# Genetic question



## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

For example, if somebody crosses one Jienense Pouter to a German beauty to obtain some of the character of the GB, I understand that after the F3 you can consider the results as a pure bred, is true or false???

The goal is to have beautiful eyes as the GB.

What do you do first?

What do you prefer to use, a Jienense hen and GB cock?

I know the firsts babies will be just a Jienense and GB cross, But after the F3 can we say the babies are pure Jienense or not?

I am just curious 

Thanks.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

You cannot consider any filial generation (F1, F2, F3 ...) to be pure bred, since you are not re-enforcing the genes of either the parental races. There is no hard and fast rule that is accepted and it greatly depends on the breed as well as the clubs involved. I will be breeding 3rd generation back-crosses in my archangel homer project this season, and I am quite sure that I will not be able to call these birds 'pure bred'. Until I have proven that they perform on a par with pure-bred birds, they will still be called crossbreeds. For show birds, the requirements are a little less strict, since the judgement of the breed will be based purely on form and type.

A bit more on the terminology of crosses (or at least how I understand it):
P - the parental generation (the two strains/breeds being crossed)

Filial generations:
F1 - the first filial generation (P x P) 
F2 - the second filial generation (F1 x F1)
F3 - the third filial generation (F2 x F2) 

Back-crosses of the first filial generation
First generation back-cross (F1 x P)
Second generation back-cross ((F1 x P) x P)
Third generation back-cross (((F1 x P) x P) x P)

As you can see, the back-cross generations are bred back to the required breed multiple times. This mean the back-cross generations get more 'pure' as they go along. This kind of repeated back-cross is fine for moving dominant and sex-linked mutations to new breeds, but it gets exponentially more complex when recessive genes are moved. 

I am not familiar with the Jiennense pouter. I am also not quite sure what you mean by the beautiful eyes of the German Beauty homer. I am afraid I cannot be of much help regarding the transfer of these characteristics between the breeds.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi FIRINGO, why use a German Beauty, There lots of Pouter breeds I feel that you would be much better off using a pouter breed for this project* GEORGE


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> You cannot consider any filial generation (F1, F2, F3 ...) to be pure bred, since you are not re-enforcing the genes of either the parental races. There is no hard and fast rule that is accepted and it greatly depends on the breed as well as the clubs involved. I will be breeding 3rd generation back-crosses in my archangel homer project this season, and I am quite sure that I will not be able to call these birds 'pure bred'. Until I have proven that they perform on a par with pure-bred birds, they will still be called crossbreeds. For show birds, the requirements are a little less strict, since the judgement of the breed will be based purely on form and type.
> 
> A bit more on the terminology of crosses (or at least how I understand it):
> P - the parental generation (the two strains/breeds being crossed)
> ...


This is some good info, I had gone through it all in my head but nice to see it on paper, 
Rudolph, I am currently putting Rec red into the FB's here in NZ and as Kite and grizzle are very well locked into the gene I have managed to do what you have described as exponentially more complex but in my case due to the modifiers present the het rec reds are easyish to identify,

I have two F3's paired, Het grizzle, Both het rec red, I struggle a little with the odds of things but I am guessing 1/4 will be non grizzle, 1/4 will be recessive red, Does that mean 1/16 will be rec red non grizzle?? I used to think it would be 1/8 but am thinking that was wrong.

To the Op'er, I have found with the frillback and thief pouter crossing I am doing that you can get back to an ok specimen with 3 backcrosses but to get the bird right back to standard and also breeding back to standard I am guessing you would be looking at 6 - 10 back crosses. Remember two birds that look right for what you want will not neccesarily breed true.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

I just asking here because we have one topic about Laudinos sevillanos in the Cuban forum, and somebody say something about the jienense cross with GB, I'm not interesting is this type of cross. I'm interesting to know how the genetic works when you cross two different species to have a certain character, for example, some people use the GB to cross with the Jienense, because the eyes, head and peak of the GB is better than the Jienense. 

That cross were used to improved the eyes, peak and head of the Jienense just for show, the problem was that the Jienense lose more than gain, is a long history and to be honest I’m not an expert in this topic, I’m not a jienense breeder. So just concentrate in how the genetic works when you cross two different species.

Thanks.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Rudolph this is very interesting when you say that.
"For show birds, the requirements are a little less strict, since the judgment of the breed will be based purely on form and type".

I was read in one genetic page that the performer is more difficult to obtain than the color or phenotype.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Hello.
Evan, this is very funny, you say that you are cross, frillback and thief pouter?? 
What thief pouter do you use??
Interesting


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Sorry, I used modena to cross with valencian thief pouter to get spread, I used west of england tumbler with frillbacks to get spread, Recessive red, A better kite gene and also non grizzle. Two seperate projects, I did not word that too well though.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm sorry Evan but this is the most crazy thing that ever see, hahhahaha, Cross the big fat modenas with Valencian, I have to see the pictures, Hahahhaha


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

F2 and so on doesn't have to be inbreeding. As long as you have one bird from that original line it doesn't matter what you cross it on. You can put the F1's on pure breeds, back on the parents, whatever, and the offspring will still be F2's.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

firingo said:


> I'm sorry Evan but this is the most crazy thing that ever see, hahhahaha, Cross the big fat modenas with Valencian, I have to see the pictures, Hahahhaha


Valencian Pouter, not Figurita, thankfully LOL


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> F2 and so on doesn't have to be inbreeding. As long as you have one bird from that original line it doesn't matter what you cross it on. You can put the F1's on pure breeds, back on the parents, whatever, and the offspring will still be F2's.


These filial generation numbers were developed with classical genetics of plants, where each generation is separate, and not alive at the same time (annual plants were used).

If you put F1 to the pure breeds you do not get F2s. That is a common misconception. The only way to get the F2 generation is to breed the F1 generation (though it does not have to be inbreeding if you started by crossing two unrelated pairs to get the F1)

The F2 (F1 x F1) generation is the generation that traditionally would show the 1:2:1 or 1:3 phenotypes that is expected when studying co-dominants and recessives. These ratios will not be the same when breeding F1 x P.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I understand the sceptism, But the Valencian thief pouter standard calls for an upright, cobby bird with a straight line being able to be drawn from the feet through the top of the shoulder to the head (when standing properley). I will show you a photo of my F3 tomorrow, It is a spread, Almond and although it is not show standard valencian it is not too far off, I was comparing it to my young blue bar that got reserve at the show this year as a young bird, ( best young bird too ) and in overall size, stance and appearance to the untrained eye it would be another valencian, I can see the fine details that need perfecting but others have looked in my loft and not even picked him as a crossbreed.

To bring some balance to the conversation I will add I have an F3 hen, She is Blue spread and is quite a long way off so what I am trying to say with all this babble is that pigeons are incredibly variable in genetic expression so a lot can be done with selection

I have edited to add that Rudolphs info is incredibly accurate and factual so take note of that, I am talking from very limited experience but I am certain from what I have seen in my limited years involved with pigeons ( 5 or so ) is that once again, selection is the key, Understand the genetics and base your decisions on that but still be prepared to select out within those restrictions.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Good morning
Evan is very interesting what you say about your project. Please post some pictures.

I am Cuban, and you should know the thief pouter that we breed here in Miami in most case is for sport, not to show, with some exception, such as Laudinos, Jienenses and other Spanish pouter. That is why I see very funny cross a Modena with a Spanish pouter, this cross should not fly weld, but for show, that is anther history.
Thanks.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

firingo said:


> Good morning
> Evan is very interesting what you say about your project. Please post some pictures.
> 
> I am Cuban, and you should know the thief pouter that we breed here in Miami in most case is for sport, not to show, with some exception, such as Laudinos, Jienenses and other Spanish pouter. That is why I see very funny cross a Modena with a Spanish pouter, this cross should not fly weld, but for show, that is anther history.
> Thanks.


Good evening, Its 11:05pm here, I think my times out

Yes I know them well, I admire their looks and intelligience aswell as flying/homing ability and as for thieving I am amazed at what they can do.

And you are right, my thief pouters are not bred for flying, I have high fliers, tipplers and rollers for flying, And also race. I used to let my thiefs out at my old place and they flew well but you are right, the thiefs I have now are not flying birds. In saying that - for the purpose of adding spread to the show valencian thief pouter it is a reasonably good match, Maybe not ideal.

I do get your laughing though, For improving for thieving purpose the modena or frillback for that sake is RIDICULOUS. 

Check out my youtube page. I have a norwich cropper that is the best thieving bird I Have ever had

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEF054ydI2A

And heres my show thiefs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geKy2fnum74

there are a few more vids there too, I wil get one tomorrow of the young crosses and the new thiefs maybe, Or some pics for ya


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

rudolph.est said:


> These filial generation numbers were developed with classical genetics of plants, where each generation is separate, and not alive at the same time (annual plants were used).
> 
> If you put F1 to the pure breeds you do not get F2s. That is a common misconception. The only way to get the F2 generation is to breed the F1 generation (though it does not have to be inbreeding if you started by crossing two unrelated pairs to get the F1)
> 
> The F2 (F1 x F1) generation is the generation that traditionally would show the 1:2:1 or 1:3 phenotypes that is expected when studying co-dominants and recessives. These ratios will not be the same when breeding F1 x P.


Oh. Well I'm just going by what my biology professor told me...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I think maybe he is wrong or you misunderstood as I understood it the same as Rudolph. To get an F2 Is a different process to the one used to get a BC2


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I think you mean B2  But yes I forgot about the B's, backcrosses. But for the sake of keeping it simple I'm not changing my plans haha.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I think you mean B2  But yes I forgot about the B's, backcrosses. But for the sake of keeping it simple I'm not changing my plans haha.


Nope, I mean BC2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backcrossing


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well everytime I've seen it, it's just been a B. But it doesn't matter as long as you know what you're talking about when you see it


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I would say BC2 too. Else they think we talk vitamins or something.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> I would say BC2 too. Else they think we talk vitamins or something.


Lol - Never thought of that.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Evan I see yours pigeons on YouTube, they are nice, I never imagine that the crupper can fly like that.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Rudolph when you talk about your archangel project, is because you want to use the bronze color and incorporate to yours homers, or you want that your archangel pigeon fly like racing homer?


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Valencian Pouter, not Figurita, thankfully LOL


LOL, 
You know that some people use the fantail to cross with one Spanish pouter, (morrillero), I do that in my house, but I cross one fantail with other cross pouter, and all my friends think that the result was a morrillero pouter, that’s was funny.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey Firingo, I will load some pics of that cross now. Won't be far away.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Here ya go




























The red cropper next to the black hen is the one in the vid that gets chased by the seagull.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

firingo said:


> Rudolph when you talk about your archangel project, is because you want to use the bronze color and incorporate to yours homers, or you want that your archangel pigeon fly like racing homer?


The archangel bronze homer project ... Bringing archangel bronze to homers. I want a homer that has a proper solid bronze head and neck at least, but bronze extended to the breast and rump would be even better. It's going to take a couple of years though.

I love the color of archangels, but they are the most awful pet birds, they are flighty and scared of everything. The hens will stop brooding if you scare them off a nest by walking past too closely, and don't even think about swapping eggs or fostering newly hatched babies. It just seems they never tame.

Some of my homers will climb into my hand, even without me offering food. I like the large wattles and intelligent eyes of homers, as well as their stance and demeanor. They are just my favorite breed. I also like taking the homers out on the road and releasing them. But mostly, homers are the best breeders I know of. They will hatch or raise any egg or chick you give them. If you give them access to enough food, a pair will even raise 3 chicks if you want them to.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

firingo said:


> Evan I see yours pigeons on YouTube, they are nice, I never imagine that the crupper can fly like that.


Here he is










He blows a bit better these days, He has been retied from flying, still gets let out but has a mate so he doesn't feel the need to take off like he used to.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

rudolph.est said:


> The archangel bronze homer project ... Bringing archangel bronze to homers. I want a homer that has a proper solid bronze head and neck at least, but bronze extended to the breast and rump would be even better. It's going to take a couple of years though.
> 
> I love the color of archangels, but they are the most awful pet birds, they are flighty and scared of everything. The hens will stop brooding if you scare them off a nest by walking past too closely, and don't even think about swapping eggs or fostering newly hatched babies. It just seems they never tame.
> 
> Some of my homers will climb into my hand, even without me offering food. I like the large wattles and intelligent eyes of homers, as well as their stance and demeanor. They are just my favorite breed. I also like taking the homers out on the road and releasing them. But mostly, homers are the best breeders I know of. They will hatch or raise any egg or chick you give them. If you give them access to enough food, a pair will even raise 3 chicks if you want them to.


Rudolp, if you like wattles of the homer pigeon, check my Laudinos in my wed-page.
http://firingolaudino.wix.com/firingo#!laudinos-sevillanos


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I've looked at the Laudinos, they are beauties, though like the dragoons and barbs, some of their wattles are just too developed, I almost feel sorry for some of them. We don't have any of the Spanish breeds in SA as far as I know.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Henk69 said:


> I would say BC2 too. Else they think we talk vitamins or something.


Well BC makes me think of "Before Christ" LOL


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well BC makes me think of "Before Christ" LOL


LOL, But Surely BC1 and BC2 do not, B1 However is a vitamin.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi.
What is main different between the Gaditano pouter and the cropper??
Thanks.


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

rudolph.est said:


> I've looked at the Laudinos, they are beauties, though like the dragoons and barbs, some of their wattles are just too developed, I almost feel sorry for some of them. We don't have any of the Spanish breeds in SA as far as I know.


Hi
Thanks Rudolph, your are right many peoples that does not know about this breed asking if they are sick. hehehhe.

Spanish pouters are the most popular breed for Cubans.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

firingo said:


> Hi.
> What is main different between the Gaditano pouter and the cropper??
> Thanks.


Gaditano has a low stance and a rounder head, Norwich cropper is a tall bird with long legs, Long beak and more upright in stance. Basically it's a valencian thief in stance with a croppers size blow on it


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## firingo (Jan 6, 2012)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Gaditano has a low stance and a rounder head, Norwich cropper is a tall bird with long legs, Long beak and more upright in stance. Basically it's a valencian thief in stance with a croppers size blow on it


Wich one is more dificult to breed??


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

firingo said:


> Wich one is more dificult to breed??


I am guessing the slightly shorter beak on the Gaditano would make it more diffucult that the norwich, At the end of the day though as far as breeding for type in NZ croppers would be way easier as we have them already, There are no Gaditanos here so for me to try breed them to type would take a lot of years.


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## Cadivillellac84 (Mar 26, 2013)

I think 100% blood of Spanish pouters are not good for what I like. I like a bird that can fly at least 20 mins. 100% Spanish blood pouters just can't do that. That's why we cross them to reduce the blood purity and I guess that's what's call the Cuban pigeon. Just my 2 cents.


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