# its an emergency



## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

hi every one

this is my poor , darling king pigeon. yesterday morning I saw him fluffed up in the loft and not intrested in eating or drinking. so I isolated him from the rest of the 20 odd healthy pairs, all breeding and quite happy. now this guy has a strange growth on its beak. what is this? he had very loose, dark green droppings and I fed him a solution of ORS (oral electrolyte powder) about 5 ml along with putting small corn seeds in his mouth 10 seeds at a time. this I,d repeat about 3 hours. He has been dizzy and staggering. later in the evening , I added doxymicine and trisym, a couple of vet medications that I had used earlier on my birds for treating bacterial enteritis.
at one point , before giving the medicine his poop was just yellowish water,,,otherwise it would be dark green with a spread of water on the outside. the images you see are taken this morning and I,d say the poop has improved just a little bit as it has now solidified a very little bit. I continue feeding him the rehydration solution mixed with slight pinches of the medicine and then about 10 to 15 grains of corn or sun flower seed.

I really need help and expert opinion.Thanks


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)




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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)




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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

if you think the images are too large, you may zoom out the page for a better view,,,(ctrl -)


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

My first instinct is that he has some sort of tumor? 

I would take him straight to the vet. 0.0


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

each 100 gm of doxymicine contains doxycycline HCI B.P 10 gms and and trisym contains trimethoprim 8% w/v and sulphadiazine 40% w/v.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> My first instinct is that he has some sort of tumor?
> 
> I would take him straight to the vet. 0.0


thanks Libis,,,is it the beak that you think is the tumor? unfortunately I have no vet in my area.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> thanks Libis,,,is it the beak that you think is the tumor? unfortunately I have no vet in my area.


Yeah, that growth on the beak looks tumor-y to me.  Keep up the antibiotics, I don't know what else to tell you. Can you get a wildlife rehabber or something to help you? Some of them are able to do vet stuff. 

I hope someone else here pipes up who has dealt with this before. 0.0


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> Yeah, that growth on the beak looks tumor-y to me.  Keep up the antibiotics, I don't know what else to tell you. Can you get a wildlife rehabber or something to help you? Some of them are able to do vet stuff.
> 
> I hope someone else here pipes up who has dealt with this before. 0.0


thanks once again,,,and do u think his current condition, the near death weakness, the droppings and all are a consequence of the beak tumor....
I think I may be able to save this poor guy, if I get him back into eating and drinking by his own,,,but as u suspect, that might not be possible with the tumor sitting on his beak...
ah,,this poor baby


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> thanks once again,,,and do u think his current condition, the near death weakness, the droppings and all are a consequence of the beak tumor....
> I think I may be able to save this poor guy, if I get him back into eating and drinking by his own,,,but as u suspect, that might not be possible with the tumor sitting on his beak...
> ah,,this poor baby


My best guess is that the tumor caused weak heath and then he got a bacterial infection as a result of weakness further weakening him. 

Keep him comfortable and keep on going. Keep on looking for someone local who can help too. If he won't eat anything, along with giving him the electrolyte solution that you've been using, maybe you could give him some defrosted frozen peas by hand? (Do not defrost in the microwave--it causes pockets of burning hot.)

Unfortunately, without having checked the poops in a lab, we can't know if we're using the correct antibiotic for the presumed bacterial infection.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> My best guess is that the tumor caused weak heath and then he got a bacterial infection as a result of weakness further weakening him.
> 
> Keep him comfortable and keep on going. Keep on looking for someone local who can help too. If he won't eat anything, along with giving him the electrolyte solution that you've been using, maybe you could give him some defrosted frozen peas by hand? (Do not defrost in the microwave--it causes pockets of burning hot.)
> 
> Unfortunately, without having checked the poops in a lab, we can't know if we're using the correct antibiotic for the presumed bacterial infection.


hmmm, so I,d keep up the anti biotics..I am hopefulthat these being potent ,broad spectrum antibiotics, the pigeon would benefit. I have got the peas. how often do u think should I feed him? I just gave him his breakfast of 12 corn grains, 5 saffron seeds and 5 mung beans followed by 5 ml of the prepared solution.I plan to do this every 3 hours .is that a proper feeding programme for a sick pigeon of this condition?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

zomg! poor baby! I wish I could give some advice, but the best I can do is hope for the best...get well soon beautiful!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> hmmm, so I,d keep up the anti biotics..I am hopefulthat these being potent ,broad spectrum antibiotics, the pigeon would benefit. I have got the peas. how often do u think should I feed him? I just gave him his breakfast of 12 corn grains, 5 saffron seeds and 5 mung beans followed by 5 ml of the prepared solution.I plan to do this every 3 hours .is that a proper feeding programme for a sick pigeon of this condition?


As I keep ringneck doves and smaller in the house, I will have to look up this information for you. 

I did find this on force feeding (which may be useful as a reference if things get too much worse.) http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/feedbaby/feedbaby.html

Depending what formula you used 


> The feeding can be from 70-100 kCal per day depending on the health status of the bird. You would want to feed a total of 100 kCal to a sick non-eating pigeon.
> Regular feeding formulas will contain 1.0-2.0 kCal per ml. Calorically dense formulas contain close to 2.0 kCal per ml.


I'm not sure how much seed this translates into.

Yeah, it sounds like your instincts are going right with the antibiotics.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

I'm going to lean towards letting him eat solids like you have been and you can feel his crop to see when it's empty and he needs more just like you would with a baby bird. 

If he starts going way downhill and handfeeding isn't working, switch him to Kaytee Exact or similar to make sure he gets enough food.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

OK, I think I found something more helpful:


> To work out how much food a pigeon needs, weigh the pigeon and the peas...feed the pigeon 1/20 (5%) of its weight in peas twice a day. For example, if a pigeon weighs 300 grams it would need 15 grams of peas and corn twice a day. If the pigeon is thin, or if it loses weight add a few more pieces at each feed.


http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/illnessesandinjuries.htm


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> OK, I think I found something more helpful:
> 
> 
> http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/illnessesandinjuries.htm


thats a close one,,,,hats off to your helping sense


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> thats a close one,,,,hats off to your helping sense


I hope that these amounts work out for you and your little buddy. He's such a gorgeous bird.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> I hope that these amounts work out for you and your little buddy. He's such a gorgeous bird.


Amen and thanks...may God sweeten ur mouth!!
any definite ideas on the water intake?


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

how much does he weigh? We can figure it out with a ratio. A 400gm bird will drink 45 mls a day according to this post:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/how-much-water-to-give-a-pigeon-not-drinking-or-eating-45708.html


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> how much does he weigh? We can figure it out with a ratio. A 400gm bird will drink 45 mls a day according to this post:
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/how-much-water-to-give-a-pigeon-not-drinking-or-eating-45708.html


he weighs 470 gms


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

i let him out of his cage for a while as it is bright sunny morning here,,,he seemed to be spinning going round and round for the 1st minute or so before stabilizing a bit....he wanted to get to the loft but couldnt walk straight...hey what the hell is this???is this PMV??? His neck isnt twisted as u see with PMV infected birds. I am trying to upload a video


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I would get this bird on antibiotics. A combination of Baytril (or triple sulfa) and metronidazole to cover your bases. Make sure he stays warm and hydrated.
Not sure what that thing is on his beak, could be canker or maybe pox. I'm not familiar with pox (never dealed with it), but canker can show up in other places.
Great teamwork you two


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Although I can't be sure, it looks to me like he has pox. As pox is a virus, it will need to run it's course and you will need to offer supportive care.Pox and canker do seem to go hand in hand and so treating for canker, would be a good thing to do. 
Do you have roaches or rodents that can get into the loft? If so, the pigeon may also have salmonella.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here are the pre-written instructions for hand feeding peas. As your pigeon is larger than the feral pigeon, you may need to feed more than the amount I suggested.

*You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas make the crop feel lumpy and squishy.
*


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> he weighs 470 gms


Ok, so then our ratio is:

400/45 = 470/w

400w = 470 * 45

w = 52.875

(w = water )


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> I would get this bird on antibiotics. A combination of Baytril (or triple sulfa) and metronidazole to cover your bases. Make sure he stays warm and hydrated.
> Not sure what that thing is on his beak, could be canker or maybe pox. I'm not familiar with pox (never dealed with it), but canker can show up in other places.
> Great teamwork you two


OP is currently giving doxymicine and trisym. Do you think these will work for this?

Also--glad to hear you think it could be just pox. I was really worried it might be cancer. (I've never had a bird with pox before.)


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

friends thanks a lot for the replies. this bird is certainly off balance. his neck is jittery and he seems to be staggering like an old man. when in some energy after a feed, he goes around in circles. can this be the early stage of PMV? I am sorry for the late reply. was busy cleaning and disinfecting the loft,,,as I suspect the virus may cause damage to others as well.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Charis said:


> Although I can't be sure, it looks to me like he has pox. As pox is a virus, it will need to run it's course and you will need to offer supportive care.Pox and canker do seem to go hand in hand and so treating for canker, would be a good thing to do.
> Do you have roaches or rodents that can get into the loft? If so, the pigeon may also have salmonella.


my loft is on the roof of a 4 story building and hence certainly roach and rodent free.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> I would get this bird on antibiotics. A combination of Baytril (or triple sulfa) and metronidazole to cover your bases. Make sure he stays warm and hydrated.
> Not sure what that thing is on his beak, could be canker or maybe pox. I'm not familiar with pox (never dealed with it), but canker can show up in other places.
> Great teamwork you two


baytril and metronidazole....should I discontinue the trisym and doxymicine and get him on the meds u specify? poor guy is loosing weight, as I could feel his chest bone getting sharp.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> friends thanks a lot for the replies. this bird is certainly off balance. his neck is jittery and he seems to be staggering like an old man. when in some energy after a feed, he goes around in circles. can this be the early stage of PMV? I am sorry for the late reply. was busy cleaning and disinfecting the loft,,,as I suspect the virus may cause damage to others as well.


Well, if it's PMV that's also a virus--so just like you would have with the pox, continue the supportive care. It may cause brain damage, but he can survive this. Keep a close eye on your other birds and wash your hands often.

Here's a good page on PMV (if that is the problem.) http://www.pigeon-aid.org.uk/pa/html/paramyxovirus__pmv_.php


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> baytril and metronidazole....should I discontinue the trisym and doxymicine and get him on the meds u specify? poor guy is loosing weight, as I could feel his chest bone getting sharp.


Maybe increase what you're feeding him then. Add 2 peas or so at each feeding and see if it helps.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

thanks libis for a very useful link on PMV. I think my bird is certainly infected as no other pigeon disease causes symptoms of staggering, and turning in circles. he is definitely erratic. cant even stand properly and his head has tremors,,,,though its not completely lopsided.
now somehow i have the worst pigeon disease here and I definitely need to update on meds. so please advise me.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

metronidazole for pmv. My arch nemesis it is. you probably know how to prepare it (sorry if i repeat anything, I havent read the entire thread.) if you dont, ill post.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> metronidazole for pmv. My arch nemesis it is. you probably know how to prepare it (sorry if i repeat anything, I havent read the entire thread.) if you dont, ill post.


Metronidazole is for canker. If it is PMV, and not sure that it is, as other things can cause neurological problems at times, there is nothing you can do to treat the actual PMV. Birds must be vaccinated for it _before _they get it. Some may treat with antibiotics in case of secondary infections, or with Metronidazole for canker, as illness can bring on an episode of canker.
All you can do is give support to the bird by keeping warm and hand feeding for the time while he cannot eat himself because of the illness.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Metronidazole is for canker. If it is PMV, and not sure that it is, as other things can cause neurological problems at times, there is nothing you can do to treat the actual PMV. Birds must be vaccinated for it _before _they get it. Some may treat with antibiotics in case of secondary infections, or with Metronidazole for canker, as illness can bring on an episode of canker.
> All you can do is give support to the bird by keeping warm and hand feeding for the time while he cannot eat himself because of the illness.


The green that was in his poops suggest secondary infection to me. Though--could that be pox related? Like maybe he got PMV and pox at the same time?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

While he may have PMV, many things can cause the symptoms you are describing ranging from different bacteria to dehydration. I am well aware though, that when one sees those symptoms, that is the first place one goes in their mind ...pm but it may not be that.
Roaches can get to a 4 story building and they can carry salmonella. 
Is this a new bird to your loft?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Libis said:


> The green that was in his *poops suggest secondary infection to me. * Though--could that be pox related? Like maybe he got PMV and pox at the same time?


I think so. It not uncommon for sick pigeons to have bacteria, canker, parasites and more, all at the same time. To make them well, it's like pealing away the layers. I had one a while back that had 4 different parasites. I'd treat one, only to have another reveal itself. It can be very frustrating.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

fluffmaster said:


> baytril and metronidazole....should I discontinue the trisym and doxymicine and get him on the meds u specify? poor guy is loosing weight, as I could feel his chest bone getting sharp.


I'm not familiar with those antibiotics, doxymicine or doxycycline? I'm familiar with doxycycline. I use baytril or triple sulfa (smz-tmp) because they can be used safely with metronidazole. Doxycycline can also be used with metronidazole. I would add metronidazole just because of that growth on the beak........might be pox, could be canker. Either way, it won't hurt him to give him metro, and it might help.
At this point, you really don't know 'what' this bird has, so it's a case of treating the symptoms....especially if it 'is' a virus. Toxins can also cause staggering and instability. So best right now is to give supportive care and treat symptoms. As Charis said, MANY things can cause those symptoms


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> I'm not familiar with those antibiotics, doxymicine or doxycycline? I'm familiar with doxycycline. I use baytril or triple sulfa (smz-tmp) because they can be used safely with metronidazole. Doxycycline can also be used with metronidazole. I would add metronidazole just because of that growth on the beak........might be pox, could be canker. Either way, it won't hurt him to give him metro, and it might help.
> At this point, you really don't know 'what' this bird has, so it's a case of treating the symptoms....especially if it 'is' a virus. Toxins can also cause staggering and instability. So best right now is to give supportive care and treat symptoms. As Charis said, MANY things can cause those symptoms


thanx freebird
the bird,s poops this morning have certainly improved,,they are satisfactorily solidified with half white and half green look,,,
Basing on the updated advice, I am going to put him on metronidazole and baytril from now on.
I did give him extra rations or adequate to be precise and have planned three intakes of rehydration water 15 ml each time in the day.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Charis said:


> I think so. It not uncommon for sick pigeons to have bacteria, canker, parasites and more, all at the same time. To make them well, it's like pealing away the layers. I had one a while back that had 4 different parasites. I'd treat one, only to have another reveal itself. It can be very frustrating.


thanx charis,,,I guess I am properly advised, there are no cockroaches,,,thats for certain...the entire loft and its surroundings had been liberally powdered with insect killer and for the past month or so,,,I cant see a single ant around here.yes the bird was bought from a local market about a fortnight back and that was a mistake I dont intend repeating


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> The green that was in his poops suggest secondary infection to me. Though--could that be pox related? Like maybe he got PMV and pox at the same time?


Libis buddy
I think the characteristic of PMV is the loose green droppings u refer to,,,and is that the case with pox too?and tell em if the improvement in poops is really an improvement,,and should it be coming so soon?


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

November-X-Scourge said:


> metronidazole for pmv. My arch nemesis it is. you probably know how to prepare it (sorry if i repeat anything, I havent read the entire thread.) if you dont, ill post.


many thanx november
It,d be v useful if u do post the recipe, as I am not aware of it yet


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> Libis buddy
> I think the characteristic of PMV is the loose green droppings u refer to,,,and is that the case with pox too?


The PMV makes their poop runny, but the green that was there initially makes me think that there is also an unknown bacterial infection. A lot of times when a bird is weakened by virus, they also get additional diseases.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> The PMV makes their poop runny, but the green that was there initially makes me think that there is also an unknown bacterial infection. A lot of times when a bird is weakened by virus, they also get additional diseases.


the poops this morning were relatively stable as described earlier,,,now do you think that happens so fast with PMV or for that matter any other infection?


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

one thing is for sure libis ,,my friend 
I,d have given up on him had it not been for your constant support...I feel as if I am almost a vet and can handle ailments if God forbid they arise in future. earlier on I lost 2 birds a month or so because I just didnt seem to know or realize that they may be saved


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Get a shot-glass and place 2 1/2 scoops of the Metroplex (Metronidazole) into into it, then to this add 5mL of pancake syrup, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir again and you will have a 5% (50mg/mL) suspension to dose with. The 5mL is equal to 1 cooking teaspoon (it must be a cooking teaspoon not a common flatware spoon, or use the 1cc syringe 5 times, to the 1cc mark to measure the syrup). Give her 0.30cc (15mg, this is the third line one a 1cc syringe, for reference this will be about 6 drops) and then same every 12 hours for the next 7 days. Stir very well each time you draw a dose and refrigerate between use.

Originally by Dobato! (miss her  )

Well, it appears that I've been totally confused. But I've posted it anyway, you can copy and paste it into a doc, and maybe any secondary problems will need this. anyway, its a handy recipe to have for sure!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> the poops this morning were relatively stable as described earlier,,,now do you think that happens so fast with PMV or for that matter any other infection?


I would still finish 5-7 days of antibiotics just to be sure we've kicked the butt of any secondary infection. 

How is he acting? I've read that it can take 6 weeks of support care for them to get back to being ok to put in the loft again.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Get a shot-glass and place 2 1/2 scoops of the Metroplex (Metronidazole) into into it, then to this add 5mL of pancake syrup, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir again and you will have a 5% (50mg/mL) suspension to dose with. The 5mL is equal to 1 cooking teaspoon (it must be a cooking teaspoon not a common flatware spoon, or use the 1cc syringe 5 times, to the 1cc mark to measure the syrup). Give her 0.30cc (15mg, this is the third line one a 1cc syringe, for reference this will be about 6 drops) and then same every 12 hours for the next 7 days. Stir very well each time you draw a dose and refrigerate between use.
> 
> Originally by Dobato! (miss her  )
> 
> Well, it appears that I've been totally confused. But I've posted it anyway, you can copy and paste it into a doc, and maybe any secondary problems will need this. anyway, its a handy recipe to have for sure!


Do you know exactly what strength the med is when you start out? Because if she finds a different strength--we'll have to figure out how to alter the recipe a bit.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

poops today,,,,i,d say much better isnt it?


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

he was fed peas and boiled corn by my son, as i was awy at office, i,d say he seems better today,,,, i took him out of his cage and he walked relatively confident and jumped back in


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Poops look much better, but I would still finish the 5-7 days of antibiotic to be sure. The rest will probably be supportive care to get rid of the virus.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Those look like E-Coli droppings to me. Continue antibiotics and metronidazole will also help. Metronidazole not only takes care of canker, it will firm up the poops so he doesn't loose fluids. Also has antibacterial properties as well as antiprotozoal. I would do both. Glad he's steadier, sounds like the antibiotics are kicking in


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

thanks libis,,,you are early haan,,,today i happen to talk to a senior and experienced pigeon fancier who advised me with some very specific homeopathic medicines. one of them is "pigeon care 1" or PC 1. ACCORDING TO HIM these medicines are the result of extensive research and are much more effective than the ordinary medicines. these are both preventive and curative in nature.PC1 is a PMV specific medicine geared towards treatment of the damaged digestive and neurological and kidney function. its claimed to be a top rate anti toxin. he also advised me to give a tablet "neurobion" daily as that would offset the damage resulting in jitters and unsteadiness.
he is right now viewing my thread and i hope him to give me further advise on that tumor or ulcer or pox whatever it is. meanwhile I am giving him adequate food and salt replenishing water.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> Those look like E-Coli droppings to me. Continue antibiotics and metronidazole will also help. Metronidazole not only takes care of canker, it will firm up the poops so he doesn't loose fluids. Also has antibacterial properties as well as antiprotozoal. I would do both. Glad he's steadier, sounds like the antibiotics are kicking in


thanx freebird
I was just advised a medicine each ml of which contains norfloxacin,sulfamethoxypyridazine,trimethoprim,phenylbutazone,bromhexine etc and is effective against e-coli,coryza , mycoplasmaosis and misc respiratory infections


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

the new set of meds from today. the centre bottle is not homeopathic. you can see its composition too.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Mr.Rao , the senior pigeon fancier who advised me diagnoses mild pox for the beak problem. for the droppings he diagnosed parathyphoid caused by salmonilla bacteria. according to him a bird suffering from paratyphoid has green watery poops which stick to the vent.it has symptoms similar to that of PMV like tremors,nervous stroken and spinning. there is sharp weight loss and swelling of the joints often accompanied by partial paralysis. Pigeon clinic has prepared a homeopathic medicine PC 14, specifically for this disorder . it acts fast restoring appetite and health of the affected bird. 
Right now this is not available in my city and he has promided to get it delivered by courier tomorrow. in the meanwhile he recommends vety STP,a medicine which contains norfloxacin,sulfamethoxypyridazine,trimethoprim,ph enylbutazone,bromhexine etc and is effective against the loose droppings caused by e-coli,coryza , mycoplasmaosis and misc respiratory infections.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

btw I dont totally agree with him


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

fluffmaster said:


> Mr.Rao , the senior pigeon fancier who advised me diagnoses mild pox for the beak problem. for the droppings he diagnosed parathyphoid caused by salmonilla bacteria. according to him a bird suffering from paratyphoid has green watery poops which stick to the vent.it has symptoms similar to that of PMV like tremors,nervous stroken and spinning. there is sharp weight loss and swelling of the joints often accompanied by partial paralysis. Pigeon clinic has prepared a homeopathic medicine PC 14, specifically for this disorder . it acts fast restoring appetite and health of the affected bird.
> Right now this is not available in my city and he has promided to get it delivered by courier tomorrow. in the meanwhile he recommends* vety STP,a medicine which contains norfloxacin,sulfamethoxypyridazine,trimethoprim,ph enylbutazone,bromhexine etc and is effective against the loose droppings caused by e-coli,coryza , mycoplasmaosis and misc respiratory infections*.


This is very similar to the smz-tmp that I use. And yes, All those symptoms go with salmonella, including swollen joints........which you didn't mention  That's almost a dead giveaway........limping.
The reason I said E-coli is because the poops look like yellow mucous in the photo's, not green, but maybe just the camera (its hard to get the true color).
So it sounds like your getting a handle on this and he's improving?


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

thanks freedbird

the poop color i guess is more because of the orange colored boiled corn that he was fed yesterday. thats what Dr.Rao also opined. are his joints swollen? how do I know that. his dizzy , unbalanced gait may or may not be limping.I really doubt if he has partial paralysis.
and what is similar to smz-tmp that you use? kindly explain.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Last night i fed him very late well past midnight when I was going to sleep. I got this guy in a coat sleeve with his head out. thinking that he was improving I fed him a good deal of boiled corn and peas giving him at least 10 ml of water before and after the feed. then in the morning I saw that he had vomited every thing as it was lying on the floor, just as fresh as I had fed it. I think this must be over feeding so I have decided to go slow. he other wise looks fine and improving.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> Last night i fed him very late well past midnight when I was going to sleep. I got this guy in a coat sleeve with his head out. thinking that he was improving I fed him a good deal of boiled corn and peas giving him at least 10 ml of water before and after the feed. then in the morning I saw that he had vomited every thing as it was lying on the floor, just as fresh as I had fed it. I think this must be over feeding so I have decided to go slow. he other wise looks fine and improving.


Glad to hear he looks to be improving! I hope with smaller more frequent meals that will help stop the problems you saw this morning.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

fluffmaster said:


> thanks freedbird
> 
> the poop color i guess is more because of the orange colored boiled corn that he was fed yesterday. thats what Dr.Rao also opined. are his joints swollen? how do I know that. his dizzy , unbalanced gait may or may not be limping.I really doubt if he has partial paralysis.
> and what is similar to smz-tmp that you use? kindly explain.


Smz/tmp contains sulfamethoxypyridazine,trimethoprim. It doesn't have the other ingredients.
It's easier to tell if the joints are swollen if they are limping on one leg because you can compare the legs and see that one is fatter than the other. With both legs it would be more difficult because you have nothing to compare them to if you don't know what to look for. The joints will be thicker, stiff and warm. Making it difficult for them to walk or keep their balance.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

fluffmaster said:


> Last night i fed him very late well past midnight when I was going to sleep. I got this guy in a coat sleeve with his head out. thinking that he was improving I fed him a good deal of boiled corn and peas giving him at least 10 ml of water before and after the feed. then in the morning I saw that he had vomited every thing as it was lying on the floor, just as fresh as I had fed it. I think this must be over feeding so I have decided to go slow. he other wise looks fine and improving.



Only feed until his crop feels squishy, and not packed. Then don't feed again until the crop has emptied. The defrosted peas are also easier to digest than the corn. Maybe he would do better with the peas.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

I found this very useful and informative article about the disease of my pigeon and reproducing it as I find detailed information that I didnt find earlier.

Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid, Leg Paralysis, Wing Paralysis ) is a bacterial disease. It has different symptoms depending on what organs are affected. It causes high mortality in the very young pigeons, birds that survive the infection frequently become carriers as they harbor the pathogen in their bodies and excrete them without showing any visible symptoms of the disease. Carriers endanger the entire flock, especially the young birds.

The salmonellae bacteria settles in the intestine, they posses one flagella which enables movement in a moist environment. The pathogens are excreted via the droppings, crop milk, saliva and with infected eggs. Salmonellae can enter the pigeons body through contaminated feed or drinking water, also through billing or feeding of the squabs. The pathogen can even enter the pigeon by breathing dust containing it.

The disease is imported into the loft by the introducing of a new infected pigeon to the flock, either by purchasing an infective bird or an infected common pigeon that has strayed into the loft.

There are four different forms of the disease:

intestinal Form: This form causes diarrhea with slimy/aqueous brownish to greenish droppings, the droppings will be surrounded by fluid and may contain pulpy undigested feed. The intestines are inflamed, feed cannot be broken down for its nutrients. Since the pigeon can no longer absorb the nutrients its starts using its blood sugar, when that is depleted, it uses its fat reserves and then finally its protein i.e. muscle tissue. Soon the pigeon is emaciated (starving) and the dies.

Articular Form: Salmonellae can quickly multiply in the digested feed. Through damaged intestinal walls they pass easily into the blood stream. From there the blood will carry the disease throughout the whole body. The pathogens may settle in the pigeons joints where they cause painful inflammation. The pigeons body reacts by the increased formation of fluid to these joints, therefore the swelling. The inflammation manifests itself by the pigeon letting a wing droop or holding its leg up to ease the pressure put upon the joints and alleviate the pain.

Organ Involvement: The disease can also multiply in the different organs of the pigeon especially the liver, kidneys, spleen, heart and pancreas. Tumor like yellowish gray nodes are formed. The changes in the organs are not characterized by any typical external symptoms except listlessness, difficulty in breathing and rapidly progressing debility.

* Nervous Disorder: Salmonellae can enter the brain and the bone marrow and cause inflammation there. As a result of the inflammation there is increased pressure exerted on the nerve cells causing an impaired sense of balance and finally paralysis. *

The medication of choice is: Baytril 10% (also good for e-coli and ornithosis): Bacterial injection and drug sensitivity is the first choice in determining which drug your pigeon should be treated with, in lieu of that, Baytril is the drug of choice because it works in most cases against bacterial infections. Baytril can be purchased in tablets for individual birds or in liquid form for flock treatment.

Tablets: 1 tablet for 14 days for an individual bird

Liquid: 4cc per gallon for 10 days for flock treatment.

Liquid: 3 or 4 drops down the birds throat for 14 days. (individual treatment). 

Most of all, isolate any new pigeons you acquire and observe them for at least 30 days before you introduce them into the loft. And make your loft intruder proof for stray common pigeons and for rodents. Rats and mice also carry paratyphoid and will soil the grain that your pigeons eat.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Only feed until his crop feels squishy, and not packed. Then don't feed again until the crop has emptied. The defrosted peas are also easier to digest than the corn. Maybe he would do better with the peas.


Thanks Jay. 
I get to see my pigeon in the evening when its dark and that is when he just sits puffed up. Although his poop has improved much, his general condition doesnt seem changing. He is absent, with his head down and snoozing most of the time , at least in the evening, when I have him in my room, with the heater on and the room temperature at about 26 centi.My son yesterday reported that he did peck at the grains yesterday. that was encouraging. It seems it might take him another week or 10 days, before he gets back to his senses and starts taking interest in his life and surroundings.I am continuing the medication and hand feeding.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

duplicate deleted


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

fluffmaster said:


> I found this very useful and informative article about the disease of my pigeon and reproducing it as I find detailed information that I didnt find earlier.
> 
> Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid, Leg Paralysis, Wing Paralysis ) is a bacterial disease. It has different symptoms depending on what organs are affected. It causes high mortality in the very young pigeons, birds that survive the infection frequently become carriers as they harbor the pathogen in their bodies and excrete them without showing any visible symptoms of the disease. Carriers endanger the entire flock, especially the young birds.
> 
> ...




Your article left out that rodents carry salmonella, and even insects, such as roaches. If they get into a loft, or leave droppings where the birds can pick them up, the birds pick up the disease that way also.

As far as the dosing, any of those doses would depend on the strength of the med., and what kind of med you are talking about. Often it would be just a partial pill. Like I said, it depends on what you are using. There are other meds people use if they don't have the Baytril.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

his condition and poops today...not particularly relieving, the 2nd picture shows water spilling on his face during feeding


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Your article left out that rodents carry salmonella, and even insects, such as roaches. If they get into a loft, or leave droppings where the birds can pick them up, the birds pick up the disease that way also.
> 
> As far as the dosing, any of those doses would depend on the strength of the med., and what kind of med you are talking about. Often it would be just a partial pill. Like I said, it depends on what you are using. There are other meds people use if they don't have the Baytril.


thats not my article jay. its just that it has more information than the ones I saw prior to hitting this one, specially the 4 types of paratyphoid elaborated


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

overall i am not v disappointed as he seems to have pulled along for almost a week since I discovered his ailment,,,I am certain that God willing, he,d be back in action somewhere next week


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for sharing the article. Was just adding the other info to it.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The poops, to me, look OK. finish the meds. Sometimes the meds cause the birds to vomit (at least it happens in parrots)
hmmmmm...did you bring this bird to a vet? curious...


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

pirab buk said:


> The poops, to me, look OK. finish the meds. Sometimes the meds cause the birds to vomit (at least it happens in parrots)
> hmmmmm...did you bring this bird to a vet? curious...


thanx pirab. i,d certainly like to be convinced a little more on discontinuing treatment. i am being advised bya senior pigeon fancier of the country who is highly regarded for his knowledge of pigeon ailments and their treatment


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would put something more abosorbant in his cage to keep him from sloshing in his own feces.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. The cardboard can be covered with a couple layers of newspaper, then paper towels. The Paper towels absorb really well, and you can change them out every day. When the newspapers underneath get damp, then you can also change them. It works well, and as was mentioned, it would keep him cleaner. The cardboard doesn't absorb very well, and it's harder to clean.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

From those pictures, he looks worse to me. What exactly is he getting for meds right now? I still would make sure metronidazole is one of them. He looks 'hunched' in the lower body. I have to get ready for work, so I can't follow the threads during the day  Do you have him on heat?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

As Waynette has already asked, what meds are you giving him, and how much? I agree that Metronidazole should be one of them. He looks like he's in pain.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> As Waynette has already asked, what meds are you giving him, and how much? I agree that Metronidazole should be one of them. He looks like he's in pain.


i couldnt give him any meds yesterday. today i gave him vetty stp,vety STP,a medicine which contains norfloxacin,sulfamethoxypyridazine,trimethoprim,phenylbutazone,bromhexine etc and is effective against the loose droppings caused by e-coli,coryza , mycoplasmaosis and misc respiratory infections.he vomited soft moistened yellow grams yesterday and i have reduced his feed


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

the condition this morning


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

I just fed him a mix of red milo and saffron seeds a total of about 30 grains. the problem is that he vomits if I give him more than that. I canfeed him only twice a day. the other two feedings are done by my son who is 12 and still a child, so i dont really know if he does it properly.
I think I must put him on rehydration once again as the poops are v watery and he seems to be loosing fluids once again. I had thought the poor chap would feel hungry and start by his own but seems I have to wait more


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> From those pictures, he looks worse to me. What exactly is he getting for meds right now? I still would make sure metronidazole is one of them. He looks 'hunched' in the lower body. I have to get ready for work, so I can't follow the threads during the day  Do you have him on heat?


thanks free bird. he is warm, in a room with heater on, if u mean that by heat. he was much better on the combination og trisym and doxycycline that I fed him on the 1st two days. do u think I revert to those?


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> thanks free bird. he is warm, in a room with heater on, if u mean that by heat. he was much better on the combination og trisym and doxycycline that I fed him on the 1st two days. do u think I revert to those?


The way he's acting, it might be best to get a heating pad under the cage or along the side of it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It works well to put a heating pad in the cage, set on LOW, with a towel over it. The he would be on the towel. When they're sick, they really can't regulate their body heat.
You could feed him defrosted peas that are warmed up under warm running water. Warm, not hot. They would be much easier for him to digest. You would give him 40 to 50 maybe three times a day. Don't feed until his crop has emptied from the last feed.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> It works well to put a heating pad in the cage, set on LOW, with a towel over it. The he would be on the towel. When they're sick, they really can't regulate their body heat.
> You could feed him defrosted peas that are warmed up under warm running water. Warm, not hot. They would be much easier for him to digest. You would give him 40 to 50 maybe three times a day. Don't feed until his crop has emptied from the last feed.


I dont have a heating pad available right away. Rest assured that he is not cold, as the room with the heater on has a temperature definitely around 30 centi


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

fluffmaster said:


> thanks free bird. he is warm, in a room with heater on, if u mean that by heat. he was much better on the* combination og trisym and doxycycline that I fed him on the 1st two days*. do u think I revert to those?


He is definitely looking worse from your most recent pictures. If you feel he responded better with your 1st meds, then switch him. You should have noticed an improvement by now. BUT, you really need to get some metronidazole into him AND put him ON heat, and get him rehydrated so he can fight this. (even when WE are sick, we get chilled on hot days) He needs all his strength to fight this....not to waste his strength on trying to keep warm. Their normal body temperature is around 106-108.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

believe me he is warm,,,but his condition worsens, his head is now most of the time now like this and he keeps circling every now and then as he is in some energy,,,i,ve got that metro thing just now,,,and need advice on precise dosage after giving him 5 drops in 5 cc,,,a few moments back.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

the room temperature is certainly around 30,,,although i dont have a thermometer right now, i,ll get it tomorrow to assure u


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

I just poured him water and with a neck going awry in all directions,,,chchchch,,,poor chap he took about a dozen mis directions before finally manging to put his beak in the water and drank deep...has he pmv as well as paratyphoid????this pigeon is really a hospital!!!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> the room temperature is certainly around 30,,,although i dont have a thermometer right now, i,ll get it tomorrow to assure u


Hi fluffmaster, his stance certainly looks like PMV symptoms so he is going to need to be hand fed & watered as they have great difficulty controling their movements to enable them to do this themselves. Normally PMV itself is not fatal, however while it is going on it leaves the bird in such a poor state that other ailments can take hold & rapidly cause it to go downhill.
Please try & get a heating pad (or even a bottle of hot water wrapped in a towel) to give it direct supplimentary heat.
I'm not sure, but I dont think that type of heater is suibtable for birds, I'm sure ive read somewhere that the fumes given off by calor gas heaters can be fatal to birds. (especially in such a confined space)
Also, do not leave any water in the cage for it if itis unnatended, In its current condition it could easily fall into it & drown.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I would give him 50mg of metronidazole (1.25 mls of your suspension) once a day. With that I would also give baytril or triple sulfa (the med you were using first). He also needs to be ON heat (heating pad set on low). That heater is NOT good to be near him. And as Quazar says, you will have to hand feed and water him.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> I would give him 50mg of metronidazole (1.25 mls of your suspension) once a day. With that I would also give baytril or triple sulfa (the med you were using first). He also needs to be ON heat (heating pad set on low). That heater is NOT good to be near him. And as Quazar says, you will have to hand feed and water him.


the meds will be started today. the heating pad will also be arranged.i,ll keep feeding him by hand


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Let us know how it goes.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Thanks for the update. Let us know how it goes.


can I place heated water bottles under him, covered with a towel. the heating pad here costs around 40 USD, I just was wondering if the 2 or 3 bottles could be an economic alternative.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

you can use bottles, but you will need to make sure they are kept at a good temp and not allowed to go cold, which means changing them every couple of hours as they will get too cool very quickly.
The bird needs to be on constant heat to allow it to use its full resources to help fight its problems. As soon as the heat diminishes, the bird uses more than half its energy trying to stay warm & the illness takes over again very quickly.
A pad would be much better as it is always on & stays constant.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

although not as desirable as a heating pad, these water bottles have been filled with boiling hot water, and then placed underneath a towel....i felt on the towel surface which was quite coosy and warm.the raised bottle has given him nice perching too


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)




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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Those will work, But you just have to make sure they don't cool off. They have to be changed every couple hours. That's why I like a heating pad.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

that looks like v nice poops,,,,isnt it


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

happy new year to all, including my little sick buddy,,the new year has sure been a blessed one for him


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

amazing poops


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

They look ALOT better! Are you still giving meds? Hows the head twisting?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The droppings are looking a lot better.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> They look ALOT better! Are you still giving meds? Hows the head twisting?


yes I am still giving meds,,,more of the homeopathic though...the bird has certainly gained some strength and appetite, as he kept pecking grains through out the day though he couldnt eat any because of the nervous misalignment...he seems to be in some strength today and also produces the female wooing sound,,what is it called?


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

his droppings are perfect since and the mild pox on his beak has also subsided. he however continues to suffer from the nervous damage not yet able to eat or drink by himself. 

any ideas on how long might it be, before that? he has been under hand feeding now for a 25 days almost.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you put seed in a small crock but deep, can he pick any up? Sometimes a deep dish will help him to be able to get the seed.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

the bird after a very good care for the disease,best medicines, hand feeding ,hot temperature provision and all could not recover from the nervous damage even after 1.5 month. I discussed the matter with some expert fanciers , and they advised culling. So the bird was culled yesterday. It was very healthy with a lot of fat in the body and lot of blood gushing from the slaughter. 
I must advise here as a point that birds having nervous damage category of paratyphoid cant be cured and hence culling is the best option .


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> the bird after a very good care for the disease,best medicines, hand feeding ,hot temperature provision and all could not recover from the nervous damage even after 1.5 month. *I discussed the matter with some expert fanciers *, and they advised culling. So the bird was culled yesterday. *It was very healthy* with a lot of fat in the body and lot of blood gushing from the slaughter.
> *I must advise here as a point that birds having nervous damage category of paratyphoid cant be cured and hence culling is the best option *.


Since you obviously dont listen to CORRECT advice, it is NOT welcome to post advice (especially with detail) which is incorrect and also contrary to the forum conduct
This is a pigeon friendly website and there was absolutely NO need for this bird to be handled in this way. 
Even IF the bird HAD to be PTS (WHICH IT DID NOT), It should have been done humanely by a vet.
As you said, It was healthy, so why do this ?
Your so called "Expert" fanciers are giving advice based on THEIR perception of the bird, and what THEY expect either for show or race. Yes, the bird would probably not come up to THEIR expectation, but it would have survived, and with plenty of care & attention, would more than likeley lived longer than some of those "Experts" birds.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Quazar said:


> Since you obviously dont listen to CORRECT advice, it is NOT welcome to post advice (especially with detail) which is incorrect and also contrary to the forum conduct
> This is a pigeon friendly website and there was absolutely NO need for this bird to be handled in this way.
> Even IF the bird HAD to be PTS (WHICH IT DID NOT), It should have been done humanely by a vet.
> As you said, It was healthy, so why do this ?
> Your so called "Expert" fanciers are giving advice based on THEIR perception of the bird, and what THEY expect either for show or race. Yes, the bird would probably not come up to THEIR expectation, but it would have survived, and with plenty of care & attention, would more than likeley lived longer than some of those "Experts" birds.


I feel sorry for the bird, but certainly not sorry for you ,who is straight up foolish without listening or understanding and adamant on prolonging the misery of a creature who has no chance of eating by himself for the rest of his life. 
If every member of this forum wants to tube feed sick birds for the rest of their life,and enjoy them having dirty poop covered face, and scare them mad each time they try to handle them,maybe I am not fit to be a member as you suggest. But if anyone here thinks that a bird may not be able to eat again and leaving him with other birds would sure endanger all of them, then my action may be pardoned, if not praised.

and what do u mean by did not listen to correct advice? pls explain.

I just wish you read a little well,,,the bird was healthy means he recovered from the problem with which diagnosed at this forum, but the nervous damage caused by the consequence of that was not to improve.I would most certainly appreciate u showing me one bird having nervous damage caused by paratyphid and then rejoining the camp, even just to eat by himself and I would welcome all ur curse and imprecation. 
But unfortunately that is not going to happen....and this is a very sad reality unless someone discovers a cure for the nervous damage, caused by paratyphoid.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> I feel sorry for the bird, but certainly not sorry for you ,who is straight up foolish without listening or understanding and adamant on prolonging the misery of a creature who has no chance of eating by himself for the rest of his life.
> If every member of this forum wants to tube feed sick birds for the rest of their life,and enjoy them having dirty poop covered face, and scare them mad each time they try to handle them,maybe I am not fit to be a member as you suggest. But if anyone here thinks that a bird may not be able to eat again and leaving him with other birds would sure endanger all of them, then my action may be pardoned, if not praised.
> 
> and what do u mean by did not listen to correct advice? pls explain.
> ...


I can read perfectly well, you butchered the bird rather than care for it or even try to find it a better home !!!
Firstly,you mention paratyphoid, thought the bird had PMV ???. No matter, Paratyphoid is normally easier to treat but the Nervous situation can be a lingouring effect but even so it is NO reason to euthanise.
Thirdly, to put it in plain english, you have obviously taken advice from people who do not care about the bird in general, more of what it is worth to them.
The bird would not have to nesessarily have been tube fed, just hand fed and well cared for.
Once the bird has shed the PMV virus it will not pass it on to ohter birds even though it may still have nervous actions.
Your action will never be praised, you took the easy way out FOR YOU.
Birds that recover from PMV sometimes continue to have nervous symptoms for a long time afterwards, and even when it does get better, any stress can bring it on again, so they should NOT be released, but that is NOT to say they cannot have a good life in captivity, as quite a few members on here will vouch for, as some have several birds in this same predicament.
Also, as far as pox goes, once a bird has recovered from it, it is then immune to further outbreaks.
But good for you, youve taken advice & acted on it, without learning the FULL facts.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I know the details might have been a bit graphic, but it sounds like you made an effort with this bird. It is a shame it was not able to start eating on its own again. I am dealing with lingering nervous effects of that form of Paratyphoid on two birds right now so I have been reading EVERYTHING I can and talking to people in person and posting on sites like these. In my case the two seem to be getting better with medication and care, but I lost one initially and my two in question were very bad not so bad that they could not eat so it is different. Although there are folks that take the lives of their birds too casually, this person put in an effort and made the very personal decision that the bird was suffering too much and did not have quality of life.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Quazar said:


> I can read perfectly well, you butchered the bird rather than care for it or even try to find it a better home !!!
> Firstly,you mention paratyphoid, thought the bird had PMV ???. No matter, Paratyphoid is normally easier to treat but the Nervous situation can be a lingouring effect but even so it is NO reason to euthanise.
> Thirdly, to put it in plain english, you have obviously taken advice from people who do not care about the bird in general, more of what it is worth to them.
> The bird would not have to nesessarily have been tube fed, just hand fed and well cared for.
> ...


God have mercy on you along with 4 other pigeons of my loft , who have left eating. and are fluffed up exactly like the late bird was on 23 of dec last.why because thats what many sensible and caring fools assured me that the bird has stopped shedding infection by now, (after a month). the weather here has been very pleasant since 20 jan and the sun is hot enough , so I thought it might be a good idea to have him in the company of others, in the sunny loft, where he might learn to eat or drink.His face here in my room used to be black with dirt as he just could not keep his head up. this pigeon would at times take good about 30 to 40 seconds to raise his head from a slumber.After putting him back in the loft, I was glad as two males used to chase him all the time and I was happy as i thought the exercise would do him v well.

and u have the wisdom to declare from where ever u are that this bird had PMV and not paratyphoid.Majestic....

and I appreciate your arrogance in persisting that he could eat by his own. so at best all this time I was trying to convince the world that this bird could not eat.... for what??? Imagine!!!

I am tired of telling u,,,this bird could not even put his neck in a feeding tray. All day he would sit in a corner, with a neck twisted like a coil, tail pointing straight upwards. He was a picture of pity...dark, dirt smeared face for always contacting the ground, blank lost eyes, no sense of direction. when chased, the poor creature would topple and stumble, as if throat half slit.I had trouble keeping the other males mating with him , I dont know why they were adamant like u in sodomising him.

the pox was never an issue..the small scaly thing had long subsided ,,,it was his neck,,,which kept growing worse. , despite my giving him a capsule of cod liver oil, grinded almonds, cock health pills and what not daily.this bird a month ago was so under nourished, his chest bone seemed a razor.it was the food and all I put with my hands into him, which gave him all the weight he had. I am a government servant with an important task at hand all the time. since he got sick, I have taken at least 3 extra days off, in addition to getting late for office many a times.

and now to speak of 4 of my very beautiful birds....If u want I can send them to u...just give me ur address or collect them from me.

any one out there who wants to take charge of the 4 birds???please contact me. I am serious.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> God have mercy on you along with 4 other pigeons of my loft , who have left eating. and are fluffed up exactly like the late bird was on 23 of dec last.why because thats what many sensible and caring fools assured me that the bird has stopped shedding infection by now, (after a month). the weather here has been very pleasant since 20 jan and the sun is hot enough , *so I thought it might be a good idea to have him in the company of others, in the sunny loft, where he might learn to eat or drink.His face here in my room used to be black with dirt as he just could not keep his head up. this pigeon would at times take good about 30 to 40 seconds to raise his head from a slumber.After putting him back in the loft, I was glad as two males used to chase him all the time and I was happy as i thought the exercise would do him v well.*
> and u have the wisdom to declare from where ever u are that this bird had PMV and not paratyphoid.Majestic....
> 
> and I appreciate your arrogance in persisting that he could eat by his own. so at best all this time I was trying to convince the world that this bird could not eat.... for what??? Imagine!!!
> ...



HOLY CRAP ! Any respect for you that I may have had has now gone totally out the window.
Yes. one can initially make the mistake of putting a new bird in with others without quarantine first, but to put a sick bird BACK into the loft when it is obviously still unwell is totally and utterly irresponsible, whether it has shed the virus or not. You note it was still unwell, yet you put it back to be picked on by others (who incidentally would more than likely have got the virus off him from first time around, and possibly pass it back)
Your logic defies logic, - if you had a broken leg would you stand in the middle of a railway track so you could exercise by running away from the train ???? - I think not.
The fact that this bird could hardly stand is more reason that it should have been isolated & kept insde, in a small cage using a towel donut to help support it. This would also help it to avoid gettng poop all over its feathers & face.
Ive no doubt that you probably care for your birds the best you can, but obviously you do not have enough time, knowledge or experiance to do that efficiently.
People here tried to help, but you were so adamant in the first instance about "heating" that it took 2 days till you eventually put it on a (substitute) heating pad.
My main anger is that the bird was "culled" in what sounds a totally inhumane way when it definately was NOT nessessary.
I do hope someone takes you up on your statement, so that the birds will have a decent chance of survival while you may be able to take time to find out more about keeping pigeons responsably along with ailments & treatments that do work, not from so called "experts" but from those that care about birds and have had previous onhand experiance.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Fluffmaster-
For my small flock Baytril seemed to do the trick on the paratyphoid. I kept them on it for 14 full days and afterwords started probiotics. I had one, like you, that was too far gone. However, the Baytril worked on the remaining. two have/had neurological problems....one when eating and the other stargazing. The first of these still stargazes pretty often but "snaps out of it" quicker and is more lively than before. The other is much better and the 3 remaining birds that never progressed to the neurological symptoms are 100% again. This is about a month after treatment. This may help your remaining flock if you can get a hold of it.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Quazar said:


> HOLY CRAP ! Any respect for you that I may have had has now gone totally out the window.
> Yes. one can initially make the mistake of putting a new bird in with others without quarantine first, but to put a sick bird BACK into the loft when it is obviously still unwell is totally and utterly irresponsible, whether it has shed the virus or not. You note it was still unwell, yet you put it back to be picked on by others (who incidentally would more than likely have got the virus off him from first time around, and possibly pass it back)
> Your logic defies logic, - if you had a broken leg would you stand in the middle of a railway track so you could exercise by running away from the train ???? - I think not.
> The fact that this bird could hardly stand is more reason that it should have been isolated & kept insde, in a small cage using a towel donut to help support it. This would also help it to avoid gettng poop all over its feathers & face.
> ...


I thank u for having respect for me and dont know how I will regain it in your eyes.
u have the liberty of opinion and I respect that scottish freedom since I watched brave heart. I thank my luck, that its only u and not many like u. If their are more, I might redeem some of the lost respect by being disqualified to be a member here.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Woodnative said:


> Fluffmaster-
> For my small flock Baytril seemed to do the trick on the paratyphoid. I kept them on it for 14 full days and afterwords started probiotics. I had one, like you, that was too far gone. However, the Baytril worked on the remaining. two have/had neurological problems....one when eating and the other stargazing. The first of these still stargazes pretty often but "snaps out of it" quicker and is more lively than before. The other is much better and the 3 remaining birds that never progressed to the neurological symptoms are 100% again. This is about a month after treatment. This may help your remaining flock if you can get a hold of it.


many thanks woody. I have already started off with potent antibiotics. I have the 4 birds isolated, even from each other in 4 different cages. I will try to hand feed as much as I can. The rest of the flock is on veti stp and trisym. this was advised by a good and qualified vet, who happens to be a pigeon fancier as well. the other birds are happy and healthy. I do hope they stay so.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well considering that you would be uncaring enough to put the poor defenseless bird in with your others, to be chased and picked on, then I really don't feel sorry for you that your other birds got sick. The poor thing is better off without you. I feel sorry for your other birds though, and they would be better off without you too.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Well considering that you would be uncaring enough to put the poor defenseless bird in with your others, to be chased and picked on, then I really don't feel sorry for you that your other birds got sick. The poor thing is better off without you. I feel sorry for your other birds though, and they would be better off without you too.


It was a mistake, which I dont intend repeating...my birds are here , they are being cared for, I am not the best guardian ...if u think I am the worst ,,maybe I am still a little better than that. As much as u instigate me to give up on the sick birds, infact all my birds, I wont. I dont have to prove anything to u...or anybody.I come to be a member of this forum to seek guidance and to gain knowledge. If u think I dont have that right, well thats ur opinion.
God willing my birds will survive, breed , raise young ones and continue a life,with quality improving.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> It was a mistake, which I dont intend repeating...my birds are here , they are being cared for, I am not the best guardian ...if u think I am the worst ,,maybe I am still a little better than that. As much as u instigate me to give up on the sick birds, infact all my birds, I wont. I dont have to prove anything to u...or anybody.I come to be a member of this forum to seek guidance and to gain knowledge. If u think I dont have that right, well thats ur opinion.
> God willing my birds will survive, breed , raise young ones and continue a life,with quality improving.


but, since you don't take suggestions from any of us--despite the fact that an internet search would bring up similar advice--your birds' futures aren't looking bright. you need to realize that anything we've told you has been with the best of the bird in mind, and with experience behind that especially in jay and quazar's cases. by the way, are these currently ill birds on heating pads?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*OMG... I can't believe you killed him*....and the way you killed him. Early in the thread I gave dosage for the flagyl oral suspension....I have the same one.
For those of you that are unaware, *overdosing flagyl, [metronidazole] can cause neurological symptoms.*

I actually feel sick to my stomach.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Its all gravy the bird was real sick and I know its against the rules of this board but it sounds like he put an end to its suffering.

Harden up or turn a blind eye and accept sometimes its for the better. I wouldn't pay a vet to put down a bird.

Don't be too hard on fluffmasta he/she wants to save the others and carry on keeping pigeons.

Try giving constructive criticism rather than making him/her feel stupid.

fluffmasta, good luck with the remaining four . pay no attention to the bullies on here, just don't mention culling because they'll ban you.

Are you sure you know what the other four have? could it be cocci? Don't over medicate, Its possible thats what happend to your last pigeon.

Luke


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> *OMG... I can't believe you killed him*....and the way you killed him. Early in the thread I gave dosage for the flagyl oral suspension....I have the same one.
> For those of you that are unaware, *overdosing flagyl, [metronidazole] can cause neurological symptoms.*
> 
> I actually feel sick to my stomach.


I don't think it was an overdose of metronidazole (although your right about it causing neurological problems IF overdosed, but mostly in babies). Fluffmaster didn't start using it until later in the treatments.
Unfortunately I think this was a case of too many different meds (and homeopathic remedies- which I have no faith in) changing in a short period of time....bouncing from 1 med to another, not giving anything a chance to work.
Although I don't like or agree 'how' the bird was put down  I feel bad about the whole situation.....for Fluffmaster and the bird. I think he really cared but was getting confused and overwhelmed with so many different opinions and treatment recommendations from these 'master people'? And the bird being in such a delicate state to begin with, his body couldn't handle all these changes in meds and fight the disease. I just read thru the whole thread again. He seemed to do better, then another 'remedy med' would be added or changed, then he'd go downhill again. This was the pattern all the way thru the thread. It's too late for that bird, but I hope the other birds pull thru and I think they can IF he sticks to a treatment plan.
Fluffmaster, I don't think you need 6 different homeopathic remedies. Too many meds combined together are not good either. If it is in fact, Salmonella, the triple sulfa med that you originally used will treat that.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

thanks friends for the encouraging replies

let me describe the condition of the 4 birds. now that I find encouragement and support , I feel like sharing the whole experience. I have divided my loft in 2 portions.

In the first portion I have about 20 birds, all kings or modenas, all paired up and all breeding.I bought my first pair of kings in october last. thereafter I kept buying every now and then till december mid when one of them was the late king. there never was a problem till I discovered the late king was unwell, isolated him and posted the problem. I must say he seemed perfect at the shop. the shop keeper proved his point by leaving him out on floor with a female and he went straight ahead and started wooing her. I was satisfied. I dont know wether this bird was a carrier or what. he didnt infect any other bird.

I give them clean water , good grain mix, good grit and mineral powder mix.I keep the loft floor covered with wood shavings as I have found this to be the best means of having a clean loft for about 3 weeks, when I sweep the old shavings out and replace with fresh ones. they eat and drink and live and breed happily. I have been transferring the grown up squabs or juveniles after 40 days to the 2nd portion of my loft which is separated by about 8 feet, infact I have a portion in the middle, where I am keeping budgies, so the pigeons in two compartments are separated by a compartment of budgies.

I had about 6 juveniles and 8 newly bought pigeon in the 2nd portion of the loft. as i mentioned earlier, I committed the blunder of returning the late king pigeon about 10 days back on the assurance of someone that the bird had stopped dropping infection after a months, time,as if his droppings were perfect. well he never told me to reintroduce him with healthy birds. that was my own idea. now believe me, all the 6 juvenilles are healthy and eating by themselves. the problem came up with a king pair purchased on 22nd jan, a lahori shirazi pair purchased on 27th jan and a chuhe chandan(smaller form of lahoris) pair purchased on 29th jan.

the female of the king pair purchased on 22nd jan, was alright at the shop but on 25th I discovered her unable to eat, pecking and missing, and at first I thought she had PMV, so I isolated her.I thought she had this disease at the shop and somehow I could not detect it.
now I agree, I kept committing the blunder of purchasing new birds from the market and introducing them into my loft in quick succession , but I am lucky that none of my original healthy birds has got infected.

now coming back to the 4 pigeons under discussion.

the 1st one is the male of the king pair, whose female, I thought had PMV. this male keeps fluffed up, eats well, has perfect droppings but no activity. I mean he would always keep to himself , fluffed up. I have him separated and isolated for good about 5 days now and he seems ok.In my books he is not sick, except for his lonely behaviour, which I think I will address at an appropriate stage.

the second sick bird is the female of this king, and she definitely has either pmv or paratyphoid, but her head is not twisted. she does try to peck at grain but misses, her droppings are ok.

the third sick pigeon is the female of chuhe chandan, who appeared so well at the shop, and the shop keeper assured me that she is going to lay soon. she did lay 2 eggs jut the next days after bringing her, but then I noticed that she would frequently sit on the edge of the laying pot, fluffed up and obviously unwell. her mate was extraordinarily healthy, so beautiful, so full of life and continues to be so.

the 4th sick pigeon is the female of a lahori shirazi pair purchased on 29th jan.she looked a little low and unresponsive to me at my loft, and i promptly isolated her. her male is again a symbol of beauty, energy and naughtiness and continues to be so.

now the first sick pigeon is no more sick, in that sense and I am left with 3 sick pigeons.

the female king is on the make shift heating pad, fed and drunk by hand, and suspecting early stage of paratyphoid, I give her PC 14, (pigeon care 14). now u guys are going to curse me for this god forsaken homeopathic medicine, but let me tell u. I used it only once on the sick late pigeon and his droppings improved in 24 hours. since then I gave up all anti biotic on him as his droppings were perfect after 48 hour and i left giving even that as the dropping were ideal thereafter.

so thats why I gave PC14 to the new sick king female and her droppings are great.

the second sick pigeon, is the female of lahori shirazi, and her droppings were watery, somehow I didnt give her PC14. I dont know why, but I gave her veti stp. today in the evening I noticed undigested seed in her droppings. she i on a makeshift heating pad, eats and drinks by her own and shows no sign of nervous damage either of pmv or paratyphoid.

the third sick pigeon i the female of chuhe chandan, she is again on a makeshift heating pad, at times eats and drinks, and her droppings are mostly white chalky. this evening I fed her with hand a i thought she want eating well, but after sometime i noticed she was vomiting and there was simple yellowish water on her back side on the newspaper, I didnt know but i think it must have either come out of her mouth or her vent i m not sure. i am giving her veti stp. now veti stp i have discussed earlier, is the mot effective broad based anti biotic of lahore market, and readily recommended by every one. its like the baytril of america. go to a shop and tell them, my bird i sick and they will give u veti tp. i have given picture and detailed composition a few pages back.
now this i the latest.
i m going to federal capital Islamabad tomorrow and will,l return day after. I have asked my son, to hand feed those who are not feeding.
I have prepared two full 1.5 liter of veti tp mixed water, one with preventive quantity for giving to all birds and the other with treatment quantity for the sick birds. My house maid will put the birds on hot water every 5 hours and when my wife returns , she will do it twice.

my son can hand feed the birds and also can make them drink.

I am particularly worried about the 2 females a I dont really know what exactly their sickness is, so beside other good points of advice , I need advice on them as well. and if u people ask me to forsake veti stp or PC 14, honestly I will and start off with baytril or anything that u suggest.
i think by now u all have noticed one thing. none of my original birds, or their squabs have acquired any illness and I thank my stars for this. I promise, I will never introduce new birds with others before a sure quarantine of at least a month. I have learnt it to stay with me till my death.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

In case you ever need one here is a list of veterinarians in or near your area.

http://pawspakistan.org/2009/01/01/veterinary-doctors-in-pakistan/


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

I returned on friday.

I just treated one of the sick pigeons, a female of lahori shirazi,,, fairly successfully.A friend guided me that undigested grain is one sign of worms in the bird,s digestive system. I think she really had worms and I gave her a dewormer (albendazole) tablet yesterday. almost 1/6th of the doze recommended for humans or 50 mg. I am sure she will be better off in the coming days.


































the other cute chuhe chandan female, unfortunately died while I was still in Islamabad.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Did you worm her before that picture was taken?...Because those are roundworms in the poop.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> Did you worm her before that picture was taken?...Because those are roundworms in the poop.


yes free bird, i did and the worms u see r a consequence of the treatment...can u advice me something to solidify the poops in this case as they r still v watery...is she suffering a bacterial infection as well?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

fluffmaster said:


> yes free bird, i did and the worms u see r a consequence of the treatment...can u advice me something to solidify the poops in this case as they r still v watery...is she suffering a bacterial infection as well?


Worm infestation can weaken their system letting other issues take hold....bacterial infections, coccidia, etc. Is she eating and otherwise acting normal (no fluffing up?). If she was mine, I would keep her isolated and treat her with triple sulfa for 7 days, and see how she does with that.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

In case you ever need one here is a list of veterinarians in or near your area.

http://pawspakistan.org/2009/01/01/v...s-in-pakistan/


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> In case you ever need one here is a list of veterinarians in or near your area.
> 
> http://pawspakistan.org/2009/01/01/v...s-in-pakistan/


thanks spirit ..I,ve already noted that link


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> Worm infestation can weaken their system letting other issues take hold....bacterial infections, coccidia, etc. Is she eating and otherwise acting normal (no fluffing up?). If she was mine, I would keep her isolated and treat her with triple sulfa for 7 days, and see how she does with that.


thanks free bird
giving her a mix of anti biotic, (baytril) and vitamin B right now


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

although there were deaths since my last post, I have discovered a very vital truth in treatment of sick pigeons. vaccinate your healthy birds. so i got this vaccine.










its emulsified nd virus of lasota strain. since I used this,( 0.5 cc shot per bird in breast), the death sweep by solmonilla or PMV whatever it was is in great control. for a moment I must say, I think it gives immunity against solmonilla as well.I am taking great sanitary and hygienic precautions. this includes changing wood saw on floor every fortnight and spraying it with disinfectant every 4th or 5th day.

I keep all birds on apple cider vinegar, fresh garlic and pinch of anti biotic added to water at all times.also giving them a good herbal supplement to boost immunity in powdered form which they like a lot.

no more birds from the market.I think I as well as my birds are quite happy now.

and btw albendazole is toxic to pigeons I totally agree, as two birds administered with it for deworming died the next day.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> although there were deaths since my last post, I have discovered a very vital truth in treatment of sick pigeons. vaccinate your healthy birds. so i got this vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once there are no more sick birds in the flock, you should not give antibiotic to them. Giving antibiotic when it's not needed is what makes super-germs. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075

Other than that, sounds good. It's too bad your dewormed birds died..


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> Once there are no more sick birds in the flock, you should not give antibiotic to them. Giving antibiotic when it's not needed is what makes super-germs. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075
> 
> Other than that, sounds good. It's too bad your dewormed birds died..


I am aware of this libis,,,many thanks,,,but my anti biotic is one of the most novel product available world wide. pulmo care by phytosynthese france. I got it from a friend working in a local company importing this product in pakistan. Its sales are increasing day by day and it is being regularly used by poultry shed owners and is fast replacing the conventional medicines. its a great herbal product with absolutely no side effects.

I still see an odd bird slightly fluffed up or watery droppings here or there, so all birds are still not 100 % fine.

but I will sure give up un necessary meds the moment they are unnecessary, meaning that I see 100 % perfect and healthy birds.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> I am aware of this libis,,,many thanks,,,but my anti biotic is one of the most novel product available world wide. pulmo care by phytosynthese france. I got it from a friend working in a local company importing this product in pakistan. Its sales are increasing day by day and it is being regularly used by poultry shed owners and is fast replacing the conventional medicines. its a great herbal product with absolutely no side effects.
> 
> I still see an odd bird slightly fluffed up or watery droppings here or there, so all birds are still not 100 % fine.
> 
> but I will sure give up un necessary meds the moment they are unnecessary, meaning that I see 100 % perfect and healthy birds.


Yep, if anybody is still fluffed, they're probably still sick. I'm just saying once they're well...


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> Yep, if anybody is still fluffed, they're probably still sick. I'm just saying once they're well...


greatful libis,,,I do keep some beautiful doves, ring necks. a couple of them have a strange problem. they dont seem to lay eggs in the round guaze nest that i provide. instead they insist on sitting idle in the feed pot. how can I get them off it. another one died a few days back.on post mortem i noticed, she had a lot of water in her crop. what could be this? and there are a lot of watery droppings as well.
r signature tells me , you are a dove lover and i hope an expert too.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> greatful libis,,,I do keep some beautiful doves, ring necks. a couple of them have a strange problem. they dont seem to lay eggs in the round guaze nest that i provide. instead they insist on sitting idle in the feed pot. how can I get them off it. another one died a few days back.on post mortem i noticed, she had a lot of water in her crop. what could be this? and there are a lot of watery droppings as well.
> r signature tells me , you are a dove lover and i hope an expert too.


I've never seen water in the crop quite like that. Hopefully another member here has. 

Ringnecks like bowls to sit in. Maybe try buying dog bowls. That's what mine like to sit in.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> I've never seen water in the crop quite like that. Hopefully another member here has.
> 
> Ringnecks like bowls to sit in. Maybe try buying dog bowls. That's what mine like to sit in.


my nests are quite like the one susan is sitting on, metallic border with fine wire mesh bottom, which I fill with hay straw for nesting material and slightly larger though


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> my nests are quite like the one susan is sitting on, metallic border with fine wire mesh bottom, which I fill with hay straw for nesting material and slightly larger though


Yeah, my ringnecks won't touch those. Only my diamonds and finches like them.

My ringnecks like heavy ceramic dog bowls.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

Libis said:


> Yeah, my ringnecks won't touch those. Only my diamonds and finches like them.
> 
> My ringnecks like heavy ceramic dog bowls.


can we have some pics of those yours or any body else,s?


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> can we have some pics of those yours or any body else,s?


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

many thanks Libis, 

the good news is that there is not a single sickness or death at my loft for the past 2 months now.

I attribute this to greater understanding of bird diseases, their prevention and treatment, besides many blessings from Allah Almighty who thought I didnt deserve to suffer for one odd mistake here or there.

it also comes from frequent interaction with fellows and pals on this forum, and in my town and their kindness and willingness to readily help me and my birds.

The birds are so vibrant...I give them regular bathing water, and apple cider, garlic and ginger in their water....ensure they dont pollute their feed by giving them only what they can consume in 10 minutes. the loft is washed and disinfected frequently and then expeditiously dried out. I have found ways of solidifying their watery poops that I,d like to share with friends who are concerned by watery poops in seemingly healthy birds.
I continue to vaccinate them in time. There is a lot of breeding here and there and the breeding section swarms with lovely squeaks every now and then. I have so many young birds getting transferred to YB section each weekend and 3 to 4 nests being added every fortnight.

Pigeons have become a passion with me.Thanks to the many people who discouraged and rebuked me on the earlier pages...


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

fluffmaster said:


> many thanks Libis,
> 
> the good news is that there is not a single sickness or death at my loft for the past 2 months now.
> 
> ...


I'm so glad to hear that everything is falling into place for you with your loft. It sounds like everybody in there is happy.


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## fluffmaster (Nov 3, 2011)

my loft is now just like a heaven of pigeons....the second generations are breeding...no disease,no deaths...good quality feed, neat fresh water all the time, bathing water offered daily...ample breeding boxes ...commendable sanity and hygiene...

where are those who decried me for being a poor bird keeper ...
come here u thankless fools and reply


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