# Bought a pair of Frillback mix with King pigeon. Just not sure how to breed them?



## The Pigeon Girl (Jul 3, 2010)

Hello, I bought this beautiful pair yesterday. They are a cross between mostly or almost all frill back, and then king pigeon. I 've never had a frillback so I have absolutely no clue about breeding, or anything. They are in a sort of small cage that I have darkened and put a pot for a nest with hay. Please help. Thanks.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

hey there I have frillbacks too, Where did you get yours from?


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## The Pigeon Girl (Jul 3, 2010)

A very good friend of mine. And you?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The Pigeon Girl said:


> Hello, I bought this beautiful pair yesterday. They are a cross between mostly or almost all frill back, and then king pigeon. I 've never had a frillback so I have absolutely no clue about breeding, or anything. They are in a sort of small cage that I have darkened and put a pot for a nest with hay. Please help. Thanks.


Hey, Breeding frillbacks is basically the same as breeding any other pigeon, One thing with muffed legged pigeons is they can scoot the eggs or young babies out of the nest so its good to have a lot of nesting material, Also frillbacks have a long tail so make sure you have enough room in the nest for them to stretch out and be comfortable ( maybe yours don't have such a long tail because they are crossed with Kings?


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## g_girl313 (May 31, 2011)

If you are trying to get "more of" of the frillback out of your birds, you should review the AFC standard for these birds and try to find the birds that look most like the standard. This will give you much cleaner and softer curls out of your feathers (There is a huge difference between a frillback mix's curls, and a pure purposed bloodline's curls, not that it really matters unless you're into that kind of thing . As far as making them breed, its really just like any other bird.


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## g_girl313 (May 31, 2011)

Here's the difference...


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

how small is your cage? they will need a lot of room to stretch, move around and flap the wings, let alone raise babies, then they'll need mate too, are they inside or outside?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

The Pigeon Girl said:


> A very good friend of mine. And you?


Got my first pair when I was 12 for $100 the pair, I wont say her name but she had heaps of them. I'm 26 now. I've always been attached to them in a way, they are placid and great lawn birds. they fly really low to the ground almost running as they fly and the young ones like to do 360's when they jump off the roof.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

so it sounds like they are project birds, your friend maybe trying to increase the size of his frillbacks or the shields on his frillbacks. when you say 'almost all frillback' do you mean they are almost pure frillback and a small amount of king?

They could be nice. I would love to see them. can you post a pic?


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

still haven't answered my question on cage size and room for the birds, i would think they would have room to move and fly around before you even think of breeding them..


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## The Pigeon Girl (Jul 3, 2010)

Yes, they are now in a bigger cage. And the breeder i got them from wanted to increase the size. And no I'm not breeding 'mutts'. Like i said, the're more frilllback then king. There only mixed with those to.


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## The Pigeon Girl (Jul 3, 2010)

And about the picture, I'll attempt to now, but I'm on my phone. I don't have internet.


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## g_girl313 (May 31, 2011)

I hate to jump into these kind of things, but I am slightly confused. I don't see anything where Pigeon Girl mentions what the parent's were. It is very well that the hen was 100% frillback, and the cock was split down the middle, or some variant of this. That would result in a bird that is more frillback than king. 

Also, its difficult to interpret people's meaning through text. So yes, they are "mutt" pigeons, however, I prefer to say mixed, as I refer to my stupid idiot dog as a mutt  lol

Again, it would helpful to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish with these birds through breeding, as that will determine how you are going to breed them. Do you want better curls, do you want bigger birds, or do you really not care, and you just want nice birds that will inevitably procreate like their entire race is about to be wiped out and they are God's only hope for saving the pigeon race.


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

out of curiousity, can u post a pic of these frillback cross?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

heres are what i think of the following

mutts- unable to tell what has gone into it
mixes- able to say what has been mixed in
breed in development- mixes which are being made into a breed.

I had some i would call breed in development. They were in development for 40 years. Should they really be called mutts, then the _authoritative_ NPA says we now accept them as a breed and it goes from a mutt one second to literally a pure breed the next?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

A breed is considered a real breed when it is accepted by the NPA. Just like a dog breed isn't considered a real breed until it is accepted by the AKC. However, if your new breed is breeding true and all the traits desired are stabilized, you can go ahead and call it what you want while you're waiting for its standard to be accepted.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

As standard change, people may bring in other breeds to improve or bring in new traits they want. It happens all the time. I can believe that they would put kings with frillbacks to increase the frillback's size. But, the offspring are mixes until they have the correct frillback look again. It's an ongoing process. You have to keep carefully selecting from the offspring and putting them back on frillbacks to keep the form up. When they are stable, you are done 

So, if I were you, I would get some of the largest pure frillbacks you can find. Get a round out of this project pair, then put them all on pure frillbacks. Then take the largest from the pairs, mate them together, then put the best looking kids back on frillbacks, etc.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I don't know... The NPA is accepting it as breed. They don't make it a breed. Im saying in order for the NPA to accept it, it has to be a breed in the first place. Its a catch 22. The NPA accepted it as breed, why?, because it was a breed. its circular. let me put it this way. me accepting you as a nice person doesnt make you a nice person. you would have to had been nice in order for me to accept it.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, it has to be a breed first in that it has a standard made up for it and it breeds true. But it isn't recognized until the NPA accepts it. Labordoodles are not an accepted breed but they are still called a breed by a lot of people. The initial cross is a mutt with a name.

But in the end, a breed is a breed when it is stabilized. When it can have a standard. Even if it isn't recognized yet. There's a TON of breeds in the East that no one here has even heard about. But they all look the same and are stable. And the people have given it a name.


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## The Pigeon Girl (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm sorry you guys. I have no way of uploading a picture.. I'm not really intrested in if there are more curls , or how big they are. I just want some squabs fromm them . Thats all. And how did the part where everyone is saying, "whats the other 25% of the breed?" come in? All i know, is when I bought them, the man said ," these are my frillbacks. " i said, "oh, they look like mixed kings." he said basicallly he wanted to create a larger version of the frillback.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

"The new breed must have a sponsoring club that is an NPA affiliate club. Must have a written standard and picture. The breed must be shown at three consecutive NPA Grand Nationals by more than two exhibitors and be Must be judged by at least three judges on separate occaisions. When this has been accomplished the breed club would submit their information along with their standard to the NPA Board of Directors for consideration. The board would then vote yes or no. If approved it could be included in the next book of standards. The reason for this is too make sure that the new breed will breed true and will conform to the standard guidelines. This will ensure the breeds popularity so it can go on and not just dry up and disappear. Hope this helps. Steve StClair, NPA Sec"


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

g_girl313 said:


> I hate to jump into these kind of things, but I am slightly confused. I don't see anything where Pigeon Girl mentions what the parent's were. It is very well that the hen was 100% frillback, and the cock was split down the middle, or some variant of this. That would result in a bird that is more frillback than king.
> 
> Also, its difficult to interpret people's meaning through text. So yes, they are "mutt" pigeons, however, I prefer to say mixed, as I refer to my stupid idiot dog as a mutt  lol
> 
> Again, it would helpful to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish with these birds through breeding, as that will determine how you are going to breed them. Do you want better curls, do you want bigger birds, or do you really not care, and you just want *nice birds that will inevitably procreate like their entire race is about to be wiped out and they are God's only hope for saving the pigeon race.*





LOL. That's funny!


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## g_girl313 (May 31, 2011)

lol pigeon girl, i hear ya. I have fantails that are up to no standard, and I just let them do what they do. That's what I would do with these birds. If you just leave them, you'll get squabs. They really aren't any different. 

As a side note, frillback squab's feathers are not really all that curly until after their first molt...

I guess some people just got a little carried away with their own thoughts  lol


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> If they are "almost all" frillback and king, then what is the third breed in them? and why do you want to breed mutt pigeons.


I think she means they are almost back to frillback, So maybe a pure frillback was mated to a 1/4 King 3/4 frillback giving babies that are 7/8 frillback and 1/8 King. 7/8ths being "almost all" frillback



spirit wings said:


> so the parents were 75% frillback and the other 100% king? what is the other 25%?. and yes they are mutts if they are not purebred breeds or some call them a mix.. mutt is not a bad word to me. if their parent birds were say the hen a 100% frillback and the cock 100% king then they would be half king pigeon and half frillback.. Im confused with they are more frillback.. they are at least half king if one of their parents was a king pigeon., Im not sure what almost or more frillback means.


It means they are almost all frillback and have a little king in their make up as I have explained above. She never said one of their parents was a full king.



g_girl313 said:


> I hate to jump into these kind of things, but I am slightly confused. I don't see anything where Pigeon Girl mentions what the parent's were. It is very well that the hen was 100% frillback, and the cock was split down the middle, or some variant of this. That would result in a bird that is more frillback than king.
> 
> Also, its difficult to interpret people's meaning through text. So yes, they are "mutt" pigeons, however, I prefer to say mixed, as I refer to my stupid idiot dog as a mutt  lol
> 
> Again, it would helpful to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish with these birds through breeding, as that will determine how you are going to breed them. Do you want better curls, do you want bigger birds, or do you really not care, and you just want nice birds that will inevitably procreate like their entire race is about to be wiped out and they are God's only hope for saving the pigeon race.


Spirit Wings - As G_girl313 has said pigeon girl has not mentioned anything about a third breed

Haha it is funny



Print Tippler said:


> heres are what i think of the following
> 
> mutts- unable to tell what has gone into it
> mixes- able to say what has been mixed in
> ...


Agree completely with 

mutts- unable to tell what has gone into it
mixes- able to say what has been mixed in
breed in development- mixes which are being made into a breed





spirit wings said:


> Im thinking the way it is going you can just call any pigeon whatever breed you would like to call them on whatever day you would like too. I decided my half jacobin and half fairy swallow are capuchines today.. lol..


by your previous posts wouldn't you consider these pigeons are just mutts. 

I don't think you can call them capuchines as they would not breed true to standard. In simpler terms - you would get all sorts of funny looking pigeons if you were to put your " capuchines " (1/2 jacobin - 1/2 fairy swallows together)



MaryOfExeter said:


> As standard change, people may bring in other breeds to improve or bring in new traits they want. It happens all the time. *I can believe that they would put kings with frillbacks to increase the frillback's size. But, the offspring are mixes until they have the correct frillback look again. It's an ongoing process. You have to keep carefully selecting from the offspring and putting them back on frillbacks to keep the form up. When they are stable, you are done *
> 
> 
> So, if I were you, I would get some of the largest pure frillbacks you can find. Get a round out of this project pair, then put them all on pure frillbacks. Then take the largest from the pairs, mate them together, then put the best looking kids back on frillbacks, etc.


Agree completely, As My flatty Luke " the pigeon key " has already said they used modenas back in the day to increase the size of the wing shield therefore meaning more curls



spirit wings said:


> ok.. so they are frillback pigeon mixed with king pigeon, *half frillback and half king..according to your guess*, they are mixed with king or did he say that?..anyway Im sure you have lovely king/frillback pigeons there, still not sure what your breeding for..beside to have some babies?... breeding back to frillbacks can get you more frillback "like" or closer to looking like true frillback pigeons if you want...but does not sound that way...so it is unclear what your project is.


They never guessed half and half.

Do they need a project, They never said these were their project birds, They got them from someone conducting a project and it sounds to me they want to enjoy the pigeons for what they are, Good on them.


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## g_girl313 (May 31, 2011)

so seeing as how this thread has been hijacked far from its original intent, might I ask how new zealand is this time of year NZ? I've always wanted to visit.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

g_girl313 said:


> so seeing as how this thread has been hijacked far from its original intent, might I ask how new zealand is this time of year NZ? I've always wanted to visit.


Hehe, Yes It has been hijacked, I did put in a post early on about breeding frillbacks but it seems some people got sidetracked and confused with regards to what the birds are, I thought that was pretty obvious to be honest. 

Anyways NZ is nice at this time of year - Apart from today.... its raining. If you do visit come to shaky christchurch and check out my birds, I can also show you round a few other fanciers lofts. Here in NZ we are limited on breeds and the breeds we do have a dying out as there are not enough fanciers, You will notice we ( nz'ers ) keep a lot of different breeds as it seems the only way to preserve them and stop them becoming extinct to our country ( we cannot import birds ) once the breed is gone its gone, Unless you recreate it which will take 20 odd years and after the effort there will be noone to take the breed and continue on with it so not too much point, I do like putting new colours into breeds though, My flattie luke is currently putting rec red into his frills and also spread. I am putting spread and indigo into thief pouters and will eventually have some andalusians and some of the other indigo based phenotypes...

Ok I've really Hijacked it now but atleast we are over trying to figure out what percentage of king or frillback these pigeons are.

Sorry the pigeon girl for hijacking, Hopefully my post at the start helps you with getting together a suitable nest for your birds and helps you with breeding them. Just remember pigeons are fun and don't get too serious, aslong as the birds are cared for you can do whatever you like with them - despite what others may think.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ok..lol.. so you have some frillbacks and want to breed them.. first you need a hen and a cock to pair up.. then they usually do the rest. sorry I got lost in your discription, it does not take much for me to get confused.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> ok..lol.. so you have some frillbacks and want to breed them..* first you need a hen and a cocck to pair up*.. then they usually do the rest. sorry I got lost in your discription, it does not take much for me to get confused.[/QUOTE
> 
> lol - Great advice


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

AAAAHHH funny!!!!!! well what ever happens, have fun with your birds, can't wait to see pic's when you figure that out LOL...


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