# Pmv pigeon



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hello everybody,

I'm new here.

Last november we found a young PMV
pigeon on our balcony. He (well, I said "he" but we don't really know his sex...anyway, we named him Goliabianca) also had some nodules inside his mouth. Vet confirmed PMV and gave him medicine (marbocyl). We removed the nodules using betadine solution for a few weeks (the problem is now totally solved).

He is still alive: he can drink by himself but can't eat (we have to hand feed him).
He can't fly but walks around the room (even if sometimes he turns in circle). His neck doesn't fall on a side but sometimes he has head tilting.

He uses to watch at us with curiosity. He is so lovely..Sometimes, while we pass near him, he gets angry and says: "huu huu huu"..

We have others rescued pigeons so we are keeping him isolated in a warm room and we maintain scrupulous hygiene.

My vet told me he that will be contagious for all his life but I read on the forum that the virus runs its course within 6 weeks from infection. Can someone confirm me that after about 2/3 months Goliabianca won't spread the virus to others pigeons? I'd like to put him in a room with a gentle couple (can they share the same water?) because I think that this could help him to improve: what do you think about?

I'd like to help him stimulating his brain: what can I do? How can I help him?

Thanks a lot from me, Goliabianca and the others feathered guys of the gang!!!


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

Colombina said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I'm new here.
> 
> ...


Thank you for rescuing this bird.
He will not be contagious for his whole life.

An infected pigeon stops shedding the virus after 6 weeks. You can do 12 weeks just in case.

Yes you can put him other pigeons but only after he has stopped shedding the virus. Once the virus is gone your other birds are in no danger of getting it.

His nervous system will heal slowly by itself. I have a pigeon who was severely disabled by P.M.V. but after supportive care he can now eat and hangs out with my other pigeons.

To give him company of other pigeons would be a good idea. Just make sure the other pigeons don't pick on him. The healthy pigeons tend to pick on the disabled ones.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Agree with Dotty, by now he won't be contagious any more. Just give him time to recover. It took my PMV pigeon 7 months before she could fly again. The company of other pigeons will do him well. Hopefully when he sees them eating, he will start trying by himself. You can put the food in a deep seed dish, he will make a mess but might be able to figure out a way to feed himself.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks a lot Dotty and Marina B!

You gave me good news; I'm very happy to know that yours PMV pigeons are now better. I really hope too that Goliabianca's nervous system will slowly improve.

So I'm going to put him (probably at the end of February) in a room with a gentle couple (I have others rescued or disabled pigeons but this is my first PMV pigeon: I have a pigeon, Marshall, who had a nervous system disease but my vet said it was no PMV. Now he is ok, he is 98% like a normal pigeon, I post his photo) and I'm going to put the food in a deep feed dish.

Dotty, could you please tell me something about supportive care? I'm used to give vitamins and apple cider vinegar (twice a week). Do you think that I should give him grit or mineral salt too? Or it could be dangerous (because we have to hand feed him)?

Thank you again for your help!


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

Colombina said:


> Thanks a lot Dotty and Marina B!
> 
> You gave me good news; I'm very happy to know that yours PMV pigeons are now better. I really hope too Goliabianca's nervous system will slowly improve.
> 
> ...


Yes grit is fine and it helps pigeons with digestion. You can feed him by hand or use a deep dish. But he might miss while aiming so better in a deep dish. 

Supportive care-
Food- good pigeon mix with +calcium+ vitamins and grit.
For grit you put a separate dish filled with it. Don't mix with the food. 

Treats to help with weight - unsalted peanuts and some white bread

Probotics- give him a small amount of yogurt everyday. Garlic caps you can also give but not everyday. It helps with the birds health. Also continue with with giving him apple cinder. Apple cinder helps pigeons with ph of the crop.

Other info- You can put him on a heater or hot water bottle covered with a towel.

Don't worry too much =) ! Your bird will recover soon. He will start eating by herself and flapping his wings ( coordination will improve in a few months). I have 3 P.M.V birds and they all are happy right now. When I first got them they were weak but now they are fine.

You have a such a pretty pigeon . I have a bird with similar coloring but she is smaller and is blind in one eye. If you have any more questions feel free to ask =).


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks a lot for your advices!

I am used to give to all my pigeons grit, mineral salt, cuttlebone and apple cider vinegar but I have never heard about yogurt: that's a good idea! How can I give it to him? Using what? Can I give it to others pigeons? I have too two pigeons blind in one eye and one, Geordi, blind in both eyes (he was born blind: my vet gave him to me when he was a little baby. No one wanted him because of his blindness...).He is a little bit delicate: do you think yogurt can help him?
I have never used garlic: I read that someone put cloves of garlic in water but I have never tried it because I don't know quantity of water and garlic...do you know it? What do you mean with garlic caps?

Marshall thanks you!!!


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

Colombina said:


> Thanks a lot for your advices!
> 
> I use to give to all my pigeons grit, mineral salt, cuttlebone and apple cider vinegar but I have never heard about yogurt: that's a good idea! How can I give it to him? Using what? Can I give it to others pigeons? Me too, I have two pigeons blind in one eye and one, Geordi, blind in both eyes (he was born blind: my vet gave him to me when he was a little baby. No one wants him because of his blindness...).He is a little bit delicate: do you think yogurt can help him?
> I have never used garlic: I read that someone put cloves of garlic in water but I have never tried it because I don't know quantity of water and garlic...do you know it? What do you mean with garlic caps?
> ...


You just smear it on your finger and out some in their mouth. Yes you can give yogurt to other birds too. Preferably Plain greek yogurt.

Yes, yogurt helps in the production of healthy gut bacteria. It would be good for Geordi.

Or you can just probiotic powder for them.

Garlic capsules( small ones ). You can get some from a pharmacy. 

For garlic cloves-1 clove to 2.5 litres of water twice a week

You can also use garlic powder( make sure it only has garlic). You put a small amount in the food and spread it evenly.

Geordi is a lucky bird to have found a kind person like you =).


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks a lot!!! You are very kind 

So next week I will try garlic water (in the weekend I am used to give apple cider vinegar).
I also will try Greek yogurt: I will start giving it to Goliabianca and Geordi.

Geordi is a very sweet and lovely bird: I keep him always with me...I am lucky to have found him  Your birds are too lucky birds!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You have been given good advice. Let us know how he is doing as time goes by.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

You are all very kind.
Off course I will update you!!
Thanks again !!!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi! 

following Dotty's advice, today I have started to give yogurt to Goliabianca and Geordi: it's not too easy but I'm sure I will do better with time...!!!

About Goliabianca, I have thought it's better to give him step by step company of others pigeons (than suddenly put him and leave him in a room with them). So this is my idea: wait still 2/3 weeks from today (to give him time to recover) then start to put him 2/3 hours each day in a room with a gentle couple. I will stay in the room with him because I want to be sure that no one pick on him (I will be his bodyguard  ). What do you think about?

About his nervous system, there are no news but, I know, you told me it will heal slowly.

Yesterday I saw my vet: he told me again a PMV pigeon will be contagious for all his life because he has become a carrier. He said that there could be a virus latency. I don't know what to do: do you think I have to find a new vet for all my pigeons (but it's hard to find a vet who accept to visit and help pigeon)? Or maybe he has just no experience with PMV pigeon?

Thanks!!!


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

Colombina said:


> Hi!
> 
> following Dotty's advice, today I have started to give yogurt to Goliabianca and Geordi: it's not too easy but I'm sure I will do better with time...!!!
> 
> ...



That sounds like a good plan for Goliabianca =). Its been a total of 6 weeks for Goliabianca since he got P.M.V ? Forgive my memory!

Yes don't worry too much about healing it will happen it time =).

As it has been said after six weeks the birds stop shedding the virus. Its gone and it no longer infects other birds. Only thing that remain are the nervous systems effects that will slowly heal by itself.

Could be he just doesn't know about P.M.V. How is he on other things regarding treating pigeons ? Is his advice helpful and does he give proper treatment ? Is he a proper avian vet ? If he doesn't have much experience or the info is mostly wrong better to find another vet if you can. Most dog and cats vets don't know how to treat birds and pigeons.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi Dotty! 

I found him in November so, yes, its a total of 6 weeks since he got PMV.

My vet is a proper avian vet (he loves birds: he has some birds in his clinic too) even if he treats also dogs and cats. He is very good in surgery: he operated with success Apple my broken wing pigeon (she can't fly but she can do small flights: for exemple from the floor to the table) and others of my pigeons.

Well, I can say he has saved all my pigeons who needed surgery but talking about ill pigeons most of them died (with a very big pain for me as you can imagine). For that reason I am very worried about Goliabianca: probably my vet has no experience with PMV so its advice is no helpful (in fact he told me again to isolate Goliabianca in a different room for all his life because he has become a carrier).
Regarding proper treatment: talking about surgery yes; talking about illness I don't know..

I really don't know if it's better to find a new vet at least for ill pigeons. It's very hard to find a vet who wants to help pigeons and who has any experience with them (I had many bad experiences with vets: 3 years ago a vet refused to visit a pigeon, Cappuccino, who had nodules into his mouth and so couldn't eat. She asked me: "Is it a dove?" When I told "No, it's a pigeon" she said that she didn't want to help him. He died the day after. Every time I lost a pigeon my heart broke).

I wrote a lot: forgive me..

You are all very kind, thanks a lot ...


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

Colombina said:


> Hi Dotty!
> 
> I found him in November so, yes, its a total of 6 weeks since he got PMV.
> 
> ...


Doesn't sound like he is a bad vet. You can go to him regarding surgery.
But for illness treatment not such a good idea if he isn't that experienced regarding it.

Just wondering if he would analyze things like the poop to see if there is an illness(salmonella,e coli) or take swab from throat to see if its canker or pox ?

If he is willing to do that then that good. Treatment for illness is not has complicated as thought as long as medication is available. The hard part is the diagnosis cause you need to know what your treating for.

So keep his contact for surgery and see if if does proper lab tests to check for illness. 

I understand, I had the same such experience =(.

Vet charged me so much and gave wrong treatment then the bird died.Since then I don't trust many vets either. 

Such a shame ,someone who loves animals shouldn't shun one type of animal.
All living things should be treated with respect. I am sorry for your losses =(.

I am going to help you find medications you should have with you in case of illness =). I will send you a private message!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks a lot Dotty, I will send you a private message too. You are really very kind!

My vet doesn't have his own lab so he doesn't do any lab tests. Regarding diagnosis he just visits pigeons: for example he looks into their mouth/throat or touches their crop. What do you think about?

You are right, that's really a shame but unfortunately here lots of people (and vet too) hate pigeons. I have many bad experiences and stories to tell...

Thanks again!


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

Colombina said:


> Thanks a lot Dotty, I will send you a private message too. You are really very kind!
> 
> My vet doesn't have his own lab so he doesn't do any lab tests. For diagnosis cause he just visits pigeons: for example he looks in their mouth/throat or taste their crop. What do you think about?
> 
> ...



If its possible can you try to find a vet who does diagnostic tests in labs? One that is an also avian vet too ?

You just need to provide sample of the birds poop or the culture in the crop/throat. The vet will look through a microscope and identify what it is.

Keep your old vet too for surgery though.

Here is some advice when you go to vets. Always say the bird is your pet and never leave them alone with bird unless their trustworthy. Cause they tend to euthanize them.

Pigeons are just as sweet and smart as any other animal ! Its mostly the pest control's fault for saying pigeon spread diseases and are vermin. Those are all lies they say in order to make money. Sadly some people are gullible enough to believe it. You are more likely to get sick from a wild animal like cat/dog/racoon than a pigeon. 

Don't worry now things will be better =). Now you know what to have in case bird gets ill.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I don't know if it's possible to find an avian vet who has his own lab too (I had a lot of difficulty to find my current vet..).

Anyway, you are right, I am going to keep my current vet for surgery and I will try to find a new avian vet with its own lab for illness (I have a different vet for my cat: she has her own lab but she doesn't treat pigeons). I will update you.

I know, unfortunately many vet tendsto euthanize them...your advice is very good.

Yes, I think too all these lies are said to make money. But I think too these lies are told to divert attention from the real problems existing in our cities...

Yes, you are right, it's easier to get a disease from a cat, dog, etc. (my grandpa, who had pigeons, got an infection from his cat Zeus...but he never got a disease from pigeons).

Thanks again!


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

Colombina said:


> I don't know if it's possible to find an avian vet who has his own lab too (I had a lot of difficulty to find my actually vet..).
> 
> Anyway, you are right, I keep my actually vet for surgery and I will try to find a new avian vet with its own lab for illness (I have a different vet for my cat: she has her own lab but she doesn't treat pigeons). I will update you.
> 
> ...



Were is your location in Italy?

I will try to find some avian vets in your area.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Update about Goliabianca (I post his photo):

He has started to flap his wings but he couldn't get up from floor (just about 5 cm): it was a horizontal "flight" (like a train...).

Each time I open the door he tries to go out from his room: I think he is very curious so he would like to "escape" from his room! 

He drinks always a lot so his poop is watery: is it a normal thing for a PMV pigeon?

You are very kind Dotty! I'm Italian but now I live in France (in the south est of France, region PACA). In fact my current vet is french. I sent you a private message.

A member (I don't remember his name) sent me a private message: I couldn't read it because of loading problem. If he/she wants to contact me, please write me again.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Drinking a lot is a symptom of canker or Cocci.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

When I found him he had some nodules into his mouth: we removed them using betadine solution for about 2/3 weeks. My vet told me the problem was completely solved. Now I'm worried: maybe my vet was wrong?
Later when I will feed him I will look into his mouth.
Tomorrow I will send you a photo of his poop.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Drinking a lot is also quite common in PMV pigeons simply because the kidneys are affected by the virus. This can be permanent.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Colombina said:


> When I found him he had some nodules in his mouth: we removed them using betadine solution for about 2/3 weeks. My vet told me the problem was completely solved. Now I'm worried: maybe my vet was wrong?
> Later when I will feed him I will look in his mouth.
> Tomorrow I will send you a photo of his poop.


What did the vet tell you was causing the nodules in his mouth?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks John D. I remember I read that a PMV pigeon drinks more than a sane pigeon and that extra water pass right through him (so his poop is watery). Your post reassure me a little bit.

I post three photos of Goliabianca's poop (one is not a good photo because of the floor, sorry). I just want to say that his poop is not always the same: sometimes is more watery, sometimes less watery.

Anyway, I looked in his mouth/throat and I didn't see any yellow nodules; it doesn't smell wrong.


My vet told me maybe nodules have been passed by his parents.

So, what do you think about?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If nodules are past from parents, that means canker generally.
And you cannot always see canker in the throat.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

My vet told me nodules were just in his mouth (as I told you I removed them using a betadine solution): he touched his crop and didn't feel anything; he also looked inside him and didn't see anything (I hope he was no wrong...).

Goliabianca looks active (he walks a lot in his room, flaps his wings, etc).

Sorry if I'm too short in my answer but it's a terrible day (please read my new thread)


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Colombina said:


> My vet told me nodules were just in his mouth (as I told you I removed them using a betadine solution): he touched his crop and didn't feel anything; he also looked inside him and didn't see anything (I hope he was no wrong...).
> 
> Goliabianca looks active (he walks a lot in his room, flaps his wings, etc).
> 
> Sorry if I'm too short in my answer but it's a terrible day (please read my new thread)


Your vet can't know that. He isn't going to feel them in the crop. Canker is canker. The nodules are a symptom of the canker and mean that he should be treated for it.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

You are very kind Jay to be worried about Goliabianca, my PMV pigeon.

Each time I bring a pigeon to my vet for a visit he uses to touch his crop and his throat to feel nodules; he also uses to watch inside the bird (sorry but I don't remember the name of the tool he uses to look inside: anyway he inserts it inside the bird's throat) to look for yellow stuff.

Yes, I know, canker (in organ form) can also attack internal organs. 
Maybe my pigeon had just a pharyngeal form and now he is ok? He took for a period an antibiotic (my vet gave it for PMV): MARBOCYL P. He has finished his treatment about at the end of December 2016.

Anyway, he looks active and has normal weight.

What do you think about?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Canker is caused when the trich level goes up. Removing the nodules doesn't bring down the trich level which is causing it. You check for canker with a throat swab, not a scope. The bird can have canker without the throat nodules. He should have been treated with Metronidazole or something that treats canker. When you do see nodules, you treat for canker, you don't remove the nodules. Canker is probably the most common of pigeon disease, and also very easy to treat. You really need to look it up and read more on it. And on the other pigeon diseases. Then you will have a better idea of what to do when you see different symptoms. Do not just jump on one thing you read, because many things can present with some of the same symptoms. Your vet isn't very good on pigeons, but I give up. 
I'm only trying to help, but not going to argue with you. You keep asking for opinions, but then argue against them. Hope your bird gets better.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

It wasn't my intention to argue with you, I'm sorry about my language.

Of course, I really appreciate your help and your advices.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Antibiotics will not help PMV...it is a virus not a bacteria. 
Nodules in mouth would be canker. Excessive drinking is a symptom of canker. 
Removing seen nodules with betadine will not cure the problem. Needs proper meds to cure the birds entire system of it.
REcommend new vet, and listening to JAy


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi all, I just realized that I never updated my thread so I'm going to do that now. My experience could maybe help someone else.

Unfortunately Goliabianca never recovered in a proper way from his neurological symptoms. He still can't fly and can't eat on his own. He drinks and baths on his own.
Even if he can't interact in a normal way with the other pigeons (he doesn't have a wife) he lives with them without any problem. He is very friendly with us.

It's very important to not change his daily routine and habits because that is a source of stress. Just for example, replacing his bowl with a different one or the person who hand feed him with another member of the family disorients him.

He did not have canker or any other disease like some members suggested. Watery droppings and drinking too much water were related to PMV. After some months (I am sorry but I don't remember exactly after how many months) the problem was fixed (he drinks like any other pigeon and his poops are perfect 👌😁). During that period we monthly treated him with a very good probiotics supplement (it contains B-glucans and mannan oligosaccharides, I suggest to look for a product similar to it because it is very helpful) and a plant based supplement called oxycox. I think that they both helped him.
Here you can see the composition of the probiotics, I regularly give it to all my birds :









8.95? - Oceproven VIRBAC - Véto Products


OCEPROVEN VIRBAC is a food supplement to maintain the balance of the intestinal flora of the cage bird. Products-veto.com




www.produits-veto.com





Since we rescued him I have learned many things about PMV and generally about pigeons (also thanks to this wonderful community 😊!). Surely I still have a lot to learn! But I want to say that after Goliabianca we rescued other two PMV pigeons. I cared about them on my own (I gave them all the needed supportive care) and I did not give them any antibiotic (PMV is a virus, not a bacteria, so antibiotics are not helpful unless there is a secondary infection). At that time we trusted the vet and gave him an antibiotic treatment...Well, surely the vet is not an expert in PMV... He also told me that my pigeon Marshall didn't have PMV but honestly I think he had it. This year he had the symptoms back in a very severe way (they were worse than in 2014). For a whole week he had horrible seizures, they looked like epileptic fits.
I suggest to all members who are caring about a PMV pigeon to adopt him or to look for a family for him. My three PMV pigeons (Marshall included) all have a happy and normal pigeon life but Marshall easily gets in panic and sometimes lands in a bad way; Angus "Top Gun" sometimes "looks at stars" and starts to walk back and forth. I think that they would not survive for a long time in the wild...
Also life in the wild is obviously very stressful and stress could increase the risk of having the symptoms back.

As I talked about supplements I want to add that recently I found in an agricultural supply store excellent plant based products. The liver supplement (Avi digest) contains, among the ingredients, artichokes (even my mum is used to get a herbal tea containing artichokes and she is very satisfied by it). He did wonders with my pigeon Londo: she got a horrible infection (a viral or a bacterial infection) and she nearly died. She drank tons of water and had extremely watery droppings (her poops looked like a cat pee... ). Even when she started to eat again seeds the situation was the same. I tried that supplement and finally she stopped to drink like a crazy, her poops became normal and she also got her appetite back. I suggest to you all to look for something similar to it. You could regularly give it to all your birds and use it even in case of health issues.
I attach some pics even of the other supplement Avi cox: it helps the intestinal balance, I have tried it and it is very good too.

Last but not least, as I mentioned Betadine in the thread, I want to say that here I explained everything about povidone iodine method (over the years I have learned many things even about canker, experience is an excellent teacher as well as readings):









What to do if I *suspect* I have stopped canker...


Hi all. I have a bird which I thought might have canker. I gave her Ronsec for 10 days (i.e 5 tablets). Some symptoms disappeared or improved after about 5-7 days but for the rest of the treatment her condition did not change much so I stopped the treatment. It's been around 2 weeks since then...




www.pigeons.biz





That's all!


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