# In pursuit of recessive red



## Ikon

Is she a recessive red? Her flights are red but her tail is like ash colored.



















she's newly acquired, she might have been under fed from her previous owner. I'll try to bring her back into shape and health.
she wil be paired with my recessive red cock. (below)


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## sev3ns0uls

yes, she is a recessive red.


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## 12Ka-6

Looks recessive red with the underlying colour bleeding through.


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## Ikon

Nice! will their offspring be always recessive red, every pair that they will produce? or there is still a chance that they will have a non-recessive red offspring?


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## Henk69

She looks like an ash red with a bronze gene to recolor the flights. I have a lot of true recessive reds myself, they are different.


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## pigeon is fun

Henk69 said:


> She looks like an ash red with a bronze gene to recolor the flights. I have a lot of true recessive reds myself, they are different.


Can you please post some pics of your recessive reds.


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## sev3ns0uls

Henk69 said:


> She looks like an ash red with a bronze gene to recolor the flights. I have a lot of true recessive reds myself, they are different.


* this is not a ash-red.* Its a recessive red or another word, unimproved recessive red. It may carry red underneath but its not ash-red. These RR are common on the homer especially in Meulemans strain.

Ash-red look like this. As you can see that it has freckles blue spot on the wings. That indicate that its an ash red. 










unimproved recessive red looks like this. In this case, Ikon's hen looks exactly similar.









The other RR or improved recessive red is like this.










Here is a site i refer too. 
https://sites.google.com/site/colourhomers/mutations/recessive-red


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## sev3ns0uls

Ikon said:


> Nice! will their offspring be always recessive red, every pair that they will produce? or there is still a chance that they will have a non-recessive red offspring?


Okay unless you pair her up with a cock that carries the recessive red gene or show recessive red as well in order for you to have any recessive off spring. 

If you breed her to any other cock birds that dont have or carry recessive red gene then No, you will *NOT* get any recessive red offspring. *Although all the male offspring only * will carries the recessive red genes because the mother has recessive red gene.


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## Henk69

Sorry but ash reds can look a lot different if they are spread and/or T-check etc...

If rec.red on a ash red base looks like that, then why does one recommend that? They should be on a black spread base.


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## sev3ns0uls

Henk69 said:


> Sorry but ash reds can look a lot different if they are spread and/or T-check etc...
> 
> If rec.red on a ash red base looks like that, then why does one recommend that? They should be on a black spread base.


They dont have to be one anything. yes if Ikon wants a a rec.red that look like this---->









a black spread color bird will be the best bet.


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## Ikon

recessive red like the picture above will be very hard to find. as long as the bird is considered recessive red it's ok with me. the pair I have right now is my 1st pair of recessive red. eventually I hope I could still find a better recessive red than what I have right now. the picture above is a perfect recessive red, imho, if I could find a pair that perfect, it'll be one of my joyous day!


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## Ikon

Henk69 said:


> Sorry but ash reds can look a lot different if they are spread and/or T-check etc...
> 
> If rec.red on a ash red base looks like that, then why does one recommend that? They should be on a black spread base.


Kindly post pictures of your rec. red.


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## NZ Pigeon

Sorry but I agree with henk, he speaks the truth however you seem to be close minded to it. I have ash red T patterns in my loft with bronze that look exactly the same as this bird and I have also seen rec reds that are poor look like this bird.

In short, Pair it to your rec red. If all are rec red then this bird is a poor rec red. If you get a mix of birds this bird could be either het rec red on ash red with bronze. The one main rule to pigeons and their phenotypes is to never be close minded. They can fool even the best of the genetics guys and gals.


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## NZ Pigeon

sev3ns0uls said:


> They dont have to be one anything. yes if Ikon wants a a rec.red that look like this---->
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a black spread color bird will be the best bet.


That is debatable. I have seen nice red reds with all base colours. I like Brown spread rec reds myself but anyone can achieve a good spread on any base colour if they put the work in. Ofcourse there will be short cuts one can take but as far as I know there is no hard and fast rule as to what one should have as their rec red base.


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## NZ Pigeon

Sevensouls, you imply all ash reds have dark flecks???? Maybe reword that to explain SOME ash reds will have black flecks, It is indication they are ash red but if they do not have flecks that does not mean they are rec red, Your post implies this.


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## NZ Pigeon

PEOPLE - I hate reading comments such as "rec red looks like this"
Nearly all pigeons phenotypes vary so one can never show a pic and state that this is what a bird of this colour type WILL look like. Its misleading to the newbies.


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## Henk69

I do a lot of crossings with different breeds that carry rec.red
In further crossings the rec.red comes back and it always looks typical. No offence... 

Examples:









Purebreed magpie but note the typical tint:









This one is actually not that shiny in the neck:









I don't deny that it can look crappy on the wrong base...


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## sev3ns0uls

NZ Pigeon said:


> Sevensouls, you imply all ash reds have dark flecks???? Maybe reword that to explain SOME ash reds will have black flecks, It is indication they are ash red but if they do not have flecks that does not mean they are rec red, Your post implies this.



I only compare picture to picture. Of course we are all guessing. The only way to find out is for Ikon to breed that hen out himself. And yes im apologies for being a little close mined too. 

As far as i know, not all ash red will have flecks. I only say so due to the picture i post. Also ash-red hen have very few black fleck then cock does. Source from Becky youtube. ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ7H5EiJ3s

here is another good site. ---> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/red.html


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## tjc1

Is this a good rec red?


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## Ikon

does it mean that we cannot really tell from the colors of the feathers if it is a recessive red unless the pigeon is paired with another recessive red and have a rec. red babies?



sev3ns0uls said:


> The only way to find out is for Ikon to breed that hen out himself.


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## NZ Pigeon

sev3ns0uls said:


> I only compare picture to picture. Of course we are all guessing. The only way to find out is for Ikon to breed that hen out himself. And yes im apologies for being a little close mined too.
> 
> As far as i know, not all ash red will have flecks. I only say so due to the picture i post. Also ash-red hen have very few black fleck then cock does. Source from Becky youtube. ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ7H5EiJ3s
> 
> here is another good site. ---> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/red.html


Hens don't have any black flecks when ash red unless mosaic or affected by a rare modifier such as Indigo which can sometimes cause slight flecking in ash red hens. This is due to the hen being hemixygous for base colour therefore she is unable to carry blue meaning she won't show blue flecking.

I am sure your second source (Ron Huntleys site) will state as I do, aswell as Becky


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## NZ Pigeon

Ikon said:


> does it mean that we cannot really tell from the colors of the feathers if it is a recessive red unless the pigeon is paired with another recessive red and have a rec. red babies?


 We cannot be 100% certain as it is possible this bird is het rec red with bronze as stated earlier. I would say its 99% sure this is a bad rec red though.


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## Creek13

tjc1 said:


> Is this a good rec red?


Depends on what your version of a "good" recessive red is. To me a good rr is a bird with a very rich deep red all over. No white and no bleed through of the underlying color.


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## Creek13

Has anyone else noticed that magpie is sitting on a chicken? lol


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## NZ Pigeon

Yup I noticed, Thought it was awesome, Mind you, I am sure there are some radicals out there that would think its dangerous hehe...


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## tjc1

Is this one better its one of my male crested rollers


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## NZ Pigeon

That's not recessive red, Its either a deroy (rec red with almond) or an almond which is het rec red. I have never seen a deroy with so much flecking in the tail so I would assume this is infact het rec red.

Its a lovely bird either way! I am hoping to get my almonds this rich in colour with heaps of blue tail flecking.


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## almondman

Creek13 said:


> Has anyone else noticed that magpie is sitting on a chicken? lol


Adds a whole new meaning to cross breeding!


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## Creek13

Yes indeed that is a beautiful almond. Looks deroy to me. What are the parents?


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## tjc1

unknown parents lineage but the last babies on the 2013 thread are babies off that boy and almond. they came out quite nice


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## Ikon

someone is selling me this bird, is she better than the 1st rec. red hen I've posted or worst? 

mother is a blue-checkered/father rec. red produce young blue checkered cock and red hen.

this one is the red hen offspring. she is now a year and a half old.


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## NZ Pigeon

A wee bit of colour leaking in the tail but considering the bird is in its adult plumage and not showing white is very positive. I like it. Nice dark colour, Probably carrying bronzes and dirtys. Tail almost looks Indigo.


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## sev3ns0uls

why not get a rec.red cock bird and mate with the hen you posted on the first post?? 

The rec.red of this hen is much better then the first one you posted but that is only my opinion.


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## Henk69

In my opinion not a rec.red, sorry


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## Ikon

the 3rd picture in my 1st post of this thread is my rec.red cock. i'm choosing a better rec. red to pair with him. hence, why i'm seeking for an advice.




sev3ns0uls said:


> why not get a rec.red cock bird and mate with the hen you posted on the first post??
> 
> The rec.red of this hen is much better then the first one you posted but that is only my opinion.


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## sev3ns0uls

Ikon said:


> the 3rd picture in my 1st post of this thread is my rec.red cock. i'm choosing a better rec. red to pair with him. hence, why i'm seeking for an advice.


well in this case then, breed the cock to the first hen you posted, then see how the offspring are like. If you dont like what they producing, then mate the cock with the new hen you got and see what they will yield. it doesnt hurt to experiment. Sometime we wont know what kind of color our bird will produce. Go head, give it a shot.


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## NZ Pigeon

Henk69 said:


> In my opinion not a rec.red, sorry


wat do you propose it is instead?


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## Henk69

NZ Pigeon said:


> wat do you propose it is instead?


Ash red, T-check, Bronze, maybe het rec.red.
Probably a good basecolor for rec.red, but not rec.red


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## NZ Pigeon

And smoky causing the flesh beak? or it could in fact be poor rec red, this would explain the body colour, flights colour and the beak colour all in one..

You are correct though, it could be only het rec red but I am of the opinion this bird is poor rec red.


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## tmaas

Considering the fact that bronze is not common in homers, I think we're looking at an unapproved rec. red. It's obviously dark check pattern which is a plus. If you want good color reds you should try to obtain a pair of dark blacks and cross mate the pairs and then breed the offspring together, (they all will carry rec. red, not only the cocks, as stated earlier on in thread).This will give you some spread rec. reds, and maybe also the dirty and/or sooty gene from the black. These genes help intensify rec. red the same as they do black.


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## tmaas

tjc1 said:


> Is this one better its one of my male crested rollers


This bird is an ash red almond rather than deroy. Deroy would not have blue/black flecking. It could be het. rec. red or bronze darkening the ash red. It's an awesome colored bird.


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## Henk69

NZ Pigeon said:


> And smoky causing the flesh beak? or it could in fact be poor rec red, this would explain the body colour, flights colour and the beak colour all in one..
> 
> You are correct though, it could be only het rec red but I am of the opinion this bird is poor rec red.


Good point about the beak. I will check out my birds too.


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## sev3ns0uls

tmaas said:


> Considering the fact that bronze is not common in homers, I think we're looking at an unapproved rec. red. It's obviously dark check pattern which is a plus. If you want good color reds you should try to obtain a pair of dark blacks and cross mate the pairs and then breed the offspring together, (they all will carry rec. red, not only the cocks, as stated earlier on in thread).This will give you some spread rec. reds, and maybe also the dirty and/or sooty gene from the black. These genes help intensify rec. red the same as they do black.


Agree totally.


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## NZ Pigeon

tmaas said:


> Considering the fact that bronze is not common in homers, I think we're looking at an unapproved rec. red. It's obviously dark check pattern which is a plus. If you want good color reds you should try to obtain a pair of dark blacks and cross mate the pairs and then breed the offspring together, (they all will carry rec. red, not only the cocks, as stated earlier on in thread).This will give you some spread rec. reds, and maybe also the dirty and/or sooty gene from the black. These genes help intensify rec. red the same as they do black.


I was of the same opinion but I think its good to remind people that bronze can cause a similar phenotype



tmaas said:


> This bird is an ash red almond rather than deroy. Deroy would not have blue/black flecking. It could be het. rec. red or bronze darkening the ash red. It's an awesome colored bird.




Thanks for clearing that up, I too suspected that there would be no flecking on a deroy but I have not seen enough myself to state that definitively.


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## Ikon

my new acquisition: 

does she qualifiy as a recessive red?


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## tmaas

In my opinion she does, but would get thrown out of the color class immediately, in a show.


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## NZ Pigeon

She does look rec red for sure, Pair it to a black racer that's got a deep dark black colour to it if you can and then post pics, I was almost convinced that ash red T pat was the best base for rec red but henk and tmaas seem to believe that spread is good. I have heard brown spread is better which would make sense as if the base colour did leak through it would not be as conflicting as the blue is but I doubt you have a brown spread racer there??


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## Henk69

She has the "tint"


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## tmaas

Evan is correct in that spread brown is best, but not readily available in homers. 
Also, keep in mind that the best colored rec. reds have softer feather structure, so if your racing them they won't perform very well.


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## Ikon

unfortunately, I have no brown spread racer. I'll try to look for a brown spread.



NZ Pigeon said:


> She does look rec red for sure, Pair it to a black racer that's got a deep dark black colour to it if you can and then post pics, I was almost convinced that ash red T pat was the best base for rec red but henk and tmaas seem to believe that spread is good. I have heard brown spread is better which would make sense as if the base colour did leak through it would not be as conflicting as the blue is but I doubt you have a brown spread racer there??


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## Ikon

the "tint", is it a good thing? 



Henk69 said:


> She has the "tint"


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## Ikon

thanks for mentioning that the drawback would be that they'll be having a softer feathers. if I will not race them, just include them in toss training to enhance their homing abilities, do you think improved rec. reds. with proper care/training can still home from 300 miles? or their softer feathers will hinder their flying abilities from such distance?



tmaas said:


> Evan is correct in that spread brown is best, but not readily available in homers.
> Also, keep in mind that the best colored rec. reds have softer feather structure, so if your racing them they won't perform very well.


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## Ikon

Now I have 2 red hen and 1 cock. someone is selling this cock, but before i'll made the purchase, may i seek your expertise if this bird is considered as a rec. red.


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## Henk69

He has a dark beak.

I meant the typical rec.red tint.


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## sev3ns0uls

I dont think thats a rec red. Its prob bronze spread. Rec red dont have dirty beak.


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## TwinTurboPigeon

sev3ns0uls said:


> I dont think thats a rec red. Its prob bronze spread. Rec red dont have dirty beak.


Hmm, interesting.. so RR only has white/pink colored beaks?


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## Dnayoungmula

Hi people I just joined can some help me start a thread weres that dam "new thread" button please help Thx


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## tjc1

Hit what section you want so for example General Discussion then look left hand side under the user cp and you will see the new thread button


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## Dnayoungmula

Thank you very much


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## NZ Pigeon

sev3ns0uls said:


> I dont think thats a rec red. Its prob bronze spread. Rec red dont have dirty beak.



IT IS NOT SPREAD. It looks to be het rec red bronze on ash red T pattern to me. I have birds identical.




TwinTurboPigeon said:


> Hmm, interesting.. so RR only has white/pink colored beaks?


Yup, All recessive reds I have seen have flesh beaks, It seems this is consistent no matter what modifiers have been added.


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## Ikon

I see, from what I understand from my favorite gurus in this forum, this cock is not a rec. red.
I will not acquire this bird.
Guys, thank you very much. I'm learning so much from all of you.


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## NZ Pigeon

Ikon said:


> I see, from what I understand from my favorite gurus in this forum, this cock is not a rec. red.
> I will not acquire this bird.
> Guys, thank you very much. I'm learning so much from all of you.


It could potentially throw rec reds if paired to a rec red and may be an alright base for a recessive red bird. If it was cheap I would buy it anyway


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## tmaas

I agree with Evan. The dark colored flight feathers indicate a high probability that it carries rec. red and may be a bird to improve your rec. reds.


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## TwinTurboPigeon

*Does RR have a certain color of nails too?* I have a RR that will moult white feathers and it's nails are brown in color.

Sorry Ikon to be adding questions on your thread.


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