# Pope's Dove Release Goes Horribly Wrong



## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

You might be aware of the recent release of two dove by 2 children along with the pope Francis.

It went terribly wrong and the 2 doves were attacked by two individual birds , one being a crow and the other a seagul .

what are your thoughts on the matter ?

Personally I was surprised that they were using white doves ...I am well aware of what faces doves after they are released . I hate thinking about it and apparently there are a lot of other people that were outraged by the images of the doves being attacked .

I don't see why they can't use white pigeons to be released instead .... I knew the vatican was a bit backward on their standings on other things , but this one needs to change on future releases and hopefully it will.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Gambling with innocent animal lives to make a symbolic gesture is obscene, it is effectively no better than a pagan sacrifice.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Same thing happens here. They release a bird in name of giving him freedom to get their wish fulfilled in return but that bird rather become a bait for predators or die of starvation.
Gotta love those amazing rituals,,,Geez!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

whytwings said:


> You might be aware of the recent release of two dove by 2 children along with the pope Francis.
> 
> It went terribly wrong and the 2 doves were attacked by two individual birds , one being a crow and the other a seagul .
> 
> ...


why don't you write a letter to pope Francis. state the facts about white doves vs whiter homers, Im sure he is clueless and would like to know. esp if you are not emotional and matter of fact. Doing that would be better than just being upset and doing nothing.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

White pigeons get attacked and lost too, I get many injured, sick and starving "wedding" release pigeons every year, they are Always infested with lice and worms 
If they are banded and they rarely are, I will contact the owner and they never want the birds back, can't be bothered to drive even 20 minutes to pick them up, even after I have taken measures to save the birds life with proper medical care and nutritional support 
I don't like it


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

That's cynical.
But some people say its their way of selecting the best. Those who don't make it back home are not worth keeping


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

A picture of the crow with a dove from the release


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

altgirl35 said:


> White pigeons get attacked and lost too, I get many injured, sick and starving "wedding" release pigeons every year, they are Always infested with lice and worms
> If they are banded and they rarely are, I will contact the owner and they never want the birds back, can't be bothered to drive even 20 minutes to pick them up, even after I have taken measures to save the birds life with proper medical care and nutritional support
> I don't like it


I understand that pigeons get lost and attacked too , but pigeons are a lot more robust than doves .


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

OMG 
Oh....

This is sad,real sad.

Pope must watch it...


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

It's not cynical, it's the truth, and I find it cruel
I have 30 birds to care for because the owners don't care about them, only what they can do for the owner and if they are not "good enough" they are worthless and disposable 
Those are pigeons that were released


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

It's pigeons I get mostly, domestic ring neck doves do not survive long in the wild
I have had a few come in


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## derekio (Jan 20, 2012)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...5bdcb6-8774-11e3-916e-e01534b1e132_story.html


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Let us not judge without knowing all the facts. What happened after their release is absolutely horrible, but how is that different from any of us that free fly our birds, or release them to train/race. We all lose birds to hawks and other predators, except that this was caught in photos. 

For all we know, these could have been birds from the Vatican's own loft, or one close by, with the expectation that the birds would normally fly back to their home loft. 

I don't have any way of knowing, but neither do any of you. Why judge so harshly? It was horrible, but I'm sure the Pope didn't release them with this in mind.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Oh soRRy altgirl35,
You took the word the other way around.
Its cynical of those people who treat their birds like this. IME sometimes, the birds I thought to be not that good,turned out to be one of the bests with proper training. Some take their ybirds out for like 15kms in their first toss and some yb get lost but people don't realise that with proper training those birds would have become good homers.

But one difference between homers and doves is that pigeons are capable of finding themselves a home sooner or later or can live in the wild if some predator don't catch them but domestic doves are not so lucky. Pigeons can get along with other flocks of homing pigeons and can locate other lofts if they cannot find their own loft but doves can't do that. So doves are at most risk.

Wow! 30 pigeon rescues. Keep up the good work! Hope someone come up for adoptions.
Good luck with your work


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## Fay S (Jan 21, 2014)

*Fay S*

I too watched the white birds being released. I don't care whether they be doves or pigeons I am absolutely sickened by everyone that does this at weddings. If they want a 'good' or 'lucky' ritual what is wrong with helium filled white balloons that burst when they get too high.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. I think releasing doves can mean giving freedom to something that used to be free and saving it from someone's table. Some people still consume doves and pigeons so this ritual may still be alive in meaning. I too have been frustrated in the past about meat breed pigeons or small doves being released at ceremonies. That is how i started to get back into keeping pigeons years ago by finding them all homes. I would volunteerd the rescues for the same type of use because they learned to home or were trained to fly from a portable loft. The only good i see about releasing the small doves is that by some chance, someone may find it alive and keep it as a pet just like we do with other birds that we find in the street. I too once liberated my two found doves in the hills hoping that they would survive better than in the city. I did not know then. But I have seen those same types of doves surviving better in the city where people feed them. They have some homing instinct and fly pretty fast. I was amazed. Pigeons always amaze me because they are all around us. 
*To* Fay S: helium balloons may sound good today but tomorrow those may get replaced with aluminum balloons that do not pop and may cause fires and are like trash when they land.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh for Pete's sake! homing pigeons were bred and built to fly and home back to their loft/cave just like their wild bretheren ,but perhaps even more robust. the point is releasing ring neck doves is losing them , because they gets lost and attacked more readily than bigger more robust birds ,RN doves have nothing on the flying skills of pigeons and RN's are not real smart and very domestic.Them and homing pigeons really they are like apple and organges. pigeons are survivors. I free fly my white homers and have not lost one in a few years so put a sock in it! That is my opinion just as others had theirs. The End.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> oh for Pete's sake! homing pigeons were bred and built to fly and home back to their loft/cave just like their wild bretheren ,but perhaps even more robust. the point is releasing ring neck doves is losing them , because they gets lost and attacked more readily than bigger more robust birds ,RN doves have nothing on the flying skills of pigeons and RN's are not real smart and very domestic.Them and homing pigeons really they are like apple and organges. pigeons are survivors. I free fly my white homers and have not lost one in a few years so put a sock in it! That is my opinion just as others had theirs. The End.


You have the right to express your opinion, but not to be abusive while doing it. You do not have the right to tell anyone to *put a sock in it*.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I just did. and it was not directed to anyone it's an opinion.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

You *WILL* watch how you express your opinion to others. You can do so without using offensive wording. There is no reason to be so mean spirited. Enough said!!!!!!


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I'm glad you haven't lost any and I hope they are banded so when they do get lost, injured or sick you will go pick them up and reimburse financially the wildlife rehabiltator or animal shelter that has used what little funds they need to care for your birds
If you do you are a rare one indeed 
Take a look on pet finder at all the loft birds that have been taken in by shelters 
I know rehabbers from all over the world and we all take on the burdens of lost unwanted birds


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, that does not look like any crow I am familiar with. But I don't know what it is. The only attacks on pigeon by crows that I am familiar with. Are attacks against pigeons unable to fly. That picture is mighty interesting.

Secondly. Every time someone allows a pigeon or dove to fly free. It is subject to attack by any number of predators, or to injury from wires, hunters, kids with pellet guns, etc.

What is supposed to be done with homing pigeons? No free flying? No racing?

What is to be done with Tipplers, high flyers, Swifts, etc? No free flying? No nothing but being in a cage?

Precautions should be taken, for sure. But to not let birds "fly" is abnormal. It is nature that predators go after prey.

We should be more upset with humans going after prey, than animal predators going after prey. They are just following their nature. But humans doing their thing against defenseless animals is a totally different ballgame.

I am sorry for the loss of any life. Human or animal. But it happens. Every day. Every minute. Every second.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

One thing I would like to mention along these lines. I know several people that do "white dove releases" for weddings and funerals. Prices range from $120 to 320 per release. Depending on the number of birds released.

What saddens me, is that many of the white dove releasers really don't care much if the white pigeon comes home or not. It the birds do. Great. If they don't, then the owner just sold a pigeon or three, for $50 each. 

Sadly, that more than justifies the loss to many of them. Some don't even train their birds, or just train them a couple of times, out to five miles or so.

I have a loft full of white homers. If I ever decide to do white dove releases, you can bet your bibby that my birds will have adequate trianing prior. But no matter how much training, birds can be attacked by predators. And they can be attacked during training. I know it and the birds know it. Fact of life #23.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Is this story true? If so, it seems it worked out okay.

"The release of a white dove is a traditional symbol of peace and tranquility. Like the olive branch, and more recently the peace symbol, the white dove is recognized worldwide as an icon of hope, love and friendship. That is, until it almost gets eaten by a seagull.

On the final Sunday of January, 2,000 young people from Rome marched to the Vatican for the annual Caravan of Peace. These youngsters, members of Youth Catholic Action, went to hear the Pope speak and watch him release two white doves following the Angelus prayer.

(MORE: Gorgeous Georg: Pope’s Private Secretary Becomes Vanity Fair Cover Boy)

Accompanied by two children, Pope Benedict XVI stood before the crowds and released the first dove into St. Peter’s Square. Slightly disoriented, the bird eventually succeeded in flying up to a ledge above the Pontiff’s window.

The second bird was not so lucky. Soon after it had landed on a ledge below the window, it was attacked by a seagull who happened to be taking an afternoon flight through the famous plaza. Fortunately the dove, maybe owing to some sort of divine intervention, was able to fight off the much larger seagull and fly away.

Perhaps it could be time for the Vatican to reconsider the release of these birds given last year’s incident, when both doves turned and flew straight back in through the window. “They want to stay in the Pope’s home,” Pope Benedict said at the time, according to the Daily Mail."


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Well said, FEEFO. My thought exactly. Pagan and egotistical and unnecessary and cruel. The released pigeons at the Vatican just flew up and most likely DIED on a rooftop closeby.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

That's kind of funny that last year the two doves flew back into the Vatican window and this year they are horribly attacked by a crow and a seagull. Doesn't sound much like the annual Release Of The Doves For Peace is boding well peace-wise. An OMEN???? Maybe out newspapers about so much war and violence with no end in sight may have something there? Welcome to: The Twilight Zone........


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

almondman said:


> Let us not judge without knowing all the facts. What happened after their release is absolutely horrible, but how is that different from any of us that free fly our birds, or release them to train/race. We all lose birds to hawks and other predators, except that this was caught in photos.
> 
> For all we know, these could have been birds from the Vatican's own loft, or one close by, with the expectation that the birds would normally fly back to their home loft.
> 
> I don't have any way of knowing, but neither do any of you. Why judge so harshly? It was horrible, but I'm sure the Pope didn't release them with this in mind.


Initially when I started this thread ....I was led to believe that they were actual doves that were being used , being the vatican I understand that with traditions there can be a reluctance to change and that was the point I was trying to make about the pope using *doves* when infact white pigeons would adequately do the job without adding more lost and lonely doves on the streets .

I believe that to do the right job you need the right tools , although doves are a symbol of peace , after they are released for most of them life must be a miserable existance , yet if white pigeons were used they would return home to their loft and caring owners .( hopefully )

....from some of the responses , it would appear that the conclusion is that they may well have been pigeons that were used . If they were pigeons , perhaps they were just poorly trained and inappropriate for the job.

.... I have nothing against people who free fly ....It is how I operate my own loft .... my birds love to fly and I would never deny them the freedom they so much enjoy ...accidents happen from time to time ... I understand and accept this and I also wouldn't like to be judged for doing this.


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## renabailey (Dec 31, 2013)

*Crows*

I HAVE HAD CROWS PROTECT MY BIRDS MANY TIMES FROM HAWKS AND iVE NEVER SEEN A SEAGULL ATTACK A PIGEON!


renabailey said:


> I forgot how high shipping is, Ill sell him for $50,00 plus ship I probably have box. Beginner we negotiate better price.


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## renabailey (Dec 31, 2013)

*HEY I RELEASE MY BIRDS AT MY FRIEND FUNERALS. my BIREDS ARE PEDIGREE WHITE DELBAR/MU*



conditionfreak said:


> One thing I would like to mention along these lines. I know several people that do "white dove releases" for weddings and funerals. Prices range from $120 to 320 per release. Depending on the number of birds released.
> 
> What saddens me, is that many of the white dove releasers really don't care much if the white pigeon comes home or not. It the birds do. Great. If they don't, then the owner just sold a pigeon or three, for $50 each.
> 
> ...


tHEY ARE TRAINED JUST LIKE MY RACE BIRDS, AS MATTER OF FACT IVE RACED THE WHITEs.
if CONDITIONS ARENT RIGHT THEY DONT GET RELEASED MY BIRDS ARE FIRST. PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE THAT ARENT PIGEON PEOPLE THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING OF PIGEONS AND ARE TRYING TO MAKE A BUCK. My birds are trained out out 300 miles, and going to 600. bECAUSE THEY LOVE TO FLY Ive bred birds 50 years I know how to train a bird. So don't act like all people are like that.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

renabailey said:


> I HAVE HAD CROWS PROTECT MY BIRDS MANY TIMES FROM HAWKS AND iVE NEVER SEEN A SEAGULL ATTACK A PIGEON!


This isn't the first image I have seen of a sea gull attacking a pigeon. I remember watching a video on youtube a few years ago of a sea gull attacking a pigeon on a peer and then being muscled off the peer into the water . It was at this point I ceased watching the video. 

Here is something for you to see for yourself.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

conditionfreak said:


> Well, that does not look like any crow I am familiar with. But I don't know what it is. The only attacks on pigeon by crows that I am familiar with. Are attacks against pigeons unable to fly.


It is indeed a crow ... it is known as a *Hooded Crow* ( CORVUS CORNIX )


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

conditionfreak>>> said:


> Secondly. Every time someone allows a pigeon or dove to fly free. It is subject to attack by any number of predators, or to injury from wires, hunters, kids with pellet guns, etc.
> 
> What is supposed to be done with homing pigeons? No free flying? No racing?
> 
> What is to be done with Tipplers, high flyers, Swifts, etc? No free flying? No nothing but being in a cage?


You have a point there, but its not the same thing that has been pointed out by the threadstarter.
Depriveing birds of exercise,tossing and loft flying would be unnatural for them because they are built for this. Also that way, we will deprieve them of their freedom.
Infact,flying and coming back to their loft is what make pigeons UNIQUE of them all bird species. And we can't have control over that if some predator attacks them in mid air when they're flying...that will be nature,cuz'. A predator must have its prey. But releasing a captive,unsuspecting and untrained bird at a totally new location is a different story,which I think should be discussed.

This is what Darren(whytwings) wants to point out,I think. I strongly agree with Darren if the point is using trained birds for the purpose rather than using birds who are just brought out of captivity and who have even forget how to fly well and defend themselves, either they're doves or white homers. Doves are indeed unfit for this job but properly TRAINED homers can be successfully used when it comes down to this bussiness.
It would be sinful to release an untrained birds whether doves or homers at a new location far from home. Appropriate thing would be to release trained homers who've been tossed before with polished skills of flying acrobatics to defend themselves from predators,have stamina to fly and make a run for it and tuned their skills of homing back to their loft. If a predator catches such a pigeon when released then I would call it nature without feeling guilty of releasing a bird as a bait in the name of peace.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Thank you brocky , your interpretation of what I was trying to get across is correct !


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

brocky bieber said:


> Oh soRRy altgirl35,
> You took the word the other way around.
> Its cynical of those people who treat their birds like this. IME sometimes, the birds I thought to be not that good,turned out to be one of the bests with proper training. Some take their ybirds out for like 15kms in their first toss and some yb get lost but people don't realise that with proper training those birds would have become good homers.
> 
> ...


I have a terrible time keeping the seagulls away from my ferals. I had this very notorious seagull and his mate. He would pick up a pigeon or a starling right in front of me and head slam it into the ground. He seemed to enjoy this and killed about 5 of my ferals and a couple of starlings like this. He would also enjoy grabbing the pigeons by the tail and tearing the tails out. He never ate the birds, just killed them. I finally drove him and all other seagulls off by throwing pine cones and acorns at them. By the way, I live by the ocean, we have tons of seagulls here in Vancouver. A month ago I took pity on a baby seagull that was with it's mother, crying for food so I gave it a little something, and damned if the male didn't AGAIN, pick up a pigeon and kill it. Well, that was it for me....there is a large outdoor cement picnic facility with a roof on it and benches there. I can keep the seagulls out. They know I am not letting them in. If they try, I scare them off. Also regarding crows. I have a crow following and they do protect my pigeons by sounding a warning and they never bother them. They get a little cheese and egg as their reward. They are adorable and a great alarm system.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

What you say makes allot of sense, brockiy bieber


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

O yes, I do the same thing with hawks that you do with seaguls. When I spot a hawk I keep staring at him and have a stick in my hand to foil his attempt of an attack. I do throw stuff at him when he come too close for comfort,he's so bold.

Crows on the other hand are both friends and fiends. In spring(march) they start to build nests and then they fiercely protect their turf. When any hawk comes around they bother and tease him until he leaves. And also make alarm calls alerting every bird around but they are cunning predators too. They have taken many of my fledgelings in the past when they enter via trap. And they also harras ybs when they are caged on landing board to get used to the loft. Fortunately they can't reach them in the cage.
One thing I hate about crows is that they protect their nest so aggressively that they peck people on the head when they nest in the tree next to my house. Pecked me several times. Sometimes they peck so hard that blood comes out and the scratch gets infected.(I remember last summer,the crow pecked at a bald guy's head so hard that blood came out. He requested my neighbor to cut the big branch on which crows were starting to nest but the crow pair reserved another spot for them on the same tree)
When crows gather around somewhere, the hawks do come in to check if there's some dead animal and if they can have something for free.
So I welcome the resident pair of crow in summers as they protect their turf sending hawks packing but in winter I chase both hawks and crows as well.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes, the crows can be real scamp. I always advise people who complain about their dive-bombing during nesting season to take an umbrella with you, and be willing to put it up, that way they hit the umbrella, and not your head. I also find that a crow will never forget if you mistreated him and he will tell all his flock and pals. Best to give them a little piece of cheese than get a thorough pecking! lol


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yea,crows do remember/recognise persons differently that's why they don't let a chance slide by to peck me on my head cuz I don't let them sit on my rooftop. I'll try bribing them with cheese this season to see if they stop attacking me and become my friends


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

*Lengthy, but thought provoking after so many responses to this thread --*

So much has been said here, I won't copy and paste. I'll try to recall all that'
s been said in this already lengthy discussion.

First, *it is absolutely WRONG for members to ASSUME that ALL fanciers of white birds do not care about their birds.* Thats like saying an entire race is bad, stupid, gang bangers etc. Its simply not true, and too wide of a brush stroak.

There are other people "out there" that do not band their birds - you just cant as readily see it as a colored bird and think nothing of it. A white bird stands out more to you.

Second, I feel a lot of this is *LACK of EDUCATION!!* My guess (although I do not know) that someone at the Vatican is unaware that not all birds "home"(homing abilities). I can easily see someone threre just believing that the birds automatically fly home.

Have you noticed the Oylmics are currently underway? _Do you recall the Souel Olympics in 1988_? They took untrained birds (white ones) and released them just prior to the torch being lit. The birds not knowing what to do, sat attop the colusume (sp) and on the torch it's self. The birds that were still flying in a daze flew into the flames, and those that were sitting on the unlit torch were immidately fried.... 

Do I think we should ban flying white birds? Absoluely not!! But I think those getting involved wheter it be for a hobby, or a one time event corodinator should do their homework and not take the 'best deal'. We don't stop flying cause a jet didn't make it to it's destination yesterday.... PLENTY of planes reach their destinations each day without incident, it's only the ones that didn't that you hear about -- Much like the Pope's situation this week. Plenty of White BIRD releases happen daily without incidents as well.

Third, *DOVE VS PIGEON* - let's educate the FANCIERS among us shall we? From all my research, there is NO REAL DIFFERENCE. Quote: "There is no strict division between pigeons and doves" 
( https://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/families/pigeons.aspx )
The biggest difference I see when someone talks about the difference is mostly terminology. The two things I see are, 1. Doves tend to thought of as a 'smaller' bird, and 2. the term "DOVE" is used as a MARKETING TOOL as it is 'loftier' sounding than "PIGEON" to the buyer. It doesn't matter if the consumer is interested in the physical purchase of the bird from a fancier or pet store. If it is for the 'rental' of an event (Weddings, funerals, etc) the same mindset comes into play.


I think the human race has gotten so use to shopping in supermarkets that many have forgotten where your food comes from. I really don't care if you eat meat or not, and care even less why you don't.... Personal choices and I respect that. But in your closing of the door, you have forgotten why hunting is important - there is a *CIRCLE OF LIFE.* So please don't preach about "helpless animals being hunted" until you have walked in a hunter's boot and practiced TRUE hunting skills, _you will find that their sport isn't as easy as you think from the outside.... Hummm just release the birds and they fly away! Come on folks, is it really that easy? Don't you breed for traits, don't you spend time TRAINING your birds if you are a TRUE FANCIER??_ Finally on this subject, for those who have forgotten, or never knew... TRUE Hunter's are putting food on the table. They are feeding their families and teaching their children the true need to keep checks and balances in the wild. If you have too much of any animal, you will encounter more horrific animal deaths from disease and starvation. This is why officials issue licences for record keeping, check hunter stations, and take numbers of animals in a given area. So if you don't like hunting, remember the hunters play an important role in our ecosystem as you pave over the animals habitat/ground...

Making a buck with white birds. I completely understand where spirit wings was coming from, I even agree with her/his opinion -- while the comment was a bit gruff, I do understand the feelings it creates when so many here are not thinking of the things I've just outlined. You can't lump all of us in one group who keep and fancy white birds.

And yes, I do welcome your feed back to my lengthy comments.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

whytwings said:


> A picture of the crow with a dove from the release


If this is a picture from the release. It is clear the white bird is a homing pigeon as we say. But remember in Europe many people call a pigeon a dove. And even say they have racing doves Not racing pigeons. Because pigeon are What decendents of the Rock dove.. Far as White pigeons or white release. one When people forget over many years the art of selection And breed just for color one gets blind to the idea. This reduces homing instinct.. While breeding the whites one must maintain a SELECTION point of breeding. And you color out cross as needed. to improve And or carry on that Quality. Some people look at the POOR pigeon as being abused IF flown. What about the wild ferals that live that short life. ABOUT 3 years on average. Where the loft birds. Flown can often live well over 10 to 15 years. Look close at the picture. Enlarge it and you will see it is a homing pigeon/ dove


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

Silver Wings said:


> I feel a lot of this is LACK of EDUCATION!!
> 
> ... Come on folks, is it really that easy? Don't you breed for traits, don't you spend time TRAINING your birds if you are a TRUE FANCIER??



Exactly! It's lack of education from selective breeding, to knowledge of how the birds will be able (or not) have homing skills. 

As Fanciers, we should be educating others to reduce these happenings.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

How does anyone know the Vatican doesn't have a pigeon loft? They may raise white homers for occasions the same as Disney land. Im sure these birds aren't being abused. I wouldnt think twice about releasing my birds when seagulls or crows are around. Sometimes freaky things happen. Sometimes I release them when there isn't a bird in site and lo and behold a hawk appears out of nowhere. Does that make me careless and cruel. I think not.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

beatlemike said:


> How does anyone know the Vatican doesn't have a pigeon loft? They may raise white homers for occasions the same as Disney land. Im sure these birds aren't being abused. I wouldnt think twice about releasing my birds when seagulls or crows are around. Sometimes freaky things happen. Sometimes I release them when there isn't a bird in site and lo and behold a hawk appears out of nowhere. Does that make me careless and cruel. I think not.


True. Things do happen when nature takes control. Can not control nature


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Silver Wings said:


> you have forgotten why hunting is important - there is a *CIRCLE OF LIFE.* So please don't preach about "helpless animals being hunted" until you have walked in a hunter's boot and practiced TRUE hunting skills, _you will find that their sport isn't as easy as you think from the outside.... Finally on this subject, for those who have forgotten, or never knew... TRUE Hunter's are putting food on the table. They are feeding their families and teaching their children the true need to keep checks and balances in the wild._


_

Firstly , for the most part ....I think that your post had merit in a lot of it's paragraphs.

....but you paragraphs on hunting made me feel a little sick and it did not sit well for me . We have come along way since man came out of the caves and took their battons and hunted , when they did it was to sustain life . There are again instances where humans today still hunt , perhaps they live in jungles , are lost or marooned or live so far from a populated area it's what they have to do to survive .

*Humans* are only a handful of species that hunt for *sport* as you so kindly pointed out , for most hunting people that is exactly what it is . It makes me angry when I hear comments from hunters about keeping checks and balances in the world ....Just who the hell gave humans the right to make such judgements ....when they are doing a pathetic job of looking after this planet thus far.....as far as I see it ....the term of keeping checks and balances is their justification that what they do somehow serves a purpose and validates their *sport*.

I wonder who is responsible for keeping the checks and balances on the human species which can't even house and feed it's own people ...this isn't just happening in some far away country....it's happening in some of the richest countries in the world , mine included .

Hunt to sustain life , but as a sport it revolts me .

you said you'd welcome feedback .....In actual fact I wish that the whole hunting subject had not found it's way into the thread , it really had no bearing on what the thread was about and can sometimes incite arguements just as if it was a subject on religion , sex or politics _


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

Hello whytwings,

Thank you for your comments. I am sorry that my comments on hunting did not sit well with you. While it is true that there are many who 'hunt' and leave you feel the way that you do, they in my book are NOT true hunters. True hunters do act with responsibility and care for the ecosystem. I think it is like many things in life where the dark shadows overbear that some do right. 

I would not have brought this up, and would not have included it at all, but it was brought up by another member previously in this thread prior to my initial post. (#23, I will post it in it's entirety so no one feels I have removed the context of the post).



conditionfreak said:


> Well, that does not look like any crow I am familiar with. But I don't know what it is. The only attacks on pigeon by crows that I am familiar with. Are attacks against pigeons unable to fly. That picture is mighty interesting.
> 
> Secondly. Every time someone allows a pigeon or dove to fly free. It is subject to attack by any number of predators, or to injury from wires, hunters, kids with pellet guns, etc.
> 
> ...


Again, my portion regarding the topic of hunters deals with 'real hunters' and the need for a well balanced ecosystem. I don't care for anyone of any species suffer. Frogs tell us more about an ecosystem more than any other living thing. We need to pay more attention to our ecosystem -- IMHO. I feel we all play a role, animals and humans alike. So that is why it came up in my post.

Regarding your post - You are right, there are a handful of creatures that hunt for sport. (Infact, I was reading in this very forum earlier today how one member was very upset about a bird killing another bird 'for sport' as he never ate the birds he killed (repeatedly)). 
Some humans unfortunately fall more to the 'sport' side of it as well. There is a real 'sport' line and 'feed' line in my book. I don't think it is right to just 'take' and not have reason for it. That is my personal set of morals. 
Any meat, in any store, is killed by someone... so yes, as a species we have left the cave and now carry money and visit stores for meat. There's nothing wrong with not liking to hunt on a personal level. I'm not here to judge one way or another. But I do think it needs to be done with forethought and respect. 

There are many things in life that we all do not like, and don't find 'right'.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

There is really no need to discuss hunting in a thread about a bird release at the Vatican. Hunting can be an explosive topic here, and really has no bearing on the original thread. Please, can we get the this back on track. Thanks!


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Silver Wings said:


> Hello whytwings,
> 
> 
> There are many things in life that we all do not like, and don't find 'right'.


Indeed Silver Wings......this is too true


Kind Regards ,


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Silver Wings said:


> So much has been said here, I won't copy and paste. I'll try to recall all that'
> s been said in this already lengthy discussion.
> 
> First, *it is absolutely WRONG for members to ASSUME that ALL fanciers of white birds do not care about their birds.* Thats like saying an entire race is bad, stupid, gang bangers etc. Its simply not true, and too wide of a brush stroak.
> ...


I will try to stick to what's relevant to the thread.
If your saying that there no strict difference between doves and pigeons is true then my saying that there's no strict difference between orangutans/chimps and humans would also be true. But is that the whole truth???
No denying the fact that doves and pigeons have almost common eating and breeding habits but now the species have developed themselves so distinctively that this "no difference" thing sound so immature. They have difference in their cooing,dancing behaviour,living style and selection of nest sites etc. And theres certainly much difference between a morph/white dove and a white racing homing pigeon. You can't train a dove to loft flying,route and home back when released.
Whether you name them doves or pigeons,but there's lotta difference between a dove and racing pigeon. Point in this thread was not to use untrained birds for release bussiness which are bound to face horrible deaths. Doves aint fit for this bussiness,they can't be released to home back as they are whole lot different from white racing homers. Whether you call white homers white doves but the fact of the matter is trained birds that donot suffer when released and can home back should be released when it comes down to release bussiness. Captive untrained doves(unfit for jod and strictly different from white racers)/pigeons being released at a new location is what needs to be stopped.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Silver Wings said:


> .
> I think the human race has gotten so use to shopping in supermarkets that many have forgotten where your food comes from. I really don't care if you eat meat or not, and care even less why you don't.... Personal choices and I respect that. But in your closing of the door, you have forgotten why hunting is important - there is a *CIRCLE OF LIFE.* So please don't preach about "helpless animals being hunted" until you have walked in a hunter's boot and practiced TRUE hunting skills, _you will find that their sport isn't as easy as you think from the outside.... Hummm just release the birds and they fly away! Come on folks, is it really that easy? Don't you breed for traits, don't you spend time TRAINING your birds if you are a TRUE FANCIER??_ Finally on this subject, for those who have forgotten, or never knew... TRUE Hunter's are putting food on the table. They are feeding their families and teaching their children the true need to keep checks and balances in the wild. If you have too much of any animal, you will encounter more horrific animal deaths from disease and starvation. This is why officials issue licences for record keeping, check hunter stations, and take numbers of animals in a given area. So if you don't like hunting, remember the hunters play an important role in our ecosystem as you pave over the animals habitat/ground...
> 
> And yes, I do welcome your feed back to my lengthy comments.


I hear what almondman says, not to talk about hunters but I think its relevant to the thread. I do welcome your thoughts Silver Wings.
But while talking about hunters(natural) and circle of life, you didn't trace the key fact on which ecosystem is based. NATURE put hunters in the play to keep the ecosystem in shape by designing hunters to eliminate and scavenge the sick,injured,weak,helpless,old,young,handicapp,dead out of the scene to support and benefit the healthy populations which we believe to be natural theory of survival of the fittest. This is the prime work of (natural)hunters.
By releasing captive,untrained and unnatural prey(bait) in the nature we're actually interfering with nature's laws. One-hunters can become dependant on such prey and forget to do their job for what nature intended them to do. Two-there population can also expolde. Three-they may condition their young to chase white easy birds(pickings) as prey igonring their natural prey e.g, vermins and sick prey which in turn harm humans/nature. Four-your hunters can become free loaders,then would you respect a freeloader as your majestic hunter.

So to say, pigeons(fancy) are not something that exists naturally. They were bred selectively by humans to suit their tastes,craves and benefits. Infact,breeds like frillbacks,rollers,fantails,white racers/doves I mean almost all fancy pigeon breeds can't survive in wild. They are what I would call artificial hybrids created by humans, for humans. I would not call such birds to be natural prey to natural hunters. Why your "hunters" immediately attack white birds cuz now they know that these birds can't avoid them and is a free meal so they attack them on sight. So by releasing such untrained birds into the nature,we're interfering in your "circle of life". This is what this thread points at


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

If you're talking about nature's hunters, as compared to human hunters, I can see the point of discussion. But we need to tread lightly even with natures hunters as discussing the killing of any animals, but especially pigeons(our forum), is against forum rules. 

I don't perceive any problem with brocky's last post, or others like it, but again, please keep it in that context, rather than human hunters, or the actual killing of birds. Does this make any sense?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Brocky. I think you are far off in your thoughts. ONE white racers/homers. Are just a color. IF you had ten white racers and 1 blue which bird would stand out. The blue bird would. All pigeons left to there own would revert back to the wild state in type in a few years. They are maintained and cultivated by man. But left to there owqn they are not maintained as a standard of breed. AND these white doves that was attacked. Were as I saw the pictures Were White homing pigeons. Can you Or anybody see the future. And know that say thisi release these birds were going to be attacked. By a crow and a seagull. NO. And perhaps as mentioned they birds did have a loft to return to. I agree REAL white doves As many call them Are not bred for a realease. as they are not trained to do so Nor bred to do so. BUT AS I did say there are places that do and still call what many call a pigeon a type of a dove.. ANY time nature gains control it sets the rules. What happened did just that it happened HOW many thousands of white homing pigeons were let go to fly that same day that suvived very well. MAN does have an obligation To give the proper selection and training needed To maintain a type of bird that can fly well and get home. THAT is a break down By a few. But many more do try to raise they right type of bird.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Far off in thoughts! Hmmmm. But wouldnt call that fair.
Well,you're true. In flock of 10 whites a blue bird would stand out without a doubt. But how many feral blue birds will that bird resemble in the wild??? If such a bird sits in a big flock of feral blues then can somebody easily spot it. Whereas, whether a single or a flock of whites,it/they can be spoted by hunters from kms.
Do you think breeds like jacobins which can't even see properly,fantails that can even carry themselves in air for long, trumpters,pouters etc can live and reproduce in the wild sucessfully??? I've never seen any of such breeds living and reproducing successfully in the wild. Have you??? Performing breeds like homers may stand a chance but fancy breeds...IDTS.
This is what I've been trying to get to


re lee;> said:


> MAN does have an obligation To give the proper selection and training needed To maintain a type of bird that can fly well and get home. THAT is a break down By a few. But many more do try to raise they right type of bird.


Thanks


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

brocky bieber said:


> Far off in thoughts! Hmmmm. But wouldnt call that fair.
> Well,you're true. In flock of 10 whites a blue bird would stand out without a doubt. But how many feral blue birds will that bird resemble in the wild??? If such a bird sits in a big flock of feral blues then can somebody easily spot it. Whereas, whether a single or a flock of whites,it/they can be spoted by hunters from kms.
> Do you think breeds like jacobins which can't even see properly,fantails that can even carry themselves in air for long, trumpters,pouters etc can live and reproduce in the wild sucessfully??? I've never seen any of such breeds living and reproducing successfully in the wild. Have you??? Performing breeds like homers may stand a chance but fancy breeds...IDTS.
> This is what I've been trying to get to
> ...


AND a flock of blue colored birds can be seen from a distance. Then the birds you talk of were not and are not bred to be flown. So that becomes mute in point. bUT yes some paople are lets say Not smart enough to relize it. And some think just flying a pigeon is cruel. So which is right which is wrong. All faults can be made a point but yet man forgets the biggest fault. AND that is MAN its self. Man changes natures way and looks the other way at nature. BUT does he mean this as harm. NO but yet man is at fault. After all we are jusr human is a thought said by many And misunderstood. WE make mistakes. BUT nature never does


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

re lee said:


> *AND a flock of blue colored birds can be seen from a distance. Then the birds you talk of were not and are not bred to be flown. So that becomes mute in point.* bUT yes some paople are lets say Not smart enough to relize it. And some think just flying a pigeon is cruel. So which is right which is wrong. All faults can be made a point but yet man forgets the biggest fault. AND that is MAN its self. Man changes natures way and looks the other way at nature. BUT does he mean this as harm. NO but yet man is at fault. After all we are jusr human is a thought said by many And misunderstood. WE make mistakes. BUT nature never does


Ofcourse a flock of any type of bird can be spotted from kms. But my point was that a blue bird wouldn't be spotted by predators/hunters easily in a flock of blue birds. A blue bird can mix up and is less prone to attacks but a white bird would be a prime target as he would stand out in the crowd. This is what happened to doves/pigeons that Pope released.
Flying pigeons aint wrong IMO,but "MAN does have an obligation To give the proper selection and training needed To maintain a type of bird that can fly well and get home. THAT is a break down By a few. But many more do try to raise they right type of bird."

This site is against the exploitation of pigeons. This what I wanna say that those two released pigeons maynot have suffered if their owner would have trained them and Pope would have known the difference. To avoid such incidents in future and to make such people realise of results is what the threadstarter intended and I agree with what whytwings says


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

whytwings said:


> Initially when I started this thread ....I was led to believe that they were actual doves that were being used , being the vatican I understand that with traditions there can be a reluctance to change and that was the point I was trying to make about the pope using *doves* when infact white pigeons would adequately do the job without adding more lost and lonely doves on the streets .
> 
> I believe that to do the right job you need the right tools , although doves are a symbol of peace , after they are released for most of them life must be a miserable existance , yet if white pigeons were used they would return home to their loft and caring owners .( hopefully )
> 
> ...


Yes it is clear in the picture. AND the video they were white homing pigeons. /doves as called by some. And they plobably would have went to there loft if they were not attacked. THAT is what I have been trying to say. They were homing pigeons. Some feel just because they are turned loose it is wrong.. Well what are homing pigeons bred for TO FLY HOME. Shame this happened. Every person is not ready to except what it takes to raise pigeons But by far white pigeons are not a curse


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

gbhman said:


> The releasing of the white pigeons was a symbolic gesture and not an exploit... big difference. And how can you say that the birds were not trained? Are you trying to say that a trained bird will NOT be attacked while out of its home loft??? Things can and do happen to birds of all colors in nature and not just white ones. This was an unlikely freak incident and nothing more.



Exactly. How do you know that these birds were not properly trained? You don't know anything about them, and cannot just assume anything. Even well trained birds get grabbed by predators, and I think we all know that. This could just have been one of those freak things that unfortunately happen.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

gbhman said:


> The releasing of the white pigeons was a symbolic gesture and not an exploit... big difference. And how can you say that the birds were not trained? Are you trying to say that a trained bird will NOT be attacked while out of its home loft??? Things can and do happen to birds of all colors in nature and not just white ones. This was an unlikely freak incident and nothing more.


I also fly birds and flying certainly ain't their exploitation. But when released,racing homers donot waste time hanging around yet alone sitting and relaxing on nearby buildings around where they are released. If you have an eye of a fancier you would have already seen the difference. Properly TRAINED birds when released circle around the place to determine their location and then immediately figure out the direction they should head to reach their home.
If these two released pigeons were trained ones then they wouldnt have got into grip of a crow and a gull. Even my young highflyers can easily outpace a crow. And here we're talking about RACING birds,oh come on guys. Do you still think those two birds were trained??? Jesus

Well, if these two released birds were trained ones then the attack is Nature in its Glory. Which I've already pointed out.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

You're getting me wrong. So please allow me repeat this again,rightfully.
*


brocky bieber said:



You have a point there, but its not the same thing that has been pointed out by the threadstarter.
Depriveing birds of exercise,tossing and loft flying would be unnatural for them because they are built for this. Also that way, we will deprive them of their freedom.
Infact,flying and coming back to their loft is what make pigeons UNIQUE of them all bird species. And we can't have control over that if some predator attacks them in mid air when they're flying...that will be nature,cuz'. A predator must have its prey. But releasing a captive,unsuspecting and untrained bird at a totally new location is a different story,which I think should be discussed.

This is what Darren(whytwings) wants to point out,I think. I strongly agree with Darren if the point is using trained birds for the purpose rather than using birds who are just brought out of captivity and who have even forget how to fly well and defend themselves, either they're doves or white homers. Doves are indeed unfit for this job but properly TRAINED homers can be successfully used when it comes down to this bussiness.
It would be sinful to release an untrained birds whether doves or homers at a new location far from home. Appropriate thing would be to release trained homers who've been tossed before with polished skills of flying acrobatics to defend themselves from predators,have stamina to fly and make a run for it and who've tuned their skills of homing back to their loft in a minimum possible time. That kinda bird should be used for release at a totally new location. If a predator catches such a pigeon when released then I would call it nature without feeling guilty of releasing a bird as a bait in the name of peace.

Click to expand...

*


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

IMO - If their loft was close enough by, and they felt comfortable in the area, they might not rush off. And I might be mistaken, as I don't race, but isn't there a certain amount of time that it takes a bird to orient itself before making that mad dash for home. 

And for all we know, the crow and gull were obviously very close by when the release was made. Nothing about this scenario seems natural, and yet we have the video and pictures proving that it happened. Whether trained or not, the attack occurred. Trained or untrained, hawk or gull/crow, da facts are da facts.

There is a fairly large population of pigeons, gulls, and I might guess crows that stay around the Vatican because the sightseers feed them. If you ever watch any footage of the crowds assembled in the square, there are usually hundreds of birds flying or on the ground/buildings surrounding it. It might be more common than we know.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I am starting to find this thread like arm chair quater back. every one was not there and yet think they have the answer. As to who could of should done this did that. Truth is it happened . Were the birds trained were they not WERE they very tame and such. Who knows. We can all debate this to death OR except the fact it happened and can happen agin. And to tell the truth. it ended up on the web so people cxould see. How great we are. Posting anything and expecting the world can be saved. Lets get real.. If something can happen it will happen remember those words. They have been said many times. Lets move on let this thread die we can not change the what ifs. BUT if you firmly believe you have the great idea that will save the world have at it. I have given enough thought to this thread to not need to say any more


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

If you are finding this thread boring.....why post in it ?

Just because your finding it " arm chair " like , doesn't mean that other people are.....members may still have something constructive to add it , or they may have their own thoughts on the matter or have something further to contribute to it and they should be able to do so without the suggestion to let a thread die on your say so .


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

re lee said:


> I am starting to find this thread like arm chair quater back.* every one was not there and yet think they have the answer. As to who could of should done this did that. Truth is it happened . Were the birds trained were they not WERE they very tame and such. Who knows. * We can all debate this to death OR except the fact it happened and can happen agin. And to tell the truth. it ended up on the web so people cxould see. How great we are. Posting anything and expecting the world can be saved. Lets get real.. If something can happen it will happen remember those words. They have been said many times. Lets move on let this thread die we can not change the what ifs. BUT if you firmly believe you have the great idea that will save the world have at it. I have given enough thought to this thread to not need to say any more


Yea,who knows what was the situation really like! But two pigeons suffered and PT works for the well being of pigeons. The motive of this thread was to bring light to the incident so that such incidents donot happen to poor untrained birds again,this is how we assume it. Atleast we can hope so!
"Whats ifs" have no sure answer to them and we shouldn't be discussing them by considering the odds, instead we should get the message of this thread that innocent and untrained birds shouldn't be used for release bussiness.
Those who care for their birds shall not feel offended as this thread doesn't mean to abuse them in anyway. But this thread just give message to those who release the untrained birds out and those who give them their innocent birds to be released and do all this to make a symbolic peace gesture without considering what may happen to the innocent peace messengers.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Hold on!!!!! I never saw anything that stated that the birds died. According to a press story they both lost some feathers but flew off. And no one knows if they were untrained birds or not. I agree that everyone has a right to express their opinions about this, but not by suggesting facts not in evidence. Did I miss a post or press release stating these "facts".


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

I wasn't aware that they died either ...do you know something different brocky ?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I just went back and checked several different news story's and none said that they died.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

renabailey said:


> tHEY ARE TRAINED JUST LIKE MY RACE BIRDS, AS MATTER OF FACT IVE RACED THE WHITEs.
> if CONDITIONS ARENT RIGHT THEY DONT GET RELEASED MY BIRDS ARE FIRST. PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE THAT ARENT PIGEON PEOPLE THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING OF PIGEONS AND ARE TRYING TO MAKE A BUCK. My birds are trained out out 300 miles, and going to 600. bECAUSE THEY LOVE TO FLY Ive bred birds 50 years I know how to train a bird. So don't act like all people are like that.


Reading comprehension is your friend.

I never said "everyone or all". I said several. I did not paint with a broad brush.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Oops,that was a hear-say. Yea,no evidence. I've edited the post already. Pardon me


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Like your avatar!!!!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thank you. I know you meant signature


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Sooooo true! It's no fun getting old.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

almondman said:


> Sooooo true! It's no fun getting old.


Indeed ! .... no fun when bits and pieces start falling off and hairs start sprouting from ya ears


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

You too!!!! I felt so all alone. it's really bad when a barber cuts more hair out of your ears(and nostrils) than they do from your head. UGH!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Ewwwwww 
But there might be somethings graceful about getting old.


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## Fay S (Jan 21, 2014)

Reading about your crows, I took one in from being burnt when caught in a bush fire. Nursed it back to health and it came with us when we moved house. Left the cage door open when it could fly properly and for months came back to sleep every night, it was the only one in our area. Such a character, used to fly in under the house and get into mischief in the shed and if we were sitting out come and sit with us. I could just pick it up anytime for cuddles. One night it didn't come back and looked for it very upset. Didn't know if it just left or something had got it. Quite a bit of time went by and one day heard a crow calling so I went outside and answered it and called our 'crowbee'. It didn't come down but sat in the big tree next door and kept calling and next thing a few others came and sat with it. It is not around all the time we live in a busy area - but now and then I know it comes back and I go out and call to it and flies back and forth over the house calling, sits in the tree for a while and then goes off with mates again. My neighbours think I am crazy. Fay S


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

I had always wanted a crow .... at my place of employment some years ago , there was always a crow waiting to share a cup of my hot chips , big beautiful black and glossy and those amazing blue eyes ....and super intelligence , it's not often you see them dead , when I have seen them dead it's usually above a power junction box where they seem to have been electrocuted .

Back then , my partner was a native animal carer and I was hoping that someone would hand in a baby crow so I could hand rear it and keep it as a pet , but it just never ever happened . 

My parents lived out on a property and the neighbouring property had sheep , they are a bit cruel that way when they peck the eyes out of the young lambs , but all that a side they are a formidable bird .


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Aw fay, glad your guy came back, I still have one that was released over 3 yrs ago that comes home everyday for food


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