# I need baby pigeon help!



## Bird mom (Aug 10, 2016)

My 5 week old baby pigeon has a bump on her nose. I can't figure out if she was born with it or if it's pigeon pox. Please take a look at the picture and let me know what you think and how I can treat this. I have used an antibiotic ointment and also meds by mouth twice a day. I love this bird and don't want to lose her. Thank you so much for reading and I hope people will respond.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That bird isn't 5 weeks old. Where did you get the baby?
How long has the lump been there, and are there any more?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Which meds did you give him? And dose? 
How are you feeding him? He should be with parents at this early age. Where did you get him as Jay asked?


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## Bird mom (Aug 10, 2016)

I have raised her from an egg. Shes almost 5 weeks. I raise white homing pigeons for releases at weddings, funerals and other occasions. I took her from the nest July 7th because the mom wasn't taking care of her and she would have starved to death. I feed her about every 3 to 4 hours a blend of all nutrition puppy food mixed with ground up seeds and a spoonful of baby food. She eats very well and is mobile. She's on an antibiotic, probiotic, and sulcrafate for her tummy because she wasn't digesting properly. She doing great now with the food and meds but the bump just looks horrible. There's no puss or drainage or blood. It's just huge. She is a happy baby. I haven't seen anymore birds with this which leads me to think its something she was born with. Could it be drained? I take very good care of her as her devoted mother. I just want the bump to reduce at least some if its a birthmark. It's starting to scab over, but again there's no puss or drainage. The vet said the antibiotic would help. Thank y'all for your support!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

If she is so small after 5 weeks and not growing up, I am sorry to say she isn't getting enough food. She is just getting enough to survive. I know you may not agree but many people being afraid of overfeeding don't feed enough. After she is fed, her crop should be full.
I can post some thread link where it happened and the babies weren't growing up, then they caught up when properly fed but I think five weeks is too much, she should be flying by now. They wean and start eating on their own at that age and take part in flying sessions. Yours one looks like just a week old. I don't know if she has such disease which is retarding her growth but very less likely that case. 
I can't tell how the lump is going to be disappeared because first of all her immune system will be very weak. Food gives them strength and build immunity, what if she isn't getting enough. 
I am so sorry for her.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Here is one old thread link I searched for you which I remember was raised from an egg, probably it could give you some idea how feeding helped him growing up :

www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/maximus-6-day-old-baby-pigeon-77642.html#/enter


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Doesn't make sense that the vet would give her antibiotics if he doesn't know what it is. The antibiotics probably aren't helping it at all, but they sure are messing with her system. What she needs to help with digestion and everything else is probiotics to give her some good gut bacteria, which keeps her system stronger and helps to keep away sickness. By giving antibiotics, you are killing off any good gut bacteria. If she hasn't been given probiotics, then she probably doesn't have any to begin with. A baby 5 weeks old should look pretty much full grown. She is not getting the nutrients she needs. No reason for that as there are baby bird formulas in pet shops, which have all they need in them, and giving yogurt with the live bacteria would even give the good gut bacteria. Or a human probiotic from a health food store. I'm really not trying to sound negative, but this baby is almost starving in the nutrients she needs. I have hand raised babies. A couple were just hatched, and they do grow slower than parent raised, but no way near that slow. You really need to buy a good baby bird formula, and yogurt or probiotic for that baby. I don't think it looks quite like pox, but don't think an antibiotic is helping her at all. What you need is an avian vet, and they are around. A regular vet doesn't know much about birds at all, and pigeons even less.
Where are you located?


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I have to agree with what's been said about the baby starving. These are two I hatched and hand reared at four weeks old, just feral pigeons so not particularly big but much larger than your little one. The top pic I raised with Kaytee commercial feeder and the second with home made food - junior pigeon mix, hemp, sunflower, chick corn, ready brek, probiotics, calcium plus D3 and multivitamins - soaked and blended until smooth. Perhaps buy a tub of Kaytee because you can't go wrong with that.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you raise white homers, did you not realize something was wrong with this babies growth? Baby bird formula has what they need, and is not very expensive. You can store whatever is left over in plastic zip bags in the freezer and it will last nearly forever. Not really fair to this little guy to not give him the best right now when he is growing, or should be. At this rate, he can be made weak for life. This is the time when he needs all the nutrients that are important for what should be his fastest growth period.


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## Bird mom (Aug 10, 2016)

Thank you everyone! I am going to buy some baby bird food and I am giving her a probiotic. I am feeding her through a bottle with a balloon over the top with a slit in it. She sticks her beak in it and sucks it down but I'm afraid she might inhale it. She's a little raspy when she breaths. I'm not good at sticking a syringe down her throat because I'm not confident I'm doing it right. I am so scared of losing her because of my ignorance. This is my first hand raised baby. How can I safely feed her without harming her? How do I know I'm doing it right. Please help!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

That balloon method is good, they comfortably eat through that as they eat from parents. I wouldn't suggest syringe feeding until someone experienced shows you how to do it, not at all just online.
Baby bird formula will be good, just make sure you feed enough, not over feed of course but until the crop is full. Repeat the feeding when crop empties.


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## Bird mom (Aug 10, 2016)

What do I do if she has a little bit of fluid in her lungs? Can I suction it or something?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No, you can't suction, so try not to get it in. Sometimes if they get a little, they can work it up. Many of us feed this way, and it is pretty safe. Just don't make it really watery. Make it like a pudding when you mix it. Make sure the crop empties before feeding again, and that the bird is kept warm to be able to digest it. Keeping a heating pad under the cage, or under a towel in the cage, but set up so that she can get off of it if she gets too warm. I use a large syringe, with the end cut off, and with self adhesive bandage over the end, with a slit cut in it. Works great. Make sure the formula is warm but not hot. And if you use any left over from the last feeding, heating it in a small dish which is put into a larger dish of hot water works for reheating. Don't use a microwave, as you can get hot pockets in the formula which will burn the birds crop.


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## Bird mom (Aug 10, 2016)

Wow! Thank you so much! You are wonderful! Since her development is slow, will the baby food help? How long should I feed her the formula because I cant get her to take a drink of water by herself. I tried dipping her beak in it but she just shakes her head like I'm torturing her. This is so scary! She does sleep on a heating pad with a blanket. Should I stop giving her sulcrafate for digestion? I'm also worried about the bump on her nose. So you think it will heal its self or should I carefully put a cream on it or would it help? I just want her to live. I'm going to keep her as a personal pet. Thanks again for your advice so quickly!


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

She probably won't drink until she starts eating seed on her own, my three didn't and if you're feeding a formula it's mixed with water anyway and that is sufficient for her at the moment. When she's older she'll start to reject the syringe feed herself, they take a little and gradually start pecking at seed and are less keen on you feeding them - that's the time when it gets incredibly messy, lol - they stick their beak in and start to feed but then take it out and shake it everywhere, all over you too. Listen to her breathing close to your ear and if you can hear a clicking sound with each breath she may need a short course of Baytril antibiotic from a vet. If she does then make sure you mix one drop of calcium plus vit D3 in a feed once a day because Baytril can have an effect on the bones, so I've been told. In the box or whatever you've got her in you should also have a half jar of water for humidity and hydration, just punch a few small holes in the lid so as she can't fall in, it's not for her to drink it's just to keep the atmosphere moist. A probiotic such as Avipro is good to add to the formula or you can add a small amount of natural live yogurt, unsweetened of course. For the lump I would bathe it twice a day with warm salted water, Himalayan pink salt is great or sea salt if you don't have any. Try to enjoy her and the feeds, have confidence and don't panic, she can catch up with her weight later once you are giving the appropriate food. She won't stay little for long now and you don't want to miss this time by worrying. 
Please keep us updated on how you both get on.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If Baytril does need to be used, you don't want to give calcium, as it binds to the antibiotic and makes it less effective. It used to be believed that it was only with the cyclines, but later they have realized that Baytril is the same.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> If Baytril does need to be used, you don't want to give calcium, as it binds to the antibiotic and makes it less effective. It used to be believed that it was only with the cyclines, but later they have realized that Baytril is the same.


That was the info my vet gave me when one of mine was on Baytril but given a few hours apart and I'm sure I've seen that said on here too , as Baytril can deplete calcuim supply, perhaps this only applies to growing babies though. It didn't affect my birds recovery but I will look into what you are saying Jay.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

FredaH said:


> That was the info my vet gave me when one of mine was on Baytril but given a few hours apart and I'm sure I've seen that said on here too , as Baytril can deplete calcuim supply, perhaps this only applies to growing babies though. It didn't affect my birds recovery but I will look into what you are saying Jay.


Baytril doesn't deplete the calcium supply. Calcium will bind to the Baytril and make it less effective. The same goes for the cyclines, so you remove any calcium when medicating with them. Some, if they have hard water, will use distilled water when medicating with those drugs, as hard water contains calcium.

Many things that have been found to be true, are not known by many vets who still go by the old ways and beliefs


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I have to agree with you about vets and being behind on some things Jay, I've found this very much the case with canine nutrition and raw feeding - they prefer commercial feed which contain all kinds of unnecessary additives. However one of my dogs is hypothyroid and his Thyroxine is not to be given with food because of the same reason you mention with Baytril but your very own wonderful Dr Jean Dodds does not recommend discontinuing raw bones in the diet, only that there should be a time lapse of a couple of hours between both - otherwise they would not getting enough calcium. As calcium is important for growing bones I would still add it when hand raising a chick but with sufficient interval between it and food. It can easily be dons as formula or grain doesn't take an age to digest. BUT that is what I personally would do in fear of possibly causing a rickets like problem in a youngster, of course I understand not everyone would do likewise.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, some say to try giving the calcium a few hours later, but both are still in the system. I wouldn't give the calcium, as I would want to have Baytrils full effects in the birds system, and the course of treatment isn't long enough to cause problems for the lack of calcium. I think in a sick bird, the antibiotic is more important.

They have also found that Baytril works better when given in a whole daily dose, but many have not caught up to that either. Baytril works better when it reaches its full peek, rather than keeping the drug level in the system. When it peeks, is when it kills the bacteria. A single stronger dose has a higher peek level, and so works better. By cutting the dose in half, you are weakening that effect. The makers of Baytril have stated this, and it did used to be found on their web site. Don't know if it is still there or not. But many vets still halve the dose and give it twice a day.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Very interesting Jay, with thyroxine it works better given in two twelve hourly doses because its mimicking the natural function of the thyroid gland and helps the heart keep a more natural rythum, without creating a 'see saw effect' as Jean puts it. With an AB I suppose it can be different, although human doses are also spread out to keep the drug in the system as evenly as possible. I would imagine there's a lot of debate about the dosing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes there is a lot of debate. For years it was believed to give the half dose every 12 hours, then Bayer, who makes the drug, said it was better to do the one dose once daily for pigeons.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here is an old post on the topic:


2006, 04:10 AM 

Feefo 
Matriarch/Patriarch Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United Kingdom
Location: UK
Posts: 11,338 

Here it is, it would appear to agree with what you said, Terry:

Recent findings suggest that it is the total dose of enrofloxacin and not the dosing frequency that is significant in determining drug efficacy and therapeutic success (4). It has been concluded that Baytril, like other fluoroquinolones, exhibits concentration-dependent killing activity against Gram-negative and Gram-positive pathogens relevant for small animal practice (4), (5). Maintaining sufficient drug concentrations above the MIC of the pathogen during the entire treatment interval, which is necessary for anti-infectives with time-dependent antibacterial activity (beta-lactams), is of minor importance for the fluoroquinolones (4). Goal of Baytril therapy therefore should be to maximise plasma peak concentrations (Cmax). This can only be achieved when the total daily dose is administered in one single application daily. Additionally, once daily application increases convenience of treatment and therapeutic owner and patient compliance.

Cynthia


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/baytril-enrofloxacin-and-calcium-a-good-combination-16934.html


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