# Tell me about Trentons...



## Fancyfowl4ever (Oct 6, 2006)

Hi, I aquired 3 Young Racers which are supposed to be of the Trenton Bloodline. I have no clue about bloodlines, I do not race my birds, but I did need new blood and those were the only birds at the whole sale which were labeled as homers and acctually looked like some too.
What is the Trenton Bloodline about? They do look like some REALLY nice birds.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Hello,

Trenton's are one of the oldest bloodlines that supposedly originated here in the states. When I say old I am talking turn of the century (that's 20th not 21st). I would seriosly doubt how much original Trenton blood is left in any line trying to carry that name. Don't be too hung up on the name. Nine chances out of ten, it doesn't amount to much anyway, especially if they are claiming an ancient bloodline like Trentons.

Dan


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Sound advise DAN!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Some info I searched up on Trentons

http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/loft/articles/trenton.html
http://www.pigeonbasics.com/articles/article159.html
http://www.pipa.be/artikelsnew/differentwriters/trenton.htm

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Hello,
> 
> Trenton's are one of the oldest bloodlines that supposedly originated here in the states. When I say old I am talking turn of the century (that's 20th not 21st). I would seriosly doubt how much original Trenton blood is left in any line trying to carry that name. Don't be too hung up on the name. Nine chances out of ten, it doesn't amount to much anyway, especially if they are claiming an ancient bloodline like Trentons.
> 
> Dan


Dan,

I agree with your assessment. This particular family or strain of birds died out a very, very long time ago. The pigeons which are called "Trentons" today, are really show birds. Even if someone could produce a fifty generation line breeding chart in order to show otherwise. A local fancier has had them for years, and he said they are only show birds, since he was unable to get the YB's to return from training tosses. 

What I find really facinating, is why this American strain is the only family worth mentioning, in spite of the fact that many thousands of racers have been imported into the USA. I suggest that the reason why that has been true, is that we may have quite a few pigeon dealers in the USA, but we really have even fewer fanciers that have focused on the breeding side of this sport. But, that is a topic for another thread.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Dan,
> 
> I agree with your assessment. This particular family or strain of birds died out a very, very long time ago. The pigeons which are called "Trentons" today, are really show birds. Even if someone could produce a fifty generation line breeding chart in order to show otherwise. A local fancier has had them for years, and he said they are only show birds, since he was unable to get the YB's to return from training tosses.
> 
> What I find really facinating, is why this American strain is the only family worth mentioning, in spite of the fact that many thousands of racers have been imported into the USA. *I suggest that the reason why that has been true, is that we may have quite a few pigeon dealers in the USA, but we really have even fewer fanciers that have focused on the breeding side of this sport. But, that is a topic for another thread.  *


You know that I agree 110% with you Warren. The more research I do on genetics, breeding and the history of pigeon racing in USA the more I see that it has recently become dominated by the Mike Ganus's of the world brainwashing us into thinking that the only birds worth developing a family around are the ones he has imported from Europe.

Don't get me wrong, Mike has set new standards of quality within one loft. He has spent untold thousands of dollars to do that. But, in the long run, does this really create the optimal environment from which to develope a colony of racing pigeons. I suggest people do some reading on Dave Shewmaker's site:

www.shewmaker.com

He deals with these issues from a purely scientific standpoint. To the open minded, it just might shead some light on all of this.

Dan


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Just wanted to get my two cents in. I would be quick to argue the Short Faces from Art Hees, the Calia Janseens, Vic Miller's developed family etc as todays American Strains. They may not be any more American than the guy across the street, but they do have multiple generations born in the US of A. And they do win big. Mike has brought in some great birds, but so has Warren, Barry YU, Crazy Al, Peeman, etc. The art is to take these birds, the best in your area, and develope your own family. I am on my third generation of mutts. As Warren would say they are Hill birds, Smith birds etc. If I were looking for birds I would look to a guy who has five or six if not more generations of a good breeding program under his belt from quality foundation birds. A guy would be smart to start with the above mentioned imports, crossed into the sound family to try and find some golden eggs. Hey if not for Mike Ganus, I would not have a grandson of the world champion in my loft. I am still looking for that right cross with him. My thoughts on the birds you have, would be to raise some young birds and fly them. If you win keep them, if not give them to the next guy and get the winners. I would also find some quality young bird kits to fly with them to have something to compare them to. 

Randy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Alot of true aspects have been said on this subject about Trentons. Yes tretnons was a strong long distance base strain. An Amereican strain. It would be hard to find true trentons now. Sure the blood line could have been worked with. BUT ANY line after it goes to a different breeder changes into what that person fixs as there need. Remeber trentons were distance based. So they would perform better as old birds. You have had good info by several on this thread Work with what you have take your time to build your foundation


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

I've Raced since 1958 & never seen or known of a Trenton Winning a Race Short, Med., or Long in Southern California... Maybe it has happened, but not in the Comcourse's/Combines I've flown in.... Happy


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Happy said:


> I've Raced since 1958 & never seen or known of a Trenton Winning a Race Short, Med., or Long in Southern California... Maybe it has happened, but not in the Comcourse's/Combines I've flown in.... Happy


Happy,

That's because by 1958 the Trenton strain had probably been absorbed into all the different lofts and dilluted to the point of nonexistence. Remember, this is a strain who's origins were in the 1880's.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Long Distance Homers...Or Racers Built For Speed*



learning said:


> Happy,
> 
> That's because by 1958 the Trenton strain had probably been absorbed into all the different lofts and dilluted to the point of nonexistence. Remember, this is a strain who's origins were in the 1880's.
> 
> Dan


 Dan,

I also think that over the years, there was much less demand or need for "Homers" which could return from a 1,000 mile "Race". I know some of these long events still existed in the 1960's, but I am sure that idea was already in great decline. Even today, many Combines only fly 500 mile races, and have been dropping the 600 mile events because of expense. These longer race events, and the type's of birds required for them, were being replaced with more speed events.

Interestingly, it seems to me, that now YB's are being asked to fly longer distances with more 350 and 400 mile events. Which in the interest of the YB's, may be pushing the envelope. But it certainly creates a real challenge in developing a YB family which can win average speed events when they must compete at various distances of from 100 to 400 miles. With such events gaining in popularity over the years, what use would a family line of slow maturing, super long distance "Homers" be to the modern fancier interested in building a winning race team, competing in such relatively short "Speed" events ?


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Dan,
> 
> I also think that over the years, there was much less demand or need for "Homers" which could return from a 1,000 mile "Race". I know some of these long events still existed in the 1960's, but I am sure that idea was already in great decline. Even today, many Combines only fly 500 mile races, and have been dropping the 600 mile events because of expense. These longer race events, and the type's of birds required for them, were being replaced with more speed events.
> 
> Interestingly, it seems to me, that now YB's are being asked to fly longer distances with more 350 and 400 mile events. Which in the interest of the YB's, may be pushing the envelope. But it certainly creates a real challenge in developing a YB family which can win average speed events when they must compete at various distances of from 100 to 400 miles. With such events gaining in popularity over the years, *what use would a family line of slow maturing, super long distance "Homers" be to the modern fancier interested in building a winning race team, competing in such relatively short "Speed" events ?*




Good Point Warren,

It is somewhat of a shame that there doesn't appear to be room in the sport for all aspects, as it used to be. I know that there are many people that are glad to see the long distance and marathon races go, but it is a little sad to me. There were a lot of fanciers that prided themselves on their ability to create a long distance family of pigeons that are now virtually obsolete. I guess the all mighty dollar has had it's influence felt here as well, in the form of racing and training expense as well as the prize money associated with the shorter sprint oriented races.

Dan


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Happy said:


> I've Raced since 1958 & never seen or known of a Trenton Winning a Race Short, Med., or Long in Southern California... Maybe it has happened, but not in the Comcourse's/Combines I've flown in.... Happy


Just maybe no one kept trentons in your area. OR never said what they had.Trenton based birds have won many a race since 1958 in the U S and even other countries. But really agin after some one else buys /gets any birds They put there own mark on them The strain line remains the base but they become your family of birds. Sions, gurnay, bastins, stasserts. on and on have became birds of the past. BUT the name is still being used today. Are there any real birds left of that strain. NOT really just in name Somewhere along the line the birds have been altered.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Other Opinions*



learning said:


> Happy,
> 
> That's because by 1958 the Trenton strain had probably been absorbed into all the different lofts and dilluted to the point of nonexistence. Remember, this is a strain who's origins were in the 1880's.
> 
> Dan


Dan,+ Warren, R E Lee, You 3 Compardres. There doesn't have to have an answer to every question/statement.. Sometimes it's OK to say I don't know, or that maybe someone else has flown Racing Pigeons longer than me & probably knows..... Just so ya know that we had plenty of Barkers, Grooters, Bricoux's, Gurnays, Soffles, Weggs, Havenith, Osman, Huysken's, Bastins, & even Logans that flew in these yrs. that Won many races & they are VERY OLD strains also, but the Trentons just didn't in "SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA". Also Dan ya might just keep an open mind that we did have many Pure Strains in those older times as it wasn't the "Jet Sets/Cell Phone World" that ya have today (that I know your Compardres repeat Over & Over again that they didn't/dont..... Please don't let Warren beat it into your brain that Old Birds 500 & 600mi. races are over, just because he says so & that Young Birds are the Future... We in So. California still fly 450-500-550-600mi. Races... every year, as they have done since the late 1940's with 600 mi. Day Birds most every year. We fly MORE Old Birds per race that most any of the Y.B. races here. Why you guys think Old Birds are a thing of the past Baffles my mind... It's easy to write articals on Racing Pigeons today with computers, but Racing concistantly with the Race Reports doing the talking, not $$$$$$$ wins that at least one person on the Racing Forum wants people on here to believe is the real Winners......Just some thought...... Happy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Happy said:


> ...... Please don't let Warren beat it into your brain that Old Birds 500 & 600mi. races are over, just because he says so & that Young Birds are the Future... We in So. California still fly 450-500-550-600mi. Races... every year, as they have done since the late 1940's with 600 mi. Day Birds most every year. We fly MORE Old Birds per race that most any of the Y.B. races here. Why you guys think Old Birds are a thing of the past Baffles my mind... It's easy to write articals on Racing Pigeons today with computers.... Happy


Hello Mr. Happy,  

I don't think my posts on this thread tried to pound into anyone's head...anything....but certainly I did not say that OB's and 500 & 600 mile races are no longer flown...I think my point was/is the 1,000 mile etc., the really long distance races are already a thing of the past.

I think that if you look on page 24 in the Oct Digest there is an article called "Pigeon Arithmetic" which among other things suggests you look at your combine's OB and YB race schedules and count the number of races at each distance, then figure the total percentage. In this computer written article........ he suggests...at least in his Combine that the majority of races are under 400 miles. So maybe 75% of your team must be good at these sprint or speed types of events. Perhaps your Combine Happy...flys more 500 & 600 mile races then any other Combine in the rest of America....but for the majority of American fanciers, they will need to have birds which can compete at the "speed" events of 100 to 400 miles, more times in a season then the 500 or 600 mile events.

And if you page to page 82 in your Oct 15th Digest, you can see the distances flown in Belgium listed in miles....and no surprize here....the vast majority of their race stations are also under 500 miles. And of course if you look at the majority of race stations around the world, be it China, the Philippines, Hawaii, New Jersey, France, or Holland...the majority of all these races are also under 500 miles. 

Your guess or prediction of the future, is just as good as mine, and only time will tell. My prediction is this....As the price of oil continue's to rise, and Combine's look at their decreasing numbers of fliers, and the increasing costs of transportation, the 600 mile event will become less and less common. Maybe not right away, but my guess is every 50 cent increase in the cost of gasoline will cause more clubs to consider replacing the longer races with shorter ones.......with today's cost somewhere around $3 a gallon, depending on where you are in the USA, we will have to wait and see the impact and perhaps conduct a survey to see how $4 a gallon...$5 a gallon....$6+ a gallon affects these events. 

As far as *"Just so ya know that we had plenty of Barkers, Grooters, Bricoux's, Gurnays, Soffles, Weggs, Havenith, Osman, Huysken's, Bastins, & even Logans that flew in these yrs." *.....and my grand pa was around the time of Ford's early model automobiles.....but none of them are in any auto races today......and neither are any of those gentlemen's birds you mention, racing in any events today either. The best you can say...or any of your Compardres...in the good ole days...is that your orginal foundation breeders were based on birds bred by one of these long deceased gentlemen. That being the case....then you were and are today, flying "Happy" birds.....That is my view.......and I am sticking with it ! 

But what makes this game fun, is every pigeon guy has developed a set of ideas, theories, memory's and traditions...and when we get together we all enjoy selling our thoughts on any pigeon subject.....even when no one is buying it..... 

I enjoy these discussion's....much food for thought....even if they are written from a computer....


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Happy,

I love these discussions as I feel that it stimulates people to think. I am a 20 year veteran of the education field. I am currently working on my Ed.S. degree soon to be followed by my doctorate so I am somewhat familliar with the process of learning and the one thing that I am finding in my studies that scares me, is that we as Americans are doing less and less thinking. We are far too quick to let someone else do it for us. Anything that can stimulate more of it I am all for.  

Why _doesn't_ there have to be an answer for every question, Happy? Isn't that what spurs us on to create new things and explore new ground. It is the desire to answer questions in our lives that motivates people towards independant thinking, and Lord knows we need more of that in this sport! Now, having said that, there is no reason why there can't be more than one correct answer. Whatever makes sense and works for the individual is "correct" for that person's application.

As far as brainwashing goes, believe me, I am _*far*_ too old and *far* to stubborn to be blindly lead down any primrose path! If it doesn't make sense to me and I can't find any logical reason for it being so, I just don't buy into it. 

Now, all I was saying in my previous post was that it is unfortunate that the activity has swung it's emphasis completely onto the shorter, more sprint oriented, race schedule and that I feel it is at least in part due to the pressure that skyrocketing costs have put on clubs to limit the shipping of the long and marathon type races. Please do not read anything more into it. I never said that the 500 and 600 mile events were a thing of the past. Sure, most clubs still fly maybe a 500 or two, and _*maybe*_ one 600. My point is that at the same time, they are flying 3 or 4 200's, 2 or 3 300's, etc., etc. Does it make sense for a fancier to focus his entire breeding program on two races per year? That is up to the individual to decide. My guess is that the majority of people will focus their attention on the majority of their race schedule. Is this good or bad? I don't know, I think it is just a fact that each of us will approach in their own way.

Have a great day,

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Dan Detweiler builds Champions !*



learning said:


> Happy,
> 
> I love these discussions as I feel that it stimulates people to think. I am a 20 year veteran of the education field. I am currently working on my Ed.S. degree soon to be followed by my doctorate so I am somewhat familliar with the process of learning and the one thing that I am finding in my studies that scares me, is that we as Americans are doing less and less thinking. We are far too quick to let someone else do it for us. Anything that can stimulate more of it I am all for.  ........
> 
> ...



Hello Folks......

Just to set the facts straight......

Dan Detweiler....is being far....far too modest......

He is not *just* a teacher, I work with teachers every day as part of my state job dealing with the needs of students, in particular the transportation needs of disabled children. I also have relatives who are retired from this profession and those currently teaching. So I meet and deal with hundreds of teachers a year. Mr. Dan Detweiler is well known through out the country for his particular education speciality. Here is just some of what I found when I made some quick inquires, and it appears that many of his peers in his profession, see him as simply one of the very best. A real shining star...... 


"He is a long time member of the GA Music Educators Association as well as the Music Educators National Conference. He has served as an adjudicator and clinician all over the Southeast as well as Alaska and New York. He is also an adjudicator for the Southeastern Color Guard Circuit. Some of his performance and in structional experience includes marching with the ten-time world champion Blue Devils Drum and Bugle Corps from Concord, CA and instructing the Spirit of Atlanta Drum and Bugle Corps from Atlanta, GA Mr. Detweiler also serves as an arranger, designer and consultant for several bands in the metro Atlanta area."

I fear for those poor souls who ever have to compete with him in the pigeon races....be they YB or OB events...or 100 or 600 mile events. This my friends, is what in my humble opinion, is what they call a "Quick Study"....his keen mind is a sponge for knowlege, and perhaps more importantly....he is able to take this book learning....and turn it into real results. Wheather it be training a group of high school kids into Champion Marching Bands, with all that entails...to building a Championship World Class Racing Pigeon Team ! My money is on those *Detweiler's* pigeons.........


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Warren,

You are *waaayyyyyy* too kind. I don't think my accomplishments or history as a musician or music educator really adds anything relevant to this particular discussion, but I am very flattered that you brought it up. 

In the pigeon world, I am a complete novice and have no problem admitting that at this point. Happy is right...I don't have the answers. My point is simply that in striving to find the answers, we find ourselves gaining knowledge.

Thanks Again,

Dan


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Learning,

Perhaps I have a different take on this due to my years in law enforcement and the military. 

No Learning there doesn't there have to be an answer for every question!

There are as many different variations of how to feed,water and train pigeons as there are verions of the Bible, Coran and Tara. It's an open ended question with no set answers other than what one choses to believe and follow. Many times all it does is start conflict, *find a mentor* take what you can from them and add your own knowledge to it.

Just to add my two cents in, I've never had a Trenton make it past the 100mi mark, "Old or Young bird" and I obtained them from some of the top so called Trenton lofts in the USA. 

The best birds I have ever owned have been crosses! Yeah I know some dont like that word. But as Warren and some others have mentioned, You obtain the best available blood you can. From here or Europe (heck even the Auzzies have excellant birds) you bring them to your loft, breed and train them and if your real lucky or smart about it. You get them to click and perform in your area. 

Then you take the best of your own birds (the ones you bred from the original stock you obtained) and after they have been flown and proven. You begin the process of reproducing them. Inbreed back on the original blood brought into your loft, as well as, breeding the best to the best at the same or simailar distances. Then before you even know it, you have your own blood lines. Yes thats what I said, your own bloodlines. In the distant past they may have been weggies, chicago beckearts, and Janseens (just to name a few) from various different lofts. But now they are the "Learning", "Smith", "Lawman" and (?) bloodlines. 

I personally believe that as soon as you take the first pair you obtained and begin to breed them, you put your mark on the pedigree. As you most certainly wont pair the birds the same way as the original owner did, so the line should now carry your name.

I also have to agree with Warren, *YOU DON'T GIVE UP WHERE THE GOLDEN GOOSE IS LAYING IF YOU STILL WANT IT TO BE THERE WHEN YOU COME BACK!!!*

Just my thoughts, 
Lawman


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Learning,

Perhaps I have a different take on this due to my years in law enforcement and the military. 

No Learning there doesn't there have to be an answer for every question!

There are as many different variations of how to feed,water and train pigeons as there are verions of the Bible, Coran and Tara. It's an open ended question with no set answers other than what one choses to believe and follow. Many times all it does is start conflict, *find a mentor* take what you can from them and add your own knowledge to it.

Just to add my two cents in, I've never had a Trenton make it past the 100mi mark, (most never made it past 20mi) "Old or Young bird" and I obtained them from some of the top so called Trenton lofts in the USA. 

The best birds I have ever owned have been crosses! Yeah I know some dont like that word. But as Warren and some others have mentioned, You obtain the best available blood you can. From here or Europe (heck even the Auzzies have excellant birds) you bring them to your loft, breed and train them and if your real lucky or smart about it. You get them to click and perform in your area. 

Then you take the best of your own birds (the ones you bred from the original stock you obtained) and after they have been flown and proven. You begin the process of reproducing them. Inbreed back on the original blood brought into your loft, as well as, breeding the best to the best at the same or simailar distances. Then before you even know it, you have your own blood lines. Yes thats what I said, your own bloodlines. In the distant past they may have been weggies, chicago beckearts, and Janseens (just to name a few) from various different lofts. But now they are the "Learning", "Smith", "Lawman" and (?) bloodlines. 

I personally believe that as soon as you take the first pair you obtained and begin to breed them, you put your mark on the pedigree. As you most certainly wont pair the birds the same way as the original owner did, so the line should now carry your name.

I also have to agree with Warren, *YOU DON'T GIVE UP WHERE THE GOLDEN GOOSE IS LAYING, IF YOU STILL WANT IT TO BE THERE WHEN YOU COME BACK!!!* 

Just my thoughts, 
Lawman


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

lawman said:


> Hi Learning,
> 
> Perhaps I have a different take on this due to my years in law enforcement and the military.
> 
> ...


But you see Lawman, you just reinforce what I am saying. Of course there are multiple answers to any question, but there are answers. It is in the questioning that knowledge is found. Blindly following the ways of the past simply because "that is the way it has always been done" simply leads to dogma and ritual. Now don't go reading into this that I am saying there is nothing to be learned from the masters of the past or present. I am not saying that in the least. I am just saying that we should use our own intellect and common sense to verify what others believe to be true. It is then and only then that the knowledge becomes our own.

I am sure I am waxing way too philosophical. Bottom Line...

*TOO EACH HIS OWN!!!!*

Dan


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

learning said:


> Warren,
> 
> You are *waaayyyyyy* too kind. I don't think my accomplishments or history as a musician or music educator really adds anything relevant to this particular discussion, but I am very flattered that you brought it up.
> 
> ...


Dan, I think you just said what I was meaning on most of this. You gave me a reply/answer to my answer abt. Trentons.. You have said on here numerous times that you raced a little many yrs. ago, & don't currently Have Racers or Race. My other point an answers is that I was told many yrs. ago that there are More Questions Than there are answers in this world. That is easy for me to understand. Reading books, internet, having a high IQ, is all great, but doesn't mean a person understands Hands On, Racing YB's & OB's every yr..I like costructive opinions from those that do the work, not just fly YB's & races to only 300-350mi. & many of these people have Loft Managers, S**t Cleaners, etc..!! A Book/Internet is just someones opinion & unfortunately New-bies Quote these things like they have experenced them... I also Regret that I can't make a post/answer a question on here to someone without Warren or R lee making a comback at me 2 fold. Warren has admitted that he only flys YB's & R E Lee hasn't raced now for many yrs....I can tell they know much on Racing Pigeons, but doesn't give them the right to throw Darts at me.... It seems also that you have said in the past that you will be obtaining your Racers from Warren, so feel that it would make you & Warren very Bias. Most of the Ole Timers that I grew up & Raced with can spot a problem very shortly in a Loft, being it Medical or otherwise as they have been hands on Racing for so long.... It also bothers me that a few on our forum call 500-600Mi. DAY BIRDS Marathon Races!!! They seem to keep comparing this to 1,000mi-2,000mi. races that is just not the case... I've had many 600mi.DAY BIRDS win, or right in the hunt at 125mi.through, 300mi. Races. You & Warren seem to state that it cost too much to ship birds to these races. I would estimate that it cost me under $1,000 to ship a 13 Race Old Birds Series all the way through counting (Gas) training, shipping, feed, Meds., Chips, etc. It seems to me these so called Yong Bird Specialist pay alot more than that buying new birds just to fly 7-8 Races a yr.. I have raced many birds 35-40 Races in there lifetime. before stocking. What do they do with these YB's that don't make good Racers after they're done with these few Races? Sell them?? IMO it is a waste of Pigeons.. Many in-between YB's make Superior Oldbird Racers, & you can take that as Fact.. Dan I can tell you are a very good man & will make an Xlint Racer when-ever ya get that Loft finished..... Oh & just a little extra thought, I have never Bought a Racing Pigeon, & have Never Sold a Racing Pigeon.. Many of us Ole Racers flew this as a Sport, not as I won this much $$$, or I sold this bird for this much $$$$..... If our sport dies, it will be because of GAMBLING$$$$, BUYING OUTRAGOUS PRICE BIRDS, not because of Shipping Cost. Big writings on birds winning one or two Races & winning $$$ for these few short races doesn't make them a Champion, but Pretty Pictures, & BS, etc. sell a lot of Racing Pigeons today.......... Enough for today. Lets Race Forever. I know we are way off topic, but some things need to be replied to that are in this post....
Happy


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Learning,

It is in the questioning that knowledge is found. Blindly following the ways of the past simply because "that is the way it has always been done" simply leads to dogma and ritual. Now don't go reading into this that I am saying there is nothing to be learned from the masters of the past or present. 

*Thats why I said,* "find a mentor take what you can from them and add your own knowledge to it".

It is through a mentor that you learn the basic's, then absolutly read all the books try different methods for yourself and use what works best for you. But you need the basic's first to build upon. 

It's like going straight to college level classes before you have taken Kindergarden through 12 grade, your doomed to failure. 

It is the same with pigeon racing you need the basic's of health, feeding, selection for racing and/or breeding stock and training down, before you try...... for instance if you were to try the lighting or darkening systems or widowhood for that matter. 

Personally I like the natural system, it works the best for my work schedule. My brother who fly's in the same club as I do uses a modified form of widowhood, its works the best for his schedule. even though we use two sepparete systems in the loft environment. the training system we use is vertually identical..... it's not uncommon for my birds to beat his one week and for his to beat mine the next. 

Course you could walk into ether of our lofts and the birds are virtual clones of each other. This is due to the fact that if I have a bird that does extremily well on the 200 for instance it gets crossed with his bird that did well at the same distance from the year before and visa versa. You can do the same thing from within your own loft.

Even had we not brought in our bloodlines from similar sources, over time the lines have become closer. The key in my opinion is not to allow them to get to close and loose the hybred vigor that comes from crossing. Thats also why you need a good mentor to help you avoid the pitfalls of not knowing when and how to outcross, just to mention one of many pitfalls that you will cross. 

Trust me on this, it's not if, but when you try the wrong system or bring in the wrong types of birds to cross into your bloodlines. It could set you back for several years in your breeding alone. Been there done that, its no fun! 

Anyway as always, Its just my opinion
Lawman


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Happy I was not throwing darts/ rocks at you. I was just saying Trentons have won races. And that NO blood line after leaving the strain maker stays the same . It just remains as base line. I try to respect people here And Each person Has an idea Yes I talk on breeding and such I feel a person should work on building there birds. NOT just some name and paper. So agin If I offened you I am sorry Thaks for pointing it out I will be more aware to your feelings.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Happy said:


> ......I like costructive opinions from those that do the work, not just fly YB's & races to only 300-350mi. & many of these people have Loft Managers, S**t Cleaners, etc..!!.....
> 
> I also Regret that I can't make a post/answer a question on here to someone without Warren or R lee making a comback at me 2 fold. Warren has admitted that he only flys YB's & R E Lee hasn't raced now for many yrs....
> 
> ...


Hello Happy,  

First of all I to am sorry if my my stated views on anything has hurt your feelings.  

My intention is not, and has not been to make a comeback 2 fold and throw darts at you, or anyone else. To ask questions, exchange views, or offer a different perspective, should not be taken as an attack or throwing darts, either on these pages, or in life in general. Please do not get defensive if I disagree with something.

I do think you misunderstood some of my points however, and perhaps other readers may as well, so I will try to clear a few things up, in as politically correct way as possible, in spite the fact that we have gone way off topic....which I am suppose to help moderate, and not contribute to steering us wayyyyy off topic even more.... 

I do not make any apologies for being a "YB Specialist", or a One Loft specialist, or for having valuable staff who assist in running the SFL USA enterprize, that is who I am and what I do. If my particular racing discipline is of no value or interest to the reader, then they can make a choice to simply ignore or disregard my contribution.

My reference to the decline in the participation in the 600 mile events by a growing list of combines, and my possible explanation, had nothing to do with the cost to the fancier. It has to do with the increasing cost's to the Combine. In our Combine as an example, OB racing is run at an econmic loss, it is only able to operate because of the "profits" from the YB fliers. Doing the math on 100 members shipping birds to 9 YB races with the longest being 300 miles....or......60 members shipping to 9 OB races, with 500 and 600 mile events, one need not be a CPA to figure out which race series will have the highest transportation expense, and which series is more economically viable. In many Combines today, the OB series could not stand by itself. That's my view, plain and simple..but don't get offended over it. That is simply the part which is dieing off the fastest, right along with the average AU member which is about 60.


As far as money and sports, I don't think it is fair to just pick on racing pigeons. What sport has not been affected by the advent of the fact that it has become Big Business ? Remember when hitting that little white ball around was just for fun ? Tiger Woods made $100,000,000 in the last 12 months... Maybe once upon a time, people raced horses for fun, but where would the horse racing industry be today, without cash prizes ? It is common practice for horses to be rated based on their purse winnings. I see nothing wrong with stating that a pigeon has won* X* number of dollars or their offspring has produced* X* number of dollars in cash winnings. 

One of the crosses that a successful One Loft Race specialist or breeder must bear, is the resentment and/or envy that some people have towards those making some money from successful racing/breeding activites. I know this is also true with other sports, when people with perhaps a touch of class envy, complain that no player is worth *X * amount of money. Don't know why that upsets some people, but it does....but money and sports is a fact of life. 

The fact of the matter is, that around the world, the racing of pigeons for cash prizes, has become an aspect of this sport which is here to stay. For those who have already been successful in business or their profession, competitive One Loft pigeon racing offers the opportunity for not only spirited competition, but financial rewards as well. *For many people, flying pigeons in order to win a diploma, is all they have ever known, and that is OK, that is their "hobby". *For a large and growing number of people, enjoying the fun and excitement of a pigeon race with the added bonus of maybe paying off the house and/or car, takes this hobby to the level of a sport like professional horse racing...and in my mind that is OK to. The sport of horse racing has not died because of gambling, cash prizes or high priced stallions....and neither will pigeon racing.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Hi Happy,

I guess it is the curse of my existance that I can't say anything without somebody either reading more into it or taking it the wrong way. Happy, I never intended to give the impression that I had any knowledge that should be taken seriously on this forum. Perhaps it has been a mistake for me to even try to respond to some of the posts people have put up because as you point out, I have no practical experience to back anything up. I have never tried to hide that fact in any way from anybody. I have provided a personal opinion...nothing more, nothing less. 

The one area that does fall into the scope of my experience is the area of how we learn and our predisposition to let others do it for us. I see this as a trememndous threat to us as Americans and specifically, to us in the pigeon sport. It is with this in mind that I have responded to certain posts that I felt were in need of some perspective from the individuals standpoint. I am not one that will sit here and spout off all of the dos and don'ts as it pertains to pigeon racing because, to be quite honest, I don't have a clue! I am learning as quickly as I can, but there is little I could possibly share with anyone that would be of any consequence. If I have come across in a manner that suggests differently then, I can assure you, that was *never* my intent.



Happy;235540[B said:


> _].... It seems also that you have said in the past that you will be obtaining your Racers from Warren, so feel that it would make you & Warren very Bias. _[/B] Happy


Now...as for the quote above, I can not remember ever saying anything to this effect. I have learned a tremendous amount from Warren through this forum, as countless others have also, but I have never said that I was obtaining anything from him. If I am fortunate enough at some point to own pigeons that are of the quality that Warren has in his loft I assure you it will be because they fit into a genetic concept of what I want to build a family around...not because of any bias.

I think it is time for me to clam up and just finish my loft, get on with starting my racing career and sit back and enjoy the fireworks... instead of being the cause!  

Take Care,

Dan


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Again Learning,

Glad to hear you say this, "I never intended to give the impression that I had any knowledge that should be taken seriously on this forum. Perhaps it has been a mistake for me to even try to respond to some of the posts people have put up because as you point out, I have no practical experience to back anything up. I have never tried to hide that fact in any way from anybody. I have provided a personal opinion...nothing more, nothing less". 

As you stated you have not tried to make yourself an expert of any type on this forum. However others on your behalf did try too. They did so by stating all of the other things you have excelled at and thereby trying to state that becuse you are an expert in those area's you must be in this one.

Personnaly I wish you nothing but good luck with your birds. Oh and by the way, It appears perhaps you do already have a mentor of sort's.  I may not always agree with him, but Warrens not a bad choice none the less. 

Lawman


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Fancyfowl4ever said:


> Hi, I aquired 3 Young Racers which are supposed to be of the Trenton Bloodline. I have no clue about bloodlines, I do not race my birds, but I did need new blood and those were the only birds at the whole sale which were labeled as homers and acctually looked like some too.
> What is the Trenton Bloodline about? They do look like some REALLY nice birds.


 HI FANCYFOWL4EVER, I just thought that you might like to know a little of the backround of the TRENTON strain. CONRAD A. MAHR is the founder of the Trenton strain, around 1888 or 1889 he recieved a pair of pigeons of the Gus Offerman strain. The cock of this pair was banded 137 TRENTON this is the bird that the Trenton family was built on. The Offerman strain was built on birds from the Mc CLUTAIN strain,and the birds of Heni Saffle.The Heni Saffle strain was founded on the birds of Baron Ulen who is the fancier credited with having developed the first reliable strain of racing pigeons derived from other varieties of pigeons this was around 1850 or 1860...............By the late 1930's the Trenton strain was on it's way out of the racing picture. Now if the Trentons were still around in the pure state,they would so inbred that I feel they would be useless in todays racing but thats my opinion. .GEORGE


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## Fancyfowl4ever (Oct 6, 2006)

Thanks everyone. 
Since I do not race(or Show) and could somewhat care less what bloodlines I have, as long as I have purebred birds that are strong, healthy and smart enough to outwit our local hawks/falcons I am happy.
I was just wondering about the line cause I wanted to know why it would be so important to write it onto the box. It didn't help much with selling them for more tho. Pigeon prices were in the low and I got those 3 for just $12. I'll post pics of them if anyone wants to see.
Maybe you can tell me the colour then too. One I think is an AshRed but the other 2 are a solid Orange colour.

Fancy4forever


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Fancyfowl4ever said:


> ......as long as I have purebred birds that are strong, healthy and smart enough to outwit our local hawks/falcons I am happy.......
> I was just wondering about the line cause I wanted to know why it would be so important to write it onto the box........
> 
> Fancy4forever


 There is no way to tell from the information that you have provided if the birds that you purchased for $3 each are *"purebred"* anything.....or are strong, or healthy, or smart enough to outwit a hawk. If these birds are homing pigeons and you let them out, they will return to the previous owner. 

There were differences in our views as you can see from the posts, but I think it is pretty safe to assume, that the birds you purchased are not *"Trentons"* from a historical perspective. However, if you do come across some racing pigeons which produce YB's which are smart enough, and swift enough that no falcon can catch them, then please do let us know. Because conventional wisdom is that no such strain or breed or line of pigeon is excempt from attacks from these bird's of prey.

But don't let this discourage you, my first pigeons were purchased for .25 cents at a local farmers market back when I was a kid. The line was known as the *"Barney" * line, because the stock was made up of wild ferals which would live in barns...... ....have fun and enjoy them. If you can take some pictures, we may be able to tell you the colors. They may very well be recessive reds and/or yellows or something in between.


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## Fancyfowl4ever (Oct 6, 2006)

These birds were sold at the auction and even the most gorgeous purebred archangles didn't go for more then $15 a pair(in the spring they go for $120 a pair). There were even some awesome norwich croppers that went for $7.50!!! Fall auction prices are always lowest of the low, esspecially with pigeons(even if they are from the most reputable breeder in the area). 

The breeder of these 3 birds usually doesn't sell any of his stock, but he ran out of bands for this year and couldn't band these guys, so he brought them to the auction. They are still young, occasionally I still get a squab squeal from them together with pathetic sounding coo.

When I buy birds, the bought birds never get to fly unless they are YB that didn't get to fly at their previous owner. 
I put their young into the 24/7 open loft and if they survive in there for a year I consider them worth breeding with. 

Its quite amazing with my current 3 breeding pairs that I have in the open loft, they see the hawk in the woods and when it takes off after them they go for a race around the property and then the pigeon comes back(without the hawk). 
I have watched my best male "Stumpy"(he is a one legged bird) wait on a rooftop until the goshawk was less then 15 m far away and then he just took a dive off the roof and went into a sprint and widened the distance between him and the hawk with no problem.

They all have their way to avoid predators. I believe you have to find and start of with birds that are smarter then the predators, because I have noticed the young birds are copying the behaviour/techniques of their parents. 
Yes, there are the occasional dumb YBs that don't learn so well but they wont last long.
Its all learned behaviour, if selecting and breeding quick and easy learners can consider them a strain then thats what I am doing.

I had 0 losses to predators of both YB and old birds from my open loft flock this year. Only bird I have lost this year was a YB that was being pursuit by a hawk and slammed through one of our windows. 

My birds have great Speed and some even learn some more acrobatic techniques to get away from a predator(free falling, sudden direction change etc).


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

not too long ago,a fellow named Haffner introduced a little new blood into his trentons ,,and became THE MAN TO BEAT !!he called them abilenes


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

There is a gentelman in Kansas thet is still racing TRENTONS of yesteryear and winning, the Oshaben trentons are as good as they get.... once u see one u will know they are trentons...


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

hilltop said:


> There is a gentelman in Kansas thet is still racing TRENTONS of yesteryear and winning, the Oshaben trentons are as good as they get.... once u see one u will know they are trentons...


Are you talking about Jim Mellecker, in Dodge City, KS?


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

I will have to look up his name,, seems like it was Art something//// i know for many years he was #1....


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## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

There is a Trenton website called American Trenton Breeders club or ATB, It is easy to look up on line, also type in Oshaben Trenton under search and you will see some True to type Trentons! I know there are those who say there are no True Trentons anymore. I would be willing to bet that their eyes are brown and there is a very good reason for that. I knew Ed Oshaben my entire life and he was VERY Serious about mantaining a True Trenton.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I got a pair from his daughter back when eggbid was going, a pair of yellow birds. They wont win a race I just like the color. I crossed the hen with a Fabry and kept 1 bird it has come home from 100 mi and it only took 4 days. I am going to wait till it is 3 years old to really train it.
Dave


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hilltop said:


> I will have to look up his name,, seems like it was Art something//// i know for many years he was #1....


Art Nemachek I believe was his name. An old friend/flyer got his start in racing pigeons from him back in the 1970s. Trentons. And He might even have a few left but he stopped flying/racing in the late 1980s. But kept his birds . I still say it would be hard to have any pure trentons in todays times. Sure a person could breed some look a likes. But look how long trentons have been around And yes some old breeders Myer. nemachek If i spelled his last name right. It is just to long of a time frame and a small family line to HAVE 100 % trenton birds. Being the startin name was made one 1 cock bird. Just think say 100 years with 1 base line bird crossed over and then birds spread across the world. Keeping any line pure has to be hard. Now out cross the line then bring the line back closer even that is a 5 year program each cross line And its still not pure but rather close. Base line features sure that can be maintained But direct line Quality is hidden and gets passed up. Good to believe in something though.


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks for the help, I am beginning to show my age,LOL,,u seem to be :died in the wool: that the American flyers are flying mixed familys,,,I guess all were mixed in their developement...however i am sure many are still true, to their beginnings, trentons,sion, Idont think everybody mixed their pure strains........just a thought !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Perhaps not all were crossed. But remember how long it has been since the birds were orginaly bred up. And then times the breeding pairs And how many generations of breeding has gone on. Even out crossing then bring back to the line Just as cross breed line then bring back to the chosen breed line. It most often is a 5 year venture. And in the breeding loft cross lines are made and pure lines are bred. But Agin time runs out With out fresh blood. As even close inbred 1 less fertile birds And shorter year to fertile. Then drop in body size. Then deformitys. Loose feathers. Ect. So controled out cross Then also when the birds are sold away from the orginal breeder/strain maker They are not selcted the same so the become bred different And most often either improved on or reduced in quality.


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

Like I said before u are [died in the wool] that every one crosses???? If so, why are the sions so easy to recognise??....still after all the yrs of breeding??....Trentons also,..u seem to be afraid of inbreeding also,according to your post,!.......I have bred a cock back to his daughter 7 times,each time the blood was closer to him, The only difference I found was,... on occasion I would get a pure white one,,,,,as for inbreeding, I read some where that a pr of mice bred 167 prs of youngsters,, and the youngsters were producing perfect youngsters,..???? thats inbreeding!!!! at its best....I been in pigeons 60 yrs and done some serious experimenting, I dont dissagree that many strains are crossed but to what extent??? trial an error ?? I have what were supposed to be pure Fabrys.....according to their papers a champion Imbrecht cock had been used 5or6 generations back...and some holy terrors were produced ..I considered it fresh blood....as the bird went back to the Fabry breeding pen and became surrounded by Fabrys...So there is some truth to what u say..but to a much lesser extent......like Trentons they may still hold some records,I know for years they held almost all race records....but fanciers have not cultivated and worked with them....so they have fallen to the wayside..... so to speak...u speak of loose feathers drop in size deformitys.. It would take forever to do this....on inbreeding {closeup} I found a real pleasing result .....beautiful size,and silky feathers began to show up....I had a pr of baldhead rollers that threw youngsters that had white heads but the bottom of the white had a bottlecap look...I mated these young back to their parents ..later on,,,, and the youngsters were SHOW stuff perfect in every way....and ...silkier than their parents......this was a pleasant suprise to me...and sparked my intrest in inbreeding...i have had other pleasant results in my yrs of expiermenting........more later....Harry


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Hilltop. No I was not afraid of inbreeding the birds. Did so for years Building and working family lines. What i said about things that happens Is as a family gets to tight You see the problems. ALSO with different family groups BUT same base line you can even out cross there. BUT IF you understand as you say. TRENTONS was based on just ! bird not a loft full of breeding pairs. Heck a racing homer looks like a racing homer a modena looks like a modena ECT. So a sion based bird May be bred to look like a sion based bird through selection.If you started in say 1951 1950 There sure was a lot of sion based birds And trenton based birds I have had birds that the famliy line traced back to the late 1800s. And information on the different cross lines That were used in development Through the years. And Today a family line maintianed by the sole breeder would still use an outside cross To keep the different needs. I am not runing any strain line down But how can you call something some line When the original person has been dead and gone this long. And pigeons are not mice You are saying you bred father daughter 7 straight generations With no seen faults Or was it you bred a father daughter for 7 seasons Which is much different. I am glad you like your birds And feel they are PURE Or have remained Pure line since you started breeding them That Is your facts. Trentons DID become world known for there great long distance racing The only American strain that went global But now would only be raised as that strain line Here in the U S A I used to think on solid line birds. But Relized To closing ones eyes to a name Or color brings failure Quality Trumps everything So introducing a cross line from time to time keeeps a pseron moving the right dirction. And still it can be a family line. fun conversation Keep the good work up in your loft glad you enjoy the birds


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

LOL,this is really good stuff..!! ..I see your points and even agree,on many..but for shure, we have prooved we are both pigeon men, and are concerened with the future !...more later...Harry


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

that is 7 times to his daughter,,,,out of his 6th daughter,,,and she was out of his 5 th..and so on, ..I said some serious expiermenting,,, the hens were very close [in blood ] to him


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