# Ice Breeds



## MaryOfExeter

What are all the breeds that Ice has been established in? I feel like I have asked this before, but "ice" is too small to search the forum for.

Here are the ones I'm aware of.

Stabilized:
- Ice Pigeons (obviously)
- Damascenes
- Swiss Crescents
- Czech Ice Pouters
- Silesian Pouter
- Italian Owls
- Galician Silver Highfliers
- Catalonian Tumblers (Perleta varieties)
- English Long-faced Tumbler
- Syrian Coop Tumbler
- Romanian Argintiu Tumbler 
- Tung Koon Paak
- Thurgau Peak Crested (Ice or Pale? In the ash-red/yellow variety)
- Lucerne Peak Crested (Ice or Pale? In the ash-red/yellow variety)

And possibly Show Type Racing Homers.

Works in progress:
- Birmingham Rollers
- English Trumpeters
- American Fantails

Breeds I would LOVE to see Ice established in:
- Racing Homers
- Indian Fantails
- Frillbacks
- Mookees

What breeds would you like to see it in?



Here is a painting of ice English Trumpeters, although I have never heard of it being introduced into Trumpeters. Probably just a color the artist put on the birds.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoX1hO...rtofpigeons.com/Trumpeters/Ice-Trumpeters.jpg

People are working on getting it into American Fantails. Notice the short beak indicating he used Damascenes to cross with them. Beautiful!
http://easternfantailclub.com/efc webpage 5.htm


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## whiteroller123

I'm not sure but I heard that someone is working with ice genetics on roller pigeons.
If they pull it off, man I would certainly pay money for those ice rollers .


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## MaryOfExeter

Oh crap, I forgot to add that. Yes, James Turner has been working on ice rollers.


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## george simon

*Hi Becky, I was looking throgh my ENCYCLOPEDIA of RIGEON BREEDS,when I stumbled across this POLISH HIGHFLIER pages 657-658, on pages 659-660 the GALICIAN SILVER HIGHFLIER this bird is ice-blue in magpied pattern they are sometimes called Russian Highfliers.* GEORGE


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## dimerro

http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_7/AFUGDBADPRTAYMOZHYA
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_7/FJEPIKFHZLSKXRHDPKK


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## MaryOfExeter

george simon said:


> *Hi Becky, I was looking throgh my ENCYCLOPEDIA of RIGEON BREEDS,when I stumbled across this POLISH HIGHFLIER pages 657-658, on pages 659-660 the GALICIAN SILVER HIGHFLIER this bird is ice-blue in magpied pattern they are sometimes called Russian Highfliers.* GEORGE


I remember those now. Thank you!


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## MaryOfExeter

dimerro said:


> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_7/AFUGDBADPRTAYMOZHYA
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_7/FJEPIKFHZLSKXRHDPKK


So these are Galician Silver Highfliers, and the old shorter faced, crested variety is mistakenly called "Russian Highfliers" sometimes? Looking up Galicians, I found alot of the crested ones along with the long-faced ones.


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## mrottler

Well, I know people have at least introduced it to English Trumpeters, because I am getting some ET project pigeons sent to me so I can work on it myself.
Michelle


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## MaryOfExeter

mrottler said:


> Well, I know people have at least introduced it to English Trumpeters, because I am getting some ET project pigeons sent to me so I can work on it myself.
> Michelle


That's good to hear! I guess that painting was a bit of a standard to work towards!


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## vivagirl

Regarding Ice Pigeons. For the record there is 6 color phases in Ice Pigeons. They range from light blue to almost white. I have them all. Wish I could put pic’s on this site so you could see for yourself. Genetically Ice is not as simple as you would think. To me a really good Ice looks like porcelain. In fact I have photo of a “Porcelain Ice” that I found on the internet. If you want to see the pic send me an e-mail to [email protected]
I keep many breeds but ICE is on the top of my list. In fact I sent the pic to my friend James Turner and told that I wanted one. He e-mail back in 2 seconds and said he wanted one to. He was already in a Ice Roller project so he had what he needed. I can't wait.
Vivagirl


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## MaryOfExeter

George, I was looking in the Encyclopedia of Breeds and saw there are some Ice Catalonian Tumblers. Or at least in the pictures, they look like ice. You may want to check it out and verify that. I also found a picture in there of an ice English LF Tumbler and in the Syrian Coop Tumbler article, it mentioned importing a pair of them in ice color.


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## MaryOfExeter

Also check out these in the book:
- Romanian Argintiu Tumbler 
- Tung Koon Paak
- Thurgau Peak Crested (Ice or Pale? In the ash-red/yellow variety)
- Lucerne Peak Crested (Ice or Pale? In the ash-red/yellow variety)
- Berlin Short-Faced Tumbler

They all have pictures where the captioned mentioned ice. But is it really ice?


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## dimerro

Romanian argintiu tumbler:

http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15f_2_porumbei_rz/EITJOSCLLMRBAPEAGFI


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## MaryOfExeter

Nice to see an updated picture, thank you! Looks like Ice to me.
Here's the picture I saw in the book. Someone scanned them.


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## loftkeeper

I Know That There Are Some Breeders In The West Of England Begining To Introduce Ice In Wests


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## vivagirl

I have posted 3 pic's. This shows some on the varables in Ice Pigeon Color.
Vivagirl


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## MaryOfExeter

Yes, they do vary quite a bit. But I love them all!


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## sreeshs

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, they do vary quite a bit. But I love them all!


Same here


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## MaryOfExeter

Is this Ice? Oh ash-red:

Schoneberger Streifige Tumbler


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## MaryOfExeter

It is confirmed! Ice is in Syrian Coop Tumblers!


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## FrillbackLover

Yea i would lov to see it in frillbacks, maybe i will do that someday


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## MaryOfExeter

FrillbackLover said:


> Yea i would lov to see it in frillbacks, maybe i will do that someday


You should! Shouldn't be too hard as muffed Ice Pigeons and Frillbacks are kinda similar in type.


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## FrillbackLover

Mmm yea i should, i already hav a lot of uncommon colored frillbacks, lov to bring in ice in the breed too, but i think i should do some research on their behavior first.


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> Is this Ice? Oh ash-red:
> 
> Schoneberger Streifige Tumbler


It looks very similar to ash-red Damascenes that I have seen, (I assume someone decided that only having blue Dams was boring). They are very near pure white with intense brick red bars, very pretty. 

I assume this tumbler breed to be ice as well.


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## george simon

MaryOfExeter said:


> George, I was looking in the Encyclopedia of Breeds and saw there are some Ice Catalonian Tumblers. Or at least in the pictures, they look like ice. You may want to check it out and verify that. I also found a picture in there of an ice English LF Tumbler and in the Syrian Coop Tumbler article, it mentioned importing a pair of them in ice color.


*Hi Becky, First sorry that I have taken so long to get back on this subject.I have come to believe that ice is found but called by different names,in Axel Sell's book "Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons" on page 93, under ICE he states "In combination with dilution on a blue bar basis Pearl blue is produced. This coloration sometimes occurs in Danish Highfliers. Sometimes we find them also in Italian Owls and Hamburg Sticken,but usually here are not reccognized as something uncommon and are mistaken as light Ice. Pearl blue and ice can be mated according to the rules diiscussed in the section for dilution" On that page 93 there are two photos figure 69 Ice Damascene and figure 70 Danish Tumbler, pearl blue. This Pearl blue may well be one of the 6 color phases that Vivagirl speaks of. . On the Catalonian that you speak of here again these look like they may be carring ice, figure 735 Little Pearl White-tailed "Perleta", powdered blue white tail cock. This shows what we are up against, Levi called this bird pearl and powder blue in the same sentence. Now looking at the Catalonian in figure 736 here again I would say that the bird is carring ice in its gene pool. Becky take a good look and you will see a frill on these two birds, where did that come from, I would say it came from the ice Italian owl that may have been used to put ice into this breed. *GEORGE


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## redleg23

*Light blue Bar or Powder blue Show Homers*

Take a look at this pair. I had someone contact me in regards to a WANTED AD posting I have for Powder blues. I don't see a "Powder" blue, just a light blue. Awsome looking show homers, though!! Your thoughts?


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## MaryOfExeter

They are "Powder blue" but not "Powder blue" as in Ice. In my opinion.


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## chinbunny

the pictures you posted of th epainting resemble the really light blue archanegl I have. so i would say its in archangels too. Just harder to find.


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## chinbunny

Though he could be a light, or powdered blue too. guess I will have to get a full bodied picture. Posted pictures of the wings in the other thread and that's basically the color the entire bird is.


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## george simon

redleg23 said:


> Take a look at this pair. I had someone contact me in regards to a WANTED AD posting I have for Powder blues. I don't see a "Powder" blue, just a light blue. Awsome looking show homers, though!! Your thoughts?


*I would like to see a picture of the parents of these two birds? I feel that could be showing any onr of the following Pale, Chalky, Pearl Blue or Intermediate Ice keep in mind that Pearl and Intermediate are in the ICE FAMILY.I do feel that they are Pearl / Intermediate. Redlegs do you have any more like these two if so I might be interest in them send me a PM. These two birds have a very nice color which I would like to put into my American Show Racers.* GEORGE


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## chinbunny

Is this guy ice? The bird is a shade lighter then what the camera shows, except for the wing bars.


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## MaryOfExeter

Looks like silver (dilute blue)


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## chinbunny

Thansk mary. i also have another thread going on him about his wing markings. hes out of the toy stencil that flew off on me.


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## redleg23

George, I don't own those show racers. I was insearch of some show homers in ice. I can try to relocate the breeder that contacted me regarding these birds, if your seriously interested in them. I really liked them, and his show record proved it but I choose to go in a different direction.


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## redleg23

I found it... Velo Loft, Gary Wiltrout TX 214-213-4683 email: [email protected]


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## NewHopePoultry

How would one go about breeding ice into homers?


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## rudolph.est

NewHopePoultry said:


> How would one go about breeding ice into homers?


Step 1. Cross an ice bird with a homer would be the only way. The cross should be the best homer you can afford. The offspring of this cross are called the F1 generation.

I'd suggest starting with a clean legged ice pigeon, since they are of field pigeon type and don't have strange heads, beaks or other physical characteristics that might cause problems.

Step 2: Breed the F1 together (to form the F2 generation), raising as many F2 birds as you can. Keep only the lightest of the F2 for future breeding.

Step 3: Continue a again from step 1, use the best (lightest and best homing ability of all) of the F2 generation as your ice bird, and the best homer you can afford.

You would have to do this maybe 4 or 5 times before the birds would look like homers, even though they still would probably not be the best racers. That is 8 to 10 generations of pigeons. If you breed one generation a year, it would take 8 to 10 years.

The reason that ice is so difficult to transfer? Even though the ice gene itself is an incomplete dominant, there are a lot of unknown modifier genes required to make the proper ice coloration. The process is similar to the one for transferring recessive red to a different breed, since recessive red also requires modifying genes for show quality expression.


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## NewHopePoultry

Thanks for the help


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## Print Tippler

I would choose the Galician Silver Highfliers. If they tumbler i would just use a tumbler with out a crest. I flying breed would obviously be better than a non flying


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## MaryOfExeter

Even if the end result doesn't look like a homer, it doesn't matter as long as it can home.


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## Print Tippler

well in that case, i bet a f1 could do at least 50 miles. Its been shown that tipplers can do more than 50, i reckon with slower training and homing pigeons that any flying breed could home to some extent. 300 to 400 miles might take some work, but i don't feel too much. I recall reading of a roller/homer mix that was able to 50 i think? then did 100 but took weeks to come back.


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## MaryOfExeter

Yes, satinette/racers and roller/racers have went 100+ miles.
And let me re-phrase that, to me, it doesn't matter what they look like as long as the bird can make it through the races (not necessarily on time - that can be improved). A bird can follow a flock of homers home from a training toss but that doesn't make it a homer. It makes it a follower. I had some accidental crosses I took probably up to 5 miles or so with my homers and they can back with them. But single tosses proved they were only following them home.


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, satinette/racers and roller/racers have went 100+ miles.
> And let me re-phrase that, to me, it doesn't matter what they look like as long as the bird can make it through the races (not necessarily on time - that can be improved). A bird can follow a flock of homers home from a training toss but that doesn't make it a homer. It makes it a follower. I had some accidental crosses I took probably up to 5 miles or so with my homers and they can back with them. But single tosses proved they were only following them home.


A very important point you are making Becky.

There seem to be more than one 'homing' gene. I have also had crosses that could home (the ones that would come home single toss from more that 10 miles or so), and crosses that couldn't (some couldn't even find their way back home single tossed from 5 miles).

Homers aren't only about homing though, they are also about stamina, endurance and SPEED. That is why I said that only the pigeons that home well and are as light (in color, not weight) as possible should be selected for each next step. 

I understand why the 'look' of a homer is not the most important thing, but the reason I would choose a clean legged ice pigeon, is that they are fairly common, and they have normal beaks. Using a short beaked breed like Damascenes would mean short beaked youngsters (which by the way are beautiful little things - the Damascene head shape is also distinctive and dominant). Short beaked birds prefer finer food and have more difficulty raising youngsters, even if the short beak is not extremely pronounced (as in oriental frills). Don't get me wrong, short beaked birds raise babies fine all the time, but not nearly as well as a normal beaked homer couple, who feed themselves an their young more easily.

An ice highflier breed would work even better than ice pigeons, no doubt, but they are unavailable in my country and I assume rare in the US.


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## george simon

*Well when the show season is over I will be crossing an ice Italian owl to a blue bar racing homerThe young from this cross will be what is called by Joe QUINN intermediate ice, Then mate the F1 to F1 and you will get a Phenotype Ratio of 3 to 1, 3 ice 1 wild type. This is MODIFIED TO THE GENOTYPE 1:2:1 so you will have 1 ice , 2 intermediate ice and 1 wild type. The presence of a third recognlzable phenotype alters the phenotypic ratio,to become identical to the genotypic ratio 1:2;1. I have a few intermediates ICE ITALIAN that I will be mating in the next breeding season and I will get to see for myself. * GEORGE


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## Woodnative

Both Rudolph and George-
When doing a project like this, would you normally set up the initial cross with at least two different pairs of birds..........so that you can use unrelated birds for your F1 to F1 cross (to create your F2 generation). I assume you would not normally breed "brother to sister" of your F1s.......or maybe I am wrong and that doesn't cause as much problem (especially after an outcross) as most people think? Opinion?


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## george simon

Woodnative said:


> Both Rudolph and George-
> When doing a project like this, would you normally set up the initial cross with at least two different pairs of birds..........so that you can use unrelated birds for your F1 to F1 cross (to create your F2 generation). I assume you would not normally breed "brother to sister" of your F1s.......or maybe I am wrong and that doesn't cause as much problem (especially after an outcross) as most people think? Opinion?


*hI Woodnative,Yes I would and in this case, I also would mate some of the F1 back to the homer parents.I would do this as i under stand it the F1 can pass the ICE GENE to their young if this is so that would speed upthings a bit I think. I have another project that I am going to work on. I am thinking of recreating one of the rare breeds. known as thje POSTER,if you have the book"ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PIGEON BREEDS" you can see a picture on page 471. This breed is a HOMER /OWL cross.* ..GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter

rudolph.est said:


> A very important point you are making Becky.
> 
> There seem to be more than one 'homing' gene. I have also had crosses that could home (the ones that would come home single toss from more that 10 miles or so), and crosses that couldn't (some couldn't even find their way back home single tossed from 5 miles).
> 
> Homers aren't only about homing though, they are also about stamina, endurance and SPEED. That is why I said that only the pigeons that home well and are as light (in color, not weight) as possible should be selected for each next step.
> 
> I understand why the 'look' of a homer is not the most important thing, but the reason I would choose a clean legged ice pigeon, is that they are fairly common, and they have normal beaks. Using a short beaked breed like Damascenes would mean short beaked youngsters (which by the way are beautiful little things - the Damascene head shape is also distinctive and dominant). Short beaked birds prefer finer food and have more difficulty raising youngsters, even if the short beak is not extremely pronounced (as in oriental frills). Don't get me wrong, short beaked birds raise babies fine all the time, but not nearly as well as a normal beaked homer couple, who feed themselves an their young more easily.
> 
> An ice highflier breed would work even better than ice pigeons, no doubt, but they are unavailable in my country and I assume rare in the US.


I know someone who has Galician Highfliers  Which are not only ice, but magpied as well!


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## MaryOfExeter

Are these ice? Not that it really matters because they are in Poland 
http://poznanskizhgrido.pl/wystawy/mlode2011/mlode_cz2/target24.html
http://poznanskizhgrido.pl/wystawy/mlode2011/mlode_cz2/target25.html
http://poznanskizhgrido.pl/wystawy/mlode2011/mlode_cz2/target26.html

That first one certainly looks so. Not sure about the other two. In show homer breeds, "powders" sometimes look like ice. But if not ice, what makes them powdered?


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## Print Tippler

I saw many ice turkish tumblers today at my friends loft. They were nice, blue checks and bars


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## MaryOfExeter

Are you sure they weren't "miskis"? Which are pale, like larks and lucernes.


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## Print Tippler

No, they were turkish ice, here are some pictures. He also has some ice Italian owls, or at least did. Next time i go by ill take better pictures.

the checks he had looked the best.


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## Print Tippler

so i guess turkish tumblers also come in ice?... He knew about the breed and everything so im pretty sure he was right. I mean its not peak crested. It is ice right?


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> Are you sure they weren't "miskis"? Which are pale, like larks and lucernes.


When you talk about larks, you should be very careful, there are many breeds of larks, some of which may be ice.

Look at Nuremberg larks in particular. They have a color which has white wings (they are white flights also), pale bronce neck and normal blue bar tail. And they are not white-shields, since they are freely interbred with bars (they're rarely bred to the checks - since bar and barless messes up the perfect check pattern). Doesn't that look like ice to you. White where blue would have been, and black still black! I believe the same can be said about the Lucerne gold-collars, but alas, I cannot find any information on their breeding.

On the other side of the spectrum are Coburg larks, which definitely are NOT ice ;-)


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> I know someone who has Galician Highfliers  Which are not only ice, but magpied as well!


Well, there you have it. The perfect cross for ice homers. You'll probably also breed some great long distance homers from them. Endurance bred in from high-fliers!



MaryOfExeter said:


> Are these ice? Not that it really matters because they are in Poland
> That first one certainly looks so. Not sure about the other two. In show homer breeds, "powders" sometimes look like ice. But if not ice, what makes them powdered?


It is 'powder' that makes ice so icy. Ice birds have a lot more bloom than do non ice birds. So I suspect that powder blues, might be ice (or similar) too.


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## MaryOfExeter

rudolph.est said:


> When you talk about larks, you should be very careful, there are many breeds of larks, some of which may be ice.
> 
> Look at Nuremberg larks in particular. They have a color which has white wings (they are white flights also), pale bronce neck and normal blue bar tail. And they are not white-shields, since they are freely interbred with bars (they're rarely bred to the checks - since bar and barless messes up the perfect check pattern). Doesn't that look like ice to you. White where blue would have been, and black still black! I believe the same can be said about the Lucerne gold-collars, but alas, I cannot find any information on their breeding.
> 
> On the other side of the spectrum are Coburg larks, which definitely are NOT ice ;-)


That was my first thought but I was always told it was pale. One thing I have noticed is the larks with nearly white flights, must either be dilute ice or pale. Ice shouldn't effect the flight color, the pattern color, or tailbar color. The tumblers may be ice but I think they are also dilute or pale because of the flight color. Either way, if they had a gold collar it would be called miski in turkish tumblers.


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> That was my first thought but I was always told it was pale. One thing I have noticed is the larks with nearly white flights, must either be dilute ice or pale. Ice shouldn't effect the flight color, the pattern color, or tailbar color. The tumblers may be ice but I think they are also dilute or pale because of the flight color. Either way, if they had a gold collar it would be called miski in turkish tumblers.


I agree that the Nuremberg larks are pale also (that is why their archangel bronze is gold instead of copper). I just meant that they have to be ice as well, to be so light where darker colors would be expected.


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## Print Tippler

Looks like he has both dilute and intense


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## donn

george simon said:


> *hI Woodnative,Yes I would and in this case, I also would mate some of the F1 back to the homer parents.I would do this as i under stand it the F1 can pass the ICE GENE to their young if this is so that would speed upthings a bit I think. I have another project that I am going to work on. I am thinking of recreating one of the rare breeds. known as thje POSTER,if you have the book"ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PIGEON BREEDS" you can see a picture on page 471. This breed is a HOMER /OWL cross.* ..GEORGE


Hello mr George Simon...i am so far away from thee...i was so exited when finding your special words of breeding here on Pigeon-Talk...i am not into breeding the Poster,but i am. Unknowingly i mated the racing pigeon with the italian owl ...not to create the Poster,but to breed a my racers in a somewhat shorter...more compact racer.... then last year i came on the swiss website ...observing their breeds...and there i found this information...the Poster is actually a Racing pigeon /italian owl cross....can you please reply to let me know that you have received this message?


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## almondman

donn - FYI this post is from 2011. You may or may no get a response from George. _​_


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## bigislerollers

Donn, sorry but George Simon passed away last year. He is one of the "Guardian Angels" now.


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## Vova

Danny Joe Humphrey has chocolate (brown) ice pigeons, He has videos on youtube. 

They are amazing


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## dublin boy

bigislerollers said:


> Donn, sorry but George Simon passed away last year. He is one of the "Guardian Angels" now.


Sorry to hear of the passing of George , I enjoyed reading his posts .

May he rest in peace .


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