# Brother and Sister?



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

* Is it ok to breed brother with sister??? Thank you for your help. Happy New Year!

~Alice*


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Nope, I wouldn't do that. The babies will end up blind or have some other problem.

I had a nest mates, brother & sister that mated when I was 10 years of age, we didn't know it when we got them as babies. They had two babie and both were born blind. 

People do, however, breed father to daughter, and mother to son.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

_ Oh no! Thank you for telling me!! ~Alice_


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

This depends on how inbred the birds are. Brother sister matings are done But for 1 result. To tighten the gene pool on very good birds. BUT as was said If the birds have been well inbred. I would not recomend it. As the gene pool is to tinght to hope for good results. Line breed first then inbreed. The inbreed is father daughter mother son. Brother sister. BUT brother sister must be early in the program. If you are not sure on the direct relation ship I would out crose or breed down the line.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi there, 

I would recommened against full brother/sister matings. As stated their is a potential for unwanted defects showing up when the matings are to close. however with that said, The Janssen Bros. of racing pigeon fame, did breed 1/2 brother sister matings and were quite sucessful with the results. 

here's the basic idea behind it. The idea is that they have one common ancestor (will use the cock bird) the cock is bred down to two different hens. the best son and daughter out of the different hens are then bred together. the result is you have youngsters who's only comon ancestor is the original cock bird. hence, the youngsters will be dominite with his gene's. 

I would recommened that before you bred them together. get ahold of some basic books for stock breeding. it can be for horses, cattle or pigeons for that matter. the theory's are the same and they will cover most of the does and donts involved in inbreeding your stock.

Lawman


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

* They are, all of them but 2 are very closely related. I have 3 hens and 8 cocks. ~Alice*


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thank you, lawman. I can look at the library. -Alice


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Nope, I wouldn't do that. The babies will end up blind or have some other problem.
> 
> I had a nest mates, brother & sister that mated when I was 10 years of age, we didn't know it when we got them as babies. They had two babie and both were born blind.
> 
> *People do, however, breed father to daughter, and mother to son.*


   

i didnt know pigeons did that

but wuldnt the birds know who their fathers and mothers are?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

LondonPigeon said:


> i didnt know pigeons did that
> 
> but wuldnt the birds know who their fathers and mothers are?



They do feel a familiarity to their moms and dads and brothers and sisters. Because nestlings are drawn to each other as they mature. I have seen it.


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> They do feel a familiarity to their moms and dads and brothers and sisters. Because nestlings are drawn to each other as they mature. I have seen it.



I wander if the birds can tell who their grandparents are? 

the birds would then be able to be a big family group, nice for holiday time


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Aspigeons go. If left to there own they will mate with any bird that they can. As most families of birds are started. You line breed then in breed. NOW problem is. People get birds breed them tight fast. Trying that old myth to get back to a long removed ansestor. That shows fast as you see the birds dropping in size. You get a loss in size. loss in fertality. then deformity from inbreeding to deep. @ unrelated birds paired together YES brother sister will have no probelems. BUT as said befor. does the birds posess what you are wanting. If not do not go that deep. Many people will close the gap on top birds. AS prepotent birds come along just every so often. Birds that have been bred down thje line making a family of birds. Are allways the better birds. They are not chance birds. They have a history. And that takes a person forward with them. BUT records are a must. unless you breed very selective. And know each bird. records being the better method.. Controled breeding is also the best method of proper management. That is pairing the birds to improve them. To maintain them to take the birds forward. Now As pets. Still you want to control there breeding. So 1 you raise no more then you want. You keep them healthy. you maintain there line. Pigeon breeding is a art. As most all breeds. have a solid history. And to compete. You have to make a family that works and stay on top of the loop to stay competitive. Even say bird release white Dove . You have to work on building a foundation of birds that can come home not get lost as easy. As many white racing homers today are inbred lines and some have not been proven in the sky. So rebuilding that strong instinct is a project. I see many people saying they have plentix homers. The ones I have seen Arew far removed of the old line that was the real deal. As I remember many of the old line were not bull eyed whites. They were violet eyed birds. Which is a colored eyed white. I could go on and on. but i better stop.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> * Is it ok to breed brother with sister??? Thank you for your help. Happy New Year!
> 
> ~Alice*


 The quick answer is yes, you can breed brother to sister. It is a common fallicy that inbreeding will cause defects. The truth of the matter is, any defects which come to the surface, were already there to begin with.

Brother to sister inbreeding is simply a "tool", which an experienced or professional breeder is able to use, when the circumstances are right. As a general rule, for the average fancier, you are better off leaving it alone.

To go into detail concerning when the circumstances are "right", would require a course in pigeon genetics. Even then, the typical experienced pigeon owner, is incapable of learning about this after about 3 years of experience or so. Their "expert" status does not allow them to accept or understand new knowledge or technology. Their focus is on defending the status quo of their current level of knowledge or understanding.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The quick answer is yes, you can breed brother to sister. It is a common fallicy that inbreeding will cause defects. The truth of the matter is, any defects which come to the surface, were already there to begin with.
> 
> Brother to sister inbreeding is simply a "tool", which an experienced or professional breeder is able to use, when the circumstances are right. As a general rule, for the average fancier, you are better off leaving it alone.
> 
> To go into detail concerning when the circumstances are "right", would require a course in pigeon genetics. Even then, the typical experienced pigeon owner, is incapable of learning about this after about 3 years of experience or so. Their "expert" status does not allow them to accept or understand new knowledge or technology. Their focus is on defending the status quo of their current level of knowledge or understanding.


To a point this holds true. BUT as inbreeding is a tool to set desired quality. It has to be understood that you have to bring into play by the slow spreadin of that quality. To fast to jump brother sister matings then stay in the same gene pool with that and continued pairings as such. tightens the gene pool to fast. This causes the problems that you will see in a to close related family of birds. 1 of the first being birds that breed fertile for less years. size starts getting a little smaller Then the old deformity . As with When not managed right anytime you build a familty line there are faults that you have to work to offset. As with the good comes the bad. This is seen As a person really just races a handful of top birds each year. Knowing this. you use only those birds to continue on with. the others are removed. keeping those and raiseing from those birds takes you backwards. So GIVE those away. BUT not as show or race birds. just backyard birds. Then your program can effectively use that brother sister matings when the need comes up. Chances are they would really be half brother sister. As if tested for performance They may be a few years down the line of matings Befor being put together. As its not that often in 1 pairing that you would get 2 top bird from the same pair in a season. I have said many times breeding and raiseing pigeons is a art. A certion amount of people breed the art work and a certion amount buy and keep that art work. Now the breeder. uses genatics as a way to paint that bird into a fine piece of art. The beginer lets say. takes time and study to properly set down breeding pairs to enable positive prospects. Best I could suggest is learn from others . Vist lofts visit breeders read books study your birds decide hard what it will take to properly go forward with them. Find that breeder who has bred birds of distinction. Start there and soon you can breed birds that stand out. And inbreeding there becomes a controled point . And be sure to keep that watchful eye out on future needs. That at some times is the old out cross when its needed. Now backyard breeders. I would recommend not to inbreed birds to just have pigeons.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Pigeon Genetics 101*

*Successful breeding of close relatives for desired colors and performance*

That is another good topic for the genetics thread, besides colors, breeding brother and sister, half brother to half sister, and other close related birds.


I'll make a note of this for future reference.


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

*Morals*

But Morally it is wrong


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

LondonPigeon said:


> But Morally it is wrong


Not really its not. If you look at each and every breed of bird or animal That has been established by man Line breeding and inbreeding has been done to set desirded quality In them. Its been a history for I would hundreds of years. Now its not natures way i would say. But somepoint in nature it goes on. Even To put a mark on the birds animals and such Its a guide to improvement. If you take a look at it not as wrong But as the future of a breed.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LondonPigeon said:


> But Morally it is wrong


What ??  I am afraid to even ask, so I won't.


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

if the pigeons were human brother and sisters, it would be morally wrong for them to mate 

but tjheir not humans so I dont know, I guess its ok


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