# Pigeon with a broken wing



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

After month of trying to catch a pigeon with a broken wing, I finally caught him today. 
His right wing is broken and swollen. He's missing one toe. What should I do now??


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Why did it take you so long to catch the pigeon? Is he able to fly?
Can you post a pic of the bird?
For now keep the bird warm and offer water and food. See how he does during the day and let us know and we take it from there.

Reti


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I tried to catch him many times, but he somehow always managed to fly away to somebody's window. 

http://img409.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=140920101534.jpg


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, glad you were finally able to catch him. As a result of the birds in my coop not being free flown, I don't have a great deal of experience with breaks. I do know that breaks in birds do start to set heal pretty quickly, so it's best to get them looked after promptly. After at least 4 weeks, I am sure a callus has formed at the break and has started to calcify, so you taking this bird to a vet for an x-ray, as you mentioned in your other thread, will be the best place to start, as at this point it is beyond point of simply wrapping it to set it, to allow it to heal. Please keep us updated and good luck.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 


Not likely anything can be done for her at this point, other than to have them under observation, determine their health, and, allow them some easy going Rest and Relaxation and good chow.


It is also possible that by now, by continueing to Fly, they are preventing the wing from becoming 'frozen', and, may eventually have a permenent condition not much worse, or even a little better than now, by continueing to use the Wing in earnest...so, kind of a judgement call as for whether they should be kept not flying, or, allowed to fly all they like indoors, at this point.


Looks like a still quite young adult to me...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

When discussing broken bones with my vet I did ask about breaks that had not been set that had healed in an improper position. He said depending on where the break is and how it has set up, there is a chance that the an experienced vet could re-break the bone and re-set it properly, using a pin if need be. The thing is that this is not alway an option, but it still may just be worthwhile getting an x-ray to see what the options are for this little guy.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

We're getting an x ray today, but I'm not still quite sure, but it seems that she is sick!!!! Omg!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> We're getting an x ray today, but I'm not still quite sure, but it seems that she is sick!!!! Omg!


What are the indications she is sick, what symptoms (post a photo of her droppings if you can)? If they are the same as the other bird, and she is not critical, see if you can hold off on starting her on any meds, as they will interfere with possible tests and see my post in your other thread about having the vet help with tests to establish an infecting pathogen. If she is very ill with similar symptoms to your other bird, and feel she can't wait, start her on the Chloramphenicol as well for now and let the vet know you did this.

Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He stopped eating, became lethargic, etc.

Poop is small, green, slimy.

I put him on chloramphenicol, metoclopramide, cisapride, gave him saline sub q. The problem is that there are seeds he ate this morning in his crop.

We've been to the vet for an x ray, diagnosis is osteomielitis. He said we should try and fix it with antibiotics, but if that doesn't succeed, that the operation is the only solution because new bone mass started to grow where a cat had bitten him.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the update and taking this bird in to the vet. Could you please let us know what drugs you vet is planning to use to treat the osteomyelitis. Also, did you get a chance to speak to him about your concerns with salmonella?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

this vet is primarily an orthopedic surgeon (that's why I took the pigeon for an x ray to him), he is not very much familiar with the birds. 

He said he needed to check what antibiotic I should use for osteomyelitis, he wasn't sure. Do you have any idea??

But the bigger problem now is his general condition, he is very very sick, he doesn't poop, he stopped digesting, I think I need to take him to the vet so he can empty his crop surgically, as he did with a squab I rescued a couple of months ago. 

Please, any suggestions??????!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I would recommend Clindamycin 100-150mg/kg q24h, once a day, in combination with either Baytril 20mg/kg q24h or Bactrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) 50mg/kg q12h, twice a day, for the osteomyelitis. With the GI digestion troubles, when these issues are suspected at all with any sick bird, the first thing that should be done is that all solid food should be pulled from the cage and they should be tubed feed. This could mean starting with something as thin as dextrose/glucose water for energy to start and progressing up through more fortifying and thicker formulas as meds and time help improve their condition, then back to solid food. If your vet has experience, he may be able to just flush the crop and "milk" the contents out, this does carry some risks if a person is unfamiliar with the techniques of doing this, or could be done surgically, as you mentioned you have done before, where a small incision is made, the contents flushed out and the bird stitched up.

If nothing is passing make sure you continue with the Sub-Q fluids 8-10mL twice a day to help prevent dehydration, until to you get the GI issues resolved enough for things to start to pass. Injectable antibiotics and Reglan (metocloprimide) may be of help as well right now. Could need some Nystatin as well to help with his crop issues, does his breath smell sour?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you very much. I'm going to buy Clindamycin tomorrow. 

As to GI troubles, I'm giving him sub q liquids, but he is still lethargic, if the situation doesn't improve in a couple of hours, I will have to take him to the vet's for the procedure (it's 22:30 here in Belgrade, so I'm hoping that the same vet who has done this procedure on my other pigeon would be available and awake). The pigeon should be already better, but I don't see improvement in his condition and it's been more than 12 hours since I started him on Chloramphenicol. He pooped maybe 6 times in the past 6 hours, and the droppings were very small.

What should I do?? To wait for a day or to take him tonight to empty his crop?

I pulled all the seeds, but I haven't tube fed him yet, I have been waiting for his crop to empty. 

I smelled the dropping and the poop, it doesn't smell sour, I have Nystatin so I can give it to him.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, what is his weight like, can you post a photo of his droppings, is his crop totally not moving or is it just very slow, what does his crop fill like, how full is it? Please pull the water as well from his cage and do not tube feed him anything just yet and hold off on the Nystatin as well for now.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I will take photo of the droppings. I don't know about his crop, he poops once every hour. 
He doesn't want to drink, eat...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Gently feel his crop area, is it full and squishy, like a balloon 3/4 full with water, lots of fluid inside, or is it relatively empty, but you can feel some contents/seeds in there. If you are giving him Sub-Q fluids he may be OK a day or two, especially if his weight is not too bad, that's why I asked about his weight. Please go though the history a bit, was he eating then stopped, or has never really eaten much, was doing OK then became worse, if so, when and did he ever come in contact with your other ill bird. If you don't know about his crop, please explain what leads you to believe his crop needs flushed/emptied?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I can feel the seeds in his crop and water, it's almost completely full.

he's thin, but not completely thin. 

He was eating yesterday, and today he stopped eating, and the crop is still not empty. I gave him liquid sub q but he is still lethargic, which led me to start thinking that his crop needs to get emptied


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, if his crop is still this full over a day, then I he will need to have his crop emptied, I would do this as soon as you can. If we can get his crop well flushed and then started on appropriate meds and liquid nutrition, we will be making steps in the right direction for him.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Is it possible that his body is not able to pull the liquid I gave his sub q, because I can't still see the saline under his skin, not in the same place (the place where the leg and his body meet), but under the skin on the body??

what type of anesthesia the vet should give him??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, it takes some time for the body to absorb Sub-Q fluids, so you will see the bubble under the skin for a while. See if you can also locate some soy based baby formula like this: http://www.diapers.com/Product/Prod...&cm_mmc=cse-_-yahoosearchsubmit-_-null-_-null , this is canned but it also comes in a powdered form. Please do not start him right away on Kaytee, but start with some of glucose water 5-7cc (1 teaspoon of glucose in 3oz water to make). 

It would be best if the crop could be flushed without sedating/anesthetizing this bird, does your vet know how to flush a bird's crop, by "milking" it instead of making an incision?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I don't think he knows how to do that, but now I'm definitaly sure that it has to be done, but how??? I'm afraid he's going to aspirate if he starts pulling seeds from the crop to the beak


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I don't think he knows how to do that, but now I'm definitely sure that it has to be done, but how??? I'm afraid he's going to aspirate if he starts pulling seeds from the crop to the beak


Eternal, if this is the same vet as before he should do the same as before, but please ask if he knows how, as it's not a hard procedure and it does not entail pulling up seeds from the crop as you may imagine. If your vet does needs to put this bird under he should use Isoflurane and the bird should be put under as very lightly as possible below the plane of anesthesia, still should be very slightly responsive to stimulus. Your vet really is the one to advise you on all of this.

Best to get a shot of Baytril, 20mg/kg IM and a shot of Metocloprimide, 0.30mg/kg IM as well.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

the crop emptied itself, finally. I'm going to continue with chloramphenicol, metoclopramide and cisapride, and rehydrating solution, and see. he's still lethargic and sleepy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> the crop emptied itself, finally. I'm going to continue with chloramphenicol, metoclopramide and cisapride, and rehydrating solution, and see. he's still lethargic and sleepy


There are times when Sub-Q fluids are enough to get a stalled GI tract moving again, glad the crop emptied. Please, no seeds or solid food, as mentioned, for some time, start with the sugar water (5-7mL) to get some energy into him, he will need this energy to get his digestive system working in a more proper way, give the same amount again after a few hours (once the first amount has emptied from the crop). Once you see him producing a decent amount wet droppings, you can feed him some thin Kaytee (5-7mL). By now you must know what Kaytee looks like when it comes out the back end, so before feeding again, make sure you see he has digested the Kaytee and passed it. Then for the first few days, keep the Kaytee thin and feedings small, feeding as his crop empties. The rest I think you know how to do, in terms of balancing meds, and tube feeding, any questions please ask.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I was thinking it may be worthwhile running a 4-5 day course of Metronidazole on this birds as well (50mg/kg q12h), on the chance that there may be some internal canker, to be on the safe side.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

thank you, I've aready have, I gave it to her last night in the moment of desperation and I'm going to continue. The pigeon started to eat, she is more alert (now I think it might be a hen), that water under her skin I mentioned before dissapeared, but there still isn't much poop. I hand fed her 8 hours ago.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, when you say she has started to eat, does this mean that you are letting her have access to solid food, as at this point I really don't think this is a good idea and she should be tube feed for at least a few days for the meds to do their job, so she does not get backed up again. This bird is in your care and any final decisions on what is done and not done for her is in your hands, but there is a generally established way to start them back to solids, so that there are no setbacks and IMHO, best to follow them.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


Please listen to Karyn in earnest...she has spent a lot of time helping you, and she knows what she is talking about.

Many of these steps and stages have to be done correctly and in the right order, or new problems end up being created to add to the on-going ones.



Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

No, she is not eating the seeds, I just gave her one two seeds to see if she is more interested in food. 

Now I have other problem, the young pigeon I picked up yesterday has worms, I only have fenbendazole, can I give it to him?? I have Chevita's Ascapilla, I think one capsule has 8 mg of fenbendazole.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, OK, you were just testing. With the Fenbendazole (Panacur), the dosing with this needs to be more precise than other de-wormers, I know the capsule already has a set dose, 8mg, but if the bird is light, might need to open the capsule and adjust. What is the weight of the bird. There are few ways to dose this med in the desk book I have. It can be dosed over a few days or also dosed once at 25mg/kg and then dosed again in 10-14 days, so you will have enough time to get more de-wormer, pehaps Ivermectin, Moxidectin or Pyrantel Pamoate for the second dose.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The pigeons with worms has pigeon pox too. What now?? He has them on his legs, a couple of them, but I suppose this is just beginning


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

My goodness, when it rains, it pours . Isolate this bird immediately, as you may know, pox is very contagious. Be very careful with dishes, cleaning cages or handling this bird, then another before washing hands VERY well, just always be aware when treating/medicating/feeding that anything that touches this bird needs to be thouroughly disinfected with a bleach solution. You will need to use 1:9 bleach/water (1 part household bleach, 9 parts water) bleach solution to disinfect, so anything else like dishes, cages perches and so on he comes in contact with for later use, needs disinfected as well, be careful of fumes. For the pox, do not burst an blisters just apply a bit of Betadine or iodine to them to help them dry up. Since pox is a virus there are no meds for direct treatment, it will pass in a number of weeks and the bird should have immunity for life against catching it again.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I can't believe what I'm about to write, I really can't believe it happened, it seems like I'm cursed or something.

Three of my rescued pigeons were standing on the window, and I put a small plastic bottle so that the window cannot close, but there was some strong wind and he pulled the window so that the plastic bottle fell down and the window closed because of the wind and it broke both legs on the pigeon that has ostepmyolitis on his wing. I really can't describe the state that I'm in, there are no words to describe how I feel right now. 

There is open wound injury on the right leg, and even one broken bone is is coming out of the flesh. The injury on the second leg is smaller, but the leg is still broken. 

It's 3 am here now, at 11 am we're going for an x ray. 

How could this happened??? and after so many bad things that happened to me regarding the pigeons in the last couple of days.

Any advice??? Please?? What do you think about surgery?? I called the vet, the orthopedic surgeon I was talking about, he said he has to see an x ray, but he wasn't optimistic. Please help me, has anyone had a pigeon with a broken leg that underwent surgery???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

This is very sad news to hear, I am so sorry this poor pigeon, and you, have to go through this ordeal. I wish I had an answer to your question, why this happened, but I don't, sometimes it's just plain bad luck, I don't know how you could have foreseen the wind would suddenly gust and blow the window shut.

With the legs, I have only had one bird that ever broke a leg it was a low break and the bird end up spending a number of weeks in a sling, but in the end it healed just fine and she ended up after a period of time with no limp at all and you would never know the leg was ever broken. The compound fracture on the one leg (bone breaking through the skin), I think if immobilized and set right (may need a pin) there may be a chance for a good healing to take place. I don't know what your final decision will be for this poor guy, but with two broken legs, a sling may be the way to go if the vet says there is a chance for him.

Good luck tomorrow,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have sometimes had Pigeons with both Legs broken...


Carefully made and fitted Splints, and, a 'Sling' is pretty well the only option, other than arranging a padded platform with a padded hole through which the Splinted Legs can dangle for a few weeks.


Either way, they need constant looking after, or they fuss or fidget and get the arrangement messed up.


We all have periods when it seems the conditions of things drift a little out-of-Harmony.


Just take a deep breath, go slow, and try and eat well and get enough rest.


Bone-through-skin, usually, set and stabalize the Leg, with a padded Splint...apply some topical antibiotic before binding...and all is well. 

An oral systemic Antibiotic may also be added to the regimen.


Splints need to be shaped according to the location of the break.


I make them using the handles of Plastic Spoons or Forks, cutting these to the length I want, bending them into a slight "L" shape over a Cigarette Lighter, using the trough or flute or hollow aspect of the Handle to go against the Leg.
..adding thin pddeing for all to fit well.


It is kind of an Art to get things right with broken Legs, so the Splint is both comfortable and secure and able to keep the Leg in a correct alignment and stability.


Vets are usually terrible at it, unfortunately.


Just think about it logically, analysing what the Splint has to do...overbending a Splint to fit an elbow, so the bend has a slightly larger area behind it than having a mere plain bend, etc...



Thin paper Tape to bind, so all can come off easy later...


Bits of folded Toilet Paper or Paper towel for padding as needed...


Etc...


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

thank you, and how should all this be done?? under anesthesia??

I have to wait 4 more hours to go and see the vet, I told you he is surgeon, and he would operate, don't know how, he told me that the surgery has to be done in the next 2 days, but the question is will he survive it??

I've found interesting article about fractures
http://www.fourthcrossingwildlife.com/FracturesinBirds_redirect.htm

I'm really scared because this is an open wound and this bones is broken and breaking through the skin.

I feel terrible, really teribble, I really wanted the best for this guy, took him to a vet that is a specialist for the fractures and now this happened, and what should I do in this situation?? Let him operate on the pigeon or what??


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dobato said:


> You will need to use 1:9 bleach/water (1 part water, 9 parts household bleach) bleach solution to disinfect
> 
> Karyn


Just want to avoid any confusion here .. I think Karyn is saying to use a 10 % bleach solution .. that would be _1 part bleach and 9 parts water_. 

Please post back to confirm ..

Thanks!

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Eternal,

I am so very sorry for these latest serious complications. I don't think any of us can truly say what you should do as we don't have the bird to look at and assess. I kinda think you are going to have to use every bit of common sense and compassion that you have and listen to what the vet has to say. You may have to make a very difficult decision, or you may decide to go for surgery or if we're lucky then just splinting. I truly do feel for you. Please let us know how it goes and what happens.

Terry


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He can't stand at all, is this normal for fractures?? And will he be able to recover if he can't use any leg?????? He even ate a little.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

TAWhatley said:


> Just want to avoid any confusion here .. I think Karyn is saying to use a 10 % bleach solution .. that would be _1 part bleach and 9 parts water_.
> 
> Please post back to confirm ..
> 
> ...


There are different bleach solutions on the market, Domestos is 4.8%, Clorox is 5,25%, which means they have 4.8% and 5.25% of the disinfectant (sodium hypochlorite). And Karyn says I should dilute this bleach solutions with water, i.e. I should mix 1 part Domestos or Clorox with 9 part of water.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anaesthesia is not appropriate for setting and splinting a broken Leg, no matter how broken it is.


The trouble with a lot of this stuff eternal, is it really takes a lot of experience and quality of judgement, and a patient often methodical process, with alert and sensitive powers of observation, to do well...whether managing a recovery from illness, or, injury.


Few Vets have either.

The Article has many good things to be aware of or to distinguish, but, is also presuming that poor quality work is somehow a basis of statistical outcome, rather than impressing upon the reader that a good outcome depends on good quality of work, as well.


May superficial prognosis presume mediocre or worse efforts and skill of the Vet, instead of a more thorough and honest over-view.

Anyway...


It all depends on the actual details of the injury or illness, and how these are managed and understood and deal with.


Generally, Broken Legs have a good outcome when attended to properly.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

eternal said:


> He can't stand at all, is this normal for fractures?? And will he be able to recover if he can't use any leg?????? He even ate a little.


Well, it depends on the fracture. Given your description, I'm not surprised that the bird can't stand. 

If the bird ends up without the full use of at least one leg or decent use of both legs, then I would suggest euthanasia. I've tried a couple of times to give a decent life to birds that could not use either leg. These were extreme splay cases. It is a very, very difficult thing to do for both the bird and the caretaker. I had a bird named Bandit for about three years that actually did well without the use of her legs, but it was a real challenge for both of us. If I had to make that decision again today, I would have the bird euthanised.

Someone brought a little ringneck dove by today for me to look at. It had one extremely splayed leg, was unable to stand, and was tearing up its chest, belly, and wings scrabbling around. The only possible fixes were to attempt a corrective surgery on the splayed leg, amputate the splayed leg, or euthanise. In this case, the bird wasn't being relinquished to me, so the owner has to make the decision. I told her I would vote for amputation of the splayed leg. It's her decision in the end, and I suspect the little dove will be euthanised.

I apologize for rambling here. I'm sure it hasn't really helped.

Just give some real careful and hard thought to all the options and make the best decision you can for both the bird and yourself.

Bless you, and good luck tomorrow!

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

eternal said:


> There are different bleach solutions on the market, Domestos is 4.8%, Clorox is 5,25%, which means they have 4.8% and 5.25% of the disinfectant (sodium hypochlorite). And Karyn says I should dilute this bleach solutions with water, i.e. I should mix 1 part Domestos or Clorox with 9 part of water.


Yep .. 1 part bleach and 9 parts water. I'm just certain that Karyn mis-typed in her post and meant a 10% bleach solution as opposed to a 90% one.

Terry


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Phil, you think that even with a bone that sticks out of the flesh the surgery won't be needed?? When does a leg fracture require surgery??

Will it hurt him if he had this done without surgery?? It's an open flesh wound we're talking about??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal said:


> He can't stand at all, is this normal for fractures?? And will he be able to recover if he can't use any leg?????? He even ate a little.



I a Leg is broken, the Bird will not be able to stand on it.


Depending on the break, if correctly dealt with and stabalized/splinted, there will be a good outcome, and the Leg will be used in a normal manner again.


For now, if you are not able to do the procedure for the Leg yourself, then at least make a loosely rolled small Towel bent into a "U" - or stack two of them - for the Bird to lay in as best they can.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Now I can't stop crying, this bird survived with one wing for the whole two months, and now he's going to die because of me and a stupid window.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal said:


> Phil, you think that even with a bone that sticks out of the flesh the surgery won't be needed?? When does a leg fracture require surgery??
> 
> Will it hurt him if he had this done without surgery?? It's an open flesh wound we're talking about??



I have had quite a few who had the broken Bone sticking out.


I correct the condition, apply a topical antiobiotic, and splint as described.


This usually requires some preliminary talking with the Bird, and explaining things to them, since I am dealing with Wild Birds who do not know me.

I have to have the Bird's willingness and co-operation...since I am by myself here and have no one to hold a Bird for me to do the tedious procedures.


If Sutures are needed, I go to my Vet for the Sutures...and we do the Leg Splinting together or he does it and I re-do it one I get home.


Usually I simply tape things in a way where the open area of the skin will readily mend once all is splinted.


What your Bird needs will depend on the details of the actual Legs, and it is hard to guess or generalize...especially with no images to see.


Anaesthesia is NOT used for any care or interest about 
'pain', it is used to make a limp, motionless, non-resisting and pliant patient who will not wiggle or fuss.


I have to do these things with the Bird's co-operation with them laying on my Lap on their back or side.

They are happy to be co-operative and let me do the things which need to be done to set the Leg, and they do not protest or resent the procedure.

Forget about the pain part...it already hurts as much or more than it is going to if being set and splinted.

Once set and splinted, it will hurt less and begin healing.


With most vets, the use of a global anaesthesia will kill or damage the Bird anyway.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

eternal said:


> Now I can't stop crying, this bird survived with one wing for the whole two months, and now he's going to die because of me and a stupid window.


He's not going to die, Eternal, unless you make the decision to euthanize. Like I said, you have to really have yourself all together for the vet visit and be in a position to make the best decision for both the bird and yourself.

As Phil has posted, it IS possible to put the bone back in place even if it's sticking out of the skin and splint it without surgery. There would likely be antibiotics that need to be given, but that's easy. Whether the vet feels this is an option is not known at this point.

There ARE options for this bird .. I'm just asking you to have those options clear in your head when you are at the vet and to listen to what the vet says. I ASSume you know and trust this vet. If that is not the case, then it's all the more important that you understand what the options are.

Terry


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

And once the legs are set, how is he supposed to lie down? I'm going for an x ray and see what the vet is going to say, and I'm going to post pictures of x rays here


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

eternal said:


> And once the legs are set, how is he supposed to lie down? I'm going for an x ray and see what the vet is going to say, and I'm going to post pictures of x rays here


He probably doesn't lie down but has to be either suspended in a sling or placed in a towel doughnut that is big/high enough to let the legs dangle .. both can be done. 

I think you've made a good decision about starting with the xrays and listening to the vet.

I'll look forward to seeing what you've found out tomorrow. I've gotta sign off for tonight.

Terry


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Just want to avoid any confusion here .. I think Karyn is saying to use a 10 % bleach solution .. that would be _1 part bleach and 9 parts water_.
> 
> Please post back to confirm ..
> 
> ...


Terry thanks for the catch, don't know how I didn't catch this myself when I re-read my post for spelling. Yes, as Terry corrects, 1 part bleach and 9 parts water. I went over it again with Eternal in this post form Friday:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507634&postcount=52

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


Please go back a few pages and read the Posts.


A Sling which allows the Legs to dangle through, or a small padded platform with a padded opening for the Legs to danlge through, either of these arranged in a Cage...and constant monitoring to manage and attend to or adjust things for the Bird's comfort.


A very good Sling may be made from an old Cotton 'Tee-Shirt' or similar fabric which is porous and a little stretchy so it 'breathes' and comforms well...two holes are cut for the Legs to dangle through so they will be comfortable and not constricted, so the holes have to be placed correctly...rear of the Sling allows poops to be made over the end, so the rear part has to be folded to be ending at the right place for this...


I suspend the Sling using 'Bull Dog Clips', clipped to the Fabric, with String from the Cage's upper area or top.


Sling looks a little like when the 'Stork' brings a Baby...


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/sling_bird_-_july/


I will have it open like a 'Hammock', or closed like a 'Stork Baby', depending on how the Pigeon is liking it....so one has to stay on it constantly and fuss or adjust or change things for the Bid to be comfortable, or they will fidgte themselves out of it.


Seed and Water Bowls set up to be within easy Beak reach.


Broken Legs ( usually just one, but sometimes both Legs ) are a fairly common occurence to anyone involved in rescue-rehab...

Probably not so common to Vets.

Insist on thin 'Micropore' or similar Tape, and do not let the Vet use the self-adhesive rubbery 'Vet Wrap' junk they always want to use...it is almost impossible to remove later and is horrid...and generally is also applied much too tightly and makes for a bad outcome.


A real Splint, made to fit the occasion, padded correctly, Taped on and around just 'so', and not too tight, with an easy to remove later type of Tape, is best.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, here are two threads to read, for more information on slings and broken legs, Phil and I can help you with a sling set up and design.

Also, I agree with Phil to avoid full anesthesia if at all possible, the only reason I see him having to operate is to pin the leg and this may not be necessary, the bone might be able to be reinserted under the skin, positioned and then set. If the bone is sticking out of the skin, please cover it with some Neosporin ointment, KY Gel, or other ointment for now, you must not allow the bone end to dry out. Also, instead of full anesthesia, see if your vet can give diazapam (Valium) for sedation IM (breast muscle) the dose would be 2mg/kg IM, this will bring pretty deep sedation. Also for pain Meloxicam Metacam (Metacam) 0.05mg once a day.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/two-broken-legs-16274.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/where-are-the-sling-instructions-21944.html

In all truth, I have lost a good deal of confidence in the vets in your area after the one gave an IM injection into the leg of your other bird, so take your time and think through whatever you are told, to make sure it makes sense.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I don't have these things, what else can I use???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I don't have these things, what else can I use???


Please clarify, what things?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

neosporin and that gel


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

What do you use as an ointment on cuts/wounds?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

metacam is given orally??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

nithing till i see the vet, but i was planning to buy rivanol ointment as antiseptic


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> metacam is given orally??


Yes, orally. What thick glycerin based hand cream do you have around the house? No ointment of any kind at all?

You can also wrap the area where the bone comes out with gauze roll or even paper towel and then tape around it. Then keep the gauze/paper towel soaked with sterile saline. You can make saline by boiling 8oz (250mL) of water and adding 1 teaspoon of salt to the water, take a bit out to quickly cool and soak bandage.

After you do this, read the links I posted up for you.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Now I called the other vet, he told me that if both legs are broken that the chances of recovery are really really small because he can't stand at all.

Please, is this true??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, of course he can't stand, he has BROKEN LEGS. The legs need stabilized and set and then he needs set up in a sling for 3-4 weeks or so. Please read the threads, wrap the bone in bandage and soak with saline.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I wraped it, I had saline. I'm reading threads now, I saw Phil;s sling, but I don't see that splint on any leg??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Get him in a high donut set up like this to get weight off his legs and make him as comfortable as possible: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6 .

I can see splints in both the Braveheart sling and in the link Terry provided inside the second link I just provided, here it is again, go to the fifth post, click photo to enlarge.

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536

This bird was supposed to be on Clindamycin and either Baytril or Bactrim for an exisiting bone infection, if he were already on these meds, this would be good, as there will be concerns for bone infection with the compound fracture. If he is not on these meds, he should get started on at least the Baytril or Bactrim, until Clindamycin can be added. Also, Eternal, the must be a vet in your area who can set these legs properly, as a thought, please find a link to some pigeon relevant information in your area, if you could speak to some fanciers from these sites, perhaps they can help you will a decent vet.

http://www.savezodgajivacapismonosa.org.rs/
http://www.sokolovicgolubovi.com/index.html
http://www.rolerklubsrbije.com/roler klub srbije en/kalendar utakmica 2006.htm
http://www.jadranko.se/england/history.htm (just names at the bottom, but perhaps you can track a few down)

Good luck,

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

We came back from the vet. The leg where a bone is sticking is broken in the joint, the other one in the place where are the fingers. 

The surgery has to be performed because of the leg that is broken in the joint, the vet has to think about it because there would be pressure if a bird would stand and it would broke the implants, but I showed him the splint and he said he needs to think about it and that I should call him tomorrow.

I can't stop crying, it's like the worst nightmare


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I know you will do absolutely all you can for this little guy and make the right decision for him. In the mean time do see if you can use the links I posted in your area to see if there is any way you can find a good pigeon vet in your area, if not for now, then future use. Also, make sure he is comfortable in the donut, don't know if the vet did anything or gave you anything, but don't let the bone dry out and he should be on antibiotics and Metacam for pain management, if you need help with the Metacam, let me know.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I put rivanol on his wounds, is it ok? It's an antiseptic.

http://translate.google.com/transla...://www.vetzavodzemun.com/producthem.php?id=39

I think he is comfortable in the donut, he's sleeping now, he ate. 

Do you think that splint works?? Are they comfortable in it?? Are there any complications?? Why did Phil's pigeon die?? 
What do you think about surgery?? I read somewhere that if the fracture is in the joing, the surgery must be performed.

Here in Serbia there are maybe 3 vets that can do this kind of surgery, and that actually knows something about bones. This vet is one of those three.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, please do not use this on his wounds, rinse it off, as I have no idea how this product will impact on the bone or tissue in terms of healing. It is Ethacridine lactate derived from Acridine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethacridine_lactate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acridine

Please just wash wound with warm saline, and have him on antibiotics and continue to apply saline to bandage to keep it moist (moist is important).

Some take to being in a sling better than others, they are comfortable to a point, less pain, as no direct pressure is on the legs, but after a while they want to come out and you just have to ignore this. As I said, I had a bird that was splinted and in a sling, her break, in time, healed perfectly. Still would not hurt to make inquires, as perhaps there are a few good vets that you are unaware of.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I called several vets, two of them are very good surgeons with specialisation in orthopedics, they told me that rivanol is good for the wound to keep it wet, and that it would do same for the bone.

Karyn, trust me when I say that these 3 veterinarians are the only surgeons that can operate on a pigeon. 

I know about two cases of the broken bones (a pigeon and a seagull, both with broken wings) that this vet successfully operated and the birds were released. 

This doesn't really mean much for the case of this pigeon, but it means something. I'm really scared if he would even survive the surgery, but what are the options??? I suppose one leg can be fixed without surgery, but I was told that the one that has broken joint requires surgery.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I called several vets, two of them are very good surgeons with specialisation in orthopedics, they told me that rivanol is good for the wound to keep it wet, and that it would do same for the bone.
> 
> Karyn, trust me when I say that these 3 veterinarians are the only surgeons that can operate on a pigeon.
> 
> ...


Eternal, as long as you got the OK to use the Rivanol, then you can use it, I did not know this antiseptic, so I was hesitant to tell you to use it without knowing just how it will react on the bone/wound.

Just make sure, you emphasize, when/if the bird is anesthetized, that your request is that he be put under the plane of anesthesia a lightly as possible, you do not want deep anesthesia for this bird, tell them. Also tell them every so often you still want the Isoflurane turned down so that he starts to become slightly responsive to stimulus and then the Isoflurane turned back up again a bit, repeating this during the whole procedure, make sure they understand this.

Also, when looking for the links I gave you, I came to realize pigeons racing and fanciers are big in your country, I still don't think it would hurt to know who the top fanciers and breeders take their birds to when they need a vet.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

They don't take their birds to vet, trust me, the pigeon breeders here are very primitive, to say the least. They don't even use probiotics, they cut back their expenses as much as possible, when they have sick birds, they don't their feces for examination, etc. 

There is only one vet in Serbia that is an avian vet, it's professor Radmila Resanovic, but she doesn't perform surgeries. And there are maybe 10 good surgeons in the whole country, but only 3 maybe 4 that are orthopedic surgeons, others are primarily soft tissue surgeons.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,



Tha Album I posted the link to was for representing some arrangements of a Sling.


I do not have any Albums for slinging Pigeons who have both Legs broken, even though I have had several such Birds.


Pigeons who have one broken Leg do not go into a Sling.


Here is one example of a Splint -





As mentioned, I make these from a portion of the Handle of a plastic Spoon or Fork, and, shape them and decide the length of each part according to the conditions of the actual Leg.


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The surgery is on Monday. I even called a vet from Croatia, he said that surgery has to be performed on an open wound, he said something like building a ladder, horizontal liens are placed inside the bones, the vertical outside to hold these inside.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, Monday it is. Remember all I said about the anesthesia and I would still place some gauze around the wound, on top of the Rivanol, and keep wet with saline, this will help protect and ensure the bones stays moist, it will be a big problem if the bone(s)dries out even a little.

In the meantime, what about pain management, are you giving Metacam (Meloxicam) and is he on antibiotics? With the Metacam, please do not give any if you are even a little unsure of the dose (too much is very bad), I gave it to you earlier, to remind you, you want to get the standard 1.5mg/mL suspension and give .05cc (this is halfway between 0 and the very first line on a 1cc syringe) once a day. If the pharmacist is making it for you, one standard size pill Meloxicam comes in is 15mg. He would want to take one pill and add it to 10mL of suspension liquid to get the standard doing for animals that vets carry, just mentioned, 1.5mg/mL. The Metacam will also help with inflammation and swelling, which if there is a lot of, can make setting the legs a little harder, stop giving it Sunday and mention that you have given this med to the bird to your vet, (if you do/are giving), so he knows to factor this into his decisions.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I haven't found metacam, so now is Sunday, will it hurt if I haven't given him any?? should he get some after the surgery??

he is on Baytril, I didn't find Clindamycin, tomorrow I'm going to get Clindamycin.

Also, I've noticed that one part of his leg is really really blue, is that gangrene or just from the blow?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

They bruise bluish green...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I haven't found metacam, so now is Sunday, will it hurt if I haven't given him any?? should he get some after the surgery??
> 
> he is on Baytril, I didn't find Clindamycin, tomorrow I'm going to get Clindamycin.
> 
> Also, I've noticed that one part of his leg is really really blue, is that gangrene or just from the blow?


As Phil mentions, what you are seeing in the leg is bruising from either the window or possibly the injection he received. Glad to hear he is on antibiotics and to remind you, Clindamycin 100-150mg/kg q24h, once a day. With the Metacam, he would be in pain from the legs and this med would help take the edge off the pain. If you don't get any, speak to your vet on Monday and see if he will prescribe/dispense you some.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I bought clindamycin, but for humans in tablet form with 600 mg of clindamycin per tablet, but the tablet is quite big, so I was able to cut it and gave him something about 37.5 mg.

Is it safe for birds?? There so many negative side effects????


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him Clindamycin, now he has diarrhea with million bubbles, why is that?? 

I read on this: “The most severe common adverse effect of clindamycin is Clostridium difficile-associated diarrhea (the most frequent cause of pseudomembranous colitis).”


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm going crazy, I just can't take this stress anymore.

I read on Wikipedia that I should start him on Metrdonidazole for Clostridium, and I did.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, you have to stop. You are panicking too much, Clostridium difficile is an infection that does not develop after a single dose, settle down. Make sure you get the dosing right, I have had a few birds on Clindamycin with never any problems. Look, if you are nervous about the Clindamycin, stop it, please don't add the Metronidazole into the mix. Keep him on the Baytril, check with your vet and keep him hydrated and feed.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Trust me, it started immediately. I know his poop and I know that Clostridium produces bubbles. He immediately had diarhea with million bubbles.
Why not Metronidazole?? It's also good for anaerobic bacteria.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I found in this aritcle (link) that Clindamycin is good for bones and preventing osteomyielitis after cat and dog attacks, and it is used together with Baytril


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


Is the Vet going to set the Legs to-day?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Here in Belgrade is Sunday, 22:48, I'm calling the vet in the morning. 

I called yesterday Emilio Mendjusic, it's very good avian vet from Croatia, he told how I have to change very often the sling because of the poop.

Phil, I saw your sling, you made two models, right?? Which one is better and how should I make it???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal the sling I used was designed to not restrict/close off the vent area, so the bird could be in the sling and droppings were not a issue.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok, please tell me how I can make that. I'm so stressed, I can't even sleep. So many sick birds and I have to study for exams and can't do that with all this happening.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You have to figure out how to make and arrange the Sling by thinking and by experiment.

Any given form or arrange may or may not suit the comfort of a particular Bird.


The fabric is folded in at the rear for the poops to be able to be made and fall so things stay clean.

This is usually not easy, and, the times I have done it required many trials and changes to permit the Pigeon comfort...otherwise the Pigeon fusses and squirms and wriggles out of the Sling.


You have to emulate the ones shown, and go from there.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, here is a quick drawing of my sling. I used a piece of old wool coat the lines on the side are to represent Velcro, which I hot-glued to the edges to close her in, the holes of course are where the legs go through. Even though the wool was soft, there will be places that friction will occur, at these places I used double sided tape to stick thin foam to to breath and reduce chaffing. At the the front I used a large safety pin to close and this also gave some option on how tight I could make things, as I mentioned before, she did not like to be confined, so thing had to be kind of tight to let her know there was no use in even trying to escape.

Use some thin easy to work with cloth to make a template, as you will make a number of mistakes and tries before you get a good fit, then do the final in some thick very soft material. To suspend him, I just needed a 1/4" oak dowel that ran down the top were the Velcro closed, I used two small safety pins, one top front and one top back and two twist ties to secure the sling to the dowel, do it would not slide around. 

I kept him in a regular hospital cage by cutting the dowel to the right size to fit in, so an end would poke the the bars on each end and then secured in place with twist ties. I also did not lay him flat, but used the upper cage bars on his front and lower cage bars on the rear, so she was elevated at about 30 degrees. Although I provided seeds and water in front of her, but she found it challenging to eat so I supplemented her with Kaytee while she was in the sling and the wanted her front elevated so I did not have to worry about food coming up from her crop.

As Phil says, you will have to kind of do some trial and error, but this may help you a bit,

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I've made this, so let's go from here. 
http://yfrog.com/5f270920101725j

Obviously I'm going to make holes for legs, but how do I strap her so that she doesn't move??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The Sling merely suspends the Bird, about like a person laying in a Hammok...the Bird is not being constrained or strapped in to it.


The sides of the Sling can be close to the Bird or father apart, according to how the Bird is accepting it.

Legs dangle through carefully placed Holes...


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

How can I close the sling in order to stop her moving??

http://yfrog.com/5f270920101725j


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, the one bird I had to deal with would NOT stay still, we went through a few different slings, which she got out of right away. Finally, to the sling I drew in my last post, while comfortable to a certain extent, was more or less a straight jacket for her, as nothing short of this would she stay in. We had to do this as she re-broke her leg on one her escape attempts. The Velcro and safety pins locked her in. Perhaps you will have a much more docile, cooperative bird and make get a way with a less confining sling set up, if not you have my design as a guide. What you have set up, in your photo, the bird I had would last about 5 seconds in it, LOL.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Omg, now I took her and felt that her fingers on one leg are cold, I know it's bad sign, what now???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, there may be some restricted blood flow from the open break and swelling in the area, perhaps causing the coolness you describe, but I am sure there is still some circulation making it through, not too long to go now until he gets his legs set.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok. And now, about anesthesia, should I remove food and water now?? Operation is in 8 hours.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Food, yes now, water 6 hours before, but change to hydration fluid to help make sure the bird is as well hydrated with good electrolyte levels as possible.

Also, when making up the sling, you will use another bird, that is of similar weight, and size, as the model to use for fashioning the sling, as it will take a number of tries and adjustments in and out, this would be too stressful on the injured bird.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The surgerey was done 2 hours ago, he is awake, stilly sleepy, is that normal??

He hasn't poop yet, why??

He got 5 ml of ringer's solution, he is in a sling, sleeping.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

All sounds perfectly normal. Glad he made it through the surgery, how long was it and what did the surgeon have to say?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Vet said he is worried because of the blood vessels, because thery are crushed. I am so sad now because of this. 

His feets are now cold, what does that mean?? They were warm beofre the surgery?
The surgery lasted for more than an hour.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, we will just have to wait and see. A number of photos I have seen on the site of string injured birds have had string severely restrict the flow of blood to their feet and toes, but enough blood managed to get through to keep the extremity viable. Let's hope that this will be the case with this bird, not ideal blood flow, but enough to keep things viable.

Also, I would place a heat pad under where he is hanging set to MED to HI, you will have to judge how much heat is coming up to him, so he does not get too warm, just a nice warm feeling for him. This will give some warmth to his legs to help with circulation.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Was it a good sign that his feet were warm right before the surgery??

But now his feets are cold?? The vet said it's normal


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

the vet also said that the bones are thin and brittle, but i hope they are going to heal fine


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

he wants to eat, he ate 2 seeds, should i give him some more seeds?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigeons' feet get cold or warm, depending--you can't tell much about the bird from that.

If he wants to eat seeds, let him have all that he wants.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

How will I know if there is enough blood flow??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

And he is moving normally one leg, but not the other, the one with an open fracture, sould this be because of so many stitches??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> And he is moving normally one leg, but not the other, the one with an open fracture, sould this be because of so many stitches??


Can you post a picture, by any chance?

Normally with fractures, they don't move them at all if at all possible for roughly a week and a half or so.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> How will I know if there is enough blood flow??


Usually with avascular necrosis, you'll see blackening of the extremities in due course (a few days) as well as shrinking. If everything stays about the same color and size, then no problem.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I will post it later if that's ok, I've just put him back in the sling. He is moving the leg where the break was in the place where the fingers start, but he doesn't move the one where the break was in the joint.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Usually with avascular necrosis, you'll see blackening of the extremities in due course (a few days) as well as shrinking. If everything stays about the same color and size, then no problem.
> 
> Pidgey


Omg, let's hope I don't see that. But his legs are now kind of dark blue. 

Here are the pictures 
http://img823.imageshack.us/g/270920101727.jpg/

Please tell me what you think


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> Omg, let's hope I don't see that. But his legs are now kind of dark blue.
> 
> Here are the pictures
> http://img823.imageshack.us/g/270920101727.jpg/
> ...


Well... that's going to turn green fairly shortly (generally within 48 hours of the injury). That's BECAUSE they make a greenish (usually a dark bluegreen) pigment called "biliverdin" in bruised tissue. It's NOT to be mistaken for gangrene (which is actually black) and you're NOT to panic when you see it.

In any case, no, he's not going to be trying to move that for awhile. DMSO (DimethylSulfoxide) might help with the inflammation.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He has already had green bruises, but they seem to have passed, but is this normal colour??
And is it normal that he doesn't move now his leg that is broken in joint??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> He has already had green bruises, but they seem to have passed, but is this normal colour??
> And is it normal that he doesn't move now his leg that is broken in joint??


Usually when I get one with a broken leg, they try not to move at all for a few days. That one's VERY broken, but that statement doesn't mean that I don't think it can heal. Generally, you're going to want to get the swelling down before you fixate the movement. This bird would be best in a sling for a few days before splinting that leg. No, he or she is going to be very unlikely to move it for quite awhile. When the swelling goes down, it'll be good to fixate it with masking tape if they've got that in Serbia. Hang on a bit and I'll go find a post where I show doing that.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's possible to splint a broken leg on any bird with masking tape and it's pretty simple as well--that's what most vets do if it's not too complex of a fracture. You can take a look at this page and study the skeletal drawings to help you figure out the applicable anatomy:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

In many cases, you can roll up a towel into a donut that the bird can settle into the middle of in such a way as to take any pressure off of the leg easily. Sometimes, you can bring them in the house and treat them like the Queen of Sheba with food and water right in front of them and they'll behave pretty well. About the only thing they'll stand up to do is poop and if you dutifully keep that cleaned up and then gently put them back down, they can learn to take it real easy and heal up just like that. In this bird's case with both legs broken, he ought to be hanging in a sling with his legs dangling for a couple of weeks.

You usually have to clip the feathers of the leg closely with scissors and use masking tape to immobilize the leg as shown here:










...and it might come out looking like this:



The break on this bird was high enough on the tibiotarsus that I extended the tape up and over the back to help it immobilize it--otherwise, following the drawings above wouldn't have gone high enough to actually do the job. I clipped all the feathers short where the tape went, too.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Read this story and take a look at how Braveheart was hung in a makeshift sling (from a sock):

http://www.redroselofts.com/braveheart.htm

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, as Pidgey says, the bird should not want to move around much, but if you find he does, you will have to make sure he does not come out, as it would not be good for his leg(s), for him to struggle and then get out. If you see him starting to get agitated to get out of the sling, you will have to go to a more restrictive design, where he will not be able to get out, please do monitor this very closely.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sling Birds can also get really agitated or fidgety out of frustration or a comfort related annoyance, and sometimes only need to be adjusted a little to calm down and start pecking Seeds or whatever and be fine again.


Rear of the Sling needs to allow free and easy poop falling so all stays clean and so the Bird is not annoyed and exasperated about that.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Sling Birds can also get really agitated or fidgety out of frustration or a comfort related annoyance, and sometimes only need to be adjusted a little to calm down and start pecking Seeds or whatever and be fine again.
> 
> Rear of the Sling needs to allow free and easy poop falling so all stays clean and so the Bird is not annoyed and exasperated about that.


Yes indeed.... good reminders.

Eternal, in your photos it looks like you used a lighter material, which may not offer enough support at the back if you cut away a "U" to allow droppings to fall freely. You may need a heavier material to be able to make cutouts to and still not give way.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have always been pleased using old Cotton Tee-Shirt material...it 'breathes' well, is just stretchy enough, and one old Tee-Shirt can make several Slings if need be.

The 'Bull Dog Clips', roll or fold the fabric edge for the Clip to get a good hold...and String or even a Dowel Rod can suspend the Sling arrangement.

It takes some fussing to get right.


----------



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I had to wrap a cloth around him in a bow, and I hung him like that in a sling, so we can say he has double sling because he wants to move.

His fingers are still cold, and so is his beak, is this normal?? This doesn't mean he doesn't have enoguh blood flow in the legs? Now I'm really scared.

Good thing is that he eats normally in a sling, and he poops normally too.


----------



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

And is it normal that his green bruises are now gone after the surgery??


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


All of the occasions of Broken Legs I have dealt with I had Splinted and 'set' and taped up to the padded Splint...so you could not see the Leg.


I would expect discoloration from bruises to last a while, but, they could clear up fast if the Bird's system is running really well and clearing out the discoloration materials from the intersticials of the effected Tissue I s'pose.

I myself even if getting a heavy or serious whallop virtually never bruise...other people, look at them sideways, and they turn yellow/brown/blue, worse than ripe Bartlet Pears...so everyone, people or Bird, is a little different as for threshold of bruising.


It is normal for occasions of damaged or compromised Blood Vessels around the Break area, when accompanying a Broken Leg, to then have less Blood Flow to the Foot.


This repairs itself along with the rest of it over a couple to three weeks.


If in a cooler clime, one could supply some supplimental warmth at the Cage Bottom, below the Sling, for the Feet to be warmer from the rising warm air, and to promote just a little bit more Blood Flow maybe.


However, a Bird in a Sling can also over-heat, so...kind of a conflict there with that.


A 'Pin Head' size bit ( but no larger, ) of regular Asprin can also help, since it is in effect a Blood thinner and anticoagulant, if wishing to aid circulation which is impeded from damaged Blood Vessels in the extremities.


----------



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok. So I can give him some aspirin? today or should I wait till tomorrow?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Now is fine...


What other meds all tolled is he on?


I loose track...


----------



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Baytril and Clindamycin. 

Please tell me that cold fingers aren't bad sign!


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Cold Toes are not unusual for a Broken Leg if swelling or constriction or injury to the major Blood Vessel is present.

As those conditions repair themselves, the Leg and Foot and Toes will be warm again...and this may take a couple weeks.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi eternal,
> 
> All of the occasions of Broken Legs I have dealt with I had Splinted and 'set' and taped up to the padded Splint...so you could not see the Leg.


Phil, I thought the same thing, so I asked Pidgey and he said best to let the swelling come down and then give the leg some support by taping or wrapping later.

Eternal, I know we are concentrating on the one leg, but you said both legs were broken, did the vet wrap/set the other leg?

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

http://img833.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=280920101732.jpg

Omg, I think that his fingers are starting to get purple. I'm not sure if you can see it in the pictures, zoom it.

We're going to see the vet in a few hours.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The dark material on his Foot appears to represent an injury.


Color of Foot and Toes looks fine otherwise.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, you probably ought to give the bird some space and go read a novel at your local library for several hours at a time. Listen, I know how it is to obsess over these cases because that's my nature, too. And what I've learned is to "back off" a bit because you can WAY MORE EASILY THAN YOU'D EVER BELIEVE... make things worse. I mean that.

That said, those feet don't look bad at the moment. And if they're going to get bad, there's not a huge amount you could do about it anyhow. About the ONLY thing that I can think of that you might try (won't hurt) is to go get something that we here call "Preparation H" that's used to shrink hemorrhoidal tissues. It's a hydrocortisone cream that you can put on that swelling and possibly shrink it some--it's sometimes used in cases like this. Other than that, go do something to get your mind off of it for awhile.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Omg, is this gangrene too??

http://img836.imageshack.us/g/290920101740.jpg/


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> Omg, is this gangrene too??
> 
> http://img836.imageshack.us/g/290920101740.jpg/


Looks like some scabbing. Haven't you ever gotten a scab?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I thought the same thing, but why would he have it there??????


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> I thought the same thing, but why would he have it there??????


Small amount of necrosis? Maybe he's been working it over with his beak because it itches or is otherwise uncomfortable?

The real point is, since the question cannot be answered and the spot doesn't look THAT BAD yet... let's calm down, wait and see. Otherwise your vet's going to do... what? Saw the leg off?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

No, he can't touch it with his beak, he's in a sling. 
I don't know what he is going to do, the one who operated on him is on some conference abroad, he is back on Monday or Tuesday.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Small amount of necrosis?
> Pidgey


Why the question mark?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> Why the question mark?


That's a loaded question--the key point was the "small". Technically, when you've got a small scab the size of a pencil eraser (the one ON the pencil), there's some necrosis there--some dead tissue. When you've rehabbed some truly awful cases like some of us here have, you've got a lot more... patience. And acceptance of what you cannot change, but can only watch develop. Panicking usually does far more harm than good. Period. End of story.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

It is small amount of necrosis. I'm scared because it's benn 2 days after the surgery and he has necrosis, that is a bad sign


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> It is small amount of necrosis. I'm scared because it's benn 2 days after the surgery and he has necrosis, that is a bad sign


Detail of what was done in the surgery?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The leg was broken, there was a broken bone coming out of skin, and the vet fixed the leg, and said that the blood vessels are crushed


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Scabs can take weeks to fall off...it is normal.


The crushed Blood Vessels will repair themselves slowly...even as the Broken Bone will slowly mend while being stabalized to do so.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The seeds are started to return from the crop, why is that??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> The seeds are started to return from the crop, why is that??


I don't understand the question--you're going to have to rephrase it, sorry!

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I know it's confusing. He eats seeds in the sling and then like he can't swallow it and they remain in the mouth. I suppose it's because of sling


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> I know it's confusing. He eats seeds in the sling and then like he can't swallow it and they remain in the mouth. I suppose it's because of sling


I suppose you could try holding him up in a different way while he's eating and seeing if you can take some of the pressure of the sling off while he's eating.

How're the legs looking? New pictures?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

His food remains in the neck so I have to give him water for him to swallow. I plan to switch to formula. 

Well, we have problem with the leg, the metal part that's inside the leg, the implant, started to come out, I suppose it's because he is not very calm. always trying to release himself from the sling. We're going for an x ray on Monday to see what happened and if a correction is necessary. 

The legs are still warm, I tried removing those scabs and I did and below them there isn't any necrotic tissue, but the part where the stiches are is the worst, I haven't touched that part.

I will post pictures later.

So, there is some necrosis, let's hope it stops here.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> His food remains in the neck so I have to give him water for him to swallow. I plan to switch to formula.
> 
> Well, we have problem with the leg, the metal part that's inside the leg, the implant, started to come out, I suppose it's because he is not very calm. always trying to release himself from the sling. We're going for an x ray on Monday to see what happened and if a correction is necessary.
> 
> ...


Even I'm having a difficult time keeping these two birds separate in my mind...

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

New pictures, what do you think?? Why is the part around the stitched purple??

http://img638.imageshack.us/g/021020101760.jpg/


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, probably due to the circulation not being completely re-established yet--looks pretty typical for that kind of thing. Don't you get blue coloration when you get bruised? It's pretty much the same for all of us. I've certainly seen a lot worse.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images of the poops?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

It seems like the problems are never going to end.

His implant has started to come out, I think it's becase he's not very calm in the sling. First it was only 1mm, now it's maybe 3 mm, he even maybe broke the implant and another surgery will be needed!

But today I lookes his wing wound, it looks terrible!!!!
http://img716.imageshack.us/f/021020101763.jpg/


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What do you know about the origin and history of the Wing Wound?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I know nothing. The vet said it's a bite wound and I agree. That's why he got osteomyelitis and it deifinitely requires surgery. But the wing is now smaller problem. I'm afraid he's going to need another surgery to fix his legs. I don't know how to restrain him?? Maybe if I splint his legs?? But I need to see what the wound looks like. Phil, what do you think about the blue coloration around the stitches?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal said:


> I know nothing. The vet said it's a bite wound and I agree.



Well, it ( Wing Wound ) looks like it was never debrided or managed.


It will not heal with necrotic debris inclusions as seen in the image...or, it will take for ever to heal and clear itself.


Does not look like a bite either, unless there was a co-responding Eye Tooth bite below or on the other side, but, who knows. Looks more like a BB or Pellet Gun perforation which is now a week or two old.


Anyway looks typical of a pncture or perforation wound which has not had anything done for it.


Usually one would manage a wound like that, and remove any debris, apply topical medicines, flush and sluice it daily or twice-a-day, and, for douing so, it quickly heals.

This wound is stalled for want of appropriate attentions and debriding, and the old 'hole' is wide, thickened, and not going to close any time soon without right attentions.




> That's why he got osteomyelitis and it deifinitely requires surgery. But the wing is now smaller problem. I'm afraid he's going to need another surgery to fix his legs. I don't know how to restrain him?? Maybe if I splint his legs?? But I need to see what the wound looks like. Phil, what do you think about the blue coloration around the stitches?




Leg injury, as seen in your Link of -


http://img638.imageshack.us/g/021020101760.jpg/


Looks fine to me, looks good in fact, don't worry about it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's time for an entire course of Clindamycin.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I think the wound is more than 2 months old, because I first saw this pigeon with with dragging wing on July 22th. I removed this huge scab, it now looks terrible, I will post picture later. He's already on Clyndamicin.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

please help, ehere should I inject saline IP??? the pigeon suddenly started to feel worse???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't personally do that (rehydrate pigeons by parenteral means) so don't know what to tell you. Why do you think the bird has "suddenly started to feel worse"?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He became lethargic, sleepy out of the blue. can you ask anyone??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

i gave him 10cc sub q


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> i gave him 10cc sub q


Of what?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

ringer's, I only had this one


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And you gave it to him... why? Has he not been drinking any water lately? Starting to get sleepy? What are the symptoms?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I told you, extremely sleepy, slightly open beak.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sorry, didn't see that post because the page rolled. Gotta' wonder if it's like an encephalitis or something like that... What have the poops been like and how much has he been drinking?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What's the respiration rate?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He's been drinking normally, around 40-50 ml per day. I offer him every hour water bowl. He's been eating normally also.

What can I do about encephalitis??

He's on Baytril and Clyndamicin, I have chloramphenicol, but I think it's contraindicated with Clyndamicin. I would say he breathes normally.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Respiration rate = breaths per minute. Take it.

So, how would he get dehydrated if he's drinking that much water per day? Extremely watery poops?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

18 breaths


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

no it's 20


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

See, that's slow. Slow often means something going wrong in the neurological system.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

omg, what to do now???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They'd normally be nearer to 30-35. Faster than that (with no exertion to warrant it) and you're into other kinds of problems. Signficantly slower and you're looking at other problems like encephalitis. What can we do about that? Difficult to say, given the drugs that he's already on. There are, of course, viral things that we can't do anything about except provide supportive measures.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do me a favor and post a picture of the entire bird. Full frame, but the whole bird and how's he's sitting, laying or whatever.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

what about perspiration rate in case of dehydration?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm holding him in my hand


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images of the poops?


Slow respiration, lethargy, 'wilting'...often is from some systemic infection not covered by the meds being used for other issues.


What has his food intake been? 

Has he been self feeding?

How many normal size poops in-a-24 hour period?


Images of fresh poops?


Images of him also, as himself?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

eternal said:


> what about perspiration rate in case of dehydration?


Please answer this.

What antibiotic I can give him now??

Bactrim, Chloramphenicol, Doxy+Tylosin, Ampicillin???????


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Please answer the questions in Post # 178, and, post some images of the poops.


Otherwise, there is no way to form an opinion on what is going on, nor, what might be done to aid or correct it.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

It's 23 now. i don't have pictures of the poops.

Everything was normal. I don't know exactly how much he ate but he ate enough. He fed himslef. I didn't count the poops although they were bigger, I suppose it's because of the sling.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

25 breaths per minute

please tell me what is the respiration rate in case of dehydration


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

He is not dehydrated...

Pigeons do not 'perspire'.


Images of the poops?


Possibly, he is simply exhausted from all the stress, and was merely wishing to sleep a little bit.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> He is not dehydrated...
> 
> Pigeons do not 'perspire'.
> 
> ...


How can you know if he's dehydrated or not? His skin now looks better, I mean after the sub q liquids. That's why I would like to know what is the respiration rate in dehydrated bird?? Less or more breaths?? I gave him Bactrim just in case. He's definitely not well.

Sorry Phil, I've been writing perspiration instead of respiraton.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Perspiration? - perspiring, 'sweating'...

Or...

Respiration? Breathing?


A Pigeon's rate of respiration will depend on his system's need for Oxygen at the moment or under the circumstances, how effecient his system is in acquiring atmospheric Oxygen and expelling CO2, and or how relaxed or upset he is.


Dehydration will tend to quicken respiration up to a point...then to cause lethargy.


Where are the images of the poops? And of him?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him Bactrim. Should I take him to the vet for an injection of some other antibiotic if it's going to work faster??

Don't have images of the poops. 

How can he have an infection if he's on Baytril and Clindamycin??? I really hate this Baytril, it's completely ineffective drug!!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure it's ineffective if the bird's got something viral instead of an "enrofloxacin-susceptible" bacterial infection. By the way, NO antibiotic produces visible results within "hours".

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Can you at lease describe the fecal matter and, the urates?

Images would be much much better though.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

So, even with injection?? How can this be viral??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The poop was fine. Sometimes there were bubbles. Always big. The poop was normal. He was eating maybe 4 hours ago. And now...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"And now dot-dot-dot" does NOT provide the information required to do anything diagnostic.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

There is nothing more to say. He was fine until few hours ago.

This happened out of the blue. He is lethargic, sleepy and that's it!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Any chance that he might just be sleepy?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

no way, no way. he's barely alive.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And why can't you do a picture?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images would really help.


Images of him himself.


Images of the poops.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I don't have images of the poops. But urates were white, poop green, not strong green, more like olive green. 

http://yfrog.com/na021020101769j


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

His respiration rate increased to 30, but he is still more dead than alive


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is he keeping his eyes mostly closed?

By the way, do you understand that you can give too many and too much antibiotics and cause more problems than you're trying to fix?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He was on Enrofloxacin and Clindamycin as Karyn (Dobato) suggested me. 
I had to give him new antibiotic now in case Baytril is not working. You yourself said that it could be some systemic action. It's not like I'm killing the bird with antibiotics.

As to eyes, yes, closed, slightly open beak, extremely sleepy.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Had to go back through the thread to review this bird's history again...

So this is the one with the bad wing that got knocked by the window and broke the leg(s)? I can't help but wonder if the original mess with the wing is more of a paratyphoid (type) boil. Sometimes, there are some systemic illnesses that they can get that present these symptoms that are VERY hard to clear. Paratyphoid, for instance, can sometimes go "L-form" and be virtually impossible to clear. And they can infect the bird perniciously to the point of finally killing it. You can go pretty crazy trying to help a bird like that with no good end result, I'm afraid. That's tough to know if that's the case, though, often only getting proved out at the autopsy.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I am going crazy, with all these sick birds, I can't take this pain any more.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I thought I would pipe in here a bit, in that given the situation, I would back off on everything for 24 hours. He has enough levels of long acting antibiotics in his sytems to deal with current infection issues, if its bacterial. Just might be kidney and liver issues from too much meds. My instinct is to go less, than to go more for a short period of time and see what happens, while contiuning to flush him with fluids.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok. I will do that.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Why does he keep an open beak??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I should have stopped with Clindamycin. I think this is because of Clindamycin. It has so many negative effects.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How open? They can have difficulty breathing for a lot of reasons, not all of them to do with actually getting air into the lungs. Since you've said that his respiration rate has been slow, if anything, we wouldn't tend to think that he's "open-beak breathing" due to having problems with the gas exchange (oxygen for CO2) in the lungs or has anemia. So... if he's got his eyes closed and is open-beak breathing, you'd wonder if the muscles holding the beak closed were excessively relaxed. That could go with the encephalitic possibility, but that's just one possibility out of many.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Also, he has excessive saliva in the mouth.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> I should have stopped with Clindamycin. I think this is because of Clindamycin. It has so many negative effects.


There's been nothing to date to give a reason to stop the course of Clindamycin. I've used it several times to no ill effect with it actually doing the job that it was supposed to do. Of course, I don't have any idea how much this bird's been getting.

Now, as to the effects of rehabbing tough cases on rehabbers, especially young and inexperienced ones... well, it can be VERY tough. We've all had the sleepless nights and the horrible failures--the ones where nothing you do seems to work. And we're sometimes haunted by those failures for... a long time. Yeah, keep doing this and you're going to get that, too, no way around it. It's very much a lot of guesswork, given the nature of the business.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> Also, he has excessive saliva in the mouth.


Maybe he's not swallowing... 

Does his head want to sorta' fall forward without support?

Pidgey


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, I am not suggesting to stop the Clindamycin, but to give all meds a pause, as my concern is with too much meds/amounts and giving this bird a chance to clear his system.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I wasn't even commenting on that--I'm cool with it.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks Pidgey, I was just being a little more clear on my thinking.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Maybe he's not swallowing...
> 
> Does his head want to sorta' fall forward without support?
> 
> Pidgey


Yes! But remember when I wrote the other day that the seeds remain in the neck?? That could be the symptom??


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... what I'm getting at with this line of questioning is that he's kinda' fading from consciousness. Now... whether that's due to him just being completely exhausted and needing serious sleep or whether he's actually got encephalitis (infection in the brain) and is dying, I can't tell you--I'm just fishing for real-time observations.

Exactly how much medication is he getting in detail?

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, I'm well acquainted with encephalitis because I had it once--you're pretty far out of it. The doctor told my mother that that was as sick as a person could get and yet still possibly live.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm going to be in and out for awhile--gotta' chore to do outside for awhile.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He is dying. What are the symptoms of encephalitis????


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He just died!!!


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm heartbroken


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry to hear this.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I am greatly saddened to hear this news, you tried so hard for him, please accept my condolences on his loss.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think there are toxemia, or toxic-shock syndromes which can do this sort of thing - the Bird appears to be doing well, and, over a few hours, fades, slows into torpor, and quietly expires.

Encephalitis can also do it...as Pidgey mentions.


I think systemic Staff might also be able to do it, which is more or less another version of Toxic Shock syndrome.

Just speculating...


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My condolences as well. Encephalitis often causes the brain to just shut down. Is that what he ended up with? Don't know, but it's a very firm possibility. Without an autopsy (they always call it a "necropsy" in animals, by the way), we'll never know or even have the faintest clue.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


Even for people of long learning and long experience, some of these illness/injury conditions are a handfull when just caring for one Bird.


You have had a lot going on with multiple Birds, and this is a very great difficulty then, particularly if you do not have long practical experience behind you.


Please make an intentional effort to take care of 'you' - regular wholesome meals, sleep, changes of venue off and on during the day.


These involvements are very trying for the Care Giver, and a person can get far more exhausted and under-nourished and sleep-deprived and become more emotionally exhausted and wrought, than they realize...especially when there is no real break for many days, or weeks, and where one is constantly worried and monitoring things.


You have done very very well, and it is the nature of these Bird-Conditions to be very demanding sometimes, and none of us succeed as well or thoroughly as we would wish, no matter how much experience we have.


So, just saying - try and make sure to be taking reasonable care of you too.


And, to accept that the challenges you have been dealing with are in fact very difficult, very few people can do them well, no one can do all of them perfectly every time , and all of it is often fraught with complications in many ways, which are hard to identify, manage, or foresee.


Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> I think there are toxemia, or toxic-shock syndromes which can do this sort of thing - the Bird appears to be doing well, and, over a few hours, fades, slows into torpor, and quietly expires.
> 
> Encephalitis can also do it...as Pidgey mentions.
> 
> ...


I think you are right, but what could have caused this???


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal said:


> I think you are right, but what could have caused this???



I don't know.


I have had this happen a few times here with Birds who otherwise, appeared to have been progressing well from an injury or illness or both.



Bacteria which are not addressed by the Medicines we might be using for a presumed primary illness...can slowly increase and become systemic and cause it.


Bacteria not addressed by the medicines we have elected for a presumed primary illness, can also sometimes be localized into areas of considerable internal infection, and we have no way to know it untill it becomes systemic, and, we infer it by the syndrome of global wilting, slowing, and expire.


Conditions which can compromise the Blood-Brain 'barrier' ( Cell Phones, Wireless, etc probably could do this, but other things can also, ) can allow unusual versions of Encephalitis to occur with rapid onest, and no time for resolution before a fatal consequence occurs.


Other forms, the Kidneys and Liver are busy metabolizing or breaking down or removing some medicines or chemical by-products, some materials are being removed or broken down faster than others, and, the ones they are not fast enough with can build up in the Blood and Tissues and make for very serious global problems/supressions of system's functions, toxic problems.


Those are what I have for a kind of appreciation anyway.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And in infections in the brain, brain stem and spinal column, there is an added problem of the "blood-brain barrier". That is, the brain and central nervous system is VERY specific about what it lets in, including foreign chemicals like antibiotics. One of the biggest problems that we have with humans in trying to treat things like meningitis, encephalitis and other presentations of infections in there is actually getting antibiotics in there due to the advanced filtration that the brain and CNS uses. In human medicine, there are even times when we have to install a means of literally injecting the antibiotics directly inside there to get them in.

This might have been a very advanced case of progressive Paratyphoid (Salmonellosis) that had invaded organs and some joints. Involvment of the CNS was just the last phase and that's where it often turns deadly.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I am so very sorry for the loss of this bird, eternal. Bless you for trying so hard and for so long.

Terry


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