# Distended crop need help ASAP!!!



## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Hand feeding pigeon appx. 5 weeks old. Last night noticed crop was disended. Tryed putting crop bra over night. Worked somewhat. Crop seemed to shrink. Have been feeding warm water only. Bird seems lethargic. Please Help!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FricknFrack,



What have the poope been like?

Color, consistancy, number in 24 hours?


And, what have you been feeding it ( details, what and how, sewrved at what temp, warmed how, and ingredients and so on)

If the youngster is dehydrated, tepid rehydration solutions and plenty of them should aid...

Is he interested in drinking?


If this is a Static Crop from Candida or Yeats, then it is more than merely the Crop shutting down...and ACV-Water made to about Two and a HAlf Tablespoons of ACV to the Gallon of Water may get things straightened out, letting him fast for two or three days till the Crop is empty again and his systems is allowed to clear out...or 'Nystatin' or it's kin...or possibly Baking Soda, for which others will have to provide details of how much and how to use, since I have not tried it myself.


Let us know?


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

HI FricknFrack! Welcome to our forum!  

I know that members usually suggest waiting until the crop empties before feeding again. 

*Also, how MUCH are you feeding at a time and HOW often? How are the poops? What do they look like? Can you post a picture?*

More knowledgeable members will be along to comment and make suggestions.

Shi & Mr. Squeaks


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi F'nF and welcome to PT. What are you feeding this five week old and 
how frequently? When did you first notice a difference in demeanor? Was it
last night w/the distended crop?

Could you open the beak and look inside to see if there are any unusual
growths or colorations, also please put your nose somewhat close and 
smell as well. The inside of the mouth should be pink and clear and no
distinctive odors. Likewise, there really shouldn't be any distinctive 
odors to the droppings as well.

Whereabouts are you located and is there anyone locally that you know
that also raises pigeons?

fp


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Thank you very much. Hope someone can help. We love these little critters. Frick started acting lethargic yesterday early. He has been lying on his front side and his crop is huge. I made a crop bra for him yesterday. He's had it on for about 15 hours now. I have fed him approximately 4-6 teaspoons of Exact Baby food mixture mixed at 1 to 1-1/2 ratio of food to warm water for at least the last 3-4 days. Frick is about 5 weeks old and pretty good size I'd say. We really don't want to lose him. He looks better than he did yesterday, but I haven't fed him anything except for about a half teaspoon of warm water 3-4 times since yesterday. I took the crop bra off for several hours today, but put it back on when it looked like things weren't improving. He is sitting in one spot in his cage and he won't move unless handled. He has been standing from time to time, but not moving around a lot. He pooped up a storm last night and quite a bit the last several hours. I will get pictures ready for the next post.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Have you looked inside the mouth yet for any unusual growths or colorations?
Also, have you checked for sour odor from the mouth or poops?


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Pics of Frick and poops*

















Here is a picture of Frick with his crop bra on and his poops from overnight. If it needs to be bigger I can resize the pics. Thanks for your help!


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Charis said:


> Have you looked inside the mouth yet for any unusual growths or colorations?
> Also, have you checked for sour odor from the mouth or poops?


No unusual growths or colorations. Looks pink and doesn't have any odor. Poop does not smell funny either.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Will you please answere the question about looking in the mouth?
Has the crop gone down now?
Is the bird eating at all on its own yet?
The pictures are too small for my eyes. Please resize.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi FricknFrack,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kaytee Exact hand feeding formula for baby birds. I have been running hot tap water and mixing with the Kaytee. I wait about a minute or two for the formula to cool down and then use a syringe to feed with. I have been feeding fast and I have mixed a little seed in with the formula to try and get them acclimated to a more solid diet. Was this the wrong thing to do? How often should I give him water? At what temp should the water be? I don't have anything that you suggest except for the baking soda. Is there anyone who can suggest mixing directions for us?


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Charis said:


> Will you please answere the question about looking in the mouth?
> Has the crop gone down now?
> Is the bird eating at all on its own yet?
> The pictures are too small for my eyes. Please resize.


Mouth looks fine. No discoloration or growths. Crop has gone down since this morning. Frick never ate on his own, only when I fed him. He is not acting hungry though. Here are the pics a little bigger.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi F'nF, 

Where abouts are you located?? As a general rule w/this bird, has the
crop been regularly emptying? If it's not emptying now, you can just tube
ACV water, or human baby applesauce to change the ph balance in the crop.
ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar, raw is the best but pasterized would do. These
are things that you can get at a supermarket. You'll have to keep a close
eye, and feel the crop to know whether or not to re-introduce food again.
Hopefully if you tube ACV water the crop will begin to empty again.

fp


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi F'nF,
> 
> Where abouts are you located?? As a general rule w/this bird, has the
> crop been regularly emptying? If it's not emptying now, you can just tube
> ...


I have distilled white vinegar and regular Musselman's Applesauce. Will either of these work? We are located in a very small rural town in Central Kentucky. I don't know if the crop has been emptying completely. I feed about once every 8 hours now as a rule. It seems like they are hungry at that time.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi F'nF,
> 
> Where abouts are you located?? As a general rule w/this bird, has the
> crop been regularly emptying? If it's not emptying now, you can just tube
> ...


I resized the pictures, but I don't see them on the post. When I submit reply, then do I have to do something else for my post to show up?


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Thanks to all!*

Just wanted to say thank you to all who came to our rescue!  I gave Frack 1 1/2 tsp.applesause with warm water mix and he gobbled it right down! Poor little feller was just famished, but still didn't feel good. He is looking alot better than he did earlier. He's standing and giving me the "look"! His crop doesn't look so puffy either.It just looks fuller at the bottom not at the top like as before. He's resting and so are we, so thanks again and we will keep an eye on him through the night.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might try doing a search on "aerophagia", which is a deal where the nestling can try to suck food faster than it's being given and end up swallowing a bunch of air.

Pidgey


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Thanks for your help!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That a really cute Pigeon you have and I'm glad he's doing better.
Thank you for resizing the pictures. It really helped.
It's time that bird starts eating on his own. Might be a good idea to have food and water in front of him all the time. You can play with the food to get his interest. Once they start drinking on their own, the eating soon follows. Don't stop hand feeding until you know for sure he's eating on his own.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HI FnF,



It's kind of hard to really get a feel for the situation you are confronting...

But, nothing you have said would rule out something as simple as maybe you were feeding him faster than his system could process it, and, probably, not allowing him enough water for his system to process it well.

Warm Tap Water in theory contains various warmth-loving Anaerobic Bacteria which live in the Pipes between the Hot Water Heater and the Faucets, and these are almost certainly not going to be good for any Bird.


Hence, it is always best to use COLD Tap Water to make the formula, and even then, having let the Tap run for a few minutes before useing any of the Cold Water.

Add the Water to the powder, in a Teacup or something...and cover it and let it sit an hour or so in the fridge without doing anything else, do nolt stirr, do not fuss with it in any way, just add enough Water to cover the powder with a little to spare, and THEN, after it has sat an hour refrigerated and covered, THEN warm "that" in a Pan of Hot Water, while stirring, and adding however much additional Water is needed for the formula to be about like melted Ice Cream on a hot day in consistancy.

You want the formula to be about one's own Body Temperature.


And, to offer Drinks of 'Tepid' Water one has warmed to be so, several times in-between food meals. If it is not tepid, virtaully no young PIgeon will drink it.


You are useing a 'tube' which is large enough to pass whole Seeds????!!!!


What kind of tube is this?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might go read this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=201905

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't know if the link and info therein would apply from reading this description in the quote from Avian Medicinerinciples and Applications;

"Slowly delivering food will contribute to aerophagia because the chick attempts to gulp the feeding formula faster than the food is provided."

Going back to the beginning of this thread, I believe F'nF said :

"I have been running hot tap water and mixing with the Kaytee. I wait about a minute or two for the formula to cool down and then use a syringe to feed with. *I have been feeding fast* and I have mixed a little seed in with the formula to try and get them acclimated to a more solid diet."

From the above description, though, it does seem that the formula was not
getting re-tempered w/additional water. I really don't think it was using hot
tap water that did it for F'nF as I've never, knock on wood, had it happen to
me and I do use hot top water that has had a chance to cool to wrist temperature.

F'nF, I'm glad to hear that your baby is back on track and that, for now,
things are getting back to 'baby normal'. Don't know if I left my green light
on last p.m., but I wasn't on line when you were looking for an answer from
me, sorry about that, but looks as though things went well. Hopefully, over the next couple of weeks your baby will successfully make the transition from tubing to self-feeding. If you augment the food intake w/tubing, just make sure not to fill the bird up in the a.m., or the bird will not have a desire to self feed regardless. You'll need to taper off while getting the youngster interested in the seeds. Good luck!

fp


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Follow up on Frick !?!*

Howdy! Well, he seems a little better this morning. Not as full, more alert, but the strangest thing, he is now standing up so straight that I'm afraid that he is going to topple over backward? What's up with that? Is he just letting everything settle downward? He's still looking a little dazed and confused. But he is standing. If that is a good thing. Exactly when should we start giving them seed? Frack has already started "pecking" and we have let her play around with some of the Universal diet [ Hartz]for small birds. What do we need to get? Also how much of the formula [Kaytee} should we be giving them at this point? And at what intervals? We appreciate all the help, as you can tell we are newbie's to the feathered world and care so much for the babies. We just need guidence!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FnF,


That is what some call the 'Penguin Pose' which is associated with Candida infections of the Crop...

Usually resulting from K-T being used plain and force fed, and being prepared wrongly as well, and being too thick and not passing through the Crop soon enough since it makes a semi-dehydrated 'slug' in the Crop for being insufficiently mixed and hydrated in the first place...and then feremeting in the Crop, spoiling in effect, and spreading Yeats and other Bacteria and fermentation Organisms to the interior tissues of the Crop, which then become infected, and their whole digestive system becomes infected and will shut down.


You have best consider to either begin a regimen of ACV-Water, or, Nystatin or it's kin...or possibly Baking Soda, and to permit the Bird to fast for a couple days...and allow for whatever is still in the Crop to clear out and be pooped out.




Phil
l v


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

At this point we have been giving him tepid water only and he has pooped ALOT. Very watery poop. Is that the idea? Is fasting the best idea? With water only? We don't want to lose him!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What about the crop, is it empty?
Go get some applesauce for human babes and feed that.
Buy a pigeon feed at a feed store or a dove mix at a pet store. You need to buy it now so you have it available.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Crop looks fairly empty. He's standing there, not upright as he was earlier. But still looking dazed. The other bird has started preening on him. Is that normal?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Has the crop shrunk back to normal size?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If the bird was in my care, I would feed the baby applesauce now. I would feed about 10cc at at time. It probably will go through very quickly and thats ok. You will just be feeding more often. Don't add food until what you feed has moved completely through.
I also suspect this baby may have canker. I don't think I've ever met a feral Pigeon that doesn't have canker. It's easily treated.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Charis said:


> If the bird was in my care, I would feed the baby applesauce now. I would feed about 10cc at at time. It probably will go through very quickly and thats ok. You will just be feeding more often. Don't add food until what you feed has moved completely through.
> I also suspect this baby may have canker. I don't think I've ever met a feral Pigeon that doesn't have canker. It's easily treated.


 Quick question, how often does he need to eat the appelsauce? Thanks!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AS soon as his crop empties you will feed again. It could move through in 1 hour or it could be 3 hours. We'll have to wait and see.
Is the crop normal now?
Grooming by other pigeons is ok.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

His crop is a little puffy, but not near as bad as it was. We're just keeping an eye on him for now. Thanks again.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Adding some applesauce, baby applesauce, will help change the ph balance. So, do give some. Try 5 cc's. Also gently massage the crop. That should help as well. Baby applesauce doesn't have sugar and the pigeon shouldn't have sugar.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

A picture without the bra would be helpful. A picture large enough for my old eyes to see the details would be appreciate.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

JMO, but I would totally remove the "bra". To me it could be too confining for his crop.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Maggie is right. They usually need the bra for a short amount of time. Most often no more than a day, in my experience.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Charis said:


> A picture without the bra would be helpful. A picture large enough for my old eyes to see the details would be appreciate.


Here is a picture of Frick just now.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Frick looks good. I would feed baby applesauce.
Did you pick up pigeon or dove feed?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

FricknFrack said:


> At this point we have been giving him tepid water only and he has pooped ALOT. Very watery poop. Is that the idea? Is fasting the best idea? With water only? We don't want to lose him!



Hi FnF,



Fasting for a couple days while addressing the almost certain Candida issue of his Crop...would be what I would likely do.


If food IS passing reliably, and the Crop empties soon, then I would absolutely still address the highly probable Candida issue while feeding light WATERY meals...

I would never be feeding straight 'K-T' in the first place, and absolutely never by your methods of mixing, since doing so WILL relliably injur them in just this way you now are dealing with.

The formula - especially when made of just 'K-T' or similar, opr regardless of what one makes it from, should never have been any 'thicker' than melted Ice Cream on a VERY Hot day, in the first place.

Augmented WITH several drinks of ( "tepid" ) Water being offered between meals...unless one wishes to create these kinds of problems.


And, all the while, if feeding "K-T" or similar, to be keeping a careful eye on the Crop all through, to watch out for semi-dessicated thick 'slugs' or wads of 'formula' remaining in their Crops ( and how many can even tell when these are 'there'?) which will fester and spoil and ferment in there or adhere to the inside lining of the Crop like a thick 'glue' and make serious problems, infections, Candida, or variously kill them.


Force fed Baby Birds have no choice about what we force into them.

Baby or youngster Birds who are allowed or respected to eat volitionally will not eat the kinds of stuff people routinly force into them, and, for good reason.


Good luck...

Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi FnF,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can be so true, Phil.
The applesauce really helps with yeast and fermentation issues as long as it is the baby applesauce with no sugar added.
The applesauce trick I learned from my Avian Veterinarian friend years ago.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Charis said:


> Frick looks good. I would feed baby applesauce.
> Did you pick up pigeon or dove feed?


I just finished with about 7 cc's of baby applesauce with no sugar. Had to run out to the store to get it. I also got ACV. Should I alternate or just use the applesauce for now? Approximately how long should I let him go between feeding him the applesauce? I'm a little worried about him now. He is doing the penguin stance and can hardly keep his eyes open. I have been very very gently messaging his crop for the last 15 minutes. I can feel lumps like the size of peanuts. Just a couple of them and I've tried to message them down ever so lightly. He just pooped a whole lot of clear liquid and very little solid. It's scaring me when I have to stimulate him to keep his eyes open. Any more suggestion would definitely be appreciated. I want this bird to live!!!


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

FricknFrack said:


> I just finished with about 7 cc's of baby applesauce with no sugar. Had to run out to the store to get it. I also got ACV. Should I alternate or just use the applesauce for now? Approximately how long should I let him go between feeding him the applesauce? I'm a little worried about him now. He is doing the penguin stance and can hardly keep his eyes open. I have been very very gently messaging his crop for the last 15 minutes. I can feel lumps like the size of peanuts. Just a couple of them and I've tried to message them down ever so lightly. He just pooped a whole lot of clear liquid and very little solid. It's scaring me when I have to stimulate him to keep his eyes open. Any more suggestion would definitely be appreciated. I want this bird to live!!!


I did not find any pigeon or dove food, only parakeet and small bird food. I don't think I'll be giving him anything else except for applesauce until he's better. Is this correct?


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Frick just pooped again. This time it was all clear liquid. Shouldn't I be expecting some solids? I'm trying to remain calm, but this bird has been by my side for the last 5 weeks every few hours.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You're giving him a lot of fluids and nothing really solid. As such, you're likely to get a lot of fluid out of him and very little solids. What you might see is some dark green bile in a smudge a little later on but that's not "solids" per se.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

F'nF, do you currently have any medications on hand, or a feed store that
you can get meds from or an aquarium supply house to get meds from,
or someone local that you know in a pigeon club or who raises pigeons
from whom you would be able to get some medications from?


Regarding "Penguin Posture", I don't believe it's an official term, rather a 
coined one. Regardless, when I think of the specifics of that posture,
it's one of extreme discomfort and crosses any specific "illness boundaries".
A baby's crop can have several issues cause it to go south, primary ones
being Yeast, Trichomonas (Protozoal), and Bacterial. We know that your
baby's crop is emptying, but we don't even have a full twenty four hours 
of watching the mechanics of how it is emptying. Because the bird is
continuing to show discomfort, not necessarily of crop distension, but
discomfort non the less, I would not begin the process of switching
to seeds right now. I would switch off between the applesause and
formula remembering that formula baby food does thicken after mixing
for the first time, and needs to be re-tempered (mixed a second time
after the initial mixing for proper consistency). Again, it is the actual viewing and feeling of the crop that will determine whether or not to feed the 
baby again or wait a bit longer.

Personally, I would be concerned about the lumps that you are feeling. 
Are they lumps of formula or lumps of Canker? We don't know for certain
one way or another, do we? We do know however that the crop is now
emptying so it becomes suspicious that you are feeling lumps in there
in conjunction w/an exagerated stance of discomfort and now clear fluids.
I can Express mail you meds if you are unable to procure locally that
will cover whatever scenario your baby is now experiencing. You
would have to pm your info to me. I can pack it up for you tonight
and have it in the mail tomorrow before noon.

fp


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> F'nF, do you currently have any medications on hand, or a feed store that
> you can get meds from or an aquarium supply house to get meds from,
> or someone local that you know in a pigeon club or who raises pigeons
> from whom you would be able to get some medications from?
> ...


Penguin Posture is continuing. Poor Frick looks to be losing the battle, but I'm not giving up on him. When I message his chest it appears as though I'm hurting him and he stands up even straighter, almost to the point of falling backwards. He has not moved from the position in his cage that I put him in about an hour ago after I fed him applesauce again. I heard him trying to poop, but it sounded like air came out and no poop. I can see a spot on his neck towards his throat that is going in and out. Seems like an air pocket. It feels as though it moves slightly when I touch it, but it seems to be painful, so I've stoped touching it. He's not been coughing at all since the last post, but he's still obviously in severe discomfort.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Follow up on Frick !?!*

Thursday 9:00 AM - Frick is still penguin posed, but moving around a bit more. Not much, but more than yesterday. I just fed him about 10cc of applesauce. Lots of poop this morning as well. Mostly wet, but some with solids. HE IS MAKING A NOISE LIKE A QUICK CLEARING OF THE NOSE OR THROAT ABOUT EVERY 10-15 SECONDS. WHAT IS THIS? It started yesterday after giving him a taste of apple cider vinegar. He did not like it at all and shook it all out all over the place. Last night and now he continues to make this sound. His head bobs quickly and very slightly when he makes this noise, but it's making me concerned because it's not normal for me to hear that from him. It sounds like a very quick exhale with a bit of a slight crackling sound like if someone had the flu and was coughing, but only once every 10 seconds or so. PLEASE ADVISE!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I sent you a private message.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

FricknFrack said:


> Thursday 9:00 AM - Frick is still penguin posed, but moving around a bit more. Not much, but more than yesterday. I just fed him about 10cc of applesauce. Lots of poop this morning as well. Mostly wet, but some with solids. HE IS MAKING A NOISE LIKE A QUICK CLEARING OF THE NOSE OR THROAT ABOUT EVERY 10-15 SECONDS. WHAT IS THIS? It started yesterday after giving him a taste of apple cider vinegar. He did not like it at all and shook it all out all over the place. Last night and now he continues to make this sound. His head bobs quickly and very slightly when he makes this noise, but it's making me concerned because it's not normal for me to hear that from him. It sounds like a very quick exhale with a bit of a slight crackling sound like if someone had the flu and was coughing, but only once every 10 seconds or so. PLEASE ADVISE!




Hi FnF, 


Lets see if we can work on getting things clear with this...I know there is a lot sometimes to organize or keep track of or to be making decisions about...


Will you explain please, what you mean "giving him a taste of the Vinegar"?


And is this Bird drinking on his own when Water is offered?

Or are you getting it into him some other way?


If some other way, then how?


Were you trying to give him straight Vinegar?



From what you have described, your youngster seems to me to fit the symptoms for Candida or possibly some Yeast infections, in his Crop and possibly down from there somewhat.


For which, my own practice or regimen is to have ALL their fluid intake be the "ACV-Water", which in it's mildest Therapeutic proportions, which I would elect for this, would be made by adding Three Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of cool plain Water.


This then would be used for their drinking Water, as the Bird is allowed to fast for couple days.

If the Bird is not drinking on their own, one then gently tubes the ACV-Water directly into their Crop.


Most young Pigeons will not drink or eat unless the Water or liquefied formula is about the same temperature as it would have been from their parent's Crops, being say about 100 degrees or so Fahrenheit.


If his Crop is clearing, then of course that is very good.


If dealing with suspected Candida or Yeast infections in their Crop, and if one is to feed them lightly and not have them fast, then "thin" Watery formula made BY using the ACV-Water to mix the 'powder' K-T or other with, is how one would do it...while also offering ACV-Water drinks in-between meals, or tubing it into their Crop if need be.


Apple Sauce sounds wonderful to me in every way, and a nice idea, but we can not expect it to possess the same amount of necessary Acidity as the ACV-Water will, for being truly Therapeutic in occasions of wishing to treat and eliminate a developed and serious Candida infection....even if it may head one off before such develops.

"Nystatin" ( or it's kin, such as "Medistat" or others) is the usual clinical recourse...but every instance I have had here responded very well with the ACV-Water.


You really need to review and in fact start over with your entire feeding practices, if you wish to avoid causing problems like this again.

I know the wider habits of most practioners here and elsewhere are perfunctory and careless and they more or less get away with it and have no interest to learn anything or to change.

None the less, it is possible to care enough about the Bird for his or her sake, and thus to learn to do somehting well and with intentional care nd practices, and to learn to feed in every detail, for the Bird's sake, rather then electing the fastest most crude and imposing means of getting it done by force, for one's own sake of saving a little time or effort.



Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Phil,
They have found an Avian vet and they will let us know.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Frick on the Mend*

Hello All,
Frick is being medicated with Nystatin and Metronidazole. He is not penguin posing any longer. His lump is still there in his crop, although he is eating and drinking and not showing signs of discomfort at this time like he was. I will post again each day to update on Frack's condition. Thank you all so much and we will be in touch. You are the best and most caring group of people that we've ever come into contact with online. Thank you for all of your support!!! We are proud to be members of your group!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's really good news. Thank you for letting us know. Looking forward to updates regarding the health of Frick restored.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Glad to hear that Frick is doing better and showing obvious improvement....Updates do keep us happy here  

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Wonderful news and thank you for the update. Hope things continue to improve.


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Frick on the Mend*

Frick seems to be doing better in spirit. He still has the lump in his crop. It is one large lump on his right side and it is a bit hard, but with the meds, it should go down. I'm just so relieved that we have friends like you all who care enough to help. Thanks and I will keep posting daily as to Fricks condition...


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

F&F,

Just now saw this thread. Hope little five-week-old *Frick* keeps doing better. 

We have a 4&1/2 week old squeaker, called "*Wie-Osk*" rhymes with "kiosk"), (from father *Wieteke* and mother *Osk-gurr*), hatched July 26th or 27th, who still chases his father Wieteke around for food when we bring the father to the atelier for nest-sitting duty and feeding duty. The father does an initial feeding, and for the past few days, after the first (and last) feeding of the day, avoids the baby. It's funny to see Dad running from squeaker. Mother pigeon ignores baby. She laid eggs last week, and is concerned only with them.

I have observed that Wie-Osk can now feed himself. He doesn't successfully pick up the larger stuff such as corn kernels or dried peas or dried roasted soybeans, much less swallow them. He can lift off the floor with his wings a bit. He stands fairly high, but shows no signs of discomfort. I check his mouth every so often for anything unsual, since his sibling and nest mate died after a few days of hatching. Sibling weighed 14 grams to his 28 grams (one ounce) at the time of death. 

His father Wieteke has survived paratyphoid (salmonellosis) as a squeaker (my guess at a diagnosis), coccidiosis (vet's diagnosis), PMV (head turned upside down and crazy erratic flying while raising his first offspring), and I think air sac mites. He lives outdoors on the streets, and may have passed something on to his youngster. His very first pair of offspring by his first mate *Mamieke*, a feral female, also died, in May of last year. He successfully raised two more pairs of chicks to adulthood last year. 

I keep Spartrix/carnidazole (10 mg tablets) on hand for ready dispensing against canker now, along with some other meds.

Hope Frick survives and thrives, and lives to do many more healthy poops.

Larry


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

Larry_Cologne said:


> F&F,
> 
> Just now saw this thread. Hope little five-week-old *Frick* keeps doing better.
> 
> ...


Thank You Larry. Quite an interesting Story and well put. Thanks again and I will keep you all posted on Fricks recovery...


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Follow up on Frick*

Frick did better today. His canker is still large, but it doesn't seem to be affecting his appetite. He closes his eyes almost shut and sometimes shut just after he's been fed. It appears as though he is in pain, but it is getting better every day.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am glad he is getting better and pray for a full recovery.
Thanks for the update.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FnF, 


Good luck..!


Canker, and Candida both, I am certain are sometiems very painful.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I doubt this bird has yeast, there is a bad case of canker going on, though.

fp


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Frick's Condition*

Hello All...Frick is still with us. He is being treated for his illness now and he's got his appetite back now. His throat has some little greenish yellow colored nodules in it. I haven't seem them before. I felt them the last time I crop fed him. They just felt like a small bit of resistance. I knew I was in the right canal. Is this part of the Canker? How long before it goes down and/or softens up? Thanks for your help again!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

F'nF, the greenish that you describe doesn't ring true for Canker or Yeast....
the bird is currently on Metronidazole and Nystatin, correct?

Also, in relation to when you first began dosing w/Metronidazole, does the 
growth in the throat seem smaller to view and to the touch?

fp


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> F'nF, the greenish that you describe doesn't ring true for Canker or Yeast....
> the bird is currently on Metronidazole and Nystatin, correct?
> 
> Also, in relation to when you first began dosing w/Metronidazole, does the
> ...


Correct on the Medications. The growth in Frick's throat is still pretty good size (about like a small walnut). What I have noticed is that the growth seems to be harder than it was before. Even with Applesauce everyday mixed with warm water and alternating other feedings with very watered down exact, Frick's growth seems to be tighter and harder to the touch. It's like Frick stopped growing. His sister, Frack, has all of her feathers out and preened. She looks like a beautiful young pigeon. She is flying on her own now (just in the past few days). Frick, on the other hand, is not flying yet. His feathers have not all been preened, and you can still see his neck skin when he leans forwards. He just looks like a sick bird. Alas, he is holding on, so we must be doing the correct thing for him (only with your help). Thank You!!!


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

FricknFrack said:


> Correct on the Medications. The growth in Frick's throat is still pretty good size (about like a small walnut). What I have noticed is that the growth seems to be harder than it was before. Even with Applesauce everyday mixed with warm water and alternating other feedings with very watered down exact, Frick's growth seems to be tighter and harder to the touch. It's like Frick stopped growing. His sister, Frack, has all of her feathers out and preened. She looks like a beautiful young pigeon. She is flying on her own now (just in the past few days). Frick, on the other hand, is not flying yet. His feathers have not all been preened, and you can still see his neck skin when he leans forwards. He just looks like a sick bird. Alas, he is holding on, so we must be doing the correct thing for him (only with your help). Thank You!!!


Also, Frick is eating some seed now. They have both been eating seed on their own now for a couple of days. I've been wondering when to try weening them off of the Exact formula. Is now the time to do it?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FnF,


Would you review the medicines, doses-per-day, and how long now, which Frick has been having?


Also, was this Bird seen by any Avian Vets?


This does sound like an Abcess, and certainly not Canker in the usual sense, which may or may not have been attended by, or been itself an accumulation of, 'Canker'.


Just make sure he is well fed and well hydrated, and do not worry for now about any weaning...so, if he is pecking on his own, thats great! But if he is not doing so enough, or regardless, may as well keep on for now with the extra nutrition...


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'd feed w/high grade puppy/kitty kibble soaked in medicated water and 
leave the pigeon mix in the cage w/the bird so that they can play with it.
If this bird is behind in development, trying to transition right now will only
exaserbate the situation. Birds like this that I get in will be hand fed w/fresh
seed, water daily for a range or 1.5-2.5 months to ensure recovery is fully
established. They will be slow growers and need support yet need the seed
as well to introduce them to the adult experience over time.

When we spoke initially, you weren't dosing the bird at the correct amount
for Nystatin or Metronidazole, so I don't know what if any impact this may
have had. What you are describing sounds a little on the 'carpety' side, almost
what I might think of from fungal infection.....you are saying you can see when
you look down the throat....a series of greenish lumps throughout the crop 
region? Or through the skin in the neck you are seeing this?

It takes time for canker to recede, it doesn't happen over night or within
the first few days of meds. On larger canker masses it could take a week
of time for it to 'melt/dissolve' and then the tissue that was damaged would
take an additional 2-3 weeks to heal to the point that there was no further
risk of invasive organisms in that area.

Is it possible for you to post a picture??

Thanks,

fp


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## FricknFrack (Aug 21, 2007)

*Frick's Condition*

The little tiny bumps all stuck together are in his throat. I can not get a picture that is even remotely in focus. It's not an easy task taking a picture inside a pigeons mouth. LOL... From the front of Frick's crop, I can see the canker. It looks exactly as you said, a little bumpy, hard and sort of tinted in color. Hoping and praying that the Metronidazole works. I am so worried about the little guy, I think that I'm expecting results overnight. Okay, I'll relax and follow the instructions that I have been shown...


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