# Color & marking help again



## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Both are this year cocks. Need help with colors and markings

#1


















#2 I think this one is black spread









Together:


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The first bird I still think is dilute blue (silver) t-pattern. The second bird is a plain blue not dilute. These are either t-patterns or spread. The second bird looks more like spread but I see some questionable spots.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

That helps 
I agree about the dilute blue (silver) t-pattern, but have no clue about the second one really. They look like they have the same pattern.
How can I tell if its blue or black spread?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If it has any colored tail feathers to look at, see if there is a noticeable bar or if the whole feather is black  Also, the outter two tail feathers, are they colored or white? If they are colored you can look and see if the edge of it is white/light colored. If that light strip is missing, then the bird is smokey (aka slate). They both look like they are just based on the feathers and the light beak, BUT light beaks can also come from pied markings on the head.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

You can also open up a wing with a colored flight and see if it's solid are not.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

I'll get better pictures of them and see. 
Ill look in the morning, but I seem to remember being able to see bar makings, but I'll double check.

Both look like what?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> If it has any colored tail feathers to look at, see if there is a noticeable bar or if the whole feather is black  Also, the outter two tail feathers, are they colored or white? If they are colored you can look and see if the edge of it is white/light colored. If that light strip is missing, then the bird is smokey (aka slate). They both look like they are just based on the feathers and the light beak, BUT light beaks can also come from pied markings on the head.


I agree Becky. I also thing that these birds are both smoky. I have rarely seen a pure white in beak caused by pied (at least not when the beak has coloured feathers around it). Pied usually causes a broken beak, with patches of black / white. Also these birds are probably not dirty, since dirty would have caused a dark beak tip, even in ****. smoky birds.

I am unsure whether these birds are spread or not though. There is really no easy way to tell other than looking at the tail. I have had many weak blacks that showed colour variation on the wing shield and flights, even though they were definitely spread.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Also these birds are probably not dirty, since dirty would have caused a dark beak tip, even in ****. smoky birds.


thought there wasnt a consensus on that. Atleast one dirty gene will keep a dark beak.




rudolph.est said:


> I have had many weak blacks that showed colour variation on the wing shield and flights, even though they were definitely spread.


think i may have one of those right now, still really not sure. Really was a toss up to if it was spread or not but bred it to a black mottle and i dont see any dirty feet. Probably will know by next round. Not so fortunate to have an endless supply of straight blue bar tipplers to breed to.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

the 1st pigeons tail has white feathers in the center. The wings are white with colored areas on theedge.
The 2nd pigeons tail is solid colored with slight white lining the outside of the outer feathers.

I'll get pictures of the tails soon


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Bird #1

















Bird #2


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The tail on the silver looks solid but the wings are still throwing me off. The second one looks black I think.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

I think the 2nd one is black spread as well, but I have no idea about the first one.
Is the marking t pied for the 2nd one?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes they are both pied, Looking at the second pic on the first post I thought the bird looked spread, The new pics make me sure it is. Becky - Spreads can be poor just like recessive red or other modifiers, If the birds is blue bar based with no darkening modifiers like dirty or bronze then this is how they will appear. All my spread racers are over blue bar with no dirty and appear this way

The wings are not really a tell tail sign of spread but the tail is.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

The 2nd one is black spread t pied, so now I just need to figure out what the first one is


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Its the same except its dilute, So I guess its a pied dun.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

dun is the dilute of black spread?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Exactly right!


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

yah! I learned something new! For some reason, I always thought dun had something to do with brown


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Lots of people call brown bars, Dun bars, Also people call dilute blue bars dun bars, But dun is the dilute of black.

Brown is obviously a base colour of its own, It can look a lot like dilute blue though.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Brown is obviously a base colour of its own, It can look a lot like dilute blue though.


Yip, especially in pictures. But when the birds are in hand, it is usualy a lot easier to distinguish brown from dilute blue, since brown fades a lot more due to sun-bleaching, and the false pearl eye which is already easily distingishable in young sqabs.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah - I had a young brown that had only just opened its eyes and I put my money on it being brown due to the pink look in the eye.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yeah - I had a young brown that had only just opened its eyes and I put my money on it being brown due to the pink look in the eye.


Precisely! There is nothing better (or more surprising) than the sudden realisation that a blue cock is [unexpectedly] carrying brown, when you see those pink eyes on a squab, and know that she is a brown! I had two such youngsters this season (it's still summer in South Africa) - one, a brown grizzle, and the other a dilute brown indigo!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I know spreads can be coarse but it just didn't look right to me. I'm thinking it's just where the feathers have faded and will be darker when it moults.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Precisely! There is nothing better (or more surprising) than the sudden realisation that a blue cock is [unexpectedly] carrying brown, when you see those pink eyes on a squab, and know that she is a brown! I had two such youngsters this season (it's still summer in South Africa) - one, a brown grizzle, and the other a dilute brown indigo!


Yes, I put the brown into this cock bird so knew I would get some out of him but it was just as exciting for me. The reason I studied genetics in the first place was to breed brown into my thief pouters so to see the results of this was pretty cool. The browns nest mate is a blue so because the father was red carrying brown, and the hen blue, I know he is carrying brown also. Its a weird kind of a sex linked pair, Reds in both sexes but apart from them I will only get blue cocks carrying brown and brown hens.

I would be interested to see the Indigo Khaki, Something I have never seen before.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I know spreads can be coarse but it just didn't look right to me. I'm thinking it's just where the feathers have faded and will be darker when it moults.



Yeah, I didn't even consider the wing shield as the tail looked spread and thats what I prefer to go by. Shame its not as easy on ash reds


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Birds with darkening modifiers can have spread looking tails. Such as most blackwing archangels.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Correct but I doubt that is whats going on here. and I always thought a tail bar would still be visible on close inspection?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Correct but I doubt that is whats going on here. and I always thought a tail bar would still be visible on close inspection?


Yes probably. I know the black is a black for sure. Let's just wait and see what the silver bird looks like after a moult and see what the babies look like.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looking at the two birds together, They both have the same wing shields and tails except one is dilute.
OP'er, I could be wrong but I think you can bank your money on them both being spread even without waiting for a moult or what they produce, By all means until breeding tests are carried out you cannot be certain but I will be very suprised if they are not spread.


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