# A young pigeon kinda fell into my lap...help!



## CaptainRon (Sep 19, 2005)

What appears to be a young pigeon was in the water behind my boat splashing around. It was totaly water-logged and was covered with some sort of crud that was all in it's feathers. I got him out of the water and set him on the dock. He started to walk away from me and 3 gulls started to go after him, so I picked him up and cleaned and dried him off. I have him in a box sitting on the back of my boat. He'll drink water, but I have no idea what to feed him. He's definately not an adult and it looks like he probably is just old enough to start learning how to fly. Any advice anybody can give would be appreciated. I have absolutely no experience with pigeons or any bird for that matter...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi CaptainRon,


Wow, Pigeons seem to have all sorts of adventures..!

Good thing you came along when you did, they do not really swim very well.


For now, three things - 

If he is less than a month old, you may get some decent guess by refering to the images led to from this link:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

Next, find a way for him to be warm...'warm' as in our body temperature kind of warm, if you have an electric heating pad, put a hand towell on it, and use that, set it to 'low', or possibly to medium if a weakish model, put it in a box with a very light cloth over the top, so the Bird can be off of the heating pad as the Bird elects...hypothermia is dangerous for them...but overheating is to be avoided of course also.

If you do not have an electric Heating pad, then maybe set him up in a bathroom (Toilet lid "down") where a space heater or wall heater might be run to make it a decidedly warm area for him to spend the rest of the night and get truely dry...

Next, see if you can post an image somewhere and a link for us to see it...

Good work there!

Till next,


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Capn

Thanks for fishing the bird out - amazing what you find in the ocean 

If he is newly fledged then he should be able to eat grains, but he may be on the borderline between being fed and self-feeding. I'd put some mixed corn, or bird seed, in a small pot and also scatter a little in front of him and see if he shows interest in pecking at it and eating. 

Maybe you could check him over and see if he has any obvious wounds, too.

I see Phil has posted the link to help find his age 

If he does not show any interest in the food, do get back to us - there are various fairly simple ways to feed young pigeons. The thing with them is they do not 'gape' for food when young, as most other birds do, so the feeding technique is a bit different for them.

John (UK)


----------



## CaptainRon (Sep 19, 2005)

*Swimming pigeons....*

Thanks for the advice, He seems to be a bit more active today. I put some breadcrumbs down in front of him and let him out to walk around a bit. He seems to show some interest in pecking at things on the ground and ate some of the breadcrumbs. I'll go and get some birdseed for him and see how he takes to that. He's more than happy to take a drink of water so I suppose that is a good sign. He seems to be in pretty good health and I cannot see any wounds of any sort.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and welcome to Pgeons.com

Thank you for offering the youngster a place to stay until he gets his flying skills down.

Glad to see he seems fine and eating on his own. Thank you for getting him some wild bird seed.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Captain Ron,

We have a member here that lives in Oakland who goes by the handle of "feralpigeon." I don't want to speak for fp but fp might could help you with this one. fp won't be on until much later today as fp's got a problem (works for a living). If you could email one of us with your contact info, we can forward it on to fp and see if fp can get in touch with you after work.

If you're commanding an aircraft carrier, you might need to check fp's security clearance because fp's quite the feisty one. However, a day in the brig might do fp some good.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cap'n Ron,

Well, so far so good...

Sure, get them some ice Bird Seed and see what happens...if they are an effective self-feeder and peck well and so on, then that is very good indeed.

Often it is the neophyte fliers, who may or may not yet have the pecking and self-feeding skills, whom we find in these various perils. They do not yet have the flying stamina for much distance, and can get themselves into all sorts of troubles, get seperated from their parents, and starve or become ill or emaciated from lack of nutrition.

So, yes, get some nice Bird Seed and see if this one fills their Crop...their Crop is on the front of their chest in effect, above their breastbone, below their neck. You can feel it while it is empty and check it later to see how full it is.

If they are eating enough, they will poop about 40 to 50 moist firm 'Raisen' sized poopies in 24 hours...

Let us know...or if fp takes over...either way...


Now you know also whenever you are out on the Water, to have your eyes peeled for Bird-Overboard...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## CaptainRon (Sep 19, 2005)

I looked on that website and from the pictures it looks as if he's probably about 20 days old maybe. The only thing different about this pigeon is that he has a hooked beak. He's definately a pigeon, is he just a different species?
Oh ya...I put that birdseed in front of him and he's chowing down on it....

Ron


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for your kindness towards this needy youngster.

Can you post a picture of this bird? We would be interested in seing what he looks like. Just want to be sure he is normal, however there are breeds of pigeons with hooked beaks.

I'm glad he is enjoying the bird seed, seems a little young to be picking up and eating seed, but I am glad he is self-sufficient.


----------



## CaptainRon (Sep 19, 2005)

I'll try to get a picture posted so everyone can see him. I'm probably wrong about his age...I can just barely see a little purple and green on his neck, so maybe he is a little older than I guessed. Its kind of comical watching him try to peck at the seed that he slings everywhere. He gets his beak stuck on the threads if the mat that i set him on. I think he's discovered that its a bit easier eating out of the dish.


----------



## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi Captain Ron,

Thanks for helping the poor little water logged pigeon. You can take the pigeon to Wildcare http://form2.relevanttools.com/eis-...http://www.wildcaremarin.org/pages/index.html if the pigeon is not injured. They put down animals which are not releaseable. I'd check the pigeon out with Feralpigeon beforehand though.

I'll give FP a jingle for you!


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Captain Ron, 


You have me worried now with that 'curved Beak' mention and the 'slinging'...might not be anything, but...

Can you post some images somewhere? Or send some to me for me to put up in my 'webshots' ( free posting service, you could google it and do it also if you wanted to post them yourself...) or something?

I am [email protected] if you would want to send images to me...


Get some good closeups so his whole face from ythe front, and also so his profiles are shown...

Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*Out of the Brigg & Feisty*

here...Hi CaptainRon, I not only work but have to run errands and do chores for
Pidgey the Poo after work, so I've been on the run. But I would gladly give a peak at your new aquaintance and talk to you about some of your options. Don't know where your at with it and if you are enjoying your friend and would like to stay the course until this pij is releasable or not. Anyway, check your private email here at PT and we can talk on the phone tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks again for rescuing this bird from the water and the gulls and providing a supportive environment for him/her to get their bearings in.

Best,

fp


----------



## v2rot8 (Aug 22, 2005)

Oh, Captain Ron, I could tell you stories of my little girl slinging seeds all over the place to get to her most favorite tasty treats....PEANUTS!

They learn, these little kids. Something suggested to me was to spread the seeds on a towel. It allows the seeds to "float" a bit, and it helps them learn how to grasp the seeds in their beaks.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

HI folks,

Just an update on Capn Ron's little one. It is indeed a feral pigeon w/a beak that looks like it belongs to a seagull. It should be flying in a week or so. Ron
preferred not to continue with it, so it is here until he/she can fend for itself and I will introduce it into a nearby flock.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ahh sooooo, thank you, Nancy!

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


I'd be interested to see an image or two showig the Bird, and, of course, showing this "Beak"!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

How long were you in the brig?

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> HI folks,
> 
> Just an update on Capn Ron's little one. It is indeed a feral pigeon w/a beak that looks like it belongs to a seagull. It should be flying in a week or so. Ron
> preferred not to continue with it, so it is here until he/she can fend for itself and I will introduce it into a nearby flock.


Wonderful news, fp.

Thank you for taking care of this youngster, any chance of getting a pic so we can take a look at that beak?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hello all,

I actually took a partial second look last night. The bird's on Flagyll, it has a not so bad case of canker in throat. Prominent keel. No peach fuzz that I could see or feel, I really will need to look closer @ feathers in better light. Ron apparently had worked pretty hard on getting the dark gunky stuff off, so I'll have to wait for feathers to be water proofed. The eyes have begun to change 
color, it does squeak, I'll see about it's flying tonight and post a pic of beak.
Pretty spunky little thing....

fp


----------



## CaptainRon (Sep 19, 2005)

Hello all,
Just wanted to say hello to everyone and thanks again to fp and check to see how the little guy is doing. I hope you'll keep me posted on his progress.

Thanks again,
Ron


----------



## CaptainRon (Sep 19, 2005)

v2rot8 said:


> Oh, Captain Ron, I could tell you stories of my little girl slinging seeds all over the place to get to her most favorite tasty treats....PEANUTS!
> 
> They learn, these little kids. Something suggested to me was to spread the seeds on a towel. It allows the seeds to "float" a bit, and it helps them learn how to grasp the seeds in their beaks.



Hi v2rot8,
It seemed like this one liked to make a mess or something....He would start pecking at the seed in the dish i had for him and then would sweep his head sideways really hard and throw seed everywhere. It's kinda funny wathing him. He's in much more capable hands now.  

Ron


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Ron,

Slow to post these requested pictures. Where I looked for the canker was not
the worst part of the canker problem. Pidgey diagnosed correctly over the 
phone. The problem w/beak is result of canker. It doesn't really shut the way
it should because of the prominent hook. After a couple of days on Metronidazole, there is a spot that is "drying" and hopefully will show in pics that I will post over the weekend. The cere had a distinctive line all the way around towards the beak where it was two-toned. The part closet to beak is 
where this drying area is occurring on top. He/she is very feisty, so Pidgey the Poo thought we were a positive match on that account  .

The bird will fly straight at me when I open the door to the carrier trying to get out. Is overall in good spirits and I think will recover well. It will just take some time. It's a young bird as opposed to a squab, I believe. Very cute, and I doubt there will be a problem releasing it. 

I wonder, Ron, if there is a group of pigeons that hang close to your location
or where you found this pij that I could return this bird to. That is afterall it's home and it will remember it's surroundings, friends and family. That piece of info would be great to know about.

Thanks again for everything you did for this little one.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good luck fp...!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*Those pics you've been waiting for*

Hi Folks,

Just a quick update on Captain Ron's rescue. He's still here, been given the usual for rescues, and is improving. Still some signs of canker. 
Here's a link for the pics on his beak:

http://community.webshots.com/album/344830751krZdbt

As you can see, his beak looks a bit like a seagull.....but what's funniest about him is that he makes a sound like a seagull from time to time. Never heard a pij make this sound before! He imprinted on the sounds from his environment at the Marina. Anyway, as he hears the other pigeons around him, he's getting pretty good at converting.

His cere comes in two tone, and a spot at the top started to get a "drying" patch after being on canker meds for two days. The cere is coming down in size and pulling away @ the base a bit. Definitely shrinking.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wow...

Now, what did/does the inside of the roof of his mouth look like?

Was there anything odd or Canker-looking there?

Anything about their poops of a yellow-chaulky aspect?

Just trying to learn all I can of impiricals...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

Thanks for the pictures.

WOW! What an interesting pigeon. It is not overgrowth of the top mandable? It does look thick like part of the beak.

Does he have a hard time picking up seed?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Phil and Treesa,

Yes, he does have trouble picking up seeds. My vet used an emory board to
file back the beaks of birds I brought in to him. Think this would take some time 
with this bird given the size of the hook.But in a few more days I'll give that a shot. Pidgey suggested making him eat off of a brick and no where else. Could give that a whirl. It seems like it is so much longer at this point, I'm wondering if it should be surgically altered. Phil, it looks very similar to other instances of canker, w/redenned streaks on roof of mouth. Treesa, he does have a hard time picking up seeds! Gotta run...

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

You probably ought to file that thing down a little bit to start with, anyhow. It's going to take months to know how that thing's going to turn out. I don't much like the look of it but I'm hoping that it'll be okay after some time. It's what's been done to the "nail bed" that's got me worried.

I think I said "concrete" or something abrasive anyway so if you use a brick, be sure it's a rough one. Also, competition is nice so that he'll hit harder and faster. If you don't have another bird to help out there, you're going to have to fab a big, strap-on beak for yourself so that YOU can do it. Try not to rattle your brain too hard, Feisty, as you're already... uhh... well, you've obviously been... uhh... just don't do it too long and too hard, okay?

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Mmmmm*

with that beak, maybe Marina Beaksy is the FIRST pigeon/seagull cross!!  

I sure hope he/she does well! Do you think that by the time all is healed, Marina Beaksy would WANT to be released??  

Just for kicks, another name possibilty: Jon(athon) or Joan (from Jonathan Livingston Seagull)...


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Hey! The vet used an emery board! That's 1 to 0 for NumberNine versus Pidgey (just kidding! - Pidgey uses a fingernail clipper and I told him I would never use that and use an emery board).

I (still) have a bird with an upper beak similar to yours. The lower beak is at 90 degree to the right (when facing the bird) and wrap around the "mouth". The bird has tissue, like humans, instead of a lower beak. I'll post pics later.

Regarding feeding, a deep dish (3" deep) is doing fine (I'll post pics of that too later). The bird didn't have canker when I found it, I still don't know what it had. Nevertheless it got its Metronidazole for a week. Enjoy your new troubled friend.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess I'm just going to have to post a pic of the bird I have to do that to. The sliver of beak that I have to trim is so small and weak that it just wouldn't rate the effort or even the torque of filing. It would probably bend and give more trouble than I'd want.

This bird's beak is by far worse and the curvature appears to be rooted further back in the main structural section, which can actually be pretty bad especially if there's been a major disruption of the germinative layers of the rhamphotheca. 

Phil's "Crow Baby" received traumatic injury that caused a related problem besides destroying a main underlying structural spar. The distal portion of the beak appears to have withered some and we still don't know if there's any blood flow out there.

When you reshape the beak, your sole objective is to render it serviceable for picking up food items. Re-shaping the distal portion doesn't effect a growth pattern change per se.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, these Beak issues are a subject unto themselves, for sure...

I am going to start some trimming and shapeing of 'Crow-Baby's Beak maybe tonight...

Been looking at it, it seems to have stabalised anyway for a while now and he STILL wants to peck, so...

I will start clipping in tiny increments form that wangley wild end, and see...see if I can remove what is not needed and get it closer to being able to function...or get it to where I might finally try the little prosthetic.

I will of course discover what blood flow there may be to the farther lengths of that upper Beak...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Pidgey,

I was just kidding!  Let's see those pics!

Phil,

For a pigeon, the emery board does wonder. It's very quick and easy. I have no idea about a crow. Beak must be thicker given how many birds they kill...


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Crow Baby" is actually a pigeon, so-named because he was purported to have been attacked as a young chick by (a) crow(s). We don't really want to start discussing his case here because it's hopefully not related. 

Personally, I doubt that "Beaksy's" problem is very severe, but it's the difference between releasability and non-releasability. If the upper beak maintains it's tendency to pronounced curvature then Feralpigeon is either going to have to keep the bird OR she'll be forced to retrain the bird to eat fish and float on water (it was already working on the latter when found so we know how it will vote).

Pidgey


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Well, you got me there on naming the pigeon.  

Some pics. You will have to forgive me for the sometimes less than perfectly focused pics, but she is a fighter. Very tough one to photograph.

Like I said, the lower beak is there and on the left side of the bird (when facing the bird), but twisted at 90 degree to the right and wrapping around the "mouth". The tip of the beak is kind of twisted on itself. Right after the beak, you have soft skin on the right side (when facing the bird) and then something hard about 1/4".

The last three pics are about the food jar. I used an ex-potato salad container, upside down. The cover is stapled to the piece of wood. I used black electrical tape around the opening for two reasons: 1) Once the plastic has been cut, it is kind of rough. The tape makes it smooth and 2) It helps define the opening of the jar for the bird. Sometimes she would try to go through the side to get the seeds. 

Some pics have two pics together, make sure to scroll down. You need Adobe Acrobat reader (you can download for free).

UPDATE: Oct 16: Had to remove one pic (2b) in order to create space for uploading a pic in another thread - I will not delete any other pic - sorry)


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

More pics. Scroll down as the first two files have two pics.


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Last pic of deep dish. The reason the food jar is done this way is to prevent her from kicking the food out. I got tired of always having to put the seeds back in the jar. The jar is always kept full to about 60-80%. She often uses the side of the jar to help her pick up the seeds.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That appears to be the kind of case where the bird may be forever unreleasable, so if it's learned to cope with the problem and adequately self-feed then there's not really even any need to consider beak reconstruction unless it gets worse.

That's "BrokenBeak", isn't it?

Pidgey


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Yep, that's her. Though we don't call her that. After all, the beak wasn't broken per se. Most likely born like that. Lived on french fries.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh man, PLEASE do not use god forsaken "PDF" files as links...

They take ten minutes to load and jerk like crazy if I try and scroll...and all the auto loading 'acrobat reader agreements and garbage...it is HIDEOUS...!

If these are images, why not just put them onto 'webshots' or something...something one can go to as a link and no hassles?

Please????  

Love,

Phil
las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, all...

Hmmmm...I wonder if the little one DID rather try and assume some of the habits of Sea Gulls? It is curious the various details that could suggest they had...

Heck, maybe sme kindly sea Gulls had even fed them off and on somehow or looked after them a little?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Sorry Phil,

You are the first one who complains. If others have problems, just let me know. 

I used a webcam and took pics at 640X480. The resulting bmp (bitmap) file was 900K. Using a software package I have, I transferred it to a pdf file and the size of the file drops down to 30-60K with no decrease in quality.

Loading a 60K file should not be long. I haven't really done a lot of pics posting. 

I signed up and got them on webshot, link fixed (thanks Phil)

http://community.webshots.com/album/464119117nYJPca


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi all,

Phil, if you have the Acrobat program open and then click on the pics it might help. I know you're not supposed to have to, but, hey...
NumberNine, that's some bird you have there. Never seen anything like it poor thing. So lucky to get rescued by you. 

About whether the bird was getting some kind of rearing from seagulls, it's hard to say without direct observation. But one of the reasons that Ron went to the aid of the bird is because it was not just looking like it was drowning, but that a few seagulls had gathered and were "picking" on it. The bird flies just fine now that feathers are cleaned up thanks to Ron's kindheartedness. It is a very smart little bird and mimics the other pigeons here readily, so it may be just a situation where he was mimicking his surroundings.

He heard a cock and hen go through a round of roocoocooing and immediately started imitating the male. That's why I'm thinking it is a male because he did it so well. Sounds like the male version of roocoocoo.

I was a little worried when I read NumberNines' post on faded eyes and put the little guy on Baytril just to make sure. But I'm sure w/a beak like that he 
could easily be suffering from vitamin deficiency. So he's also getting plenty of that as well. I'm going to wait on the filing until it appears that his cere is normal feeling to the touch and the area in general a little more stabilized.

If this is a lifelong condition that is not surgically correctable, then I can't really bring it to Wildcare in Marin as they will put the bird down for sure. Can't have that. 

And thank you so much Pidgey for offering to build a salt water swimming pool and have me ship the bird to you for adoption, you've really out done yourself this time  

fp


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Webshot is nice and easy! So I uploaded the original pics of the bird right after I found it. Sorry for the poor pics quality. 

http://community.webshots.com/album/464140129tTEcqA


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi NumberNine,

The problem is, I'm not redirected to the page your photos are at.
You have to be careful there what link you copy and paste to your posts here,
so always check in preview mode first. I once copied a link to find that I'd given the link to the edit mode for others.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi numberbine,


Thanks!

Yahhh, as fp mentions, your link for 'webshots' aint happenning...

You need to send yourself the "invite others to see" thing, then, you click on 'that' link, and then once you get TO your images, copy-'n'-paste THAT header-link to put here.

At least that is how I do it...and maybe there are easier ways!

Thanks for the "PDF" tips fp, but I HATE trying to do anythig with 'acrobat reader' and it has never been a pleasure in any way to try and use or view anything on...I guess I could leave it 'open' and so on, but it also clogs other functions and is hell waiting to even close the damned thing when disgusted enough I try and get rid of it...

Maybe my computer just hates it for some reason...

Lol...

But it is MISERY to try and deal with...

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, it is a handy thing to have and use. Maybe your program got corrupted or something. Uninstall and then download the freebie and maybe you'll have better luck. Although, I agree, Webshots is very user friendly and a great way to post pics. I was interested to hear how NumberNine had used Acrobat to shrink size for posting here, however.

fpl


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

The following pics were taken two weeks after I found it. A "big" piece fell off. The last 5 pics are from the piece on the right side of the beak (when facing the beak) that fell off. If you look carefully at pic # 14 & 15, where the piece fell off from, you can see a short vein that was bringing "life" to this growth. Fascinating. Anyone has some input or guesses as to what it was? The pics have a yellowish overtone - sorry.

The bird was given Metronidazole, though I didn't see canker and I used Polysporin (w/3 antibiotics) three times a day on that growth.

http://community.webshots.com/album/464140172LDYwSd


FeralPigeon,

I'm using Image to PDF ver 2.3.0 http://www.adultpdf.com/products/image2pdf/index.htm


Thanks Phil for the tip. I would have never figured it out. All previous links working now!


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

NumberNine, do you know why the cere was so yellow???

fp


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

FP,

Sorry, the cere wasn't yellow, it was a problem with the pics. I think it was because of poor lighthing condition and a low resolution. If you look carefully, I think most, if not all pics have a yellowish overtone. The first two batch of pics are not great quality. The last ones I took today are good.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You may have already posted, but what was the reason for this problem??

fp


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Sorry FP, but what problem are you talking about? I'm confused


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

NumberNine said:


> Sorry FP, but what problem are you talking about? I'm confused


Ahhh, the beak, s'bout the beak.....


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> Thanks for the pictures.
> 
> ...


Treesa,

I missed this part of question before, I think you're referring to the two toned darker part of cere. I believe it is actually part of the cere and is discolored. It has shrunk in size since the medication and is pulling away slightly at the underside. I gave in to the urge tonight and did do some emory filing on the tip of the beak. There is still a long way to go. He is really quite the sweety.

fp

fp


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I think he is a real neat looking pigeon, and under your care he will do well, I can't imagine him having to be released someday.  

That has got to be the hardest thing in the world to do.


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

I was walking on the street and noticed this bird with a feather stuck on the top of the beak. I observed the bird for a few seconds and noticed it didn't care. I know enough about pigeon's behavior to know that's not normal.

The bird was about 15 feet up, sitting flat. The feather was partially blocking my view of the whole beak, but I could tell something was very wrong with it. So I walked back to a store and bought whole-wheat pita bread. Took me about 10-15 minutes to catch it.

The first pictures show the state of the bird when I found it. It was emaciated and the droppings were 100% green (no grit).

I've been struggling trying to determine how it happened and my best guess is that it was born like that. It lived next to a french fries truck and rows of benches. My guess is that people fed it fries. The lower beak is all skin with feather. The skin is not streched, but very smooth and normal. Moreover, the beak is 100% developed while the bird is in the egg. At birth, the beak is "full size"


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, not actually "full sized" but fully formed, structurally speaking. There's definitely some elongation that occurs as some of my birds' beaks are 70% as long as some of the eggs. Anyhow, NumberNine, you might go to this webpage and study the actual bone structure of the head and beak:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Beaks are a composite structure with actual skeletal components and fleshy parts overlaid by the keratinous (fingernail-like) portions. There's harder stuff and softer stuff. Where the upper and lower beaks conjoin, those lip-like edges are a much softer material, but not completely dissimilar to the keratinous outer horn.

The very tip of the upper beak actually grows outward on a continual basis as it has to deal with the wear and tear of pecking. The lower beak doesn't do that and so what your bird has left is what it is. I do believe that it had more once upon a time and it's just gone now due to an injury or an infection. You basically got to see the end of that process when the last pieces came loose. 

At this point, if you wanted to emplace a prosthetic, you would probably have to use stainless screws (not found in a hardware store) to attach it with. The risk that the bird could lose the rest of the lower mandible would simply not be worth it as it's eating on its own with no small help from you (I really appreciate that, by the way).

If the tissue underneath is mostly soft, then using a "vetbond" glue to attach a temporary prosthetic extention would probably yield unsatisfactory results. The only reason that I can think of to even try to install a temp job is to aid in preening if the bird's having trouble doing that and that's actually a legitimate concern.

Now, as to Marina Beaksy, I took the photo that I thought I could see the most detail in and processed it a bit:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/464337464/464344958aGNeUI

It's hard to tell for sure but it looks like the tips of both the upper and lower beak may have died. It doesn't really make me think of canker-damage so much as if he stuck his beak in something hot and burned the tip. They will wither like that if the underlying tissue has died for whatever reason. That's about as far as it's going to go, I think, so sanding it off a little at a time might get it to a point (no pun intended... really!) where it'll be functional. If, as you're taking it down, it starts to bleed, that's the point where you should stop.

I originally couldn't figure out what the "two-tone" reference was but I think you're saying that the whiteness of the cere hasn't advanced all the way forward to the front of the nostrils yet. I've seen that a lot so I don't even notice it.

Pidgey


----------



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Eh Pidgey, always picking on me, eh! 

I'm sure you will understand that I often simplify the facts in order to save time. In the context of my post, I felt that the level of details or summarization of the facts, was appropriate.

Thanks for (another) great links. Me too, I've always suspected that the piece that fell off was the basis of the lower beak. We cannot be sure, but the probabilities are high. Yep, I know the upper one keeps growing very slowly, while the lower one doesn't. I have often observed my two pigeons with "very long" and very thin tip. It grows until it breaks, just like nails on your fingers.

The wattle is whiteish. Very normal. Some of the pics, the early ones in particular, are not making justice to its colour.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

NumberNine!

"Picking on you?" If you think I've been hard on YOU, you can't imagine how hard it is to be ME!  I pick on ME unmercifully ALL the time.  Believe me, you're getting off easy!  

I tried so hard to get a decent picture of Charcoal's overgrown beak. The batteries in the camera gave up when I thought I had the perfect shot. It's only been less than a week since I trimmed it again and so it really needs to grow for another month before I can do it justice. I'll have to post one of her later.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Now, as to Marina Beaksy, I took the photo that I thought I could see the most detail in and processed it a bit:
> 
> http://community.webshots.com/photo/464337464/464344958aGNeUI
> 
> ...


Hi Pidgey,

Well, the first theory was yours, and you are allowed to change your opinion after seeing the pic  . It's hard to say about the bird putting it's beak in something hot as there's no way to verify. There are no take out places around there, and it's a squeaker. It is the wharf however, and there are alot of things that they treat the wood with or other toxic things that the bird may have pecked at. There is no distinguishable difference in feel per se, but that is a pretty subjective thing. It's a young sensitive one, the cere is pulling away in places and looks quite tender. It was faily swollen looking before the meds. So, filing the beak until it bleeds isn't really an option here. I figure I'll wait a four or five days and give the old emery board a round again.

Sooner or later, hopefully, it will come down a bit. And I certainly hope it doesn't develop any problems with the lower one. I'll keep my fingers crossed on that one.

Regarding the two tone, I haven't seen such a distinctive line before. I have seen changing coloration in the cere w/canker that goes away w/meds, different than breeding season or youth, and of course, the coloration on a youngster. Perhaps the biggest change will be the shrinking and not the coloration, I just couldn't venture a guess on that one, perhaps because I don't have a loft.

Thanks for the link Pidgey, another great link!

fp

PS-
When will the salt water swimming pool be done, P-t-P


----------



## CaptainRon (Sep 19, 2005)

*Pigeons that think they can swim........*

Hello fp and everyone,
Just wanted to stop in and see what's happening with the little U-boat commander and say hello..... I see he's being well taken care of. Thanks again Nancy for helping out. Does the beak problem stand a good chance of being corrected? Is he still pretty active? Just wondering.....

Ron


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Here is a link to some casual snap-shots I made the other day of a Pigeon Skull.

These show fairly well the underlieing bone structure of the upper mandible, and how the Keritinaceous Beak sheath ( absent from the skull but for a vestigual tip area, ) is overall a rather thin covering...

http://community.webshots.com/album/469522890oHJDLd


I think it is possible, that were the lower tip injured or broken off or injured and stopped growing, then the upper tip, overhanging, might gradually become bent downward from pecking...

Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

CaptainRon said:


> Hello fp and everyone,
> Just wanted to stop in and see what's happening with the little U-boat commander and say hello..... I see he's being well taken care of. Thanks again Nancy for helping out. Does the beak problem stand a good chance of being corrected? Is he still pretty active? Just wondering.....
> 
> Ron


Hi Ron,

Beaksy is doing very well, he's on the mend from his canker which has been knocked down and he no longer shows any growths in his mouth/throat from it. He still has some stabilizing to do on that one however. Not pink just yet. 

He's quite the sweetie and likes my feral DD....He gets regular flying time around the house, and basically likes to imitate the sounds of the other birds, although I've been very amused at some sounds he makes that are much like a particular one that seagulls make. From what I've read, and what some folks are saying, his upper beak will never truly correct and he'll therefore be unreleasable. Would you like to reconsider having a buddie?? No problem, I can get him on track w/his health and you are free to change your mind on that. He is quite the little sweetie.

His lower beak appears to have no damage related to an accident. Without testing we may never know what caused his upper beak to develop faster and grow longer than what is normal. I have been filing it down w/an emery board, but I can only go so far at a time as I don't want to hurt him. 

A vet once told me that by clipping the toenails of a dog or cat regularly, that they don't grow back as long, they get trained back to a shorter length.
Don't know if this will hold true for Beaksy. He is however, doing pretty well w/food in deep dish, and I think it helps to have Pigeon Feed which tends to be larger all around than a wild bird seed mix. 


Best,

fp


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I have 2 pigeons with bad beaks that are scissored. They are both caused from canker. I have deep hooded ceramic bowls that they eat out of. Jack took off a couple times and would end up comming back because he could not eat on his own.
I was filing Jacks beak for awhile until a rehabber told me it wasn't necessary.
I have a mineral block, cuttle bone, and a brick in there. Maybe that helps, I don't know. He seems to be doing fine, better then fine since she has hooked up with Zeke. I've had Jack for awhile now and Darlington showed up a couple months ago and is doing really well.
I don't think that pij is gonna make it on his own.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Kippy,

Thanks for your input. I agree with you that this pijie won't make it on his own.
I have assigned him to the unreleasable category. He is qutie the cutie in all his jouvenile innocence, his tendency to mimick and impulse behaviour is very endearing. He does pretty well with real pigeon mix in terms of self-feeding when given in a deep feeding bowl. His health is stabilizing and his personality blossoming.

fp


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so glad that this youngster with such indearing qualities is in your care, because you truly have his best interest at heart. 

Thanks for the update, and please continue to let us know how he is doing.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 3, 2006)

*i know this is very late in reply,*

but i cant help but wonder if there was ever blood work done on this pigeon? the reason i ask is one thing that stands out while im reading is the beak, which appears to be overgrown? i know nothing about pigeons, mind you, except what ive learned the past three weeks. but in other species of birds an overgrown beak is a symptom of liver problems. liver problems can be fairly treatable, but a blood test would confirm whether thats the case with this guy. hes a really neat looking bird, though.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That was my thought to. It wouldn't hurt for Beaksley to go on a good cleanse, or detox, if you will. 

Cleaning the liver can be done with milk thistle seed, turmeric, DHLA, and Reishi for overall liver health.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I've physically examined Beaksley and his beak isn't overgrown--it almost seems shorter on the top than it should be. The downward curvature is somewhat more pronounced than normal as well. It's really weird and wasn't he rescued as a squeaker-treading-water originally? I think I've said it before but it really looks like a travelling sales-seagull came calling while Papa was at work.

Pidgey


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 3, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Well, I've physically examined Beaksley and his beak isn't overgrown--it almost seems shorter on the top than it should be. The downward curvature is somewhat more pronounced than normal as well. It's really weird and wasn't he rescued as a squeaker-treading-water originally? I think I've said it before but it really looks like a travelling sales-seagull came calling while Papa was at work.
> 
> Pidgey


anytime the beak is different, even if it doesnt seem overgrown, id still check into the liver possibility; if it is the case, then it can be managed with diet and the herbs mentioned above, if not, at least you can rule out a potentially serious health problem. im guessing you are only kidding about the hybrid theory?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Moi? Joke about a thing like that? Neeeeeeeevvverrrr!

Just kidding!

It would take a good bit to go back in this bird's medical history. It is true that he came out of the water with this beak and that he was still a squeaker. Much of what I can (barely) remember were actual conversations with feralpigeon after Beaksley had come into her care (I arranged that, hehehe!) and there were probably a few PrivateMessages as well.

My memory ain't what it used to be, and, if I remember correctly, ain't never been what I thought it was. However, I vaguely remember that we came to the idea that there might have been a case of trichomoniasis that had done some damage. 

What you're suggesting is like when you founder a horse and the hooves begin to overgrow constantly and need to be occasionally shorn everafter so the horse can walk okay (I've actually seen that). Beaksley's beak is what it is and I don't think Feralpigeon has ever told me that it has a constant overgrowth problem. She'll be on here eventually this evening to dispell all the speculation and no doubt tell me I'm wrong on all counts.

Pidgey


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 3, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Moi? Joke about a thing like that? Neeeeeeeevvverrrr!
> 
> Just kidding!
> 
> ...


lol, i had to ask. youd be surprised (or maybe not) at conversations ive had in the past at various animal groups regarding hybrids  

if i may ask, exactly what is trichomoniasis? can it damage the liver? id also wonder what he may have ingested while he was in the water; since everything (including medications) have to go through the liver, some damage wouldnt surprise me. or he could have a mild congenital problem.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, don't know what to say folks....he's never had a blood work up, but he sure can put the seeds away when he has a deep bowl. Now canker can get into the organs, so is it canker setting up shop in the liver? Or did Beaksley get exposed to something at the marina that caused him to be susceptible to canker? Just don't know. In any case, I think a liver detox program usually is 
beneficial regardless unless there are so many stored toxins that it has to be done very gingerly. Consider this, when the liver is impaired, the vitality usually is as well. This guy, while never flying in the wild, is just a kick-butt flier. If I net him, he'll pop out of the net like a gymnast and keep going. I usually end up leaving the door of his cage open for him to return to on his own, which he will. Anyway, the beak doesn't appear to continue it's growth, it seems to have settled in to a certain Jimme Durante level.

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What is Trichomoniasis? It is the disease state of an infestation of Trichomonads, which are flagellating protozoa (that is, a one-celled organism with whiplike "flagellae" used to propel the organism similar to spermatozoa, only not as efficient). Usually, they infest the esophageal tract down to the Proventriculus but may sometimes be found in other places. There is also a navel form, in which they set up shop in the unhealed navel of a newly-hatched chick ("I thought only animals that were "born" with an umbilical cord have a navel"? Nope, chicks in the shell have the equivalent of a navel that connects the chick to the yolk of the egg!)

In the disease state, there is a localized production of leukocytes that creates a cheesy-looking material, commonly called "canker". This exudate can build up to incredible amounts that can literally choke the bird to death. This is the inflammatory response in birds and is roughly the equivalent of "pus" in us. It doesn't have the liquidity though, and, as such, is rather more difficult for the bird's body to deal with.

Now, here's the kicker--often, the birds (especially the adults) live in an equilibrium state where the organisms are present but do not cause the "disease state". The disease is actually an over-energetic attempt of the immune system to dispell the organisms such that the body begins the localized, autoimmune response that can ultimately be deadly to the host. 

Due to the fact that other pathogens can cause the same kind of localized response in other places of the body, there is often some confusion over the true cause of illness in those other places when that cheesy material is seen. We often treat "canker" with some member of the Nitroimidazole family (often "Metronidazole") which have a curious trait in that the molecule changes in anaerobic conditions (as usually found in abcessed tissue) so as to inhibit the DNA repair enzymes that normally would repair cells. This kills anaerobic bacteria, but leaves aerobic cells (like body cells) intact. So, it gets easy to call all such seeming infections as the same thing when actually there can be many different causes.

In any case, when the body is producing too much of that stuff, the effect is that the organs, including the liver, get overburdened with cleanup detail. This crap has to be broken back down to its basic elements for re-assimilation/elimination, after all. As such, the general health of the bird can suffer greatly due to the interference of normal function, and that in addition to the local necrotizing effects. It is not widely understood that if the bird's immune system could just chill out from the git-go and leave the Trichomonads alone in the first place that everyone (both bird and bugs) would be a lot happier and lead more productive lives. 

That's it in a nutshell.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, don't know what to say folks....he's never had a blood work up, but he sure can put the seeds away when he has a deep bowl. Now canker can get into the organs, so is it canker setting up shop in the liver? Or did Beaksley get exposed to something at the marina that caused him to be susceptible to canker? Just don't know. In any case, I think a liver detox program usually is
> beneficial regardless unless there are so many stored toxins that it has to be done very gingerly. Consider this, when the liver is impaired, the vitality usually is as well.
> fp


*Or was he exposed to mercury poisoning from the water he was in, especially being so young?...if he is fine, I would just put him on the milk thistle seed, crack some open and put in his bowl with his regular seed, turmeric, & barley leaf. *


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks, Teresa, that's a good liver cleanse regimine. 

fp


----------

