# Free Flying Lofts - Good or Bad?



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I'm thinking of letting my birds free-fly in the neighborhood. The only predators in my area are cats. No hawks (thank G-d). I may also vaccinate for pox and pmv but my main worry is the cats.

The cats like to stalk my birds by perching themselves on top of my aviary. Sometimes at night I hear them bolting outside because a cat is on top of the aviary. Since pigeons have a tendency to lounge and feed on lawns and in gardens I'm worried that the cats will either stalk my birds in the surrounding yards or on top of my aviary. They have no fear of climbing up on my roof either.

Can anyone offer a good suggestion to deter the cats?

Some people have suggested I have a regular routine of letting them out for brief periods and calling them back in. This may not be feasible for me. I'd rather have them free during the day and let them in at night. Advantages? Disadvantages?

Many thanks,

Daniel


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

It would be best to Keep them controled. Let them out and let them trap in. Two things. The wont be loungeing around outside as some neighbors may not like it. and some cities have ordanices aginst the free flying of pigeons. Some cities have passed ordanices aginst the keeping of pigeons. Plus you wont lose as many also.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I agree with re lee. Keep that control. It's A WHOLE LOT HARDER TO GET IT BACK THAN TO HAVE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Old habits die hard. Some fanciers have an open loft but they also loose birds to predators. Our birds are not allowed to land on the ground at all. I either want them in the air or in the loft period. As far as the cats?....cats like birds. Not much you can do about that. Why would it be hard for you to only have them fly and come right in?


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

Yes, definately keep them controlled. Nobody likes pigeons all over the place roaming free to leave their stinky little bombs all over, lol. People don't appreciate pests, and pigeons lounging and nesting all over the neighborhood would be considered one.

Nick


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I wouldn't free fly -- I think the hazards are too great. Are you SURE you don't have hawks? We live in Northern CA too and didn't see those Coopers hawks until it was too late. They hide out quietly in trees and come "out of nowhere" when they see pigeons circling. 

I trained my pigeons to fly and come right back in. Sometimes they fly for quite awhile, but they don't linger in other yards and they never land on the ground. We stopped flying for the winter after losing several to hawks. There are cats in our neighborhood too, but we haven't had trouble with them. But then, we have geese in our yard, which keeps cats away.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Then there's the END factor to consider, if the contagion approaches your area...









Nice to hear from you!









--Ray


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Coopers Hawks are tricky devils. You don't know they are there, until you're missing a bird....









Then there are owls. Don't think they only hunt at night. Someone I know saw one in broad daylight last week -- 11 am. Happily enough for him, the owl was eating the Coopers Hawk that had been eyeing his birds just moments before.... LOL

And THEN, there are your neighbours. If you free fly, then the birds will start hanging out in trees, on rooftops, etc. Not all neighbours take too kindly to that. My neighbour has 15-20 bird feeders and houses in his yard, yet hates our pigeons. Go figure....


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by Lovebirds:
> *I agree with re lee. Keep that control. It's A WHOLE LOT HARDER TO GET IT BACK THAN TO HAVE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Old habits die hard. Some fanciers have an open loft but they also loose birds to predators. Our birds are not allowed to land on the ground at all. I either want them in the air or in the loft period. As far as the cats?....cats like birds. Not much you can do about that. Why would it be hard for you to only have them fly and come right in?*


The hard part is doing it regularly. 
I could only give them controlled flights once or twice a week max.

They spend all week long racing back and forth inside the aviary, harassing each other, banging up against the wall... I feel bad for them. I hate leaving them locked up all week long.










Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by Birdmom4ever:
> *I wouldn't free fly -- I think the hazards are too great. Are you SURE you don't have hawks? We live in Northern CA too and didn't see those Coopers hawks until it was too late. They hide out quietly in trees and come "out of nowhere" when they see pigeons circling.
> 
> I trained my pigeons to fly and come right back in. Sometimes they fly for quite awhile, but they don't linger in other yards and they never land on the ground. We stopped flying for the winter after losing several to hawks. There are cats in our neighborhood too, but we haven't had trouble with them. But then, we have geese in our yard, which keeps cats away. *


My problem with controlled flights are frequency; I'm not around much and the birds are locked up all day long, all week.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by raynjudy:
> *Then there's the END factor to consider, if the contagion approaches your area...
> 
> 
> ...



So far, no reports of END in the Bay Area.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by WhiteWingsCa:
> *Coopers Hawks are tricky devils. You don't know they are there, until you're missing a bird....
> 
> 
> ...


My most vocal neighbor is the one right next door - he hates the SOUND of my pigeons, says it disturbs his thinking and studying. So having them around the neighborhood would get one neighbor off my back.

I live in an area where there are mostly students and apartments. I don't think the neighbors will care about my pigeons.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I forgot to mention, I've seen only one hawk in eighteen years in my neighborhood. The day I saw it there were so many crows harassing it that it soon left.

Daniel


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good morning Daniel,
Quite the dilemma I know. On the one hand you realize the hazards of free flying, on the other you feel 'bad' they are confined. Here is a thought to ponder...
At the time I rescued Whitefeather she was about 2-3 weeks old & I was completely & I mean completely ignorant of how to care of a bird. I place her in a cage only to find her clawing at the door to be let out to fly with the others. Feeling bad that she was confined I granted her wish. She would fly during the day, come home at night. 
One evening I found her sitting on my patio in extreme distress. Ten minutes later, while lying in my lap she passed away. 
I don't know what happened, I can only guess, however, to this day, I find it hard to justify my decision.
Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Cindy, I have said it before and I will say it again: I am convinced that your decision was the right one for Whitefeather! She wasn't happy in captivity and it is not as if you set her free to fend for herself. You were always there to provide for her and she knew it and returned to you when she needed you. 

This doesn't necessarily mean that I think Daniel's pigeons should be free-flying. His location is different and as far as I know there isn't a flock that feeds naturally in his garden. I would love to be in a situation where my pigeons could fly free occasionally, but unfortunately I don't think I am and I wouldn't want to lose any of my birds to prove or disprove my point! The one pigeon that I let out for a flight never came back, and that has haunted me for two years now.

Cynthia


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by cyro51:
> *Cindy, I have said it before and I will say it again: I am convinced that your decision was the right one for Whitefeather! She wasn't happy in captivity and it is not as if you set her free to fend for herself. You were always there to provide for her and she knew it and returned to you when she needed you.
> 
> This doesn't necessarily mean that I think Daniel's pigeons should be free-flying. His location is different and as far as I know there isn't a flock that feeds naturally in his garden. I would love to be in a situation where my pigeons could fly free occasionally, but unfortunately I don't think I am and I wouldn't want to lose any of my birds to prove or disprove my point! The one pigeon that I let out for a flight never came back, and that has haunted me for two years now.
> ...


I have agonized for the idea of letting them free fly. I lost pigeons that way when I was a boy.

Mine do not seem happy being confined all the time. So, I've wondered if they would be happier, risks, shorter life and all, if they could do what they were destined to do - soar the open sky.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Cynthia,

There was one thing I forgot to mention: I think you can hang a marker or flag or something that your pigeons can see clearly from a distance; that way they are less likely to get lost.

Daniel


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I sympathize with your dilemma, Daniel. I guess the bottom line is, each person needs to decide what will work best for his/her birds, given the location, size of loft, etc. We are fortunate enough to have sufficient space for a large loft with a screened outdoor area. Most of my pigeons are quite content and show no desire to leave the loft. I think the rollers would be perfectly happy staying in and raising babies. The racing homers, however, eye the sky and "fly in place," so I know they miss flying. After several painful losses and a couple frightening near misses from hawks, I've resolved not to fly my favorite pigeons at all. It hurts too much to lose them. 

It's always a tough decision. I had a pigeon named Percy who lived in the house for 10 months after I rescued her because we didn't have a proper place to keep her. She thought I was her mate and I agonized over putting her outside once we built a loft and got other pigeons. In the end I decided she had to be a pigeon. We got her a real mate and she was happy--raised 5 beautiful babies last year. I didn't fly her because she wasn't trained and wasn't born here, and I didn't want to risk losing her. Sadly, I lost her anyway. She got out accidentally last November and I'm pretty sure a hawk picked her off. If I'd kept her in the house it wouldn't have happened. But I still think letting her be a pigeon was the right thing.

I guess you just have to weigh everything and decide what is right for you and your birds. BTW, I can't believe your neighbor complains about the sound of your birds! I guess we're blessed in that regard, 'cause our neighbors enjoy seeing the pigeons fly. (And they don't complain about the geese, who make a heck of a lot more noise than the pigeons.) Except for the lady 2 doors down who has a terrible bird phobia. But even she doesn't complain--she just goes inside when I fly them.


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## sirpigeon (Jan 25, 2002)

Unsupervised pigeons are a temptation for ignorant kids with bb guns.I keep my birds confined for their own good.If they've never had freedom they won't miss it.But in your case,when you let them out once a week,they miss being free on other days.I worry more about ignorant,cruel people than predators.As the saying goes;"better safe than sorry".


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by Scuiry:
> * My most vocal neighbor is the one right next door - he hates the SOUND of my pigeons, says it disturbs his thinking and studying. So having them around the neighborhood would get one neighbor off my back.
> 
> I live in an area where there are mostly students and apartments. I don't think the neighbors will care about my pigeons.
> ...


If you think that "around the neighbourhood" means that if you let the birds out, they are going to fly around all day, I'm afraid you're in for a bit of a shock.

Especially "old birds" (birds born last year or before) will NOT fly far from the loft. They will go out, fly about the yard area for maybe 15-30 minutes, then land on the roof, the railing, the trees, in your neighbours trees, on HIS roof, etc. And there they will sit for most of the day. They might fly into the loft for a snack, but if it's "open loft", then they'll be right back out, lounging around, and making even more noise, as they chase each other around. 

If you neighbour doesn't like them now, he'll hate them even more if you do this. Trust me, been there, done that. My neighbour doesn't mind the sounds they make -- he hates them on his tv tower and roof. We can't even loft fly our old birds, because a couple of the lazy ones will fly for 5 minutes max, then go sit on his tower. Even one or two has him freaking out, and calling us.


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by WhiteWingsCa:
> * If you think that "around the neighbourhood" means that if you let the birds out, they are going to fly around all day, I'm afraid you're in for a bit of a shock.
> 
> Especially "old birds" (birds born last year or before) will NOT fly far from the loft. They will go out, fly about the yard area for maybe 15-30 minutes, then land on the roof, the railing, the trees, in your neighbours trees, on HIS roof, etc. And there they will sit for most of the day. They might fly into the loft for a snack, but if it's "open loft", then they'll be right back out, lounging around, and making even more noise, as they chase each other around.
> ...


I've lived in suburban areas where I can visualize exactly what you're describing. I used to live in a place where that was a problem.

I now live in an urban location where there are mostly apartments, one yard and no beautiful cars









My neighbor complains about my birds being next to his back bedroom door chasing each other and banging against the fence and "cooing". He would be eternally grateful if I let them fly during the day. Believe me.

Some of my birds are VERY restless. They hate confinement so much they hang from the sides of their cages if they are not let out. These are the same ones that get territorial and chase the others around the aviary, call and are "noisy".

I've got two different groups of birds. The more restless and agitated ones I want to let fly on their own and return at night. This is what I did when I was a boy. The only hazard was the neighborhood cats eating my birds at the time. The other tame "pet" pigeons would stay inside or in separate quarters and never released.

Most of my aviary pigeons are unhappy being locked up all the time. If I can provide a haven for them so they can live out their little pigeon lives I think that would be an acceptable compromise. I know they will be exposed to more hazards free flying so the goal is to minimize them as much as possible, i.e., cats and racoons.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by Birdmom4ever:
> *I sympathize with your dilemma, Daniel. I guess the bottom line is, each person needs to decide what will work best for his/her birds, given the location, size of loft, etc. We are fortunate enough to have sufficient space for a large loft with a screened outdoor area. Most of my pigeons are quite content and show no desire to leave the loft. I think the rollers would be perfectly happy staying in and raising babies. The racing homers, however, eye the sky and "fly in place," so I know they miss flying. After several painful losses and a couple frightening near misses from hawks, I've resolved not to fly my favorite pigeons at all. It hurts too much to lose them.
> 
> It's always a tough decision. I had a pigeon named Percy who lived in the house for 10 months after I rescued her because we didn't have a proper place to keep her. She thought I was her mate and I agonized over putting her outside once we built a loft and got other pigeons. In the end I decided she had to be a pigeon. We got her a real mate and she was happy--raised 5 beautiful babies last year. I didn't fly her because she wasn't trained and wasn't born here, and I didn't want to risk losing her. Sadly, I lost her anyway. She got out accidentally last November and I'm pretty sure a hawk picked her off. If I'd kept her in the house it wouldn't have happened. But I still think letting her be a pigeon was the right thing.
> ...


Dear Birdmom:

It is partly a question of letting them be pigeons. I have some pet pigeons that I will never let free fly. They are bonded to me and have no outdoor skills, no desire to be anything else but my friend or acquaintance. The others hate my guts. I'm just their food source and they are glad when I leave the aviary. I think they would be happier soaring the open sky and being the feral pigeons from which they were bred.

But they may also learn to be "homing pigeons". That was my childhood dream. I don't care about racing pigeons but I am fascinated with the homing instinct. When I was a boy I could release a pigeon miles away and it would be home before me. So maybe a childhood dream could be fulfilled at last.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I am getting closer to initating this project. The first item on the list is to develop a feeding routine. Next to expand the aviary on the east side. This may take a few weeks. Third is to build a flight landing for them to go in and out. Finally, vaccinations. My vet is ordering all the vaccines for me.

My last concern is for birds getting lost. I'm bracing myself for the eventuality that some of them will wander away and never come home. I know many escaped pigeons survive and thrive in the urban wild but some do not. What are the chances of survival for an escaped pigeon? Are there statistics on this? I know racing stock pigeons have about a 2% percent survival rate. Is that true for all domestic-raised pigeons?

Daniel


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Daniel, the first time I free flew my babies I lost several for a few days & then all but one made it home after 5 days.

I have not flown them yet this year, I keep them in in winter because of hawks, but will probably be setting them out around tax time when the predators are less likely to prey on them.

I do have two that I would be devastated to lose, so I may be removing them from the free flyers. I think I lost 5 birds last year, most were younger birds on their first flight, others were birds that did not come back into the loft at night for lockdown & I believe they were taken by owls . I am sure it was my fault for not training them right. I am now in the process of trying to get thier schedule set for evening feedings so they will all return for dinner.

Mine are lazy flyers, some only fly a couple laps before they return, other will fly ten to fifteen minutes tops. I have roller/tumbler mixes.

I know I haven't been around much this year, but occasionally poke my head in and had some time today.

Barb


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Young birds should be set out to see the sky and short flying times befor they get strong in the wing. Or they will fly further away befor they get used to where home is. Thats the mistake several people make when not letting the young out at the proper age. Also young birds do hit power lines chip there keel break awing neck and thats the reason some do not makeit back to the loft also. You can make a pen that sits on the landing board to let them get used to trapping and the sky above the loft. Never feed them befor letting them out that makes them lazy and linger on the loft. A tennis ball is good to chunk them if they land else where. But flying them hungry and shaking the feed can to call them back in sets a habit for them.


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Daniel,

Someone once gave me advice and I thought I'd pass it on to you. I'm thinking if you are worried your pigeons won't come back, then maybe you ought to prepare them a little for the wild world. 

I was advised to get a floor mat that looks like grass. Feed them on that. They will learn to peck through the plastic(grass) to find their food instead of looking for a dish for food. If you do that with them, then if they get lost at least they'll have a little more survival knowledge. 

I know you dread this how ordeal, but you know, you've got to do what you got to do. 

I think you are planning very well. Keep up the good, hard work.

Julie )

[This message has been edited by turkey (edited March 25, 2003).]


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## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Daniel,

I think everyone would like to have their birds have the freedom you so desire. That would be the perfect world. But we aren't in a perfect world, doesn't exsist.

You will eventually loose everything you have to unforseen circomestances. I do as Lovebirds mentioned "they either fly or their in the loft and never let them on the ground". They can get injured or worse yet killed by a cat. They will most likely die when even scratched by a cat, although I have doctored a few back to health. But only when I witnessed the attack. If your not available to observe your pigeons, how will you know what the problem might be? I certainly would have never thought of looking for a scratch if I hadn't witnessed the assult on my bird. That's one reason they aren't allowed on the ground.

The other is pesticides or fertilizers. If they start nosing around and pecking off lawns and out of gardens, it's by-by birdie. Thoughs snail pellets ect. look pritty inviting to a curious pigeon out for a free meal.

Another to consider is droppings from thoughs wild birds that are everywhere doing the same thing your birds will be doing. You exibit concern and knowledge of the importance to vaccinate. That's very commendable and will help but is not a cure all. The birds will be pecking around with or after these little wild ones and most likely either consuming or walking in the droppings they leave behind. I would be concerned what they may bring home with them after their day romping around town. 

I don't think anyone can say for sure how their neighbors will react untill they are tested. That's where the BB gun may be used in their own way of eradicating a potential nuisence. Not everyone loves these wonderful bundle of feathers as we pigeon people do. They visualize spots on their cars, old or new, mounds or fertilizer on their roofs, and a nesting pair in their atic, over hangs of their houses or in the rain gutters that they'll be clearing out before winter rains come. People are funny when it comes to our birds. They tolerate them in the park, but not on their property. Even appartment buildings have owners and if they think your birds are a potential problem to their investment, your birds will be gone. I personally trapped pigeons for a landlord out of Colorado. I live in Calif. as you do.

He got my name from a friend of his. He wanted to see pictures of dead pigeons and then he would compensate me for my effort. I talked him into letting me find homes for the birds and he agreed. The manager of his building verified the trapping. I got 12 birds off his property. He was happy. The birds got homes. I was happy. The neighboring tenants acknowledged their pleasure that these "rats with wings" were gone.

Your best bet is like re lee and Nick confirmed, you must have control of your pigeons. 

Everyone that commented in this post has shared stories and experiances they have had and given some worthy advise to follow.

I have had to leave the sport of pigeon racing. A hobby that has thrilled me like none other I have ever had. The knowledge of health, which we'll never have enough of, the breeding and preparing of a race team is an on-going challenge that amazed me every year. The accomplishments and the failures was something not always learned from a book. The time it took to achieve all these tasks was consuming and that's what I ran out of, time. I can and do love all pigeons, doesn't matter their breed. I chose racing pigeons 'cause when I was a young boy I wanted to race pigeons but could not afford the hobby. So I had a variety of pigeons and loved them as much as any racing pigeon. I had to realize that my pigeons need more attention than I can give them right now, a very tough call but it has to be this way. I could keep them and feed them once in a while and maybe clean their lofts from time to time, but is this right for the birds, no. I have adopted most of them out to people I believe have more time than I and will take very good care of them. It wasn't easy, but neither would watching the demise of my freinds be easy and I would hate myself if I let this happen to them. 

Think about it Daniel. Sorry for the lengthy response. 

Steve


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