# Pied gene



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Two part question here:

White flights are caused by the pied gene, correct?

Can a bird carry pied and pass it to their children if they are not showing it?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

There are many different pied genes. Random piebald can cause white flights and there is also a specific gene for it. Some are dominant and some recessive so a bird could be carrying a piebald gene and not see it.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

The answer to both questions is yes, at least with respect to white flights. I have a young bird in the nest right now that has white flights. Neither of his parents has white flights or display any type of pied markings. The sire of his mother does have white flights and facial/neck pied markings. In this case, the white flights appear to have skipped a generation and showed up in a grand child.

Jim


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

loonecho said:


> The answer to both questions is yes, at least with respect to white flights. I have a young bird in the nest right now that has white flights. Neither of his parents has white flights or display any type of pied markings. The sire of his mother does have white flights and facial/neck pied markings. In this case, the white flights appear to have skipped a generation and showed up in a grand child.
> 
> Jim


That's exactly why I was asking. Same thing in my loft. I figured that was the case, but wanted to put my mind at ease that there wasn't any hanky-panky.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

That is interesting. I have a pair that are in a breeding cage, the hen is white flight the cock is not. He could be carrying it though as I have produced about 50% white flight off them. I guess it could me one of two things in my case, Either the gene is dominant and the hen is giving it to 50% of the offspring or its recessive and the cock carries one gene hidden ans has given that to 50% allowing it to show through. I am interested to know but don't have time to do the tests. I may pair him to a hen off this pair that does not show white flight, If 1/4 are white flight then I guess I know its recessive. 

I think you can assume no hanky panky has taken place but can't be sure based on the white flights.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

loonecho said:


> The answer to both questions is yes, at least with respect to white flights. I have a young bird in the nest right now that has white flights. Neither of his parents has white flights or display any type of pied markings. The sire of his mother does have white flights and facial/neck pied markings. In this case, the white flights appear to have skipped a generation and showed up in a grand child.
> 
> Jim


Skipping a generation is exactly how recessive genes work! ;-) I have many similar observations on pied and white-flighted pigeons (in my homer stock). There are at least three different pied / whiteflight genes in my loft, and at least two of them interact to cause different expression when both are present in the same bird.

I also have a doubt about the penetrance and expressivity of at least one of the recessive pied genes. Some of the homozygous birds have a few white flights and a lot of white around the head, neck and body (splash), while others seem to only have a single white flight, or even just a couple of white spots on the head, some even look perfectly normal except for white pants and a white dot around the vent. I am still trying to figure out a way to test whether these differences are due to a second gene or due to some other factor that affects the penetrance and expressivity of the gene.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> Skipping a generation is exactly how recessive genes work! ;-)
> 
> If it is indeed a recessive gene, apparently it does not take two copies of the gene to be expressed. I say this, because I can go back two generations on the fathers side of this young white-flight I have in the nest, and there are no white-flight or other pied markings expressed in any of those birds. Nor have they ever produced any pied offspring.
> 
> ...


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I agree. My cockbird shows no white flights and you would have to go back two or three generations to find any in his family. The hen's mother is splash as is her paternal grandmother and maternal grandmother.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

All recessive genes take two copies to show except for sex linked recessive in hens. What you have described is usual for a recessive gene, They can go along hidden for many generations and this is the reason you can go back generations without any sign of the gene

Also you have touched on the fact pied genes may be sex linked, I do not think this is the case - I have not observed any sex linkage in my pied or white flighted birds.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> All recessive genes take two copies to show except for sex linked recessive in hens. What you have described is usual for a recessive gene, They can go along hidden for many generations and this is the reason you can go back generations without any sign of the gene
> 
> Also you have touched on the fact pied genes may be sex linked, I do not think this is the case - I have not observed any sex linkage in my pied or white flighted birds.


Exactly right!

Some examples of recessive genes that can go many generations without being expressed, and are common in some homer families: recessive opal, chest/neck frill, feathered feet (slippers). In closely inbred families, many homer breeders will say that feathered feet or a chest frill is a sign that too much inbreeding has been going on, and that a new out-cross is necessary. Such statements are not necessarily true, since if you are very lucky, you can find two unrelated birds that both have carried these genes for many generations (10, 20 maybe even a hundred or more), but never had the opportunity to breed any homozygous offspring.

I also agree with the statement that sex-linkage is a possibility with recessives, but I have to warn that such cases, females would show a much greater incidence of the gene than males (assuming Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium of course). If I understand the previous posts correctly, this is not the case here, since more males than females are affected. Also a sex-linked recessive white flight pied gene, would mean that a white flighted cock would always have all white flighted daughters, which also isn't the case here. Hens cannot 'carry' sex-linked recessives, since they are hemizygous, they only have one Z chromosome, and whatever is on that chromosome WILL express.

As I stated before, I suspect I have some birds that carry a recessive pied gene which sometimes does not visibly express very much if at all, even when the bird is homozygous for the recessive gene. This means that either a second gene is involved to enable the pied expression, or at least enhance it, or we have a case of incomplete penetrance / expression. This thread might involve a similar case, and a great number of offspring need to be produced to prove / disprove any theory.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

pied is not a mutation right? baldhead pied is the mutation and it is dominant. so most random pied marking bird are recessive white only.

i paired my cock black spread it have random pied marking (bull eyed) with my black spread and i dont produce a pied i only produce some blue bar, blue check and black spread so i think the cock is only a recessive white spread.

my second pairing normal blue bar cock and blue check hen with 3 white flight in both wing have a small white splash in her head and i produce some blue bar WF and blue check WF they also have small splash of white in there head. so i think the hen is a baldhead coz she is dominant.


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## hotdiggity (Feb 9, 2012)

hi,i am new to this sport,but i have kept common pigeons for many years,,and i have a long background in animal behaviour,and ornithology,,,i was wondering,,do any pigeon fanciers recognise white splases as a curse? my feeling is that the lack of pigment is a fault,in any animal,i wont buy a horse with white hooves,a white dog or cat is likely to have health problems,,i personally have seen ravens targeting white pigeons,and tag teaming them till they drop,,
do any racing fanciers steer away from white?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I think health cases are only related to albinoism and not piebaldism (white splashes).


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

hotdiggity said:


> hi,i am new to this sport,but i have kept common pigeons for many years,,and i have a long background in animal behaviour,and ornithology,,,i was wondering,,do any pigeon fanciers recognise white splases as a curse? my feeling is that the lack of pigment is a fault,in any animal,i wont buy a horse with white hooves,a white dog or cat is likely to have health problems,,i personally have seen ravens targeting white pigeons,and tag teaming them till they drop,,
> do any racing fanciers steer away from white?


Some racing fanciers do indeed stay away from birds with white flights, but not because of a suspected curse or health flaw. Many believe that the lack of pigmentation causes the white feathers to wear out (fray) sooner than the dark, pigmented feathers. I've witnessed that in my own birds - by the end of the season their primaries get to looking pretty worn out and I'm sure that doesn't help much when it comes to performance. And yes, many of us have witnessed white birds being targeting by predators.

Having said that, there are many, many documented cases of white feathered birds winning big races. At that point, the white flights become more of a personal preference of the flyer. Some just don't want to take a chance. Some don't care and ignore the white flights, and other think they are beautiful and want to prove everyone else wrong.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

APF_LOFT said:


> pied is not a mutation right? baldhead pied is the mutation and it is dominant. so most random pied marking bird are recessive white only.
> 
> i paired my cock black spread it have random pied marking (bull eyed) with my black spread and i dont produce a pied i only produce some blue bar, blue check and black spread so i think the cock is only a recessive white spread.
> 
> my second pairing normal blue bar cock and blue check hen with 3 white flight in both wing have a small white splash in her head and i produce some blue bar WF and blue check WF they also have small splash of white in there head. so i think the hen is a baldhead coz she is dominant.


Any colour of gene is a mutation from wild type, Unless ofcourse it is wildtype

With regards to your second and third paragraph, Read rudolphs last post again, It covers off a couple of possibilities as to why pied may now show through even when it may be in the genotype. Also you cannot assume that because it has "random pied markings" that it is a recessive pied gene, There are a lot of pied genes and it appears to me I have both in my loft, However with what Rudolph has said I am going to watch closer as I may have just one type that penetrates differently depending on other factors.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

i looked up in genetic websites and i dont find the genetic symbol for pied. so pied is not a muntant gene it is only a random marking. i only saw Bh - baldhead pied.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Wt - White Tailed
z - Gazzi

Heres a few more genetic symbols that the pied gene is used to create, Genetic symbols were invented to help with records of breeding experiments.

Your question was pied is not a mutation right? I will be suprised if anyone else disagrees that any deviation from wild type is not a mutation. The word mutation itself means

"Dictionary.com 

1. 
Biology . 
a. 
a sudden *departure from the parent type *in one or more heritable characteristics,* caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.* "

Pigeons wild type is blue bar, Therefore any change in genetics from that is a mutation.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

i think pied is not a single mutation that why it dont have a symbol. it is a combination of two or more mutation.

and gazzi is a not random marking so it have a symbol, maybe only one gene is involve


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

This webpage is of interest:

http://dinamergeani.com/about_pied_pigeons.html


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

thanks for the link henk69

now i know most of my pied bird is only a recessive white that dont complete its masking


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

APF_LOFT said:


> thanks for the link henk69
> 
> now i know most of my pied bird is only a recessive white that dont complete its masking


Your pied birds cannot JUST be recessive whites. Since homozygous recessive white is all white, and heterpzygous recessive white is ALL coloured (when all other genes are wild type that is In other words, there must be at least one other gene involved. Read Dina's article again. He never states that pied birds are just recessive white.  But he does does say that certain areas of the body can be turned white by genes not at the z (recessive white) locus, and that the z locus has many alleles. (This fact has been proved - at least paritially by studies on the gazzi marked pattern). 

To end up with pied birds, there is a possibility that carrying recessive white (or one of it's alleles) may increase the amount of white, but there is no hard evidence of such a fact.

This is exactly why I am studying my pieds so closely. There are any number of explanations for the difference in phenotype, but no scientific evidence to support one theory above the other (at least not any that I could find on the internet). Dina is the only person I know of who has done any study on 'random' pied birds, and I am sure that he does not assume that he knows everything (actually I know so, since he states exactly that at the end o the web-page).

Another thing to remember is that even gazzi pied is 'random'. In the sense that outcrossed birds can show a lot of variability in the markings. It has taken a lot of selection to get the beautifully symetrically marked gazzi of Modena fame.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

APF_LOFT said:


> i think pied is not a single mutation that why it dont have a symbol. it is a combination of two or more mutation.
> 
> and gazzi is a not random marking so it have a symbol, maybe only one gene is involve


Pied is the mutation, Like I said any deviation from wild type is a mutation. 

If you fail to understand that I do not think there is much point me trying to explain anything else to you.

And I second everything Rudolph has said. 

I think reading the article again would be a good idea.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Pied is the mutation, Like I said any deviation from wild type is a mutation.
> 
> If you fail to understand that I do not think there is much point me trying to explain anything else to you.
> 
> ...


I think what APF_LOFT was trying to say is that pied is not a SINGLE mutation, but that there are many different mutations that cause pied, or that more than one notation is necessary to create pied birds. Personally I think it is both, but that is definitely the reason that there isn't yet a symbol for pied. [At least, that is how I read it, being an eternal optimist ]


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I think what APF_LOFT was trying to say is that pied is not a SINGLE mutation, but that there are many different mutations that cause pied, or that more than one notation is necessary to create pied birds. Personally I think it is both, but that is definitely the reason that there isn't yet a symbol for pied. [At least, that is how I read it, being an eternal optimist ]



Yeah you could be right, The way I see it, He asked if pied is a mutation, I answered yes and he is trying to argue that.

Just because someting does not have a symbol doesn't mean its not a mutation. That's all I am trying to get across.

I agree that it is both, I guess for example, there could be a single gene that causes what we call "splash" but some of the other pied expressions are needed in combination with others to express.

Maybe wording has caused some confusion but one thing I stand by is that pied is a mutation or a combination of mutations and that cannot be disputed


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Maybe wording has caused some confusion but one thing I stand by is that pied is a mutation or a combination of mutations and that cannot be disputed


In the proper language of genetics, that statment definitely cannot be disputed  But sadly , wording does sometimes get in the way.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> I think what APF_LOFT was trying to say is that pied is not a SINGLE mutation, but that there are many different mutations that cause pied, or that more than one notation is necessary to create pied birds. Personally I think it is both, but that is definitely the reason that there isn't yet a symbol for pied. [At least, that is how I read it, being an eternal optimist ]


yes this is am trying to say "that pied is not single mutation".


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

APF_LOFT said:


> yes this is am trying to say "that pied is not single mutation".


Yeah sorry, I did not understand what you meant.

As Rudolph has pointed out, there probably is a single pied mutation but not enough is known about it to be able to assign it a symbol


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

What I like about the pied showing up in my babies is that it's a visual cue that they indeed are getting some genes from one or both of their great-grandmothers. It's fun to be able to just look at the babies and say "yep, those white flights are from Kenny's Girl or Dikke Witpen". haha. Then I can only dream that they've picked up some of the other good genes that made those hens great.


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