# Help! What do we do with this egg?



## tortie

Hello! We are new to this forum and here is our story:

We have just moved into a new house that had a pigeon nest on the balcony. There was 1 egg in the nest. While cleaning the balcony (as it was caked in poop) we believe we have scared off the parents, and although we had to move the nest to clean the floor we have put the nest back where we found it. After it became apparent that the pigeons were not going to come back for the egg, we have taken in the egg. We shined a flashlight behind it, and it has veins and an embryo. We were unsure whether it was still alive because the nest had been abandoned for at least half a day. 

We put the egg in a plastic container on a bed of tissues, then covered it and put it behind a small refrigerator as we figured that would keep the egg warm without having to shine a light directly on it. To keep some humidity in there, we put a tiny bit of damp tissue in there as well. We have been rotating the container periodically, but read today somewhere that you're not supposed to do that or even keep it incubated after a certain number of days. Today we looked at the egg again with a light and we could see the embryo moving! We could see the mass inside pulsing and it looked like it moved a bit too. Now that we are sure it is still alive, we don't know what to do with it. We have no idea how old this egg is, as we have only moved in about 3 days ago, so we don't know how close it is to hatching.

We have called a few wildlife rescue places locally, and have been told that we should probably just throw the egg away - apparently they would not bother with a pigeon. 

We are considering trying to hatch the egg ourselves and keeping it as a pet, but we have no idea where to get started or if it is even feasible for us to try to bring up a newly hatched pigeon with no parents. We have also thought of trying to put the egg back in the nest and putting the nest somewhere outside in hopes of some other pigeons just adopting the nest and the baby. Or, we are wondering if we would be able to find someone in our area more experienced who will actually take in the egg for their own pigeon pets.

Your advice would be greatly appreciated!!


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## TAWhatley

Hi Tortie and welcome to Pigeon-Talk.

First and foremost, you need to "candle" the egg. If it is fertile, we'll take it from there. If it's not .. it's a moot point and the egg can be disposed of. Take the egg and a GOOD flashlight into a dark room/area .. like a closet. Shine the light through the egg and tell us what you see .. that will determine what needs to happen .. or not ..

Terry


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## tortie

Yes we have done that and have seen veins as well as a dark mass in there. We saw that the mass was pulsing, due to a hearbeat I assume, and it looked like it moved just slightly too. Does that mean it is close to hatching?


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## Skyeking

It may still need more time, because when a chick is a day or two from hatching it has pretty much taken up the egg and you can't candle it anymore.

Let me go and find and post the link to the incubation thread, meanwhile hopefully Terry or someone has some birds laying on some eggs (dummies or real), about the same incubation time, that can help.

Here is the link:

Incubation, when there is no alternative:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=4968


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## warriec

If the egg hatches are you going to look after it (its not simple), also the egg needs to be turned 3 times around 3 times a day.

how long has the egg been away from the parents. Honestly, its going to be alot of work.


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## tortie

The egg has been away from its parents now for about 2 days (we took it in day before yesterday). From what we are reading it does seem like quite a bit of work to hatch and raise this baby so I am really hoping that we will be able to find somebody who can take it in. If needs be we will look after it as we do not have the heart to "throw away the egg", as was told to us by rescue people. Any suggestions on places we can call?

Also, what does it mean when the instructions say "turn the egg" - does that mean rotate the egg or actually roll the egg?


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## flitsnowzoom

Hi Tortie,
It's work but, pidgies are pretty derned sweet. Success rate isn't great if you have to take over brooding from the folks, if you don't have the right set-up, but that doesn't mean you can't do it. I'm not sure of the temps you have to maintain, but too high or too low are equally damaging. If you've seen a chick developing in there, it's worth the trying. 

Don't roll the egg too much. A parent bird moves the egg around to help the chick get even warmth but also to help keep the chick from sticking to the inside of the shell. Pretend your a bird and move it around occasionally so the "down" side is now up. They rearrange themselves a couple or 3 times a day so you might do accordingly.


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## tortie

We have rolled the egg so the side that was down is now up. We found a diagram online that shows how old an egg is based on how big the air sac inside is - we think it is about 14 days old. However I've read that it takes 1-19 days to hatch, and if the chick is supposed to take up the whole egg I don't think it is close to that yet.


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## warriec

Are you ready to look after the baby from the moment it comes out of the egg?


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## tortie

Ideally we would like to hand it off to someone who can take it in before it hatches.. but if that does not happen we would have to take care of it.


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## TAWhatley

tortie said:


> Ideally we would like to hand it off to someone who can take it in before it hatches.. but if that does not happen we would have to take care of it.


Let me know if I can assist in some way. I'm in Lake Forest in South Orange County. 

Terry


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## tortie

Thank you for your advice, after lots of research all day yesterday we have finally decided to try and hatch the egg ourselves. We went to the pet store and got a glass fish aquarium (10 gal I believe), and set it up with a heating pad and lined the sides with foil to help conduct the heat. We laid a towel over the heating pad and stuck a thermometer in there and put the egg in a little twig nest (also from the pet store). We also put a small tupperware container of water in there for humidity.

We candled the egg again, and it is amazing that the embryo appears bigger inside the egg. There is also quite a bit of movement in there - is that normal or are we jarring the egg too much when we are candling it? Also, we were wondering if it matters that the air cell in the egg looks crooked - it does not sit evenly at the top of the egg, rather it looks like it is tipped to one side.

Since the embryo is a good size inside the egg and the air cell looks bigger too, we have decided to stop rolling the egg.

We plan on using the exact formula administered by drops that we have seen mentioned in other postings. Do we need to lay down some shreds of paper towel or newspaper or something? It seems that the nest needs some padding but we do not have wood chips as I saw recommended in another thread. We know that it will be very demanding looking after the newborn, but we have become somewhat attached to the little embryo after looking at it. Maybe it's because we are new to birds and have never seen anything like this before. However my first concern is successfully hatching the newborn. Any other pointers we need to look out for right now?


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## flitsnowzoom

If you've done your research, you should be good. I would still recommend rotating or moving the egg occasionally, unless in all that reading you came across information that stated not to roll an egg. I remember something about moving the egg just a bit so the baby won't stick. Elementary school was a loooooonnnnngggg time ago for me and that was the last time I participated in an egg-hatching experiment but I remember we turned the eggs daily -- but those were chicken eggs too. 
I sort of hate that non-padded environment. I'd use a few shreds of white paper toweling to cushion the egg. Once the baby hatches though you'll need to change the substrate to something to give it a bit of "purchase" for the legs or it runs the risk of developing splay leg. But we'll cross that bridge after your little one hatches. You'll also want a bit of light-weight something to cover this little one, again a nice little white paper towel will do fine. Your baby won't have the fuzz of a new-born chicken or duck. He'll be pretty much closed eyes and pink skin with spotty (coverage) yellow down feathers, and the most beautiful baby in the world (barring of course, your own people babies  ) 


You might want to look around for a snuggle for this baby to cozy up to. They have an instinctal urge to cuddle up to something (whether it's mom, dad, or nestmate). It won't feel so lonely.


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## Lovebirds

tortie said:


> Thank you for your advice, after lots of research all day yesterday we have finally decided to try and hatch the egg ourselves. We went to the pet store and got a glass fish aquarium (10 gal I believe), and set it up with a heating pad and lined the sides with foil to help conduct the heat. We laid a towel over the heating pad and stuck a thermometer in there and put the egg in a little twig nest (also from the pet store). We also put a small tupperware container of water in there for humidity.
> 
> We candled the egg again, and it is amazing that the embryo appears bigger inside the egg. There is also quite a bit of movement in there - is that normal or are we jarring the egg too much when we are candling it? Also, we were wondering if it matters that the air cell in the egg looks crooked - it does not sit evenly at the top of the egg, *rather it looks like it is tipped to one side.*
> Since the embryo is a good size inside the egg and the air cell looks bigger too, we have decided to stop rolling the egg.
> 
> We plan on using the exact formula administered by drops that we have seen mentioned in other postings. Do we need to lay down some shreds of paper towel or newspaper or something? It seems that the nest needs some padding but we do not have wood chips as I saw recommended in another thread. We know that it will be very demanding looking after the newborn, but we have become somewhat attached to the little embryo after looking at it. Maybe it's because we are new to birds and have never seen anything like this before. However my first concern is successfully hatching the newborn. Any other pointers we need to look out for right now?


The air sac is supposed to be sort of at an angle, so you're good there. When I have to bring a baby inside, I roll up an old sock for it to snuggle up against. This is so exciting. I guess you know WE ALL will be watching for regular updates!! LOL.......oh and PICTURES............
To keep the baby from developing spraddle/splay legs, it will need something to help keep it's legs under it. Another old sock would work just fine.


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## tortie

We had been rolling it before, but read somewhere that about 3 days prior to hatching you stop rolling it so the baby can get into position to pip out of the shell. Is that right? Should we still be rolling it?

Is it alright if we put a paper towel over the sock under the baby to catch poop or would that not work in keeping the legs from splaying?

We will keep you updated on any developments!


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## TAWhatley

tortie said:


> We had been rolling it before, but read somewhere that about 3 days prior to hatching you stop rolling it so the baby can get into position to pip out of the shell. Is that right? Should we still be rolling it?
> 
> Is it alright if we put a paper towel over the sock under the baby to catch poop or would that not work in keeping the legs from splaying?
> 
> We will keep you updated on any developments!


It is my understanding that you stop turning the egg a few days before hatching. Hopefully someone who really knows will be along to comment.

The paper towel over the sock kind of defeats the goal of providing an easy to grip substrate. You might want to try using a piece of the rubberized shelf liner which can be washed and reused.

Terry


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## tortie

After a couple of days closely monitoring the egg, today we have found small cracks beginning to appear in the shell! We read that it can take up to 20 hrs for the baby to make it out though, is that correct? If it starts to look like the chick can't make it out on its own can we help it and at what point??


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## flitsnowzoom

Yes, you can help it out, but there are very experienced folks on here that know and can advise. I'd think if it hasn't made it out in 24 hours then it's time for rescue squad.

Fingers crossed


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## tortie

It has now been about 4 hours since we've seen the first cracks, however is it a concern if the baby is not actually puncturing the egg shell? There are some cracks visible but there is no actual "hole" as most people have mentioned in describing pippng. I am worried that the baby is too weak to break the shell.


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## flitsnowzoom

Don't know if will help but here's a link.
http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/trouble.htm#PIP

It's geared for chickens, but . . . 

http://www.hatching-egg.com/hatching_egg.html
another one.

http://www.ext.vt.edu/resources/4h/virtualfarm/poultry/poultry_development.html

It's amazing what's out there. I guess if the chick is pipping into the air sac it has a much better success rate (which makes sense as it is an airbreather).

Go back and read the link on incubating the egg that was posted earlier in this thread. 

I haven't read anything yet on helping them out but if it doesn't seem to progress after several hours you might help a bit. 

Good luck


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## TAWhatley

Tortie,

I think it is too soon to be considering helping out. It's good that you are keeping close watch on what is happening, though. When I've seen babies pipping out, there weren't what looked like cracks to me but rather what I would describe as dents in the eggshell. Eventually, there was a line of dents going around the circumference of the egg which then split open to free the baby. It is very risky to help the baby prematurely as the least little mishap can cause a bleed that can kill the little one. Sometimes it is necessary to help, but I think you need to wait a bit longer.

Hopefully someone who is really up on their incubating and hatching will be along to help us out.

Terry


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## Skyeking

It takes between 15 to 30 hours between the first pipping and hatching, if the egg is pipped and cracked the circumfrance of egg, then the chick will break free and the egg splits in half- that is the normal way they hatch as I have seen with mine.

If you don't see any progress in the cracking of egg in this manner, then you should intervene, otherwise just let nature take its course.

If there is just a hole where the baby is and there is no further cracking, it is possible the chick is too weak to turn in the shell and break it open, or that the shell contents are drying out and the chick is stuck to the shell and can't move. You can try two things, gently remove shell so chicks head is free, or put a little saliva into the hole of the egg, the saliva is warm and slippery and will help the chick to move around and break free, if it is healthy.

Are you prepared to be a surrogate mother or have found a home with pigeon pair to feed it? Keep the egg/baby warm and it needs to be receiving its first "pigeon milk" meal within a few hours after hatching?


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## tortie

It has been almost 19 hours now and unfortunately there is not been any progress since we initially saw some cracks. It is not going the circumference of the egg, it is just pipping at the same spot and not breaking through. We peeled a tiny bit of shell off (but not the membrane under it) and exposed a small hole where the baby had been pipping. The membrane appears somewhat dry although we are keeping the environment rather humid. When holding up a light to the egg we can see the baby moving slightly, but its movements definitely appear weak and we believe it won't make it out on its own.

We are pretty sure we're going to have to assist it out, but are not sure how long to wait. From reading some other threads, it seems that waiting too long will make the baby too weak to survive after it is out of the shell. But at the same time we do not want to get it out too early.


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## tortie

I'm wondering if it is stuck to the shell and can't free itself?


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## Skyeking

PLEASE read my post, the baby is probably stuck to the shell, so you need to help lubricate the shell within and help gently by removing the egg shell around the head. Go very slow as it can be bloody.

Make sure you have a proper nest bowl with good bottom of material that will give traction to the baby's feet. Keep baby very warm.

IF you are going to use Kaytee, please add some probiotics (and enzymes) or good organic kefir/yogurt to the formula. It should be very thin and runny in the beginning.


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## Skyeking

Check you PM


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## tortie

Whoops Treesa did not see your previous post before I did mine. We removed the part of the egg where the air cell was and the membrane is definitely dried out and stuck to the baby. We put some saliva on it. It looks like it is gasping for air though. can we break the membrane?


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## Skyeking

Yes, gently open and ALLOW baby to get out by itself.


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## flitsnowzoom

I understand that a fairly high humidity is critical during this last stage to make sure the egg shell and membranes do not dry out too much. Maybe spritz the egg or the nesting material with a bit of H2O to provide a bit of humidity.

Were you able to quickly read through the info on the links that were posted earlier? That might provide a few ideas if your chick isn't making much progress. 

Hoping and praying for a good outcome.


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## Skyeking

Here is the PM sent to me by tortie




tortie said:


> We have freed the beak but the rest of the head is still inside, we are afraid to go any further because part of the membrane is now bleeding. Is it that ok? The part of the egg shell we have been removing has reached the edge of the air cell and the rest looks attached to the membrane.


If the membrane is bloody then it is too soon for the egg to hatch, did you check your temperature on the incubator to make sure it is set at the right degree?

I have never experienced any blood on an already hatching chick, just chipped away some of the egg around the baby's head to allow it to hatch the rest of the way.


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## tortie

We had been checking the temperature to make sure it is warm enough. Here is a picture I took after we took some of the shell off (head is not free yet, just beak - bubbles are from saliva):


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## tortie

It keeps opening and closing its mouth. Is it gasping for air? is there something we can do for that?


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## Skyeking

That egg looks like it is not fully developed, the baby is usually grown to full term, and there is nothing between the egg shell and the chick....but the chick.

I am at a loss as to what to do, I don't know if the baby can be saved, as the egg does not full term.

Please read all the information you have been sent.


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## tortie

Yes it looks like it might be premature... but it started pipping so we had to do something. We will keep trying to gently free it.


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## Skyeking

I have checked with a few other members and they do not have the experience to give advice on a premature chick hatching, perhaps somewhere in the links you were given you can find the answer as what to do next. The baby may not be fully developed to be able to survive.

I will continue to see if I can find someone that does have experience with premature hatchling.


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## tortie

We freed some more of the shell and put it back on the heating pad to warm it. It is trying to push itself out of the shell but has not been able to yet. 

We have Kaytee Exact on hand to feed it. For enzymes is yogurt w/ live cultures ok? Do we mix a bit in with the Exact formula? And how soon after it is out of the shell do we feed it?


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## Skyeking

Trees Gray said:


> *Are you prepared to be a surrogate mother or have found a home with pigeon pair to feed it? Keep the egg/baby warm and it needs to be receiving its first "pigeon milk" meal within a few hours after hatching?*





tortie said:


> We have Kaytee Exact on hand to feed it. For enzymes is yogurt w/ live cultures ok? Do we mix a bit in with the Exact formula? And how soon after it is out of the shell do we feed it?


Make sure it is plain yogurt of very high quality from health food store, just use a pinch. As far as digestive enzymes, that info, can be found in the "mac milk" hatchling diet, which would probably be more approrpiate for this premature hatchling.

When you have time please read all the links given earlier.


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## flitsnowzoom

Does the baby look better? Freeing from the shell may take more time, but if possible, do not assist any further if it can breathe. Survival rates are better if the baby can do most of the work itself -- but you are on scene, not us. You'll have to make the call. 

It looks premature and may still have some yolk to absorb. Make sure what ever you do that your hands are as clean as possible and that the incubator is clean too. 
I'm extrapolating from my preemie son's care -- cleanliness was critical, so I would imagine it would hold true for all animals as well. Make sure you have everything as ready as possible because once this little one is out -- well, it will be just like a human baby -- your time won't be yours for awhile.  


Good luck and prayers for a safe hatching.


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## tortie

sorry but the baby is gone. we shouldn't have intervened and now i regret not leaving it alone. if anyone ever reads this thread don't intervene unless you know what you are doing. at least it would have had a chance if we left it but i feel that we took that chance away. we just plain didn't know what we were doing and now feel really bad. we were tempted to help it out after reading almost everything on the internet thinking we had a plan and back up plan, now its gone by our unexperienced hands and not by nature. by the way, we gave it name, 'peabody,'... sorry peabody... i wish we could be watching you dry off and then feeding you.... =(


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## flitsnowzoom

Oh, Tortie, I'm so sorry.  We do the best we can and please don't beat yourself up about that. You gave this chick an opportunity to live and that was more than it would have had otherwise. Had you not helped the chick after the shell cracked and it died in the shell, then you'd feel like you hadn't done enough. 

Little Peabody was blessed to have found a family as caring as yours to take his little egg in and to give him that chance to live. 

RIP Peabody -- you touched more people than you will ever know.


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## Skyeking

I am sorry to hear the chick died, it is very sad to us all. The information I gave you was for a fully developed chick-which has been used successfully, and when I saw the picture that was not the case.

RIP sweet little Peabody.


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## SkyofAngels

I'm so sorry


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## TheSnipes

Your little guy will be remembered.  

I once had a very dear parrot named Peabody. He was very precious too.


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## Pidgey

Wish I'd looked into this much earlier, been too busy. I've seen them knock a few outward dents as much as a couple of days before even starting to pip out. Usually, they haven't absorbed the yolk into their abdomen (the bird equivalent of the umbilical cord) by then. It's a mistake to intervene before that point. They almost never need the help. I did something like that same thing once when it'd been 24 hours or so since I'd seen that first pip.

Pidgey


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