# Cancer in local pigeon population- anyone heard of this?



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Last week I posted about a pigeon with a huge, fast growing growth on its head that was looking like it was extremely sick. The pigeon disappeared and I presume it died, poor little girl.

So I've been keeping an eye on our local flock, and another pigeon has been getting very ill. It developed a huge, noticeable internal `bulge' in its crop region and was having a terrible struggle with swallowing food. This one knew me, it looks like one of the handsome males that was spinning circles for all the hens during the summer. He had lost a lot of condition, and this morning he walked right up to my feet while I was cleaning his water and putting out seed. He tried to eat, but couldn't get more than a few small seeds down; he was obviously in pain.

So I picked him up (he just stood still and let me) and called the vet. The nurse told me that both sick pigeons sound like they caught a viral cancer that has been affecting pigeons and other native birds. She said the only thing could do was to bring him in to be euthanased.

So I did it. When I took him to the nurse she told me he was starving and that the tumour seemed to have taken over his crop and spread to his lungs. I left him there to be put to sleep, but I feel so rotten. I have been sobbing and feeling such pain; I wish I could have helped in a better way than taking his life from him, you know?

The nurse is calling it a viral cancer, with no known cure or method for prevention. But one thing I've learned about vets is they tend to be dismissive of feral pigeons, and they also withhold information. 

Do you think anything can be done for the flock, or should I just accept that I am helpless in this situation?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Sounds a lot like _canker_, not _cancer_? I've never heard of pigeons getting cancer, but I'm no vet. Canker can spread like a wildfire if not treated. Spreading through the crop into other organs is likely. Most of the time you'll see it in the mouth and throat first but it can pop up just about anywhere. Eating and drinking after infected birds spreads it through the flock pretty quickly.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think it sounds like canker too. Very treatable.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Bella,

Whatever you do, do not take your dog or cat to this clinic. While it is true there are viruses that do cause cancer in humans, they are quite well known and in some cases treatable. There is the papilloma virus, for instance, but for anybody to diagnose any condition without even seeing it is really a stretch.

DO not take any more pigeons there to be killed; let them live their lives out.

If you want to get involved in this you are going to need some place to keep the sick birds while you watch them and care for them. Since you really do not know what is causing these problems, you need to observe and keep records of your observations. Several diseases mimic each other, so it is in the differences that you observe that you can determine what, if any, the common denominator might be.

For a start you will need a supply of antibiotic and antifungal. If you can start scouting around for antiviral medication, Tamiflu is cheap right now and easy to get. If you need help, come back to us.

Good Luck to you ..... and your flock.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps Charis and Becky,

When i posted about the other sick pigeon, members here said it looked and sounded like canker.

I did a google search for pigeon cancer, and I can't find any relevant search results at all. Nothing. You'd think if there was such a thing there would be information about it?

I realise that canker is treatable and I quizzed the vet nurse about a treatment for it or at least for the flock, but she outright denied it was canker. But when I was leaving the bird with her, she said something that made me feel a bit suspicious. She said that all pigeons have `a bit of cancer' and that trauma can set it off. That sounds more like canker to me, not cancer. 

I'm starting to get pretty disillusioned with vet nurses. The last vet nurse I spoke to worked for our local Avian specialist. She told me that there was no oral treatment whatsoever for mites or lice in birds, which is a blatant lie, as I later discovered. I rang her back and asked her why she lied to me, and she hung up on me.

I don't understand it; its as if vets have their own agenda when it comes to `pest species' and will say anything to the public to get them to fit in with their agenda. That's how it seems anyway. 

I think I'm going to find out what to do to prevent canker, and do it without their help. And next time I find a sick pigeon, I'm not going to have it killed just because the vet tells me to do it. Not unless I'm certain there's no other way to save it life.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Grimaldy said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> Whatever you do, do not take your dog or cat to this clinic. While it is true there are viruses that do cause cancer in humans, they are quite well known and in some cases treatable. There is the papilloma virus, for instance, but for anybody to diagnose any condition without even seeing it is really a stretch.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice. Wow I feel so terrible, like I totally did the wrong thing by my little guy. 

I'm going to get the meds you suggested, a bird cage, and see what I can do for my flock. I hate this! I feel like an idiot for trusting that vet nurse.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There is tons of information about it. I'll go find some links.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you think the nurse said canker instead of cancer?

Here's a link...
http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/ailments.htm


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here's another...

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/products/veterinary_medicines2.html


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Do you think the nurse said canker instead of cancer?
> 
> Here's a link...
> http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/ailments.htm


Charis, No, I quizzed her and made sure, because I know about canker and that its treatable. She used the term cancer.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the link Charis. I wish I'd looked down its throat to see what was there! The symptoms he displayed could have been canker, same with the other bird.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella...it isn't always in their throat. Canker can be internal too.There is usually a bad smell to the breath if they have canker.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Charis. From the links you provided, his symptoms fit with a very advanced case of `sour crop', but of course I don't know for sure. Thanks a lot for helping me, you're a doll as always


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Apple cider vinegar helps the imune system. This may not help, but isn't there some thing they can put in the water or on the feed that may help the rest of the birds?
Dave


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Bella, 

don't be too hard on the nurse, because we all have our failings. Maybe she wasn't lying to you, she may have been passing on info (correct or otherwise) which has become lodged in her system and takes a lot of effort to alter or remove.

We pick up some idea, and adjust other ideas to fit in. Think of how long the flat earth theory explained our view of the world? Think of the numerous religions there are, with most adherents thinking theirs is the one which truly connects the human to the divine. Usually it is the religion of their parents. One of my aunts approved of a female relative's marriage to someone of a different religion because "if he's a farmer, it will be okay." You couldn't be a "good-for-nothing" in the 1930s and 1940s and maintain a farm.

It is interesting to think sometimes of how those in the future may view our "enlightened" times as extremely primitive and barbaric. Eating a piece of meat or flesh may be something done in a university lab setting or a museum setting, perhaps as a curiosity item on a culinary reenactment of our times. Driving a car with an functional steering wheel (without autopilot), firing a rifle or gun, ditto. Perhaps manmade-looking fences between (widely-spaced) houses will be a rarity. Vehicular noise may be unheard of, other than the occasional swoosh. Nonhuman species will be treated differently.

Maybe things won't get better, but we know they will be different. We will still be making mistakes, because finite beings can never encompass the infinite.

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Well, I did a lightening quick google for "viral cancer" and birds, and there is such a thing.  I need to do a lot more reading about this, I have never heard of it before and I can find no reference to it in the book "Infectious diseases of wild birds". I doubt that the correct diagnosis could be made on the basis of a quick examination, but she might have seen other cases to base her diagnosis on.

The veterinary nurses at the surgery that I go to are incredibly compassionate, but probably know very little about birds. One telephoned me about a wood pigeon that had lost his tail and wanted to know "the prognosis" before she decided whether to pass it on for rehabilitation.

Cynthia


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Cynthia and Larry,

Thanks for offering your thoughts, they are comforting.

Cynthia, yes the nurse did base her decision to euthanase the pigeon on there being a viral cancer going around in our local feral pigeons at the moment, which she said was spreading to Australian native birds like magpies.

She said it was suspected to have been introduced by an exotic bird, and had no known cure nor prevention. She said they'd seen it manifest as wart like tumors, growths that ate away the eyes, and internal tumors. 

I got a huge scare when she told me all that, and I immediately felt that it was better to have it removed from the population ASAP for the greater good. 

I realise now she was just a nurse, not a vet, and she hadn't even seen the bird. But I guess if there really is a cancer going around that can wipe out natives as well as ferals then she said/did the right thing; there's a bigger picture to think about.

I think I'm going to stop beating myself up now. I'm not a vet and I'm not qualified to diagnose a sick bird. If the professionals I have to rely upon are negligent or wrong, its out of my hands.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If you find another bird that has symptoms that could be canker then ask if a swab can be examined under the microscope. Canker is caused by trichomonads , a protozoa that is easily identified with a microscope but which does not survive for long outside a host (so the swab must be fresh).

I took one of my early canker rescues to the vet, she diagnosed canker but put him to sleep and said that she would have done the same if it was a valuable racing pigeon (she was a nasty woman who said she didn't believe in trying to save the lives of animals that others were trying to kill...I wonder if she will feel the same if she is ever a victim of attempted murder?). Later I realised that there was a chance a rehabber could have nursed him back to health. 

Cynthia


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Cynthia, I'm sorry to hear about how that vet treated your first canker patient. I don't understand her attitude towards pigeons. 

Rehabbers here in Australia don't take on sick feral pigeons, so apart from entrusting their care to vets, there's not a lot of options for people who find sick pigeons and want to help. 

In situations like this, I wish I had the qualifications to diagnose and treat diseased birds. But I don't. I feel that a regular person should be able to go to a vet and get them to do their job, which is to save life. Theres noone else to turn to.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

You are 100% right Bella. Nobody is going to pay a vet $500 or more to help a feral pigeon but they will pay that to a vet to help their dog or cat. Veterinarians run a business, not a charity.

If you want to do something you can; after all nobody is going to do anything for the pigeons except someone who wants to try.

Oncoviruses, or viruses that cause cancer usually come from humans. ALthough there are some forms of cancer that affect birds, dogs and cats, nobody really knows what causes cancer. So that means that even if you try to help and fail, at least the last days of the bird's suffering can be lessened. You should also know that pigeons do recover from some forms of virus, with help and supportive care.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Cynthia, I'm sorry to hear about how that vet treated your first canker patient. I don't understand her attitude towards pigeons.
> 
> Rehabbers here in Australia don't take on sick feral pigeons, so apart from entrusting their care to vets, there's not a lot of options for people who find sick pigeons and want to help.
> 
> In situations like this, I wish I had the qualifications to diagnose and treat diseased birds. But I don't. I feel that a regular person should be able to go to a vet and get them to do their job, which is to save life. Theres noone else to turn to.


reading this make me grateful for the vet hosp I work at. they have a file that says wildlife, and anything that comes through the door gets treated no matter what, it is a service my vet does on her own dollar and time, we either release or it can be taken to a liscened rehabber for a long term placement. heck we even did acupuncture on a sea turtle one time and his neck got better and he was able to be released.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> You are 100% right Bella. Nobody is going to pay a vet $500 or more to help a feral pigeon but they will pay that to a vet to help their dog or cat. Veterinarians run a business, not a charity.
> 
> If you want to do something you can; after all nobody is going to do anything for the pigeons except someone who wants to try.
> 
> Oncoviruses, or viruses that cause cancer usually come from humans. ALthough there are some forms of cancer that affect birds, dogs and cats, nobody really knows what causes cancer. So that means that even if you try to help and fail, at least the last days of the bird's suffering can be lessened. You should also know that pigeons do recover from some forms of virus, with help and supportive care.


Actually paying $500. or more vet bill for a Feral Pigeon, has been done by members on this site.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

The point charis, is that it happens too infrequently for a vet to run an office hoping that one of these members will come in.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Grimaldy said:


> You are 100% right Bella. Nobody is going to pay a vet $500 or more to help a feral pigeon but they will pay that to a vet to help their dog or cat. Veterinarians run a business, not a charity.
> 
> If you want to do something you can; after all nobody is going to do anything for the pigeons except someone who wants to try.


The source of my frustration is not the price of vet fees. Spending $500 on it may have taken some explaining to my guy, but surely a real diagnosis (not just a guess) wouldn't cost that much. Why do I have to go to a forum for advice, when its supposed to be a vets job? Why do vets lie to me? 

What frustrates me is that euthanasia was the only option offered to me, and like a fool I believed it was the only option because vets are supposed to be professional animal healers. But after this discussion I'm left wondering if i was simply dismissed and deceived (again). I feel very foolish.

Just as a side note, I studied my first 2 years of vet science, and dropped out because being around animal suffering and death hurts me too much. I care SO much about animals, but I am not emotionally equipped for healing. I studied hard and long to become a vet student and complete my first 2 years of the degree, so you can imagine that i did not arrive at that self realization lightly.

So when I ask a vet for help, I really need their help because I can't do what they do, I can't do it emotionally. Calling a vet for help is not the same as asking for a charity service, its asking for them to provide a service that they are trained to provide, for a fee. I have no patience for vets who lie to me and who are butchers.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Look at it this way Bella, obviously you have made an investment in time and money in education with a view to helping animals. Pigeons are one group that suffer immensely simply because so few people are willing to help. The whole point of helping them is to alleviate suffering.

Veterinarians, whatever their shortcomings, are basically humans, but there is much that you can do without them. In fact you have a definite advantage over most people in that you have two years of animal science behind you. Let me suggest to you that you do not need vets as much as you may think you do; all it takes is for someone to roll up their sleeves and get started helping doing what they can with what they have. In time I am certain you will fing a caring vet who is willing to help with the problems that you can not deal with, but that takes time working in this particular vineyard. You would be surprised at the number of professionals who will help if asked. It just takes time to find them. In the meantime your flock could use your help.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> The point charis, is that it happens too infrequently for a vet to run an office hoping that one of these members will come in.


Most vets aren't expecting folks to walk in with an injured Pigeon, let alone a feral. My point is that there are folks that will extend themselves financially to do the right thing. 
I do agree with you that a vet isn't always needed, especially if one has experience with with Pigeons. For those folks that are inexperienced with Pigeons, establishing a relationship with a vet, that is willing to help for free or with reduced fees, is critical. Even with experience, there are many procedures that should only be done by a vet.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Nothing better to do with your time today charis, than trying to pick an argument with me?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Most vets aren't expecting folks to walk in with an injured Pigeon, let alone a feral. My point is that there are folks that will extend themselves financially to do the right thing.
> I do agree with you that a vet isn't always needed, especially if one has experience with with Pigeons. For those folks that are inexperienced with Pigeons, establishing a relationship with a vet, that is willing to help for free or with reduced fees, is critical. Even with experience, there are many procedures that should only be done by a vet.


Thats how I feel too Charis. This forum has given me a lot of confidence, especially you, actually, since you've popped up in every one of my threads and was there to help me out. There have been other people too, I am grateful to them too and frankly I have been astounded by the knowledge base this forum provides.

But, yeah, I don't feel qualified to deal with a lot of bird emergencies that I keep coming across. I don't feel very confident in my decisions due to lack of experience, and I'm scared of doing something like causing a virus to spread and wipe out all my local birds. 

I plan to get my carers license later in the year, but at the moment my time and financial resources are tied up with the orphan crow I'm trying to help. I wish there was more time, but its hard when you run a business at home and have to regularly feed a baby bird. The feedings are taking up to 45 minutes a time due to mobbing from other birds, and I do this 4 times day, succeeding only twice at best. 

I'll keep looking for a vet who is honest at least. I could really use the help.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It is possible to have a good relationship with a vet who will provide services for a rescue at an extreme discount BUT you've got to work at the relationship. My beloved Dr. Lee has helped me for more than a decade with my rescues .. does he do it for free .. sometimes but always at a HUGE discount. Why does he do this? For several reasons: First and foremost, he cares about the birds and animals, Secondly: he gets lots and lots of referrals from me that bring in clients that are of the real paying kind, Thirdly: He does the things I can't do, and I do the rest. You have to be willing and able to take over the "rehab" part of the job .. no vet can afford to take in every single wild or feral bird or animal and not only do the procedures but also nurse them back to health.

If you look long and hard enough for a vet to help you, you will find one, BUT always do your part .. that vet can't and shouldn't have to do everything for you and for free.

JMO .. but by golly, I am blessed to have my Dr. Lee!

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> It is possible to have a good relationship with a vet who will provide services for a rescue at an extreme discount BUT you've got to work at the relationship. My beloved Dr. Lee has helped me for more than a decade with my rescues .. does he do it for free .. sometimes but always at a HUGE discount. Why does he do this? For several reasons: First and foremost, he cares about the birds and animals, Secondly: he gets lots and lots of referrals from me that bring in clients that are of the real paying kind, Thirdly: He does the things I can't do, and I do the rest. You have to be willing and able to take over the "rehab" part of the job .. no vet can afford to take in every single wild or feral bird or animal and not only do the procedures but also nurse them back to health.
> 
> If you look long and hard enough for a vet to help you, you will find one, BUT always do your part .. that vet can't and shouldn't have to do everything for you and for free.
> 
> ...


That's the experience I have with Deb. I feel so fortunate to know her and so blessed for everything she has taught me through the last 20 years.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> It is possible to have a good relationship with a vet who will provide services for a rescue at an extreme discount BUT you've got to work at the relationship.
> 
> Terry


Terry, I agree with you; I don't have issues with paying a vet to do their job, I hope I didn't imply that.

I have issues with vets who withhold the truth from me and only offer euthanasia as `treatment' for wild birds (native or ferals), and refuse to offer a real diagnosis even for a fee.


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