# Red + Lavender= Black?



## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

I noticed a few times if I breed red bird with lavender color bird, I get black chicks. e.g. if I breed a nun pigeon, which has red head and tail, white body with another one which has lavender color head and tail, I get chicks with black head and tail, white body.

so does that mean? if I breed a fantail which has red body, white tail with another fantail which has lavender body white tail, i will get chicks with black body white tail???


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The recessive red is either black underneath or carrying blue/black. Which one is the cockbird?


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

I have never seen any indian fantail which have black body with white tail. currently I have a young pair lavender body white tail.. and it is easy to find red body white tail ones as well, thus I just curious if I cross them I may get body mark chicks..

does the colour related to sex as well? if yes, which color should be the cock, which one should be hen? many thanks


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

*tmaas*

There are too many variables to determine the outcome because your "red" Indian Fantail may be recessive red masking some other color, or it may be the dirty factor combined with t-checker pattern and ash red which can mimic rec. red. In your white tailed birds it will be more difficult to decipher one red from the other b/c ash reds usually show a lighter color tail bar "ribbon" when color is expressed in that portion of the bird. Also, your "lavender" could be spread factor on ash red, appearing as lavender. Lavender color in Nuns is the milky factor (a recessive trait) added to black, and red Nuns are rec. red usually masking black or chocolate (a recessive trait) so when mated together their progeny are all, or mostly, black because the recessive traits are lost (hidden) for the immediate generation. More simply put, it's highly unlikely to produce blacks from such a mating in Indian Fantails, but try it anyway just to see what you do get. That's the fun of pigeon breeding. White tail should remain white in offspring.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

dingweding said:


> I have never seen any indian fantail which have black body with white tail. currently I have a young pair lavender body white tail.. and it is easy to find red body white tail ones as well, thus I just curious if I cross them I may get body mark chicks..
> 
> does the colour related to sex as well? if yes, which color should be the cock, which one should be hen? many thanks


*It would help if you could show us some pictures of these birds.*GEORGE


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

here is a pic i found


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

ameerican ones


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

this is the pair i bought


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

btw, the pair i bought are very tiny, about 6 inch tall


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## BLOWINSMOKE (Oct 9, 2010)

Beautiful birds, is the small pair Mindians?


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

I do not know, but they are very small, even smaller than my american fantail.. so i guess they must be mini, not sure what kinda of chicks they will have... or maybe i will split them pair them with other color birds.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

*tmaas*

Your lavender Indian Fantails appear to be true lavender(milky factor) therefor likely to produce blacks because they are genetically black with the milky factor lightening the black color. Milky is a recessive trait so it will not be expressed in their next generation if the other parent doesn't possess it nor carry it, however, their offspring may again produce it.


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

many thanks, so in order to breed the black, do i cross the lavender to a black one or i breed those two lanvenders? in the latter case, i guess they chicks will all be lavender?? that is bit boring


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Yes, if you breed the lavenders, the chicks will be lavenders.

I would also breed to a black bird instead, to get some interesting colours.

Of course, if you want to keep a line of mini's you'd have to inbreed the smaller F1 birds to the parents to keep the small size.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

You indicated earlier that you desired black with white tail but have never seen one, therefore to retain white tails mate a blue or brown/chocolate with white tail to either lavender bird. Your lavenders appear to be spread factor so 50 to 100% (depending upon whether they are impure or pure for spread) of their offspring will be spread factor (spread factor is what causes a blue to turn black, and a brown to turn chocolate). If you use a solid black mate then you will loose, or partially loose the white tail in the first generation but regain it later.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

tmaas said:


> You indicated earlier that you desired black with white tail but have never seen one, therefore to retain white tails mate a blue or brown/chocolate with white tail to either lavender bird. Your lavenders appear to be spread factor so 50 to 100% (depending upon whether they are impure or pure for spread) of their offspring will be spread factor (spread factor is what causes a blue to turn black, and a brown to turn chocolate). Also, a lavender cock will produce 100% milky factor daughters and 100% non milky sons carrying milky. If you use a solid black mate then you will loose, or partially loose the white tail in the first generation but regain it later.


Milky (_my_) is an autosomal recessive gene. Milky paired to a non-milky (and not heterozygous for milky) will not produce any milky offspring; the young from this type of mating will be heterozygous milky. The mating of two heterozygotes will produce approximately 25% milky offspring, 25% milky heterozygotes and 50% non-milky (either sex in each case). Pairing milky to heterozygous milky will produce approximately 50% milky offspring (cocks and hens).


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I apologize for my mistake in earlier statement that milky cock birds would produce milky daughters. I had milky confused with reduced for some idiotic reason. A milky mated to non milky (not carrying milky) will only produce offspring (both sexes) carrying milky. I'm sorry if I confused anyone!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Interesting. I wasn't expecting lavender as in lahore lavender. Nor was I expecting a milky ash-red t-pattern instead of a recessive red or regular ash-red. You'll need to mate these to blacks to get blacks. Otherwise you'll continue getting milky blacks or "lavender".


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

On another barely related note, it's a pitty we have to rename breeds when going back to the original state. Such as "mindians", which although mine are close to qualifying as, I refuse to call them anything other than old style Indians. And "Toy Modenas", which makes a bit more sense because their standard is a bit different from what the originals looked like. But still, you get my point.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> On another barely related note, it's a pitty we have to rename breeds when going back to the original state. Such as "mindians", which although mine are close to qualifying as, I refuse to call them anything other than old style Indians. And "Toy Modenas", which makes a bit more sense because their standard is a bit different from what the originals looked like. But still, you get my point.


The most evident of such a renaming of the original would probably be Classic Oriental Frills. 

I didn't know that Mindians was also such an occurrence. I thought they were bred from the current stock of Indian Fantails in the US, but that breeders were just trying to create a smaller form.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

MaryOfExeter said:


> On another barely related note, it's a pitty we have to rename breeds when going back to the original state. Such as "mindians", which although mine are close to qualifying as, I refuse to call them anything other than old style Indians. And "Toy Modenas", which makes a bit more sense because their standard is a bit different from what the originals looked like. But still, you get my point.


In this era of super sizing it seems that our pigeons "standard of perfection" have gone the same direction. However, some pigeon fanciers have no desire for super duper, extra large, mega sized pigeons. I think there is plenty room in this world for a little more variety. It's the spice of life! I raise English Carriers to be as big and tall as possible along side rollers as small and compact as possible. It's a nice contrast.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

tmaas said:


> In this era of super sizing it seems that our pigeons "standard of perfection" have gone the same direction. However, some pigeon fanciers have no desire for super duper, extra large, mega sized pigeons. I think there is plenty room in this world for a little more variety. It's the spice of life! I raise English Carriers to be as big and tall as possible along side rollers as small and compact as possible. It's a nice contrast.


I find it rather surprising that the "bigger is better" mentality is so ubiquitous in the standards. I would have thought that urbanization and lack of space would have caused us to breed smaller birds. (Just like bantam chickens for those who don't have the space for the regular sized birds). 

Smaller birds would allow those who have space / monetary constraints to keep more birds in the same area, and also feed them far less than the giant breeds require. In my opinion figuritas and catalonians should be far more popular than modenas, indian fantails and exhibition homer breeds.


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

personally I much prefer the smaller ones, the big indian fantail almost look like chicken.. I know those breeder of mindian fantail normally cross indian fantail and Rostov Swan to downsize the bird...

However, I was told by a fantail breeder, if you keep breeding same blood fantail again and again, the chick will become smaller and smaller by generation, which is consider as bad quality. thus they have to bring new blood in to keep the size of the bird.


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

Back to original question, the reason I bought this pair is not because the milky color, as it is not so unusual to find a milky fantail, however I reallly like their white tail... If I cross them with pure black one, will the chicks become totally black or the black will only spread on the body not the tail?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

White tail is a dominant trait, so white tail mated to any other bird should give at least some white tailed birds.


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