# Tumblers and Training.



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

I can't wait till tomorrow!
Today we were getting some work done on the house by a friend whose friend popped round to see him.
The man who came said he has around 40 tumblers and asked to have a look around our aivary. 
Firstly, he told us that the birds were- as he put it 'fat'. 
He explained to us that we should put in the food bowl leave it for a while than take it out not as we do leave it inside the aivary. The birds get 1 full dog bowl a day between 14 of them also they get the 4 bird feeders filled up once they are emptied which most of ends up on the floor anyway because they only seem to eat the sunflower seads!
Once he had told us this we mentions that we were thinking about getting a couple of rollers and he then offered us a pair of tumblers! Do these need the same care as doves? They are coming tomorrow! Can we put them in with the doves? 

He also gave us a few tips on breeding-
He said once a pair have laid two eggs take them and put them under another pair! Then the pair that had the eggs should lay another two- getting 4 eggs from 2 birds!
I have never heard this before. Would the birds raise a bird that was not their own? Another breed at that?

On another note I decided yesterday to try to tame some of the birds to stand on my arm- It was successful! I am so pleased how quick the pair got the idea that it was easier just to stand on my arm than to keep flying away hear are some photos- it is amazing what 1 hour of training can do!









I was quite silly and chose two that are probably going to go tomorrow!








I will take some photos of the Tumblers tomorrow we are also hoping to get a pair of fantails but not definate yet!


----------



## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Becca
Glad to hear you are getting some performing birds. They are a lot of fun to work with. 
Moving the eggs is a common practice called fostering. It alows one to raise more babies from the best performers. It`s best to foster two rounds and let the "breeders" raise the third round. The eggs should be laid with in three days of each other. Preferably the breeder eggs first. To get them in time lock all of the breeders and fosters down in a box each at the same time. When all the pairs have laid discard the eggs.They should all lay again within ten days. Foster the breeder pair and discard the leftover eggs. Keep this cycle up and use the best two or three pairs you have and the birds will get better every year. I use two pairs of fosters for each pair of breeders. 
The tumblers and rollers should be housed seperately from the doves. They will beat them up. 

Most important is it takes two or three years to achieve a good kit of tumblers/rollers. Fly them in groups of 10 -20. More than 20 and you really cant see the performance,too many birds. Breed as many as you can this season and fly them. Pick the best the next year and breed them together every year. Foster a bunch and do it again. Each season your stock will grow exponentially and it will get faster. I bred 8 birds the first season,and was happy to get those.
NUMBER ONE RULE. Never fly your breeders. 

Watch the trees and light posts for hawks and falcons while you are driving around in your neighborhood. Familiarize yourself with the preds in your area.If you open the box and they don`t want to fly, close the door and try tomorrow. Thier eyes are way better than ours.

Good luck and don`t be afraid to ask me any questions you might have.

Here is a pic of the box I just built for my rollers. I put two more rows of perches across the other side. I can get 25 birds in here pretty comfortably. Adult birds are flown every day or two and with the dowel door an aviary isn`t neccessary. 
Box is 42x36x51. If you want them to perform it is neccessary to house them in a box similar to this. If they have too much freedom they will not perform.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Can I ask you Velo.........why are rollers/tumblers kept in a "box" instead of a loft? And why is it shut up so tight? I've always wondered that.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

velo99 said:


> Here is a pic of the box i just built for my rollers. I put two more rows of perches across the other side. I can get 25 birds in here pretty comfortably. Adult birds are flown every day or two and with the dowel door an aviary isn`t neccessary.
> Box is 42x36x51


25 birds???


----------



## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Lovebirds,
They are performers. They don`t need unlimited freedom due to the fact they are released to fly quite frequently.
I treat them as atheletes. They get the best of everything I have to offer. Feed is the fuel to help them get the best they can offer. If they get too rich of feed, all they can do is spin the tires. Not rich enough and they got no umph. It is a fine line we tread as managers. Feed and exercise are the only controls we have over our birds once they hatch. You have to give a nice place to live so they will come back. I open the doors for a few hours every day for sunshine and fresh air. The box is well ventilated and fairly light due to the wire floor even with the door shut. I have the four perches in the box and I know each will hold six birds comfortably. Thes boxes are for flyers not breeders. I don`t want them breeding, I have a building and birds for that. These guys are the workhorses.
My breeder loft is 6 x8 x 8. Houses a mere 10 pairs. It includes an 2x8x8 aviary.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

velo99 said:


> Lovebirds,
> They are performers. *They don`t need unlimited freedom due to the fact they are released to fly quite frequently.*I treat them as atheletes. They get the best of everything I have to offer. Feed is the fuel to help them get the best they can offer. If they get too rich of feed, all they can do is spin the tires. Not rich enough and they got no umph. It is a fine line we tread as managers. Feed and exercise are the only controls we have over our birds once they hatch. You have to give a nice place to live so they will come back. I open the doors for a few hours every day for sunshine and fresh air. The box is well ventilated and fairly light due to the wire floor even with the door shut. I have the four perches in the box and I know each will hold six birds comfortably. Thes boxes are for flyers not breeders. I don`t want them breeding, I have a building and birds for that. These guys are the workhorses.



I'm not questioning their "freedom" or "lack there of"........ I'm questioning what is the purpose behind putting 25 birds in a "box" as opposed to a, say, 8 X 10 loft? I know that everyone that I see on web sites has this type of houseing for this type of bird. I just don't understand *why*.  Is it because you don't want them to fly AT ALL unless they are outside flying? If they were in a bigger space, would they try to tumble or roll inside the loft and get injured? Just trying to understand. 
I just realized something else...........there is no trap. Do they not use a trap. Just come out and fly and go back and get on the perch?


----------



## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Lovebirds,
Compare it to figure skaters. Most of them are lithe graceful atheletes. They keep their bodies in shape for skating. Take a 300 pound defensive end strap a pair of skates on him and he would be a lot of fun to watch. On the football field he is a monster on skates a putz.
They are kept in too keep from getting too strong on the wing. If they get too strong they can resist the urge to roll and fly thru it. If they do that whats the point of having rollers. 

Anything else I can help you with?


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

velo99 said:


> Lovebirds,
> Compare it to figure skaters. Most of them are lithe graceful atheletes. They keep their bodies in shape for skating. Take a 300 pound defensive end strap a pair of skates on him and he would be a lot of fun to watch. On the football field he is a monster on skates a putz.
> They are kept in too keep from getting too strong on the wing. If they get too strong they can resist the urge to roll and fly thru it. If they do that whats the point of having rollers.
> 
> Anything else I can help you with?


Nope. I was just curious. We knew a guy a couple of years ago that had rollers and we were at his house once and watched them. Pretty cool. I couldn't have them here because of all the trees. I wouldn't be able to watch them fly and roll, so guess I'll stick to my racers. Thanks for the info.


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Velo, 
Just a hypothetical. If a roller gets lost and can't get back to an owner, could that bird be able to fly like a regular pigeon if he got "strong" enough or whatever. You said if they are too strong on the wing they will resist the roll. What I'm trying to understand that if they manage to get into a flock of regular pigeons, will they be able to have the same chance of survival against the predators as your average run-of-the-mill pigeon especially if their feather patterns are pretty much the same as the rest of the flock.
Just wondering . . . 



(BTW -- love Wendy, your helper   )


----------



## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Flitz,
If they hooked up with another group of birds they would be okay in theory. If their size didn`t get em bounced around. 

Had one get out three years ago. Was eating from one of the neighbors birdfeeders. I never could catch her. She did fly with a ew commies in this area. I saw her less and less as time went by til she disappeared. 

If not kept in performing condition the roll will deteriorate til it is nonexistent.
They do have the same color patterns and more.

The helpers name is Pearl.


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Thanks for the info. It's so nice to have experts here that can answer my off-the-wall questions.

It's also good to know that they don't automatically become someone's lunch if they get hooked up with other birds. 

Lovely name, Pearl. She reminded me of Bob the Builder's friend, Wendy (you can tell I've spent wayyy too much time watching children's videos  ).


----------



## Bud109 (May 19, 2007)

What do you think of housing different breed together? For example; we have 4 rollers, 4 turkish tumblers, 1 feral, and 1 homer (the feral and homer are about a month old). 
also from what i read here does that mean that because our loft that is pritty big is not an ideal place to keep the rollers that we want to preform? and what about just the breeders. right now we only have the 4 rollers but how do we know what once are the onces that will fly good. though they were all flowen befor i got them.
so pritty much im just trying to find out how to do this right all the help i can get would be very helpful and i would be very greatful.


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

velo99 said:


> Becca
> The tumblers and rollers should be housed seperately from the doves. They will beat them up.





velo99 said:


> Flitz,
> If they hooked up with another group of birds they would be okay in theory.


So.. If these birds got lost they could join another flock of birds and not get beaten up... but if I were to put a pair in with a flock of Doves they would get beaten up???  
Is that right or have I just misunderstood?


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

By The Way-
The man came for 6 of the birds but decided on only taking 4 because his dovecote could only house 4 birds and he insited to put one per room despite what we told him that the birds were mating pairs and to put one pair in one room. Also he seems to have his mind set on only keeping the birds in for 2-3 days and not expecting them to fly away we told him 4-6 weeks but I am unsure to weather he will take our advice.

However... we waited 2 hours for the man to bring the tumbler and fantails. He did not turn up! We were so dissapointed and did not have a contact number for him.
I know that he keeps his birds in boxes like that I was quite shoked when he told me that a passed him off as being cruel until I found out they only are in this room whilst sleeping!

I am hoping to get his number of a neighbour and see about the birds coming tomorrow. You never know- somenthing could have come up.


----------



## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Becca,
You can do what you would like,these are merely my suggestions and how I run my operation. I meant to state that earlier.

I have heard from various sources it is better to house the doves and pigeons seperately due to the territoriality of the cockbirds.
"If their size didn`t get em bounced around." I pulled this from my other post referring to lost rollers.
g/l


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Oh ok thanks.
I have found a breeder selling fantail doves near me!
Will ring him and see about getting a few.
When we were collecting the 2 pairs for the man we were selling them to- it turned out that one had laid one egg and another had laid one egg so once I got the birds out I took the eggs and put them into another birds nest and it was amazing! I didn't expect them to sit onto the eggs right away. I don't think anything will come of them as one was cold but better to not be sorry. The other was warm but the bird was not sitting on it. The man might find himself with 4 doves and a egg when he gets home. That would be a good start!


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

I have yet another question..
When/If we were to let other birds foster the eggs can we give them to-
A single bird- Adult hen or Adult cock?
A younger couple who are old enough but just havent yet laid their own egg would they know what to do with it?


----------



## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

"Moving the eggs is a common practice called fostering. It allows one to raise more babies from the best performers. It`s best to foster two rounds and let the "breeders" raise the third round. _The eggs should be laid with in three days of each other. Preferably the breeder eggs first. To get them in time lock all of the breeders and fosters down in a box each,at the same time. _When all the pairs have laid discard the eggs.They should all lay again within ten days. Foster the breeder pair and discard the leftover eggs. Keep this cycle up and use the best two or three pairs you have and the birds will get better every year."
You have to have actively breeding pairs.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Everything I've read about training rollers lines up with what velo99 says, such as keeping them in kit boxes, etc. We have rollers but quickly gave up on flying them because we have big trees in our yard and could hardly see them fly and there are too many hawks around. Now I show them and use them for fostering our other show breeds. I never saw mine roll (though I've seen some of my young birds do some flips in the loft) but I don't know if it was because they weren't good rollers or because I didn't train and house them properly (truth is, they are spoiled rotten). We only tried flying them for one season five years ago and they weren't properly housed or trained, as I understand it now.

In spite of all this I like my rollers best, even more than the exotic breeds we have, because I love their wide variety of colors and patterns, nice size and temperament, and good parenting skills. I just enjoy having them around and they earn their keep by fostering.


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Thankyou- I know how this fostering works but i'm wondering if I can give eggs to single males and single females or a young pair who are old enough to lay but haven't yet???


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

No. You need to give foster eggs to adult pairs. They can foster if they're young, but the hen should at least be at the point where she's laying. In an emergency I once had a pair of five-month-old rollers foster a set of homer eggs and they raised the babies just fine. But they were a real pair and the hen had laid her first set of eggs (replaced with dummy eggs). 

Also, the foster pair and the eggs to be fostered must have been laid within a couple days of each other or it won't work. If the eggs hatch too early for the foster pair, the parents won't have enough crop milk and the chicks will die. If the eggs hatch too late, the fosters may give up on incubating them before the chicks hatch. Timing is everything.


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Oh right! I didn't realise this and thought it was just a case of taking the eggs and putting them under another bird. I have put two eggs under a pair of adult birds as the birds who the eggs belonged to were being took away that day they had just been laid on the morning and their first set of eggs it was a shame to let them go.  

We are on longer going to get the rolers as we cant find a breeder who will sell us only white ones because we only have white birds and don't want the rolers to breed with the doves and spoil the colors. We are just going to settle for 2 pairs of white fantails. We have found a few breeders but they havent yet replied to our e-mails.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Fantails are nice and gentle as well as lovely to look at and I'm sure you'll enjoy them. We have some American fantails but everyone's favorite is our little pure white garden or common fantail. He's one of the friendliest pigeons we have. 

It's too bad you're in the U.K.--otherwise I'd be happy to provide you with some lovely rollers.  I specialize in yellow baldheads.


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Good news!!!
I just got a call from my grandad and he has found a breeder and bought us 2 pairs of fantails all white!
The breeder said that they were molting which I didn't no birds did but hey you learn something new every day! 
He said he had took out all his birds tail feathers so they would grow back nicer and so the birds are currently unnable to fly!
This means that they will be easy to catch and then i train them alot easier since they wont be able to fly away!
I'm off to take a look at them now if I can find my camera I will take some photos.


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Oh sorry I was mistaken before the breeder have removed the birds wing feathers not the tail feathers.
There was two young totally white hens one of which was happy for me to stroke its tummy but did not like to be held the other was quite ferocious and pecked at my hand it may have been a little scared as it was only young and I suppose it would be daunting having a big hand come towards you like that or is could have been looking for food as it hasn't been fed because we aren't feeding them for a few days so they will be happy to come back when we let them out on saturday. There were two male birds, these were the ones unable to fly but they looked amazing! One had a all white body but had a perfect pattern of black-white-black-white running through it's tail feathers.

On saturday we have decided to let the two out who can't fly and put them on the roof of the aivary then one at a time let the others out and we are hoping they will see the birds on top feeding and will fly back inside.
My camera unfortunatly did not have any battery but I will take some photos tomorrow.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Becca,

You will have to keep a very close eye on the birds that can't fly if you do put them outside on the aviary. They will be very vulnerable to predators.

Terry


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I hope you don't have any predators around.  Fantails are sitting ducks for hawks even when fully feathered. I would never free-fly a fantail around here.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Looks like Terry and I were typing at the same time!


----------



## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Oh yes I wouldn't leave then alone there seems to be about 20 cats stalking the streets but non have yet seemed to realise the birds are there yet but i'm sure they would spot them if they were wondering around also there is bound to be foxes in the nature reserve.

We were just talking and would yous reccomend we removed all the birds wing feather and let them out-with us watching them of course- each day to wonder around their new garden just to let them get used to their sorroundings as it's going ot be tricky letting all the birds but the two we got today out. 
We thought it would be alot easier and they will have a bit more freedom than being cooped up in the aivary each day for the next 3 weeks. 
If this would be reccomended would someone please help us with what feathers to pull put or do you cut them? Do you take all them out?


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Becca199212 said:


> We were just talking and would yous reccomend we removed all the birds wing feather and let them out-with us watching them of course- each day to wonder around their new garden just to let them get used to their sorroundings as it's going ot be tricky letting all the birds but the two we got today out.
> We thought it would be alot easier and they will have a bit more freedom than being cooped up in the aivary each day for the next 3 weeks.
> If this would be reccomended would someone please help us with what feathers to pull put or do you cut them? Do you take all them out?


Ouch!! I don't think you should pull feathers unless you absolutely have to. If you decide to clip the wings, get expert advice here first and do not clip just one side. It leads to very unbalanced flying and if these birds aren't capable fliers in the first place that will cause even more problems. Do not clip feathers growing in (blood feathers) as they will continue to ooze blood.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Ouch is right! Pulling wing feathers is very painful for birds and shouldn't be done unless there's a very good reason. I can't see that your pigeons need to get used to your yard while loose. They look lovely roaming around the yard, but keeping fantails uncaged is extremely dangerous and shouldn't be a regular practice. Even with you right there, cats and hawks are very fast and disaster can strike before you have time to react. Please provide a safe place for your pigeons to enjoy your garden--behind welded wire. Our loft has a wire-enclosed landing board and sunroom where the pigeons can enjoy sunbathing and fresh air without any risk from predators.


----------

