# Roller Pigeon Fanciers Charged .. Pay Attention Folks



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=BE935795-974F-4768-DE4A89664B1CFC29

SEVEN CALIFORNIA ‘ROLLER PIGEON’ ENTHUSIASTS CHARGED WITH KILLING, OR HELPING TO KILL, PROTECTED HAWKS AND FALCONS 

News Releases Home Page 

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U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Home 

Contacts
CA: Special Agent Lisa Nichols 619-954-5498
Scott Flaherty 916-978-6156
OR: David Patte 503-231-6121
USDOJ: Thom Mrozek 213-894-6947

Multi-State Investigation Includes Subjects in Oregon and Texas 

Federal authorities have charged seven Southern California men associated with "roller pigeon" clubs on charges related to the fatal beatings and shootings of federally protected raptors. Six of the defendants were arrested throughout the day yesterday as part of a nationwide investigation - Operation High Roller - that is targeting roller pigeon owners who believe that hawks and falcons, while protected under federal law, should be killed because they attack pigeons, particularly when they suffer seizures in flight and tumble uncontrollably toward the ground.

The seven cases in Southern California, along with charges filed against defendants in Oregon and Texas, are part of a 14-month investigation by special agents with the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. In California, a special agent infiltrated several roller pigeon clubs and learned about members' efforts to trap and kill raptors, specifically Cooper's hawks, red-tailed hawks and Peregrine falcons, according to court documents. Investigators estimate that leaders and members of the National Birmingham Roller Club (NBRC) and other enthusiast organizations in the Los Angeles metropolitan area are responsible for killing 1,000 to 2,000 raptors annually. One official of the NBRC claims to have killed as many as 50 raptors annually for the past several years, according to court documents. One defendant told the investigating agent that he had filled a five-gallon bucket with talons that he had cut from slain hawks. 

The seven California defendants are affiliated with clubs that promote and compete with roller pigeons - also known as Birmingham rollers - which are native to England and have a genetic defect that causes them to flip backwards while in flight. Enthusiasts breed the pigeons with an eye toward having a group of the birds roll simultaneously, while recovering before hitting the ground. However, the distinctive nature of the birds' flight attracts predators, such as Cooper's hawks, because the in-flight flipping makes them appear to be easy targets.

The seven defendants are charged with violating the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, which protects birds such as the hawks and falcons that prey upon roller pigeons. It is illegal to harass, kill or possess migratory birds, such as the Cooper's hawk, without a special permit. Criminal complaints filed May 17 in United States District Court in Los Angeles allege that the defendants used traps baited with pigeons to collect raptors and that they used sticks or pellet guns to kill the birds. In some cases, according to an affidavit, individuals admitted to the undercover agent that they used shotguns or .22-caliber rifles to shot hawks and falcons out of the air. The affidavit states that one member of the NBRC admitted to the undercover agent that he sometimes sprayed hawks with a bleach and ammonia solution, which created poisonous chlorine gas and suffocated the birds. 

On repeated instances, the undercover agent observed roller pigeon fanciers in Los Angeles using "goshawk" traps to capture Cooper's hawks. According to the agent's affidavit, many of the roller pigeon aficiandos openly discussed trapping, shooting and poisoning hawks and falcons. Fish and Wildlife Service agents around the country report that members of the NBRC are using the same goshawk trap found in the California investigation in the states of Oregon, Washington, New Mexico, Texas, Wisconsin and New York.

All of the defendants are charged with at least one count of the unlawful or attempted unlawful taking of a migratory bird. The six defendants arrested yesterday are:

-- Juan Navarro, 44, of the Los Feliz district of Los Angeles, who is the national president of the NBRC.

-- Keith London, 42, of South Los Angeles, who is the owner of The Pigeon Connection store and is president of the Inner City Roller Club.

-- Darik McGhee, 38, of San Bernardino, who builds and sells hawk traps and pigeon lofts.

-- Brian McCormick, 40, of Norco, a past-president of the California Performance Roller Club.

-- Timothy Decker, 60, of Mira Loma.

-- Rayvon Hall, 46, of Rialto.

Navarro, London, McGhee and McCormick made their initial court appearances yesterday afternoon and were released on bond. They are scheduled to be arraigned next month. Decker and Hall remain in custody and are expected to make their initial court appearances this afternoon in United States District Court in Los Angeles.

An arrest warrant has been issued for the seventh defendant ? Efren Lopez Jr., 28, of Hacienda Heights. 

Each of the offenses charged against the defendants carries a maximum possible penalty of six months in federal prison.

Criminal complaints contain allegations that a defendant has committed a crime. Every defendant is presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty.

The cases announced today are the product of an ongoing investigation by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, which conserves and manages the 913 native species/populations of migratory birds. The California Department of Fish and Game assisted in the arrests made yesterday.

In other districts, federal authorities have charged several individuals as a result of Operation High Roller. 

The United States Attorney's Office for the District of Oregon filed charges on Monday against Mitch Reed, 29, of Mount Angel, Oregon, and Peter Kaufman, 53, of Portland, Oregon, who were each charged with one count of violating the Migratory Bird Treaty Act by attempting to take a raptor. Ivan Hanchett, 54, of Hillsboro, Oregon, was charged with two counts of violating the act. Reed, Kaufman and Hanchett are expected to make their initial court appearances in the coming weeks.

Federal prosecutors in Houston filed charges yesterday against Neil Keng, 58, of Laporte, Texas, a member of a local pigeon racing club, for trapping a Cooper's Hawk in his backyard in December 2006. Keng will be summoned to appear in court in the coming weeks.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is the principal Federal agency responsible for conserving, protecting and enhancing fish, wildlife and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people. The Service manages the 95-million-acre National Wildlife Refuge System which encompasses 544 national wildlife refuges, thousands of small wetlands and other special management areas. It also operates 69 national fish hatcheries, 63 fishery resource offices and 81 ecological services field stations. The agency enforces Federal wildlife laws, administers the Endangered Species Act, manages migratory bird populations, restores nationally significant fisheries, conserves and restores wildlife habitat such as wetlands, and helps foreign governments with their conservation efforts. It also oversees the Federal Aid program that distributes hundreds of millions of dollars in excise taxes on fishing and hunting equipment to State fish and wildlife agencies.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for sharing Terry.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Talk about something to give all pigeon-lovers a bad name -- people like that are no different than those who can't stand pigeons because they are pigeons!  . And these people are not small-time in their sport. As leaders of their clubs (the President of the NBRC for pity's sake!!) they have a responsiblity to their sport to set a good example.

If the charges are true, these people are nothing less than poachers.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=BE935795-974F-4768-DE4A89664B1CFC29


What a pathetic group of individuals. 

I can only hope that each & every person involved in this 'avian' massacre be given the max. sentence. 

And for the one who made the following confession (which tells me he was in this for more than keeping his birds safe) should be first in line at the prison gate with his cronies following close behind.  

*One defendant told the investigating agent that he had filled a five-gallon bucket with talons that he had cut from slain hawks.* 

Cindy




flitsnowzoom said:


> * *Talk about something to give all pigeon-lovers a bad name *-- people like that are no different than those who can't stand pigeons because they are pigeons!  .
> And these people are not small-time in their sport.
> As leaders of their clubs (the President of the NBRC for pity's sake!!) they have a responsiblity to their sport to set a good example.
> 
> If the charges are true, these people are nothing less than poachers.


Yes indeed.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

OMG, what those poor birds had to go through.
What a bunch of sick individuals.

Reti


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Thanks for posting this Terry. It just makes me sick! I slightly know one of the defendents, Brian McCormick. He is a major breeder of champion West of Englands and very active and well known in their club. I was stunned when I saw his name. I think the clubs should drum these individuals out of their memberships. I hope they all get the jail time.

Margarret


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Another Article*

http://www.dailybulletin.com/search/ci_5982887

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

As if pigeons don't have ENOUGH problems!

These men were fully aware of the dangers of predators when they flew their birds...they have NO excuse! 

Simple solution: if predators are going to be such a problem for Rollers, DON'T BREED or FLY THEM!

Racing homing pigeons also face dangers but they don't have the "roller" characteristics that could make them more vulnerable.

To me, deliberate animal cruelty in any form is unacceptable and inexcusable - the actions of these men say a lot about their character. 

Punish to the full extent of the law!

Shi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I think folks that engage in this behavior basically have these tendencies to begin with and just find an outlet where it can be "expressed". This goes hand
in glove w/lethal culling and is sickening, jmo.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Honestly, I think the practice of breeding pigeons to have certain traits/defects just because they make them more interesting/entertaining to humans is just ridiculous. Fancy birds with feathers on their feet so long they can barely get around, beaks so small they can barely eat, rolling, tumbling...breeding birds to develop these defects is really just selfish and cruel, jmo!!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

FP and Sabina I couldn't agree with you more.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

First let say that I do not condone the killing of any of these birds ,but I also will not jump on the band wagon saying that these men are gulity. Lets wait until they go to trial and see that the results are, and you that seem to think that breeders of some of the birds are some kind of mad scientist,I would like to remind you that all of the breeds that you see today did not come on the scene in the last few years. Many of these breeds have been around for hundreds of years.Most of the people that breed these birds love their birds as much as you do.Those birds with the feathered legs are for most of the year trimed and only let grow out for the show season and for most breeders that is 2 or 3 shows. .GEORGE


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

I'd agree with Squeaks abt that one! 

If they dont like their pigeons to be killed i think there mite be hawk protection/rehabbers which not like hawks dying.. 

Watch the LionKing, Its a circle of life.. We cant change it.. Hawks WILL eat Pigeons.. It can be prevented but NOT stopped..


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

George--
Those are good points. I do believe you that people with those types of pigeons as pets really love and care for their pigeons. And I'm glad to know that those feather feet aren't like that all the time! 
Sabina


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

George, you're right that they shouldn't have a trial going on outside of the
courtroom, that is the place where the evidence w/an official chain of custody
should be examined. Enforcement officers are human and there may be 
flaws in some of the evidence, though the admission of torturing the captured birds
by one of the fanciers to an enforcement officer is very damning if it
is in fact true.

fp


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

George, thank you for reminding us that these are charges and the men have not been found guilty at this point. It is easy to rush to judgement when emotions become engaged.

I do still feel that the maximum punishment is not too harsh if they are found guilty, as the brutality alleged in these arrests goes beyond merely killing the raptors. 

Margarret


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Sabina,

I am one of the people that does keep and breed "designer" pigeons and I love my birds very much. My show flights were developed intentionally by breeders about fifty years ago. However, I don't feel that breeding a color or trait into a breed of birds is cruel or bad. I do breed for desired traits. That means I pair up my birds who have the traits hoping to get them in the offspring. The birds mate, raise their young and have the same pigeon lives that my non fancies do. My birds all live in a flock, not partitioned off. I don't cull. Most of my birds with less than show quality will be desired by other fanciers as stock birds. Very few will have the traits to be full out show birds. Ones that have flaws that would render them totally undesirable for show or breeding(such as a bull eye) I keep as pets. I also have some West of England tumblers with big feathered feet. One is a rescue, the other a mate I purchased for her. Two more are their offspring. They are exceptional parents and will accept any squeaker to raise. I don't trim their feet as the big feathered feet don't seem to inhibit them in any way. You should see a little cold orphan baby snuggle down into those footsie feathers. I have a pair of 10 day old babies with my WOE pair right now that were rejected by their parents.

Margarret


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

You all have said it ALL. These guys are monsters. Marie


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*All in the name of 'SPORT'*

This was taken, in part, from the second article Terry posted.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/search/ci_5982887
_Investigators said the men are all involved in clubs that breed and fly roller pigeons, which are also known as Birmingham Rollers. *The pigeons are bred with a genetic defect* that causes them to flip and tumble toward the ground as they fly._

_Enthusiasts hold competitions in which *they try to get groups of birds to tumble simultaneously and fall as far as possible without slamming into the ground. *

*Biologists said the awkward flight of the birds can make them appear injured or vulnerable, which attracts the attention of predatory raptors*, who target them for food. _

I have no knowledge of breeding pigeons, so I will rely on what the article had provided, unless someone can dispute it by documentation.

The way I see it: 
1) For their own pleasure, these sad individuals intentionally breed their birds with a genetic defect. 
2) The birds erratic flight pattern makes them a prime target for predators. 
3) The birds that don't fall prey to the predators may end up slamming to the ground.  

And THIS is what some people define as a sport?? 

I don't get it.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> *George, thank you for reminding us that these are charges and the men have not been found guilty at this point*. It is easy to rush to judgement when emotions become engaged.
> 
> I do still feel that the maximum punishment is not too harsh if they are found guilty, as the brutality alleged in these arrests goes beyond merely killing the raptors.
> 
> Margarret


Well, we can only hope that the following evidence weighs heavy on the side of the law.

Cindy

* * * *

http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=BE935795-974F-4768-DE4A89664B1CFC29

SEVEN CALIFORNIA ‘ROLLER PIGEON’ ENTHUSIASTS CHARGED WITH KILLING, OR HELPING TO KILL, PROTECTED HAWKS AND FALCONS 

*One defendant told the investigating agent that he had filled a five-gallon bucket with talons that he had cut from slain hawks. *

*In some cases, according to an affidavit, individuals admitted to the undercover agent that they used shotguns or .22-caliber rifles to shot hawks and falcons out of the air.* 

*The affidavit states that one member of the NBRC admitted to the undercover agent that he sometimes sprayed hawks with a bleach and ammonia solution, which created poisonous chlorine gas and suffocated the birds. *

*On repeated instances, the undercover agent observed roller pigeon fanciers in Los Angeles using "goshawk" traps to capture Cooper's hawks. According to the agent's affidavit, many of the roller pigeon aficiandos openly discussed trapping, shooting and poisoning hawks and falcons.* 

*Federal prosecutors in Houston filed charges yesterday against Neil Keng, 58, of Laporte, Texas, a member of a local pigeon racing club, for trapping a Cooper's Hawk in his backyard in December 2006.*


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

They sound pretty guilty to me.
Since they confessed, I don't see how they could get away with it, but you never know.

Reti


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Margarret--
If all pigeon fanciers were like you, I would certainly retract my comments...your birds sound like they have a very nice life  
Sabina


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*New Press Releases*

http://www.roller-pigeon.com/page/page/4603451.htm

That link will take you to a press release from the NBRC .. over to the right also click on the RPDC and also on the link to the Forum update.

Terry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Interesting links and full of good information about the birds (pigeons). According to them (the position papers), hawks are more abundant than they ever have been in So. CA. Probably they are more abundant now than they have been since CA experienced a huge human population increase. 
It's a shame they felt pressure to "scrub" the forum postings. I can understand why they did it, but that almost seems like tampering plus tends to reinforce the idea to the outside world that maybe there is something to hide. 

It will be a difficult several months for these organizations, the general membership, and their birds regardless of outcome of the investigations and trials because everyone is tarred with the same brush in some people's minds. Once arrested, regardless of the trial results, a person's life is never the same (ask anyone who's ever suffered through a criminal or civil trial by media). We all know that in the American trial system it's innocent until proven guilty but it seems that the indictments and juicy trial bits get a lot more press than the final outcome (unless the person is found guilty).


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> ..... Once arrested, regardless of the trial results, a person's life is never the same (ask anyone who's ever suffered through a criminal or civil trial by media). We all know that in the American trial system it's innocent until proven guilty but it seems that the indictments and juicy trial bits get a lot more press than the final outcome (unless the person is found guilty).


I'm not defending the alleged behavior, but what you are saying is really a 
big issue also. There may be one or some who are guilty and there may likewise
be one or some who are not, but they will all be treated as though guilty regardless. It's all just a really horrible situation.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> I'm not defending the alleged behavior, but what you are saying is really a big issue also.
> 
> *There may be one or some who are guilty and there may likewise be one or some who are not, but they will all be treated as though guilty regardless. *
> 
> ...


You're exactly right, fp, it is a horrible situation.

Perhaps those who *are* guilty should have thought about the *consequences* of their actions *before* they started their rampage.  

Cindy


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## tintin (May 29, 2007)

Before you rush to judgement on the individuals arrested, or the Roller hobby at large, let me share some history of how the federal agency involved can operate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Falcon_(USFWS_operation)

In the Operation Falcon described in the link above, the USFWS issued huge press releases claiming a multi-million dollar smuggling network and many arrests. But in the end, many charges were dropped, and very few convictions were actually obtained. As well, some of the birds confiscated in the sting (from people never found guilty of any crime) later died while in the care of the USFWS. Knowing the history of that case, I am skeptical when I hear of similar big stings, and take the initial claims with a grain of salt.

Particularly, I doubt the claim of how many raptors are killed by L.A. area roller fanciers. Maybe they took the number they think the worst offender may have killed and multiplied it by the number of area roller fanciers. Who knows? They don't say how they arrived at that number. But they certainly didn't witness that many raptors get killed, so for sure that number is a guess.

If they have evidence of anyone that broke the law then tough luck for them. Everyone knows killing raptors is against the law, and they should have known better. But they should not be assumed guilty.

As for genetic defects...all domestic animals are an amalgam of "genetic defects" if that is what you call anything that departs from wild type. Rolling is not normally a lethal defect. Rarely, a roller may roll too far and hit the ground, injuring itself. But that is the exception. This is akin to dog with hunting traits chasing a car and getting hit, or Racing Homers dying on race day because they hit a wire or get lost and can't find sufficient food. Don't be too quick to judge someone's hobby. You may find your favorite hobby is the next target.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk Tintin.

I appreciapte your input & thank you for posting the link.

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> You're exactly right, fp, it is a horrible situation.
> 
> Perhaps those who *are* guilty should have thought about the *consequences* of their actions *before* they started their rampage.
> 
> Cindy


I have no sympathy for anyone guilty in this whole sting operation, let me make that clear.

Many know, however, that the government agencies are made up of people
and people sometimes err. There are also zeolots in law enforcement organizations guilty of breaking the law in order that they "win" or prevail.

Just wanting to get down to the facts which might be better established
in an official setting where certain guidelines need to be followed. I'm not
rolling my eyes here Cindy because it's a given for me that the guilty should
not go free. But the innocent should not be castigated for something they 
didn't do either.

fp


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## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

If it wasn't for man disrupting the balance . . .the lion would still lay with the lamb. In Florida the gators are retaking the city canals - whats rightfully theirs.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Well, we can only hope that the following evidence weighs heavy on the side of the law.
> 
> Cindy
> 
> ...


 Have any of you given any thought to how many talons it would take to fill a 5 gallon bucket? These talons are about a inch and a half long and about 1/8 thick at the base and each bird has a total of 8 talons.To fill that bucket it would take hundreds maybe even thounds of hawks. This guy was shooting his mouth off to impress someone and his (fish) story has got him in trouble. .GEORGE


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

george simon said:


> Have any of you given any thought to how many talons it would take to fill a 5 gallon bucket? These talons are about a inch and a half long and about 1/8 thick at the base and each bird has a total of 8 talons.To fill that bucket it would take hundreds maybe even thounds of hawks. This guy was shooting his mouth off to impress someone and his (fish) story has got him in trouble. .GEORGE


George, I was thinking the same thing about that one, that it was Machismo
talking though a pretty twisted one and sad/sick that this person thought
this something to brag on.

fp


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

How many talons? I would bet that the person was actually thinking "feet, with attached claws". That is the mental image that the phrase conjured up for me. Regardless if it's individual claws (talons) or the whole foot, the person was wrong to kill one of those birds, but bragging about it . . . .  . Bravado is not helpful.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

george simon said:


> Have any of you given any thought to how many talons it would take to fill a 5 gallon bucket? These talons are about a inch and a half long and about 1/8 thick at the base and each bird has a total of 8 talons.To fill that bucket it would take hundreds maybe even thounds of hawks.
> *This guy was shooting his mouth off to impress someone and his (fish) story has got him in trouble*. .GEORGE


It appears a *few* of these guys got themselves in hot water for boasting about they're illegal escapades.  

Cindy


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## tintin (May 29, 2007)

I think it's important to note that the Fish & Wildlife Service didn't say their undercover officer SAW a bucket of talons, nor that they RECOVERED a bucket of talons (if they did, I'd say throw the book at him). What they have is someone shooting his mouth off, and if that's what he said, his lack of judgement is phenomenal. I hope it was taped. Otherwise, you know how things can morph after they've sat in someone's head. For example, "Last year, if I shot every hawk that attacked my pigeons, I could fill that bucket with their talons" and "Last year, I shot every hawk that attacked my pigeons and filled that bucket with their talons" are not far off word-wise, but miles apart meaning-wise. 

Out of the whole press release, the only thing that was hard evidence was a dead hawk retrieved from one of the guy's trashcans. He's in deep doody. But I'm wondering if the arrest of the NBRC president was more for impact than them expecting they'll actually bring a case to trial or get a conviction.

Without hard evidence, I don't know how good a case the government will have. For example, at a place I used to live, there was a pond on a rancher neighbor's land. An Osprey had moved in and I frequently saw him there. The owner was a real hardcase that frequently complained about the winged fish stealer. One day I heard a shot and knew what had happened. Later that day I found the Osprey's fresh carcass. I told the local fish & game officer about it, but he said unless I had actually seen the guy point the gun, shoot, and saw the bird fall from the sky, there wasn't anything they could do about it.


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## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't hunt dogs . . . but if a ferocious Pit Bull came after me and mine - I would do my best to "put him out of business'. Likewise, I don't hunt hawks - but if I had to protect my birds from an attacking predetor, I would do what's necessary to "neutralize" the attacker.

Now if you put yourself in a position to be attacked - you're asking for whatever comes your way. Don't swim with pirana's or spit inna wind. Don't fly hawk attracting pigeons (erratic flying rollers) in the wilds where hawks abound.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Personally I think they should hang the guy just for bragging about it.


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## josephrose (Jun 12, 2007)

Hello, 
I'm a reporter with The Oregonian in Portland, looking for anyone who might be able to show me their rollers in western Oregon. I write about culture in Oregon and I'm interested in the hobby/love for these birds and what attracts people to do it. Obviously, this story is on the heels of the recent arrests here of roller enthusiasts allegedly shooting wild birds to protect their pigeons. But I'm more interested in writing about who gets into rollers and why and what keeps them doing it.
Hope you can help.
Joseph Rose
The Oregonian
503-221-8029


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Joseph,

I am not sure how many members from Or we have and if we have any. Hopefully someone will see your post and respond.

Reti


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## Goshawk (Jun 16, 2007)

I am a licenssed Falconer and came to your site to see what, if any, responses were posted. I was pleasantly pleased to see that many of you feel that "IF" these people are found guilty they should be punished. There are going to be bad apples in every club that gives the wrong impression, of all, in the publics' eyes and that coupled with the sensational wording from the press doesn't help. I am truly sorry of any of your losses due to the Natural actions of the raptors. I understand what it's like to lose a bird, favorite or not. My wish is that both of our organizations could come up with a viable solution to help one another in our choosen sport.It's always a good day in the feild when you come home with your bird,(birds).


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Welcome to Pigeon-talk, Goshawk. I think you'll find us a friendly bunch and interested in your birds too. 

I like your idea of trying to find some mutually beneficial solutions. As you probably have a fair amount of understanding about the lifestyles of the raptors, you might have some insights to offer people here. Most people try and fly their birds during the "down" times for predator birds and you might be able to put together some useful information on that for everyone's information. Useful for the pigeon fliers and the bird-watchers among us. 

Several people are also into rescue and rehab of birds of all types so we are always interested in those kind of resources too.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Goshawk,
welcome to pigeon talk. It is nice to read that you appreciate all birds. While I was working at the vet clinic we had a few clients come in with their falcons. They are truly amazing birds.

Reti


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

The hawks dont kill the birds because they want to it is the same reason cats kill mice it is and instinct and in some cases it is how they feed themselves. Mother nature can be cruel but that is no reason to kill a bird.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Welcome Goshawk.  



Matt D. said:


> The hawks dont kill the birds because they want to it is the same reason cats kill mice it is and instinct and in some cases it is how they feed themselves. Mother nature can be cruel but that is no reason to kill a bird.


Very well put Matt.  

Cindy


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Survival*

HI Matt,How are you? Are you the young man that was looking for ITALIAN OWLS a while back? By the way hawks do kill because that what they eat and feed their young,but we must not hold that against them it's all part of the natural system,they only kill what they need to survive. . George


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Goshawk,

Thank you for stopping by, we appreciate your thoughts on this. 

I believe that most people that truly love birds, will actually enjoy and appreciate every species. I have learned to have a healthy respect of all the birds, especially the magnificent beauty of hawks and all raptors. My pigeons have a healthy respect too, and will avoid any and all contact with them  

As responsible owners we do our part to keep our birds safe as possible, thru proper training and keeping them at optimum health, and keeping an eye on the sky to see what dangers may lurk before releasing our birds. That is what it is all about, we can do as much on our parts to ensure safety, but once our birds are released ..... mother nature may play things out differently.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Welcome Goshawk,

I doubt you will find any here who condone the killing of raptors. Others have already expressed feelings much better than I can regarding this. I welcome any dialog that might lead to a mutual acceptance and understanding between fanciers of both kinds of birds. 

Margarret


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## cheema (Jun 24, 2006)

*guys check out the video*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2SDXh4WBK8


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## SkyofAngels (Jun 28, 2007)

While I don't believe people should kill animals for any reason, I have to say I am not completely heartbroken over less hawks killing our beloved pets. What they did (if they did it) was wrong but anyone that has had a pet that they loved killed by someone or something knows that pain and anger and it must have got the best of them, especcially in a group sometimes things get out of control. I think in their heart they were just trying to protect their pets that they loved.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SkyofAngels said:


> While I don't believe people should kill animals for any reason, I have to say I am not completely heartbroken over less hawks killing our beloved pets. What they did (if they did it) was wrong but anyone that has had a pet that they loved killed by someone or something knows that pain and anger and it must have got the best of them, especcially in a group sometimes things get out of control. I think in their heart they were just trying to protect their pets that they loved.


I do not believe this was done (if it was done) out of love for ANY creature. 

If you release any pet bird or homing pigeon outside, it is subject to any wild bird of prey and everything else in the skies. I myself don't fly my birds anymore, as I couldn't stand the heartbreak. If you fly your birds you have to realize the danger, whether it is one hawk or 30 hawks, your birds are vulnerable once released, by your choice. Hawks are part of Gods creatures as are our pigeons, their overpopulation is the result of human interferance.


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## SkyofAngels (Jun 28, 2007)

I didn't say I would do it I just said maybe their pain or anger over losing a loved one got the better of them. Just like there are people who have had children kidnapped and killed and then they go and kill the kidnapper, its not that murder is ok its just that we are emotional creatures and sometimes our feelings are hard to control. I guess what I am saying is that I can understand what these people were feeling. I DO NOT agree with what they did but I can see why they did it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

SkyofAngels said:


> I didn't say I would do it I just said maybe their pain or anger over losing a loved one got the better of them. Just like there are people who have had children kidnapped and killed and then they go and kill the kidnapper, its not that murder is ok its just that we are emotional creatures and sometimes our feelings are hard to control. I guess what I am saying is that I can understand what these people were feeling. I DO NOT agree with what they did but I can see why they did it.


I understood what you meant.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SkyofAngels said:


> I didn't say I would do it I just said maybe their pain or anger over losing a loved one got the better of them. Just like there are people who have had children kidnapped and killed and then they go and kill the kidnapper, its not that murder is ok its just that we are emotional creatures and sometimes our feelings are hard to control. I guess what I am saying is that I can understand what these people were feeling. I DO NOT agree with what they did but I can see why they did it.


I understand what you meant, but I don't think love had anything to do with it, just anger and spite.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

I doubt love had anything to do with it either. They are doing this out of greed and a drive to win. If they loved their pigeons, they wouldn't breed them so that they have a flying style that attracts predators. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the breeders of rollers, but it seems very cruel to me.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Judge Not Lest*

I WISH THAT ALL YOU PEOPLE WOULD WAIT UNTIL THE TRIAL IS OVER. HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE HAD A BIRD KILLED BY A HAWK,CAT OR DOG.YOU ALL SEEM TO HAVE JUDGED THEM.REMEMBER .JUDGE NOT LEST YOU BE JUDGE. I DO NOT CONDONE THE KILLING OF HAWKS BUT I WILL NOT JUDGE THESE MEN THATS UP TO THE COURT SYSTEM. GEORGE


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you look at the balance of nature. The hawk has made a strong comeback. BUT its natureal food source has declined. Man has removed through development, pestcides ect the food source population. Hawks prey on the birds more now for food. BUT lack of good hunting areas brings these hawks to the cities to make a easy meal. PLUS you have perigans that were brought to cities to destroy the feral pigeons in those cities. Should owners have a right to protect there birds. YES should it be humane YES. BUT the goverment needs to help with the problem they helped create. Let the owners trap or goverment help trap and remove the problem. Nature does not have the natural balance to allow an over population Of the hawks in tadays world. UNLESS the food source is protected also. . Rabbits used to be so thick drives were held to reduce the numbers. Look now some areas you see little to no rabbits at all. I do not hat hawks BUT research the balance and you find the goverment protection while needed, has out grown its need. The naturel balance means the food source nature had is being steadly reduced to where man and his pets become the feeders of these birds. In my area cooper hawks were never a problem in my whole life until a few years ago. We had chicken hawks and red tail hawks. These birds rarly hunted inside in town or city. Coopers will take bird right beside you. They are bold hunters and hunt the easy prey. Why because we have taken the real hunt away from them. LESS OF NATURES FOOD.


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## florida217 (Aug 11, 2007)

I agree with you, re lee. 

Hawks have become increasingly more prevalent in Florida too. In fact, the state is considering reducing it's level of "protection" because they have made such a comeback. 

The city of Apopka had a mouse problem about 2000-2001, and mankind, in his infinite wisdom and knowledge, decided to release hundreds of hawks in the area to take care of that mouse problem. Now, every year about this time, the mice return, as well as the hawks. Now they still have a mouse problem as well as too many hawks. (They are offering mouse traps to the residents now - the old fool-proof standby). Add to that, I just heard they have released about 150 coopers hawks in the Plant City area to take care of robins that have been eating the crops there (I hope it's an exaggeration).

Walt Disney World used to release white homers in a number of their shows, but in 2001 they had to stop releasing the birds as hawks started swooping down and grabbing the birds during shows, which didn't go over too well with the guests and their children.  

There has to be a happy medium somewhere.


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