# My tumbler Pigeons are active but not eating well



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Hi all
I am vijay from Bangalore, I'm a fancier from 20 years and have never experienced these kind of problem, help and advice is appreciated.
My birds are very active but not eating properly and lost weight , their droopings are abnormal ONLY IN THE EVENINGS (like muscle loss) if i hand feed they are digesting well but not gaining weight.
Have done everything possible but no use, not getting exact reason, but I know from my experience there is some disease because my friends are also facing the same as they had mixed our birds . Kindly help


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

That's diarrhea. No blood visible, so probably not intestinal worms. Given that other flocks are having the same symptoms then not a result of poisoning. Infectious disease is likely. There are several that produce diarrhea: salmonellosis, coccidiosis, hexamitiasis.

Given the color, it is most likely Salmonella infection. (My #2 guess would be hexamita infection.)

Perhaps add to the birds' diets any food that weakens, interferes with, or kills Salmonella, and which won't harm the bird, such as: cloves, ginger, garlic, oregano, thyme, basil, rosemary, spearmint leaves, coriander seed, cilantro leaves, and aloe vera. Fresh is generally better than dried, but even dried forms still have antibiotic and antiviral effect.

Raw, unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar diluted in water would help. Probiotics would also help, preferably avian / bird probiotics.

If you decide to use synthetic antibiotics, the natural foods that fight Salmonella won't interfere* with the antibiotics, and each will add its own anti-Salmonella effects.

* If adding turmeric to the bird's food, use a lot rather than a little. It's safe for them and higher doses damage Salmonella bacteria, but small doses actually appear to increase growth of Salmonella in lab experiments using petri dishes. That may not hold true in live birds' intestines, but to be on the safe side, where turmeric vs. Salmonella is concerned, use a lot or use none.

Natural Remedies for pigeons


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Doves Witness said:


> That's diarrhea. No blood visible, so probably not intestinal worms. Given that other flocks are having the same symptoms then not a result of poisoning. Infectious disease is likely. There are several that produce diarrhea: salmonellosis, coccidiosis, hexamitiasis.
> 
> Given the color, it is most likely Salmonella infection. (My #2 guess would be hexamita infection.)
> 
> ...


Have done everything what you have mentioned , even changed entire flock, cages, wooden boxes, bought new birds but the disease is back in 3 days.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

What feed do the birds eat?


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Doves Witness said:


> What feed do the birds eat?





Doves Witness said:


> What feed do the birds eat?





Doves Witness said:


> What feed do the birds eat?





Doves Witness said:


> What feed do the birds eat?


First we feed finger millet regularly,after that mixed grains ( wheat,green gram,Bengal gram, horse gram,black gram etc) in summer we give soked Chick pea and groundnut ( all these are given separately in feed trays)


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

We are facing this problem from past 20 months, birds are in the same condition


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Are the other breeders near you using the same feed formula? After reviewing the nutrients in the various foods that you listed, I noticed one thing in particular. All of them except millet have high amounts of lectins. Lectins (such as hemagglutinin) are the reason that pigeons shouldn't be fed dried beans unless they are cooked. Symptoms of lectin toxicity / poisoning in humans include diarrhea and weight-loss.


*High amounts of Lectins:*
wheat
green gram / mung beans
bengal gram / chickpeas
horse gram
black gram / Urad dal
groundnut / peanuts

*Low amounts of lectins:*
millet


*Three possible approaches to lower lectins in the birds' diet:*

Sprout the seeds.
Cook the seeds.
Replace part of the high-lectin ingredients in their diet with foods that have lower levels of lectins.
EDIT: Soaking the seeds appears to be effective for different seeds at different durations, see below.



> Soaking alone causes a significant decrease in anti-nutrients, as the antinutrients are leached into the soak water. *Soaking for 18 hours removed 65% of hemag-glutinin activity in peas*. *Soaking for 24 hours at room temperature removed 66% of the trypsin (protease) inhibitor activity in mung bean, 93% in lentil, 59% in chickpea, and 100% in broad bean*.
> Then as germination proceeds, anti-nutrients are degraded further to lower levels or nothing. Soaking for 12 hours and 3-4 days of germination completely removed all hemagglutinating activity in mung bean and lentil. Soaking for 10 hours and germination for 3 days completely eliminated amylase inhibitor in lentils.62 Normal cooking removes most or all of the anti-nutrients.











Natural Toxins in Sprouted Seeds - International Specialty Supply


Natural Toxins in Sprouted Seeds NATURAL TOXINS IN SPROUTED SEEDS: SEPARATING MYTH FROM REALITY By Warren Peary and William Peavy, Ph.D. Natural toxins in food has become a hot and controversial subject recently. In the last few years, some popular writers have attacked sprouts (particularly...




sproutnet.com






Any of the methods should immediately reduce the diarrhea if lectin toxicity is the source of the problem.


*Low-lectin foods:*
millet, fonio (small millet), sorghum (milo, durra, jowari), teff (Williams lovegrass, annual bunch grass), white rice, flax seed, hemp seed, sesame seed, black/white/green peppercorns, pine nuts, garlic, ginger, turmeric, fennel, basil, dill, rosemary, coriander, mint, carrots, apples, leafy green vegetables, broccoli, raw honey, sweet potatoes and yams, taro root, okra, radish, kelp, coconut.


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Anyway they are not eating much, we give them white rice vegetable twice weekly (not eating that also properly)others feed finger millet ,jowar and occassionally mixed lectins.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

If lectin toxicity is the problem, then no matter what else they are fed, if they are still eating toxic levels of lectin they will continue to show symptoms of toxicity. Perhaps as a test, reduce the amount of lectin-rich foods for two days and see whether the diarrhea stops.


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Doves Witness said:


> If lectin toxicity is the problem, then no matter what else they are fed, if they are still eating toxic levels of lectin they will continue to show symptoms of toxicity. Perhaps as a test, reduce the amount of lectin-rich foods for two days and see whether the diarrhea stops.


Have done that also , they will go even light.
Only in the evenings their droopings are loose white(that too one or two drops), in the day they are tight but excreting white more.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

If not food, how about the water? Are the other breeders in the area using the same water supply as are you? One of the lab reports mentioned Klebsiella, The study linked below found that bacteria in 15% of water sources in one area of India.



http://ijpsi.org/Papers/Vol2(12)/I0212038042.pdf


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Doves Witness said:


> If not food, how about the water? Are the other breeders in the area using the same water supply as are you? One of the lab reports mentioned Klebsiella, The study linked below found that bacteria in 15% of water sources in one area of India.
> 
> 
> 
> http://ijpsi.org/Papers/Vol2(12)/I0212038042.pdf


Checked that too, no use.
By the way one of my Friend who is facing the same is far away from my place, like 150 miles.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Two sets of birds 150 miles apart but experiencing the same symptoms? Without using the same sources of food or water? That seems strange. Is there anything in common between the two of you? Same brand or source of grit?


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

We in 6 lofts are facing the same problem .
Another what we have observed is birds which are well trained left outside is not coming back or abnormal flight behaviour and low performance.


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

And also they weigh little more in the mornings


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Cherkurvijay said:


> Another what we have observed is birds which are well trained left outside is not coming back


To what do you attribute that? Are the birds happy in the loft, or perhaps overcrowded?




Cherkurvijay said:


> And also they weigh little more in the mornings


If millet is always available, perhaps they are eating more millet during evening and night. Given that the diarrhea occurs in the afternoons, that would appear to indicate that when eating more millet they show no symptoms, whereas a decrease in consumption of the millet and increase in lectin-rich foods may be a factor during the day, which again suggests lectin toxicity.


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Doves Witness said:


> To what do you attribute that? Are the birds happy in the loft, or perhaps overcrowded?
> That is the problem we are facing, they are not overcrowded- we have enough space.
> 
> 
> If millet is always available, perhaps they are eating more millet during evening and night. Given that the diarrhea occurs in the afternoons, that would appear to indicate that when eating more millet they show no symptoms, whereas a decrease in consumption of the millet and increase in lectin-rich foods may be a factor during the day, which again suggests lectin toxicity.


If they were eating more millet, there would have no problem at all and we don't give access to lectins whole day. 
We regularly inspect each and every bird as we have given them separate boxes


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

You have a very nice looking home for them. Do you let them free-fly outside every day?



Cherkurvijay said:


> If they were eating more millet, there would have no problem at all and we don't give access to lectins whole day.


That would only be true if they are eating more millet *instead of* the foods high in lectin. That would be the same total amount of food, with a decrease in lectin-rich foods, and an increase in millet.

But if they are eating a *greater total amount of food*, they could still be getting *the same toxic levels of lectin*, along with additional millet.


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Doves Witness said:


> You have a very nice looking home for them. Do you let them free-fly outside every day?
> 
> Thank you, we have to let them out and train them now for one month as we have compititions starting from June first week.
> 
> ...


They are not eating much,and also as i know by my experience they have some disease but can't able to figure out.


----------



## beachwood45789 (Jul 15, 2014)

Hi, have you ever fed your birds real pigeon feed with corn peas milo safflower


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Cherkurvijay said:


> They are not eating much,and also as i know by my experience they have some disease but can't able to figure out.


Well, if it is disease then at least it seems to be something within the digestive tract, where it can be treated directly by substances given orally. As opposed to diseases of the blood or other organs. You could feed them every naturally anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral, anti-parasitic food that is available in your area. If it is is bacteria / yeast / virus / parasite infection of the intestines, then such foods should produce a notable change in the frequency and/or consistency of the diarrhea. If nothing changes, then it wouldn't seem likely to be an infection.


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

Hi 
Now they are eating well but not gaining weight,
And also not performing, what if they are suffering from malaria? 
Taking from blood samples, tests are also not accurate ,one gave negative and another one gave positive.
What is the best treatment for pigeon malaria, kindly help.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Try black seed (nigella sativa, a.k.a. "black cumin") as a permanent addition to the birds' diet.

"The results showed a high therapeutic effect for MENS [methanolic extracts of _Nigella sativa _L. seeds] with a progressive decrease in average parasitaemia rate from 18.17% before treatment to 0.73% at the end of treatment (p<0.05), while _Butalex_® was able to suppress the parasitemia rate from 18.90% before treatment to 0.23% at the end of experiment (p<0.05)."








The field efficacy of Nigella sativa and Berberis vulgaris methanolic extracts against Haemoproteus columbae


The methanolic extracts of Nigella sativaL. seeds (MENS) and Berberis vulgaris L.(MEBV) were investigated for treatment of Haemoproteus columbae-infected pigeons (Columba livia domestica). One hundred twenty naturally-infected pigeons were randomly divided ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Cherkurvijay (Apr 29, 2021)

I guess we are getting close, now they are eating well and performance is also improved,after treating with NIGELLA SATIVA and chloroquine @5mg per bird for 15 days.
But they are not gaining weight even though eating ENOUGH (food is not absorbed fully), I guess they are also suffering megabacteria (Avian gastric yest) AGV .


----------

