# Nest Mortality



## Jaulie (Aug 23, 2009)

I was wondering if anyone could help me out? I have had three clutches in the last two months, all but one of the babies has died within three weeks. The last three I have looked over after death. They seemed healthy but their crops were empty. The one that lived was brought in the house at 21 days old, and has been in the house since then. He was not showing any visible signs of illness he just happened to get out of his nest and was attacked by a pair protecting their nest. I read some posts on here and thought maybe I had a sickness in the coop that was leading to this, however if thats the case why didn't the pigeon that was brought into the house die also? Is it possible that all of my males are poor parents?


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## Brummie (Feb 16, 2009)

Jaulie said:


> I was wondering if anyone could help me out? I have had three clutches in the last two months, all but one of the babies has died within three weeks. The last three I have looked over after death. They seemed healthy but their crops were empty. The one that lived was brought in the house at 21 days old, and has been in the house since then. He was not showing any visible signs of illness he just happened to get out of his nest and was attacked by a pair protecting their nest. I read some posts on here and thought maybe I had a sickness in the coop that was leading to this, however if thats the case why didn't the pigeon that was brought into the house die also? Is it possible that all of my males are poor parents?


I am fortunate that I have never encountered squab's dying in the nest, that's no help to you though.
I think the first thing on my list would be canker.It's the most commonly transmitted ailment between parent's and there young. Do they have any cheesy growth's on ther throat?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I have been having similar problems and was suggested to treat for paratyphoid/ samonella. parents can be carriers and transmit the disease to the young causing mortality.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It sounds like the parents may have paratyphoid. But here's some questions for you:

- How old are the parents?
- Are they by themselves, or with other birds in a loft?
- Did the parents feed the babies before they died? I know you said they were empty when found dead, but did you see them feed the young at all prior?
- Did the parents seem protective of the nest, or reluctant to go near it? Basically, where they good parents, or do you think these could be cases of abandonment?


There are 3 main things that normally cause this.

One, the birds are young and inexperienced, and may not be very good parents just yet. Perhaps they got distracted or just did a poor job of feeding. Usually after the first couble clutches though, they get a good handle on it. Especially if they make it past hatching.

Two, the birds are stressed. This could be because of squabbles with other pairs in the loft. If they get in fights often over the nest, this could cause the babies to get squished and killed, or chilled because the parents weren't able to cover them. Predators hanging on the wire, or bothering them in any way, can stress them out to the point of leaving the nest. Also, going without food and water can cause the parents to stay off the nest looking for it, letting the babies starve or chill.

And three, disease. Paratyphoid is the most common cause of death in the nest and egg. It also can cause the parents to simply go sterile. Even if the parents don't show any sign of being sick, the bacteria can still get isolated in the sex organs. From there, it is passed to the egg. It may kill them in the shell, or within weeks of hatching. The parents could also very well be resistant to a particular strain of salmonella (what causes paratyphoid) and may be passing it along to the babies through the milk. Since they are still developing their immune system, it could overwhelm their system. And finally, if the parents do not have it, it could come from the nest. A wet nest is a breeding ground for bacteria. It would make a nice place for salmonella, e. coli, and other diseases to grow and make the babies (and/or parents) sick.

What I recommend is that if this pair is with other birds, isolate them. If you can, separate the pair to keep them from breeding. Give them plain food and water, and collect their droppings over a few days, and take the samples to get tested for paratyphoid. I don't believe it is expensive, but make sure you specify you want them to test for paratyphoid, or else they may not test for it. Sometimes this is the only way you can tell if your breeders are carriers of the disease. It isn't always shedded through the droppings, so there isn't a 100% accuracy there. But over 5 or so days, you should have a good sample. If they are positive for it, then you may want to test the health of the flock overall to make sure no one else has gotten and carrying it.

If they test negative, then something else is probably causing it. You may want to put them through a course of antibiotics and worm them, then a week or two later, try breeding them again. Perhaps once the babies hatch, you could empty the bowl and fill it with clean materials every once in a while. Usually once I've banded the babies and they're about a week old, I start putting fresh shavings (simply because they're easier to deal with) in the bowl every other day. Keeps the babies clean and dry.


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## Jaulie (Aug 23, 2009)

1. The parents are all under the age of three.
2. I have four mated pairs in the loft with I believe one female.
3. I saw the parents feed baby #5 the day before it died.
4. The deaths occurred in three separate nests. The first pair to mate were more protective than others but none really liked me or anyone else in their nest.

As far as I know this is the first clutch for all three pairs. The last two babies to die would get out of the nest and beg all the pigeons to feed them whenever I brought food out. I have run a ten day course of antibiotics, possibly the wrong one Duramycin at 300mg. Should I try Aureomycin because of the sulfa drugs in it? These are the two medications I have found locally. I currently have another pair sitting eggs, what should I do with them? They shouldn't be stressed by any predators I try to run them off frequently.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I wouldn't incubate any more babies until you get whatever it is under control.
*Pigeons that are feeding young need to have food available at all times.* They not only need to feed the babies but themselves.

Have you noticed rodents or rodent droppings in your loft?


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## jmaxpsi (Jul 31, 2009)

what do you use to treat for paratyphoid/samonella? this would be good to know.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2009)

jmaxpsi said:


> what do you use to treat for paratyphoid/samonella? this would be good to know.


baytril is the first choice and cipro is another good med for it to and it isnt a short course of meds to treat it either .. 14 days and longer is recomeded


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I was told to use enroflaxyn to treat paratyphoid. i got it here.
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html
this is the one:
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/cgi-bin/pigeonup.exe?preadd=action&key=C5755


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Just so there's no confusion - Baytril is Enroflaxyn.
Also, if the babies are coming out of the nest begging anyone for food - that's a problem. They shouldn't be doing that. Need to find the reason for that.


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## wolverine (Jul 29, 2009)

what breed of pigeons do you have? also what is your weather like?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> Just so there's no confusion - Baytril is Enroflaxyn.
> Also, if the babies are coming out of the nest begging anyone for food - that's a problem. They shouldn't be doing that. Need to find the reason for that.


thanks i didnt know


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## Jaulie (Aug 23, 2009)

wolverine said:


> what breed of pigeons do you have? also what is your weather like?


I have Homers and the temperature is between 45-20.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Just so there's no confusion - Baytril is Enroflaxyn.
> Also, if the babies are coming out of the nest begging anyone for food - that's a problem. They shouldn't be doing that. Need to find the reason for that.


That's true. If Dad is keeping them well fed, then they shouldn't be doing that. How old are they when they are coming out of the nest for food?


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## Jaulie (Aug 23, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> That's true. If Dad is keeping them well fed, then they shouldn't be doing that. How old are they when they are coming out of the nest for food?


Two and a half to Three weeks.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jaulie said:


> Two and a half to Three weeks.


If their coming out of the nest begging for food at that age - then dad and mom aren't feeding them enough for some reason. And their starving.
Content and well fed babies will stay in the nest, they know mom and dad will take care of them. If they come out to early, they are being neglected by the parents.
If any of mine come out of the nest "begging" BEFORE they are ready to take care of themselves, I bring them inside and finish hand raising them. And they stay inside until I know they are eating on their own and can take care of themselves in the loft.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Probably a long shot, but there is the possibility that a snake or rodent is scaring the parents away from the next box. In cold weather though, unlikely a snake.

Sounds like the parents are not able to obtain enough food, for whatever reason.

Pigeons are some of the best parents in the world. If they are not doing their parenting responsibilities well, there is something really wrong.


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

I had the same problem with my birds but once my breeders were in thier second season it stopped.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Jaulie, First off, how long have you had the birds? illness does NOT come out of nowhere. do you have feral pigeons near your loft? is the person you got them from having a problem? I agree with Becky in her order of possible reasons. 
It is more likely balance of male to females, poor breeding stock, poor feed types, or one of the cocks is to aggressive and ignoring the young because he wants to start the second nest. I would be surprised if it was a sickness.
Can you post some pictures of your birds, and the Loft? that would be of great help. Dave


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## Flamingo (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree with Lucky T. I dont think that it is sickness. If it were I would say canker because that would make feeding difficult for the parents if it were severe. Sound more like a feed issue to me. I always have feed in front of my breeders at all times and keep the lights on 24/7 so the parents will feed through the night. The babies crops should be bulging most of the time. Feed Feed Feed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It could be the parents are just bad parents, but paratyphoid can affect one squab, and not the other. First of all, I'd have their poops tested and cultured. At least the question of a disease would be answered. If this is different parents that this is happening with, I'd suspect disease. Not really any reason to leave the lights on 24/7. Mother Nature doesn'
t do that with wild birds, and they know to feed their young.


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## windmill Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

Hi,
There can be another reason.
Around 2 1/2 to 3 weeks the parents spend less time setting on the babies. And If you live in cold weather like where I do. The babies will die from the cold. Most people in my area stop letting the birds sit on eggs durring this time of year for that reason. Jim


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## windmill Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

I think it is a temp too cold issue. Every thing fits in place. 
Sickness from 3 different pairs. I dout it. 
Pull the eggs. Treat the parents. Just in case.
Wait until it gets warmer. Then let them set.
I bet the problem goes away. Jim


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

disease does spread, so yes, they could all have something that is spreading to the babies. If it was just the cold temps, why would all their crops have been empty? Still, I agree that warmer weather would be a better time to breed. But racers breed in the winter months, so you would get arguments about that. so if the parents were good parents, they should keep them warm. They do stay off them more when they start another nest at around 10 days or so, but they should be feeding them. Check the poops anyway, just to eliminate that.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Is the water freezing No water the birds feed less to the young. As already said Feed in front of the breeders keeps them able to feed BUT water is more important. And then nest area plus breeding section size do the birds have plenty of space. 40 to 20 degrees and young chasing to be fed Says feed and water is not readly avalible. As homer/ race birds Are some of the best parents as for raising there young.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, unless they are poor breeders, or WAY to young, under say 8 months old, cold weather is not the issue, Water is a good point in the issue, i am P issed i didn't think of it ! lol! Dave We need MUCH more info. on this situation...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> Is the water freezing No water the birds feed less to the young. As already said Feed in front of the breeders keeps them able to feed BUT water is more important. And then nest area plus breeding section size do the birds have plenty of space. 40 to 20 degrees and young chasing to be fed Says feed and water is not readly avalible. As homer/ race birds Are some of the best parents as for raising there young.


Now that's a really good point. Without water they can't feed the babies. Could you post pics, or at least give us more info.? Hard to believe that ALL the parents would be bad at parenting.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

GOOD POINT! more info! Dave


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## windmill Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

Back to cold babies guy's.
If the babies are cold. They will beg for food. But if you really watch the babies. They don't beg as intence, or as long. I have seen even the best parents get confused about this. They seam to think it's Jr. just wanting to be fed all the time. Also the babies do not process the food as well when cold. Kind of like a sour crop. So when they get a bit of food they stop feeding. Kind of like the food hurts them. Belly ach - crop ach.
We had some real warm weather here late in the year. All of my Doves and Pigeons started laying eggs. Then like the next day. We went into 20 to 40 degree weather for several weeks. I had the same problem. I was able to add heat to my whole loft. The rest of my babies are doing well now. Jim


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

windmill Ranch said:


> Back to cold babies guy's.
> If the babies are cold. They will beg for food. But if you really watch the babies. They don't beg as intence, or as long. I have seen even the best parents get confused about this. They seam to think it's Jr. just wanting to be fed all the time. Also the babies do not process the food as well when cold. Kind of like a sour crop. So when they get a bit of food they stop feeding. Kind of like the food hurts them. Belly ach - crop ach.
> We had some real warm weather here late in the year. All of my Doves and Pigeons started laying eggs. Then like the next day. We went into 20 to 40 degree weather for several weeks. I had the same problem. I was able to add heat to my whole loft. The rest of my babies are doing well now. Jim


Yes BUT when its very cold the young birds need heat cover that the parents provide by sitting them. To cold the youg go into hibernation type stae then basicly freeze to death. If active enough to chase the parents or other adult birds for feed Then they are very hungry. If not heat is provide for waters Simpley providing fresh water in the mornings and the agin in the evening Can get them through the cold spells. As morning feedings and evening with water /grit and enough feed to allow parents and youg to get fed. Parents leave youg uncovered when in need of feed and water.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2010)

sounds more like a lack of food or water issue to me too , parents raising babys need alot to get them thru from hatchlings to weaning ...do you have grit for them always too ,thats another very important thing


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## windmill Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

Hey,
I really do love this sight. It is good to be able to ask questions about your birds here. And it is good to have several different openions be given. It means the people who are trying to help - are really thinking. And that is so good. Often a person who is trying to help. Gives another perspective. One you might of never thought of. My hat is off to you - the people of pigeon talk! Jim


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

windmill Ranch said:


> Back to cold babies guy's.
> If the babies are cold. They will beg for food. But if you really watch the babies. They don't beg as intence, or as long. I have seen even the best parents get confused about this. They seam to think it's Jr. just wanting to be fed all the time. Also the babies do not process the food as well when cold. Kind of like a sour crop. So when they get a bit of food they stop feeding. Kind of like the food hurts them. Belly ach - crop ach.
> We had some real warm weather here late in the year. All of my Doves and Pigeons started laying eggs. Then like the next day. We went into 20 to 40 degree weather for several weeks. I had the same problem. I was able to add heat to my whole loft. The rest of my babies are doing well now. Jim


That's interesting. If you think about it, you're right. They can't process the food well if they are cold. Another thing to think about.
But Jaulie hasn't been back for several days now, so really can't give us any more help with this. So without more info., kinda hard to help. All these things are good to bring up though, as they are a good reminder to everyone.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

I receive regular calls from fanciers that fertile eggs are failing to hatch i.e. that the embryos these eggs contain are dying through the incubation time. Many fanciers immediately think of Salmonella when they see this, when in fact all infections together including Salmonella account for less than 5% of all dead in-shell youngsters.

And so just why do these youngsters die? Most youngsters that die in the egg usually die either in the first few days of incubation, or alternatively the last few days of incubation. In the first few days embryo death is usually due to either inadequate incubation leading to too low a temperature to keep the chick alive, excessive jarring of the egg that either fatally damages the chick or yolk, or alternatively, a genetic problem affecting the chick which is incompatible with life.

Towards the end of incubation, chicks usually die as a result of problems associated with hatching. As incubation ends the chick has to shift from getting its oxygen through the membranes that surround it, to breathing air and also re-absorb its yolk sac (which supplies it with both food and immunity). If the temperature or humidity is incorrect at this time these processes fail to occur correctly and the chick can die.

Between the beginning and end of incubation the chick is essentially just growing and it is here that nutrition and infection become more important. If the young chick is lacking a nutrient it needs for growth or becomes infected it dies.

This year has been a particularly good breeding season for me in that I have not failed to wean a single fertile egg i.e. every egg that was fertile has hatched and been weaned. I have now weaned 50 youngsters. Although pleasing this situation is unusual despite the best of care. I did however, have one fancier mention to me last week that he had had 30% of all fertile eggs fail to hatch. He did not seen overly concerned and appeared to think that nothing could be done. This is far from the truth. An embryo fatality of 5% could be regarded as normal. Anything more than this should arouse suspicions of a problem.

For those of you having a problem with dead-in-the-shell youngsters, lets have a look at the potential problems that can arise with each of these periods of incubation in more detail, so that hopefully the problem can be solved.

Embryonic Death At The Start Of Incubation
Deaths early in incubation can be detected by opening the egg and seeing that it is in fact fertile, but that the embryo is only poorly developed. As mentioned earlier, the usual cause is poor incubation leading to the egg becoming cold after development has started. Possible causes include improper nesting material, over interference by the fancier, inadequate control of nest bowl mites or pigeon flies, failure to provide second nest bowl for next pair of eggs, too many birds in a section, older arthritic birds, poor nest box design, competition with other birds within the loft, poor parenting, nest box too hot or too cold or poorly ventilated, disturbance outside loft etc. Also as mentioned earlier, eggs are very vulnerable to vibration type injuries early in incubation. Shaking or jarring can kill the developing embryo either directly or by rupturing the yolk. This is of particular relevance when eggs are being transferred for fostering. The effect of thunderstorms is a total myth. Embryos that are unlucky enough to have genetic abnormalities usually also die early in incubation. Genetic problems are more likely to occur with in-breeding.

Deaths From Day 4 To Day14 Of Incubation
This is the longest period through incubation and yet is the time when least deaths occur. The embryo is simply growing. The growing chick receives its nutrition from the yolk and deaths here can reflect nutritional problems in the hen. Hens that are correctly fed produce nutritious yolks that support healthy embryos. The effect of stock bird nutrition is very underrated. By simply feeding a blend of 2-3 grains and grit it is not possible to prepare the stock hens well for breeding. Fanciers who believe they can do this often accept an elevated embryo death rate or several weak chicks in the nest, as normal.

Although embryos can die of infection at any time through incubation, it is at this time of growth that they are most vulnerable. Certainly there are some infections that can be carried by the hen such as Chlamydia and Salmonella, that can infect the ovary. These can be incorporated into the egg at the time of its formation, and subsequently infect and kill the embryo as it grows. Infection can also pass through the oviduct wall into the egg. These types of infections, that enter the egg prior to laying, are in the minority however. Most infections that embryos develop are caught after hatching in the nest. Nests that are dirty, poorly ventilated or excessively humid lead to egg- shell contamination and movement of infectious agents into the egg. Egg quality is also important here. Cracked, thin, mis-shapen, rough eggs allow easier entry of infection and are more subject to trauma. Poor eggs can be due to oviduct disease, but are more often associated with a nutritional deficiency in particular calcium deficiency. Some fanciers will have noticed eggs with translucent clear lines running around the outside of the egg, showing the eggs rotations, as it was passing down the oviduct. These thin areas can be an early sign of calcium deficiency.

Embryonic Deaths At The End Of Incubation
Through incubation a membrane called the chorioallantois develops around the chick. The chorioallantois acts a bit like a human placenta, in that it delivers air to the embryo after it diffuses through the shell. At the end of incubation the chick must swap from a chorioallantoic respiration to breathing air. It does this in two stages. First it internally pips. This involves cutting a small hole into the air chamber at the end of the egg and starting to breath the air it contains. At this stage vibrations can be felt in the egg and chick will sometimes vocalize. After another 12-24 hours the chick then cracks the shell and breaths external air. While this is happening the last of the yolk sac (the chicks nutrition during incubation) is drawn into the navel (and eventually ends up as a tiny sac in the wall of the small intestine called Merkels diverticulum which lasts the whole life of the bird). Interestingly, during this time, the chick also drinks the clear fluid around it called the amniotic fluid. This amniotic fluid, and also the yolk sac contain the antibodies that protect the chick from infection in the first few weeks of life.

While all this complex physiology is going on the chick is vulnerable to problems. Too high or low temperature or humidity during this time will adversely affect the chick. The usual problem, is however, too high a temperature, or too low a humidity. This combination causes the shell and shell membrane to become hard and dry. This can lead to even a healthy chick becoming exhausted. In addition to this, the chick quickly becomes dehydrated. I am sure many of you, myself included, have helped these chicks hatch only to find them dead later. These chicks die because they are dehydrated. Such chicks if given small drops of water will often suck them down greedily and survive. These dehydrated chicks are called sticky chicks because of the way they stick to the dry shell membranes. They are often found dead after hatching ¼ to1/2 the way. If removed from the shell they often have unabsorbed yolk sacs and there is often dry, gluggy albumen still in the egg. For consistently high hatch rates, it is vital the stock birds have access to either rain or a bath around this time. If not possible the underside of the hen and also the eggs can be lightly misted with water from a spray bottle. Ideally the nest box should have a temperature of 20-25 degrees celsius, and a humidity of 70%. If unsure, a thermometer and hygrometer can be placed in the nest box.

In summary, in most lofts hatchability can be dramatically improved by three simple steps:

Improving stock bird nutrition in the months prior to breeding.
A fresh nest bowl for every round, and ongoing nest box hygiene.
Access to rain or a bath around hatching.

If attending to these matters does not help, your avian veterinarian will usually want to test the hen for infection, or alternatively do an egg autopsy.

Racing Pigeons Dying in Egg by Dr. Colin Walker

http://pigeonracingpigeons.com/


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for sharing this Ed. Great information.


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## Jaulie (Aug 23, 2009)

I have pretty well accepted that the deaths were my fault; lack of food. A little embarrassing. Knowing this, should I keep individual food bowls for each pair or is one large feeder always full sufficient? 

Thanks for all the replies.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Were you not feeding them?
I would keep one large feed dish full, and a waterer full with clean water, but then if they have babies, I and many others keep a separate dish of feed and of water in each nest box always.


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## Jaulie (Aug 23, 2009)

I think it was a combination of poor feeding and bad parenting. The first spring clutch produced only one baby, the other egg never hatched. I kept food in the nest at all times and the little one is about 4 weeks old and doing well. The second clutch produced two babies, however the parents stopped feeding them today at 1 1/2 weeks old. I will not allow that pair to hatch out another clutch unless their is the opportunity to foster them into another nest. Found an egg on the floor of the coop this morning. I don't know for sure if its from the first pairing and the 4 week old kicked it out or not? I have one more mated pair, but unless she hung her butt over the edge of the nest and laid the egg there is no way it could have gotten out of the nest. Thanks for your help.


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