# Paramyxovirus Symptoms versus Paratyphoid Symptoms



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

There has been some confusion and discussion on this forum in the past about the similarities and differences between the nervous symptoms of PMV and Paratyphoid.

These two articles (from the same source) should help members that *suspect* that a pigeon in their care has one or the other disease decide which is more likely. Because of space constraints I am copying these as separate posts.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Nervous symptoms of PMV*

*PMV*

The first sign of the disease is increased water intake and watery droppings, soon some of the birds show central nervous disorders like paralysis, torsion of the neck, increased timidity and typical twisting movements of the body. To detect the infection at an early stage these nervous disorders can be provoked if there is reason to suspect the disease. A pigeon suspected of Paramyxovirus is put into an unaccustomed position, for example it is placed on its side, or is frightened by the clapping of one's hands. Pigeons suffering from Paramyxovirus are no longer able to control the takeoff reflex in such situations of fright. They either fly against a wall or overturn in flight. The infected pigeons show typical behavior when trying to eat their grain. They try to pick the grain, but just before reaching the grain they jerk their head sideways' thus missing the grain. This condition will worsen until the bird will not be able to pick up any seeds at all.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Salmonella - Paratyphoid*

Salmonella

There are four different forms of the disease:

Intestinal Form: This form causes diarrhea with slimy/aqueous brownish to greenish droppings, the droppings will be surrounded by fluid and may contain pulpy undigested feed. The intestines are inflamed, feed cannot be broken down for its nutrients. Since the pigeon can no longer absorb the nutrients its starts using its blood sugar, when that is depleted, it uses its fat reserves and then finally its protein i.e. muscle tissue. Soon the pigeon is emaciated (starving) and the dies. 

Articular Form: Salmonellae can quickly multiply in the digested feed. Through damaged intestinal walls they pass easily into the blood stream. From there the blood will carry the disease throughout the whole body. The pathogens may settle in the pigeons joints where they cause painful inflammation. The pigeons body reacts by the increased formation of fluid to these joints, therefore the swelling. The inflammation manifests itself by the pigeon letting a wing droop or holding its leg up to ease the pressure put upon the joints and alleviate the pain. 

Organ Involvement: The disease can also multiply in the different organs of the pigeon especially the liver, kidneys, spleen, heart and pancreas. Tumor like yellowish gray nodes are formed. The changes in the organs are not characterized by any typical external symptoms except listlessness, difficulty in breathing and rapidly progressing debility. 

*Nervous Disorder: Salmonellae can enter the brain and the bone marrow and cause inflammation there. As a result of the inflammation there is increased pressure exerted on the nerve cells causing an impaired sense of balance and finally paralysis. *


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Based on these can we say that going light on weight and the holding the leg up is more common in the case of Salmonellae than in PMV and both diseases can be accompanied by torsion of neck yet always expressed in case of PMV ?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I agree on going light and lameness being more common in salmonellae, but torsion of the neck isn't always there in PMV...Feefo, my first PMV rescue (August 2000) didn't do the neck torsion until she relapsed and Hurdy never had torticollis.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for these posts, Cynthia! Let's see what comments are made in the next few days and then these posts need to go to "Sticky Land"!

Terry


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hello Cynthia, I am wondering what treatments and medications would be used for each of these two diseases.

Am I right in thinking antibiotics are of no use in treating PMV unless there is a secondary infection, whereas Antibiotics could help or completely cure in cases of Salmonellosis??

I am wondering what symptoms would definitely prove PMV and not Salmonellosis.Is it the inability to pick up seeds and spinning around on one spot? Or droppings formed in puddles? etc

Also what confuses me is that both diseases have torsion of the neck which I understand could mean that the pigeon has PMV or Salmonellosisor or Streptococcus.

If the pigeon had elbow joint and leg joint thickening would this mean that the pigeon probably had Salmonellosis rather than PMV.

Lyn and Maggie told me that if a pigeon has a slight head tremors and blinks alot that usually means PMV???

Do you think it would be best to just give antibiotics routinely if one cannot decide either way? Would that be bad for a bird with PMV? 

I would be very interested to hear from someone who has successfully treated and released a pigeon in to the wild which has recovered from PMV and who has been able to monitor the pigeons progress . I am on the understanding that you cannot release PMV pigeons as they relapse????

I think this is a very interesting thread. Be great to hear from those who have had experience of both these diseases as it will be so useful as a sticky.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Thanks for these posts, Cynthia! Let's see what comments are made in the next few days and then these posts need to go to "Sticky Land"!
> 
> Terry


Absolutely. I think I may copy the original posts to "resources" later and sticky them, whilst any discussion can take place on here.

John


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

John_D said:


> Absolutely. I think I may copy the original posts to "resources" later and sticky them, whilst any discussion can take place on here.
> 
> John


I absolutely agree, these posts should be added to the sticky on PMV and also on any stickies of Paratyphoid.

Also, the summary/conclusion that shreesh and Cynthia wrote would be helpful to add as a quick referrence.

"While going light and lameness is more common in paratyphoid, neck torsion can be symptom of both diseases, however, it is not always there with PMV but can manifest itself upon relapse????is that right?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

good info Thanks Feefo


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> "While going light and lameness is more common in paratyphoid, neck torsion can be symptom of both diseases, however, it is not always there with PMV but can manifest itself upon relapse????is that right?


Sure is. I brought one of ours home because she was showing the neck torsion, a long time after she'd had PMV. The initial symptoms were very mild, hardly even noticeable, but her short relapse was far more 'typical' of a PMV rescue. She's fine again now after a short vacation 

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Right, Jayne, antibiotics are no good for PMV as such. Whether one treated for concurrent infections (bacterial or other) would be, I guess, down to the individual, Personally, I'd hesitate about antibiotics 'just in case' and prefer to give if poop analysis showed problems or there were specific symptoms which indicated a need. Not so sure that it would be easy to make a judgement on a bird with 'active' PMV anyway. Once the most obvious symptoms have abated then I think other problems may be better recognized - example being one I had here who had recovered from PMV but had a stubborn swelling on the eye cere which looked to be, and was, Conjunctivitis and probably Sinusitis too, easily cleared up with Baytril.

Baytril seems to be the most recommended tratment for Salmonellosis and is alleged to eliminate the potential for a bird to become a carrier after it has otherwise recovered. 

The symptoms of seed tossing, spinning, fine tremors of the head and 'jumpy' eyes would all indicate PMV, as would the aiming at food and missing. 

The watery pool with a thin 'wormlike' dropping is a very good indicator of PMV, but if it's a feral rescue it's pretty hit and miss whether one would spot that - after all, it's generally when we see the nervous symptoms one realizes a pigeon is in trouble and the droppings may have changed at that stage. Of course, if there's an 'odd looking' pigeon one takes in, just because it is (for instance) standing immobile and something tells us "it just don't look right" then it may not show obvious signs for maybe a week or ten days, and we may first see the 'PMV poop' (I say that from observation, not theory).

The swelling or thickening at the joints is typical of one form of Paratyphoid, certainly, and is not a symptom of PMV, so if I saw a pigeon with neck torsion (particularly if it was not a very active bird) and joint swellings I'd go for Salmonellosis.

This topic is useful, because when we get someone report a pigeon with 'twisted neck' or 'head upside down' and have nothing much else at that point, it is most commonly going to be PMV or Salmonellosis but it's the 'whole clinical picture' that can narrow it down. Getting poop analysed, to sufficient depth of testing, could pull up Salmonella (or just a 'non specific bacterium') but without blood tests, the best guide to PMV would usually be multiple symptoms.

I think it would be best not muddy the waters and bring in all the other possible illnesses here which may or may not 'resemble' PMV or Salmonellosis in some respect - I'm sure between us all we could come up with a pretty definitive cross reference of possible symptoms and illnesses if someone wants to kick off a thread on that. 

John


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

It could be a good idea to put a PMV pigeon on treatment for Salmonellosis, anyway... so there you would be coverd.. unless that would hinder the rest of recovery for some reason.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Sure is. I brought one of ours home because she was showing the neck torsion, a long time after she'd had PMV.


Just to clarify, this was another one that had no neck twisting during the course of the disease itself.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

spirit wings said:


> It could be a good idea to put a PMV pigeon on treatment for Salmonellosis, anyway... so there you would be coverd.. unless that would hinder the rest of recovery for some reason.


Sure, like I suggest, it's really the call of the individual. I had read somewhere that Baytril (for instance) may prolong the abatement of nervous symptoms of PMV - but then, if there was also a bacterial problem going on, I think one might have no choice but to dose them anyway. As you say, sw, at least one is covered. May simply be that the Baytril has a damaging effect on 'good' bacteria too, at a time when the bird needs everything it can get going for it.

John


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

John_D said:


> Sure, like I suggest, it's really the call of the individual. I had read somewhere that Baytril (for instance) may prolong the abatement of nervous symptoms of PMV - but then, if there was also a bacterial problem going on, I think one might have no choice but to dose them anyway. As you say, sw, at least one is covered. May simply be that the Baytril has a damaging effect on 'good' bacteria too, at a time when the bird needs everything it can get going for it.
> 
> John


I see, thank you.. I would probably do it... prolonged symtoms would be the lesser of dying from Salmonellosis I would think....it is good to know the risks though. And then follow up with probiotics..


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> prolonged symtoms would be the lesser of dying from Salmonellosis I would think


The test that the website suggested was to help people determine whether torticollis was caused by salmonella or by paratyphoid. It would be a very unlucky pigeon that had both, but if that is a possibility then IMO it would be less stressful on the pigeon to send a poop sample for specific testing for salmonella (c £12 in the UK...probably cheaper than a course of Baytril).


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Feefo said:


> The test that the website suggested was to help people determine whether torticollis was caused by salmonella or by paratyphoid. It would be a very unlucky pigeon that had both, but if that is a possibility then IMO it would be less stressful on the pigeon to send a poop sample for specific testing for salmonella (c £12 in the UK...probably cheaper than a course of Baytril).


probably cheaper?... here is cost 250.00 for a culture and sensitvity test...most people can't do that..so I would medicate if that was the case..


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> here is cost 250.00 for a culture and sensitvity test


How weird! £12 is probably about $18. I had a full postmortem on a pigeon that died, it include testing for salmonella (negative) and even that only came to £75. Someone is making a lot of money!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Feefo said:


> How weird! £12 is probably about $18. I had a full postmortem on a pigeon that died, it include testing for salmonella (negative) and even that only came to £75. Someone is making a lot of money!


yes, found this out the other day.... did not pay attention as all my lab work is free because I work there...I was shocked to say the least..having one done right now..results should be in this week...had some questionable droppings..so it is free why not get it tested to see what may be going on... most can't afford to do that here..as I have learned.. it is the lab idexx that my vet works with.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> probably cheaper?... here is cost 250.00 for a culture and sensitvity test...most people can't do that..so I would medicate if that was the case..


Now I get the point why many members here ask for advise on the symptoms rather than a fecal sample test at first !!! Here we get fecal analysis and sensitivity tests free, the only thing which needs to be paid is INR 5 as the registration fee per animal/bird !!! So naturally when I suspect a sick bird, what I do first is get the fecal sample tested


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Now I get the point why many members here ask for advise on the symptoms rather than a fecal sample test at first !!! Here we get fecal analysis and sensitivity tests free, the only thing which needs to be paid is INR 5 as the registration fee per animal/bird !!! So naturally when I suspect a sick bird, what I do first is get the fecal sample tested


You are right, although I am aware that not all countries have the same resources available to pigeon rescuesrs I assume that things like tests cost the same everywhere. This has been a real eye-opener!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

And there are places where the vet's don't really "do" pigeons. The only answer they provide is "euthanize the bird if you think it is sick, it's just a pigeon, right?"

Seriously. Not everyone in the US has access to avian. Even those that do can find it _impossible_ to get pigeons treated.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

In this world economy that now exists, and in any economy. It would be a hard thing to take a pigeon to a vet, or have lab tests done. Sadly, some things are just not economically feasible to many. There is no way that I could take every injured or sick pigeon I encounter, to a vet or have lab tests done. That is why this site is so valuable. The internet as a whole is also so appreciated, for things just such as this.

I have known families that have had to put their greatly loved pets down, due the the high cost of having it treated for accidents or illness. When you have a ten year old dog or pigeon that is injured or sick, and the vet tells you that there is a 50% chance of it surviving if he does this or that, at a cost of 200 or 600 dollars. Then you have to think about that 50%, your family needs, and the life span that "may" be gained if you do so. To some, 200-600 dollars is lunch money. But to many, it is a weeks pay.

Sometimes it is a fairly easy choice and sometimes a gut wrenching choice. I spent 200 dollars on a racing pigeon last year, to have it taken care of by a vet, due to being shot by a dove hunter. It recovered fine, but three weeks later, it was killed by a dog. It was a racing pigeon, and they need to be let loose and not caged up 24/7. Or they are not a racing pigeon. Just a bird in a cage.

I tried to save him (and succeeded actually). But that 200 dollars may have been better spent, put into a savings account for my grandsons education.

Something to think about.

(I fully expect this to be an unpopular point of view on this site, and hope that I am not lambasted too bad)


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jaysen said:


> And there are places where the vet's don't really "do" pigeons. The only answer they provide is "euthanize the bird if you think it is sick, it's just a pigeon, right?"
> 
> Seriously. Not everyone in the US has access to avian. Even those that do can find it _impossible_ to get pigeons treated.


It can be a problem. Here in the south of England there's a vet surgery 20 miles from me with two exotics & avian specialists, but the next nearest 'bird vet' is over 70 miles.

Thing with getting samples tested, though, is that any vet _should_ be able to do that, or get it done.

John


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

John_D said:


> Thing with getting samples tested, though, is that any vet _should_ be able to do that, or get it done.
> 
> John


Your emphasis is will placed. I would add _willing_ though. I think they *can* but have the standard "anti-pigeon" bias that seems to be prevalent. 

A thought just occurred to me: 8 month ago I would have considered myself "nuts". Education can change your view of things very quickly.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Feefo said:


> How weird! £12 is probably about $18. I had a full postmortem on a pigeon that died, it include testing for salmonella (negative) and even that only came to £75. Someone is making a lot of money!


Got the total back in it was $220.94, it was normal..... That would of been alot of money for it to be normal..that is if I had to pay for it.. must of just been a nesting poop..


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

clavamox will treat both, is effective, and less invasive than baytril, baytril will do the work, but it will kill all bacteria, good and bad


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

cubanlofts said:


> clavamox *will treat both*, is effective, and less invasive than baytril, baytril will do the work, but it will kill all bacteria, good and bad


Will treat both what?


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

John_D said:


> Will treat both what?


Think he meant Clavamox will treat both Paratyphoid and PMV.

Cubanlofts - PMV is viral infection, antibiotics does not work against it. An otherwise healthy pigeon will recover from PMV with supportive care and antibiotics are used to prevent secondary infections that can arise while immunity is down.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> Think he meant Clavamox will treat both Paratyphoid and PMV.
> 
> Cubanlofts - PMV is viral infection, antibiotics does not work against it. An otherwise healthy pigeon will recover from PMV with supportive care and antibiotics are used to prevent secondary infections that can arise while immunity is down.


right, thats what i meant.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

i have a bird inside the house now, tumbling a little, using his wings to walk a little, but his crop is full, next to heater, clavamox every twelve hours, feed and water next to him, he s gaining weight, but still walks funny, i would say he s in the middle of pmv, hope he ll be k, he is getting a royal treatment any commnets on supprting himself eith one or the other wing when he walks, at least iam happy he s eating, do


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Conditionfreak,



> ... I tried to save him (and succeeded actually). But that 200 dollars may have been better spent, put into a savings account for my grandsons education.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> (I fully expect this to be an unpopular point of view on this site, and hope that I am not lambasted too bad)


We are all different, for some reason or other, and consequently have differing although changeable opinions.

Some opinions may not be popular, and some may be unacceptable on this site. My views on pigeons and other animals have changed over the years, and it is interesting (to me) to revisit the views and opinions I held years ago. I changed to a vegetarian diet five years ago, partly due to the loss of a pet pigeon, rescued-as-a-baby and hand-raised male, *Pidgiepoo*. 

Several years ago I was visiting family in my native Texas. A brother had grabbed an injured baby white-wing dove, wanting to help it, and thought he broke it's wing ("I heard something snap."). When I proposed taking it to a vet, he indignantly said "No you're not! We eat these things here!" He kept it in a relatively large cage on a table on the roofed patio, safe from his dogs, and watched over by the bird's parents.

The dove eventually escaped on foot, lived in the dry thorn brush and scrub of the dry creek bed behind his house (there was a summer drought). It would come through the wooden fence for the dog food, and was caught a few weeks later by one of his dogs. 

I suppose for him a visit to a vet would have been the equivalent of one of his kids spending fifty or sixty dollars for a bowl of breakfast cereal. Outrageous, and not done.

Larry


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

cubanlofts said:


> i have a bird inside the house now, tumbling a little, using his wings to walk a little, but his crop is full, next to heater, clavamox every twelve hours, feed and water next to him, he s gaining weight, but still walks funny, i would say he s in the middle of pmv, hope he ll be k, he is getting a royal treatment any commnets on supprting himself eith one or the other wing when he walks, at least iam happy he s eating, do


What you've said there does not sound to me like a bird with PMV. Why do you believe the bird has PMV, rather than (for instance) Paratyphoid? 

As Sreesh said, an antibiotic will not do anything for PMV. Antibiotics would only be useful if there was good reason to think the bird also had a bacterial infection.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sounds more like a Calcium uptake problem, or B Vitamin deficiency, or a Leg injury.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

well, is not gonna hurt to be treated by mox, in the mean time, he is warm inside the house, cant be calcium, cause feed is super balanced, or vitamins, cause is on the feed, so i guess is just a matter of taking care of him, no legs injuries, thats for sure. if it not pmv and is paratyfhoid , i guess he will be covered, so if is pmv, he s getting warm inside and he is in good hands, is a win win situation, the only thing is that if if s pmv, them he wouldnt be needing the meds and he s building an inmune system weaker to clavamox.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

i am not sure what was wrong with him, but he s eating pretty good, and drinking, he escaped today inside the house, and it took me like 4 min to catch him, so he can fly pretty good, loljust checked his crop, he is real full, so he s getting better, at least he looks like it, he s stronger than 3 days ago, 4 more days and he s getting the boot out, before my wife gives me the boot instead


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