# Origins of the Flying Tipplers...



## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Origins of the Flying Tipplers

http://tippler.askdefine.com/

Origin
All races of breeds of domestic pigeon have been evolved from the Rock Pigeon (Columba livia) that cohabits with man everywhere in the world. The domestic pigeon breeds are believed to have been developed in the Middle East. As to the origin of the Tippler we are at a loss for accurate data. According to one theory, the Tippler is supposed to have been a cross between the Tumbler and the Cumulet in order to improve their flying qualities and give them a larger range of flight, that is, they rake more, which keeps them longer on the wing. This long-term flying has helped to get rid of the tumbling properties. There is no doubt that it is man-made through selective breeding. They are of Tumbler descent, but beyond this it is merely a matter of speculation. The breed is thought to be originated in Congleton and Macclesfield mining town in England, around the year 1845. The aim of the old time breeders was to perfect a graceful action of the wings, or "Butterfly Action" and it is the ease and grace with which the wings are used that enable the Tippler to attain its marvelous duration of flight. Wendell Levi in his book The Pigeon cites a reference from Hepworth (1893) who interviewed a W. Jolly of Mill Green who in 1893 stated that he had been breeding Tipplers for fifty six years. That would take the origin back to at least 1837. Levi also comments that the breed was developed around Rainow and Macclesfield, and goes on to mention "Macclesfield Tipplers", a strain or type of Tippler (See below), and that they were named after the region they were developed in.

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Jack Prescott http://jack.tipplers.com/frm_articles.htm


“According my inherited records I conclude that the early Tipplers came not from Asia directly but from Macclesfield, in the county of Cheshire, about 30 miles south west of Sheffield. Macclesfield is a small town in the Peak Mountain district noted for the export of silk.”

“The early Tipplers that were flown in Sheffield in the county of Yorkshire were called Macs. At a later date these birds were crossed with something else which was better adapted to night flying.” 

“I have written with monotonous regularity that Tumblers and Tipplers stem from a common ancestry. The very early Tipplers used to tumble and in fact the word 'tipple' in the old Sheffield dialect means to fall or to tumble. Even 20 years ago some specimens of flying Tippler issue would do a couple of back flips on release in spite of selective breeding against the syndrome.”

“The acrobatic aspect was cultivated as well as the high flying aspect. It was not too long before the two talents were separated. For High Flying and Long Times. the acrobatics had to be selected out and the result was. the Tippler. The early specimens were often seen to tumble. The local dialect word for "Tumble" was "Tipple".”

“In Sheffield today, just ask any very old person what it means to "tipple". You will be told that it simply means to fall down, head over heels. Now, don't bother asking the young folks. Our dialect has changed and the word "tipple" is seldom heard or written.” 

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The origins of the Word “TIPPLER” when describing the Tippler Pigeon was first Phrased, Coined or Named in England…! 2nd; The origin of what is known as the makeup of the English Tippler is rooted or come from the mixing of different Breeds & Strain from the family of Tumblers, from Europe, Middle East and Asia as well…! 3rd; Today we know that the Tippler is a Breed with many different Strains within the Breed… But its still in the Tumbler Family…. And it’s still belong to The Tumbler class Family gene pool due to its Origins...!


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Tiplets said:


> Origins of the Flying Tipplers
> 
> http://tippler.askdefine.com/
> 
> ...


Okay...


Tiplets said:


> According to one theory, the Tippler is supposed to have been a cross between the Tumbler and the Cumulet in order to improve their flying qualities and give them a larger range of flight, that is, they rake more, which keeps them longer on the wing.


So it is just a theory right? That they come from Tumblers that is?


Tiplets said:


> This long-term flying has helped to get rid of the tumbling properties. There is no doubt that it is man-made through selective breeding. They are of Tumbler descent, but beyond this it is merely a matter of speculation.


Oh, now it seems a fact that they came from Tumblers and everything else however is 'subjective'?

I have seen this paragraph on MANY Tippler sites. It is very poorly written(or is it wrote? =])

They author of this contradicts him or herself on two points.
Logically makes no sense.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f39/danish-tipplers-58057.html


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## Birdman79 (Aug 9, 2007)

Tipplers don't only have tumbler blood in em,but also asian highflyers,english rollers,cumulet,etc.


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes...! The Tippler breed is made from and will always be in the Tumbler family group of birds...! along with all the other breeds that come from the Tumbler family group and still belong...! 

By the authority vested in me, I here and now proclaim that the "Flying Tippler" to be in the now and always have been in the Tumbler group class of Birds... "So it shall be written, so it shall be done"...!!!


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Birdman79 said:


> Tipplers don't only have tumbler blood in em,but also asian highflyers,english rollers,cumulet,etc.


All of which also belong to the Tumbler Family....!


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Supposedly


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

the question is what doesnt have tumbler blood in it? What is the tumbler?


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> the question is what doesnt have tumbler blood in it? What is the tumbler?


http://books.google.com/books?id=READAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=GTdDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=JEsDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false


Here are a few good books you can read up on, which will explain & answer your Questions... When your finish with these books I have a few More... Do it the way some of us do... Do Reseach & Read and it will come to you!!!


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

so you dont have a quick answer? Is there any evidence to support any claims made above or are they all just opinion and informative guesses? I want to see evidence, that is all. Books where people say one thing or another is not evidence just hearsay. Theres are books written on how great eye sign is for racing pigeons but many disagree with it. The book doesnt make it true.


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> so you dont have a quick answer? Is there any evidence to support any claims made above or are they all just opinion and informative guesses? I want to see evidence, that is all. Books where people say one thing or another is not evidence just hearsay. Theres are books written on how great eye sign is for racing pigeons but many disagree with it. The book doesnt make it true.


Let me ask you a Question, What books and research have you Read or conducted...??? that supports your claims...??? Your Insight, your thoughts, your skepticism or doubting tendency how can you go on a pure since of ideology or ask questions based on Nothing??? Read and you will find your answer!!!


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

what claims have i put out? I was just asking for evidence. Books of people just saying this is so is not evidence. If someone said they made the tippler themselves and this is what they did it would be a little different. Im not arguing they didnt come from tumblers. Just theres no proof.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

then ask the question where did tumblers get there start.. Any way you look at the past One could find loop holes But trust in the past As the past made today. Just as the bible is trusted by millions As proof of god BUT who has seen god. So sometimes we have to believe somthing


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> what claims have i put out? I was just asking for evidence. Books of people just saying this is so is not evidence. If someone said they made the tippler themselves and this is what they did it would be a little different. Im not arguing they didnt come from tumblers. Just theres no proof.


If you don’t believe in what others write in books & articles, how do you explain your abilities to understand anything for that fact, in your case scenario then every thing that was ever written is False??? I just don’t understand your sense of logic and unjustified questioning, I really don’t …! if I’m wrong you really cant prove it because you don’t have any proof… at least I have evidence from Articles & Books that supports my version of truth you have nothing, because you don’t believe in anything that people write so that’s why I cant answer your questions because I base my knowledge on books, articles and research non of which you believe in??? just the mere mention of tumbler in so many books & articles sets the scales to my side of the truth…!… you Questioning me or your side of the scale has absolutely no weight,,, Absolutely none…!


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

This is not necessary. We already did this in the other thread I linked.
If I wrote a book and said something opposite of what you said we would both be right in your eyes?
Your line on reasoning is flawed. 
Books stating it is not facts or evidence.
_No comment on my break down of that paragraph?_


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

because the majority believes something doesnt make it so. No i don't just believe *people* that writes books. If they dont have something to back it up then its just an opinion. Do you understand facts and evidence is different than speculation. What is the research. Do tell me to read, just point out a research done to show it to be true. Heres another question. Are there any cases of people breeding tumblers that do no tumbler today? Just want responsive answers to my questions, nothing more.


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

The only thing I will answer is that, I'm satisfied with & what I believe in as far as I’m convinced of the origins of the Tippler and that its based on other Tumbler breeds that where It’s only foundation and then perfected as a strain, which then fell into the lime light as a breed… I solely base that on what I have read & researched & believe… and nothing you both say or tell me will change my mind and I don’t want you to change your way ether in the manner you come to your assumptions or conclusions… Its in my best Interest & I actually rather prefer that you think the way you both do about the subject on the Origins of the Tippler… Ignorance is bliss and I’m completely pleased and head over heals with my version of it or lack of…!


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

I turned to my Bible, "The Pigeon" by Wendell Levi on this and without violating the copy write I'll para phrase. Tipplers were developed from rollers in a part of England about 1840.
No one knows what type of rollers. End para phrasing.

Since there are no hard facts about the tippler's origins there can be no proof.

If ya got them... fly them and be happy with that, I guess.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I don't have any problem with not knowing since it cant be shown. I assume levi ment rollers as in rollers, and not tumblers as people call those rollers. But once again how can you say point blank "tipplers come from rollers" and then say "we don't know what rollers".... really you don't know what roller it could have been but they did indeed come from rollers... and once again "you know this how?"


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> I don't have any problem with not knowing since it cant be shown.* I assume* levi ment rollers as in rollers, and not tumblers as people call those rollers. But once again how can you say point blank "tipplers come from rollers" and then say "we don't know what rollers".... really you don't know what roller it could have been but they did indeed come from rollers... and once again "you know this how?"


You assume?  I just gave you a world renown source to read and you would argue with it with out even reading it. Hmm.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

he said tipplers come from rollers  but has no clue what rollers  how can you know it comes from rollers but no even know what breed. Once again no evidence to base options on. *I haven't taken a stance* because there's not a single shred of evidence. What a fallacy of appeal to authority, just because he may know a lot about breeds doesn't means he should just be believed on every account blindly.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I looked into some history on the tipplers NOW in England people had birds they flew and called them tipplers. others had tumblers A NON tumbling type of tumbler that they flew. The main difference in BOTH breeds was the COLOR patterns on the birds But the flying tumblers flew long hours just as the birds called tipplers So Using this idea The flying tumbler and the tippler are more prone in my thought to be one and the same BUT of a different color base line of birds That were infused to what would be today the tippler. NOW that makes good sence to me. the main thing is today tipplers are just called tipplers The history shows past strain lines Which means little in todays world as that was over 100 years ago. Just like The modena long ago was a flying bird used to atract birds from other lofts To the owners loft kind off like thief pouters BUT today the modena is far removed of its past to where it is a show breed now And moved forward by a set standard. And any other breed line from the past has been cultivated towrads todays wants. NOW do those of you that raise tipplers compete or just enjoy them in your own way.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

*CORRECTION* I should have said that the Tippler came from Tumblers. As did the roller. (Senior moment)


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Im still real interested in this. I have multiply questions i would like answers to.

What is an non tumbling tumbler?

Did non tumbling tumblers come from tumbling tumblers?

Where did tumbling tumblers come from?

Do tumblers x tumbler ever make a bird that will never tumble?


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> Im still real interested in this. I have multiply questions i would like answers to.
> 
> What is an non tumbling tumbler?
> 
> ...


There are many Tumbler breeds that dont tumble in flight, and I know quite a few, but why dont you do your own research and answer your own Questions. because it seems you dont believe anyone...! until you find out for your self...!... Google it, buy a book, go on youtube... Find your own Truth... That I think you may have read somewhere? All those who seek will find... Thats what I did a long time ago!!! it seems thats about the only answer you'll believe, "Is Yourself"...


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

come on...tiplets.. you already stated you didn't want to answer my questions... Which you didn't here either. Are my questions stupid and not deserving of a quick answer?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Print Tippler said:


> Im still real interested in this. I have multiply questions i would like answers to.
> 
> What is an non tumbling tumbler?
> 
> ...


OK there is info on the web That takes just a couple of mins to find. There are several breeds of tumblers that are bred more to fly Then there rooler type of tumbler that got the name roller as being called a long roller tumbler. Before that they were just called tumblers that rolled more. The iranian highflyer is a tumbler that rolls jus a few times in flight. NO you like to ask many questions Let me ask you 1 HOWLONG have you raised tipplers. 2 do you compete with yours. #3 Do you belong to any clubs that represent the tippler. 4 Do you select your birds by performance. 5 Why do you say you want proof BUT fail to even look for your proof. Answer these questions And we will see where you are at with your idea.


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

No its not that your questions are stupid... by no means!!! but I think its better that you do your own leg work, like the rest of us have... Call it Homework My Friend,,, the answer you seek is out there!!! you'll feel better when you find it on your own...!... you are both very clever... it shouldn't be to hard, I hope the truth doesn't hurt...!!!

Ok here's just one for you to do some research on Spanish nuns are catalonian tumblers they dont Tumble in flight,,, many tumbler breeds dont tumble in flight but some do Sharpe hooks in kits together in flight...??? chew on those thoughts for a while cause I have so many more in my Pocket...!!!... go do some home work... and the next time you see your tipplers flying,,, really take a good look at the way they sometimes fly!!! your answer's to your own Questions are in your own birds...!!!


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

re lee said:


> OK there is info on the web That takes just a couple of mins to find. There are several breeds of tumblers that are bred more to fly Then there rooler type of tumbler that got the name roller as being called a long roller tumbler. Before that they were just called tumblers that rolled more. The iranian highflyer is a tumbler that rolls jus a few times in flight. NO you like to ask many questions Let me ask you 1 HOWLONG have you raised tipplers. 2 do you compete with yours. #3 Do you belong to any clubs that represent the tippler. 4 Do you select your birds by performance. 5 Why do you say you want proof BUT fail to even look for your proof. Answer these questions And we will see where you are at with your idea.


Relee, that's another good example...!!!


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

*endurance flyer: Tippler*

Are there any cases of people breeding tumblers that do no tumbler today? Just want responsive answers to my questions, nothing more.[/QUOTE]

If you are still looking for more answers: I have read that the Serbian High Flyer had become a tumbler and is bred out of tumbling, making it a Tippler type endurance flyer.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

That didn't answer my question. I was looking for a clear example of when two tumblers of the same breed were bred and made birds that never tumbled dued to genetic reasons.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

*My tumblers*

Hello Print Tippler. I think I have seen in my tumblers what you are looking for. The tumblers can be bred to tumble more or less. I have seen out of my tumblers that did not tumble the usual, just one vertical roll type tumble where the bird did not loose elevation. I have got a new tumbler, which for some reason has not started to tumble and it is close to a year old. Other tumbler fanciers I know, breed for birds who start to tumble within a few weeks after their first flight. Old timers recommended us not to breed mad tumblers together because the offspring tumble so much and loose lots of energy, therefore decreasing their total flying time. I tried to feed my tumblers this year as if they were Tipplers, and I hurt one of the birds, because it rolled instead of tumbling and crashed to the ground a few times. I noticed she was getting thinner than the rest of the birds. Maybe barley and flaxseed mix do not go well with the flying roller pigeons either. I have never knowingly flown or kept Tipplers. I have never even seen them fly in person. If you are looking to find out if the Tippler type birds came from other mix of pigeons, than that is also possible. Because once a fellow fancier bred a stray dark check hen, which he found as a juvenile to one of his tumblers and got an ugly bird that flew well with his birds, but never tumbled.


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