# Pidgeon Fledgling? Central Ohio USA.



## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Pigeon fledgling Columbus Ohio.*

Hi. I was at work today and found a pigeon walking along the sidewalk. I walked towards it and it made no attempt to fly at all. Is this normal for a fledgling? It's a very handsome bird, fully feathered, but may be thin as I can feel it's breast bone easily. It seems stressed about being caught. It's making sad little squeaks. 
I've penned it up with some bird food and water.
If it's normal for a fledgling no make no effort to fly I'll put it back where I found it. If that's not the case I'll take it to a rehabber.
I'm sure the answers I need are here but I'm supposed to be working and don't have time to look. 
I took some pictures but can't find the cable for my camera.
Thanks for any help.

PS, this is the first time I've seen a pigeon here on the apt complex. 
Plenty of doves but no pigeons.
PSS. Found camera cable


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks for caring !!

She/he is squeaking because that's the sound babies make (we call 'em 'squeakers at this age).

Is she/he eating or pecking at food or anything like that ? If you have some birdseed, try that. Or wheat or wholegrian bread, crunched up. Or breakfast cereal (not sugary) crunched up. Also for water, you may wanna hold her gently in one arm and with the opposite hand dip the beak into a shallow bowl of water, about halfway in on the beak. They will often recognize and begin to drink after a few tries (just don't dip in up the the cere (nostrils) obviously).

It could be she is not eating on her own yet. I would suggest getting some frozen peas if this is the case. Come back and we can advise on how to feed them.

Looks to be 5 or 6 weeks old, so possibly just fledged but is having trouble making it in the Feral world. If you found her alone and there are no signs of other Pigeons around, she/he probably lost his parents....in which case, would be a goner without them to guide him/her for the first few weeks.

Do you know of a good rehabber in your area ? When you say central Ohio, can you give us a locality ? We may have a Forum member near you who can help out.

The thing to be careful about regarding rehabbers is, you gotta ask them what their policy is regarding Feral pigeons. Many wildlife care facilities won't bother healing or raising a Feral pigeon....they will nod and take them from you and kill them, basically. They will also be a bit evasive when you ask that sorta question...as in "well, the most important thing is that you bring the Pigeon in and then we can fill you in on all of that"...or some version of something similar...THIS is a Red Flag, bigtime.

If you had any inclination, you could probably care for this little one for a couple of weeks, get her up to strength, then release her/him yourself.

Is she/he alert ? Can you feel her chest area and tell us if the breastbone/keelbone is very prominent, or if there seems to be some good flesh to the breast area ?

You have done very well. Additionally, keep her/him in a very WARM place...am talking an ambient temperature of at least 75 degrees F. You can use a space heater (not the electric coil kind) or a heating pad under one layer of towel, with enclosure half-covered.

Thanks for helping ! And saving your pal's life !!!


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi thanks for the reply. 
The bird has been pecking away at the bird food I put down for it this morning. It's very alert and definitely doesn't want to be handled. 
I went to the pet store and bought a variety of food. They didn't have pet dove food so I bought the junk they have for the wild birds. I also bought a can of grit, and something called Grains and Greens. Got a can of crickets too. Will young pigeons eat bugs? I once had some pet quail, they loved crickets. Also got some millet sprays. 

I have a heating pad I can put down for the bird. The temperature inside right now is 78. The vent he's under is shut. 
What stuck me most and made me pick the bird up is that it just doesn't flap its wings at all. 
I was just checking the bird now. He seems to be willing to move the right wing some but the left doesn't budge. 
I think this bird's keel is very prominent but I'm no expert. 
Bird has 2 containers of water. I dipped his beak in. Husband thinks he saw him getting a drink just now. 

I have a bit of experience with Sparrows and Starlings, Robins and Blue Jays. Bird can stay here with me if all it needs is rest and a good feed. 
I'm in Columbus Ohio. 
Thanks.

PS. I also have some bird vitamins and calcium powder.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK.

Things sound pretty stable. Room temp is good, as long as it doesn't dip dramatically at night. Maybe the heating pad at night ? Again, on LOW, with a layer of towel on top.

Do the following, please:

1) Pick him/her up and wrap in a towel so head and tail stick out...wrap snugly but not too tight. Hole in your lap. With the other hand, gently pry her/his beak open and look inside the mouth. Is it sorta pinkish ? Is it very gray ? Are there any signs of yellow or white specks or growths...or mucous ? Take a quick sniff of the open mouth. Does it smell sour/bad ?

2) Two people for this one. One person holds the Pigeon's body, but allows the wings to be free. the second person gently extends both wings. You can do one wing at a time. Extend fully, then let go. Do both wings seem to open fully without a problem ? Do both wings sorta 'snap' back into a closed position ?

In the least ...she is underweight and was probably dehydrated as well. Such a weakened state creates a negative feedback loop...they feel sick, they don't eat, they become weaker because they don't feel well enough to eat...and they just decline, slowly and horribly. Pigeons have a remarkable will to live, really amazing. Utmost importance is to get her weight and strength back up. I am guessing this one is either ill or just didn't 'catch on' to the Feral way.

DO make sure he/she is actually EATING the food and not just playing with it or tossing it around.
'
A good, fast way to get a baby pigeon to gain weight is by handfeeding thawed defrosted peas. But before we get to that, we need to know the results of question 1).

Thanks.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi cookiebun,


Can you post some images howing some of this yougster's freshest poops?

The sequence must allways be - 


Observation period, and evaluation of whether the Bird is dehydrated or ill or injured...and or starving also.

If dehydrated ( which is typical of grounded youngsters who do not know to eat or drink by themselves ) then one initiates rehydration with an appropriate electolyte solution ( regular plain 'Pedalite' is fine, any Grocery or Drug Store, or, dissolve a good pinch of Salt, a pinch of Sugar and a pinch of plain Baking Soda in a 8 ounce Glass of Water ).

Young Pigeons will drink if their Beak is gently guided into a Tea Cup of tepid Water or Solution...it must be tepid ( close to body temperature ) and, one must gently guide the Beak in to it and keep one's finger tip pads on the Beak, for them to drink. Soon, with this, they get the idea and will begin drinking by themselves, but previously, all water caom from mom and dad, as did all food.

On general principles, one would usually just do this from the get go, so long as the grounded ( and not running away ) Bird's Crop is investigated first to see if it is empty or had Liquids or other matter in it - rehydrate, unless it is obvious they do not need it, and observe from there...with food pending.

So...check the youngster's Crop ( front part of their Body ) and, if no Liquids are felt to be there, go ahead and see if you can assist them in drinking some appropriate rehydration-electrolytes.

Post some images of their freshest poops, soon as some are being made.

If he is dehydrated ( and he likely is ) he will ( or will need to ) drink most of the 8 ounces of Solution ( with assistence, as described ) over the next fourteen hours or so, where we can then begin thinking about feeding him ( once he is rehydrated )...this will also allow his digestive system to start clearing out old stalled materials for excretion.


Best wishes!


Phil
L v


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Ok. 
I will inspect the bird in the morning. It's tucked in and sleeping now. Bird was pretty unhappy about me tidying up its pen before bed time. I put a heating pad down, under a towel and the bird was sitting on it last time I looked. Bird has plenty of space to get off the heating pad if it gets too warm. 
I think the bird is eating the seeds. I didn't clean up much food, I just didn't want the bird to spend the night in a bunch of poop. 

I get up very early (5am). and will post birds condition before 6:30 am. I noticed on another thread folks here asked for pics of the bird's dropping. Would that be helpful here? 

I am concerned about checking the birds left wing. I haven't seen it move that one at all. 
We have pigeons in the area, just not here on the complex. Is it possible the bird was flying with it's flock and wasn't strong enough to stay with the group? If it got better could it find it's family again?


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Phil,
saw your message just as I posted mine. I'll get the pictures posted in the morning if the batteries in my camera don't go dead.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sounds good...

If he/she has been pooping a l;ot, then, of course, we can assume they have not been starving or dehydrating...( but that does not tell us if they are eating or drinking on their own yet ).


Poop images soon as you can...


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Poop pictures didn't come out so well, sorry. Bird has been awake since 530 am. 
The inside of his mouth is very pink, like the second picture here:
http://www.pigeon-aid.org.uk/pa/html/canker.php
No smell at all 
Keel not as prominent. Front of chest, neck feels spongy. 

Bird is even more lively the morning. Makes REALLY unhappy noise when I have to bother it. Preening and extending both wings. I wouldn't say the wings "snap" back into place. The bird gently folds them back into position.
I have a 30 minute break at 1030 am est. I'll give quick update then. 
thanks.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

The fact that she stretches both wings is good. The squeaks are not 'unhappy' sounds...matter of fact, you wanna hear those sorta vocalizations. You also wanna see 'em being 'uppity', as you describe...that is also a good sign.

Good news on the mouth...this means she doesn't have Canker, which is very common. This also means you can proceed with feeding peas. (The "spongy" sac in the front is his/her crop...so if it is spongy it means he/she has been drinking and eating some...which is good).

Get some frozen peas, run them under hot tap water until they defrost (check to make sure the insides aren't still cold or frozen). Let them cool to lukewarm (again, make sure the insides aren't hot).
Holding the Pigeon using teh Towel method, pry the beak gently open and 'pop' one pea into her mouth, towards the back, and close the beak. She should automatically swallow.
Star with around 6-8 peas per feeding, 3 feedings/day. If she/he really gets the hang of it, up this to 12-15 peas per feeding, 3x/day. Keep the feedings at least 4 hours apart.
This will just help put weight on quicker than just seed and water. You will likely only need to do it for around 3 days.

The poops..seem to show an absence of white stuff. I see wormy dark solids surrounded by a halo of clear liquid. This might be coccidia. If I were to guess, I would say it is, and I would treat for it and see if things improve. As conditions go it isn't a horrible one, but should be cleared up w/meds in due time....

Appartex can be purchased online at Jedd's or Foy's. It is a simple administer...one small pill once, then again 7-10 days later. If it is coccidiosis...the poops should start showing white w/i 2 days of the first pill.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi Jaye thanks for the reply. 
We gave the bird some peas and sprouts before we read your message. The bird absolutely loves both, especially the sprouts (broccoli). 
Here's a picture with some poops from 24 hours ago. My husband took these with a better camera:


I'd say there's not as much white in the poop today as there was yesterday. 
Here a pic of the cage we set up for the bird. It's out of the way and near a window so he can at least tell the time of day. 

He also has a weird shaped rock to perch on. What do you folks think? Bird refuses to sit on heating pad so I didn't put it in. 
I was out working today and SAW A PIGEON BUILDING A NEST!. Haven't seen that in over 20 years of living/working here. Maybe this bird's family is near by.

If the bird needs meds how quick can they arrive? Bird still doesn't flap its wings but does move them while preening. 
Here's another pic from yesterday:


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

The poops look much better than the initial photo. There's white, and dark. That's good. Keep an eye on the poop, we'd like to see the white returning at least occasionally.

Now, if he/she seems alert and curious, I think you are in good shape.

Keep up the feedings. I'd say as long as the ambient temperature doesn't dip below 65 degrees or so, he/she will be OK. Heat is usually given for ailing birds because it boosts their immune system but based on all you have reported, the baby seems pretty healthy...just undernourished. Also, a heating pad under the paper towel, even if the Pigeon isn't standing or sitting on the towel...will give off radiant heat and keep the cage warm as long as the cage is partially covered (around 60% covered)....so just for future reference they don't have to be actually sitting on the towel.

Some red flags to be aware of and keep an eye for:

1) listlessness

2) eyes closing often or squinting

3) fluffing up of feathers a lot

4) body not warm

5) loss of appetite

Put a little more weight on them bones, and in a few days we can start discussing the *Soft Release *process you are gonna have to do in order to return your pal to the Feral world. It's easy and doesn't take much out of your day. It can be sorta fun, also. 

Still too young and thin to start quite yet, though....

You guys are doing a hecka good job, BTW.....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pigeon really do like flat perches rather than round ones...maybe because a flat perch reminds them more of a building ledge. Pigeons love to perch on bricks and so putting a brick on the floor of the cage would undoubtedly be appreciated.
Another trick is to hang a mirror in the cage so the bird can look at his own image...keeps a single bird form getting depressed.
The poop looks much better but they should be more formed.
It's amazing just how much a pigeon crop can hold. I just finished popping 65 defrosted peas and corn into a 3 week one pigeon and I would recommend you try to get a couple of more good meals into this guy to jump start him eating on his own.
Finally, to the wild bird seed you can add...dried peas, lentils,chopped peanuts and safflower seed. The wild bird seed is good for a temporary fix but it's like feeding him a snickers bar at each meal.and pigeons need a higher protein content which the peas will provide.
He's quite a handsome pigeon.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Thought you might find my pre-written feeding instructions helpful, which really works well, so here they are...


*If you are seeing bright green poop, it could be the bird isn't eating enough on his own and may need to be hand fed. It also could be ill. Often the young birds will try to eat the seed and so folks assume they are eating when they really aren't.
It would be great if you could post a picture of the poop so we can give you a better opinion.
You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas and corn on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas and corn make it feel lumpy and squishy.*


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You may be able to find these peas in bulk at the grocery store. They would be good to add to the mix as well, ...maple peas, green field peas, yellow field peas, and Austrian peas.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Bird seems happier in new cage. I've noticed when the bird is sitting down or not aware it's being watched its feathers will be puffed up. when it knows you're watching or it's being handled its feathers are smoothed down. 
Bird seemed pretty curious about its surroundings while we were moving it into the new cage. It was bobbing its head and looking all around. I wish it wasn't so shy and stressed about being around people. It would be fun to be able to watch it puttering around and checking out its food. 

Soft release = moving it to outside cage and letting it come and go when it wants? 
We've done that with Sparrows, Starlings and 1 Robin in the past. The Robin came back to be fed in the winter which was neat. The other birds hung around for a week or two. One problem, we have hawks in the area though I haven't seen any for several weeks. I got rid of our bird feeders because of the hawks. 
We really enjoy the wildlife and help them when ever we can. My husband tosses out shelled peanuts several times a day. We have sparrows, cardinals and 6 squirrels that come for the free breakfast and lunch.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Charis,
would a bean or pea soup mix be good for that? The stuff that comes in a bag? The only time I've ever noticed safflower seeds was in bird food. Would the health food section have raw peanuts and safflower seeds?
We'd been wondering about the mirror. 
Bird will get a brick and mirror in the morning. 
I put the branches in because I see pigeons on wires. I wanted to make bird a ledge but can't find anything that won't hurt his feet or be too slippery. 
Thanks.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You could put a shelf across the back of the cage. I use smooth clean wood and about 
7" wide. I'm sure the bird would love that.
The pigeon shouldn't have dried beans but if the store you go to doesn't have bulk bins, look in section where the dried split peas are located and you might find some dried whole peas of different varieties. Split peas will work too.
Another option is contacting a feed store near you to see if they carry a pigeon mix. You want to buy one that is at least 14% protein content.
Yes...a soft release would be the best after he has recovered. Sounds like you have a bit of a way to go with him before that happens.
Didn't you say you saw a pigeon building a nest in the area? if so, it's good pigeons are around.
Sounds like another great save, on your part.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

cookiebun said:


> Soft release = moving it to outside cage and letting it come and go when it wants?
> We've done that with Sparrows, Starlings and 1 Robin in the past.


NO...not exactly...it's different with Pigeons. It is about a week of acclimating them INSIDE their cage, no access to outside time at all; all their acclimating is done behind bars...then one day it's time for a permanent release. If you let them out early in the acclimation process, you have really done a disservice and things will not end well.

PM me for the details...it only takes about 15 mins/day for about a week, and you can even skip a day or two in there. 

I didn't know you can do something similar for Sparrows and such...cool.


This one seems like a perfect candidate exactly BECAUSE she/he is skittish around humans and tries to drive you off when you service the cage. That's not the greatest sign for a Pigeon you wanna keep as a companion bird, but for one you wanna release it's exactly what you wanna see.

keep an eye on the fluffing. Is it accompanied by closed eyes ?

That is something to remain vigilant about....there may be a small illness going on in there....


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Jaye said:


> NO...not exactly...it's different with Pigeons. It is about a week of acclimating them INSIDE their cage, no access to outside time at all; all their acclimating is done behind bars...
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's how we did the other birds. Move them outside for a week or so then let them out. The problem with that is I end up with a hawk camped out over my patio eying the bird in the cage.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird update.*

The bird is not doing as well today as I'd like. I just finished cleaning it cage and I had to get the bird out. I could feel the bird's keel a lot more than I did yesterday. My husband saw it pecking at it food plate but I don't think it ate much. 
I think it's been bathing in one of its water bowls. The cage and food was wet. The bird spent the whole day in a totally wet cage with wet food. 
I did the "pinch the beak open and dip in water bowl trick" Bird definitely drank some water. Until the bird starts drinking on its own I can't hang the bowl up where the bird can't use it for bathing. 

I bought a variety of peas:black eyed peas, lentils, split green peas yellow peas. Do I soak all these until they're soft? I gave him a couple of the spit peas and lentils in his seed mix. Still can't find raw peanuts. Got some raw chopped almonds instead. 

Managed to get a shelf into the cage. Bird likes hiding under it. 

Bird flapped its wings pretty vigorously when I was handing it. Passed a mostly black, watery poop.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

No...you don't need to soak the seed but put them in the mix. I would leave the black eyed peas out. But...
*I think the bird isn't weaned and you need to start hand feeding, using the directions I gave you as a guide.* It's not unusual for them to pick up seed and then drop it without eating the seed. The problem with this is that they give the illusion they are eating whe they aren't. I'll posdt the directions again.

You did a great job with the cage, by the way.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Here you go...*

If you are seeing bright green poop, it could be the bird isn't eating enough on his own and may need to be hand fed. It also could be ill. *Often the young birds will try to eat the seed and so folks assume they are eating when they really aren't.*It would be great if you could post a picture of the poop so we can give you a better opinion.
You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
*You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas and corn on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.*This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas and corn make it feel lumpy and squishy.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks Charis. 
I put a bunch of peas in the bowl that the bird is pecking at now. If the peas are gone I'll know the bird really ate something. I was actually gong in there to force feed it some peas when I saw it at the bowl. I didn't want to interrupt it so I backed off. 
So I can actually just put the dried peas in the seed mix ? The yellow peas are kind of big:
http://www.purcellmountainfarms.com/Organic Yellow Peas (whole).htm
I'm really worried that handling the bird is making it very stressed and is part of the reason it's not doing so well.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

You know...I would think the heavy feeding can only do him/her good....so, if you feel she is showing signs of slow decline, I would be inclined to start her on some meds. I think tom'w (Thursday) you should call Jedd's or Foy's and have them express mail some trimeth sulpha OR Amoxycillin, and some Metronidazole, and perhaps some Appartex.... so you can have it for the weekend.

In that instance, should your pal's condition seem to go south, you are supplied with some good stuff.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Well I just had to force feed the bird a bunch of peas. 
He'd been pecking in the bowl but hadn't actually eaten anything. 
Do I just force feed the soft peas and corn or can I give him some of the peas and lentils I bought today? 

Bird put up a big fight. 
Bird let off a big poop on me, sorry no pics. 
My black slacks, socks and shoes inside and out have LOTS of white & Brown stains. 
I have to tend to my other pets now. More in a bit.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Bird tucked in for the night now. Only got about 30 peas in it. 
Put bird ON its new shelf. I think he likes it. 
I know that bird ate sprouts yesterday and I no it ate some seeds on Monday.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Could someone post links to the actual medications at Foys or Jeds? 
I'm having trouble locating them. I have to go to bed for work tomorrow. I might try to order in the morning before work.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Foy's:

Appartex:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/667.html

Metronidazole:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/534.html

Amoxycillin:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/593-1311.html

If you prefer, send me a personal message w/ your address and I can express-mail you some, with some other meds.... on Thursday.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Bird had 45 peas. for breakfast. Fought less. 
how many hours till crop empties? I have a break at 10:30 and can feed more then.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

45 is more than I would give at a single feeding, actually. I think 25 per feeding is more than adequate as a weight-gainer (Charis and I see things differently on that count). Quite honestly...if you did 45 this AM, she/he doesn't need to be pea-fed again until noon or even afternoon, then.

I am glad you are getting meds.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks Jaye. 
Finally have the raw peanuts and safflower.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Fresh poop.*

Bird did this as I was feeding it corn. Pictures taken immediately. Sorry about the poor quality:





Bird sipped water on its own out of a paper cup.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Bird update. 
Bird eats smaller seeds and drinks water on its own. 
Bird can pick up larger pieces of food but won't eat them. 
I've seen it toss the big yellow peas a round. 
We set up a pen on the floor to encourage the bird to stretch its legs and wings. It hasn't tried to fly at all.









Poops still have no white stuff in them.

Really need a reply on what you folks think of the last poop pics I posted before imageshack deletes them.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> 45 is more than I would give at a single feeding, actually.* I think 25 per feeding is more than adequate as a weight-gainer (Charis and I see things differently on that count). *Quite honestly...if you did 45 this AM, she/he doesn't need to be pea-fed again until noon or even afternoon, then.
> 
> I am glad you are getting meds.


Yes...we do disagree and it's one of those issues that I see as very important . Because we disagree and because I value you highly, I checked with other rehabbers and some veterinarians a couple of months ago. 
I didn't give them information other than to ask if 20 peas, divided into 3 feedings per day, was enough food to support a young pigeon or wean a young pigeon. 
Since I asked the question, I have noticed that your daily recommendation of the amount, has increased. 

As you can imagine, the replies were varied, although no one suggested that the amount you suggested was enough. Each response is in a different color
Here is a sampling of the responses that I went back and found in my email.

This from a veterinarian that specializes in pigeons [not Colin Walker, although I did ask him but he did not reply]

If I were to hand feed a pigeon, I would never feed it beyond 19 days of age. I wean mine at 20 days and am always amazed how fast they learn to eat and drink.
I would also avoid "defrosted peas" ( I assume that these are thawed frozen peas) but would instead feed a mixture of various peas such as maple peas, green field peas, yellow field peas, and Austrian peas. I would also add a pinch of Corral grit at each feeding.
The young one would probably not die from 14 to 19 days of age on 20 peas but its growth would not be optimal. I would rather give it 150 peas once a day with a pinch of grit and enough water. Then I'd wean it to some other birds, preferably youngsters that can eat already, and my job would be done with it.
I hope that the above is of some help.This from a wildlife veterinarian…

Charis, I know you know the answer to this question, so what’s going on that you would ask.
This from a rehabber….

o	20 defrosted peas is not much at all, hardly enough calories for a growing baby. At that age, the parents would be filling their crops with seeds at least 2-3 times a day. I'd probably feed 40-50 peas/corn several times a day, depending on how quickly their crops empty.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The poops look pretty good to me.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Should I be able to feel this birds keel at all? 
Stuffing the bird with peas and corn seems to have motivated it to try to eat on its own. It really hates being manhandled.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird made it onto perch.*

We rigged up a stick as a perch and the bird finally hopped on:









First time it's perched.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well you can feel it, but not sharply. There should be flesh on either side of it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Yes...we do disagree and it's one of those issues that I see as very important . Because we disagree and because I value you highly, I checked with other rehabbers and some veterinarians a couple of months ago.
> I didn't give them information other than to ask if 20 peas, divided into 3 feedings per day, was enough food to support a young pigeon or wean a young pigeon.
> Since I asked the question, I have noticed that your daily recommendation of the amount, has increased.
> 
> ...




Just so that future readers don't try to stuff 150 peas into a pigeons crop, all he meant was that he would rather do that than to give him as little as 20. That just isn't enough.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Well you can feel it, but not sharply. There should be flesh on either side of it.


Yep that's how it feels. 
Bird took about a 1 foot flight to get away from me. Perfect landing.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks for the info regarding the vet suggestions. It's interesting feedback. My reasoning for 20/feeding is that in my experience, the Pigeons get stressed on such sorta feedings and it is best to err on the side of caution. 

First feeding (ever) I try for 7-10 morsels...second feeding 9-12...third feeding try to get it up to 15-20 and then just go with that. 

Regarding weight gain, while it would be silly of me to claim "the vets are wrong !"....I will continue to respectfully disagree (with apologies)....60 peas/corn a day is certainly sufficient to result in a weight gain over a period of about 4 days for a (significantly) underweight baby of approx 3-4 weeks old...this from personal experience, rather than from being argumentative. 
I have done this enough times to know that this amount in that age youngster results in weight gain. I can certainly conceive that for an adult Pigeon or one of 5+ to 6+ weeks it might not maintain on that amt., however.

Interesting to note that their crop can hold as many as 50 of them. I cannot say I would ever attempt that in one feeding, really...although I understand that others do w/o adverse effects. Comparative crop size of a full crop on a 3-4 week old baby from a parental feeding ...to a lump of 50 peas...will visually show the latter to be significantly more mass than the former.

When it comes to meds I tend to be very aggressive, as does my avian vet. But when it comes to feeding veggies, I tend to be less so because of the stress factor on the bird. Babies in a near-starvation state should not be aggressively fed, IMHO. I have had a couple of bad endings when I tried this in the past....whereas I have never had a negative effect from the lesser amount/day which I tend to recommend.

As I said, it is one of the few things we disagree on.....

Regarding your situation...you have rec'd Charis' meds...good. I would be inclined to dose the anti-coccidial then maybe the wormer a couple of days later. At the moment, I see no need to begin any antibiotic...unless, again, the baby takes a turn for the worse.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

From my experience, Jaye you have it in reverse. A growing baby needs more food to grow and thrieve...which is what they are supposed to be doing...growing and thriving.
That a baby would be in our care in the first place is an artificial situation, which is stressful for that baby not to mention being taken away from the mom and dad, maybe injured or sick ...all stressful. Add the stress of not enough food and the potential for illness, if the baby isn't sick already, greatly increases.
This past week, I was called to a barn full of starving, sick pigeons. I brought home 5 squeakers so weak, while at an age they should be flying, were unable to. All had keel bones so sharp and no muscle on either side of the keel. There were probably 100 squeakers left, just out of reach, fluffed and lethargic. I suspect they had managed to consume the equivalent of 20 peas a day but it wasn't enough.
I could go on and on with other starving baby stories.
My experience, 25 years, is not that they get stressed with the hand feeding but rather quickly figure out what the popping of the peas and corn is all about.
However, if a person feels awkward feeding this way, I can see how it could be stressful for the bird and the person. It takes a while to develop a rhythm.

I did include directions for the medications. *I don't recommend worming baby just yet but wait until he is completely weaned. I remember others that have wormed young birds too early and had them die. *The exception would be if the bird was expelling worms via the droppings.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well...then any reader who comes upon this or other threads concerning veggie amount has a decision to make, I suppose.

I feel such large amounts to an already-compromised baby runs the risk of stressing or causing other problems...more of a risk than a more gradual regimen of smaller feedings which work the baby 'up' would cause. So while a baby (obviously) can deal with such massive amounts of veggies/day...that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best course of action.

As I noted, in the 2 experiences I had where I attempted the numbers even near what was suggested above, the baby's end came very quickly (one instance where I was actually helping someone else, and another member - not you - interjected and insisted that this person get on a more aggressive feeding regimen and amount...resulting in the Pigeon not making it to the end of the day, although his condition that day was NOT in the danger zone upon being secured).

As I said, my experience just tells me otherwise; so my inclination when I see suggestions on the board which run counter to those experiences makes me feel obligated to chime in. It is, I suppose, ultimately up to the reader to look at the two sides and make their own determination; or take a point in-between....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Well...then any reader who comes upon this or other threads concerning veggie amount has a decision to make, I suppose.
> 
> I feel such large amounts to an already-compromised baby runs the risk of stressing or causing other problems...more of a risk than a more gradual regimen of smaller feedings which work the baby 'up' would cause. So while a baby (obviously) can deal with such massive amounts of veggies/day...that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best course of action.
> 
> ...



Jaye...there is no way of knowing if the deaths of the 2 pigeons you are talking about, was caused by feeding or something else. Birds are great pretenders, one can't always tell by looking if they are out of the danger zone and internal injuries can't be seen. 
Prior to feeding, the bird should be thoroughly warmed and hydrated or the act of feeding will kill them. I know from experience. The last baby pigeon I lost was about 15 years ago and I am pretty sure I didn't warm him long enough before starting to hydrate him. He died within seconds, as I watched, helpless to do a thing. He is one of the ghosts in my life and I think about that baby often...wish I could take it back. That was the last baby pigeon lost while in my care. 
Believe me, I know how painful it is to lose a bird but you are comparing your 2 experiences with the hundreds of baby birds I have raised without losing a one. 

Sorry for hijacking this thread. I'm done with that now. I felt I needed to make a stand for the people looking for help that will be reading it in the days, weeks, months and years to come.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird update.*

The bird seems to be doing well except it seems reluctant to fly. I just finished doing some exercises with it and got him to take a couple very short flights. 
Been getting his meds though he hates it. Eating well but seems to want nothing but seeds. I may cut back on the seeds and put out more peas/corn to encourage him to broaden dietary horizons. 
I'd really like to start getting some info on how to get this bird back to the wild. 
Thanks.
Jaye I tried to send you a PM but your box is full.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Seed is good. He probably won't be finding any defrosted peas and corn in the wild. Certainly he can't be released until he is flying good and has finished his medicine.
Do you know of a pigeon flock, in town, that is supported by someone that feeds them?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sorry, Cookie...inbox is working well now. Charis is correct...although you may be eager to get him/her back out there, don't rush it.

Keep up with the supportive care. Cannot *Soft Release* until your pal is flying pretty well, anyway.

For flying...try this:

Hold him/her at about waist-height and stand about4 feet away from a couch or a bed. Give the Pigeon a little toss toward the soft surface. Hopefully, he/she will flap and land. Maybe this is what you are doing already.

If it is a complete disaster, let us know...something might be up. But assuming he/she can land on her feet...you can do this a few times a day and if it seems successful then increase the distance.

Hard to tell from the pic but the right wing seems to be droopy...is it ?


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

My husband has been worried about his wings. Take a look at the attached pic. He usually sits a bit lopsided like this. 









{BIRD JUST FLEW FROM FLOOR TO CAGE!!!!! }
No pigeon flocks that people feed that I know of.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird update*

Thanks for all the help everyone. Sorry I haven't been on this week. Work was really intense. 









Bird is slowly starting to fly short distances. Still prefers to walk. We did the "toss it onto the couch from a short distance" bit. That really traumatized the poor creature. It was actually trembling afterwards . It's nowhere near being ready to release. 
We have better luck getting the bird to fly if we just get it out of its cage and don't bother it. Bird flew a short distance across the room to get to its cage in the picture above.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Throwing or tossing a bird is not a good idea. That's like throwing a kid into the water and saying "swim!" If he isn't ready to fly, and doesn't realize that you are going to let go, that could be very frightening to a bird, just when he thought he was safe in your hands. Just holding it up in the palms of your hands over something like a soft bed is okay, and if he is ready, he will fly or flutter down to the bed. If you move your hands slowly up and down, just a bit as he sits in them, he will get the idea. If he doesn't fly, he isn't ready.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Did the couch toss thing on the advice of someone here. 
Yeah, the bird was a wreck after that. I like to have him perch on my arm and then move my arm up and down and get him to flap his wings. I'll hold him a short distance from somewhere he wants to be, move my arm up and down and he'll fly a foot or so to get away from me.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cookiebun said:


> Did the couch toss thing on the advice of someone here.
> Yeah, the bird was a wreck after that. I like to have him perch on my arm and then move my arm up and down and get him to flap his wings. I'll hold him a short distance from somewhere he wants to be, move my arm up and down and he'll fly a foot or so to get away from me.


He will fly when he's ready. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Helicopter And bath. 
The bird is doing great and seems to have finally discovered the joy of having wings. We open the cage and it flies right out. It has this funny thing it does; it flap its wings real vigorously but only lifts up a fraction of an inch off the ground. It will hover like that and turn in a circle. Cool to watch. It's just like a helicopter. 
Finally remembered to buy a big pan for a bird bath.Put that out yesterday. Bird had a blast. 
Bird flies pretty confidently but never very far. 
It's finished all its meds except the worm pills. 
Thanks everyone.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cookiebun said:


> Helicopter And bath.
> The bird is doing great and seems to have finally discovered the joy of having wings. We open the cage and it flies right out. It has this funny thing it does; it flap its wings real vigorously but only lifts up a fraction of an inch off the ground.* It will hover like that and turn in a circle. Cool to watch. It's just like a helicopter. *
> Finally remembered to buy a big pan for a bird bath.Put that out yesterday. Bird had a blast.
> Bird flies pretty confidently but never very far.
> ...


Yes, it's cute when they do that. Just exercising his wings. Bet he loved the bath.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Throwing or tossing a bird is not a good idea. That's like throwing a kid into the water and saying "swim!" If he isn't ready to fly, and doesn't realize that you are going to let go, that could be very frightening to a bird, just when he thought he was safe in your hands. Just holding it up in the palms of your hands over something like a soft bed is okay, and if he is ready, he will fly or flutter down to the bed. If you move your hands slowly up and down, just a bit as he sits in them, he will get the idea. If he doesn't fly, he isn't ready.


I respectfully disagree with this. It is nothing whatsoever like throwing a kid into water.

I laid out a very safe and gentle procedure for doing this. Look at the pics; the baby is clearly of an age where he/she should be flapping and flying. If Cookie's intent is to release, and if the baby is not gung-ho on using her wings by herself, then _these safe sorta 'tosses' are exactly what one should do to see if the Pigeon is willing or capable of flight._

I don't disagree with you much, Jay, but on this issue your suggestion is far too conservative to determine whether this baby can get to the point it would need to for a release. You suggested letting him go a few feet above a bed. I suggested giving a gentle toss afew feet away from a couch. It's the same thing....

The tosses will either determine he/she is capable and just lagging in development....or actually compromised in ability to fly.

Nothing dangerous or cruel or even traumatizing about it. It's one of those necessary things.....In the wild they don't just casually take their time learning to use their wings...their life _necessitates_ it and oftentimes a shy baby is pushed into it, lest they get left out or behind....so as long as you set up a gentle landing place, there's nothing wrong with small-toss.

Cookie, am glad she/he is flapping now. Hopefully that will graduate to short flights. 

You may wanna mix in some whole-grain bread to the diet, crumbled up, as well....


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Does the right wing stilldroop when the bird is standing?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes, I got distracted from that...Kamz makes a good observation.....perhaps your pal is behind in flying ability because there's something up.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

No, the wing hasn't been drooping. 
The bird has been free ranging in a sheet covered bedroom for the last 36 hours. Looks out the window a lot. Flies short distances w/o trouble. 
We are going to take him outside this week end. 
I know of about 3 pairs of pigeons in this area, no flock. 
Still working on where to release him.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I can't recall If this was already mentioned and if not disregard this but...

If you take him outside you will need a small cage. Even if he only flies a little now, and comes back to you.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

kamz said:


> If you take him outside you will need a small cage. Even if he only flies a little now, and comes back to you.


I have previously e-mailed Cookie with Soft Release instructions, so she is referring to the start of that process.

By 'take her outside', Cookie means outside to feed with the Ferals, but from INSIDE the cage.

I think we are on the same page here, because I think Kamz is also saying don't take the bird out without being inside a cage. Just wanna clarify for any other readers: Soft Release should never allow the Pigeon out of cage until the ultimate day of release (which in this instance is likely still 10 days-2 weeks away).

Cookie, let us know how his goes. Those 6 Ferals you know of, do they seem healthy and in a pretty safe location ????


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird update.*

Bird is doing well. Finally has figured out it can get away from me simply by flying. Flies around the room pretty strongly now. Lands perfectly.
Husband has thought of a good place we might take bird for release. We are going for our first visit tomorrow. Got a cage to take the bird in and went out side for a little bit today. 









Bird got very excited and made that pitiful squeaking noise. He didn't like being carried in the cage. Outside he looked all over, all around, listened to every sound. He was quivering. Was he excited to be outside or scared? 

Bird spends its time free ranging in the room, we don't try to put it away. Found a good roosting spot:










Hope the pigeons by the river are hungry early to tomorrow morning. 
Here's a picture of bird enjoying his bath the other day:


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Cute.....probably both excited and scared. I always imagine here is a fledgling and he/she has been inside or in a secluded location all of her/his life....then one day they see that huge, vast blue thing above their heads and all around 'em.

Can you imagine ? Must be thrilling...really something.

An unacclimated Pigeon will still sometimes appear to want to get OUT of the cage and join his/her brethren. Do not be fooled by that. Might even be a passerby stops and inquires why you are being cruel to the pigeon by not letting him out.

Usually, just explaining you are in the middle of an acclimation process which takes several days, and the Pigeon is an orphan... makes them wanna strike up a (positive) conversation with you.

I cannot reiterate this warning too much; people often let their emotions get the better of them in these situations and convince themselves "aaaw....he wants out so bad, I am SURE he'll be OK if I let him go _today_ instead of next week !"

Maintain your fortitude.... and be SURE that your pal is repeatedly exhibiting all of the foraging and fleeing indications we talked about via e-mail; and exhibits them for several days. (Remember also that if you don't see those indications....he may not be releasable)

The Feral flock will for sure be wondering what's going on with this guy/gal; why does he/she have it so cushy ? 

Your report on the flying is EXCELLENT news. Exactly what we wanna hear: the young one should be developing a good ability to take off and land, turn corners, all of that stuff.

Good luck and report back with how the first session goes. Your buddy is very lucky to have found folks like you !!!!

...pssst...just offhand...I think he is a _*she*_, IMHO....


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Bird had his first visit with his wild brethren early this morning. The place is fantastic. It's under a bridge next to a river in a park. There's a flock of about 30 pigeons. 
We put the cage on the ground with some food for about an hour. It was next to a puddle where my husband says he sees the birds drinking pretty often. 
None of the birds came down to eat the food we put out. I guess the bird in a cage was too strange for them. This is probably going to take several days. Bird got pretty excited and wanted out of the cage badly. He only settled down to watch 2 pairs of pigeons in a courting display. That was interesting. 
We are going to try to get there even earlier tomorrow and bring more food. I'll take some pictures and post them later.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sounds good. Next time, try this:

Put the food down FIRST, and keep the cage concealed or far away from the feeding spot. That Flock is likely not used to someone delivering take-out right to their doorstep (or puddle-step, as the case may be).

Then when they come down to feed and are eating for several minutes....place the cage down on the periphery of the feeding area. They will spook for sure, but I am guessing some of the more intrepid ones will come back down.

I guess you are doing two parallel acclimations, really ! Acclimating your friend, and acclimating the Flock to allow the cage to be there !


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

My husband took these this morning.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi cookiebun, Nice pictures. First of all, it looks as though you have put down small bread crumbs, in the picture. Tossing some seed down, along with larger pieces of torn bread, like maybe an inch long, they would be noticed more. Also, pigeons are funny. If you put feed down where they aren't used to it being, it could take them a while to adjust and come to it. If I were doing this, I would go a few times and put down bird seed along with torn bread, (not crumbs), as they can easily break it up themselves. I would get used to them coming to that spot to feed for several times before actually introducing the cage to the area, as the cage will make them suspicious. I don't know how long a drive it is for you, but I know it would work better if first you got them comfortable with going down there for food. And then introduced your bird after they get used to that spot for a source of food.

One question...........do people drive or park their cars where that puddle is? Because if so, there could be stuff like ani-freeze or oil mixed in. Wouldn't be a very healthy watering hole.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

No bread crumbs, just seeds. 
The green stuff in the water is algae. I'm surprised the birds drink it but my husband assures me it's a popular spot with all kinds of birds.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Yeah sorry guys as pertains to my previous post. shoulda realized you would be all over it jaye  

I have been saddened to see a member ob here lose their bird through taking it outside. Kinda makes me worry a little when I see people talking about taking their birds outside. 

Cookiebun, your photos are invaluable to showing other people how to release. And your pidgin is sooooooooo cute! Best of luk and hoping to see more photos, and goo luck with the acclimatization process.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Another update*


























More photos of where we've been taking the bird. 
Yesterday about a dozen pigeons came down to eat for about 2 minutes before they spooked. We waited another 30 minutes but most of them never came back. 
My husband had to take the bird by himself this morning.
He said at one point at least 30 pigeons were eating before they spooked after 5 minutes or so. Bird was a little calmer. 
Can some one suggest a way to mark the bird so we can tell which one is him/her from a distance? 
We plan to continue to leave food after the release. 
Bird now flies very well with good control. Flies all over the room we've been keeping it in. I'm surprised it doesn't try to try to fly around the rest of the apartment. 
Thanks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Those are really great shots. If they are nesting under there over the water, they'd be pretty safe from predators, but it would be curtains for any fledgling that fell from the nest.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

You could buy a legband from Jedd's or Foy's, online....maybe an orange or yellow one....if you wanted to identify your buddy once released. 

That set of pics is more like it...they are getting a bit more used to the cage now. Are they also used to a human in the vicinity doing the feeding ? I ask because it is gonna have to get to the point where a human, the cage, and the Flock can all be in the same gaggle....with the Flock surrounding the cage, and them not being put-off by you or your husband's presence. This only because you are gonna have to alternate feeding and spooking as I described in my e-mail; and some of that feeding has to land in your buddy's cage, too.

But great progress, so far !


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

We stay right there in the car when the cage is out. 
People are down on the bank fishing all the time. 
The birds are fine with cars and people nearby as long as you don't walk directly towards them. Lots of joggers go by too.
Food gets put into the bird's cage as soon as it goes down on the ground. He actually ate some of it today.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

kamz said:


> Yeah sorry guys as pertains to my previous post. shoulda realized you would be all over it jaye


Hehe....Figured we were on the same page there...as Gil Scott-Heron once sang : "semantics are always a b#tch..."

What you talk about happens all too often, I agree.....matter of fact, I did that w/ the first baby I ever saved...let him walk around with the Ferals, right there outside, freely. Charis straightened me out fast on that.

As I said...looks good as a start, Cookie. Thing is, we are gonna have to figure how you can sppok 'em from the car area and still have them come back. I suppose as the days go by, small spooks will not make them flee as much as they are now....


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird update*

Visits to the river have been going well. The wild pigeons come right up to the cage now:










Husband reports that a few come back after something startles them. 









Bird's band from Jedd's arrived today. This will be bird's new life tomorrow morning if he stops agitating at the band. 


















Thanks everyone.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird wants out.*

More pics of bird. I think it wants out.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Bird with band.*

This is the band we got for the bird:
http://www.jedds.com/-strse-1642/E-dsh-Z-Ring-Lock-Bands/Detail.bok










How does that look? 
Bird doesn't really like it.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Stunning ! Fine color choice. 

HEY...psst...*stay the course* on the Soft Release process . As I said in my e-mail....this is the point where people blow it. They do a few visits...the Pigeon/Dove begins to act soooo badly like they want into the big, bad world....and people's hearts overtake their heads and they just let the bird go before it is ready.

*Stay the course*, keep it up...the time will come when you have set him/her up much better than currently.....


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*disappointing day*

Got down to the river today a little later than usual. 
A hawk was perched on a light pole and the other birds were doing all kinds of alarm calls. Also a ditzy guy in a van there who couldn't hold still for more than 3 minutes. Kept getting in an out of his van, kept the door open the whole time.
The pigeons never came down. 

The bird is bored in the bedroom.He wants to go. I'm not letting him go if there aren't any birds close by. Hopefully we can get there before the guy with the van tomorrow. If that doesn't work we'll try Monday.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

Jaye, how much more time are you recommending?
We're worried the bird will never learn to be wild.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Birdy is free*

Bird 24 hours after release:









With some buddies. Our bird has the blue band on it's leg. 
I've drawn a red arrow where it's hard to see.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

*Birdy is free part 2*

This board wouldn't let me post all the pics. 









We let him go yesterday morning and my husband took the photos above this morning. I want to thank everyone here for their great advice, especially Charis, Jaye and Jay3. 
As an extra bonus here's a photo of a mother and baby pigeon:


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you go back to check on him, please let us know how he is doing. Great pictures.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

We're gong to check on him and leave food for a while.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hope he does okay out there. Let us know.


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## cookiebun (Jun 2, 2008)

From this morning:


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