# pigeon with swollen inflamed hock



## bibzou (Oct 8, 2014)

PC, a feral pigeon, was the object of my thread “Pigeon coughing, runny nostrils”.
3 days into the Flagyl/Baytril treatment he had stopped coughing. A week later, droppings fine , eating, preening. Kept it caged because was too thin for release.

Now a new problem, so new thread.
6 days ago, PC started hopping on right leg. Left leg looked painful, laying on his belly.
I could not feel a break, skin unbroken, no bruise. Both legs looked the same.
4 days ago I noticed swollen hock .Next day, swelling worse, so off to the vet.
Vet found an old injury under the win, full of gunk, (animal attack). Wound cleaned and bird put on Clavulox. Vet thinks that hock swelling will disappear as slight infection in wound is treated.
After 3 days on Clavulox PC spends all his time on his belly, hock still very hot and red, no improvement at all. 
What is going on? With all due respect to vet experience, I cannot see the connection between a healing hole under the right ”arm pit” and the swelling of left hog.
Can anyone of you explain ? Puzzled and sorry for the bird. Thank you.
I have attached a photo. Hope it works...


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Maybe you should make a radiograph as it still can be a broken bone, even if you don't feel it, or, very probable, a dislocated joint or an infection of bone (osteolysis) or articulation (artritis). The last two need longer antibiotic treatment. If artritis, idealy would be to use Fosfomycin, as this antibiotic has the smallest molecule, able to penetrate the articular capsule so the bird will cure fatser. I cured two birds with artritis with Fosfomycin so I can testify that it works.


And the infection may need a stronger treatment, injectable antibiotics for 2-3 days, Lincospectin or Enrofloxacin.

The fact he stays on belly can be because of broken bone, pain, as well as because of lack of calcium, vitamin A or D3, or because a disease like coccidiosis attacked the neuronal tracts that command the leg movement. But more probably is related to the swelling in a way.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Unlikely that it is broken as you say it was fine when u got the bird, if inflammation no matter what from go back to vet and get some medicam for that, works AMAZING for both pain and inflammation. If it was a salmonella type swelling in the joint, the baytril should have taken care of it. As well as the second course of meds. So for sure an antinflammatory will help. Also have a REALLY good look around move the feathers and see if you see even a pinhole of an injury. Even if broken, with wrapping for support with any vet tape or hockey tape, no need to spend the money on xrays. I would wrap and give anti inflammatory meds and see how it goes after about 4 days.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

AND since you were JUST at the vets, you should be able to just CALL them and ask for those meds witout having to pay for any further visits. AND Im surprised vet knowing it had attack and wing injury AND that it has leg pain and is limping that he didnt OFFER the medicam for pain to begin with, what kind of a vet is that?!


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

CBL said:


> Unlikely that it is broken as you say it was fine when u got the bird, if inflammation no matter what from go back to vet and get some medicam for that, works AMAZING for both pain and inflammation. If it was a salmonella type swelling in the joint, the baytril should have taken care of it. As well as the second course of meds. So for sure an antinflammatory will help. Also have a REALLY good look around move the feathers and see if you see even a pinhole of an injury. Even if broken, with wrapping for support with any vet tape or hockey tape, no need to spend the money on xrays. I would wrap and give anti inflammatory meds and see how it goes after about 4 days.


It's a myth that salmonella causes most of the infection of joints. In 95% of cases is Staphylococcus Aureus and it didn't pass so easily, it needs weeks or months of treatment with antibiotics, with pauses between each period of 3-5 days of treatment. 

The symptoms the thread oener describe point out rather to a bone or articulation infection, which are both aparent on x-rays.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

AndreiS said:


> It's a myth that salmonella causes most of the infection of joints. In 95% of cases is Staphylococcus Aureus and it didn't pass so easily, it needs weeks or months of treatment with antibiotics, with pauses between each period of 3-5 days of treatment.
> 
> The symptoms the thread oener describe point out rather to a bone or articulation infection, which are both aparent on x-rays.


Based on your info I would still just treat with antibiotics and medicam to relieve pain and inflammation. Can a vet to a scraping to find out what type of potential infection it has? Or just crap shoot and prescribe a general antibiotic? 

Sounds like a pain. The vet should re examine the bird and come up with a definitive answer, I would even venture to say blood test for diagnosis instead of xrays, xray may show infection but blood would tell what type, so why pay both.


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## bibzou (Oct 8, 2014)

Today I took PC back to the vet for X-ray. No bone broken . It is an infection, may be in bone, probably due to the same (cat?) attack that wounded the wing.. Vet left the bird on Clavulox. Says it will be long recovery, if any.

From AndreiS’ comments I have noted to make a pause between 5 days treatments.
CBL is right, the bird should get treatment for pain and inflammation. I have Meloxicam 1.5mg/ml oral suspension that was given for another bird. I will give it a careful try.
Any good link for safe, easy wrapping ? My Google search unsuccessful. Found only splinting techniques, heavy stuff.
The Vet is a good person, 95% cats and dogs. She knows it is a feral pigeon so does not charge me for consultation, just drugs or X-ray.
I try not to take too much of her time and I forget to ask many questions...


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

bibzou said:


> Today I took PC back to the vet for X-ray. No bone broken . It is an infection, may be in bone, probably due to the same (cat?) attack that wounded the wing.. Vet left the bird on Clavulox. Says it will be long recovery, if any.
> 
> From AndreiS’ comments I have noted to make a pause between 5 days treatments.
> CBL is right, the bird should get treatment for pain and inflammation. I have Meloxicam 1.5mg/ml oral suspension that was given for another bird. I will give it a careful try.
> ...


Great, glad you got a diagnosis, good work . If you want, can you call the vet back and ask for a bit of 'vet wrap' it is a crinkly tape that comes in many colors and sticks to itself, very user friendly and easy to cut off. Just make sure that you do not do too much stretching of the tape if at all. I will bet within a few days of the medican, u wont even need to tape it. That medication is great and works fast. Did u ask the vet for the right dosage of the medicam to administer.
Please keep us updated as to the recovery and I see no reason why she should not, u had her on meds, hopefully the break between meds did no harm but ya, this is a VERY important lesson for all who disregard the fact that cat attack even if u cant initally see an injury, it is crucial to get on meds 'just in case'. I find alot of people find a bird, see nothing obvious from cat attack and dont do the precaution of meds and the bird dies 24 hours later, people left wondering why and THIS is exaclty why. Im so glad you got her, got her on meds, have extended the duration and will most likely have a good outcome. Good on you. Thanks for doing right by this bird. Glad the vet gave you a break on price too, nice of her aftar all, you ARE doing a good thing for the critter.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I would say to replace Clavulox with injectable antibiotic. You can gives series of three days shots (1 shot / day) with Lincospectin, 0.1 ml / shot (no more, as you may read on some forums or sites). Then make a week pause and again. 

Oral antibiotics are not helpful for bone infection, I talk from experience. I had a pigeon identified with osteolysis at x-ray. The vet gave me some oral antibiotics liquid (didn't say what but I suspect Baytril) which I gave for ten + ten days to no effect. Then I made a month pause and afterward I noticed worsening of the condition. I made another x-ray which revealed that the infection was now more extensive, reaching neighbour bones. Then I started the Lincospectin treatment and got significant improvement: bird started to stand and walk, while before was laying on belly all the time. Unfortunately, she escaped before I finished the treatment and I don't think she survived outside. I haven't made blood or other kind of analysis to identify what bacteria was, in fact I wasn't sure even if is a bacteria (can also be viral or other cause) but I suppose is the same staphylococcus, which I've read (on the site of a drug factory, which made tests on hundreds of birds) is the most frequent pathogen (up to 95%) of bone and articulation infections. Staphylococcus is pretty hard to eradicate, but on other hand it doesn't replicate as fast as other bacteria, leaving time to fight it.


The problem with prolonged antibiotic treatment is that almost invariably the bird gets candida. So in order to reduce the advancement of candida, the antibiotic treatment must be accompanied by acv (raw apple vinegar) put in water, by daily administration of probiotics, also by vitamins given every few days and natural remedies against fungi, like garlic. With all these, is pretty sure that candida will appear so check the bird's mouth on a daily basis for white spots, or, if you notice her coughing, give a Fluconazole treament: 1 mg / day for 1-3 days. Candida can also manifest by sneezing, but sneezing can have many other causes. 

Also, give the bird calcium + D3 vitamin, and vitamin A for bone reconstruction. 

The administration of acv, probiotics, vitamins, calcium, should be a constant for any bird, not only for sick ones, as these fortify the organism. Without them, the diseases may be temporaily cured but will relapse again and again.


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## bibzou (Oct 8, 2014)

Thanks AndreiS and CBL for all useful info, all noted carefully. Meloxicam helped immediately, PC is now standing gingerly on 2 legs, so slight improvement on pain front. Hock still very hot red and swollen. No improvement there. Tomorrow, quest for vet with Lincospectin..Did not realise what I was signing for when I took that pigeon..


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

bibzou said:


> Thanks AndreiS and CBL for all useful info, all noted carefully. Meloxicam helped immediately, PC is now standing gingerly on 2 legs, so slight improvement on pain front. Hock still very hot red and swollen. No improvement there. Tomorrow, quest for vet with Lincospectin..Did not realise what I was signing for when I took that pigeon..



Lol you done good, dont regret it. I knew the medicam will help alot and on the right meds for the duration should make a big difference, give it time now. Im so glad you DID sign up to help  Good on ya mate lol


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## bibzou (Oct 8, 2014)

Hi everyone.Took PC to another vet, wanting more aggressive antibiotic treatment. Vet said after 11 days of swelling and inflammation, even if we cured the infection, the joint is likely to be already damaged and will not be fully functional again. The bird will not be 100% fit, probably in pain, and when released will have short life and brutal end. Save myself time and money, spare him the current pain in his leg (hobbling) , the stress of the confinement, have him euthanized...
This was not an avian vet, a cat and dog vet, but still she could be right. Grabbed the bird and ran.
I can start the Lincospectin tomorrow, but what if she is right ? What is fair to the bird ? The joint not getting better, not worse, still looks like on picture below. No improvement after 10 days on Clavulox. 
Bird not on belly all the time, hobbles around and preens standing, thanks to Meloxicam. 
*Have any of you seen a bird with a prolonged inflammation of a joint who recovered fully ? (given adequate treatment of course)*


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

As one member said here a bone infection may take awhile longer to heal. EVEN if there is inflammation for a lifetime, who cares, the medican can help it with pain and it can live a happy life with you as a pet. Vets are WRONG all the time an opinon is just that THEIR opinion. I say treat longer, give probiotics WITH the meds. Even if a gimp leg and the bird is happy and preening, then it feels 'good enough' to NOT die or be killed by a vet with an attitude. I have a hen with an eye problem that looks gross and painful, she is 8 of 7 years that is her life expectancy. She is doing great, sees fine and the more I leave it alone the better she gets and is. I consulted with a human eye doctor who dignosed it as some type of tear duct cyst that he says cannot be removed and HE consulted further with a eye surgeon. So I leave her be, she is happy in coop with her flock and thats it, so who are we or anyone to decide if they can tolerate life. I have another bird with a twisted leg from a wire strike, looks gross, she is the happiest bird alive, drives me nuts for peanuts and scratches on her head, hounds me daily for affection. She doesnt know she shouldnt be walking on that leg lol. Just sayin.....

Even if she limps or rests on her belly more than a regular bird, who cares, so what, let her just BE, and be happy  Not unlike a human with a chronic pain or non pain condition, let her live her life and enjoy her. Thats all that simple. Now if you said, she is in agony, refuses to eat, wont drink is listless and going down hill or dying, thats another story.

P.S. my grandmother had a bumb leg, all black and blue, .......we kept her lol. She just wrapped it for her lifetime and died of other causes.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

As I said, I have a bird that recovered from wing joint inflamation. Before she could not fly and now she can.

If is joint and not bone infection, Clavulox is even less useful. The vet may be right in that the bird was too long on antibiotics. 10 days is too much.


I would say, make a pause of five days and start a treatment of 4 days with Fosfomycin, or, if too expensive ornot findible, 2-3 days Lincospectin. After that, 7 days pause and again the same thing and so on if you see improvement. If not, stop because is something else. And during the antibiotic treatment and afterward, give probiotics (from drugstore), hepatoprotective supplement (from vet drugstore), vitamins (B, A). Probiotics are the most important.

I can guarantee that Fosfomycin will work but not sure about Lincoscpectin (as I said, Lincospectin proved efficient in a case of bone infection).


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

AndreiS, I agree but have one querry, I dont believe the 10 days is long at all. Eg: one u.s. vet told me that I can medicate for salmonella for 10 days then vaccinate then a further 10 days on meds totalling 20 and some meds like doxy for ornithosis is even 45 days. So if this is a bad infection, I think a good 7 days WITH the probiotic and I cant state that enough at the SAME time IN the medicated water is huge, that way NO candida or thrush and you can keep bird on the meds as long as necessary to kill infection. It may have been a good idea to aspirate the joint fluid and culture it to get the EXACT diagnosis and meds.

Something to think about. So my opinion respectfully is to do a further 7-10 of the baytril or the meds Andrei says with probiotics and then do as you say and go off and on with different meds, EVEN now substitute your meds for the baytril but DO use them until you see the angry red is gone.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Baytril is known to affect the joints so in this particular case I think is not recommended.





Check this page about the problems with Bayril:
http://www.melbournebirdvet.com/baytril-the-myths-and-reality.aspx


Some excerpts:
_- Treating pigeons with ‘Baytril’, even healthy ones, for more than 4 days almost invariably causes a yeast infection (candida). 

- Treating young growing pigeons with ‘Baytril’ may permanently deform their joints. ‘Baytril’ can interfere with cartilage deposition on the surface of young growing joints leading to permanent deformity. This side effect is dose dependent and so young pigeons and in particular nestlings should only be treated with extreme caution and obviously only when necessary.

- Treating hens that are about to lay with ‘Baytril’ has been associated with the embryos in those eggs subsequently dying.

- Treating pigeons with fungal infections with ‘Baytril’ makes them worse._


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Andrei have read all that before BUT as I said, probiotics WITH that negates all the bad stuff that MAY or may not happen. I gotta tell ya buddy, I have used baytril for years and not once have had any yeast or issues. But I dont mind what antibiotic they use as long as it works. I have tons here and my fav that works best so far are Doxy and Tylamox. Baytril has worked well for me in many cases and is drug of choice by vets. My drug of choice is the tylamox if bug is susceptible to either, I chose it. I keep a hose of meds here even from farm supplies. The tetracycline meds work VERY well for ecoli. Anyway. Whatever helps.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Does tetracyclines work better than amoxicillin? I used to use Enrofloxacin (baytril) for e-coli and at the advice of John, I started using amoxicillin, with better results.


E-coli is a regular problem at me, as the environment is contaminated and some immunodepressed pigeons make it again and again. It disappear after a single administration of drug, anyway.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

E coli is ever present in the bowel and normal, only when growth is out of control due to stress or other disease, then u need to medicate. You can decide to alternate meds and do preventative treatment a few times a year.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

It appears every few days at several pigeons. Droppings begin green-yellow and if not medicate in time they become yellow. Then, after medicine, they turn back to normal color. Is not something I can prevent as they become reinfected from evironment.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ya yellow sounds like salmonella, and that needs more than a few days, it needs 14 to 21 days of the proper meds.


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## bibzou (Oct 8, 2014)

Update. Two days after my fiasco consultation with this arrogant know-it-all vet number 2, who wanted to euthanize the bird, the swelling on his hock started to subside. Today I can hardly tell the difference between the two legs...He stands normally, walks normally, sometimes with a slight limp, perches easily. I will finish the Clavulox treatment that the first vet had prescribed. She insists that the bird does not need any stronger meds. In total it will be 20 days of treatment with a few days off in the middle.
I have stopped the Meloxicam, I don't know the side effects of prolonged use of pain killer. I rub his leg with Voltaren (diclofenac sodium) for “relief of local pain and inflammation” Is that OK?
I follow your advice and he gets raw organic apple cider, vitamins and probiotics. Although I wonder about giving antibiotics and probiotics. Can Antibiotics discriminate between good and bad bacteria ? Thanks for your support.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

No antibiiotics cannot discriminate between good and bad and that is why you have to give the probiotic to repopulate the good and keep the balance. Im glad that the bird is doing well and that you did not listen to the vets. Do the entire course of meds as prescribed.

With the medicam you can also give half dose or dose every few days or as needed if you see he is limping, u dont have to do it ievery day. Use it on an as needed basis like in humans. I am not sure about the volteran amulgel but I think it was a good idea. The only thing I quetion is what may be good for human can be toxic to birds and visa versa, so that one I would run by the vets, I know why you used it and may be a great idea. But I would check first. May not even be needed, and if u want to rub, use a bit of veggie oil and massage probably does the bird good.  Good work man. or should I say mate lol.


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## bibzou (Oct 8, 2014)

Update. Pigeon with swollen hock has been released 12 days ago . The first few evenings he would fly back and hop inside his old cage for the night. Now he stays with the flock of feral pigeons, I see him everyday. He does not limp and looks fine. Again, thanks CBL and AndreiS for your advice and support. Trying to help feral pigeons is a lonely job. Where I live, they are declared pests. By law, they must be destroyed by a vet when caught . It is an offence to feed them. I am sure there are people who care for city pigeons in Sydney, but they sure don't advertise it and they are hard to find...


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Thats great bib!!!  Ya people dont value anything nowadays. A life is a life and should be fought for not killed for no reason. Sickening for sure. You are not alone, lots of us help all, feral and domestic alike


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