# 25 Pigeons in one bedroom Apt. in Manhattan



## Dovena

Your amazingly complete guide is very helpful, Trees Gray. You have probably saved many lives by posting it. Now can you save mine? None of my 25 birds meets the criteria for release. Many of them are white or some amazing pattern that would definitely stop traffic (no danger to them of cars!) but would also attract hawks and other predators (also anyone with an eye for beauty or the unusual). Quite a few have no fear of people. The rest would be okay to release, BUT FOR the fact that I live in Manhattan and there are "nuisance bird" trappers everywhere, hired by the commercial buildings' management companies to "remove" pigeons. So every one of my birds would fail the releasability test on that standard alone. I am starting to think that maybe the thing to do would be to buy some property -- even a patch of land -- where I could house my birds. I just may get evicted, if not for the birds, then for rendering my apartment uninhabitable. There are lots of droppings and I can't seem to stay on top of the cleaning. And what I dread most is August, which is quick approaching, when the molt occurs. My apartment will soon resemble the inside of a humongous down pillow. I don't know how to drive a car and know nothing about real estate or about buying "plots" other than like staying up 'til midnight to purchase the latest Harry Potter installment. My life is turning into the Diane Keaton movie, "Baby Boom," where the baby girl whom the CEO inherits comes to take over her life, only that it is a flock of beautiful feral and semi-feral pigeons who have taken over mine. This is approaching crisis time and it only hurts when I laugh. Help me. I'm drowning.


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## Skyeking

I just posted a list of resolutions for you, & I clicked on submit, and it didn't show up, hey.... are we in limbo somewhere? don't know where it went, help googull!......


Dovena,

I'm sorry but I don't have the time to repost all that information!

Treesa


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## pdpbison

Hi Dovena,


Really, the thing for you to do, is to make for yourself a situation like what I used to have.

Move to somewhere in Indianna or Ohio maybe and buy some neat old house and property cheap.

You can own a small older farm or semi rural house and so on, around those parts thereabouts, in some cases for what it costs for a few months or a years rent of an appartment in Manhattan...

Let your Birds be the flock they are, or would be, and let them live with you in some way, and they can fly all day all they like, and come home at dusk to roost and preen and so on.

It is the ideal I think.

They will attract the occasional new flock Member, and, some of them will matriculate to other contiguous flocks.

Otherwise, you are in a tough spot there in Manhattan...!


Good for you though!

I used to have about 30 who lived with me in my little home at the time, they all exploded out the Kitchen Window when I would open it for them in the morning, and all come back when they felt like it, around dusk usually, every day...

Some liked rains and storms and would hang out on the edge of the roof or on an old ladder I had leaning against the roof edge, and enjoy the storms and winds...others stayed inside of course on those kinds of days...whatever they liked, fine with me...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

Dovena said:


> Your amazingly complete guide is very helpful, Trees Gray. You have probably saved many lives by posting it. Now can you save mine? None of my 25 birds meets the criteria for release. Many of them are white or some amazing pattern that would definitely stop traffic (no danger to them of cars!) but would also attract hawks and other predators (also anyone with an eye for beauty or the unusual). Quite a few have no fear of people. The rest would be okay to release, BUT FOR the fact that I live in Manhattan and there are "nuisance bird" trappers everywhere, hired by the commercial buildings' management companies to "remove" pigeons. So every one of my birds would fail the releasability test on that standard alone. I am starting to think that maybe the thing to do would be to buy some property -- even a patch of land -- where I could house my birds. I just may get evicted, if not for the birds, then for rendering my apartment uninhabitable. There are lots of droppings and I can't seem to stay on top of the cleaning. And what I dread most is August, which is quick approaching, when the molt occurs. My apartment will soon resemble the inside of a humongous down pillow. I don't know how to drive a car and know nothing about real estate or about buying "plots" other than like staying up 'til midnight to purchase the latest Harry Potter installment. My life is turning into the Diane Keaton movie, "Baby Boom," where the baby girl whom the CEO inherits comes to take over her life, only that it is a flock of beautiful feral and semi-feral pigeons who have taken over mine. This is approaching crisis time and it only hurts when I laugh. Help me. I'm drowning.



Dovena,

I'm sorry the situation has gotten out of hand. You need to take immediate action.

Why have the pigeons "taken over"? Are they breeding?

1. If they are breeding, seperate them once the last baby is raised, remove any remaining eggs as they are laid, and put down dummy eggs.
Do you have two spare rooms, one for males and one for females? The breeding season is over and yes, they are going into the molt. 

You might say it is not natural to do seperate them, but is it natural for them to live inside an apt.? They will be misserable if they are overcrowded, and fight. The hens will be happy and be able to relax, and the males will be better behaved, if they are seperated and have enough room.

2. Get them on some barley, two days of pigeon type barley and they will lose the sex drive and go into the molt. After that get them on a mix of pigeon seed with 25% barley, or a mix of 11 to 13% protein, this will slow down the egg laying, as eggs will still be layed for a time being.

3. After they are done molting you can give them a mix for rest period which is down to 8 to 10% protein, just make sure they have a good varried diet, and a good multi with all the amino acids.

4. Once the cool weather is back, you can release those of the group that is releasable, ship them to someone who has an established flock that has access to food and water, if your area is not "pigeon friendly"

5.Start looking for a rehabber, anyone with knowledge of pigeons, a wildlife sanctuary near you, where the remainder can go, or keep those that are pets. But you need to take action NOW.

Treesa


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## Dovena

*Separating the couples?*

Thank you, Trees Gray. Right now, as we speak, there are three couples who are nursing their new babies, born July 14th, July 17th and July 18th. That is six new cute little babies. These couples cannot be separated. What is very problematic now is that the male juveniles who have become sexually mature are making a lot of noise and are pushing each other around. Another thing that is unnatural is that, because they are in such close proximity to each other at all times, some of the brothers and sisters who were born together are copulating. One pair laid eggs and I was advised that the eggs had to be removed immediately, because there was a significant chance that the babies would be deformed or in some way sub-par, unhealthy. It was very hard for me to do, but I did remove the eggs and replace them with dummies. I cannot separate the couples that are nursing the babies together, correct? As for separating the males from the females, I have only the living room and the bedroom. The bedroom belongs to one female who seems to be able to "escape" on occasion; and on both of those occasions, she surprised me with babies when I thought she was chaste! Another thing, and this may surprise you, is that none of the birds, except for the wishfully chaste one in the bedroom, allows me to pick him/her up. So separating males and females would entail a lot of chasing and scaring the entire flock while running around the apartment with a net. Embarrassing, but true. They do not allow me to pick them up or touch them. Also, if the breeding season is over, how come they don't seem to be aware of the fact? Last year, my birds laid fertile eggs in February. I think Manhattan is hostile territory for feral pigeons. I have read E-mail alerts from the Humane Society, warning that it is very dangerous to ship animals by plane. One person's beloved cat died when the temperature became excessively hot. Things are getting out of hand in my apartment, not only with the large amounts of waste (very unsanitary) and featherdust, but also the battles now with the newly sexually-matured males who are no longer gentle and peaceful but very aggressive and combative and fighting for territory in my limited-space apartment. I tried to nurture and protect the birds, but I believe I have created a monster. I would love to move to Ohio or some other place where I can have an inexpensive house and land, but I work in New York City and don't know how to drive or have a car. If it is unsafe to ship, as the Humane Society warns, how come so many of the members of this group have done so?


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## Skyeking

" I try to nurture and protect birds, but I believe I have created a monster"

I'm sorry this has gotten out of hand, but it is up to you to take the steps to fix it.

It is time to get these birds under control. Protecting and nurturing sick feral pigeons, is one thing, but allowing them to breed out of control, without daily human interaction and contact, has created this nightmare, and they were not meant to live in captivity this way, either.

You can use the bedroom for the females, the living room for the males. Once the babies are all grown up, seperate them all, meanwhile take away any more eggs that are layed, and replace them.

They are combative because of lack of space, and males are territorial, they will calm down when seperated. Overcrowding causes them stress and to fight also, separating is the solution. 

Breeding season is over because pigeon fanciers make that decision. Pigeons will go on and breed until they are worn out, when there is no intervention, so go ahead, intervene, get them seperated, and make some order out of this chaos.

If you can't grab them yourself, find someone who knows pigeons, and have them help you. They will show you how to catch them and handle them properly.

It will take time...but how long has this been going on?

Treesa


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## TAWhatley

Dovena,

It is =not= unsafe to ship. Like anything else in life things can go wrong and have gone wrong with some shipments. Right now it is probably far too hot for the post office to accept any live birds for shipment. I'd really suggest you try to do what Treesa has posted AND as soon as possible ship all the pigeons out .. either to me or to others who may be able to help.

As much as I like you and respect your love for pigeons, you have to start doing what is best for the birds and for yourself. Having an apartment totally trashed by the birds living there and you suffering the consequences of that makes no sense. It is also not right for these birds to be prisoners in a NYC apartment where they cannot even be kept as "pets" .. it's become a warehouse for prisoner pigeons at this point .. you have far too many birds, and it's not right or fair to any of them.

You can check with our mutual friend in Queens about her shipments of birds to me .. every single shipment made it just fine, and every single bird made it just fine. In fact, the last shipment was delivered to the airport post office in NYC fairly late in the day and still arrived at my post office around 4:15 PM or so the following day .. slightly more than 24 hours to make it from NYC to Southern California .. that's pretty darned good and the four bird box cost only $30 in shipping. This last shipment left JFK on July 6 and the birds were here and settled in long before dark the next day.

I =cannot= keep every single bird that comes to me for care for whatever the reason, but i =can= either find them homes or release those that are releasable in a far, far better environment than what they would be faced with in a huge city like NYC. I do try to keep the really special needs birds myself as not everybody is up to caring for birds that are blind, or missing an eye, or a leg, or both feet, or whatever .. even with these, there will eventually come a time when I can't care for any more. This is why it is so very important to try to limit the number of new lives you allow to be brought into this world .. there just aren't good and safe places for all of them.

You really want to get depressed .. any member here .. sign up for the Craigslist pet section in your area .. trust me .. you'll never be the same. So many, many, many people who treat bird and animal lives as something that is expendable and/or inconvenient. Want some more heartbreak then give Petfinders.org a shot. The amount of suffering out there is overwhelming. If you are contributing to it, then STOP!

OK .. far more than 'nuf said.

Terry


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## Lin Hansen

*"I tried to nurture and protect the birds, but I believe I've created a monster."*

I should probably refrain from commenting because "what's done is done" and I can't really offer any additional advice to that which was already offered...BUT I found Dovena's problem and post very disturbing.

If anyone cares to check out these links to previous threads.......

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10101

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10029

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10595

.....it will show that waayyy back in April this monster was already being created. And way back in April, Dovena was asking basically the same questions and given the same advice as far as preventing overpopulation and as far as the possibilites for releasing her birds. I'm just wondering how many poor birds have been added to this problem since April when Dovena was advised to prevent more babies being born.... 

Dovena, I really hope THIS TIME you will listen and act upon the good advice that Terry and Treesa have given you. You have got to start taking steps to take care of this situation now, before it gets any worse. Living the way you are is not fair to the birds and it's not fair to you...I do realize you meant well, but as you've said yourself, the situation has gotten out of hand.

Good luck,
Linda

PS...Phil, your suggestions were lovely, but probably not feasable...nice try though!


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## feralpigeon

Hi Dovena,

I certainly can't improve on any of the excellent advice and insights posted here. I've followed some of your threads over the past few months, but, I'm a little confused on the total count of birds in your apartment. How many are there in total, squabbs, juveniles, adults currently living in your apartment.
How many eggs do you anticipate hatching?

Thanks,

fp


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## Dovena

*Reply to Lin Hansen*

When I posted in April, things were not so terrible. I actually then was considering separating the females from the males, but someone pretty experienced with pigeons in this group advised me that that was a bad idea; that it would be very cruel to separate a bird from its mate. I said I found it even crueler to remove a fertile, viable egg, but she told me that it is mean to traumatize a bird by separating it from its mate. Okay? So it's not that I hadn't thought of that idea, but I deferred to someone I believed was more knowledgeable. Also, things were still pretty manageable until recently, when a few of the males became sexually mature and started fighting for territory with their dad. Of the 25 birds that I have, six are babies in the nest. Six
are birds that I rescued and rehabbed. The others were born in my apartment
between end-of-February and mid-June.

Although Lin Hansen claims that this problem began much earlier and I did nothing, I in fact did solicit advice and much of it was contradictory. You just haven't heard all of the advice that I received. Do not be so quick to judge. I personally felt that stealing fertile eggs and replacing them with dummies is mean and deceptive and would have preferred separating the males from the females, but was told that that was an incredibly cruel thing to do. But what is cruel and what is not is entirely an opinion of we humans, and we humans do not concur at all times on what is the decent, ethical thing to do. Do we know that the birds would agree with our consensus?


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## Reti

This is a group and by posting a question or seeking advice you will receive many opinions. Most of them are right. The members here have years and years of experience but each one uses his own ways he believes are best.
You also have to use your own judgement. If you believe it is cruel to replace the egg then you should have just separated the birds no matter what one said, knowing that by not doing it you would end up being overwhelemed.

Reti


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## Lin Hansen

Dovena,

I'm sorry if you feel I am judging you. I can only go by the information you have offered the group and going by that, I guess I was being judgemental. I apologize for that.

I generally don't respond to posts unless I feel I can be helpful, but I could not help myself from commenting because when you posted one of your old threads "Ethics of replacing eggs," I could tell right then and there, seeing how you felt about it, that this problem you have now was going to be the eventual outcome.

All I can tell you is you really don't have a choice any more and it really doesn't matter how you feel --- you are going to have to choose the lessor of two evils. You think both methods of birth control are cruel, but you are going to have to choose one or the other. I DO know that practically every member who responded to you in the "Ethics" thread assured you that you were not killing a baby pigeon, that the birds are not overly upset by egg pulling, and that they themselves practiced this method as a way of not being overwhelmed with a population explosion. Since you did not separate the birds (you took that advice) and did not replace eggs (the advice you didn't take), you are now in this situation.

As I said earlier, what's done is done....I hope you are able to find a way out of this situation and find a way you are comfortable with in assuring it doesn't happen all over again.

I wish you good luck and I'm sorry again for the judgemental tone.

Linda


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## pdpbison

Hi Dovina, all...


I would be happy to recieve any releasable Birds you may wish to send my way.

If these Birds were raised in an appartment, indoors, I would think they might benifit from some graduated steps of socialization and forays, and I would be glad to give it my best by allowing them to be indoors here for a week or two, then, letting them out to graze with my feral Flock, to come back in if they like untill they elect to go roost with the wild ones at their own pace of comfort and decision.

I have no provieion for a premenent indoor-roosting flock, but I could handle this allright, since their stay here would be short term as they assimilate into the wild Flock I feed every day.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dovena

*A plot (of land)?*

Thanks, Phil, Reti and Lin. Another alternative would be to find a place that is affordable where I could build a nice habitat for the birds, but that's another problem if they keep breeding: I would have to keep expanding the habitat. I like Phil's idea, but two rehabbers told me they don't like the idea of shipping a bird out-of-state far-away, because you are forcing them to adapt to a different climate; and I was talking about New York to California. I could separate the females from the males, but have only two rooms, one of which has belonged to one female alone for a year now. She would probably be upset to suddenly have a dozen new roommates, all female. I personally don't think it would have been all that cruel to separate the males from the females. I attended an all-girl high school and I came out okay (I think). I am getting a headache turning this around over and over in my head. I think Phil and Terry might be the solution. Phil, if I send them to Las Vegas, may I come over and see the place? Don't get me wrong about one thing: I love these birds and take very good care of them. I make a lot of sacrifices for them. I have not released them in New York City only because I have personally seen some of the unauthorized traps, have seen the red-tailed hawk that is so famous on Fifth Avenue, and some other ugly and dangerous things that have scared me into keeping my windows closed at all times. I honestly did not foresee that things could get this bad in such a short time. Note: It was only this past Easter Sunday that the first daddy pigeon introduced his two children into the living room and told them this was the Universe. It was very sweet and it was like only yesterday. Now it is, what, just THREE MONTHS later and there are civil wars breaking out all over my apartment. And I don't even live there, anymore, but have turned the place over to the little ones. I am paying a very heavy price, but I could not take away my beloved bird's eggs. She felt too passionately about the issue, strongly enough to have fought me to the death. I know it. I saw it. I knew that she was in the right, morally, so I could not win that fight. It would have been less unethical for me to have separated the sexes, but it's too late now. Perhaps it is all for the best. These birds are wonderful and they are exquisite and magical creatures. The fact that they exist is a good thing. As for the overcrowded conditions, they are temporary. I just can't think fast enough; that's all.


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## Reti

About the shipping you should not worry. Many, many people, including me have shipped birds, they adapt fine. Best is to ship them when the temperatures are the same at the time of shipping. End August, Septmenber would be good. And this gives you over a month to get ready.

Reti


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## Dovena

*Question for "pbpbison" (a/k/a Phil of Las Vegas)*

In terms of the criteria that Trees Gray mentions in her guidelines regarding releasability, can you tell me if Las Vegas is a pigeon-friendly environment? Also, are there many hawks or falcons or other birds of prey there? Because another of her criteria is whether the birds are white or bright or an unusual color that would attract raptors. Most of them are indeed unusual in color or color pattern, or are white or mostly white.

Thanks.


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## pdpbison

Hi dovena,


Far as I know, few-to-very few Raptors here who would prey on Pigeons.

It is a a city which is mostly indifferent to it's resident Pigeons.

The ferals are hardy and good looking and mostly healthy as far as I can tell.

Some of my wild flock members are in excess of ten years old that I know of...

I feel it is not a cushy life for them here, certainly, but they manage.

It is hot in the Summer, can get below freezing in the Winter, and overall, there is not a great deal for them to eat.

As for your situation...

Obviously you are very careing and wishing to provide for them, and, this will have been a good beginning for you, your adventure so far...

You just need to brush up a little more on their Natural History, and, on those forms of husbandry which, while not obligeing them unto conspicuous domesticity, would never the less qualify as benign and judicous management or overseeing matters for their benifit.

One must do this of course whenever one is to be in any kind of relationship...Lol...

Be it spouse, offspring, parents, neighbors, friends or other...or, as one may anyway, so...it is no different with Pigeons, except we can have a little more say-so on Pigeon matters than some of the others.

Flocks, no matter where they roost, or scatter somewhat in their roosting, essentially manage themselves in deference to the balance of factors their judgement recommends.

In an artificial situation such as your appartment, their usual territories and grazing fields and sense of proportion is not the same, nor, will be their judgement.

My own sense of these matters does not recomend domestication, beyond some modicum of intervention for those Babys or injured or ill Adults, whom I might offer my attentions to, pending their release unto their Wild bretherin's domains.

Long ago, my own home-roosting flock evened out at about 30 Birds, and I will say, that was a handfull...! These Birds would not have anything to do with 'people' unless those people were 'in' my little house.

if in the back yard, forget it! You or anyone but me would never be able to pick oe up pr pet them or have them land on your shoulder and so on.

They were wild Birds who happenned to have a roosting territory in which I was a familiar co-habitant and benovelent 'Uncle'.


But as they all flew every day, young adults females tended to go off to make a life elsewhere sometimes, or younger males, senseing the approximatly terminal threshold of occupation of the ammenitites, elected simarly to seek elsewhere to find their fortunes.

This was fine, natural and fitting...

They have their own sense of balances and judgements when allowed to make choices, so...

One possibility, would be for you to look into not so far away options, where hobbiests and Pigeon feeding people similar to me, might be able to offer a decent safe area of localle for yours to be released, even if a few at a time, unto some wild flock or other.

My own fliock here has various colors of Birds in it, from escaped magician's or Wedding Pigeons, old escaped fancies of various kinds, and who knows what else.

One of my Babys presently, whom I am raising, from a different feral flock, has wonderful feathered Toes, for example...

But...

Where, the person would have some way to keep and feed them indoors for a while, and or for you to keep mated pairs together for this person to keep together, for those mated pairs to be able to decide some new place to make their Nest and so on...and to woo them into appreciating the new localles gradually...

Otherwise, especially any of yours who have mates and have made Nests, just might make the flight 'back', and be pacing at your window ledge, wanting to get back in.

They can, and they will do this! 

No matter that these are not per-se.... "Homers"...

Lol...

Put your thinking-Cap on, we will help too...

Up State New York or Deleware or something, will certainly be an ideal situation for them to be acclimated a little, wooed to think of someplace new as 'home', and, be released to assimilate and be welcomed into a wild flock...

A few Car trips, some fun, and you are 'done' and will have done the good-deed for them.

Now...

How to find that 'right' person...?

Close enough to you so the Birds do not get any climate shock or tiresome travel logistics...


Hmmmmmmm...

Let's all think on that some more...

If you can locate rehabbers or various Vets even, in other more rural yet somewhat ajascent areas of your localle, you might be able to get some recommendations from them, as to people they know, who might be candidates to investigate for helping you.

It would be so much easier and pleasant I think for you, and for the Birds, if something closer could be found, that would satisfy the needs of the Birds to be assimilated into wild healthy flocks in some nice area.


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley

Perhaps Doris Booth on the Resources list could help in some way .. http://www.pigeons.com/prd.htm

Terry


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## Dovena

*Question for Phil*

So I take it, Phil ("pdpbison"), that you have changed your mind about accepting some or all of my birds? Because of the shipping and/or difference in climate? Please confirm that this is what you are saying.


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## Maggie-NC

Dovena, sometimes you just have to "bite the bullet" and do what is right for the pigeons. We have 42 pigeons right now, give or take one or two, and the majority of them are laying eggs. It wouldn't take long before our aviaries were so overcrowded that it would be bad for the pigeons and for us. If you have so many in the situation you are in, caring for them becomes a chore instead of a labor of love and that is to the pigeons' detriment. Each and every egg we have to remove brings sadness but it is something that has to be done.

You mentioned contradictory information. I guess you could call it that to some extent but you have to keep in mind that not much research has gone into establishing standards for the care of pigeons. We all have our different methods but you can develop new methods that are better than the ones you have been using simply by listening to people who have tried different things that work. To me, that is just using common sense. It is amazing what I have learned in just three months by being in this forum and I have been rehabbing pigeons for 12 years. To me, the info you've been given is not contradictory - everyone agrees that you need to either separate the males and females or throw out the eggs. 

If the pigeons are in an apartment by themselves, do you have someone who could care for them if you get sick or injured? For your sake do separate the birds. I really wish you good luck because you obviously have a loving heart to be doing all this for your birds.


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## Dovena

*Reply to Lady Tarheel*

I check in on the flock in my apartment two or three times a day: morning, lunchtime, and at dusk. I change their water and that sort of thing. Make sure the food is fresh. Try to clean up after them, although it is impossible to do this in any sort of thorough way, what with working and having to stay elsewhere now. The apartment has only a living room and a bedroom, and there is a female pigeon who is used to having the bedroom all to herself. If I place all of the other females in the bedroom, I don't know how she would handle with that, when she fought with one bird who accidentally sneaked into the room once. You know, someone in this group advised me to remove the eggs belonging to a brother and sister who had mated, because there was a risk of birth defects or what-have-you, and I did force myself to remove the eggs and replace them with dummy eggs. But the brother and sister are continuing to sit on the eggs, although they seem to realize that the eggs are overdue for hatching, and they appear to be stressed by this. Now I hate myself not only for stealing their eggs -- which, for all we know, just might have hatched into chicks that were perfect -- but also for keeping the siblings captive so that they choose to breed with each other where they probably would not, otherwise. But, know what? All of this self-flagellation is pretty unproductive. In keeping the birds indoors, I protect them from poisoning and other dangers. Predators steal the birds' eggs. That's called "predation," right? I try to protect them from all the things that they would never want to happen, and I have succeeded somewhat. However, because the environment in which they live is unnatural and confining, I have also created for them other stresses. Thank you for your support. Where there's a will, there's a way, but my life now is so hectic what with the job and the birds and living far away from them and checking in on them several times a day like this. It is hard for me to be able to check out places where I could house them, either nearby or out-of-state with people from this group.
No one is helping me. I do it all myself. It's pretty hard. Overwhelming, I will admit. If I didn't love them, I could not have hung on this long.


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## pdpbison

Hi dovena,


Ohhhh, dovina...you are not listeining very well...or are too anxious to do so.

These things can happen. I am like that myself sometimes.  


I have made no inference about 'changing my mind'...  

All is well...

I am trying to help YOU think, trying to help YOU assay various possible solutions which have various merits to them, for you to weigh, for you to think about and explore...

You can 'just' ship the Birds to me, of course!

...but, at the same time, why send these Birds three thousand miles to a very HOT climate and to a Desert, when, probably, there are better alternatives which with some patience, and detective-work, can be found within comfortable driving distance in your own regional Climate?

I will be happy to accept your Birds...and to do my best with them.

And, in the interest OF the Birds, and of you, I am wishing to see other, easier on them and on you, of alternatives to be explored.

Shift your emphasis or attentions to the direction of weighing possible solutions, and their merits, and how to find them, or what it may take TO find them.

If you get on the phone, and start doing some 'detective work', you can likely find someone very suitable who is not so very far from you, where to stay in the same climate would be preferable for these Birds, and you could drive them, a few at a time, and so on, to the new home for that person to care for them a while and release them intelligently to a flock they are familiar with.


Did I not go into some details already about keeping mated pairs "together" when they go to their new home? 


Please, slow down your anxiousness or worries, so you may instead, understand what has been said so far...there is nothing ambigous or shifting in my interest or desire to help you and your Birds.

You would not ship them untill the cool of Autumn anyway, you said, so, does it not seem you have some time to explore options and try dialing a phone and being an active part of finding a good possibility in your region?

Calling Vets in ajacent areas or ajacent Counties and asking them for info on rehabbers or hobbiests or Pigeon People they might know, in areas you feel might offer nice surrounds? Calling the Audobon Society even, calling SPCAs, calling Wild LIfe people, calling creatively...be persistant...!

If you find promising leads, go vist these people and see how it feels, see if you and they are comfortable with the plan...

And if that fails, then you know you still have me in ready...!

 

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

Dovena said:


> You know, someone in this group advised me to remove the eggs belonging to a brother and sister who had mated, because there was a risk of birth defects or what-have-you, and I did force myself to remove the eggs and replace them with dummy eggs. But the brother and sister are continuing to sit on the eggs, although they seem to realize that the eggs are overdue for hatching, and they appear to be stressed by this. Now I hate myself not only for stealing their eggs -- which, for all we know, just might have hatched into chicks that were perfect -- but also for keeping the siblings captive so that they choose to breed with each other where they probably would not, otherwise.


Whoever advised you to remove the eggs belonging to the brother and sister was absolutely right. It is common knowledge that you do not breed brother to sister, as of genetic problems. I have seen the results personally when I was 10 years old, we got two pigeons that turned out to be brother and sister, but my dad didn't know when he bought them, and they had two babies, both born blind! Only did we find out later they were brother and sister. If you had taken that chance to let them keep their eggs, that would have been a very risky having two birds born blind, or with some other deformity.

Treesa


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## Dovena

*Checking out other alternatives, Phil*

The brother and sister are still very attached to each other and are still trying desperately to re-enter the bathroom where the dummy eggs and their nest were, after I closed the door yesterday so that the brother would not keep bullying and fighting with his father who is helping his mate to nurse two newborn chicks. It is very sad to see the brother and sister so agitated, longing for their nest and worried for their unborn young. But Terry said I did the right thing to prevent the results of inbreeding, so I take comfort in that.
Phil, I have been trying to look into the upstate New York area, but a rescuer has just informed me that there are a lot of hawks in upstate New York. How to verify that, I am not sure. It is hard to do the legwork, because I have no phone access at my office. So it is REALLY hard.


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## Dovena

*Hawks and other raptors in upstate New York*

Doris Booth of upstate New York has informed me that she does not release any of her pigeons, because of the hawks up there. She said it doesn't matter the color of the pigeon; no pigeons are released in this raptor-rich environment.

Okay....


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## Yo Pauly

Little late with this message, but if Dovena is still around, maybe it will help.

Central Park used to be a wonderful place to release pigeons because it houses thousands of them and because it has a generous, lunch-hour crowd that feeds the pigeons well. The birds living around the park's lake near 57th street and 5th Avenue certainly have it made. 

But, ever since those red-tailed hawks began nesting on the ledges of the high-rise condos across from the park, the one-time, bird haven has become much too dangerous. Just last year, the red-tailed hawks and all those _cuckoo birds_, who photograph or just watch the hawks feed on the pigeons, made city headlines for days.

Central Park, however, isn't the only park in New York City. There are many other grassy and spacious city parks. Are you aware of the beautiful parks located on Staten Island? One is Clove Lake Park, and the other is Silver Lake Park. I suggest you take a ferry boat ride and check them out. If you like what you see, you can release your flock in either pigeon-friendly park. The birds would be welcomed and safe from predators.

I'm assuming that Your problem has already been solved. However, if you meet up with a similar situation again, you might want to visit a park on Staten Island. (Or, the closer-to-your-apartment Prospect Park in Brooklyn, which is only a subway ride away.)

 Twenty-five pigeons in a city apartment; I can't imagine the scene. My two-room apartment used to be overcrowded with the chihuahua, cat, and me.


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## TAWhatley

Yo Pauly said:


> I'm assuming that Your problem has already been solved. However, if you meet up with a similar situation again, you might want to visit a park on Staten Island. (Or, the closer-to-your-apartment Prospect Park in Brooklyn, which is only a subway ride away.)


I don't think the problem is resolved, so your suggestions are most appreciated. I do hope that Dovena will find a good solution for her birds.

Terry


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## Yo Pauly

Dovena, this idea might work for you. Battery Park, which is at the southern tip of Manhattan, would be a great place to release your pigeons. This park is close to your home, so you could visit your birds whenever you want to. I suggest you get some plastic bands for your birds so you could identify them more easily. Call a few pet shops and ask for the bands. They're not expensive. You might have to search through a Brooklyn or Queens yellow pages for the bands because there aren't many pet shops that sell pigeons in Manhattan.

 One thing I forgot to mention: If you do decide to release your pigeons in Battery Park, do it on a weekend (preferably Sunday). New York City park workers usually work from 7:00 am-3:30 pm. Release your flock in the late afternoon to minimize your chances of getting a summons.


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## Dovena

*No Solution Yet*

Hello, everyone. This is Dovena and things are the same, only now it appears that two other male youngsters have sexually matured, because they crow and dance and seem to be playing a domination game. Battery Park City is in downtown Manhattan by Wall Street, Ground Zero, etc. The red-tailed hawks live on Fifth Avenue, but the Wall Street area is host to peregrine falcons which also devour pigeons. Every time someone rescues and rehabs a fledgling falcon downtown, there is coverage in the news media. If there are hawks and falcons in Manhattan, is it safe to assume that Staten Island, which is not so far away, does not have these same raptors? There are hawks in Queens. Two rescuers have observed hawks attacking pigeons in Queens. How can we know that the two parks in Staten Island are safe from hawks and other raptors?

Yes, still 25 birds in my one-bedroom. Today they all congregated at the windowsill, looking out, and I was seriously contemplating removing the screens from the windows and letting them out. A pseudo "soft release" where I leave the windows open and they can fly in and out at will. If I do this, it had better be soon, because we are already into August and before you know it, the cold weather will be upon us, and they need time to adjust. But I stare at the birds and most of them are distinct in that they are white or mostly white or unusually tinged with interesting colors. They wouldn't really blend in with the feral pigeons. Well, most of them wouldn't, anyway.

But no, no solution yet. Spent the entire weekend, trying to keep things under control, housekeeping/cleaning-wise, to little avail. The most stressful thing I have ever had to do. Can hardly describe it to you.


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## Yo Pauly

Dovena, take a ride to Clove Lake Park on S.I. The last time I was there I noticed many ducks in the lake, and many sparrows and pigeons everywhere. The authorities wouldn't put ducks in an unsafe lake, would they? 

The entire trip from Manhattan shouldn't take much longer than an hour. As soon as you get off the ferry, you will immediately see a bus terminal. Ask someone for the Clove Lake bus. The bus ride from ferry to park is not even 20 minutes. You'll probably like what you see when you get there. 

 I know you mean well, but you can't keep the birds in an apartment. Preventing them from flying outdoors might be bordering on a mild form of cruelty.


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## pdpbison

Hi Dovena,


Clearly, your dilemma has grown out of and remains, in your wishing to be careing and responsible.

Far as I know, those two issues are something we explore all our lives.


Nature, and the sensibilities of individual Birds or other Creatures, the vicissitudes of the feral or wild Worlds, and of the domesticated ones...combine or interface at times of course, when we undertake to intervene or aid others.

It is possible, the maority of your Birds are healthy and bright enough to elude the dangers you fear for them to face.

While for now, they must abide a stasis of skills and wits which sooner or later will not have beniifited from the boredom and distractions of captivity.

Some may fall prey to incident if you release them...and many may not, according to their wits.

While for now, the skills they all need to Live, are being compromised by the removal of them from their natural contexts in which to excercise and hone those skills and wits.

The Birds which Hawks and Falcons catch, are the ones who are not paying attention...for whatever reason.

This is a kind of 'deal' as is made between Species, and, ultimately, is a part of their accomidation of eachother.

Certainly in Winter, your whiter Birds would have an advantage over the darker Blue Varieties...in any situation where they are being looked for, from above...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dovena

*"Yo," Yo Pauly, read Trees Gray criteria*

"Yo Pauly," the fact that there are ducks in the pond on Staten Island does not mean that the area is not rife with raptors. There are ducks in some parts of Central Park, too, and Pale Male, the famous hawk, might enjoy watching them swim. I read "Trees Gray"'s criteria for releasability and again I must reiterate that many feel that New York City is not a pigeon-friendly place; and that most of my birds are white or an unusual blend of colors. I am sorely tempted to release ALL of them now, because of course that would make my life a thousand percent easier. But it is early August now. In only two months, we will be facing cold weather. Only this past April, I was finding several pigeons every week which were unable to fly for some reason, because we had two weeks of non-stop, cold rain. At the end of April, they were everywhere, to be rescued. It is very hard for me to watch the birds cluster at the windowsill, looking out, wanting to fly out in the sunshine. It takes considerable restraint for me to project into the future, even just the near future, and consider the hard times they will face with the cold weather and the dearth of food and lack of sympathy from humans who treat them like vermin. And how will I be able to help them then? "Survival of the fittest" and "Nature knows best" sound good on paper. But to every animal, it's own life has precious value. "Que sera, sera," doesn't cut it.


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## Yo Pauly

One last hurrah from me. 

Nearly all of the predators in New York City are nesting (with blessings from the authorities and _cuckoo birds_) on high-rise buildings and skyscrapers in _Manhattan_. 

If you check out the parks on Staten Island, you will find that they are located in areas surrounded by one- and two-story houses. 

As I said earlier, Central Park has, unfortunately, become too dangerous; Battery Park, a much safer place, is home to hundreds of well-fed pigeons and seagulls. And the parks on Staten Island _are_ the safest.

No matter where you set your pigeons loose, you will find that a degree of some sort of danger exists for them (As explained so well by Phil in his post).

 Good luck and God bless you and the pigeons. You are a trooper.


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## Dovena

*Staten Island residents disdain pigeons, too*

Here is a recent news item from New York City's local T.V. cable news channel, New York One, which shows that Staten Island residents hate pigeons, too, and are trying to find ways to rid themselves of these much maligned birds. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top News • NY1 Living 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Staten Island Residents Seek Solutions To Major Pigeon Problem 
June 28, 2005

Some Staten Islanders have been battling what they call a pigeon colony in their backyards for six years, and they say they've run out of ideas to make the dirty birds go away. NY1’s Amanda Farinacci filed this report. 

What looks like a scene out of Alfred Hitchcock's movie "The Birds" is actually the real life drama of Staten Islanders inundated with pigeons in Grant City. 

“I can't sit in my backyard. I find dead carcasses,” says neighborhood resident Robyn Russo. “The health hazard is a huge concern to me; they carry viral meningitis.” 

The problem is so bad, Russo says, that she cut down three trees in her backyard so the dirty birds won't have anyplace to sit. That hasn't prevented them from leaving their markings all over the neighborhood; their feathers in air conditioner vents, in pools, and their droppings on cars. 

Some have taken to covering their cars so they don't have to repeatedly wash them, something Philip Passarello says is common. 

“They're very irritating,” he says. “When they take off they can poop all over your car, your house, your windows. It's terrible - really bad.” 

Residents have been complaining to City Councilman James Oddo's office since 1999. He's written several letters to the Department of Health, and used what he says is every available resource to solve the problem. 

Still, the birds flock atop the shingled roofs and wreak havoc on the area. 

“We're making an appeal to anybody out there, anybody who has that creative, entrepreneurial spirit, if they've come up with some sort of scheme, some sort of plan, some sort of voodoo doll, some sort of something, to legally get rid of these pigeons, please call my office,” says Oddo. 

Residents blame their neighbors on Clawson Street for the problem, claiming an elderly couple feed the birds every night between 10 and 11 p.m. But when NY1 rang the bell for comment Tuesday, no one came to the door. 

However, the owner of 34 Clawson Street did eventually speak off camera, and threatened to call the police. She said she plans to get a lawyer because she says she's being targeted by her neighbors. She denies feeding the pigeons, even though the Department of Health says it has ticketed her several times since 1999. 

Meantime, residents will continue to dodge the droppings and hope someone comes up with a way to prevent the pigeons from striking again. 

- Amanda Farinacci


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## ratified

Continental Airlines has a dedicated person at its cargo hub in Texas that does nothing but meet planes, transport animals in the airconditioned van to the next flight, is supposed to give them whatever food and water you have taped to the outside of the flight kennel. Be sure you have frozen water in their water dish. As it thaws they will have unspilled water. You can include moist food such as bits of grapes. Be sure the kennel is taped all around as well: they have been known to come apart and open. The cargo handlers are not as well trained so you really have to stand there when they are shipped to be sure they are hand carried to the baggage carts (not loaded with a loader: those shake them severely--saw that happen at the Tampa Airport to cats and had to intervene) and be sure someone is waiting to meet and immediately water them at the end of the flight. Meeting them is the crucial step. You have to find out where they will be moved to when unloaded and have someone very reliable standing there waiting to ensure a safe end to their trip. No animal is allowed aboard any flight unless it carries a veterinary certificate of clean health, created within the 10 days preceding the flight.
Lisa


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## ratified

*Dovena and Me*

You have my genuine care and understanding. There is a syndrome in the medical literature now, that describes compulsive accumulators. Some accumulate "stuff", but some accumulate animals. Part of the animal syndrome includes being unable to part with any of them, not trusting the animal to take care of itself, or any other human to take good care of the animal. It is a compulsion, and has unconscious origins from somewhere-probably both genetic (to be compulsive) and from childhood events of all sorts, I think. 

But regardless of why anyone has it, it's a problem for the animals and birds involved too. I have this tendency. I want to feed all the wild things, and take them home. Consequently, I can't let myself take any at all home (unless they are injured and at risk...of course I can expand this to include those in imminent danger of being pts at the animal-control 'shelters' ...there's a misnomer... so I can't even go there. I think Dovena you have this as well. Having and caring for these many critters means they require more care than one person can reasonably give, and can never get enough individual attention either. It does take away our anxiety and loneliness with each act of care. It's perfectly understandable. To some degree, everyone here has these feelings and desires, to care for the birds. What's different about them is, they limit themselves and can say no, let the birds go, set boundaries, without outside intervention making them do it. Long story short, open your windows and let the pigeons go. It's no fun to live in a small crowded dirty space, be it a cage or an apartment, whether you are a bird or a oerson. We all need the chance to fly. 

If you can't bring yourself to set limits, clean up, and let them go, then get some therapy and also ask you doctor for a medication for compulsive behaviors. Based on my own experience, you will feel much better. And, so will the birds. It will be a huge relief.


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## Lin Hansen

Ratified,

Thank you for your thoughtful, insightful, compassionate and informative post.

Linda


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## ratified

*Compulsive Pet Accumulators*

You're welcome, Lin. Only thing is, I can't find my response on the web page. I think it only went to you LOL!
Lisa


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## Skyeking

ratified said:


> You're welcome, Lin. Only thing is, I can't find my response on the web page. I think it only went to you LOL!
> Lisa



Hi Lisa,

No, I see it too, it is a great post. Did you check page 3?


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## Dovena

*Dr. Phil, "Ratified" is not*

Please speak for yourself, "Ratified." No, I don't have a compulsive disorder to collect birds. I merely rescued a couple of males less than a year ago, and discovered that they do "breed like rabbits" when mated. Prior to that, I only had two females and was perfectly happy with that. All this started when they met the girls and fell in love. The first babies were only late February of this year, but they have a lot of babies. I started reading the posts on pigeons.com and the advice from Trees Gray which listed criteria for releasability. According to several of the criteria, the birds are not releasable.
Prior to rescuing these new male birds and the "problem" presenting itself, I had not adopted a pet in 20 years. This is a case of rescuing two male birds and having a huge population explosion within a matter of several months. I don't think that is sufficient evidence for you to categorize me as an animal hoarder or someone with obsessive-compulsive disorder, thank you very much.


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## Dovena

*More comments regarding Dr. ("Ratified") Phil's diagnosis*

It is offensive that Ratified has decided that a pigeon-rescuer who has gotten in over her head due to a population explosion taking place in her apartment within just a few months is someone who needs a psychiatrist and medication, no less! Some of the moderators on this site have quite a few birds themselves, but have the luxury of greater space and time to care for the birds, not to mention, in hindsight, the luxury of having had better planning and a support network. I happened to rescue two weakened pigeons and while they were recovering, I came across two more. However, the "two more" were of the opposite sex, it turned out; and therein lies the problem, if babies are a problem. This is a recent development. I had never had more than 2 pets previously in all my life. So much for a deep-rooted psychological problem, as you have so expertly diagnosed. If you recognize signs of a disorder in yourself, then feel free to deal with it as you see fit. But please do not gratuitously include me in your self-diagnosis. Misery may love company, but I would prefer to not to be chosen as company to a couch psychiatrist who likes to assign mental illnesses as if she were Mrs. Freud herself. I beg to differ with your diagnosis and am offended by your presumptuousness. As for your brilliant advice about just opening my windows, I prefer to abide by Trees Gray's well thought out criteria on releasability. I am not the lazy type who just opens her windows and hopes all my troubles will blow away. The birds could die prematurely that way. It's fairly obvious.


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## Whitefeather

Dovena said:


> *Some of the moderators on this site have quite a few birds themselves, but have the luxury of greater space and time to care for the birds*, not to mention, in hindsight, the luxury of having had better planning and a support network.


Hello Dovena,
I am one of the Moderators & have nine pigeons. They range from common ferals to fancy to show pigeons & are either adopted or were rescued & *all* are *non-releasable*.

I can't speak for the other Moderators, but initially (3 years ago) I didn't have the luxury of spacious living for my birds. As I acquired a non-releasable pigeon it would be placed in a small, yet adequate size cage. As time progressed I was able to transfer the 'paired' birds into larger cages. Today, thanks to my husband's wonderful building ability, they are all living together in a lovely, spacious aviary. They've always been given the best care & proper housing. Being a Moderator has had no bearing on any of that.  

I eliminate over crowding by practicing pigeon 'birth control'. 
Currently, there are 4 females in the aviary sitting on artificial eggs (wooden not plastic) & none have become traumatized because their eggs haven't hatched. 

Pigeons fit to be released after rehab, should be. 

With all due respect, you have had a wonderful support group within this site. You've been offered unlimited suggestions on how to help with your pigeon dilemma, but have chosen not to take heed of any of them. 

I do hope you will let those who can, help you. 

Cindy


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## mr squeaks

*Thanks Cindy!*

*With all due respect, you have had a wonderful support group within this site. You've been offered unlimited suggestions on how to help with your pigeon dilemma, but have chosen not to take heed of any of them.* 

*I do hope you will let those who can, help you. *

Yesterday, I sat for 15 minutes debating whether to make any comments. I have been following Dovena's posts and became more and more frustrated because she just could not seem to be able to make decisions to help her birds! My comments would not have had your tact!

I, for one, thank you! 

Dovena, PLEASE follow suggestions given you to help your birds!


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## Lin Hansen

I know the situations are not *exactly* the same, but perhaps the following sad link can serve as a cautionary tale in this case -- to show what can happen when things get out of hand. Just something to consider and think about....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12299

Linda


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## Dovena

*Response to AZ Whitefeather and Mr. Squeaks*

Yes, I have received some good advice and I have taken it. I have removed new eggs that were laid by sibling pairs, because Treesa said that the babies might be born with birth defects. So I have in fact followed the birth control advice. When I receive good advice, I reflect on it and follow it. However, I do not find it either helpful or very nice to have someone title her post "Dovena and Me" and then go on and on about a psychological problem she suffers from, which she decides to attribute to me, based on her extensive training in clinical psychology, no doubt. This is NOT helpful advice, but sheer insult. Speaking of good advice, I have mentioned in several posts that these birds are NOT all releasable. Yet I continue to receive pesky posts that urge me to just open up my windows and get the birds out. This, too, is not helpful advice, but downright irresponsible and pushy OPINION. Certainly I have received much advice, but mind you, not all of it has been sterling. And, as for AZ Whitefeather, it's nice that you have a handy husband, but not all of us have mates who have mechanical and/or carpentry skills.


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## Dovena

*Response to Lin Hansen*

Each bird that I have rehabbed has been completely checked by an avian vet and has a Certificate of Good Health to show that it is free of any diseases transferable to other birds or to humans. The rest of my birds are these birds' offspring. Only one of my birds has any defect, at all, now, and it is an undetectable defect, at that. They are all beautiful, healthy, and very energetic and robust birds, perfect specimens.


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## feralpigeon

Hi Dovena,

Don't want to be or make suggestions which you find offensive, I do want to make some observations. We all have limits, whether society imposed or self imposed and sometimes they do indeed, overlap. There is no need to list all the varied kinds of limitations that we all experience in life, but we need to be aware of limitations and make adjustments. It's impossible to care for all the sick or injured or vulnerable animals/birds that cross our paths. There are many who do this for a living or are licensed to do so. When we inadequately provide for our pets, we are creating a window of vulnerability that puts them at risk,
not to mention the charges that can be levied against ourselves. It's OK to ask a professional for help, that is, a rehabber or avian vet who will find them a home and spread the joy around, or be experienced in the arena of soft releases. The bottom line here is what is best for the birds and ultimately you.

fp


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## phyll

Dovena,
Thank you for caring about God's creatures.
Please try not to be offended, or insulted, by Lisa's comments. It sounds like she was only trying to help, not hurt, you.
Of course, "opening your windows & letting the pigeons
go," is certainly NOT the answer.
In my "UNprofessional" opinion, your situation is not related to OCD. This disorder is something I am familiar with, as I have lived with it for many years. 
My OCD does not manifest as hoarding, but that doesn't matter. 
Forget about that now, & work on a solution for you & the birds.

I live on Long Island. If you need transportation for the birds, please e-mail me. 

May God bless you.

Phyll


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## pdpbison

Dovena said:


> Each bird that I have rehabbed has been completely checked by an avian vet and has a Certificate of Good Health to show that it is free of any diseases transferable to other birds or to humans. The rest of my birds are these birds' offspring. Only one of my birds has any defect, at all, now, and it is an undetectable defect, at that. They are all beautiful, healthy, and very energetic and robust birds, perfect specimens.


So...why not release them then?

Why have you not been releasing them all along as they come of age to BE released? if all these Birds are then the 'offspring' of a few non-releaseable pairs? Or are these 'pairs' able to fly and so on too?

You have only "one" Bird with any defect? And the defect is not detectable?

Yet none, some, all of your Birds are non-releaseable?


...or they are releaseable but you fear they will not have the same assurances you give them, if free and feral...?


Or?

Dovena...

Please...

Learn to be a "re-habber' who lets them 'go' once they are well and able?


Love, 

Phil
las Vegas


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## Skyeking

Hi Dovena,

I'm glad you took the eggs away from the siblings. That was a good move, you can provide them with dummy eggs, as I do with Skye and Sonic. Sounds like your birds are in excellent health.

Have you had a chance to seperate the hens from the males? I know this is probably a major task, but it will keep the population from increasing further, and also keep the siblings from continuing to mate. 

Do you have access to a regular pigeon mix, that has 7 to 10 % protein? That will help slow down egg production. If you are giving them a breeding mix (which is up to 15% protein) that will also keep the sex drive and egg production going. Also you can add barley (not pearl barley, however) to the mix, which is also a natural birth control, which decreases the sex drive, up to 15% of the mix. 

You can start by seperating as many of the single birds as possible, any youngster that hasn't matured yet, but is eating on its own. Seperate any hen and male that is not breeding (using the new seed mix). Continue to do this daily, once all babies are grown you can seperate those parents, also.

Do you have any large cages to house the youngsters? They should not be breeding at all, if they are immature, and the seed mix will help with that also. Eventually you can put the males in one room and the hens in another.
You will need only large cages for the youngsters until they are matured and can go in with the males or females.

This is a tremendous task, I know, as I'm going to be seperating mine, if you would like help, let us know. I used to worry about the emotions if I seperated them, but I've noticed they will be better seperated for a time. It will be hard at first, but pigeons adjust. The hens need a vacation from the males, it will give them time to re-group, put them in a vacation mode, & allow them time to eat in peace and quiet. Sometimes the hens seem a little stressed trying to eat at the feeders at breakfast time, when the males are constantly trying to push them out of the way, so they can eat first, or flirting with them and annoying them. Males don't have any manners when it comes to food, they chow down first even leaving their mates to eat last.

I've even seperated some hens temporarily from the males, putting them in a nice enclosed porch, where they get a chance to rest and relax from the group, they get a chance to de-stress from interactions with their mates, and they don't really miss them, just their lives inside the coop, which they can resume with the hens also.

This will also help you prepare the birds, when you find them new homes.


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## Whitefeather

Dovena said:


> Yes, I have received some good advice and I have taken it.
> 
> *I have removed new eggs that were laid by sibling pairs*, because Treesa said that the babies might be born with birth defects. *So I have in fact followed the birth control advice. *
> 
> *Speaking of good advice, I have mentioned in several posts that these birds are NOT all releasable*.
> 
> *And, as for AZ Whitefeather, it's nice that you have a handy husband, but not all of us have mates who have mechanical and/or carpentry skills.*


Hello Dovena,
First & foremost, you are exactly right in that there were some statements made that shouldn't have been.

With regard to birth control: If babies are still still being, one of two things is happening, either you aren't following the birth control advice offered to you or the form of birth control you are using is not adequate. 

With regard to disposition: I realize not all rescued birds can be released. I have 9 to prove that point. However, the ones that can be released, should be, but you have continued to find reason *not* to release the releasable ones.  
We all have concerns of hawks, feral cats, even humans when we release a bird back into the wild. 

With regard to _my husband_: He plays an important role in our birds lives. Yes, I did mention he built an aviary when I was addressing you statement:

"_*Some of the moderators on this site have quite a few birds themselves, but have the luxury of greater space and time to care for the birds*_"

I was explaning that *I* certainly didn't *always* have the luxury of greater space for my birds, which you seem to think Moderators have. Not sure where you got that notion, but it has taken us 3 years to fulfill our dream of having an aviary for our birds.
The credit would have gone to whoever built the aviary, just happens it was my husband.  

Cindy


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## Dovena

*Response to "pdpbison"*

Please review "Trees Gray's" releasability criteria. It's not only the injured ones that are not releasable. Why do I have to keep saying that? It appeared that everyone read the criteria and agreed it was excellent. Yet all these posts stating that, as long as they are healthy, out they go.


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## Dovena

*Reply to AZ Whitefeather*

Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. I never ever implied that moderators on this group have advantages that others of us do not have. Why would I think that? I was merely addressing "Ratified's" opinion that those who have way "too many" birds have a psychological disorder. The point about the moderators is that many of them simply have a lot of birds because they love the birds and realize it would not be a good idea for those birds to be released. The fact that they choose to keep many birds doesn't make them nuts. And you responded by explaining something altogether different, based on your assumption that I thought that the moderators have all sorts of perks. I never thought that. Geez...


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## Dovena

*Thanks, Treesa*

Thank you, Treesa. I didn't separate the males from the females, because I was advised that one must not separate a bird from its mate and I trusted that advice. I do not have an extra room right now, but am working on it.
I really appreciate your releasability criteria. Sure, my birds are healthy, but that doesn't mean I am about to open the windows. You state multiple criteria, not only one -- good health. I wonder how many people who read your post remember what they read. It appears that another read is in order.
I will let you know what happens and thank you for your goodwill, which is much appreciated.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Dovena, 

Please understand that everyone here is very concerned, concerned about you and concerned about the pigeons multiplying in your apartment. Everyone has been very kind, compassionate and we're just trying to understand your point of view as well as your long term plans.

I've kept silent in this thread, although I did give my opinion in an earlier thread of yours regarding the ethics of replacing eggs. So, I have been mostly listening and reading and wondering about what's been discussed. I have a few questions for you that perhaps you've already mentioned but I lost track of.

1) how many pigeons in total do you have now?
2) do you plan on letting them continue to breed?...if so, why?
3) are these birds on the tame side or are they more wild/feral acting?
4) do you really believe that letting the birds multiply in your apartment is what's best for the birds?
5) what would you do if something happened to you unexpectedly, do you have a back up person to look after all these birds?
6) what would you do if your building manager found out that you were keeping all these pigeons? Would he throw you and the pigeons out on the street?

Sorry, I had more questions than I thought, might think of more later as well In any case, if you could answer these for me because these are questions that I don't really recall the answers to and I'm just curious about


Thank you very much,


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## Whitefeather

Dovena said:


> Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. I never ever implied that moderators on this group have advantages that others of us do not have. Why would I think that? I was merely addressing "Ratified's" opinion that those who have way "too many" birds have a psychological disorder. The point about the moderators is that many of them simply have a lot of birds because they love the birds and realize it would not be a good idea for those birds to be released. The fact that they choose to keep many birds doesn't make them nuts. And *you responded by explaining something altogether different, based on your assumption that I thought that the moderators have all sorts of perks.* I never thought that. Geez...


Dovena,
I have reviewed my posts & I don't feel there was any assumption made.
I responded to the statement you made, as it was written:

_"*Some of the moderator* on this site have quite a few birds themselves, but *have the luxury of greater space and time to care for the birds"* _

by explaining *my* *personal* situation. Period. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cindy


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## Dovena

*Reply to "Pigeonpal2002"*

Your questions are not really questions, Brad. Or they are what are called "loaded questions." They are not objective, but are rather editorial. Why do you suggest that anyone may soon be throwing anyone else out onto the street? Why do you speculate that someone intends to allow birds to multiply like rabbits from here to eternity? Why do you assume that God forbid their caretaker gets hit by a truck, no one else would step in to take over the care of the birds? You appear to have already formed strong impressions, and your questions are more for the sake of confirming your prejudiced view. My current plight has not been presented for entertainment value or for your satisfaction in being morally superior or right. Much of this masked "concern" that is expressed is really nothing more than sitting in judgment, and what gives one the right to judge another? I recognize concern and I can smell "opinionated" from a mile away. Your "concerned" post reeks of "judgmental," not of concern.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Dovena, 

I'm truly sorry that you feel that my post and questions weren't sincere. I haven't formed any real opinion yet and my questions weren't meant to confirm or disprove anything that I've been thinking. This was not my intention, I wanted these questions to open up a dialogue so that I could further understand your views pertaining to your current situation.

The reason I asked you about how your building manager would respond to finding out about the pigeons in your apartment is because this is something that anyone should think about and/or be prepared for. We all know that pigeons aren't well liked and management or other tenants in an apartment complex wouldn't approve if they found out. There have been many discussions on this very topic many times before in here.

The reason I asked about whether you had a back up plan if something happened to you (heaven forbid) is because again, this is something that we ALL have to think about as well. I wasn't referring specifically to you dying or anything that drastic but at any time, any one of us could get really sick, injured or be thrust into a situation that totally disrupts our life to the point where we be forced to abandon our animals. If we are single (which I am) this is especially true and I believe you are as well.

You seem to be a very conscientious person and someone who thinks ahead and who wants to ensure the well being of your pigeons and this is just like me too. I think about these things, I have a backup plan for my birds if something was to happen to me. I don't live in an apartment building so I don't have that worry however.

I wish you would understand that I'm genuinely concerned about your pigeons and you. I have nothing to gain here by making a spectacle of your plight but our forum is the only place where we can discuss these issues amoung fellow pigeon lovers without being judged. I'm not a rehabilitator, I'm not an animal rights activist and I don't even live in the USA so I've there is no hidden agenda or plot here.

If you don't want to answer the questions I've asked, that is fine. But please think about them and how they pertain to your own beliefs.


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## phyll

Dovena,
"Not for nuthin'," but as far as I know Brad, he asked those questions because he is truly concerned.
I hope you don't get pissed, but your response was rather unkind.
It seems you are overly sensitive to, or suspicious of, any suggestions given to help you.
Please know that everyone here would very much like to help you solve your problem. Give them a chance, will ya?
Remember, if your pigeons need transportation (now or in the future) please e-mail me. My husband & I would be happy to help out.
Take care.

Phyll


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## Skyeking

Dovena,

Please accept the help that has been offered here. We are legitimate in our sincerety to help you and your pigeons. We have devoted countless hours of time with suggestions, and offers to help find homes, take some of the birds and help with shipping.

We don't gossip, we don't insult, we are here out of our mutual bonds for the love and well being of pigeons everywhere. 

I want to personally thank each and everyone of you who have given your time and offers to help Dovena and her pigeons on this thread.


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## Lin Hansen

Dovena,

One more try..... Just wanted to maybe help you see that Brad's post to you was not for the reasons you believe......


*Your questions are not really questions, Brad. Or they are what are called "loaded questions." They are not objective, but are rather editorial.*

Dovena, Brad is one of the most objective people around. His advice and responses are always reasonable and rational. Any questions he asked you were to better understand your situation in order to offer some helpful advice.


*You appear to have already formed strong impressions, and your questions are more for the sake of confirming your prejudiced view.*

If that's what you truly believe, why don't you answer his questions and prove him wrong?


*My current plight has not been presented for entertainment value or for your satisfaction in being morally superior or right. Much of this masked "concern" that is expressed is really nothing more than sitting in judgment, and what gives one the right to judge another?*

I can guarantee you that not a one of us are finding your situation or it's discussion in the least bit entertaining. On the contrary, it's worrisome and frustrating.

If people here were not truly concerned for you, they would have given up trying to get through to you long ago.

I wish you nothing but the best and I hope you will allow people who are equipped to help you, help you.

Linda


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## Maggie-NC

I am beginning to wonder if "Dovena" is pulling our leg about this situation and whether in fact this problem even exists. I have seen no pictures, only descriptions. Rent is high in NYC and I have wondered from the beginning of this story how someone could afford to rent an apartment just for pigeons.

If the problem is real, I feel more for the pigeons than "Dovena". Terry Whatley said it best in an earlier post that "Dovena" is her own worst enemy.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Lady Tarheel said:


> I am beginning to wonder if "Dovena" is pulling our leg about this situation and whether in fact this problem even exists. I have seen no pictures, only descriptions. Rent is high in NYC and I have wondered from the beginning of this story how someone could afford to rent an apartment just for pigeons.


Hi Maggie, 

It seems to be a real situation that has been confirmed but it is unfortunate that any of us should have reasons to be suspect. Sadly, this is human nature and I'm sure there are times when people are here to just "pull our leg". This situation doesn't appear to be one of those cases.

Your question is valid however about affording a rent for pigeons alone in an apartment, but it's really none of our business how she does it I guess.

This is a problem we've all been thinking about heavily, worried and trying our hardest to help resolve. It's very worrying for both the pigeons and Dovena as it's obviously eating her up with worry. 

*Dovena*, you've got to try to be a little more forthcoming and adaptable. Your thread dealing with this issue has gone on for months and nothing has changed. You want the best for the pigeons and have demonstrated this to us with your very thorough questions and research. With that said though, there does come a time that you have to realize that you're not really alone, that it's ok to ask for help and accept that help. If you really do want what is best for these pigeons, please allow someone you trust here to help you and the birds.


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## feralpigeon

Hi Dovena,

I have copied, and am pasting, the track record on who has posted to this thread:

Dovena 20 Trees Gray 7 pdpbison 6 Lin Hansen 5 Yo Pauly 4 TAWhatley 3 Pigeonpal2002 3 AZWhitefeather 3 ratified 3 Reti 2 phyll 2 feralpigeon 2 Lady Tarheel 2 mr squeaks 1

So that you might have a chance to look at who has posted and how many times. It may feel to you right now that you're very being is under scrutiny and question, but in fact what is happening is that the longer a thread is open, more people view it and have their own unique input to offer, in an attempt to try and find resolution to whatever the issue at hand may be.

Many of our members have had unsettling situations concerning rescues that have spurred us to find better solutions for the birds/pigeons we attempt to help. We have had to "hone-in" on lists of names and numbers and make those calls to listed rehabbers and avian vets and ask the tough questions about their "policies" regarding disabilities,euthanasia, and release criteria and policy. Some of us are more fortunate than others regarding who is available in a given state.

While I feel fortunate that I have the alternatives that my location has to offer, I still have to toggle between the choices dependant on the individual bird. And the one elderly avian vet, who personally comes out to me in the front desk area to genuinely thank me for bringing pigeons to him, I do not want to overload w/birds that I can help and release myself. Round-trip, I can expect two hours of my time, not including getting the bird and preliminary exam and meds before transport.

My landlord, bless his soul, asks me when he visits, how many I have now, and warns me when a flock that I feed is angering neighbors in another area. I currently have six unreleasable birds. I feel that I have too many right now.
If I let one of them out, in a front room in my house, in the evening hours, the cooing from the pijies is loud and I know that my neighbors on both sides can hear them. While I live in a house, the buildings are close, and I can hear normal activities from my human neighbors in separate buildings on both sides. If I did nothing to restrict my pijies from cooing, it could send the police to my door for a noise ordinance infraction. Additionally, with the fear of avian flu spreading quicker than the virus itself, the probing into how I am dealing with pigeons inside my house would be very unwanted. For your information, I was followed last year by the health dept. in SF for feeding ferals. This is serious stuff, and there are serious repercussions for human advocates as well as the birds that are involved. Once "public officials" are involved, there are more ordinances involved as they will do their homework when it comes to violations, bottom line is that we all need to do "our" homework in a very "pro-actively devil's advocate" way so that we don't endanger the very birds that we believe ourselves to be helping.

We are frequently spurred to advocacy through our emotions, that is, our love for these birds. We do, however, need to employ our intellect, as well, to bring about a true and needed balance. What repercussions to my beloved ferals will come to pass as a result of my actions?? This has been an ever present philosophical question throughout many threads that I have read here. 

Please, Dovina, instead of feeling attacked, realize that many here have their own concerns and speak to you not out of condemnation, but concern over both you and your pijies.

Sincerely,

fp

PS-Are you able to verify the noise level of cooing pigeons in your absence?


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## pdpbison

Dovena said:


> Your amazingly complete guide is very helpful, Trees Gray. You have probably saved many lives by posting it. Now can you save mine? None of my 25 birds meets the criteria for release. Many of them are white or some amazing pattern that would definitely stop traffic (no danger to them of cars!) but would also attract hawks and other predators (also anyone with an eye for beauty or the unusual). Quite a few have no fear of people. The rest would be okay to release, BUT FOR the fact that I live in Manhattan and there are "nuisance bird" trappers everywhere, hired by the commercial buildings' management companies to "remove" pigeons. So every one of my birds would fail the releasability test on that standard alone. I am starting to think that maybe the thing to do would be to buy some property -- even a patch of land -- where I could house my birds. I just may get evicted, if not for the birds, then for rendering my apartment uninhabitable. There are lots of droppings and I can't seem to stay on top of the cleaning. And what I dread most is August, which is quick approaching, when the molt occurs. My apartment will soon resemble the inside of a humongous down pillow. I don't know how to drive a car and know nothing about real estate or about buying "plots" other than like staying up 'til midnight to purchase the latest Harry Potter installment. My life is turning into the Diane Keaton movie, "Baby Boom," where the baby girl whom the CEO inherits comes to take over her life, only that it is a flock of beautiful feral and semi-feral pigeons who have taken over mine. This is approaching crisis time and it only hurts when I laugh. Help me. I'm drowning.



So...dovena -


Your criteria for the non-release-ability of 'most-of' your Birds...

Is that they have some White Feathers...or 'some amazing pattern'...

The rest you say are releaseable, yet you do not release them either.

Now, if you were to carefully weigh this as a criteria, can you really still insist that it makes any more sense than say, how you can not release them because they have Wings and might fly away?


C'mon kiddo...

Snap out of it!

Take-the-step...do the deed...

Let them go... 

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather

*Two thumbs up*

Outstanding post fp.  

I am blessed in that I live on a lake & our house, as well as the houses on each side of me, have many trees that house many birds. We have birds singing, cooing & squaking. You name it, we probably have it. We have ducks that seem to enjoy 'talking' to each other from one end of the lake to the other & we are right int he middle.  
So to hear a few pigeon coos coming from our AZ room isn't a bother. However, I still realize, for a variety of reasons, there is a limited number of pigeons I can properly house. 

Cindy


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## fred128

If I could put my two cents in here, most of you know exactly what is happening. One of you hit the nail on the head when OCD was brought out into the open. When a person has to move out of her apartment because the animals have taken it over and it has become unliveable, there is something very wrong. 

Dovena did not realize or could not realize that she put the health of her neighbors, her health and the health of the pigeons into danger. Dried droppings go into the air and then into the ventilation shafts of other apartments. It raises the possibility of at the minimum, allergic reactions and at worst, diseases. All animals, no matter how healthy they are, have droppings that are fertile growing mediums for all kinds of viruses, bacteria and fungi. Dovena said her birds were healthy but I'm sure that by this time, they have fallen victim to the dried droppings they have to live in.

We all read about the man in California who was turned in for keeping over 200 pigeons in a house. This man is probably going to be charged with animal abuse, creating a health hazard, violating the maximum of 4 pigeon rule in his county. He has already been given a court ordered psychiatric evaluation.The birds were sick from a lot of ecoli and salmonella and none except one, could be saved. There is no difference between Dovena and this fellow. 25 pigeons in an apartment are the equivalent of 200 in a house. 

If NYC authorites get wind of what is going on in that apartment, the steps they take to correct the situation will not only affect that entire building, the birds and Dovena but it may also cast pigeon lovers in an even worse light in a city very hostile to feral pigeons. It will make a bad situation even worse for those of us who try to care for these birds responsibly.

When a person obsessively won't let go of an animal, it isn't just the animals that are placed in danger.


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## John_D

Y'know, I reckon Fred has made a good point here that maybe hasn't come up (may be mistaken).

It can indeed not only affect the individual, pigeons and close neighbors - it can cast anyone who cares for pigeons in the kind of light we could do without... unless it can all be happily resolved without anyone getting wind of it. Don't need to elaborate, I'm sure.

John


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## dzoo

*She could end up like this guy*

This man had over 200 pigeons in his home - all but one had to be euthanized by authorities due to neglect by the owner......

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/5713/CA/US/


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## NumberNine

Dovena,

I'm not your friend and I don't live in NYC. So I cannot really help you. But don't you someone you trust nearby AND who is also an animals lover like you?

Maybe you could meet with her/him and talk about the difficulties you are having and seek her/his opinion. Now I'm not saying to follow what someone else is telling you to do, but it might help you broaden your perspective. We are all strangers to you over here and a close friend would know you a great deal more than any of us.

Have you thought about taking the subway/bus to the suburbs and look for a location where there is a large flock of pigeons? Something close to an abandoned building would be great.

I've released hundreds of pigeons. Always with a very large flock. And even today I can recognize some birds that were released weeks or even months ago. 

After finding an appropriate release location. Why don't you release only two and come back the following days to see if you can spot them. Prior to releasing the birds, make sure to drop seeds on the ground to attrack the flock. If you can, feed them sprouting barley.

You must also consider that if ever anything would happen to you, for example, you faint and end up in a hospital, who would take care of the birds? Because you can be sure as hell that if you are not there, they could be killed by your landlord.

So as much as you care and love all your birds, you must think harder and do more to protect them. Safely releasing them among a large flock of pigeons will go a long way towards contributing to their overall welfare. There MUST be places in the suburbs where large flocks of pigeons can be found.

Best of luck.


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## fred128

http://tinyurl.com/acp4b


Pigeon man returns to find only one of his pets left 
Torrance man returned Friday from a forced psychological evaluation after officials euthanized some of the 340 pigeons found at his home.
By Larry Altman
DAILY BREEZE

Gerard "Red" Enright Jr. nestled Twister against his beard Friday, moments after Torrance officials returned his trusted pigeon to him.

"Gimme a kiss, gimme a kiss," he said, smooching the bird whose neck bends over backward.



The Torrance man had begged animal control officials to spare the pigeon, his personal pet among some 340 pigeons -- dead and alive -- kept at his home.

Enright, 61, again denied Friday that he meant to hurt any of the birds removed from his Via Los Altos house Wednesday. Officials found 220 birds in pet carriers encrusted with bird droppings and put 219 of them to sleep because of malnutrition and illness.

About 120 dead pigeons were found in bags and boxes outside the house, and Enright said more were kept in refrigerators inside, including one next to his bed.

Torrance officials spared Twister after Enright pleaded with them when he bailed out of jail. (He was handcuffed and taken for a psychological evaluation afterward at County Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, and was released a few hours later.)

The bird was kept in quarantine until Friday, when officials released it to Enright.

"Oh God, she's the only one left," Enright said while trying to coax the 4-year-old pigeon from a plastic pet carrier.

Animal control officials, police and supporters looked on as he cupped the animal in his hands and cried.

"They executed them all," he said. "Oh God, they executed them all."

Relieved the bird had not been killed with the others, Enright knelt on the ground outside the police station. He kissed and nuzzled the bird in his beard.

"She's alive," he said to the crowd. "She's alive."

Enright said he had yet to comprehend his loss. For 15 years, he said, he devoted himself to rescuing pigeons from man's ills, including poison and mistreatment. He admitted to operating on some birds, a key reason why animal control officials became concerned at the goings-on in his house.

Only licensed veterinarians can legally do surgery.

People regularly brought birds to him once he gained a reputation as the "pigeon man." An Easy Reader article two years ago declared the attorney a Renaissance man, and soon led residents from as far away as Hollywood to deliver injured birds to him.

But animal control officers and police said the birds were in terrible shape when they served a search warrant Wednesday. Enright's house was deemed so unfit to enter that county health officials closed it down.

Charges are pending, including possible felony counts for the surgery.

Enright said Friday the authorities have it all wrong. Over the years, he had treated some 1,000 birds, most brought to him when veterinarians showed no interest.

"A lot more lived than died," he said. "These little guys I've gotten to know as little beings. Each one has got a personality that's unique."

On Friday, it was difficult for Enright to understand why officials put them to sleep. He said they weren't sick and malnourished because of anything he did. They were ill when they arrived, and he was trying to nurse them back to health.

They should not have been killed, he said.

"If I actually comprehended what they did, I wouldn't have been able to stand here right now," he said.

The dead pigeons that authorities found, he said, were ready for burial or to be sent for testing to see how they died. He just had not taken care of the disposals because he was so busy with the live ones.

Enright said he did find some humor in his plight. His mother, Susie Ann Enright, was instrumental in 1964 in persuading the Torrance City Council to pass an ordinance outlawing anyone from keeping more than four pigeons at home.

Enright's mother wanted the law enacted because nearby coops created dust in the neighborhood. Now her son is a prime violator of the law. (Torrance law today says residents can keep only four pets of any kind without a special permit.)

Enright said he will stay with friends, unsure what to do with his house. He coughed numerous times during an interview, acknowledging that it was a symptom of the dust in his home. 

He said he didn't know whether he will rescue pigeons again. For the moment, he can't.

"I love these birds a lot more than many people love their children," he said


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## Victor

Fred128 and dzoo,

Thank you for submitting the information on Red the attorney pigeon man. His heart was in the right place, but his situation got out of control. Sad, and heartbreaking .


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## ratified

Yes, I was talking about myself. But I thought it might help folks give you some compassion, and, you some insight into yourself. Why not? Anyway I finally mustered up my courage, and took my (feather shedding, dust shedding, constantly crapping, snappy little head and shoulder-riding) rescue out to a semi-rural feral flock, and released her. She was pretty happy--flew right to the roost and stayed up there!
When I got home, I cleaned for hours (and that was just the bathroom where she spent the nights...on the windowsill by days...now I have to figure out what to do about the holdes in the ceramic tile floor. Her recent droppings carved holes in less than a day!) Anyway, I am a lot better off for the release, though I havent stopped worrying. I searched till I found a place that seems free of hawks, rats, and BB guns. I left food for the flock. Now I will go check on her, see if she still wants to stay (vs come to me), and feed everyone again.
Lisa


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## John_D

Well done, Lisa. And it's nice to know she has that choice. No doubt you'll soon find out what that pidge wants to do

John


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## Feefo

Hi Dovena,

I believe you when you say that this situation has only developed over the last year and that you have given over your apartment to the pigeons, but you know that this breeding must stop. If the pigeons continue to multiply the apartment won't hold them and you will collapse under the strain of trying to keep your pigeons stress free, clean and healthy.

Can you at least take steps to stop them breeding? NumberNine drew the benefits of using barley as a feed to stop egg production to our attention in another thread. Is this something that you could try just in order to reduce the rate of multiplication until you have decided what to do about the current residents?

Cynthia


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## minimonkey

Dovena --

I've refrained from commentary on this issue until now, but have been watching for some time with concern for you and your birds.

Ratified made a very valid point --- one which clearly upset you. You may be right that Ratified doesn't have "an extensive background in clinical psychology" -- but I do. I'm a therapist. The situation you are describing and your stated reasons for allowing things to get this out of hand would, indeed, qualify you for a hoarding diagnosis. That is simply a fact. 

I realize that this is a situation that has gotten out of hand, not one that you willingly brought on yourself, but it has reached really problematic proportions. In your adoption thread, you stated that you now have more than 30 birds, meaning the breeding hasn't stopped. It appears the only "birth control advice" you've heeded was to remove eggs from brother/sister mates.

I respect your reasons for not wanting to release the birds -- I agree that releasing them (since most of them have never lived outside your apartment) would be dangerous to them. But, you must do something soon, or you will have an even more dangerous situation on your hands. If anyone finds out about this and calls animal care and control and/or your landlord, you are likely facing eviction and huge fines, possible criminal charges, and the possibility of your birds being seized by the authorities -- who knows what would happen to them then??

Please, please follow up on the offers folks have made to take some of your birds. There really are people who will help you, but you need to be willing to part with your birds and trust that others can care for them. I know it is scary to think about shipping them, but really -- people do it all the time, and it is far safer than doing nothing at this point. If you really want to do what is best for these birds, and I believe you do, you need to get them out of that apartment now. They are living in overcrowded, undoubtedly filthy conditions, and that is dangerous in itself -- being seized by animal control could be far worse. Please, do what is best for them and for you.


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## feralpigeon

Hi Dovena,

Your last post here was #57, and I see that we are up to #76 in posts without any follow up from you. I know you've started other threads raising animal rights issues, but haven't checked back in here. Without you needing to feel as tho you need to respond to every issue raised in the subsequent responses from your last one, is it possible for you to take a moment and fill us in on some of your thoughts regarding some of the issues addressed in this thread? That might be helpful in the overall process.

Best,

fp


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## John_D

Folks -

This thread has gone on with just about everything which can be constructively said having been said.

I strongly suggest that those persons who are in direct contact with Dovena now be left to 'negotiate' without - on this somewhat delicate matter - risk of anyone 'rocking the boat'

John D


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