# Dilemma



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I have a bird that placed 13th overall Nationally in the Middle Distance category. 2009 AU APC 632. He scored:

9th @ 200m, 704b, and 60L
6th @ 200m, 347b, and 31L
2nd @ 200m, 1,016b, and 55L
1st @ 300m, 373b, and 30L

Should I stock him? Or, should I keep compiling up his race record? I also have a full brother who was lost during young birds in 2009, but came back towards the end of the season and is very healthy now. 

Suggestions and/or advice?


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

I had one come back after the races too. Must have trapped at another loft, got out and came home.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Nice looking birds!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> I have a bird that placed 13th overall Nationally in the Middle Distance category. 2009 AU APC 632. He scored:
> 
> 9th @ 200m, 704b, and 60L
> 6th @ 200m, 347b, and 31L
> ...


I would ask myself this question. How would you feel if you lost your first place bird? The second against 1k birds is also impressive. I am stocking my 2nd place bird at 250 this year because three of the grandparents are dead/gone. Want to preserve the bloodline so stocked the bird. My 1st place bird is flying old birds. Lot of things to consider.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Breed one round now and you can train him for old birds.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Me personally, I would not stock a bird until after 3 full seasons. As far as I can tell this bird has flown youngbirds, and then one season of old birds, thats only 2 seasons. So for me it would be a no brainer, fly him! But, I subscribe to the theory that I have them to race, so they will race.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Matt Bell said:


> Me personally, I would not stock a bird until after 3 full seasons. As far as I can tell this bird has flown youngbirds, and then one season of old birds, thats only 2 seasons. So for me it would be a no brainer, fly him! But, I subscribe to the theory that I have them to race, so they will race.


That would be logical to fly him and compile his race record, but this is going to be my fifth year flying and it's the first time I've come across a good and consistent bird. I'm just cautious not wanting to lose him. Will still keep debating...


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> Breed one round now and you can train him for old birds.


I agree..old bird season doesn't start until next year. Pair him up now and you will have insurance just in case if anything bad happens. Plus you could
fly him widowhood if you like.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I flew him only on widowhood, but the awesome thing was he won without a hen to come back to! He's very attached to his box.


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

I'd stock that bird personally.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Another thought. Breed it next year to your best opposite sex bird. Race the youngsters, if they do well keep it in the stock loft. If not put it back on the race team. Should not miss a beat. Also it will have more attachment to home. Race him on eggs, show him his hen etc. More motivation.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I sent two sibling to a guy in Albuquerque, a hen and a cock. Both were in the top 10% numerous times and first to the loft most races. His theory was the three year method before stocking them. He kept flying them both. The hen won the 200 mile race as an old bird. She was eventually lost or it got sick and was no more. He allowed the Cock to mate but only raise a few babies before the race season. One baby won the 250 mile race and the other hit a wire. I took her home and bred from her this year and last. Two of her babies and two grand babies were raced this year. Two had top 10% finishes with a 3rd, 8th, and 23rd against almost 400birds a race. 5 Times the birds were first to the loft. Sibling of her sire bred multiple 1st place birds. I called him and asked about the sire. He said he looked through the loft the other day and could not find him. 
The point I am making, is if you have a 1st place winner or a bird that has bred 1st place birds you need to know where they are. Your loft is never going to get better if you do not retain the best for breeding. If like breeds like, winners breed winners. If you want more of her in your loft, I would stock her. Do you want more birds like her or just her?
Needless to say, I wanted the cock back if he did not need him. Because his brothers have bred my best young bird three years running. Their are reasons the cream don't always rise to the top.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I will mention again that I still have the full brother to 632. So do you think the theory that the full brother of the best cock racer is the better breeder holds water? Like Hekkenklak and Hekken-Bro?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> I have a bird that placed 13th overall Nationally in the Middle Distance category. 2009 AU APC 632. He scored:
> 
> 9th @ 200m, 704b, and 60L
> 6th @ 200m, 347b, and 31L
> ...


Just a thought. Stock him, his parents, any siblings. Find someone you trust that wins there fair share. Get mates from there best to cross into this family. Split the babies. Get rid of all the other birds in your loft. I bet those results you see from 632 start repeating themselves. Marcel Sangers went to Koopman and obtained some birds to strenghten his already potent stock. He crossed them, kept the best crosses and then bred them back into his stock. He auctioned off the original Koopmans from a profit. Genius if you ask me. Keep your best cross them with the clubs best, and then linebreed back you your birds. The cream should rise my friend.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

One of the methods the Janssen Brothers used to breed exceptional birds is mating each cock bird to the other's daughter.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks hillfamilyloft for the advice.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I would be looking for two top notch hens right now for the brothers. Look at your records in regards to hens. If you find there are sisters that breed consistent winners, those are your gals. My bird that won 200 this years Dam has three sisters that will be new breeders in my loft this year. Thats five sisters out of 22 hens, I have three sisters off Mark's 801 bird, Three sisters off Tiger my Engels cock. two sisters off my futurity winner. See how this works. Siblings off of hens that win have a propensity to breed winners. From my limited experience, it works. Do the same thing for the cocks. Find brothers that breed winners, you better be rounding up all the other brothers to stock. Has worked for me more than it hasn't.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I say breed what you can out of him now and race him during the OB season. If the blood is truely good, you'll get babies from him that'll be his equal or better...or close enough to him. 

I think there are so many "good" pigeons on the market you can buy that you shouldn't have to worry about losing a good racing bird from your loft.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I think there are so many "good" pigeons on the market you can buy that you shouldn't have to worry about losing a good racing bird from your loft.


He needs to find out if this bird will breed winners. Not every good bird will breed winners will it be the firs bird he buys that breed a good bird, or will it be the tenth bird.
One could spend a lot of money trying to replace a bird he allready has.
Dave


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Crazy Pete said:


> I think there are so many "good" pigeons on the market you can buy that you shouldn't have to worry about losing a good racing bird from your loft.
> 
> 
> He needs to find out if this bird will breed winners. *Not every good bird will breed winners* will it be the firs bird he buys that breed a good bird, or will it be the tenth bird.
> ...


Exactly why he should race it, since it's a proven racer. Not many will give you this type of results in the air either.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I'd take my chances with the 50 or so young birds you can get out of him over the next 5 to 10 years. Instead of taking chance that you lose him to a hawk on a training toss or a race just to build up his record. You already know he's a good bird what else does he have to prove to you? I'd say the only other thing to prove is if he pass on his winning blood. Plus like you said this was your first bird who was consistant the way he was I wouldn't tkae chances losing him. If your set in your breeding and breed a few really good birds each year then I would race him for the 3 years b4 I retired him if not stock him. That one bird can change the future of your loft and take you places ppl wish they could get in the sport but if he's gone you'll never know. I just think there's way too many bad thing that can happen to a bird on it way home to take the chance. I have the bird who took champion bird this past young bird season I'm gonna stock him this year and get my 6-8 young out of him and if none of them prove themself he'll go back on the race team for the 2012 old bird season.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have an AU champion hen she is now in the breeding loft and I'll try her with several mates befor she goes back to the race teem.
Dave


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

His parents were given away before he proved himself. And the best part is that the parents were given to me as gifts. Sometimes the best things in life are free.


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> I have a bird that placed 13th overall Nationally in the Middle Distance category. 2009 AU APC 632. He scored:
> 
> 9th @ 200m, 704b, and 60L
> 6th @ 200m, 347b, and 31L
> ...


This bird does not have anything else to prove - I would stock! If he cannot produce with one or two hens - back on the race team.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> I think there are so many "good" pigeons on the market you can buy that you shouldn't have to worry about losing a good racing bird from your loft.
> 
> 
> He needs to find out if this bird will breed winners. Not every good bird will breed winners will it be the firs bird he buys that breed a good bird, or will it be the tenth bird.
> ...


I have the luxury of not having to worry about this. Not flying out of the house gives me the opportunity to keep my good ones in the stock loft. I agree there are many good pigeons out there, but not that many great pigeons. My goal is when all 40 of my breeders breed winners then I can stop putting good birds in the stock loft. But until then all good birds get stocked. If your loft has only produced one winner, it is time to stock the winner and develop a family around it. The rest should go. A wise man said if you do not want to loose your winner, don't fly him. 
The best flier in our club this year had four winners. In that case I would assess which is the best and stock him, fly the rest. This is not a luxury that most have. I had two birds that were equal 1st. I am stocking one that I feel I cannot duplicate. Since the parents of the bird are gone, you cannot duplicate it unless you breed from it.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

When you look at the greats they fly good birds. Their winners race until they reach a certain age. The Janssens flew every bird every day open loft. I am sure some got lost. But it is much easier to race a winner when you have a loft full of them. Once the family is established it is much easier to fly winners. In this case the best is in hand and the loft holds no others. If you loose him then you must start over. Purchase one just like him or start from scratch. Pic any top racer and look at the breeders pedigrees, they are all winners and produce winners. I would hate to be saying, "remember that bird the won for me years ago, what ever happened to him". I would much rather say, "You want to hold the great one, his family has won me multiple prizes".


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Kal-El said:


> That would be logical to fly him and compile his race record, but this is going to be my fifth year flying and it's the first time I've come across a good and consistent bird. I'm just cautious not wanting to lose him. Will still keep debating...


It seems to me you answered your own question here. Stock him IMO.
Kurps


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I just wanted feedback.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

M Kurps said:


> It seems to me you answered your own question here. Stock him IMO.
> Kurps


This was my thought as well.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Try him out as a breeder, and if it doesn't work, race him again. You could do the same with his brother just in case that theory does happen to pan out.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Is everyone really that afraid of losing a good flying bird?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

It's always going to be that foresight/hindsight biases question. 

On one hand, if I race him, he could have an impressive race record, but there are chances that I might lose him.

On the other hand, if I breed him, I could test out his progeny and still have him.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

You might use him for stock this year, then race him the year after.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

If you have been flying for yrs and have several champs its no big deal, but why take a chance on loosing your first.
Dave


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> If you have been flying for yrs and have several champs its no big deal, but why take a chance on loosing your first.
> Dave


That's what I was thinking.
If this is your first consistant bird, you have one that could potentially improve your flock.
To me, improving and producing better birds is better than having one bird that wins me a bunch of pieces of paper, and then gets killed by a hawk.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> That's what I was thinking.
> If this is your first consistant bird, you have one that could potentially improve your flock.
> To me, improving and producing better birds is better than having one bird that wins me a bunch of pieces of paper, and then gets killed by a hawk.


I like this quote! This is going to be my 5th year of flying and this bird is the most consistent bird I have. I believe if I stock him and breed off him and his brother, I will have a strong foundation. I am considering using the "bull system" with him and his brother to see who is the better breeder. Now I'm just looking for a "few good hens."


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

Xueoo said:


> Is everyone really that afraid of losing a good flying bird?


I say Yes stock him and yes why risk losing a good bird if you raised it from an egg and have a proven flyer keep that blood line and be proud of it beeing yours see what his ybs do.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

irishsyndicate said:


> This bird does not have anything else to prove - I would stock! If he cannot produce with one or two hens - back on the race team.


Excellent suggestion!!!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> Is everyone really that afraid of losing a good flying bird?


I would breed a couple off of him and send him to Xueoo. He will fly the crap out of them for you. I would not stock the bird out of fear of loosing it, I would stock it because it is the best you have and the parents are long gone. Protect the genotype.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

That might be a good idea! First, I will test out the bull system and see how many kids I can get.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Another thought. Breed it next year to your best opposite sex bird. Race the youngsters, if they do well keep it in the stock loft. If not put it back on the race team. Should not miss a beat. Also it will have more attachment to home. Race him on eggs, show him his hen etc. More motivation.


Very sound advice, I would stick by this too.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

He had a hen at the beginning of the Old Bird race season, but she was lost on a training toss. He flew the entire season without a mate to come back to. I think I will just keep breeding him for the next season. If the kids don't perform, back onto the race team he goes.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> He had a hen at the beginning of the Old Bird race season, but she was lost on a training toss. He flew the entire season without a mate to come back to. I think I will just keep breeding him for the next season. If the kids don't perform, back onto the race team he goes.


Good plan, now what about the hen for him? Do not dilute the gene pool with just any hen.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> I have a bird that placed 13th overall Nationally in the Middle Distance category. 2009 AU APC 632. He scored:
> 
> 9th @ 200m, 704b, and 60L
> 6th @ 200m, 347b, and 31L
> ...


Thee top guy in our UPC combine, Bob Bankert...who typically wins overall Champion YB/OB year in and year out, flies all of his birds till about 5 years old. At that point, the birds are then selected from for the breeding loft. I took a tour recently of his breeding loft, and it was not uncommon to find a bird with a dozen + diplomas. I remember one of his older breeding males who had like 13 diplomas just for being a 500 mile day bird. So in his case, it would not be uncommon to find a bird with several 1st place wins on the race team. It all comes down to where this bird stands compared to your breeding loft. If your breeding loft is full of "Bred for Stock" type of birds, then maybe you should stock this winner...if on the other hand, your breeding loft is full of mulitple 1st place winners, then this bird has a few more wins to go before he displaces a bird already in your breeding loft. The better the race results and breeding results in your breeding loft, the better a bird must do in racing to even get a chance to spend a day inside that place !


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Good plan, now what about the hen for him? Do not dilute the gene pool with just any hen.


I'm going to look across the board, as in good hens that have bred birds from short, middle, and long distances. The plan is to build a family that will compete and win at all distances.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Warren, I'm fairly new to this pigeon thing. So this is the first real nice bird I have. He did not cost me anything, just feed, time, and training. I've bought pigeons before, spending a lot of money. Just to have a good bird without costing a thing is a great feeling.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If your breeding loft is full of "Bred for Stock" type of birds, then maybe you should stock this winner...



I like what you said SmithFamilyLoft!


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not too keen on "bred for stock." birds. To me, that's a faux label given to a bird that was bred but not raced. If it is inbred, then sure the label may suffice the bird. But if it is crossed already and the owner hopes this bird will breed well without being tested, then the assumption is short-sighted. 

I feel my bird has done very well against good compeition. I feel the next step is to build a family and preserve the performance. Some may say what's the performance value when it's has only done in one year? Others may stock him because that's all that they have in terms of a good bird. I'm in the latter camp.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> I'm not too keen on "bred for stock." birds. To me, that's a faux label given to a bird that was bred but not raced. If it is inbred, then sure the label may suffice the bird. But if it is crossed already and the owner hopes this bird will breed well without being tested, then the assumption is short-sighted.
> 
> I feel my bird has done very well against good compeition. I feel the next step is to build a family and preserve the performance. Some may say what's the performance value when it's has only done in one year? Others may stock him because that's all that they have in terms of a good bird. I'm in the latter camp.


 Sounds like you should just stock this bird then. If you were to lose this bird trying to win another diploma, then you and I both know...that you will be kicking yourself in the azz, and maybe even asking a friend or two to do it for ya !  So, based on what you said in this and other posts, keep this one and hopefully, she will produce a whole bunch more diploma winners for ya ! 

And you are right, it is a very good feeling !! Good job, and good luck in the 2011 breeding season.

PS. You might even consider securing this bird in the breeding loft, and not even letting it out to fly. I lost a sweet bird the other week, after the YB season and everything, from a damn Coopers Hawk !  Can you imagine the horror, after all this discussion, if in the end, your bird now hit's a wire or gets hit by a hawk ? Secure it away, and work on producing the next good one !


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Sounds like you should just stock this bird then. If you were to lose this bird trying to win another diploma, then you and I both know...that you will be kicking yourself in the azz, and maybe even asking a friend or two to do it for ya !  So, based on what you said in this and other posts, keep this one and hopefully, she will produce a whole bunch more diploma winners for ya !
> 
> And you are right, it is a very good feeling !! Good job, and good luck in the 2011 breeding season.
> 
> PS. You might even consider securing this bird in the breeding loft, and not even letting it out to fly. I lost a sweet bird the other week, after the YB season and everything, from a damn Coopers Hawk !  Can you imagine the horror, after all this discussion, if in the end, your bird now hit's a wire or gets hit by a hawk ? Secure it away, and work on producing the next good one !


Yep i think the same thing if you lose this bird you will be kicking yourself in the azz.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

It is time to stock the bird. The bird has one what it takes to be a racer. The rest will just be marketing (and tempting fate) if you continue flying it. Now it is time to test for its breeding ability.


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## warpaint (Dec 10, 2008)

I'd say if the brother got lost and return home but yet this one has a good flying record. MAybe the brother can end up being a better breeder. First things first, you can try to breed a few rounds off of both birds with different hens and see if they produce anything good. Sometimes some birds are just good racers and won't reproduce offsprings with the same qualities. If you look at the import birds and how they are bred, Majority of top knotch birds have raced more than one season and have a consistent flying records of 2 or more years. Offsprings off these birds have won and scored as well in the races. Consistency breeds bird with consistency I think.

Stocking a bird after one season really doesn't let you know how good of a racer he could of been, maybe it was just a lucky year and it scored well. I think that most people who stock a bird after a good season are more afraid of losing it so they stock it and gloat about the one good year they had. It's understandable to stock a bird if it's parents were good racers and siblings as well, because you already know the family has done something.

One other thing is that if the bird is stocked and use for breeding, what do you do with all the other birds that didn't perform, wouldnt want to use them for breeding with the stock bird. Got to get a dynamic hen to the mix.

Just blabbing off my inputs, lol really tired at the moment as well.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> I'm not too keen on "bred for stock." birds. To me, that's a faux label given to a bird that was bred but not raced. If it is inbred, then sure the label may suffice the bird. But if it is crossed already and the owner hopes this bird will breed well without being tested, then the assumption is short-sighted.


I agree with the "bred for stock" comment. I have not been so fortunate to get my racers back to breed. I send them to fly and when they do well the guys do not want to give them back. So sometimes the next best thing are siblings. Funny but I am having good luck using this system. I have been using the same sex sibling method for the stock loft. When I have say three pairs that do not produce and need to be replaced, I will try and bring in my birds that have raced well first. Next I will look for a same sex sibling of a bird that has bred winners. I would much rather stock a bird this way then to repeat a pairing that did not work. When you look at the greats you see many birds that are clones as far as the pedigrees go.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Here's the plan: My brother and I are going to implement the "bull system" with 632 and his older brother 613. They each will be put with three hens for one round. Those three hens will have their own cocks to raise the birds. Then 632 and 613 will get their own hens. The first round off these two matings will be fostered out, then the brothers will get to raise their very own round of young. That should be about 20 half-brothers/sisters and cousins to each other. All the cocks will be raced, and the best handling hens will be bred back to their sires the following year. The young from that year will be bred back to each other. This is three years down the road, but hopefully the decision to keep 632 and 613 now will pay off then. I will keep you guys updated!


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

The point of any competitive sport is to win. In the case of racing pigeons, it is to obtain as many awards as possible. If you have a bird that has the potential to obtain top honors, why not let him or her try? How many more times in your racing career will you get a bird as this to even think about "ace pigeon"?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Xue, I think that hindsight question is less harmful than the one where I'd be kicking myself if I lost 632. I think many would agree that if I can breed equally or better birds than 632 using him as a stud sire, then his legacy as a breeder will far surpass his record as a racer. If things don't turn out for the best in the breeding pen, then 632 will hit the road to add to his race record. So it's basically a win-win situation.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Kal-El said:


> Xue, I think that hindsight question is less harmful than the one where I'd be kicking myself if I lost 632. I think many would agree that if I can breed equally or better birds than 632 using him as a stud sire, then his legacy as a breeder will far surpass his record as a racer.


That is my point exactly. How many will be equal to him? I just think the opposite of most conventional thinking. I go for what I can see and not what can be. I understand yours and everybody else's side though.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> That is my point exactly. How many will be equal to him? I just think the opposite of most conventional thinking. I go for what I can see and not what can be. I understand yours and everybody else's side though.


I would agree 100% with you to fly the bird if he had a loft of birds just like him. That not being the case, I would stock the bird and maybe even stock brothers and daughters of the bird. Might move his loft to a position where your strategy would be the norm. I ran data on my loft a few days ago looking at how many current breeders have bred winning birds. Also ran race records on offspring. Like definitely breeds like. If a cock has bred winners you will see brothers in my loft, if a hen sisters and of course you will see the parents. Strengthen a family. My race winner in ABQ is staying to fly. Why, because I have the parents and sibling breeding in my loft. I need him to win another race.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

As a young bird, 632 flew consistently in the middle of the pack, always coming home, but not first or diplomaed. As an old bird, he was tops. His older brother 613 was lost in the middle of the young bird season and came back one week before the young bird season finished. Now the test is to see which cock is able to pass his genes onto his young. We're going to try crossing the both of them with hens from all distances to see which mating is clicks.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> As a young bird, 632 flew consistently in the middle of the pack, always coming home, but not first or diplomaed. As an old bird, he was tops. His older brother 613 was lost in the middle of the young bird season and came back one week before the young bird season finished. Now the test is to see which cock is able to pass his genes onto his young. We're going to try crossing the both of them with hens from all distances to see which mating is clicks.


That will take years even with the help of fosters.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

fresnobirdman said:


> That will take years even with the help of fosters.


You gotta start somewhere and I would do exactly what he's going to do to establish a family around his best FREE bird. 

Keep us posted!


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

fresnobirdman said:


> That will take years even with the help of fosters.


Hopefully three years minimum.


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

3 years that may be true. That means that he will have a very good team 2013. If he waites it maybe 2016 or 18. Go Team.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

GEMcC5150 said:


> 3 years that may be true. That means that he will have a very good team 2013. If he waites it maybe 2016 or 18. Go Team.


Thanks for the kind words!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

warpaint said:


> I'd say if the brother got lost and return home but yet this one has a good flying record. MAybe the brother can end up being a better breeder. First things first, you can try to breed a few rounds off of both birds with different hens and see if they produce anything good. Sometimes some birds are just good racers and won't reproduce offsprings with the same qualities. If you look at the import birds and how they are bred, Majority of top knotch birds have raced more than one season and have a consistent flying records of 2 or more years. Offsprings off these birds have won and scored as well in the races. Consistency breeds bird with consistency I think.
> 
> Stocking a bird after one season really doesn't let you know how good of a racer he could of been, maybe it was just a lucky year and it scored well. I think that most people who stock a bird after a good season are more afraid of losing it so they stock it and gloat about the one good year they had. It's understandable to stock a bird if it's parents were good racers and siblings as well, because you already know the family has done something.
> 
> ...


Sure Bet was 2 weeks late from a race. You never know.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> Here's the plan: My brother and I are going to implement the "bull system" with 632 and his older brother 613. They each will be put with three hens for one round. Those three hens will have their own cocks to raise the birds. Then 632 and 613 will get their own hens. The first round off these two matings will be fostered out, then the brothers will get to raise their very own round of young. That should be about 20 half-brothers/sisters and cousins to each other. All the cocks will be raced, and the best handling hens will be bred back to their sires the following year. The young from that year will be bred back to each other. This is three years down the road, but hopefully the decision to keep 632 and 613 now will pay off then. I will keep you guys updated!


Pick some good hens or this may all be for lost.


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## warpaint (Dec 10, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Sure Bet was 2 weeks late from a race. You never know.


True, but he also came down from a family of winners that carriess that winning blood. I'd also think that sure bet must have been bred to numerous amount of hens before getting the winning combonation. Not all sure bet winners are directs majorit of them seem to be grandkids and even great greatkids, which has been bred down with some other lines. It might even be the crossings of the other strain that is hitting , but as loong as you see sure bet somewhere in the pedigree , thee credit goes there.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

warpaint said:


> True, but he also came down from a family of winners that carriess that winning blood. I'd also think that sure bet must have been bred to numerous amount of hens before getting the winning combonation. Not all sure bet winners are directs majorit of them seem to be grandkids and even great greatkids, which has been bred down with some other lines. It might even be the crossings of the other strain that is hitting , but as loong as you see sure bet somewhere in the pedigree , thee credit goes there.


Good point, if someone paid 3k for a Sure Bet bird it is a sure bet that that bird will be bred to a good hen. Otherwise the investment might be a waste of money.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> Hopefully three years minimum.


and every year will be better then the last and the enjoyment will increase with every win or close race you have .


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

warpaint, I understand your point. However, I would say that I can try him in the breeding pen along with his brother to see if the kids will fly well. And I think flying against an average of 400-500 birds across a 100-mile front isn't all luck.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> warpaint, I understand your point. However, I would say that I can try him in the breeding pen along with his brother to see if the kids will fly well. And I think flying against an average of 400-500 birds across a 100-mile front isn't all luck.


Yeah! Often the brother or sister of a good racer may be the better breeder though he/she is not as good or even plain bad on the road. Judge the breeder by the quality of its offspring not by its race results. Depending on the distance you race and the type of race, i.e. YB, OB, short or long distance, it can take upto 3 years to find out. You will also need pumpers to switch some eggs as you can't tell without testing at least 6 to 8 youngsters of the different matings. It can also happen that a pair may produce excellent breeders and duds instead of racers. In this case people generally get rid of the whole lot.
Better to concentrate on these two cocks and use the others as surrogate parents during the breeding season. You could use the bull or stallion system and a lot of luck. ;-p


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Pick some good hens or this may all be for lost.


I purchased a couple good hens this past weekend to put into the breeding system. If anyone is interested, I wouldn't mind splitting up the babies evenly if someone provides a hen. I will ship back the hen and the babies of course. But that's probably more forward and wishful thinking. You just never know...


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Sure Bet was 2 weeks late from a race. You never know.


If I'm not mistaken he broke his wing so pretty impressive that he made it home in the first place.  Don't get me wrong though, I'm not a big fan of the Sure Bet craze.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

It was Sure Bet's determination that won Victor admiration.


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## warpaint (Dec 10, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> warpaint, I understand your point. However, I would say that I can try him in the breeding pen along with his brother to see if the kids will fly well. And I think flying against an average of 400-500 birds across a 100-mile front isn't all luck.


Well, all I'm saying that a bird can do good a season an flop out the following yr, and the yr after. I've seen my fair share of birds that I thought were to valuable and I too was afraid of losing those birds that did perform a certain year. I would put them in the breeding loft and tested the kids. The kids were average and made it home on races. But compared to other birds that flew consistently and were flown yr after yr till they have flown 2 old bird season, offsprings off these excelled way over the others. 

you can breed it and hope off springs will perform but like you stated and others have, it will take a few yrs before you get something great or not. I'd say you might need another super cock or hen to play with as well in case that family don't perform or else you be stuck flying just that family of birds.

I'm curious on your acquisitions you acquired. If I may asked, are they winners or proven flyers with good results ass well? or Just paper birds? You seem unsure of yourself by asking forum members to loan you a hen so I'd thought I ask.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I purchased three hens at the auction last week. One is an inbred Van Loon, one is off a family that has done well in the SAMDR, and the last one is bred off money winners. They're all different, so I'm going to use the bull system and see which mating clicks. If all else fails, I could always just fly 632. 

And the part about borrowing a hen and splitting the progeny, I just read in a book that that's the most cost effective way to obtain a daughter to breed the stud sire to by way of borrowing an unrelated hen. It's looking to be an exciting upcoming year!


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Put that bird back in the races! We want to race against it one last time. for some more info on this bird 632 raced against the 3rd National Ace 4717 it was quite a duel for sure! 2nd to none in our federation of 64lofts! That 4717 was a monster of a flying machine at the short distances top 5% everyrace. It would be nice to get another ace award for 632! Breed 2 rounds and send'm back!


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

That's a possibility, but breeding two rounds might make him start to drop his flights. Still debating.


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