# zeolite



## Julien

Hi,

I have bought the book ''Vet's Tips For Fanciers'' by Dr. Zsolt Talaber. In this book, Dr. Talaber has a very good article about Zeolite. I wrote to him to know the quantity we should mix into drinking water as it is not written in the article. I would like to know if someone already tried it and also the right quantity to use. Also, powder or liquid Zeolite. 

Raymond Julien,

Canada


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## Lovebirds

I've never heard of it. Below is one of many web sites about it. 


http://www.cellularzeolitecenter.com/LiquidZeolite.php


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## John_D

I never heard of it, either.

I can't imagine why it would be recommended for pigeons, to be honest, like various other 'natural' products that are supposed to work wonders.

John


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## george simon

HI RAYMOND, The first thing I would tell you is there are many people that try to take advantage of people new to pigeons. These people will try to sell you their idea's just to make money off you. Just look at all the pigeon catalogs and all the items they sell. Just what is this ZEOLITE supposed to do? .. GEORGE  .


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## Julien

*Zeolite*

Thanks all for your remarqs.

Here is the article Dr. Talaber wrote about Zeolite:

May I give zeolite to my pigeons? What is it exactly? What effect does it have on the pigeons?
*
Zeolite is a mineral of volcanic origin, based on aluminium hydroxy silicate. Its cross-linked crystal structure can hold large quantities of water, which is released by heat, and the material takes on a microporous structure. The spatial structure develops according to the temperature and duration of the heating, and this can be used to make expedient use of the adsorbent characteristic of zeolite. So it becomes suitable for the selective adsorption of harmful substances: gases, liquids, even parasitic eggs, pathogenic microbes and their poisonous metabolic products.
Given internally, similarly to medical carbon, its effect is to decrease diarrhoea by adsorbing harmful substances. We can add it to feed in a pigeons on trays. We can mix zeolite into drinking water if it is of suitable form (fine powder); this enriches the water with trace elements and stops pathogens from proliferating in it.
Zeolite is very rich in trace and micro elements. When it enters the pigeon’s system, zeolite deposits these elements, thus helping the metabolism and especially the operation of the immune system. Zeolite is an entirely natural substance, and we do not have to prepare for side-effects. We only have to ensure that we do not administer it together with other drugs, as it can also adsorb and block their active ingredients.
Scattered on the floor, zeolite decreases the noxious gas (first of all the very dangerous ammonia) concentration of the air in the loft, and its humidity. If we sense ammonia in the air, we should clean the loft more regularly, because the gas reaches the air from the droppings that accumulate on the floor. While it is no substitute for cleaning, afterwards it is very effective to scatter zeolite on the floor. In the process of removing the used zeolite we also remove huge amounts of pathogens, bacteria, viruses and eggs of parasites.
Coccidia and eggs of some worms need a damp environment to become infective once in the outside world. This means that regular cleaning of the loft is important, something we should pay even greater attention to in damp, humid weather. If the floor of the loft is damp and dries with difficulty, we should scatter an adsorbent material like zeolite on it.
For all these reasons, it would be worth making greater and more widespread use of zeolite than we see in pigeon-keeping today, since the more natural the substances and methods you can successfully implement, the more healthy and beautiful a flock you will have in the long run. The beneficial effect on your wallet will be felt even more quickly.


Tips:
If you have accidentally overdosed a drug, give adsorbent substances at once, i.e. medical carbon or zeolite, and a laxative, e.g. Epsom salt.
If you put zeolite into the water, it will form a fine coat on the surface of the drinker. It stops the proliferation of salmonellas in the drinking water.

Raymond Julien, Canada...


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## TheSnipes

I am intrigued. I would, however, like to know more...as in, how much to give/administer/add to water & feed.


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## jbangelfish

*Zeolite works like charcoal or carbon*

It is used in aquarium filtration to remove ammonia. The problem is that once it is saturated, it releases ammonia back into the water. Further, I believe that it does something in addition to this, once saturated. I tried it for a while when I was breeding alot of fish. It is not cheap when you have 100 aquariums or more to keep zeolite in them. It is far cheaper and just as effective to just do water changes and is what virtually every responsible fish breeder does.

While I don't see the benefit to this wonder product for pigeons, it could have some purpose. I just don't see the need for it, especially in every day usage.

Bill


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## Lovebirds

Interesting..........


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## John_D

jbangelfish said:


> While I don't see the benefit to this wonder product for pigeons, it could have some purpose. I just don't see the need for it, especially in every day usage.
> 
> Bill


Quite so, Bill. There are so many things out there ... I do not understand, if a pigeons is fit and feisty on a good diet and fresh air, what is to be gained by wonder supplements.

John


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## jbangelfish

*More thoughts on zeolite*

If we were to mix it in the floor litter, they would surely eat some of it as it is usually granular and would be taken in as grit. This may or may not be healthy and once contaminated (either by feces or by absorbtion of ammonia), certainly not healthy. In powdered form, it would not likely be ingested but it would also lose it's absorbing properties very quickly.

Pigeons are meant to run on an acidic system, which is why vinegar is beneficial to them. Zeolite would be pure alkaline and contradictory to a pigeon's needs. Not that they don't need calcium because we all know that they need that as well.

If your coop has so much ammonia that you are going to filter it with zeolite, I'd suggest it is time to clean your coop.

Just some random thoughts I've been having since reading this.

I agree about healthy diet and clean water. I don't think that they need much else. I have more to say about feed and will post another thread on that subject soon.

Bill


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## Julien

*Zeolite*

Thank you Bill,

Now, what can I do? Here is the add why I bought this book: 

'''_Vets Tips for Fanciers

The book (Click onto the photos)A BRAND NEW INTERNATIONAL PIGEON BOOK 

from world renowned pigeon vets -

for every fanciers,

in the very popular 
Question and Answer format. 

300 pages, hardback, full color, with many excellent photos.
*
The authors of the book are well-know pigeon vets from around the world:
Gordon Chalmers, Canada
Wim Peters, South Africa
Colin Walker, Australia
Pascal Lanneau, Belgium
Zsolt Talaber, Hungary''''

So it has also been sposered by 4 other great vets. I have written 3 times up to now to Dr. Talaber but never get a single answer! 

What do you think, all of you about this situation?

Raymond Julien, Canada.
Now only 49.95 USD order online_''''


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## Julien

*Zeolite*

Hi all and specially Bill,

As I have no information from Dr. Talaber, I will write to the 5 vets that wrote the book.

I already have the e-mail adress of Dr. Zsolt Talaber from Hungary, Dr. Gordon Chalmers from Canada and Dr. Collins Wayker from Australia.

Does any body have the two other vets E-mail address:

Dr. Wim Piters South Africa and
Dr. Pascal Lanneau from Belgium.

Thank you very much for your precious help.

Raymond Julien.


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## spirit wings

I googled and found this on the liquid form, talking of human consumption. does'nt sound good.http://www.cqs.com/zeolite.htm


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## jbangelfish

*I will see what I can find about the book*



Julien said:


> Thank you Bill,
> 
> Now, what can I do? Here is the add why I bought this book:
> 
> '''_Vets Tips for Fanciers
> 
> The book (Click onto the photos)A BRAND NEW INTERNATIONAL PIGEON BOOK
> 
> from world renowned pigeon vets -
> 
> for every fanciers,
> 
> in the very popular
> Question and Answer format.
> 
> 300 pages, hardback, full color, with many excellent photos.
> *
> The authors of the book are well-know pigeon vets from around the world:
> Gordon Chalmers, Canada
> Wim Peters, South Africa
> Colin Walker, Australia
> Pascal Lanneau, Belgium
> Zsolt Talaber, Hungary''''
> 
> So it has also been sposered by 4 other great vets. I have written 3 times up to now to Dr. Talaber but never get a single answer!
> 
> What do you think, all of you about this situation?
> 
> Raymond Julien, Canada.
> Now only 49.95 USD order online_''''


I'd like to know first of all if these people are actually veterinarians. Secondly, I'd want to know if they are pigeon keepers and how much experience they have.

Just because people write a book doesn't mean that they know all the answers. This is why I don't write books as I don't know all the answers. I could have written books on many subjects and maybe someday I will but until I feel like I know it all, I'm not writing them.

When it comes to books on pigeons, I only have a very few. I have the Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds by Levi and I have a notebook type on genetics by Quinn. The Encyclopedia has photos of every breed that they could find when it was written. Herbert Axelrod (owner of TFH) urged Levi to write it as he was probably the leading authority on pigeons at the time.

Axelrod has probably written as many books as Stephen King but most of them are vague, uninteresting and of little value to me. He made a lot of money selling books. He might know as much about fish as anyone but he knows alot more about selling them and selling books and how wealthy this made him. He did discover the Cardinal Tetra and I have to give him credit for that, it bears his name as Axelrodi.

When it comes to taking care of pigeons, I have always relied on my own experiences and the experiences of old pigeon breeders. Clair Hetland knew as much as anyone about pigeons and to my knowledge, he never wrote a book. If I was stumped, I used to call him and he always had an answer and a solution.

I'd be skeptical of just about anything that promises great results without hearing it from a lot of other people first.
As for zeolite, I can tell you that we don't need it to care for pigeons.

Bill


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## Lovebirds

I know that Colin Walker and Gordon Chalmers are vets. Hard to believe that as long as you've been around pigeons you haven't heard of either one or seen their books?

http://www.winningmagazine.nl/articels/webshop.asp?id=215

http://www.walshloft.com/medication/canker-dr-c.htm


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## Maggie-NC

Dr. Walker is a renowned veterinarian. I have heard of Dr. Chalmers but, I think, out of all of them, Dr. Walker is tops based on some of his writings.


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## Julien

Hi Bill,

I am surprise that you don't know those vets. They are recognized as being about the 5 best pigeons veterinarians in the wold!.

Here are more information about them:
recoDr. Colin Walker:
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/

Dr. Zsolt Talaber:
http://www.galambdoktor.hu/index.php?l=en

Dr. Gordon Chalmers:
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/index.cfm

Dr. Wim Peters, South Africa
http://gpe.co.za/Quotes.htm
http://www.winningmagazine.nl/articels/webshop.asp?id=111

Dr. Pascal Lanneau
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetbelg/index.cfm

Thanks again for your continuous answers.

Raymond Julien.


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## jbangelfish

*I said how I have learned to care for pigeons*

It did not come from books. It came from people who knew how to care for pigeons.

The fact that I don't know these guys doesn't mean much to me. There are alot of useless books out there that were written for the sole purpose of promoting a product or making money for the author or authors.

I'm not saying that this book is useless and it may have alot of valuable information in it. I have no idea. Touting the virtues of zeolite however makes me alittle skeptical.

Did the pigeon breeders of yesteryear have access to or even hear of zeolite? No, they did not. We have talked about the age of pigeons here before and one of the war hero pigeons lived to be over 30 years old. He must have been well cared for and I'm pretty sure that he never had zeolite anywhere near him. I have personally had pigeons reach over 20 years and have never nor would I ever have zeolite in my coop.

Do these guys have anything else that is useful to say? I hope so.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*I've never taken a pigeon to a vet*



Lovebirds said:


> I know that Colin Walker and Gordon Chalmers are vets. Hard to believe that as long as you've been around pigeons you haven't heard of either one or seen their books?
> 
> http://www.winningmagazine.nl/articels/webshop.asp?id=215
> 
> http://www.walshloft.com/medication/canker-dr-c.htm


I'm not saying that I never would but I never have.

My vet used to ask me how to take care of her birds. She was not an avian vet of course but she was a vet. If I had a sick cow, horse or dog, I'd ask her what to do or take the animal to her. I'm not trying to brag in any way. As I say, I do not have all the answers but I'm pretty good at finding them.

I haven't read alot of publications about birds or fish or anything else that I've raised, at least in recent years. In over 50 years of raising fish and birds, I have raised thousands of each of them, pigeons, gamebirds, fish whatever, literally thousands of each. I do not read books anymore on how to care for them. I needed to know a long time ago and I do know how to care for all of them.

Bill


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## Julien

Hi Bill and all,

Hi Bill and all pigeon breeders…
On the contrary to you bill, I read most pigeon books that have been written by very knowledgeable veterinarian or expert in pigeons. I also have Wendell Levy book as all serious breeders have, I have the great book call ''Champion Reveal'' by Victor Vansalen (By the way, I have all his books), I also read ALL articles from expert and as the great Sylvio Mattaccione wrote in one of his articles: read all you can, the more you know, the better it is, then make your own opinion and decision and take only what sound good for you. Then try it to evaluate. Have you ever read ''Rules for success in pigeon Breeding by Sylvio’’, and all those so many good articles?

By the way, I didn't tell much about me up to now, first, I am a French guy from Québec Canada. It's why my English is not always what it should be, sorry about that! I have been breeding mainly pigeons and small animals for 57 years now. I have been very active in racing homers getting at the top for many years. I have been the very first one to use the darkening system in North America. In the first two years with the system, I won all positions going up to 32 of them. My mentor has been Ad Schaerlaeckens. I have also kept many other pigeon breeds but now I keep modenas and a few more breeds. My aim is to breed 250 modenas a year with 28 pairs during 4 months what I have done the last 2 years. I love this bird for its colors and form. It is a hard variety to breed but this increase my pleasure in breeding and showing. I have written many articles on: ‘’What are the need of our modenas’’ The first two articles were on fertility. I now am the International Modena Club Vice President and our club has one of the best pigeon site in the world at: www.internationalmodenaclub.com. 
I am also a moderator in the IMC Discussion Group and own a French Discussion group on modenas for our great European friends and for the Quebecers that keep modenas and tak French.: http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/club_modene_quebec/

This is the main reason why I bought the book ‘’Vet’s Tips for Fanciers’’ to learn more and more… It is also why I have been very concern about Zeolite, Curly Kales, Aloe Vera, etc… If Natural products might help me, then our members in the world, will benefit of it. We also preach agains’t all antibiotics and talk a lot about Probiotic ans prebiotics. This is also why I have asked information in this discussion group.

Sorry if I talked so much but it seems to be important for me at this point… Sincerely,

Raymond Julien


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## Julien

*Zeolite*

Hi Bill,

You asked something as: '' What else is there in this book''

Here is all the articles written in it:

Title: Vets Tips for Fanciers

The book (Click onto the photos)A BRAND NEW INTERNATIONAL PIGEON BOOK 

from world renowned pigeon vets -

for every fanciers,

in the very popular 
Question and Answer format. 

300 pages, hardback, full color, with many excellent photos.
*
The authors of the book are well-know pigeon vets from around the world:
Gordon Chalmers, Canada
Wim Peters, South Africa
Colin Walker, Australia
Pascal Lanneau, Belgium
Zsolt Talaber, Hungary
Now only 49.95 USD order online
The world is not like it was ten years ago, and neither will it be the same in five years’ time. All fanciers see and experience that the conditions facing pigeon breeding are changing at a pace that is hard to follow:

Tips to races (Click onto the photos)- the nutritional value of feed is declining
- drinking water is richer in poisonous materials
- the air is becoming full of poisonous materials
- radiation pollution in the air is on the increase
- allergens in the environment are flourishing
- new viruses appear and epidemics are spreading
- antibiotics are being used indiscriminately
- global warming continues
- in certain places the weather is becoming extreme

Tips to breedingwhile in the meantime
- new medicines and new technologies are appearing
- academic knowledge is always broadening



Only those will be successful in pigeon breeding who

Interesting cases- are aware of these changes
- prepare for them
- adjust to them.
The intention of this book is to assist them in this.

*


Contents of book

Useful tricksLoss of health
Garlic and probiotics
Slow crop 
Throw of maize 
Table salt 
Feeding of a returning racer 
Embryonic death 
Problems during the breeding period
Antibiotics in pellets 
Causes of premature infertility
Egg retention 
Overuse vitamins and tonics
Garlic and alcohol
Streptococcosis in pigeons 
Pigeons, chickens, coccidia
No mosquitoes but still malaria
Different strains of Trichomonas gallinae
The difference between enteritis and hexamitiasis 
Circovirus and its influence on vaccination 
Watery droppings 
Poxvirus
Influence of PMV on breeding or racing
Nictating membrane (third eyelid) 
Pigeon breeders’ lung

Useful advises to loft managementRestoring health
Treat during the moulting period 
Bacterial culturing at home
Sending of dropping samples
Coccidiosis, canker, worms and performance 
Feeding of 100% barley 
Treatment of youngsters against canker
Treatment of racers against canker 
Side effects of metronidazole 
Use of metronidazole 
Differences between bacteria and viruses 
Differences between probiotics, prebiotics and antibiotics 
About trimethoprim
Doxycycline treatment
Gentamycin 
Spectinomycin in racing season 
Stiff race birds 
Immunostimulants
DMG or vitamin B15 
Change from one sex to the other

Tips to old but good individualsMaintaining health
Building of a new loft
Water for pigeons 
Zeolite 
Aloe vera
Organic acids - apple cider vinegar
Apple cider vinegar and lemon juice 
Prebiotics 
Honey or fructose
Green vegetables
Special role of protein in flight 
The best dope for your pigeons 
L-Carnitine
Avian influenza (bird flu) 
The good pigeon fancier
Some tips to breed champions
Preventive treatment with antibiotics
Vaccinate against poxvirus, PMV and paratyphoid
Vaccination in cold weather 
Annually vaccination against PMV 
Vaccination against paratyphoid
Vaccination against paratyphoid during the racing season

Tips against stresses, infectionsLittle but important questions 
Type of straw - tobacco stalks
Creatine 
Wheat germ oil 
Aqueous iodine
***** corn 
Safflower 
Effects of heat on pigeons
Tares 
Different types of maize
Mineral, oyster shell and tetracyclines
Hopper feeding 
Benefit of seaweed 
Rummaging in the soil 
Colour of the breastbone
Feeding high proportion of peanuts
Peanuts - for long distance 
Feeding of youngsters with protein mixture
Casting of the first primary 
Feeding of inferior grains during the winter months
The West Nile virus 
Paint fumes and ventilation
Oregano oil

Many of those articles catch my attention and it's why I wanted to learn more... and more... so it why I bought it.

The more we know, the more we.......LOL..

Thanks again Bill and all of you that wanted to give their opinion... Please keep on doing it..

Raymond Julien.


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## george simon

HI RAYMOND, First I would like to commend your desire to learn more this is as it should be. I went over the list on the content of the book. Many of those subjects are in other books but here it seems that they are in one book. Which I think is good and I just may add this book to those that I currently have. I would like to leave you with this LEARN ALL YOU CAN BUT DO NOT BE AFRAID TO QUESTION WHAT YOU READ. .GEORGE


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## Lovebirds

*Looks like a good book.*

http://www.pigeonbooks.com/index.php?r=13&c=12&l=en


Everyone that can should take the time to go through the above web site. Very interesting questions/answers there.


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## Julien

Thank you George and Renee and hello all pigeon fans,

I very much like the fast replies we get here.

When I have time and if there is an interest for it, I will post my 2 long articles about the fertility in our pigeons, mainly our modenas. I have received hundred of pages of information from specislists and veterinarians in the world before I wrote them. Many breeders have importantly increase the fertility in their pigeons after trying them. Most of the informations in those articles are known by most breeders but some details might also help! 

Then it would be great to have criticizum on them. 

Raymond Julien, Canada.


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## jbangelfish

*Julien, it is good to know all that we can*



Julien said:


> Thank you George and Renee and hello all pigeon fans,
> 
> I very much like the fast replies we get here.
> 
> When I have time and if there is an interest for it, I will post my 2 long articles about the fertility in our pigeons, mainly our modenas. I have received hundred of pages of information from specislists and veterinarians in the world before I wrote them. Many breeders have importantly increase the fertility in their pigeons after trying them. Most of the informations in those articles are known by most breeders but some details might also help!
> 
> Then it would be great to have criticizum on them.
> 
> Raymond Julien, Canada.


I hope I didn't offend you with anything that I said, I certainly did not intend to. You obviously have alot of pigeon breeding and keeping experience and you very likely know enough to take good care of them as well.

I went over the list and it does appear to be a very informative book and appears to cover about everything that a pigeon breeder should know.

Was there anything new to you besides zeolite? I said earlier that it might possibly benefit in some way but I also expressed my concerns with the use of it and we have both done quite well with pigeons for a very long time without the use of it.

Have you ever used Iodine (tamed) in your birds drinking water? I noticed it on the list and I used it many years ago myself. It keeps the water bacteria free and is supposed to increase fertility. I just wondered if it was used in your fertility research.

Bill


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## myrpalom

Julien said:


> Does any body have the two other vets E-mail address:
> 
> Dr. Wim Piters South Africa and
> Dr. Pascal Lanneau from Belgium.




Pascal Lanneau Dierenarts
Kerkstraat 21 8552 Moen Belgium
Tel: 056/649143 Fax: 056/774577
e-mail: [email protected]


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## Julien

*Zeolite and Fertilty articles*

Hi Bill,

No, of course not you didn’t at all offend me, on the contrary, I appreciate all what you write. I used lugol for the first time about 10 years ago. Before I used iodine but lugol is more complete and has an iodine base. Again my reference was from Mr. schaerlaeckens . In my articles, I have tried to get it the most completely possible I could and of course, I talk about the necessity of ¸iodine. 

About Zeolite, I wrote three times to Dr. Talaber up to now. Got only one answer and here it is:
Hi,

what is your problem?

Regards
Zsolt Talaber, DVM

Quite interesting for a book writer… I am sure he sold many books because of me and this the way he answer me!!! Please notice the kind of respect he has! 

More about it ……… it comes!

Raymond Julien. 
h


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## Julien

*Re Dr. Lanneau*

Thank you very much myrpalom....for your help, about Dr. Lanneau

Raymond Julien.


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## jbangelfish

*Thanks Raymond*



Julien said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> No, of course not you didn’t at all offend me, on the contrary, I appreciate all what you write. I used lugol for the first time about 10 years ago. Before I used iodine but lugol is more complete and has an iodine base. Again my reference was from Mr. schaerlaeckens . In my articles, I have tried to get it the most completely possible I could and of course, I talk about the necessity of ¸iodine.
> 
> About Zeolite, I wrote three times to Dr. Talaber up to now. Got only one answer and here it is:
> Hi,
> 
> what is your problem?
> 
> Regards
> Zsolt Talaber, DVM
> 
> Quite interesting for a book writer… I am sure he sold many books because of me and this the way he answer me!!! Please notice the kind of respect he has!
> 
> More about it ……… it comes!
> 
> Raymond Julien.
> h


I would prefer not to buy the book simply because of how you were treated when asking one of the authors a simple question.

I used to talk with and buy pigeons from Dr Williard Hollander and he was a very kind and humble man who wrote many books and told many others what to put in their books.

I also spoke with Joe Quinn who wrote the book that I have on genetics. He wrote them and basically made them himself. You ordered them from him personally and he was also very kind and humble and a student and very good friend of Dr Hollander.

There used to be a man here who went by the name of Turmani who probably knows as much about pigeons as anyone in the world today and he has written many books and magazine articles. I tried to find a book written by him and was unable to. He has written about the history of the Birmingham roller and the Whittingham, Pensom and Graham Fireball strains and is one of few who know the full story. There is much confusion among breeders of these pigeons and most of them think that they have separate breeds of pigeons but I'm convinced that they are all merely strains of Birminghams possibly with Tippler or other Highflier blood. I'd like to find him or at least his books. I will try to find his name and maybe you will know something about this. I think it was Spurling or something like that.

One of the last things he said here was that he was about to move to Scotland.

Bill


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