# URGENT!! My baby is dieing & time is running out



## Janet (Jan 17, 2008)

My baby pigeon is only a few days old. I had 2 other babies that had this same symptom. Within days, they died. I don't know what it is. Can anyone help me on what this might be? My baby squeeks alot. Then, develops a small lump in his lower area. (below the crop and near his bottom on the side) The hard lump seems to get alittle bigger and he then eventually takes his last gasp of air and dies. The mother tried to kill him but we don't want him to die. She had other babies from the same dad and they grew up well. Why are some of my birds developing this problem when their from the same pair and others aren't? I'm unable to show a pic of it. You wouldn't be able to see it anyways. Its under the skin. Has anyone else experienced this and do you know what it might be? Please help me. I'm running out of time. The little lump started to appear today and is hard. I'm afraid he will die in the next day or so.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sorry to hear about your babies. There are a few good folks on line, so hang on and I'm sure someone will try to help. On first thought, I really don't know what the problem would be. Do you have the baby inside with you?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It sounds like canker. Do you treat your birds for canker?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Janet, Charis and I both have to go now. I agree with Charis that it sounds like Canker. There are medicines for it, but with a baby that young, I don't feel comfortable giving you any advice. If you can check back with us in the morning maybe? I'll send a couple other members a PM with a head up on this. We all will do our best to help you. If you can tell us where you are, in case you need to gets meds fast, maybe there's someone near you that can help with that.


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## Janet (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm in Lansdale Pa. I'm going to try and get ER care first thing in the morning. The parents of this bird had 2 other babies before this one. They lived and grew up good. This second batch of offspring aren't doing as well. I do have her inside with me under a heat lamp right now. She won't stop squeeling. Its killing me. I would be so thankful for any advice. Anything at all. Like I said, I'm going to try to get her to a vet in the morning. Should I take a stool sample with me? She's going very little and doesn't seem to be digesting her food. I have no kind of medication on hand. I really don't know where to buy any either. I don't treat any of my birds for anything. I really feel like a terrible caretaker. I'm pretty new at pigeons. I started with 2 and they just seem to breed continuously.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'll send a PM to some of our members out in California. It's still early there. I don't know that there's anything that can be done this late at night. If you have a good vet, then by all means, that's the way to go. I would take a poop sample just in case. If I can get in touch with Terry, she'll come on and try to help.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Janet said:


> I'm in Lansdale Pa. I'm going to try and get ER care first thing in the morning. The parents of this bird had 2 other babies before this one. They lived and grew up good. This second batch of offspring aren't doing as well. I do have her inside with me under a heat lamp right now. She won't stop squeeling. Its killing me. I would be so thankful for any advice. Anything at all. Like I said, I'm going to try to get her to a vet in the morning. Should I take a stool sample with me? She's going very little and doesn't seem to be digesting her food. I have no kind of medication on hand. I really don't know where to buy any either. I don't treat any of my birds for anything. I really feel like a terrible caretaker. I'm pretty new at pigeons. I started with 2 and they just seem to breed continuously.


I'm back for just a little bit. If she is spueeling, she must be hungry becausae that's why they squeel. Doe she have food in her crop?


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I am not a legitamate rehabber, but the baby needs flagle. I don't know where you could get it this late, but you could maybe go to Walmart to see if they sell any fish antibiotics. With a baby that tiny, gee, you would really need to dilute it and maybe give it to him in a syringe. I don't have any measurement knowledge. I have never treated one that young.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

the generic name for the medication feather mentioned is metronidazole (flagyl), it's a people medicine too. in birds, it treats canker, which is an infection that causes yellow cheesy-looking growths in the throat, crop, throughout the digestive tract. it can cause a hard lump like you mentioned. but i really have no idea for dosing with such a tiny bird either...


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

http://petcaretips.net/pigeon-canker.html

The medicine that I would use has been taken off of the market according to this article. "Metronidazole"


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Sabina...Thank you for spelling flagyl correctly. I am so bad with this, but you said everything that I wanted to.
Janet you will need to treat the parents of this baby.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I did talk to Janet a few minutes ago. She does have a vet that is experienced in wildlife illnesses and she is going to see if she can get an appointment first thing in the morning. I don't think she is too far from Foys and I sent her an email with the link to Foy's and some medications that I think she should have on hand. 
I think all her birds need to be treated for canker but the vet will know for sure. She said she will let us know what happens in the morning.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank You Charis...I have been worried. It seems when we need the most help is when the vets are closed. Say a prayer for the little sweetheart, and good night.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks everyone for being so helpful in this thread. I'm just now getting on for today at after 10 PM California time .. baby bird season is seriously upon me!

As several have posted, this does sound like canker, and I hope the vet is able to provide the necessary medication tomorrow.

Terry


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi Janet ask some of the people on here but you should in the future keep a few good drugs on hand when having pigeons. They will come in handy in the future and people are always here to help. I sure hope the baby makes it but if it means anything even if you can find someone in your area that keeps pigeons as a hobbiest will be able to point you in the right direction in a pinch when there isn't a vet around. You can buy alot of these drugs for the birds out of Global pigeon supply and other ones like it. Good Luck!!

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

naturegirl said:


> Hi Janet ask some of the people on here but you should in the future keep a few good drugs on hand when having pigeons. They will come in handy in the future and people are always here to help. I sure hope the baby makes it but if it means anything even if you can find someone in your area that keeps pigeons as a hobbiest will be able to point you in the right direction in a pinch when there isn't a vet around. You can buy alot of these drugs for the birds out of Global pigeon supply and other ones like it. Good Luck!!
> 
> Cindy


Cindy...Janet is lucky to have 2 vets experienced with wild life. I did send her a list of medications that would be beneficial to have on hand as well as a link to Foy's.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Does any one know if there is any truth to "Metronidazole" being taken off the market, and if this is so when and why did this happen? 

http://petcaretips.net/pigeon-canker.htm


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Feather said:


> Does any one know if there is any truth to "Metronidazole" being taken off the market, and if this is so when and why did this happen?
> 
> http://petcaretips.net/pigeon-canker.htm


Foy's still has it in stock according to their web site. 
So does Global.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

As I am trying to access that link, I am getting:

_"We are sorry, the page you are requesting is no longer
available, or is currently experiencing heavy traffic.
Please select any of the links on this page to continue on our site"_

Is it us?  Or are they perhaps doing some fact-checking?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Feather said:


> Does any one know if there is any truth to "Metronidazole" being taken off the market, and if this is so when and why did this happen?
> 
> http://petcaretips.net/pigeon-canker.htm


I'm not aware of this. It's still widely available from all the pigeon supply houses and even in pet stores, where it's sold as Fishzole. 

Janet, I came to your thread late, but I wanted to add I'm so sorry to hear about your chicks dying. I agree with everyone else that it sounds like canker, also known as trichomoniasis. You mentioned that the parents raised previous chicks with no problems. What often happens is that the first round or so are fine because although the parents are carrying the canker organisms, they aren't present in sufficient numbers to cause illness. But raising chicks causes some stress on the parents which can lead to trichomonads multiplying. The parent birds pass them on the the chicks in the course of feeding them and the chicks, who don't yet have immunity, get sick even though the parents appear healthy.

Nearly all pigeons carry trich and it's nearly impossible to completely eradicate it. Most of us treat our birds for canker/trich several times a year as prevention. I learned this the hard way after nearly losing a baby to trich. 

I also want to add that what you describe sounds like navel trich. Some of the organisms get spilled in the nest during feeding and can colonize the chicks' navels, causing the hard lumps you describe. 

Best of luck getting your baby to the vet. He/she will probably recommend treating the whole flock. Foys, Global and other pigeon supply houses carry a good selection of meds for flock treatment and also give advice on preventative medication programs. Since you're in PA, you should be able to get meds from Foy's very quickly.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thanks everyone...Glad to know that it is still available. Several times in a pinch I have gone after the fishzole There is a big aquarium store a half of a block away from us. No one will ever convince me that those fish supplies hasn't helped our birds.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Snipes here is the article.

Pigeon Canker
By: G.D. Butcher, D.V.M., Ph.D.


Trichomoniasis (pigeon canker) is the most common disease of
pigeons. Approximately 80 percent of pigeons are infected with
this organism. The organism is a microscopic flagellate
classified as a protozoan. Different strains, Trichomonas
gallinae or Trichomonas columbae , vary greatly in their ability
to cause disease. The disease occurs worldwide in warm climates
or during warm weather. It may occur at any time of the year in
commercial squab operations. Adult pigeons frequently carry the
trichomonads without showing signs of disease. When the adult
pigeon is stressed, however, the organisms may multiply
profusely. A mild infection can then turn into a serious
condition. Stresses include other diseases, parasitic
infestations, or overbreeding.


Affected pigeons in a loft may cease to feed, become listless and
ruffled in appearance, and lose weight before death. Pigeons
often have difficulty when closing their mouths because of
lesions in the oral cavity. They drool and make repeated
swallowing movements. Watery eyes may be apparent in birds with
lesions located in the sinuses or tissues around the eyes.
Diarrhea, increased water intake, and respiratory distress may be
noted. Birds may die suddenly due to suffocation if the lesion
blocks the opening of the trachea. The disease becomes more
severe in birds that are noticeably emaciated. The thin weakened
bird loses the inclination to fly and will "take to the wing"
reluctantly.

Pigeons that are carriers often transmit trichomonads to their
young during feeding. The disease is common in 10- to 24-day-old
squabs. As a method of feeding their young, pigeons regurgitate
the sloughed, fat laden cells lining the crop (crop milk) into
the oral cavity of the squabs. If squabs are infected with only
small numbers of the protozoan, they may develop immunity which
is maintained by constant low-level exposure. If squabs are
infected with large numbers, a severe outbreak may occur and
endanger the entire young generation.

Lesions of canker are usually most extensive in the mouth,
pharynx, or esophagus but may occur at other sites including the
crop, proventriculus, or sinuses. The infection is promoted by
minor injuries to these tissues. The spelts and awns from grains
can easily cause small lesions. The lesions first appear as
small, circumscribed, and elevated areas on the surface of the
oral mucosa. They may be surrounded by a thin red zone. The
lesions may increase in size and coalesce. The build-up of white
to yellow/tan caseous material may be sufficiently extensive to
partially or completely block the lumen of the esophagus.
Organisms may also enter the body through the unhealed navel of
squabs. In this form, necrotic tumor-like swellings occur under
the skin adjacent to the navel. Lesions can spread to various
internal organs, particularly the liver. Large, well-defined, and
yellowish areas of hepatic necrosis may be found on necropsy
examination.

Typical signs and lesions are very suggestive of the disease.
Demonstration of large numbers of organisms in the oral fluids is
usually considered enough evidence for diagnosis. The small
plaques in the mucosa should be differentiated from pox,
vitamin-A deficiency, or candidiasis.

Since the organism is transmitted from parent to squab, every
effort should be made to treat or remove infected birds from the
flock. If possible, depopulate at regular intervals and
thoroughly clean and disinfect the premises.

In addition, the following preventive measures should help:
practice a high standard of sanitation at all times; do not add
birds to an established flock since they may be carriers (if
birds are added, quarantine for 30 days); and provide a source of
clean, fresh water eliminating all sources of stagnant water.

The antiprotozoal drugs which were used successfully in treating
this disease, such as dimetridazole and metronidazole, have been
removed from the market. Experimentally, a number of drugs are
active against trichomonas infection. Use of 0.1% copper sulfate
(100 mg per 100 ml of drinking water), 0.5% hydrochloric acid or
0.02% mercuric chloride (sublimate) is worth investigating. The
optimum time to treat breeding pairs is at the initiation of egg
production.


G.D. Butcher, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor and avian veterinarian,
Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural
Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, 32611.


Copyright Information
This document is copyrighted by the University of Florida,
Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences (UF/IFAS) for the
people of the State of Florida. UF/IFAS retains all rights under
all conventions, but permits free reproduction by all agents and
offices of the Cooperative Extension Service and the people of
the State of Florida. Permission is granted to others to use
these materials in part or in full for educational purposes,
provided that full credit is given to the UF/IFAS, citing the
publication, its source, and date of publication.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Feather said:


> Does any one know if there is any truth to "Metronidazole" being taken off the market, and if this is so when and why did this happen?
> 
> http://petcaretips.net/pigeon-canker.htm


It's baytril that is no longer available, at least to us through the supply places.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Charis said:


> It's baytril that is no longer available, at least to us through the supply places.


I stand corrected...
I just read the article you posted, Feather, that does say it has been discontinued. Do you know when the article was written?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Birdmom4ever said:


> Janet, I came to your thread late, but I wanted to add I'm so sorry to hear about your chicks dying. I agree with everyone else that it sounds like canker, also known as trichomoniasis. You mentioned that the parents raised previous chicks with no problems. * What often happens is that the first round or so are fine because although the parents are carrying the canker organisms, they aren't present in sufficient numbers to cause illness. But raising chicks causes some stress on the parents which can lead to trichomonads multiplying. The parent birds pass them on the the chicks in the course of feeding them and the chicks, who don't yet have immunity, get sick even though the parents appear healthy.*
> 
> Nearly all pigeons carry trich and it's nearly impossible to completely eradicate it.
> 
> *I also want to add that what you describe sounds like navel trich. Some of the organisms get spilled in the nest during feeding and can colonize the chicks' navels, causing the hard lumps you describe. *


That is great information, Cathy, I learn something new everyday. Thank you for sharing that.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Charis said:


> I stand corrected...
> I just read the article you posted, Feather, that does say it has been discontinued. Do you know when the article was written?


Charis,

No! Now I am unable to pull it up. But I am glad that it is not accurate.

Thank you Cathy...That was a great post.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I just called Foys, who told me that dimetridazole had been removed from the market but metronidazole is still available and as far as they know will remain so. They have just passed their FDA inspection so are quite sure they are correct in continuing to sell it. However they had no information as to whether further bans/restrictions are pending or WHY they drug was taken off the market. FWIW...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Charis said:


> It's baytril that is no longer available, at least to us through the supply places.


Try VitaKing:

http://www.vitakingproducts.com/storefronta.htm

Pidgey


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Well it seems that dimetridazole is available as well. Thanks Pidgey!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Dimetridazole (Emtryl) was always the one that you don't want to use because it has a lot narrower margin for toxicity in pigeons. So, you don't want to give it to them when there are any nestlings being raised, nor do you want to give it to them in summer. Of course, that's assuming you're talking about the water soluable powder that's put into the general waterer. If you've got some formulation for an individual basis (like a pill), then you'd probably be alright.

Pidgey


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## first flight (Apr 15, 2008)

*Hunh*

confused WHAT IS CRANCKER????????


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

first flight said:


> confused WHAT IS CRANCKER????????


CANKER not Cranker


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

first flight said:


> confused WHAT IS CRANCKER????????


"Canker" is the common term for Trichomoniasis.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Has anyone heard from Janet?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just sent her an email to ask. If she doesn't respond, I'll call her tomorrow.


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## Janet (Jan 17, 2008)

Hi everyone! I had to catch up on all the new post. I unfortunately have some bad news. I took the baby to the vet. She was put down. I never thought I would cry soo badly over a 1 week old pigeon. See- I 'm crying again just writing this. She had a granuloma. Not sure if thats spelled right. The granuloma they said they could fix, it was the other problem. The baby was definately hungry the vet said. She was also dehydrated. Her crop was full. I told Charis that she was having trouble digesting her food. Right before I went to the vet, I picked up baby applesauce. I was hoping the vet could help w/ feeding her and getting her food to digest. Oh, forgot to mention this, there was very little hard round lumps in her crop area. The vet said she would have to open up the crop, remove these lumps and then sew her back up. The lumps was what was keeping the baby from digesting. I was pretty much given a choice on how to go about with the little guy. She said the operation would cost a coulpe hundreds and that even then, there was a good chance he wasn't going to make it. She felt he was too young to try to go that route. But would have. My husband was angry with me yesterday evening b/c the baby was his new little friend. Overall, this has been a very heart wrenching experience. Charis, I gave my vet the list of medication I wanted. They carried them there. I still plan to check Foys out. My vet was also very helpful about a local woman to contact for info on caring for pigeons. She said to check out WhiteFlicker Rescue. Anyone ever heard of that? Thanks everyone for being soo nice and helpful. Were going to start treating the birds we have this weekend for Canker and for worms. I still need to get a hold of those wooden eggs. I had NO CLUE how fast and how often these guys multiplied. We made the pigeon house larger already. There going to soon have top move into our house if they don't stop....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Janet, I'm very sorry the baby is dead and I know how painful this is for you. Although I didn't see the baby and I'm not a vet, it still sound to me like the baby had a classic case of canker.
I think treating your entire flock for canker would be a very proactive thing to do right now. I suspect the medications will be more affordable through Foy's. Did you get the link to Foy's with the medications and prices I emailed you? Treat the birds for canker first. Personally, I wouldn't treat them for more than one thing at a time.Did the vet run a fecal on the baby?
Honestly, buying the wooden eggs is the most important right now. You don't need any more babies. Taking the eggs away with out replacing them with faux eggs isn't a good idea as they just keep laying,never complete a cycle and that frequent egg laying process is hard on them. So...GET THOSE WOODEN EGGS!
I forgot to ask you the other night, do you give your birds grit and oyster shell?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry about the outcome with this little one. Did the vet clarify what triggered this granuloma and how it could be prevented ? Is it a threat to the adults?

You mentioned earlier that the baby was only a few days old and refer to it as "a one week old pigeon" when it was put to sleep. This gives me pause for thought, because according to the books and Helen a canker infection will only start to show when a squab is at least six days old. 

Cynthia


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Janet,

I am so sorry! These little ones are iffy when their parents don't want them anymore. Usually there is a reason for a pair to reject their young. Bless you for trying so hard to save this tiny life.


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## Janet (Jan 17, 2008)

Thank you all. Yes, I did get the link to Foys. I have to go back to work again in a few minutes. My husband will not get on the computer at all to look anything up. I don't see myself having much time to check Foys out until the weekend. My work schedule is slow for next week and will be a good time for me to drive up to Foys. I'm still not sure how to get there, but thank God for GPS. The vet didn't say how he got granuloma. I pretty much fell apart when I was told the best thing to do was to put him down. I know she gave me a name and website to check out as well. She was very very nice and sympathetic toward me and the little fellow. She did say that they sometimes get that and that I should bring the birds in when I notice anything like that in the future. She said they could fix that problem. I was telling Charis earlier that she also mentioned "pox". I can't remember if she said he had that or if it looked like that. One minute the little guy was crawling around on my hand and the next he wasn't. I honestly thought I would get some medicine and take him home. I have alot of baby applesauce now!! I picked it up right before I went to the vets. I was hoping she would help me with it and he would start looking and feeling better. We have 4 more eggs right now and I don't have the heart to chuck them w/o the wooden eggs. I have 1 job tomorrow and think I will try to get them then.


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## Janet (Jan 17, 2008)

I feed my birds grit. What does oyster shells do? Also, should we feed them certain food during certain seasons? The two Racers we started with are much larger than the other ones we have now. We got them from a guy who races pigeons. How do I find out whats a good food for them and how often we should feed them. We have a tub of food that is out at all times. Should we be taking that out instaed of leaving it in there? We've been afraid to remove the food during the day. It seems like we keep having eggs and we didn't want the mother or father not to have food to feed there babies. Do they need the food to feed the babies or do they just feed them crop milk?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Janet, I'm so sorry your vet wasn't able to save the baby. Treating your birds preventatively before allowing them to have more chicks is the best thing you can do.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Janet said:


> I feed my birds grit. What does oyster shells do? Also, should we feed them certain food during certain seasons? The two Racers we started with are much larger than the other ones we have now. We got them from a guy who races pigeons. How do I find out whats a good food for them and how often we should feed them. We have a tub of food that is out at all times. Should we be taking that out instaed of leaving it in there? We've been afraid to remove the food during the day. It seems like we keep having eggs and we didn't want the mother or father not to have food to feed there babies. Do they need the food to feed the babies or do they just feed them crop milk?


Oyster shell provides the calcium the birds need to lay eggs. You can buy it in large bags at the feed store. It's not very expensive and will last you a long time.
You should only put out enough food for the day and pick up what is remaining at night and put it away. If it's all poopy and such...throw it out and give fresh the next morning. The reason it's important to pick it up at night,is because it can attract mice and rats. If they poop in the feed and then the pigeons eat some of the poop, they can get very sick. It's very important to keep rodents out of your loft. Rats will kill the pigeons in the night when they can't see to get away.
You should be feeding feed that has a protein of between 12-15%. 
Your pigeons will lay eggs all year long, at least mine do. After they finish trying to incubate a couple of eggs and give up, it's about 5 days before the hen lays the next egg, a couple of days after that the second egg and the cycle starts all over again....month after month..year after year...You really need to get those wooden eggs soon. Please don't let any more hatch until what ever is going on in your loft is resolved.
If you have the link your vet gave you, I'm sure many of us would love to review it. This is an on going learning process for us too and anything that can better our knowledge is appreciate.

PS. It's not a bad thing to have that baby applesauce in your pigeon first aid kit.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry you had to put the baby down. 

Reti


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## Janet (Jan 17, 2008)

TRUST ME, I WANT NO MORE EGGS!! I love my pidgy's, but I can't deal with anymore right now. My computer is acting up right now and giving me serious trouble. I can't put out a link, but the website she mentioned was 
"whiteflicker rescue". I have not checked it out yet. I just got back from work and will probably check it out tomorrow afternoon. If anyone else gets a chance to look at it, please let me know how it is.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Janet, I'm sorry the baby had to be put to sleep. 

Try some of the local craft stores in your area because they sometimes carry wooden eggs.


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