# Questions about beak color



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi everyone,

I am interested in the genetics of beak color, specifically the influence of modifiers on the color of the beak.

Other than smoky (and white or pied), which genes will alter the color of the beak. Which of these influence the color of the beak and beak ring at hatching?

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

There is a Strain of Homers called Trentons, at one time a very well known strain. Now just a few dedicated breeders keep them alive. They were once called the Waxbill Strain. All my Trentons carry a amber beak, even my solid blacks. I often wondered how this came about myself!


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## Colin (Mar 10, 2011)

Hi, i have also been wondering how the Magpie pigeon has aquired the crimson red colour to it's beak, 
Cheers

Colin.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

OldStrain said:


> There is a Strain of Homers called Trentons, at one time a very well known strain. Now just a few dedicated breeders keep them alive. They were once called the Waxbill Strain. All my Trentons carry a amber beak, even my solid blacks. I often wondered how this came about myself!


What exactly do you mean by amber? I've never heard of such a beak color before... Could you maybe post some pictures? 

The only light beaked blacks that I have ever heard of are those that carry a double dose of the smoky gene. This causes the pattern to be washed out somewhat, and lighter skin and beak on than would be expected. The easiest way to tell whether smoky is at work, is to check whether the albescent strip is present on the outer tail feathers. 

I have some archangel x barb crosses that show the effect of the smoky. Both archangels and barbs can have smoky in their make up.

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Colin said:


> Hi, i have also been wondering how the Magpie pigeon has aquired the crimson red colour to it's beak,
> Cheers
> 
> Colin.


Hi Colin,

I am not sure that the correct color for the beak of Magpies should be crimson. A breed standard I found on-line only specifies that the beak should be free of markings, though some color at the tip of certain color is allowable. I take this to mean that magpies also have to be homozygous for the smoky gene as stated in my reply to OldStrain above.

The cere of the magpie should be coral red though, and the wattles should have a red cast, is that what you are referring to? I am not sure how the color of the wattles and cere are inherited. Maybe someone else on the forum does?

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

A lot of recessive reds have light beaks. Which would be like Trentons, which many of them are RRs.


Domestic Flights, Scandaroons, and Magpies all have very red ceres/beaks. Mostly near the cere, and the beak turns into clear the closer it is to the tip.


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## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

A Amber beak is like a rich Honey color. Trenton hatchlings all have the same beak as a family of whites. The pigment of there legs also the same as a family of whites, some even have white toe nails. My Gurnays are altogether different as hatchling, the legs, beak and even their skin is black, unless they are splashes, then the beaks are marbled. I wish I knew how to do the pictures. Will try to get some local help.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> A lot of recessive reds have light beaks. Which would be like Trentons, which many of them are RRs.


I agree Becky, except that I want to go so far as to say ALL recessive reds have flesh colored / light beaks. I definitely have never seen one with a dark beak. Just as I have never seen an Ash-red with a black / dark beak. 

I assume some modifiers that could go with the recessive red could cause a darker beak, but I doubt it. Maybe an old hand could drop in and give us 



MaryOfExeter said:


> Domestic Flights, Scandaroons, and Magpies all have very red ceres/beaks. Mostly near the cere, and the beak turns into clear the closer it is to the tip.


The red cere (around the eye) is quite common actually. Over and above those you mentioned, Barbs have them too as well as many of the tippler / high-flier breeds. All of these birds show a reddish tinge to the wattles and what I would call a red skin or membrane that covers the top part of the beak, but the horny keratin part itself is definitely still a light / dark color (depending on the color and genetic make up of the bird in question.)

It is true though that most of the breeds with the red cere seem to prefer light colored beaks. Does this mean that the smoky mutation is a staple of these breeds, or do the red cere have something to do with it?

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

OldStrain said:


> A Amber beak is like a rich Honey color. Trenton hatchlings all have the same beak as a family of whites. The pigment of there legs also the same as a family of whites, some even have white toe nails. My Gurnays are altogether different as hatchling, the legs, beak and even their skin is black, unless they are splashes, then the beaks are marbled. I wish I knew how to do the pictures. Will try to get some local help.


It seems you have some interesting genetics involved in your flock. I am fairly certain that the amber beak you are talking about is a result of the smoky gene. When in the homozygous state, it causes the beak to be light instead of dark, but the degree of lightening is in question. I have noticed that the toenails of many of my birds are white / light, often because of pied or white-flight genes, but I have seen birds with only a tiny white tick behind the eye (often associated with Dirty), that had a few white toenails as well. I think smoky might also lighten the toes.

As I mentioned before, if your birds do not have the albescent strip on the outer edge of the outer two tail feathers, they definitely are homozygous smoky. If they do have a very defined albescent strip from the root of the feather all the way to the tail bar, that would be an interesting find.

The excessive pigmentation of your Gurneys are also a question. Which colors / patterns are they? Do their feet stay darker than your other birds' after fledging and only turn red later? If that is the case, we're probably talking about the dirty gene. Dirty is very visible and (to me) undesirable in a blue bar, but on T-Pattern Checks (or velvets) can make for some very beautiful blue tailed blacks.

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi all,

If anyone wants to read up on the smoky and dirty modifiers, here is a link to Ron Huntley's page on those modifiers (though most people have probably read it before).

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

To Rudolf: My Trentons come in many types of Smokes, Blue Checks, Chocolate Checks, Blue Bar and Blacks. If they are not Smokes they are Slates. Blue Checks, Bronze, Velvets and Red Checks. I also get Gimples. As you said the tail marginal’s are not typical. They do not have the white marginal’s that all/most other Blue Checks and Blue Bars do. My Dad started with the Trentons back in the 30’s. Back in 1999 I did raise a Blue Bar that was not a Smoke and it had white marginal tail feathers. I called my Dad up and told him, and he said to destroy the Bird and never breed that pair together again. I did not cull the Bird, I gave it to a local flyer, but I never bred that pair together again. I have read many Threads about the impossibilities of having a Pure Trenton, so I am hoping this does not lead into that type of nonsense discussion, But if you are ever in my neck of the woods you would be more that welcome to see my collection of Birds. By the way, The Gurnays I spoke of are Bronzes.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Most ressesive reds and yellows have a horn colored beak As do whites. Then most soft colored birds have a horn beak. Where soft colored birds also are short downed birds at birth. But even a few mags and qualmonds will have a horn beak or stained beak.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well there is a breed show called Swallow (just to name a few Silesian, Full-head slallow, Spot or Snip Swallow,Tiger Swallow) These birds have a upper beak that is black and a lower beak that is light in color.This is called for in their show standard. All these birds have color on the top of their heads while from just below the eye they are white all the way back to the tail,the wings are colored saddle like. I have seen this in racing birds splashes from time to time. It is very intresting and I will have to check my genetic books to see if there is more information. .GEORGE*


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

george simon said:


> *Well there is a breed show called Swallow (just to name a few Silesian, Full-head slallow, Spot or Snip Swallow,Tiger Swallow) These birds have a upper beak that is black and a lower beak that is light in color.This is called for in their show standard. All these birds have color on the top of their heads while from just below the eye they are white all the way back to the tail,the wings are colored saddle like. I have seen this in racing birds splashes from time to time. It is very intresting and I will have to check my genetic books to see if there is more information. .GEORGE*


*

Hi George,

I would assume the swallows' beak markings are a result of selection on the pied genes, in other words the embryonic area where the lower beak grows from is in the "white" area while the dark upper bill develops from the colored areas of the embryo. What did your genetics resources have to say?

I am also wondering about the influence of that modifier genes have on beak color. For instance, I have a few archangels (bronze-blackwing) in my loft. These birds are genetically very dark T-Pattern, smoky, iridescent, grease quills with archangel bronze (at least that is how I understand it). I assume they might are extreme dirty too - their tails are very nearly all black, instead of the blue and black bar expected. 

Since their beaks are dark (with just a hint of flesh color right at the base), I wondered whether the dirty is the cause of the enforcing if dark beak color, even though the birds should have light beaks due to the homozygous smoky. I also have pair of hybrid youngsters from an arch and a black barb (also **** smoky) and both have light beaks with just the very tip dark. The youngster that did not get the spread gene from the barb sire does show a distinct tail bar, so it did not get the extreme dirtying factor(s) that the archangel mother shows. 

I was just wondering whether anyone else has done any archangel crosses and came to similar conclusions?

Kind regards,
Rudolph*


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