# In your country, how do you say?



## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

A thread by twinturbo inspired this. That thread has already gone many directions so I found it appropriate to start a new one.

The naming system is all mest up. It's like one guy named one thing and another, another.
I use to say that it's called ash red and not just ash because of the lack of tail bar. I don't see why that justifies calling out the pattern color though...

So here is what I propose:
*Blue bar *- spread form being * black*
*Silver bar* - spread = *dun*

*Ash bar* - spread could just be *ash* (I read where Axel Sell called them spread ash) or someone can think of a nice name that fits with spread. Lavender doesn't really make to much sense seeing to it that ash doesn/t not turn to lavender...
*Cream bar* - Spread would just be *cream*.

Now I have problems when it comes to *brown/khaki*. I agree with both of those however that is only naming the pattern color. I do not have personal expeirence with browns except for ones which are already smokey and a couple at that.
From what I understand the sheild color is in fact a light brown?
I know some call them creams however that is not right...

Or we can take things the other way and name both colors:
*Blue, black bar
silver, dun bar*

*ash, red bar
cream, yellow bar.*

And again with the browns someone else would need to imput their epeirence with them..

No problems with calling recessive red and it's dilute form *red/yellow*

On that not how have your preceptions of colors changed getting into birds?
I first called recessive yellows brown when I was a totally new.
I had someone come over and they called recessive reds brown.

I've realized after knowing pigeon genetics and looking into dogs/horses and mice that animals aren't always named perfectly. I mean calling blue's blue is someone what of a stretch... I guess there just not as vibrant as flowers, though many tropical birds are much like bright flower colors.

Now I understand changing the way most pigeon [or just people in general] think is not an easy task and not going to happen anytime soon. Makes me sick though when I geneticist call them silver dun bar just to conform to the majority of the pigeon world.
However if everything was uniform it would lessen confusion and in general make gaining the knowledge all the easier.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm old school.
Slv= silver
BB= Blue Bar
RC= Red Check
Bc= Blue Check
Grz= Grizzle 
Bl= Black
And almost every thing else is AOC= any other color
Dave


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I prefer to think of it this way.....

There is always going to be inconsistencies with the names people call certain colours, Phenotype names vary and have no real rules, I think trying to apply rules to them is a waste of time

Genotype names however, should and usually are kept inline with each other

Ie, Blue bar - Well that's a blue bar

Silver bar ( dilute) is a dilute blue bar

Ash red bar, Is an Ash red bar, As ash red is the name of the colour, Just like blue or brown is the name of the colour, When one calls a bird an ash red bar, they are saying the bird is Ash red, with bar as pattern. The birds colour is not labelled Ash, genetically it is ash red. I see your confusion but I believe you are forgetting the three base colours are called Brown, Blue and Ash red, not brown, blue and ash.


So:
Blue, Bar
Brown, Bar
Ash red, Bar

So to stop you feeling sick and to keep things inline, I suggest rather than changing the phenotype names, We all start using gene names

Blue - Spread- Dilute Instead of Dun.
Recessive red - Dilute 
Brown - Spread
Blue - Bar - Smokey
Blue - Bar - Grizzle
Ash red - Check - Grizzle - pied

Seems there is not too much room for confusion keeping it this way.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm not confused, rather just pointing out the inconsistencies.
I understand people don't call it an ash bar, what I'm saying is they should.
saying blue bar is like you said. A blue pigeon with a bar. (in the case of blue the bar is black).
However saying ash red bar is not saying the pigeon is ash and red with a bar. It is saying it is ash with a red bar. Much the same as saying silver dun bar opposed to just silver bar.

We all get on people for saying silver dun bar but readily accept and agree with them upon saying ash red bar.

Yes I agree with you about just adding dilute to things as well... However it would be more confusing if my brother and I were in our loft and I said to him "Hey can you hand me the blue t-pattern pearl eye white flight smokey spread dilute. Rather than just asking for a dun... Common things get common names.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> I'm not confused, rather just pointing out the inconsistencies.
> I understand people don't call it an ash bar, what I'm saying is they should.
> saying blue bar is like you said. A blue pigeon with a bar. (in the case of blue the bar is black).
> However saying ash red bar is not saying the pigeon is ash and red with a bar. It is saying it is ash with a red bar. Much the same as saying silver dun bar opposed to just silver bar.
> ...


The point you are missing is the three base colours are blue, brown and ash red, not blue, brown and ash.

therefore I am saying the bird is ash red in colour and bar in pattern.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> The point you are missing is the three base colours are blue, brown and ash red, not blue, brown and ash.
> 
> therefore I am saying the bird is ash red in colour and bar in pattern.


I am aware of the three base colors. Matter of fact I did a video on them a couple weeks back






So what your saying is the sheild or base color to an ash red bird is not ash, but rather ash red?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I have never seen a cream pigeon (ash yelllow spread).

When one says "red bar" it implies that everyone should know that you can't get a recessive red bar. I wont bring up toy stencil... 

I am all for genotype color naming, but it is difficult for pigeons.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> I have never seen a cream pigeon (ash yelllow spread).


Here is one 

I would call this a *cream* or more easily understood in the pigeon world a *dilute lavender* or as you prefer *Homozygous ash red, bar, homyzgous dilute, homozygous white flight, homozygous smokey, homozygous pearl eye =]*



Henk69 said:


> When one says "red bar" it implies that everyone should know that you can't get a recessive red bar. I wont bring up toy stencil...


 I have no idea how 'red bar' implies it's not recessive? How would just calling it an ash change any of that?



Henk69 said:


> I am all for genotype color naming, but it is difficult for pigeons.


Great for those who know genetics, but like I said earlier common things get common names. This is why a dilute lavender doesn't have a fancy name no one breeds them as they look like bad whites...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> I am aware of the three base colors. Matter of fact I did a video on them a couple weeks back
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have twisted my words

What I said was, And read carefully...... The three base colours are, Blue, Brown and ash red, I do not have time to watch your video again but I am pretty sure you yourself refer to them the same way in the video

Now a blue bird that is bar is blue bar, base colour is known as blue base pattern is known as bar, Same applies to brown

Ash red is know as ash red, So the bird is ash red bar. I am not saying or making reference to what colour the bird appears, I am making reference to the fact the birds base colour has been for years and still as (as far as I know) referred to as ASH RED. 

If people were calling them ASH RED, RED BARS, Then for sure, pull them up on it as that IMO would be the same as calling a blue bar a blue black bar.

So, we have established you know what the three base colours are called or referred to, Blue, Brown and ash red. So can you please explain how calling an ash red based bird ash red bar, is different to calling a blue base bird a blue bar without making reference to the actual physical appearance of the colour as that is regardless here, we are talking about labelling the base colour and pattern, not describing its appearance.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> You have twisted my words
> 
> What I said was, And read carefully...... The three base colours are, Blue, Brown and ash red, I do not have time to watch your video again but I am pretty sure you yourself refer to them the same way in the video
> 
> ...


Well I'm not twisting your words, perhaps mis understanding them... Anyways I was asking what you said for claification, hints the question mark. So by far in no ways twisting...

You said:


NZ Pigeon said:


> "therefore I am saying the bird is ash red in colour and bar in pattern."


 So I took this as you saying the base color is an ash reddish color and it has bar.
I thought this because the whole point in my first post covers this. This is the same as saying silver dun bar. Or blue black bar... My whole point It is inconsistent. 
This is why I said we should just call it an ash bar, and the dilute form a cream bar.
Do you understand?

If you knew what I said in my video then why did you try to educate me on the very things I spoke about?

I suggest you re read my first post in here as it cover everything I just spoke about.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I understand your point and I have responded in full, You are in a way trying to say we should re label the base colour currently known as Ash red based on its appearance.

Can you not see my point?

HERE IS A DIAGRAM TO HELP

BASE COLOUR, PATTERN 
Blue, Bar
Ash red, Bar
Brown, Bar

This is currently the way most people see the barred series of birds, they put their well known base colour label (not appearance) first, followed by a comma, followed by the word bar.

If we were to write this out in symbols and then translate them to words it would read the same as above

However, If as I said above, one was to call them an Ash red, Red bar, that would be the same IMO as calling them a Blue, Black bar or a Silver, Dun bar.

Anyway, If you cannot see my point then we will agree to disagree, but just remember, I am not getting into phenotypes here as that confuses things more, I am talking Genes, Blue, Brown, Ash red and Bar.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

To Sum up

No, IMO we should not start calling them ash bars

My argument for this is 

Their base colour is Labelled Ash red, And their base pattern labelled Bar

When listing their base colour followed by their base pattern as a point of reference it reads

Ash Red, Bar.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes I understand.
My whole point is that by calling them ash red bars we are not saying the bird is ash red with bars. We are saying it is a ash bird with red bars. Thus saying the same thing is silver dun bar or blue black bar. 
My point is calling them ash bars would be more line with everything else we say.

You keep trying to tell me what people call it... I get it everyone refers to it as ash red bar and not ash..
I don't think you are understanding the point of this thread.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I understand your point, but I disagree.
You have clearly missed my point, I call them Ash red birds as that is their base colours label, If they are barred I call them Ash red, Bars. I am not making reference to the colour of the bar when I call them Ash red bar, I am simply calling them what they are commonly referred to as, ASH RED. You yourself in your video refer to the colour of the bird as ASH RED.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Evan, I am not missing your point you are missing mine.
I call/ed them ash red's because if I said ash no one would understand what I am saying.
My only point is calling them ash bar's makes a whole lot more sense. It lines everything up correctly. I never said that I was on a mission to change pigeon genetic terms. Simply pointing out that it is the same as saying silver dun bar....
The base color of ash reds is not ash red it is ash, the bars are red...
I'm wondering why we're going back on forth on this because I don't think we are even disagreeing.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I am disagreeing with your statement that calling them ash red, bars is the same as calling them silver, dun bars. - Take note of where I have placed the commas.

Ash red is the base colour, Bar is the pattern. 

I see your point, I disagree with it, I would see calling them ash red, red bars as the same as calling them silver dun bars, That's my opinion based around the fact the base colour is and has been known for years as ASH RED and the pattern as BAR, so I am simply combining the two.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> Evan, I am not missing your point you are missing mine.
> *I call/ed them ash red's because if I said ash no one would understand what I am saying.*My only point is calling them ash bar's makes a whole lot more sense. It lines everything up correctly. I never said that I was on a mission to change pigeon genetic terms. Simply pointing out that it is the same as saying silver dun bar....
> The base color of ash reds is not ash red it is ash, the bars are red...
> I'm wondering why we're going back on forth on this because I don't think we are even disagreeing.



Take note of the bold area

There is a reason no one would understand and that is because the colour has been labelled ASH RED, not ASH. That's just how it is, if a bird is ash red and barred it is ash red, bar, just as if a bird is blue and barred it is blue, bar.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I am disagreeing with your statement that calling them ash red, bars is the same as calling them silver, dun bars. - Take note of where I have placed the commas.
> 
> Ash red is the base colour, Bar is the pattern.
> 
> I see your point, I disagree with it, I would see calling them ash red, red bars as the same as calling them silver dun bars, That's my opinion based around the fact the base colour is and has been known for years as ASH RED and the pattern as BAR, so I am simply combining the two.


I fully understand that, however where you put the comma does not change the fact that the base color of the dominate gene in question is not red but ash. The only reason why red is being mentioned is because it is the pattern color. Therefore calling them ash red, bars is a bad name in comparsion to blue, bar or silver, bar. either that or the blue, bar should be called the blue black, bar. 

Having said that I fully understand that "ash red" is the tern used by the entire genetic community.

Is there anything you do not understand?



NZ Pigeon said:


> Take note of the bold area
> 
> There is a reason no one would understand and that is because the colour has been labelled ASH RED, not ASH. That's just how it is, if a bird is ash red and barred it is ash red, bar, just as if a bird is blue and barred it is blue, bar.


Again do you understand you are mentioning two colors with the first one? The "ash red, bars" 

When you say blue bar you mention one color? 

Albeit this is the way it is. Doesn't mean it is the best. That's all


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

No I am mentioning one colour, "ASH RED" Remember, It is one of the three base colours you mention in your video you have created. 

I thought you were smart enough to understand what I am saying. Ash red is one colour, Blue is another, Brown is another, we all know that, it is basic. 

Come one Corbin, Think about this.

Ash red, red bar.
Blue, Black bar.
Silver, Dun bar.

Those would be incorrect.

Ash red, Bar
Blue, Bar
Brown, Bar is putting the label for the colour first followed by the label for the pattern.
.

It is completely different to saying silver dun bar, That is labelling the base colour then the bar colour, I agree with that, I am simply labelling the base colour followed by the pattern.

I will ask you one question Corbin

What are the three base colours currently labelled and recognised as?


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> No I am mentioning one colour, "ASH RED" Remember, It is one of the three base colours you mention in your video you have created.
> 
> I thought you were smart enough to understand what I am saying. Ash red is one colour, Blue is another, Brown is another, we all know that, it is basic.
> 
> ...


Evan, again why are we doing this?
We do not disagree on this.

I'll start on the last thing you said. I told you in my previous post that I understood that what's everyone said. I do not deny this. Ash red is not a color describing the base pattern. It is two colors. One is ash, the other is red. It is not ash red. Or as you are saying ash red red bar. The sheild is ash, that is all. Not the least bit red. Granted we call it ash red. I'll say it again the labelled and recognised term is "ash red" My point is Ash would be more right of a term. 

Read my last post and perhaps start at the beginning. As I am now repeating myself.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

We are disagreeing, You are saying calling a bird a blue, black bar is the same as calling a bird an ash red, bar yes???

I would see calling a bird an ash red, red bar the same as calling a bird a blue, black bar.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> Evan, again why are we doing this?
> We do not disagree on this.
> 
> I'll start on the last thing you said. I told you in my previous post that I understood that what's everyone said. I do not deny this. Ash red is not a color describing the base pattern. It is two colors. One is ash, the other is red. It is not ash red. Or as you are saying ash red red bar. The sheild is ash, that is all. Not the least bit red.* Granted we call it ash red. I'll say it again the labelled and recognised term is "ash red" My point is Ash would be more right of a term.*
> ...


This statement suggests you do want to change the label given to what is currently recognised as "ash red" to "ash" Why???? It works fine.

Based on it being changed then yes, "ash bar" would be correct but as the label is currently "ash red" then "ash red, bar" is no different or no more incorrect than calling a "blue" bird with "bar" a "blue bar" silver dun bar however and blue black bar is completely different as that is in fact naming the currently recognised base colour followed by the colour of the pattern then the pattern itself.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

I get it Evan, however the only reason you say that is convention. I agree with that. However it would make more sense to use one color in the name sense that whats everything else goes by.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> I get it Evan, however the only reason you say that is convention. I agree with that. However it would make more sense to use one color in the name sense* that whats everything else goes by*.


What was that you were saying about convention?


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> What was that you were saying about convention?


I have been saying this as along. I understand that it is convention. That doesn't mean it is the best term to describe a gene.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> I have been saying this as along. I understand that it is convention. That doesn't mean it is the best term to describe a gene.


So you do actually want to change the recognized name of the gene known as "Ash red" to Ash?

I am sticking to my point which you disagree with clearly, At this stage, While ASH RED is Labelled ASH RED it is fine to call them ash red, Bar and is not actually the same as calling a bird a blue, black bar or a silver, dun bar as we are simply calling the bird its recognized label for colour and its recognized label for pattern in succession of each other.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

you missed my point, your sentence claims we only use the current term as its convention and then you go on to say we should use one colour that whats everything else goes go, I think you meant that's what everything else goes by yea??? So at the moment its convention and you wish it to change to what everything else goes by, And that's not convention?????? I find the sentence contradictory.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Evan I'm starting to think you're trolling me. Yes it is convention. I said I was not trying to change it. One color is what most use for other base colors.....
I'm just saying it makes more sense. What don't you get and what does tradition or convention matter to what makes sense? They seem to change the Rock pigeon to doves, every 5 years. Not all pigeon terms (regardless of not if their pheno or genotypyical names) best represent what you see.
Like I've been saying since post one. I think ash makes more sense because this is keeping the naming system the same across it, blue's and browns'. 
The "ash red" name breaks the system of organization by adding a new peremeter. In this case another color.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I am not trolling you, just responding to your rebuttles. I have not been disagreeing with the suggestion of changing the name or the fact it would make more sense.

I have been disagreeing with your statement claiming calling them ash red, bars is the same as silver, dun bars. Simple.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

You have already mentioned you are naming two colors and not one. Both blue and brown is a one color phenotype name. So why is ash red two colors to describe one area? You also mentioned that the sheild area is only ash in color with no red. That's what this whole threads been on is that ash makes more sense. Only the bar or pattern is red on a ash red the ash part is only ash. 

This breaks the system of name calling and you claim it makes sense?

I guess I'm going to be done here. You have been missing my point at every post and this thread has lacked progress sense your first post.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have seen your point and agreed, what I am disputing for maybe the 7th time now is that calling a bird an ash red bar is not the same as calling a bird a silver dun bar as ash red is currently a recognised name, Silver dun is not.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have seen your point and agreed, what I am disputing for maybe the 7th time now is that calling a bird an ash red bar is not the same as calling a bird a silver dun bar as ash red is currently a recognised name, Silver dun is not.


I challange you to find one time in this thread where I have denied that it is refered to as "ash red"? 

My point is it shouldn't be based on the other two.

And to what your line of reasoning what does it matter that it's recgnised? That doesn't mean it's a good name? I have repeated this several times. Your only rebuttal is "It's the accepted term".

Silver dun is recongised by many people in the pigeon world. I'd argue more call it that than the proper.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hopefully some others might comment on this thread, although unlikely now.........


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Any one else care to comment? One way or the other? Or maybe a new view point?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Just that the default bar color does not have to be mentioned.
Examples:
Blue black bar
Silver dun bar
Ash red bronze bar


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