# Quarantine Blues: the Ballad of Rocky and Adrian



## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

Today is day nine of the quarantine. 

I moved Adrian's cage into the same room with Rocky a couple of days ago after they'd both been treated for eternal parasites. They are about ten feet apart and we maintained that distance until last night when Adrian flew to Rocky's cage and clung--while flapping furiously-to the outside of it. Dang. They didn't touch, and I haven't seen any more lice or mites, but I'm going to have to be more vigilant. That was the first time she'd flown that far. (She flies kind of like a June bug--seems like all that plumage weighs her down.)

Still, it's cool to see them so interested in each other. And Rocky didn't go into defender mode; instead he got excited and seemed to want her to come in. Also, when Rocky flies around the room, Adrian gets excited in her cage and does these little stompy circles then climbs up her door flapping furiously. They each have mirrors in their cages, but no other toys. Rocky has been grunting pretty much all his waking hours since I moved Adrian to his room. Adrian is pretty quiet, but occasionally will answer him back.

So, down to business--more questions: 

1.) How long until I spray the birds again for mites/lice? Will the Ivermectin treatment take care of any eggs that may hatch and I won't need to spray again for a while?

2.) The Meditrich arrived today for canker treatment. It is in the form of tablets. The bottle says, "one tablet per pigeon once a month during the racing season." Do I just pop one in each bird's beak? Or do I crush them and put them in water? 

3.) Also, I never got more info from my rude vet tech on the Ivermectin and I'm not sure I will. I've had the flu since a couple of days after we got Adrian and I'm still not up to arguing with her again. Last time (couple of years ago), they gave me a syringe of Ivermectin and said to put a certain number of drops in Rocky's water. This time, they gave me two syringes each filled to the .1cc mark and said to give the whole thing to each bird. After much reading here and elsewhere, I'm thinking to give each bird two drops directly in the beak. Two drops is less than .1cc. If I *underdose* my birds, will it affect them adversely somehow? 

4.) Also, I managed to (sort of) weigh Rocky last night. He's approx. 13oz (370g). He wouldn't hold very still so I could be off ±5g. Does this seem like a reasonable weight for a feral? 
I'll work on getting a weight for Adrian, but I may need to get a different scale. I don't think I have the heart to put her in a bag to weigh her--at least not right now while I'm working on getting her to trust me.

Thanks again.
Claire in TX


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

Update: Spirit Wings answered question #2 for me and both birds have now been treated for canker.


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## RoderickGI (Jun 6, 2010)

I weigh my ex-feral pigeon Chooky by wrapping him in an old tea towel, including covering his head, then sitting him in a large bowl and weighing the lot. I either tare the bowl plus tea towel beforehand, or weigh them together afterward.

Just pick the pigeon up and get it to sit on your hand, then lay the tea towel over it and wrap it around. If the pigeon won't sit in your hand, use the old fancier method of holding around the tail with the feet stretched back rather than tucked up. It seems all pigeons stop strugggling in that position, and wait for whatever happens next.

Chooky settles quite quickly once he understands I mean business, and mostly sits quietly while I weigh him, especially if his head is covered properly. Rather than make him hate me, it seems to make him more compliant for a couple of days afterward. I guess he learns who is boss!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> Today is day nine of the quarantine.
> 
> I moved Adrian's cage into the same room with Rocky a couple of days ago after they'd both been treated for eternal parasites. They are about ten feet apart and we maintained that distance until last night when Adrian flew to Rocky's cage and clung--while flapping furiously-to the outside of it. Dang. They didn't touch, and I haven't seen any more lice or mites, but I'm going to have to be more vigilant. That was the first time she'd flown that far. (She flies kind of like a June bug--seems like all that plumage weighs her down.)
> 
> ...


It's not worth giving the ivermectin unless we know for sure. Even in smaller doses. It's like playing Russian Roulette.

Glad to hear that they're getting interested in each other.

My vet weighs the birds on a perch scale (not this exact model--his is all stainless steel for sanitation.) http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=15088
Maybe this would work for you?

Another possibility is weighing a small cage, then weighing the bird inside and subtracting the cage weight.

oh, did you re-spray her on day 7?


There has got to be a better bird vet in your area. I know there are pigeon people in Texas.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

In the future--maybe try this guy: 

Austin, TX - M. Scott Echols (Westgate Pet & Bird Hosp) - 512-892-4463

He's a board certified avian vet. Anyone can call themselves "avian vet," but it takes certification from the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners to be a board certified avian vet. So this guy should be ok.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

You might also talk to these people https://www.facebook.com/AustinParrotSociety
as they would know the bird resources in your area.


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

RoderickGI, it's funny. I had seen other people say similar things abt their pigeons, but Rocky would never in a million years hold still w/out being forced. I figured I was just doing it wrong. Then we got Adrian. Even if she's made it clear she doesn't want to be picked up, she'll settle as soon as I get her in that leg-dangly position. It blows me away!

Here's Rocky who just has to be ON a person all the time, but won't cuddle or sit or let you do anything to him. And then there's Adrian who's still so skittish and wants to be across the room, but will just calmly sit there in your hand when you pick her up. Must be because she's bred for show? Or do other ferals do this, too? Fascinating.


BTW, I'm totally going to try the tea towel trick.

Libis, thank you so much for the resources and info, again. 

I did manage to get weights for both birds. Adrian was easier to weigh than Rocky. She turned out to be very bribeable w/ the hemp seeds. Rocky, OTOH, was trying so hard to do what I was asking, that he kept knocking the scale over. But we finally got it. 
~13oz(370g) for Rocky and ~12oz(360g) for Adrian. She's so much puffier than he is. I was surprised she weighed less. 

I love the idea of a perch scale. I think I can modify mine like that. Cool.

Both their poops have changed since the canker treatment. I did a whole tab the first day, then half a tab for three more days. Their poops seem to have more green in them and it looks mealy. Adrian's is more watery now. Rocky's has always been watery (except for the giant ones next to his nest sometimes), but Adrian's was very a tidy green and white little nugget before the treatment.
I'll add some probiotic and see if that helps.
I did spray again for the mites and haven't seen anything for well over a week.

Still not sure on the boy/girl question. Adrian loves strips of newspaper and playing w/ the cord of the blinds. That makes me think she's got nesting on her mind. Isn't that a boy thing? Rocky loves that stuff. Also, she wants to be on top of Rocky's cage when I let them out. 
She actually went into Rocky's cage yesterday (both big doors were open). He went in after and was nice to her for a second, then attacked her for being there (like he does to my hand when I reach in). She fought back immediately and wouldn't give up until I separated them. She also attacked him the first time they met. In general, she wants to be near him, but doesn't seem to want him to interact with her.

Both birds still have mirrors in their cages. I was going to wait until we were ready to move the birds to their new outside digs before removing them, but maybe those other birds in the mirror are complicating things. Maybe I should remove those now? (Oh, Rocky will miss his friends.)

They've each spent plenty of time out while the other was locked up. Rocky makes a little triangular path from his cage, right over Adrian's to the bookshelf, over to me, then back to his cage. He would do this for hours straight if I let him. Adrian flies up as high as she can in her cage and clings to the bars pretty much the whole time Rocky is out.
When Adrian is out alone, she goes to the top of Rocky's cage and moves the newspaper aside so she can peer down into his cage. She tries, sometimes successfully, to engage him in a peck fight through the bars or she'll just sit there watching him.

When they're out together, she'll occasionally fly to a spot near him. He's actually landed on her back a couple of times, but that did not go over well. I think getting together might take a really long time. I removed Rocky's eggs when I removed all his toys, but I left his nest (a dog bowl w/ newspaper strips). Should I put something similar in Adrian's cage? Or should I remove Rocky's nest?
So much to learn...


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I am not sure the best way to proceed.......sounds like you are doing well and I am enjoying your posts......so keep posting!! Pigeons are social creatures, they may learn to behave with each other sooner than you think.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> RoderickGI, it's funny. I had seen other people say similar things abt their pigeons, but Rocky would never in a million years hold still w/out being forced. I figured I was just doing it wrong. Then we got Adrian. Even if she's made it clear she doesn't want to be picked up, she'll settle as soon as I get her in that leg-dangly position. It blows me away!
> 
> Here's Rocky who just has to be ON a person all the time, but won't cuddle or sit or let you do anything to him. And then there's Adrian who's still so skittish and wants to be across the room, but will just calmly sit there in your hand when you pick her up. Must be because she's bred for show? Or do other ferals do this, too? Fascinating.
> 
> ...


How about you take the mirrors and start letting them have "dates" in a bathroom or other room that neither has claimed yet? Part of the problem here is that they need to not be worrying about territory for romance to sprout. My birds took a couple of months of "dating" and then I put the cock in the hen's cage each night and took him out in the morning for one week. The last day of the week, I left him in there and supervised them. On this day, so long as there's no blood, it's ok for them to chase and nip at each other a bit. He lived in her cage like this for another week, and when I was positive that they were totally in love, I moved them to his cage.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

s far as weighing them. I just made a box, by using velcro to connect two plastic boxes together. Paper towel in the bottom box. Then weigh the whole box. Put the bird in, close it, and subtract the weight of the box. Works fine.










Why are your two birds not allowed out together? Why not just let them out at the same time to get used to each other while you are there?


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## fajaffafa (Jan 6, 2012)

Just pick the pigeon up and get it to sit on your hand, then lay the tea towel over it and wrap it around. If the pigeon won't sit in your hand, use the old fancier method of holding around the tail with the feet stretched back rather than tucked up. It seems all pigeons stop strugggling in that position, and wait for whatever happens next.


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

I hope you're right, Woodnative, about it being sooner than I think. They are such goobers when they are together now, that I can't imagine them getting along. Really, Adrian has several things to deal with: getting healthy after her street life; getting to know a new home; getting to know the humans in the household; and working out a relationship with Rocky. Time seems to be the answer to all of it.

Well, we've now got them weighed, but I'm wondering how often to check it. With the poop changes and all, I'm thinking I'll need to keep up with it and these ideas are so clever. I love the "weigh cage" and I think I even have all the supplies to put one together. Adrian would probably prefer something like that, but Rocky will be pissed at me for putting him in it (won't let that stop me). He'll be mad abt the tea towel, but I plan to try that, too.

We weren't letting them be together until the quarantine was over, but that is finished now. I've been letting them out in the room and hanging out to supervise while I work on a computer we have in there. Several times now, when they're both out, Rocky does his little triangle path around the room (a habit he's always had and will do in any room we're in), and Adrian will mostly sit on a high spot watching him. Occasionally, she'll fly over near him and hang out, but he usually keeps on flying his pattern. 

She does the funniest things with her neck. In addition to the zittering, she just always seems to be turning her head very expressively. She cracks me up.

She seems to trust me a bit less each day, lately. She wants absolutely nothing to do with me and it's getting harder and harder to catch her when it's time for her to go back to her cage. I hate to chase her around b/c I think it makes the trust thing worse. If only she loved the hemp seeds as much as Rocky does.

As for the "fancier hold", I've been trying to do it for two and a half years with Rocky, but he's like a little contortionist. I'll have to post a video of the diff between him and Adrian. It's like night and day in terms of how they let me interact with them. Maybe with a video you can tell me what I'm doing wrong on the hold.

Now I'm off to reduce the flock size by removing their mirrors.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you darken the room? Pigeons won't fly in the dark, so it's really easy to catch them. Or let them out towards dusk, then to return them to their respective cages, just turn out the light and pick them up. You're right in that chasing them around won't help the trust issue, as it scares them. 

As far as treats that they love, they love chopped unsalted peanuts. They won't always try them right away, as they don't know what they are. So you just mix a little in with their feed. Eventually they will try them, and once they do, they will learn to come to you for them. They all love them.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

RoderickGI said:


> I weigh my ex-feral pigeon Chooky by wrapping him in an old tea towel, including covering his head, then sitting him in a large bowl and weighing the lot. I either tare the bowl plus tea towel beforehand, or weigh them together afterward.
> 
> Just pick the pigeon up and get it to sit on your hand, then lay the tea towel over it and wrap it around. If the pigeon won't sit in your hand, use the old fancier method of holding around the tail with the feet stretched back rather than tucked up. It seems all pigeons stop strugggling in that position, and wait for whatever happens next.
> 
> ...


A paper bag works well too...just weigh the bag first.It's dark inside the bag so the bird calms down and maybe less stressful than the tea towel method.


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## RoderickGI (Jun 6, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> As for the "fancier hold", I've been trying to do it for two and a half years with Rocky, but he's like a little contortionist. I'll have to post a video of the diff between him and Adrian. It's like night and day in terms of how they let me interact with them. Maybe with a video you can tell me what I'm doing wrong on the hold.


This is how to do it. In this position, even if my bird struggles, it can't go anywhere and settles quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxUpc1m8o8w

http://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photography-how-to-hold-a-pigeon-in-your-hand-image16609422

Also as my bird is an ex-feral and a floor bird (he can't fly) I often have to chase him around a bit to catch him. It doesn't seem to do him any harm, perhaps gives him some exercise, and makes him more compliant once I have him. In fact, he is most compliant after he has been chased by a predator, which has happened a few times. He knows he is safe with me, but forgets sometimes when he sees my hands coming for him. Pigeons hate hands.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

RoderickGI said:


> This is how to do it. In this position, even if my bird struggles, it can't go anywhere and settles quickly.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxUpc1m8o8w
> 
> ...


I do this with my ringnecks as well, but (because I have tiny short fingers) I usually end up gently placing my free hand over their back.


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## RoderickGI (Jun 6, 2010)

Pigeons have longer wing feathers than doves, so if you have short fingers and need to hold a pigeon, you can just move your hand a little further down their back, and still get one hand all the way around the bird, holding the wings and feet. I've got some pretty stubby fingers myself.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

RoderickGI said:


> Pigeons have longer wing feathers than doves, so if you have short fingers and need to hold a pigeon, you can just move your hand a little further down their back, and still get one hand all the way around the bird, holding the wings and feet. I've got some pretty stubby fingers myself.


That makes sense because it probably gives them more power in flight.


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

*Update: I think we need a marriage counselor*

We've had Adrian almost two months now and I'm still not sure whether she is even a hen. 

She hasn't laid any eggs. How often do they do that anyway? 
She has a large dog bowl with shredded newspaper in it, but she never sits in it. Sometimes I can see that she's spent some time on the edge of it b/c there'll poop inside the bowl. Rocky _never ever_ poops in his bowl. He leaves a tidy little pile in just one spot outside it.

She is pretty stand-offish with Rocky. She seemed quite interested at firsat, but maybe he said the wrong thing at some point and turned her off. Or maybe she's a he? Usually, he flies to wherever she is sitting and approaches and she makes a sort of warning lunge at him. He then either moves back a bit or flies away to try again in a few minutes. 

Sometimes she'll just move away from him a bit and, as long as he keeps a respectful distance (about a foot), she doesn't react further. Two resting spots that she prefers are the top of the open door to their room and the top of Rocky's cage door when it is open. Rocky's cage door is really narrow, but she still seems to like it. He has never once sat there in the two and a half years we've had him. Maybe this means she's willing to put up with a little discomfort to be near his cage? Dunno. He's rarely in the cage when she's sitting there.

Also, occasionally she'll fly over to where he is and stay about a foot away. 

Adrian will now come to me for treats and will reluctantly sit on my hand or even sometimes fly to my shoulder or head. I never allow Rocky on my shoulder because he can't be trusted near my glasses/earrings/etc. He seems driven to peck at anything that looks slightly interesting, but Adrian seems totally trustworthy there so far. I guess that means she's not cocky yet, but she is exploring more and more.

Another thing we are still dealing with is going back to her cage when play time is over. I have to dim the lights and catch her pretty much every time. 

Rocky still bullies her. If I'm feeding them both treats, I have to put them in one hand for each bird b/c Rocky pushes her away. Also, when they bath together, Rocky will try to chase her out of the bath if I don't hold him back. Twice now I've had to pry her tail feathers out of his beak. So, separate baths for a while.

I wonder if Adrian and Rocky will ever be able to share a cage. [sigh]


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> We've had Adrian almost two months now and I'm still not sure whether she is even a hen.
> 
> She hasn't laid any eggs. How often do they do that anyway?
> She has a large dog bowl with shredded newspaper in it, but she never sits in it. Sometimes I can see that she's spent some time on the edge of it b/c there'll poop inside the bowl. Rocky _never ever_ poops in his bowl. He leaves a tidy little pile in just one spot outside it.
> ...


What is the caging arrangement right now? 

Hens don't lay unless they feel paired up with someone.

Not sure if you have a pair here or two males. Sometimes the courting period is a bit violent depending on the birds. It isn't always love at first sight. What is the routine with their playtimes?

Oh, and so long as Rocky doesn't bring blood, "picking on" Adrian isn't that big of a deal so long as there is no blood. They have to set up the order of hierarchy somehow. I have aggressive doves in my home, too, and the males of each pair are often chasing the hens around. (Don't worry, the hens do still get rest.)


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

Rocky lives in an enormous two-story cage like this:









And Adrian is in a large dog carrier on a desk about 8 feet away. She spends most of her time right up at the door staring at Rocky.

They get to hang out in their flight pen outside (5ftx10ft) for a few hours when it isn't raining or too cold and we can supervise. That works out to about three or four days/week. When they're out there, Adrian spends most of her time on Rocky's favorite perch and Rocky alternates between trying to perch next to her and hanging out on the opposite side.

Every evening (and some mornings) they get a couple of hours out. We lock the dogs outside and R+A get to hang in the living room. Rocky goes around and "greets" all his favorite dog toys (he's definitely not a one-hen bird) and comes over to do his tricks for me. He's always very active. Adrian usually works her way over to me for treats and spends lots of time foraging on the carpet for stray hemp seeds. She's also very interested in the objects on the coffee table and pecking gently at the eyes of the stuffed dog toys. 

Again, at least once or twice every time they are together, Adrian will fly over to where Rocky is. But she doesn't want him too near, though.

Also, she is soooooo much quieter than Rocky. She hardly ever makes a sound. When she does it is usually just a warning croak when I reach into her cage.

Adrian tried to explore Rocky's cage a couple of times early on, but he attacked her. We finished building their little outdoor loft, but I can't imagine them living in such close quarters at this point. Anyway, we have to finish making a real, predator-proof aviary for it so I'm hoping they'll get more comfy with each other by then.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> Rocky lives in an enormous two-story cage like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How about moving Adrian's cage right next to Rocky's for a week or so? Then, after a while, put Rocky in Adrian's cage with her for about a week. They might squabble, but if there's no blood, it's ok. Once they calm down in there, move them to his cage.


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks so much for the advice. 

I will rearrange their room today. I wish the sides of Adrian's cage were more open. I may need to set it so that it's door is up against Rocky's cage, otherwise they won't be able to see each other.

I had thought of putting Adrian in the lower half of Rocky's cage (middle "staircase" lifts up to seal off the bottom) but they would only be able to see each other through that little section where the stairs are folded.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> Thanks so much for the advice.
> 
> I will rearrange their room today. I wish the sides of Adrian's cage were more open. I may need to set it so that it's door is up against Rocky's cage, otherwise they won't be able to see each other.
> 
> I had thought of putting Adrian in the lower half of Rocky's cage (middle "staircase" lifts up to seal off the bottom) but they would only be able to see each other through that little section where the stairs are folded.


Best to start the male in the female's cage. There is less risk of more extreme territorial aggression this way.


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

That makes sense. 
Adrian does display some territorial behavior abt her place, but she's so much less aggressive than Rocky that I can see her being more accepting than he would be.


So, when I put them in the same cage, how long do I let them squabble? They've only gotten into it a few times and I broke it up each time.
I wish I could tell how serious these things really were.

I'll be sure to file Rocky's nails before putting them in together. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> That makes sense.
> Adrian does display some territorial behavior abt her place, but she's so much less aggressive than Rocky that I can see her being more accepting than he would be.
> 
> 
> ...


Let them squabble unless there is blood. If blood is drawn, separate them for a while and maybe go back to cage next to cage again for a while. Squabbling lets them set up the pecking order. I know it's scary--my birds squabbled for quite a while too. 

It helped me to put the male in for the first time at night. Then they cuddled up in the dark and couldn't see each other to fight.


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## ClaireinTX (Sep 1, 2009)

Right now, they each have a bowl and a brick. I'll move Rocky's brick over, but I'm not sure about his bowl.

I've never seen Adrian in her bowl, but have evidence that she sits on the edge sometimes (poop in the bowl). I know Rocky loves his, but I don't know if he could really tell the difference between one and another. Perhaps he has his newspaper strips arranged just so and would be miffed.

I'm thinking before they make the move, I should be looking for the two of them to be spending some time near each other in their own cages? Or does that even matter? Maybe just having closer cages for a week or so is enough?

Can you tell I'm nervous?


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

ClaireinTX said:


> Right now, they each have a bowl and a brick. I'll move Rocky's brick over, but I'm not sure about his bowl.
> 
> I've never seen Adrian in her bowl, but have evidence that she sits on the edge sometimes (poop in the bowl). I know Rocky loves his, but I don't know if he could really tell the difference between one and another. Perhaps he has his newspaper strips arranged just so and would be miffed.
> 
> ...


Hens don't always get really interested in bowls until the cock encourages them towards it (still depends bird-to-bird.) 

Before you move them they should be at least kind of used to seeing each other. I had mine where they could see each other for less time than there's been now and then moved him to her cage after dark when he was already sleepy. Then they cuddled through the night, in the morning there was chasing and a little pecking and slapping, the next day chasing and pecking, and after that it started slowing down. They still peck and chase a little, but it's more of a flirting thing before or during courting rituals (preening, mounting, guiding to the nest, etc.)


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