# My birds are going to get released :D !



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Hi there. I finally got in contact with an avian vet who is dedicating to pigeons!

We talked about the possibilities of my pijjies. He told me that my city was a great place for release, but just not IN the city. We have many rural areas around it where my birds would be able to find food. But he told me that the worst thing I could do for them is to release them inside the city. He told me that the pigeon breeders here kinda hate ferals (like I guessed) and that he recommended that. He said that they'd learn fast and that they don't have natural predators in the rural areas (which is true. Chimangos are mostly scavengers, and they prefer mice to birds... no cats... dogs have little time for such things...). He also said that birds in the city carry many diseases for which birds living in that atmosphere become immune, but that these birds are completely clean and haven't been properly exposed to such climates. In the rural areas there is plenty of food, too.

He told me that I had done a good job (thanks to you!) in the preventive treatment, but he recommended me to go again with the metronidazole (what is the exact dosage? I have 500mg pills of it. I need to weigh my birds but I'll do that later) because I hadn't treated one of the birds and they are in contact. He also recommended me to start on vitamins. I didn't buy vitamins because I didn't know which to pick (because there were so many different mixes) but he told me which ones I should use.

I'll wait for my second bird to have all his feathers (he's still missing some) and then release.

What do you think about this?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How will they know how to find natural food? You can't expect to just take them to the rural country, let them go and then expect them to survive. Pigeons in the wild are taught the ways of the wild, by their parents and these don't have that privilege.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I assume they'll learn first by imitation and second because the natural food is quite similar to the one they eat here. Dunno, that's what the guy told me. He told me to release next to a field where grains are produced or when I found a flock.
They're smart birds, I never actually showed them how to eat or what was food.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

But you put it in front of them. That's all they know. They have no idea how to find it, and wouldn't recognize it if they did. I have rescues in my loft, because they either were let out, or escaped, and didn't make it back to their loft. They were half starved and near death because they had food all around them and had absolutely no idea that it was even there. When a bird is raised by people, and provided their food, they have never learned how or where to find it. Instinct doesn't carry them far. And they have no idea about predators, or even that there ARE predators. And I don't care what that guy told you. Hawks are everywhere. And that is only one of many things that would be glad to kill those birds. He is wrong. You are putting your birds in a situation where they cannot win. I could take my whole loft full of birds and release them next to a field full of grain, and they would all likely die of starvation.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Um... but my birds are ferals. And I picked them up as older birds, while yours probably have been living in captivity for all their lives. They were 20+ days. They see the grains in the grass and pick them up. I made sure of that because first when I wanted to release them I tried to see if they did. What is it that they don't know how to find? I kinda don't see the difference, sorry. (It's not that I don't want to believe it but that I truly don't understand, don't think I'm underestimating you or what you say).

We live in different parts of the world. You can't say hawks are everywhere because you haven't been here. We don't have as many species, and locally it's what we have. Again, they're are mostly scavengers, and I believe they will learn... right? Or how do birds that haven't been exposed to hawks (because we don't have chimangos everywhere) live? That's some of the stuff I don't understand.

I believed he was a trustful source of information since he's been in the field for years . Apparently not.

Ok, if you're confident they won't make it (but you have to be at least 50% sure), I can keep them. What is more, I'd love to keep them. I love pigeons and I'd love to have them as pets. When I said they were non-releasable, I thought I was taking the decision half because of the arguments exposed in the thread half because of my own selfishness. I thought they'd be happier there. But my family won't be happy at all, they thought they had "gotten rid" of them x.x. Not saying that was an impediment, but... they won't understand why they aren't releasable even if they are explained.


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## becege (Mar 12, 2003)

I think that your birds will do just fine once released. They are wild birds. They instinctively know how to find food and avoid predators Do the right thing and release them asap.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't think they are supposed to instinctively know that. But I think they can learn.

As far as the food goes, it was never something you people said it was something to worry. I don't remember who said it, but somebody said that they'd eat anything if they were hungry enough.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2009)

i think they can learn to live in the wild but you just cant expect them to do so by throwing them out there without any other pigeons to guide them to where the food supply is .. the parents and flockmates really do show them the way in the reguards to instincts of survival out in the real world .


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm not going to throw them in the middle of nowhere O.O
I'm planning to find a flock first and release them with that flock. This vet told me they wouldn't have any problem accepting the birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Do you have flocks of pigeons nearby?


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2009)

Pawbla said:


> I'm not going to throw them in the middle of nowhere O.O
> I'm planning to find a flock first and release them with that flock. This vet told me they wouldn't have any problem accepting the birds.


 if the flocks arent near you and you let them go where the flocks are its pretty much the same thing as throwing them out in the middle of nowhere  you have to be sure they are integrating into the flock first ..just wanted to point out that when a strange pigeon comes down with my flock my birds tend to keep their distance for a good while before warming up to them .


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Not nearby. But probably yes in the rural area, since there they live more "naturally". In the city they group in pairs or quartets at most, usually.

And what can I do for them to integrate? Or... can something be done besides standing next to the birds?


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2009)

is there any way for you to attract pigeons to where you live ?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I've been trying to, with diverse kinds of seeds, whole corn, and such.
I've actually today ordered safflower seeds, dunno if they'll be able to get them.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2009)

if you can get the wild ones to come around it would prolly be the best way to integrate your birds into the wild being that they can always come back to you for eatting purposes and protection


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> if you can get the wild ones to come around it would prolly be the best way to integrate your birds into the wild being that they can always come back to you for eatting purposes and protection


Somebody over the other thread I created for deciding if I would release them or not told me pigeons don't do that 

That's what I wanted to do in first place. But I've been having no luck probably for a month x.x


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2009)

babys learn alot thru flock mentality , they like to follow the leader what they see they then do and learn from it .. thats why other older wild birds are a must when letting your youngins go to learn from .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have a feral flock that comes to my yard, so if I were to do a soft release of a couple of pigeons into that flock, it would take time. And I would keep a shelter for them with food and water for as long as it took them to be able to learn to live wild. They would know where to go for food if they needed to. Then hopefully, eventually, they wouldn't need to come back to me for food. It's a transition. Not just putting them out and expecting them to be able to forage on their own. They have to learn, and that takes time. That way, you are still there for them as long as they need you to be. You hope that eventually, they won't need you.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Would they learn even at older ages?

If I go there and find a flock, how many times should they meet them while caged to consider releasing them? Should I go there every day and feed them?

I don't know, this seems kinda complicated. It's all what I wanted to do in the beginning, but this doesn't seem possible.

Over all, what do you think would be best FOR THE BIRDS? Flock (in the conditions I have), pets, or take them to some loft? I'm afraid they'll just cull them at a loft.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i would release where you are also, city piji's are just as hardy as rural ones, and if they know where to come for consistent food and water everyday, which you put out for them.
they will rely on that food supply while they figure out how to survive out there, do your best to make sure they don't like people too much, that's one thing that can get them in trouble once freed.
i know alot of people on the board believe a hand raised piji should never be released, but i feel differently, i know some survive, i can't say all do, but i know some do because they visit for food on occasion and i have banded them and seen them with different flocks around the city.
that is what wildlife rehabilitation is, we don't raise pets, we help them get through whatever trouble they got into and the goal is to get them back to the wild as soon as they are ready.
if i kept every orphan i raised i would have hundreds of birds as pets, including a couple hundred seagulls (what a nightmare that would be!! so messy sooo stinky, and what a racket they would make, my neighbors would run me out of town).
i know some probably didn't make it, but i know a lot did, if they were all doomed to a certain death i would stop what i'm doing today, what would be the point, and i could have my summers back and live like a normal person again.
i do think support feeding is the most important thing you can do for them.
you need to be sure they are fully weaned and eating, in perfect feather and are strong flyers.
they need to have appropriate fear of people and domestic animals, if you have a cat or dog that they have no fear of they will be doomed for sure.
i did send you some spartix that treats canker.
i see no reason to treat them unless they are showing symptoms of it


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

becege said:


> I think that your birds will do just fine once released. They are wild birds. They instinctively know how to find food and avoid predators Do the right thing and release them asap.


In a perfect world, that would be the case wouldn't it? But in this world, they would die. Wild pigeons, bred pigeons. Pigeons are pigeons. They learn from their parents and from their flock. These birds have learned nothing that would prepare them for the wild.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

He didn't say it was specifically for canker, he said it was to get them "clean". So prob he was referring to it.

Is there any ways to increase their fears towards people and animals? They do react, but... I still don't feel comfortable with the reaction.

I know, it was my original intention. But then I saw I apparently needed a flock to release them, which I don't. Less than anything, one in my backyard.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

This makes me remember my thread with the small bird and the metronidazole. Some "pulled the rope" saying he needed treatment asap, while the other "pulled" saying he did not need treatment at all, hehe.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The best thing is to give them shelter in your yard. A safe place where they can come and go and where they have food and water available. Eventually they will explore but they will have the safe place to return if they get into trouble or need your help. As they mature, the hope is that they will find a flock and integrate into it.
The expert you spoke to was undoubtedly well intentioned but not experienced in feral Pigeon release in my opinion.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Nope, he was a vet, not a rehabber. I thought he would know about their behavior.

So, you think I should release them in my backyard, even though there are cats are chimangos nearby? In the city chimangos are more hunters than scavengers due to the lack of dead animals (little or no roadkill, dead animals removed quickly...).
There's a cat that visits my backyard every night for example.

Should I make a big cage anyways? Or the change of their "home" will be bad rather than benefitial to them?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You need to build something in your back yard for them, that is safe from predators. You need to keep them in there for a week until they get used to where they are before you give them the option to come and go.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Ok. Thanks. I'll see what I do.


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## frankie1159 (Sep 10, 2008)

*I've released my feral pigeons*

and they just come back! 

I've rescued many ferals with broken wing or leg or other and all but 1 has returned to the loft where they are fed and nurtured after I have given them the opportunity to leave. I let my birds out (including the ferals- I only have 2 ferals now) at least 3 or 4 times a week & they all willingly come back in, and the ferals follow them. They never leave. I suppose that I could take them away to where I found them, but why? If they wanted to go, they would go on their very own when I let them out I suppose?

I also have about 10 doves & 1 has escaped by accident...he has been living in a tree of ours now for 5 months. I put a shelf in the tree where I put his food & water & the guy practically dive bombs me when I leave my house as a reminder that he would like to be fed! I know I should catch him but I see him hunting & pecking with the wild doves on a regular basis. I'm not going to bother. He's happy. If he dies out there, he's going to die happy. Looks like it anyway.

Yep! We have hawks all over...still I turn my pigeons out & so far so good. I check the sky first before I open the doors & believe me- when the hawks come- the birds fly right back in to the loft...and if they don't I just shake the seed dishes & they do...

MERRY CHRISTMAS Y'ALL


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Thanks for the input!

The difference is that they flock in your loft. But I hope the cats stay out, and I'm going to try this. I'll let them get used to their new "house" (I'm getting them a big cage) and if they want to leave, they will. If not, well, better for me, lol!
They're lovely animals. My cousins have let my bedroom's door open a few times, and they haven't gone out (it has to be closed ALWAYS because of the birds AND the dogs). That scares me a bit, if they will or not leave.

The guys have safflower seeds! I need to go and pick them up after Christmas (and my bday by the way ;3 ). I bought raw peanuts too.

Merry Christmas!


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## bundyray (Nov 7, 2009)

Oh I like my birds a little more orderly I think if you took them in you should've been prepared to keep them permanently.Otherwise you should've just left them where you found them. Unless of course they are native to your area? If the birds are an introduced (I thought we were discussing pigeons?) then your an environmental vandal !


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

bundyray said:


> Oh I like my birds a little more orderly I think if you took them in you should've been prepared to keep them permanently.


"Orderly"? I wanted to release them, because they are ferals and they belong to the wild. And I think they'd be happier there.
I never opposed to keep them. I just think they'll be better in the wild, living the life of a normal pigeon. My mother said, in her exact words "you ruined their lives, then". But I thought they'd be better off at least as pets than dead. But I also believed they'd be happier in the "wild".
If they can't be released, then I can surely keep them. But I can't ask the pijjies, "hey, what would make you two happier? Do you want me to keep you?". So that's why I'm asking you all.



bundyray said:


> Otherwise you should've just left them where you found them.


And let them die? At least if I can't keep them (and they can't be released) I'll give them to somebody else who will love them as much as I do.



bundyray said:


> Unless of course they are native to your area? If the birds are an introduced (I thought we were discussing pigeons?) then your an environmental vandal !


Not sure about what you mean. I mean, pigeons were introduced to the continent by Europeans so they aren't native in any way. They are now found in the whole continent. We are discussing pigeons; normal, feral pigeons.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

bundyray said:


> Oh I like my birds a little more orderly I think if you took them in you should've been prepared to keep them permanently.Otherwise you should've just left them where you found them. Unless of course they are native to your area? If the birds are an introduced (I thought we were discussing pigeons?) then your an environmental vandal !



Well, not everyone who tries to help a sick or injured bird, can keep them permanently. In taking them in, you are trying to give them a chance. If by helping them, you were committing to forever, than I wonder how many rehabbers we would have, or how many birds would die out there who just needed a little help. It's not the releasing that is wrong necessarily, but in doing it in a responsible way that will insure that the birds DO have that chance at a life. To try to help them, and then release in a way that isn't going to help them to survive, well, that's just a waste of time. In that case, you might as well just leave them there to die in the first place. But if released in a soft release, and in a way that will keep them safe, then it is far better than not having helped at all.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

This thread is alarming me a bit. Maybe I skipped over some part of it....so if I did, sorry.

Pawbla....release them where you think best. If the vet recommended the areas on the outskirts of town ..and you go tehre and it looks safe and there are a lot of pigeons...that is OK. 

Or if you think near you is good, that is OK too.

What is alarming is NOT all this discussion about LOCATION. What is alarming is the suggestion/concept..._of just finding a flock, and letting them go !!!!_ 



Pawbla said:


> I assume they'll learn first by imitation and second because the natural food is quite similar to the one they eat here. Dunno, that's what the guy told me. He told me to release next to a field where grains are produced or when I found a flock.
> They're smart birds, I never actually showed them how to eat or what was food.




Again...maybe I am misunderstanding something. But let me just clarify, so we are all on the same page here:

*You have to soft release them*. It is a 6 or 7 day process..... did this vet say you DON'T have to soft-release them ? If he said that...then he is giving you very BAD advice.

I can say with confidence if you just take young birds you have been healing and feeding for weeks and weeks (and they are not already adults who have been able to grow up in the feral world)....they have about a ...5% chance of surviving ......for more than a few days !!!!

Pawbla, these birds were youngsters, yes ? _You have to do soft release method, then_.

As I said, location is up to you...but there is no way those youngsters can survive if they do not go thru 20 minutes/day of soft release process for at least 1 week.

1) Take them in a cage to where feral pigeons are. _It needs to be a cage where they can see out of easily, and where feral pigeons can look into easily._ 

2) Put the cage on the ground. Feed the pigeons around the cage (put out food to lure the feral pigeons near the cage).

3) Keep feeding the ferals outside of the cage. Then drop some food in the cage. Over a few days, the youngsters will copy the way they see the birds outside the cage eating.

4) After 5 minutes of feeding the flock, cough or clap your hands so they startle..just enough to make them startle and take off.

5) Wait a few minutes, then start feeding again so they come back.

6) After a few minutes of them feeding again, startle them again so the take off.

All of this should take about 20 minutes. After 20 minutes...you are done for the DAY.

Then come back 5-7 days MORE and do the same thing....for 20 minutes.

By day #5 or 6....the youngsters in the cage should be copying what the ferals outside of the cage are doing....including: picking at food.....AND...trying to flee when they see the feral pigeons flee.

You CANNOT release your friends until they start trying to flee the way the ferals flee. Once you start seeing them do this (they will react to the flock jumping and fleeing/taking off...and they will try to 'take off' in the cage and follow the flock !)...make sure they do it for 2 more days after the first day you notice they are doing it.

THEN...you can release. THEN they have a decent chance to survive.

Anything less....and they do not have even half a chance of surviving. I know you write that here on this Forum, some people say one thing, and others say the opposite :



becege said:


> I think that your birds will do just fine once released. They are wild birds. They instinctively know how to find food and avoid predators Do the right thing and release them asap.


This is the worst and most erroneous advice you could EVER receive !!!!

NO..._youngsters don't just have this automatic "instinct" which kicks in so all of a sudden they just LEARN everything_... really fast !!!!

Having been fortunate enough to observe how parents raise their babies....the babies fledge and start flying but always stay NEAR the nest...for days and days if not weeks.....taking small hops/flights...going a little further away from the nest each day....but still waiting for their parents to come home. Only GRADUALLY do they start leaving the nest area and following their parents out. They learn from their parents over a period of many, many, many days. 

SOFT RELEASE tries to copy this in a faster fashion.

Pawbla...trust me on this (and PLEASE Forum members chime in (!)....)

I have soft released about 12-15 youngsters over the past 2 years....._*you have to use this method*_ .....or they will just either starve to death or get killed by a predator or a vehicle.

This isn't complicated, and it really only takes 20 minutes out of your day. _They MUST go through this process in order to be released._


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla, Jaye is right. This is the soft release method that is used to insure that the young birds are ready to be let free. They would learn all this from their parents and the flock. As you had them as babies, they never had the chance to learn all this. When I said that my birds, if just released, would not survive, you said that your birds had been older when found. At least 20 days. Well that is still a baby. They weren't out of the nest learning all that they need to know. They were still babies, and so they know no more than a bird hatched in a loft. They need to react the same way that the flock does, in case of predators. That's why they live in flocks. So that there are many eyes to watch for danger. If say, you left them with a flock, and a predator came. The flock would take off, but your little ones would just sit there. They would be sitting ducks to a predator. This is really the safest way to release. If you don't do a soft release the chances of them surviving go WAY down. I know it takes a little time and effort, but after the time and effort you have put into them already, aren't they worth just this much more? Do this and you will know that you did the best that you could for them. That you gave them the best chance that you could to survive.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Jaye said:


> *You have to soft release them*. It is a 6 or 7 day process..... did this vet say you DON'T have to soft-release them ? If he said that...then he is giving you very BAD advice.


I understand that. He said I didn't but I was going to do it anyways.



Jaye said:


> As I said, location is up to you...but there is no way those youngsters can survive if they do not go thru 20 minutes/day of soft release process for at least 1 week.


That was one of the things I wanted to know. Time in the releases, and how much time to go on with the daily feedings in the place. Or it's not necessary after they've been released?


And the thing about your birds, Jay, I thought that at that age they'd be already starting to learn. Of course the reason I found one of my birds was that he didn't know how to survive when he left the nest.


How old should they be for the release?

I know it's time and effort, but I can't drive and I can't like... take them in the bus. They wouldn't allow . So I am "at the mercy" of the rest.


So you definitely think they should be released. Great. One of them has started biting me so I guess she's starting to dislike me? Hahaha . I'll consult this with my parents.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Jaye said:


> Again...maybe I am misunderstanding something.


About that, yes, a bit. I meant that I thought they'd recognize wild food as food too, since they're all seed in the place I'm leaving them. Not that they'd magically learn how to find it.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

i wouldnt even have doubts and dont let anybody convince u not to release your birds.
dont change your mind at all. think about the birds first then think about you.
i think birds are much better off in the wild even if u raised them from day one, they are still feral, 
pigeons are tame birds regardless where they live, downtown, vilage they are just tame. 
so you raising it makes no difference really
its not like they are 10th generation or 20th that been raised by hand
i believe every animal has instinct.. just like we humans
so dont let mnothing discurage u from l;eting them go free.
i am so for it...and no matter how maNy birds i find and raise they will all end up back in the wild regardless how young or how weak they were when i found them..\

so all i do suggest tho is a slow release, let them just see pigeons from the cage, then do thje same thing the next day and the next day, and then just release them to the flock that they been lookin at.
they will be just fine i guarantee. some people on here are just little too overprotective. and if they ask me some people and i dont know exact precentage that have fouhnd ferals and have keept them if u ask me they had made a mistake keeping the birds, and they werre selfish as well .......but that is just my opinion
good luck watching your birds spread their wings and fly....
they are smart birds they will be ok,,, i believe in instinct
im sure u wouldnt starve if u were released into jungle we'll manage and so will they


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Dunno about you, but, being realistic, I'd starve.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

goga82 said:


> i wouldnt even have doubts and dont let anybody convince u not to release your birds.
> dont change your mind at all. think about the birds first then think about you.
> i think birds are much better off in the wild even if u raised them from day one, they are still feral,
> pigeons are tame birds regardless where they live, downtown, vilage they are just tame.
> ...



goga, birds learn from their parents and the flock. Without having time to learn how to survive, THEY WON'T. They don't automatically know how and where to find food. And they don't know about predators. The people on here that are trying to give advice have years of experience, and know how to release, and the importance of doing it right, for the sake of the birds. They are giving very good advice.

And as far as your surviving being dropped off in a jungle..............you wouldn't! You'd eat something poisonous, or be bitten by some poisonous insect or snake that you knew absolutely nothing about, because nobody had the time to teach you of these things. Now, if you had been taught about all these things, then your chances of survival would go up.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

now let me tell u about teh pigeon i had, also a baby, probably 5 days old when i found him ,hand fed, weaned, bla bla bla. me and my pi9geon spent a lot of time outside and i really dont remember showing him to to dig dirt?? how to look inside the dirt for something to eat. and really i never showed this pigeon to fly to me if he see a squirell but he did..
how did i teach him that..huh?????
how did he know?? 
instinct... that is an animal an even to this day none of the super smart scientist cant figure out how is it that they have such a stong survival instinct... animals better than us that has been proven..
anybody that said ferals cant be released really isnt a realistic person in better wortds they don tknow what they talking about,, which also means they really dont know animals as well as they say..
and u honey slow release them,, and you'll see they will be fine... and there isnt a lot to learn cause they all ready know that..


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

goga82 said:


> now let me tell u about teh pigeon i had, also a baby, probably 5 days old when i found him ,hand fed, weaned, bla bla bla. me and my pi9geon spent a lot of time outside and i really dont remember showing him to to dig dirt?? how to look inside the dirt for something to eat. and really i never showed this pigeon to fly to me if he see a squirell but he did..
> how did i teach him that..huh?????
> how did he know??
> instinct... that is an animal an even to this day none of the super ass scientist cant figure out how is it that they have such a stong sutvival instinct... animanls better than us that has been proven..
> ...


 um goga didnt your bird get stepped on , where was the birds instinct of staying out of a big things way there ?? I dont mean to be mean but you really need to stop portraying that you know more about this then you do , this is a life we are taking about and birds need to be taught what to do when they are that young and a soft release gives them the best opportunity to live a fuller life so why are you trying to stop that from happening ? Im really curious since they arent saying to keep these birds in captivity just have a better start at finding their way into the real world ???


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> goga, birds learn from their parents and the flock. Without having time to learn how to survive, THEY WON'T. They don't automatically know how and where to find food. And they don't know about predators. The people on here that are trying to give advice have years of experience, and know how to release, and the importance of doing it right, for the sake of the birds. They are giving very good advice.
> 
> And as far as your surviving being dropped off in a jungle..............you wouldn't! You'd eat something poisonous, or be bitten by some poisonous insect or snake that you knew absolutely nothing about, because nobody had the time to teach you of these things. Now, if you had been taught about all these things, then your chances of survival would go up.


yes they dont automatically know where to find food and water but thats why they had us that had raised them, if not real parents then us.. u feel me... and as u said people tyring to give her good advice about release cause they know about it, means yeah there is people that release birds back. 
i know a lot of rescue organizations that release after bird is ready.. does that mean that they should never be released.......please c' mon
like i said i am for release.
and u shoud also know that animals and us are very different...
instinct in them is more developed than it is in us..
now im sure if somebody dropped u off in god knows where, desert, africa, jungle, u wouldnt know how to find the way home, water.. or whatever in order to survive an dmake it home.. u wouldnt ........but guess what bird would find teh way home.....did their parents teach them how to navigate?? or is it nature?????hm?????
release the birds they are better off with their own kind


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> um goga didnt your bird get stepped on , where was the birds instinct of staying out of a big things way there ?? I dont mean to be mean but you really need to stop portraying that you know more about this then you do , this is a life we are taking about and birds need to be taught what to do when they are that young and a soft release gives them the best opportunity to live a fuller life so why are you trying to stop that from happening ? Im really curious since they arent saying to keep these birds in captivity just have a better start at finding their way into the real world ???


yeah the bird was in the house........wher it wasnt supposed to be


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> um goga didnt your bird get stepped on , where was the birds instinct of staying out of a big things way there ?? I dont mean to be mean but you really need to stop portraying that you know more about this then you do , this is a life we are taking about and birds need to be taught what to do when they are that young and a soft release gives them the best opportunity to live a fuller life so why are you trying to stop that from happening ? Im really curious since they arent saying to keep these birds in captivity just have a better start at finding their way into the real world ???


u really jumped to conclusionm i bet when u read part of my answer yor blood started rushing and u just had to say something nasty.. and without even readind what i have said in my previous answer...... slow release the birds dahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
so read before answrring in such tone..bringing up my dead bird?
wow thanks......
how did he not see that my mom gonna open the door and step on him hmmmmmmmm, would u see something behind teh closed door coming at u??? no and nobody would, really what u just said was really little dumb of u..
how did he not see my mom behing the closed door,,,,,,hm i wonder how....hm really interesting

wow just wow
and really how much do u think that i dont know?????hm


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

goga82 said:


> u really jumped to conclusionm i bet when u read part of my answer yor blood started rushing and u just had to say something nasty.. and without even readind what i have said in my previous answer...... slow release the birds dahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
> so read before answrring in such tone..bringing up my dead bird?
> wow thanks......
> how did he not see that my mom gonna open the door and step on him hmmmmmmmm, would u see something behind teh closed door coming at u??? no and nobody would, really what u just said was really little dumb of u..
> ...


personally it was dumb of you to not protect your bird from something of this nature from happening so dont turn this on me and everyone else , think of saving lives here not in the proving your own points that instincts will carry a baby thru to a happy life out in the wild ... you already proved that you dint 
think for your baby so think about others with birds that they are trying to reintrodunce into the wild again .


p.s. instinct tells them that humans are a natural threat ,when they already lost that instinct they need all the help they can get out in the real world .


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> personally it was dumb of you to not protect your bird from something of this nature from happening so dont turn this on me and everyone else , think of saving lives here not in the proving your own points that instincts will carry a baby thru to a happy life out in the wild ... you already proved that you dint think for your baby so think about others with birds that they are trying to reintrodunce into the wild again .
> 
> yeah hahah what i should have done is to release him sooner othervise that wouldnt have happened.. and if she pawbla dont release hers that same thing could happed to hers as well as anyone of us..
> and really u going so low bringing up mjy dead bird???? really?? are we really talking about me now?? hahah
> ...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Lokota, I think I'd give up right about now. It's just soooo pointless.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

goga82 said:


> LokotaLoft said:
> 
> 
> > personally it was dumb of you to not protect your bird from something of this nature from happening so dont turn this on me and everyone else , think of saving lives here not in the proving your own points that instincts will carry a baby thru to a happy life out in the wild ... you already proved that you dint think for your baby so think about others with birds that they are trying to reintrodunce into the wild again .
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Lokota, I think I'd give up right about now. It's just soooo pointless.


thats so true jay3 I guess it doesnt really help when nobody is listening


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Pabwla..............Above all you must trust your own instincts. Do what your gut tells you is best for these birds.

If you choose to keep them..........love them, protect them and care for them.......they do make wonderful pets.

If you choose to release them..........PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO YOU BY JAYE IN POST #33.............by doing so you will give the birds the best chance for survival.

To the rest of you.........Pawbla came to us looking for sound advice and assistance in making a critical decision.........not to hear your squabbling........give it a break.

Pawbla............You have done a great job saving and caring for these birds up to this point........I trust that you will do what you feel is best for them.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> goga82 said:
> 
> 
> > goga instinct tells one not to let a baby bird run around on the floor to be stepped on in the first place so dont even go there with me , you didnt think period ..most people keep them in a safe place like a cage .. it was all in your hands not that baby birds and I will leave it at that ,hand feeding has nothing to do with instincts but they do learn fast in order to stay alive be it a syringe or any other handfeeding method but again thats not even the point here .. we are trying to get these birds out into the wild again in the safest way possible with an ability to survive at the same time and that is all .. no one is trying to tell her to keep them in captivity here , just release them when they are ready for it nothing more.
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

goga82 said:


> LokotaLoft said:
> 
> 
> > yeah i see u have over 150 pigeons, i wonder what kidn of life they have, and the condition they living in, i can just imagine..
> ...


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

goga82 said:


> yeah i see u have over 150 pigeons, i wonder what kidn of life they have, and the condition they living in, i can just imagine..
> and i dont think bird belongs in the cage, they just dont!
> how often do u let your 150 birds fly?? hahah just be honest. i bet they live in the same conditions as those chickens i seen at my externship farms, never seen the sun .. never been able to spread their wings.
> such a shame


*HOW COME YOU HAVE TURNED SO EVIL, PLEASE LEAVE WE DONT NEED YOUR BULL**** HERE. ALL YOUR STARTING TO DO IS CAUSE TROUBLE MAYBE YOU SHOULD HEAD OUT SOON.*


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> goga82 said:
> 
> 
> > "hand feeding has nothing to do with instincts but they do learn fast in order to stay alive be it a syringe or any other handfeeding method but again thats not even the point here ."
> ...


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Pigeon lower said:


> goga82 said:
> 
> 
> > *HOW COME YOU HAVE TURNED SO EVIL, PLEASE LEAVE WE DONT NEED YOUR BULL**** HERE. ALL YOUR STARTING TO DO IS CAUSE TROUBLE MAYBE YOU SHOULD HEAD OUT SOON.*
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

goga82 said:


> LokotaLoft said:
> 
> 
> > goga82 said:
> ...


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

*I Am Talking About Him Blabbering Back And Forth With You's. I Think The Bird Should Be Kept Alive Too.*


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Pigeon lower said:


> goga82 said:
> 
> 
> > *HOW COME YOU HAVE TURNED SO EVIL, PLEASE LEAVE WE DONT NEED YOUR BULL**** HERE. ALL YOUR STARTING TO DO IS CAUSE TROUBLE MAYBE YOU SHOULD HEAD OUT SOON.*
> ...


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> goga82 said:
> 
> 
> > LokotaLoft said:
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

Pigeon lower said:


> *I Am Talking About Him Blabbering Back And Forth With You's. I Think The Bird Should Be Kept Alive Too.*


my point was only that these babys should not just be let out on instincts alone cuz they will surely die if done so .


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2009)

goga82 said:


> LokotaLoft said:
> 
> 
> > goga82 said:
> ...


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

*whatever Ill Stay Out Of It No Point In Bothering... Im Suprised I Havnt Left This Site Myself Yet.*


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Pigeon lower said:


> *whatever Ill Stay Out Of It No Point In Bothering... Im Suprised I Havnt Left This Site Myself Yet.*


dont leave this site it aint that bad...
we still need good advice giving people 
its just one of thosew days 
hang in there


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> goga82 said:
> 
> 
> > LokotaLoft said:
> ...


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Please... act maturely. You can discuss this issue, but just do it politely and maturely 



goga82 said:


> i know a lot of rescue organizations that release after bird is ready.. does that mean that they should never be released.......please c' mon


Nobody is saying they shouldn't be released. Everybody agreed that they should.



goga82 said:


> now im sure if somebody dropped u off in god knows where, desert, africa, jungle, u wouldnt know how to find the way home, water.. or whatever in order to survive an dmake it home.. u wouldnt


You said you would :B



goga82 said:


> bringing up my dead bird?
> wow thanks......
> how did he not see that my mom gonna open the door and step on him hmmmmmmmm, would u see something behind teh closed door coming at u???


Actually, what LokotaLoft is saying is true. Your bird did die because he should have stepped out of the way of a door opening. I, human, weighing my 57 kilograms would have stepped out of a door (or "moving wood wall") because I know it hurts.



goga82 said:


> and if she pawbla dont release hers that same thing could happed to hers as well as anyone of us..


Actually, my bedroom's door is locked while they are there. I have always been afraid of that with small puppies/kittens and birds being stepped on or hit by doors. But accidents happen. And in the wild, somebody could smash them with their cars, because, again, accidents happen.



goga82 said:


> how do they know how to eat out of surringe?? or drink water out of the plate ?? and eat the pet store formulas??? hmmm??


I've never experienced them doing these things without me teaching them. Neither them nor other birds.



LokotaLoft said:


> no one is trying to tell her to keep them in captivity here , just release them when they are ready for it nothing more.


True, and you agreed to that, goga82 :B. You told me to do a soft release.



goga82 said:


> and yeah u right i do turn evil specially if somebody mentions my dead pigeon, how nice is that ?????huh??


Because it's an example that you have experienced. It's right now one of the best ones, and you're fully capable of understand it. Please cool and think a bit, and I'm sure you will.



goga82 said:


> yeah i see u have over 150 pigeons, i wonder what kidn of life they have, and the condition they living in, i can just imagine..





goga82 said:


> how often do u let your 150 birds fly?? hahah just be honest. i bet they live in the same conditions as those chickens i seen at my externship farms, never seen the sun .. never been able to spread their wings.
> such a shame


That is becoming aggressive. We are all pigeon lovers, not pigeon farmers. LokotaLoft may have three million people but probably she cares about them. It's the same as the ferals who keep coming back. I have two, and I care about them. Numbers don't mean anything.



goga82 said:


> and i dont think bird belongs in the cage, they just dont!


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f35/i-need-a-pigeon-40007.html
Just that. Remember, rooms or houses are just bigger cages.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

goga82 said:


> im better than u


That's why you can't discuss issues maturely, it seems. Nobody is better than anyone here. We are just different.
Are you seriously 27?


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Pawbla..........Please read my post #50.............You sound so upset by all of this.....that is not what this forum is about......Please use your own best judgement.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

lwerden said:


> Pabwla..............Above all you must trust your own instincts. Do what your gut tells you is best for these birds.
> 
> If you choose to keep them..........love them, protect them and care for them.......they do make wonderful pets.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Louise.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

lwerden said:


> Pawbla..........Please read my post #50.............You sound so upset by all of this.....that is not what this forum is about......Please use your own best judgement.


I may have forgotten to answer you, but I consider your post one of the useful inputs here :3. Thanks for it!
I'm going to release them. When do hawks stop hunting? Just at night? I want to set the time for the release too.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Again Pawbla...if you do a soft release form your yard...you will have a cage that you will keep the birds in for a week or so for them to become accustomed to the surroundings. After that time, open up the door to the cage and let them go when they decide they want to. They will know what time is best and you won't need to force the issue. So much safer for them and a form of soft release.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

But I don't want to open the cage for example in the morning... just in case they want to go out when the hawks are hunting. To be safer, you know.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Enough .. Let's Get Back On Track!*

OK, folks .. this thread is getting way out of line. Let's work on trying to help Pawbla with her birds so we all have a happy ending here.

Also, for those of you using the quote feature .. please learn how to use it correctly so we actually know whose quote it was that showed up without having to backtrack for many posts.

No more sniping or pot shots, please!

Terry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla, there are always hawks around, and believe me they are always hunting. If they haven't found food in the morning, they will still be hunting in the afternoon. Pigeons get taken by them morning or afternoon. Doesn't matter.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Pawbla, there are always hawks around, and believe me they are always hunting. If they haven't found food in the morning, they will still be hunting in the afternoon. Pigeons get taken by them morning or afternoon. Doesn't matter.



This is true. It's the risk they take...you take... once they have been released.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

pawbla, when i release any bird, except nightime birds like owls, i release in the morning.
i do this for a few reasons, i do it on a day when i can spend a time outside to see what animals are around.
i make sure the birds, and squirrels are around, because when they are not, there may be a reason, like a predator around like a hawk, if i see one i won't release, and of course i chase it away
when i open the aviary to release i stay outside until they are out and gone, i check often to see if they come back, and leave food out so they always have food to come home to if needed, and will even call them and show them where the food is
some birds like crows and pigeons i wait to let the babies out until the wild ones are in my yard, and i have actually trapped piji's that i had previously released while i was raising young ones and kept them with them so they could be released all together and have the benefit of the guidance of the older previously released birds.
i have a spring release baby upstairs right now that i have captured twice because i got a late baby, so both are getting wintered over together and have full run of the rehab room, and the late baby will stick with the older one once released, she spent most of the day away from my house down on the blvd with the big flock down there, but she came back at least once a day to eat.
she has allready taught the sweet little beggy baby that she shouldn't like me, they both avoid me like the plague when i go in to feed, clean, water and check weights, which will be a good thing once released.
chances are i will get more babies before i intend to release those guys.
birds do have instincts that are very strong, but by us raising them we have handicapped them to an extent because they didn't have the benefit of being raised by their parents, instincts are ingrained, look at how some species migrate, i have had them come back year after year, either they instinctively knew or they found other of their kind and were shown, i really don't know
anything we can do to help them transition to being a free bird is the right thing to do, but once we release all we can do is cross our fingers, make sure they have access to food and hope they do okay, they have to learn by experience some will make it, some won't, for the ones who make it they are living the life they were meant to live


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Morning is a good time, then. I'll have to find a flock first, though.

Thanks a lot for every answer, I love to read about your experiences so I know what to expect.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I've sent an email to a zoo that rehabs animals. Sadly it's like 400km away, but I can get there. Dunno if they'd be interested in this, though... These are common feral pijjies.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Zoo said no, they redirected me to Fauna. I frankly do not trust Fauna since pigeons "are a plague", and the Buenos Aires Fauna is not exactly what you'd call "the best".

I frankly don't know what to do. No flock, no release? I need a flock.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sorry things aren't going well. Easy to find flocks around here. How are they doing?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

They are doing really well. They like to be together and eat together (unluckily they're still in the temporary cages, probably this week we'll build the new one), and on warm days I take them (caged) outside and let them sunbathe and be around my resident eared dove pair (the only birds that stayed after I changed the food from cardinal mix to pigeon mix). They've both started to bath, and they still don't care about grit. I got safflower seeds, but ferals aren't around to even see them, apparently. My birds love it, though.
The oldest one is getting really aggressive, though. Pecks my fingers really hard, and wing-slaps me. Dunno if that is good or bad.

Here flocks are really hard to find. Pigeons hang out in groups of two or four pigeons, I saw them flocking just in that downtown flock.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> They are doing really well. They like to be together and eat together (unluckily they're still in the temporary cages, probably this week we'll build the new one), and on warm days I take them (caged) outside and let them sunbathe and be around my resident eared dove pair (the only birds that stayed after I changed the food from cardinal mix to pigeon mix). They've both started to bath, and they still don't care about grit. I got safflower seeds, but ferals aren't around to even see them, apparently. My birds love it, though.
> The oldest one is getting really aggressive, though. Pecks my fingers really hard, and wing-slaps me. Dunno if that is good or bad.
> 
> Here flocks are really hard to find. Pigeons hang out in groups of two or four pigeons, I saw them flocking just in that downtown flock.


I've never seen pigeons hanging out in small numbers like that. That's because their is safety in numbers. They need all the eyes of all the flock members to watch for hawks and such. As far as the wing slapping, that's normal. Just growing up and becoming more independent, and wants to let you know that. Kinda like when a kid becomes to old to be hugged in front of the other kids. LOL. It means he's growing and progressing normally. Don't take it personally. I have a little hen that I raised from about 2 days old, she lands on me whenever I enter the loft. But let me put a hand into her nest box and it is a different story.


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

cute pic!!!!!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I find it quite strange now that I've started reading on this subject. Maybe it is because we didn't have birds of prey until... around mid 2008. Probably they'll start flocking when they realize it's safer.

And lol! Well, it's great then that she's maturing normally, then! And that picture is really cute, besides the finger biting hehe. It must hurt.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It didn't really hurt much til he decided to join her. And the sad thing is that he's my favorite bird. LOL.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Om nom nom, fingers for dinner!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Anyway, as you can see, your bird is growing normally into an adolescent. Watch out when they start ganging up on you! LOL.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

In no time the other one will grow up too and I'll have to watch out for that O.O haha!


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