# Young pigeon limping



## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Hello,

3 weeks ago some friends found a baby pigeon fallen on the ground. Since there were cats in the area, they took it and kept it in a box for a week, when they needed to go out of town so the young pigeon ended up with me. At the time, based on pictures found on the internet, it looked @3 weeks old. It has been living freely in my apartment for the past 2 weeks, eating on its own, and with me trying to get it used to flying as much as possible in an apartment. 

This morning he looked rather depressed so I figured maybe it's time to let it rejoin his own people - so I took it to a nearby park where I knew there are a lot of pigeons. Things looked fine, he started grazing in the grass with the others, and after a while I left him there. I went back in the evening, because he's not a particularly good flyer and to my sadness, I found it sitting in the grass and with a limp leg. It doesn't show any injury, but it's not putting that leg down at all. I brought it home, put his food near it, and he's been eating, but otherwise sitting down. He's been rather skinny from the start and still looks skinny, even if he's had as much seed and he wanted to eat - I fed him the millet mix I feed my finches, it's supposed to have vitamins and stuff in it. 

I'm afraid that until Monday I have no means of getting him an X-ray. Is there immediate danger?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Could you pls post a photo? He may be too young to fly and i am very glad you retrieved him and tgat he is eating! Would not release him right now. He may have splay leg or a vitamin deficiency and people here hopefully will address that soon. Again thank you for rescuing him!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Here are 3 pictures: first one, the one on the floor is taken when I brought him to my place, 2 weeks ago. The other 2 are taken 2 days ago. I don't have a picture of it after I re-picked him from the park, and it's currently sleeping, but will take one in the morning. Meanwhile, it pooped too, and it looks normal, as far as I can tell. 










Really worried about the leg :S.

Post doesn't seem to put pics, so here is the link to where I uploaded them: http://imgur.com/a/4XTWA
Earlier I took it a bit, and he does move the leg a little, so it's not dead, just doesn't put its weight on it at all. I think it's hurting. Any medicine that could help him?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

For one thing he is too young to release and won't survive out there. He isn't even a strong flyer yet, which is needed to evade hawks and find food and water, and keep up with a flock. Even a month from now, if you just let him go, he will probably not survive. He has been raised by people, so doesn't have parents to teach him all that he needs to know to survive in the wild. And doesn't have a flock to help keep him safe. He doesn't know where to find food or water, a safe place to roost at night. And not being part of a flock, he can't survive on his own. Just letting him go where there are other pigeons isn't enough. The members of that flock will just pick on him, which may be what has happened to him now. There are threads on here that talk about soft release, which is what would be needed. Slowly introducing him into a flock. Even then his chances of making it are not great, but are better than just letting him go.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

While sitting with him in the park, a few times bigger pigeons did pick on him, mostly because he is very curious and kept sticking his nose closely at what they were doing/pecking. After a few pokes, he seemed to get the point and kept a safer distance from the others. 

I'm not eager to get rid of it, I was just worried he would get used to people too much - I reckon it's too late for that. I tried to catch it minimally - mostly to make him try flying, so he doesn't get used to being handled. I will look for topics on soft release, but pretty sad to hear his chances are low . In a month from now the weather will start going cold here.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

With the cold weather coming, it's a terrible time to let him go. And he wouldn't be ready for another month anyway. Can you find him a home with someone who has pigeons?
If he tries to join the flock, he will get injured by the other birds.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Oh he's really quite adorable isn't he? Thank you for looking after him so well and I can tell you want what's best for him. Jay is right that he won't survive outside on his own now, he'll either get eaten, bullied or just starve to death so it's important for him to be looked after by humans, to him humans are his family. Do you have any bird sanctuaries out there they may be able to take him? Some sanctuaries integrate birds so as they can later be soft released with a flock they have lived with for a while and their chances together are much greater. Other than that there must be people who keep pigeons there somewhere and they may have room for a little guy like him. I know he's not a racing pigeon and I don't know if racing people would take on a stray pigeon but perhaps people who keep homing pigeons might give him a home. 
He's lovely and I hope you find somewhere for him to go if you can't keep him yourself.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with Jay3 and FredaH about not releasing him now. He is young and really cute. Hope you will decide to keep him as he seems tame and dependent on people to survive.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I will see about finding people who keep pigeons, but for now he will stay with us. I do want what is best for it, but for now it seems I made a terrible choice yesterday in trying to let it go. I wish I posted here first, instead of just reading a couple of topics .
However, his leg has not improved over night, and it's breaking my heart to see it struggling on one foot like that. The only thing that has improved is the fact he's squirming again like hell when he's caught. I found a veterinary who works Sundays too, and I'm waiting for a decent hour to call (it's 6 am here), but will there be any use in lack of an Xray? I went to him before and he sent me somewhere else for Xray.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Cant tell from the photos which are lovely about his foot. Hopefully it will improve. Does it look at all swollen or anything? Sometimes a bird will get a string wrapped around a foot. Does the bottom if the foot look normal? For pain our vets use meloxicam but it needs the right dose. Would get hom well fed and rested and see how he does. Please make sure the vet knows that the bird is valuable and your pet because some vets dont care about and just euthanize pugeons.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Is he just holding the leg up? He was out for a short time. I think one of the other pigeons probably injured it. Most likely he just needs to rest it. 
I don't understand why you would just leave him there when you said he wasn't a particularly good flyer. Also you saw others peck at him and he then distanced himself from the flock. What did you think was going to happen?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Yes, he is just holding the leg up. Sadly I have no experience with wild birds. I looked on the internet, found out they are meant to leave the nest when they are around a month old. My bigger fear was that he will get too used to people, and that is not a good thing for a wild bird. Everyday I would see it sitting on the window sill looking outside, seeming completely depressed - and I know sometimes wild birds die from being captive. Yesterday he looked particularly down, just drooping near the window. For the flying part, there is no way for me to tell how good of a flyer he could be - since there's not much room where he can do that in an apartment. My finches fly normally from the first day they leave the nest, but they have the care of their parents. For the others picking on him, those that did do it, picked on everybody, not just him, and he seemed to learn quickly to just dodge. It looked so happy grazing in the grass that I didn't have the heart to take it back - but I also didn't have the option to stay there all day, as I had to get back to work. I don't regret taking it out, I do sorely regret leaving him alone.

I managed to find a vet and took it there today. Doctor said the leg is not broken, and he doesn't appear to have any injury, and told me it's safe to let it free around the house as he's done so far. He also told me he's abnormally skinny for his age and said I could try giving him something for possible internal parasites (he also seems to have some in his feathers too). I got him a spray and a pill for possible parasites, also a cream for pains, and I treated it as best as I could. Today I had to go on a trip, and I just got back - found it sleeping in the kitchen. Leg doesn't show any improvement sadly. It's not squirming when I'm massaging the cream into it, so I hope it's not hurting too badly. I'll check closer if he's eaten enough from now on.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Thank you for continuing to care for him! See if his leg improves as he gets food into him and rest.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Please don't put any creams for pain on him unless it is made for birds. Many of the things made for people are toxic to birds. The vet is incorrect about him being loose in the house when you are away. There are too many things that he can get injured or into trouble if loose. He should be safely caged when you are not there to watch him. He also needs to be kept caged and quiet to rest that leg. He needs to be kept quiet, in an enclosure with food and water to eat, drink, and rest. That is what is best for him right now.

I had mentioned that he wasn't a particularly good flyer, because you had said that.
You are putting human emotions on him by thinking that he looked depressed sitting in the window. Don't do that. He was probably content to just watch what was going on outside. He hasn't lived free as he is still a young bird, so he doesn't miss what he hasn't gotten used to. Young pigeons also need their parents to teach and guide them and continue feeding them when they come out of the nest. They know how to do nothing, so will just sit there and starve until a hawk or something else grabs them.
Actually pigeons shouldn't be wormed until at least 3 months old, unless you are sure that worms are the problem. De-wormers are toxic. 
He is under weight. He will be much more likely to eat if confined to a cage with the food and water. If roaming around the apartment, he will be less likely to eat what he needs to in order to get weight on him. Millet isn't really a good feed for a young pigeon. Can you get a dove mix? Or add to what you are feeding him, like split peas, lentils, cracked corn, barley, oats, a bit of safflower? Pigeons needs are different than finches needs.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Sadly they did not have any special creams for birds, just something for dogs. I did try to put him in a box, but it won't stay in it, just flops out. I can try find a taller box. I don't have a cage fit for it.

I'm sorry about the de-wormer, I just did what the doctor told me :/. He couldn't figure out why is it so skinny at 5-6 weeks of age. Now I have an extra reason to be scared. I gave him the pill 12 hours ago, when should I assume he's safe from it?
He is eating on his own, he's done that from the start -he knows how to find his box where he has food and water from any part of my apartment. I also put seed on the carpet for him because he kept pecking on it, so i figured it should have something to peck. He was pecking in the grass too. There's no such thing as pigeon feed in shops here, but I got him some un-treated wheat, and I can find him at least some of the stuff you mentioned. He's eaten wheat today, I checked him. I did give him corn meal in the start, but he preferred millet and never touched the corn.

Thank you a lot for the help, it's really appreciated.

Edit: forgot to mention, I think I found the spot that is hurting, judging by his reactions. Feels like the joint is sore. Anything I can do about it, if cream is not recommended?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They wouldn't eat corn meal. It's too finely ground. It is nowhere like seed. You can buy split peas and lentils in the market, as people use it for soup.
Usually pigeons are dewormed again in three weeks, but don't do that. Wait till older.
Can you not either get him a cage, or make some sort of cover to put over the box that lets air and light in. Maybe even a net of some sort. He really is not safe running around when you are not there. If he gets injured, it will be because you have left him out unsupervised. Would you do that with a baby or a puppy? He shouldn't be running around anyway. He needs to rest the leg. You ask if you can do anything about the injured leg. Yes. Keep him contained where he will rest it. Let him out for short periods of time when you are there to supervise him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'll try make an enclosure for him in the balcony, I'd already have 3 walls there. It's a closed balcony.
Thank you again!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That would be great, but would have to find a way to give him shade as well so that he can go into the sun or shade.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Balcony only has sun a little in the afternoon, but it has blinds as well so I can arrange those.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That sounds good.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Will he be ok in there? I blocked the way to the apartment with the grates from my finches aviary separator and the laundry drier. I also blocked the way under the table in the balcony with some boxes. That's one of the window sills where he used to sit and watch outside, I was quite happy to find him climbed up there by himself a week ago. 
http://imgur.com/a/Ih8S7

On the eating part, I saw it eating several times today but can't feel much in his gizzard. Should I try to force feed it if I see tonight that he's not eaten enough.
Still poops like a champion. Karma was a ***** and he stepped into his own poop today - had to clean its good leg.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I went to a nature shop today and got him some lentils (chose a small, orange kind), some sunflower seed and some oat mash that might be too small. It also has wheat. Found pigeon mix on the net in another town, but will take few days to arrive. Also managed to track somebody at the veterinarian university, I know they have x-Ray machine there, to take a 2nd look at its leg. 

It seems to deeply hate me now. If I put my hand anywhere near it, it will bite me with all it's got. It's not really hurtful, but it tries.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Saphira, if he is biting he is just defending his home. Ours do that too. He needs to be in a cage right now so you can get him cared for. Thank you for getting better food for him. He is more likely to get tame if he is caged.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be aby change regarding his leg, he's still not putting it down. Seems to eat less since put in confinement, could it be he's not used to new food and needs some times? How long should it be until he should start putting that leg down if it's only a concussion? I talked to somebody at the university for an X-ray, but not sure when they will find some time for me.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Took some pictures of the leg: http://imgur.com/a/ngW8i


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh the poor thing. Can't tell if it is the leg or the foot.
It isn't a concussion. That is when you injure your head. How can we tell you how long it should be till he can use the leg, when we cannot be sure exactly what he did to it, or how badly. He needs to rest it for now, so shouldn't be running around. Soaking it in warm water may help it to feel better.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Sorry about the confusion, English is not my native language! Direct translation doesn't always work.
I'll do the warm water thing, thank you. Sadly the guy at the uni didn't answer calls today, guess busy. The vet I went to on sunday stretched the leg and poked it to see if it reacts. I saw the pigeon scratching its nose with the bad leg - reckon it doesn't have much choice in that dept.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he was scratching with it, then he can use it. I think it probably just needs time to rest, so it doesn't keep injuring it by running around. I think it will be alright in time.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I managed to get him to the university, but the guy there said there's no need for x-Ray, leg isn't broken, and he gave me some medicine (anti-inflammatory if that's the correct word) to give him once a day, 0.1 ml dose, for max 5 days. He also gave me some B vitamins to put in his water. I got special pigeon feed meanwhile. 
My little guy is still not putting his leg down, but there seems to be a slight improvement.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I didn't think it was broken. Just injured. I'm glad there seems to be an improvement.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Good morning all! Things are going well, my pigeon is still limping but definitely putting its foot down. Seems happy with the new food, and feels like it put on a bit of weight. It's flapping its wings a fair bit too. Today it's the last dose of anti-inflamatory medicine.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad to hear he is improving.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Hope he is better soon.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

My pigeon is still favoring a leg and he prefers standing on the good one, but there's been clear improvement the past few days. Last night I found it sleeping on the window sill, so he flew up there - and became rather violent when I wanted to get him off - was afraid it might fall, since the sill is a bit sloped inwards - pecked me like no tomorrow, so I let him sleep there. He's flapping around occasionally, getting himself off the ground slightly.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Things seem slowly but surely improving with the leg, it's still slightly limping and noticed that when he's scratching his nose with the good leg, and has to stand on the bad leg, he's a bit wobbly. I'm suspecting it's a he because he's rather aggressive, bites any hand or foot in his range and if I decide to poke him he will follow and attack passionately. I don't know if he actually enjoys the "fighting" or I'm just annoying him, but he seems to lack interaction and he's pretty funny when he bites (getting pretty hurty too, can tell he got stronger). Especially at night, if I go check on it if I hear him fretting, he will bite like a devil. I'm worried because he chose to sleep on the window sill, which is a bit sloped and when I hear him walking on it in the dark, I'm afraid he could fall. He chose that spot a few days ago and even if I tried to discourage him - for the sake of my morning sleep, as I work late usually - he won't have any of my complaints and I don't have the heart to lock him out. Second evening after choosing that spot he got fooled by the light in the office and it got dark so he had to wait till I turned the light on in the bedroom to get to his spot, and since then, he's "preemptively" going in the balcony around 6 pm and night gets him setup on his sill. Every morning he wakes up before 7, gets off his sill, eats, then proceeds flapping next to my bed until I let it out. He inspects the rest of the house, flaps some more and goes to nap in the office. Before his accident, he used to sometimes watch outside from the window sill, he never does that anymore, he spends his day napping in various places, flapping occasionally, and battling the office carpet. I saw it eating the occasional round paper bit. I tried to give him seed to peck, but no, he wants plastic, or whatever is on the carpet. Sometimes it looks like he wants to dismantle the thing.

I have another issue with his feeding. He always has seed in his crate, but he chooses the dark coloured seed. Whoever sees it when I tossed a fresh handfull, would think I'm starving him, the way he tears through it. He follows me if he sees me going to the bedroom, and if he hears the sound of seed, he charges. He's extremely enthusiastic about black sunflower seed, some tiny black seed (had those in the canary feed too) and some brown medium sized ones. I tried to tempt it with peas on the carpet, and while he chased it around, he seemed to not be able to swallow it. I crushed some peas and corn and he seemed interested in the pea bits, not so much in the corn. He was also mostly un-interested in the shelled sunflower seed. Should I just "toughen up" and not give him more food until he eats the rest too?

Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH-qoWnbvco&feature=youtu.be

He's growing new feathers all the time, we're laughing at his white "underpants". Posting a pic of the food bag and the food crate where you can see what he ignores. He also picks the small white seed that look a bit like sunflower ones. Sorry about the large pics, no idea how to shrink them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

In that video, you are upsetting him. Pigeons do not like hands, and he is defending himself against yours. That will not make for a friendly bird. Will just make him wild. Really a bad idea to do that to him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

If it's upsetting him, I will stop doing it, but I kinda don't want to make him a friendly bird either. He is a wild bird and I hope he will find a wild life, not an apartment pet one. I really resent keeping wild birds captive.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm glad he is doing better. Be careful giving him so much freedom. too easy for them to get into trouble on their own. If he is eating the sunflower and safflower over the other seeds, that's normal for him to like those, but they are very high in fat. So too many aren't good for him. They're like kids who don't like their veggies. LOL. Lots of my birds don't like the large things, like corn or peas. Some do. If you want him to expand his taste, maybe you can just add a bit of new seed, but not much, to the left over seed. If hungry he will eventually try the other seeds and eat those too.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Regarding the food, that is what I do - just give him a little - like 1-2 spoonfuls of it 2-3 times a day. He eats more often than that, so he does eat the others too, he'll just eat the black ones on sight, even if he just ate. I'm thinking about crushing the peas and corn so he can eat them easier. Would putting some seed to sprout be a good idea?

Regarding the freedom, I could only block him with the curtains, since my balcony doesn't have a door. After about a week from his injury I woke up in the morning with it climbing/flying up the curtains, and that scared me, it could hurt his leg. On one hand, I don't want to have it completely returned to the street, but neither do I want to keep it from flying his entire life. If I built a cage connected to a window that can stay open permanently, would it return there to eat? The guy at the uni said one they released does return for food. I do have wild pigeons in the attic, but you said they won't accept him.


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

Saphira said:


> If I built a cage connected to a window that can stay open permanently, would it return there to eat? The guy at the uni said one they released does return for food. I do have wild pigeons in the attic, but you said they won't accept him.


That's essentially a soft release, which is ideal if you don't have conspecifics or a flight cage where they can learn to forage and fly. He may keep coming back, or he may find a flock of pigeons to join. It will give him the choice. Just keep him in the outdoor cage for a week or more before opening it. 
I've never seen excessive bullying when releasing pigeons near the flock that lives near the rehab center where I work. They have enough space, and the babies have somewhere safe to retreat if they need it. They usually join the flock within a few days, and want nothing to do with us.

Fighting your hand like in that video is not something a wild bird would do. They will flee whenever possible, and only fight if they're cornered. Your pigeon is habituated, if not friendly. He's certainly young enough that he can wild up, if given enough space.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I know the fact he's not running from my hand isn't a particularly good thing. I stopped poking him anyway since I was told it's upsetting him.
He's started following us around the house, especially when we arrive home after missing for a while. 3 days ago I got home after dark and I assumed it had gone up his window sill to sleep, but I found it in front of the bathroom when I came out of it. It followed me to the bedroom, and I put him on the window sill, and he went to sleep almost at once. It's started to do short flights on his own around the house - yesterday when going to the bedroom it followed me flying.
Today he had a new "request". When I got out of the shower I found it sitting next to his water box attempting to splash - but it's to small. I've set a bowl of lukewarm water on the floor, splashed it a bit and left. Found the water all splashed later, and he's sleeping on one of my tshirts - looking pretty wet. 

I'm worried it's gotten too used to people, though I avoid handling him and he's got decent reflexes of running away - except if you stick a finger or foot under his nose - then he will attack. He's not limping anymore at all, but temperatures outside dropped to 6-7 celsius during the night. He's still growing feathers and just started small flights, so I'm worried that a month from now, when he'll probably be ready to be free, it will be cold. On the other hand, keeping him till spring might make it too tame. How should I go about it?

I'm not denying I'm not happy at the thought of not having it around anymore, but I want him to be happy.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

He sounds pretty tame now. Are you sure you dont want to just keep him? By speing he will be very tame. There is nothing wrong with that. Our first pigeon was an injured feral who we adopted who was quite happy.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

That would mean he's never gonna get to fly and never gonna be with his own kind. I live at the 8th floor of a building in a pretty high traffic area. If he could be "the first", it would be good, but raising several pigeons in an apartment is unlikely - I gotta say even one is pretty messy. Sure I could restrict him to the balcony, but that would be a true cage. I did poke around for breeders, but tbh, people that keep pigeons here often cook them with cream if they're not some fancy racer.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

My pigeon's leg seems fully restored and he's started flying higher around the house - I've been away a lot but my husband told me he's spent a good part of yesterday on top of the fish tank. He's also started to get that green luster on the neck. I'm really undecided about what to do with him - temperatures outside dropped under 0 during nighttime, it's unusually cold for this time of the year. On the other hand, he seems to be molting. Is it a sign of stress or something natural at this time of the year? He's lost a couple of large tailfeathers and wherever he stops to clean his feathers he leaves a handful of them.
Here are some new pics: https://imgur.com/a/GX0UY


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, he is probably molting. Glad he is doing better, but wouldn't release him with the cold weather coming. He needs time to acclimate and figure things out when released, and if done at the start of the cold weather, puts him at more of a disadvantage.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Then he's got 6 months of living in an apartment incoming and I'll see how things will be in spring.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Is there no one in your area that keeps pigeons? You may be able to find a place like that who would take him. Or a place who may have other pigeons to be released?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I don't know personally or via peers anybody that keeps pigeons. I know there is a market for animals on Sundays and I saw pigeons for sale there in the past - but not knowing them, I'm not sure how much I could trust them not to cook my guy. I will go there and have a chat with them hopefully in the weekend. All my options at this moment have pros and cons - keeping it with us would be safe, but he would lack his own kind and generally freedom, giving it to a breeder (if they even accept a stray) would be risky, and life in the streets is tough, especially with winter coming. This is one of those moments when I wish I lived somewhere with a yard.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't think a breeder would want a bird like that. They would be either breeding a particular breed, or for a particular reason. I just meant someone who keeps some as pets.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I posted a question in the facebook tank group I'm in (fish tank) and somebody replied they are willing to take it. I asked to see where he keeps the pigeons and I'm going to pay him a visit tomorrow. I have to admit it feels very sudden and I'm rather unhappy to let my pigeon go, as I got extremely attached to him, and I'm trying to tell myself it would be better for him to have pigeon friends but part of me wants to not like the place.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They do grow on you. I'm glad you're checking out the place. You don't want to leave him where it isn't safe or where they don't care about their birds. I think you will get a feel one way or the other when you see it. Do they seem nice, or haven't you gotten a feel for them yet?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I know I'm going to sound fickle now, but I decided against giving it away, at least today. The person that offered did not give me a good feeling, starting with the rather dry message "I can take it, can pick it up tomorrow between 3 and 4" and ending with the fact that the person doesn't have a single picture with a pet on his fb page (yes, I became a bit of a stalker". He's on a lot of sale groups instead. I love my fishes, you will find pics of them on my fb, my friends love cats, they have pics of cats. I find it unlikely that somebody keeping pigeons wouldn't have a single picture of it, or any other animal.

I found my pigeon this morning on the edge of the bed, watching me. Usually it made a ruckus flapping to wake me up, but today it just stood there patiently. Then it started looking back and forth from me to the food bag. I noticed peas are missing from what he leaves uneaten. He still doesn't fancy corn and wheat. During the day he seems to favor sitting on certain objects - either a box or a bag or one of my t-shirts, for which I am grateful, as they are easier to clean than carpets and couch.

Am I selfish and just looking for excuses to not give it away? I'm a bit melancholic, I lost 2 pets this weekend - a finch that was looking off for a while and died on sunday and a fish I had for 3 years. On the other hand, one of the finches chicks left the nest today first time. He's one of two babies, that followed 2 more earlier this year, all healthy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you didn't have a good feeling about that person, then you shouldn't let him/her have the bird. Poor thing depends on its owner to care for it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I didn't have a good feeling, so decided against giving it away. Unless I meet somebody that I can tell cares about birds from talking to them, he's gonna stay with us. 

I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I have a low attic on top of my apartment (I live at the last story). I sometimes heard pigeon noises from there, but I never went there. There's a hatch in my balcony to get there, and yesterday I went up to see how it looks. That part of the attic is only ontop of my balcony, it has about 1 m height at its maximum. From how the floor looks, it's obvious pigeons live there. They get inside through a water collecting pipe that runs through the attic from another part of the roof and I think they can also get there through a crack on the side. When I poked my head in, there was a pigeon inside. My husband told he he saw a nest with 2 eggs in it too. When spring comes, would it be a good idea to start getting my pigeon used to other pigeons in there? Like in a cage, to be protected in case the others attack him? Or would it be considered a serious intrusion in their home by others? I would like to get him used to come back there, so he has a shelter and I can feed him (and the others). The space is about 5 meters long, 1.5 meters wide, maximum height about a meter, minimum height few centimeters.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm a bit worried about my pigeon. I noticed his poops are sometimes watery, is that normal? It's not always, but often enough. He also sometimes sounds like coughing. 

In other news, today he climbed on my shoulder. I don't handle him unless I need to get him off someplace I don't want him to be (like on top of my monitor) and he's still scared of hands, but after flying around the office for a while, he climbed the chair top, then hoped on my desk, and then up my arm.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could be anything. Sickness, nervous, diet. Their droppings change all the time. The coughing doesn't sound good though.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's made that sound from the start, it's not exactly coughing, more like he's trying to spit something. I'm always worried about the fact that he seems to peck all kinds of stuff from the floor. I looked down his throat a few times, but never noticed anything out of the usual. He's had it before I took him to the doctors. He's eating normally, and is active - actually more active than before his accident. Lately he's flying up the furniture - and likes to sit on the aquarium top (it's got a lid).


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If I were you i would keep him. You sound like you are attached to each other and that is ok.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, he's not going anywhere, at least until spring - and he's not going back on the street in any case. If I'll find a good pigeon keeper to give him a family, I still think it would be better for him than being alone with me, although I know I'd miss him. 

Is there any way to determine for sure if he's got any sickness? Anything I could give him to boost his immunity?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I decided to make a trip to the veterinary with my pigeon on saturday, when I noticed him looking like chocking and spitting some liquid a night before. Unfortunately, he's displaying none of that during the day, so the doctor couldn't get a fluid sample, all they did was listen to his breathing - which was apparently normal, take his pulse, which was racing, but the poor thing was scared ****less of 3 people in white coats stretching him, and some other stuff. I got a medicine that's supposed to treat several kinds of respiratory issues to put in his water (it's called Enrofloxacina here, not sure of english correspondent name). He resented massively being held on the way to the doctor and in the waiting room, so I ended up just letting him perch on my hand, which he was happy to do.

On the social side of things, he's losing a good habit that he used to have, which is eating in his crate in the balcony. In the morning, he hops on the bed and walks on me until I wake up, and then follows me around the house while I prepare breakfast. When I sit at the desk to get to work, he starts nibbling my toes delicately, until I give him some food there. I moved his crate at my feet and he ate like that. I'm a bit worried because I'll have to miss from home for 10 days a month from now: my husband is going to be home, but he seems to follow me around mostly. 

I still don't like the place he's sleeping, on the window sill. As the weather gets colder, so does that place. It's not like outside but right next to the glass, the air is cold. He's refused to be moved from there, even if I did it in the dark, he flew back. I'm thinking of attaching some kind of box as a nest there.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You didn't go to an avian vet. They get samples from their throat on a swab. Very easy to do, and may have shown what it is that made him vomit. The sample needs to be looked at under a microscope.
He should have been brought to the vet in a cat carrier or box or something, rather than holding him. Much better and safer for the bird.

Also, if he is alone, and at night for sleeping, he should be confined to a cage. He would get used to it. Letting him do what he wants is not always the best thing for him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

There is no such thing as an avian vet in this town . This guy is the one I found that actually occasionally treated pigeons, otherwise they only deal with cats and dogs and such. Pigeons as pets are unknown here, there are no centers like you have for taking a bird to be safely released or cared for - pigeon or anything else. I also don't own a carrier, as I never needed one, but I'll see into getting one, maybe something that could be dubbed as a nest for the rest of the times. He's not vomiting, he looks like he has a running nose sometimes - during the night. When he does, he shakes his head and the result is a clear slightly yellowish in colour clear gel with a bit of liquid. The only other people other than a vet I could ask are breeders in the market - and I don't know how they are, but the ones that keep aquarium fish in the same market advise using human antibiotics for fish, which was all that was available 20 years ago, but not really today. 

While reading an article about pigeons yesterday here (http://www.pigeonrescue.org/faqs-2/where-can-i-get-pigeon-pants/), I stumbled across the notion of pigeon pants. Since I do not want to keep my pigeon in a cage, a solution to the mess would be very welcome, however, I'm not entirely sure on how well these things work. Does it not make them get dirty? My pigeon spends time sitting down a fair bit, would it not make him literally sit in his own poop?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

After the antibiotic treatment didn't seem to have any good results, I decided to go again to the university and explain to them about taking a sample from my pigeon's neck. I found somebody willing to do that and put it under a microscope. He told me he has a bacterial infection, he can't say what, and prescribed me 7 days of shots and some medicine I need to give him orally. The shots are rather scary for me, so I asked my mom to do it, she's a nurse: they are supposed to be in his chest, in the muscle, alternating left and right each day. He's also got some unique dose nose drops at the university. Yesterday he had the first shot at the university, today we did it home. He doesn't seem distressed by the shots and his nose looks better/less messy. 

On the other hand, yesterday he refused to go to sleep until I did, and when that happened, he refused his usual spot in the balcony and decided he won't leave the edge of the bed. I put a chair near the bed, and he slept there. The only thing I could do to discourage this would be locking him in a cage - which I never did (bought one for a carrier). He's also "chased" my husband out of the bedroom, fluffing at him and cooing and doing the war dance.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The nasal discharge sounds like canker or chlamydia. If chlamydia then doxycycline would be the best med for that.
What drug are you giving him in shots? What is the oral med?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I looked down his throat the first time I heard him wheezing, but never saw anything suspect that would look like canker (I looked around the forum). The guy at uni also looked first for that, he didn't tell me the name but told me how it should look. 

He wrote Spectam on one of the 2 syringes he gave to me, the one with the stuff I need to inject. The other one I'm supposed to give it to him orally, but he didn't write down the name. He gave me 6 small syringes to use for the shots. I think the bottle was pretty large and I only needed 0.6 ml for all doses (it's 0.1 ml per day). He's not technically a vet, he's an assistant teacher at the veterinary university. The problem is I asked around and nobody's heard of vets specialized in birds. I joined a FB group for animal adoptions and they seem to know a lot of doctors around the town, since they are trying to save abandoned animals - and they are often disease ridden. 

I'm quite scared of the shots thing, because years back I had my canaries treated by a vet with a shot and they died horribly shortly after.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't like shots either. 
Canker often does not show in the throat. He can have it internally without being able to see it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Spectam is Spectinomycin which may be very effective against Salmonella and E-Coli. Can also be good for respiratory infections. But if it is Chlamydia then Doxy would be better.
Spectinomycin isn't absorbed through the intestinal tract, so if given orally would not be effective against systemic infections. 
What I have read is that it should be given at 25mg per bird twice a day.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

All I know is that I'll be really stressed until the shots are over. I'll need to go back anyway after the treatment, I was told that the bacterial infection could be a complication from some parasitic thing - no idea what that means. The guy was pretty thorough with the samples - took several of them from throat and off the pigeon's nose. 

I just want to see him healthy.

The dose I have been told to do was 0.1 ml shot/day, and 0.1 ml oral solution per day. Would that be incorrect?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some parasitic thing could mean canker. 
I have no idea of what 0.1ml contains, but I did read 25 mg, and they said twice daily.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Canker is treatable, right?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes it is. Easily treated if caught early.But you need a canker med, like Metronidazole or Ranidizole or something for canker. Regular antibiotics won't treat it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Should the guy at the uni have been able to identify it exactly from those samples? He said he can't tell what bacteria it is, just that it is a bacterial infection. All I know is that he took several samples from the throat (I think he wasn't managing to get enough fluid) and nose and it took about an hour for some "coloration" to appear.

I looked at articles about canker, my pigeon doesn't have any of the obvious symptoms: he eats normally, his feathers look fine, he's active (right now he went to my husband's desk to declare war), he doesn't have any visible sores or growths. Regarding eating, he passed the sunflower seed madness a while ago, now it's all about corn.

I filmed him on monday, before going to the doctor, when it seemed as relevant as it could get, since he's generally displaying the wheezing at night, and none of it when he's taken to the doctor. I caught him when he had gone for a nap under my desk - he's not usually so sleepy, but it's when he's sleepy he displays the symptoms most. Aside from what I caught in the video, he also sometimes opens his beak wide as if he's choking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g5J3CGnbb4&feature=youtu.be


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Excessive mucous in the mouth can cause them to keep swallowing, and breath open beaked at times. Or open beak as if trying to get something out of throat. So can be a canker symptom.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

We've been going through the shots without issues - last one is today. His nose has been clean and dry for a few days - it's actually starting to get that powdery white they seem to normally have, and I haven't seen him doing the constantly trying to swallow anymore. He still occasionally "sniffs" briefly, could that be just something normal? He's been putting up with the shots very well, with only a small flinch. It's curious that he's very friendly to my mother - which he saw when she did the shots mostly and in a couple of visits. Yesterday, being her bday, we went to her place instead of her coming over, and he flew on her shoulder/head - which he's not even doing with my husband. 

Is "waging war" a good pastime for them? As soon as he sees my husband, he would go to coo and bite him - and I think he could go at it for hours. I don't think it's hate, because he enjoys spending time on his desk preening and napping too. He also became curious about our plates with food, he's sticking his nose into everything and "sampling". The sampling got funny when he discovered the unpopped popcorn in our bowl - after peering at us eating the popped one. He ate a few unpopped popcorns, then proceeded to "nest" in the bowl - which caused very soft moisturized feet and shiny chest from the coconut oil. Here's a few new pics: https://imgur.com/a/WMrCf


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