# Confused about my pigeon's gender and "needs"



## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

By fate's unknown ways, my apartment has been shared with a rescue baby pigeon for about 3 months. The baby is baby no more, and lately he's been displaying some behaviour that makes me think he's into the market for a wife or husband.

I can't tell the gender of my pigeon. I generally believe it to be a male since it coos a lot (and by a lot I mean a LOT), struts and dances with tail fanning and neck swelling. It's also somewhat aggressive and actively trying to pick a fight with me or my husband all day long. A while ago I was told poking it is stressing it, so I started avoiding doing that - and as a result it became really close to my husband, who was giving into the "play" requests. While there's a lot of pecking and bossing us around, it's also a pretty affectionate bird and will preen both me and my husband at length.

Recently it's taken a new habit: it would come at my feet, sit down and start making some kind of moaning sounds. If I look at it, it would start cooing and dancing, but today it just crouched down and seemed to enjoy a lot being petted on the back...so...isn't this female behaviour? It spends a lot of time with my husband too, but didn't notice the moaning at him. 

I've been away from home and it's been alone with my husband for a week: since I came back, it changed its sleeping spot to a chair near my bed. It still goes to sleep on its usual window sill if I'm working late, but as soon as I get into the bedroom, it starts cooing and dancing, and moves to the chair next to my bed, performing a series of steps with cooing and dancing.

My question is how unhappy will it be without a mate of his own species? Is there anything I should do or avoid? I'm considering getting another pigeon, but not knowing the gender for sure makes this complicated. I looked for topics on establishing the gender - sadly I don't have any DNA testing facility around - deffo not in my area, I heard there might be something in the capital, but at pretty steep prices as they are dedicated to pedigree stuff. the pendulum thing says it's a male. Its middle finger is longer than the rest.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Sounds like a female who is asking to breed with you. Would avoid petting the birds back as that is a mating gesture. If you want him or her to bond with you, and you are the birds flock, that is ok. Most pigeons love having a pigeon friend. If you get a second pigeon they bond with the other pigeon and will not be as friendly with you. Would get a female fropiend because that way you can make sure they wont fight. But the only sure way to tell gender without a dna test is tge presence of eggs.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

If I get another female and it turns out mine is also a female, will they be friends?
I don't want to breed them, technically I never wanted a pigeon pet - but this is a rescue and I'm fairly sure it's bonded to us (either way it's friendly to most people, which would not bode well for it if released). Regarding the attention, I'm lucky it likes both my husband and me, and we can alternate spending time with it, because it demands a lot of attention. We literally can't even go to the bathroom without our feathery friend throwing a tantrum in front of the door if it's left out - and it worries me, because it's hitting itself against the door.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They are generally happier with another pigeon friend. 2 females usually get along, while 2 males usually don't. DNA tests go through the mail. Google it for where to send for info.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree, pigeons generally are happier with another friend. Two females get along. Lucy and Tracy, our girls, happily sit on their nonfertile eggs togeter. Two males will not get along. Would get a female. Would never release your bird as it is now bonded to you and dependent on people and likely would not survive if released.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I found some people in Spain that seem to be doing the DNA sexing tests - at a very reasonable price (like about 30 times less than what I had heard) - so I'll see about that maybe. If two females would get along, that would be fine too - probably better since no risk of hatchlings. 

I'd like to help another unreleasable pigeon, but I'm not entirely sure how I'd go about that. There are pigeons for sale, but they come from people that keep them in lofts and might hate indoors life. My Coil has been a baby rescue that's never really seen the open sky and I had planned to release it - but I did it too early out of fear of it getting too used to humans - and it got injured. By the time it got rid of the health issues it picked up from the "release", it would have been hard for it to not be used to us. The alternative would have been keeping it locked alone, and we didn't have the heart for that. It's a wonderful bird, and we're glad of having him with us, even if it means vacuuming 3 times more and always having tissues at hand ). 

It's cold and rainy outside now, but when spring comes, is there any safe way for it to get to spread his wings? I saw videos with people getting them outside, but won't it get spooked and fly&get lost? Would be nice to know he will someday get to fly more than a few meters.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Some people set up "fly pens" which allow the bird more space to fly around but in safety. Hopefully someone here can help with photos and info about that.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster is right in that you can build a fly pen to let them out in, that is screened in with wire. They can enjoy the fresh air and sunshine and even a bath outside but where they are safe. Letting them fly loose outside is asking for them them to get lost and starve out there. Really not worth it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, I live in a block of flats at 8th floor, so I don't have anywhere I could build a pen. I guess that means Coil will have to be ok with flying around the apartment, which is @100 sqm, so not really small, just..regular human height .


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Coil should be just fine. If you want to check out pigeon dapers, i know some people use them. We just used towels.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She is safer kept inside.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

She seems to be doing the moaning thing more. How should I deal with it best - ignore it, do anything about it?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Get a companion.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'll see about a companion. First I'll try to poke around if anybody knows of an unreleasable pigeon that needs a home. I'm a bit worried that nobody will know the gender of them, and I'll run into the risk of getting another male (that goes for buying one too).

Another reason I'm worried: last night, when I went to sleep, it started the moaning thing again. It's also the first time Coil went by himself to sleep in the new place on the chair near my bed (so far he either stayed up late with me or went to the window sill and moved to the chair when I came). I ignored him, so he hopped on the bed and started pecking me and cooing. So I thought to introduce him to a plushie bird. He literally demolished it, forgot about pecking my hand and everything and pounded the plushie into the bed. Went for the eyes. Curiously, this morning when I put the plushie on the floor, he got spooked and avoided it like it was the plague. So..I hope he's not gonna try to beat up another bird.

I'm still inclined to call him a "he". It's really hard to believe it's a hen with the amount of cooing, strutting, neck swelling and tail dragging he does around the house. If its a hen, it's a very bossy one.

Do both genders build the nest? So far I've seen no intention of making one.


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## greywing (Jan 21, 2017)

It sounds to me like you have a cock. Most hens do not strut and coo and bow, nor do they wrestle as much. The “moaning” sound you hear is probably nest calling (look that up on YouTube), which they do to get their mate’s attention and to call them over to a good nesting spot. Normally the hen selects a nest spot, then the cock brings nesting materials to her and she builds most of the nest. 

I don’t agree that pigeons are *always* happier with other pigeons; I have several, and one of them considers me her mate and ignores other pigeons. She only wants my company. Pigeons can be happy with a human mate, BUT it’s a lot of work and you need to spend time learning their language and understanding their needs. They can learn to understand words, too, so you can communicate well with them if you put time into it. 

Also, if he was raised without other pigeons around, he won’t be that good at understanding pigeon social behavior for a while. That’s fine, but it might confuse a new bird at first, and he might be defensive of you and of his territory for a while.


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## dj19988 (Jul 14, 2017)

Try this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2kbalOOfkc it worked for all of my pigeons 100%


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

My Coil does something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnPhXC9C2f0 - only a fair bit louder. He's a champion coo-er, starts singing as soon as I look in his direction or for no reason at all. I think if all pigeons sang as much, the town would be in constant clamoring. He has different kinds of coos, some more angry sounding, some more excited sounding. He does demand a lot of attention. If not given attention or talked to in a more stern manner (usually after he bites a bit too hard), he will start jumping and flying in small circles on the floor, making a lot of wing noise. If he's still ignored, he goes to sit alone on his window sill in a "you're not talking to me?? Fine, I'M NOT TALKING TO YOU" attitude.

I got it from some friends that found it fallen on the ground. It was a baby, I think @3 weeks old from the amount of feathers it had. It ate on its own, but did not fly. I kept it for 3 weeks and then tried to release him, so he spent a couple of hours with the flock in the park, before I recovered it injured (I don't know if it was another pigeon that injured him, but when I recovered it, there was about half a pigeon left only a few meters away from where he was sitting, so I suspect a larger animal attack). That is the only time he's been with other pigeons, but otherwise he's only been around humans. When I went to the vet, they had another pigeon in a cage for treatment (apparently some people find it funny to pluck their tails) - when the other pigeon saw Coil, it started climbing the cage and being very agitated. Coil didn't react at all, even though he was free on my shoulder and could have flown anywhere in the room. 

@dj19988 - I saw that video before, and according to that method my Coil is a male.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Video reminds me of the wing tipping, head nodding, and cooing our female Phoebe used to do.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

The first video's owner claimed it was a "he", but I found similar behaviour in videos with hens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozBcZiATAHg. 

Coil is extending his range of "nest calling" - today he also went in the bedroom where he usually sleeps and did same. Later I had to lock him out of the office because while he usually is well behaved when I have meetings, today he jumped in my lap and started cooing his heart out. He's doing the moaning less if I just cuddle him for a few minutes. For example, he came to my feet and started his sounds a but earlier, I picked him up, he preened my hand a bit and is now happily napping on my knee.

I'll make some recordings when I have the occasion.

Edit: How did you deal with Phoebe doing it?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We just gave her tons of attention and avoided ever petting her back as our vet cued us that we were giving her a sexual comeon and we were embarrassed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'd say she's a female. Give me a male any day. Some females can be waaaay over the top, and constantly demand attention from who they perceive as their mate. I would get another pigeon for a companion.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, sexual or not, I'm poking my brain to comprehend that birds probably see sexual behavior differently than us, and I give into offering cuddles on request. He puts his head under my coat and sticks his nose to my side. He seems happy and goes to do pigeon things after a while. If I ignore it, he will keep doing it. I assume it's getting bored, but I'm not sure what kind of activities I could offer, other that being bite target for hours. 
https://imgur.com/mrNHr7H


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hang a parakeet toy a few inches up and let it touch his/her back. We hung one above our printer. Phoebe would sit on a towel on the printer and chase it and bite the hanging toy happily. She also loved to watch tv, shows like Spongebob, Mickey Mouse club, John Souza marches, Sound of Music. We would sing and she would dance.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I tried a parakket toy, but it was utterly ignored. My Coil enjoys human fingers and toes, wrestling beings much larger than him, interspecies cuddles and occasionally boots, especially shoelaces.

A new situation has arisen: somebody in the animal adoption group I'm in on fb has found a week ago a baby pigeon - but she will be missing a lot from home soon and can't take care of it - so she asked if anybody would be willing to give the little thing shelter. Nobody replied so I figured I could try raising him and maybe gain a companion for Coil too - in the happy event that they are not both male. He will not survive on his own anyway, so I figure I'm his best bet at the moment. The baby doesn't eat on his own yet (drinks water and is trying to peck seed too, but without huge success), so it will need handfeeding. I will keep them separated, since Coil is no longer set on sleeping in the balcony - will keep the little pigeon there, until I figure out if it's safe to leave them together. I'm afraid my bird will be territorial. 

Question is, is there anything I can do to minimize risk of the little pigeon bringing some disease? I'll take him to the vet, but probably not until monday, as the guy I'm usually going to works at uni, and is not there during weekends. This is the baby: https://scontent.fomr1-1.fna.fbcdn....=0c57650051e4217f9ffffabe798a1dd7&oe=5AD450FC The person that posted him said he had a nasty wound at a wing, that has been treated.

In other news, Coil brought a long dry leaf on my desk today. Seemed very proud of it. I'm making him fly to my arm (sometimes he still chooses head) to give him some exercise.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You said "i_n the happy event that they are both male_". Actually 2 males will often not get along. Better if they are opposite genders, or 2 females get along well usually.
Just keep them separate for a month before allowing them to get near each other. That gives you time to monitor the new bird and make sure that he is likely healthy. Should always do that with a new bird.
There is a good chance that your other bird could be territorial, but should adjust.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

"not both males" - yes, I understood that two males will most likely fight - makes sense too, after all, he even fights us, if only to prove a point.

I have received the pigeon baby. It is tiny, much smaller than Coil was. For now it's in Coil's transport box, which he always ignored, in a nice towel nest. He seems the owner of a set of healthy lungs, as he screeches quite vigorously. It's rather difficult to feed him, although he seems very willing to be fed, he just looks for the natural way, which I'm lacking. It tries to peck seed, but doesn't manage to grab any. My Coil was very curious about the new bird, but I didn't allow him near the chick, was afraid he will bite. The chick reacts very strongly to both me and Coil. It flaps its wings wildly, screeches, and tries to go through the bars to reach us. I think I fed him enough, so it shouldn't be hungry, would that be fear? Coil keeps going to peer in the box, which throws the chick into a frenzy. Coil only looks confused. Is it afraid or thinks its his parents? 

The chick is still in the phase that would mostly spend its time in the nest anyway, so I don't think keeping it caged will be an issue. They will stay separated for a month.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sounds as though he is acting hungry. He may think your bird is going to feed him. 
How much did you feed him? How are you feeding?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is the easiet and most naturaL way to feed.

Cut off syringe method
http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/...j&DuvFeedg.htm

From another thread:

HOW MUCH TO FEED
Cynthia Roberts


Cut the tip off a feeding syringe.
The syringe size varies with the age of the pigeon.
Start with a 5ml syringe.
Feed 1cc of very thin formula (eg Kaytee Exact) using 1 part formula to 5 parts water.
Feed 1cc every 2 hours at days 1 - 2
3cc every 3 hours for days 3-4
10-11cc every 5 hours days 5-7, thickening the formula every time.
By day 20 they should be taking 30-40 ml 3 times a day from a 60ml syringe.
Quantities are guidelines only. Crop sizes vary so feed carefully stopping to let the pigeon breathe and to check how [full the crop is.]

Cushiony crop
After feeding, the crop should feel soft and cushiony.
Do not overfeed or crop will stretch and sag forming a fold that traps food in it.
__________________


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Here's the little screecher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd0WkU4rtVU&feature=youtu.be

How many times do I have to feed it per day? Any reasonable quantity of seed I should look to give to him? Any seed I shouldn't give him from the regular mix?

Edit: you read my mind. I am not sure I will find special pigeon formulas here, was a bit of an issue to find even pigeon seed, but I'll check.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Sounds as though he is acting hungry. He may think your bird is going to feed him.
> How much did you feed him? How are you feeding?


I can feel the seed in its crop, it's not tightly packed but feels kinda like a pillow. The woman that brought it to me and myself fed him seed from my pigeon's mix, avoiding the larger ones like corn or peas (unless there were smaller bits of it). The chick is very eager to eat, keeps pushing its head into my hand, and stretches towards Coil. It looked very hungry when she brought it over, so we fed him, especially so I can see how she's doing it. She said she fed him with moist bread and wheat the week it's been with her. She also said he looked like somebody dragged it with its back against a harsh wall when her daughter found it. She treated him with some antiseptic and the bruised part came off cleanly after a couple of days, with healthy skin under it. 

I'm thinking of crushing the seed into a grainy mix, and maybe mix it with something to make it more like a paste (if I don't find bird formula). When I was a child, my grandma used to mix cottage cheese with cornmeal for baby chicken, would cottage cheese work? If not, anything else I could use? (I think you call it cottage cheese, it's the stuff made directly from soured cow's milk). 

The link you posted is broken, but I'll google stuff. Should I give him some more food in a couple of hours when I go to sleep? I took him in the other room now, Coil kept going to check the crate, and I figured it could use some rest.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Does this link work?
http://urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm

I wouldn't give him cottage cheese, as pigeons cannot digest milk products.
You can get frozen peas in the market, to feed him. Just defrost and warm the amount you are going to give him under warm water. then feed them to him like this.

If you need to feed peas to a pigeon, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. This gives you more control. Reach from behind his head with one hand and grasp his beak on either side. Now use your free hand to open the beak, and put a pea in, then push it to the back of his throat and over his tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. Then do another. It gets easier with practice, and the bird also gets more used to it, and won't fight as much. If you can't handle the bird, then use the sleeve cut off a t-shirt, slip it over his head and onto his body, with his head sticking out. This will stop him from being able to fight you so much. Just don't make it tight around his crop area. It helps if you have him facing your right side if you are right handed.


Or if you want to make a slurry with the seed, then get some baby food jars of peas, and mix them with the slurry. Pick up some baby apple sauce too, and add just a bit into each feeding. It will help to keep the crop moving. The baby applesauce is better as it doesn't contain all the sugar that regular does.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Link gives a 404 error.

The advise with the baby stuff is great. That should be on the market, same with the frozen peas.
I will try finding some formula, I already looked on the net, but what I found contains bakery stuff? http://www.versele-laga.com/en-NL/orlux/Products/orlux-handmix I remember I bought some white thing to help baby finches make the transition to feeding themselves easier and it smelled strongly of cookies - I generally don't like giving sugary stuff to birds.

I have natural honey, if it's useful.

Edit: as for the feeding, I did pretty much what you described. I'm just sfraid to hurt it, as it squirms ferociously, not really to get away, but to try eat. Otherwise it's rather friendly, it snuggled at the side of my neck. Doesn't screech when held in hand, looks happy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you can get dry baby food cereal that you mix with water, you can use that, but must get the kind of cereal that contains no mild products, as some do. You could mix it with your crushed up seed. Add the applesauce to that.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Cute birds!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I found the little squab near the seed bowl I left in his box, with a tiny seed in its beak, and nothing in his crop. I crushed some seed last night before going to sleep and let them soak in water and a drop of honey over night, and fed him that this morning - managed to get about a tablespoon worth of it. 

I was worried I'll have issues with Coil during feeding, but it wasn't the case. He's terribly curious about the squab, but other than attempting to preen it or poke it lightly, he didn't do anything, even if the rascal flaps its wings wildly in his face. 

Not sure if I should separate them completely. Coil keeps going to the box to peer inside, occasionally cooing softly, and the squab goes berserk inside if it sees him. Last night I took the box in another room and Coil kept checking the place where it had been, not paying us a lot of attention, which is a first.

edit: Coil also does the "call to nest" sound sitting on the box.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would keep them separate for a month. Any new birds should be quarantined for that period of time, just to monitor and make sure they are healthy.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'll keep them separated. I keep the little one in his crate and only getting him out for feeding, but I suspect he's gonna need more space in less than a month, and I'll bar the balcony for him then. He already flaps very vigorously. I'm happy it's attempting to eat on his own, because I suck at the feeding thing. He ate about 5-6 sunflower seeds on his own and a few of the smaller ones. The sunflowers are peeled, but he seems to enjoy them as much as Coil used to.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Did you try the frozen defrosted peas? If you don't hand feed him also, then he may not get enough. Too many sunflower seeds aren't good for him as they are full of fat. He can have some, but shouldn't be eating a lot of them.


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## greywing (Jan 21, 2017)

Yes...most of their favorite seeds are the fatty ones (safflower, sunflower, peanuts), which is why it's best to provide them with a limited amount of food each day so they don't simply pick out their favorites and leave the rest!

It sounds to me like Coil is interested in the baby, not hostile, but yes, you do need to keep them separated for quarantine for a month. 

I can't remember if someone else recommended this, but I've used Kaytee exact baby bird formula for baby pigeons. It's made for parrots, but their crop milk is similar to pigeon crop milk (not actual milk, of course!).


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Yes, I do hand feed him 3-4 times a day, but at some point he squirms so much, I can't do it anymore. Easiest is to feed him large seed like peas and corn and some other darker brown stuff, but I'm worried about feeding him only large stuff, isn't it hard to digest? I do manage smaller seed too, and he is pecking small stuff himself - like millet from my zebra finches feed, which I gave to him because it also has some vitamins and minerals added. He's never eaten only sunflower, was just a few seeds yesterday, but in combination with others. Today I gave him a couple too, but no more than 5 seeds.

We made a paste from the seeds put through the blender and fed him with a syringe, combined with the seed I handfeed him. I don't think I can find Kaytee in Romania, all I found here for babies was some stuff with bakery crumbs in it. I will look in other petshops too though. During the weekend, not a lot are open. 

It's pretty complicated to keep Coil out of the room when I'm feeding the baby if I'm home alone, it will make a ruckus at the door. He either tries peering at the baby, or asks for cuddles from me from close by. The baby however, is trying to chase him - and it's pretty hilarious to see Coil's confused face. Rest of the time, the door to the room where the baby cage is is closed. 

I checked the baby as much as I could. Other than the wound on the wing which seems to have healed fine (he flaps so vigorously I think he might take off), he doesn't have any other injuries. I looked deep in its throat, and it looks pink and clean. Butt is also clean and he poops like a champion. Poops look alright too. He drinks water on his own and pecks millet on his own with fair success rate. He yells a lot and I think he misses his parents because sometimes he sounds really sad.

PS: Yes, I got frozen peas and mixed them in the paste we made.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you can't get the syringe feed into her, then just give the defrosted peas the way I explained. It's really very easy. 
I didn't suggest the Kaytee formula, because I didn't think you would have it there.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Things have been going well so far, though I think my little guy hates the cage. I assumed it wont bother him because if he's not eating himself, then he should probably still be spending most time in a nest, but maybe this is why he ended up on the streets in freezing december. As soon as I open the hatch, it hops out and starts flapping and yelling, and does not stop. I have to fold him back inside.

Regarding the feeding: I went to a larger petshop in town and they did have some kind of formula for handrearing birds, but outside the fact that it was a large bucket of it, its composition was questionable for my point of view. It had bakery products, sugars and milk products? I think the seed paste we made him might be better. We feed him @5 ml of it each meal, plus defrosted peas and whatever dry seed we managed to put into him. Now, he seems to really enjoy the defrosted peas, because he is eating them on his own, with pretty large success rate. Yesterday he attacked the plate they were on and I think he managed 10 of them in @10 seconds. They are pretty large, which makes me confused how is he able to eat them, but fail more on smaller seed. He does eat smaller seed too. 

Is it a problem that he's got so much peas in his diet? The paste is made from all seed blended and I managed to give him other seeds too, but not as much as peas, because at some point he will just squirm too much for me to stick seed up his beak. 

I tried to take some pictures of him, but he flaps so much, it's impossible to get anything else other than a blur. Coil was a lot more quiet and passive when he was young. This one, I swear sometimes he will take off. Speaking of Coil, he's still curious about the little one and keeps checking the closed door to where I'm keeping him. I'm allowing him to see the little one when I feed him, and the little one will always attempt to chase after Coil, flapping wildly.

https://youtu.be/RoPxgOFS5Mw

Thinking I'll soon have to bar the balcony somehow to make some space for the little one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you hand feed the defrosted peas, then leave some with him, they often learn to pick them up faster than seed, as they are easier to pick up. He may learn with the peas, then can move on to seed.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He is already eating the peas on his own, I mostly give them myself to him only when he stops eating them, but I don't feel his crop full enough. He's also eating millet quite well on his own and sometimes wheat. I feed him rounder corn seeds. I think he would manage to eat on his own pretty well, but he's always so agitated, and trying to yell and flap and eat at the same time.

I'm going to have them both DNA tested after the holidays (mail during Xmas gets really messy here). At least I'll be sending 2 sets of feathers to Spain. I really do hope they are not both male.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Why I think my Coil is a guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkdMAmv53_E

My little guy is eating like a champion (the peas disappear with incredible speed), and has been growing feathers. including over the spot he was injured. He's very energetic and already flies up to the table. I'm still keeping him caged, but allowing him a bit of free movement in the evening. He's constantly flapping his wings and yelling, regardless of how much he just ate. He's quiet if left alone in the room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqyVv301leM


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How much are you feeding him? In the video he is hungry and begging from the other bird. He wants to be fed.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's always begging, regardless. I give him a handful of peas 3-4 times a day (probably about 25-30 peas each meal?), 2-3 ml of the paste we made (contains ground seed, no peas because it made the paste coarse and it was getting stuck in the syringe - and he's having enough peas anyway, moistened with some water I bought for my finches that contains vitamins and minerals) - also each meal, and he eats regular seed as much as he wants in between - I'd say he eats 1-2 handfuls daily, though he also throws some around so it's a bit harder to say. He eats a lot more than Coil does. I am feeling his crop after each meal, making sure it's full. Even with full crop, he will still chase Coil and beg. He also keeps sticking his beak in our hands, even after he stops eating the peas. 

So far, our experience with him has been very different from Coil's. Coil was literally mute until he started cooing, and very passive generally. He always ate little. He started flying rather late (think he was almost 2 months old) - while this guy is already getting up the table on his own. I had to push Coil into flying exercises. I'm suspecting Coil was sick when we got him and that sapped his energy.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I counted the peas I get in a regular handful - it's more like 40-50. 

Today I noticed him trying to bathe in the water recipient he has for drinking and offered him a bowl of water. He jumped in instantly and had a bath. I recall I had to convince Coil to take a bath after reading around here that he should do that - and the first time he was quite offended by the whole thing, stuck his head into a corner and did not want to have anything to do with me. 

I decided to let the little one free in the balcony during the day, he's really active. Today they both flew on top of my computer monitor. I'm closing the door to that bedroom to keep Coil from sneaking there, which he will do if unsupervised.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Please don't put him on the balcony. If he should get away or fall, you will lose him. No reason for him to be outside.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree strongly with Jay3. Please do not put them outside. Have heard too many sad horror stories about birds flying away or falling and never returning, being picked off by predators, etc.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Oh, the balcony is closed. it's basically an extension of the room with a lot of glass, there isn't even a door between it and the room. I wouldn't dream of keeping a bird outside, it's winter!

In other news, Coil today has reacted to other pigeons for the first time. Since he's not eating the wheat seeds and most of the peas, I've put a handful of leftover seed from him on the window sill. For about 2 weeks the pigeons outside ignored it, but today they came and ate. Coil saw them and flew straight to the window. I couldn't see how they reacted, as they flew away as soon as I moved. He's never cared about other pigeons before. 

Sadly, I think he's also jealous on the little one and occasionally tries to peck him. He's not doing it always, and it never looked really bad, but I'm not letting him near the little guy when I see him being aggressive. It seems like he tries that when he sees the little guy perched on one of us - and he really likes to perch on my husband's shoulder. We will need to miss from home tomorrow, visiting family for Christmas. I'm a bit worried about the little one, thinking if I should take him with us in the cage so we can feed him, or trust he will eat enough on his own. He does eat on his own now, but he's never had to manage with only that.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Taking him with you wouldn't be good for him. They generally don't do well on car rides. Can you have someone come in to feed him? How long will you be gone?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

We were gone yesterday and today. They both stayed home, and we're back and everything is fine. I left the little one locked in my bedroom+balcony, and Coil in the rest of the apartment, both with enough food. The little one was hungry when we returned, he's now filled with paste and peas and napping happily on my husband's shoulder. Coil is also napping in his food box, dreaming, by the way he moves his head ). He tends to spend a lot of time on my husband's desk, but staring at me. He doesn't accept my husband's cuddles, only mine.

I don't see much improvement in the relationship of the little one with Coil, though truth be told they are left together very little and only with us. Coil tends to bite, though he bites everybody and everything, he's been like that since young. He seems very territorial. The little one seems scared of him. It's been 2 weeks since he's with us, and he's been with the previous person for another week. Should I keep them separated for another week or two? I don't allow them to eat or drink from the same box.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I've started to let the little one out of the cage during the day, but only under supervision, as Coil tends to pluck feathers out of him occasionally. Sometimes they just seem curious about each other, but sometimes Coil just plucks viciously. He also seems to try landing on the little one. The little one started eating a bit less desperately (we're still feeding him paste and peas) and he flies pretty well. He's stopped begging Coil for food. He's getting feathers under the wings and in all the missing spots. I do have some hopes that it's actually a female, as I noticed its butt (which is still kinda unfeathered) and it looks like a "frowny face", which I understood it's a female mark. 

Coil is proving himself a real pain in the ass though. I've always treated him with affection, so he feels loved (which he mostly returns in bites), but now I wonder if I overdid it. He moans all the time, begging for cuddles. It's been holidays so far, but soon I'll start work and I won't have as much time for him. Tonight I decided to put him to sleep earlier (he normally doesn't go to sleep until I do, and I work late) so I can get a little work done. I had to lock him in the office yesterday morning, because he was moaning at me after only 2 hours of sleep (since I came back home at 7 am). After 2 more hours he was still moaning in my chair. Are they supposed to be so obsessive? Today I got really angry on him because he managed somehow to get to the little one (who usually flies away) and pluck a feather off him: I yelled at him, and told him to go away, and after trying to poke me, he went on the tank and kept eyeing me. I kept ignoring him and occasionally giving him an angry look and he turned with his face to the wall (still eyeing me occasionally). 

Whether the little one turns out to be a female or I get him a female somehow (which is a problem, since nobody does DNA checks here and I am at a risk to get another male - which I can't afford to keep), I'm actually afraid he will just bite her. The other bird is very gentle and affectionate - and luckily it's learned that flying to either me or my husband will put it out of danger from the black beast.


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## greywing (Jan 21, 2017)

For pigeons, the pair-bond is basically the most important thing in their world. It sounds like Coil may consider you his mate. My hen Lysithea considers me her mate, and she requires a lot of attention every day, and as you said for Coil, she hoots at me for affection and demands to be petted. So...even if you get a female pigeon for Coil, it's not a guarantee that he'll bond to her. Pigeons prefer to mate for life, and if Coil was raised without other pigeons, he might not want a pigeon mate. 

It sounds to me like you're doing everything right with the baby and Coil. You just need to consider what path you want to take going forward if he and the baby don't get along (for instance, if it's a male). Of course you're already thinking about that, which is great. I'm guessing finding a new home for the baby would be difficult...


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Coil was found by some friends at @3 weeks old in an area with cats, so people were his best choice. I didn't know how to feed him (he did eat on his own but I suspect not enough) so by the time I tried to release him (3 weeks later), he was actually pretty weak. After the failed release, he was injured for 2 weeks, and then ill for some more time with some bacterial infection. He started showing affection to us by the time his leg was mended, but other than the rather bad experience in the park, he's not had contact with other pigeons (or didn't care, as the case was with some pigeons at the vet). We avoided being close to him too before the release, as we were afraid to get him too used to people.

I think I did a better job with the baby in the feeding dept, it's strong, lively, started flying way before Coil did, asks for baths (was rather hilarious today, it tried to take a bath in the plate, but it was empty), and is already getting feathers. Still, since we had to hand feed the baby, I'm even more worried that it's gotten imprinted to humans. My parents in law love them, and offered to make a little pigeon loft in their garden for both of them, but they live in another town and they are old people, not sure if they need the hassle. They might also know somebody that keeps pigeons. I'm not happy the baby got "confused" raised by humans, but he was found on the street one evening and he probably wouldn't have made it till the morning, it's been under freezing point here at night and he didn't have a lot of feathers. 

Here's some pics:https://imgur.com/a/vgTsZ we found Coil dancing on the Christmas wreath when we came home one evening, my husband with the two rascals, and both of them on the tank. Also, I released Coil from the bedroom after about 2 hours, he was sitting on the edge of my bed wide awake and started scolding me as soon as I entered the room. We settled it with some cuddles, and now he's preening happily on my knee. It feels setting him some boundaries make him a bit more manageable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y4QyrLhIJI&feature=youtu.be - low volume moaning. He can and will go a lot louder ).


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## greywing (Jan 21, 2017)

He's very cute! Lysithea does the same thing, crouching and moaning for cuddles. 

I'm not criticizing you for rescuing or imprinting them at all, I think you did great! I completely agree that people were his best choice. The only thing I meant about Coil is that he would probably take a while to adjust to other pigeons even if you get a female pigeon to bond with him. The new baby might understand more about being a pigeon, since it's been with Coil while it grows up. 

I'm glad boundary-setting seems to help Coil understand household boundaries. If it turns out they don't get along, maybe Coil can stay with you and the baby could live with another bird at your family-in-law's house?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's cute when he's on low volume, but mostly he's a lot louder. I had to lock him up today in the bedroom because of the constant hooting and demand for attention - which, on top of not letting me work, makes it weird when we have to talk on the phone with clients. It's breaking my heart to have to lock him, but I don't get 10 minutes break between hooting sessions. I was hoping getting another pigeon would make them spend time together, and instead now I have 2 that demand my attention. The little one mostly wants to sit on me, but Coil is a whole new level of attention demanding. I think I might need to put them on a schedule of time spent with us . 

For the future, if it turns out they don't get along (some days they do, some not), I'll have to find the little one a home at somebody with a loft. As well intended my parents in law are, they are old and I don't want to put the stress of having to take care of birds for me. 

As for the human bonding, I'm sad they had to trade a life of freedom and maybe love from a suitable partner for safety. I know they are safer inside, but I still see an apartment life and a bond with a human as something twisted for them. As much as I love Coil, I will never be able to be a real "wife" for him. I really want to have him get along with another pigeon, but I would also like for that pigeon to be an unreleasable one, not one taken from a loft, where they knew freedom, and possibly split from a mate.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, after needing to lock him in the bedroom twice yesterday due to the ruckus (which seemed this time to only make him more "needy") Coil tried to mate with my hand last night. It was a rather awkward moment for both of us I think. After that, he refused to sleep in his usual drawer. Usually I'd put him there when I turn off the lights and he would go to sleep, but yesterday he just hopped on the bed and settled on my arm. I put him back to his place, but he hopped back right after I settled and placed himself on the pillow next to my head this time. 4th time he seemed to get the point but I woke up again during the night with him there. We settled to letting him on the edge of the bed, so there's at least some safe distance between us. I have a light sleep and I woke up on him moving back to the bed, but I'm scared he might do that and I won't wake up, which is dangerous for him. I don't want to wake up to a squashed pigeon.

I'm not sure what to do about it. He's always slept in that room, would locking him up outside be a bad idea? His crate is occupied by the little one (which sleeps caged during the night, and is free to roam during the day) but considering getting a carrier for Coil too and trying to discipline him. 

I'm afraid I have a case of pigeon velcro. He's not even biting my hand if I poke him anymore, he's just bowing to it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Both you and the pigeons would be better off and safer if they each have their own cage and are kept in it at times when they are not being supervised. They would get used to it. It may take a while but they will adjust.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm attempting a bit of harsh love tonight with Coil. I usually put the little one to sleep a bit after 8 pm (in his cage), but Coil is used to being free, he's never been caged - and going to sleep when I do, which is after midnight. I don't currently have 2 cages, but I will try to get them used to sleeping in the livingroom.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

The harsh love treatment didn't get very far, as I couldn't handle the scratching on the door for more than an hour, but Coil has lost his mating frenzy over the past couple of days and is much more manageable. Yesterday he even decided to go to sleep in his old balcony spot on his own - I moved him in the bedroom for cold reasons, but he actually stayed there. He didn't wake me up today with petting demands, he just minded his preening. He still asks for petting but not constantly anymore.

On the other hand, I'm more and more confident in leaving him and the baby together alone. I've just watched them from a distance eating together in peace. I'm not entirely sure, but he might be courting the baby - he does the cooing sort of similar to how he coos to me, a little tail flourishing and follows the baby around. The baby is almost as good of a flier as he is - perhaps a bit less on the endurance part, but went to perch a lot higher on the furniture than Coil ever did. Coil started going to those places on the furniture too - and ask for petting there. I haven't picked a name for the baby yet, since I don't know its gender. Would two males already be aggressive to each other when one is so young? 

All in all, I'm happy to see them get along.

Edit: anybody else that owns a fish tank too? Coil is crazy about taking baths in the bucket I do water changes in. It's a pretty large bucket (20 liters) but he always insists dunking into it. Yesterday I had to eventually hold him on my palms in the bucket so he can bathe safely. He ignored the bowl I set out for him with tank water.


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Good to hear they are well now.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm fully confident to leave them alone now. They seem to spend the morning together in another room (today Coil introduced the little one to his old spot on the window sill) and all I noticed was a little nudging around. In the afternoon I become pigeon tree, with both of them sitting on my head/shoulder and preening. 

I hope the black bastard isn't trying to do inappropriate things to the little one, it's under-aged. He knows that, right?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Coil's been very busy piling dried leaves in a rattan box I put under the chair in my bedroom (he was just piling them on the floor before). He's rather hilarious how determined he picks them up and carries them to the bedroom. Not entirely sure who's he thinking will do anything in that nest. He spends most of the day with the little one, but at night still hits on my hand and tries to sleep on it. He's stopped moaning and asking for petting and is back to his usual biting self.


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Nest building is always fun to watch for me.
Amazes me how its hard wired into pigeons. 
Nice to hear that they seem to be getting along.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

They are now spending most of their time together, and I even get them to sleep earlier, because they often stay in my bedroom as it gets dark. Coil never accepted willingly to sleep alone there. I think there is courting going on, only it's a bit one sided, as the little one seems generally uninterested, and I noticed her occasionally wing slapping him when he gets too close (although she won't stay somewhere alone for ex, she will come where Coil is too). There's also still some petting begging going on, but a lot less. They both come to sit on my shoulder/head, often competing for the spot - which earned me a few minor scratches.

The little one is a lot less aggressive than Coil (I trust her near my face without a fear, she's at that sweet stage where they preen your face - Coil had it too, but nowadays I wouldn't trust the beast). I decided to let her sleep too in my bedroom, with Coil, and the first day I woke up with her nuzzling my hand - which was very cute. She likes to bathe more than Coil too. 

If they were both males, would things already be more aggressive between them? All I see is Coil following the little one around, doing his cooing and dancing (the one with tail dragging). Yesterday I saw him trying to preen her wing. Or at another time, she was sitting on the chair back in my bedroom, and he was moaning on the chair, nodding.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I just noticed my little pigeon preening Coil's head. It's been going on for a bit, and Coil sounds rather happy.

I'm concerned that the little pigeon is a bit too young though. She's probably @2 months, if even.
https://i.imgur.com/ZdtkYSt.jpg


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I think there is no need for me to DNA test my pigeons anymore, they clearly behave like a couple and I saw mating attempts (I'm saying attempts because, laugh at me, I got embarrassed and turned my back to them as soon as I saw Coil getting on her back). 

I'm worried the little one is too young though. She's been at my place for a month and a bit, but when I got her she was probably less than a month old, so less than 2 months in total. She's obviously a lot smaller than Coil and I'm afraid of him trying to push her too much. 

She's got a different personality: quite shy and skittish, she will run from me occasionally, although other times she flies to me, especially to get away from Coil. I'm not sure about adult pigeons voices, but she kept her baby voice so far, a lot higher pitched and delicate. She's a lot less vocal than Coil, but when she talks, she sounds like little bells. I hear her in the morning, when they wake up, she seems to be saying something to him. She's been eating on her own for a while, but in the evening she still expects her defrosted peas from my hand and eats them happily. If I delay, she will nuzzle my hand.

They spend most of the day together in my bedroom - a lot of time just nestled in my bed and kissing, occasionally taking trips to the office, and evening catches them there (in the bedroom), so they take a nap as soon as it gets dark. They do wake up and come to the office if they hear us, then go to sleep on their own at some point. Coil's late nights are over. They will wake up again when I go to sleep, and for a couple of nights I had issues with getting them to sleep in safe places, as they both wanted the bed headboard, but didn't want to share it, which led to either one or the other deciding to sleep on my shoulder - which is not a safe place to be. The last couple of nights I discovered they will be sharing the headboard if they both have some clothes under their feet and things have been sorted since.

There were some cute things in the morning too the last couple of days: Coil, being the weird pervert that he is, is still bowing and nest calling to me too, especially in the morning, when I wake up and I'm still in my bedroom (even if he probably got a stiff neck from all the bowing he does to her). Yesterday, seeing the little chick was away eating and he was moaning his heart out, I went to pet his head: she flew right at me, and gently pushed my hand away, then buggered off again. I was curious if she did that accidentally, so I tried again and she did the same thing. 

Next day, the asshole asked again for petting. I went to see what happens, and she flew at my hand, but instead of pushing it away, she nuzzled it a little, and hopped on my arm, then on my head, where she started sort of pulling on my braids. Coil, as the confused individual he is, brought me a straw later. 

I'm thinking I should look into getting fake eggs, though the idea of stealing their eggs is repugnant - but whatever babies they might have will be as unreleasable as they are, and I can't keep more pigeons in an apartment. To my luck, I did find a store in Romania that seems to be selling pigeon stuff online, so I can order them there to have them just in case. If the need arises, how do I do the switch? I admit I will probably not have the heart to do it, and ask my husband for it. This is one of the reasons why I'm still thinking a loft would be better for my pigeons, even if I love them dearly and I would miss them a lot.


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