# Need advice quickly



## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Hi, we have a 9 year old pet (rescued) pigeon. She became sick a few days ago. Our vets (including cert. avian vet) have diagnosed a reproductive problem that has caused severe anemia and regurgitation. She has been treated with lupron, fluids, anti-inflammitory, and antibiotics. She is actually a little better today.

She has not eaten for a few days, she needs food but won't eat on her own. Is there anything I can safely force feed her? (The regurgitation has stopped at this point, and we have been able to give a few of the meds orally).

Please advise if you have experience with this. The only thing that can help more at this point is continuing to reverse the anemia, and her body needs energy to do that.

Thank you.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Right off the top of my head, I'd say pump some of the Kaytee Baby Bird Hand Feeding formula into her. It's nutricious (we raise orphaned baby pigeons on it all the time) and certainly can't hurt and would be easy to digest. 

http://www.petco.com/product/10053/Kaytee-Exact-Hand-Feeding-Formula-for-All-Baby-Birds.aspx


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you. Can we use a syringe to do it or do we have to tube feed?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

LeslieOC said:


> Thank you. Can we use a syringe to do it or do we have to tube feed?


If you know HOW to tube feed then that's ok. I personally am scared to even attempt it, so I use a syringe. A little more time consuming.......but it's what I'm comfortable doing....so I just take the time.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

I don't know how to tube feed, so I'll try the syringe. Thank you so much. I am going to pick up the food.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Good luck. I hope this helps her get better faster.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

What is her history....has she ever laid eggs and/or has she just recently stopped laying?


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

She laid eggs for a long time, but hasn't laid for a few years. The x-rays showed massive swelling of the reproductive system, obscuring everything else in the abdominal cavity and pushing the gizzard way up. High white count, *severe* anemia. There are a number of problems to be dealt with, most of which can be if only we can get through the anemia and weakness right now.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

PS we've given her a tiny bit of baby bird formula and she is keeping it down so far. Does anyone know how much to give? She hasn't eaten in like 4 days and I do not want to overload her.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I cant offer much help...hang on, the experienced members won't be too far away. The bird was drinking? If not she'll need rehydrating before you feed her. I would say little and often with the Kaytee but make sure the crop is emptying. Good luck.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you. She had fluids yesterday and the day before, and we are going back to the vet later today for more. How do I tell if the crop is emptying?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am so very sorry you and your pet are going through this. I would like to ask though if your vet ruled out cancer? Did they say whether there was a mass in the area or just fluid accumulation? Pigeons can get cancer. Has the swelling gone down?

As to feeding her. I would start out with about 5 cc every couple of hours for today and then increase it to 10 cc about every 3 hours tomorrow, gradually working up to about 20 cc per feeding. Hand feeding an adult can sometimes be stressful on them. Also, try to keep her as warm as possible and in a quiet area.

Please let us know how she does. We have all gone through the illness of a beloved pigeon so we know what you're going through and wish you and her the very best.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I wanted to add also to carefully watch her poops so that you'll know that what goes in comes out.... The crop, located on her chest, should be just plump and soft. For her, I wouldn't want it to be more than 1/4 to 1/2 full until all the swelling goes down because that just adds to the discomfort and could cause her to start regurgitating again. She needs just enough food to keep her going. 

You can add about 1/2 tsp. plain yogurt to the mix to help her digestive system. Also, there is a product called Nutrical that is available at most pet stores like Pet Smart in the dog products area. Squeeze about 1/4 inch of that into the formula and that will add calories. We use that on most of our rescues who have trouble eating.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you so much for the advice. They can't rule out cancer because they just couldn't see enough on the xrays with all the swelling. The swelling is probably going down since she is not regurgitating and seems a tiny bit better.

The vet is coming over to administer fluids now, then I will be picking up Nutrical. Thank you all so much.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Leslie...........I can't add much to what the other members have already advised you, however I just would like to wish you and your beloved pet pigeon the best. You are doing all you can and I pray for a speedy recovery for your bird.

Please keep us all posted on how she's doing.

Regards,


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you all so much for your kind thoughts. I know you know how I feel right now--filled with hope and fear...

What kind of Nutracal should I get--dog, cat, or puppy?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Leslie,

I hope your pigeon is starting to feel better. There is only one type of Nutri-Cal that I know of, and it is for both dogs and cats. In addition to the syringe feeding, you could try thawing some frozen peas and feeding some of those as well as soaking a good quality dry dog or cat food in water until somewhat soft and feeding small pieces of that.

Good luck to you and your beloved pigeon, and please keep us posted.

Terry


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

*Need More Advice Please!*

Hi, I posted yesterday about my sick pigeon. Thank you for your advice and well-wishes.

Beebs, our bird, had some improvements yesterday (grooming a little, hooting a little, flicking her wings a little). But something else is going on.

Her head was slightly rhythmically tilting to one side. That progressed to her head kind of bobbing and weaving around, and looking back and up. By night her head was drooped totally forward so the top is flat on the ground while she is standing. She can lift it, but seems to prefer(?) it down.

Any ideas or advice? Is this PMV? I should mention that she had anesthesia for her x-rays on Thursday. Could that be related? Also, she is taking Baytril for her other problem. Is that dangerous if it is PMV?

Thank you all again.

-Leslie


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

If it is pmv, she can recover, I believe the showing symptoms are actually the onset of recovery which can take 8 to 14 weeks with supportive care.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

I don't know if this makes a difference, but we don't have any other birds, and there are no feral pigeons around where we live, and we don't wear shoes inside the house. If it is PMV how would she have gotten it?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Leslie,

Well....if it is PMV, the only thing you can do for that is give lots of good supportive treatment and nutritional meals, which is best.

I can't imagine how she would get PMV either, perhaps her movements are a side effect of the anesthesia, have you asked to doctor about that?

FYI: I have moved your thread together with the original so everyone will have the background information on the bird.

Thank you.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Has anyone ever heard of Lupron or Metacam having these kind of side effects? Those are the other two medications she was given.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi L,

Metacam is a NSPR and a Cox-2 inhibitor; the dose is very small for pigeons and an overdose can be lethal.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LeslieOC said:


> I don't know if this makes a difference, but we don't have any other birds, and there are no feral pigeons around where we live, and we don't wear shoes inside the house. If it is PMV how would she have gotten it?


I see, if you have had her for 9 years, that would not seem likly, but the disease can be spread as airborne, fancier-borne or contact borne, so lone birds are not exempt 100% from risk. but she could have something else going on as well. wish I could be of more help here. just keep comparing her symptoms and do the best you can. sounds like you are doing everthing possible to help her, which is wonderful.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Leslie, I am so sorry to read this latest complication. I am going to PM one of our members, Cynthia, (Cyro51) who knows a lot about PMV. Somewhere in my memory I'm thinking that pigeons can carry PMV but it doesn't manifest itself unless stress or other illness lowers their resistance. In any event, I hope Cynthia can speak to that.

I am also going to PM our member Pidgey who is very knowledgeable about medicines to see if he knows if this type of reaction can come from the meds she is taking. I seriously doubt Baytril would cause it but it just don't know about the others.

We have cared for many PMV birds but all had the virus when we took them in so I have never seen it from its onset. Like others have said, prognosis for recovery is excellent provided the pigeon gets good care. I know you are providing this already.

My main concern with PMV is their ability to initially eat but since you are feeding her that shouldn't be a concern right now.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Unless Beebs has a history of PMV then I don't think she has contracted the virus. If there is a possibility that it is paratyphoid then the Baytril would help.

I don't believe in giving Baytril to pigeons with PMV solely on the grounds that it will protect them from any opportunist infections, but if an antibiotic has been prescribed by the vet then IMO it is safer to treat than to not treat.

What dosage of Metacam are you using? I give 1 drop daily and have never experienced any problems.

If you have difficulty feeding her formula or if she is not taking enough, you could try thawed peas and sweetcorn. John fed his PMV rescues exclusively on this and they thrived, I have found the same with a sick wood pigeons. We give 50 twice a day, but you could try little and often.

I hope that you are able to stabilise her soon and that the cause can be corrected.

Cynthia


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you Cynthia. She has never had any PMV symptoms. The Baytril was prescribed when we initially brought her in to the vet a few days ago. There were no PMV-like symptoms. She had a high white count (and other problems) so that's what the Baytril was for. We also have Sulfa/Trimethaprim on hand, but haven't given it yet because we're worried about overmedicating and overstressing given everything we have to do to her. Any thoughts on this?

We haven't given the Metcam since Friday. The dose was 3 drops. The symptoms started well before any Metacam was given and she didn't have any noticible reaction to it at the time. 

Can anyone enlighten me more about Paratyphoid, what it is and where it would have come from.

Thanks again everyone. I can't tell you how much your help means to us.

Leslie


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Leslie, this is a link to a "resource" thread here at PT that may answer some of your questions. There are some other good links within that thread that you can review also.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9505

You can also go to our "search" program at the top of the page and type in Paratyphoid or Salmonella and find many threads on the subject. As well, you can "google" and find many sites. Sometimes there is so much information it overwhelms me!


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you. What a tremendous resource you all are. One more feeding question. Several people have mentioned thawed peas and sweet corn. If she won't eat voluntarily, can I just pop those down the hatch so to speak? Is it safe to do so?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

LeslieOC said:


> Thank you. What a tremendous resource you all are. One more feeding question. Several people have mentioned thawed peas and sweet corn. If she won't eat voluntarily, can I just pop those down the hatch so to speak? Is it safe to do so?



Yes, just pop them in. Here is a brief video by Cynthia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

You can do the same thing with soaked dog/cat food pellets, quartered. We use Science Diet, Adult Bites, from Petsmart and they are add not only nutrition but moisture as well. Just make sure she swallows after each piece. You can also help her by very, very gentle massaging her throat to help pieces go down.

We have never had a problem feeding this way. Takes time and you have to still keep an eye on the crop to make sure it is not too full.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Ok, cat food has always been her favorite! (Tries to steal it from the cat). I will try it and peas. Cynthia's video makes it look so easy, it's inspiring.

Just now after a stressful syringe feeding, she suddenly wanted to try to eat some seed my husband showed her! Her pecking is very tentative and wobbly, but I can't help but think it's a good sign she is trying. She likes the millet the best. Keep your fingers crossed for us. Any advice any time is so appreciated.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, it is wonderful to read that she is trying to eat! I'm really pulling for this little one.


It is hard to hand feed an adult without causing them stress. This is a link to a video that Renee (Lovebirds) did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJe6y8EYQRg Granted, these are baby pigeons but it could help you in that Renee simply opens the beak and squeezes out a small amount directly into the mouth and lets them swallow. It is probably less stressful than the way we do it which is to use a syringe and go further back in the throat.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

That looks so much better. The vet had freaked me out about accidentally getting food or medicine in the trachea, but if you just squrit the food in the front of the mouth and let them swallow that should be ok?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

LeslieOC said:


> if you just squrit the food in the front of the mouth and let them swallow that should be ok?


Yes, as long as you are not squirting in so much that the bird aspirates some of the food. It can be very traumatic for the caregiver in the beginning, but learning how to crop feed can be a real life saving skill as related to a needy bird and also saves a huge amount of time for the caregiver.

Terry


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

*Update and a question*

I'm happy to say that Beebs has some improvement today. She is keeping her head up much more and actually managed to stand on one foot. We are doing a combination of feeding-peas, corn, soaked cat food, and Kaytee/Nutracal down the throat sometimes and in the mouth sometimes, depending on how she is handling it. We're continuing the Baytril.

My question is, on this diet, can anyone tell me what her droppings should look like? 

Thank you all so much for the help you have given us. We wouldn't have gotten this far without you!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LeslieOC said:


> I'm happy to say that Beebs has some improvement today. She is keeping her head up much more and actually managed to stand on one foot. We are doing a combination of feeding-peas, corn, soaked cat food, and Kaytee/Nutracal down the throat sometimes and in the mouth sometimes, depending on how she is handling it. We're continuing the Baytril.
> 
> My question is, on this diet, can anyone tell me what her droppings should look like?
> 
> Thank you all so much for the help you have given us. We wouldn't have gotten this far without you!


She will have loose droppings because of the baytril. when that is finished you can give some probios to help her grow some good bac in the digestive tract. I gave bene-bac probio pet gel, to one of mine when he was on baytril. I just gave a pea size bit in his beak opposite of the time he got the baytril, and gave it for about a week afterward. I think it really helped his poop looked nice a firm when he was better, he had been wounded. the antibac med is strong and it will kill the good gut bac as well as the bad. so her droppings may not look so good for the time she is on it.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you so much Spirit Wings, I was worryting about those droppings. Can I get the bene-bac probio pet gel at a pet supply store or is it something I need to special order?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Leslie, we use Benebac powder mixed in with the Exact. We usually get ours through our wildlife group but I believe Petsmart carries it since it can be used for reptiles. It is really good stuff. I usually hold off giving it until I finish giving the Baytril, but Spirit Wings apparently had no problems giving it with the Baytril. I have never tried the gel but I expect it has the same ingredients. I believe the instructions say to give it every other day or every third day but with a compromised pigeon, I give it in at least one feeding every day.

For right now, you can purchase plain yogurt (be warned that the only size we can find is a pint) and put about 1/4 tsp in the Exact with every feeding if you like. It is also very good for them and to the best of my aging memory it will not interfere with the Baytril. 

I am so happy she is doing better.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Aging memory, ha ha. I wish I knew half of what you do.

They have the benebac gel at Petco so I will get that.

Now I know that her droppings don't look normal because of the Baytril (and probably the illness). And because of her various tests we know she was sick without my noticing it for quite some time. Can anyone describe what "normal" droppings should look like once she's off the Baytril in 2 weeks just so I can start to keep track?

Thank you again so so much.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

LeslieOC said:


> Can anyone describe what "normal" droppings should look like once she's off the Baytril in 2 weeks just so I can start to keep track?
> 
> Thank you again so so much.


Leslie, there is a thread here somewhere (probably in Resources about poop .. Poopology 101 or What Poop Means or something like that .. I can't find it right now but perhaps you can or another member can and post the link). Meanwhile, good pigeon poops are pretty solid, circular in form and rounding up to a nice little tip .. the poops are mostly brown with a dollop of white on top.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

LOL, here tis - all you want to know (and maybe more) about poops:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11637

In particular, check post #20 which shows pretty ideal poops. Post numbers are in the upper right of each thread/post.

Enjoy!!!!!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks, Maggie! I was close on what the thread title was 

Terry


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

*Bad again*

Thanks a million for the link. I will study up.

Beebs is better today in some ways (strength, amount of food, amount of poops, grooming) but her neurological symptoms are worse this afternoon. Her head is turning all the way upside down and she has a hard time standing.

All your support is keeping me going even when things look so sad. Thank you so much.


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

If a pigeon gets PMV, are they immune for life or can they get reinfected? Also, for any of you who have had/rescued PMV pigeons, how long can the need for hand feeding last, before they can eat on their own?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If they are infected with PMV then the immunity lasts for around three years.

Only a very few really need hand feeding, even those that I have here with with severe neurological damage can feed usually themselves from a deep wide dish. What I have found is that when people give ame pigeon that they have been hand feeding - often unnecessarily - from the outset, then it is very difficult to get them back to feeding themselves. 

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've been out. Have you read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html

If there's a lot of swelling in that area, it's either a buildup of debris from the inflammatory response or it's cancer. Only surgery's going to be able to tell and give relief if it's the first case. I've got one like that right now that I need to take in soon. One of the better medications would be a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination that you can give with Metronidazole.

Pidgey


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks so much Pidgey. The vet also feels there is something wrong that will need surgery. The problem is she is not a candidate for surgery yet. At first that was because her anemia was so severe they did not think she would survive. That has greatly improved. Now she has the neurological symptoms to overcome.

Could you please explain about the Trimethoprim/Sulfa with Metronidazole? She is now on Baytril, but I do have the Trimethoprim/Sulfa on hand. Can/should they be given concurrently? Consecutively? What is the Metronidazole for? The bird vet did not mention that as an option. 

One week ago the bird vet gave her a Lupron shot to stop estrogen production and bring down the swelling, to buy us time to strengthen her for surgery. I am guessing we will need another one in two weeks. I haven't had her re-x-rayed yet, I am way to nervous about her condition.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks again.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Trimethoprim/Sulfa is just better at some anaerobic infections that Baytril isn't so good at. I've treated them with these types of problems with both drugs and have simply gotten better results with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa. Metronidazole is a very good gut and abdominal antibiotic. It also permeates and works in necrotic tissue.

If your vet's willing to do that surgery, then make sure that he or she understands to take the bird under with the Forane (Isoflurane) anesthesia but then to throttle back to maintain slight reactions to the work being done. You're really trying to keep the bird under as lightly as possible in these circumstances in order not to lose her while under. They're not really going to feel work done on the actual oviduct even while only lightly under because they don't seem to have much of any pain receptors there. It's when you're going through the abdominal wall and suturing it back up that they tend to react under anesthetic and you want to see them react a little bit. Most of them that we lose while under probably happen more due to being put under too deep than any other reason.

If that swelling is due to the buildup of spent leukocytes and inflammatory debris then it's not going to go away on its own. Give the Trimethoprim/Sulfa at 60 mg/kg, PO, BID, and the Metronidazole at 50 mg/kg, PO, BID.

Pidgey


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## LeslieOC (Mar 14, 2009)

Ok. Would I stop Baytril or finish the course (1 more week) before starting the others? I have to make sure she has the blood volume to withstand surgery. At 60% loss (which she had, much better now) she could not have survived any tissue removal. What is your experience with Lupron? Also, do you have any opinion on the neurological symptoms (they started last Thursday, after all the other symptoms, in fact after we began treatment).

Thanks so much for your time and help.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Seeing as how you need to work with your vet's instructions in order to keep up good relations, continue with the Enrofloxacin until finished. Then you can start the other meds. We often use Metronidazole in combination with Enrofloxacin, though, because it complements it so I'd start that one soon.

Pidgey


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