# Please Help!



## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

......Hey every one...one of the fantails died do to lack of weight i dont have any thing to kill the worms or canker in them and i cant buy any because i cant come up with the money since im only 13 but if u would please help pleaese send me a lil something for some birds or else i will have to sale some to the bird hunters down the street for money but i really dont want to do that so please help me and i will re pay u as soon as i can!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Erik,

I'm very sorry for the loss. Please have your Mom or Dad call me at (949) 584-6696. I'll send you the meds you need for your birds once I know that you have the support you need from your parents.

Truly, you need to know and understand that your birds need food, water, shelter, and sometimes vet care and medicine. If you are not able to provide all these things, then it isn't time yet for you to have your own birds.

I'm willing to help this time, but you've got to step up to the plate and earn some bird care money of your own or have the support of your parents on keeping birds .. they (the birds) don't exist and thrive for free.

I'm very unhappy that you are even considering selling any birds to the bird killers. I think you need to sit down and have a long talk with yourself. If you are willing to do this in a pinch rather than going out and offering to mow lawns, walk dogs, wash dishes, baby sit or whatever, then I again think you are not ready to have birds on your own.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Terry,
You are sooooooooo right ! I got my first birds at 11. One of the stipulations was I had to take care of and support my birds. This meant a year round paper route, a list of snow removal customers, and a group of law mowing customers. It also meant that sometimes school lunch money went towards my pigeons. Perhaps birdboy lacks the maturity to be a responsible pet owner ?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Yes, Warren .. but what do we do now as a group of pigeon loving people? Erik's birds need help, and I DON'T want them sold for dog bait or shooting. You'll find a lot of youngsters here with NO support from their parents. You'll also find very supportive parents until it costs money or is inconvenient. We, as a group, can do a lot for these birds and these kids .. but I'm not gonna do it all on my own .. if you want to sign up for the "Junior League", I'd be most grateful.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Junior League*



TAWhatley said:


> Yes, Warren .. but what do we do now as a group of pigeon loving people? Erik's birds need help, and I DON'T want them sold for dog bait or shooting. You'll find a lot of youngsters here with NO support from their parents. You'll also find very supportive parents until it costs money or is inconvenient. We, as a group, can do a lot for these birds and these kids .. but I'm not gonna do it all on my own .. if you want to sign up for the "Junior League", I'd be most grateful.
> 
> Terry


Terry,
For the benefit of our readers, what is "Junior League" and how do I sign up ?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Warren,

I think Terry was just using a play on words to make a point....as far as I know, there is no "official" junior league. 
Warren, you are new here, and in my opinion, a ~most~ welcome addition..but that means you may not know what Terry is talking about. 
You would not believe the drama that occurs sometimes with the younger members. Terry is absolutely right when she says the parents usually completely shut down when it comes to vet bills or medication. You want a good example? Go to search and check out the posts from member CJ concerning her pigeon Squeakers. The bird needed to see a vet and we had members finding avian vets in her area and actually offering to pay via international credit card for the vet to treat the bird...and what happened? If I recall, the parents would not allow the child to accept "charity" and also would not drive her to the vet. 
When I had an injured feral, members here were more than generous in offering to send me medication, etc. for my bird...most everyone here has a good heart. I took the high road, and insisted that my local vet check out the bird and paid for it and also took it to the nearest rehab place, about 2 hrs drive. Our member Turkey sent me a complete "care package" of spartex, etc. which I returned to her.
I think Terry just wants Erik to "step up to the plate." I am sure she and other members are willing to help him with medications from their "stock" but if Erik is really serious and caring about his birds, he will find a way and insure the support of his parents if he plans on continuing his efforts.
If you stick around long enough, you will see what Terry and I are talking about.

And thanks for the generous offer of signing up for the "Junior League." Glad you are here.

Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Youngsters and Pigeons.com*

Thank you Linda for telling at least one of the stories of youngsters here at pigeons.com. It is a largely sad story with very few happy endings.

I'm way too tired tonight to get into this in detail, but this will be addressed over the next day or two. 

And do note that I have not had a call from Erik or his parents. Tis at this moment 11:40 PM California Time.

Terry


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

I never realized how many of you, Terry and others, who send meds to people who need help with their pigeons. I started noticing this when I joined the yahoo message forum.

Maybe you could talk to admins on this board and possibly set up a donation button? I know you can get them free at the Paypal site and then if people can help with a few dollars here and there, you all can put it towards meds, so you aren't paying for everything out of pocket.

Just a suggestion, but I would be more than happy to help with anything I can. It might not be much, but hopefully it would help a little and I know it would make me feel good giving back to this board.

Izzy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Izzy,some months ago we discussed pooling spare meds etc in order to be in a position to send "Pigeon Aid" care packages out to new rescuers. Two members voluntered to hold the meds and send them out as required by new rescuers and I believe that some of these meds are still in New York and Florida.

However, the main aim of Pigeon Aid was to help rescuers who have found themselves responsible for a sick or injured pigeon out of kindness. It would be unreasonable to expect them to buy a pack of meds for 30 pigeons to treat a single rescue.

This situation is slightly different because it involves someone taking up a hobby that he can't afford to maintain...I have offered help in similar situations as an emergency because I don't want any pigeons to suffer from neglect but I would not want to encourage youngsters to acquire pigeons and then fall on our charity for their day to day care. 

Terry, as you know I can't send out meds to US members when needed because they would take too long to get there, but I would be happy to order some basic meds to be delivered to you as required if you could send them as required?

Cynthia


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*I must look pretty silly*

I have only been reading these posts for a few days, and already I believe it has had more of an impact on me then any of you can imagine. All these years I thought I was a pigeon lover. I have owned pigeons for years, and when I read the love, care and concern from an Izzy, I realize she is a real angel here.
If you would have asked me just days ago, if I would be constantly checking the web pages for news on a lost feral pigeon, I would have thought you nuts !
I am a little embrassed about asking how to join the "Junior League". I thought you had a group here that would help with the birdboy's out there. Apparently you have been sending little care packages and the like on your own. This morning it is Thanksgiving, I am thankful there are people out there like you. It warms my soul, and also makes me so much aware of my lack of effort and devotion. I am late now, I must go to spend the day with family, my thoughts today will be with the Misty's and Birdboy's. 
God Bless


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

*thank you*

Hello taw im sorry they havnt called you yet i just got on the message board because of getting ready for thanks giving but i will have them as soon as it is a good time for you to be contacted they told me that they will by the meds but by the time it would all be said an done i would have lost all the sick birds so ill have them call you as soon as you have time


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Thank you Warren, I sure wish I lived closer to Pa, cause I'd love to give you a hug. 

Hope you have a wonderful day with your family.

Izzy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Junio League*

*I thought you had a group here that would help with the birdboy's out there*. 

Just because that group doesn't exist as yet doesn't mean it isn't a good idea.

Maybe this is something that the fanciers can organise. A mentoring of young fanciers who can in their turn mentor the new fanciers that join as they grow up.

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Erik,

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving with your family. Just have your Mom or Dad call whenever it's convenient for them. I'm going to be shutting the computer down for the evening in a little bit, so anytime tomorrow or over the weekend is fine. I would like to get the meds to you as quickly as possible though, so kinda the sooner, the better.

Terry


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Whew--I'm so grateful I had parents who were supportive. I had a variety of pets when I was growing up and there was no question about taking them to the vet; if they were sick, they saw a vet. 

Just my two cents worth, but I don't think parents should let their kids get pigeons or any other living thing unless they are willing to help the youngsters take proper care of them. It's reasonable to expect a 12 or 13 year old to provide day-to-day pigeon care, but getting to the vet and buying meds is beyond what most kids that age are able to do. That having been said, I also would be willing to help out a young person in a pinch with meds, etc., as long as his or her parents are okay with it. But some parents are naturally going to be suspicious of anyone their child meets on the internet.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sadly parents are right to be suspicious of people that offer help to their children via the Internet. What I do now when I offer anything to a young person is ask them to ask their parents' permission to give their address personal details to any of the moderators (not necessarily me) via e-mail or to ask their parents to contact any of the moderators. 

Cynthia


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Sadly this is true. Yes, I ask for parental permission, too. I gave a pigeon to a young girl earlier this year and made sure I talked to her parents first and she had their permission to be in contact with me. It's a sad and scary world out there. Which is too bad, because lots of young people would really benefit from being mentored by mature folks who have been into pigeons for awhile. I can think of so many pigeon people who got into the hobby as kids because some kind, older breeder took them under his wing, so to speak.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Has anyone heard from the Bird Boy's parents yet ?


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

I'm tickled to see "any" thirteen year old that is interested in birds. This kid is no different then the tens and thousands of kids that came before him and developed a love for the birds at a early age. The fact is if you are going to have things like pigeons here and there some are going to get sick and die, thats just life. Help him if you can but never discourage him !!!!!!

Scott


P.S. never have I taken a bird to the vet and unless there is a major threat to the loft I never will, the bulk of pigeon problems are basic.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

HI Scott,

In my view this forum is about encouraging responsible pigeon ownership and I consider it wrong to encourage anyone, adult of child, to keep pigeons when they cannot afford the most basic of meds such as wormers and when they threaten to "sell the pigeons to the hunters down the road" if a handout is not forthcoming.

In the UK they are introducing a bill that forbids the sale of animals to children under 16 and makes it an offence for the keeper (or the parent of a keeper that is under 16) of any vertebrate to fail to take reasonable steps to ensure the animal's welfare. I consider that withholding medication from captive animals that are sick on the grounds that "animals get sick and die, that's life" is unreasonable and cruel and should never be encouraged.

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pigeons in the 'wild', like any bird, do indeed get sick and die - but we are talking here of birds being kept by someone.

Anyone who keeps pigeons has a duty to their birds to ensure their well being, check their health, and deal with problems - not simply allow them to go downhill and die. They do not maintain themselves - they depend on their keepers to keep them cleanly housed and provide for their daily needs. 

Most pigeon health problems are basic, agreed, *but they still need to be treated promptly and correctly.*

John


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm with you, Cynthia. 

As for never taking pigeons to the vet, it's true that many problems can be treated without going to the vet, and I've learned to treat my birds myself in most cases. But I've had several problems where I was in over my head and the bird would not have survived without medical attention. I view my pigeons (and many on this forum would agree) as pets, not just livestock. Also, I think there is a good argument for taking a sick bird to the vet to protect the rest of the flock. I don't want to throw antibiotics at them hoping to eliminate the problem when simple tests by the vet can tell me exactly what is wrong.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Motherlodelofts said:


> I'm tickled to see "any" thirteen year old that is interested in birds. This kid is no different then the tens and thousands of kids that came before him and developed a love for the birds at a early age. The fact is if you are going to have things like pigeons here and there some are going to get sick and die, thats just life. Help him if you can but never discourage him !!!!!!
> 
> Scott
> 
> ...


Scott,
I agree with the premise that a young man of thirteen should be encouraged.
The apparent problem here is the lack of support and supervision of the parents. Without that, we as responsible caring pet owners, are really between a rock and a hard place. 
Unforunately, there are thousands of animal shelters across the US. They must kill everyday because of the millions of adults who lacked responsibilty.
There are millions of dogs and cats that live in homes, and do not get the basic medical care. Is it any wonder, that a kid can have some pigeons in a box behid the garage, and the parents could care less if they are getting basic humane treatment and medical care ?
And yes Scott, pigeons just like people do get sick and die. The problem with your response is it comes across like a shrug of the shoulders....oh well, we never took mom to the doctor because most health problems are basic, so she died, people do that...
I have not taken a pigeon to the Vet yet, first of all because they are rarely sick and I have yet to find a local Vet who really knowns anything about pigeons. The state has a place to take stool samples of birds, and can do a post mortem, but our past experince of pigeon guys in this area is the State or Vet simply prescribes a broad spectrum antibotic. Most of us are convinced, that thirty or so years of pigeon keeping prepares us better to treat a pigeon, then a Vet who has never treated one.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I have not yet heard from Erik or his parents and am hoping that we have not caused a problem for him by our "parental responsibilities" comments here. Erik, if you see this, please either call me or privately e-mail me your snail mail address so I can get a pigeon care package off to you tomorrow.

Terry


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

I think it's great that someone Eriks age is showing a great interest in pigeons. But loving pigeons and being able to actually care for one or more are 2 completely different things! There are certain animals that I would love to care for but I don't because I either don't have the time, don't have the space, or simply feel that I couldn't support the animal to the best of it's needs! 

Erik if you love pigeons then you need to make a decision more for the pigeons well being. Maybe you need to wait a few years until you can get a little more spending money so you can give them the care they need. Or better yet try to sit down with your mom and dad and just explain to them how important pigeons are to you and make a family decision about it so that you can enjoy the pigeons now. But just remember that just because you love pigeons doesn't mean you can handle all their needs right now.

I really hope that everything works out well for you!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Erik, if you're still out there, I apologize if my recent posts have discouraged you. We don't want to discourage you--we just want to help.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I spoke in great length with Erik this morning. I learned a lot about what is going on with him.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi All,

I just spoke with Erik's father .. had a nice conversation .. and will be sending a package of various pigeon medications and supplies tomorrow. Let's all continue to help and be supportive of Erik and his lovely birds!

Terry


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

*thanks every one!*

Hey everyone like Terry said my dad called!I can`t wait untile i get the meds so the can be healthy again! and i had no clue that Terry knows Leon Stevens! lol ill have to ask him about you when I got back up their thank you guys/gals so much!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I hope your pijjies will soon be on the road to recovery Erik.  
Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

John your post is a 100 0/0 on the money. But it's a process that needs to be "learned". How many beginners young or old do you know that havn't had birds go down on them ? every year I get 1-4 youngbirds that go down on me out of a 100 raised and thats with everything right within the loft. It just happens. Beginners need the guidence to learn, and in my book there isn't a kid out there that doesn't deserve that chance. It's hard to get in trouble when you ae in your backyard playing with the pigeons. Cyro - I sure hope that bill dies in it's tracks, I'm going to bring that up to with some of my friends over there, I'm curious about thier thoughts on it.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well Erik .. Leon won't know me .. I just rescue and rehab pigeons, but I do try to follow the who's who in the pigeon world when I can. You be well yourself and keep your birds well!

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Beginners need the guidence to learn, and in my book there isn't a kid out there that doesn't deserve that chance. * 
This is true. Speaking of books, how about starting out with the basics before handing a pigeon over to a youngster? Reading & researching the hobby of pigeons, the do's & don'ts, if you will, comes to mind. 
EXAMPLE: A 16 yer old wants to start driving. It would be insane, not to mention illegl, (by the way Cynthia, you got my vote on the bill) for a parent to just hand over the keys of the car to that young man & say, "Here you go son, now you be careful with that car." First & foremost he needs to learn the do's & don'ts of driving which is done by reading the driving manual. Once he has proven he is capable of taking on this most responsible task, then it's time for for him to get behind the wheel *with* a responsible person at his side. 
The same should hold true in the case of a youngster wanting a pigeon. 

*It's hard to get in trouble when you ae in your backyard playing with the pigeons. * 
On the contrary, it's quite easy. If a person, child or adult, doesn't know how to take care of something, sooner or later it gets broken.
*"Playing* with the pigeons" sounds like some sort of game. 
Unfortunately, more times than not, there's always a loser in games people play.  

As a rescuer/rehabber of pigeons, my point of view on the 'do or die' theory obviously differs from those of some, *not all*, fanciers. 

Here are a few thoughts to ponder from a rescuer/rehabber's standpoint:
*Rescuers* cherish the lives of *each* & *every* pigeon. 
*Rescuers* are the ones who pick up the pieces after someone has intentionally tortured a feral pigeon & spends countless hours trying to put them back together again. 
*Rescuers* are the ones who will do whatever it takes to nurse a fancy/pet pigeon back to health, or secure a safe haven for them, after they have been discarded, for whatever reason.
*Rescuers* are working on a wing & a prayer as the pigeons they acquire are generally on an emergency basis & for some, this is a first time experience. Many don't have the tools, if you will, to treat an ill or injured pigeon. Their only thought at the time is to do whatever is necessary to help, & maintain the life of, the bird. The fancier, on the other hand, has the luxury of researching what is involved in raising pigeons, prior to purchasing them.

*Please note:*
My point of view regarding a rescuer/rehabber vs. the fancier is made in the general sense & not directed at any one individual.

Cindy


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Erik this package that Terry is sending isnt a magical fix . You need to call me so that we can try to figure out why you have a problem and what can be done about it. If need be I'll get someone down there to look into it if I can.
Scott 
209 772-3445


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks Scott. Hopefully with your help we can zero in on what the problem is and get the proper treatment going.

Terry


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

So Cindy here we are analizing my words and post again in the most negative light that you can think of. This kid has a problem and your concern is with the words I use, go figure. Cindy it sounds like you are better suited to offer this kid help than I am. Go for it.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*So Cindy here we are analizing my words and post again in the most negative light that you can think of. * 
Actually Scott, I was *agreeing * with your statement that beginners need guidance to learn & that kids deserve a chance. I was also giving a suggestion on how that could be accomplished.  as to where the negativity lies.

As for my reply to your statement, "It's hard to get in trouble when you ae in your backyard playing with the pigeons". That was my opinion. How you choose to perceive it, is up to you. 

*Cindy it sounds like you are better suited to offer this kid help than I am. Go for it.*
No Scott, I'm not *better suited* than you, or anyone else, to offer Erik help. My post never implied that I was. 

I believe it was suggested though that Erik separate the ill pigeons from his healthy ones & take one of the ill pigeons to the vet, which seems like a logical plan to me. 

The sarcasm isn't necessary when replying to a post you disagree with Scott.

Cindy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pigeons get Ill. a beginer with out knowledge has to find out what to do. It takes time in the pigeon world to learn of different deseases that afect pigeons. And what helps contribute to the problem. A clean loft, clean fresh water and feed. dry conditions. And basicly hope for the best. Meds are best for preventive and treatment. But reading asking questions is learning. NO one knows it all. And sharing info. people learn. Young people are the FUTURE of the pigeon breeding sport/hobby. Those that find an interest. Can turn out to be a top breeder some day. replacing the ones before. I see help has been offerd. And taken. The next step is still more learning. A club or other local breeders can offer support. Check local for assistance there. The pigeon hobby is a great hobby. What all breeds do you have and raise? how big of loft do you have. Do you feed a regular pigeon mix. Do you clean your waters out daily, and Are the where the birds can not get droppings in the water. Is the loft dry. These are just questions to see other facters. Just these points alone improve loft health. Good luck stick with the birds and check local breeders to learn from.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

As usual Robert another good post. Health must come first and keeping them healthy evolves around proper loft management. Robert how about a thread telling us the steps you take to keep "your" birds healthy and happy. And hopefully we can get others imput on proper loft magagement and hopefully help people avoid situations such as this one. The experiance with the birds should be one that is good for both the fancier and the birds and when done properly health is a breaze. Knowledge is the key.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Erik, I'm so glad that Terry and your dad talked and you're getting some help. Hope everything works out and your birds' health is restored.


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