# Kaytee Bird Greens??? Other nutrition questions...



## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi everyone! We are a couple of weeks into our new life with Pidge and I realize there is so much to learn!

My latest question is on what else to feed him. He has been eating Foy's no-corn pigeon mix, and I wanted to supplement that with some kind of greens. We're not salad eaters in our household, so there is nothing in the fridge for Pidge, but I ran across a package of Katee brand Bird Greens "For All Birds" and wondered if they would be OK for him.

The greens contain: *Dehydrated Alfalfa Leaves, Dehydrated Carrots, Dehydrated Celery Leaves, Dehydrated Spinach, Dried Apple, Dried Peach, Dried Apricot, Pepper Seeds, Natural Flavor *(whatever that is...)

Question 1: Is there anything in the list that isn't good for him? I wasn't sure about the fruits or seeds -- are these OK? Our avian vet said he didn't know...

Question 2: All other thoughts on goodies for Pidge are appreciated. He woun't eat peanuts and doesn't seem to eat his big peas either. I was thinking of making some freeze-dried meal worms available to him for a bit more protein too. He is on the balcony, so he gets sunlight and his vitamin D. 

Question 3: I also give him fortified Hi-Cal Grit from Foy's, but our vet recommended pure oyster shell instead. He said the silica, granite, etc. in pigeon grits are indigestible -- at best, they give him no added nutrients, it worst, I think he implied they can hurt Pidge's digestive system...Have others heard this??? I am not sure what to think.

Thank you all for your wonderful posts and info!!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Grit And Oyster Shell::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::*

DOWN TOWN, In answer to question #3. I have been raising racing pigeons for many years and my birds get oyster shell and GRIT. Unlike other birds pigeons swallow their grain whole. Because of the tough and fibrous coating of the seeds a small supply of digestive stone is kept in the pigeons stomach.As the muscular stomach wall contracts,the hard grit acts on the hard seed and pulverizes the seed thus making the nutriance they contain available to the bird. Grit and oyster shell should be removed only when medicating birds with drugs in the Tetracycline family.The calcum in the grit and oyster shell binds with the drug and thus it becomes unavailable for use by the bird. I would say your vet is a dog and cat vet only GEORGE


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DTB,


The K-T Greens sound good to me...

Ideally, fresh, live, growing Greens, like the various feral and Wild Pigeons will brouse, are the best. 

Fresh leafy Kales, Endives, Chards are worth a try, to see if they will peck off little bites...some will, many will not...but if you have one Pigeon who will, then soon they all will...so, if you just have one Bird, you might need to ham it up and pretend you are pecking at it and really likeing it and so on...

Dried, thin, matted Sea Weed, which I get at most Oriental Markets for 99 Cents...3 thin matted discs about 9 inches in diameter...which I shred some of in my fingers into little Beak size bits, and my Birds really enjoy eating it...

One can of course grow various kinds of Sprouts in little trays of Soil, and this too would be an excellent way to present them with various kinds of Greens for them to brouse...


Direct Out-Door Sunshine also is important for them to have, and, often if possible...


Have fun...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

My pigeons enjoy spinach and curly kale. Curly kale is one of the best greens for pigeons, but it takes time getting them to eat it. They pick it apart and flick it around, it is quite amusing watching them eating it. They get greens only once a week as it should only be a snack not a main source of food in their diet.

Pigeons will eat chicory, turnip greens, and will eat African Marigolds as well as tulips if allowed. Pigeons enjoy upturned sod if they don't have access to free flight. Make sure it has not been sprayed with any kinds of pesticides.

I also give my pigeons a pigeon mix without corn, but I do add a ratio of mix with corn, as it is an important part of their diet. They do not eat as much corn in the summer as they do in winter, so I buy both kinds. I also add organic brown rice 2%, flax seeds and green peas in very small quantities. I also keep extra safflower seeds for them as tiny snack. They can also have other oily seeds, such as hemp, linseed, cabbage seed in very small quantites.

My birds get red grit as well as an oyster picking cake.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*My thoughts*



downtownbirdies said:


> Question 1: Is there anything in the list that isn't good for him? I wasn't sure about the fruits or seeds -- are these OK? Our avian vet said he didn't know...
> 
> Question 2: All other thoughts on goodies for Pidge are appreciated. He woun't eat peanuts and doesn't seem to eat his big peas either. I was thinking of making some freeze-dried meal worms available to him for a bit more protein too. He is on the balcony, so he gets sunlight and his vitamin D.
> 
> Question 3: I also give him fortified Hi-Cal Grit from Foy's, but our vet recommended pure oyster shell instead. He said the silica, granite, etc. in pigeon grits are indigestible -- at best, they give him no added nutrients, it worst, I think he implied they can hurt Pidge's digestive system...Have others heard this??? I am not sure what to think.


The list of foods is fine, but it depends on the pigeons likes and dislikes. I currently have 5 of them, and I have learned that they all have different eating habits...just like you and I!Now, your Veterinarian may be very capable in the care and treatment of other animals, but most are not actually proficient in birds. Try and find a vet office that has a doctor that also has a know how about birds.An Avian vet would be best. My vet office has 3 vets and one also has a certificate in Avian treatment.

My first pigeon Tooter hated raw unsalted peanuts, and I ended up putting it in my feral seed jar I use to feed the corner pigeons. There again, it depends on their individual taste personalities. I believe all piegons like the unsalted shelled sunflower seeds, and safflower seeds. Good on the sunlight...that is a must, even if only for a few hours. I am going to the store, thanks for the thought. I need to see if my current mini flock is accepting of them. Surely one or two of them will like it?! 

I provide my pigeons with the red pigeon grit. A large bag, I think cost me 7 bucks, and it goes a long way. The larger chunks, well I like to grind them up to make sure they can consume it comfortably. The first year I had a pigeon, I used the Kaytee Hi Cal grit (the one with a cocketeil in front), it was larger, grey, but the red stuff meant for pigeons is best for them.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Victor, how do you grind up the red grit? Thanks


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Ohh, Hi Maggie~ I just got back fromPet~Co. Geeze, WE are going thru  Kaytee Paloma-Dove mix like CrAzY! I am I lucky it was on sale! Got a FEW bags. I mainly went there to get some more deep dishes. Barbie still had her small (rescue) dishes and Paris has some not so deep hanging ones that came with her, and she was making a mess with them. 

Anyway, I simply grind up the larger ones with the back of a good tablespoon. Most of the red grit is ready to use, but it is more *ME*  than a "them" issue.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Victor, thank you. We have not used the red grit yet - plan to order some soon. Have been giving them the Kaytee.

While we're on the subject of grit. Will it hurt our little babies in the aviary if the parents feed them grit. It is the larger Kaytee and we had pulled it when the foster eggs started hatching but I worry because I know our larger birds need it.


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

george simon said:


> DOWN TOWN, In answer to question #3. I have been raising racing pigeons for many years and my birds get oyster shell and GRIT... *I would say your vet is a dog and cat vet only *GEORGE


Well, actually, the vet is one of only six vets in the US that devote their practice to 100% avian. He's not a dog and cat guy. That's what made me take his opinion to heart a little. He said the sand, granite and other stone included in pigeon grit is completely indigestible so it is a waste. The oyster shell helps with ginding AND can be digested. I am really not sure what to think...I'll probably just give Pidge both.

The other surprise from the vet was that he recommended against Scalex for mites-- he said it is too toxic. (He said stick with Sevin dust...Pidge has a pigeon fly and some feather lice.)


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## downtownbirdies (Apr 7, 2006)

I was worried the about the dried peach and apricot and the pepper seeds. Are you sure these are OK? Have any of your pidggies eaten these?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just a comment about greens...

Did not know about pigeons and greens until one day I was making a salad. Squeaks was on the floor near by. I accidently dropped a "greenie" and Squeaks gobbled it down in a flash! Just for fun, I pinched off small pieces and dropped them down to him. He LOVED 'em...  

Every so often, I will drop him some greens to get some entertainment! That bird is FAST and never misses a piece! GREAT eyesight!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi downtownbirdies,

A few comments to many issues here. Grit would also need to be pulled w/Baytril treatments in addition to the Tetracycline family drugs. 
If you get the true granite grit, I don't believe it is digested, and can remain in the gizzard for quite sometime. There are non-granite grits, however, and 
conventional wisdom for pigeon diets is, they require the minerals and trace elements provided in this type of grit--there are pigeon specific ones that are available through the Pigeon Supply Houses in the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455


Sometimes I have purchased red grit locally that I thought had some rough edges or a bit on the large side, and I didn't like this. I picked up a coffee grinder (so no residues from coffee were inside) and used this to grind the grit with. I save this grinder for grit only--I've got a ways to go with this bag 
 . As for the dried apricot and peach....I don't know and hope someone who does will weigh in on the topic. I know the ferals will eat firm banannas and cherries, Phil gives them Goji Berries (check the resource section), although I hear they are pricey..

They do like lettuce, but there is a current caution in the news regarding some bagged mixes of greens having been grown in an environment that had E.coli present and can't be washed to correct the problem. There have been reported cases of folks going to the ER for treatment and the bagged greens being cited as the source after being tested for the bacteria. So, don't stop giving them greens, just avoid the bagged mixes  .

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

downtownbirdies said:


> Well, actually, the vet is one of only six vets in the US that devote their practice to 100% avian. He's not a dog and cat guy. That's what made me take his opinion to heart a little. He said the sand, granite and other stone included in pigeon grit is completely indigestible so it is a waste. The oyster shell helps with ginding AND can be digested. I am really not sure what to think...I'll probably just give Pidge both.
> 
> The other surprise from the vet was that he recommended against Scalex for mites-- he said it is too toxic. (He said stick with Sevin dust...Pidge has a pigeon fly and some feather lice.)




Hi downtowbirdies,


Your Vet does not seem to be familiar with the function of the 'Gizzard'.


Theropods, for hundreds of millions of years, whether having eschewed 'teeth' or not, have injested stones which are used in their Gizzards, to masticate their food.

Paleontologically, these have tended to be called 'Thunder Stones', but, they are nothing more or lesss than the 'grit' which larger Theropods had eaten for their Gizzards.

Birds, as extant Theropods, injest small stones or rocks of various expediently available compositions, because their Gizzards utilize them for masticating their Food.

This is not 'a waste', it is a natural and appropriate thing for them to do...it is some of how their system works.


It is not about the Bird obtaining nutrition from the small rocks, or stones...which may occur as an incidental...it is about their Gizzard useing them for grinding-chewing their already semi-processed injested food...so it may be further digested in their intestines.

Their nourishment is derived form the food they eat...not from the 'grit', small rocks, or stones...

Wild or feral Birds find excellent health, and available Calcium and other minerals, without relying on it deriveing from the grit they injest.

Captive Birds, domestic Birds no allowed to free roam in the broaderr out of doors, Pigeons in our case, tend to be denied the seasonal varieties found in brousing or forraging a wide geographical or varied local range...and who can not enjoy the quality of diets the wild or feral ones ( ideally) have, may become deficient in various minerals and vitamines because of a limited and usually continually same small variety of same 'seed' diet, too little direct Sunshine, and with little or no seasonal variations of food choices, and little to no live plant or vegetative materials to eat...or the opportunities to even learn to do these things, on their own or from others, as the wild or feral ones may...


Love,

...and Gizzards...!

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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