# Electrolytes are useless??



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Had an interesting discussion today with someone at a new pigeon shop I found.

He really seemed to know what he was talking about (as in quoting research and actual data + several years (and multiple generations) of experience.

So I thought I'd share some of his insights and see what the international community has to say 

*Electrolytes*- are a marketing ploy. Sound stupid right? But why do people and horses NEED electrolytes? Because we lose salt when we sweat.

But pigeons do not sweat (he got me there! NEver even occurerd to me if they sweat or not) so why the electrolytes? They get what they need from the mineral supplements we provide - his conclusion was that giving electrolyes (which he did for several years previously) is redundant and to no benefit if you give them good grit and mineral supplements.


*Vitamins* - according to him, studies are now showing that pigeons really do not absorb vitamins pretty much at all. So all these solutions of Vit A and C we give in the water just pass through them.

*Vaccinations* - now I don't know about the rest of the world but he really opened my eyes to these diseases on factors I had never even thought about before.
There are apparently hundreds of strains of Salmonella. One med might kill this one, but misses some. Others kill some and not these. Same with E-Coli.

And (which was a great shock to me) this also counts for *PMV* - what we call New castle. not all brands that create the vaccine cover the same strain and currently Holland is creating a vaccine for a new strain of PMV which cropped up recently (in birds who were vaccinated with old PMV vaccines) and that many of the old vaccines are going to redundant soon. Also there is a med you can give them instead of an injectable vaccine!

Vaccinating once for *Salmonella* he says means you HAVE to vaccinate every year for the rest of their lives.
He never does so, but rather once a month gives them a med in the water (I do not remember 100% - endoflaxin? possibly).

*Pox* also he does not vaccinate - he says if the pigeon gets it, they get over it, and they never get it again. Like chicken pox in kids. What is the point (he says) to give them a disease for immunity and pay for it, rather than letting them go through it.

Now I was under the impression pox was quite dangerous for squabs - but he races (very successfully) and he says when his yb get pox in the summer he is happy because he knows they are set for life! And won't get affected during race season.

And finally - *pH*! Specifically pH 4.5-5
That is what we need for our pigeons, higher (alkaline) or lower (too acidic) are equally bad

SO instead of just following other people's directions, or prescriptions at the back of a label MEASURE the pH of your water and figure out how much ACV or equivalent to put to get the ideal pH! 
 WHatever else he said I think this was a stroke of genious on his part, to acknowledge that every tap in every house in every village in every country will give you slightly different water! Of course you cannot just apply one standard! I can't believe it never even occurred to me before!

In any case, as I said these are points he raised in our 2hr chat  I haven't had the time to chew it over, nor have I jumped on board with all of what he said but there was enough eye opening points to really make me think!

So I'd really like to hear your thoughts from around the world


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hmm .. interesting. Obviously, the fella is talking about racing and fancy pigeons in a loft situation.

I would agree that much of the stuff that people may give their pigeons is not likely to be necessary, at least on a regular basis. For the most part, I do believe that a good quality, balanced diet, along with a purpose-mixed grit with minerals, clean water and occasional green leaves is fine.

A simple electrolyte solution (which can be mixed with home ingredients anyway) is vital if a bird is dehydrated, otherwise its system may cease to function. Applies more to rescued birds or maybe racers who have been lost awhile and are in a bad state.

Pigeons do get most everything they need in the way of vitamins from their food if, as I say, it’s a good, well-balanced diet. Again, with rescues and others who may not have been getting decent food, vitamin supplements can be almost a requirement. Birds who do not get much sunlight, and those where lofts are quite lightless in winter, can do with a soluble calcium + Vitamin D3 supplement. I tend to be dubious if someone tells me ‘studies have shown’, without some hard evidence to back it up. Generally, pigeons don’t require any extra Vitamin C, though, as they manufacture their own from Vitamin A.

Not too sure about this ‘strains’ of PMV thing. PMV as we know it is Paramyxovirus Type 1 - Pigeon. Newcastle is also type 1 but differs in its structure. There are several other ‘types’ of Paramyxovirus (i.e. Type 2 upwards) which affect different species or groups of species, with little if any crossover. The vaccines currently produced are just for Pigeon PMV, of course. 

Vaccinations for Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid) are not universally accepted as being greatly effective. However, I would absolutely *not* give pigeons antibacterials (thinking Baytril, for instance) as a precaution against infections as a matter of course. It does not work. They are for combatting harmful bacteria in a pigeon that is sick. It is unnecessary use and under-dosing which creates drug-resistant bacteria. Same goes for anti-Canker meds. 

If I were in a part of the world where Avian Pox is quite prevalent, I would vaccinate against it. Most probably do get over it in a few weeks, but it can vary in its intensity and render birds unable to eat or breathe properly. We have seen it in Eurasian Wood Pigeons, and it’s more likely to be fatal in them than our usual pigeons.

I really don’t know much about the additives such as ACV. I know that harmful bacteria do not thrive in an acid environment, hence ACV, but how much good it actually does I couldn’t say.


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

John_D said:


> Hmm .. interesting. Obviously, the fella is talking about racing and fancy pigeons in a loft situation.
> 
> I would agree that much of the stuff that people may give their pigeons is not likely to be necessary, at least on a regular basis. For the most part, I do believe that a good quality, balanced diet, along with a purpose-mixed grit with minerals, clean water and occasional green leaves is fine.
> 
> ...


*I think this to me was the biggest eye opener  That I now have a pH bracket to aim for. He says all he concerns himself with is keeping their gut levels within that bracket, which I think is a good goal re preventive health care*

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail! I'll never get tired of discussing these fantastic birds and its great to be able to share that enthusiasm with others who spend equally as much time thinking about their pidgies


----------



## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

If the pigeons are healthy, one can never value the improvement in birds by the use of electrolytes,acv,vitamins etc. Healthy pigeons won't show any considerable change. But even a single dose of 25mg calcium have helped the pmv affected/weak/deficient/egg bound pigeons in my exp.

Other regular members know I've been going through a very bad situation with pigeons in my area. I experimented with different medicines and supplements. ACV do make a difference. Electrolytes and vitamin supplements pretty much help the birds to become healthy and to do away with balance disorders. Pigeon don't sweat but they do drink a lot when under stress or illness and pass out so much water that they do loose their vital bodily salts. Their liver and kidneys come under stress and do poop out water that's why they need electrolytes and other stuff we're talking about. Only TWO DAYS of electrolytes can transform a wet nest into a dry one if birds are salts deficient. I've seen the effects with my own eyes.
Vaccinations do help GREATLY with pmv1. The thing is to use the right one. New castle and pmv1 is not the same. New castle is virus that attacks chicken showing similar symptoms that pmv1 manifests in pigeons. So chosing right vaccination is the key.

That guy may have a particular situation and experiences that certainly don't match to what people have experienced worldwide.

If one keep giving his HEALTHY birds probiotics,supplements,vaccinations,prevention courses etc regularly and timely, he may not notice any miracle change in his HEALTHY birds' composure but that DO GREATLY HELP the birds to stay healthy. Once one stops doing that he WILL faces crises some day.
My own experience, hearing "______'s" Coach "______" saying "you don't medicate the birds when they don't need them" I stopped prevention courses and gave only few supplements. That costed me DEARLY. I would never believe any guy saying that anymore even if he's God himself. We eat so many different things for nutrition. We give so many things to our other pets. Pigeons also need things,likewise cuz they do have complex bodies with needs. Ive deleted the names cuz name calling always gets me into trouble.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ThePigeonGene said:


> Had an interesting discussion today with someone at a new pigeon shop I found.
> 
> He really seemed to know what he was talking about (as in quoting research and actual data + several years (and multiple generations) of experience.
> 
> ...


Im not sold on the vitamins theory. yet,,.. I have seen improvment with them when there is a lack of . 

I agree less is more.. and keeping it simple. my loft is a closed loft so no new birds have come in in awhile, but it is disease free for a very long time.. I only give clean food and fresh water daily and grit and oystershell. that is it. 

when thinking racing I guess everyone wants to one up someone and people will jump on a product.. if your in business selling this stuff your smart and make allot of money.. too bad none of it is proven by science.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When a bird has pox, then yes, they say he is immune for life. But that pox can also go through your loft as it is very contagious. If many birds get it so badly that they cannot even eat, then you will lose birds. And trying to hand feed a loft full of birds can be daunting. Birds beaks have been so damaged by pox, that they don't recover enough to eat on their own again. And many can die from pox. They can also get secondary infections from it. So you decide.


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> When a bird has pox, then yes, they say he is immune for life. But that pox can also go through your loft as it is very contagious. If many birds get it so badly that they cannot even eat, then you will lose birds. And trying to hand feed a loft full of birds can be daunting. Birds beaks have been so damaged by pox, that they don't recover enough to eat on their own again. And many can die from pox. They can also get secondary infections from it. So you decide.


That's good to know thanks. When talking to racers i have noticed that the general attitude is to save the best rather than save them all,
so after reading your post then I suspect it isn't a big deal to him because perhaps it is a form of natural selection. Maybe.

But not a risk I would be willing to take with my birds so thanks for the information. Till now I've always automatically vaccinated for pox, because that's kind of 'what you do' and I think i will keep doing so 

Any idea if there are more than one strain of pox or is it one global disease?


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Thanks for all the input guys 

Its great to learn from people from literally every corner of this Earth!
The internet really is an amazing place


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here is an interesting article that you may want to read.
https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

It is not like your young birds get POX every year. You may go a few years and have NO pox. Then go a few where you have a little. I think some of that would depend on where you live. Pox is more a young bird problem only. I never vaccinated for it. I think I had in in my loft maybe 4 or 5 times in near 50 years. But as said perhaps other areas it might be different. Never had any bird die from it Or even gett where they could not eat


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I think your new friend likes to hear himself talk, and if he can get some one to listen all the better.

When I have a bird come home from a long race on a hot day I will give them electrolytes, weather they sweat or not they still need all the help they can get to bounce back.

When some other strain of PMV is found I'll vaccinate for both if I have to to stop it.

There is no natural selection for Pox it will get your best and any other young bird in your loft. It doesn't coast much to vaccinate and is easy to do so why take a chance. I guess this guy has never lost a bird out of his best pair or just does not care.

The PH thing has a point and that is easy to test the water for they sell kits at Wallmart.
Dave


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

re lee said:


> It is not like your young birds get POX every year. You may go a few years and have NO pox. Then go a few where you have a little. I think some of that would depend on where you live. Pox is more a young bird problem only. I never vaccinated for it. I think I had in in my loft maybe 4 or 5 times in near 50 years. But as said perhaps other areas it might be different. Never had any bird die from it Or even gett where they could not eat


That's interesting to note, thank you 
Some one else also mentioned that in some areas it is more prevalent than others.

Is it possible for them to get it from wild birds do you think? Like sparrows or would they need to be in contact with an infected pigeon.

I know in the capital I have see a few cases of pox every year in the ferals. But not quite rarely actually

I feel so stupid having pigeons for 4 years and never really putting any serious thought into the actual diseases they can get!


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Crazy Pete said:


> I think your new friend likes to hear himself talk, and if he can get some one to listen all the better.
> 
> *Probably, but if its about pigeons I'm not complaining  *
> 
> ...


THanks for the feed back


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Did a little science today  And I've got some pics for you too 

Turns out our tap water is pH 7 (which is lower than I was expecting with all the stone in our water)

I usually use 3 supplements ; garlic, which i did not test, a supplement called Ropa-B which I love and is oregano based, and ACV.

First pic -









Top strip;
So Ropa-B 1ml in 100ml - pH of 7 (so no good as an acidifier - which someone was trying to sell it to me as - I use it anyway for other reasons but thought I'd check the pH once I was in the swing of things)

Bottom strip;
ACV 1ml in 100ml - pH 4 (so a little on the strong side but getting there )


Second pic- (sorry for the shine)









Top strip; ACV 1ml in 1litre pH 6.5-7
Middle strip; ACV 5ml in 1litre pH 5.5
Bottom strip; ACV 10ml in 1 litre (so same % as the 1ml in 100ml) pH 4

So I figure for my water I'd need between 6-8ml of ACV per litre of water

MUCH more than I used to put! Which was a 'splash' and prob close to the 1ml in 1litre so wasn't really acidifying them at all


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> Here is an interesting article that you may want to read.
> https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html


Very interesting article! Thanks


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

ThePigeonGene said:


> That's interesting to note, thank you
> Some one else also mentioned that in some areas it is more prevalent than others.
> 
> Is it possible for them to get it from wild birds do you think? Like sparrows or would they need to be in contact with an infected pigeon.
> ...


Some areas can have a MUCH larger mosquito problem then others. With that and loft design Young birds could get Pox more. But pox is more or less just confined to young birds. Wher the main vaccine to be considered is PMV vaccine any other vaccine well that is up to the person. BUt pmv should be a must vaccine. Far as Vitimans yes they will help. Now wild pigeons are different. They for One are lucky to live what THREE years. And must forage for every thing But loft birds can live 15 years or longer. And do have needs to be kept healthy.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pox isn't confined to young birds. I don't know why you believe that, but any bird can get it.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> Pox isn't confined to young birds. I don't know why you believe that, but any bird can get it.


Because IF you read up on it It is found that mOST all adult pigeons are imune to it. And several points it as a young bird problem ONLY. PLus How many adult birds have you had with pox. I have never had any. But Believe as you may.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not only young birds will get pox.

These are not young birds.
http://worldofpigeons.blogspot.com/2013/01/pigeon-pox.html

Neither is this pic of a young bird.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/specificinfections-pigeonpox.php


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Have had my racing pigeons for 30 years....Never had Pox,and never seen it on any pigeons in my combine...Haven`t heard of anyone`s birds getting Pox either...But as far as supplements for racing pigeons,there are hundreds of them for our pigeons..Read all the articules in the books/magazines that tell you to add this,and that every day to your birds...Fellow pigeon folks,please correct me if i`m wrong...There are only 7 days in a week,and these ads & writeups tell you to put all this stuff in the birds water...You can`t give your birds 25 different things in the water,at one per day,if there is only 7 days in a week....So,if you want to save allot of money,just use.......
Orange Gatorade for electrolytes when needed...Maybe some Honey in the water after a hard race....Apple Cider Vinegar from Bragg`s twice per week.....Some Garlic in the water once per week.....Keep a grated frozen Lemon in the freezer,give a teaspoon twice per week in the water...That covers 7 days folks....Adjust these items to your liking...They will keep your birds healthy,without all those supplements...If you want,give vitamins one day per week....No problem...But the best grains,at least 14 or more different kinds will suffice nicely....Clean grit is a must...As is FRESH water twice per day,with or without and added item from above...I do not innoculate my pigeons at all,never did,never will...I have them living to 17 to 19 years of age...Without never being sick...I have to add one last item....It is called a "Scraper"....I use a 6 inch and a 4 inch at my lofts....It is MORE IMPORTANT then anything you have ever read about....The best racing/breeding lofts in all the world for 75 years was the Janssen Bros.....Here is a quote from them...*"We never go into any one of our lofts or sections,without a SCRAPER in our hands"....*
You cannot keep pigeons super healthy if the lofts are full of droppings....If you scrape once per week,or twice per week,make sure you have plenty of Cocci & Worm med`s on hand...Because after 48 hours,the droppings of your pigeons will be "READY" to give your birds these medical problems...They become fertile after 48 hrs folks....So if you scrape everyday at least,you are probally never going to have to worry about Worms & Cocci....
And you just saved a bunch of money also....Alamo


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Hey Almao,

What about PMV? Isn't that something your racers are likely to pic up from others? Have you never had a case of that either?


----------



## pigeonflier (May 4, 2014)

In my area pox is a given if you don't vaccinate. I just thought that was the norm. So I do vaccinate,, just so they get it when I want them to,, which is now before training starts. ANd I can only hope the guys I race with are only using natural products and not giving anything special,, that way come Sun I know who is gonna be out front!!


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I do not PMV my birds.....In 1987 ?? Not sure what the year was,PMV hit the USA big time...One RCH(YB) died of mine....Many guys lost 45 to 100 or more birds....How come I only lost ONE bird to death ??? ALL my birds came down with PMV,but only one died....Maybe I`m doing something right...It can`t be luck,because luck has nothing to do with racing pigeons....You either have VG birds,who can race well up to 600 miles,or you don`t...Plain and simple...What I said in my above post is,you can keep birds healthy with natural stuff....I`m not saying you can`t give a supplement or a couple of other items if you want...But to much of all this stuff on the market is useless,unless you have GOOD birds....I have two of each MAIN med`s in my fridge...
For Cocci..Respiratory,Canker...& One for worms....I do put my YB`s through a short & sweet med program 1 month before the races begin...But unless I see something that I don`t like in the droppings,or the look/color of the throat,or the eyes,they get only natural stuff in their water.....Alamo


----------



## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Alamo said:


> I do not PMV my birds.....In 1987 ?? Not sure what the year was,PMV hit the USA big time...One RCH(YB) died of mine....Many guys lost 45 to 100 or more birds....How come I only lost ONE bird to death ??? ALL my birds came down with PMV,but only one died....Maybe I`m doing something right...It can`t be luck,because luck has nothing to do with racing pigeons....You either have VG birds,who can race well up to 600 miles,or you don`t...Plain and simple...What I said in my above post is,you can keep birds healthy with natural stuff....I`m not saying you can`t give a supplement or a couple of other items if you want...But to much of all this stuff on the market is useless,unless you have GOOD birds....I have two of each MAIN med`s in my fridge...
> For Cocci..Respiratory,Canker...& One for worms....I do put my YB`s through a short & sweet med program 1 month before the races begin...But unless I see something that I don`t like in the droppings,or the look/color of the throat,or the eyes,they get only natural stuff in their water.....Alamo


Interesting  I wonder if it works the same way for fancy breeds? 
I have noticed my few homers are always the last to get something and the first to recover from it


----------

