# The key to building a strong family of racers



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I have my ideas On how to work towards a foundation program to improve a racing homer line to go forward. What do you do have done to improve your breeding and flying results. Such as obtaining the best birds you can . From as few people with the same family line. Checking flying records of the purchased breeders. Ped, info. on past flyers. setting up training and racing charts of there young. Keeping only the best clock and consistant birds to go to the old bird team. Not over pushing the yearlings past a 300 mile. Then at second old bird season. Rate the birds on performance. Looking back on the different pairs As now your third season On the differnt hens and cocks. Kow have they gone on to produce a persentage of quality flyers. remove the less consistant breeders. From the breeding program. perhaps replaceing them with some of the solid old bird flyers from a more solid set of breeder family line. This goes to 4th year. From there program remains as above. Adding removing. As you set down your best breeding pairs developing differnt family lines with the loft. With your key birds. By year 6 you are on your way to a solid program. Strong old bird team. And improved and reduced young bird team. As You see numbers being raised can be reduced as quality has improved. Less losses And birds are being raised that perform well in your area. Be strict on removel on non performers. Let them go to people that just want pigeons. NOT future flyers in the the club or such As they may improve some. But most often will have a lot of work to go. Then you are acredit to the sport. By when you get rid of a bird to another flyer. They are getting a bird You would be will to race and keep. And perhaps put in your breeding loft. BUT thats just my idea. Tell us your concepts and a little on your program


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## FT33 (Jan 27, 2005)

Does the size of the birds matter for breeding? Is it ok if the hen is smaller than the cock or the other way around? Or do you want the birds to be pretty much the same size? thanks.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

In most cases the hen will be smaller then cocks. But once and a while you will have a hen that is same size as a cock and have alot going for it. Size of birds differ some what with family lines. a good med balanced bird is a workable bird. Not to small not to big. A cock that appears in looks more like a hen I would not use it at all in any breeding program. Wont mean it can not fly. But it will not have the outward tools to improve on.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Start at the top !*

Hello Robert, 

Good topic. At the risk of sounding like a commercial. A few years ago, I got back into racing after quite a few years. I spent several months attempting to locate a "family" of birds. I knew enough that if I acquired birds, even good ones, in a random fashion, that it could take 7-10 years to build a family around them.

So, I sought out breeding stock, that I would not have to invest ten years just to form a family. Here is my story. 

http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyloft/myhomepage/profile.html

If I can simply maintain the quality that is already there, I could be good for a long time. If someone wants to get serious about racing, and balks at the price tag of aquiring world class breeders, then I offer this thought. If you have pigeons for the next 20 years, how much will you have invested in feed, racing fees, travel etc. ? Now, take the investment needed to start with World Class pigeons, and divide that by 20 years. 

The alternative, is to start with a random collection, work very hard over the next 20 years at trying to improve them, and maybe, maybe, you can be at the same level as my starting point. 

By acquiring a Champion FAMILY developed over two generations and thirty years, I in my humble opinion  Have saved decades of work, and have greatly increased my odds of success.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Thats in line on obtaining the best you can get. THEN you still have to set down a breeding program to keep going forward. Though the birds were from a tight family line. You the person are now the breeder of the purchased birds. And that can just as easly take them backwards as it can go forwards.. Records race results and an eye for putting the birds together keeps up the building and results. BUT yes you put it in a short line. GO to the top If you can to get good birds. then results come much faster. And this holds true in any pigeon breed out there. Quality exceeds quanity. One good pair is better then ten just ok pair. I think sometimes thats where people get in a hurry to. As thinking numbers gives chances. BUT The longer a person raises pigeons they in time learn that if they are going to be competive they have to make some changes. Steps are local national and international. local races and shows not as good of birds needed. national one loft races districtshows and meets much better birds are needed. Intrnational. basicly If you do well nationaly. You can compete else where or your bird help pigeon breeders from other countries. Its what a person sets a goal for. And ITs goo to aim to the top if you can. So your right on track there warren.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

You are right on there Robert,

If the selections for breeding going forward, are not chosen wisely, then BIG steps backward, can occur very quickly. I believe there may be fewer then a dozen MASTERS in the world, who can select simply on what they can see. 

For the rest of us poor mortals,  we had better count on the basket to discern who has the "right stuff". Even then, I believe it is an art to the pairing. 

The "old school" taught to simply pair the best to the best. I believe, that is not the total complete picture by any stretch of the imagination. If it were that simple, then all one would have to do, would be to mortgage the house, and purchase a pair of outstanding champion racers, and future success, fame and fortune would be guaranteed. 

I am convinced, that for the most part, 1) start with the best you can get your hands on 2) select vigerously on race and breeding performance 3) constantly look for birds which are superior to your own for crossing. 4) keep only the very, very best.

When I hear of fanciers who have 50 pairs of breeders, I know they are working on the numbers game. My opinion is they could eliminate all but their best 5 pairs, and their racing results would improve. But, they will never do it, and besides, it gives me someone to beat !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I agree there on the numbers. I know several people that breed from way to many pairs. They seem to think you have to raise alot to make up for the one getting lost in training. In which with good birds you loose less. But they will not listen. Old school also taught that a bird that did not have all the tools but had much of what you needed should be used in the breeding program. And you know that many times even in racers that the brother sister to a winning bird will make the better breeder. Because even though it sibling scored higher on wins. it scored higher over all on perfomance. consistantcy. records. race results Are the charts to build a winning family. Even show birds often a bird that would not win a one bird show. Has the make up to breed top show birds so it is used for stock. If a person understands there breed and points carried on a bird. And a flyer studies his birds and there capibily to reproduce winners. AND that it takes good hens to keep a line going. NOT just top cocks. AND the master breeders were slow to build there birds but never strayed. Where many times a person changes birds in a 3, 4 year time. Then agin and agin. Familys that win were built not bought . Then from there they go on to help many people get a great start. Most top racing lines were over 20 30 years in the making. tracing back thru ped, as now forty fifty years from ther top birds. then some just keep short ped info because they know each bird thru the years. The old line birds have a history as to how they were bred and how others bred from that line so on. taking on the name of the flyer. sich as Smiths ludlos. That would be your family line of ludlos. Now you cross them do good the become just Smiths. To which a proven line that you built has now been sought after and can perform well for others. Years go by in raiseing breeding and the art racing building that line. The old saying there is no short cut to the top. Just a lot of hard work and enjoyment. Thats why top breeders breed winners and others try to buy winners. One stays on a level field. the other rushes but can not get to the top. JUst like you have done. You went out pruchased the best you could get. It has helped you greatly. And as you go forward from there Those birds become YOUR family of ludlos And how they perform becomes how you bred them to do so. Your the artist who brings ther painting to life from this point. Ganus. Ludlo were the supplers of the paint. A good paint. you create the master piece. As you will breed them different then Ludlo or ganus would And who knows perhaps better. The future is the fun in the art of breeding.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Robert,

You talk like my mentor did. Talking about painting and such ! Thirty years ago, I would sit and listen, and wonder what this painting business was all about ! 

Did you go to the same school ?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I to listened well thru the years. And still listen today. Alot of good poigeon breeders out there. painting is after building the house. You get the best you can and from there you paint the loft with select breeding . So you as I both have listened thru the years to help give us the tools of learning. The school is the same. And perhaps some one may here our words one day. The young people will carry forward in the sport from the words of the past who tried.


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## FT33 (Jan 27, 2005)

Thanks guys for all the good info. I am new to racing pigeons so it has been helpful. I got a couple more question I have been reading some stuff on eye sign. I know some people dont bother with it at all and some people really believe in it. I was wondering what do you guys think about it in relation to breeding and pairing up your birds? Do you pay much attention to it? I read an article on eye sign that said to never pair up two birds that both have pearl or yellow eyes that you should always pair up a yellow and a pearl is this true? I am wondering if this eye sign stuff is really that important so I have another question I am not sure if there is a answer for this one but here it is. What is there more of? Pigeons that if you would look at its eye sign and going by eye sign only you would say that this bird has a bad eye and it isn't a good racer or breeder but it actually is a great racer and or breeder. Or pigeons that if you look only at its eye sign and according to its eye it should be a great racer or breeder but it actually really sucks. Maybe that was a little confusing what i'm trying to say is what is there more of? A pigeon with a bad eye sign that is actually a really good bird or a pigeon with a great eye sign that is actually not a good bird for racing and or breeding. Thanks


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Eye Sign*

Dear FT33,

Perhaps someday, someone will come along, who can convince me of the importance of this so called "eye sign" business. I know there are fanciers out there who value eye sign, wing sign, vent signs, twister signs, etc. Sort of reminds me of the song from the 60's, sign, sign, everywhere a sign !

Do I "like" a beautiful eye ? Yes. Do I really buy into the ideal, that you can peer into a pigeons eye, and tell if it is a racer, a breeder, etc. No way.

No more then you can tell anything about any other athlete, human or mammal, by looking into their eyes. Feel free to read everything that has ever been written about eye sign. I will still put my confidence in the results. Racing performance, and breeding performance.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Eye Sign*

PS.

If there are any "eyesign" experts out there, perhaps they will look at the three pictures I have attached, and tell me which one of these would make a decent racer, which one has turned out to be a complete dud.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hey Warren,

I know nothing about the eye sign and which of the birds would be good or bad racers, but I must say they sure have very very beautiful eyes!  

Linda


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Going by eye sighn You would say the number 2 bird had the better eye, then 3 then 1. But like you warren. Te eye sighn is iffy. But I do like a good alert eye on homers. And a bird that stands out in the loft is one wqith a strong alert eye. But in the air I have seen birds with broken eye sighn do good. So which of the 3 birds do better in the sky. warren.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Eye Sign*

Robert,

I will reveal what I have posted, after I get a little more input. I was hoping to get a few more experts to look at them. Perhaps a reader may not be an expert, but someone in his club is. Print out the three and show them off. Maybe I can be convinced !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Sounds good Warren. The best eye sighn Is seeing the bird going thru the trap. But It does take a little learning on the different grades of eyes. I have not stayed caught up since they proved with foged contacts that the bird can still get home. Used to be grades one thru ten. And ten had a good wide full circle around the pupil. Just as a five but wider. I still say a good racer looks good. over all balance of the bird makes it stand out.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*The Eyes*

Well Robert,

It does not look like I have any takers on my eye sign challenge ? Maybe that means their are no readers who are into eyesign ? Or, they are afraid, to venture their "expert" opinion ?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Then you can give me a clue on which bird was the better flyer of the 3 posted eyes


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Eye Sign Challenge*

OK Robert,

Here they are:

Super Champion- World Class RACER -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/superchampion2.htm

Olymipia Queen- Racer and Breeder -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/olympiaqueen2.htm

Late Rode 430- World Class Breeder -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/laterode2.htm

I cheated a little bit, there were no duds in the group. Although one gained their reputation from racing, one a combination racer & breeder, and a breeder.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well then rating was close. But all was good. The whole bird rates on each.


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

The number 2 eye is the strongest breeding eye. The number 1 eye is also a strong breeding/flying eye. The number 3 eye would be my last choice.
Eyesign is very controversial. Families of pigeons tend to show certain eye characteristics which may indicate value as far as breeding is concerned. Personally, I feel that there are too many factors at work to predict which eye will win a race(weather, health, training etc.).
I wouldn't base a family exclusively on eyesign but it can be a useful tool, where breeding racing pigeons is concerned. 
I believe in the long run, the basket is the best choice.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Right on Grizzled !

You and I like the #2 eye the best. 

However, the #1 eye produced four world class champion racers, and over 25 1st place winners.

The #3 eye, which you favored the least, has the superior race record, hands down. 1st Olympic Champion Bird of the Entire World - All Distances 2001, 1st Olympic Champion - All Holland - South Africa 2001, 1st National Ace Pigeon - 1 Day Long Distance - Vredesduif 1999 

I am still waiting to be convinced by anyone, that this "eye sign" theory, should have any meaning to the average racing fancier at all. 

Show me the race results, and the breeding results. And then I, like anyone else, can tell you if a bird is any good at racing or breeding. The promise that an "eye sign" can foretell the racing or breeding performance of a bird, before the event, is a pipe dream, pure and simply.

If you could gaze into an eye, and tell me this bird is the best racer, in a group of birds, imagine the millions you would have earned already in the various pools. Just another old wives tale, that people can't let go of. 

And like you Grizzled, I think the #2 eye, as listed on my orginal post, is still the most beautiful.

PS. #1 & #2 are brother & sister.


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

Well it just goes to show you that what we like isn't always what is best. 
All of us like a nice looking, well balanced bird, with a nice eye and good handling body but as we all know, all types of pigeons big, small, beautiful and not so beautiful win races and breed winners.
Are #1&2 of any particular strain or family line?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*I am glad you asked !*



Grizzled said:


> Well it just goes to show you that what we like isn't always what is best.
> All of us like a nice looking, well balanced bird, with a nice eye and good handling body but as we all know, all types of pigeons big, small, beautiful and not so beautiful win races and breed winners.
> Are #1&2 of any particular strain or family line?


Well now Grizzled,

I bet everyone is glad you asked !!  

http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/laterode2.htm

http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/olympiaqueen2.htm

and saving the BEST for last !!  

http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyloft/myhomepage/profile.html


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

So the two reds #1 & #2 are from the same family. Looking at their eyes I wouldn't have thought so, but seeing the full photo I can see the family resemblance. They are real beauties. Both are outstanding breeders obviously, but were either of these pigeons flown or were they bred for stock only? The #2 eye appears to be digitally enhanced to better display the eyesign attributes(just my guess). Can you post some more eye pics? Include a real dud this time just for fun.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Grizz,


The #2, had some respectable racing experience, all in Holland. So keep that in mind, there was some tough competition. 

5th St. Quentin 864 b 
52nd Orleans 4,327 b 
83rd Argenton 3,528 b 
63rd Creil 2,735 b 
16th Minderhout 9,300 b 

She has produced 9 1st place winners. So, when you picked the #2 listed here, she had a race record, and a breeding record. The other two were known for one or the other, so you made a good choice.

I will have to look around for a "Dud" eye picture, I don't own any.  
I own direct children of #1 and #2, as well as grand children, and great grand children. After 60+ training tosses up to 100 miles, and 10 YB races, of which the 336 mile race is mandatory, by the time the season is over, all that is left, are pretty good.


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## SmallTeamFlyer (Mar 31, 2005)

*Speaking of Mentors and the Birds*

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Here are my thoughts on pigeon racing. My best friend and mentor immigrated to the United States from Holland in the mid-to-late sixties. He has been involved in the care of pigeons since the age of six. 

Many of you know of the Red Fox Janssens. My mentor was one of the interpretors for Campbell Strange when Freek Romein (Red Fox Janssen fame) and Hans Eijerkamp were visiting Oak Haven Farms before Chris Peeman purchased the establishment.

I've had many wonderful, enlightening discussion till hours on end with the man. I will share with you that which we have discussed. Hopefully, some of it will be of use to you. Keep an openmind and above all else, make your own studies and observations.

1) Always be mindful of the fact that you must find birds that respond to you as a fancier and your type of handling and management practices. 

2) Always search out the best fanciers in your area that fly under the same type of conditions as you do. 

3) Better decisions are made regarding your racing future when you look at the data you collect while racing.

4) You evaluate your race birds. This data is the raw data that you use to evaluate your breeders. It does not lie and is impartial to misinterpretations.

5) In order for a bird to move from the race team to the breeding loft, it must have done so solely on performance!

6) You'll generally find it is a HEN that has the most impact on a lofts ability to thrive many years into the future. Generally, it is a super hen that is the key!

7) The first set of eggs from a hen are generally the GOLDEN EGGS! Treat them like gold.

8) Never break up a pair and remate to another mate within the same year. The reason is that you might produce an outstanding youngbird from it and sometimes this breaking of a pair and re-mating with different partners does something to the chemistry.

9) Consistency is the most important criteria for picking a bird to hold over!

10) If you fly mated pairs or widowhood, allow the birds to pick their mates. It seems birds are much happier under that arrangement. Often birds will fly much better when they have done so verses pre-arranged marriages by the fancier.

11) Feed the birds a balanced grain mixture with as many grain components as possible. Let the pigeons pick their food. Pigeon know much better than we do which grains they need the most.

12) Super pigeons never have a problem staying in shape nor do they over eat.

13) The Super pigeons and the below average birds are the easiest to pick out. It is the average birds, the birds in the middle that will deteoriate a loft faster than the fancier can blink the eye!

14) Be very careful and mindful of your good birds. Don't just give them away at random. There is a Dutch saying that you can sell the fruit but not the tree. It means that you never, ever rid yourself of the birds that were responsible for getting you on top! Don't fall to the spell of the $. Most fanciers only get one maybe two chances if any during their careers to own a pair of pigeons that really impacts the future of the loft. Take great care with these type of birds.

15) Always keep your old birds and breeders until you have evaluate the youngsters during the YB races. You want to have the key birds that produced your consistent pigeons.

16) There is talk of eyesign, wing theory, blah, blah, blah!!! The honest truth is that the BEST pigeons have all the right components to be a champion. There is no need to immerse yourself in theories.

17) Build your own family of birds. Next, you can introduce from time to time other birds from the outside. But test them as YBs first. Remember every bird must earn its place in the loft.

18) When bringing birds in from other lofts to test against yours, remember to make them only to your best birds, with the exception of your outstanding breeding pair (never break them up). If the birds don't compliment your bloodlines then get rid of them. Do not dilute your families future. Anotherwords, test mate to a couple key birds in your loft. If they don't perform, get rid of them immediately.

19) Youngsters in the nest. Look for the youngsters with the densest down feathers (the yellow) or the thickest legs. Look at the youngster that appears to be alert and noticing all that goes on. Look at the quiet one that sits in the bowl or in the box without peeping.

20) The testement of a good family of birds is consistency. You want winner, after winner, after winner.

21) Remember that no one is going to sell you their best bird. If you see the words "foundation quality" you'd better think twice! No one in their right mind would sell their foundation birds, their best racers or otherwise.

Cheers!

Jeff


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Several useful points to what you listed. With the key building a family of birds. And towards that. Records on how the birds have done and produced birds that did well. also. And true no one gets rid of there best. Thats why we start at the best we can get. And go from there. Thanks for your list to this thread.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jeff,

Some very interesting points which you have made. I would like to direct your attention to #16

16) There is talk of eyesign, wing theory, blah, blah, blah!!! The honest truth is that the BEST pigeons have all the right components to be a champion. There is no need to immerse yourself in theories

Now in hindsight, we can look at a Champion, and say ah...yes..this bird has all the right components. The challenge is in indentifying these facts BEFORE hand. Like say, when the bird is just weaned. Or before the race season, and you want to know what bird to pool ?

The allure to all these theories, is they hold out a promise to identify the "Super Bird" before a single race, or a single breeding season. The challenge as I see it, is to figure out what these "components" really are ? I suspect that many things that people look at as a "component" is simply a personal preference, and may in fact, have little or no bearing on racing or breeding ability. For example, tight vents, one feather tail, feather "quality", a certain "feel" in the hand, wing qualities, etc. etc. etc.

So, if you were to walk through my loft, and were to pick out the bird with the best race record, what "components" would be the tip off to you ? I confess, I have not developed that skill as of yet. Birds that I had high hopes for, which looked and felt perfect in every way, ended up lost on training tosses. Birds, that were ugly, out of balance, loose vents, poor feather, that I kept sending to races, almost hoping never to see them again, would be my clock birds.

I suspect, that like race horses, it may be impossible to tell by a simple visual examination. I know there are people who claim they can look at a horse or pigeon, and tell if it is a winner, I just can't seem to get them to go with me to the track and prove it.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

I really don't belong in this discussion at all since I am not a racer, but I am enjoying following it....

Warren...I got a kick out of your comment:
*Birds that I had high hopes for, which looked and felt perfect in every way, ended up lost on training tosses. Birds, that were ugly, out of balance, loose vents, poor feather, that I kept sending to races, almost hoping never to see them again, would be my clock birds.*

It's so true that our first inclination is to believe that something or someone who we consider to be beautiful will be somehow be the better performer...and it's not just you, most of us tend to be that way naturally. It reminded me of an experiment I read about in one of my Psychology classes where people were shown photos of very attractive men and women and also photos of average to less attractive men and women and given no information at all about the people in the photographs. Without fail, the people viewing the pictures rated the attractive people as smarter, more athletic, more successful, more compassionate, etc. I guess it just goes to show that with people, and pigeons too!...we can't always judge a book by it's cover.

Sorry for butting in...lol....
Linda


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Linda,

I know what you mean !! Ever since I was a kid, everyone assumed I was smart, was a great althlete, was very sucessful, and VERY compassionate.
I tell you, it is a curse !!  

There were many a nights I cried myself to sleep, asking the Lord, just to make me average looking ! I guess it is a cross that me and my good looking pigeons, will just have to bear !


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Warren!!!

ROFL!!!!! [email protected]!!!   Thanks for making me laugh out loud with the great comeback!!!  

Linda


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

warren I still think a good bird looks good. And yes sometimes a bird that you would think would not make it can. BUT as a rulle I do not think it would be and stay consistant. Giving the birds the tools to perform . Breeding from the better performers. Builds a family. Poor winged birds Get lost in the tough races. Loose tailed birds on the long races to me will have drag and tire. Birds with no up front strengh. power will not hold up. But I guess if ugly birds are built on and perform. Each there own. The bird has to have what it takes both in body and the heart to keep going. Tell the truth. on the average does your top birds look good or are they loose tailed poor winged. lanky skinny bodied.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

OK Re Lee,

You got me there. I only had one really ugly bird ever surprize me. But, it was a pretty important race, and I guess after she won 1st place and the money, she stated looking a little better to me...sort of.

I am pretty biased, but what led me to my strain I own, is their outstanding beauty. I only race ten weeks out of the year, but I have to look at them for fifty-two. I especially like the deep red, dark eyed beauties, with a pretty neck tie to boot !  Like an artist with a paint brush, I have painted my vision of beauty, and what I want to look at. It comes from my "Fancy Bird" roots.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When I talk about a bird that looks good. I mean I see much of the desired traits that the bird needs. Be it a racing homer or show type. To me a racing homer need the tool bred into it to perform. And that shows on the bird. And stand outs are birds when you see them they catch the eye right away. Having much of the body tools and alert eye. Feel good in the hand. Often times these birds produce winners. And can be built around to base a loft. Bad deal on homers. Is building the line. birds have to be tested in the sky. and records kept. It takes years to build that line in the loft. And looks of the bird is just 1 part then performance is the other part. THEN reproducing that performance is the test of a good breeder bird. Its all art/ work And most all colors except the soft colors are not hard to work with as long as fads do not get in the way. Soft colors have to be hardened off to maintain feather quality. Increased quill width more couase feather. Ash red holds well. The fad now in this area is blue bar blue check. Thinking that color flys the best. I still say a bird with pink poca dots that wins pretty soon every body wants one. Because it wins. So that proves color is color winning birds come from a good family line. So fads mean little aginst performance. And your birds what I have seen lean to red velvet color. Good hard feather and a good color to look at.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> OK Re Lee,
> 
> You got me there. I only had one really ugly bird ever surprize me. But, it was a pretty important race, and I guess after she won 1st place and the money, she stated looking a little better to me...sort of.
> 
> I am pretty biased, but what led me to my strain I own, is their outstanding beauty. I only race ten weeks out of the year, but I have to look at them for fifty-two. I especially like the deep red, dark eyed beauties, with a pretty neck tie to boot !  Like an artist with a paint brush, I have painted my vision of beauty, and what I want to look at. It comes from my "Fancy Bird" roots.


 Not sure yet how or why this old thread showed up in my email, seems like ages ago, but I guess my concept has changed, just like when I was in the 7th grade and in love with the most beautiful girl in the world. (Red Hair) A few years of maturity, and my view changed to something else (Blonde), many years later, (whatever will put up with me) and so has my taste in pigeons. Right now, I could almost care less what color a pigeon is, or what color the eyes are, my concept of beauty now, is what looks like a superb racing machine in my eye...and my vision of what that is, has changed....and most likely will continue to evolve.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Some very interesting points which you have made. I would like to direct your attention to #16
> 
> ...


Now, looking back at these comments, they seemed so right on, I was surprized that I had written them......


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## maximus (Nov 15, 2008)

re lee said:


> I agree there on the numbers. I know several people that breed from way to many pairs. They seem to think you have to raise alot to make up for the one getting lost in training. In which with good birds you loose less. But they will not listen. Old school also taught that a bird that did not have all the tools but had much of what you needed should be used in the breeding program. And you know that many times even in racers that the brother sister to a winning bird will make the better breeder. Because even though it sibling scored higher on wins. it scored higher over all on perfomance. consistantcy. records. race results Are the charts to build a winning family. Even show birds often a bird that would not win a one bird show. Has the make up to breed top show birds so it is used for stock. If a person understands there breed and points carried on a bird. And a flyer studies his birds and there capibily to reproduce winners. AND that it takes good hens to keep a line going. NOT just top cocks. AND the master breeders were slow to build there birds but never strayed. Where many times a person changes birds in a 3, 4 year time. Then agin and agin. Familys that win were built not bought . Then from there they go on to help many people get a great start. Most top racing lines were over 20 30 years in the making. tracing back thru ped, as now forty fifty years from ther top birds. then some just keep short ped info because they know each bird thru the years. The old line birds have a history as to how they were bred and how others bred from that line so on. taking on the name of the flyer. sich as Smiths ludlos. That would be your family line of ludlos. Now you cross them do good the become just Smiths. To which a proven line that you built has now been sought after and can perform well for others. Years go by in raiseing breeding and the art racing building that line. The old saying there is no short cut to the top. Just a lot of hard work and enjoyment. Thats why top breeders breed winners and others try to buy winners. One stays on a level field. the other rushes but can not get to the top. JUst like you have done. You went out pruchased the best you could get. It has helped you greatly. And as you go forward from there Those birds become YOUR family of ludlos And how they perform becomes how you bred them to do so. Your the artist who brings ther painting to life from this point. Ganus. Ludlo were the supplers of the paint. A good paint. you create the master piece. As you will breed them different then Ludlo or ganus would And who knows perhaps better. The future is the fun in the art of breeding.


Great information! I'll keep in mind those thoughts when deciding on my breeding pairs and ybs for which to keep. It is a big deal to build your own team/line. Thanks, it always helps to read the posting from Smithloft and you Robert!


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2008)

I've read where most times a pigeon picks a better mate then people when it comes to the race results do you feel that this is true ?


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

People will differ on this but for me the ones that picked thier own so far have been alot better. We will see after this year again cause I paired about half and the other half paired themselves.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Funny that my original 12 birds picked their own mates. I let them because I only had one compartment at the time and had not acquired there pedigrees yet. There were four sets of siblings and four random birds. Out of these six original pairs, Three are still together and have bred winners. All but three of the birds have bred winners at some level. 

I have introduced three birds other than the originals offspring. Two of the three produced winners. The third will breed this year. 

I am also going to introduce three more birds into the mix. One is a bird off of a very good racer that I raised, the best in the club, crossed with the second best racer that year. The pair bred a 200 mile race winner and sibling of the bird. 
The best young bird this year from a friend of mine on loan from a solid family of birds and a hand picked hen from his best pair, to give me an even number of breeders. 

In simpler terms, my strategy is to get the best birds you can acquire, breed from them, keep the best to breed from, and bring in like birds or birds you think might be better. Do not be afraid to thin your birds down to only the very best. Find your best pair and keep offspring to breed. Study the race sheets and get siblings of the winners, or better yet the pair that bred them. Give your lousy birds to the other members in the club and you will always find success. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> I've read where most times a pigeon picks a better mate then people when it comes to the race results do you feel that this is true ?


The first flier that comes to mind here is Ad Schaerlaeckens. I'm sure you've heard of him. Ad does not believe you should pair your birds. He believes "love matings are the best matings". Ad also believes the best matings are crossings. Seeing that Ad is one of the best at this sport (flying & breeding) you have to at least think about what is working for him??????????

Ace


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all!

I seem to want to agree that all this about eye -sign theory and wing shape, etc. is trash, as being a load of bull...! 

If I had to examine ten winners, all will reveal one or other good trait that the theorists put forward as the alpha and omega! None have them in a package - a lucky packet.

I also want my birds to choose their own mates and see the results!

Sometimes "nature" makes the mistakes visible for us to see and we can then remedy the mating by simply splitting the pair and doing it our own way!

Pedigrees can't fly, BUT BE SURE - where there is a consistent performer in a pedigree no lies are being spun. As breeder, use him to the best of your ability.

white flight ZA


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I think I have read every arcticle on Ad's site (that alot) and believe he is one of the best in the world. Elton Dinga got birds from him and he also lets his pairs pick their own, so does Tony Rossi and both these guys do pretty well.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thing to keep in mind is letting birds choose their own mates only works if you are starting with good birds in the first place. Most of the time I let my birds pair up. If they do not hit, then they are split up, given away, or given a new mate. Birds should not stay around long that do not produce winners. I bet Ad has confidence in the majority of his breeders. I think here the key is what everyone defines as a good bird. Good pedigrees does not make a good bird. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> I think I have read every arcticle on Ad's site (that alot) and believe he is one of the best in the world. Elton Dinga got birds from him and he also lets his pairs pick their own, so does Tony Rossi and both these guys do pretty well.


Both of these fanciers bird's show up in my family tree. I think the thing to keep in mind, that when you are dealing with a breeding loft of the like's of Ad, that he *does not have *a nilly willy collection of birds from here and there. 

I'm still in the process as of this writing, in "pairing" my birds up. There are some very key birds that I will do the selection for them, but there are a bunch in there, that for all practical purposes you could flip a coin. They are peas in a pod, they are all related, relying on "Lady Luck" or "Pigeon Love" or drawing straws may very well make little difference.

Once upon a time, I had a somewhat dim view of brother x sister pairings. Don't know why really, must have been some "tip" I had picked up way back in the 1960's. Then I think it was 2004, when by accident, a brother x sister accident pairing, that I used for foster parents, by accident, produced their own offspring. I have yet to break that pairing up, because every year it has produced every thing from an American Ace to cash winners, to "Bird of the Year" offspring....and then their offspring has done the same. All of this, was by chance...or "Pigeon Love"....so what that tells me, is that we as fanciers, are really no better at pairing then "Lady Luck"...so go for it !!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

There is a wise fancier in our club that told me a rule for pairing siblings that makes total sense to me. You look at the parents, if they are crosses the pairing is ok. If they are line or inbred, you will not get the results you want. May just be hogwash, but seems to make some genetic sense. The more genetic diversity in the lineage the less chances of issues. 
I also try to shy away from sibling matings. I do like cousins and aunt/uncle x niece/nephew type pairings. I like crossing out sucessful siblings and then breeding back the cousins. 
Another method that seems to work is cross out your line and if it hits breed those birds back to the original. Keeps some diversity and vigor in the line of birds. 
I think what Elton Dinga does is he keeps his Cocks of a certain line together in the same compartment. He then rotates hens of different lineage through. He lets them choose mates, but at the same time has some control of what is crossing with what. Seems like a good plan. 

Randy


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