# Train Now or No?



## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

Well my remaining 5 are flying a little now, but they want to come back in the coop pretty quick. When I let them out, the usually immediately trap themselves thinking I have already put the food down. They will eventually come back out and fly for a few minutes before re-trapping. I am feeding them 1oz/bird + when they go back in. Can I start tossing them from short distances to get them flying or should I just continue to loft fly them? I have read many old posts, but it is just hard to find the answers to my specific circumstances. Thank y'all so much for helping me get my birds flying. I am already wanting to get some white homers for wedding releases. There are many wedding facilities in the area that I'm sure I could contract with.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

No tossing yet. They are not yet confident so don't force them. They go inside right away if they are too hungry. Or they get certain clue like you go inside the loft thinking that you are putting some food. Usually you release them before their usual feed time. So let us say that you usually feed them around 6 pm, then you release them around 5 pm. Let them explore. If you find they are doing something bad, then you call them in for their food. You do that if you want them to fly for 1 hour (if they will fly that long). I am letting my birds fly for around 30 minutes so I release them 30 minutes earlier, clean the loft and call them in.

Young birds will be scared at first. It may even take them 1 week before they will make 1 full circle around your loft. Some will do thing right away. It just depends on the bird and their age. The word here is not forcing them. You can either up their feed to 1.4 ounces and see if any change in results. Make it 1.5 ounces if you need to, but that could be too much. What you are trying to figure out is whether they are too hungry that they wont fly more or too much feed that they wont fly. Feeding quantity is the most difficult to gauge. You can also add that these are new birds, too. So for now be patient. Just to let you know that it took one of my babies 2 weeks being out before circling while other babies took less than 1 week. And I have this crazy baby that scared me when it went ranging with my old birds--bad decision on my part. I am glad it came back.


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

I feed around 8:30 AM so I usually fly around 7:45 - 8:00, but they fly for a few minutes and then land on the loft and wait for me to put down feed and open the trap. Then it is a race to get inside.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I know usually it is a case of overfeeding, but do you think your birds might be too hungry-that they want to get inside and eat right away? 

What are you feeding the birds? Are your birds in tip top health? Are they not yet confident of their surroundings or are there preditors nearby? These might also be factors.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

How old are these birds? Mine usually aren't ready to road train until they are 4 months old or so. They need a lot of time around the loft just getting used to their surroundings. Wait until they are flying around the loft on their own. If they still don't want to route and they are 5 months old or so, then you can start releasing them within sight of the loft. Do this for several releases, I would say 8-10. Then release them just out of sight of the loft. Do this several times. This is where you will losses birds if you are going to loose them. They will either start routing or they will be lost. 

Once you have gone just out of sight of the loft several times then go a half mile down the road and do that several times. Then you can start stretching the distance out. I know this sounds very conservative and perhaps it is, but you will find yourself loosing a lot of birds if you go too far too soon.

Just my thoughts

Dan


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

First, how old are your birds and what type do you have (homers, rollers, etc..)? 

Assuming you have homers....If your birds are not making rounds around the loft then road training is not even an option. Your birds are either to young or are not being fed enough if they trap as soon as you put feed down. Don't get me wrong, you want your birds to trap right away but trapping after only a few minutes of flying gives the impression that your birds are not getting enough to eat.


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

I will try upping the food a little. The birds are still only a few months old. I am not sure how old they were when I got them, but I know they were just feathering out and had never been flown. I have had them since mother's day so I guess about a month. They seem to fly well, just not for long. I will be patient with them and give them time.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

rapid fire said:


> I will try upping the food a little. The birds are still only a few months old. I am not sure how old they were when I got them, but I know they were just feathering out and had never been flown. I have had them since mother's day so I guess about a month. They seem to fly well, just not for long. I will be patient with them and give them time.


Keep us posted my friend!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi RAPIDFIRE, You have had these birds for about 4 weeks. If these birds were 4 weeks old when you got and have had them for4 weeks that would make them around 8weeks old.These birds are to young for road traing at this time,and you say that they make shorts flights around the loft.they must be flying for at least 45 minutes to 1 hour or longer before you road train.When your birds have been routing or ranging that is they leave the area of the loft and are out of sight for around 15 to 20 minutes and suddenly buzz your loft at a low height and then disappear for 15 or 20 minutes these birds are ranging and now you can think about road training............Your bird now are a still a long way for being ready for road training The major mistake that most novices make is road training their to soon.Right now your birds are testing their wings. when they feel ready they will explode off the loft, healthy young birds love to fly. Now that brings up another question have you medicated these birds since you got them? Have you wormed them and treated for canker?These are two things that you should have done while they were being trap trained. There is one other thing I would like to know in what part of the country do you live and are you rual or city.* George


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

I am in Georgia, USA. I am very close to several small cities, but I live in an area that is sort of rural metro. I have not medicated. The gentleman I got them from graduated UGA with a poultry science major 40+ years ago and was a vet for the last 30+ years. He only messes with medication if they are sick. I am so intrigued by their flight. I am like a kid that wants them to just magically take to the air like fighter pilots.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi RAPID FIRE, How close are you to CATON,GA. LEARING lives there he seems to be the closet to you and could be the one that could help you most. He is curently in a racing club and I would say could well be the best one to help you, check with him,you can't go wrong.* GEORGE


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

rapid fire said:


> I am in Georgia, USA. I am very close to several small cities, but I live in an area that is sort of rural metro. I have not medicated. The gentleman I got them from graduated UGA with a poultry science major 40+ years ago and was a vet for the last 30+ years. He only messes with medication if they are sick. I am so intrigued by their flight. I am like a kid that wants them to just magically take to the air like fighter pilots.


Hey RapidFire,

I am in Canton, about an hour from Athens. Let me know where you are and if I can help. I will do what I can.

Dan


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

I am in Powder Springs. Only about an hour from Canton. I have a really busy month ahead of me, but when things settle down, I wouldn't mind driving up to meet you and take a look at how you do things. Thanks, Mark


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## mmelloss (Nov 16, 2008)

*trapping*

what about if it takes your birds forever to trap even if their hungry. I have that problem but they always come back at sundown what should i do these birds are young maybe 4 to 5 months old. They will fly to the ground on my loft do a couple of circles in the sky around the loft then fly to a tree that i have in my yard. Some times i feel like i want to cut the tree down but it is a nice tree and it gives some of my yard nice shade to sit under. Even when i shake my can of feed they won't come in right away.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

rapid fire said:


> I am in Powder Springs. Only about an hour from Canton. I have a really busy month ahead of me, but when things settle down, I wouldn't mind driving up to meet you and take a look at how you do things. Thanks, Mark


Hi rapid fire,

I'm between you and Dan in Kennesaw. If I can be of help with general care let me know, but if it is about racing, I'll go with you to Dan's House. The man is smart and knows his stuff and he is a teacher.

God Bless,
Tony


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

mmelloss said:


> what about if it takes your birds forever to trap even if their hungry. I have that problem but they always come back at sundown what should i do these birds are young maybe 4 to 5 months old. They will fly to the ground on my loft do a couple of circles in the sky around the loft then fly to a tree that i have in my yard. Some times i feel like i want to cut the tree down but it is a nice tree and it gives some of my yard nice shade to sit under. Even when i shake my can of feed they won't come in right away.


These birds are Not hungry. I do not feed my birds in the morning that I am going to fly them, When I get home from work I release them and let them fly for about 30 minutes to an hour or two before I ring the cow bell. If the birds are within hearing they trap. If they are out ranging I wait 10 to 15 minutes and ring again, they trap. 

I also only feed my birds for about ten minutes. They can eat until they are full but I only have the food out for a short lenght of time. Birds that do not trap do not eat. All the birds that do trap once they eat I remove any leftovers. 

As for training young birds, When weaned from the nest I catch them in the loft and carry them around the outside of the loft and release them back into the loft thru the trap. After I do all the young ones, I ring the bell and feed all the birds. I do this for a little over a week. This imprints the trap and the bell with food. The older birds are out flying during this time but trap when I ring the bell. This just imforces the imprint.

After that I watch for the young birds to fly out of the loft on their own when I open the trap and to trap back into the loft on their own when I feed them. This can take up to a month or two but their wings are getting stronger as they learn. I do not force this they will go on their own when they are ready. 

Once I know they know where the loft and trap are I will catch them and do what Dan said. I sit the carrier down within sight of the loft and wait about ten minutes and release them. Then go and ring the bell and feed the birds. I do this two, three times a week. Here I am trying to imprint release-trap-food. Other times I release from the loft I let them fly for some time before I ring the bell and feed them. But anytime I release the birds from a carrier I trap and feed right then. I release in sight but from the north, then west, then south, then east side of the loft. 

Once they are good at trapping, I move to just out of sight of the loft, (like Dan). Here the neighborhood kids help. I set the carrier down and have a kid wait by it until I walk back to the loft. When he hears me ring the bell he releases the birds and they fly home. they are only about 100 yards from the loft and can hear the bell so they come. Here I added the release by strangers to the release-trap-food imprint. Also, I have notice, it is during this time in the training when the young birds will start ranging when I let them loft fly.

Food is the main motivator so I do not feed my birds at any set time. If I am Not going to fly them I will feed them in the morning go have my coffee then come back and remove any leftovers. If I plan to train or fly I do not feed them until after they fly that day. Sometimes plans change so I feed them when I get home from work and do not fly them. Sometimes I can come home for lunch so I'll feed them then. The point is to not become a creature of habbit, or the birds will learn you and ajust to your habbits and not the training.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

rapid fire said:


> I am already wanting to get some white homers for wedding releases. There are many wedding facilities in the area that I'm sure I could contract with.


If you really want whites, neighbor, that is what I have.

Tony


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

rapid fire said:


> I am in Powder Springs. Only about an hour from Canton. I have a really busy month ahead of me, but when things settle down, I wouldn't mind driving up to meet you and take a look at how you do things. Thanks, Mark


Boy is it a small world. I taught for nine years at South Cobb High School right there in Austell! I have spent many a day at McEachern at football games, contests, etc. 

You really could get to my house in a little over 30 minutes from Powder Springs. I am actually quite a bit south of Canton, closer to Holly Springs. I just have a Canton address. As he said, Tony is right there close to you. I would love to have you come up any time. Just let me know ahead of time so I can roll out the old red carpet!

Dan


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

I don't really care to get into racing as I already have too many hobbies, but I am very interested in learning about pigeons. Tony, where are you in Kennesaw? I have worked in the Acworth/Kennesaw area for the last 5 or so years. I will try to get with both of you when things ease up a little. Is there a market for pigeon releases or does everyone just want doves?


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

rapid fire said:


> I don't really care to get into racing as I already have too many hobbies, but I am very interested in learning about pigeons. Tony, where are you in Kennesaw? I have worked in the Acworth/Kennesaw area for the last 5 or so years. I will try to get with both of you when things ease up a little. Is there a market for pigeon releases or does everyone just want doves?


The dove release business is a pretty saturated market, at least in this area. I know of several people that are into it. They have a tough time making it into a full time job. Most of the people that I know do it as a side job. It is a lot of time and effort but the people that do it seem to enjoy it. If you need more info on the dove release side of things I can get you in touch with a guy in Marietta that has an extensive business.

Dan


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

There ain't no way I'm going home and telling my wife that I need to build a dove loft now. She already thinks I am crazy enough for having the pigeons. I wouldn't mind having white pigeons just to fly and be a source if someone wanted to use me, but I am not sure if people only want doves released or if they will use pigeons.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

rapid fire said:


> There ain't no way I'm going home and telling my wife that I need to build a dove loft now. She already thinks I am crazy enough for having the pigeons. I wouldn't mind having white pigeons just to fly and be a source if someone wanted to use me, *but I am not sure if people only want doves released or if they will use pigeons*.



You don't use doves for a release business. You use pigeons. You can CALL them doves if you want, but doves should NEVER be released.


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

Lovebirds, Thanks. Now you just fueled my fire even more. If I have a loft just for white birds, will it confuse the birds if I open my lofts and let all the birds fly at the same time? I will have to build the loft on the other side of my property b/c my neighbors are already whining about the smell of my loft drifting toward their swimming hole. I don't want to confuse my current birds right now, so once I get them flying good, I will probably move their loft a few feet at a time to the other side as well.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

rapid fire said:


> I don't really care to get into racing as I already have too many hobbies, but I am very interested in learning about pigeons. Tony, where are you in Kennesaw? I have worked in the Acworth/Kennesaw area for the last 5 or so years. I will try to get with both of you when things ease up a little. Is there a market for pigeon releases or does everyone just want doves?


 Hi RAPID FIRE, Well I see you are confused about the dove release busness it realy is a WHITE PIGEON release. In which white racing pigeons are used. White Doves do not have the homing ability and there for would be lost after the first release. The name WHITE DOVE RELEASE sounds much better then WHITE PIGEON RELEASE and that is why it is used. ....GEORGE


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks. I have been wondering for a while about the whole dove thing. I will probably build me a fairly large split up loft in a few months to house a few more birds.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

rapid fire said:


> I don't really care to get into racing as I already have too many hobbies, but I am very interested in learning about pigeons. Tony, where are you in Kennesaw? I have worked in the Acworth/Kennesaw area for the last 5 or so years. I will try to get with both of you when things ease up a little. Is there a market for pigeon releases or does everyone just want doves?


I live near Stilesboro Rd and Acworth Due West Rd.. I only have Whites but not in the business. I started because I love birds. and the whites look beautiful flying around the house. I train them because a trained bird is less likely to get lost. Plus, it is fun, and gets me out of the house.

There is a market, just let the churches and funeral homes know and it starts there. I know this because my Mentor has two churches and three funeral homes that call him if they want birds. I did my first wedding last week for a friend and word of month has started. Got two calls this week, but June is the wedding month.

God Bless,
Tony


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

rapid fire said:


> There ain't no way I'm going home and telling my wife that I need to build a dove loft now. She already thinks I am crazy enough for having the pigeons. I wouldn't mind having white pigeons just to fly and be a source if someone wanted to use me, *but I am not sure if people only want doves released or if they will use pigeons.*


If you really want to get into it, a pair of Doves are used in a beautiful cage in the reception but are NOT released. Only white homing pigeons are released and only with good weather, enough daylight to fly home, and No hawks in the area. 

Dan is right, you cannot make a living with it, my mentor makes a little feed money and that is all. But he also bought baskets, tables and cages at flea markets and goodwill, spray painted them white and stores them for when the time comes. 

My advice, fly your birds and do releases as a wedding present for family and friends.

Tony


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

rapid fire said:


> I don't want to confuse my current birds right now, so once I get them flying good, *I will probably move their loft a few feet at a time to the other side as well*.


I had to move my loft and still have three of the wheels if you need them.

Tony


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

Tony, if I had known that, I would have paid you a visit today. I work at the fire station up by Kroger at Stilesboro/Mars Hill. I will be transferring to Acworth next week, but I will get with you one day. If you don't mind me checking out your setup, give me a call at 770-826-4975. I have a really busy month ahead of me, but I may be able to do some territory training one day at work.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

mmellos,
If you make your food call and they go down, then they are food trained. But if it takes them a long time to enter, then they are not fully trap trained. You have to retrain them about your trapping system. Depending on the kind of your trap, I think drop trap and sputniks trap is the easiest for them to learn.


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## rapid fire (Mar 5, 2009)

My birds flew awesome this morning. They were eager to get out and took straight to the skies. The flew as one group this morning. I watched them for about 10 minutes and then went and got my shower. When I got out 4 of them were still flying. I was worried I may have lost the 5th one while I showered, but when I shook the can and gave them my best SUUUUUEEEEEE SUUEE SUUEE SUUEE, all 5 of them appeared and began to circle the loft. After a little more calling and about 30-45 seconds later, they hit the trap and began to feed. They flew for nearly 40 minutes this morning. If this nice weather holds out, I will see if they will fly this evening.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

rapid fire,

Good talking to you this morning. Next Saturday afternoon is good for me and if you want we can ride out to Dan's and check out his loft. No lie, he has the loft I dream of. He also has great info and a super nice guy. When I grow up I want to be like him.

Tony

Dan,

You going to be around next Saturday? If rapid fire can't come, I still want to ask you some questions and pick your brains.

Please,
Tony


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Big T said:


> rapid fire,
> 
> Good talking to you this morning. Next Saturday afternoon is good for me and if you want we can ride out to Dan's and check out his loft. No lie, he has the loft I dream of. He also has great info and a super nice guy. When I grow up I want to be like him.
> 
> ...


As far as I know, I should be here. Of course it all depends on what the boss (wife) has planned! I am on summer break so I am home during the week as well. Just give me a call and we'll put something together.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*I will come in for Supper...When I am Good and Ready !!*



mmelloss said:


> what about if it takes your birds forever to trap even if their hungry. I have that problem but they always come back at sundown what should i do these birds are young maybe 4 to 5 months old. They will fly to the ground on my loft do a couple of circles in the sky around the loft then fly to a tree that i have in my yard. Some times i feel like i want to cut the tree down but it is a nice tree and it gives some of my yard nice shade to sit under. Even when i shake my can of feed they won't come in right away.


 I would lock them up in the loft for a day and not even go into the loft. The next day I would go in and chase them all outside and lock them outside for a short period of time, maybe 1/2 hour or so, most likely they should be trying to get in. Then call them in and feed them for about 10 minutes or so, and then cut them off. Feeding is an art form. Very easy to over feed. And then to complicate matters, it's not just the amount of feed, but what you are feeding. A typical European Supreme type feed can be very rich, and the same amount one day could be under feeding and a day later the same amount could be overfeeding. I almost never feed the exact same amount or type of feed during the week. I am constantly adjusting amounts and types of grains I feed. Some days more barley and wheat, some days more commercial mix, some days some extra corn. It's like trying to adjust the fuel mix depending on things like weather and the amount of work being done. 

You will have to adjust the amounts you are feeding, because if they are sitting up in a tree when you call them, then they are telling you they are just fine, thank you very much, I will come in when I am good and ready, because I really am not that hungry just yet.


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