# Nest Destroyed - Human or Animal Vandalism?



## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Hi, I live in a 24-unit building in San Francisco with a free-standing carport behind the building. The back and sides of the carport are built up, and there is a narrow ledge about 7 feet above the ground at the back below the roof. Six cars park under the roof, side by side (there are no walls separating the cars). Last fall a pigeon started a nest there, so one of the tenants that parks back there just put water bottles up on the ledge in front of his car to prevent the pigeon from nesting there.

Recently a pigeon set up a nest on the ledge and began nesting a couple of cars over, between and behind two cars. I park in that area but not under that carport, and I would see the pigeon sitting on the nest every time I went out to my car. (Full disclosure: I throw seed up on the carport roof every night after dark and the neighborhood pigeons come to eat very early in the morning - my apartment overlooks the carport roof and I can see them out there.)

During the day, since I knew she was incubating one or more eggs, I would call to the pigeon and she would leave her nest and fly up and I'd give her a bit of seed to eat.

This has been going on for at least three weeks. I've gotten to the point where I go and look for her on her nest every time I go out there.

So, this morning - I didn't see her on the ledge, and when I looked closer I didn't see the nest either. To my horror, I found all the twigs from the nest, along with two shattered eggs, on the ground directly below the ledge. The eggs were empty, but I could see spilled liquid among the twigs, and when I looked inside I could see reddish fluid on the inside wall of the eggs, and some yellowish stuff.

I don't know how far along the eggs were - after three weeks, you'd expect some embryos, right? I'm wondering whether the nest was attacked by a racoon (hard to get up there though, solid concrete walls below the ledge) or by a crow (I saw one on the carport roof yesterday). Or by a human.

It seemed to me though that whoever/whatever did this, swept ALL the twigs from the nest onto the ground, and if a racoon or crow or some other animal had done this - their purpose would have been to eat the eggs, right? They wouldn't have just dumped everything on the ground.

I had been worried about the babies being born on a fairly narrow ledge (maybe 6" wide) and was planning to babyproof the ledge by building up a rim so they couldn't fall out when they got older.

Guess I don't have to worry about that anymore.

Now my only problem is - whose car to key, if a human did this.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

One good thing is the eggs were emtpy. It would have been terrible if they had embryos in them. Pigeon eggs hatch at about 18 days, so those eggs were definately infertile. 
It could be that pigeon mama got enough on sitting on the eggs, realizing they weren't gonna hatch and just left and then maybe another bird tried to get the eggs, destroying the nest in the process.
I would not let any pigeons nest at that spot anymore as it is vulnerable to predators. So, if you see a pigeon build another nest in that area, try to descurage her from doing so. They will get the hint and look for another place to nest, hopefully a safer place.

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Reti,

So you think, based on my description, that they were infertile? I'm relieved. I'm just curious as to whether maybe there were embryos in there and they got eaten?

I hope not, I prefer to think no little babies got murdered :-( I have to tell you, watching that mommy (or daddy?) sit on those eggs 23.5 hours a day was really inspirational. What a wonderful devoted parent.

Just to be clear, that ledge was deep inside the carport under the roof. 20 feet back. But I guess motivated predators will find a way?

I am going to pigeon-proof that ledge. It isn't a suitable place for having babies - the ledge is too narrow, and it's too visible to humans.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I would guess either what Reti said - a mom who just gave up sitting....or humans, actually. Sorry to hear this. I guess I would dissuade them from nesting in that location. If the latter, the mom probably spooked and went off. She may be back in a few days or so. If the former, then she may be off to better digs. I would agree that if she sat them for this long and all you saw was what you described, they were likely duds which she abandoned.

...could have been worse...but not a nice thing to find, nonethelesss.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Jaye - and how are you? I remember you from when I was more active on the forum.

Anyway, I have to help these little pidgies pick better nesting spots. So I will make it Job #1 to put some sort of mesh up there on the ledge so they can't even try to nest there anymore.

And I'll keep feeding them cuz I've been doing it for a couple of years now!


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

PS The humans around my building are all selfish yuppies. Two years ago a baby got abandoned on a fire escape - I found him on the ground starving with a gash on his neck. Took him to WildCare where they put him down because they said he had trich plus the gash was very deep (not sure I believe that). Anyway I went and knocked on the door of the person who lived in the apartment on the fire escape, and when I told her I had found the baby on the ground and had taken him to WildCare, she said she was glad he was gone and asked why I hadn't just thrown him in the garbage. I replied, shocked, that he had been alive, and she shrugged and said "well, he would have died soon enough." What a pig she was. I always suspected her of hitting him. He was an orphan because someone ran over one of his parents in the driveway and left the body there bleeding. I happened to drive in and stop because I didn't want to drive over the body. Then I found blood on a neighbor's bumper. It's a longer story than that but it just brings up bad memories... I have to balance helping them, with encouraging them to hang around here because if they actually nest, people start to complain and it could turn out badly for the pigeons.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Oh crap! The other shoe just dropped. Tonight I took my dog out to the carport area for her last pee run of the night (safer than going out onto the street, and I always wash it down with a bucket). We have a garbage recess off the driveway, with a locked gate, but there are bars at the top. In the recess is a garage chute that serves the whole building, with a huge rectangular bin at the bottom, made of metal. And a couple of recycling bins. So anyway, for the past couple of weeks when I have gone in there to drop off garbage or recycling, about half the time a pigeon has flown out when I went in. There are open bars at the top so that's how it gets in when the gate is closed, I guess. It always startles me when it flies out but I thought the pigeon was in there looking for food.

Tonight (4 am) I went to throw away the dog poop bag, and I saw the pigeon in there, lying on top of the garbage chute lid, toward the back. I talked to him gently, didn't want to startle him, then tossed the poop bag. Anyway as I was standing there he got up and flew out the gate that I was holding open.

And...what did I see on top of the garbage chute? a nest with two eggs.

Crap. This is simply not going to work as a place to raise babies. It's a HORRIBLE location. People go in there all the time to toss garbage, and then the garbage people come with their trucks and bang and crash around. And we have cleaning people who come once a week and clean in there. It's a very tiny area and the nest is right out at about chest height, visible to anybody who goes in there.

The nest has to be moved. But will they abandon it if I move it, assuming I could find a place to put it? I have no idea how far along the eggs are but I could swear I have seen pigeons in there for at least two or three weeks if not SEVERAL weeks..maybe part of that time they were building the nest but still...

What should I do? I do not want to break the eggs open if they are viable. But if I don't deal with this, somebody with a lot less compassion is going to do something mean.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

PS I had been meaning to pigeon-proof the garbage recess by putting up some wire over the open bars. Obviously I won't do that now, until I resolve the issue with the nest. But once it's resolved, I can at least prevent pigeons from going in there and nesting again.

I fear that by feeding the pigeons for the past two years I have encouraged them to nest around my building and have actually created this problem myself.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Now that doesn't sound good at all. Not sure what you can do about it now, if the eggs are fertile the eggs and future babies are not safe. I don't see how you could keep them safe for the next several weeks.
But first you can see if the eggs are fertile by candling them. Get a flashlight and take the eggs somewhere to a dark location and hold the flashlight so it shines through the egg. I will post a link where you can compare and see if there is an embryo in them. 
If they are not fertile you can toss them and nest proof the area.
If they are fertile, we will have to come up with some ideas to keep them safe.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

http://shilala.homestead.com/candling.html

Here is a link with pics of fertile and unfertile eggs.

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Reti, I will go and do that today. The eggs are very accessible, I can walk right in and pick them up.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

OK, I looked at the eggs. I was able to see clearly into them with a backlight from an LED flashlight. I was really surprised at how warm the eggs were - almost hot! The parent had just left them, I had to entice/shoo him/her out.

Both eggs have what appear to be little embryos in them. They are tiny, smaller than the "6 days" embryos on the link you sent to me.

One egg has a big dark circle at the round end. The other end is where the peep is - there is a network of veins attached to the shell and he is in the middle of that network.

The other egg looks normal, as far as I can tell.

If I relocated this nest and eggs nearby, would the parent follow and incubate them? I don't know where that would be... there is an alley off the driveway that has wire mesh at one end and a gate at the other - NOBODY ever goes in there and only one person could even see in there when he's parking because his car is lined up with that alleyway, but he would not explore it and would probably not even notice the bird. Even the maintenance people don't clean there. Problem is, the nest would be on the ground and vulnerable to predators such as racoons, and cats, although we don't have too many free-roaming critters around here, we do have some.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Update - I had a shallow wicker basket shaped like a nest, and I snuck in and transferred the eggs and nest materials into that, then placed it where the nest had been. 5 minutes later the parent was back and sitting in the basket. I figure if/when I go to transfer it, the parent will be familiar with the basket.

The location I selected to move the nest to is actually pretty ideal. There are two entryways -one is completely sealed with large gauge wire mesh (too small for a bird to get through). The other has a rusting metal gate with mesh over it, that opens (no knob, no lock). Above that gate is more wide-gauge wire mesh, about 7 feet up. I could easily cut this and nobody would know or care, and that would provide a great way in for the parent, while protecting the babies from cats and racoons.

Whenever I go in to the garbage and the parent flies out, he goes to the fire escape directly above this gate, so if I moved the nest in there, he could see me do it.

However, I'm not sure whether the parent would go in there and continue to take care of the babies - and don't they have to be kept warm ALL the time? I think I read on this forum, the eggs are only safe for 30 minutes without a warm bum on top of them, during the incubation period.

What i'm thinking is, if we could get them through incubation to the point where the babies were born, then if I moved them after they were born, they would squeak and the parents would follow the sound of the babies' voices?

I don't know - I need advice on that!

Of course, during the incubation period they would be at risk of being disturbed by people, but on second thought I know none of the lazy yuppies in the building would care (and now that they're in the basket, it's not as glaringly obvious that this is indeed a nest). The cleaning people MIGHT but I doubt it. And the garbage people just use the rake to clean out the bin, then they leave. The biggest risk is the cleaning people and the possibility that the rake would be dumped on top of the nest...


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## malfunctional (Jan 27, 2009)

Sounds like they have managed to survive there for a couple of weeks without any trouble. They might be okay. I moved the nests on my balcony around a little when my pigeons were there. They were thoroughly confused, so I'd be careful relocating them. anywy hopefully there are better experts on the site. Good luck


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I doubt they will go to the nest if relocated.
I tried to move a nest away from the ledge on my balcony once cause it was raining in the nest and the parents wouldn't go to nest at the new location. Then I placed it back where it was and I moved the nest every day a few inches till I got it where I wanted to to be.
Is there any way you can try to move the nest a bit each day?

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Hi Reti,

Unfortunately I cannot move it a little bit each day. It is behind a locked gate on top of the garbage chute in a small recess (maybe 10' x 6' total size). Then there is the driveway outside that recess - the driveway is probably 8 feet wide or so. The passageway that is pretty private that I could relocate the nest to, is off the driveway on the other side. The recess faces a wall of that passageway. So the parent would have to fly out, go up to the fire escape overlooking the entrance to the passageway, and fly in there. That side, where he usually flies when I scare him out of the garbage recess, has a 7' tall gate with some wire mesh nailed up over it to the top of the passageway. That wire mesh is about 2' tall by 3' wide - I started cutting through it last night and could probably finish the job and remove it tonight if nobody catches me. 

If I waited until after the baby/babies are born and moved them then - would the parents go and feed them in the new location if they heard them squeaking?


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Sorry, I see I already asked that exact question and you answered it - I didn't realize I had asked specifically about moving them AFTER they are born.

I think they will be OK as eggs but once they are born, their present location becomes extremely unsuitable.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I guess all you can do now is watch them. If they hatch then take it from there. Maybe, they won't hatch.

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

*dammit*

I heard the cleaning people on the grounds this morning and briefly considered asking them not to disturb the nest but I didn't want to call attention to it, and it has been there so long that I thought they just hadn't noticed it.

Just now I went down and peeked through the grate and didn't see the basket or nest there AT ALL. I went in to the garbage recess and found the nest and the two eggs - unbroken - at the bottom of a huge garbage bin. I gently upended it and retrieved the basket, the nest materials, and the two eggs, and put them back. 

They were quite cold, and I think they had been in the garbage for several hours. I had heard that the eggs can only survive for 30 minutes without the warmth of a parent?

I was thinking it will be several days before the cleaning people come back and that would give me time to think of something. 

They are probably dead though...

I'm going to candle the eggs (I just ran up to get my flashlight) to see if they had developed beyond where I saw them last week. The eggs felt heavier when I took them out of the garbage bin.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I think they are viable for more than 30 minutes, unless it is freezing where you live. I would be more worried if they were thrown around and moved too much.
Do another candling and see if you see any progress in their development. 

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Hi Reti,

I did try to candle them but I'm so inexperienced I wasn't sure what I was looking at. One of the eggs, with the back lighting, had what looked like a hairline crack in it - not visible and I couldn't feel it, but the milky orange glow of the shell was bisected by this pale yellow line. I could not see evidence of embryos inside although there were dark shadows but the shadows looked more like the bacterial growth I saw in one of the "not viable" photos. And whereas a few days ago I thought I saw two tiny little peanuts, I didn't see that today. I will check out the sample photos you linked to, and try to get another look tonight or tomorrow.

I went out for several hours and the parent was back on the nest just now when I returned.

We have been having a heat wave here in San Francisco so the outside temperature is quite warm for this time of year - maybe 70 degrees. The time period during which they would have been in the bin is maybe from 10 am to 3 pm - daylight hours. But that recess doesn't get any light so it's cold. And the eggs were both cold to the touch.

I'm hoping they just weren't viable. If I candle them and see that they're not, I'll take them away and crack them open. But I'll make 100% sure that I know they are not viable before I do that. Then I'll shoo mommy (or daddy) out of there and put mesh over the bars where (s)he was getting in. It's a miserable place to have babies.

Over the past two nights I had cut off the mesh over the alleyway on the other side of the driveway - this is above the metal gate - and it's right below where the parent would hang out on the fire escape whenever I scared him away from the nest. I was going to put seed in there and hope he would go in, then when the babies were born, I was going to try putting them in there in a box. it would have been perfect if he would have agreed to the change of scenery!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It is very difficult to make them accept any changes in their nest location. Sometimes when I clean the baskets of my birds who are sitting on dummy eggs they refuse to go back and sit on them. 
But keep on candling those eggs until you're sure they are they not viable. If not, just close up that location, like you mentioned. It is definately not a good place to have babies, it would probably end up in disaster.

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I think this story is drawing to a close. I went out tonight and found one egg broken on the ground in the garbage recess, and the pigeon sitting on the other egg. He flew off when I approached so I candled the remaining egg and I doubt it's viable. Holding it on its side, it's like it's half full of fluid and the top is empty but I do not see a viable embryo - I see *something* but it should be much bigger at this stage. 

Here are photos of the scene, on facebook. 

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=136734&id=1263606383&l=d27f87902d

Anybody can view them, it's a public album. I wrote comments under each photo to give you the context.

I am wondering how the second egg got smashed on the ground. Although I am paranoid about human meanness, in this case I really doubt it was a human. Nobody cares enough except the maintenance people, they are not due to come back for a few days and if they did remove anything, they would remove the whole nest.

The smashed egg pieces were stuck to the ground so it had been broken for quite a while. I put on rubber gloves and looked through it - I didn't see anything like a fully formed embryo or even a partial one. 

Is it possible that the bird itself kicked the egg out of the nest? The basket I put it in would prevent it from rolling out on its own. Or some predatory bird? But I would really doubt that ... the access through the bars is not big enough for a crow - do pigeons eat each other's eggs?

Sigh. I think I'll kick the bird out in a day or two, leave a nice nosh of seeds for him outside. I put some in tonight right next to the nest so he could eat because he doesn't seem to want to leave the nest even to forage for food and I doubt he's been getting enough food these past couple of weeks because I only put food out once a day on the carport roof and he may not be getting any cuz the other birds are pretty fast eaters. 

Then I'll put mesh up over the grate so he can't nest there again.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Very likely the eggs weren't viable or the embryos died early. Good thing there was no embryo in the broken egg, that would have been a sad sight. I looked at the pics and sure that is not an appropriate place to raise pigeon babies.
Thank you so much for all you're doing for those birds.
I think you're right, best to remove the whole nest and close up the location so there won't be any more nests.

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Well, it's over. I was afraid the cleaning people would come today and see the nest, so I went down and shooed away the parent and took the nest. I put on gloves and put the egg inside a plastic produce bag and gave it a crack with a spackling knife and it fell open. It was full of nothing but incredibly rotten stinky yellow fluid. I don't know whether there had been a viable embryo in there before the cleaning people threw it away for several hours but there was absolutely no sign of it.

I put the bag with the egg in it back in the nest and put the nest back for a half hour so he could see there was nothing to incubate. Now I'm going to go down and throw it out before the cleaning people get here...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You did the best you could for this family. I hope they pic a better location for their nest next time.
Thank you for all you did for them.

Reti


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Update - the original nesters (not in the garbage recess but under the carport roof) started nesting again. Today I shooed the parent off the nest and looked, and there were two very small very warm eggs. I took the eggs and broke them open (nothing inside but yellow yolk). I felt horrible but I knew that if I didn't do it, the person who parked there would do it and possibly kill the babies in the eggs when they were much bigger. It simply isn't a suitable location for nesting at all. Even worse, the pigeons have been hanging out on the tops of two of the cars closest to the nest location, and have been pooping on the car roofs.

I have been meaning to get some wire mesh and staple it up so they can no longer nest there but I've been super busy and unable to get to it.

Anyway I don't know if this was the right thing to do or not, but I put the broken eggs back in the nest and left for a couple of hours. When I came back there was no bird on the nest but a few recesses over (basically, there are 2x4's running vertically from the ledge up to the roof, creating these 2' wide recesses) ... there were two birds, and one of them had eggshell stuck to his butt feathers. I felt horrible knowing that he or she had come back and tried to sit on the nest again and sat in the mess I left.

In future, if I have to take away new eggs (and I hope they will just not nest around here again)...should I just destroy them and not put them back?

I don't want to get into the business of destroying pigeon eggs, but these were very small and I thought they had just been laid (I checked the nest ledge a few days ago and there was nothing there), and I knew that they would not follow the eggs if I tried to relocate them, so I felt I had to do it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I guess, until you put the mesh up it's best to destroy the nests as soon as they start building them, hopefully they move on to a better location. I feel bad for the parents too but it's better than babies being killed and I am sure the car owners won't be happy if the birds poop on their cars. 

Reti


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

As Reti says, better to get rid of nests as soon as they start.
It really doesnt sound a good place for them to be, and they will move or find somewhere else.
It would be good if you could block the area, bird poop on cars if left for any time does destroy the protective coat & then the paint starts to crack with the weather. Also when dried, most folk just try and wipe it off, which again just scratches it and the owner gets mad at the birds (own stupidity) so not a good place for them to be.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

please stop breaking eggs and putting them back in nests.. once they are broken it is over..just throw them in the garbage.. if you get eggs again just leave them on the lawn for other birds to eat... not sure why you would put broken eggs back in a nest you did not want there to being with.


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