# ACV/ garlic



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

Okay I've read alot about Apple cider vinegar and garlic .. the general feeling is that it is good for pigeons ... but no one really gives a correct dose .. and if u can mix them together and if u can "over do it" ... help lol


----------



## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

Yes you can mix ACV and garlic together. I generally mince or finely chop 3-4 cloves of garlic and put in a 2 liter jug of jedds AVC. I dont think you can over do it but I'm not sure on that one. I give 2 tbs. of the mixed ACV per gal. of water twice a week. Try it you will see a difference..

Hank


----------



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

1-2 tablespoons per gallon of water with the ACV Monday and Tuesday. 3 cloves of garlic per gallon Wednesday and Thursday. Fresh water the rest of the week. The idea is to help rid of bad bacteria fungus and germs in the digestive system with the ACV and the garlic to help build a good clean digestive system.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

TylerBro said:


> Okay I've read alot about Apple cider vinegar and garlic .. the general feeling is that it is good for pigeons ... but no one really gives a correct dose .. and if u can mix them together and if u can "over do it" ... help lol


here is some advice on garlic, I would not give it with the ACV, the ACV has natural enzymes and feeds good bacteria in the gut... here is a link for you to read.

http://www.pigeonbooks.com/index.php?r=14&c=73&l=en


----------



## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

Just because someone doesnt do it themselves doesnt mean dont try it..I was told this little trick of mixing ACV and garlic cloves by a master breeder that always seems to win or place in every show he enters. If he can win reserve grand champion in San Diego it cant be all that bad on your birds. If its good enough for a master breeder its good enough for me..

Hank


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

hankabus said:


> Just because someone doesnt do it themselves doesnt mean dont try it..I was told this little trick of mixing ACV and garlic cloves by a master breeder that always seems to win or place in every show he enters. If he can win reserve grand champion in San Diego it cant be all that bad on your birds. If its good enough for a master breeder its good enough for me..
> 
> Hank


guess you did not read the article... the garlic is an antibiotic..so why would you want to give it only to kill the good things that the ACV has..? each has their own use and together may effect what you want it to do to begin with.


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

Yes that article had a lot of useful confusing info lol and I think its everyones own way Haha


----------



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Go with what you feel is right and if it isn't then try another option! hehehe.....

I haven't heard anything bad about ACV or Garlic either way....just good things. So I think either approach will do but if you ask which is better then you'll have to find that out for yourself...


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

Lol sounds like I need more then 8 pigeons just to drink all this water Haha


----------



## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

I see Spirit and I have different views about mixing the 2. And there is nothing wrong with her view or mine. There is no doubt Spirit knows a ton and has a lot of respect from myself and most people on this forum. All I'm saying is I have been mixing for quite a while, the birds look great! I just followed advice from a breeder that also knows his stuff. I must add however I have a regime that I follow that includes probiotics twice a week, pigeon tea, or Natural Antwerp Naturaline 15 twice a week as well. All I can say if you feel comfortable with trying it then try it I can assure you there will be no ill effects..

Regards 
Hank


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You can try following Dr. Walker's advice:http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Useofacids.html

or make it simple and just follow g0ldenb0y55's advice.

Acids do kill both good and bad bacteria, but the bad bacteria suffers the most because they don't like an acidic environment.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* Well I mix Garlic Juice, Braggs ACV, and Braggs Amino Acids. One or Two tbs of each,I give this for the first 2 days of the week Monday /Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday they get Friendly Bacteria on Thursday vitamins, Saturday and Sunday just water nothing added. This is the system that I used while I was racing, now I use the same system with my show birds.It has worked for me for well over 20 years.* GEORGE


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

Ic there is no set in stone answer .. and people have way different thoughts .. Humm


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't care what anyone wants to do...lol.. each thing you put in the water does something... just not sure if mixing changes that, I know that if I gave a probiotic I sure would not mix it with an antibiotic..lol.. I don't even give garlic..and have had the same "good results"..whatever that may be.. I guess healthy pigeons..lol..


----------



## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> I don't care what anyone wants to do...lol.. each thing you put in the water does something... just not sure if mixing changes that, I know that if I gave a probiotic I sure would not mix it with an antibiotic..lol.. I don't even give garlic..and have had the same "good results"..whatever that may be.. I guess healthy pigeons..lol..


Ample FRESH CLEAN water will go along way. But then you won't have a package arriving in the mail.


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Art Hees,one of the BEST racing pigeon men in the USA says.....
*ACV + GARLIC + ONIONS + LEMON *= healthy pigeons....All given at the same time.....WE must remember the old saying of (Too much of anything is no good)...For humans or pigeons....I think if you give the above mixture,one day a week,your OK......I think if you give ACV one day,and Garlic another day,your OK....Just don`t OVERDUE anything,including FEEDING....or TRAINING...or MEDICATING etc etc etc........Alamo


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Alamo said:


> Art Hees,one of the BEST racing pigeon men in the USA says.....
> *ACV + GARLIC + ONIONS + LEMON *= healthy pigeons....All given at the same time.....WE must remember the old saying of (Too much of anything is no good)...For humans or pigeons....I think if you give the above mixture,one day a week,your OK......I think if you give ACV one day,and Garlic another day,your OK....Just don`t OVERDUE anything,including FEEDING....or TRAINING...or MEDICATING etc etc etc........Alamo


oh Lordy!... onion is listed as number 4 on the top 10 toxic foods for birds.. people will believe anything if they think it will give their birds an edge...you can spend bundles on "stuff" to put in water on food .. in a pill etc...


just to let folks know... quote;

"4. Onions
While the use of limited amounts of onion or garlic powders as flavorings is generally regarded as acceptable, excessive consumption of onions causes vomiting, diarrhea, and a host of other digestive problems. It has been found that prolonged exposure can lead to a blood condition called hemolytic anemia, which is followed by respiratory distress and eventual death."


"


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

SPRIT WINGS.....E-mail or call Art Hees....If you can`t win as many races,old birds or YB`s as he can,with the competion he has to fly against,then you will have to give this MAN his due respect,as I do.....Alamo


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

Lol hey everyone be nice lol .. and I think this is un answerable Haha


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

*Sorry folks*...I stand corrected on the Art Hees suggested items to be given....I have refreshed my memory(Boy is that hard to do when you are over 65).....The items I mentioned above ARE CORRECT.....The re-memory part is,he would only give this mixture in the water if he though the birds were a little off racing....He didn`t explain what a "little off" was,and how many days it was given...But I would take it as not more then a day or two...This is MY thought on the mix of items above......Alamo

PS: I have given my YB`s this mix a few times....They didn`t win and they didn`t die....And they are on my OB race team NOW.....


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

Do u have a link to his page ?


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Alamo said:


> SPRIT WINGS.....E-mail or call Art Hees....If you can`t win as many races,old birds or YB`s as he can,with the competion he has to fly against,then you will have to give this MAN his due respect,as I do.....Alamo


I don't care about a race or race results.. onions are listed as a poison in amounts not known as they did not say,.. this is FYI... just the messenger... did not make up the message.... sometimes when you have alot of birds things can get overlooked or mistaken for some other ailment.... and really ...I doubt if he stopped putting oinion in his bird's water he would start losing races..lol..


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Sprit Wings.....Read my RETHREAD on what he does...The post above which starts with SORRY FOLKS in red letters....And I don`t know if you just have pigeons in general,or you RACE pigeons....Art Hees is a RACING pigeon fancier...I pay attention to guys who race pigeons....I usally do not follow fancy pigeon guys thoughts on pigeons,because it`s a non-physical(for the birds that is) hobby for those who keep fancy birds....Unless they have tipplers or rollers that are raised to fly for hours.....I usally keep the articules in the RPD on top flyers,so I can MATCH what some of what they do...If two or three guys,who are All-American flyers,such as Art Hees,do the same thing,it must be correct for RACING PIGEONS,and NOT neccesary to do for fancy pigeons....Maybe that is a fact that is NOT being mentioned here in this thread....What might be good for fancy pigeons,might not be good for racing pigeons,and visa versa......Alamo


----------



## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> 1-2 tablespoons per gallon of water with the ACV Monday and Tuesday. 3 cloves of garlic per gallon Wednesday and Thursday. Fresh water the rest of the week. The idea is to help rid of bad bacteria fungus and germs in the digestive system with the ACV and the garlic to help build a good clean digestive system.


i just do 1 gug


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* Onion juice has been used by many of the pigeon people here in Southern California for many years * GEORGE


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Alamo said:


> Sprit Wings.....Read my RETHREAD on what he does...The post above which starts with SORRY FOLKS in red letters....And I don`t know if you just have pigeons in general,or you RACE pigeons....Art Hees is a RACING pigeon fancier...I pay attention to guys who race pigeons....I usally do not follow fancy pigeon guys thoughts on pigeons,because it`s a non-physical(for the birds that is) hobby for those who keep fancy birds....Unless they have tipplers or rollers that are raised to fly for hours.....I usally keep the articules in the RPD on top flyers,so I can MATCH what some of what they do...If two or three guys,who are All-American flyers,such as Art Hees,do the same thing,it must be correct for RACING PIGEONS,and NOT neccesary to do for fancy pigeons....Maybe that is a fact that is NOT being mentioned here in this thread....What might be good for fancy pigeons,might not be good for racing pigeons,and visa versa......Alamo


I would be remiss if I did not mention the onion toxic thing.. and have no experience bad or good with onion.. I just know that I would not give to my birds racers or not.. I just think some research should be done..on the good or the bad it may do to birds.. somewhere down the line someone had to think.. hey onions!..lets try that!...not sure what it does..but if they think it makes their birds..."better".. then great!.. I come from an aspect of working at a vet..so Iam leary about putting all kinds of elixiers in birds water..unless it is science behind it.. so that is where Im coming from with this onion thing.. we try to list poisons for cats dogs and birds.. and onion just so happens to be on the list for birds.. and really I never heard of pigeons in the wild eating onions.. but heck I could be wrong.


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

Lol idk I wonder what the dose is .. cuz if its a lot and toxic I don't get it and if its like a drop per gallon then I don't see the science for it .. Haha must be one of thos old timer things ..


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

George Simon says that in California,they have been using onion juice for years...I beleive Art Hees is/was from Ca.,but is now in Flordia flying in the GHC.......Alamo


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

*Onion is fine!*

Long ago I asked whether onion is ok to add. Well I have been warned by others not to put it. As a scientist I like to test things so I added it on my birds. They were fine! I now add it once a week. I just put couple of slices of them and put it in their drinker. They seem to look "better" (subjective).

I think as long as you don't overdo it, it is fine. Most of the medicine we give to our birds are more toxic. So as long as it they don't get overdose then there is no problem. They might even benefit from it.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Alamo said:


> Sprit Wings.....Read my RETHREAD on what he does...The post above which starts with SORRY FOLKS in red letters....And I don`t know if you just have pigeons in general,or you RACE pigeons....Art Hees is a RACING pigeon fancier...I pay attention to guys who race pigeons....I usally do not follow fancy pigeon guys thoughts on pigeons,because it`s a non-physical(for the birds that is) hobby for those who keep fancy birds....Unless they have tipplers or rollers that are raised to fly for hours.....I usally keep the articules in the RPD on top flyers,so I can MATCH what some of what they do...If two or three guys,who are All-American flyers,such as Art Hees,do the same thing,it must be correct for RACING PIGEONS,and NOT neccesary to do for fancy pigeons....Maybe that is a fact that is NOT being mentioned here in this thread....What might be good for fancy pigeons,might not be good for racing pigeons,and visa versa......Alamo


That is a fallacious argument. Because some champion guy does it doesn't make it necessarily right. Also fancy pigeons and sporting pigeons will respond the same to the same poison unless of course you are mentioning doses. A snake venom might kill a human, but a horse might develop immunity (that is how we get anti-venom from).

I think what spirit_wings was trying to say is to add some (warning/caution)knowledge to what we feed our birds. If we look at our own human medicine we usually see those warnings for example, too. I don't see nothing wrong with it.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

That is one of the laws of nature.

I would assume that anything given to or taken from a pigeon, will cause a positive and a negative action. If nothing else, let's say you give a pigeon something that will help it be healthier. Then if you stop giving that "thing", the bird is no longer as healthy as it previously was? Does the bird have withdrawels, such as a valium taking patient who stops getting valium? Does the bird become less capable in a race because you no longer give it garlic? Would the bird have been better off to have never been given garlic or ACV, and just brought into condition with training, good feed and good ventilation?

There are no for sure answers to the above, becuase they are not tested in laboratory conditions by scientists to figure this stuff out. Conditions in the field are haphazard, because there are so many other variables. Handlers, locations, weather, etc.

Like the old saying goes. There is more than one way to skin a cat. (I wonder what was the original basis for that old saying? Chinese cooks?)


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

RodSD....You are correct...Just because an ALL-AMERICAN flyer in YB`s and OB`s does it,that don`t mean it is right....But it does seem that it is not WRONG either,since the man wins so much.....Alamo


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Alamo,
Yes, I know what you mean. He field tested it so to speak! Those are pioneers!

When I was a kid my grandmother told me not to light a "thing" else it will explode she said. Being curious as I was I did anyhow and sure enough it exploded up to the house roof. Sometimes we really don't need to test what people say else we won't be there to witness it. I got lucky!


----------



## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I give ACV and garlic separately. I used to use ACV every day. I'm a nurse and I know human bodies are way different than pigeons, but people can develop a metabolic acidosis-low pH-and it is deadly. I've never seen anyone develop it from too much vinegar but did see it once in an aspirin-salicylic acid-overdose. So I'm not quite as gung ho about the ACV anymore. The birds have no choice but to drink what we put out for them so we must be extra careful with the additives. Just my thoughts.


----------



## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

RodSD said:


> Alamo,
> Yes, I know what you mean. He field tested it so to speak! Those are pioneers!
> 
> When I was a kid my grandmother told me not to light a "thing" else it will explode she said. Being curious as I was I did anyhow and sure enough it exploded up to the house roof. Sometimes we really don't need to test what people say else we won't be there to witness it. I got lucky!


A little off topic.. with 55 creeping up on me I still remember this like it was yesterday. My mother told me not to touch the stove because it was hot. Me being who I am wanted to know how hot. I touched it and found it to be _very_ hot.

Young pigeons are a bit like us in that early experiences are carried for life.


----------



## Hees Loft (Jun 26, 2011)

*ACV/Garic*

Based on the questions I saw here, I interviewed Art about this
Art Hees’ recipe is:

Apple Cider Vinegar OR Lemon Juice, not both (about two table spoons)
A small piece of onion
Two peeled cloves (not heads) of garlic
½ gallon of water

Run through blender… dilute to make 2-3 gallons of water for loft

This is a casual mixture. It should not be used late in the week before racing. He doesn’t use it much anymore (during race season) as he believes you can have too many things going. Originally he used lemons when racing in Southern California (Crown City Club of the Mountain Concourse, later in the FVC club) where lemons grew in the back yard, but changed to vinegar when he moved to Florida. 

He also used water from cooking asparagus or artichokes with in similar ways with similar results… (of course Mom cooked the asparagus with lemon and garlic.)

WARNING: This is a casual treatment, not part of his core program. He considers it much like a multi-vitamin. It is something extra. When racing, particularly in Florida, it is a “Hydration game” and this mixture can interfere with hydration.

Unfortunately as of 6/25/11, Art is in the late stages of a battle with cancer. He is currently selling some of his birds on IPigeon.

Randy & Dan Hees


----------



## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

on the human's side~~~garlics and onions are great source of antioxidants~ so it's always healthy(for humans)~ maybe the article mr. spiritwings read was long ago .. a little off topic but onions are healthy for humans~ i don't know for pigeons


----------

