# Possible Diamond Dove with PMV 3 - Info needed



## DustinBoo (May 3, 2010)

Hello,

My name is Beth, and I know I prolly should go about introducing myself other places, but I was hoping some of you may be able to give me advice and support for my little diamond dove girl, Penny.

Brief history: I'm a certified vet tech who works for a mobile board certified avian vet. 

Penny was owned by one of our clients and showed start gazing symptoms on a Sunday, we saw her the next Tuesday. The owner did not want to treat, so I took her. She wasn't ready to be euthanized, and she came to live with me and my flock. 

She got better over the next week and was perching flying and even following my pet Starling around the house. Then about 2 weeks later she began to show symptoms again. Its been at least 3 weeks and she is star gazing, flipping over, sensitive to light and sound. 

I was tube feeding her 3-4 times daily, but she is holding her weight on her own eating millet, a veggie mix for my parrots and canaries, and a seed/pellet mix. I weigh her every morning. She is about 34 grams.

I am trying to find any info about what she may have and if I can save her. She was tested for PMV 1 and was negative, although I'm not sure if it was the pigeon strain. I am apprehensive to take more blood from her. 

She gets a dose of Metacam twice daily (an NSAID) to keep her more comfortable. She is living in a small carrier in the Starling's cage so they can be together. The Starling is taking care of Penny very seriously.

Any advise? How long should I let this go? The spark is still in Penny's eyes, and I don't think she is ready for death. I'll keep her going as long as she wants to fight.

Thanks for any info you may have.

~Beth


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Beth,

Thanks for stepping in and trying to help this little dove.

There are a few other infections that can cause star gazing in birds caused by bacterial and fungal infections and vitamin deficiencies. Since she tested negative for PMV, I would be strongly looking at treating her empirically with Trimethoprim/Sulfa and see how she responds. It's great that you are a vet tech, as this will make treatment options much more easily available for you.

Here is a link with some more info:

http://www.avianweb.com/stargazing.html

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Beth,

Do you know whether Penny would have been exposed to any pathogens while with her previous owner, thorugh shows, outdoor aviaries etc?

If she shared with other birds were any of them ill?

What are her poops and urates like?

This is a link to information on the different strains of PMV and the birds that they affect...although PMV-7 has been isolated from doves it is believed to be apathogenic. As far as I know PMV-3 affects turkeys. Different strains have different symptoms.

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

What you could try as an interim measure is giving her calcium supplements (I give liquid calcium for 5 days), vitamin supplements and probiotics. You could also boost her immune system with echinasia.



> The spark is still in Penny's eyes, and I don't think she is ready for death. I'll keep her going as long as she wants to fight.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Beth,


Oh yeah...stay with it...try different things as the above Posts mention.


Afflicted Birds can have any of various throes, for however long, and, then, recover...and or recover however so, with or without any legacy...it just takes time.

And...might not be a PMV...either.


Eeeeeesh, I sure admire your tube feeding a Diamond Dove...they are so tiny!!


Phil
Lv


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## DustinBoo (May 3, 2010)

Thanks all for responding.

I am honestly not sure if Penny was exposed to anything prior to me taking her. I know she was not shown, or taken anywhere with other doves. The previous owner had many parrots of various species, but all were in good health. I believe Penny ate mostly seed, not sure about veggies or pellets. I do know she lived with another Diamond Dove, a male. If he was having symptoms I'd know because she's call the vet and I for help.

Her droppings look normal to me. Dry, but not diarrhea by any stretch. She only had very wet stools one day last week when she only ate what I had tube fed her, thus leading to watery droppings.

I am happy to try antibiotics. I have injectable Doxycycline at home, but I can get some Trimethsulfa tomorrow, if its the drug of choice. Would gram stain or culture be recommended? I can do testing at cost, and although money isn't good right now, I'm happy to do whatever.

I try to get her sunlight when it's warm for some Vit. D and fresh air. I open up my back door and she can get a few sunbeams indirectly since the bright light isn't pleasant for her. I can get some calcium tomorrow. I have some electrolytes that I have been putting in her water.

I'm very new to doves and pigeons. I have been working with parrots and exotics for 15 years, but got little exposure to doves and pigeons. And although the vet I work for is a board certified avian vet, Penny's recovery and then downhill slide is puzzling.

Thanks again for helping me and Penny.
~Beth


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can buy avian vitamins with calcium and D.

Can you do a gram stain at work to check for a bacterial infection?


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## DustinBoo (May 3, 2010)

Yeah, I can do a gram stain. I don't work out of an office - it's the vet and I and we travel all over New England. Kinda like large animal vets that go to farms for cows and horses, but we just do birds. Our office/lab/surgery is where we are. But I can send out a gram stain to the lab we use.

Fecal, or choanal? or both?

Thanks,
~Beth


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Beth, I would probably go with the TMP/SMX as it is noted for being an effective antibiotic against salmonella (paratyphoid), while at the same time also noted as more gentle on a birds system, 60mg/kg PO/BID. The thing is sometimes you play to the odds with birds when you don't know exactly what you are treating for. Salmonella is a common infectious pathogen for Columbiformes, so it always has to come to mind when a possible unknown infection might be taking place.

I think running a gram stain on Penny would be a good idea, make sure that you collect the fecal samples before starting her on any antibiotics.



> Fecal, or choanal? or both?


If you can do both, that's what I would do.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Beth,


Vitamin deffeciency...among the Bs particularly, could maybe do some of what you have been seeing...


Ear Mites...

Inner Ear infection...

...could also...


Can you describe in more detail, the mannerisms of movements which have been abnormal?


Phil
Lv


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## DustinBoo (May 3, 2010)

I'll do my best to piece a timeline together.

In early March, Penny began head tilting, flipping over, losing balance, and circling. We diagnosed that she may be blind due to trauma or a stroke, or possibly a tumor.

I brought her home as the client did not want to treat, and within 2 days she began to move her head back into normal posture, first briefly then for longer periods until about a week later, she sat and moved normally. She had receive no treatment from me at this time beyond supportive care.

For about 3 weeks (?) she appeared normal, and was housed with a pet Starling. Penny sometimes followed the Starling around the house, playing on the playgyms and pecking in the couch. Eating and drinking was normal.

2-3 weeks ago, I noticed that she had started to throw her head back again for just a second, but long enough for me to notice. I had noticed some tail bobbing as if she had a respiratory issue and dosed her with some Doxycycline injectable at 0.4mg/100grams IM. She weight about 44 grams at the start and dropped about 10 grams in about a week and a half, was unable to perch, and had a head tilt most of the time. The respiratory issue seemed to resolve, but the head tilt became worse.

The end of April I was tube feeding her 3-4 times daily because she has lost about 12 grams, and giving metacam BID. She was living in a small carrier in the Starling's cage, still played with her mirror often, and cooed multiple times daily. Her head was mostly tilted back, and I'm not sure if she could see, but she was easily handled and seemed calm. 

In the past 4-5 days she has stopped playing, makes little noise, but is able to hold her weight without my feeding her at 32 grams. She has trouble sitting, and flips over at loud noises and bright light. She occasionally is able to move her head to normal to eat millet or seed/pellets. She panics when I handle her until she is firmly in my hand, and then she settles.

Feces has been normal except for last Wednesday when it was very watery, but I was on the road with her all day, and I don't think she ate much besides the handfeeding formula.

I think thats the best timeline I can give you. Whats strange is that she was normally for 3 weeks, then went downhill again. During her normal time she gained weight, flew around and seemed like a happy healthy girl. The week she began showing symptoms again was after a week when she probably stayed up too late/gotten up too early a few nights which may have added stress. 

I'm offering a seed mix of canary/finch seed, millet, canary/finch Zupreem and Roudybush pellets, and a vegetable mix that I cook and freeze that everyone but the Starling eats in the morning. Penny may have eaten some Starling food which is basically a cat food mixture with eggs and pellets. 

My flock is healthy: 3 small African parrots with no issues and annual blood panels, a European Starling that I found last May and had a full workup. 2 canaries that are rescues, but are in a different room. I have no new birds and haven't seen anything like this in the vet practice - a few chickens and a duck but mostly parrots, nothing neurologic that I could have taken home.

Any suggestions would be helpful. Unfortunately I had a death in my family in the middle of all this (human, not bird), so my timeline is blurry, so take all my estimates of time with a grain of salt.


thanks much,
~Beth


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

DustinBoo said:


> Yeah, I can do a gram stain. I don't work out of an office - it's the vet and I and we travel all over New England. Kinda like large animal vets that go to farms for cows and horses, but we just do birds. Our office/lab/surgery is where we are. But I can send out a gram stain to the lab we use.
> 
> Fecal, or choanal? or both?
> 
> ...



Both please.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Beth,


Doxy of course can easily occasion Candida issues...these, if typical, would progress fast and become Crop obturating, which obviously did not happen...though a milder chronic case, effecting the Crop, could see the Bird assume odd postures indeed...though falling over would not likely be among them, unless very weak.

Ear Mites, inner Ear problems/infection, could sure cause odd actions and motion issues...stress...

Was this Dove ever on any Gentomycin/Gentocyn or related Medicines do you know?


Tiny super-high metabolism Birds have differences in how they may manifest various conditions, from larger Birds...too, far as that goes.


That's about all I can think of for now.


A little Ground Dove I have here, was sick with Canker, then was pretty heavily Cat mauled...anyway...someone got her away from the Cat, brought her here...so far so good...has a very soft 'rubbery' Beak also, possibly from Vitamin Mineral defficiencies.

Independent of Meds, I set down one tiny Bowl of fairly heavy Vitamin Mineral Water...and, a tiny Bowl of plain Water. Over two days, she drank twice the amount of the Vitamine Mineral Water, than she did the Plain Water. I will mix up some more for her to have as an option as she pleases.


Might try that with yours.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Beth, please keep up her support with the hand feeding and get her started on the TMP/SMX. Also, since Nystatin is so well tolerated I would be prone to add a QD dose to eliminate, or deal with, with any possible yeast issues. I can't remember the site, but a number of years ago I read about a bird with star gazing issues that did not respond to AB treatment, but resolved after a course of Nystatin.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I think you might be thinking of "finch twirling disease". It was discussed on this forum before, in a thread where feral pigeon pointed out that Nystatin is an anti fungal that only acts by direct contact with the offending organism and that it cannnot affect viruses or bacteria.

The theory had been put forward in that particular thread that pigeons with stargazing and twirling are actually suffering from a yeast infection (I may be wrong, but I *think* someone thought it was a yeast infection of the inner ear) , although the cause of finch twirling disease had not been established.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Interesting...


Various Yeats produce various Alcohols, most of which are poisonous, all of which are intoxicating.


I have had Pigeons, old and young, who produced breath exhalations which smelled like Acetone.

A couple weeks on 'Nystatin', sometimes repeated a few times even, and it cleared up...but tended to be stubborn.

Usually, one can see they are not feeling well, when evincing this scent of exhailation.


While the scent is also associated with serious diabetic issues, I would not expect diabeteic issues to clear up with 'Nystatin', so, concluded these were not diabetet in nature.

I do not know of any odor to associate with Candida, or, Yeasts otherwise.

Though Fecal matter will often show a somewhat thin, light greyish or opaque white film however, not to be confused with Urates.


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## DustinBoo (May 3, 2010)

Thanks so much everyone. I'll bring home Nystatin today and start her tonight.

Her weigh in this morning showed she gained weight! 36 grams 

~Beth


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Gettin' to be a little 'Blimp'!


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## DustinBoo (May 3, 2010)

Hello folks,

I wanted to update you on Penny.

I had to euthanize her about 3 weeks ago. She had stopped playing weeks before that, hadn't coo'ed for over a month, and could eat some, but her weight was dropping despite tube feeding.

We ran tests, and tried antibiotics as well as anti-fungals. Nothing conclusive, and nothing helped. She was sick for almost 3 months before she just didn't want to keep going.

In the end, she just didn't want to be a bird anymore.

She died peacefully; the best euthanasia I have done, if that can be said for any euthanasia.

She is missed, by me and her Starling friend, but she is no longer in pain.

~Beth


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

So sorry you lost your baby. Diamond doves are the cutest. I have a few very tame ring neck doves if you would ever like a buddy for your starling.
Daryl


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