# How to breed ???



## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

I have a question... How to i breed a yellow check?? I have a few trenton yellow. And i have check. Can i breed those two and get yellow check??


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Move this thread to the Genetics section for more views on your subject.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

FredaH said:


> Move this thread to the Genetics section for more views on your subject.


*DONE   *


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*dilute*

The gene that produces yellow and silver is called dilute, and to answer your question yes you can produce a yellow check. The gene that produces the shield pattern is independent of the color and of dilute.

How long it takes you to get a yellow check will depend on what sex the bird is that is carrying dilute (yellow). Dilute is sex linked. In the first generation she will produce sons that only carry dilute. Since dilute is recessive none of these sons will look yellow but once you pair the sons up half the hens they produced will be yellow. The best mating for a yellow bar hen would be to a blue check cock. All the carrier sons will be ash reds, and if your cock bird did not carry the gene for bar all of them will be checks. It is then easy to pick out an Ash Red check young cock bird and breed him to a check hen of any color.

If your original yellow is a barred cock bird, he has to have two genes for dilute, and all you need to do is pair him to a check hen to get yellow check daughters.


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Thanks chuck. It makes sense. You explained it well enough. I usually get confused reading up on genitics. How about yellow sons? Will it be the oppiste ? I notice you only mention daughters will be yellow check


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Evergreenloft said:


> Thanks chuck. It makes sense. You explained it well enough. I usually get confused reading up on genitics. How about yellow sons? Will it be the oppiste ? I notice you only mention daughters will be yellow check


Here is my senirio, I have a yellow cock and hen . And a blue check hen . And a young check cock ( it will be a couple months before he can breed ) Should I go yellow cock + blue check hen to = yellow carrying dilute sons? Or what about reverse yellow hen to blue cock ?


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Evergreenloft said:


> Here is my senirio, I have a yellow cock and hen . And a blue check hen . And a young check cock ( it will be a couple months before he can breed ) Should I go yellow cock + blue check hen to = yellow carrying dilute sons? Or what about reverse yellow hen to blue cock ?


Let's back up a minute and get some information down. I was assuming you were using an ash yellow bar cock bird and just wanted to get the yellow onto a check pattern, and I now realize that may not be the case. Many Trenton strain homers are not ash yellows they are recessive yellows. The two pictures below show you the difference in the two types of red/yellow Ash Red -Ash Red dilute (ash yellow) is one of the primary colors of pigeons. Recessive red dilute (recessive yellow) is a completely different gene that covers up the primary color of the pigeon when two genes for the recessive red trait are present. Take a look at the two pictures below and let me know which type of red you have in the yellow cock bird.

This picture is a recessive yellow (recessive red dilute) cock bird. Note that the yellow extends to the end of the ends of the flights and ends of the tail feathers.








This picture is an ash yellow (ash red dilute) cock. Notice the flights and tail wash out on the ends and you can see the checks in the shield (even in a terrible picture).


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

I see. I have the recessive yellow. Recessive red dilute guess it is


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Evergreenloft said:


> I see. I have the recessive yellow. Recessive red dilute guess it is


But the second is the color i want. How would i go about that


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

A couple more questions are in order.

What color is the young check cock bird?

Is the yellow hen also recessive yellow?


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Dark check? I also have a blue check hen if that makes any difference? And yes recessive yellow hen.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Ok,

I'll start with the recessive yellow cock on the blue check hen.

Because recessive yellow could be hiding ash red, blue, brown or a combination of any of the two every hen bred off this cock bird is going to indicate his base color or colors if you get hens of more than one color you will know he carries those two colors. *All hens produced off this cock bird will be dilutes,* ash yellow, silver, or khaki. He does not carry a wild type gene at the dilute locus so he can only throw dilute hens. 

All cock birds off this pair will be normal / intense colored. The possibilities for color will be ash red or blue. If you see an ash red it will be a cock bird, and you are in luck because that cock bird will carry dilute from his father, and he can throw ash yellow hens. If you only get blue cock birds, it means the recessive yellow cock bird only has blue to give and you cannot get a yellow check from this pairing. 

Pattern will be inherited independent of color. The recessive yellow cock's pattern is also hidden by the recessive yellow factor so he could be contributing T-pattern, checks, or bars. The blue hen is going to influence the patterns too since two genes are always present one from the dam and one from the sire. You know that the highest order of dominant pattern the hen carries is check, but the hen could also carry bar hidden. If any of the birds are bar you will know both the hen and the cock carry that trait. If any of the birds are T-pattern you will know that came from the cock, and any checks produced could come from either of the parents, and could still also carry bar.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Now on to the young dark check cock bird and recessive yellow hen.

The cock does not carry the dilute gene therefore you will not see any dilute birds in the first generation, but it would be good to test them to see what base color the hen carries. The hen will only carry one color, and she will contribute that color to all the sons off this pairing. Any ash red from this pair is a cock bird and indicates that the hen is ash red. Any blue cock birds off the pair indicates she is blue, and you will never get ash yellow checks of this pair.
If she did throw ash red birds, these cock birds will throw hens on any color hen that will be ash yellows. 

Keep in mind that you do not want any birds in any of the future generations that are recessive red or carry recessive red, or you will be back to square one with more recessive yellow birds.

If you never find a an ash red in these matings you will need to bring one in, and you will be looking at a long process to get an ash yellow check. No ash reds indicates the dilute gene is attached (linked) closely with blue in the two original recessive yellow birds, and that only way to get an ash yellow it to pair up an ash red and get a cock bird that carries both the blue with dilute and the ash red gene. These cock birds with that combination will throw a an occasional ash yellow hen or a cock bird that carries dilute linked to ash red. The mechanism that unlinks dilute from blue, and relinks it to ash red is called crossover, and there is only about a 30% chance of a coverover occurring in any youngster. Crossover for dilute only occurs in a cock with the two colors present.

Let's hope that at least one of you recessive yellows carries the dilute linked to ash red. If not you have a long process to get to the color and pattern you want to create.


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Wow. you are like a mad scientist! Lol. Im getting this slowly but surely. 

Can you show me a picture or differnce between ash red and recessive red? I always read up on genitics but for a beginner.. Its kind of hard to distinguish and differentiate the sceintific name/colors. 

I purchased birds accordingly to color to try and achieve these certain colors. Right now in the pen i have, a few reds ( dont know what kind) i have a recessive red saddle, silver, some blacks and some grizzles. 
Is there a way i can cross these to get yellow bar?


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Evergreenloft said:


> Wow. you are like a mad scientist! Lol. Im getting this slowly but surely.
> 
> Can you show me a picture or differnce between ash red and recessive red? I always read up on genitics but for a beginner.. Its kind of hard to distinguish and differentiate the sceintific name/colors.
> 
> ...


Ops nevermind i think you stated these pairing will possibly throw yellow bar?


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Ya'll will have to excuse the scraggly look to this fellow. He was heavily into the molt. He is a good example of recessive red. With only one gene for recessive red the only indicator that the gene is present is a lacing on the edges of the feather in the squabs that will go away as they molt to adult plumage, and sometimes but not always the inner web of the flights will show red. That lacing may or may not show up well in non-blue pigeons. When you have a bird with two genes for recessive red you get this fellow. Notice that the red extends to the ends of the flights and tail. Also the head is also solid red. This bird is what you would see in your two recessive yellows if they did not carry the dilute gene.








With ash red the ends of the tail and flights wash out to a gray color. Sometimes it is just the very ends of the flights like in this bird and sometimes it is most of the length of the flight as in barred birds. I picked this bird because it is a T-pattern ash red. T-pattern ash reds can sometimes be hard to distinguish from recessive reds but the tail will always give them away. Ash red T-pattern birds with with white flights and tails can be very hard to distinguish from recessive reds, but if you look closely sometimes they will have the ash edging on the secondaries and an ash tint to the the head. This bird is the ash red color you will need to produce the ash yellow birds, but you want a check pattern. T-check is a much darker checker pattern than check.


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Awsome. I have a hen of that color right now. How do i make that yellow check possible?? 

And thanks! You elaborate very clearly


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Evergreenloft said:


> Awsome. I have a hen of that color right now. How do i make that yellow check possible??
> 
> And thanks! You elaborate very clearly


Ash red hen to be clear


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Evergreenloft said:


> Awsome. I have a hen of that color right now. How do i make that yellow check possible??


You put that hen on the recessive yellow cock bird. No matter what color or colors the cock bird carries the sons off this pair are going to be ash red, and they will carry one copy of the dilute gene. The hens will help you determine if the recessive yellow cock bird also carries ash red or if he is blue. You will know the cocks and the hens in the nest. Anything normal colored will have normal down length. Any hen will be a dilute, and appear near naked with very little and short down in the nest. You could get lucky and get an ash yellow, but if not you will need to breed out of the sons. If the sons get blue from their father it will usually show in the ash read flights and tail as dark blue to black flecking. That won't be a good sign for your project as it means they carry blue and that the dilute gene from their father will be tied to the blue color. You will be breeding out of them watching for the 30% chance for the dilute to cross over to the ash red color. You may have to raise a lot of birds off them before you succeed in getting the ash yellow. All dilutes off these sons will be hens, and you may get a son off them that will have the crossover of dilute to ash red, but you won't be able to tell it by looking at him.

I would go ahead and breed the recessive yellow hen to the blue check cock to to see if she might be ash red beneath the recessive yellow.


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## Evergreenloft (Aug 21, 2016)

Chuck K said:


> Evergreenloft said:
> 
> 
> > Awsome. I have a hen of that color right now. How do i make that yellow check possible??
> ...


Why is that? I mean im just trying to make sense of it. If i want an ash red out of the yelloe and blue. How come the red just doesnt dish that out?


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Evergreenloft said:


> Why is that? I mean im just trying to make sense of it. If i want an ash red out of the yelloe and blue. How come the red just doesnt dish that out?


There are two types of red, and to get an ash red out of yellow and blue your yellow has to carry ash red. Your yellows are recessive red, and without a test mating you can't know if they are blue, ash red, or brown pigeons. I believe most of the Trenton homers are going to be blue based recessive reds. The only way to know for certain is to make the test matings.

Breeding from the cock to a blue hen will show if he carries ash red. Breeding from the hen to a blue cock will show if she carries ash red. Ash red is dominant to blue, and when present will be expressed. If neither of your recessive yellows carry ash red, you have a long road around to try to bring in ash red and then align the dilute gene on the chromosome with ash red instead of the chromosome with blue.

This link should take you to a downloadable copy of an old book that in my opinion is the absolute best starting place for folks wanting to learn about pigeon genetics. The book is out of print. The fellow that has this posted on his site has permission of the widow to make the book available in pdf form. The name of the book is The Pigeon Breeders Notebook by Joseph Quinn. It covers sex-linked genes (basic color & dilute are sex linked). It also covers recessive red and patterns and whole host of other information. It's only fault is that it does not provide color pictures as a reference point, but the descriptions will allow you to find examples on the net.

http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/rhuntley/quinn.pdf


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## Skogsdua (Apr 15, 2016)

Thank you Chuck for adding the pictures to this tread, to show the difference between ash red/ash yellow and rec. red/rec. yellow. Suddenly my mind opened up to the information laying right in front of me on how to see the difference in my own pigeons with white flights. Of course I've seen some of them with full flight-length covered with color, and some of them fading out, not recognizing what I did see. I'll keep an extra eye one the squabs next year too.

I have a question though, about your rec. red cock. I notice he has two different colors in his shield, is this due to the molt, or is he like this always? 



Chuck K said:


> Ya'll will have to excuse the scraggly look to this fellow. He was heavily into the molt. He is a good example of recessive red. With only one gene for recessive red the only indicator that the gene is present is a lacing on the edges of the feather in the squabs that will go away as they molt to adult plumage, and sometimes but not always the inner web of the flights will show red. That lacing may or may not show up well in non-blue pigeons. When you have a bird with two genes for recessive red you get this fellow. Notice that the red extends to the ends of the flights and tail. Also the head is also solid red. This bird is what you would see in your two recessive yellows if they did not carry the dilute gene.
> View attachment 41721
> 
> 
> ...


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Skogsdua said:


> I have a question though, about your rec. red cock. I notice he has two different colors in his shield, is this due to the molt, or is he like this always?


That color difference is the molt. Recessive reds and browns in my homers tend to fade in the sun, and when they first molt back in the fall the feathers are a lot more intense in color. That bird started off as a very poor recessive red, and at times he still looks that way. I have seen him look dark brick red after the molt. I didn't raise him, and suspect part of the reason he gets lighter is that he is ash red under the recessive red. Really good recessive reds need some of the darkening factors like sooty, dirty, and smoky in their genetic makeup.


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