# Some Interesting Feral Colors/Patterns



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

or at least interesting to me  I posted a few pictures of a couple of ferals that I have that have unusual colors/patterns. The pictures are at the end of the series here: http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06

Terry


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Watch out for the birdnappers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!









We might have to put a couple of SPP's on patrol around your house.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Scooter says he's SICK of sitting on eggs.........he'll volunteer......he's been going a couple of rounds with Mom (me) everyday and he's in tip top shape..


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Actually, the SPPs should be on "watch" patrol to warn against those geneticists who are into unusual color and patterns! You never know when a birdnapper might come calling. 

Of course, if I remember correctly, Pete is one, but he's into CUTE!

Shi
always helpful


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2008)

thems some mighty fine looking colors you got going on there  it will be interesting to see if that youngin will keep the lacing after his baby molt . I find that most of mine lose the lacing after that first molt and the colors become more of one solid color .


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I was wondering if the colors/patterns would change once the adult plumage comes in. Guess we shall see!

Terry


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2008)

yes it would be awesome if they kept the lacing just like having living doylies lol


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

The last ones, the roller, look to be a genetic mosaic, involving recessive red and something else - can't really get a good look at the "bird"

The feral with the washed out checks is interesting -- I don't think it's dominant opal, nor does it look like recessive opal. I also don't quite think it's a dilute modena bronze - though it might possibly be a pale modena bronze (it looks a bit similar to "peach" in Cauchois, but even then I'm not sure.) This is a bird that would be fun to test.

as for the pic of the barred bird with the lacing that you show on the upper body, that's almost assuredly a result of bronze and the juvenile feathers. I've seen that a lot and it vanishes as the adult feathers come in. Sometimes, it's an indication that the bird will show lots of iridesence but not always.

The one with the bronzing in the wing flights, may well be carrying a dose of recessive red or ember, or another bronze.

(I'm also forwarding the pic of the spread wing check to some geneticist buddies in the hobby to see what they think about it.)
Frank


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I see bronze, blue check and mosaic*

One bird looks to me to be a blue check. These can vary and do change somewhat with a moult to adult. Young bird feathers tend to muddy up the patterns and they normally become more distinct with the first moult.

I saw two that I would call kite or at least some form of bronze. One has the typical kite features of red color in the flights and onto the shield area. Kite is quite variable in appearance and intensity and only extreme cases will show bronze in the shield. Another looks more bronze and likely has a gene from Modena bronze or Archangel bronze as it shows in the head and breast areas. Anything can show up in the wild and even new genes show up friom time to time. Ember is one of these genes. Ash red was once one of these.

Mozaic used to be considered to be two sperm fertilizing one egg and the result would be very wild in appearance so it appeared to be two completely different birds from one side to the other. I suppose it is possible that these conditions did occur. With the frequency of their occurance today, I suspect that something else has been discovered and they are merely an odd combination of two genes.

I have seen these birds in Indian Fantails, Rollers, Homers and now ferals and I really believe that this may be something new. The people who have them may very well know something that I do not as my books are 30 years old or more. It is indeed very interesting to say the least. I have a black mottled roller OC that has one red feather and I kept him out of interest in what could make such a thing.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks all for having a look and commenting. The blue check youngster is definitely that and only that, but he has unusual eyes. However had his eyelid at half mast when I took the pic. 

It did finally strike me when I was carefully looking at the roller that it was mosaic .. I'll try to get better pics over the weekend.

I also have some mixes (feral/fantails or racer/fantails) that have colors and patterns that I haven't seen very often. 

I'm sure my birds are a nightmare to those who are purists, but I love them, and some of them are quite lovely to look at. 

The little ferals were posted simply because they were "different" for ferals.

I promise that I won't deluge you here in the genetics forum with my ferals and pet "mutts" 

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Mutts and ferals are fine from a genetic standpoint*



TAWhatley said:


> Thanks all for having a look and commenting. The blue check youngster is definitely that and only that, but he has unusual eyes. However had his eyelid at half mast when I took the pic.
> 
> It did finally strike me when I was carefully looking at the roller that it was mosaic .. I'll try to get better pics over the weekend.
> 
> ...


This is where most new genes or colors come from. The mixing of breeds and even from wild or feral birds. The latest that I know of is ember, found in feral pigeons and bred into many breeds already.

I have always watched wild birds for odd mutations and have seen mostly white feathers that probably came about from inbreeding which results in some form of pied. Pekin ducks and most domestic ducks originally came from the wild mallard. It's hard to imagine one source producing so much variety. The same is true of pigeons. Hard to imagine that some 700 or 800 breeds with such diversity could all come from one wild pigeon breed. We are now seeing various mutations in other ducks that have been extensively bred such as mandarins and wood ducks and probably many others.

I have wondered where the pencil gene came from in pigeons and more specifically in rollers, where I have seen it first hand. Maybe Frank knows. I know that I made birds exactly like this accidentally, when I was 10 years old or so by letting a nun breed with either a feral or a tumbler (I can't remember for sure). Either way, they looked exactly like the penciled rollers that I saw, having never seen them until recently except when I accidentally made them back in the 60's. It makes sense to me that the nun would be used as it was a tumbler before becoming a show bird. The saxon breast apparently has this gene but seems like an unlikely source to breed with rollers.

Please feel free to post your oddballs and mutts any time and I know that I will be very happy to try to decipher them. This is fun to me.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jbangelfish said:


> Please feel free to post your oddballs and mutts any time and I know that I will be very happy to try to decipher them. This is fun to me.
> 
> Bill


Thanks, Bill! Here's a few for you:

http://www.rims.net/2007Jan01/target3.html

http://www.rims.net/2007Feb25/target6.html

http://www.rims.net/2006Oct16/target18.html

http://www.rims.net/2008Jan01/target2.html

http://www.rims.net/2008Jan01/target1.html

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Terry, I'll take a guess*



TAWhatley said:


> Thanks, Bill! Here's a few for you:
> 
> http://www.rims.net/2007Jan01/target3.html
> 
> ...


First indian fan could be brown and bronze but not sure. Genetic brown is very much like genetic silver in appearance but with little hints of tan. If you add other factors or modifiers, it can be more brown in appearance.

Second indian fan looks bronze and maybe indigo. Strong bronze in this bird, much like the roller that I showed. He also looks indigo to me as it is very similar to ash red but darker.

Third bird has bronze, tort and probably grizzle. I've seen these just called tort but to me the bronze is an extra and not part of basic tort.

Fourth, near white bird resembles a saddle mark but the color is probably ash red velvet. Is there silver in the tail or is it all white? Could be recessive red but I doubt it. Saddle mark is just one of those easy patterns to set but many mismarks are made as well and many can look like this.

Fifth bird is blue check pied or splash and looks to have some bronze, maybe kite which is just one of the bronzes.

This is the way I see them. Let's see what anyone else thinks. Thanks for showing them. I especially like the dark bronze fan, pretty bird.

Bill


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Wow, Bill that is great job decipharing coloring/genetics!!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh terry, so so pretty! I just love the '"aspen" fantailX...that color is such a perfect "dove" color....I want to nap her!


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Terry

DO NOT dispose of that feral with the bronzing in the bars. Here's what I got from Axel Sell regarding it - and because of that, I'd like to see some shots of the tail in this bird as well.

*Hello Frank, if the feral shows a tail bar the colouration is identical with some of my lead checker Trumpeter crosses. Lead is a recessive trait that in some cases in combination with Spread produces a lead-grey plumage, in some cases the lightening effect is visible only in the primaries and the tail feathers.

Axel*


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

As for the Indian Fantails

The first is a T-pattern indigo (note that the tail bar is also washed as indigo does)

The second is a Brander Bronze bird

The third is obviously grizzle with bronze (if he's out of the second, then it's brander)

The fourth is a T-pattern check ash-red (likely also carrying some bronze to help darken the ash) (as Bill said, this color Ash Red T pattern with the bronze is known to homer folks as red velvet)

The fifth - well, I'm going to hedge on this one. Obviously a blue check with bronze, but which bronze I'm not too sure of - could be Modena bronze, could be something else.

Frank Mosca


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I was hoping you would jump in to save me*



bluecheck said:


> As for the Indian Fantails
> 
> The first is a T-pattern indigo (note that the tail bar is also washed as indigo does) (What tells you this? I should have picked up on t pattern but the color threw me. I thought it was too light for indigo but I'm new to it.)
> 
> ...


I'm not questioning your accuracy, just wondering how you spot these things so easily. Thanks,

Bill


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

A bunch of beauties, Terry. It's a shame that mama duck only has one duckling left.  But very nice to see the geese taking such good care of the goslings, and the ducks sunbathing with the turtles is always great for pictures. I hope the new pigeons recover quickly.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

bluecheck said:


> Terry
> 
> DO NOT dispose of that feral with the bronzing in the bars. Here's what I got from Axel Sell regarding it - and because of that, I'd like to see some shots of the tail in this bird as well.


This is the bird you are referring to .. yes ?? http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06/target11.html

I'll try to get some additional photos tomorrow.

Terry


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

No Terry, it's the one with the wing spread:

http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06/target17.html


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Bill,
Thanks for the kudos, but it's a result of just a lot of looking and being corrected by people who know lots more than me -- hence my quick note to Axel Sell to find out that bird with the bronze (lead?) markings I mention above to Terry.

The other thing I've done over the years is a lot of reading. I think I memorized the Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds by Levi and the color names, etc. (In fact, the reason i'm even mentioning that is because about 5 years ago I lost my house and then I had most of my pigeon materials and all my books stored with someone. When I went back there a few weeks ago, I'd found she'd moved and her kids who were living there had either sold, trashed, or destroyed everything i'd had there so a life of pigeon records and books I'd managed to get were gone. Ah well). I can at least close my eyes and still see lots of the pictures I memorized. 

Anyway, back to your question -- it's simply a result of seeing lots of birds at shows and in lofts, comparing what is from what you think it ought to be (not always the same thing). Also, I belonged for years to a club that had no dues, no officers, no books, etc., and yet it met every month, except during show season, (still does) for over 20 years. That was the Genetics Club that we had here in the Los Angeles area. It included guys like me (at start a wet-eared novice); Joe Frazier of Giant Homer and Show Racer fame; Layne Gardner, Bill Grieble, The Luden brothers, Leon Stephens, Ku Youn Yu, a lot of the Show Racer guys, some Carneaux folks; fantail, jacobin guys --- so for years, we'd get together and bring birds. Project birds that we were working on to create new colors and/or patterns in a breed; actual new breeds; just fun birds that popped out, etc.

When you have people like that together, who corresponded with Hollander, who were all top breeders in various breeds; well - you simply can't help but get better at recognizing what's there. The best part of it is that you also get good at going _ "Hmm! I haven't got the faintest idea in the world what that is, why don't you test it and bring back some babies and maybe we can figure it out."


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for looking and commenting, everyone. Here's a bit more info on the birds in the last 5 links that I posted.

Aspen: http://www.rims.net/2007Jan01/target3.html

Chessie: http://www.rims.net/2007Feb25/target6.html

The above two birds, Aspen and Chessie, are siblings. Their mother is FanFan (http://rims.net/2005Dec24/target3.html) and their father was Castor (http://www.rims.net/2005Jul24/target16.html).

Cherub: http://www.rims.net/2006Oct16/target18.html

Cherub is the son of FanTastic (http://www.rims.net/2005Nov01/target0.html) and Peep (http://www.rims.net/2005Dec24/target12.html).

Parfait: http://www.rims.net/2008Jan01/target2.html

Pepper: http://www.rims.net/2008Jan01/target1.html

Parfait and Pepper are siblings. Their mother is FanFan(http://rims.net/2005Dec24/target3.html) and their father is my beloved Traveler (http://www.rims.net/2008Jan01/target0.html)

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

bluecheck said:


> No Terry, it's the one with the wing spread:
> 
> http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06/target17.html


Ok, got it! Will get pics tomorrow.

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*You've been around more birds than me*



bluecheck said:


> Bill,
> Thanks for the kudos, but it's a result of just a lot of looking and being corrected by people who know lots more than me -- hence my quick note to Axel Sell to find out that bird with the bronze (lead?) markings I mention above to Terry.
> 
> The other thing I've done over the years is a lot of reading. I think I memorized the Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds by Levi and the color names, etc. (In fact, the reason i'm even mentioning that is because about 5 years ago I lost my house and then I had most of my pigeon materials and all my books stored with someone. When I went back there a few weeks ago, I'd found she'd moved and her kids who were living there had either sold, trashed, or destroyed everything i'd had there so a life of pigeon records and books I'd managed to get were gone. Ah well). I can at least close my eyes and still see lots of the pictures I memorized.
> ...


I only showed once but I did used to go to shows and swaps. We just don't have them in my area anymore. I was beginning to wonder if I was the last guy in the country to keep pigeons until I began searching the internet. It was getting to the point that I had to ask feed stores to special order pigeon feed. 

When I was a kid, there were two local pigeon clubs and two swaps a month through the summer. I am not aware of any local pigeon club except for racing and I've never been into that. Now, there is a small group of people who make up the Illinois Game and Pet Breeder's Society and it is a shell of what it once was. This club had nationwide membership and hundreds of members. I went to the fall show last year and there were about 30 people with more dogs and cats than anything. Their fall show alone used to draw people from everywhere and there would be thousands of birds on display and for sale.

I haven't ever been in one of these social groups that was loaded with genetic nuts, I wish I had been. I did know Dr Hollander (casually and only by phone) and knew his friend Bob Pettit fairly well. Graham Oakford was a good friend of mine and was a genetic pioneer with ducks and bantams. I have always been a student of genetics but even these great teachers would call themselves students as well because new things occur all the time. It never ends.

Your better familiarity with all of these factors comes from experience which is probably the best teacher. I also read alot and I too have nearly memorized the encyclopedia as well as Quinn's book. Still, I forget things and am only reaquainting myself with pigeons as I took about a 10 year hiatus from them when I turned them over to my son. I finally took them back as I could not tolerate the way he cared for them and he kept no records. I was going to sell them all but as I sorted through the flock, I found all of the interesting genes that we had collected and decided to keep a few. I wound up keeping 16 pair of rollers that began with fireballs nearly 25 years ago and some added factors from other rollers. It seems that they are in my blood and I can't stay away from them. I have had them since I was 8 years old and have marveled at pigeons since I could walk and see them in the air.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> Still, I forget things and am only reaquainting myself with pigeons as I took about a 10 year hiatus from them when I turned them over to my son. I finally took them back as I could not tolerate the way he cared for them and he kept no records. I was going to sell them all but as I sorted through the flock, I found all of the interesting genes that we had collected and decided to keep a few. I wound up keeping 16 pair of rollers that began with fireballs nearly 25 years ago and some added factors from other rollers. It seems that they are in my blood and I can't stay away from them. I have had them since I was 8 years old and have marveled at pigeons since I could walk and see them in the air.
> 
> Bill


We have lots more in common than you might think. I've been away from the birds for about 5 years because of things -- I found myself starting to visit bridges and parks just to feed some pigeons. Also, some of my first memories in my life revolve around pigeons -- if I close my eyes, I can still see the blue bar white tailed feral that i kept trying to catch when I was about 5 or 6, and also the blue check wf pd feral that I hand reared and released when I was about 11. I used to watch him raise babies on the roof across from my kitchen window in Somerville MA. I even suckered my college into letting me keep a small pigeon loft on the roof of the bio department -- told them it was "for research" but actually it was to get the two pair of homers I was trying to save that I had been keeping for a few months in a crate under my bed. Right now, I have one pair of Oriental Rollers - a buff hen and an almond buff cock, who unfortunately has turned out to be sterile -- at least they've had six rounds and all are clear. Quite honestly, I've come to believe that if some folks are right and I'm wrong and there is some sort of life after death, well it better have pigeons there to make it worthwhile, or I ain't going.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks for sharing that*



bluecheck said:


> We have lots more in common than you might think. I've been away from the birds for about 5 years because of things -- I found myself starting to visit bridges and parks just to feed some pigeons. Also, some of my first memories in my life revolve around pigeons -- if I close my eyes, I can still see the blue bar white tailed feral that i kept trying to catch when I was about 5 or 6, and also the blue check wf pd feral that I hand reared and released when I was about 11. I used to watch him raise babies on the roof across from my kitchen window in Somerville MA. I even suckered my college into letting me keep a small pigeon loft on the roof of the bio department -- told them it was "for research" but actually it was to get the two pair of homers I was trying to save that I had been keeping for a few months in a crate under my bed.  Right now, I have one pair of Oriental Rollers - a buff hen and an almond buff cock, who unfortunately has turned out to be sterile -- at least they've had six rounds and all are clear. Quite honestly, I've come to believe that if some folks are right and I'm wrong and there is some sort of life after death, well it better have pigeons there to make it worthwhile, or I ain't going.


It does appear that we have much in common. The interest in birds and especially pigeons has gone on for as long as I can remember when I would watch them on the church across from our house. We moved to a farm when I was 8 years old and I found a clipped winged bird in a field. I've had them ever since.

Bill


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> or at least interesting to me  I posted a few pictures of a couple of ferals that I have that have unusual colors/patterns. The pictures are at the end of the series here: http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06
> 
> Terry


your one at http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06/target12.html
./....I have one like that, but he's black. Do you know what that is called?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

bluecheck said:


> No Terry, it's the one with the wing spread:
> 
> http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06/target17.html


Hi Frank and all .. this little bird was a dog attack victim and there isn't any tail to speak of at the moment. It'll be awhile before the tail grows back 

Frank, I will certainly keep this one as well as the other one with the lacing .. that one, I'm just real curious about. As to disposing of them .. it doesn't happen here. They either stay with me, find good homes, or get released to the feral flock at the duck pond park which is a safe place with lots of food and water available.

Who knows what we will find when the Orkin project gets going .. might be interesting.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

TheSnipes said:


> your one at http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06/target12.html
> ./....I have one like that, but he's black. Do you know what that is called?


Nope .. I don't know, but see post #8 in this thread for some info ..

Terry


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Your babies are beautiful, Terry! Thank you for posting the links. And a big 'thank you' to Bill for all the information -- that is a great help! Perhaps you mighy consider a full article on the subject...? (I can always hope!)

Teresa


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Probably indigo*



TheSnipes said:


> your one at http://www.rims.net/2008Jun06/target12.html
> ./....I have one like that, but he's black. Do you know what that is called?


If we're talking about the photo in your post. Racing people call them chocolates.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Better say thanks to Frank*



Teresa said:


> Your babies are beautiful, Terry! Thank you for posting the links. And a big 'thank you' to Bill for all the information -- that is a great help! Perhaps you mighy consider a full article on the subject...? (I can always hope!)
> 
> Teresa


I only get about half of it. Frank is way ahead of me on this and if anyone does a full article, maybe he can. I'm still learning alot about many colors. I may be ahead of a novice on the subject but I've got a long way to go.

Bill


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I'm enjoying this thoroughly. Just looking at examples of birds and having them identified is really helpful. If I see a bird and have to stop and contemplate what it might be genetically, both in color and form, I learn faster than just going to a pre-identified picture.

Margaret


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the compliments to my babies, Teresa!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Heres one of 'my' outside Ferals...she is a light sort of "Kraft Caramel" color check...over off White to very pale Grey on her sides and undersides.

Not a very good image...her colors and their contrast in real Life are quite vivid and clear, but look muddied here. 

She is drinking Water on Gravel, but it looks like 'ice'...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Thanks for the compliments to my babies, Teresa!
> 
> Terry




Lovely all round..!


I especially like the tan fringed Feathers one the one there...


Oh! Wait-a-minute, do I see more 'Turtle Doves' there in the 1st Image?


I think I do..!


Wow...

Sure wish we had those here...


...sigh...


Love,


Phil

Turtle-Dove-less, in...

L v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Another ( feral now...was born in the Shop Ceiling, and fledged of course, and who I had in here for a little while while she grew up a little more, prior to release...)

She had Feral parents...neither of whom are White...


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Phil, both are interesting birds*

The first looks like brown check to me but I wouldn't bet my life on it. It could be some sort of bronze or even something else. I'd like to hear what Frank or someone else would think.

Second bird looks very similar to a saxon spot or swallow with the black snip on the forehead. No matter what, it's black anyway. What does the rest of the bird look like?

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

It's a brown check, and if it's out of two blues or ash-reds, it's a hen with the brown coming from daddy. I've seen very, very few browns in the ferals in my area over the past 40 years or so, but I have seen a few that I was sure were brown and not silver check (dilute blue check). In fact, back around 1968 or so, there was an older type brown Strasser hen flying and living with a wild flock for about three or four years as I remember now. I don't know if she was the only source of brown around here but I wouldn't doubt that some of the ones I've seen over the years might have been her great-great-great granddaughters.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jbangelfish said:


> The first looks like brown check to me but I wouldn't bet my life on it. It could be some sort of bronze or even something else. I'd like to hear what Frank or someone else would think.
> 
> Second bird looks very similar to a saxon spot or swallow with the black snip on the forehead. No matter what, it's black anyway. What does the rest of the bird look like?
> 
> Bill



Hi Bill, 



1st one, the light Caramel color Check is really pretty...it is a quiet color-scheme certainly, but beautiful definitely.


I forgot what the rest of the 'White' with 'Bindi' one looks like...this image is from about 8 or 9 months ago.

I will see if I can find her in the feral Flock later.


Her ( 'White' one ) parents used to have Babys which looked like them, ( pretty Pigeons, lots of irridescent on their necks and crops, various Blues, Greys Pale Greys Black, white Primarys, the Parents and their prior Babys all looked very much alike every time, ) then, about 9 months ago, consistantly, each pair of Babys has one Baby which is 70 - 90 percent White ( with the remainder either black or some shade of Grey ) and, the other Baby being a Blue Bar sort ( darker head and neck and Crop, lighter Body, ) with no white anywhere. 

Both parents have White Primarys with some tiny bits of white elsewhere.


Most of the mostly White Babys, have had little Black areas on their forhead, as this one did, if usually smaller. 


Phil
l v


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Terry,



If I did this right, here's a pic of the "lead" check that Axel Sell mentioned - 

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/lead.html


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hey Frank*



bluecheck said:


> It's a brown check, and if it's out of two blues or ash-reds, it's a hen with the brown coming from daddy. I've seen very, very few browns in the ferals in my area over the past 40 years or so, but I have seen a few that I was sure were brown and not silver check (dilute blue check). In fact, back around 1968 or so, there was an older type brown Strasser hen flying and living with a wild flock for about three or four years as I remember now. I don't know if she was the only source of brown around here but I wouldn't doubt that some of the ones I've seen over the years might have been her great-great-great granddaughters.


I thought brown but wondered why this one is so much more brown in color than my brown check hen. What modifier or other factor makes this true?

As to brown in ferals, I'm sure it's a rarity but I had one way back in the 60's that I took from the nest (off a church window ledge) at about 3 wks of age. I thought it was an unusual color and wanted it for my flock of mutts. I named her Goldy as I thought she was an unusual golden color. A brown barred hen. I can't remember producing any brown birds in my flock as a kid but I completely misunderstood this color and always thought it was silver with some other modifier until you and some others cleared it up for me. I'm sure I had some and just didn't know it.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Bill,
Brown with bronze usually make the brown more "golden" and I find it very attractive in spread and or check. I'm not a real big brown fan myself, though one of the most beautiful brown stuff I've ever seen were Ice Pigeons that Bill Hawkinson had created in brown. They were absolutely stunning.

A few classic breeds that have brown are: Silver Kings (Actually brown bars); brown nuns; and you will sometimes find brown Dragoons and Carriers as well.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Some breeds can produce brown BUT the breed standard does not reconize it. That is a fault for show So you have to enter the bird as a dun. I raised 2 good deep colored brown fantails. But had to call them dun. And they were chocolate brown. Not dun colored. From a cream cock over a black hen. Depth in brown agin is in breeding and the breed color Some poeople mistake silver check birds as brown checks. I would think a brown feral would have a past from some domesticated breed.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Absolutely correct! For many years, and even today, there is a confusion between brown and dun -- but then, up till a relatively few years ago as pigeon breeding's gone, no one even knew there WAS a brown pigment.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

bluecheck said:


> Terry,
> 
> If I did this right, here's a pic of the "lead" check that Axel Sell mentioned -
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/lead.html


Wow! That sure looks familiar! Gorgeous little pigeon! Is he breeding ferals to try and get this genetic thing down pat? That looks like a little feral to me. Just curious.

Truly, I am seeing lots of ferals with what to me is brown in the feral flock at the duck pond. You might want to make a road trip one day, Frank, and have a look for yourself. I'll try to get pictures but don't have good enough camera equipment to do a decent job of it .. need a really good telephoto lens and don't have one or a camera that will support one.

Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Terry*



TAWhatley said:


> Wow! That sure looks familiar! Gorgeous little pigeon! Is he breeding ferals to try and get this genetic thing down pat? That looks like a little feral to me. Just curious.
> 
> Truly, I am seeing lots of ferals with what to me is brown in the feral flock at the duck pond. You might want to make a road trip one day, Frank, and have a look for yourself. I'll try to get pictures but don't have good enough camera equipment to do a decent job of it .. need a really good telephoto lens and don't have one or a camera that will support one.
> 
> Terry


I would think you are seeing more ash red and bronze as these are very brown in appearance. There is also alot more of these scattered into feral birds. Ash red came from them and bronze is in many breeds. Genetic brown in pigeons is somewhat misleading as the brown color is very subtle and as Frank and Robert mentioned, it was often mistaken for dun or silver. I did this myself for many years and only wondered why they were alittle different. Apparently, it is not even accepted as a color for show.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks Frank*



bluecheck said:


> Bill,
> Brown with bronze usually make the brown more "golden" and I find it very attractive in spread and or check. I'm not a real big brown fan myself, though one of the most beautiful brown stuff I've ever seen were Ice Pigeons that Bill Hawkinson had created in brown. They were absolutely stunning.
> 
> A few classic breeds that have brown are: Silver Kings (Actually brown bars); brown nuns; and you will sometimes find brown Dragoons and Carriers as well.


I figured that the bird must have bronze to be so brown and should have said so. My first impulse was to call it a brown but I began to question myself and wondered if I should have just kept my mouth shut.

I would love to see the brown ice pigeons, sounds very interesting. I had ice pigeons that came from Hummel back in the 70's and 80's. Also had saxon field pigeons from Gary Romig who remade them from saxon whitetails and ice pigeons. He did a great job of it and all colors were excellent. Had recessive red, recessive yellow, black and blue, all white bars and spangles. Very pretty birds and I wish I had never gotten rid of them. He claimed that they were an old breed that had vanished and he decided to make some for himself. I don't know what ever happened to Gary as I haven't seen his name associated with any clubs. He may never have been in them.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You know that lead check to me is not a new color It sure looks like a bronze tri Modena marking but not as well marked. Bronze T patern on blue bronze tri. Wonder if the patteren was made off the modena.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Looks similar anyway*

Lead is a new one on me too but then so are some other colors of today.

This one looks very much like blue check with bronze. I wonder what makes it lead.

Sometimes, I wonder if new things are not just a combination of many old things that present themselves as something new. Only test breeding can prove them out and guys like Sell, Hollander, Mosca and Quinn are certainly bigger experts than most of us. For now, I have to put my trust in them.

How do you like that Frank? Look who you are surrounded by.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Take a look at a bronze tri modena. Then ask yourself How this can be a new color. As for color there has not been to many new colors that has camew along in a while. And some of the new colors reconized per breed look like an altered color from another breed. So really not new just reconized as a new color for that breed. . Which means it has became excepted in the breed standard. I still not seeing the bird eye to eye but as a picture see no new color at all just a new name. Now eye to eye if the bird is not blue but gray with bronze then it jusy may be a new color setting. But blue to bronze it is not.


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

I like to think all ferals are beautiful in an interesting way. Surely my Garye was!  But yeah, some of the most beautiful pigeons I've seen were ferals and you do have some interestingly pretty ones out where you are. I sometimes just like to watch the flock here to see the ones who are different. Especially the redheads.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I can't say if it's new or not*

All I can say is that the lead gene looks very much like some others. But then so do many other colors and genes. To simply say that it is not new, I don't think we are able to do, only that it looks like something we've already seen.

Ferals produce new things over time because they have such an enormous gene pool and sometimes two or more genes will get together and produce something that no one has ever seen or at least taken notice of. Sometimes a group of ferals may have a very small gene pool as well and may be more likely to actually mutate to something that is in fact new. This may be the case with ember as according to the experts, it is a new gene.

I don't know which is happening with some of the new discoveries but I suspect that some of both of these things are being set in motion and it takes a fair amount of time to sort them out.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi all,

Just as a reminder, here's what Axel Sell originally wrote me when I asked him about the feral pic that Terry posted.

"Hello Frank, if the feral shows a tail bar the colouration is identical with some of my lead checker Trumpeter crosses. Lead is a recessive trait that in some cases in combination with Spread produces a lead-grey plumage, in some cases the lightening effect is visible only in the primaries and the tail feathers."

Note that he identified "lead" from a Trumpeter cross. One thing we all have to remember is this: There are many "look alikes". Also, we have about 4000 years of pigeon breeding that we're dealing with. Also, breeders over the centuries have simply put together birds that look alike and/or that they think might produce what they want -- no matter what the underlying genetics were.

Don't forget it was only fairly recently (as pigeon breeding goes) that we separated out brown from silver; indigo from bronze and red; Faded from Almond, etc. We are still in the process of doing that - and in separating out what we consider in some cases to be one-thing. Modena bronze is turning out to be more complex than we imagined.

Dr. Sell seems to be finding that "lead" is something unique and something that can be tracked and may well be something that in combination with other mutations produces yet another phenotype (how something looks)

Can the feral that Terry found be lead? Most definitely. How could it have gotten there? A few different ways - e.g., it could be a new mutation to lead in some past bird in that area. It left offspring that spread the gene around into the population and this particular bird is the result of two of those birds carrying the mutation and producing this one. The original mutation may have happened years ago. It could be the result of a lost show bird or other pigeon that carried the mutation and it put it into the gene pool. It could also not be a lead bird. We need breeding tests to prove or disprove that. All I know is that it looks different enough that I wanted to get others opinions on it, which is why I sent this pic all over the world the first night I saw it.

If you'd like to see pics of other new (let me rephrase that -- newly recognized) mutations that were found also in ferals, check out some of the pics at Thomas Voss's site. If you don't speak or read German, here's the way to get there.

Go to: http://members.aol.com/tvoss1/genetik/index.htm

Click on the link to the left that says: Erbfaktoren 

That will bring up a page with various colors listed on the left. Click on each one to see the pictures. Rusty and rubella were both found in ferals in Austria, I believe.

Notice that rubella and spread in combination can easily be confused with spread and reduced or even spread and dominant opal, in some cases. Look also at the rubella gehämmert (rubella checked) to see how it might be confused with recessive opal.

Rusty could also be confused with Faded in some cases.

I wish Thomas had pictures of platinum up - that's something that Axel Sell found in Pomeranian Eye-crested Highflyers.

BTW - if any of you read German (there are some English pages there as well) check out Axel's website at: http://www.taubensell.de/


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Frank, 
Thanks for posting the links to Sell and Voss's sites. I don't speak German but there is enough English to be able to get the gist of what the birds are.

If you breed Terry's bird, please let us know what the young are. Would you breed it to a clean blue bar to eliminate as much as possible other stuff that might creep in?

Margaret


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

In a test cross like this, yes I would first find a good clean blue bar. (Okay, I know that if you can get it that you should use a wild rock pigeon but getting one of those is pretty expensive and almost impossible to get into the country ) so we use the normal blue bar and hope that it's as close to wild-type at the locus where the mutation has happened as we can get for this. (_I'd also use blue because I don't yet know if there is any phenotypical interaction with ash-red or brown -- that would be tested later_) 

I'd cross; raise a number of young; interbreed the young and also pair them back to mom and dad. count the phenotypes; and see what comes out.

If this IS lead; and if as Axel says that lead is a simple recessive. Then if we did the above matings; we should find that in F1 we should get 100% of the young are either blue bar or blue check (since the unknown is check). In the backcross to the unknown, we should show about 50% that are the lead phenotype and 50% are the wild-type (non lead); in the brother x sister crosses, we should show 75% wild-type phenotypes (with 50% of those being heterozygous for lead) and 25% of the birds being lead (either bar or check)

If the numbers are differently skewed (after raising a number of birds), then we might have something different -- e.g., let's say that in the brother x sister matings, we got this "new" color in hens only, but never any cocks, then we could begin to suspect that the trait was sex-linked and not a simple recessive as lead appears to be, etc.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

re lee said:


> You know that lead check to me is not a new color It sure looks like a bronze tri Modena marking but not as well marked. Bronze T patern on blue bronze tri. Wonder if the patteren was made off the modena.


You're correct, Lee. There may well be a possibilty that Modenas actually includes lead as one of its factors. All Axel is saying is that lead is a unit factor that he has found to breed true. It's sort of like saying that indigo, which was recognized in Carneaux crosses at Palmetto back in the 30's just looks like some of those "Syrian breed stuff". It's not that it hasn't been around for possibly millenia. It's just that we are now, for the first time, simply recognizing that it may be something "newly recognized" for being a separate mutation and just part of what we, as breeders, have mixed into the breed to get it to look the way we want it too.

Now, I don't know for a fact that lead IS part of the Modena look. It may well be something very different. I'd like to read Axel's research to find out.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

bluecheck said:


> You're correct, Lee. There may well be a possibilty that Modenas actually includes lead as one of its factors. All Axel is saying is that lead is a unit factor that he has found to breed true. It's sort of like saying that indigo, which was recognized in Carneaux crosses at Palmetto back in the 30's just looks like some of those "Syrian breed stuff". It's not that it hasn't been around for possibly millenia. It's just that we are now, for the first time, simply recognizing that it may be something "newly recognized" for being a separate mutation and just part of what we, as breeders, have mixed into the breed to get it to look the way we want it too.
> 
> Now, I don't know for a fact that lead IS part of the Modena look. It may well be something very different. I'd like to read Axel's research to find out.


You sure do not see the carneaux as much or at all in the shows these days. The carneaux was also used in several breed croos in the past to help further develop the breed. Old red carneauxs was a popular color In the day.. Utility breeds Have dropped to the smaller show classes over the years. BUT then some of the smaller classes of the past has brought new people in. I think in some it is competing as some breed have great stiff compitition While others have that average compition. Same with race birds there are some top racers and alot of average racers.


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