# Pigeon dropping seeds and retching



## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi Folks,

This is my first post, and I want to say heartfelt thank you to all of you who are doing so much for these wonderful birds. We (my wife and I) found a young pigeon that needed our help a couple of months ago, and since then we've made extensive use of this forum for practical advice and inspiration when the going got a little tough. 

We figure she was about 3 weeks old when we found her. It seems pretty clear that she has pmv. She turns her head upside down, flies backwards along the floor, and drops seeds amongst other things. Also has some pretty watery stools.

It's been a couple of months now and we're concerned we're failing her a bit and wondering what more we can do.

So here are a few questions we were hoping for some feedback on.


She has yet to successfully eat a seed on her own, although she tries all day long. She picks them up, they chatter in her beak, and then she drops them. Consequently, we tube feed her 3 times a day with infant bird food mixed with ground birdseed. Is there anything we can do to help her learn to eat the seeds? We do hand feed her some seeds each day by placing them in her mouth. Will she eventually figure out how to eat seeds on her own? We hate putting the tube down her throat as she really struggles against it.

Perhaps more urgently, for some time now she has been retching first thing in the morning even before we feed her, and usually afterwards. She does drink water before we feed her. Occasionally she'll bring up a seed or two, but that's only happened on a few occasions. Later in the day, she rarely retches. I did read about cankers and worms, but not sure about either. I've attached a photo showing a slight bit of white inside the left side of her mouth and wondered if it might be canker. Could this cause the retching? Should we treat her for canker and / or worms as a precaution?

Anyway, thanks for any thoughts.

Shawn
Bristol, UK


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its likely to be yeast, rather than canker; canker is usually found right in the back of the throat and it looks like a yellow plaque. You need to get an inexpensive product from the drug store called nystatin or nilstat to treat the yeast. Give about 0.2ml-0.5 ml per day , for ten days. It needs to come in contact with the yeast to be effective, so you may have to drizzle it around the beak area too. 

I also suggest worming with moxidectin, if you haven't already done so.

PS. I meant to also say well done, I can imagine how much work & stress this has been for you both. It does take a while for PMV victims to heal but it will be worth it in the end.

PPS. Its funny, I have treated a bird just recently with white plaque and little abscesses just like you photos. The cause was spiruroid worms, which live in the abscesses and eventually cause death. However I can't find any information about these throat worms being able to infect pigeons. Its a good idea to worm him anyway, moxidectin would kill throat worms on the off chance you pigeon had them.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

R u thinking of gape worm Bella?
I would give flagyl along with the nystatin just to cover the bases


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

As far as eating on her own if she didn't have all the neurological issues she would figure out how to eat on her own, I would keep tubing her as long as she us unable to eat on her own


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi Bella and altgirl.

Thanks for your responses. Will try and source the worming medication and the yeast medication asap.

Just had a google for gapeworm and the symptoms seem to match her "retching"... 


> They stretch out their necks, open their mouths and gasp for air producing a hissing noise as they do so."


In her case she does this and then "retches", seemingly trying to dislodge something from her throat or bring something up.

Will carry on with the tube feeding as long as she needs it 

Cheers,
Shawn


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

If a bird is stretching its neck as if trying to dislodge something that would generally indicate that 

a) there is an item of food stuck in the throat or attaching to it (the latter can happen with linseed which is sticky)
b) canker in the throat. Canker is yellowish in the mouth, may show as a white nodule in the throat cavity.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree altgirl & John, The flagyl is a great idea as well, to cover all bases. Canker could be there without any visible signs of it too.

Regarding gape worm, It probably should be mentioned that its rare in pigeons & I haven't seen it in Pigeons at all personally.

Altgirl, the spiruroid worms I mentioned are sometimes called gape worms, but gape worms are technically long red worms that join together in pairs, whereas spiruroid worms are small and white and live in white abscesses in the mouth , throat, lungs, and down the GI tract. The worm is common in some Australian native birds like magpies, and an infection basically looks just like the photos above, with the white plaque and raised nodules. A few drops of moxidectin on the back of the neck cures it very quickly, thankfully.

I saw something similar in the throat of a young pigeon last year that I assumed was canker. I had it on canker meds, antibiotics, and also wormed it, but it died. I later learned it was a yeast infection.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Shawn,

Just wanted to say if you don't manage to find a source for getting the Nystatin and Flagyl send me your address via a Private Message and I can send you some. Unfortunately it's not so easy to get meds in the UK without vet precriptions so some aren't available.

Thank you so much for all you're doing for this pigeon.

Janet


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hey folks,

Thanks for the additional info. 

We have an appointment with a vet this afternoon who specialises in exotic animals including birds, so I'm hoping she will be able to prescribe the proper meds. Have printed out your suggestions to point things in the right direction if necessary.

Will hope to get flagyl or and moxydectin (or similar) and nystatin.

Will keep you posted on the outcome.

Cheers,
Shawn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Oh Bella that's so grooooosssss! Blech!
Lol
Must say I'm glad I have never seen that
I've only had suspicion of gape worm but it's only been in robins who love eating earthworms where they pick up the parasite
I would find it odd for a piji to have it, but I suppose if a wild comes across a worm it wouldnt pass it up if hungry
Glad she's goin to the vet, keep us updated


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> Oh Bella that's so grooooosssss! Blech!
> Lol
> Must say I'm glad I have never seen that
> I've only had suspicion of gape worm but it's only been in robins who love eating earthworms where they pick up the parasite
> ...


Hey Altgirl!

Our wild insectivorous birds in Australia pick up gape worms (including the horrible little white spiruroid worms) from insects like earth worms and slugs too, which are the hosts....is that how you think they infected your robin? Apparently they also pass into the soil from droppings from dogs and other infected wildlife, which si perhaps how pigeons occassioanlly get them.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

kaslo said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> Thanks for the additional info.
> 
> ...


That's great Shawn, you are doing an excellent job. It will be great to get hold of the meds sooner rather than alter too. She's lucky to have met you


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hey Altgirl!
> 
> Our wild insectivorous birds in Australia pick up gape worms (including the horrible little white spiruroid worms) from insects like earth worms and slugs too, which are the hosts....is that how you think they infected your robin? Apparently they also pass into the soil from droppings from dogs and other infected wildlife, which si perhaps how pigeons occassioanlly get them.


Yes, it's pretty common with robins, signs are a cough, but it sounds more like a sneeze
Some bird rehabbers will always treat robins with ivermectin once they are older whether they show signs or not


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi Everyone,

We took pidge to a very nice and knowledgeable vet last night, who spent a good half hour with us, discussing and examining pidge. I'll try to recap what he said / did here, but can't guarantee I've got it all exactly straight.

We discussed worms, thrush, canker, pmv and a little mite my wife found on pidge a week or so ago. He said pidge has a pretty compromised immune system at the moment and doesn't want to hit her with too much all at once.

He said we definitely want to treat for worms and has put her on an appropriate dose of panacur (Fenbendazole) which is not officially indicated for birds, but he said they use it regularly on exotics with good results.

He examined her throat closely and said she probably has thrush which has been caused / aggravated by all the tube feeding (i.e. the mechanical action of it and the resulting inflammation of her throat). He sees that a lot in tube fed animals. He didn't want to put her on antibiotics as they would likely worsen the thrush. 

In the meantime, he said to add apple cider vinegar in her drinking water (16ml to 1litre of water). After reading about the benefits of the apple cider vinegar, I decided it might be worth putting a drop or two in her food, as I don't see her drinking a lot of water.

He did provide an non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (metacam oral) to help her throat inflammation, as well as a numbing spray (intubeaze) to numb her throat before tube feeding. Also suggested feeding her seeds by hand and drops of food in back of throat when possible to give her throat a rest. 

He took a throat swab and will send it to the lab depending on her improvement over the next week or so, as the lab work is quite costly.

Provided some multivitamin powder to add to her food.

He watched her picking up seeds and dropping and suggested she might have more success with smaller seeds (tiny budgie seeds?).

Can't remember if there was a reason we didn't end up with Nystatin (or similar) for yeast infection. It may just be that he wanted to take a stepwise approach. I might give a call back to clarify about that. If it wouldn't do any harm, I'd like to get her on that sooner rather than later.

So we've started the worming program and the rest, and hope to see some improvement soon. Thank you all again for your help. I will keep you updated with her progress and any questions or problems that arise.

Kindest Regards,
Shawn (and Beth and Pidge)

By the way, in case anyone comes across this post in the future when looking for care here in the UK, the Vet was Highcroft Veterinary Group's office in Brislington. They have a referral service with a number of exotic pet specialists from the Bristol Zoo who attend the clinic on certain days of the week. They can be found here. http://www.highcroftvet.co.uk/


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> That's great Shawn, you are doing an excellent job. It will be great to get hold of the meds sooner rather than alter too. She's lucky to have met you


Thanks Bella. We're lucky to have met her. She has taught us a lot about the value of each and every life.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Sounds good to me, and u have the option of changing things up as needed


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Panacur (Fenbendazole) is not safe for pigeons. Pigeons have died using it. Sometimes vets will prescribe it for a pigeon without realizing this, but most won't use that drug on a pigeon.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/use-of-dewormers-20566.html?highlight=panacur

And if the bird has thrush, then I would have thought that he would have given you Nystatin (or similar).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I've been thinking about it, and If it were me, I would definitely call the vet back and get the Nystatin, as it really isn't very costly. Did he do a gram stain? If so, what did he find?
When a bird is sick, by the time they start showing symptoms, it is often too late. If he doesn't get better, and you wait to send the swab to the lab, It would easily be too late to help the bird, as a culture will take a while. If he did a gram stain in the office, that would have told him what bacteria the bird had and given him a pretty good idea of what to treat with, without having the culture done.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree wholeheartedly with Jay!

-Firstly, the Vet diagnosed a yeast (thrush) infection, so you definitely need Nystatin to fix it. It doesn't get better with apple cidar vinegar alone that I know of . Yeast is extremely irritating and makes the bird feel like throwing up, and it can cause the crop to stop working and kill it  When you get sour crop problems and you are inexperienced, its very hard to save the bird. Your pigeon is on the brink of getting this.

-Secondly, Fenbendazole really does kill pigeons, like Jaye said. Please, please don't use it. We've seen a lot of pigeons killed by it on this forum, because of Avian vets prescribing it without realising the risks to pigeons specificially. Just don't use it, you don't need to. Use ivermectin or moxidectin instead.

I'm sorry you paid all that money to see a vet, only to get fairly ordinary advice. I'm sure he was a nice person, but he really should have given you Nystatin, and a safe wormer.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree with everything Jay has posted.

I nearly killed a pigeon by giving her panacur. My vet was unaware that it's toxic to pigeons and doves and I didn't pay attention that she had given a generic version. After the second dose and the bird very ill, I realized what was going on and stopped the medication. Any wormer that is a single dose, repeated in 10- 14 days is much safer. Please do remember that wormer is poison.
Another thing I want to tell you is that when a bird is ill, it's more a kin to a human being ill for a week. With this one, you may not have time to hold off on that culture if you want to save the bird.
Really, as Jay suggested, in the very least call back and ask the vet for nystatin.

All the best.


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I didn't see the second page of responses, so thanks to Jay for letting me know there were more messages.

Thank you for alerting us to the dangers of Panacur. We have done two doses already but will cease using it immediately. Haven't noticed any adverse effects yet, so hopefully we haven't done any harm. As an aside, the dose we gave her was quite low (i.e. 2.5 mg). The doses in the article in Journal of Avian Medicine do appear to be quite a bit higher (i.e. 50-100mg / kg of body weight) so again, hopefully no damage done.

I've booked in to see the the same vet again tonight. As I say, he was very caring and I'm sure had the best intentions. Will take along a copy of the article to alert him to the dangers and see if we can get something more suitable. Will also get some nystatin if possible. If not, I will source it somewhere else.

Can anyone suggest the name(s) of a suitable wormer which can be found here in the UK? I think it is best to go in with a suggestion of what we'd like to get her on.

Thank you all again. I will keep you posted.
Best Regards,
Shawn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so glad you came back, as your last comment had sounded as though you may be gone for a little bit, and come back later to update us. You should have no trouble getting the Nystatin from your vet. If not, then Amyable had offered to send you some. If not the vet, then I would definitely take her up on her kind offer, as if not treated, it can cause a lot of problems for the poor bird. Thank you for heading the warnings on Panacur and stopping it. Please let us know how it goes at the vet.


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> I'm so glad you came back, as your last comment had sounded as though you may be gone for a little bit, and come back later to update us. You should have no trouble getting the Nystatin from your vet. If not, then Amyable had offered to send you some. If not the vet, then I would definitely take her up on her kind offer, as if not treated, it can cause a lot of problems for the poor bird. Thank you for heading the warnings on Panacur and stopping it. Please let us know how it goes at the vet.


Thanks again Jay. 
Just lucky I checked my email and saw your message.
Will definitely keep you posted on vet visit.
Cheers.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I had no idea about the pancacur, used it early on in the gulls just cause i had some left over from the raccoons
I started using the worm out plus tabs a few yrs ago 
I wanted something that covered just about everything cause I can't afford to fecal everybody
I also don't deworm until they are stable unless I believe that worms are the culprit


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

altgirl35 said:


> I had no idea about the pancacur, used it early on in the gulls just cause i had some left over from the raccoons
> I started using the worm out plus tabs a few yrs ago
> I wanted something that covered just about everything cause *I can't afford to fecal everybody*
> I also don't deworm until they are stable unless I believe that worms are the culprit


Besides, worms or eggs don't show up in every dropping. You need to get the right dropping and how do you know you have done that?!
I've seen worms emerging, from the rear of several birds and my dog, taken a sample of poop for analysis, only to be told there was no evidence of worms.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Charis said:


> Besides, worms or eggs don't show up in every dropping. You need to get the right dropping and how do you know you have done that?!
> I've seen worms emerging, from the rear of several birds and my dog, taken a sample of poop for analysis, only to be told there was no evidence of worms.


took a class at nwra symposium last yr, got all the stuff to do them
but you know what, everything looks like they have worms to me!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> took a class at nwra symposium last yr, got all the stuff to do them
> *but you know what, everything looks like they have worms to me!*


*

*

Maybe they all do! LOL.


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hey Folks,

Saw the vet again this evening and discussed Panacur and Pidge's thrush.

He said that he is aware of potential toxicity issues with Panacur at higher doses. However, he said that he deals with a lot of racing pigeons and has treated quite a few with Panacur with no problems. He said he has a number of fanciers who use Panacur quite extensively as well. He said the problems tend to occur when treating large flocks where the dosing cannot be as finely controlled, versus the low and controlled dosing of individuals.

Having said that, he said that he was happy for us to discontinue it if we were still uncomfortable with it. He said the other option he considered for her was Flubenvet, however, it is normally used for chickens, turkeys and geese, and the dosing can be a bit trickier because it is usually added to food on a larger scale.

So, we've decided on the following approach:


Given the advice here on the forum, we suggested we'd like to get her on Nystatin immediately, which he was happy to do.
Discontinue Panacur (and hopefully the couple of doses she had will have some beneficial effect if she does have worms).
He does believe her immune system is quite compromised, and still wants to be cautious about hitting her with too many things all at once, so we're going to see how she is doing in a week or so, and look at getting her on to Flubenvet.

So hopefully with this regimen we're on the right track.

Again, thanks for everyone's input and concern. We'll keep you posted on our progress.

Kindest Regards,
Shawn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Shawn,

Good on you for following up & getting the Nystatin. 

Regarding the wormer the vet recommended, Flubenvet (Flubendazole), this is a Benzimidazole just like Fenbendazole therefore its likely to cause exactly the same problems as panacur. I personally don't use any of the variations of Fenbendazole in sick feral pigeons because I have seen even the variations kill.

If you have a moment, you might appreciate reading this thread from last year, where an avian vet prescribed panacur to a member's new frillbacks, which killed them. It was very sad for her & none of us would like to see that happen to you.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-regurgitating-feed-56670.html


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here are some more threads.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/bir...ead-10546.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/vet...ees-10564.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/fin...ews-10648.html


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi Everyone,

Have read the posts and will stay away from Flubenvet as well. Have contacted Janet to see if she might be able to help us out with an appropriate wormer.

Pigeon, has had a pretty rough night. She has been vomiting up food since yesterday afternoon (i.e. head back and spraying bits of liquid food onto her back). 

She is doing the action where she stretches her head way back to her tail, her chest appears puffed, and seems quite distressed and shuffles backwards. It seems like she's having trouble getting air, OR she's trying to work something up. As of this morning, it usually ends with her bringing up food.

Very hard to tell whether it is a breathing problem or a stomach problem. She seems to have a lot of air in her crop and when feeling her crop. I can't feel any lumps or hard bits (like swollen seeds) in her crop, but then I'm fairly new to this. And really it doesn't even feel like there is much food in there - mostly air.

I will try to get a little video clip of what she is doing and post it somewhere, as it might help to see what she is doing.

We're off the chemist now to get Nystatin and get her started on that right away. 

Sorry if I'm missing something from previous posts, but at this time, should we be treating her for anything else, besides worms and thrush?

Thank you for all of your help so far. Hopefully we'll get her through this soon.

Shawn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I still think she should get treated with flagyl, even if she doesn't have trich/canker 
It also helps with a host of digestive issues 
Now u say when u feel her crop it feels like air? Is that new?
Is it possible she has a ruptured air sack?
Can cause respiratory distress and even death
She sounds like she is really in trouble, an if she were here in my care I would be throwing lots if meds at her
Flagyl, antibiotic like Baytril and the nystatin
Did the vet get a result from the swab?
How do her droppings look?
Can you take a pic if them?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry you guys had such a bad night. You're doing good with the poor little thing. Good that you're getting the Nystatin, and letting Janet help you with meds is a good idea.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I may even consider meloxicam to help her with pain and inflammation 
I know it's difficult to get so many opinions 
We all have different ways of doin things


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The vet didn't do a gram stain in the office to look for bacteria? That should be done even if the swab isn't sent out. Is it PMV that this little one has? If so, then antibiotics aren't going to treat it anyway. They would treat any secondary infections she might have. I would wait and treat with the Nystatin and get that cleared up first, as antibiotics would just make that worse. Have you tried feeding frozen peas, that have been defrosted and warmed up? Feeding them by hand by placing them in her mouth and to the back of the throat?


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

altgirl35 said:


> I still think she should get treated with flagyl, even if she doesn't have trich/canker
> It also helps with a host of digestive issues
> Now u say when u feel her crop it feels like air? Is that new?
> Is it possible she has a ruptured air sack?
> ...


Hi Guys,

Just went in to update this post, but accidentally deleted it. Soon after I posted, I went and saw pidge and she had another "attack". I have taken a little video and will post it up on youtube and post a link back here, as I think it will explain more than I can.

********************

Hey Altgirl and Jay,

Pidge seems a bit better this afternoon. She went through a pretty rough 24 hours or so. I thought we might wake up to a dead or dying pigeon this morning, but in the past 8 hours or so, she seems to have improved markedly.

We've had her in her cage and keeping her quiet and warm. Probably nothing much left in her stomach, but either way, she seems brighter and calmer. She has taken some water with electrolytes. We haven't given her any food for 24 hours either, as I don't think she'd tolerate it at the moment, and we just want her tummy to settle down.

Have started her on Nystatin this morning. 

I'm with you altgirl. I think hitting her with whatever drugs we can is a good idea at the moment, to try and knock her main ailment on the head. Will see if Janet can help us out with an antibiotic too. Might be a bit easier and less confusing than another vet visit. And he was really reluctant about the antibiotic given that it might make the thrush worse.

Pidge really hasn't had droppings today, probably because there wasn't much food left in her. She normally has lots of droppings when she is eating. Will take a picture when they start up again.

I've just done some reading up on it, and it is my feeling that it is not a ruptured air sac. My description may have been misleading. When she is gasping she is just very puffed up with her neck extended. Sometimes when I feel her crop to see how the food is going, I just find there is a bit of air in there - like she's got a bit of gas. I just give a little massage and she burps it up. It doesn't seem to bother her. But will keep an eye on that.

With regard to the swab he took of her mouth, we haven't gone ahead with the lab work on that (yet). I feel bad that money comes into it, but the cost of the lab work is a bit more than we feel we can spend right now. So for now we'll just get a bit more aggressive with the drugs and hope we hit whatever it is.



altgirl35 said:


> I may even consider meloxicam to help her with pain and inflammation
> I know it's difficult to get so many opinions
> We all have different ways of doin things


It is a bit difficult to try and balance all of the valuable advice / information we're getting here with what the vet says, and our own instinct. But better lots of info that we can consider than just trying to figure it out on our own.

We have an NSAID (like meloxicam) but I know NSAIDs can cause tummy problems and need to be taken with food, so will get her back on that when we start getting some food into her.

I really do appreciate how much time you've taken. Thank you again.

Will let you know if anything changes.

Cheers,
Shawn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree that treating her for canker for canker would be a good idea. 
I don't know if you have pepto bismo there...it's a human medicine for heart burn...if you can find it, give the bird a couple of drops and that often will stop the vomiting.

One of the biggest problems with all the vomiting is that it can cause dehydration and it would help a lot if she were given sub Q fluids. This needs to be done by someone that knows how to do it and knows where to give fluids to birds. Fluids should only be given in the web part of skin between the leg and body.
I really think you need a different vet because I'm very concerned with the advise you have been given and the treatment, or lack of, she's been given.


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> The vet didn't do a gram stain in the office to look for bacteria? That should be done even if the swab isn't sent out. Is it PMV that this little one has? If so, then antibiotics aren't going to treat it anyway. They would treat any secondary infections she might have. I would wait and treat with the Nystatin and get that cleared up first, as antibiotics would just make that worse. Have you tried feeding frozen peas, that have been defrosted and warmed up? Feeding them by hand by placing them in her mouth and to the back of the throat?


Hi Jay,

She does have PMV. She has all the classic symptoms (e.g. dropping seeds, stargazing, spinning, watery stools - but not as much as a couple months ago). I think I mentioned that in one of the earlier posts, but of course, we've posted an awful lot of info since then, so easy to lose track  Could that be causing some of these problems (i.e. the vomiting - gasping)?

Vet did a throat swab. Is that what they would use for a gram stain?

I agree as does the vet that the antibiotics would make thrush worse, so will hold off on those until we've seen if the Nystatin is successful.

Currently we tube feed (as she drops her seeds, presumable because of the PMV). We use infant bird formula with ground seeds and vitamins mixed in. Have fed her peas in the past, but they don't seem to get digested very well. When we get her back on solid food, we might try the peas again. 

Cheers,
Shawn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, he could have done a gram stain with that. I have to agree with Charis, in that I would treat for canker. That could also make her vomit. And the Pepto she mentioned does help with that. And the sub Q fluids would also help I think. I also think maybe a different vet would have done things differently.


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Charis said:


> I agree that treating her for canker for canker would be a good idea.
> I don't know if you have pepto bismo there...it's a human medicine for heart burn...if you can find it, give the bird a couple of drops and that often will stop the vomiting.
> 
> One of the biggest problems with all the vomiting is that it can cause dehydration and it would help a lot if she were given sub Q fluids. This needs to be done by someone that knows how to do it and knows where to give fluids to birds. Fluids should only be given in the web part of skin between the leg and body.
> I really think you need a different vet because I'm very concerned with the advise you have been given and the treatment, or lack of, she's been given.


Will get some pepto or equivalent and get a couple drops in her.

Don't think we'll go back to this vet. I do think he is quite knowledgable, and definitely has her best interests at heart, but maybe a bit too cautious? From what I'm hearing here on the forums we need to be quite aggressive with a sick pigeon as things can go down hill quite quickly.

Don't think we'll be able to do the sub-Q fluids as we don't have the knowledge and are not able to do another vet visit right now. But she is drinking and taking in electrolytes, which we hope will help.

Cheers,
Shawn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Shawn, have just seen your msg and replied.

I meant to check, I assume you've managed to get Nystatin ok?

Janet


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi Janet,
Yes, we've got her on Nystatin now.
Hoping we'll seem some improvement soon.
Thanks so much,
Shawn


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Ok Folks,
This is the plan for now...


A couple of drops of pepto to calm her stomach
Treat for Thrush - Nystatin - we've started this today
Treat for worms at the same time with Harper-Mectin - just ordered some - should be here in 2 days
Treat for Canker with Flagyl in about a week (after treating for Thrush as antibiotics will potentially make thrush worse)
Give her probiotics / vitamins / electrolytes
Continue with anti-inflammatory for her inflamed throat (and possibly tummy) - caused by all the tube feeding
Keep her warm and calm

I hope this seems reasonable.

Cheers,
Shawn


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

I've posted a 35 second video on youtube of Pidge's gasping / retching thing she is doing. She is not doing this all the time, but probably every hour or so, she'll have a little episode.

Maybe seeing it will offer some insight into what's going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK4mns7x6K4&feature=youtu.be

Cheers,
Shawn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

U can give the flagyl along with everything it's not a strong antibiotic, at least in my opinion


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes I agree. She should be treated for canker.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Shawn, Just watched the video. It's so hard to see them struggling like that.

Watching it a few times I'm wondering if this is part of the seizures associated with her PMV although she obviously hasn't been doing this from day one.
She may be struggling to breath due to the fact her neck is so far back and as a result it causes her to vomit. It just looks as if she doesn't have any control over what she's doing for that time and then it calms down as if it's like a seizure.
I have one ex PMV survivor that has been left with quite severe twisting even though he's fit and ok in all other ways.
His head doesn't go straight back like your pigeon but he twists right underneath him most of the time and it takes him a while before he can bring it back to a normal position.

I'll be interested to hear what anyone else thinks as well.

Janet


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

As general protocol, I give antibiotics and nystatin to keep my birds from getting a yeast infection while they are on the antibiotics.
If she has been vomiting, dehydration can make her much worse and intensify any neurological symptoms. Any living creature can go longer without food than they can without water.
That's a very sad video to watch. You must feel very helpless.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I thankfully have only had one case of pmv 
She was a mourning dove and i had to euthanize her
She thrashed, flipped on her back and was just a terrified uncontrollable freaked out,panting mess
She just was suffering too much
That video is just so sad, does she ever normal out at all?


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Charis said:


> I agree that treating her for canker for canker would be a good idea.
> I don't know if you have pepto bismo there...it's a human medicine for heart burn...if you can find it, give the bird a couple of drops and that often will stop the vomiting.
> 
> One of the biggest problems with all the vomiting is that it can cause dehydration and it would help a lot if she were given sub Q fluids. This needs to be done by someone that knows how to do it and knows where to give fluids to birds. Fluids should only be given in the web part of skin between the leg and body.
> I really think you need a different vet because I'm very concerned with the advise you have been given and the treatment, or lack of, she's been given.





altgirl35 said:


> U can give the flagyl along with everything it's not a strong antibiotic, at least in my opinion


Hey Altgirl and Jay,

That was the one thing I was a bit unclear about (i.e. Flagyl being an anti-biotic, but still giving it when Pidge might have thrush).

Now that I understand, we'll look at getting it on her sooner rather than later. It will take a couple of days to arrive anyway, so hopefully by then the Nystatin will have taken hold and Pidge will be on the mend.

Thanks for the additional info.
Shawn


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

altgirl35 said:


> I thankfully have only had one case of pmv
> She was a mourning dove and i had to euthanize her
> She thrashed, flipped on her back and was just a terrified uncontrollable freaked out,panting mess
> She just was suffering too much
> That video is just so sad, does she ever normal out at all?


So sad to hear you had to put your dove down. But of course, it is the kindest thing if they're suffering.

Pidge has some pretty good days and has some great lap time with me and my wife. We're hoping the PMV symptoms, especially the seed dropping will get better soon, as we feel so sorry for her, having to tube feed her all the time.

She has been having these vomiting "episodes" for a month or so occasionally, but they've only really become more frequent in the last few days so hoping they'll settle down again.

I don't think she's suffering too much at the moment, and we try to comfort her when she is, and that seems to help. I think it's just a bit scary for her.

Talk soon,
Shawn


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

It must be scary to them, your girl is not nearly as severe as the dove was
And the dove was a wild adult, they are high stress birds to begin with, can litteraly die from fright
One thing I do when I want to keep a bird hydrated is watering down the formula pretty good
Obviously she cant handle a nice big feeding, but maybe many small ones throughout the day, with fluids in between
Oh just want to hold her and make her feel secure, poor little thing
I hope she gets over the pmv really soon


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for the update again and for posting the video too. She is so helpless and you are doing a tremendous job with caring for her, what special people you are

I totally agree with the advice the others have given you & with what you're doing for her. 

I wanted to remind you that Nilstat needs to be in contact with yeast to kill it , as it doesn't get absorbed into the pigeon's system. So make sure you dribble some around the mouth area.

PS. I use Nilstat with antibiotics too. In a case like this where you know that yeast is a problem, I agree with what you're doing and giving yeast treatment for a couple of days before adding the antibiotics. To kill yeast, the usual treatment is 10 days too

Keep up the excellent work!!


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

How is she doin?


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

altgirl35 said:


> How is she doin?


Hey Folks,

Happy to report that Pidge seems to be doing much better. Hard to know what exactly was going on for those few rough days, and I think it may have been a combination of things (i.e. thrush, seizures from PMV, the worming meds, maybe us giving her too much food when she wasn't feeling well, etc).

She started improving yesterday and today she seems like a different pigeon. She is much brighter and back to her feisty self  She has been doing some preening and has got herself looking much better.

It's only been a few days, but it feels like maybe the Nystatin is having a beneficial effect. We've got her back eating her formula in small doses (10 - 15 ml) at a feeding, and she has been tolerating it well.

We've got some Flagyl on the way thanks to Janet and have ordered some proper worming meds, so we're getting her all sorted. Now if we can just get her through this PMV...

Anyway, I'm sure we're not out of the woods yet with Pidge, but thank you all for your wonderful support. I don't know what we would have done with out it. And I'm sure we'll be back for more help before this is all over.

Will keep you posted on Pidge's progress.
Cheers,
Shawn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

She very well may have been reacting mostly, to the worming medication. Nystatin works very quickly and so does flagyl.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

That's great news! Praying she keeps improving


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

Charis said:


> She very well may have been reacting mostly, to the worming medication. Nystatin works very quickly and so does flagyl.


Yeah, I have a feeling you may be right about the worming meds. I'm glad we discontinued it when we did, as she was going downhill pretty fast.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

So glad she is doing better. Keep us updated.


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## kaslo (Jan 24, 2012)

altgirl35 said:


> That's great news! Praying she keeps improving


Thanks for all your help and prayers. I have a good feeling about her. She's a real fighter this one


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