# Breeding w/o peas....



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

The only peas I can find I'm not sure will be safe for my birds..... The camo overall wearing bearded guy behind the counter at the local feed market tells me that they're "inoculated", but can't tell me anything about whether or not they've been sprayed with any type of insecticide . (when I asked him I think I saw smoke come from his ears as his eyes took on the appearance of static on a TV screen) The tag on the bag doesn't say anything about insecticide but these peas are meant to be planted, not fed as bird feed. 


My question(s):

Exactly what does "inoculated" mean?
If the tag on the bag doesn't say anything about insecticide is it safe for my birds?
Are peas really necessary for healthy young?
Could I buy some type of turkey pellet to replace them?
If so what kind?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

roxtar said:


> The only peas I can find I'm not sure will be safe for my birds..... The camo overall wearing bearded guy behind the counter at the local feed market tells me that they're "inoculated", but can't tell me anything about whether or not they've been sprayed with any type of insecticide . (when I asked him I think I saw smoke come from his ears as his eyes took on the appearance of static on a TV screen) The tag on the bag doesn't say anything about insecticide but these peas are meant to be planted, not fed as bird feed.
> 
> 
> My question(s):
> ...


I would run....and run fast......without any feed from this place.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Roxtar,

I know of several racers in my area that use comercialy available turkey pellets during breeding season. I personelly prefer to use "Calf Mana" supplement during breeding season. it comes in pellet form as well. Ether will bring up your protein levels without having to use peas.

Lawman


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Those peas are definitely not fit for human and/or animal/bird consumption.

You can also crumble an dry organic dog 
food in their seed, that doesn't have any additives or fillers, as it makes a fine meat protein for the breeding season and will supply all their amino acid profile, along with their seed/legumes and long grain organic rice..


----------



## learning (May 19, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Those peas are definitely not for comnsumption.
> 
> You can also crumble an dry organic dog in their seed, that doesn't have any additives or fillers, as it makes a fine meat protein for the breeding season and will supply all their amino acid profile, along with their seed/legumes and long grain organic rice..



I am assuming you meant dog _*FOOD!*_ With all the concern about culling I would hate to see someone get offended by the thought of us chopping up our canine companions to feed our birds!  

Dan


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

learning said:


> I am assuming you meant dog _*FOOD!*_ With all the concern about culling I would hate to see someone get offended by the thought of us chopping up our canine companions to feed our birds!
> 
> Dan



  
Now THAT'S funny.........


----------



## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Innoculated peas means they have been treated against diseases that can provent them from sprouting/growing after planting. No, cannot be used of feed for anyone or anything.
Daryl


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Okay, I'm imagining a dry, organic dog   ! too funny.


----------



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I was wondering if dry organic cat would work as well!!    
*************************food***********************


----------



## learning (May 19, 2006)

ace in the hole said:


> I was wondering if dry organic cat would work as well!!
> *************************food***********************


Not being a big fan of our feline companions, I somehow find this thought less offensive!  

Dan


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

learning said:


> Not being a big fan of our feline companions, I somehow find this thought less offensive!
> 
> Dan



OH Dan.......better be careful there buddy........Shi/Mr. Squeaks is gonna give you down the road for THAT comment!!


----------



## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I would run....and run fast......without any feed from this place.


LOL! Right behind you!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

learning said:


> I am assuming you meant dog _*FOOD!*_ With all the concern about culling I would hate to see someone get offended by the thought of us chopping up our canine companions to feed our birds!
> 
> Dan





OOPS!!!!  Definitely meant dog food...


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

This discussion started out about peas, and I suspect it is because of a desire to increase the protein level. I would caution you that there are a number of fanciers out there that promote this concept of feeding a high percentage of protein to their breeders. Sometimes this is done by feeding peas or high protein pellets. 

I don't really know what the best ideal percentage should be for breeders at this stage, but I suspect that this very high protein concept is in fact disinformation. If you are feeding a mix where the protein is in excess of 16% then I think you could be doing more harm then good.

I think this stems from human body builders who can benefit from higher protein levels when weight lifting and such. However, we are dealing with pigeons here, and it is a totally different situation. 

If one decides to go ahead with a very high protein diet, keep in mind that this goes counter to what many Grand Masters of the racing pigeon sport practice and suggest.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Now Now Warren,

You know or should know that it is just like eyesign, or any other theory. For every person you find against it you will also find one for it and one or two on the fence. 

Now if the person typically feeds a low protein mix to their birds as I do with my pigeon mix. Then the addition of a protein pellet or mix brings the protein level up during times of breeding. the rest of the year your right a high protein mix is not neccessarily needed.

Course we've had this discussion before as I recall.

Lawman


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lawman said:


> Now Now Warren,
> 
> You know or should know that it is just like eyesign, or any other theory. For every person you find against it you will also find one for it and one or two on the fence.
> 
> ...


Now Lawman....how did I know that you would respond to my post...........

In the pigeon game you can always find a fancier who will disagree with you on any given pigeon subject. And fanciers have done some pretty stupid things over the years, and there will always be people who will follow them over the cliff, while others wait in line and others are sitting on a fence somewhere, debating which line to get into. 

What I am suggesting in regards to this pigeon subject, is that a fancier research what information is available, and make an informed choice on the matter. Unlike the harmless past time of studying eye ball's, the feeding of very high protein feed can in fact be harmful to your pigeons. Taken to extremes, it can even be fatal.

Dr Colin Walker has written a number of articles and is well known throughout the sport. On his web site, he talks of a case where a fancier fed a very high protein diet consisting of turkey pellets for an extended period of time, and it *killed his pigeons*. Dr. Walker suggests no more then 16 to 18% protein.

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/

Dr. David Marx, DVM, is probably America's best know pigeon veterinarian. An accomplished racing pigeon flyer, he was the founding president and a two-term president of the Association of Pigeon Veterinarian's. He has a web site at: http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drdavidmarx/wintertime.cfm

In 1992 he began a monthly column in the Racing Pigeon Digest on pigeon health matters and issues, which are now edited and compiled in a handy reference book. In "A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health" Dr. Marx discusses the mistakes of feeding too high a percentage of protein and he is more conservative and believes that 16% should be the maximum amount during breeding.

Now this is just the medical community, if one reseraches the feeding practices of some very well known fanciers with an International following, then one will find that many of them also talk of the dangers of a diet to high in protein. 

One can do what he likes, but I just wanted to bring this to the attention of those readers who were not aware of the negative view some have regarding very high protein diets. So just because one of your club members is feeding high protein turkey pellets, does not mean you should be doing the same.


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

So upping the protein and calcium content of the feed/grit isn't necessary at egg laying time? I should at least be giving them as much of whatever I'm feeding as they want right?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Upping the protein should be done 2 weeks before breeding and can be slightly lowered once the eggs are layed. Many protein foods are hard on their digestive system and cause the liver to work harder, so you don't want it too high. Parents should have access to food at all time.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi All,

Dr Colin Walker does write that extended periods of time with high protein will hurt your birds........ I believe that is true!

However most of us do not breed year round, nor do we give high amounts of protein year round. My breeding season for the year begins mid Dec. and is done by the end of March. I have one older Cock bird that I don't even try to breed until the begining of summer. He has a much easier time of it during the summer months and it shows in the breeding. So he and his mate are the only exception to this method. 

I do give higher protein levels during the breeding season along with several different types of calcium and grit. My experience is that the birds will only eat what they need, the rest they will leave right there on the feed pan.

I don't recall Dr Walker or Dr Marx, ether of them saying what they think is an extended period of high protein. I also don't recall ether of them saying what they thought was an overdose of protein on a short term ether. The only thing I recall is that they both believe an ideal level is at or near 16%. 

Hey Warren, what was that you said about those you wright books? Wasn't it something along the lines of those you can do, don't talk about it or rarely do and those who can't wright books?

Like I said for every expert who doesn't like a method be it eye sign, wing theory, back theory, single tail theory, light or darkening methods....ect. ect. there is one who does. 

I think alot of concideration has to be taken as to the type and quality of food is given to and/or availble to be given to the birds as well. When concidering the amount of and type of protein to be added to the feed mix.

Lawman


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

> Like I said for every expert who doesn't like a method be it eye sign, wing theory, back theory, single tail theory,


I think that nutrition is a little more than theory in that the results of a change in diet are much more visible and more consistant throughout the while flock. (i.e. ANY birds not fed right won't perform up to par whereas I'm sure there are birds out there with horrible eyesign that have won lots of races)

I've looked at all my birds and their skin seems nice and pink. They're all doing great w/o the peas right now, my only concern was after the eggs hatch and they're feeding youngsters. Seems like last year they ate more grit and peas than feed.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Roxtar,

Your right nutrition is more than just thery, however even the experts disagree on the exact demensions that should be used in applying it.

I personnely give my birds a custom mix year round. There is a racing mix and a breeding mix, nether of which has peas of any type in it. The one thing I have found is, almost all of the "EXPERTS" agree that peas are hard for the birds to digest. So during breeding season I supplement the birds with other forms of protein other than peas.

I"ll try to explain it this way: go to your grocery store look at the eggs. Do you know how the chicken farms are able to have eggs all with well formed hard shells? By adding different forms of protein to the feed. If they did not they would soon go out of business. Even the small local farmers give there chickens laying mash (high protein) to aid in the production of so called natural eggs.

Now I have never said to give protein at high levels year round and never will. But "higher levels" of protein just before and during breeding is a plus in my book. Everyone will have to work out for themselves what they think is the right amount based on the type of suppliements and base feed they are giving to their birds.

Lawman


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I am one of those over the cliff guys when it comes to pellets, but the pellets I feed are only 16% protien. I only use about 20% pellets and only during breeding. I use purina chicken breeding pellets. One bag last me all season. What I like about them is the added calcium and vitamins and minerals. I started last year using them just before my second round. My first round was not that sucessful. It was cold, I had some freezing issues and a few died in the shell. The second round all 24 eggs hatched except one. It was not filled. The third round the same. I had great luck with the pellets. The breeding mix I buy is 14% protien. I think pellets in moderation add some benefit to breeding. Yes and my mix does have peas, corn and safflower on top of many other grains. A good viariety. Don't forget fresh grit often during breeding season. I have read the dog food articles and such. I always try and resort to my M.I.S.S. strategy for breeding. Make It Simple Stupid. Good luck. Yes I will be adding pellets about the time the birds go together. 

Randy


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Randy, 

When I was in the ARMY your MISS (make it simple stupid) system was KISS, Keep it simple stupid. So around my house it's KISS  

Lawman


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I will have to use the Kiss strategy on my sixth graders. Simple is key. 

Randy


----------



## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Right now my birds hardly touch any peas at all they pick around them and usually i have to dump the peas and some corn back into the mix, i let the birds take what they will and started to add pellets lately, the original poster was concerned about peas, I'd say don't worry about it the birds will take what they like and no worse for it! Especially since most are breeding birds right now and the birds know better than us on what they need, just give them a variety and let them at it!


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2007)

this time of year in NJ I use pellets and a grain mixture with peas tryng to cover my bases for overall health and nothing gets left over at all , I rely on a half and half mixture of grain and pellets and nothing gets left behind but during the summer its the pellets that they tend not to eat not the peas


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

I have said before and am about to say it again. I think if there is a seed in your mixture and your birds dont eat that seed, replace it with safflower. It is the miracle seed in my eyes. I dont use pellets because, although they are very healthy they can make the pigeons very thirsty and to me it is almost un-natural. Not saying anyone is wrong, I really dont want anyone to think that, but I am wondering when you feed pellets do you pigeons take in alot of water making them heavier and bloated?


----------



## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

I use cage cups for my breeders and so far have not noticed any heavy drinking, I change the water daily!


----------

