# Problem with broken leg pijjie, need help ASAP!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, i feel like a real moron right now! I feel really, really bad. The broken leg pijjie, posted another thread about him a few weeks ago, i splinted the leg and have been waiting for it to heal. I changed the splint on thursday morning last time, and the leg still felt loose, but i havent really wiggled it in fear of breaking it if it had started to heal. I was gone last night, and i had started to tube feed about a week ago because he was getting thin, and a rehabber told me with BB that sometimes they wont eat when you put splints on, anything foreign on, because they will kind of throw a fit like, and go on a hunger strike. So i dont know if he started eating again, looks like mostly he makes a mess, MAYBE some of it went down his throat, who knows, so kept up the tube feeding just in case.
Last night his foot seemed dark in a few spots, not dark, but darker, so i lossened up the splint by cutting it in a few spots, had to go to work, so got back today and those spots that were just a little darker are PURPLE now. I cut off the splint right away, and it looks as if the spot where the break is is infected. I'm attaching pics in one second, bear with me here.
The skin was flaking off in the spot, two toes are purple, one isnt, and the break it seems hasnt healed AT ALL, i wiggled it and it still moves side to side.
The foot WASNT like this at all when i last changed splint. Now i am AFRAID to splint it, but he cant walk on that foot like that. Should he be put in one of those swing things? He doesnt use that foot much, if at all, so it must hurt. What could this be? Just infection? What does he need?
I'll be right back with pics, hold on.......


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, someone mentioned i should put a warning before directing people to my pigeon album! It is the "saw" version of pigeons, so i am warning you, lots of sickies and injuries in there!
This guy is the last 6 pictures, and the last 3 pictures are the ones i took today. Darn, the foot is like purple black in those spots, last night it was just a little darker pink. He pooped in my hand while i was holding him (Thanks pijjie!), and it seemed very watery, like clear water, mixed with forest green chunks and streams of white urates. The green seemed to be bits, like broken up. Like pellets or something. No pic, sorry, it was all over me, had to get it off while i had him in one hand and camera in other.
http://public.fotki.com/xxscribblerxx/pigeons/

How could it have gotten so dark so quick? Seems rather sudden, but i guess it probably has been growing in size since i last changed it and it just now went past brace. Darn, i feel like an idiot right now. Should of been keeping a closer eye in him.....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

this is when i wish i knew of a vet nearby, and the wildlife place will only treat if they deem it releasable, and i am so afraid they will deem him unreleasable if they think it's not worth their money/time to treat the leg, or see the only option as cutting it off, which would deem him unreleasable, which would mean he would be PTS.
The goose and pigeon i gave to them in september, they STILL say they cant tell me what happened to it, they keep saying wait for our update in the mail, it'll come in a month. Well, its been many months! So frustrating!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,

To me that looks like gangrene rather than bruising, in pigeons it is usually dry gangrene and is usually caused by lack of blood supply as a result of ligature or poisoning, but it can also be "moist gangrene" or "gas gangrene" which is caused by bacteria and contained by surgery.

The speed with which it appears to be spreading is worrying. This is really something that a vet should look at. You could start him on antibiotics. What meds do you have? 

I think that you have a good collection of reference photos there and I appreciate it as a resource.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cr*p, i dont know a vet that knows anything about pigeons! What should i do?????
What meds does he need? I have a bunch of meds now. Just tell me what he needs and i'll see if i have it....


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I would give it Clavamox, you can also give Baytril at the same time (according to my vet)

This is a link to gangrene in humans, I assume the same principles of treatment apply.

http://my.diabetovalens.com/complications/gangrene.asp

I remember discussing gas gangrene with a work colleague and she said something about one day it will be a velvety spot, the next day all the toes will be black.

But this is really one for Reti, who will probably have seen it first hand in humans.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

here's what i have

ciloxin .3% eye drop 2.5 ml
Spartix 10 mg
metacam 2ml
neem oil
colloidal silver
liquid calcium
albon .10ml
azithromycin 250mg
nyastatin .8 BID/14 days
Arnica
Amoxicillan 500 mg tabs
cephalexin 500mg
cipro 500mg
amoxicillan 10% powder
enrofloxyn .2 ml/kg of B.W. for 5-7 days
ivermectin (wormer)
divet
appertex 2.5 mg
Augmentin (amoxicillan + clavulanic acid) 875/125 mg
cephalexin 50 mg
flagyl 500mg and 250 mg

Tell me what i need to give him, and PLEASE pretty please help me with the dosing! I laready KNOW what Pidgey is gonna say to that one! "You gotta learn the doses yourself SOMEDAY, why not today!" LOL!
Gimme a break and tell me the dosing before he sees this thread! He's anywhere between 260-300 grams, sorry, i'm waiting for my new scale to come in the mail, in the meantime it's the kitchen scale that is a bit harder to weigh them on, it fluctuates quite a bit, expecially with squirming birds!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oops, no clavamox, darn! They have some at my cat shelter, but it is powder which you then add water to, and it's for cats. It just says how much water to add and how many ML to then give to the cat, not any kind of mg per ml info, etc...
Is there something i can give until i order some clavamox, it'll take a few days to get here though! DARN! I dont want him to lose his freakin' foot!
I mean, should i just chance it and take him to any AVIAN vet that will see him?

I have to leave for a few hours, i tube fed him, gave him baytril, considering it is sunday, cant do much vet wise anyhow. That article on gangrene is scary Cynthia! I HOPE it isnt gangrene, but i kind of suspect it is. 
I'm going to try and call this rehabber lady that doesnt do rehabbing anymore, was kind of a real mean lady, ok, not kind of, was, and see if she will give me her old vets name, that is, IF she will even talk to me. I dont understand how someone can be a rehabber for years and just TURN it off like she did, i mean, like the "care" switch turned to off mode. I guess people just do get very burnt out, it is a thankless, tiring hobby, i say hobby, because it isnt a career really, you dont get paid for it. Maybe she'll help, maybe not, we'll see.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You could try an avian vet, just don't do anything impulsive like having him put down without thinking it over.

If you can get Clavamox from the shelter, just ask them how much Clavamox there is in the solution. They must know that to come up with the dosage for cats. We can take it from there.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Gangrene is treated with Metronidazole.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Gangrene is treated with Metronidazole.


Actually a combination such as penicillin, gentamicin and metronidazole is recommended. That covers gram negative, gram positive and anaerobes. But that is with supportive surgery because antibiotics don't penetrate the necrotic tissues. I have never used Gentamicine, I know that it can cause kidney damage in birds

Raina, I just noticed that you have amoxicillin. When pidge-pidge had a wounded wood pigeon and only 500 mg capsules of amoxicillin she used that , crushed and diluted with water.

The Clavamox 50 mg Clavamox tablets have 40mg of amoxicillin and we (in the UK) would give a large pigeon half a 40 mg tablet (20 mg) twice a day

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Flagyl is metronidazole and augmentin is same as clavamox. In any case, to cover all possible pathogens, you could give amoxicillin, flagyl and cipro or baytril. Dosages...I'll look it up...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Sabina,

Nooti's drug chart is a quick source of reference for those three drugs: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15947&referrerid=560

The mathematics of calculating the exact dosage for a particular pidge takes me ages of calcul;ating and re-checking...I don't have a methematical brain!

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

SABINA! So nice to see, i mean, hear from, i mean, you know what i mean!  
So, Sabina, what do you think, gangrene? I know, you are probably wondering what happened to my plan of walking where there is no pigeons and not being able to care for anymore sickies, but, i'm a sucker, what can i say!
I'll try and get a hold of that rehabber again, because i think this one needs a vet for sure, especially if it is gangrene. 
So, what would be the dosing on those meds?  I'll figure it out someday, i promise! It is just so confusing to me considering the dosage is written for KG and they weigh in Grams. I know it's just a few decimal points, but honestly, i REALLY dont trust myself with it, with math in general, because i swear i could of killed a bird a while ago if it had been a different drug i was giving him!
So, Sabina, should i give the augmentin, since it is same as clavamox? And gangrene, doesnt it need to be surgically cut out, or is that not always the case?

ok, so augmentin, flagyl, and baytril? I guess at least until i can get him seen somewhere here....
Poor guy, actually, i'm pretty sure it's a gal, just a hunch really....


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

ok here's what i came up with:

flagyl 20-50mg/kg bid. going with 50mg...0.300kg x 50mg=15mg bid. using a 250mg tablet dissolved into 5ml, it would be approx 0.3ml bid

same with amoxicillin (i would go with amoxicillin over augmentin since you're already going to give 2 other antibiotics, you don't need the broader coverage of augmentin): 50mg/kg is 15 mg bid, dissolve 250mg (1/2 of 500mg tablet) into 5 ml, and it's 0.3 ml bid.

now baytril. you say it's 0.2ml/kg, that would be 0.2 x 0.3kg which would be 0.06 ml bid. but i don't like not knowing what the actual concentration is. so i would use cipro instead. but cipro isn't on helen's chart. ASSUMING the dose is the same for cipro and baytril, 20mg/kg would mean 6mg bid. divide 500mg tablet in half, dissolve 250mg into 5 ml, and that makes 50mg/ml. that would be 0.1 ml bid approximately. 

anyone want to doublecheck my calculations? well the only thing i really need to know is the cipro dosage for pigeons...anyone know if same as for baytril?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, Sabina, i know the dosage for baytril, so we're all set. I'm giving another guy baytril, so i'm guessing it'll be the same since they are the same weight.
Now, the BID means what again? Once daily or twice daily?
So, he will be ok considering he WONT be getting clavamox? Now, what is your experience with gangrene? Does it need to be cut out? Obviously by a vet, not me! But i mean does a vet have to cut gangrene out or can the antibiotics heal it? 
Now, everyone, should i still be trying to get this guy into a vet or not? Should i brace it or not?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

sorry didn't say...HI RAINA! it does seem like gangrene, which would probably need to be amputated, but it's hard to say really. a vet does need to see it. so there are 2 types of gangrene, dry and wet. with dry gangrene, the area is hard and black, and with wet gangrene, it's grey and soft. dry gangrene happens when the blood supply is cut off, as opposed to wet gangrene which happens from severe infection. so maybe the fractured bone has shifted in such a way that it's cutting off circulation? with dry gangrene, it can become infected though, in which case it would probably smell bad. any odor?
what about taking the bird to just any avian vet and pretending it's your pet? you haven't found any vet in the boston area still, huh?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

just saw your reply...sorry, BID means twice daily. and the pigeon definitely needs to get to a vet...
my experience is all primary (clinic) care, but the patients i've had who have gotten gangrene, it has needed to be cut out. dead tissue as a general rule needs to be removed. with dry gangrene, sometimes vascular surgery can be done to repair the circulation problem though. antibiotics can't heal the problem on their own.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh cr*p, not good at all. I just called a few places, waiting to hear back about a vet that is recommended. There is a bird rehabber in western ma, and if she recommends a vet i'll take it there. I think Karen went somewhere but wasnt impressed with it, i just suspect anyplace will want to PTS, or cut the entire leg off. I think you must be right, the leg bone isnt healing, it must be doing something in there to cause this.
In the meantime, i just have to give meds here, tomorrow is evacuation day, it's a holiday in MA for some reason, and st patricks day, but i mean, i cant take him to a vet until one of these rehabbers calls me and gives me a referal. One of them, who doesnt do rehabbing anymore, says she had a vet that WOULD see wildlife, it was way out somewhere, but now that my roommate has a car i could get a ride i suppose. So i am waiting for her call back, i just need to treat him SOMEHOW in the meantime. I guess this will do.
Yes, it seemed like, after i took pics, the TOP layer of skin kind of just flaked off, and it's kind of whitish/pinkish underneath, i tried to press the skin back so it would scab up instead of falling off.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here are some pictures of Alice's Pirate--he had a bad trauma to the leg that eventually resolved but he still lost some toes. They turned blue, then black:

http://community.webshots.com/album/552451986GMBHMI

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

raina, if it's pinkish underneath, then gangrene is not as likely...i discussed with pidgey, and maybe you can just keep the pijie on 2 antibiotics for now. keep doing flagyl/metronidazole same as i said. then do you have the augmentin 875 tablets? if so, can switch from amox to that. i'll let you know the dose if you do have them...


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, let me check if i still have them. Um, what worries me is that the leg doesnt seem to have fused back together at all. I mean, isnt bird bone supposed to start healing in like 48 hours or something crazy like that?
Let me go check if i have the augmentin. Darn, i just ordered some stuff from Jedds too, I coulda added clavamox to that order if i had known about this darn leg yesterday.
In the meantime, I have an 8 page paper on munchausen syndrome due in a week. Ever come across that Sabina? Pretty weird stuff...


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, still have the augmentin 875/125 mg pills that you gave me Sabina, i have 4 left. That'll be enough until i can figure something out for him. So, what exactly would be the dosing for augmentin? Thanks, even if i did figure it out, i'd want to double check anyways, i would feel like an idiot if i just gave it without checking, and i'd probably kill the bird in the process....


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,

A paper on Munchhausen's should be very interesting to write. I read once about a man who had had something like 17 operations. 10 were as a result of his disease, the other 7 were as a result of complications caused by the initial, unnecessary complications. At leat he would be one man that was happy to have complications that required surgery.

How is the foot today? If there are any changes, please take a photo for your album! Oh..and let us see it.

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

ok if you dissolve 1/2 tab into 5 ml, that gives you 437mg/5 ml, which gives you 87mg/1 ml, so giving 20 mg twice a day is 0.25 ml twice a day (approx).

i did have a pt we suspected of munchausen's...the mom would bring the daughter and lie about positive tests the girl supposedly had in the ER/hospital. it was sad...

i don't know what to say about the fracture. maybe the bones weren't aligned when the brace was put on? maybe the leg has been too mobile for the bones to set? we haven't dealt with any bad fractures (plus we have animal general)--phil seems to have lots of fracture experience, maybe you could pm him about it?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i found a vet, in Acton, i have an emergency appoint,ment at 9 AM. it is supposed to be a good vet for wildlife, and they will charge less considering it is wildlife. Something like people will donate to a wildlife vet care fund, so they will do what they can, and i dont know howfar they will go with it. He came highly recommended, i just talked to a rehabber, well, ex rehabber, that recommended him, I never had a way to get out there before, and the vets near me are not good for wildlife, they usually pull the plug and charge you $300 to do that. We'll see, this guys toes are turning blackish purple almost, the leg hasnt healed, hgis poops are so watery, i originally thought he was spilling water, the carrier would be SOAKED, but i found out it is the POOPS making it this wet. He is bone thin, the keel is very protruded. I gave first dose of working medicine a few days ago. What if the vet DOES want to PTS? I mean, he is supposed be be reaslly good about stuff like that, does really try first, but if he does, what should i do?
Should i tell the vet about the meds and wormer? They asked me about 10 times if it was a pet or not. Well, i guess i have to mention the meds really, 
I'll let you know ASAP what they say. Wont be back until late though, i have a 4pm appointment down here for my cats, and have to take the hour drive out near the prison for the vet for the pigeon. I hope he ends up being a good vet, Massachusetts is in dire need of a good vet for wildlife, and then Karen would have a good vet to take her feathered family to!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What medications and how much?

It sounds like the toes are going to dry up and fall off eventually. Did you look at those pictures that I linked up in post #20?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Best of luck at the vets. 

Reti


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

hey--if the vet is for wildlife, then there's no reason to hide anything, right? why not tell about meds etc? augmentin can cause diarrhea for people, so maybe for birds as well...when did the diarrhea start? what med did you start a few days ago?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, the diarrhea actually started BEFORE the meds. I think it might be because he stopped eating, still isnt eating, i have to tube feed. He might be in pain, or hates the splint so much.
So, some good news from vet, leg doesnt need to be cut, at least not yet. He basically said it isnt broken, there is a torn or broken ligature in there, which holds the bones in place and that is why the bones are bending at that spot, right at the joint. He does have an infection, not gangrene, but does have an infection. He gave him, guess what, baytril, a shot of it right then and there, gave me baytril to take home, and splinted it. Pidgey, the page of illistrations you showed me of splints, it was almost exactly like one of those, maybe exactly. He didnt splint it like i had it splinted though, because i was thinking it was BROKEN in that spot, and braced it like so. Darn, Pidgey, i cant find that pic of the braces you sent me, did you just send it or post it?
He basically used a wooden q-tip, but first took two pieces of some kind of tape, put one on one side of leg, one on the other, so the edges stuck together, then put the wooden q-tip right next to leg, taped it there. The leg is stretched perfectly straight. 
He MIGHT still lose toes, and the foot MIGHT go with it, because of where the actual infection started from. The toes are looking quite black and "dry"
This vet was very nice, seemed very knowledgeable, says he sees a lot of racing pigeons, and a lot of wildlife, and they actually have a fund to see wildlife, so payment is OPTIONAL! The lady said i didnt have to give ANYTHING if i didnt want to, but i gave a few bucks anyhow, just cause i was sooooo happy to find a vet that would first see me, a wild pigeon, and not bring out the gas chamber as an only option!  
He did say that all wild animals, EVEN pigeons, are legally not supposed to be held by people without a license to hold them, but i think in some cases he might just look the other way. Especially if he really thinks you mean well, and it is a pigeon, a deer, or hawk, would be a different story. Actually, another rehabber WAY out western MA, told me the wildlife place i took the goose was investigated for animal cruelty and abuse a while ago.  I've got to get the rest of the story, but i was really surprised at that one.

Wish my little guy well, picture 8 toes, not 6!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that the prognosis is good and delighted that you have found somewhere affordable to take your rescues. The other good thing is that you will be able to build up a good relationship with this vet and expand your knowledge through him.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I am so glad you've found an acceptable contact, Moxie. 
I wish you the best of luck with this little guy.  

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, I can't begin to tell you how happy I am that you have finally found a vet to see and one you trust. The fact that he treats wildlife from donations is a real plus. I know all of us do everything we can to help pigeons in need but I have always felt more comfortable knowing I have a great vet who will help me any time.

That's great news about his leg not having gangrene. The Baytril should knock the infection out pretty quickly. How long are you to keep him on it?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

WHOO-WHO...I'm so happy you've found a good vet!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

I know, i am sooo psyched! He wants to keep him on it for 14 days, then call him. I didnt want to lead on that i knew anything about pigeons, had helped them before, etc, because he just seemed like he would frown on it. Plus, the ex-rehabber that recommended him to me, wow, i gave her a bird a long time ago, and when i told her about PT she about ripped me a new one for even READING the site! Its crazy, because she DOESNT do rehabbing anymore, but knows EXACTLY how there is NO help anywhere for pigeons, and knwoing that, would still get crazy if you tried to treat it yourself. I do see her point, but i think most everyone on here is pretty good knowing who is good or better at what, and doesnt tell you what to do if they dont honestly believe it will help. 
I'm just afriad if i bring him TOO many pigeons he might turn me away, i got the feeling most people just brought him one wild animal and never came back again, it wasnt really a continuing thing like it is with most of us! Thats partly why i gave some money too, so he would feel less apt to turn me away if i did, say, find two pigeons in one week that needed urgent care. It is just nice to know there is a vet there if i need it.
Oh, i found out, that wildlife place, i guess a volunteer came forward and said they would take peoples donations for the animals they turned over, and take some of them to the backdoor and let them go, and there was a goose there that was starving, no one had fed it. The vet was making a HUGE salary too. I'm trying to find out more, it was a while ago, i hope it changed, because thats where i took MY goose to, so my heart skipped when i heard that!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

xxmoxiexx said:


> I know, i am sooo psyched! He wants to keep him on it for 14 days, then call him. I didnt want to lead on that i knew anything about pigeons, had helped them before, etc, because he just seemed like he would frown on it. Plus, the ex-rehabber that recommended him to me, wow, i gave her a bird a long time ago, and when i told her about PT she about ripped me a new one for even READING the site! Its crazy, because she DOESNT do rehabbing anymore, but knows EXACTLY how there is NO help anywhere for pigeons, and knwoing that, would still get crazy if you tried to treat it yourself. I do see her point, but i think most everyone on here is pretty good knowing who is good or better at what, and doesnt tell you what to do if they dont honestly believe it will help.
> I'm just afriad if i bring him TOO many pigeons he might turn me away, i got the feeling most people just brought him one wild animal and never came back again, it wasnt really a continuing thing like it is with most of us! Thats partly why i gave some money too, so he would feel less apt to turn me away if i did, say, find two pigeons in one week that needed urgent care. It is just nice to know there is a vet there if i need it.
> Oh, i found out, that wildlife place, i guess a volunteer came forward and said they would take peoples donations for the animals they turned over, and take some of them to the backdoor and let them go, and there was a goose there that was starving, no one had fed it. The vet was making a HUGE salary too. I'm trying to find out more, it was a while ago, i hope it changed, because thats where i took MY goose to, so my heart skipped when i heard that!


Remember that not everything you hear is true. Stories can change greatly one person to the next. I hope it's not true too.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, that brace lasted about a day! It was all falling apart yesterday, so i had to take it off and re-do it, way more reinforced. He is definatelt losing the toes, i think with the torn ligament, there was infection but also blood loss somehow. it is turning black at ankle too, his back toe, and one front toe isnt turning black, but i am afraid half of ankle will fall off and wont be abough flesh left to support the back toe and front toe. The ankle looks like it is going to be, like, almost half of the ankle is going, in which case i think there wont be enough flesh left to support his weight on two toes and a tiny ankle.
Also, when the brace fell off, he was standing on his leg again, but it was turned at a very odd inward angle. look at the pics, they are the last 4 pics. 

http://public.fotki.com/xxscribblerxx/pigeons/page2.html

In one of them, he's kind of lookin at his leg saying, "HOW the heck did that happen? Not supposed to look like that!?! How am i gonna STRUT now!"  
Poor guy though, he is quite a good patient, i think he likes being hospitalized! Maybe he is a munchausen patient!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's about what I've been expecting to happen since you first posted the pictures of the new development. It was inevitable from that point. For him to get pigeon-toed on that one foot is odd, though.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> when i told her about PT she about ripped me a new one for even READING the site! Its crazy, because she DOESNT do rehabbing anymore, but knows EXACTLY how there is NO help anywhere for pigeons, and knwoing that, would still get crazy if you tried to treat it yourself. I do see her point, but i think most everyone on here is pretty good knowing who is good or better at what, and doesnt tell you what to do if they dont honestly believe it will help.


Many of us work closely with our vets and they trust us enough to refer sick pigeons to us. 

When I took my first rescue to a vet and mentioned the Internet she warned me about using it for information, giving the impression that everyone that wrote stuff on the Internet intended only to deceive...and where information about pigeons is concerned I have come across a large number of these on the internet, most of them exterminators or people that believe what they have written. But it is true that you have to weigh up the advice that you are given and I have been really impressed by new members who have done this, made their own minds up about what course to follow and explained their reasoning which has always been sound. 

And then, for cases where there is doubt, there are well respected vets that are prepared to give online advice and share their expertise, which is invaluable as even as a group we will not have hands on experience of every condition affecting pigeons.

Cynthia


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