# what do ya do with ybs?



## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

racer fly around 30 to 100 youngbirds each year right?
what do ya do with them after the young bird and old bird race? i wounder?


i know i flyer here in my area he fly 97 ybs, he only lost 3 so far.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

That is what I wonder too...
These people breed hundreds of pigeons and keep them all I guess.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Most good lofts would keep the best get rid of the rest. Now some keep every bird that made it through the races. But that is not a way to build a loft of decent pigeons


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

re lee said:


> Most good lofts would keep the best get rid of the rest. Now some keep every bird that made it through the races. But that is not a way to build a loft of decent pigeons


so they will even sell some of the good bird that made it back home?
if it was me i'll just keep all of them and fly them for old birds every year LOL


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

You will not get many race people to answer that question. I only keep a few pair of breeders and the young that dont come home I would like to think they are in barns accross Nebraska and Kansas. I have my doubts. The rest that dont quite make the team I give to a friend that has those short faced owls to use as pumpers. I have met people that raise 100+ birds every year and I dont even want to think what they do.
Dave


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Crazy Pete said:


> You will not get many race people to answer that question. I only keep a few pair of breeders and the young that dont come home I would like to think they are in barns accross Nebraska and Kansas. I have my doubts. The rest that dont quite make the team I give to a friend that has those short faced owls to use as pumpers. I have met people that raise 100+ birds every year and I dont even want to think what they do.
> Dave


Well, "recycling" non flown homers as pumpers, is a very good idea indeed, especially for those fancy breeds having reputations of bad parenting


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

This to me is a problem.I have many pigeon friends who breed far to many ybs every year and are left with pigeons they do not want.This is bad housekeeping imo.Why breed so many.The answer is some pigeon keepers can only win by playing the numbers game.Surely its better to try and win by breeding quality and not quantity.
It sickens me because you wont want to hear this but we all know what become of these unwanted racers.
This is something ive brought up with them on many occassions but it falls on deaf ears.Its down right irresponsible and disrepectful to these birds.
Surely if they only gave so many rings per loft per year out this would see an affect on how many any one loft can breed and race.
What other measures can be taken.?


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Keep the best, sell(give) the good ones, cull(in your own definition/way) the rest. Some people breed a lot because that is one way to see how good your breeder or stock birds are statistically speaking. In statistics the more data you have the more the graph resembles a bell curve which truly shows the real graph unlike smaller data where there is a lot of standard deviation that you don't know the real graph.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

I know in my area there are some great guys/racers, that have given my friend and I several of their ybs, to help us get going, with breeders, so we can race next season...


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

Chromie said:


> I know in my area there are some great guys/racers, that have given my friend and I several of their ybs, to help us get going, with breeders, so we can race next season...


then what about next year or the next.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I think some of them will start shipping the birds to longer distances and hope the birds would not return, which is one way of culling


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Most responsible Pigeon Racers keep their birds separated by sex. They only breed what they need. They also use dummy eggs to keep their numbers down. At the end of yb season they carry over what they want for old bird season or breeding. They give away or sell what they do not have room for. The name of the game is Quality over Quantity. If for whatever reason they won't part with an excellent team.. they expand their lofts.


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

jAxTecH said:


> Most responsible Pigeon Racers keep their birds separated by sex. They only breed what they need. They also use dummy eggs to keep their numbers down. At the end of yb season they carry over what they want for old bird season or breeding. They give away or sell what they do not have room for. The name of the game is Quality over Quantity. If for whatever reason they won't part with an excellent team.. they expand their lofts.


Spot on.its all down to being a responsible owner.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

blongboy said:


> then what about next year or the next.


I don't know what they have done, or will do next year, but I am grateful for the help this year


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## sandiego (Jan 11, 2008)

for me, i will still race them if they are still in fit or in good condition. thats what they are for. and then i just limit my breeding...


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

blongboy said:


> racer fly around 30 to 100 youngbirds each year right?
> what do ya do with them after the young bird and old bird race? i wounder?
> 
> 
> i know i flyer here in my area he fly 97 ybs, he only lost 3 so far.


Key in the sport is interpreting your results. The races are over you have young birds in the loft. What do you do them? It depends on many things, do you want to improve your race results, are you happy with where you are? Some race birds just for the enjoyment of keeping pigeons and the association with other club members. I think every situation is different. For me I want to win races. 

Here was my plan before I decided to just fly others birds (this is what I did last year). I don’t fly old birds. I put a cap on the number of birds I keep after the season, 12 cocks & 12 hens. Therefore, I had 12 pairs of birds I used to breed my young bird team this year. What I need to do know is look at results. Regardless of how you did in the club and combine you had first place birds and last places birds to your loft each week. Take your race results, see what birds were first, and make a list of them. See which ones were last, were they consistently last, and were some birds consistently in the top. I would pick the best birds and try them in the breeding loft. I already have 12 cocks and 12 hens from last year, what now? 

Well look at your breeding records. List your pairs on one side and the band numbers of the babies out of those pairs on the right. Circle all the top pigeons in your loft. See which birds breed those top pigeons. I had one pair that I got two rounds from. Out of those four birds all scored at the combine level. I would keep that pair. If I had a pair that did not produce any of the top birds in the loft, I would split the pair and try them with another mate. After two years in the breeding loft with no top birds, they would be removed as a breeder in my loft. It does not make sense to keep raising babies from birds if they have never produced a good bird for you.

If you wish to improve your over all performance as a racer you would be wise to study your results, both loft, club, and combine. Another thing you can do is look and the champion bird report from the last race of the season. It lists all the birds that scored at the club or combine level in the series. I go through that report and delete all the other fanciers birds so I see just mine, this year I was left with about a dozen or so birds. The report lists them in order of total points obtained and in how many races they scored points. What I would do is go through that list and first see how many races a bird scored points. If a bird scored at the combine level three or four times or more I would say that is a good bird. I would look to keep that bird and move it to the breeding loft. Two points, might keep the bird, still pretty good but not as good. One point I don’t know that I would keep the bird. 

Based on my results in the combine I would look to replace five or six breeders this year. I would select from the young bird team, other flyers young bird team, or even purchase birds that were consistent in similar courses to mine in one-loft races. My opinion is like will breed like. There are birds out there that didn’t race well at all but can breed good pigeons. There are birds out there that race like hell but never pass it on to their offspring. What I want is a breeding loft of 24 birds that all raced well and pass it to their offspring. 

Now I have 13 or 14 young birds that made it home from the races. I also have 10 birds removed from the breeding loft. What do you do with these birds? I believe that is the question. It is asked every year, multiple times year. Someone who is not sensitive to others feelings say something stupid and the thread is shut down. This is a topic not open to discussion in the forum. 

Out of respect to all the members here, I won’t post my thoughts on the subject. I did jot down a few thoughts where I address the issue for other racers who care to see what I have to say on the subject. If you are wondering what I would do with these birds here is a link. I hope that this is not offensive to anyone about a very common issue in the sport.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jeff houghton said:


> This to me is a problem.I have many pigeon friends who breed far to many ybs every year and are left with pigeons they do not want.This is bad housekeeping imo.Why breed so many.The answer is some pigeon keepers can only win by playing the numbers game.Surely its better to try and win by breeding quality and not quantity.
> It sickens me because you wont want to hear this but we all know what become of these unwanted racers.
> This is something ive brought up with them on many occassions but it falls on deaf ears.Its down right irresponsible and disrepectful to these birds.
> Surely if they only gave so many rings per loft per year out this would see an affect on how many any one loft can breed and race.
> What other measures can be taken.?


A person needs to raise several young birds to find the best. Every young bird hatched is not a useable bird. And only say 20 to 30 out of 100 should make the race team. Just as only 20 and less make for show or useable stock birds in show breeds. Sometimes in show birds you may raise 100 birds and keep just 1 at the end of the year. Race birds sure you can fly all that doesnt ghet lost in training then the others get lost in the races that were just so so. But the beeter ones come doen to those 20 to 30 out of 100. They made the team . SO a good breed would select the birds and get rid of the rest. If it was so easy to raise say 25 birds and all was good then it would be easy to be a winner. Some people raise 300 to 500 birds a year That is alot But at years end the results are the few and the others are gone. Years ago yes some would raise just a few birds And hopefully do ok. 50 to 100 is average today to raise If flying old birds IT takes 3 years to build a decent old bird team And then the selected young bird that get added You also have to test then remove the lesser old birds. It is NOT wise to ever keep every bird as you get over crowded and have much lees quality so What is the answer And I never used dummy eggs to control breeding When i was done with a pair i broke them up. Keeping seperate area for you birds allows this. Breeding pigeons is a art if you plan to be competive As for keeping birds to watch and enjoy you can keep what you raise As they do not compete.


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## The_Dirteeone (Apr 18, 2010)

I had a greta guy give me 5 pairs of good looking homers to start me off.I dont care if they were his culls or not,it was a kind thing to do.Next year,I plan on giving some away also.If someone wants winners they dont want my birds,I dont race.But someone will appreciate some free birds to get started.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

The_Dirteeone said:


> I had a greta guy give me 5 pairs of good looking homers to start me off.I dont care if they were his culls or not,it was a kind thing to do.Next year,I plan on giving some away also.If someone wants winners they dont want my birds,I dont race.But someone will appreciate some free birds to get started.


My best breeder this year was a cull. A bird that was sent to a oneloft race the sender did not want back. I had four birds out of the cock this year, all four scored in the combine, one was a combine winner (I think still waiting on results). My best birds have been free birds. But with that bird I also took in five others to try as breeders, If I was going to breed birds again I would only keep this one, as the others were hit and miss they did not breed any birds that did well as racers.


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## Caden's Aviary (Jul 14, 2010)

RodSD said:


> In statistics the more data you have the more the graph resembles a bell curve which truly shows the real graph unlike smaller data where there is a lot of standard deviation that you don't know the real graph.


Impressive lol. I'm working on my education degree and this is the first time I've heard this outside of the classroom. Somebody went to school lol.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

LOL, I did! I didn't fully enjoy my biostatistics class though--lots of mathematical formula. As I said smaller data means lots of variances so we can't see the full picture so I am worried when I see small data and people makes conclusion about it. Unfortunately, I don't remember the minimum data to have to make a valid experiment. Also what I mentioned is rather simplistic. There are other graphs that may not resemble the bell curve. I especially like to have a graph that are skewed to the right because that means my average birds are more than average. 

What is fascinating about this topic is that it implies to discover what happened to those birds. The answer is obvious if you have breed other animals for agricultural purposes. You can not breed weaker birds, for example, so they must be gone (if you are into economic reason and wants to improve the breed).


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## Caden's Aviary (Jul 14, 2010)

Yea to my knowledge even extremely reliable data rarely works itself out into a true bell curve. That is kind of like the perfect scenario. We had a test a few weeks ago and the teacher was impressed because it actually worked out like a few A's, a few C's, and a whole lot of B's. I think she said that was like the first or second time in 15+ years.

My math sucks anyways, that is why I'm a history teacher. Not too many math problems to solve in that subject-if any.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hahaha. The teacher had a reason to celebrate because the graph is truer. I mean if there are more A's the department might accuse him/her as giving very easy test and if there are more C's or D's, then he/she will be blamed for bad teachings or the test is too difficult. They can't just win! So if your teacher got the curve right, no one can blame him/her now. He/She might be doing it correctly for the first time or the second time.

In pigeon racing if you keep on winning people gets suspicious, too. If you suck, then you might get blame for bad handling. LOL!

Can't you tell I like math and science. They seldom lie to me that is why. I like to use science in my pigeon hobby because I don't like guesswork.

The poster's question also touches upon population dynamics, population control, etc,.

American history is my most favorite history. In one of my American history classes, I got free breakfast for answering questions right. My teacher was unique. He offered free breakfast (bread and drink) for any challenge questions answered right. Hahaha. That is how I got my breakfast once a week. Now, I don't remember almost anything I've learned. But I remember the breakfast part--hot muffin with black berry and hot coffee. It was embarrassing eating it in the class while everyone was looking, but....


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Caden's Aviary said:


> Yea to my knowledge even extremely reliable data rarely works itself out into a true bell curve. That is kind of like the perfect scenario. We had a test a few weeks ago and the teacher was impressed because it actually worked out like a few A's, a few C's, and a whole lot of B's. I think she said that was like the first or second time in 15+ years.
> 
> My math sucks anyways, that is why I'm a history teacher. *Not too many math problems to solve in that subject-if any*.


And history was one of my weakest subjects 

In line to re-lee's observation about the number game in show breeds, I think its harder to "cull" in fancy show breeds because you do not have the option of sending them to longer races !!!

When I resumed my hobby I was particular about a couple of things, selection to the best quality my money can get, no cross breeding (unless it seems to have excellent chances of increasing a positive attribute) and hatch control. Every now and then I "cull" a mix of my pigeons, the good ones and the not so good ones. "Culling" for me is selling to other pigeon hobbyists, thats the only way, I do not give off pigeons for free too, honestly (noone gave me any and neither do I see such a fancier who I think is worth gifting)

The crux is that since I took care in selecting my stock and maintaing lines and breeds in the stocks, when ever I have to "cull" I only have quality birds which always have the market. Now I do not know how much the quantity factor plays in finding out the racer guys/gals fit for race, but ultimately I think its quality over quantity, no matter its racing or show profiles. If someone is serious about having a loft without much unwanted birds, breeding for quality is the only way, just MHO


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Someone might have said this already but people do fly old birds!!! I don't fly old birds so I give some good ones away and keep a few of the best ones. The rest I have a guy that like to have birds to fly around his house so he takes some of mine and breeds from them and eventually retrains then over to his loft. I get some back but he only lives about 10 miles and can get them no problems. I also use some for pumpers if I am low on those.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

sreeshs said:


> And history was one of my weakest subjects
> 
> In line to re-lee's observation about the number game in show breeds, I think its harder to "cull" in fancy show breeds because you do not have the option of sending them to longer races !!!
> 
> ...


First No one can raise all good birds. When you pair your birds You get what they raise. As to quality that is why you remove the lesser birds. The best birds will raise just a handful of good birds. Thats is why I believe in the peddlers that sale at swap meets and such They are a good place to give your unwanted birds to Then they sell them for a modest price. But if a person expects quality then they must maintain a rigid program selecting there best and useable birds And not keeping the others So I find it inpossible to not to remove birds and maintain a quality loft. While your birds may appear good They have a standard And stock birds often could not win a 1 bird show BUT raise the best show winners. And race birds often are bred NOT from the winners But the consistant birds. It is a art. But percent should be 5 percent best up to 20 percent useable for others 80 percent left for the people that enjoy pigeons but do not race show ect. compete.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

re lee said:


> First No one can raise all good birds. When you pair your birds You get what they raise. As to quality that is why you remove the lesser birds. The best birds will raise just a handful of good birds. Thats is why I believe in the peddlers that sale at swap meets and such They are a good place to give your unwanted birds to Then they sell them for a modest price. But if a person expects quality then they must maintain a rigid program selecting there best and useable birds And not keeping the others So I find it inpossible to not to remove birds and maintain a quality loft. While your birds may appear good They have a standard And stock birds often could not win a 1 bird show BUT raise the best show winners. And race birds often are bred NOT from the winners But the consistant birds. It is a art. But percent should be 5 percent best up to 20 percent useable for others 80 percent left for the people that enjoy pigeons but do not race show ect. compete.


I agree with your assessment and with most of Flapadoodles view in his off forum document. I "discovered" Pigeon Racing from buying some "unknown" pigeons at my local feed store. They had zero information on proper care of the birds and do they not even sell pigeon feed. In my research of these birds I discovered this forum among other websites. My original birds were my ambassadors for me to this sport. 

I would like to think other Pigeon Fanciers will sell what they do not want for their breeding programs at their Local Auctions or on Craigslist and even to the Feed Stores etc.. and let other people have a chance to own their very own Racing Homers. This is a twofold idea...first you will lower your feed bill and keep only your favorites. Second you will be allowing someone else the pleasure of keeping pigeons. For me..My birds are my sanctuary. 

Maybe the guy who sold his birds to the feed store just wanted the $5 they pay per bird. Either way, I have never looked back since these guys have "taken over" my passion. Moral of this argument... live and let live.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

A quick thought that is going around in my area right now:

We have had a ton of losses (close to 75%). Either the birds were ... not good at homing ... or there is somehthing terrible going on. One of the guys wass looking at what would be a normal set of culls and said "these birds made it home from every single race this season, did any of yours?" after a quick review it was discovered that of the birds that flew every race, 90% came back, but they were not in the top 10% of the finishers. All but 2 of the top 10% finishers were lost in later races. The next statement is where it gets interesting: "If any of you want to give up your slow birds that made it home every race let me know."

Sometimes fast isn't all there is to a "good bird".


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> A quick thought that is going around in my area right now:
> 
> We have had a ton of losses (close to 75%). Either the birds were ... not good at homing ... or there is somehthing terrible going on. One of the guys wass looking at what would be a normal set of culls and said "these birds made it home from every single race this season, did any of yours?" after a quick review it was discovered that of the birds that flew every race, 90% came back, but they were not in the top 10% of the finishers. All but 2 of the top 10% finishers were lost in later races. The next statement is where it gets interesting: "If any of you want to give up your slow birds that made it home every race let me know."
> 
> Sometimes fast isn't all there is to a "good bird".


No point of having a slow bird,
It is just like reinventing the wheel.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> No point of having a slow bird,
> It is just like reinventing the wheel.


What is the value of a fast bird that can't find it's way home? 

The point is that what you keep and what you cull needs to be evaluated with a larger view of "what are my birds missing". That missing thing may be as unglamorous as the actually ability to come home.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> A quick thought that is going around in my area right now:
> 
> We have had a ton of losses (close to 75%). Either the birds were ... not good at homing ... or there is somehthing terrible going on. One of the guys wass looking at what would be a normal set of culls and said "these birds made it home from every single race this season, did any of yours?" after a quick review it was discovered that of the birds that flew every race, 90% came back, but they were not in the top 10% of the finishers. All but 2 of the top 10% finishers were lost in later races. The next statement is where it gets interesting: "If any of you want to give up your slow birds that made it home every race let me know."
> 
> Sometimes fast isn't all there is to a "good bird".


Those are the two I would keep.

I have guys in my club that built a loft, then it got full and they built another one. That got full and they built another one. One guy has six lofts, another has five. To each his own...

I think the average fancier would have more success in racing if they would limit the number of birds they keep. I don’t know what the number is as everybody is different. Keep the consistent birds from the young bird team to move to old birds. Remove from the old bird team those that didn’t perform well. If you had a bird that was consistent in old birds and still around after three or four years try it as a breeder. After a bird has had, two different mates as a breeder with no consistent young birds remove it from the breeding loft. Bring in birds that did well in big one loft races to try as breeders some will work and some will not. JMO


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I wouldn't breed that many. If I did, I would be giving them away as youngsters for others to race for me. 60 is pretty much my limit on how many I want to take care of. I can't understand these people who raise 100-200+ birds a year. You don't need that many. One guy in my combine does that, and he gets nearly 100% of his back in the races. If I were him, I'd reduce the breeders since obviously they are all going to come home. I could understand a little more if he needed more birds to ensure he'll have some left over...but that isn't his case.

Any of my birds that make it through the race season, are kept for the next year. I haven't had a problem with overcrowding in either YB or OB loft yet. If that happens, then I'd give away or sell a few and keep the better ones, just like I do with breeders.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Jaysen,

Your observation is correct. Most of those 90% came back well because they go as a group. And as a group there is safety in numbers. The top 10% are few in between and they are vulnerable to BOPs and other things that might head their direction. There is less in them as a group because they are faster. Being in front of flock is also harder. Wind can slow you down. Some of those top 10% birds might go home singly. A single bird is easy target.

I rather breed those 2 birds that are top 10%. You should not expect much to have good birds if you breed from average ones. You may get some, but on "average", you will get just the same average birds that are on those 90%.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I think my statement missed the mark. Let me try again.

With our lofts averaging a 70% loss rate this year, it seems that the stock is missing the "homing" part of the "homing pigeon". While everyone one wants the 2 birds that are both fast and smart, if you have fast, why not just breed back in the smart? 

It is a question of what makes a bird "good" from a loft managers perspective. Here was a consistent winner (he won 4 out of 10 this year) who had lost all his winners in later races. Fast but not able to get home. Right now a "good bird" to him is one that has better than average homing ability that he can cross with his fast stock. 

We all do selective breeding so let me say a slightly different way: Know your lofts deficiencies and then adjust your breeding to mitigate that deficiency. Good should be defined on all points, not just one point.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jaysen said:


> I think my statement missed the mark. Let me try again.
> 
> With our lofts averaging a 70% loss rate this year, it seems that the stock is missing the "homing" part of the "homing pigeon". While everyone one wants the 2 birds that are both fast and smart, if you have fast, why not just breed back in the smart?
> 
> ...


You wqill find The so called fast birds Are they ones that are smarter The distance birds have room for mistakes and can still win But short races the birds have be fast and smart Or they lose the race. Breeding from the so so birds reduce the numbers of the good birds That why the old saying is it better to have 1 pair of good birds then 10 pair of so so birds. Chances are you raise better birds from the 1 then from the 10. But Any pair raises CULLS and culling does not mean killing Just it means not keeping for your own use any longer. And Yes many birds get lost If those birds had of been selected to make a team Then many of the lost birds would have never raced As young bird As olds still get lost But Agin that improves with time of selecting. The birds.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Jaysen said:


> I think my statement missed the mark. Let me try again.
> 
> With our lofts averaging a 70% loss rate this year, it seems that the stock is missing the "homing" part of the "homing pigeon". While everyone one wants the 2 birds that are both fast and smart, if you have fast, why not just breed back in the smart?
> 
> ...


I think you may be mistaking 'not coming home' for getting lost. There are lots of reasons one may not come home. Bird of Prey gets him, hunters shoot him, he hits a wire, he may hit a car at the release station, etc etc etc. Could be a number of reasons so the not coming home doesn't mean he gets lost, at least in my opinion.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

True. We know some are going to predation, but the club is also getting a significantly higher number of calls on found birds when compared to last years records. I found the one persons approach interesting and after thinking about it, it makes sense to me.

But then I don't have all that much experience. You guys that have been doing it for years and getting good results should be the voices of authority.


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