# How fast is fast?



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I was curious to know how fast is fast when it comes to clocking your birds from training tosses. I've have recently tossed my birds a distance of 5 miles for the past 2 weekends and have clocked my best bird out the 3 I toss arriving 10 minutes after being tossed. The other 2 arrive maybe 10-15 minutes later. Is this fast or is this horribly slow. What is considered fast for a 5-10 miles training toss?

Henry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*To Close To Home*

*Hi Henry, You realy need to have the birds out much further then 5 miles for one thing the birds once in the air could see the loft so they knew where they were and one did not want to fly so he went stright home the other two wanted to fly for a little while and took a bit longer, your 5 mile test means nothing* ..GEORGE


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Henry do not worry about speed in the early stages, get them exercised and used to trapping into the loft, no matter how long it takes them to get home. On most short tosses, unless, they are WAY to hungry they will wander a bit, THAT is a good thing, they are learning their landmarks, and your lofts location compared to them. When they get older they will get faster, and be there no matter how fast you drive home! LOL! Dave P.S. just read Georges good point, i never worried at all about speed till at least 50 mile tosses.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

george simon said:


> *Hi Henry, You realy need to have the birds out much further then 5 miles for one thing the birds once in the air could see the loft so they knew where they were and one did not want to fly so he went stright home the other two wanted to fly for a little while and took a bit longer, your 5 mile test means nothing* ..GEORGE


Ahhh...got it George! That makes total sense. Once in the air 5 miles isn't really to hard for them to find out where home is. So your saying that knowing where home is right away can distract them from going straight for the loft. That's can be the reason the other 2 were a little a little late getting back. What distance would you suggest taking them to get a fair read on how fast they really are at getting back to the loft?


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> Henry do not worry about speed in the early stages, get them exercised and used to trapping into the loft, no matter how long it takes them to get home. On most short tosses, unless, they are WAY to hungry they will wander a bit, THAT is a good thing, they are learning their landmarks, and your lofts location compared to them. When they get older they will get faster, and be there no matter how fast you drive home! LOL! Dave P.S. just read Georges good point, i never worried at all about speed till at least 50 mile tosses.


Dave, these birds are actually rehomed birds. I've had them trap trained for a good 2 months now. They've been loft flown many times and I decided to start tossing them for distance. Like I stated I've tossed them out to 5 miles for the past 2 weekends and they have had no problems getting back home. I will try them out at 10 miles for the next toss and add 10 miles to each toss until I hit the 50 mile toss. This will give me a good idea as to what these birds of made of.

How long does it take a good bird to get home from 50 miles out?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Henry you need to loft fly your birds and when they leave the area of your loft they are routing,they will be out of sight for 15 or 20 minuts or longer when they are doing this FOR A WEEK OR TWO then I would start road training them some start road traning with a two mile toss others go longer that is up to you, you know your birds and should deside how you want to go.* ..GEORGE


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

george simon said:


> *Henry you need to loft fly your birds and when they leave the area of your loft they are routing,they will be out of sight for 15 or 20 minuts or longer when they are doing this FOR A WEEK OR TWO then I would start road training them some start road traning with a two mile toss others go longer that is up to you, you know your birds and should deside how you want to go.* ..GEORGE


Hey George, These birds have been loft flown for a good 4 weeks that's why I decided to start them on road trainning. I've been very patient with them and have resettled and trap trained them pretty good. I have no doubt that they will come home if they could, that's why I started road trainning them to see how good their homing abilities are. 5 miles is a piece of cake to them. They make it home just fine. It's just how fast they make it home was what I was initially concerned about but you and dave siad not to worry about time until I've got them tossing from 50 miles out and that's what I'm aiming to do. I just hope that they have enough homing ability to make it home at that distance. Then we clock for time!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Hey George, These birds have been loft flown for a good 4 weeks that's why I decided to start them on road trainning. I've been very patient with them and have resettled and trap trained them pretty good. I have no doubt that they will come home if they could, that's why I started road trainning them to see how good their homing abilities are. 5 miles is a piece of cake to them. They make it home just fine. It's just how fast they make it home was what I was initially concerned about but you and dave siad not to worry about time until I've got them tossing from 50 miles out and that's what I'm aiming to do. I just hope that they have enough homing ability to make it home at that distance. Then we clock for time!


Don't want to "bust your bubble", but they just MIGHT have enough "homing" ability to GO HOME........their REAL home, not yours. If you toss them one day and never see them again, that doesn't mean they have no homing ability. It just might mean the their TRUE homing ability kicked in and that's where they went. 
We go round and round about this "re-homing" thing all the time around here. I've never said it can't be done and in fact, amazingly enough to me, quite a few here have done just that.
Depending on who you ask, some will say that if you can re-home a bird, you've got a really smart bird on your hands.
Other however, will say, that if you can re-home a bird, he ain't really that smart cause he don't know where "home" is. 
My opinion is, if I give someone a bird and they release it after months and months and it still comes home.....well, guess what? THAT bird ain't leaving my loft again.  I had that happen in 2007 and the birds are still here. 
I also had a stray bird back in 2003 that the owner didn't want back. I mated him to a hen, trap trained him, loft flew him, tossed him, they raised two babies, then one day not only did HE never come back, he took my hen with him apparently, because she didn't come back either. As far as a "homing pigeon"......I suspect that the stray cock bird was the smarter of the two.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

yeah I myself think any bird that rehomes isnt all that bright cuz if you can rehome a homer thats been trained somewhere else its either going to get lost along the way while your tossing them or like Renee said go back home ,just my 2 cents ..Having them rehomed to your place is great but expecting them to come home from way out there miles away I think is expecting alot ...Not saying it cant be done and wont work but in my opinion it could end up being disapointing


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I understand what your saying Renee, any rehomed bird can all of a sudden just go back to it's original home or at least try too. With these birds I'm willing to take that chance. If they decide at one point that they don't want to go home to my loft then that's fine. I have no one to blame but myself for that. The reason why I started this thread was to get an idea of how fast good birds clock in at certain distances and I used the tossing of my rehomed birds as an example....maybe not a good idea....Right now I have no choice but to use these birds because I only have 2 other birds and those are my prisoner breeding pair. These 2, I will not let out no matter what! Their young are what I'm going to use to start up my first race team. I guess you could say that i want to learn this stuff through my own experience and ask questions as I go along. I'm not planning to race this season but I'm going to get as much experience and know how for the next season.

You have to start somewhere I guess....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I understand what your saying Renee, any rehomed bird can all of a sudden just go back to it's original home or at least try too. With these birds I'm willing to take that chance. If they decide at one point that they don't want to go home to my loft then that's fine. I have no one to blame but myself for that. The reason why I started this thread was to get an idea of how fast good birds clock in at certain distances and I used the tossing of my rehomed birds as an example....maybe not a good idea....Right now I have no choice but to use these birds because I only have 2 other birds and those are my prisoner breeding pair. These 2, I will not let out no matter what! Their young are what I'm going to use to start up my first race team. I guess you could say that i want to learn this stuff through my own experience and ask questions as I go along. I'm not planning to race this season but I'm going to get as much experience and know how for the next season.
> 
> You have to start somewhere I guess....


OH, I understand what YOU'RE saying too........just wanted to throw that out there because I don't think that a rehomed bird that doesn't come home one day is necessarily a "dumb" bird...........anyway...I'll get back on track here.....
I agree with the others. Until you get the birds out a good ways, speed doesn't really mean much. Today they might come home in 5 minutes from 5 miles and tomorrow they might take 30 minutes. The further they are from home, the faster they make a bee line for home. Sometimes.......LOL


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

I think maybe it would be helpful if you went to one loft race sites or club sites and check out the times they have for the birds that are coming in first place on races , you can see how fast they are from the short races to the long and i might at least give you an idea of what fast is in terms of miles and times taken to get home ..just was a thought


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Again, in short tosses, even at fifty it is hard to tell speed, i have tossed from fifty with different speeds, you can rarely judge speed from a toss. i have had my birds go tripping/routing after being tossed at fifty, depends on the birds, and their condition. i always started at 5, and then went 15, at least here ten was bad, (towers) ect. It may sound strange but the worst tosses i ever had were short ones, i do not recommend it, but i have made a first toss at 15 and no problems, but have had HUGE losses at five. Again location makes a big difference.
Renee is right, you cannot rehome a real homer, that has good potential, i have done it, but the bird was a stray, and it would not cross lake Mich., i am sure it was tired the first time, and freaked out after seeing the lake after that. the bird, according to the owner, out of a suburb of Detroit, had flown a total of 5,000 miles, but never placed at all. 
If you can resettle them, they most often, will not produce homers worth racing, JMHO Dave P.S Being smart, has nothing to do with homing ability.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> OH, I understand what YOU'RE saying too........just wanted to throw that out there because I don't think that a rehomed bird that doesn't come home one day is necessarily a "dumb" bird...........anyway...I'll get back on track here.....
> I agree with the others. Until you get the birds out a good ways, speed doesn't really mean much. Today they might come home in 5 minutes from 5 miles and tomorrow they might take 30 minutes. The further they are from home, the faster they make a bee line for home. Sometimes.......LOL


Got it Renee....Thanks! It will be a great accomplishment for me to be able to toss these birds from 50 miles. I know they can do it!


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> I think maybe it would be helpful if you went to one loft race sites or club sites and check out the times they have for the birds that are coming in first place on races , you can see how fast they are from the short races to the long and i might at least give you an idea of what fast is in terms of miles and times taken to get home ..just was a thought


That is a great suggestion Lakota, but i don't know the first thing about reading those race sheets. I've never really looked at one in detail to be honest. I thought if I would just ask then our experienced flyers would make it easy for me and tell me "It takes my best bird 10 minutes to return home from a 20 mile trainning toss". But that's obviously not the case here. LOL There seems to be more factors involved than what I was aware of.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Henry, i like your spirit! after a while 50 mile tosses will get to be "easy" for your birds. BUT i remember to this day, the first homers of mine that returned from a fifty mile toss, what a feeling! Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

racing pigeon mall, go to race results, husker hawkeye combine. There you will find several years of racing, from 100 to 600 mi fast races and slow headwind races.
Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

i am not sure, but i think he wants to know if his training tosses are fast or not. You will be real bummed, at least in most cases to compare 100+ mile Y.P.M. to training speeds. Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Once he gets to 50mi there shouldn't be a lot of difference in ypm, that just gives him some thing to go by.
Dave


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

I just wanted to say I didnt mean that they werent bright ,I just ment they didnt carry as a great homing sense if they can be rehomed as far as homers go in my opinion, didnt mean to insult them thou  heres a link to the the cbs mercedes classic race one loft results , they are pretty easy to figure out ,they just have the time released ,the milage and the return times ..http://www.cbspigeon.com/MC/Results08.html


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> i am not sure, but i think he wants to know if his training tosses are fast or not. You will be real bummed, at least in most cases to compare 100+ mile Y.P.M. to training speeds. Dave


That's what I want to know. I thought if I got a few examples of trainning tosses from other members here on PT I would be able to see if theses birds of mine are even in the ballpark. 



> racing pigeon mall, go to race results, husker hawkeye combine. There you will find several years of racing, from 100 to 600 mi fast races and slow headwind races.
> Dave


Thanks for the info Dave. I'll check it ouy for sure.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> I just wanted to say I didnt mean that they werent bright ,I just ment they didnt carry as a great homing sense if they can be rehomed as far as homers go in my opinion, didnt mean to insult them thou  heres a link to the the cbs mercedes classic race one loft results , they are pretty easy to figure out ,they just have the time released ,the milage and the return times ..http://www.cbspigeon.com/MC/Results08.html


No worries bro! That's why I joined this forum! Everyone is entitled to an opinion and it's great when you can get straight answers from people wheather you like it or not.

Thanks for the link!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I think the thing you'll find is that no matter how FAST or SLOW the birds are in training, it don't mean much once the races start. Flying 30 or 40 birds of your birds to your loft is completely different than flying 30 of your birds in a flock of 200 or 300 or more going in 50 different directions........
When I first started I felt like I had to have the birds down the road frequently and would get so upset if they were "late"........but IMO, the MAIN thing training does is get them time on the wing and whips them into flying shape. After you do that, the rest is up to the birds for the most part. I believe that you could take your flock of birds to the first race station a dozen times, but the first time they're there with a flock of other race birds........it might be a different story. 
Think about this. The guys that fly 75 miles on the first race. You would THINK that they would pound that 75 mile race station with their birds and kick butt race day. Seldom happens. What USUALLY happens is those short birds fly with the rest of the flock for another 50 miles and THEN have to turn around and go home. So actually, that flyer who's birds are suppose to fly 75 miles, might fly 150........which isn't good on the race sheet, but he knows his birds are in good enough condition to do that distance without a problem. 
Training is more conditioning than anything else. If you take your birds 40 miles and they're home in less than an hour, in a way, that's good.....they're flying good speeds, but in a way, that's bad too. They can fly 40 miles, but can they keep up that pace for 150 miles? 200 miles? Conditioning is where it's at.....after health of course.


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## AngelsWingsloft (Dec 24, 2008)

*speed*

if iam racing in 150 mile race it takes about 1 hr to 1 hr and 10 mins for the birds to come home, if that help u


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> Don't want to "bust your bubble", but they just MIGHT have enough "homing" ability to GO HOME........their REAL home, not yours. If you toss them one day and never see them again, that doesn't mean they have no homing ability. It just might mean the their TRUE homing ability kicked in and that's where they went.
> We go round and round about this "re-homing" thing all the time around here. I've never said it can't be done and in fact, amazingly enough to me, quite a few here have done just that.
> Depending on who you ask, some will say that if you can re-home a bird, you've got a really smart bird on your hands.
> Other however, will say, that if you can re-home a bird, he ain't really that smart cause he don't know where "home" is.
> ...


yeapp.... i agree with renee..... some of the birds maybe flying to where they came from... a few months ago i gave birds to my friend he maybe 10 miles from my loft and he rehome the bird and start loft flying for about two weeks, then one sunday my friend called me that the bird was gone and a few of his birds i went outside, there it goes the bird that he rehomed and a few of his birds on my landing board.....


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Gee. Renee, very well put! Tosses are for exercise, as you said. It would be great if you could tell how fast your birds would be from training tosses, but as you said, and i agree, you can not. It is for bringing them in to condition/form.
I do not care how fast any ones bird gets home from even a 100 mile toss, mix it with 1,200 and it is another ball game altogether. Again, well put! Dave


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

AngelsWingsloft said:


> if iam racing in 150 mile race it takes about 1 hr to 1 hr and 10 mins for the birds to come home, if that help u


That is a new record in the AU!!!! Your birds flying from 150 miles in 1 hour 10 minutes are flying at 3771.4285 YPM I need to get some of your birds!!!


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

whitesnmore said:


> That is a new record in the AU!!!! Your birds flying from 150 miles in 1 hour 10 minutes are flying at 3771.4285 YPM I need to get some of your birds!!!


niceee........


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL! GOOD POINT! I hope he will let me have some of his young next year! i never even did the math............ Dave


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Screw next year!! I want them now


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## Young Bird (May 2, 2007)

My first birds home took about an hour from a 80 mile training toss on Saturday I released them with my 2 mentors birds which was a little over 200 birds on the toss. So need some of those birds ASAP.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I was curious to know how fast is fast when it comes to clocking your birds from training tosses. I've have recently tossed my birds a distance of 5 miles for the past 2 weekends and have clocked my best bird out the 3 I toss arriving 10 minutes after being tossed. The other 2 arrive maybe 10-15 minutes later. Is this fast or is this horribly slow. What is considered fast for a 5-10 miles training toss?
> 
> Henry


I think the times from a 5 to 10 mile toss is almost meaningless. At that distance, it is within their routing range, so if they are feeling good, it may be very much like loft flying, and they could take an hour or they could take a few minutes. The ones which take an hour may actually be feeling very good, and are using this opportunity to stretch their wings, and the ones back in a few minutes could simply be out of condition and not feeling as well. I have never really found a correlation between training toss speeds and race speeds, but then I only road train out to 55 miles.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

AngelsWingsloft said:


> if iam racing in 150 mile race it takes about 1 hr to 1 hr and 10 mins for the birds to come home, if that help u


That's the kind of answer I was looking for....Lol.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Henry, did you read Whitesandmore's reply? Dave


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## mookeeman (Dec 11, 2008)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I was curious to know how fast is fast when it comes to clocking your birds from training tosses. I've have recently tossed my birds a distance of 5 miles for the past 2 weekends and have clocked my best bird out the 3 I toss arriving 10 minutes after being tossed. The other 2 arrive maybe 10-15 minutes later. Is this fast or is this horribly slow. What is considered fast for a 5-10 miles training toss?
> 
> Henry


from here to there really quick


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I think the times from a 5 to 10 mile toss is almost meaningless. At that distance, it is within their routing range, so if they are feeling good, it may be very much like loft flying, and they could take an hour or they could take a few minutes. The ones which take an hour may actually be feeling very good, and are using this opportunity to stretch their wings, and the ones back in a few minutes could simply be out of condition and not feeling as well. I have never really found a correlation between training toss speeds and race speeds, but then I only road train out to 55 miles.


Please explain why 5-10 miles would be meaningless? From what I've gathered here on this thread it doesn't matter how far you train toss your birds because on race day all that goes out the window! Anything could happen! Because on any given race day your birds can decide to take a vacation and drink margarita's on the beach!...lol. I don't mean to sound foolish but isn't their benifits to knowing how well your birds hold up to certain distances before putting them in a race? Isn't that the point of road trainning? It would give me confidence in my birds to know that they have traveled what ever race distance that I'm entering them in before rather than just guessing and telling myself I conditioned them the best I could. I rather have both confidence in condition and in experience at whatever race distance!

Is that just me?....


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> Henry, did you read Whitesandmore's reply? Dave


I did! LOL....it might be off the wall but that's the type of answer I was looking for....Lol. Straioght to the point!


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

As said, training tosses mean ZIP. When in a race, they Know they can not fool around. Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

No pigeon flies at 3,000 Y.P.M. Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

So is Dave correct? Trainning tosses mean zip? So why are people wasting their time doing trainning tosses?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

NO! With great respect, training tosses are your MOST important tool, the point is IGNORE speed when doing training tosses. The speed a bird comes home from a toss has so many factors involved, hunger, weather, distance, that you can never judge the quality of homers from it. as most posters have said. IF training tosses meant much, i still would breed homers and judge them from training tosses, DOES NOT work. Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

AU speed record 100mi 2957 ypm set in March 2004, isn't 3000 but close
Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Dave. that is a 100 M. race, as you said a RECORD. the real races as far as i am concerned were 150 and up,  Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

April 1937 2039 mi. 43 days 10 hrs, think you have a bird that will go that far?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Please explain why 5-10 miles would be meaningless? From what I've gathered here on this thread it doesn't matter how far you train toss your birds because on race day all that goes out the window! Anything could happen! Because on any given race day your birds can decide to take a vacation and drink margarita's on the beach!...lol. I don't mean to sound foolish but isn't their benifits to knowing how well your birds hold up to certain distances before putting them in a race? Isn't that the point of road trainning? It would give me confidence in my birds to know that they have traveled what ever race distance that I'm entering them in before rather than just guessing and telling myself I conditioned them the best I could. I rather have both confidence in condition and in experience at whatever race distance!
> 
> Is that just me?....


Well....whose confidence and experience are we to be concerned about, yours or the birds ? I thought I did explain why at at short distances of 5 to 10 miles, the speed is unimportant. Did you read it ? What part don't you understand ?

The first basic concept you must be able to grasp, is that it is not necessary to teach a homing pigeon how to find his way home. If that concept is misunderstood, then you will make the wrong assumptions as to why you even do road training in the first place. 

It may seem like a minor detail, but if one is to learn the advanced concepts of this art form we call "pigeon racing" then one needs to master the fundamentals. It's not rocket science, but at the same time, it is many of those small details which will trip the fancier up. 

You say..." I don't mean to sound foolish but isn't their benifits to knowing how well your birds hold up to certain distances before putting them in a race?"...well, if you really want to I suppose you could get in your car and drive them down the road 300 and some odd miles, and let them go, just so you will know that they can do that distance. And perhaps your birds do AU record breaking time, but since it is not a race, it won't really mean anything, and the following week, when there is a 300 mile race, your birds may end up coming home dead last. In which case, what will you have learned ? 

Just to muddy the waters a bit, we have a Combine member who is old in years and in poor health. His birds only see the inside of a basket on shipping night, as he does no road training. He does better then 75% of the Combine membership. However, he loft flies his birds for 2+ hours a day. So, what does this example tell you ?

I suggest you invest some time pondering the information we have shared with you already. That would help facilatate the learning process. And then come back and give your explanation as why the first few training tosses at short distances, with young, inexperienced, but healthy and energetic YB's might just take their good ole time coming back to the loft, and when they do come back, may circle for 15 minutes and then take off for another 30 minutes. And why the best thing might not be that they are back to the loft in record time and sitting inside panting or otherwise worn out from the effort.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Crazy Pete said:


> April 1937 2039 mi. 43 days 10 hrs, think you have a bird that will go that far?


 Who said i did? your insomnia must be worse than mine! 43 days, ten hours, thats like what, 5 yards per minute? LOL!


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> So is Dave correct? Trainning tosses mean zip? So why are people wasting their time doing trainning tosses?


I have limited experience so I don't know as much as the other guys. I toss birds for physical conditioning. Just like any athlete, a pigeon needs some kind of a workout to get their strength. The homing and how fast they get home part is all in the breeding as far as I'm concerned. A toss of 10 miles or so only conditions a bird to a point, and doesn't say much about homing because the distance is not much. I toss my birds anywhere from 25 to 100 miles because that's the distance I and friends go to work and play on a regular basis. If a have a friend going out if town I'll ask them to take a few birds and release them at destination, or somewhere along the way. Most flyers I talk to don't take a bird out any farther than 50-60 miles. 

For conditioning, I think 50 miles is far enough if they are being tossed regularly. I work 50 miles away from home and it takes me about 45 minutes driving 75-80+ MPH (I drive fast). This drive is tiring even in a car. A bird flying this distance would have to work a bit to get home, especially against head winds, as mine do.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I learn some thing new every day, i'll ponder that also.
thanks Warren


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Warren! you are still scaring me! that was well put, had experience behind it, and the part about just loft flying is SO true. I am SO agreeing with you. 
A toss is a toss, and a race is something different. YES, one of my old mentors only loft flew, and he kicked my BUTT! They are Homers, it is in their blood, exercise is the most important thing! The homing, in even an average strain is already there. JMHO Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

windaidedaviary said:


> I have limited experience so I don't know as much as the other guys. I toss birds for physical conditioning. Just like any athlete, a pigeon needs some kind of a workout to get their strength. The homing and how fast they get home part is all in the breeding as far as I'm concerned. A toss of 10 miles or so only conditions a bird to a point, and doesn't say much about homing because the distance is not much. I toss my birds anywhere from 25 to 100 miles because that's the distance I and friends go to work and play on a regular basis. If a have a friend going out if town I'll ask them to take a few birds and release them at destination, or somewhere along the way. Most flyers I talk to don't take a bird out any farther than 50-60 miles.
> 
> For conditioning, I think 50 miles is far enough if they are being tossed regularly. I work 50 miles away from home and it takes me about 45 minutes driving 75-80+ MPH (I drive fast). This drive is tiring even in a car. A bird flying this distance would have to work a bit to get home, especially against head winds, as mine do.


Hey...who are you ?

Welcome to Pigeon Talk ! 

Actually, I have never been convinced that my maximum distance of 55 miles for a training toss, is really the ideal conditioning method. They will do that distance in about 65 to 70 minutes. So, they get a really good 1 hour work out. But, what about those days when they are loft flying and in the air for well over 2 hours ? I mean what leads to better conditioning a 65 minute training toss or 2 1/2 hours of good loft flying ?

I do road work along the line of flight, and only the line of flight, in order to teach them that once they hit that familar territory to "Break for Home". And to have them actually "Race" home, instead of just come home. So for me in my thinking, it is a racing, breaking and trapping excersize. But then historically, I normally only train out to 55 miles. If I ever stop being lazy, and spend the time and gas, to drive a few more hours and get them to the 1st race station, which some guys do, then I think it would also be conditioning. But, I have operated on the theory, that two 55 mile training tosses, are better then a single 100+ mile training toss. But, maybe I have had it backwards......


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Just to muddy the waters a bit, we have a Combine member who is old in years and in poor health. His birds only see the inside of a basket on shipping night, as he does no road training. *He does better then 75% of the Combine membership. *However, he loft flies his birds for 2+ hours a day. So, what does this example tell you ?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> OK....looking back at the race results, I was wrong, he is in the top 15% in terms of average speed etc. So, he is better then 85% of the membership. But, he does like I said, a lot of loft flying.


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

Loft flying only should be as good as taking them out to a distance. Flying is flying and they get a workout either way. I would say the only reason I take them out is because I want them to test against the head winds and weather. I'm on the coast so it's pretty good weather year round. During the summer, the inland temperature gets to 100+ and as they make their way home, the temp drops to the 70's or lower usually. In the winter, it can be in the 20's in the morning inland to the upper 60's when they get home. Don't know if this is necessary, but I do it for personal confidence and to weed out the weak ones.


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

Hi Warren.

I'm a beginner trying to find out what works and trying to build a foundation. I have no affiliation to any group or anything like that. I'm as new to pigeon racing as new can be.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Loft flying is not the same as road training. Dave


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

LUCKYT said:


> Loft flying is not the same as road training. Dave


Well, apparently it is for some!

Dan


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

AngelsWingsloft said:


> if iam racing in 150 mile race it takes about 1 hr to 1 hr and 10 mins for the birds to come home, if that help u





whitesnmore said:


> That is a new record in the AU!!!! Your birds flying from 150 miles in 1 hour 10 minutes are flying at 3771.4285 YPM I need to get some of your birds!!!



LOL...........yea, I want some of those birds too. Maybe what he meant was that it's "technically" a 150 mile race but HIS birds aren't actually flying 150 miles. Maybe he's a short guy. We fly our "500" from Brewton, AL. However it's ACTUALLY 560 for me and over 600 for some flyers......so, what he "said" and what he "meant" may be two different things.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> NO! With great respect, training tosses are your MOST important tool, the point is IGNORE speed when doing training tosses. The speed a bird comes home from a toss has so many factors involved, hunger, weather, distance, that you can never judge the quality of homers from it. as most posters have said. IF training tosses meant much, i still would breed homers and judge them from training tosses, DOES NOT work. Dave


Makes sense....What if you were to train your birds with other people birds and try to simulate an actual race? Could that information be used to tell if the bird/s are race worthy?....Sorry if I'm making it to complicated, I just want to get things right.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Makes sense....What if you were to train your birds with other people birds and try to simulate an actual race? Could that information be used to tell if the bird/s are race worthy?....Sorry if I'm making it to complicated, I just want to get things right.


Training your birds with others before the race is an excellent thing to do. If the birds are taken far enough, it CAN give you some sense of how your birds are doing and it teaches the birds to break away from the pack BEFORE they're sent to their first race. If you've got members close enough to do this, then by all means, go for it.
Wish I had some close.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

> And then come back and give your explanation as why the first few training tosses at short distances, with young, inexperienced, but healthy and energetic YB's might just take their good ole time coming back to the loft, and when they do come back, may circle for 15 minutes and then take off for another 30 minutes. And why the best thing might not be that they are back to the loft in record time and sitting inside panting or otherwise worn out from the effort.


These arn't young birds that I am dealing with. If you read up on some of my earlier post I stated that these are rehomed adult birds. I've re-read everything on this thread many times and I've learned that you can't use training tosses that you do on your own to measure up your birds for a race. That I understand clearly now. What you can take out of it is your birds are getting the proper conditioning they need for an upcoming race. But, you can get the same conditioning results by simply loft flying your birds for 2+ hours a day like the old guy in your club! Now I get all that....thanks for being patient with me...Lol. Now like I asked Dave, what if you were to simulate a race with other flyers and train toss your birds with theirs, can you use that information for measuring up your birds for a race?

Thanks,

Henry


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

windaidedaviary said:


> Don't know if this is necessary, but I do it for personal confidence and to weed out the weak ones.


Thanks for your input. This is my general thought also.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> Loft flying is not the same as road training. Dave


Now this is just makes things more complicated...I want to hear Warren's thoughts on this....Lol.


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