# Bleach for birds???



## rackerman

*This question, the old timers may be able to answer? I have two friends that put, I believe a teaspoon of bleach to a gallon of water, they says it kills everything and their birds have never been sick, never lost a bird from it and all their birds are very healthy. They also stated that bleach is better than probotics. These are guys that have been raising pigeons for over 25 years. Does anyone use bleach or know someone like that who uses bleach??? I would like to get all the input I can to this question.*


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## doveone52

I've read about this controversial topic before. The general consensus seems to be a NO!


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## NYBOY

Don't know about birds, but alot of old time dog breeders add a drop of bleach to dogs water.


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## sreeshs

Bleach can kill both the good and bad bacteria, so it cannot be better than probiotics.


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## soymi69

sreeshs said:


> Bleach can kill both the good and bad bacteria, so it cannot be better than probiotics.


I agree I have read an article in the Racing Pigeon digest about the use of bleach. Bleach raise the PH level of the water therefore it harbor the bacteria causing Paratyphoid. I rather use apple cider vinegar twice a week than using bleach also why would you add bleach if the water we drink already have enough chlorine to kill bacteria. Bleach is a disinfectant would you add a tspn of bleach in your water if you think it is safe. I think if you look at the label it it also stated there on what to do if you happen to swallow bleach so bleach is poison and will hurt your birds later on. Probiotic still is a good item to give to birds.


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## rackerman

What if you have well water, no bleach in that?


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## rackerman

soymi69 said:


> I agree I have read an article in the Racing Pigeon digest about the use of bleach. Bleach raise the PH level of the water therefore it harbor the bacteria causing Paratyphoid. I rather use apple cider vinegar twice a week than using bleach also why would you add bleach if the water we drink already have enough chlorine to kill bacteria. Bleach is a disinfectant would you add a tspn of bleach in your water if you think it is safe. I think if you look at the label it it also stated there on what to do if you happen to swallow bleach so bleach is poison and will hurt your birds later on. Probiotic still is a good item to give to birds.


Sorry, forgot to Quote this message. What if you have well water, no bleach in that?


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## sreeshs

rackerman said:


> Sorry, forgot to Quote this message. What if you have well water, no bleach in that?


Sorry, may be the systems are different country to country, I don't understand how well water can contain bleach ?

I have well for harvesting ground water at my home, its pumped to the overhead tank for daily usage purpose and for drinking it comes through a water purifier, so bleach doesn't come into picture.


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## spirit wings

use it to clean with not to ingest, better safe than sorry, use ACV in the water and or nolvassan, foy's sells it.


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## soymi69

rackerman said:


> Sorry, forgot to Quote this message. What if you have well water, no bleach in that?


One of the great pigeon flyer who owns Fairway loft uses well water which I heard is good to give to birds, so I wouldn't add any bleach in it, go for the ACV and probiotic it will benefit your birds more. Another thing to remember is are your birds in any waygetting sick with your well water? If not then why change your habit? If your birds are healthy with your well water then you are doing everything right and giving your birds the best that they need. I only use bleach to clean the waterer, plastic feeder, and nest bowls and I make sure I rinse them thoroughly, I don't even use it to disinfect the loft because of the high PH content. So I used ACV to spray the loft i might try the Nolvasan one day since I been hearing good things about it.


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## Matt Bell

I do know old timers that use bleach in the water, they kick butt in the races. The one thing that I was told by them is that they won't give their birds anything they wouldn't drink themselves, so I asked about the bleach thing and to prove a point they drank a glass of water out of their birds waters, that was good enough for me. Now, I think the key is to not over due it, 1 teaspoon per gallon max.


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## pattersonk2002

*well water*



sreeshs said:


> Sorry, may be the systems are different country to country, I don't understand how well water can contain bleach ?
> 
> I have well for harvesting ground water at my home, its pumped to the overhead tank for daily usage purpose and for drinking it comes through a water purifier, so bleach doesn't come into picture.


Russ is not saying there is bleach in his well water, what he is saying that almost all city water going to homes in major cities has bleach added to it to control bacteria. Whether people realize it or not they give there birds bleach every day in different amount depending on how the water supply tested for that day. When cities do work on water lines huge amounts of bleach are added to combat possible high levels of bacteria that could have gotten into the lines. 

People also use chlorine tablets to purify wells after work is done on them and since well water normally does not have bleach in it why is it a bad idea to make sure your well water is purified for your birds before using it. I use ACV but I also add 1/2 teaspoon of bleach to every gallon of well water I give my birds. I have been doing this for many years and I contribute the good health of my birds to it. >Kevin


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## sreeshs

pattersonk2002 said:


> Russ is not saying there is bleach in his well water, what he is saying that almost all city water going to homes in major cities has bleach added to it to control bacteria. Whether people realize it or not they give there birds bleach every day in different amount depending on how the water supply tested for that day. When cities do work on water lines huge amounts of bleach are added to combat possible high levels of bacteria that could have gotten into the lines.
> 
> People also use chlorine tablets to purify wells after work is done on them and since well water normally does not have bleach in it why is it a bad idea to make sure your well water is purified for your birds before using it. I use ACV but I also add 1/2 teaspoon of bleach to every gallon of well water I give my birds. I have been doing this for many years and I contribute the good health of my birds to it. >Kevin


Thanks I get it now, its similar to the water which the municipality supplies here, which they chlorinate before distribution.


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## soymi69

Well, being in the NAVY for 19 yrs, I do know one thing that will happen if your water has too much chlorine in it. You see in the ship we make our own fresh water from the ocean and when we do pull in a country that the water is filthy we super chlorinate our water and guess what happen to the crew of the ship because we don't have a choice but to drink the water we are making? Well the result was bad signs of acid reflux and constant diarrhea from some of the crew and the first thing we do after we left the country is to dump all the water and make a new batch of fresh clean water with proper chlorine levels. Imagine giving this to your birds on a daily basis.


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## spirit wings

bleach should not be added as an suppliment, just rinse your drinker with bleach water and fill it back up.. that is the use it was meant to be used for.. stay with probiotics for a suppliment to help your birds. Im afraid your friends may not know what probiotics are.


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## MaryOfExeter

I would never add chlorine to their water, just to wash it, rinse, and refill with clean water. If you're using the city's water, you already have enough chlorine in your water, IMO. If you're on a well like me, then you've got the best water  I hate the taste of city water, and I don't expect my birds to like it any more than me. Chlorine can also bond to other things in the water to create more harmful chemicals. That's why if you do put it in the water, do NOT add anything else.
I would much rather use ACV. It has the same purpose, but with added benefits. ACV is kind of strange in how it acts. It makes the digestive tract more acidic because it is an acid. That discourages the growth of bad bacteria like salmonella. However, it incourages the growth of good gut bacteria that protects the birds from getting sick. ACV also raises the pH of the body. Because it is an acid, the body must raise it's pH level to balance it. Alkaline blood is what kills off a lot of diseases, including cancer - they just can't live in an environment like that.

Having that said, it would seem bleach would do the opposite because it is a base to start with. I don't if it would work the opposite for a fact, but I do know the body doesn't discriminate when it comes to balancing its pH.


Anyways, about the probiotics, NOTHING replaces that. Good bacteria is a must for proper digestion and good health. A lot of problems in pigeons start in that area, like coccidiosis and e. coli. Both are natural and in the body all the time, but when the birds become stressed, that's when they can take over and cause problems. Probiotics can help you get over stress, especially when you're following up antibiotics because those kill all bacteria, not just the bad stuff (so actually, medicating can make birds sick...again).


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## Pigeon0446

Bleach can be used and is used by alot of pigeon flyers. I used to think my dad was crazy when he put bleach in the drinking water. I told him it wasn't good for them but he called up Clorox and they sent him some info on how many squab farms use it in thier drinking water to keep down on deseases that are transmitted thru the water. My dad used to use it all the time I only use it when I add new birds from other lofts into my coop so just incase they have anything atleast they won't transmit it thru the drinking water.


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## rackerman

Pigeon0446 said:


> Bleach can be used and is used by alot of pigeon flyers. I used to think my dad was crazy when he put bleach in the drinking water. I told him it wasn't good for them but he called up Clorox and they sent him some info on how many squab farms use it in thier drinking water to keep down on deseases that are transmitted thru the water. My dad used to use it all the time I only use it when I add new birds from other lofts into my coop so just incase they have anything atleast they won't transmit it thru the drinking water.


How much did has' use and how often. I have heard the same as you said too...


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## rackerman

*Hoping for more feed back on this!! Please, old timers reply!!*


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## Jay3

Bleach will kill all bacteria. That means that it will kill the bad bacteria, and also the good bacteria in their gut that they need. Actually, when you give them probiotics, you should use aged water to take the chlorine out of it. Because the chlorine will kill the probiotics. Even if you do that, then the next day give them chlorinated water, I would imagine that the chlorine in the water has to kill the good gut bacteria that you gave them the day before. ACV puts the acid in their gut that the bad bacteria doesn't like. Why would you give them bleach when you can just use ACV a few times a week?


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## rackerman

Jay3 said:


> Bleach will kill all bacteria. That means that it will kill the bad bacteria, and also the good bacteria in their gut that they need. Actually, when you give them probiotics, you should use aged water to take the chlorine out of it. Because the chlorine will kill the probiotics. Even if you do that, then the next day give them chlorinated water, I would imagine that the chlorine in the water has to kill the good gut bacteria that you gave them the day before. ACV puts the acid in their gut that the bad bacteria doesn't like. Why would you give them bleach when you can just use ACV a few times a week?


How many times a week (MAX) can you give probotics & ACV??


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## soymi69

rackerman said:


> How many times a week (MAX) can you give probotics & ACV??


I give my birds probiotic (Primalac) every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, ACV is on Tuesday and Thursday, Saturday and Sunday are regular city water.


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## spirit wings

OK, just to put this out there.. go fill a few empty gallon jugs with pool water and drink it for a week, being your only water supply, and see how you feel...


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## Jay3

rackerman said:


> How many times a week (MAX) can you give probotics & ACV??


Everyone does it differently. I give ACV a couple days a week, and the days I give it are normally Monday and Friday. Sometimes they bathe during the week, but they always bathe on the weekends. Of course they drink the bath water, which isn't so clean after the first few birds have been in it, so I figure giving the ACV to give their gut an acid environment which the bad bacteria don't like, is better done just before and after the weekend. But that's just me. I give probiotics on Wednesday with vitamins. Tuesday and Thursday, clear water, and on the weekends clear water, as half the time they will drink the bath water anyway. LOL. If they have been on antibiotics, or been stressed, then they would get the probiotics on Tues and Thurs. also. Or if their poops are looking a little funky. Weekends, I don't normally add anything to the water, as I figure that will just make them drink the bath water more. That's the way I do it, but everyone does it in a different way, according to their beliefs and situations. Maybe others will come in and share their routines.
ACV and probiotics help, but they are not a cure all. And more important is keeping a clean loft, good feed, clean water, changed at least daily, and keeping rodents and insects out that can spread salmonella to your birds, out of your loft and aviary.


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## pattersonk2002

*pool water*



spirit wings said:


> OK, just to put this out there.. go fill a few empty gallon jugs with pool water and drink it for a week, being your only water supply, and see how you feel...


Anybody that lives in a large city does just that on a daily basis. I can go to most any large city and smell more clorine in there water then I add to my birds drinking water. I will fill a gallon jug with my well water and add 1/2 teaspoon of bleach and drink it any day of the week and not get what I would by drinking Detroits water and we all know how my pigeon fanciers there are in Detroit. 
On another note, why would you let your kids swim in a pool day after day when you know that they are going to swollow the water, sheesh's I must have missed the news reports on all those kids getting sick from there parents putting clorine in there pool water after the city already did, Dang I hope my ferals don't drink from my pool. >Kevin


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## Jay3

Well, bleach kills bacteria. So if you are using it to kill the bad bacteria, then you should be aware that it is also killing the good bacteria that is there to protect your birds. Now, how is that helpful?


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## re lee

People have used the 1 teaspoon of bleach to a gallon for there birds for yearsAND NO problems I have used it in the past I used bleach to clean the waters As it does kill germs that can get your birds sick. well water needs checked from time to time or people get sick. Bleach in water will also evaporate in a sahort time. Sure ACV works and helps But bleach also helps for those that do choose to use it. THE ACV thing has not been used all that many yearsin the USA where pigeons have been kept for over a hundred years. Swiming pools you put a much much larger dose to make them safe. up to 5.0 parts. And years ago that was thought to blind and kill people when the use was .4 and 5.0 was super clorianting The water. You can add bleach and hold the water a half day or full day and NO bleach would be left. So I guess its really personal use BUT not a high risk for the birds. AND yes I would drink water that had bleach at a right level in it.


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## Jay3

Regardless, it still kills both the good and bad bacteria. So while you are killing the bad bacteria, you are also killing the good bacteria in your birds gut. But I guess that is also a personal choice. Just seems kinda counter-productive to me.


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## re lee

Jay3 said:


> Regardless, it still kills both the good and bad bacteria. So while you are killing the bad bacteria, you are also killing the good bacteria in your birds gut. But I guess that is also a personal choice. Just seems kinda counter-productive to me.


It yet has to be proved As for years people did use bleach AND the birds stayed healthy. I am not sure But as more info came from the race people in belgium and such ACV and other things like garlic came to more use. BOOKS even used to recommend The use of bleach. Consider people drink more then birds do and the chlorine in the water has not hurt them yet I gues and some one will say it does But wheres the proof. I am not saying you have to use bleach and with otrher things known now a person could use something else. BUT I am saying if you dont not clean your waters with bleach at least 1 time weekly You are waiting for sickness to hit your loft. I know people today that still use bleach and they have birds that many would want. Why do we jump to force our idea on others just because some one said this and that When It could have been said while bleach can be used as it has for years ACV garlic ect can serve a better purpose today. I know I am getting out dated And people learn new things But I do Know a thing or two about pigeons And they are a tough bird when kept right.


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## SYHANN

i definitely agree with soymi69,he's right! c",)


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## pdpbison

All Municipal Water already has Chlorine and Flouride in it...and, adding Bleach then adds a great deal more Chlorine.


Superficially, conventional Chlorine Bleach is a good disinfectant, when used for some things, and, it can disinfect Water.

Oxine would be greatly better though.


Regardless, Chlorine is implicated if not worse, in the role of insulting any Animal's system, and in creating a chronic inflamitory conditions within the Cardio Vasular system, leading to arterial schlorotic disease and associated problems, and a shorter Life.

So called 'Old Timers' often lie or BS or exhagerate for many reasons...whatever subject they are involved in.


I have seen 'old timers' lie when giving 'advice' or when sharing insider info, in order to compromise the results of others who will either compete with them, or, just for the devil of it...as just one more way of 'winning'.

There is no subject where I would blindly accept anything from any 'old timer' who was competeing with others for vanity, politics, money or glamor or anything else.


ACV in Water now and then, Good Water to begin with ( ie, not 'tap water' )...daily disinfecting and scrubbing of Common Waterers, good hygene, are always a good bet.


I do not believe anyone who claimes they never had a sick Bird.

The old Cat Turds typically cull any Birds who are not tip top and winning anyway.


Eeeeeesh...


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## rbflight

*Bleach in the water*

*Dr. Marx who is one of the most knowledgable vets on pigeons says that a teaspoon to a gallon of water once a week will not hurt the birds. It kills bacteria in the bird. 
I have been doing this for over 30 years and have NEVER lost a bird. My birds are in top shape always and my show record stands for itself.
Remember too much of anything is no good. so don't think by doubling up on the dose that you are helping. you will hurt them by putting too much in there. AND NO METAL WATERERS!
[email protected] *


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## Jay3

re lee said:


> *It yet has to be proved As for years people did use bleach AND the birds stayed healthy.* I am not sure But as more info came from the race people in belgium and such ACV and other things like garlic came to more use. BOOKS even used to recommend The use of bleach. Consider people drink more then birds do and the chlorine in the water has not hurt them yet I gues and some one will say it does But wheres the proof. I am not saying you have to use bleach and with otrher things known now a person could use something else. BUT I am saying if you dont not clean your waters with bleach at least 1 time weekly You are waiting for sickness to hit your loft. I know people today that still use bleach and they have birds that many would want. Why do we jump to force our idea on others just because some one said this and that When It could have been said while bleach can be used as it has for years ACV garlic ect can serve a better purpose today. I know I am getting out dated And people learn new things But I do Know a thing or two about pigeons And they are a tough bird when kept right.



*All I'm saying is that it kills bacteria. Both good and bad. And that has been proven. *So how can you possibly expect it to kill the bad bacteria, without killing the good bacteria? Don't know how else to explain it, so I guess I'll stop trying. Everyone is going to do what they think is best anyway.


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## rbflight

*Bleach*

*EXACTLY, if it works for you then keep to your program . There is no perfect right or wrong here. i just know what I have done for 30 years and the birds look fly and show great. It has to be the water!*


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## re lee

Jay3 said:


> *All I'm saying is that it kills bacteria. Both good and bad. And that has been proven. *So how can you possibly expect it to kill the bad bacteria, without killing the good bacteria? Don't know how else to explain it, so I guess I'll stop trying. Everyone is going to do what they think is best anyway.


But remember the digestion changes things And its just a small amount Not going to harm the gut bacteria. Or there would have been something noticed many years ago And It would have been stopped Because it was people who activly raised pigeons for race and show That helped lead to the different ideas of pigeon keeping and meds to use. So they would have sure stopped if the birds were put in a risk. And the help is in it making the water safer to drink Thats all. as I said Other things can be used But so can bleach if chosen. But you use as you do and recommend as you do but remember those that do as they do and see results can do as they do i lkie steaks But i will not try to make you eat one if you do not.


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## re lee

pdpbison said:


> All Municipal Water already has Chlorine and Flouride in it...and, adding Bleach then adds a great deal more Chlorine.
> 
> 
> Superficially, conventional Chlorine Bleach is a good disinfectant, when used for some things, and, it can disinfect Water.
> 
> Oxine would be greatly better though.
> 
> 
> Regardless, Chlorine is implicated if not worse, in the role of insulting any Animal's system, and in creating a chronic inflamitory conditions within the Cardio Vasular system, leading to arterial schlorotic disease and associated problems, and a shorter Life.
> 
> So called 'Old Timers' often lie or BS or exhagerate for many reasons...whatever subject they are involved in.
> 
> 
> I have seen 'old timers' lie when giving 'advice' or when sharing insider info, in order to compromise the results of others who will either compete with them, or, just for the devil of it...as just one more way of 'winning'.
> 
> There is no subject where I would blindly accept anything from any 'old timer' who was competeing with others for vanity, politics, money or glamor or anything else.
> 
> 
> ACV in Water now and then, Good Water to begin with ( ie, not 'tap water' )...daily disinfecting and scrubbing of Common Waterers, good hygene, are always a good bet.
> 
> 
> I do not believe anyone who claimes they never had a sick Bird.
> 
> The old Cat Turds typically cull any Birds who are not tip top and winning anyway.
> 
> 
> Eeeeeesh...


If it was not for OLD TIMERS people like you or many Would not know as much about pigeons. And calling old timers CAT TURDS is very rude And you should feel bad because this hobby owes so much to the people that spent there lifetime raising and keeping pigeons find cures finding way to keep the birds healthy. finding ways to develop new strains/ breeds. developing the known breeds. Bringing the hobby to public view promoting the pigeon as a great hobby Many more reasons to respect the old timers. i owe all I know to those that came before me and taught me what they could. And if i ever helped any one to learn something about pigeons I was glad to have been able to. Perhaps you should find a person you can learn from to understand OLD allways teaches NEW. AS NEW can never learn from NEW


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## MaryOfExeter

rackerman said:


> How many times a week (MAX) can you give probotics & ACV??


Everyday is the max. It won't hurt them. People around here have used vinegar forever and a day, and most of them put it in the water all week. The probiotics especially cannot be overdone.


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## rackerman

rbflight said:


> *Dr. Marx who is one of the most knowledgable vets on pigeons says that a teaspoon to a gallon of water once a week will not hurt the birds. It kills bacteria in the bird.
> I have been doing this for over 30 years and have NEVER lost a bird. My birds are in top shape always and my show record stands for itself.
> Remember too much of anything is no good. so don't think by doubling up on the dose that you are helping. you will hurt them by putting too much in there. AND NO METAL WATERERS!
> [email protected] *


Heres what Dr. Marx says, click on the link and check it out.
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/DrDavidMarx/chlorine.cfm


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## sreeshs

rackerman said:


> Heres what Dr. Marx says, click on the link and check it out.
> http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/DrDavidMarx/chlorine.cfm


Good read and he does mention it is his theorization and only needs some simple research to conclude the findings. 

Now I am not going to say that what he is saying is wrong, yet based on what he has mentioned let me put a theory of my own.... (forgive if it turns out to be a blunder) 

He says don't mix anything else when providing chlorine water. He also mentions the chlorine consumed by the pigeon (sure through the crop and guts while drinking) are elminated in kidneys. So what happens if those pigeons are having calcium grit ? what about all those packet feed mixtures which are given to the pigeon which has vitamins pre mixed ? Wouldn't it react with the chlorine present in the pigeon crop or gut ???

P.S: That website is copyrighted 1999 - 2007, so I presume the article came by 2007 latest (I can be wrong here), if yes, now its 2010, have any of them confirmed on the theories, I mean Dr. Marx himself.


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## velo99

The best way is to keep things relatively clean provide clean water and feed good feed. If they are healthy why medicate or add anything to the feed/water? Do you get up in the morning and take an anti biotic just because? Access to the outside,exercise and good nutrition are the key points to address. Pigeons are tough and dont require as much health manipulation as a lot of people seem to feel is neccessary.


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## spirit wings

pattersonk2002 said:


> Anybody that lives in a large city does just that on a daily basis. I can go to most any large city and smell more clorine in there water then I add to my birds drinking water. I will fill a gallon jug with my well water and add 1/2 teaspoon of bleach and drink it any day of the week and not get what I would by drinking Detroits water and we all know how my pigeon fanciers there are in Detroit.
> On another note, why would you let your kids swim in a pool day after day when you know that they are going to swollow the water, sheesh's I must have missed the news reports on all those kids getting sick from there parents putting clorine in there pool water after the city already did, Dang I hope my ferals don't drink from my pool. >Kevin


I don't have a kid, but from what I remember when I was a kid, the water did not get swollowed for long it did not make me feel so well, and did not drink it on a daily basis for my drinking water. I do not have city water either, and would use a filter if I did. bleach should not be an additive for consumption if you have clean fresh water, if you do not have clean fresh water then I see the point in using it to keep down the bad microbs.


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## spirit wings

rackerman said:


> Heres what Dr. Marx says, click on the link and check it out.
> http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/DrDavidMarx/chlorine.cfm


quote from the articleL: "Personally, I use a filter on my drinking water which removes chlorine; but my pigeons drink a lot of it with what I percieve as beneficial effects. NEVER PUT ANYTHING ELSE IN THE DRINKING WATER AT THE SAME TIME AS CHLORINE."


why would he give his birds something he would not drink himself on a daily basis, and JMO, I do not drink anyones city water either, my mother comes all the way down to my house to fill her containers with well water from my deep well.. if people do not like it then pigeons prolly would not either, unless you have microbial contamination, I just do not see the point of using a cleaner as a suppliment for health.


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## sky tx

sreeshs--If you do not agree with Dr marx and know better things to do for pigeons--
YOU are in the Wrong business. 
Stop your Guess/work-Theory-Give us "facts". And how many Pigons have you killed proving your Facts?
I have Known Dr David Marx for 25-30 years.


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## rackerman

sky tx said:


> sreeshs--If you do not agree with Dr marx and know better things to do for pigeons--
> YOU are in the Wrong business.
> Stop your Guess/work-Theory-Give us "facts". And how many Pigons have you killed proving your Facts?
> I have Known Dr David Marx for 25-30 years.


Sky tx...........whats your thoughts on using bleach??


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## sreeshs

sky tx said:


> sreeshs--If you do not agree with Dr marx and know better things to do for pigeons--
> YOU are in the Wrong business.
> Stop your Guess/work-Theory-Give us "facts". And how many Pigons have you killed proving your Facts?
> I have Known Dr David Marx for 25-30 years.


First of all, I only put a counter theory based on what he has written and did mention it was only a theorization. If he says "don't mix anything else" then what happens when it get mixed in the crop or gut ?

Second - I didn't start keeping pigeons because Dr. Marx or anybody else was there across the sea and mountain to guide and refer to. No body in this land started keeping pigeons for that sake. Not even the British rulers who helped in flourishing the hobby of pigeon keeping in India. What do you think ? That they predicted a guy called X will be born and will guide on pigeon facts ?


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## Jay3

Doesn't anybody get the idea that while it is killing the bad BACTERIA, it is also killing the good BACTERIA that is in your birds gut, and is there to protect the bird? Now if your birds are sick, then bleach in the water would stop them from spreading it to each other, as the bleach in the water would kill the bacteria, but it would also kill the good bacteria that we try to build up in our birds with the use of probiotics. I have read articles on the use of probiotics that clearly stated that chlorinated water SHOULD NOT be used when you give the probiotics, as it will kill them before your bird even gets them. Now if you put bleach in the water, it will kill the probiotics in the gut. So why bother giving them any at all? It is a double-edged sword. How is it that you see the good it does, but not the bad? If you are worried about your water having something bad in it, then boil your water for 1 minute, before giving it to your birds. If you keep your birds healthy, and in a healthy environment, with clean feed and water, then you shouldn't need to bleach out their guts to kill the bad bacteria. Take care of the others things that you should be taking care of, and this would be a mute point. Bleach isn't going to make up for not keeping a clean and safe environment, and it isn't going to make up for not keeping them as you should. It is just one more chemical that you are dumping into your birds gut that shouldn't be there. You are looking at one mans opinion here. I have seen many knowledgeable people with the opinion that bleach shouldn't be used. Wish I could remember the links.


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## Jay3

rbflight said:


> *Dr. Marx who is one of the most knowledgable vets on pigeons says that a teaspoon to a gallon of water once a week will not hurt the birds. It kills bacteria in the bird.
> I have been doing this for over 30 years and have NEVER lost a bird. My birds are in top shape always and my show record stands for itself.
> Remember too much of anything is no good. so don't think by doubling up on the dose that you are helping. you will hurt them by putting too much in there. AND NO METAL WATERERS!
> [email protected] *


Gee, isn't this the same Dr. Marx who believes that pigeons don't feel pain?


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## maniac

I am neither pro or con in this discussion however ...I see a lot of the discussion turns on the advantages of probiotics and the possibility of wiping out the benificial gut microbes using chlorine.

I have yet to see proof that probiotics can replentish _those specific gut microbes_ 

Wikipedia.

Disadvantages of probiotics

In some specific situations (such as critically ill patients) they could be harmful. In a therapeutic clinical trial conducted by the Dutch Pancreatitis Study Group, the consumption of a mixture of six probiotic bacteria, increased the death rate of patients with predicted severe acute pancreatitis.[46]

In a clinical trial conducted at the University of Western Australia, aimed at showing the effectiveness of probiotics in reducing childhood allergies, Dr Susan Prescott and her colleagues gave 178 children either a probiotic or a placebo for the first six months of their life. Those given the good bacteria were more likely to develop a sensitivity to allergens.[47]

Some hospitals have reported treating lactobacillus septicaemia which is a potentially fatal disease caused by the consumption of probiotics by people with lowered immune systems or who are already very ill.[47][48]

*There is no published evidence that probiotic supplements are able to replace the body's natural flora when these have been killed off; indeed bacterial levels in feces disappear within days when supplementation ceases.[49]*

Recent studies indicate that probiotic products such as yogurts could be a cause for obesity trends.[50] However, this is contested


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## Jay3

Okay, so lets hope that our *BIRDS* don't have any of those* HUMAN* illnesses that probiotics could only make worse. 

*NOW FOR THE BENEFITS*


Science News
Share Blog Cite
Print Email Bookmark
Probiotics Beneficial Even When Inactive, According To UCSD Study

ScienceDaily (Feb. 5, 2004) — Probiotics, the trendy "good bacteria" found to aid disorders such as Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD), allergies and even some forms of cancer, contain immune system-stimulating DNA which makes them just as effective when inactivated, as when consumed as live microorganisms in dairy products such as yogurt.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040202064023.htm


Preventing harmful bacterial growth under stress

In a study done to see the effects of stress on intestinal flora, rats that were fed probiotics had little occurrence of harmful bacteria latched onto their intestines compared to rats that were fed sterile water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic


Probiotics are essential because they dilute and displace bad bacteria like salmonella, E.coli and clostridium that make people very sick. It’s an important benefit of probiotics.

Enzymes secreted by probiotic bacteria improve digestion and nutrient utilization.
http://www.journey-with-crohns-disease.com/best-probiotics.html


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## Alamo

I put 5 or 6 drops to a gallon of water.. Every three days....I do this mostly in July/Aug when the weather is real hot and humid....I have never had a problem...If you do use bleach,make sure you rinse or let your drinkers DRY out before giving any meds,or anything else...Right now,with the YB`s,it`s ACV one day...Clear water the next day....Bleach the next...I think with only 5 or 6 drops per gallon,it`s OK to use...My dad flew pigeons for 40+ years....A few drops once or twice per week is OK....Do not over do anything...Many big time flyers wash out their drinkers with bleach,and let them dry out in the sun...They rotate drinkers..That means if you have a loft with 4 sections,you need 8 drinkers....With this method,it`s real safe,and you allways have sanitary drinkers for the birds each day.....Alamo


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## Jay3

Alamo said:


> I put 5 or 6 drops to a gallon of water.. Every three days....I do this mostly in July/Aug when the weather is real hot and humid....I have never had a problem...If you do use bleach,make sure you rinse or let your drinkers DRY out before giving any meds,or anything else...Right now,with the YB`s,it`s ACV one day...Clear water the next day....Bleach the next...I think with only 5 or 6 drops per gallon,it`s OK to use...My dad flew pigeons for 40+ years....A few drops once or twice per week is OK....Do not over do anything...Many big time flyers wash out their drinkers with bleach,and let them dry out in the sun...They rotate drinkers..That means if you have a loft with 4 sections,you need 8 drinkers....With this method,it`s real safe,and you allways have sanitary drinkers for the birds each day.....Alamo


I do like bleach to clean out the waterers. Then rinse well and let dry. This is good practice.


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## maniac

Jay3 said:


> Okay, so lets hope that our *BIRDS* don't have any of those* HUMAN* illnesses that probiotics could only make worse.


I guess Jay you are saying that sort of tongue in cheek.. I doubt that you are trying to say that that birds are some form of alien life not composed of RNA/DNA and not subject to earthly diseases.

I also doubt very much that science has studied the effects of probiotics on pigeon guts more thoroughly than mammal guts.

I just find the opinions in this thread fascinating, not very scientific but fascinating.

ps. The earth is round


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## Pawbla

rackerman said:


> Heres what Dr. Marx says, click on the link and check it out.
> http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/DrDavidMarx/chlorine.cfm


I just needed to say... *"miricle"*? WTF?


Well, that said, doesn't normal water come with chlorine in many cases? For example, if you go to Buenos Aires city or nearby areas, water TASTES like chlorine. Why add more? Wouldn't you risk going for too much chlorine?


And I think sreeshs has a point there. What does this doctor consider "anything else"? He talks about meds... but what about dietary supplements? And this is all just theories, no research done. You shouldn't take this as an absolute truth, no matter who said it. Very smart and recognized people have uttered stupid theories. 


On the other side, why use chlorine when you can just boil the water? And, even if you say it doesn't kill all the bacterias, what about pressure ovens? I guess you could put plain water on it. Most people don't have them anymore, but you could still get one. Many people use it to sterilize things for growing orchid seeds, that grow in an environment full of nutrients. If things are not sterilized correctly, fungus or bacteria take over the growing medium and ruin everything. So you can guess it does kill bacterias and fungus.


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## MaryOfExeter

I wouldn't add anything to chlorinated water, whether it be medication, or supplements. Only to fresh water.

I think I'm going to stop looking at this thread now. The ignorance is just too much.

Regardless of what anyone else says or does, I will never put chlorine in my birds' drinking water. My dad is the water/sewer director for the town, and my uncle works at the plant that gives our area the water. We're familiar with chlorine and what is actually in city water. None of us like it. I will always use probiotics (for both myself, and the birds). I will always use ACV. The two serve the same purpose, but ACV has more benefits. I want the best for my birds, therefore I'll give them the most benefits I can. End of story.


PS - There are zoonotic diseases and then there are species-specific diseases.


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## pattersonk2002

*bleach*

I am going to stay with Marie's last comment(end of story) We all could go on and on with this topic and there are pro and cons to all. I am actually writing now to thank Russ for starting this thread for me because I am on of those friends that recommended using bleach. END OF STORY, good reading though.>Kevin


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## rackerman

*Thank you everyone who responded to my thread. I see some people do and some don't, so I guess its personal preference. Yes, pattersonk did ask me to start the thread, I know he and a good friend of his do use chlorine, his friend has hundreds of birds and all are in great health, so are pattersons. I've been to both pattersonk & his friends loft, they both have beautiful birds too! So, I guess its what one wants to do.

Thank you again everyone..........*


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## Jay3

Well, an alternative, would be to add the chlorine to the water to kill the bad bacteria, then to let the water sit in an open container for 24 hours to allow the chlorine to dissipate. This way, the chlorine, which also kills the good gut bacteria would be gone from the water before the birds drink it. If the purpose of the chlorine is to kill any bad bacteria in the bird, then you need to realize that it is killing both good and bad bacterias in the birds. The good bacterias are what helps to protect the birds from the bad. I would rather work at building up the good bacterias that help to protect the birds. Guess every ones viewpoint is different.


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## pattersonk2002

*Acv*

I want to point out that I had said in one of my postings that I do use ACV and probotic. The reason I am going to restate this is because last night I was reading a little news letter and in it I found an article about ACV that just made me rethink this. The article reads as.

For centuries people have been using natural apple cider vinegar as both a food and medicine themselves and for there pets.
since 400BC, Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, and others, have used vinegar and vinegar mixed with honey, as an energizing tonic and a healing elixir. more recently, the health benefits of apple cider vinegar have been promoted by many well know authors such as Dr Jarvis, Paul C. Bragg and Patricia Bragg. Dr Jarvis, a Vermont country doctor, noted that apple cider vinegar was a respected home remedy used by many Vermonters to successfully treat a number of common ailments and nagging aches and pains. He was so impressed that he went on to write a book on his observations and experimentation with home remedies, especially ACV and it's beneficial effects on both people and farm animals.

After reading this, I just had to post it and say once again I do use ACV but with so many waterers to take care I use bleach during the week and if I have time on the weekends I will rinse and give the ACV or vitamin supplements. >Kevin


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## spirit wings

pattersonk2002 said:


> I want to point out that I had said in one of my postings that I do use ACV and probotic. The reason I am going to restate this is because last night I was reading a little news letter and in it I found an article about ACV that just made me rethink this. The article reads as.
> 
> For centuries people have been using natural apple cider vinegar as both a food and medicine themselves and for there pets.
> since 400BC, Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, and others, have used vinegar and vinegar mixed with honey, as an energizing tonic and a healing elixir. more recently, the health benefits of apple cider vinegar have been promoted by many well know authors such as Dr Jarvis, Paul C. Bragg and Patricia Bragg. Dr Jarvis, a Vermont country doctor, noted that apple cider vinegar was a respected home remedy used by many Vermonters to successfully treat a number of common ailments and nagging aches and pains. He was so impressed that he went on to write a book on his observations and experimentation with home remedies, especially ACV and it's beneficial effects on both people and farm animals.
> 
> After reading this, I just had to post it and say once again I do use ACV but with so many waterers to take care I use bleach during the week and if I have time on the weekends I will rinse and give the ACV or vitamin supplements. >Kevin


That makes sense, esp if one has alot of drinkers that hold alot of water, and those who use automatic waterers, they would have to use bleach in the system.. I use just the gallon milk jugs so the water gets replenished daily and new ones made every two weeks, so it is not important for me to use bleach as a cleaner. my choice would be not to use it as a suppliment, thats just me for all the reasons jay3 has stated. interesting bit on the ACV.


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## pattersonk2002

*Acv*

Thank You Spirit, I thought it was a very interesting article and it kinda raised my eyes when I seen it, The first thought was holy %^&* we are just having a debate on this. I will doing some research on those books and I might just start drinking it myself. >Kevin


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## Guest

all I can say is do you drink bleach or clorine at any given point  if not why make your birds do it


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## pattersonk2002

*bleach*



LokotaLoft said:


> all I can say is do you drink bleach or chlorine at any given point  if not why make your birds do it


Holy Pigeon poop Lokota, I guess you did not take the time to read the whole thread. Most all municipal water supplies add chlorine (bleach) to there systems to remove bacteria, if there has been work done on the water lines they double it, or shall I say add more as a safeguard. More people drink chlorine then I can Imagine, If chlorine would kill you I would have been gone a longggggg time ago. >Kevin


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## Jay3

I submitted the question of using bleach in the birds drinking water to 
www.pigeontv.com. This is the answer they sent me.
___________________________________________________________________________________



Jay,

Thanks for the note. I wish I could point you to the video show we recorded for PigeonTV.com. *Here are the main reasons why NOT to use bleach. As told to me by the representative from the Clorox Bleach Company.
*
1. It kills every living organism inside a pigeon's digestive tract. Even the good bacteria.
2. It burns the gut at the levels most guys use.
3. The birds HATE it, so they don't drink, and they get dehydrated. Not good for racing.
4. 16 drops in a gallon of water (1/8th of a teaspoon!) will kill even AIDS and typhoid bacteria. Most guys
will put a couple teaspoons or, God forbid, a tablespoon in a gallon of water. WAY too much. Of course, any is too much...
*5. If you add probiotics or enzymes to your water or feed, the bleach kills everything, so you're throwing your money down the
toilet.*

I am a BIG believer in the thought, if I want my birds to drink it, I should taste it myself. So, in order to show how bad bleach
is, I drank bleach water live on PigeonTV.com. The outcome was hilarious, and scary.

First, I put 16 drops into a gallon, poured a short glass, and took a sip. A strong taste of bleach in the water.
Then, I put ONE TEASPOON into the gallon, and then took another sip. I ALMOST VOMITED ON CAMERA!
One tablespoon is equal to THREE teaspoons - so imagine how bad it is if one tsp made me almost puke.....

Do you think your birds like to drink that?


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## pattersonk2002

*drinking bleach*



Jay3 said:


> I submitted the question of using bleach in the birds drinking water to
> www.pigeontv.com. This is the answer they sent me.
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> Jay,
> 
> Thanks for the note. I wish I could point you to the video show we recorded for PigeonTV.com. *Here are the main reasons why NOT to use bleach. As told to me by the representative from the Clorox Bleach Company.
> *
> 1. It kills every living organism inside a pigeon's digestive tract. Even the good bacteria.
> 2. It burns the gut at the levels most guys use.
> 3. The birds HATE it, so they don't drink, and they get dehydrated. Not good for racing.
> 4. 16 drops in a gallon of water (1/8th of a teaspoon!) will kill even AIDS and typhoid bacteria. Most guys
> will put a couple teaspoons or, God forbid, a tablespoon in a gallon of water. WAY too much. Of course, any is too much...
> *5. If you add probiotics or enzymes to your water or feed, the bleach kills everything, so you're throwing your money down the
> toilet.*
> 
> I am a BIG believer in the thought, if I want my birds to drink it, I should taste it myself. So, in order to show how bad bleach
> is, I drank bleach water live on PigeonTV.com. The outcome was hilarious, and scary.
> 
> First, I put 16 drops into a gallon, poured a short glass, and took a sip. A strong taste of bleach in the water.
> Then, I put ONE TEASPOON into the gallon, and then took another sip. I ALMOST VOMITED ON CAMERA!
> One tablespoon is equal to THREE teaspoons - so imagine how bad it is if one tsp made me almost puke.....
> 
> Do you think your birds like to drink that?


 OK, for the sake of his exsperement, I just added my normal amount (aprox 1ml/gal) 1 teaspoon (approx) and drank a 6 oz. glass, I am was fine and once again I have tasted more in city water. So, to double his dare I added 3 ml/gal and again drank a 6 oz glass, now that tasted like the city water I am refering to so all you people who live in a large city better start buying bottled water for your birds, I don't think you need it since you are still alive. Oh ya, I did not puke and I feel fine, I will let you know in the morning if it affected anything else but I highly doubt it. >Kevin


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## Jay3

pattersonk2002 said:


> OK, for the sake of his exsperement, I just added my normal amount (aprox 1ml/gal) 1 teaspoon (approx) and drank a 6 oz. glass, I am was fine and once again I have tasted more in city water. So, to double his dare I added 3 ml/gal and again drank a 6 oz glass, now that tasted like the city water I am refering to so all you people who live in a large city better start buying bottled water for your birds, I don't think you need it since you are still alive. Oh ya, I did not puke and I feel fine, I will let you know in the morning if it affected anything else but I highly doubt it. >Kevin


I have no idea why you are disputing whether or not it will kill you. Did anybody say that it would? All I am saying, which is also what the Clorox bleach company states, is that it kills bacteria, good and bad. That means that it also kills the good gut bacteria that protect your birds. And no, you wouldn't have to switch to bottled water to avoid giving your birds chlorinated water. If you fill a bottle, and then let it sit for 24 hours, all the chlorine is removed. You seem to be avoiding that issue, while defending the fact that it won't kill anybody. Think we're having two different conversations here.


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## maniac

Pattersonk

Popular opinion on this subject seems to be that you have effectively killed off both your good and bad gut bacteria. I guess we will have to await a report on the condition of your stools. I am no doctor but I would assume that you will either be terribly constipated or squirting like crazy ...


with bated breath I wait .....


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## Pawbla

MaryOfExeter said:


> I wouldn't add anything to chlorinated water, whether it be medication, or supplements. Only to fresh water.


Some places don't have access to truly fresh water :x. Most cities add chlorine to the water, so unless you buy bottled water, you -have- to give your birds cholrinated water. Where I live, if they add chlorine, I can't tell.


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## Jay3

Pawbla said:


> Some places don't have access to truly fresh water :x. *Most cities add chlorine to the water, so unless you buy bottled water, you -have- to give your birds cholrinated water.* Where I live, if they add chlorine, I can't tell.



No you don't. Fill a container with chlorinated water. Leave it open, just sitting for 24 hours. The Chlorine will leave the water. AFTER 24 HOURS THERE IS NO MORE CLORINE IN THE WATER. Then you give it to your birds.


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## Pawbla

Eek. It tastes horrible then, poor birds .


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## ValencianFigs

I am no expert on this, but I think anything organic would be good. so I think apple cider vinegar added would be good for them. I use this for my doves like once every month. I would buy it from an organic store though


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## Jay3

Pawbla said:


> Eek. It tastes horrible then, poor birds .


What tastes horrible?


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## Pawbla

Have you ever left a glass of water overnight? . It was a joke though.


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## ValencianFigs

Lol, I hate water from last night


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## chayi

Im kinda new to the bird racing thing but i wanted to know what symtoms did your birds have? Why add bleach, apple cider, probiotics or enzymes to the water if birds are healthy flying daily eating and drinking regularly birds are pairing and loft is clean.


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## NilsReither

*Toxic stuff*

Hi

Bleach is the same as Chlorine and is very toxic, so I can not recommend that.

There are many much better alternatives to keep the water fresh.

A very good product is Citromed which is a combination of a lot of natural organic acids. This keep bacteria, viruses and fungus away.

The product can be ordered from Europe.


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## maniac

Pattersonk has been too quiet, hope he is not ill or stuck on the toilet


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## spirit wings

maniac said:


> Pattersonk has been too quiet, hope he is not ill or stuck on the toilet


LOLOLOL...


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## pattersonk2002

maniac said:


> Pattersonk has been too quiet, hope he is not ill or stuck on the toilet





spirit wings said:


> LOLOLOL...



Na, I am just fine but I was totally amassed when My terds where bright white, Looked like little ping pong ball's. I might be on to something here. I know there is a few maniacs on here that probally soil themselfs and if they drink my elexiar they could just reach in and pull them out and go about there jolly day >Kevin


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## maniac

Hahahaha thanks for the great laugh!!


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## maniac

So .. here's a serious question that no one who is against chlorine traces in water provided to birds seems to have considered. While chlorine is added to water supplies to disinfect and kill bacteria, filtration done to remove particulates, there is no way that either of these processes remove toxic and very dangerous heavy elements. Nor do these processes remove cast off medicines flushed down drains nor hormones in urine from birth control pillls...

and you guys are worried about what a little bleach might do to the health of your birds ......

ps. there is always distillation


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## Jay3

maniac said:


> So ..* here's a serious question that no one who is against chlorine traces in water provided to birds seems to have considered. *While chlorine is added to water supplies to disinfect and kill bacteria, filtration done to remove particulates, there is no way that either of these processes remove toxic and very dangerous heavy elements. Nor do these processes remove cast off medicines flushed down drains nor hormones in urine from birth control pillls...
> 
> and you guys are worried about what a little bleach might do to the health of your birds ......
> 
> ps. there is always distillation


That's a strange statement to make, as that is not what the thread was about. We were dealing with what the poster posted about. 
Not that we're not concerned with these things, but that wasn't what the thread was about. And there are some things that you can't do anything about. Worry about the things that you CAN do something about, worrying about the things beyond your control is a waste of time.


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