# How does calcutta's and pooling work?



## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

Want to know if you have info. Thanks.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Pooling>> Wagering on your entry,,Most start with $1 and could go as high as $100 or more depending on how big the Futurity or One loft race is...Most Pools pay 10 to 1...

Calcutta >> Lofts bid on birds or lofts to win the race...Example: If you think one of Alamo`s birds will win the race,you bid on a certain bird of his,or if Alamo is flying his birds,you may bid on his loft at auction...So even though your own pigeon or loft does not win or place high enough to win any $$$,if you are the high bidder on Alamo`s loft,you will win the 1st place loft Calcutta...If Alamo is 2nd,you will get the 2nd place winnings,etc etc etc....
Hope Alamo wins something this year again, as he did last year !!! hahahahahaha!!!!


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Just a little FYI here. This is technically illeagal in most, if not all states in the country. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen all the time, but it is gambling and can be prosecuted. 

Participate at your own risk.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Just a little FYI here. This is technically illeagal in most, if not all states in the country. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen all the time, but it is gambling and can be prosecuted.
> 
> Participate at your own risk.
> 
> Dan



 !!!

Yes, some states regulate this closely. Bill Halter of the Loft Stormers from Iowa found out the other day, that if he sells tickets to raise money for a local medical center, in which the bird's band number is printed on the ticket, and they are sold at a local fair. With $7 going to the medical center charity, and $3 going to the person who bought the ticket with the winning bird from some future race....he must acquire a special "Gambling Permit", and fill out half a dozen forms in triplicate, and jump through some hoops.

Our combine discontinued gambling years ago.

Our Commonwelath of Pennnsyvania has taken over all the vice for themselves....the numbers racket...horse racing....slot machines...all hard stuff sold through state owned stores, etc. All others are highly regulated, like the local church bingo...state officials don't want anyone to cut into their "take" when it comes to vice.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I agree Warren. What they deem illegal for the taxpayer is a good source of tax revenue for the government.


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Pool all the way through baby!!! So you guys are saying if all goes well before the "main race" in the winners cup that you 2 won't pool?"if there is pooling" How many birds in that race? 500? Anyone can win.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

[MN]eXist^_^ said:


> Pool all the way through baby!!! So you guys are saying if all goes well before the "main race" in the winners cup that you 2 won't pool?"if there is pooling" How many birds in that race? 500? Anyone can win.


No actually, I can say for a certainty that regardless of how things play out, I will not be pooling. It is a personal choice for me. I have nothing against others doing as they see fit. It is just not something I will be engaging in. I only posted the above as a source of information that people may not realize. I am all for personal choice. I just would hate for someone to be hauled of to court for something they had no idea might get them in trouble.

Good luck to all.

Dan


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I agree Dan. With just about every city, county, state, and the feds running budget deficits, they will will be looking to collect money from any avenue they can. They would rather fine you that put you in the slammer. A fine is revenue, where as incarceration is an expense.


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

All the races should discontinue these pools and calcutta's if they are illegal. It puts people at risk. 

A family friend who owns a local bar got fined during the superbowl. You know those squares we all play at the office, well, he had one going in the bar and got popped by an undercover. 

At the high school football games, we have a 50/50 raffle...50% of the collected money goes to the winning ticket holder, 50% goes to wherever it goes to. This is gambling.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

It wouldn't surprise me if some of those undercover agents participate in pools with their friends and others, but are ordered by their supervisors to bust other pools. I bet the ones that got busted just got fined($$$$$), as the treasury of the city, county, or state loves revenue. It seems to me that there are bigger issues than busting sporting pools, with all of the real crime abounding out there. They need to concentrate on drugs and gangs, which are decaying the american culture. They don't go after all of the big drug dealers, as I would not be surprised at all that they bribe our politicians and police to leave them alone. Yes, money can corrupt, but lets beat up on the little guy, Joe sixpack.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If you think pooling is a no no,don`t do it...At our club,we have a 3 bird for $5 pool,and a $1 pick red pool....Not exactly what I call gambling...What about the IF and AU Convention races..Does anyone here send birds ??? Isn`t this BIG time gambling ?? The 2009 IF race has 1240+ entries @ $125.00 each..That`s what I call gambling..Not a $5 pool or a $1 pool as our club does....
What about ALL those ONE LOFT races you send your birds to ?? Gambling ?? 
You betcha life it is !!!!!!.................Alamo


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Alamo said:


> If you think pooling is a no no,don`t do it...At our club,we have a 3 bird for $5 pool,and a $1 pick red pool....Not exactly what I call gambling...What about the IF and AU Convention races..Does anyone here send birds ??? Isn`t this BIG time gambling ?? The 2009 IF race has 1240+ entries @ $125.00 each..That`s what I call gambling..Not a $5 pool or a $1 pool as our club does....
> What about ALL those ONE LOFT races you send your birds to ?? Gambling ??
> You betcha life it is !!!!!!.................Alamo



Say what you want, but IF you get caught.............I know a club up in MI that had this problem a few years ago. One of the members got pissed off about something so he turned them in. Apparently told the officers WHERE and WHEN he could catch the guys betting. They walked into the club house right in the middle of everything and confiscated ALL money...all paperwork and shut them down. There was a BIG court battle to the tune of 1000's of $$'s.............it wasn't pretty.
And as far as I know, the bigger races also have to winners of the big money prizes fill out a form (1099? maybe) and the money they win is reported to the government and taxes are paid on it.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Alamo said:


> If you think pooling is a no no,don`t do it...At our club,we have a 3 bird for $5 pool,and a $1 pick red pool....Not exactly what I call gambling...What about the IF and AU Convention races..Does anyone here send birds ??? Isn`t this BIG time gambling ?? The 2009 IF race has 1240+ entries @ $125.00 each..That`s what I call gambling..Not a $5 pool or a $1 pool as our club does....
> What about ALL those ONE LOFT races you send your birds to ?? Gambling ??
> You betcha life it is !!!!!!.................Alamo


Not to stir the pot here, but there is a big difference between entering the AU or IF races, or for that matter any one loft or futurity event, and pooling. Paying an entry fee to participate is in no way gambling on who will win. These are two very different things. We pay to participate in a lot of things. Soccer, baseball, basketball, etc, etc leagues for our kids require entry fees to participate. We are not, however, gambling on who wins the games.

Let's not confuse the issue here. There is a difference between entry fees and pooling.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Not to stir the pot here, but there is a big difference between entering the AU or IF races, or for that matter any one loft or futurity event, and pooling. Paying an entry fee to participate is in no way gambling on who will win. These are two very different things. We pay to participate in a lot of things. Soccer, baseball, basketball, etc, etc leagues for our kids require entry fees to participate. We are not, however, gambling on who wins the games.
> 
> Let's not confuse the issue here. There is a difference between entry fees and pooling.
> 
> Dan


Yep I agree !

BIG difference between taking your race horse to the track and paying an entry fee to enter the race, and then it's another issue to walk up to the betting counter and placing a bet on your horse. Huge legal difference.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

So, I guess you want me to beleive that NOBODY who enters their birds, in the AU or IF Conventions, wagers on their bird the day of shipping ??? I have a video of the Snowbird shipping,and they had pooling that would make James Paul Getty look like a pauper..And at one time,he was the richest man in the USA....I jave entered my two pigeons in this years IF race for one reason,just as all the other Lofts have..TO WIN MONEY...I am gambling that my pigeons will beat the other 1250+ entries...And you tell me that`s not gambling ??? You can`t compare horse racing with pigeon racing...Probally 95% or more of the lofts who race pigeons are doing it as a hobby....So that`s what makes it gambling when you enter a money race...In horse racing,95% of the owners are racing horses for a living,and that`s why the entry fee`s are not considered wagering...Think about it for a minute.....Alamo


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

So Alamo, is this REALLY the place to bring this up? Dave


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Alamo said:


> So, I guess you want me to beleive that NOBODY who enters their birds, in the AU or IF Conventions, wagers on their bird the day of shipping ??? I have a video of the Snowbird shipping,and they had pooling that would make James Paul Getty look like a pauper..And at one time,he was the richest man in the USA....I jave entered my two pigeons in this years IF race for one reason,just as all the other Lofts have..TO WIN MONEY...I am gambling that my pigeons will beat the other 1250+ entries...And you tell me that`s not gambling ??? You can`t compare horse racing with pigeon racing...Probally 95% or more of the lofts who race pigeons are doing it as a hobby....So that`s what makes it gambling when you enter a money race...In horse racing,95% of the owners are racing horses for a living,and that`s why the entry fee`s are not considered wagering...Think about it for a minute.....Alamo


You are confusing emotion with the law. I am not saying that anything you have stated above doesn't happen. It always has and probably always will. However, that doesn't make it legal. Paying an entry fee to participate in an event _*is not *_gambling in the eyes of the law. Winning prize money for said event _*is not *_gambling in the eyes of the law. Filling out a pool sheet and laying your money down saying a certain bird is going to win _*is*_ gambling in the eyes of the law. 

Like I said in an earlier post, I am all for personal choice. I am not breaking any law to pay money to enter an event. Nor am I breaking any law in cashing that check when my bird wins (let's hope!) as long as I fill out the appropriate paper work and pay the appropriate taxes involved. However, I am most deffinitely breaking several laws by participating in any pooling activities, and in doing so, run the risk of prosecution. 

It is really pretty cut and dry here. I don't see where the confusion is taking place. It is what it is and wishing it were something else is of no consequence. If you want to pool your birds, by all means, go right ahead. Odds are, you probably won't get caught. All I am saying is that it is a gamble (no pun intended) that people need to be aware of.

Dan


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

windaidedaviary said:


> All the races should discontinue these pools and calcutta's if they are illegal. It puts people at risk.
> 
> A family friend who owns a local bar got fined during the superbowl. You know those squares we all play at the office, well, he had one going in the bar and got popped by an undercover.
> 
> At the high school football games, we have a 50/50 raffle...50% of the collected money goes to the winning ticket holder, 50% goes to wherever it goes to. This is gambling.


As a side note to this particular post. In Georgia, raffles are considered gambling but you can apply for a permit through the Sheriff's office. We did this when the high school band I was the director of raffled off a Harley Davidson Fatboy as a fundraiser. We had specific guidelines we had to follow but it was legal and legit. By the way, the permit itself was free. Great fundraiser by the way. We made over $8000 for the band and the winner of the Harley was a recently divorced single mom who had three kids and only bought one ticket the night before the raffle closed. She immediately sold it for $17,000 cash!

Dan


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well here goes my two cents worth (big bet). First lets go back to the question in the first post. POOLING there are two types of pooling that take place at some of these races. The 10 for1 and the Winner take all, in the 10for1 depending on how much money is taken in there can be more then one winner I will use the 1 dollar pool as an example lets say that 100 dollars is taken in. Those that run the race take 15% of that 100 leaving 85 dollars thats is now what that pool is worth we can have 9 winners the first 8 get 10 dollars back and the 9 guy gets 5 dollars back.This is the way it works for the 5,10,20,50 and 100 dollar pools Keep in mind that the people running the race take their 15% cut of every pool.So much for the 10 for1pools. Now lets look at the winner take all , I will use the same example as used in the 10 for 1. The 1dollar winner take all has 100 dollars less 15% for a 85 dollar pool here the first bird in takes it all. remember the HOUSE TAKES ITS 15% OF ALL THESE POOL. at one of the SNOWBIRD races that I attended there was a 1,000 dollar winner take all pool and there were 13 people in it.NOW THE KICKER HERE IS YOUR BIRD IS RACING AGAINST ONLY THOSE BIRDS ENTERED IN THAT POOL,as I recall the year that I was there the guy that won that pool(1,000). His bird was 15 minutes behind the bird that won the race.I will stop for now and will come back in a few days to talk about the Calcutter. I feel that many people that enter these races are looking to walk off with a sizeable piece of change. But in fact do not know what its all about.*GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> ....So that`s what makes it gambling when you enter a money race...In horse racing,95% of the owners are racing horses for a living,and that`s why the entry fee`s are not considered wagering...Think about it for a minute.....Alamo


 I think paying an "entry fee" to a college in the hope that the kid will get an education which will make a difference is a "gamble" also. 

Perhaps you should have gone to law school, where such fine distinctions can be discussed in a class room setting. If you feel that such activity is "gambling" then perhaps you should write your state representative in your state, and have the law changed. As it stands in my state, entry fees to enter competition, does not fall under gaming laws.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

windaidedaviary said:


> All the races should discontinue these pools and calcutta's if they are illegal. It puts people at risk.


 *Hi Windaidedaviary, First I am not a big fan of these big money races BUT if someome enjoys them and they want to pool and calcutter,its their money that they might be throwing away.I will say this people that enter these things should their homework and find out what its all about. I also should add that these races are set up to make money for those that hold them and the take from pools and calcutters is a big part of that take about 15% in most cases. there is one other thing that I feel has been overlooked here when the AU or IF have their convenion races these races are in fact put on by a local club or combine and they are the ones that do the pooling and calcutters, because this is an other way to make money for the combine or club that in fact holds the race.*GEORGE


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

The au gives about 30g's to the host club or combine.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

From what I have seen/read etc...The big $$ races hand out 1099 forms I think to the winners to fill out,so they can pay the taxes on the $$ won...I`m not sure what the criteria is for how much $$ is won,before you have to claim it on your taxes...I think they do this to cover their behinds...I don`t think they care if you pay taxes or not on your winnings...
How many posts have you seen/read here on how popular the one loft races are here in the USA ??? Why do you think they are so popular ??? Would fame and money be the answer ??? If you win the AU or IF Convention,you will get people calling you so they could buy YB`s or breeders from you...It`s all about the money..I`m not condoning gambling,or hitting on it..My wife like to go and play the 1 cent one arm bandits..I don`t like them,I don`t like betting on horses,and I don`t bet on any sports teams etc...
I don`t mind spending 5 or 6 dollars on pooling my pigeon...And according to the state tax codes in my state,you don`t have to pay taxes,on any winnings under $600.00.....So I guess it`s OK to pool here,as long as you pay taxes on any winnings over $600.00.......6 to 10 lofts @ $6 = $60.00 max.....I`m sure not worried about doing jail time for maybe winning $25.00....Alamo


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Alamo said:


> From what I have seen/read etc...The big $$ races hand out 1099 forms I think to the winners to fill out,so they can pay the taxes on the $$ won...I`m not sure what the criteria is for how much $$ is won,before you have to claim it on your taxes...I think they do this to cover their behinds...I don`t think they care if you pay taxes or not on your winnings...
> How many posts have you seen/read here on how popular the one loft races are here in the USA ??? Why do you think they are so popular ??? Would fame and money be the answer ??? If you win the AU or IF Convention,you will get people calling you so they could buy YB`s or breeders from you...It`s all about the money..I`m not condoning gambling,or hitting on it..My wife like to go and play the 1 cent one arm bandits..I don`t like them,I don`t like betting on horses,and I don`t bet on any sports teams etc...
> I don`t mind spending 5 or 6 dollars on pooling my pigeon...And according to the state tax codes in my state,you don`t have to pay taxes,on any winnings under $600.00.....So I guess it`s OK to pool here,as long as you pay taxes on any winnings over $600.00.......6 to 10 lofts @ $6 = $60.00 max.....I`m sure not worried about doing jail time for maybe winning $25.00....Alamo


No, what the government is saying is that you can earn up to $600 in WINNINGS without paying taxes. They are not saying that you can win up to $600 by pooling or betting. Again, that is an illeagal activity wheras the winning of prize money is not. These are two different things. You can not lump them in together.

Dan


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, i did better at pooling than Wining Races, NEVER saw a 1099... Dave


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I know that at casinos in vegas or other areas, they have to cut a 1099 if winnings are over I believe $1100.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> From what I have seen/read etc...The big $$ races hand out 1099 forms I think to the winners to fill out,so they can pay the taxes on the $$ won...I`m not sure what the criteria is for how much $$ is won,before you have to claim it on your taxes...I think they do this to cover their behinds...I don`t think they care if you pay taxes or not on your winnings...
> How many posts have you seen/read here on how popular the one loft races are here in the USA ??? Why do you think they are so popular ??? Would fame and money be the answer ??? If you win the AU or IF Convention,you will get people calling you so they could buy YB`s or breeders from you...It`s all about the money..I`m not condoning gambling,or hitting on it..My wife like to go and play the 1 cent one arm bandits..I don`t like them,I don`t like betting on horses,and I don`t bet on any sports teams etc...
> I don`t mind spending 5 or 6 dollars on pooling my pigeon...And according to the state tax codes in my state,you don`t have to pay taxes,on any winnings under $600.00.....So I guess it`s OK to pool here,as long as you pay taxes on any winnings over $600.00.......6 to 10 lofts @ $6 = $60.00 max.....I`m sure not worried about doing jail time for maybe winning $25.00....Alamo


Alamo,

Perhaps we are getting OT...

I sort of have to agree with you....I have CPA's and bankers that do my taxes, they said my tax status was as a pigeon "Professional" in other words winnings are set against expenses, and I can tell you I reinvest every nickel from any race winnings or bird sales and then some. I would have to hit a BIG win in order to have tax liabilities, but boy oh boy...I love those kind of liabilities !! Last year, someone won $160,000 at the World Ace Challenge with a 1/2 Ludo. Now, I am working middle class enough to get excited about winning one like that !! I am sure my hat size would swell even more !!

The money would simply go to my Uncle Sam and my State, most likely the fancier with some star racer or breeder, and a few nephews with great ambition but with little resources, so a "donation" to some institution of higher learning. 

The real pay off in my devious mind, would be in the bragging rights ! No telling what resources might be thrown at trying to win some sort of "Breeders Cup" ? Not every choice has to be an economical one. There are sometimes very strong emotions involved in winning something. I personally have not met any winners who did not have a high degree of self confidence, and a burning desire to win. I personally hate to lose.

But, this is OT, and I question a thread on what might be illegal in some areas ? Might have to think about this....


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Warren,I`m with you.....I hate to lose also....At our club,we have a $1.00 red pick bird..and usually there are 4 maybe 5 guys picking a Red of theirs...My problem,I shipped 10 Red`s last weekend...I never seem to pick the right one...A guy from our club has a Dun Check Cock...He wins my $1 every week in OB`s....I hate it !!!....Going broke again !!! Will have to put this down as expenses on my taxes....$9.00....That`s if maybe I get lucky and win one !!....hahahahaha!!!!......Alamo


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm thinking this really shouldn't be discussed on an open forum. All we need is the wrong person to happen apon this and read about what is going on and there could be some unwanted publicity. But maybe it'll be a good thing if this sport got some publicity good or bad.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Just a thought here...If I entered a RC pigeon in my club race,and the ENTRY fee is $1 for entering,and 1st prize for the 1st RED pigeon clocked,this is not Pooling !!! So I guess we do not (pool) in my Club OR Combine !!!....And the 3 birds for $5 would be the same..It`s a race within a race,so it`s not pooling...Our combine has special races,and you pay an entry fee if you wish to enter the race...So all is legit !!!.....Alamo


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Alamo said:


> So, I guess you want me to beleive that NOBODY who enters their birds, in the AU or IF Conventions, wagers on their bird the day of shipping ??? I have a video of the Snowbird shipping,and they had pooling that would make James Paul Getty look like a pauper..And at one time,he was the richest man in the USA....I jave entered my two pigeons in this years IF race for one reason,just as all the other Lofts have..TO WIN MONEY...I am gambling that my pigeons will beat the other 1250+ entries...And you tell me that`s not gambling ??? You can`t compare horse racing with pigeon racing...Probally 95% or more of the lofts who race pigeons are doing it as a hobby....So that`s what makes it gambling when you enter a money race...In horse racing,95% of the owners are racing horses for a living,and that`s why the entry fee`s are not considered wagering...Think about it for a minute.....Alamo


Look, I am all about individual freedom. If some people want to gamble then it is their choice, (legal or not). That choice does not effect me and my freedoms so I personally do not care, but they also must accept responsibility for their actions if the choice was an illegal one. Just bare in mind ignorance is not a good legal defense for breaking the law. If another person chooses not to gamble that too is an individual freedom and their right. So nothing is gained in this discussion.

God Bless and may the best bird win,
all bets are off,
Tony


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Big T said:


> Look, I am all about individual freedom. If some people want to gamble then it is their choice, (legal or not). That choice does not effect me and my freedoms so I personally do not care, but they also must accept responsibility for their actions if the choice was an illegal one. Just bare in mind ignorance is not a good legal defense for breaking the law. If another person chooses not to gamble that too is an individual freedom and their right. So nothing is gained in this discussion.
> 
> God Bless and may the best bird win,
> all bets are off,
> Tony


I agree 100%.

I only pointed this out because we have people here on pigeon talk that are both ignorant and naive. I only brought it up to try to educate them and make sure they were aware of the realities.

Gamble away for all I care! No skin off my nose.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I have given this topic a lot of consideration. I have taken my time about it also. I am of the thinking that there are very few areas of the country where this activity is legal. Perhaps in Nevada ? Most States highly regulate games of chance. I was thinking that actual gambling by way of pools and the like were discarded decades ago. I know our Combine removed such things back in the 1960's. I thought these discussions were of an historical nature. Sharing information on what is illegal in many areas of the USA and the World, and placing it here, on the World wide Internet for all to see, just may not be in the best interests of Pigeon Talk. As apparently some here were inquiring about these things, not out of historical interest, but to actually engage in gambling activity, I think it is best we close this subject and this thread.


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