# Typical NooB What color question



## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Hello,

Just found this forum. I have been reading and looking at the different colors and wondering if anyone can help me ID mine? Here is a picture of them. The red is a male and the blue is a female.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

The red is a recessive red with piebald genes causing the white in the flights, tail, chin, etc. He may also be a mottle, depends on his age. Might get more white in the wing shield. The other is a dilute blue check. Dilute blue is commonly called silver in genetic terms.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Thank you. Does that mean that I will get the following colors if bred?

Cocks - Recessive Red NonDilute Carrying Silver
Hens - Recessive Red Dilute

Assuming the Recessive Red with Piebald genes isnt carrying any blue or brown. Just thought I would take a stab in the dark instead of just asking 

Again, thanks in advance.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well merited but no. You can call your red a red splash is fitting enough. Anyways this is how it breaks down. Unless you silver check has a gene for recessive red, meaning that gene has been past down by a parent then you will not get any reds out of the two. Recessive red covers what a pigeon really is. There are three base colors in pigeons ash red, blue, and brown. The recessive red is still one of those three. There are a lot of unknowns in a breeding like this if you just buy the birds. A lot can be hidden. We don't know what's under the red. You will not have any dilutes unless the cock has a gene for it. You will however if he doesn't get all you male offsprings carrying the gene for it. Then the piebald in the red will probably be showing up in a lot of the offspring. In situations like this we can only spot what factors we see are involved but the phenotype, what the bird looks like, has to remain unknow till breeding. Then after some young the parents exact genes can be better understood.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Great. I will take a look at your response in detail and figure out where I went wrong. I am trying to understand how everything works. I do plan to breed them so I'll be back with pictures of the off springs to see if we can determine any hidden genes in the parents 

I find it interesting and fascinating trying to figure it out.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

And to make sure, the recessive cock can still be ash red, blue, or brown? I thought that just because it was a recessive red that it would automatically put it in the ash red category.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

They could be blue, in some breeds it may just be ash red. Depends on the breed but plenty of reds out there are on blue based birds. I have many recessive red flying tipplers which are all blue based. Some argue the bird needs to be ash red based in order to have a quality recessive red. I think you can get decent reds out of blues but it takes more selection and a more complex genotype. Anyways, genetics can be taught a lot by just reading it up. I would google search "pigeon genetics" and hit every website and really work the searches. Don't ever be afraid to ask questions if you don't understand something. That being said also try to search out the answer on your own to see if it's easily out there. That's how I try to do it atleast. Pigeon genetics is like the rest of the pigeon world, knowledge is scattered amoung a verity of places.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Recessive red is of course recessive so birds need two copies of the gene to show. The cockbird can only pass one RR gene to his offspring, so unless the hen is carrying RR, none of the kids will show it. However, they will all carry the gene and be able to pass it on to their kids.

Dilute is sex-linked. That means it is only carried on the X chromosome. In birds, the hen is XY and the cockbird is XX (which is the complete opposite from mammals). Therefore, regardless of whether a gene is dominant or recessive, if it is sex-linked, it will show if a hen has it. That also means she only has that one copy to pass on to the cockbirds. The daughters cannot get anything sex-linked from their mothers. That is because one chromosome comes from dad, and one from mom. Daughters can only get the Y from mom, so the X, and thus all the sex-linked stuff, can only come from dad. As you can see, the sons get sex-linked stuff from both parents.

So, assuming that your red cockbird is not carrying dilute and assuming your silver hen is not carrying recessive red, here is what you'll get:

If the cockbird is blue underneath the RR:
Sons: Blue carrying dilute and RR
Daughters: Blue carrying RR

If the cockbird is pure ash-red under the RR:
Sons: Ash-red carrying blue, dilute, and RR
Daughters: Ash-red carrying RR

If the cockbird is ash-red carrying blue:
Sons: 50% blue, 50% ash-red, all of which carry dilute and RR
Daughters: 50% blue, 50% ash-red, all of which carry RR

If the cockbird is brown:
Sons: Blue carrying brown, dilute, and RR
Daughters: Brown carrying RR

If the cockbird is blue carrying brown:
Sons: 50% blue carrying dilute and RR, 50% blue carrying dilute, RR, AND brown
Daughters: 50% blue, 50% brown, all of which carry RR


Piebald markings can be variable in the offspring.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Off the subject, but that is a very creative nest box in the picture.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

MaryOfExeter - Thank you very much. I did a lot of reading last night but will review your thoughts in details and make sure I understand them as well.

almondman - $1  Went to the local dollar store and bought the basket. Grabbed some strings and attached it to the cage. They seem to like it so far.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

I finally got my two last pair today.

Here is pair #1:









Here is the cockbird for pair #1:

View attachment 23831


Here is the hen for pair #1:

View attachment 23832


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Here is pair #2:

















These guys are cream bars?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah they are Cream bars which is Ash red Bar with dilute. I see some light checking above the bars but this seems common in my rollers and so far breeding tests show they are not carrying sooty. I am not sure if the gene but I have seen it a lot in my blue bar racers aswell and they are definetly not sooty


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Great info. Thank you very much. The other ones look like a light gray. What color can I use for those?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sorry what other ones?


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

The gray ones. I posted a total of 3 pairs. Blue and Red, the creams, and then some other lighter brownish/gray ones.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

astronoc said:


> The gray ones. I posted a total of 3 pairs. Blue and Red, the creams, and then some other lighter brownish/gray ones.


I think the last pair might be khaki and ash-red, but it is difficult to tell from the pictures. Ash yellow (cream) and khahki can look very similar in pictures (to me at least) - in normal sunlight they are more easily distinguished though.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

I'll take better pictures for a second look.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Brown and khahki birds show a lot of bleaching due to the sun (escpecially on their primary flights). If you spread the wing and see a very distinct bleaching of the tip of these feathers (where they were not protected from the sun by overlapping feathers) you definitely have brown/khaki.

Ash-red and it's mimics show none (or very little of this bleaching effect). It is the easiest way to tell them apart.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

The Silver hen and the Red cockbird had their eggs hatch today. I'll post pictures later on.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

They are growing quick. I wonder if the yellow feathers will turn white.

View attachment 24131


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

The one baby is definitely dilute. Notice the difference in down length. This means the cock is split for dilute, and that this baby is definitely a hen.

I do not see the yellow feathers you are talking about, only yellow down! Maybe there is a difference between what you can see with the naked eye and what the picture shows on the monitor.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

You are right. I was referring to yellow down. Just didnt know what it was called. Some of the pin feathers are starting to open up today.

That means the following is true:

If the cockbird is ash-red carrying blue:
Sons: 50% blue, 50% ash-red, all of which carry dilute and RR
Daughters: 50% blue, 50% ash-red, all of which carry RR

Can the blue dilute be a male? How do you know its a female? Just wanting to learn.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Always the most exciting time! To see what the actual color will be.

Sometimes one is able to discern red versus blue before the feathers unfurl, but I have been wrong a couple of times.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

astronoc said:


> You are right. I was referring to yellow down. Just didnt know what it was called. Some of the pin feathers are starting to open up today.
> 
> That means the following is true:
> 
> ...


Not unless there is a very unlikely crossover, but let's not get into that 

Dilute is sex-linked, meaning it is only carried on the X chromosome. In birds males are XX and hens are XY (which is opposite from mammals like ourselves). Males get one X from mom and the other from dad. Hens get their only X from dad because they get the Y from mom.

So, if a cockbird is carrying dilute, he will pass it on to half of the offspring. The sons will get one dilute X from dad and one normal X from mom. Because dilute is recessive, it needs two copies of the gene to show. So these sons will carry it but not show it. However, the hens only have one X, so anything carried on that chromosome will show. If they had two "slots" for the genes to go, then the more dominant one would show. But that is not the case.

Therefore, any dilute babies from the pair will be hens  The only way you should get dilute sons from the pair is if the momma happened to be dilute too.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Dope. I forgot it was sex linked.

Mary you are awesome. Thank you!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Not unless there is a very unlikely crossover, but let's not get into that
> 
> Dilute is sex-linked, meaning it is only carried on the X chromosome. In birds males are XX and hens are XY (which is opposite from mammals like ourselves). Males get one X from mom and the other from dad. Hens get their only X from dad because they get the Y from mom.
> 
> ...


Just a little note on the names of the sex chromosomes in birds:

Humans (and other mamals) are XX (female) and XY (male). This is called an XY sex determination system. Birds on the other hand (as Mary said) have the situation reversed, where the male has two similar chromosomes and the female has two different chromosomes. Correctly the chromosomes are not called X and Y though, they should be called Z and W. The males are ZZ and the females as ZW. 

See this wikipedia article for more details.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

The second chick has brownish/reddish colors. I'll post more pictures later but does that mean the female is also recessive for red?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Becky and Rudolph, I thought these young came from a silver hen and a red cock. I would think the dilute could be a hen or a cock based on the mum being dilute aswell, Or Do I have the parents of these young wrong?


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Here they are a couple of days older. There is that red I mentioned earlier. Looks like one will look like mom and the other one will look like dad.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

astronoc said:


> Here they are a couple of days older. There is that red I mentioned earlier. Looks like one will look like mom and the other one will look like dad.
> 
> View attachment 24164


Yeah looks like it, Either bird could be either sex by the way. Because you have a cockbird carrying dilute and a dilute hen they can produce dilute offspring in either sex.

Also looks like the silver hen mum carries rec red.


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## astronoc (Apr 30, 2012)

Hmmm. Could the hen and cockbird be siblings then?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

astronoc said:


> Hmmm. Could the hen and cockbird be siblings then?


Its possible, If they came from a rec red and a het rec red or two het rec reds that could produce the two parents birds you have there.


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