# Inheritance of Gimple



## MaryOfExeter

AKA - Archangel bronze. Dominant, recessive, etc?


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## dimerro

http://www.taubensell.de/genetiknichtgescherbf.htm

1. Gimpel pigeons Bronze
(Quinn's Kite Archangel)

Ka1	dominant	

Gimpel have a copper-colored base body plumage, including head, neck, wedge. Wing-coverts and tail are not included. In the dilution created by Pale gold from copper. Ka1 causes copper in the body, basic plumage, but usually not at the head

2. Gimpel pigeons bronze of the head region	

ka2	recessive	

Spread of the copper color on the head region


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## rudolph.est

Actually, Axel Sell in a more recent online article specifies that he does not think a ka2 gene exists (or is necessary). I'm in a bit of a hurry now, but will look for it a little later and post the link. EDIT: (I must have imagined it ... the most recent of Sell's posts indeed specify that a second recessive gene is needed to push the bronze over the head.)

I tend to stick with the idea that archangel bronze is a simple co-dominant. I have 2 hybrids (black bar cock x archangel hen), both are hens. The one is a spread archangel and looks a like what I would call a copper-collar (head is solid black - I think spread interferes somewhat with the copper expression).The other is a gold (not sure whether dilute pale) dun-wing, she shows perfect bronzing of the head, neck and breast. She even shows a golden cast all over her body, flights, tail and wing feathers. This leads me to believe that if a second gene is necessary (ie. ka2, it would have to be a dominant as-well, since F1 shows almost perfect copper coverage - at least when dilute is also involved).

I am currently mating an archangel hen to a dirty, sooty blue homer cock so I can try to figure out the inheritance for myself. I think that only dirty and smoky and gimple bronze is necessary to breed good coppers, now I just have to prove it!


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## rudolph.est

Update,

My homer cock x archangel hen youngsters are now just over 30 days old, and to my surprise, BOTH are peak crested!

Obviously my homer is not so pure after all, since I have never seen crested homers in South Africa. I had another surprise though. While the one squab (3508) shows the expected bronzing of the neck / breast and even bronze edging on the head - which I assume will moult out. The other (3509) is just dark with a slight bronze edging all over, this youngster is an extreme dirty, the feet are jet black. 3508 is dirty too with dark greyish feet, but not nearly as dark as the other. The parents are sitting on their second round now, maybe I'll get more surprises.

Next I will need a dilute cock to do the same test with, to see why I got proper gold coverage on the F1 before, but not this time, it might be that the dilute helps the gold to extend to the head and rump. Currently I only have an indigo cock split for dilute, and I don't think I want to add indigo to this bronze mess quite yet.


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## redleg23

My experience with my own birds indicates a co-dominance like Rudolph stated. My Gimpels are all split for frill stencil also, some have spot tails. I'm currently waiting for the youngsters from one of my late-hatch color matings, to feather out. I have a pair of Pales, both checks carrying barless. I'm hoping at least one will turn out Pale barless, I currently only have one bird that is Pale barless / spot tail. Theres a pic of her on my website. Also, I wanted to mention Pale is sex-linked when mating Pale - non pale.


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## MaryOfExeter

redleg23 said:


> My experience with my own birds indicates a co-dominance like Rudolph stated. My Gimpels are all split for frill stencil also, some have spot tails. I'm currently waiting for the youngsters from one of my late-hatch color matings, to feather out. I have a pair of Pales, both checks carrying barless. I'm hoping at least one will turn out Pale barless, I currently only have one bird that is Pale barless / spot tail. Theres a pic of her on my website. Also, I wanted to mention Pale is sex-linked when mating Pale - non pale.


I definitely think you should help a sister out  LOLOL


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## MaryOfExeter

Does anyone have reference pictures comparing a dilute gimple to a pale gimple?


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> Does anyone have reference pictures comparing a dilute gimple to a pale gimple?


I don't think there is a very big difference between gold (pale) and gold (dilute). The previous F1s I commented on before were from a bronze blackwing hen x black barb. One of these F1s is a gold (I assume she has to be dilute, since the intense copper hen could not contribute pale to the mix). Her color is exactly similar to the [pale] gold archangels I have seen on show.

I'll lake a picture of her this weekend and post it for comparison.


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## Henk69

You can't get this with dilute instead of pale:









http://vinkduiven.sierduif.nl/


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## redleg23

I only have pales no dilutes.An easy way to determine the Pale gene, Pales are short downed in the nest. Honestly, I've never given much thought to a dilute gimpel, definitely interesting.


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## MaryOfExeter

rudolph.est said:


> I don't think there is a very big difference between gold (pale) and gold (dilute). The previous F1s I commented on before were from a bronze blackwing hen x black barb. One of these F1s is a gold (I assume she has to be dilute, since the intense copper hen could not contribute pale to the mix). Her color is exactly similar to the [pale] gold archangels I have seen on show.
> 
> I'll lake a picture of her this weekend and post it for comparison.


From what I have seen, a lot of Archangels or Gimple colored pigeons look more on the dilute side rather than pale, but then again, I don't know what a pale blue bar looks like in comparison to a silver. It's just some pale archangels I've seen, their flights are not effected. Regular dark flights on blues and black on blacks. But then some of them have light colored flights like silvers and duns???

Henk, dilute does effect bronze. It makes it a light color. I read somewhere that dilute makes it lighter than pale. That can be seen in recessive red. There is recessive red, "gold" (pale RR), then recessive yellow. Dilute bronze can be very pretty and creates "sulphur". Note the lovely color dilute turns modena bronze into
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/dilutepale.html
If dilute gimples look anything like that, I think it would be beautiful!

This, to me, is what I would assume a dilute archangel would look like.








If only it wasn't a whiteflight. The shields are kind of dark but it could be dirty.

Compared to this pale









Perhaps it's just the lighting on the cameras that make the shade different.


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## MaryOfExeter

redleg23 said:


> I only have pales no dilutes.An easy way to determine the Pale gene, Pales are short downed in the nest. Honestly, I've never given much thought to a dilute gimpel, definitely interesting.


Just looking through your birds, all of your pale birds I would have assumed were dilutes just based on their flight color, had I not known they were pale project birds. Compare to this silver dragoon http://martinlofts.com/MyImages/Dragoon silver.jpg



http://www.angelfire.com/bc/Bouvreuil/StandardArchangelAACc.html
Looking at this, the phases are intense, pale, and dilute. I had no clue dilute was actually in archangels. I was just guessing. Now I know they are. The modifiers at the bottom of the page...anyone ever seen those added in??? Ice, almond, qualmond, grizzle? What?


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> From what I have seen, a lot of Archangels or Gimple colored pigeons look more on the dilute side rather than pale, but then again, I don't know what a pale blue bar looks like in comparison to a silver. It's just some pale archangels I've seen, their flights are not effected. Regular dark flights on blues and black on blacks. But then some of them have light colored flights like silvers and duns???
> 
> Henk, dilute does effect bronze. It makes it a light color. I read somewhere that dilute makes it lighter than pale. That can be seen in recessive red. There is recessive red, "gold" (pale RR), then recessive yellow. Dilute bronze can be very pretty and creates "sulphur". Note the lovely color dilute turns modena bronze into
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/dilutepale.html
> If dilute gimples look anything like that, I think it would be beautiful!
> 
> This, to me, is what I would assume a dilute archangel would look like.
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> If only it wasn't a whiteflight. The shields are kind of dark but it could be dirty.
> 
> Compared to this pale
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> Perhaps it's just the lighting on the cameras that make the shade different.


I think it is probably a trick of lighting as you said. You are right about the fact that pale and dilute do affect the flights differently. The 'dilute' crossbreed I have definitely shows the lighter flights. Her bronze also affects her shield to become somewhat golden grey / silver. I really have to upload a picture.

You are probably right about the dirty though, I know that all copper archangels are dirty, that is the only way for the blue tail to become so dark as to seem to be black (you have to look REALLY closely to see the tail bar at all), maybe the gold gimpels are dirty too.


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> Just looking through your birds, all of your pale birds I would have assumed were dilutes just based on their flight color, had I not known they were pale project birds. Compare to this silver dragoon http://martinlofts.com/MyImages/Dragoon silver.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/bc/Bouvreuil/StandardArchangelAACc.html
> Looking at this, the phases are intense, pale, and dilute. I had no clue dilute was actually in archangels. I was just guessing. Now I know they are. The modifiers at the bottom of the page...anyone ever seen those added in??? Ice, almond, qualmond, grizzle? What?


I have not seen archangels in these colors, but this aviculture-europe article on ocher (or copper) breasted pigeons do show some interesting ideas of what very light ground color will do on bronze. I assume the ocher breast markings in all / many of these breeds are caused by Ka1.

Here are pictures of barless and barred nuremberg larks. Note how light the ground color has become, probably due to Ice . Note the blue/black tail bar - the barless bird is definitely blue based and not ash-red, though it is called mealy from the German '_mehllicht_' meaning light as flour (meal)).

















I also have recently been given 2 almond crossbreed cocks. I will be mating them to an archangel hen to see what Ka1 and St look like together, they must be very interesting, the standard calls them magnani wings?! Modena much? ;-)

As to the other modifiers, I cannot even begin to imagine. Though the site on which you found the standard published does have interesting birds pictured: opal, stencil, self bronze (recessive red actually), etc.


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## mrottler

I think Henk just meant it has to be pale over dilute (in archangels) otherwise the black wing shield wouldn't be black (with dilute) it would be dun.


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## MaryOfExeter

mrottler said:


> I think Henk just meant it has to be pale over dilute (in archangels) otherwise the black wing shield wouldn't be black (with dilute) it would be dun.


That is correct. Which is why I was wondering if dilute was in archangels, because quite a few "blacks" and "blues" look more like duns and silvers based on the flight color.


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## rudolph.est

mrottler said:


> I think Henk just meant it has to be pale over dilute (in archangels) otherwise the black wing shield wouldn't be black (with dilute) it would be dun.


I totally agree with Henk, though maybe I did not state it clearly. The shield of my dilute cross is definitely much lighter than it should be, and I doubt whether smoky, sooty or any amount of dirty would be able to darken the shield sufficiently to produce the black seen in gold archangels.

Here is a picture of my F1 dilute (she is a barb archangel cross)









And her full sister (spread + archangel bronze)









Please excuse the amateur photos, I'm still learning how to photograph pigeons. Its really not easy!

This was a very interesting cross, since there were many different genes involved, Darwin would have been confused to see so little reversion to wilt type. Since most the mutants here are dominant or sex linked.

In the F1s notice:
Short beak (definitely dominant - as research has shown)
Flat wide scull (suspected dominant - barb)
Light beaks with darker tips (smoky and dirty archangel and smoky barb)
Red eye cere (suspected dominant - barb)
Wide eye cere (suspected incomplete dominant - barb)
Iridescence, though not very visible here, but the black bird especially shows a lot of sheen on the back and shoulders (incomplete dominant - archangel)


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## chinbunny

Here are some pictures of my pales and dilutes. What i don't get about the standard, and it does confuse me, is they tell you what the birds will produce when breeding the cocks to hens. But it doesn't say what you get when you do is vice versa. im still trying to figure out what sex these are. The one ale young bird appears to be molting into a copper blue wing instead of pale like his brother. The blues are out of a breeding of intense copper blue wing cock to a plae gold blue wing hen. Correct me if i am wrong, im not looking at the standard now. Doesn't it say when a intense male is mated to a dilute female, the offspring will be pales and dilutes? Is there such thing as pale copper, without it turning gold? 

this a pale gold blue wing cock. 










this is what i am assuming will be a pale. its a young bird. 










this i am assuming will molt into dilute. the shade of copper on the breast is lighter, then the previous young bird. The blue is much lighter. Both birds are siblings, and out of the pair i mentioned above. 










This one is a little tricky. These two came from the pale cockbird pictured above, bred to a copper blackwing hen(which I believe is intense?). The color on these is a shade darker then what the picture shows. In fact the check is almost black. So what sex would these be? Or would I have to wait and see after they molt?


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## chinbunny




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## chinbunny

This is what i would assume will be a dilute blue. not the bird double pictured above.


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## MaryOfExeter

chinbunny said:


> This is what i would assume will be a dilute blue. not the bird double pictured above.


Could you get a better picture of this one showing the full body?


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## chinbunny

ill try again. It wouldn't sit still for me. Its a sibling to the blue above. its a shade lighter though. Any idea what the two coppers would be since they are out of the dilute to intense breeding?


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## chinbunny

Here is a better picture of it. The camera got it a shade darker then what it normally is. 










There is one with the older brother.


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## MaryOfExeter

Ah. Looks like a barless indigo. It doesn't have a tail bar does it? That would explain the light color of the flight without effecting the bronze.


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## chinbunny

This is the one you thought was a dilute blue. 










and here are all five babies. its the copper check and blackwing id like to know the sex on. Those came from the intense hen, and dilute cock. Im thinking the copper black one will be a boy because its so dark. the copper blackwing i am not sure on. iding the sex on the others would be great too.


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## chinbunny

No it doesn't have a tailbar. So is it a dilute, or a pale? It hasn't molted yet either.


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## chinbunny

& the copper blackwing does have blue barred tail feathers. so whatever it goes will be a t.


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## chinbunny

& neither copper blacks have gone through their first molt either.


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## MaryOfExeter

chinbunny said:


> No it doesn't have a tailbar. So is it a dilute, or a pale? It hasn't molted yet either.


I don't think it's dilute or pale. The bronze is too dark. But this does mean it is an indigo. Do you have a picture of the other parent?


Now that I look at that one bird again, I don't know that it's a dilute anymore. Pale perhaps? The flights are a little light but not light enough for silver....I think. I'm confused  That bright yellow eye is typical for dilute blues though. Hmmm...


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## chinbunny

These are the parents of the blues. this is the cockbird. His copper is darker then what the picture shows. And the blue is also a lot darker too.


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## chinbunny

The hen is the one inside the nest. you guys told me she was a dilute. She does have bars on her wings, and tail feathers. but the color is light blue.


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## chinbunny

Same hen again. Better picture.


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## chinbunny

& this the same bird in the first picture above, also out of the pair of copper and gold blues. IRL his chest is dark, kind of copperish gold. like one of the birds you guys showed a picture of that was a pale. This is also the father of the copper blacks.


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## chinbunny

Ok now I am confused, are any of my pairs sex linked or what?  remember I am relying on what you guys have been telling me.


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## chinbunny

MaryOfExeter said:


> I don't think it's dilute or pale. The bronze is too dark. But this does mean it is an indigo. Do you have a picture of the other parent?
> 
> 
> Now that I look at that one bird again, I don't know that it's a dilute anymore. Pale perhaps? The flights are a little light but not light enough for silver....I think. I'm confused  That bright yellow eye is typical for dilute blues though. Hmmm...


the camera has him darker then what he is IRL. IRL his wing feathers on the back of them are almost white,which is why I asked if he may be an ice instead.


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## MaryOfExeter

Sex-linked pairs would be:
-Dilute cockbird x intense hen
- Pale cockbird x intense hen

What you have going on isn't a sex-linked pair as the hen is pale and the cockbird is intense. The cockbird is an andalusian, which explains the indigo barless and the blackwing.


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## chinbunny

The blackwings are their grandchildren. I have two breeding pairs of archangels. the pair of blues, which are the mom and dad/grandparents to everyone but the silvery colored guy. And the pale cock to copper black wing hen pair. The black winged babies are out of those, and are the grandchildren of the pair of blues. 

So is the bird in the carrier(the father of the black wings) a pale? And are his babies(the check and the black wing) sex linked then since their momma is a copper? Can you tell me what they are, or do I have to wait till after they molt? 

same reason i was confused on the two blues bred together. good to know the babies aren't sex linked out of those. That would explain why the one is marked more like its dad(on the head) then the other is. Guess will have to wait a little longer to see what they are.


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## chinbunny

just read on the standard that indigo is useful to use on toy stencil patterns. wnder what i would get if i bred one of them to the one that carries toy stencil?


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## chinbunny

also further reading the standard says my second blue cockbird (father of the black babies) is a smokey.Which explains the mask he had as a baby. but he's still a pale, right. If not, what is he, besides smokey? 

Good god pigeon standards and genetics are worse then rabbits.  Too many colors to keep track of!


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## chinbunny

Also found this, since the dilute/silvery guy was out of a father/daughter breeding (the daughter. who was a blue check stencil wing) bred back to the toy stencil cock bird i had. & this baby is showing modena bronze in those bars of his. 

One dose of toy-stencil usually produces a modena-bronze wing, so it must come from both parents (two doses) to express itself. When a modena-bronze wing is mated to a stencil wing,half of the offspring are expected to be bronze wings and half stencil wings. 

His/her sibling that flew off had a lot of bronze showing in the check markings on it.


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