# To cage or not to cage



## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

This morning I read on a thread titled "Larry the rescued field pigeon..." and read where pdpbison made another comment which I take to heart, "At any rate,pigeons are not "cage birds" unless the pigeon is ill or injured and to be caged for for the short interum of it's immediate initial phases of healing,..."

I sent this member a private message, as to keep it out of the public forum.

This is the message I sent Phil:

*"Geeze Phil,I get so sick and tired of reading that statement from you.I have two caged birds, but ya know what, they are loved and well taken care of. Does that make me a bad caretaker? I sure get that impression EVERY time you make comments like that! "*

I got a reply from Phil:

"Hi Victor,

Let's start a thread please if you like, for this topic?

That way it can be discussed better than in these little 'window' things at our site's in house e-mail..." 

I had hoped to discuss this in a private manner through a tool pigeon talk provides. I have sent and received many private messages pigeon related with no problems. 

This morning before their baths, Beaskey flew back into his open door cage on his own. He seems quite happy with his living conditions. My other one Uchiwa, couln't wait to return after her bath. They are both in cages. My intention is build an outdoor flight cage, but at night they will CAGED.

Phil wishes to discuss this issue openly, so be it.


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## Jiggs (Apr 1, 2005)

I am sure this will cause quite a debate 

I personally do not have a problem as lot as the (or any) bird has enough freeedom i.e an aivery, house, large enough cage etc.

Which is why I like my homers as they fly and can return when they wish


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Victor, I agree with you that pigeons need the security of a cage and mine all seem to be satisfied with theirs. Course, most of ours are in the aviary where they have a little more freedom but the two we have indoors seem to like theirs.

If you let them out for exercise during the day I see no problem. Maybe its just me but I don't want to worry about them being out while unsupervised.

Maggie


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

As you all may or may not know, I had "Dory" here for a week. He has a cage and being in a new place in my house, he wanted to be in his cage. I let him out a few times a day and when he got tired of "being out" he flew back to his cage. This is my feeling on the whole situation. I don't think you should take a wild bird and make a pet of it and cage it. That's not what they've known all thier life and even though they may "put up with it", it doesn't necessarily mean they are "happy". On the other hand, a hand raised baby, that is put in a cage in the house at a young age doesn't know any different and will consider that cage to be his/her secure home and be happy to live in it. Granted they still need to be let out for exercise and so forth but a cage where they feel secure and "at home" I believe is acceptable. Of course, there will always be exceptions to the rule but that's what I feel in a nutshell.


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Hi Victor,

I can understand both points of view. I guess in reality no one really likes to see any type of bird caged, but I agree that just because a pet bird is caged, doesn't mean that it is in any way less loved and cared for. As long as the cage dimensions are met with regard to the size of the bird and its lifestyle requirements, and the bird is allowed plenty of exercise outwith the cage at times, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Some households can be hectic at times (especially if there are young children around, or other pets), so caging a bird can ensure it's protected and safe from household dangers. Some birds, like yours, will see their cage as 'their domain' to preen, eat and roost, and just like us, they need their own private space from time to time for emotional wellbeing.

When I first got Jax as a young bird, her feathers were very tatty due to being kept in a small cage at the veterinary surgery where she was treated after being handed in as a squab. I just have a one room apartment at present and don't have the room to house a suitably sized cage (I already have a large cage set-up for my smaller birds), so she is free to roam the house at all times and is happy that way. As I live on my own, I am soley responsible for her care and ensure the safety of her environment at all times.

Victor, I am aware that your birds are very much loved and cared for, and I'm sure that they are extremely happy and contented in your care.

Lindi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Victor, 

I suppose that we could say that if not intended to be free, then why give them wings? If that were the only variable, then so be it, however it's not. 
When a bird is 'unreleasable' and therefore dependant on a human(s) for care,
the whole situation changes. Then adjustments are made for both the care giver and the bird in need. A sizable discussion took place here regarding Beaksley, and most felt him to be unreleasable. Certainly the fantail was bred to be in a captive situation. How could you let them go free? They live with you now, and there are times for their safety, that they can't be given free range of the house. Not to mention the hygiene issue, you are all sharing the living space.

In an ideal world, maybe none of us would labor under restriction, but it is less than an 'ideal world' and we need to make adjustments continually in life. I don't think that Beaksley would have survived if released, he mostly only knows captive life at this point, and that's just how it is for him. He thinks of his 'cage' as his home/roost, and seeks it out on his own like we would seek the emotional safety of our bedroom or favorite tree or hide-out as kids. His needs are provided for, he's well loved, he is a happy camper regardless. Many birds survive because they are picked up and 'suffer' captivity. They too, adjust, and in time it becomes their world just as the feral life they left behind. I have no guilt in intervening if needed, just wish there were more options for them.

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> I don't think you should take a wild bird and make a pet of it and cage it. That's not what they've known all thier life and even though they may "put up with it", it doesn't necessarily mean they are "happy".



Just so we're clear on what I meant, I was refering to a wild pigeon that has been rescued for whatever reason and IS releasable, but not released because a person has grown attached.........a bird, wild or otherwise, that is in any way handicapped, should be given a chance at a healthy full life if possible. And if that means living for another 5 years in a house in a cage with someone who loves and cares for it and gives it it's free time then that's fine. Just wanted to make myself clear......LOL


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

This is a very good topic and I, myself, had a delema about it. My birds outside are in an avairy 5ftwide, 12ft long, and 8ft high, I find it's kinda on the small side since I'm getting more birds in and I will be expanding it this summer. As for Zara (my bedroom pigeon) I HAD to get her a cage cause she was getting caught up on clothes, wire from my head phones, hair that I'll throw in the garbage, she'd fall down cracks between my bed and wall and into my garbage can, the list goes on and on!! But what really wake me up was when she got caught up in the PJ top and when I came home she was hanging upside down along my bed. That was the last staw and that night I got a cage that was 2 1/2ftwidex3ftlongx2 1/2high. It took her a while to get use to it but now she loves it! I'll leave the door open all day and she'll only come out once and that's in the morning to wake me up to feed her. Ever since I got the cage too she hasn't had anymore incidence like the above listed. That cage is now her home, instead of my pillows, and I now have no regrets about getting it. 
Each bird is different though. Some birds can't stand to be in a cage and others love it. It's up to however has the bird to find that happy medum.
Hilary Dawn


PS~Zara's leg splint thingy somewhat worked. I had it on her for almost 4-5weeks, then took it off. Everything was fine for another week and half to 2 weeks but then her foot closed up again. But she can stand SO much better now tho, and can somewhat walk. I'm going to be just putting on only the foot splint this time to open up the foot. Other than this she is doing fine.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Victor,

Domestic pigeons are born in captivity, therefore they are either in a coop/cage/loft, or another kind of enclosure from birth on. They do well and are happy as long as they have plenty of room and can excercise and their needs are met. They need the safety of their coop for secuirty and protection from hawks.

I think birds do very well with cages, if not neglected, and have everything they need for quality life, and your birds, I'm sure, are totally fulfilled and happy! They are content and happy and have the safety of a cage when needed, but also have freedom to explore and play.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi there Victor,

It's been so long since I talked to you it seems. I know from all your so many posts that your birds are getting the very best treatment, love and affection that anyone could ever afford. And I know you love and care and dote on your birds daily. Not everyone has the time or interest that you do though and some would just cage their pets, leaving them isolated for endless hours while they were out at work, visiting others or carrying on with all lifes expectations and obligations. I can see both sides of the story too.

I guess every situation is different and also depending on the circumstances of the bird in captivity. You already know that I don't confine mine within the house and yet there they are, staring wistfully and longingly at the two wild pigeons that have taken up residence on my deck. I only allow them to visit throught the glass and no more than that. My indoors are well fed, warm, comfortable and secure yet I still get that pang of regret keeping them captive even though I know full well both would have perished without my intervention.

What I am saying is that I think indoor caging is OK for your birds. I know already you let them free-fly daily and that they have a very good life indeed. I don't know that I can confine mine more at this point though as they are so used to having the run of the place. Buddy has taken to waking me up every morning, pecking at my lips and cheek while I sleep to get me up and going so I will feed him. It is impossibe charm. You have to live it to know it though and there are those boo-boos I have to put up with but it's still a happy home.

For Buddy captivity is the norm, for Windy it is a temporary inconvenience until she is well enough to leave and that is coming this spring. Timing is important. She has made great strides forward in the last while and I will soon be able to release her back to the wild where she belongs. I am looking forward to her big day too. She is a great success for me and many thanks are due to all those, including yourself who helped me get her back to her normal self again.

So try not to be annoyed with Phil. He rehabs birds for release for the most part never intending to keep them as pets. That is what he does and so his perspective is that birds belong free. His are mostly ferals in need of temporary aid and supportive care until they can be back on their feet (and wings) to live in the big world again. The only ones he keeps are the un-releasables with broken wings, legs or blindness. You and I on the other hand keep pigeons as pets so our perspective and realities are very different to Phil's.

I have the greatest respect for the likes of Reti, Phil and Terry who patch up the injured ones and send them on their way again. We need millions more like these three for the benefit of our wildlife and the sake of the planet. If only everyone cared so much, this would be a better world to live in.

Cameron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Camrron said:


> Hi there Victor,
> ....
> You and I on the other hand keep pigeons as pets so our perspective and realities are very different to Phil's.
> 
> ...


Actually, while being pets, both of Victor's birds are unreleasables. Birds culled from a loft but 'kept' all of their lives would be as well. While some banded birds can be retrained, one doesn't know until the instant where they don't return if they were successfully trained to re-home or not, least that's my understanding. The bird in question on the thread mentioned may still be unreleasable even after bringing to good health. 

Even bonding and taming up become issues to look at in terms of releasing a bird, if the bird has become too trusting from an extended absence from feral life. 

Just some nuances that I'm sure you're aware of, and wanted to bring up Cameron. 

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Great points fp and yes I am aware of them,

I try to addess all my ideas in one post but my head overflows with ideas some times. Actually my post was inspired after reading your previous one to this. That post just hit me a certain way and then I wanted to say something to Victor too so he would not feel alone in keeping an indoor bird caged and safe. 

So much to say, so little room in a single post. Oh well. 

Nice to hear from you again though.

Cameron


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This is a good thread folks, and I'm glad we are discussing it. In my case I have several VERY FERAL pigeons who have injuries (missing parts of wings) that make them totally non-releasable. They do not like me, they do not like being here and contained .. BUT .. Guess what .. the fact that they are still alive, healthy, and doing fairly well after years tells the tale to me .. their choices in the beginning were euthanasia or being a "one armed bandit" here. They got the latter choice, and even though I know they are not totally happy here .. alive is a better choice. I see them sunning during the day and generally just being pigeons .. it's just when I come around .. I've never been accepted by three of these guys in all the years that they have been here .. that's their choice in my mind .. I will feed, water, clean, and care for them for their lifetime .. I was the person who made the choice for them .. perhaps they would have decided differently, but I don't think so.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oh, Cameron, silly me...guess I'll just have to keep doing these cameo 'Rosanna Danna" appearances ....

Good to hear from you again too, Cameron, think I'm rofl-ing on this last one  

Terry, very amusing about the wing wacks. Those guys are truly just being themselves without shame  . They now have health insurance, chamber maid service, probably breakfast in bed at times, but hey--just leave us alone, let's give ya a good wack and then you can be on your way! Gotta love them. Although, I'm sure that when they are sunning, just being pigeons, they are glad that they still can.

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Caged pigeons*

*Hi everyone, and thank you for the positive replies so far. 

When I was new to pigeons, I thought it was acceptable to catch a wild feral and make it a "pet" but I know that that is not a good thing to do. As many of you know, I have two non-releasable pigeons at the present time. I , as many members here do, keep our pet pigeons in...ok now, I am going to have to make references to this bad word...CAGES for their own safety and well being, and ours as well. 

Beaksley pretty much now has the run of the house, but will only stay in the east side of my living room, near his cage. He flies in and out when he has his daily exercise time, but he does follow a flight route pattern, which incorporates his cage as well. 

Uchie, well her present flight area in our bathroom. In there she also follows a close route, and seems content to return to her quarters as well.They have a sense of security and accept it as their territory, as a part of themselves actually. 

When I take them outdoors, they remain in their cages. It is my choice, not theirs. It hurts me that they will never enjoy the freedom of free flight outdoors, as my Tooter once did. The memory of Tooter chasing after me on my ten speed til he caught up with me is still vivid. The times when I was watering my plants, and he would roost on my hand that held the water nozzel, and he would start with dipping his beak...and then his head, and eventually his big ol' body til he was showering on my hand. They will never experience those moments, nor will I. But you know one thing that these two, or any other pigeon I may ever own, will not experince? The clutches of a hawks claws ripping at their bodies, or the powerful hawk beaks tearing at fresh meat. I lost one beloved pigeon to a hawk attack...never again will this be repeated. 

The fact that our pigeons are caged is our decision. It is in the best interest and safety of them to be housed securely, not roaming outdoors with the risk of predators, and not to run free in the house whenever they want. There is not only a safety issue here, but one of health for the other pets that share the household, and us as well. 

It never was my intent to keep Tooter caged, but the prognosis proved to be correct, Tooter would get short winded due to the BB in his body, and he became our first pigeon pet caged. 

Zipper, our now pet squirrel. Caged in a large plexiglass terrainium. Rehabbing helped, but she became partially paralyized in her hind quarters. It was our decision to keep her alive and offer her a good life for as long as she lives. Our squirrel is Bev's. She feeds her very well, pets her, handles her and gives her a weekly supervised bath in the tub, which she seems to truly enjoy. Everyone knows, gee ya don't cage a squirrel! It was either have her put to death...or give her the best quality life that we can give her. That decision was ours, not Zippers. 

Should I come across another injured pigeon, and it chooses not to leave, whether it is "releaseable" or not, it too will be caged. 

To Phil~ In your closing private message you stated to me:

"I meant no offense...

I know you are a sincere and well meaning caregiver...

Lets discuss this in it's own thread..."

Since you do not like the little window things ,also known as private messages, allow me to address this also to you...

You do offend me each and everytime you post a comment that makes a reference that "pigeons are not caged animals". This is not the first time you have stated this opinion of yours. You did again not even two weeks ago, and I made a posting shortly after yours that I did not appreciate your comment. Do you not check posts after you make one? Or did you just ignore it? Your comment the way it is written does not help new members that are seeking help. It would be best if you explained best what you actually mean...unless of course, you simply do not find it acceptable to cage a pigeon period?

I have another question for Phil The message about "well meaning caregiver"...what is that "well meaning "suppose to be translated to mean? Am I reading into this wrong?

You end in saying,"Let's discuss this..." OK I complied with your request. What say you? *


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Victor,

I don't normally venture into some of these threads because I feel like I am way out of my element. I just feel for you, as I understand the frustration you must feel when subjected to the rantings from the self appointed pigeon gods....... 

I still have not grasped why it is considered wrong to provide a home for a so called "wild" feral. That must be one of those intellectual debates as to the morality of letting something "wild" stay "wild". The problem I have with that, is the animal by and large would not be "wild" in the first place, except for the interference of man with Mother Nature in the first place. 

If feral pigeons experience the same sort of mortality as say feral cats, then they only live about a few years and are subjected to all kinds of ailiments that my "caged" birds do not. I am of the thinking, that there really is no such thing as a "wild" pigeon in the USA. They certainly are not rock doves...so what are they ? The offspring of domesticated pigeons which for one reason or another, are out there living off the land. 

Want to take a guess as to how many "racing pigeons" are contributed to this gene pool of wild ferals every year ? 

My birds are "caged", yet they will fly hundreds of miles to get to their "home" which they apparently must be happy with. So Victor, my little two cents, is you just keep doing what you have been doing. 

Those that would advocate that all birds kept in confinement in the USA, should be released into the "wild", are just way...way...out there on the fringes.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, I just can't stay out of this.

I freely admit that we have ferals that could have been released but they became so imprinted on us, particularly the ones we had to keep over winter, that we have not released them. I make no apology for this because they are happy, very well loved, and most importantly, alive. 

A lot depends on the birds themselves. Right now, we have Rachel, Raymond and Otis that were carried over either because of the time of year or the condition they were in when we got them. Rachel and Raymond have been in the aviary over the winter but Otis has been inside our home except for a few hours each day in the aviary. In Otis' case, we have deliberately, although it has been hard, maintained our distance so he can be released. He is wild as a buck and should adjust very well, as should Rachel and Raymond, when we release them this spring.

Another case in point is my feral Simon who is about 4 years old. We tried to maintain our distance with her also but it is her nature to love us more than she loves the other pigeons and we became so bonded that she can't be released. 

I would never pick up a feral just to make it a pet. However, when their age or health causes them to be in our care, and we see they will not fare well in the wild, we keep them. Many of you know that we have now cared for over 300 pigeons. Out of that we have 22 rescues, plus 1 "fancy" pigeon that was given to us that we keep on a permanent basis. And, I love every single one of the little devils.

Hope no one gets mad but if so, that's ok too.

Maggie

PS - I neglected to add that at least 12 of the 22 are bonafide nonreleasables with either health issues/injures that would cause them to not be able to fend for themselves in the wild.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Ok, I have kept out of this for obvious reasons, but I have a point to put here.
It is extremely cruel to keep a bird in a cage ..................... if it does not want to be there! It causes high stress levels, increases stress chemicals in the blood system which overload the major organs and lowers effeciency of the immune system. High levels of chemicals in the system on a semi permanent basis can damage the major organs and seriously shorten the lifespan of an already miserable existence.
For this reason we assess permanently damage birds as to their suitability in a captive home and most do not pass the assessment and are euthanased to prevent their mental suffering. 
Some however do pass the test and pigeons quite often do due to their very stoic nature and their lifestyle of living in close proximity to humans. These then are given a chance.
If a bird is quiet and peaceful in a cage, feeds well and does not stress out at the sight of a human being, well where's the cruelty in that? Some birds actually enjoy the company of human beings.
I have to disagree with the comment that pigeons are not caged birds. It is rather a sweeping blanket statement which does not take into consideration individual birds, individual circumstances and individual carers.
I think every case should be judged on its merit as each case is unique.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Ok..........I don't know if you all will call this changing my position in mid-stream or clarifying but here goes..................if someone goes out and catches a pigeon or "steals" a baby just to have a pet, you are wrong........BUT.......all of you that re-hab birds have my utmost respect and I'm sure that none of you would keep a wild bird against it's will if you didn't think that it was in the birds best interest........I'm certainly not going to get mad because I know that 99.9% of you are stand up, respectable and the most caring people I know. Bottom line is that we all have our opinions and we can discuss it 'till the cows come home' but if someone feels that strongly about thier position, nothing I or you say will change that and to argue and debate at the expense of some one getting their feelings hurt is not worth it. I'm done now..........off to a pigeon meeting. You all have a good day....


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Well, Victor, I have *8 'caged'* pigeons.  

They are all rescued non-releasables, with the exception of Sadie & Sam, who are the offspring of Mikko & Pij'ette. Four have no problem flying.
*Five* are housed in a 6ft Wx 8ft L x 6ft H aviary which is located inside our AZ room.
*One*, Rae Charles, our blind pij, has an 'apartment' within the confines of the aviary.
*Two*, Frank & Jessie, our mated pair with irreversible wing damage, now reside in their own large 'condo' outside the aviary. This being because Frank couldn't seem to behave himself in the aviary & refused to go along with the group program.  
I had three options with Frank. I could have 'let him go', tried to adpot him out *or* house him & Jessie separately. I decided on the latter because I knew he was being provided the best lifestyle possible.

Each situation has it's own set of circumstances. Not every rescued pigeon is able to be released. *And*, not every rescued *non-releasable* pigeon is able to have the run of the house, for various reasons, e.g., curious kids, other animals that share the common area, etc.

My pigeons, although '*caged*', are some of the happiest, most well cared for, birds around. One might wonder, how do I know this? By their actions. Shi can attest to this, not that I need to prove it to anyone.  

Given the proper care, housing, love & attention, '*caged'* pigeons can, & many do, live long & happy lives.  

Cindy


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> if someone goes out and catches a pigeon or "steals" a baby just to have a pet,


Now that I don't agree with! I thought there were laws against that?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Nooti said:


> Now that I don't agree with! I thought there were laws against that?


I think you better go back and read that post again. With the quote you left out the most important part of the sentence. Sure it's an over sight.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Nooti said:


> Now that I don't agree with! I thought there were laws against that?


I think that may be a part of the problem, squabs may be protected in terms of laws that protect nesting birds, but feral (adult or fledged) pigeons aren't protected. This is my understanding anyway.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*"At any rate,pigeons are not "cage birds" unless the pigeon is ill or injured and to be caged for for the short interum of it's immediate initial phases of healing,..."*

One thing that really concerns me about a statement such as the one above is that when someone unfamiliar with pigeons, rescues one from harm's way & is willing to give it a good home because it is non-releasable, may read this & be reluctant to to do so because the only means of housing this rescued bird *is* a cage. 

We have too many pigeons needing good homes for this to happen.

Cindy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What i haveseen over the years about feral pigeons. They will settle in with people in just a short time. They act no to little different then you see a raceing homer act when you are near and around. In many places they depend highly on humans to get feed. and a nesting area is allways close and near human populations. Its nice to see them fly and large flocks look great aginst the sky. But when you cage them in a loft area. They act just as if they were born there. They know you care and feed them provide them shelter. AND I bet if they could talk they would say they feel so much more safe. In the wild they have to struggle each day to survive. Now real wild birds robins cardinals blue jays. They belong wild they also havea very short life span. Parrots they live a long life and if caged and not given attention and a play action the get a little crazy over the years.Pigeons and humans are nearwhat dogs and humans have become relie on each other. Its good to have people that want to care and release pigeons back to the wild. They do belong both free and humans Just as some animals now can only be cared for in ZOOS or they would become extinct because number are so low.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*I will call her/ him Uchie for now...*

Somewhat getting off topic here, but we all do have other pigeon issues that need to be addressed as we all do know, anyway, I have been calling Uchiwa, Uch-HE lately, because I have a gut feeling that she is a he.

It passed the "mirror test" the first week we had Uchie delivered. It will look at itself and flare up though it does coo softly.

Then too it will beat up Beaksley like there is no tomorrow...they are isolated now and only visit in their cages side by side. They get along fine this way. 

It has so far been established that Uchie has not liad an egg, so I have three options.

1. Further research sexing pigeons thread/resource book

2. Try and contact original owner if possible through her band number

3. Take it to my avian vet for DNA testing. 

I just hate calling my fantail an "it". It is either he he or a she, but I am leaning towards it being a he...I just know it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Victor said:


> ..... I have a gut feeling that she is a he.
> 
> It passed the "mirror test" the first week we had Uchie delivered. It will look at itself and flare up though it does coo softly.
> 
> ...


Don't know what to tell you Victor.....DD thinks the pij in the mirror is just so kissable --maybe you'll have to start another thread and get some ideas.

fp


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> I think you better go back and read that post again. With the quote you left out the most important part of the sentence. Sure it's an over sight.


Well I missed it the it's wrong bit, but I am in agreement with you!  
I missed it out coz I was concentrating on the stealing a bird from the wild bit. There are laws against it, which means it's and offence as well as morally wrong.
I'm still in agreement with you, just a little confused now?


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## jennyp (Mar 14, 2006)

hello everybody and, well, Im completely and utterly new at this but I thought I'd share what I think so far about this "to cage or not to cage" debate. My pigeon Edgar is about 8 weeks old (i'm guessing because his voice just started to change yesterday) and he's lived with me for a little over a month. Before him I knew not a thing about birds and had never planned to have one live with me. Then there was Edgar.
At first I let him have the entire house to himself because I didn't like the thought of keeping him caged up all day while I was at work. However, sanitation quickly became an issue. 
So now I have made his nest in a giant dog cage for while I am not at home, but when I am at home he is at large and following me around the house (that way when he does dodo I can clean it up immediately). When its nice out he simply follows me around as I do yardwork or I just take him outside to go "adventuring". When I get too far away from him, he seems to panic and flies over to me up on my shoulder. How I see it is that if he really wanted to be free, he'd probably fly away from me. Maybe it's just because he's still young, but it's really cute.
At the end of the night he gets sleepy and wanders into his nest in his cage to fall asleep. Althoug he's excited to get out of the cage and hop on my shoulder when I get home from work during the day, he certainly doesn't seem to mind the cage for sleeping and eating. 
So I guess I agree with the whole basing it on the individual bird theory. Pigeons aren't cage birds and pigeons are cage birds. All I know is that my pigeon is a spoiled bird.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Victor said:


> .....
> I just hate calling my fantail an "it". It is either he he or a she, but I am leaning towards it being a he...I just know it.


 Go with a "He" you have at least a 50% chance of being correct !!


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

There isn’t “a should” or a “should not” to this debate. There are too many variables that need to be considered here.

What animal should be caged?

My birds have to fly! I know all of the dangers, and so do they, so we have worked out a system. Cinderella is not a strong flyer and will not fly far from her cage. 
After Polaris returned, he had to be separated from the other birds. He almost killed himself inside the cage I put him in. I do not know where he was for four months but he did not want to go back inside a cage. I have three PMV victims. When I first observed one flying backwards up-side down and smash into the wall, I brought out the scissors, and did the unthinkable. This little bird longs to fly. He watches the others and my heart swells with pain. 

I don’t think that Phil meant to offend anyone. He simply made a statement that is as common as saying a fish should be allowed to swim. 

Victor you are very sensitive to your animal’s living conditions, and for you to think that you were not providing the best for your pets would tear you apart. 
In your circumstance, you cannot let Beaksley and Uchiwa fly free. Beaksley might take off for the bay. 

We all have a different way of doing things for different reasons. But our goals are all the same….we all have our bird’s best interests in mind.

I free fly my birds and they return to their cages of their own free will.

I look at it like this. When your bird needs protection….PROTECT IT. If it is healthy and nature savvy and has a support system such as other birds to warn him when danger is near then let him fly until his heart is content. 

As Nootie pointed out, every circumstance is different. We all try to do what is best for each individual bird.

This is the way I feel, and as a member, I should be allowed to express it, with out the fear of being eaten alive.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well said, Feather....

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*This is the way I feel, and as a member, I should be allowed to express it, with out the fear of being eaten alive. By Feather*



In my defense...he requested I make my point I made to him public. I attempted to handle it through private means. 

If he was "eaten alive" as you stated, well he invited everyone who was interested to the feast. 

Maybe it is time for *him* to step up to the plate.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Nooti said:


> Well I missed it the it's wrong bit, but I am in agreement with you!
> I missed it out coz I was concentrating on the stealing a bird from the wild bit. There are laws against it, which means it's and offence as well as morally wrong.
> I'm still in agreement with you, just a little confused now?


What are you confused about? I stay confused ALOT these days trying to keep up with all these posts.......LOL


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Victor said:


> Somewhat getting off topic here, but we all do have other pigeon issues that need to be addressed as we all do know, anyway, I have been calling Uchiwa, Uch-HE lately, because I have a gut feeling that she is a he.
> 
> It passed the "mirror test" the first week we had Uchie delivered. It will look at itself and flare up though it does coo softly.
> 
> ...


Patience, Victor, patience (yes, it DOES take more than an hour!  ) However, there may be more than meets the eye here. IS there some reason why you NEED to know NOW that Uchi is a male or female??? I'm sure "he" or "she" will tell you soon... No offense meant - just curious...

Re: the cage issue: the minute I saw the words about putting this question out, I knew, for the most part, what would be said. I'm sure most others thought the same thing.

My comment? Simple: *anytime there is a "blanket" statement, there are usually ALWAYS exceptions...*


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I was under the impression that ferals were not protected by law here in the US which is why we can pick up a sick or injured one and if within our abilities treat it instead of bringing it to a rehabber. There may be some over lapping laws regarding the disturbing of a nesting bird w/its young or local ordinances that restrict further. What exactly is the law regarding the capturing of ferals in the US, rrealizing that special permits may be obtained by pest control companies.

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Shi, the answer is simple...*

I have to know so I know how to make references to him....er-aah her?

When Beaksley does a commendable feat, I praise him,"Good boy!"

When I do the same for Uchie, well ya get my point? "Good pigeon" don't cut it.

My pigeons are people too.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Victor said:


> I have to know so I know how to make references to him....er-aah her?
> 
> When Beaksley does a commendable feat, I praise him,"Good boy!"
> 
> ...


Ok, I have another simple answer until you KNOW for SURE:

Nope, you are correct, "good pigeon" doesn't cut it (except maybe once in a blue moon: "good pijie" instead???)

Solution? Just say "GOOD UCHI(WA)!" That way he or she DOES learn his/her name!  

And, when referring, just say Uchi(wa) instead of he/she/him/her...simple, yes??  

You are welcome


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Feather said:


> I look at it like this. When your bird needs protection….PROTECT IT. .
> This is the way I feel, and as a member, I should be allowed to express it, with out the fear of being eaten alive.


Feather,

That was a great post from you and you made so many good points. There really are a lot of different variables. As many as there are members posting on this thread. You won't get eaten alive. I don't think anyone should be afraid to post their personal thoughts because this is a personal issue with everyone. 

What really seems to get to most people is when they see exotics that belong on a different continent wasting away alone in a little tiny cage with no company through the day. It is upsetting to see. But the folks here are for the most part devoted to the care of their birds, caged or free so the debate amongst ourselves is in some ways directed at our common revulsion to caged pets that we have seen that are not cared for. Hopefully nobody gets too beaten up over the issue. 

I don't like cages but I own one. There have been times I had to use it as well. I wish more than anything that both my birds could be free-flying outdoors but it is not going to happen, at least not for Buddy. For some of our rescued friends, likes Victors birds, the other outcome for them was probably death. 

Caging is the price a rescue pays sometimes to have it's life.

Cameron


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Victor,
You don't need a defense with me, I was refering to myself when I made the comment about being "eaten alive".
I free fly my birds, I cut that little birds wings, and I don't think Phil meant to offend anyone. All debateable subjects
It may be just me, but lately on P.T., I feel like the members are less tolerant with one another.
I haven't told anyone my story about how pigeons took over my life. 
In my area 3 fanciers were reported and made to give up their passion, plus the lady that had pigeons two doors down that just moved out, leaving her birds to roost in unlocked make shift cages at night.

Because we had a water source, and I kept my feeders full, they all ended up here. 
We were unprepared for all these birds. After the cat got a couple, my husband and I would climb up in the trees and gather every last one. We put them in dog carriers, rabbit hutches, canery cages, and cardboard boxes, a far cry from the housing that P.T. accepts as par. You do what you have to do to protect them. 

Feather


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Cameron,

I missed your post. I went outside to make sure that every living being was safe, and the subject has been changed. But you have a way of getting to the core of things. This is one thing that we all agree on, and that is LIFE.
WE ARE ALL PRO LIFE. What ever it takes to maintain that....is what we have to do.

Feather

fp, 
I read where it was against the law to disturb any nesting bird and their young, but was informed that when you call and try to have that law enforced when a pigeon is concerned that it is not usually a priority.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

On a personal note:
Most of you know that Jesse has a cage, but chooses not to stay in it. That's absolutely fine!

A few times, I tried to acclimate him to the idea of staying in the cage, but it did not work for him. Jesse became very agitated ~ circling it, looking for a way out. When he plastered himself against the bars, I said, "That's it!" This took place over a matter of minutes, but it seemed like an eternity to me AND Bob. 
Because their lives are so short in comparison to ours, my intention is to provide the creatures in my care with as happy a life as possible.
For Jesse, that means having the run of the house. Yes, it's not easy keeping up with him, but that's too bad; that's the way it is.
If anyone TRULY wants to know how their bird feels about being caged, simply leave the cage door open.
If they are comfortable with their cage, they'll hang-out there. If not, they'll only return to it to eat & drink ~ as Jesse does.

Not for nuthin' guys, but Phil should not be criticized for stating his feelings.
If everyone (including me), did only a fraction of what that man does to help injured ferals, we would all
be heros. That's my 2 cents.

Phyll


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

A few of you have forgotten that *HE* is the one that brought this all out in the open. 

Oh, but you are right, let's not criticize Phil.

Speaking of him...PHIL, WHERE ARE YOU?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Victor said:


> This morning I read on a thread titled "Larry the rescued field pigeon..." and read where pdpbison made another comment which I take to heart, "At any rate,pigeons are not "cage birds" unless the pigeon is ill or injured and to be caged for for the short interum of it's immediate initial phases of healing,..."
> 
> I sent this member a private message, as to keep it out of the public forum.
> 
> ...



Hi Victor,



Sorry for the delay...there has been a lot going on here, a lot to keep up with here, which has kept me away from Pigeontalk.

If Beaskey flew 'back' into his Cage, then he is not a 'Cage Bird' in the sense I intended the term to mean.

A 'Cage Bird' in the sense I did intend, is where the Bird is put into a cage, and not allowed to leave it or not taken out of it. Not allowed to fly, not allowed "out" of the 'Cage'.

Many people do 'do' this, and there are many people who would never think otherwise than to do this, where, the Bird, any kind of Bird, is kept in a Cage, period.

I do not feel this is a good arrangement for Pigeons.

Hence I wish sometimes to encourage against it when someone is saying or implying or appearing to suggest, if not explicitly saying, that such IS their intention to do.

For most people, the terms "Bird" and "Cage" are so associated, so tied together, that they can not think or imagine in any other way THAN that a Bird is to be kept in-a-Cage, no matter how healthy it is, or if it is a Baby even who would not go anywhere anyway, or how long they have had it or how long previous the Bird's at one time injury or illness or compromise had been...

I have met many such people, and, I have heard of many more.


This is why I am sometimes concerned.



A Bird who may come and go from it's Cage as it likes, or generally is allowed to have an 'open' Cage and to be on it's own recon, with some rare occurances of being locked 'in', or who is trained to sleep in the Cage and the Cage being closed at Night, is not in my sense of the term, a "Cage Bird" or "Caged Bird".


As for my own experience with those Birds who recognised their Cage as 'theirs' from their period of convelescence in it...and, who can fly...

Some may elect to come and go from it for a short time after, seeking their Seeds or Water in it, (or, in what had been someone else's Cage which may be tied 'Open" also, for that matter! Or other Pigeons who never were in a Cage at all at any time, will also enter one just to see what it is like, or to graze at Seeds left in it for it's previous resident) or sometimes to sleep or nap in it for a short time in the days after the Door of it is twist-tied 'Open'...but, quite soon, they abandon it in favor of higher Day Roosts or Night-Roosts and other places of their chooseing, and do not return to their former Cage anylonger.

Now, I suppose a Pigeon may be trained either from it's youth or as may be, TO accept a Cage which is not per-se quite so high as other potential and available places are for their Night Roosting, but this would be against the endemic of their character and Natural History to do. Especially if there are other Pigeons around.

Or, if their Food and Water are not anywhere else available, they may elect to favor a Cage for brief periods, in order to have access to their Staples, but would have no reason to stay in it any longer, than to merely eat or drink or nap a little.


Thank you...

And thank you for starting a thread where the term or the notions might be clearified.

Best wishes...
 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Maddona a mia!

Victor,
I'm sorry if I offended you, but the guy has a right to his opinion. Afterall, he isn't saying anything with regard to harming a pigeon.
I love you & hope you aren't pissed at me now. It sure sounds like you are.

Phyll


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh funny old world...

Little ( not-so-Little anymore, but nearly a sub-adult now) 'Winter'...


Who had never been in a Cage at all...the last few days has been spending more and more time IN the now empty cage which had been occupied for some days by my recent Avitrol or other 'poison' Pigeon, who has since been in free-fly free rove in here.

Now, 'Winter' just grazes in the Clean and nice and Seeds and Water Bowl Cage ( with the Cage Door twist tied open) and then naps in there like a little boat on shore...

I just walked over to say hello to him there, and he looked very dreamy and happy laying there.

I think he sees the others for-now Pigeons in their Cages and wished to emulate their situation.

He has his own seeds and Water elsewhere in places he likes, and so far, no one else has challenged his casual posession of this otherwise empty Cage.

I often hold up free rove Birds (whoever I happen to pick up or who lets me do so, ) to visit with those who are in Cages, and I think this began Winter's interest in them.

However, aside from light naps or grazeings in it during otherrwise waking hours, he prefers to sleep his night elsewhere, as does everyone else when they are allowed to do so.

Actually, I think the ex-poison Bird left today via the Transome aperature.

He had really recovered splendidly, flew well and strongly, regained his "White" Wattles most of the way and continueing every day moreso, and was lately doing BIG TIME "Aroooo-Ka-Roooo" Twirly-Bird dances from THE highest places in here.

And, curiously, today I also gained a slender tall visitor Pigeon who seems to be a young Hen, who is not one of 'mine' but likely saw some others who visit here, come or go through the Transome aperature, and so she decided to come in and see what is in here and decided to stay a little while. She let me stand fairly near her earlier and talk with her, while she was standing quite near to Winter, but she is shy.


Anyway...funny how topical Winter and 'his' new "Cage" is...

Lol...

Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just another comment came to mind. There can be a difference between "rehabbers" and "pet" people. If I were a rehabber, my goal WOULD be to release and not cage. 

However, as a "pet" person, my bird has a cage, not only as his 'sanctuary' but as a protection from my cats if I'm not here. When I'm home, he is always out. Squeaks cannot fly, which is ANOTHER consideration for the "cage" issue. (note: until just recently, I would have to "pry" him out of his nest basket with dummy egg! He would have stayed 24/7 otherwise! Sure took his daddy duties to heart!!)

Granted, rehabbers can also be pet people. In fact, that is almost a foregone conclusion if many pigeons are rescued.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WOW! Hi Phil! I finished writing and posting my comments and THERE you were!

I've been wondering how Winter is doing, bless his heart! 

Quite a thread you and Victor got going here! 

These discussions not only give people a chance to express their views but, to also clarify how one thinks about various issues. 

Many thanks to you BOTH!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nooti said:


> Ok, I have kept out of this for obvious reasons, but I have a point to put here.
> It is extremely cruel to keep a bird in a cage ..................... if it does not want to be there! It causes high stress levels, increases stress chemicals in the blood system which overload the major organs and lowers effeciency of the immune system. High levels of chemicals in the system on a semi permanent basis can damage the major organs and seriously shorten the lifespan of an already miserable existence.
> For this reason we assess permanently damage birds as to their suitability in a captive home and most do not pass the assessment and are euthanased to prevent their mental suffering.
> Some however do pass the test and pigeons quite often do due to their very stoic nature and their lifestyle of living in close proximity to humans. These then are given a chance.
> ...



Hi Nooti, 

Thank you for your mentions...and their details.

Quite 'so'...!

Forgive me for how either I myself may sometimes leave or make some ambiguity, or, for how others may take "quotes" out of context in order, even by accident, to make them seem to be global statements which had no inferential or implicit context to limit their applicibility and sense.

The mentions I have made, have been only in those perhaps four or five occasions, over a year or more, and over some great many posts in all, where someone appears to me, from what they have said or intimated, to intend to put some opportunistic find of wayward Juvenile or adult Pigeon, into some expedient small cage to suit their pocketbook, to "keep" it thereafter, even for-ever-after, as a pet.

And where it seems to me from their disclosures, that they never to let it out to fly or excercise or have any autonomy at all...indoors or out, oweing to either their beliefs about it, fear of loseing it, and or because there is no way for them to do so with all the chaos and creature clutter already happenning in their milieu indoors.

Usually when they have already mentioned all their other kind of extant 'pets', kids, and household overmuch of it all already in place...


As you only too well know, many people do not 'think' in any other terms THAN to associate 'Bird' with 'Cage', and to set about combineing them with alacrity and thrift when given the chance...and to keep it 'so' regardless of what might otherwise have benifited the Bird...or the species of Bird.

I have seen many horrible examples of this, and many more merely heartbreaking ones.

I have many times provided details of my wider view and actual practices, my uses of Cages pro-tem, for the wayward, ill, injured or under-observation of Bird, yet small mentions, taken out of context, seem either to suit the pretext of argument, or to provide expedient fodder for confusions.

Or, in this instance, became the basis of a worthy topic being discussed, and a good thread for all concerned to find or provide important thoughts and clearifications of when Cages make sense, and how so they might be humane in use.

IIf I had said instead, that, "A Pigeon from the wilds or otherwise arrived, is not a 'Canary' or tiny 'Finch', bought of some Pet Store to amuse the needy or bored..." , is maybe closer to the mark of my intent, when having mentioned that "Pigeons are not 'Cage Birds'..."

Pet Pigeons may be allowed to free-fly or free-roam indoors at least some of the time, and, they will tend to do very well with it. They may also be taken "out" of doors IN their Cage, to have some direct Sunshine now and then, and, I have never advocated otherwise.


'Cage', in many cases, for may people, as things tend TO be in reality, will hardly let the Pigeon turn around, let alone get the excercise it needs to recover well and to be fit for flying again, as well as that 'cage' for most people will mean, it will NOT fly 'again'...and will not leave the Cage or be let out.

Hence, my wishing for some thought or understanding for the Bird's sake, when saying such things...

"Because Canarys or other small Birds have traditionallyy been 'Cage Birds' in our culture, need not mean ipso-facto that ALL Birds are or should be obliged TO be...merely because someone finds one in compromise, and can impose it on them."

...would also have been an alternate way of my frameing it...



I have never admonished against Aviarys, Flight Pens, Lofts, Large roomy airy dry Sun Lit enclosures, open Cages indoors, or Cages kept indoors or brought outdoors on occasion, for sensitive and sensible housing or convenience, for a Bird who is allowed to leave it at least some of the time to fly or walk around ( when not a flier) indoors.

I have admonished against keeping a Pigeon in a conventional meaning of the term 'Cage', when it will be kept so exclusively, and not be let out to fly or excercise and so on.

Hope this clears it up...!

 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Sorry Phil, I refuse to rise to the challenge, especially as this thread was not directed to me in the first place. I have merely stated my facts and opinions as have lots of other people here. Now I need to direct my time and energy towards other priorities.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Feather said:


> ......What animal should be caged?......
> 
> This is the way I feel, and as a member, I should be allowed to express it, with out the fear of being eaten alive.
> 
> Feather


 May I suggest that Humans are an animal that needs to be caged, sometimes for life.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Phyll~

Oh my goodness, I am not "pissed" at you! Please do not think that!

Everyone~ I was-am-??? just a bit frustrated, that's all.

Nerve endings struck...If this thread were CLOSED, it would be nice...

Let us all just move on to what we are all members here for...the love and caring of birds/animals...and most importantly, pigeons.*


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

Victor has requested that this thread be closed and since he opened it, I will close it as per his request.

I think the subject is definitely a contentious one with very many individual opinions on what is suitable for pigeons, whethey they be pets, rescues, temporary visitors etc. I do see potential for this discussion to get pretty heated and in the end, feelings will be hurt....they have been already.

There were some pretty good points made here by many of the members and if you take the time to read them, you'll know which ones they are. I think we can all agree that the bottom line is the quality of life that the pigeons have and the level of care and attention that they get. None of us here would force a pigeon to live in a small cramped cage, never allowed out for freedom and exercise. I'd like to think that we all know the difference between what's cruel and providing the absolute best we can for our birds


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