# sudden illness hitting my loft



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Yesterday I lost one of my birds very suddenly to what I thought was an isolated illness. She had been fine the day before, but overnight she'd regurgitated some undigested seeds with a clear fluid, and was lethargic and breathing heavily. I took her to the vet and he started a throat and fecal culture, saying he suspected it was a "minor" GI infection, somewhere past the crop. He gave me an antibiotic and said he'd call with the results later.

Well, she died a few hours later in her isolation cage. And I thought it was over. But this morning, I found 3 more dead birds (all of which looked fine the night before) and 3 more very sick - regurgitating seeds and breathing heavily. This time, the regurgitated fluid had yellowish and greenish bits in it. And their droppings were dark, reddish brown and a little bit slimy or jell-o like, with normal white urates. The droppings and the fluid smelled "fishy."

I rushed the 3 sick ones to another emergency clinic because my regular vet's office was closed. By the time I got home, two of them had died in the carrier. A yellow fluid leaked out of their mouths after death.

The emergency vet sent me home with a flock treatment of Tylan for the water, and will call in several days with the swab culture results.

I am posting here because I really don't think I have several days to wait for these culture results if I want to save the rest of my birds. But I have no idea what this illness could be. It seems to take them very fast - just a few hours after they appear to be ill.

Does it sound like the Tylan is the right treatment? I thought it was for respiratory problems.

I am isolating any of the birds who look sick. I have also changed their feed. All of this happened a day or so after I had opened a new bag of feed. It looks fine and smells fine. But I noticed that they were leaving most of the red millet uneaten. And most of the regurgitated seeds consisted of the red millet. So I am not taking any chances, in case it is bad.

Any advice would be appreciated while I wait to hear from the vet.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Are they young birds?


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Charis said:


> Are they young birds?


They range in age from 06-09, so...some young and some older.
The '09 birds were all hatched in early Spring.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Running out, so just a quick reply.

In your most sick birds I would definitely pull any food/seeds out of their isolation cages for a bit. It seems what ever they have is not allowing things to move through their GI system and if they consume more food it may just slow things down even more. Besides, with acute illness like this most birds are fine for a few days without food as long as they are well hydrated, this is just until you get a better handle on things. Also, since you are relying on oral medication this makes it even more important that things are moving GI wise.

If you find their crops are not emptying at all, it's really important that you get back to the vets and have him administer antibiotics by injection, as if GI stasis is taking place they are not getting much, if any, benefit from oral meds.

How many birds do you have? What other meds do you have?

Karyn


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Running out, so just a quick reply.
> 
> If you find their crops are not emptying at all, it's really important that you get back to the vets and have him administer antibiotics by injection, as if GI stasis is taking place they are not getting much, if any, benefit from oral meds.
> 
> ...



The first one I brought to the vet was given an antibiotic injection and some fluids injected. But it must have been too late to save her. 

The rest of the sick ones are definitely in crop stasis. From the looks of them right now, I don't think they'll make it until morning. 

I have about 30 left who do not appear sick yet. I've got some other meds in small quantities, but nothing that would be enough for a flock treatment, and nothing injectable.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

At the start of the real cold season I also had 3 birds suddenly die and I found them on the floor--one , two years old and I thought maybe it was the heater that I used to keep the temperature warmer and maybe it was just too dry for them????? I took their bodies to my Vet for an exam and she said that she did not find anything wrong with these three females (only females) No egg problems and telling me that they did not eat for a few days (something I missed) although I did see reguritated seed in clear liquid around when I cleaned the loft so I also thought maybe the seed or maybe they got into something and it is still a mystery to this day..?? I have owned birds for more than 10 years and never had this---shocked me----They were my prettiest birds too.. They had yellow coming out of mouth and very dark droppings if what I could tell--one died one day and two the next--quick---. c.hert...????? She found nothing wrong??????


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

c.hert said:


> At the start of the real cold season I also had 3 birds suddenly die and I found them on the floor--one , two years old and I thought maybe it was the heater that I used to keep the temperature warmer and maybe it was just too dry for them????? I took their bodies to my Vet for an exam and she said that she did not find anything wrong with these three females (only females) No egg problems and telling me that they did not eat for a few days (something I missed) although I did see reguritated seed in clear liquid around when I cleaned the loft so I also thought maybe the seed or maybe they got into something and it is still a mystery to this day..?? I have owned birds for more than 10 years and never had this---shocked me----They were my prettiest birds too.. They had yellow coming out of mouth and very dark droppings if what I could tell--one died one day and two the next--quick---. c.hert...????? She found nothing wrong??????


I'm sorry that this happened to you too.
Yes - it is happening so fast...1 dead, then 3 more, then 2 more, then 1 more...I am checking them every hour and dreading the moment I open the door, what I will find. The first to go was one of my prettiest, and a very tame, special bird. 

The sick ones have very dark droppings, and some have regurgitated violently, spewing dark green goo and seeds against the sides of their cages.
And during/after death a yellow fluid comes from the crop. It all has a fishy odor.

I am sick with worry.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I have such a dread when I go out to clean and scrape the floor everyday and air it out that I might find another one on the floor. They got into something ??? I have a plywood floor smooth---no paint on anything---no new furniture or perches---perches yes but wood old ones going across and on the female side 14 wooden nest boxes no paint natural plywood--no rat poison--no screws or staples--everyday I look---clean water everyday???
Either the seed mix or the air and this seems not contagious--no sickness before that I could see and I check everyday????? The Vet checked the bodies and found nothing except no eating and some e-coli (normal amount but a little higher) I take her for her word and I don't know how well she really checked but she told me Nothing she could find..... I did at this time use pik in the grit (yellow powder mineral that I bought at a bird supply store) I have since removed it thinking maybe that was contaminated and I have not had any problems until Diamond and she is fine (she brought home gold writing today (copper). It is very worrying and I know for you too...Check you supplements or pik or paint or new furniture or staples or hooks or heaters or car fumes??????????


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry to learn of this. I certainly don't know what may be making your birds ill and causing them to die in such a short time, but something similar happened with ringneck doves that my friend, Bart, had. He lost approximately 90 doves within about 72-96 hours. The cause was Chlamydiosis/Psittacosis/Ornithosis. This is a reportable disease as it can be transmitted to humans, so it might be wise to find out for sure if this is the cause, and if so, you need to go through a course of antibiotics yourself. 

I think I would at least call the vet and see if s/he thinks this might be the cause.

Terry


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Don't know much about that disease but it sure sounds scary and I will call my vet...It for me did not seem that contagous for I lost three and it stopped and it seemed all in the digestive track for they were throwing up seed for I found a few scattered in unlikely places---in front of nest boxes and on the floor---no babies---no mating---separated for winter.....Very strange indeed...Thats for the imput....c.hert


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Not saying this is it But could be cocsid. Or Ecoli. Years back in the late 80s Had a problem near this in just 3 or for Birds. i was using a 5 gallon waterer Now It isolated and treated the birds with SUMLET for ten days Aloso gave brewers yeast tabs. The birds got to where they even dropped grains from there droppings. BUT they survived with this treatment. They went off feed But I hand fed them for a couple days. Then i went back to 1 gallong waters that i could clean daily instead of the 5 gallong one that i cleaned weekly. NO MORE SICK BIRDs. Now this may or may not help. Sulmet can be got at most any vet supply


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Something to think about here for I did change my metal water container over for wintertime and cold weather (it got real cold Colorado) changed it to a 5 gallon on each side with a water warmer under as well but also had smaller ones up higher on a shelf because I had a oil filled sealed heater for warmth on low during this time--did not change that water for 2 days because of the cold----maybe---I wonder if Amoonswirl had any of these problems???? Thanks....C.hert


----------



## LSfreeland (Oct 31, 2009)

If your birds were all ok before you opened the new bag of feed,
I would definitely be looking at the new feed you opened for poison .
Is it different from the old? did you get it from some where other than your regular place? are you feeding all your birds with the same feed?
i would pull all feed and get some straight wheat and milo and feed only that until your birds are better.
Please keep us posted on your findings.


----------



## windmill Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

It is always difficult for us to hear of sick birds. Many times we don't know what is going on. So one of the best ways to treat the problem. Is the prosess of elimination. I think you have done right.

Isolate the sick bird from the flock.
cover the cage.
Add heat with a heating pad.
Get the bird to the vet.
If you are waiting on cultures.
Make sure the pens are spotless clean.
Use like a mild bleach and water to clean or something like that.
Clean drinkers with the mild bleach water. Rinse very well.
Once you are sure things are spotless. 
And you are sure the birds are getting clean water and food every day. 
I will start my birds on a 4 in one product like what Foy's sales. Most of the time your bird's are getting better. Before the cultures come back.
It has wormer in it also.

Then you can use AC Vinager. probiodics, and vitimin. Good luck! Jim


----------



## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

LSfreeland said:


> If your birds were all ok before you opened the new bag of feed,
> I would definitely be looking at the new feed you opened for poison .
> Is it different from the old? did you get it from some where other than your regular place? are you feeding all your birds with the same feed?
> i would pull all feed and get some straight wheat and milo and feed only that until your birds are better.
> Please keep us posted on your findings.


I agree with this,however the poison could be somewhere else also.
Kurps


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

If you are sure that it is not poison I would guess that may be more than one thing. E-coli plus some viral infection. Greenish/yellow/smelly liquid in the crop are usually caused by adenovirus, circovirus infections.
Windmill Ranch had good suggestions and using immune boosters will help whatever it is.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

LSfreeland said:


> If your birds were all ok before you opened the new bag of feed,
> I would definitely be looking at the new feed you opened for poison .
> Is it different from the old? did you get it from some where other than your regular place? are you feeding all your birds with the same feed?
> i would pull all feed and get some straight wheat and milo and feed only that until your birds are better.
> Please keep us posted on your findings.


*I also feel that this may be poison , check the feed , also there were some post about changing to larger water containers, if these containers are are ZINC coated, many supplements and meds can react with the zinc coating and will cause poisoning.I will need to check my books as I remember reading about this type of poisoning happening, but want to be sure.*GEORGE


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

george simon said:


> *I also feel that this may be poison , check the feed , also there were some post about changing to larger water containers, if these containers are are ZINC coated, many supplements and meds can react with the zinc coating and will cause poisoning.I will need to check my books as I remember reading about this type of poisoning happening, but want to be sure.*GEORGE


Hi George (and all)

My waterers are plastic, and I change them daily - bring one in to wash it and bring a fresh one out every morning with clean water.

I removed the questionable feed, and not wanting to buy the same type from the same supplier in case of a large-scale contamination, I have replaced it with a pelleted feed instead. Normally I'd wean them from one to the other but I cannot take the chance that I'm feeding them poison. (Incidentally, I asked at the feed store if they had heard any customers having the same issue after opening new feed, and they said no.)

Two of my feeders have a zinc coating and the other is plastic. I have been giving them probios occasionally in their (zinc) feeders, but this is nothing new.

My grit hopper is also plastic. I dumped that out as well and replaced it with fresh grit.

I keep the loft dry, although occasionally if it rains some will splash in through the door to the flight pen. When this happens, I remove any wet bedding. I am using straw now, but today I plan to remove all of the bedding and disinfect. Will probably keep a bare floor until this is under control - so I can easily see any regurgitations or dropping changes.

Thanks everyone for your feedback and I hope to have some more news from the vet today. I will post later. My hope is that by sharing this, I can prevent anyone else from suffering the devastation.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is a heartbreaking situation, I hope that it is under control soon. 

A newly opened bale of straw can also be the source of multiple sudden deaths (fungus), but although vomiting can be a symptom the main symptoms are respiratory.

Have you got any activated charcoal? If the pigeons aren't on medication then there is no harm in treating them with that wich should bind any poisons in their digestive system. 

I would also have a post mortem on one.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm so sorry to hear of your problem. The "not knowing" is always nerve wracking. I hope the others do OK.

Tylosin is used for bacterial infections. Comments "Very effective against mycoplasma and against ornithose complex when combined with tetracyclines"

Have you introduced any new birds lately?
I'm inclined to guess poisoning (contamination) also. And was wondering about charcoal also, but don't know if you can use it while on antibiotics.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Karen,

I'm SO sorry to hear this tragedy. I pray this is resolved soon and you find out the culprit/s

I just want to say, if this is respiratory, and you are using tylan concentrate,( or suanovil, or ornicure), you need to use it in conjunction with aureomycin. It is much more effective.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The yellow and green stuff is from a massive inflammatory response in the GI, cause unknown without taking samples and looking at them under the microscope. You won't see toxins like Aflatoxins from fungi (like aspergillus) or serious bacterial toxins like a "Shiga toxin" producing E. coli (that's just an example--I don't know if that one affects birds but it can sure take humans out). Me, I'd be looking for fast-moving (very motile) bacilli in crop swabs and wetmounts of that regurgitated stuff and poop, as well as looking for fungal hyphae and budding yeasts. That's direct cytology and you almost have to cattle-prod some vets into doing it, possibly because of the expense that they don't want to pass on to you but in an emergency...

If it were Chlamydophila, you'd be harder-pressed to find anything in the cytology. We can see more of the result and less of the cause in such cases but they could look for elemental body inclusions from imprints of certain organs in a necropsy.

If they're in crop stasis and it's bacterial, then oral medications will probably be useless. That said, you'd need to give them stuff parenterally (with a needle, somehow).

Pidgey


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> If it were Chlamydophila, you'd be harder-pressed to find anything in the cytology. We can see more of the result and less of the cause in such cases but they could look for elemental body inclusions from imprints of certain organs in a necropsy.
> 
> If they're in crop stasis and it's bacterial, then oral medications will probably be useless. That said, you'd need to give them stuff parenterally (with a needle, somehow).
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks Pidgey.
I am hoping to hear something soon regarding the swabs that were taken. I will probably also have a necropsy done, however the most recently deceased was more than 12 hours ago.

One other thing to note - I remember now I also had opened a new bale of straw on Friday when I cleaned. I have removed all of the straw now and disinfected the floor, perches, and nest boxes with bleach. 

I've removed 8 more birds from the loft who just didn't look right. 
The birds I have in isolation are no longer regurgitating. One is just breathing heavily, her droppings are normal which may indicate she's been eating and digesting.

Two of them look very lethargic - lying down and breathing heavily. Several are moderately lethargic, and one I had brought in last night because I saw him vomit seeds. He looks normal presently, but his droppings are a little small.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, for the two very lethargic birds and the rest as well for that matter it is important that they stay well hydrated, to the point of administering extra fluids. Whatever it is seems to be causing toxicosis so we want to do to keep flushing them with fluids to help flush their body's GI system of toxins (if it is not in stasis) and by keeping them well flushed with fluids we are hoping to increase their body's fluid volume to reduce the concentration of the toxins that are systemic. I would use Pedilite to do this.

The two lethargic birds may really benefit from being put in intensive care where they could be given Sub'Q fluids to help keep their systems flushed and if they are in crop stasis, Sub'Q fluids really help in getting the GI system started again. Their are other treatments your vet can start for toxicosis that may get them by the worst part of this. You may also want to consider treating them empirically with injectable Baytril, it will give broad coverage for many bacterial infections, including chlamydophila (ornithosis), until cultures are returned.

Good luck with them,

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, several of the tests that I'm talking about doing are not "cultures". That is, they may be done at the time of taking the samples. For instance, doing a "wet mount" of a crop swab or a fecal smear only takes as long as wiping the sample on the slide, possibly adding a small drop of saline, putting on a coverslip and then examining it under the microscope. You're looking for any bacilli that are zooming along. You'd also be looking to see if the color of that dark fecal matter is due to occult blood (sign of internal hemorrhaging into the intestines fairly high up in the GI) by looking for red blood cell nuclei (they look like ovals with a fe knobs on them). A fecal smear (it need not be stained, although that can help) would also demonstrate whether there was a severe fungal problem, too. All of that can be done in the space of an hour or less.

Pidgey


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Karen, for the two very lethargic birds and the rest as well for that matter it is important that they stay well hydrated, to the point of administering extra fluids. Whatever it is seems to be causing toxicosis so we want to do to keep flushing them with fluids to help flush their body's GI system of toxins (if it is not in stasis) and by keeping them well flushed with fluids we are hoping to increase their body's fluid volume to reduce the concentration of the toxins that are systemic. I would use Pedilite to do this.
> 
> The two lethargic birds may really benefit from being put in intensive care where they could be given Sub'Q fluids to help keep their systems flushed and if they are in crop stasis, Sub'Q fluids really help in getting the GI system started again. Their are other treatments your vet can start for toxicosis that may get them by the worst part of this. You may also want to consider treating them empirically with injectable Baytril, it will give broad coverage for many bacterial infections, including chlamydophila (ornithosis), until cultures are returned.
> 
> ...


What is the best way to administer Sub Q fluids. Under the neck skin? And what fluids - water? Pedialyte? And how much? 

I have needles and syringes, but I don't have the injectible form of any meds. 
I am anxious to do anything I can to get them out of stasis so they can absorb the oral meds. Otherwise I don't think I will be able to save any of them.

One of these birds I had tried handfeeding with Kaytee formula but she just regurgitated it. Am hesitant to administer oral fluids for fear of aspiration.


Also -
Regarding the vet - since it is a national Holiday, their lab is closed today. I will hear nothing more until tomorrow. No news is NOT good news today.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, I am sorry I was not a little more clear.

Pedialyte is for oral administration only. Sub-Q fluids in birds are generally administered in the inguinal area (groin) and for a bird weighing about 325-350 grams, an amount of about 10-12cc is given at a time. The preferred fluid is lactated ringers solution, although a vet will have a few others options on which fluid to use, depending on what he feels a patient may need (such as dextrose).

The sub-Q fluid and injections are best left to your vet to do, as if done incorrectly they can bring harm to your bird.

What I would suggest is that for your birds in crop stasis, that their crops be flushed and then started on sub-q fluids and anti-biotics ASAP. Please do not feed your really sick birds food of any sort right now, food will slow things down when they need flushed and hydrated.

Don't worry about results right now, you are just trying to keep your birds going until hopefully get by the worst of this and you get any lab results.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How about some pictures of the poop?

Pidgey


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Karen,I think that Feefo is right about the straw. Pneumonia: Acute purulent pneumonia is caused by Aspergillus fumigatus;Aspergillus is normally contracted from straw that has been exposed to moisture. I see that you have removed the straw so I think things should get better.* GEORGE


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> How about some pictures of the poop?
> 
> Pidgey


I wish I had thought to take those earlier.
Since yesterday, I have not seen any of the foul brown droppings. All of the birds who had that symptom have died.
Just saw your post about the wet mounts.
I do think that the reddish brown was caused by blood...the reason I say that is one of the birds who died last night regurgitated a material that looked liked it was caked with dried blood. Much more red than brown.

The isolated birds who are making droppings are making normal looking, but small poops with no foul odors.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Karen...You've done what you can do with the loft and taken your bird to the vet for culture is critical too. Most important is the necropsy on one of the birds that has passed. It's easy for a vet to misdiagnose and place a bird on antibiotics, when the problem is really fungal as our member, TheSnipes has the misfortune of finding out....the fungus was found in a necropsy.

I don't know what's making your birds die although like everyone else I have my suspicions. We can all guess until the lights go out and it's just that...guesses and opinions which can be even more confusing. 
I'm very sorry about all this heartache and the loss of you birds. I commend you for getting...ON IT...and doing all you can.


----------



## windmill Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

Second thought.

I don't think I would lean towards poisen. And here is why.

I think 99% of your birds would be already dead from the first day. 

As quick as the first birds were effected. Atleast all would show signs of being very sick. 

Also your vet would be wanting the bag of feed right now. It is a very serious thing to find piosen feed.

That being said - 
Remember things you do at home with out the vet knowing can mess things up also.

Ask your vet if you can change to a pigeon pellet. 
It is easier for the birds to digest.

Then you also know that they are getting all the other stuff that they need. Ask to add probois.

Ask questions of the vet. If they snub you off or are ont open to answer your questions. They should not be your vet. 

Then no matter what the out come is. Tell us so we can all learn also. Evern the best bird person can learn something new now and then. Jim


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Check your Loft. Sounds to me, they are eating something bad. To me throwing up seed, means over excited parent feeding young, OR BAD feed Ect. Dave


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Karen, I'm so sorry that you're going through all this. Has anything gotten any better now that you have removed the straw? Hope things are quieting down for you.


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Jay3 said:


> Karen, I'm so sorry that you're going through all this. Has anything gotten any better now that you have removed the straw? Hope things are quieting down for you.


Thanks Jay3, Charis, windmill, Luckyt, and all for your concern and helpful advice during this awful experience...

I have not found any newly sick birds since yesterday morning. Keeping fingers crossed that the worst is over.

There are 4 sick birds still in isolation. I have been giving them pedialyte orally, as well as the meds from the vet. But I fear I may only be prolonging their suffering by trying to save them. 11 others have already succumbed.

One vet tells me that the lab results will not be in until Friday. The other seems to be avoiding my calls, though I have spoken to the receptionist and the answering machine quite a few times. I hope to bring one of the deceased in for a necropsy this evening.

I will post here when I find out more.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi amoonswirl,


Various things or combintions of things can occasion the syndrome you describe.


Canker can do it...and, or, Canker attended with Candida...and, or, most probably of all, Canker, attended with Candida, following in the wake of a Bacterial ( e-coli or Salmonella ) or Viral infection.


If it was me, I'd...

Check everyone to see who seems like they have this...segregate the afflicted.


Rigorously clean Flight or Habitat of those not yet appearing to be effected.


With-hold Seeds and Water from the afflicted/effected, pending Crop improvements/clearing.


Seek injectable Metronidazole...


If no injectible is available fast locally, then dissolve a Metronidazole Tablet in a dose of Medistatin and ACV Water...administer the Medistatin/Metronidazole/ACV 'Cocktail' directly into the lower Crop, via Mr. Tube or Lavage...and...


If Crops have too much static liquid already, have an Avian Vet or other experienced Licenced practioner evacuate excess fluid from the Crops, and also Saline Flush Crops.

Strongly consider obtaining a prescription for Sulfamethoxazole-Trimethaprim...and, administer it according to directions, as part of the regimen.


If you can not get it, then consider Doxycycline and Baytril together...even adding 'DIVET' if you have any...dissolve Tablets in the Medistatin...tube in.


If the Crops are still passing Liquids, then the tubed-in Meds will be able get somewhere.


Probably...it'd be good to put everyone on the regimen, as, early-symptomatic phase with this, as you have seen, can be 'short'.


If it's a Virus, or not, either way, Bacterial/e-coli ( or some Salmonella ) ...along with opportuning Canker/Candida may very well be at play.


I had confronted a same describe syndrome here, and, the regimen I have mentioned worked pretty well if began early enough, or, at first sign of, or by day two or so at latest, of first noticing symptoms.


Phil
Lv


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thank you for the update Karen. We're praying for you. I can only imagine what you must be going through, and I feel as though I'm going through it with you. You have been constantly in my thoughts. Karen, you are doing all you can, and maybe these 4 will pull through. I'll be waiting for your update. Sending prayers your way.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Thank you for the update Karen. We're praying for you. I can only imagine what you must be going through, and I feel as though I'm going through it with you. You have been constantly in my thoughts. Karen, you are doing all you can, and maybe these 4 will pull through. I'll be waiting for your update. Sending prayers your way.


Ditto and big hug.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> But I fear I may only be prolonging their suffering by trying to save them.


Karen, I always feel where there is life there is hope and I don't feel there is anyone who has kept birds for any length of time that has not been surprised at some remarkable recoveries these guys are capable of making with a little help, you're there, we're not, but don't give up hope on them.

Phil has made a good post, very in line with my thinking, plus he has been through something like this, I would give a lot of weight to his suggestions.

Karyn


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry you have to go through this. You have received excellent advice from our members. Hang in there, I hope the worst is over.
Hope you can have a necropsy done, that might shed some light.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Trouble is...with a syndrome like this...chances are reliably, that no one, no Vet or Lab Tests or Necropsy is going to find anything useful or enlightening.

A Virus, or, e-coli or Salmonella are practically impossible to obtain conclusive Test results for, and, these agents can occasion widely varying presentations, no matter how much one spends, and, even if a test says "Yes", what does one do then?


Merely administering a superficially appropriate Antibiotic for a probable e-coli or Salmonella presence, will probably not answer the ancillary issues, nor, the secondary infections/problems.

If a digestive system shuts down, one is no longer able to expect any Oral Administration Medicines to be able to enter the Bird's system.


Dehydration by then is also a problem, which has bearing on the recourse of Injections, and, their metabolization and effects on the Liver.


Hence...in my opinion, treat as early as possible for Canker and Candida, Orally, via a 'coctail' tubed in. If the Bird is still producuing Urates and the Crop is still passing Liquids, so much the better...keep the Bird hydrated...with-hold food, provide warmth...and do one's best to get the Crop and upper GI issues lessened/lessening, or resolved, and or, to get the digestive system passing it's prior contents...and, address problems in the Crop and the digestive System whether they are conjectured to be primary, or, secondary to one's guess as for what illness is the main issue, and which illnesses/conditions are along with it.


e-coli and Salmonella and Canker can all generate obturating inflamatory debris in any area of the digestive system...occasaioning slimey regurgations of Seed and foul green-and-or-clear liquid, the upassing foods and liquids themselves supporting infections of new kinds in the upper GI...thus, a regimen addressing those, which accompanies a systemic Antibiotic, the Antibitic may cease the production of the obturating debris, which m-a-y-b-e cam then soon pass, while the ancillary meds address perils and evolving consequences of the Bird's other issues.


There are possibly several key things going on, in other words.

And, usually, tests and Necropsies at best, will merely describe in their own terms, what is already able to be noted or deduced in an initial description of symptoms, before it is too late.

It's possible Coccidia could do this, but I never see Coccidia problems here to have dealt with it...if it is Coccidia, a simple test whould indicate an immodest presence of the Organism in the Feces.


Anyway...just some thoughts...


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A really bad enteric Salmonellosis can be a true nightmare because of the massive damage it can do to the GI in fairly short order. Of course, the immune system can also destroy the GI with a cytokine storm in response to some pathogen as well. The fact that the birds that died were breathing heavily may indicate a really bad increasing hemolytic anemia. As such, the bird would have less and less red blood cells to carry oxygen as time went on.

Pidgey


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Thank you for the update Karen. We're praying for you. I can only imagine what you must be going through, and I feel as though I'm going through it with you. You have been constantly in my thoughts. Karen, you are doing all you can, and maybe these 4 will pull through. I'll be waiting for your update. Sending prayers your way.


Same here. Your in my thoughts and hope you find out what happened.


----------



## BTut (Oct 18, 2009)

Karen, Sorry to hear what is going on with your birds .I have had it happen to one bird at a time and I know how I felt .I cannot imagine how you feel to have it happen to that many birds at one time my heart goes out to you.My prayers are with you keep us posted on your progress

BIll T


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*preliminary necropsy report*

Just talked to the vet about his preliminary findings.
Liver and lung damage, and a lot of internal bleeding...he suspects either a very fast acting virus or a poison or other contaminant in the feed. He's sending out tissue samples to the lab and asking them to rush it.

Two more of my healthy looking birds were dead when I got home last night. And one of the sick birds died overnight. 

I have called the feed store and spoken to the owner, advising him he may want to put a hold on selling more bags from that lot until the lab results come back. Whether or not he'll do it, I don't know.

Initial results from the fecals and swab showed a minor bacterial infection, which the vet says is not the main cause, but could have taken hold in some birds as their immune systems were compromised by something else.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, I am so sorry to hear about more deaths, I'm sure you must be devastated by this, my heart and prayers go out to you.

One other thing I would do right now, especially hearing about liver damage, is to try and increase liver function support as much as I could, as this is the main organ that would be trying to detoxify whatever toxins may be involved.

I have used milk thistle, aloe vera gel/juice and ALA (alpha lipoic acid 4mg/kg once a day) to do this in the past could possibly be helpful for them right now.

Karyn


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is devastating, Karen. I am so sorry you lost more birds. What a nightmare.
Sounds like some kind of very aggressive bug or poison.

Reti


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

amoonswirl said:


> Just talked to the vet about his preliminary findings.
> Liver and lung damage, and a lot of internal bleeding...he suspects either a very fast acting virus or a poison or other contaminant in the feed. He's sending out tissue samples to the lab and asking them to rush it.
> 
> Two more of my healthy looking birds were dead when I got home last night. And one of the sick birds died overnight.
> ...


What type/brand of feed do you use?
We use vitamin K for poisoning. Very expensive and don't know if it can be used for birds.
Again, I am so sorry - this is terrible.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry about the new deaths, Karen. This is heartbreaking.

I think vitamin K has to be injected to be effective. It is the antidote to rodenticides, might not work on other poisons. However, would the internal bleeding indicate a rodenticide?

Cynthia


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your continued support and advice.

Also - 
I apologize for not discussing my feelings on this thread. As you can imagine, I am still in shock and preparing for the worst. Just trying to keep on top of what needs to be done. I will grieve when I know for sure it is over.

I don't know how long the lab results will take. But I will let everyone know the outcome. And I appreciate your helpful advice on what to do for the afflicted in the mean time. 

Four of the sick ones are still hanging in there - one even made a very nice, well-formed, healthy poop this morning. I have never been SO happy to see a pigeon poop in my life


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, I have re-read your thread a few times now and the one thing that jumps out at me is the sudden onset of this crisis after you started your guys on a "new bag of feed." I am not a great believer in coincidences and the onset of illness in your birds was so sudden and acute I think the people who suggested poison at the beginning of the thread were close to the mark, as well as Feefo who suggested fungus.

As a possibility I am thinking that this new bag of feed may be contaminated with aflotoxins as my reading on acute aflotoxicosis fits with what you are going through, with the sudden deaths and the symptoms your birds are displaying, it takes very small amounts of this mycotoxin to bring about death or serious illness. Could you ask your vet whether it would be possible for them to test the feed for aflotoxin contamination?

If it is aflotoxicosis, there is no "real" treatment for it other than support and management of infections with antibiotics brought on by a weakened state. What ever it is keep them well flushed and please try the liver support suggestions I made. Also, in aflotoxicosis N-Acetyl-Cysteine has been shown to offer the liver support and detoxification from its effects.

Karyn


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Could you ask your vet whether it would be possible for them to test the feed for aflotoxin contamination?
> 
> Karyn


We did talk about testing the feed and straw, should the necropsy results indicate a toxin. He did say, however, that given the number of contaminants that could have possibly been introduced - it would not be possible to test for all of them. If it comes to that, I'll suggest that aflotoxin is on the list of things to look for. Thank you.

I just came back from checking the loft again and then checked the quarantine again. Thankfully, no more deaths since last night.

Question for anyone who has advice:
I have been giving the quarantined birds the antibiotics that were prescribed by the vet, as well as pedialyte. Since they don't appear to be eating or drinking, I'm tube-medicating all of them. I also started them on a small amount of very thin Kaytee formula. I was hesitant, as an earlier patient appeared to have aspirated on the regurgitated formula...but they need some nutrition.

Approximately how much formula and how much pedialyte should I be giving them? (As it happens, all of the surviving quarantines are Birmingham Rollers - so, fairly small in size.)


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would say like 5 ccs at a time 4 times a day if possible, small amounts frequently untill they can handle more.


----------



## Guest (Jan 21, 2010)

doesnt a little apple sauce help things move thru the system too ?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, I agree with spirit wings, smaller amounts more often. However, instead of the Kaytee I would use a vegetarian based baby formula mix like this one (it has to be soy based as birds can not digest milk based ones) http://www.diapers.com/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?productId=5087 . With a thin mix Kaytee there is not going to be the same nutrition and calories as this will have, plus I know from experience this is very easily digested by our pigeons.

It can be mixed up to the consistency of slightly thick milk, so it is quite thin, but still very calorie dense and provide not only the needed calories, but maintain good hydration as well. I mix it a little different from the directions so I add a little less water to get 1 calorie/cc, instead of 2/3 calorie/cc.

I would alternate the formula with the Pedialyte as often as their crops emptied and not worry about how many times, as you want more than less. If you find after a while this is moving well, I would swich to two consecutive formula feedings, then a Pedialyte and so on. Then if you find things are still going well I would start to up the amout of formula 1cc at a time until I got to 10cc, but do not give more than 8cc at anyone time of the Pedialyte.

I would also substitute one of the Pedialyte tubings with 5cc of aloe juice to which I would add 0.50mg of alpha lipoic acid and roughly 10mg of N-Acetyl-Cysteine http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...cetyl-Cysteine+dose+birds&cd=17&hl=en&ct=clnk . (note: If you do get the aloe vera juice, please get the kind made with the inner gel only, do not get the whole leaf aloe juice as it contains the rind, which contains latex, which can be irritating to delicate digestive tracts).

I hope this helps and good luck,

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If they have plenty of breast muscle, they don't need to eat for a few days if need be. It's pretty easy to kill an acutely sick bird by feeding it.

Pidgey


----------



## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Pidgey said:


> If they have plenty of breast muscle, they don't need to eat for a few days if need be. It's pretty easy to kill an acutely sick bird by feeding it.
> 
> Pidgey


I agree with Pidgey. I would also like to mension that perhaps a little honey in the water would help for a little energy.
Kurps


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, I agree with you as well, if fact in one of my first posts I mentioned the same thing that they would be fine for a few days without food.

The concern I had was that it has been a number of days now and when the body starts to consume itself, as you may well know, it breaks the fatty acids down elevating ketone levels from this process and this is done through the liver. With the liver being in questionable condition, my thinking was that it being inefficient in doing this may hasten a state of ketosis. The carbohydrates in the very small meals would replenish the stores the birds bodies have already been using, helping to avoid putting them in a ketosis state.

I could be off in my thinking, but that was my thought process for thinking about starting to get a little nourishment into them, instead of telling Karen to continue to hold off with any food.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Karyn,


You mentioned your Vet said 'lots of internal bleeding...'


Internal bleeding where?


Lungs?

Intestines?

Stomach?

Brain?

?

If all over...may indeed suggest Warfarin poisoning...if localized to specific Organs, may suggest some fairly narrow Bacterial issues...though Viruses can do this also.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin



If you have Doxycyxline it may help if this is a Haemoraghic Bacteria issue.


Phil
Lv


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks all for your recommendations. 

So...After I gave the sick ones about 2cc of some very thin kaytee formula last night, some of them began regurgitating again. Although it has been a few days, I'm hesitant to try any more feedings now. 

They seem to tolerate the Pedialyte and the oral meds. 
They are now making droppings of the bright green "starvation" variety. Could this mean that their lower GI systems are moving again - or...what? 

Phil - The vet was not too specific about the internal bleeding so I'm guessing he meant it came from multiple sources. I will clarify when I speak to him again today. But he also mentioned rat poison and asked if we used it around the house or loft. (we don't) I did not realize warfarin was also produced by decomposing plant material...maybe in the straw I used as bedding?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> So...After I gave the sick ones about 2cc of some very thin Kaytee formula last night, some of them began regurgitating again.


This is why I mentioned not using the Kaytee and switching to the soy infant formula. I won't go through all the details here, but I had an very ill bird and no matter how thin I would make the Kaytee, he would regurgitate it, but the soy formula would move through him (servere liver issues involved with him).

Hold off for a least another day before trying to feed again (no Kaytee). Kurps suggestion of honey might be worth a try. Honey has 21 calories per teaspoon so mixed 4:1 with water will give you 25cc (.84 cal/cc), try a few ccs' of this and see if it moves, as I feel it is important to get some carbohydrates into them if at all possible.

When you say "some of them began regurgitating again" how many (and how many birds are critcal altogether)? Did you feed them all a little Kaytee and with some they did not regurgitate it?

The bright green is bile, but really should look more very dark green looking you get the brighter green when there are liver issues with a bird. Could you post a photo of the droppings. Also, if any of them that did not regurgitate pass a dropping could you post a photo of theirs as well.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you can also keep them VERY warm, it will help slow down their weight loss. While food is "energy", so is heat, up to the point where it's not too much. Vitamin K tablets can be bought at a health food store and administered--I've done that a couple of times in the past.

Yes, it sounds like the lower GI is still operational. It might be possible to start giving them meds and fluids up the vent like I did with Lazarus that time if it looks like nothing's going down the front end: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=27445

Pidgey

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> This is why I mentioned not using the Kaytee and switching to the soy infant formula


I have found the same problem when I feed Kaytee to some sick birds. When I switched to porridge it was OK.


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

4 birds are in serious condition. I saw two of them regurgitating. I've been giving them fluids orally and they're holding that down just fine.

Regarding the droppings - the solids are actually dark green. The paper towel could be drawing some of the color out of the solid and making it very bright around the edges. I will post photos later. 

Pidgey, thanks for the link to the Lazarus thread. The oral fluids and meds appear to be getting absorbed somehow. But that is a good option to keep in mind. These birds are in the house, so, warmer than outside but not "very" warm. I'll see what I can do to improve that.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

All four birds, while seriously ill, may not be sick to exactly the same degree. With the two birds that did keep down the Kaytee, it may be worthwhile trying them on a small amount of the soy formula. Just to be sure, with these birds how did their crops feel this morning, did everything move through overnight, or could you still feel content in them? If you didn't think to check, by now I am sure you have given them their meds and Pedialyte, has this moved through and their crops are still emptying well? 

If things have moved through, try 2-3cc of the soy formula and monitor them to see how they do. If the formula moves through, follow this with their Pedialyte and when this moves through follow this some formula again, try 4cc. Tomorrow start with 4cc and later try 5cc, always make sure the crop is empty before feeding. Keep it a 5cc at a time for a few days, then we will reassess. Follow each formula feeding with the Pedialyte (on an empty crop). When giving them their meds in the Pedialyte, I would give an extra hour after the crop feels flat and you feel the last tubing has moved through, as we do not want to risk any regurgitation of their meds.

With the other two, try the honey mix, a few ccs' and monitor how they do on this. Honey when mixed even 1:1 with water feels just a thin as water, so a 4:1 mix should be very light and I hope move through them, you could use the Pedialyte instead of water to mix with. Same caution with their Pedialyte and meds, if things move through, add an extra hour to after the crop is empty before giving mix again.

Karyn


----------



## BTut (Oct 18, 2009)

*Karen how are they*

Karen how are your birds doing today ?


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*update*

Thankfully, there were no more deaths today. Every little victory counts.

I tried 2cc thinned soy formula for the four sick birds, and they seemed to tolerate it. I bought Aloe Vera juice (inner gel) and milk thistle, but I could not find any of the other supplements mentioned.

Do I administer the aloe juice full strength? Or thin it down?

And what about the milk thistle? It is in capsule form. The label says 175mg standardized to contain 80% Silymarin. How should that be administered?

I got the report on fecals and crop swabs from the emergency vet. Absolutely inconclusive, but I have the feeling she is not very experienced with avian medicine. I had her fax the results to my regular vet who has more experience with pigeons, and might notice something that she missed. He still has not gotten the full lab report on the necropsy, but expects it tomorrow. 

I was unable to get photographs of the droppings, but will do that later. I put out fresh newsprint instead of paper towels. That should show a more accurate picture.


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm so, so sorry for what you and your pijies are going thru. 

I was only able to skim through alot of the posts, so please forgive me if it was suggested already to have the pijies on heating pads.

My prayers are with you and your pijies.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> Thankfully, there were no more deaths today. Every little victory counts.
> 
> I tried 2cc thinned soy formula for the four sick birds, and they seemed to tolerate it. I bought Aloe Vera juice (inner gel) and milk thistle, but I could not find any of the other supplements mentioned.
> 
> ...


Karen, I am so glad to hear everyone is still hanging in there. Also glad to hear with the formula they kept it down. Please continue with the formula per my last post, it would be good if we can get some nourishment into them that they can tolerate and absorb. Continue to monitor their crop emptying.

With the aloe juice let's try a little less than more, 2cc of aloe + 2cc Pedialyte to this add the dose of silymarin (milk thistle) at 10 mg/kg once a day (3.5mg for a 350gr bird). If they tolerate this well, we may up it to twice a day shortly. With the other two supplements call around to a few local health food stores, I am sure someone will have them.

Karyn


----------



## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

in reading through these threads,,you say throwing up foods/seeds,,and yellow stuff coming out the dead birds mouth,,,it sur sounds like tainted feed/.also your avaian dvm found no diseases,,replace everything/water/food/clean loft...sorry to learn of this tragedy--when it is the feed we-trust/ buy to save lives,,have the feed checked by the dvm perhaps there is recourse...sincerely james waller


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

jameswaller said:


> in reading through these threads,,you say throwing up foods/seeds,,and yellow stuff coming out the dead birds mouth,,,it sur sounds like tainted feed/.also your avaian dvm found no diseases,,replace everything/water/food/clean loft...sorry to learn of this tragedy--when it is the feed we-trust/ buy to save lives,,have the feed checked by the dvm perhaps there is recourse...sincerely james waller


Thank you James.
I am still waiting for the necropsy results. If there is a possibility of contaminated feed, I will bring in a sample for testing.


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*update: 3 day delay*

Well, I just spoke with the vet's receptionist. A fax came from the necropsy lab saying to expect a _3 day delay_ in processing the results. Assuming that's 3 business days, I am not likely to hear anything until Wednesday next week.

I could not get much information, but it sounds like the delay is not a general backlog, but rather specific to my case. Also - there was no preliminary report.

_ALL _I want to know right now is whether this is a virus and therefore potentially not contained yet, or a toxin, in which case it has been contained because I've removed all potential sources. I can't even express how frustrating this is. I can't sleep - wondering if there's something else I should (or should not) be doing to protect my surviving babies or to heal my sick ones...

Anyway - thanks to everyone for your support and advice. I will continue what I've been doing and hope for the best. Will be sure to keep PT posted of any developments.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

amoonswirl said:


> Well, I just spoke with the vet's receptionist. A fax came from the necropsy lab saying to expect a _3 day delay_ in processing the results. Assuming that's 3 business days, I am not likely to hear anything until Wednesday next week.
> 
> I could not get much information, but it sounds like the delay is not a general backlog, but rather specific to my case. Also - there was no preliminary report.
> 
> ...


I mentioned this at work to one of the vets (he doesn't do birds, but he use to be in research), He immediately said "aflatoxins" and most likely in the feed not the straw. I guess it's quite common in corn?
I think about you everyday and how awful this situation is.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> I mentioned this at work to one of the vets (he doesn't do birds, but he use to be in research), He immediately said "aflatoxins" and most likely in the feed not the straw. I guess it's quite common in corn?
> *I think about you everyday and how awful this situation is*.


I do too....


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Your doing real good all you have to do now is wait for the report-good or bad. They need to let things "grow" for awhile to test it to see if it is a fungus or a food problem and then they can tell you exactly how to treat it...You doing the best you can don't be overly hard on yourself. I have an appointment next week too with a Vet to see about my Pigeon Mr. AL"s wing condition (Has a really large tumor on it ) and I never noticed it before now and we will decide on what course to take on Tuesday--so I will be thinking about your report coming in--hoping it is good news. Sorry for the lost of your pigeons and keep plugging....c.hert


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

In his book "Fit to Win" Dr Wym Peters states:

_"Aflatoxin on grain can be detected by using an ultraviolet light to screen samples of the feed, which will fluoresce bright yellow if positive, though fluorescence may occur for other reasons. Positive samples must be submitted to a laboratory for chemical and quantitative analysis to confirm the prescence of toxin and the degree of contamination"_

I have checked out ultraviolet lights on Ebay, the ones used to detect bank note forgeries are fairly cheap, might be a good idea to get one and check the grain out for an early indication.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's a good idea. Where this seems to be such a common thing in grain, makes me think about buying one. Thanks.


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*another update*

Thanks for the tip on the Alfatoxins Msfreebird, and the UV light Feefo. I may know someone who has a UV light I could borrow.

The vet called the lab on my behalf late yesterday, and got a little more information. They are now leaning toward an infection, rather than a toxin. But they must do more tests to determine exactly what is going on. This development does not make me too happy, but at least we are closer to knowing the cause. My vet may get bits and pieces of information over the next few days, which he said he'd pass along to me. 

On a brighter note, I had put some pellets in with the sick birds, which they had been ignoring. This morning when I was preparing to give them their meds, I noticed that some of the food had been eaten. So I put in some more, shook it around, and lo & behold - they all started to eat on their own! 

I'm going to keep a very close watch, but I think that their interest in food is a good sign. Also, the males & females have started making woo-ing noises and bowing toward each other. Another healthy sign!

Thanks all for your thoughts & prayers! I really appreciate it!


----------



## BTut (Oct 18, 2009)

Great news that they are acting better see we can do good things on P.t. Support 

Bill T


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> On a brighter note, I had put some pellets in with the sick birds, which they had been ignoring. This morning when I was preparing to give them their meds, I noticed that some of the food had been eaten. So I put in some more, shook it around, and lo & behold - they all started to eat on their own!


Karen, please keep a close eye on starting them back on more solid food. Their interest is a very good sign and the pellets are better than moving right to seeds, but I can speak from experience that them wanting to eat does not mean that they will be able to move more solid food food through. 

Let's do hope they are up to more solid food though, I would not give them free access to full dish amounts, but make sure they prove to you that small amounts, say 1/4 teaspoon at a time, does not lock them up and I would continue with the formula. Take slow steps in moving them back, slowly increasing solid food amounts as you are sure they are processing it well, as we do not want any set backs.

I do hope they come to some kind of conclusion sooner, rather than later, on just what the cause of their illness is.

Karyn


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Quick update - they all seem to be doing well on the pellets and I'm cutting back on formula. They're full of restless energy now - not like before when they sat miserable and puffy in their cages. Thanks to everyone on PT, I think their chances for survival are much better now. 

Not so great news though - I found another bird in the loft with respiratory symptoms. He's breathing a little easier after meds and fluids, but I'm hoping that this does not mean the illness is continuing to spread. He's had respiratory issues on & off for awhile, so hoping this was just triggered by stress.

Still no definitive word from the vet.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, I am glad to hear their energy is up, it sounds like they are making good progress back from the dangerous place they were at, please continue as you are doing.

For now, I guess you will have to continue to assume it very well could be some sort of pathogen, along with the possibility that it is aflotoxins. Just do as you have been doing, keeping things scrupulously clean and isolate, support and treat those showing signs of illness until your vet makes a final determination.

Karyn


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Just do as you have been doing, *keeping things scrupulously clean* and isolate, support and treat those showing signs of illness until your vet makes a final determination.
> 
> Karyn


One good thing about removing all of the bedding - I can scrape and disinfect everything now in 15 minutes or less, whereas it used to take me an hour or more (and several very full trash bags.) And with the bare floor, I can also monitor their droppings each morning.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's better without the bedding on the floor. You're right, faster and cleaner to scrape, and monitor the droppings. They also hold a lot of dust if left there for a while. Not good.


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*paramyxovirus*

The final diagnosis is paramyxovirus (PMV)

I am very angry with myself because this tragedy was due to poor management on my part, and could have been prevented.

I have never used PMV vaccinations, because my birds are not usually exposed to outsiders. How I wish now that I had. I also usually quarantine any new birds for 4 weeks minimum. But this time I put a new rescue in my loft after just 10 days. She looked healthy, but now I believe she may be a silent carrier of PMV. How I wish I had kept her inside longer. 

(In my defense, our elderly cat was hospitalized with renal failure, and we've had our hands full keeping after her treatments since she came home...I felt overwhelmed and figured this bird was ok to put out with the others. It _looked_ healthy.)

So...what I thought would save me a little trouble ended up being much more trouble than I bargained for. *Don't let this happen to you.* Enforce quarantine strictly. And vaccinate, even if you think it is not necessary. 

I'm sick over this...every one of those birds was one of my babies, and I failed them by cutting corners.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, PMV really, wow I am kind of shocked, I am not a PMV expert by any means, but I did not recognize PMV in much of the symptoms, or even their progess back to health. I re-read the thread and I don't think anyone else did as well. Are they sure, could PMV be a co-infection brought on by something else?

I hope Feefo sees this, as she might be able to offer some insight to just what might be going on.

All our hearts ache with yours, please don't blame yourself for this.

Karen, what is the history of the bird that the necropsy was done on?

Karyn


----------



## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Karen, PMV really, wow I am kind of shocked, I am not a PMV expert by any means, but I did not recognize PMV in much of the symptoms, or even their progess back to health. I re-read the thread and I don't think anyone else did as well. Are they sure, could PMV be a co-infection brought on by something else?
> 
> I hope Feefo sees this, as she might br able to offer some insight to just what might be going on.
> 
> ...


I'm shocked also,and personally would disagree with the diagnosis. All the symptoms and all the birds dying at the same time,just doesn't sound right to me. But I'm not there and I'm not a lab tech or a vet. So sorry for your loss.
Kurps


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I did not suspect PMV either. Adenovirus type II maybe. But I have to trust the lab results. I have nothing else to go on.

As for the history of the necropsied bird...I left two boxes of dead birds with the receptionist at the vet and I have no idea which one they used for the procedure. It was a horrible experience and the receptionist was cold to say the least...I am glad I'd said my goodbyes to each of them before leaving them there. 

I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I would have never though they had pmv (the virus) because usually there is some warning (star gazing) (so to speak) --usually normal looking droppings---and no throwing up--. Sometimes poisoning from something (seed, mold, paint, especially lead, rat poison etc etc...can cause the same symptoms as pmv--if it is acquired gradually. I would ask this vet for a conference to see how he got this diagnosis---you are paying for this--if you feel more comfortable and have extra money which you don"t ask him about the cost of a conference because you are really having trouble with this diagnosis.
Good exotic vets are hard to find and sometimes you have to go through a bunch of not so good ones to get to one you can really trust. I have three if them and when I get disgusted with one---then I seek help from another---and thats why I am always poor and eating noodles---so I hope all the animals just chill for now...Sorry about your loss and you did just wonderful-- do not blame yourself--you tried real hard and did good. c.hert


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> As for the history of the necropsied bird...I left two boxes of dead birds with the receptionist at the vet and I have no idea which one they used for the procedure. It was a horrible experience and the receptionist was cold to say the least...I am glad I'd said my goodbyes to each of them before leaving them there.


I guess by my question what I am getting at is, since you seem to have rescues mixed in with fancier breeds, is the chance the bird necropsied was asymptomatic of a past PMV infection, and if this was so, that PMV was not the cause of all these deaths, but was picked up on post-mortem in this particular bird.

I am so sorry you are having to go through all of this. 

Karyn


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Dobato said:


> I guess by my question what I am getting at is, since you seem to have rescues mixed in with fancier breeds, is the chance the bird necropsied was an asymptomatic carrier of PMV and if this was so, that PMV was not the cause of all these deaths, but was picked up on post-mortem in this particular bird.
> 
> I am so sorry you are having to go through all of this.
> 
> Karyn


A lot of my birds are/were rescues - some of them fancier breeds found in backyards and parking lots. That is a good point. Will see if he can tell me which bird was tested.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dobato said:


> asymptomatic of a past PMV infection


Sorry, got my wording a little wrong, meant to say the above, not a carrier.

Karyn


----------



## Guest (Jan 27, 2010)

personally I dont think this was caused by any of your birds that you have had for a long period of time or it would have cropped up a long time ago .. but if you added any new birds a short time ago say within weeks this could have been the starting point which I dont think you have done.. I myself think this was a feed issue as it coinsides with such events ... but thats just my opinion on this sad event that devistated your loft at this time .. we all know you take great care of your birds as we have seen from day one of you joining this site so to me I think this was something that was totally conceived without warning and I am so sorry for your loss but hope all will go well from this point onwards and I will be following your thread in hopes that this will have ended cuz I hate to see such things happen to such wonderful pigeon people .


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I have to agree with everybody else. I don't think PMV is the cause of the sudden deaths. Too fast, too quick, no symptoms, no warnings. Just doesn't make any sense.
I don't think YOU did anything wrong. Quarantining 7, 10, 14, 30 even 60 days wouldn't matter if a bird is a "carrier" and not showing any symptoms. I have a mollucan cockatoo that survived polyoma virus as a baby. She is 15 years old now - and she is a "carrier" of the virus. I can never have another psitisine(sp) bird in the house with her. I have her blood tested every couple years - and she still sheds the virus! But she is healthy 
I think Dobato hit the nail on the head!
And I still think this horrible tragedy was caused by a contaminant.
When I was reading about aflatoxins, it said that "a whole bag of feed will not usually be affected, it can be localized in a small area of the feed by contaminated corn, and not completely spread though the feed". THAT is scary! After reading that, now when I feed my birds, I find myself looking for corn that doesn't look "right".


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am shocked, like the others I can only say that that none of the symptoms raised any "PMV alert" and this disease is always on my mind and I because I have had so many cases.

There are some strains of PPMV that cause high mortality , but mortality is usually very low...5-10%. It also works its way through the loft slowly, which gives the loft owner a chance to vaccinate pigeons that are not showing symptoms.

How long before the sickness started was the "suspect" introduced to the loft? Was the "suspect" among the first to die? I agree that you need to ask more about the pigeon tested and exactly what the tests showed in terms of levels etc (which maybe Pidgey can interpret for us). 



> Quarantining 7, 10, 14, 30 even 60 days wouldn't matter if a bird is a "carrier" and not showing any symptoms.


Unlike some other viruses (including pigeon herpesvirus) Pigeon Paramyxovirus is not known to persist as a latent infection in the host, and they do not become carriers for life. According to my veterinary manual the pigeon sheds the virus for 6 weeks from infection, but as the incubation period can last several weeks I start the 6 weeks "countdown" from the day I first notice the symptoms of disease to be on the safe side, and then I had extra weeks quarantine because they can carry the virus on their feathers for a while.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

See if you can find out which strain.

Pidgey


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I'll see what else I can find out about the PMV strain, and the individual bird the vet tested. He told me he's going to do some further investigation - talk to a few specialists he knows.

The "suspect" never showed any signs of disease, and still looks fine. I've quarantined her, even though I am not 100% sure she is the host, and even though she does not look or act sick in the least. 

A few questions...
When will it be safe to vaccinate the flock for PMV?
And will it ever be safe to introduce the silent carrier back into the loft? (Is there a test I can order to see if she is the culprit?)


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> I guess by my question what I am getting at is, since you seem to have rescues mixed in with fancier breeds, is the chance the bird necropsied was asymptomatic of a past PMV infection, and if this was so, that PMV was not the cause of all these deaths, but was picked up on post-mortem in this particular bird.
> 
> I am so sorry you are having to go through all of this.
> 
> Karyn


I have to agree also!! when you said pmv what Dobato has said was the first thing I was thinking too, it did show up, but with someone that has recoverd. some strains can kill within days but from what I read that is EXTREMELY rare. incubation 8 to 12 weeks after which symptoms appear. during that is when they are infectious, and symtoms are actually the onset of recovery which can take 8 to 14 weeks. plus perhaps some further convalescenc. immunity can be passed to from immune parents to nestlings, however it only last for about 3 weeks and so then the youngsters are vaccinated at 21-28 days old. and even with the vaccs, it takes 14 days for it to become effective, immunity is not immediate and also builds and wanes over a period of ten months. also vaccination is ineffective against the disease once the pigeon is in the stages of incubation of the virus. 
Recoverd pigeons do not remain as carriers of the present pigeon related strain of pmv, however viruses mutate so all information may be subject to revision in the future. not to mention the symptoms you described were missing alot of other symtoms of pmv... so there could be something else and this pmv only showed because the one had had it in the past.....I would want more tissue tested and or perhaps fecals tested and the feed too...still


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Feefo said:


> I am shocked, like the others I can only say that that none of the symptoms raised any "PMV alert" and this disease is always on my mind and I because I have had so many cases.
> 
> There are some strains of PPMV that cause high mortality , but mortality is usually very low...5-10%. It also works its way through the loft slowly, which gives the loft owner a chance to vaccinate pigeons that are not showing symptoms.
> 
> ...


I have to agree, there are a lot of questions that need answering, in regards to the PMV bird in question and the test results.



I have a PMV rescue in the loft-that I never knew even had it, who was previously rescued by a rehabber...until a few months ago, he began to display typical PMV nervous issues possibly brought on by stress. He has more then shed the virus months/even years ago. Never diagnosed, just going by symptoms. He responded well to supportive care and is fine within a week, but more importantly no other bird got sick.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> And will it ever be safe to introduce the silent carrier back into the loft? (Is there a test I can order to see if she is the culprit?)


Before making any decisions you would have to establish whether she is a silent carrier and if so which virus is most likely....because even taking mutations into account, it is extremely unlikely that she is a silent carrier of PMV. I have only read of one paramixovirus that persists, and that is one that affects some sort of mice, I think in Africa. None of our human paramyxoviruses (mumps, measles) which have been around for years have mutated to become latent or persistent.



> until a few months ago, he began to display typical PMV nervous issues possibly brought on by stress.


Every now and then I see a pigeon that I have classified as "normal" show PMV symptoms...I go into an immediate panic, but in every case it turns out to be a PMV survivor. It seems to happen with hens much more often than cocks, and I wonder if the stress of leg laying triggers it in them.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I don't know if I am right on this --you have to check--but I think the virus does not have carriers after the bird gets well --what I believe is the carriers left over is the Paratyphoid bacteria sickness not the pmv--but I am not sure of this---I have one wild bird recuperating now and I am going to put in loft when it gets well--takes a long time to get well 4- 6 weeks--this bird will not be a carrier--its only the parathyphoid sickness but you really will have to check---I still don't agree with the diagnosis but I am not there to actually see those pigeons of yours and not one time where they moving necks, washing with no washing or star gazing that you mentioned so I just can't believe the diagnosis and I am sorry for your loss...c.hert


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Ok, I am going to do some further investigation into exactly what tests were run and on which bird, what PMV strain, etc. 

BTW, neither of the fecals or crop swabs I had done (by 2 different vets) showed anything unusual. But again - not sure what they tested for aside from bacterial growth.

None of these birds have displayed the stargazing behavior. However, a few of them did stretch their necks upward and leaned their chests against the sides of their cages for support as they were dying. I thought they were gasping for breath. (it was horrible to watch and not be able to do anything for them)


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

They were having convulsations before death and its ashame that you had to see that but thats how birds die...c.hert


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Feefo said:


> Every now and then I see a pigeon that I have classified as "normal" show PMV symptoms...I go into an immediate panic, but in every case it turns out to be a PMV survivor. It seems to happen with hens much more often than cocks, and I wonder if the stress of leg laying triggers it in them.


Cynthia,

That is absolutelypossible. When they are in "egg mode" they are using up their calcium for the egg, and calcium is extremely important for support of the nervous system, as is B complex....and when they are stressed from egg laying they burn up all their B vitamins, another very important support for nerves.

Try giving them a dose of B's and calcium when they start setting in their nest and see if there are any more recurrences.

Sorry to change the subject from this very serious situation here, not trying to do that.
Karen I am so sorry for what you have been thru.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Karen,

Not all bacteria culture well in the same media. And any swab taken on a mucus membrane (crop, vent, choanal, nostrils... ) is going to have literally thousands of different species of bacteria. That's why a lot of testing is... really pretty inconclusive. And never mind the problem of polymicrobial infections (a buncha' things at once).

In a necropsy, the lab technician or vet is going to have to literally carve up several of the organs looking for signs of chronic or acute inflammatory or histopathological changes signalling what caused the death. It's just not necessarily as easy as one might think as there are too many symptoms that can have been caused by a plethora of different things, a few of which we've already covered.

We might have taken the blood from a dying bird and spun it down (centrifuge) to see if there was a hemolytic process going on; we might have looked very closely at a fresh wet-mount of a crop swab to see if there were any fast-moving bacilli (most vets wouldn't even know why you'd want to do that); we might have taken a dying bird's body temperature; we should have charted the respiration rates of a few of them; ...and about a thousand other things to do. It's the kind of stuff that you almost have to know to do in advance, though. Having something like this coming out of the blue is always tough (obviously) and if it was the feed or the hay, the damage was done all too quickly.

Me, I wouldn't rule anything out yet--it could just as easily have been a bad Salmonella or E. coli as anything else and you're probably never going to know. You can certainly start vaccinating your loft religiously for Salmonella and PMV and possibly never run into this again but it's impossible to say. As much as we'd like to think vets have all the answers, sometimes there aren't any definite answers to be had.

Pidgey


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> As much as we'd like to think vets have all the answers, sometimes there aren't any definite answers to be had.
> 
> Pidgey



Thanks Pidgey. I know I may never find the answer for what happened. It's just hard to accept the "not knowing" part. 

I requested copies of the lab's paperwork. Maybe that will have more clues, and maybe not.


----------



## Guest (Jan 28, 2010)

amoonswirl said:


> Thanks Pidgey. I know I may never find the answer for what happened. It's just hard to accept the "not knowing" part.
> 
> I requested copies of the lab's paperwork. Maybe that will have more clues, and maybe not.


its true I have worked for vets for over 20 years and most I have come across in practice havent a real clue whats going on when it comes to birds and the few that I have come to know that are bird specialist always blame things on a birds diet and claim if they conform to what they sell you shouldnt have as many problems which is truely sad .. the rest just rea dit straight out a book for their diagnosis which we all can do on our own minus the vet costs .


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> Thanks Pidgey. I know I may never find the answer for what happened. It's just hard to accept the "not knowing" part.
> 
> I requested copies of the lab's paperwork. Maybe that will have more clues, and maybe not.


The not knowing part would be very hard for me as well. My question would be, since you have survivors of the illness are there any tests that can be still run on them, plus perhaps even including your "silent" carrier, to determine if they have had a very recent PPMV infection?

Karyn


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> its true I have worked for vets for over 20 years and most I have come across in practice havent a real clue whats going on when it comes to birds and the few that I have come to know that are bird specialist always blame things on a birds diet and claim if they conform to what they sell you shouldnt have as many problems which is truely sad .. the rest just rea dit straight out a book for their diagnosis which we all can do on our own minus the vet costs .


EXACTLY!!!!!!!!
I've worked at 2 hospitals in the past 38 years (since I was 16) but under many different Dr's. Also filled in on weekends at the emergency clinic and know most of the clinics in the area. 
Sooo sad - they just don't know birds!
Even the labs are not really knowledgeable about birds.
The last sick bird I had, I took over to the area "avian and exotic" hospital. When I was telling the Dr. the symptoms, I also told her I was suspecting "chronic paratyphoid". Her response was "I'm not familiar with that"!! 
What avian vet is NOT familiar with salmonella?!


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

This vet is one of two avian specialists I trust. The local racing club guys bring their pigeons to him, and he seems to know a lot more about birds and pigeons than most of the so called "avian specialists" I have seen. 

In fact, he once went to bat for a client whose neighbor was rallying to ban pigeons in their town. He showed up at town hall with multiple references to prove that pigeons are less of a public health threat than cats & dogs. They proved their case and no ban was instated. 

As far as the test for recent PPMV infection in live birds - we did talk about that initially. He told me that there is no commercially available test, but that there may be one that he'd be allowed to use under the circumstances. 

However, I am now having second thoughts about pursuing this any further. I've been advised that PMV is a reportable disease in all 50 states, and that if this case is reported, all of my surviving birds would legally have to be destroyed. Does anyone know if this is true? And if so, how likely would it be that anyone would enforce it? That was my worst fear when all of this started.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I don"t know anything about that I would just drop it at this point and move on...c.hert


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> However, I am now having second thoughts about pursuing this any further. I've been advised that PMV is a reportable disease in all 50 states, and that if this case is reported, all of my surviving birds would legally have to be destroyed. Does anyone know if this is true? And if so, how likely would it be that anyone would enforce it? That was my worst fear when all of this started.


Karen, like I say, I learn something new here all the time, I did not know this. Under these circumstances, I agree, it may be best to leave it alone if this is indeed true, as it would turn heart break into an unspeakable tragedy.

How are the survivors doing?

Karyn


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Karen, like I say, I learn something new here all the time, I did not know this. Under these circumstances, I agree, it may be best to leave it alone if this is indeed true, as it would turn heart break into an speakable tragedy.
> 
> How are the survivors doing?
> 
> Karyn


Most of the survivors look great, thankfully.
The sick ones are hanging in there, looking better for the most part. One of them is having a relapse though. He's been puffy and lethargic since yesterday, and droppings turned from normal color back to dark green. I put him back on formula to see if that helps. Everyone else is doing fine on pellets.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I wrote you on a new thread because for some reason it would not take my addition on this thread yesterday and it is under Dusty lofts in general discussions--start from the first one where I am mentioning you...c.hert


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> However, I am now having second thoughts about pursuing this any further. I've been advised that PMV is a reportable disease in all 50 states, and that if this case is reported, all of my surviving birds would legally have to be destroyed. Does anyone know if this is true? And if so, how likely would it be that anyone would enforce it? That was my worst fear when all of this started.


As you vet is already aware of the situation he is the best person to advise you. 

Here in the UK PMV is also a notifiable disease because Pigeon PMV can cause Newcastle Disease in poultry. The government department responsible for the control of outbreaks has all the information on the control measures that they will take if an outbreak is reported on its website. You might find the same applies where you are.

You will have to keep all those affected isolated from unaffected pigeons for at least 6 weeks, even if you have all the unaffected ones innoculated because sometimes the vaccination doesn't provide complete protection. Better to play it safe.


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I am just now catching up with this thread. I can most definitely empathize with what you have been going through as I had a very similar thing that began last year in March. I'll comment on a couple of things. The symptoms do not sound like a PMV outbreak. And as far as I know, pigeon PMV is not the same virus as NewCastle, but is in the same family. I've got PMV survivors and my understanding is that once a bird has had PMV, or been vaccinated for PMV they will test positive for it. I also have not heard of a silent carrier for PMV.

My birds showed very similar symptoms as you describe. It took two necropsies and a very determined pathologist before the culprit was identified. It was salmonella, and that bacteria can be spread by a silent carrier. It is why it is called paratyphoid. Even though I had given my birds an antibiotic, it wasn't until a culture and sensitivity was done that the right medication could be prescribed. As it turned out there were only two medications that this particular strain of salmonella were sensitive to. After nearly a year, I have a healthy loft again, but must be constantly on guard for anything that might indicate salmonella. One of my lofts took three courses of medication to eradicate it.

It sounds like your surviving birds are on the mend. I'm really glad that the worst appears to be over and am so sorry you have had to got through this. It is heartbreaking. Please don't blame yourself. There was no way you knew. Chances are that the new bird wasn't the carrier after all and it was something dormant that just arose. I'm holding good thoughts that from here on your birds will continue to regain their health.

Margaret


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Karen,

I'm so glad that the survivors are doing OK and am so very sorry for your losses. I don't think PMV (paramyxovirus) is reportable here in the US. Who told you that? If it was Exotic Newcastle Disease .. that's another story .. 

PMV CAN be tested for .. requires a sizeable blood sample that has to be prepared correctly BUT it can be done .. been there and done that.

(I've edited this small post about 10 times .. not having a good night here)

Terry


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Margarret said:


> My birds showed very similar symptoms as you describe. It took two necropsies and a very determined pathologist before the culprit was identified. It was salmonella, and that bacteria can be spread by a silent carrier. It is why it is called paratyphoid. Even though I had given my birds an antibiotic, it wasn't until a culture and sensitivity was done that the right medication could be prescribed. As it turned out there were only two medications that this particular strain of salmonella were sensitive to. After nearly a year, I have a healthy loft again, but must be constantly on guard for anything that might indicate salmonella. One of my lofts took three courses of medication to eradicate it.


Margaret, thanks for posting this information, out of curiosity could you tell us what two medications that particular strain of salmonella were sensitive to?

Karyn


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Margaret, can you find out what strain that was? 

I have been trying to do some research into virulent strains of paratyphoid, and found a reference to an outbreak (in canaries in sevaral locations inTeheran) that was caused by contaminated feedstuff, presumably by rodents, before sale.

Another site lists the following as sources of paratyhoid infection:



> The infection of adult of adult or growing stock occurs in three main ways;
> 
> Contamination of food at source; proprietory egg food is a potential danger.
> Contamination of food or water by rodents or wild birds in the aviary or store.
> Contact with a newly-acquired infected bird.


http://www.mumtazticloft.com/a_BacterialInfections.asp

So the food cannot be excluded as a source of the outbreak.


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks Margaret, and I am sorry that you had to go through this too. 



Margarret said:


> I've got PMV survivors and my understanding is that once a bird has had PMV, or been vaccinated for PMV they will test positive for it. I also have not heard of a silent carrier for PMV.


I didn't realize they'd test positive if they'd been vaccinated. Since I don't know where a lot of these birds came from, some of them may have been vaccinated or had prior exposure. I still don't know which bird they used for the tests. And a lot of us seem to agree that the symptoms don't look like PMV.



Margarret said:


> Even though I had given my birds an antibiotic, it wasn't until a culture and sensitivity was done that the right medication could be prescribed.


Was the culture and sensitivity done on fecals? Or tissues from the necropsied birds? I'm not familiar with that procedure.




Margarret said:


> Chances are that the new bird wasn't the carrier after all and it was something dormant that just arose. I'm holding good thoughts that from here on your birds will continue to regain their health.
> 
> Margaret


If the new bird is the carrier, will it ever be safe to put her in the loft? And do you know if there's a test for paratyphoid carriers? My birds do seem to be on the mend, but I want to make sure that if this one bird is a danger to the rest, that I keep her separate somehow. I couldn't bear to go through this again.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> If the new bird is the carrier, will it ever be safe to put her in the loft? And do you know if there's a test for paratyphoid carriers? My birds do seem to be on the mend, but I want to make sure that if this one bird is a danger to the rest, that I keep her separate somehow. I couldn't bear to go through this again.


Karen, I had a look and it seems that Baytril can cure a chronic carrier state in pigeons, the treatment takes 10 days. Here are the links, stated in the first and confirmed in the second. The second link states a treatment time of 10-14 days, myself, I would lean towards doing the few extra days.

http://www.nfpa.co.za/drcorner/70 Paratyphoid revisited _3_.pdf
http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/if_article_healthy_pigeons.html

While culture tests can be run on fecals, I could not seem to nail down anything definitive, as it seems with a chronic carrier they shed intermittently so tests may not be conclusive on them. However, there is a PCR test available for salmonella (polymerase chain reaction), your vet should be able to fill you in on this.

Although we are not sure yet just what the cause all of this is, I would consider treating your "silent" one for the 10-14 days, one to cure her if she is indeed infected and two, most importantly, by treating her it will to allow you to feel comfortable in your mind for her to mix in with the others again, and I am sure she would appreciate this as well.

I hope this helps a bit,

Karyn


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Karen, I had a look and it seems that Baytril can cure a chronic carrier state in pigeons, the treatment takes 10 days. Here are the links, stated in the first and confirmed in the second. The second link states a treatment time of 10-14 days, myself, I would lean towards doing the few extra days.
> 
> I hope this helps a bit,
> 
> Karyn


That's good to know.

Karyn & all,
Is it possible anymore to buy Baytril without a vet's prescription? The major suppliers all seem to have discontinued it and I've heard it has been outlawed for commercial use. 

Or - is there a good substitute?


----------



## Guest (Jan 29, 2010)

amoonswirl said:


> That's good to know.
> 
> Karyn & all,
> Is it possible anymore to buy Baytril without a vet's prescription? The major suppliers all seem to have discontinued it and I've heard it has been outlawed for commercial use.
> ...


here is some for sale ,I wouldnt buy a pigeon from this site but Enrofloxacina I would if I needed it ,unless you can find it anywhere else 
http://www.pigeons4sale.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=Auc&item=1264964377


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karen, here is another option for you. Superflyer mentioned he purchsed some from here, so I found a link for you.

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

Here is another for tablet form:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

From Global, contains Norfloxacin, closely related to Baytril (go to Salmonella Tabs on the page):

http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=4

Karyn


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Baytril for ten days is supposed to eliminate the chronic carrier state of slamonella/paratyphoid.


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Hi Karen, 

I'll try to reply to the questions here. Sorry I'm so late getting back to this thread. Life gets in the way sometimes.



Was the culture and sensitivity done on fecals? Or tissues from the necropsied birds? I'm not familiar with that procedure.


The C&S was done on tissues from the necropsied birds. There was nothing isolated on the first bird, even though there were massive changes in the lungs, liver etc. I got the birds to them within a couple of hours after death and prepped them immediately after they had expired.

the new bird is the carrier, will it ever be safe to put her in the loft? And do you know if there's a test for paratyphoid carriers? My birds do seem to be on the mend, but I want to make sure that if this one bird is a danger to the rest, that I keep her separate somehow. I couldn't bear to go through this again.[/QUOTE]

It is extremely hard to identify a paratyphoid carrier. Almost impossible actually, because the birds don't shed the bacteria all the time. Once paratyphoid is in the loft, you just have to medicate everyone and hope you got it all. At the first sign of symptoms, medicate again. You could give this bird a round of medication and then put her back. The whole loft has already been exposed and any one of them now could crop up with symptoms. Apparently paratyphoid is present in many birds. It isn't known what makes it flare up to the point that it is killing the birds.

Margaret


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Margaret, thanks for posting this information, out of curiosity could you tell us what two medications that particular strain of salmonella were sensitive to?
> 
> Karyn


I only know one of them. Unfortunately I did not get the Culture and sensitivity report. My vet did and went over it with me. The one he chose to use was sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim oral suspension. 200 mg./ 40 mg per 5 ml. I mix 1 1/2 teaspoons in one liter of water. This is flock treatment. It is given 10 to 14 days. It did knock it out, but symptoms returned. I had to treat one loft twice and the other one three times before done. The vet said this is a good medication because it has much better tissue saturation than the other and is much easier on the birds. It is also a very old medication, not used much any more, so the possibility of having a resistant bacteria is lessened. Things seem good in my loft now and have a pair raising squeakers, that lost their first round to this last year.

Margaret


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Baytril for ten days is supposed to eliminate the chronic carrier state of slamonella/paratyphoid.


If that strain of salmonela is sensitive to it, it will. Baytril was the first thing I used when my birds got ill. It didn't touch this strain of paratyphoid. There are many strains out there now that have become resistant to Baytril.

Margaret


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Margarret said:


> If that strain of salmonela is sensitive to it, it will. Baytril was the first thing I used when my birds got ill. It didn't touch this strain of paratyphoid. There are many strains out there now that have become resistant to Baytril.
> 
> Margaret


Thank you for the information.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Maybe I am wrong in reading some of this information but on one side of it you are talking about PMV and on the other notes you are talking about Paratyphoid which is Salmonellosis but these are two very different sicknesses: The first one is Paramyxovirus which stands for PMV and no antibiotics can help because it is a virus but you can cure it in 4 to 6 weeks with support feeding and fluids--so birds retain slight side effects from having it but in time these might go away... The second one is a bacteria infection called Paratyphoid which is Salmonellosis----no pmv initials attached to this one.....and this one can have a silent carrier , this one can be treated by Baytril which is a antibiotic that is hard on the liver but it treats Paratyphoid----most birds die ---of this bacteria infection-----I know you people know the difference but did you get the pmv mixed up using both infections when you meant to say the other one--I"m not sure...c.herts...


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

c.hert...they know they are 2 different diseases and they understand the differences between them.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

This thread is so long I guess it depends on what you were talking about at that time--I guess I read it wrong----carry on----but if anyone is mixed up with the two--now maybe it is better understood---two different sicknesses--one a virus and the other a bacterial sickness both having the same symptoms but there are slight differences with experience you can tell the difference and I could tell you some of the differences to look for but I am sure you know these already---sorry for the disruption...c.hert


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Margaret, Thank you very much for your replies to our questions.
I started the whole flock on baytril this week, and will continue for 10-14 days. Hoping that wipes it out, but if I do see any symptoms again I will continue to pursue this aggressively with the vet.

And c.hert,
This thread did get confusing. At first I had no idea what was going on.
And it was very difficult to wait for the lab results to come in, while my birds were suffering or at risk...not knowing what was the cause.

Although the vet diagnosed PMV - the viral sickness for which no antibiotics would be helpful - I (and others) now believe the diagnosis may be wrong. Because the symptoms of these birds were more like Paratyphoid than PMV.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Amoonswirl thats most likely where I got confused--trying to keep up with this thread--but I just wanted to make sure we are all on the same track here--a very long thread this one and Margaret seems very knowledgeable and I really didn't know about the different strains that Baytril won"t touch---interesting indeed--..and also once they have it they all test positive for it----these two points when I get time I hope to do some research on---when I get time........Thanks c.hert


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Salmonella is a really nasty pathogen. The other thing to remember is that it can infect humans as well. So if it is suspected, using extra precautions in the loft is a really good idea. There is no way to really completely disinfect a loft, but washing it down with 10% bleach is a good idea once treatment is started. Salmonella bacteria can live quite a long while in the environment. I scrubbed my loft and nest boxes, then put out all new nests and liners to decrease the possibility of reinfection. I also used one pair of shoes in the loft, which I left at the door so I wouldn't track contamination between lofts or into the house where I have the infirmary for isolation. Did constant handwashing even between cages of the isolated birds. I think with the general overuse of antibiotics, we are now seeing strains of bacteria that are harder and harder to treat. The other problem with Salmonella is that it can present with very different symptoms depending on which organs it localizes in. The most common is gastro-intestinal, but it can also look like a respiratory disease, mimic PMV if it gets into the nervous system and brain, or show symptoms of liver damage when it invades the liver. It is a good idea, once the course of antibiotics are done to give the birds several days of a good probiotic to help their GI tracts get back to normal.

M.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Sulfamethoxazole w/TMP' is potentially a good Antibiotic Medicine to try for otherwise resistent to the usual Baytryl/Cipro/Enrofloxacyn strains of Salmonella/Paratyphoid...if this has not been already mentioned.


Any Vet can call in a perscription to one's local Pharmacy, and, the Medicine is not expensive.


Again though, whether or not a presumed primary pathogen is at play, treating impirically for any or all issues can remain crucial.


Pigeons or other Birds can very easily acquire additional illnesses ( Candida, Canker, or any number of bacterial, viral, enteric or who-knows) which can or do kill them, when the primary illness alone may not - on it's own - have done them in.


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks Margaret & Phil. If the Baytril doesn't wipe it out, I'll look into the other option.

Margaret - since this whole thing started, I've been a sanitization freak. I scrape at least 1x per day and have a spray bottle of 10% bleach handy for sanitizing perches, nest boxes, floor, and feed/water dishes. I also have one pair of boots that I wear in the loft only. I wear disposable vinyl gloves and a disposable paper mask whenever I clean - have done that for some time now. (lol, my Mom actually gave me a big box of the masks for Christmas...a thoughtful gift)

I have not yet been able to wash everything down because it has been near-freezing for several weeks. But as soon as the weather breaks I will scrub down the entire loft.

I'm also installing an exhaust fan as soon as I can. I ordered one from a farm supply store and it should arrive any day. Trying very hard to keep the environment as clean as possible.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You sound like you are doing a wonderful wonderful job and you are a very responsible pigeon owner and its nice to come across a person like you...c.hert


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

c.hert said:


> You sound like you are doing a wonderful wonderful job and you are a very responsible pigeon owner and its nice to come across a person like you...c.hert



She is one of the very best.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> I started the whole flock on baytril this week, and will continue for 10-14 days. Hoping that wipes it out, but if I do see any symptoms again I will continue to pursue this aggressively with the vet.


Karen, I think you are doing the prudent thing, treating the whole flock as a precaution, without knowing conclusively what the cause of the illness was, I would most definitely be doing the same.

I still feel that there is a good chance that the new bag of feed you started them on before this all broke out may have been the source of all of this grief. As I said before, it seems just much too coincidental for my liking, that you started them on a new bag of feed and the next thing you know your little ones are suddenly dying, with such acute symptoms. Anyways, I take it that everyone is still recovering well and there have been no further incidences of illness breaking out, which if a huge relief.

Phil makes a good point of keeping a keen eye out for anything opportunistic cropping up while you birds are in a weakened state.

Margaret, thanks for posting the information, it is useful to know.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It is easy to sample Feed...take a good pinch of the Seeds, hydrate them in the mouth by holding them there a while, chew gently...see what the taste or unertone is.


They should taste 'good'.

Any Molds or Mildew or significant Chemicals would u-s-u-a-l-l-y be noticible if one do this.


If any incorrect tastes or flavors are present, then, spit it out, throw away that Bag of Seed.

Visually inspect also of course - Molds or Mildews or Fungus if present, would be on the outside of the Seeds, and, visible to the eye as a very fine textured dots or colors also.


No idea what Warfarin or other Rodentacides would look like, smell like or taste like if on Seeds though...


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Visually inspect also of course - Molds or Mildews or Fungus if present, would be on the outside of the Seeds, and, visible to the eye as a very fine textured dots or colors also.


I am going to take a closer look, with a magnifier, but not sure if I will taste the seed in case it is a toxin that could harm me.

One thing I did notice -
Usually my birds had been leaving behind the barley grains and something I think is wheat. (light colored, elongated seeds, like below)









When I started the new bag, they left the little round red seeds behind instead but ate everything else. (red millet?) Also the majority of what the birds were regurgitating consisted of the little round red seeds, like below.









They are finicky, but they don't usually change their tastes so quickly. When it gets warm, they gradually stop eating the corn, then I know it's time to buy the "no corn" mix. But this was weird...overnight, nobody wanted those little red seeds.

I'll get a sample from somewhere else to compare with my suspect sample. But there may or may not be anything to this. We also had a freakishly warm day - up in the 40s that weekend, then back down to the 20s and teens.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I wonder if there is a place you can send the seed for analysis?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> They are finicky, but they don't usually change their tastes so quickly. When it gets warm, they gradually stop eating the corn, then I know it's time to buy the "no corn" mix. But this was weird...overnight, nobody wanted those little red seeds.


Karen, thanks for posting more details, and it goes to the root of my still lingering suspicion about the source of illness. There are certain things in my bird's mix that they enjoy and always eat, if overnight, as you describe, they stopped eating one of the seeds they always ate, even noting a change in temperature, I would find this quite unusual behavior, as you are right, they do not stop liking something overnight for no good reason, at least I have never experienced this en masse. You may be right, it may be nothing, but I certainly do not like coincidence on top of coincidence at all.

I wonder if there is a department of the USDA where a sample(s) could be send for testing? Does anyone know if this is possible?


Karyn


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Karen, thanks for posting more details, and it goes to the root of my still lingering suspicion about the source of illness. There are certain things in my bird's mix that they enjoy and always eat, if overnight, as you describe, they stopped eating one of the seeds they always ate, even noting a change in temperature, I would find this quite unusual behavior, as you are right, they do not stop liking something overnight for no good reason, at least I have never experienced this en masse. You may be right, it may be nothing, but I certainly do not like coincidence on top of coincidence at all.
> 
> I wonder if there is a department of the USDA where a sample(s) could be send for testing? Does anyone know if this is possible?
> 
> ...


I agree - that has stuck in my head ever since she posted that at the beginning! You just don't loose "that many" birds all of a sudden that were fine 2 days prior.  Maybe 1 or 2 in a large flock that symptoms might have been missed - but I don't think that's the case with amoonswirl. I've known her to be very conscientious and observant with her birds.
I wonder if "Angell Memorial Hospital" in Boston would have a lab that could test the food?


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*uv light*

I finally got a UV light. Could not see anything particularly unusual in the grain.

But in the straw, I saw bright fluorescent green flecks and streaks throughout. White plant material (such as cracked open grains) will glow purple, I assume. As does white fabric, and dust particles. 

But the green flecks I saw in the straw were not visible at all in normal light.
My final verdict is that the straw was contaminated with some type of mold. It had gotten cold out, and I closed the windows & flight pen door at night which locked them in with the toxin. 

I'm not sending it for further analysis. What I saw was evidence enough for me. I'm now closing the book on this. Thank you to everyone who was so supportive, sympathetic, and helpful.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thank you for the update Karen. Makes you wonder if anything is safe for our birds.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks for the update and at times it is better to start a new leaf so that we get on with it--I also think it was the straw for I seened straw cause a lot of sickness if it gets wet and its something when you really can't see the spores and tragic things happen like it did to you.. So sorry it happened and so sorry about your love ones and I have felt real bad for you--its hard taking care of our babies and its hard keeping them all in good health and we all do the best we can and thats all we worry about doing the best that we can and carry on...c.hert


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you for the update, Karen. Again, I am so very sorry for your losses. Aspergillosis is the usual culprit in such circumstances. I hope our members will take heed of what happened to you and your birds.

Terry


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh believe me we will take heed, but it gets to the point where you don't know what you can and can't use. Nothing is safe. Not seed, or hay, or grit, or any of the things we need to use for our birds. After a while, you don't know what is and isn't safe. How can we be sure?


----------



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Jay3 said:


> After a while, you don't know what is and isn't safe. How can we be sure?


Hi Jay,
When all of this started and I mentioned the feed to the vets, both of them said that feed contamination is *extremely* rare. 

I would imagine that most cases of feed contamination happen because of improper storage once the buyer takes it home. Mice, rats, insects, and moisture getting into bags of feed that are not properly contained...Or because of overall bad conditions in the loft - where excess feed is left to rot on the floor. Not because of contamination at the source. I'm sure that you would never let any of these things happen...so try not to worry too much.

The UV light apparently does work though. So if it makes you feel better, perhaps check your supplies with one before you give them to the birds? The one I got is made by "Urine Off" and is sold as a urine detector.

I'd have to say that after this experience I will never use straw again though. And I am installing my new 1/8hp ventilation fan as soon as the weather breaks.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

amoonswirl said:


> Hi Jay,
> When all of this started and I mentioned the feed to the vets, both of them said that feed contamination is *extremely* rare.
> 
> I would imagine that most cases of feed contamination happen because of improper storage once the buyer takes it home. Mice, rats, insects, and moisture getting into bags of feed that are not properly contained...Or because of overall bad conditions in the loft - where excess feed is left to rot on the floor. Not because of contamination at the source. I'm sure that you would never let any of these things happen...so try not to worry too much.
> ...


Thanks Karen. Maybe I'll look into getting a light. Thanks for the info. I do use straw though. Now I'm rethinking that too. I do buy the Timothy hay bagged from the pet shop also, but that is a lot more expensive, where I like to put it out for them every now and then to give them something to do. They build the fullest nests. I don't care so much for the tobacco stems, and most of my birds don't seem too crazy about them either. The Timothy hay could get expensive, because you change the nests out to keep them clean, and for them to be able to make really good nests, it would take quite a bit. I wish we had those long pine needles around here, but we only have the short ones. Like 4 inches, and they don't really care much for them either. What will you use for nesting? Do you use nest bowls? Again thanks Karen.


----------

