# what disease related to blood on beak? vomiting blood?



## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi, I need your urgent input on helping this birdie. I am so shocked seeing there is blood on her beak. Is she vomiting blood? Her poop seems OK to me, pretty dry. I'm not sure this is because she is not drinking enough water. 
please help, she seems very frightened when I try to open her mouth. she would not let me get close to her. If it is canker, is vomiting blood a very usual symtom? The poop with canker would be more messy?
Thanks again for helping.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Never had a bird vomiting blood. But to me, and what I've experienced with dogs and cats at work, it would be a GI upset of some sort.
If you can't get to an avian vet, the 1st thing I would do is worm with a *gentle* wormer (pyrantel (strongid) .12 ml for adult pigeon), then I would treat with metronidazole (50mg)(flagyl) once a day. Ideally, running a fecal culture and sensitivity would be the best. But if you can't, this is what I would do......and I have had very good luck with this regimen.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

That pigeon looks very, very sick to me. You were close enough to get a photo. I think you really HAVE to pick him/her up, wrap him in a towel, and examine the beak/mouth inside and out. Besides what may be dried blood I see what appears to be yellow discharge all around the beak area. It could be that a lesion inside the mouth broke off and bled.

Yes the pigeon will not like being handled and yes she will try to flee...but, really....you are likely going to have to medicate her anyway...so for the next few weeks she is going to have to get used to being picked up...right ?

Please get some better pics of the beak area...and examine the inside of his/her mouth for canker or inflammation.

Is he/she eating ???? Drinking ? Have you SEEN the pigeon eating and drinking ?

Thanks for posting your question.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi joyful,



The poops are typical of what how poops look when the Pigeon has Canker in their system.


As for Blood on the Beak itself, they can preen an injury and get Blood on their Beak, as well as have Blood come up with regurgitations from Canker or other Infection in the Mouth, Throat or Esophagus, as well as having injuries to the Beak itself, of course.


Can you post some more images, various angles of the Bird and their Face and Beak?

And, some more good close ups of recent poops/urates?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

thanks all for replying.
I have taken other pics, this is the best one that shown some redness on the beak. other side of her face looks very normal. Tomorrow if she poop again, I will take more pic. At this moment, I am worry I will lose her. She is very stubborn and refuse to open her mouth last time I tried to feed her water. Wonder if she will drink the medication ... how much is needed to be drink to be effective?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What meds do you have on hand?


Is ehs in an observation Cage where it is easy to see whatever poops are being made?


How many poops has she made in the last 24 hours?

Remove food and water from her access for now.


Is her Crop empty, slushy, full, solid, or?


If her Crop is stalled, oral Meds will not help untill you get that resolved.


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

This pic is from last night. 
why remove food and water?
how to be sure that her crop is in what state? just by touching?
If the crop is empty, how should it feel? 
I am very new to this. Hope you guys don't mind the very beginner questions as I mentioned this birdie is very nervous, she would not cooperate....Thanks again for answering.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What meds do you have?


I have to go work on some things a.s.a.p.

If you have any meds for Canker, consider to treat her for Canker "now".


You can feel the Crop gently to see if it has Seeds or Water or Both in it...her fecal matter is thin and like tiny 'snakes' showing foods are passing very slowly.

Canker can clog the Crop so it will not pass foods, or, even to where it will not pass liquids...in which case, you are likely 'SOL' unless you can get to an informed, experienced, Avian Vet who knows Pigeons.


Your Pigeon's Crop may still be able to pass it's contents, but, not likely for long unlesss right Meds are given, and, best to remove food for now regardless.

Water may be alright, if there are lots of Urates being made, but, we do not see that, so, I would say withdraw food AND Water till Meds have had a chance to work a couple days.



One with draws food and water so the Bird, if having a slow passing Crop, tending to be full of infection and spoiling material, and or even open lesions, does not make it worse for trying to eat or drink more...which also pretty well ruins the efficacy of oral Meds if it is full of other stuff which is nmot passing in a timely way.


Supply Warmth...


Review this Thread which is on-going for more understanding of this sort of condition and it's complexity -


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-coughed-smells-like-blood-48748.html


& also, may as well review this one which is also on-going - 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/punk-young-hen-following-worming-48683.html


Some instances of Canker are simple, and, easy to treat.

Some are more complicated, and or have other things going on also.

Blood coming up suggests advanced, open lesions...so really, this Bird needs Anti-Canker Meds, a good Systemic Antibiotic, and, probably Medistatin also.


If you can appeal to an experienced, Pigeon Friendly Vet or Rehabber tomorrow morning, first thing, I would say do so.


This is a pretty sophisticated order of Treatment which is needed...as well as the Meds, which few people would have on Hand unless they were a rehabber or Vet.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

That is a lot of information to be giving Joyful right now, I think (good information....but...I think it needs to be simplified).

1) I would agree with PDP above...the BEST course of action is to get her to an avian vet. There is nothing as good as an avian vet. If there is one near you.

2)If you CANNOT get the pigeon to a vet...the medication you need to start her on as soon as possible is *Metronidazole*. Or *Ronidazole*. If you do not have any....often a fish/aquarium supply store will have some Metronidazole, or a big petfood chain store. 
It is sometimes called FishZole. But there are other names for it. Ask a pet supply or fish supply store. Just make sure you get _PURE_ metronidazole...with no additives or other ingredients in it. Tell us when you have some, we can tell you the dosages.

3) Phil's concern is that the poops may indicate that food is passing TOO SLOWLY through the pigeon's digestive system. Meaning it COULD BE that his/her crop is emptying slowly because it has Canker in it.

This is important because the medicine he/she needs has to be given in the mouth, with a plastic syringe. So it is important that the crop is functioning at least OK, so the medicine can have an effect and do its job.

So when Phil says check the Crop...the Crop is below the pigeon's chin, and above his breast. It is connected to the mouth and esophagus. The food goes there first after it is swallowed. When it is full, it is a bit 'puffy'.

IF the Crop feels either hard, or like there are pebbles or sand inside, or like there is water in a balloon....then it is not emptying properly. But, if it doesn't feel like any of those things, then it is still functioning OK.

Let's take it from there. Do not worry, you are doing an OK job so far. Keep the pigeon in a very warm place, check the crop, tell us what if feels like.....and try to find some medicine if you cannot find a vet.


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

thank you all for your valuable info. SHe is sleeping now, hope there is still time to help her. I will check the crop in the morning. She will have Metronidazole if the place has stock. I feel so sad that we only noticed this in the late evening when store has closed.
She is still eating last night, but not today.
what is "SOL"?
If I remove Food and water, will she be too thirsty? 
Can I give her plain water or with Vitamin, Vinegar ?

plastic syringe.?? does it have to have a sharp needle in it? This definitely scared me. 
If the crop had food or water in it, how to help her to empty it? induce vomiting?
we need prayers. Hope She still has time. I love her dearly, hope she will live. Thanks again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The usual 60 mG Metroniudaole Tablets can be simply broken into fourths, and, put into their Beak one piece at a time, for them to swallow.


Whether or not food and water are to be with held, depends on how their Crop is passing.


A Syringe for administering liquid Foods or Medicines into the Crop directly, is fitted with a very soft, section of Silicone pediatric Urinary Catheter, or, in some cases a bulb end Metallic Lavage impliment.

NEVER with any sort of 'Needle' or anything else which would abrade, perforate or harm delicate Esophagul and Crop Tissues.


Unless you can evaluate the condition of the Crop for how it is passing whatever contents it has in it already, you best with draw the Food anyway, for now.


If the Crop appears to have a fairly normal and non slushy feel, you could allow her access to Water for the time being.


Do not try to induce Vomiting.



Petsmart may carry 'Fish Zole', and, also, some sort of broad spectrum Sulfa based antibiotics.

If so, and if no Vet is accessible tomorrow, get those if you can, and, report back to your Thread for further dosing details.


Provide supplimental, warmth for now if you can...so she is warm and comforted, soft cloths, draped Cage...


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

I had read somewhere it is better to have two types of medicine for canker. Do the fish store has other types of medicine I should consider? so I can buy them together.
Can an eyedropper be good enough? I do not know what to do she just would not open her mouth like last time?
Thank you again for answering. BIG THANKS


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Get to a competent Vet if you can.

If not, get what Meds you can as described above for this issue, get the meds where you can, and, check in THEN for dosage and method-administration details and info.


Get some form of Metronidazole, and, some form of broad spectrum Antibiotic.


Check with us once you have them for further details on dose and how to give, since those details will depend on what the Meds are which you will have in your hand then.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Joyful, I found this place a few months ago for another member in your area, he was able to by a med there called Triple-Sulfa by API (a broad spectrum antibiotic), and I would think you should be able to get Metronidazole there, also called Metroplex, Metrozol or Hex-A-Mit, just make sure it is 100% Metronidazole, Also, you should be able to get 1cc syringes from almost any drug store, the kind with no needle to give the meds. Just make sure if you get the meds you check back for instructions on how to mix them and how to give them and how much to give, as giving wrong dosing can be quite bad for a bird. They are open Sundays. 

Finally, we here want to help you, but speaking for myself, the times I have tried, in a few threads now, you have been non-responsive in answering questions and then just seem to fade away on most of your threads as well. To be of help to you, you have to help us, please do not do this anymore in your threads.

http://www.bigalscanada.com/Stores/Locations/Scarborough/scarborough.html

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Dear Karyn, Phil, Jaye and all other pigeon lovers who had replied all my various posts:
you all are very kind to me and to the pigeons. THANK U so much. Sadly, all the birds I have tried to help, ...dead ...before I can tried to buy and adminstrate med to help them. They usually died the next morning. Some in two days, when I still trying to research their symtoms, gather their poop ,observe... please Forgive me, that I did not updated all these sad news. In Nov, a lot of wild pigeons died of different diseases. I feel overwhelmed and extremely sad.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Joyful, it is understandably hard sometimes to report sad news, but if people are working with you on a thread you need to let the people know what has happened, so they are not just left wondering and then less likely to help you in the future. Also, if people ask you specific questions PLEASE answer the questions as best and as fully as you can, the question(s) are being asked in order to make proper judgments in offing help, good help is hard to offer without the necessary facts. 

Finally again, it seems like you want to help these birds and the same meds (broad spectrum antibiotic and Metronidazole) that don't cost a lot, have been suggested to you in the past, if you were responsive from your earlier posts and followed through, you most likely would now have these same meds on hand to not only help this bird, but perhaps a few others before this one. Please do what you can to either get this bird to a vet or go and get the meds you will need to treat with.

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Karyn, I wish I live in the States, where I can order every med by brand names online as suggested. That would made life much easier... 
Remind me again,
what medicine is needed to treat Coccidiosis, PMV? ECoil? Salmonellosis? Did I left out any common disease I should have medicine on hand? 
So I can get them all when I go to the fish shop.
Is it possible for a bird to have several disease e g Canker and Cocci at the same time? 
Is there a good site that list all the symtoms so I definitely give the bird the right medicine with right amount?
Thanks all for replying.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

joyful said:


> I live in Canada. birds are wild and I just feeding them. there is no particular smell. I look up " coccidiosis" I feel the pigeons had them, very similar symtoms. Do you think someone had released some sick birds in their loft to cause a few birds die so rapidly in a week?
> if it is Coccidiosis, can you suggest how to prevent a outbreak?
> how to administer the medicine? Do you have any pigeons fully recovered from this? I am worry they will die of dehydration or starvation as they lose their appetite. thank you all for replying. THANKS





joyful said:


> thank you all for your speedy replies. I have read some "sticky' on this site and I have put Barn in a box in a quiet, dark corner in the house. Barn is safe and warm. I also did prepared the solution and put it in the box.
> 
> three hours later, breathing seems not so rapid. but the head is way down, touching the 'floor" of the box and I guess Barn is sleeping. From his current position, I cannot even see if the eyes are closed or opened. Is this a symptom of a disease?
> 
> ...





joyful said:


> Hi, Karyn. thank you for replying and helping again.
> Mgl is Miligram per litre. wonder what is it in CC? trying to administrate medicine. they suggest vaccination. I am scared. can I do eyedropping method?





Dobato said:


> If this is a medicine or vaccination you are trying to do, then* "0.1 mgl to 1 gram of body weight"* does not make sense, as this will mean 1cc to 10g or 10cc to 100g or 35cc for 350g, the 350g being a fairly average weight for a pigeon. Please take your time with this, and get things right, read the instructions again, post up the kind and where you got the medicine from, as there may be someone here who is familiar with correct dosing for the brand/kind/type you got.
> 
> FYI; 1mL = 1cc
> 
> Karyn


Joyful, it is not in my nature to try and corner a person, this is not my intention here, I am just a little confused because you have come here, with a number of birds now, who you say all have died, I need to know, again for myself, what is going on with you.

You say you are in the Toronto area, in my post, I told you specifically where a member from the same area purchased required meds from ans you seem to have bypassed this all together. In a few of your threads, including this one, you have said this:



> Wonder if she will drink the medication ... how much is needed to be drink to be effective?


Indicating to me you have some kind of medicine you are/have been trying to use, because you keep say this same thing.



> trying to administrate medicine. they suggest vaccination


Above is a snippet of your third quote, just who the "they" you are referring to?

In one of your quotes above you say you trying to measure and administer meds, so this must mean you do have something there you are trying to use, but never replied in this thread to help I was trying to give you, you disappeared. Now you are back in this thread again asking the same question(s), not answering specific requests for information. Please, don't feel bad or go away, I will help you, as will others, but it is very hard when I have no idea what is really going on with you. Please explain what is going on with you and help clarify my confusion, so I can help you with this bird and others in the future.

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Karyn, because I am researching and I am reading all the information and try to understand the info from various websites. those are where the "them" and " vaccination" comes from. I am asking the things that the article is not clear about. The right type of diagnosis is as important as the right type and right amount of medicine. As I said, all the pigeons are wild, I do have a hard time holding them as they are extremely scared. I guess if they let me catch them without a struggle at the first place, may indicate they are very ill. This is why I want to extra careful not to add extra stress to them and frankly I am not a trained person to do med tasks. I keep asking if there is any "easier" way like hoping birds can drink med on their own. I ask detailedly about administrating medicine,as I had no experience. Sorry to confuse you, asking repeatedly similar questions about every bird's situation as I am fearful. Drinking part sometimes refer to all the vinegar, sugarwater for newcomers. "disappear" because I feel so sad that I do not want to end every thread saying "I am shocked at their sudden death, sorry there is no time to give them full period of medicine and hope he/she last night is peaceful and warm" 
I did feel guility and very sad about their deaths.
Thanks for suggesting the site and "equivalent" chemicals, the birds did dead before I can go to the store afterwork. If I am buying medicine and it is a special trip I cannot go everyday,pLease suggest some other medicine I need to be on hand for other diseases, so I can pick them up in the fish store too. there is no bird medicine store here. thanks.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

joyful said:


> Karyn, because I am researching and I am reading all the information and try to understand the info from various websites. those are where the "them" and " vaccination" comes from. I am asking the things that the article is not clear about. The right type of diagnosis is as important as the right type and right amount of medicine. As I said, all the pigeons are wild, I do have a hard time holding them as they are extremely scared. I guess if they let me catch them without a struggle at the first place, may indicate they are very ill. This is why I want to extra careful not to add extra stress to them and frankly I am not a trained person to do med tasks. I keep asking if there is any "easier" way. I ask detailedly about administrating medicine,as I had no experience. Sorry to confuse you, answering repeatedly about every bird's situation as I am fearful. Drinking part sometimes refer to all the vinegar, sugarwater for newcomers. "disappear" because I feel so sad that I do not want to end every thread saying "I am shocked at their sudden death, sorry there is no time to give them full period of medicine and hope he/she last night is peaceful and warm"
> I did feel guility and very sad about their deaths.
> If I am buying medicine and it is a special trip I cannot go everyday,pLease suggest some other medicine I need to be on hand for other diseases, so I can pick them up in the fish store too. there is no bird medicine store here. thanks.


Sometimes one can 'research' too much, and if you try to take in too much info, you'll just confuse the issue.
You need to focus on one thing at a time. -
_Do you have any medications from the previous birds you took in that were ill?_
IF you do - _What are they?_


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Joyful, I will try again for you. As Mdfreebird says, to paraphrase, sometimes while you are researching a bird could be dying. You came here because, although we don't know everything, we know enough in many cases to be very specific with instructions on what to do and what to use to help an ill bird. You will not be able to learn in a short period of time what it has taken us here many years to learn, so if we are going to be of help, doing the research if fine, but you need to follow our suggestions and do them ASAP if they are going to be of any use.

The store in the link I gave before, here it is again: http://www.bigalscanada.com/Stores/Locations/Scarborough/scarborough.html

was called this morning and they have both Metroplex (Metronidazole) and Triple-Sulfa by API (broad-spectrum antibiotic) and they, as mentioned already, are open today (and although both meds are labeled for use with fish, the same meds are used to treat birds as well). If you are going to help this bird you need to go and get these two medicines, there will be enough medicine in the two packages you buy to treat many, many birds, you will not have to keep making trips. It's up to you now.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I sort of think that this conversation is going in circles. 

Joyful...you say you want to 'research' before buying the meds, because you do not want to buy the wrong meds. 

Yet, as has been pointed out by others....in the meantime, your pigeon patients have all passed; and if I understand correctly....you do not have any medication on hand....yet. Although you have been posting here now for a few weeks; and people have been suggesting the proper medications to buy.

It is heartbreaking when we lose an ill pigeon. But the thing about treating them is this:

If you are able to catch an ill pigeon...then that pigeon is already _very _ill....because a human was able to catch it.

So...once secured, one really needs to begin treatment fast....oftentimes immediately. Illness doesn't wait for a trip to the store, or 3-day shipping. In your threads, your pigeons have declined very, very quickly. You can now see how important fast administration of medication is.

This is why it's important to have medications on hand already. 

Whether one lives in Canada or Guam....shipping goes everywhere these days. Even if you do not have a supplier/store in your country.

Dobato has answered your questions a few times:

*Metronidazole* = 'Metroplex' = 'FishZole' for canker
*
Triple-Sulfa* as a broad-spectrum antibiotic for many things.

To this, also get:

*Amoxycillin* = 'FishMox' (another broad spectrum antibiotic)

*Ivermectin* as a general wormer.

*Clazuril* = 'Appartex' as an anti-coccidial.

That's a good medicine cabinet. Total cost of about $100usd. Yes there are about 4 or 5 other meds, but this is the basic setup most people come to.

_If money is an issue_....and you need to skip one or two, skip the Amoxycillin and the Ivermectin for now (because it sounds like the afflictions of your flocks would be more responsive to the other meds). That would drop your total cost to around $50-60usd.

These all can be acquired very quickly...whether via internet, phone, or in person.....particularly if you are in Canada.

You get these, then all you need to do is post a thread with the symptoms, and Forum members will be glad to tell you which medication to grab from your medicine cabinet.

Thanks for caring so much for the pigeons. I am sorry each time I hear about your losses. They are having a terrible time of it in your neighborhood. The flocks near you clearly have illness going around and I would imagine you will rescue others quite soon. So, keep it up...just get those meds now


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks, Jaye. Later, I will tried to see if I can find all the other three equivalent chemicals for pet and hope they are non prescriptive pills. 
you are right, illness can come suddenly overnight. I have learned it is important to have medicine on hands. I will definitely put buying pigeon medicine on my priority list. 

what medicine is good for PMV or Paratyphoid?
need that on hands? 
Thank you all for clarifying and helping.


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi, MsFreebird: thanks for replying. Sadly, the birds died next morning and three only live one afternoon, few hours. They look like having different diseases. It is difficult to do diagnosis, if they do not poop right away. They died before I can go to the store. 
May it is a good preventive lesson for all new rescuers: buy different med beforehand and keep in mind that you may save the next bird without losing any precious time.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

joyful said:


> Hi, MsFreebird: thanks for replying. Sadly, the birds died next morning and three only live one afternoon, few hours. They look like having different diseases. It is difficult to do diagnosis, if they do not poop right away. They died before I can go to the store.
> May it is a good preventive lesson for all new rescuers: buy different med beforehand and thinking you can save the next bird without losing a moment.


 Is the CURRENT Bird still alive?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

joyful said:


> Thanks, Jaye. Later, I will tried to see if I can find all the other three equivalent chemicals for pet and hope they are non prescriptive pills.
> you are right, illness can come suddenly overnight. I have learned it is important to have medicine on hands. I will definitely put buying pigeon medicine on my priority list.
> 
> what medicine is good for PMV or Paratyphoid?
> ...


PMV is a virus that can't be treated. You'll need vaccines to prevent your birds from getting it. Paratyphoid can be treated by antibiotics like Sulmet.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Joyful, the store is only open a few more hours today, did you get the meds, or are you going to get the meds ASAP? You don't have to try and find anythiny!!!... you where to go and what to buy and given a link... do you need to do more research???... do not worry about PPMV right now...Joyful what's going on?

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

we got the Metro and sulfa. At this moment, she is still alive.
we only can get 5cc Syringe with needle attached. 
there is no ICC. Is 5CC better than 1CC? 
will a 3 ml eyedropper better and safer as she will fight and struggle with me?
The chop looks full, did not touch her yet. 
now, please recap again how to adminstrate metro? 
it is powder form, total 5 gm in a tube.
thanks for your help.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK.. good, why didn't you say thing were in progress. A 5cc syringe with a needle will be no good for our use, but we can cut the needle off and use it to measure as it will be too big to dose with.

Is the Metronidazole the Metroplex, where it on the directions it says 100mg per small scope inside? Is the Triple-Sulfa bu API, with 1000mg to each small foil pack. Can you run to the drug store and get a few small 1cc syringes without the needle attached? Do you have an eye dropper around the house?

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes! as they both are from the store you suggested. thanks again. I have eyedropper and a 3 ml needle. Just found and brought this syringe.. Hope this is a sign that she can be saved.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Joyful, yes I understand that. What we are going to do now, me helping you, is like a game of tennis or ping pong, I am going to hit the ball to you, ask you specific questions, and you need to hit the ball back to me, read each question carefully and answer them all as best you can, as soon as you can.

I asked the questions I did because I don't take anything for granted, and although I am fairly certain you purchased the meds mentioned, by the names I mentioned, there are a number of other companies that make similar meds and I need to 100% sure what you have there, to give you correct instructions to use them. So go back read all my questions and answer each one, thanks.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Joyful, did you see my last post above? Please answer the questions, I am waiting.

Thanks,

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

are you refering to med package. YES, They are 100mg per small scope inside. sulfa, with 1000mg to each small foil pack.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, I want you to take one scoop, this will be 100mg of the Metroplex, place this on a shiny magazine cover, now divide this evenly in half and you will have tow pile each containing 50mg of Metronidazole. Put 1 pile back in the bottle and that the other pile and mix this with one eyedropper full of water, stir in very well. I want you to slowly, one or two drops at a time give this to you bird until it is all gone. Do this each day, once a day at the same time, so you will do this again at 5-6pm tomorrow, for the next week.

For the Triple-Sulfa:

Each small, individual packet in the API box contains 1000mg of pure Triple-Sulfa med, I want you open one of these packs and dump it on something the glossy magazine cover again. Divide the little pile, like you did with the Metronidazole, of Triple Sulfa (TS) evenly in half so you will now have two pile of 500mg each, use a credit card or a business card, then put other half back in the pack and put away.

I want you to get a shot-glass or a very small container and add 10cc of pancake syrup to it, this will be 2 level teaspoons, scrape it all in with your finger (1 teaspoon = 5mL, use a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware teaspoon). Now with the half pack of the Triple-Sulfa you have set aside (500mg), add this into the 10mL of pancake syrup and stir very well in, cover and let sit for 15 minutes, stir very well again and it will be ready for use. You now have a 5% TS suspension (50mg/mL) to dose with.

Below is instructions for using a 1cc syringe, since you do not have one, I want you to use the eyedropper you have to give your bird 6 drops of this medicine you just mixed up, so the same when you wake up tomorrow morning as well. The I want you to go to any vets office or try any drug store and buy a few 1cc dosing syringes, they will not have a needle, and will cost less than $1 each. The eyedropper is OK, but we need a 1cc syringe to be exact. 

You will want to give 0.10mg for each 100mg of body weight. If you are not able to weigh the bird a good starting dose for an adult bird would be 0.30cc/mL twice a day (this is to the third line on a 1cc syringe and is roughly 6 drops, where there are 2 drops for each 0.10cc). Make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med to give a bird each time you use it and keep it in the refrigerator between use. Just gently open the bird's mouth and place 1-2 drops at a time in the front of his mouth and allow him to tongue it down

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

Is this bird eating or drinking on its own, please answer this question as soon as possible, as I have to go out with my family very soon. If you have any questions about the instructions above, please ask them as well.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Joyful, I forgot to mention you will have a much easier time if you get a small towel and wrap you bird up in what is called "burrito" style, when you wrap the bird up lake a burrito with his head poking out one end, this will help a great deal in controlling any struggling he may try and do. Also, just gently open his beak and place not more than two drops at a time of anything and let him swallow before giving more.

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

thanks for the instruction. 
are you suggesting both medicine at the same time daily?
bird need to be handfeed. she did not eat last 24 hours.
do I give water and seeds to her now? 
plain water or vinegar water?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

joyful said:


> thanks for the instruction.
> are you suggesting both medicine at the same time daily?
> bird need to be handfeed. she did not eat last 24 hours.
> do I give water and seeds to her now?
> plain water or vinegar water?


You will give both right now, but one of them, the Metronidazole, you will only give 50mg once a day (so next dose will be tomorrow 5-6pm), the other, the Triple-Sulfa you will give twice a day (so tomorrow when you wake up, then again 12 hours later and so on, every 12 hours).

Here is a video on how to hand-feed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

What kind of small food do you have on hand to feed him?

Also, if he is not drinking try getting a small cup with some tepid water in it (very slightly warm water) and guide his beak into it to see if he will drink, try a few times to give him a good chance. If he does not drink you will have to get the eyedropper you have and very slowly to the side of his beak dribble him drops of water, give him a chance to swallow, then give more drops, you will need to do this about 7-10 times ( do this whole procedure 4-5 times a day so he get 30cc of water for the day), as most eyedroppers hold about 1cc and you will spill some, he needs about 30cc of water a day so you will have to judge if he is getting enough, try the small cup again again tomorrow, if he didn't drink on his own and leave a water dish in his cage as well. If you leave seeds for him make them Finch/Budgie sized ones, no large seeds right now and make sure he can swallow these OK.

Karyn


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

thank you for your help. I have finch seeds and I will give her water and see if she drinks on her own. Hope she is better tomorrow. Thanks again.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Joyful,

I just wanted to give you some encouragement. I am also a complete beginner with giving medication to very sick wild birds, and I think I can understand your feelings of being overwhelmed with illnesses you don't understand, and your hesitation about doing things that feel so scary and potentially uncomfortable/deadly for the bird. Also, you are very empathetic and that makes it so hard to try anything that might cause pain or suffering; I know that feeling so well!! 

Karyn has been helping me too, and by following her instructions step by step, she has given me the confidence to keep going even when I don't think I have the emotional strength. I'm so glad she is helping you too. Just take one little step at a time, and please listen to her & Phil, and the others. And do your best; its all you can do.

PS. I have been picking up almost dead Pigeons for around 2 years, and every one of them has died. Most of them died within hours. With the ones who lasted longer, I called vets, wild-life carers, anyone I thought might help. Over time I found that even the ones who said they would help, didn't (they put the pigeons to sleep without even checking to see what was wrong), and I also discovered that most medications suggested on this forum cannot be purchased in stores here. But I didn't stop caring, or picking up the sick ones, even if it was just to make them comfortable, safe, and warm during their final hours.

But something I read on this forum lately really helped me a lot. It kind of `unstuck' me from the spiral of discouragement I'd been feeling. It was a thread by a man named `Fred' who has a huge amount of experience with helping feral pigeons. His experiences mirrored a lot of my own, in that even with his years of experience, he found that most of the ones he picked up off the street were too far gone to save. 

He came to the conclusion that in order to save more ill wild pigeons, they have a much better chance if they are caught at the first sign of illness. So this is what I have been striving to do. I am taming up my wild flock a bit better, so when they get sick I will have a better chance to catch them immediately, before they get too cold and weak. I've only caught two in this condition so far; unfortunately the first one I took to a wildlife carer who promised me she would care for it and not put her down. But she lied t me  The other one I still have with me now, and Karyn (my Angel) has been doing her best to help me to look after her.

I don't mean to say that your pigeons can't be saved either; I only mean to say give yourself a break and try your very best, knowing that anything you do is better than doing nothing.

Anyway, if you ever want some encourgament, here is the thread i was talking about by` Fred'. I would love to meet this guy some day; he is a champion.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/how-to-take-care-of-a-pigeon-in-trouble-4654.html


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, sounds good, please do make sure of both food and water, need need to be 100% sure he is drinking, if not you have to give him water and 100% sure he is eating, if not, you have to hand-feed.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am totally lost now.

I thought the Bird died, and, yet there is all this stuff now about seeds and meds and so on.


My poor head is not managing to keep track of this very well.


If there is a New Bird, for Pete's sake, start a NEW Thread..!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Joyful,
> 
> I just wanted to give you some encouragement. I am also a complete beginner with giving medication to very sick wild birds, and I think I can understand your feelings of being overwhelmed with illnesses you don't understand, and your hesitation about doing things that feel so scary and potentially uncomfortable/deadly for the bird. Also, you are very empathetic and that makes it so hard to try anything that might cause pain or suffering; I know that feeling so well!!
> 
> ...



Probably many of those 'too far gone' Birds could be saved.

Often, a downer Bird is seriously dehydrated, and, starved, and or hypothermic, in addition to being ill or injured or both.

These conditions typically tend to invite additional opportunistic illnesses or syndromes or conditions on top of whatever else was already ongoing.

Protocols for rehydration, and, for Calorie count seuqence/nutriment and warming the ABird to a proper core temperature at a rate his system can abide, ( so not too much too soon or too fast of eitgher warmth, orm, later on, calories, which can kill them if either is too soon or too much ) , and, for what meds in what sequence, and how adminstered, make enormous differences in survival rate.


Granted, some may be for all practical purposes too far gone...but usually, what that means, is that the rescuer or care giver or vet, did/does not know how to evaluate what needs to be done, and, does not know what to do, or, how to do it, in order for the Bird to make it.


It's all very mutable...

No one is ever going to catch Wild Birds at any 'first sign of illness', let alone, finding a criteria for whatever a 'first sign' would be, if it were even to be perceptible.

One will catch or capture or round up Wild Birds once their injury or illness has incapacitatated or compriomised them to a point where they are 'downed' or easy to catch.


Often this can mean, there is only a small window remaining, of time and opportunity, to save them.

On a scale, say, from one to ten, where, 'one' would be a first if imperceptible sign of illness, and, 'ten' is closed eyes, open Beak labored Breathing, and or collapsed, and or in a coma...


Generally, not untill they are at a seven or eight, would anyone even notice they appear to be ill.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil, 
I see what you mean, and I can also see now how dumb my post sounded . Sorry! Of course you're right; you can't pick and choose the condition a sick bird will be found in. And I certainly don't want to suggest that very ill birds shouldn't be helped.

I guess what i am trying to get across more than anything else is that in some of Joyful's posts, I have recognized something that I have often felt myself as a complete novice; a certain paralysis. And I think this paralysis comes from the grief and guilt associated with interfering with a dying critter, not being (or feeling) qualified to help, then seeing it suffer and die in you hands. Its a huge burden to carry. Also if you're not used to death and suffering, the grief can hit a novice so much worse than someone very experienced. Its hard to detach, and not feel overcome with guilt and just sadness from hoping so much the bird might make it, but seeing it die instead.

So perhaps I''m just weird, but somehow reading Fred's posts about the difficultly associated with curing severely emaciated birds helped me to overcome the paralysis I was feeling. Maybe I needed to be able to shift some of the burden for the bird's life to fate or something, instead of taking it all onboard myself, knowing I don't have the skill or qualifications to do the best job possible?

I know everyone gets through these hurdles differently; an some people are burdened with more empathy and guilt than others. I just felt I could relate to the hesitation Joyful has been feeling about some of the situations she has found herself n. I hope I make some sense?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> On a scale, say, from one to ten, where, 'one' would be a first if imperceptible sign of illness, and, 'ten' is closed eyes, open Beak labored Breathing, and or collapsed, and or in a coma...
> 
> 
> Generally, not untill they are at a seven or eight, would anyone even notice they appear to be ill.



Also, Thanks for explaining this to me Phil. I really appreciate the way you have worded this.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, Joyful to help with catching an injured/ill pigeon perhaps while still able to avoid capture by being able to still fly well, but noticeably ill:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=426363&postcount=3

Karyn


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Yikes is right*



pdpbison said:


> I am totally lost now.
> 
> I thought the Bird died, and, yet there is all this stuff now about seeds and meds and so on.
> 
> ...


I am still not sure what the heck happened. Some of this was good reading though but I am sure I am not going to refer back to this thread again. still shaking my head.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> I am totally lost now.
> 
> I thought the Bird died, and, yet there is all this stuff now about seeds and meds and so on.
> 
> ...


As of yesterday afternoon/evening, I believe the bird did not die.
I was confused also


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Phil,
> I see what you mean, and I can also see now how dumb my post sounded . Sorry! Of course you're right; you can't pick and choose the condition a sick bird will be found in. And I certainly don't want to suggest that very ill birds shouldn't be helped.
> 
> I guess what i am trying to get across more than anything else is that in some of Joyful's posts, I have recognized something that I have often felt myself as a complete novice; a certain paralysis. And I think this paralysis comes from the grief and guilt associated with interfering with a dying critter, not being (or feeling) qualified to help, then seeing it suffer and die in you hands. Its a huge burden to carry. Also if you're not used to death and suffering, the grief can hit a novice so much worse than someone very experienced. Its hard to detach, and not feel overcome with guilt and just sadness from hoping so much the bird might make it, but seeing it die instead.
> ...


I thought what you wrote was very nice and encouraging.
We were all novice's at one time, and I've experienced all the feelings you've mentioned at one time or another, and sometimes I still do (paralysis) if it's a NEW problem that I haven't encountered. But something inside me kicks in, and I go on 'auto pilot'. Just because I've been a vet tech for over 35 years, does not make me qualified to treat birds.......we don't treat many birds at my clinic, we refer them to the local avian vet. Everything I learned about treating pigeons, I learned from here on PT AND trial and error throughout the years. And yes, I am VERY sad when a bird doesn't make it, but you should not feel guilt. We do not have the final decision whether a bird is going to pull thru, we can only try and do our best. One should only feel guilt if they do nothing.
Another mistake, that I use to make, was researching TOO MUCH when you have the bird right in front of you waiting. You loose valuable time. And like Phil said, by the time we notice that a bird is sick, he is at 7 or 8 on the scale of 1 to 10. That's when you need to focus and do the basics 1st...heat then rehydration. It's amazing just how much the heat helps.
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the feelings you have are normal, and with the love you have for these birds you will overcome your fears in time. Every bird you try to help, you become more 'skilled'. And everything you need to know is right here at PT in the resources.
Again, what you wrote was very nice and words of encouragement never hurt


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...

Learning how to handle and hold the just got ill or injured Bird so he is not overly discomforted or frieightened or harmed by it, unto where one may pick or hold the Bird in ways where they will feel secure and relatively easy with it, even if nervous or a little skeptical or unsure.

Showing consideration and gentleness and tenderness to the Bird for them to allow you to examine them variously in holding them on your Lap on a Towel.


Proivide calm, sheltered, semi-private 3/4 Draped Cage accomidation for observation...investigate their condition with a view toward possible needs of rehydration...provide Warmth if it seems called for ( emaciation, weakness, conspicuous illness, 'fluffed up' Feathers ).

Make basic observations - inspect the Mouth, Throat, Trachea, length of the Neck palpated, Vent, Vent Feathers ( clean or soiled? ) Tummy palpated, Crop palpated...

Is the Crop full? Empty? Something inbetween? What consistency are the contents?

Are there any odors? To the Bird themselves, or, to their Mouth or Breath?


In the Observation Cage, is the Bird pooping?

How many poops in how many hours? What do the poops look like? What do the Urates look like?


How is the Bird standing? How are they Breathing? How are their Eyes?

Do they appear to be fatigued? Sleepy? Fluffed up? Withdrawn? resigned and closed Eyes even if spoken to or touched?

Do they appear alert? Interested in their surrounds? Attentive?

Many basic observations...make the observations carefully, intentionally, methodically, even if you do not know what you are looking for.


Any signs of injury? Blood anywhere? Droopy Wing? weight more on one Leg than the other? Any Feathers not in place or standing proud a little anywhere? Leaning? Any bilateral asymmetry of any sort to any aspect of their stance?


Depending on the results of these examinations and observations...things go from there.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good Will, helpful intentions, willingness and interest to aid...

However deeply felt, may not provide much for the downed or injured Bird, if impirical acumen, evaluating the Bird'
s condition critically, appliances, accomidations suitable for the Bird's comfort and sense of security, understanding of the applicibility and use of appropriate Medicines, Praxis generally, are absent or lacking or heavily incomplete.


Merely because a Pigeon is relatively small physically, does not mean their Medical and emotional/psychological conditions are any less complex or orchestral, than those of a human being.





Naive insistence or anxiousness to immediately force feed any Bird, soon as one has them in hand, oblivious and disintersted in the Bird's condition, is entirely inappropriate, and, sadly, many people do this.


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

The birdie is still alive this morning. Thanks all esp Karyn for your help. 
The confusion in this thread came from when Karyn asked me what had happened to all the birds in all my other 5 threads. The long conversation about death is refering to other pigeons in " my other threads" and why I did not continue to write and answered and "disappeared" with those threads. As mentioned, all the pigeons in previous threads have gone to heaven. Some only lived overnight, some died within one afternoon.

Just writing to update: She is still alive. 
But there is no poop and a few spots of urine, white in color. She is so stubborn do not like me to feed her. she closed her beak, refusing any water when I held her. I am worry she will died of dehydration. ...worry, worry.
I have to pray that she is willing to continue to take one medicine by syringe.


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

Dear Bella: 
thanks for the kind words. Hoping to have medicine on hands, more birdie can be saved. Need to pray there is no more sick birds in the neigbourhood. There is no need to rescue.
Best wishes, Joy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

joyful said:


> The birdie is still alive this morning. Thanks all esp Karyn for your help.
> The confusion in this thread came from when Karyn asked me what had happened to all the birds in all my other 5 threads. The long conversation about death is refering to other pigeons in " my other threads" and why I did not continue to write and answered and "disappeared" with those threads. As mentioned, all the pigeons in previous threads have gone to heaven. Some only lived overnight, some died within one afternoon.
> 
> Just writing to update: She is still alive.
> ...


Joyful, you HAVE to feed and give her water or she will die, even though you are giving her medicine, dying from starvation and dehydration is not a nice way to die for these birds. If you feel you can not manage to do this, please ask someone in you family to help you. If no one will help please take this bird to the place I referred you to last May, here is the link again: http://www.torontowildlifecentre.com

To go over it again, you need to wrap her in a towel and hand feed her small bits of food, like thawed and warmed small frozen peas, you can feed her raw sunflower hearts or small chopped up pieces of raw, human grade, Spanish peanuts, you can feed like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow. Just gently pry open the beak and pop pieces of food to the back. Also she just may be able to self-feed a bit so make sure you have a dish of small seeds (no corn/peas/sunflower seeds in-the-shell, smaller seeds only) in her cage, and a dish of water at least 1" deep, if she is not moving around these need to be right next to her where she just need to stretch her neck to reach the dishes.

Here is a link on getting her to drink on her own:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11

If she won't drink herself as in the above link, please keep trying, but you will need to dribble water to the side of her beak, this may take many eyedroppers full, but she will get some this way.

Praying is fine and a good thing to do, but what she really needs as well is hands on help, Joyful if you and your family can not do what is required to help her, you need to take her to the Wildlife Center. This would not be my preference as many times these centers will just put to sleep pigeons that need a lot of help, but at least there she will either be helped of given quick relief from this life. You are giving the medicine she needs, but this in itself is not enough, please do not just let her wither away, either help her or take her for help. 

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Joyful,



Are you able to form an opinion about the condition of the Bird's Crop?


Does it have contents which have not been passing? Or which have been passing only very slowly?


If their Crop will pass, Liquid Foods would be best for the present -


Nutrical, Black Cherry Juice, maybe a little 'HT' added, a little Water, so it is 'soupy'.

Warmed to about Body Temperature.

For today, 5 mL worth...repeat in four hour increments.


This to be tubed in to the Crop directly, or, if she will drink it from a Shot Glass, that is fine also of course.


Images of the Urates?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

update:
she is much active today. She seems very hungry, eating seeds and drinks water on her own. still on meds. poop very little, not much to photograph. Thanks all for thinking about her.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

She needs to say on the meds for 10 days. Please post new photos of her and any droppings, no matter how little, or what you think they look like.

Karyn


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