# Frillbacks



## thepigeonkey

This thread is for Frillback discussion, pictures, information, links and questions.

I will start off with this old article from 1909

The Frillback Pigeon. 

By Elmer R. B. Chapman. 
The Present Day Frillback Standardized. 

The Frillback, as we in America know it, is a large dove- 
house sort of a pigeon, very awkward in shape, having a long 
spindly, downward curved beak. 

There are three or really two distinct varieties, as the 
Clean Legged are similar to the other two with the exception 
of having no feathers on their shanks and feet. 

The white or variety said to have originated in Holland 
which we call the Dutch is' a very beautiful bird. ' It should 
be as near the engraving shown herewith as 'possible. . 

Having a plump massive shape, shell crest, long frilled 
muffs, also frills as near covering the birds as possible. In the 
frilling is their beauty, a good specimen looking almost as if 
they had been curled with a curling iron. The author has never 
seen a Dutch Frill in any other color other than white that had 
this point to perfection. 

For this very reason a very white nicely frilled specimen of 
this variety can stand no comparison with the Austrian or 
German variety. These we find in all colors, including Bell- 
necks and Grizzles. 

A well frilled, grizzled Frillback is a very beautiful bird. A 
Bellneck Austrian should be a medium sized bird with grouse 
muffs, all white, excepting a colored bib, narrow across the neck, 
with crescent over the crop. The frilling should extend well over 
the sides and up the back. 

A grizzle should be well mixed all over, being black, blue, red 
or yellow combined with pure white. 

A solid color should be solid, of uniform color, very bright, 
with a brilliant sheen. 

Prillbacks are very hardy and good feeders, but for results, 
they should always be kept in a separate loft. They also have 
another property which recommends them very highly to any 
fancier who keeps his birds without an aviary. That is, they 
entirely lack the homing instinct. The author has imported 
birds and allowed them to fly at large within 48 hours after re- 
ceiving them and never lost a bird. 

So much for a general description. Now what is the 
standard requirement tor which we must breed to win in the 
show room? Unfortunately this variety has not as yet been 
taken up by any club, nor any fixed standard been formulated. 

A Pair of Blue Grizzle Austrians 

The idea has always been and really how could it be other- 
wise at present. The best frilled specimen to win, irrespective 
of type or color. Most judges under which my birds have been 
shown have never before even seen a modern Frillback. 

The standard which I believe should be used is as follows, 
and as some of the Frillback breeders may differ from me in 
their views, if they will differ aloud, the breed will surely make 
progress. 

Breast— rounded and projecting beyond the wing butts. 

Legs — of medium length, birds should not have a crouchy 
appearance. 

Varieties. 

Dutch. All white with long well developed muffs. 

Austrian or German. 

All as per above standard with the exception that they 
should have evenly muffed (grouse) legs. 

Clean legged. All as above without any trace of feathers 
on shanks and feet. 

Feather. Abundant but quite closely fitting. 

Frilling. The feathers over wing covering, saddle and back 
as far up 'the neck as possible should be frilled. The longer 
the frills the better tlje bird. These curls or frills to be as 
symmetrical as possible. 

Shape — cobby. 

Head — dove headed, rather low with long convex crown. 

Beak — slender, rather long and straight, slightly curved 
downward. Color white in whites, and dark in all other varie- 
ties. 

Wattle — very small and smooth, with natural whitish bloom. 

Eye cere — thin and fine in texture, white in white and dark 
in all other varieties. 

Byes — bull in whites, orange in all other colors except Bell- 
nscks, which are preferred pearl. 

Neck — of medium thickness. 

Shoulders — broad and full. 

Color. 

Selfs. All colors. 

Bellnecks. All white except the wing bars, and a crescent 
or band around the neck. 

Grizzles. All colors. A good grizzle should be grizzled all 
over. 

Ermlnettes. White peppered with black. Tails colored in all 
varieties except the white. Very bright in coloring. 

Crest. All Dutch Frills should have a shell crest extending 
from eye to eye, rising about a 1-4 inch over the cap, showing 
cup-like cavity but not resting on or touching the head. 

This, I believe, should he the standard of the modern Frill- 
back. What we need is a Frillhack Club to push this variety, 
and place It where it belongs as one of the most beautiful of the 
toy varieties. 

Having bred Frillbacks for over 20 years, and being often 
asked if there are any settled breeding rules, I will give you a 
few of my own. 

1st. Never mate any except a well frilled cock. The cock 
throws the frilling properties every time. 

2nd. Don't cross the Dutch with the Austrian. 

3rd. In breeding Bellnecks, breed from those having the 
darkest wing barring and (he lightest shoulders. 

A Yellow Grizzle Austrian Hen. 

, 4th. Don't cross the colors expecting great results. Bred 
from ages as this bird has been without regard other than that 
of frill, colors have got sadly mixed. Almost any color is liable 
to crop out. 

5th. In breeding grizzles, breed the best grizzles together 
or cross a solid color onto a white, never onto a grizzle. 

6th. Don't put a clean leg with a grouse or long muffed 
bird and expect to get that even beautiful muff. 

I am well aware that as there are fanciers that cannot abide 
the Pouter with its stockings, but who think the Cropper perfection, also others who cannot fancy the Tumbler with wings on 
its feet, but who dote on its cleaned legged prototype, so there 
are fanciers who are working on the clean legged Frillback. 

It is true there are clean leg Frills. The author owns a few 
himself. Fine in color without a stub. But way, way back in 
comparison with the muffed birds. I am also aware that Fulton 
describes the Frill as a clean leg. I still contend that a frill if 
obtained anywhere near the cut, cannot be improved. 

In showing Frillback I have noticed that gently winding the 
bird with a damp towel tends to increase the frills, also that 
birds show to a much better advantage in damp, moist weather, 
rather than when it is hot and dry. 

Let the Frillback fanciers get together, talk and boom the 
Frillback. It can be easily made one of the most popular of the 
Fancy Pigeons. Let us hear from you. Don't keep your birds at 
home. Fill the classes at the different shows chock full with 
bird to spare. Let's have a Frillback specialty club. 

Wake up, fanciers of the Frillback! 

What is a Frillback? 

Why was it so named? 

Of course I believe a Frillback should be a pigeon having 
an abundance of frill extending as far up the back as possible, 
being as its name signifies, a Frillback. But is that all? Take 
for instance the Black Mottle C-Leg Tumbler. Why, the very 
mention of the word shows us what we should expect, — a black 
pigeon mottled as per the Standard without a trace of stubs on 
its shanks or feet and the true tumbler type. 

But no, most everyone thinks that a Frillback is any sort of 
a pigeon having curly feathers or frills. 

The one having the most should always win 1st, irrespective 
of shape or type, feather, eye, etc. 

Again I say, get together and compel the judges to judge 
them properly. 

How often are we at the present time put in the left-over 
class, that is, any judge who may not be otherwise engaged is 
set to judging our birds? 

What does a man who has bred Tumblers all his life, (al- 
though he may be, I warrant you, a good Tumbler judge) know 
concerning our birds? 

Has he ever bred or handled any outside of the show room? 

At the beginning we should get at the Show Committees, 
as the classes allowed us are first of all too wrong. They 
should not be White or any other color, but hatch which is a 
distinctly crested, long-booted bird, Austrian, which is an en- 
tirely different type, with even grouse muffs. 

If classes are sub-divided, there should be the Grizzle, the 
Bell-Neck and Solid. 

As to frills — acting as judge over many classes — I say that 
the best all round bird should win. But supposing that we have 
only one Frillback class — all colors and kinds competing — why 
then I say the best frilled specimen ought to win. 

Now again what is the best frilled specimen? The frill is 
in the shape accurately described as similar to a steel shaving 
thrown from a drill, a good frill having that beautiful spiral 
and holding it too. 

A bird is not a good frilled specimen just because his feathers are rough and do not lay smooth. The frills should be 
distinct and stand clearly away from the bird and not look like 
rumpled feathers.


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## Woodnative

Luke do you know what year this article was written? I remember seeing it before, but it is good to see again and reread. I wonder if "bellneck" frillbacks are still out there anywhere? Clean-legged? 
At the last NJ show here we entered the only frillbacks. The judge (who was otherwise an experienced and reputable pigeon judge) explained that a frillback should have as large a muff as possible........similar to a swallow in the show. Now that is not part of the standard, but the standard IS changing and evolving according to the likes of folks over time. As mentioned even in this article, the curl/frill should be the point of primary interest and that is still in the standards. 
A great breed!! I/we thoroughly enjoy them. I like seeing them in ohter colors. I do believe curl is first but folks should also maintain healthy birds that breed and feed thier young well. They should be a pleasure to work with.


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## thepigeonkey

The article was written in 1909 I believe.

Swiss cresant is like a saxon moon pigeon and sounds like the description of this type of frillback.
The crescent/bellneck doesn't exist anymore, maybe war wiped them out, who knows. A milky white frillback with red bars, red crescent on the neck and pearl eyes would be quite a site.
I'm also interested to find out what Erminette pigeons looked like.
It sounds a bit like almond to me. Maybe Tiger grizzle but more than likely almond. 
I have loads of files about frillbacks but I know I'm missing a lot of history.


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## thepigeonkey

Some great looking German Frillbacks.

http://www.svlockentauben.de/html/HauptsonderschauNov2010.html


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## thepigeonkey

Elmer Chapman 1909

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924000115463#page/n19/mode/2up

lots of Frillback files

http://thepigeonkey.wix.com/1#!frillbacks


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## thepigeonkey

The Frillback

A Very old breed said to have come from Asia Minor or India. Frillbacks go back to at least 1640 when the French colonised in India. It is said in todays German standard Frillbacks were being bred in England and Germany in the first half of the 18th centaury. 
In 1757 Hazelquist saw pigeons in Cairo "on which each and every feather was twisted or turned round." The bird he saw had clean legs and was said to have come from India. 
The Frillback was mentioned in 1765 when the "Treatise on Pigeons" was published in England. 
Charles Darwin received a clean legged Indian Frillback from Madras in the mid 1800's and states it was very different to the English Frillbacks he had already obtained. 
In 1909 Elmer Chapman of America describes the white variety which originated in Holland with shell crest and long frilled muffs also the Austrian or German variety which comes in clean legged, stockings or grouse and all colours including bell-necks or crescents, black, white, selfs, erminettes and grizzles. 
"Bell-neck or Crescent should have pearl eyes, grouse muffs, all white, except wing bars and crescent over the crop. Ermlnettes. White peppered with black. Tails colored in all varieties except the white. Very bright in coloring."
In 1936 H Wexelsen of Norway discovered there are two genes for the curl in Frillbacks Cu1 and Cu2. Both genes are said to be autosomal and partial dominant.
Today Frillbacks come in many colours and patterns including almond and indigo however they no longer exist in a clean legged variety.
The German Frillback club was formed in 1905 and has been the world leader in the breed ever since.
The American Frillback Club was formed in the 1960's.
Here in NZ we use the American standard which is similar to the German.
American Standard recognised colours.
SELF - White, Black, Recessive Red and Yellow.
PATTERN - Recessive Red and Yellow in Mottle, Rosewing, or Whiteside.
GRIZZLE - Red, Yellow, Blue, Silver.
SHIELD MARKED - Red, Yellow, Blue Black Bar, Silver Dun Bar, Mealy Ash Red Bar, Ash Cream Bar.
ARC-Any rare color
ARCP-Any rare color pattern.
In 1971 the late Tom McCaig started to create self red, self yellow, and self gold (pale ash red) using a Saxon white tail. In The late 1980's he sent some self reds and yellows to Willi Kolb in Germany who improved the curl and the new colours gained acceptance in both standards.
Shield marked Frillbacks were first bred over two hundred years ago and have recently made a big come-back in the German shows. The shields have been improved using shield racers. They come in red, yellow, blue-bar, black, mealy and cream. Shields are the only Frillbacks permitted to have bull eyes.
In recent years the crested shield has been accepted into the German show standard. Previously only whites could have crests. 
In the American standard crests can be shown in any colour or pattern. Also accepted in the American standard is the recessive red, gold (pale) or yellow white-side, the red, gold or yellow rose-wing and red, gold or yellow mottle all created by Tom McCaig of California during the 1990's. He used a Dutch white shield highflier.
Currently here in Christchurch I'm working on Recessive red, black and crested white Frillbacks. Once these are up to standard I will endeavour to breed blacks with white bars and red with white bars.
When judging Frillbacks curl is the most important factor for it receives up to half the points awarded.
Below is the points system from the Frillback standard.
HEAD -Plainhead, Crest, Eye, Beak, Wattle.......15
COLOR-Luster, Shade, Richness, Markings.......15
BODY -Neck, Breast, Back, Legs, Wings, Tail......10
CURL - Coverage, Length, Ending. Closing, Ringlet, Curl....50
MUFF-Length, Hock, Shape, Feather Curl.....10
TOTAL POINTS.....100
I was born in 1985 which I estimate is not long after Frillbacks were first brought into the country.
As little as two shipments of Frillbacks came into New Zealand. The First shipment were an unimproved grizzle strain. They look similar to those depicted in the earliest Treaties on pigeons. They are long low birds with small curls. They are lighter in colour and often seen with a crest. Flecked with white all over which is what the old standard called for. Maybe these birds were bred with white crested Frillbacks before they made it here. 
I am unsure if white Frillbacks ever existed in NZ and I'm unsure what country these first Frillbacks came from, Rick may be able to answer that one. 
The second shipment came from America via Australia due to Importation rules. I think it may have been Tom McCaig who sent the birds which were an improved strain he previously imported from Germany. The red grizzle had been select bred to have a 'skull-head' grizzle appearance.
Neither the blue grizzle or red grizzle had white flecking like the original strain. This is what the standard now calls for. Their curls are also harder, wider and larger but maybe not as dense. 
One of the cocks from America carried the dilute gene which is how we acquired yellow and silver grizzles. The red grizzles in the German/American strain may have been t-cheque in base pattern and they carry a bronze gene to make the red richer. 
Most Frillbacks carry one of the dirty genes making the beak black. 
In my experience most Frillbacks also carry the sooty gene.
In order to breed a pure white from two ash red grizzles you must breed out the sooty gene and to get a flesh beak you must breed out the dirty gene.
If you breed red grizzles with blue grizzles you risk moving bronze onto your blue from the red, you also risk loosing the bronze from your reds giving you bronzy blues and dull reds.
Only the red grizzles are acceptable with the t-cheque base pattern. Blue grizzles should be barred. 
The reds should always be a rich red and the blues can be either light or dark blue grizzle with no whole white feathers.
I will try to promote the Frillback, carry it into the future, improve the type and create new colours.
Luke


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## thepigeonkey

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/9325552/331251716/name/UNKNOWN_PARAMETER_VALUE

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/9325552/975510391/name/UNKNOWN_PARAMETER_VALUE

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/9325552/486397364/name/UNKNOWN_PARAMETER_VALUE


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## thepigeonkey

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f101/frillback-lockentauben-34148.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/dutch-frillback-anyone-seen-one-30706.html


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## Woodnative

I like your album Luke and how it is divided up showing individual birds. Luke do you have any trouble sexing your frillbacks or infertility compared to other breeds you keep? I have not had that problem but it has been mentioned with some strains.


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## NZ Pigeon

Chris, I have been scraping the lofts and cleaning the nests this year and I can tell you one thing, The frillbacks have no issue with hatching and raising a nest of two young, In fact, I find them more reliable than the Croppers and Thief's and even some racers who tend to give too much water causing wet nests. So in short, They breed like rats. I wonder if it is down to Luke being willing to take other frillbacks from fanciers and providing they show some good characteristics working with them to get new blood. Similarly to yourself with the nice coloured birds. I am sure Luke will have something to say too.


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## Woodnative

Evan-
Thanks and I agree with you. The curl should be first but I think the birds should always be good breeders, hardy, and a pleasure to have around!!


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## thepigeonkey

The really inbred strains are slower to mature and have small eggs with poor shells, the hens can stop breeding as early as 5 years old, they aren't very active and take ages to mate. 

It would seam if you cross two strains, both strains being pure Frillback, you get birds which mature quicker and are more active. They can build nests, mate quickly, their eggs are still small but have better shells and they would seam to have more fertile eggs.


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## thepigeonkey




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## thepigeonkey




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## thepigeonkey

http://www.frillbacks.com/

http://loftone.net/frillback/

http://pigeon00.tripod.com/Frillback.htm


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## thepigeonkey

http://www.featheredworld.co.uk/pages/previews/08/05/sample_2.htm

http://archive.org/stream/PigeonBook#page/n237/mode/2up


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## thepigeonkey

Crested brown spread (chocolate)?


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## Woodnative

Is that actual brown spread?? I have not seen that photo before. They are not yours, correct?? How are your crested frillbacks doing?


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## david scarboro

*Beautiful birds*



thepigeonkey said:


> Some great looking German Frillbacks.
> 
> http://www.svlockentauben.de/html/HauptsonderschauNov2010.html


Is anyone selling these in the States?


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## thepigeonkey

Woodnative said:


> Is that actual brown spread?? I have not seen that photo before. They are not yours, correct?? How are your crested frillbacks doing?


They are not mine. I found the pic on picasa. They look brown spread to me. They have coloured beak and false pearl eye. The curl is good for a new colour project.


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## thepigeonkey

david scarboro said:


> Is anyone selling these in the States?


Breeders in the states sell Frillbacks all the time, they may be close but never as good as the best German birds. 
German Frillbacks have been exported all over the world. 
When you breed over 100 Frillbacks and then breed the best cock to the best hen you will be closer to a good German bird. 
You don't need to buy the best Frillbacks to breed the best Frillbacks though you do need specific genes within the original acquired birds. 
I would suggest you stay away from the grizzles which have a lot of white on them.


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## david scarboro

I was really talking about the Saddle Birds. I have never seen these before. My dad had Frillbacks back in the 60's so I grew up with them, but nothing that matched the German birds. I already raise Bokhara's, ET's, Jacobins, American Fantails. and Classic Frills, but I could find room for a pair or 2 of those!


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## thepigeonkey

The shields are nice. Especially with a good crest. There are some nice shields being bred in America. I can't decide what colour shield I like most.


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## YaSin11

LOVED seeing the pics of Frillbacks! Really so beautiful. Do they have problems flying?...does the curled feathers hinder long flights? Just curious. Thank you all for making a separate thread for this Magnificent pigeon. Peace


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## Woodnative

I like the Shields but don't have them. They are still rare here. The Germans have done a lot with the shields in recent years and I see some good ones on thier site. Danny-Jo currently has a pair of shields at auction on the Slobberknocker site. I did not know he kept Shields. 
YaSin11 they are not very good fliers......they can go up to the roof and back and that is about it. Hawks are bad here so we have not let ours out for a long time but I miss doing so. 
David we will have some bird for sale later. I also know someone in Georgia who will have some nice frillbacks for sale later on. 
Photo of our baby lavender frillback hen from this morning. Her nestmate is a crested almond male.


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## thepigeonkey

Chris, I hope the almonds crest is wide and straight. I notice the crest can get wider, longer and straighter with the second moult.
Notice the frillbacks can change a lot between the first and second moult, they are still maturing. I've had two 'Best young Frillback' in show which both grew up to be average looking birds when other birds with small frayed curls matured into better birds.
Sometimes average birds from average bloodlines get off to a good start or hatch early in the season and do well at a show. Similarly if a good bird from good bloodlines doesn't get off to a good start it can take a couple of years to grow into a better bird than former.


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## thepigeonkey

YaSin11 said:


> LOVED seeing the pics of Frillbacks! Really so beautiful. Do they have problems flying?...does the curled feathers hinder long flights? Just curious. Thank you all for making a separate thread for this Magnificent pigeon. Peace


It's like they are afraid of heights. The curl doesn't seam to affect their flight but their flights and tail are corrugated or waved. The air passes through the gaps, similar to a pigeon flying with soaped wings or after a bath. 
Glad you like the thread. Are Frillbacks popular in Bangladesh?


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## Woodnative

I/we have been very happy with the curls in our group.......much better than most or all I have seen locally though there are even better birds out there especially the top German birds! 
The almond's crest looks good...........I am happy to see a crest in our birds and in a color other than white!!


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## Woodnative

Cute little crested almond. Note the color break over his eye.


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## thepigeonkey

The Frillback: NPA Standard 1993 

TOTAL POINTS 100 
• HEAD - Plainhead, Crest, Eye, Beak, Wattle 15 
• COLOR - Luster, Shade, Richness, Markings 15 
• BODY - Neck, Breast, Back, Legs, Wing, Tail 10 
• FRILL - Coverage, Length, Ending, Closing,Ringlet, Curl 50 
• MUFF - Length, Hock, Shape, Feather Curl 10 


RECOGNIZED COLORS - GRIZLE - Red, Yellow, Blue, Silver. SELF - White, Black. A.O.C. - (Any Other Color) Includes any birds splashed, mottled or any color not recognized. ORIGIN Home Unknown. In the first half of the 18th Century there was isolated breeding in England and Germany. the breed was widespread in Belgium and Holland when it was introduced into Germany. The red and blue grizzle showed up first in Hungary. From there they found their way through all of Austria, then Germany. Today the breeding is widespread. The white crested has been present in the United States since 1920, the colored varieties were imported from Europe in 1 951. 
SIZE - Body carried slightly horizontal and low in stance. Slightly larger than most German Toy breeds, having larger wings and longer tail. The length of wing and tail feathers to be in proportion to the rest of the body size. 
HEAD - Shell crested and plainhead are present in all colors. The following is the point breakdown of 15 points for head areas: 
CRESTED - Beak and wattle, 1; Eye, 3: Head (shape), 2; Shell Crest, 8 = 15 points. 
SHELL CRESTED - Shell shaped, positioned up on the back of the head, high and erect, full with feathers, thick, and have small rosettes on each side of the head. The crest feathers should stand straight up, not hugging the head, and be even across at its base. 
PLAINHEAD - Beak and wattle, 2; Eye, 3; Head (shape), 10 = 15 points. 
PLAINHEAD - the head should be large, but in proportion to the size of the body. the shape should be slightly oval with a well rounded forehead. There should be a definite stop of the forehead at the wattle. 
EYES - Not large, located in a direct line with the beak. Red or orange colored iris is desired in all color varieties. Pearl, bull, cracked, gravel eyes are major faults and will be disqualified. 
BEAK - The beak is long and slender, held straight out, curved on the tip, frequently the upper beak is slightly longer than the lower beak. Beak color is dark on red and blue, black on blacks, horn or light on yellow and silver, and flesh colored on whites. Wattle is thin, small and covered with white powder on all colors. 
BODY - Generally boaty in appearance. 
NECK - Seemingly short, protrudes entirely from the shoulder. Has very little throat, but well cut away. 
BREAST - Broad, nicely plump, somewhat set forward (protruding). 
BACK - Broad shoulders, slightly arched, sloping off gently. 
LEGS - Short, with a muscular squat appearance, powerful. 
TAIL - Wide feathers, rather long and borne relatively loose. The tail should not exceed over the width of two feathers. Almost but not dragging the ground. Each feather must have a definite wave or wrinkle. 
WING - Wide and strong. The body is well covered. Wide primaries, the extreme end rest on the tail. The wing tips should not cross but form a 'V' at the tail. Each primary and flight feather must have a definite wave or wrinkle. Wing and tail feathers should not be excessively long in length. 
MUFF - Muff or foot feathering is preferred, two to three inches in length, full and forming an arc shape. Feathers of the hock and foot feathering must have a definite wave or wrinkle., the feather ending with a curl or frill. 
FRILL - (Curls) - Most important factor in judging. The feathers should not be so fluffy or straight that a well defined curl can't be formed. the frill should cover the entire wing shield, dense on the shoulders, so that no open areas stand out. The last row of frill, toward the tail, should run the entire length of the wing, and be long in length. Also, of great importance is the size of curl, the form, and the curl ending. The feather should be long in length, thick and the feather ending should form a closed curl ending with a round ringlet at the end. Feather curl should also be present at the ends of the foot feathers or muff and at the ends of the hock feathers. the primary flight feathers of the wing and tail feathers should have a definite wave or wrinkle. ATTENTION: The amount, size, closed curl, curl ringlet, total wing and curl coverage cannot be stressed enough. Remember the breed's name, FRILLBACK. 
DISQUALIFICATIONS 
Disease, physical deformity of any kind, poor condition, any artificial alteration whatever or added appearance other than natural growth, or faking in any manner, all above at the judge's discretion. 
VARIOUS COLORS 
• WHITE - Pure white, without yellow tinge. Color faults: Black or bull eyes, not a clear beak color, colored feathers. 
• BLACK - Jet black color with as much beetle green luster as possible over the entire plumage. The major goal is to obtain an even shade over all the body, flights and tail. Color faults: Grayish brown or dull fading color, primary and flight feathers dull compared to other black areas, visible bars, wrong eye color, white or light colored beak. 
• RED GRIZLE - Lacquer bright fiery brick red and strong wherever on the body, a little lighter on the belly, rump and back. the head, neck and wing shield feathers should be red with part of the feather being white, which forms the sprinkling of white or grizzle pattern. Wing bar entirely dark strong red, clearly marked. Primaries and flights, upper and under surface lightly sprinkled with white. Color faults: Overall light red color without luster, blue feathers or shade in the white feathered areas, dark keel, light beak, too much white on the head, neck or wing shield. 
• YELLOW GRIZLE - The yellow is exactly the same as the red grizzle. Lacquer bright golden yellow, and strong wherever on the body, a little lighter on the belly, rump and back. the head, neck, and wing shield feathers should be yellow with part of the feather being white, which forms the sprinkling of white or grizzle pattern. Wing bar entirely dark strong yellow, clearly marked. Primaries and flights, upper and under surface lightly sprinkled with white. Color faults: Overall light yellow color without luster, blue feathers or shade in the white feathered areas, dark keel, light beak, too much white on the head, neck or wing shield. 
• BLUE GRIZLE - Blue grizzle appears in both light and dark blue. The neck is darker metallic green than the breast and shield. The wing bar is dark bray black to entirely black. The tail and wings are blue, with a darker bar. The tail guard feathers are sprinkled with medium bright blue feathers. The head, neck and wing shield feathers should be blue with part of the feather being white, which forms the sprinkling of white or grizzle pattern. Basic blue shade should be the same wherever on the bird. Flight feathers should not have any white parts. Any red feathers or rust at all on the wing shield or bar should not be present. Color faults: Too much white on the head, neck or flight feathers, weak shade of blue, and rust or red on the wing shield or bar. 
• SILVER GRIZLE - Silver (Brown) grizzle appears in both light and dark silver. The neck is darker metallic green than the breast and shield. The wing bar is dark brown or dun color. The tail and wings are silver, with a darker bar. The tail guard feathers are sprinkled with medium bright silver feathers. the head, neck and wing shield feathers should be silver with part of the feather being white or fawn color, which forms the sprinkling of white or grizzle pattern. Basic silver shade should be the same wherever on the bird. Flight feathers should not have any white parts. Any red, rust or blue feathers at all on the wing shield or bar should not be present. Color faults: Too much white on the head, neck or flight feathers, weak shade of silver, rust, red or blue feathers on the wing shield or bar.


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## thepigeonkey

The Frillback Standard today

HEAD -Plainhead, Crest, Eye, Beak, Wattle............................................ ......................... 15
COLOR-Luster, Shade, Richness, Markings.......................................... ...........................15
BODY -Neck, Breast, Back, Legs, Wings, Tail.............................................. ....................10
CURL - Coverage, Length, Ending. Closing, Ringlet, Curl.............................................. ..,.....50
MUFF-Length, Hock, Shape, Feather Curl.............................................. ..............10
TOTAL POINTS........................100

RECOGNIZED COLORS
SELF - White, Black, Recessive Red and Yellow.
PATTERN - Recessive Red and Yellow in Mottle, Rosewing, or Whiteside.
GRIZZLE - Red, Yellow, Blue, Silver.
SHIELD MARKED - Red, Yellow, Blue Black Bar, Silver Dun Bar, Mealy Ash Red Bar, Ash Cream Bar.
ARC-Any rare color
ARCP-Any rare color pattern.

RECOGNITION PROCEEDURES FOR NEW COLORS OR PATTERNS

(A) There must be at least Three (3) exhibitors entering Frillbacks within each color group or pattern. They must be entered in Three (3) of the Five (5) AFC District shows (per year) for a period of Three (3) years. Each year the judging scores must increase with proper progress.
(B) At the completion of this process the Color Committee will present the request for consideration to the AFC Master Judges for proper genetics and markings for review, as appropriate.

GENERAL IMPRESSION
The type is that of a strong wide breasted medium high-stationed Field Pigeon. The plumage is somewhat loose. The main characteristic or distinctive feature is the curled feather of the wing shield.

SIZE
Slightly larger than most color pigeon breeds, having larger wings and longer tail. The length of wing and tail feathers to be in proportion to the rest of the body size.

HEAD
Medium large slightly arched Shell crest and plainhead are present in all colors. The following is the point breakdown of 15 points for head areas:

Crested: Beak and Wattle, 1; Eye, 3; Head (Shape), 1\ Shell Crest, 8 = 15 points.
Plainhead: Beak and Wattle, 2; Eye, 3; Head (Shape), 10 = 15 points.

PLAINHEAD
The head should be medium large, but in proportion to the size of the body. The shape should be slightly oval with a well-rounded forehead. There should be a definite stop of the forehead at the wattle. There should not be any flat areas of the head.

SHELL CREST
Shell shaped, positioned upon the back of the head, high and erect, full with feather, thick and have small Rosettes on each side of the crest The crest feathers should stand straight up, not bugging the head, and be even across at its base.

EYES
Not large, located in a direct line with the beak. Red or orange colored iris is desired on all colors and patterns except shield marked. The shield marked pattern should have bull or black eye on all colors. Pearl, cracked or gravel eyes are major faults.

BEAK
The beak is long and slender, held straight out. curved on the tip, frequently the upper beak is slightly longer that the lower beak. Beak color is dark on red and blue grizzle; black on blacks; light on yellow and horn on silver; flesh colored on whites, recessive red and yellow; mottles, rosewing and whiteside. Flesh colored on all shield marked colors. Wattle is thin, small and covered with white powder on all colors.

BODY
Strong in appearance
NECK
Full, protrudes from the shoulders. Has very little throat but well cut away. Feather creases a fault.
BREAST
Broad, nicely plump, somewhat set forward, protruding
BACK
Wide across the shoulders, slightly arched and sloped
LEGS
Medium long with muscular appearance, powerful.

TAIL
Wide feathers, rather long and borne relatively loose. The tail should not exceed over the width of the two feathers. Almost, but not dragging the ground. Each feather must have a definite wave or wrinkle.

WING
Wide wing shield. The body is well covered. Wings to be closed over the back and rest on the tail. Whig tips should not cross. Wing butts closely aligned with the body. Each wing feather must have a definite wave or wrinkle. Wing and tail feathers should not be excessively long in length.

MUFF
Muff or foot feathering is preferred, two to three inches in length, full and forming an arc shape. Feathers of the hock and foot feathering must have a definite wave or wrinkle, the feather ending with a curl or frill. Extremely long muff is a fault.

FRILL/CURLS
Most important factor in judging. The feathers should not be so fluffy or straight that a well-defined curl can't be formed. The curl should cover the entire wing shield, dense on the shoulders, so that no open areas stand out Curl should be completely closed in the bar area. The last row of curl, toward the tail, should run the entire length of the wing, and be long in length, thick, wide and the feather ending should form a closed curl ending with a round ringlet at the end. Feather cur) should also be present at the ends of the foot feathers or muff and at the ends of the hock feathers. The flight feathers of the wing and tail feathers should have a definite wave or wrinkle. ATTENTION: The amount, size, closed curl, curl ringlet, total wing and curl coverage cannot be stressed enough. Remember the breed's name, FRILLBACK.

DISQUALIFICATIONS
Disease, physical deformity of any kind, poor condition, any artificial alteration or added appearance other than natural growth, or faking in any manner, all above at the judge's discretion.


VARIOUS COLORS
WHITE
Pure white, without yellow tinge. Color faults: Black or bull eyes, not a clear beak color, colored feathers.

BLACK
Jet-black color with as much beetle green luster as possible over the entire plumage. The major goal is to obtain an even shade over all the body, flights and tail. Color faults: Grayish brown or dull color, flight feathers dull compared to other black areas, visible bars, tail bar, light colored beak.

RECESSIVE RED
Self-red. An even shade throughout of clear rich, bright red. Beak flesh colored. Color faults: blue or gray tints in the red.

RECESSIVE YELLOW
Self-yellow. An even shade throughout of clear, rich bright yellow. Beak flesh colored. Color faults: Blue or gray tints in the yellow.

SHIELD MARKED
All colors to have a White body with the shield being colored. Must have colored secondaries and 7-10 White Primaries...Note: Up to 12 White Primaries are tolerated along with small amounts of colored feathers in the thigh. 

RED GRIZZLE
Rich red. Head very light grizzle color, without whole white feathers or splashing. Neck, breast and bars must be rich red. The flight feathers, when closed, should present a white appearance, but when opened out the inner web of each feather should exhibit a rich red grizzle. The tail should have a clear white appearance. A slight reddish color is permissible in the rump. Wingshield light to dark grizzle. Color faults: Bluish breast or rump and color in the feathers of the closed flights and tail, light beak, overall light red color.

YELLOW GRIZZLE
Color and markings are the same as the red grizzle, but the ground color should be a beautiful rich yellow. Color faults: Dark colored beak, any color in the feathers of the closed flights, tail and rump.

BLUE GRIZZLE
Blue grizzle appears in both light and dark blue. The neck is darker metallic green than the breast and shield. The wing bar is dark gray-black to entirely black. The tail and wings are blue, with a darker bar. The head neck and wing shield feathers should be blue with part of the feather being white, which forms the sprinkling of white or grizzle pattern. Basic blue shade should be the same wherever on the bird. Flight feathers should not have any red tone or any white parts. Any red feathers or rust at all on the wing shield or bar should not be present Color faults: Too much white on the head, neck or flight feathers, weak shade of blue, and rust or red on the wing shield.

SILVER GRIZZLE
The dilute of blue grizzle. Color and markings are the same as the blue grizzle, but the ground color should be a beautiful fawn color with no tendency toward a creamy color. The wing and tail bars shall be dun. Beak horn color. Color faults: Too much white on the head, neck, or flight feather, weak shade of silver, and rust or red on the wing shield.

PATTERN
Recessive red or yellow self with pattern wing shield.
Rosewing- Self colored bird with & to 20 white feathers on tie wing shoulders.
Mottle - Self colored bird with the wing shield mixed with white feathers and half colored feathers.
Whiteside - Self colored bird with the wing shield entirely white.


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## thepigeonkey

German

Frillback (Lockentauben)

Origin, 
unknown! possibly South-East Europe? in the first half of the 18th Century Frillbacks were bred in both Germany and England.

Overall impression,
a strongly built, broad breasted pigeon with medium high Stance (near Horizontal Underline), fairly 'Loose' Faethering with the Distinctive Breed Point, the Profuse Curled Feathers on the Wing Shield.


Head,
medium size, slightly Vaulted (rising Forehead), plain Head or Whites with a Crest or without (and now some Shield Colours Crested)

Eye,
Red to Orange colour, also the same for the Whites, Shield Marked have Dark Eyes, Eye-Cere Pale to Reddish.

Beak,
medium length, Black for Blue Schimmel and Blacks. Dark Horn for Yellow Schimmel, Recessive Red and Yellow. Light Flesh for Shileds and Whites, Beak-Cere, smooth, fairly small.

Neck,
full at the Shoulders and narrowing slightly to the Head. a slight foreward Curve.

Breast,
appearing Broad and Full, with a Curved not heavy outline.

Back,
broad across the Shoulders and slightly sloping.

Wings,
broad rounded Wing Shield, the Primaries well closed, held on the Tail with the Primary Tips almost touching, the Wing 'Butts' held firmly but not tightly to the Body.

Tail,
fairly loose, without curls or gapes, held in a line with the Back.

Legs,
medium length, 'Stockinged' (not Muffed), with the Whites with Crest, slightly longer and thicker allowable, curving to the Sides.

Feather,
every Feather on the Wing Shield should be a Tight, broad and well closed Curl, Pigeins with Feather Curl encompassing the Wing Bars and lower Shield are of greater worth. slightly 'Open' structure too the Neck feathering.

Colours,
Black, Recessive Red, Recesssive Yellow, White (with or without Crest) Schimmel in Blue, Red, and Yellow.
Shield Marked in Red, Black, Yellow, Blue, Mealy, Cream.
(Also now Shield with Crest in; Red, Blue-Black Bar, Yellow and Black).

Colour and Markings,
Black, Recs' Red and Recs' Yellow with even, deep, Intensive Colour, Whites without a 'yellowish' Tone, Schimmel and Dilute Colours should have the Bars distinct.
Shield have a White Ground colour, with only the Shield Coloured, Coloured Secondaries and 7 to 10 White Primaries are strived for, up to 12 White Primaries are tolerated, the Odd coloured Feather in the Thighs is allowed.
Blue Schimmel,
Light or Dark Blue, Wing Bars Black, Wing Shield and Head with Dark and/or Light Flecking, Tail Blue, Tail Bar and Primaries Dark.
Red Schimmel,
Tile/Brick Red, Skull/Head, light to dark schimmel(flecked), however can be without Flecking, Cheeks Pale, 
Neck, Breast, and Bars should be a Clear Brown-Red colour, Primareis and Tail, Pale, however the inner Feather Webbing of the Primaries will have coloured shading. Wing Shield with Dark/Light Schimmel(Flecking) the Tail Coverts shaded a light Reddish colour.
Yellow Schimmel,
as the Red Schimmel, the Ground Colour should be a soft 'Mustard' Yellow colour.

Faults,
too thin/weak in the Body, too long, too deep stance (Squat), thin, short, 'Frizzel', open or uneven Curls, Primaries too long, Black other than an intense Black ie. a 'Blueish' Tone. Whites, impure colour and Beak colour, poor Crest,.
Blue Schimmel, uneven Ground colour, 'Rust' and Flecks in the Primary feathers.
Red Schimmel, Blueish Shading, Solid coloured Feathers in the Tail and Primaries, Pale Beak, 
Yellow Schimmel, Blueish Tone, solid colour Feathers in the Tail and Primaries. Dark Beak.
Shields, White Feathers in the Shield, coloured Feathers in the White Ground Colour, poor Colour and Markings, less than 7 or more than 12 White Primaries.

Order of importance,
Breed Type and Balance, Feather Structure, Body Form, Colour.

Ring Size : 9


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## dragoons.izzy

thepigeonkey said:


>


such beautiful birds


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## thepigeonkey

Thanks izzy, as you can see, the recessive red is only half Frillback. It's snowing here in Christchurch and winter hasn't even started. I would love to heat the loft as I have a couple of pairs who are through the moult and down on eggs again but its another cost. I think they'll be ok in the cold.


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## thepigeonkey




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## thepigeonkey




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## thepigeonkey




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## thepigeonkey

Most of the birds pictured above are obviously not pure Frillbacks, they are 'project birds'.
For some strange reason I am looking for a feeling of self accomplishment or satisfaction. I'm somewhere between an artist and Einstein. My aim is to breed self Frillbacks with white bars. In my eyes a self bird with white bars is the nicest to look at.
To move a new colour onto a Frillback takes many generations to get the curl back. Dominant genes are easy to breed in and hard to breed out. Recessive genes are easy to breed out and hard to breed in. The toy stencil complex needs three different genes to show white bars or white checks. It is one of the harder modifiers to move from one breed to another.


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## RockPigeon<3er

Hi
We're interested in getting a few pigeons (my family), and I've always adored frillbacks, do they need any special care? Can they fly? Thanks <3
Beautiful birds, btw.


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## thepigeonkey

No special care is needed. They are a pleasure to keep and breed. They don't fly much and are easy to home to a loft. Frillbacks are hard to come by and with the postal service going down hill it may get even harder.
There are breeders spread all over the states and the world. If your determined, you'll find some. I'd like to see the almonds grow in popularity.


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## thepigeonkey

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2128&pictureid=25252

What is it?


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## Woodnative

Luke-
Can you mail pigeons in New Zealand same as here??
It would be nice to pair an almond with that bronzy/kite bird you show above!
I have not yet figured out how the white mottling works on these rec reds? Our original hen is rec red dilute but later rec reds have gotten this white mottling. Very nice on the eye and probably useful towards whitesides. 
Frillbacks are a challenge and a joy to work with. We enjoy them immensely and they alway get very positive comments even from non pigeon people as they are so unique and beautiful.


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## thepigeonkey

There is a bus called the pet bus which travels from the top of the north island to the bottom of the south island every month or so. I have sent numerous Frillbacks all over the country.
Epul says his bird is a black but I know there is something going on there other than spread. It looks copper. Maybe kite and maybe het recessive red. Its amazing, I've never seen a bird that colour.


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## RockPigeon<3er

Does anyone know any breeders who have some for sale or fairly soon?
Those German birds are beautiful! (Lol, wonder what the shipping would cost if they'd even do it....)

I live in Alaska too, so, shipping required. ^^
Really wanting a pair or 2 of these cuties


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## Woodnative

We will have some young birds for sale. Not sure about shipping to Alaska(?) if i is any different. . It is very HOT here today anyway but that may moderate. You can pm me or frillbacklover if interested. What type of loft do you have?? How long have you had pigeons?


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## Dianne

*odd color*

Here is an odd color bird who's sire is an ash red and his mother is a kite hen, I call him a chocolate color with an ash tail, he is shown with an ash red for comparison, I just can't call him red.


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## NZ Pigeon

I am guessing but I suspect the kite is richening up a yellow bird, The bird almost looks pale, I was not aware of that being in frillbacks though.


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## Dianne

I wondered if this could be a yellow bird but just darker than what I would normally see, and I'm not sure what "pale" is
Thanks for your thoughts


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## thepigeonkey

Looks like a pale, ash red, t-cheque, heterozygous grizzle, probably dirty but this would mean it has to be a hen. Pale is what makes a gold white-side. 
The ash red in the back ground looks het grizzle also. 
The white one at the front looks like ash red het blue (making it a cock), spread and grizzle or is it a grizzle almond?
How many Frillbacks do you have now? I like the variety


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## thepigeonkey

Intense (wild type)
Pale
Dilute
Extreme dilute

They are all alleles at the Dilution locus. Dilution is sex linked. So pale works very much the same as dilute. Dilute red is yellow and pale red is gold.


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## Dianne

Thank you for the explanation, I'll throw one more thing at you that is different on this bird against all others in the loft. He has "barred" muffs, it is easily seen in person but my camera just isn't the best, the bars seem a darker color than she is not black. Another thing, what about that ash tail? The other bird in front of this one is a lavender, I have another but it is much darker than this one. Yes, I have a wide variety of colors and going to start breeding almonds with the help of Chris to add just a little more color.


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## Woodnative

I think those are caused by "pauses" during growth (of the feather)?


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## NZ Pigeon

Yes I think Chris is right with the bars, Stress marks - but I believe its common with young birds that have muffs.

Dianne, The ash tail is explained by the fact the bird is ash red based with dilute or pale, Dilute and pale do not affect the ash colour so much. Pale is basically dilute but not as dilute so that would explain the bird appearing sort of red and sort of yellow to you.


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## Dianne

Well that's an interesting thought, I have never seen them on any of my other birds.


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## Dianne

You guys are a wealth of knowledge and just the best!
Are we saying were going to call this birds color Pale? Would this color breed true and what color mate would be needed to reproduce it (if it is pale) This is a pretty color.


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## NZ Pigeon

If it is pale as Luke said its a hen so if you pair it to an ash red cock NONE off the offspring will be pale but ALL cocks will carry the pale gene, Those cocks will produce hens similar to this.

I would like to see a pale hen paired to an almond cock. From what I understand the linkage with the base colour gene, almond and dilute can cause some amazing phenotypes when combined on one bird.

The stress marks (if that is what they are) occur for many reasons, A cold night, a slightly late feed one day, Its nothing too serious or nothing that reflects badly on you, just something that happens from time to time.


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## Dianne

I am almost certain this bird is a hen and I have an ash red who should carry the whiteside gene, that would be interesting.

I'm also getting an almond cock from Chris so maybe that will happen latter too but we could never tell Rolly. (this might be a private joke)

This bird was born in the winter, I hope it was just for the cold nights and sometimes days too.

I really like this bird, thanks so much for giving me so much insight on her and how to go about breeding her in the future. I would like to get this color again sometime.

Evan, You have been very kind and informative and I very much appreciate your time and patience with me.


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## Woodnative

Interesting if it is pale......another gene "hidden" in this group!! Awesome!


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## thepigeonkey

Actually if you have a dilute cock, you can breed her (the pale hen) to him and all cocks will be pale (carrying dilute) because pale is dominant to dilute. Its also sex linked, the hens will all be dilute. Hope that made sense, it did in my head. Luke


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## Print Tippler

Hello, Frank Mosca states on his website


> A cock bird heterozygous for dilution/pale is often very similar in phenotype to a homozygous dilute.


In regards to it being hidden he states


> Because pale isan allele to dilution it may be carried unnoticed to many breeds......Such a bird may well introduce pale into a stud which has not seen it before. On the other hand, a cock heterozygous for wild-type/pale, may show little if any change from wild-type. Again, pale may well be introduced to a new stud and be carried along for ages before being combined into a homozygous carrier.


He also states there's room for study.


> There's still lots of room for anyone interested in documenting pale's place in the pigeon world


And it may be more common than people think.


> I also feel - with only slight evidence - that pale is much more evident in the pigeon world than is commonly believed. Some "flat" blacks I produced which I knew to be pale Spread were identical to birds I'd been told were just poorly colored blacks in many breeds. Similarly, certain lighter blues were almost identical to light blue families I've seen in race birds.


I'm have been having a tough time myself on deciding if some of my browns are pale or dilute (khaki) and same with a golds/yellows. Im leaning strongly towards pale but still leaving the door open for them being just well colored dilutes. 

If you look at what color the standards call for they often call for dilutes to be very intense (ironic) and many cases the dilutes should really be pale to meet the color, that is what I believe.

Here are a two unrelated yellows/golds. One I bred off of two reds, the other I bought. I can get pictures of the pale browns / khaki if there's interest. Sorry they couldn't be frillbacks as I know that is what this thread is about but for discussion here they are.

First two pictures are the same bird


















And this one









I go back and forth on deciding what they are. First one is obviously a hen (came from two reds) and second is a cock. I have others that are dark and not like light yellows at all but these two are my richest examples.

The website page I was quoting from is here
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/dilutepale.html

His example of a pale is close to the frillback posted and I find mine more in between.

In regards to who you should breed it to the most obvious answer to me is back to the one who already has the gene... The father. That is what will be "locking it down" from that generation you can take it to other birds with different traits.


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## Dianne

The middle picture most resembles my birds color, I wish I would have taken pictures of this bird when it was hatched to see what the down looked like, I thought I read somewhere (thanks to you all) where the pale down may be shorter than normal but not naked like the dilute. As for the pale brown, khaki I would love to see pics of those. Thank you for your thoughts and as for breeding back to the father, I'm such a newbe at this color thing but it seems to make sense.


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## Print Tippler

Hi, I took a video showing some of the differences. Please note I only believe some of these to be pale and others dilute. It will still take me some time of studying until I have come to final conclusions. Please stay tuned to the video at the end I show two babies off the pair and show how one has down. It was more noticeable at hatching and shortly after. I was going to be done breeding from the pair but I'm not all to sure now. The hen throws awful white flight marking and is my only bird doing so but that's a whole different thing.


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## hamza syed

Print Tippler said:


> Hi, I took a video showing some of the differences. Please note I only believe some of these to be pale and others dilute. It will still take me some time of studying until I have come to final conclusions. Please stay tuned to the video at the end I show two babies off the pair and show how one has down. It was more noticeable at hatching and shortly after. I was going to be done breeding from the pair but I'm not all to sure now. The hen throws awful white flight marking and is my only bird doing so but that's a whole different thing.


Nice Birds.. And long time no see Print Tippler


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## Dianne

I love the brown color, it might be my favorite, the video was really interesting to see the variation of color even between birds, it is hard for my untrained eye to see a big difference between khaki and pale on some of the birds but again this is the first being exposed to these colors and being told what they are. You aught to make a living doing videos showing different colors, I don't know anyone within 50 miles who does pigeons and the learning is a hard curve. Some people have pigeons but they don't know anything, they just have them. Thank you for taking the time to make this video and share it for me (us) I appreciate it.


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## Dianne

Luke, I didn't see your post until now, actually I got my first dilute rec. yellow, of course I have no idea of sex but thanks and it did make sense.
Dianne


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## thepigeonkey

Did the dilute have non dilute parents? If it did then its a hen as well.


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## Dianne

Actually it is a full sister to the pale, Ash red father and kite mother. So pale follows the same rules as dilute for sex link?
This may be hard to believe but I think this is sinking in.
thanks
Dianne


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## thepigeonkey

Ok, so its not a pale then. It is dilute and kite. Both parents are intense (wild type for dilution) but the cock carries dilute. He can only be intense and dilute or intense and pale, not all three. Since dilution is sex linked the hen only has one gene for dilution and that is what she is. In your case the hen is intense (normal/wild type for dilution).


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## thepigeonkey

Play with this calculator. Ash red cock carrying dilute x blue kite hen. Are they grizzle and does the cock also carry blue? If you punch in exactly what you have and click calculate, you'll get a complete breakdown of the offspring.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...special.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13737331287678


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## Dianne

I don't quite understand the first post, I'm not doubting the bird is pale, and thanks for the link for the calculator, I'll try it.
I appreciate all the help, I'm such a novice at all of this, maybe sometimes I might get my wording wrong, if so I'm sorry.
Dianne


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## NZ Pigeon

Luke discovered the bird cannot be pale, The cockbird has thrown a dilute and it is non dilute. Non dilute, Pale, Dilute and extreme dilute are closely related genetically (alleles), therefore a cock can only have 2 of the four options, If he has thrown dilutes and is non dilute those two options are filled so he cannot possibly produce pale birds.


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## Dianne

Okay, dumber than dumb (that me) gave you the wrong breeding. This is the bird in question for color, the hen she is out of (yellow whiteside), her sire is an Ash Red. This bird IS NOT from the first breeding I said, I feel so stupid, I went out and caught the bird and looked at the band and checked who the parents were. I bet your right, this is a pale.

No one can feel more stupid than me right now. And sorry I can't seem to get the one picture to come in straight,
Dianne


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## thepigeonkey

Couple of options for what may have happened. If the cock is intense (normal/wild type for dilution) and carries pale he can have both pale or intense daughters. The hen never gives her sex linked genes to he daughters. So basically if the cock carries pale he could have a pale hen.
Another option is if the cock is carrying dilute and his mate is a pale hen then they could have pale sons which carry dilute which is also quite possible.


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## Dianne

I'm not sure if this would add to the equation, but the cock is a full brother to the bird who sired the dilute rec. yellow.


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## Dianne

*Pale?*

This picture taken of the bird above today. Tried to put more pictures but they wouldn't load.


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## thepigeonkey

are the parents the birds in post #72? This sure looks like pale to me.


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## Dianne

Yes, that is her mother........ her father is an ash red
Last laying they produced an ash yellow.
thanks for looking again.


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## Dianne

Okay, need to clarify to make certain this is not misunderstood. The pics in thread 72 are of the mother (yellow whiteside) the other bird is the pale, but that picture makes her look much more yellow than she really is, the other pictures are more of a true representation of her color.


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## thepigeonkey

Is the Father the ash red in post #72? he looks like a pale too. The Father obviously carries dilute if the pair can throw a dilute. If this is true then the pair will only ever have pale or dilute offspring.


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## thepigeonkey

Opps I didn't read that last post when I asked that question.


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## thepigeonkey

I cant work out why its beak went from light to dark. Did it have a light or dark beak when it was in the nest?


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## Dianne

This is the father of the pale, he does carry dilute








trying to show what the baby looked like at hatching, not quite naked but very little down.


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## thepigeonkey

It had a light coloured beak but then it went dark?


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## thepigeonkey

If the father is ash red carrying pale and the hen is yellow then they can't breed yellows.
If the father is ash red carrying dilute then they can have dilute and non-dilute babies.... soooo I guess maybe it is (the bird in question) dilute carrying recessive red otherwise its non-dilute carrying recessive red. Pale technically can't be involved.


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## Dianne

The father is ash red carrying dilute and rec. red. he came from Christopher's birds if your familiar with them (Woodnative) these birds were listed for sale last year but not sure what the post number is but I'll look and see if I can find it. I looked all through my pictures trying to answer your question about the beak color and when it went dark, I don't know I can't find any pics that will give me clues but very interesting question. I should have some nest mates hatching out any day of the same breeding as this bird.


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## Dianne

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f8/fr...genetics-63146.html?highlight=Frillbacks+sale

This is the post I was referring to, the father is #1 bird

What color would you call this bird if pale can not be involved?


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## thepigeonkey

Now I think its ash red, t-cheque, dilute, dirty, het recessive red, kite and grizzle.


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## Dianne

Wow, ash red? Thanks for your thoughts
how do you come up with kite and grizzle? I am not very good at any of this, I'm not questioning your thoughts but just don't know.


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## thepigeonkey

Ash red and dilute is the genotype. Yellow is the phenotype. This yellow is very rich and almost red that's why I think kite may be involved, the father is also rich in colour and his sister was a kite. To me both parents look like they have some grizzle in them and it looked like grizzle on his undercarriage around his legs. Grizzle is sometimes completely hidden by t-cheque and sooty or dirty.


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## thepigeonkey

We know for sure he carries recessive red because his mother is recessive red dilute or at least she appears to be. You may know this already but from your pair which produced this rich yellow bird you should get half recessive red birds and the other half heterozygous recessive red (they will carry recessive red).


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## Dianne

Okay, finally got it, thanks and all that you say now has sunk in and makes perfect sense.


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## Dianne

Oh, the eggs hatched and there is another dilute,


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## Aschenfire

Here is my new Frillback cock...I am picking up a yellow hen for him this weekend. What color would you guys consider him?


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## Aschenfire

Oh and that guy does have light reddish wing bars, btw


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## Aschenfire

I also got this blue... I am leaning toward keeping him instead of the previous bird, and pairing him with the yellow hen I will be picking up. His curls are better and he is more calm and friendly.


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## Woodnative

The first cock looks "lavender".....spread ash red. It could also be a very light ash red but I think it is ash red + spread. Expression of these lavenders can be variable but I see them fairly frequently in frillbacks. I would see if you could get another good blue for your blue cock but I know frillbacks are hard to find sometimes and frillback hens moreso!


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## Aschenfire

Here is the pair I ended up with, and I love them! The little hen is only barely 6 months old so not had an adult moult yet. Hoping she gets curlier with her moult. I am pleased with these guys and they are sweet and friendly


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## Woodnative

Pretty. Sex linked colors so all young hens will be blue and young cocks will be red (split for blue). Where in the USA are you?


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## Aschenfire

Thank you  I am in Austin Texas. I got these birds from a lady in Hutto Texas who has a lot or really pretty Frillbacks


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## hamza syed

Really beautiful pigeon u got there m8


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