# Rec. red cock x dunn hen



## Kastle Loft

Some new Trentons I have. Just wondering what kind of colors I might get from them. I don't know what their parents were yet. Any ideas? I'll try and post a better photo. Sorry about the crappy cell phone photo.

Then hen on the left is I believe a dunn (what's a dunn, exactly?? Looks like diluted colors to me). She has very striking gold/yellow color on her neck. The cock looks rec. red to me.

Thanks!


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## MaryOfExeter

There's no telling what you will get. Recessive red masks the true color underneath it. So that means your cockbird could actually be an ash-red or blue bird, but the recessive red gene causes it to look red. 

The hen is actually silver (dilute blue). Dun is spread silver (dilute black). The only difference between silver and dun is the spread factor (which turns blue bars/checks to black). But since yours is a check and not spread it's called silver 

The only thing we can guarantee you right now is that all the children from the pair will carry the RR gene and all the sons will carry dilute as well.


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## thepigeonkey

does the cock have a red tail and flights? any chance of a pic of his tail? Silver check hen is nice


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## Kastle Loft

MaryOfExeter said:


> There's no telling what you will get. Recessive red masks the true color underneath it. So that means your cockbird could actually be an ash-red or blue bird, but the recessive red gene causes it to look red.
> 
> The hen is actually silver (dilute blue). Dun is spread silver (dilute black). The only difference between silver and dun is the spread factor (which turns blue bars/checks to black). But since yours is a check and not spread it's called silver
> 
> The only thing we can guarantee you right now is that all the children from the pair will carry the RR gene and all the sons will carry dilute as well.


In other words, is a dun a dilute spread blue? The guys around here use 'silver' to describe red bars (mealy). And anything diluted is a dun to them. I have to adjust my vocabulary depending on who I'm talking to 

And if a baby is dilute, then it will be a cock? But not all the sons will be dilutes, right?

I guess when I get the peds and see what colors the parents are I'll know a lot more.

This seems like an interesting combination for colors. I'll post more photos today and show the cock's tail better. Thanks! I love learning about this stuff.


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## Kastle Loft

gbhman said:


> I think it would just be easier to call it the dilute of black... if they are still calling red bars "silver" I kind of doubt they will know what a spread blue is I believe the hen also appears to be a slate (smokey). The silvers (dilute blues) have always been my favorite colors Nice birds... good luck with them


Hey thanks. I hope their babies can fly. I'm all for the cool colors, but they gotta fly well to stay in my loft. Now if I can only get them to pair up! The hen just isn't in the mood yet. Been on lights for a month now. She might just be a bit young.

Here are some better photos.


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## sport14692

Nice looking pair !!!


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## APF_LOFT

Kastle Loft said:


> Hey thanks. I hope their babies can fly. I'm all for the cool colors, but they gotta fly well to stay in my loft. Now if I can only get them to pair up! The hen just isn't in the mood yet. Been on lights for a month now. She might just be a bit young.
> 
> Here are some better photos.


the cock is look like my bird may be my bird also si a recessive red


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## MaryOfExeter

Yeah a lot of people do call ash-red bars, "silvers". It isn't correct but it's what they are used to. It took me forever to get my dad to quit calling them "red bar silvers" and just "red bars", LOL. 

But yes you are correct, dun is technically dilute spread blue. AKA dilute black. I've heard indigos, browns, and silver bars/checks called "dun" before.  Just like chocolate is spread brown, I've heard recessive reds and indigos called chocolates too. Different people have different nicknames for colors and until they are corrected, they won't know any better


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## MaryOfExeter

APF_LOFT said:


> the cock is look like my bird may be my bird also si a recessive red


Yep, yours is recessive red too  A very "coarse" one at that, with a lot of the color underneath leaking through. Yours is blue based, which you can tell by the blue feathers and especially the blue/black tail bar.


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## Kastle Loft

Mosca says that a dilute with a RR can give a recessive yellow. Looks like I could get just about anything.


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## MaryOfExeter

Kastle Loft said:


> Mosca says that a dilute with a RR can give a recessive yellow. Looks like I could get just about anything.


Yep  In this case you will only get dilutes in the first generation of kids if the cockbird is carrying dilute. This is because dilute is sex-linked and recessive.


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## NZ Pigeon

gbhman said:


> I think it would just be easier to call it the dilute of black... if they are still calling red bars "silver" I kind of doubt they will know what a spread blue is I believe the hen also appears to be a slate (smokey). The silvers (dilute blues) have always been my favorite colors Nice birds... good luck with them


The hen looks light/mid check, Not slate, If it has an albescent strip on the outer edge of the last tail feathers then its not smokey/slate.


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## MaryOfExeter

Looks vey much like slate to me, at least het for it if nothing else.


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## Print Tippler

I think it could carry rec red. Flights and neck seems different. Maybe a bronze but could be red


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## Kastle Loft

Any ideas of what is behind the intense coloring on the hen's neck? It is very yellow, bronzy.


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## Print Tippler

Kastle Loft said:


> Any ideas of what is behind the intense coloring on the hen's neck? It is very yellow, bronzy.





Print Tippler said:


> I think it could carry rec red. Flights and neck seems different. Maybe a bronze but could be red


. .


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## MaryOfExeter

Could have some kind of archangel bronze going on in the neck. It extends all the way up onto the head.


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## Print Tippler

Is it really any likely that it would be an archangel bronze? Being that is just a homer. Unless it came from someone doing projects.


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## MaryOfExeter

Anything can happen. You hardly ever see any dilutes in racers either.


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## NZ Pigeon

gbhman said:


> Looking at the better pictures it sure looks like the slates I have (only in the undiluted form). As far as I know, slate is pretty common in Trentons.
> 
> As far as the yellowing in the neck, I don't know the genetics behind it but its usually not too uncommon to see it in silvers (more so the hens). I just haven't seen it to that extent covering the entire neck. I usually had it show up more when I crossed a silver with an ash yellow, but again as I recall it was mostly in the hens.


Def could be slate, I always thought the pattern was more smugded up when the smoky gene added, The beak is ivory but Dilute can do that too. A photo of the outer tail feather would settle it. Or the thread maker could tell us if it has the albescent strip on the outer tail feather? It probably is slate but I didn't pick it up, Im Intruiged now to know for sure.


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## MaryOfExeter

I have spoken with some very knowledgable people and there are two theories going on:
1. Silver check slate het for RR
2. Silver check slate het for ember

The thing to keep in mind about trentons was they came in a variety of different colors, some of which it was hard to put names on.


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## rudolph.est

I have a dilute homer hen that also shows the yellow in the neck, and a lot in the breast as well. I was assuming that it was just as a result of the dilute. Sadly I don't have any rec-red to mate her to, in order to test the theory that she might be carrying recessive red.


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## Print Tippler

I just bred a dilute het rec red. It's only about 5 days old but adventurally you could compare.


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## Kastle Loft

MaryOfExeter said:


> I have spoken with some very knowledgable people and there are two theories going on:
> 1. Silver check slate het for RR
> 2. Silver check slate het for ember
> 
> The thing to keep in mind about trentons was they came in a variety of different colors, some of which it was hard to put names on.


Ember? Wha? 

I should have the peds soon so we can see what the parents are. 

In the meantime, does this tail photo tell you slate or not?


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## MaryOfExeter

Print Tippler said:


> I just bred a dilute het rec red. It's only about 5 days old but adventurally you could compare.


Is it smokey? That's a big part in getting so much RR to show though.


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## MaryOfExeter

Yes, there is not white strip on the outter feather so it's smokey 


Ember is commonly found in Oriental Rollers. If you've ever seen the "buff" and "tuff" Oriental Roller varieties, there were trentons that looked just like that. Which kind of reminds me of this one too.


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## Print Tippler

MaryOfExeter said:


> Is it smokey? That's a big part in getting so much RR to show though.




I don't think it's smokey.. Its off a red mottle cock and a heavy splash silver something. Guess it wouldn't be the best to compare if it turned of grizzle. I didn't know smokey made more red come out


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## NZ Pigeon

I'm convinced its smokey now, I was doubtful as I thought I could see a strip in one pic. But no its smokey


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## Kastle Loft

Soooo, she's smokey, and NOT slate? I'm hearing two different things now.

Here's another look at her. And I do appreciate the input. It's not terribly important, but it's fun and it will help me learn this stuff as I breed her. Oh, and she is pretty young yet - a 2011 bird. Not sure of hatch date yet.


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## NZ Pigeon

Smokey is the gene that creates slate. Same dif really


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## Print Tippler

Homer people just call them slate, same thing. They just don't like any genetic names.


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## NZ Pigeon

The yellow round the neck shows up well in that photo, Looking at some of the embers online I would guess this is het rec red and not ember. Just my guess though. If you get rec reds of that pairing then you can be pretty certain thats whats causing the yellow neck


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## Kastle Loft

NZ Pigeon said:


> Smokey is the gene that creates slate. Same dif really


Aha. Gotcha. And odds are good she has a rr parent as the person i bought them from has a lot of those in the loft. 

So she is a silver check slate, or, blue check dilute smokey? Or all of the above hahaha. No, really, someone sum this up for me. 

I will be sure to update the thread when I get info on their parents. And certainly when they have babies I'll post some photos. They are just now pairing up.
Thx.
David


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## Print Tippler

Well it's a smokey silver check heterozygous for recessive yellow. Different people say different things. Silver in genetics term means dilute blue, silver in racer terms is an ash red bar. Racers call dilute blue dun, genetic term for dun is only dilute black(blue spread). They call smokey, slate. Recessive yellow is just yellow.


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## MaryOfExeter

You can call it slate or smokey, whichever you prefer. Both are correct. And yes, it's very likely that she's out of an RR or RY bird in which she'll be carrying it. Half of the offspring from this pair are likely to be RR. So if you get one, you'll know she's carrying it.


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## NZ Pigeon

Kastle Loft said:


> Aha. Gotcha. And odds are good she has a rr parent as the person i bought them from has a lot of those in the loft.
> 
> So she is a silver check slate, or, blue check dilute smokey? Or all of the above hahaha. No, really, someone sum this up for me.
> 
> I will be sure to update the thread when I get info on their parents. And certainly when they have babies I'll post some photos. They are just now pairing up.
> Thx.
> David


I like Blue check dilute smokey but thats just me, I like to stick to the genotype names.

But either is correct, If talking to racers they may think silver is a mealey ( red bar ) and then get confused when you call it slate as some racers I talk to think slate only applys to blues. Hence me liking to stick to genotypes, They are black and white.


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## Kastle Loft

NZ Pigeon said:


> I like Blue check dilute smokey but thats just me, I like to stick to the genotype names.
> 
> But either is correct, If talking to racers they may think silver is a mealey ( red bar ) and then get confused when you call it slate as some racers I talk to think slate only applys to blues. Hence me liking to stick to genotypes, They are black and white.


I'd like to start using the genotypes properly (hence all the questions). But i know if I contradict some of the flyers in my club ("no, that's not a silver, it's a red bar) they'll call me names behind my back (or to my face more likely) 

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me and my new blue check dilute dun silver smokey slate hetero recessive red or maybe yellow Trenton hen.


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## Print Tippler

It's not dun. Some people say silver dun but that would be the same as calling a blue bar a blue black bar. Also technically since the bird is dilute it is only hetero recessive yellow.


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## NZ Pigeon

Print Tippler said:


> It's not dun. Some people say silver dun but that would be the same as calling a blue bar a blue black bar. Also technically since the bird is dilute it is only hetero recessive yellow.


Dun is another phenotype name that confuses things. So is silver. A dun to me is a Blue Dilute Spread. 

Technically this bird is not het rec yellow at all, It is Blue, Check, Dilute, Smokey, Het Rec Red. Ofcourse if the Rec red showed it would be yellow from the dilute but rec yellow is another phenotype name. Rec Red Dilute is more correct when talking genotypes.


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## Print Tippler

Well I disagree. If you know who your talking to you don't have to say everything. If I talking to someone who knows genetics then I'm going to say silver bar or recessive yellow. Recessive yellow can only mean one thing dilute recessive red. The bird is dilute, everything about it is dilute. I prefer to use the proper accepted names for that. Thus making blue become silver and red to yellow. It's technically carrying dilute recessive red which is recessive yellow. This is able to be seen in the bird so it should be able to be called a smokey silver check het for ressesive yellow. That should be understood very easily for genetic people if it was someone who didn't know things I wouldn't stick to genotype name I would explain it so they can learn.


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## NZ Pigeon

Print Tippler said:


> It's not dun. Some people say silver dun but that would be the same as calling a blue bar a blue black bar. *Also technically since the bird is dilute it is only hetero recessive yellow*.





NZ Pigeon said:


> Dun is another phenotype name that confuses things. So is silver. A dun to me is a Blue Dilute Spread.
> 
> Technically this bird is not het rec yellow at all, It is Blue, Check, Dilute, Smokey, Het Rec Red. Ofcourse if the Rec red showed it would be yellow from the dilute but rec yellow is another phenotype name. *Rec Red Dilute *is more correct when talking genotypes.





Print Tippler said:


> Well I disagree. If you know who your talking to you don't have to say everything. If I talking to someone who knows genetics then I'm going to say silver bar or recessive yellow. Recessive yellow can only mean one thing dilute recessive red. The bird is dilute, everything about it is dilute. I prefer to use the proper accepted names for that. Thus making blue become silver and red to yellow. *It's technically carrying dilute recessive red* which is recessive yellow. This is able to be seen in the bird so it should be able to be called a smokey silver check het for ressesive yellow. That should be understood very easily for genetic people if it was someone who didn't know things I wouldn't stick to genotype name I would explain it so they can learn.


I'm not to sure how you can disagree

When talking technically about genotypes you stick to genes that have genetic symbols, There is no symbol for rec yellow

Its dilute rec red so the symbols are d for dilute and e for recessive red. No symbol for rec yellow. You can't say its carrying dilute anything, It is dilute its carrying rec red.

Nothing you are saying is wrong but remember Logan, The thread maker is wanting to learn genotypes.


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## Kastle Loft

Print Tippler said:


> It's not dun. Some people say silver dun but that would be the same as calling a blue bar a blue black bar. Also technically since the bird is dilute it is only hetero recessive yellow.


I was just being silly and calling her everything she could possibly be called. 

 Ron Huntley does indeed call the blue dilutes "silver dun" fwiw. 



> Dilute, when on the color brown, produces the color we call "Khaki". On blue, it produces the color known as silver dun, which appears brownish and is often confused with being the color brown. You have the color yellow when you combine either ash red or recessive red with dilute.


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## NZ Pigeon

gbhman said:


> The bars are black. In other countries it is referred to as blue with black bars. I will give three examples. Netherlands is Blauw zwart geband, Germany is blau mit schwarzen binden, and Poland is niebieskie z czarnymi pasami. To me calling it a silver dun, or a dun bar is fine as the dilution of black is called dun. It's of my opinion when someone says blue bar that it sounds more to the effect that the bars are blue, which they are not... they are black.


When talking genetics, Blue bar is wild type, Their base colour is blue and their pattern is bar, Noones saying the bars are not black, just that the bird is blue and it has bars.

Also dun is a name that should only apply to blue dilute spreads. Dun bar is not quite right as the bird is not dun. Its blue dilute with bars 
(silver bar) if you prefer


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## NZ Pigeon

Kastle Loft said:


> I was just being silly and calling her everything she could possibly be called.
> 
> Ron Huntley does indeed call the blue dilutes "silver dun" fwiw.


Lol I got the joke

Yes Ron does your right, When talking in those names there really is no right or wrong, Thats why I like using genetic symbols/genetic names to show the birds phenotype or genotype. Like I said earlier, Its a lot clearer.

If we want to get really technical this birds phenotype is 

Blue Check Dilute Smokey

Its Genotype is

Blue Check Dilute Smokey Het Rec red and het for anything else its hiding.


Also What you were saying about the racing guys talking behind your back. I got snarled at the other day for argueing that my BROWN thief is not a dun bar. I said its brown it did not have short down and its off a family of brown birds that have never had dilute. They insisted it was a dun bar.


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## Kastle Loft

I had a club mate trying to sex my red birds for me telling me that my red hen, mated to a blue cock, would throw all red hens or something like that. He basically had it backwards and I didn't even try to correct him because he was so sure.


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## NZ Pigeon

Blue cock to red hen will produce all red cocks, all carrying blue and all blue hens


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## MaryOfExeter

Actually blue black bar isn't so bad. Wildtype is blue/black, haha


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## NZ Pigeon

gbhman said:


> And what is the color of a "blue spread" as you look at it?? could it be black? so as you say when its the dilute its called dun right? are you trying to tell me the BLACK bars/checks themselves dont dilute to dun on a silver... they remain black?(if thats the case I must be blind from the hundreds of silvers I've raised over the years). I never said the bird is dun as a whole... I'm talking about the bars or checks. It would be silver base color with dun bars/checks.


Yes the dilute of black is dun.

No I am not trying to tell you that the black bars don't dilute to dun, What I am saying is that the birds colour is blue, And its pattern is Bar, Hence the name blue bar, People often think the name is saying the bars are blue, Its not, Its saying the bird is blue in colour and bar in pattern. 

You are not blind, The bars do dilute to dun, But the bird is a silver bird with bars hence the name silver bar. You don't need to say dun but if you want to call silvers, Silver with dun bars go ahead, Just make sure you keep it consistent and call blue bars, blue with black bars and ash reds, ash with red bars.


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## NZ Pigeon

MaryOfExeter said:


> Actually blue black bar isn't so bad. Wildtype is blue/black, haha


Your right, Its not so bad, I like to keep it simple and call the bird blue but nothing wrong with black aslong as you know who you are talking to won't assume you mean blue spread.


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## Kastle Loft

Got the peds today. According to the pedigrees, my RR cock's sire was a black opal and the dam is a red and white mottle.

My blue check dilute smokey hen's sire is gimple and the dam is bronze splash.

The breeder calls my hen a "yellow breasted dun check" and my cock is simply "red".

Think any of that will translate to anything to you guys??


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## MaryOfExeter

I was right? I was right! Gimple on one side, bronze on the other? Recipe for more bronze in the offspring.

Did you get these birds from the Oshabens?

I would call the hen a gimple silver check. But yellow breasted silver check is acceptable. There are other breeds that call that coloration the same thing.


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## Kastle Loft

Yeah, got them from Laurie O. Looks like there are some good distance racers in the family, but a few generations back. It might take a while to see what I can get out of these guys. A buddy of mine bought some as well and we are going to try and swap and share and try and get the best out of them.

I love the looks of the gimples. This will be fun to see what we get.


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## Kastle Loft

Here's an update. Babies just hatched today. I've never had babies with such little down and their skin color is much richer, deeper pink/red than my other babies.


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## MaryOfExeter

Looks like dad is split for dilute


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## Kastle Loft

MaryOfExeter said:


> Looks like dad is split for dilute


Soooooo, you mean to say the short down is an indicator of dilute? You mind re-explaining that?


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## Print Tippler

Kastle Loft said:


> Soooooo, you mean to say the short down is an indicator of dilute? You mind re-explaining that?


you got it. Not to much to it.

Heres an whole article on short down and down in general

http://mumtazticloft.com/a_LookingAtBabyPigeonsForInformation.asp


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## Kastle Loft

Well, I guess what I meant to ask was what makes you say the dad is split for dilute based on the two babies apparently being dilute? Could mama not pass that along on her own?


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## Print Tippler

Dilute is a sex linked mutation. I can not explain it as well as others but I will try. Genes goes to certain chromosomes. Most of the time there are two "slots" on the chromosome for the same gene. Sometimes there is only one. A cock can carry two genes for color but a hen only carry one color. It's also sex linked so hens always give there color genes only to cocks. Cocks will pass one of their two genes to an hen. This all goes for dilute also. It is a sex linked recessiece. Because of that cocks need both "slots" dilute in order for it two be dilute. Since hens only have one slot they are dilute when they only have one slot for it. So a cock which has no dilute genes when bred to a dilute hen all the young will not be dilute. The cocks will carry dilute but not so it because it recessive. Breeding that cock back to a no dilute hen the cock has a 50% chance of passing off his dilute gene to a hen making the hen dilute. The other 50% of the time he would pass his no dilute gene.

So in your situation your cock is carrying the dilute gene and the hen is dilute; she has one gene for it. She will always give the dilute gene to a cock and the cock may or may not give it to the hen. Cocks also pass the gene to fellow young cocks I believe. So you will get dilute and non dilute offsprings and the cocks will always have one gene for it atleast.

Probably someone can explain it better than that or correct me where I'm wrong but that is pretty much it I think. Might be able to lose more scientific names for things. Here's a link on breeding dilutes

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/diluteresults.html

General info on dilute here 

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/dilutepale.html

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/yellow.html


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## NZ Pigeon

Yeah I agree with Logan, Its hard to explain but basically for any sex linked recessive gene to show in the young the cock must be carrying the gene. So because you have some dilutes which are sex linked recessive we can be sure the cock bird carries the gene for dilute, If the hen was not dilute we could also be sure that those babies are hens but as she is dilute those babies can be either hens or cocks.


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## Kastle Loft

Ok I gotcha. I think I was confused by the sex linked AND recessive part. I was just thinking that she could pass a sex linked gene without the cocks help but since dilute is recessive then that's why he needs to carry it too.


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## Print Tippler

Yeah it can be confusing, I was confusing myself trying to explain it haha. It all lies in that hens only have one spot for the gene and cocks have two. So although it's recessive one dose will change a hen to a dilute.


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## NZ Pigeon

Kastle Loft said:


> Ok I gotcha. I think I was confused by the sex linked AND recessive part. I was just thinking that she could pass a sex linked gene without the cocks help but since dilute is recessive then that's why he needs to carry it too.


Remember a hen will never give anything that is sex linked to her hen offspring, That info comes frm the cock only. But all cockbird will always carry the mothers genes, Either hidden or showing depending on whether hee genetics are dominant or recessive


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## MaryOfExeter

When it comes to sex-linked genes, on hens what you see is what you get. Sex-linked genes are only carried on the X chromosome (technically Z in birds but X is more easy to identify with since that's what goes for mammals/humans). Hens have XY and cocks have XX. So with dilute for example, a cockbird has two places he can have the gene, and the hen only has one place. Being recessive, you need two copies of it for it to show....in cockbirds. You only have one option in hens so anything she has will show regardless of how dominant or recessive it is.

Cockbirds inherit one X from mom and one X from dad. Hens inherit their X from dad and their Y from mom. That's the only way it can work considering half your genes come from each parent  So, now it may be easier to see why if dad is carrying dilute hidden, it would only show physically in his daughters. It's a lot easier to see on a punnet square. Which I think I have one drawn up somewhere.


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## MaryOfExeter

Just in case you don't know how punnett squares work, mom's traits/chromosomes are on top and they are copied straight down. Dad's traits are on the side and carry straight across. Gives you a ratio of what you should expect in the offspring  Like I said, the Y chromosome doesn't contribute anything in this case SO nothing comes down from there (well, other than the Y itself to make a daughter).


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## Kastle Loft

Thought I would update this post with photos of three of this pair's babies.

The first baby was one of those dilutes with no down when it hatched.

The next round of babies had plenty of down and looked fairly normal as hatchlings (well, normal to what I usually have in my loft). 

Boy you just never know what color is going to come out of these Trentons. I'd love some help labeling these guys. I will make separate posts for each baby since I have a lot of photos.

Here's the first one that was born with no down. She's molting already so she doesn't look too great.


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## Kastle Loft

Here is the lighter colored baby from the second round. It looks dilute to me, but it had a full head of hair when it hatched.


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## Kastle Loft

And here is the darker of the two babies. I really like this color - it's very striking. Almost mahogany in color but you can also see two colors working on the wing shield.



















And here are the two nestmates together for comparison.


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## MaryOfExeter

Can you get a spread wing shot of the first (older) baby? And a tail shot of the younger lighter one? They are all smokey which is really letting that RR shine through. That's the mahogany color you're seeing.


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## Kastle Loft

So the darker one is RR smokey? Will the patchy color (kinda black and deep red) moult out differently? The color just seems a little irregular.

I'll get some more photos. You're looking for the white strip on the tail (or lack of)?


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## MaryOfExeter

No he's a blue check but carrying recessive red. The smokey helps the red tint from the RR show through  Usually presents itself as bronzing but these have a real nice red tint to the bronze. As for the tail, it looks like it doesn't have a tail bar? I dunno it just looks funky and wanted to see a good shot of it.


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## rudolph.est

Down doesn't lie! The first one, is definitely ditute, while the last two are not. If in doubt, look at the flights, dilute birds' flights are defintely lighter (browner/geryer) that the dark (black) flights of the non-dilutes. 

As Becky said, the recessive red is giving that red / mahogany tinge that you are seeing. And it is being helped by smokey (and by sooty aswell I think). I am certain of the smoky (again agreeing with Becky), due to the very light beaks, but am guessing at the sooty due to the middle bird looking like a blue bar with some sooty markings on the shield (and knowing that sooty is very common in homer RRs).

My split RR birds have never shown quite as much red cast to their color, but they are all dirty also, which might change the phenotype somewhat. 

I am fairly certain that all the red/bronze/mahogany will moult out on these birds, as can already be seen in last picture when you look at the shield of the T-pattern bird (though some bronze _might_ remain in the bar area). The dilute might show more yellow, since dilute brings out yellow even in non-RR split birds (especially in the neck and breast). If it is a hen, mating her back to her father will definitely give you the change to breed some dilute recessive reds (or yellows).

I've never met anyone who had adult split RR's that could be visually identified with any consistency or accuracy, maybe you will be the first!


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## Kastle Loft

haha it would be nice if they could be first at SOMETHING! Maybe they'll hold onto some of that color. I'll be sure to update with photos as they get older.

Here is the tail of the lighter colored younger one. I couldn't get a wing photo of the dilute (older) bird by myself. I need three hands!


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## MaryOfExeter

I'm wondering if that one may be indigo as well. The tail bar is awful light.


Rudolph, some of the bronze may end up staying on the birds. The thing about trentons is they are as unpredicatble as rollers. All kinds of crazy phenotypes. I have no idea why, but it happens.


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> I'm wondering if that one may be indigo as well. The tail bar is awful light.
> 
> 
> Rudolph, some of the bronze may end up staying on the birds. The thing about trentons is they are as unpredicatble as rollers. All kinds of crazy phenotypes. I have no idea why, but it happens.


I agree that the tail of that bird is wierdly coloured, and it does look rather indigo in the blue parts, but looking at the pictures of the parents, which one was indigo? The dilute hen definitely wasn't. I've never seen a RR indigo before either, would it be possible to identify those visually?

I also know that the recessive red lines in homers (the Trentons and Meulemans) do have rather interesting [and unexplained] genetics. I agree that the bronzing might stay (the pattern area might retain some bronze - which I believe is a separate gene and has nothing to do with RR other than being carried along because it improves the red). 

I have never seen a that red cast in a full grown bird, not even on a roller! It would be really cool if it did remain, but I doubt it - looking at the photos of the moulting youngster, I think I can see the shield feathers already looking like normal or dirty blue, and no longer having that red cast.


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