# Feeding my 3 day old



## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Hello again everyone

Some more advive needed please I have been feeding my 3 day old pigeon until her crop is full, i have been syringe feeding her new baby bird formula to the back of her throat which she swallows herself as I am new to this is this ok or should I be inserting a tube down into her crop to syringe the food into, also she has only poop'd twice in the last 2 days which look normal not too wet or hard and her crop takes a long time to go down i.e I feed her this morning at 05.15 and at 08.00 her crop looks as full as it did sraight after her first feed, should I still feed her again like that? also she is in a box filled with straw and a towel with a 60 watt light above the box for heat reading around 85 to 95c should I replace this with a heat pad/matt to warm her from underneath as my brother has one for reptiles, I will be replacing the bulb with a ceramic one which I have in the garage so not to give off light.

Richard


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Richardm said:


> Hello again everyone
> 
> Some more advive needed please I have been feeding my 3 day old pigeon until her crop is full, i have been syringe feeding her new baby bird formula to the back of her throat which she swallows herself as I am new to this is this ok or should I be inserting a tube down into her crop to syringe the food into, also she has only poop'd twice in the last 2 days which look normal not too wet or hard and her crop takes a long time to go down i.e I feed her this morning at 05.15 and at 08.00 her crop looks as full as it did sraight after her first feed, should I still feed her again like that? also she is in a box filled with straw and a towel with a 60 watt light above the box for heat reading around 85 to 95c should I replace this with a heat pad/matt to warm her from underneath as my brother has one for reptiles, I will be replacing the bulb with a ceramic one which I have in the garage so not to give off light.
> 
> Richard


Hi Richard,

Please don't feed the baby anymore until the crop empties completely now. It sounds like there is a problem. Pooping only twice in 2 days is not normal. Try to massage the crop and see if you can get things moving inside. I would suggest giving her a small amount of water only but it's a bit risky when you don't know what you're doing and in case you get any down her wind pipe.

Tube feeding isn't necessary if this is working well and even if you wanted to, I don't think you'd be able to find a tube that would work on such a young/small baby.

I would replace the light bulb with a heating pad because light bulbs will dry out the area and it should be a little bit humid in the surroundings for the baby.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Richard, 



Why are you having to feed so young a Baby?

What happenned?



And...

What are you feeding them?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Hi Phil

Basically some kids pulled the nest down and one of the hathlings died and the other survived so i am looking after her as mum was long gone by then, have been given by my local pet store a baby bird food called Nature line, Avian Premium hand feed, baby bird. I think it is designed for Parrots but it was so late in the evening it was all i could get.

Her crop seems to be going down slowly after feeds but has only poop'd twice in 2 or 3 days, i'm concerned. I'm going out later to get a heat pad for her, would the reptile type heat pads be ok?

Cheers

Richard


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Try putting a drop of Apple Cider Vinegar in the formula, that may help with slow crop issues. 

Most types of heat is fine, as long as you can control the temp and can be set on low. Be sure to put a towel or a soft cloth between the baby and pad, and check it often to make sure it is warm not hot.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Try to massage the crop and see if you can get things moving inside


That is too dangerous, only last week we had a dove in the UK die when the rescuer massaged its crop to get the air out and it aspirated the crop contents.

Helen (Nooti) suggested giving it warm water to flush the crop with warm water. She also suggested using a catheter tube for feeding directly into the crop.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> That is too dangerous, only last week we had a dove in the UK die when the rescuer massaged its crop to get the air out and it aspirated the crop contents.
> 
> Helen (Nooti) suggested giving it warm water to flush the crop with warm water. She also suggested using a catheter tube for feeding directly into the crop.
> 
> Cynthia


Cynthia, I don't know how experienced Richardm is with all this. Perhaps you could provide more detailed information.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Richard

First off, it would be so helpful if you would continue to post in your original thread so members can keep up with the progress of your baby. A moderator did merge your second thread with the first so hopefully this new thread can be tacked on to that one as well.

I would not feed the baby anything for 3-4 hours because the crop does need to go down and it needs to begin pooping. Could you describe the syringe you're using and how far it goes down into the throat? We use a syringe with a cat nipple attached and it does go down past the air hole at the back of the throat.


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Hi Maggie

The syringe i'm using has a nozzle around 1/4 " long and i am placing it to the back of the throat but not attempting to go too deep as i do not want to hurt her or damage the crop, my main concern is that she is not pooping but her crop is reducing in size gradually. i have just come in from the local pet store with a heat matt and i will be placing that under a towel and removing the lamp.

I have given her a small drop of apple cider vinegar in her mix earlier around 3 to 4 hours ago but she has still not poop'd yet.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It appears we have threads by two separate individuals merged. Perhaps a Moderator can correct it.

Richard,
Try massaging the baby's bottom with a warm damp cloth to see if you can stimulate pooping.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

With the heating pad, sset the temperature on the lowest setting.


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Hi Charis

I took your advise and soaked a cotton pad in some warm water and massage her bottom and within a minute or two she poop'd, that's the first one in nearly a day, do you think it's worth continuing to add apple cider vinegar to her food to help.

Thank you Charis and everyone else for your kind advise

Richard


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Ummm, maybe now the cork is gone from the back end, the path will flow more freely  Charis must know a lot about poop -- she's a real estate agent and must get those boots out from time to time  

Keep up what you're doing. It sounds like things are doing better for the two of you.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Richardm said:


> Hi Charis
> 
> I took your advise and soaked a cotton pad in some warm water and massage her bottom and within a minute or two she poop'd, that's the first one in nearly a day, do you think it's worth continuing to add apple cider vinegar to her food to help.
> 
> ...


Continue with the ACV . I'm glad the baby is pooping. Pooping is good.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Ummm, maybe now the cork is gone from the back end, the path will flow more freely  Charis must know a lot about poop -- she's a real estate agent and must get those boots out from time to time
> 
> Keep up what you're doing. It sounds like things are doing better for the two of you.


Yes I do. 
You are very funny.


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## Jazicat (Oct 31, 2005)

I don't have any advice but wanted to wish you the best of luck with your baby.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Richard,

Parrot food should be okay for a baby pigeons but how thick is the mixture that you are giving? I usually use Kaytee Exact and when they are newly hatched it has to be very thin.

You have to be so careful when feeding liquids because it is all too easy for a pigeon to aspirate. If you are not tube feeding into the crop then it is safer to put a drop at a time in the very front of the lower beak, so the baby knows it is there and will swallow without aspirating.

In a few days it will be old enough to be fed by the "syringe and balloon" method. These are links to instructions on how to tube feed and how to feed using the syringe and balloon method.

Tube feeding video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU

Syringe and balloon instructions:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/165797594SYYRWL

Syringe and balloon video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bin7rhSLQss&mode=related&search=

The pigeons in the videos etc are a lot older than yours but the same priciple applies to babies. 

Originally Posted by cyro51 



> Helen (Nooti) suggested giving it warm water to flush the crop with warm water. She also suggested using a catheter tube for feeding directly into the crop.
> 
> ......
> 
> _Cynthia, I don't know how experienced Richardm is with all this. Perhaps you could provide more detailed information_.


When the crop is emptying slowly you dilute the contents by giving the pigeon warm water at intervals. That should help the crop empty.

Baby pigeons are too small to be fed with a thick tube like the ones used for parrots. A catheter tube can be used instead, Helen says that you can get one from a vet.


Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> That is too dangerous, only last week we had a dove in the UK die when the rescuer massaged its crop to get the air out and it aspirated the crop contents.
> 
> Helen (Nooti) suggested giving it warm water to flush the crop with warm water. She also suggested using a catheter tube for feeding directly into the crop.
> 
> Cynthia


Hello Cynthia, 

Thank you for correcting me and setting me straight on this. I would have assumed that massaging the crop gently might have helped, but I guess I was wrong in thinking this. I can see how this could potentially cause such a young chick to aspirate the contents of it's crop if done vigorously and the wrong way.

Richard, I hope I didn't throw you off your care but just wanted to offer some advice since you'd gone about 6 hours without a response to your post by the time I replied.

Best of luck with your little pigeon chick, I sure hope it will survive and thrive.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 



Well...


For any quite young 'Baby', the formula should be not only rather 'watery' indeed, but also never other than 'warm'...so, how admonishions about adminstering 'warm water' fit in to what inferred lack there-of a formula and in-between drinks may have had going for it as a matter of course, is unclear.

Normally one would offer "warm" Water or kindred solutions, be-tween meals anyway. Not merely as some manner of trying to correct already on-going mistakes.


Too, how one 'gently massage' a Baby's Crop, and the sensitivity and judgement about it one employs, is far more the matter THAN whether one does so or not...


Or, how one is creating poblems for the Baby in one's formula making, ingredients, preperations and adminstration of it to them, keeping the Baby themself "warm", is of course also very much important to the larger matter.


Typical of when canned 'powder' formula mixes are used, and prepaired and ( not usually well if at all ) pre-hydrated, a 'slug' or semi-dehydrated glob of 'formula' which has given off much of it's water once in the Crop, CAN sit in the Crop and comform softly to it's shape and be un-noticed by the care giver, even though it is not passing, and or is preventing or displaceing amounts of further foods, if not keeping them from passing, or by not passing, may start fermenting in only a day or so.

This likely could be avoided with better prepairations and adequate pre-hydration of the formula before feeding...as well as by adding additional ingredients to it, such as prudent amounts of ACV and jiuces or extracts of select kinds of Berrys.

I would definitely say to pre-hydrate any 'dry' ingredients, or the entire combined ingredients, for an hour by allowing 3/8ths or more clear Water to initially stand on top of the formula one has just added Water to...and AFTER an hour, THEN 'stirr'...do not stiff before it has sat an hour...and this will help...as will offering "tepid" Water ( ACV-Water or as may be, ) drinks between meals.


And, making sure the 'new' Baby is about 103 degrees thereabouts...not "90", not "92" or other not warm enough temperatures of oft' admonished worrys of over heating them.

If they are 'panting' they are over-warm.

Otherwise, their needed temp is a little more than ours is.



They need to be the 'right' temperature, or there will be problems, and some of these problems will manifect as slow Crops and digestive torpidity.



While I have never had any 'Air' swallowing Babys, I would imagine that if one merely oblige their Neck to be more or less extended straight, and up, and one opens their Beak, such Air as is in there would naturally come 'out'...and that it would do so far more safely then trying to coax it from massaging the Crop with their Neck bent and pulled 'in' and head 'down'.


It is very rare that any very young Baby is in fact so ill or injured that it is not interested to eat, or would refuse to be interested if correct gestures or invitations are made, once they are in fact thoroughly 'warm'.

Super soft opaque-clear Silicone or other soft 'rubber' Catheters are available in sizes ( of whose lengths one merely take a small 2 or 3 inch section to make a feeding outfit with a syringe, ) well suited not only for more or less new-born Pigeons, but also much smaller Birds...should one be confronting a situation where there is no choice but to tube feed one so young.

I have made feeding tubes less than one mm outer diamater for use with some two day old Humming Birds, and these worked very well. These Babys only eat bu having food put into their deep tiny Crops, so one has no other choice.

If one need to strain or sieve the formula, then that is what one does, for it to pass such 'small' tube or other as one has to use for the Baby in question.


Anyway...just those thoughts and observations...


Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Hi Guys

I fed the baby this morning at 05.00 and her crop seems to stay full for hours and hours, it's been about 4 hours since her last feed and her crop is still full so i'll give her some warm water shortly and wait a while befor another feed. 

She also done a small poop earlier as that has been a concern of mine too but i had to massage her bottom with a cotton pad and warm water to get her started.

I'm also weighing her and she is 10 to 11grams at 4 days old does this sound about right and how long befor her eyes open?

Speak to you all soon

Richard


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Richard,

This is a link to another site on hand rearing pigeons and doves, it suggests the proportion of formula that is used at different stages of development. Worth a read.

http://www.birdkeepinginaustralia.com/memberssection/articles/article38.pdf

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Typical of when canned 'powder' formula mixes are used, and prepaired and ( not usually well if at all ) pre-hydrated, a 'slug' or semi-dehydrated glob of 'formula' which has given off much of it's water once in the Crop, CAN sit in the Crop and comform softly to it's shape and be un-noticed by the care giver, even though it is not passing, and or is preventing or displaceing amounts of further foods, if not keeping them from passing, or by not passing, may start fermenting in only a day or so.
> 
> *This likely could be avoided with better prepairations and adequate pre-hydration of the formula before feeding...as well as by adding additional ingredients to it, such as prudent amounts of ACV and jiuces or extracts of select kinds of Berrys.*
> 
> I would definitely say to pre-hydrate any 'dry' ingredients, or the entire combined ingredients, for an hour by allowing 3/8ths or more clear Water to initially stand on top of the formula one has just added Water to...and AFTER an hour, THEN 'stirr'...do not stiff before it has sat an hour...and this will help...as will offering "tepid" Water ( ACV-Water or as may be, ) drinks between meals.



Hi Phil, 

I think I FINALLY get what you're saying here about the powdered formulas. They tend to be so finely ground and if not mixed well enough, then the powder sits and collects in a certain area. At least this is what I'm getting from your post and I can see this. The powder can be so fine that if it's not mixed EXTREMELY well, it will collect and clump together in a certain area and therefore create a crop stasis situation. Kind of like how white flour needs to be mixed VERY well with water to make gravy or it creates lumps, bumps and pockets of "hardness"? Least this is my thinking on this now.

You're right as well about temperatures and how very important they are with offering formula and keeping the chicks in a easy "digestive" condition. 

Great comments and suggestions, I enjoyed reading your post in this thread.


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Hi Everyone

I will take your advise on mixing the formula and letting it stand a while befor feeding, but could anyone clear up the temperature issue as i have my baby pigeon in a wooden box with straw at the bottom and a folded towel on top with a heating pad under the top layer of the towel, i am using the heat pad link to a thermostat control device which i can control the the heat with, i have it set on its max which is approximately 96c. It also has a sensor probe which i place on the towel to ensure it does not overheat as the pad gets very very hot if it is not connected to the stat.

Do i need to do any other form of heating such as ceramic heat lamps etc and do i need to cover the box in any way to keep the heat in as she is warmed from underneath but my be cold on her back as the box is open.

Wanted to clear this subject up as i think this may be causing her crop problems/digestion.

Richard


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Richard, I'm sorry to read the baby is still having crop problems. 

I don't think, from what you described, that heat is the problem now. Your set up seems to give her sufficient warmth. Could you take a picture of her box just so we can be sure? With our rescue babies, I place a heating pad on top of a folded towel, then another folded towel on top of the heating pad which is initially set on medium to get some warmth going. I use a large plastic container with another towel inside, around the perimeter and set a small container, like a margarine container inside the larger container. I shred paper towels or tissues to build up the small container to about 2/3 full, layer a few soft tissues on top, set the baby inside and lightly cover it with a tissue. I have always said it sounds like overkill but my babies stay warm and cozy and when they begin toddling around a bit, the larger box is a "catcher" in case they bail out of the smaller container.

For the formula, try this. Put 1 1/2 tsp. formula in a small container, add 3 1/4 tsp hot water (we just run the water from the faucet and our water temp is 140 degrees), add 1/2 tsp. plain yogurt and stir really well, to make sure the yogurt is blended in and the formula has no clumps - maybe a couple of minutes. The mixture is about the consistency of thin pancake batter. Then, set the container in a little larger container that has hot water in it and get the formula back to a warm temperature, stirring really well to make sure there are no hot spots. Test on your wrist, much like you would a baby's bottle. Try giving him 5 cc per feeding, every 2-3 hours, PROVIDED the crop is down.

The formula should be FRESH with each feeding.


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Do you think a Probiotic yogurt is best as her crop has its been full all day and not yet gone down. Also should i use a ceramic heat lamp above the box for additional heat?

Richard


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

No, I wouldn't use the ceramic heat lamp - only the heating pad.

I'm not sure what you mean by probiotic yogurt. We use "regular" plain yogurt and we also use a product called Benebac which is a probiotic. We use the yogurt for all feedings during the day except the last feeding when we leave off the yogurt and put Benebac in the formula instead. Probably not necessary but it is what we've been doing and seems to work.

I really am concerned about the crop not going down. Have you tried what was mentioned (I think) yesterday of giving it only water, with ACV added, for several hours to get some movement going in her digestive system?


For Phil - Phil, when I made my last post about the formula mixture, I had gone to the kitchen and actually mixed up a batch of formula so I could get it to the consistency that we feed babies. After I posted that, I read your post about letting it sit for an hour before giving it. I did that and could find no appreciative thickening from the time I mixed it initially. I'm going to try it later today with a regular formula mix like we give the fledglings and see what happens.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Maggie,

What formula do you use? The Kaytee Exact formula's instructions specify that any unused formula must be discarded immediately. I have often left the washing of dishes "till later" and have found that it spoils very soon. For that reason I would be concerned about feeding hour old Kaytee Exact to a nestling. Chick starter crumbs can be refrigerated and reused, but that separates rather than thickening when left.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, thank you for pointing that out. We use Kaytee Exact.

No, I absolutely DON'T carry over any formula. I mix it, feed it and dump it.

I am going back to my earlier post where I described how much formula, water, yogurt I use and make sure that is understood.

I mentioned the "test" I did of the formula I mixed up this morning in response to Phil's post where he advises letting the formula "sit" a couple of hours to prevent it thickening after it is fed to the baby.


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Hi Guys, 

Just to let you know, I checked on her this afternoon and her crop had not gone down which had been an issue for the last few days. As well as her not pooping she seemed to deteriorate. I had been giving her a week mix of acv to try and promote digestion but it didn't seem to be working. Also she seemed very slow on her development to have hardly grown in the last 4 days and have not gained any weight. I went to check on her earlier she was very inactive and weak and I have only managed to feed her twice as her crop was so full and i was advised not to feed her until the crop goes down fully. When i tried to feed her now she wouldn't even swallow and couldn't even hold her head up. Within a few minutes she passed away in my hands.

I don't know if everyone knows the full story of how I came to have her but she basically fell about 7 foot to the floor twice where kids had pulled the nest down. Would this have been an issue for her not being able to digest food and develop.

The egg had broken in perfect halves, is it likely the fall had broken the egg and she was actually premature as this was my first instinct when I first saw her on the ground and she still looked the same today as she did 4 days ago when i first brought her home.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Richard, I am deeply sorry this baby died. You have tried so hard to help her but I have been worried from the beginning that this may happen. Any time the crop doesn't go down as it should causes concern. It was nothing you did wrong - this happens to all of us from time to time.

You may be right about it being premature. Being a tiny baby, a 7 foot fall could have caused internal injuries and being premature just stacked the deck against her.

Again, I am really sorry. Thank you for caring for her.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear the baby died.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Your news is heartbreaking.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Bless her heart*

I'm so sorry this little one never got to fly with her little wings. 
I am so glad that you were there for her while she was here.
No matter the age, no matter how much or little time we have with them, each little life is precious and special.

Feather hugs from baby wings.


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## Richardm (Jun 15, 2007)

Thank you all

I miss her so much X


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry Richard. Handrearing from day one is very difficult and you had the additional problem of the baby not having hatched naturally.

Thank you for trying so hard to help her.

Cynthia


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