# nunpie, nun to magpie crosslings



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi,

Finally I have my first crosslings from nun (male) over magpie (female)!
They have feathered out enough to see their pattern... 

I am trying to find out the genetics of as many pied patterns as I can get. Dominance is often known, but what pied genes are allelic to others much less so.

The first cross I did, albeit by accident is magpie male over capucin female (baldhead markings, eg white flights). From this I got that the white magpie wingshield behaves dominant. Also I got a lot of halfsiders, you may remember.
Magpie crossed to a solid (=not pied) bird would not give that result. Only white flights would express, and not the shield.
http://giesecke-world.homepage.t-online.de/vdtonline.html

This suggests to me that the magpie gene is allelic to the white flight gene of the capucin.

From what I found about the inheritance of the nun's white shield, I mean without white flights, is that it is incomplete dominant. A nun crossed to a solid bird would theoretically give a solid bird with white shoulders and a rosewing (few white feathers on the wingshield). I am afraid I have to repeat that cross to be sure.
Nuns also carry gazzi, which would be recessive.
Magpies have a white belly.

Now before I tell you what the crosslings look like I want you to spill your thoughts about what to expect from this cross


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Why are you not breeding to blue bar? If you want to understand the genes shouldn't all the initially crossings involve a non pied bird. Will be interesting to see what you come up with.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The dominance of the pied mutations is often known and that is what you would learn from such a cross to bluebar. But in order to find out if 2 different mutations are on the same gene (same locus or spot on the chromosome) you have to interbreed those 2 mutations. 
For instance if you have 2 recessive mutations that you suspect of being allelic (same gene) that would give you the following:
If not allelic => the crosslings would show neither of the mutations
If allelic => the crosslings could show the most dominant of the 2 mutations or an intermediate phenotype

Theoretically 2 mutations on the same gene could cancel each other out, but in my opinion that is not often the case.
So they are crude tools, but one has to start somewhere... 

I can reveal a little bit. The results point to all the genes/patterns I mentioned.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, but I know this is the second best place for pigeon geneticists. At least one of them did not respond...


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

give a little more time. I always enjoy seeing what comes out from such crosses and it is amazing how little we know about the white/pied genes in pigeons considering how long they have been bred!


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

OK, will do


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I didn't catch that in the original post, now I see it. I understand what you are doing just missed one thing originally. I was tired and in bed at 1 AM and I clumsily read over your post. I apologize for doing that.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi Henk,

From what I know:

1. "Magpie white shield + white flights" is not an alelle of white flights. It is a sum of two different traits: white flights (incomplete dominant) and white shields (recessive). I know, in presence of white flights, white shields acts like incomplete dominant but without white flights (like in a cross with a wild-type bird for this trait - completey colored flights) it is recessive. Michael Spadoni called this trait (white shields) "bishop wings" (bw) and I think this name is a proper name.
White belly of Magpies is a different trait and it is incomplete dominant.

2. Nun's white shield is a recessive trait too. In fact, Nun = Gazzi + Nun's white shields. A few years ago I called this trait "Nuns' white shields" (nws) but now I think the white shields of Nuns is a sum of two different traits, both recessive: the first is like white saddle of Swallows and the second is like white shields of Magpies (see above).

I hope these help you.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> I didn't catch that in the original post, now I see it. I understand what you are doing just missed one thing originally. I was tired and in bed at 1 AM and I clumsily read over your post. I apologize for doing that.


No need to. I probably should clarify a lot more than that...


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi Dina,

@1 Very interesting! Did he (or you) succeed in producing a white shield only (without white flights) pigeon from a magpie then?
The white flight gene should be homozygous for the (heterozygous) white shield to express.

@2 These findings are not in contrast to what I found.

What did I find?

The crosslings are exactly like a nun except for added white flights. The wing is completely white.

In my logic that would confirm Dina's hypothesis.
Also that gazzi and white belly would have to be allelic since I don't have recessive white in my magpies. There are magpie breeds that throw all white offspring (berlin thumbler), white belly would be allelic to recessive white too.

I have trouble digesting that one gene would help to express a second recessive gene but I guess they are operating in each others neighborhood.
I would have even more trouble swallowing that a not allelic white belly gene would do the same for the gazzi... 

Any thoughts welcome


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

i cant wait for the picture. interesting.
Im really want to see and im as a visual learner, picture can really help me understand. 
Im also at the moment try to do a experiment myself but it will be awesome if i could see your experimentation.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi henk

I had a pair of english carriers which were both pied and they produced a self brown (spread) and a self black (spread) also self white (rec white) I thought it was interesting that two pied birds produce non pieds


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

What pattern were they?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

like these


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

two of my rec whites have a couple of coloured feathers on thier rump. does that mean they are not rec white?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

thepigeonkey said:


> like these


I am baffled


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Hello Henk,

Young bred this year from a dilute blue white-flighted hen and black white-flighted mix-tail cock have been, a black saddle with coloured tail, a blue bar saddle with coloured tail, a black oddside with white tail, a self-coloured blue bar and a white-flighted dark tail, dark-headed, reduced blue bar. The saddles and oddsides have predominantly white heads, unlike their parents.

Amongst the grandparents and great-grandparents there has been one baldhead marked bird and one self-coloured bird, all the others have been variously marked pied, i.e. white-flights, coloured tail coloured head; white flights mixed tail and white head markings.

The breeding loft these birds were bred in contains six pairs, the box fronts are half open so there is the potential for illigitimacy.

Photographs of the oldest three youngsters:


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

that is very interesting thepigeonkey. All your birds look very healthy and wow who could of guess what they will turn out like.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

indigobob, what do you mean by saddled. Including white flights? white shoulders?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> indigobob, what do you mean by saddled. Including white flights? white shoulders?


White flights, white secondaries, white shoulders/shield with the scapular feathers being coloured, forming a heart-shaped "saddle" of coloured feathers......well, that's my interpretation of a saddle-marking


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

thepigeonkey said:


> Hi henk
> 
> I had a pair of english carriers which were both pied and they produced a self brown (spread) and a self black (spread) also self white (rec white) I thought it was interesting that two pied birds produce non pieds


So the type of pied that the carriers have must be dominant if two pied birds can breed a none pied. Or there is something else in the mix effecting the phenotype in the non pied spread offspring meaning that the pied areas are not showing through but may still be in the genotype.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi, finally some pictures

















This one is a pure nun:









Could it simply be 3 alleles at the white flight gene?
whiteflight
magpie white wing
whiteshield


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

No comment on the pictures?


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Surprised there has not been more comment yet. They look like they have the nun pied markings with the exception that they have the white flights too.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

There are multiple genes that cause white flights (at least 3 - more according to some sources). There are dominants, partial dominants and recessives.

The pure nun that show white flights could either be caused by the nun marking going too far and reaching the 'hand' (that holds the flights) or a recessive whiteflight gene which in homozygous state causes some or all of the flights to be white when homozyous .

Similarly I think that the magpie marking has a completely dominant wite flight gene involved, which causes all flights to be white (even when only heterozygous).

Similarly the nun marking (if it is indeed one unit and not a combination) seems to be dominant aswell.

It is impossible to tell whether the magpie marking is dominant or not here, since the white of the nun marking completely covers the coloured areas of the magpie marking. This is why pulling apart the white markings of most breeds is so difficult. All nuns could possibly carry the magpie marking (without the separate white flights) and no-one would know, since it is covered completely by the nun marking.

Mating these birds to solid coloured birds would give us a better idea of the individual genes and once that is sorted, only then will we really be able to understand the interactions between these genes.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The problem is that these crosses have been done, but badly documented.
I should verify the crosses to solid.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Documentation and replication are important aspects of scientific research, as is the ability to design and execute proper tests or experiments.

If the crosses have been done, but were badly documented or cannot be recreated (in order for the conclusions to be verified), then those crosses were done in vain, and do not contibute to the field of pigeon genetics in a meaningful way. It is often also the case that there are different genes that can cause the same expression. If this is the case, one oten has to do one's own testing to see which of the genes are responsible for the phenotype seen in one's own flock.

The white flights phenotype is a good example of this (as is many of the white / pied phenotypes seen in pigeons). On most genetics websites only a single dominant gene is claimed to be responsible for white flights. This is simply not the whole story, since there are multiple genes that can cause white flights. In my homer stock I have found at least two different mechanisms for creating white flights, one dominant and one recessive (both present in a single white flight cock I started with).


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> The white flights phenotype is a good example of this (as is many of the white / pied phenotypes seen in pigeons). On most genetics websites only a single dominant gene is claimed to be responsible for white flights. This is simply not the whole story, since there are multiple genes that can cause white flights. In my homer stock I have found at least two different mechanisms for creating white flights, one dominant and one recessive (both present in a single white flight cock I started with).


I would just like to add that i was given a bird at a young age from someone who he said was a NY flying flight, it had zero white flights. It then sprung it tail up once it was weaned and i thought it was a orential roller mix because of that. The person who gave it to me randomly menetioned that he had orenital rollers and when i told him that i thought it was mixed he didnt refute me.The bird also have 13 tail feathers like orientals, tail up, flights down, but has a longer flight looking beak. So long story short although i can not with certainity conclude what happen it does appear that the breed "New York Flying Flight" carries a recessive white flight gene. I will not be making any crosses myself though to verify. Also, I figure that a breed that must all carry white flights wouldnt have an dominant gene that wasnt solidified. I been meaning to start a thread to discuss such white flights because i would think a breed known for it white flights would have better markings than say saddles. But they seem to have to worse of all ive seen. To me it appears differents and acts different than the bald head, white flights, white tail phenotype.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Print Tippler said:


> I would just like to add that i was given a bird at a young age from someone who he said was a NY flying flight, it had zero white flights. It then sprung it tail up once it was weaned and i thought it was a orential roller mix because of that. The person who gave it to me randomly menetioned that he had orenital rollers and when i told him that i thought it was mixed he didnt refute me.The bird also have 13 tail feathers like orientals, tail up, flights down, but has a longer flight looking beak. So long story short although i can not with certainity conclude what happen it does appear that the breed "New York Flying Flight" carries a recessive white flight gene. I will not be making any crosses myself though to verify. Also, I figure that a breed that must all carry white flights wouldnt have an dominant gene that wasnt solidified. I been meaning to start a thread to discuss such white flights because i would think a breed known for it white flights would have better markings than say saddles. But they seem to have to worse of all ive seen. To me it appears differents and acts different than the bald head, white flights, white tail phenotype.


If I understand what I have read about white flights correctly, it seems tht some breeds who have white flights have the dominant kind and some the recessive, some even both (as in homers).

The [co-]dominant white flight in hetero state normally causes only a few white flights, usually on the outside of the wing (the mokee breed for instance carries this dominant white flight gene - and is selected for only two white flights on both wings).

The recessive white flight gene causes all primaries to be white but is completely recessive and cannot be picked up in split birds. This gene is probably found in many breeds that have a requirement of all flights to be white, but need not be fixed if other pied genes (like magpie marked) are also present.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well, what now going to get into breeding is solid blacks, duns, reds and yellows, and browns. I would love to make sense of all this. It doesnt make any sense to me. They all vary to what appears so randomly from birds with 3x3 to 10x10 and everything inbetween. I happily have one 10x10 i got for a friend who doesnt want a new bird because he loft keeps breaking out in sickness. It was a blue check that i bought for him but it looks like im going to breed it now. My question is can you build up to 10x10 without having it start with. I will be writing down all my breedings to see what will happen. Then there is also the question of the hald pied white flights. Do you know of those? Where the feather is colored half white half color but on a solid non grizzled bird. I have one of those if i need to obtain a picture.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I have one spread bird that has some white flights, some black and one that consistently moults out to have white on the one side of the vein. I believe this to be a form of a dominant pied grnr (and not related to white flight in any way) since this bird shows some other white (I will have to look at him again to be sure where) and was bred from a pied black (a couple of white flights and some white feathers on the head and vent).

It is very easy to strart too many projects when doing white flight research (or any research into pied mutations). I personally try to sell / give away most of my pied (splash) birds, and only keep white flights that I can predict, otherwise I lose focus and end up with too many pied test crosses. My focus is on breeding rare colored homer combinations (working on arch-bronze, dilute spread brown indigo, andalusian grizzle and a few others at the moment) and as a side project I am creating something like a short beaked arcangel bronze 'barb' type pigeon breed - the breed will ultimately also have dilute, almond and spread in their makeup, maybe recessive white flights too, if I can succesfully transfer it from a homer without adding too much size. I would also love to have ice in them as well, maybe from Damascenes, and toy and frill stencil from blondinettes. (There I go again. I will have to double my loft size and feed and medicine budget.)

PS: You can get 10x10 if your birds are carrying the recessive white flight gene. I did it (that's how I figured out the recessive white flight thing in the first place). I bred a 10x9 (only the outer feather on one wing is coloured) from 2 birds that have no white flights (and in fact no white in them at all).


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Just found out that the white belly of both magpie and capucin is recessive and the white flights of the capucin too. That could mean that recessive and dominant white flight are allelic.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Just found out that the white belly of both magpie and capucin is recessive and the white flights of the capucin too. That could mean that recessive and dominant white flight are allelic.


It isn't impossible that they are allelic, but to proove that you would have quite an extensive breeding programme to be statistically certain.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes.
But given the observation that whiteshield behaves dominant when 2 copies of whiteflight are present, it would be strange that those copies would be on a different locus/gene.
The whiteshield behaves recessive if one copy of the magpie white flight gene is present (eg cross archangel * magpie, they have partial white flights ONLY).
Of course other mechanisms could explain a recessive behaviour of the same whiteflight gene/allele (magpie vs capucin).


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

All these accidental crosses, I don't have to do any thinking anymore... 
Bear with me.
If magpie whitewing (shield+flights) simply were an allele of the white flight gene, and nun whiteshield were an allele of the same white flight gene. This would explain my results too without the need for a strange epistatic effect (conditional dominance?)***.
Now if the capucin's white flights were due to a recessive white flight allele of yet the same gene then what would a nun crossed to a capucin look like... 

I don't really think this is the case, but I should exclude this theory.

The other thing I have to do is try to produce a whiteshield out of magpie and a not-pied pigeon (archangel). If the above is true then that should never happen.

*** recessive witeshield behaves dominant when 2 copies of white flight are present


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> All these accidental crosses, I don't have to do any thinking anymore...
> Bear with me.
> If magpie whitewing (shield+flights) simply were an allele of the white flight gene, and nun whiteshield were an allele of the same white flight gene. This would explain my results too without the need for a strange epistatic effect (conditional dominance?)***.
> Now if the capucin's white flights were due to a recessive white flight allele of yet the same gene then what would a nun crossed to a capucin look like...
> ...


Since there is no simple answer, and all the above theories might be right. Testing to wilt type (non-pied) would be the only possible way to know for sure.

In my opinion 'conditional dominance' (which is pretty much just a synergistic epistatic effect) is definirely part and parcel of the pied genes.

As an example, I have a dominant pied in my homers which on it's own just gives a single white flight and maybe a couple of white feathers here and there. I also have a recessive pied gene that causes splash (all white flights and belly, some white in the neck and head). When I combined the 'splash-pied' with the 'dominant pied' I bred mostly white birds with the only markings on the wing shield and tail feathers. The combination of the two has an effect much greater than either of the separate mutations had, which is a form or synergistic epistasis which geneticists call *genetic enhancement*.

I do not doubt that the many of the set pied phenotypes have a lot of similar synergistic and antagonistic epistatic effects (enhanced and re-enforced by selection) going on. Proof of this would take years and a lot of space and money. So, if anyone out there wants to sponsor the research


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

With synergistic epistasis they mean that the combined effect of 2 genes (once they express) is greater than their separate effects, but what it doesn't say is that for instance throwing 2 single dose recessive genes together makes them express each other, while they shouldn't express if they obey the rules of genetics. It is not a big leap, I agree with you, but I would like some examples about this in other species.
You hear it all the time. Genetics doesn't apply to this and this breed (eg Serama chickens). But my seramas stick to the rules anyway... 

And if there are new rules to discover, let's find them out.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> With synergistic epistasis they mean that the combined effect of 2 genes (once they express) is greater than their separate effects, but what it doesn't say is that for instance throwing 2 single dose recessive genes together makes them express each other, while they shouldn't express if they obey the rules of genetics. It is not a big leap, I agree with you, but I would like some examples about this in other species.
> You hear it all the time. Genetics doesn't apply to this and this breed (eg Serama chickens). But my seramas stick to the rules anyway...
> 
> And if there are new rules to discover, let's find them out.


the rules of genetics is usually based on wild type, Ie. rec red is recessive to wild type so it needs two doses to show, Put it in combination with grizzle and kite and its IMO quite obvious/visible. 

When looking at the rules of genetics I think one must remember that the rules are based on that gene being in sole combination with wildtype


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> the rules of genetics is usually based on wild type, Ie. rec red is recessive to wild type so it needs two doses to show, Put it in combination with grizzle and kite and its IMO quite obvious/visible.
> 
> When looking at the rules of genetics I think one must remember that the rules are based on that gene being in sole combination with wildtype


This is vert true Evan, in it's simplest form. We are tlking about combinations of genes causing phenotypes that are unexpected. 

Het. Grizzle and hemi brown on a hen, gives us an obviously brown bird with obvious grizzling. The genes have little to no epistatic effects upon one another.

On the other hand, an almond that carries recessive red looks very different from an almond that does not carry recessive red, even though RR is recessive to wild type, there is an effect between the almond and the red allowing for the deeper ground color, that is an example of synergistic epistasis. The presence of almond enhances the effect of RR (even though it is not homozygous).

I believe that there are similar interactions between some of the pied genes. As an example, in my loft.

- splash x blue gives all blue (split for splash)
- blue x DomPied (only a single white flight on one side) gives about 50% DomPied. 50% blue
- splash x DomPied gives about 50% DomPied and 50% near white (only color on back and saddle). 

It is quite possible that these two genes have some interaction causing near the near white, and since I have been unable to create a similar near white from either lines alone, obviously both are necessary.


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