# Do I euthanize or not?



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I have a young pigeon that was hit by a car. No serious injuries, only a hanging wing and wound underneath. Vet advised to put baytril in drinking water for 5 days. I also treated for canker for a week. All meds were finished last week Sunday. In this time he got a pox lesion in the corner of his mouth.

By Thursday there was a thickening in the neck area and sort of a raised blister on the tongue. I put him back on the canker meds and he's already had 4 doses but there's no improvement. He's been open mouth breathing now for 3 days and there's a lot of yellow stuff visible every time a breaths. He stopped eating 2 days ago. Looks as if the whole tongue has turned yellow.

I also started giving Nystatin 2 days ago to rule out yeast infection but he get's in very little cause of the stress he's gasping for air and the stuff goes in the wrong way. Can this be wet pox? Can a yeast infection turn nasty so quickly and interfere with a birds breathing?

He's poops were fine until he stopped eating: turned green and yellow and yesterday very small and black.

I have to start handfeeding him today and hope I will get food into him. Taking photo's is impossible, everything is just blurred.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

This is how he breaths the whole time accompanied with a croaking sound. The pox lesion on the outside is also visible on the inside of his mouth. And when he breaths you can see the white/yellow in the bottom of his mouth and it's quite big.

I gave him a Ronsec tablet diluted in water this morning.

My whole point: Will it be worthwhile forcefeeding this poor stressed bird if he's going to suffocate?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Are you able to crop feed by tube? Critical Care, Kaytee would be good if you can. If you suspect canker nodules in the throat, have you Metronidazole?

In a feral/racing pigeon, the pox can clear up. In some species, though, it tends to be fatal (like our wood pigeons).


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

If u have metronidazole that would be best, how come all my canker meds are only single or double dose pills. Also my metronidazole says can be given in water for 7 days, so try that. If u can get some liquids in him even thin formula twice a day, that will be enough. Friend had bird with grotesquely swollen tongue from pox and she just kept up supportive care and feeding with forcepts thick bites of chopped up sunflower seed hearts with water and put bit by bit into the mouth, the bird ate it and got better and was perfectly fine.

If you treated it for canker for a week, how can it still be canker? I would say continue for a few more days like 5 with another canker med and or the one u still have and feed it the best u can and wait it out if it is pox wet or dry it may pass as her birds did. Dont give up yet.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I gave him metro 50mg a day for a week and since I saw him struggling to breath, started him on about 75mg a day and it's not working.

At least he was pecking at seeds today, but just spit them out when it gets into his mouth. I haven't seen him drinking water at all these last 2 days either. 

I'm terrible at handfeeding. This is totally different to feeding peas to a squeaker that wants to eat. Have never done tubefeeding before.

Got 6 ml of formula down his throat which was very stressful to both of us. If only I knew if this was canker or yeast or wet pox!

Won't give up yet, but he is producing starvation poops.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

How is your bird doing? Hope he is getting better.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Marina B said:


> I gave him metro 50mg a day for a week and since I saw him struggling to breath, started him on about 75mg a day and it's not working.
> 
> At least he was pecking at seeds today, but just spit them out when it gets into his mouth. I haven't seen him drinking water at all these last 2 days either.
> 
> ...


Sounds tough, if it was canker and u tried to crop feed with needle or tube would produce a fatal bleed so if u are doing that and he is not bleeding I would say wet canker and may pass but can also be fatal, not sure bout yeast but if it is, you can try giving apple sauce to clear the yeast warmed of course and thinned with a bit of water. I would say if you can give think formula with electrolytes even at that low dose for a few days just to keep him going, you may luck out.

Thats all you can do, is try and you are doing GREAT. You wouldnt believe how little u can give for him to still survive, the fluids are more vital than food at this point and allow him to swallow and be patient and take ur time.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Some strains of canker are very resistant. If the metronidazole hasn't worked you need to switch to another canker medication. Try Spartrix or Ronidazole if you can get either one. For birds with substantial canker blockage a crop needle can often allow you to get food and meds in without dislodging a canker nodule and causing a bleed. Crop needles are NOT needles but stainless steel syringe attachments that allow you to get down the throat and into the crop. I'd say it's worth it to continue trying. 

That "bump" at the base of the beak might be pox, and if so, dab it with a drying agent like Betadine.

Crop needles look like this (go with the curved one): http://www.squirrelstore.com/product/fnc14-3

Terry


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

I use crop needles all the time. I use the 8 to ten gauge straight ones. Still there is a chance to suffocate the bird by holding the crop needle in too long or forward against the breathing hole, best to watch videos or have a vet show u how to use one. I got mine from vetafarm, a whole set of them in a tube. I also bought a crop needling video years ago. I refresh myself now and then and yes if careful u can avoid a bleed, but it IS risky. Some vets wont even show u how to do it, they dont want to be responsible for the death if done incorrectly. They also sell these 8 inch catheters at the farm supply rubber one that are softer than the needles and my be good in this case quite cheap too, they also sell the syringes. Also have to be very careful not to let formula back up into the mouth and aspirate the bird. Good luck with all you do, at least the bird has a chance this way.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Is not canker but pox, possible with a salmonella complication (the description of droppings). If was canker, would been cleared by now. 

I's say, put him heavily on probiotics & vitamins & good food and if the droppings don't turn to normal aspect, give one or two Lincospectin shots , 0.1 ml / day.

To me, she looks dehydrated as well so some slighlty warm water with honey would be a good yea. 

Also, stop giving Nystatin as is good for nothing. Its principle of action is to bitter the medium in order to reduce candida, but it doesnt give results at birds.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Well, the bird ate some tiny seeds today and drank water, followed by a lot of headshaking and looking miserable afterwards. Also moving the chest in and out. 

I've put Ronidazole in the drinking water today and will continue with that and probiotics and ACV in the water and lets just hope for the best.

Will keep you updated and thanks for the advice.

And CBL, thanks for the advice regarding the dove. He's now happily living in my aviary and doing very well. Will have to get him a mate.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

That is great to hear. Keep up the good work and let us have updates and pics when u can thanks.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Marina B said:


> Well, the bird ate some tiny seeds today and drank water, followed by a lot of headshaking and looking miserable afterwards. Also moving the chest in and out.
> 
> I've put Ronidazole in the drinking water today and will continue with that and probiotics and ACV in the water and lets just hope for the best.
> 
> ...


The yellow stuff in mouth is not from canker but from pox so you should stop give Ronidazol. I had some cases with oral pox and uselessly treated them for canker because they were too yellow.

The blister on tongue probably indicates Candida, even if is not white. I had several cases from three species, a magpie, a crow and a starling with this symptom and found at lab tests at two of them (the starling and the crow) that is candida. The magpie died because I treated for canker at the indication of a vet who consulted her only by watching.

For Candida, Nystatin is ineffective because if doesn't enter the system (the blood). Is a topic medicine that is not absorbed into organism and has effect only on the surfaces it stays longer so in any case won't have effect if candida is in respiratory tract:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nystatin



Gave easily digerable and tasteful food. Blend small seeds of various sorts (wheat, sorghum, millet, small peas) with moisted bread and complete with some warmed Kaytee. You can even get rid of solid food and give only kaytee, as he may have the throat reduced in size by the pox. Also you should give a lot of B vitamins and minerals, not only probiotics. As I said, to me he looks dehydrated (the thin skin around eyes) so he may be suplimentary hydrated If the bird is weak, he may not have the energy to drink all the needed amount of water.


Also, as most medicines are hapatotoxic, you should give hepatoprotective supplements.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Dehydration in birds is indicated by red not pink skin. If the bird seems red then hydrate and I would use an electrolyte not plain water at this stage.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The stuff in the mouth could very well be canker. Even with Metronidazole, it can take much longer to clear if stubborn. Sometimes 2 weeks or so. And also very common for a bird to get canker when stressed with other things, like pox. If the canker is stubborn, then try giving 2 different meds, like Metro and Ronidazole or Spartrix. Often that works. Putting the med in his drinking water won't work, as he won't get enough of the drug. If you can get food into him, it could be mixed into that, but he needs to get the correct dose daily. Be very careful not to aspirate.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

I say giving canker meds cannot hurt, I agree with Jay. Better to be safe than sorry, usually a few diseases go hand in hand when the immune system is down. Also if wet pox, will need time to recover. It can take weeks. The important thing to keep hydrating this bird with electrolytes so that the little he gets, is concentrated nutrition. If u have to feed less food more often go ahead. You can feed a bird like that 6 times a day easily to keep his strength up.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Feeding and hydrating, also giving vitamins (A vitamin as well) & minerals is vital. The mouth pox can kill him or not (if obstruct feeding / respiration) but starvation, dehydration and lack of the aformentioned substances will surely strenghten the disease and finally kill him.

Also you should alternate the vitamins with spirulina, that is, at one meal you give vitamins, at other you mix the water or liquid food with the powder of a spirulina capsule (500 mg). Spirulina must be given in the first part of the day, not in the evening or night.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice, but had to make a decision this morning. He was having serious breathing issues and rather than letting him die a slow death suffocating, I decided to have him put down.

Thanks again for all the input. I know some members will judge me for having this done, I only did what was best for the bird in the end.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Marina B said:


> Thanks for all the advice, but had to make a decision this morning. He was having serious breathing issues and rather than letting him die a slow death suffocating, I decided to have him put down.
> 
> Thanks again for all the input. I know some members will judge me for having this done, I only did what was best for the bird in the end.


No judgement here, you did the best you could, thats all we can ask. Did the vet say WHAT it was at least, can u find out that much, was it canker or candida, they could do a swab and let u know so in future you will know what ur dealing with.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Thanks CBL. Our vet admitted he don't know a lot about birds, he does not treat them that often. When I took the bird to him the first time, he told me the wing was broken and bird will never be able to fly again. Well these last couple of days the bird did started lifting the wing and I'm sure he would have regained total flight if it was not for the illness that took hold of him. 

So just shows you, can't always believe what they say. Pity though.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Marina B said:


> Thanks CBL. Our vet admitted he don't know a lot about birds, he does not treat them that often. When I took the bird to him the first time, he told me the wing was broken and bird will never be able to fly again. Well these last couple of days the bird did started lifting the wing and I'm sure he would have regained total flight if it was not for the illness that took hold of him.
> 
> So just shows you, can't always believe what they say. Pity though.


Ya thats for sure, my sis's daughter took her little dog to vet, vet said, put it down has bad heart problem, sis says NO way, dog has quality of life leave it be. that was TEN YEARS AGO!!!!! Dog is alive and doing fine, so ya, dont listen to vets, they can voice an opinion and YOU always have the right to decide to DISAGREE and carry on.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Marina B said:


> Thanks for all the advice, but had to make a decision this morning.


Euthanasia is never a solution. Bird may recover, even if the chances seem lost. And even if there is no hope for recovery, euthanasia helps with nothing.

People who make from pleasure a cult and the purpose of their life, inevitably come to perceive pain as a sort of nemesis, because of the confusion of values and rigidity of thinking. Pain is not bad, spiritually talking. To empathise is good, is a sign of a healthy soul but to make from hunting the pain a purpose, is deviant, senseless, a sort of idolatry.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Unfortunately sometimes euthanasia is the solution. But not usually. Pigeons are strong creatures, and it is amazing what they can get through with a bit of help and care. Unfortunately on occasion it just isn't enough. Sometimes a hard decision to make. But sometimes it is kinder to just let them go gently.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Your message brings no argument or new perspective. Support for euthanasia is illogical. Euthanasia, as well as the suicide, is not beneficient for the suffering being in any way and from any pov, atheist or religious. 

The hard decission is not required by the bird or other entity. Animals strugle to live in any circumstance, they never commit suicide and even if they would, it doesn't mean is helpful.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

AndreiS said:


> Euthanasia is never a solution. Bird may recover, even if the chances seem lost. And even if there is no hope for recovery, euthanasia helps with nothing.
> 
> People who make from pleasure a cult and the purpose of their life, inevitably come to perceive pain as a sort of nemesis, because of the confusion of values and rigidity of thinking. Pain is not bad, spiritually talking. To empathise is good, is a sign of a healthy soul but to make from hunting the pain a purpose, is deviant, senseless, a sort of idolatry.


Since none of us, but Marina, was actually there to see the condition of this bird I don't think it's fair to second guess the decision that was made. It is NEVER okay to let an animal suffer. AndreiS, in my opinion, I believe that it is you who is being illogical. 

Marina - sorry for your lose and thank you for caring enough to try to save this bird, and having to make the difficult decision. 

Now it is time to end this discussion.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Marina, sorry for your loss. I know you tried.


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