# Goop (glue) Traps & One Way Entrance Traps



## andinla

I thought I would start this thread for the fact that I read in another post something about using dawn soap to help birds stuck in the goop. If anyone has any experience on this topic (glue) on roof tops, please post it here.

My friend went on a roof top to help a pigeon that was stuck in the goop and saw a entire family of sparrows dead in the goop, also they found a pigeon at the bottom ground level of the apt building covered in the stuff, the pigeon died do to falling 3 stories and not being able to open his wings to fly, the vet said he died from internal injuries. I think this should be against the law.. I know that Pigeons are not protected by law, but it is also killing lots of other protected birds. What a horrible way to die. 

Also I don't know if anyone else has come across gas stations, etc that have one way traps upon their roof tops, and next to the traps are big 20 gallon blue water tanks that have a automatic watering system for the birds trapped inside. What I have come across is two gas stations which happen to be the same company, the first one we put a ladder up at night and went up and saved the pigeons (11) I believe it was, my friend did something to the door of the trap so no other pigeons could go inside of it. Two days ago I came across the second gas station 3 miles away with the same thing. This one has a 20 ft roof so it is going to be hard to rescue them... My friend left his phone number for who ever was responsible for doing the trapping to call him which they did, the guy would not tell him what company he worked for, what his name was but did mention the fact he hates pigeons and he drives them up north somewhere and they are taken care of (whatever that means?) he also only checks the traps once a month and said he leaves enough food out for 4 weeks at a time. The first trap we went to there were two young pigeons that were nearly starved to death from being in there. I don't believe this is humane or should be legal. Isn't there anything people can do to stop this disgusting way of eliminating pigeons? If anyone has come across either one of these type of pigeon traps please post it here.

Sorry this is so long......


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## Feefo

Hi Andi,

Edie (wovenwoman) rescued a pigeon that had been caught in a glue trap. I don't know how often she visits this forum but you could e-mail her or contact her through fprc.

What is happening to pigeons and other birds through these traps, whether it is legal or not in your country or state, is unacceptable.[ You will have to gather evidence and make a big and constant stink. Write to whoever has a voice in your area including the humanetarian society, newspapers, celebreties and politicians. And keep wrting. If the press makes the people that do this sort of thing look bad they will stop.

You and your friend are confronting some horrioble situations and are being very brave. You deserve to succeed.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

THis could be a starting point


http://www.bancrueltraps.com/actionalerts?p=189&more=1

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC

Andi, I am the one who posted about the glue traps under "A theory about how pigeons get hurt feet", in this same forum. You can reference that.

If you find a bird actually stuck, try to keep the bird from struggling. You can use warm canola oil (102-104 degrees F) to apply to the feathers that are stuck. Work very gently and work in the oil on the stuck feathers and allow about 5 minutes for the oil to soften the glue. Very gently lift the bird from the glue. Then, keep the bird warm and allow it to rest for a few hours or so because they are very stressed. After the bird has rested you can apply a little more warmed oil to the affected feathers and gently stroke the feathers toward the tip of the feather. The glue will form a kinda globby mass that can be gently pulled off the tip of the feather. You can then wash with the Dawn. As a further step I use the chinchilla dust to get any residual flecks of glue off. The chinchilla dust can be purchased at any Petsmart or other pet store. Just make sure it is kept out of eyes, ears and nostrils.

It will take some planning to do this if they are on top of a roof to get the oil warm but it must be warm to get the glue off.

The evil people who put this crap out have no heart, period. They think they are deterring pigeons but the ultimate victims are the tiny songbirds that most people love. It must be a horrible death.

I have not encountered the traps you speak of. My only suggestion is find out who gave the man permission to put them out, take pictures and let the public know what is going on.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon

Thanks Andi, for starting this thread and Cynthia and Maggie for your follow ups. One thing I neglected to mention in the other thread is that I was told by this fellow who had seen birds trapped on the glue, that they will mutilate themselves to free themselves of being trapped there and end up w/missing toes etc. 

This other trap that you described, Andi, I haven't heard about and it sounds just equally horific. Together w/the link provided by Cynthia, this is a good start at making our collective voices heard.

fp


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## andinla

*Went To Release Trapped Pigeons Tonight &*

We were a day to late. As we were putting up the 20 foot ladder against the building it kinda of banged the side and the guy working inside came around the corner, and said he thought he had heard something. I told him my bird got away and we were told it landed on this building so my friend is up there checking it out. He said the only thing up there or around here is pigeons, I said yeah my bird is a pigeon (da!!) it's a bird. My friend yelled down to the guy when was the last time the pigeon trapper was here and he said yesterday at 4:00 PM We missed the pigeons trapped inside, I know there were at least four of them. My friend broke the trap's door so no more pigeons can enter. I left a ton of food at the back of the station in the gravel so no one would notice. There were two babies looked like they were just about ready to leave the nest, one of them was on the ground looking for food. (weird I never see that at night) I am concerned their parents my have been trapped and taken away. I plan to go back tomorrow to try and get the little guys. The guy working at the station was pretty cool and gave us the managers name so we can contact their corporate office to find out who ordered the pigeon removal (trapper dude) this is the same guy who we left our number for at the last rescue we did at a station. He called and like I mentioned before he hates pigeons and would not tell us where or who he works for. My friend that helps me rescue mentioned that he could be selling them for food (yuk) I plan on getting to the bottom of it and finding out all the details. I will let you all know as soon as I find out more

Andi


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## Skyeking

Thank Andi, for your update and for all the good work you are doing! 

I hope you can make some headway. You have alot of people on your side!


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## andinla

*Bird Control co reply by email*

I sent a email to this company I believe it was their website that showed 50 pigeons cramed into a cage ready to transport to who knows where? I did a search online yellow pages and put in bird control and several co came up, crittercontrol seems to have branches just about everywhere .. Check out the date it say's on the guys email to me, for a minute there I got a little scared, I know I am old but hey thats out there.

Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1904 2:24 PM
Subject: Can you please
To: <[email protected]>

> explain some of your methods in bird control please and send them to 
my 
> email at
> [email protected].
>
> We have a pigeon problem.
>
> Thanks so much
> Andi
>
Dear Andy:

There are a number of approaches we can take with Pigeons. Most of the 
approaches work best when you combine them. We can do the following:

Install plastic or stainless steel spikes on ledges where they roost.
Install shock track on areas where they roost.
Install bird wire on ledges or rails.
Install bird netting over large areas.
Install aluminum barriers.
Install screen or plastic strip doors.
Apply gel repellent.
Trap and remove.
Bait and remove.

We would have to inspect your physical location first to determine 
which methods would work best for your situation. Please let me know where 
you live and I can refer you to the nearest Critter Control office.

You can see the available bird control products at 
www.wildlifemanagementsupplies.com

Respectfully submitted:

Sean Carruth
Critter Control, Inc.
1-800-451-6544
"Protecting People, Property & Wildlife"


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Andi, 

Wow, you are a very courageous and determined person to go to these lengths to help the pigeons...climbing up ladders to those heights and risking getting caught or fined! 

I think what you are doing is very admirable and kind but PLEASE, be careful in any of these situations you get yourself into.


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## andinla

*Thank you*

I will be careful, it is scarey going up the ladders, or even standing below, but what a feeling it is to see them released back to nature, and from certain death.

I think I need to take a different approach on the trapping , glueing, etc, I was thinking of writing to Major gas corporations, and Property management companies and give them all the facts, on the glue applications, and also the trapping and removal of birds. I think if everyone here started doing this around the globe maybe just maybe we would see a reduction in pest control companies applying these horrible ways of removing pigeons,etc

If people knew what was taking place upon roof tops next to them most people would freak out, so it must be exposed. I want to get to the bottom of the pest control companies on what they do with the birds after removal, I want the public to beaware of what thier local stores (gas, food, etc) are doing to innocent birds. We need to put a end to these applications of bird removal and if everyone here worked on it just a little bit then maybe we could stop them.

We also need to get pigeons protected by the gov. some how. It maybe a fight but we must do something about it . All of us. So if anyone has any ideas on this please write them here. We need to be a voice for the voiceless ok? thanks for reading. 

Ideas on pest control applications stopping glue applications, trapping and removal of pigeons (where do they go) Poisons (bait)

Protection by the law (pigeons have a right to be protected) we need to help now. Ideas on this how to go about campaigning for them.

Any suggestions appreciated: post here or new thread 

thanks


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## feralpigeon

andinla said:


> We also need to get pigeons protected by the gov. some how. It maybe a fight but we must do something about it . All of us. So if anyone has any ideas on this please write them here. We need to be a voice for the voiceless ok? thanks for reading.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions appreciated: post here or new thread
> 
> thanks


I'd love to see them classified as war veterans, but I doubt that will ever happen. I'd be happy to see them w/just the same protections as other wild birds. Unfortunately, too many see them as a nuisance.

fp


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## Maggie-NC

Well, its not only the glue and traps.

A few years ago, after we had stopped rehabbing songbirds, a neighbor called to ask if we would take some chimney swifts that she had some men remove from her chimney because they were so noisy. I told her to take the swifts to a clinic where they have rehabbers experienced in swifts. She told me she was too busy, that she had company coming. 

I went outside and went up to the men she had hired and asked them if they were taking the babies to the clinic. They said no, they never did, but they had put the babies in a tree in back of the lot and the parents would feed them. I know my blood pressure skyrocketed. I told them they knew better - that the parents wouldn't take care of them in a tree which was totally against their natural breeding environment. I also informed them that swifts were protected species and they could be prosecuted but of course they could care less. I wound up raising the babies but needless to say that neighbor's attitude changed my opinion of her a great deal.

The world is full of self-centered, cruel people but thank goodness, there are also caring people.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon

Hi Maggie,

You have no idea how much it makes my blood boil when contruction or related service workers "play dumb". I can totally sympathize w/your feelings including
focussing on the better half of humanity .

fp


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## Lin Hansen

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Maggie,
> 
> You have no idea how much it makes my blood boil when contruction or related service workers "play dumb". I can totally sympathize w/your feelings including
> focussing on the better half of humanity .
> 
> fp


Hi Everyone,

This is a little off topic in that it doesn't pertain to glue traps, etc. but I thought you might enjoy hearing this:

This happened last Spring....Beside the elementary school where I used to work, there was a driveway alongside the school with huge (about 5ft X 5ft) heavy sewer grates over openings that were at least 4 feet deep. These were for storm water drainage.

One afternoon at lunch time, one of the students noticed that there were three sparrow fledglings hopping around and cheeping at the bottom of one of these sewer openings. They were too young to fly. We went and informed the principal and I must admit, I really didn't think that any action would be taken to remedy the situation.

Much to my surprise and delight, the principal called our town's street department. Before a half hour had passed three men showed up with crowbars and a ladder. It took the three of them to pry up that heavy grate
and one of them climbed down and rescued the babies. The whole thing only took about 15 minutes but still I was very cynical in my thinking that nobody would care enough to try to help three little sparrows. I was so glad that my thinking was proved wrong that day.

With all the bad stuff that goes on relating to our bird friends, it's nice to know that some people do care and will go out of their way to help sometimes.

Andi - My hat is off to you...you are really going above and beyond to try to make a difference.

Linda


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## TerriB

Andi - way to go! You are awesome!

Linda - I agree that it's an uphill struggle. Sometimes, the best you can do is to focus the attention and make doing the right thing easy. Plus, you never know the ripple effect. Think of the impact on the school children who saw adults making the effort to help out those baby sparrows.


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## andinla

*Peta Action Alert Goop On Building In Calif*

I was going through PETA'S website and came across this, the photos on there are three pigeons died and stuck to the roof , it is horrible. We need to put a end to this sick practice of bird control... now. 

Please write this property management company it only takes a few words of all the wisdom I know you all have and send it to the address below. Thanks for helping.

Andi

Urgent: Birds Still Writhing, Dying on Sticky Surfaces in Coastal California!

PETA has learned that Lilly Property Management is using a sticky glue-like substance to kill birds on a residential building in Mar Vista, California. Images of birds who reportedly have fallen prey to these cruel products at this location can be viewed here. Products such as TangleFoot, while advertised as "deterrents," actually end up causing birds to suffer slow, agonizing deaths when they land upon them.

It can take days for trapped animals to die from starvation and dehydration, and the glue can rip patches of skin and feathers from the animals' bodies as they struggle to escape. These sticky "repellents" can also cause "nontarget" animals who accidentally land on them to suffer and die as well. (Directly or indirectly harming any protected bird is a violation of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and is punishable by a $15,000 fine per violation.)

In addition to being cruel, sticky "repellents," poisons, and other lethal methods will not control animal populations. The only long-term way to control bird populations is to modify the habitat so that the area is unattractive or inaccessible to the animals. PETA has attempted to provide Property Supervisor Reid Slovis with humane alternatives to this hideous glue, but our requests have been met with silence. We have sent Mr. Slovis detailed information on proven, humane bird-exclusion methods, including PETA's new report "Permanent and Humane Pigeon-Control Solutions" and the factsheet "Street Pigeons: War Heroes, Devoted Parents, Clever Learners," but again, all to no apparent avail, and now we desperately need your help. 

It is vital that Mr. Slovis assure you that his properties will forgo the use of Tanglefoot and other sticky repellents now and in the future and that he will instead rely on effective, humane methods that everyone can live with, including the birds.

Be nice, or it will work against this campaign:

Reid Slovis, Property Supervisor
Lilly Property Management
4727 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90010
323-930-2671
323-937-7051 (fax)

mw 8233


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## WhiteWingsCa

re: breaking the "traps" - please be careful here. You are damaging property that belongs to someone else - it's just a matter of time before you are identified, and fined for doing so.

re: removing the "goop" -- "Goo Gone" would likely work - and it's safe (the soap form -- "15. My dog got into some tar. Can I use Goo Gone on his fur?

While we do not officially recommend Goo Gone, we are aware of its use to remove ink and tar from pets and by veterinarians to de-oil birds. Be careful with the animal's eyes, and wash it off thoroughly afterwards. And remember, Goo Gone Hand Soap is perfect for our furry friends." - 
http://www.magicamerican.com/faq.shtml

http://www.magicamerican.com/googone.shtml


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## andinla

*As far as the traps being damaged*

my friend doesn't actually break them, he somehow disengages the springs that are very well fixable at no cost that way while the trap is up on the roof for a month until the pesty dude comes for his birds (he has no birds) simply.....

thanks
Andi

As for using googone on a animal (that stuff is nasty and I would never put that on anything alive.)


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## Maggie-NC

I'm not familiar with goo-gone soap but I do have the regular kind and it warns to use in a well ventilated area. I personally will stick to Dawn for the time being, but if the soap proves to be effective by wildlife people I will keep an open mind. Anything, just anything, that can help remove this horrible stuff, as long as it does not hurt the bird more, may be worth a try.

Maggie


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## andinla

*RESPONSE LETTER FROM NPMA (national pest control message board)*

I posted this question to the national pest control assocation on a message board (his response on the goop gel is not true, this is crazy if they do not realize what their people are using. And what it is doing to wild life. 


what is the law on removal of pest control who have traps placed on commerical buildings left for a month that trap pigeons what are they allowed to do to them? use them for shooting targets, are they allowed to kill them themselves? also what is the law on goop gel that doesn't only kill pigeons but protected birds aswell? I think this is a horrible application the birds suffer and die a horrible death it needs to be out lawed and stopped please e-mail back I wait for your response. '
Thank you
Becka Dahm
I am in CA


Re: bird control methods
Posted By NPMA Staff on 11/15/2005 at 3:52 PM

Pigeons are often very serious pests, and they pose very significant human health threats by harboring and spreading pathogens, including histoplasmosis and coccidiomycoses, just to name a couple. They also frequently deface buildings and damage ventilation systems and routinely harbor mites which also readily bite humans (and pets). Controlling such pathogen reservoirs and pests is often VERY necessary, not just desirable. Regarding any questions about the legality of the particular actions you mention, I would have to actually see the details at the places where you report those actions to be occurring, and find out some additional facts to have any basis for any suggestions of any kind. There is a state government agency in each state which regulates commercial pest management companies, their employees' certifications, and business licenses. The exact title and organizational placement of such an agency can vary for different states. You would have to contact that agency and get their interpretation of those detailed situations and actions in question. I am certain that no properly licensed Pest Managemant company, nor any of its properly certified employees would do such things as you suggest (e.g., regarding using any captured bird as a "target," for anything). (Of course, private citizens might not abide by those same legal, ethical or practical guidlines.) If a professional Pest Management company's technicians are legally allowed to dispose of such captured pests, they would certainly use the most 'humane' method approved for that purpose. Some states have Health, or Wildlife, laws which actually require the euthanization of particular species of such vermin (but I do NOT think that is true of California). Laws can be changed (and often are) over time, and sometimes such changes can occur fairly suddenly. I (and the NPMA) are frequently not nearly as 'current' on your own state's laws as those state regulators mentioned earlier would be. Regarding your second concern, there is currently NO properly labeled (i.e., U.S. "EPA Registered") product available in the U.S. which is a surface "gel" with ANY significant toxic action. That "goop" (to use your term) literally does NOT kill the pigeons, but only makes them uncomfortable enough that they move away from that resting or loafing site (perch). Such products act only as a "sticky" deterant to the pigeons' standing on the sites to which it has been applied. Those gels are definitely NOT strong enough in their adhesive action to prevent a pigeon (or most other birds) from simply walking away. If the product label of those gels is followed, then those same exact sites would, in fact, seldom even be visited by non-target species (let alone any "protected" species). It is not clear to me whether or not you are claiming to have directly observed any birds dying in such an actual situation, or maybe you are only conjecturing about a "potential" scenario which has not been supported by such observations. I will suggest that you may wish to contact that state regulatory agency for their interpretations.


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## WhiteWingsCa

What a load of crap.

Mites/lice on pigeons are NOT transmittable to humans. If they were - my whole family would be crawling with them. After vaccinating and powdering the birds for lice, I've often had the little bugs crawling on ME! While the thought of them is uncomfortable - I know that they can't live anywhere but on the birds.

Pigeons do NOT pose "significant human health threats" - if they did, everyone with pigeons would be sick. I do understand that in cases where a building attic is swarming with pigeons, and never cleaned, then issues can arise - but this is rare. 

Just another example of how big companies twist things around in order to frighten the general public, and then cash in on that fear.....


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## feralpigeon

andinla said:


> Those gels are definitely NOT strong enough in their adhesive action to prevent a pigeon (or most other birds) from simply walking away. If the product label of those gels is followed, then those same exact sites would, in fact, seldom even be visited by non-target species (let alone any "protected" species).


The man I spoke with had actually seen pigeons trapped on the glue, and trying to self mutilate so that they could leave the stuck toes behind. Maybe the product becomes stickier over time when exposed to air and some of the moisture evaporates. Still, I'm having a hard time believing that the quote above is a truthful one. If a pigeon can get stuck, what about the smaller birds.

fp


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## Maggie-NC

This crap makes me so mad I could spit!  It is the same old garbage they spew out every time they are confronted.

If the public could see the tops of roofs with this crap on it and see what small birds look like after they are stuck, there would be an outcry. I personally have not seen a pigeon with the goop on it but you can go back and look at the pictures I posted to see what it did to that small finch which is a protected species, and believe if it is applied thickly enough it could entangle a pigeon who could not pull loose. The crap gets on feathers even if they can pull loose and they probably are not able to fly and fend for themselves. Everything they touch, dirt, trash, anything would stick to them, and what happens to their tongues and mouth and inside their body when they try to preen the crap off.

Maggie


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## andinla

*Get A Load Of This Pest Guys New Message Reigeons*

I WROTE THE NATIONAL PEST MANAGEMENT MESSAGE BOARD AGAIN RE:GEL GLUE AND PIGEON DIEASES ETC., I ALSO TOLD HIM TO CHECK OUT A PICTURE OF BIRDS IN THE GEL GLUE ON TOP OF A BUILDING, HE SUGGESTED THE PHOTO WAS REDONE IN SOME WAY TO MAKE IT LOOK BAD THAT'S WHAT PETA DOES (I know the photo is not a redone photo and also know it is a actually photo because my friend was there trying to save these birds. This guys reply is very long and it gets interesting towards the end regarding pigeons being war heros. 

Re: bird control
Posted By NPMA Staff on 11/17/2005 at 4:40 PM

Because of your sincerity (regardless of the misinformation you have acquired on several aspects of this topic), I will try one more time to offer you some verifiable factual information on several details in your two messages. Obviously, whether or not you believe anything I offer here is your choice. First, I had no intention of offending you, and I sincerely applaud your work to rescue any injured or struggling animals (of any kind). But you may be placing far too much undeserved blame on any given Pest Management technicians or companies. I have no way to know exactly what you saw, but applying a bird-repellent gel to a whole roof surface would be VERY time-consuming and would require a tremendous amount of the gel product. The combined cost of that much labor and gel product would have made such an application to even a small house


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## andinla

*Continued From Pest Message Board*

small house’s roof much too expensive for most homeowners, or even most business owners, to be willing to pay for. Certainly, even the most careful person may make mistakes, but NO professional pest management company would be as bad regarding this issue as you seem to think they all are. Such companies are in business to earn a profit, but most of them get far more income from inspections, surveillance, and pest-proofing than from any lethal actions or chemical applications of any kind. It is a fact that laymen surprisingly often commit terrible acts of cruelty to animals (including birds). It would be easy to blame any legitimate, properly licensed Pest Management company working at or near any given site for those acts. Unless you actually KNOW the specific background, sources, and circumstances of any given animal's problem(s) by direct observation or irrefutable physical evidence, you could not possibly be SURE of the accuracy of your accusations. PETA (and certain other extreme groups) have definitely been known to use modified images, and many other tricks, however and whenever it suited their current purposes. You should at least consider the possibility that they may have created and photographed the scenes shown on their web site themselves (that group has done many worse things), or they may have used a re-touched image of some long past events specifically to offend and inflame anyone who may view it. Not many years ago, most people in the U.S. were much more aware of, and much closer to, the literally savage side of Nature; and they were much less shocked by scenes which would now routinely become headline features in regional or local newspapers. Something “natural” does NOT mean something less brutal or more benign. Nature is NOT even usually benevolent, as such idealistic animated Disney™ films as Bambi have portrayed it. Living beings (any species) survive because they have become adapted to do so over time (in some cases, over very long periods) in their “usual” effective individual environments. PETA representatives have repeatedly and openly stated that a rat (apparently ANY rat) is equivalent in importance to a child (apparently ANY child). Do you believe all the made-up images you see in horror, or many other, films? And would you want someone directing or leading your actions (and possibly even your thoughts ?) who would sacrifice your child without any remorse at all if it meant "saving" two (or more) rats? I actually do know quite a lot about what I (and you) have been writing about. Your information (from PETA, or elsewhere) is at least seriously distorted, and, in some important details, just plain incorrect!! My sources of information have included the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), certain publications of the World Health Organization (WHO), and several well recognized published Medical and basic Scientific references and college texts; and even a significant number of my own direct personal observations. There is clear, overwhelming evidence, of undeniable factuality, that pigeons are, and have long been independently shown to be, reservoir hosts, and carriers, of the diseases and secondary pests I had briefly mentioned before (and more). I have a close personal friend who spent 8 months in a hospital bed several years ago, and he nearly died, due specifically to Histoplasmosis (with NO other complicating factors); so don’t even try to tell me that blatant lie (from the PETA web site, or from any other source) about Histoplasmosis causing only a “mild cold” in humans. Your information about Toxoplasmosis is wrong, too. Domestic cats (and related species) are, again undeniably, the main reservoirs of that disease (actually they are the "definitive hosts" of that parasitic micro-organism), and there is little or NO direct association with food, cooked or otherwise. I will repeat, pigeon control is very often quite necessary, even though their effective control does NOT have to be lethal. Changing the local situation and eliminating or greatly reducing availability of food so the birds are not (or are much less) attracted to any given pest problem site; and changing the physical nature of the surfaces where they like to roost or build nests are good long-term control strategies. Unfortunately, such measures are sometimes much too costly for the owner or manager of the building or property in question to afford. Also unfortunately, you clearly have a closed mind on these issues and nothing I or anyone else (outside the PETA camp) could possibly say or write would reach you. That is too bad, for you and millions of other people, because it prevents you (and others like you) from even acknowledging the VERY serious damage to medical research (among other things) which that organization (PETA) has done, and still openly continues to do. They are among the more obvious of the extreme organizations which the TV program "60 Minutes," and others, have recently openly labeled as "Eco-terrorists" and which are an obvious and serious threat as "domestic terrorist" groups. Regarding a pigeon ever having saved the life of any of my ancestors, I seriously doubt that was even a possibility. I happen to be a fairly well informed student of military history, as well; and pigeons have simply NEVER had more than a minor or incidental impact on any military campaign, operation, or even a single battle. There have been a few multiply-cited incidents where they delivered some possibly helpful message(s), but those have never been essential to the winning of any given objective of any military significance. Instead, they have always been more of a fascinating diversion, as versus other already available, more effective, and more practical means of communication. Wars and battles have seldom "happened" to go where the pigeons were "lofted" or to include places to which they would normally return. Messenger (or “homing”) pigeons must be carried along, routinely cared for (requiring considerable time, expertise, effort, and other physical and financial resources), kept in good health, and appropriately ‘burdened’ at some critical time with some “message,” which they would then carry back ONLY to their own home loft. That would be a one-way trip, and they (and any message they carried) could NOT be sent to any other place. For these reasons, and a few more, pigeons have almost never been a tactically (nor strategically) practical method of message transmission in anything but a very static military situation.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Andi & All,

I hate to say it but the person you are corresponding with may have a point here. I think it's quite possible that many companies or individuals could be taking things into their own hands and setting the inhumane traps/poisons to save a buck or two. Now I'm not saying that this is right or any less important to the overall situation but perhaps not as many pest control companies are to blame for these acts of cruelty as we might think. This person certainly sounds like they aren't talking through a hole in their head.

Also, he mentioned a friend of his nearly dying from Histoplasmosis and I'm *assuming* it was related to pigeon droppings in his context. This disease is a fungal disease and it usually affects the lungs in people. Perhaps this person was already compromised in some way that it ended up having more severe consequences to him/her. Still, I don't think it's as common to get it from pigeon poop as he is saying. The fungus lives in the soil as well and you'd have to be around the dried poop a lot to get this disease. So in that regard, pigeons and their droppings aren't a likely source for most people.

Regarding his comments about pigeons helping in the war, I guess that is somewhat debatable and open to interpretation. I *believe* pigeons did a lot back then for the war efforts and certainly helped the allies gain an advantage.

Not to take the pest control's side by any means, but I think it's important to listen to what some of them might share and be open minded to get the facts so we are not all labled "nut jobs" or "Crazies". He/she brought up some valid points about PETA and some other organizations. I am tending to believe that the individuals of small companies or even larger ones are as equally responsible for the improper and cruel methods of pigeon control as the pest control companies themselves.

JMHO,


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## andinla

*10 starving pigeons*

released to freedom last night. Trapped inside a one way entrance trap with no food left for them. Not protected from the elements such as rain. One was so weak it couldn't get the energy to fly off right away with the others. We were caught and told to leave or the police would be called. I am filing animal cruelty charges on the gas station and subcontractor who set up the trap.

Andi


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## Anarrowescape

andi wot you do for these birds amazes me is there a website where you can e-mail regarding these traps i can ask a website i go on to post it there to help the situation of harmful trappings and control methods


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## BrianNAmy

Andi,

Go to the Urban Wildlife Society's web site. Contact the person there named Dave Roth (he's here in Phoenix). He rescues pigeons and campaigns for humane methods as well. The local and county govt's here have consulted with him many times about commercial pigeon control methods. He may be able to help give you some more info on dealing with them.


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## andinla

*Thank you*

I was actually thinking of doing that


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## phyll

Thank you, Andi, for saving these pigeons' lives. You truly are their guardian angel. 
With your dedication, you actually "make a BIG difference." May God bless you for all you do.

Phyll


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