# Recessive red / yellow vs spread red / yellow



## mncanary

How do you tell the difference between recessive red and spread red? Similarly, how do you tell the difference between recessive yellow and spread yellow?

Still trying to figure things out. I'm 61 years, so I figure I've only got 40 years more to understand this! I'm studying as fast as I can!

Dave


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## Print Tippler

Are you talking about spread ash red and spread ash yellow? They don't come out looking red or yellow at all just ashy silver color. If you mean ressesive red vs ressesive red with spread. Spreads birds come out looking better and all the red on the bird is one shade


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## NZ Pigeon

Hi Dave

Recessive red makes the bird red all over, Its flights and tail feathers will be red

Ash red spread will not make a uniform red pigeon, Ash red comes from the fact that an ash red bird is a red/grey ash colour, When you add spread to ash red it actually turns the bird a lighter grey, I will get you some pics of some ash red spreads soon.

Same applies to yellow except the colour has been diluted so appears lighter.

Spread will make blue/black or Brown pigeons a uniform colour. What spread does is takes the colour of the tail bar and spreads it all over the pigeon, An ash red bird has a grey tail with some red flecking in most cases and this is why an ash red spread bird appears grey/red.

In saying all of this spread is often added to recessive red to make a good uniform red.

Pics coming soon.


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## MaryOfExeter

Recessive red
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Carneau.jpg
Recessive yellow
http://www.freewebs.com/creeksidelofts/photos/Rare colored Rollers/2008_04120035.JPG
Ash-red spread
http://www.freewebs.com/creeksidelofts/photos/Danny Horner Jaconettes/2008_04180037.JPG
Ash-yellow spread
http://www.freewebs.com/creeksidelofts/photos/Rare colored Rollers/Picture 009.JPG
Ash-red t-pattern
http://www.skylakesions.com/breeders/pair_49/SIRE.jpg
Ash-yellow t-pattern
http://www.ifauna.cz/images/mforum-foto/prew/201110/4e99e20b8eb2a.jpg


One mistake people make is thinking that "spread" means "solid". Spread is a gene that takes the color of the tail bar and spreads it over the entire body. It may or may not cover it completely. Coarse spreads will have a hard time covering up the pattern. Smooth spreads will be a consistant smooth color. Spread blue creates black because the tail bar on a blue bird is black. Ash-red spread makes a lavender ashy color because that's the color the tail is. Same thing for spread ash-yellow, making an even lighter color due to being dilute. Spread brown makes a solid brown color as the tail bar is brown.


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## NZ Pigeon

Well there you go. I was going to take some pictures of my birds to give examples but Becky bet me to it. I will get around to adding some more examples of ash red spreads as I have a few varieties of them and it will show how much ash red spread can vary from one to another. Good examples though Becky. Love the ash yellow spread. I am putting dilute into my homers at the moment and can't wait to start putting it with grizzle, Spread and such.


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## Henk69

I understood that spread ash reds can be one of three colors:
lavender
strawberry
mahogany (resembles the T-pattern ash red)

http://aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/10E04A06.pdf


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## sreeshs

I am not sure how much lavender and strawberry is supposed to differ from each other but if it does, then it might be due to additional genes other than the spread gene.


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## NZ Pigeon

Henk69 said:


> I understood that spread ash reds can be one of three colors:
> lavender
> strawberry
> mahogany (resembles the T-pattern ash red)
> 
> http://aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/10E04A06.pdf


Those are phenotype names, some people call all ash red spreads lavender, Some people call them Strawberry or mahogony. I prefer to say ash red spread and keep it simple. As I pointed out Ash red spread does vary a lot depending on base colour and other modifiers present, I have a few variations and will throw up some pics when I get around to taking some.


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## Print Tippler

strawberry is a sooty ash red bar. Heres a picture Becky posted awhile ago of a bird she had

this is strawberry


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## NZ Pigeon

Print Tippler said:


> strawberry is a sooty ash red bar. Heres a picture Becky posted awhile ago of a bird she had
> 
> this is strawberry


Yes I agree but people also call Ash red spreads strawberry. This is why I believe its better to identify birds with their genotypes not their phenotypes. Its the same as racing people calling mealeys - silvers and some people calling Blue dilutes silvers. 

Nice bird, I had a 10 year old racing cock, Mealey bar with sooty that looked very similar. Gave him to a friend to retire over in their loft as they live in a place where the birds can be free range and I thought that would be a nice retirement for him.


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## Print Tippler

well, i agree with the strawberry being really just a neck name but, i don't see any problem calling a black pigeon black, and not a blue spread, or an blue dilute calling it silver. If talking to other people who understand, less with racers and some show people you may have to explain. We should be able to call a bird a silver bar and know we are talking about dilute blue only problem there is an antithesis with genetic names and racer nick names, where it seems neither party will be budging.


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## MaryOfExeter

To me, sooty ash-red bars have always been strawberries and ash-red spreads have always been lavender. I have only heard ash-red spread called strawberry in other countries. But that's just me. I usually explain what I mean when I say one of those. Especially since milky black is also called lavender in lahores.


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## Print Tippler

i understand, i would like to a see an ash red barless sooty, that would look nice. Anyways you get the same problem with pale recessive red and pale gimple both being called gold, don't you. maybe the pale recessive red should be called recessive gold, that would make the most sense to me. i still refuse to call all my silver bars dilute blue bars because theres a bunch of people calling ash red bars, siliver.


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## mncanary

NZ Pigeon said:
In saying all of this spread is often added to recessive red to make a good uniform red.​
This is what I was asking, in a poorly worded way. A bird that is recessive red, with spread added, is more uniform? 

My recessive yellows are less than uniform--some lightness to the flights and above the tail. 

All of this conversation is really interesting, thanks!

Dave


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## horseart4u

i have a question about one of my male birds, he looks like this one, but each of his feathers on his wing shields is outlined in red, no he is not a check wing either. what would i consider him as being?


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## horseart4u

ok here is red cloud the bird i am asking about.


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## loftkeeper

My Two Cent Worth On Colors . Some Breeds Have Better Color Than Others . Also There Are Some Breeds That Call One Color Something That Is Not Right. So When Looking For Answers You Must Look At The Color In Question And No What It Should Look Like. Example Red And Yellow Homers There Are Some Good Colored Ones . But Alot Of Them Have White Feathers And Are Not Deep Colored As West Of England A Breed That Strives For Good Color . I Know This Might Not Make Sense To Some . But My Point Is That Good Color Is Just That.


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## Print Tippler

Yes, spread helps recessive red. Really spread and bronze i think are the biggest factors to a good red. Then you want dirty, smokey and sooty on top of all that and you want it on an ash red i believe is best. I think poor yellows look better than poor reds. Heres one of my bad reds, all my other ones seem to be a lot better. But this is a good example.

Before moult









after moult, i just had to go take a picture i thought i had some, it was dark so its not that good a picture









heres you can see how bad the flights are behind the yellow 









tail, im not sure if it moulted better or not. This was pre moult









Thankfully, this is my only "bad" rec red even though i still like him because he is my only self red. I think i might breed him to a black (blue spread) who i believe is smokey and i know he is het rec red. That would bring some good ones out too.

As for your bird horseart, it is an ash red check grizzle.


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## horseart4u

cool ok i did have someone tell me he was an ash red lace because of the outlining on his feathers but i will call him what you guys will say i am still learning the color thing, i know BB, BC & PIEDS mostly and grizzles


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## Print Tippler

Its just the grizzle that makes that. You know its a cock too right, the flecks.


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## horseart4u

Print Tippler said:


> Its just the grizzle that makes that. You know its a cock too right, the flecks.


oh yeah him and his red t-check pied mate are on their second clutch of fake eggs.


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## Print Tippler

I'm the not of ressesive red and yellow, I have never seen a red mottle with light flights or a grey tail. I wonder if the mottle help improve them so to speak


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## MaryOfExeter

Looks like a coarse ash-red spread to me, not grizzle. Or maybe not. I don't know. I'm used to seeing a lighter ground color on ash-red grizzles and more white, even for het grizzles.

Also, don't forget indigo is good to have in recessive red. I'm not sure about which base color being preferred. Blue looks better, in my opinion. I'd rather see it leaking through than ash-red. But that's just me.


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## Print Tippler

I don't know, I thought I heard ash red was better. Didn't you say you thought mine was ash red? Do you still think so? If so I may "sacrifice" him as being my only self to bring some ash reds into the loft. Cross him with a silver velvet and hope he is split for dilute.


EDIT: yeah your right ash red is not a good base for rec red.


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## NZ Pigeon

horseart4u said:


> ok here is red cloud the bird i am asking about.


Its an ash red spread.


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## Print Tippler

okay, to recap the best recessive red is probably a blue t pattern spread indigo bronze sooty smokey dirty all in the homozygous state. There might be other things you could through in and im not sure you want homozygous dirty or just her dirty.


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## Henk69

There goes the theory that dirty is allelic to recessive red...


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## Print Tippler

The red could just maintain the flesh beak. When you combine dirty and smoking on a blue based bird your left with dark beaks. Where did you hear about that though?


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## Henk69

On the yahoo board.
Don't come there anymore, the software is too old.


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## Print Tippler

I looked into and the united show tippler club states

http://www.showtippler.org.uk/genetics page.htm



> Recessive Red masks the effects of Dirty.


I don't know if they mean just the beak or the whole bird in general. There's obviously darker shades of reds and lighter shades of red. It would be hard to conduct a study on it really I think. Therodically dirty should help.


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## thepigeonkey

the yahoo boards are confusing! but here you have to be carefull what you say,... like necking birds and stuff


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## thepigeonkey

so... about the recessive red colour. did anyone explain its the same as recessive white? a pair of blue birds each carrying one gene of recessive red can produce recessive red offspring. because its recessive a bird need two genes (one from each parent) to show in that colour.
A blue bird can carry one gene of recessive red but not ash red. An ash red bird can carry one gene of blue and/or one gene of recessive red


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## Henk69

I can't imagine that ash red would help since it removes the red color from the flights and tail.


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## NZ Pigeon

Henk69 said:


> I can't imagine that ash red would help since it removes the red color from the flights and tail.


When rec red is in two doses it would cover all base colours so the flights and tail would remain red regardless of base colour. I have seen rec red birds that are blue based which have a blue tinge to them, I prefer rec reds covering ash red as you don't get the blue tinge.


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## Print Tippler

Well, Ive read different things. Maybe well improved ash red recessive reds are best, but unimproved i think blue is better. You saw my ash red recessive red above. Here is a blue recessive red

It is more noticeable in person or if you take like a black piece paper or something and put it behind the wing the camera would have picked it up better.


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## NZ Pigeon

Print Tippler said:


> Well, Ive read different things. Maybe well improved ash red recessive reds are best, but unimproved i think blue is better. You saw my ash red recessive red above. Here is a blue recessive red
> 
> It is more noticeable in person or if you take like a black piece paper or something and put it behind the wing the camera would have picked it up better.


Yeah your probably right, My main exposure to rec reds is through muff tumblers which have been perfected over the years so they are all reasonable quality regardless of base colour. I will add though that I do not have much rec red,in my loft. Only in a het stage at this point so do not have a lot of hands on knowledge on this breed, One thing I have noticed though is the Blue tinge that can show through on blue based rec reds.

I have read a few things aswell. some conflicting, some make a lot of sense. I guess some of it comes down to opinion.


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## NZ Pigeon

MaryOfExeter said:


> To me, sooty ash-red bars have always been strawberries and ash-red spreads have always been lavender. *I have only heard ash-red spread called strawberry in other countries.* But that's just me. I usually explain what I mean when I say one of those. Especially since milky black is also called lavender in lahores.


Your right, NZ is one of those countries


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## Print Tippler

Yeah, i have 12 reds in my loft none of which are really anything good. The reds that come out of my red x bronze pair may come out a lot better though!. Im in communications now with a show tippler breeder talking about tippler bronze and he said dark bronze x red is gives the best results and that you can really one do a bronze x bronze for on generation. So its a good thing i have some reds. Another shocking thing is that bronze mottles are purely piebald based breed from selfs with one or acouple white feathers. He said it takes 4 generations to get a mottled bird and also that recessive red mottle does not effect the bronze at all. Doesnt matter if it a self red or mottle. Phenotype must not cross over.


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## rudolph.est

Print Tippler said:


> okay, to recap the best recessive red is probably a blue t pattern spread indigo bronze sooty smokey dirty all in the homozygous state. There might be other things you could through in and i'm not sure you want homozygous dirty or just her dirty.


Indigo is not necessary to breed good recessive reds. In fact homozygous indigo could hamper good expression because it reduces the amount of pigment present, similarly, it is said to be rather hard to breed good dark recessive reds on an ash-red ground. Bronzes definitely intensify and darken the expression of recessive red (as does smoky, and most of the dirties - there seems to be more than one dirty gene).

It is very difficult to breed show quality reds from birds that do not have the necessary intensity of color. Most standards require a copper / bronze brick red color, while others (like barbs) require a totally different color. IMHO it is probably easier to breed a good almond than it is to breed a good recessive red, after crossing.


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## Print Tippler

After looking at some birds I think a good bronze will do a lot.


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## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> Indigo is not necessary to breed good recessive reds. In fact homozygous indigo could hamper good expression because it reduces the amount of pigment present, *similarly, it is said to be rather hard to breed good dark recessive reds on an ash-red ground.* Bronzes definitely intensify and darken the expression of recessive red (as does smoky, and most of the dirties - there seems to be more than one dirty gene).
> 
> It is very difficult to breed show quality reds from birds that do not have the necessary intensity of color. Most standards require a copper / bronze brick red color, while others (like barbs) require a totally different color. IMHO it is probably easier to breed a good almond than it is to breed a good recessive red, after crossing.


Sounds like the consensus is rec red on blue base is best. I know Kite bronze is a good bronze to add to rec red. 

Its interesting what you say about dirty, I have noticed differences with the dirty on my Thiefs ( really dark ) and some ferals I have seen, Even when my thiefs are het dirty they are still a LOT darker than anything I have seen in pics or on the streets.


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## Print Tippler

ive changed my mine  Ive heard ash red a lot and im inconclusive. I think i have another ash red based one in my loft. Will have to wait for it to moult in an adult plumage but looks ash red. Saw another one bleeding really hard blue today. I think they both have pros and con but i think in the end when either one is approved they look good. I can see how ash red can make as dark of an red and different breeds want different reds.


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