# Expert Breeders



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

How much stock would you take in the notion that the first set of eggs from a young hen determines her value as a breeding hen?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Personally I wouldn't put any...breeding is a game of genetics which in and of itself is a game of chance and probability. To say that if her first set are good or bad determines her worth seems absolutely insane to me.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I wouldn't put any stock in it, to many things could go wrong she may not even "click" with the mate you chose for her.
Dave


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

None.

It all depends on who the hen is mated to. Moreover, 1 round of babies might be duds, but the 2nd right might be $50,000 prize money winners. No pair produces a 100% success rate. Some might be higher (Say 90% or 95%) but it would be a false statement to say 100% of the babies they produce are exceptional.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The like the first clutch of eggs out of a hen. I should run some statistics on the first round of eggs out of a hen and see how they do. You have me interested. I also like the first round out of a hen with a new cock bird.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I went back to 2010 because I introduced a good number of brand new hens 08 and 09 birds that were first year breeders. Here is the following first clutch and how the young birds did. 
Hen
FM 09 7761
(LL 927 16th 197m 338b)
(LL 928 2nd 252m 364b, 22nd 197m 338b)
Miller 678
(LL 940 8th 156m 341b, 23rd 312m 351b)
(LL 941 not great then lost)
LLC 1169
Neither did well
LLC 1168
(LL 944 20th 156m 341b)
(LL 945 4th 252m 364b, 24th 197m 338b)
FM 7754
Neither did well
LLC 1170
(LL 955 13th 252 364b)
(LL 956 no top 10% one top 20%)
12 birds first round out of first time hens-3 top 10s, 9 top 10%, 6/12 were points birds. 50% of the first round birds hit top 10%.
In conclusion, I like the first round out of a hen. I also have some first round birds breeding in my loft that have bred me winners.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Like others have said, Its a game of odds, The only way to determine a birds worth in the breeding loft is to raise atleast 8 young off them and compare with other breeding pairs. Obviously the more you breed the more accurate your result.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I went back to 2010 because I introduced a good number of brand new hens 08 and 09 birds that were first year breeders. Here is the following first clutch and how the young birds did.
> Hen
> FM 09 7761
> (LL 927 16th 197m 338b)
> ...


Interesting points Randy. I'm having thoughts about tossing out my first set of eggs from my young hens. These stats would just help me to justify my question put forth into action.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Last year was my first year breeding. I gave the first round away with a lot of birds and kept the second round. With the second round I got diploma winners and top 10% birds. I always figured throwing out the first round is simply so you can better guarantee the sire to the youngsters and to time it so all your youngsters hatch at the same time. If that is something you want to achieve then go for it. It is a HUGE, HUGE breeze to be able to band, wean, and trap train the birds at the same time. Instead of 2 on Monday 4 on Thursday, 8 on Sunday, etc, etc.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

This was the first year I ever kept track of my young birds, most years I didn't even plug my unicon in. You young bird racers have given me some thing to shoot for.
Dave


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Crazy Pete said:


> This was the first year I ever kept track of my young birds, most years I didn't even plug my unicon in. You young bird racers have given me some thing to shoot for.
> Dave


Wish I could fly OB time, money, etc are keeping at bay, at least I can fly my young birds. I think you said you fly Fabrys? Maybe one year we'll trade young birds to fly. Let me know.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Simply just giving data. A good pair should raise good birds every round. For instance that year 1168 raised 3 birds that were flown. One guy took a bird and then sat out. All three birds had top 10%, two having top 10s. She also raised a bird that won the race but was not allocated as the 25. Cliff who was flying my birds took 26 to basketting and could only scan 25. He just threw the bird in. Cliff clocked the 19th bird 2:00minutes out. The unallocated bird beat that bird by 7 minutes. They gave him hell at clock out. Needless to say the pair is breeding for me this year.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thing to think about is with different rounds of young birds, if not put on a system, will molt at different times. This gives new meaning to 1st, 2nd, 3rd rounds etc. If flown without pulling flights or manipulating the wing, one might breed birds accordingly.


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## warpaint (Dec 10, 2008)

kel-el, wouldn't you already know by now which birds produce for you or not. No one can determine if the first, second, third etc is going to be good or not. Everything is ideas or theories no matter what each individuals statistics are. In order for any bird to be deemed good, they must be on the race sheet. It's like a slot machine, first pull can hitt the jack pot , maybe second etc.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have a bird I call the gimp ,he is out of the first round from a young hen and an 8 year old cock. He wins every year from 400 to 600,he is the only bird I have out of a first round from a young hen. 
I got her from a combine young bird auction, I don't usually breed from a bird till it is 3 years old.
Dave


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> I have a bird I call the gimp ,he is out of the first round from a young hen and an 8 year old cock. He wins every year from 400 to 600,he is the only bird I have out of a first round from a young hen.
> I got her from a combine young bird auction, I don't usually breed from a bird till it is 3 years old.
> Dave


Crazy
There are a few guys that are like you and only breed after a bird has raced 3 years. I do not have that luxury because I do not fly out of my loft. Also if I do not take the good birds back after the race season, who knows what will happen to them due to the fact that I do not have any control over them. So that puts me in the position to breed from young birds. I bring them home as yearlings. If I do not breed from them they sit and eat. I do like the birds that they produce. I also like keeping my loft young. If I flew out of the loft, I would definitely stock them later for the most part.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Simply just giving data. A good pair should raise good birds every round. For instance that year 1168 raised 3 birds that were flown. One guy took a bird and then sat out. All three birds had top 10%, two having top 10s. She also raised a bird that won the race but was not allocated as the 25. Cliff who was flying my birds took 26 to basketting and could only scan 25. He just threw the bird in. Cliff clocked the 19th bird 2:00minutes out. The unallocated bird beat that bird by 7 minutes. They gave him hell at clock out. Needless to say the pair is breeding for me this year.


Send babies from this pair to the PT race and prove them there. With all the winning race results from your breeders, you're due to win this PT race.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Understand that "first" set of eggs are the very first eggs ever layed by a hen. Not first "round" that's allowed to hatch, which could mean a hen has been laying and just not bred. 

I've practiced this "first" set of egg breeding method for the past 20 years or so with birds (chickens, song birds, pigeons, etc) and have concluded many years ago that the youngs from these eggs have a lot of vigor and are actually very good at what they are bred for.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I went back to 2010 because I introduced a good number of brand new hens 08 and 09 birds that were first year breeders. Here is the following first clutch and how the young birds did.
> Hen
> FM 09 7761
> (LL 927 16th 197m 338b)
> ...


How does this compare to your other rounds? You obviously have good birds that will produce, but was the first round actually **better** than the other rounds, or were they just similarly good?


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## High Flier (Jan 19, 2011)

kal-el just get rid of you first set of eggs. They don't do you any good. Better yet, get rid of your birds if you don't think they can produce. Save some money on feeds. Let other people breed for you. That's what you do best.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> Send babies from this pair to the PT race and prove them there. With all the winning race results from your breeders, you're due to win this PT race.


I may if the timing is right. This is my 3rd or 4th pair on my list. I have only tested the three birds off of them. The cock bird is a sibling to my 2nd high points bird in 09 and the hen is off my futurity winner. This would be a good pair to send to an average speed contest. If the timing is right I will send a bird off this pair.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I would never throw out the first round of eggs out of a hen. I've had too many times where babies out of that first set of eggs ever laid were the best babies ever bred out of a hen. They've gone on and bred many other good birds but never to the caliper of the one from that first set. My observations aren't scientific or anything but from my expierences I would never throw out the first set of egg out of a hen. 

As for throwing out the entire first round of eggs to get a a full round within a few days I wouldn't do that either as many of the old timers have told me that the 1st round is usually the strongest babies out of the pair. But they are more or less saying they'll have the most vigor because the parents systems should all be replenished because of the long seperation. And they also say I'm dumb for breeding early and losing those first rounders to the hawks when you can breed later and have that vigor in the birds that you can let out when less hawks are around and you have a better chance of sticking.


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

Here is where I get a little uneasy at times, I think if you are going to fly all youngsters out of the first round then rock on....Cause attrition will set in.....If you are stocking some babies off the first round then who knows if they are good are not  But I here the definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So who really knows


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

warpaint said:


> kel-el, wouldn't you already know by now which birds produce for you or not. No one can determine if the first, second, third etc is going to be good or not. Everything is ideas or theories no matter what each individuals statistics are. In order for any bird to be deemed good, they must be on the race sheet. It's like a slot machine, first pull can hitt the jack pot , maybe second etc.


Believe me, I got rid of the hens that didn't produce. I shifted my breeding thinking to young hens and wanted opinions on the first set of eggs from a young hen.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

High Flier said:


> kal-el just get rid of you first set of eggs. They don't do you any good. Better yet, get rid of your birds if you don't think they can produce. Save some money on feeds. Let other people breed for you. That's what you do best.


Was that your plan that backfired? FYI, it's called testing young hens, not having a fire sale.


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

I will say its a lot easier to let someone breed your racers for sure and some may like that better than others.........



High Flier said:


> kal-el just get rid of you first set of eggs. They don't do you any good. Better yet, get rid of your birds if you don't think they can produce. Save some money on feeds. Let other people breed for you. That's what you do best.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

triple7loft said:


> I will say its a lot easier to let someone breed your racers for sure and some may like that better than others.........


Sure, but IMO, breeding is more interesting than racing.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

It's hard to test breeders because you actually have to fly their youngs, and, each hen can only give you so many per season. Just got to give it time. But, again, time could mean you suck for long time before you can figure out what's good in your loft. However, we want instant results. Can't wait for time. That's where a breeders personal "eye" comes into play. Breed young or breed old, it doesn't matter if one doesn't have the sense to select the "good" one's to breed from. For me, I've always bred from young birds and look forward to breeding from first time layers.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't know anything about the first eggs from a hen but I got a DVD movie and a guy Paul Haelterman known as "the Professor" of Belgium believes in the first egg fron a hen is her best. I will test this myself this year . I haven't made plans to start breeding yet but some of my race birds thought it was time to breed and I will let them hatch this first round of eggs that were layed already. I have no clue as to what these will birds will produce but I'm giving them a try. 

I posted a post about switching your breeders every year on another forum but got very little responce. A friend told me to keep my good pairs together that have raised winners before so you don't go backwards with your raceing resultes and he said why switch if they give winners, that's as good as you can get., so thats my plan for this year, keep the best as my foundation stock, let a few race birds breed and test these babies and make a few moves with my prisoner birds , maybe I'll get a few more super birds this way.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> I don't know anything about the first eggs from a hen but I got a DVD movie and a guy Paul Haelterman known as "the Professor" of Belgium believes in the first egg fron a hen is her best. I will test this myself this year . I haven't made plans to start breeding yet but some of my race birds thought it was time to breed and I will let them hatch this first round of eggs that were layed already. I have no clue as to what these will birds will produce but I'm giving them a try.
> 
> I posted a post about switching your breeders every year on another forum but got very little responce. A friend told me to keep my good pairs together that have raised winners before so you don't go backwards with your raceing resultes and he said why switch if they give winners, that's as good as you can get., so thats my plan for this year, keep the best as my foundation stock, let a few race birds breed and test these babies and make a few moves with my prisoner birds , maybe I'll get a few more super birds this way.


Good point. I've been weary of breeders that are around 3 to 5 years old when I come across them at auctions, online or live. My gut feeling is that they've been tried and were not too successful. Thus, they were made available. Breeders that are either young birds from good proven stock or older breeders beyond 8 or 9 years draw more attention from me. 

I'm testing out this theory with my own young hens this year. I have a few that come from good families that I'd like to see if it holds any glue at the end of the young bird season.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> Good point. I've been weary of breeders that are around 3 to 5 years old when I come across them at auctions, online or live. My gut feeling is that they've been tried and were not too successful. Thus, they were made available. Breeders that are either young birds from good proven stock or older breeders beyond 8 or 9 years draw more attention from me.
> 
> I'm testing out this theory with my own young hens this year. I have a few that come from good families that I'd like to see if it holds any glue at the end of the young bird season.


Agree. I tell those that want birds from me. I tell them that I would take late hatches or youngsters off my good pairs. Otherwise the birds I would give them do not make my cut as breeders. Not that they are not good, but not the best. When I acquire birds from others I like to get them off the race team and at least have a race record and know that they are from a proven pair. Get young birds off their golden pairs.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

ERIC K said:


> I don't know anything about the first eggs from a hen but I got a DVD movie and a guy Paul Haelterman known as "the Professor" of Belgium believes in the first egg fron a hen is her best. I will test this myself this year .


For Christmas my wife surprised me with all the Jim Jenner videos. I'm learning more than I thought I would and I can't wait to finish them all, then go back through them again taking notes. Paul Halterman is full of wisdom even if some of it is pretty old school.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Where can I find the video by Paul Haelterman? I'm an information junkie for that kind of stuff.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think you can find some of the videos on youtube.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

www.pigeonfilms.com PACCOM inc , Tel 1-406-859-8001

I have " Secrets of Champions " 1through 4 . Ad Schaerlaeckens dvd which is my favorit so far, "The Dark & The Light " Dvd which I haven't watched yet, "The Queen's Wings" which is about the Queen racing against her counrtymen, and the "Best Of British II"
which features Frank Tasker and Geoff Kirkland and I've only seen part of that one.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Ad Schaerlaeckens reminds me of Charles Barkley. His cander and opinions are much like Sir Charles. It's refreshing to hear Ad tell it how it is. I bet it would be awesome to spend a day with Ad and pick his brain.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Love your screen name. I collect old comic books.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I have a few myself, mostly DC.


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