# Poop while flying?



## Prizm

I read somewhere that pigeons can't poop while they fly...Is this true?


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## feralpigeon

I've also read that they don't unless sick. I did however just witness two pigeons mating while flying.... 

fp


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## Lovebirds

Prizm said:


> I read somewhere that pigeons can't poop while they fly...Is this true?


I always heard the same thing, but I don't think it's true.......but don't really know for sure. 
I just found out the other day that they can scratch thier head while they are flying. Who knew??  
I would expect that if they can scratch thier head, they can poop and who knows what else they can do while they are flying? 
Maybe someone should invent some sort of little pouch so they can have a little snack on thier way home from a race.  And while they're at it.....how about a tiny little water bottle??


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## Feefo

I have only seen one poop in flight.

Pigeons usually make a serious business about pooping, they seem to stop, think, take two steps backward then poop. This is why walking under a ledge with pigeons on it is risky.

John has watched the pigeons in the nest being encouraged to poop over the edge of the nest. Their dad would give them a little nudge and the would start the backward steps bit.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking

Yep, pigeons are quite anal retentive about pooping, so doing it in mid-air could be just an accident.  

It definitely seems to come with much thought, especially those mother loads, when the hen is off nest duty. My hens sure make a BIG display of it.


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## Larry_Cologne

*Defecation in flight?*

Hello Prizm,

If you compare them to us and other animals, it might give you some insight on how to finesse your question. First of all, I will say I don't have the answer, only some thoughts on the subject. 

We don't usually pee or defecate while walking, because it could be quite messy. You could say the bird shouldn't have that problem, because the mess drops like a bomb and disappears below. 

Disregard the mess then. 

In one of his books, Larry McMurtry (author of _Lonesome Dove, Dead Man's Walk_ etc.) describes an Indian stealing a horse at night: he waits until the horse has spread his legs out wide to pee, then grabs the horse while the horse is occupied and somewhat incapacitated. 

We usually prefer to urinate and defecate where we feel safe. That usually means where we have some privacy. Where we will be undisturbed. It is hard to stop in mid-stream or in mid-bowel movement (our family referred to them as "B.M."s), so we choose a place where we will be able to take the time necessary in order to finish, without interruption and usually without distraction. When we are asleep and when we eliminate, we are vulnerable if exposed to our enemies and to danger. 

A bird and many animals will eliminate whatever is in their colon or lower intestine before flying or moving somewhere else, so that they are not burdened with unnecessarry weight. Often while an animal is underway he will not need to eliminate because excess moisture is being extracted from the feces to be used in dispersing excess heat (generated by the exercise) away from the body through other means (sweating, losing water vapor through breathing). 

If we are suddenly frightened and have to fight or flee, we will eliminate what we can from our intestines, and we may even vomit, so that none of our resources (circulation of blood, oxygen supply) is taken up by the digestive processes, but are available for extreme action. (Which is where we have come up with the expression "got the sh*t scared out of me"). 

The anal sphincter is a largely involuntary muscle (perhaps totally involuntary, I don't know) which will also relax when it is deprived of oxygen, after a tremendous amount of exercise, or at death. 

If a bird had an irritation of the bowels take place such as from an ongoing disease or infection, then it might be stimulated to defecate in flight. (Like when we get diarrhea or have to vomit and don't quite make it to the toilet). Otherwise, I don't know. 

It is possible that the muscles used in flight require the sphincter to be tightened also. Try peeing or defecating sometime when you are walking. Hard if not impossible to do. I find it hard to urinate in public. Probably a survival instinct. 

Why am I writing all this stuff, most of which is probably obvious to PT members? I have thought about it in the past, in the context of formulating a suitable answer to those who use it (in-flight bombers) as an argument against having pigeons around. 

I have also read claims that pigeon poop is acidic and damages buildings. Is this true? Is it ever acidic? Need to get out some pH paper and collect poops from varying sources. But supposedly the "experts" have already done so. I tend more and more to question just about everything I read (my own writngs and comments most of all -- I have to go back and make corrections and additions quite often. Some time back I wrote in a post that the volume of oxygen in air is 18%, when I think the correct answer is 21% (and was as high as 23% in the time of the dinosaurs). Hope nobody made a life or death decision based on my post. (Perhaps only one or two read it. Can't get a swelled head over my posts in P.T. But I do like to be factually correct, and improve my writing skills and mental discipline). 

Larry


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## Jules

Sometimes... it's all about making "room".

From fledgling bluejays and other passeriformes to prematurely born kittens that I've rehabbed to the feral flock of pigeons I feed and my own cats, there is definitely a poop pattern that I've observed.

Whenever I've fed a baby bird - they reach up, beak gaping for the food then before taking the food mixture they step back and poop. And birds are taught not to poop where they sleep so they do step back and poop over the side of their nest.

Mother cats wash their newborns' bottoms right after feeding to stimulate their bowels.  She continues this "washing" until the deed is done. I remember years ago when I had 3 premature kittens (they were each about 2 inches in size) to raise and this "stimulation" that had to be done was quite a hoot!

One of my own cats... every morning at his breakfast time, he runs to his food dish in eager anticipation... takes a sniff then bolts for the litter box. Same ritual every morning.

The feral pigeons at my place wait on my roof when I go into the garage to get their feed. As soon as I come out with pail in hand - they fly just over me and well... let me just say I've learned to wear a hat! *haha*

Julianne


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## mr squeaks

THANKS, Julianne and Larry! I enjoyed reading your posts! Information mixed with humor is always welcome with me!

Guess I will add my 2 cents. Mr. Squeaks would probably prefer that I keep his pooping activities "private." He doesn't understand that his habits are for the "cause!"   

Anyway, being a racing homing pigeon (former and now on permanent disability), he STILL remembers to do his BIG morning dumps. These particular ones (one or two) are always done in about the same place and can be done before or after eating (usually before). Running around during the day, of course. leaves the "raisins." 

However, when in daddy mode, he will tend to do more of the "biggies" since he's not running around a lot. I've also noticed the routine when he's "ready:" stop - a step or two - lift tail - possible slight squat - BOMB AWAY (sploop!).

Have also noticed that when he's on the back of the couch, he will turn and "sploop" over the edge. Too bad if I'm close! Luckily, I keep the couch covered at all times with a sheet (helps w/cat fur too!)

Ahhhh, the joys of owning a housebound pij!  

Regarding pooping while flying, we need more "inpoop" to prove "outpoop!


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## Maggie-NC

It gets really fun when you have a nesting pair in the house and they hold the poops - usually until you are taking them out the back door to let them do their business out of the nest and then "splat" - right on top of your shoes.


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## mr squeaks

Lady Tarheel said:


> It gets really fun when you have a nesting pair in the house and they hold the poops - usually until you are taking them out the back door to let them do their business out of the nest and then "splat" - right on top of your shoes.


I sure hope you don't have on sandals or shoes with "holes" in the top! ROFL

I sure get an education when I visit Cindy's aviary! She keeps plastic on the floor of her aviary, which really makes cleaning less of a chore! Since someone is ALWAYS nesting, our conversation is interrupted by the sound of a nesting pij: *SPLOOP!*. Sure no mistaking THAT sound and what happened!! I'm most happy to volunteer to "clean up" since I'm a pooper scooper from waaayyy back! 

Mmmm, wonder if THAT'S why Cindy invites me over more often?


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## Larry_Cologne

*More on bird poops, and other stuff*

When I was in the seminary in San Antonio, Texas (high school years, early 1960s) studying to be a Catholic priest, we had to wear as everyday dress white shirts with black tie, pants, jackets, etc., except for recreational dress. Had a busy schedule from 5:45 A.M. to 9:30 P.M. weekdays and schooldays.

During spring a lot of black birds gathered to eat some sort of berries which we had in profusion. Made huge watery purplsh poops.

Several guys made a point of waiting outside for someone to emerge from the study hall, and step down from the porch onto the asphalt under a pecan tree where many birds gathered. A loud hand-clap sent thirty forty fifty or more birds skyward, minus their loads, five or ten of which would decorate the shirt of the victim. 

Since most of us owned only the recommended number of four or five shirts, which could be sent to a laundry once a week to be returned the following week, and it was hot and sweaty in Texas without air conditioning, the object of the fun was not always appreciative, and besides had to pay for the cleaning. I wound up with only two or three splots, one year, towards the end of the ripening berry season.

That is how I became aware that birds like to answer a gun salute or any similar provocation with a discharge of their own. 

Another story from those days, from chemistry class: Wiatrek asked Fr. Rice what the black objects (transformers) on telephone poles were. Fr. Rice said, "Wiatrek, you've heard the expression 'Turn on the juice'?" "Yes, Father." "Well, that's where they store the juice."

(By the way, the number 18 I associated with oxygen in previos posts was the atomic weight or molecular weight of water: an atom of oxygen, 16, plus two of hydrogen, 3). Never know when I will need to use it (such as calculating weight by displacement of a given volume of water). 

Larry


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## mr squeaks

Golly, Larry, doesn't sound like a very "Christian" thing to do! Were there any "confessions?" ROFL...sorry, I know it's not polite to laugh at another's "misery!" Bet those stains were hard to get out too!  BTW, YOU weren't ONE of the "clappers," were you????  

Now, for the purpose of this this thread theme, my question is: did the birds let loose while still ON the branch OR just after they "lifted?" After all, fright can be a sudden "releaser!"


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## Feefo

> Several guys made a point of waiting outside for someone to emerge from the study hall, and step down from the porch onto the asphalt under a pecan tree where many birds gathered. A loud hand-clap sent thirty forty fifty or more birds skyward, minus their loads, five or ten of which would decorate the shirt of the victim.


Ah! That explains the reference below to the ancient Norwich pigeons showering people with "pigeon muck:

_Norwich and Norfolk Recollections
Recollection from the 1840 to 1925
This was before the days of wireless, so, to inform people what the time was in Norwich, schools used to sound their bells at ten to nine and ten to two, factories sounded their sirens when it was time for work, or time to stop (with different notes so that the workforce could recognise theirs), and *a gun was fired from the castle ramparts to inform the citizens that it was ten o' clock. The cannon on the castle ramparts was fired by winching an iron ball up and dropping it to fire the gun. This was not a good time to be around the castle because hundreds of pigeons roosted on it and although the pigeons had been born and bred on the castle, the sound of the gun going off invariably caused these scavengers of the cattle and fruit markets to shower everybody in the vicinity with pigeon muck.*_

As for the acidity in the droppings, I read somewhere that it can be altered by putting something (I can't remember what but will do some research) in the water. No need, then. to cull pigeons in order to protect a building.

Cynthia


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## Jiggs

pigeons poop when taking off - or scared - (the big greeny ones) - It is to make it lighter for the trip to werever its going or to get away from whoever is chasing it, plus there is smell in the loop as well, depending on what it is doing. 

However a pet pigeon will make a small poop here and there as it feels comfortable doing it.

Moving backward to poop is not only a pigeon thing as most birds in a nest will poop over the edge as to not clog it (the nest I mean) - as well as to keep the signs away from the predators...

I did think however that pigeons could not mate while flying.... go figure


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## Larry_Cologne

*Pigeons backing up to poop*

Jiggs,

I think the primary reason pigeons in a nest or limited space back up is to keep poop from gumming up their feathers.

When our young pigeons in a nest were bigger and could move about on their legs easily, the poops built up and they walked through the mess without care. The small area they reserved for sitting stayed clean, and they stayed very clean also. (I didn't clean every day the first time around so as to not scare away the feral female mother pigeon). The female mother pigeon never pooped in or near the nest.

Mr. Squeaks,

No, I wasn't one of the clappers to frighten birds pooping on the unwary, because of the unnecessry and possible unaffordable expense of cleaning inflicted at other's expense, but I did plenty of other things for "fun."

I don't know for certain if the birds at that time pooped while still siting or while flying. It seemed they did it while lifting off. 

Larry


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## Jiggs

Larrry I think you have just disagreed with yourself as per your last few replies. To say a bird just defacates over the edge to keep its feathers clean is one answer but there are many more


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## Jiggs

Animals use defaction in many forms - fear, "love" mating etc...

Even us humans can poop ourselves out of fear (have seen it etc) there are many uses of "poop" even making a "home" with it. remember that you need to look at it in terms of age old uses - not what we have in our lofts today


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## Larry_Cologne

*Re primary reason*

Jiggs,

I'm going to get picky here, because I think it important to emphasize the point I was trying to make, and because I think you may have misunderstood me. (It is not so important that I be understood. I think my statement as I intended it to be understood is important).

I said the PRIMARY reason, that is, the main reason, *the most important reason*, in other words, *that birds avoid their poop is to keep it off their feathers.* I am not excluding or negating other reasons, which I think are of secondary or lesser importance. 

I would love to have an argument or a discussion if someone thinks that there is a more important reason why birds go to the trouble to avoid getting poop on themselves. 

A bird whose feathers are gummed up, stuck together, glued together, or call it whatever you like, by poop, is a bird in trouble. It would have trouble keeping is feathers in top shape so that it could fly and escape or avoid danger. Any other reason, I maintain, is secondary to that reason.

If anyone can point out a better or more important reason, I will happily be willing to concede the point and be grateful for the education.

I like to argue or disscuss, not to upset anyone or to get in a battle just for the sake of fighting, but as a means and a tool for learning. 

There may be _more important reasons_ which I am not aware of, because my observations are based mainly on watching a few nestllngs close up in domestic quarters, and not birds in the wild. 

That's why I say "_I_" and "_think_" .... 

I am not saying that "(quoted authorities) _state_ for a _fact_ that...." 

I removed a golf-ball sized mass of poop off of the pigeon *Splitbeak*, who could nor clean herself properly because of a missing upper beak (the left upper beak flopped around to the left side, the upper right beak was missing). The poop had been caused by a build-up of diarrhea, which I think was caused by a bout of illness from bad nutrition (and which Pigeonperson recently pointed out may have been caused by kidney malfunction). The poop stuck to her keel, near the vent. *Splitbeak had feathers stuck in the poop, and as the feathers attempted to grow out, they broke off close to the skin. A baby bird with poop on its young feathers and sticking them together would also have painful problems with feather growth, and be handicapped.* In like manner, a kid can have chewing gum in his hair, but it is not going to cause major problems of the same degree. 

Splitbeak was still able to fly with 50 to 60 grams (two ounces) of poop hanging from her lower torso, but it added to her weight of 240 grams (if I remember her weight correctly) and meant that she avoided flying with the flock when raptors flew overhead, and either crouched still, or made a dash for the church scaffolding nearby where she slept. When she walked she took short steps, because she could move her legs forwards but not backwards further than straight underneath her, where they thudded against the mass of poop. It took me almost an hour in the shower with her to remove the rock-candy-hard mass of poop after she became weak enough for me to catch in July 2005. 

It's getting late here, and I'm pooped.

Larry


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## mr squeaks

ooohhhh, I'm with you Larry! I LOVE heated or cold "discussions" (I'm an equal opportunity "discusser" - is that a word?) for the same reason you stated! 

Darn, would LOVE to hear about the "fun" YOU had...  *sigh* but, this IS a pigeon site! Mmmmm, wanna e-mail???   

That IS one thing about being able to communicate effectively AND a talent - being able to be "understood!" 

WARS can be started over MIS-communication(s)!


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## george simon

*Does Anyone Know*

Because this is a crappy subject does anyone know who THOMAS CRAPPER was?  .GEORGE


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## Maggie-NC

George - he was a plumber in Chelsea, England.  (And, I cheated because I looked him up.)  

Crap, where is Pidgey when you need him for something like this?


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## Larry_Cologne

*crappy topics*

George,

A hint: if you want to be a "know-it-all," Wikipedia is a good, free place to start. Half the time I want to explain something in a post (to myself, anyway: don't know who else reads or how many read the posts)

http://en.wikipedia.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Crapper 

Thomas Crapper
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thomas Crapper.
Thomas Crapper (baptized September 28, 1836; d. January 27, 1910) was a plumber who founded Thomas Crapper & Co. Ltd. in London.

Despite urban legend, Crapper did not invent the flush toilet (the myth being helped by the surname). However, Crapper put in effort to popularise it and did come up with some related inventions. He was noted for the quality of his products and received several Royal Warrants. The noun "crap" was in use long before he was born, but no longer in use in Victorian Britain.

The manhole covers with Crapper's company's name on them in Westminster Abbey are now a minor tourist attraction. 


Oh, and George, you can submit entries for this on-line encyclopedia. I always wondered if one could submit an autobiography. I suppose so. 

Larry


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## Pidgey

Lady Tarheel said:


> George - he was a plumber in Chelsea, England.  (And, I cheated because I looked him up.)
> 
> Crap, where is Pidgey when you need him for something like this?


Lady Tarheel,

I don't "doo" crap like that!

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne

*Baby chicks pooping outside nest: instinct or learned behavior?*

*Jules*,

I just now caught this, after refreshing myself with Pidgey's philisophical comment. 

I'm starting to get a handle on you, *Pidgey*! 

(Have to see through all his erudiiton and book-smarts).

Anyway, *Jules,* you said baby chicks are taught to poop outside the nest, and I wondered if that is true.

Reason: We rescued two baby feral pigeon chicks on the last day of April 2004. Vanilla Dove (later renamed Birdypoo, then stuck with *Pidgiepoo*) and *Chocolate* Dove, in a nest of large twigs in a large flower pot which some callous neighbor had removed from a terrace or balcony in cold weather and placed on the street. (We thought they might be from doves smaller than "rock doves"). There were only one or two poops to be seen (small, probably from early sitting days, by the father), anything else having dropped through the twigs or been ingested or removed by the parents. 

At the time I thought they were 10 days old, estimating from internet photos of a growing baby pigeon. Much later I was of the opinion they were only four to eiight days old. Their eyes were still closed, and started to open a day or so later. Perhaps the largest one, Pidgiepoo, had one eyelid slightly slitted, and had been able recognize a parent. We don't know. But neither could use their legs yet. That cmae after they used their beaks as canes or picks to pull themselves along, and their featherless wings as side props. 

We kept them covered under soft rags on top of washcloths and soft microfiber dishrag in a shallow broad-brimmed stainless steel flat-bottomed kitchen mixing dish, on top of a heating pad set to low heat. 

Chocolate died the thirteenth day he was with us, after showing only a diminishing appetite the day before, appearing otherwise okay when I went to the local community senior citizens' internet cafe with slow dial-up connection, for three hours. returned home to find a sobbing wife and a chick who died in agony within half an hour, after giving me a peck on the thumb, perhaps of sour crop (usually half-filled, never empty crop) which I tried desperatey to counteract with a smidgeon of pulverized cipro (or cotrim?) tablet, which he regurgitated a minute or two before dying. He weighed around 45 grams, an ounce and a half, and Vanilla/Pidgiepoo weighed about 80 grams.

When they could move around a bit on their legs, starting when they were still quite featherless (no projecting quills from ventral side of wings, they would back up to the edge of the bowl, their little rectums would stick out two or three millimeters, and a small pea-sized poop would shoot over the edge to land a few inches away on the towel-covered tablecloth. No toilet paper needed!

Who taught them?

Not I.

I don't think this is wishful thinking on my part, a rosy reconstruction of history, which we are all subject to. 

Anyone else have observations or comments to add?

Larry


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## Maggie-NC

Larry, I think it is instinct rather than learned.

Speaking of doo or poo or......most songbird babies' poo is encapsulated in a tidy little pouch which the parent will remove from the nest and carry away from the area. This goes on for a short period of time until they start pooing like any other bird. Sure makes it easier to take care of them while they do this.


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## Lin Hansen

Lady Tarheel said:


> Larry, I think it is instinct rather than learned.
> 
> Speaking of doo or poo or......most songbird babies' poo is encapsulated in a tidy little pouch which the parent will remove from the nest and carry away from the area. This goes on for a short period of time until they start pooing like any other bird. Sure makes it easier to take care of them while they do this.


Yes, I have seen Robin parents do this....

Linda


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## mr squeaks

Larry...glad to see you found out that Pidgey is "full of it..." You must be one of the last to find out... (and YES, I'm teasin'... )

I really enjoy the information you find, Larry! I hereby appoint you our "researcher in residence!" I learn something almost everytime I read your posts. Fortunately, I haven't found anything to "energetically" discuss... 

Thanks for all your time!


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## feralpigeon

Jiggs said:


> ............
> 
> I did think however that pigeons could not mate while flying.... go figure


Jiggs, it reminded me of a couple of flys flying one on top of the other. I was
as surprised watching it as anyone here could be reading about it after the 
fact  .

fp


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