# why cant homers be housed like rollers?



## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

im wondering if your let the birds out daily for exercise and worm and treat infections keeping everyone healthy in the setup why cant these birds be housed in a larger styled kit like the roller guys/girls do. i used to live in the city and i always found these birds to be highly adaptable, but i always see these elaborate lofts for these homing birds. this is an example i found recently of something that i would find acceptable to what im saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAb0l9KIYu4 

and 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZ_W1-Wqzc&feature=related

most likely he has separate breeding kits or so somewhere else. whats the need for the large living areas for the homers? can someone school me on this. also will the lack of breeding nests in the setup of the youtube video i have shown effect the birds want to home back to the house? thats the only thought of why i would think of the large elaborate setup for these birds would be needed to incorporate the nesting areas, But i dont know. someone let me know. thanks to let everyone know i dont have any birds yet, as im wanting to absorb the knowledge of things first.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You can have a small loft or a kit box type If you want. remember the smaller the loft the less birds you should have in it.. The pigeon do not mind what the loft looks like .the people do. Many people can keep over 100 birds. You figure Breeders OFTEN they are prisoners or at least at first. Then old cocks old hens. young birds as young cocks and young hens. Wheres people want to seperate the sexes. And others do not. Any time you have mature birds together they will pair and try to nest. So if you want a small loft then build it And get the birds you want Go from there. The links you provided were white homers/race birds.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the homer is a bird that does well with 2ft per bird for space, the more space the better IMO... the kits are temporary quarters for developing a better roll for rollers, not sure how that works but most put them in a regular loft for some months to breed. The homer does a different job so the kitbox is not needed and I would think sort of cruel to house birds in one all the time.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You can but I wouldn't. My first loft was made out of scrap wood nailed together and the birds were just fine. As long as you keep your birds happy and healthy, it doesn't matter what it looks like. I don't like kit boxes because the light is so limited. The only time I see rollers in them is for competitions.


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## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

well yeah but cruel would be somewhat subjective i would think. i would think cruel would be owning and not giving effort to feed and worm and extreme overcrowding. i know those white birds were not rollers, but the set up he had them in was what the roller guys would put one in except it is open to allow more moving around for the birds. if i owned those white homers in the youtube clip, i would put an aviary attached surrounding the back of the setup he has. i would think that an aviary attached to this would allow better exercise and mimic a open loft environment. the reason i ask is i recently built a roller kit 6ft wide 3.5 deep and 4ft tall. i am in between with the decision of getting rollers or homers, but the dilemma is that i built the kit already for the rollers. 

most likely i will get the rollers and build a loft suitable to put homers in in the future. i thought it would be good to ask though. i was thinking of at the most fitting 6-10 homers in there with an open aviary to go out in, but of course i think it would be better to start off on the right path and do things right. looks like i go the roller route for now. just seeing thanks everyone


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

If they are out of the loft to fly and the loft is kept clean then I think "cruel" would be going a bit far.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well it's nice for them to have room to move around in. If all they have is a perch to sit on when they're in the loft, and no room to move around, then it is kinda cruel. To just sit in one spot all day.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

well what ever word one wants to use... cruel, bad.. not good..confining.. or just plain ickey..lol.... that is how I percieve it.. no one else has to by any means..


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here are some small lofts. Might give you some ideas 
http://www.redroselofts.com/starter_loft.htm
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f38/kalkbls-modified-red-rose-loft-8x6-a-44788.html
http://www.pigeon-lung.co.uk/articlefiles/art_keithmott.html


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

There are people who has had health problem Go fom the loft breeding to small pens rabbit size So they could continue breeding and keeping there birds. And soime people do it To not have to breath very much of the loft air. As long as the birds are not over crowded. And happy It should be fine. IF the birds do not like the loft I am sure when they are released they would do a fly away or just refuse to trap. Just like many lofts have no aivery or just a small aivery No largeg one at all. Like i said lofts are for PEOPLE the birds as long as they feel safe and are taken care of could care less. Just remember NOT to over crowd Look how small a parrot cage is and how long a parrot lives.


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## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

im going to use the set-up for the rollers as i had set out to do originally. i think the loft set-up would be alot better to maybe bond with the birds if your racing them or what not. im going to do things right with this one. i think i will get my feet wet with the rollers and set off from there. Thanks everyone the idea of homers sound very interesting to me and i will most likely build a decent loft for them in the future big enough to expand on. thanks for getting me on the right path with the decision of this.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> There are people who has had health problem Go fom the loft breeding to small pens rabbit size So they could continue breeding and keeping there birds. And soime people do it To not have to breath very much of the loft air. As long as the birds are not over crowded. And happy It should be fine. IF the birds do not like the loft I am sure when they are released they would do a fly away or just refuse to trap. Just like many lofts have no aivery or just a small aivery No largeg one at all. Like i said lofts are for PEOPLE the birds as long as they feel safe and are taken care of could care less. Just remember NOT to over crowd* Look how small a parrot cage is and how long a parrot lives.*


*
*

Yes...............sad isn't it?


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

To me, that just looks like an aviary that should have a 12' X 16' loft attached to it.

Jim


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Well it's nice for them to have room to move around in. If all they have is a perch to sit on when they're in the loft, and no room to move around, then it is kinda cruel. To just sit in one spot all day.


I just think of the wild rock dove, They sit on one spot on the cliffs for a lot of the day, Then they travel to the fields, Peck around and fly back and sit on their spot on the cliff again, Aslong as the area for the pigeon is clean and they get fresh air and excercise I do not see how its cruel. I'ts simulating their wild conditions in a way.

It's not how my pigeons live nor how I would choose to keep them but I am just saying that it is not cruel as its not to dis-similar to how pigeons live in the wild.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I just think of the wild rock dove, They sit on one spot on the cliffs for a lot of the day, Then they travel to the fields, Peck around and fly back and sit on their spot on the cliff again, Aslong as the area for the pigeon is clean and they get fresh air and excercise I do not see how its cruel. I'ts simulating their wild conditions in a way.
> 
> It's not how my pigeons live nor how I would choose to keep them but I am just saying that it is not cruel as its not to dis-similar to how pigeons live in the wild.


I understand what you are saying, but at least the wild rock doves do have a choice, and lots of times fly to different areas, even electric wires, where they will perch for periods of time. They spend a good part of their day just looking for food. They move around and do different things, like searching for food, collecting nesting materials, bathing, etc. And they have mates to interact with. I mean, come on. Keeping anything that is alive and has a brain, where it can't do anything but sit isn't a natural way to live. How awful that must be to just sit, and wait to be let out, as that is the only time you can exercise or move around. Pigeons are smart birds, how bored they must be sitting all day with nothing to do. 

We have a handicapped bird who lives inside with us, and when we are home, Scooter is usually out of his cage. If we don't let him out, he carries on something awful, til we release him. If we go to other rooms, he follows us. When he is out, he is normally on his shelf in the living room near the window, but the difference is that he does have the choice to sit there or fly around, or go down on the floor and investigate. I just think that taking any animal and stripping it of any choices is cruel. They should be kept in a way that they can have as many choices as it is possible for us to give them. I think the difference is that many look at it from the keepers point of view, and some look at it from the birds point of view. But if we are talking about them being happy, then I think you really have to look at it from their point of view.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but at least the wild rock doves do have a choice, and lots of times fly to different areas, even electric wires, where they will perch for periods of time. They spend a good part of their day just looking for food. They move around and do different things, like searching for food, collecting nesting materials, bathing, etc. And they have mates to interact with. I mean, come on. Keeping anything that is alive and has a brain, where it can't do anything but sit isn't a natural way to live. How awful that must be to just sit, and wait to be let out, as that is the only time you can exercise or move around. Pigeons are smart birds, how bored they must be sitting all day with nothing to do.
> 
> We have a handicapped bird who lives inside with us, and when we are home, Scooter is usually out of his cage. If we don't let him out, he carries on something awful, til we release him. If we go to other rooms, he follows us. When he is out, he is normally on his shelf in the living room near the window, but the difference is that he does have the choice to sit there or fly around, or go down on the floor and investigate. I just think that taking any animal and stripping it of any choices is cruel. They should be kept in a way that they can have as many choices as it is possible for us to give them. I think the difference is that many look at it from the keepers point of view, and some look at it from the birds point of view. But if we are talking about them being happy, then I think you really have to look at it from their point of view.


Well then every loft in the world would be crual looking at this idea. And as the indoor pigeon that would be cruel never let outside to see the sky smell the fresh air sit in the sun. Any person who keeps any creature has changed what the creature would do. But also proof does show They live longer have better health. ect they to become to depend on man. And even man Look how he has changed his world. Closed up away from nature Having to work to survive. Live the stress of living in todays world. Was man meant to be this way Or was it that a few made the rest change to living trhis way. Because what man did was CHANGE or I will kill you To many people. So we go on and hope what we do is some how right. and we live and enjoy our birds as best we think is right for them and us.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> Well then every loft in the world would be crual looking at this idea. And as the indoor pigeon that would be cruel never let outside to see the sky smell the fresh air sit in the sun. Any person who keeps any creature has changed what the creature would do. But also proof does show They live longer have better health. ect they to become to depend on man. And even man Look how he has changed his world. Closed up away from nature Having to work to survive. Live the stress of living in todays world. Was man meant to be this way Or was it that a few made the rest change to living trhis way. Because what man did was CHANGE or I will kill you To many people. So we go on and hope what we do is some how right. and we live and enjoy our birds as best we think is right for them and us.



Many do provide room for their birds to move around and live in their lofts, so I don't understand how you could say that every loft would be cruel looking. That just isn't true. 

And as far as an indoor pigeon, never getting outside to smell the fresh air or feel the sunshine................well if that were the case, than I would have to agree. My house bird does get outside to enjoy the fresh air and sunshine, and watch all the birds and animals that come to our yard. He loves it outside.

Just having a longer life is not everything. Sometimes the quality of life is more important. If ones owns any animal, then that person should give to it all it needs to live a happy life, and that would require being able to do more than to sit in one spot for most of it's life. Any animal needs to be able to move around and have some sort of enrichment in its day. More thought should be given to things other than clean feed and water and being kept out of the elements. Animals do have needs other than that. The problem is that too many think of them as inanimate, with no mind at all.

As far as what the plight of humans has come to, well, I think each of us has the right to make that decision for himself. We can choose what we do for work. Many work outside, if that be their choice. Many work for themselves. Others have 8 hour a day jobs. But we choose what we do, and if someone is unhappy with what they do, then they also have the right to choose something else. We do have choices, so should animals.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

It all comes down to good animal husbandtry...( Careful management) . keeping living things in a box like a kitbox for a long amount of time is not.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but at least the wild rock doves do have a choice, and lots of times fly to different areas, even electric wires, where they will perch for periods of time. They spend a good part of their day just looking for food. They move around and do different things, like searching for food, collecting nesting materials, bathing, etc. And they have mates to interact with. I mean, come on. Keeping anything that is alive and has a brain, where it can't do anything but sit isn't a natural way to live. How awful that must be to just sit, and wait to be let out, as that is the only time you can exercise or move around. Pigeons are smart birds, how bored they must be sitting all day with nothing to do.
> 
> We have a handicapped bird who lives inside with us, and when we are home, Scooter is usually out of his cage. If we don't let him out, he carries on something awful, til we release him. If we go to other rooms, he follows us. When he is out, he is normally on his shelf in the living room near the window, but the difference is that he does have the choice to sit there or fly around, or go down on the floor and investigate. I just think that taking any animal and stripping it of any choices is cruel. They should be kept in a way that they can have as many choices as it is possible for us to give them. I think the difference is that many look at it from the keepers point of view, and some look at it from the birds point of view. But if we are talking about them being happy, then I think you really have to look at it from their point of view.


Reread your post . Anf then think As MORE loft kept pigeon are never released to fly. As they are show type so they are kept in 24 7 365 there whole life. And are content. Some breeds are never given a perch As they do not fly much at all. remember this person is wanting pigeons and wants to start with this smaller pen/loft. As long as he does not over crowd then He needs support rather then negitive advise From people When I and many others started pigeons long ago My first pens /lofts were small not as well built . BUT I stayed with it as others did And built more lofts Bigger lofts better lofts built more loft agin. But I as others Started with the want of having pigeons And that want turned into a life time hobby. You ave 1 bird Do you plan to get more do you ever plan to race to show to compete. to visit others that have pigeons. Or do you just plan to keep the one. You see there are depths of the hobby that sarts with 1 or a few pigeons and then explodes to a larger idea.


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## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

if i do get homers i plan on not having anymore than 6-10 at the most in there before i expand into something proper. i will most likely start out with just a pair not being anxious to explode the population in there. i think that i would put maybe 4 nest boxes in there, but remove the eggs and replace with dummies to limit the population when its at its peak. would they want to leave if i keep doing this? or they just dont know? i would like to get into racing them and there is a club in my county. i just have to get in contact with them when the time is right. i will attach an aviary to the back of it surrounding the whole thing to let them come out as im sure it might be a little cramped in there. if people have started out in this manner then it makes me feel a bit better to do it this way and build gradually within time on the loft and birds. i myself try not to confuse our human emotions with animals, but sometimes it may be hard. i feel animals have 3 goals in life eat, breed and do it all again lol and they just look happy to see us because they have associated us already with food.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

newbie/bulldoger said:


> if i do get homers i plan on not having anymore than 6-10 at the most in there before i expand into something proper. i will most likely start out with just a pair not being anxious to explode the population in there. i think that i would put maybe 4 nest boxes in there, but remove the eggs and replace with dummies to limit the population when its at its peak. would they want to leave if i keep doing this? or they just dont know? i would like to get into racing them and there is a club in my county. i just have to get in contact with them when the time is right. i will attach an aviary to the back of it surrounding the whole thing to let them come out as im sure it might be a little cramped in there. if people have started out in this manner then it makes me feel a bit better to do it this way and build gradually within time on the loft and birds. i myself try not to confuse our human emotions with animals, but sometimes it may be hard. *i feel animals have 3 goals in life eat, breed and do it all again lol and they just look happy to see us because they have associated us already with food.*


You may want to re-think that thought..

http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_56&products_id=134


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> Reread your post . Anf then think As MORE loft kept pigeon are never released to fly. As they are show type so they are kept in 24 7 365 there whole life. And are content. Some breeds are never given a perch As they do not fly much at all. remember this person is wanting pigeons and wants to start with this smaller pen/loft. As long as he does not over crowd then He needs support rather then negitive advise From people When I and many others started pigeons long ago My first pens /lofts were small not as well built . BUT I stayed with it as others did And built more lofts Bigger lofts better lofts built more loft agin. But I as others Started with the want of having pigeons And that want turned into a life time hobby. You ave 1 bird Do you plan to get more do you ever plan to race to show to compete. to visit others that have pigeons. Or do you just plan to keep the one. You see there are depths of the hobby that sarts with 1 or a few pigeons and then explodes to a larger idea.



He asked the question, and he got honest answers. That isn't being negative. If a person just wants everyone to agree with them and tell them that everything is fine, then don't ask for opinions. And btw, I have 31 birds in my loft. Scooter is the one bird in the house.


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## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

Charis said:


> You may want to re-think that thought..
> 
> http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_56&products_id=134


can you please explain on this. im just personally very anti peta myself as i find there views a little bizarre. im sure you know that they are against any pigeon keeping aswell and would do away with it if they could. i just think its dangerous to involve human emotions with certain things. let me know. its why im here should i not get any homers and stick with the Birmingham rollers as the box is already designed for it. your opinion is appreciated. i take constructive criticism very well and if all i want is to start off in the right path for the birds.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

newbie/bulldoger said:


> can you please explain on this. im just personally very anti peta myself as i find there views a little bizarre. im sure you know that they are against any pigeon keeping aswell and would do away with it if they could. i just think its dangerous to involve human emotions with certain things. let me know. its why im here should i not get any homers and stick with the Birmingham rollers as the box is already designed for it. your opinion is appreciated. i take constructive criticism very well and if all i want is to start off in the right path for the birds.


I'm very sorry. I was posting medication links in another thread and posted the incorrect link for you. *The link I will re-post has not a darn thing to do with PETA nor doing away with keeping pigeons.*
I have had pigeons most of life. They are very smart creatures. The males, for example, love to admire themselves in the mirror. The recognize one human from another, are capable of riding the subway to the same destination each day and taking it back at night to where the flock. I could go on and on. It seems very sad that such intelligent creatures should be placed in a dark kit.
Rather than me go on and on, I'm going to get the correct link that I i tended to post.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/s...r-math-as-well-as-monkeys-study-suggests.html


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHYyfDdSUg


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHYyfDdSUg


I've always loved that video.


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## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

very interesting stuff didnt mean to ramble about Peta lol


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

newbie/bulldoger said:


> if i do get homers i plan on not having anymore than 6-10 at the most in there before i expand into something proper. i will most likely start out with just a pair not being anxious to explode the population in there. i think that i would put maybe 4 nest boxes in there, but remove the eggs and replace with dummies to limit the population when its at its peak. would they want to leave if i keep doing this? or they just dont know? i would like to get into racing them and there is a club in my county. i just have to get in contact with them when the time is right. i will attach an aviary to the back of it surrounding the whole thing to let them come out as im sure it might be a little cramped in there. if people have started out in this manner then it makes me feel a bit better to do it this way and build gradually within time on the loft and birds. i myself try not to confuse our human emotions with animals, but sometimes it may be hard. i feel animals have 3 goals in life eat, breed and do it all again lol and they just look happy to see us because they have associated us already with food.


Sounds like a good plan. But I would think of a divider For your hens to rest. That is much better then using dummy eggs. As some people do keep there birds together year around. BUT they are not thinking on there pigeons health. A hen gets stressed from laying. Then sitting dummy eggs PAST 10 days both hen and cock starts crop milk production. This to leads to health problems if they can not feed young. So during off breeding you could have a divider . Your birds would THANK you for that rest.


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## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

re lee said:


> Sounds like a good plan. But I would think of a divider For your hens to rest. That is much better then using dummy eggs. As some people do keep there birds together year around. BUT they are not thinking on there pigeons health. A hen gets stressed from laying. Then sitting dummy eggs PAST 10 days both hen and cock starts crop milk production. This to leads to health problems if they can not feed young. So during off breeding you could have a divider . Your birds would THANK you for that rest.


that was very insightful. that would be alot better than keeping them together, i didnt think at all about the milk production that would occur. any books non collector editions as those can be pricey that you think i should get specifically on homing birds and there needs w/medicines. i have seen some on amazon but not too sure which to get. i think this coming week i will make it wider and add that section for the hens. thanks you made me fell a bit better in getting some homers.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> Sounds like a good plan. But I would think of a divider For your hens to rest. That is much better then using dummy eggs. As some people do keep there birds together year around. BUT they are not thinking on there pigeons health. A hen gets stressed from laying. Then sitting dummy eggs PAST 10 days both hen and cock starts crop milk production. This to leads to health problems if they can not feed young. So during off breeding you could have a divider . Your birds would THANK you for that rest.


All I can go by is what I've read but it said that laying was not stressful on the birds but that milk production was because of the hormone changes. Also after the 10 days and the bird's body gets "tweaked" from producing the milk it then has to change again because there are no young to feed. This in of itself can cause a health problem.

So my take on what I read was that it's OK for the hen to lay but don't let her sit on the eggs, real or fake, for more than 10 days.


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## newbie/bulldoger (Dec 9, 2011)

newbie/bulldoger said:


> that was very insightful. that would be alot better than keeping them together, i didnt think at all about the milk production that would occur. any books non collector editions as those can be pricey that you think i should get specifically on homing birds and there needs w/medicines. i have seen some on amazon but not too sure which to get. i think this coming week i will make it wider and add that section for the hens. thanks you made me fell a bit better in getting some homers.




on the books i did a search already and seen some good talked about books that i may purchase in the next couple of days. 



thanks everyone for your helpful opinions.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> All I can go by is what I've read but it said that laying was not stressful on the birds but that milk production was because of the hormone changes. Also after the 10 days and the bird's body gets "tweaked" from producing the milk it then has to change again because there are no young to feed. This in of itself can cause a health problem.
> 
> So my take on what I read was that it's OK for the hen to lay but don't let her sit on the eggs, real or fake, for more than 10 days.


Not in my thoughts. A hen laying more is stressed more. And when rested a hen will not lay or lay very little. Plus regain her balance from the rest. Just the cock bird driving the hen to nest stresses the hen. Seperated the pairs And they birds rest stay healthy And 100 percent control on breeding Is a fool proofmethod. And good birds remain useful more years. A hen only has so many eggs Anything bred back to back 365 gets weak then sick.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> Not in my thoughts. A hen laying more is stressed more. And when rested a hen will not lay or lay very little. Plus regain her balance from the rest. Just the cock bird driving the hen to nest stresses the hen. Seperated the pairs And they birds rest stay healthy And 100 percent control on breeding Is a fool proofmethod. And good birds remain useful more years. A hen only has so many eggs Anything bred back to back 365 gets weak then sick.


According to Wendell Levi my remembered statement is true and I abide with his experience.

I seem to always forget when a post like this comes along that I am in the minority by running an open loft. My pairs are not stressed with chasing. They will often walk side by side doing whatever it is they do. 

As for a hen only having so many eggs. That is sudo science. It would be no different to say that a pigeon only has so many days to live. Pure "Quackery", esoteric nonsense.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The number of eggs are preset, and genetically predetermined. In other words a pre-set amount of eggs in her lifetime. how many that is depends on the hen. That is the same for human females as well.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> According to Wendell Levi my remembered statement is true and I abide with his experience.
> 
> I seem to always forget when a post like this comes along that I am in the minority by running an open loft. My pairs are not stressed with chasing. They will often walk side by side doing whatever it is they do.
> 
> As for a hen only having so many eggs. That is sudo science. It would be no different to say that a pigeon only has so many days to live. Pure "Quackery", esoteric nonsense.


While Levis book is still a useable book. We have learned more about pigeon care . And If you look At his BOOK you read that MOST everybody who raises In referance. RACING PIGEONS AND SHOW PIGEONS seperate there pairs after breeding season. His book notes the season from feb. through may. But that to depends on the area and modern methods. THEN he talks about the SQUAB farms where then pigeons was raised for FOOD. they left the birds tegether year around And wanted high production. AND he noted the average hen only layed for about FIVE years . So controled breeding Hens go way past that because they have not been over worked. He did say that birds left together NESTS should be pulled. And if they sit DO NOT let them sit longer then TEN days so they would not form crop milk. And If you new of older lofts from that date clean into the late 60s Many were not near what is seen today. A small shelter and aivery Was more the type. Seen many old ones myself back in the day. Pigeons are kept by people And people do what they do and think. Sure if a person has no way to seperate there birds Because of money reasons Space reasons Then they should one Keep less birds And do the best they can. But if they have the space area and money to build Then think of the birds. Space means more yard space. To add on or build a seperate. BUT keeping the pigeons as you see you want Is at least keeping pigeons. That keeps the hobby going. If you are happy and believe the birds are happy Then it works for you.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> The number of eggs are preset, and genetically predetermined. In other words a pre-set amount of eggs in her lifetime. how many that is depends on the hen. That is the same for human females as well.


I want a source.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The world encyclopedia: egg biology:

". In animals that produce relatively few eggs throughout their life span, the proliferation of oogonia occurs during an early period in which the individual's entire store of egg precursor cells form (in humans, this period ends before birth). At birth, a female human has about a million primary oocytes in each ovary; by the time of sexual maturity, the number has dwindled to only 200,000."


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> The number of eggs are preset, and genetically predetermined. In other words a pre-set amount of eggs in her lifetime. how many that is depends on the hen. That is the same for human females as well.


Its true.....Everything is genetically programmed....even cell death (apoptosis)


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> The world encyclopedia: egg biology:
> 
> ". In animals that produce relatively few eggs throughout their life span, the proliferation of oogonia occurs during an early period in which the individual's entire store of egg precursor cells form (in humans, this period ends before birth). At birth, a female human has about a million primary oocytes in each ovary; by the time of sexual maturity, the number has dwindled to only 200,000."


400,000 eggs divided by one egg a month in a human means she has enough eggs for over 33,000 years. It's a bit like saying the world will end as they all do ... in several billion years.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

rpalmer said:


> I want a source.


 That is pretty much very basic biology.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> That is pretty much very basic biology.


Agreed - factors such as disease, Calcium deficiency and other factors can affect the amount of eggs she lays, ie if a hen gets salmonella when she is 6 months old she may never produce a thing.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> While Levis book is still a useable book. We have learned more about pigeon care . And If you look At his BOOK you read that MOST everybody who raises In referance. RACING PIGEONS AND SHOW PIGEONS seperate there pairs after breeding season. His book notes the season from feb. through may. But that to depends on the area and modern methods. THEN he talks about the SQUAB farms where then pigeons was raised for FOOD. they left the birds tegether year around And wanted high production. AND he noted the average hen only layed for about FIVE years . So controled breeding Hens go way past that because they have not been over worked. He did say that birds left together NESTS should be pulled. And if they sit DO NOT let them sit longer then TEN days so they would not form crop milk. And If you new of older lofts from that date clean into the late 60s Many were not near what is seen today. A small shelter and aivery Was more the type. Seen many old ones myself back in the day. Pigeons are kept by people And people do what they do and think. Sure if a person has no way to seperate there birds Because of money reasons Space reasons Then they should one Keep less birds And do the best they can. But if they have the space area and money to build Then think of the birds. Space means more yard space. To add on or build a seperate. BUT keeping the pigeons as you see you want Is at least keeping pigeons. That keeps the hobby going. If you are happy and believe the birds are happy Then it works for you.


http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/2011/05/23/tiny-loft-fascinating-pigeon-racing-method/

*It was a very refreshing experience seeing Ron’s loft and birds. It illustrates that you don’t need hundreds of pigeons to compete, you don’t need massive lofts and big youngbird teams. You don’t need complicated feeding regimes or expensive medicines. You just need good pigeons with a tough constitution. Oh, and one tiny loft.*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/2011/05/23/tiny-loft-fascinating-pigeon-racing-method/
> 
> *It was a very refreshing experience seeing Ron’s loft and birds. It illustrates that you don’t need hundreds of pigeons to compete, you don’t need massive lofts and big youngbird teams. You don’t need complicated feeding regimes or expensive medicines. You just need good pigeons with a tough constitution. Oh, and one tiny loft.*


Pretty impressive.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/2011/05/23/tiny-loft-fascinating-pigeon-racing-method/
> 
> *It was a very refreshing experience seeing Ron’s loft and birds. It illustrates that you don’t need hundreds of pigeons to compete, you don’t need massive lofts and big youngbird teams. You don’t need complicated feeding regimes or expensive medicines. You just need good pigeons with a tough constitution. Oh, and one tiny loft.*


And the story is. He keeps his birds together. AND in a small loft. SO people do what people do. You are not proving a point. Read this article before.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He keeps them in a small loft, but he doesn't house them like rollers in a kit box. His birds do have room. He doesn't over crowd his birds and he does well.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't understand why rollers need to be kept the way they are?!


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> And the story is. He keeps his birds together. AND in a small loft. SO people do what people do. You are not proving a point. Read this article before.


You seem to believe that I either don't read an item or I do not comprehend what I have written!


re lee said:


> While Levis book is still a useable book. We have learned more about pigeon care . *And If you look At his BOOK* you read that MOST everybody who raises In referance. RACING PIGEONS AND SHOW PIGEONS seperate there pairs after breeding season. His book notes the season from feb. through may. But that to depends on the area and modern methods. THEN he talks about the SQUAB farms where then pigeons was raised for FOOD. they left the birds tegether year around And wanted high production. AND he noted the average hen only layed for about FIVE years . So controled breeding Hens go way past that because they have not been over worked. He did say that birds left together NESTS should be pulled. And if they sit DO NOT let them sit longer then TEN days so they would not form crop milk. And If you new of older lofts from that date clean into the late 60s Many were not near what is seen today. A small shelter and aivery Was more the type. Seen many old ones myself back in the day. Pigeons are kept by people And people do what they do and think. *Sure if a person has no way to seperate there birds Because of money reasons Space reasons Then they should one Keep less birds And do the best they can.* But if they have the space area and money to build Then think of the birds. Space means more yard space. To add on or build a seperate. BUT keeping the pigeons as you see you want Is at least keeping pigeons. That keeps the hobby going. If you are happy and believe the birds are happy Then it works for you.


 And when I get the time I'm going to show you where in Mr. Levi's book that you are only partially correct with your five year statement. I have read what you are referring to but there is more that either you have not read or have chosen to exclude. It ha to be one or the other because I have read it and have a good recall on this subject. I just need the time to kill to give you the page number and the edition.

Sky King says it's rude to be honestly blunt with a person who spreads fear, uncertainty and doubt about an excellent software program. But will he admonish you for your assumptions? For you accusations? Nooo way. I guess you will now grow a thin skin after shedding the tough one you had writing.

Please read the bold print in your statement above and man up an apologize. You me or anyone else does not need a pigeon production plant to be modern, up to date and provide proper care for their pigeons.

I know this is off topic but I'm not the one who lead it astray. I'm merely pointing out what was said to be a truth and is not. I am only standing up for myself. What a shame.

I guess if all this forum is good for is to sell birds to new-bees and pass along advise that will make the other guy win over you then I've stayed long enough.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Charis said:


> I don't understand why rollers need to be kept the way they are?!


You may want to either get a book on training Rollers which will explain it. Or look around the web at some of the may sites dedicated to rollers. There is a wealth of information out there. Google is your friend.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

rpalmer said:


> You may want to either get a book on training Rollers which will explain it. Or look around the web at some of the may sites dedicated to rollers. There is a wealth of information out there. Google is your friend.



That's okay. I would never keep my rollers the way many keep rollers.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

newbie/bulldoger said:


> im wondering if your let the birds out daily for exercise and worm and treat infections keeping everyone healthy in the setup why cant these birds be housed in a larger styled kit like the roller guys/girls do. i used to live in the city and i always found these birds to be highly adaptable, but i always see these elaborate lofts for these homing birds. this is an example i found recently of something that i would find acceptable to what im saying.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAb0l9KIYu4
> 
> ...


R J Palmer. Look at the links on the first post here. Why cannt this person start out like this. That is what this thread is about. It is not about selling pigeons. Its about a person that does not have any pigeons but wants to get some. But does not want to start with a larger loft It is not about you keeping your birds together year around. It is not about more people seperating theres. . It is not about searching the web to prove your idea works. It is only about a new person asking for help.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

re lee said:


> R J Palmer. Look at the links on the first post here. Why cannt this person start out like this. That is what this thread is about. It is not about selling pigeons. Its about a person that does not have any pigeons but wants to get some. But does not want to start with a larger loft It is not about you keeping your birds together year around. It is not about more people seperating theres. . It is not about searching the web to prove your idea works. It is only about a new person asking for help.


I agree, There is nothing wrong with what they are suggesting for a set up to begin with, If they choose to have more birds in the future then they will need to expand.

I personally believe a roller kept in a kit that is let out to FLY is equal to if not better than leaving your pigeons in a loft all day every day where they can flap a little and fly from perch to perch. I guess it is similar to comparing a working farm dog, Kept in confinement but allowed out each day to work, to a city dog that has a small bag yard to run/jog around in, I know I would choose to be a farm dog. 

Lastly, the only advice I have for the thread maker is to keep the lofts incredibly clean if they are on the smaller side, Fresh water and food is a must but ofcourse you know this, And also ventilation will be important. My rollers are kept in a large kit environment but I let them out to bath twice a week and sit around in the sun for an hour or so, If this is possible then its a good idea as it helps to keep there mind stimulated.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The bigger the size the better obviously. But these are just guides. It is possible to house homers in a roller kit box. Obviously the box will be a little bit bigger because homers are almost twice as big as rollers. Obviously the birds will have to be flown as well for exercise.

The roller kit box is use for flying. It thus look cramp because you don't want those rollers mating or having some mating behavior inside the box and the hen ends up with egg. A roller hen with egg inside her body and doing some rolling is a disaster waiting to happen.

The way I see it is that you have to observe your birds. See what works and what does not. Then modify your loft for intended goals.


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