# Injured (?) baby, need advice



## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Hello! 
New here and no previous experience with pidgeons. Children (not mine) 2 days ago did found a baby on the ground who was attacked by crows (he has some minor injuries but nothing really big). 









As little rescuers had no idea (6 and 7 yo) they took baby into the shed with some wheat but no water. After 24 hours the baby was passed to me, already quite weak. 
Water first, then some outmeal porridge. (Possibility to feed peas discovered only today). 

This morning baby was feeling much perkier but I notice that he is dragging the right feet behind. It's not broken, and seems functioning while the grip is not so tight as left feet. Tried to make a video so you can see what I'm talking about.
http://youtu.be/jXqSVALwyfs

I also have many questions. 

How to clean his feathers? with water? Or just leave them dirty right now? 

Feeding: In a previous baby thread the reccomended amount was 25 peas per meal, but how many meals per day? (tToday we fed him 5 times, he must be fed, he does not eat by himself yet) Can you give me, please, some ideas about amount of food he must have daily?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

He is very sweet. IMO I think he may be sick, do you have a resource for getting medictions for birds..like a broad spectrum antiobiotic..or even an avian vet?

as far as feeding goes the defrosted peas and corn can be given till the crop is full and then feed again when it empties. a picture of his dropping may be of some help.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

avian vet I will try to find tomorrow but not a big chance. Antibiotics will be easy if there is a need, but so far he looks perky, only starving as I'm not sure how much and exactly what to feed him. How old he might be , according to video and picture?
This is his latest poo tonight. 










his wings are OK, both spreads out nicely and even. he has minor cut on his back, but not big, 

The leg is what worries me right now. See in this picture - both legs needed to be even, but his right leg is behind in every position, even when freely hanging like this. 








At the same time it does not look broken and all seems functioning. Maybe it's so called slay leg? But it is evenly positioned, not out, only way behind the left leg. 

Other than that he looks quite perky for me


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

IMO, I think he needs meds, at least a broad spectrum antibiotic..he does not look perkey to me and the green droppings are off.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Droppings must be white only?
If I will not find avian vet, can somebody here reccomend preffered antibiotics/dosage?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No, they shouldn't be white only. Maybe brown or brownish green, with white on top.
He probably could use a broad spectrum antibiotic.
As far as feeding, feed about 30 to 40 peas, maybe 3 times a day. You can feel his crop, a little pouch on his chest, fill up as you feed him. Fill it so it feels like a soft pillow, but not hard. Then wait for it to empty and go down flat before feeding him again. May 6 hours I think. But check the crop before feeding again. You don't want to add new food to the old food in his crop, as this will cause problems.
Looks like his leg has been injured. Hope nothing is broken.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

From the movements of this bird, he is def ill, or the leg is injured, or perhaps suffering temp paralysis due to the crow attack, or a combination thereof.
The jerky shuffeling is because he does not have full power of the leg.
His face & eyes also give the impression that he is not right.
You say he has had water & some food, did he eat & drink himself, or did you administer them, and if so how ?
Looking at the pic & vid of him I think he is also dehydrated.
Please offer him some tepid water with a pinch of salt, pinch of sugar & a pinch of bicarbonate of soda mixed in. Gently guide & dip his beak into this
& he should eventually drink. If not, dribble a few drops onto the side of his beak.
Dont attempt to force water into his mouth as he could aspirate & die.
Next, he needs to be kept on a heat pad covered with a towel & set to low.
Birds are not good at handling infection and need all the help they can get.
Most of his energy will be used keeping him warm, leaving little to fight any infection or injury he may have.
If you do not have a heatpad, a hot water bottle covered with a towel will do, but this must be changed regularly to keep a good heat.
I also agree with spirit, that he needs meds, birds hide problems they have to avoid predation. Often by the time they show symptoms it can be too late.
Im not that up on meds, but hopefully someone will chime in with what may be appropriate.
But in the first instance, hydration & heat will help.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Antibiotics: either Baytril (also called Cipro, Ciproflaxin, Enroflaxin) or Amoxycillin (Clavamox, Augmentin)....those are the top 2 choices. After that...a bird med called Divet.

If still no luck, then trimeth sulpha, ampicillin, penicillin, Ceclor, Cephalexin....any will do.

Please do not be casual about medicating. They need to be started immediately. Although your Pigeon friend may look like he is rebounding OK, ANY injury to the bird (especially from being attacked) can lead to a bacterial infection very quickly. 
Unlike mammals, birds cannot "fight off" infection...their circulatory systems are too small and finite. They will succumb to infection in a matter of 2-3 days.

You have done well so far with the feeding and supportive care. Now, before we worry about the leg, you gotta get your friend started on an antibiotic. When you have one, please tell us which and we can tell you the dosage.

Thanks...and thanks to your kids...for caring ! The world needs more kindhearted people like all of you !


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Thank you all! 
Ciproflaxin and Amoxycillin can't be a big problem, but right now I only have Cefalexin (Cefalexinum) 500 mg capsules. Can I use this one? It's midnight here, so no chances to get something different another 8 hours at least. 

If Cefalexin is ok, what dosage, and which way - in water, with drop of food? 

The baby shows interest to the food but does not pick anything from ground. So I do feed him by hand, opening peak. He is very cooperative so I suspect he will start eating by himself soon. 

Drinking is complicated as I did not wanted to take risks and drown his lungs. I did put the water bowl right under his peak and then gently push down head, until tip of the peak is in. He seems drinking some but I have no idea how much he can or how much he must drink per day - he had wet porridge today. Starting tomorrow on frozen peas. 

He definitely was dehydrated yesterday as he spent 24 hours without any water, but today I think he got quite a lot, + wet porridge, so water problem might be sorted out, at least droppings were really wet.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Cephalexin will work OK, it is effective against aerobes and anaerobes....not your typical birdie med, but it has some crossover with Cipro and Amoxy....

Approx 15mg/day divided into 2 doses....for a 300g Pigeon. Can you weigh the Pigeon, in grams ?

So...if the pills are 250 mg, then it's 1/13th of a pill....but divided into 2 dosages. Just pop the pill piece into his/her mouth and close the beak....he should swallow.

If that is too difficult, you can crush it up into a fine powder and mix with 5ml of water.

This will give you a 50mg/ml suspension. Then using an eyedropper (measure the volume of the eyedropper) or a 1cc plastic oral syringe, give .15cc twice a day, spaced 8 hours apart minimum. Give for 7 days.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Thank you, Jaye! Ouch, I hate math! I have 500 mg capsules so I will need dillute for such dosages - by dividing powder it will be impossible to make a precise dosage. 

So the right dosage is 15 mg per day for 300 gr pigeon, which is 5 mg per 100 gr of a pigeon weight. Plus daily dosage must be divided in half. Ouch! 

Seems like if I dillute the 500 mg capsule in 200 gr of water, it will be the right solution to start with. 5 mg = 2 mg of solution, so 1 mg of solution 2x per day.

Thank you! This morning baby is even bouncier, so I will try to find an avian vet.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

He is very young, a fledgling just out of the nest, or maybe he fell out. His ceres (nostrils) haven't even started to turn white, so he couldn't be more than a month old. Also, he can't eat on his own yet. Many baby pigeons learn how to fly before they learn how to eat, usually they fly around a little but return to their parents who still feed them, but this one got lost somehow.

Try to look under his wings, if all the white feathers there are fully grown, then he should be ready to be weaned. (Those feathers under the wings are white in all pigeons, even those with different colors in other feathers)

The droppings might look like this just because he didn't eat anything, or ate very little, for a few days. 

But he was attacked and even a small scratch can be fatal if not treated with antibiotics, so that should be your first concern. and feeding him of course. He could easily die from an infection or starvation, while the leg problem, even if serious, is not life threatening right now.

It's true, a cat attack would be more dangerous as cats saliva has a bacteria that's deadly to birds and you said it wasn't cats that attacked him... but better to be safe than sorry.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

mist said:


> Thank you, Jaye! Ouch, I hate math! I have 500 mg capsules so I will need dillute for such dosages - by dividing powder it will be impossible to make a precise dosage.
> 
> So the right dosage is 15 mg per day for 300 gr pigeon, which is 5 mg per 100 gr of a pigeon weight. Plus daily dosage must be divided in half. Ouch!
> 
> ...


Now that it's morning here (I think we live in the same time zone) I think you'd better get some other antibiotic, and ask for the smallest dosage per tablet that they got.

I also sent you a private message.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes, we are in the same time zone, jondove. About white feathers under the wings - well, it's hard because he is completely white all over (except where he is dirty) but later today I will try to take a picture - maybe it will help. 
My guess also was 20 -30 days old. Baby is flapping but can't fly at all yet. 

Is there any hope that he will start eating by himself in next 2 weeks? 

Thank You for suggestion in PM, will check it out today.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

mist said:


> Is there any hope that he will start eating by himself in next 2 weeks?


Yes, definitely. If he was very well fed and healthy I would say let him get a little hungry and he should start eating by himself, but right now it's not the time for such experiments!


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Thank you! It's not I need it right now, but after 10-12 days I must relocate him as I'm going for a longer trip and the person who will take over is working all day, so only 2 meals per day would be available then if he still needs to be hand fed then. Right now he has me all day long so 4 meals are not a problem. 
Most likely, avian vet will be available only tomorrow.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

By then, hopefully he'll feel better and will be well fed. So even if he doesn't start to eat on his own by then, 2 meals a day will be ok. And during the day, leaving him some grains/seeds, so he could start pecking at them himself.

You could start putting some seeds in front of him right now and peck at them with your finger to get him interested, while continuing to hand feed. I've had some baby pigeons that started to peck the peas and corn from my hand when I was hand feeding them.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes, thank you, that I found here on forum about tricks with offering some food to try. He is showing some interest but I presume the balance problems hold him back from pecking. 

He ate 50 mg slurry food this morning and is happily brushing his feathers now in the sunny spot of his cage. Warm and full - must feel good.

His droppings this morning









And his wing - maybe it will help work out his age more precise. But as all feathers are white...


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Droppings are far from perfect but it depends what he was eating, if there was a lot of water in the food, then you should expect more watery droppings. Normally pigeons eat dry seeds and drink just a little water.

Keep on feeding him and we'll see how the droppings are later. Some probiotic wouldn't hurt either, especially if he is on antibiotics.

Later, when he'll start eating dry grains, he'll need grit too.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

I have bird's grit by Trixie (coral grit, shells, seaweed). Then I have bird food mix for parrots (mid size), red millet and buckwhweat (flakes or groats). And bags of frozen green peas, of course. What to start with? 
I presume, parrot food is off until he eats by himself, but fow about millet and buckwheat?


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

The more diverse food he gets the better. I sometimes make a thick porridge into which I add some parrot food, then make it into small balls that can be popped into the baby's beak. There's a video on YouTube showing something like that, if I find it I'll post it here.

On that other forum, I think they recommend boiling millet and buckwheat groats, not sure why. Maybe someone else could comment on that.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Here's the video. They are using bread there as part of the mix, which may not be the best food for birds, but other than that I liked the idea.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Thank you! Video is great. Actually I was making very similar ones to feed, only mine are not so dry. As he was dehydrated and I was afraid of forcing him drink, I made more watery slurr to feed (which is a mess! ) Actually - how much water such a baby must get per day until he will be able to drink by himself? 

Tomorrow avian vet will be available so I do hope I will stop messing around here with my stupid questions. 

I had been fostering before, but bigger birds like geese and swans - they are so much easier! This one is a real challenge for me as I really do know nothing about them. Thank you so much for patience with me!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I like the video. Thanks for sharing it. I believe she used to bread to help hold everything together. I would have made it into balls the size of peas, rather than long as she did, but a good video. Thanks.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

mist said:


> Thank you, Jaye! Ouch, I hate math! I have 500 mg capsules so I will need dillute for such dosages - by dividing powder it will be impossible to make a precise dosage.
> 
> So the right dosage is 15 mg per day for 300 gr pigeon, which is 5 mg per 100 gr of a pigeon weight. Plus daily dosage must be divided in half. Ouch!
> 
> ...


Dilute one pill in 10ml or water, then you end up with a 50mg/ml suspension.

So then give about .2ml or .2cc (same thing) twice a day, 8 hours minimum apart.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Jaye, thank you! That sounds so much better - now you see why I hate math! 

Anyway, the baby has made through another night which is great. Today he will get avian vet to look at him. 

Yesterday I spent hours reading rescue pigeon stories here, and many times cat/dog saliva as poison for birds was mentioned. Is there any links for me to read on this subject? 
Never knew such thing. Is this right for all birds? 

I once had a baby crow which even "adopted" my gray cat as a parent, and their relationship lasted 5 years. On second day crow learned to meow to get "parent's" attention for food, and later it was funny to see cat laying in sun on a porch while crow was brushing his "feathers". Well, cat also did "clean" up the new baby daily so most of the time crow was wet. . It even went further and each night crow was opening her cage door to let the cat inside and they slept together. The cat was sleeping under the bird... The rest you can imagine  
Cat did that for 5 years, and nothing bad happened to the crow. 
Similar friendship had geese with our large dog, and that dog was leaving saliva everywhere. 
So after reading things here I started to think - maybe this poison thing works only for some birds?


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

His first dropping this morning, no green at all - does this looks better? It still isnt really firm, waterish - do I need feed him more dry food?


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, it looks better, it means the green was just bile coming out, when he hadn't eaten anything in a while.

An adult pigeon may drink 50 ml of water per day, when eating dry grains. A baby will drink less of course. If you give him moist food, he probably doesn't need any extra water.

Normally, pigeon droppings don't have a watery part, unlike a crow's. If it does, there could be two explanations. Either he simply got too much water with his food, or he has some infection, maybe a kidney problem and losing too much water.

Just in case, you should give him some water in a small crock. He should be able to drink by now, even if he can't stand properly on his feet. They learn how to drink before they learn how to eat. Dip his beak gently into the water to let him know what it is, he may start to drink right away, but if he is shy or simply not thirsty, he may drink later, when you are not around.

Cat saliva contais a bacteria called Pasteurella, which is harmless to mammals, but deadly to birds. If it gets directly into the bloodstream, like after a cat byte, the danger is very real.
By the way, human saliva too has some bad bacteria, for a pigeon.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Thank God, tummy is starting work right, at least something is going into right direction. Water in the droppings most likely is my fault as I do make porridge to feed him instead of dry food. Then at least I know that he will not suffer of dehydration if he does not drink right. I try to show his beak in water but he is not showing much interest or maybe he has special drinking technicue like sucking which I can't notice. 
OK, now I can hope that he is starting to settle in. In 2 hours the avian vet will be here about his leg. Currently he just wiggle around, he can not stand up at all, and for me seems that's going worse, not improving at all. The weak legs absolutely normal to me - the color of the skin is the same and so on. If it's torn tendons so then what? I do not feel very optimistic, wigling around on tummy - not an excelent life planfor a pigeon, isn't it? Hope vet will be able to say something encouraging about his possible recovery.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

If you put your finger under his foot while holding him, does he try to grip, or even curl his toes slightly ?
Sometimes when the legs are paralysed there is no actual damage to the legs, but it is caused by damage or inflamation of the nerves.
Ive had 2 rescues where the birds were like this, No power to the legs at all, but both regained full use although it did take some time and both legs did not get better together (2or 3 days in one case, more than a week in the other.)


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Avian vet just left - by him, we have a good chance to recover. The leg is semi disjointed but nothing permanent. Now we have vitamins (A, D3 and E) and oitment (Echinacea purpurea, Chamomilla, Calendula, Arnica, ASD, Belladonna, Hypericum Hepar sulfuris) for the leg. Vet said that within 10 - 12 days he must be back on both legs. 

@Quazar - yes, he can grip, but the grip is a bit weaker than the left leg. I was quite sure that nothing has broken but suspected tendon damage. Had once a swan with such damage and looked very similar. That swan we needed to put down as there were no chances to full recovery, poor sod was not able to keep balance even swimming. 

But now we have a hope! Yay! That's great as he is so sweet.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Did the vet strap up the leg ?
If it is "disjointed" the bird really needs to be kept immobile to allow it a chance to rest in the correct position, as further movement will not let it settle in the correct position.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Great news!



Quazar said:


> Did the vet strap up the leg ?
> If it is "disjointed" the bird really needs to be kept immobile to allow it a chance to rest in the correct position, as further movement will not let it settle in the correct position.


That's a good point. I hope the vet did the right thing...



mist said:


> I try to show his beak in water but he is not showing much interest or maybe he has special drinking technicue like sucking which I can't notice.


Pigeons do drink by sucking water, unlike other birds. But you would still notice when he is sucking.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

@Quazar - no, he didn't and explained me why. As he was highly reccomended by all parrot people here, I will give him my trust. 
Instead of cast he recomended to make a little narrow nest to keep him stright when in cage resting. Let's see if his method will work. 

Vet also assesed baby's overall c ondition and that's good by him. He was very positive about his chances to full recovery.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Baby is feeling a bit better - he has started to tidy himself up so gradually, gradually... 


















What would be the best food to fill him up? According to his collarbone, he is still quite thin.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, peas contain much protein, sunflower seeds contain much fat, but too much of anything isn't that good. You could give him a little more peas and a few sunflower seeds, but not too many. Also, if you mix a little less water with the food, you'll end up with more actual nutrients.

You mean the *breastbone*?


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

yeah, sorry, of course breastbone  silly me!
20 peas daily is ok?

Droppings right now 









Actually he has not much droppings per day, but when he has, they are huge, I mean huge, nearly as big as cat has. Is it because he is not moving much right now, or it is something indicating about trouble?


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

20 peas actually is quite little, even considering you give him other food too. Some people will give 40-50 peas at one feeding, when feeding only peas.

Usual pigeon mixes contain up to 20-25% peas. The overall protein content in most mixes is 12-13%, while peas have 24% protein.

But for a short while, like I said, a pigeon can be fed only peas.

...

About the droppings, I really don't know. Pigeons usually have small droppings and rather often. I thought the only time when they hold it in for a while and then have such huge droppings is when they are sitting on eggs...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

wow, what big diff in the droppings, he looks allot better too.  if he is not moving around allot he will hold the droppings..sort of like hen does when she is on eggs.. so I would take him off his rest spot through the day for him to move a bit and go potty.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm so glad that you also can see some improvement. Otherwise I thought that I'm just feeding my hopes. 

I do take him out and hold him so he can exercise his wings without straining leg several times per day, and then I noticed this huge dropping landing on my lap  

Peas I'm feeding him for night, 50/50 with other seeds. I try to keep diversity - for example, vet suggested to pick up the buds from birches - here they will open soon so they are good natural source of vitamins right now. So he gets mixed grain porridge with fresh buds in the morning along with some seeds and a bit of grit. 

Then before lunch he gets probiotics - a pinch of curd. And peas for the dinner. He is not crying before these 4 meals now so I presume he is full and happy.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

mist said:


> I'm so glad that you also can see some improvement. Otherwise I thought that I'm just feeding my hopes.
> 
> I do take him out and hold him so he can exercise his wings without straining leg several times per day, and then I noticed this huge dropping landing on my lap
> 
> ...


If the curd is dairy I would not feed that...birds do not digest dairy very well. but then again it probably is good protein and enzymes in it I would imagine.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

Curd is a natural probitic. As he was getting antibiotics, probiotic was the must. I do not give much, about the size of two peas daily. And only the fresh curd, from goat milk , not processed, not from cow milk. According to the droppings, I think it works. 

It's also some calcium source, but due to the lack of the enzyme necessary to digest the lactose in dairy products in general, not the best one. I'm not an expert, I only do what vet explained, and curd is one thing. Our avian vet is quite holistic, me too


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

mist said:


> Curd is a natural probitic. As he was getting antibiotics, probiotic was the must. I do not give much, about the size of two peas daily. And only the fresh curd, from goat milk , not processed, not from cow milk. According to the droppings, I think it works.
> 
> It's also some calcium source, but due to the lack of the enzyme necessary to digest the lactose in dairy products in general, not the best one. I'm not an expert, I only do what vet explained, and curd is one thing. Our avian vet is quite holistic, me too


 you are right as goat's milk is better digested. and you are not giving much. allot of cow dairy would/could give diarrhea. 

this goat curd sounds good for people too.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> this goat curd sounds good for people too.


Of course. I think this is quite good read about it, especially this page. This is US page, also the same points.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

First of all, youghurt, any yoghurt, contains less lactose than unprocessed milk. I also read somewhere that probiotics in live yoghurt actually help digest the lactose.



> Yogurt containing live active bacteria is believed to improve lactose digestion for the same reason that probiotics are thought to work.
> 
> When yogurt is consumed, bile acids disrupt the cell wall of the bacteria in yogurt. This releases the enzyme beta-galactosidase (related to lactase) into the intestines, where it can enhance lactose digestion.
> 
> ...


( http://altmedicine.about.com/od/healthconditionsdisease/a/lactose_intoler.htm )

That's about people with lactose intolerance, but it should be all the more true about pigeons. Pigeons don't actually have lactose intolerance, they just can't digest lactose.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jondove said:


> First of all, youghurt, any yoghurt, contains less lactose than unprocessed milk. I also read somewhere that probiotics in live yoghurt actually help digest the lactose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*

That's what lactose intolerance is. It means you can't digest lactose.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

I know that fresh milk for me means serious diarrhea while all cultured products are ok. Even as a baby I was put on cultured products (there were no special mixes then). So I can feel the problem for birds. 

I named little one Kwilp P. Montgomery and hope he/she will grow up to the name


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> That's what lactose intolerance is. It means you can't digest lactose.


I meant that, from what I've heard, people with lactose intolerance can have much more severe symptoms than pigeons, after drinking milk.


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## mist (Apr 11, 2012)

I have another question- is rye OK for pigeons? I have flake mix, which is 50% rye, 30% oats, then wheat and barley, each 10%. I would like to use this mix for one meal per day, with seeds in (he is still not eating by himself) and then at morning and night only peas.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

mist said:


> I have another question- is rye OK for pigeons? I have flake mix, which is 50% rye, 30% oats, then wheat and barley, each 10%. I would like to use this mix for one meal per day, with seeds in (he is still not eating by himself) and then at morning and night only peas.


No, rye is not actually recommended for pigeons. If it was 10% rye, maybe, but 50% seems too much.



> ...some fanciers have suffered nasty experiences, probably as a result of feeding their birds too much rye. The birds concerned were mainly young pigeons whose digestion was upset and who had thick blood. Proportions of rye in the mixture in excess of 10 per cent caused red throats and blue flesh.
> 
> Apart from the fact that only a modest amount of research has been done into specific pigeon foods, the results of any research take some time to make themselves felt in everyday practice. So long as the relationship between the symptoms just described and the effect on them of rye has not been clearly demonstrated or disproved, it is advisable to be cautious. There are, in any event, enough other products at the fancier's disposal. Wheat, for example, can almost take the place of rye.



http://www.sahpa.asn.au/feedbreed/food.htm


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