# Canker, yellow mouth, dried blood?



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

I'm a little concerned here about Henny. She's currently sitting on dummy eggs in her nest and while I was cleaning the room I noticed that one side of her mouth has dried blood on it. I was so apprehensive of examining her while on the nest because she FREAKS! However, I had no choice but to look and see what was going on. I pulled her out of the nest box and boy did she freak, all the other birds went nuts too because she was grunting and struggling so much, I could barely contain her. I had to use so much force to hold her wings in place!!!

Anyways, I opened her mouth and looked inside and I can't see any canker growths but the top of her mouth had a yellowish colouration to it. As did the right corner of her mouth where the dried blood was that had discoloured the feathers there. In the corner of her beakl, the "lip area" looks a little swollen and it's also yellowish in colour. I treat my birds for canker once a year with Spartrix and I've never seen canker in them before, their mouths have always been pink and clear. And as far as canker that I've seen in pictures, books and websites, this doesn't look like that. I'm assuming this is the early stages of canker??? Does bleeding ever occur? Due to her situation of nesting and her aggressive, defensive state, I can't see how I could take a picture of this unfortunately.

Any advice here would be most appreciated cuz I'm a little worried about the old girl.


----------



## TaylorGS (Feb 27, 2005)

Hmm,
Well, do you have any pictures of your bird? Maybe you should get some antibioticx for her.
Taylor


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Brad,

It idoesn't sound like canker to me, but I would give spartrix just in case canker develops as secondary.

It might be as well to isolate her her until you have established what is wrong with her.

Cynthia


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Brad,

I am sorry your Henny has this problem.
From what you describe, this doesn't sound typically for canker, they usually are growths, not discolorations, but it could be an early stage, like you said.
Maybe she had a growth and it broke off and it bled.
If you have Spartix on hands then go ahaid and treat her, if the yellowish discolorations disappear then you know it was canker.

Reti


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cynthia, Reti, Taylor, 

Thanks for the advice, no it doesn't seem typical of what I know to be canker symptoms. I will try again later to take a picture and I should try to smell her mouth as well for something malodourous. This had to happen at the worst time while she's nesting She is a timid pigeon and everytime I have to interfere with her on her nest, she hates and distrusts me even more, it's so sad. 

Reti, perhaps this is possible that there was a growth and it got scraped off with eating or fighting with Eggbert as I've seen them fighting over the nest a few times. I thought about this possibility, that maybe eggbert hurt her or pulled out a feather near her beak and it bled, but that wouldn't explain the yellowish tint on the roof of her beak. 

I'm wondering if my spartrix has become ineffective since it's the only drug I use. And since I've never seen any growths or lessions in their mouths before, I assumed that they either didn't have it or that the yearly treatment was keeping it in check. 

Cynthia, she seems totally fine otherwise, and I checked Eggbert's mouth-he's totally clear and pink. Henny's behaviour has been very spunky lately so this is all very strange now


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If you could smell her mouth that would be good.
How are her droppings?

Do you have another canker medicine on hands like Metronidazole or Ronidazole?

Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Brad,


Is she eating & drinking well?

Has she had been vaccinated for pox?


Treesa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti,

Her droppings appear to be "normal" for a nesting hen....large and stinky at times. I don't have any other canker drugs on hand unfortunately I know I should have an alternative for rotating just in case that the canker has become immune to spartrix. This is a weird one!


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Treesa, 

Yep, she's eating and drinking normally. My birds are indoor pigeons, and therefore there has never been a need for vaccinating them.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Brad,

I also wondered about pigeon pox, is there any chance mosquitoes could have got in?

I did a bit of research and the pale colouring is not associated with canker but with anemia.

There is a condition called (I think) a "blood wart" or "faux pox". It looks like a single pigeon pox lesion and bleeds heavily. I can't for the life of me remember where I read about that one, I found it shortly after Karen had a pigeon that seemed to be bleeding from a single lesion. It might have been in a book that has been sent on to someone else but I will have a little hunt for it!

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I still don't know where I found it, but I copied it out into an e-mail to Karen, doesn't sound much like what you are seeing, Brad, apart from the bleeding:

Blood Warts:

Wart like lesions appear on the pigeon, usually singly. The lesions are black and vary in size from a small pea to a walnut and bleed very easily. After three to four weeks they regress spontaneously after which no more lesions are seen. Isolation in a protected environment is preferable . Following natural drying out of the lesion the blood wart drops off and complete recover occurs.

It is a form of pox virus and the bleeding can be severe 

Cynthia


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cynthia, 

Thank you very much for your reply and insight. I really doubt pox is the problem here for a couple of reasons. First of all, the pigeons are indoors....now coincidentally, I have been opening up the windows in their room lately for fresh air and since it's warm out and summer here now. However, the windows have screens on them that are bug proof. Also, Henny and Eggbert came from meagre beginnings and were surely exposed to mosquitos many times at their original home. The pens they were in were open to the outdoors with only standard chicken wire as a barrier. The breeder that I got them from told me that they were vaccinating for pox and PMV...this could be a lie easily. But I have to go by what I know, and it really does seem unlikely that pox is the problem here. 

As for blood warts, this is something that I have no knowledge of or information. It would seem that this could be a possibility going by your description of it's symptoms, but I don't know about the yellow mouth though and how that fits in here. If you could find out more information about this, maybe we can match the symptoms with the problem better. 

I'm going to give both Henny and Eggbert spartrix starting tomorrow for 3 days and see how that goes. I'm also going to place an order for an alternative drug for canker as well in case they've become immune to this drug. 

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions. I'm just as clued out here as any of you because this doesn't seem to fit with typical canker signs but on the other hand, I don't know what else it could be.


----------



## aldante (May 6, 2005)

Hi
When my little owl hen was going through her reaction to the overdose problem I had she had blood on the side of her beak also. It was slightly swollen and an off colour. She also had stringy moisture in her beak.
She cleared up on her own because there was no way I was giving them any more drugs. I wondered if her deceased mate was doing the "feeding/courtship" ritual with her and because she was not drinking alot if it just tore the sensitive skin. She is fine now. It cleared up in about 3 days and I have seen nothing since.
Jen




Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Cynthia,
> 
> Thank you very much for your reply and insight. I really doubt pox is the problem here for a couple of reasons. First of all, the pigeons are indoors....now coincidentally, I have been opening up the windows in their room lately for fresh air and since it's warm out and summer here now. However, the windows have screens on them that are bug proof. Also, Henny and Eggbert came from meagre beginnings and were surely exposed to mosquitos many times at their original home. The pens they were in were open to the outdoors with only standard chicken wire as a barrier. The breeder that I got them from told me that they were vaccinating for pox and PMV...this could be a lie easily. But I have to go by what I know, and it really does seem unlikely that pox is the problem here.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hi, Brad,

I've never seen anything like that before but I can conjecture:

In the post about the ruptured oviduct I relayed that the vet told me that the yellow buildup was, for birds, the equivalent of pus in us and it was the result of the inflammatory process. If the bird gets an infection or other pathogenic substance (like a spider bite) inside, it can build up in there as well and cause discoloration.

Hopefully, of course, it'll heal in a timely fashion on its own and will remain a mystery. But I'd keep an eye on it and be ready for a trip to the vet. Keep us posted.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Anyways, I opened her mouth and looked inside and I can't see any canker growths but the top of her mouth had a yellowish colouration to it. As did the right corner of her mouth where the dried blood was that had discoloured the feathers there. In the corner of her beakl, the "lip area" looks a little swollen and it's also yellowish in colour. I treat my birds for canker once a year with Spartrix and I've never seen canker in them before, their mouths have always been pink and clear. And as far as canker that I've seen in pictures, books and websites, this doesn't look like that. I'm assuming this is the early stages of canker??? Does bleeding ever occur? Due to her situation of nesting and her aggressive, defensive state, I can't see how I could take a picture of this unfortunately.
> 
> Any advice here would be most appreciated cuz I'm a little worried about the old girl.


Hi Brad,

I've encountered a similar situation w/interior of mouth having a yellowish caste to it. Like your bird, mine was sitting on eggs so I wasn't too sure regarding poop. I kept an eye on it and a button subsequently appeared.
I had problems with the canker clearing w/spartrix, so I started looking @
the different supply houses and found a product called Ronsec. It is 25mg each of Ronidazole and Secnidazole in time released tablets made especially for resistant canker. Two treatments w/one day off imbetween. It worked well for the birds. With this situation, there was no bleeding whatsoever, however, there was a distinct change to the coloration around the lip area of the beak as well. In fact, the shape of the "lips" seemed to be changing. It was scarey.
This corrected as well w/the Ronsec.
I've seen that yellow caste since the first time it happened with a different
bird, and treated before waiting for a button to appear. Once again, the 
coloration returned to normal pink. Hope this helps.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pidgey and FP, 

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I gave Henny a spartrix tab this morning and when I looked in her mouth, it looked the same really, no growths though. 

Thanks FP for this specific insight. Where did you buy this Ronsec...which supply house. Also, do you know if it has to be given on an empty stomach? I'm finding this to be an inconvenience with the spartrix now that they are nesting.

Pidgey it was strange how you mentioned a spider bite though, because I've noticed that the pigeon room seems to have a lot of spiders in it. But there are always spiders in a basement!


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brad, 

Medpet puts it out, and Jedd's definitely was the supply house.

Directions:

Dose 1 tab per pigeon,450-500g bodyweight, on a full crop after feeding. Skip one day and repeat again on third day.

good luck


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

FP and all, 

It's almost comforting to know at least someone else has seen these "pre canker" symptoms before. I am still hoping that the spartrix will work this time but I'll place an order for the other med you recommended, FP. 

Which brings me to another question then about meds. Normally you'll be intructed to give 1 tablet per pigeon and this is what the spartrix says to give. Now, are they suggesting this dose for a homer or regular sized pigeon? Of course it doesn't mention this in the instructions. Medicines normally go by weight and my pigeons are much heavier. In the past and even now, I still only give them 1 pill each, perhaps this isn't enough. My pigeons are on between 850-950 grams. I'm always afraid of using too much because with meds, more isn't better. 

Thanks again,


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi folks,

Here is a link to an article on drug resistant canker strains that might be of 
interest especially regarding underdosing:

http://www.racingpigeonscienceproject.com/chalcanker1.htm

Brad, it's a valid point about weight and dosage that you raise. 
It might be a good idea to either inquire w/ distributor or manufacturer about 
exact dosing by weight for w/Spartrix, also, it would seem according to this article that the practice of dosing for only one day might not be a good idea even tho many do as a preventative. 

It's a good argument for using natural prevention as the standard and only
"dosing" when really needed.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks FP, 

I haven't had a chance yet to read that article in full, looks interesting. Hopefully none of this will be of a concern, and that the spartrix I'm giving will clear this up until I can figure out doses and receive the other medication. Thanks again for the information!


By the way, what would some natural remedies be for the prevention of canker?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Brad,

I personally don't see canker very much and when I do it's because of a new feral rescue. Generally I then treat with Emtryl in the water for three or four days but I don't unless I absolutely have to. Of course you know about the Boglin Marsh website. If memory serves, that fellow said that many of the pigeon diseases were best left in an equilibrium state. That is, it's ultimately better for the pigeon to have just enough live organisms of given diseases to maintain an immunity to them.

If you keep pigeons too clean (medically speaking), then when they do encounter something that they're not currently in equilibrium with, it can take 'em down fast. And, of course, for homing pigeons that's often the case when they get lost. They just don't have the immune system to cope with having to make their own way out in the wild.

But, to answer your question directly, a lot of homer people clean their waterers out and swish a little clorox into the cleaning water as they rinse it. Then they don't wash it out that much before they refill it. That keeps everything very clean and most bugs simply won't grow. 

And that's about all I've got to say about that.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> If memory serves, that fellow said that many of the pigeon diseases were best left in an equilibrium state. That is, it's ultimately better for the pigeon to have just enough live organisms of given diseases to maintain an immunity to them.Pidgey


Hi Pidgey, I do agree with this and I understand what you're saying. I think for the most part, coccidiosis and canker are the two things that the pigeons DO live with mostly in an equilibrium. These are two of the ailments that pigeons most often have and nearly all are affected. My birds are indoor pets and apart from when I first got them, they have had little in the way of meds for a couple of years now. 




Pidgey said:


> If you keep pigeons too clean (medically speaking), then when they do encounter something that they're not currently in equilibrium with, it can take 'em down fast. And, of course, for homing pigeons that's often the case when they get lost. They just don't have the immune system to cope with having to make their own way out in the wild.Pidgey


I also agree with this as well, most pigeons actually benefit from their own poops and will eat them to some degree for the beneficial bacterial within. As for keeping my pigeon room clean, I do. But I don't scrub floor to ceiling with borax 3 times a day either 



Pidgey said:


> But, to answer your question directly, a lot of homer people clean their waterers out and swish a little clorox into the cleaning water as they rinse it. Then they don't wash it out that much before they refill it. That keeps everything very clean and most bugs simply won't grow. Pidgey


For myself and the birds drinking containers, I scrub them out once per day in the mornings with antibacterial dish soap, dry throughly and that's it. I don't change the water more than once per day


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

I was able to get a picture of Henny's mouth, it's not the greatest but I think you'll be able to see the yellow areas. Today, her "lip area and the bottom corner of her beak didn't look as swollen and it's more purpleish now. I see some little 'bumps" at the top of her mouth that I didn't notice when I looked normally. However I was able to see it better with the camera and once the pic was blown up morej.

Can anyone see anything abnormal going on here?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Brad,

You may already be using them, but I have to ask...have you tried any of the natural remedies for building up your birds immune system, like the one Mary uses for pets? It works well with drugs and without, when you are not quite sure what is going on, and it won't hurt them at all.


Treesa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Treesa, 

Yes, I use all the standard things; ACV, probiotics, two different kinds of vitamins, garlic juice, halibot fish oil capsules, brewers yeast. I have a regiment in place


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I was able to get a picture of Henny's mouth, it's not the greatest but I think you'll be able to see the yellow areas. Today, her "lip area and the bottom corner of her beak didn't look as swollen and it's more purpleish now. I see some little 'bumps" at the top of her mouth that I didn't notice when I looked normally. However I was able to see it better with the camera and once the pic was blown up morej.
> 
> Can anyone see anything abnormal going on here?


Hi Brad,

Her poops are off, there is a yellowy area of tissue, or what looks to be on the left side of mouth where upper and lower beaks meet, and looks like you've got some "buttons" coming in. I'm wondering, is this while being on 
the Spartrix? And if so, how far into a three day treatment would that be?


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Fp,

Actually, Henny's poops aren't "off"...she's nesting and the droppings are to be expected. They don't smell and aren't even loose surprisingly. You're right about the yellowness though, glad you can see it. I was thinking that my picture was going to garnish a "that's it" response The mouth looks pretty good compared to some things I've and I'm sure others have seen. Just that I notice EVERYTHING odd when my birds are concerned. 

Henny's on day 2 of the spartrix tabs as of today. I thought I noticed "buttons" as well, but they are really small and not really detectable by the naked eye, least mine. I only saw them when I transferred the pics onto the computer and blew them up.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brad,

According to the article I posted link for, you should treat w/Spartrix for three days. Oddly enuf, I had two different packages of Jansens Spartrix on hand. One came w/regular order, but I had another fed-exed in meantime. The directions in first package said one to three days, but the insert in this package says just one day on and treat again when it arises again. 

I treated for three days w/Spartrix, and it didn't get rid of it. The doctor put them on Flagyll if I remember correctly, for five days, via crop. It still came
back. That's when I got the product I told you about and powdered the 
seeds w/DAC Metronidazole concurrently. It finally got knocked down and went away.

PS-Yes, the poops were in question because of nesting, but not necessarily
questionable...didn't mean to mistate that.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP,

Yes, this was my intent, a 3 day concurrent dosing with spartrix, this is the instructions on my package for outbreaks. I was going to order the Ronsec today, but I was unsure seeing all the products. I looked at the flagyll as well because I know it's good. I'm in a bit of a dilemma now because I want to treat all 4 birds, just to be on the safe side. Henny and Eggbert are the older pair that have had a hard life and probably are long time carriers of canker and who knows what else. However, their offspring....my two hand reared birds should probably be treated as well, they never have been. When I first got them from Mary's house at 3 mos. old, I immediately put them in together with Henny and Eggbert. The 4 of them were together for a few weeks before I realized it just wasn't working and I erected the wall/barrier to separate the two pairs. But I do worry about the younger birds being exposed to Henny & Eggbert's pathogens via drinking water and poops. I've found that the young birds don't take well to "foreign" substances. Recently I bought a new type of grit and gave it to the young birds. After ingesting a piece or two each, they both immediately tried to vomit. This has happened before as well with different food so I"m just concerned that pills might not work with them. I tell you, such worries and debating to figure out what is best!!!!


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I've been reading this thread but haven't weighed in because I hadn't seen anything quite like what you describe or the photo. But I have read that many strains of trich are now resistant to Spartrix and it can take four days or longer to cure it. I don't know about doses for larger birds...as someone else said, probably best to check with the manufacturer. Best of luck for Henny's recovery.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Birdmom

Somehow, I'll get through it with a little help from everyone here. If worse comes to worse, I wouldn't hessitate to take Henny to my vet for immediate treatment if it were necessary. It's an odd thing for sure and even though I'm well versed on many things, it's different when you don't have that clinical expertise to know what is going on.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brad,

The two I had this problem w/were not ferals, but originated w/a breeder. They moved into a room never before occupied by pigeons. 
The smaller of the two pigeons, threw up the Spartrix, although I didn't have the problem the Ronsec. I couldn't help but wonder if it was the secnidazole that made the difference as it's not as popular a drug choice for canker.

At any rate, I wish you the best of results for your birds, whatever course you choose.

fp

Adding a ps here, if you click on the product and read the write-up, it was 
formulated to deal w/resistant canker.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brad et al,

I was surfing again, and found this article on a new canker medication that has some interesting and hopeful prospects. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/DrNillsReither/devtrichomonas.cfm

The developement of this treatment is very promising as it so far looks like it irradicates the canker in addition to treating other common pigeon illnesses which they are still testing for. This medication, Berimax, is a plant extract and 
is currently available available for purchase here:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/sinornis/index.cfm

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks fp...!


This looks n---i---c---e !


I just ordered some to have on hand.


Good going!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Your welcome Phil!

Guess you might be the first on the block


----------



## rosey_love (Mar 21, 2004)

Can anyone find me a site on canker because im having a hard time finding some information on this.


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Brad,

I've been away with computer problems, but that's nothing compared to the problem you've been having! I had a thought on why you could be having a canker problem now. Mary raised your babies and her birds fed them the first few days. This gave them valuable pigeon milk which helped them grow up big and strong. However, it also innoculated them with THAT particular strain of trich which would most probably be different from what your original pair would be carrying.

When a bird is under stress, it is more likely to shed trich. The babies have experienced the stress of hormone fluctuations normal as they mature. Even though you have the pairs separated, there have been occasions when they interact, so exposure could have happened then.

With my six birds, I have at least four very different strains of trich and it has taken some time to get things under control. If I had to do it over again, I would give all the birds treatment for trich to get levels low before putting the birds together. Even then, several treatments might be necessary before the birds could establish an equilibrium.

Good luck with your flock. I know you will do whatever you can to help them!


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

First of all...welcome back! Glad you got your computer problems straightened out

Secondly, your detective work on how and why Henny might have come down with canker now is BRILLIANT!!!! I Think this could be right! I thought about these things back when I first brought them home but they seemed so healthy and robust that I didn't think it was an issue. I was more concerned about what Henny and Eggbert might give to the youngsters. I had figured that Henny and Eggbert were "clean" though as well by this point too. But you are absolutely right that Mary's pigeons would been carrying a different strain than Henny & Eggbert. 

I am still not entirely sure that it is canker because 1) I've never seen canker in my birds before and 2) there are still no growths or nodules in Henny's mouth. Her mouth has still got a yellowish cast to the outer edges of the top section of her beak. But what else could it be?

Just an update for everyone:

I finished the 3 days of spartrix for Henny and I've been checking her mouth. There are no signs of any fresh or dried blood anymore. The feathers have come clean around her mouth as well. She seems to be totally fine in her behaviour, poops are very good as well. She abandoned her nest on Monday so I've been able to see her eat and poop normally again and all does seem fine. Just the colouring to her mouth hasn't really changed back to a nice solid pink.

Thanks again for all the assistance and advice everyone!


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi Brad,

Something just occurred to me when you mentioned her mouth still not being the normal bright pink. My rehabber friend once told me that in waterfowl (we were discussing a sick goose at the time) a pale mouth was a sign of anemia. Is it possible Henny is anemic? A blood test from the vet might be in order and I'm sure you'd want to be careful about iron supplements, but again, your vet could advise you in that regard. Does Henny get enough natural sunlight to produce Vitamin D? Because without it she may not be absorbing iron properly, which could lead to anemia.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Birdmom, 

Well, all the birds are indoor birds so true exposure to natural daylight is not possible. The birds are on two different multivitamins however and they also have a full spectrum light in their room. Now I'm not sure about anemia or how this fits in here. Her mouth isn't really pale, it's just got a yellow tint to certain sections of it. Otherwise her mouth doesn't look any different from the other birds mouths.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I just thought it might be a possibility--something to ask your vet about if you take her in. I know you give your pigeons excellent care, including supplements.

Last year I had an 8-week-old with such a bad case of canker he nearly died, but I couldn't see it by looking in his mouth because he didn't have any lesions there. It was in his esophagus. In fact I've never seen it in any of my pigeons' mouths, but obviously we had it! It can be sneaky.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Birdmom, 


Yes, you're right...I suppose it could be down the throat further into the oesophagus. I am going to treat Henny with another canker med when I get it and see if that will help. In the meantime, I'll be monitoring her activities, behaviour and poops. 

Good job you were on top of the situation with your 8 week old youngster, and you're an excellent caregiver to your birds as well


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks, Brad! Yeah, I've missed connecting with this community. Glad to know that Henny is feeling better!  I wonder if her egg laying stressed her system and that is why none of the others exhibited a problem? You could ask her, but I doubt she'd share that info! 

From what Birdmom mentioned, it seems like we need to become detectives to keep ahead of the health issues! We know that cheesy growths in the mouth are only one manifestation of canker growth. From what I've read, due to widely-used meds, this is no longer commonly seen in well-cared for birds. However, there are numerous other strains that are internal and quite virulent. When I was sorting out this problem with my birds, I happened to pick up Piper just after he had bathed (still wet). He is a white bird and I could clearly see yellow blotches here and through the skin covering his crop! Even after the canker was (I presume) killed by the meds, it took a while for the tissue to return to normal color.

I guess one advantage of only having a few birds is that you can know them really well and notice right away when a problem appears!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TerriB said:


> I guess one avantage of only having a few birds is that you can know them really well and notice right away when a problem appears!


Hi TerriB!

Glad to see your back.

Just want to say I have 50 birds now, and I know them all really well, and I can usually spot a problem right away. Each bird is different and unique, but because I know them and spend time watching them everyday, it is easy with 50 birds as well. It just depends on how much time you spend with them.

Treesa


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

We have about 70 pigeons now and over 80 birds total. I try to make sure I watch each and every one closely and I handle them regularly. Some days I'm rushed because of other obligations (I do actually have a life apart from my birds) but I try to look at and listen to every one. I watch for at least a few minutes after I put the feed out to make sure everyone comes to eat. I think regular cleaning is very important too, not just for the obvious sanitary reasons, but because you quickly notice bad-looking droppings when you clean your loft or cage on a daily basis. It's easier when you have just a few, but you can apply the same priciples when you have a big flock.


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

It makes sense that with more experience you quickly spot the slightly abnormal. I'm still learning what is normal, so six is a good number for me. That's why I really appreciate it when you all share your stories!

One of my Christmas presents last year was electricity in the coop and that has been a huge help. Even now, I usually turn on the light when cleaning in the morning, so I can see if anything is out of the ordinary. The other thing that I have found very helpful is keeping a journal. By checking back, I can see if something is a recurring cycle or normal seasonal change.


----------

