# Post-Avian-Menopausal Pigeon Tail Bobbing



## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi all,

I've noticed my female pigeon NuNu tail bobbing since yesterday evening. NuNu is married / has a mate, and they do have sex (I last saw them do so about 2-3 days ago), but she hasn't laid any eggs for about 1.5 years. I found NuNu as an injured feral about 6 years ago, and we assumed she was young when I found her, but we don't know her exact age. I've definitely noticed NuNu tail bobbing before over the last 1.5 years from time to time. I'm not sure if this is worse than usual or if I just happened to be paying particular attention this time. 

NuNu also seems to be perching in the same few places and not moving around so much. She isn't fluffed up or anything and she looks pretty bright eyed when I approach her (and she has had the energy to hop up onto elevated areas to perch). I'm a little hesitant to weigh her in the event that she has a delicate egg condition that could be complicated by handling. 

I don't know how the avian equivalent of menopause works - e.g. if they just keep ovulating but their bodies always have to resorb the egg. 

I'd greatly appreciate any advice you might have about the tail bobbing (e.g. is this normal in post-menopausal birds? Does it usually last for a few days as their bodies resorb eggs or some such? If so how long does it usually take? Should she get soon by our vet if it doesn't subside in a day or two? Are there other things to watch out for?). 

Thanks so much,
Howard


UPDATE: I weighed NuNu and she's 349 g, which I think is a pretty good weight for her. She did have a pretty watery dropping afterwards (which might just be due to stress), with a good deal of white in it.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Our girl Fiona bobs her tail sometimes related to egg laying. I took her to the vet fearing it was a breathing problem but she was fine. Hope Nu Nu keeps doing well. Fiona seems to be laying less often...but it is winter.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks, cwebster. I'm just a bit worried because I checked on NuNu and she does seem to be pretty tired (closing her eyes a lot except when I approached her). She also didn't get up to eat when I gave the birds fresh food. It is a bit late at night, so maybe she just needs to sleep to get over the egg issue. But I am a bit concerned.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Trip to Emergency*

Hi all,

Throughout the last 24 hours NuNu has been pretty stationary, and when I put out food she did not get down from her perch to eat (I also had not observed her drinking). As I was cleaning up NuNu’s perches I found that she seemed extremely tired. After she got down from her perches she just sat in the middle of the floor and closed her eyes, before eventually deciding to move to a perch. This seemed very worrisome, so I took her to our 24 hour emergency vet.

At the emergency vet we did an x-ray and an ultrasound. The vet on duty was not an avian specialist, but to her x-ray and ultrasound did not seem to show any signs of egg binding or anything else. She did, however, post the x-ray and I think the ultrasound to an online forum and is waiting to hear back.

In the mean time NuNu received sub-q fluids at the emergency vet, and they gave us pain meds (Metacam). They also prescribed that I feed NuNu Kaytee Exact at home (as we had done back when she had been anorexic several years ago).

However, just as we were about to go home, NuNu started breathing heavily and we are getting her into an incubator. I am going home to get Philly to stay with her and to get her Kaytee exact to feed to her. 

Any input on what might be going on would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks so much,
Howard


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Notsure. Hope she is ok. Did the vet try putting her in an incubator with oxygen? 
If she is not egg bound, not sure. I know you take excellent care of her. How old is she? Does she seem fluffed up?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She may be a bit older than what you are thinking. Many hens start having reproduction problems as they get older. They don't usually live as long as the males. This could be the problem. Hope she is okay. An avian vet would probably have known more and been able to help you more.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*NuNu has Passed Away*

I’m sorry to have to report that NuNu has passed away. We got her into the incubator but her breathing was increasingly laboured. Her heart shut down and we tried to resuscitate her but to no avail. 

The x-rays and ultrasound didn't indicate a problem with egg binding (at least to the extent that the emergency vet could tell, although she isn't an avian specialist - they have still been posted to a veterinary forum and we still expect to get input on what if anything the x-rays and ultrasound might indicate). We are going to get an autopsy performed. We don't know NuNu's exact age. She was old enough to have stopped laying eggs 1.5 years ago, and I found her 6 years ago with a broken wing. We assumed that she was relatively young when I found her but I suppose that she could have been a bit older.

I hope that NuNu's husband Philly is going to be OK. These days he does have other birds who (unlike him) can fly, and they fly into his territory and perch on higher places. He does coo back and forth with them. When the other birds land on places that he can access he often chases them away. I don't know if the other birds will be good enough company for Philly or if he might be in danger of being overcome by grief if he doesn't re-marry some time in the near future. I'd be most grateful for any input others might have about this.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry you lost her. I thought that was going to happen by the way it sounded. She is out of pain now. Her mate will miss her, but will get used to it. How old is he? I have males here who in time have lost mates and they eventually get used to it. Some will want another mate, but some that are older and have had their mate for a long while don't want another mate. If you ever get in another disabled hen, you could try and introduce them and see how it goes.
Again, I'm sorry you lost her.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Howard, iam so very sorry to hear NuNu passed. She may have had heart problems. That is what happened with our wonderful beloved Phoebe, who we had for eight years. Her breathing got labored. Am very sorry for your loss. I know though that with you she had a happy life and the very best of care.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Yolk Peritonitis*

Hi all,

My vet did a post mortem on NuNu, which showed that it was yolk peritonitis. Apparently she had been internally laying for some time (which I suppose is the early part of avian menopause, construed as the cessation of external laying as a bird ages), and she was almost out of eggs (indicating that she was older than we'd thought - at least 10 years old), but one of these last ones caused yolk peritonitis. My vet said that the yolk was fresh and it all happened extremely quickly. Although the emergency vet didn't know exactly what it was, she had actually done what one is supposed to do in such a case - which was to start NuNu on fluids and antibiotics with supportive care (which would be followed in at least some cases by surgery). My vet and the avian vets on the forum just said that many birds succumb to the inflammation and infection before the antibiotics and fluids can work. My vet also said that surgery likely would not have been successful in NuNu's case as the inflammation and infection came on too quickly and too massively.

Here are the notes that she sent me from the post mortem:



> Post mortem showed a yolk peritonitis. There was yellow runny yolk-like material throughout the abdomen and irritation of the peritoneum with thickening of the abdominal wall, fibrinous deposits on the liver, gizzard, and intestines. The liver is dark and mottled in appearance. Oviduct walls appear thickened and are covered in fibrinous debris. Could not find any other apparent follicles so was likely near the end of cycling.


I thought that I was onto NuNu's condition as soon as her tail-bobbing differed from what it had often been for the last year and a half. But I suppose that the main lesson is to watch the girls extremely closely, especially when they are getting close to laying or after they stop laying externally (as this is often followed by a period during which they are laying internally, during which this can happen).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howard, this happens often with older females, right around that age. Usually they will continue to have problems, and especially with the age, don't live very much longer. Remember that in the wild they only live maybe 3 to 5 years if lucky. I think that because they have a longer lifespan in captivity, they are going to run into more problems. By that age, when having these kinds of problems, it is sometimes just kinder to euthanize. They had a good life, now let them go gently and save them a lot of pain.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am sorry to hear about NuNu. We nearly lost Phoebe to egg yolk peritonitis soon after we got her and first she had surgery then had to get her deslorelin implants to prevent any more egg laying. Females sadly have so many reproductive problems.


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