# Little 'coughing' sounds...



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Have a sub-adult, pin Feathers just comeing in above their non-wattles...

Sweet little Pigeon...I scooped them up the other day because they were clearly not feeling well.

Initially, they were Beak breathing...they did this for a day and a half.

I started off giving them Metronidazole, and 'Berimax' and "5-in-1' in their drinking Water.


This seemed to help...the Beak breathing lessenned, then ceased...soon was pecking and self feeding...and feeling much better.


Now, five days since getting him, as of this morning, he is making little 'coughing' sounds as he breathes...and is looking uncomfortable, looking like he is not feeling well again.

Yesterday, he looked quite good..! Looked normal as for poise and mood and eye and so on...was active, interested in things...now, withdrawn, sleepy looking, dim...

I have no prior familiarity with this scenario...so...

Any advice or insight you may have to offer me, I would apreciate it..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am not sure but sounds like whatever it is either it is recurring or they have somthing additionsl that comes to surface.
I am sure you checked for canker.
Possible he has something respiratory?
Do you have anything specific for respiratory infections that you can administer as an individual dose (not in the water)?

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi Phil,

The first thing that came to mind was a resistant case of canker. I saw this in a rescue I had one time. I'd treated him with Global's Multi-mix (similar to your 5-in-1) but he had this little cough. It turned out to be canker. He needed stronger meds and had to stay on them longer. They can have internal lesions you can't see.

Does the baby have any symptoms that would indicate a respiratory infection, such as gurgly breathing or sneezing? Goopy eyes? I assume not since you didn't mention it. 

The other thing that can cause a cough is Aspergillus, but it's less common. Always rule out the most common problems first.

-Cathy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, Cathy,


He had open-Beak breathing when I first got him...

Been treating him with Metronidazole, and, with ACV, 'Berimax' and '5-in-1' in a theraputic dosage, in his Water.

No visible signs of Canker...

Poops have been white with small amounts of brown-green, as he was not eating much, even though he was eating...

Progressed to where he looked normal, happy even, yesterday nd last night...but this morning and since, has has a sort of cough with each breath, where he opens his Beak a little, and one sees the menbrane below his beak, at his throat, expand a little as he breathes...in fact, his whole body jerks lightly with each breath. This is almost constant.

I will try looking in there again in a few moments.

I do not know what medications I should elect, either in lieu of, or in addition to, the ones he is recieving.

I do not really have any idea what is going on with him, other than that he is making these sounds and globally moveing in little sudden jerks, with each breath.

He is one of the wild/feral Birds from my out doors flock...and I saw him off to the side under my old Bread Truck, and come evening, he was on the rear bumper, where I scooped him up gently after talking with him about it.

He is a young Bird, not yet having his Wattles filled in.


Thank you!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> in fact, his whole body jerks lightly with each breath. This is almost constant.


Hi Phil, 

Are you talking about a tail bob here...when the bird breathes? Is there any clicking in it's breathing at all? This does sound like a respiratory problem however, going by your description and words.

Tetracycline or erythromycin might be something you should elect to try.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


No Tail-Bob, but his whole Body jerks slightly with each breath, so, it is one sound-jerk every few seconds...otherwise he is standing tall, not fluffed up or anything ( though it is warm here of course, ) and, the sound does not sound 'dry' but somehow moist...he opens his Beak only the tiniest bit for this, so it is not like Beak Breathing...just a little opening of it when he makes the sound...

It seems like this is an exhalation, the way his throat membrane below moves 'out' each time...

My Oxytetracycline is likely no good any more, it was an old outdated Bottle many years ago, and somehow ended up not in the 'fridge at some point.

Otherwise, I will look and see if I have any erythromicin powder...which I am pretty sure I do have, and start him on that a.s.a.p.


Thanks you!
Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

You're welcome...Hmm...sounds odd, may not be respiratory related per se, especially since there is no tail bob. Perhaps he's only got a mild respiratory infection and it hasn't really taken hold yet.

I still think it's a good idea to treat with the erythromycin (if you have it), just in case. Baytril, metro, trimethoprim, amoxicillan etc, aren't likely to work for a respiratory problem as I'm sure you already know.

Hope this helps,


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


Looks like I have one unrefridgerated packet ( for making 100 Gallons, ) of 'Aureomicin'...but not finding any Erythromicin...(I thought I had some....but not finding it anyway...)


I do have a recent rubber-top, refridgerated Bottle of Pennacillin...

I can maybe get to my good-guy Vet tomorrow sometime...

Anyway, got a good look down into his throat...and his treacheal aperature opens VERY wide for each breath...otherwise, all is pink and clear...

He is 'light', and even though he has been pecking and getting Seeds, I do not think his appetite has been very good...so, I will give him a tube feed I think, just to see to it that some decent nutrition is getting into him anyway.


Thanks Brad...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> I do have a recent rubber-top, refridgerated Bottle of Pennacillin...
> 
> 
> Anyway, got a good look down into his throat...and* his treacheal aperature opens VERY wide for each breath.*..otherwise, all is pink and clear...
> ...



Hi Phil, 

The penicillin would probably work, if you're dealing with the beginnings of a respiratory problem.

You mention about his tracheal opening, opening wide for each breath. I don't know if you're aware of not, but my Henny died recently of acute pneumonia. Her tracheal opening was very enlarged and opened wide with each breath. Otherwise, her mouth was clear and pink inside too. She had no watery discharges from her eyes or nostrils either.

It's a long story but tetracycline, erythromycin, pennicillin or one of those would have fixed her. We couldn't find out what it was in time to save her and I should have known to try the tetracycline but I didn't and it's something that I think we all have sort of lost track of using. 

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive now because of this and want to suggest these drugs when I hear about respiratory sounding problems, but I think it's better to be safe than sorry now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


Any ideas on how I should adminster the Pennacillin?


previously, if memory serve, I used it in Water for the Bird's drinking...

In theory, I could give an injection along the Keel...but I have only done this once previously...although Isuppose that would be the best method for this presently.

I will need to figure out the dosage...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

Sorry, I don't know how to give it via syringe or the dose. Someone here should though or if you do a search in pigeonlife.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Phil, the jerks when breathing sounds like something is obstructing the air passages. Pneumonia can do that if there is a consolidation in the lungs.
If you have a penicillin start him on that. I would also continue the Flagyl, just in case it is canker further down. And feeding him would be good, he needs energy to fight this.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


If for Pennacillin, how youd you adminster it?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, in addition to others comments here, just want to add that air sac mites may also present w/coughing and open mouth breathing. If you have Ivermectin
or Scatt on hand you might consider this. Also, Salmonella can also have respiratory symptoms and as you know, CNS.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

fp has a good point.

Depends what penicillin you have but some are used only injectable and for this case it would be the best route.
With an insulin needle you inject the dose a bit to the left or right of the keel bone, right into the muscle. I never had anybody even flinch when doing this. It has to be a small needle though, not bigger than an insulin needle.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, I'm not sure if you've given injections or not, but if not, this link may be of help you if unable to see your vet:

http://www.vin.com/WebLink.plx?URL=http://www.birddoctorhousecalls.com/


Scroll down and select the link to Bird Health Information (Diet, Health, Disease, Treatment, Behavior information)

On the page it takes you to, scroll down and you will see two quick time movies, one on syringe medicating, and one on giving injections. Make sure you click on the "Q" icon to get the movie, you'll just get a larger picture by clicking on the picture itself.

It will show in movie format what Reti is describing to you.

fp

I'd link you directly to the movie, but this is how these links work.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Yahhhh...makes sense to me.

This one is one BIG 'wiggle-worm' though, so, it might be tough for me to inject him by myself, but I will try a dry run or two to see...

Thank you!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh!

Hi fp, 


Thank you...I will visit the links there.


I had my Vet show me the drill on Keel injections, and I tried it there in his Office, did the deed for real...the experience remains fresh in my memory, and I feel confident I can do it nicely. But not having anyone to help hold the 'wiggle worm' is my only real concern.

I have some 1 cc Syringes and fine Needles still in wrappers...

I can try some things and see about holding him for the deed...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Oh!
> 
> Hi fp,
> 
> ...


Maybe a tube sock w/a conveniently place hole, lol. Good luck.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


I am once again confused about the distinction between a "ml" and a "cc"...


Here is the product I have in my posessoion - from 'Foys':


Pen Aqueous (Pg. 17) 
Penicillin has been used for years to fight many pigeon health problems. Especially effective against hard to treat lower respiratory problems. If birds are gasping for air, this might be the answer. 100 ml bottle will treat 20 
gallons of drinking water. Five cc’s to a gallon for 5-7 days. 

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/respiratory/index.html#Pen Aqueous


Now, in impossibly small print, on the Bottle itself, it says " Intended as injectable, dosage as...3000 Units, per Pound of Bodyweight...

I do not know what a 'Unit' is...

My Syringes are in "cc"...

Then...the label also says, 

"1 ml per 100 pounds Body weight..."

I am really hot, tired and exhaused and this stuff of "ml" NOT being a "cc" and why the heck do they DO this on these labels, is killing me...my concentration feels ruined as it is, it was 116 today and likely not much cooler in here now! Lol...

Why can't they just say, so many ccs per a patient's Kilogram weight per day, and be done with it?


Okay...this Pigeon weighs 200 grams...

I can not open google without looseing Pt, so, I close now to research what the ratio is of CC to ML and UNITS and so on...

I feel ill now...

I HATE this stuff being so screwy when it could all be SO straight and simple!


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> I am once again confused about the distinction between a "ml" and a "cc"...
> ...



Hi Phil....

With this matter, all I can offer and tell you is that 1 cc = 1 ml


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

So, 'google' articles/refences seem to show a concensus of a "mL" being the same as a "c3" or "cc"...

How nice...the tiniest Syringe I have is a couple hundred times TOO large for allowing something as absurdly minute, as the dose this Bird is gunna need.

1 Syringe full is right for about 210 Times his weight...or, 1, 1cc Syringe full, is right for 100 Lbs.

He weights 7.05 Ounces, or, 7.05 is to 16 Ounces, what he is to a Pound and my math brain is dead as a doornail right now.


So, I guess I must what, take 100 ccs or so of sterile Saline...add TO it, one cc of Pennacillin, or, take 10 ccs or so of sterile Saline...add TO it, one tenth of a cc of Pennacillin...

...and stirr till all is even, and then fill the Syringe with one/half of a cc of 'that'? and 'then', 'that' is what I would inject intoo the muscles next to, aloing side of, his Keel?

Sheeeeeeeesh!


I think I will just mix some in Water and tube it down into his Crop...!

Or, hmmmm...maybe I will do the mix and try that...

Does this sound right to you? 

Or anyone who is still up this late?

I am so wasted right now I could hardly remember my own phone number if asked to recite it...!


(PS, thanks Brad...your post came in while I was in a long drafts mode...and I did not see it..till now.) 

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

I seem to be the only one awake at this time who *might* know, and I don't even. I'm not good with math, doseages, etc. and always rely on the group for that.

Perhaps you should wait until tomorrow, once you can get to your vet for confirmation and possibly another medication such as tetracyline or erythromycin.

I don't think the pigeon is going to die overnight..Henny had pneumonia but it likely started as a respiratory problem and her death didn't come until nearly 3 months after I first observed she was sick.

I think it's best to wait for now, and consult your vet, get your hands on the best appropriate medicine for respiratory ailments and try again tomorrow....that is what I would do.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


Lol...


...sigh...

Well, he is looking better anyway...maybe the heat was making something worse for him somehow...and it is cooler now, around 99 in here instead of 108 or something.

Anyway, he is pecking and having much fewer breathing sounds or damp-coughs now.

I will see about getting him to my Vet tomorrow.


I need some sleep...! Long hot day, and too many things going on the whole day for this poor brain...


Thanks Brad...!


Till to-morrow...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, his breathing 'cough' sound and Beak opening with each breath, seem to be getting worse again over the last couple hours...so...

Okay, my decision, if my math is right, was...to mix...


4/10ths of a cc of Pennacillin, into 20 mL of Sterile Saline...stirred well, figureing this then, would be a dose of .25 of one cc of the Solution, to cikntain roughly 1/200th of a cc of the actual Pennacillin, for his weight...injected into the Muscle against his Keel.

I steralized the skin there, held him in a cloth, and gave the injection easily, even though to me, the Needle felt 'dull'...(compared to the last time I did this under the supervision of the Vet) .


I hope this helps...


Thanks all..!


Till tomorrow...


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hi Phil and others,

very busy here (just getting my day started here), so my quick two cents worth:

1) I saw my vet inject Pidgiepoo for PMV (maybe a homeopathic shot for support, not sure) into the breast muscle. In and out with the small syringe needle, just like that, in the blink of an eye, over with before you knew it. No reaction from Pidgiepoo. Assistant was behind pigeon with hands cupped around wings and body. I was surprised because in one post on pigeon.com (when I was a newcomer) I had read that injections should be subcutaneous, into the loose skin of the back of the neck. I suppose one must distinguish between subcutaneous and intramuscular depending which med is used, and for what. 

2) *Holding a pigeon still*: I had an idea of using _Saran Wrap_, or sticky plastic *cling foil or wrap* (for the internationals who aren't familiar with Saran wrap). Just for using a few minutes: humans sweat through the skin and would quickly overheat and die from hyperthermia and perhaps brain hemorrhage. I have read in an old _Scientific American_ article many years ago that dogs hunting in packs make their prey (such as rabbits) zig-zag and overheat so that the brain hemorrhages and they pass out from exhaustion. Jackrabbits have very large nasal passages and ears to dissipate heat. My point: It might be very easy to one-handedly wrap a bird (or one's self by mistake) to get a quick job done, but I wouldn't want to kill the bird by mistake. And I wouldn't wrap the bird too tightly, so that he could ventilate. My fear of using cotton socks and such is that by the time I get it onto the bird and over his wings, the elastic might be too tight. I know (from recent reading) that birds don't breath in and out like mammals, that it is a one-way air-flow, but they do need to inhale and expand and contract the air sacs. If I were to tackle the job, I would sit down, set the bird on my lap between my legs, right hand circling the neck, holding the head up, palm downwards to restrain the wings, and pop the needle in (I'm left-handed, but ambidextrous in some things: left-handers must be). 

3) I take antibiotics for respiratory problems, and I have read *DO NOT USE antibiotics past their date of expiration*. Result can be _respiratory damage_. (I think this is on the paper that comes with the antibiotic (at least here, in Germany). 

4) I include this (about *pleurisy, or inflammation of the pleura, the outer lining of the lungs*) so I don't have to re-type, from a May 19, 2006 eMail I sent to Reti concerning my sick pigeon Wieteke: 

I read yesterday (I had read this before, but had somewhat forgotten) that birds do not have diaphragms like humans, but depend upon air pressure differences for air flow into the lungs and air sacs and hollow main bones. I surmise this means that with wing flapping and tightening of the abdominal muscles the lungs and air sacs are squeezed and compressed and decompressed like someone playing a bagpipe, just as the leg muscles of a human when walking squeeze the veins and cause the different types of valves to force the blood to move in one direction and effect blood circulation, in addition to the heart and other muscles. I am guessing that with a small intestine irritated and inflamed from much coccicidiae, and possibly sore and stiff, it might be painful for a pigeon to put much energy or oomph into vocalizing. I did not hear him respond to his mate (perhaps my ear could not detect it), and he only "gurred" when my hand approached him. He growled once when I checked his vent. I have had *pleurisy* before during several bouts of pnuemonia (last time in 1982), and would experience a sharp stabbing in the lungs. I didn't want to inhale deeply if I could help it; just wanted to rest and stay calm. The pain was sharp upon inhaling. It was not that bad, but definitely unpleasant. Not the pain of a hypodermic syringe, or a razor or knife cut on the finger, but the sensation of being poked in the side with a sharp object or knife which does not penetrate: it gets your attention. Since it is recurrent with each deep breath, it can be exhausting after a whiile, like someone shaking you awake every time you start to nod off into a dream sleep. Maybe Wieteke experienced something like that. 

5) *Weights and measures*. 
I will try to attach a very good .pdf I came across. It is an exercise for medical personnel. 

What I think would be useful on this site as a sticky is a fully-worked out list of specific medicines with their specific doses in ready-to-use units, since this is a recurring theme on this site. A few weeks ago I had a very sick bird, was waking way too early and my nerves were frazzled. I calculated and recaluclated doses, then a half-day later panicked because I thought I had mis-calculated (I hadn't) and was poisoning Wieteke (maybe I was, but he survived). I think he may now have air-sac mites or something, and need to work further on that, since he makes groaning sounds as he breathes after exertion.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Hi Phil,*

Some time ago (12/30/05) this site was posted. Listed Diseases: symptoms and treatments...may be helpful?? Hope so!!

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

HEALING THOUGHTS AND HUGS FOR YOUR PIJIE!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think my tendency would be to just go ahead and use it orally (since it's intended to be used both ways) rather than diluting it with water and injecting it. Do you not have a stethoscope to listen for problems like this, though?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...


Thanks so much for your inputs...!


No Stethoscope, but I shall consider to get one sometime soon.


I did give him the injection late last night, and I am glad I did...he seemed to be headed downhill, and fast...

Looks quite a bit better this morning and day, and I mixed a batch of Pennacillin/Water, but he has not drank anything yet.

I was SO tired and heat-exhausted last night, I am glad I was able to muddle through!

If he does not drink soon, I will tube feed him and use the Penn-Water to mix a light nutritous meal for him.

Anyway, the exhagerated sounds and jerking I was seeing yesterday and last night, are very much reduced, to be fairly subtle now, and we shall see from here...



I think he is exhausted from this...I do not think he has slept hardly at all for a couple days now...

He is standing, preening off and on, and overall looking much better now...

Does anyone see any reason not to use the Penn-Water for making a thin 'soup' for him?

I do not think he is eating hardly enough, even though I did see him pecking earlier a little bit...and, I do need to get the Penn-Water in him, somehow, if he is not drinking on his own...


Oh, Pidgey, by "use it orally", do you mean 'in' his drinking Water? Or for me to give it into his throat or into his Crop in some more concentrated form?

The site selling it said "5 cc to a Gallon", so I mixed up 1.25 cc to one Quart of Water, instead...so as not to make an overlarge batch which would get wasted.

The Pennacillin is recent, ( a year ago roughly) and has been continuously refeidgerated...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Phil,

I see no reason the you could not incorporate the penicillin into a "soupy" meal for this bird.

Usually it is preferable, especially with birds that are quite ill, when dosing orally to either mix up a suspension with the antibiotic you are using and a simple syrup, sugar & water mixture. This way you can be much more precise in the actually dose the bird is receiving, where when you mix it in the drinking water it can be a hit & proposition. The way I do it is first measure out the drug dose I want, usually somewhere between 10 to 30 mg and then I fill a 1 cc dosing syringe with water 1/4 full and first use this to start to get the drug into solution. I then fill the syringe 1/2 full with syrup and add this to the first, so I end up with about 3/4 of a CC in a 1 CC dosing syringe, and stir it around for a minute and it is ready to give.

My only other thought is that I am glad to here the bird is improving on the penicillin, but penicillin is not usually the drug of choice for respiratory infections (I know that's all you had right now), if that's what this is, Baytril, Doxycycline or Keflex may be better choices if possible, perhaps others may have an opinion on this.

Hope he feels much better soon.

Ron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ron, 


Thank you...

Usually, the convelesent Pigeons I have, in Spring, or Fall, will drink most of one small 'Custard dish' of Water, each, per-day...all of one in the warmer halfs of those Seasons, and in Summer, all of or more than one full one each per-day. I just measured one of these custrad Cups-dishes, and it holds 180 mL...

So, say, a 300 Gram Pigeon, 'here' will drink one of these a-day during much of late Spring and Early Autum, and more than one-a-day during Summer.

I bear this in mind when mixing water-meds, as their dosages usually are calculated for more moist or cooler climes where a goven Bird would likely drink rather less.

I myself likely drank a Gallon of Water today, and still feel thirsty, and I weight about 145 lbs.

This Pigeon, does not appear to have drank even a Teaspoon's worth since provideing him with the Penn-water this morning.

I had a lot of outside things to do to day, and some appointments, so I wanted to give him all the chance possible to drink, yet he has not...so, it shall be the 'tube' then.

Otherwise, he is preening as I write, and definitely looking better than he was last night.


Thing is, with this Pennacillin, the dose from the Bottle is so minute, for his weight, that it seemed vexsome to me compared to most other Meds' use.

Usually, the meds-in-Water is easiest for me to do, and less stressful for them. Some pills or tablets or fractions there-of, of course, are readily put into their throat for them to swallow, and this is fine...

Oye, qyarter-till-nine already! Eeeeesh, the day has flown by...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I meant to put it in water and give it to him the hard way. For myself, I don't tolerate the birds to not drink medicated water, I just keep it separate and give them all they need whether they like it or not. It's just too easy to do. If it's a medication that I know they'll drink and they're of a condition to drink normally (not so sick that they just stop) then I'll let them self-medicate that way but in order to get a specific dose in, I usually do take the option away by gavaging them.

I found a stethoscope for Alice on eBay for a grand total of $7.25 which included the device ($1.75) and the shipping/handling ($5.50) and that was the "Buy it Now" option. They shipped that puppy so doggone fast it made my head swim. It was a student model (kind of a violet color) but it's quite serviceable--she could listen to Bubbles just fine (I wanted to know if there were any funny sounds like wheezing, crackles & pops or rattles). While Bubbles' lungs did sound clear (compared to her other birds), she did find that his heart rate was faster than the other birds, though.

Anyhow, that stethoscope was a deal similar to this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-NURSE...001562999QQcategoryZ11824QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...

We gunna go see the Vet later today...


Overall, the Beak breathing is down to the barest hint ot Beak movement, and her Body does not show any jerkyness as she breathes...

She was not eating enough, I I started Tube feeds, and she is definitely stonger now, and also is not so much a TOTAL WIGGLE WORM as she was, and she seems to understand the being constrained for tube-feed time is not so bad afterall...so I am very grateful for that..!

Been giving the Pennacillin inbetween Meals via the 'tube'...I mixed six days worth in with some strerile Water, to the tune of 6 Teaspoons worth of solution all tolled, in a tiny graduated Beaker so I can see the marks easily when draying into the feeding tube, so each day, she get's one Teaspoon via the 'tube' and this is her day's worth of Pennacillin.

Anyway, she looks much much better, and I think the extra food is helping also...

Thanks all...!


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm glad she's doing better Phil, and that tube feeding is helping her regain strength. Let us know what the doctor says.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wonderful, sounds like she is improving.
Let us know what the vet finds.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, all...


Thank you...

Good-Guy-Vet thought this may be a Trichomona problem in the lungs...

There are no visible lesions in her throat, and the coloring in her mouth and throat all seem normal.

I was about out of Batril, so he gave me some more, and suggest I use it to ward off secondary infections...

So, the regimen is...Metronidazole...and Berimax Water...Batril ( or Cipro actually in this instance, ) and me tube-feeding couple two or three times-a-day...as she is not eating on her own...


She is a little better yet, to-day...so...keep your fingers crossed...!


Damn...seems like this year I am seeing more odd Trichomona presentations than ever...that, or seeing stubborn strains which are different than the old one had been.

I am thinking to start treating the entire flock...treat them for a week, maybe every other week or something.

I scrub out and change out their fresh Water several times-a-day, even with it's risks, it is about the only water around here for them, or, otherwise, about all they have would be far worse a potential vector, so...better they drink 'here' from the large trays that get scrubbed and refreshed a few times-a-day, than from some nasty small puddle somewhere.


"Jill", who survived some kind of really tough Canker, has been such a totally charming and sweet Bird since, who walks up to her cage Door to visit and socialize, is very friendly and calm...she still has not gained much weight and is STILL regaining her abilities to peck Seeds well...

Yesterday I saw her peck a kernal of Corn and I was so pround of her! She had some neurological involvement it seemed, many days of co-ordination problems and fits...all gone now, of course, but she still is light and frail...

I am thinking to start tube feeding her again, in addition to her usual 1/3 full Crop from her own pecking just to get that added nutrition into her so maybe she can come up a couple notches more.

One could not hope for a kinder, sweeter more lovely and calm, gentle Pigeon than she is...no timidity, easy confidence and grace...but I do not want her to free roam in here till she gets some more weight on her.


Maybe I should worm her...???

I do not think I have, and that might just be worth doing, too...

She is strong enough now I think...where previously she was too delicate for me to wish to try it...

This makes me think I should also worm no-name sub-adult with the possible Canker/Trichomonal infection in the Lungs...but I would like to see them appear stonger first, of course, so that's the irony sometimes I guess...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the update, Phil
I am glad you have an idea now what might be wrong, hope he starts recovering now.
I think too, you should wait a bit with the deworming. 

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the update, sounds like your feedings have very much helped this one. I frequently read that canker is more of a juvenile/young bird illness, but most of the rescues that I take in have to be treated for canker and they mostly (at least 3/4's) are adults. There are so many strains, it would seem that without keeping a log on par w/the kind that Maggie keeps, and testing for the specific strain, that it would be difficult to keep track of this kind of information. That's a lot of work when your a 'one man band', and work for a living at the same time. Along with the organ involvement, I have specifically read that there can be airsacculitis/pneumonis presentations. It may well be a good idea to flock medicate, especially this time of year. 

The wormer is a bit of a catch 22, in that if they do have worms, and dependant on what species, you may not want to give an opportunity to progress in the cycle and migrate into other areas such as the liver. Your choice may depend on the type of wormer you have on hand, whether you've 'floated' for the worms, and how the bird is faring. Perhaps if choosing to wait to gather strength, you might choose an herbal remedy to help keep numbers in check and follow up later w/an appropriate wormer for what you find in the feces.

Anyway, sounds like your supportive care is truly making a difference and bringing this bird back to good health.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad to hear the bird is progressing. 

I also think it is a good idea to treat the ferals since you pretty much have the control of where they drink.

I'm glad Jill is doing so well, quite a milestone for her picking up the kernel of corn.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, I'm really glad to hear Jill is doing better. Also, glad to hear this other little guy's breathing is better. Hearing rales in a bird has always scared the crackers out of me.


fp - you mentioned my log and yes, it has helped us a lot with treating birds but to the best of my knowledge we have never seen (well, course it's not visible ) canker any place other than the throat. Now, that's not to say canker has not been present in other areas. It could have but the "shotgun" approach we use on birds that appear ill may have stopped it in other areas.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Maggie,

I was just referring to the difficulties of knowing which strain we are treating 
for out of the many different strains of canker without keeping a meticulous log, tracking the strains after identifying them and perhaps noting some difference-or not-in how the disease presents or progresses from a specific strain. Of course, the 'shotgun' approach within reason is frequently what occurs in the case of a sick feral and the common issues are treated for.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Maggie,
> 
> I was just referring to the difficulties of knowing which strain we are treating
> for out of the many different strains of canker without keeping a meticulous log, tracking the strains after identifying them and perhaps noting some difference-or not-in how the disease presents or progresses from a specific strain. Of course, the 'shotgun' approach within reason is frequently what occurs in the case of a sick feral and the common issues are treated for.
> ...


How do you differentiate the strains?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> How do you differentiate the strains?


Didn't fp post information about various canker strains in your previous canker thread, Pidgey...

http://www.albertaclassic.net-tricho...richomonas.php

I remembered that article and had saved it in my favorites...

Could answer your question???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, it doesn't.

But, I guess, I could reframe the point in a different way and make it clearer.



feralpigeon said:


> There are so many strains, it would seem that without keeping a log on par w/the kind that Maggie keeps, *and testing for the specific strain,* that it would be difficult to keep track of this kind of information.


Nowhere in the reference that you cited, mr squeaks, does it give us a method to clinically identify any given strain. They all look the same microscopically and only lab equipment that could do a DNA analysis for the purpose of speciation could differentiate them.

So, we're basically left to dumb luck. 

There are two big factors here: 1) The actual strain(s) of T. gallinae that you're dealing with; and 2) The relative immune strength and knowledge of a given bird. If a bird's immune system is relatively immunonaive, then a less virulent strain can still kill the bird. If the bird has a more developed and educated immune system due to previous exposure to a milder strain, then it stands a good chance of surviving even a highly virulent strain.

The ultimate point of the cited study that was done basically according to scientific methods (if not to the level of DNA analysis for speciation) was that it's ultimately better to let our birds have some exposure to the milder strains of trichomonas than to be always trying to eradicate it. Said eradication is apparently rarely complete, leaving the more virulent strains intact and/or it does effect eradication in the birds of the milder strains that they need to give them natural immunity to the more virulent strains 

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oye...


Thanks so much everyone...!


Breathing-Bird seemed to be getting much worse overnight, and this morning, but now is on some upswing again...

I realized also, yesterday evening, she was not passing the food from her Crop in a timely way, and the morning's Meal was still 'there'...so, I gave her the tube-fed Meds, and then gave her a little dab of ACV, and this morning there are about ten or twelve dark green with white blob-poops, all small, but at least it suggests that 'some' previously stalled food is passing...her Crop however is still not empty from yesterday morning's last feed...so...

Oh, golly, lots going on with this one...

I will just keep her hydrated, and give some more ACV-Berimax-Water via the 'tube' and see how we do...

Crop is not inflated or distended, but neither it is passing the food very well...so I will guess that there are problems further 'down' which are slowing or impededing things...

My little Air conditioner developed a squealing Bearing last night, so I shut it off and need to pull it out of it's 8 foot high window mount and see what I can do on it, darned thing weighs more than I do, and climbing a ladder to get it onto my shoulder to get it down is a pain in the pahhh-tutti...Lol. I might pull it out and just toss it, run off with most of the rent money, and buy a nice, smaller, side draft Swamp Cooler and install it there instead...

I hate trying to sleep when it is 100 degrees in here at 2 a.m., or even 99 degrees for that matter...ugh...and the Birds would appreciate it being a little cooler too I am sure. I do not mind the warm days, and I am sure they do not either, but it is nice to be able to sleep, too, instead of laying there like-a-Starfish and sweltering...

I think I will reinstate the "5-in-1" meds along with her 'Cipro'...along with her Metronidazole. I stopped them a few days ago, and I am not that happy with how she is doing since...

This is really dragging on with this one and I feel really bad about it...I have not felt at all sure on what TO do for her, and I know this is exhausting for her to be sick like this, so, for lots of reasons, I really would like to hit on the right deal and see her get better. This protracted illness has got to be wearing her out.


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Sorry to hear she is not doing any better.
I don't know what to tell you, but since she is not improving I would consider switching the Cipro to something else, maybe a tetracycline.
For her poor digestion try some probiotics and continue the vinegar and hydration.
Hate those tough undiagnosed cases. 

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Darn, Phil, sure hate to hear she's not progressing as you would have hoped!

Sending WARM HEALING THOUGHTS that she will improve! AND that you will get "cooler" air for sleeping!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> How do you differentiate the strains?


Pidgey,

I think my post was easy enough to understand, whether Phil did all or part of the work was not the point, just to track the strains as they became ID'ed would be a monumental task. Really, Pidgey...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Oye...
> 
> 
> Thanks so much everyone...!
> ...



Phil, 

Sorry to hear the bird is having ups and downs like this, and that you have to deal w/the unbearable heat and a failed A/C unit on top of it all. Perhaps using a different Canker med if you have on hand may be something to consider. Sure hope the crop starts clearing out, and you start seeing some consistant results from your efforts. 

Sending you cooling energy, lol.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Pidgey,
> 
> I think my post was easy enough to understand, whether Phil did all or part of the work was not the point, just to track the strains* as they became ID'ed *would be a monumental task. Really, Pidgey...


I just can't figure out how to ID them in the first place, never mind tracking them. 

Most of the time, I think I'm doing pretty good just to say "it's canker." If you've figured out a way to ID them, then you're doing better than me.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I just can't figure out how to ID them in the first place, never mind tracking them.
> 
> Most of the time, I think I'm doing pretty good just to say "it's canker." If you've figured out a way to ID them, then you're doing better than me.
> 
> Pidgey


I suggest you read the first post again and the subsequent ones.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> I suggest you read the first post again and the subsequent ones.
> 
> fp


Okay. Yep. Did that. And read through the entire article referencing Dr. Chalmers.

Now, if we hold to the explanation that I'm just dogmatically locking onto the terminology of "identifying the strain" as meaning just that at face value and that isn't what's really being said... well, I can accept that. 

If what's really being implied is something more along the line of a "there's a high probability/possibility that the bird may be suffering from a strain of trichomonad that tends to affect other organs and does not present visible oral lesions so let's just go ahead and take a leap of faith (or desperation) and treat the living crap out of it by a heavier than standard dose of the most likely anti-protozoals in our arsenal and let's keep it up for quite awhile longer than normal"... well, that's okay by me. I don't mind guessing and _sometimes it's necessary because it's the only chance we've got._

Let's face the facts about me--I try real hard to go by the book, including the spelling and grammar. I've been accused of being condescending and nasty but I think it's just my tendency to attempt to rigidly adhere to correctness for correctness' sake. I think the reason that I try to do that so much is because I'm _horribly_ afraid that if I don't, somebody, someday, somewhere will misinterpret something I've stated and hurt some bird and I don't want that, you see. I _am_ going to make mistakes. Plenty. So I _am trying_ in the best way that I know how to minimize the damage.

When I read a post that I can't figure out what's being said, I may ask for some clarification. Sometimes, it might come off sounding bad and for that I apologize. By the same token, if I get a reply that (to me) reads flippant or cross, I might very well end up getting combative, but still without going so far as to result in name-calling or outright insults because the preservation of the forum's congeniality is first and foremost.

But it works both ways--if I say anything that anyone wants any further clarification on or to call me on, I'll try my best to answer their concern or question.

Pidgey


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Some people seem to have trouble with the forum's format and reading posts.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hello everyone, 


I am sorry, she did not make it...

Today was medium panting all day, not fast, but somewhat open Beak-kind...a dozen or so more small poops with White Urates and decent enough green-brown middles...so, the digestive system was looking up...Crop was nearly emptied and I was figuring to do a light tube-feed soon.

I checked on her often, and at one point, not sure now, but around 7:30 or 8:00 O'clock this evening, when I looked in on her, she had died.

Laying peacefully enough I suppose, on her side when I came in to check...did not seem to have thrashed or had any spells.

There was a opaque-grey-clear fluid, a kind of 'pearly' opaque, draining from her Beak, and I think this may have been fluid from her Lungs, since she was laying with her head lower than her body. ( Otherwise, she was a standing Bird or would lay down normally with poise at times, then walk around or get a drink or something...)

I did not think of this earlier, but maybe I should have held her up-side-down to drain off this fluid, but I was not thinking of fluid previously...it did not occur to me at all to wonder abou tit in this sense...

So...anyway, a sad tale then, I did not have the right regimen and it was all ups and downs and trying to get a feel for what to do.

I do not feel that I learned anything with this situation, or ever had a good feel for what to do on this one. If anything, I kinda think the 5-in-1, Berimax, Metronidazole, Batril...was when things seemed to be going best...but I was worried also that this might be TOO many meds ( even though the Berimax is no strain on them and helps greatly against lots of things, and is especially good for stubborn or any Trich...so...)

The ACV seemed to help, for sure, and her Crop and digestive system were comeing around again...but there were too many variables at play...for me to have much feel for the rest of it.

Maybe I could refridgerate or freeze her, and, Monday, see if my Vet can do a Necrospy...

At least that way, maybe, if I ever see this kind of thing again, I could at least say what some of the identifiable situation was, which this one had, what Trichomona or other infections, IF any were still 'there', or what ever else as maybe he could find to tell me about.

Thanks for all your help everyone...

Tough Season this time...I guess every Summer is really...


...sigh...


As a note for future times - if one has reason to suspect fluid in their Lungs, does it make sense to consider to hold them in some way as to allow it to drain out?

I think this may have been what got her, that somehow it had built up or shifted to where she drowned, in effect...but this is just a conjecture, since I have no way of knowing...



Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, Phil, I am so sorry. Just recently went through this heartache with Sweetie. You always wonder if you did something differently it might have helped. Don't forget that sometimes there are viral diseases they might suffer from and there is really nothing you can do about it.

To answer you question about holding the bird upseide down when you suspect fluid in the lungs, it wont help if the fluid build up is in the alveoli, the smallest unit of the lungs. That happens in pneumonia and other ailments. What might help is a nebulizer.

I've seen many birds excrete fluids from their mouth while or after dying. In your case it might have come from the crop.
A necropsy could be helpful for helping other birds in the same or similar situations.

Again I am very sorry.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Oh, darn, Phil, I am sooo sorry!  

I,too, agree that a necropsy would be helpful. At least, hopefully, you would have some idea of what was going on.

Please let us know! A WARM HEALING HUG to you!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oh Phil, I'm really sorry to hear about your pijie. H/she did have the finest supportive care that's to be had, whatever issues were going on, most likely 
multiple ones, h/she was in the right spot to get help. Sometimes there is just too much working against them to turn the tide in time for them to stabilize.
If your 'good guy' vet was willing to do a necropsy, it would at the least, help you to understand the full extent of this one's battle and help in the future with others. Again, I'm very sorry to hear the news.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is one of those times that I can say "sometimes rehabbing sucks". We all try so hard to save them but sometimes it is impossible. There are too many diseases that we can't readily identify and, sometimes, even a vet doesn't know. This little bird could have died from anything. Phil, you tried and that is all any bird could ask for.

To feralpigeon and Pidgey - I'll start this by saying that I am sick as a dog and if I felt better would probably keep my mouth shut. But, as two of my most favorite members I'd like to ask both of you to knock it off. The forum is not a place to see which member is the smartest. Both of you and other members like Terry, Phil, Jazaroo, Nooti, Reti, Cynthia, Fred, etc. are so knowledgeable and have helped so many members cope with extremely bad situations. I admire all of you (and envy) your intellect. I work within certain boundaries and am fearful of venturing into the unknown. Although I feel I can contribute to the forum, I know I can't like the two of you can. If you go back to the early years in the forum most of the responses are similar to what I might post but the two of you can take it a step or so further and the forum has desperately needed that. So, I hope I don't make both of you mad at me but that is a risk I'm willing to take because I like both of you very much.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Phil, I'm so very sorry your bird didn't make it. As always, thank you so much for doing all you could. 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 


Thanks so much...


You know, over time, there are various approximate syndromes, where ( rightly or wrongly, ) I feel that I have a decent sense of what-to-do.

Usually, these go well and progress positively and the Bird recovers and in time is released back to their former feral occupations.

Sometimes of course, I am confronting syndromes where I am inadequate to bring about a recovery even by accident or in spite of my treatments.

The 'Beak Breathers' I have tended to see, have been those in the terminal throes of easily seen Canker in their Throats, and down from there, who can not eat, and in whom even the slenderest feeding-tube is very difficult to get through their Throats and into their Crop.

These Birds, sometimes, if they are still alive a few hours after my getting them, do respond well to my attempts to save them, and may take a long time to become robust again, but in time, may appear to recover fully. But these of course are so far gone when I get them, that I am very glad to succeed when I can, even if they do seem a mite frail for months afterward. Oddly, these seem to be the sweetest and gentlest Birds, from then on.

This summer, here, so far, I am seeing Canker which when it is visible, is different from any I had seen previously.

It used to be, routinely even, I would 'see' pale 'Yellow', "small curd cottage cheese-like" forms in their Throats, sometimes one little cube of such on each Tonsil side ( if they have Tonsils, that is!)...

Now, I am seeing something at times which looks like melted 'cheddar cheese', form fitted in the back and sides of their Throats.

Pidgey continues to encourge me to learn to use my Microscope, and I appreciate that and aspire to do so...but things are so cluttered here still, from all the inturruptions from issues relating to this Building and it's previously bad leaking roof, there were so many occasions of flooding from the inside from water pouring in when it rained, causing me to just grab all kind of things to get them off the floor and onto something where water was not pouring in on them, that a great deal is disorganized, and all horizontal surfaces in here are heavily cluttered and stacked with impromptus past, of gathered things, slowly getting boxed and put into storage.

I have re-engineered about 140 feet by 32 feet wide, of the roof area so far, and have about 25 feet by 32 feet left to go, and then we shall have the whole of it sprayed with Urathane Polymer coating which will be the actual Roof surface getting applied over all my new Joists and OSB ( flake board) Sheathing.

I have had to be doing this in my more or less spare time, and it has been pretty large project all tolled. Then I got caught doing it with no permit, and this being a Commercial Building and all, there was some protracted delays while I had to make engineering drawings and find a kindly consulting Structural Engineer to bless them, to then get a licensed contractor to walk the permits through so I could finish the darned thing. The Old Roof engineering was as a 'flat' roof, and of course, over 50 odd years, it settled to be low and would gather water and leak. previous owners would not spend a dime on repairs, and would raise my rent some more if they thought I was fixing anything. 

Now, it has a small Pitch ( 1/3 inch per foot) so Water will drain off nicely.

Anyway, what it means, is that there is only so much of me to spread out thin on these various occupations and involvements, as well as needing to make some dough to pay bills and so on, and overall, I have managed pretty well, it taking longer maybe on some things for want of time to get them done with alacrity.

Every day, the hours fly by, and what gets 'done' gets done.

Once the roof is all finished, and I have hauled most of the contents of this building off to storage, I can then enjoy the possibilities of really getting everything tidied up and mopped and repainted and re-sheetrocked and so on, have clear Tables and Benches and open areas, and get things organized again, and have some place to set up and use my Microscope..!

This will not let me tell one strain of Trichomona from another, but it will be useful and will lead where-ever it goes.

But anyway, impirically, it seems that either different strains make for differing appearances or symptoms, or, the same strains may learn or elect to manifest differently...and or to indulge interests in infesting some areas of the Bird's system, while neglecting other previously typically elected areas.

I have found eight deceased Pigeons in my out door parking lot compound so far this Summer, where, previous years, I doubt if that ever exceeded four such ones...so...something is afoot now which is different than years passed.

Too, the deceased Pigeons I have found were not usually thin and emaciated ( three were, five were heavy and robust) , and none had yellow urate matter clogging their Vent Feathers, which here, is typical of a Canker or Trichomoniasis Pigeon to have...so, it would not seem to be a Trichomoniasis matter for those...nor have I any idea what they died of. But not Avacide so far as I can tell, anyway...

Maybe, they drank from Car's anti-freeze spill-overs...

Anyway...

Rambly...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, I just don't see how you're able to take care of the pigeons like you do with all this going on in your life not even counting the heat! Does this mean you'll be able to remain there and continue to care for the pijjies?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, I just don't see how you're able to take care of the pigeons like you do with all this going on in your life not even counting the heat! *Does this mean you'll be able to remain there and continue to care for the pijjies?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I sure hope so! At least I think I should hope so???
> 
> ...


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Phil,

I am so sorry to hear this little guy didn't pull through, despite your very best efforts. I know from personal experience, as others here do as well, the feeling, no matter how we try and tell ourselves different, of some how failing the bird we lost.

You said you did not learn anything from all this, my hope is perhaps we all can. I have been thinking and about this bird and perhaps a possibly for what took place was this bird had bacterial atypical pneumonia. The reason I bring this up is my thinking is that when it comes to involvement of the respiratory tract, we should first be thinking more in terms of bacterial involvement than other organisms that while they can cause respiratory infection, may be more rare in doing so.

Bacterial atypical pneumonia is most commonly caused by Mycoplasma Pneumoniae, Chlamydia Mycoplasma or sometimes Coxiella Burnetti and the drug of choice, at least in humans is a macrolide, such as Azithromycin or Erythromycin followed by a tetracycline such as Doxycycline (from my reading Doxycycline or Minocycline are much more effective in treatment than just plain tetracycline). Also from my reading, I believe Mycoplasma can mimic a virus in many ways and could affect many other organs, could this be a reason you where seeing difficulty in this bird clearing his crop?

I am still in my early learning curve so I am trying to learn something from this loss of this bird. So my questions would be how common would trichinosis of the lung be in pigeons? Could a bird have this without some presentation in the mouth or throat? What tests are there, besides a necropsy, to determine its presence? Also, many times Mycoplasma infections are secondary infections, so even if canker was seen in the throat it would not necessarily rule out an respiratory bacterial atypical pneumonia. 

My next question is, when we get into congestion or even open mouth beak breathing, should we be treating ASAP taking a shotgun approach with more than one broad spectrum antibiotic? The problem, as I see it with in sick ferals, is that by the time we sometimes get them they are usually in poor condition and we don't know how long they have been afflicted with what’s making them sick and many times we have to get the drug choice correct, right at the commencement of treatment, to hope to save them.

I did find a paper confirming that tetracyclines, such as Doxycycline may be given in combination with a Floroquinalone, such as Cipro (Baytril) or a macrolide, such as Azithromycin.

http://www.immed.org/reports/treatment_considerations/ChlamydialTreat-01.3.8.htm

Since these antibiotics can be used in combination I see no reason that a anthelmintic, such as metronidazole, can not be used at the same time as well, to take can of any trichinosis.

I know everyday we all do the best we can with what we know, trying to increase that knowledge where we can, to give the little ones we try and help the best chance at pulling through.

Thoughts anyone?

Ron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Phil, I'm so sorry to hear you lost the little one despite your best efforts.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, I just don't see how you're able to take care of the pigeons like you do with all this going on in your life not even counting the heat! Does this mean you'll be able to remain there and continue to care for the pijjies?



Hi Maggie, 


Some of what makes it nice for the Birds, is that I am here a great deal...

My workshop used to be my principle livlihood's occupation, but as the building continued to deteriorate, I elected to resume my Carpentry Work, so long as I had gigs close by...

The new owners of this property like me, and have asked me to stay, as well as having hired me to do or manage the rehabbing and upgrades to this property ( of six buildings all tolled, mine being on effect, the largest of them, but with two smaller ones contiguous to mine sharing the same roof, ) and so I will stay some while yet.

They are curious I would find Pigeons and other Birds to be of interest, or that I would involve myself in their rescue, care and convelesence, and have given their blessing for me to keep on as I always have with it, with their explicit approval and admiration in fact, so that is nice, of course...!

But at some point, as they acquire new and expensive Tennants for the other spaces, once all is improved here, i think I will have to cease feeding the feral flock which I have fed every day for 20 years, in order not to embarass the people who will be comeing here to visit the Businesses and other Tennants to be...

And, at some point, soon in fact, my space will have to be emptied, and rehabbed also, and this will make for a problem as far as my Bird Work is concerned, since I will have no ready place to do it, unless I find some easy rent somewhere near, which is not likely! -everything around here now is expensive and under great scruitiny and or as well, under the management of grim humorless and uptight investors/management companys, landlords who would not find me amuseing or interesting or put up with me at all...

Old run-down buildings/properties downtown here which used to be 'worth' a few hundred thousand, are now several million...so the heat is on in lots of ways.


I have 2,000 sq.ft, plus a lot of outside room, and by all present values of how things have gone here, they could be renting 'my' space as IS, for three thousand or four thousand dollars a month...let alone if it were upgraded and rehabbed and made nice and so on...so...

Of course I would never pay that, nor could I..!

So it is very gracious of them to wish me to remain, and for them to offer for me to remain at some 20 year old rent rate as well, especiall as I have the largest space here...but there will be this period soon, where this space will need to be empty for some months, while I relocate somewhere to abide the rehabbing, code upgrade, and general re-do phases and process, and or participate in it also in my capacities.

The space I have in mind, to relocate to, which I can have use of for free, is only about 400 sq ft....which would make it pretty tight for Birds and me and so on, but I may try that and see.

Of course, we will be having all sorts of inspectors milling and snooping, and I do not want any impetuous meddleings from them or other travails with them regarding my having however many convelesent, ill, injured, baby or other Pigeons indoors and so on, being as these inspectors tend to want to find fault or basis for complaint...so...it will be a little dicey...

It is way dicey already! - and has been for a long time now anyway, in that regard...

So, if need be, I may need to find good homes for some few non-releaseables, and maybe, some good homes for a few who are probable candidates for release, but who need more time yet.

And I may just have to force myself to give the Bird Work a rest for a few months or longer...but I hardly think I could really do so, since if I see some wandering Squab in the street, or air-sac ruptured or other quill-Baby on a sidewalk, or Car wacked or grounded adult, I of course will bring them home, and do for them what I can, and of course also, it all starts over again to become business as usual...!

Lol...


Oh golly...

...sigh...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

All those upgrades don't sound good for the pigies. Bit I know you will not leave a sick or injured on the street. Hope you can figure out something without getting in trouble.
Thank you for all you do for our pigeons and I hope all the new changes will be in your favor.

Reti


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Nasal Mites*

HI PHIL, Sorry to hear that the little guy pass.I did some reserch and came up with NASAL MITES.I know that its to late for this little one but I feel it may be of use in future. Do not confuse air sac mites with nasal mites .Nasal mites attack the sinus of the bird,while air sac mites attack the air sac's.These mites do not respond to antibotic treatment.Ivermectin(ivomec or eqvalan) is the treatment for these mites.There 4 of these mites in the family of LAELAPTIDE mites and 1 in the family of EREYNETIDE mites. GEORGE


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re nasal mites*

George, 

Can you provide links or more info on *nasal mites*?

I am curious as to why *Wieteke* goes *"hehh"* (sounds like the hehh a human adult male would make) with every inhalation when he exerts himself. 

I researched air sac/airsac mites and didn't come up with a satisfactory conclusion. 

I thought he might have strained vocal cords from aggressive solo feeding of two chicks the past couple of weeks.

Also at one point in his sickness several week ago he discovered the heating pad I had set on high (don't know wattage, old pad, gift from friend) after spending several days under halogen desk lamp, and for a couple of hours he spread himself as flat as he could against the pad to absorb maximum heat, breathed VERY RAPIDLY, seemed to go into a trance (but stood up and complained when I prodded or provoked him to see if he were still conscious and responsive) and did OPEN BEAK breathing. I made several videos with an Mac iSight camera (but extremely large uncompressed 1-megabyte per minute file). This occurred on May 21st, when he was treated for and recovering from coccidiosis. We knew he was sick on May 10th, treated with antibiotics cipro and cotrim 5 days, May 19th got a diagnosis of coccidiosis (in addition to whatever else was going on). He started to show recovery and weight gain and voice recovery, but signs of lack of coordination in flying, and one week later on May 25th we knew he definitely showed signs of PMV when he slept (standing) with the top of his head touching the ground, for that one night only. Flying difficulties such as corkscrewing into ground conntinued for another week or so (have to check pages of handwritten notes). 

Only remaining symptom that bothers me is the "hehh."

Mouth looks great. Don't detect abnormal wheezing (if I know what normal is, that is).

I've been through the _*Chevita *_website flowchart of symptoms/diseases/treatments probabyl several hundred times the past year until I've memorized and then scrambled most of it. Researched so many websites and links that I don't know where to re-access something to re-freshen my memory. Forgotten more than I ever knew.

Thanks, Larry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Larry_Cologne said:


> George,
> 
> Can you provide links or more info on *nasal mites*?
> 
> ...


LARRY, I got my information from three pigeon books.
COUGHS &COLDS: CROAKS&CANKER by F.D.W. Harper,B.V.S , M.R.C.V.S (page 22-23)
PIGEON HEALTH and DISEASE by David C Tudor B.S.,V.M.D (page207-209) cheak chart on 208
THE PIGEON by W.M.Levi (page439 paragraph 855A)
 Been trying to get some good web sites having some differculty.But here is one digital.library.okstate.edu/oas/oas_htm_files/v63/p107_108nf.html I am still trying to get others. I feel this nasal mite thing is some thing that needs to be looked into.While these mites can kill squarbs. The good thing is that these blood sucking mites can be killed withIVERMECTIN(IVOMEC,EQVALAN) GEORGE


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

george simon said:


> HI PHIL, Sorry to hear that the little guy pass.I did some reserch and came up with NASAL MITES.I know that its to late for this little one but I feel it may be of use in future. Do not confuse air sac mites with nasal mites .Nasal mites attack the sinus of the bird,while air sac mites attack the air sac's.These mites do not respond to antibotic treatment.Ivermectin(ivomec or eqvalan) is the treatment for these mites.There 4 of these mites in the family of LAELAPTIDE mites and 1 in the family of EREYNETIDE mites. GEORGE



Hi George, 


This is a very good mention here...

In fact, some of me wanted TO reach for the Bottle of 'Ivormectin-plus' and I paused literally with my hand reaching for it, and thought "Ohhhhh...this Bird is pretty frail...should I? " and I decided not to, thinking the Ivormectin itself might e too much of a strain...

But I will keep it in mind, and also, if you or anyone else may know - just how much, or what sort of strain on them would it be?


Too, it was just so darned hot here and I was just not feeling anywhere near my best...it was hard to think at all...


Thanks!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ron, 


Thank you for your mentions here...

Please excuse me for letting some days go by, but I have been so harried I could not find the presence of mind to reply till now.




jazaroo said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I am so sorry to hear this little guy didn't pull through, despite your very best efforts. I know from personal experience, as others here do as well, the feeling, no matter how we try and tell ourselves different, of some how failing the bird we lost.



Ohhhh, sometimes my efforts are not very good.

I am so sorry that this is so sometimes.

Slmetimes I do not know what to do, and I feel sorry I am in over my head with some of these...


My intuitions are often pretty decent, (of course, sometimes not-so-decent too, ) but I did not follow them very well. I wanted to grab the Tetracycline, Metronidazole and Ivormectin, ( then decided on the "4-in-1" which I DID 'feel' good about, ) and talked myself out of the Ivormectin oweing to how the Bird was frail ( but the "4-in-1" does contain a medicine to act against endoparasites of various kinds, so) ...and then I found I did not have any more viable Tetracycline, used Pennacillin instead, then the Vet said I should go with Cipro...

So I did have '4-in-1'...and my initial regimin was that, was the "4-in-1", the Metronidazole and Berimax-Acv-water, and in retrospect, I think that was working pretty decently, then I got myself messed up by thinking too much, with too little real knowledge TO 'think' with...and I was sick with being so constantly hot and being bothered by other obliges of this Roof Project, the Monsoons due any time soon now, and...

...sigh...



> You said you did not learn anything from all this, my hope is perhaps we all can.



That was not a sensible thing for me to say, I was weary from the Summer heat, and feeling mind-mushy...




> I have been thinking and about this bird and perhaps a possibly for what took place was this bird had bacterial atypical pneumonia.



Seems plausale to me...

Or, I supposed something along that line, but also, there were signs of some serious Canker and or other Trichomoniasis, and visible Canker in her Throat...her Throat wqas quite locked with it further down I think...her digestive system seemed compromised, suspicion finally of Candida starting to e welling up to add it's charms...and I suspected Worms or other endoparasites of some kind also...

Too much harried...I should have got a fecal analysis done, but too, for a while there, thought she was eating allright, then realized she was only pecking with no eating going on...so then I had to feed very slightly as I was worried about the tube going through some weak or thin esophagal area, and, as there was nothing getting through and no poops to get analysed, and I over-fed by accident, and then realized her Crop was not emptying in a timely way, and so...after a little while, I got that on the mend...and her poops were happenning in a small way showing no yellow anymore...

I did not have my thoughts and presence of mind organized well enough...




> The reason I bring this up is my thinking is that when it comes to involvement of the respiratory tract, we should first be thinking more in terms of bacterial involvement than other organisms that while they can cause respiratory infection, may be more rare in doing so.



Makes sense to me...

I was thinking, could be an aspiration pneumonia ( how or why, I donot know!) , could be a Trichomoniasis effect leading to some secondary Bacterial pneumonia, maye havfinf eaten into her Trachia even fromn it's outside, then having got 'in' from there maybe...could be Mites of some kind, could be some fluid from her Canker Throat somehow had got into her Trachia and down from there...eeeeeeeeeeesh...I was worried on all this, especially when tube feeding her...if the Canker had eaten into her trachia, then it would be only too easy for the little tube to slide in there...so each time I had it where I thought it should be nicely 'in' her mid Crop, I started out very slow to see if she had any reaction...and I suppose, any reaction would have signalled a tragedy, since there would have been nothing I could do to get formula 'out' of her lungs, if her esophagus and trachia were perforated to where the tube oculd slide in the wrong one from farther down, even though I was not IN her trachia to begin with...


I will say, it seems to me, that the old "4-in-1" seemed to have been helping more than the Cipro did...or than the Pennacillin did...



> Bacterial atypical pneumonia is most commonly caused by Mycoplasma Pneumoniae, Chlamydia Mycoplasma or sometimes Coxiella Burnetti and the drug of choice, at least in humans is a macrolide, such as Azithromycin or Erythromycin followed by a tetracycline such as Doxycycline (from my reading Doxycycline or Minocycline are much more effective in treatment than just plain tetracycline). Also from my reading, I believe Mycoplasma can mimic a virus in many ways and could affect many other organs, could this be a reason you where seeing difficulty in this bird clearing his crop?



Good mentions...

I have seen Canker where I also felt there were other sites not visible, and where the Bird has troubles with their digestive system, and troubles with food getting through...so, I more or less supposed that some Trichonomiasis infestation was making problems further 'down'...and or even as I was getting "that" ammended, there may have been prolems of heavy scarring or infection which was effecting the tone or elasticity of various areas in her digestive system...

Finally, when her Crop was not emptying at all, I elected to begin the ACV-Water and encouraged her to drink often, and this helped matters, so that made me suppose some Candida or other Yeast was opportuning...and her Crop did clear quite soon, in a day or day and a half anyway...and it seemd the Canker/Trich was definitely on the run...on the mend.

So, golly...what sense to try and make of it...?





> I am still in my early learning curve so I am trying to learn something from this loss of this bird. So my questions would be how common would trichinosis of the lung be in pigeons?



I would think, around here anyway, that it would be quite rare...

I have seen many Canker or other appearently Trichomoniasis presentations, and none which I had reason to suppose were infesting their Lungs.


Of course, late, end-stage Canker can occasion Beak Breathing, delerium, and other unhappy dramas...but this was different in various ways, and it DID get better initially...then she got worse...but the getting worse I am sure was not from the Trich or Canker issues, which had been appearently diminishing nicely...urates were "White" again...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

> Could a bird have this without some presentation in the mouth or throat? What tests are there, besides a necropsy, to determine its presence?



I would imagine, in theory, a Bird could have Trichomoniasis of the interior of the Lungs, withour per-se showing clinical signs in their Throat...but this is just my conjecture. I imagine the little Trichomonads can elect new experimental colonization sites or other impetuousities, just to try something out for their own edifications or amusements or curiousity...so, nothing would surprise me on that score...

Tests-wise, one may swab the Crop, swab the Thoat, do a fecal analysis...and other than that, a Necropsy, would seem to me to be about it as far as options...

If one had a fine enough Boroscope or Endoscope, I suppose one could try and get a peek into their Lungs, but of course they would be oliged to choke or gag somewhat while one did so, even with a dialating trachia...so...eeeeeeeeesh...




> Also, many times Mycoplasma infections are secondary infections, so even if canker was seen in the throat it would not necessarily rule out an respiratory bacterial atypical pneumonia.



Makes sense to me...yes...




> My next question is, when we get into congestion or even open mouth beak breathing, should we be treating ASAP taking a shotgun approach with more than one broad spectrum antibiotic? The problem, as I see it with in sick ferals, is that by the time we sometimes get them they are usually in poor condition and we don't know how long they have been afflicted with what’s making them sick and many times we have to get the drug choice correct, right at the commencement of treatment, to hope to save them.



Yes...

It would take of course much much more cumulative and informed impirical experience than I have, and, or, some ready and able Labratory work, to try and establish both the possible pathogens/agents which are making the mischief, as well as to decide in some manner, their priority and aetiological stages...as well as to decide whatever else may be germain...

Lets say with no more recourse than I had, if I had it to do over, I would have...

Started a regimen of "4-in-1" and Metronidazole ( 1/4 tablet per day) ...with ACV-Water being the carrier for the "4-in-1" also...Actually, made Water which contained for it's volume, the desired proportions of the "4-in-1", the "ACV" and "Berimax"...


And...see how that did...

But I may be naive or confused here, ( or, I of course am naive and often confused, ) so...





> I did find a paper confirming that tetracyclines, such as Doxycycline may be given in combination with a Floroquinalone, such as Cipro (Baytril) or a macrolide, such as Azithromycin.


Good to know...

I worry of course about counter-indications unknown to me, when medicating...I worry aout all kinds of things...




> http://www.immed.org/reports/treatment_considerations/ChlamydialTreat-01.3.8.htm
> 
> Since these antibiotics can be used in combination I see no reason that a anthelmintic, such as metronidazole, can not be used at the same time as well, to take can of any trichinosis.



I do not know that Metronidazole is an anti-helminthic...but I do understand it to be an anti-protozoon, or anti-trichomonal chemical/drug...as well as an all round enteric immunological stimulator...

Helminths are Tape Worms I think, and or their kin...

I do not know what effect Metronidazole would have on Trematodes variously, for that matter, allthough that is not something we are likely to encounter often for it to be an issue...



> I know everyday we all do the best we can with what we know, trying to increase that knowledge where we can, to give the little ones we try and help the best chance at pulling through.



Yes...

I am so glad I can muddle well enough somehow for the ones who do benifit and recover...even if they benifit and recover in spite of what I impose on them in meaning well...and sometimes it is hard to know how much of which, is which...

I am so sorry when I flub things because I can not, or did not, or do not, pull together whatever somehow was needed to effect the recovery...whether by guess or by golly or by imagining I have some Science somewhere to fit into it.

Time, experience, wishing to learn from experience, and finding it hard to know just what the testimony of that experience IS sometimes...trying to pay attention...gathering tid bits, hints, extrapolations, interpretations, seeking some kind of impirical sense, or letting such accrue...

"What am I seeing here?"

"What sense can I make of this?"

"What can I do?"





> Thoughts anyone?
> 
> Ron



Thanks Ron...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Phil,
Juat you lost your baby, So sorry. Sure is difficult, isn't it. But, if anyone will successfully pull a baby through the tough times, it's you, due to all of your dedication, hard work and love. Phil, for every loss, you have so many successes.
Daryl


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the lengthy and well thought out reply. It was very helpful to me, and I am sure it will be to others who read it.

My thoughts on this bird, from where you first mentioned that it began to show improvement then started to worsen, was that the antibiotic, the penicillin, had some effect on perhaps the weaker bacteria of the strain that was affecting this bird, but was not able to fully deal with the infection as it took a stronger hold. I remember a few years ago myself being treated for a respiratory tract infection with Amoxicillan, and the course was very similar, started to get better, then the improvement stopped and I actually became sicker and had to be put on Cipro (750 mg BID- upper end of dose range) to clear it. Maybe not exactly analogous, but perhaps similar enough to draw some anecdotal conclusions.

I guess what I am trying to do is get clear in my mind if I were to get a bird in a similar state what course of action I would take ahead of time. 

Phil, I think we all muddle through to the best of our abilities, sometimes never really being sure if what we are doing is correct, but I will say whenever someone is asking for help and I realize they are in the Las Vegas area, I always feel a sense of relief knowing that if the bird makes it to you, it could not be in better hands.

All the best,

Ron

PS: Anthelmintic drugs are used to kill parasites, including roundworms, whipworms, hookworms, pinworms, trichinella (trichinosis), and other less common organisms. Phil, I had not heard the term before until I saw it as a category in this Avian drug link:

http://zcog.org/zcog frames/Avian Drugs/Avian Drugs.htm


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

In the book "THE FLYING VET's,PIGEON HEALTH MANAGENTMENT" by DR. Colin Walker.On page 18 he talks of sour crop. Here is what he wrote "In pigeons with sour crop,at least 90% have an internal canker nodule located at the base of the crop or within the glandular stomach(proventriculus). As the nodule increases in size it squashes the windpipe,making breathing difficult and blocking the crop outlet.This interferes with crop empting leading to bacterial infection of the crop and secondary starvation and dehydration due to the crop contents not being able to pass into the birds system.Usually by the time the bird is noticed to be unwell,the condition has passed the point where it will respond to treatment.Deaths often occur due to the nodule growing through the stomach wall, leading to stomach contents leaking into the chest.Alternatively the nodule can damage the heart or large blood vessels within the chest,causing sudden and severe bleeding. Such birds are often found dead on the floor with blood coming from the mouth.It is always worth attempting to treat valuable birds and I suggest:
manually empty the crop
give electrolytes in water
treat bird with 3 drops of Baytril twice daily
treat bird with 1 tablet of Spartrix or a1/4 Flagyl tablet or 0.5 Flagyl syrup once daily
separate unwell bird from loft mates
SO THAT IS WHAT THE GOOD DOCTOR WROTE.
 GEORGE


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, then, it should be possible to detect some such canker nodules in the lower crop by palpating that area thoroughly as long as the crop has been emptied first by one means or another. If the nodule is in the esophageal section between the lower crop and the proventriculus, then you're only going to find it with endoscopy down the throat. I did that once and, I have to say, it's just an awful lot of fun navigating down there with a rigid endoscope with a 30 degree view.

For those of us who own and operate microscopes, it's disgustingly simple to swab the throat with a regular Q-Tip, wet-mount and examine at fairly low power (100x) for trichomonads. That's about the easiest test of them all. If the bird actually has trichomoniasis anywhere in the body, the little buggers will likely be found in the esophagus.

Anyhow, it may be just a lot simpler to employ a crop slowdown/stasis protocol of always treating for trichomoniasis along with any other suspected causes (candidiasis). 

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George,


Wow...

Good reminder of how the Trichomonas can locate in unexpected places, and make for symptoms not usually associated with Canker per-se...

I have seen 'lumps' from abcesses which had 'eaten' portionss of the Crop or Esophagus, and there is little one can do unless there is enough remaining for the parts to be somehow resected.

And yes, in this line of thinking, one may effect a cessation to the Trichomona advance, only to be left with un-assayable damage there is no way to know of but by inference...

That or bad scarring also, which can effect the elasticity of portions of their digestive system, and or constrict the practical diameters of already narrow parts or passages, to pass food well...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

George, I have that same book but don't remember reading that part. It sounds like what happened to a foster baby we lost last year. 

I'd been fostering for a breeder of short-faced pigeons. This little Vienna short-faced tumbler and her nest-mate both had trich when they were about 2 weeks old. She also had a nasty respiratory infection. I treated them both with metronidazole and Baytril. They both recovered (or seemed to) but the little one was behind in her development and didn't wean on time. The parents refused to feed her anymore, so I started tubing her and after about 10 days she finally figured out how to eat on her own. She was doing fine, or seemed to be, then she suddenly went downhill. I put her back on Baytril but didn't, as I recall, give her anything else for canker. She died as you described in your post, with blood in her mouth. Now I wonder if it was canker all along and the original treatment didn't get it. It can be so insidious. It was sad going through all that with her only to lose her anyway. By that time I was pretty attached.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> ...If the bird actually has trichomoniasis anywhere in the body, the little buggers will likely be found in the esophagus.
> Pidgey


Thanks for that information - I was just getting ready to ask about that! Seems like a good motivation to track down a used microscope. Sometimes I'll have a hunch that one of the birds is a bit off and it would be a lot better/faster/cheaper to be able to verify if that is a factor.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

TerriB said:


> Thanks for that information - I was just getting ready to ask about that! Seems like a good motivation to track down a used microscope. Sometimes I'll have a hunch that one of the birds is a bit off and it would be a lot better/faster/cheaper to be able to verify if that is a factor.


I wish I'd seen this one earlier, Terri, but I need to say that in the case of microscopically identifying Trichomonads, you would probably need a pretty good scope. I'm not sure if a kid's scope could do that. I actually have tested a couple of them (kid's scopes) in looking for Coccidial oocysts and worm eggs but I've never tried one of them for Trichomonads. 

Incidentally, such a scope can be occasionally gotten on eBay. There is some risk so one needs to pick and choose carefully on what you bid on. It's always better to get a look through a scope to see if there is an accumulation of dust or other lens/prism/mirror deterioration. The scope that Phil has is actually a straight-through from the eyepiece to the objective lenses. That's almost the safest thing to have but it's always monocular. The binocular models always have to split the image and that's got some stuff in there that can degrade over time in bad environments. Some of it can be cleaned and some of it can't but that's tedious work that you have to be real careful with and if it's required, you usually need to employ a professional for $$$.

When it comes to looking for Trichomonads, it's best to keep the droplet from the swab very small so that when you put the coverslip on the slide, it makes a very thin layer between the two pieces of glass. If it's too thick, it bleeds out to the edges for one thing and the miserable buggers can also swim up and down with respect to the objective lens and, therefore, go in and out of focus continually.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


So far as Coccidiosis, what impirical signs might be kept in mind for those who may lack either the recourse of a Microscope, and the practice to use it, and or who have no ready means for obtaining a fecal analysis by others?

Too, if it is decided that a Bird is infected to where the presence of the Coccidae is threatening to them, would you kindly review the regimen ?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the difficulty in definitively diagnosing diseases without diagnostic equipment (that's a mouthful, eh?) is what ultimately led to the 4-in-1, 5-in-1,... 10-in-1 medicinal package deals. The disease state of Coccidiosis is, more than anything else, a form of enteritis and so one of the symptoms, while not diagnostic, is an awful lot of a catarrhal (semi-snotty) diarrhea bordering on being just plain water. And it has a distinctive odor (it stinks but not in a sour way). Occasionally, you'll see one with that symptom that doesn't have a Coccidiosis but more often than not, they do. 

They will usually be reluctant to fly but not so much that they won't try to get away from you. The true disease state of Coccidiosis usually starts a fairly accelerated slide towards emaciation. One glance and you can tell the bird is feeling pretty miserable. The "lobster tail" look demonstrates the abdominal pain (bad bellyache) that they're usually feeling.

As to regimens, you're relegated to a few different possibilities there. The most commonly used one in the poultry industry is a Sulfa drug which can easily be gotten by most folks at a feed store in the product called "Sulmet". The primary ingredient is Sulfamethazine Sodium, 12.5%. The dose rate for that is... kinda' hazy, because the bottle doesn't provide instructions for pigeons. However, it says a rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon of drinking water for two days and then cut it in half for four more days. In the big new formulary it shows that dosage rate (1 actual gram of the pure medicine per liter of drinking water) as the manufacturer's recommendation but also shows a lot of that as doubled for pigeons (2 actual grams of the pure medicine per liter of drinking water).

So, if I were going to use that stuff on a bird with real Coccidiosis (I usually use Corid which is Amprolium mostly because I've GOT it), I'd go for 1 full tablespoon per quart of drinking water. Since a pigeon that's got it is usually REALLY going through the water (actually, it's the other way around), there's more of a possibility that the bird will overdose than underdose (although so much will actually go straight through the intestines rather than to be absorbed and filtered out in the kidneys that it's hard to say how much stays in the bird vs. how much gets dumped out). Given all that, it's a tough call. Since I haven't personally used that one to solve that problem, if anyone else goes that route, now's the time to step up and detail your regimen. In the absence of someone's empirical experience, though, and in a last ditch effort to save a bird, I'd do the 1 tbsp/qt drinking water for two days and cut it in half for the next four.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I personally use Corid (Amprolium) for one week in their drinking water at the rate of 0.625 milliliters (cc's) per 8 ounce cup of water. I've done that one an awful lot of times and many of the birds were feral and promptly released (unless they needed to build back up from emaciation). Some, I've kept (Vanilla) to this day (it's been a few years for Vanilla) and they're still just fine with never-a-relapse.

Appertex is Clazuril and is, I think, a single-dose pill. I've never seen that one in action so can't say. I don't know how it would be in a severe emaciation case--somebody else is going to have to relay advice there.

Another common drug sometimes used for this purpose is Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Bactrim). That stuff comes in a few different formulations (usually it's a changing Sulfa component) and the dosage rates in the formulary are... interesting. They mostly seem to be centered around 60 milligrams/kilogram once to twice a day. I'm not sure that most people can get their hands on that stuff in a recognizable form so easily so if it's accessible, it's usually best to follow the instructions on the packet. If you're trying to adapt a human medication... well... you probably better have some decent lab equipment.

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> ...in the case of microscopically identifying Trichomonads, you would probably need a pretty good scope. I'm not sure if a kid's scope could do that....
> Pidgey


Thanks for the information. Seems like an appropriate 'scope would cost more than it's worth for my six pet birds. I've found a good vet who is willing to work with me, so I think I'll let him handle that aspect. I appreciate the information you listed regarding Coccidiosis. Since we have so much we weather, that's something I especially watch out for.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


With a little patience, one may find very, VERY nice 'serious' Microscopes on the e-bay for less than a Hundred Dollars, sometimes much less indeed.

Semi-modern ones from the '50s, and '60s and '70s especially go begging because they look 'homely' compared to the Classic Black Japan and Brightwork styles of earlier decades,and look obsolete compared to the up-to-date ones, while of course, function and utility wise, any decent one from the last hundred years or so will be just fine and then some...

So, just study up a little more on them, their kinds, types, features, details...and you will be sure to find what you need for a bargain.


Phil
Las Vegas
who is embarassed he has not yet done a darned thing with his luscious, cool, majorly gorgeous, old, pre-war, in a carry case, Microscope...

...sigh...


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

pdpbison said:


> Phil
> Las Vegas
> who is embarassed he has not yet done a darned thing with his luscious, cool, majorly gorgeous, old, pre-war, in a carry case, Microscope...
> 
> ...sigh...


Consider it vintage, retro,or best yet, *CLASSIC*...YEAH Phil, I like that word the best!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> ...With a little patience, one may find very, VERY nice 'serious' Microscopes on the e-bay for less than a Hundred Dollars, sometimes much less indeed....Phil
> Las Vegas
> who is embarassed he has not yet done a darned thing with his luscious, cool, majorly gorgeous, old, pre-war, in a carry case, Microscope...
> 
> ...sigh...


A little patience...hmmm, not my strong suit.  Thanks for the suggestion!


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