# Short end V.S. Long end +Timegiven.



## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

1. Why is there so much time in the overfly for guys further? Does it really take that long?
2. Does winspeed calculate the wind? 

I am in my second year and wondering what in the world is happening sometimes with this overfly thing. Is it a disadvantage to be in the shortend and what will it take to win a race? w/good health and proper training?
Or should i just tell my birds to fly faster "if" that will work. Thx ahead.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

We just got back into racing last year, our club flys from the south going north...we have 20 miles of overfly on 3 or 4 members who live south and so far they have won most of the races, especially when its a headwind race. I think our birds may also be influenced by these birds when they see them stop to land 20 miles before home, maybe they stop and do a circle or 2 with these birds before flying 20 miles further north for home...in my opinion our birds only have a chance to win is if they are ahead of these birds and dont have worry about breaking away from the flock or who is landing and going where. I dont have the exact time but so far i have noticed we are giving ABOUT 1 1/2 minutes per mile for overfly, but i have been told the overfly time goes off of the very first bird clocked, but other than that i am not sure how it works.


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

It would be great if someone new, i just look at my time and the winning time and it meant that i had to give him about 40mins of flying time to fly 30 miles or so. Something close to that. 
Also is it true about the first bird clocked?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Actually, I believe that the shorter distances have an advantage.

If my bird has to fly 346 miles in a 300 mile race, and your bird has to fly 288 miles in the same 300 mile race. It just stand to reason that the extra distance (58 miles) would be like the last five miles of a marathon runners race. It would be when the runner (or flying bird) would be the most tired of the whole race, and your bird is already at home and saying hi to his/her mate, while my now tired bird, is trudging along. My bird would have most likely seen your bird land at your home, and that is another reason that would slow down the longer flyer. Because my bird may consider, circle, or even land at your location, before getting back up on its way to my home. Your bird would not see my bird land, but in fairness your bird may hesitate or consider, following my bird for awhile, before breaking off. Although if it is just two birds, I doubt that would happen. The secenario with my bird following yours down would be most likely. A large flock going past your home, might influence your bird though.

That last 58 miles diffinitely would separate the men from the boys (so to speak).

I would guess that any speed records set by pigeons, would be higher speeds on the shorter distances.

I envy the "short" lofts. I know flyers that have intentionally moved to locations that are shorter than their counterparts.

There is no extra time given to any birds. It always comes down to ypm (yards per minute). How fast each individual bird flew what he needed to fly. Minutes really are irrelavent.

Is my common sense thinking flawed?

P.S. Can you tell that I overfly EVERYONE in my combine?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*LONG END ,SHORT END this discusion has be on going in the pigeon racing world since day one.The truth is the slow races are won for the most part by the guys on the long end,while the fast races are won by the short end.The combine that I flew in for 15 years. Most people don't save their race sheets,I have saved almost all the race sheets club ,and combine. I have checked those sheets and over all the wins are about 50/50 for the short and long ends.While some years the short end wins more and other years the long does, but it balances out over the years. The race is won or lost at the release point if the birds circle for any length of time the race will be a slow race advantage long, on the other hand quick brake at the release point fast race short end. That's my take on this subject.* GEORGE


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

As most of us know..Fast races are BAD for the short guys...WHY ?? Because the wind starts picking up after a few hours...So the short end birds are getting home,and the long end birds are now flying with the wind at their tails...I give up to 100+ miles of overfly in my combine,to some lofts....When it`s a EAST wind here,it favors the short end guys...It`s the oppisite of a fast race..The long end birds are flying INTO the wind,and so it slows them up for that reason,plus they are flying alot more miles....
MY GRIPE IS THIS !!!!!
I have read so many times in the last few years that the RACING PIGEONS of TODAY,are alot better then the birds from the 1970`s and on back to whenever..The medications available,plus the training methods etc,have the modern racing pigeons doing amazing things..Just look at 400 mile one loft races that they are having now...That never was 
thought about 20 years ago....
SO...MY BIG QUESTION IS..to the AU & IF organizations .....
HOW COME THE OVERFLY TIME ALLOWED HAS NEVER BEEN ADJUSTED TO COMPENSATE FOR THE PIGEONS OF TODAY ??? WHY AM I GIVING MORE TIME TO FLY HOME,TO THE MODERN DAY RACERS,AND THEY ARE ALOT BETTER THEN THE PIGEONS OF 20 YEARS AGO ??? ALL THESE ALL-AMERICAN FLYERS WHO WRITE FOR THE PIGEON MAGAZINES SAY SO.........Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmm...I would hazard a guess that if all of todays birds benefit from meds, or whatever, it would equal out to both the short and long racers alike.

So, no difference between todays races and yesterdays races, as things were equal then and equal now. I have access to the same meds, training material and written guidance that everyone else has. The only thing I do not have access to is someone to clean my loft for me, and the very expensive birds. But that just makes it all the sweeter if and when I do win. 

Speaking of this debate going on for decades, I would have to say that many of us always find excuses why we got beat, or why someone else got beat.

Fact is, you win some and you lose some. Even Michael Jordan lost some. I remember Jordan scoring a measly 7 points in a basketball game and then the next night he scored 53. Same guy. Same team-mates. So, the obvious idfference was the opponents, different venue (location), and maybe just good luck or bad luck.

Whether it be in sports or pigeon racing, I have noticed over the years that the champions never make excuses. They just accept that they are not going to win them all, but try even harder to do so.

When I get beat, I congratulate the winners and vow to myself that tomorrow THEY are going to have to do better to beat me. Then I work towards that goal. (Don't take "tomorrow" literally. Sometimes it takes a few years or more, to improve dramatically).

Good luck to all. Your gonna need it. (I wouldn't mind some myself)


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I guess its true about the bird circling ect for the shortend. Like 2 c what the others think lol. How bought winspeed calculating wind direction ect does it do that?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Alamo said:


> As most of us know..Fast races are BAD for the short guys...WHY ?? Because the wind starts picking up after a few hours...So the short end birds are getting home,and the long end birds are now flying with the wind at their tails...I give up to 100+ miles of overfly in my combine,to some lofts....When it`s a EAST wind here,it favors the short end guys...It`s the oppisite of a fast race..The long end birds are flying INTO the wind,and so it slows them up for that reason,plus they are flying alot more miles....
> MY GRIPE IS THIS !!!!!
> I have read so many times in the last few years that the RACING PIGEONS of TODAY,are alot better then the birds from the 1970`s and on back to whenever..The medications available,plus the training methods etc,have the modern racing pigeons doing amazing things..Just look at 400 mile one loft races that they are having now...That never was
> thought about 20 years ago....
> ...


*Here again what may be true in one part of the country may not apply in another. Here in the SAN DIEGO area we normaly get a wind off the ocean. There for on the short races we have head winds or cross winds as these winds off the ocean are west to east,and our birds are coming out of the north east.Wind is the biggest factor in racing. One other thing here if the seabreeze is strong the flyers on the east side of the combine have a slight edge. Another thing is you need to check that the winds are like on the race course, i and many of the flyers would check the weather all along the course from the release point,many weather factors change you are sitting at home and the weather is great there but 50 miles or more the weather can be a lot different. Think about these things and check them out by starting to check out the weather on the race course,this may help you win a race. THINK PIGEON RACING IS MORE THEN PUTTING A BIRD IN A RACE DO YOUR HOMEWORK.* GEORGE


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

So to caculate YPM they would have know how many yards it is from the release point to your loft and then divide it by the number of minutes it took the bird to get home. Is this correct? So if this is true then overfly is really no advantage IMO, for some reason all these years i have always thought it was so much time per mile...man was i way off.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Yes, there is no advantage the bird has to go keep flying faster than your bird for the distance to their loft to win.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

[MN]eXist^_^ said:


> Thanks for the info. I guess its true about the bird circling ect for the shortend. Like 2 c what the others think lol. How bought winspeed calculating wind direction ect does it do that?



It does not caculate win speed. The bird has to go have a faster average speed to win period. There is not a over fly advange as to caculating who wins.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Just to help explain it better. Go to this link and scroll down to the bottom where it says "Calculate YPM",

http://www.speedpigeon.com/racing_pigeon_calculator.htm

Type in a distance in miles. Say 186.456. Then type in the hours, minutes and seconds it took your bird to arrive home. For an example, use 4 hours, 22 minutes and 44 seconds.

It will then tell you what your ypm is/was.

Each loft is located by taking a GPS device to it and recording the numbers, long prior to actually entering a race. It is a one time thing. Then the club has the numbers (location) for your loft and everyone elses loft. The Club and Combine already have the GPS coordinates for each release point and can in seconds, find out your ypm once they receive your arrival time. They will already know the release time because of coordination with the persons doing the release.

With GPS devices, the release point can easily be changed at a moments notice, because of natural disaster, weather or whatever. The releasing person can just call the Combine contact and tell them that a road is closed or whatever, and that the birds are going to be released from a different location, and can give the coordinates for that different location.

It's really pretty sweet now, compared to years ago, when GPS was not available to us.

P.S. Check out the records on the link, for the 396 and 420 miles flown. 92 and 93 miles per hour. Unbelievable. Must have been one heck of a tail wind.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Just for discussion concerning the long end and the short end flier's, wouldn't it be a more even playing field if the races that were set-up in whatever local club went both ways like 100 north, 100 south, 200north, 200 south for instance, wouldn't this automatically give every flier a fair chance no matter where they are located?!


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

I do not know where but I have heard there is a combine in Texas that does that...perhaps other places too. I agree that would be fair...in my club we fly south to north and every member is pretty in the line of flight each other with very little variance...i think it would be nice to race from the west from across nebraska (we did in the past but stopped, i dont know why) but it is what it is for now, i am on the long end for our club so to get a win for us or to come close our bird had to really be truckin and i guess i have some satisfaction knowing that.

Also i checked out speedpigeon.com Conditionfreak, nice site, i will be playing with the calculator on thie site alot now...thanks for sharing.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I guess that racing in different directions would help, but many directions can not go north and south, due to borders of other countries being too close. Where I am located, we could not do a 300 north, without going into Canada. Additionally, there seems to be a lot of intersecting with other racing groups, that have been worked out over the years, so that my flock and your flock are not meeting on race day, going in different directions. That would be a monster to work out if flying was in more than one direction.


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

2 trailers cost a lot these day'z


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I think in short/fast races, the overfly plays a big advantage for the longer end lofts. Since the races are shorter, the bird doing the overfly isn't gassed out before having to fly the remaining distance home after most birds have already clocked. In the longer races, the overfly could mean the difference between a bird coming home and falling short. So unless the overfly is twenty miles or less, then it's not a big difference.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yes--The Dallas combine used to fly around the colck---From the WEST-next year SOUTH-then East-then North. The clubs have split--not sure what they fly Now. I know one just flys from the East now. Stay on I-20
Overfly has nothing to do with the speed. The fastest YPM bird wins


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If OVERFLY has nothing to do with WINNING,how come lofts with more OVERFLY then the lofts allready in the club,are omited from JOINING that club ??? If you are on the SHORT end,giving all the club members OVERFLY miles,you are welcomed to JOIN and fly with them...Isn`t that funny ??? I would like to have a DOLLAR,for every loft which has been thrown out of a club,because he WON to much and he was on the long end of all the other clubs members !!!!.......Alamo


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

I feel your pain. I'm like 25 miles west off the line and 20 minuites of over fly to a large group guys living in town. I dont think any Ace pigeon can help me LOL. ONLY THE WIND. Flying south to north with a 10mph SE wind everyweek is killin me softly in yb's this year. Only win was a NW wind. But its ok will be flying Ob for first time next year so we can go from there. Good Luck Short enders.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

On a side note, there are some guys who live onthe really short end who claim to have champions in the long distance races when those guys' compeititors have a 50 mile overfly.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Alamo said:


> If OVERFLY has nothing to do with WINNING,how come lofts with more OVERFLY then the lofts allready in the club,are omited from JOINING that club ??? If you are on the SHORT end,giving all the club members OVERFLY miles,you are welcomed to JOIN and fly with them...Isn`t that funny ??? I would like to have a DOLLAR,for every loft which has been thrown out of a club,because he WON to much and he was on the long end of all the other clubs members !!!!.......Alamo



I fly 50 miles over fly and we had one of our money races last weekend that is 340 miles for me and we had 10-15mph head winds the whole way (typical this time of year last few were like this). I can promise you it was not an advantage to be on the long end.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Same here. I fly 47 miles over on a two hundred mile race. The only race I have done very well on, had winds coming from the northwest. We race north east. I believe that the short losts have a large advantage when it comes to not losing birds, and when heavy wind comes into account.

Really. Ya gotta see that the longer a bird is in the air, the more time and space there is for something bad to happen. Plus, just like a human marathon runner, there is a "wall" that birds and humans hit, at a certain distance. With marathon runners, I believe it is at about 22 miles (marathons are 26.2 miles). I don't know what it is for pigeons, but they are living things and there has to be a "wall" somewhere.

If a guys birds have to fly 500 miles and another guys birds have to fly 580 miles, that second guy better have one hell of a pigeon to beat the short guy.

No. Nothing has convinced me thus far, that flying a longer distance has an advantage. Common sense tells me it is the opposite.

I bet if someone did a comparison of average speed winners, with an eye on which ones were long, middle and short. I just bet the long lofts win average speed less frequently.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Same here. I fly 47 miles over on a two hundred mile race. The only race I have done very well on, had winds coming from the northwest. We race north east. I believe that the short losts have a large advantage when it comes to not losing birds, and when heavy wind comes into account.
> 
> Really. Ya gotta see that the longer a bird is in the air, the more time and space there is for something bad to happen. Plus, just like a human marathon runner, there is a "wall" that birds and humans hit, at a certain distance. With marathon runners, I believe it is at about 22 miles (marathons are 26.2 miles). I don't know what it is for pigeons, but they are living things and there has to be a "wall" somewhere.
> 
> ...


I agree with that statement. Doesn't winspeed automatically calculate more time given to overflys?


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

Kal-El,

No windspeed only claculates varience based on running time of the clocks or electronic modules for the actual race time flown versus the actual time the clock has run. And yes there are variences using electronic clocks, granted they are usually much smaller than mechanical clocks. Usually in the neighborhood of 2 or 3 seconds. AS for winning on the short end, so far this younbird season we have had 6 races 200 miles and under and they have all been won by short enders. It's still the bird and the weather not your location that determine your success along with excellent handling techniques.

Ralph

Ralph


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

OHIOGSP,In your area and mine,the prevailing wind is South West....That means,if most of the races are with a SW wind,I stand no chance of winning UNTIL we get to 300 miles and longer races...The LONG enders have the ADVANTAGE in all the SW wind races...If 2 races are with a NE or East wind,that HURTS the LONG enders....But that only happens 2 out of 10 races sometimes....So you long end guys, should count your blessings, if your CLUB or COMBINE flys a race course,in which the wind is a prevailing wind,for which your birds have it up their tails on the way home....I have no such luck,with my loft location....I would like my loft to be on the line of flight,and I wouldn`t care if I was a short ender...But I am way short AND way South of all LOFTS in my combine...The SW wind kills me on race day.....I have been killed so many times,my 500 lives are about up ......hahahahahaha !!!!!..........Alamo


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Alamo said:


> OHIOGSP,In your area and mine,the prevailing wind is South West....That means,if most of the races are with a SW wind,I stand no chance of winning UNTIL we get to 300 miles and longer races...The LONG enders have the ADVANTAGE in all the SW wind races...If 2 races are with a NE or East wind,that HURTS the LONG enders....But that only happens 2 out of 10 races sometimes....So you long end guys, should count your blessings, if your CLUB or COMBINE flys a race course,in which the wind is a prevailing wind,for which your birds have it up their tails on the way home....I have no such luck,with my loft location....I would like my loft to be on the line of flight,and I wouldn`t care if I was a short ender...But I am way short AND way South of all LOFTS in my combine...The SW wind kills me on race day.....I have been killed so many times,my 500 lives are about up ......hahahahahaha !!!!!..........Alamo


Have you been racing the last month? We have had the last 4 races with NE winds and this weekend is going to be ESE. We have had head winds for every longer/money race so far and it sucks to work all year to have the short end guys clean up on the longer races. These longer ones are probably the only ones I may have a chance to win. I have placed in the top ten in at least 12 races now and have not got over 3th place.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

Alamo,

We don't fly from the Southwest.

Ralph


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pigeon_racer said:


> We don't fly from the Southwest.


pigeon_racer: Does your region have a different prevailing wind pattern? 

I'd have expected most of Ohio to have similar wind pattern to southwestern PA & northern WV, though in the mountains, all bets are off... around Pgh, it's fairly evenly split between NW & SW winds in good weather, though they back around to SE to E in bad weather.

 I had the impression that race routes were usually planned to "run before the wind" as sailors say, or anticipate the prevailing wind will be (mostly) a tailwind. Looking at the stations for the Pittsburgh southern combine, their general route pattern looks more from WSW than SW. 

Alamo: does your combine use any of the same stations as Pgh South? (for longer distance races, possibly, since you're >50 miles east of us)


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

rfboyer,

Our winds are south most of the time and in the early spring are southwest, we fly west by northwest so we have constant cross winds.

Ralph


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

RFBOYER,we fly a 500 and a 600 with and against 7 combines....Including Pittsburgh Southern Combine and Penn/Ohio.....We are long end as far as combines go...The races are called Federation Races of 400 & 500 miles....In yb`s,we are invited to fly the Little Washington Bond Race,and a few of our combine members ship this race...It`s flown out of Louisville,Ky.....
Our race stations for YB`s are: Parkersburg,WV....Athens,Ohio.....Jeffersonville,Ohio.....Cincy,Ohio......Louisville,KY..
Pittsburgh Southern Combine flys a more westerly course out of the Pittsburgh area I beleive....We used to be as one back in the early 1990`s...We pulled out because we don`t like to fly a west course....As I said before,if we have nice weather,the wind is from the SW....This year,as OHIOGSP said,it`s been louzy for weather racing these YB`s....The wind has been mostly N...NE....NNE...ESE....Which makes for slow returns,and many bird losses...I didn`t ship two races because of bad weather..I don`t like loosing pigeons because of bad releases in louzy weather...That happened in our 1st race..I was lucky,I only lost 2 birds..Many birds were lost the 1st race....That`s not the way to do it....More patience is needed,and thought,before the birds go up....Alamo


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Alamo said:


> RFBOYER,we fly a 500 and a 600 with and against 7 combines....Including Pittsburgh Southern Combine and Penn/Ohio.....We are long end as far as combines go...The races are called Federation Races of 400 & 500 miles....In yb`s,we are invited to fly the Little Washington Bond Race,and a few of our combine members ship this race...It`s flown out of Louisville,Ky.....
> Our race stations for YB`s are: Parkersburg,WV....Athens,Ohio.....Jeffersonville,Ohio.....Cincy,Ohio......Louisville,KY..
> Pittsburgh Southern Combine flys a more westerly course out of the Pittsburgh area I beleive....We used to be as one back in the early 1990`s...We pulled out because we don`t like to fly a west course....As I said before,if we have nice weather,the wind is from the SW....This year,as OHIOGSP said,it`s been louzy for weather racing these YB`s....The wind has been mostly N...NE....NNE...ESE....Which makes for slow returns,and many bird losses...I didn`t ship two races because of bad weather..I don`t like loosing pigeons because of bad releases in louzy weather...That happened in our 1st race..I was lucky,I only lost 2 birds..Many birds were lost the 1st race....That`s not the way to do it....More patience is needed,and thought,before the birds go up....Alamo



You fly with the Ohio/penn Combine huh? I might have asked you before but do you know my friend Lee Kohli?


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

ohiogsp said:


> I have placed in the top ten in at least 12 races now and have not got over 3th place.



Oh, and make that at least 13 races. I just can't catch a break. Little story about today no birds were clocked in the club at all. I have 25 miles on the closest loft. 8 birds show up at my loft and circle. Most of them don't look like mine but one a late hatch I sent did. I wistled and wistled and the group kept turning wanting to go back the direction they came (towards everyone elses lofts) my late hatch would not come out of the group. He then went back the wrong way with the other birds and a half hour later people started clocking birds. Unfreeking believable. This sport likes to play some kruel jokes on me.


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## Jazzman (Dec 15, 2007)

ohiogsp said:


> Oh, and make that at least 13 races. I just can't catch a break. Little story about today no birds were clocked in the club at all. I have 25 miles on the closest loft. 8 birds show up at my loft and circle. Most of them don't look like mine but one a late hatch I sent did. I wistled and wistled and the group kept turning wanting to go back the direction they came (towards everyone elses lofts) my late hatch would not come out of the group. He then went back the wrong way with the other birds and a half hour later people started clocking birds. Unfreeking believable. This sport likes to play some kruel jokes on me.


Well that's gotta hurt. Just another reminder how fickle nature can be. Did you send 415, and the twins?


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I have stocked 415 and the one twin 417. I think I am going to fly 418 next weekend to 340 miles if the weather is nice otherwise he is done also. This race was only 135 miles and not a money race so I did not chance too many good ones.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

OHIOGSP,I fly with the IRPC (Interstate Racing Pigeon Combine)....Our clubs are in Latrobe,Pa.....Yukon,Pa...Altoona,Pa.....Connellsville,PA....Bedford,Pa....Cumberland,Md....and Frostburg,Md....I know of Lee Kohli...He is one of the BEST in the Penn/Ohio,and one of the top 5 or 10 around this area...We have as many as 125 lofts, fly the Federation Races in OB`s...And you have to awfull good,or LUCKY to beat Lee Kohli !!! 
He has won a few of these Races,and there are alot of birds in the races from 5 States...
No easy task to say the least !!!.......Alamo


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh My! 125


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Alamo said:


> OHIOGSP,I fly with the IRPC (Interstate Racing Pigeon Combine)....Our clubs are in Latrobe,Pa.....Yukon,Pa...Altoona,Pa.....Connellsville,PA....Bedford,Pa....Cumberland,Md....and Frostburg,Md....I know of Lee Kohli...He is one of the BEST in the Penn/Ohio,and one of the top 5 or 10 around this area...We have as many as 125 lofts, fly the Federation Races in OB`s...And you have to awfull good,or LUCKY to beat Lee Kohli !!!
> He has won a few of these Races,and there are alot of birds in the races from 5 States...
> No easy task to say the least !!!.......Alamo



He is a great guy and great flyer. My best friend in the sport reciently passed away but was real close with Lee and they were childhood friends. I have become friends with lee through him. May he rest in peace.


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