# Best Stud in the USA (Sure Bet or Kid Kanibaal?)



## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Jimhalekw said:


> If you are worried about a pair selling for $55K then don't look at this. http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=83159


I realize this is just advertising.

Based on advertising by way of Sure Bet website, and Protege website and Digest ads, ipigeon, etc... 

Is Kid Kannibaal really better than Sure Bet on paper? Or is this a Kenny/Victor issue playing out here?

Based on paper (and not any genetic testing, etc), Sure Bet seems to have at least 100x the number of wins
than Kid Kannibaal ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

anil_pigeon said:


> I realize this is just advertising.
> 
> Based on advertising by way of Sure Bet website, and Protege website and Digest ads, ipigeon, etc...
> 
> ...


 I would think the way to really test them out, would be to purchase a couple dozen from each line, and then race them and record the results. Then from those that remain, breed them and test out the offspring. If one does that, then they would be in a much better position to tell which line produces the best results.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

..............Super 73


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

"Almost Perfect" was also a bird that probably has sired more money winners than the other two. Vic Miller earned over 250k with the offspring alone in one race. My friend another 30k in the same race with offspring of the birds.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Clausing's Ziko is another bird that founded a bunch of money winners. Don't think Sure Bet has sired a South African Winner.


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

SUREBET and KANNIBAL I would really question these two just how GREAT are they truely???,, first does everyone really want to be a follower? second there are bloodlines that are MORE impressive than these two that have bred HUNDREDS of winners not just in USA or parts of a country but WORLD WIDE that makes these 2 look like beginners,,,, marketing is a GREAT tool those with MONEY can really take advantage of this tool,,, the old saying it takes money to make money has never more true! I dont mean to knock these 2 GREAT bloodlines but I see lots of MISS marketing on both ends! CASE point the latest you tube video with Victor saying what really makes a smart pigoen is the way his PET dtr off SUREBET is sooo smart because she will come to his shoulder???? If you think thats what separates SMART pigeons then I have a problem with that! I agree with Warren on this one anyone eants to see what he or she can fly best buy a dz or two off each bloodline and put thme through ur course same time! but stop the BS on the nonsense! its a FREE country everyone can say what they want


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Melsloft said:


> SUREBET and KANNIBAL I would really question these two just how GREAT are they truely???,, first does everyone really want to be a follower? second there are bloodlines that are MORE impressive than these two that have bred HUNDREDS of winners not just in USA or parts of a country but WORLD WIDE that makes these 2 look like beginners,,,, marketing is a GREAT tool those with MONEY can really take advantage of this tool,,, the old saying it takes money to make money has never more true! I dont mean to knock these 2 GREAT bloodlines but I see lots of MISS marketing on both ends! CASE point the latest you tube video with Victor saying what really makes a smart pigoen is the way his PET dtr off SUREBET is sooo smart because she will come to his shoulder???? If you think thats what separates SMART pigeons then I have a problem with that! *I agree with Warren on this one anyone eants to see what he or she can fly best buy a dz or two off each bloodline and put thme through ur course same time! * but stop the BS on the nonsense! its a FREE country everyone can say what they want


Yeah....maybe it is like that old debate I first heard about a hundred or so years ago......."Which is better a Chevy or a Ford " ??? A hundred different owners may have a hundred different experiences and perspectives. 

And the problem with just comparing race records, is that they are rarely all the same races. And one family of birds may have had more family members entered into races, and/or some race records may not be recorded, because there may not have been some inducement for the owners to report their winnings. 

The other problem with measuring a family from reported race winnings, is that it only reports what has happened at some time in the past, and can not tell you what is likely to happen into the future. It may be interesting, and it may be an interesting debate, as to which family has had the greatest influence on the sport, but does not suggest what family of pigeons a fancier should acquire today in order to win races going into the future.


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> MelsLoft.com?
> 
> Looks like you're no novice on the marketing angle...
> 
> ...


Pro I am a novice dude,, this is my 3rd year breeding ,,, just got back actually after a 20 year lapse from when I was a kid in the Bronx! Yes Pro MIS-MARKETING!! You can look at all my records on each race,, we only enter a handful of birds not like MOST,,, if you think it matters that much against how many one loft birds a winner wins against ,,think again!!!! cause our "TRIPLE XXX" won over $21K against 8 birds at the FINAL race in Tournament of Champions! AFTER a SMASH set of races! a winner is a winner no matter how you look at it! I know U like to talk the talk but so can I


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

Melsloft said:


> Pro I am a novice dude,, this is my 3rd year breeding ,,, just got back actually after a 20 year lapse from when I was a kid in the Bronx! Yes Pro MIS-MARKETING!! You can look at all my records on each race,, we only enter a handful of birds not like MOST,,, if you think it matters that much against how many one loft birds a winner wins against ,,think again!!!! cause our "TRIPLE XXX" won over $21K against 8 birds at the FINAL race in Tournament of Champions! AFTER a SMASH set of races! a winner is a winner no matter how you look at it! I know U like to talk the talk but so can I


Pro if you care more about against how many birds,, we have birds we have imported from Holland that have won against 10,000 - 27,000 birds!!!!!! but since we are in the USA and we don't run against #'s like that what is ur point? a aWINNER is a WINNER againt no matter how many birds,, cause so called guys put their BEST in !


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> It matters if you are a bird seller, trying to sell birds off a one loft race average speed winner against only 8 birds and fail to mention it in your advertising.
> 
> I think it does matter, do you want to breed out of winners that proved themselves against hundreds/thousands of the top birds in the country/world? Or do you want to breed out of a bird that won vs 100 pigeons and only 8 pigeons in the final 300 miler? For me the answer is simple...
> 
> For you personally, I think its awesome that you won $21k in your 3rd year...laughing all the way to the bank. Congrats.




WRONG PRO!!! if anyone wishes to know they can easily look it up or ask,,, don't act like a dip ok,,,whats the matter you feel out of place or something? maybe Jealous?? you gotta be in it to win it dude,,, see you at Americas International ! and also Pro I'm not seklling birds off "TRIPLE XXX" I'm selling birds off the parents so get ur facts STRAIGHT! 
No pun intended just defending what you wrote cause it aint true! SO IN REALITY my winner was bred off birds that WON against TENS of thousands in HOLLAND and they can breed winners here even though no where in the USA are their that many birds to WIN against in one loft races!


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

Melsloft said:


> WRONG PRO!!! if anyone wishes to know they can easily look it up or ask,,, don't act like a dip ok,,,whats the matter you feel out of place or something? maybe Jealous?? you gotta be in it to win it dude,,, see you at Americas International ! and also Pro I'm not seklling birds off "TRIPLE XXX" I'm selling birds off the parents so get ur facts STRAIGHT!
> No pun intended just defending what you wrote cause it aint true! SO IN REALITY my winner was bred off birds that WON against TENS of thousands in HOLLAND and they can breed winners here even though no where in the USA are their that many birds to WIN against in one loft races!


PRO one more thing TPRIPLE XXX won TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS RACE in SUREBETS back yard!!! WHAT does that SAY?? if u bother to look a total of 236 birds were entered,, you can view this online,, some guys entered 12 birds,, only "2" were entered that I bred! and we beat them all Hucthins entered 12, Ganus entered 12 and more under his wife 6 and I'm sure he had more under other names!


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> Mel, I believe you that you are a novice.


I guess it takes one to know one


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I have noticed that certain "NAME" big time lofts,only send birds out to races that have their "FRIEND" flying their birds,or a friend that is the LOFT MGR of the one loft race...And when they send 20 birds,and only 1 or 2 get clocked,there are no results shown for the other 18 birds...Then you see a full page COLOR ad,with the 1st or 2nd clocked pigeons in the race,who are allready breeding winners...I`m not a beleiver in named pigeons...What I want to see is the race results....Here`s what I mean below..

Race #1 >> Sunny with a 10/15 mph wind....Winning Speed .. 1567.983

Race #2 >> Overcast with a 10 mph headwind....Winning Speed...1075.123

What race do you want the winner from for "FREE" ?? You don`t have to pay for it !!....300/350 Mile races !!!


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Me, personally, I take the bird in the headwind. That tail wind race should have been much faster. (Would also like to know the distances, but thats just me.)


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

Matt Bell said:


> Me, personally, I take the bird in the headwind. That tail wind race should have been much faster. (Would also like to know the distances, but thats just me.)


most of my birds win in head winds,, "TRIPLE XXX" won the final 300 race in VEGAS against 10mph and won with a speed of 1098.413 over 2 1/2" minutes ahead of the second place bird,, mind you thi swas a course over mountains and most birds got lost turning up in Arizona!


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Melsloft said:


> WRONG PRO!!! if anyone wishes to know they can easily look it up or ask,,, don't act like a dip ok,,,whats the matter you feel out of place or something? maybe Jealous?? you gotta be in it to win it dude,,, see you at Americas International ! and also Pro I'm not seklling birds off "TRIPLE XXX" I'm selling birds off the parents so get ur facts STRAIGHT!
> No pun intended just defending what you wrote cause it aint true! SO IN REALITY my winner was bred off birds that WON against TENS of thousands in HOLLAND and they can breed winners here even though no where in the USA are their that many birds to WIN against in one loft races!


Mel - you are going to try the MDPR next ?

You might have more intelligent birds than Victor, and beat Hutchins and Ganus in the TOC. Marketing - average, Sales Pitch - ?


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

anil_pigeon said:


> Mel - you are going to try the MDPR next ?
> 
> You might have more intelligent birds than Victor, and beat Hutchins and Ganus in the TOC. Marketing - average, Sales Pitch - ?


whats MDPR and TOC stand for?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Million Dollar Pigeon Race... So Africa TOC ?
Dave


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> Million Dollar Pigeon Race... So Africa TOC ?
> Dave


well Million dollar race we would love to enter,,, maybe after we win the Americas International


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Once again a post getting out of hand. Seems like competition brings out the best in everyone. Love the way fanciers try and discount the achievements of others. Good job Melsloft. Not everyone has won a money race, despite its size. In the states 500 in a race is a good size race. 300 birds seems to be the standard. The GHC has more birds in a race on a Wednesday than most one loft races start with.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

In my opinion we don't have statistical data to make proper conclusions on who is the best stud. And if we have that data how would we define or rate the performances. The word "Best" is very vague.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

RodSD said:


> In my opinion we don't have statistical data to make proper conclusions on who is the best stud. And if we have that data how would we define or rate the performances. The word "Best" is very vague.


An intelligent answer... why then would a pigeon merchant be so bold to claim "Best stud in the USA"?

And do the stated results really warrant the statement "Best Stud" ...


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

anil_pigeon said:


> An intelligent answer... why then would a pigeon merchant be so bold to claim "Best stud in the USA"?
> 
> And do the stated results really warrant the statement "Best Stud" ...


That's similar to this statement, "Best breeding stud perhaps ever to come to the U.S."


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## RedDragon (May 2, 2021)

[QUOTE


Melsloft said:


> Pro I am a novice dude,, this is my 3rd year breeding ,,, just got back actually after a 20 year lapse from when I was a kid in the Bronx! Yes Pro MIS-MARKETING!! You can look at all my records on each race,, we only enter a handful of birds not like MOST,,, if you think it matters that much against how many one loft birds a winner wins against ,,think again!!!! cause our "TRIPLE XXX" won over $21K against 8 birds at the FINAL race in Tournament of Champions! AFTER a SMASH set of races! a winner is a winner no matter how you look at it! I know U like to talk the talk but so can I


So after 10 years who is the best now Triple XXX, SUREBET or KANNIBAL? 

="Melsloft, post: 541262, member: 7641"]
SUREBET and KANNIBAL I would really question these two just how GREAT are they truely???,, first does everyone really want to be a follower? second there are bloodlines that are MORE impressive than these two that have bred HUNDREDS of winners not just in USA or parts of a country but WORLD WIDE that makes these 2 look like beginners,,,, marketing is a GREAT tool those with MONEY can really take advantage of this tool,,, the old saying it takes money to make money has never more true! I dont mean to knock these 2 GREAT bloodlines but I see lots of MISS marketing on both ends! CASE point the latest you tube video with Victor saying what really makes a smart pigoen is the way his PET dtr off SUREBET is sooo smart because she will come to his shoulder???? If you think thats what separates SMART pigeons then I have a problem with that! I agree with Warren on this one anyone eants to see what he or she can fly best buy a dz or two off each bloodline and put thme through ur course same time! but stop the BS on the nonsense! its a FREE country everyone can say what they want
[/QUOTE]


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## RedDragon (May 2, 2021)

So after 10 years who is the best now Triple XXX, SUREBET or KANNIBAL?


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