# Help Pigeon Bleeding



## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

My pet pigeon was bleeding. I finaly got it to stop. But Im afriad that it is only for now. He is also having problems pooping. Please can eny one help me. Thanks 

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CJ


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## pigeoncare (Apr 8, 2004)

Squeekers,
Please listen to me on this. 
1) If there is anyone in your area such as a person who has a pigeon coop, a pigeon feed store or a vet, get a canker medication like Spartrix and give your bird one pill a day for the first three days.
2)Get to a vet and buy some Baytril and give it to the bird according to the instructions.
3)Rub a little antibiotic ointment into the skin in the vent area where there are no feathers and also in the area near the legs that have no feathers but which should. Do that twice a day for 7 days.
You must do all three things.

[This message has been edited by pigeoncare (edited April 08, 2004).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

CJ .. that's real good advice that Pigeoncare has given you .. you really do need to get some help for your bird in the form of medicine as well as someone who is experienced with pigeons to have a look and find out for sure what is wrong. Sadly, there just isn't a lot we can do to help over the internet. Do be keeping this bird very warm, dry, and as stress free as possible. Please keep us posted.

Terry


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi really sorry to hear about your pigeon. Only thing I could suggest if the bleeding starts again, you can alway's scrap the cuttlefish into powder and apply that as an emergency to help stop the bleeding. Then you will need some anticeptic powder to make sure wound is clean and free from infection. Really do need to get to the cause of the problem. Is the pigeon eating correctly. I know that in baby pigeons if kept too hot/cold will more likely stop pooping if too hot, will become dhydrated (not sure for definate if this stops completly, but does use all the fluids which helps pass pooping) and if too cold the crop can't work properly. Sorry can't be of much more help. - Karen


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## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

Thanks for all your help. I might try bringing my bird in to the house at night, because I don't have a coop. And I just read that Pennyroyal is a poison, and I used it on him to get rid of some bird lice. Someone sad that they used it on there pigeons and I worked realy well. I am wondering if that is what might have started it. 

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CJ


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi there,

I would definitely bring the bird into the house so you can keep a close eye on your bird.

You can go to the pet store and get parakeet spray to kill lice and mites, being careful not to get in the eye.

Don't use anything on your pigeon without checking the safety of it, read the labels. It is definitely a possibility that might have caused the bleed.

I would still recommend you follow the advice of Pigeoncare and locate a pigeon expert. The bird should still be examined a.s.a.p. and may need meds.

Keep us updated.

Treesa


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## pigeoncare (Apr 8, 2004)

One fact can change the entire picture of what one thinks a problem could be. The use of Pennyroyal is a case in point. The missing skin could from burns. There is no use in trying to help this bird over the internet.


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## pigeoncare (Apr 8, 2004)

Side effects of Pennyroyal:
Pennyroyal has been associated with numerous toxicities and death. Dangerous reactions may occur if pennyroyal is taken by mouth or used on the skin. Usually, the first symptom of pennyroyal toxicity is stomach upset, including nausea, stomach cramping, burning in the throat and vomiting (sometimes containing blood). Liver and lung damage may also occur. Some people may experience rash and hives when pennyroyal is used on the skin. 


Using pennyroyal by mouth may cause loss of consciousness, coma, confusion, dizziness, fatigue, stiff muscles, fever, agitation, delirium, nerve pain, seizures, shock and death. Pennyroyal use may lead to vision abnormalities and hallucinations. Other adverse effects may involve low blood pressure or slow, irregular heartbeats; pennyroyal may reduce the urge to breathe. Kidney damage, urinary tract irritation, menstrual bleeding, abnormally low numbers of red blood cells and spontaneous abortion may also occur. 


Caution is advised if you take prescription drugs to control your blood sugar levels. Pennyroyal may lower blood sugar levels. In theory, pennyroyal may also increase the risk of bleeding. If you have diabetes or use anticoagulants (blood thinners) or antiplatelet drugs and are considering using pennyroyal, discuss this with your health care provider. In laboratory animals, pennyroyal has caused damage to many organs, including the brain, kidneys and liver.


Signs of overdose include nausea, vomiting, sweating, chills, fever, headache, ringing in the ears, dizziness, low blood pressure, difficulty swallowing, extreme thirst, rapid heartbeats, muscle spasms, restlessness, drowsiness, fatigue, tremor, excessive talkativeness, hallucinations, mania, seizures and coma. Be aware that many tinctures contain high levels of alcohol and should be avoided when driving or operating heavy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Good morning,

Please don't let anyone deter you from asking us for help if you can't get to a vet! *Of course it is important to try to help every pigeon we can over the Internet, that is what we are here for!* We may not always succeed or know all the answers, but we will at least try to point you in the right direction.

*All* the products that we use to medicate our pigeons can be toxic and even fatal in overdose. This includes sprays for parasites and wormers, so it is important to read the instructions carefully.

I know that Pennyroyal is recommended as a herbal remedy for pigeons, so what we need to do is to find out whether that was indeed the cause of Squeeker's illness or whether something else has caused it. We don't want to leap to conclusions and miss something.

What we need to know about the Pennyroyal is how much was given and how it was given (was it the oil? if diluted what it was diluted in? was it given internally or externally?) .

If a pigeon is bleeding the most important thing is to stop the bleed. Place a clean swab or even a clean piece of cloth over the wound and apply direct pressure. Keep the pigeon warm and quiet so that it doesn't experience stress. Make certain that he is having enough water, he must not get dehydrated.

Is Squeekers still bleeding? Is is from a single spot? Is it getting worse? Is he eating at all? Has he pooped? Is his crop full? Have you applied anything that could be considered an acid to the site of the bleed? Have there been any other changes in his food, medication or diet? If so, what changes?

Cynthia



[This message has been edited by cyro51 (edited April 10, 2004).]


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Pennyroyal oil is recommended for parasites: 
http://www.jamiegleave.freeserve.co.uk/herbspage.htm


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## pigeoncare (Apr 8, 2004)

"Please don't let anyone deter you from asking us for help if you can't get to a vet!"

Please read the posts. There is a vet.

"Of course it is important to try to help every pigeon we can over the Internet, that is what we are here for! We may not always succeed or know all the answers, but we will at least try to point you in the right direction."

Then point Squeekers in the direction of a vet and stop wasting the pigeon's valuable time by trying to be one. What is more important here, the site or the bird? 


"All the products that we use to medicate our pigeons can be toxic and even fatal in overdose. This includes sprays for parasites and wormers, so it is important to read the instructions carefully."

Please state what the antidote is.

"I know that Pennyroyal is recommended as a herbal remedy for pigeons, so what we need to do is to find out whether that was indeed the cause of Squeeker's illness or whether something else has caused it. We don't want to leap to conclusions and miss something."

No, don't leap and let the bird suffer. His skin is peeling off.

"What we need to know about the Pennyroyal is how much was given and how it was given (was it the oil? if diluted what it was diluted in? was it given internally or externally?)."

Why? What are you going to do with that information? What treatment do you recommend after you find out the dose given? What impurities are in this particular brand of Pennyroyal that may be the culprit here and what is the antidote? The bird preened. Of course it was taken into the system. You're not being a big help here.

"If a pigeon is bleeding the most important thing is to stop the bleed. Place a clean swab or even a clean piece of cloth over the wound and apply direct pressure. Keep the pigeon warm and quiet so that it doesn't experience stress. Make certain that he is having enough water, he must not get dehydrated."

Again, read the posts. The bird was bleeding continuously and then stopped. And what do you recommend if the bleeding was from the cloaca or higher? Where should the cloth go if that is the case?

Is Squeekers still bleeding? Is is from a single spot? Is it getting worse? Is he eating at all? Has he pooped? Is his crop full? Have you applied anything that could be considered an acid to the site of the bleed? Have there been any other changes in his food, medication or diet? If so, what changes?

Again, read the posts. He is having difficulty passing the droppings. You don't read. The Pennyroyal may have burned the bird's cloaca and you are asking if acid was put on the bleeding site? What good is it to know if the crop is full? The bird is not feeling well, probably in a lot of pain and probably not eating. What good is it to know if the bleeding got worse? Bleeds are very dangerous here and it doesn't matter if it is getting worse. A bleed is a bleed and it's serious.

If you don't know what you are talking about, stop wasting time and recommend taking the bird to a vet. You aren't a vet so stop acting like one. You don't see the bird so why are you asking all these questions while the bird continues to suffer? You apparently don't know when to offer help and when you shouldn't. I see that you are a moderator here. You should know better than to try to keep the bird here when the only hope is to get the bird to a vet.
If you want to parse my post, I'll parse yours. At least, I gave substance where you give only form.


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## pigeoncare (Apr 8, 2004)

Karen 210773
I didn't know about cuttlebone being able to stop bleeding and that is quite helpful. An alternative is to use ordinary flour.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pigeoncare,
We welcome all positive suggestions, advice, etc., in attempting to help another member & their birds, however, your reply to Cynthia's post was completely out of line. Pigeons.com was designed to help, NOT hurt, one another.

If you feel your reply to Cynthia's post is your way of a positive contribution to a situation, perhaps you need to find another group to be a part of.

Pigeons.com does not condone statements such as the ones you have made.
Cindy


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## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

There is no excuse for writing attacking messages like this, I thought we were here to try and help each other not to pick petty arguements.

>
If you don't know what you are talking about, stop wasting time and recommend taking the bird to a vet. You aren't a vet so stop acting like one. You don't see the bird so why are you asking all these questions while the bird continues to suffer? You apparently don't know when to offer help and when you shouldn't. I see that you are a moderator here. You should know better than to try to keep the bird here when the only hope is to get the bird to a vet.
If you want to parse my post, I'll parse yours. At least, I gave substance where you give only form.[/B][/QUOTE]<


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pigeoncarer said 'You aren't a vet so stop acting like one'

Err, should we assume pigeoncarer IS a vet, from his/her first reponse to this problem? 

Whether you are or not, you might consider that the reply you seemed to have taken such an irrational dislike to was many hours after the orginators last update - Pesonally, I would consider that by then further enquiry was quite in order and timely.

John (UK)


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## pigeoncare1 (Apr 10, 2004)

I already left this site so I had to re-register in order to leave this one last post. Apparently, it is fine to criticize a poster but not fine for the poster to respond to the criticism. It's obviously a one way street. I think that if you reread cyro51's post, it is barely veiled criticism with nothing contained therein to save that bird. I only came on to try to protect this bird. You all seem to have come on to protect one person. I think you will find that when one person claims to be right all the time, she is usually wrong most of the time. (Substance vs. form)


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## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

OK guys. I am wondering of Pennyroyal is always fatal or if there is a chanch of his recovery.







Squeelers is still bleeding and is seems to be coming from his bottom. but in not sure the exact spot. I dont realy know how to check if his crop is full. I havent applyed anything that is acidic. I used to feed him peas and rice (1/2). But now I feed him wild bird seed. If there is anything I can get for him insted of going to a vet, please tell me.

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CJ


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

CJ, the fact that you treated the pigeon with Pennyroyal does not mean that is the cause of bleeding. It could be caused by egg-binding, polyp, ulcer. This is why you need to either see a vet or examine it carefully and tell us what you find. 

Are you in Northern California?

Cynthia


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## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

Yes I am in CA. If i dont have too I dont want to take Squeekers to the vet. Ill have to pay and Im not sure if I have the money. If there is eny medication you know of that I can buy over the inernet or at a store that would be great. And can you tell if a pigeon is in pain. He lookes just fine and acts just fine (except when he poops, he really strains). My mom and dad wont let me bring Squeekers inside, so he has to stay in the cold. Is that really bad.


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CJ


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

It looks like Greenville is in the lower Sierra Mountains--it's still too cold there for outdoor lodging. If there is any way you can get the bird to the Bay Area I will take her.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you Dano .. I hope CJ will seriously consider your offer. Offers have also been made to pay for a vet visit for Squeekers .. we just need for CJ to take some positive action to help Squeekers at this point before it's too late. Sorry to be somewhat abrupt about this, but I honestly don't know what any of us can do beyond what has been offered.

Terry


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## wovenwoman (Jul 2, 2003)

You all seem to have come on to protect one person. I think you will find that when one person claims to be right all the time, she is usually wrong most of the time. (Substance vs. form)[/B][/QUOTE]

I notice this coward didnt have the guts to stand behind his/her words with an E Mail address. Typical of those with a big Ego.
Sorry you couldnt stay, let your hackles down and be a helpful contributor to the group. Sounds like you have some knowledge under your belt.
Namaste
Edie


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

"I notice this coward didnt have the guts to stand behind his/her words with an E Mail address. Typical of those with a big Ego."

You are exactly right Edie. 
A 'coward' indeed!!
This appears to be the work of an individual who also has very little, if any, self respect & most certainly NO respect for others.
Cindy


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

this bleeding pigeon has gone on way too long. the pigeon needs help i would go for dano7s offer.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

[This message has been edited by Lin Hansen (edited April 12, 2004).]


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hello everyone,

This whole situation is a shame....

From what I gather reading all the previous posts concerning this topic, CJ seems to be a young boy or girl, whose parents, unfortunately, will not pay for a vet or travel any type of distance to do anything for the bird. I also imagine they would not allow someone else to pay for the vet either.
It seems they just want nature to take its course, but unfortuantely, the bird is probably suffering in the meantime.

CJ, I feel sorry for you and your pigeon...it seems you are on your own in this.

I don't mean to be cruel, but if this pigeon does pass away, I would advise you to wait until you are older to get any more pets, pigeons included. No matter how well we take care of them, pets will get sick from time to time. And when that happens, you HAVE TO take them to a veterinarian for care and you have to be willing to spend the money it costs to help them. If your parents are not willing to do this and you are not able to do this yourself, please do yourself and any future pet a favor and wait until you are grown and have the ability and money to care for a pet yourself.

I truly wish you good luck with the pigeon and hope it gets well....I am sure you are doing your absolute best under difficult circumstances.

Linda


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Very well put, Linda.

Cynthia


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## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

Ya I think your right. But I will try to take realy good care of Squeekers. I will take him to the vet. 

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CJ


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is good! Please keep us updated!

Cynthia


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## fps (Apr 12, 2004)

Squeekers,
I think you have three threads going at once so hopefully, you will see this post.
As far as I can tell from your description, there are between 1 to 3 problems going on and the reason why there are up to 3, is that all of them could be caused by one reason. There could also be more than one reason.
Let's deal with the most important one first; vent pasting. That occurs when the droppings adhere to the vent. When that happens, the droppings that come afterwards, can't get out of the body and the backup can cause infection or poisoning. The reasons why vent pasting happens is either because there is bad hygiene wherever you keep the bird or infection, mainly in the kidney where the urates are too adhesive. No matter what the reason is, you have to clear the vent with wet cotton balls. Even if the bleeding comes from the vent, nothing else can be done until the vent is cleaned so that's the immediate thing to do.
No matter what the pasting was due to, an antibiotic is needed as soon as possible. If you cannot take the bird to a vet to get one, then go to a pet store and buy some Tetracyclin for birds and give it as directed. It isn't the best way of giving antibiotics but you have to do what you can.
The second problem seems to be bleeding coming from the vent. It's impossible to tell how high up the blood is coming from or if it's from the vent itself. If you could get the bird to a vet, a steroid shot may be needed to stop the bleeding but again, if you can't do this, then get an antibiotic.
The third problem seems to be skin peeling. This may be an infection. It might me from the Pennyrose but it's difficult to say. That's why you may be dealing with between 1 and 3 different causes. I don't use Pennyrose to get rid of parasites and don't know anything about it. Use a poultry dusting powder with a Pyrethrin base because for sure, it doesn't harm the bird.
Use of an antibiotic ointment is not the best thing you can do but an antibiotic cream is good and vital for this bird. Use it on the infected areas and directly on the vent.
Do what you can as soon as you can, especially clearing the vent so the droppings can exit.


[This message has been edited by fps (edited April 12, 2004).]


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## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

Thanks I think that is what the problem is. But the poop is so crusted on that Iam afraid that it going to hurt him really bad. I have tryed to use water to sofen up the dryed poop, but it dosent help.I there something else that will help to get it off. I think that there is an infection, cause there is green stuf in his vent. When I get it cleaned off, should I put atibac stuff in it? 
Thanks

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CJ


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## fps (Apr 12, 2004)

Sqeekers,
It's very important to get that stuff off and clear the vent. Of course, you want to try to do it without causing bleeding. It takes a while for the dried droppings to become moist enough with soaking before you will be able to get them off. Can you put your bird into a warm water bath and hold him for a while. After a while, try to remove the droppings with your fingers. If it's stubborn, keep bathing him. If you have to pull some feathers that are holding some of the droppings, do it. 
If what you see in green droppings is infection or backed up droppings, it's too early to tell.
Keep working the vent until it's clear.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello CJ,
* It's been 4 days now that you have been posting about Squeeker.
* The same advice has been offered to you over & over again. 
* Cynthia has even offered to pay the vet bill. 
* Linda has located a vet near you.

She posted this information on your other thread & I am pasting that information here:
Cynthia (Cyro51) and CJ
I have looked on the internet and the closest vet to CJ is located 4.5 miles from her town of Greenville.
It is: Dr. Heidi Woog, 
258 Old Arlington Road, 
Crescent Mills, California 95934
Tele No. 530 257 4242.

CJ -- Is this the vet you contacted?
Cynthia -- If this is the vet, here is the info you were looking for....
Sorry to butt in, but this is getting ridiculous.....
Good luck 
Linda
PS....According to MapQuest, it is an 11 minute drive from Main Street in Greenville

Please give this vet a call & see about getting Squeeker in to see her.
Cindy


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hey Cindy,

By the way, this poor bird has been having problems alot longer than four days....

CJ first posted back on April 3rd (!!!) asking about constipation problems with this pigeon, so Sqeekers has not been well for at least ten days....

Hope CJ takes everyones advice and takes the poor bird to the vet asap.

Linda


[This message has been edited by Lin Hansen (edited April 13, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Lin Hansen (edited April 13, 2004).]


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You are right, Linda, it has been suffering for some time.

If a pigeons' vent is pasted it won't be able to poop...the poop will build up inside it because it has no exit. It is SO IMPORTANT to clear that vent.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Linda, you are exactly right. I have no idea why I said 4 days. I stand corrected.

Everything has been taken care of for CJ to take Squeeker to the vet. There is absolutely no reason for anymore delays.
Cindy


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hey Cindy,

Sorry, I did not post the previous message to correct you...I am sure you said four days because that is when this particular thread first started (makes perfect sense, not a mistake.)

I only noticed that CJ's first thread (a different one) concerning constipation was first posted on April 3rd.

It is soooo easy to get confused when there are several different threads running concerning the same subject.

Again, did not mean to correct you....I wouldn't DARE!!! (LOL) All you pigeon experts have more knowledge and advice concerning pigeons in your little fingers than this newbie (me!) has in her whole head!! LOL

Linda

[This message has been edited by Lin Hansen (edited April 13, 2004).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

No problem Linda.
Seriously, please don't hesitate to draw my attention to something I may have overlooked or incorrectly posted.
The only time I get my feathers ruffled is when someone addresses me,or any other member, disrespectfully. 

"It is soooo easy to get confused when there are several different threads running concerning the same subject."

Exactly. And at my age, I don't need any help with confusion. lol. 
We do try to discourage members from opening more than one thread on a particular subject. 
Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Terry has found a vet that will treat Squeekers and accept a payment by credit card from me. All you have to do is get him to the vet and let me know what is happening so I can telephone my credit card details through.

I have e-mailed you the vets details. If you don't receive the e-mail then contact me or Terry (remember I am in the UK where night has already fallen, so if it is more than 2 hours after this post appears phone Terry and I will pick the thread up tomorrow.)

PLEASE ACT QUICKLY!

Cynthia


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## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

Do you realy think this is nessecary? I realy want you to pay for Squeekers vet exame. But I realy want to do something for him...My parents say that there is no way thay enyone other than me or them. "We aren't going to take other peoples money for this." My mom wants not to stop talking to you because you are sugestign things that we cant do. Im not making excuses. Ill take the advice you have given me sofar and go with that. bye.

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CJ


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## Squeekers (Apr 3, 2004)

Thanks for all your guyzez help. And expecilly thanks to fps. I did what you said. And now I can see that I think Squeekers is going to be OK. My dad used to keep pigeons and says that he looks good. But just one more question. Is a pigeons bottom usualy look like flesh neer the center?


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CJ


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

CJ, Please, please, please ask your mother or father to call me collect on my cell #. That would be (949) 584-6696. That's how serious this is .. that I am willing to put my cell # out here on the internet. All we are trying to do is get help for you and Squeekers .. this isn't charity, it isn't a bunch of weirdos, it is simply a group of people who truly care about the welfare of your bird. You have people all over the United States, Canada, England, and many other places all over the world interested in and concerned about this. We are only trying to help.

The vet I spoke with today is Dr. Bob Nelson in Chester .. he seemed to be an extremely nice and caring person and would be happy to treat Squeekers and was also willing to go along with our rather unusual payment procedure. You and your family owe it to Squeekers to take advantage of this .. PLEASE!

If you and your family don't want us involved, then you can contact Dr. Nelson yourself at (530) 258-7264. He is located at 131 Stone Ave., Chester CA 96020. He told me he is about 30 minutes away from you and Squeekers.

I do understand that you are feeling a lot of pressure about this, and I am sorry for that. I've offered the best I can do, and that is to try to talk to your folks at my expense. Please take me up on this offer.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi CJ .. yes a pigeon's bottom looks like flesh near the center because it is .. that's the anus .. where the poop comes out.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ok all .. this thread has gone to two pages .. I'm closing it and opening a new one titled "CJ and Squeekers Continued".

Terry


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