# Mystery Swelling On Neck.



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I got called to pick up an injured pigeon today that a friend found grounded in his garden two days ago.

He's kept it in his shed for the last couple of days thinking it was just tired and hungry, but today he noticed the feathers were standing out on one side of it's neck.

I'm assuming the swelling has developed since he found the bird as he hadn't noticed it initially, but can't be sure.
It's a very large lump and the skin is quite red around the swollen area.
I brought it home and have bathed it to try and see what's underneath the feathers.
I can't find a puncture wound or actual broken skin, but it's very red and there are some feathers missing.

I think it's more likely and injury as I think it was possibly racing, so again assume it must have been healthy when it was let out.

Any ideas what can have caused this and what I should do to help please?


















Thanks

Janet


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Is it possible that this is insect byte?
Tea tree oil may be used topically to reduce swelling and irritation.
I would also check for canker.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Is he eating and drinking ok? How is his weight and how are the poops?
I first thought of canker, but with that size of canker I would think he would be much sicker and this pigeon looks quite good.
So, I guess it is an abscess. Start him on Baytril and Flagyl see how it goes. If it is an abscess, those are hard to treat at that size, it might have to be removed surgically at some point. A puncture wound which is not visible anymore could have caused this.
Is the lump hard, is it mobile against the surrounding tissues? Does it feel hot to the touch?

Reti


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Looks like canker. Have you looked way down in its throat? Although you can't always see it that way.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I had just thought about a bite funnily enough after I'd posted. I'll bathe it just in case.

It's throat doesn't show any signs of canker, is nice and pink.

The only reason I hadn't thought of it being canker was because it's a 09 banded bird with what I think is a race band on aswell as it's own band. So I'm guessing it hasn't been away from home long enough for a lump this size to have developed if it was canker. Obviously I don't know I am guessing it's background. I will have to try and find it's owner tomorrow, but didn't want to leave it untreated if there is something I can do.

Janet


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Janet...I don't know if it is or isn't canker but a bird can have canker without canker being visible in the mouth or throat. For years I thought that was the way to check for canker too and was astounded to learn that canker can present in different ways.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wouldn't hurt to treat it for canker, just in case.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I think the use and recommendation of tea tree oil needs to be seriously reevaluated. I for one, especially after the thread below, don't feel it is safe on birds.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/sick-white-wing-dove-40459.html

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry Reti, just saw your post, I'll just go and check it over and come back again,

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I just checked it over again.

It weighs 425gms. Lots of small but well formed poops, slightly green but not bad.

The lump is firm, quite hard and warm to the touch. I not sure but I'd say it's not mobile, I can't get my fingers under it if that's any help in describing it.

As far dwon the throat as I can see I can't see canker.

I only picked him up after it was dark and the lighting isn't good in the room where he is, so I maybe able to see more tomorrow.

Janet


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

amyable said:


> I just checked it over again.
> 
> It weighs 425gms. Lots of small but well formed poops, slightly green but not bad.
> 
> ...


Hi Janet,
Being warm to the touch would indicate a possible infection.

Do you see even the smallest pinpoint hole indicating it might have gotten stung or pricked with something?

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

What antibiotics do you have? 

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry folks, I'm having to dip in and out a bit as I've got visitors.

Right have found the possible problem.
I went through the feathers again to check and a lot of small feathers came away where it was most swollen.
I can see about three tiny pin pricks. Not massive punctures. So assume will need to start anti-biotics?

I've got Baytril and Synulox.

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Have you got enough of both? Personally I would go for Synulox on the basis of "puncture wound" and possible anaerobic bacteria...if it is the right antibiotic you should notice an effect very quickly.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Yes I reckon I have enough of Noroclav if I use a couple of Synulox I have left over from another dose.

Thanks for all your input on this, sorry I didn't spot the pin pricks before. 

Janet


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good luck with him. Let us know how he does.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Injury is totally different today. Looks like one wound now and the skin around the area is more yellowy now. It showed nothing of this last night.

Have started it on Synulox.










Janet


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

It may be that the same wound has caused the infection and subsequently the swelling. Personally I never recommend antibiotics, neither to humans nor to animals, unless its the extreme case. Do you have a vet near by so that you can pay a visit ?


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I would use topical ointment on the skin too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Must be a pretty large pocket of inflammatory debris in there that will eventually be forced out by the body. That is to say that if the bird makes it, a rather large ball of yellow gunk will have to come out the side, or be broken up and carried through the GI and out. The way it's going, it'll probably come out the side of the neck. Hopefully, the poops have actual solids in them. Picture?

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, sorry my camera battery died so just had to recharge to get poops picture.

He wasn't keen on eating much to day but has just started to try a new mix I put in. So poops maybe small due to lack of feeding earlier maybe.










The lump is larger I'd say at the moment, also the wound site isn't an open hole more like a black scab, don't know what's underneath yet. Have bathed it and put some Hypercal cream on.

Janet

ps. I'm afraid I'm out all evening so excuse me if I don't respond to a post until much later if there is anything else I need to add.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If possible, it might be a real good idea for a vet to express that thing before it gets big enough to start choking off air and blood. Hopefully, antibiotics will arrest the development, but sometimes they don't for a variety of reasons. Good luck!

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Get her also some Baytril or Cipro if you can. Seems more like a bad infection rather than canker.
A vet is a good idea, he might just take the whole abscess out.

Reti


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi folks, Cynthia gave me a shout on this one.
That looks like an abcess caused by a small injury. Sometimes just a scratch from a seed husk will do this sort of damage. You need to let it heal from inside out. Reti is right, Baytril (10-20mgs per kg) or synulox (50mg per ml suspension with a dose of 100 - 250mg/kg) would do, synulox would possibly be better depending on type of invasive bacteria, and metronidazole would be great for a topical antibiotic. No dosage required, use as much as is necessary. Pull out as much gunk as you can and fill hole with metro twice a day. Proflavine might be even better for that job if you can get any. Salt water if no topical antibiotic available. Hope this helps. Abcesses are easily treated and pigeons tend to do very well. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Nooti... haven't seen you in awhile! Nice to see you dropping by, hope all's well with you! Hope you had a Merry Christmas and y'all be sure and have a Happy New Year, as well.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, Nooti... haven't seen you in awhile! Nice to see you dropping by, hope all's well with you! Hope you had a Merry Christmas and y'all be sure and have a Happy New Year, as well.
> 
> Pidgey


WOW!! HI NOOTI! 

I agree with Pidgey...BEEN Awhile!! 

How ARE you? How is married life? What are you doing these days??

Have time to give us a guick update?? 

Love and Hugs
Shi/Mr. Squeaks/Dom/Gimie/WoeBeGone


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Well I have Baytril and Synulox. I have already started her on Synulox but not a high enough dose by the looks of it. Have only given 25mgs twice today. Will go and pop her another 25mgs now.
Should I be giving Baytril aswell?

There still isn't an actual hole showing but the wound site is getting larger and darker. It's hard in the centre, possibly a scab, should I try and remove this or leave it to see if it opens itself up with bathing?

Don't know if my dog's vet is right for this but I may just have to ask him to take a look.
Not sure how far I should be going with a banded bird as I haven't found the owner yet, but can't leave it suffering like this.

Will report back tomorrow.

Thanks for the help so far,

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A scab? Are you referring to the center of that thing that looks like a volcano caldera in the picture above? That'd certainly be the place to start. It's looking like it's going to expand at that point and come out anyhow in time. What makes you think he's suffering? Is he panting or open-beaked breathing?

Pidgey


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Janet
You can use Baytril and synulox simultaeously as there are no contraindications. The scab is the head of the abcess. If you gently pick at this you will likely open it up and then it can be drained. Saline is the best thing to flush the infection out of the hole with but salt water is a good second.
For everyone else, sorry I have not been around much. Life gets busier the older you get. I spend a lot of time working and since I work more than an hour's drive from home it takes up most of my day. I worked over christmas too but get a week off at New Year so looking forward to that.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Nooti!  

Janet finds some strange injuries.

She has the 50 mg Synulox tablet and the pigeon weighs 425 gm...is 25mg TID OK or can she go higher?

Janet, did I send you the remnants of a baggie of metronidazole? That is ideal for a topical application. 

Pidgey, I love your description of the wound as a "volcano caldera"!  That is so apt.



> What makes you think he's suffering? Is he panting or open-beaked breathing?


 I may be wrong, but I think Janet is thinking of the legal limitations to what it is permissible for us to do as the pigeon belongs to someone. 

I would give it a drop of Metacam, in humans those infections can be really, really painful!


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Today's pictures.

Before I bathed it first.









Then after I tried to ease off what looked like a hard scab. It's just a solid yellow mass inside, so I can't flush anything out.









I've bathed it with Saline and put some Metronidazole on it as suggested.

I'm stumped as to what to do as the vet I have seen with a pigeon before is away, he wasn't an avian vet but has an interest in wildlife , so would see pigeons. He has another vet he works with, but she was all for amputating Bandy's wing when I took her in with a bad injury. Granted she can never fly again, but in keeping the wing she can flutter up to perches, so I don't have so much faith in her decisions. 

Cynthia,
you were right, I'm in a dilema as to whether I should be going ahead as I haven't spoken to the owner. I hate this situation.


Sorry Pidgey,
I worded that bit badly about her suffering, ( too much of our neighbours home made Polish vodka). 
No she hasn't got a problem breathing, as yet anyway, but it must be uncomfortable for her is what I really meant.

Considering she's eating ok, her poops aren't looking any better. Seem a bit greener if anything.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Just an add on to my last post. I have made an appointment to see the vet this afternoon after all so will report back after that. 

Janet


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

25mg BID should be fine, for at least 10 days, probably more looking at the photos. Higher dose or go 25mg TID if not clearing up quickly
Just seen latest photos. Could be an infected sebaceous cyst or infected feather follicle. Still inclined to say abcess without a manual examination. All that cream gunk needs to come out. If I had the bird and it was not subsiding within a couple of days I might try lancing. If the mass is solid then it may need isaflo and a whip off with a scalpel. That way the would could be semi closed with a stitch or two/ That's a job for a vet if your not qualified.
Keep us posted
Cheers


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The "solid, yellow mass" is something resembling scrambled eggs in consistency. In short, it's the same stuff as you see in canker buttons in the mouth--a bunch of spent white blood cells (leukocytes). Due to the pressure of that ball of stuff, the surface hole will continue to open up. One of the problems with bird abscesses is that they don't drain as easily as ours BECAUSE their pus has that scrambled egg consistency. I don't think you'd want to try digging that ball out at this point because it'd be too easy to start some serious bleeding, just like can happen with canker nodules inside the beak and throat.

Metronidazole given systemically can also help to moderate the cell-mediated immune response, which is another way of saying that it can help slow down the over-production of that solid, yellow inflammatory debris.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/metronidazole.html

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nooti said:


> For everyone else, sorry I have not been around much. *Life gets busier the older you get*. I spend a lot of time working and since I work more than an hour's drive from home it takes up most of my day. I worked over christmas too but get a week off at New Year so looking forward to that.


Sure doesn't seem like it should be that way, huh? Especially seeing as how just WATCHING children drains me!

Of course... they're not usually trying to make ends meet all the time...

Pidgey the Pooped


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feefo said:


> Pidgey, I love your description of the wound as a "volcano caldera"!  That is so apt.


You know... there's probably not very much difference between that thing and an inflamed pimple at this point other than sheer size--sizewise, it's nearer to the volcano!

Pidgey


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

MetronidazolE is a good all round antibiotic - can be given topically, orally or by injection. How simple is that? 
Love your signature - Pidgey the Pooped lol


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Oh shoot, I just typed a post and it disappeared, so here goes again.

Well I did take the bird to the vets, as I said she has seen birds before for me but isn't an actual avian vet, nevertheless she is all I have around here.

She lanced it with a razor and proceeded to scoop it out with what can only be described as a tiny ice cream scoop.

It was exactly as you said Pidgey, like scrambled eggs. She hasn't got it all out by any means as she said what's left is still attached. There's a massive hole now, quite frightening to look at.
I have some iodine solution to flush it with daily and am to clean around inside with a cotton wool bud to get any loose stuff out.

She purposely scraped the edge of the wound to make it bleed to encourage new tissue growth.

Also have to carry on with Synulox. 25mgs twice a day.
She did make the comment as Pidgey also said, that an abcess in a bird and a rabbit is notoriously difficult to get to heal.  so this might take a while, and could even be a permanent problem. Takes me back to Charlie Farley with a hole in her chest that didn't heal.

I've just given it a flush, the only thing that bothered me was the liquid drained away inside, is that ok?

The vet doesn't see her a being race fit again either.

Will take a new picture tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Metronidazole and Clavamox/Synulox (same thing) are both antibiotics that work well in necrotic tissue. They do, however, have a different spectrum of activity (they go after different bugs) and different ways of doing the job. You're rarely completely sure that you "got" the original infection but it's a good sign when you can't find any evidence of it ever having been there a few months down the road, of course. This one isn't on a joint that you'd see a typical paratyphoid boil (some are actually caused by streps and staphs, of course) so we can easily speculate on a plethora of other causes--it could even be a canker nodule from inside the esophagus although I hope not!

Anyhow, always remember this mantra: "avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." That means that they have a difficult, if not impossible, time of turning dead or dying tissue into something that can be easily carried away by the lymph system--that's why those spent leukocytes just amass into lumps and buttons. If the bird can't literally eject them right through the skin like this one's been attempting to do, they end up forming something approaching rocks inside the body.

The manner in which this one was getting "ejected" isn't a controlled process though--it's more just a matter of the thing continuing to grow until the skin surrounding it is stretched thin enough to cause enough pressure at the center of the pressure point to restrict bloodflow. That, and the inflammatory response itself is causing cell death in the region of that "caldera". Thus, the expulsion of the lump was going to end up being a practical matter, if nothing else. The big danger is that there might also be pressure and rot concentrating onto something in the cervical column as well. The major piping in there, of course, involves the esophagus, the airway, arteries, the musculature of the neck, the bones of the neck and the nerves (mostly IN the vertebrae, but not all!). Dangerous place to have an abscess like that growing that close!

With good management and good luck, this could just as easily cure out to be as though it had never happened in the end even though it might take a month or two. As such, this bird might be just fine as a racer in the future. Personally, I'd just as soon the bird got to retire and live out its days as a "pigeon of leisure", but that's just me...

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Yes I agree, I hope he will be allowed to stay put here for treatment.
Need to speak to the owner and hope they'll agree.

All he needs now is some good luck and just hope that there isn't a further problem going on inside.

Thanks for all that info, very interesting,

Janet


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Glad he has most of it out. I bet he feel smuch better already.
Great job. Keep us updated.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

amyable said:


> She purposely scraped the edge of the wound to make it bleed to encourage new tissue growth.
> 
> Also have to carry on with Synulox. 25mgs twice a day.
> She did make the comment as Pidgey also said, that an abcess in a bird and a rabbit is notoriously difficult to get to heal.  so this might take a while, and could even be a permanent problem. Takes me back to Charlie Farley with a hole in her chest that didn't heal.
> ...


Actually... I wouldn't want the outside to heal until the inside was finally taken care of. That said, I wouldn't bother trying to encourage new tissue to heal over the original wound just yet. On birds, you don't normally have to worry about that kind of stuff anyhow--they close up pretty good when they're done on the inside. It CAN be quite a pain in the bum getting that to happen sometimes...

As far as the liquid draining to the inside... kinda' depends on how much, the composition and where it's draining to. If it's going into the crop then you wouldn't want it to if it's full of iodine or saltwater. If it's going into the space under the skin where the fascia is... well... you don't really want it going in there either unless it's a somewhat isotonic saline solution. "Isotonic" in this case just means that it's in mineral balance to the normal fluids of the body, which saline IV fluids typically are. I don't much like the idea of tipping the bird downward in order for said fluids to drain out but that's one possibility. If a bird is otherwise in good shape mentally and physically, you can get away with that. If a bird is kinda' woozy because it's that sick, fluids from the crop can too easily get aspirated into the glottis (airway entrance up at the top of the throat) and then the bird can die of drowning right then or pneumonia later due to foodstuffs getting in the lungs or airsacs.

I suppose I usually mix up one teaspoon of salt in a liter of water to make a somewhat isotonic solution. That's what I did with Pierpont's chest wound to flush it every day or so. I don't recall that any fluids "disappeared" into the thoracic cavity and I was actually squirting it rather forcefully into the wound. I'd probably have felt pretty panicky if I had seen any disappear inside...

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

amyable said:


> Yes I agree, I hope he will be allowed to stay put here for treatment.
> Need to speak to the owner and hope they'll agree.
> 
> All he needs now is some good luck and just hope that there isn't a further problem going on inside.
> ...


Have you got the owner's location from the RPRA Janet? If the pigeon is not local, I'd suggest that it is not yet in fit condition to be transported. If the vet treatment you have obtained is working for the bird, it may be as well to continue as you are. Just a personal view, and probably stating the obvious, but maybe something the owner may wish to consider

John


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

John,

I usually tell the owners that the EKG; EEG; CBC, Lipids & Endocrine Panels don't look _too_ bad but that "the bird is still slipping in and out of a coma for some as yet undetermined reason." When I get to the part about "tomorrow's scheduled thoracic endoscopic procedure", they usually just tell me to "KEEP THE BIRD!"

And promptly hang up.

Never fails.

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

LOL! Now that, our Pidgey, sounds like a foolproof way of getting new feathered residents 

John


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> John,
> 
> I usually tell the owners that the EKG; EEG; CBC, Lipids & Endocrine Panels don't look _too_ bad but that "the bird is still slipping in and out of a coma for some as yet undetermined reason." When I get to the part about "tomorrow's scheduled thoracic endoscopic procedure", they usually just tell me to "KEEP THE BIRD!"
> 
> ...


ROFL !!! 

Sounds just like "our" Pidgey!!! Still ROFL !!!

HKLL
Shi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> John,
> 
> *I usually tell the owners that the* EKG; *EEG*; CBC, Lipids & Endocrine Panels *don't look too bad* but that "the bird is still slipping in and out of a coma for some as yet undetermined reason." When I get to the part about "tomorrow's scheduled thoracic endoscopic procedure", they usually just tell me to "KEEP THE BIRD!"
> 
> ...


Now that one I'd _love_ to see you perform on a pigeon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As much as I hate to admit it, honesty isn't ALWAYS the best policy...

...sometimes the end really _does_ justify the means!

Pidgey

P.S. They really do have that stuff, though:

http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/95/2/1263


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well, I really can't say anything more can I? Lol.
Pidgey, you and I would be very firm friends with that sense of humour.
Janet, the vet did what I would have done had I taken the bird in and I agree it was probably the best course of action. I have seen much worse injuries and the bird made a full recovery so I suspect this one will do very well with continuing treatment. Thank you for caring.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Well, the pigeon is in good hands (physical and virtual!) so let's hope he remains there. I don't know much about the sport but I suspect that he is too young to have any proven value as a racer or breeder, so whatever you do, Janet, make certain that the owner understands that you are happy to nurse him and rehome him!

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Feefo said:


> Well, the pigeon is in good hands (physical and virtual!) so let's hope he remains there.
> 
> Cynthia


I have to say how much I appreciate the 'virtual' help I've had so far, I couldn't face this one without it.

I'm about to try and find a contact number for the owners. I feel very nervous about doing it as this poor bird's fate lies in their reply.

I've been rehearsing my lines, ( not quite able to master Pidgey's exact words, but will be on similar theme). 

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Well it's ok with the owner for me to take it over, such a relief as he said it had been missing since September, in fact he's lost 35 birds with that one.

Did say he would have euthanised it if it had got back, so lucky bird it didn't.

He asked what was wrong and he reckoned he's had these cysts on other birds before on various parts of their bodies. He said it sounded like a protein cyst from eating a high protein diet. When he gets them he changes their feed to pure barley and the growths eventually fall off !!! Doesn't go to vets, ( a waste of money he said). 
I'm not sure though as he described the growth as tending to be black.
In saying that, this bird is under weight and if he's been living rough since September, he must have been a very good scavenger to have found such a good diet to produce a high protein cyst, but who knows.
I'll keep on the treatment and see what happens.

I tried to flush it this morning, but only used the salt water, and very little. It drained inside again, so I'll just wet the cotton bud I think and clean around the hole as opposed to flushing.
I can see a gap in the yellow substance inside. so maybe that's where the fluid's going.










Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Lucky little bird! 



> I'm not sure though as he described the growth as tending to be black.


It sounds as if he is describing atypical pox...and talking rubbish about the cause. 

Perhaps if you held the bird with the hole pointing downwards when you flush so the fluid washes and drains out at the same time? (I asume that you're using a syringe)?

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

This one is definitely in a better place now!

Doesn't sound like this owner exactly has the best interests of his birds at heart 

John


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Yes I'm using a syringe.

I had Charley Farley with the chest wound a good while ago and when I flushed it, the fluid would spray back out over me with the force. Mind you that never healed successfully and infection kept erupting periodically.

The contents of the hole is firmly attached and I got very little out today with the cotton bud.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

John_D said:


> This one is definitely in a better place now!
> 
> Doesn't sound like this owner exactly has the best interests of his birds at heart
> 
> John


He definitely had no sentiment over the bird, although he was very pleasant to me. He wouldn't keep it now as he's about to start breeding next years birds, bless them.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I'm a little concerned that there maybe something else going on with him.
Seems depressed and just stands pushed up against the back of his carrier. Obviously isn't happy being confined but just not looking as bright.

I haven't seen him show any interest in eating today and his weight has dropped slightly. His keel is feeling sharper.
Urates are creamy coloured too.

Should I treat him with Spartrix or would that be too much on him on top of Synulox and Baytril?

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I wonder how much actual iodine disappeared down him?

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> I wonder how much actual iodine disappeared down him?
> 
> Pidgey


This was a good observation, so I had a quick look. The lethal dose for iodine are as follow: ORAL (LD50): Acute: 14000 mg/kg [Rat]. 22000 mg/kg [mouse], so I think it should be safe to say that if an amount of iodine did disappear into his body, it will not be enough to be even close to fatal. Just keep him well hydrated to help flush his system as a precaution.

On the question of the Spartrix, if anything I would lean more toward the use of metronidazole, as this will address both canker concerns and be effective against anaerobic bacteria the other two drugs don't cover.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Just been looking up the info on the iodine.
What the vet gave me was Pevidine, which according to the internet is 0.075% iodine, doesn't say what else. I diluted it 50/50 aswell so I hope it's slightly less of a risk to him.
I only flushed it with that the first time and as soon as I saw it had drained away, I only used the Isotonic to wash it.

The surrounds of the wound are still red and hot.

Also when I cleaned around the inside with the cotton bud, in the spot where I reckon the fluid drains, the bud has traces of blood on it.

I decided to hand feed him some peas tonight and have been dripping him hydrating fluid along his beak.
He has attempted to eat some seeds since. How many I can't be sure as there are lots in the bottom of the cage, so he maybe just throwing them about.

I was watching his posture today as he did look a little 'penguinish'. Now he seems to stand more horizontal, which when I looked in Colin Walker's book suggests abdominal pain. another reason I was thinking there might be another problem.
I'll see how he looks tomorrow.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Pevidine, which according to the internet is 0.075% iodine, doesn't say what else. I diluted it 50/50 as well so I hope it's slightly less of a risk to him


Well, Janet this concentration, if my math is correct, works out to be 75mg/Lt of iodine. Since you diluted it 50/50, we are down to 37.5/mg/Lt, or another way to put it, 3.75mg/per 100ml, so say even 10ml remained inside of him, this would be .375mg of pure iodine, not much by any account in terms of LD50. I don't discount it could be causing some GI issues which I would most likely attribute to iodine's ability to probably wipe-out both good and bad bacteria. Therefore, I would also start him on some probiotics to bolster his friendly GI bacteria and see how it goes. You may be right, there could be something else going on, that very well may not be attributable to the iodine, so keep a close eye on him.

Karyn


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Janet
It's possible the infection is getting the better of him. Would hate to tread on someone's toes but I wouldn't give probiotics while giving antibiotics. Antibiotics kill bacteria and probiotic bacteria would just get in the way and hinder the work of the antibiotic. I would increase the dosage of the antibiotic you are giving - by at least 50%. If no improvement in the bird in 24 hrs increase it again. You can safely go to 100% more. The idea of giving antibiotics is to reach a certain level in the system and keep it there for a sustained length of time to deal with the infection. Probiotics should be given from 24hrs after the last dose of antibiotic.
If it is any help, weather permitting I shall be going down to Leicester on Sunday. If you felt it was too much for you I'd be happy to meet somewhere convenient and take him on myself. Not sure where you live, I think your location is West Midlands.
Anyway, keep us posted. 
PS Happy New Year to everyone


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Nooti, no worries about stepping on my toes, I am here to help the best I can and to learn as well. Although you have not posted much in the last while, I am familiar with the contributions you have made to this forum, and am happy you are keeping an eye on this thread.

Karyn


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## kbbigman (Jun 4, 2009)

Janet what the fancier was talking about is totally different to what this pidgey has, a protein lump/temporary tumour/blood wart, appears dark/black and tends to harden/dry up and fall off, some people tie thread around the base to encourage this to happen and the lump can bleed if knocked. We had one last year on one of our babies, it fell off after a few weeks and you wouldn't know that anything had been wrong with her. Even vets disagree on the exact cause of these lumps some thoughts are dietary hence high protein diet others think viral, plus they can tend to be passed down through the generations.
Hope all goes well for you and your new feathered friend!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> If it is any help, weather permitting I shall be going down to Leicester on Sunday. If you felt it was too much for you I'd be happy to meet somewhere convenient and take him on myself


If at all possible, Janet, do!


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I just thought I would add my experience of a similar situation I have delt with. 

I had a rescue that had almost the identical type of lump at the base of neck/shoulder joint to wing. It was a large abcess resulting from a previous injury from a BB Gun wound. 

The lump was removed by surgery. Two yellow masses the size of the tip of your thumb were removed. The bird was put on a course of Cipro for 10 days. The wound area was flushed 3 times a day with a peroxide/water solution. The wound appeared to close, then during the second week a black puss plug formed. I softenened it and removed it and then another smaller plug formed. I again removed it. The vet told me it was the remaining infection leaving the body. The wound finally completely healed.

The bird, although never able to fly again due to muscle damage fully recovered.

Most of you have alot more experience than I, but it is my opinion that until all the yellow substance has been completly removed this infection will continue to persist. I would also suggest treating with Nystatin for possible yeast infection resulting from antibotics.

Sending you healing thoughts and prayers for the birds recovery.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Folks,

So sorry I haven't been able to post back until now, it's been a manic day, but I did read the posts this morning.

Now I have read them again and had some time with 'Lumpy' as I call him, so I can report back on him.

Firstly Dobato, thank you for those calculations for the iodine, I'm at a total loss when it comes to figures, so appreciate the info.

Nooti, I have increased the dose on both Synulox and Baytril by 50%.
I'd been giving him 0.32ml of Baytril once a day, based on another thread for a bird of the same weight. Can you confirm if I'm right to be giving him as much as 0.48ml now. He's just above 400gms in weight.

The wound area isn't as red and hot this afternoon, some of it is looking yellowish in places.
No sign of blood on the cotton bud when I cleaned inside. I haven't flushed inside again, just dipping the bud in saline solution and gently wiping around the inside of the hole. Nothing much is coming away, it seems to be still quite firmly attached.
I am putting some Flagyl in there after I've done that. Also sprayed it with Colloidal silver in between sessions.

This morning he was lying down, not sure if he was just relaxing or if it was due to discomfort. He's now standing horizontally again.

His poops are now brown as opposed to green of the first few days, but still creamy around the edge. A good amount this morning though so hopefully the peas might have helped. I've force fed him some more peas today and kept up with the hydrating fluid. Have also syringed a small amount of digestive enzymes after feeding him to help make sure his crop keeps moving.

I haven't forced it but noticed when I tried to place the syringe down his throat to just pass his airways, I felt it might be obstructed on the side of the lump. I can get the syringe down further on his left side. Just an observation so the lump might be protruding a little into his throat area, but his food must be getting through though.

So I'd say he's no worse than yesterday, fairly stable.

Nooti also thanks so much for the offer to take his care over, I'd be very selfish if I didn't accept your kind offer as much as I'd like to be able to say I'd pulled him through. If he didn't make it I'd never forgive myself for not giving him the best chance.

It does depend on whether you do come down obviously and unfortunately I have already committed myself to having my 95 year old Mum-in-law to dinner as we haven't seen her over Christmas.
I'd have to think of a way to try and excuse myself for a part of her visit if you are around these parts, not sure how that will go down but if I pm you my phone numbers, then we can have a chat about it once you know your plans.
Please don't worry if the weather doesn't permit, I will carry on doing all I can with your guidance and do my best for Lumpy no matter what.

Thanks

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Right after all my last blurb there has been a significant change in the lump this evening.

When I was giving him evening meds I noticed the rim of the wound which is now a scab was starting to come away from the skin revealing the abcess inside.
I bathed it with saline and the scab lifted in one place. I was able to remove some pieces of the abcess but generally it's still in one piece.
In this picture you can see the hole where I reckon the fluid drains away.


















In Louise's bird the lump was removed surgically. Will this come away on it's own if left alone or do I need to encourage it out?
I know Pidgey warned of setting off a bleed earlier on.

I had something possibly the same with Iraklis, a Woodie now with Cynthia. He had two lumps under his wing resulting from an infection. The night before I was taking him to Maria to live, the one lump came away and the other fell out on it's own after he'd been there a few weeks. These were smaller lumps but looked very similar in composition.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

kbbigman said:


> Janet what the fancier was talking about is totally different to what this pidgey has, a protein lump/temporary tumour/blood wart, appears dark/black and tends to harden/dry up and fall off, some people tie thread around the base to encourage this to happen and the lump can bleed if knocked. We had one last year on one of our babies, it fell off after a few weeks and you wouldn't know that anything had been wrong with her. Even vets disagree on the exact cause of these lumps some thoughts are dietary hence high protein diet others think viral, plus they can tend to be passed down through the generations.
> Hope all goes well for you and your new feathered friend!


Hi Michelle,

great to hear from you. Thank you for posting about these protein lumps, good to know what to look out for, it's something this owner had quite regularly but I didn't think this could be the same as he said they were dark in colour.
Hope you and all your birds are well.

Janet


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Janet,
Not sure which day we are coming to Leicester. Are you within knocking distance? You can email me on [email protected]
I wouldn't worry about the blood you saw. That simply means some part of the lump has had all the yellow stuff removed from it and blood is a sign that part of the lining is clear.
Not too happy about the brown faeces though. That's not a good sign.
Your dosage is fine, but give it twice a day not once. I don't think the pigeon is getting enough antibiotic.
If we are coming down I'll let you know. However I can't guarantee success but can give it my best shot. I'll get a hospital cage ready so it's at correct temperature when we arrive back.
We will know more tomorrow night
Helen


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I know that my vet would pull that entire plug out. It all HAS to come out sooner or later, one way or another. The hole is getting bigger for that very thing to happen anyhow. Yes, there's a small risk of a bleed, but probably less and less as time goes on.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Helen, had just sent you a pm with my phone numbers. Will email you.

Can I just clarify about the dose, do you mean me to break the full Baytril dose into two and give 0.24mls twice day or give 0.48mls twice a day?
( just want to make sure I interpreted this ok !).

I'm now giving Synulox 3/4 of 50mg tablet twice a day: 75mgs per day aswell.

Janet

Pidgey, will have a go at it tomorrow.  (I might see if the vet is in tomorrow first).


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

I agree with Pidgey, I would have pulled that plug out. It looks like the skin would peel back and it should just pop out. But then we are experienced and not fazed by such a prospect.
It still could be Trichomonas, but as it is being swabbed by Metronidazole/Flagyl then that risk is being taken care of. Trich has the consistancy of cream cheese but can be stubborn to remove simply because it puts blood vessel roots into the bird's flesh
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, give 48mls twice a day. It is easier to maintain an antibiotic level if given BID (twice daily)
I'll give you a call about our trip down. We will likely be there all day as we are visitng family for christmas, albeit a bit late


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Just a thought, if you can get a syringe down and into the crop you could force feed and this would improve the bird;s chances. Even something simple as chicken soup would put some good nutrition down. (make sure it's Heinz) LOL Liquidise it first so nothing sticks in the tube. I make my own feed using chick crumbs but a good option is weaing food which you can buy at good pet stores, Pets at Home sell it, and it mixes easily - no liquidising to get rid of lumps.
A decent amount would be 20mls 3 times a day at first, increasing to 30 by the second day. Easier to do if you use a larger syringe and attach plastic pipe to end of it and push pipe down to the crop. Aquarium airline pipe is just the right size. Cut a length about 3 1/2 inches which should reach the crop easily.
Hope this helps


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Janet..........now that I have seen your new pictures of the lump it is exactly the same as was my birds. It has the consistancy of tofu. It absolutely needs to be completely removed for the bird to heal, along with the antibotics. I don't know if I would pull the yellow part out by myself, I really think it needs to be removed with a surgical instrument, most likely with local anestiatic. The black pus plugs are a different matter, they can be easily pulled and removed. I would be afraid of a bleed due to the size of this infection. 

I hope you can get in touch with your Vet tomorrow.

Regards,
Louise


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Well it's out !! 

This morning I had a clean around with saline and the skin had come away in more places. I only managed to speak to the vet by phone as she was on half day so she couldn't see him. She said to keep on getting any loose pieces out, didn't seem too keen on me trying for the whole thing.
I did try and tube feed but the tube wouldn't go down easily, seemed to stick by the lump. He got stressed so I left it.
I also noticed a couple of tiny seeds from the mix he's eating come out with the pieces, I mentioned that to the vet but she said she hadn't thought it was interfering with the crop when she felt it.
He noticably winced at one point when I got the cotton bud under the lump so I gave him his meds and left him in peace for a couple of hours.

His poops were very plump and looked good this morning so I think he had ate well yesterday.

I went back to him this afternoon and the whole thing looked as if it had moved and was more prominent, and seemed to only be holding in one place, so.... I took a deep breath and eased it with a bud to the point I could get hold of it and it just came away.








This shows the size better against my thumb.








I cleaned around inside with saline and it didn't bleed except around the edges.
I had no idea what I should do with the hole so decided to take him down to my dog's vet where they have a locum on Saturday to asked her advice.
She clearly wasn't sure but did offer to give him some gas and suture it if I wanted and was prepared to take the risk. It didn't fill me with confidence.
Anyway, she said she thought there was a bit of puss still inside, so then suggested I leave it until Monday, that wouldn't be a problem and keep flushing until then. So I brought him home until I could ask you good folks !

I've just been and tried to tube feed him again and this time it was no problem, and so he's had some Kaytee and I also popped him some defrosted peas. He really needs to put on some weight now.
Will give him some more later.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, very nice job indeed, that is quite the mass. The prior photos you posted did look like the mass was ready to come out.

I think you are doing things exactly right, and I am sure others will be along before too long to advise on continued wound management.

Again, nice work,

Karyn


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well done! Don't think you need me now.  If he's continuing to improve then you may as well carry on. Keep up with the antibiotics and flush out the hole twice a day. It needs to heal from inside out. Best thing for that now is proflavine anti-bacterial jelly. Think the retail name is BR by a company named Radiol. It's fantastic for that sort of wound and you should be able to get it at your vets. It comes in a tube like savlon ointment, is bright orange and can look a mess after administraion but is super for this job.
Keep us posted. My guess is he'll not look back now that's out.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Janet.......I am so glad the darn thing came out. Now the healing process can begin. It appears to be about the same size as I had with my bird, but his was in two pieces.

After my Vet removed the mass he did not suture it. He left it open to complete drainage of any remaining infection. I was instructed not to flush it, but apply a warm peroxide/water solution on a cotton ball almost like a compress three times a day and then apply neosporin directly on the hole. The hole did close in 3/4 days, but as I mentioned before, it did form 2 black puss plugs that were easily removed, and then the wound completely closed and the feathers regrew.

My bird was on a regime of Cipro for 10 days.

You have done a great job!!!!............Please keep us posted.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Nooti,

Thank you,
Can I just get your thoughts about what this vet said about it needing suturing.
It is a very gaping hole and she pointed out a big blood vessel running down the edge of the opening she said to be careful not to disturb when flushing.
I will take him back to the original vet I saw on Monday to get her opinion, but this one said when Lumpy, (need to find him a new name now!), stood straight, the edges of the wound didn't meet and so needed stitching to hold them together.
That shouldn't be done then if the other one suggests it?

(I will ask the vets for the gel you mentioned).

My gosh, I hope you're right and he'll be ok now. He looks me straight in the eye as if to say, 'I hope you know what you're doing' 

Thank you so much and I will keep you posted.

Janet

ps
The road are very icy tonight, are you still making the trip? If so I hope you have a safe run.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Well done Janet!!! I bet you both feel a lot better now.

And Nooti thank you so much for responding to my S.O.S!


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Louise, that's very encouraging to know yours went ok.

Thank you telling me your story, and for the info, I was concerned when she said about it needed suturing, but didn't want to contradict her.
I hope the original vet says to leave it otherwise I'll have to just bring him home and manage it myself.
I'd hate to think it was stitched and I couldn't see if there was any infection starting up inside.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Feefo said:


> Well done Janet!!! I bet you both feel a lot better now.
> 
> And Nooti thank you so much for responding to my S.O.S!


Hi Cynthia,

I actually felt very shaken up after it came out, I can't imagine how the poor bird must have felt. He just sat very quietly on my lap as if in shock.
I kept hugging him and rocking him backwards and forwards like a baby. 
and kept repeating, 'oh my gosh', oh my gosh' (or words to that effect!!).

Thank you too for calling in the cavalry, I wouldn't have got this far without all this help.
You're all brilliant,

Janet


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't mean to contradict the vet, but the wound needs to heal from the inside out. It shouldn't just be sutured closed. That can breed more infection. Even with people, they would flush it and pack it, and allow it to stay open til the inside healed.


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## Ivana (Jan 12, 2010)

oh i had this problem with a small bird once. he was about a month old, and he died because of a mass just like this, as i didnt know what to do with it. it was a very very loved bird, i could take her for walks/flights in the park and then she would go back with me when I called. luckily you could get rid of it


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Ivana,

I'm sorry to hear about your little bird, it must have been hard for you.

This story didn't actually finish with the lump coming away after all. It turned out that it was Trich and not an abcess as the vets diagnosed. The growth had interfered with the crop causing a rupture once it came away.

The bird luckily is still under treatment now with someone who has so much more experience than I do and is doing much better.

The story is continuing in another thread now if you're interested: HELP URGENT. Lumpy's Crop Has Ruptured.

Again I'm sorry.

Janet


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