# Feathers Falling Out



## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Hi all,
I wanted to reach out to all of you again. It is regarding the same pigeon many of you responded to weeks ago; pigeon with beak stuck open.

His beak is still stuck open. He is losing all of his new feathers. These feathers are numerous and small, about .25"-.375". They are falling out with the sheathe. 

He is currently being hand fed and has a full range of vitamins and minerals. Also he is currently on a micro flora product and Nystatin.

Of course the first suggestion would be that he is pulling them out. He can't, his poor little beak is stuck open.

I mention this as a symptom hoping that some one can possibly connect the feathers falling out with the open beak problem.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He probably is moulting right now, so that will pass and he will grow new feathers. 
Now with his beak problem he won't be able to preen properly but should be ok. I have had birds who couldn't preen and they were fine, their featrhers might not look great but that's ok.

Reti


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This doesn't sound like a normal moult -- sounds like these are pinfeathers falling out (unless I am misunderstanding your post). 

I can't remember -- have you treated for parasites? Some mites cause feather loss, and can even burrow into body tissues and can cause beak deformities. Treatment with something like Moxidectin might be in order, as well as some pyrethrin spray. 

One other thought is that you might be dealing with circovirus (it's similar to the beak and feather disease that psittiacines get ) -- that can cause beak and feather problems in pigeons too, though it tends to present a bit differently in pigeons than in parrots. It can cause the beak to rot away, and can cause extensive feather loss too. It can definitely cause beak deformities. 

I honestly don't know -- circovirus is really nasty (Pirab Buk has a pigeon who has it) -- I hope that isn't the problem. 

There's also still the possibility of something fungal going on, which can cause beak and feather problems, particularly if it is systemic. 

I think I'd try mite treatment first, if you haven't already -- mites can cause a lot of problems and can be hard to eradicate.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

*Beak Stuck Open-pin Feathers Falling Out*

Yes indeed. These are pin feathers. Niot at all a normal moulting. The feathers are not older feathers falling out, but rather the fresh, new pin feathers at about 1/4" long. It is molting season for my other birds, thus moulting is to be expected, but this is hundreds of small feathers with the sheathe and as minimonkey noted called "pin Feathers"
He has had two courses of Ivermectin. No endo or ecto parisites. I will look further into the possibility of circovirus. That would be a first for me.

To refresh any new comments on this little soul:
Beak stuck open, prolapsed vent, foul smell (mouth and poopies) hand fed(can't eat), 10 day course of baytril and copper sulfate followed up by a 10 day course of 4-in-1( definitely had canker), worm out, Ivermectin, and currently hand fed with vitamin, minerals, micro flora product, and nystatin.
He is extremely strong fighter, except for the new feathers falling out he has had good feather appearance, clear vent, clear mouth.
Thanx all


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

AHA! I think I may know the problem with the feathers -- 

I looked up the ingredients in Wormout -- assuming this is the product by Vetafarm, it contains Oxfendazole, which is a sulfoxide form of fenbendazole. All the drugs in this class of wormers (the benzimidazoles) are known for causing feather problems during or near molting. 

They're also quite toxic to pigeons, though they are still manufactured for pigeon use, and a lot of vets still prescribe them for pigeons. They're apparently safe for most birds, but toxic to pigeons for some reason (I assume to doves, as well.) There have been a few pigeon fatalites on this board associated with benzimidazoles.

I can't say for sure that the feather loss is from the wormer, but it seems likely. 

I'll see if I can find any further info on this. 

A very safe and very broad spectrum wormer for pigeons is Moxidectin Plus -- it gets everything, including tape worms, and has a wide safety margin and no known toxicity for pigeons.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I found several references to "feather abnormalities" and "stunted feathers" from fenbendazole used near or during a molt. I understand that to be true of this entire class of wormers. 

Circovirus can attack the feather follicles, and so can some fungi -- 

I'll let you know if I think of anything else, or stumble on any more information that might be useful to you.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

*Pin Feathers Falling Out*

Thanx for the input. 
I moved the bird to a smaller hospital cage, I noticed yesterday he has been sitting down; wouldn't perch. Put him on a heating pad. Seems that there were fewer feathers falling out over the last 24hr, but not the number or volume from the previous 4 days. Beak still wide open.
It is possibly that the wormout is responsible, but not sure it would have this kind of effect 5 weeks after last dose. Still possible though. Regardless, you are not the first person to mention that to me and I will look into the Moxidectin Plus. I do remember seeing that particular product on Foyes web site. 
I do appreciate your response. I was hoping this thread might allow someone to correlate the feather loss and open beak with a possible condition.
Obviously the proper care would involve taking the bird to a vet. That has not worked well for me as the one avian vet specialist on the Island tends to see the recovery of a sick or injured pigeon as an interference in nature. Also, I get between three and four very Ill pigeons/doves a month and though we do get a few donations, there is no way to cover vet charges for a vet that's not pleased with the circumstances of caring for wild pigeons.

Just simply doing the best I can


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You may be right about the wormer -- that seems a while back for a reaction now. In some ways, that would be the best possible option .. that usually corrects itself after the next molt.

It sounds like you are doing a great job with your birds -- and I totally understand your position. I couldn't bring in rehabs, either, if I had to take them all to a vet. I also do the best I can, and learn as much as I can in the process.

Sorry to hear the pigeon is seeming to take a turn for the worse -- I'm kind of inclined to suspect circovirus, based on what little we have to go on. In psittacines, it is known as beak and feather disease, because those are the two areas where it presents itself most. It causes extensive loss of new feathers in psittacines, to the point that the poor things sometimes go completely bald. It also causes beak deformities -- scissoring, rotting away of the beak, etc. 

There's not a whole lot written about it in pigeons -- generally it shows up as a severely compromised immune system and succeptibility to a host of opportunistic infections -- bacterial, fungal, canker, etc. I have read a few accounts of feather loss, though, and also of rotting beaks (and sometimes toenails.) It seems quite possible that some sort of nerve or muscular damage to the beak would be a real possibility with it. 

I wish I had more answers for you --


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

*Feather Loss-Beak Stuck Open*

Circo is a possibility. It's not something that any of us locally have experience with. After one of your earlier responses suggesting circo I did some research and it is entirely possible. 
I will update with any changes
BTW, You must not get much sleep. I'm guessing you are 3 hours ahead of me.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah ... I'm a bit of an insomniac at times. 

I hope it isn't circo -- that's one nasty disease. 

I think, if it were my rescue, I might be inclined to treat for fungi, and see if that got me anywhere... Aspergillus can do tissue damage, and even Candida Albicans can become systemic if there is an immune issue present. It can show up in organs, and definitely in the skin. 

If you have access to a systemic antifungal, it might be worth trying that (even if it is circo, the likelikhood of an opportunistic fungal infection is fairly high). Diflucan and Itraconazole are both pretty safe for pigeons ... as is Lamisil. They aren't readily available, however, without a prescription. 

Ketoconazole is much easier to get (it's available for dogs or fish without a prescription, and it is also available dosed for pigeons.) Ketoconazole doesn't have as wide a safety margin as the others, however. 

Here's a link to the pigeon product:

http://www.pigeonsproducts.com/ketoconazole-tablets-by-dac-569

Please do keep us updated -- I hope your little friend starts getting better.

I have Ketoconazole (for pigeons) on hand, so if you decide to go this route and want me to send you some, I'd be happy to do that. Just send me a PM with your info if you'd like me to send it.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Thanx for the Ketoconazole offer. You are more than Kind. I will order some, I like to keep a well stocked medicine cabinet. I do have nystatin, but have never needed any other type of anti fungicide. 
Thanx for the heads up.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Best of luck with this! I do the same, in terms of keeping different meds on hand. Sometimes it is a real life-saver, when something unexpected shows up. 

Keep us updated, please -- I'm wishing the best for you and your bird.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Yes, being well stocked in case something unexpected shows up is a life saver. 

I'm caught of guard this evening. There was a pigeon under my front steps when I came home this evening. He gave a little hoot as I was walking up. Cornered the bird, easily caught him. Very weak, runny droppings, swollen toes, lesions on wings. Pretty sure it's paratyphiod. I have a question for you and your forum mates: Have you ever treated paratyphoid with anything other than Baytril? I used the last of my bayltril on the little soul with "stuck open beak". I have every other type of antibiotic available, but I have never used anything other than Baytril for paratyphoid and I have never heard any pigeon fancier use any thing but baytril. I did do some research, trimethroprin/sulfa did show up in a few web pages, but I wanted to get some feed back.

Now, minimonkey, go get some sleep!


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

John, please check and compare your bird's symptoms with 
Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease. 
http://www.petplace.com/birds/psittacine-beak-and-feather-disease/page1.aspx


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## joyful (Apr 1, 2009)

JOhn, can you share a picture on feathers that have fallen out? or the bird himself?
is there a previous post?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, the new one sounds like paratyphoid to me, through and through. 

Do you happen to have Keflex (Cephalexin) ? It's very effective against paratyphoid -- I used it successfully for a case that was resistant to Baytril. If you don't have it on hand, it is sold for aquarium use as Fish Flex - many aquarium stores around here stock it. 

Amoxicillin is often listed as a second option after Baytril for treatment. 

I've also heard that trimethroprin/sulfa has some action against paratyphoid as well, though I've never tried either of these. 

Since I know Baytril is a bit hard to find, I'll throw this in, too --

Siegel's has the generic form of Baytril in stock, as Enroflaxyn:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

*Feather loss-Beak stuck open*

Hi Joyful, thanx for your input

A suggestion from MiniMonkey prompted me to research Beak and Feather(PBFD) exhaustively. My web searches were done on "circovirus" initially. Upon reading your provided link on Beak&Feather I noticed that I had actually visited that site once. 
The symptoms are not an exact match. If I was to make a judgment call I would say yes, it is a match because nothing else has worked.

All my rehab'r associates locally have never had experience in CircoVirus. Not that it doesn't exist, it seems relatively rare here.

I will indeed provide some pictures of the bird and the feathers. 
Yes this was covered in a different thread. 
Should I have presented the new and different symptoms in the original thread? 
Still learning the proper approach in using this forum.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

A new problem often warrants a new thread -- but sometimes it is good to link to the old one so people can reference it -- just a copy and paste of the url will serve as a link.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Salmonella Tab, by Pantex, is in the same family of medications as baytril and is very affordable. I always have it on hand.

http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?products_id=87


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

*Feather Loss-Beak Stuck Open*

Thanx for the Med referrals. Getting baytril has been difficult and I had no Idea it was available as generic and with out a prescription. 
I will follow up and update
Tahnx again MiniMonkey,Joyful, and Charis


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

Oh no, I just noticed I'm growing up too fast. I'm no longer a "squab", I'm a fledgling now!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

LOL... squabs grow up too fast, always.  Good luck with the meds.


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