# One Loft Races



## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Here is a list of survival ratio's for the one loft races which I tracked this year: 
American International Challenge 45%, Blue Bucket Stampede 86%,* California **Classic 96%*, Flamingo International Challenge 84%, Kansas Prairie Classic 78%, Mercedes Classic 82%, North American Breeders Cup 92%, Oklahoma Twister 88%, Pacific Northwest Challenge 54%, Plymouth Peak Pro Challenge 48%, Route 66 92%, San Francisco Bay Area Triple Crown 37%, Shasta Classic 41%, Sierra Ranch Classic 63%, Spirit of Colorado 49%, Winners Cup 34%.


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

*Tea For One*

Good info. Thanks


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> Here is a list of survival ratio's for the one loft races which I tracked this year:
> American International Challenge 45%, Blue Bucket Stampede 86%,* California **Classic 96%*, Flamingo International Challenge 84%, Kansas Prairie Classic 78%, Mercedes Classic 82%, North American Breeders Cup 92%, Oklahoma Twister 88%, Pacific Northwest Challenge 54%, Plymouth Peak Pro Challenge 48%, Route 66 92%, San Francisco Bay Area Triple Crown 37%, Shasta Classic 41%, Sierra Ranch Classic 63%, Spirit of Colorado 49%, Winners Cup 34%.


Doesn't it seem that each race is different each year?


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Yes that is very possible. These are just stats to compare, but I have heard nothing but good from various people about the California Classic. John Timmerman trains them well, and monitors their health closely. I am definitely entering his race next year, but many more than two birds, which is what I had entered this season.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> Here is a list of survival ratio's for the one loft races which I tracked this year:
> American International Challenge 45%, Blue Bucket Stampede 86%,* California **Classic 96%*, Flamingo International Challenge 84%, Kansas Prairie Classic 78%, Mercedes Classic 82%, North American Breeders Cup 92%, Oklahoma Twister 88%, Pacific Northwest Challenge 54%, Plymouth Peak Pro Challenge 48%, Route 66 92%, San Francisco Bay Area Triple Crown 37%, Shasta Classic 41%, Sierra Ranch Classic 63%, Spirit of Colorado 49%, Winners Cup 34%.


 Thank you for sharing that.

How exactly are your arriving at a "survival" percentage. Although a number is a good measuring tool, it is often a good idea to have an understanding as to how the number was arrived at. 

One factor, which might have a bearing on what the relevance of that number, is the total number of miles, and number of races flown. I am not familiar with many of the events listed. It could make a different in my mind, if a particular One Loft has only a single 300 mile event, and does that percentage represent number that made it to that race, or actually completed the race ? 1st race or last race ? If one event has a single race, another 3, and yet another 6, we may be comparing apples and oranges. 

An event could have a high % make it to first race, but only because far fewer training tosses were given. Another outfit could have fewer % make it to 1st event, but have much higher % actually finish the event. 

Although percentage completing series of events, may give some insight as to the quality of care, and knowledge of trainer. There are many other subjective criteria which may have more of a bearing on whether one should support an event. But, information which is not readily available.

Just a few that happen to pop into my head.

1. % of participants who return to venue after using service ( might indicate customer satisfaction)

2. % of participants who would recommend to a friend

3. % of slots filled relative to capacity ( a One Loft event posting prizes based on 800 paid entries, but they only have 400 entries, could be a sign of a lack of support

4. Would be curious to know, what difference, if any, the higher price entry fees might have on returns. If there is any kind of bearing if the entry fee is $100 or $1000. Degrees of quality, are they impacted if fancier is only paying a $100 to enter a bird, or pays more then $1000 ? 

5. A collection of a survey from participants, the more detailed the better, could provide many of the answers, but I don't see any Consumer Reports type research being conducted any time soon. There are many factors which I assume go into making a group of breeders happy. Just a few, communication, care of birds, look of birds when returned, transparency, archives of previous races ?, professional web site ?, standing of race event within pigeon community, level of competition, number of breeders, numbers of birds, value of top prize, etc.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

bbcdon said:


> Yes that is very possible. These are just stats to compare, but I have heard nothing but good from various people about the California Classic. John Timmerman trains them well, and monitors their health closely. I am definitely entering his race next year, but many more than two birds, which is what I had entered this season.


I looked into this race and considered it. I ended up not sending birds because my hens weren't laying on schedule this year. I may do it next year, but, I was just looking at the Route 66 race and the entry and payout is more to my liking as an amateur, so I may do that one.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Thank you for sharing that.
> 
> How exactly are your arriving at a "survival" percentage. Although a number is a good measuring tool, it is often a good idea to have an understanding as to how the number was arrived at.
> 
> ...


Like I said, to give a simple answer to a complicated reply, they are just stats as to the percentage of birds which are in the last race to the number of birds 
that are in the first race. That is all, if you want more analysis of the races as stated in your reply, then be my guest!!!


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I almost forgot. Congratulations on your results in the Winners Cup 350 mile race!


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

bbcdon said:


> Yes that is very possible. These are just stats to compare, but I have heard nothing but good from various people about the California Classic. John Timmerman trains them well, and monitors their health closely. I am definitely entering his race next year, but many more than two birds, which is what I had entered this season.



you also have to consider that the birds have to tackle 50 miles of hills and mountains approaching home. i am also amaze on CA Classic survival results. i think one of the reasons is his training regimen. CA classic has a lot of training tosses compared to other OLRs.

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/races/listRacesT.php?skin=calcla















kalapati
San Diego


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## texasroundheads (Nov 23, 2012)

have you ever figured these survival %'s before don? i wonder why some are so low.......in the mercedes mardis is very careful to only train and race them on what i would consider nice days.......while their certainly not all blow homes, you won't see them out in any kind of weather.......while this would favor a certain type of bird i think...the object of the handler is to get the contestants to the money race so the have a chance to win.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

No I haven't. Like I said they are just ratios for this season, that is all.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

In order to understand the various percentages, I took the #1 on your list the Classic and compared to lowest ranked Winners Cup.

Number of entries:

Classic 810 see : http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/breeders/listBreeders.php?skin=calcla

Cup 383 see : http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/breeders/listBreeders.php?skin=winner

Number entering 150 mile race

Classic 570 entered / returned 560 

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=Nzk=&skin=calcla&refresh=1


Cup 238 entered / returned 207 

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=Mg==&skin=winner&refresh=1



*Classic birds *entered 810 returned from 1st race 560 = *69% returns*

*Cup *birds entered 383 returned from 1st race 207 = *54% returns*

So with my math, Classic did show a higher % of returns by 1st race of 69% to 54%, much better but far from the 96% vs 34% the picture you show. I don't even now if the above is still a perfect comparison, because the Cup also had a 100 mile warm up race, in which the above % would improve slightly from 383/ 239 or *62%* if we used the Cup's 1st race.

If we ignore the fact that the Classic only flies a 150, 190, and then a 300, optional 338 mile race, yet to be flown. While the Cup has a 100,150,200,250 and then a 300, lets, look at % returning from the 300. 

*Classic* 300 = 810 / 329 return for a return rate of *40% *


http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=OTg=&skin=calcla&refresh=1

*Cup *300 = 383 / 159 = return for return rate of *41%*

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=NQ==&skin=winner&refresh=1

Now, by the time we get to the final event, the Classic as of this writing, has yet to fly the final race, but it appears that 108 birds out of 810 made it to this race 810/ 108 or only *13%* of the Classic birds are around for the 338 mile event. The Cup in contrast, had 81 birds in the final event 383/81 or *21%*

I only went through this excersise to demonstrate that the numbers do not always represent what is going on. If one would simply accept your numbers at face value, one would assume that the Classic only lost 4% of their birds, and the Winners Cup comes off as the worst preforming One Loft event of the bunch for losing birds. My analysis would seem to indicate that the Cup actually did better, especially when one considers they flew two more races and an additional 370 miles. Those little details would cause me to disregard for the most part the % rating you gave those One Loft events. It may be interesting, but perhaps not all that relevant.


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

.

there were several late birds that made it home at the Classic and were not clocked because the clock froze. my bird is one of those. 108 represents only paid entrees for the final 2nd Wind or Mega which is tomorrow.


kalapati
San Diego





SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In order to understand the various percentages, I took the #1 on your list the Classic and compared to lowest ranked Winners Cup.
> 
> Number of entries:
> 
> ...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

kalapati said:


> .
> 
> there were several late birds that made it home at the Classic and were not clocked because the clock froze. my bird is one of those. 108 represents only paid entrees for the final 2nd Wind or Mega which is tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Same at the Cup, Flamingo and others, it is an add on optional race, so applying a percentage to those who decide to fly the optional race is misleading. If one is to use percentages, then I think we should be comparing apples to apples. Clock was turned off at some point at the Cup as well, as birds will show up late.


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## calzephyr (Dec 22, 2009)

I would think that the survival rate would be calculated one of two ways:

1) the # of birds shipped to the first race - minus - number of birds that finished the last race.

or,

2) the # of birds listed in inventory prior to training - minus - the number of birds that finished the last race.

The first method does not take into account birds lost during training and from sickness prior to shipping to first race.

From the managers perspective, it should be "how many birds did i accept into my care" vs. "how many birds were left in my care after the race (or races) were over."

just my two, or three, cents.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In order to understand the various percentages, I took the #1 on your list the Classic and compared to lowest ranked Winners Cup.
> 
> Number of entries:
> 
> ...



How can you disregard the fact that the race lists the number of birds in a certain race. That is a constant factor. I do have to admit though, that your 5 paragraph answer illustrates your love of the pen!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> How can you disregard the fact that the race lists the number of birds in a certain race. That is a constant factor. I do have to admit though, that your 5 paragraph answer illustrates your love of the pen!


 Love of pen, and attention to detail. 

At the end of the day, I will rely more on recommendations from breeders who have flown in particular events. When guys like *kalapati* support an event such as the California Classic, and would support such an event again, then I am much more inclined to support such an event myself. I don't see myself putting much weight on a single statistic when it comes to selecting race venues. But, hey, that is me.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Love of pen, and attention to detail.
> 
> At the end of the day, I will rely more on recommendations from breeders who have flown in particular events. When guys like *kalapati* support an event such as the California Classic, and would support such an event again, then I am much more inclined to support such an event myself. I don't see myself putting much weight on a single statistic when it comes to selecting race venues. But, hey, that is me.


Again, I never stated that the ratios were meant to be the determining factor for a flier's decision as to which race to enter. It was as I said before, just a single statement of facts as to the number of birds going to the last race, in relation to the number of birds going to the first race!!! Got it???


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

bbcdon said:


> Again, I never stated that the ratios were meant to be the determining factor for a flier's decision as to which race to enter. It was as I said before, just a single statement of facts as to the number of birds going to the last race, in relation to the number of birds going to the first race!!! Got it???


I think you have done a great service. Why enter birds where there is a servival percentage of say 38 when there are people handling birds with 90+ ?

Apples to oranges??? 38% apples to 90+% oranges. Period!


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I believe, any information is good information. The more intel you have on a specific race, the better decision you can make about where your birds will perform the best.

Maybe your birds are bred for those tough races? The one loft races with a lower survival rate might be a better fit for you than those higher survival rate races. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want to succeed at pigeon racing you need to adapt to the changes. We can already see pigeon racing has advanced since the past with the addition of electronic clocks. Who knows what the future has in store? The more data you have on hand, the more likely you are to succeed (if you make the right decisions).


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Except his math is off.


I looks like you think everyone is off except you. You are dismissed Sir.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> Again, I never stated that the ratios were meant to be the determining factor for a flier's decision as to which race to enter. It was as I said before, just a single statement of facts as to the number of birds going to the last race, in relation to the number of birds going to the first race!!! *Got it???*


No I don't, in your list, you give California a 96%, in spite the fact that only 108 out of 810 went to the last optional race, yet you use figure of 96%. I took 5 paragraphs to explain your math error, so I don't see it as a statement of fact. 

810/108 = 13% Still don't see how you arrive at 96%


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Except his math is off.


I take it you also have a BS in math *"SALTY ONE"*?


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> No I don't, in your list, you give California a 96%, in spite the fact that only 108 out of 810 went to the last optional race, yet you use figure of 96%. I took 5 paragraphs to explain your math error, so I don't see it as a statement of fact.
> 
> 810/108 = 13% Still don't see how you arrive at 96%


*"SALTY ONE"* is not going to concede on anything unless it pertains to the races he enters!!! Just ask Bill Hatcher, who he carries water for!!!


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Can you believe it? I just checked the Flamingo International Challenge website, and the *"SALTY ONE"* placed 135th and 154th out of 156 birds in the average speed results!!! Maybe the birds got entangled in their own prop blast!!!


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

Boy jealousy is an evil creature


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> Can you believe it? I just checked the Flamingo International Challenge website, and the *"SALTY ONE"* placed 135th and 154th out of 156 birds in the average speed results!!! Maybe the birds got entangled in their own prop blast!!!


People who live in glass houses, should not throw stones. As I see the ZEPPELIN LOFT crashed and burned at the *California Classic that you gave a 96%* rating for. Apparently those statics did not apply to your birds, as they look like they crashed and burned. 


ZEPPELIN LOFT10018-AU12-ZEPPDC C * N/E* lost
12-06-2012
288
ZEPPELIN LOFT 1 0019-AU12-ZEPP BC H *N/E* lost
12-06-2012

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/birds/listBreedersBirds.php?bid=288&skin=calcla



The first step in winning One Loft events, after one actually enters and sends birds, is that the birds must be able to find their way home.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The twister and the gusher should have a high return %. They are due up wind along I40. If a bird cannot fly downwind along an interstate then they deserve to get lost. Hell Even my wife can Drive from Tucumcari to OKC without getting lost. Probably only have to turn the wheel once or twice. Not to mention it is down hill.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If I am not mistaken Flap flies the same route as the California race. Much harder course.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The Winners Cup is flow with a head wind. I would expect a few more losses. Also flown over wooded area as opposed to the Twister/Gusher races. We have a flier, Ken Easley, who's overfly and last 15 miles are from 5000 up and over 12000 feet Sandia Mountains and down to about 7000 feet. When the club flies do West he is at quite a disadvantage. He can only train his birds to break straight up. He still does not do to badly. He arguably has the best birds in the club and needs them. Not all race courses are made the same.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think the toughest race my birds have ever flown was from Grand Junction Colorado 300 to 350 miles due south to ABQ NM. They had to fly over 3 Mountain passes, Red Mountain, Molas and Cole Bank straight through the San Juan Mountains with numerous 14K peaks. The guy flying my bird had two come in the next morning out of only 6 birds that made the race. He bred them together and they raised the 6th at 175 at the Sierra Classic this year. The bird also finished all the races. Donner Pass was nothing for that pairing.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Did I hit a nerve *"SALTY ONE"*? You don't like it when someone points out the results in the two different races which you participated in, but you asked for it with your arrogant attitude!!!


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

de·men·tia (d-mnsh)
n.
1. Deterioration of intellectual faculties, such as memory, concentration, and judgment, resulting from an organic disease or a disorder of the brain. It is sometimes accompanied by emotional disturbance and personality changes.
2. Madness; insanity.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

triple7loft said:


> de·men·tia (d-mnsh)
> n.
> 1. Deterioration of intellectual faculties, such as memory, concentration, and judgment, resulting from an organic disease or a disorder of the brain. It is sometimes accompanied by emotional disturbance and personality changes.
> 2. Madness; insanity.


I don't know if you are aware of it triple7, but you posted this on the other thread! I suggest that you make an appointment with your MD, and ask him to examine you for the early onset of dementia!!!


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

Jesus don what is your problem? no matter the thread you are out to trash warren. You are getting down right nasty and in your wake of anger are starting to pull others into your path. either cool down or get off the forum....


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I like this thread. It's motivating me to get serious about racing and send birds to these one lofters.


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

I like this thread too!!


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Warren,
Turn around and talk louder we can't hear you up front!


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

swagg said:


> Jesus don what is your problem? no matter the thread you are out to trash warren. You are getting down right nasty and in your wake of anger are starting to pull others into your path. either cool down or get off the forum....


Sorry to tell you this, but I don't take orders from you. Like the *"SALTY ONE"* once said, *"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen"!!!*


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

texasroundheads said:


> have you ever figured these survival %'s before don? i wonder why some are so low.......in the mercedes mardis is very careful to only train and race them on what i would consider nice days.......while their certainly not all blow homes, you won't see them out in any kind of weather.......while this would favor a certain type of bird i think...the object of the handler is to get the contestants to the money race so the have a chance to win.




i think even the Mercedes Mardis has bad training tosses. look at this snapshot I took the day after their 45 mile training. they only have 546/792 which is only 69% same day returns. and a day after i posted this snapshot at this forum the record was deleted. not sure if they did it intentionally. I think a good OLR management doesn't delete records even if they have bad results.

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReportC.php?skin=cbsmercedes&rid=MQ==















kalapati
San Diego


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

You got me !!!!




bbcdon said:


> I don't know if you are aware of it triple7, but you posted this on the other thread! I suggest that you make an appointment with your MD, and ask him to examine you for the early onset of dementia!!!


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm sure these different survival rates could and probably will change from year to year.


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

bbcdon said:


> Sorry to tell you this, but I don't take orders from you. Like the *"SALTY ONE"* once said, *"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen"!!!*


Ahhh I see how it is. now were allowed to bring this forum down and get down right nasty. clearly you dont take orders. people like you typically dont. its all about them come hell or high water. your trying to prove some non existant point. there was a guy around here once that was a negative jerk wad and brought every thread down. i see your heading down his path. Very few will miss you


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

bbcdon said:


> Sorry to tell you this, but I don't take orders from you. Like the *"SALTY ONE"* once said, *"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen"!!!*


As always you never did answer the question. What is your problem ?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Please refrain from personal attacks to members or the thread will be closed.

Reti


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

swagg said:


> As always you never did answer the question. What is your problem ?


I would think bbcdon's problem with Warren is almost the same as mine. It's that fact that he comes on here and diminishes too many people's hard earned success. One of the first experience I had on this site was him bashing my yellows saying they only won because of my loft location or some other factor that made the race turn in my favor. It couldn't be they were good birds and I was a good handler it was I had some advantage. And he has done it on other occassions when I've posted successes and on successes others have posted. But I worked and built up a family of color birds that win, flying in a 150 loft combine, in a location that no matter what wind we get I'm at a disadvantage to somebody being pretty much in the middle of the lofts that I compete against. I don't mind all his bragging if you do something good or win something by all means you earn the right to brag but there's no need to deminish other ppl's accomplishments.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

As Reti stated, ENOUGH ALREADY!!! If some of you have problems with other members, take it up with them personally in private messages. Not in public threads. It would be a shame for others to lose this thread because of personal grudges between some of you! 

Let's let this thread get back on track.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

And hopefully these warnings are also directed at one of your Moderators,or do they get more lead way then regular members? If yous go back and read through this Moderator's posts he surely shows no Tact nor Respect for others when he's posting,and he's a Moderator???


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Josepe said:


> And hopefully these warnings are also directed at one of your Moderators,or do they get more lead way then regular members? If yous go back and read through this Moderator's posts he surely shows no Tact nor Respect for others when he's posting,and he's a Moderator???


If you have anything else to say, send me a Private Message. DO NOT continue this in this thread!!!!!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

"True colors shinning through"


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> "True colors shinning through"


????????????????


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Josepe said:


> And hopefully these warnings are also directed at one of your Moderators,or do they get more lead way then regular members? If yous go back and read through this Moderator's posts he surely shows no Tact nor Respect for others when he's posting,and he's a Moderator???


Amen to that!!!


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

hillfamilyloft said:


> "True colors shinning through"


Now Randy, you heard what the moderator said!!! Maybe the warnings just apply to whom they choose!!!


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

*Under My Thumb.*

Yea, more censorship. That's what this world needs??? "Personal attacks" lol. Only on the Internet. Two guys disagreeing on something, I can handle that. Others picking sides for whatever reason, I can handle that. Closing the thread on a public forum over a disagreement, that's a whole other story.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

almondman said:


> As Reti stated, ENOUGH ALREADY!!! If some of you have problems with other members, take it up with them personally in private messages. Not in public threads. It would be a shame for others to lose this thread because of personal grudges between some of you!
> 
> Let's let this thread get back on track.


Well the way I see it bbcdon started a post about OLR's and it was going good till Warren came in and gave Don a full page wing slap, Now unless Warren sent you a PM to put a stop to this, I would like to see how it plays out. Let Warren stand up for him self. JMO
Dave


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

bbcdon said:


> Now Randy, you heard what the moderator said!!! Maybe the warnings just apply to whom they choose!!!


We are defined by our actions. Some of us in this thread and in PT are defining ourselves quite well. Thats all I am going to say. I think the moderators are spot on on this one. Also maybe the moderators that want to join the fight and stir the poop should step down. Time to spray water on this dog fight.


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

Very well said Randy !!!!




hillfamilyloft said:


> We are defined by our actions. Some of us in this thread and in PT are defining ourselves quite well. Thats all I am going to say. I think the moderators are spot on on this one. Also maybe the moderators that want to join the fight and stir the poop should step down. Time to spray water on this dog fight.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

This thread is closed. For those of you who really were interested in the topic of this thread, you have bbcdon, loft532, and several others that think they can continue their rants after being asked to stop and let the thread get back on topic. Are they any better than those they are ranting about?


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