# Black to Black



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I am no color guy and hardly have any colored pigeons but this year I am breeding some black Huskens and am wondering? Does black mated to black always make black?


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## bundyray (Nov 7, 2009)

if your lucky you score recessive red  (only if it's in the background)


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Well, the babies are looking pretty dark, I don't know if they are dark enough to be black yet but they are dark for sure.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The gene that turns blue to black is called spread. Spread is dominant, so it only takes one copy of the gene to have it show.

So yes, if both parents are black, then all the babies will be black. The only time you could get some normal offspring as well, is if one parent is normal colored, and the other is het. for black. Then you'd get 50/50. But that's not the case here


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I Have never seen a black Husken,but that was years ago, wouldn't mind having a few of those. I have seen some dark velvets that appeared black. Good luck with your Black Huskens there Ohiogsp. Kurps


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The gene that turns blue to black is called spread. Spread is dominant, so it only takes one copy of the gene to have it show.
> 
> So yes, if both parents are black, then all the babies will be black. The only time you could get some normal offspring as well, is if one parent is normal colored, and the other is het. for black. Then you'd get 50/50. But that's not the case here



Cool thanks for the info.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

M Kurps said:


> I Have never seen a black Husken,but that was years ago, wouldn't mind having a few of those. I have seen some dark velvets that appeared black. Good luck with your Black Huskens there Ohiogsp. Kurps


The cock is not full husken but the hen is I got her from the snowfest this year. Funny thing is after I got her I was hangin with Ray Jones and he handled the bird and said the same thing that he never saw a black husken before but he really liked the bird. He likes colored pigeons and they had a beautiful indigo there that sold for top money. We'll see how these babies fly this year. I always get one black every year from a black stassart/havenith hen I have and the bird is usually a good one but I seem to loose them after about 200 miles in the races. I hope these will do better, only time will tell.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

ohiogsp said:


> The cock is not full husken but the hen is I got her from the snowfest this year. Funny thing is after I got her I was hangin with Ray Jones and he handled the bird and said the same thing that he never saw a black husken before but he really liked the bird. He likes colored pigeons and they had a *beautiful indigo* there that sold for top money. We'll see how these babies fly this year. I always get one black every year from a black stassart/havenith hen I have and the bird is usually a good one but I seem to loose them after about 200 miles in the races. I hope these will do better, only time will tell.


GAH. Now I'm even more sad I couldn't go  Indigo is my favorite color in homers.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

First of all black and black may not always result in black  White and white may not always result in white  

But you have a very good chance to get black always from the black parents, if the grand parents were also black. 

As explained in one of the posts in this forum on pigeon genetics, the male pigeon has two colors, one seen outside and one hidden inside, the female has only one color as seen outside. 

So if the pair is black outside, the female is true black but the male have one more color in his genes which is hidden. If that hidden male color is also black (dont know the feasibility of both these colors being the same) then you will have black pigeons as offsprings. If its some other color then you can have either black or other combinations 

Give a read http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics.asp

I found the details in this site very usefull in judging the pigeon sexes of the young pigeons. It can be very difficult if both parents have combination colors, but very straight leading when the pairs have different plain colors or different body characteristics like the crest feather


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Black isn't a color, it is blue with the spread modifier. With the basic colors - ash-red, blue, and brown - hens will only have one gene for it. But many other genes that have to do with color appearance, they have the normal two. If I remember correctly, spread is one of those.


I did make a mistake in saying two blacks always make 100% blacks. I don't know what I was thinking  If both if both are het. for it, then you get 50/50. If at least one parents is pure black, then all children will be black as well.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I am about 90 percent sure the one baby is not going to be black but we will see. It has just been banded reciently so not sure but I am going to guess a gray smoky colored bird.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Black isn't a color, it is blue with the spread modifier. With the basic colors - ash-red, blue, and brown - hens will only have one gene for it. But many other genes that have to do with color appearance, they have the normal two. If I remember correctly, spread is one of those.
> 
> 
> I did make a mistake in saying two blacks always make 100% blacks. I don't know what I was thinking  If both if both are het. for it, then you get 50/50. If at least one parents is pure black, then all children will be black as well.


What is a spread modifier ?


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/Spread.html this might be helpful.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

NetRider said:


> http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/Spread.html this might be helpful.


Nice, Thanks


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

To answer your original question - no, if both birds are black then you need not always get all blacks. See number 3

1) If both original blacks are homozygous for spread (then all young are **** for spread and therefore black) - _I'm assuming neither birds carries anything like recessive white, recessive red, recessive opal, etc._

2) If one original bird is homozygous Spread (black) and the other is heterozygous Spread, all young will be black with 50% of them being heterozygous for Spread

3) If both original birds are heterozygous Spread, then you will get 25% homozygous Spread *(Blacks); 50% heterozygous Spread (blacks); _AND 25% non-spread (wild-type so these birds will be blue, blue check, T-pattern check, etc.,_ depending on what's under the Spread of the parents.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

OK, one of the babies looks like a spread pattern tan bird. I had anouther weird thing happen to me I have a red cock with white flights (dirty) breed a bb hen with a very small white splash on her and the baby is solid white!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

ohiogsp said:


> OK, one of the babies looks like a spread pattern tan bird. I had anouther weird thing happen to me I have a red cock with white flights (dirty) breed a bb hen with a very small white splash on her and the baby is solid white!


He he, I have a pair of mixed colors, with red brown and with white spalshes on the wings and white tail and flight feathers. They give me one solid white baby on every hatch for 3 rounds, now they have started giving white with black and brown splashes


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

ohiogsp said:


> OK, one of the babies looks like a spread pattern tan bird. I had anouther weird thing happen to me I have a red cock with white flights (dirty) breed a bb hen with a very small white splash on her and the baby is solid white!


That's interesting. A tan colored bird? Can you post some pictures?

Sounds like those two were carrying recessive white genes.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I wil get pics. It is a tan colored spread. It's not red at all.


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