# Ice and powdered



## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

In my area there are many show rooms. Anyone can show his birds for sale and pay only $ 3.00 per week even sold or not. This is not the issue.... 

The problem is many breeders show thier birds as Ice or Powderd. But I think these are grizzle, faded, quealmond or any other color . these birds are sold at least 5 times double normal price. 
Becuase I'm a moderator in some arabic forums my point is to link this thread to show them the correct colors. I will send more pic's later. Here are some sample pic's please, any one tell me what color are they??

1:



2:



3:



4:


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

All the birds you posted are indeed Ice. The third and fourth looks like ice grizzle.
I would LOVE to have the birds in the first picture. If only importing wasn't so expensive.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well what I see in picture #1 is one blue bar the other bird looks to to be a cross of an ice and a blue bar. These two birds could be nest mates of a blue bar and a ice. I have exactly the same mating in my Italian Owls* GEORGE


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

I agree... I'd love to have the birds in the first pic!!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

george simon said:


> *Well what I see in picture #1 is one blue bar the other bird looks to to be a cross of an ice and a blue bar. These two birds could be nest mates of a blue bar and a ice. I have exactly the same mating in my Italian Owls* GEORGE


I don't know George, I'm seeing two Ice (or split for Ice).


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I also think the birds in the pictures 1, 2 and 4 look like they are ice (or powdered if that is the same thing). The bird in picture 4 could definitely be a grizzle.

The birds in the third picture are very probably homozygous grizzle, and I don't think they can be ice for the 'stork mark' to become so washed out in the wings and tail. I have bred het. indigo, het. grizzle pied homers that look very similar to the birds in picture four, except that they have a few more dark flecks here and there (mostly in the shield and neck - since they are check pattern) which show up at the first moult. I assume that homozygous grizzle indigos would look like the birds pictured. On the other hand I don't know what grizzle and ice would do together. But since the black parts are unaffected by ice, I would guess that grizzle ice would still have dark tail bar and flights, which these birds do not have. I am sure there are other genes that help enhance (or change) the effect of grizzle, which could be the case here.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*First the bird in picture #4 is not an ice it has a flesh colored beak all ice have a black beaks, also if any of you have the NPA GRAND NATIONAL PIGEON SHOW REPORT, on page 50 you will see 3 birds all champs in their breed . There is an ICE PIGEON, an ITALIAN OWL blue bar, and a JIENNTNSE POUTER blue bar. the italian owl is my bird raised from a blue bar cock and a ice hen he is in fact a power blue you will also see that he is much lighter in color than the pouter in the picture next to him. * GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Does smokey not affect the beak of Ice birds?

I agree, the third picture looks like homozygous grizzle. But I still think they are at least partially effected by Ice. The dark flecks in the neck remind me of almond and it's 'cousins' (sandy, qualmond, etc). The last one is also grizzle. Could be a young stork in the making that hasn't moulted in more white yet, or it could just be a het grizzle blue bar. It's hard to tell, especially with how cameras tend to change the appearance, but I still think it may be split for ice.

Here is Indigobob's het ice roller:








It has a flesh colored beak. It's also het for stencil so I don't know if that makes a difference. I thought black skin in ice was desired but not necessarily always that dark. I thought it had to be selectively bred that way.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*In picture #1 the iridescence is the clue here the bird in front carrys a green/purple iridescence , ice carry a silvery ice iridescence
, the second bird has a weaker iridescence and may be in fact a power blue and should be carring ice, that is the way I see it. The bird in picture#2 here again it does not show the silvery icy iridescence. The two birds in picture #3 look like grizzle that may be carring the pale gene. This is what I see* GEORGE


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Thats a very interesting point, George. I'm not trying to get too far off the subject but, were did the "term" powder come from? Is it possible that with the 6 different phases of ice, fanciers have just coined "powder blue" for the darker phases?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

redleg23 said:


> Thats a very interesting point, George. I'm not trying to get too far off the subject but, were did the "term" powder come from? Is it possible that with the 6 different phases of ice, fanciers have just coined "powder blue" for the darker phases?


I was wondering that myself. I'm sure with other modifiers, it can give even more variations in Ice. Like the darkening modifiers and such.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

redleg23 said:


> Thats a very interesting point, George. I'm not trying to get too far off the subject but, were did the "term" powder come from? Is it possible that with the 6 different phases of ice, fanciers have just coined "powder blue" for the darker phases?


*hI RED, I raise Italian owls and in reading I found that the Italian owl were seen at show way back in 1938 and a that show,was held in OHIO there were power blue IT,s shown. The ice color has been in the breed that far back.While I can't be 100% sure but it seem to me that Italian breeders may have crossed the bb and the ice to get a lighter blue bar right now I have two pair mated of BB x ICE. It realy is a shame that there was not better record keeping by breeders back then. Well you are right I do believe that at that show in 1938 the term power blue was first used here in the USA. I will have to dig around in my books and old magazines to find that old artical *GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Hey George, there's a guy who breeds Italian Owls about 5 minutes from my house. I have yet to visit him but I am anxious to see if he has any Ice ones. Doubt it, but it's possible! I'm also wondering how they will look show quality wise.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* Well now I will throw in another term used PEARL BLUE AXEL SELL in his book BREEDING AND INHERITANCE IN PIGEONS, on page 93 and 94 speaks of ice and here he uses the term PEARL BLUE.Here is what he has to say"In combination with dilution on a bluebar basis pearl blue is produced.This coloration sometimes occurs in the Danish Highfliers.Sometimes we find them also in Italian Owls,Hamburg Sticken,but usually here they are not recognized as something uncommon and are mistaken as light ice. Pearl blue can be mated according to the rules discussed in the section for dilution." he goes on to say more but iI think we now have a mix up in names power blue and pearl blue may realy be the same thing. I will need to take a good look at my birds and see what I can come up with.*GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Hey George, there's a guy who breeds Italian Owls about 5 minutes from my house. I have yet to visit him but I am anxious to see if he has any Ice ones. Doubt it, but it's possible! I'm also wondering how they will look show quality wise.


* Hi BECKY, Look out you just might fall for those Italians. He may have white and pieds. I need to find the list of club members back east*GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I wouldn't be surprised if I did. I already love Figs and they look basically the same other than tail posture. I wouldn't be surprised if I see some Figs at his loft that were mistaken for Italian Owls. Seems to happen a lot.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if I did. I already love Figs and they look basically the same other than tail posture. I wouldn't be surprised if I see some Figs at his loft that were mistaken for Italian Owls. Seems to happen a lot.


*Hi BECKY, Many of the members of the National Italian OwL and Figurita Club have both breeds. So you just might see both breeds at his place. Its realy funny I sure love the IT's but realy don't care for the Figs. I hope he has some ice IT's * GEORGE


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Your right George, record keeping probably was not very good. Keep me posted on any conclusions you come to, on your own "ice" italians. The ice modifier seems to be getting more and more complex and interesting.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

Thank you all for your reply, in general I think all of the 4 photos are not ice except one in photo 1 the back bird. all others are even grizzle or homozygous grizzle. 

If we say Ice we mean Ice pigeon which has unique coloration. The genetics of the white-barred and white-checkered varieties of Ice Pigeons are quite complicated, involving the genes for toy stencil and what are apparently multiple genes for the ice blue color. There are also black-barred and black-checkered Ice Pigeons, where the toy stencil factor is apparently not involved.

Damascene have same pattern but don't carry the TS gene. 

Just look to all photos one more time and compare the color with ice pigeon or Damascene and you will see the difference.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ice can also vary a lot. And birds split for Ice still show a lightening effect but not as extreme as homozygous Ice birds. Ice is just a modifier so they can be grizzle at the same time. I have also seen an iced indigo which was pretty.


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

A bird that is split for ice, may have some light grn/prpl iridescense in the neck?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If I'm not mistaken, Indigobob's split Ice birds did look to have some on there. Did no one see the picture I posted? LOL  I will go find the other one too for comparison.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I already posted the picture of the one that resembled the Roller, now here's the sibling that resembled the Ice Pigeon.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well I took a good look at the two mated pairs both cocks are BB and both the hens are het for ICE, up in the main loft I do have 3 ICE two check cocks and one Black Bar ICE hen.these birds are not mated. In going over ICE in Quinn'sbookhe poines out that two F1 parents will produce a Phenotypic ratio 3 ice to 1 wild type 3:1.This is modified to the genotypic ratio 1:2;1 because Ic//Ic is recognizable,producing a third phenotype. * GEORGE


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Sorry Becky, I missed that.


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