# Not Black - Not Andalusion? What?



## BCBrian (Nov 23, 2008)

Here's a new bird in my loft that I picked up from a friend. It's nestmate is a textbook show coloured Andalusion.

This bird is darker than the photos show - the flash bleaches it out - anyone would call it a black pigeon under normal light. Except for a few feathers that I thought (at first - when I saw the pigeon) were feather bloom, or paint, that had rubbed off on some feathers. It's not - it's part of the bird.

I suspect it's, genetically-speaking, an Andalusion (Spread Blue, Indigo) but I've never seen the gene expressed this way, nor seen such a lack of penetrance or expressivity. Any one have any comments? 

Here's the flash-lit "Black" pigeon.










Here's the wing cover feathers "bloom" marks.










Here's one wing - the other is all black.










And it's biggest "off-black" markings - the tail.










Has anyone else ever seen "Andalusion" so weakly expressed or so limited in effect on a bird?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It is odd alright*

It almost looks like a weakly expressed form of grizzle but I rather doubt that it is. I don't have any explanation for it either. What are the parents?

Indigoes and andalusions can have blacks but this bird doesn't look very black either. I also have some light blacks and I don't know what else to call them. Mine don't have the odd silvery white mixed in but that has to be something else. I've had some that were near black but were light enough to see a black bar. I'm still not sure what they are. I've seen others call them black bars but I don't know what that means exactly.

Can andalusion and black have something that's in between? I don't know that either, haven't had them long enough but I've got a youngster that may fit this in between category as well. I'll try to get a picture of him. Came from a reduced black cock and indigo hen. Looks like a dark andalusion but not moulted out yet.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Black Velvet*

*The bird is a T check ( BLACK VELVET) look at the tail you will see the white stripe on the two outer tail feathers.I currently have an andalusion mated to a black velvet. What I get from this pair are as follows, Andalusion, Indigo,Black Velvet, and even a regular blue check. There for one or both of the parents is carring check which is masked by spread. One must realy know that is in the background of the parents to better understand what the parents will throw to their young.* GEORGE ..PS. Many people will mate a black velvet to an andalusion thinking that the black velvet is a black spread.


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## BCBrian (Nov 23, 2008)

George - If it's an extreme T-pattern Check - do you have any idea what could account for the lighter colours within?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Could be George*

The albescent strip is pretty dark but at least visible. The presence of indigo could wipe out the tail bar. It also looks to have a hint of bronze in the flights, also from indigo. I don't understand the odd light gray feathers but it appears to be some other factor.

So, what would you call the color of this bird? If it's t pattern, it isn't andalusion.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Bill it is the blue trying to brake thru.You might say that it is a poor example of a T-check velvet.*GEORGE


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## BCBrian (Nov 23, 2008)

Question:

Does even a HINT of an albescent strip on the edge of a tailfeather mean a bird showing it is not genetically a spread pigeon?

Most of my "blacks" (racing homers - with admittedly "poor quality" black colouration) still show hints of an albescent tail strip.

By looking at a bird (parentage unknown) and as yet un-bred - is there a single visual test that can differentiate a "genetic black" from a "genetic T-pattern" "dark velvet" blue pigeon 100% of the time?


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

It is a beautiful bird that is what.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

BCBrian said:


> Question:
> 
> Does even a HINT of an albescent strip on the edge of a tailfeather mean a bird showing it is not genetically a spread pigeon?
> 
> ...


With a real black, as in spread blue, you're not supposed to be able to see the tail bar or the pattern on the wings, even though on some you can still tell a little where the bars are. I don't think they're supposed to show the strips on the edge of the feathers.
With velvets/t-patterns the tail should be the tail of a normal blue pigeon, where you can tell the difference between the tail bar and the color of the rest of the feather.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

BCBrian said:


> Question:
> 
> Does even a HINT of an albescent strip on the edge of a tailfeather mean a bird showing it is not genetically a spread pigeon?
> 
> ...


Hi Brian,#1yes,#2 they are not true blacks,#3 yes the true black will not have an albescent strip,while the T-check velvet does. .......GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*



george simon said:


> *Bill it is the blue trying to brake thru.You might say that it is a poor example of a T-check velvet.*GEORGE


Why does it not have a tail bar? T patterns have tail bars, they were called blue tailed blacks by the likes of Quinn. I suppose it could be some interraction with indigo. Also, t patterns should have a white albescent strip unless modified by smoky, dirty or sooty. Many dark birds do carry these factors.

This still offers no explanation of the white (silver?) and I don't have one either.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Like George says*



BCBrian said:


> Question:
> 
> Does even a HINT of an albescent strip on the edge of a tailfeather mean a bird showing it is not genetically a spread pigeon?
> 
> ...


Yes, they should be easy to tell apart. True blacks or spreads are much blacker than t pattern blues and the strip is one of the markers. It is not very common to have spread in racing homers either. Probably about as common as recessive red or recessive yellow. They exist but are out of the norm.

As Becky said, there are so called poor quality blacks that do show a pattern in the wing but they'll still have no tail bar and no albescent strip. I have some of these and still refer to them as in betweens. I should do some breed testing to see if there is any more to it than that.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> Why does it not have a tail bar? T patterns have tail bars, they were called blue tailed blacks by the likes of Quinn. I suppose it could be some interraction with indigo. Also, t patterns should have a white albescent strip unless modified by smoky, dirty or sooty. Many dark birds do carry these factors.
> 
> This still offers no explanation of the white (silver?) and I don't have one either.
> 
> Bill


 Bill I raised two T-Check this year both have a black tail and the albescent stripe but if you look closely you can still make out the black tail bar.The pair that gave me those two also gave me ANDALUSION 3,INDIGO 5,BLUE CHECK 1 AND THE TWO T-CHECKS.this is over a two year span. .....GEORGE


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

just curious what type of pigeon this is ? very pretty and love that face


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George, happy thanksgiving*



george simon said:


> Bill I raised two T-Check this year both have a black tail and the albescent stripe but if you look closely you can still make out the black tail bar.The pair that gave me those two also gave me ANDALUSION 3,INDIGO 5,BLUE CHECK 1 AND THE TWO T-CHECKS.this is over a two year span. .....GEORGE


What color is this pair? From two indigo birds (hets) you will get 25% non indigo birds. The non indigo birds should still have tail bars as long as they are not spread. What color were the t pattern birds that were produced?

I don't see a tail bar on this bird but I do see an albescent strip. Some indigoes show a faint tail bar, as sometimes ash reds do but it's not the standout type of tail bar associated with blue pigeons. To me, this bird is indigo, whether it is t pattern or not. What do you think?

I'd still like to know what the light markings come from, interesting. I don't know if indigo suppresses pied or grizzle to a point of looking this way but maybe. Did we ever hear what the parents look like?

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> What color is this pair? From two indigo birds (hets) you will get 25% non indigo birds. The non indigo birds should still have tail bars as long as they are not spread. What color were the t pattern birds that were produced?
> 
> I don't see a tail bar on this bird but I do see an albescent strip. Some indigoes show a faint tail bar, as sometimes ash reds do but it's not the standout type of tail bar associated with blue pigeons. To me, this bird is indigo, whether it is t pattern or not. What do you think?
> 
> ...


Bill, Look at the tail again look closely at the feathers that show blue you will see black at the tip of those feathers. Which is where the tail bar would be. GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> What color is this pair? From two indigo birds (hets) you will get 25% non indigo birds. The non indigo birds should still have tail bars as long as they are not spread. What color were the t pattern birds that were produced?
> 
> I don't see a tail bar on this bird but I do see an albescent strip. Some indigoes show a faint tail bar, as sometimes ash reds do but it's not the standout type of tail bar associated with blue pigeons. To me, this bird is indigo, whether it is t pattern or not. What do you think?
> 
> ...


 HAPPY THANKSGIVING BILL, In post #3 I spoke of this pair they are Andalusion cock and a T-Check hen.All the Indigos from this pair are indigo checks.


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## BCBrian (Nov 23, 2008)

LakotaLoft,

It's a Show Type Racing homer. I'll post another picture when I can. It's head is nice - but not as short-beaked as it looks (that's due to the head angle) in the photograph.


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## BCBrian (Nov 23, 2008)

I've just found out what this birds parents were. I don't think this will help.

The answer "Cock was black - the hen was Andalusion".

Now - as before - no one has a clue what the grey/blue feather are - and - after reading these posts - there seems to be a less than unanimous opinion on what constitutes the visual "proof" of a genetic black pigeon vs a genetic velvet blue.

Using the ansence or presence of an albescent strip to "prove" a pigeon is a "blue" - as opposed to being a black - might not be quite as realiable as some have professed it to be. 

The mystery continues.


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## BCBrian (Nov 23, 2008)

Here are some more shots of the "mystery" blue/velvet/andalusion/black/+? pigeon.

Him and his nestmate brother.









From the side.









A better "tail shot".


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2008)

what ever the color is they are both gorgeous pigeons no matter what love seeing what you got going on there thanks


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Well, he's interesting, no matter what he is*

I would definately breed from him to see what he throws. He still looks spread to me but some unknown modifier is present as well. I wonder just how black the parent was or if it showed anything unusual.

Bill


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## loftkeeper10 (Jul 31, 2004)

My opinion they are andys with different shades and expression of the color what i have read and seen .I would say they are andys without the laceing seen in good colored andys


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