# Hillfamilyloft's Test Birds!



## ace in the hole

Hi everyone,

Randy Hill of Hillfamilyloft has helped me get started back into pigeon racing this year with breeding stock and young birds for this years team. Between the young I raised from his stock and the young Randy sent me last month I will be starting training with 28 birds out of Randy's stock. Most of these birds are club and combine auction birds.

This years team is starting at 76 young birds. That puts Randy's stock at just over 1/3 of my team.

I will be using this thread to keep you and Randy up to date on the birds progress.

At this time 37 birds for the team have been released out ten times now with only one loss, and that was to a hawk. The rest of them incuding all of Randy's birds have been trap trained and tomorrow will get their first release five feet from the landing platform as their dinner bell is range. 

Thanks for reading this post, and I hope you will keep track of how this season unfolds for this racing team.

More to come soon,

Ace


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## ace in the hole

5 / 13 / 08

Todays training went well. 

9 - new young from my breeding loft trap trained first and were allowed to eat all they want.

30 - of mine and Randy's birds released 5ft. from landing board, all traper within 10 seconds of release! They were also allowed to eat all they wanted.

37 - released fifty yards from the loft all hit the sky, some for 1/2 hour. When the last one landed on the loft I range the dinner bell and they all traped but one. the one that did not trap ( a RCSPL form TopGunLoft ) will not eat this morning.

All birds will be fed only barley this afternoon. If the weather is good tomorrow morning the 9 young will trap train again. The 30 will move to ten feet from the landing board and the 37 will continue to be released from the same spot untill the other birds catch up and they are all grouping well and staying in the air.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Good to see all is well with the birds. Having Ace fly them is the next best thing to having a team myself. The sixteen birds that I sent out were my first sixteen out of the nest. It will be a good representation of my loft. I had a few that I hoped would be ready to send, but they were not in time for Ace. The breeders sent were also off of my best. 

I started my loft with 12 birds four years ago, all from one fancier. These birds were brothers and sisters of futurity tested birds. I have only added three birds to this mix in four years also from the same fancier. Two were the same bloodlines off of key birds and the other a bird to cross into the lines. I am still breeding from five of my original pairs. Of the 12 original, I brought in three pairs of siblings. I have established three lines of birds from these. I have crossed the lines with good results. I am breeding from around 16 pairs this year. 

Ace has birds off of two of my lines. I am looking forward to seeing how the birds perform and the ups and downs of young birds. 

Randy


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## DEEJAY7950

What's with the 5ft/10ft thing from the landing board? Is it cause they can't fly as yet on wing,? or are you just being cautious with your young birds? I ask this because most birds after they learn to trap aren't trained until they loft fly and start tripping! So are you trying some other method or just being extremely careful while training? Hard to understand the 5ft/10ft thing?


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## Guest

Im wondering about that too as with my birds they go from trap training to open loft sitting on the loft ,then to the air when they are ready which isnt very long once I open that door .


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## Lovebirds

I wouldn't do the "feet" from the loft either...........the only time I do that is just before we start road training. I will put the birds in the baskets and set them in the yard a couple of times, just to let them know that being in the basket is not something they should fear. After that, it's down the road we go....


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## ace in the hole

DEEJAY, You know I was waiting for someone to ask that and I half expected it to be you.

There is a reason for this, and no the young birds are not to young to fly. Unless I have a hawk hit before the birds are settled I should start this season with 0 losses due to fly offs. Some of the 37 young birds I have flying now were over 4 months old when they first saw the out side of the loft, and still 0 losses.

Here is how it will be for my race team.

They are trap trained to feed. I ring a cow bell every time I feed. For trap training, the birds are caught (in the dark) and placed in a shipping crate. I have set the loft up for the darkening system to were it can be darkened in a matter of seconds. This way even for the races the birds can be caught in the dark, on their perches in the middle of the day. No more catching birds! Just pick them up off from their perch.

The crate is attatched to the covered landing board, and the birds are left in the crate for a little while. After the feed is put in the loft the door to the shipping crate is opened as I ring the cow bell. This is repeated untill all birds trap within seconds of release. Now they are ready to start moving back from the loft to trap. 

The 4 ft. high X 5 ft. long front to the covered landing board is removed. the young birds are handled in the same way. Always letting them set in the crate outside for a while before releasing them. The shipping crate door is opened away from the landing board on a stand that I built. First at two feet then five feet, ten and twenty. By twenty feet some of the birds will land on the roof of the loft. Most of them will land on the board and trap. The other birds will see and hear them trapping and eating and will trap as well. I do a few releases from this distance till I know they all have it figured out.

Now it is time to put them in the air! I then move them back to 40 yards from the loft. At this point I do not feed the birds the night before for the first few releases at this distance. When they are released some of them will go into the air, some on the loft and some on the landing board. Now the bell is used a little differently. I do not ring the bell untill they have all landed, unless I see a bird or birds getting what I feel is to far out. I will then ring the bell to turn them, showing them ware home is, and as they fly over the loft I ring the bell again. I will only use the bell this way the first few times the birds are in the air and only if I feel I have to to keep them from going to far. I continue to release from this point untill they are grouping and all flying together. Then and only then are they allowed to exit the loft on their own, and only through the open trap hole.

They are expected to come out of the loft and into the air. They should be in the air or in the loft. These birds are racers and will not have open loft or be alowed to set around on the loft or on the ground. 

The one bird that sat out all day yesterday was demoted. As I darkened the loft at 3pm. I caught her off from the roof of the loft with a landing net and removed the yellow band. The yellow bands are the ones flying now. She went back and will stay with the ones trap training. If after this she will not trap with the rest of the birds she will be removed from the team.

By doing this not only will I have fewer losses due to fly offs, but I will also have fewer losses due to hawk attacks. 

Ace


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## MaryOfExeter

Wow. Sounds like you have a pretty strict and well planned out schedule there. I also put my birds in a crate once they start coming out on their own, and move release them farther and farther from the loft. My way is different though, and I do let them open loft every once in a while. It works for me but I guess everyone has their own way of doing things


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## ace in the hole

Hi Becky,

Yes, there are many ways to train a pigeon. I am a pro dog trainer and feel that has helped me in training pigeons.

This is roughly how I trained my young birds back 18 years ago when I raced. Back then the loft was set down in the pines. Once the birds were in the air they would have a hard time finding the loft. Now my loft is in the open.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

*All As Planed!!*

So far everything is going as planed.

The youngest birds are finished trap training and will be released away from the landing board tomorrow.

The second group (mostly Hillfamilyloft's birds) were released in groups of ten at twenty feet today. Only six of them went to the roof. Tomorrow they will move back another five feet to get more of them to go to the roof. They will stay at this distance untill the younger birds catch up to them. That should be about mid week, and from there they will move back and be released together with the third group. 

The third group is doing good, but still not grouping. If they don't start to group together by next weekend I will have 76 birds going in 76 different directions. That will be a sight! 

Ace


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> So far everything is going as planed.
> 
> The youngest birds are finished trap training and will be released away from the landing board tomorrow.
> 
> The second group (mostly Hillfamilyloft's birds) were released in groups of ten at twenty feet today. Only six of them went to the roof. Tomorrow they will move back another five feet to get more of them to go to the roof. They will stay at this distance untill the younger birds catch up to them. That should be about mid week, and from there they will move back and be released together with the third group.
> 
> The third group is doing good, but still not grouping. If they don't start to group together by next weekend I will have 76 birds going in 76 different directions. That will be a sight!
> 
> Ace


Hello Ace,

Has your sickness in the loft affected one group of birds more then another ? It's possible with all the various lofts contributing birds, that a strain of canker in one loft, where the bird's immunity system has kept the canker in check, has introduced a new strain that the other bird colony's were not familiar with. Then the wide array of antibiotics which were used, may have opened a doorway for a viral infection.

I don't really know, as I am not a Vet, but mixing a variety of birds from different lofts, would be much like exposing birds to race conditions. Except that the immune system on YB's had not had a chance to develop. 

Did you put the birds from various lofts into any type of quarantine, or did they simply go in together ?

One of my basic thoughts concerning One Loft races, is first of all, my birds have to be able to survive the environment in which they are exposed to, the good, the bad, and the ugly. If the families of birds which were introduced into your loft, came from generations of birds which required all types of medications in order to remain healthy, and you did not continue that practice, it's quite possible, they were not equipped genetically for your environment.

The very first, and most basic requirement. Is the birds must survive the new and strange enviroment, where they will be exposed to all new kinds of germs and conditions. Not much attention has been paid to the breeding of pigeons with a very hardy immune system. As many fanciers mask this with the use of various drugs and medications. Follow this line of thinking for a number of generations, and one can see how this particular issue in the selection process, can be over looked. All things being equal, the bird which can stay healthy, and come into form, will win the race. 

This is not what the potion merchants would have us believe, but this situation in your loft, certainly does provide a test of the bird's immunity system. However, it's also possible, that the broad use of drugs, may negate the value of the findings.


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## ace in the hole

Hi Warren,

#1 
Yes, I did have only one family of birds efected, or at least they were the first to contract the sickness. I medicated the loft before it may have spread to the other birds. This family of birds was the Hillfamilyloft birds. Randy has not introduced birds, or medicated in three years. It was something these birds had not been exposed to, or built any immunity to.


#2
Yes, they were all quarantined and medicated with a pegosan tadlet when they came in. I had no sickness in the loft untill after the birds were vaccinated for Paratyphoid. I think it stressed them and opened the door for this sickness to take hold.

Only one bird was lost to this sickness. The rest of them are back in the air.

Now, as for the team. I did have 12 birds fly off yesterday morning in real low cloud cover. Four of them came back around 3pm and four again this morning. I am hopping the others will still return.

In a count and band check this morning I have found that in total for this year, counting the four missing yet from yesterday I am missing a total of six birds.

All of mine and Hillfamilyloft's birds are still here and doing fine. Other than the Combine band auction bird that died, all of the club and combine action birds are still here. 

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Warren

Ace and I came to a conclusion similar to yours but a bit opposite. I have not medicated or vaccinated my birds in three years. I only tried antibiotics three years ago because I thought I may have respiratory in my loft. I came to the conclusion that my birds were not flying due to diet and not disease. 

The loft that I obtained all my birds from also does not vaccinate or medicate very often. Up until this year I had only lost one bird in three years and that was a youngbirds at weining. This year I have lost two young birds out of 65 bred. 

Our thinking is that my birds not being exposed to outside disease may not have been imune to what they faced with the mixed birds. As far as I know in the last three years sending over 100 birds out to futurities and other clubs that I have not lost a bird due to disease. 

I do think you are right on the money in that the birds were not exposed to anything and have not grown immune. Not for the reason you were thinking, but a good theory. 

We were thinking paratyphoid, but that may still be a guess. One thought is that the bird he lost was also from the nest of the second bird I lost. Maybe I have a pair with something. The adults look fine. I am also thinking of vaccinating for Paratyphoid and PMV this year. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

I have had three more of the lost birds come back in the last few days. Bringing the total of birds for the race team back to 73. 

I released them in two groups this morning. The 25 that have been up and routing went up 30 min. before the others. When the second group was released they all went in with the flock for the first time. For a little while I had all 73 of them flying together in a flock. It was nice to see.

It won't be long now before the road training starts.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

It is always nice to get subsequent rounds all flying together. The birds will become easier to manage. Have you changed up the feed to a racing mix yet? I know many fanciers feed is a secret, but some insight might help the newbees. I found with my team increasing the carbs helped the energy level. Many use barley, corn or other higher carb feed added to the mix. That reminds me, I need to get those movies back to you. Also it would be nice to get some pics of the team. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Hi Randy,

The birds have been on race feed since one week before their first released outside. The feed is my own blend. They will recieve this same feed all season. The only thing that will change is some added safflower and corn for the longer races.

At this time they are only being fed once a day. In the morning. After they are released in the morning they trap for their food. They will be taken off the darkening system on the 21st of this month. After that they will be flying morning and evening, and they will then be fed twice a day. 

I have not been able to post any pics with the camera I have. I will have to get Helen's camera and see if I can get some pics on here of the team.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

Let's see if I can get pics on here now!

View attachment 9108

Hey, It worked!!!! Here is a pic of part of the team in the loft.
I will post more pics of the team soon. I sent Randy some pics yesterday of the team in the loft and bath day pics. If he can shrink them he will be posting those here as well. 



Is this bird a yellow, or what would you call it. I know it will change some when it moults out.

View attachment 9109


Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

good to see that you figured out how to post. I was working on it also. Looks like you got it. Interesting coloration on that bird. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Ya, it was in the setting on the camera. Would you believe I had to read the directions.

If you can shrink the ones I sent you still post them. If not let me know and I will get some more pics on their next bath day.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Ya, it was in the setting on the camera. Would you believe I had to read the directions.
> 
> If you can shrink the ones I sent you still post them. If not let me know and I will get some more pics on their next bath day.
> 
> Ace


If you can't shrink them, send them to me and I"ll post them. I like you're box perches.


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## ace in the hole

Hi Renee,

I have tried several times to figure out how to shrink them. If I email them to you, would you be able to shrink them and post them?

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Hi Renee,
> 
> I have tried several times to figure out how to shrink them. If I email them to you, would you be able to shrink them and post them?
> 
> Ace


Right now for some reason, I can't actually post pictures to this site, but I can put them on a page on my web site and they can be as big or small as you want them. Just send them to the email address I sent you earlier.


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## ace in the hole

*Birds, Loft & Bath Time Pics*

Hi all,

I sent the pics to Renee and she will be posting them on here from her site when she gets a chance. These are pics of the birds at rest inside the loft and of them outside in the flight pen for bath time. 

"Thank you Renee"

Ace


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## bloodlines_365

nice perch... thats one good idea.... ill make some for mine soon..... very clean for the birds....


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## Lovebirds

Here's the pictures. Don't know what's up with copying the link. 



http://lovebirdsloft.homestead.com/Acesintheholepics.html


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## bloodlines_365

those birds are pretty nice.....


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## ace in the hole

Hi Bloodlines,

Thank you. I am very happy to have the stock that I have to start back into this sport. I love spending time in the loft and watching them fly. If I can get enough training time in with them they should do very well.

As for the box perches, or roost boxes. They are made of 1x8s & 1x4s. The back wall of the loft has five 12 ft. sections (60 perches). The dividers are on 12 in. centers, and are 10 in. long. I notched out the bottom corners for the actual roosting board to fit up flush with the bottom of the divider. The roosting board they perch on is 1"x2"s and the top edges have been rounded off using a hammer handle. The sections were installed 2 in. apart from each other to give room for easy cleaning. They were not cheap to make but they do make clean up easy and keep the birds clean.


Ace


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## spirit wings

yes I like your perches too....great idea to put that strip across the dividers so they can be above the poo...if they want, that would be a good sticky for the loft design thread....perch pic ideas!


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## hillfamilyloft

Well I hear from other posts that Ace has retired his young Keiser cock to the breeding loft. Not even letting my birds beat it in the young bird races. Just razzing you Ace. I am just a bit cocky after winning High points in the Albuquerque Old bird season. One of my birds also won the 250 mile race by 9 minutes. 
This goes back to the old debate of paper vs. basket. The little guy may even have some of Warren's blood in it. I do think a guy should use stock sense, a little paper, and a lot of basket to establish his team. I know Ace thinks highly of this cock. 
I have also read by a smart winner, I think it was Groundelars who said, "If they aren't pleasing to they eye, it does not matter how well they race". They need both good looks and a good race record. Personally, I have always stocked winners, but I have also used a bit of stock sence in establishing my family of birds. I do know that winners always look the best. I know from experience that confident looking, top perch birds, strong and fiesty do produce the best youngsters for me. 
When pulling birds out of my yearling loft to send Ace for breeders, I first looked at the three most dominant "top perch" cocks and sent them along with their hens. To me the paper is similar because my birds are closely related. 
As for the 16 young birds I sent him, they were selected more by performance of their brothers and sister. 
Well if that young cock that you retired is a good as you sence he is he will breed many winners.

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Good morning Cocky, I mean Randy,

It's to foggy here this morning to put the birds up yet, so I have some time to talk birds.

To you and your birds Randy, GOOD JOB, WAY TO GO!!! Now, we just hope we can say that to each other this fall.

As for this cock bird. He does have three of his sisters on the race team. They all look great and we will see what they do. I am also letting Keizer Boy & Miss Prez raise one late hatch round for stock. These young will be bred to your birds for next years team and their dad Keizer Boy will be bred to one of your best hens. If they cross well the plan is from there to put all of the young from Keizer Boy & Prez and Keizer Boy & Your Hen together to start one part of my new family of birds. Of their offspring only the best will stay to be crossed with the other 2/3 of my new family.

The other part of this new family of birds will come from the best of my race team. One part of this family will come from Richard Clark Topgunlofts. He has sent me 20 birds out of his best (he is not flying young birds this year). Many of these birds have parents that are Futurity winners, Ace Pigeons and Hall of fame birds, as well as brothers and sisters that hold the same titles. Or maybe the 3 Super Schellen's from Ed at Siegel's. They could come from birds from Larry Fatalski, Ted Wade, Kim Aldritch, Larry Davis, Dennis Burk, John Smith or Ken Munson. They could even come from Warren Smith Smithfamilylofts through Ken Munson.

Yes Warren, I did get some of your birds after all. 
2004 IF YORK 620 wich I bred to 2004 IF YORK 830. They have three young on the team, two of them club auction birds. Also 2004 IF YORK 836 bred to a Houben Cock that goes back to a race winner of the Million $ race in Africa.

Someware in this mix is the Ace In The Hole Racing Loft's new family of birds. Where? Time will tell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you keep up with this post by this fall you will know who makes the cut!

Ace


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> ....... They could even come from Warren Smith Smithfamilylofts through Ken Munson.
> 
> Yes Warren, I did get some of your birds after all.
> 2004 IF YORK 620 wich I bred to 2004 IF YORK 830. They have three young on the team, two of them club auction birds. Also 2004 IF YORK 836 bred to a Houben Cock that goes back to a race winner of the Million $ race in Africa........
> 
> Ace


HEY !!!

Around these parts, using a SFL banded bird, even under the older YORK bands is known as cheating !! And can get you kicked out of some clubs in these here parts !! 

......................


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## hillfamilyloft

Somehow I knew I could get Warren fired up. My birds are up for a challenging task. This is the main reason I sent them to ACE. His loft is full of good bloodlines that will fly against great competition. 
For those who are wondering, my birds are mutts. They are a mix of Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, Original Janssen, Engels, a little Piet Valk, Jos Thone, etc. They are a performance based group. I have two families of birds, both represented. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

I hope this thread and others such as Warrens Test bird thread, give others that do not have clubs to fly with hope that they too can establish a family of birds and test them out. Relationships are the key. I raised or others have raised 73 birds from my bloodlines this year and had two eggs hatch out for a guy. That is 73 birds. Without relationships I would have a team of 73 birds flying around my loft, not getting tested. 
This is the first year that I did not keep any young birds. All are out to test. I am confident if and when I have a winner that its blood will come back my way. Ace is testing a third of these, and the rest are flying with two clubs in Albuquerque. I have over 40 birds flying in ABQ out of around 10 different lofts in two directions. 
My loft consists of 41 birds right now. All but one bird are responsible for the 73. She is my lap dog and I could not see selling her. The eight birds that did not raise me youngsters this year went to auction. 
My theory is that after this years young bird season, I keep breeders of winners to raise next years crop of young birds. 
My theory this year is to keep breeders of winners. The last three, I have help back brothers and sisters of test birds. I kept key birds out of here to raise young. I also sent brothers and sisters of winners to ACE to breed from . He also has birds off of birds that have bred winners. This year should be a great test. I think to get to the next level that the majority of your stock must breed winners. They other are test pairs based on results.
In Ace's case he will breed off his best young birds and also his best producers. Also to test the Kiezer birds gives him stock sense also as a test.
This will be fun. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds

hillfamilyloft said:


> I hope this thread and others such as Warrens Test bird thread, give others that do not have clubs to fly with hope that they too can establish a family of birds and test them out. Relationships are the key. I raised or others have raised 73 birds from my bloodlines this year and had two eggs hatch out for a guy. That is 73 birds. Without relationships I would have a team of 73 birds flying around my loft, not getting tested.
> This is the first year that I did not keep any young birds. All are out to test. I am confident if and when I have a winner that its blood will come back my way. Ace is testing a third of these, and the rest are flying with two clubs in Albuquerque. I have over 40 birds flying in ABQ out of around 10 different lofts in two directions.
> My loft consists of 41 birds right now. All but one bird are responsible for the 73. She is my lap dog and I could not see selling her. The eight birds that did not raise me youngsters this year went to auction.
> My theory is that after this years young bird season, I keep breeders of winners to raise next years crop of young birds.
> My theory this year is to keep breeders of winners. The last three, I have help back brothers and sisters of test birds. I kept key birds out of here to raise young. I also sent brothers and sisters of winners to ACE to breed from . He also has birds off of birds that have bred winners. This year should be a great test. I think to get to the next level that the majority of your stock must breed winners. They other are test pairs based on results.
> In Ace's case he will breed off his best young birds and also his best producers. Also to test the Kiezer birds gives him stock sense also as a test.
> This will be fun.
> 
> Randy


I think what you are doing sounds like a lot of fun. Things keep getting worse and worse as far as racing birds and clubs, etc............those folks in the big well known flying areas are doing ok I guess, but us "little" folk out here just barely hanging on...........heck, I may be in your shoes in another year or so. I love reading the updates............


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## ace in the hole

*Off To A Good Start!!!!!!!!*

*They made me proud this morning.*

This was their first real flight down the road (only 1 1/2 miles). I let them up in three groups of around 25 birds each. Each group drifted slightly to the east and then home. It was only a few minets between groups of birds. The first group was let up at 8:35 and I was home before 8:50. 

As the birds would get close to home I would loose sight of them, so I didn't know what they did from there. As I pulled in the driveway I could see five birds setting on the loft. Well, that's not going to get it, I thought to myself. You five just setting around here while the rest of the team is out routing. So I chased them back up hoping they would rout and find the rest of the team.

Well, did you guess it? I'll Bet not! Their training is going to pay off. They weren't routing. 70 of them were already in the loft feeding!!!!! 

The team will have to rout and get their workout this afternoon.

As for the five I chased up. They didn't wait around for any more of that either. This time when they landed it was in the loft for breakfast before it's all gone!!! About all they got was the left over barley!

From this point they will go 1 1/2 mile in all directions before they start to move out. This way they will get the idea of what is going on before they reach an area they do not know.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

Sounds like you're well on your way!! Good job........you can give out 75 little pats on the head for a job well done........


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## hillfamilyloft

those birds must have my bloodline in them. A few years ago I took the birds out 5 miles on about their third toss. I came home got me a bowl of cereal and sat on the back porch to watch them come in. About 20 minutes went by and I was getting worried. Out of the corner of my eye I caught a glimps of something in my young bird section. I investigated, it was my fly team staring up at me wanting breakfast. They were home the whole time. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Watching birds come home from a training toss is great, having them beat you home is even better. If this occurs on your 100 mile toss, you are in business.

Randy


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## Lovebirds

hillfamilyloft said:


> those birds must have my bloodline in them. A few years ago I took the birds out 5 miles on about their third toss. I came home got me a bowl of cereal and sat on the back porch to watch them come in. About 20 minutes went by and I was getting worried. Out of the corner of my eye I caught a glimps of something in my young bird section. I investigated, it was my fly team staring up at me wanting breakfast. They were home the whole time.
> 
> Randy


LOL..I"ve done that too....don't you feel just a bit stupid???? I did.......


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Challenges Ahead....*



hillfamilyloft said:


> I hope this thread and others such as Warrens Test bird thread, give others that do not have clubs to fly with hope that they too can establish a family of birds and test them out. Relationships are the key. I raised or others have raised 73 birds from my bloodlines this year and had two eggs hatch out for a guy. That is 73 birds. Without relationships I would have a team of 73 birds flying around my loft, not getting tested.
> This is the first year that I did not keep any young birds. All are out to test. I am confident if and when I have a winner that its blood will come back my way. Ace is testing a third of these, and the rest are flying with two clubs in Albuquerque. I have over 40 birds flying in ABQ out of around 10 different lofts in two directions.
> My loft consists of 41 birds right now. All but one bird are responsible for the 73. She is my lap dog and I could not see selling her. The eight birds that did not raise me youngsters this year went to auction.
> My theory is that after this years young bird season, I keep breeders of winners to raise next years crop of young birds.
> My theory this year is to keep breeders of winners. The last three, I have help back brothers and sisters of test birds. I kept key birds out of here to raise young. I also sent brothers and sisters of winners to ACE to breed from . He also has birds off of birds that have bred winners. This year should be a great test. I think to get to the next level that the majority of your stock must breed winners. They other are test pairs based on results.
> In Ace's case he will breed off his best young birds and also his best producers. Also to test the Kiezer birds gives him stock sense also as a test.
> This will be fun.
> 
> Randy


Hello Randy,

I can only imagine what it must be like being a real "Lone Ranger"....only time will tell if we at YRPC will be able to manage to have five flying members for Combine competition this fall. A simple loft of birds to fly around the loft for fun.....would not be all that fun. My Smith High Fliers would provide more entertainment. 

You may in the end, have to look at more of the One Loft events, in order to really know what your breeders are producing. The One Loft Race will provide hundreds of birds from dozens of the best lofts in the country, sometimes many dozens. 

This year, we raised the bar, by being in many more events, and in some of the better known venues. My best returns so far in terms of enjoyment, is my small team of "Trainee's" they include a Doctor, a truck driver, a retiree, and an 12 year old Jr. member are still left with a team, other's tried things like 30 mile training tosses at 8 weeks of age, and didn't fare so well. But, they all are 100% SFL birds !! May be the first time in history, that a SFL banded bird takes every position in a club race !!  Then I can show a 1st place winner every week !!

You may have to bite the bullet, and build a club yourself, from the bottom up !


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## ace in the hole

Hi Warren,

I would say after this year Randy will have a lot better idea of what young birds he wants to send to any one loft races next year, or when ever he feels he is ready for that.

As Randy stated he has 1/3 of the birds in my loft and birds in 10 other lofts in ABQ. With the electronic clocks his birds will be in 11 lofts with each of the longer training tosses and every race a one loft race! Plus the club and combine resaults.

There is one more thing that Randy will get from this that you can't get from a one loft race. I will be keeping and breeding only the best to the best. When I hit a cross with Randy's stock that "clicks", Randy knows he will get birds from that family and/or young from the cross. I am sure Randy has agreements with the others as well.

He is at a point now in order to move forward in his breeding program he has to bring in new blood. For his help I have made it my quest to help him with that. For next year I will be crossing the best of his stock with the best of everything else I have in this loft.

I still think he had something there when he said " Relationships are the key"

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Fortunately for me the clubs in Albuquerque are growing. They think that they may have 20 young bird fliers. They started the old bird season with about 300 birds. I am thinking that they will have around 500 for the first race NW and the other club with about 300 going south. Keep in mind my birds are about 5% of that this year. I am very suprised at the quality of the birds that are flown in the area. I was at an auction the other day and the majority of the bird are quality stock that I would not mind owning. Many imports or off of imports, WOW bids, Birds from the best fliers around the country and world. I purchased an Erik Berckmoes hen off of his Bourges winner against 13K birds. A daughter off a Bourges winner is not junk, at least on paper. I have had winners with many of the fliers in the club. I had top bird. Won the 250 with another bird that helped win top loft. Other top 10%, this with five birds out of 300. I am not in the thinking that their birds are inferior, just that mine are at the top. 

My birds will be flying with Ace in the Frankeferter club (Ha Ha) can't spell that word. This club has around 15 members are so. The birds will be flying in a club and a combine auction race. I am thinking with around 300 to 1000 birds. 
This is not the Flamingo, but good competition in its own right. 
I am also under the thinking that some of the clubs are just as competitive as some of the one-lofters. Not to dissagree with you Warren, I also believe that they are great tests for birds and I have sent mine. I would put the Springhill clubs above any futurity in the country. There are futurity races inbeded here that are also great tests for birds like the Flamingo, but when we get thousands instead of hundreds with comparable birds, we have a race.
I have tested my birds against many of the best futurity fliers, ie: Capt. Chuck, Jones Boys, Crazy Al, Brad Hogan etc. My birds fared well on a tough course. 
I love the fact that the Smith birds are the best in the world in your eyes, but mine are also highly qualified in mine. I did not send them to Ace to be average birds, nor do I shun the competition. Ace looked for good blood that wins. That is why he has York and also DRO birds in his loft. Keep in mind this is not all he has. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Just to give everyone an idea of how this works. My mentor Vern found a new cock from the World of Wings down from a DTL 969 Janssen. He bred it to his now infamous "08" a Bob Kinney bird that cross is paying for his feed. She is also the Dam to my "08" bloodline that pays for my feed. 
I was talking to a friend of mine in Albuquerque when I was down at the club meeting and auction. I need a place for my new hen (Bourges winners daughter) to stay for a while. I wanted to play golf and come on home. I did not want the bird in the hot car. 
He agreed to keep her for a few months. I told him to find her a bf for a few rounds of eggs. He has individual breeding pens. He agreed and has pumpers to put the eggs under. She is getting a bit old so four birds the end of this year is a good thing. Now for her BF. My friend Anthony has a World of Wings cock, brother to Vern's from a later round, go figure. This is my new hen's boy friend. 
I told him that I want two young birds out of the four. Where will one go, to Vern of course. The other two will stay with Anthony. I will keep one. 
Vern also sent 10 birds to fly in Albuquerque. One young birds off of "08" and the DTL will fly with Anthony. 
Anthony did not fair too well this year in old birds. My goal is to change that in young birds this year. He is flying 8 young birds off of my best. 
Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Sorry I am chatty tonight. One other thing that comes to mind. The winner of top loft flies birds from me. I had Top Points bird and He had second top points bird. She was top 10% in three out of five races and faired well in the other two flown. I have won four or five races for him with birds of mine that he is breeding. I mentioned that I would like a full sister to the second point bird. He told me why not breed her with the 250 winner and give me a baby. This works for me also. 

like Ace said relationships. 

Now that the ABQ guys are breeding from my birds, I will see how they cross with other bloodlines. If these birds beat mine, that is the direction I will go. 

Randy


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## Bluecheckard

hillfamilyloft said:


> Sorry I am chatty tonight. One other thing that comes to mind. The winner of top loft flies birds from me. I had Top Points bird and He had second top points bird. She was top 10% in three out of five races and faired well in the other two flown. I have won four or five races for him with birds of mine that he is breeding. I mentioned that I would like a full sister to the second point bird. He told me why not breed her with the 250 winner and give me a baby. This works for me also.
> 
> like Ace said relationships.
> 
> Now that the ABQ guys are breeding from my birds, I will see how they cross with other bloodlines. If these birds beat mine, that is the direction I will go.
> 
> Randy



keep on posting your experience and stories about racing pigeon I am learning a lot of things just by reading here. I am just a newbie in this sport and would like to learn more things about racing pigeon. I have finished my breeding loft last week and right now i have 3 racing pigeon. 2 of my pigeon was from my friend he got this pigeons from a feed store in 2002 and one is a gift from my wife that we have purchased online two weeks ago.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> .......There is one more thing that Randy will get from this that you can't get from a one loft race. I will be keeping and breeding only the best to the best.... Ace


 Randy & Ace,

Breeding your best to your best, is something that most fanciers would agree with, and if a poll were taken, I would bet that a very large majority of fanciers would claim that is what they do. The reality is though, that the majority of fanciers, even after practicing this craft for fifty years, are for the most part, still producing fairly typical pigeons. 

So, I guess my point is, breeding best to best, is what everyone claims to be doing right now. This concept of best to best, sounds easy and simple, and appears to be a good basic principal. The real question may be, how does one really know what his best pigeons are ? And if the fancier by some chance get's it right, what are the odds that a pair of pigeons of any quality, will produce young better then themselves ? And then how does one account for the fact, that your star racers do not always become your star producers ? 

My experience has been that as a general rule, pigeons will breed down, not up. And as an example, how many Super Star World Class Racers, which have been put out to stud at super high prices, have produced any young which exceeded the Super Star in racing performance ? There are fanciers in the USA with million dollar inventories of Super World Class Racers at stud, and then enter many dozens of One Loft events, often with several teams, and at the end of the season, only a small percentage really produced the goods. Those are the ones the big fancy glossy ads will of course talk about.

Every year, these fanciers then search the world, with six figure bank rolls trying to find additional Super Stars to add to their collections, but at the end of the day, they still produce a heck of a lot of just plain, everyday, typical pigeons. You know all this of course, just wanted to expand on the challenges of breeding better pigeons.

Sometimes, your best race performing hen and your best race performing cock, are not a match made in heaven. They may both have some of the same faults which you do not wish to have amplified...and sometimes your best breeding cock, and your best breeding hen, do not produce well together. 

And then, to top it all off, there is that nagging reality, that if by some chance a really once in a lifetime kind of Super bird, happens to come into our possession, how many fanciers really know what to do with such a bird ? There have been ample examples through out my lifetime, of that happening to a fancier and the fancier goes straight to the top of the race sheets, but then after the bird dies, or is sold, or otherwise no longer available, that fancier sinks back to average again, not knowing how or why he ended up on top in the first place, and clueless as to how to stay there.

Like I said, everyone knows all this to be true, but the challenging part, is being able to produce those very few World Class pigeons, which can and will move your colony forward. And I trust that the two of you have a good working relationship, and will work well together. The real test for the other ten fanciers, is if by chance one of those Hill Family Loft birds turns out to be one of those really World Class, Mike Ganus type of birds where fanciers line up to pay $8,500 for a YB off of it, if that new owner in this "test" will be as generous to Randy, as he was to them.

I throw this out there, not to pretend that I have the answers, but to help readers realise how daunting of a task, that we as fanciers face. And everyone out there, who is attemting to breed better birds, are all attempting to do the same thing. And the vast majority of us, because of the laws of mathmatics, will still be pretty much average.


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## hillfamilyloft

Good thought on the "if they had a champion, would they remember you". I am sure some would not and the "who are you again, type attitude might come forth. I guess I am a "the cup half full" kind of guy. There is taking and dishonesty everywhere. My thought is that their are about the % of dishonesty in the world as their are prize birds. I hear the 5 out of 100 good birds all the time. I think one big test for my birds this year will be that 5% test. The criteria that they are tested against is not the same for every bird, but I think they will still be tested all the same. I was crunching numbers and came up with 72 Hill Family birds out for testing this year. I am hoping that more than four of these birds are what I would think as "good". What is a good bird is relevant to who you ask. I classify a good bird as a race winner maybe a diploma bird in a larger race. We will see. I think a good breeding system could get a guy more in the one in ten or two and ten. We will see.

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Warren,

I know what you are saying. Most people don't know what they have and if they do they don't know what to do with it. Most people will breed this bird or what is produced by this "click" pair back into their flock trying to improve the performance of the team. 

Here is a tip for all of you "MOST PEOPLE". By breeding this bird or birds back into your flock, It is like adding a pail of water to your pond. It didn't bring the level up much did it?

The key here is to isolate these genes from the comon flock and focus on it as a new family of birds. The way you proceed from here will determine the out come of your time and efforts. 

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

I agree. I would use the analogy that if you brought say a Kobi Bryant into say a flock of Danny Divitos (sp) you an not likely to get an NBA guard. On the other hand if you bred the Lakers to a WMBA team you might likely get a physical specimen that could play ball.

I was fortunate enough to get my original 12 that could breed ball players. The key to my program is now to find members of that second and third generation that can "play ball". This is where many go wrong. Not to say I will not. This is the hard part. Buying great birds is the easy part, assuming that you have the money or the relationships to acquire such birds. Many fliers have great pedigrees, but they lack in those second and third generation birds. 9 out of my first 12 have raised me winners. Keep in mind that this was a fanciers second, third and fourth generation. 

Testing my birds is the only way, I will find these second and third generation breeders. I now feel comfortable with about 10 pairs of breeders. That is my original 9 birds and 11 more out of my colony in four years. Many fanciers fall short, but have deep pockets and just go buy more birds, to try to get that first generation fix. 

You study the best fanciers in any country and you find a breeding colony many generations deep. Young birds, just as good as the breeders. Examples would be Ludo, Sangers, Thone, Verkerk, Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, etc. Their birds are deep in lineage and produce better than average. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Well I had a good post that went away. Well the gist of it was carrying over from the Black Sion post. I thought it relevant to tell a little bit about the birds that I have and what each of my families represents. The premise is that a fancier might need more than one type of bird. One for sprint races and one for long races. Maybe even a middle distance bird. This will cover the 100 to 400 mile range in young birds and the 100 - 500 mile range in old. 

I fly with futurity type races and with clubs. These races range from 100 to 400 miles. I am developing two types of families to cover this spread. Ace has both of these families represented in the testing. My families would be classified as Sprint to Middle and Middle. In the Netherlands they have sprint, middle, long one day, and two day races. They develop birds for all four types of races.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

I am doing this in pieces so if I loose anything. Keep in mind that I started with 12 birds. Every one has Vic Miller blood of some sort. Some 100% others only 25%.

Family one Middle distance. I like Warren am looking for the best middle distance futurity bird. I started with two hens for this family that are 50% Bob Kinney - 25% Piet Valk Janssen - 25% Vic Miller. A good middle distance cross. They are off the "08" Bob Kinney blood that breeds great futurity birds. Grand daughters of the Miller Cock -20th Snow Bird 320mi. I crossed these birds with a 100% Engels bird and a Delbar/Janssen bird. Crossed these in and so on. Have had winners Average Speed, 250mi to 340mi.

Sprint middle. Started with two 100% Vic Miller Birds. Great Middle distance family. Crossed with 100% Janssen bird and a Grandson of Ikon/Magic Star. These birds tend to be faster than family one but not a reliable in the tough races. Have had winners from 100 to 250.

Sprint- Van Reet x Vic Miller. High points bird 3rd 125mi and 175mi.

The first and second families are represented in Ace's Loft.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

All can win at futurity distance, but have their strengths. My first family will do best in tough headwind races. Family two could easily win a blow home 300 mile race. They are strong around 200 - 250. Out of the 16 birds that I bred and sent to ace, all family one birds were bred for the Action race 320 miles, two birds crossed family 1 x family 2 and two out of family two were auction birds. The other birds were club banded. 

In the "hot dog" club that Ace flies in they have races from 100 to 350 ybs and 100 - 400 as old birds. Thus needing two types of birds, sprinters and middle distance type birds. I used my Bob Kinney birds as the base for my middle distance birds. They are Janssen x Gordon. He won everything with these birds. Sprinters x long distance birds. My thoughts are this would be a good foundation for a tough middle distance family. For a 320 mile race this was our choice. I have won 300 miles, 2 at 250 miles and an average speed 100mi to 340mi futurity with these birds. They get stronger with distance. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

The series that Ace is flying in is going to be a Race inside a Race inside a Race as far as my test birds are concerned. They are being tested as Sprinters and Middle distance birds. They are being tested for a spot to found the loft of Ace. Like a mini-futurity against 70 young birds, one against 70 for a spot in the loft. They are also racing against the club and combine. If they do not compete here than they will all be out. Ace has acquired some great birds to test out. It will be fun when races come. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Yes Randy, that will be a fun time.

NOW, you have called my club the Frankeferter Club and the Hot Dod Club!*@#!* It is the Frankenmuth Racing Pigeon Club!!!!! Get It Right!!

Now that we have gotten that strait. (HA HA) The task at hand is to get them trained out and ready for the races. The weather has been bad the last two days so the birds have only been loft flown. If the weather is right tomorrow they will go back to the three mile release point. Three days ago they were released at three miles in three groups. The first and third group, released 1/2 hour apart, arrived within a minute of each other. The second group I would say was hit by a hawk or falcon. One of them was home before the other two groups arrived and most of group #2 came in 1,2,5,6,6 over the next hour. Three of them never returned.

I have also discovered a few unruly children on the team. These two birds will go out of the loft with the rest of the team to fly but instead break from the flock and land on seperate barns and wait for the team to land and trap. After that they will fly back trap and feed. 

One of these birds is from Randy's Woody & Katlin and the other a combine auction bird from Larry Davis, an Old Bird Top flier in my club. This bird has brothers and sisters that are first place winners and money winners as well as three Uncles that are AU ACE pigeons. Seeing how I can not remove these two from the team they will now earn their spots on the team. Starting tomorrow they will no longer loft fly or train with the rest of the team. I don't want them teaching the others to drop down to rest when ever they want. These two birds will be released one at a time away from the loft only. They will not train with the others untill they are all out 45 miles. At this time I will start training with two or three others from the club and these two will join them to learn to break.

I will keep you all informed as these birds move out and I get the clock on them. The clock will tell me what they are doing!

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

For those interested, the two clubs I will be flying with are the Frankenstien club with Ace and the Los Lobos Racing Pigeon club in Albuquerque. I will also most likely have birds in the ABQ club that also post results on Los Lobos page. 
http://loslobosrpc.com
Both can be found on the AU webpage, under the national Data Base. Great place to find and post your race results. 

Randy


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## mr squeaks

I don't know, Ace...do you think Randy might have a "learning" disability??? ROFL

 

GOOD LUCK TO ALL

Shi


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## hillfamilyloft

Hey Mr. Squeaks

Do you know Scott McCallister? He is moving his opperation down that way. He has a great group of birds. I have a few off his Snow Bird line. He has been very successful with the Vic Miller birds crossed into his old line of Vandeveldes. He flies futurities and has joined with a club down that way. 

Oh by they way we are all mentally challenged in some way. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Hi Mr squeaks,

You know they say God made us all "special". Well Randy may be a little more special than most!! If you know waht I mean. lol lol lol lol


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## ace in the hole

A quick update,

70 birds went 6 1/2 miles yesterday. 65 of them were back in the loft less than 1 1/2 hours after their release. Head count last night 69. This morning #70 came home at 9am.

Today they will just loft fly and tomorrow back to 6 1/2 miles in smaller groups all but Club Auction Bird FM 5456 who came in this morning. She will be held back and fed all she wants today and tomorrow. She must have been in the air all day yesterday trying to find home. She has lost wait and is just beat. This is a nice hen out of the breeders Randy sent me.

Ace


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## re lee

hillfamilyloft said:


> All can win at futurity distance, but have their strengths. My first family will do best in tough headwind races. Family two could easily win a blow home 300 mile race. They are strong around 200 - 250. Out of the 16 birds that I bred and sent to ace, all family one birds were bred for the Action race 320 miles, two birds crossed family 1 x family 2 and two out of family two were auction birds. The other birds were club banded.
> 
> In the "hot dog" club that Ace flies in they have races from 100 to 350 ybs and 100 - 400 as old birds. Thus needing two types of birds, sprinters and middle distance type birds. I used my Bob Kinney birds as the base for my middle distance birds. They are Janssen x Gordon. He won everything with these birds. Sprinters x long distance birds. My thoughts are this would be a good foundation for a tough middle distance family. For a 320 mile race this was our choice. I have won 300 miles, 2 at 250 miles and an average speed 100mi to 340mi futurity with these birds. They get stronger with distance.


Now rember Gordans First Not real Gordons left As its been some years since Morris gordan died. Now Gordan used Osmans and Buittas in his development Of his Gordans. AND he said of his own bird Young birds raced hard during young bird race season HE would never use as a breeder. As he fewlty this stunted and reduce there over all quality. His birds were considered more or less third year birds. They performed best as full mature old birds. And as noticed they matured at a somwhat slowere rate But as 3 year old looked great and raced great. I used to race and keep Gordans in the 1970s Had some directly from Gordan. They performed better as young after the 20 to 250 mile races. They would perhaps give an edge on hard races for a cross. And I know of some who still say the raise a nd breed Gordans I feel they real gordan birds have been bred out Because any birds That Gordan had raised is long since Gone only great great, great, great ,grandchildren would be around Those bred down from Gordans birds. My last true Gordan was an 1969 bird


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> A quick update,
> 
> 70 birds went 6 1/2 miles yesterday. 65 of them were back in the loft less than 1 1/2 hours after their release. Head count last night 69. This morning #70 came home at 9am........
> 
> 
> 
> Ace


 Ace,

I may be a little behind the curve on some things, as I really don't know what everyone else is doing out there, but 1 & 1/2 hours to do a 6 mile or so toss, and one being home on the 2nd day, does not sound exactly like an ideal training toss. Although our local Jr. member reported a 1 & 1/2 training toss the other day from about 12 miles. 

The other day, I took my birds to their forth training toss, and at this new longer location of about 16 miles, it took a whole 20 minutes to make their way back and into the loft. Now with your toss, I'm figuring it could be a couple of things. #1 Looking on the positive side, they are just feeling so good, and are so close to the loft, that they simply started to rout from there. As I am sure at only 6.5 miles, they have been further away from the loft on routing trips. Or #2 It really did take them 1 & 1/2 hours to get home, as they had difficulty finding their way back....the 4 back later then 1 1/2 hours, and the bird back on the 2nd day gives some evidence that could be the case. 

Which leads me to ask if they were motivated to return quickly, as in, were they ready to eat ? I am posting, because I suggested to our Jr. member the two possibilities above, and suggested for him to err on the side of caution, as he only has like an 8 bird race team. So, I suggested that perhaps it was a "Bad Spot" to release birds, or perhaps they followed another fancier's birds who was also training that morning.

Anyway, thanks for the update, perhaps on the next toss at that location they will get down to business.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> Now rember Gordans First Not real Gordons left As its been some years since Morris gordan died. Now Gordan used Osmans and Buittas in his development Of his Gordans. AND he said of his own bird Young birds raced hard during young bird race season HE would never use as a breeder. As he fewlty this stunted and reduce there over all quality. His birds were considered more or less third year birds. They performed best as full mature old birds. And as noticed they matured at a somwhat slowere rate But as 3 year old looked great and raced great. I used to race and keep Gordans in the 1970s Had some directly from Gordan. They performed better as young after the 20 to 250 mile races. They would perhaps give an edge on hard races for a cross. And I know of some who still say the raise a nd breed Gordans I feel they real gordan birds have been bred out Because any birds That Gordan had raised is long since Gone only great great, great, great ,grandchildren would be around Those bred down from Gordans birds. My last true Gordan was an 1969 bird


 I'm pretty sure Randy knows that, as we had this discussion on another thread recently. I'm sure it is just a habit, just as when he mentions his "Kinney" birds, he feels he must elaborate and say they are Janssen x Gordon, when in reality, they are "Kinney" birds, but he just can't help himself.......

I don't know this Bob Kinney, but I would bet, that the parents of any birds that Randy got from him, were not the direct offspring of birds directly from the Janssen brothers, and Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gordon has been dead too long, and Randy is too young. Most likely, Mr. Kinney developed his own family of birds from pigeons which were decendents of birds from the Janssen brothers and Mr. Gordon. The only way I would consider a bird a Janssen x Gordon is if birds directly from these two fanciers were paired together. But after this pairing, when Mr. Kinney did the selection, and the pairing, it became a 100% "pure" Kinney !! 

Now, of course, the next step, is to get our dear friend Randy here, to also stop referring to the birds he has bred, as "Bob Kinney" base birds....and step up to the plate and accept responsibility for his creations...good, bad, ugly, or indifferent. If Randy is doing the selecting and pairing, they are now "Randy Hill" pigeons !!!  The great performances of past fanciers who had a hand in breeding this grand parent, or that great great grand parent, is all rather meaningless now. It's the performances of the YB's he is producing now, that counts !

When Ace here wins Bird of the Year, and Champion Loft, and if he is AU, American Ace awards etc. What will the birds be then Janssen X Gordon's or Bob Kinney base ? 

No....at that point, Randy will be confident enough to call them *Randy Hill's *bird's !


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## ace in the hole

Hi Warren,

Yes, #2 is right. I released them in three groups 15 minutes apart. When I got home the first group was already home and in the loft. Something happened to the second group again and they broke up. One showed up right after I got home, then a few more before I went in the house. I was just stating that when I went back out 1 1/2 hours after the last group was released 65 were back.

It is because the second group broke up the way they did I am going to release from there again. I just hope it wasn't from a hawk hit and I put them right back in front of the hawk, but those are the kind of things you just don't know!

Also, yes, they were motivated by feed. When they land they trap within seconds. The other day I had all 70 of them come back from 3 miles and from the time they touched the loft they were all but three in the loft and feeding in less than 20 seconds.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Sometimes I think Warren's ego gets to him. For one, I would think he would know who Bob Kinney was. As for the article that was in RPC a few months back talking about his death. I am sure that more people in the sport would know who Mr. Kinney was far more often than Mr. Smith, but anyway, Warren likes to discount all but himself. Warren I am simply going to leave you with an article written about the late Bob Kinney by another less know fancier Silvio Mattacchione, so you can make your own judgements about the man and his birds. My Bob Kinney based birds are of this bloodline. You judge for yourself how closely related they are to whatever I say they are. Yes they are Bob Kinney birds, I am only referencing the history of the birds. The birds I sent Ace are clearly crosses, I am only refering to the history. 

Randy

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/pdf/Good-Samaritan.pdf


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## hillfamilyloft

For a brief history of the "Bob Kinney" portion of my bloodline for those interested, I will refer to the "08 Hen" of my mentor Vern Crawley. This hen was a World of Wings hen that Vern purchased through the WOW band program. The Sire and Dam of the bird were Bob Kinney dontated birds. I have three direct 50% "08 Hen" offspring. I value the "08" as one of the founding Mothers of my loft. The majority of my birds have some portion of "08" blood in them. In the last four years she has bred the following:

Dam to:
14th Vegas Crap Shoot
2nd 200 mile race Colorado Gold Rush
3rd Snake River Challenge
22nd Spirit of Colorado (was first in trap 3 training tosses)

Granddam to:
Winner Western Slopes Futurity
300 miles Flagstaff to ABQ
Bond winner 205 miles Deming to ABQ
Many diploma winners

This is out of only a dozen or so offspring of the "08 Hen". She is a good breeder. These results above are with three different Cocks. 

Another great contributor to the "Hill Family Birds" are the birds of Vic Miller. If you are not familiar with Vic Miller, he is also know as "Mr. Snowbird". He owned the Snowbird Classic in the 90s, winning over 150K in the race. I also have birds from Scott McCallister the 54K 2002 winner of the Snowbird. His birds are Vic Miller based birds. 

For some reason I feel that I must defend the quality of my birds from the attacks of some. Maybe the fact that I have not spent 1000s of dollars on a few birds, makes me more vulnerable to the attacks of those who have. Also giving credit to those who have spent years developing winning families, not just in one race but countless futurities, clubs and combines should not be under attack here. Yes they are my birds and I am proud of their accomplishments in the short time that I have had them. 

What we should get back to here is how this post can be used to follow how a group of birds and a fancier race a young bird season. It can also be a learning experience to all. I think that the methods and the birds should not be under attack every time a bird is lost, a toss is not perfect etc. This is pigeon flying. I have confidence in Ace and his abilities. Not every thing will go perfectly. Not all the Hill birds will be successful. My hope is all will get something out of this post that they can use. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Sometimes I think Warren's ego gets to him. For one, I would think he would know who Bob Kinney was. As for the article that was in RPC a few months back talking about his death. I am sure that more people in the sport would know who Mr. Kinney was far more often than Mr. Smith, but anyway, Warren likes to discount all but himself. Warren I am simply going to leave you with an article written about the late Bob Kinney by another less know fancier Silvio Mattacchione, so you can make your own judgements about the man and his birds. My Bob Kinney based birds are of this bloodline. You judge for yourself how closely related they are to whatever I say they are. Yes they are Bob Kinney birds, I am only referencing the history of the birds. The birds I sent Ace are clearly crosses, I am only refering to the history.
> 
> Randy
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/pdf/Good-Samaritan.pdf



Hello Randy,

I think, that some of what is thought of as, a "Big Ego", is sometimes simply a quality or a fault in my writing style. I am as much of a student of this art form we call "pigeon racing", as the newest and greenest fancier, who is reading this post. If in my writings, I come across as some "expert", then please forgive my ignorance. 

I like perhaps most people reading these posts, did not "know" Mr. Bob Kinney or his birds. In fact, I am much more familar with Silvio Mattacchione and his articles and web site. Most of what I know about Mr. Kinney is from articles written in the Racing Pigeon Digest. Most of the time, I associated the name with articles, but truth be told, I don't spend very much time reading the RPD, and a lot of times, I give them away to our new members of the "100 Mile Club", through the YRPC. So, I confess I never studied his racing records or history, pedigrees, or foundation birds. I do appreciate your sharing these details, and providing interesting reading.

If you think in any way I was trying to be critical or judgmental, then please forgive me, that certainly was not my intention. Anyone with a YB team right now, has some kind of issues, or else they don't think they do, and they do. I am sure we have all had, and will continue to have, up's and down's throughout this 2008 year. 

Your particular interest Randy, may be in how your breeding may be reflected in their performance. But, for many of us, the management of our particular team, may account for 80% of the performance. So, if we question the how's and why's of certain procedures undertaken, for some of us, at least me, this is a very educational process. 

I currently have 7 teams of various sizes, flying in 7 different lofts locally. Most are very green, and believe me, I am learning a lot from various management practices, the good, the bad, and the ugly ! So, the opportunity to learn from ACE, in his management, even when it may not be perfect, or mistakes might be made, and what appears to work well, is as much, or perhaps more valuable to me, then a break down of the last 5 or 6 generations, interesting as it may be. 

So please don't take offence when I offer a question, or make a comment, or throw in a couple of cents. I don't have all the answers, heck I don't even know most of the questions. My comments concerning the Hill Family Lofts birds, was meant to be complimentarily. I was trying to suggest that you are far too modest. You have created your own family "strain", and are now enjoying yourself and "testing" with various fliers. You seemed to be upset, when I was trying to suggest, the credit belongs to you and not the two or three fanciers before you. 

I just think you're a little hung up on ancestries and "pure" blood vs. "crosses". My view is simply that every pigeon on this earth as I write this, is a "Cross"...some are more so, some are less. When you place your two hands on a bird, and start the selection process for pairing, starting with the first generation......and each generation thereafter, you make your imprint on the genetic make up. Certainly by the 2nd generation, these are Hill Family Loft birds, as your hands guided the process. The base in terms of names, is meaningless, only important thing is they were "good" pigeons. Ludo Claessen proved that with a stray "barn" pigeon. 

Thank you for your posts Randy and Ace, no matter what the personal outcomes of these various birds happens to be, this should be a very educational experience.


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## re lee

Over the years i have met people That have bed up families of birds. The few that did well most often . Which means a better average. were more set in what they introduced into the breeding loft. Some would not by birds that were not from a top loft that did not breed the same family group line. And then these breeders would be set on a program for many years. Then would notice a break down in the family. TO tight of breeding Then introduce certion outside birds And spend the next few years building and strenghening the new family line X amount of breeder birds times X amount of years calls for an outside birdAs we each put our hands on breeding any line of birds Or any known breed. The results are near the same. SMALL very small percents can carry the line on, and then less can take it forward. 10 out of a hundred sounds good. But results show perhaps 1 out of a hundred keep you going forward or maintains the quality base. Selection is seen in hanling the bird, testing the bird racing the bird Then selecting the better breeder bird. IT by far is not allways the fastest race bird . But can be the brother or sister that while not as fast But was the more consistant bird. Placeing over all the better average. Best to best is not nor never has been the way to breed top birds. Many times it fails. Why some birds do better being raced or shown But fail in breeding the birds that can race best As they can not bring that hidden abilty to the surface Or when bred from They produce lesser then there self through there gentic faults that come more forward. Might breed 500 bird befor the prpoten bird comes along And that bird might be missed. Pedigree, is the big key NOT the paper but the written results that each bird shows generation after generation. A ped say this is out of this is like counterfiet money. It may look real but gets you in trouble when you use it. History of race results on each bird down the line tells the truth and what can be expected for future use. Say 8 birds this year out of your top pair. If your lucky this year you produced 1 just 1 good bird from them Others well maybe ok May help some one else but not your loft you need only the best average bird Average being the over all best postioned bird raced from that pair. and the old saying if the pair has not produced birds as good as them in 3 years get rid of them if they have produced birds better then them get rid of them It work and strain names are a start but remember they change there make up breeding in your loft you are the new name on the strain line also janssen / JONES. or jonmes janssens if you wish Or just Jones racing pigeons


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*There are no attacks going on....*



hillfamilyloft said:


> .......For some reason I feel that I must defend the quality of my birds from the attacks of some. Maybe the fact that I have not spent 1000s of dollars on a few birds, makes me more vulnerable to the attacks of those who have. Also giving credit to those who have spent years developing winning families, not just in one race but countless futurities, clubs and combines should not be under attack here. Yes they are my birds and I am proud of their accomplishments in the short time that I have had them.
> 
> What we should get back to here is how this post can be used to follow how a group of birds and a fancier race a young bird season. It can also be a learning experience to all. I think that the methods and the birds should not be under attack every time a bird is lost, a toss is not perfect etc. This is pigeon flying. I have confidence in Ace and his abilities. Not every thing will go perfectly. Not all the Hill birds will be successful. My hope is all will get something out of this post that they can use.
> 
> Randy


Hello Randy,

I didn't think I, or anyone else here was "attacking" the quality of your birds.
And yes, you should feel proud of your birds, I don't think anyone mentioned the prices you paid, or didn't pay, so I don't understand this part of your post.

I also don't think that any comment was made in a derogatory fashion towards any other fancier, certainly nothing which even comes close to an "attack".

I do think you are being a bit sensitive and overly protective of any questions or comments, regarding these "Test Birds" which are the subject of this thread. Questions, or comments regarding the birds and the training methods, when birds are lost, should not be viewed as some sort of personal criticism, or "attacks". 

I would think that even management mistakes would be a valueable learning experience for not only Ace, but all of the readers. I'm sorry that my questions or comments were taken as an affront to your breeding skills or ability. I'm quite sure, with your bird's backgrounds, and your breeding skill, and Ace's hard work, that you will have some successes to hang your hat on. So, relax a little bit, and enjoy the process. You are not being graded during this "Test", there is no pass or fail. We will still like you, regardless of the out come, so don't stress yourself so much.


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## re lee

I just do not believe so much in strains After they have left the strain maker for a few years. I do believe in straing base for the birds. BUT I feel each person sets a mark on the birds And most breeds except race birds here in the old USA the breeder gets the credit TOM SMITHS birds JOE BROWNS birds. When that person has bred up the birds they have. IT has noting to do with how much a bird costs Because in race birds They have been foolishly over priced And the import birds bought by some Are advertised To sell young birds Many get there money back and then some Plus get to breed and produce winners. BUT Most breeds you can buy a top bird for 200 to 600 dollars. Now granted the big money races does take beeter birds to play with the big boys. There are many race lofts that have very little invested in the birds. AND they do great in club combine and federation. Some do ok in the money races. I feel USA birds are neglected there have been many great birds here in the USA for well longer then my lifetime. BUT the spread of many small clubs has not helped the birds be noticed as well. NOW today larged federations And state races have grown giving bigger tests on the birds. The one loft races Tests to a degree. BUT if more people in the state level competed in state races More birds compete. BUT the USA does not have the backing of interest as it did many years back when this would have worked had the idea been put into play. When I was young There was much more people keeping the birds NOW the numbers have just gone down to a few in each town To none in a town. And interest is going down in other countries It is not easy to get a new comer to invest thousands of dollars in pigeons Much less getting a new person interested. And any breed only produces a few good birds a year in any loft Be it from 20.000 dolllar pairs to 100 dollar pairs. Results is the same a handful of useable birds and 9/10s of birds that need to leave the program There is where many go wrong keeping or selling there so so birds. The old story never sell a bird you would not breed from your self. Well it is not held with much honor with many out to make a buck. never give a new comer that wants to race your worst birds just to get rid of them. Cut the bands off your unworthy birds and give them to people who want back yard birds. pets to fly around the house. What i am saying respect needs to be a strong side to building the sport and increasing the over all quality in each loft PAPER looks great and is very much a need to breed by. BUT never sell paper and give a junk bird with it. That person wants to improve there loft or start a loft of useable birds. MONEY is great but knowing you helped someone one the best you could with what they could afford to pay or just as a gift. That brings new friends and new people to this sport. And some practice this concept others do not care they want to sell every bird they canAnd many worl class lofts was founded on free birds and low priced birds from good people so never think Your birds are not to be respected proof is in the sky on race day freed bird 20.000 dollar bird the race selects the winner not money.


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## Happy

Ace,& Randy You are soooooo right giving credit to those Masters before us that worked so hard Racing, Pairing these Strains. Yahoooo for you giving their due credit to them!! I applaud you................ Happy


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## Lovebirds

Happy said:


> Ace, You are soooooo right giving credit to those Masters before us that worked so hard Racing, Pairing these Strains. Yahoooo for you giving their due credit to them!! I applaud you................ Happy


Don't want to butt in on the thread..........but where ya been Happy? Haven't heard from you in a LOONNNGG time..............


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## ace in the hole

Thank you Happy,

Yes , this thread is not about me it is about the birds I am flying, and most of them are not mine. More than one third of them are from Randy Hill. Even the ones I produced from the five pair of breeders Randy sent me are "HIS". I say that because they were paired when they arrived and I did not change that. My hand and my eye did not select these pairings. There are only 10 of the remaining birds that I could in any way call my own.

Now for a short up date,

Yesterday the team went 17.5 miles and today 26.4 miles. I was able to time the last group today. They were home in 38 minutes. That puts them at 1222 yards per minute. I will be able to keep up with all of that now that the new Express G2 has been set up and the chip rings activated today. As they move out from here I am looking for this time to improve more and more.

The team will rest tomorrow ( loft fly only ), and Sunday they will go 35 miles. Now that the clock is on them, this is were it becomes a one loft race.



ACE


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## Young Bird

How do you like the Express G2 timer Ace in the hole? I am most likely going to get that timer unless I find a deal on a used one.


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## ace in the hole

Hi Young Bird,

So far I like the G2. It is easy to set up and use. I just came in from putting the chip rings on all the birds.

I won't get to use the clock for a training until Monday. They are calling for 20 to 30 mile an hour winds tomorrow.

I'll keep you informed as I use the system more. It will be on for every training flight from now on. The information I get from their training will tell me how to basket the birds for the races.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

Hi All,

Today the team went 37.3 miles. They were released in proups of ten. Most made real good time. The best time was 1238.6 yards per minute. Of 59 birds released there are 52 in the loft now. The wind has really picked up and I am a little conserned about the birds still out. Mother nature may not be my friend today!

The first race is 12 days off. Now that they are on the clock I will give you resaults from the training tosses between now and the first race.

Today the five fastest birds in the loft were.

#1 LM 1136 * 1238.6 yards per minute * Bred by Ted Wade of Lansing MI.
#2 FM 5459 * Bred by self from Hillfamilyloft's Woody & katlen
#3 FM 5424 * Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT from YORK 620 & YORK 830, recieved from Ken Munson & bred by Warren Smith. 
#4 FM 5485 * Bred by Larry Fatalski of Detroit MI
#5 FM 5423 * Bred by self from Hillfamilyloft's DRO 1369 & DRO 1364

Now, let's see if we see these birds in the top again.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

It might be interesting to see if the Hill family bloodline does better when bred out of your loft or mine. A good hypothesis to test is whether home grown birds do better than shipped birds. I would think they would because of the stress and the first 30 days they were somewhere else. I think you would get more losses from imported birds. Some of the birds you bred were older than the birds I shipped. As the training and races go on, this would be something to keep in mind. Another question to ask is whether first rounders or second rounders do best. 

Many of us make the decision to go with young birds or breeders to start our lofts. This may help in making that decision. I know it is early in training, but this is something that can be tested. 

Good to see you have a variety of birds up front. Makes it like a one loft race. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Come onnnnn..... 5424 !!!!*



ace in the hole said:


> .......
> The first race is 12 days off. Now that they are on the clock I will give you resaults from the training tosses between now and the first race.
> 
> Today the five fastest birds in the loft were.
> 
> #1 LM 1136 * 1238.6 yards per minute * Bred by Ted Wade of Lansing MI.
> #2 FM 5459 * Bred by self from Hillfamilyloft's Woody & katlen
> #3 *FM 5424 ** Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT from *YORK 620 & YORK 830*, recieved from Ken Munson & *bred by Warren Smith*.
> #4 FM 5485 * Bred by Larry Fatalski of Detroit MI
> #5 FM 5423 * Bred by self from Hillfamilyloft's DRO 1369 & DRO 1364
> 
> Now, let's see if we see these birds in the top again.
> 
> Ace


Thanks for the update Ace. 

Perhaps if *5424* does well in the races, I will bore you all to tears, with some history on those two particular birds. I will have to drop such names as Fred Smeltzer and 720, The Vegas Cock which won 1st Place Triple Crown, Geb De Wit, Verbree and his Ultra Doffer sire of Gold Metal Winner in 2001 and crowned "World Champion", Duke of Earl sire to 2007 1st Place Flamingo winner, Theo Ijskout and his Mike's Pick, and of course Lewis Burns and his "Blue Falcon" among others. Many outstanding birds and fanciers have contributed to the foundations along the way. Bottom line is both parents 620 & 830 are both *100% pure Smith*. If the pedigrees could fly, then you will have winners. 

Maybe these particular birds 620 & 830 YORK, have it in the breeding department, maybe they don't. Some close relatives, such as brothers and sisters, are also in the 2008 Winner's Cup. See: http://www.winnerscupusa.com/

So at least from a family stand point, it's possible you have something very special. Then again, their offspring could end up 100% duds. We shall all see.


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## hillfamilyloft

Interesting was an article about the Winners Cup Race in RPD last month. A guy to watch is Nick Kowalchuk. He was 3rd champion bird 1st breeders team. The irony is that many of his birds have the same Bob Kinney bloodine to some degree that my bird have. He crosses this bloodline in as do I. The bloodline has played well in the average speed, high points bird, reliability category. 

Nice race to enter. Great competition. The likes of Ganus, Crazy Al, Certain Loft, Terry Brooks, Mardis, Smith, etc. This will be a great test for your birds Warren. Funny to see how many of these fanciers enter 10 birds in their name and 10 in their wives, then 10 in a syndicate. Think they may be trying to buy the race? Warren I did not see an entry for you in the Flamingo. Are you in the race this year? I like to follow the races to see what cream rises to the top. May want to add some birds to the family some day. 

My bet is the Yorkies will be towards the top of Ace's team. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Interesting was an article about the Winners Cup Race in RPD last month. A guy to watch is Nick Kowalchuk. He was 3rd champion bird 1st breeders team. The irony is that many of his birds have the same Bob Kinney bloodine to some degree that my bird have. He crosses this bloodline in as do I. The bloodline has played well in the average speed, high points bird, reliability category.
> 
> Nice race to enter. Great competition. The likes of Ganus, Crazy Al, Certain Loft, Terry Brooks, Mardis, Smith, etc. This will be a great test for your birds Warren. Funny to see how many of these fanciers enter 10 birds in their name and 10 in their wives, then 10 in a syndicate. Think they may be trying to buy the race? Warren I did not see an entry for you in the Flamingo. Are you in the race this year? I like to follow the races to see what cream rises to the top. May want to add some birds to the family some day.
> 
> My bet is the Yorkies will be towards the top of Ace's team.
> 
> Randy


Hello Randy,

No Flamingo this year for SFL USA. The State of Florida through a state employee, reportedly has said verbally, that their state importation laws would not be enforced this year for the Flamingo. Which requires a vet inspection and certification. Technically, the Flamingo is operating in violation of State Importation law. The operators of the Flamingo, could offer no real assurances, that the law would not be enforced. If some bureaucrat decided to enforce the law, then my entries could be destroyed along with every other bird. It was not a risk, we were willing to take. 

The Winner's Cup to us, looked like an opportunity to raise the bar in terms of competition. We decided to go with the Gold Standard, and may even participate in the special 400 mile race, following the Winner's Cup.

Just entering ten birds this year, was a big committment for us. I don't sell enough of those high priced birds, to afford the enty fees. What with shipping, perch fees, and capital fees, a 10 bird team is already around $6500 for a ten bird team !  I hope Ganus and the Crazy Al types put thirty birds a piece into these races, that makes the pot all the more sweeter. Perhaps I will fall flat on my face, or just perhaps like the last two years, I will take their money and laugh all the way to the bank !! 

If some day Randy, this creme here happens to rise to the top, and you decide to get some for yourself, I will make sure you get a special deal, just for putting up with me and my ego !!......


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## ace in the hole

Ok boys, 

I took them off the south south west line of flight today and released them 20 miles to the west. the heat and humidity took its tole on them today and the times were slower.

The top five today were,

#1 FM 5458 Bred by self from Hillfamilyloft's DRO 1366 & DRO 1349 This little hen has broken from the pack before and came in way ahead of the rest.

#2 KONA 254 Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT from LCC 801 a well bred Houben cock from D & K LOFTS & a Janssen hen YORK 836 bred by SFL.

#3 FM 6690 A club auction bird from Dennis Burk

#4 LM 1140 The other bird I have that was bred by Lansing Michigan's Ted Wade. The last training LM 1136 was the first bird in.

#5 FM 5465 Bred by Hillfamilylofts. This is one of the few short distance speed birds Randy sent me.

They will all just loft fly tomorrow.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

5465 is off of my Middle distance birds. I did not band the bird with the auction band because it was the less virile in the nest and I had one auction band left. Also the bird was I think a splash with a lot of white. I also banded this bird with a regular band because this pair has had good but not great results. The sire and dam are also cousins whos mother's are sisters. My thinking is better breeders than racers. Who knows this may be one of the key birds in the end. Sometimes it is a guessing game. The bloodline is 1/4 flor Engels, 1/4 Bob Kinney, 1/4 Calia Janssen, 1/8 Piet Valk, 1/8 Delbar. In otherwords a Hill mutt. I would like to see this blood do well. The dam is my best looking hen, a sister to my futurity winner, and the cock is a solid bird.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

1366 and 1349 is a solid breeding. 1366 and the sire of 1349 are brothers. The are both siblings to my equal first Alaska Race, and my 250 mile winner this year old birds. 1349 has a sibling that was 5th in an Idaho race upwards of 400 birds and also finished 28th in the Fred Campbell futurity. Another sibling was 43rd out of 350 birds in the same race. 1349 sire is also a sister to my futurity winner. 3/4 speed 1/4 middle distance is the offspring out of 1366 and 1349. I sent 1366 to Ace because he was a top shelf bird. Otherwise a dominant cock that took the top perch in the corner. When picking him pairs from my yearlings this is how I chose them for him. My four best breeding cocks own their breeding sections. The three yearling cocks I sent Ace, I literaly pulled off the top perches and sent him the hens they had picked. Not rocket science, but it works for me. The other two pair I sent him were to fill in holes in the bloodlines so all of my bloodlwas represented in his loft. My thoughts are if you give guy your culls, he will not do well and your reputation will be shot. 

This is also an opportunity to race a team representative of my loft. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

*One Week To The First Race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*The birds went 50 miles today.* 

*The first race will be about 95 miles for me.*

Todays top five are,

#1 FM 5485 *Bred by Larry Fatalski of Detroit*. This bird came in way ahead of the rest. Also, this bird was 4th fastest at 37.3 miles.

#2 FM 5411 *Bred by Richard Clark of Top Gun Loft in NC*. This bird also came home way ahead of it's group last training, but not quite as fast as the top five. He is a grand son to "Peeman's best red Janssen in the world" and his dam is a 2000 Ace pigeon.

#3 FM 5425 *Bred by Ace In The Hole Loft*. I am happy to see this bird here! This bird is out of my inbred De Keizer cock & line bred President hen. It is the only one of this pairing left on the team. I stocked the only cock bird, lost one probably to a wire on a night flight I had about two weeks ago, and the other was lost at 37.3 miles. If this bird does well out to Marion IN. (210 miles) I will stock it. I have been hopping to make these birds part of my foundation. Time will tell! 

#4 Kona 254 *Bred by Ace In The Hole Loft.* This bird was second fastest last training toss. It is out of two birds given to me by Ken Munson. They were Ken's LCC 801 DC Houben Cock and Smithfamilyloft's York 836 BB Hen.

#5 FM 5423 *Bred by self from Hillfamilyloft's DRO 1369 & DRO 1364.* This bird was also 5th fastest at the 37.3 mile toss.

Honorable metion goes to LM 1140 *Bred by Ted Wade of Lancing MI.* who was 4th fastest in the last training and came in 7th today. Also, FM 5465 *Bred by Randy Hill of Hillfamilyloft.* This bird came in 5th last training and arrived the 8th fastest today at 50 miles.

Ace


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## ezemaxima

Bird FM 5485.... looks to be a consistent bird. Something to watch.


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## ace in the hole

*Saturday is race day!!*

*We may have a race!*

The weather here has been bad for training, and I didn't think the birds were going to be ready. The birds went 50 miles Saturday in less than perfect conditions. Yesterday was the first chance after that to get them back out and they did not do well. The times were just way to slow. They were released at 35 miles.

Today was the test on weather or not they were going this weekend, and they passed. They went back to 35 and today they were up to 1372YPM.

The top three from each of the three groups and their times are as follows.

Group #1 at 1372 YPM

#1 FM 5450 *Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* from SFL's birds - YORK 620 & 830 This birds mate was lost Saturday at 50 miles and just came back 8:15 pm last night. That was his driving force today!!

#2 FM 5423 *Bred by SELF* from HILLFAMILYLOFTS. This bird has been in the top 5 all through the training.

#3 FM 5409 *Bred by Richard Clark / TOP GUN LOFT*. This bird is from one of Richard's top breeding pairs.


Group #2 at 1180 YPM

#1 FM 5406 *Bred By Richard Clark / TOP GON LOFT* From his top speed bird stock.

#2 FM 5465 *Bred by HILLFAMILYLOFTS.* This is another bird that has been in the top 5 all through the training.

#3 KONA 254 *Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* from Ken Munson's Houben Cock and SFL's York 836. Again, another bird that has been in the top 5 all through the training.

*Honorable mention!* #4 today was FM 5425 who is from My Keizer & Prez. This bird was also #3 at 50 miles. 


Group #3 at 1311 YPM.

#1 FM 5457 *Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT * From Ken Munson's Houben cock and SFL's York 836. This bird is now setting on four wooden eggs.

#2 FM 5462 *Bred by SELF* from HILLFAMILYLOFTS DRO 1369 & DRO 1364, brother to consistent FM 5423

#3 FM 5496 *Bred by HILLFAMILYLOFTS* This is one of my combine auction birds.

The birds that have been consistent through the training will be split between the A and the B race. Wish them luck Saturday.

ACE


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## Lovebirds

THIS Saturday? Well, good luck!! Of course we want an update as soon as the first bird hits the loft!! LOL


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## hillfamilyloft

It looks like they will be ready. The times are getting better. I think a lot of time is lost when the birds are circling and getting bearings. The weather plays a factor in this. Thus on shorter tosses the times are slower. A few passes over the release point get averaged in over longer distances and the times get better. Once the birds make a bee line home. 100 should be a good test for them. When I was a kid and did not know better. I dropped the birds at the end of the road, sent them 30 miles and then jumped them to 100. I do not remember how I did in the 100, but I won the 150 and 250 milers. Ace has had them to 50 and 35 numerous times. I think they will be just fine. 

The ones that break from the pack will be the ones to watch. My thoughts are that you will have a large drop of birds. I also think they will be near the top. Hey with Yorkies, Munson, Clark, and Hill birds, you can't go wrong. 

I am liking the sibling pair of Hill birds that you bred. The sire is a son of Buzz. Buzz is a brother to my futurity winner. He has also bred a 300 mile winner, a 205 mile bond winner, and other competitive birds. The Dam is off of Tiger my Engels cock crossed with my Bob Kinney blood. These hens breed good birds. Buzz bred to the Dam sister bred the 300 mile winner. The Dam of the Sire is out of Scott McCallister's bird that won the Snowbird classic. This is Vic Miller blood crossed with Vandevelde blood. Like to see the birds working it four generations deep. 

Your 35 and 50 mile birds may be different from your 100 mile birds. My thoughts are some birds slide in there that you have not seen before. I gave my picks. I am also liking the Yorkies and the Clark bird. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> *We may have a race!*
> 
> The weather here has been bad for training, and I didn't think the birds were going to be ready. The birds went 50 miles Saturday in less than perfect conditions. Yesterday was the first chance after that to get them back out and they did not do well. The times were just way to slow. They were released at 35 miles.
> 
> Today was the test on weather or not they were going this weekend, and they passed. They went back to 35 and today they were up to 1372YPM.
> 
> The top three from each of the three groups and their times are as follows.
> 
> Group #1 at 1372 YPM
> 
> #1 FM 5450 *Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* from SFL's birds - YORK 620 & 830 This birds mate was lost Saturday at 50 miles and just came back 8:15 pm last night. That was his driving force today!!
> 
> #2 FM 5423 *Bred by SELF* from HILLFAMILYLOFTS. This bird has been in the top 5 all through the training.
> 
> #3 FM 5409 *Bred by Richard Clark / TOP GUN LOFT*. This bird is from one of Richard's top breeding pairs.
> 
> 
> Group #2 at 1180 YPM
> 
> #1 FM 5406 *Bred By Richard Clark / TOP GON LOFT* From his top speed bird stock.
> 
> #2 FM 5465 *Bred by HILLFAMILYLOFTS.* This is another bird that has been in the top 5 all through the training.
> 
> #3 KONA 254 *Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* from Ken Munson's Houben Cock and SFL's York 836. Again, another bird that has been in the top 5 all through the training.
> 
> *Honorable mention!* #4 today was FM 5425 who is from My Keizer & Prez. This bird was also #3 at 50 miles.
> 
> 
> Group #3 at 1311 YPM.
> 
> #1 FM 5457 *Bred by ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT * From Ken Munson's Houben cock and SFL's York 836. This bird is now setting on four wooden eggs.
> 
> #2 FM 5462 *Bred by SELF* from HILLFAMILYLOFTS DRO 1369 & DRO 1364, brother to consistent FM 5423
> 
> #3 FM 5496 *Bred by HILLFAMILYLOFTS* This is one of my combine auction birds.
> 
> The birds that have been consistent through the training will be split between the A and the B race. Wish them luck Saturday.
> 
> ACE



I'm excited for both of you Randy and Ace ! Good Luck !


----------



## ace in the hole

*Todays Race*

Todays race was not released as planed at 95 miles. The weather was not good down there so the birds were moved 20 miles north. They were released from Jackson MI. about 75 miles for my birds.

The A Race went up at 10:00 am and the B Race at 10:30 am this morning. 

The A Race;

22 birds were sent. The first birds in for this race were two drops 1 minute apart. There were a total of 13 birds clocked from 11:38 & 11:40 am. It is now 2:30pm and 17 of the 22 are back.

I do not know if this will count as a race for me, the clock is not reading what it should be reading for an active race. It did clock the birds though so I will still know how they faired with the rest. 

For the loft, the top five in the *A race* were;

#1 FM 5495 *Bred by Randy hill, Hillfamilyloft *- time = about 1342 YPM.

#2 FM 5416 *Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft*

#3 LM 1140 *Bred by Ted Wade, Lansing MI.*

#4 FM 5409 *Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft*

#5 FM 5462 *Bred by Self from Hillfamilylofts birds paired by Randy Hill*


The *B Race*

There were six birds on the first drop. Just for Warren I will list all six!!

#1 FM 5457 *bred by Ace In The Hole Loft from Ken Munson's Houben & Warren's Smith's York 836.* This bird is setting 5 wooden eggs! It was hoter and the wind was picking up from the west. The time, about 1270 YPM. 

#2 FM 5484 *Bred by Larry Fatalski of Detroit MI.*

#3 FM 5493 *Bred by Randy Hill, Hillfamilylofts*

#4 FM 5425 *Bred by Ace In The Hole Loft* from my Keizer & Prez.

#5 FM 5412 *Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft*

#6 FM 5424 *Bred by Ace In The Hole Loft from SFL's YORK 620 & 830*

At this time out of the 17 sent to the B race 10 of them are in the loft now.

I will let you know how they did with the rest of the club. Although, I was told that because the race was so short we on the short end don't have a chance because the lofts on the long end will get better YPMs plus they are given time for over fly. 

I will update monday,

Ace


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## SmithFamilyLoft

What does the race schedule look like ? How many races, how many miles ?
How many lofts and birds are involved ? Where is your loft relative to all the other lofts in the race ? Looking forward to next week !


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## hillfamilyloft

One thought I was having is with a 10 race schedule and the last race being the auction race, do you race the auction birds all 10 races or do you skip them a few races so they do not get burned out. I am sure Ace has something in mind here. This many races will do a good job of selection. The schedule is also unique in how it is laid out. It allows for the opportunity to skip races and get the birds to distance. The schedule is also early testing the birds in the heat and humidity. 

The Albuquerque club races 8 races, but do not start until the 20 of September. They are still quite traditional in starting breeding the first of February. They also race their small Futurity the 6th race at 300 and then go back to 150 and 200. With your July 26th start, early winter breeding and Darkening play a part. 

I also find it interesting that your overfly guys are given time. I hear from many, including Renee, that an overfly is an advantage. To then give them a break seems unfair. They all as well as Ace average in the circling time at the first of the race. The last 10 to 20 they usually know where they are and make a bee-line home. Curious to see what everyones thoughts are here. I could see if overfly was over 40 miles or so. 

1300s for Young birds at 75 mile on their first race are respectable times. My thoughts are that the AU does not count races under 90 miles toward prizes. 

Good Job

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

hillfamilyloft said:


> One thought I was having is with a 10 race schedule and the last race being the auction race, do you race the auction birds all 10 races or do you skip them a few races so they do not get burned out. I am sure Ace has something in mind here. This many races will do a good job of selection. The schedule is also unique in how it is laid out. It allows for the opportunity to skip races and get the birds to distance. The schedule is also early testing the birds in the heat and humidity.
> 
> The Albuquerque club races 8 races, but do not start until the 20 of September. They are still quite traditional in starting breeding the first of February. They also race their small Futurity the 6th race at 300 and then go back to 150 and 200. With your July 26th start, early winter breeding and Darkening play a part.
> 
> I also find it interesting that your overfly guys are given time. I hear from many, including Renee, that an overfly is an advantage. To then give them a break seems unfair. They all as well as Ace average in the circling time at the first of the race. The last 10 to 20 they usually know where they are and make a bee-line home. Curious to see what everyones thoughts are here. I could see if overfly was over 40 miles or so.
> 
> 1300s for Young birds at 75 mile on their first race are respectable times. My thoughts are that the AU does not count races under 90 miles toward prizes.
> 
> Good Job
> 
> Randy


I think when he said they are given time for overfly, he meant because they are flying longer than he is, they get more time to get birds home. I don't know if that makes sense or not.....maybe someone else (Warren) can explain it better. I know what I'm saying, I just maybe don't explain it right. No one is "giving" anyone anything..........they just "get it" because they are longer. Damn, now I'm confused!!! LOL
Ace should get credit for 75 miles. That's the shortest distance the AU recognizes as a race for prizes. I know because our combine moved our first race station in order to accomodate the short flyers and make sure they are flying 75 miles.......which added 20 miles to our first race, so we now fly 180 miles for the first YB race instead of 160.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Thanks Renee. I thought it the case where they would not award anyone any time and that they just get the advantage for overfly. I have heard of people allowing some time for those with manual clocks. Not directly racing in 20 years, I have forgot a lot of details. 

Randy


----------



## ace in the hole

I can not tell you off hand how many birds and lofts will be in the races. We have one more club race and then we will be flying with the combine. I will do some checking and let you know what I find out.

This first race some of the club members did not ship. There birds will be going next week. I was told we had between 175 and 200 birds in these races this weekend. I will have a total Tomorrow.

As for your other questions Warren,

The race schedual

1 77 miles Today
2 130 mi
3 164 mi
4 211 mi
5 260 mi
6 285 - 290 mi I do not have the GPS on this one.
7 130 mi this is were we drop back.
8 211 mi
9 101 mi
10 323 mi This is the club and combine auction races (A & B)

My loft is located on the shorter end and a little east. If we have our normal west winds it will help me.

Randy, I will not be running the club and combine birds in every race. They will set out the 6th race and maybe the 8th as well. What are any of you thinking about this schedual and the best way to have these birds ready for the 323 mi auction races. If any of you would work this differently I'm listening.

This race for me was just over 77 mi. putting the A teams speed at 1380.21 and the B team at 1309. I did talk to one of the club members 8 or 10 miles shorter than me and we both got our B birds in the same minute. I think they did well. We clock out Tomorrow night. I'll let you know after that how they really did. I will also find out what I can about the over fly and how that works.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Overfly explained by a Math Teacher. 

Your distance 100 miles

Your Competitors distance 120 miles

Overfly has an advantage in a few ways. The most obvious is the orientation time it takes the birds at liberation. The time wasted getting their direction. Lets for explaination sake say it takes 10 minutes for the birds to orient. In other words they go no where in 10 minutes. 

Speed is measured as a ratio or fraction distance over time or Distance/Time or Distance divided by time. If the birds flew 100 miles in 100 minutes we would have 100 miles/ 100 minutes or 1 mile per min. We will assume this is what our birds and are competitors are doing. Yours fly the 100 miles in 100 minutes theirs go 120 miles in 120 minutes, both 1 mile a minute. 

Now converting miles to yards. There is 5280 feet in one mile, 3 feet in a yard. The math looks like 1mile x 5280 feet / 3 = 1760 yards in a mile. So if our bird are going a mile a minute or 60 miles an hour we have them traveling 1760 yards per minute. This would be a fast race. 

Now how to factor in the overfly. Remember the birds for the first 10 minutes circled the release point, or did 0 yards per min. 

Thus your birds then took 110 minutes to go 100 miles and your competitors took 130 minutes to go 120 miles. 

The math:
You speed = 100mile x 1760 yds / 110 minutes or 1600 yds per minute

competitor speed = 120 miles x 1760 yds / 130 min or 1625 yds per minute

Your birds flew equally fast, but did not average the same yards per minute as did your competitors. 

This brings in to account how the birds are settled at the release point, how long they are there etc. A long ender might pull up to the release point, do four or five donuts and then open the gates. A short ender might sit at the release point for an hour or so. Something to think about. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Another not so obvious advantage of overfly is as follows. I will start with what a flier in Albuquerque was doing while training his birds. He has a 40 mile overfly. This is when overfly becomes a dissadvantage at times because of the extra distance on the birds and the fact that they may tire in longer races, thus go slower the last 40 and average less yards per minute. He was at the loft of the fancier with the most birds. He was single tossing his birds on the hill above the loft for the 40 mile trainning toss. He wanted his birds to know how to find their way howe from the other fliers loft. This way the birds make a bee-line home. His thinking is that if he has pack fliers they will follow the majority to this loft. Then he wants them to individually know how to bee-line home fast from here. 

Knowing the birds will orient and most likely not take a direct path home they will average slower speeds from release to the competitors loft, then his birds will from the competitors loft to his. This way he will average better yards per minute for the total distance. The competitors loft is on his line of flight, so they will fly over the loft or close to it. 


So you overfliers might want to toss from a loft shorter and on-line from you. At least in the neighborhood. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Now for Ace on the Short end with favorable winds we have to think then of the geometry of a triange. Think of liberation to long end loft as the hypotenuse of the triangle. This is the shortest distance home for his birds, but the longest side of the triangle. Think of Ace's loft as a side of the triange, shorter than the hypotenuse, but also a direct line home from him. If all the birds follow Ace's path because that is where the wind takes them, then thy must fly the other leg back to their loft, the other side of the triange. Thus the competitors line of flight is not direct to his loft, but yours is. 

So if you are short end, but favorable wind, hope for a nice breeze on race day toward or cross wind of your loft. Long enders want a direct tail wind or no wind to their loft. 

In the long end Albuquerque flier he has overfly advantage, but not wind advantage. I am looking for the Eastward long-enders to have the advantage. 

I am sure their I racers who buy in a particular location to gain an advantage. 

Someone should write a computer program to factor in all advantages and then handicap a race. This is also something to think about when obtaining stock. Does the guy that wins every week have the best race stock or the best advantage?

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

I raced with the Grand Juction guys last year. The loft I flew out of had a 60 mile overfly and was upwind about 30 miles. He also was forced to fly over an 11k foot mesa while his competitors flew up a nice valley. His birds started at 160 miles. This is a situation where overfly and loft possition was not an advantage. Suprisingly he won races. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

*Race Update*

OK, I messed up and am quite mad at my self.  The club members are happy though because they didn't get there buts kicked by the new guy. Well at least not on paper.

I had a training in my clock when I took it in so it didn't do whatever and they disqualified my birds from the race.

Here are the true results of these birds first race.

*A Race = 169 birds and 11 lofts*
Dave Boudro took 1st through 3rd at 1398.987 ypm to 1396.029 ypm, 3 on the drop.

*Ace In The Hole Loft *took 4th through 16th. at 1380.210 ypm to 1349.035 ypm, 13 birds in two drops less than a minute apart. 

The next bird came in at 1313.050 ypm. This is the bird the sheet shows as the 4th place bird. 

*B Race = 164 birds 11 lofts*

*Ace In The Hole Loft * Took 1st through 6th at 1308.795 ypm to 1292.820 ypm, 6 on the drop

The next bird by John Smith came in at 1290.304 ypm. This is the bird shown as the winner of the B race.

The birds are just going to have to do a repeat next week. I am just so mad at myself!! This puts me out of the running for average speed and I don't know what else.  


Ace


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Just a warm up.....*

How and what happened with your clock ?  If you don't understand what you did wrong, and do the same thing next week, well...you just might do it all over again. And shame on your club race secretary, you would think someone would have reviewed your clock. If you are using an M-1, you can have training going on, and a couple different races all at one time...how could you "Mess It Up" ?!  It was not done correctly when you shipped your birds, who ever entered the data, could not have done it correctly. 

Oh well, after this experience, I am sure you won't do whatever it was you were suppose to have done.....


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*FM 5457 wins 1st Place*



ace in the hole said:


> ........
> 
> Here are the true results of these birds first race.
> 
> *Ace In The Hole Loft * Took 1st through 6th at 1308.795 ypm to 1292.820 ypm, 6 on the drop
> 
> The next bird by John Smith came in at 1290.304 ypm. This is the bird shown as the winner of the B race.
> 
> 
> 
> Ace


So Ace, if I understand you correctly then, your clock mishap aside, so in your very 1st race, you placed 1st Place in your club "B" race !!! Congradulations !! 

From your previous post:

The B Race

There were six birds on the first drop. Just for Warren I will list all six!!

#1 *FM 5457 *bred by Ace In The Hole Loft from Ken Munson's Houben & Warren's Smith's York 836. This bird is setting 5 wooden eggs! It was hoter and the wind was picking up from the west. The time, about 1270 YPM. 


So this FM 5457 was your big winner !!! 

Very interesting......


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## ace in the hole

My clock is the new Express G2. For this one I will only blame myself. The clock will be right next week!!!

Yes, Warren you are right. FM 5457 was #1 in the B race. If you go back to my earlyer post on the race my top six are the clubs top six. So Warren don't forget #6 FM 5424.

Seeing how this thread is Hillfamilyloft's test birds I should mention that 4th place in the A race and first in the loft was FM 5495 bred by Randy Hill and 3rd place in the B race was taken by 5493 bred by Randy Hill.

I am looking forward to next week and what I'm going to call the *Frankenmuth Racing Pigeon Club Stomp.*


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## ace in the hole

Here is another one I need to mention. If you have been keeping up with this thread you have seen the name Larry Fatalski several times. He is a top flyer from Detroit MI. From him I recieved 3 young birds. 

Not only do I still have all three of them on the team, but all three of them came in the top 10% in the club yesterday. The two in the A race FM 5485 and FM 5483 took 10th and 15th. FM 5484 was in the B race and came in 2nd place. These are birds Larry sent me for the 323 mile race, so I think we will see much more of them as we get to the distance.

Also a plug for Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft. who had 4 birds in the top 10% of the club. As for Richard's long distance birds! I had FM 5418 come in 18th place in the B race, the first bird outside of the top 10%, and 5407 in the A race. Both of these birds came in alone and flew around and around the loft like they had just come from a five mile toss. I will be watching them at the distance as well.

Ace


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## whitesnmore

*FM 5457 & Kona 254*

Ace, Are these nest mate birds? I noticed these birds have been consistant and was wondering if they were nest mates. This particular breeding had produced me multiple diploma winners last year and their children are now in my breeding program. We start our first race this Sunday and my airlines is 117 miles. Good luck and keep us posted
Ken Munson
K&D Lofts


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## hillfamilyloft

Welcome to the thread Ken.

With Ken, Warren and Myself on the thread, all with an interest, it would be ok with me if we changed it to the Ace Test Birds thread. Clock issues aside, I see some birds that are developing very well. I think Ace is developing a strong team of young birds from numerous fanciers. I foresee him having success with the group of birds he has acquired. 

Good luck to all and welcome to the thread. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Hi Ken,

These two birds are siblings, but not nest mates. I lost 5457's brother and KONA 254 hatched solo.

Just a quick note on the first races for Ace In The Hole Lofts. Between the A and the B race I sent 39 birds. There was a total of 333 birds sent to the two races. 17 birds from each race made the top 10 %. That is a total of 34 birds in the top 10%. 19 of the 39 birds sent to the races by Ace In The Hole Lofts made the top 10%. That puts the Ace In The Hole Birds at over 50% of the birds in the top 10%. As well as being 50% of the birds sent to the races by Ace In The Hole Lofts. 

WOW!!   If only they could keep that up ! ! !

As for there continued training. Yesterday they went 33.5 miles at 1300+ YPM. Today they went back to 33.5 miles and came in faster, some of them over 1500 YPM. Tomorrow and thursday if the weather is good they will go 45 miles. The plan is to keep them in the air for one hour. At this piont they are getting back from the 33.5 in less than 40 minutes.

Ace


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## learning

Congratulations Ace, You are obviously doing all the right things. Keep it up.

Dan


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## ace in the hole

Well, the birds are basketed for the race tomorrow. There are 22 birds in the A race and 21 birds in the B race.

LM 1136 after being missing for about three weeks came back Monday. In the 45 mile toss yesterday she was the first bird in. She is with them tonight.

FM 5494 bred from Randy Hill's stock and one of my combine auction birds showed up today after being missing from the same training toss as LM 1136.
If he is ready he will go next week. If not he will be held back untill the 7th race when we drop back to 130 miles. I also kept back 5493 bred by Randy Hill. This bird just laid it's second egg today. She should fly good for me next week, flying back to her first eggs.

I will give you a report after the first bird from each race has come in tomorrow.

PS. My clock is set right this time!!!!!!!

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Well, the birds are basketed for the race tomorrow. There are 22 birds in the A race and 21 birds in the B race.
> 
> LM 1136 after being missing for about three weeks came back Monday. In the 45 mile toss yesterday she was the first bird in. She is with them tonight.
> 
> FM 5494 bred from Randy Hill's stock and one of my combine auction birds showed up today after being missing from the same training toss as LM 1136.
> If he is ready he will go next week. If not he will be held back untill the 7th race when we drop back to 130 miles. I also kept back 5493 bred by Randy Hill. This bird just laid it's second egg today. She should fly good for me next week, flying back to her first eggs.
> 
> I will give you a report after the first bird from each race has come in tomorrow.
> 
> PS. My clock is set right this time!!!!!!!
> 
> Ace


How long is your race this week? I personally would not have sent a bird that had been missing for three weeks to a race. That's just my opinion though. A 45 mile toss with your loft mates and a race that is however long it is, is two totally different ball games. Guess we'll see. I may be wrong........but it won't change what I would do........


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## ace in the hole

Hi Renee,

This race is 130 miles. This bird was not in the condition a bird would be in if it had been on it's own in the wild. It was not thin and had no lice. It looked like someone had her in their loft. Before she came up missing she was one I knew I could count on. I would not have sent her if I didn't think she was comming back.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

We have birds! The A race was released at 8am this morning. They had a head wind and it made for a slow race. My first bird in was at 11:45:01. I do not think this will be a winning time at 1018.85 YPM.

Top 5 to the loft from the A race were,

#1 FM 5496 bred by Randy Hill, *Hillfamilyloft's*

#2 FM 5414 bred by Richard Clark, *Top Gun Loft*

#3 KONA 251 bred by *Ace In The Hole Loft*

#4 FM 5465 bred by Randy Hill, *Hillfamilyloft's*

#5 FM 5418 bred by Richard Clark, *Top Gun Loft*

The B race was faster and I had 10 birds on the drop plus 4 others with them. I did not have 10 birds clock as they should. We had a hard rain last night and I should have removed the standing water from above the aviaries. Only a few traped right away. The rest had a drink and set on the loft. The birds were released at 9am and my first bird clocked at 12:15:49, at 1172.70 YPM. This I think may be a winning time.

The top 5 to the loft from the B race were ( ARE YOU READY KEN & WARREN ),

#1 FM 5457 bred by *Ace In the Hole Loft *from Houben 801 of K&D Loft and York 836 from SFL's. This bird was 1st to the loft and 1st in the B race last week.

#2 FM 5491 bred by Randy Hill, *Hillfamilyloft.* This bird was 9th to the loft and 12th in the A race last week.

#3 FM 5416 bred by Richard Clark, *Top Gun Lofts*. This bird was 2nd to the loft and 5th in the A race last week.

#4 FM 5474 bred by Ken Munson,* K&D Loft*

#5 FM 5424 bred by *Ace In The Hole Loft *out of YORK 620 & York 830 from SFL's. This bird was 6th to the loft and 6th in the B race last week.

I will let you know how they faired with the rest of the club after clock out tomorrow night.

Ace.


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## Lovebirds

Appears that you had a pretty good day? All the birds make it in? I DO HOPE you won the B race. Do you know the other speeds or times? Heck, you might have won the A race too..........never can tell, unless you already know of course. The first race we ever won was 960 YPM.........I had no idea until clock opening. Needless to say, that was a bad, slow, race that day.


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## ace in the hole

No, the birds did not all make it back yet. At dark I was still out seven birds. I have had three of them come back this morning already, but only two of them made it to the trap!! The other a BC landed on the loft and was picked off the loft by a hawk before it could trap. One of the two that did trap this morning was LM 1136. She was late, but she did make it.

Two of the birds I am still missing from the A race are FM 5423 & KONA 254. These are two birds that have been doing real good. It is possable they had eggs in them. Two of the birds that came home from the race yesterday laid eggs last night. I need to get better at being able to feel the egg in a hen that is getting ready to lay.

As for the race and times. I have only found three members of the club that would even give me any times and I don't know how true they are. If their times were right I should be close on the A race ( leading them by 5 to 10 YPM). Fingers crossed! Of four lofts times I know of for the B race I am leading the best of them by 90 to 95 YPM. WE will see tonight!

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> No, the birds did not all make it back yet. At dark I was still out seven birds. I have had three of them come back this morning already, but only two of them made it to the trap!! The other a BC landed on the loft and was picked off the loft by a hawk before it could trap. One of the two that did trap this morning was LM 1136. She was late, but she did make it.
> 
> Two of the birds I am still missing from the A race are FM 5423 & KONA 254. These are two birds that have been doing real good. It is possable they had eggs in them. Two of the birds that came home from the race yesterday laid eggs last night. I need to get better at being able to feel the egg in a hen that is getting ready to lay.
> 
> As for the race and times. I have only found three members of the club that would even give me any times and I don't know how true they are. If their times were right I should be close on the A race ( leading them by 5 to 10 YPM). Fingers crossed! Of four lofts times I know of for the B race I am leading the best of them by 90 to 95 YPM. WE will see tonight!
> 
> Ace



Don't you think that's just the silliest thing? Not telling what time you clocked a bird or telling a lie when asked? That just IRKS me to no end.......like you can change it!!!  It is what it is...........we've got members like that too. I think it's just childish............I hope you kicked their butts, but if you did, they'll NEVER tell you their clocking times and will probably stop answering the phone too. Just confirms that pigeon folks are a crazy bunch.....
I'm sorry to hear that a hawk got one of the birds. 
As far as your hens getting ready to lay............I can't "feel" either and tell. But on basketing day, I try to spend a little time in the loft just watching the birds. Especially while feeding them. If I see a cock driving his hen to the point that she can hardly eat, then I play it safe and just keep her home. Sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right.......I've taken birds to shipping and had them lay an egg in the shipping crate. I get that bird out of the basket and take it back home. (Just FYI...........any bird that's taken out of the crate has it's chip ring removed and the race secretary takes it until clock opening. Except if it's one of our birds, since I"m the race secretary, then someone else takes it home. )
So......can't wait to hear how you do. GOOD LUCK!!


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## hillfamilyloft

ace in the hole said:


> We have birds! The A race was released at 8am this morning. They had a head wind and it made for a slow race. My first bird in was at 11:45:01. I do not think this will be a winning time at 1018.85 YPM.
> 
> Top 5 to the loft from the A race were,
> 
> #1 FM 5496 bred Randy Hill, *Hillfamilyloft's*
> by
> #2 FM 5414 bred by Richard Clark, *Top Gun Loft*
> 
> #3 KONA 251 bred by *Ace In The Hole Loft*
> 
> #4 FM 5465 bred by Randy Hill, *Hillfamilyloft's*
> 
> #5 FM 5418 bred by Richard Clark, *Top Gun Loft*
> 
> The B race was faster and I had 10 birds on the drop plus 4 others with them. I did not have 10 birds clock as they should. We had a hard rain last night and I should have removed the standing water from above the aviaries. Only a few traped right away. The rest had a drink and set on the loft. The birds were released at 9am and my first bird clocked at 12:15:49, at 1172.70 YPM. This I think may be a winning time.
> 
> The top 5 to the loft from the B race were ( ARE YOU READY KEN & WARREN ),
> 
> #1 FM 5457 bred by *Ace In the Hole Loft *from Houben 801 of K&D Loft and York 836 from SFL's. This bird was 1st to the loft and 1st in the B race last week.
> 
> #2 FM 5491 bred by Randy Hill, *Hillfamilyloft.* This bird was 9th to the loft and 12th in the A race last week.
> 
> #3 FM 5416 bred by Richard Clark, *Top Gun Lofts*. This bird was 2nd to the loft and 5th in the A race last week.
> 
> #4 FM 5474 bred by Ken Munson,* K&D Loft*
> 
> #5 FM 5424 bred by *Ace In The Hole Loft *out of YORK 620 & York 830 from SFL's. This bird was 6th to the loft and 6th in the B race last week.
> 
> I will let you know how they faired with the rest of the club after clock out tomorrow night.
> 
> Ace.


To give you an idea of what Hill birds are doing what. In this race you find my tough race birds doing the best. This is my more reliable family of birds. Also these birds are different than those that came in the top last week. The head wind is in my opinion what made this different. Now for how closely related these birds are to each other. 

5465 and 5491 are siblings out of the same nest. Different numbers because I designated 5491 for the auction race. 5496 is the brother of their Dam. He is thus their uncle. These birds are down from the "08" Bob Kinney bird I talk about. 5496 is also a brother of the bird that won the Grand Junction Futurity. This was an average speed five race series. I am also finding the cocks fly better than the hens. The hens breed as well, but do not seem to fly as well. He should get stronger with distance. They also do better in tougher races. 

Ace also has a pair of breeders "Woody" and "Katlin" that are related to these birds. "Woody" is a sibling to 65 and 91, while "Katlin" is a sister of 5496. 65 and 91 are 1/4 Engels, 1/4 Bob Kinney, 1/4 Janssen, 1/8 Vic Miller and 1/8 Piet Valk. In other words, Middle distance mutts. 96 is all of the above without the Engels bloodline. 

My thoughts are these birds are similar long middle distance to Richard Clark's birds. These birds really showed in the head wind race. They out did the speed birds here even know it was a short race.


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## hillfamilyloft

This bunch of birds is looking like an all star team. Ace did good to round up some very good blood to start a loft. He pooled some fine birds from Richard Clark, Warren's blood, Ken Munson, and some local birds that do very well. This is similar to what I did starting a loft. I found the best I could. I think if you want to get serious and to the top fast this is the route to go. I know it is early in the season, but Ace is off to a good start. Good birds and the hard work is paying off. Learning is taking a similar route in establishing his loft. Get good birds first. 

Many fanciers start with culls and hand me downs and gets discouraged early when the birds do not do well. We are all proof that you do not have to go to Valenzuela or Ganus to establish a good loft. Some of us have this blood in our loft, yes, but not all of us broke the bank establishing a good family of birds. Find birds off a fancier that wins, has confidence in their birds, and is helpful. In helping Ace establish his family of birds, I am only doing what is right. Passing on the good deeds that were done to me. 

Randy


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## ohiogsp

Ace what town are you in? Do you fly south? What was your release point? We could very well be flying a simular course. Yesterday was a tough one. When my 3rd and 4th birds came in they brought 9 race birds with electronic bands with them. We don't use them here and they sat down then took off. They were headed north up to michigan but don't know who's race it would have been. I think we shoud start a national data base that has everyones race times and release points on it. Obvoiusly we are coliding with other races and during training also. A guy here had 90 birds and he tossed them training and hit a race from michigan it was a 600 mile old bird race and his birds went with them. He now has 15 and he got some back from some of the flyers in the club the race was from.


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## Lovebirds

ohiogsp said:


> Ace what town are you in? Do you fly south? What was your release point? We could very well be flying a simular course. Yesterday was a tough one. When my 3rd and 4th birds came in they brought 9 race birds with electronic bands with them. We don't use them here and they sat down then took off. They were headed north up to michigan but don't know who's race it would have been. I think we shoud start a national data base that has everyones race times and release points on it. Obvoiusly we are coliding with other races and during training also. A guy here had 90 birds and he tossed them training and hit a race from michigan it was a 600 mile old bird race and his birds went with them. He now has 15 and he got some back from some of the flyers in the club the race was from.


I've been saying this for YEARS!! It would SO simple to find the clubs/combines that are flying in your area and try to avoid each other if possible. Tell the old guys that though and see what their reaction is. I'll tell you almost word for word what they will say. "It doesn't matter. A GOOD bird will not get with the wrong group and go in the wrong direction".......
I've heard it a million times. You can't tell me that 2000 birds flying from NC to FL and 300 birds flying from GA to NC and VA will hit and only the "bad" birds will get turned around. That's BS. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There's too many that care about WINNING only.....if all but one of their birds "goes the wrong way" but that one bird wins the race.......they do not care.........


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## ace in the hole

Well, I have the weekly race report in my hand!

But first to answer a few questions that were asked by Ohio. Our club is located in Saginaw County, north of Flint Michigan. We fly southwest. This race was from Angola IN. Next weekend we will be flying from Fort Wayne IN.
(163 miles for my birds). I would say your birds ran into the birds from the Detroit club.

Ace


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## whitesnmore

*Congrats on a good race*

Ace, Another fine race by anyones standards. You are proof of what someone just coming back into the sport can do with hard work and the proper foundation. Just keep the birds healthy and dont overtrain or make some of the "rookie" mistakes we have all made and you should continue winning. Be prepared for the "OOOPS" week though as it can make you very frustrated after two or more great weeks. By the way, if you continue mopping butt up there you are bound to make enemies. If you get kicked out let me know and we will make room for you here in chicagoland.
Ken


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## ace in the hole

Now to cover something Randy Hill said about the birds I am flying and were they came from. I did not pay thousands of dollars for the birds I have. I paid maybe $500.00 for shipping charges to get them here. I had several people help me get started with birds. Just by talking with these people and asking them for help in getting birds for this team. I only had one person that I asked for help flat out turn me down, but I still found a way to get his stock in my loft. I ended up with so many good birds I had to tell a few of them to please send me fewer birds than planed. 

There are two people who helped me to the point that I could never thank them enough and they are still helping me in so many ways. These two men are Randy Hill, Hillfamilyloft's and Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft. The others I need to thank here are Ken Munson K&D Loft, Larry Fatalski of Detroit MI., Ed Minvielle (Charles Siegel's & Son Inc.), Ted Wade of Lansing MI.

Without their help I would not be able to give you results like I did for last weeks race or results like I have been stalling on giving you for this week.

For these reasons I would like to state here that I will be helping one new flyer next year with birds and help in any way I can. This is a dying sport and it is up to us to keep it alive.

If you want to know what it feels like to help a new flyer in this way ask Randy Hill or Richard Clark, or better yet do it yourself next year as I will.

*Again, for all of you that have helped me,* *THANK YOU *

Ace


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## ace in the hole

OK, Here is the race report. Sorry, no great results here for the A race.

*A Race - 130 miles - 185 birds - 14 lofts - Winning speed 1153 YPM*
Ace In The Hole Loft took 32nd & 33rd place at 1018 YPM

What happened? I don't know??? They came in late and all singles.

*B Race - 130 miles - 186 birds - 14 lofts*
Ace In The Hole Loft took,

1st FM 5457 two weeks in a row!!!!!!!!! ACE 
2nd FM 5491 HILL
3rd FM 5416 CLARK
4th FM 5474 MUNSON
5th FM 5424 ACE
6th ---------
7th FM 5495 HILL
8th FM 5409 CLARK
9th KK 623 ALDRICH - combine auction bird
10th -------
11th -------
12th -------
13th -------
14th -------
15th -------
16th -------
17th FM 5417 CLARK
18th LM 1140 WADE
19th -------

There were 19 birds in the top 10%. 10 of them ACE birds. What still really burns me is the fact that all ten of these birds were in one drop and because I over fed them and didn't remove some standing water from an area on the loft the birds did not all trap as they should. Insead they drank and sat on the loft. The winning speed was 1170.740 YPM. The next loft to get a bird had a speed of 1132.488 YPM. If it weren't for my dumb mistakes they would have come in 1st through 10th place.

I know get over it and learn from my mistakes right. That's ok, it's time to put this weeks race behind me and start getting ready for next weeks race.

Ace


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## Bluecheckard

Great job ACE and thanks for keeping as updated on your races!!!


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## hillfamilyloft

Just wanted to let everyone know that the results of the races are now up on the AU page in the national data base.

www.pigeon.org

National Data Base
Frankenmuth club.

http://ndb.phpwebhosting.com/race_reports.php?Org=Frankenmuth RPC&DateRace=0&season=2008yb

Randy


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## ohiogsp

We fly right by each other. I even train to fort wayne. Our course goes right through fort wayne. Our race this week was from logansport and if the birds were on line fly just north of fort wayne on the way home. Our birds will probably be crossing every week now cause we fly more west than south. Small world.


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## ace in the hole

This week because of the weather we are flying a Sunday race. I have 18 birds in the A race and 17 birds in the B race. I only held a few back. I was just informed today that this Fort Wayne station is the worst station we fly. Our club has more losses from this station than any other station we fly.

We will be continuing on a SW line. Our release points after Fort Wayne IN. 163 mi. will be Marion IN. 210 mi., Castleton IN. 260 mi., Monrovia IN. (about 285 or 290 mi.) and Terra Haute IN. 323 miles.

Hey Ohio, Let me know if you get any of my birds with your. lol

Ace


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## ohiogsp

ace in the hole said:


> Hey Ohio, Let me know if you get any of my birds with your. lol
> 
> Ace


Will do and vise versa.


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## ace in the hole

*My focus and goal for this week was to win both the A and B races.*
All I can say is, Oh my god did the Hillfamilyloft's birds stomp the Frankenmuth Racing Pigeon Club in the A race! We have yet to see about the combine, but it is looking good!

The A Race - 135 birds - 12 lofts - 164.306 miles - Winds NNE 11-20 mph. 
(Released from the SE.)

#1 FM 5453 at 1285.809 YPM. Bred by Ace In The Hole Lofts from Hillfamilyloft's stock.

#2 FM 5493 Bred by Randy Hill, Hillfamilyloft

#3 FM 5414 Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft

#4 A 28046 Bred by Ed Minvielle, Siegel's Lofts

#5 FM 5418 Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft

#6 Now's the kicker! The first bird not from Ace In The Hole Lofts - 1164 YPM. - Time To Win - 23.37 minutes and he is less than one mile farther from the release point.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The B Race - 138 birds - 12 lofts - 164.360 miles - Winds NNE 11-20 mph.

#1 FM 5416 at 1218 YPM. Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft

#2 -----
#3 -----
#4 -----
#5 -----

#6 FM 5457 This is the first race this bird has been in that it didn't win!! Bred by Ace In The Hole Lofts

#7 FM 5406 Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft

#8 FM 5424 Bred by Ace In The Hole Lofts

#9 -----
#10 -----

#11 FM 5407 Bred by Richard Clark, Top Gun Loft

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There were 14 birds in the top 10% in each races.

I love it when a plan comes together,

Ace


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## lefty1991

nice going ace with results like this week after week you really will be the ace in your club


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## hillfamilyloft

Interesting here is that my top birds are from the same family once again. The difference being my family that is not realted to last weeks best birds. This bunch is from my speed birds. The key to this family is a brother sister foundation from full Vic Miller Birds, Ed and Mrs N. One crossed with a full Janssen hen and the other with my Ikon/Magic Star grandson. 

Mrs N is the dam to 5493 and grandmother to 5453. She is also the grandmother to the 21st bird in the A race. 

5493 and the 21st bird are also grandaughters of Ed. 

This family has bred me some good birds. Equal first Alaska race - 6th to trap, First at 250m along with numerous in the top 10%. This bloodline is strogest up to about 250. A sister to 5493 was first at 125 miles and winning average speed in the Grand Junction futurity before she was lost. 

What is concearning me and what Ace and I do not talk about is the missing birds. There are a few key birds not back from the race yet. The weather has been less than disirable. 

One thing I find a weakness in my birds is how they fly in foul weather. Also something to look at is how well Richard Clark's birds are doing. I think the difference here is that he has many years on the Hill birds. When we talk about selection this is something that time can gain you an advantage. Richard flies in more of a similar environment. Hot and humid with more rain. The hill birds have been desert and mountain birds for the last four years. Dry air and higher altitudes. My losses have been higher than Richards. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Lefty

The birds Ace is going to send you are from this same family. They are off of a Son of Ed and Charlotte. Charlotte's four grandparents are out of the Janssen brother's loft. Her parents are Ganus birds. Ed is a Vic Miller bird. 1366 is the birds sire. He is brother to the equal first Alaska bird and a 250 mile winner by 9 minutes. 

The Dam 1349 is off of a Brother to 1366 and a sister to my Grand Junction futurity winner. Thus a grandson of Ed and Charlotte. 1349 is a sister to the 28th and 43rd place finishers out of 360 birds in the Fred Campbell futurity in Idaho. The 28th place bird was also 5th against over 500birds in a club race. 

PM me and I will send you a pedigree for the birds. The family has done real well for me. They should help you win some races. I started my loft with 12 birds. Four of those birds founded this family and they are still with me. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

*Email from a club member*

I just had to pass this on to you. This is the email I recieved this morning from one of the Frankenmuth Racing Pigeon Club members.

*CONGRATS ON OPENING ANOTHER CAN OF WHOOP ASS ON THEM GUYS. SOMEBODY SAID "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS GUY DOING". SOMEBODY ELSE SAID "WHATEVER HE'S DOING HE'S DOING IT RIGHT". SOMEBODY ELSE SAID "HIS BIRDS FEEL LIKE A MILLION BUCKS WHEN YOU PUT THEM IN". YOU GOT THEIR ATTENTION-KEEP IT UP! *


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## bloodlines_365

hey all i can say........ NICE!!!!  it means they want more whopping!!!!! :eek


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## ace in the hole

Hey, just to add to that wopping. Our combine is split into a North and South section. I just found out My birds took 1st North section in both the A & B races.

I will have this weeks club report for you late tomorrow night. What I can tell you now is Hillfamilyloft's birds took 1st and 2nd in my loft for the A race now two weeks in a row. FM 5465 was first in at about 1305 YPM.

In my loft the B race was dominated by Top Gun Loft's birds, taking 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the loft. The 1st B bird to the loft came in at about 1250 YPM. 4th to the loft was FM 5416 last weeks club & combine winner. Here is FM 5416's race record to date. To the loft - 2nd, 3rd, 1st and this week 4th. In the club - 5th, 3rd, 1st club & combine and this week hopefully 4th. 

FM 5457 was held this week. She has 1st, 1st, 2nd to the loft and 1st, 1st, 6th in the club.

Let's all hope for a good report tomorrow night!!

Ace


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## Bluecheckard

Wow that's a really great performance!!! Good luck on your race tomorrow and kick some butt


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## ace in the hole

*Ok Bluecheckard,*
*BUTTS KICKED!!!!*
*_________________________________*


*A Race - 210.856 miles

1st FM 5465 Hillfamilyloft's bird
2nd FM 5462 Bred from Hillfamilyloft's birds
3rd FM 5424 Ace In The Hole Loft's bird
--------
10th A 28046 Siegel's "Super Schellen's" Family 
--------
13th FM 5418 Top Gun Loft's bird

B Race

1st FM 5406 Top Gun Loft's bird
2nd FM 5403 Top Gun Loft's bird
3rd FM 5415 Top Gun Loft's bird *(FM 5416's nest mate)*
4th FM 5416 Top Gun Loft's bird
5th KK 623 Combine auction bird from club member Kim Aldrich

I am shocked!!

Ace*


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## Bluecheckard

ace in the hole said:


> *Ok Bluecheckard,*
> *BUTTS KICKED!!!!*
> *_________________________________*
> 
> 
> *A Race - 210.856 miles
> 
> 1st FM 5465 Hillfamilyloft's bird
> 2nd FM 5462 Bred from Hillfamilyloft's birds
> 3rd FM 5424 Ace In The Hole Loft's bird
> --------
> 10th A 28046 Siegel's "Super Schellen's" Family
> --------
> 13th FM 5418 Top Gun Loft's bird
> 
> B Race
> 
> 1st FM 5406 Top Gun Loft's bird
> 2nd FM 5403 Top Gun Loft's bird
> 3rd FM 5415 Top Gun Loft's bird *(FM 5416's nest mate)*
> 4th FM 5416 Top Gun Loft's bird
> 5th KK 623 Combine auction bird from club member Kim Aldrich
> 
> I am shocked!!
> 
> Ace*


WOW!!!!! Congratulation Ace and you surely did kicked thier BUTTS...


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## hillfamilyloft

Well Ace has surpassed my goal. I wanted him to win a race with a Hill bird. When you send someone birds or breeders you are always aprehensive that they may not come through for the fancier that recieved them. I think the thing I am most happy about is that out of the five breeding pairs that I sent Ace, two have produced top birds. A 1st and a 2nd. 

At first I was thinking that this guy must think I sent him my culls. My worst 10 birds. Well four of them have proved their worth. My mentor told me when he stocked my loft, that his culls were better than most peoples birds. Then he selected me 12 birds off his best pairs. The second place bird this week is 4th generation off his best birds, the first place winner 3rd generation. 

I think it all comes down to the quality of the methods and the quality of the birds. Many a fancier has put numerous years in the development of the birds that Ace is flying. My mark on the birds is minimal. I am very impressed with the birds of Richard Clark and how reliable and fast they are. This shows you what years of selection and testing can do for you. A high % of the birds he sent are quality. This is what one should strive for. 

Many say that 5% is a good winning percentage. I beg to differ. The Hill birds are 7/28 or 25% of the birds in the top 10% of races with four wins. Richard's birds, I think are higher than this. Our losses are higher than I want, but I contribute much of that to only four years of selection. Richards losses are lower. He has been in this sport for a long time. The results of race B were not from luck but from Richard's years of work and Ace's methods as a trainner. 

My point here is that in the debate about selection and establishing families of winning birds, one can get some good data here to help solidify some points. One must take what they learn from results and use it to better their flock. Some might settle for the results of their birds, others might want more. 

One thing I like about Ace is his disire to want more and his hard work. If you look to the foundation of his flock, Richard Clark, Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, Engels, Piet Valk, Calia, and many others, you will find the same qualities. Good birds and a disire to want more. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds

Time to break out the champagne and have a party!!!! 
*WAY TO GO!!!!!​*


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## lefty1991

way to go ace come on you have to let them win once or theyre all going to ban you from winning so much.


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## ace in the hole

Hey Ya All,

I think Lefty has a good idea. The next two races are 260 & 290 miles. After that we will be droping back to 130, 210 and 101 miles before the club and combine auction race of 323 miles. I will be holding back all of the Hillfamilyloft birds, most of Top Gun Loft's birds, all but one auction bird and all speed birds for the next two weeks. This will leave me with about 4 birds per race.

I do have a few of these birds that are mid and long distance birds that I think are comming into form now and ready to win these races. Here are a few to look for this weekend. FM 5418, KK 623 and A 28046.

One thing I feel I need to mention about last weeks B race is the top four birds. As you know these were all Richard Clark's - Top Gun Loft birds. What you don't know is that after checking my records I found I only had five of Richard's speed birds left. One of them came back late from the last race and was not sent. Of the four Top Gun Loft speed birds sent to this race, you guest it. They took 1st through 4th place in the club and it is not official yet but I beleave they took 1st through 4th North Section Combine as well. I will be sending this man another bottle of my best home made wine! 

Ace


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## ace in the hole

Well, I just got back from picking up one of Randy Hill's birds. FM 5495 was the first bird to the loft on our first race. That earned him 4th in the club. The second race he was 7th in the club, and the third race 21st. Of the three races he has been able to complete he has been in the top 10% twice and the other race in the top 20%. I guess I should have rested him this week. He has hit a wire and torn the skin on his breast. He was a combine auction bird, but will never see the race. It still is his lucky day though. Not only did he make it home but he will retire to the breeding loft were he will soon meet one of Richard Clark's speed bird hens.

Ace


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*A Star is Born....*

Hello Ace,

I am real happy for you. I think it is pretty safe to say that you exceeded what most 1st year fliers would be expected to do, and I am sure your club members are just a tad green right now ! 

For most 1st year fliers, just getting the birds home and in the clock, would be a major success. So, my hat is off to you, and I commend you for what you have been able to do. From my perspective, even if every race here on out, turns out very average, you have had a very successful YB season ! 

It helps with good birds of course, but make no mistake, you as the handler can help turn average birds into champs, and the best birds in the world can turn out pretty average results with poor management. Enjoy your sucess, you earned it.


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## ace in the hole

Thank you Warren,

It has been hard work, but I have enjoyed every minute of it. I have said it is like a second job. The pay days for this job don't usualy come every week, but for me they have every race day now. I have made many mistakes and am still making them, yet the birds win. I have three birds that have been in the top 5% every race. These birds may join 5495 in the breeding loft. They are 5457, 5416 and 5424. Therefor you will not see any of them in the next races. 5424 is paired to Hillfamilyloft's 5496 who Randy has picked to win the combine auction race. So, I had a little talk with 5496 today and told him if he shows me something more before the auction race and finnishes in the top 5% in that race he can join her in the breeding loft. 

Also, Hillfamilyloft's 5491 came home today after being gone for almost two weeks. He is also a combine auction bird and will get ready for when the races drop back. 

Ace


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## ace in the hole

Hi,

Just got back from basketing for the race tomorrow. I am only sending four birds per race. 

As for the Combine report! 
In the A race Hillfamilyloft's 5465 and 5462 took 1st and 2nd N. Section Combine, with 5424 bred from two SFL YORK birds taking third N. Section. The B race was 1st 5406, 2nd 5403, 3rd 5415 and 4th 5416 (All Richard Clark's Top Gun Loft Speed Birds). 5th was KK 623 bred by Kim Aldrich from my club. This bird is the only action bird sent to the races this week. I am looking for him to win the A race.

I will give you a report tomorrow after I have birds from both races. To all of you that are also racing tomorrow GOOD LUCK!!!

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just got back from basketing for the race tomorrow. I am only sending four birds per race.
> 
> As for the Combine report!
> In the A race Hillfamilyloft's 5465 and 5462 took 1st and 2nd N. Section Combine, with 5424 bred from two SFL YORK birds taking third N. Section. The B race was 1st 5406, 2nd 5403, 3rd 5415 and 4th 5416 (All Richard Clark's Top Gun Loft Speed Birds). 5th was KK 623 bred by Kim Aldrich from my club. This bird is the only action bird sent to the races this week. I am looking for him to win the A race.
> 
> I will give you a report tomorrow after I have birds from both races. To all of you that are also racing tomorrow GOOD LUCK!!!
> 
> Ace



Good luck tomorrow. I've got another week before we start racing and then it's only club races for 5 weeks. We're trying to do everything we can to help the new guys hold on to their birds so we've got OB flyers next year.
Our combine starts Oct. 4th (I think)


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## Lovebirds

Ace, does your combine have clocking limits? And I see your birds came in, in the North section.....so you get results from North or Long, Middle and Short distances as well as over all? Our combine does that too. We used to have a clocking limit but FINALLY after being here for 6 years, they did away with it.


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## ace in the hole

I'll Be watching for your race reports when that time comes. You are on the long end aren't you?

Ace


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## ace in the hole

No we do not have any clocking limits. Our Combine has only a North Section and a South Section.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

In the Ft. Wayne races I took 10th in the A and 3rd in the B over all. But it is not a fair race. The person who took 1st in both of those races was only 54 miles and I was 165 miles. He had released his birds from the release point many times and had three club races from that release point already. That is why we need a north and south section.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Oh Ace

Quit making excuses for those slow birds. You had a 110 mile overfly and the head wind was not that bad. Good news on the North Sectional. How did they fair against the southern boys? They must have been pushing 75 miles. Good luck in the AM. I will just be a spectator this race. 

I think it was a good move to hold them back. 9 races is quite a few before the big one. My only thoughts are if you hold them back how much will you keep training them so you don't get funky with their system and cause a molt. I am not an expert on this, so if anyone wants to chime in. Something I remember reading. I think with the system they will not. Just me not knowing. 

Also wondering what Hill birds are left. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

All birds will continue training as they have been. No changes other than no race on the weekend. 

As for the Hill's birds left,

FM 5453 1st club & 1st N. section combine

FM 5462 8th & 2nd club with a 2nd N. section combine - (club auction bird)

FM 5465 1st club & 1st N. section combine

FM 5491 2nd & 12th club - (combine auction bird)

FM 5493 2nd and 3rd club with a 2nd N. section combine - (combine auction bird)

FM 5494 (combine auction bird) 

FM 5496 32nd first to the loft on a hard race - (combine auction bird)

Ace


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## ohiogsp

Good luck, looks like it might be fast one for you. It will be a cross for me but it will blow the birds to the north "maybe" and that is fine with me. I am on the north side of the course.


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## ace in the hole

Ya, Good Luck Ohio.

Our race is on! The birds went up at 7:45 and 8:45 am. It will be a blow home with winds out of the SW at 10 to 20 mph. Right now it looks clear. I hope the rain holds off until the birds are in.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

Well, so far it is not good. It is 3:30 and I only have one out of eight birds back and that is from the B race. It is just to hot and humid today. I am glad I didn't send them all!

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Well, so far it is not good. It is 3:30 and I only have one out of eight birds back and that is from the B race. It is just to hot and humid today. I am glad I didn't send them all!
> 
> Ace


yea, that happens sometimes. B birds before A birds.........they'll come on in. There's got to be at least ONE bad race every season. Never fails. Where were they flying from today?


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## ace in the hole

They were flying from Castleton IN. 260 miles.


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## Lovebirds

So, any more birds home? I sure hope so.


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## ohiogsp

Our race got broke up for sure. There was 186 birds and I sent 6 and took 7th place. I only have 3 of 6 back now. Lots of people got singles today and they were spread out. Hope you get yours back.


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## ace in the hole

It is dusk now and there are 5 of them back. No prize winners today, but they know their way home. I expect to see the others tomorrow. Two of the three missing have until now always been in the clock.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> It is dusk now and there are 5 of them back. No prize winners today, but they know their way home. I expect to see the others tomorrow. Two of the three missing have until now always been in the clock.
> 
> Ace


Those other three will come beboppin' in tomorrow morning. 
Never fails. Every time you think you've got this thing figured out, they throw you a monkey wrench. 
I had an old bird last year that had won 5 club races and 2 combines. Two of the races were 500 milers. The third time to that race station, she flew to Indiana instead of Virginia from Alabama. Figure THAT one out.........
She flew 500 miles. Just went the wrong direction.


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## re lee

What is your air temps today. Around here at times in youngbird races the temps can hit over a hundred degrees in the first 2 to 3 races. Depends on old man summer. And the birds get home. But now some clubs are starting to fly later in sept the temps then is mostly in the 70s and 80s then.


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## Lovebirds

Just out of curiosity, how are you set up as far as flight line?
Here's a map of our club members and where they are flying to. The red line is me. 
Everyone says to train you birds to the breaking point. You can see where MY breaking point is. Right out of the basket.
In spite of this, last year, in the only club race we had, I took 1 - 12th place. We'll see what happens this year.


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## hillfamilyloft

Looks like you have a challenge Renee. You are upwind from everyone most of the races. 


We need to keep in mind that ACE kept most of his birds back this week. The birds that were sent were birds he wanted to test to see if they make the breeding loft. The birds have also flown 5 weeks in a row. I agree with him holding the birds back. 9 races before the big one is a bunch of races. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Well, I am out of average speed in the combine now too. Our club has a strict rule that if you're not at the club with your clock by 5pm you do not clock out! I was cought in a long traffic jam on the expressway and did not make it. I would have had 13th place in the A race and 5th place in the B. 

On a lighter note I do have 7 out of the 8 birds back so far.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Well, I am out of average speed in the combine now too. Our club has a strict rule that if you're not at the club with your clock by 5pm you do not clock out! I was cought in a long traffic jam on the expressway and did not make it. I would have had 13th place in the A race and 5th place in the B.
> 
> On a lighter note I do have 7 out of the 8 birds back so far.
> 
> Ace


Man, that stinks, but, that's why there are rules I guess. We used to have a problem with one member always being late. We put in a rule similiar to your combines and he was late one more time and got disqualified. Funny, it hasn't happened since. 
I realize you got stuck in traffic or it wouldn't have happened, but guys like our guy make you put in rules and then everyone has to abide by them. 
Glad you've got most birds back. Hopefully #8 will be in early tomorrow if not tonight.


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## ohiogsp

That sucks, You know in our club you have to clock a bird in every race to get average speed. I did not put the money in to race one of the races for money cause they told me about it on the day the money was due and I didn't have cash on me at the time. I just told them I would not fly it and now I am regreting it cause I have been clocking in every race pretty good. In our club nobody has even won average speen in like 3 years cause no one clocked a bird in every race.


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## Lovebirds

ohiogsp said:


> That sucks, You know in our club you have to clock a bird in every race to get average speed. I did not put the money in to race one of the races for money cause they told me about it on the day the money was due and I didn't have cash on me at the time. I just told them I would not fly it and now I am regreting it cause I have been clocking in every race pretty good. In our club nobody has even won average speen in like 3 years cause no one clocked a bird in every race.


It's not your club. That's what average speed is. A bird entered AND clocked in every race . I'm never in the running either, because I don't and won't send birds to a race for the sake of a pat on the back or a piece of paper. I normally clock in every race I enter, but I never enter every single race.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> Well, I am out of average speed in the combine now too. Our club has a strict rule that if you're not at the club with your clock by 5pm you do not clock out! I was cought in a long traffic jam on the expressway and did not make it. I would have had 13th place in the A race and 5th place in the B.
> 
> On a lighter note I do have 7 out of the 8 birds back so far.
> 
> Ace


Hello Ace,

Not sure I totally understand such a rule. In the YRPC, the Race Secretary has control of knock off time. I will wait till the fancier himself gives up, if everyone has birds at 2 in the afternoon, then fine, we will knock off the clocks. If it is 5 PM, and a fancier wants to wait another hour...then that is what we will do. We try to bend over backwards so that there is no "No Report", has yet to happen, but under the right conditions, if we want to hold the race over to the following day, I don't think there is anything the Combine can do about it. Sorry to hear you fell victim to a rule, which appears to exclude a member's time. 

I guess with such a rule in place, one has to leave early enough in case there is some travel problems. But, I wonder if you were the 1st one at the club, and an earthquake or some other act of God took place, if the rest of the club would disqualify themselves ?  Somehow....I don't think so. I guess your early wins will now insure that you won't get any slack...better dot every i, and cross every t. You are a guy to beat, or get disqualified now.


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## Lovebirds

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Ace,
> 
> Not sure I totally understand such a rule. In the YRPC, the Race Secretary has control of knock off time. I will wait till the fancier himself gives up, if everyone has birds at 2 in the afternoon, then fine, we will knock off the clocks. If it is 5 PM, and a fancier wants to wait another hour...then that is what we will do. We try to bend over backwards so that there is a "No Report", has yet to happen, but under the right conditions, if we want to hold the race over to the following day, I don't think there is anything the Combine can do about it. Sorry to hear you fell victim to a rule, which appears to exclude a member's time.
> 
> I guess with such a rule in place, one has to leave early enough in case there is some travel problems. But, I wonder if you were the 1st one at the club, and an earthquake or some other act of God took place, if the rest of the club would disqualify themselves ?  Somehow....I don't think so. I guess your early wins will now insure that you won't get any slack...better dot every i, and cross every t. You are a guy to beat, or get disqualified now.



I think that you misunderstood some parts. You're talking about the day AFTER the race here. NOT race day. I don't agree with knocking off clocks AT ALL on RACE DAY. The race was yesterday. Our club knocks off clocks on Monday night, at 4:30. That's TWO days after the race is over. We would sit around sometimes until 6:00 waiting for this guy to show up. It got rediculous. We HAD to put in a rule of some kind. 
I'm still sorry that it happened to Ace, I truly am, but I've been where the guys in his club were, waiting.......waiting........how long are you supposed to wait? 
We had the same problem with shipping. We ship at 5:00. We ship the A birds and seal the baskets before any B birds can be shipped. Now, 5:30, 5:45, 6:00...we're standing around tapping our feet waiting for Joe Blow to show up. So we put in a rule. We ship at 5:00. You have until 5:30 to get there with your birds. If 5:30 rolls around and we aren't through shipping the A birds, and you show up, we'll let you ship your birds. If we finish shipping the A birds at 5:15, we wait until 5:30. If you aren't there, we seal the baskets and go on to the B birds. If you show up, you can ship your B birds, but you're SOL on the A race. 
I'm a real stickler for rules. If you make a rule, then go by it. Period. If you don't like the rule, then change it next year.
If you don't go by Rule #1, then why should you have to go by Rule #2 and who decides which rules you HAVE to go by and which ones you can fudge on sometimes? 
Sorry, I got off on the wrong subject. I'll shut up now.
Sorry again Ace...........but bottom line is.........YOU know what your birds did and THEY know what your birds did and that can't be changed!!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Lovebirds said:


> I think that you misunderstood some parts. You're talking about the day AFTER the race here. NOT race day. I don't agree with knocking off clocks AT ALL on RACE DAY. The race was yesterday. Our club knocks off clocks on Monday night, at 4:30. That's TWO days after the race is over. We would sit around sometimes until 6:00 waiting for this guy to show up. It got rediculous. We HAD to put in a rule of some kind.
> I'm still sorry that it happened to Ace, I truly am, but I've been where the guys in his club were, waiting.......waiting........how long are you supposed to wait?
> We had the same problem with shipping. We ship at 5:00. We ship the A birds and seal the baskets before any B birds can be shipped. Now, 5:30, 5:45, 6:00...we're standing around tapping our feet waiting for Joe Blow to show up. So we put in a rule. We ship at 5:00. You have until 5:30 to get there with your birds. If 5:30 rolls around and we aren't through shipping the A birds, and you show up, we'll let you ship your birds. If we finish shipping the A birds at 5:15, we wait until 5:30. If you aren't there, we seal the baskets and go on to the B birds. If you show up, you can ship your B birds, but you're SOL on the A race.
> I'm a real stickler for rules. If you make a rule, then go by it. Period. If you don't like the rule, then change it next year.
> If you don't go by Rule #1, then why should you have to go by Rule #2 and who decides which rules you HAVE to go by and which ones you can fudge on sometimes?
> Sorry, I got off on the wrong subject. I'll shut up now.
> Sorry again Ace...........but bottom line is.........YOU know what your birds did and THEY know what your birds did and that can't be changed!!


Oh....you are right, I misunderstood. Now, I understand. That has never occured here yet....but I can see the reason now for such a rule...misunderstood. I thought we were talking about race day....sorry.


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## ohiogsp

Oh, it is way different here cause the race ends and the clocks are knocked off very fast. After people start getting birds in they usually say you have 1 hour to clock and a hour to get to the club. The races here are knocked off within 2 hours of the winning bird hitting the landing board and you can not clock within 1 hour of knock off. So, I guess you see why no one gets average speed here.


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## hillfamilyloft

looks like the rules are the only thing that can beat you. Remember your purpose. To establish a family of birds that wins every week. Just do not be late to the money race and you will be ok. They all know who has the fastest birds and the best methods. They will use anything to beat you. It is funny how they punish the working man in the sport. Get a few crabby patties in the club and this is the result. These guys are the reason clubs break up and the new guys get discouraged. But these guys are the funest guys to beat on race day. Funny how the other club that I fly in and yours are like night and day. The new guys are given the best stock from everyone. They help each other build lofts and share with the trainning. There are three crabbies that fly alone while the 20 others guys send 500 birds to the races. Love to help the new guys out with birds, especially when they whoop the turkeys. Everyone that I have given birds to in Albuquerque have offered the bird back to me. 

Oh well.

Randy


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## Lovebirds

ohiogsp said:


> Oh, it is way different here cause the race ends and the clocks are knocked off very fast. After people start getting birds in they usually say you have 1 hour to clock and a hour to get to the club. The races here are knocked off within 2 hours of the winning bird hitting the landing board and you can not clock within 1 hour of knock off. So, I guess you see why no one gets average speed here.


Now, that's some crazy stuff...........I know they used to do it that way in the "olden" days........it's 2008 for crying out loud. Between the bickering that goes on and the older guys wanting to live in the modern day but not be a part of it......it's a wonder there's as many racing fanciers as there are. Seems like to me as long as there's day light left, a man should be able to clock his bird.


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## ace in the hole

I will not be flying this week. This weeks race is 290 miles. Next week we will be back to 130 miles. The birds are being medicated now and will be ready to kick some butt next week. If I am going to build my breeding stock I can not push them to hard.

I am still torn on weather or not to send 5457 or 5424. 5457 will be setting ten day old eggs next Saturday!!!!! I have the parents to both of these birds. What to do? What to do?

I would like each of you that has a gut feeling on what they would do PM me telling me what they would do with these two birds. Again 5457 was in three races 1st,1st and 6th club. 5424 was in four races, never 1st but that was only because she lacked the drive to trap. 3 of the 4 races she was on the first drop! Both birds have been in the top 5% every race. 5416 has also been in the top 5% in all four races. I do not have his parents so he will be stocked. 

Well, what would you do. Please PM me. That way one persons thoughts will not sway someone elses. I know when it comes right down to it it must be my decision and it will be. I am just asking for your input to help me make that dicision.

Thanks,

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Ok here is my logic in the matter. 

5424 is Houben and York
5457 is York and York

With these two birds and the three York stock birds that would make five York birds unless you have saved another back. This would make three stock pair for next year. If you race them and loose them you would then have two stock pair next year. 

From what I see you have three families of birds that are flying well for you. Warren's Yorks, Clark birds and Hill birds. 

As of now you have about 10 winning birds and six or eight pairs that have bred winners. That is a good foundation in anyones book. My goal is to breed from pairs that have bred winners or use the winners themselves. In my case I would stock them so I would have three breeding pairs of a bloodline that has performed well. That would give me 12 young birds to fly next year as opposed to 8. 

Now if they were Hill birds I would tell you to fly them. Due to the numbers in your loft. Five pair and 7 on the team that have performed. I would though retire them after this race of 290. They then would prove they could go the distance of the money races. Clark birds I might send them because of numbers. 

I would assess how many pairs that you want next year and what % of each bloodline you want to try and cross. How many speed pair and how many distance birds.

I think you are looking at about 12 to 20 pairs for next year. The end of the season you need around 40 birds. I would decide now which birds you want at the end. If their number comes up, stock them. If they are auction birds race them. I would now think of the total number of birds in your loft now and which ones you are thinking of giving away. My thoughts are that after selection that you might want to seriously think about stocking those two. 

I had a bird that was 3rd, 3rd, 12th, and 4th, that won the points last year, that flew great as a young bird and old bird. Was top 10% nine times in two season and was lost at 300 miles. He was a speed bird. Stupid choice to send him when losses were high for the year. 

The York birds can go the distance and win, but would they be better off stocked for next years young birds, so they would be represented more next year?

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Now as for what Hill birds to keep over for next year, keep any pairs that have bred winners, any winners, and cross out the others. This would give you about 4 pair from the bloodline and some to cross. You have the Clark birds that are the most line bred along with the York x York pair. I would want to hold on to these bloodlines and cross out a few of the young birds. So you might need 5424 and 5427. 

Keep in mind that out of the Hill birds that you have you do not have race birds off of two of my top pairs. Next year you could bring in a few more select birds to test to add to your pool. When it comes time to assess the Hill birds, I will have raced over 70 birds this year. We will know what is best. 

Randy


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## whitesnmore

*Food for Thought*

Ace, I cannot tell you what to do only you can but you have to determine what it is you are trying to accomplish. The first thing I would look at is-- What distance have my birds flown successfully. Is this the distances I am wanting my basic line to fly at. If not and it is at a further distance I would continue sending the birds out to that distance to see if I had the stock capable of doing what I wanted to accomplish. (But only if they were not exhausted and only if they were in form) If the birds can't cut it at the "Money distance" than I would know I need to let these birds either go or cross out to a bird proven to do the distance fast and/or against tough weather. Short to short-middle is not the distance for most Money races and I only kept the sprinters to breed back into my middle distance birds to bring their YPM's up. It is a multi-year task to refine someone elses stock to suit your needs. I have had Warren's stock in my loft for 4 years now and have just got the crosses completed to my satisfaction. We continue to improve on those lines each year but still have years to go to perfect the blood for our needs here. I am not too familiar with Randy's line but it seems from the posts you have sprinters and tough birds of his. Coupled with the other blood you have I believe you have a good foundation to repeat this year again next even if you lose your winning YB's from this year. I personally would not keep any birds for breeding that had not flown out to at least 300 miles once as a YB. You are not a rookie at this and I know you will know what to do and wish you luck the rest of the year.
Ken
K & D Lofts


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## hillfamilyloft

One thing to add about sending them 300 before you stock them. If they are multiple winners up to 300 and from a bloodline you know can do the distance like the Yorks, it is probably a good bet they will breed birds that can go 300, no matter when you stock them. If you did not know the background of the bird, then I would send them. In this case Ace knows what the bloodline has done and the birds are multiple winners. If the birds have not proven themselves, by all means send them. 

Randy


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## ezemaxima

ace in the hole said:


> I am still torn on weather or not to send 5457 or 5424. 5457 will be setting ten day old eggs next Saturday!!!!! I have the parents to both of these birds. What to do? What to do?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ace



I don't race and barely have any experience with pigeons but when is a young bird considered old enough to breed? Most of the advice I got was to wait atleast the bird is a year old before breeding. Or is it just a matter of preference? Good luck with your races...


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## learning

ohiogsp said:


> Oh, it is way different here cause the race ends and the clocks are knocked off very fast. After people start getting birds in they usually say you have 1 hour to clock and a hour to get to the club. The races here are knocked off within 2 hours of the winning bird hitting the landing board and you can not clock within 1 hour of knock off. So, I guess you see why no one gets average speed here.


I very well could be mistaken, but it was my understanding that at least 20% of the birds in a race had to be clocked before you could knock off. I am not sure if that is in the rules or not. I would have to look it up. I was told that by an old member. I will research it and get back.

Dan


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## learning

O.K., I did some digging and found some very interesting stuff.

Did you know that clocking limits are expressly forbidden under AU rules? In section 7.04-B8, and again in section 7.13 it states clearly that "Clocking limits will not be permitted in AU sanctioned competition." I found that interesting since I know of several clubs that participate in this particular practice.

In regards to knockoff, it section 7.31 it states, "The race secretary shall be assured that a sufficient quantity of birds have returned from the race and all positions for awards have been taken before designating the time for openning of the clocks and closing the race."

Now, since AU awards take into account the top 20% of the birds in a race, then according to this, 20% of the birds must have returned from a race in order to knockoff. I don't know if that means that if less than 20% of the birds return from that the race then the race is to be considered null and void or not. I would have to get clarification on that one from the AU.

Food for thought.

Dan


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## ohiogsp

Very interesting for sure. They must not enforce these rules. I can show you results of one of our races on the AU site where there was 128 birds in the race and only 15 clocked.


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## ace in the hole

ohiogsp said:


> Very interesting for sure. They must not enforce these rules. I can show you results of one of our races on the AU site where there was 128 birds in the race and only 15 clocked.


That is not right!


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## ace in the hole

Ohio, 

How have your returns been this morning?

Ace


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## learning

ohiogsp said:


> Very interesting for sure. They must not enforce these rules. I can show you results of one of our races on the AU site where there was 128 birds in the race and only 15 clocked.


I never said it didn't happen, only that it was against the rules! I know there are a lot of clubs that have done this in the name of preserving club members. I think the AU probably just doesn't have the man power or time to look into possible rule breakers. After all, this has always been a sport that is self regulating. As anyone who has worked with clocking pigeons knows, there are a million ways to cheat, if that is what you are looking to do. Even with the modern electronic clocks.

Dan


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> I very well could be mistaken, but it was my understanding that at least 20% of the birds in a race had to be clocked before you could knock off. I am not sure if that is in the rules or not. I would have to look it up. I was told that by an old member. I will research it and get back.
> 
> Dan


Depends on whether the club is actually flying by AU race rules. IF they are, then a complaint needs to be made. Don't know that it will do any good, but I'd make the complaint anyway. Course, that's just me. Some folks don't like to create waves.........I don't LIKE to, but I will if I have too. 
Our combine is made up of 9 clubs. 1/2 of them are AU clubs, some others are IF clubs and a few are "nothing".........no affiliation with either of the national organizations. Up until last year, our combine flew by the IF race rules which are pretty much non-existent.  You pretty much make up your own rules and then go by them (or not) as you see fit. And I could write a book about that..........
The only time the AU or IF even cares whether you're "following their rules" is if you apply for AU and/or IF awards. THEN, everything must be by the book. If you're just flying to be flying, then I don't think the IF or the AU care one way or the other. 
If you make a complaint to the IF or the AU, then they'll "look into it". I've gone to the AU once to get an opinon and just threatening to do so straightened out the problem that we were having.
I believe in following rules STRICTLY...........


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## fastpitch dad

I completly AGREE Renee.
Rules are not made to be broke they're there to keep order.Those at the bottom no matter what sport like to try to change things to help themselves instead of trying to improve on what they are doing or not doing for that matter.
like myself I know since this is my first year flying i probably want do well. I just hope the birds make it home and if they do the girls and I will race against one another and learn from our(my) mistakes.
just like softball when the team makes mistakes we don't yell at them we work on it at practice and get better. we don't go to the umps and try to change the rules.


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## ohiogsp

ace in the hole said:


> Ohio,
> 
> How have your returns been this morning?
> 
> Ace


Nothing, just the 2 day birds I had yesterday. It is so hot here now I am sure I won't see any until tonight I hope. 

I thought club rules could over ride AU rules? I am 99 percent sure we will have clocking limits here next year also. I know some stuff is not right but I am not one to make a fuss. We have alot of flyers here and you don't want to hurt that. It also seems that like most other things most our rules are made for one person. It seems it would be easier to just elimate that person but I don't think that is right either.


----------



## learning

ohiogsp said:


> Nothing, just the 2 day birds I had yesterday. It is so hot here now I am sure I won't see any until tonight I hope.
> 
> I thought club rules could over ride AU rules? I am 99 percent sure we will have clocking limits here next year also. I know some stuff is not right but I am not one to make a fuss. We have alot of flyers here and you don't want to hurt that. It also seems that like most other things most our rules are made for one person. It seems it would be easier to just elimate that person but I don't think that is right either.


This is the primary reason the IF was started. Some people didn't want a national organization telling them how to run their club so they formed the IF which is much, much more lax when it comes to race rules. With them, I believe club rules take prescedent, but with the AU it isn't supposed to work that way.

Dan


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## ace in the hole

Well, I just had to let you know that FM 5416 helped me make my decission today on weather or not to send my top 5%ers. They were all released from 45 miles today. 5416 has never been late before! Today he made me sweat it for an hour. I thought for sure he was gone! He was to be stocked and should not have been training with them anyways. After this little wake up call, 5416, 5457 and 5424 will not go out again. 5424's sibling 5450 started out good then hit a wire early in the season ( she is a club auction bird ). I have held her back and was going to send her again starting this week, but she was also late. I will be stocking her as well now. 

Having the breeding stock to go forward with my family of birds is more important to me than winning more races this year.

Ace


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## lefty1991

that is the way to go ace


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## ohiogsp

learning said:


> O.K., I did some digging and found some very interesting stuff.
> 
> Did you know that clocking limits are expressly forbidden under AU rules? In section 7.04-B8, and again in section 7.13 it states clearly that "Clocking limits will not be permitted in AU sanctioned competition." I found that interesting since I know of several clubs that participate in this particular practice.
> 
> In regards to knockoff, it section 7.31 it states, "The race secretary shall be assured that a sufficient quantity of birds have returned from the race and all positions for awards have been taken before designating the time for openning of the clocks and closing the race."
> 
> Now, since AU awards take into account the top 20% of the birds in a race, then according to this, 20% of the birds must have returned from a race in order to knockoff. I don't know if that means that if less than 20% of the birds return from that the race then the race is to be considered null and void or not. I would have to get clarification on that one from the AU.
> 
> Food for thought.
> 
> Dan



Check this out, I think it says the club has the right to knock off when they want? 


14.01 A race is officially closed at a time and day agreed upon by the organization membership when the race schedule is set, if not otherwise set in the organizational constitution and bylaws, or race rules.

The Race Secretary shall assure that a sufficient quantity of birds have returned from the race and all positions for awards have been taken before designating the time for opening of the clocks and closing the race.


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## hillfamilyloft

The thing is the club secretary knew that ACE had birds in the clock that would compete or win. Therefore it was not reasonable for him to conclude that all race position were taken. I personally think it is crap what they did to him. It only shows you that the other members cannot loose with dignity when their butts are kicked. I personally would not feel moral winning that way. Knowing my birds were not the best, but took the win anyway. If I were the race secretary, I would have held the race open knowing that top birds were in the clock that were not knocked off. At least give ACE a call and see where he was. I think what they did to ACE the first race was also cheap. I am glad that I could be a part of beating them in some of the races. It is always funner to beat these kind of guys than those who are not in this sport for themselves. I like races where the best bird wins not the cheatin' bastards.

Randy


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## ace in the hole

The important thing for me is I know what my birds did. I will not get average speed in the club or combine now. Even though I had that in the bag. But, I did stock five great birds so far because my focus is already on next year and what my birds are going to do to them. If some of these birds in the race this week win they will also trade there chip rings for a nest bowl. These birds to look for this week are 5453 from Hill's stock, 5415 nest mate to stocked 5416 Top Gun Loft, 5465 bred by Hillfamilyloft's. These birds are all in the A race. My pick is 5465. She is setting eight day old eggs and that is what she was setting when she won 1st Club & 1st N. Sec. Combine 210 miles. This race is 130 miles. If any or all of these three are in the top 5% of the A race this week they will be stocked.

In the B race I have 5412 Top Gun Loft sitting eight day eggs and some top Hill's birds (5493, 5462, 5491, 5496).

There are 11 birds in the A and 11 birds in the B this week. 1/3 of them are Hill's birds.

Oh, I also wanted to tell you that next week at 210 miles 5406 Top Gun Loft will do a repeat and take 1st Club and 1st N. Sec. Combine.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

It looks like another great day in Michigan. It is 1:35 pm here and I already have 19 of 22 birds back from 130 mile A & B races released at 9 and 10 this morning.

The Hillfamilyloft's Birds dominated the loft and maybe the reaces. In the A Race, I called it with 5465 trapping first. 5407 was right behind it and then a 28 minute wait for the next bird. The one person from the club that I have a time on this race I have beat by 10 minutes. 5465 May be a stock bird now.

In the B Race, I could not beleave what I was seeing when 7 out of 11 B birds landed on the drop and traped in seconds. They were led in by 5491 a Hillfamilyloft Combine Auction bird. Second in was 5403 from Top Gun Loft who in her last race took 2nd Club and 2nd N. Sec. Combine (may be a repeat). Third in was 5496 another Combine auction bird from Hillfamilyloft. By the way, this is the bird Randy Hill has picked to win that auction race at 323 miles.

Ace


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## lefty1991

here comes the domination again


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## hillfamilyloft

It just dawned on me that 5465 and 5491 are siblings. Nice to see nest mates do this. It reflects the quality of the pair. The irony here is that I was thinking of separating this pair because they did not have a win. They had produced top five before, but no outstanding birds. The dam' "Rose" is my best looking bird in the loft. I was not going to send ACE the babies off of these because I was not completely sure they could win. I had some clear eggs and needed to band a bird with the last auction band. Well, they proved me wrong. I was sure of the bloodline, but not the pairing. Also, I did not band 5465 with an auction band because she was a spalsh with the dreaded white flights, as some think that white flights are weak. The white is thrown from the Engels blood in the lineage. 

5496 is a sibling to "Rose". This is my most reliable bloodline. Good to see they performed today. I told ACE, I had an advantage today because most of the Richard Clark birds were not in the race today. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Pic of 5465 and 5491 with "Rose"


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## ace in the hole

I would like to start this post by adding to my prediction for next weeks races. 5465 will be in and win the A race. 5406 will be in and win the B race. They will be flying from the Marion IN. station (210 miles). This was their last race station were 5465 won the A and 5406 won the B. I'll put money on a repeat! Any takers?

That's right 5465 did not win the A race this week. She came in 13th and 5407 14th. They were 10 minutes out from 1st.

*THE B RACE * NOW THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT **

*1st - 5491 From Hillfamilyloft's *(5465's nestmate) this bird now has placed 1st, 2nd and 12th in the club. The second place was also from this station (130 miles). To get that 2nd place he trapped in right between 5457 1st & 5416 3rd. Both of these birds have already been stocked.

*2nd - 5403 From Top Gun Loft *She also took 2nd Club & 2nd N. Sec. Combine her last race. 

*3rd - 5496 From Hillfamilyloft's *This bird was first to the loft the last time he flew this station.

*4th - 5412 Top Gun Loft *Remember the last race I sent all of the birds to. I said I had sent 4 out of the 5 Top Gun Loft speed birds and they took 1st through 4th place! This is the one I didn't send. She now has Club 4th & 5th place wins.

*5th - A 28046 Siegel's Super Schellen's Family *This bird just needs a win! His race record to date is 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th and 11th. Ed wanted me to take this bird all the way, so I told him I wouldn't pull it without getting his permission first. I will be asking him for permission not to fly this bird in the 323 mile race. I think it might have something to offer in the breeding loft (if you loose them you can't breed them).

*6th - 6103 From club menber John Smith (combine auction bird)* This bird should get stronger with the distance.

*7th - 5484 From Larry Fatalski of Detroit MI.* This bird also has a club 2nd place win.

I would like to respond to Randy's statement about me holding back most of the Top Gun Loft birds. I DID NOT! The only Clark birds held were 5416 and 5406. I shipped 22 birds. 7 of them were Randy's and 7 of them were Richards. Hillfamilyloft's birds just out flew the Top Gun Loft birds this week.

Now, It's time to start getting ready for next weeks races. No rest for the Winners!!!

Ace


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## Young Bird

You plan on making a video or a book of your winning method's? I am sold!!! No doubt that you have some awsome birds but they don't feed, train, and motivate themselves. Awsome work. I just hope I show up on the first page of my club let alone the combine next year.


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## ace in the hole

Young Bird said:


> You plan on making a video or a book of your winning method's? I am sold!!! No doubt that you have some awsome birds but they don't feed, train, and motivate themselves. Awsome work. I just hope I show up on the first page of my club let alone the combine next year.


Thank you, You never know. In a few years I may have a video out. I am a Pro Dog Trainer and have a three tape training series out. Just as I did with the dogs. I developed my own training methods. My birds are trained and fed like no other birds in the world.

As for showing up on the first page your first year. That is what I was told. "Before you start talking about winning races you should worry about making it onto the first page of the race report". Well I didn't listen to them and neither should you. What you have to keep in mind is that it doesn't just happen. You have to make it happen. It takes good birds, a lot of time, hard work and gas to make the top of that first sheet. Make that your goal and go for it. If you need help Young Bird - PM me.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Funny thing happened today at the Hill Family Loft. When I went out to feed the birds this morning, I had a little hen sitting on the landing board. She was DRO 2006 846. I checked her history when I got home today. Two years ago I had given her to a guy in Albuquerque to breed from. Yesterday she escaped. The loft is just at 150 miles from my house. She has been a prisoner breeder for the last two years and not loft flown. In 2006 I trained her out to all of about 5 miles. It is amazing what these birds can do. To top it all off, she is molting heavily. She is missing flights and tail feathers. i also got home late last night and did not check on the loft. She may have been home last night. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Funny thing happened today at the Hill Family Loft. When I went out to feed the birds this morning, I had a little hen sitting on the landing board. She was DRO 2006 846. I checked her history when I got home today. Two years ago I had given her to a guy in Albuquerque to breed from. Yesterday she escaped. The loft is just at 150 miles from my house. She has been a prisoner breeder for the last two years and not loft flown. In 2006 I trained her out to all of about 5 miles. It is amazing what these birds can do. To top it all off, she is molting heavily. She is missing flights and tail feathers. i also got home late last night and did not check on the loft. She may have been home last night.
> 
> Randy


I had a nice surprize last night to. When I went into the loft I spotted a bird I was sure was not mine, but it did have a chip ring on. I looked at the band #, it was FM 5483. This bird was lost in the Fort Wayne race a full month ago. I could see were it had hit a wire and ripped its chest open. 

I had recieved three birds from Larry Fatalski of Detroit MI. These birds were bread for the 300 mile + races ( money races ). 5484 and 5485 are still on the team and doing well. 5484 was 7th in the last B race. I just think it says alot about his birds to still have all three of them in my loft yet today. No other family of birds has even 50% remaining. 

5483 is out of the races for good. If 84 & 85 can show their stuff on the 323 mile race they may all get a chance to prove themselves in the breeding loft. I beleave 84 & 85 are nest mates.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

What a work ethic that bird has.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

just testing something out here.


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## ace in the hole

Well, I got the word this morning. Our races are being put off this weekend because of the weather. They will be basketing Monday for a Tuesday race. I may not send my birds! I am afraid by then the big storm coming in from the south will efect the birds and I am not going to chance loosing a lot of good birds due to the efects of this storm.

The site is looking good Randy. Can't wait to see the finished site.

Ace


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## Guest

I thought Randys site was looking great too  loved reading every lil bit of it and hope to read more as he adds it so keep up the great work  
and ace love reading about the progress of your birds as well , its always exciting to see how things are taking shape week by week thankyou for keeping us up to date and I wish you much luck thru the rest of the race year ... keep them old pigeon codgers on their toes I say ,great work !! lol 

p.s. 
just love how into it Randy gets when talking about his birds, just the way it should be ,man and bird against the world woohooooo keep it coming and thankyou again to both of you for sharing


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## hillfamilyloft

Thanks everyone. 

I am yet to be even close to where I want it. I want to add a section for breeders and how their lineage has done for me. I also have the rest of the 2007 yb races and futurities to put in along with what results I remember from 2006. I will work on the history part and links. The template makes it easy to create. Albuquerque is also starting the youngbird season next weekend and hopefully I will have good results to post from those. I will keep everyone posted how the Hill birds do. they are looking for 450 to 500 birds in the first youngbird race. It is nice because they have enough fliers where they have to set limits. I think everyone has a limit of about 30 birds. The are flying 100, 125, 150, 200, 250, 300, 150, and 200 miles in that order. 

If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to interject. The wizzard does not have a spelling and grammer check, so I am sure I have some mistakes. 

Randy


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## ohiogsp

Ace, I did not even notice until today that you fly with the frankenmuth club. Do you know my friend Tad?


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## ace in the hole

ohiogsp said:


> Ace, I did not even notice until today that you fly with the frankenmuth club. Do you know my friend Tad?


Yes, he is a good flyer. He won the A race last week. How do you know him?

Ace


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## ohiogsp

He is a great guy and friend of our club. He is coming down in a couple weeks. I got my best breeding pair from him. He gave me birds from his team last year and I bred from them. He does well in the distance races usually. The birds he gave me took the top places in a 300 mile race last year.


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## ace in the hole

ohiogsp said:


> He does well in the distance races usually. The birds he gave me took the top places in a 300 mile race last year.


Yes, he does focus on the 300 + mile races and has bought and bred for that. Our auction race (money race) for him is about 343 miles.

It is a small world!

Ace


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## ace in the hole

*The Race Is On*

The weather is looking good. The storm is past and the race is on. It looks like it should be a good day for a race tomorrow. I just got home from the club house. I shipped 11 birds to the A race and 12 to the B race. Last Saturdays race will be held tomorrow and clocked out Wednesday at six.

I'll be working tomorrow so I won't know how it went for my birds until tomorrow night. I'll give you an update then.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Ace

When are they holding the auction race. Is Tuesdays race going to be four days before the auction race. Just curious. I still think the birds can do it, but was wondering what they were doing with that race. 

We are starting the Albuquerque races this weekend. I am going to go down for the basketing on Friday. 

Keep us posted on the race. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Ace
> 
> When are they holding the auction race. Is Tuesdays race going to be four days before the auction race. Just curious. I still think the birds can do it, but was wondering what they were doing with that race.
> 
> Randy


This weekends race is only 101 miles. The following weekend is the auction race. Any of the auction race birds that come in in good time will go to the 101 this weekend. If I have any come in late they will be held back from this race.

Ace


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## ohiogsp

Good luck.


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## ace in the hole

Here is what I was talking about when I mentioned flying to close to the big storms. Chicago Flyers had a race today were over 500 birds were released. Of these 500 + birds on a 300 mile race there were only two day birds clocked.

That does not make me feel good about tomorrows races, but I beleave the storm has moved off far enough that it should not be a problem tomorrow.

Birds are shipped, fingers are crossed!!

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Can you say new race secretary, boys and girls.


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## ohiogsp

When we had our 200 mile smash race the last hurricane was in the gulf. I think there is something to it.


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## ace in the hole

ohiogsp said:


> When we had our 200 mile smash race the last hurricane was in the gulf. I think there is something to it.


*I think our race today may have still been a little to close to the storm.*

It has not been a good day for racing here in Michigan. It is 6:30 pm. The A birds went up at 8:15 this morning and the B birds at 9:15. Of 11 birds in the A race I do have 8 of them back. Out of the 12 sent to the B race only 4 have come back so far. That's only 1/2 of the birds sent.

Not only did 5465 not win the A race, she is not home yet! I'll update this after dark.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> *I think our race today may have still been a little to close to the storm.*
> 
> It has not been a good day for racing here in Michigan. It is 6:30 pm. The A birds went up at 8:15 this morning and the B birds at 9:15. Of 11 birds in the A race I do have 8 of them back. Out of the 12 sent to the B race only 4 have come back so far. That's only 1/2 of the birds sent.
> 
> Not only did 5465 not win the A race, she is not home yet! I'll update this after dark.
> 
> Ace


Sorry to hear this, but it happens to the best of us. Try hard you want, study long as you can............you'll never figure out exactly what makes these birds tick. 
Just when you think you've got them figured out, they throw you a curve ball. 
I'm sure the other birds will be in tomorrow. We just had a bird come home that has been missing since 7 Sept. I just happened to have the trap locked. If not, she'd come in and I'd never know she was home. That's why during the week between races, if I've got a missing bird, I like to leave my clock in training mode, JUST IN CASE.........


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## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Sorry to hear this, but it happens to the best of us. Try hard you want, study long as you can............you'll never figure out exactly what makes these birds tick.
> Just when you think you've got them figured out, they throw you a curve ball.


Well, 13 of 23 are back in the loft. I am still missing 3 of my 5 combine auction birds. 

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Well, 13 of 23 are back in the loft. I am still missing 3 of my 5 combine auction birds.
> 
> Ace


They'll be in tomorrow. When you get this deep into the race season, you don't "just loose" birds..........either it was just a tough day for them and they'll be home or something happened to them. They aren't out there wondering "how the heck do I get home"........


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## ohiogsp

On our 200 I lost 11 of 15 and I only had 23 at the start of the season. I was down to 21 at that point. So after that race I had 10 birds. Well 2 week later a auction bird came back for me. Well after a few days rest I let it out to loft fly and a freaken hawk took it of the top of my loft (only my second bird to get hawked this year). Then last weekend some one from fort wayne said they had one of mine from that race and I got that back. I lost one and got one so still at ten. It is hard racing pigeons with 10 birds. When I lost these birds at 200 some had been to 4 races and all were raced at least once. 

Good luck getting your birds back. You will get more tomorrow. I think I will watch for hurricanes in the future.


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## ohiogsp

How many did you get back ace?


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## ace in the hole

ohiogsp said:


> How many did you get back ace?


So far I have 20 of the 23 back in the loft. I had one come in at 7:15 last night. It was spent, nothing but skin and bones. This bird flew its heart out to get home. Of the three that are still missing two of them are Hillfamilyloft's birds ( 5465 & 5496).

My birds were late last week taking 9th and 10th in the A and 12th was the best in the B race.

I basketed birds tonight for tomorrows races. For the A race I only sent two birds. Hillfamilyloft's 5453 and Top Gun Loft's 5403. These two are marked as a breeding pair for next years team. Let's see how this pair does against the rest of the club!

I sent 12 birds to the B race. For some of these birds it will be their last race. Next week is the 323 mile auction races, and the last races of the season.

I'll let you know what unfolds tomorrow.

Ace


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## Young Bird

Ace I was wondering how many pigeons made it through the season? In the first post you say you had 76 young birds.


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## ace in the hole

Young Bird said:


> Ace I was wondering how many pigeons made it through the season? In the first post you say you had 76 young birds.


At this time I have 26 of them left on the team. So one third of them have made it this far. Some of them have already been pulled from the team to take their place in the breeding loft.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

The B birds beat the A birds home today. They are on the top of the sheet if not the winners. I had three on the first drop followed by seven in the second drop only four minutes behind. That is ten out of twelve birds in four minute!!!!

The birds were released from the south west with a south west wind bringing the first birds in at 1517 YPM.

In the first drop,

*1st - 5485 from Larry Fatalski.* This bird has a 10th, 10th, and 12th place. He was bred for the 300 + races and I will be looking for him to come in early next week.
*2nd - 5415 from Richard Clark *( nest mate sister to 5416 ) 5416 has been stocked after four consecutive races in the top 5%, including a 1st club and 1st north section combine win.
*3rd - 5473 from Ken Munson*

We'll see tomorrow night if they did it for me again.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

*They Did it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*Man that was a close race! *

(check out the seconds to win)

*B race,*

*1st. *- *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT *- FM 5485 - from Larry Fatalski - 00.00 seconds to win

*2nd.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT *- FM 5415 - from Richard Clark - 00.02 seconds to win

*3rd.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT *- FM 5473 - from Ken Munson - 00.04 seconds to win

*4th.* - David Boudro ----------00.04 seconds to win

*5th.* - David Boudro ---------- 00.05 seconds to win

*6th.* - David Boudro ---------- 00.25 seconds to win

*7th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT * - FM 5406 - from Richard Clark - 03.02 seconds to win 

*8th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - KONA 254 - from Ace In The Hole Loft

*9th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - FM 5462 - from Ace In The Hole Loft out of Hillfamilyloft's stock

*10th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - A 28046 - from Ed Minvielle (siegel's) " Super Schellen's" Family

*11th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - FM 6103 from John Smith (combine auction bird)

*12th.* - Tad Filiczkowski 

*13th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - KONA 251 - from Ace In The Hole Loft

----- *14th. through 18th. - * Tad Filiczkowski ------

*19th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - FM 5484 - from Larry Fatalski

*What a team! * They have really made me proud. Even after removing my best birds from the team for the breeding loft. They still give me results like this.

PS. The Hillfamilyloft birds were held back for next weeks 323 mile auction race.

Ace


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## fastpitch dad

*wow* thats about all you can say

GREAT JOB ACE


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## Lovebirds

*JOB WELL DONE!!! *You can be VERY proud of what you've accomplished this year.

*COOL!!!!​*


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## hillfamilyloft

great job Ace

Well the one Hill bird in your race did better than all my Albuquerque birds combined. I had about 20 birds go to the 100 mile race and finished 36th out of 318 birds. The race was a sprint and had much to do with loft position. I only had birds with one of the top 10% finishers and my 36th bird was his fourth in. I did however have the first bird in for two fanciers, second and third for another, and 4th and 5th to the loft also. The guy that won wanted some of my birds but never got any. The race had great returns. About 300 of the 318 made it back. By 11:00am they had 223 birds back. On the bright side, I never do good in the 100 mile race in ABQ. Too much competition and loft possition for the sprint. 

I did meet a long distance flier from Belgium. Interesting guy. 17 lofts flew with a 26 bird limit. I am sure some of my birds stayed home the first race. The more I learn about the club members the more I find out the quality of the birds I am facing. I fly against babies off of imported birds, and futurity fliers. I do still have confidence in the birds. 

Too bad Ace can not fly my birds down here. 

You can find the results here for the next eight weeks. 
http://www.loslobosrpc.com

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Congradulations !*



ace in the hole said:


> *Man that was a close race! *
> 
> (check out the seconds to win)
> 
> *B race,*
> 
> *1st. *- *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT *- FM 5485 - from Larry Fatalski - 00.00 seconds to win
> 
> *2nd.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT *- FM 5415 - from Richard Clark - 00.02 seconds to win
> 
> *3rd.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT *- FM 5473 - from Ken Munson - 00.04 seconds to win
> 
> *4th.* - David Boudro ----------00.04 seconds to win
> 
> *5th.* - David Boudro ---------- 00.05 seconds to win
> 
> *6th.* - David Boudro ---------- 00.25 seconds to win
> 
> *7th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT * - FM 5406 - from Richard Clark - 03.02 seconds to win
> 
> *8th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - KONA 254 - from Ace In The Hole Loft
> 
> *9th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - FM 5462 - from Ace In The Hole Loft out of Hillfamilyloft's stock
> 
> *10th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - A 28046 - from Ed Minvielle (siegel's) " Super Schellen's" Family
> 
> *11th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - FM 6103 from John Smith (combine auction bird)
> 
> *12th.* - Tad Filiczkowski
> 
> *13th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - KONA 251 - from Ace In The Hole Loft
> 
> ----- *14th. through 18th. - * Tad Filiczkowski ------
> 
> *19th.* - *ACE IN THE HOLE LOFT* - FM 5484 - from Larry Fatalski
> 
> *What a team! * They have really made me proud. Even after removing my best birds from the team for the breeding loft. They still give me results like this.
> 
> PS. The Hillfamilyloft birds were held back for next weeks 323 mile auction race.
> 
> Ace


Congradulations Ace !!

Are you feeling confident enough to move beyond the local races to the One Loft arena ? Any idea what events you might consider ? 

I suspect that you are a fast study, and have contributed greatly to your bird's racing performance this season. With local races where you are the handler, it's more a test of your handling skills, then a test of the birds, at least that is my perspective. If you take yourself out of the picture, as in a One Loft event, then the birds are able to be tested side by side with other racers and one can compare apples to apples. 

In the mean time, enjoy this moment of glory with your birds, and good luck on your upcoming race.


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## hillfamilyloft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Congradulations Ace !!
> 
> Are you feeling confident enough to move beyond the local races to the One Loft arena ? Any idea what events you might consider ?
> 
> I suspect that you are a fast study, and have contributed greatly to your bird's racing performance this season. With local races where you are the handler, it's more a test of your handling skills, then a test of the birds, at least that is my perspective. If you take yourself out of the picture, as in a One Loft event, then the birds are able to be tested side by side with other racers and one can compare apples to apples.
> 
> In the mean time, enjoy this moment of glory with your birds, and good luck on your upcoming race.


Ace has definitely proved his worth as a trainer of young birds. Keep in mind that the results go beyond the club and into the Michigan Combine. Here his birds are tested against tougher competition. We also have to keep in mind that birds from Larry Fatalski, Richard Clark, Ken Munson and Ed Minvielle etc are not just run of the mill barn birds. 

Knowing Ace and the thought he has put into selecting young birds, he will also be successful at selecting breeders. 

I do agree that taking yourself out of the picture is a true test of the birds. Flying 70 young birds this year without training a single one is a true test of my birds. I had a bird sitting in a loft for who knows how long this weekend before the guy checked the loft for the first time. I also had birds circle for 10 minutes at a loft before trapping. Many were lost in training by beginning fanciers. Winning here is a challenge. 

Ace did bring out the best in all the birds he flew. My thoughts are that he could run a futurity better than most. He has taken birds from numerous fanciers and made winners out of them. I would not doubt if he won the big one this weekend. My thoughts are that he could do it with any bird in the loft. 

Randy


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## bloodlines_365

excellent job with excellent results!!!! con grats...... i agree both of you guys....


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## ace in the hole

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Congradulations Ace !!
> 
> Are you feeling confident enough to move beyond the local races to the One Loft arena ? Any idea what events you might consider ?
> 
> I suspect that you are a fast study, and have contributed greatly to your bird's racing performance this season. With local races where you are the handler, it's more a test of your handling skills, then a test of the birds, at least that is my perspective. If you take yourself out of the picture, as in a One Loft event, then the birds are able to be tested side by side with other racers and one can compare apples to apples.



Yes, I see you are a fast study as well. If I was going to the one loft races with my birds I would be putting them in some money races next year. lol I do have some real good birds, but I do not have the parents to alot of those birds. Of the breeders I have that have produced winners I will need to see them repeat that next year before I can say I trust that pair enough to send their young off to the money races.

My focus next year is again going to be my local club and combine. I will also send a few birds off to other club's auction races who accept out of area birds.

Hey Warren, Just a thought! If you want to put a pair or two in a good one loft race next year, I have a loft you can put them in. It would be a good test for them. I will be producing more of my own birds as well as recieving a few birds from some of the same people and a few other top flyers. 

Ace


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Ace has definitely proved his worth as a trainer of young birds. Keep in mind that the results go beyond the club and into the Michigan Combine. Here his birds are tested against tougher competition. We also have to keep in mind that birds from Larry Fatalski, Richard Clark, Ken Munson and Ed Minvielle etc are not just run of the mill barn birds.
> 
> Knowing Ace and the thought he has put into selecting young birds, he will also be successful at selecting breeders.
> 
> I do agree that taking yourself out of the picture is a true test of the birds. Flying 70 young birds this year without training a single one is a true test of my birds. I had a bird sitting in a loft for who knows how long this weekend before the guy checked the loft for the first time. I also had birds circle for 10 minutes at a loft before trapping. Many were lost in training by beginning fanciers. Winning here is a challenge.
> 
> Ace did bring out the best in all the birds he flew. My thoughts are that he could run a futurity better than most. He has taken birds from numerous fanciers and made winners out of them. I would not doubt if he won the big one this weekend. My thoughts are that he could do it with any bird in the loft.
> 
> Randy


Randy, 

You and Warren are both right. I put it on a post once and then deleted it! *The Ace In The Hole from day one has always been me.* If we were having an elephant toss I would find a way to toss my elephant farther than yours. That's just the way I am made. Now with that in mind. You could say that this year I only learned how to toss an elephant. Next year I plan to toss it.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Great point made by Ace about wanting to establish a family of tested breeders before sending them to One Loft races. Only having a few breeding pairs this year and not breeding yet from the winning birds leads to some unknown. Having been back in pigeons for four breeding seasons now, I am feeling a bit more comfortable about which birds I would send out to races. If the money looks right this spring, I may send a few out this year. 

On they other hand, a race like the AU or other lesser expensive races might be a good test to try some birds out. I sent 16 birds out my third year of breeding to lesser expensive futurities and one loft venues. It is also nice to have a one loft winner in the loft. It was a good test for the birds. A three to five race series would be a good test for a few birds. 

As for sending and testing more birds with ACE, my thoughts are that he still does not have birds from three of my key pair. I did send him breeders off of them, but not racers. Their young were not ready in time this year. I will most likely be sending out 6 or 8 to fly with him next year. Assuming that they lay soon enough. I will need to address my light issue to get them on eggs sooner. 

This year, I will start sooner and raise three rounds from most pairs. I am getting a bigger demand for birds from the Albuquerque fliers and newbees in the post and across the country. I am also thinking that after four years, I now can raise birds for stock off of key pairs and feel somewhat comfortable about quality. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

*Our auction races are all but over now.*

It was a hard race. Of 14 birds sent to the two races I had 5 on the day. That was much better than some! At 4 pm today I have 8 home now. 
I will be running the clock to the club in about an hour. 

The first bird in for the combine auction was 5494. I bred this bird from Hillfamilyloft's stock. It is not going to be first, but it may still be in the money. The combine pays out only 10 places.

I had only one club auction bird FM 5462. This bird as well was bred by me from Hillfamilyloft's stock. This bird I'm sure is in the money somewere. I know it is not on the top because I had KONA 254 come in 48 minutes ahead of her. 

This KONA 254 just might have a chance of winning this 323 mile race! Do any of you remember who this birds sibling is? Her sister is FM 5457 who was stocked for winning everything at the shot distances. 

We will see shortly how they did against the rest.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

*323 mile club & combine auction race*

*In the A race and combine auction race*

6th - FM 5494 - Bred by Ace In The Hole from Hillfamilyloft's stock

7th - FM 6103 - Bred by club member John Smith

16th - FM 5493 - Bred by Randy Hill, Hillfamilyloft's

The first two birds should take 8th & 9th in the north section combine action race. 

*In the B race and club auction race *

4th - KONA 254 - Bred by Ace In The Hole

10th - FM 5484 - Bred by Larry Fatalski 

16th - FM 5462 - Bred by Ace In The Hole from Hillfamilyloft's stock. This bird was my only club auction bird to make the race. I will find out next Saturday were the auction birds came in for sure. I am thinking he should be about 5th or 6th.

I would have to say the Hillfamilyloft's birds did well for me. Two of the three birds that made it into the money were from Randy Hill's stock. 

Thank you Randy,

Mark / Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Maybe they won you enough money to buy a bag of feed. Better yet a tank of gas.

I got the results back from the ABQ race. They had another good race. From 125 miles they had 355 birds in the race. 244 were home by noon. The long enders took the race. I was at the liberation and the difference was the six minutes the birds circled. This hurt the short guys. My first bird in was 37th. It was flown by one of the shortest distance fliers. They had five repeat birds in the top 10%. Last weeks winner was 61st this week. This weeks winner was 18th last week. Highly competitive and great returns. My birds should get stronger with distance. Hopefully they will rise to the top the further we go. They like the 300 mile events into ABQ.

Warren you might want to follow Ludo 843 bred by Cliff Baynon from NY. It is out of his Ludos. It has finished 20th and 6th.

Results
www.loslobosrpc.com

Randy


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## ohiogsp

Ace was this your last race? Looks like tad did pretty good. I will see how his birds do for me in the long one next weekend here. Congrats on a great year. I hope next one will be better for me. With the addition of some nice birds and knowing what ones will be pumpers for next year should help alot.


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## ace in the hole

ohiogsp said:


> Ace was this your last race? Looks like tad did pretty good. I will see how his birds do for me in the long one next weekend here. Congrats on a great year. I hope next one will be better for me. With the addition of some nice birds and knowing what ones will be pumpers for next year should help alot.


Yes, this was our last race. As for Tad doing well on this race. This is what he breeds for and what his whole young bird season is all about. As he told me " This is the race that counts". Just so everyone can see what I mean here is how this race ended.

*The -A- Our Combine Auction Race / 323 miles*


Tad sent 8 birds, I sent 4 and Kim sent 9 birds.

1st. Tad Filiczkowski ( 343 miles for Tad )
2nd. Tad
3rd. Tad
4th. Tad
5th. Kim Aldrich ( Last year Kim was the man to beat.)
6th. Ace In The Hole
7th Ace In The Hole
8th. Kim Aldrich
9th. Kim Aldrich
10th. John Smith


*The -B- Club and Combine Race & Club Auction Race *

Tad sent 20 birds, I sent 10 and Ed sent 12 birds.

1st. Tad Filiczkowski
2nd. Tad
3rd. Tad
4th. Ace In The Hole
5th. Tad
6th. Tad
7th. Ed Koehn
8th. Tad
9th. Tad
10th. Ace In the Hole


As you can see Tad's birds are bred for it. Good luck on this upcoming race. Let us know how it turns out.

Ace


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## ohiogsp

I only had one auction bird and it did not come. I got 6th and 8th club/ 11th and 17th combine in our 320 (340 for me). The 8th bird was some of tads stuff. I had 2 more birds from tad in the race and even though one was real fast from 280 it did not return on the day. Sometimes you just can't pick em.


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## hillfamilyloft

these are some pictures I took at the LosLobos RPC 150 mile release. They are flying my direction this year and I will be able to see about four of the releases. This was about 15 miles from my house. So far the club is getting about 90% returns. This race had 360 birds.


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## hillfamilyloft

A few more pics


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## ohiogsp

I really like the first one.


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## Guest

looks like a great release spot nothing but wide open  thanks for sharing


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## hillfamilyloft

One advantage to living in the desert is that the birds can see forever. From this spot you can see the 200 mile and the 125 mile release spot. Makes for good racing. One advantage is that the Hawks can see the birds coming for miles. The speeds this week were just under 1300 ypm with a 6-10 mile head wind. The trailer was emptied out in under a minute with only two birds that did not want to come out. They all wanted to fly. I am waiting for results to see how my birds are doing. There is a lot of quality birds and good competition this season. No one has won two races yet. Only three birds after the first two races were in the top 10 twice. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

That is a disadvantage about the hawks. Sorry about the mistake. 

Randy


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## Guest

yes I was thinking that at least the birds there could see the hawks coming at them as well is being a plus but the fact that they are out in the open is always a downside as well .. here we have so many trees its a negative from the point of release so at least there you have that advantage to begin with which is something we dont have but I still hope they all make it home safe and sound no matter what


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## hillfamilyloft

An update on the pictured race last weekend. I finally broke into the top 10% at 27th and 28th. They guy flying the birds is the short ender. I expect the birds he is flying will get further up the sheet as they get further. My mentor Vern Crawley has a solid white bird that took 18th this week. Not bad for a white bird - Ha Ha. His whites are Ganus based. You guys looking for white birds may give him a call.

I did have the first bird in 3 different lofts last week. My hope is that these guys will win a race for me. The three races have brought a new winner each time. No bird has been in the top 10 more than twice. This has been a competitive series so far. The winner this week was 15th in the 150 mile World Ace Challenge this week. There is some quality birds flying.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Well the ABQ 200 mile race was flown Monday due to bad weather. It was a crazy race, 200 of the 288 birds flew over 1300 ypm. 244 were clocked before 2 pm. The birds were liberated at 7:45. The good news is that I had the second bird clocked in the winners loft. I also had the first bird in two different lofts. The bad news is that I was 11 minutes to win, 60th place at 1423 ypm. I learned that my birds do not like blow home races. My thoughts are also that they are second round youngsters and may be getting into the molt pretty heavily. The club has had four races with four different winners. The 250 is this weekend and the 300 the week after. They will drop back to 150 and 200 after that.

Randy


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## ace in the hole

*Hillfamilyloft's 2008 Race Report From The Frankenmuth Club*

All in all I think Randy's birds did well. The following is a list of birds and how they placed this year. 

FM 5491 1st, 2nd, 12th.

FM 5465 1st club & N. section combine, 13th and my first bird to the loft.

FM 5453 1st club & N. section combine, 16th

FM 5462 2nd club & N. section combine, 8th, 9th, 16th club and 5th. place club auction race at 323 miles.

FM 5493 2nd club & N. section combine, 3rd, 16th club and 20th combine auction race.

FM 5496 3rd, 32nd but my first bird to the loft.

FM 5495 4th, 7th and then he hit a wire ending his season.

FM 5494 6th club at 323 miles. He came in 8th in the N. section combine auction race.

I am very glad to have these birds in my loft. For next year I will be crossing some of these birds with top birds from other lofts. 

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Well about the time I was feeling down about my birds in ABQ, I get some news today about last weeks winner Miller 166. The bird won against 280 birds. It was off of a bird I sent him in 2007 that raced well for him. I did not raise the bird, but it half from my stock. The Dam is DRO 821. Her brother DRO 820 won this years old bird 250 mile race. 821 flew well its young bird season. The 250 is today, so we will see how the birds did. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

That was Mill 677. I had the band number wrong. For those who are following the races at:

www.loslobosrpc.com

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Well about the time I was feeling down about my birds in ABQ, I get some news today about last weeks winner Miller 166. The bird won against 280 birds. It was off of a bird I sent him in 2007 that raced well for him. I did not raise the bird, but it half from my stock. The Dam is DRO 821. Her brother DRO 820 won this years old bird 250 mile race. 821 flew well its young bird season. The 250 is today, so we will see how the birds did.
> 
> Randy







Hello Randy,

I would not feel down about performance which does not measure up. I personally have learned more from my failures then my successes. The fact that a bird which is only half of your family line, and has done well in a race with 280 birds in a club/combine type of race, means that you are at least 1/2 right on the club/combine level ! 

Several weeks ago in a One Loft money race called the Pa. Dutch Classic, http://padutchclassic.com/downloads/300PaDutch08.pdf by the time of the 300 mile race, only 134 birds out of 300 remained, because of some hard smash races. I only placed 6th in the money, and 35th out of the remaining 134 birds entered, with only like 41 day birds. These birds were only 1/2 Smith's, the other half of this cross was Ad Schaerlaeckens, so not a 100% success, even if these birds did beat bird's bred by Mike Ganus, Crazy Al and others. Some day, I won't need the outside cross to be into the money.

So hang in there, the glass is really half full, and not half empty !


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## hillfamilyloft

The 250 mile race results are in and my first bird was 20th of 278 birds from Monticello UT. Back in the top 10 %. I had 4 birds in the top 20%. The futurity is next week at 300 miles from Moab UT. 

As for the bloodline of my side of MILL 677 that won last week, they have done real well for me. The foundation is Vic Miller x Full Janssen. Not only DRO 820 and 821 (see there results on my web page) but also my equal first in the Alaska Futurity. Ed the sire, a sister Mrs. N, and half sister Marauder are responsible for many wins for me. 200 to 250 is their strength. I will bring back youngsters off of both 820 and 821 into my breeding loft. This is what I call my speed family. They are not limited to shorter distances but mainly hit at around 200 miles. This blood did very well for ACE. 

I am trying now to develop a sprint family from 100-200. I want on the top of those race sheets. I am focusing on my new Berkmoes bird and my Van Reet x Vic Miller pair that won me High Points bird in old birds. The Berkmoes bird is Marcellis bloodline. He was the king of the sprints in Belgium. 

My third family is my Futurity family 300 mile birds. It is said that you need horses for the courses. A range of birds is good for the club and combine races. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

The 300 mile futurity was this weekend from Moab UT. I had a bird 1410 finish 5th in the overall race and 3rd in the futurity. I also had a bird finish 22nd in the race out of 270 birds. Finally two birds in the top 10%. Not bad for only having about 10 birds shipped. 

For ACE's info. 1410 was bred off a sister to Buzz's Perfection. She and B.P. are siblings to Last years Bond Race winner in ABQ. The sire was the new bird I got from Vern. He is a son of Vern's "08" crossed with a 969 Janssen WOW bird from DTL stock. He is a half uncle to Buzz. Buzz has sired me a 300 mile winner, a bond race winner 200 miles, and now grandsire to 1410. His resume is growing. He is also a brother to my Grand Junction Futurity winner. 

The 20th bird from Monticello and the 22nd bird from Moab are siblings to 5495 that ACE flew this year. This is speed blood from Ed and Mrs. N. 

Two more ABQ races from 150 and 200. I will recap how the Hill birds did after that. As of now 13 birds have had to 10% finishes from this years young birds out of 10 different breeding pairs. 28 total birds made it to first race out of 71 birds. 42 birds were bred by me and sent to ABQ and 16 to ACE. ACE bred 12 birds from Hillfamily stock. One fancier I sent around 8 birds to could not fly this year. With limits on birds this year in ABQ, I think not all birds are seeing action. At least not every race. My thoughts are about 50% of eligible birds made the first race. About 20% finished in the top 10%.

My goal is to work toward more relyability in my birds. My goal is more birds going to the 300 mile money races. What few get there do very well.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

This week from Cortez, I was 11th out of 252 birds at 1454 ypm. Not bad considering two fanciers are kicking all the butts. My thoughts here is that they have the superior methods. 1408 is a grandkid off of both Ed and Mrs. N. Off of two cousins. 1408 flew in the top 10% twice. He was sandwiched between the two top fanciers this week from the short end loft. I have that family honed in from 200 miles. Ace has two brothers to the Dam of 1408 off my Ikon/Magic Star bloodline. The Sire is off Ed and Charlotte. 

The club is flying a 400 this weekend and I think I might have a few birds in the race. I will keep you posted. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

After the last race this weekend, I will give a recap of the season with the pros and cons, what I did right and wrong, the ideas I have for next year etc. I have learned much this season from my birds and those who have been flying them. Maybe those of you who do not have clubs to fly with can learn from the post. With the help of ACE and the guys in ABQ, I will not have any problem finding guys to fly my birds. 

Thanks to All

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Thought some of you might want to watch this youtube video of the 300 mile release our club did. The best way is to link to their webpage and hit the link to the video on the homepage. 

www.loslobosrpc.com

Randy


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## TAWhatley

hillfamilyloft said:


> Thought some of you might want to watch this youtube video of the 300 mile release our club did. The best way is to link to their webpage and hit the link to the video on the homepage.
> 
> www.loslobosrpc.com
> 
> Randy


Nice video, Randy. I am not a racing person so am asking a stupid question .. the birds seem to circle and then figure out which way to head .. is that how it really is?

Terry


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## hillfamilyloft

This lot of birds usually circles once or twice and then zig zags toward home. The longer you let the birds orient or settle them the less time they circle on average. These birds sat in the same location over night. I was at three releases during the season and this was a typical release. 

Randy


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## TAWhatley

hillfamilyloft said:


> This lot of birds usually circles once or twice and then zig zags toward home. The longer you let the birds orient or settle them the less time they circle on average. These birds sat in the same location over night. I was at three releases during the season and this was a typical release.
> 
> Randy


Thanks, Randy .. it's quite interesting to me. 

Terry


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## hillfamilyloft

This year I will be continuing with the Hill Family Loft young bird thread. I have birds going out to locations around the country. I will be flying in combines and clubs this year. The budget does not allow for one loft races this year. I will also be breeding some birds for ACE and sending them off to fly. I will keep everyone posted on how they do. I will keep ACE posted on how they are doing on the thread. 

The latest news at Hill Family Loft came from Glen Gleeson with the Grand Junction Club. I left four birds for him to fly as old birds with their club, left over from the one loft race he held. One bird 1309 down from my Vic Miller x Van Reet pair was first in the 200 mile race. I was also pleased to hear that the bird helped him win average speed. The bird was also home on the day and 9th at 400 and a next day bird on their 540 mile race. Not bad for a Van Reet sprint bird. Must be the Vic Miller in her. 

I have 14 banded and some newly hatched babies. I had some clear eggs due to the weather and fat breeders. The babies look great and will be shipped out soon. The Albuquerque club is growing and looking forward to Old Bird season. I still have 8 or 10 old birds flying with them this year. They are looking at about 25 members and 500 birds a race for young birds. Try and get a few of Ace's birds in the series. 

Two of the three pairs of Ace's are building nests. The younger pair is settling in. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Two of Ace's pairs laid the 14th. The other younger pair is acting like they are getting interested in the nest box. Hopefully they will lay shortly. My thoughts are now that the older cocks are down on the nests that the younger one will start treading the hen better. They seem happy and healthy. May have a chance to put these in an auction race in ABQ. 

Randy


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## Guest

hope everything works out good for you and that you can put those babys to good use when they arrive and reach their potential  good luck


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## hillfamilyloft

Well this years young birds will be pretty exciting. I am finally flying a full team in partnership with Steve Guzman in Albuquerque. I will have over 20 birds to start the team along with about 8 bred from Ace's stock a few from Vern Crawley and a small group from Steve. 

I am also flying with Fastpitch Dad and Becky in NC. We have about 30 birds flying with them. See their thread as the year progresses. 

I have also placed other birds in different lofts in Albuquerque. 

I have kept a team of about 30 to fly around the house and train out to about 150 miles. 

I will continue this thread to let you know how they are doing. I am currently breeding my home team and sending the last birds out to Albuquerque. For those flying young birds, keep us posted on how you are doing this year. Albuquerque is wrapping up a hurvy curvy old bird season. I will let you know how the Hill birds did. I had a few equal firsts and should have some birds up there in the standings. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Just found out that the first bird in at the Spirit of Colorado bred by Fernando Garcia was off a hen that I gave him in 2007 off of my Tiger and Big Bertha. Some of you are flying this blood and thought you might like to know. We will see how it does in the money races comming up.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Playing with Photoshop a bit. Just a begginer, but so far it is pretty cool. 
Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Just found out that the first bird in at the Spirit of Colorado bred by Fernando Garcia was off a hen that I gave him in 2007 off of my Tiger and Big Bertha. Some of you are flying this blood and thought you might like to know. We will see how it does in the money races comming up.
> 
> Randy


I had Fernando's last name wrong, it is Montoya. After two races, if my calculations are right a bird from Vern Crawley LL 609 that was 10th and 20th respectivly is leading the race in points. The second race was a tough one with only 48 day birds

Randy


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## Timber

hillfamilyloft said:


> Playing with Photoshop a bit. Just a begginer, but so far it is pretty cool.
> Randy


Hey Randy,

Its great to read about your success thus far with your birds. Im hopeful that the hen I have from you , by the way of Mark (Ace in the Hole), will turn out to be a great breeder for us here in FLA. Thanks so much for the information you provided. We are about 5 weeks away from our "opener" of the YB season and Im all excited for it to finally be here! I hope that you share as many results from your birds and the birds others are flying in your behalf with us here on the forum. As things play out, maybe we can work something out to bring some 2010 HFL birds here to Ocala....

~Brian


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## hillfamilyloft

Always looking for a test for the birds. I will have a few new young pairs next year that I will need to test. I am also blending in some of Mark's blood and a few outside birds next year.


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## Guest

hillfamilyloft said:


> Playing with Photoshop a bit. Just a begginer, but so far it is pretty cool.
> Randy












this bird looks awesome .. love it love it love it


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## hillfamilyloft

I raced him in Grand Junction. When I went to pick him up it was during their annual show in November. He was molting a few flights and tail feathers. I decided to enter him in the flying young cock category. There were about 50 birds put in the cage. He was taken out when they were down to 4 birds so he did not win a prize. The judge was Freddy Rivera. He told me that if he was not in the molt that he would have won the category easily. Nice to have a birds that looks good and races good also. His sister is my best looking bird.

Randy


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## Guest

hillfamilyloft said:


> I raced him in Grand Junction. When I went to pick him up it was during their annual show in November. He was molting a few flights and tail feathers. I decided to enter him in the flying young cock category. There were about 50 birds put in the cage. He was taken out when they were down to 4 birds so he did not win a prize. The judge was Freddy Rivera. He told me that if he was not in the molt that he would have won the category easily. Nice to have a birds that looks good and races good also. His sister is my best looking bird.
> 
> Randy


so now we cant wait to see a pic of his sister hehe


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## hillfamilyloft

LokotaLoft said:


> so now we cant wait to see a pic of his sister hehe


She is the hen on the first page of my webpage at the top. She is on the nest. There is also a pic of her in the pictures, same pic not so distorted. One of these days I will take pics of my key breeders. She bred a combine winner flown by Mark. Her other brother is "Buzz" my best cock bird. Five of the siblings are in my breeding loft. I plan to add two more cocks next year. 

Randy


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## Timber

hillfamilyloft said:


> Always looking for a test for the birds. I will have a few new young pairs next year that I will need to test. I am also blending in some of Mark's blood and a few outside birds next year.


Sounds good. Let me know. Yeah Mark want a set of youngsters from the pair I got from him so we will probably exchange some young at that time, so I can further test my own.


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## JohnG

look at my team maybe it can help


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## Guest

hillfamilyloft said:


> She is the hen on the first page of my webpage at the top. She is on the nest. There is also a pic of her in the pictures, same pic not so distorted. One of these days I will take pics of my key breeders. She bred a combine winner flown by Mark. Her other brother is "Buzz" my best cock bird. Five of the siblings are in my breeding loft. I plan to add two more cocks next year.
> 
> Randy


she is a mighty fine specimen you have there ... I have a hen thats a daughter to a diploma winner too that looks alot like her and looks very awesome like your bird too, she could win some shows for looks alone thou I was afraid to fly her and lose her to the hawks around this area ..shes one of my babys and I will never let her take to the air cuz Im not willing to lose a bird that looks that good lol


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## MaryOfExeter

Nice picture of Maverick  Did you have to erase all the background by hand? I hate that part...takes too long and I'm not mouse-steady enough, haha.


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## hillfamilyloft

MaryOfExeter said:


> Nice picture of Maverick  Did you have to erase all the background by hand? I hate that part...takes too long and I'm not mouse-steady enough, haha.


I did erase the background. The trick is to blow up the picture and use a small eraser. I need to learn how to crop out just the picture. I think I need to use a pen instead of the eraser. If someone has done this feel free to interject. I think a few of the birds in NC are off of Maverick. I will have to look. 

Randy


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## ohiogsp

In photoshop there is a "magic extractor" tool that pulls stuff on the page like a bird. It needs fine tuning sometimes but it is a really good tool.


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## hillfamilyloft

I talked to my mentor Vern Crawley today about the Spirit of Colorado. Fernando's bird who won the 150 mile race was a grandson from my Tiger. He is a full Engels bird. Tiger's brother was 2nd at the 200 Spirit race in 2004. After two races Vern is 2nd in the points finishing 10th the first race and 20th the second. He looked up the pedigree for the bird and found out that it was from the same Engels bird Tiger was from. As for horses for the courses we might be on to something here. We will have to see how it does on the 300. 

Randy


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## JohnG

Are they good ones i just got them Belg 02 6121685 flor engels shiva' j&j engels hen
the coc is belg 95 6508036 flor engels de 036 g/ son of den 31fnd.coc are they good birds .Iwill bred them next year.hope to get some good ones off them let me know if you know this family of birds


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## hillfamilyloft

My Engels is Via CBS. Also down from Den 31 and also Den Dikkie. He is like a small football. Barrel shaped small and stout. I am breeding from four of his offspring. Only weakness I have found is that after about 250m I loose birds out of the bloodline. They win races, but need to toughen them up. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

If you question weather or not I can fly birds spend a little time going through this thread from the beginning through the race results.

Mark/Ace


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## skyrider

*Breeding matrix*

does anyone know of a breeding matrix,when to put pairs together,when they will lay and when to wean to ship to OLR's? I had seen one before but not sure who had put it together?


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## ace in the hole

skyrider said:


> does anyone know of a breeding matrix,when to put pairs together,when they will lay and when to wean to ship to OLR's? I had seen one before but not sure who had put it together?


Put your pairs together 60 to 65 days before you plan to ship for the OLR. They should lay the first egg within ten days. Wean at 26 to 28 days and ship to OLR at 32 to 35 days.


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## ace in the hole

Thanks for bringing up this old thread. I went back through and read quite a bit of it. This will be my first year racing since 2008 and I am ready...


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## SouthTown Racers

ace in the hole said:


> Thanks for bringing up this old thread. I went back through and read quite a bit of it. This will be my first year racing since 2008 and I am ready...


Do you have that red on eggs yet? What do you think of her?


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## ejb3810

Southtown, was it not you that posted a breeding chart that showed pairing dates, lay date, hatch date and weaning dates on it? I know that I saw it somewhere, and I thought it was on pigeon talk or southtowns site?


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## SouthTown Racers

ejb3810 said:


> Southtown, was it not you that posted a breeding chart that showed pairing dates, lay date, hatch date and weaning dates on it? I know that I saw it somewhere, and I thought it was on pigeon talk or southtowns site?


I have it..let me see if I can post it.


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## SouthTown Racers

I cant figure out how to post it. If you PM Kastle Lofts, Im pretty sure he has it and knows how to share it.


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## ace in the hole

SouthTown Racers said:


> Do you have that red on eggs yet? What do you think of her?


She left the mate I had put here with and has paired with 2013 1577. A cock that flew well for *Eric K* this last year and was on the drop on the 300 mile bond race. He is driving her now so I expect eggs in a day or two.

I call her "Little Red" because she is so small. All three of the overly inbred Hollywood are too small. If I can not produce larger birds by crossing them out to mine they will be of no use to me or anyone. 46 is a cock and is no bigger than my smallest hen.


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## ssyyb2

ace in the hole said:


> She left the mate I had put here with and has paired with 2013 1577. A cock that flew well for *Eric K* this last year and was on the drop on the 300 mile bond race. He is driving her now so I expect eggs in a day or two.
> 
> I call her "Little Red" because she is so small. All three of the overly inbred Hollywood are too small. If I can not produce larger birds by crossing them out to mine they will be of no use to me or anyone. 46 is a cock and is no bigger than my smallest hen.


If I'm not mistaken one of Ron's inbred Rr flew very well for Matt in 2012? I thought it was inbred. I might be mistaken. However I will say I have a black who's mom is one of those inbred Rr and he is a big boy and his kids fly like the wind!


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## SouthTown Racers

ace in the hole said:


> She left the mate I had put here with and has paired with 2013 1577. A cock that flew well for *Eric K* this last year and was on the drop on the 300 mile bond race. He is driving her now so I expect eggs in a day or two.
> 
> I call her "Little Red" because she is so small. All three of the overly inbred Hollywood are too small. If I can not produce larger birds by crossing them out to mine they will be of no use to me or anyone. 46 is a cock and is no bigger than my smallest hen.


In my opinion, that was pretty much an A-hole thing to say!! Im not sure you are a good judge of quality because they are perfectly built and are the perfect racing size....Good luck sir!!


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## SouthTown Racers

.......and as far as 46 goes, he is off of one of my foundation cocks who is also smaller in size yet he bred the 2nd place combine champion bird last year who was only a couple of points behind the 1st place champion bird (also mine, also related to 46 and also smaller in size) and with one less race flown!! So, again, I question your knowledge of quality of bird and how "useful" they are!


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## ace in the hole

SouthTown Racers said:


> .......and as far as 46 goes, he is off of one of my foundation cocks who is also smaller in size yet he bred the 2nd place combine champion bird last year who was only a couple of points behind the 1st place champion bird (also mine, also related to 46 and also smaller in size) and with one less race flown!! So, again, I question your knowledge of quality of bird and how "useful" they are!


I did not lash out at you. You knew they were small when you sold them to me (I did not). They are built well. I didn't say they weren't. They are too small and that is a fact. If I didn't think they may be of use and may cross well with mine I would not have paired them together. If you thought they were so great and perfect you would not have sold them... Never mind, I no longer care what you think.


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## Kastle Loft

Breeding cycle calendar pdf download can be found here:

http://bit.ly/1iWFcof


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## SouthTown Racers

ace in the hole said:


> I did not lash out at you. You knew they were small when you sold them to me (I did not). They are built well. I didn't say they weren't. They are too small and that is a fact. If I didn't think they may be of use and may cross well with mine I would not have paired them together. If you thought they were so great and perfect you would not have sold them... Never mind, I no longer care what you think.


I bet you 9 out of 10 pigeon guys would be completely happy with the size of those birds-it blows my mind that you are not!! If you want to throw chicken sized race birds down the race course, then like I said, good luck sir!! 

No, you didnt lash out at me, you just publicly trashed my birds....if you werent happy with the birds that I sold you for half of what they are worth, then PM me and let me know. I would have happily returned your money!!


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## ssyyb2

ace in the hole said:


> I did not lash out at you. You knew they were small when you sold them to me (I did not). They are built well. I didn't say they weren't. They are too small and that is a fact. If I didn't think they may be of use and may cross well with mine I would not have paired them together. If you thought they were so great and perfect you would not have sold them... Never mind, I no longer care what you think.


Wow really ya he thinks their complete garbage that is why he went out of his way to ask about them! Don't judge a bird by its size judge it by the race sheet!  stupidest comments ever grow up


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## ace in the hole

I hope this ped can be read. Hollywood in there 7 times, bred to his daughter 3 times. When you inbreed this much you will start getting smaller birds. The best thing to do with birds this inbred is to cross them out. 

93 is bred to a large white grizzle Golden Mattens cock.

Rec. Red 69 to 1577. 69 and 93 are sisters.

46 will set it out until I see what the others do.


View attachment 29392


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## ace in the hole

Here is 46's ped. Just so your not playing me as a fool here. I wanted to point out his father you spoke off. He is not all inbred Hollywood as the others are. He is 1/2 inbred "Hollywood", 1/4 "Aviatar" and 1/4 "Golden Mattens"

About 9 out of 10 flyers being happy with these birds! True, because 9 out of 10 flyers have no idea how to breed to improve there family of birds.

View attachment 29393


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## ace in the hole

Man, All I said was they are to small...


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## SouthTown Racers

Just drop it Ace! All you are doing by showing the pedigrees, is showing everybody that you got some really nice birds for dirt cheap, rock bottom prices! If you knew that these birds were inbred, and you know that inbreds are smaller, then why would you come on here and publicly smash them for being small and of no use?!?! I don't appreciate it at all especially after all the emails, help, and advise I gave in order to help your significant other get you a nice Christmas gift (the rec red) ..... This is unbelievable!! Just drop it guy!


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## Brown Family Lofts

Way stick up for your birds south town. Ace if ya not happy with them I take them just ship them on up to indiana. Birds might be small but they apparently win which in the end is all that matters.


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## ssyyb2

Brown Family Lofts said:


> Way stick up for your birds south town. Ace if ya not happy with them I take them just ship them on up to indiana. Birds might be small but they apparently win which in the end is all that matters.


Quoted for truth my friend!!! Let me hit the like button!


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## ace in the hole

Ok so in your mind I trashed all of your birds and your breeding program because I stated the fact that these inbred birds are small. I was not trying to attack you or your birds. You asked what I thought of them and I told you. Enough said.

Mark/Ace

OVER & OUT


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## SouthTown Racers

ace in the hole said:


> Ok so in your mind I trashed all of your birds and your breeding program because I stated the fact that these inbred birds are small. I was not trying to attack you or your birds. You asked what I thought of them and I told you. Enough said.
> 
> Mark/Ace
> 
> OVER & OUT


Good enough. Good luck to you.


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## The_Rookie

You guys can ship it to me if you guys don't want it. New flyer would happily take it and breed off of it.


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## First To Hatch




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## ssyyb2

First To Hatch said:


>


Brick killed a man!


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## West

I'm confused at what "too small" is. Especially for one who aims to breed for the long YB races. Most of the top scoring OLR birds that I've handled are on the small side.


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## hillfamilyloft

This is a Goldilocks issue. I think everyone has their ideal as far as birds go. I think it was Scherlaekens who said that it is easier to like the confirmation, size etc of your birds than to not. It is a bonus if you they also win. I am happy with both confirmation and results of my birds. I think each flier if they constantly assess their birds and only keep the best will eventually find birds that look similar. Both Southtown and Ace have quality families of birds that win. I would expect if Southtown had a birds off Mark's 620 he would probably think it was big and cross it in with his family. I think we all know what we like. 620 is a bit big in my book. I did not discount her quality, just crossed her in with mine. Funny how the birds in my loft with her bloodline look just like mine. 
Mark probably the most selective fancier that I know when it comes to confirmation and having his theory. I would not hesitate to take birds from both Southtown or Ace. Both quality. Eventually their blood would mix in and look just like what I like, "Just right"


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## Xueoo

I have old line Oak Haven Van Loons and 019 Janssens. The Van Loons are small overall, especially the hens. The Janssens are big, both sexes. 

The best birds I've had in my own loft are the smaller one's...of any breed. Small/medium is my preference. Small and compact.


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