# Bumblefoot or ??



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Happy Easter, everyone! I've been real busy and haven't been on here in weeks.

My little American Fantail hen has what appeared to be a hardened, dried dropping stuck to the bottom of her foot. I thought I could just soak her foot and remove it, but when I examined her, it appears there's a crusty, whitish growth on the bottom of her foot, to which feces had adhered. I was not able to remove it for fear of harming her. 

I plan to call my vet tomorrow, but was wondering if any of you had seen this before. I've never seen bumblefoot, so I don't know if that's what this is. It's really not swollen, just thickened and crusty. She is not limping or favoring the foot and seems otherwise healthy and vigorous. She and her mate have a 3 1/2 week old baby. I'm not sure exactly when the problem started, because she was spending a lot of time on the nest, but I know she didn't have the foot problem before they nested. 

Thanks,
Cathy


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Cathy,
I have no idea what that could be.
I would still soak the foot, even wash it with Dawn and see what happens. Just don't force to remove anything that does not come out by washing. 
Reti


----------



## Thunderbird (Sep 7, 2003)

It sounds like bumblefoot, you can work it down by rubbing in vitamin E oil daily. Takes 2-3 weeks.


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

There is upside and no downside to sponging with hydrogen peroxide (while cortisone creams should not be used on our birds for any injury).


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I soaked her foot again today with warm water and mineral salts and we gently scrubbed it with a toothbrush, but weren't able to remove much material. (I told her she was our only pigeon to get a pedicure.) There are a couple cracks in her foot and we put antibiotic ointment on them. 

I looked at her other foot and she has some crusty material on a couple of her toes. Her mate's feet are perfectly clean. Anyway, I'm going to take her to the vet and see what she thinks. She's favoring the foot now, but I think it's from our ministrations.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello,

I've seen this before abour 2 years ago, I had a feral with poop stuck to the bottom of one foot, he finally got caught in the trap and when I checked his foot out after picking all the poop off I saw this little moon shape that was black and the bottom of the foot was really swollen.
I prepared a bowl of salt water, I held him for about 10 minutes every hour in this bowl so his leg can soak, meanwhile he got antibiotics (baytril, 5 ml/12 h) and antibiotic cream (polysporin) on the cut when it was not soaking.
I wrapped the foot so he couldn't step in the food with the polysporin.

Every day the would got better until finally the swelling went down and the healing started, in about a month he was fine and was released again!

If you can try the salt water thing, it really helps and Sporty just loved his foot being soaked, it felt really good and the salt cleans the area and draws out the infection.

Mary


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just a point of clarification here .. before giving 5 ml of Baytril to a bird be sure you know what strength of Baytril you have. Baytril commonly comes in a 22.7 mg per ml strength or in 22.7 mg tablets. I think Mary probably meant to type .5 ml for the dose.

Terry


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I get those decimal points wrong too!

Terry is right. I happen to have two bottles of Baytril but the solution in one is 4 times stronger than the other!!!!!!

The dose for the 2.5% solution is 0.1 ml for every 100gms of pigeon. So a 400 g pigeon would get 0.4 ml twice a day.

Cynthia


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have Baytril on hand that I bought from Foy's for emergencies, and it has dilution instructions on the bottle. However, I don't see any sign of actual infection on Duchess' foot, so I'm going to hold off on that. 

She has an appointment with my favorite avian vet tomorrow. I'll soak and clean her foot again today and apply more antibiotic ointment to make sure it doesn't get infected. I sprayed her for mites, too. I'm wondering if she has scaly mites on her legs and feet. I remember our chickens used to get them and it caused scaly, crusty feet.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

sorry I meant Mg, I have 50 mg tablets and I cut them in 8 pieces (6 mg)

Mary



[This message has been edited by maryco (edited April 12, 2004).]


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Bad news--the vet thinks it might be pox! Needless to say, I'm upset. Duchess and her mate live in a separate aviary, but it's close to the loft, so I'm worried. The vet took a fecal sample and will biopsy Duchess' foot tomorrow. She would have done it today, but it was late and she has to sedate her to do it. We felt it best to let her go home to her mate (they have a four week old chick). She has no lesions around her eyes, just the crusty stuff on her feet. 

Have any of you seen a case of pigeon pox? Because I haven't. The vet and I are hoping she's wrong and it's actually bumblefoot. She said they can look quite similar.

[This message has been edited by Birdmom4ever (edited April 13, 2004).]


----------



## Chikory's Inner Chicken (Apr 13, 2004)

One of my pigeons, Brownie, recently had bumblefoot. What you are discribing dosn't sound like it though. Another option the vet looked at when trying desipher what it was Brownie had said it might have been gout. Dunno how to spell that. That's actually worse than bumblefoot though. Brownie had to have an operation on both his feet to get it removed, hes ok now. But I've never herd of soaking and rubbing to get it out as it's under the skin, you must cut into the foot to get it out. 

Anyway, I also had 2 pigeons with pigeon pox. I was told they don't get it after a certain age, only young pigeons get it. With older ones it is more rare. Theirs went away with very little trouble, we used iodine. Then again the vet was not too sure then either, so it may have been somthing else. They find when people bring birds in they get them put down if the problem isn't easily fixed (birds are cheaper than dogs, thats why). So I guess the vet should be paying me! I seem to be letting them get some training done with my birds. Anywho, I hope all works out well with your pigeon and that she is ok.

~Chikory


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks, Chikory, that helps. This little hen is probably about a year old and I've had her for 3 1/2 months. When your pigeons had pox, did they have lesions on their faces, or just on their feet? Duchess doesn't have anything on her face. Everything I read last night about pox said they usually have lesions on their faces. I'm really hoping this isn't pox.

Their baby is fine so far. We don't have any other really young pigeons.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Birdmom,

Here is some information if it is pox:

My pigeons had a sample of it from the pox vaccination, on their legs. It is a yellow hard bump. If you live in a mosquito climate you should immunize your babies at 6 weeks.
Yes, they can get it in their face, crusty lesions around the eyes, around the beak, on the feet, and around the anus, in full outbreak.

It is transmitted via saliva droplets, from the nose and mouth, seldom from droppings. 
Here in Florida it is transmitted via mosquito bite. Once they have had pox they are immune to it.


I'm sure your vet will treat for secondary bacterial infections with an antibiotic. You can use topical treatment of tea tree oil, except around the eyes or mouth.

Treesa


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi, Treesa. From what you say, it sounds suspiciously like pox. We have some mosquitoes, though not in huge numbers, and we've had an unusually warm spring. How likely do you think it is that the others will get it? Duchess, her mate and chick are in an aviary a few feet from the loft, so there's been no sharing of food, water or anything else. 

I asked the vet if I should vaccinate the others, but she said it was too late. (Now of course I'm royally kicking myself for not vaccinating them.) I'll ask her today if there's any actual harm in vaccinating the other pigeons. I should think it would be worth it to vaccinate at least the four pigeons in cages on the patio, far from the aviary. And it's possible even the loft pigeons haven't been exposed, unless via mosquito bite. So far, everyone looks okay, but I realize they may simply not be symptomatic yet.

Duchess herself does not seem lethargic or in any way different than she normally is. She's not even favoring the foot in question.


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

You might consider the vaccination--since the disease vector is not through water or droppings and your other birds may be clean and ready for the MBL treatment.

Siegel's says to leave it be and the lumps will go from whitish to yellow, dry up and fall off--better than pulling them off and traumatizing the tissue.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It is a very easy brush on vaccination. I have never had any problems with my youngsters vaccinations, they usually just get one pox on the one leg where the vaccination was applied. They do not get the full blown disease itself, and didn't suffer the effects. I noticed a couple of them not so active for one ot two days, and that was all. 

If you pox one you should do them all at the same time, as they are contagious. Birds that are poxed must stay indoors for at least six weeks after application. 

Keep them on a good nutritious diet and make sure they get their vitamins. 

Since I live in Florida it is just a part of their preventive maintenance program, and every bird I have has already been poxed or will be poxed.

Treesa


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thank you for the good advice. The mistake I made was believing that pox wasn't a big problem in this part of the country. I should have done it before we let them have babies this spring. We have six chicks on the way now. I assume I should wait, then, until after they hatch? Because if vaccinating the parents makes them contagious, wouldn't the newly hatched chicks be vulnerable?

We still aren't sure that Duchess has pox, and we won't get results from the biopsy until next week. In the meantime, the vet performed surgery on her feet (the left foot had a few bumps, too, though not as many as her right). They made little "sandals" for her out of foam padding and neon pink vet wrap. She appears to be wearing platform shoes--it's hysterical. She has to go back twice a week for four weeks for a foot wash and shoe change. She is also on oral antibiotics. She will be a very expensive little pij when this is all over, but everyone at the vet's office has fallen in love with her. She's a very good patient and doesn't struggle at all when I give her the medication. 

She is managing ok with her shoes. Fantails kind of toddle around anyway, so you can imagine how she walks with platform shoes! I'll try to get some pictures today and post them.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad you took her to the vet. How adorable the little fan tail must look in her platform shoes.. Please do take pictures and share.LOL

I wouldn't pox anybody until the babies are six weeks old and can be poxed also. You should do all of them at the same time, as it is contagious, and they need to stay in for 6 weeks. If you do only the breeders they would have to be isolated from their young, and there is no way you can do that when they are feeding their babies.

Get your veterenarians advice on all this, also.

Treesa


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Yep, that's what I was thinking, Treesa. I'm going to ask her before I vaccinate. Something that has held me back from vaccinating is that we now have several special needs pigeons with health issues, and I'm afraid to vaccinate because of possible risk to their fragile systems. Will discuss this with the vet, too.

My hubby and I are hopeful it isn't pox because we think the baby would have been sick by now if it was. Anyway, that's what we're hoping.

I took pictures! Check out my new webshots album, "Fancy Pigeons," to see Duchess' boots. http://community.webshots.com/user/birdmom4ever 

Some of you probably remember the fancy pigeons that were abandoned in a park in San Jose last year. The senior Archangels and red fantails were among those pigeons. The white fantail and Capuchine were given to me by friends.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Again,

Do you have a seperate coop for the special needs pigeons, where they aren't near the others? If they already have health issues, I don't think at this time they should get the vaccination.

I have a special retirement cage for my old, retired,show, and handicapped pigeons. I keep them out of the "fast lane". ..you know... away from my flying machines.

I'm going go check out your pigeons now.

God bless you for helping the pigeons in the park!

Treesa
http://community.webshots.com/user/duiven49 
You can see my retired and handicapped birds.


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Treesa,

Good to see the much loved Skye; my Yogi is a blue bar with a generous "pouch" as well. Sorry about Pee Wee. I like the lines on Silver. Talent in that drawing.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Two of my special needs pigeons live in small aviaries on the patio with their healthy companions (didn't want them to be alone). One of them requires special supplements in her water, while the other has a weak immune system and is better off not being exposed to large numbers of pigeons. A third is not special needs in terms of daily care, so he's in the loft, but vaccinating him could be risky because he almost died of poisoning (Jacques). I don't have anywhere else to put him. The patio cages are big enough for one pair each. Unfortunately we don't have room for a second loft. Most of our back yard is occupied by birds. LOL

We really enjoy the fancy pigeons we got from the park. They are gorgeous--it's hard to understand how someone could just dump them, but I'm glad we have them.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Here's the link to my Webshots album again. I added a close-up of Duchess' shoes in the Fancy Pigeons album.
http://community.webshots.com/user/birdmom4ever


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Love her shoes.
Reti


----------



## Chikory's Inner Chicken (Apr 13, 2004)

He he, those shoes are cool! I had to do that for Brownie. He wasn't as well behaved and he hated it when my mum and I came after him in the morning to change the dressing on his foot and give him his needle. Duchess is a beautiful pigeon!

~Chikory


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Birdmom,

Duchess is so into style, isn't she! Love the shoes. lol

Is your patio screen enclosed? If it is, they have got mosquito protection because of the netting. If not, you might consider getting the patio enclosed. That way you could hold off vaccinating the ones with low immune response.Also consider putting mosquito netting around the coop, where the others sleep at night.

Treesa


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Isn't Duchess a cutie pie? She's such a little sweetpea, too. She's the best patient I've ever had to give meds to. Although the vet reported she didn't appreciate her foot wash yesterday. lol

No, our patio isn't enclosed. I'd like to enclose it, if for no other reason than the next-door neighbors feed the squirrels and we are overrun with them. Gr-r-r-r They dig up my flowerbeds and dump peanut shells all over the patio. 

I'm considering mosquito netting. West Nile virus is supposed to be a threat this year, though I haven't heard that it's a big problem for pigeons. Where do you get it? Mosquitoes aren't normally a big deal here in CA, at least not like they are in other parts of the country.

We're still hopeful Duchess doesn't have pox. She still has no lesions on her face and her baby and mate are still clean. I'll let you all know when I get the biopsy report next week. 

[This message has been edited by Birdmom4ever (edited April 17, 2004).]


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Update: Finally got the biopsy results back. It didn't show pox, though they couldn't entirely rule it out. But I'm sure it's not pox, because there were no other symptoms and none of the other pigeons got sick. What the biopsy did show was a proliferation of bacteria, which was consistent with the culture they took, as well. Basically Duchess had some nasty and tenacious bacteria (e. coli and staph) growing on her feet. The vet is keeping her on Baytril for another week, but I'm happy to report that she removed her "boots" today, and we were able to cancel the last three appointments for a foot wash and boot change. I'm to put prescription cream on Duchess' feet twice a day and take her back for a check-up in two weeks.

I had never seen this before, but I guess it makes sense that they can get a bacterial infection if there is any opening in the skin on their feet, considering that they walk in poop a lot! I guess I'm surprised that more of them don't have this problem. I keep our bird enclosures as clean as possible and disinfect periodically, but birds will be birds.


----------

