# Soft shelled eggs...and two at once



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

*Deformed eggs...and two at once*

Hi Everyone,

Had another odd thing happen today with some egg(s) Lucy laid today. Lucy laid an egg sometime on Monday, it was her first one of a set and it was normal, hard shell, smooth, good colour etc. This morning I noticed that she seemed a little off and if she was in distress a bit. I knew she was getting ready to lay her second egg so I dismissed her behaviour. 

Sometime between 10 and 11am this morning I found 2 more eggs on the floor. One egg was normal sized, but with a very chalky looking and feeling shell. Another strange thing with this egg is that it's got a concave "crater" in it. The other "egg" was only half formed, very small and more like a reptile's egg with the soft shell. It's only got a shell on one side and the other side is just covered with the egg membrane itself but the shelled side is extremely poor.

She has oyster shell grit that she eats, I give her vitamins and she also eats the vitaminized pigeon pellets that contain good levels of D and calcium. I'm a bit confused as to why she has laid these deformed eggs today. I'm also very confused as to why there were 2 more eggs today when there should have been one, that she'd even lay this 3rd, very badly deformed egg at the same time as the second, not so badly deformed egg.

I just find it very odd that she would be calcium deficient but she must be! She lays a set about every 3.5 weeks and has been for a long time now but that shouldn't be giving her any trouble. 

Take a look at the pictures and if anyone has any input to offer, that would be great.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Brad,

I sure hope Lucy will be OK!!!

Do Runts have problems with egg laying...that you know of???

Maybe there is something wrong with her internal development??

Sorry I can't offer any help but, hopefully, someone will have some suggestions for you!!

Please give Hugs and Scritches to ALL and EXTRA ones for Lucy!!

Shi


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Sorry about Lucy's egg laying problem, Brad! I know you provide excellent nutrition, including mineral supplements. One possibility is an infection of the egg canal, which is what Mieke has. My veterinarian put her on Clavamox for three days before egg laying, continuing through three days after the last egg.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's very strange, Brad. I think Terri B may be onto something worth looking into. We all know your birds have the best of care and nutrition, so it must be something else. 

Terry


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Brad, 

Definitely get some more calcium into her, preferably the supplement you add to water or a more concentrated form from the vet. Despite giving my birds crushed oyster shell, I have one hen that laid eggs like that. They are difficult to pass and if they rupture in the process you have a medical emergency. Your hen might not be able to extract the calcium from the oyster shell adequately due to her body chemistry and there might not be enough in the pellets to meet her egg needs. The chalky rough shell is also indicative of not enough calcium. I was able to solve the problem with the addition of the supplement to my hen's water and now, when she lays, I also give her the concentrated form after the first egg is laid to make sure there is enough for the second. So far it has been successful and she lays nice smooth eggs with a hard shell. The other thing that can happen with not enough calcium is they need it for muscle contraction to push the egg out. If too low, they can get egg bound. Learned that when my cockatiel became egg bound and the vet gave her calcium injections to get her going along with some other medication.

Hope you can remedy the problem she is having.

Margaret


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Brad,

I'll let those who know more be the ones to give you some good advice....

But, just wanted to say that I hope that it's nothing to worry about and that Lucy will be back to normal real soon.

Linda


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Brad

Sorry Lucy is having these problems but what Margarret said makes good sense to me. I hope she doesn't lay any more like this.

BTW, did you ever get another runt?


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hey Brad, 

How's Lucy doing?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Sometime between 10 and 11am this morning I found 2 more eggs on the floor. One egg was normal sized, but with a very chalky looking and feeling shell. Another strange thing with this egg is that it's got a concave "crater" in it. The other "egg" was only half formed, very small and more like a reptile's egg with the soft shell. It's only got a shell on one side and the other side is just covered with the egg membrane itself but the shelled side is extremely poor.



Hi Brad, 


I think sometimes their system can benignly 'hic-cup' in a way...

If two Ovum slid down the chute just a little apart, then her system would have been trying to make both into well formed normal Eggs, but the available Calcium being drawn from her Bones, for the time of their passage, would be insufficient for two, even if enough for 'one', so, these two have between them, the amount of Calcium all tolled, which otherwise would have gone into one...with the first Egg getting the Lion's share, and, the second, getting not much.


Thats my guess anyhoooo...

Hope she feels alright now, I am sure it was uncomfortable for her having this happen...


Good luck..!


The dented one once it hardens some more in the Air, and if kept lilghtly humid thereafter as she broods it, if it is strong enough to be brooded...just might be fine, viable, and ultimately pip...might be too fragile though...



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HI all, 


As far as I recall, Birds draw materials for making Egg Shells, from reseviors which in practice, are their Bones.

Available Calcium given them will have nothing whatever to do with their Egg making, untill that Calcium is metabolized, assimilated, molecularly integrated with other elements and molecules, to be instituted into their Skeletal system, to then join the general resevior from which these molecules are drawn and re-assembled, when needed for producing the Shells of Eggs.

Egg Shells, and Bones, are not only 'Calcium', but, Manganese, Boron, Magnesium, and discrete other elements-molecules, most of which are elemental Metals or molecules composed of them and other elements.

Calcium, we may recall, is a Metal.


Egg Shells, as Skeletons, are made of assembled Molecules whose primary elements are Metals.


Mere or excessive Calcium suppliments, or any single suppliment, will not have the correct other elements, nor per-se even be absorbed at all, nor per-se metabolized constructively, unless other things are present in the Hen's diet...and or most of the suppliment will merely pass on without being integrated into the Hen's system at all.

They do best acquiring Calcium and the other attending elements from Grains, small Fruiting Bodys variously, Greens, small Fruits as-such, which have plenty of these things in them for the Hen to make use of, and to make use of safely.

We hear endless mentions of Calcium Suppliments, while we hear virtually nothing about the kind of balances in which all the Calcium they would ever need and then some, would be present naturally, with no suppliments.

Wild Birds do not get suppliments, and, all in all, their Eggs and Skeletons will be found to be as perfect and raliable as anyone could hope for.


Too, Calcium suppliments can interfere destructively in Calcium up-take mechanisms, or, aditionally, have destructive or delitarious effects on the Hen's Kidneys, Heart, Circulatory Cystem, Joints and Nerves.


A well balanced diet, as close to a "Wild' diet as possible, will be found to show no need of potentially dangerous or naive administration of suppliments, for addressing problems, which an incorrect diet creates in the first place.


As for me, though my prior post has not appeared yet oweing to how I am being 'moderated' for ever, I do not think this instance at hand is one which suggests a Calcium deficiency, but, rather, I would think the Hen merely had two Ovum happen to begin their journey, whichever one accidently, and in close following, instead of one Ovum...or instead of a double-yolk Egg resulting from a closer proximity.


Anyway...just those thoughts...


Love,

Phil
l v


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Brad,
sorry to hear your hen is having egg laying problems.
This is a frecvent occurence here with my hens. I guess it is related to not having direct sunlight even though they do get their vitD supplements and calcium of course, but I guess it is not the same as direct sunlight.

My Whitney started laying those eggs even when she was a balcony bird, so I don't know what is going on. My vet doen's t know either.
When Whitney had the first soft shelled eggs I supplemented her with calcium and then for a while her eggs were normal. Two years later she had eggs with no shell and developed egg peritonitis. I tried direct sunlight, vit.D and calcium and antibiotics but it didn't help. My vet diagnosed her as having a problem with her shell producing gland and performed a hysterectomy (that gland is in the uterus). She's been fine since.

Kay has been laying those eggs on and off. In between the eggs are normal.

Angel had it once and then stopped laying all together. Same with Fran.

I guess the best thing to do is to watch her while you are giving her calcium, vit supplements and direct sunlight or full spectrum light.

Reti


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Research suggests it isn't calcium deficiency. I'm going with the double ovulation theory. When this happens in chickens they tell me protein and minerals are being used to make feathers (if during a molt). If not molting, then it is an issue of absorbing and using nutrients, not always the same as not getting enough nutrients but an issue of being able to use what she is getting. This is a health issue some individuals of all animals have, including my sister. She can metabolize magnesium glycenate, but not magnesium caltrate. It was affecting her reproductive stuff. Perhaps, like her doctor, you may explore changing her supplement types but not increasing amounts. The correct magnesium encouraged her absorption of calcium and her unusually painful ovulations subsided. Ovulation is fairly universal. lol But this is just a theory of course. I know relatively little about doves but a lot about reproductive organs.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, all...


I was thinking too...if this does not repeat in future laying cycles, then it will have almost certainly been a double Ovum which was timed this way on accident to compete for available Calcium et al during the journey down-the-duct.


If it happens again, then, one would wish to focus on how something is not-right with her system.


I have only seen one such 'soft' Shelled Egg that I can remember...and it was in 1980, and a very very young Hen who should not have been laying anything anyway, and she layed it in the middle of the living room floor, no mate, no nest, she had no idea what to do with it, and did not go back to it.


I decided at the time, it was just her system trying out some of it's functions, and I never saw another one.


Hope all is fine with your Hen there, and you can chalk this up to a fluke...


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

Thank you for the overview on the egg production process. I agree with you, that this hen was probably dealing with two ovum at once and is most likely the reason for the soft shells. That did not occur to me and I knee jerk responded with "give more calcium". I am going to have to rethink my approach to the whole calcium issue based on your post. These are the times that this forum is so very valuable. It pools the resources of a great number of experienced people foro which I am extremely grateful.

Brad, how is Lucy doing?

Margaret


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2007)

Brad,
I know how you worry over your birds so this is something that has to be taken very seriously. Everyone who posted has an excellent handle on some of the things that may have gone wrong. 
Lucy might have an inability to metabolize the calcium she is getting in the form it is being given. She may need a different compound of calcium. Also, she may not be getting the right combination of calcium to magnesium. She may not have enough Vitamin D to metabolize any calcium. She may have an infection somewhere in the oviduct or she may have something going wrong with the gland that produces the shell. If there was any fluid leaking from the half formed egg in the picture, she may develop an egg peritonitis. 
These are all very possible and real problems. I know you have a vet that you use and frankly, although I don't know what the vet could do in order to try and diagnose this, I strongly recommend that you take Lucy in for a checkup and a consultation.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hello everyone, 

Sorry to be responding so late. I appreciate each and everyone's input in regards to this "anomaly". Lucy is doing just fine, thanks. She seemed a little weak and wobbly after the first few days of laying these two (bizarre) eggs. I did notice that just prior to laying these eggs, she was drinking abnormal volumes of water....like she instinctively knew what she had to do in order to expel these eggs as easily as possible. 

Afterwards, I immediately started offering her more Nekton - T multi vitamins that I'd slacked on somewhat. I'd been focussing on other things like ACV, probiotics and garlic due to moulting and "breeding" stress. I also figured that the pellet diet I supplied with fortified vitamins; specifically vit D3 and calcium was sufficient, there seems to be a very delicate balance there. I guess I was wrong to assume that my hens were receiving adequate amounts of each vitamin & mineral to serve them properly.

In any case....Lucy and all my pigeons are doing fine, thanks. Lucy hasn't laid anymore eggs since and is happily courting with her mate, Eggbert. Her behavours, actions & poops don't show a bird in any kind of distress now.

Lucy, is doing well as is Ricky and Eggbert and while they continue to go through their moult on and off as expected. I have nothing else to report of consequence.

Thanks again EVERYONE....and Maggie, NO....I haven't found a mate for Ricky.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


You mention - 



> I guess I was wrong to assume that my hens were receiving adequate amounts of each vitamin & mineral to serve them properly.



There is no reason I can think of for you to say that or conclude that.

She has a Skeleton, her Skeleton is the reserve/storage for all Elements which are used for making Egg Shells.

Extra materials are stored at liesure, via confluent and descrete and mysterious processes, and, are later called on and used when making Eggs.

There may be no problem at all in any manner...

Rather, merely, that two Ovum had slipped the gate, instead of one, and, instead of making a double yolk, they were just far enough apart while being so close togather, for her system to try and make two seperate wholely shelled Eggs of them at once, while allocating only enough Calcium related materials, which the usual 'one' egg would have required, since one Egg at-a-time is what her system was expecting, and what her system is designed to do...and these 'two' were so close on eachother as to be mistaken for 'one'.


I would not fault yourself or the diet you provide her...and, again, I would not conclude that there was anything 'wrong' or pathological in the first place.

If the third Ovum had slipped the gate or began it's journey down the Oviduct a couple days later, I am confident it would have come out perfectly, and so would Egg No. 2 also, since they would have each had their normal allocation od Shell Materials given them.


If this continues to happen, then I think we can decide something is 'off' anyway...and even still, it might not be from anything lacking diet wise per-se.


See what happens with her next clutch...my bet, is all will be fine from here on...and she will make nice perfect Eggs, spaced normally, and ( only ) 'two'...


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT NEWS, BRAD!

YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I LOVE THOSE RUNTS!! APPRECIATE THE UPDATE!

PLEASE GIVE THEM LOVE, HUGS & SCRITCHES FROM ME!!

Shi


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Brad,

Thanks for updating us. It great to hear that all the birds are doing so well.

Linda


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Brad

Thanks for the update on the beautiful Lucy I'm really glad she has had no further problems.

Hope you can find Ricky a real cutie.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Glad that Lucy is doing well and enjoying the attention of Eggbert!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks again everyone for your responses, 

Phil, I meant to mention that I think you could be onto something with your double ovulation "theory". I'd never thought of this either but what you've said makes complete sense to me. Thank you for understanding and acknowledging the fact that her first egg was fine, but her 2nd and 3rd eggs (laid at the same time), were not. If two eggs were developing at the same time, then it *does* make sense that she wouldn't have had enough calcium to produce normal shells on both. 

She hasn't laid anymore eggs since then, and it's been a few weeks now. Normally she lays about a week after an abandoned clutch but hasn't this time. She is trying to moult and perhaps her reproduction cycle has been put on hold now for this...I don't know. She had been an egg laying machine for months and even before being with Eggbert. I noticed that she's slowed down a bit AFTER being with Eggbert though.

I have noticed that Lucy always appears to be looking for something, like she's craving something and I don't know what it could be. I get the sense that she is lacking something in her diet because of her behaviour. My other two pigeons don't give me this impression however. But with Lucy, she'll go from dish to dish;looking at the contents, then to the next, not finding what she wants there and so on. Sometimes I'm not sure if it's sunflower seeds she's looking for or not because she just loves them as do all my birds. I only give these in smaller quantities and as "treats" every few days or so. The diet I offer my birds consists of pellets as a base, then I add popcorn, flax seed, red milo, brown rice, safflower, mung beans, peas, and lentils. 


I will just have to wait and see now how any future eggs are and see if the vitamin supplements appear to help. I do know that I've never had any problems in the past with Henny and her eggs, all were well formed, hard shelled and smooth. However, she didn't lay as much as these two hens do. All of Ricky's eggs have been good as well, but she has also gone on a hiatus of sorts and probably due to moulting. All the birds are still moulting right now, on and off in spurts.


Thanks again folks,


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


Does she get fresh Greens?


If not, she might find the satisfactions she is seeking...!


Kales, Endives, Mustard Greens...these are ideal foods, containing plenty of Calcium and other elements, in a form which anyone will find easy to assimilate effectively wiht no burdons or liabilitys, as well as being very good aside from any Calcium interests.


I never would have known this were it not for seeing the ferals in the alleys brousing and decimating various low 'Weeds', and, for years ago, seeing my House Ferals decimating our House Plants, with the guidance of 'Elmo', a wise old Hen who was the defacto Matriarch of the flock.


Once we saw that, ( and her showing everyone to eat spent Match Heads from the Ash Trays, ) we started buying them their 'own' fresh Greens ( but never Lettuces, or Spinach ) , and then they left our Houseplants ( and Ash Trays) alone...



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

No, none of my pigeons get, eat or receive any kind of fresh greens or sprouts etc. It's not that I don't understand this practice or want for it. It's just that my birds are so domesticated, that they don't see these "things" as sources as food whatsoever. They just don't recognize these items and are EXTREMELY reluctant to try them. Runt pigeons have always been bred under domestic circumstances and they are never left to 'forage' on their own, it's just not what any breeder would allow because of their limited flight abilities. This breed lives it's entire life indoors or within specific coops (usually) and "controlled" by humans. They simply cannot survive properly when left to their own "devices"....and if you know what I mean.

I've tried on numerous occasions to offer my pigeons, shredded carrots, broccoli, lettuce etc, but they are afraid of these things and these perishables always go uneaten and discarded. It's very hard to get domestic and especially older pigeons to try these things when they are not used to them. 

I know that I can keep trying and leaving these vegetable matters out, but it worries me that they will spoil, left to be trampled on in the birds own feces for hours on end while I sleep through the day...I work nights


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hi Brad, glad to hear that Lucy has not had a repeat of the double delivery. I didn't have any luck, either, offering chopped greens to my birds. I found a way to interest them by growing lettuce and kale in a pot, then placing it in the pen several times a week. Picking their own seemed to be more natural for them than eating chopped veggies from a dish.

Some of the birds were more interested in digging in the pot dirt, which triggered me to order several different types mineral blocks. I offer oyster grit, red grit, red mineral powder, red mineral pick pot, magnesium block, tan mineral block (contains seaweed). With this buffet, I still have one little hen that digs in the lawn, so the search continues.

Each individual has their own body chemistry and it's a balancing act to offer what they need to thrive. One major improvement was when I started using Winsmore in the birds water. Mieke's white neck feathers now have the luscious sheen of really good vanilla ice cream.

Good luck with your flock!


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

*



Some of the birds were more interested in digging in the pot dirt

Click to expand...

*I noticed that myself. I thought maybe they were just playing around. I would also find marks of digging in my backyard and I know it wasn't from my dogs.

Interesting!

What kind of lettuce do you grow and what kind of soil do you use? I was always worried if they added anything to potting soil that might make the birds sick.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 



If you have any particular Pigeon who spends time with you, you can work with him or her first.


If you get one to do it, then the others will want to try it when they see that one doing it.


Shredded is not so good, as for the fresh Greens.



Just take a Leaf of Mustard Greens or Collard Greens or the likes...and with some Scissors, make paralell cuts an inch and a half long, and about 1/8th of an inch apart...then, 45 to 60 degrees over, do it again so you have a few hundred 1/8th inch 'Diamond' shaped pieces, or do as much as it takes to gat a good rounded Teaspoon full of them.


Just set these next to a small Seed pile, in a pile of their own, and see what happens.


Too, you can show your candidate Pigeon how much you like a fresh Leaf, by nibbleing it conspicuously and hamming up how good it is, and, then holding it out for him or her to try.


These two methods work fairly well.


But the best of all, is once one of the Pigeons gets into it, then the other will wish to eat it also.


My Doves are into it, and fly over to peck off bits of Greens from my Sandwhiches I make....as well as I set up or hold whole Leaves for them to peck off bites of also.


Seems like 'my' present Pigeons need work though, as the ones who were into it were released, and I had not kept on the fresh Greens often enough for new ones to learn it, or to remember they knew about it.

Yet, the same ferals these ARE, know it, and browse the Weeds and so on, eating all the leaves off some of them...leaving denuded 'stems'.


Lol...


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I give my birds greens fairly often. They seem to prefer kale or chard to anything else. They don't like the dark lettuces and won't eat broccoli. I chop the leaves fine, much like Phil describes and put a pile of them in a flatish dish. The hens particularly like them and it isn't long before the pile is gone.

The other thing I did was to plant nasturtiums(don't know if that is spelled right) outside the fly pen. The plants grew into the pen and they love both the leaves and the flowers. I knew they are used in salads for humans, so felt they should be OK for the birds. I have no idea of what kind of nutrition they provide if any. I have seen ferals nip the tiny buds off clover when they can get it, so planting a pot of clover and just having it where they could access it might also be a possibility.

Margaret


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

_Possibly,_ another suggestion for feeding greens...I use this with Squeaks. Of course, he's an indoor pet, so don't know how it would work in other situations.

Squeaks is curious. One day I was in the kitchen and he was there too. I was making a salad and accidently dropped a small piece of lettuce (romaine, if I remember correctly). He nailed that piece *fast* and then looked up at me, with an expression, I swear, said, "Got more?"   

He does like the dark greens best and I just shred a small piece and drop them from a height of about 3 feet or so. He gets the greens and I get to laugh at his enthusiasm. Sometimes I will drop a couple at a time to see what he will do. He gets 'em every time! The bird can MOVE! 

For what it's worth...

HUGS and SCRITCHES to Ricky, Lucy and Eggbert, Brad...

Shi


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

KIPPY said:


> ...What kind of lettuce do you grow and what kind of soil do you use? I was always worried if they added anything to potting soil that might make the birds sick.


I've used romaine and mixed salad greens for some variety, planted in organic potting soil. Tried spinach and kale - both rejected.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, Margarret, Shi and Terri...

Thanks for the input about greens, sprouts, veggies etc with pigeons. I will try to persevere more with these and see if I can get my 3 birds at least curious about them. I'm not going to hold my breath however but we'll see....

Lucy laid her second (perfect, smooth shelled and normal sized) egg yesterday. Don't know if this was a result of the extra multi-vitamins or not. But in any case, I'm thrilled that she's back on track and that everything appears "normal" otherwise.

Had a scary thing happen earlier today...I was vacumming Lucy's nestbox as usual and around her. Today she was being much mor aggressive and assertive and actually got "trapped" in the vacumm. Her frontal crop and chest was basically sucked into the vacuum, UGH! I was horrified but luckily she wasn't hurt or phased by this. I watched over her for awhile and she was none the worse for wear...THANKFULLY! Had she been a sparrow, buggie or smaller dove, her days would likely have been over or at least cut drastically!

that's it for now...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Had a scary thing happen earlier today...I was vacumming *Lucy's* nestbox as usual and around her. Today she was being much mor aggressive and assertive and actually got "trapped" in the vacumm. Her *frontal crop and chest was basically sucked into the vacuum*, UGH! I was horrified but luckily she wasn't hurt or phased by this. I watched over her for awhile and she was none the worse for wear...THANKFULLY! Had she been a sparrow, buggie or smaller dove, her days would likely have been over or at least cut drastically!


 That WAS a close call, Brad. Sure glad Lucy is OK.
I would be scared to death to vacuum around my birds, at least within 'suction' distance.

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hmmmmm...might come in handy if they are Egg-Bound..!


( just kidding..)


Hey Brad, 


Unless your Vacuum evacuates to the outdoors, or, has one fantastic suoer scientific filter...it is really quite dangerous to Vacuum Bird droppings and detritis.


Viruses or Bacteria and Moulds which would normally be encapsulated or bound up in these materials, when Vacuumed, can be sent right through the Filter and will remain in the Air a long time, to be breathed in my you and the Birds and anyone else.

Granted most Viruses and Bacteria will perish from dessication, so would not longer be viable, but Molds abide dessication, and some Viruses or Bacteria might not be perished yet too.


Make sure your Vacuum vents to the out of doors if you are going to be doing this.


Don't give me any more grey hairs than I already have!

Lol...


Best wishes,


Phil
l v


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

Well, yesterday Lucy did seem a little worse for wear, but not drastically so. It appeared that she was a little uncomfortable after the vacuum incident. I got the impression from her behaviour that she might have been a little sore or perhaps that her chest got bruised from becoming stuck in the vacuum hose. She seemed a little more subdued and reluctant to move around as normal. Otherwise, she is fine and I don't believe there will be any other problems from this, thankfully!

Most times, vacuuming around her isn't a problem and she is quite at ease with the hose cleaning up around her. It was just a strange thing to happen and how she was being more aggressive towards it. Normally as well, I am not quite so cautious because she stays still but this incident has given me some food for thought. It would have been a nightmare if her head had have become stuck in the hose!!!!! 

Phil, I remember very well that you're not a fan of vacuums, but I need to use one indoors and in my bird room. It's a pretty good shop vac and has double filters on the intake apparatus. No, it doesn't filter outside but you also have to remember that my birds are in a glass bubble of sorts. I only have 3, they are not exposed to other animals or birds and I also have an air purifier in their room with a certified hepa filter. I myself wear a mask while cleaning up after them and I often open the windows to allow fresh air and circulation into the room. I offer the best that I can and to ensure their wellbeing but I know it's not perfect.

I know you worry but circumstances are quite different for us as you rehab and rescue wild pigeons off the street. The health issues you would likely encounter are not at all what I would probably have to deal with. Exposure & recirculation of different viral, bacterial and other pathogens is very limited with me.

Thanks for the concern though, I know you are just looking out for the well being of my birds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 



You are welcome...


Just wishing you the best..!


Phil
l v


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