# They love to eat sand..



## de Vera Loft (Mar 11, 2009)

I've tried to put sand in their nest bowl.. the reason, a fancier told me that it is good to use sand in their nest bowl, for their eggs will be secured and it can warm the eggs while on the sand.. But suddenly, I felt that they love to pick a lot of the sand.. Is there anything good about the sand for them?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Where are you getting the sand?

Perhaps they are finding little rocks or some other food or tidbits that they are enjoying or craving.

I would be careful using sand, I would think it should be sanitized.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

are you sure they are eating it and not moving the eggs around under them


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Are you giving them grit?
Dave


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if I use sand or clay litter, I usually put pine shavings on top of it, and then put the pine needles in the loft so they can build a nest on that, so the sand is under all that, so have never seen mine pick at it before. They may need some red grit.


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## de Vera Loft (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes.. Grits always present in my loft..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Grit or no Grit, if you put coarse sand near them they will eat it. I would not use sand in a nest box, or bowl. Dave


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

de Vera Loft said:


> I've tried to put sand in their nest bowl.. the reason, a fancier told me that it is good to use sand in their nest bowl, for their eggs will be secured and it can warm the eggs while on the sand.. But suddenly, I felt that they love to pick a lot of the sand.. Is there anything good about the sand for them?


*Kristian* your birds are the same as mine...Yes I do put sand in the bowl, ½ way full to be exact...You're right, about keeping the eggs warm and egg are secure...My birds do eat or peck whatever is in it, don't really know what are they eating but it seems they like it...

Don't be surprised if you see them eating some charcoal ashes because my birds do eat those and I serve it to them in the bowl, specially this coming summer...Something they know that WE don't...I'm pretty sure if they have a cold and you put a pigeon medicine for cold in the loft and let them peck on it, I bet 100% they won't touch it...We all know they got a cold and the cold medicine is good for them but will they take it?, HECK NO...So they do know something better than US...If another fancier choose not to give it to them, well I have no control over that, all I can say is "but" and end of it...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you put sand in front of them, they are going to pick at it. They pick at everything. It won't hurt them. If anything, it'll act as grit. What do you think they do outside? They pick at sand, gravel pebbles, etc. As long as it's clean, it isn't going to hurt them. If people who let their birds out saw half of what they pick at outside, they'd probably be amazed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some people have said that it is good to use sand in the nestbowl, because it holds the heat when the parent birds leave for a while. Others have said that it isn't good, because it gets damp. Also, it really doesn't give them anything to grab onto and can therefore cause splay leg. I don't think it's really a great idea. straw and tabacco stems, or even pine needles would be better.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

So it is agreed the will eat the sand... SO why put it in the nest were they will most likely eat Fouled sand? Charcoal, is and always has been a good "balancer for the stomach, i NEVER have fed it or will, there are safer ways to get the same results. Let me see... if the charcoal is from pressure treated wood, could be toxic, if the wood was painted, it could be toxic, shall i go on? LOL! Dave


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Jay* since I'm using the sand for my breeders, I haven't seen a baby with splayed legs, not to my babies anyway, even before I use the sand method...I mean I honestly think splayed legs for my opinion  happens when there's nothing in the bowl at all...The sand can be pressed like when we go to the beach and stepped on the sand it pressed down but there are times when we misstepped and sprain our ankle, but that is less likely will or can happen to baby pigeon legs...

*Dave* I think anything the fire burns and whatever is in it, will be in the smoke and eventually gone for good so anything that was in the wood will gone and become ashes after the fire is done doing its bizness with it...IMO...


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Lead does not burn of, any heavy, toxic metal will not Burn off... JMHO Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

As far as splayed legs go any good nesting material, pine needles, straw, heck i have even used shavings with good results, you just have to USE enough of it. I have seen many pictures of young in the nest here with to little nesting material.... JMHO dave


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Okay I agree...I know nails and other metal stuff that is attached to the wood won't burn but *Dave* do you think pigeons don't know what's in the ashes when they peck it...But anything that man made and applied to the wood will dissolve eventually...Like I said I think they do know what they peck and not to peck...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> *Jay* since I'm using the sand for my breeders, I haven't seen a baby with splayed legs, not to my babies anyway, even before I use the sand method...I mean I honestly think splayed legs for my opinion  happens when there's nothing in the bowl at all...The sand can be pressed like when we go to the beach and stepped on the sand it pressed down but there are times when we misstepped and sprain our ankle, but that is less likely will or can happen to baby pigeon legs...
> 
> *Dave* I think anything the fire burns and whatever is in it, will be in the smoke and eventually gone for good so anything that was in the wood will gone and become ashes after the fire is done doing its bizness with it...IMO...


Pegasus, if there is only sand in the bowl, that's like having nothing at all. They have nothing to grab onto. It's like sitting on the hard floor. And that could cause splayed leg. They should have something under them to grab onto to keep their legs from going out to the side constantly. And if you are going to put stuff on top of it, then why do you need the sand? And, if it gets soiled, which it will, then they are eating it, well how good is that? In the wild, would they use sand in their nest? Don't think so.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> As far as splayed legs go any good nesting material, pine needles, straw, heck i have even used shavings with good results, you just have to USE enough of it. I have seen many pictures of young in the nest here with to little nesting material.... JMHO dave


I have to agree. You need to use enough, and many nest bowls don't have nearly enough in them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> Okay I agree...I know nails and other metal stuff that is attached to the wood won't burn but *Dave* do you think pigeons don't know what's in the ashes when they peck it...But anything that man made and applied to the wood will dissolve eventually...Like I said I think they do know what they peck and not to peck...


Pigeons will peck at ANYTHING! They do not know what is and isn't good for them. And if charcoal is used, it should be from the pigeon supply places.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes, Jay3 than it it is GOOD for them Dave


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If lead paint were on the wood, and it was burned to charcoal, wouldn't the lead still be there?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Jay 3 you are correct, and well put.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I only share my observation from a website, I'd read about some fancier in Asia that use this method so I figure why not to try and I do give my birds some Ginseng mixed in water...Something that I know I drink and work for whatever reason in my body and also I heard some asian fancier do this method so I did it...Works for them and works for me...I don't think I'm hurting my birds by doing this...I'm not an expert nor avian vet but if they can prove me wrong then I will accept I'm wrong otherwise (not to sound sarcastic or a smart aleck but) I did it not all the time just did it...About the lead paint, I doubt it...


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well i think most Charoal would be O.K. But why take a chance? Try embedding some rifle slugs in a chunk of wood and burning it a hot as you can. Trust me, the lead will still be there ,been there done that. I DO LOVE GINSENG! tried even to grow it once, did not work for me, BUT i will try it again. We use it most of the time on our selves. Dave


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Pegasus, if there is only sand in the bowl, that's like having nothing at all. They have nothing to grab onto. It's like sitting on the hard floor. And that could cause splayed leg. They should have something under them to grab onto to keep their legs from going out to the side constantly. And if you are going to put stuff on top of it, then why do you need the sand? And, if it gets soiled, which it will, then they are eating it, well how good is that? In the wild, would they use sand in their nest? Don't think so.


Since I built my breeding coop and used sand, I never have any birds with splayed legs...I can't say this won't happen to my birds but I only share what is what I noticed...All those birds that is in my album, none of them have splayed legs but they came from the sand methods...Besides the babies push their way up and they don't need to hold onto anything until 2 days old...Once they pushed and try to get up the sand will pushed down and like a hard cushion on their feet, don't get me wrong I'm always worried when the baby is hatched and its head is laying on the sand that is when I put the pad to support their little body...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> I only share my observation from a website, I'd read about some fancier in Asia that use this method so I figure why not to try and I do give my birds some Ginseng mixed in water...Something that I know I drink and work for whatever reason in my body and also I heard some asian fancier do this method so I did it...Works for them and works for me...I don't think I'm hurting my birds by doing this...I'm not an expert nor avian vet but if they can prove me wrong then I will accept I'm wrong otherwise (not to sound sarcastic or a smart aleck but) I did it not all the time just did it...About the lead paint, I doubt it...


Sorry Pegasus, and I'm really not trying to give you a hard time, but lead is lead. If it were in the paint, then it would still be there. It doesn't go away. I just care enough about my birds that I spend the very little bit that it costs, to buy the charcoal that I KNOW is safe for them. If others want to take chances with their birds well being, then that is their business. I don't. Not worth it.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Pegasus. I like you and i see you take good care of your birds. Splayed legs with any good nesting material is not that common, at least in my, or my Buddies lofts. I am casual lately, but have not had that problem in so many years it is a Mute point. Bare, slick nest bowls= splayed legs. Dave


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Jay3, all I'm saying is charcoal from charcoal not the wood that I burn with paints and all, not the house woods but the ones from the bag of charcoal from the store, the one that has carbon monoxide in it when you lite it up in the house...I'm not going through all the details about the carbon monoxide thing but the charcoal from BBQ grill is what I give them...After its totally burnt off then they can have it, I don't think the company who makes those charcoal put paint or any lead stuff in it right because the fume will stick to our food if you're using charcoal grill that is...


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> Bare, slick nest bowls= splayed legs. Dave


I totally agree on this...I won't say/speak anything if I never experience it...


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

*sand and carpet padding*

I talked to the owner of http://www.cbspigeon.com/ and he is using sand in the next bowl about 1/3 the way up, then he puts in carpet padding cut in a circle to fit in the bowl. He swears by it.

I am going to do this too. With pine needles 

Just adding to the conversation.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Good point, the more i discuss something the more i learn. But, i think the Pine needles are what work, the other causes no harm, just makes more work. If they have enough of any nesting material, all else is a mute point.
Right now i am using straw, is it perfect? heck no... but with plenty of it, they seem very capable of raising young in the coldest weather, no "splayed" legs, and warm babies. I have used pine shavings and straw in Jan. with not one sick, or splayed legged baby. JMHO Dave


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I know lots of people use the nest pads, and I guess the carpet padding would be the same, as long as it is cleaned or changed often. I was reading online about desease and medications, and one of the vets said he believed strongly that nest pads can cause desease, because they get damp and breed bacteria. Another thing is that one of our members had a fiber wrap around a squabs toe. I believe it caused the baby to loose its toe. After I while, you don't know what you're supposed to use. There are so many ideas, and I think that any one of them has its pluses and minus'. I use wood chips, with tabacco stems and straw. I add pine needles too. Then someone came in the other day and said that wood chips were bad for them because of the dust. Said it could cause respiratory problems. I know cedar is supposed to be bad, but I didn't think that regular pine shavings were. If you go by all these ideas, it's a miracle that wild or ferral pigeons are even around anymore. I don't think their environment needs to be sterile for crying out loud. As long as it is kept reasonably clean. I think it is just a matter of common sense. Don't think any one way is right or wrong. It's nice to try different things and see what works for you. That's what's nice about this forum. So many people with so many different ideas. And if something has been proven to be unsafe for the birds, someone will let you know. This has been an interesting thread.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think keeping the nest dry is the name of the game, I use stall dry which is diatomaceouse earth and clay particles, fill the paper nest bowl and top with pine shavings and then throw some pineneedles in the loft so they can make a nest. my nests have stayed dry even with all the sqaub poop.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Good point Spiritwings, Jay3 the only time i would worry about wood chips if i had it on the floor in any quantity. The small amount used in a nest bowl is NO threat at all. Dave


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Okay. I did have it on the floor this winter to try and keep things a little warmer. But I have since picked them up. No more on the floor. Maybe next winter, I'll put pine needles on the floor. I don't cover the whole floor, because I scrape every day. Just in some places here and there, and under the perches where they perch all night. It makes it a lot easier to clean.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

de Vera Loft said:


> I've tried to put sand in their nest bowl.. the reason, a fancier told me that it is good to use sand in their nest bowl, for their eggs will be secured and it can warm the eggs while on the sand.. But suddenly, I felt that they love to pick a lot of the sand.. Is there anything good about the sand for them?


they r eating sand as grit, if they find bigger pieces of rocks in the sand, they ll eat it, sand is great, cause it holds the temperature on eggs nevertheless sand can be dirty cause of poop and urine, put some red gritt on ur loft


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> I know lots of people use the nest pads, and I guess the carpet padding would be the same, as long as it is cleaned or changed often. I was reading online about desease and medications, and one of the vets said he believed strongly that nest pads can cause desease, because they get damp and breed bacteria. Another thing is that one of our members had a fiber wrap around a squabs toe. I believe it caused the baby to loose its toe. After I while, you don't know what you're supposed to use. There are so many ideas, and I think that any one of them has its pluses and minus'. I use wood chips, with tabacco stems and straw. I add pine needles too. Then someone came in the other day and said that wood chips were bad for them because of the dust. Said it could cause respiratory problems. I know cedar is supposed to be bad, but I didn't think that regular pine shavings were. If you go by all these ideas, it's a miracle that wild or ferral pigeons are even around anymore. I don't think their environment needs to be sterile for crying out loud. As long as it is kept reasonably clean. I think it is just a matter of common sense. Don't think any one way is right or wrong. It's nice to try different things and see what works for you. That's what's nice about this forum. So many people with so many different ideas. And if something has been proven to be unsafe for the birds, someone will let you know. This has been an interesting thread.


tobacco stems are the greatest, casue it keeps bugs away big time, theres 2 kind of pine needles, hope u r picking the right 1, i bought a paper shredder and some paper, i use sand in the bottom, and shreeded paper on the top, u can scoop poop out of sand real easy, and i change the paper every 3 days, paper sometimes have to be changed earlier, but is cheaper that tobacco stems, also u can dip ur shredded paper on a non toxic liquid like any kind of lice killer or antibacterial and let it dry, btw, i use water bleach to clean everything, and i let it dry good before putting birds back in, and yes ur right, wer need some bacteria on the loft, to buil their inmune systems, some people go overboard.
ps wood chips are bad, not because of dust, they are bad cause they have a small surface and they absorb bacteria and moist faster, nevertheless, *treated cedar *is good cause it keeps bugs away and bacteria.

thease are my birds,homers.

http://s1198.photobucket.com/home/cubanlofts/recentuploads?view=slideshow:D:D


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Okay. I did have it on the floor this winter to try and keep things a little warmer. But I have since picked them up. No more on the floor. Maybe next winter, I'll put pine needles on the floor. I don't cover the whole floor, because I scrape every day. Just in some places here and there, and under the perches where they perch all night. It makes it a lot easier to clean.


i keep rubber mats under all the perches, all the way around and it easier on me, i clean those once a week with water, but scrape them every day. also iam changing my floors to 2 by 10 s water proof boards, like the 1 s people use on decks, cause u can scrape thoise and them clean with water. on the winter to avoid draft i will cover the all floor with plastic and sand, and scoop daily


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cubanlofts said:


> i keep rubber mats under all the perches, all the way around and it easier on me, i clean those once a week with water, but scrape them every day. also iam changing my floors to 2 by 10 s water proof boards, like the 1 s people use on decks, cause u can scrape thoise and them clean with water.


I hope you are not talking about the pressure treated wood, as that is toxic. The newer composite wood and plastic combined decking would work, and cleans great. You can buy it at Home Depot or Lowes. A bit more expensive but worth it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cubanlofts said:


> tobacco stems are the greatest, casue it keeps bugs away big time, theres 2 kind of pine needles, hope u r picking the right 1, i bought a paper shredder and some paper, i use sand in the bottom, and shreeded paper on the top, u can scoop poop out of sand real easy, and i change the paper every 3 days, paper sometimes have to be changed earlier, but is cheaper that tobacco stems, also u can dip ur shredded paper on a non toxic liquid like any kind of lice killer or antibacterial and let it dry, btw, i use water bleach to clean everything, and i let it dry good before putting birds back in, and yes ur right, wer need some bacteria on the loft, to buil their inmune systems, some people go overboard.
> ps wood chips are bad, not because of dust, they are bad cause they have a small surface and they absorb bacteria and moist faster, nevertheless, * treated cedar is good cause it keeps bugs away and bacteria.
> *
> thease are my birds,homers.
> ...


Cedar is very bad for birds. It does kill bugs, but it is bad for the birds.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Cedar is very bad for birds. It does kill bugs, but it is bad for the birds.


why is bad, i have never used, but lots of people use it, right, iam using the new stuff from lowes


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> I hope you are not talking about the pressure treated wood, as that is toxic. The newer composite wood and plastic combined decking would work, and cleans great. You can buy it at Home Depot or Lowes. A bit more expensive but worth it.


 right, iam using the new stuff, is a mix of rubber with wood i think, but is worth i thinkbest part, my friend took his porch down, and he s gonna let me have it.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Happy Labors Day Everyone, Dont Work Too Much, God Bless America.:d:d


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cubanlofts said:


> right, iam using the new stuff, is a mix of rubber with wood i think, but is worth i thinkbest part, my friend took his porch down, and he s gonna let me have it.


I think you will be very happy with the way it cleans.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cubanlofts said:


> why is bad, i have never used, but lots of people use it, right, iam using the new stuff from lowes



Cedar and Pine Shavings are
Toxic to ALL Small Animals!

The news in a nutshell

AFRMA - Both cedar and pine contain phenols-that's the stuff that makes them smell good. Phenols are caustic, poisonous, acidic compounds. These compounds cause constant irritation to the nasal passages, throat, and lungs of small animals giving bacteria an easy opening, thus commonly causing pneumonia. Phenols also affect organs such as the liver and kidneys, because these organs are responsible for filtering toxins out of the body. When presented with a large amount of toxins over time, they are unable to filter it all out and begin to fail. An animal with a damaged liver will have a depressed immune system, which can lead to other medical conditions.
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2.htm


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

i appreciated the info, everyday we learn something new, i ll be sure to stay away from it, and tell 2 of my friend, cause they sure use it, i will forward ur post to them, so they can read it, thanks God bless


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## avian (Sep 6, 2010)

some times there are small microbial organisms which are not visible to our eye.
They can see them .they pick those small microbial organisms.


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