# Excellent Health without drugs !



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Such a statement, is contrary to the so called modern method of medical supervision. But as it relates to the racing pigeon community, the quality of the pigeon has taken second place to such far out practices like doping and the slavish use of antibiotics.
A person who has a cabinet full of pills and medical remedies may also be inclined to also over medicate their pigeons. Everyone likes to read into what they want to read, so as to confirm their own way of thinking. In 1995 at a Veterinary Congress in the Netherlands, a Dr. P. De Backer, gave a lecture on the use of medical remedies on pigeons, he stated that it was possible to avoid unecessary and sometimes dangerous drugs.
How is this possible ? Good feeding ! I suggest that if we made nutrition the cornerstone of keeping our birds healthy, we can prevent many of the ailments that you hear about. And those birds which can stay healthy on their own accord, are our best pigeons.
The commercial selling of 4in1 or 5in1 concoctions of drug cocktails, shows how far down the road we have come. Is it any wonder that newer and deadlier diseases and bugs are being created from this antibiotic abuse !


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Warren excellent post ! I think that the correct breeding of natually healthy birds has much to do with health also. Some birds are more prone to going down than others even though they are housed together,drink the same water and eat the same feed. I was on a sqaub farm a few years ago and I noticed a dead bird in one of the large breeding pens and of coarse I found it odd and asked about it. I was told that sick birds were never removed due to what ever took that bird down they wanted to run through and knock down the weak and succeptable, the others built immunitys up. In other words the strong survive and the weak don't and this in turn keeps the loft strong, keep in mind that these are closed loft envirements. I think that every time you baby a sick bird and keep those same genes running in the loft you are breeding geneticly weak birds which in turn means more weak birds that are prone to sickness.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I agree pretty much completely, natural is best. If the bird(s) can fight off an illness and recover successfully, they are strong and will pass this onto their offspring. This is the way it works in all of nature; "the fittest survive to ensure the species". I do believe though there are times when drugs are necessary, such as with worm infections or cocci and other parasitic things. As for antibiotics, I don't like to use them on myself or my birds. I really only like to use antibiotics when it's absolutely necessary. The best tool any of us has to prevent disease and sickness is good food, clean water, vitamins and a lot of good husbandry. This is the best prevention and it goes a long way.



Brad


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Make nature our friend*



Pigeonpal2002 said:


> I agree pretty much completely, natural is best. If the bird(s) can fight off an illness and recover successfully, they are strong and will pass this onto their offspring. This is the way it works in all of nature; "the fittest survive to ensure the species". I do believe though there are times when drugs are necessary, such as with worm infections or cocci and other parasitic things. As for antibiotics, I don't like to use them on myself or my birds. I really only like to use antibiotics when it's absolutely necessary. The best tool any of us has to prevent disease and sickness is good food, clean water, vitamins and a lot of good husbandry. This is the best prevention and it goes a long way.
> 
> 
> 
> Brad


Brad,
Thanks for your post. Not to hog this post, but even the conditions you mentioned, might be controlled with a natural product. I am not an expert in this field, but I am trying to use a natural product or method whenever possible. Take worms for example, if you use garlic juice in the water, and garlic oil over the feed, and give baths using pigeon bath salts, has anyone out there had a problem with worms or mites ?


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Warren, excellent topic. Maintaining a strong genetic base is critical. I have pet pigeons and really appreciate the care and effort the breeders put into creating these beautiful, healthy birds. I agree that antibiotics can be overused or used incorrectly. This is a wide-spread problem especially in the food production industry.

Brad mentioned the importance of good husbandry. Because pigeons are such prolific producers of poop and baby pigeons, sanitation and space are critical elements which easily get out of hand. It's like eating junk food - things don't break right away, so you can slide by for a while. If you let it go on too long, Mother Nature cleans house for you!


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Warren, great post. I'm not totally convinced that garlic will kill or prevent worms. I use garlic regularly - freshly squeezed in the water and believe it has great health benefits, but I worm my birds with moxidectin. I think the best way to prevent worms is to not allow your birds free loft. If they're on the ground pecking around they're going to get worms.

I treat for canker, too. Alternating with ridsol and metronidazole. If you know a natural product that guarantees no canker please tell me. None of these products are antibiotics. The only time I ever treat with antibiotics is for respiratory (doxycycline w/ tylan) usually about half way thru the race season when I see a few dirty nose wattles, hear rattles while breathing, and the air vent is enlarged, red and gaping for air. One or two times a year for a racer on antibiotics is not harmful. The guy who races weekly on the VitaKing stuff full of antibiotics is the one messing with mother nature - in my opinion. My breeders never get antibiotics and many recommend a course of baytril just prior to pairing. That's not for me. If they're well rested and given a good health program they don't need baytril.

Some other natural products that I like to use are cilantro and broccoli chopped up with a very small pinch of salt. Cilantro has excellent antibacterial properties and broccoli is good with antioxidants. I use two probiotics - one in the feed (BioMos) with flaxseed oil (omega 3s) and one in the water (ProBios) twice weekly. You can add brewers yeast, and whey to the feed also. Some use bee pollen, grapefruit seed extract, elderberry extract. I have not tried these but hope to integrate some into my program. I do ACV twice a week, and alternate a vitamin supplement once a week, like red cell one week, rooster booster the next and a generic poultry vitamin like Durvet.

Minerals are important. I give my birds trace minerals w/Concentrace in their water daily. You can mix it with ACV and ProBios. Different grits like the red brick stuff, oyster shell, pickstones, magnesium block, pink minerals ar all beneficial. I like to mix a cocktail of all these and my pigeons go crazy over them.

I like reading others' health programs and I'm always interested in any natural products that are being used.

birdy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

a clean loft. clean feed. and water will go so far. A good open loft or with good air exchange goes along ways. Health stays much better just by this. Preventive treatment is still ok. It helps . Birds today if you have recently aquired them could carry several things. pmv wasnt here twenty five years ago. But look at it now. What some people are learning today yes improved natural health . Can come along. If a person does not bring to many outside birds. The racing homer breeders. Some change strains very often. thinking the will do better. The breeders in europe. Most have bred a family of birds for many years to get to where they are. And they took care of there birds. But here in america. Not all but alot want to win NOW. they want to buy buy buy. That means that you expose more health problems to a loft. The good breeders. The ones that get what they can afford and build from there do not get mad when they lose a race. OR a show. Slowly builds a family of birds that can compete. And slowly builds stronger healthyer birds in the doing. So an over all practice improves natural health and better stock. But still meds as a tool can be used. Its just that it has to be a tool not required method. BUT yes I know of a few people that have over medicated there birds to the point that That meds made them sicker. People learn from others and mistakes. Good post


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't know why I didn't see this thread sooner, excellent!


*Prevention*

1.Prevention should be done, first and foremost with natural products, with the exception of a few important things (2, 3, 4) . The sole purpose of prevention, is to use natural products to keep a birds immune system working at peak performance, which will enable them from getting sick. Besides a varied diet of grains, seeds, legumes, birds should get regular maintenance doses of probiotics, multi-vitamins & minerals, ACV, garlic. These products do not leave side-effects, but need to be acurately measured.Also pick cake, and grits of various kinds. Keeping a coop clean, waterers and feeders clean, is part of this prevention.

Natural antibiotics, such as Neem oil, Reishi, garlic, can also be used for treating pigeons, with the benefit that you don't necessarily need a diagnosis. (You should still get an accurate diagnosis, especially if the condition is serious. ) They don't leave side-effects and actually help build a birds immune system. They can also be used at the same time, which is not always the same with drugs. I recommend them highly, but only certain products can be used, and also it is recommended they are used short term, with the exception of garlic.

If you know which bird has the suspicious poop, that shows either worms or disease, treat that bird only. Otherwise treat the flock, since they don't leave their name on their poop.

2.Innoculations for Paratyphoid, PMV, and Pox should be given to all birds who have any contact with the outside world, including racing, show pigeons, and those pigeons in the loft that are in contact with above pigeons, or newly acquired pigeons.

3.While garlic is a natural preventative in itself, it cannot be used solely for de-worming pigeons, and pigeons should be dewormed annually, depending on their contact with birds on the outside. Anything that kills parasites is lethal so be very careful when dosing. Annual worming should only be done on otherwise healthy birds, not youngsters. A sick bird should not be treated for worms unless, that is the cause of ill-health, and approved by a qualified avian vet. 

4. Also, preventive measures, medications, before breeding season and racing season can be used, to avoid, coccidiosis, canker, & salmonellas, etc., such as Globals Multi-Mix, 4 in 1, etc. These products should not be used on regular on-going basis, only once or twice a year. It is easy to compromise a birds immune system making them dependent on these products to maintain health, and also the products themselves become tollerated and will no longer work effectively, if used at random. If your birds are healthy, living in a well ventilated spacious loft, with sunlight, and they are not in contact with other birds, it may not be necessary. You can also take a random sample of birds poop, especially a suspicious looking one, and take it to the vet for analysis. You can treat the flock based on what you find, with one of the pigeon medications from one of the supply houses, or what the vet prescribes.

*Medicating*

Medicines should be used specifically to target specific deseases, with the approval of an avian vet or rehabber, once an accurate diagnosis is made. do not second guess, or diagnose by symptoms, unless you are sure of what the bird has.

Antibiotics, such as Baytril should not be used at random, only for specific diseases,such as Paratyphoid. Instructions should be followed carefully, as there are side effects when using any medication.

Please be sure to follow the sound advice of those on the forum who have knowledge of medications, or a qualified avian vet, but only after you have a diagnosis made by a fecal or other test.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't like to medicate unless a bird is obviously sick and then I try to do enough lab to figure it out or take it to the vet (which doesn't always provide a confirmed diagnosis, either). It's extremely rare that I put medications in the loft's water supply and usually only for canker when indicated (think I've done it 3 times in 5 years). I've never needed to mass-treat for worms.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I never treated my birds for worms or any other disease, but for those who's birds are in contact with others it is highly recommended.

I did treat the birds with a preventative once before breeding, but not any more, for mine it seems not to be necessary. They are already little "h_ _ _ on wheels" as it is...
.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

As I saw this thread pop back up to the top. I thought back Thinking about the birds in the early to late 60s. more people provide a flight coop /Aiviry For there birds. Lofts were not closed in as much. So fresh air exchanged readly to the lofts. Lofts stayed dryer more sunlight entered the lofts. Over all far less birds were sick .then more modern loft desighns came along. That provided better shelter to breed by BUT less air exchange less naturle light. Birds became more prone to spreading sickness. You also noticed back then very few people ever used much meds on there birds. Just feed and water. . NOW today in different lofts birds seem to be carriers of different types of desease. And yes it can be bred out over time. Pmv is a new thing from the early 80s That we see less today. Will it go away. It could if every bird from each loft was treated soon the need would go away. But it would be a world wide effert to do this. Birds get imune to there loft But when mixed at shows. At races they get exposed And bring it back to the loft. I still believe plenty of fresh air sunlight keeps birds much more lively . These birds in turn get sick far less then birds That are kept in crowded less lighting and less air exchange. But just my thoughts


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## armin369 (Jan 7, 2006)

yeah i know 
i mean how do they stay healthy when nobody is taking care of them?
they just fly around and find food
who said they need protein when they are going to have babies?
who feeds them protien when they are on their own and still their babies hatch fine....
or where do they find clean water or millets?

i think paying for those medicines is just waste of money


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Robert,

You are absolutely right, for those of us lucky to have spacious lofts, with ventilation and walk in aviaries, our birds do well. Sunlight and fresh air, is a natural remedy of itself.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

armin369 said:


> yeah i know
> i mean how do they stay healthy when nobody is taking care of them?
> they just fly around and find food
> who said they need protein when they are going to have babies?
> ...


Medicine is not a waste of money, it has its purpose and place, and should be used only when absolutely necessary.


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

Re lee has mentioned about how things were over 20 years ago. I had a quite a big loft back then (approx. 150 birds), and don't ever remember any disease that resulted in the loss of a single adult bird. And I got birds from many different places and didn't quarantine any of them!  I even had ferals join the loft and all seemed fine. I think I may have had a couple babies that didn't make it. I may have been too inexperienced to notice anything wrong, but there was none of this disease panic that exists today. I never used any meds back then. I bought the best feed I could get, kept the water clean, and let them out everyday. I must admit, when I got back into pigeons over a year ago, I felt so out of touch when I heard people talk about all these antibiotics and probiotics etc. Aside from PMV shot, the only med I use is Ivermectin, and only when I suspect somethings up. I do notice the birds don't seem as hardy as they were back then. In the short time I've had them now, I already had a bird with PMV and a few mysterious unexplained losses of what looked like perfectly healthy birds. Hatching rate is down as well. I think I'm going have to change my husbandry methods to reflect whats going on in the pigeon world today. All my birds seem healthy and happy now, but you never know. I do believe there is merit in the statement "survival of the fittest" when it comes to domesticated birds. I believe todays birds have become weakened genetically by all the inbreeding and medicating that has been going on for the last decade at least. Ferals look just as healthy today as they did 20 years ago... Confirms to me that Mother Nature always knows best


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it certainly can be a different story for a rehabber. Birds come to me that are in a horrible state--that's about the only reason that I get them, actually, so it's pretty important for me to own and responsibly operate a very serious war chest of meds and equipment. 

I have talked to some of the folks with big lofts around here who really do hit their entire lofts with Baytril on a somewhat regular basis. Once I mentioned that Levamisole (commonly used as a wormer) gave a temporary boost of sorts to the immune system to a racer and he said, "that must be why it gets a little bit of extra speed out of the birds when you give it a few days before a race!" I have never been able to disabuse these folks of the idea of doing stuff like that.

Pidgey


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