# Young wood pigeon with canker - need advice



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Hi all,

I've got a bit of an odd situation which I need some advice on. I volunteer at a local wildlife rescue centre, and recently took home a couple of suspected wood pigeon squabs for regular hand feeding. I work at home, so it's not a problem feeding them regularly.

However, one of the pigeons (the actual wood pigeon, the other has since turned out to be a feral) seems to have developed canker, and the wildlife centre has insisted they keep them in the center on a course of their preferred anti-canker medication - metronidazole.

The treatment is to last 8 days. 1/16th of a tablet per day I believe (sorry, don't know what size the tablet is or the conc.)

Now, they've had limited success with metronidazole, and I've heard from other sources that it's a relatively high-toxicity drug. I've also heard that for treating canker in pigeons, Spartrix (carnidazole) is much more effective, and only needs one dose. 

Now, convincing the people who run the centre of this is going to be hard - they're slightly stuck in their ways. I'll work on that, however...

Ideally I'd like to know if there are any ramifications of dosing a bird with both metronidazole and Spartrix at the same time. I know that overdosing of Spartrix is safe up to 10x the recommended dose (via clinical study) but I can't find any evidence of any problems (or lack thereof) of treating with both drugs at the same time.

So, could anyone offer advice on the above? Ideally I'd like to get the two squabs dosed with Spartrix, back to health, and back to my care. There's are signs of a potential outbreak of Newcastle disease at the centre, and apart from that, I'd really prefer to have the birds in a warm environment where I can give them my full attention - something that won't happen at the centre.

Thanks for any advice.
Chris.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Chris,

Welcome to pigeon Talk


I have sent this to Cynthia's attention, who is also in the UK, and she is one rehabber expert that I know who has dealt with wood pigeons in the past. I know they are a bit different to handle then regular feral pigeons, so hope she is able to reply soon.

Thank you


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hello Chris and welcome to the forum.

Cynthia and John are our wonderful rehabbers in GB and can probably help you. We use metronidazole and find it very effective. We also occasionally use Spartrix but I personally prefer the Metronidazole.

You can use our search function typing in Spartrix and Metronidazole and find many threads devoted to this subject but I did find one that answers at least part of your question - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=162317&postcount=8

Good luck and thank you so much for caring for these birds.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Chris,

It's good to see you here on Pigeon-Talk .. welcome aboard!

I know you've already seen my posts to Maisie so will not repeat them here. Best of luck with your little pigeon buddies!

Terry


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Thank you all kindly for the welcomes - I'll be sure to stick around and learn as much as I can - already learned so much! 

I'll go to the wildlife centre today and see if I can give them the Spartrix in addition to the metronidazole. I already have the tablets, and I'm figuring half a 10mg tablet (5mg) will be the correct dose for them both.

For the woody with the actual canker lump, we're changing him from 'pigeon mix' (which is: Eggfood (usually for budgies/parakeets) + small seeds (like canary food I guess) + chick crumb + SA37) to Exact, delivered with a thin 15ml syringe. 

What's the best way to deliver the Spartrix? Crushed and mixed with the Exact? Or dissolved in water separately? Or some other way perhaps?

Sneezy (the woody) and Squeaker send their thanks


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

They are both so sweet!

I hope the canker clears up quickly.

We have had a bit of an epidemic here, I took 6 victims in in one week and they all responded well to Spartrix and were released. The 10 mg tablet is designed for adults, so a squab would get whatever is proportionate to his size (feral squabs get half, but a woodie weighs more and would probably get more).

This last time I crushed the Spartrix into a mixture of Critical Care Formula. , They will need at least three doses.

I also use metronidazole at the same time for severe cases . Some strains of canker are resistant to Spartrix.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> There's are signs of a potential outbreak of Newcastle disease at the centre,


Are they certain it is Newcastle Disease ( ND ) and not paramyxovirus (PMV)? Newcastle is much, much more serious and leads to wholesale slaughter and something like a 10 mile exclusion zone. The last outbreak in the UK was among the imported pheasants at a place in Surrey. PMV is with us all the time.

This is what DEFRA's guidance on PMV:

"all cases, suspected disease must be reported to your local Divisional Veterinary Manager. PMV is potentially very serious and this is why it was made notifiable. If you suspect the disease in your birds, you should contact your Defra local Divisional Veterinary Manager."

Keep your birds confined until a Veterinary Officer has made a diagnosis. If PMV infection is suspected, the Veterinary Officer will send carcases and blood samples to a Defra Laboratory for diagnosis and your premises will be placed under movement restrictions. If disease is subsequently confirmed these restrictions will be retained until disease no longer exists. At this point, restrictions will be removed if no birds remain on the premises. Where live birds remain, restrictions will be maintained for a further 60 days to ensure that no further clinical signs appear in that time."

[/URL]

And this is on ND:

Legislation
Animal Health Act 1981
The Animal Health Act 1981 provides powers for the control of outbreaks of AI and ND. It was amended in 2002 to provide more powers to deal with foot and mouth disease and these powers were extended by the Avian Influenza and Newcastle Disease (England and Wales) Order in 2003 so that they are now exercisable in relation to AI and ND. The Act, as amended, provides for:

slaughter of diseased poultry, poultry suspected of disease, poultry exposed to disease and poultry which the Secretary of State thinks should be slaughtered to prevent the spread of disease. 
payment of compensation for birds that are slaughtered but are not diseased. 
publication of a slaughter protocol prior to exercising the power to impose a preventive or firebreak cull. Emergency vaccination would have to be considered prior to any cull, and, if not used, the reasons would have to be published. 
veterinary inspectors to have powers to enter premises to ascertain whether disease anti-bodies exist, whether any animal is or was infected with disease and whether any causative agent of disease is present 
publication of biosecurity guidance 
preparation and review of a national contingency plan 

Cynthia


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

I suppose I really should have elaborated on that "Newcastle Disease" thing. I very much doubt it is. I think there's been a little too much reading into it, and it could be a combination of other unrelated factors. 

Basically, one bird (species unknown to me) was put to sleep last week after reportedly exhibiting 'stargazing' - rolling back of the head, uncontrollable neck movements. This week, two other birds that were in the same room as that bird for a while have developed problems - one has pretty nasty diahorrea, and the other one is said to be developing 'balance problems', for example walking in a circle, strange head movements. Although to be honest when I looked at the head movements, they looked about normal to me, particularly for a bird which was placed on a low shelf and had to look up to see what the humans were up to.

I'll check again today, but I suspect the bird with diahorrea is suffering from something completely unrelated, and I doubt there's much wrong with the other one, other than the fact that it's in a small cage on a low shelf.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Actually it sounds very much like PMV, but I am sorry that the centre puts them to sleep. London Wildcare nurses them back to health, so do many of our members.

Where are you? Is there any chance of getting them to me? They would be in isolation for 6 weeks.

Cynthia


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Ok, the two birds with the odd symptoms have been moved to a different room - effectively a quarantine. The one with the reported balance problems seems absolutely fine to me, but then again I haven't spent enough time with it to really tell.

The other one still has pretty major diarrhoea (spelled correctly this time!). I would say that PMV seems quite a lot more realistic than ND! I'm unaware of any other symptoms on that bird - just the diarrhoea.

I'm in Cheshire, UK. The wildlife centre is near Knutsford, but tends not to release birds to other centres or rehabbers unfortunately, and I doubt I'm in a position to change that policy, although I will try of course. 

Do you (or anyone for that matter) have any idea what meds the pigeon with diarrhoea should be on, assuming it is PMV? I think it's on Baytril at the moment, which is the standard 'catch-all' remedy applied there when there is no concrete diagnosis. _(EDIT: Sorry, once again, I ask before I search. I have now found the thread on PMV - very very useful. Thanks for that Cynthia - I will print it out and nail it to someone or something at the wildlife centre!)_

Today I managed to get the Spartrix into the wood pigeon squab. A little more than half a tablet, crushed up, mixed with a bit of (warm!) water, and then syringed into an empty crop. I followed that with 4 x 1ml syringes of Exact / water mix, and topped off with some of the pigeon mix mentioned earlier. In addition, the pigeon mix was made up with critical care formula. I think that's a good enough feed for a couple of hours certainly, and I intend to go back and check on him tonight. His breathing was a bit more laboured than when I last saw him, so he has gone a little worse, but hopefully (fingers crossed for the little guy) the Spartrix will hurry up and do its job. I just hope he's strong enough to recover. He's strong enough to fight me when I hand feed him!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The first symptom of PMV in one of my rescues was watery poops there was very little fecal matter in the large quantity of water that she passed. I am glad that the pgiens have been isolated rather than destroyed.

Critical Care Formula is a life saver in canker patients. You have done all the right things, his recovery really depends on whether the canker is resistant to carnidazole and whether it has done any internal damage. The majority of pigeons with canker that I have dealt with have made a full recovery but it is the few fatalities that I remember most. I hate losing a pigeon!

I will keep my thoughts positive.

Cynthia


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

The little canker patient is *SO* much more lively tonight. He was actually standing up, stretched to full height and nibbling my fingers, peeping all the while. He's occasionally shown an interest in food before, but not as much as tonight. Gave him loads of Exact, and some small seed mix, made up with CCF.

Still got a bit of a wheeze though, but less than previously I reckon. I am amazed at the transformation since I gave him the Spartrix just a few hours earlier. 

He's still got a long way to go, but I have everything crossed for him, and will check up on him again tomorrow. 

Hopefully, I think we've caught the canker before it's done any serious damage, but is there a way to tell? I guess keep an eye out on the yellowish lumps and see what happens.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is excellent news. I also noticed a dramatic overnight improvement in my latest patients after the first dose of Spartrix. But you need to dose him for another 3 days.

The longest recovery period that I have experienced is 10 days.

Cynthia


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Will be giving him (and Squeaker who was sharing syringes with him) another dose of Spartrix today. Still got my fingers crossed, and hope to be reporting good news later!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I will be looking out for your posts!

Cynthia


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Well, what a difference in 24hrs! It's like a different bird (don't worry, I checked it wasn't  ). He's much more alert and mobile - flapping his wings, peeping loudly, and nibbling my fingers looking for food. 

I wasn't able to spend as much time with him today as I'd like, so didn't get to check his breathing fully - but it's 100 times better than it was yesterday before the Spartrix. He's not opening his beak to breathe, or making noises when he breathes, and he seems a lot more relaxed in general. In fact, he's a lot less fluffed up.

He's had another 1/2 of Spartrix now, and we're keeping him mostly on the Exact, with perhaps one syringe full of the pigeon mix. 

I really wish I'd taken a photo now, but compared to the picture above, the difference in just a day after Spartrix treatment is incredible. He looks just like a woody should now! Will try and get a pic tomorrow.

He's now with 'squeaker' in a room called the duckling unit, which has heaters in it. Should keep them nice and warm from now on until the canker patient is fully recovered, and there's no further danger to the other one.

Of course, in the few days that this has been going on, the centre has admitted a couple more woody squabs (in reasonable shape), so it looks like things could get busy soon


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is very welcome news Chris!!!!

Do wood pigeons usually start breeding this early?



Cynthia


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

I don't think they're supposed to, but no one told the woodies, apparently!

The centre took in its first baby pigeon last year in.... January! Although I think it was a feral, rather than a woody.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Ferals will breed all year round if they have the food and a good nesting site. I thought that woodies were different.

Cynthia


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

My local woodies (in the tree about 20 yds away) started the courting and building about 2 weeks back,I think. 

Eustace Woodie starts to come over to my balcony again once they are into breeding 

John


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Great news, Chris! I hope your little patient will continue to improve!

Terry


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Today's update: Both pidgies are *very* loud and mobile now. Squeaker (the feral) just runs all over the place! There's no stopping him now - he seems to be on autopilot whenever there's a hand in sight that might have food!

Sneezy (the woody) doesn't sneeze anymore, and I've put him back on the pigeon mix. He's almost clear now. There's still a little residual canker nodule at the top of his crop, but his throat is more or less clear. He's breathing great, and making a lot of 'squeee' noises. Also very mobile, and is gaping very well, and accepting food all the way down and swallowing properly. 

I think with the canker he was reluctant to gape properly, or hold his head up for the food, as it must have hurt, but now he's loving it - stretches up properly, opens his beak wide, and gulps it down. I'm so happy for him 

Will post some piccies later. Was hard to take photos of them with one hand while trying to keep them still with the other!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It can be so satisfying to treat a pigeon with canker when it clears so quickly.

Tanks for the update.

Cynthia


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Well done, Chris ... always good to see and hear a pidge who wants his food 

John


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Pics as promised! First two are sneezy looking much better and nibbling my fingers for food. Last one is squeaker flapping around


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

I've been asked to post this one too, mainly for the silly trousers!


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Your update was wonderful as are your pictures Chris.  

Those are a couple of real doll babies. 

Cindy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

When I see photos of baby pigeons I can't stop smiling!

Cynthia


----------



## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Chris,

I volunteer at a Wildlife Centre too but just do basic cleaning out etc. but I am very interested in pigeons!!!

As Cynthia was saying, the pigeons we (London Wildcare) get in with PMV, we treat ( not with meds ) but basic food, water and care - we have one PMV squeaker that has been with us for 4 weeks - he has a very severe form of PMV but we are not giving up on him - he's with us for the duration - he appears to be improving so fingers crossed for him. 

We also have a feral squeaker like the one in your picture and what a baby doll he is.... I just love them - they just want to be loved - so when I am there he has to come out for a cuddle!! 

All the best with your charges and please do come and visit here often re pigeon advice - its the best!! 

Tania x


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Chris,

The babies are just adorable, thanks for sharing.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wonderful pics, wonderful babies, and wonderful news .. thanks for sharing with us, Chris!

Terry


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Chris Y said:


> I've been asked to post this one too, mainly for the silly trousers!


OMGosh........how cute is that?? What sweet little babies.


----------



## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Chris, You and Maisie should give them a home, I know you both would be wonderful pijjie parents, hint, hint .


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Ok guys, little update on the little 'uns.

Squeaker and sneezy are doing just fine. There's a little worry that they may have imprinted a little - they're certainly the noisiest pijies at the centre! Anytime you go in 'their' room, you get the full on squee squee squee treatment. Hopefully though when they start to learn to fly their wild instincts will take over and they'll be fine. Certainly I hope I've given them the best start in life that we could offer them.

Sneezy (the Woodie) is about 28 days (or older) now. Still reliant on hand-feeds though - we're showing him what corn and seed look like but he doesn't seem to interested. Squeaker (the feral) on the other hand is eating by himself! He's only probably 22 days old, and I really can't believe how quickly he's growing up! One of the other staff members at the centre said that ferals do grow quicker than woodies, and woodies can reach a certain stage and just seem to slow down (matching their adult performances I reckon). This seems to be playing out with these two.

Meanwhile, the other two ferals (with suspected PMV) are still showing no signs of seed tossing or balance problems. They've been there for about 2 or 3 weeks now. Poops are still a little runny, but more solid than they were. They seem to be thin strands of poop, coiled up. Light green. Some watery bits, but quite a lot of solids too. I don't think this is PMV anymore, but something else, although I have no idea what.

There are another 2 woodies who came into the centre just over a week ago - they're about the same age as Squeaker, but they seem to be fiercely independent. They don't appreciate hand-feeds and have a tendancy to wing-fu anyone checking their crops! It looks like today they've started to eat on their own too, so I'm guessing these guys are going to be able to look after themselves.

Today I did a few things that I don't normally get to do - held a swan while its leg bandage was changed and it had an injection, helped test-fly a bat with a swollen wing-joint, and chased a pheasant round a small room trying to recapture it! 

Here's some pictures of cuteness:

Squeaker:

















CHARGE!!!!:









Sneezy getting his crop massaged:


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Sneezy:









And for a little while now the wildlife centre has one of these.. He's a Golden Pheasant (not the one I was trying to recapture!):










As for giving them a home... Well, it would be kinda nice, but realistically I don't think we could give them everything they need - space of their own, lots of time and attention. I honestly think they're better being raised properly and released wild - the wildlife centre is in the middle of a forest basically, and previous pigeon releases there have gone really well and the birds live a very good life - the woodies get their freedom, and the ferals stick around and enjoy the human company too!


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Those pics are hilarious, especially the "charge". He is soooo cute.
Sounds like the set up is great for release.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WOW! That Golden Pheasant is SPECTACULAR!! What beautiful colors! 

Your squabbie pics are really cute and sure capture their expressions! CHARGE is especially funny!!

Keep 'em comin'!!     

Shi
&
Mr. Squeaks


----------



## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

If you want to treat it if it has canker, use spartrix. It has done wonders for me. I had one that he had his mouth open to breath, no voice whatsoever, and it sounded like he was gargling when he was breathing. jsut 1 dose brought it back to full recovery.


----------



## Chris Y (Mar 5, 2007)

Flying Pidgy, yes - we used the Spartrix in combination with the metronidazole - have a read of the first page where I praise the Spartrix for its effectiveness!


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Chris,
What great pictures. I love the charge picture also. Sneezy and Squeaker look to be quite the characters. What a fantastic experience for you to be involved in the care of so many creatures.


----------

