# Canker Pigeon



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have been watching the pigeon that has the bad canker and as he breathes one side of his front inflates and deflates. It isn't a ruptured air sac, but more like when they deliberately swell themselves up to defend their nest, but on one side only. 

Does anyone know what this indicates? I haven't seen it in pigeons with canker or in pigeons with a respiratory infection.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, Cynthia, does it (inflation) only happen on the expiration cycle?

Pidgey


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

Cynthia,
Can you run your fingers down the side of the throat that shows no expansion? Is there a mass there that isn't on the other side?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Pidgey, I can't tell!

Pigeon Person, there is a massive lump in the throat on the side that doesn't expand. Is that very bad news? 


Cynthia


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

Hi,
What it means is that the mass of canker is interfering with the normal contraction and expansion of tissues so that's the explanation for your not seeing it on that side.
The disease itself is bad news and we won't know how much damage has been done until the canker falls apart. The mass in the throat is so heavy that it may fall into the crop first before smaller areas come apart. If it falls down before the body can separate the mass from the blood vessels, there may be a hemmorhage and there isn't anything you can do about that possibility unless you want to take the chance and ask a vet to operate in order to remove the mass before it pulls down. That would be very risky because this bird is a lot weaker than he's showing. This is a wait and see situation.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Pigeon Person, I doubt that this little one would survive surgery so I will have to just hope and pray. 

Cynthia


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

As long as you don't hold yourself responsible for anything bad that might happen. You didn't cause this disease and you aren't responsible for getting him, possibly too late. If you take him in for surgery, as you say, he very well may not survive. If you keep him at home, he could bleed to death and not survive. We aren't God and can't predict what is going to happen. You're doing the best you can in a catch 22 situation.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I let a vet (not the one I use now) put a pigeon under anaesthetic to remove deeply embedded thread. When I rang up to see when I could take him home she said "Oh, he died..." and when I asked what of she said, carelessly "It could have been shock, blood loss or the effects of the anaesthetic." Now that made me feel responsible, because it was an unnecessary death. But if a pigeon dies of canker when I have given all the right medications and haven't actually caused a bleed myself then I think that the only other outcome would have been to have it put to sleep which would give it no chance, so I feel very sad but not guilty. 

And I honestly think that this one's chances of surviving surgery would be very slim.


Cynthia


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

Believe me, I understand so do whatever you can. This is an advanced case of canker. None of us could do more than what you are doing.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, 


Do you have ( or can you get ) "Berimax" there in England?

If so, I would consider to use it in conjunction with whatever else you are treating this with.


Now too, Surgery to open the skin of the Neck there, and to examine the actual mass and situation, is not especially painful for the Bird, and would not require ( potentially lethal ) Anaesthetic, so long as the Veterinary practioner is willing, and of course you are willing to hold the Bird this-way-and-that under a good Light, for the proceedure to be performed.

At least in my mind, the times I have had Pigeons or Doves with 'lumps' in their lower Necks or Crop areas, these seemed to have turned out ( post mortum or not) to have been Abcesses filled with greyish-white firm matter, whether well hydrated or relatively dry, even if previously accompanied by Canker that by 'then' was cured or abated, if the abcess or mass were not per-se Canker themselves...and sometimes these had 'eaten' or eroded the Esophagus or Crop itself to where serious tissue loss had occurred.

Likely this tissue loss was already occurred when I got them, and the medicines arrested the progress of the illness/abcess/canker...which as pigeonpal wisely mentions, is some of the dramatic "wait and see" thing with this -

I have to wonder if it is not sometimes better to consider to make an ample incision, examine the 'mass' or Abcess pragmatically, ( which can sometimes be surrounding a foreign object, whether or not a dense enough one - Fox Tail or something - to show in an X-Ray, ) and if it seems feasable, to remove the Mass carefully, and immediately then suture what perforation there may be in the Esophagus or Crop, and save the Bird all that trouble of having to absorb and eliminate the 'mass' metabolically-immunologically.

At least for me, the last time I had one of those kinds of situations with a Pigeon or Dove, I felt afterward that 'next time' I would seriously consider to appeal to my Vet for us to do so.

Probably, the prognosis at 'that' point, will be as good as it is going to get anyway, or maybe even better than waiting, unless we suppose their Esophagus or other Tissue to be regenerating itself correctly 'as' the mass subsides, and to a meaningful enough degree...and this I do not know, but could be important of course.


Good luck Cynthia..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The reason why I asked what I did was because I was afraid that there might be a hole in the trachea down there somewhere that's leaking out air subcutaneously when the bird breathes out. I guess you'd have to watch the tail and back at the same time you were watching the neck bubble--if the bubble expands at the same time the back and tail are dropping, then it's on the exhale. If there is a hole in the trachea, I would think it'd need repairing eventually. If it's a hole in an air sac, it should probably heal on its own. Gotta' admit, though, that I haven't been able to visualize quite where this bubble is occuring. I fully understand that the bird might not be able to make it through a surgery at this point and I know how hard that is to watch. Best of luck, Cynthia!

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Cynthia, I sure hope you are able to resolve the problem with this little bird.

Walter had a problem with canker, which I didn't initially treat because no growths were visible in his throat. (Now I know that canker growths can be completely internal.) The canker ate a hole through the tissue in his throat. When he coughed, all the air sacks in his throat inflated!!! (Very scarey to see!!!)

Once the canker was treated, he healed up rapidly. Sure hope your bird recovers as quickly!


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2007)

Phil,
There are a nice few reasons why this should not be done but one thing, I must say.
These birds feel pain. They don't normally say ouch like us but they have the capacity for feeling agony and often do. They may not show it on the outside and would be helpless while being held and cut open but they would feel it the same way we would. Right now, this bird may be standing and ruffling his feathers to mask his sickness but on the inside, he's suffering greatly and we should never do anything to make it worse.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Phil, we don't have Berimax but he is getting both Metronidazole and Spartix.

Pidgey, I will video him later on (I always forget that we have that facilty now).

Pigeon Person, I think that you are right on this. Besides, my vet would never carry out any painful procedure without anaesthetic.

Terri, I thought that if it had eroded the trachea there was no hope. Thanks for the positive input.

He is eating on his own now, some tiny seeds in a treat mix that John provided. His latest poop was well formed, topped with urates but dark green.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia, I had an adult male in this situation who recently died. He also inflated on one side only (the other side occluded by/canker) and when viewing the inside of the mouth, there was alot of 'bluing' inside. The coloration initially improved w/medication and he seemed to be doing much better, but then slid downhill fast. I think that he had the second wind because he gained relief from meds (some for other issues) but as pigeonperson expained, 'If it falls down before the body can separate the mass from the blood vessels, there may be a hemmorhage...', which it did.

Conversely, a baby this summer who had canker so severely that it had eaten all the way through to the outside of the crop underwent surgery, survived, and was stable. In an unfortunate situation, the staff lost this baby the following morning. 

A baby I have right now is surviving the dissolving process from a lump
about the size of a dime. H/she was also inflating on one side and had difficulty breathing. H/her lower mandible is mis-shapeen from it, but otherwise is hanging in there, so far so good. The inflating on one side seems to be greatly diminished, and the little one is beginnning to peck at seeds now. 

I hope that your canker bird gets better soon w/out 'incident' and you are able to breath
a sigh of relief.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> *He is eating on his own now, some tiny seeds in a treat mix that John provided. His latest poop was well formed,* topped with urates but dark green.
> 
> Cynthia


Thanks for the update Cynthia.  
Sounds like your little patient is feeling better.  

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

He is not doing the inflating thing at the moment.

When I got home from walking the dogs the first thing I did was check up on him, and he had disappeared! The cloakroom is smaller that 6ft x 3, and there aren't many places that could conceal a pigeon. The door and window were closed. I was completely flumoxed, but had to accept the possibility that he had escaped into the house where he could have met my elderly but nimble cat. As I walked out of the cloakroom I found him wandering around pecking at the floor. He must have slipped through my legs when I slid the door open.

This babyis so clever!

But yesterday I met a pigeon/bird lover and she said that she had seen him huddled under a bench the day before I found him and did nothing. Joan, who tends to the flock, also said that she ad seen a white one with black markings looking very ill. She left it to die, probably beause I had told her that I am no longer able to keep sick pigeons in the house. This despite the fact that I had given her the telephone number of people that could help. I can't understand how "pigeon lovers" can walk by a sick pigeon. If they do, how can we expect those that are indifferent to their plight to act with compassion?

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> But yesterday I met a pigeon/bird lover and *she said that she had seen him huddled under a bench the day before I found him and did nothing.* Joan, who tends to the flock, also said that she ad seen a white one with black markings looking very ill. She left it to die, probably beause I had told her that I am no longer able to keep sick pigeons in the house. This despite the fact that I had given her the telephone number of people that could help. I can't understand how "pigeon lovers" can walk by a sick pigeon. If they do, how can we expect those that are indifferent to their plight to act with compassion?
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia, 

First off, I'm glad to hear that this one is doing better and even though he's a sneaky little devil, lol! Sounds like quite an escape artist you've got there.

In regards to this lady leaving him to die... I think that sometimes people don't know what to do. Maybe she didn't want to take on the responsibility of looking after the bird until help came? Maybe she didn't want it to die under her care or was even worried about diseases to herself and/or her family.

There are many "hands off" types of bird lovers out there...ones that just like to keep a distance and watch birds. I don't feel that this necessarily means that she didn't care. The mindset of a true rehabber is a little different from your average person but this doesn't make the others less of animal lovers. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say and possibly explain why the lady acted or didn't act in this case.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Maybe she didn't want to take on the responsibility of looking after the bird until help came? Maybe she didn't want it to die under her care or was even worried about diseases to herself and/or her family.


That is a kind thought, Brad. But this is the lady that I was told knew everything there is to know about pigeons when I rescued my first one. She always took sick and injured pigeons to Carol and then started bringing them to me when Carol curtailed her rescue activities. Occasionally she could be persuaded to keep simple cases like leg injuries when all my cages were full but found them too time consuming so after that she would phone me and ask if she should bring a pigeon to me or leave it to die or have it PTS. 

She didn't even need to pick the pigeon up as I have driven out before to pick up pigeons she had spotted but left.

I had also given her the number of an animal rescue place that Carol accepts referrals from.

I suppose she thought that because I had developed "pigeon lung" I would leave a pigeon to die rather than risk my own health. Still, I am disillusioned.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> But this is the lady that I was told knew everything there is to know about pigeons when I rescued my first one. *She always took sick and injured pigeons to Carol and then started bringing them to me when Carol curtailed her rescue activities. ** Occasionally she could be persuaded to keep simple cases like leg injuries* when all my cages were full but found them too time consuming so after that she would phone me and ask if she should bring a pigeon to me or leave it to die or have it PTS.
> 
> *She didn't even need to pick the pigeon up as I have driven out before to pick up pigeons she had spotted but left.
> *
> ...



Hi Cynthia, 

Thanks for clarifying this...you're right, it does seem odd then Sounds like she's very conflicted, to say the least.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

So far so good. The large lump in the throat seems to have disappeared now, there is just a small nodule in the throat visible.

In the meantime I have another camker patient from the same flock, this time a white one that still has the broadened lower beak which shows he is only a baby (he hasn't squeaked).

That makes 5 casualties from a flock of around 60 in less than 2 week .

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> * *So far so good. The large lump in the throat seems to have disappeared now, there is just a small nodule in the throat visible.*
> 
> ** *In the meantime I have another camker patient from the same flock, this time a white one that still has the broadened lower beak which shows he is only a baby *(he hasn't squeaked).
> 
> ...


* Thanks for the update Cynthia. Glad to hear things seem to be looking up.  

** I hope the baby recovers without incident.  

*** How sad. That reminds me of the 12 PMV pijjies that showed up on our back lawn in a 2 week span a few years ago.  I never want to go through that again.

Cindy


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Joan!*

Cynthia,

Sorry to hear the problems re Joan as she is/was your friend wasn't she? You were always talking about her picking up this and that and bringing them to you. 

I guess as Brad says she doesn't want to lumber you with any sick pigeons due to your own illnesses but on the other hand if you have given her numbers of people she can call then that is a shame. 

I wonder when there are so many needy birds out there that some people can't cope with it anymore whereas as others can.

I couldn't pass any injured bird or animal even if I didn't know what to do with it. I'd pick it first and think later..... 

Good luck with your little guy - sounds a bit like Houdini!! 

Tania xx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Tania,

Perhaps it is because she knew I had already taken in two sick pigeons she took in one with canker and held it is a heated cage in the garage overnight for me to collect in the morning.

As I mentioned in another thread they don't think I have extribsic allergic alveolitis after all, but I am taking care not to get it. I am becoming quite imaginative in finding places where I can keep sick pigeons in the house without filling a room with pigeon protein.

The good news is that another person has agreed to feed and water this flock 4 times a week, so I need only go to the green on the days I already feed the city pigeons,

Cynthia


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> The good news is that another person has agreed to feed and water this flock 4 times a week, so I need only go to the green on the days I already feed the city pigeons,
> 
> Cynthia


I'm glad to hear that.  

I now am feeding my little friends at Teddington Lock 5 days a week and I don't mind but I don't want them to get too reliant on me - but they (the pigeons) recognise me as well as the crows and the woodpigeons who get in a in a flutter when I arrive so there's no sneaking past them. 

I have canada geese, ducks, a coot, a couple of moorhens, seagulls ( loads), about 10 pigeons, 5 woodies, a robin and about 6 crows all gathering for a feed  - Its not so bad except that I have to balance this daily bag of food on my bike...... 

Cynthia, gald you are coping OK - I worry about you because I know you would find it hard to give up the pidgies ( as if ?? !!!!) 

Tania xx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Just a final update. The pigeon made a full recovery and was released back into his flock. I put a ring on him so that I could watch out for him and he is doing well.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Just a final update. *The pigeon made a full recovery and was released back into his flock.* I put a ring on him so that I could watch out for him and he is doing well.
> 
> Cynthia


    

Thanks for the wonderful update Cynthia.

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wonderful. 
I love happy endings. 

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT, Cynthia!! Many thanks for the update!!


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Great news Cynthia! Thanks for letting us know.

Lindi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Excellent news, Cynthia! I'm glad the bird is well and back with the flock.

Terry


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia, job very well done!

Ron


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