# Reduced, spread, and dilute confusion



## RodSD

I am trying to compare the differences of those terms and I am confused more than ever. The phenotype almost look the same to me. Can someone clarify and perhaps with good pictures.

Here is my scalped baby bird. What color is it?


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## jbangelfish

*Reduced is similar to dilute*

Spread is what true black pigeons are and their color is actually blue. Spread ash red can be lavender or messy brownish colors. Spread brown is a uniform brown color.

Reduced works like dilute, in that a reduced male with a normal female will produce all reduced hens and normal males that are split for reduced. Works the same as dilute. The color changes are quite different though.

Dilute black is dun. Dilute recessive red is recessive yellow. Dilute ash red is ash yellow. Dilute blue is silver. Dilute brown is khaki.

Your scalped baby could be reduced. Hard to say from the one picture. It might be a good idea to put some neosporin on his head. They usually recover from these things but he got a pretty good scalping.

If you go to Slobberknocker Lofts website, he has a lot of photos of all the above mentioned colors. I also have photos of them and need to work on getting them here to this site for the galleries.

Bill


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## bluecheck

1. reduced is a sex-linked recessive mutation; it's an allele of rubella.
2. Spread is a dominant allelic mutation
3. dilution is a sex-linked recessive mutation apparently close to where reduced is on the sex chromosome.

Now, having said that. Spread has nothing to do with either of the other two. As Bill mentioned, it's what makes "blue" black; etc. It's all with full pigment.

Reduced can be added to birds with Spread. Spread reduced birds usually have a bit of "fading" to their color. Reduced check birds have a pretty pastel pinkesh look to the check and bars.

Dilute spread birds are, as Bill noted, duns. 

Here's Ron Huntley's site links for Spread, etc.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/spread.html

Here's the page on reduced and rubella
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/reducedblu.html

Here's the page on dilute, pale, and emtreme dilute
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/yellow.html


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## RodSD

Thanks for the insights and the links. I am trying to read it now. I suppose that one must know the sex of the birds to know whether the bird is reduced or dilute.

It is the choice of words that throws me off. Reduced, dilute and spread sound so similar.


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## jbangelfish

*They are confusing at first*

But you get used to them and what they mean. They are simple terms, just unfamiliar, like learning a new language, except that you already know what the words mean. Just have to learn how to apply them to pigeons.

If you'd like to figure out what this pigeon is, just post more pictures and pics of mom and dad would help. A reduced bird could easily be of either sex, especially if mom is reduced and dad is split for it. This mating can make them in both male and female. Two reduced birds together produce all reduced young. It's a simple recessive gene.

Bill


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## bluecheck

Bill,
Reduced is a sex-linked recessive, not a simple recessive. Works just like dilution. So a reduced cock mated to a wild-type (non-reduced hen) will throw ALL reduced daughters and ALL cocks heterozgyous for reduced but phenotypically wild-type (non-reduced)


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## RodSD

Here are the parents.










Thanks!


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## Revolution Lofts

Just a guess but is the white one the hen?


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## jbangelfish

*You're right Frank*



bluecheck said:


> Bill,
> Reduced is a sex-linked recessive, not a simple recessive. Works just like dilution. So a reduced cock mated to a wild-type (non-reduced hen) will throw ALL reduced daughters and ALL cocks heterozgyous for reduced but phenotypically wild-type (non-reduced)


I managed to confuse myself and said it wrong. I already had said how it works earlier but managed to goof it up this time. I got hung up on the term simple and simply confused myself.

Bill


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## Michael J Buden

The white one looks like recessive red. ie reduced red.
The other is some form of grizzle. 
I suspect the yb is a "spread grizzle" something!


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## jbangelfish

*Dad is maybe dun grizzle*



RodSD said:


> Here are the parents.
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> Thanks!


Dun is the dilute form of black. He could be brown but it's hard to tell from the pic. Duns don't have tail bars, browns do, unless they are spread. Confusing? Alittle. The bird on the nest, I'm guessing is mom and she may be ash red or she may just have bronze.

The bird in the background of the first pic looks to be t pattern blue but again hard to say from the picture. The one that got scalped is probably not reduced but dilute and probably grizzle. It will probably get more white with it's first moult. If all this is true, dad is most likely a dilute bird and the light baby is a hen.

There could certainly be more to this as I'm having trouble figuring out the dark baby. If mom was ash red and dad is dun, young males should be ash reds and hens should all be dilute. The dark one is neither. What do you think Frank?

Bill


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## RodSD

Hey Guys,

Now as you can see I am confused with these birds. ( I find advance calculus and advance physics easier to understand). LOL!

The parent already had previous children. One is a female that looks like the mother (sitting). The other is a male that is white flight, grizzle. The baby on the background is white flight bird.

I also thought that the dad is a tort. It is puzzling to me for sure.

I even have another pair that confuses me as well. We will tackle that matter after we figured out this current puzzle.

I am guessing that the scalped bird is a female for being tame.


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## jbangelfish

*Could we see a better pic of dad?*

If we could see his wings and tail, it might be easier to sort things out. Tort is certainly a possibility for dad and the youngster or even both youngsters. It just comes with some grizzles, often has bronze but doesn't have to.

Mom is probably just light pied which has made for white flighted babies. I'm still not certain of her actual color. Does she have any more color than what we see in the pic?

The dark baby looks to have grizzle in the face and could be a tort with white flights. It could likely get more white (grizzling) with the moult.

Bill


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## RodSD

Hey Bill,
Thanks for the interest. I apologize before hand if I am wasting your time. But here is the picture of the dad. The mom has a black tail with one white.


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## jbangelfish

*I'd call dad a blue tort*



RodSD said:


> Hey Bill,
> Thanks for the interest. I apologize before hand if I am wasting your time. But here is the picture of the dad. The mom has a black tail with one white.


You're not wasting my time at all. I love this stuff.

From the new pic, I can see a blue tail and normal black tail bar. He has some light bronzing also. It looks to me like the first couple of flights are faded and due to moult as the ends are lighter than the other flight feathers. This is normal sun bleaching. He might be a blue check as he looks too light to be a t pattern blue. How this works into tort, I'm not sure but it appears to be what he is. Of course, grizzle as well.

Mom is alittle more of a mystery, since you say she has a black tail. She could be both pied and grizzle, even homozygous grizzle or stork marked. She also has bronze but it looks like you have alot of bronze in your birds, especially seeing the bird to the right of dad. He almost looks to have the pencil gene, which also brings out alot of bronze.

Back to the light colored baby. If it is dilute, reduced or brown, it will be a hen. It'll be easier to tell what it is after the moult but I'm sure it is going to be one of the three things mentioned above, along with grizzle. If mom turns out to be homozygous grizzle and dad is heterozygous grizzle (which he is) all babies will be grizzles, some het and some homozygous. The homozygous birds tend to be very light birds with dark wingtips and or tails. The pied factor can eliminate the dark tips to wings and tail.

A good picture of the baby's tail and wingtips would help. Sorry if I'm keeping you busy with the camera.

Bill


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## RodSD

Hey Bill,

Thanks again for your help. Here is a picture of that reduced or dilute bird.










What do you think? Do we have a reduced bird or dilute?


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## jbangelfish

*I don't think so*

I think it's brown. I have some of these too and they can be alittle confusing as they are lighter colored. It looks to me to be brown tort or brown grizzle, whichever you prefer to call it. This would come from dad and would make the baby a hen.

I have some photos of brown. I'll try to hunt them up and post them. I have brown in alot of different looking birds, from bar, check, mottle, tort etc. and it can be hard to tell just what you have at times. The color brown doesn't really look very brownish until you combine it with spread factor. I used to think they were silvers or duns (dilute blue or dilute black) but browns have a tail bar that is brownish gray, silvers have a black tail bar, duns don't have a tail bar as they are spread, like black. Hope this helps.

Bill


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## RodSD

Hey Bill,

Thank you very much! I was hoping that this will be a hen. I thought it was hen before and you have confirmed it. So it is brown (tort or grizzle). I am happy about that. I love grizzled bird. I have next challenge for you and others. LOL!

Thanks again!

rod


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