# Looking for feeding help



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I'm starting this thread for Landy ([email protected]). She contacted me this morning by PM regarding her 10 day old baby who's having some problems. I don't have the experience she needs and am hoping someone who does can respond. All I could think of to recommend is supplemental heat and probiotics. Thanks!

(From Landy) I've got a 10 day old who is the size of a 5 day old. As of his nightly feeding last night he refused dinner and pecked at me as if I were hurting him. He was quite all night, I feared looking at him this morning. He is OK, hungry now and ate. My biggest concern is when he eats he puffs up with air. He gets so big it looks as if it is about to pop. There are a ton more factors to this little guys life,that might be the reasons he is the way he is.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Terri/Landy,
Does the food move through the little guy or is his system sluggish? The circumstances as to why he might be the way he is would possibly be helpful information to know.


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Yes it does seem to be sluggish. And if things arn't bad enough, I think he might have splayed legs. I found him out from his mom cold and on the brink of death twice. He's in house now on heat and katee formula. What does the sluggish digestion mean? Thanks


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I want to make sure we both have the same concept of sluggish. Hoe long does it take for his crop to empty? How long have you had him inside?
It's really important to not add more food to a crop that already has food in it. To keep things moving, I add a scant pinch of powdered garlic to the formula. When they get cold, their systems slow down which could also explain the sluggish crop.
You have the little guy on a heating pad set on low? Make a donut shape, out of a towel, with the center just big enough for him to nest in and a towel underneath him. That should help with the splayed leg. Can you post a picture? [I don't know how but I'm counting on you to hopefully be a bit more savvy than myself about such things.]


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Charis
His crop never gets empty. It's always half full come time for next feeding. Yes on heat pad on low. I have a round shape bedding set up for him. I had to medicate some scrathes on his wing and side from his nails. He seems to be passing food through the bowels, it's long and slimey. I did all the research on correcting legs so I feel confident on that issue, just not sure when to start that. Seems like I need to figure his eating out first. I too have a hard time w/ the computer thing. But my other half just uploaded and resized my photo. This was taken yesterday, hope it helps.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If his crop still looks like that, don't feed him any more until it empties. It looks like he has way too much food in his crop.
I sent you a private message.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jol[email protected] said:


> Yes it does seem to be sluggish. And if things arn't bad enough, I think he might have splayed legs. I found him out from his mom cold and on the brink of death twice. He's in house now on heat and katee formula. What does the sluggish digestion mean? Thanks




Hi [email protected],


Oye...

Baby needs to be kept at about 103 degrees constantly...he should feel 'warm' is placed on the underaide of your wrist...as whould whatever he is on, safe from drafts.



Food needs to be fresh, made fresh each day and refrigerated or frozen, covered, between re-warms...food must NOT be warmed in a microwave, but rather, should be warmed in a little cup, in a pan of hot water...and formula needs to be fed at about this same temperature he needs to be kept at.

Formula should be liquidy-soupy, never viscous or thick.


How are you feeding him?

What are you feeding him? 

How are you preparing it?


Spoiled food, thick formula, chilled Babys, chilled Babys convert food in the Crop into spoiled food...food spoiled in a slow Crop of a chilled Baby will see Yeast or Candida infections follow, create Gas which inflates the Crop...and which causes their digestive system to share infection and to cease operations...finally causing the Baby to decease if matters are not ammended soon enough.

Hand raised, non thriving Babys, where the non thriveing is not resulting from Salmonella, are usually being troubled by not being kept warm enough, and or additionally, not being fed right.


So, lets review what you are doing, and how you do it???


..."details"...


A Heating Pad on "low" is almost certainly too cold for a Baby like this..!



Phil
l v


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Next time you feed him, you might add some good quality digestive enzymes as well as probiotics to the formula.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Heat is crucial to a baby this young.

You can purchase plain yogurt and add it to the Exact formula to help his digestion. It really works well.

Could you tell us how much and how often you are feeding this baby?

The following link has been really helpful in feeding the little ones. It is written by one of our moderators, Helen (Nooti) and contains really good information.

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Recipes/handfeedinghelp.htm


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Word of caution, that link suggests 40 mls as a feeding volume (for a squab of only 2 weeks) which might be WAY TOO MUCH so be careful - don't overdo it. I know this little guy isn't nearly that old yet, but even mine who are that age - it would be too much for them. Your little guy in the pic seems a little too full, to me.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Could a Moderator Please Edit ?*



TheSnipes said:


> Word of caution, that link suggests 40 mls as a feeding volume (for a squab of only 2 weeks) which might be WAY TOO MUCH so be careful - don't overdo it. I know this little guy isn't nearly that old yet, but even mine who are that age - it would be too much for them. Your little guy in the pic seems a little too full, to me.


You are right. Could a Moderator please clarify the link that has caused confusion. It really isn't clear.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I would hope that no moderator would edit a link that has been referred to numerous times on this forum. Nooti is a highly respected rehabilitator in Great Britain as well as being one of our moderators. She has probably raised more babies than any of us except maybe Terry.

Common sense has to enter into any thing we read. If you have a baby with a "too full" crop then you don't feed it as much.

If any editing is done, Helen should be the one to do it.


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Hello to ll offering help. HEAT-Baby is in a glass fish tank with heat pad on low under tank. I put down a few layers of pads to prevent burning as the glass tends to get too warm. he has a teddy bear wrapped with a blanket. Bear acks as a mother he can snuggle up underneath it but cant get stuck. No drafts are present, all my doors and windows are closed and I heat my house in the low 70's. FOOD-I do heat the food in water, it is on the runny side. I start fresh every feeding neer save unused food. The time it takes to make old food up to temp it seems easier to just make new. I use the syring with a sawed off top method to feed him. I will try the yougrt tonight, guessing you heat that the same way as water. He eats about 8am 4pm and 10ish pm. I've been filling his little crop up, I make him stop eating and wiggle his head straight up to release the air the give him more. I have two boys (human kids) and the same skills from them carry over to animals such as no microwave, check the temp in the bend of the elbow. Charis one of your fellow members is sweet enough to have set time aside today to talk to me and help my get little bird up and running. You all are such a awsome buch of peeps!! Off to feed little guy I hear him in there just a peepin. Thanks


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My Silly Billy Squeaker's crop didn't empty, I had to bleed it but I also resorted to warm water with just a pinch of bicarbonate of soda in it...I think that is what is called baking soda in the US.

The Kaytee packet attributes slow crop to ambient temperature, are his surroundings warm enough? It also recommends stewed apple and gently massaging the crop but *never when it is more than half full*. Letting the crop rest on something warm could help.

The baby's failure to grow is a bit worrying, it isn't because he hasn't been fed enough, it could be due to absorption difficulties or to disease : paratyphoid, perhaps canker too? He is far too young for Baytril to be taken without a danger of it affecting bone growth, but Clavamox is an alternative that could be used.



> Could a Moderator please edit the link that has caused confusion. It really isn't clear.


The best we could do is put a warning on my post that has the link in it, moderators don't have the power to edit the page it leads to.

I think that the reference to feeding 40 mls at two weeks is a typo, because Helen told me she fed that amount when they are 28 days old.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I would hope that no moderator would edit a link that has been referred to numerous times on this forum. Nooti is a highly respected rehabilitator in Great Britain as well as being one of our moderators. She has probably raised more babies than any of us except maybe Terry.
> 
> Common sense has to enter into any thing we read. If you have a baby with a "too full" crop then you don't feed it as much.
> 
> If any editing is done, Helen should be the one to do it.


I agree and I don't want to cause trouble or be direspectful but it is causing confusion. Some folks that have very small birds have misunderstood the instructions and think they should be feeding little babies 40cc. IN the last few months, this has happened more times than I can count. Doing so could be deadly. I will edit my post to say clarify. I think that is a better word for my request.
People that have rescued a baby pigeon or don't have much experience with them, often don't have a clue about what the crop is or what too full means.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Nooti is a highly respected rehabilitator in Great Britain as well as being one of our moderators. She has probably raised more babies than any of us except maybe Terry.


This is true, but like the rest of us she can make typos!  Unfortunately the notebook in which I recorded Helen's advice when I first met her starts with a note that says "4 days old 5mls - a full crop is about half the body mass" and then "at 30 days old 40 mls twice a day will get him by but ideally 40 mls 3 times a day to gain weight."

Cynthia


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Here are pics this morning before his feeding. Should I feed him?


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> I think that the reference to feeding 40 mls at two weeks is a typo, because Helen told me she fed that amount when they are 28 days old.
> 
> Cynthia


That makes lots more sense! 

I just thought it wise to point this out, because someone is looking for help that has never fed a baby before and might take literal instructions, well, literally...beginners can't employ common sense to a siuation if they lack the experience to judge. No one meant any slight to Nooti or her knowlege. It may be a typo, or maybe she really does give them that much at 2 weeks...but I thought it worth cautioning the thread originator to not overdo it.

And to Jollie - I would not feed a baby that had that much food in him already. But, I would defer to those here with more experience than mine to say for sure


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

There is no one on the forum who is a greater advocate of small feedings at frequent intervals for newborns than I am. I agree that to a novice this information could be confusing and I will no longer link that information until Helen can offer some clarification. 

Jolley, your heat sounds fine. We mix formula using very hot water from the tap and right before feeding, mix in about 1/4 tsp of yogurt to that. Stir all very well so there are no hot spots. 

His crop looks to me to be emptying pretty good now. To be on the safe side, wait a couple more hours and then feed him about 10 cc. every 3 hours, of course, dependent on whether the crop has emptied since the last feeding.

He is really cute.


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Yeah he is kinda cute huh. He's grown on me I have to go to work in 30 minutes but I'll go ahead and give him a snack if you think he is empty enough. maybe it will be more empty when I get home at 3:30. Thanks


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Yeah he is kinda cute huh. He's grown on me I have to go to work in 30 minutes but I'll go ahead and give him a snack if you think he is empty enough. maybe it will be more empty when I get home at 3:30. Thanks



he really is a cute little bug-eyed bugger 

waiting a couple hours sounds ok, he'll probably be really glad to see you and your syringe then


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

As was posted, none of us have the ability to edit the feeding information on the IDS site. I will bring the confusion to the attention of the owner of the site, however.

Somewhere here on Pigeon-Talk there is a post from either Lady Tarheel or myself (at least I think it was one of us but might have been Cynthia too) that gives estimated feeding amounts by age in days for baby pigeons. I'll try to find that later or if one of you can find it quicker, please post the link in this thread.

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> As was posted, none of us have the ability to edit the feeding information on the IDS site. I will bring the confusion to the attention of the owner of the site, however.
> 
> Somewhere here on Pigeon-Talk there is a post from either Lady Tarheel or myself (at least I think it was one of us but might have been Cynthia too) that gives estimated feeding amounts by age in days for baby pigeons. I'll try to find that later or if one of you can find it quicker, please post the link in this thread.
> 
> Terry


Thank you, Terry.
Could the post you are talking of be turned into a sticky?


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Here is baby bird new photo (5 mins ago) Does his crop look empty enough to eat more. Gave him 2 cc of the yogurt, he did not like it. He is acting very hungry. Poop has slowed down almost stopped. Also there is a pic of him and his brother, to show his slow growing. I have to give them names baby bird just doesn't work!!
Also what does it mean to make it "sticky"? 

Thanks Landy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi [email protected], 



Crop has room in it, for sure...even though it shows food still being held...


Did the poops ever show any hints of chaulky 'yellow'? Or yellow liquid?


If you have one of those small Coffee Grinders, you can make fresh ground Seed powder, or to whatever coarseness you like, and use it 50/50 with the K-T, and it will pass better and with fewer liabilitys than plain K-T.

Also, you could mix up some ACV-Water, being, say, Two and a Half Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of Water, and use it for mixing his formula...this will discourage replications of a wide range of undesireable bacterias in his Crop...should any be there...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Update: ate 5 cc (he told me he is still hungry!) managed to build "bra" which turned into more of a shirt. But I think it is on right and will work. Made a O bed for him, resting comfortable. Thanks Charis he owes you a bunch of kisses.

Landy


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> ..what does it mean to make it "sticky"?
> Thanks Landy


Glad to see this little one progressing!

Making a thread a "sticky" keeps it floating to the top of the list for easy reference. Lots of useful information there!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Sorry to be a bit unfamiliar with the story of these two babies. If they are, indeed, siblings, I would suspect paratyphoid in the smaller baby. If the parents of these two are in your loft, I would have the parents as well as the small baby tested for paratyphoid, and if found, then would treat the whole loft (and the baby).

Seems like you've got things going your way now with regard to the feedings .. good job! 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Update: ate 5 cc (he told me he is still hungry!) managed to build "bra" which turned into more of a shirt. But I think it is on right and will work. Made a O bed for him, resting comfortable. Thanks Charis he owes you a bunch of kisses.
> 
> Landy



Hi Landy, 


At this age, too, it is very good for them to be in 'Hand Nest', a lot...and even with their sibling in Hand Nest.

Some of their ability to get well or catch up will come from feeling safe and secure and against a real Living being, so, I keep them against my Stomach, under my Shirt, and or in Hand Nest, as much as possible, which sometimes is 24/7, sometimes less than that.


For any margainal ones, or sub-par ones, this can make all the difference.

Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm concerned about crop stretch. It happens when a bird is overfed and the crop stretches beyond its limits and loses the ability to shrink back to normal. When the crop loses that ability, it can no longer empty its contents completely and the residual food can turn sour meaning, it can produce infection and/or yeast. The condition remains permanent and the bird can rapidly become ill.

Forget about how how many CCs' a bird should get because the crop size is different with every type of pigeon and its particular size of crop. If it's not too late, let the contents of the crop empty and then feed less but more often never letting the crop become that large as is illustrated in the pictures.


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

Hi pigeon person,

Thanks for your help. I'm working with someone who is helping me try to fix the stretch issue with a bra thing. He did empty out most of it and I'm feeding half of what I was when I damaged him. My friend from this site is getting me the info one what antibotics I need for him and what rx I need for my other birds. This little one has a long story to his short life. Since I've been following this members instructions I swear he is improving FAST!! I can't say enough how great all of you folks are for spending your time helping others. And thank god for pigeon talk, cause this bird had the will to live, but I needed the guidence to help him. So thank you and all the others, Please keep the help rolling in. I'll update another pic soon, it won't be long and this pigeon will have a whole baby book on line


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2007)

jolley,
If he has crop stretch, I can't see how any kind of a restrictive device is going to help him now. There is no separation between the crop and his other organs like the lungs so if he's restricted, he won't be able to breathe normally. If you use a bra device, you can't guarantee that the food won't be pushed up into the trachea and drown him. If he has crop stretch, leave it alone. If it is, a mistake was made and there will be a loss. We all learn from our mistakes and right now, we don't even know if he has crop stretch. Let the bra thing go because it could do more harm than good.

What medications? We don't even know what's the matter with him aside from a possible crop stretch. It's a very bad thing to medicate a baby when their systems have to get used to the organisms in their environment in order to create a balance they can live with. Giving medications without a true medical need will prevent their bodies from creating that balance. True, he's a lot smaller than his nest mate but is it because he's a runt or because he's sick? How do you tell without getting tests taken on the droppings?

Just to give you an example, if he has a salmonella infection, he would need Baytril but Baytril stops the ends of bones from growing in immature birds and he'll wind up being a very tiny bird. Also, if he has a salmonella, even if he's cured, the bacteria will shed for months and spread to other birds so in trying to save him, he could wind up killing a lot of others. If he's on Baytril, he would need Nystatin because babies are very prone to yeast infections to begin with and with the addition of an antibiotic, he will definitely come down with one. So, let's say you don't use Baytril and use Doxycycline instead. Doxycycline is a bigger yeast producer than Baytril. You don't even know if he has a bacterial infection so why medicate for it? You have to be very careful with these babies because the cure can be a lot worse than the sickness so it's vital to know just what you are medicating for and not just shooting in the dark. 

This is all very circular reasoning and you wind up in a catch 22 situation. If you don't medicate, he could get very ill now and die. If you do medicate and you don't give the right ones, he could die. Your little bird needs a fecal analysis done by a vet because nobody knows if there is a problem with him and what it might be.

I'll tell you right now that if this bird is small because he has a salmonella and you fed both with one syringe out of one cup, the other one is coming down with it too so if you're not sure what he has, if he has anything, you have two problems, not one. Are you also going to medicate the other without knowing if anything is wrong?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

It would be nice if the member who is helping you responded openly on the forum so all of us could benefit from the information you're being given.

There is no benefit to other members when information or guidance is given through phone calls, PM's or e-mails. Often in an emergency many of us have done this but follow up with an online summary of what has been said.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

As some of you may remember, when I did the rescue for the Overpass
Pigeons, there were babies of varying age. We had one person whose
sole responsibility it was to stay at the vehicle and select the placement
of the babies so that they were grouped by age. The very youngest
of the babies had a heating pad set to low and covered w/two towels.
The heating pad had to be turned off though, and 'toggled' on and off,
as it was way too hot when set to low even w/the padding. The main
thing is to remember not to assume that low will be OK, as it frequently
is NOT ok. Thankfully, Jolly5 was aware of this as an issue w/the babies.

Forty cc's of food is a bit much for a baby, I know that there has been
many an adult feral that I've rescued who hasn't been able to handle a full thirty. Common sense can prevail, but it's good to have realistic guidelines regarding the volume of formula or other to be tubed. A sticky in the form of a table is a good idea w/some cautions included such as the issue of
warmth, the concept of allowing the crop to empty between feedings,
and the dangers of over-feeding, slow crop/crop stasis, etc.

Dr. Speer, Dr. Ford and I believe, also Reti's veterinarian, all believe that
it is actually all right to give babies Baytril. Speer was aware of the tests
being referenced and basically said there weren't any indicators that this
held true for birds. I used to avoid giving Baytril to babies, but from the
time that I learned of Speer and Ford's position on the subject, did begin,
w/out incident, to give to babies if needed. It is also said of Paratyphoid and
Baytril that treatment for 3-4 wks will eliminate the carrier state. I'd agree
that giving Nystatin along w/Baytril treatments (I'd add Metronidazole, also)
is good advice.

I generally use a mixture of Kaytee Exact w/a Vegan powder called
"Ultimate Meal" that can be purchased at a health food store. It is loaded
w/nutrition and is grain, legume and seed ground up in an instant powder
format. Here's a link to information on The Ultimate meal:

http://www.iherb.com/productdetails.aspx?c=1&pid=8372&utm_source=shc&utm_medium=c&ppnshpng

To this combo I add Nurture's Nutri Gel and Health Guard, an interesting product that Snowbird turned me on to:

http://www.health-gard.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2&zenid=cda425b0d4ae8b9ed43dca4ea56fdcfc

Using an empty crop as a guideline for feeding, pic in #24 isn't showing 
a baby ready to be fed, rather a baby w/a pretty badly distended crop w/a 
fair amount of food still in it.....probably having a hard time finding it's way
out. I've had the 'bra' method of repairing an overly distended crop
described to me by an avian vet who does alot of work for the
Audobon Society. It works like a charm to support the crop while giving the crop a chance return to it's normal epidermal elasticity. Another mention,
here, when the crop is stretched out beyond it's normal capacity like this,
there is a danger of scar tissue developing in the crop.

Don't know, but could be Charis' hand helping to guide this little
one out of the storm. Being the responsible member that Charis is,
I'm sure that good information is being given and that an update will
follow.

fp


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2007)

fp,
Thanks for posting this information. It certainly updates me on the use of Baytril and the bra support method so I'm glad you furnished it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> *There is no separation between the crop and his other organs like the lungs *so if he's restricted, he won't be able to breathe normally.


I guess I thought that the lungs are in the thoracic cavity but the crop is literally just beneath the skin of the neck above the point where the esophagus, trachea and spinal column enter the trunk of the body at the juncture of the neck and shoulders.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2007)

Please point out in this diagram or any other of your choice where the diaphragm and thoracic wall are in a bird which serves to define and separate the thoracic cavity in avians as it does in mammals.

http://www.harunyahya.com/images_books/images_designinnature/bird_anatomy.jpg


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This thread might interest you. Izzy was hand rearing two baby pigeons and only one 's crop got stretched. The "crop bra" resolved that problem. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8124&referrerid=560

Cynthia


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2007)

Cynthia,
It does interest me very much. Thank you for helping add to my knowledge on this topic.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Please point out in this diagram or any other of your choice where the diaphragm and thoracic wall are in a bird which serves to define and separate the thoracic cavity in avians as it does in mammals.


Well, I sort of doubt that there is one of any value seeing as how it would need to show the relationship of the musculature and fascia to the bones surrounding the superior thoracic aperture. About all I'm saying is that the practical entry into the top of the chest between the middle of the shoulders is relatively small compared to the cross-sectional area of an extended crop. 

It's amazing how large of a mass can be accommodated in the (somewhat) abdominal space like we saw with Ruffles on Misty's thread and that I have seen with a couple of my birds. Their abdomens don't hold back much pressure--they just sag downward and outward. As such, I don't personally see that an overloaded crop has much, if any, potential to exert much pressure inside the thoracic cavity.

It kinda' hit me because I once performed an necropsy on a pigeon that died of some kind of puncture that I assumed was from a hawk some days before it was found. It had walked very weakly into a store and died soon after I picked it up while I was trying to get some medicine (Baytril) for it. Poor thing just didn't have enough life left and the urates were the worst bright bluegreen I've ever seen. Anyhow, did a postmortem endoscopy down the esophagus and was surprised how the bottom of the crop looked--it was almost like a sphincter in the bottom and getting the endoscope through it required more effort than you would have thought. That was basically at the shoulders like you'd more easily visualize with a ready-to-cook chicken.

That's why I thought that.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*This is important!!!*

Eureka!!!! Karen has mentioned in the past that there are two white bits on a squab's shoulders, and when these start to swell it is a sign that the baby has had enough and is heading towards too much. I wasn't quite certain what she meant but in the first photo you can barely see them, in photo of the two squabs the swellings are clearly visible.

Can I keep copies of these photos to use to illustrate this for others that may be hand raising squabs in the future?

This is from the article on crop stretch, it seems that contrary to what I thought overfeeding could be the cause of the baby's failure to thrive: 



> If the crop is overfilled to the point of stretching the skin and muscles, it will hang onto the breastbone, and a portion of the food will remain in the part of the crop that is overlapping onto the breastbone. It will appear very much like a deflated balloon. If left uncorrected, the food remaining in the crop will develop bacteria, which will slow the digestive process even more, *causing weight loss *and possibly eventual death.


Cynthia


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> ...the practical entry into the top of the chest between the middle of the shoulders is relatively small compared to the cross-sectional area of an extended crop. ...was surprised how the bottom of the crop looked--it was almost like a sphincter in the bottom and getting the endoscope through it required more effort than you would have thought.
> Pidgey


That is what I saw several months ago when the vet did an autopsy on the pigeon that had swallowed a piece of metal - it just couldn't pass through the small opening and lacerated the tissue.



cyro51 said:


> ...Karen has mentioned in the past that there are two white bits on a squab's shoulders, and when these start to swell it is a sign that the baby has had enough and is heading towards too much. I wasn't quite certain what she meant but in the first photo you can barely see them, in photo of the two squabs the swellings are clearly visible....
> Cynthia


This would be a helpful indicator. I wish there was a way you could mark this on the photo, since I'm not sure where you mean.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

TerriB said:


> That is what I saw several months ago when the vet did an autopsy on the pigeon that had swallowed a piece of metal - it just couldn't pass through the small opening and lacerated the tissue.


Are you referring to Cassidy as here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=187990

By the description there, I had visualized that the piece of metal had passed through the opening into the shoulders, down the thoracic portion of the esophagus that goes between the bottom of the crop and the proventriculus, through the proventriculus and then had lodged between the proventriculus and the ventriculus (muscular stomach; gizzard). So, I was thinking that the metal object would have been kind of in the dead middle of the bird's body as it would have looked on an X-Ray. You're just saying that it lacerated the esophageal opening at the base of the crop and went on through, right?

Used to be, you could see pictures of the necropsy that Aias did on Coco in this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=193727

...which showed what he'd called "that star/sphincter looking thing" at the base of the crop. When I clicked on that link, it didn't go to those pictures so Aias may have removed them.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I wish there was a way you could mark this on the photo, since I'm not sure where you mean



Does this help?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

cyro51 said:


> Does this help?


Exactly! I agree that this is an excellent and easy way to tell when the baby has had enough to eat.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 



The image with the 'Arrows' which Cyro51 provides, showing the upper Crop which is visable when full enough, from the shoulders...


Really, to me, I would say that for a Baby of that size/age, this is a little too full.


Their Pigeon Parents like to fill them to-the-max, but not so much as one sees there...or not at that age anyway, to quite that extent.


Later, as the Baby grows, Pigeon parents will indeed fill them to where the Crop is so large, so full, so predominant, that the Crop is almost the size of the rest of the Baby, or close to half their total mass...but, this is arrived at gradually, and does not begin till the Baby is somewhat larger/older than this one.


Otherwise, yes, the Crop is outside the Skeletal Body proper, and a full Crop does not in any way impede any other Organs or processes.


http://www.keycreations.com/~rmangile/Pigeons/Skeleton.html


Or...


http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-52981/A-diagram-shows-the-skeleton-of-a-pigeon



Babys at the age and size of the small one, in Nature, would be on a diet composed almost entirely of small to medium Seeds, some small fruiting bodys, and fresh bitter Weeds or other Greens...and Water...and their Crops, being semi-transparent, then look like opaque 'Bean Bags' when full, as well as allowing one to feel the texture of the Seeds through the relatively thin membranes/skin there.


Anyway...ACV-Water may be used for formula mixing to correct or prevent Yeast or Candida infections with 'iffy' Crops, or with Crops already compromised from food-too-thick, chilled Baby syndrome, Crop not emptying well enough, or as may be.


Best wishes everyone..!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I found reference to these bubbles, and an explanation , on a page about hand rearing cockateils:



> HOW DO I TELL MY CHICK IS FULL AFTER A FEED?
> 
> The crop should be nice and rounded it should be quite noticeable that there is food in the crop it should feel spongy. Small bubbles should appear each side of the neck once you see these the chick has had enough to eat. These get harder to see as the chick gets older but by then you should have it under control. If you have feed too much the crop will feel hard. The crop is the buldge that forms in front of the chick after a feed.
> 
> ...


The whole page is worth a read, it recommends Manuka honey and war4m water for slow crop.

http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/lori/ar/handrear2.html


Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, about all I can say is - "well, I never!". This is a great find. You can clearly see the bubbles on the baby in your picture.

Wish we had some way to permanently keep pictures up that help explain things.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> You can clearly see the bubbles on the baby in your picture


The picture belongs to [email protected], but I decided that reproducing it in the same thread was much like quoting a post in a reply.

If [email protected] allows us to use the picture we could have a sticky with a link to a webshot.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> The picture belongs to [email protected], but I decided that reproducing it in the same thread was much like quoting a post in a reply.
> 
> If [email protected] allows us to use the picture we could have a sticky with a link to a webshot.
> 
> Cynthia


Cynthia, 
Jolly is out of town but I asked her if you can use the pictures for a sticky and she has told me that is ok. She asked if you are a nice person and I told her you are. Maybe Terri can create a house account, so that the memory from the house account can be used to upload pictures, preventing the pictures from being lost in the future.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I found reference to these bubbles, and an explanation , on a page about hand rearing cockateils:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's some informational links on Manuka Honey:

http://www.downtoearth.org/articles/manuka_honey.htm

http://www.manukahoney.com/resources/research/secondagent.html

http://www.manukahoney.co.uk/therapeuticuses.html

Pretty interesting...

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Are you referring to Cassidy as here:
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=187990
> ...You're just saying that it lacerated the esophageal opening at the base of the crop and went on through, right?
> Pidgey


Yes, that is what I understood.



cyro51 said:


> Does this help?


Yes, thanks! Great visual reference!


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

*Update on baby pigeon*

Hello to all you checking back on the little bird who almost didn't make it. Little bird is doing well and has received the name "Jem". Jem has made great strides in his little life, he has feathers now and appears to be black, white and some grey mixed in. I believe we've got his crop issues under control, now it's onto his splayed legs. I will post a pic of him very soon if anyone is interested in his growth. I apologize for the long delay of an update, I have been out of town the past two weekends. My mother has been helping me take care of Jem while I was gone. She did a great job, probably better than I would have. And a special thank you to Charis, who allowed me to call her. A conversation via phone is so much easier to make oneself understood and to understand what you are being told. She guided me on his care with so much compassion for this bird that she has never seen, pigeons are truely her calling. Thank you to everyone who responded. You all have great points and advice. I hope to have time to be on Pigeon Talk reading and learning in the near future. My spare time now is tied up raising Jem. Thanks again.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update on Jem .. sounds like things are coming along well. Pictures are always welcome here, so please feel free to send us some!

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Hello to all you checking back on the little bird who almost didn't make it. Little bird is doing well and has received the name "Jem". Jem has made great strides in his little life, he has feathers now and appears to be black, white and some grey mixed in. I believe we've got his crop issues under control, now it's onto his splayed legs. I will post a pic of him very soon if anyone is interested in his growth. I apologize for the long delay of an update, I have been out of town the past two weekends. My mother has been helping me take care of Jem while I was gone. She did a great job, probably better than I would have. And a special thank you to Charis, who allowed me to call her. A conversation via phone is so much easier to make oneself understood and to understand what you are being told. She guided me on his care with so much compassion for this bird that she has never seen, pigeons are truely her calling. Thank you to everyone who responded. You all have great points and advice. I hope to have time to be on Pigeon Talk reading and learning in the near future. My spare time now is tied up raising Jem. Thanks again.


Thank you for the kind words but you and your mom are the ones that implemented the advise and followed through when Jem needed such intesive care. He wouldn't be alive without what you did for him.
Just so everyone knows, I had Jolly put a bra on Jem, made out of vet wrap, The purpose was to lift and support the crop as the crop was greatly stretched from over feeding. [sounds like an ad from a fashion magaizine, sorry.] 
The bra was checked and adjusted daily to allow for growth of the bird.
Jolly started feeding smaller amounts when the crop was empty and more frequently.
Jem was weighed and started on Baytril and canker treatment and the little guy responded very quickly to his treatment. I think he's going to be just fine and will always be that special one in the coop.


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

**update**

Jem is doing wonderful. She is growing like a little weed. She does have a splayed leg, we our working time and a half to correct that. Thanks for checking back. 
Landy Jolley


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## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Hello,
I "discovered" this thread only today. I have read through it with the interest one follows a thriller and now I wonder how the little one got along. Any chance of an update? I'd very much appreciate it. Many thanks, Gladys


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## manukahoney (Apr 3, 2021)

If you’re able to buy *New Zealand Manuka honey* that is of the variety that have this unique anti-bacterial property which has been established in a science lab, then you can be sure that consuming that honey will be more beneficial for you than consuming any other kind of honey.


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