# My pigeons are dying.



## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

November, Tyson, and Tundra have died. 
They would be puffed for a day, and then, in about 20 mins they stop walking, begin spewing clear, foul smelling liquids from their mouths, start having little wing spasms and shaking, and then right before they die, violently shake heads. They die and the liquid continues running, they become rigid in minutes. Their pupils dilate(?). They didn't seem to be eating anything but the peanuts in their mix, and clogged their crops full. The peanuts weren't being digested or broken down and were going bad inside them, I can see it in their vomit. There is also evidence of rats in the flight cage of the old loft (they flew in it during the day). I think the rats were poisoned (there _have_ been a few dead rats around recently).
Maid, Bliss, and Tenor survive. They are all affected. I've been giving vitamin k (I forget the name full name), pumped their crops, and cleaning their cages well. I did the difficult things with someone experienced. 
I feel like this isn't enough, as Tundra died today, and I need some other suggestions. Help.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

It could be the peanuts from your description. Some peanuts are going spoiled because of the conditions are kept by the seller, humidity and other contaminations.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Elizabeth...it's canker and sour crop. Please treat all the survivors with metronidazole and give them supportive care. I would also treat them with baytril, if you have it.
Do you know for a fact rat poison was put out? I really don't think this is poisoning.
Did you pump the crops on the birds that died?


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## Dunn (May 23, 2011)

have to check there water change it daily do you think it could be anything else i was haveing a prob with the same thing and could not figure it out my grandfather said for me to bleach mt water pans once a week and fresh water daily if not twice a day let just say my birds stop dies not saying this is what it is just saying this is what happen to me


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Your birds were most likely sick, not poisoned. Your birds wouldn't have gotten poisoned from poisoned rats. Sounds like canker or yeast or canker caused the crops to sour. The peanuts might have blocked the crop, causing sour crop. So many things they could have had going on. What was the size of the peanuts? Were they whole?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Well what would I do about sour crop?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear about this, its a lot of birds to lose in one go

IMO its unlikely anyone could say what is wrong exactly, based on those symptoms. Some viruses will cause those exact symptoms, as could some toxins, parasites, and other more common pigeon illnesses. Strange how they all got it at exactly the same time and it killed so quickly. 

I would firstly throw out the food you have there & replace it, especially the peanuts. The food is highly sus. at this point since all your birds were affected.

And I would get them on a combination treatment , something like what Charis suggested ie. metronodazole and some kind of antibiotic. Baytril is a good call because of the rat presence, but a sulfa antibiotic may also be agood option because of its action again coccida (ie you're covering another base). If any of them look to be improving, then I would worm them too, as some types of worms can cause the vomiting..some gape and lung worms especially. 

In this case, because of the vomiting, it would be wise to include Nilstat for possible yeast infection.

Do they have any kind of enteritis, or are the droppings good?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Not good droppings, very watery. Tundra was bleeding internally.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Any of these things could cause them to have loose bloody droppings.
Hexamitiasis, Salmonellosis, E.coli infection, Worm infestation, Coccidiosis


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

May I ask, What were the symptoms of Internal bleeding- did you see blood in the vomit, or blood in the droppings (or both)?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Kay sorry. Well,he had bloody poo. No one else though. So idk if it was internal bleeding or not. Sorry I'm not clear, it's 12:00 am, I'm tired and forget details


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Also, please remind me how to prepare metronidazole. I have everything ready but forget the amounts.
Oh and about your last post bella, they weren't vomiting, just Tenor, once. They don't really vomit, more like oh.. I don't know.. Gush?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

> They would be puffed for a day, and then, in about 20 mins they stop walking, begin spewing clear, foul smelling liquids from their mouths


No worries, I was referring to the statement you made above- I used the word vomiting instead of `spewing', but meant the same thing.

Just trying to get a clearer picture- was it all of them that `spewed' like you said in your first post, or just tenor, once?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

They all "spewed" (this is being overused) 
Only tenor vomited anything solid


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Ok thanks.

Metronidazole has a pretty big safety margin; you could give up to 50mg to an adult pigeon a day, though I treat my rescues with canker with about 12-25 mg personally (smaller birds, usually very ill so I am conservative).

What form /dose is your metronidazole?
.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

My metronidazole.. Hm... I think it's 5%suspension or something like that. I followed the instructions on a thread from long ago. I bought metroplex by seachem, And used two and a half scoops (maybe 1/8 of a teaspoon each) to 5mL of table syrup...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I also have two awaiting release (Echo-string foot, and Crisis-salmonella)Should I be keeping them separate?


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I also have two awaiting release (Echo-string foot, and Crisis-salmonella)Should I be keeping them separate?


Gawd this is awful .

I would definately seperate them , the reason I say this is because I've paid a heavy price for not doing so myself . cross-infection can happen easily .

I do wish that you have success with the suggested treatments , it could be worthwile treating the others too .

good luck !


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Alright, Thanks.
Yay! Maid has survived the night!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I think Bliss is dying


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

wow so sorry for your loss, i hope all turns around and goes the other way and everyone gets well soon..


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She's dying right now, I made her a towel nest and sat her to look out the window, I don't think she would want to be held.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She's gone.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

November-X-Scourge said:


> She's gone.


I am so sorry.
How many sick bird are left?
Did you start treating them?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Dima said:


> It could be the peanuts from your description. Some peanuts are going spoiled because of the conditions are kept by the seller, humidity and other contaminations.


I agree with Dima, sorry. I think it is a fungus with e-coli as a secondary, that could also be killing the rats not poison. Is there food left over in the loft the rats could be getting at ? You said the pigeons were only eating the peanuts. Sorry for your lose. 
Kurps


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

They don't go in the loft. And yes, I am treating the remainder. Two infected four dead. 
My release bands are yellow, I found a young pigeon with ugly hair on her foot, very tight, but not cutting her yet. She could hardly walk. I released her with a black band, to mourn the pigeons dead in the past three days.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Here is an article i posted not too long ago on here about mold and peanuts ;
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/this-is-more-dangerous-this-time-of-year-63476.html

Kurps

added; Pigeons and rats don't mix, rats are attracted to a food source not pigeons. GET RID of the food source !!!!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I've already ditched tht bag and bought a different one, although the rats never came in contact with the original bag. They ate the seeds outside.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I've already ditched tht bag and bought a different one, although the rats never came in contact with the original bag. They ate the seeds outside.


Just for a change, it would be good not to feed peanuts for a while. I know it's hard especially when they are excited too see you because you give them the treat. 
How many birds are left sick? Two? How many you have?
Can you tell the suspension you made? Just to make sure you have it right and how many times you give it?

I feel for you and understand why you released the string foot bird with the black band.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi November!
Can you give a recap on what meds you are giving, and are you seeing any improvement to droppings & behaviour yet on current meds?

Metronidazole and antibiotics will treat broadly for canker as well as ecoli & other bacterial infections. If you are not seeing any improvement within 48 hours, then your birds most likely have another problem and we have to move on to another treatment or broader treatment.

I mentioned earlier, to add Nilstat (Nystatin). Its harmless but may save your birds if they have fungus/mould or yeast issues. You can usually get it from a regular drug store. Symptoms I've seen personally of fungus infection include weakness, what you would call `spewing', sour crop, rapid death.

Without Veterinary tests and advice, what you want to be doing is treating broadly based on the symptoms and your best hunches, but be willing to alter the treatment if the birds continue deteriorate.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

@Dima
I've completely changed the food they eat, and they don't get excited to see me anymore, they just sit in their corners and drip. They make puddles and sit in them. Two sick birds, one possibly sick, and a healthy one. The suspension is something like 5% I guess. I give once every 12 hours.

@Bella
I'm only giving metronidazole, but I can start them on triple sulfa if you think it'll help.They've been on metro for 24 hours, Bliss died while on it. I cannot find Nystatin, other than in some sort of cream form.

I think Tenor has survived this long because he threw up the peanuts, Maid; my last "keeper" pigeon isn't looking good. She's also mourning. She was grooming her mate while he died.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't want to step on any toes but would like to add; if these birds aren't skinny don't feed them at all tomorrow to let what is in they're system pass. Flush it out lets say.
Kurps


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

November, Thanks for the info. 

Metronidazole is good start, but I think treating only for canker would be too narrow a treatment for an unknown illness, personally. If these were my birds, the first treatment I'd try is a sulfa antibiotic or Baytril, combined with metronidazole, with Nilstat. Then you've covered a few bases, not just one. You may not have time to just treat for one illness at a time.

Nystatin can be purchased at a drug store for humans, its called `Nilstat'. Its a yellow fluid and you give o.5 ml orally per day.

At the very least, these medicines will prevent secondary complications from arising, even if the main problem is a virus or some kind of food poisoning.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

They are skinny. In fact, too skinny; some of them. :/ This is so complicated >_< I wish this never happened and I still had my fluffy november to bite my fingers and pretty Tundra to cuddle.

Alright. I'll try to find some nilstuff and start them on sulfa. I just need _someone_ to survive.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

November, how long have they been ill? Do you get the impression that this is the tail end of a long illness that you didn't notice, or has it come on suddenly?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

It was very sudden. One moment November is bowing and cooing, next hour he's dying on the floor.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

So, just wondering, how do you think they got so thin, as it usually takes time to lose a lot of weight? Do you think its possible they had worms or another illness before this latest ailment suddenly hit?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> So, just wondering, how do you think they got so thin, as it usually takes time to lose a lot of weight? Do you think its possible they had worms or another illness before this latest ailment suddenly hit?


Been following this thread and don't want to step on any toes either.......I agree with everything Bella has been suggesting.
If they are very thin, then most likely this is the end result of worm infestation. Worms are a huge drain on their system, opening them up to everything else..(coccidia, canker, etc).
At this point, I would bite the bullet and keep them on metronidazole, AND give them a gentle dose of Pyrantal for worming (I wouldn't use anything else...the others (ivermectin, etc) would be too harsh in their condition), and start them on triple sulfa. Your loosing them quick, so I would be a little more aggressive in treatment.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The weight loss is more than likely that they have been sick for a while and it just went unnoticed. Unless you have reason to believe it's worms, then worming birds this sick could push them over the edge.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> The weight loss is more than likely that they have been sick for a while and it just went unnoticed. Unless you have reason to believe it's worms, then worming birds this sick could push them over the edge.


I agree. Hope your pigeons made it through the night. Are your birds drinking alot of water ? Have you ever siringe watered pigeons ? You should add a vitamin/electrolyte to they're diet.
Kurps


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Their water is "enriched" with vitamins and that sort of stuff. No they haven't been drinking a lot. I suppose I have syringe watered pigeons before.Theyre alive. Maid is a real trooper, surviving her foot being taken off and a rat attack, I really hope she'll pull through. Tenor too, I want him released.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

IF you don't know how to give them water by syringe, please don't. You can aspirate them. How was Maid attacked by a rat?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

It was a while ago. The rat (I later learned) attacked te head and tried to rip it off. She jammed her head in a protected corner behind the drinker, you can see a halo of exposed skin around her head and neck and over her ears where it attacked. Lots of blood. 

Also: AH! MAID IS SO THIN. I hadn't been able to feel just how thin, but I parted the feathers and her keel sticks out do far I could probably use it as a handle to pick her up. Omg. It must be worms, as she was always thin, but not like this. I fed her 20 peas to keep her up and runnin while I get a wormer (or whatever you think an solve this). This is like deadly thin. I don't know how she's alive. Her poop is watery and separated. It like some brown noodles in a puddle of water. I can't see worms in it, but what else could it be? She was like three of what she is now three days ago. If she lost any more weight she would disappear.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

First you have alot going on here. But the reason i asked about the amount of water intake is that can be another symptom. Feel the crop an see if it is full of water. Watery droppings as you stated the birds are sitting in puddles is a symptom and means the bird is taking in water. That one that was attacked definitely needs an anti-biotic now. Can you get these birds in the house away from the rats, maybe in basement ?
Kurps

added; and don't syringe water until you learn as Jay3 stated


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

The rat attacked a long time ago, Now they're just scars. She was medicated and recovered fine.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok , i see you are going with the sulfa and nilstat. Good Luck
Kurps


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> It was a while ago. The rat (I later learned) attacked te head and tried to rip it off. She jammed her head in a protected corner behind the drinker, you can see a halo of exposed skin around her head and neck and over her ears where it attacked. Lots of blood.
> 
> *Also: AH! MAID IS SO THIN. I hadn't been able to feel just how thin, but I parted the feathers and her keel sticks out do far I could probably use it as a handle to pick her up.* Omg. It must be worms, as she was always thin, but not like this. I fed her 20 peas to keep her up and runnin while I get a wormer (or whatever you think an solve this). This is like deadly thin. I don't know how she's alive. Her poop is watery and separated. It like some brown noodles in a puddle of water. I can't see worms in it, but what else could it be? She was like three of what she is now three days ago. If she lost any more weight she would disappear.



You wouldn't normally be seeing worms in the droppings even if they had them. The bird is most likely that thin from illness and not eating. She couldn't have been three times her size three days ago as it takes longer to go down that far. They have been off their feed for a while. Just treat with the meds and don't worm until they are stronger. If you worm very sick birds, you could kill them. Doesn't sound like worms when all of a sudden everyone is dying. Treat them with the sulfa.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> Been following this thread and don't want to step on any toes either.......I agree with everything Bella has been suggesting.
> If they are very thin, then most likely this is the end result of worm infestation. Worms are a huge drain on their system, opening them up to everything else..(coccidia, canker, etc).
> *At this point, I would bite the bullet and keep them on metronidazole, AND give them a gentle dose of Pyrantal for worming (I wouldn't use anything else...the others (ivermectin, etc) would be too harsh in their condition), and start them on triple sulfa. Your loosing them quick, so I would be a little more aggressive in treatment*.


I am still going to stand by my opinion. These birds are dying too fast. Worm infested birds will still eat but do not get any nourishment and loose weight rapidly. I would give them a half dose of pyrantal (and ONLY pyrantal..no other type of wormer). Pyrantal is very mild even on a sick bird. At this point it might be their only chance, and if they were my birds, I would do it.
Half dose would be 3-4 mg.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Is pill version of Pyrentel alright?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree, its not a bad idea to add the pyrantel, possibly not too risky compared to other wormers. Normally I don't worm very sick birds until they are on the mend, usually its around 1-2 weeks into treatment depending on how they are coming along.

But there have been times when the bird was so thin and not responding well to treatment with antibiotics and coccidia meds , and they were also regurgitating. So I added one half dose of moxidectin (not quite as safe as pyrantel, but I know it better as a wormer).

Its dangerous- a worm infestation bad enough to take a pigeon down can easily cause blockage of the intestines when they die off. But if you use a weak wormer in half dose (like pyrantel or moxidectin)to kill a few worms off early in treatment, and then a stronger wormer 1-2 weeks later to get the others, that has worked well for me.

Before I did any worming though, I would still give the other meds a day or so to work. If I saw no response whatsoever, I would think about worming. Its a stressful decision to make!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

November, i hadn't asked you before- have you had a chance to look into the back of the throats of any of your birds for yellowish growths that would indicate canker?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Waynette, I can see what you are saying, and it is a safer wormer, but just not great to worm very sick birds, unless you REALLY believe it is from worms. Giving a weak dose may be safer on a sick bird, but it will also help the worms to build a resistance to the drug. Paratyphoid can kill quickly. Birds can seem well one day and die the next. I would give the antibiotics a bit longer first. But that's just my opinion.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

So, I have the wormer.pill form. Should I give it or wait?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

How long have they been on the antibiotic, and any signs of improvement to droppings/behaviour?

Have you checked their throats for canker?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Sorry for not answering in my last post. No canker, that's the first thing I checked. No improvement, been on triple sulfa and metro for maybe two days?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Sorry for not answering in my last post. No canker, that's the first thing I checked. No improvement, been on triple sulfa and metro for maybe two days?


They were so sick. It could take longer, if at all.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Sorry for not answering in my last post. No canker, that's the first thing I checked. No improvement, been on triple sulfa and metro for maybe two days?


Thanks heaps for the info. 

You mentioned earlier that the droppings now look more like wet puddles with broken bits of fecal matter..so not enteritis exactly (slimy diahorrea which you see in bacterial infections and coccidia)? 

Would you say this represents a change to the droppings compared to the droppings prior to treatment? Just trying to double check all the facts.

PS. Waynette (Msfreebird) has a lot of experience with pyrantel. If you are going to use it, definitely talk to her about it- she knows all the right doses and safe ways to administer.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Does this happen during a worm infestation ? I never had a worm infestation bad enough to kill honestly. I know it happens from moldy feed. (quote from November)
Kurps



and then, in about 20 mins they stop walking, begin spewing clear, foul smelling liquids from their mouths, start having little wing spasms and shaking, and then right before they die, violently shake heads. They die and the liquid continues running, they become rigid in minutes


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

M Kurps said:


> Does this happen during a worm infestation ? I never had a worm infestation bad enough to kill honestly. I know it happens from moldy feed. (quote from November)
> Kurps
> 
> 
> ...




No, it doesn't.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

> and then, in about 20 mins they stop walking, begin spewing clear, foul smelling liquids from their mouths, start having little wing spasms and shaking, and then right before they die, violently shake heads. They die and the liquid continues running, they become rigid in minutes


Sadly, this is a standard sort of effect a pigeon has when it aspirates and is on its way out .
the more I read over the info, the more i am convinced that it is as Charis suggested earlier and is mainly Canker which has caused a blockage in the crop and not allowing food to pass, in turn causing sour crop & the liquid contents are then being repeled back & the bird aspirating.
Remember, Canker doesnt necessarily show in the throat or mouth, and may well have managed to get a hold from mouldy peanuts or seed.
There may well be worms also, and this would certainly cause the bird to become thin very quickly if whatever food that was getting through was not enough to sustain it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think canker is part of it. But could be more also. Doesn't sound like worms.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

> the more I read over the info, the more i am convinced that it is as Charis suggested earlier and is mainly Canker which has caused a blockage in the crop and not allowing food to pass, in turn causing sour crop & the liquid contents are then being repeled back & the bird aspirating.


Bob, Since they have already been on metronidazole & antibiotic for a couple of days, can you think of anything else to help? 

Novemeber is wondering now whether to worm or not. 

I often see canker and worm infestation together, so definitelya possibility, especially since canker isn't always visible, like you said.

PS. One thing that confuses me about Novemeber's birds is that in my experiences, Canker is a slower killer than what November has described here. ie The bird would be noticeably unwell for some time before the end. Maybe I just notice the signs of illness more than some because I treat so many sick birds.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

As Bella just stated;

PS. One thing that confuses me about Novemeber's birds is that in my experiences, Canker is a slower killer than what November has described here. ie The bird would be noticeably unwell for some time before the end. Maybe I just notice the signs of illness more than some because I treat so many sick birds.


Also the birds wouldn't all be dying at the same time IMO.
Kurps


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> Bob, Since they have already been on metronidazole & antibiotic for a couple of days, can you think of anything else to help?
> 
> Novemeber is wondering now whether to worm or not.
> 
> I often see canker and worm infestation together, so definitelya possibility, especially since canker isn't always visible, like you said.


I really cant think of anything else at the mo, short of trying to flush the crop first. If their crop is blocked, especially with mouldy food, the meds may well not be getting through the crop quick enough to act as the mould could possibly act like a sponge.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes I agree, Kurps. Things like worms & canker would take down the birds at different rates according to their immune systems and how much of the parasite had taken hold in the individual etc..the sudden death of all birds who seemed otherwise healthy is highly unusual for those illnesses. 

If there are problems like canker, worms, bacterial infection etc, its possible they are secondary problems. Stil very good idea to treat these IMo.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Quazar said:


> I really cant think of anything else at the mo, short of trying to flush the crop first. If their crop is blocked, especially with mouldy food, the meds may well not be getting through the crop quick enough to act as the mould could possibly act like a sponge.


Bob, Thats good advice. Is Nilstat able to reduce mould in the crop?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

This Works;
Try 2 Tablespoon ACV to half gallon water with vitamins and electrolytes and give the birds each 1 vitamin A pill morning and night. Give the ACV mixture 1 and a half hours after meds 6cc three times a day to start.
Kurps


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> Bob, Thats good advice. Is Nilstat able to reduce mould in the crop?


possibly, although it may take longer than normal depending on what the fluid content of the crop is like.
When using Nystatin orally for humans, they recommend no liquids for an hour either side for it to have maximum effect.
I know it would be pretty stressful for the bird especially when so ill, but flushing first before meds would give the meds a better chance to act


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Bob, Sorry to ask so many questions, but is there a way to flush the crop that you can recommend to novices, as I have no experience with it. It sounds like the right thing to do.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Crop flushing shouldn't be done by someone not experienced and who haven't been shown.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

I havent had any experiance of it myself, and I do agree with Jay3, however, at the rate things are going with these birds, and the speed they are going downhill since nothing else seems to be working I really dont think there is a lot to lose


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Bob. I've only ever had a vet do it for me personally, and he used a crop needle, which i think would be too dangerous to use for someone inexperienced.

There is another treatment for sour crop I've heard to work, using the medecine Metoclopramide. There's a member here, Eternal, who says she saved a lot of birds with sour crop using this. Have you heard of it?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

According to November the birds system is moving however slowly it may be as she stated;

. I don't know how she's alive. Her poop is watery and separated. It like some brown noodles in a puddle of water.

November hasn't been on to say if her birds crop is still blocked.
Kurps


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thats a good point. Things are getting through if there is fecal matter in the droppings.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

The survivors haven't been dripping, surprising, as when I pumped their crops they were the ones with the largest amounts of liquids. So I guess their crops aren't blocked?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> The survivors haven't been dripping, surprising, as when I pumped their crops they were the ones with the largest amounts of liquids. So I guess their crops aren't blocked?


Its probably more important to look at the droppings for fecal matter (ie food getting through) , than looking for dripping from the mouth. Sour crop & internal blockages don't always drip.

Can you tell us any more about their droppings today?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Also: what's ACV? And how much of a 120 mg pyrantel pill do I give?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Oh I didn't see your post! 
Droppings... I'll edit my findings into this post, will check now.
Compared to before, this is great!! Finally some substance to the poo. It like a normal "stool" just a bit green/yellower and heavily watered down.
Dont know if this has been mentioned, could it be adenovirus?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Apple Cider Vinegar organic with the mother, poplar brand here is Braggs.
Kurps


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Oh! I have Bragg! I'll give it right now! Do you think I should give separate from their "enriched" water, or is it safe to mix?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I would think that the urates would be yellow if it was adeno-virus from a liver shutdown.
I could be wrong.
Kurps


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Ok, This good news. If the medicines are working, then the droppings will continue to improve. You could hold off on worming for a few more days if they continue to improve like this.

Yes, it could be a virus like Adeno Virus, but no way of telling without Vet tests though. We have a strain of PMV virus where I live that also causes the exact symptoms you described. But there's nothing you can do for a virus other than what you are doing. You treating for all the common illnesses, which will boost the immune system of your birds, giving them more ability to fight off other possible problems.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

By enriched water do you mean a store bought water that has vitamins added and nothing else for human consumption ? Also do you have vitamin A ?
Kurps

added; I was talking about a chicken vitamin/electrolyte added with 2 tblspns ACV to half gallon. I would think adding the ACV to the enriched water would be ok if it is just vitamins in water but the electrolytes would be missing. You could get the chicken vitamin/electrolytes at a TSC store for like $4.99.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

No, not enriched for humans. It is especially for pigeons. I don't have vitamin A but I can buy some tommorow. There is a very nice company I know for that.
A detail that probably won't be important: November died under ten minutes after Tyson did.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

What is it like a quart ? Does it have electrolytes in it ?
Kurps

added; November just stay the course tonight as Bella stated the improving of the droppings means the meds are working, see what tomorrow holds. I would get vitamin A and add that for now. Braggs is always good to give your birds on a weekly basis. There are thread here you could look up. It only has to be human gel caps vitamin A, not the exspensive liquid form.
Kurps


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I have a worm suspect who isn't sick. I'll try to deworm him I think.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I have a worm suspect who isn't sick. I'll try to deworm him I think.


The dose of pyrantal for a HEALTHY bird is 6mg. I use the liquid form.
Your going to need to find someone good at math to break down that 125mg pill you have.....I'm terrible at math.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Oh my... So am I.
Condition hasn't improved today. The vitamin water also has minerals and has vitamin A. 
Also: the pigeons grit was too small and they were eating many peanuts, the grit couldn't break it down?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Discovery:
Maid's poo has substance. Tenor's is clear/white liquid.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I am assuming here that the vitamin enrichment is similar to pro vital water enrichment for pigeons, however that has electrolytes in it. Does your vitamin enriched water have electrolytes ? Can you make a half gallon with Bragg ACV 2tblspns in it or a quart with 1tblspn ?
Kurps


added; I figured that the vitamins you are giving your birds contained vitamin A. I was suggesting extra vitamin A.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'll check if it does. And (I have no idea what a gallon is (sorry!!) but I made a liter with one tbsp.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I'll check if it does. And (I have no idea what a gallon is (sorry!!) but I made a liter with one tbsp.


Thats good, liter is close to quart, 2 quarts to half gallon, 4 quarts to gallon.
kurps


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> The dose of pyrantal for a HEALTHY bird is 6mg. I use the liquid form.
> Your going to need to find someone good at math to break down that 125mg pill you have.....I'm terrible at math.



1/4 of that 125 mg pill would be 31.25 mg., which would be enough for 5 doses of that at 6 mg a dose. But shouldn't you get the weight of the bird?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I use "Spring Valley" Natural A Vitamin 8000 I.U. softgels. Ingredients; soybean oil, gelatin (non-bovine), glycerin, fish liver oil, water. Give 1 morning and 1 at night for 2 days at the most or less if droppings improve.
Kurps


Quote from foys;

E-Coli can be a harmless resident of the gut and yet is also capable of causing serious illnesses. The majority of E-Coli strains reside permanently and usually harmlessly in the pigeon's intestinal system. At times, the E-Coli can grow wildly, leading to illness. This wild growth may be the result of over-crowding, nest area being dirty with droppings, humidity and lack of vitamins (especially vitamin A).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Gee, that's interesting about the vitamin A.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Well.. I don't have a scale for her weight, but Crisis is a bit underweight and she's a squeaker


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi November. Does the vitamin enrichment contain calcium?

When you treat sick pigeons, you need to stop feeding grit or any calcium supplements, because they prevent the medicine from working.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's mainly the cyclines that require the calcium be pulled.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Maid is not looking good at all. Still skinny. Extra skinny. So skinny that at her keel she goes literally straight, vertical. I think she might die today. She's really weak, but I think I can't feed her until I worm her, because it won't make a difference otherwise. Unresponsive to touch, only will open her eyes if I pick her up.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> She's really weak, but I think I can't feed her until I worm her, because it won't make a difference otherwise. Unresponsive to touch, only will open her eyes if I pick her up.


November, I wouldn't worm a pigeon that is dying, especially if I didn't know it had worms. I would hand feed if she's not eating though...just small amounts, more often.

What medication is Maid on, and are you individual dosing or putting some medicine in water? Are you still giving grit & calcium in the vitamins?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> 1/4 of that 125 mg pill would be 31.25 mg., which would be enough for 5 doses of that at 6 mg a dose. But shouldn't you get the weight of the bird?


6mg is the dose for an average size bird. It has a wide safety margin and can be adjusted a little up or down. But, that is why I suggested *half* dose earlier, especially while they are so sick.



November-X-Scourge said:


> Well.. I don't have a scale for her weight, but Crisis is a bit underweight and she's a squeaker


I would not worm Maid, I think its too late for that now. If the others are still up and about and eating, I would give them about 3mg to see if they pass any worms. Unfortunately its very difficult with such a large mg pill. That's why I like the liquid, its more accurate.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'm not going to worm her until i get the ok, dont worry. Shes still on metro and sulfa.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She looks like she has PMV? I know a few things cause PMV symptoms, but here is her state:
Stumbles, can't really walk.
Aims for seeds and misses. 
No neck twist (yet)
Random head jabbing

I know that's not all the symptoms, but these are hers. It's just that the way she walks is just like scourge.... (pmv pij)
I've set her up in a donut and have been feeding peas. (she's just like scourge! Donut, metro, sulfa, peas, that feeling of her being dead the next time you look at her).


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

It may be me but i think she should stop the sulfa on maid. Sulfa is a very harsh med, IMO.
Kurps

added; how often are you feeding maid and what do her droppings look like ?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Droppings. I'll try to take a pic, honestly, they're not half bad. Tenor's are terrible though.
Food. Every few hours, 20 peas.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Take out the corn and hand feed her some regular feed. I had to do something and realized that you said she was missing her feed so the question about her eating on her own was stupid. I don't suppose you have pigeon pellets ?
Kurps

Added; I think the peas are running through her too fast and needs feed with more substance. It could be worms but I think she is too weak to worm.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

QUARATINE comes to mind when reading this thread. If you are a rehabber this is one important thing that they first learn . I would make sure you do it from now on.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> QUARATINE comes to mind when reading this thread. If you are a rehabber this is one important thing that they first learn . I would make sure you do it from now on.


Agreed, and hold off on any releases until you get things under control.
Kurps


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its hard to keep track of things, as it is still unclear how the medicines are being administered (ie in Water=less effective?) and whether the calcium in the grit and/or vitamins have been hindering the effectiveness of the medicines.

I wouldn't personally stop the sulfa antibiotic, since we saw some improvement in the droppings when the birds were put on it. I don't find it harsh as a medicine, insofar as I've never had a pigeon regurgitate it after being given up to a 2 x dose in emaciated, dying pigeons. It has saved a lot of dying wild pigeons in my area and I swear by it. 

A harsh medicine to me causes regurgitation at conservative or half doses in emaciated pigeons, for example regurgitation is something to watch for in most wormers, amprolium and canker meds such as metronidazole. So to me, Sulfa antibipotics are mild and safe, and also the broadest antibiotic for birds where no Vet tests have been performed. ie it treats many bacterial infections and will also act against coccidia- no other antibiotic does that.

If this hasn't been done already, the birds should be quarantined and given their medicines individually.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would agree with Bella to continue the antibiotic. I really don't think it's very harsh, and the bird need medications. Just stopping will gain you nothing. With birds this sick, they shoule definitely be treated individually.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Meds are given by syringe, orally.

I'm pretty sure my sweet Maid is dying. Hardly responsive, cant stand, has stopped eating (no, I just ran out of pellets).

I'll answer any other things soon, but I need to clean cages now.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Sorry for not answering in my last post. No canker, that's the first thing I checked. No improvement, been on triple sulfa and metro for maybe two days?


The birds are on TRIPLE SULFA Bella and Jay. That is why I say that, and I have seen sulfa meds really mess with young birds. November please tell us everything you are giving the birds so everyone is on the same page for these pigeons.
Kurps

added; I have a triple sulfa med that is only suppose to be administered for 3 days.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I was looking on the computer for a natural wormer that might be easier on Maid and what do you know i found it in an archive here of course 20cc may be too much at once maybe half to start;

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f107/natural-healing-10568.html

Kurps

anyone else have an input here.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Mrs Kurps,

I use Sulfa -3 which is the same ingredients as triple Sulfa. Its very safe & effective for young birds, I have treated dozens with it just this year (Squeaker age onwards). 

It can be used for weeks safely in very sick & emaciated birds. When using for coccidia treatment, at least ten days is recommended.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Meds are given by syringe, orally.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my sweet Maid is dying. Hardly responsive, cant stand, has stopped eating (no, I just ran out of pellets).
> 
> I'll answer any other things soon, but I need to clean cages now.


Thanks for the extra info, I appreciate it. I'm so sorry to hear about Maid. SO she has been receiving metronidazole and sulfa antibiotics? For how long and what doses? Can you give us an idea of the quality of dropping too, please? Just checking.

In my experiences, I have better outcomes when I focus on feeding and hydrating dying pigeons . You may need to change the antibiotic, but food & hydration is most important.

You can feed soaked dog kibble and cat kibble at this point, some people use purina puppy chow. These are high in protein and are easy to digest.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

First let me second that, i am sorry to here about Maid. Second Bella i am a guy not a Mrs and i am only here trying tohelp not argue. Third here is a quote from drugs.com;

SULMET works fast. If symptoms persist after using this preparation for 2 or 3 days, consult a veterinarian. Excessive dosage may cause toxic reactions. Follow dosage and administration instructions carefully. Hatchability of eggs laid during medication with sulfas, and for short periods thereafter, may be adversely affected.

Sulmet is a Sulfa drug.
Kurps


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

But the triple sulfa has been used on here many times with birds that were extremely sick, and it did help them. Sometimes you do need to give an antibiotic that is broad spectrum to cover many things. Giving something lesser isn't going to cure anything.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> But the triple sulfa has been used on here many times with birds that were extremely sick, and it did help them. Sometimes you do need to give an antibiotic that is broad spectrum to cover many things. Giving something lesser isn't going to cure anything.


I understand and you and Bella have seen alot on here by your amount of posts. I will step aside as they say too many cooks in the kitchen and really and honestly hope for the best for Maid, I know you ladies can do it.
Kurps


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sorry M Kurps, I don't like arguments either but you are wrong about Sulfa meds, and I don't believe that taking the birds off antibiotics when they are still sick is the right thing to do.

Sulfas are safe when used at the correct dosage, and are typically used for at least ten days for coccidia. I don't know what else to say, I have saved dozen of young birds with it and to me that is proof of safety and effectiveness.

The bottle of my Sulfa-3 says on the back `in case of coccidoisis treat for seven days'. 

Here is a link to Sulmet dosing instructions from Jedd's pigeon supplies, again 7 days is reccommended.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-617/SULMET-SOLUTION-12.5-pct--16oz-fdsh-1gal/Detail.bok

I was taught by members here to administer for 10-14 days in extremely sick ferals because of the severity of illness.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

We are honestly not trying to chase you away. Your posts are welcome. More opinions are helpful. Not everyone is always going to agree, that's all. These guys are so sick that somethings got to work. Worms aren't killing these guys like this. She may make it and she may not, but got to try.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. M Kurps, I just wanted to say, too, that I think your contributions and thoughts are valuable here, and I hope that disagreeing with you on just one thing doesn't make you feel otherwise! I'm having a n busy day here, so my posts are a bit short and to the point- but I really didn't want to alienate you. I'm sorry if I have made you feel wounded in any way...


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

HI November, You said Maid is dying. I would assume she didn't die. Right? You didn't say it's dead. Sorry, may i read and understand too literally.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

November, everyones really concerned about your pigeons and don't want anymore to die. That is why there is some differences of opinions. These ladies will do everything possible to save your pigeons. Ladies time to put your heads together and help this young lady. I'm fine and believe in you.
Kurps


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey people, This is not going to help the birds directly but after reading the discussion on the last page - page 8 that is, I learnt a lot and I think these sorts of debates are great for helping people learn a bit about the treatments they are using.

My opinion based on the posts is it would be best to keep the bird on the treatment but my opinion is not as well informed as any of yours!

November - Good luck with things!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

M Kurps said:


> November, everyones really concerned about your pigeons and don't want anymore to die. That is why there is some differences of opinions. These ladies will do everything possible to save your pigeons. Ladies time to put your heads together and help this young lady. I'm fine and believe in you.
> Kurps


I've been following this thread also and don't really have anymore to add, other than what I've suggested and I agree that meds should still be given.
I understand what you are saying about Sulmet. I have some but have never used it. I believe it is a different concentration than smz-tmp (triple sulfa) and Albon. The bottle I have is only dosed for chickens and turkeys and it does say to lower the dose after 2 days and treat no longer than 6 days. Albon and triple sulfa are typically given for at least 10 days. So I hope this clears up a little confusion.
But I do still feel worm infestation has a part in this. But unfortunately as time passes and they continue to go downward, the safely of worming them diminishes.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Maid died at around 2am today. Now my only sick one is Tenor, who still eats and drinks, but is about as skin y as maid. She is always puffy, but responsive, unlike maid. Maid didn't have enough energy to lift her head.
Tenor is hurt, one of her toes is coming off from string injury. It is attached by a hunk of live flesh, the kind that hurts to poke. Is there any way for me to get the toe off? It has dried, but won't fall.
Echo is an unnafected pigeon. I abducted her to save her toes, but wasn't able to, as she had made some bone like infection casing around the thread. Her last injured toe is falling. I'd like to let her go before she gets infected, but I'm not sure with that foot. There isn't anything I can do about the thread. Should I release her in the ever growing flock of my released pigeons (that I set up on top ad an old, small flock)? I monitor them.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Do not let go any pigeon, please. If they are not infected you can still care for their toes untill they fall ( do not try to cut the dry toe; bandage with gauze tape the bad toe along with the healthy one as it gives more comfort), and if they are are infected with no sign of sickness,and they are relased, they have no chance of survival with a sickness in the wild where no one would care for them.

Thanks


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree with Dima, I think Elisabeth's heart is in right place, but it would probably be a very bad idea to release any pigeon from your loft into the wild right now, without knowing what you're dealing with. Some diseases have an incubation period or they can be spread to other birds without that bird appearing sick. 

May I ask, Do you have the resources to get some Vet tests done?
How many birds are left in your care? 
Did they all eat the peanuts?
What is their condition (skinny like the others?)
Have you wormed any of the healthy ones (ever?)
Are they on any medication right now?

Finally, just a few more questions about Maid:

How long was she without food before her death, or did you decide to feed her in the end? How much food did she get/what type? Was she drinking or being hydrated? I only ask because occasionally the lack of suitable supportive care can result in the bird passing away, rather than the illness itself. Not saying this is the case, but its something to check in case another bird gets sick.

Thanks!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Sorry I didnt answer, I was camping.
No chance of getting to the vets.
I have three left, but only one infected.
They did all eat peanuts, but Im quite sure they've all been digested or vomited.
Only Tenor is thin, the rest are great weight, very healthy looking.
None of the ones I have have been with me too long, as only my keepers (like November, he'd been here for two years) died, so I've never wormed them.
Tenor is off meds after a week and a day on them, shes looking much better and I think she'll survive. 

Maid had eaten not long before she died.
She was drinking.
She was eating peas and corn.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you took pigeons camping instead of going to the vet? not sure I understand.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

whats not to understand, She went camping and was unable to get to the vet, Remember at 13 you are bound slightly by family commitments.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> whats not to understand, She went camping and was unable to get to the vet, Remember at 13 you are bound slightly by family commitments.


I did not understand if the pigeons went camping with or stayed home.. I was confused. thanks for the explanation. I did not know this person was 13. that does explain allot more.


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