture of your rescue, what a cutie It was awesome of you to pick it up. BTW I hope things have settled down after the scary earthquakes you had in Christchurch a little while ago!
> 
> Your rescued baby looks big enough to have attempted its first fly out of the nest IMO, or maybe it was booted out.
> 
> ...


Hey, EQ's still hitting us a wee bit, Had a 5.9, 5.5, 6.0, 5.5, and a 5.0 all on the 23rd of december and about 20 other small ones so I don;t think we are out of the woods yet, Have had four days similar to that in the past year. They don't worry me too much but its really sad that lives have been lost.

Heres a link for two of the december ones. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zzewm3HKE8&feature=related

I agree he was old enough to attempt his first fly but seeing him attempt today he was not up to getting back into the tree. He was quite slow on it and very starving when I got him. Poops look like any other pigeons today so Im hoping he is free of disease, he will stay in the garage for a long time yet just to be safe, Might bring him a mate in and make a little cage, That way he won't be too lonely and if he is carrying something I should find out without risking the entire flock. Not sure why Im assuming its a he???



Jay3 said:


> Very cute little one. More pics as he grows up please.


Thanks Jay3. Will take another one over the next few days.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*quote...Hey Charis, I understand what you are saying regarding not breeding when you can take on more but to be honest I would not adopt a pigeon off someone as it does not really interest me, Its their pet/responsibility,*


That wasn't the point. I would have taken the little guy in too. The point in general terms and as a thought for all to think about, is not to breed more pigeons that ultimately one will not want to keep and give away, dispose of ...when there are so many in need.
Of course, there are always the oops, babies. I've had my share. Not me personally, of course...the pigeons!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I thought your point was Not breed more pigeons when you can take one in. What I am saying is I will not be taking anymore in regardless of how many pigeons I have here already .I am a pigeon breeder, not a rehabber. I am interested in genetics and to understand this better I need to breed pigeons, I do understand your point but sorry my opinion is different and I have no interest in adopting pigeons. There a poor peole in africa but the government are not telling us to stop breeding and take in an african instead. It comes down to personal choice and although your comment is noble and I appreciate what you are saying its not my thing.

Anyway I have seen this discussion many times on here and people have their opinions, Lets not clog up this thread with another discussion about whether to breed more pigeons into the world or not. I am doing my part to help a pigeon but I am a perfectionist, therefore everything needs a purpose so I am giving this wee thing a purpose in my loft and if that involves breeding more pigeons that I will care for then so be it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Oh Brother!....Evan...I don't want to start a row...honest I don't. I'm so sick of arguments I could just scream! What you do is your business. I wasn't telling you what to do. I only was expressing the side of it I see and experience.
Enough...I'm going to go soak my head.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Hes really cute  hope he does well


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Charis said:


> Oh Brother!....Evan...I don't want to start a row...honest I don't. I'm so sick of arguments I could just scream! What you do is your business. I wasn't telling you what to do. I only was expressing the side of it I see and experience.
> Enough...I'm going to go soak my head.




Lol, I love it how people on here assume someone is argueing with them, They express their opinion and when its challenged or rebutted it becomes an arguement.

Sorry Charis was not trying to argue, Just explaining my position and point of view, And respecting yours in the process


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> Not everyone NZ Pigeon! You get all personality types here trying to help pigeons, most of them are compassionate and normal. John And Feefo who run the site are fantastic people and will do anything for you. Some other members rub me up the wrong way as well, because they act like they hate you if you don't do exactly what they say, like a good disciple. The more you hang around, the you more realise its only one or two people and their minions, like any forum.
> 
> I don't like going behind people's back, so I'll say upfront that Charis is a known bully, she drove off a cherished member recently named Dobato, and she was even demoted from administration on another forum for it. So if you're getting bad vibes, its not just you.
> 
> ...


One thing for sure is I have the same respect as you do for anyone that cares for animals and I hoped that came across in my posts.

And I will certainly not be going anywhere due to anyones posts, I actually enjoy hearing peoples opinions no matter how much they push them But I expect them to listen in return when I state my point of view without all the Oh Brother.... I could just scream and all that emotional BS.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Bella_F said:


> .... John And Feefo who run the site are fantastic people and will do anything for you ...


Thanks Bella_F, but John and Feefo don't run the site 

Keebali Media owns the site. I'm an admin (moderator with some additional semi-technical functions), Feefo is a member. Terry (TAWhatley) is also an admin.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon - Nice looking bird. Totally off subject - How did you get your interest in genetics? Are you self taught, or do you have formal training? I am fascinated reading the discussions about how breeding certain colors produce other colors. And how you and others discern what breeding produced the colorations on birds pictured in various other threads. Amazing!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

almondman said:


> NZ Pigeon - Nice looking bird. Totally off subject - How did you get your interest in genetics? Are you self taught, or do you have formal training? I am fascinated reading the discussions about how breeding certain colors produce other colors. And how you and others discern what breeding produced the colorations on birds pictured in various other threads. Amazing!


Hi Almondman, Thanks!

I am self taught, About a year ago I wanted to breed brown in my thief pouters so read about that and got hooked. Also I am a bit of a perfectionist so If I know I am following the right steps I can accept that their is a process and things don't come instantly with pigeons.

A good thing to read about is sex linkage as if you can understand that it helps with some of the other genes, Even if they are inherited as " autosomal genes "


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Hi Almondman, Thanks!
> 
> I am self taught, About a year ago I wanted to breed brown in my thief pouters so read about that and got hooked. Also I am a bit of a perfectionist so If I know I am following the right steps I can accept that their is a process and things don't come instantly with pigeons.
> 
> A good thing to read about is sex linkage as if you can understand that it helps with some of the other genes, Even if they are inherited as " autosomal genes "


Congratulations on being self taught. When things get settled down here, I may need to pick your brains some. Until then, I will enjoy your discussions with the others on the subject.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks! Ron Huntley and Frank Moscas websites were of great help. The time they must have put in is unbelievable.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

you can climb the gum trees behind my place if you want to find it a mate... tons of them living there.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Not everyone NZ Pigeon! You get all personality types here trying to help pigeons, most of them are compassionate and normal. John And Feefo who run the site are fantastic people and will do anything for you. Some other members rub me up the wrong way as well, because they act like they hate you if you don't do exactly what they say, like a good disciple. The more you hang around, the you more realise its only one or two people and their minions, like any forum.
> 
> I don't like going behind people's back, so I'll say upfront that Charis is a known bully, she drove off a cherished member recently named Dobato, and she was even demoted from administration on another forum for it. So if you're getting bad vibes, its not just you.
> 
> ...


Bella, this comment is so reprehensible ~ and out of the blue, quite honestly ~ I cannot really fathom it ! 

I mean, quite seriously...EVERYBODY...Evan stated his reasons for breeding more Pigeons into the world. He seems to feel his reasons are good enough.

Charis stated (rather respectfully, I might add) the reasons NOT TO. Which are very, very, very valid.

Because, keep in mind, everyone...what our intentions are (keeping them all...forever) vs. what unforseen future realities may be...are two very different things. Has nothing to do with what a good person you may be...the point is, things happen.

It should have been just left at that.

_This thread has veered into personal attacks and airing out dirty laundry_...very, very unfortunate, people. 

There was no reason for it. Please take a look back at page 1 here...there were no personal attacks leveled until Bella chimed in.

It began with your very reply, Bella. That was very disrespectful, it really was....also very inaccurate. But worst of all...what you penned was incredibly unlike the person I thought you were.

....it also has had the unfortunate result of digressing the entire thread. And Evan, you sorta took the bait a bit.....

Bella....I might suggest you temper your comments in the future...you brought in the entire kitchen sink, and there was no need for it. If you have issues with a member...PM them, don't start leveling someone in the middle of someone else's thread. Really...incredibly bad example your quote above sets.

Evan, best of luck, I suppose..... and please keep in mind this:

For the welfare of your pigeon friends, if you choose to populate the world with more - for the purpose of hobbyist genetics....do stay the course, and stay responsible. 

Because once we make such a decision we must always be there to see it through...regardless of what comes up in the future.

I would also hope that...of course...should a Feral in distress cross your path next time, you will of course do what a Pigeon friend should do to help him/her.....


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jaye said:


> Bella, this comment is so reprehensible ~ and out of the blue, quite honestly ~ I cannot really fathom it !
> 
> I mean, quite seriously...EVERYBODY...Evan stated his reasons for breeding more Pigeons into the world. He seems to feel his reasons are good enough.
> 
> ...


Noone knows what the future holds and to limit yourself based on what COULD happen is ridiculous IMO.

Once again I admire you guys for the level of concern you have for the pigeons future but lets be real. Things Die, Its nature. Things are abandoned and left to starve, Its also nature, I am a big supporter of limiting the possibilities of this happening but I am also a realist.

Lastly I do respect everyones views and appreciate them, I assure you I will not be breeding thousands of ferals into the world but one or two for some variety in my loft is definetly a possibility.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Good to see the OP is trying to keep this on track so let's just go along with that


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

More pics coming later today, The wee thing is eating and drinking for itself, On Probiotics following a worming. Suprisingly no signs of worms in the poops - I did not look to closely though lol. 
I can still feel its kiel and its nowhere near as fat as my racer babies that I have put with it for company and also to test the water for any diseases. ( I am as certain as one can be that this bird does not carry disease) - I would not be putting a baby with if I thought the risk was high, I admit I am taking a risk but its for the protection of my other 100 odd pigeons that I am risking one. Not the most PC way of quarantine I know - But it's the way I am doing it this time round. Also I want the wee thing to learn how to interact with pigeons as it is going to be a loft bird not a pet.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

I have no doubt the baby is in good hands and hope that in a couple of months time we'll see a pic of what he's blossomed to be


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## Angusp2 (Feb 19, 2012)

Hey Evan 
It's cool to see another person from Christchurch on here too! I found a pigeon a couple of weeks ago at the Canterbury Airsoft Group HQ and plan to get a loft and some more birds.
Which park did you find your one in?

Angus.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey Angus, that is cool. I have some different breeds if you wanted to come and have a look at you are welcome

I found mine in hagley park, they live in the pines all around the park and there are a lot in the gardens. Where is the canterbury airsoft group HQ? Not wigram? I saw some pigeons there the other day.

nzpouter and thepigeonkey are also from CHCH. thepigeonkey is my flatmate


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

Hey Evan, I got a shield marked racer if you want to handraise 1.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I just told him and he said he would love it. what is the easiest way to get it? He can pick it up or you can drop it off. whatevers easiest

I still been thinking about that half frill at colins. What does it carry? toy stencil?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nzpouter said:


> Hey Evan, I got a shield marked racer if you want to handraise 1.


Wow, thats an outstanding loft you have there in your pics! NZ is so beautiful, I envy you guys living there, even with the earth quakes. I noticed some pics of crested pigeons in your photobucket link- are crested pigeons native to NZ too (I'm from Australia where they are Native & I'm always rescuing them), or captive bred? Love your Modenas too...I'm not so good with the other breeds, though they look lovely.

Just a question, are the original Rock pigeons regarded as Blue bars? Is that what you're aiming for with breeding checks?


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

thepigeonkey said:


> I just told him and he said he would love it. what is the easiest way to get it? He can pick it up or you can drop it off. whatevers easiest
> 
> I still been thinking about that half frill at colins. What does it carry? toy stencil?


He can pick it up if he wants, it's just started to break feathers so be fairly easy to tame. 

Yep, toy stencil... will look outstanding on a frillback.

You know where I live now.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> Wow, thats an outstanding loft you have there in your pics! NZ is so beautiful, I envy you guys living there, even with the earth quakes. I noticed some pics of crested pigeons in your photobucket link- are crested pigeons native to NZ too (I'm from Australia where they are Native & I'm always rescuing them), or captive bred? Love your Modenas too...I'm not so good with the other breeds, though they look lovely.
> 
> Just a question, are the original Rock pigeons regarded as Blue bars? Is that what you're aiming for with breeding checks?


Thanks  they are aussie crested, not that common here.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

nzpouter said:


> .
> 
> Yep, toy stencil... will look outstanding on a frillback.
> 
> .


Next time I go there I think I'll bring it home. If I can breed black frillbacks then I could put toy stencil on it and get white bars correct? and if I use a t-pattern I could maybe breed a black whiteside


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

thepigeonkey said:


> Next time I go there I think I'll bring it home. If I can breed black frillbacks then I could put toy stencil on it and get white bars correct? and if I use a t-pattern I could maybe breed a black whiteside


Be better with cheq, black bird with white curls


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

yeah that would be cool. 
Apparently there is a new modifier in america and germany which make bigger harder curls. check these out - they are german birds 
I want frillbacks like this!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Setting the record straight*

Dear members,
I haven't been on here for quite some time. One reason being, the last two times I did log on, shortly thereafter my computer crashed. So I have been a bit gun shy about visiting here. Could have been coincidental, I don't know, but I do know I am not in a financial position to have my computer fixed over and over again. 
In addition, I have been dealing with some medical and personal issues and just haven't been on the computer much at all.

With that said, I am posting now because I was alerted to the following statement which may involve my site. 



Bella_F said:


> I don't like going behind people's back, so I'll say upfront that Charis is a known bully, she drove off a cherished member recently named Dobato, *and she was even demoted from administration on another forum for it*. So if you're getting bad vibes, its not just you.


 
Bella,
*If* your statement is in reference to my site, Pigeon Angels, then it couldn't be further from the truth.
I don't know where, nor do I care where, you obtained that information but it is absolutely *not true*. 

Thought to ponder:
Misleading and/or incorrect information can affect many people and be quite damaging in a variety of ways. 
It would be much better to contact a realible source to verify or confirm a situation before making any statements. 
In the above instance, I am the only one who could have verified or confirmed your statement and I have never spoken with you. 

I would appreciate it if nothing else were posted regarding the statement. 
If any comments are made, I would greatly appreciate the moderators deleting them.
If anyone would like to address me, personally, please use my email. [email protected].

Thank you.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Your absence had been noticed. Sorry to hear about your medical and other issues. I hope you get through them very soon. We need your expertise and experience on this forum and you have been missed.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

almondman said:


> Your absence had been noticed. Sorry to hear about your medical and other issues. I hope you get through them very soon. We need your expertise and experience on this forum and you have been missed.


Thank you.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

how can someone be a super moderator and not even can/ want to come on to the site?... or does that even come to play with moderators..lol.. I do not know much about it as you can see..lol...

I think this tread needs to be locked up as this seems personal to me.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Your post has nothing to do with this thread, Spirit Wings. 
Send me an email if you want your questions answered. [email protected]


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Evidently my request to keep things on track fell on (some) deaf ears, so to speak.

You can all stop this argument now or ALL your posts will be removed.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Your post has nothing to do with this thread, Spirit Wings.
> Send me an email if you want your questions answered. [email protected]


nore does your post... I do not have anymore questions.. it is just obviouse some gossip is going around with some ladies and you came to one's aide but no one else is suppose to comment on it, so this seems like gossipy personel stuff and that is why I suggested this be locked. or Bella's post ,mine and yours can be deleted.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> Wow, thats an outstanding loft you have there in your pics! NZ is so beautiful, I envy you guys living there, even with the earth quakes. I noticed some pics of crested pigeons in your photobucket link- are crested pigeons native to NZ too (I'm from Australia where they are Native & I'm always rescuing them), or captive bred? Love your Modenas too...I'm not so good with the other breeds, though they look lovely.
> 
> Just a question, are the original Rock pigeons regarded as Blue bars? Is that what you're aiming for with breeding checks?


Bella, thanks for taking things back on track

Yes the wild type for all rock doves is blue bar. I am not so much aiming for blue bar but I would like to find a blue bar mate for this guy/girl as I like the look of the blue bar and I would like the true " Wild " look in my loft. In saying that you see more checks in the wild these days. I am thinking about breeding them to be as small as I can possibly get them so they make my racers look bigger and provide some variety to my flying flock

Genetically speaking it is possible to breed bars from checks as check is a dominant pattern to bar, Therefore if you have two checks that carry bar hidden you will get 1/4 barred offspring.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> AZ, I appreciate your need to put the first post. I hoped it would stop the nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my apologies, I thought the bringing it up by AZwhitefeathers was off track. I was trying to point that out and perhaps a solution was to take out the off track parts, ALL OF THEM, not just for the people you don't like. 

now on with your little feral. good luck with it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You know, I will only say one thing then drop it for the sake of the thread.
When something is said about another member in a thread, and someone who knows can clarify it, then it should, no...............has to be posted in the same thread. Anyone reading the misleading comments also has the right to read the correction.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> You know, I will only say one thing then drop it for the sake of the thread.
> When something is said about another member in a thread, and someone who knows can clarify it, then it should, no...............has to be posted in the same thread. Anyone reading the misleading comments also has the right to read the correction.


I guess that is true if Nz pigeon wants it that way. it is his thread.  so much for it getting on track..lol..


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Argh, I agree if Bella has said something incorrect then it should be corrected where possible and this thread is the most relevant place to do it. I appreciate everyones comments and sorry If I gave the impression I did not, I was just trying to get things back on track and hopefully this is the last of it

I agree if any posts are deleted it should be right from where I said " I love it how people on here assume you are trying to argue with them" And then everything from there regarding it should be gone too. but that is up to the moderators.

I am reposting the below post, Please only respond to that or any other posts that are not regarding other members. Bella has said her peice and I respect that, I am not taking sides, I respect Charis and Jayes P.O.V. aswell.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes the wild type for all rock doves is blue bar. I am not so much aiming for blue bar but I would like to find a blue bar mate for this guy/girl as I like the look of the blue bar and I would like the true " Wild " look in my loft. In saying that you see more checks in the wild these days. I am thinking about breeding them to be as small as I can possibly get them so they make my racers look bigger and provide some variety to my flying flock

Genetically speaking it is possible to breed bars from checks as check is a dominant pattern to bar, Therefore if you have two checks that carry bar hidden you will get 1/4 barred offspring.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yes the wild type for all rock doves is blue bar. I am not so much aiming for blue bar but I would like to find a blue bar mate for this guy/girl as I like the look of the blue bar and I would like the true " Wild " look in my loft. In saying that you see more checks in the wild these days. I am thinking about breeding them to be as small as I can possibly get them so they make my racers look bigger and provide some variety to my flying flock
> 
> Genetically speaking it is possible to breed bars from checks as check is a dominant pattern to bar, Therefore if you have two checks that carry bar hidden you will get 1/4 barred offspring.


 you say small.. would you use something like a figurita for that?


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

thepigeonkey said:


> yeah that would be cool.
> Apparently there is a new modifier in america and germany which make bigger harder curls. check these out - they are german birds
> I want frillbacks like this!


modifier not selection?? We have rockies flying with our birds all the time, they are smaller than the fancy on the body but they have long wing span...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> you say small.. would you use something like a figurita for that?


Don't think we have that breed in NZ. I was thinking of doing it through selection, over time the birds would get smaller. May take 20 years to see a difference but I should have a few years left..... 



nzpouter said:


> modifier not selection?? We have rockies flying with our birds all the time, they are smaller than the fancy on the body but they have long wing span...


A guy on the genetics website said frillbacks have two genes cu1 and cu2 and also its believed the Germans added the new gene for larger harder curls, I wonder if it was selection though.


Yeah your right, Built for flying, The ones out by you probably don't have to go as far for food like the ones in Sumner on the cliffs that fly over ours. So low they are below rooftop level sometimes.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Don't think we have that breed in NZ. I was thinking of doing it through selection, over time the birds would get smaller. May take 20 years to see a difference but I should have a few years left.....
> .


a birmingham be close enough in size and shape...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

nzpouter said:


> a birmingham be close enough in size and shape...


Yeah it could work but I would rather use a feral, I am interested to see how much can be done through selection - Obviously all the breeds we have today were created through selection so surely in time I can get the size down. I will just wait until I stumble across another in need of rescue, Not going to go out looking for one but if one turns up


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yeah it could work but I would rather use a feral, I am interested to see how much can be done through selection - Obviously all the breeds we have today were created through selection so surely in time I can get the size down. I will just wait until I stumble across another in need of rescue, Not going to go out looking for one but if one turns up


what is the difference between a bb feral and bb pigeon living in a loft?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Sorry? Are you asking what is the difference between a blue bar feral and a blue bar pigeon living in a loft - Nothing I guess but the feral pigeons in NZ are tiny and my racers are big, Also ferals have not had humans intefering in the selection process so they are the closest thing I can find to a true rock pigeon.
I like blue bar pigeons and I also would like a "wild type" specimen in my loft


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Sorry? Are you asking what is the difference between a blue bar feral and a blue bar pigeon living in a loft - Nothing I guess but the feral pigeons in NZ are tiny and my racers are big, Also ferals have not had humans intefering in the selection process so they are the closest thing I can find to a true rock pigeon.
> I like blue bar pigeons and I also would like a "wild type" specimen in my loft


why are you sorry?..lol..
I did not know they were small there. here the size seems normal or not much difference in sizes, probably due to a large lost homer population. there is allot of color patterns too, but bb seems to be more abundant.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> why are you sorry?..lol..
> I did not know they were small there. here the size seems normal or not much difference in sizes, probably due to a large lost homer population. there is allot of color patterns too, but bb seems to be more abundant.


Sorry that I had to question what BB meant, It was more of a - sorry - I'm a bit thick and need to check thats when you meant by BB.

I think our ferals in NZ are a lot different to your guys, Because we do not really have a large city, (actually ChCh has no city at the moment as it collapsed in the earthquakes but the pigeons love it, they live inside all the abndoned buildings) but back to my point - our pigeons adapt to live in trees and to fly miles to feed so our selection pressures only allow small bodied, strong winged pigeons. Also because we do not have a lot of predators the birds thrive in the trees and I wonder if a smaller pigeon is better suited to a tree. I guess what I am saying is that in the large citys with the help of humans the birds do not have the same selection pressures as ours. Just as a side note the birds have large crops, Its amazing to see them all flying back from the fields with bulged crops, They almost make a diamond shape around the birds neck area.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Sorry that I had to question what BB meant, It was more of a - sorry - I'm a bit thick and need to check thats when you meant by BB.
> 
> I think our ferals in NZ are a lot different to your guys, Because we do not really have a large city, (actually ChCh has no city at the moment as it collapsed in the earthquakes but the pigeons love it, they live inside all the abndoned buildings) but back to my point - our pigeons adapt to live in trees and to fly miles to feed so our selection pressures only allow small bodied, strong winged pigeons. Also because we do not have a lot of predators the birds thrive in the trees and I wonder if a smaller pigeon is better suited to a tree. I guess what I am saying is that in the large citys with the help of humans the birds do not have the same selection pressures as ours. Just as a side note the birds have large crops, Its amazing to see them all flying back from the fields with bulged crops, They almost make a diamond shape around the birds neck area.


sounds like pigeon paradise. you're ferals there are very closed off as well, do you have more domestic looking types too? I imagine our escapees and lost pigeons are allot higher in numbers here as well. where you live I bet they revert back to wild rock pigeon "type look" pretty quick without allot of new domestics being mixed in on a regular basis.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

There is some variation and I Have noticed the birds under the bridges near where I live are a bit larger and have more cere and wattle which makes me think they have had a lot more of a racer influence, The ones that live on the cliffs or in the trees seem to be more wild looking, what you are saying is bang on and I guess the escapees tend to live in the bridges or on buildings as they are closer to a loft type set up. I think due to the lack of BOP the birds do breed a lot more in the wild so they revert back a lot quicker, I am guessing a high number of your yearly population increase is due to lost racers whereas over here, Like you have said our population increases are mainly due to the wild pigeons breeding. The amount of seed and grain available to them out in the fields must be so high for them to be as full as they are on return.

I know of one guy out in the country that puts a small amount of food in his loft each day and they are free range to travel and feed in the fields which they do. None of them look hungry to me and they don't get bugger all from him


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

*PIcs*

New photo, Took 3 days ago, Hes now in the pigeon loft with the others

Also a pic of the birds near where he was found, Was a rainy day so noone was around and the young birds where down feeding, they live and nest in the pine trees.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

The little guy is looking good! One of the ones in the wild flock looks black (spread)?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Woodnative said:


> The little guy is looking good! One of the ones in the wild flock looks black (spread)?


Yeah, I have noticed a few in the gardens, Must have been introduced through racing stock a while back. Saw a grizzle recently,I have never seen anything with a band on.


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## AdamMacia (Feb 24, 2012)

it´s a nice little pigeon. It's interesting that they look like dodo's when the are young.
Do these pigeons live in the forest in Christchurch? They normally live in towns and cities. Are there any native piegeons of New Zealand?
Adam.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The kereru is our native wood pigeon, they live in trees, The rock pigeons in chch live in trees aswell as buildings, bridges and cliffs, I think in areas with large amounts of BOP the pigeons don't survive in places like trees and cliffs quite so well but we don't have a BOP issue at all here so they survive and thrive anywhere.


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## AdamMacia (Feb 24, 2012)

What is BOP?
thanks
adam.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Bird of prey hawks, falcons, owls, any birds that would have pigeons for dinner.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

*New Pics*

Little guy is out on the roof, Has flown a few circles and is landing back there so he should conform to the behaviour of my flock pretty well I think...

Here he is on the roof watching the older birds loft fly, There is also a serbian high flier and a roller out learning aswell. Am going to put an album up with more of it soon. I think its probably a hen but for some reason I am calling it a "he".

Landing pads on the roof are a little ugly but they are right down the back and cannot be seen from the yard so I can bear them....just........
They really do help the birds to land on the roof and identify it when they are young.


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## AdamMacia (Feb 24, 2012)

Hi Evan,
They look lovely, the brown and white looks beautiful. Do you breed pigeons for flying?
Are the wodden parts on the roof for the pigeons or not?
I´m also interested in the plants behind the roofs, what are they? I´m a gardener and I love plants, and trees, and I´m interested in New Zealand plants. I´ve never been there, but I´d like to one day. I only know New Zealand plants comercially grown, like, the Cordyline, NZ flax, etc.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think the landing pads are a great idea actually.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AdamMacia said:


> Hi Evan,
> They look lovely, the brown and white looks beautiful. Do you breed pigeons for flying?
> Are the wodden parts on the roof for the pigeons or not?
> I´m also interested in the plants behind the roofs, what are they? I´m a gardener and I love plants, and trees, and I´m interested in New Zealand plants. I´ve never been there, but I´d like to one day. I only know New Zealand plants comercially grown, like, the Cordyline, NZ flax, etc.


Thanks Adam, Yeah I breed breed pigeons for colour but I try and have flying breeds as I prefer that the pigeons can come out and be free for atleast 1 - 2 hours a day, I am quite strict that they fly for the whole time they are out but these are young birds so they are allowed on the roof until they learn to fly and get fit.
Landing pads on the roof are a little ugly but they are right down the back and cannot be seen from the yard so I can bear them....just........
They really do help the birds to land on the roof and identify it when they are young.
The plants you can see are most likely tree dalias, They get a massive big hanging flower but the buds don't usually open till around the first frost, Then the whole thing rots down to a stump until spring next year. they get about twice as tall as they are now and thats an 8ft fence you are looking at so they get some height.
If you ever come to NZ, let me know you will have to come look at the pigeons and gardens. Christchurch is the "garden city' so you would HAVE to come here.




Jay3 said:


> I think the landing pads are a great idea actually.


Thanks Jay3. I might make some asthetically pleasing ones one day


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Thanks Adam, Yeah I breed breed pigeons for colour but I try and have flying breeds as I prefer that the pigeons can come out and be free for atleast 1 - 2 hours a day, I am quite strict that they fly for the whole time they are out but these are young birds so they are allowed on the roof until they learn to fly and get fit.
> Landing pads on the roof are a little ugly but they are right down the back and cannot be seen from the yard so I can bear them....just........
> They really do help the birds to land on the roof and identify it when they are young.
> The plants you can see are most likely tree dalias, They get a massive big hanging flower but the buds don't usually open till around the first frost, Then the whole thing rots down to a stump until spring next year. they get about twice as tall as they are now and thats an 8ft fence you are looking at so they get some height.
> ...





Hey, as long as they work. And as you said they are in the back. The birds just want to land easily. They don't care what they look like. I think they're great.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Flew full term with the adults today and landed on the loft roof, Its a smart little thing. 

*Andrew*- Those two young shields got up for a little bit today aswell, Homed back in so hopefully they will stick around, The little one is feeding on its own now too.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

sweet... let me know if you want another half a dozen of them...


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## AdamMacia (Feb 24, 2012)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Thanks Adam, Yeah I breed breed pigeons for colour but I try and have flying breeds as I prefer that the pigeons can come out and be free for atleast 1 - 2 hours a day, I am quite strict that they fly for the whole time they are out but these are young birds so they are allowed on the roof until they learn to fly and get fit.
> Landing pads on the roof are a little ugly but they are right down the back and cannot be seen from the yard so I can bear them....just........
> They really do help the birds to land on the roof and identify it when they are young.
> The plants you can see are most likely tree dalias, They get a massive big hanging flower but the buds don't usually open till around the first frost, Then the whole thing rots down to a stump until spring next year. they get about twice as tall as they are now and thats an 8ft fence you are looking at so they get some height.
> ...


Thanks Evan.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

Hi Evan, I got a spread ash red chick here, a bit overmarked around the breast, but can be handy to mate with one of your bishop birds... Let me know if you want it.


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

I do not thoroughly understand what you all are talking about. I speak my own thinking, and any of you may want to steer me to the correct direction.
I live in Hartford, the North East coast area between Boston and New York city. They are 2 large cities with a lot of feral pigeons. Hartford, however, has very small population of feral pigeons. I cannot find any of their nests. They do not stay or appear at the same location at a certain time of day. Maybe they have a weekly schedule for garbage food, and I do now know. I do not know the difference between feral pigeons and race pigeons. However, I believe that race pigeons are from feral rather than made by human. If once race birds are selected from the wild, the chance is that it can be done again and again. Do race birds happen to have some mutations among the wild? Do race bird people keep inbreeding them to hold on to these mutations? How many families of race birds in the world are able to compete against one another to get an equal chance of winning? Or just a few as a result of careful breeding methods and good luck?
Besides, during breeding for good racers, there are thousands of unwanted chicks. Is eating them inhuman? How we rid of them? When I was in my old country in Vietnam, I raised home pigeons for meat, and people serve them in restaurant. I do not like pigeon meat very much, but it is much delicious than nothing to eat.
I think I raise feral pigeons, breeding them against racing birds, just to find how easy or difficult to get the mutation that makes the winners? Please, point out where my plan need foundation.


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## sangha (Dec 29, 2012)

NZpouter


Very nice birds mate


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