# Probiotics



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

Lately, a lot of emphasis has been placed on the need for “good bacteria” in the gut of pigeons. How important “good bacteria” are remains somewhat controversial. Most authorities, but not all, consider it beneficial.
There is even some controversy in the scientific community of Europe on whether pigeons have normal gut bacteria in the first place. One scientist thinks that pigeons have little or no normal gut bacteria. Others say they do, though they don’t have as many as poultry.
Pigeons do have normal population of “good bacteria” because they have digestive tracts similar to poultry. The types of normal bacteria can vary, but mainly the normal bacteria consists of lactobacillus. This is the same bacteria that produces yogurt – the live culture of it is in most yogurts.
There may be certain sub-strains of lactobacillus. Some of the manufacturers say there is specific pigeon lactobacillus. Others says lactobacillus is lactobacillus and there’s no differentiation. This is still in the air.
The whole theory behind “good” or normal bacteria is the fact that in poultry, and suspected in pigeons, there are certain sites in the intestine that bacteria can attach to, and only to certain sites. If these sites are occupied by normal bacteria, it protects against invasion by “disease causing” or “bad” bacteria. This is a simplification of what happens, but in theory, that’s it.
“Good bacteria” live on the intestinal contents. They are not the type of bacteria that invade and cause disease. Bad bacteria, on the other hand, are not content to just “feed at the trough”. They can actually enter the tissue and feed of tissue. Things like E. coli can just live in the intestine living on the intestinal contents; but it is classified as an opportunist organism and if there’s any disturbance, it can cause infection. They, then, actually invade and infect the bird.
Gut bacteria, then, do not help in the ability of the bird to process and digest its food. The only benefit that scientists determined is that since they occupy sites in the bird’s system which are the focal points for bacterial infections their mere presence means “this seat is taken”. They create a blocking effect.
At times, the normal available sites are not the main concern. If we have an erosion of the intestinal lining, because of an inflammatory process, there is an open door for invasion at other sites. In other words, there is a protective lining or membrane in the intestines which bacteria can’t penetrate. If this membrane is disturbed by anything, such as coccidiosis or adenovirus, then it “opens the door” for bacterial infections such as E. coli. This is what we call a secondary infection. Secondary infections mean that the original invader has made the lining permeable and, therefore more susceptible, to a bacterial infection.
So why all the concern about it? The concern is that when you give antibiotics, you not only kill bad bacteria, but you eliminate good or beneficial bacteria as well. The use of antibacterial medications such as Vetisulid, Baytril, Aureomycin, Terramycin and Tylan, or any of the other antibiotics or antibacterial agents, such as nitrofurozone and sulfa drugs, can eliminate all bacteria. If the good bacteria are gone, the bird is then temporarily more susceptible to infection then it was before antibiotics were administered, because you have lost the blocking effect. Repopulating the gut with normal bacteria is thus beneficial, following antibiotic therapy.
This is one of the reasons that veterinarians ask you to be cautious about treating routinely without indications of bacterial infections. Many people consider antibiotics as a preventative medicine, where in fact, they are not preventative medicine. They have no preventative effect. They can only treat and have no lasting effect once they are discontinued. What can happen is that you actually make the bird more susceptible to the infestation of the “bad” bacteria because the sites have been cleared of good bacteria.
So, in my opinion, and in the opinion of most people I know, is that there is benefit to be gained in repopulating the digestive system with beneficial bacteria as soon as reasonable after antibiotic therapy. It can be administered either via food or water, or in tablet form. Most lactobacillus products are adequate. These normal bacteria products are classified as probiotics, which function by the creating, or the enhancing of, the normal gut bacteria.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I have used several different kinds of probiotics, and find them very beneficial in rehab. They do decrease gut transit time and allow uptake of valuable nutrients, as well as increase immune response by stabilzing gut flora. 

I do not use antibiotics, only natural products, and have treated birds successfully with coccidiosis and such.

I use human grade for treatment, as I can give heavy doses intially, and bird grade for regular maintenance.

I also make a kefir that carries many different bacteria other then acidopholis. It is far better quality then yogurt, and I not only use it myself, but have used it occasianally on my pigeons. We are just seeing responses to this kefir that I have never seen before (in humans), relief of reuhmatoid arthritis pain, weight gain, eye infections clearing up, blood pressure going down to normal, and a whole lot more!

You can find more on probiotics if you do a search.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

First concept of probotic use Is to maintain health so you do not have to medictate the birds. A healthy bird gets less sickness. Slight acid in the system does not allow in bad bacteria. And the droppings harbor less . Birds confined to lofts or pens. Are exposed to there own element constint. So that being they need a boost to maintain health.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Strickly My Opinion...*

this thread brought to mind something that I have thought about many times: the tenedency for many to be over zealous in prescribing/taking too many antibiotics at the first sign of any illness, birds and humans.

I think humans can be very guilty of this, thinking that an antibiotic is a panacea for all their ills. Unfortunately, overmedicating can lead to resistence down the road. Personally, I feel that the "less is more" approach can be more helpful and "when in doubt, wait or don't." 

I know that starting a treatment FAST can determine a positive or negative outcome, but to me, that applies to those knowledgeable enough to KNOW what they are treating and what they are doing...


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Happy*

to see everybody enjoyed the report. I guess I was not the only one transfering imformation. My friend Frank was doing it too! I beleive it is ok so long as we all learn something and have a fun time talking about the topic.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Here are some natural antibiotics that work well, and do not disrupt the good gut bacteria at all.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12627


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Probotics,
I'm not sure that the new Fad on Probotics means much, even though I've been using them for the last yr. & see no improvement in Racing or looks. I ask all of you if you have ever been prescribed Probotic's from a Doctor on ourselfs after they have given us Humans Antibiotics? I "never" have for me or any of my family or friends!!! I'm not saying there's nothing to this, just wonder.... I think we should remember that ANYONE can write ANYTHING on the internet & so many Quote these as fact.. ???? Happy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Happy said:


> Probotics,
> I ask all of you if you have ever been prescribed Probotic's from a Doctor on ourselfs after they have given us Humans Antibiotics? I "never" have for me or any of my family or friends!!! Happy


This is true, and I've never been told to take probiotics after antibiotics by a doctor. I think maybe the reasons they don't is because either 1) it's not really accepted as beneficial in the medical profession yet. They do tend to stick to practicing "medicine" as such rather than natural things and 2) people consume things such as milk, cheese, yoghurt and other things naturally in their diet which would re-populate the bacterial flora anyway.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Happy said:


> Probotics,
> I'm not sure that the new Fad on Probotics means much, even though I've been using them for the last yr. & see no improvement in Racing or looks. I ask all of you if you have ever been prescribed Probotic's from a Doctor on ourselfs after they have given us Humans Antibiotics? I "never" have for me or any of my family or friends!!!


*I have never seen results on my healthy birds, other then weight gain. but I see very positive results in young birds, as well as birds that are sick. But I only have had to treat for secondary infections, that came out due to hens that were egg bound.

I myself, have never been prescribed pro-biotics, but my doctor knows I eat home made kefir, and tells me to keep doing what I am doing. Other people I know are seing tremendous response from the kefir.

My 4 nieces and nephews, however have. Their pediatrician , first of all, tries NOT to prescribe them, only when necessary because the body grows immune to them, and their side effects. Second, when they are prescribed to them, he tells them to eat yogurt.

Eating kefir for good gut flora, is not a fad, nor is taking probiotics. It has been done for 100's of years with positive immune health results.*


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Anytime I have to take antibiotics which can cause "thrush" in a human's mouth, I have been told by both my doctor and pharmacist to eat a lot of yogurt. 

I believe I mentioned sometime back that, when we first had coccidiosis in our aviary, we treated the birds with Amprol. This was about five years ago and at that time the vet didn't really have anything to treat everyone by water. I checked with Southern States and was lucky enough to have a lady help me who had raised pigeons. She recommended the Amprol plus a probiotic. I mentioned this to my vet who told me to treat with the Amprol but leave off the probiotic because she had read some literature that said some of the ingredients were thought to be "species specific" and thus may not be right for pigeons. Last fall, I brought this up again and she said to go ahead and give the probiotics because nothing ever came up again about the "species specific" problem. She has always recommended Benebac which is a type of probiotic though I don't know exactly what the difference is between it and a regular probiotic product.

Re antibiotics in general. I am a rehabber who firmly believes in the "bullet" approach of treating most fledglings/juveniles we get in. There are some exceptions where we don't do this if the bird is obviously healthy, but most of the time they are not. However, I know, absolutely, that we have been able to save many more young pigeons through this approach. When we get a young pigeon in that we are doubtful about, it is routinely treated with Bactrim, Nystatin, Metronidazole and a wormer. We are very careful in doing this. I only give Baytril with my vet's authorization, although we keep it on hand at all times. After this initial care, they only get antibiotics after I take them to the vet.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Happy said:


> Probotics,
> .....I ask all of you if you have ever been prescribed Probotic's from a Doctor on ourselfs after they have given us Humans Antibiotics? .... Happy


Hi Happy,

In fact, my doctors _have_ been prescribing/recommending the use of probiotics when taking antibiotics for at least twenty years now. And this would be a full range of doctors of different 'persuasion', a range from homeopathic to just your plain old HMO somewhat conservative doctors. Granted, I live in California, but my sister's docs in Massachusetts have recomended the same to her. I think that doctor's tend to be conservative in their recommendations for good reason. But I think that in the future this will become more mainstream as the research on it has been going on for quite some time. There is usually a lagtime in what does become SOP and the research that supports it. Interestingly, I remember when my mother used to clip articles from papers on how the health food industry was a 'Sham' and save them for me to read. Then, before my eyes, she and Dad would take their jaunts to the health food store for supplies  . Some things take time.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think it depends on the doctor. Mine, for instance, even seems to hate chiropractors and he's never said a single word about probiotics, even when he's prescribed antibiotics. Maybe it's not all antibiotics that bother or even reach the large intestine and he's never prescribed one that would be antagonistic. 

I've only taken one antibiotic that had any noticeable effect on my stomach and they've reformulated that one since to not be so harsh. In that one, the cure seemed worse than the disease. It was for a very persistent bronchial infection over three months that didn't respond to anything else whatsoever. The med whipped it (and me) in about six of the ten days it was prescribed for (yes, I religiously finished the prescription).

That was a different doctor and he didn't mention probiotics or yogurt either although I eat it almost every day anyway.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*The cure seems worse then the disease

* That is my belief. I will do without and suffer the pain if I have too. I had a sinus infection the last time I went for my annual check-up, it lingered and lingered and I couldn't shake it. The doctor prescribed an antibiotic, which he doesn't do unless necessary. He knows how I feel about drugs, so I wasn't thrilled...

Just about that time I got my Alli-supreme and Reishi and took one of each with each meal and I finally got rid of it the next day. Yeah!


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Sharing my techniques here...I use two kinds of probiotics. One is made by the Australian Pigeon cmpany. The other is made by another pigeon.

Unlike the commercial product, you can make a poop sandwhich from bird poop by taking some of it and diluting it in some water, sucking 1cc of the green water through a syringe and squirting it into the birds mouth. POSSITIVILY DISGUSTING, but VERY effective. The best part is it can be done during antibiotic treatments. 

Many will find issues with possibly introducing disease or worms. Use the best poop you can find. Since eggs/ worms will take more than a 10 day stretch to start major damage, worm the bird when it becaomes stable or eating on it's own. Otherwise things like trchamonads will not go into play as it dies with im moments after leaving the bird, and coccidia, the bird will be allowed to buid a healthy immune system to it. 

Many times you will see good acron type poop within 24 hours. the best part...you only have to do it once=)

yong

PS. When fledlings start to learn how to peck up food, they often pick up and eat their own poop. They must know something we don't which is why we keep making stuff and making it harder on ourselves than what it needs to be.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You consider a dose for pigeons is much smaller. Larger med doses can kill off gut bacteria more. Taking the bird out of balance. Now with the use of probotics Then you probably can see results AS less sick birds. They have a balanced system So they are less likely to get sick. Far as benifits to flyers race birds. They have to also be bred right to perform. With out good breeding they can not be espected to perform better from treatments. But yes they should be healthyer. But training methods breeding methods You see the improved results there. People over med there birds often when they do not need to do so. But think they need it. Birds get sick just from that. I raised pigeons for many years never took a single bird to a vet. learned from others over the years on deseases that effect pigeons. Treated just as need. Never had a pmv bird either. Been lucky i guess. But managed the birds the best I could. And was lucky enough to learn from What I believe was some good pigeon keepers of the time. One thing stands out healthy birds stay healthyer. Thats loft management. Pigeons adapt to there loft. Outside birds must be watched. And then less meds. And overcrowding is big culprit Thats the same I see on the bird flu posts of picture. Poultry crowed together. ! bird gets sick boom the bunch gets it. So if a probotic use gives you healthy birds that do not get sick. Then something is getting done right. After all when caged they need a little more boost. As wild birds have natures ways. Caged birds have only man to make sure the are taken care of.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yong said:


> Unlike the commercial product, you can make a poop sandwhich from bird poop by taking some of it and diluting it in some water, sucking 1cc of the green water through a syringe and squirting it into the birds mouth. POSSITIVILY DISGUSTING, but VERY effective.


Yumm, that sounds absolutely savory... !

Actually, some of the experiments that have been done on humans that are undergoing a course of antibiotics include rectally introducing human feces for probiotics. Of course, Yong, your technique might find objection in the same human control group  ....

fp


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Yuh! I'll pass=) yong


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