# Fledgling can't fly



## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Hi. I'm new here but need some help please. I have an 8-10 week old fledgling dove that for the last 4 weeks has been continually falling off the Dovecote table and unable to get enough height to fly back up. The cote is only 4 and a half feet off the ground. He eats and drinks really well and his poop seems quite normal. His right wing appears droopy, which I have only just noticed about 10 days ago. I have had him caged inside since then and was attempting to strap his wing when I realized he doesn't even walk right either. If it were human I'd say it was drunk. He falls forward and wobbles sideways and tries to flap his wings but never attempts to fly off. He's quite happy just sitting on me or back in his cage. It's like he has brain damage. There are no obvious signs of bone or animal injury but I can't have one of my lovely free-range birds caged forever. It's too cruel. . I'm in New Zealand and it's currently 2.45am so I may not come back to check this till much later tomorro. Lol.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Just quickly before you go. Can you post up a photo of this little one and one of his droppings to start? Do you have any meds or a vet that he can go to?

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

It is possible it could be one of these diesease or infections,Salmonellosis, Paramyxovirus infection, Streptococcus infection .


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Ooh none of that sounds good. I'd love to post a photo of those for you but i'm tucked up in bed myself. I'm away for 36 hours when i get up tomorro so i'll get onto that as soon as i get back. I have got a vet handy but he doen't profess to be knowledgeable about doves. I have friends at DOC (Department of Conservation) that have been guideing me so far. But they aren't dove people either. Only native NZ birds. My ones HAVE wings Lol.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Ooh none of that sounds good. I'd love to post a photo of those for you but i'm tucked up in bed myself. I'm away for 36 hours when i get up tomorro so i'll get onto that as soon as i get back. I have got a vet handy but he doen't profess to be knowledgeable about doves. I have friends at DOC (Department of Conservation) that have been guideing me so far. But they aren't dove people either. Only native NZ birds. My ones HAVE wings Lol.


can you take her to the vet? then they can guide you on what to test for and meds that may help ...and or supportive care if it is a virus.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez, in cases like this where there is not a lot of knowledgeable help available and the bird is sick, I generally recommend going with a safe and very broad spectrum antibiotic, and that would one called Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole (aka Bactrim or Septra). This medicine will treat for many of the bacteria that could cause some of the symptoms you describe, and if it were me, I would start treatment with this medicine and see if he starts to show improvement. Tell your vet the dose would be 50mg/kg BID (BID, means twice a day), you would want to treat for 10-14 days. 

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanx for that Karyn. Even a vet that doesn't do Doves must have a basic knowledge of birds. In 2 years of having my birds this is the only one i haven't been able to work out and help. I'll get it to the vet on Monday. And i'll get photos etc done when i get back tomorro. In the meantime he's quite safe and warm inside and eating well. So thats one less thing to worry about till then.


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Right, i'm back from the weekend away and may have solved one problem and gained another. - Firstly my flightless bird - is still unwell. While i was away i was talking about him and someone suggested checking him out for mites and spraying all the birds and the nests if i find any. I bought a mite spray on the way back today just in case and low and behold...what did i find when i looked but an infestation of the little blighters !! He has now been drenched in the spray and is resting for the rest of the night. He is still eating and drinking really well but now can't stand properly and when he tries to walk he just falls on to his chest and pushes himself around, chest to the floor. Its soo pathetic to watch. He's still really bright eyed and tries flapping his wings but just doesn't have the energy needed. When he stands, he leans backwards on something to prop himself up and stands bolt upright. 
Is any of this indicative of mite problems or do i still need to get him to a vet for something else??


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would at least get a sample of his droppings to the vet for them to test. They would need to check for parasites and for bacteria, keeping in mind that parasites don't always show up in a dropping sample. That way you would know what it is that you have to treat for.

Even a vitamin deficiency could cause symtoms such as these. Are they getting enough Vit D3 and calcium?


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Jay3 - Thanx. I'm not giving them any specific in the added minerals department. I feed poultry pellets, Dove seed mix and Oyster shell grit daily. Occasionally i'll grate garlic into the mix and/or ground sea salt. Now and then they get chickweed from the garden and vegetable peelings from our dinner. They are all free-range in the garden and regularly walk the grounds and peck as they go. 
I'm not disputing your assumptions but i've had these birds for 2 years and this is the only one so far with these symptoms. I have tried to check out my other birds tonight for mites and although i can't see definite signs, it was pitch black out there so i will treat them as if they have just in case.
Will my wee friend need an extra supplement of something to build his strength up again?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Jay3 - Thanx. I'm not giving them any specific in the added minerals department. I feed poultry pellets, Dove seed mix and Oyster shell grit daily. Occasionally i'll grate garlic into the mix and/or ground sea salt. Now and then they get chickweed from the garden and vegetable peelings from our dinner. They are all free-range in the garden and regularly walk the grounds and peck as they go.
> I'm not disputing your assumptions but i've had these birds for 2 years and this is the only one so far with these symptoms. I have tried to check out my other birds tonight for mites and although i can't see definite signs, it was pitch black out there so i will treat them as if they have just in case.
> Will my wee friend need an extra supplement of something to build his strength up again?


he is sick.. usually mites will not ground a bird.. you need to get him seperate in a medical cage and treat him with a broad spectrum antibiotic if you can not find out what he may be harboring.. the diet sounds fine..so he is ill.... if you can get him in a cage and keep check on the droppings they can tell you some things he may be harboring.. worms also can make them ill..


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Hi again. How do they get worms ? Am i doing something wrong ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez, days are going by and this little one's condition counties to worsen. I myself would not wait any longer before taking what we call a "shot-gun" approach and this means starting treatment with a very broad spectrum antibiotic to start, then perhaps de-worming a 3-4 days later if no positive response is seen to the AB treatment, as I mentioned earlier I would chose Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole (aka Bactrim or Septra) to do this. 

If your vet can do a fecal float/gram stain in house to check his droppings, this would be good, but depending on the skills and experience of the person doing the test, plus noting droppings can be unreliable at times for always being definitive in diagnosis, I would insist that the vet prescribe the anti-biotic (a second choice would be Baytril, but I prefer the Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole, as it will treat for cocci and Baytril won't), if nothing definitive turns up, to start treatment and see if he responds, JMHO. Also when this ill, they can a few different infections going on at the same time, so adding a broad spectrum anti-biotic in to the treatment regimen is almost aways a good idea. Please do not delay anymore, based on your description, I don't know if you have a lot of time to play with.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Hi again. How do they get worms ? Am i doing something wrong ?


from the ground or soil.. droppings of other animals.. flying insects.. it is not unusual for pigens to harbor worms..it is a natural thing.. but to keep infestation in check.. people will deworm their birds twice year.. if the worms get in too many numbers in their system..they can make them ill...but the bird sounds like it may need antibiotic as well..and be kept up untill he gets better.. and you can watch his droppings to see the health of the bird.. green water droppings are not good.. which is an example of something not right..


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanx guys, As i said when i started, we are off to the vet tomorro morning. I wasn't home and the vets weren't open over the weekend anyway, I've tried to do what i could to keep him warm and safe until then tho.

Good chance to bring up my second problem tho...before i left yestereday i went round to the loft to feed the birds and found my latest squab(5 weeks old) with a huge tear of skin on his neck and bleeding quite badly. I have no idea how it happened. I brought him in and cleaned him up with sterile water and iodine spray. I then boxed him up and took him with me to feed as i figured by leaving him with the the other birds he may well get picked on and injured more. I had nothing else but COMPLAN handy to feed him. Its a human meal replacement powder. Again, because i couldn't get to a vet till tomorro morning and get back to you guys here till now, i guessed giving him something was better than nothng. He has tolerated it well and is really perky and runs round all over the place. Even spent a lot of the road trip either on the parcel tray in the back of the car, on the passenger seat next to me or even in my lap. He wasn't having a bar of staying in the box!! Funny little thing. His wound is scabbing nicely and i have no real concerns for his impovement. I hope i haven't done any harm feeding him what i have. Where do you suggest i go from here with him ? Do i take him with me to the vet? How do i correctly modify his diet? And does he have to stay away from the other birds till he is completely healed? Does he need antibiotics as well?


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

And...how easy is it to deworm ?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Thanx guys, As i said when i started, we are off to the vet tomorro morning. I wasn't home and the vets weren't open over the weekend anyway, I've tried to do what i could to keep him warm and safe until then tho.
> 
> Good chance to bring up my second problem tho...before i left yestereday i went round to the loft to feed the birds and found my latest squab(5 weeks old) with a huge tear of skin on his neck and bleeding quite badly. I have no idea how it happened. I brought him in and cleaned him up with sterile water and iodine spray. I then boxed him up and took him with me to feed as i figured by leaving him with the the other birds he may well get picked on and injured more. I had nothing else but COMPLAN handy to feed him. Its a human meal replacement powder. Again, because i couldn't get to a vet till tomorro morning and get back to you guys here till now, i guessed giving him something was better than nothng. He has tolerated it well and is really perky and runs round all over the place. Even spent a lot of the road trip either on the parcel tray in the back of the car, on the passenger seat next to me or even in my lap. He wasn't having a bar of staying in the box!! Funny little thing. His wound is scabbing nicely and i have no real concerns for his impovement. I hope i haven't done any harm feeding him what i have. Where do you suggest i go from here with him ? Do i take him with me to the vet? How do i correctly modify his diet? And does he have to stay away from the other birds till he is completely healed? Does he need antibiotics as well?


I do not know if the second bird needs meds...it is hard to tell what it looks like as there is no picture of it..if your going to the vet then yes take him along..not sure if he needed stitching or not.. at 5 weeks old he should be eating what the adults do..


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Sweet. Thanx Spirit Wings. I'll start him on something small in the morning(which it nearly is now !!) I wasn't sure coz i know mum and dad are still feeding him. He has only appeared out of the nest this week. I tried getting a photo but couldn't get one in focus as he is so small. I am a nurse, and it is healing quite fast. They really are quite hardy wee things really aren't they ??

At what age do they change from squabs to fledglings ? And how do i go about dewormng?
Sorry for all the questions. Up until now i havent had any trouble wth these wee guys. We've all done very well. The previous owner i got my originals off moved to Australia and didn't give me alot of advice. So i'm learning as i go and haven't found a lot of places to go to get the right info.
So i do appreciate all your help. Thanx


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> And...how easy is it to deworm ?


easy... if you have a water source you can put the medication in pigeons water..but it has to be their only water source for that time period.. ask your vet what she/he would recommend for flock treatment for worms..you can do this twice a year and switch up kinds of dewormers to cover as many of the parasites as possible and to keep them from getting resistant to one medication.. for free flying birds I think that would be wise.. let us know what they say about your little one..would like to know what is going on with him.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

a young bird is usually weaned at about 4 weeks old..at 5 he is ready to eat what the adults do and should be picking up grains by now.. give him a croc of it and peck in it with your hand to get him interested as they learn from the parents.. he can also have defrosted corn or peas non salted..and you can give 20 to 30 pieces at a time when the crop is empty..


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Like fresh corn and peas that we eat ??


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Like fresh corn and peas that we eat ??


the frozen kind in a bag from the store...defrost to room temp and open his mouth and put in the back of the throat..and he will swallow them.. he may even start to pick some on his own..when he knows they are food for him..it is a good transition from that to the grains..keep the grains in with him also..so he gets used to those as well..and you can even pop a few of those down him too..to get him interested. when his crop is empty..


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Awesome. Sounds easy. Just like feeding kids !!
Deworming shouldn't be too much hassle either. They have 4 water troughs including 2 baths around the 2 cotes so they may just have to go dirty for a day or two thats all.
I've just checked the wee guy before i catch a couple of hours sleep, and while he still looks a bit bedraggled, he is still quite perky. Will let you know the results in a few hours. Thanx.


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## Emma B (Mar 21, 2011)

Jinglez - thanks for your message regarding Jasmine. I hope your little fella does ok and you got support from the vet. There are some extremely knowledgeable people on here - some of the names on your thread helped me when my bird was ill. It was really good to have not only some expert advice but some moral support from people who really care about the birds. Let me know how you get on. x


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez, the one other thing I would mention is, myself, I would not treat a bird in this weaken a condition for worms unless a firm positive diagnosis was make through a fecal examination. Then, I think the only de-wormer I would use would be Pyrantel Pamoate, as it is effective and may be the gentlest de-wormer on a bird's system. Worming birds can be taxing on them, with some de-worming meds being more so than others, so please keep this in mind with this little guy.

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanx Karyn and Emma. Yes fully agree, I'm learning so much in here. 
Sad news this morning. My wee guy has died overnight. Surprising, coz although injured he was much stronger and more lively than the older one. Too much stress maybe. But we're off to the vet at 16:00 today with the big guy. Hope I have more success there.


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Well I'm no better off today. The vet seems to think it's neurological suggesting lead poisoning which is crazy really. There is no where he could get that. The feed hasn't changed, the water is tap water and he is the only one with these symptoms. I did suggest looking at Paramyxovirus and she knew nothing about it and had to look it up. Only to find we don't have an antibiotic (i thought she said antivenum) here for that !! I don't believe that but anyway she is contacting a bird specialist in Christchurch tonight and will get back to me either tonight or tomorrow. The book said the only way of testing for Paramyxovirus was through a post mortem which I wasn't letting her do today understandably. I did ask her to do a blood test tho and she may do that Tomorro when she knows more.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Well I'm no better off today. The vet seems to think it's neurological suggesting lead poisoning which is crazy really. There is no where he could get that. The feed hasn't changed, the water is tap water and he is the only one with these symptoms. I did suggest looking at Paramyxovirus and she knew nothing about it and had to look it up. Only to find we don't have an antibiotic (i thought she said antivenum) here for that !! I don't believe that but anyway she is contacting a bird specialist in Christchurch tonight and will get back to me either tonight or tomorrow. The book said the only way of testing for Paramyxovirus was through a post mortem which I wasn't letting her do today understandably. I did ask her to do a blood test tho and she may do that Tomorro when she knows more.


Jinglez, they can get an infection called paratyphoid, which is an infection from salmonella bacteria, the old name for this is salmonellosis. One of the forms it can take is the neurological form and when it does this it can mimic many of the same neuro symptoms as Paramyxovirus virus (aka PMV/PPMV), as well as lead/heavy metal poisoning produce. 

Whatever they tell you about the results, as sometimes localized infections do not cause blood work to be really off, tell them you want to start empiric treatment with Baytril, as I think this may be a better choice now over the Trimethoprim/Sulfa. Empiric treatment is a medical way of saying let's try a particular treatment and see what the response is. Tell them there really is not much to loose, this is want you want and to please prescribe a weeks' amount worth. If he does respond you will need another weeks' worth of Baytril, as they should be treated for about 2 weeks when the have a paratyphoid infection.

Tell them as well, at least at my vet, that when a bird has heavy metal poisoning a broad spectrum antibiotic is almost always started, as well as chelation treatment, to prevent a secondary issue setting in on a weakened system.

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanx Karyn. I'll do that in the morning. 
How has he got this and are the others likely to get it too?
He's still eating furiously but he's not putting on any weight and his crop never seems full. The vet got me to supplement his seed with the same complan I was giving the wee squab mixed with porridge. He seems to like that too. But he's just soo pathetic at the moment it's too hard to watch.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Thanx Karyn. I'll do that in the morning.
> How has he got this and are the others likely to get it too?
> He's still eating furiously but he's not putting on any weight and his crop never seems full. The vet got me to supplement his seed with the same complan I was giving the wee squab mixed with porridge. He seems to like that too. But he's just soo pathetic at the moment it's too hard to watch.


Sometimes with people, and vets are people, we have a tendency to put information into the familiar and to try and match it to the knowledge base we already have. Most vets who do see avians, don't see a lot of pigeons/doves, but do see a good amount of Psittacines birds, such as parrots, cockatiels and cockatoos, and these guys are pretty notorious chewers and are known to chew things can contain heavy metals, and as mentioned, the acute symptoms would be very like what your Dove is displaying. This may be why they are thinking metal poisoning, because they have seen these symptoms before in birds who have been ill with heavy metal poisoning, and while not outside the realm of possibilities, would not be something to be commonly expected in a Dove. Also, don't forget, an owner can sometimes get to request/chose treatment options, and unless what is being requested is reckless and ill advised, which you requesting to try Baytril would not be IMHO, then if you push a bit, they should grant your request.

The voracious appetite you mention, with little to no weight gain, can be indicative of a worm infection (but not of heavy metal poisoning, as a bird may become anorexic if poisoned with heavy metals). Did they do a fecal examine on your little guy? Again, as mentioned before, they can have a few different infections at the same time and it would not be an uncommon finding to have a bird that could be infected with salmonella also have a worm infection. If you are going back collect a a number of droppings from this guy to take in, as sometimes they do not shed eggs in every dropping and if you mix many droppings together it increases the chances of finding worm eggs in the fecal exam, if they are present.

Please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Well I'm no better off today. The vet seems to think it's neurological suggesting lead poisoning which is crazy really. There is no where he could get that. The feed hasn't changed, the water is tap water and he is the only one with these symptoms. I did suggest looking at Paramyxovirus and she knew nothing about it and had to look it up. Only to find we don't have an antibiotic (i thought she said antivenum) here for that !! I don't believe that but anyway she is contacting a bird specialist in Christchurch tonight and will get back to me either tonight or tomorrow. The book said the only way of testing for Paramyxovirus was through a post mortem which I wasn't letting her do today understandably. I did ask her to do a blood test tho and she may do that Tomorro when she knows more.


another clueless Vet.. that is too bad... this is the time when help from this site is so important..and the only option for some people..


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Hi. Yeah she did examine his poop. Almost on demand he produced a very normal formed poo. She took a slide of it to look at later. I'm about to ring her now and catch her up on your advice. Thanx.


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Ok. So the serology has ruled out paramyxovirus and paratyphoid. The guy at the lab has been awesome and rang me back himself to talk to me. He says the i diction is a vitamin E deficiency and we are off to the vet for an injection in an hour. He wanted to do the blood work ASAP because it is a notifiable disease here. So he wasn't trying to find an easy way out. The faces test came back normal as well. 
It all sounds too simple to me. I pushed for the antibiotics but with the indications not showing any reason for it they wouldn't do it. 
We'll try the vitaminE and see where he goes from there. She did suggest to just put the oil in his food but as he has been sick for so long I'd rather get something into him that will boost him up quicker. 
More update later.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez, do you think you could ask them what specific serology test they ran to rule out paratyphoid and if they did a CBC panel, do you think you could ask for a copy of all of the results and post them? Can you ask them if they did a fecal smear or a fecal float test?

Their thought that it may be a vitamin E deficiency is not a bad call, and certainly worth trying supplementation with, as low levels/malabsorption of this vitamin can cause muscle weakness, such as your little guy is exhibiting, and is well described in cockatiels as "Cockatiel Paralysis Syndrome". The one issue with this call, that I can see, is that because low levels of vitamin E affect the muscles all over the body, causing weakness, since the ventriculus (gizzard) is essential one big seed grinding muscle, one of the indicators looked for in seed eating birds of this deficiency is whole seeds/poorly ground seeds being passed by the bird in question in their droppings. Your bird has been passing, to your words, "produced a very normal formed poo", and in doing so, may be less suggestive of low vitamin E being the cause of your birds ills.

Your vet first thought lead poisoning, now thinks low vitamin E, kind of meaning to me that they really are not sure what the heck is wrong, perhaps the blood results are not strongly indicative enough to point to a diagnosis, so they are going to try vitamin supplementation, I really hope this works. I am in that same boat as well, not really sure what is going on with your little guy, but have my thoughts. I suggested, and still do feel, a course of Baytril would not be a bad way to go, to test response to AB treatment, but they think otherwise, so here we are. I have an appointment later in the week with my vet and I will speak to him about your bird, if you could get up any of the test results done on your guy, this may be helpful.

Just to review, how many birds are in your Dovecote, and are any other bird(s) looking a bit off, do they all eat the same food; poultry pellets, Dove seed mix and oyster shell grit? Just to make sure we are not missing anything, could you have a good look and smell of all three items for any off odors, discoloration or see if there is any moisture that could have gotten to their storage.

Also, if you could, a photo may be helpful to have a look at this little guy in person.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's not likely it (Hypovitaminosis E). More likely it's some kind of bacterial infection that has colonized the motor control center. Or... there might have been an infection that was taken care of by the immune system that left damage in the fight. They can end up with epilepsy over deals like that--I know, I've acquired a few over the years like that. For many of them, there won't be any fixing the condition, just dealing with the effects on a daily basis.

That said, I'd run the little fellow through a few antibiotic therapies over the course of the next month and a half to see if it fixes it and then go on with life from there. I've got one little fellow like you're describing that normally lives about half the time in the loft and the other half in the house as a housepet. He has REALLY taken to enjoy being picked up and petted. He also will occasionally beg for shredded cheese (yeah, I know... ).

Pidgey


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Hi. Well i went on a wild goose chase this afternoon. The vet i'd been seeing wasn't there so i had to explain everything to the male vet. They'd discussed it all this afternoon so he had no better ideas than she had. But after waiting for 40minutes they couldn't find the Vitamin E after all. So we have to go back again tomorro to get it...if it arrives !! He was doing a lot of talking about Vitamin E deficiency affecting the myelin sheath of the CNS. Not affecting the muscles. So even with the injection it will take up to 2weeks to show any signs of the bird improving because it would take at least that long for the myelin sheath to repair itself providing it was that problem to start with.
I don't know, i'm so frustrated with it all. I just want to help the poor little thing.

I have tried to upload some photos but i'm waiting for a security clearance to add photos to the albums on this site. When they come up they are of his poop, how he sits (it looks worse than he is because i had just treated him with the mite solution) and how he gets around on the floor by pushing himself around on his chest and pushing with his feet. Its quite funy really but not very nice to watch.

To answer your questions Karyn - I curently have 53 birds. in 2 dovecotes. None of the others have any symptoms at all. The fresh fledglings often fall off the edge in their first week out but thy get the hang of it. This little fella had trouble from th start just getting enough height to get back up. When i got back from the vet on Monday the first thing i did was went right through the sacks of food to see if there was any nasty things lurking in the feed. Their water is changed daily and the cotes hosed down daily. I scrub them clean every couple of months. And i do believe the lab tech did say he did a faecal smear of the poo. Whats the difference with that and a faecal float?

Please don't think i'm not extremely grateful for your advice. I am...very. Thank you. I have shown both vets your posts and tried from my end to get them to follow your suggestions. They both have said their knowledge of these birds is limited and yet have continued to go with their own diagnosis. So frustrating. I sensed a bit of distrust when i first brought it up. I just hope it is not all to the birds detriment.

I'll post when the photo album is up and going. Its called 'Droopy bird' if you get to it first. 

Fiona


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Pidgey - does he still fly? I'd hate to think they lose that, a bird that can't fly is like a hat without a head. 

And what causes it ? Is it something i've done?

I remembered this afternoon, this birds sibling,(i don't know what else to call it), who is absolutely fine and flying with the adults now, was born with black tail feathers. The only one i've got like it. With both of them odd like that could it be a genetic thing? The chicks that hen has had both before and after these ones have been fine.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The difference between a fecal float and a fecal smear is that a float is used to "float" worm eggs and coccidial oocysts to determine the presence of those types of parasites. A fecal smear will usually show other things like the presence of fungi and certain types of bacteria and the ratio of long rod bacteria to short ones. Staining can help get an idea of whether the balance is primarily Gram positive or negative, too.

I don't think I'd hose the cote down daily. Pigeons do better in dusty dry cote conditions because many bacteria and parasites need dampness to grow and "ripen".

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He will hover in his short exercise periods like pigeons often do. In his semi-epileptic fits, though, he gets a tad confused which way is up (like experiencing vertigo). Flying and vertigo don't go too well together. So... he walks everywhere. Many times a day, he'll run while holding his wings in somewhat of an extension. I suppose he imagines that as flying a little bit. I have picked him up before and zoomed him around the house and he seems to enjoy it.

However... his favorite thing is to lounge in sunlight kinda' rolled onto one side. He does, on occasion, "doze". For quite some time I wondered if this was a sign of his chronic illness so I gave it a shot myself to see what it felt like (dozing in a sunbeam). I've concluded that it might not be all that bad and have since performed a very great deal of continuing investigation in the behavior. Maybe he's not sick at all... 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Pidgey


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Sorry, wrong wording. The main dovecote sits on a large platform which I hose down daily to keep the poo from piling up !! And yeah I do hose the poo off the shelves as well.
Some of the nests have inches thick of material in them. Is it gonna do any harm to remove this occasionally? When I first got the cote one nest was so thick that no birds could fit through the hole so I broke it all up and removed it and no birds have been in it yet in over a year !!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's better to scrape and sweep, actually.

Pidgey


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanx, I'm probably asking really dumb questions but i was left to flounder on my own with these guys when i took them on so i'm still learning heaps. I wish i'd found this 2 years ago.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> When they come up they are of his poop, how he sits (it looks worse than he is because i had just treated him with the mite solution) and how he gets around on the floor by pushing himself around on his chest and pushing with his feet. Its quite funy really but not very nice to watch. Fiona


Fiona, I am note sure of exactly how things are set up, but If you haven't done it already, it may be best to get this little gut inside set up in a hospital cage (a small cage, with not a lot of room to move around) with an old terry cloth towel to cover the bottom, and food and water dishes of course, glad all the others seem fine.

In one of the avian medical books I have, Clinical Avian Medicine and Surgery, by Harrison and Harrison, in the section on Vitamin E deficiency where a Cockatiel was receiving this treatment one of the quotes is "The response to injection is so dramatic in this case that improvement is evident in the bird before the client leaves the office." So I am not sure how accurate their saying it may take a few weeks to see any results, plus nowhere in my reading (I have done quite a bit ) does it speak about a vitamin E deficiency causing demylineation of the myelin sheath. 

I think your vets aren't really sure, and giving you some academic language to make it sound like things are under control, but I myself much prefer it when my vet says, he just is not sure. Plus, you are right, depending on their disposition and outlook on things, there are vets that don't like the clients scouring the Internet and bringing them in a bunch of printouts of what may be the problem, I would have given you a heads-up to this, if I new you were printing out the posts. You are going to have to be careful, going forward, not to get their backs up too much.

Out of curiosity, in Australia there is an over the counter antibiotic called Sulfa 3, since you are "down under" as well , do they sell this in any of your local pet stores, also where you are located, do they have any larger tropical fish stores?

http://www.vetproductsdirect.com.au/itemdesc.asp?ic=Sulfa3

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Karen - I hav had the wee guy inside with me since last thursday in a cat cage with his food and water and a hot water bottle as we are fast approching winter!! He like to eat with me holding me him to support his weight. I'd like to make up a cradle to hold him up because his little legs don't bend too well and when he sits he lies on his chest with his legs holding his tail end up. Must be so uncomfortable.

I will ring the pet shop in the morning as it is now 5 am. And Yes they do have a large tropical fish selection. Odd question ????

I haven't printed out our conversations, i took in my ipod and waved it under their nose but they wern't too interested in readng anything but they were there for my back up as they had said they didn't know exactly what it was to start with. They were both pretty good about me doing my own research tho.

So my play for tomorro is to go along with them and have the vitamin E injection AND demand a start on an AB as well. Her theory of not going with the AB was that it can destroy other good bacteria as well but I'm with you, i think thats what he needs.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Karen - I hav had the wee guy inside with me since last thursday in a cat cage with his food and water and a hot water bottle as we are fast approching winter!! He like to eat with me holding me him to support his weight. I'd like to make up a cradle to hold him up because his little legs don't bend too well and when he sits he lies on his chest with his legs holding his tail end up. Must be so uncomfortable.
> 
> I will ring the pet shop in the morning as it is now 5 am. And Yes they do have a large tropical fish selection. Odd question ????
> 
> ...


The reason they don't want to start to AB therapy is because they can destroy the good bacteria, as well as the bad, do they know that probiotics can be given after therapy to rebuild the guts' beneficial bacteria?.. never heard that used as an excuse before, interesting. 

Anyway, the reason I asked about a tropical fish store/section as there are a number of fish antibiotics over here that can be used in birds, when other avenues of obtaining some are limited, so I am just looking for options for you, but from what I gather, they are more restrictive on your side of the world, so this may not be as much as an option, but do also look into the Sulfa 3, as this over the counter in your neck of the woods. 

Also, you can check with family members/friends if they, their children or their pets have been on, or are on antibiotics, as many of the same meds used in humans and other types of pets can be used on our birds. Not sure why they are so resistant, but see what you can do, as mentioned, I would go with Baytril right now.

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Our medicines for both humans and animals are VERY restrictive here.

What about homeopathic treatments ??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Our medicines for both humans and animals are VERY restrictive here.
> 
> What about homeopathic treatments ??


Yes, understood, that's why I wanted you to inquire of people in your "people circle" if they, their children or pets have been prescribed antibiotics and could spare some or have any left. Also, there are times a certain antibiotic may be prescribed and not agree with someone, who may have a full prescription around of an antibiotic they can not use, never hurts to check. I am afraid for what may be needed for your little guy, homeopathic treatments would not be a viable option for us. Let's hope your vet has a change of heart with regards to trying AB treatment (or you can twist their arm a bit ), but best to explore other options, just in case.

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Ok. so if i find some AB's what dosage do i go with?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Ok. so if i find some AB's what dosage do i go with?


Depends on the antibiotic you find. To tell you the truth, some will be better for what we are trying to do, than others, so if you do find an antibiotic(s), do continue to ask everyone in your "circle", so we may have an option of choosing which one would be best. Let me know which one(s) you find, I'll tell you which would be best and how to mix it up for you with your Dove, and if we do go this route, you will need a 1cc syringe, the kind without a needle attached. Also, if you fail at your vets, get your little guy's weight off his chart, as we will need this to be accurate in his dosing, if we manage to get through the other way.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Ha ha. You're assuming that they weighed him !!!

They didn't do that either. 

Its ok. I'll do that myself.


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Ok. I have 30 capsules of Flucloxacillin
12 TABLETS of Synermox
and 12 capsules of Probioplex - for after having AB's


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might want to post the sizes of those pills... that is, how much medicine does each pill contain in milligrams. The Flucloxacillin is a type of Penicillin that's resistant to Beta Lactamase; the Synermox is actually a version of the Amoxicillin/Clavulanic Acid combination that we usually call "Clavamox" around here.

Pidgey


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Sorry was waiting to see if they were suitable first.

Flucloxacillin Sodium Ca 500mg (AFT)
Synermox 500/125 mg


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Fiona, don't know what Pidgey thinks, but although not my first choice, I would like a fluoroquinolone (Cipro, Baytril, Norfloxacin even Levofloxacin), I think we may be able to give it a go with the Synermox 500/125 mg (Clavamox, Augmentin). You are doing good, keep checking to see if you come up with some Cipro most common fluoroquinolone prescribed for humans, (as well as what else you find). So, see where you are at with the vet, and we'll know where we are at, and what we have to do. Mixing the pill up will be easy, running out right now, will check in later, make sure you get a 1cc syringe.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Floxacillin (also Flucloxacillin) is pretty narrow-spectrum. It works well against Staph aureus and generally Gram positives, but we don't usually go gunning with narrow-spectrum antibiotics for a first round unless it's the only thing we've got (that's how it works in practice). That said, the Synermox would be the typical one that we'd go with in a lot of cases. Here, I'd rather have an antibiotic that was both wide-spectrum AND crosses the Blood Brain Barrier like Doxycycline, Minocycline or Chloramphenicol.

See if you can acquire those locally.

Pidgey


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Well today was a complete dead loss.

They've had to order in the Vitamin E injection and its gotta come from out of town so nothing happened today.

I've done th big ring around everyone i know and no one has any left over anything ...so i struck out there too. 

Not a good day all round...Birdie isn't eating today either.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Fiona, let's start the Synermox, as time keeps slipping away here. Take two of the pills and crush them up into as fine a powder as you can, to do this I use a shot-glass to measure alcohol and the end of a small, rounded-end kitchen knife I have, you are doing a mortar & pestle thing. When crushed, as best you can, add 10mL of honey to this, you can use a cooking measuring teaspoon (5mL) twice (must be a cooking teaspoon, not a common flatware teaspoon), stir well for a minute, let sit for 20 minutes, stir well again, and it will be ready for use. You will have a 12.5% Amoxicillin/Clavulanate suspension to use, 125mg/mL. I want you to give your Dove 0.10cc, with the 1cc syringe (to the first line, this will be 12.5mg) for ever 100g he weighs, to give you a reference, this will be about two drops worth and do this every 12 hours, so twice a day. Stir very well before each use and keep in the refrigerator between use.

If you do not have a 1cc syringe you can you an eyedropper for now, just find a way to get the right amount of drops into him for his weight until you can pick one up.

Call the pet store, with the Tropical fish section, and see if they have a fish med call Maracyn-Two by Mardel, this is Minocycline, if they do not have this, ask what antibiotics they do have in stock for fish and also still look into the Sulfa 3. Also, do keep making inquiries, ask your friends and family to ask their friends and family to see if you can come up with a few Cipro pills, Trimethoprim/Sulfa (many names, but a few common ones are Septra, Bactrim, Sulfatrim and Cotrimoxazole) or Doxycycline.


Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Oh yeah ...and we can't get Sulph3 here either. Anything with a medicinal quality is restricted and only available with perscription.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, still check the fish section, you never know, are you OK with the instructions?

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Right i'm onto that Karyn. How often does he get this ?


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Ok. That's done. Thank you so much Karyn. He was 229 gms so he got just slightly more than 0.20cc.
I hate to even think it but I fear he is much worse tonight. I've had to eye dropper his water into him all afternoon and he's showing signs of fitting now. Poor wee guy. 

He's tucked up with his hot water bottle for the night now and so will I be shortly as I was up all night talking to you guys. Thats the problem with being on opposite sides of the world !! Don't ya just luv technology? 
Thanx again and I hope we got to him in time. I'll be back in 8 hours with the morning report.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

He will get this every 12 hours, let's hope for the best. As mentioned before, the Amoxicillin/Clavulanate, would not be the first choice here, as it does not have the penetration other antibiotics have, so do push a bit with family and friends and see what else you come up with. Tell the vet this little guy has really deteriorated and it's now salvage therapy time with him, which basically means, he is dying and there is nothing to be lost trying a treatment to see what happens, as doing nothing certainly means dying and there could be a chance with trying something.

If they wanted to really help the could give him a injectable shot of Doxycycline, called Virbravenos by Pfizer, it is an injectable form of Doxycycline with a very long activity period (one shot will last 7 days, dose is 75mg/kg IM, if no injectable, see if they will give oral Doxy as well as Baytril) and also put him on oral Baytril as well. Baytril and Doxycycline are well known to work synergistically together and using both of these meds right now would give him the broadest coverage. Please keep us updated.


Good luck,

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

He's made it through another night. Haven't head from the vet yet but it is due to arrive this morning. 
I've finally worked out how to upload the photos too. Go to my abums to view them. You'll agree he looks quite pathetic. More so in that i haven't bathed him since the mite treatment so his tail feathers are still filthy from walking around on the ground in the dirt.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> He's made it through another night. Haven't head from the vet yet but it is due to arrive this morning.
> I've finally worked out how to upload the photos too. Go to my abums to view them. You'll agree he looks quite pathetic. More so in that i haven't bathed him since the mite treatment so his tail feathers are still filthy from walking around on the ground in the dirt.


Fiona, don't worry, we are much more concerned about getting this guy past this crisis, not how pretty he looks right now. The dropping looks surprisingly good, and while I don't want to build your hopes up too much, from the pictures, his eye does not yet have the look of a bird I know does not have very long to live, so we may have a bit of time, how much, I am not sure. See what you can do with the vet, keep him warm, hydrated and hand feed him for now and we'll do our best for him, and keep up the Amoxicillin/Clavulanate of course.

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Yay yay yay. 
We've had the Vitamin E injection ( at no charge !) AND 1mm of Doxycycline and .1ml of baytril with 10 days worth to administer myself. 
He's not interested in food today and struggling with his breathing now so I can only hope we haven't left it too late. He fits occasionally too. He's still really alert tho so it's still promising.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jinglez said:


> Yay yay yay.
> We've had the Vitamin E injection ( at no charge !) AND 1mm of Doxycycline and .1ml of baytril with 10 days worth to administer myself.
> He's not interested in food today and struggling with his breathing now so I can only hope we haven't left it too late. He fits occasionally too. He's still really alert tho so it's still promising.


Fiona, I wish they would have done this days ago, let's do hope it was not left too late to bring him back, not much more to do now than to keep him warm, support him by hand with food and water and give him his meds, and we'll see how things go, and we'll say a little prayer for him. Glad you finally got through with them.

Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanx so much Karyn. I don't want to be overly optomistic just yet but he's a lot brighter tonight. He's trying to flap a bit and I got him standing on his own legs without support and no wobbles. He's still hyperventilating a bit and isn't eating much either. I don't like to force him but he's getting little and often. When I settle him in his cage he always scoots himself round to lie with his head over the food dish so he could well be eating a lot more than i see. 
But we'll just keep plugging on. It feels so much better now that I've got that small amount done for him. The rest is up to him now.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Just keep doing what you are doing and keep up the good support for him, a little food more often, is the right thing for him. He is/has been very ill, so if we are going to bring him back it may take a bit of time, but a little brighter looking, is always a lot better to hear, than a little worse looking anytime. He could not be on two better meds for respiratory ills than the Doxycycline and the Baytril together. Check with the vet, and if they did to full blood work on him, can you post up his calcium and potassium levels. Just a few more words on hydration, please encourage him to drink by dipping his beak into tepid water, and if need be, using an eyedropper or syringe to dribble water to the side of his beak, lots of fluids will help him flush his body.


Karyn


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Bugger. My little friend died overnight. Poor wee thing. Maybe it was just wishful with his signs of improvement last night. The bird specialist in Christchurch wants him for an autopsy so it will be VERY interesting to see was comes of that. Thanx to everyone Especially Karyn, who tried to help us. Shame I had to struggle with vets. Maybe they'll listen to me better next time. Will keep you posted on the autopsy results.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darn, Fiona, I was hoping I wouldn't have to read this kind of news on your little guy. I am so very sorry. Time just kept on drifting for this little guy and you were doing your very best for him, and as you said, struggling with the vets. I certainly would be interested as well what a post-mortem would show was wrong with this poor little fellow, it may help others in the future. Please accept my sincerest condolences for your loss.

Karyn


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## Emma B (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear this Jinglez - you really did try everything for him, you can't do more than that. RIP little sweetheart. xx


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## Jinglez (Apr 8, 2011)

Hi guys,
Finally got the autopsy result today on my wee friend. It seems so long ago now.

I don't understand how we could not get a better result. I'm really dissapointed. 
I know we thought we had a handle on it but it still isn't very conclusive at all.

Meantime, the rest of my troop are fine and happily laying more eggs and hatching babies - in the middle of winter !!!! Poor little things. 

Thanx again
Fiona

Adding autopsy result to my albums.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that autopsy (necropsy in the animal world) result wasn't helpful at all.

We, as rehabbers, often have to face the fact that sometimes nothing we do actually helps. Those cases usually gut us pretty badly.

Pidgey


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