# Overdosed Fantails



## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Good Morning All,

Well I purchased 14 Indian fantails at a great price on Saturday. The person i bought them from had them in a coop with a dirt floor so when I got home with them I immediately wormed them with Ivomec Inject-able but did it orally. I gave them each 3 drops per bird. I woke up on Sunday morning to find 4 of the 14 dead and 1 that looked like he just came in from an all nighter at the bar. Why would it have killed some but not others? All the others were fine and very active. I realize i gave them a little too much but they all received the same dosage and were all around the same age and size.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sport14692 said:


> Good Morning All,
> 
> Well I purchased 14 Indian fantails at a great price on Saturday. The person i bought them from had them in a coop with a dirt floor so when I got home with them I immediately wormed them with Ivomec Inject-able but did it orally. I gave them each 3 drops per bird. I woke up on Sunday morning to find 4 of the 14 dead and 1 that looked like he just came in from an all nighter at the bar. Why would it have killed some but not others? All the others were fine and very active. I realize i gave them a little too much but they all received the same dosage and were all around the same age and size.


just luckey, can't really tell you why they were able to handle the overdose better.. just a guess they were in better health perhaps. who told you to give them 3 drops?.. what a disaster.


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## diwaj (Aug 7, 2008)

Can Inject-able medicine be given Orally..!?
Hope its because of this not of overdose.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Smaller birds you give less three drops For an indian fan should not cause this If you carfully counted 3 drops BUT if they were fed right after Some birds will throw up from the worming And this could cause them to possibly choke and block there air way. So it is possible the died from that. 2 to 3 drops is normal use And was it close to dark when you you treated them.


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Yes it was around 6PM when I treated them


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Might be good if we add in some numbers to the discussion, for Ivermectin 1% what is recommended by the book and what the anecdotal dosing that is generally accepted and in use.

By the book, the suggested dosing for Pigeons for 1% Ivermectin is 0.50-1mg/kg once, then again in 12-14 days. What this means is that 1% Ivermectin has 10mg of pure Ivermectin in each 1mL/cc. This means that each 0.10mL/cc has 1mg (basically 2 drops), by the book, this means that a Pigeon that weighs 300g should get, 0.03mL/cc (less than 1 drop). This is at the upper dosing range of 1mg/kg, if you went by the lower dosing range, 0.50mg/kg, it would mean this same pigeon should get 0.015mL/cc, less than a 1/3 of 1 drop.

The dosing of 2 drops of 1% Ivermectin straight down the throat is an anecdotal dosing amount seen not only here at Pigeon-Talk when searched, but also widely through the web on a number of sites, and generally considered to be safe. However, as you can see, by the book this dosing is multiples above book dosing.

If you sift through the information out there, you will find the sporadic reports of usual deaths after using Ivermectin and if not deaths then birds suffering ataxia and mild paralysis (I think I remember Msfreebird mentioned in a post that she had this happen after using Ivermectin - the paralysis). There is thought that some birds are genetically more sensitive to the medicine. 

Karyn


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Yea I totally screwed up, I feel so bad


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

Wow! I bought a bottle about a month ago from Foys.
ivermectin it says sheep drench on the bottle.
I was waiting for the molt to clear before using it for the first time. I have racing homers and now after reading this I am afraid to use it. I don't want to kill my birds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

sport14692 said:


> Yea I totally screwed up, I feel so bad


With so much information out there it's hard to sometimes figure out just where you should be with things sometimes. I have also seen suggested dosing of 2-3 drops, so it not like you where way out of the ball park with what you did, with what can be found out there for suggested dosing. I am sorry for your loss of these birds, please accept my condolences. As a suggestion, you may want to try Pyrantel Pamoate as a de-wormer in the future. It does not have as wide a spectrum of treatment as Ivermectin, but I find it, at least when I have used it, very effective. In fact, I had one bird, I knew had a worm infection, but was not responding to Ivermectin, I tried the Pyrantel and the next morning there was a half dozen worms in her droppings. Plus, with Pyrantel you really would have to work at hurting a bird with it, as its safety margin is substantially greater than Ivermectin.

Good luck with your birds,

Karyn


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Kalkbl said:


> Wow! I bought a bottle about a month ago from Foys.
> ivermectin it says sheep drench on the bottle.
> I was waiting for the molt to clear before using it for the first time. I have racing homers and now after reading this I am afraid to use it. I don't want to kill my birds.


The drench will not kill your birds. You put it in the drinking water, rather than dropping it directly down the bird's throat. I have used the sheep drench many times with success. I also put it in the bath water. Use the directions on Foy's site for the dosage per gallon and you will be fine


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

ivomec is made for many types of animals. I have used the cattle ivomec for use on goats and dogs. If you inject a dog you will kill it but if you give it by mouth it works great with one big bit of caution. Make sure the dog does not have heart worms. I killed a dalmation I had for about a year as I used ivomec once a year. I know that ivomec is one cc per hundred pounds of body weight. I used distilled water to cut it 50-50 and gave the goats 2 ccs each as most weighted about 100.

Sorry for your loss but you really have to becareful of all meds. I will be looking into using ivomec on my birds. I will likely dilute it to make measuring it easier. Also never use the same wormer twice in a row. All my animal get a rotation of wormers. Goats get wormed ever 3 months and ivomec was always used Sept. as it was the best to get them ready for winter.


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

i use swine or cattle ivermectin 1% injectable, i put 3 ml's in a gallon of water and let them bath in it, it deworms and delouses, i've also put 2 to 3 drops under their wing, it absorbs through the skin, i also use it for heartworm prevention in my dogs, 0.10ml per 10lbs but never over 0.80mls even for the bigger breeds!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That reminds me. I've heard of putting 3 drops on the skin of the birds (you'd have to get past the feathers of course) but not down the throat (for that, I've only heard one drop per bird). Perhaps that's where the confusion comes from? Or maybe the 3 drops on the skin was false info as well.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

2 to 3 drops down the throat has been done for many years by many people. I used 2 drops never lost any birds And treated hundreds. But with smaller pigeon 1 drop might work indian fantails are not small So 2 three drops would be ok. Now like i said some will thropw up and they could choke. This may have happened OR they have been treated right before you got them Far as putting on the body You can rub it on there legs It helps get rid of mites and lice. You even notice after yu worm them they are not buggy. CATS though 3 drops will kill them This i was told by a person that wormed there cat with 3 dropsa it died in a few hours. Any time you med a bird it can help or not. Ivermec also should be done more then 30 days before breeding as it does effect fertiling temporary causeing the birds to go sterile This I had been told many times. But 1 thing you sure notice the birds putting there weight back on after worming Because it does kill the worms I used a regular eye dropper Have to pour the ivermic into another bottle that you can draw from because it is sealed for a sryinge use.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Just a caution that 1% Ivermectin injectable does not dissolve in water very well, so if you do add it to a gallon of water, then shake, a higher concentration will be at the surface area and if a bird were to drink this it could result in an overdose. Also, an Ivermectin drench is different than a "Pour-On" Ivermectin product (used a lot with cattle, and a much higher concentration at 5%), the first one tends to be soluble in water and the second not, as it's oil based, and myself, I could see how some people might think a Drench and a Pour-On product might be essentially the same, I mention this so people are aware they are not the same. Basially, we need to be real careful about reading the label instructions, both for use and concentration.

As I mentioned in my first post, 2 drops orally is a pretty common use dosing of the 1% Ivermectin injectable, one I have used myself (although of late, I have been using 1 drop). I do think the problems, when encountered, may come from a predisposition of a given bird to be sensitive to this medication.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Thanks Dobato for the heads up on this thread!
I'm so sorry about your birds Sport 
This is a post I made not that long ago when someone was asking about Ivermectin.......
"Worming meds make me nervous! I use to use Eqvalen (ivermec horse drench), but its been on backorder for over a year (something about the labeling).
The first time I wormed my birds with ivermectin, I lost 2. I read that one possible side effect of ivermectin is 'temporary paralysis'. So when I had to repeat their worming, I did it on my day off and watched them afterward. 1 bird dropped to the bottom of the flight cage - paralyzed. He was alive but couldn't use his legs. I took him inside and the next day he was fine. So the first 2 did not die from the worming med, but instead were trampled while down 3 out of 80 birds got that rare side effect!
My vet told me to cut the individual dose in half OR put it in their drinking water. Since then I've had no problem. I would rotate between ivermectin and pyrantal. But I actually prefer pyrantal now. It's VERY safe AND effective. I give it to the whole loft, in their drinking water 3-4 times a year."

*What makes me really nervous in the threads about Ivermectin is that*.......when people say 2-3 drops down the throat  
There are many 'forms' and 'strengths' of Ivermectin as Dobato is trying to point out. So it depends on what form and strength you are using.
For example - the Eqvalan (horse drench) that I use, is 10mg per ML to be used as a DRENCH (meaning 'in water'). So the correct dose for this one is 3.78mls per gallon of water. Also can be given orally, but the dose is .02ml per bird.
The injectable type does not dissolve and is not meant to be used in water.
Unfortunately, I do think you overdosed them. But also, a possible side effect of Ivermectin is 'temporary paralysis". My birds didn't die of overdose, they were paralyzed after treatment then trampled to death and picked on by the other birds.
Some birds and breeds have a predisposed sensitivity to ivermectin causing this paralysis. We've had several Collie dogs come in to work paralyzed in the past after taking 'Heartgard' heartworm preventative. They come out of it with support (as my birds did after second treatment).
So to tell someone 2-3 drops down the throat or under the wings is not correct for ALL Ivermectins.
Oh, and just to clarify, the birds I lost were homers. I use 1.50mls per gallon of water for my American Fantails.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Kalkbl said:


> Wow! I bought a bottle about a month ago from Foys.
> ivermectin it says sheep drench on the bottle.
> I was waiting for the molt to clear before using it for the first time. I have racing homers and now after reading this I am afraid to use it. I don't want to kill my birds.


*Hi Kalkbl, Ivomectin comes in two types the injectable and the drench, the drench is .8% while the injectable is stronger 1.%. The drench is ment to be used in the drinking water at the rate of 8cc per 1 gallon for one day then repeat in 10-12 days.You can call FOYS and ask them, * GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

sport14692 said:


> Good Morning All,
> 
> Well I purchased 14 Indian fantails at a great price on Saturday. The person i bought them from had them in a coop with a dirt floor so when I got home with them I immediately wormed them with Ivomec Inject-able but did it orally. I gave them each 3 drops per bird. I woke up on Sunday morning to find 4 of the 14 dead and 1 that looked like he just came in from an all nighter at the bar. Why would it have killed some but not others? All the others were fine and very active. I realize i gave them a little too much but they all received the same dosage and were all around the same age and size.


* Hi Sport, I used the injectable on my race birds when I was into racing 3 drops never had any die.The Fantails are smaller and I would have given them only 2 drops.In your case you should have quarantined them, and waited for a few days so that the birds could over come the STRESS that they were under., and then given them the wormer. Last thing you may have bought some sick birds and they may have been in a weaker condishion and those are the ones that died.* George


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

george simon said:


> *Hi Kalkbl, Ivomectin comes in two types the injectable and the drench, the drench is .8% while the injectable is stronger 1.%. The drench is ment to be used in the drinking water at the rate of 8cc per 1 gallon for one day then repeat in 10-12 days.You can call FOYS and ask them, * GEORGE


Which drench is 8%? Cattle, Sheep or Horse?
Mine - 'Eqvalan' (horse drench) does NOT specify any percentage anywhere on the label. It only specifies "Each ml contains 10mg ivermectin"
I buy mine directly from 'Merial' (the company that makes it and supplies veterinarians only)


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

Thank you george and others.
I will double check and use it very carefully.

I have the sheep drench and will check the label when I get home. I will post what percentage it says if any.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Which drench is 8%? Cattle, Sheep or Horse?
> Mine - 'Eqvalan' (horse drench) does NOT specify any percentage anywhere on the label. It only specifies "Each ml contains 10mg ivermectin"
> I buy mine directly from 'Merial' (the company that makes it and supplies veterinarians only)


Waynette, if you are anything like me, from time to time we have to clean our glasses, I think you may have missed the decimal point, .8% and not 8%, plus I think there should be a zero in front of the .8, so, 0.08% is the strength of the Sheep Drench.

George was correct in the amount that Foy's suggests adding to a gallon of water, 8cc/mL. I just wanted to reinforce what a powerful medicine Ivermectin is, by using the suggested Drench dosing as an example. By using 8mL of the 0.08% Sheep Drench into a gallon of water this means in real numbers we are adding 6.4mg of pure Ivermectin to that gallon of water.

We know that when we dose the 1% Ivermectin Injectable orally, using the common dosing of 2 drops (.10mL), we are giving 1mg of pure Ivermectin (1% means there are 10mg in each 1mL, so 1/10 of 1mL would be 1mg). For a bird to get this same dose by drinking the medicated Sheep Drench water, a bird would need to drink 20 ounces of this water, pretty hard for even a giant runt to do . I think this makes a good example that a little of this medicine goes a long way and is still effective.

Karyn


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

Great info karen.
I may have a problem then. I only have 20 birds total over 4 different sections. My largest section only has 8 birds in it.
I am using a half gallon waters, and they drink virtually nothing. Not even 1 quarter of a waterer.
I may not be able to get enough of the drench into them to do any good??


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Waynette, if you are anything like me, from time to time we have to clean our glasses, I think you may have missed the decimal point, .8% and not 8%, plus I think there should be a zero in front of the .8, so, 0.08% is the strength of the Sheep Drench.
> 
> George was correct in the amount that Foy's suggests adding to a gallon of water, 8cc/mL. I just wanted to reinforce what a powerful medicine Ivermectin is, by using the suggested Drench dosing as an example. By using 8mL of the 0.08% Sheep Drench into a gallon of water this means in real numbers we are adding 6.4mg of pure Ivermectin to that gallon of water.
> 
> ...


I get that! 
What I'm trying to point out is that mine does not list the amount of ivermectin in percentage on the label. It only lists the milligrams per ml. Which makes it confusing when trying to get a correct dose when someone says .08% or 1%. I am terrible with math  .....that's your department! So with that said, Ivermectin can be very easily overdosed.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kalkbl said:


> Great info karen.
> I may have a problem then. I only have 20 birds total over 4 different sections. My largest section only has 8 birds in it.
> I am using a half gallon waters, and they drink virtually nothing. Not even 1 quarter of a waterer.
> I may not be able to get enough of the drench into them to do any good??


If you are using half gallon waters, filled, this would be about 64oz for 8 birds. You say the 8 birds are not drinking 1/4 of this, but this sounds about right, as 1/4 would be 16oz. Depending on a bunch of conditions, as a rough guide, a bird is going to drink about 10% of its body weight a day, for 8 birds, in the 350-400g area, this would mean about 9-12oz of water between them, which sounds like what they are doing from what you describe, so things sound fine.

Karyn


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

Truth is I only fill them up half way. And I still dump a lot out on the ground at dark.
My birds really only fly twice a week so they are not being pushed very hard right now maybe that is why.
I guess I should weigh a waterer when I fill it up and then weigh it again when I take it out


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

I have personally used injectable ivermectin 2 drops down the throat for my 20-25 fantails many many times...i have never ever lost a single bird.I don't think the cause of this death was ivermectin...


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