# The red mystery pigeon



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If you took a look at the Genetics Group, you may have seen the picture of a baby pigeon I had. It was red but it's wing feathers were interesting. Not quite t-pattern, not quite grizzle. All I know is it's a red bird.
To refresh your memory, here's some pictures of him before he was weaned:
http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/May152008/photo#5200652642583780050
http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/May152008/photo#5200652732778093282
Never got a picture of his (well I don't know if it's a he, but to me he'll be a he until he's a she) nestmate at that age.

Now here's some pictures from today, after they've grown up a bit:
http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/June12008/photo#5206990059285040802
http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/June12008/photo#5206990149479354034
http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/June12008/photo#5206990209608896194
His nestmate:
http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/June12008/photo#5206990415767326418
http://picasaweb.google.com/MaryOfExeter/June12008/photo#5206989780112166546 And them both together.

Woo, that was a lot of linking. I would have pics instead of their links, but I already had them on Picasa.

Now, someone asked what their parents looked like. I don't have their pictures on Picasa so with the help of Tinypic, you'll see pictures without links 

Mom:








Dad:


















I've also got pictures of their previous clutches, who look nothing like this one (4th and last for the year)


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Interesting. I'll just wait around with you and see what the pro's have to say..........LOL........I don't have a clue.  He looks like a grizzle to me but I don't know what the deal is with the flight feathers. They're pretty though.............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

So, since Dad's red and Mom's blue, don't we know that both of these birds are cocks?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> So, since Dad's red and Mom's blue, don't we know that both of these birds are cocks?


I don't know if it always works out like that.
Their first two clutches consisted of a yellow check hen and a cock like this one (who happens to be from the second clutch):








The third clutch:








And now these two. Seems to me like they keep getting more and more red.
All the red ones before looked like they had more blue in them, like indigos.
I can't think of a time when I've ever had a clutch of the same sex. It seems about time for it to happen then


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I get same sex clutches all the time. We just sprayed our birds this morning so I was checking off band numbers as we went and I've got two YB hens (out of the same nest) both sitting on eggs. My very first babies hatched this year were two red cock birds. They were out of a sex-linked mating. Blue cock/Red hen.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

_"So, since Dad's red and Mom's blue, don't we know that both of these birds are cocks?"_ Lovebird

Nope, it's the other way around. When you have an blue/black cock X an ash-red hen, then you have a sex-linked mating. It's easier if you think of it as - when it comes to brown, wild-type (blue-black), ash-red -- if the hen is showing the more dominant of the pigment color, then the mating will be a sex-linked one.

For example: a brown cock X either a blue or ash-red hen, will be sex-linked. All cocks will be color of dam, all hens will be color of the sire.

*As for the original question in this thread, yes the baby is an Ash-red Grizzle. It looks like it may also be carrying undergrizzle as well (very common with Grizzle birds since we didn't even know that undergrizzle was something unique in its own right until about 15 years ago.)* Ignore this sentence - I left it because I posted it, but it referred to the grizzle with his wing spread in the original posting. I thought that was the kid in question, but apparently it's the dad.

However, we do know from your other youngsters that: A) Dad is heterozygous for dilution (hence your yellow check hen); B) Dad is also heterozygous for check and bar; hence your checkered and barred youngsters (since mom is a bar, dad must carry the check and since you've raised bars, he also must be heterozygous for bar); dad is also obviously heterozygous for grizzle since you've raised a mess of non-grizzled young as well.

Frank


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Beckey, I think the young bird in question is a RED GRIZZLE CARRYING INDIGO which comes from the father who I believe has the Indigo gene.The reason that I say there is indiigo is the grayish look of the tail also around the vent area, and the primary flights also there is a hint of indigo. As far as the nest mate it looks to me to be a red check I think it will be a hen,I don't know that a RED Grizzle mated to a blue hen is what is call a sex linked mating I don't think it is but BILL or FRANK MAY BE ABLE TO ANSWER THAT. BECKEY you have some very nice looking birds and they all look healthy. The blue hen the mom looks like she has a smile on her face.*GEORGE


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

I went back and looked at the photos again after George's posting. Honestly, I thought the bird in question was the grizzle with his wing spread in the original posting.

When I looked at the youngster with the darker tail and flights, i have to admit, George has a point. It could be indigo in the mix as well. Keep breeding the parents. If it is indigo, at some point you will pop one on the blue side and you'll have a 100% certainty then. There's no mistaking an indigo without ash-red involved.

Frank


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I Do not think it has indigo Showing in the pictures. And looking at the parents. I believe indigo Is not seen Nor masked. Grizzle is more what it shows. And is more split from ash to light grizzle. To mark it better with young Put it back over a grizzle. To spread the pattern better. Seems to me indigo Would have a deeper color. Thats why I said I do not think it has indigo color. But I have been wrong before So I could be wrong agin.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I guessed indigo had to be in there somewhere, since 4 of the babies they've had, actually look like they've got blue in them. The oldest male out of them I have, his tail looks very blue-ish gray, as well as on the wings. I've stopped them from breeding now so we'll see what they put out this winter. 

Speaking of indigo, I have these two splashes. Each of the colored feathers on their wings are half blue and half dark red. Would that make them indigo check splashes?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*HI BECKEY, We realy need to see the birds that you speak of. Let me say this if you are racing those birds it is best that you call them red check splash the reason that i say this is most racing people do not understand genetic terminology and if the bird looks red that is what they understand so just race the birds and enjoy the fun. You know that the birds may be geneticly different and thats realy all that counts.* ..GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah I figured you'd want pictures 
I'm on my laptop now with all the pictures, so ask and you shall receive. Personally I've been calling them indigo check splashes, but that's just me.
Sadly I don't have any good pictures of these two young birds. I do have this one, although it's hard to tell. [click to see a bigger picture]

The splash in the middle. You can tell there's red and blue there, it's just dark.
I do however, have a close up of their mom's back. You can really see the red and blue there:








See, that's what I meant by half blue half red feathers.
The only difference between her and her babies, is that the babies' color appears to be more dark.


Funny thing, I have pictures of the parents AND grandparents, but no good pictures of the babies I'm asking about 
I'll see if I can get some today or tomorrow.


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

i have some indigo chinese owls want me to post a picture of there colour and there back?


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2008)

dont you just love a mystery hehe


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I think we're seeing alot of indigo*

I don't think Indigo can be carried or masked, it either is or isn't as it's dominant to wild type. In the homozygous state, it shows up as bluish and reddish together, much like ash red check but with darker tails and wing tips. The presence of white makes no difference as it can be from pied or grizzle. I'm still learning this one myself as it's pretty new to me too but dominant is dominant and either it is or isn't indigo. Indigo is one of those weird ones like grizzle in that a homozygous (double factor) bird looks completely different from a heterozygous one (single factor). The pictures that I've seen of heterozygous indigo have a very blue purple look without the presence of red or brown. Add spread factor and they become andalusion, which is very blue with dark or black outlines to the feathers.

I now have some of all of these colors and will post them as soon as I get my computer problems straightened out.

Some of the other birds in these pics are ash red, as they have the light (silvery) tails and wingtips, the mark of the ash.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yeah I figured you'd want pictures
> I'm on my laptop now with all the pictures, so ask and you shall receive. Personally I've been calling them indigo check splashes, but that's just me.
> Sadly I don't have any good pictures of these two young birds. I do have this one, although it's hard to tell. [click to see a bigger picture]
> 
> ...


 HI BECKEY, The splash is a Indigo the redish color in the check is the indigo modifier this can be very strong or it may be weak but it still is indigo.the indigos that I have  vairy in their intensity..Indigo by it self in the heterozygous state does not completely hide the pattern,the only time that it will is when you mate a bird carrying spread the result would be Andalusion and that will hide the pattern. ....GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks guys 
Just making sure me calling all these birds indigo was correct.
In case you couldn't tell, I've ended up with quite a bit of indigo in my loft. Perfectly fine with me though; I love the color


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It's a very cool color*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Thanks guys
> Just making sure me calling all these birds indigo was correct.
> In case you couldn't tell, I've ended up with quite a bit of indigo in my loft. Perfectly fine with me though; I love the color


But one of those things to be careful with or everybody is indigo, just like grizzle or ash red etc. Dominant genes can take over a flock. Indigo has some great looks when combined with other modifiers and andalusion is very pretty.

Bill


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