# Baby Dove has hard Crop



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...




Anyway, lovely little Dove, all quills...still has her little 'white' Egg Tooth...

Crop hard-as-a-rock.

I have had her maybe three hours now or something...she spent who knows how much of the day on the ground somewhere where supposedly her Nest is up in a Tree and way out on a high branch.

So far so good...many small sipping sessions of Water with a little Salt and Sugar in it, and, so far, made two poops with some clear water dumping in them.

Crop was distended, tender and hard when I recieved her, and remains hard now if less tender. I have been starting to very VERY gently massage it, but initialy the poor little thing did not want me touching it at all with reactions of pain if I did...so, I just did little Water sipping sessions and hand-nest. She is very comfortable in hand-nest and fine with being picked up and so on, just her Crop is tender.

Any ideas on what else I should do?

If I can, I will get her back in that nest once I am satisfied she is alright. The people who brought her did not think it would be possible because of the height and the slender branch it is on...so...dunno if I will be able to.

Images may be seen via -

http://community.webshots.com/album/390805705EfkOSC

Fennel Tea?


Phil
el vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Phil,

I think keeping the baby warm, giving water, and gently massaging is the right approach for now. That baby truly is/was full as a little tick!

I know we all often see the "hard crop syndrome" in babies once they truly discover seeds, and it is important to assure that they are also getting fluids and passing the mass of seeds on through their system in a normal manner.

I think you've got it handled and bless you for doing so!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry...!


Thank you...yea...I am thinking this one's parents must have stuffed it to the gills with really tiny Grass Seeds or something, where I can not feel any texture like one tends to be able to do with Pigeon Babys...and that likely it got enough water earlier for the Seeds to hydrate, then...everything kinda stopped there with no real egress of them to their gizzard, maybe, from the fall or something.

Such a delicate little cutie!

I think I will do some Fennel Tea...and very easy massages...


She sure likes that Hand-Nest...and will really climb to get into it too, then is very comfy.

I think with many Babys who came from Tree Nests, the small or medium motions of being in Hand Nest are familiar, where, those from static ledges and so on, get a little vetigo if you are carrying them about or kind of moveing as one would do, and so on...Lol...

Phil
l v


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Phil,
What a sweet baby. Think about replacing her in the nest, before you do it. Why did she end up out of the nest in the first place? Can you safely replace her, and if she falls out of the nest again, will she be as lucky the next time it happens? I know what I'd do, check out the situation thoroughly, and if I didn't think returning her would have good outcome, she'd be a guest at my house til she was ready to move on.
Daryl


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Daryl,

Yea, good mentions...

I just like to find out when I can...

The people who found her felt the Nest was way high and on a slender long limb anyway.

No idea why the Baby might have fallen out or been expelled.

Poops from over-night, are many! -and tiny, and good looking thankfully...

Crop is still pretty much the same presently, 1:20 p.m. now...like an acorn or something in there...damn...

Could this be something other than her Crop's hardened contents? a tumor or something?

Baby is bright and interested in being fed...I do not want to feed untill that Crop softens and empties, so...maybe some very thin Soups...

I had set her in some soft cloths on a heating pad for the night, and covered her in some rumple of the soft cloth. She seemed to like that, she likes being covered. If I have my hand near, she either tries to climb in it, or under it. She really likes it if I cup my hand over her...or around and over, in hand-nest...

--- p.s.

Left this in edit-mode, and checked on her, and she was making signs of wishing to be fed...

So...I made a little batch of some quite 'thin' soup...Fennel Tea, some Lorribush 'squab-powder-baby-formula', some 'Nekton' vitamines and minerals, and a dab of pro-biotics...

I fill the hollow side of the Baby Nipple with the tepid liquid...and all of a sudden I have an assertive, miniature 'Squeaker' on my hands here..!

Her HEAD will fit inside the nipple for crying out loud! she is to tiny...

So I offer the nipple, and low and behold, guide her little nuzzleing all over the place slender Beak into a small area for her Beak to go in, that I have two finger tips next to...and...she is sipping...and...I kinds let her get her head more into it a little and...she drinks the whole thing! Maybe there is one drop left in it, and that's all...

Yeeeeeeesh! I was expecting a few little sips merely...

She wants more, is getting all wound up now...but I will wait a little while and see about some very gentle Crop massages...I want to see that Crop soften and start emptying more...so...golly...

What a charmer...


Phil
las vegas


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, Phil,
I just don't want either of you having a bad case of "Fall Down- Go Boom" Too many little'uns rely on you, and none of us can come take care of you if you end up in a cast, and cranky besides  
Your new baby is precious.
My two in house handfeeding babies are doing super, the two in-be-tween kids in the loft are driving their parents crazy, begging for food, and Speck and her mate just hatched out two babies this morning. The only way I know was by finding those little empty eggshells shoved to the side of the nest box. The button quail go nuts when they get the eggshells, funny looking to see a butt-butt with half an eggshell flipped up over it's head, looking like a little helmet. I have a gazillion butt-butt eggs in the bator, if they all hatch, I just don't know what I'll do. Guess they'll have to go on a long hike and go visit Uncle Brad up in Canada.
The 14 chicks we hatched out not too long ago are growing like weeds. I have to put them in my big lobster pot when I clean their brooder. What was that old saying about a chicken in every pot. Well, I have 14 of the little buggers. They are a riot, running, sparring, scratching one minute, then the next time you look, they are flat out and sleeping, all tumbled together.
Well, everyone fed, settled, dishes washed and put away. Headed to bed to watch the rest of the nascar race with the old feller, then sleep. Husband up at 11 p.m. tonite, and on theroad. Me up at 4 a.m. and off to work.
Love to all,
Daryl


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Update - 

The lump-in-her-Crop is about half gone, seeming to be diminishing from it's back side...Yea!!!!

Was...as if she had an Acorn in there minus it's top...really odd, what the heck had she eaten???? Been fed I mean?

Anyway, many delicate light massages, as initially anyway, she reacted as if it were quite painful and tender, and, since, less so, so that now I can do more massage without her protesting or cringing. Still way too firm, but seems flat on the back now and of course a lot smaller overall.

Been feeding quite thin Soups, of a little Lorribush Squab Powder, "Nutrical", some pro-biotics, and a little "Nekton" Bird Vitamines and Mineral combo.

She is a little fussy on what she will eat, and some of my offerings were not found pleasing I guess ( I thought they were delicious!) ...this combo she seems to like...so...

Wish her luck!

She is a sweet and elegant, poised and gently enthusiastic little squablette...and so tiny!


Phil
las vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the update.
Sounds like she is improving. I think she'll be fine.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Reti,


...enthusiastic appetite this morning...put away twp nipple fulls of thinish 'Soup'...if I make it thicker, she does not like it...so...she wants more but gee-whiz, that is kind of a small Crop! So...I will wait a while...Lol...

She is doing the little Wing Pumping now, and more assertive nuzzleing.

Crop is still a little odd, than goodness the hardness is gone now, but it still is not done with emptying whatever it was which is now semi-firm merely...and smaller...

I just measured the volume of the Nipple - 5 mL...so, her initial Breakfast was 10 mL...

She herself ( now, after Breakfast that is ! ) weighs...30 grammes.

10 mL of thin Soup weights...something onto 3 grammes...

So, she'd have been around 17 g. before breakfast...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh boy....

I do not know what this is...

It went away then came back...like an 'Acorn' in there in her Crop...

Is this an Abcess?

Would not an Abcess have an unpleasant odor if it opens? Has it instead of opening, stretched her Crop to where now it is tearing?

Todays light feedings, the Liquid filled her Crop UNDER the 'acorn' size hard lump, while the small Seeds fed seperate, filled the smaller space ABOVE the lump...filing her neck slightly when I noticed, so I discontinued any feed since and let her have some Water now and then...

Then, late in the day, I see a moist area on the side of the lump near it's top...then I see a few wet small Seeds there, I look, her Crop area has a little split and small Seeds and liquid are comeing out there...no odor...but now, as of 11:12 P.M. a hole has opened up about 3/16ths of an inch across...I have not done any massage today but for some very light massage below it this morning...

I am not at all sure what to do!

She is active HUNGRY and marching and nuzzleing assertively and wing-flapping TO be fed, and I dare not feed her, now...disposition is good, not droopy or anything...active and perky and doing her Dove Baby wing flaps and "Feed me please!" things...

I have a 2:30 Appointment tomorrow with the Avian Vet I have not met yet who seems like he may a cool fellow...

Maybe the one I gave the Kestrel to could fit me in earlier...I will set my alarm and call first thing tomorrow...and see...

Anyone ever seen anything like this?

I sure never have...

Thank goodness she has been so happy and perky and so on...I am really worried on this thing. No blood, but the little Seeds I fed her earlier today and liquid...comeing out of the hole...


Any ideas?


Phil
& Dove Baby, 

Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

I don't have any suggestions in regards to this acorn size lump in her crop but I'm a little concerned about how much you're feeding her. You mentioned giving 10ml for her breakfast and you said her "before breakfast" weight was 17grams. That seems like an awful lot of formula for such a tiny little dove chick.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 

She wanted it! Ate two nipple's full of thin 'Soup', so I let her have it. She just buried her little head right down into the Nipple. It did not fill her up either, but sat comfortably at the base of her Crop...down low, under the mystery lump.

They can and will do it, for sure, even at this size. Really, if there was no lump there in the mid section of her crop, she could handle a lot more just fine.

Maybe this is a regional thing...was likely 117 - or so I heard - out today, 104 inside these rooms most likely...and they all drink a lot at breakfast...30mL or 40 mL for a youngish Pigeon her age, would not surprise me. They have pretty big Crops.

I would not 'feed' that much in the sense of me putting it down there for one so small, but she wanted a second helping, so I let her have one. She had room to spare, no problem...mostly Water with some other things dissolved into it.

Other meals, she tended to put away one Nipple full usually ( about 5 mL) ...sometimes one and a half.

If it was not for that lump-thing, she'd hold 20 mL easy...their wild dove parents really stuff them usually, much more than I would dare...same with the Wild Pigeon parents who REALLY stuff them in fact.

I have seen wild babys so full they walk leaning way forward with their Crops almost dragging from the weight...I have had many Nest-Fallen ones that way, way WAY stuffed with Seeds and Water.

Kinda funny...I never do that though...I will let them feed to about half that, tops.

Anyway, she handled the 10 mL just fine with no distention or discomfort and soon wanted more, but I waited a while and then only small feeds after, some tiny whole Seeds nuzzled from between paralell finger tips, and a few 2 mL sipping sessions...after that, I saw there was a new problem and layed off any more feeds at all, but for a couple little Water sippings of not much.

She is HUNGRY now! Ran over here onto the keyboard nuzzleing my fingers...I dare not feed her at all now so I put her into her sleeping Cage...

Otherwise, she is active, wishing to be fed, assertively nuzzleing and Wing flapping and so on...every inch a happy little Squeaker-ette.

Wish us luck for tomorrow...!


Phil
las vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Phil
could the lump be canker? 
A few month ago I had a pigeon with a lump above the crop area, I started her on flagyl and spartrix right away, the lump went down, but a week later she had a hole in her crop, everything I fed her came out of the hole. I took her to the vet hours after I saw the hole and he took her to the OR right away. He called me in during the surgery to show me what had happened. The canker had destroyed her esophagus and part of her crop, all she had was necrotic tissue. While I was feeding her during the past day (before the hole on the exterior appeared) was going into the abdominal cavity, not into the crop. That's why she was loosing weight, even though I was feeding her.
There was no tissue left to be sawn together to repair the esophagus and crop and the poor thing had to be PTS.

I am not saying that was your bird has, but it is posible that the "acorn" lump is canker, which we see quite often.

Good luck at the vets, hope it is not too bad.

Reti


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Oh, Phil,
My thoughts and prayers to you and that baby dove you have given us all the opportunity to come to knoa and love. Is there any way you can get her in to vet today? Sure sounds like something that shouldn't wait.
Love,
Daryl


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Ohhhhh...I wondered about this too...on the side of my thoughts.

I started her on 'Ronidazole' a few days ago. She did not like the taste of it being in her Water or food so I added a little Lorribush Nictivore powder and tried to balance out the flavors. I tasted the Water with the Ronidazole in it and I could see her point.

Well...maybe that is it...

Good mention, I appreciate it.

I have never seen anything like this before, I thought at first it was just a slow-cro0p from bruising from a Nest fall...and that her Crop was shrunk from bruising maybe, seeming to be smallish.

In retrospect ( and sadly, this is maybe how I tend to learn anyway, s-l-o-w-l-y sometimes, and in review...) if it had been a wad of little seeds and gluten and so on, it should have been sitting lower. for which reason I was wondering if it was a tumor of some kind, or, maybe, an abcess. being so 'hard' made no sense to me.

I did not really notice how her Crop had capacity 'lower' untill she put away the two-nipple fulls of thin Soup for her breakfast yesterday, when I saw then, how it sat below the lump and kinda added some easy filling of that area of her Crop. 

Well...we shall see...

She sure is one beautiful little Dove, active and bright.

I sure hope this can work out for her.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Daryl,


Thank you...

Aea, we are going to see a supposedly Good Avian vet @ 2:30 today.

This is one of the Cets my manymanymany phone calls and talking with people turned up for future determinations.

This was the soonest appointment I could get...so...we shall see what transpires.

In fact, I will call now and see if any chance of their being able to see me sooner.

Thanks Daryl..

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Best of luck at the vet's.
Hope this little one will be fine.

Reti


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Phil,
Good thoughts, good thoughts, good thoughts, all for the baby dovelet. Be sure to update us, I'm sure everyone is thinking of you.
Daryl


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, Daryl, 


Well...she is perky and interested in being fed and so on, in a climbing mood even. I just let her have a little Medicine Water is all...pending the Vet visit soon.

Such a little sweetie, such a nice outgoing disposition. I think she is really wishing this matter will get fixed also. I sure hope there is a fix for this.


I called to see if any earlier appointments might be a possibility, but not, so...had to run an errand, re-read my last posting and Eeeeesh, sorry about those typos!


Been thinking a great deal lately about Birds, baby Birds, rehabbers, the Law...science, intuition, all of it.

...a lot to think about...


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...

Thanks for your well wishes for little Dove Baby.

Bad news though...this 'acorn' lump was a pretty dense solid abcess, and in short, it had began seperating to where it was easy to remove with a little wiggle...along with the dead skin covering it.

Perforated esophagus, no Crop left that we could find...the liquids she had drank were merely pooling under her skin below the abcess.

So what I assumed was the volume of her Crop, below the lump, was just the area under her skin.

I have seen small Youngsters drink a lot or be fed a lot from their wild parents, so I just thought she was putting it away there on those breakfasts when really the thin nutrient 'soup' went nowhere but out her perforated trachea and down form there.

Thanks Brad for your noticing that the 10 mL seemed suspicious maybe, you were right to wonder about that.



All could have been stitched up nicely enough, but her esopgagus was so scarred that the Vet could not get enen a quite small rounded-end probe to pass through, and you could see this of course since the skin area was now gone with the lump it was attached to...and a water test done with the same thin hollow probe on a syringe showed only a next to nothing tiny bit would pass even under some light pressure...and with no Crop remaining intact, and an esophagus that would not even pass but the tiniest bit of water under light pressure, the future of her prospects seemed dim.

So, I just brought her home and we did Hand Nest for a while, and she was wanting to climb. Then she got into a decline and at one point I set her down for a little while because I was way tired and felt like I needed to lay down a little while, and she passed gently in some cool cloths while I was laying down near bye.

I sure liked her and enjoyed her active and nuzzleing ways, and how she hung out with grackle Baby there for those few days.

This abcess certainly did not come about over night, and I recon she was about three weeks old or so presently, so it must have been enlarging there for some time before I got her, and when I thought it was going away, and with my light massages, all that was really happenning was that the liquids she was drinking were making it mushy, where the perforations in her trachea or esophagus leaked everything out anyway, into the abcess and around it.

The tiny whole Seeds I fed her yesterday never got anywhere but just leaked out and stayed up high under the skin.

So...

A sad tale...and one that kinda took the startch out of me today.

I liked her a lot and wanted to see her grow up. She was a very outgoing and active little Dove and had preened all those little quills into quite lovely little feathers.

Well, we all tried, and she was a hell of a little trooper.

Thanks all for your ideas and mentions on this.

I had never seen anything like this before.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Hi Phil,

I'm never good with words but I just want to say I'm sorry to hear this.

The comfort is that I know that her last days were spent comfortably and with some one who really care.

Take care,
Suzanna


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Oh, Phil,
I'm sure I'm not the only one who is crying over your little dove's loss. I thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to know and love this little soul. Phil, she could have died, being something else's meal while still alive, and suffering so much more. You let her go when she decided it was her time, in a safe, loving home, safe,, knowing that "Daddy Phil" was right there beside her. If you haven't read the little write-up about "The Rainbow Bridge" go to www.browneggblueegg.com and scroll down through the left hand. I think that's Alan's website address. If not 
, I'll look it up tonight, after work. Can't do it now, I always cry over this little writing, even if no animals have died, and I'm already crying, and don't need to add to sadness.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry for the outcome of this baby, Phill..

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Phil,

Sorry to hear the news about Dovey. I'm sending good thoughts and best wishes your way to comfort you.

Treesa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

How very sad, Phil. You gave her such dedicated care. 

Did the vet have any idea as to what caused the abscess to form? 

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm very sorry about the little dove Phil. Thank you for giving it your all.

Terry


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

pigeonmama said:


> Oh, Phil,
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who is crying over your little dove's loss. I thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to know and love this little soul. Phil, she could have died, being something else's meal while still alive, and suffering so much more. You let her go when she decided it was her time, in a safe, loving home, safe,, knowing that "Daddy Phil" was right there beside her. If you haven't read the little write-up about "The Rainbow Bridge" go to www.browneggblueegg.com and scroll down through the left hand. I think that's Alan's website address. If not
> , I'll look it up tonight, after work. Can't do it now, I always cry over this little writing, even if no animals have died, and I'm already crying, and don't need to add to sadness.


Daryl,

The Rainbow Bridge story is so touching...Some of our members here are going have quite a crowd waiting to greet them someday! This link takes you right to the Stories on the site...just scroll down till you can click on Rainbow Bridge...thanks for providing it, Daryl.

http://www.browneggblueegg.com/Story.html

Phil,

I'm so sorry about the little dove...such a sad outcome.

Linda


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Dear Phil, I am typing this with tears in my eyes over your loss. You always seem to care so much for your little guys and you know you did everything you could to help this little dove. Several years ago, we got in a pigeon with a wound to its crop, took it to the vet and lo and behold it was an actual acorn embedded in its crop. Luckily, the vet operated and sewed the crop up and we were able to release this little bird. The vet said that the acorn actually helped to cover the hole that had been made in the crop and probably saved the little pigeons life. 

God bless.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Phil,
So sorry for your loss! What a difficult story to tell. Thank you for being willing to share this information for future reference.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ohhhhhhh...boy...(deep breath)...



Thank you all for your kind feelings and words...means a lot to me.

This was too tender for me to go near there for awhile...so now I am at it and see all your well wishes.


I lose Birds sometimes, lost one this evening, young adult Dove, a way cool gal brought over, and in ten minutes, the poor thing was no more, it was so far gone already, eyes rolled back, head pulled back, Beak breathing...damn, I never had a chance to do anything for it but warm, and a little soothing hand nest, then had to set them down for their throes going on so as not to hurt them in that struggle. A sorry end and no time for remediations even.

Little Dove Baby, was so active, happy in her way, had preened all those quills, hung out with Grackle Baby and generally charmed the socks off of me.

I spent a lot of time with her variously, and fed her many many little meals of various 'Soups'...

Anyway, loosing her like that got to me. 

When you spend a lot of time with them, even if just four or five days, see their spirit for Life and their wanting so much to live...how they want you to help them, feed them, do hand nest with them, which she liked to do all the time, even if she was plenty warm enough already...she'd run over and climb right into my hand and settle in there nice as pie...and do that last little wiggle that gets all those lower feathers lined up just 'so'...and sit there with such polite and delicate poise and head held high looking straight ahead...

I had to do a lot of typeing with one hand, as well as other things around here, her in the other hand, while I tried to see if I could make a sandwhich, or get that mayonaise lid off the jar...Lol...with the other. She was pretty small.

So, her having no way to live, and then dieing anyway, kinda nailed me.




This Vet is/was so totally humane, solid, patient, genuinely Human, I could not have hoped for better. 

Spent a half hour I imagine, looking hard for the third or fourth time to find something for a Crop, and no luck...we'd talk a llittle, then him, or me would say, "...lets look again, there's GOT to be "something" there! - tried as many times in different ways to see if anything would pass the scarring of the esophagus, figuring, even with no Crop, if she could at least Eat and have the food get on down to her stomach...we'd try that, not ideal but what the hell, she'd manage, just lots of small meals is all - and, really, it was scarred so close to shut he could not get that little ( Blike 2 mm diameter egg shaped ) round end probe to pass with even a really stretching push...or even get but the tiniest hint of Water to go through, going through the probe's hollow shaft, so...

He was very careing, open and real, perceptive, present...I could go on and on.

He sure gave it his best, and patiently...exhausted all possibilities of what could be done. He really wanted to come up with something, and there was nothing to come up with.

A way undersize, young 3 week or so old Dove with no Crop and a scarred shut esophagus, would not last long no matter how often I fed it by any method. She was seriously dehydrated in spite of all the liguids she had drank, which of course never went anywhere but to under her skin, and if we'd tried just fixing what there was, I was worried if she did drink, the liquid would really have no where to go at all but to back up and get into her airways.



This is a great Vet...unique in my experience for the mood and reality of his patience and palpable careing.

AND a 'Bird Man'...Bird Surgeon...bone pinner...on and on.

I can count on him for things if I need them.

So, one thing with all this, little Dove Baby led me to the Vet I have been looking for all these years.

A seriously important gesture for those Birds who come after her, that might need things outside of what simple stuff I can do.

So, that's the tale...

And I will remember her for that, as well as for all the rest.


Love,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

Well you did your best and that is all any of us could ever attempt. We are all here together- struggling to help, learn and understand various things about bird health, pigeons specifically.

Glad you have finally found a trustworthy and kind hearted vet, it's important. Even though we all have a great deal of knowledge and share all kinds of information, a qualified/certified vet is our best recourse for proper treatment.


Good luck to you and all the ones that cross your path


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

My condolances to you PHIL. You went above and beyond the call of duty to try and help this baby dove. I am sure the baby dove sensed this. We all thank you for your efforts.


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