# Worming Very sick emaciated Pigeons



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I just lost a little one this morning. I suspect I may have lost her due to worming her when she was extremely weak and emaciated. There were other things wrong with her; she had canker too. But this paragraph from a pigeon worming article I found today sums up pretty well what appeared to have happened to her in my care:

_*`` When birds are badly infested and you administer the wormer it can block the bird up by all the dead worms trying to be passed in the droppings. This is why some birds don�t recover from a bad worm problem after treatment as the worms pulling away from the intestinal wall can cause internal bleeding and the passing of dead worms blocking up their system. ''*_

What I saw happen with my girl is the Avian Vet wormed her on Monday. On Tuesday there were lots of long white worms in her droppings, and she seemed especially well and even started to fly around a bit. Then on Wednesday she became blocked up and started not passing droppings properly. I noticed when I weighed her she had lost another 10 grams in weight. Her vent had a large mass of caked-on feces that had to be cleaned off wit warm water. On Thursday she was passing bloody watery stools and started to die. This morning she passed away 

I am left with a lot of questions about worming very sick, emaciated pigeons. The Avian Vet who wormed her used wormout Gel, syringed into the back of her throat.

1. When should a rescued feral pigeon be wormed.? First up, before the worms can multiply even further, or later if medication starts working?

2. Is there a gentler way of worming so all the worms don't die at once and block the pigeon up and cause bleeding? Could using a low dose of wormer over a week work? What about a weaker wormer?

3. Has anyone had success with worming an emaciated pigeon at all? or do they normally not make it?

4. What is the best way to worm a very ill rescued feral pigeon? With food, without, in the water, directly etc?

I'd be grateful for any feedback or stories....its been rough

X bella


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not all wormers are created equal... many of them are quite toxic, in fact, and the dosing is supposed to be somewhere between killing the worms and killing the bird. Levamisole is different--it actually boosts a bird's immune system and only sorta' puts the worms to sleep temporarily. If necessary, you can roll it on slowly to keep from having quite the effect that you're worried about if it's likely to be a problem.

Another interesting thing about more poisonous wormers like Fenbendazole (Panacur) is that they're more likely to be absorbed into the bird's system IF... there's food being processed in the lumen (going through the intestines). If the bird's GI is completely empty from end to end, they'll just be taken up by the worms inside the intestines and those will die. Of course, that might be hard on the bird given what you've just said, but not as hard as getting some in their system (an overdose of Fenbendazole is REALLY bad).

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Opinions anyone - How does the 'Ivermnectin' rank as far as being easy on the Bird?


As one sidelight, I suppose some good broad spectrum Antibiotics would be prudent when worming a frail Bird, as it would pre-emptively anticipate systemic infections resulting from tiny open Lesions in the Intestines, from where Worms are letting go.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot Pidgey. Would you please explain what do you mean by `rolling Levamisole on slowly' ?? I am a beginner and I don't understand some things that other may take for granted.

I still have a very thin bird in my care and I am now terrified of worming him. The last two Sick pigeons i picked up were a couple...emaciated. I picked up the male, wormed him with wormout gel (a half dose). He was dead in the morning and had vomited. 

His mate, the hen I've been caring for 2 weeks, really picked up with Sulfa meds, but wasn't gaining weight. I took her to an Avian Vet who treated her for canker and wormed her with wormout Gel. And this, I strongly suspect, killed her over the course of the following days. I mean the worms were killing her too, so the Vet probably did the best that could be done. 

Wormout gel is Oxfendazole and Praziquantel - do you know anything about these?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Opinions anyone - How does the 'Ivermnectin' rank as far as being easy on the Bird?
> 
> 
> As one sidelight, I suppose some good broad spectrum Antibiotics would be prudent when worming a frail Bird, as it would pre-emptively anticipate systemic infections resulting from tiny open Lesions in the Intestines, from where Worms are letting go.


Hey Phil! 

Moxydectin is supposed to be the newer better version of Ivermec. I've read studies that show Moxydectin is quite substantially more effective, so I jumped at the opportunity to grab some from the Vet when i was there last Monday.

Its palatable and Safer too. 

I am thinking that in order to worm the sick bird in my care, I might have to wait until I get the Amoxyl I ordered from Jedd's.

But he's lighter than my hen was, so his worm infestation could be enormous. This time I would like to somehow kill them more slowly. Or something. I have had no luck with worming so far.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Bella, I personally stay away from fenbendazole (which oxfendazole apparently is a form of) because it has higher risk of side effects and seemingly a narrow safety margin. (I've also had birds die shortly after being dosed with it.)

I use ivermectin most often (covers roundworm and threadworm), but if a bird happens to have tapeworm, you'd need something with praziquantel in it (like Moxidectin Plus). Strongid (pyrantel pamoate) is also good for roundworm.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the Levamisoles that you can still get:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_56&products_id=142

The old formulary shows 5-15 mg/kg PO, 1-3 days while the new shows 10-20 mg/kg PO, Once and another entry shows 40 mg/kg PO, Once. I once did the first version for an emaciated pigeon over a period of at least three days and it worked pretty well. Incidentally, that stuff CAN make them a bit nauseous so it's best to not let them eat very much under such circumstances.

Regarding food... it's best not to give them formula or, at least, very much when they're being wormed. When a weak pigeon vomits formula, it's all too easy for them to aspirate and die in the attempt. That said, large seeds also have a difficult time getting through if there are a lot of worms so smaller seeds are better. 

It also helps to understand that what food is... IS energy! As such, you're going to have a lot easier of a time keeping such a bird alive if you keep them very warm. What has worked well for me in the past is hanging heat lamps over them such that they can get out from under them if need be. The emaciated bird that I mentioned didn't want to get out from under her heat lamp for almost three months. It hung over her by less than a foot and she ONLY left out from under it to eat and drink. You could touch her back and it felt quite hot, actually, but feathers are great insulation. Heat lamps do put out a lot of infrared heat so a lot of it literally goes straight through similar to how microwaves work--it's kinda' like the heat you get from a fire. As to that kind of heat being energy, they don't need as much energy input from food when they're kept warm under such circumstances.

Pidgey


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot for the info Jenfer and Pidgey!

Jenfer, that is interesting and also kind of validating hearing your experience. Wormout Gel has a really great reputation here for effectiveness/safety. But its killed every bird I've seen it used on, unless the dose was divided up over several days into small amounts (which is how I use it for worming wild birds with gape worm).

Pidgey, I can't seem to get a product here in Australia that is pure Levamisole. I have 4 wormers that I purchased locally, but 3 of them are blends of 2-3 different drugs, and the one with Levamisole in it is said to be the most dangerous to use with sick birds (Avitrol Plus ). 

The last one I have is moxydectin. I would like to use this, perhaps over a 3-5 day course if it can be used that way. But I will have to learn more about it first, and this time I would like to have him on Amoxyl during recovery.

The heating situation here is very good. Its summer so ambient temperatures are 28-30 degrees Celsius at the moment. And I have a radiant bar heater that I use in their room for extra heat.

My main weakness is I have no experience with crop feeding and the stress of trying to learn it feels like too much for me to handle emotionally right now. But if I had this skill, I would like to fatten him up via crop feeding, or at least try hard to do it, before worming him.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Does anyone know if there is truth in the rumour that fenbendazole is toxic to pigens? I guess that would also mean that wormout gel is toxic to them too?

I read this on pigeon angels, in the thread by Charis, who seems to really know her stuff.

EDIT: Ok, I've been looking into this some more, and Feefo, Charis and others have reported on this forum that Fenbendazole is definitely toxic to pigeons. So thanks HEAPS Jenfer for letting me know that Wormout Gel is closely related to this. It could be why I'm losing all my rescued pigeons after worming, aqnd also why it seems ok with Native birds. 

I hope i have better luck with my Moxydectin. It should be a much better wormer by all accounts.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...genuinely good to-the-core 'warmth'...no drafts, draped Cage.


And good Hydration...


'Reglan' on hand might be helpful since inflamitory problems likely attend worming in severe cases.


If the Bird is handling Formula well, powdered Cayanne may be added ( to about where the formula, for having been mixed a while, is still tolerable to an everage person for 'hot' ) and this improves circulation and decreases inflamation.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Bella, I'm attaching an article I'd saved on fenbendazole toxicity in pigeons. I have to say that for the birds who died, I've had birds who had no problem, but since there are safer alternatives out there, to me it doesn't make sense to take the risk. There are situations where I'd consider using fenbendazole, say if I was trying to treat giardia resistant to Flagyl.

Sorry about the pigeons who died. So heartbreaking, esp. the couple.

Jennifer


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Jenfer,

Thank you! Jenfer, can you remember whether the birds who did ok on fenbendazole were emaciated or not?


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Bella, at least one most definitely was not. Can't say for sure about the others. 

One of the ones who died was seemingly healthy and actually ready for release (she was going stir crazy). At the last moment, the rehabber who I consulted with at the time did a fecal float and discovered she had roundworms and told me I should treat with fenbendazole before releasing (I argued that it made little sense to keep her back just to treat for roundworm, which she'd likely contract once she returned to the wild anyway, but I ended up deferring to the other person's judgment). The bird's decline was marked and rapid--she started passing blood, stopped flying, was lethargic. She died in another day or two.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Links to some threads (all the same event) about a Panacur (Fenbendazole) poisoning:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/birds-dropping-dead-10546.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/vet-disagrees-10564.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/finally-some-good-news-10648.html

Pidgey


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

jenfer said:


> Bella, at least one most definitely was not. Can't say for sure about the others.
> 
> One of the ones who died was seemingly healthy and actually ready for release (she was going stir crazy). At the last moment, the rehabber who I consulted with at the time did a fecal float and discovered she had roundworms and told me I should treat with fenbendazole before releasing (I argued that it made little sense to keep her back just to treat for roundworm, which she'd likely contract once she returned to the wild anyway, but I ended up deferring to the other person's judgment). The bird's decline was marked and rapid--she started passing blood, stopped flying, was lethargic. She died in another day or two.


I am really sorry to hear that Jenfer! It must have hurt like crazy and just when she was ready to for release too.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> Links to some threads (all the same event) about a Panacur (Fenbendazole) poisoning:
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/birds-dropping-dead-10546.html
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot Pidgey! I really feel for that person losing most of his flock after worming them.

I can't find a lot of information about the oxfendazole in wormout out GEL, other than its from the same family of drugs as fenbendazole, and appears to be owned partially by the makers of fenbendazole & made in the same factory in China too.

I'm now inclined to think my deadly worming experiences have had more to do with this drug oxfendazole, than the worming itself.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Just as an update, I wormed my current rescued pigeon with Moxydectin 3 days ago. He weighs only 200 grams and he was on Spartrix and Sulfa meds (Sulfa 3) for 4 days prior to the worming. He's disturbingly light, but oddly strong and can still fly. 

He had a bit of diarrhea on the day after the worming. But his dropping improved by nightfall and he was still eating. I put electrolytes in his water.

His droppings are good again this morning, whereas the hen I was caring for last week (who was heavier than him and smaller) was passing bloody stools 3 day after being wormed.

I should also add that my hen passed a lot of large roundworms in her stools, whereas I'm not seeing these in my current pigeon's droppings. he may have a different type of worm or I haven't wormed him successfully.

Anyway I hope this helps someone!

X bella


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## Flossy (Mar 8, 2015)

pdpbison said:


> Opinions anyone - How does the 'Ivermnectin' rank as far as being easy on the Bird?
> 
> 
> As one sidelight, I suppose some good broad spectrum Antibiotics would be prudent when worming a frail Bird, as it would pre-emptively anticipate systemic infections resulting from tiny open Lesions in the Intestines, from where Worms are letting go.


Worms letting go I assume you mean tapeworm? Ivermectin doesn't treat tapeworm


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