# Probiotics



## kramer9802

Does anyone know anything about this stuff? A guy in my club recommend I buy some from star-labs. Is it good stuff? Where do you buy it?

Thanks

kramer


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## lawman

well you just entered the world of the snake oil salesman, so beware what you buy and from whom.

many an oldtimer used powdered milk on the feed. In many ways it acts the same as the current probiotics. Its has additional benifits of being vitaminized as well. (many of the current probiotics are not) basically you use approx. three tablespoons of powdered milk on the feed with a binding oil of your preferance. (i use garlic oil or similar)


Here is a link to an article that talks about the use of both pre and pro-biotics and in much better detain than I could.
http://www.albertaclassic.com/probiotics2.php


there are many different links of good quality probiotics, here are a few links for you to check out on the subject, these are all good products but dont mix and match them pick the one you want to use and use it fathfully for at least an entire season before trying a different one: 

http://www.bioavionics.com/index.html 
http://cjccombine.com/primalacad/ (star labs)
http://vitakingproducts.com/
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-pro-biotics.html


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## Cricket

I bought human grade probiotics from my local health food store. I open the capsules and sprinkle it into the water. Ask at the health food store and they will show you what they've got. I recommend the kind in the refridgerator section. It is a live culture that way, and capsule form is powder inside. Good luck.


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## Skyeking

Probiotics have become a preventive measure I use on regular basis. I have even used it in treatment of cases of coccidiosis and other gut diseases.

It re-establishes the gut bacteria allowing healthy gut flora in stressed birds, and builds the immune system as well, and allows uptake of nutrients, as it slows transit time.

If you do a search on PROBIOTICS" you will come up with a wealth of information on it.

For general maintenance you can purchase an avian probiotics like pro-bios, but for heavy duty dosing use a human grade, such as Solaray,in the refrigeration section of your local health food store.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> well you just entered the world of the snake oil salesman, so beware what you buy and from whom.
> 
> many an oldtimer used powdered milk on the feed. In many ways it acts the same as the current probiotics. Its has additional benifits of being vitaminized as well. (many of the current probiotics are not) basically you use approx. three tablespoons of powdered milk on the feed with a binding oil of your preferance. (i use garlic oil or similar)
> 
> 
> Here is a link to an article that talks about the use of both pre and pro-biotics and in much better detain than I could.
> http://www.albertaclassic.com/probiotics2.php
> 
> 
> there are many different links of good quality probiotics, here are a few links for you to check out on the subject, these are all good products but dont mix and match them pick the one you want to use and use it fathfully for at least an entire season before trying a different one:
> 
> http://www.bioavionics.com/index.html
> http://cjccombine.com/primalacad/ (star labs)
> http://vitakingproducts.com/
> http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-pro-biotics.html



Hello Law Man,

You posted some good material. The only question I have is regarding your suggestion not to mix and match. I would suggest just the opposite, as I use about five different kinds and deliberatly mix and match. I do suggest that the use of probiotics is not used more then three or four days a week,...just my two cents. If I can find it, I will post comments from one of the pigeon vets.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Probotics*

Here is the link to a Dr. Colin Walker I was looking for. http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/

You will need to find "Articles" and click on that, a wealth of information here. I have used Dr. Walker's Probotic mixture and it is good, but perhaps the most expensive on the market. It should come as no surprise, that he recommends his own brand of product. 

Probotics is not rocket science, so I have a lab mix up my own personal formula, because I don't want to pay for all the marketing, but I still use several brands other then my own, because I get mailed product from various sources hoping for an endorsement. And I am always looking for something better.


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## Skyeking

I don't recommend using probiotics more then twice a week, unless rehabbing a bird with coccidiosis or another bacterial disease. In my experience it has wonderful benefits in treatment, as well.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Trees Gray said:


> I don't recommend using probiotics more then twice a week, unless rehabbing a bird with coccidiosis or another bacterial disease. In my experience it has wonderful benefits in treatment, as well.


 Treesa,

You might just be right about 2 days a week being the "normal" dose. There are times in training and racing of YB's that there is a lot more stress and contact with other guy's birds. I am not sure what might be worse, using once or twice too many times, or not using often enough.


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## lawman

Hi Everyone,

Lots of good comments; The reason I said to kramer9802, that he had just entered the world of snake oil salesmen is quite literally, because you can find probiotics and prebiotics in almost every outlet that has pigeons supplies. They are all different in quality and price. For the new person ether getting started in pigeons, or the old salt who is finally admitting to himself that his buddies are using them in order to beat him, or anyone in between, who is not familiar with them, but just want to give them a try; I say go slowly and beware!

I agree with Trees Gray that at least in the beginning go slowly and no more than twice a week. I personally only give it once a week in the off season, and then I increase it to three times a week during racing and breeding. I also increase it after a found of medication.

Now I personally think that the best probiotic you can give your birds is also among the most affordable, If you talk with some of the old timers who used to win a lot, I’d bet they would mention it too, maybe not, but it was an old flier almost 25 years ago that first told me about it. 

Its powdered milk, that’s right I said, *POWDERED MILK*. Next time you’re in the store take a look at the ingredients in it. It’s virtually identical to the higher priced probiotics, at least the ones who actually admit what’s inside, and its vitamin fortified and has iron to boot, *HUMAN GRADE ALL THE WAY*. 

Now as for the off season; I give a teaspoon on every four cups of grain, with your choice of oil, I prefer ether virgin olive oil, or good 4 in one oil with garlic in it, alternated of course.

During racing and breeding season; the above is given twice a week, alternated with brewers yeast given in between. Now with the brewers yeast I give chalated minerals for the bonding agent on the feed.

Now I’ve got to admit I’ve used the high priced stuff too, but in the end it’s the old way's that have worked best for me. Now before I give away any more secrets I'll leave you to think about what I've just wrote.

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Law Man,

Are you really sure ?


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## lawman

I know, I know, 

Too simple to be certain........ so go check it out at the grocery store. Pick up a box of powdered milk and check out the ingrediants for yourselves. I use the Carnation Brand myself, my brother who also has Racing homers uses it as well. Matter of fact he was the one who talked me into going back to the basic's in the use of probiotics. Until I come across something that works better and doesn't cost an arm or leg......i'll be sticking with the powdered milk and for an alternate brewers yeast. 

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*My Cousin works for the FEDS !*

OK,

Law Man, I will check out my local Grocery Store. I hope you are correct, otherwise I will have my cousin issue you a citation !!!


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## Skyeking

Is it this one?

oops, that isn't the one is it?


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## lawman

the box looks similar.

lawman


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## Pidgey

What would powdered milk have to do with Lactobacillus spp., Bifidobacterium spp. and Streptococcus spp.? Those are the true workhorses of Probiotics and they can be killed by processing. You generally don't need to replenish an active community in the gut unless there's reason to suspect that it should be done. Pigeons don't do the stupid things that we do like eat pizza at 9:30 PM or drink CocaCola. All they have to worry about is eating off the floor after a Salmonella-carrying mouse has been by or other stuff like that.

That said, that's why we both (humans and pigeons) ought to have probiotics from time to time. It's not something to make them (or us) race better, it's more to ward off disease. The powdered milk might help them race for a completely different reason but I sure didn't know that it had active cultures of probiotics in it.

Pidgey


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## lawman

The following is a excerpt from the Australian Racing Pigeon Journal

Gordon Chalmers explains it better than I can and I highly recommend that everyone read the entire article for themselves. its in the 11-17-04 issue...


'You never really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother'- Albert Einstein.

Probiotics

Probiotics consist of health-promoting bacteria that improve the balance of organisms in the intestines by selectively suppressing harmful bacteria. Although the means by which probiotic bacteria work are not completely known, they may:

1.	modify the local bacterial community in the intestines, 
2.	insure the improved use of feed or by enhancing its nutritional value, 
3.	improve the response of the bird toward disease, 
4.	Improve the quality of the environment. 

A wide range of organisms including different species of algae, yeasts, and various species of bacteria are used in probiotics. 

It is known that probiotic bacteria can compete with and exclude disease-producing bacteria in the intestine, i.e., probiotic bacteria actively prevent the colonization of potential disease-producing bacteria in the intestines by the production of lactic acid, and by competing with the disease-producers for attachment sites in the intestines (hence the expression, 'competitive exclusion'). 

As well, they may well stimulate immunity in the bird or animal; they may stimulate appetite and improve nutrition by the production of vitamins, by detoxifying compounds in the diet, and by the breakdown of indigestible components. 

There is more and more accumulating evidence that probiotics are effective in inhibiting a wide range of disease-producing bacteria and even some viruses in certain species of animals. Although probiotics may not cover all situations, they are nevertheless a more positive approach to controlling disease, compared with the overuse and misuse of antibiotics in the sport. 

With the above said its the whey in the powdered milk that is the real key, the additional vitamins, iron and calcium, don't hurt ether.

Whey

Whey is the thin serum of milk that remains after the curd and cream have been removed, and is one of two major proteins found in milk (the other is casein). Whey is actually a very complex protein made up of many smaller protein sub fractions called peptides. Many of these subtractions are found in very small amounts in cows' milk, usually at less than 1%. For example, one of the subtractions is lactoferrin which makes up approximately 0.5% - 1% or less of whey protein derived from cows' milk (whereas human milk may contain up to 15% lactoferrin). The importance of lactoferrin is that it appears to be the sub fraction of whey that has anti-viral, anti-microbial and immune modifying and enhancing effects. 

Whey also contains a high level of the milk sugar lactose. The importance of lactose in pigeons is that it is a nutrient for a number of bacteria that make up probiotics, and thus, aids in the production of lactic acid by these organisms. Because a number of disease-producing bacteria such as Salmonella spp. (paratyphoid) prefer to exist in an alkaline environment in the intestines, the production of lactic acid by probiotics shifts conditions in the intestine to the acid side of normal and can drop the numbers of paratyphoid organisms by as much as 97% and more. Just as importantly, paratyphoid bacteria are unable to use lactose as a nutrient in their life processes, so the use of lactose in outbreaks of paratyphoid may be very useful to probiotic bacteria in their production of lactic acid but not at all useful to the paratyphoid organisms.

From the above we find its the milk sugar lactose that make up many of the popular probiotics. 

I have also found it interesting that some of the older books and articles from several different sources recommended yogurt, especially in youngsters that were failing to thrive. Now everybody with there own brand of probiotic boo hooos if you even suggest it. I say it cant hurt when a small amount of yogurt, whey protein or powdered milk (unconcentraited whey protein) is added to the water or feed. 

I say why pay through the nose for Probiotics or prebiotics when we already have good sources of it made for human consumption at a much lower cost. But as always to each his own......

Lawman


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## Skyeking

*All yogurts are not created equal*

I would never recommend yogurt for pigeons. It is not tolerated well in children under 5, and it wouldn't be good for pigeons either.

However, I would recommend kefir.I make a kefir that is so extraordinary, and beneficial in children 6 months and up. I even tried it with my pigeons, solidifed the poop, but it is just plain messy to feed it. 

Typical strains of beneficial microorganisms found in yogurt are Lactobacillus Acidophilus, bularicus and perhaps either Bifido or Longum.

Here are the typical strains available in the kefir culture I use:. Sacc.cerevisiae, Sacc. delbreuckii, Sacc. exiguous, Sacc. florentinus, Sacc. Globosus, Sacc. Kefir, Sacc. Unisporus and Saccharomyces sp., Kluyveronomyces bulgaricus, Kl.fragilis, Kl.Marxianus ssp. Bulgaricus ssp., Marxianus, Totulaspora delbreuckii, Candida kefyr, Candida (Torula yeast) kefir, C. pseudotropicalis var. lactosa, Candida spp., Cryptococcus kefyr, Mycotorula kefyr. My. Lactos, My. Lactosa, Torulopis bolmii, Tp. Kefyr and torula kefir. 

As you can see, kefir has several friendly bacteria. Kefir can be digested well in children 6 months of age. It is important to note that Lactobacillus Acidophilus is only developed in the human digestive tract at around age 5 or 5 1/2 years. Feeding yogurt to a young child therefore would be difficult to digest and mucous forming. 

Since kefir does not contain any Lac. Acidophilus and has many more strains of gut bacteria it is very friendly for every gut, even those that are weak. I highly recommend it, not only for people, children but it works well for pigeons too. It is just messy, so i sually get the capsules of probiotics for them.

Bifidobacteria, the friendly bacteria of the large intestine in adult humans, decline with age or chronic conditions. this is a good reason to regurlarly provide the system with friendly bacteria. Other culprits that cause decline are steroids, disturbed gastric function, disturbed digestive tract motility (diarrhea, constipation) suffering from altered acidity due to aging, pernicious aneia, diverticulosis, regional enteritis, x-rays, other radiation exposure, cirrhosis of the liver, immune deficiencies and other chronic disease states. 

The total weight of of the many billions of bacteria living in our intestines is 31/2 lbs. 

...It is very cost effective too, you can turn a bottle of the cheapest pastuerized milk, into a power house of delicious grade A Kefir, for only pennies a day! I have used the same culture, it cost me seven dollars, for making batch after batch of yogurt for almost a year now.


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## lawman

Isn't kefir one of the products used for lacto intolerant children? To me that would make it another good substitute for the high priced pre and pro-biotic.

Lawman


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## Pidgey

Well, after reading all that I'd say that the powdered milk is a preferred probiotic food (preferred by the probiotic organisms) and the probiotics are the organisms. Also, that different folks may have different uses for the stuff. It's all the same use, really, but it's a bit different focus. Lawman, for instance, uses the probiotic food on a bunch of relatively healthy birds to make them just a tad better. I use it on an extremely sick or debilitated bird to try and save its life. So, I really need the probiotics per se and maybe augmented with some powdered milk or whey for good measure or the kefir which may be more of a combo.

Do I got it right?

Pidgey


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## lawman

Hi Pidgey, 

You got it right, however just one side note I've used it for sick birds too.... and it does work quite well. In 2003 my brother and I flew a team together, we hadn't done that in over 20 years, and it was fun! Even if we did argue about everything from medications to training, wouldn't trade it for the world. Any back to the point we had a young cock bird that went light on use no meds appeared to work matter of fact he kept getting sicker, I was almost to the point of having to put him out of his misery when I decided to use some whey protein mix I had on hand. I mixed the whey protein, powdered milk, peanuts, and some regular milk into the blender and made it as runny as I could with some extra water. That young cock bird went on to fly every youngbird race we had without a brake. He’s now in the stock loft....I've only a few times seen birds that were so tenacious to get home to their perch and mate. 

Lawman


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## Skyeking

lawman said:


> Isn't kefir one of the products used for lacto intolerant children? To me that would make it another good substitute for the high priced pre and pro-biotic.
> Lawman


It is the one used.

I supplement my birds with probiotics once or twice a week, the sick or injured, get more doses, heavier, and usually young pigeons, who are lacking in gut bacteria to begin with, also get an extra dose.

Between the probiotics powder, the probios, and the kefir, I'm set.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Lawman, 

That is very interesting information you gave about the carnation instant milk as a cheap, easy to get and excellent replacement for probiotics. I'm going to look into this myself soon

Now, I have a question for anyone here about this product. Do you think this could be added to the water for the pigeons to drink? I have a problem getting my birds to eat oil covered seeds so I was hoping that it could just be put in the water. Now of course, I realize that you wouldn't want to use very much in the water or enough to turn it white like a cup of milk...but what do you think?

Thoughts on this?


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## Pidgey

I guess it would depend on how good of a bacteria growing medium it is. Apparently, it's pretty good for the good bacteria (which the powdered milk doesn't have) so if you're going to leave it sitting around for a few hours then you have to wonder what'll happen with any bad bacteria in it, whether they'll reproduce or not.

Of course, the birds will have to like drinking it as well or at least do it.

Pidgey


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## lawman

Hi Pidgey, 

It has the *lactose sugar in it that is the base for almost all the probiotics*. I originally went back to using whey protein protein powder about 6 months ago, at the same time my brother went to using the powdered milk. Now both lofts saw a huge difference in the quality of late hatch youngsters. (The whey protein is used by body builders to help gain muscle mass, and it’s just a concentrated by product of powdered milk). The interesting part is although the birds gained mucsle mass they did not appear to gain lots of weight. The late hatch youngsters will be flying in old birds, so it will be interesting to see how they perform against their counterparts that didn’t get the “stuff” until they were already matured.


Pigeonpal2002,

I’ve always put the powdered milk and/or the whey protein powder on the feed. So I don’t know how it would react in the birds gut if allowed to sit out and ferment first. If I did put it in the water I think I would make it up no more than an hour ahead, making sure to keep it at no more than room temp. my concern is if it did start to go bad, the birds wouldn't drink. so for me it will stay on the feed. 

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft

OK,

You guys got to slow down for us old folks. Now, I have two containers in front of me which I have used. One is Whey Protein powder, and the other is Soy Protein Booster. Now, where in the heck are all the Probotics at ?? I see alot of good natural stuff here, but nothing to suggest various strains of bacteria.


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## re lee

As bacteria Sets up in the intestinal tract. I guess sometings help promote the good bacteria At that time. not that it is a bacteria when it enters the body. But a promoter of bacteria. Just like people and such when you arwborn your first bacteria comes from the milk you get either natural or formula based Then it is prossesed in the body and a bacertia grows giving protection. Probotics just help keep aa buildup of strong good body bacteria . By prossesed means. And when upset then sickness and health can dwindle. As long as the birds are healthy. The really need no extra. But if you want to insure good gut bacteria you set up a program that allows for safe production. How often I can not say you do it I would think a couple days a month on healthy birds would be plenty. We do not want any over growth of bacteria in the system. As ten its out of balance. Thats what over use of meds can cause. Each loft is different birds get balanced to there enviroment. Take them some where else they may get sick. Because new types of bacteria can exsist in the new loft that the birds have less protection aginst. There is NO wonder drug of any kind. If a person finds something useful then use it. But not in excess. I still think probotics should be used just asa maintance program. For me it would monthly. If a birds gut can get out of balance faster then that. Well its not going to be a surviver.


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## lawman

Hi Warren,

The key is the lactose sugar; it’s in all milk and most all milk by products, to include dried milk, whey protein, yogurts, ECT. Now your milk products may not state that they have the lactose sugar in them but if you do a Google search on milk the dairy industry talks about it. Now the soy protein booster is an alternate source for anyone that is lactose intolerant. Everything I've been able to read on probiotics, suggests that they ether have been based on the lactose sugar enzymes or on soy enzymes.

*Whey Protein - The Role of Whey Protein in Achieving Significant Muscle Gain
By Richard Mitchell*

Most bodybuilders would agree that supplementing with whey protein is an important element in achieving serious muscle gains. This article will examine the facts relating to whey protein as a supplement and help you decide whether you need to follow this particular strategy.

Whey protein is produced during the process that sees milk turned into cheese. It is also found naturally in dairy products, eggs, soy and vegetable proteins but none of these compares in quality to whey protein powder. It also scores highly in providing the branched chain amino acids (BCAA’s) that are important in the building and retention of muscle.

Whey protein is highly favored by bodybuilders because it provides the necessary building blocks to produce the amino acids that the body uses to build lean muscle tissue. Many studies have shown that whey protein contains the perfect combination of amino acids, in just the right concentration for optimal performance in the body. It is also thought that whey protein has a role as an anti-oxidant and immune system builder.

If you want to read all the articles go to; http: //www.aboutwheyprotein.info/

Enjoy reading everybody, Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Are we confusing Prebotics for use with Probotic Bacteria ? And whey protein as a whole different subject for discussion ?  

Does this also explain why I need a whole refrigerator to hold all this "Stuff", and the list keeps getting bigger every year ?


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## lawman

No Warren,

Fancy names aside all a prebiotic is; is a probiotic given as a preventative to disease and medication. The soy protein and by products in humans is given for those who are lactose intolerant, (they can’t drink milk or milk byproducts).

Now again the basis for almost all your probiotics and I would bet most of your prebiotics as well is going to be sugar lactose (from milk); those that are not based on sugar lactose proteins are most likely going to be based on soy proteins, since it’s the substitute for those who are milk intolerant. 

Lawman


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## Camrron

Very interesting stuff here. 

I know pro-biotics but I still don't get what the meaning of Pre-biotics is. Perhaps someone will fill me in.

In any case I have been led to believe that lactose (milk) products are difficult, even impossible for pigeons and most other birds to digest so I have to wonder if the value is really in there for them at all. I understand though, Lawman, that you have had good results with the dried milk/whey products. Personally I loved them and always felt they were good for me. 

On the other hand, when we made cheese there was plenty of whey produced which we dished out to the pigs mostly....also a bit to the chickens. *They loved it* and it would get consumed almost instantly. It is a sweet thin cloudy liquid and virtually fat free as the fats are consumed in the cheese making process. So maybe there is very little left of the lactose part in the whey, but I don't know.

I can tell you that I had a severe case of gut Candida ten years back brought on by two heavy courses of antibiotics. I used store bought Lacto-bicillus Acidopholus to bring my gut back into line and it took quite a few months to correct the problem. I cannot tell you how miserable I was until I started using it. Bloating, gas, depression, pain etc. Words just don't do some problems justice. Sugar of any type was of course the enemy especially refined sugar. I have only recently found out that Pro-biotics are in fact acidophilus. 

Back to my point though which is that while we, people, have had many thousands of years of evolution to adapt to cattle, sheep and goat milk proteins and enzymes and the such that is not the case with birds. I am not sure I would risk using any milk-based products with my pigeons no matter what the old-timers say. Sometimes old-timers ideas are just based on wives tales and there is no real science is involved. You can believe anything if you think about it hard enough.

Just my thoughts.

Cameron


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## lawman

Hi Camrron,

Well prebiotics are designed along the same theory and pretty much from the lactose sugars same as probiotics. It goes like this prebiotics are designed to maintain good colonies of gut bacteria before the onset of disease, while probiotics are given after diseases and/or heavy doses of medication that destroy the good gut bacteria. It is given afterwards to reestablish good colonies of gut bacteria, which is what you did after your case of gut Candida.

I’m glad you brought up Lacto-bacillus Acidophilus; guess what it’s made from as well?

That’s right lactose sugars are its base form. 

Now think about this I’m a salesman, my wares are prebiotics, probiotics, Acidophilus and/or whey type protein and I’ve got to sell my wares or go broke. Am I going to tell you that a well known substance like powdered milk is going to give you all the same things my probiotic can. Or more likely am I going to say, no the powdered milk can’t be handled by the pigeons, so you need to buy my probiotic after all it has everything they need to thrive?

Now I’m not saying the prebiotics and probiotics aren’t any good by any means… don’t get the wrong idea. They work great and my birds went up in performance when given them. However I can tell you that in the last six months of going back to basics, I’ve given both whey protein and powdered milk along with brewer yeast with no ill side effects to date. 

Basically you have an inexpensive product that does work, maybe not as effective and the specialty designed products. but it does work and you will see a big difference in the energy levels of your racers and breeders. Your birds will have more muscle mass without gaining a lot of weight. They will not only look more healthy but will act it as well. 

You can buy one carton of powdered milk or whey protein your choice, loaded with not only the lactose sugars but extra vitamins, minerals and calcium. Or you can buy the more expensive specialty products, you can buy prebiotics for this and probiotics for that and end up with a refrigerator full of stuff that you'll probibly never completely use before it goes bad. Its up to you.

In the end thou, it's like One of my Grandfathers favorite sayings was, "you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink!"


Lawman


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## Skyeking

*Prebiotics* provide a welcome environment for the friendly beneficial bacteria that live and work in the colon. They usually provide nutrients like FOS (fructooligosaccharides) and inulin that selectively *feed and nurture friendly gut bacteria.*

*Probiotics* this is the actual beneficial organisms (the live bacteria) that multiply in the intestine, crowding out bad bacteria, and enabling good gut flora. Beneficial bacteria is the long list I wrote about in the earlier post, that is in the kefir.

Some companies offer the two step system, where you take the prebiotic first and then take the probiotic.


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## Pidgey

Well, I think I see some of the confusion here. Probiotics are, by definition, mass quantities of specific single-cell organisms. Lactose and whey are simply raw materials that they reproduce in especially well. There is no such thing as the spontaneous generation of single-celled organisms of the probiotic type (or any other type on earth, for that matter) from those or any other raw materials. Scientists have been looking everywhere for that very type of thing and haven't found a single instance yet. That IS the great mystery of the origins of life that creationists and evolutionists constantly fight over.

By and large, though, bacteria are ubiquitous so it's not difficult to pick them up, both good and bad, and the gut is the perfect Petrie dish for many types. In theory, if you were grown from a testube and lived in a world where there were no "bad" bacteria, you could live your entire life without the need of good bacteria in your gut. It is the fact that we're a constant battleground of putrefying bacteria trying to digest US that we need the good bacteria so badly to fight the little bastards on their own level. That's mostly because our immune systems cannot reach into the boluses of food that travel through our intestinal tract to keep the bad bacteria from multiplying horrifically.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

Well Lawman,

You got me there. I certainly don't disagree with your grandfathers old saying. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Sometimes our elders have it just right with their expressions that indicate to us how to lead our lives. My father used to say "spit in the sky and it falls in your face". An old Italian expression that most people have never heard. He was right about that one too. I don't like to depend on things that I hear otherwise. For myself, I prefer to hear what the research says and to read the results of the outcomes.

You have a point about the Lacto-Bacillus Acidophillus though. I knew when I wrote that that the word Lacto (meaning basically a milk oriented product) was creating a problem with my logic. I just can't recall where I read or heard that anything milk related was not good for birds, while probiotics were. Perhaps I got bad information and have somehow internalized it.

The great thing about this site I think is that there is no place for pride. I have noticed so many showing humility, even some long term members and moderators. When they have a question, a gap in their knowledge, they just ask about it without feeling the need to show they know everything even after so many posts. 

I think a read a mention about how the acidophillus bacillus is being cultured in milk products or at least that is how I read it. It suggested it is or could be cultured in other ways but that milk is just one method. I just read the ingredients on my bottle of Probiotics but could not get a clear answer from that. The Lacto word it still in there so this perhaps is just the easiest, most efficient or best method of culturing the good bacteria. At least for people.

You could be on to something though Lawman. Sometimes, as consumers we get so caught up in the trend of the day that we overlook the basics. There are good alternatives for most products on the market and sometimes the tried and true methods are the best so it is easy to get caught up in the hype of the moment. Perhaps I should give your idea more consideration. I will look into it a little more and see what I can come up with. Basically though I am looking for research results if I can find them. 

So far I am understanding though that dairy products are not easily digestible in bird guts. On the other hand I know from my own personal experience how readily chickens would drink up any whey you put out for them and I can't recall seeing any of them suffer negative side effects. Every day they would just go crazy for more if they could get it. Mind you chickens get pretty excited about anything different in their food dish so I don't know if that helps.

Maybe some more experts will weigh in and straighten out my thinking if it is wrong. I am a big fan of probiotics though as they have changed my life for the better. That is personal experience talking. 

Thanks all for the tips on Pre-biotics. Is Kefir the main one or is it really about basic diet I wonder. I have never seen pre-biotics in the drugstore as trade names so I think you guys are talking about lifestyle decisions, not actual products.

Anyway, about the "lacto" thing lawman....guess i'm busted. My dad's old expression just keeps coming more true everyday. I will definately have to stop spitting in the sky. 

Cameron


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## lawman

Hi Camrron, 

not to worry none of us on this web site claim to know it all.... if we did we would be writting books and making money off of it..... I just know what has worked for me and what hasn't, that doesn't mean there might not be better products out there. I've just never found any that didn't cost an arm and your first born that worked any better than powdered milk and whey, mixed with brewers yeast on the alternate days. 

So far as being able to find a lot of information on it..... I think its like a lot of other secrets, it's been hiding in plain sight for all to see, and because its a simple remedy everyone overlooks it. 

but like I've said, If you feel better using the name brand probiotics. It's no problem, I've put the info out for everyone on what I've found that works. It's up to you and everyone else to ether try it or discard it. 

Lawman


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## Skyeking

Camrron said:


> Thanks all for the tips on Pre-biotics. Is Kefir the main one or is it really about basic diet I wonder. I have never seen pre-biotics in the drugstore as trade names so I think you guys are talking about lifestyle decisions, not actual products.
> Cameron



Hi Cameron,

I am no expert either, but I do know what works for me.

Kefir is very easily tolerated, and one of the best Lactose free ways to get good gut bacteria. I thrive on it, and never have done as well on the probiotic capsules, plus it is so much cheaper.

Yes, there are actually a few companies that have pre- and probiotics.

I take a drink of power house foods daily, which includes: Nutrition flakes (brewers yeast), Whey protein, kefir, Medi-aminos rice (free-form amino acids), Tocotriene-which is chicory, (pre-biotic) & greens. It is a whopper, but it is the best meal I have all day, no empty calories!

I may just try the whey on the birds!


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## Lin Hansen

Trees Gray said:


> I take a drink of power house foods daily, which includes: Nutrition flakes (brewers yeast), Whey protein, kefir, Medi-aminos rice (free-form amino acids), Tocotriene-which is chicory, (pre-biotic) & greens. It is a whopper, but it is the best meal I have all day, no empty calories!



Treesa, I have been fighting a losing battle since Sept., trying to avoid getting sick with colds, etc., since I started working with little children who are constantly passing their "bugs" to me. Been trying to build myself up with vitamins and supplements and what-not, so I'm very interested in your drink.

Could you possibly provide a recipe? Also, where some of the ingredients can be purchased....and maybe an approximate calorie amount (watching my weight as well, as usual.  )

Thanks,
Linda


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## Camrron

Thanks Lawman,

It is the exchange of ideas that makes this such a great site. I have been thinking about your idea all day and questioning why I am resistant to it but I don't have an answer. I may just try what you said and see for myself what are the results. I don't want to experiment with my birds though, especially the one who is currently still under the weather so for the moment I will stick with the store bought probiotics. 

I struggled also with the idea of putting out so much money for "Pigeon-mix" but am starting to reconsider that as well. So far I have just been offering wild bird seed but maybe I am actually depriving my birds of proper nutrition and the stuff they really want. I am trying to keep my thinking flexible though so that I don't back myself into a rut. 

Thanks for the tips Treesa. Like Linda I am wondering about the "Power House" lunch. Is that a brand name by any chance? I am already a total believer in the Lacto-Bacillus-Acidopholous but still don't understand about how you get Pre-biotics for personal use. I don't know anything about making homemade Kefir either.

Cameron


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## Skyeking

Lin Hansen said:


> Could you possibly provide a recipe? Also, where some of the ingredients can be purchased....and maybe an approximate calorie amount (watching my weight as well, as usual.  )
> Thanks,
> Linda



Hi Linda,

I will e-mail you my recipe and my products come from Healthline, since this is a pigeon forum, not people forum.LOL


Cameron,

I will send you the info also. 

It may take me a little time to get it done, so bare with me.....time is in short supply these days.


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## Lin Hansen

Thanks Treesa! Take your time.....

Linda


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## Camrron

Hi Treesa, I'm with Linda, like she said......




Lin Hansen said:


> Thanks Treesa! Take your time.....
> 
> Linda


Cameron


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