# Genetics question



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Do you think its possible some mutations of Columba livia came from other dove and pigeon species? Could the mutations on the ringneck/barbary dove have come from the Columba livia?

It may not have been done yet but I belive its possable.

I found this article in a pigeon newsletter.

"crossing male: Columba guinea with domestic pigeons. Most of the hybrids died in 10 days after hatching, but one female survived and has been able to raise backcross progeny with a Nun cock. Back crossing to a Columba guinea cock gave only infertile eggs."

We all know crossing doves and other pigeons with columba livia is possible and some (a small percentage) are still fertile.

Columbia gunea looks like it has Ts


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I sadly do not get the newsletter, but have been saying for a long time that _C. livia_ and _C. guinea_ produce fertile offspring.

My grandfather had such hybrids, and I have spoken to other people who have done the same crossing. I am sure someone would have told me of the hybrids dying when young. I have heard that someone here in SA has been transferring mutants from domestic birds into his _C. guinea_ stock, though I have not seen them. He reportedly has been able to move indigo and a some other genes. Maybe I should try to meet him at some point. I've raised a few C. guinea myself, but have never attempted the matings myself.

On your first statement, there is general consensus that the mutations we know today in the domestic pigeon are not from hybridization. The progeny of barbary doves and pigeons are infertile, and it is very unlikely that the mutations of the barbary dove come from C. livia hybrids.

C. guiea does not actually look like it has TS, it rather has the T part of T-pattern white instead of blue. Its color actually reminds me more of dirty indigo than anything else.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Interesting. Thanks Rudolph. Maybe not toy stencil but looks a bit like modena bronze, gimple bronze, some kind of bronze or like you say dirty indigo and the red eye cere looks like that of a magpie.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

You should see them in real life... The patches of skin on their eyes is much more impressive than the magpie. It looks to me like a mask that Zorro would wear... They also have a very distinctive coo, but they are almost a pest here in South Africa. In some towns you have a pair on every roof, and they love breeding on people's pateos, making a real mess.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes it is very possible our domestic birds are not 100% columba livia. In fact a lot of people speculate other species were mixed in. There are quite a few hybrid crosses that result in fertile birds. The Stock Dove is one I'd suspect may have been crossed in. You see those faded bars in some breeds. There are also multiple subspecies of columba livia depending on where you live.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I tried to cross a hen australian crested pigon (Bronzewing) with an cock arcangle but they never paired up properly. I think if I used a hen C. livia and a cock Bronzewing it may have been possible. The crest would look great on C. livia.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

another pic of bronzewings


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Making hybrids takes time and patience. As far as I know Australian Crested mixed with our pigeons does not work. As in they won't make babies. Bronzewings are totally different looking birds by the way.


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)




----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

What breed is that henk?


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Franconian velvet shield pigeon?

http://fancy-pets-loft.blogspot.nl/2012_05_05_archive.html


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Making hybrids takes time and patience. As far as I know Australian Crested mixed with our pigeons does not work. As in they won't make babies. Bronzewings are totally different looking birds by the way.


I just figured out what you meant "bronzewings are totally different" - yes there are a few species of bronzewing, the ones I had were crested bronzewings or australian crested not common bronzewings.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I will have another go at the mating one day. I would love to put that crest on C. livia a frillback even


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

If you want to breed hybrids, it is usually easier to stay in the same genus. 

C. livia x C, gunea would be easier to breed than C. livia x Streptopelia roseogrisea for example...

I assume breeding Ocyphaps lophotes (crested pigeon) to C. Livia would be similarly problematic, since they are phylogenetically even further from the Columba genus than is Streptopelia.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

We don't have c. gunia in NZ or stock doves. We have barbary, diamond, zebra, cape, crested australian, NZ wood pigeon and thats about it. I know you cant breed a duck to a chicken but the crested pigeon is very similar to that of a C. livia in the way it acts and its diet. It may be impossible but one day I will give it another try.

Off the subject but have you guys heard of Kakarikis?


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> If you want to breed hybrids, it is usually easier to stay in the same genus.
> 
> C. livia x C, gunea would be easier to breed than C. livia x Streptopelia roseogrisea for example...
> 
> I assume breeding Ocyphaps lophotes (crested pigeon) to C. Livia would be similarly problematic, since they are phylogenetically even further from the Columba genus than is Streptopelia.


Yes, but the genus is often assigned based on non relevant similarities, what we think that is related. The real genus borders are probably different. In poultry you can make hybrids across the entire family.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Yes, but the genus is often assigned based on non relevant similarities, what we think that is related. The real genus borders are probably different. In poultry you can make hybrids across the entire family.


The last phylogenetic report I saw put Colomba and Streptopelia close together, with the remaining pigeons/doves more distant. It was a while ago though, but I think it was one of the precursors of Streptopelia being broken into 2 different genusses. Streptopelia and Stigmatopelia. I also know that recently Stigmatopelia has recently been renamed Spilopelia. I agree with your statements, and I do not put faith in the name of the genus alone when there is more information on the genetic interrelations of the species. 

When you say that in poultry you can make crosses across the entire family, what do you mean? Do you mean that all members of the Phasianidae can be interbred? I have to disagree, because there are so many members of the family on so many continents (the clade Phasianinae has more than 150 members), it is impossible that every combination has been attempted. I do agree that most of the common and domesticated pheasants do interbreed. Though many of the known hybrids have been accomplished by artificial insemination.

I think it is fair to day that it impossible for a lay person like me to predict which species can hybridize. Most of us just do not have the knowledge of the intricacies of genetics required. A few people (like you Henk) do have the academic background. So I will agree to listen to more schooled minds than mine.


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Not all, but a lot:
http://www.bird-hybrids.com/engine....e&nomenclature=ALL&searchby=family&family=ALL


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

That is a great website Henk... Just wish I understood French a little better. The English version does not seem to work!


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

It did work properly yesterday, english


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It does again today too!

It states that the C. guinea x C. livia hybrid occurs naturally sometimes. I never knew that!


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

That could be where check first came from. Who knows...


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

thepigeonkey said:


> That could be where check first came from. Who knows...


I doubt it, since C guinea is only found in sub-saharan Africa, while check is of European or middle eastern origin. But you are right, no-one really knows for sure...


----------



## Golubar (Sep 29, 2012)

I also agree that other species and supspecies of Columba livia were involved in the creation of the domestic pigeon. But you forgot the two species most similar to Columba livia - Columba leuconota and Columba rupestris. I found in a one book about the fact that Columba leuconota successfully mated with domestic pigeons and that the offspring were fertile. I think that these two species are certainly involved in the creation of the domestic pigeon. Columba leuconota: http://orientalbirdimages.org/birdi...rd_ID=774&Bird_Image_ID=42414&Bird_Family_ID= Columba rupestris: http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=694&Bird_Image_ID=43495&Bird_Family_ID=&p=16


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Interesting, Columba leuconota looks gazzi


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It does, doesn't it ;-)


----------

