# ts2 or 3 archangel crossed bird



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Looking at possibly buying this bird as a project bird to add toy stencil back into my archangels. Is this bird a ts1 or 2? The owner has several more like it for sale, including some that have more white on them then ts.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

when you say more white than ts do you mean white bars or checks, this is how the TS complex should look if all genes are present in the required state. I would go for the birds with the whitest TS expression as they will most likely carry more than one of the genes required, you could then select out the desired look.

If you take a bird like the one above you may not have the genes required to ever produce a nice white barred TS bird.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> when you say more white than ts do you mean white bars or checks, this is how the TS complex should look if all genes are present in the required state. I would go for the birds with the whitest TS expression as they will most likely carry more than one of the genes required, you could then select out the desired look.
> 
> If you take a bird like the one above you may not have the genes required to ever produce a nice white barred TS bird.


White barred would be nice. his may/may not be producing those. Im trying to produce a bird that has indigo laced feathers, or black and white laced feathers with ts. Similar to a check. I already have an indigo check. I had toy stencil at one time. I lost most of those birds from that line. 

Some of his look kind of like a check with ts. Ill see if I can get more pictures.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

What I also want to know is if this bird is a ts1 or 2


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

chinbunny said:


> Looking at possibly buying this bird as a project bird to add toy stencil back into my archangels. Is this bird a ts1 or 2? The owner has several more like it for sale, including some that have more white on them then ts.


if you can see this, this is what his flock carries. he also has an ash red with ts markings available, it looks like it could be a check. 

i believe this bird could be a sibling to the one above. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....489647427246.290862.737817246&type=1&theater


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

The bird pictured appears to be Ts but may not have what it takes to produce clean white pattern in the shield, as Evan posted. The bird in the link appears to be opal rather than toy stencil.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

tmaas said:


> The bird pictured appears to be Ts but may not have what it takes to produce clean white pattern in the shield, as Evan posted. The bird in the link appears to be opal rather than toy stencil.


I believe he bird in the link is the sibling to the bird in the picture. I have seen full pictures of her. She doesn't have a white, or washed out tail bar like some of the opals I have seen. 

the white pattern doesn't matter. It would be nice to produce it though. I just want to add ts back into my flock. so she would be a ts1 then? I have a cockbird bred down from a ts i had years ago, that I might pair her up with. He's a blue wing with indigo bars. The bird he was bred down from was a ts marked check with black and white laced feathers.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

hers a couple more pics of the sibling. if you can't get it to open let me know. he did offer to sell me this bird. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...817246.-2207520000.1388366409.&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...817246.-2207520000.1388366409.&type=3&theater


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

her color pattern kind of resembles the first bird on this site. http://www.falconlofts.com/toy-frill-stencil.htmledit never mind he said it was opal.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

THIS is another of his ts's. http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1401146_10152021395177247_1862828065_o.jpg


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

So back to the original question, are they ts1 or 2?


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

oh he also has a ts in ash red.


----------



## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Chinbunny it is difficult to identify which ts genes are present in your bird.

The following is from Paul Gibson's book _Genetics of Pigeons_:

The Ts2 gene produces a peculiar light grayish or oyster shell color in the C areas when homozygous.
The combination of Ts1 and homozygous Ts2 produces what I call a rootbeer coloration.
The ts3 gene in combination with Ts1 and Ts2 with all three homozygous produces the white in the C and So (sooty) markings.
In the presence of the ts3 genes Ts1,Ts1, Ts2 produces pinkish bronze C areas that molt to white in the first or second moult. With Ts1, Ts2, Ts2 it produces rootbeer color that molts white in the adult. With Ts1,Ts1, Ts2,Ts2 the birds can have white C markings in the nest.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

chinbunny said:


> So back to the original question, are they ts1 or 2?


If I could answer your question, I would, but I'm not familiar enough with Ts to determine it on phenotype. I'm not sure that anyone can decipher it without knowing a more complete geniology, because of various modifiers that can alter the purity of the white expression. The bronze involved with archangels further complicates the matter.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

tmaas said:


> If I could answer your question, I would, but I'm not familiar enough with Ts to determine it on phenotype. I'm not sure that anyone can decipher it without knowing a more complete geniology, because of various modifiers that can alter the purity of the white expression. The bronze involved with archangels further complicates the matter.


 its crossed with a saubian(sp?) if that helps any. From what I have read they carry ts?


----------

