# Very sick little pigeon! help!



## milla_magia (Dec 1, 2006)

First of all, this is my first post here and also I have apologize for my language, english is not my native language. but I'll try to explain my problem.

I've had a young pigeon for 5 days now, it was found lying in the street. We took it to a vet, and the vet said it was healthy but weak because of malnutrition and dehydration. We took the bird home and it didn't move very much. Based on the day-by-day pictures of pigeon babies I've seen on the web. I'd say this one's approximately 3 weeks or maybe 25 days old. There are some orange feathers on the bird's head and of course, it can't fly yet.

For the first 2 days we fed the bird, and after that it got a little better. What got my attention was that it didn't walk. It seemed the bird's other leg was somehow weaker than the other. The bird sometimes stood on both feet, but it's weight was mainly on the normal leg. Sometimes it fell down, and sometimes it walked backwards, which seems odd. I asumed then it was because it was only a baby bird. 

So after 2 days the bird seemed to get better, it started to pick food on it's own, it drank water by itself, it became interested of the outside world, it started to groom it's feathers, etc. The bird ate quite a lot, and because we don't know absolutely anything about pigeons and because we thought that it was a good thing that it was eating by itself, we let it eat. 

And now it has gotten a lot worse. First I thought she/he just ate too much of the wild bird seed mix I gave. There was loads of poop everywhere, so obviously it was the case. BUT now the bird won't eat anymore, and it seems very quiet, it doesn't move around, it doesn't groom it's feathers, it just lays and maybe moves a little every now and then. It doesn't really get on it's feet either, it just lays. But I know it CAN eat by itself, and drink also. It just doesn't seem to want to do it. It looks depressed. Or ill. This has gone on since last night. ALSO it has started to squeak quietly whenever I go near it, or when I put new food in front it. Earlier it was quiet all the time. It's obviously frightened of me. But why now?

And what's even more alarming, it sometimes gets these weird attacks when it's lying down, it spreads it's wings and streches it's legs and it's beak is open and it actually looks horrible, like it's choking or dying or something  

I feel horrible because I don't know what's the problem, is it just the fact that he/she has been in such a poor condition earlier, or is it because it's a young bird or is it 'cos it has some disease? I live in Finland, we don't have the same medicines here and I don't know anything about the medicines he/she might need. I'm scared that the bird suffers and I don't want to prolong it's suffering. I'm a real animal lover, and I feel helpless because I don't know what's wrong with this bird. The vet said that if it doesn't gain strength or if it's condition goes worse, it should be put down...I asume because it would animal abuse to prolong the suffering of the bird. But I would love to see this wonderful little bird get better. His/hers name is Sakari


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## milla_magia (Dec 1, 2006)

*I must add...*

I have to add myself, that after reading further this messageboard, I can't help but think that my bird has PMV  The walking backwards (sometimes in sort of circles), staggering, and at first it had some trouble picking food (it kept missing the seed, even though it got better at later and also because we put the seeds in bowl where it was easier for the bird to actually hit a seed).


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hellow Milla, and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. Bless you for taking in this poor young pigeon! I'm sorry the vet wasn't able to help you more. It's hard to say without actually seeing the bird, but he could have a number of things wrong with him. The fact that he ate well initially and isn't eating now is disturbing. 

I always look for the most common things first. Trichomoniasis ("Canker") is a common parasitic disease that afflicts pigeons, especially young ones, and could be the problem or part of it. Gently open the bird's beak if you can and see if there are any cheesy-looking white or yellow growths inside. If so, the youngster has Trich. He could also have problems with Coccidiosis, another parasitic disease. 

However, the fits you describe sound like symptoms of avian paramyxovirus or salmonellosis, but again, it's hard to tell without seeing the bird. 

There are pigeon medications available on-line but I don't know if you can get them in time. Are there any pigeon keepers there in Finland? It sounds like your best bet would be to find someone knowledgeable about pigeons who can look the bird over. 

At a minimum I think this pigeon should be treated for Trichomoniasis and with antibiotics for any infection it may have. If there are aquarium or pet stores in your area you should be able to get some Metronidazole, sold for use on aquarium fish. That would treat the Trichomoniasis. But he should also be treated with a broad-spectrum antibiotic. If he has salmonellosis he needs Baytril (Enrofloxacin). It's in the same drug "family" as Cipro, if that helps. Perhaps you could ask your vet to try that on him. I think he should be familiar with the drug. 

In the meantime, please keep the bird on supplemental heat such as a heating pad set on Low or a hot water bottle, if you're not already doing so. Make sure he has plenty of water and food available to him even if he's not eating right now. Wild bird seed is fine. Best of luck and let us know how he does. 

In case you haven't already found it, here's a link for looking up symptoms:

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I just saw your second post and from what you say, he may indeed have PMV. If so, it is possible for him to recover with supportive care. One of our U.K. members, Cynthia, has had experience and success in rehabbing PMV pigeons. Hopefully she'll be along soon to give you more detailed advice. 

Offer him seed in a deep dish he can stick his beak into so it's not so hard for him to pick up seeds. You may need to help him drink, too. Is he very thirsty? Because thirst is also one of the symptoms of PMV. The symptoms of Salmonellosis/paratyphoid can be similar, though.


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## milla_magia (Dec 1, 2006)

*about PVM*

I just read this page about Paramyxovirus infection:

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

and it says that most pigeons die. But I read from elsewhere (this board?) that the mortality rate is 5 to 10%.

Thanks Birdmum4ever for your advice. Unfortunately the Metronidazole is prescription medicine only in Finland  He's not very thirsty now. I offered him water with a spoon

I thought about taking the bird to a finnish zoo, which also takes care of hurt wild animals but I have a sense they will put the bird down immediately because pigeons are not highly appreciated and also because they might not want to use resources on taking care of such a common animal for several weeks (if it has PVM). After all, they kill tigers there, they'll probably kill a pigeon too


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I have no idea that this will help you at all, but after searching for "pigeons" in Finland, this web site is the ONLY one I came up with. It's in your language, so it will make much more sense to you than it does me. LOL (Your english is EXCELLENT by the way compared to what I understood on the web site which was NOTHING) So, maybe check it out and see if there is anything or anyone there that can help you. Good luck.
http://houbenpigeons.com/linkscountry.asp?country=Finland


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

PMV does not have to be a death sentence. I suspect the reason they say that is that most fanciers aren't willing to nurse a bird through the illness. I haven't personally helped a pigeon through PMV, but I know others have and it can be done. 

Thank you, Renee for the link. I hope this will be helpful to Milla. And Milla, your English _is_ excellent--better than some native English speakers on the board!

A deep water dish would be helpful, too, but not so large the pigeon risks drowning in it.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> PMV does not have to be a death sentence. I suspect the reason they say that is that most fanciers aren't willing to nurse a bird through the illness. I haven't personally helped a pigeon through PMV, but I know others have and it can be done.
> 
> Thank you, Renee for the link. I hope this will be helpful to Milla. And Milla, your English _is_ excellent--better than some native English speakers on the board!
> 
> A deep water dish would be helpful, too, but not so large the pigeon risks drowning in it.


Yes Mila, I feel the same way as Birdmom that probably most fanciers would not want to take the time to nurse a pigeon through the illness. They need help with food and water. Many times those stabs at seeds result in just that, attempts to eat, but actually never getting enough to help them through the hard part. The same with water. If you can hand feed him just long enough that he can build up his strength, then you can aid him in getting his own food. Every little deed is so energy consuming for them. I nursed a little guy back to health that is now flying with my flock.

We have experts on the forum that have nursed many back to health. It is time consuming but, oh so worth it.

God Bless, 
Feather


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## milla_magia (Dec 1, 2006)

Thanks to both of you for the complements about my english  I'm glad to hear that I write understandable english 

As for the bird, I read that this severe form of Newcastle Disease (PVM) has a mortality rate of 90%  And I think that's exactly what my little bird has. And even if the bird makes it, it will still be a carrier of the disease. I feel helpless. I noticed that the bird doesn't get fits when I put the light down, so at least now he's sleeping calmly. 

I could try to contact some pigeon people (fanciers, is that what they're called?) in here, maybe someone might want to give me a helping hand or even take care of this bird. (Like I said, I've no experience on pigeons, actually no experience on any birds other than the ones that I feed every winter in my yard.) It just might be that not very many are willing to take this bird in fear of PVM spreading to their own birds. But asking never hurt anyone, right?

This is very difficult


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello there,

Thank you SO much for helping this youngster.

I'm so sorry to hear this pigeon is not feeling very well. It would sure help to know what this bird actually has, and I suspect a couple of things. Paratyphoid needs to be treated with Baytril, but PMV, there is no medication, just time and alot of supportive products.

Yes, pigeon fanciers, or racers may give you some help if you describe the symptoms, perhaps they can recommend where you can get some medications, depending on the disease. I doubt they will take the bird from you, as they would not risk exposing the bird anywhere near their birds, but try anyway.

Does the bird have very watery stool, or anything like that? Does the bird have any parasites?

You can help this youngster with some probiotics (like bifidum, lacto-bacilicas, etc-which is in a good organic yoghurt or kefir)which will promote good gut bacteria too, in case of some intestinal ailments, like coccidiosis. I have spoon fed some birds with kefir and seeds just to get their intestines functioning well, as this gives them added benefit of giving them some nutrition and food at the same time. This may help with watery stools. Do you have any health food store/organic/natural stores where you can get some? If you purchase a bottle of Sovereign Silver, colloidal silver, you can use that for any kind of infections, a drop down the throat. It won't hurt the bird, but may help. You can also use Reishi as an anti-infectant, and even organic Neem oil. Not actually knowing what the bird has, this would be your best bet, for now. 

A small bottle of alcohol free echinacea, 1/4 of a human serving mixed with water, for 3 days, will also bring the immune system up. You just mix the tincture with a little water, and gently dispurse down the throat with a dropper.

Once the bird is eating, I would add a garlic capsule to the regimen, for immune support and purifying the blood.

The more things that you can give, the better response, just make sure to give each product seperately.

These products cn help get the bird to feeling better until a diagnosis can be made, and sometimes it does resolve some issues.

If the bird is suffering from PMV, a good calcium supplement and avian multi would need to be added as well.


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

If the only disease the pigeon has is PMV, chances are it will survive and will be able to live a normal life either as a pet or (if there is no neurological damage) released in the wild. I have had about 10 PMV pigeons and they all survived.

It was worrying to mention the lying down/ spreading the wings and opening the beak as if it has difficulty breathing because it could be canker starting to block the air passage.

Open the beak and see if there are any nodules (abnormal cheese-like growths) down the throat or if there is a bad smell. If there is a smell then it is very likely it is canker and it needs medicine. Spartrix can be bought on the web or I could post you some - hopefully it would be quicker this way.


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Also if it is canker and it is at the stage of laboured breathing, it may be necessary for the vet to remove the obstructions using specialised equipment to save the bird. Medication may need a few days to take effect and by then the bird may have choked to death.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the care you are giving this poor bird.
BTW your english is excellent.

I had a few PMV birds. I still have one which was the worst case I had ever seen. This guy was all twisted and never woke up in two weeks. I had to tube feed him, of course. After two weeks he woke up and was able to keep his head up only for less than a minute. 
Now, 8 months later, he is almost normal, he has fits only when stressed, he is flying, eating and has a normal life. He is with my other pigeons and he is not contagious. 
Cynthia posted somewhere that they are not contagious after three months, even if they show symptoms.

You might have to feed him and especially hydrate him. 
Some extra calcium and maybe an antiinflammatory might help.
He might not make it, but there is great chance he can pull through.

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

pigifan said:


> Also if it is canker and it is at the stage of laboured breathing, it may be necessary for the vet to remove the obstructions using specialised equipment to save the bird. Medication may need a few days to take effect and by then the bird may have choked to death.


Good point, Pigifan. Milla, the reason we are concerned about canker too is that nearly all pigeons carry the organisms that cause it and when their immune system is compromised by something else, such as PMV or Paratyphoid, canker can quickly take over. It's normally treatable but can be fatal to a young bird with other health problems. I have seen a young pigeon die quickly from canker/Trichomoniasis even with treatment. 

I doubt that pigeon fanciers will want to take the bird in, but if you can find someone they might be able to share medications with you. Most breeders keep various medications on hand.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's very easy to read the symptoms of various diseases and get the idea that a bird has all of them. True Newcastle Disease is quite rare. Canker (Trichomoniasis) is one of the most common and there is a neurological presentation that gives the symptoms that you're describing although I'm not suggesting that this is the only possibility. As a practical matter, you may be able to acquire that medication mentioned above (Metronidazole) from a vet if he's willing to cooperate and it might possibly be a "last ditch effort" (one last try; last chance) so all you can do is try. If you manage to get it, there are a few dosing protocols: one is 10 to 30 milligrams twice daily and another is 20 to 50 milligrams once daily. Often, you get it in a 250 milligram tablet and the fastest thing to do is chop such a tablet into (as best you can) eight somewhat equal portions and give one to the bird immediately. If that's the problem and if you've caught it in time, it'll be a couple of days before you start seeing improvement. You can treat on the successive days with those same portions for several days in a row. Sometimes, if you know your pharmacist (chemist), you might be able to beg one and get it. Best of luck

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Milla, Welcome.
Many thanks for taking in this poor baby & caring for her.
In addition to the suggestions & advice that has been given, here are a couple links to threads that may offer some further assistance.

Basic life saving steps:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

Explanation of PMV:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12248

Please keep us posted.  

Cindy


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

All three of my pidgies have PMV and besides not being able to fly they lead happy normal lives. Like the others said, PMV is not a death sentence, it's far from it so don't get discouraged


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

I have heard not to feed it with bread because it can choke it if its not strong enough to swallow.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Milla Magia, 


What do the poops look like? What color(s) are they? what consistancy?

Are you keeping the Bird definitely' warm? Meaning, are you making sure the Bird itself, his body, is for certain, around your own Body temperature or a little more? ( Such as by useing an electric Heating Pad with a small towell over it...)

This is uite important for them if they are not for sure making enough body heat of their own.

This Pigeon youngster may have injured Legs, possibly from a fall...

They will walk or stumble 'backwards' at this age or at any age, when they are ill, not feeling well or fatigued, when they wish to poop.

Young Pigeons, and even older Pigeons, normally make some 'backward' steps in order to poop over the edge of their ledge/nest...and theywill do so also in other confines...

He may have internal and other bruisins, strains, injury from a fall...

If he is not making enough of hius own body heat, his actions and interests will appear depressed and or withdrawn...and, also, the Food in his Crop can begin to ferment causing systemic poisoning from fermentation products or also from molds or Candida infecting his system...

I would consider to have his drinking Water made to have Three Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the Gallon of Water, and for this to be offered to him tepid, or so the Drinking Water is about body temperature. This as a means of arresting any Molds or Candida or fermentation which might have begin in his digestive system, and, it is an excellent Tonic regardless.

If you are Metric, then, say, about 10 Millilitres of raw apple cider Vinegar to a Litre of Water.

These are basic, fundimental measures which for now would be important to impliment.

Otherwise, no, it is not 'obvious' that your Bird's condition is "PPMV" or "PMV" nor that his symptoms aroze from his eating too much...although they can eat too much if allowed Seed unsupervised when they are young like he is! 
...and if they do over-eat, their Crop ( the front, mid-area of his Body) would be distended and overly 'firm' untill the Seeds have passed on to his Stomach and Crop...which can take a few days sometimes.

Generally, expect about 40 to 50 poops every 24 Hours...if his digestive system is working well...


Good luck!

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## milla_magia (Dec 1, 2006)

Yesterday the poo was quite normal, although there was a lot of liquid but now he has diarrhea  His breathing is normal, no coughing. He hasn't got any fits this morning. 

His legs were not injured when the vet examined him 6 days ago. And I know this also because when he got temporarily a little better, he was standing although the other leg seemed not to work all properly, he was still able to move it a bit. He also tried to peck on his sick leg for couple of occasion, accidentally or not, but it was still an odd movement. 

He's calm now but everytime I go near him to give him water or to check on him, the symptoms arise. He starts shaking his head and trembling. And squeaking. I haven't had a chance to check in his throat yet, because it's so difficult when he's acting like that. My boyfriend comes home soon, maybe the bird is less frightened of him, so it would be easier to take care of him, to feed him and such. We'll see about that in a couple of hours. I'll also try to give him the things you're adviced, I have to go to the shops because unfortunately I haven't got any such things here. I have calcium tablets, but are tablets okay or should the calcium be in some other form? 

Of course it's not certain that it's PMV, but he has many of the symptoms: walking backwards (in circles), paralysis of the leg(s), drooping wing, not eating, fits, diarrhea, shaking of the head, problems picking up food, and so on... 

I'll try my best. All I can think is that what if he's in constant pain..is it just torture for the animal? Am I just being selfish wanting to try to save, maybe he be better off in pigeon heaven  I don't know, many thoughts going through my mind. 

But thank you all for your support, you've been wonderful, I have to say that very rarely have I met such nice people and got such a positive, and supporting feedback on any subject  Pigeons must be good for the soul.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mm, 


Hmmmmmm....


Well, might be PPMV, might not...

Do keep him definitely "warm"...

He might be ill with some sort of enteritis and other infection/illness effecting his neurology which are not viral but toxin-producing, which can goof them up in various ways.

I would consider to do the ACV-Water regardless of whatever conjectures seem to arise to account for his condition...and for now, serve it at around body temperature for his drinking. Let him drink when you offer it, he does not need to have his Water Bowl 'there' otherwise.

Also, unless he is underweight, for now, so long as he is eating, simply support his efforts and be gentle with him, move slowly and softly in interacting or being near.

Young Pigeons often do tremble and or have excitements which to the un-familiar can seem odd or indicitive of problems when these are normal.

Not being able to see your Bird in action, it is hard to guage your descriptions in these lights.

If there is any 'Yellow' or Water-color-Paint kind of yellow in his poops, please do treat for Canker.

What are you feeding him? exactly, I mean, what has he been eating?


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Milla & all, 

Milla, is there any way you could take a short video of some of the behaviours you're seeing and post it for us? If we could see the actual behaviours, we may be able to tell you if they are normal or not. I'm wondering if your admitted inexperience with pigeons or birds of any kind might be leading you to assume that some of the behaviours you're seeing are abnormal. Phil had mentioned that walking backwards can be normal for pigeons when the want to poo and he's right. Does this pigeon poo after he walks backwards in circles or does it look like he might be attempting to poo when he does this?

I'm also wondering if your vet gave you an accurate diagnosis by saying that the young pigeon was simply dehydrated and suffering from malnutrition. If the pigeon was out on it's own for awhile and without being fed by it's parents, this would certainly be realistic to assume. When a pigeon becomes dehdrated, it's organs start to shut down and won't function properly. Perhaps when he ingested all the seed like you said he did in the beginning, he ate too much, gorging himself on the seed because he was starving. When a bird is dehydrated, eating a lot before proper rehydration can lead to an impacted crop and this can be made worse if the digestive system has shut down. Since he pooped a lot afterwards, doesn't sound like this is the case though. I would recommend trying to get more apple cider water into him as Phil suggested. If he won't drink on his own then you'll have to tube small amounts in him during the next little while.

The head shaking, squeaking and "fits" that you've described, could also be nothing more than him "begging" for food. This is normal behaviour for a young pigeon and if you're right about his age. Just because he ate on his own doesn't mean he's at the point where he wouldn't still be getting fed by his pigeon parents. He might have eaten out of desperation at first and because he was starving, but isn't quite ready to do this all the time. When they are this young, they often need practice to get the seed pecking right and don't always have the coordination down pat.

The drooping wing and bad leg are other things that I can't really give an alternative opinion about. There could be definitely something wrong with those, either an actual injury or something caused from under lying illness as many of the other members have mentioned.

If you could take a video of the behaviours, this might help us rule out PMV in any case. Check his throat for yellow/white growths, all should be pink and appear clear in there, provide heat and keep him calm as possible as other have mentioned in prior posts.


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## milla_magia (Dec 1, 2006)

I'm sorry but there's no way I can get any video on the web, since I don't have a camera that records video. And also because the bird isn't doing anything that could be useful to you. It's just lying. It seems that both of it's legs are now paralysed, or so it seems, because sometimes he tries to sort of get on his feet for example when it tries to move or back away from my hand or something, but the feet are limp or they don't really move. And the feet are in a weird position. 

He has greenish little poo with lots of liquid around it. We've got him to drink some handwarm water with salt & sugar. Otherwise he just seems uninterested in everything. He hadn't had so many fits today, probably because I've kept him in a dark quiet place. He had some in the morning, so they've not gone away completely.

There seems to be nothing weird-looking in his throat, and he's breathing fine. It's only when he gets a fit, when he goes all stiff and his beak is then open. But that usually lasts only a few seconds and then he shakes his head for a while and the he calms down.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

It sounds most like PMV to me. I don't know if the disease is painful to them, but I don't think so. I suspect it's mostly frustrating and confusing. Is the pigeon able to eat at all at this point? If he isn't able to pick up any seed he will die from starvation. PMV pigeons frequently require tube feeding. It's tricky, but not really difficult once you understand how to do it. Here's a link with detailed information on tube feeding:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/pigeonresource.html


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Some while back, a member here posted a link to a video of a PMV afflicted
bird that showed it having seizures. I believe that it was to be aired on an
educational station in the area, but I'm fuzzy on some of the details and hoping
someone else here might remember enough information on that thread to find it and post a link to it. Hopefully the video link will still be functional and mill_magia could get a better idea of the 'classic' symptoms presentation.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think I remember Cynthia having something like that...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's one of the posts like that:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=151543&postcount=6

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's possible, but the one I'm thinking of was from a member....in the southern part of the country I think. Damn, I wish I could remember more right now, but I thought about it because of Brad's post and bringing a video to this thread would be the next best thing.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's one about a starling that has a pictures and a video attached as well:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15955

Although that might not be PMV...

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mm, 


Please let us know how you are making sure this Bird is through-and-through "warm"?

Or, are you, have you been, doing anything in fact, TO assure he is thoroughly and consistantly warm?

This is important...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mm, 



I am confident that in the situation you describe, it is very important for this Bird to be kept decidedly "warm".

If you have not been making sure this Bird is in fact warm, I feel you would do well if you set about finding a way to do so.

He needs to be thoroughly warm, and constantly warm, and to be just a little more warm than human body temperature...and out of any drafts.

If you have no handy or familiar method for this, please inquire of us about how we do this when we need to.


So...let us know?


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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