# treating a pigeon who has been losing weight



## fortfun2

Hi all,
first of all, Ive checked the chevita site for symptoms and treatments and come to a conclusion that my bird (which has lost a lot of weight in the last 2 weeks, and cannot fly anymore) has been infected with salmonella, and the treatment required for it is chloramphenicol-IP (paraxin) - I have got it in capsule form of 500mg each. I have a few questions re: this medicine. (ps. I live in India, so its really hard to find/get the drugs required for the treatments, finding baytril has proved to be fulite so far  )

1. what is the dosage (in mg) I should give to the affected pigeon, and for how long?

2. any idea re: the differences between chloramphenicol, chloramphenicol-IP and chloramphenicol-N?

3. Ive heard (on wikipedia & on this message board itself) that chloramphenicol has a rare and fatal chance of contracting aplastic anemia. While I have to give this to my pigeon as an emergency response due to the symptoms it is showing, will it be "dangerous" for me to have direct skin contact with the med?

Thanks,
help on any of the questions would be greatly appreciated!
cheers, awaiting a response soon


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Fortfun2

I'm sorry your pigeon is sick. There are a couple of things that will cause pigeons to lose weight and not be able to fly - worms and coccidiosis. I would treat for worms first. I have no idea what medicines you have in India but here in America I use a product called Pyrantel for worms and Sulmet for coccidiosis.

I would also suggest bringing your pigeon inside your home and put it in a cage and on a heating pad. When they are not feeling well they need additional warmth to help them fight off disease. Also, being in a cage, you can monitor her droppings and seed comsumption which can tell you a lot about her overall condition. If you worm her you can also see the worms she passes.

I wish you good luck with it. I am not familiar with the medicine you mentioned for salmonella. Someone else will be along shortly to help you with that.


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## Reti

Baytril or Cipro are safer and work on Salmonella.
That is what we use here for it.
Chloramphenicol can indeed have those side effects but only if you're treated with it, not by just direct contact, the amount absorbed would be minimal.

You've got good advice so far, treat first for the more common ailments, like worms and then take it from there.

Reti


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## feralpigeon

If your bird is sick and losing weight, until you get to the bottom of the health
problem, you might want to augment the bird's feeding w/either baby bird
formula or water soaked puppy chow pushed to the back of the mouth and
allowing the bird to swallow on it's own....just make sure the crop is emptying
as it should between feedings.

As mentioned, it's best to treat for worms first then coccidiosis.....you might see if you have a medication available to you there known as Trimethoprim-Sulpha as it would deal simultaneously with coccidiosis, anaerobic
bacteria and is also used for salmonella by many for babies. It's not the drug
of choice per se for Salmonellosis/Paratyphoid, though in this instance w/out having a medicine chest on hand, it might be a good choice for you if available to you in India.

fp


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## Pidgey

Anyhow, the oral dose for Chloramphenicol on pigeons is 95 milligrams of pure medicine per kilogram of bird, four times per day. It is effective for Salmonella but isn't generally used because of the dosing frequency requirement and the aplastic anemia problem. 

The initials following the drugs in this case mean a couple of different things, the "I.P." referring to a reference standard "International Pharmacopeoia". Not sure about the "N" but the Chevita site mentions that it was water soluable. The tablets are obviously for oral use so you should be good to go there although you're going to have to divide them up depending on the weight of the bird. You don't want to give an overdose of this stuff.

Personally, I'd tend to wonder why you think that the bird's losing weight is due to Paratyphoid (Salmonellosis). I have seen that, but it's not the most common reason why they do. When they get sick enough to get anorectic (choosing not to eat) it can be like that but you have to understand that sometimes if their GI (GastroIntestinal Tract) has shut down then oral antibiotics are often contraindicated (not recommended) because their systems might not even bother to absorb them. Oral Chloramphenicol is actually not recommended for a bird demonstrating septicemia for that very reason.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi fortfun2.



Once you have her in a Cage, use a white Towell for the Cage Bottom, and see what the poops are like...how many in 24 hours, color, consistancy and so on...


Worms are easily a culprit in these mysterious weight loss and langour situations...and other illnesses or complaints also of course.


See how she eats, if she is eating, see what her Crop seems like, any air or Gas in it, if it emptys nicely...if she is drinking, more or less than seems usual...


See if her Nares are less than brilliant 'White'...

check her throat, is it nice and pink? Is it purple? Any lesions or anything? check for Canker...


Have her under observaiton in effect...


Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon

You might want to read this thread on the topic of chloramphenicol:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12041&page=2&highlight=chloramphenicol

Do you have an avian vet or are you making the best of it yourself? Are there any other symptoms of concern
that you didn't mention in your first post? Maybe you could tell us a bit more about the bird's housing and
diet routines.

fp


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## Pidgey

Yep, it's definitely got its bad possibilities. It's also something that this person has in hand and might not be able to find a better drug within the time required. It is a drug that has been used quite a bit and is still used under certain circumstances. In the book, it even mentions it being used for flock treatment, that it was especially good for that, in fact.

I'd resort to it if it was a case where my back was against the wall. Sure would be nice to have a regular Indian member who knew their away around these difficulties in India and could help other Indians. Kajupakhi could possibly tell fortfun2 how to shop for Cipro in India. I'll try an email, just in case.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

...if a friendly people m.d. were amenible - a few 500 mg 'sample' Tablets could go a long way for a Pigeon...


What basis is there so far for establishing a prospective diagnosis here with this? for determining an appropriate medicine-regimen? Aside from the Pigeon loseing weight?

How is the Bird kept? What was it's history prior to being kept?


Worms are common for any ground-grazing Creatures...even Flower Gardeners who bite their nails...


Lol...

And true!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon

Well, going back to safe drugs that will deal w/more than one issue, if you can
get Trimethoprim Sulfa you would be treating both Coccidiosis and Salmonellosis. It sure would be nice to have a list of medications readily available to folks in India to help in selecting the best medication.
So far the symptoms described are weight loss and not flying anymore which isn't exactly overwhelming symptomatic evidence that the bird has Paratyphoid.
Now, if there were a boil on a wing, folks would be all over it naming the condition as Paratyphoid. 

It's certainly disconcerting when your bird that you love is not doing well health
wise, though some discretion needs to be excersized when medicating for 
illnesses that are diagnosed w/out the aid of tests. This is especially so where there are symptoms that aren't definitively one particular illness, and
the medication is considered risky itself.

fp


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## fortfun2

First of all, thanks a TON for all the advice...  
Now for the bad news - unfortunately, my pigeon passed away a few hours back.   It was sitting at the corner of the cage, and eventually stopped showing all signs of life. (ps. it couldn't even walk properly!)  
Was going to look for the other meds you guys mentioned today, and eventaully I did not end up using chloramphenicol. 

anyway, the answers to some of your questions (I certainly hope I can keep the other 3 pigeons I have remaining healthy and well...)

1. No, it wasn't canker. Some of my birds had got canker previously, and I had treated them with the appropriate meds. Canker didn't infect my birds after that.
2. Eating and drinking was normal, though probably eating was a bit less, due to its general weakness.
3. Im making the best of it myself. No avian vets in my area, there is a dog & cat vet closely, but he doesn't know jack about birds etc.
4. My birds are normally kept in a cage, and I try my best to seclude them from the feral pigeons over here due to the risk of PMV etc. (I've seen a few wild pigeons with PMV symptoms). This pigeon in particular had been with me for more than 4 years, and had always been healthy and active.

A few more questions-
1. Could you please tell me what the poops are supposed to look like if a worm infestation should occur to the bird?
2. What should I do about the other birds? As in, should I medicate them, and with what? Im assuming it should start with some worm meds first?

Thanks for the help guys....


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## pdpbison

Hi fortfun2,




Far as I know...they are far more likely to get Avian Viruses from a bite of a Mosquito, in their Cage...than they are from flying with feral others, or grazing with them.


Poops may seem smaller if Worms are a problem.


Lack of real flying excercise, lack of direct Sunshine, and lack of fresh Greens and other 'wild' diet elements, can weaken and deplete them to where they will get diseases or degenerative conditions then hard to diagnose or treat.




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

I'm so sorry to hear the bird passed away.

I understand it is difficult to find the medications needed for rehabbing a sick bird in your area, it must be quite a challenge.

I would certainly try to acquire the meds that have been mentioned for the future. 

PMV is quite contagious and I would secure my birds inside. PMV birds can be rehabilitated, birds will not die from it, they usually die out in nature because they cannot find or pick up seed due to head twisting-so they starve to death. Our rehabbers here have rehabilitated a substantial amount of PMV birds successfully, but it is the supportive care that is crucial. The birds have to be hand fed, (or have access to seed in deep dishes) until they are able to eat on their own, as with any disease. If a bird doesn't eat because he is sick he has to be force fed until he can eat on his own, they otherwise die of starvation, not necesssarily because of the disease.

You probably should worm all your birds and get the innoculations for PMV, Paratyphoid and Pox, if that is at all possible-The other meds that you could get would be for coccidiosis, canker, and worms-three of the other diseases that can effect pigeons. There are a few more possiblities- like respiratory infection, but its best to treat only when you have a diagnosis, if not then you go with the symptoms as best as you can.

You have already gotten many suggestions on medications you need to keep on hand, but best thing if you can avoid some of the diseases with innoculations. Prevention also can be done, by using apple cider vinegar in their drinking water a few days, or cutting up a garlic clove and putting that in their water on other days, will also keep some bacteria down.

I'm sure others will be along to offer their suggestions.


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## flitsnowzoom

I'm so sorry your bird didn't make it  . It's hard.
I hope all your other birds are doing well.


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## Pidgey

The really sad part is that the Chloramphenicol might have saved it. Of course, if the med had been given and the bird died anyway, it would have been more than likely that the med would have been blamed so it was a real Catch-22.

So, what you're saying is that the bird continued to eat and drink somewhat normally until the last few hours? Were there any other symptoms besides losing weight and getting weaker?

Paratyphoid is Salmonellosis typhimurium and the "-murium" part means "mouse" (It's Latin). Is there any possibility of mice getting into their quarters, their feed or even in their feed before you bought it?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

I'm very sorry to hear about your bird passing, fortfun2. We know that it is 
difficult for members in India from past experience here on the same topic. 
Don't think it serves your bird or this situation well to second guess what
if anything the medication may or may not have achieved. If these are outdoor birds, the best thing you can do is have screening to protect them from pigeon flys or mosquitos as Phil mentioned. A routine with ACV, Garlic and vitamins (D3 if they are inside birds) will help to keep them from becoming compromised in their heath and therefore open to contracting illness or parasites. Both Coccidiosis and Trichomoniasis (canker) are "Host equilibrium" diseases in that the organisms-Coccidia and Trichomonads-are always there but in non-symptomatic numbers. When the bird isn't in good condition then these populations surge in numbers and manifest an actual disease state. Because they tend to enjoy more of an Alkaline state, having a weekly regimine that includes raw ACV ( the best though pasteurized would do) to the tune of 1 Tablespoon to a gallon, fresh Garlic in the drinking water-- I believe that was 1 clove to a gallon--will help to ensure a more acidic environment. And after having said all this, beyond the disease state
that comes into being from exposure, pigeons like humans can simply have insurmountable health issues that come into view as a result of larger issues
relating to loss of organ function or for hens, oviduct problems.

Getting back to the impaired ability to keep meds on hand due to difficulty
obtaining them, I think you may be able to use this link:

http://www.medsmex.com/

Some of these sites get around issues w/medications by either having a consulting
physician or saying that the medications are "samples", but it's worth
possibly trying a small order w/them and seeing if you are successful.
I will also pm another member who may have some helpful input regarding
meds in your country.

fp


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## fortfun2

I managed to get hold of Trimethoprim-Sulpha. It is in tablet form - around 1000 mg per tablet. Could you please tell me the dosage to be given to each pigeon and how it should be administered?
Also what is the quantity of apple cider vinegar I should put into their drinking water?


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## Skyeking

fortfun2 said:


> Also what is the quantity of apple cider vinegar I should put into their drinking water?


I'm sorry to hear about the bird.

I can't help with drug dosage, but I can tell you the dose of the ACV. It is 1 to 2 tablespoons per gallon of drinking water.


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## Pidgey

One formulary for pigeons has a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination at 60 milligrams per kilogram of bird, orally, every 12 hours. You'd need to find a way to either guess at or weigh a bird and then be able to divide the pill accordingly.

Pidgey


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## fortfun2

thanks a ton for the replies...
umm another question  - 
for how many days should I administer the 12 hour dosages for Trim/Sulpha?


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## feralpigeon

What breed is your pigeon or are they ferals? Maintenance can be done a couple of times a week w/ACV or go to higher rate of two-three tablespoons
per gallon five days in a row for medicinal dosing. Might be easier on a pill that
size to mix in drinking water and dose that way.

fp


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## Pidgey

Well, that's often dictated by the illness but about a week.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne

*re Cipro dosage, Part 1 of 3*

Hello fort2fun,

I sent you an email with some info I had copied 25 August 2005 onto a floppy, concerning info on cotrim for a vet treating a Doberman Pinacher dog. Most of the info was was how to cipro applied to humans, some of the info was general info on cipro. 



> BRAND NAMES: TRIBRISSEN, SEPTRA, BACTRIM, COTRIM, SULFATRIM
> AVAILABLE IN
> 5 mg trimethoprim/25 mg sulfadiazine
> 20 mg trimethoprim/100 mg sulfadiazine
> 80 mg trimethoprim/400 mg sulfadiazine
> 80 mg trimethoprim/400 mg sulfamethoxazole
> 160 mg trimethoprim/800 mg sulfadiazine


The tablet you have is a 960 mg tablet (I use the same med for myself, so always have a supply on hand). 

I have treated several pigeons with it. The first one was my pigeon *Wieteke*, who was 18-days-old (on August 23, 2005) judging from an internet photo series of a growing pigeon chicks. Wieteke was a dead ringer or twin image of the squab in the pictures, and could almost pass for PT member Victor Slade's *Tooter*. I noticed him while still searching for our rescued-as-a-baby and hand-raised *Pidgiepoo*, who at eight-and-a-half months of age had been chased off by crows in a city park at noon on January 14th, 2005, and was never seen again. 

Wieteke was on the concrete embankment under a train bridge passing over a two-lane auto road and streetcar tracks, next to the sidewalk, under steel girders where he had fallen from or was pushed from a nest. He had a sibling nearby in the dark recesses. Wieteke was well-fed, but hadn't moved in the two or three hour interval from when I first glmpsed him and then later specifically went to look at him. I had noticed that he was too close, at my eye level -- I am six foot three inches tall -- to human passersby -- (update: this very minute, as I type this, Wieteke paired on the carpet in front of me with female flightless rescue *Osk-gurr*) -- and he could not use his legs, so I took him home with me. (Wieteke's feral mate *Mamieke* is not allowed in the apartment, due to circumstances beyond our immediate control. Several females show interest in what is going on here, and Wieteke cases them away from the window sill because they will not/[cannot] come in, and I think Mamieke is one of them. Not sure. She is hard to tell apart. The one I think is she, also chases other females away).

Wieteke's parents had been feeding him, but he was immobile, and I would not be going by that place for several more days. I did not know how long he would continue to be fed, or if his feeding had come to an end. I had raised another 5-to-8-day-old-rescue chick *Pidgiepoo* (formerly named *Vanilla Dove*) to healthy adulthood. (Wieteke was at firts named *Luxie*, for Luxemburger Strasse, where the train bridge was, the street heading from Cologne in the direction Luxemburg. Info for anyone looking at old, archived posts.

I took the cotrim 960 mg tablet, broke it in half where there was a crease or indentation crossing the width of the tablet for just such a purpose, pulverized it with a spoon on top of a plastic sandwich bag, kept dividng it in half wth a razor blade (very inaccurate way to do it). First division by breaking the tablet in two gave two tablet halves. Subsequent divisions performed using the razor blade and "guestimating" by eyeball. I did not try to subdivide each and every pile, because I did not require that many mini-doses. I needed at least two 12.5 mg doses a day for a duration of at least five days, I figured. There is probably some inert binding material added to the 960 milligrams of medicine, so as to make a paste which holds together and forms a tablet with integrity and good molding and drying properties. so, what the actual milligram weigh of the tablet is, I cannot determine without some research.

I figured I needed 12.5 mg powder cotrim _b.i.d._ (twice a day) for a quarter-kilo (250 gram) pigeon (written 12,5 mg in Germany, usng a comma for the decimal point indicator: don't know punctuation for numbers in India or Great Britain). I figured this out from researching PT or the web. Don't have the quotations for sources available right now. 

(*From memory*: dose is 50 mg to 100 mg cotrim per 1000 grams of bird. 

That would make it a dose of 12.5 mg to 25 mg for a 250-gram or one-quarter kilogram pigeon. Two doses per day, administered approximately 12 hours apart. 

*Weights of our feral pigeons in Cologne, from my personal observations:* 
(1) Adult males range 300 to 400 grams. 
(2) Weighed a heavy, freshly-dead run-over pigeon at 400 grams. (I had stupidly dropped seeds on the street, and he was too slow at lifting off while flying in front of an accelerating car. Driver maybe couldn't see him).
(3) The few females have averaged 280 grams (ten ounces, 28.5 grams per ounce). 
(4) Male adult Pidgiepoo averaged 280 grams, ten ounces.

(5) Male adult Wieteke averages 330 grams. Has ranged from 300 to 370 grams while healthy adult. 

263 grams 23 August when found, afternoon. 
249 grams 24 August 6:40 AM (morning, before eating).
235 grams 26 August 7:20 AM (morning, upon waking, before eating). 
A month later, when he was healthy and first ventured outside on his own, he averaged 285 to 300 grams before breakfast.
Averaged 280-290 grams when he was sick in June 2006. 

Some starving, sick (sex not determined) pigeons weighed 200-230 grams at rescue. Some didn't make it. 

End of Part One.
Part Two follows in my next post. (1000 word limit per post).

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne

*re Cipro dosage*

Hello fort2fun,

I sent you an email with some info I had coped 25 August 2005 onto a floppy, concerning info on cotrim for a vet treating a Doberman Pinacher dog. Most of the info was was how to cipro applied to humans, some of the info was general info on cipro. 



> BRAND NAMES: TRIBRISSEN, SEPTRA, BACTRIM, COTRIM, SULFATRIM
> AVAILABLE IN
> 5 mg trimethoprim/25 mg sulfadiazine
> 20 mg trimethoprim/100 mg sulfadiazine
> 80 mg trimethoprim/400 mg sulfadiazine
> 80 mg trimethoprim/400 mg sulfamethoxazole
> 160 mg trimethoprim/800 mg sulfadiazine


The tablet you have is a 960 mg tablet (I use the same med for myself, so always have a supply on hand). 

I have treated several pigeons with it.The first one was my pigeon *Wieteke*, who was 18-days-old (on August 23, 2005) judging from an internet photo series of a growing pigeon chicks. Wieteke was a dead ringer or twin image of the squab in the pictures, and could almost pass for PT member Victor Slade's *Tooter*. I noticed him while still searching for our rescued-as-a-baby and hand-raised *Pidgiepoo*, who at eight-and-a-half months of age had been chased off by crows in a city park at noon on January 14th, 2005, and was never seen again. 

Wieteke was on the concrete embankment under a train bridge passing over a two-lane auto road and streetcar tracks, next to the sidewalk, under steel girders where he had fallen from or was pushed from a nest. He had a sibling nearby in the dark recesses. Wieteke was well-fed, but hadn't moved in the two or three hour interval from when I first glmpsed him and then later specifically went to look at him. I had noticed that he was too close, at my eye level -- I am six foot three inches tall -- to human passersby -- (update: this very minute, as I type this, Wieteke paired on the carpet in front of me with female flightless rescue *Osk-gurr*) -- and he could not use his legs, so I took him home with me. (Wieteke's feral mate *Mamieke* is not allowed in the apartment, due to circumstances beyond our immediate control. Several females show interest in what is going on here, and Wieteke cases them away from the window sill because they will not/[cannot] come in, and I think Mamieke is one of them. Not sure. She is hard to tell apart. The one I think is she, also chases other females away).

Wieteke's parents had been feeding him, but he was immobile, and I would not be going by that place for several more days. I did not know how long he would continue to be fed, or if his feeding had come to an end. I had raised another 5-to-8-day-old-rescue chick *Pidgiepoo* (formerly named *Vanilla Dove*)to healthy adulthood. (Wieteke was at firts named *Luxie*, for Luxemburger Strasse, where the train bridge was, the street heading from Cologne in the direction Luxemburg. Info for anyone looking at old, archived posts.

I took the cotrim 960 mg tablet, broke it in half where there was a crease or indentation crossing the width of the tablet for just such a purpose, pulverized it with a spoon on top of a plastic sandwich bag, kept dividng it in half wth a razor blade (very inaccurate way to do it). First division by breaking the tablet in two gave two tablet halves. Subsequent divisions using the razor blade and "guestimating" by eyeball. I did not try to subdivide each and every pile, because I did not require that many mini-doses. I needed at least two 12.5 mg doses a day for a duration of at least five days, I figured. There is probably some inert binding material added to the 960 milligrams of medicine, so as to make a paste which holds together and forms a tablet with integrity and good molding and drying properties. so, what the actual milligram weigh of the tablet is, I cannot determine without some research.

I figured I needed 12.5 mg powder cotrim _b.i.d._ (twice a day) for a quarter-kilo (250 gram) pigeon (written 12,5 mg in Germany, usng a comma for the decimal point indicator: don't know punctuation for numbers in India or Great Britain). I figured this out from researching PT or the web. Don't have the quotations for sources available right now. 

(*From memory*: dose is 50 mg to 100 mg cotrim per 1000 grams of bird. 

That would make it a dose of 12.5 mg to 25 mg for a 250-gram or one-quarter kilogram pigeon. Two doses per day, administered approximately 12 hours apart. 

*Weights of our feral pigeons in Cologne, from my personal observations:* 
(1) Adult males range 300 to 400 grams. 
(2) Weighed a heavy, freshly-dead run-over pigeon at 400 grams. (I had stupidly dropped seeds on the street, and he was too slow at lifting off while flying in front of an accelerating car. Driver maybe couldn't see him).
(3) The few females have averaged 280 grams (ten ounces, 28.5 grams per ounce). 
(4) Male Pidgiepoo averaged 280 grams, ten ounces.

(5) Male Wieteke averages 330 grams. Has ranged from 300 to 370 grams while healthy. Weight dropped to 260 grams when he had 

263 grams 23 August when found, afternoon. 
249 grams 24 August 6:40 AM (morning, before eating).
235 grams 26 August 7:20 AM (morning, upon waking, before eating). 
A month later, when he was healthy and first ventured outside on his own, he averaged 285 to 300 grams before breakfast.
Averaged 280-290 grams when he was sick in June 2006.

End of Part One.
Part two follows in my next post. (1000 word limit per post).

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne

*re Cipro dosage, part 2 of 3*

I gave Wieteke the first dose the day after I found him, after I had been able to access the info that day on our twice-weekly local community center senior citizen internet cafe slow dial-up connection, two hour session. I am so grateful for being able to access this info on the internet then, though with high speed DSL connection at home with a new computer, those conditions now seem so primitive. I had to frantically search, skim-read for relevence, copy-paste, copy-paste, copy-paste in .doc file format to slow floppy disk and look at the info at home on a ten-year-old laptop. 

I was somewhat exhausted when I finally mixed the cipro in water, and gave him the dose calculated for a one-kilo bird, instead of a quarter-kilo bird. Gave him 50-60 mg instead of 12,5 mg. Realized my mistake when I was double-checking my figures the next day. Decided to give him a second 50 gram dose to hit the self-diagnosed paratyphoid/salmonellosis hard, and then follow up with 12.5 mg cotrim twice-a-day doses on the third, fourth, and fifth days.

My dosing (from notes, not memory):
0,5ml ACV (apple cider vinegar) + 12,5mg Cotrim (pulverized tablet) in 1,5ml water, + probiotics, administered orally by pipette.

On May 13, 2006, after talking with PT member Reti by phone, when Wieteke was very sick, I was very tired, and I needed to speak to someone so as to unscramble my thoughts, I used this formula: 

0.3 ml of Cotrim mixed in water (for a 300 gram pigeon, since Wieteke was now heavier) 
(from Cotrim 1/2 of 960 mg tablet suspended in 10 cc water), 
twice a day, 

The half tablet of Cotrim was not necessarily all in solution, or dissolved; some or all was in suspension, and tended to settle out. So I shook the combination of cotrim and water thoroughly, used a syringe, a one-milliliter syringe marked or graduated in one-tenth of a milliliter increments on the outside of the syringe. Syringe was type and size used for allergy shots. Squirted it down his throat, past the opening of the trachea or windpipe at the base of the tongue.

When I had earlier used a 3-ml-size pipette (used by hospital labs, for example, for taking small urine samples from a patient’s larger urine specimen collection jar, and also found in arts and crafts, hobby shops), a plastic tube with integrated squeeze bulb (similar to but smaller than what cooks use for basting with sauce), I added water to increase the total volume to two or three milliliters, so that even if some didn’t make it all the way down the throat into the crop, or if some were absorbed by food and eventually not taken into the blood stream, or if the pigeon shook shook free some of the medicine from his beak and mouth afterwards, I could rest assured that he got most of what I had intended. 

(*paraphrased*, abbreviated from *Wikipedia*) since I have witnessed some confusion on PT among some members regarding measurement units: 



> In the early metric system there were several fundamental or base units, the grad or _grade_ for angles, the metre for length, the gram for mass and the litre for capacity. These were derived from each other via the properties of natural objects, mainly the Earth and water: 1 metre was originally defined as 1/40,000,000th of the polar circumference of the Earth, and 1 litre of water has a mass of 1 kg and measures 1 dm³. Other units were derived from this, such as the Celsius temperature scale, where water freezes at 0 °C and boils at 100 °C at standard pressure. …





> The gram, originally one millionth of the mass of a cubic metre of water, is currently defined by one thousandth of the mass of a specific object that is kept in a vault in France; however there are efforts underway to redefine it in terms of physical quantities that could be reproduced in any laboratory with suitable equipment. …





> The names of multiples and submultiples are formed with prefixes. They include _deca-_ (ten), _hecto-_ (hundred), _kilo-_ (thousand), _mega-_ (million), and _giga-_ (billion); _deci-_ (tenth), _centi-_ (hundredth), _milli-_ (thousandth), _micro-_ (millionth), and _nano-_ (billionth). The most commonly used prefixes for multiples depend on the application and sometimes tradition. For example, long distances are stated in thousands of kilometres, not megametres. …


If you asked before now what a megameter was, I could not have readily told you in surety. I would have had to recall what a mega-something was – hmm, a megastore … no, doesn’t help … a megabyte is….

In my usual day-to-day calculations I think of a millilter of liquid as corresponding more or less equally to a milligram or cubic centimeter of the same liquid, likewise a liter in volume and a kilogram, but this applies only to water, at a certain temperature and barometric pressure, etc, etc. Frozen water (ice) takes up more volume than liquid water, and gaseous water (water vapor) varies in volme. The sailors used to use the saying “A pint’s a pound the world around” when dealing with beer and ale, and shipping containers. A given volume or mass of steel weighs more than the same volume or mass of water. Syrup weighs more than water. Oil weighs less than water, since it floats on top. 


Part 3 follows.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne

*re Cipro dosage, Part 3 of 3*

I do not wish to be condescending by going into so much detail, but for other readers, or someone not too well informed it might be useful. The facts can be pinned down and corrected. No wiggle room. This is more a history of my observations and responses, and not a recommendation or presciption for others. We have heard of _caveat emptor_, Latin for “let the buyer beware.” We can also add, _caveat lector_, or let the reader beware. What Is Written is not necessarily true (even though for many, more easily remembered than what is heard).

And it wish to be precise so I don’t mis-inform. If my information is incorrect, blatantly false, then it is easy to correct, and maybe easy to spot. 

Pidgey’s figure for cotrim is 60 mg per kilogram of pigeon, or 6 mg per 100 grams of pigeon, 15 mg for a 250 gram or quarter-kilogram bird, or 18 mg for a 300 gram bird. 
960/60=16. Halves, quarters, eighths, sixteenths. Or one-eighth of a half-960 mg tablet.

I had a source which said 50 mg to 100 mg per kg of pigeon, which worked out to a range from 12.5 to 25 mg for a 250 gram pigeon. Half or double of a given amount provides a bit of lee-way. 

Using a large enough amount of liquid to measure accurately, not so small an amount that errors are easily worked in, and not so large a volume that you have a lot of waste, makes sense when resources and equipment and planned usage ae limited. Dividing volumes in halves, and then halving again, and so on, is easier than working out tenths of a given small volume. 


To end up, a formula I used for the antibiotic Cipro (ciprofloxacin hydrochloride) (designated for humans) in tablet form, in place of Baytril (designated for animals) 

0.3 ml Cipro (from Ciprobay 750 mg tablet suspended in 30 ml water and 20 ml corn syrup) for a 300 gram pigeon. 

I usd maple syrup _(Ahornsirup)_, since I had trouble locating corn syrup in Germany. Was told to *not* use an oil such as olive oil or garlic oil as a substitute.

Also, *fortfun2*, 

in Google India I came across the web-site Animal Welfare Board of India Chennai 
http://www.awbi.org/members.htm 
They had a pamphlet in English at one time (link came up empty-handed). Might have to go to Hindi or Tamil pages.

Also, how about *Ayurveda medicine* or _Denagavari_? India is so rich in traditions developed over thousands of years. Someone once said that Indian cuisine is the best in the world, since they have so many spices and ingredients, and many had little to do other than develop good recipes. He said _good food *is* good medicine._ 

You may have some superior resources you are overlooking, right under your nose. Of course, you probably know this better than I. 

Good luck with your pigeons.
Larry


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## fortfun2

Thanks for the extremely informative and well written thread!  Actually I did not check this site for a few days, and had eventually decided that I 
should provide around 20-25 mg per bird after some simple arithmetics

Anyway, after 2 initial dosages for the pigeons (around 20 mg placed directly into their mouth), I came to the conclusion that it would probably be a better idea to dissolve a tablet (after being crushed to a powder form) directly into a mug of their drinking water, along with 2/3 tablespoon of ACV. The tablet did not dissolve completely, and I didn't intend to do that later, for fear of over dosage. 

However, it has been 4 days, and the pigeons still seem to be just as thin as before, if not thinner.  Im getting kinda freaked out here - I really dont 
want any of my remaining birds to die!  

The good news is, Ive managed to get hold of pyrantel in liquid form - I suppose this is also used for humans... the bottle says "each 5 ml contains 

pyrantel pamoate USP equivalent to 250 mg of pyrantel".

My questions are:
1. How should I administer this for the birds?
2. Dosage per pigeon?
3. Is it safe to give this med to the birds along with the tablets Im already giving?

Thank you all!


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## Pidgey

25 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, once, repeat in 10 to 14 days. The medicine is 50 milligrams per milliliter so you're looking at dosing about 1/6th of a milliliter (0.16 mls) or so.

You've got another bird with the same symptoms?

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne

*re Pyrantel pamoate*

Thanks Pidgey for your quick reply!

I had never heard of pyrantel pamoate, so was googling, coming up with some info, but not enough as to dosage and appropriateness for pigeons.

I was going to cut and paste miscellaneous articles and snippets, and you've save me, at least, some work.

Again, thanks very, very much!

Fort2fun, good luck!

Larry


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## Pidgey

Incidentally, let's say that the bird was losing weight due to Coccidiosis, a protozoal disease that infects (or infests) the mucosal lining of the intestines and causes ulceration. If you start an appropriate medication (Trimethoprim/Sulfa is one such), it usually takes days to turn the infection around and even more to repair the damage done. And even more to start really regaining weight.

Unfortunately, you're shooting blind without the benefit of some testing so you're stuck watching for days and hoping. I hope the bird does okay and I wish I could tell you one way or another but there's not enough information to go on.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

fortfun2 said:


> >>>snip<<<<
> I came to the conclusion that it would probably be a better idea to dissolve a tablet (after being crushed to a powder form) directly into a mug of their drinking water, along with 2/3 tablespoon of ACV. The tablet did not dissolve completely, and I didn't intend to do that later, for fear of over dosage.




Hi fortfun2,


This would be far too strong a proportion of the ACV for the Bird to willingly drink the solution.

Too, likely, the ACV-Water should not be used to dissolve medicines in, since it will probably cause problems with the suspension or precipitate out elements of the medicine which will then not be suspended but instead will sink to the bottom.

Medicines which can be dissolved in Water, when concurrent with an ACV regimen, should probably be tube-fed into their Crop in their own solution...so the Bird can have the ACV-Water as their drinking Water.


Instead of trying to mix ACV into their drinking mug or bowl, simply obtain a regular plastic one Gallon Jug as from typical inexpensive 
bottled Water...and mix a Gallon of ACV-Water then in this Jug, Label it clearly so you and anyone else will know what it is, and use it to dispense the Solution into their drinking Bowls.

My own choice is to use Two Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the Gallon of Water for incidental routine drinking Water.

And, to use three to three and a half Tablespoons to the Gallon for theraputic regimens used to treat Candida or Yeast infections of the Crop or digestive system...or for various vague presentations where for whatever reason, I feel it will help.


Use plastic or stainless steel Water Bowls if possible, since the somewhat acidic solution of ACV-Water will leach heavy metals and other toxic elements from almost any Glass or Crockery or Pottery containers, and inexpensive 'mugs' especially are the worst in this regard.




I have some reason to suspect that in review of my own confronting of past ( and present) occasions of mysterious lost-weight situations, which did not respond to the various medications I was trying...

That 'Oxytetracycline' might be one to consider as worth trying.

I had some years ago and had many successes with it, but ran out and for a long time I did not have any.

This is a common medicine, available in packets for wide uses in Animal Husbandry contexts, and any Farm or Feed supply store will likely cary it for a very low price.

I obtained a 168 Gram ( I think it was, but it is enough for making 100 gallons of solution for treating Cattle or Poultry or whatever in farming contexts) packet or sache of powder the other day, over the counter, for about $7.00 U.S. and this is enough to treat a great many Animals, and a vast number of small Birds.

In this form, it dissolves readily in Water, and is supposed to be dissolved in Water, and possibly is fine even in the ACV-Water without precipitation issues, but I do not know and one must find out by experiment to see.

It is also avilable in injectable form in rubber-top Brown Bottles, and that is what I had years ago. But I used it in their Water anyway, and did not inject it. This form would be hard to obtain without a Doctor of some kind writing a prescription, and it would be very expensive typically compared to the powder-agriculture/farm kind.



Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## fortfun2

umm bad news everybody... my pigeons (the 3 that are remaining) are still losing weight, and Im at a loss at what to do.

Ive given them a regular dosage of Trimethoprim-Sulpha (the dosage recommended), ACV/Garlic in water, and the proper Pyrantel dosage... But still Im pretty sure that some of them are still losing weight... any ideas?

will write a longer msg when I get back home


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## Skyeking

I'm sorry your birds are not responding to the treatment you are giving them based on the symptoms you gave us. You really need to find a professional avian vet who can diagnose.

You need to hand feed your birds if they are not eating on their own, or not eating enough, and your dosage of ACV is way too high, and it should not be mixed with drugs.


PLEASE read carefully the dosages and instructions given here, and the birds MUST be HAND FED to survive.


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## fortfun2

I HAVE read the instructions that you guys have given, and I had reduced the amount of ACV in water quite a while back... anyways I think I have found a good avian vet on the other side of town, and Im going there this Saturday with my birds to check it out...

BTW, Ive noticed that my pigeons have brown/reddish poop with a lot of watery content. I am assuming this is one of the symptoms of salmonellosis right?

I don't think any of the meds I mentioned one post back is working, so that might be it...


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## Maggie-NC

Hi fortfun

I'm really sorry your birds are experiencing this weight loss. Most of the time when we have seen that in our birds it is caused by worms. We had to keep one of our "pets" in the house all last winter because of a severe case of worms and it was a real battle to eliminate them. She had to be dosed (at two week intervals) several times with Pyrantel (which is our wormer of choice), Ivomec and Panacur (which is not a real desirable choice but our vet says it is safe if used properly). I'm happy to say she is fine now but it was truly a struggle for several months. We also had to hand feed her from time to time (like Treesa recommended that you need to do) to keep her going until the meds helped.

What type of flooring do you have in your loft? 

Another disease that will cause weight loss is coccidiosis and the poop is similar to what you describe. For this, we use Sulmet (brand name) in their water and repeat in 10 days.

Also, you may even need to switch her from Bactrim (the brand name for the "trimethoprin-sulpha" you are now using) to Baytril (a big gun antibiotic).

I hope you can get stool cultures done by the vet.


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## pdpbison

Hi fortfun, 



I think Lady Tarheel has offered some very good information.


In addition to which, you might tell us, what is their diet? 


Fecal analysis should show if the brown-red is Blood in the poops, semi digested and not digested...and if so, that suggests bleeding in the intestines.


This can happen from Intestinal parasites such as Worms, or Coccidiosis, and possibly other things, conditions or kinds of illness also.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## fortfun2

Argh! I went to the pigeon vet near Red Fort today but he wasnt there... Apparently hel be back in a few days... So for the time being, I went to a special animal med shop and got some enrofloxacin (which is supposed to be Baytril/Bayrocin) 50 mb tablets.

Im ready to give the pigeon the appropriate dosage, but the back of the leaf says Bayrocin 50 mg = 10 kg

I had read somewhere that I should give 10 mg per pigeon, but the numbers seem to contradict each other... Any ideas about the dosage?


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## Pidgey

15 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily. Written: 15 mg/kg, PO,BID.

Pidgey


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