# Doxycycline for birds



## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I need help with a chicken. The chicken forum was not responsive so I knew I could count on you guys. I have an old rescued hen with a severe case of fly strike. Her abdomen is full of fluid, and the wound is below her vent. Infested with maggots. I started with two saline baths, a saline flush and a diluted peroxide flush. I dont see maggots at this time. She is now resting for the rest of the day. She is eating and walking. Have not seen poops yet. The wound has been untreated for a long time. I have access to doxycycline. Will this help? What other antibiotics could i use? Can someone help with dosage? I can see if she can be weighed on my gram scale but if not I can get an average, she's a pretty basic chicken.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Does she have an illness or just the wound ?, if just the wound then the baths should help and keeping her from getting it soiled, I would cleans with nolvassan with warm water. I would worry about the fluid, but I'm not sure if doxy would be the right medicine. Can you consult a veterinarian ?


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I can't rule out other illnesses, and I suspect that. My rule of thumb with chickens is that a hen with a dirty butt is a sick hen, and fly strike happens when chickens have dirty butts. She was on the cull list at work yesterday, I took her off and there isn't much money for her now. I can probably track down some other sources of antibiotics. The wound is bad, real bad. Smells like rotting flesh. What antibiotics would you guys use for a pigeon with a serious and infected wound?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Poor baby! Thank goodness you knew what to do, the first time someone enquired about maggots on this forum they were told to let the maggots do their thing, that they were beneficial 

You should start her on a course if Ivermectin, just in case any maggots or unhatched eggs have been missed. Also give her a non steroidal anti inflammatory.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My wildlife book recommends a broad spectrum antibiotic like amoxycillin.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/f/FAQ_flystrike.htm

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1491170-medication

I am sure you already did some online searches so this info may be nothing new. 

Feefo nailed it,though ~

The second link mentions oral Ivermectin, which sounds wise (this is a typical Pigeon wormer and can be purchased online or sometimes at pet stores).

Doxy is not a wide-net antibiotic, it is good for some things (respiratory and certain digestive infections). For open wounds, not so much. 

I would go with daily cleaning/debridement, oral Ivermectin and a wide-net antibiotic such as Amoxycillin, Trimeth Sulfate, Baytril, or Penicillin.

Sounds unbelievably nasty. Makes me mad how humans can neglect and let something like that happen to an animal.....


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I have some metacam left over from Lewis, I think I can track down ivermectin at the feed store. Can someone help with dosage if I do? I will try to track down the listed antibiotics. She's a trooper and a tough one. Unfortunately even if I pull her through this I don't know what caused her to stop caring for herself in the first place. My main focus now is the wound, secondary illness will be tackled later.

I am very angry she was allowed to get in this condition, little i can say without loosing my job, but yeah, infuriating.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Metacam dose is 0.2 cc for every 2.2 pounds. 
Please do not use peroxide on the wound any longer. It burns the flesh. I have had 2 hens with maggots and it required checking the wound several times a day and removing the maggots with tweezers.Just when you think you have found them all, there are more. It can be time consuming and stressful for you and the bird. Best to give metacam first.
I can help you with the ivermectin dose when you find some. The dose is dependent on the concentration you buy.
The fluid on the abdomen is never a good thing. Do you have a vet that can remove the fluid? That will alleviate much of her discomfort and help her breathe easier. 
The amoxicillin dose is 150mg/kg or 2.2 pounds.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I'll go by the feed store in the morn to hunt for ivermectin. I have someone a few counties over willing to mail me one penicillin pill (all she had), I figure that's a start. Unfortunately the vets around here aren't trained nor caring when it comes to small "livestock.". It's a rural community, and while there is many a skilled bovine and equine vet, chickens are considered dead at the first sign of a problem. It's a hike to someone who will see birds, and a big hit to the budget. 

She's fairly ok with being handled, I will keep maggot hunting for now. I just moved her inside as the flies were getting to her in the laundry room. I think the stress for the day
has been enough, and her appetite is very good. I will do another saline bath in the morning. I am concerned about the abdomen swelling, and fear it's more than the nasty infection. As far as I know she's non laying.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Also, she is quite thin. I've been giving her high quality seeds (she was eating strictly layer ration but I figure as an old gal that would do her no good) and some high protien scraps which one website suggested. I also offered a little nutrical.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sounds good. Penicillin will dose similar to Amoxycillin. 

With a chicken I suppose you need not turn it into a liquid suspension...but Charis might know on that one too.

Is the abdominal swelling usually subcutaneous, Charis ? If so, that isn't hard to drain with a needle syringe. If it isn't subcute...that s#cks....

Eeeeesh...and I thought _I _was having an un-fun weekend ! 

Bless ya.....


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I dont know what the fluid issue is, but I do know I have taken a hen from this farm before, and she died of a fluidy abdomen which I attributed to internal egg laying. She was fine most days, but occasionally shed get sick, comb would get pale and flop, shed poop a watery cheese like discharge, than bounce back. The last time she got sick it took her. Took another hen that had similar symptoms, always thin, never very healthy, but death appeared to be a stroke. Truth is she keeps chickens, is too sentimental to cull, but also doesn't give two craps about caring for them in old age.

This girl is still a trooper. She's one tough lady. She's been getting about two hours outside a day (I like to keep up moral) and so very happy to be pecking at grass. The wound is dry today, but her poops get in the wound and she needs frequent cleaning. The smell goes away after a saline bath, but comes back in a few hours.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Did you start antibiotic ? If not, order some Amoxy by telephone and have them overnight express it. Jedd's or Foy's....

Is the abdominal fluid worse ? I would be inclined to get a medal needle syringe and try to suck out something.....perhaps after antibiotics start (?)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Did you start antibiotic ? If not, order some Amoxy by telephone and have them overnight express it. Jedd's or Foy's....
> 
> Is the abdominal fluid worse ? I would be inclined to get a medal needle syringe and try to suck out something.....perhaps after antibiotics start (?)


Neither Jedds nor Foys have a have an amoxicillin dose that is strong enough for a pigeon, let alone a chicken. The money...overnighting and all would be better spent taking the chicken to a vet.
The suggestion of getting a medal syringe and try to suck something out is not good advise. Birds have air sacs through out the body and so trying to suck something out, when one hasn't a clue where to stick the medal syringe is not well advised.
Besides that is a procedure that should only be preformed by a veterinarian.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*You are violating forum code of conduct suggesting such a procedure.

Please edit your posts, Jaye. Thank you.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Lethal means of control - Our discussions encourage 'humane habitat modifications'. We reject all discussions about 'lethal' means of control.

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*Surgical Procedures. Invasive procedures on any animal should ONLY be performed by a licensed/qualified veterinary doctor. If you have an emergency situation please contact a professional for advice and treatment. There are many resources on Pigeon-Life that can help you locate professional care. Just because you may find a procedure posted on the WEB that doesn't mean it is valid or humane. 

Cruelty or torture of any animals. 
3. We require civil and ethical conduct on all forums. Personal attacks on other members, or pigeons.biz itself or its moderators and administrators, will not be tolerated. If asked, you will yield to the requests of the forum moderators and administrators.
*


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Otis7 said:


> I dont know what the fluid issue is, but I do know I have taken a hen from this farm before, and she died of a fluidy abdomen which I attributed to internal egg laying. She was fine most days, but occasionally shed get sick, comb would get pale and flop, shed poop a watery cheese like discharge, than bounce back. The last time she got sick it took her. Took another hen that had similar symptoms, always thin, never very healthy, but death appeared to be a stroke. Truth is she keeps chickens, is too sentimental to cull, but also doesn't give two craps about caring for them in old age.
> 
> This girl is still a trooper. She's one tough lady. She's been getting about two hours outside a day (I like to keep up moral) and so very happy to be pecking at grass. The wound is dry today, but her poops get in the wound and she needs frequent cleaning. The smell goes away after a saline bath, but comes back in a few hours.



Here is some information from F.A.S ,

"Ovarian Carcinoma: After finding this during necropsy and doing a little research, it was discovered that is the most common tumor of unknown origin in hens. It is associated with advancing age, which is why most vets are not exposed to it. Often fluid will accumulate in the abdomen. As the tumors spread, the intestine becomes constricted and the hens become emaciated. At necropsy there are countless white, firm tumors on the surfaces of the intestinal wall and oviduct. Birds that are forced into laying by additional light sources had an increased incidence of the tumors. In the experience of one poultry disease researcher, "birds began to die at 3 ½ years of age, and all had died of ovarian carcinoma by 9 years of age." (Helmboldt and Fredrickson, Diseases of Poultry 6th edition) Since most production birds are not allowed to live that long, it is not commonly seen. We have not been able to find any treatment that will reverse or stabilize this condition. Because the hens at Farm Sanctuary are treated, and have a much longer life-span then they ever would in a factory, we are seeing this more often. To keep the hens more comfortable, we drain the fluids in their abdomens when necessary."


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*The production (industry) birds were designed and bred to only live a year or two-due to demand of chicken in this country, they suffer from all kinds of issues due to poor genetics and hormones and antibiotics that are in their food, not to mention the way they are forced to live without sunshine. Egg laying hens are forced by artificial light to lay more eggs in shorter amount of time.

That is why they have so many issues, not to mention the meat industry chicken (not egg layer) is genetically designed to grow large breast meat and they cannot even stand normal when they are still young. They are not designed to live long.

My son received a bunch of these meat birds when the schools finished with their egg hatching science projects and needed to find a home for all of them, this is what the industry has done. So it is not surprising to hear about tumors and more. 

My son raises chickens from eggs from organic range fed hens, also egg layers from stock from private owners...there is quite a difference. His are outside all day to enjoy their lives. He had to humanely euth these poor meat industry birds, as they couldn't stand up to support themselves and not walk. 

*


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have had chickens since 1995. For me it began with a cornish x, Matilda, from a feed store. Shehad been a little boy's pet and was being sold as a frying hen. She lived to be 2 1/2 years old and died because her heart could no longer support her weight. During her short life, I learned a lot about commitment and I spent $3000. + trying to prolong her life.
In her short life, she suffered one health issue after the other. She had bumble foot the last year of her life and her foot had to be cleaned out and bandaged every other day. She also was on baytril for the last year of her life.
Since then, many other hens have come to live here...all discarded. One found in a bag of dead chickens on the freeway.
Many times, through the years, I have had to deal with the fluid in the abdomen issue. In my experience, by the time there is fluid in the abdomen it's already too late. Still, each time I have taken the hen to my vet to have the abdomen drained, gone through the course of antibiotics only to start the process over again. It's always been cancer. 
I can't say your hen has cancer. I can't tell you there is no hope but from what you have said, your hen is very ill and suffering.
I commend you for rescuing her and for caring.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

We haven't heard from you and I'm very concerned about your hen rescue. Will you please give us an up date?


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I imagine jays post was only to help me in my financial situation. I do not feel comfortable with such a procedure at this time, but in know way do I feel jaye was instructing me to do something outlandish. After much help from you all with a few pigeons, I trust your advice, and I think you know I would not do something I was not comfortable with. So no hard feelings on my end, and I understand your reasoning. I also understand I presented you all with an animal that was not in the field of this forum, but I do greatly trust the bird advice here and had no luck with other avenues, so I appreciate the stretch!


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I posted that before I saw there was a second page.

I hear you guys, I'm a vegan and do not consume eggs, but my boyfriend does. Our first hen came from the farm with a broken leg, an hour before the axe I broke down and took her home. We nursed her back to health (she was emaciated aside from the broken leg). After her leg healed, she laid eggs for one week, then never again. She was always are favorite hen, the matriarch. After many an illness and many a comeback, I found her on her side in the grass. She could not walk, and passed in her sleep that night (in a poofy cat bad which was her sick bed, whenever she did not feel good she would march into the laundry room and sleep in the cabbed instead of the coop). 

Anyway, on to ms.specks. Her wound is drying, its dark in color but no maggots. She is getting daily baths and flushes. My pennicillin pill has not arrived, I hope my sender has not backed out. She is eating and pooping, and still living in the bathroom to keep the flies away. She's spunky girl, lots of fight. She is still quite thin, abdomen swollen, the cancer guess is probably right. I dont believe in "extending laying" by winter time lights. If her body says no, it should be respected. I understand the damage as well, my bosses hens prolapse because of it. We love our chickens, we love watching there crazy antics more then the eggs.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Skyeking said:


> *You are violating forum code of conduct suggesting such a procedure.
> 
> Please edit your posts, Jaye. Thank you.
> 
> ...


You guys are damn hilarious, really...I mean, quite seriously.....Charis...YOU YOURSELF on another occasion regarding a Pigeon patient I had suggested using a syringe to drain.

Skye....the Forum is absolutely full of people suggesting verterinary procedures because others who post do not have the desire nor the funds to do the correct thing and bring the bird to a vet.

If you know me at all you know that I always suggest this first and foremost.

Otis, thank you for understanding the suggestion in the meaning and intent of it.

Charis...I swear, sometimes I just dunno why you can't get over yourself. Everytime you seem to be chilling out, you just have to intimate something negative towards me. I suggest from this point on, you and I simply just decline from commenting on each others posts. Quite seriously....the number of what one would term as 'veterinary procedures' you have done in your very own kitchen are so numerous one cannot even keep a record of it.

Truly....just mind-boggling.

And Skye...people suggest pricking/piercing/lancing birds on regular occasion here for various things....growths, bloated crop areas, nodules on feet and legs, etc. etc. Those suggestions are not uncommon. Yet on none of those thread entries have I ever seen a moderator come down on a member like this.
I would respectfully suggest you give more consideration to the particular situation before throwing your weight around. You are a much better mod than that.

Setting a wing, setting a leg, clearing a cere of an obstruction, debriding, draining, correcting an overgrown or crossed beak, tending to a broken beak, tending to an injured eye, stitching or gluing a crop or flayed area, providing limb manipulation and massage therapy...ALL of these things are veterinary procedures. ALL of these things are REGULARLY discussed and suggested HERE on this Forum....out of the best intentions, mind you.

Enuff said.

*Otis, glad to hear she is still with us. You have gone after a huge challenge. It may well be cancer but I really do think you need to order some Amoxy or Penicillin from a Pigeon supply place and get it overnighted. A single pill of penicillin will perhaps be one day's worth of dosage.

Also, if skinny and weak as heck she may also be full of internal parasites too, so perhaps a wormer is in order if that hasn't been discussed already.
*
Godspeed.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*We love our chickens, we love watching there crazy antics more then the eggs.
*

That's how I feel about my chickens too. I don't eat their eggs either. Chickens are fascinating and wonderful beings. i can't imagine life without my lovely hens.
When it's hot, mine march up to the back door and I let them inside to sleep in the air conditioned house. It takes them a while to remember to go back to their coop, after the weather cools down.

Regarding the fluid...it is pressing on air sacs which causes great discomfort. If the fluid is removed...there could be 60-120 ccs of it, she will be much more comfortable. Likely she will need to be on antibiotics the rest of her life...at least that has been my experience with similar. 
I'm glad the wound is healing.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> You guys are damn hilarious, really...I mean, quite seriously.....Charis...YOU YOURSELF on another occasion regarding a Pigeon patient I had suggested using a syringe to drain.
> 
> *That never happened, George. I never would have suggested you do that. You don't have the skill level. I know how to do it but I wouldn't even do it.*
> 
> ...



............


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Charis....I had a bird with a sudden large growth which turned out to be a blood blister, and you, on the phone, suggested I try to drain it and see if anything would come out.

On another occasion I had a Jay with a throat blockage on a Sunday with no vet open, and again via telephone you suggested if I had the right syringe I try giving him subcutaneous fluids.

I am not saying this in an accusatory fashion. In both instances you were using your experience and judgment to help a bird and friend out in a relatively sudden and critical situation.

That is exactly what my suggestion for Otis was. There's no splitting hairs.

This is silly. All in all you are good person, and I am sure both the Forum and Potrlandia are big enuff for both of us. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlGqN3AKOsA


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Come on Jaye, you know better than that. Charis would NEVER suggest you doing that to a pigeon. And you know that. Also, as far as trying to make others believe that she herself has performed any medical procedures on her birds.....................well that is ludicrous. You and I both know her, and we both know better. She has spent thousands of dollars trying to save many birds, chickens included, and has spent it time after time, taking the birds to the vet for such procedures. It seems that whenever you need to prove a point, or back up a claim you make, you pull things out of nowhere, and seem to treat the truth very lightly. But when you come on and lie about another persons integrity, that's just too much. You may be trying to make her look bad to bully her into not commenting on your advice, but Anyone that knows Charis, knows the truth. And knows that everything you have just said just isn't the truth.

You are not the only person who has been spoken to about these kinds of suggestions to do procedures that should be done only by a vet. It is against forum rules, and Sky is only doing her job. You even try to bully her into backing down. That is usually your MO, but I think that when a moderator speaks to you, and is doing their job that you should respect that, and back off, rather than throwing _your _weight around.
Now, before you come back and try to bully me...................it doesn't work, so don't bother. 'Nuff said.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Charis....I had a bird with a sudden large growth which turned out to be a blood blister, and you, on the phone, suggested I try to drain it and see if anything would come out.
> 
> On another occasion I had a Jay with a throat blockage on a Sunday with no vet open, and again via telephone you suggested if I had the right syringe I try giving him subcutaneous fluids.
> 
> ...


I don't remember a Jay with a blockage. If I suggested anything I would have suggested you take the bird to your vet for sub q fluids. I know you don't know how to give sub -q fluids. You don't even know how to tube feed.

I never would have recommended putting a needle in a blood blister. They just just dry up and fall off.

George...if you think you can bully me by telling mis-truths, it won't work. Nice try though.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jaye - you have just reposted the forum rule that states PT's stand on having any discussions about surgical/Vet procedures. So YOU are aware that these procedures are not be discussed in any section of PT. Skye has asked you to edit your posts in this thread. Please do so. You have no room for discussion when the rule is clearly stated in one of your own posts. There is another part that states that Administrators AND Moderators will have the final say and you need to follow our directions if there are any concerns about posts. By using PT you agree to this. 

If we have missed other advice about performing surgical/Vet procedures, it s because we simply can not be expected to read every post submitted in every thread. But I think that anyone that has been found to be advocating such procedures has been advised to follow the same rule(s) that apply here.

Even if you have found others preaching the use of surgical/Vet procedures it does not make it okay for you to do so. If you are going to be a caregiver, and follow the rules, you should be advising others to not give out such advice. Thank you for your cooperation on this going forward. Please do not try to force our hands on this!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

we can't discuss medical procedures? or do you mean, not to tell someone to do a procedure themselves and how on this forum. right? just want to get it straight. I would assume if someone wanted to tell someone how to do something prohibited on this sight they could just PM them or email them. not that I would do that, but I think it happens allot. esp when people think they know more than anyone.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

IMO - I would never attempt to tell anyone that they can not discuss anything on this forum, except for those concerns that are specifically identified in our code of conduct or forum rules. ( religion, politics, etc. ) 

Having said that, I would not want anyone suggesting, or telling, any member of this forum to try any procedure that is invasive to an animal/bird in any way. Giving meds orally, or MAYBE by injection would be exceptions, but only after proper hands on training for the procedure with someone skilled in that procedure. Vet, Vet Tech, licensed rehabber, or others that have a true working knowledge of proper procedure, dose levels, etc.

Any other invasive procedures should only be done under vet or rehabber care. I know that we have many people here that feel qualified to do such procedures but may not be qualified to teach others to do them properly. There is also a liability issue for anyone giving that advice. Maybe not legally, but I would feel horrible if I told someone to drain a blood blister and the person went in too far and punctured a lung. Bad for the bird, bad for the owner, and bad for any trust the owner might have had coming to PT.

I'm not sure I have explained this well. Discussions of possibly helpful procedures that should be suggested when visiting a vet/rehabber is one thing, but advocating that the rank and file do these procedures does go against forum rules. ???????


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Back to my original concern and why one should never try to drain fluid for a bird's abdomen,
here is a link about chicken's respiratory system so members can see why it's so important it be done by a professional.

http://mikethechickenvet.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/chicken-lungs/


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

In this link, the internal organs. How would one know if they poked one?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...pECUrKKCKHjiAK0mICoDw&ved=0CDcQ9QEwAg&dur=276


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jaye said:


> Skye....the Forum is absolutely full of people suggesting verterinary procedures because others who post do not have the desire nor the funds to do the correct thing and bring the bird to a vet.
> 
> If you know me at all you know that I always suggest this first and foremost.
> 
> ...


*Jaye, I know exactly about some of the suggestions people have made over the years, and if I am there to catch anyone breaking any rule, I will politely tell them. I have been on this forum for quite a while, and I only know you from a few of your posts. We appreciate your time given to those in need and I appreciate and respect all members who are so giving of their time and knowledge. 

This was not any kind of personal attack, I'm just doing a job and if you come across anyone breaking a rule, I expect you to notify us and we will be on it. I merely reposted forum rules as a reminder for everyone, I'm not throwing my weight around, it was not a personal attack. 

* I myself do not deem fixing broken wings and legs INVASIVE-UNLESS the break is so bad (compounded) that it does end up to be a surgical INVASIVE procedure. Many of the things you mention are not invasive. Yes, they are VET procedures but not INVASIVE. SURGICAL procedures such as the cutting into, any procedure that requires the sticking of needles into flesh (except routine vaccines), and stitches-that is invasive, it not only requires a vet, but it requires anesthetics/antibiotics and more. Perhaps we need to update the surgical procedure definition and that was discussed before, but I'm not going into that now.

Peace be with you. Lets get BACK ON SUBJECT.
*


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

back on subject.
Do not drain the chickens abdomen yourself, unless you are qualified. who you would go to for help remains to be determined.


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## Rod Hultquist (Aug 23, 2009)

Can you consult with your county agricultural agent?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Something that could help is [URL="http://www.petmeds.co.uk/p-7168-frusol-solution-150ml.aspx"]*Frusol Sol (furosemide)*[/URL] which is the diuretic that my vet prescribed for our pigeon who had a large build up of abdominal fluid due to a growth (she removed some fluid first with a syringe to make him more comfortable). 

It has controlled the fluid for three months now and the pigeon has a good quality of life whereas before he was on the ground being bullied.

I have checked the bottle and it is labelled Frusol Sol 40mg/5ml (which is the concentration of Frusol for Cats) give 0.06ml twice daily (this is for a 400 gram pigeon).

If you are still around and if this helps can you let us know for future reference? Thanks!


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