# Remember this red grizzle?...



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Back when this little guy was this young, I posted his picture because his feathers looked different from anything I've seen before in my red squeakers. Not quite normal grizzle-like, but the feathers almost looked like the color was neatly scribbled on each feather.
Well here's some pictures as he's gotten older and moulted.
May 15th








http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/May15th2008/photo#5200652732778093282 - Other shot of him

June 1st








(more pics here, including sibling)



Pics I just took today, August 15th








(more pictures here)

Seems like he gets more white everyday now. I think he looks really neat though  Is this tiger grizzle?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Cool looking bird. Funny how much they can change huh? I've never had a bird that made a REAL drastic change from baby to adult.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

What a striking bird, Becky!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks 
Out of all the birds I've had, this one is probably in first place when it comes to big changes. I was expecting maybe a bit more normal grizzle to show on the wings and get more white specks on the head, but not all these solid white weathers everywhere. It almost makes him look like he's constantly going through a heavy moult


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## David Ey (Dec 31, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> .....Seems like he gets more white everyday now.


You better send him to me before he turns all white.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi BECKEY, I was going over some of the threads that I missed while I was off line. Just want to let you know that the bird here is a recessive red I have one that did the same even more then the bird that you have. Recessive red masks the true color.I would like to know what color the parents of this were* GEORGE


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

would they call that a "tiger" grizzle, or print grizzle?...the recessive red is how the seraphim moults to all white also, the wings are red when young and then moult to all white...it is interesting.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I don't see RR*



george simon said:


> *Hi BECKEY, I was going over some of the threads that I missed while I was off line. Just want to let you know that the bird here is a recessive red I have one that did the same even more then the bird that you have. Recessive red masks the true color.I would like to know what color the parents of this were* GEORGE


Look at the tail and wing feathers. They have the classic ash color of ash red. I think it's a t pattern ash red grizzle. It may be called tiger grizzle but whether it's different than typical grizzle or not, I don't know. Some say that it is.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> would they call that a "tiger" grizzle, or print grizzle?...the recessive red is how the seraphim moults to all white also, the wings are red when young and then moult to all white...it is interesting.


 Hi SPIRTWINGS, This bird is not a Tiger Grizzle, its not a grizzle of any kind its a Recessive Red. ...GEORGE


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

george simon said:


> Hi SPIRTWINGS, This bird is not a Tiger Grizzle, its not a grizzle of any kind its a Recessive Red. ...GEORGE


it does'nt take much to confuse me when it comes to colors and pattern, except the ones that eveyone knows....is there a color class in shows for rr?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Becky*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Back when this little guy was this young, I posted his picture because his feathers looked different from anything I've seen before in my red squeakers. Not quite normal grizzle-like, but the feathers almost looked like the color was neatly scribbled on each feather.
> Well here's some pictures as he's gotten older and moulted.
> May 15th
> 
> ...


It is a nice looking bird. Grizzle is one of those genes that makes some drastic changes in the moult to adult feathers and sometimes in successive moults. There are other genes that make big changes too and are the reason that it's best not to try to evaluate them until they moult.

Whether this one is tiger grizzle or not, I don't know but it looks as if it could be. I don't know whether the bird has another factor that makes him look this way or if it is just simply the grizzle gene. He is now looking mottled and has a tiger pattern to the wing. This is how recessive red affects grizzle but the bird looks very ash red to me. Could he be a recessive red carrier? I'm beginning to wonder (from my own birds as well) if ash reds that are split for recessive red act like recessive reds.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> Look at the tail and wing feathers. They have the classic ash color of ash red. I think it's a t pattern ash red grizzle. It may be called tiger grizzle but whether it's different than typical grizzle or not, I don't know. Some say that it is.
> 
> Bill


 Hi Bill, Did you look at ther pictures that were posted later after the bird molted out.The tail in the picture of June 1 is not what I would call ash, it looks more like the color of some of the tails on some of the indigos that I raised this year. That is why I realy would like to see a picture of the parents of this bird,that would clear up a whole lot about this bird. ..GEORGE ..PS, The other thing if this bird is a tiger grizzle why has it not molted out the color from the head, as all tigers do.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I never thought this bird had RR in it. I did think though, that the babies had a bit of indigo in them because all the 'ash-reds' from those parents had tails that looked more blue than normal EXCEPT the tiger grizzle's nestmate, who's tail looked more normal. Once the tiger grizzle moulted out and got all those white feathers, it's tail also lightened up a bit I think. Not nearly as dark gray looking.
I didn't know what to call it when it was younger, but I thought that maybe since the nestmate was a t-pattern, that might have been what made this bird so red.
Here's the parents:
Dad:
http://i33.tinypic.com/8xlyy8.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2ykdkxf.jpg

And for the mom, I can't find any good pictures of her. I'll see if I can take one today though. But I can tell you she looks like a normal blue bar.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> it does'nt take much to confuse me when it comes to colors and pattern, except the ones that eveyone knows....is there a color class in shows for rr?


 Well each breed has it's own standard there for some breeds have a color class for recessive red while others do not,and in some cases they may be shown in the AOC class (Any Other Color). ...GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*She looks in between*



MaryOfExeter said:


> I never thought this bird had RR in it. I did think though, that the babies had a bit of indigo in them because all the 'ash-reds' from those parents had tails that looked more blue than normal EXCEPT the tiger grizzle's nestmate, who's tail looked more normal. Once the tiger grizzle moulted out and got all those white feathers, it's tail also lightened up a bit I think. Not nearly as dark gray looking.
> I didn't know what to call it when it was younger, but I thought that maybe since the nestmate was a t-pattern, that might have been what made this bird so red.
> Here's the parents:
> Dad:
> ...


There looks to be ash under the rump but the red looks almost recessive red. I have rollers like this too, both red and yellow and am never sure what they are. Are they poor recessive reds or ash red t patterns or spreads that have been affected by bronze or grizzle or some other factor, in such a way that makes them hard to distinguish. I'm trying to sort mine out but it takes a long time.

As to the tail of your bird, I feel that it is way too ashy as a youngster to ever call it anything but ash red. It is interesting to note how that it became redder in the moult and developed the mottling. I thought that I saw light grizzle in the face as a youngster and for whatever reason, it developed to mottling with white as an adult. This is how recessive red affects grizzle. I don't know how indigo can affect it yet as I haven't made any indigo grizzles as yet. I will.

I have several recessive red grizzles that look very similar to your bird but their tails are red, not gray. Some have some gray in them and are what we try to breed away from for recessive red but if they are pure gray like yours, they are ash reds.

If dad is ash red and mom is blue, all babies should be ash red, unless he is split for another color or gene. In the case of RR, both mom and dad would have to carry it.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well all babies were ash-red, yes. I got a couple yellow check hens out of the pair as well.
And when it was a squeaker, you could see a little grizzling on the face, as well as a very weak hint on the wings. I had no clue it'd change so much. I did think maybe the mottle would have RR in it, but that tail was all gray. I also thought maybe the dad looked a little like it, but again with the tail not looking right.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Check is a clue*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Well all babies were ash-red, yes. I got a couple yellow check hens out of the pair as well.
> And when it was a squeaker, you could see a little grizzling on the face, as well as a very weak hint on the wings. I had no clue it'd change so much. I did think maybe the mottle would have RR in it, but that tail was all gray. I also thought maybe the dad looked a little like it, but again with the tail not looking right.


If mom is blue bar, check comes from dad. He could be spread, t pattern or check and throw checks.

Anyway, what are you doing up this time of night young lady? I know I gotta go to bed. See ya tomorrow.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Intresting Gene Pool*



MaryOfExeter said:


> I never thought this bird had RR in it. I did think though, that the babies had a bit of indigo in them because all the 'ash-reds' from those parents had tails that looked more blue than normal EXCEPT the tiger grizzle's nestmate, who's tail looked more normal. Once the tiger grizzle moulted out and got all those white feathers, it's tail also lightened up a bit I think. Not nearly as dark gray looking.
> I didn't know what to call it when it was younger, but I thought that maybe since the nestmate was a t-pattern, that might have been what made this bird so red.
> Here's the parents:
> Dad:
> ...


 Hi BECKEY, I am glad that you posted a picture of the father. I think that he has a large gene pool that contains,Recessive red,Grizzle,and bronze and indigo,and ash red, he also carries dilute.So what does all this mean? Recessive Red ,Spread and many of the Bronzes suppress the effects of Grizzle.I will quote from QUINN's book"Recessive red in combination with Grizzle, produce red mottles,very often white is restricted to the areas of the head and neck, as found in kite grizzles."As I see it you can never tell what will pop up in his young and adding his mates gene pool who knows what effect we will get. I hope you will keep good records with pictures of all of his young, and the birds that he is mated to. ...GEORGE


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## Michael J Buden (Oct 23, 2008)

A recessive red.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Here's another clue*

All babies have been ash red or ash yellow. Dad must be ash red and of course, split for dilute, all dilutes will be and have been hens.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yep. All babies were checks, except that one t-pattern, and both the dilutes we got from him were hens. It seems like I got a lot of sons from him that looked like they may have had some indigo in them.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Becky*

I have to question when people think that a bird is carrying indigo. Indigo is a dominant gene, so it works more or less like grizzle. Either it is or is not indigo. Birds are not split for indigo. If there are genes that hide or mask indigo, I'm not aware of them but if any could, recessive red would be a likely candidate. I have a couple of young birds that I will test for this next breeding season. Could ash red cover indigo as well, I don't know but I've read that ash red indigos just look like ash reds, maybe alitte darker. It is possible that dad is this.

I think bronze that shows up in many birds, more likely comes from kite. This is a gene that can be passed on in varying degrees and is another that is probably hiding behind some of my recessive reds. The classic kites were t pattern blues with bronze in their flight feathers. It can be intensified to show into the shield and I've seen them with spread that look like blacks with a bronze wash over them (which is really what they are).

Anyway, George and I are both working with RR and indigo in combination with one another. I have some babies that are nearly weaned and they look very interesting. I will post some pics soon. George has wanted to see them too.

The father is t pattern blue indigo with heavy black flecking. The mother is a recessive yellow wf dominant opal. She is pretty much a whiteside. One baby is recessive red and looks to be undergrizzle. It could be dominant opal but I can't say yet. It has too much gray in the tail as Frank said it would but not enough to call it ash. It is most definately RR. The other looks very much like an almond but has deeper rust color from the indigo. I really don't know what to call this one, or for that matter, how it came to be.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well when I said that, I meant I wasn't sure if it was indigo or not. Usually when I think indigo, I imagine a blue indigo bird. But I know it can be on ash red too, which I'm not sure if I've seen one or not. I just thought it'd look something like the other babies from the pair. Or maybe they're one of those good ash red mimics, I don't know. But once they got a little older and moulted again, it got even more confusing because they looked like they got more red-ish than blue-ish.
Here's a picture of one of them:
http://i34.tinypic.com/1fztar.jpg


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Becky*

Well, it certainly can get confusing. Ash red indigoes don't look much different than normal ash reds except that they tend to be alittle darker, the heads especially, look more blue or slate color than typical ash reds, which are more silvery or ash or reddish. Slobberknocker has several examples on their color charts.

There is certainly plenty of indigo in racing homers. It can be with any of the basic colors, blue, ash red or brown but it shows itself best with blue. I guess you could say the same for kite as it stands out from the blue coloration and is easy to see.

The main point that I wanted to make about indigo is that it is not something that just shows up, it is a dominant gene and birds are indigoes or non-indigoes, just like grizzle or other dominant genes. If it is being carried through a family line, it never really went anywhere but in combination with ash red, it can be hard to recognize. Your young bird pic looks as though it could be indigo ash red but I'm not sure either.

How about a picture of mom? Some blue bar indigoes don't look too different either. I think the main difference in some that look basically blue would be the tail bar, which would be mostly gone to a point of all dark gray, similar to ash red but darker. Blue, non indigoes have a very obvious black tail bar.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I didn't know before that indigos are like grizzles in that way. Guess you learn something new everyday? 

I'm pretty sure the mom was a normal blue bar when it comes to the indigo part. No rusty color in the wings and the tail bar looks normal. I'll try to get a picture when I get home to show just in case you guys see something else in there.

Personally indigo has always been one of my favorite colors in my homers. I like the indigo bars the most, but I've only had one of those. I think they look pretty neat


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi BECKEY, I have more to say on the subject but I am press for time as I am getting ready for the PAGEANT OF PIGEONS SHOW this week,I will be back Sunday I will try to post the follwing Monday 25 Nov.*GEORGE


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh...He's going to keep us hangin huh....


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I didn't either*



MaryOfExeter said:


> I didn't know before that indigos are like grizzles in that way. Guess you learn something new everyday?
> 
> I'm pretty sure the mom was a normal blue bar when it comes to the indigo part. No rusty color in the wings and the tail bar looks normal. I'll try to get a picture when I get home to show just in case you guys see something else in there.
> 
> Personally indigo has always been one of my favorite colors in my homers. I like the indigo bars the most, but I've only had one of those. I think they look pretty neat


I'm not saying that they are like grizzle in appearance, only that the gene works the same way. There are both homozygous and heterozygous indigoes and both are visually indigo. Homozygous indigo looks like ash red but alittle darker, especially in the face and head. Homozygous grizzle can be white or so near white that people don't realize they are grizzles. That's the similarity. The het birds are easy to spot and the genes work the same way in that they are both dominant as well.

When I first got indigo, I was thinking of it as a separate color, instead of how it really works. It is just another modifier that can be attached to any color of birds. It is most visible in the het state and in blue base colored birds.
Homozygous spread indigo seems to be like lavender (spread ash red) but darker and almost purple. Het spread indigo is the typical andalusion. The hets usually look patterned even though they are spread. The spread birds don't usually show the bronze that the pattern birds do but they can show some.

I hope this makes sense. It's all pretty new to me too but I'm enjoying having them around.

Bill


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Becky, what was ever the conclusion you came to on this bird? After more than 3 years. I've seen some poor RR.



Also this is exactly what I've been thinking. Just kite bronze placed on something other than a t pattern.



jbangelfish said:


> I think bronze that shows up in many birds, more likely comes from kite.
> 
> Bill


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well we all know I don't do genetics, but I do like the color I have one like it and wish I had more. So what would I have to mate him to to get another?
Dave


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

A picture of the bird would be needed for an accurate answer to be given


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well I lost him not long after the more recent picture was taken. But I seriously doubt it was indigo or RR. Dad was an ash-red grizzle piebald, nothing indigo about him, and mom was a blue bar. Unrelated and RR isn't likely. Ash-red t-pattern with dirty and possibly the other two darkeners.


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