# Is it possible to identify strains?



## pigeonnewb (Jan 18, 2008)

If I didn't know the strain of my homers. Is there a way to tell between the diffrent strains? I know this maybe asked over and over again but I couldn't find any information on it. I know they are homers because they where banded and the guy who gave them to me told me they were homers but no pedigree. =(. Am I S.O.L?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

No, you can't tell the strain by just looking. Some people may tell you that a bird looks like "this strain" or "that strain" but they're only guessing. 
And most of the so called "strains" of today are so far removed from their ancestors, that it's mostly a name to catch the eye of fanciers and get the money from their wallets. 
Don't get wrapped up in the pedigree thing either. It's only a piece of paper and unless you KNOW the person who's giving the pedigree, you can't be certain it's even correct. I'm certainly not saying "don't buy pedigreed birds"....just don't let the fact that a bird does or doesn't have a pedigree sway you on whether you should get the bird or not.


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## pigeonnewb (Jan 18, 2008)

Oh ok, thanks for the answer.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Many people think that they can as Renee said. For example, Van Der Maelen birds from her loft have broken bars alot of the time. Though if you will notice the first generation they are here they have solid bars. So every time I see a bird that has broken bars someone has to say... oh a van der maelen bird. But no many defining factors for many strains are shared with other strains and you must keep in mind mutations and sub-strains and families in the bigger lofts.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I've thought about this myself actually. My first homers were "just homers", no pedigree....I didn't think to ask if they were of any certain strain at all. A lot of strains, families, and things like that can be identified by their color...like....when I think of Meulemans, I think of pretty much solid red homers. And when I think of Janssens, blue bars....Black Knights, black of course....and White Bandits obviously white. I can't really see anyway you could be for sure though unless it came from the founders themselves. Because I mean...some people will say that any blue bar they have is a Janssen, when it might be something else. That's another thing too - homers come in too many colors. I have black homers....but that doesn't mean it's a Black Knight. All you can assume is that your homers are mixed strains unless you get a pedigree, or ask the previous owner if they happen to know. In the end...I don't really think putting a pigeon under a name of a strain even matters. It seems to me like your homers have just as good of a chance to win a race or place high than any other homer  Besides, all these "strains" had to start from somewhere! They had to mix something together to get their own thing going on.

Edit: Wow.....I must have taken forever. When I first started typing the post no one else had said anything. My dad got me off topic  But yeah.....I ended up re-saying what's already been said....


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I've thought about this myself actually. My first homers were "just homers", no pedigree....I didn't think to ask if they were of any certain strain at all. A lot of strains, families, and things like that can be identified by their color...like....when I think of Meulemans, I think of pretty much solid red homers. And when I think of Janssens, blue bars....Black Knights, black of course....and White Bandits obviously white. I can't really see anyway you could be for sure though unless it came from the founders themselves. Because I mean...some people will say that any blue bar they have is a Janssen, when it might be something else. That's another thing too - homers come in too many colors. I have black homers....but that doesn't mean it's a Black Knight. All you can assume is that your homers are mixed strains unless you get a pedigree, or ask the previous owner if they happen to know. In the end...I don't really think putting a pigeon under a name of a strain even matters. It seems to me like your homers have just as good of a chance to win a race or place high than any other homer  Besides, all these "strains" had to start from somewhere! They had to mix something together to get their own thing going on.


The only thing about this post that i really have to correct is the last third of it. Many people like to race pure strains or pure crosses and that is why they want to have certain birds and wont take them if they are not "Their" strain. Second... " Besides, all these "strains" had to start from somewhere! They had to mix something together to get their own thing going on." actually many many old Strains that are here now like Janssens and Pogorzelski birds were developed over a few generations of alot of breeding racing and culling to achieve the optimum racing pigeon.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Matt D. said:


> The only thing about this post that i really have to correct is the last third of it. Many people like to race pure strains or pure crosses and that is why they want to have certain birds and wont take them if they are not "Their" strain. Second... " Besides, all these "strains" had to start from somewhere! They had to mix something together to get their own thing going on." actually many many old Strains that are here now like Janssens and Pogorzelski birds were developed over a few generations of alot of breeding racing and culling to achieve the optimum racing pigeon.


1. I understand that most people want pure strains, that's what I'd like to have too! But being a pure strain doesn't mean that makes it a better bird. That's all I was saying.


2. Yes but what I'm saying is, a strain is just a name for a group of pigeons someone developed a certain thing about. The old ones started from the basics pretty much. But almost all of these strains you hear of today came from mixing the old ones. ALL strains came from SOMETHING, even if it was as far back as the very first domesticated Rock Doves. All strains started from different pigeons. No two pigeons are alike, just like us. Just because a pigeon is one of the original "Janssens", doesn't make it anymore special than any other pigeon, mixed strain or not. It might have come from a loft of specially selected birds, but where did the birds THEY started with, come from? The wild? Another loft? 
Really I was just trying to get at the fact that a pigeon is a pigeon. It may be so mixed in strains that you can't even begin to put it under one strain or another, but it still has a chance to be great! You don't need some fancy name like Janssen or Van Reet or Van Loon or Van whatevers...Okay so everyone WANTS the BEST. You can't just get a pigeon with a fancy name and expect it to do as good as the others. It takes time, effort, and good training on your part. The Janssen brothers made careful decisions in what they kept in the loft to breed, and what they didn't. Okay...so....why can't you take these new homers this person has, test them out, and breed the best with the best? You aren't doing a SINGLE THING different than the Brothers did. They didn't start out with these great winners you think of when you hear "pure Janssens", they had to *make *winners. The Oldest strains didn't have all these good strains to cross to make their birds great...they had to start from scratch. Which goes back to my belief that any mixed up or unknown strained homer can be the start of something great. Because if you think about it...the start of some of the greatest and oldest strains around HAD to start with just a plain ole homer in some way or another.


I probably just started a war  I haven't been racing for years and I don't have anyone else in the family that does, but I still have enough sense to make some points about racing pigeons and their strains. Even if no one else gets my points, at least I know what the heck I'm talking about (I normally end up confusing people when I try to explain just what I'm trying to get at!  )

I think all of that deep thinking made my brain melt....

Edit: Before I get accused of being mean, that's not what I was trying to do. I just like to explain why I say things...especially when people correct me. I'm fairly stubborn when it comes to my pigeon beliefs, opinions and ideas. Haha


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Yes... really we both were kinda saying the same thing the second time but in a different way. What I really wanted to say was that not only are the history is what makes a strain it is also personal touches. My family (actually my grandpa) when we first bought birds (45 years ago) they were bekurts (sp? if it is spelled wrong I'm losing it.) but after 45 years of picking breeders and mixing other birds in from other lofts and from our racing style... they have become "our" strain. They are no longer bekurts. They have been shaped for generations after generations they have been made into a totally different strain. The only reason we still call them bekurts is because that is what they started as... now when people say what kind of birds we have we still say bekurts but we really mean... well they are our birds... would you like to see them? =)


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

you are correct in the fact that great strains come from various lofts and places to make what one persons name represents in their birds.. look at the foundation birds from any loft and they are always finding that wonder bird somewhere to cross into their own to make their birds what they are ...even as with ludo classen he has a whole line based on a bird that one day found its way into his loft via being lost by someone else ... so as maryofex was saying no line is pure until you make it your own and from there who knows where it will go onto to become the next great strain


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Matt D. said:


> Yes... really we both were kinda saying the same thing the second time but in a different way. What I really wanted to say was that not only are the history is what makes a strain it is also personal touches. My family (actually my grandpa) when we first bought birds (45 years ago) they were bekurts (sp? if it is spelled wrong I'm losing it.) but after 45 years of picking breeders and mixing other birds in from other lofts and from our racing style... they have become "our" strain. They are no longer bekurts. They have been shaped for generations after generations they have been made into a totally different strain. The only reason we still call them bekurts is because that is what they started as... now when people say what kind of birds we have we still say bekurts but we really mean... well they are our birds... would you like to see them? =)


I get what you mean. That seems to be the thing with everyone or most people...they go for what they want out of their birds, and it becomes they're own thing =)
Like I don't really care about keeping a certain strain only, I just want to put the best birds in my opinion, with other best birds and get a loft of birds that fit my idea. I pretty much call mine "Morgans", since all of my original homers came from a guy around here by the name of J.F. Morgan. I'm not sure if he even knew what strain, if any, his birds were....but the ones I've bred out of his are good to me. They may not have fancy names or pedigrees but you never know...one of their babies might just become a champion one day! Like Mary Jo for example, you've heard how proud I am of her and the older Mary. I'm not sure what the heck they're made out of, but they have some characteristics I'd like to keep around until I find something else I'd rather go for. 
And um....if it's the same thing I'm thinking....is it spelled Bekaert?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

maybe you could call your strain morgan beckarts (beckys works of art  just a silly sugestion hehe


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## pigeonnewb (Jan 18, 2008)

What have I started LOL


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

It may have been you how started this "thread" but after 10 post we have made it our "own" thread... hehehe.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

this brings to mind that strain of white homers that they call white trash... talk about starting a memerable strain of birds


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i can tell you the belgians dont even know what you are talking about when you mention the word strain.the best flyers over there buy birds or even eggs from their competition to cross into their birds.this changes from year to year.the good ones will try to sell you what they fly,but if you insist,they will sell you a "pedigree".there just is no such thing,and hasnt been for years.there are some that will linebreed for a little while if they have major success,but they all will cross. 

one particular belgian said once..."every year i first breed my pigeons for myself to fly and then i breed the birds for the americans to buy."


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

k-will said:


> one particular belgian said once..."every year i first breed my pigeons for myself to fly and then i breed the birds for the americans to buy."


That is beyond true.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*In Belgium*

In Belgium the standing joke is "I JUST SOLD A PEDIGREE TO AN AMERICAN................AND I THREW IN A BIRD FOR FREE" .GEORGE


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> 1. _I understand that most people want pure strains, that's what I'd like to have too! But being a pure strain doesn't mean that makes it a better bird. That's all I was saying._
> 
> You bring up a good point. Being a "pure" strain doesn't guarentee anything. However, I think the reason people desire inbred or closely bred, proven birds is that they don't want to have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. An inbred pigeon has a much higher chance of passing on its traits to its young, both good and bad. If you have an inbred pigeon that has proven itself, either as a performer or a producer, you can greatly shorten the period of time it will take to establish a colony of successful birds. The previous breeder has done a lot of the legwork before you. Its purely a numbers game. The more concentrated the genes, the higher the probability the bird will pass those genes, and thus the traits, on to its young.
> 
> ...


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

while i agree partially with what "learning" is saying,you have to understand that most of the so called pure strains arent pure.these people that do this are crossing blood back and forth to some extent and dont even realize it.i think what you are really speaking of is linebreeding which even the belgians do to a certain extent.they will linebreed to keep a bloodline intact that has been successful to them for the purpose of bringing in crosses to mate to that line for flyers.thats why when people buy pigeons in belgium calling it this name or that name it is "baloney".because the birds that are building up the records mostly are the cross not the linebred bird.jos vercammen is a perfect example of this.his panther line has been kept intact for years since the 1980s.however he mostly flies pigeons from a cross from that line.the americans want to buy his panther birds and linbreed them.he doesnt understand this and will try to tell them not to do this.he will tell you to cross to a good pigeon with similar qualities,bodies,wings,etc.he has whole pens full of panther birds that the americans want to buy.now...my last point of this is elton dinga who has become a name in american racing with futurities knows this and he listened to jos and he took those birds and crossed them to other birds with the right qualities and he won a bunch of money just by listening to the master.just as a small example i had 3 of those panther birds from jos in 2003,and i did as asked an mated them to other birds.i had only 4 cocks and 3 hens to fly that had been darkened,so i flew only the cocks and used the hens for "mates".in 9 races i won 6 with the other 3 races placing either 2nd or 3rd,and most races thes cocks were back to back on the race sheet.unfortunately a hawk busted thru a aviary after the season and destroyed all the pigeons.point is......listen to the belgians...lines are fine,but cross them. note:i linebred a janssen based family for years with some success.we americans have all made this mistake.had i crossed in the right pigeons at some point,i wonder if i would have had alot more success?


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2008)

I think there was an article posted here once a while back about the janssen brothers and even it told of birds that they crossed into thier line to improve their stock , so yes everybody has to cross into their strain of birds at some point or another in my opinion or they will get stagnent as with anything else .. you wanna win you have to keep improving on what you got and if your birds are at their peak and others are passing you by those genes arent gonna get any better when the gene pool is what it is ..but again that is just my opinion


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i was one that was fortunate enough to have met them and visited their loft and i can tell you they purchased eggs from others and banded those pigeons when they hatched with their bands.some argue that because their bands were always the same series they didnt introduce new blood,but eggs were the secret to how they did this.myself and a german fancier that was there at the janssens actually witnessed this.henk kuijalars brought eggs to the janssens while we were there.when i asked louis about the eggs,he replied
"experiment".they constantly crossed new blood into that family,and when it was successful,the line continued.when it wasnt they removed all birds from that "experiment" and tried a new one.they crossed like every other competitor they flew against.

louis van loon had so many different strains of van loon over the years because he excelled at all distances,i cant see how anyone in their right mind could have called van loons a strain of pigeons.he had completely different pigeons totally unrelated over a 20 year period when he concentrated on short-middle-long racing.totally different pigeons...not the same ones as many suggest.point is......strains just dont exist.they are a figment of americans imaginations.just look at the ads in the back of your pigeon magazine.they are mentioning names that belgians of today dont even know,and in most cases never even heard of.also remember the best flyers in belgium are mostly unknown over here.thats where the ones you have heard of buy their "crosses" from.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2008)

i agree with you 100% they are what they are in their loft of today ,but once they leave that loft that is a thing of the past ..Just like Warren Smith has always said once in his loft they become sfl birds and thats the way it should be no matter where they came from .. you can only go forward with the bringing in of the right new blood but once they come or leave thats the start of a whole new generation altogether .. good post there k-will you have a great history of lifetime experiances there to share ,always a great read


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

thank you for the kind words.i was fortunate over the years because of jobs i had to travel the world and was able to meet many of the pigeon greats,especially in belgium,holland,and in the uk.unfortunately,it has taken me until now to actually wake up and listen to alot of the things i saw and was told by the fanciers themselves.i was caught up in the "strains",etc myself like many here are today.its mostly "print" and "hype" that started the term in the first place.many fanciers in the usa have success for awhile,but cant have success over many years because of this one subject.as you said in one of your posts,you have to improve on the genepool in your birds constantly to stay on top even in smaller competition,because eventually your competition catches up to you by flying what you fly.then where are you?the janssen line of pigeons are living proof of that.when they first arrived in this country,the fanciers that flew these pigeons absolutely crushed the competition they flew against.then after a few years,everyone was flying them and the great flyers had to adjust to stay ahead of their competition.they did this by finding the crosses that worked the best with their birds.some crossed the janssens right off the bat like the janssens would have themselves.they were the real "milkers",guys like tony melucci.they didnt fly the janssens "straight",they found the cross which made them better.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2008)

your very welcome and I always look foward to reading more of your insights  Relayed live experiances are always way better then reading the book if you know what I mean


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I would say ,yes there is strains within the pigeon world. A strain basicly is a set pattern bird line ,based on the breeder/ Person that developed that line. .NOW it is not done in a few short years ,But over an extended time period. Within any strain you find family lines of birds. A good loft will work on several families of birds. Crossing back and forth in the different lines keep it strong. Total out cross Even in the other countries Is based on relation facters To the old line and even outside the line. BUT it is bred and tested . A wrong move tears down performance. birds are bred to how the person trains and flys. As one line would perform better and faster to this method . While another line may not. Crossing out side of a line is bringing new viger To that line. It is well known tight inbred birds begin to loose out on perfomance. A shot in the arm brings this back. Some people bring in a little new blood each year others every few years. In the loftSelections are made based on past performance And breeding ability to reproduce quality. If you work your birds to go forward for say 5 years you are making your own strain of birds You find what lines are crossed well and what is average. To me a strain is family based line of birds that took years to breed up.


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