# YB Swollen Leg



## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I was gifted 3 ybs last week from a club member who had some late hatches..when he gave them to me I didn't inspect them.. but I quarantined them in their own cage until they get older to be with my other birds. Today, my better half was looking over the birds and noticed the splash young bird has a sneeze. I took a closer look at him and I noticed the leg he has his band on is swollen like 3 times the size of his left leg. 

My question is do I isolate this bird ie (bring him inside) and start a anti-biotic routine? Do I skip the waiting and remove the leg band now? (the swelling doesn't allow the band to spin around the leg) Do you need pics to tell the correct solution or method of treatment or was this ybs foot broken when the band was placed on? 

I am not going back to the club member and complain..He asked if I wanted it and I accepted..so now I need to help this little guy "get right". Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi jAx,



Good close up images would help.


If the Band is impeding circulation, given the swollen condition, I'd say, remove the Band.


Can you feel the Leg between your finger tip pads to see if there is a central area of swelling or maybe any looseness suggesting a cracked Bone?


Phil
Lv


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I just noticed this condition earlier today. I haven't "tampered" with this bird yet. I want make sure whatever I do is the correct thing to do. Tomorrow I will take a picture and feel the area and maybe that will assist the diagnosis. Thank you for the late nite reply.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You bet...

But, check the Band now...and, if it is constricting, remove it.

Otherwise, he could risk loosing the Leg or the Foot.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes, remove that band. Then check and see if the pigeon is walking on the leg. If you can get him/her to a vet, all the better. If not....then it becomes guesswork...Could it be a soft-tissue injury ? Could it be a fracture with a bone infection developing?

Amoxycillin would be what I'd go with in this instance, along with some sort of anti-inflammatory such as Medacam/Meloxicam or...barring that...just some Ibuprophen.

Hopefully once meds start the sneezing will also resolve....

Keep us posted.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Believe it or not the swelling has gone way down..It is nothing as bad as it was yesterday. So Whoever it was that prayed for my little bird Thank You. It is still swollen but the band is loose and he walks on it without favoring the other leg. Here are the pics from this afternoon:

























Looking at the pics you see the difference in size of the ankle joints but I felt him and did not feel any "give" when I pressed on his leg...in fact he did not even react so either its numb to him or he is a tough little bird. I do have Aureomycin right now which I have not given him yet...is that a good enough Anti-Biotic or do I need to find Amoxycillian? When he stands you can see his "club foot" better but it is nothing like it was yesterday. Also I did not notice it when I recieved the bird...is it possible its just a minor infection? Thank you for the help.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

He is walking on it fairly normally? Or, favoring it how much?


Kinda looks more like a sprain to me...but, hard to say...

The swelling of of the 'Ankle' and up from there how far?


Phil
Lv


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> He is walking on it fairly normally? Or, favoring it how much?
> 
> 
> Kinda looks more like a sprain to me...but, hard to say...
> ...


Above the ankle ie the leg with the band is larger then the left leg. I believe it is part of the swelling. The AU band spins freely now..it can slide up and down the leg..of course the ankle is swollen and I noticed some of his toes are twisted. Instead of the toe nail being straight out the end of the toe..it lays sideways. I remember now the club member who gave me the bird said its nest mate died. I believe he said it was too sick and culled it. He said this one is a healthier and will be a good bird. So should I wait and see how it is tomorrow before I isolate him and start the anti-biotic treatment? or Treat him regardless in case this is a "flare up" and prevent it from re-occurring? I do not have the Amoxycillian just the Aureomycin is this stuff any good?
Thank you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jax, 


Aureomycin is a very good antibiotic, and, if the Leg and Wrist swelling is due to an infection which was blood borne, and happened to have somehow settled there, it might be a good Medicine to try

Do you think this Leg Foot issue was something this Pigeon had for quite a while before you got him?

Or, that it was maybe just a little less pronounced, till now?


If it was a sprain, or a green-stick fracture, I would expect him to prefer to not walk on it.


So, since he is walking on it, that maybe kinda suggests an infection of some sort...since an inflammation from infection might not always be sensitive or painful, just 'swollen'...



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

jAxTecH, how is the bird today.

There are a few red flags going on here, an extremely sick nest mate that was culled, swelling in the leg, and sneezing. Could just be a series of coincidences (I don't believe in coincidences, by the way). To be safe for this bird and your others, I would recommend starting him on 14 days of treatment on Baytril. This regime will clear a salmonella (paratyphoid) infection (carrier state too) and clear up developing, or present, respiratory issues as well. Could end up being nothing more than a sprain, but with what happened with his nest mate, best not take chances, at least in IMHO. The regime is safe and effective and worth the insurance (and assurance) it will buy. I would keep him in isolation until treatment is completed.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Thank You Phil and Dobato, 
I will start the auromycin today for all my young birds..I have 5 just in case whatever this lttle splash has is passed to the others. Good thing I quareentined / isolated my ybs from other birds. I doubt the old man was giving me a trojan horse maybe just does'nt want late hatches and this little guy picked up something. 
I agree about not believing in coincidencess..they are all "clues" to the state of health of the birds. I have'nt actually seen him sneeze but my fiancee says she did. Better safe then sorry. The leg looks about the same as today still a noticable difference. His toes seem crooked compared to the other birds. I will update this Monday and start him on the medicine today.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

jAxTecH, the Aureomycin (Chlortetracycline) is a good drug for a number of infections and worthwhile starting him on, if this is the only antibiotic you have. However, for my real concerns, (nest mate, leg swelling) you will need a drug in the fluoroquinolone family of drugs, Baytril (Enrofloxacin), Ciprofloxacin or Norfloxacin to effective treat, and most importantly, clear a carrier state for salmonellosis (paratyphoid) if this is indeed the problem with your guy. As I said, very well may not be an issue with infection, but correct treatment/eradication would require one of the mentioned drugs.

You can purchase 10% Baytril here:

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

Others may have suggestions for you as well.

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> jAxTecH, the Aureomycin (Chlortetracycline) is a good drug for a number of infections and worthwhile starting him on, if this is the only antibiotic you have. However, for my real concerns, (nest mate, leg swelling) you will need a drug in the fluoroquinolone family of drugs, Baytril (Enrofloxacin), Ciprofloxacin or Norfloxacin to effective treat, and most importantly, clear a carrier state for salmonellosis (paratyphoid) if this is indeed the problem with your guy. As I said, very well may not be an issue with infection, but correct treatment/eradication would require one of the mentioned drugs.
> 
> You can purchase 10% Baytril here:
> 
> ...



I do not know squat about avian veterinarian medicine I looked at the link and saw this disclaimer "Baytril can cause abnormalities in young birds 1 to 21 days old." This bird still has the yellow down feathers on his head. 

Luckily I was gifted 2 bottles of Berimax and I believe it is good for safely removing the harmful bacteria that could be carriers for other diseases. This is what I have now..today. Any other medicines I will have to order and wait for shipping to be delivered. The feed stores here don't really stock anything good for pigeons and even their chicken and turkey medicines are limited. 

I am curious what book would you recommend to help me get "up to speed" on Avian medicine and vaccinations..I never had a interest in knowing all these medicines and family of medicines and brand names the medicines are sold under until now. So any recommendations would be appreciated. Thank you.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

JAxTecH, here are a couple of links to a few good books on pigeon care. In the first link, once the site comes up, you will have to click on products (in the side bar) then click "Books" on the page you land on. Although, I do not have this particular book, I have heard good things about it. In the second link, I have both of the books by Dr. Talaber and found them insightful and useful (one his books is also offered for sale on Dr. Walker's site).

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/
http://www.pigeonbooks.com/index.php?l=en

Sometimes a lot of what we do is based on experience and just something your "gut" is telling you. The Berimax, while never using it myself, I have heard good things said about it, but never that it treats and cures salmonella or will clear a bird of a carrier state of it.

How old is your little guy, as they can still have some yellow a bit past 21 days.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi jAxTecH,



You might write to Nils to see his opinion on the efficaacy of 'BERIMAX' in entrenched localized Salmonella inflamation issues.

Or I will, or we both can!


I do not have much experience with those, maybe none actually...but, that does not mean it could not happen here...and I do wish to learn more about it.


I think Karyn is probably correct in assigning that syndrome/organism, to this symptom.


Check the Pigeon's Wings also, top of the Wings where the 'elbow' is, and see if there is any hint of swelling localized there...like a soft pink little 'bump'.

Probably is not, but, that is another place they can get it happening.



I do not personally know of any Books, but, I think there are some fairly good ones out there.


The ones I bought proved totally useless, and only dealt with Necropsy Microscope related tissue examinations, for narrowing diagnostic questions after-the-fact.

No Book I had investigated had any information about care giving or managing recoveries or for actually doing anythig productiuve or useful.


Some Books will provide information of course, on the range and kinds of Micro-Organisms to which specific Medications can be directed.


These tend to be very narrow, and, in my opinion, very incomplete as far as many simple things they overlook, or, which they feel are outside their narrow scope of intention ( ie: to stay only with formal Pharacueticals only ).


None of the Books I iinvestigated had anything to offer for praxis or method for anything, other than maybe, one or two bad line-drawings, which purported to show how to bind a Broken Wing or Leg, with no digressive Text about how not to screw it up.


So, no matter what one does or aspires to...it is a long gather...a dib here, a dab there, try this, try that, and, over time, somehow, assemble the 'Tool Box', and, realize it is subject to revision and improvement or finer divisions, of course.



Impirical diagnosis or praxis seems to remain fairly obscure, as far as literature.


Yet, that is what we must generally rely on and have, to aid these Birds.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Karyn, I would say he is about 30 days old today..I added Berimax to their water and all 5 of my ybs (3 gift birds and 2 feral born birds) have began the medication process. The reason I did not isolate this bird for individual treatment is because if he has "something" then maybe he passed it to the others.Better in my mind to treat them all just in case. I will look into the links and research the books you have recommended. I am impressed with yours and Phil's knowledge of Pigeon Medicine..Now I see why most pigeon fanciers are seniors...it takes a lifetime to learn all this stuff..just kidding..I'm a quick study. I have'nt checked the wing joint..its raining right now but I will tomorrow. Thank you again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lol...


I mostly just did logistically Orphan Baby raising from like 1980 till around five or size years ago.

I figured out allsorts of things about caring for and raising Babys, and, socializing them to their Wild kin for good releases.


Most of the time, the Baby's I'd get were healthy, sometimes, injured or ill, and, I seemed to manage the ill or injured stuff well.


I'd get in occasional sick or injured adult Birds, but, seemed seldom, and, my 'Tool Box' was pretty limited.

None the less, by guess or by golly, I tended to rarely loose any, no matter how bad they were when found.


Last five or six years, I probably increased my everything ten fold at least.



I think this came about from my leaving my phone number with some various Vets, so they could call me to come get Birds people dropped into the Vet's Lap ( rather than euthenising)...

Well, did I ever get SLAMMED!!!


Geeeeeeze, I'd have weeks on end of nothing but Bird things 18 hours a day, 7 days a week.


That is a Widow maker, believe me.

But, it also led to endless brooding, inventing things, fast pep-talks and brainstorming with Vets, reasoning things out, inventing means or methods to deal with certain things, and seeing a lot of different problems/injuries/illnesses.

I had to go and get back my Phone Number though from these various Vets, because it was killing me, and, like it or not, I have to Work for a Living! Lol, Otherwise there is no dough for Rent, Food, Birdseed, Cigarettes, Gasolene, Internet, etc.


Anyway...I never set out to get into this stuff, just one thing led to another!


I live in an inner city, and, hurt, sick, or logsitically orphan or abandoned Baby Birds, are something which is part of the bleak Urban ambience.




Treating everyone there jAx, sounds good to me, good reasoning.

Berimax is fine to do along with whatever Meds, far as I know and have read.

I am thinking a little 'Stevia' and Licorice Extract maybe, in with the Berimax, might allow the more tentative or disinclined, to drink it, since it is otherwise on the bitter side when mixed to theraputic strength.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

There is a lot of good knowledge right here at Pigeon Talk, take some time to go through some of the old threads, there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained.

JAxTecH, I went to the Berimax web site and although this is not a lot of information there, from what I could glean, Berimax is a contact "med" meaning it has to come in direct contact with a protozoa (canker) or a fungus (candida) or different bacteria to exert its effect. It is not, I believe, a systemic medicine, that is, a medicine meant to be absorbed by the blood and body's tissues to kill or halt growth of sensitive organisms. If by chance your bird is infected with salmonella, he will need a systemic antibiotic that salmonella is sensitive to (there are a number of these), but only drugs in the fluoroquinolone family will clear a carrier state, not much more I can say on this. 

I will say that whatever your plan is for treatment for this little one, it would be worthwhile ordering in some Baytril regardless. It Metronidazole and a de-wormer, such as Ivermectin or Moxidectin, make up a few of the essential small handful of "should-have-around meds" you really need to have on hand, if you are keeping pigeons.

Best of luck with your birds, I really do hope it's just a sprain and nothing more,

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I will order some Monday...how is the "Wazine" wormer compared to the Moxidectin? I can get Wazine locally. Besides Baytril and a de-wormer what other medicines should I have? Right now I have Aureomycin and Berimax. I use Diatomacious Earth as a mechanical dewormer but I don't know how long it takes to work. I do have Kefir I mist on top of their food for the beneficial pro biotic effect. I use Red Cell once a week in their water and Apple Cider Vinegar (teaspoon to a gallon) 4 days a week and 2 days I use Garlic Juice w/ Brewers Yeast. So far what I have received as healthy has stayed healthy...this little guy is my first real encounter with a ailment. Let me know what medicines I should add to my "Pigeon First Aid" cabinet and I will add it to my order Monday. Thank you again.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, preparing in advance and having some essential meds on hand would be prudent. The list could really expand, as there are lots of "nice to have on hand" meds, but if you added perhaps two other meds, you would have a great deal of bases covered if one of your birds got ill. I would add some TMS (also known as Divet or Bird-Sulfa, this is trimethoprim/sulfa) this is a good med to treat for coccidiosis and quite good for GI infections and female reproductive infections, plus a drug of choice for young young birds who are too young to be given Baytril, as well and Nystatin (Medistatin), in the event any of your birds comes up with a case of "sour crop" at anytime. 

Having these five meds right on hand, Baytril, Metronidazole, Ivermectin/Moxidectin, Bird-Sulfa and Nystatin will almost guarantee at some point in the future you will have birds that will make it by illness by being able to start immediate treatment, that otherwise might not. I have not used Wazine myself, but others on the forum have and it seems to be effective and safe. As a matter of fact I recently recommended its use to a forum member that needed a wormer ASAP, as her bird was sick and passing worms, and it did the job quite nicely. The advantage of the other two de-wormers is that they will very effective against ectoparasites as well.

Also, few other things to have around would be an inexpensive heating pad, get it at Walmart - the kind that does NOT have the automatic shut off in the switch and pick up a tube of Neosporin as well, good for topical treatment for cut and wounds that will happen, from time to time and some blood stop powder, handy for broken blood feathers.

Lastly, a few assorted syringes for feeding dispensing/measuring meds (1cc, 5cc 10cc 20cc 35cc, for the four larger sizes, get the Luer lock). Here are a few links to where I get mine. I get them from here because they sell the "O" ring silicone type syringes and they last forever. There may come a time a bird you have is too ill to self-feed and you will have to help them, so I also included a link to their crop needle page, you should pick up a #12 gage stainless feeding needle, it will last for a lifetime. I have birds alive in my coop that would not be alive without the support of a feeding tube during the worst part of their illness. Oh, you should also pick up a small container of Kaytee hand-feeding formula to keep around, it would be what you would use to feed with the crop needle. 

http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/category/1434/o-and-ring-syringes.htm
http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/product/577/stainless-steel-feeding-needles.htm

While I am at it, here are a couple of links with information on tube feeding. The one from Foy's is done with steel needles I wanted you to see how the tube goes in, although the birds in the clips are not pigeons, the principle is the same. The first clip is only about 3-4 minutes, although it says 7, so don't worry something is wrong, make sure you look at both Youtube clips. You can bookmark some of this for future reference.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/health.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483708&postcount=53

Hope some of this helps,

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

karyn,
To save money (obama's economy is tough) here is what I can do. The wazine they sell locally..I will use that plus the Diatomacious Earth that their feed is already dusted with should cover me for worms. For external parasites I bought a dust that is safe for animals that kills over 60 insects it is called 5% Carbaryl Garden and Pet Dust..4lbs for $5.50

The syringes they sell locally also and they are pretty inexpensive..I have some still from worming puppies with panacur and they do last a long time.

I am running this by you to see what you think..please don't misinterpret my intentions..just working within my budget. 

The Baytril you said could be substituted with a sulfa based anti-biotic..I can buy sulfa based poultry antibiotics at the feed store also. 
I have Berimax (2 bottles) in case of "sour crop" or cochi..I believe this the best product for those type of infections.

The crop needle..I watched a video http://www.pigeontv.com/public/department64.cfm (second video from the top) Showing the use of a piece of airline tubing for getting the feed to the back of the throat and into the crop. An inexpensive solution possibly. 

The hand feed formula I have read of people using egg whites pureed with water. I was thinking of mixing the egg whites with Kefir (sold fresh at Publix grocery store) for the added pro biotic effect. 

What do you think of my "budget solution"? If anything I suggested is wrong and will not work let me know and I will pony up for the supply house products.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

No problem, I fully agree, this certainly is a tough an economy as there has ever been in my lifetime. Anyway, here are my comments:


karyn,
To save money (obama's economy is tough) here is what I can do. The wazine they sell locally..I will use that plus the Diatomacious Earth that their feed is already dusted with should cover me for worms. For external parasites I bought a dust that is safe for animals that kills over 60 insects it is called 5% Carbaryl Garden and Pet Dust..4lbs for $5.50

*Here is a link to some discussion on diatomaceous earth in an old thread (like I said a wealth of knowledge here, just use the search tab to search for key words topics you are interested in) stating the pros and cons.: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/diatomaceous-earth-as-wormer-25070.html You should be fine with the Wazine, just follow directions closely and with the Carbaryl dust, get a sock or small cloth to cover their head so they don't inhale it or get any into their eyes and you should be good.* 


The syringes they sell locally also and they are pretty inexpensive..I have some still from worming puppies with panacur and they do last a long time.

*OK, sounds good, you will need a few large ones around as well, see what you can locate.*

I am running this by you to see what you think..please don't misinterpret my intentions..just working within my budget. The Baytril you said could be substituted with a sulfa based anti-biotic..I can buy sulfa based poultry antibiotics at the feed store also. 

*Yes, something like Sulmet or Albon could stand in for the TMS, not quite as good, but you should be just fine with either.*

I have Berimax (2 bottles) in case of "sour crop" or cochi..I believe this the best product for those type of infections.

*OK, sounds good, Berimax sounds like it would work well in a case of sour crop. Not sure about it for cocci, the sulfa drugs will handle cocci well though*

The crop needle..I watched a video http://www.pigeontv.com/public/department64.cfm (second video from the top) Showing the use of a piece of airline tubing for getting the feed to the back of the throat and into the crop. An inexpensive solution possibly.

*Yes, a good cheap solution and should work well enough, I used to use soft tubing, but moved to SS needles, as I found them easier to work with.*

The hand feed formula I have read of people using egg whites pureed with water. I was thinking of mixing the egg whites with Kefir (sold fresh at Publix grocery store) for the added pro biotic effect. 

*This the one thing that I would ask you to stick to what we know works here on the forum. I would get the smallest size of Kaytee you can (for budget) and not use something "put together". Kaytee has certainly saved many lives here over the years. For now you could just locate where you could buy some in your area, to save time later, as most really ill birds start with some good flushing with hydration fluids to start, which should give you time to go out and pick some Kaytee up on short notice.*

Hope this helps,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Any home medical supply store, will have Syringes and good kinds of Catheters ( for Tube Feeding ) and these are inexpensive...like 60 or 80 cents each.


Get plain tip, 10 mL Syringes

Get No. 8 French, peciatric, urinary catheters, 'clear silicone'...( you will only use the socket end, which fits right onto the Syringe tip, and, cut to length as needed, from there).


You can make very good Formula at home, if you have a small electric Coffee Grinder.

If you do not have one, you can get one at any Thrift Store for a couple bucks.

I can tell you what ingredients to use.


Heating Pads and Towels, likewise, "Thrift Stores".



Phil
Lv


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> JAxTecH, here are a couple of links to a few good books on pigeon care. In the first link, once the site comes up, you will have to click on products (in the side bar) then click "Books" on the page you land on. Although, I do not have this particular book, I have heard good things about it. In the second link, I have both of the books by Dr. Talaber and found them insightful and useful (one his books is also offered for sale on Dr. Walker's site).
> 
> http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/
> http://www.pigeonbooks.com/index.php?l=en
> ...


I would like to get this book Pigeons and their Economical Health Care it is on the pigeon books website and it shows the price in Euro's..Did you order your copy direct or is there another outlet that sells his books? I am leary about ordering overseas with my credit card..where did you get your copy? 

Edit:Never mind I found it.I also came across these http://highpointpigeonsupplies.net/-strse-271/TUBE-WITH-SYRINGE-dsh-12ml/Detail.bok neat little deal already put together and won't hurt the birds


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I ordered both books directly from the site pigeonbooks.com, with no problems, they give you the option to use either credit card or PayPal and the site is a secure site. The syringes you found look fine, but the one issue is the syringe with the flexible 1 1/2" tube is generally used by fanciers to give a quick drink of fluids to a bird, and not really meant for feeding, as you would want a longer tube attached 5-6" to make sure the tube is well down into the crop for this. It looks like the tube can be taken off and replaced so you could pick up some flexible tubing, either a catheter or plain silicone tubing at a medical supply store, or many pet stores and even building supply stores (Lowe's, HD) carry different sizes of tubing. You will need to use a little heat from a match/lighter or stove to very carefully take the sharp "edge" off the the insertion end (careful it just takes a second), you want to "blunt" the edge so it does nit scrape or irritate when inserting, also you want to cut the insertion end on a slight angle to ease passage, so cut on an angle and blunt edge. 

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I saw on their website pigeonbooks.com they allow for the currency conversion. I am going to order "Pigeons and their Economical Health Care" today. Thank you for the advice. 

I actually ordered the book from Jedds...there was nothing "economical" about it..but then again I still have $150 college text books so its all relative.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I received my book by Dr. Zsolt Talaber Pigeons and their Economical Health Care yesterday..a real eye opener for me was the the use of "off label" medications. 

A useful example I discovered after talking to a old timer at the feed store is Ivermectin. If you buy heart guard for large breed dogs you could pay $65 for 3 months supply..Heartguard generic name is Ivermectin..This is where common sense and *good math skills* pay off..you can buy a tube of Ivermectin paste that will treat a 1250lb horse for $5.50. If your dog weighs 60lbs that one tube can last over a year and a half. Granted you have to be smart on your measurements or you could kill your pet.

I haven't finished reading the book yet but this book is golden. I know this example is in the book the use of Amoxicillian labeled for fish is commonly used for pigeons..Also Red Cell a vitamin-iron supplement labeled for horses is commonly used. 

My yb with the swollen leg I was told (swollen leg/legs) is Paratyphoid..the droppings seem firm or normal and I haven't noticed any unusual characteristics about this bird that I can say for sure he is ill. He walks and eats and fights for his perch just like the other birds. The leg is slightly larger then the other no where near as bad as before..the leg band "dangles" on his leg..it spins freely. Is this something that will be unnoticeable when he gets older or would you say this bird is "scarred" with a swollen ankle for life? This is a young bird so if there is something that can be done now let me know.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi jAx,



Who told you this? ( Leg condition is an expression of paratyphoid? )


( It might well be, but, just wondering who made the determination, or how...)



Phil
Lv


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I was talking to a club member and I explained the yb had a swollen leg and he said Salmonella..its Paratyphoid and I asked what makes you say that and he said a swollen limb like a wing or a foot is a sign. This guy grew up with pigeons he's dad raced birds and he was raised flying pigeons...so he literally has a lifetime of experience and he is older then me. My only question about this snap diagnoses was there no other symptoms that I can see...true the pigeons poop is green with white caps but its not watery or runny (does these mean he needs a fecal exam to be certain?) also the bird seems alert and sharp..his throat is nice and pink, eyes are clear and I haven't found any respiratory issues. If the bird had respiratory problem wouldn't the wattle be wet? or the eyes be watery?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

JAxTecH, paratyphoid can take a number of forms in our birds. It can up residence in the joints, articular, most common wing and leg, causing joint swelling, or in the GI tract, intestinal, causing terrible looking droppings, or sometimes it can be in the brain, cerebral, causing neurological symptoms, it could even be a combination of all of these or could even be a silent carrier case, latent, where they show no outward symptoms (asymptomatic), but could infect other birds in a loft.

If your bird happened to have the articular form, your bird may have perfectly healthy looking droppings, as the bacteria is lodged in the joints, not the intestinal tract and respiratory issues are not part of the panel of symptoms salmonella usually presents, but a bird could get co-infections in a weaken state allowing bacteria that do cause respiratory issues to take hold. So healthy droppings and no respiratory issues does not preclude your bird from having paratyphoid.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

There's a lot to learn about Paratyphoid.

I have not had much experience with it to have much of a feel for the various things it can do.


But, I think one would usually elect a fairly long period of Medication if treating it ( rather than say, a Week).


Swollen Joints of the Leg, or Swollen Leg, when I see those things, they have been from injury, rather than from Paratyphoid.


But, I have one now who may well have Paratyphoid...so, we'll see how that goes.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> JAxTecH, paratyphoid can take a number of forms in our birds. It can up residence in the joints, articular, most common wing and leg, causing joint swelling, or in the GI tract, intestinal, causing terrible looking droppings, or sometimes it can be in the brain, cerebral, causing neurological symptoms, it could even be a combination of all of these or could even be a silent carrier case, latent, where they show no outward symptoms (asymptomatic), but could infect other birds in a loft.
> 
> If your bird happened to have the articular form, your bird may have perfectly healthy looking droppings, as the bacteria is lodged in the joints, not the intestinal tract and respiratory issues are not part of the panel of symptoms salmonella usually presents, but a bird could get co-infections in a weaken state allowing bacteria that do cause respiratory issues to take hold. So healthy droppings and no respiratory issues does not preclude your bird from having paratyphoid.
> 
> Karyn


The Supply houses I have checked are currently out of stock of the Paratyphoid Vaccine..but I can get the PMV-1 vaccine now. If this yb is a carrier but has not succumbed to this disease...will vaccination with the killed virus strain help or make him worse?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

JAxTecH, Paratyphoid Vaccine is meant to be given to a bird(s) who is/are not infected with Paratyphoid to *prevent* them contracting this infection, it will not cure a bird with an active infection in any of the forms I previously mentioned it may take, including the latent carrier state (PMV-1 vaccine of course will have no effect on Paratyphoid).

As I mentioned in one of my first posts to this thread, the recommended treatment for Paratyphoid is Baytril and the recommended course of treatment to clear a carrier state is 10-12 days, but I would treat myself for 14 days.

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Dobato ..Remind me again how I would know for certain if this bird has Paratyphoid? I put a number band on him today and his feathers look fine..he feels strong in the hand..his perch droppings look normal..he was a bugger to catch inside my flight pen..if it was not for this leg with the twisted looking ankle being larger then the other..I would say he is fine. If he does not have Paratyphoid and I treat him will hurt him? (just in case he is a carrier) or is it time for the fecal exam to be 100% sure before administering the Baytril?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

JAxTecH, there are a number of tests that can be run, by different methods. Sometimes when a bird is infected it can put out low levels of salmonella antibodies, which make it hard sometimes to detect with tests that are not really sensitive. The most sensitive test would be a MAG test (microantiglobulin) followed by an ELISA test (Enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay) speak to your vet about these tests. I would consider doing a fecal test to be unreliable, especially since, in your bird, the form the Paratyphoid has taken would be articular and not intestinal.

I have used Baytril for many years and never had a problem with administering it to my birds. IMHO, running a course of Baytril for 12-14 days should not be an issue, but as always, best to speak to your vet about all of this.

Karyn


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