# New Member



## ronhoward (Mar 16, 2007)

I just registered with this forum  and thought I'd best introduce myself. I operate Cockatiel Rescue for the past 6-7 years, so I am familiar with a lot of bird problems, from a parrot perspective. A couple of years ago we moved to Albuquerque, NM, and I started wild bird feeding. Soon, I started finding feral pigeons in my yard, occassionally with problems. Those I could catch, I took to a local wild bird center where all of them were apparently euthanized. After several months, I quickly became irritated with this and expanded my rescue to include pigeons. Since then, around 1.5 years ago, I have been able to catch over 30 feral pigeons and rehab most of those that survived the first 48 hours. I have a "hot box" set up, I know how to re-hydrate, hand feed and give reasonable care. Right now I have a bakers dozen (13), with 6 of them ready for release as soon as the weather warms up. Almost every pigeon I catch has pPMV1 which was leading to starvation and in a lot of cases death (within the first 24 hours after catching). From everything I have read, pPMV1 is quite common for feral pigeons, so I am trying to find if there is any immediate help I should be giving at the first noticeable signs (usually when I catch one)?? I have heard about the vaccination available prior to infection, but that's impossible for ferals. I use a local good avian vet and neither she nor I have happened across any information on treating the active virus. In one case, the pigeon had seemed to pass its viral stage and was recuperating, when about 2 months later, it re-occured. By the reading, this shouldn't have happened, since the pigeons antibodies are supposed to provide protection for around 3-4 months after the virus burns out, but this one time, they didn't. Because of my parrot rescue, then the past 1.5 years with pigeons, I have more than just a basic knowledge of bird care, but I am still missing large pieces of pigeon knowledge I would like to have. I will do whatever I can to save a bird from a needless death. Since a lot of catches come at sundown, on a weekend, is there an initial treatment anyone can suggest until I get the pigeon into my vet (beyond warming, re-hydration and dusting for mites/lice)?? I seem to have read that some people automatically give a couple of medicines immediately after capture and I wondered which and why.

Brought to mind another problem, this one's a bit more difficult. I have a pigeon with a swollen leg joint. I have tried ampcillin for 5 days, then a pause, then again for 10 days, then I tried chloramphenicol-N for around 10 days, finally enroflaxen for 14 days. Nothing had any effect. My vet suggests we just wait and see if his system walls off the problem (infection, looks like bacterial) then she can remove it. Any one had this problem before and found a solution?? I feel his pain evertime I pick him up.

Well, enough for now. If you can be of any help, please feel free to respond. I am not usually able to spend computer time over the weekends since I am very busy with the rescue, but I try to check in at least once daily during the week.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ron and welcome!

Most of what I know about PMV is in this thread: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12250&referrerid=560.

Two of us have found out independently that giving liquid calcium on arrival and during treatment makes all the difference. However, medicating with antibiotics without cause can aggravate the disease, as can withholding water.



> . In one case, the pigeon had seemed to pass its viral stage and was recuperating, when about 2 months later, it re-occured. By the reading, this shouldn't have happened, since the pigeons antibodies are supposed to provide protection for around 3-4 months after the virus burns out, but this one time, they didn't.


This isn't a re-occurence of PMV but happens fairly often. The virus damages the nervous system and nervous symptoms recurr under stress. However, during this "relapse" stage the pigeons aren't shedding the virus.


Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Ron and welcome to Pigeon-Talk! It's wonderful that you have a rescue operation and have been kind enough to include pigeons  

You will find a lot of good information in the link that Cynthia provided with regard to PMV.

As to the swollen leg joint, it could be the result of paratyphoid. Baytril is usually effective against paratyphoid but often requires a long course of administering the drug.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Ron,

Welcome to Pigeon Talk,

Thank you for rescuing our noble feral flock.

You have already gotten some wonderful information from our finest, and I can't add to what they have said.

Ruling out any injuries....and other then PMV or Paratyphoid.... I think alot of people treat birds for worms, coccidiosis and/or canker upon inspection, even if it is suspected, as canker can be devistating. It depends on what your local flock seem to be carrying. 

Canker needs to be treated immediately as it is so devistating, but with worms I would use garlic caps-if the bird is in poor shape instead of the usual wormers. 

Others, will be along with a wealth of information also, when time permits.


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## ronhoward (Mar 16, 2007)

*Thanks for the information, once more....*

Is Baytril a prescription drug or can I get it on-line or from a local drug store?? I'll try almost anything to help cure his problem, time is not important. I have had several pigeons for over a year now, waiting for the effects of pPMV1 to entirely dissapppear so they can be released back into the wild. Thankfully, several are ready.

It appears that two of the pigeons are coupling up, I let one out yesterday for some exercise along with a supposed female, but they started mating so I put one back. Then the female stayed by the males cage all day long. If they are similiar to parrots, eggs may be coming. If they do, what would be the best type of nest to prepare (open box, wood covered, or??) or does it matter and what about nesting materials, grass, wood shavings or ?? I'll have to figure out how to make some changes to accommodate the parents and chicks, but since feral pigeons seems to abandon their young at fledgling, it won't be quite the problem that parrots present. I intend to use the same hand feeding formula (Kaytee Baby Bird) that I use all the time, it seems to provide excellent nutrition for any sick or baby birds.

Thanks for the re-occurence information, that hadn't occured to me and it makes good sense.

Have to get going, time to get all the birds up and their cages cleaned for the morning. Ron


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## ronhoward (Mar 16, 2007)

*Knew I forgot something...*

About calcium. I add oyster sheel, both for calcium and grit, twice weekly to the pigeons food and provide them with a clip on feeder of calcium for everyday use. You mention liquid calcium, I suspect that what I have set up works just as well, but I'd like to know more information about the liquid treatment. I'd like to be as informed as possible so I can make the best choices for my charges. Ron


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Ron and welcome to our forum. You will be an asset now to our "other bird" section as we have members that have cockatiels or come across them. 

As far as the grit, I would like to suggest you keep the grit in a separate feeding bowl. They know when they need to regulate their grit intake.

Thanks for the good work you do and for taking an interest in pigeons.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Ron,

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk, there really is a wealth of information and knowledge to draw on at this site to help you with your ferals.

Here is a link to some supply houses where can order the Baytril from, as you go through these sites, I am sure you will find many other items that may be of help to not only to your ferals, but to your Cockatiels as well.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

All the best,

Ron (as well )


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Ron,
I have not seen much PMV this far north, but I have been thinking about human anti-virals such as Tamiflu. The problem is getting your hands on some as it will require a doctor's prescription. I should start checking to see if it can be ordered online from a mail order supply house. The anti virals basically interfere with the RNA replication process that virus uses. Tamilflu for instance holds itself out as not only good for influenza, but also for H5N1, the avian flu. The drug basically is metabolized in the liver and it is the metabolites that do the job. Pigeons have a large sized liver. It comes in tablet form so it can be scaled down appropriately but it would be mostly guess work working off a pigeon medicine dose table.
Give it some thought and let me have your thinking.
Keep up the good work.


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## BrianNAmy (Nov 2, 2003)

Hi Ron,

We also spend the majority of our time around parrots these days (about 500 of them give or take). We don’t get many pigeons where we are anymore, but the rest of the birds keep us busy. Plus, we still have a few rescues from living in a big city before this.

Of course the problem with any virus is just that; it’s a virus. Antibiotics don’t work very well and pre-treatment is usually the best way to treat it (impossible in ferals, I know). The one danger we always face in any bird we have to treat for a disease, are the secondary infections. Even though they might survive the initial virus, the stress on the system can produce secondary infections that might not have been a problem before. This is when Trichomoniasis or other bacterial infections might show up. Baytril and other antibiotics will help with this.

For our personal flock, we feed them all Garlic (Gel caps small enough for them to swallow, 500-1000mg) and Echinacea (1000mg sprinkled on food) pills over about 5 days whenever they have any additional stress or any one of them show any signs of sickness. It helps fight anything we may or may not see. Of course garlic is good all the time as well.

As for the pigeon with the leg problem…

One treatment we give some birds here that either show signs of arthritis, sore joints, or swelling/bruising caused by injury would be Metacam. A small dose of it daily can be used as an ongoing treatment if it’s not an immediate injury and even if it doesn’t help the problem, I have yet to see it cause any additional problems.

I’d ask your vet about it though since it’s by prescription only.


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## ronhoward (Mar 16, 2007)

*cyro51....*

I have been thinking about what you said on re-occurence and have come up with a problem. In this pigeon that exhibited the re-occurence, he was noticably hot to the touch, a common sign of virial infection. I know that pigeons run warmer (108-112 degrees) then other birds and humans, but this wasn't just warm. If it was a re-occurence of a neurological problem, would his temp have gone out of sight?? I remember having viral infections myself and I remember the fever that came along. Oh, and how do you check a pigeons temp and with what?? Now that I think of it, having a temp guage might be a good idea, since almost all my charges come to me in a serious medical condition. I weight them fairly constantly when they seem out of sorts, but don't have any idea of what to use to check for their temp.

Everyone else, thanks for your suggestions. I will go on-line and try and find Baytril, another helpful tool. 

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The pigeon that you mention could have had an infection that in its turn precipitated the "relapse" or return the return of PMV symptoms.

L . who is a vet, tested her pigeon Appaloosa Girl when she had a "relapse" and found that she was not shedding the virus at that time.

Vindevogel and Duchatel did a lot of research into PMV and published a booklet that is available from Jedds for $ 9.99. It is called Understanding Pigeon PMV.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, Ron, you may already have Baytril because it's Enrofloxacin. There are a few generic names like Enroxil and Enroflaxin, which I think you mentioned above only with an "e" near the end.

When they get one of those boils on a joint, it's an arthritic process and, while we normally call them "Paratyphoid Boils", they can be caused by a number of other bacteria. Many of those are Gram- but you can get some Gram+ that will do the same thing. I've had a bird on Baytril for as long as three months to finally clear it and also utilized a brief period of an Amoxicillin/Erythromycin combination in case the bacteria had gone "L-form". 

It is also possible that the infection was cleared but that the joint damage remained for awhile so I also initiated aspirin treatment to help restore movement by reducing inflammation. Aspirin is dosed extremely sparingly at from 0.5 to 5 milligrams per kilogram of bird, up to three times per day. I usually give a flake about the size of the upper loop of an "e" and about twice as thick as the period at the end of this sentence for a pigeon. It has to be real aspirin and not one of the blends that has Tylenol (acetominophen) in it.

Pidgey


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

ronhoward said:


> I have had several pigeons for over a year now, waiting for the effects of pPMV1 to entirely dissapppear so they can be released back into the wild. Thankfully, several are ready. Ron


I was under the impression that it was never safe to release pigeons affected by PMV.
A rehabber has taken many, many PMV pigeons from us. As far as I know, she never releases them. If I missed something in this thread, I'm sorry. I hope someone can set me straight on this. Cynthia, have you ever released a PMV pigeon? Thanks.

Phyll


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phyll,

I released two into the park where I feed them, they had not been severely affected and made a full recovery. As only one of my pigeons has ever had a relapse and I was supporting the flock I considered that they had as much chance of survival as any released pigeon. But I can't say that I was happy after doing it . I didn't release the third one that I had rescued at the same time because his eye looked odd and I didn't release Bruno because of the way he holds his head when he walks. Both could be signs of residual damage.

The problem that everyone has is lack of space. I have 85 rescues now and have run put of garden for extensions. If it is a case of releasing a PMV pigeon that has, for the time being, recovered or turning an unreleasable pigeon away then I would go for release every time.

Cynthia


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## ronhoward (Mar 16, 2007)

*Thanks to everyone for their help...*

Thanks Pidgey, I did find the reference to Baytril as Enrofloxacin, and that is what I have been using (a rose by any other name). The note that it took 3 months to finally clear up has sent me back to my vet for a larger supply. I intend to start medicating him again tonight and buckle down for a much longer haul then I suspected...thanks so very much for this information.

Cynthia, I'll go on-line a locate the book you mention. I hate to feel so helpless and brain dead whenever I encounter a sick bird.

Ron


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