# Urgent Help needed w/poopy plug



## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I am the one with the little mourning dove who flew into the window, I have noticed today that this little girl has one very large poopy plug and her cloaca is fully extended and opened as far as it can open but she just can not poop the plug of food. I have tried very gently to remove as much as I can along with warm soaking bath and also tried to gently rub a little veggie oil on and around the opening, I am trying to push grit but she won't eat it. Please help me as the vet doesn't come in till Thursday. 

Thank You


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Naturegirl,


Just keep on with the gentle warm Water baths, soaks, massages with finger tips, and, make sure she gets to be "warm" and draft free to dry off at liesure.

Poops can sometimes be pretty hard to dissolve, but it should soften with enough opportunity from warm Water.

Veggie Oil sounds good to me also for this.

Was her vent area all clogged up previously also?

She might not have much of an appetite for now, and who knows how backed up her system is.

I suppose if you have a long snouted plastic syringe, you could irrigate this area, but use a Tablespoon of Salt in Warm water if you do, as plain Water might sting. But do not reach 'in' around the 'plug' as the tip could tear or puncture the tissues there and really make a serious injury to the already stretched out and delicate and likely inflamed area...so, just squirt the solution aiming for the edges instead...

Canker comes to mind as something to check for for this Bird...

Make her a draped box or something low so she can not launch off in panic and bean herself on the inside top...and make it plenty warm for her to dry off in...she is probably getting pretty delicate by now with this problem vexing her system.

Is she drinking at all?

She may be dehydrated if not...


Good luck...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sorry the bird is backed-up.

Are you sure this is not egg- binding related?

Have you given her a drop of olive oil a day, down the throat? That will lubricate and clean out the whole plumbing, so to speak.

How has her appetite been?


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

She is drinking fine, loves the water. I think this problem was helped out in the wild due to no water around, people around my area are cheap as hell and don't want to heat the birdbathes as I do. They need that water to help digest the seeds. This is defineately a poop problem, not an egg, she is young and not quit adult yet. Only 122 grams. Her appetite has dropped off alittle probably because she knows she can't force it out the other end. Will a drop of veggie oil be ok? I am concerned for her because this plug is about 1 inch long and 3/4 inch wide. Poor Baby.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't know about vegie oil, but olive oil cuts thru so much, not only in the digestion, but also when the crop is backed up.

Sounds like you need some intervention from an avian vet or rehabber soon, let me see if I can alert others.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Sounds good to me, I keep trying the warm bathes and trying to gently work some loose but not enough to make a big difference, you can tell she is hungry but doesn't want to eat knowing she can't pass anything.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Naturegirl,

If you find that the oils are not working, you may want to try pure glycerine. This should be available at any pharmacy. 

Glycerine is a natural, humectant (moisturizer) as well as lubricant. Oils sometimes work well as lubricants, but when something, say skin or hair, needs to be softened (re-moisturized) glycerine works very well. The glycerine will penetrate the plug and draw water to it to soften, where as the oils will just repel the water that is necessary to penetrate and soften the plug for it to be removed.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

ok I want to ask this..... is Glycerine the same as Mineral Oil? I have that. It says it is a Laxative. Poor baby. Her cloaca is swallen and very red.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jazaroo, is the glycerine applied topically or given orally?

Naturegirl, do try to find another vet tomorrow. The little dove can't go too long like she is. 

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Naturegirl,

No, it doesn't seem to be one in the same:

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/glycerin.html

I think you could try giving her more than one drop of olive oil, up to 1 ml syringed down the throat according to one of our members. 

I don't know if this would be ok, but I'll just put it out there and hopefully someone knowledgable can say yea or nea, but what about taking a small piece of a glycerin suppository and inserting?

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey fp, I have had one pigeon, years ago, that had a "thing" hanging partly in/out of the cloaca. The vet didn't know what it was but gently pressed all around the area and it popped out. It was a pretty large "plug" of something but after that the pij did good.

I have been googling to see if I could find anything and the only thing I saw that may work is to very gently lubricate around the cloaca with K-Y jelly. I would really be afraid to insert the glycerine suppository unless maybe it was melted down and just warm enough to gently be applied? Just don't know.

Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm kinda' doubting that oil down the front end is going to make it to the back end as the system is probably in stasis. You'd probably do better to swab oil with a Q-Tip on the inside of the cloaca. This post has a picture of the cloacal structure:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=81766&postcount=6

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi naturegirl,


I think Maggie's mention of her experience is well worth noteing...likely, by now, you have not much time left if this Dove is going to malke it...so...

Maybe try massaging or pressing somehow around the Vent to see if you might 'pop' that plug 'out'. Her peristalic functions might not be enough to overcome it's presence or form there...

Once it is out, you would have room to maybe do some additional Glycerine or Mineral Oil or as may be for whatever remaines still in there but further in...



Good luck...!

Now, have you reached an opinion as to whether this Dove has, or should be treated for, Canker/Trichomoniasis?

Or have you started treatment for it, just to be on the safe side with things?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi NatureGirl,

I am sorry I was not more specific. No, as mentioned glycerine and mineral oil are not the same. The oil will repel water (not what we want, we want moisture to enter the poopy thing and soften), while the glycerine is 100% water soluble and one of its uses is that it can act as a stool softener (as mentioned in glycerine suppositories), as it attracts and binds moisture (water).

I would dip a Q-Tip in the glycerine and swap it in/out of the cloaca if possible and directly onto any thing you see hanging. The glycerine will act to soften and hopeful gently release the poopy plug. Give it a little while to work, and I would reapply if it necessary.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi nature girl, everyone,

Maggie's suggestion is a good one, it certainly helps humans sometimes.
I didn't mean the whole suppository but a small piece, the problem w/that is 
I don't know how small a piece. I don' t know how you'd melt it, but that's worth a try as well w/the q-tip. That's what they're made for, they usually get
some results. 

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

From seeing inside her mouth there doesn't seem to be any white spots or anything she has a nice pink mouth inside. I hope she lasts till tomorrow, as I am going to try another vet up the street from me, she doesn't work the wildlife rehab but if I have to pay out of my own pocket I will... she is so sweet and still just over the age of a fledgling but not an adult yet. She is a very good patient considering someone is always playing with her bum. I will try to get a pic of her bum and her lower abdomen area. I will post it soon.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

naturegirl,

What do you think of the glicerine q-tip or??? Massage???

Also, do you happen to have any canker meds on hand?

Sometimes it doesn't set up shop in a visible area.

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

It's feathers are wet due to warm bathes, here is a pic to see what I am talking about


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

no I don't have any meds on hand.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Wow, that doesn't look too good. Do you have canker meds on hand?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I see, we posted @ the same time. I would get her on the canker meds, if the vet won't see you tomorrow, maybe try and talk her out of one or two pills of Flagyll/Metronidazole. You can try and get her to poop w/some of the suggestions, but she needs some meds.

Sorry she's not doing well.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can also get a $10 otoscope at a chain drugstore. They're not as bad as you'd think but you can use them up the cloaca to figure out a little better what your bird's problem is and how to handle it. I have to admit that it's tough for me to imagine a constipated dove or pigeon because I've never seen THAT to be one of their problems.

Anyhow, if I had one that was, I'd probably try to irrigate the plug with a special tube and syringe like giving an enema. The tube that you'd have to use would be bullet nosed and you could form one out of aquarium tubing and a match if you had to. But, you may have to study that picture real well and have a look with the otoscope to get your bearings. 

In any case, this is not something to wait around for nature to take its course too long or you'll end up with a dead bird.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Naturegirl,


I think, if it were me, I would be massaging around the Vent, and, pushing with my fingertips gently in around it, to see if I might both foften and mush-up and narrow the clog, and, begin to ease it out.

What with the various preceeding baths and soakings, and, what very likely is the urgent nature of this in so far as how long a Dove could withstand their eliminatatory and digestive system being in a stasis like this ( to say nothing of the increasing levels of toxicity and bacteria assailing the lineings of their intestine)...my choice, I am sure, would be to work that surround with my finger tips to loosen and narrow mush-up and expell the built up matter.

AND, to treat for Canker a.s.a.p.

I have never had a Pigeon or Dove with quite this severe a situation, but I have had some which were not far from it, usually, because previously before I found them, their vent Feathers had become clogged with poop ( Canker Birds ) and from there it sealed off their Vent so that the Vent itself became full, enlarged, stretched, inflamed and stuck with a semi-dry plug inside.

In my experience, the regimen I elected each time, have been the butt-baths in the Bathroom Sink, draining and refilling the warm water often, which were done with finger-tip massages iknitially to clean the surrounding Feathers, which of course is not an issue here with yours, but then also, of the distended, swollen, tender no doubt, orbular Vent area untill I was satisfied the plug was mushy and coming out and as far as I could manage, gone...


Good luck...!

Best wishes to you both..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This doesn't look at all like the pigeon I mentioned. His was more a round, yellow object. I'm also wondering if this could be trich or even a tumor. In either case I'd be reluctant to do too much probing around it for fear of bleeding. Hope you can get some help this morning.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi naturegirl,

Thought you might be interested in reading this link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8551&highlight=anal+canker

Anyway, I'm sincerely hoping that you can get your hands on some canker meds through the vet nearby you that you spoke of contacting today. Good luck.

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

*Dr.Update on Mourning Dove/wPoopy Plug*

I took him/her to the other vet down the street and she swore it had to be part of the pelvic bone, I told her It can't be as i showed her it was poop. So she took it to the back and with hemostats got the massive Poop Plug out. She was amazed at the size and showed me I know now why it couldn't poop. She put her on Baytril liquid for 10 days. She said there are no promises this won't happen again because if she does have a pelvic break or pelvic injury then things may be turned in toward each other and things may get backed up again, it cost me $56.00 and she wanted to due an x-ray at another $40.00, I even mentioned that if this bird can be saved that it would be going back to the wild and still no breaks with paying. My regular vet doesn't charge me for meds and office call this Dr. did. Kind of makes me a little angry that she charged me but what can I do? She also tore her little rectum a little getting it out says to keep an eye on it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The "bottom" line is that the bird is still alive. I always pay my vets full office visits but I have also acquired the tooling, procedures and library to be able to pull off a stunt like that and several others on my own to keep costs down. 

I kinda' wonder if the bird hitting the window is what ultimately caused that. Way back in my hangliding days, I had a friend who had a bad crash that stressed his spine. He told me that the doctor told him that trauma to the spine often induces constipation and that they had to deal with that for awhile after the injury. I had a bad fall once (not hangliding) that did the same kind of thing. Oh, well, we'll never know but you'd probably be well off to limit the nuts, seeing as how they don't provide much 'roughage'.

Pidgey


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Poor little thing*

 Naturegirl, that poor little dove. At least its out and lets hope the blockage doesn't occur again although without an xray I guess they can't see what is going on with the pelvic bone.

I would think that if you can keep her on the olive oil to keep things slippery then that may help especially as her cloaca or rectum sounds very sore ( but I am absolutely no pigeon expert so please don't take any notice of me because I expect others with tons of experience will advise you properly).

It is shame about vets charging. In the UK you can take a wild bird or animal to them and they are supposed to treat them free of charge but I have heard that often they will not do it - what they will do free of charge is euthanase. I'm not saying that is all vets as I am sure there are sympathetic vets like your other vet but I would have thought that vets would have had to take a hippocratic oath ( like doctors) to treat an animal ( doctors to treat human beings) wherever, whatever and not how much it is going to cost 

Vets aren't really poor people are they? I mean they should get paid well because they train for a long time and it is a very difficult and skilled job but you would think that they could treat a wild bird free. 

Well best of luck with her - I really hope she recovers OK.

All the best 

Tania x


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Naturegirl well done!

You got your poor dove by a major hurdle, without your intervention it's fate would already be sealed. I agree, it's a shame that vet did not give you a break, but your act of kindness in the paying of the vet bill will be returned many fold to you.

What Pidgey says about his friend makes sense, perhaps the initial injury has caused lost of some muscle function by swelling or pressure and the dove can not at the present time exert the required pressure to void properly.

I would still use the glycerine in around the cloaca, it will help soothe/heal the area and lubricate as well to help the bird void. Perhaps some others have some suggestions on how to keep the dropping as loose as possible to help avoid another episode until hopefully things heal up.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Naturegirl, 


Oh heck, I posted early this morning and now I see it never appeared!


Anyway, so glad to hear of the little Dove obtaining relief...

Sorry to hear this Vet is less than one might have hoped for in various ways.

Too, it sounds like they do not know Birds or Avian Anatomy, where, there is no 'pelvis' as such, as Mammals have, but rather a flattenned, fused, widening of the Spine of their lower back, which accomidates their Hip Sockets...so...yes, find another Vet, and if possible, one who has actual Avian affections, interests, knowledge and experience.

Too, we all keep harping on it, but DO please treat this Dove for Canker...

Lastly, I remember reading somewhere, that Olive Oil, Wheat Germ Oil, Flax Seed Oil, Cod Liver Oil are all benifical generally, and also, in good sized oral doses can help their elimination process to manage when sluggish or compromised otherwise. 

I think Castor Oil even has been used with success in this manner, just as traditional old fashioned Grandmas used to wish for all their Grand-kids now and then to have it...'To promote regularity'...


Good Seeds of course, whatever her favorites are...good smallish Grit...nice fresh Water with maybe some Vitamines added...and..."warmth" of course...


Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

We do use the oils Phil mentioned for impacted crop, so I guess there is no harm in using them in this little dove.
I would give her three times a day a syringe with a drop of oil in it, should keep her hydrated and regular, hopefully.
Sorry about the vet expenses, I know they hardly ever give you a break.

Reti


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

[COLOR="Blue THE VET COSTS REALLY HIT THE POCKET BOOK AS THERE IS LITTLE MONEY RIGHT NOW I GUESS IT JUST PRETTY MUCH UPSET ME THAT THEY DON"T GIVE YOU A BREAK EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW EVERYTHING COMES STRAIGHT OUT OF YOUR POCKET ANYWAYS> I WAS GOING TO ASK HER FOR A JOB TOO BUT AFTER SEEING HER ATTITUDE ON WILD BIRDS I DECLINED AND SAID I DON"T WANT TO WORK FOR A VET LIKE THAT WHO ONLY CARES ABOUT LINING HER POCKETS>HOPEFULL THE SMALL TEAR IN HER CLOACA WON"T HALT HER FROM GOING TO THE BATHROOM NOW>


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Some birds drink an excess of water and generally have fairly soft poops and some birds are very sparing on intake and have remarkably dry poops. You might seriously consider using a soft-tubed syringe and giving this bird a little more water than it normally wants to drink through the recovery period.

I have one vet who runs a large group of rehabbers and so he's able to 'farm out' (no pun intended--honest!) most of the operations for the wild animals that get brought in. But, truly, if I didn't have a day job and just wanted to keep an eagle-eye on my local feral flock and take in every pigeon that needed help, I'm sure I could run him completely out of business. I'm a rehabber and I know I've put in extraordinary amounts of time, money and supplies on some of the birds I've worked with. 

I don't want to play the devil's advocate here, but it is a completely different perspective when you're the one with the overhead costs to have to deal with. A vet can occasionally afford the luxury of pro bono work as long as it doesn't get to be too much and then there comes a point where you have to put some kind of a limit on it. With my own vets, I have never wanted to put them in a position of cringing every time they see me walk in the door so I've learned how to do so many of the simpler things myself.

Much earlier in this thread, it was getting obvious that what needed to be done was one of those things that none of us likes doing--invading the body of the patient. We don't even like thinking about it. Many of us have gotten past the fear of tube-feeding but even that's not easy. Some of us have gotten past the psychological barrier of simple suturing of an uncomplicated wound. But very few of us have worked up the intestinal fortitude to do what was a fairly straightforward procedure--reach in with forceps and simply dig the s*** out.

When you look at it that way, it is a bit aggravating to have to pay for what should naturally blast out of the back end of a bird with no restraint whatsoever, "butt" I think you should have some consideration for the poor vet who got the s***ty end of the deal!

Pidgey


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I do understand what you are saying honestly I do, I don't hardly ever go to this vet, I have only been to her this would make the 3rd time and the other two were with my own pet birds. This was nothing I have ever seen before and it definately needed a vets special touch, she still looks extended in the area and I am hoping it is just a little swallowen from this morning. I try every possible thing known to man and get on here and ask advice to figure things out before even calling a vet... I even helped this little girl with digging the sh*t out first that didn't bug me a bit I just didn't want to tear her and have her bleed to death in front of my eyes and not being able to stop it. The money in my eyes was well spent if it means she can fly one day again I was just kind of I guess disappointed that she wouldn't even cut me a break that is all.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I well understand, I was just trying to make it a bit lighter.

You're going to have to keep a close eye on her to make sure that it doesn't happen again for awhile. Is she pooping okay now?

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> You're going to have to keep a close eye on her to make sure that it doesn't happen again for awhile. Is she pooping okay now?
> Pidgey


I would put a drop of olive oil in the food daily, just for supportive care, until she is pooping normal. I have never seen it do any harm, but it should be used as remedy not forever.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tressa, do you think Castor Oil might work better than Olive Oil for helping a weakened system keep moveing...?

Naturegirl,

Is the Dove showing any interest in Seeds yet ( I know, it is kinda soon!)

Or, how's she doing?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Tressa, do you think Castor Oil might work better than Olive Oil for helping a weakened system keep moveing...?
> Phil
> Las Vegas



Phil,

I have never had first hand experience using castor oil, so I can't recommend it. But if anyone has used it..please let us know?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Naturegirl,

Glad to hear that the vet was able to help, and sorry to hear about your pocket book. It's too bad that they don't give price breaks for those who are trying to help the wild birds in order to release.

I would still treat for canker if you can get your hands on some Flagyl when your regular vet returns to cover all bases. It may or not be due to the injury from flying into the window, and it is a common problem. If your regular vet will give you meds for a wild bird w/out charging, seems that you have nothing to lose and the bird something to gain.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*please See Update On New Thread Titled Poopy Update*

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