# Pigeon with possible PMV - need help



## draykie

Recently, I've taken a female pigeon in who shows symptoms of PMV (head twisting, disorientation, difficulty flying). She's been given food and water and is being kept in a big Rubbermaid tote until she can get better, if she can. Is there anything medicinal I should be giving her?


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## Skyeking

If it is PMV, they DO get better. We have some excellent thread/s on the subject posted by someone who is an expert in this disease.

With good supportive care they do well, but you need to make sure that is what your dealing with. Stress can debilitate them and cause symptoms to worsen.

Also, get all your birds vaccinated if you haven't yet.

Nuerological diseases respond very well to calcium, B complex and other herb/nutrition supplementation and even some homeopathic remedies. 

READ THIS:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12248.html


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## Jaye

This is in the Ferals section, so I assume she is a Feral, therefore vaccinations are a moot point .

Basically, you are doing correctly. One thing to keep in mind is there are a few other things which cause PMV-esque symptoms: she could have a concussion or be in shock from a collision or such....or it could be a bacterial infection which is effecting the neurological system.

If it is PMV or shock/concussion....then just keeping up supportive care is the ticket. Very importantly, oftentimes the pigeon becomes such that they cannot feed themselves. So it may well be that you will need to handfeed to keep her strength up. If an adult, I recommend the pea and corn-popping method...easy and provides hydration as well as nourishment. You really have to keep an eye on that. Because it isn't the illness/injury which kills the pigeon...it is the fact that they are incapable of functioning on their own, so they either starve or are predated.

Keep her warm and in a quiet place. If it becomes necessary to feed, do so. Looking at around 40-50 morsels/day probably divided into 3 or 4 feedings. 

Check in on her as often as you can...often they will have little 'fits' and end up on their backs or even laying on their own heads. Nothing to panic about...just create a little towel "doughnut" of padding around the pigeon so they are somewhat hemmed in to where they are resting.

Personally, I would start a course of antibiotic just in case it IS bacterial...but granted...others would consider this just guesswork (which it is) and unhelpfully medicating (which it might or might not be).

Best option is to take her to an avian vet for a bloodtest, of course.

Thanks for helping !


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## draykie

Hi again.

Sorry for the short message. I was in the middle of getting ready for work and just wanted to leave something before I'd gone.

I've taken in birds who were ailing before, but the last one I brought to our local avian vet got a recommendation of euthanization. The vets in the area don't care much for feral birds, especially pigeons.  The vitamins and such that the thread recommends; are those something that can be purchased without prescription in a regular drug store?

Her symptoms include star gazing, frequent head twisting, and impaired balance. The reason we took her in was because she fell off the banister on our balcony, tumbled to the floor, and wasn't able to get herself back up to fly away with her mate again. She was toweled and brought in to rest in a warm, quiet room where the only light is through the window. The only thing that confuses me is that she and her mate have been together while she's had these symptoms for a few weeks now, and yet he shows no signs of PMV. If this isn't PMV, but is instead head trauma/shock, will supportive care/vitamins/electrolytes be enough?

Thanks again.


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## Jaye

Generally folks will just start with that. Again...things may get worse before they start getting better. But basically food, warmth, and a secure place to rest is the best thing. If you wanna start an antibiotic, you could order some Amoxycillin from Jedd's or Foy's pigeon supply online (unless you have some human-grade antibiotics around). Other than that...not much else you can do. The supplements you have read about are usually OTC...and I believe the above pigeon supply places have some of those, too.
It is (sadly) amazing about how little vets can know (or care) about treating pigeons, isn't it ?


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## pdpbison

Hi Draykie,



Can you post some good, close-up, in-focus, images of some fresh poops?


Images of the Pigeon herself?


Is she eating on her own?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## draykie

Thanks for the replies.

The pigeon is eating on her own, though I can't really tell if she's been drinking or not too. She's a fairly good eater and was even while she was outside with her mate, who looks very lost without her.  Ultimately, I hope she can be rehabilitated to the point where she can go back to him, but I wonder if that'd even be possible with how much time the infection/whatever it is may take to run its course, if it does at all. Her poops aren't very frequent, but are generally mostly solid, white, and dark in the middle.

When I get home from work tonight, her tote box is going to be cleaned out, so I'll post some pictures of her and her poops then.


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## draykie

Another thing: she now seems to permanently have her head sideways, looking upward.


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## Skyeking

Make sure not to leave a large bowl of water for her to drink from when you are not there, as they can drown in it, it's happened.


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## Bella_F

I haven't seen any PMV in my local wild flock yet, but the symptoms you described sounds just like it. The only other `head twisting' disease I know of that is common is paratyphoid, but the head twisting is rare in Paratyphoid and the poops would be very bad, runny diarrhea. Also the bird would be emaciated. 

I've also seen `head twisting' happen in an egg-bound hen, but your hen would not have survived this long if it were the case.

When I've taken in Birds with Virus like symptoms, most vets and people here have always recommended worming them, to give them more physical resources to fight the illness. Something for ectoparasites is a good idea too. Some people feed garlic for this.

Good luck; it must be hard on you dividing the hen and her mate. I wonder if you could take him too? But I must admit i don't know if that is the right thing either.


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## draykie

I tried phoning a few drug/pet stores tonight to see if any of them sold amoxicillin without a prescription. They don't. Is there any other way I can get a hold of some, preferably in liquid form so I can put it in her water?

I read about the possibility of birds drowning in large water sources, but she only has a small dish of water. On the plus side, her head seems to be straightening out just a little, and she's still very alert if someone peeks in on her. She'll need to have a bath tomorrow, as her claws have some poop on them now from her walking in it and I can't imagine that's very good for her hygiene.

She's resting now, so I'll have to take and post those pictures tomorrow during her wash. Earlier today, she got her claws tangled in the towel we had lying in the tote, so she got rescued and the towel taken out. She hasn't had any violent fits, but she does seem to get very restless and walk around in tight circles for an hour or so every now and then. Particularly, she seems very alert when her mate comes to visit at the balcony across from her, as if she somehow knows he's there. She'll immediately straighten her posture and look up through the screen lids we have on top her tote, as if trying to find a way out.


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## draykie

Here are some pictures from her foray into bath-time and moving into a new, larger tote:

Poops:


















Her, in a towel before bath-time. She was not being held upside-down; this was how she had her head twisted:










And finally, after her big adventure. This is what she does when she's been let go from being toweled. She will stay like this for anywhere from 15-45 minutes. This time, it lasted about 20 minutes. After this, she will get up and resume her daily activities as normal:


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## draykie

And some more pics that didn't fit in the previous post:


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## draykie

Sorry for posting so much over and over, but I phoned a few more stores about amoxicillin and got nowhere. The only place I can apparently get some is at a human drug store with a prescription, so I'm thinking of heading to my doctor and trying to get an amoxicillin prescription for a bladder infection, since I've had these in the past and he knows this.

This may be my only option to get some quickly, which I want to do before her mate forgets her or takes another mate and she has no home for the winter. However, I seem to recall some members on the forums from Canada, particularly one who sent me a bunch of helpful meds for another sick feral I once took in. If my prescription idea fails, I may have to order from Foy's/Jedd's, but that might take too long.  Is there anyone who can send some extra antibiotics by mail to me?

Again, thanks for the help.


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## Dobato

You may have better luck with trying to find a med called Triple-Sulfa by API; http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=66, at a tropical fish store in your area. This med will treat for many of the same bacterial infections Amoxicillin will, including salmonella (paratyphoid), and will also treat for coccidiosis as well, and it is an easy med to mix up. If you find some, get a few 1cc syringes as well from the drug store (the kind without a needle attached) to administer the meds. I will help you with instructions.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## draykie

I phoned my local pet store and they do have Triple-Sulfa in great quantities. 

I'm going to be picking up the meds tomorrow. They come in packs of 10 tablets. If you could give me the instructions, that'd be great. Thanks a lot.


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## Bella_F

Dobato said:


> You may have better luck with trying to find a med called Triple-Sulfa by API; http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=66, at a tropical fish store in your area. This med will treat for many of the same bacterial infections Amoxicillin will, including salmonella (paratyphoid), and will also treat for coccidiosis as well, and it is an easy med to mix up. If you find some, get a few 1cc syringes as well from the drug store (the kind without a needle attached) to administer the meds. I will help you with instructions.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

I just checked and this is something I can get in Australia! I am going to buy some immediately, since I have absolutely zero options at the moment for treating bacterial infections....except maybe this. 

Would you mind please instructing me on how to use it too? I would be SO grateful for your help, if you don't mind?


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## pdpbison

Hi draykie,



Is she able to eat small whole Seeds by herself?


And, does her Crop seem to pass the Seeds alright and in a normal amount of time?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato

Hi Draykie and Bella_F,

Glad you were able to source the med, here are instructions for mixing up the Triple-Sulfa. There are a few companies that make a Triple-Sulfa, this is for API, but will work for others where the med is in a pill form and not powder in a foil pack, just make sure of the mg amounts match up, if you are not sure, just ask. You will need to grind up a pill into as fine a powder as you can before use, I use a shot-glass and the end of a small kitchen knife to do this when I have to grind up a pill. 

Each small, individual packet in the API box contains 1000mg of pure TS med, I want you open one of these packs and dump it on something like a small mirror or even a glossy magazine cover. Divide the little pile of Triple Sulfa (TS) evenly in half (500mg), use a credit card or a business card, then put other half back in the pack and put away.

I want you to get a shot-glass and add 10cc of pancake syrup to it, this will be 2 level teaspoons, scrape it all in with your finger (1 teaspoon = 5mL, use a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware teaspoon). Now with the half pack of the TS you have set aside (500mg), place this into the 10mL of pancake syrup and stir very well in, cover and let sit for 15 minutes, stir very well again and it will be ready for use. You now have a 5% TS suspension (50mg/mL) to dose with. 

You will want to give 0.10mg for each 100mg of body weight. If you are not able to weigh the bird a good starting dose for an adult bird would be 0.30cc/mL twice a day (this is to the third line on a 1cc syringe and is roughly 6 drops, where there are 2 drops for each 0.10cc). Make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med to give a bird each time you use it and keep it in the refrigerator between use. Just gently open the bird's mouth and place 1-2 drops at a time in the front of his mouth and allow him to tongue it down

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

Karyn


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## draykie

pdpbison:

She has quite an appetite. She has a bowl of sunflower seeds with some small bits of thawed corn in it. I put the corn there because I never saw her drink her water and wanted her to get some hydration, but she's since been seen drinking her water too (which has had a pinch of garlic mixed into it). So, yes, she's able to get seeds down fine and her crop doesn't ever seem overly full, so it would seem she's passing the seeds well. There's a lot of little poops in her tote, too.

Dobato:

Thanks for the instructions. Will butter-flavoured pancake syrup be okay to use?


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## Bella_F

Dear Karyn,
Thank you SO much for your help; using the pancake syrup is pure genius. Do you think this would work for worming as well (getting rid of that nasty taste they hate so much).?

Karyn, may I also ask, is this tetracycline or several meds combined? Do you happen to know what they are?

Thanks again for you help!


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## Dobato

Draykie, yes, I would think this would be fine for the small amounts involved, that a little bit of artificial flavor will not be a problem.

Bella_F, I don't know about genius, as many druggists use sugar based syrup to make suspension meds for children's use, so this is an at home way of doing this. This will not work for worms, only a number gram positive and negative bacteria, as well as coccidia, but now that you mention it I'll look into whether there is a fish med that could work as an effective de-wormer. This is not a tetracycline based med, but a mixture of 3 sulfonamides in combination to give broad coverage against a number of different pathogens.

Karyn


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## Bella_F

Dobato said:


> Draykie, yes, I would think this would be fine for the small amounts involved, that a little bit of artificial flavor will not be a problem.
> 
> Bella_F, I don't know about genius, as many druggists use sugar based syrup to make suspension meds for children's use, so this is an at home way of doing this. This will not work for worms, only a number gram positive and negative bacteria, as well as coccidia, but now that you mention it I'll look into whether there is a fish med that could work as an effective de-wormer. This is not a tetracycline based med, but a mixture of 3 sulfonamides in combination to give broad coverage against a number of different pathogens.
> 
> Karyn


Hi Karyn,

Sorry about not explaining myself properly- what I meant to ask is whether putting worm meds in the pancake syrup would work ok? I can get some worming meds for birds here, thankfully.


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## Dobato

Yes, it would work, but unlike antibiotics where there is usually a fair amount of leeway available, in terms of getting the dose a little off, with a number of de-wormers there just is not a lot of room for error. So if a suspension were to be made the measurements would have pretty precise and the bird should definitely be weighed to be accurate in dosing amounts. 

Also, depending on how the original med came, it may be best to an an extra step to make sure that the de-wormer well broken down so it make an extremely even suspension.

Karyn


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## draykie

So the Triple-Sulfa and syringe have been picked up, with a few differences that I hope are minor:

- the syringe is 2 tsp/10 ml, but I'm sure I can just measure it out using the ml directions
- the TS is in powder form, despite what the employee told me over the phone
- its active ingredients list 664 mg Sodium Sulfathiazole, 168 mg Sodium Sulfamethazine, and 168 mg Sodium Sulfacetamide per packet; considering this all adds up to 1000 mg of meds per packet, I'm guessing there's no big difference here either

The TS is API brand, too. Let's hope this helps her.


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## Dobato

Drakie, the syringe you got will be not good one to measure out the small amounts of TS suspension once mixed up to dose you bird orally with. The 0.30cc/mL dose needed is equal to a little less than 1/3 of each single mL line on the 10mL syringe, so you will just not be able to use this syringe to dose with (but you can use it to measure the syrup if you like). Almost any drug store will have some 1cc syringes (you need a 1cc syringe, nothing larger, no needle), also you should be able to walk into any vet's office and just buy a few there, as you will not need a prescription for them. In the meantime, if you have an eyedropper, 0.30mL is equal to about 6 drops, this is an approximation, so please still get the 1cc syringe(s) to be exact.

The Triple-Sulfa you have is the right one, just follow the instructions given earlier. The Triple-Sulfa will not be able to treat PPMV, if this is what your bird has, as this is a virus, but if it is paratyphoid (salmonellosis) it will be able to treat this and also give protection from a secondary bacterial infection developing in the case of PPMV.

Karyn


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## draykie

Having gotten a 1cc syringe from the vet, she's been given TS in the measurements you instructed and is now back to her daily routine: eating, clomping around, and fixing her feathers. Despite her head turning to rather gruesome angles during the treatment, she took the doses well.

If this med will not treat PMV, what will? Are we hoping for the TS to treat any bacterial infections related to the PMV, thus letting the PMV settle itself in better time?

One question I had, though; in earlier posts, I mentioned what the bird will do after she's put back into her tote from being toweled. She lies there in the position she's been set down, and lays her head on the ground for about 15-20 minutes before getting up and getting back to herself. What's up with this?

Thanks again.


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## Dobato

draykie said:


> Having gotten a 1cc syringe from the vet, she's been given TS in the measurements you instructed and is now back to her daily routine: eating, clomping around, and fixing her feathers. Despite her head turning to rather gruesome angles during the treatment, she took the doses well.
> 
> If this med will not treat PMV, what will? Are we hoping for the TS to treat any bacterial infections related to the PMV, thus letting the PMV settle itself in better time?
> 
> One question I had, though; in earlier posts, I mentioned what the bird will do after she's put back into her tote from being toweled. She lies there in the position she's been set down, and lays her head on the ground for about 15-20 minutes before getting up and getting back to herself. What's up with this?
> 
> Thanks again.


As a result of PPMV being a viral illness there is not a "real" treatment for the infection, other than time, care, warmth, food and water (supplementing the last two by hand when they can not do this for themselves in the worse cases of a debilitated condition brought on by this infection), but there has been a few anecdotal reports that calcium supplementation may be helpful in recovery.

The catatonic state you describe probably is a result of a state of sensory overload from the handling that takes a while to wear off, that's just a supposition, others may have their own thoughts on this.

Karyn


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## John_D

I have often had pigeons with PMV behave like statues for periods of time. In fact, if I've taken in a pigeon who is too easy to catch and it just stands, I start to wonder if it is yet another PMV case. 

Couple of people have said they believed calcium syrup given directly has helped. Vit B complex is also worth trying, as it is reputed to be useful with the human nervous system. Some vets, I believe, do have an injectable form of vit B, since sometimes birds or others do suffer from a B deficiency.


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## skyler95

John_D said:


> I have often had pigeons with PMV behave like statues for periods of time. In fact, if I've taken in a pigeon who is too easy to catch and it just stands, I start to wonder if it is yet another PMV case.
> 
> Couple of people have said they believed calcium syrup given directly has helped. Vit B complex is also worth trying, as it is reputed to be useful with the human nervous system. Some vets, I believe, do have an injectable form of vit B, since sometimes birds or others do suffer from a B deficiency.


The (apparent) PMV bird that I've had for 6 weeks seemed to respond to the vitamin B shots I was giving it but the rehabber who supplied me ran out and I'm trying to get more. In the interim, I'm giving the bird chopped up brewer's yeast tablets. When I first found the bird, I gave it Baytril (in case it was paratyphoid) but it didn't help. 

I can tell you that the bird appreciates quiet, warmth, a soft voice when you are cleaning its cage (no sudden moves) and a mirror. It also enjoys a cotton rope and alfalfa to play with as well as music (I have a radio playing during the day). The bird seems content in its little universe (my bathroom) and seems to know I'm trying to help it. But when startled, it will still do "the head" and when I pick it up and then put it down, it takes a few seconds to get its bearings. But it is eating and drinking and trying to get better. 

Good luck with your bird.


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## draykie

Symptom update:

The pidge gets back to her feet more quickly now after being let go from a handling. What used to take 20-40 minutes now takes only about 10.

She is still a pig, eating and pooping aplenty.

Her poops are just a tad watery now.

She has 2-3 'fits' a night, as I've taken to babysitting her by sleeping in her room overnight. Her 'fits' consist of running around (somewhat loudly) in tight circles with her head upside-down. Sometimes I let her run it out, other times I go lightly tap on her box, talk to her quietly, and it seems to stop her for a few hours. She will also have these 'fits' during the day, 7-10 times throughout the whole period.

When being held or in her tote, while she seems particularly relaxed (quiet surroundings, semi-dark, or getting neck scritches), one eye will close, while the other remains open. She will look upward with her closed eye and keep the open one downward. I've examined both her eyes for any sign of injury and come up with nothing.

In other news:

Can calcium syrup be bought as a human medication from most drug stores without need of a prescription? I don't want to bring the hen to a vet because the vets in my area are fairly anti-pigeon and are quick to suggest euthanasia over the smallest issues.

The bird's setup is somewhat similar to yours, skyler95. She is kept within reasonable range of a heater (on all day and night because it's a snowy winter wonderland outside) for warmth and the household's collective volume has been set down quite a few notches for her comfort, to nearly a dead silence when it's time for her to rest at night. When her box is being cleaned, one of us cleans it and one of us holds her in a pidgey-burrito-style towel wrap. At first, her heart beats very quickly and her head goes everywhere. I give her continuous, slow scritches on the back of her neck and her eyes gradually close, while her heart slows to a more comfortable rhythm, all the while until she's delivered back into her tote.

A question, though; how long does it usually take for a pigeon to forget its mate? I really want her to get better quickly. It's getting into the cold season for winter and I want her to return to her mate before he gets another hen or forgets her. The worst thing I can think of is to finally be able to release her, only for her mate to have forgotten her, thus costing her her home, and she'll be left without home or mate in the dead of winter. It turns out she had babies growing just before she had to be taken in by us and at least one is making rounds in the sky with its father during the day, accompanying him to feed on our balcony. Both her mate and baby seem perfectly healthy, without any signs of the contagious PMV she most likely has, and this really confuses me, but maybe it's just luck.


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## Jaye

Draykie...just FYI...I noted in my post back on page 1 that, if you are in N. America...Foy's or Jedd's Pigeon supply carries some antibiotics OTC (including Amoxycillin) which you can order online. Kinda moot since you got the other stuff, but they are a very good and convenient resource, FYI.

Her/his mate will likely still be awaiting his /her return for quite a while. It can be sweet, or bittersweet. I have nursed Pigeons for 6 weeks or so and then watched them return to their flock to find their Love again !!!

Don't worry, 1 parent is quite capable and loyal in raising the babies him/her self.


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## draykie

The pidge seems to be doing much better now. She now fights to get out of being held, runs away to try to avoid getting caught in a towel, and was even cooing today to call her mate over from outside. Somehow, roughly three blocks away, he seemed to hear her, came to the balcony, and looked in the window as if expecting to see her. He didn't, but she's never done that before today, so if anything, that's a good sign that she's at least very aware of her surroundings. 

Her eyes seem to close evenly now (both simultaneously), rather than one and not the other like before. She still has a few fits a night, but they seem to be lessening during the day. All in all, I have higher hopes for her now.


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## Dobato

Hi Draykie, thanks for the positive update on this little one, I hope things continue to improve. For additional calcium, you can just buy a small bottle of Caltrate with Vit-D (these will be 600mg) and give her 1/10 of the pill popped to the back of her throat every second day until it's all gone. Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## draykie

Hi all.

The pidge had a semi-rough day today. She had a lot of spinning fits during the day, while she had only one last night. Not too many poops today either, and a lot of her seeds have been thrown about the tote.

She still took her medicine well and does not lie down very long after being released from the towel anymore. She also fights fiercely to get out of her towel when being handled - that is, unless you give her a steady supply of neck scritching.


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## Dobato

I imagine there will some ups and downs in her recovery and not just a smooth return to her former self. If she is having a hard day with self feeding , you could always do some seed pop by hand to help he out while she is burritoed up in the towel before, or after, her meds.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

I think PPMV Pieons are especially sensitive to how they are being handled or held.


I just got one today ( found in my parking lot ) and, in five minutes, checking throat, vent, on and on, she was on a Towel on my Lap, me steadying her Head, and 'peck-peck-peck' with wangley curved pecking motions, and VERY happy to have some Seeds and some help for eating them.



Just be very sensitive to making sure you pick her up and handle her, in ways she will be comfortable with,

Left Hand slips under her feet, from behind and low, right Hand cupped over her Head softly, so she is then instantly standing in your palm and is in a normal pose, and is then steadied against your solar plexis just like that.



Have her on a Towel on your Lap, with her standing in the dimpled or trough area between your thighs, and facing right....your left Hand softly on her back and shoulders, right Hand softly cupped over her Head from above, Seed Bowl right under her Beak...and work with her in this way, to steady her and steady her Head for her to peck.

Do everything slowly and gently and always have her in a normal position for her, as you hold or carry her...to tilting!


You can also hold or carry them where you start off same as described, but, for a moment, the cupped over Head right Hand reaches a little more to hold them against your Solar Plexus by their shoulders, and, the Legs dangle free for a moment, where, the Left Hand then moves forward, and lightly brushes the dangley Legs straigt 'back' so the Legs are flat against their rear, and, the left Palm then cradles their Body, Thumb sort of curling up around their outside Wing.

They do not mind being tilted a little bit then while being held or carried, since they feel very steady and secure.


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## draykie

That does sound close to the method of how I've been holding her. I don't think she's uncomfortable so much as just not wanting to be held, though - but I won't pass on a good thing like that. Other pigeons I've taken in have been too sick to fight back when held and later died. She's definitely a lot stronger than they were so I have higher hopes for her recovery.


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## draykie

Hey all.

Got a hold of some calcium syrup, which John_D mentioned a page or so back. I understand I'm supposed to give it to her directly, but how much and how often?


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## draykie

Sorry for repeat-posting so much, but I want to get her started on the calcium with her meds as soon as I can. The syrup is 1000mg - how much should she be getting and how often?

Also, how much longer should I be giving her the Triple-Sulfa twice daily?

Thanks again.


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## Dobato

Draykie, need a bit more information on the syrup, 1000mg per how many mL? The Triple-Sulfa should run for 7-10 days.

Karyn


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## draykie

It says each 30ml (2 tbsp) of the syrup contains 1000mg of calcium, 200 mg phosphorus, and .10mcg of Vit D.


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## Dobato

Draykie, you can mix 1 1/2 tablespoons (750mg) of the syrup to 1 liter of water, shake well and serve as daily water for a week (of course, clean and change water every day, or if dirty, refill through the day).

Karyn


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## draykie

Thanks again. Her water's been calcium-ified now and she's already been into it. 

Got her meds for this morning and she'll get more of it this evening, even though she really doesn't seem to appreciate it much. She's getting much, much stronger lately.


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## draykie

A very quiet night for the pidge. Only one small 'fit'. She had quite a few during the day, though. She's taking a healthy amount of food and water in, still, and was talking again yesterday... coo, coo, coo.


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## pdpbison

Hi draykie, 

Can you describe these 'fits' for me, in as much detail as possible?


What are the poops looking like?


Go easy o n the Calcium suppliment, it can damage their Pancreas and Kidneys if over done, and, probably is not too hard to over do, either.

Lecithin might even be something good to try, I keep forgetting, but I had meant to be trying it for any PPMV ones, especially if in severe throws.


Salmonella can do some weird things also, as for 'fits' or 'spells' or flopping-thrashing stuff.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato

Phil, the dosing for the calcium this bird is on is right out of the deck reference for calcium supplementation for pigeons via water (lower end), there will be be about 23mg/oz, so she will not be getting a high dose. If it is by chance salmonella the Triple-Sulfa will treat this, and it is encouraging to hear she has made some good progress in the last number of days.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Okeydokey...sounds good!


----------



## draykie

Her fits consist of her turning around in tight circles, stomping very loudly as she does. They usually go on for about a minute before stopping, unless I get her attention first, at which point she'll also stop and look at me instead.

I attached a couple poop pictures on the first page of the thread. They haven't changed much since then.


----------



## mick

*pmv*

hi just a note on this, to be fair put it down. my loft got pmv in july watching birds die is not nice i had a 16 year old hen started with the twists if you watch they dont eat so the result is starvation the first signs are wet droppings i mean pure water for a week plus then the symptoms start stargazing break dancers as i saw it theres no cure its over within 3 weeks but the after effects nervous twitches etc im now pmv free average 4 month from the first date,it will pass this on through droppings water etc just watch what your doing/go to www.pippa.be/ask the vet hope this helps cheers mick uk
total loss to pmv 51


----------



## John_D

mick said:


> hi just a note on this, to be fair put it down. my loft got pmv in july watching birds die is not nice i had a 16 year old hen started with the twists if you watch they dont eat so the result is starvation the first signs are wet droppings i mean pure water for a week plus then the symptoms start stargazing break dancers as i saw it theres no cure its over within 3 weeks but the after effects nervous twitches etc im now pmv free average 4 month from the first date,it will pass this on through droppings water etc just watch what your doing/go to www.pippa.be/ask the vet hope this helps cheers mick uk
> total loss to pmv 51


Mick,

Putting sick birds down when they can be helped is not what this forum is about, so that kind of 'advice' is not appreciated here.

This is a rescued pigeon, not one in a loft, but if you've lost that many birds to PMV, then it sounds like you need to be more careful. If you have racing pigeons, then the responsible thing to do would have been to vaccinate them - It's a notifiable disease of racing pigeons in the UK. Isn't vaccination required by the RPRA? 

We have 30+ pigeons who were rescued due to PMV. We didn't watch any of them die. We gave them supportive care and hand-fed them when necessary, and watched them recover. They stop shedding virus after about 6 weeks from onset of symptoms. A few always have some neurological symptoms - or they can recur - but in a safe environment they will get on just fine.

BTW - that link needs checking.


----------



## pdpbison

draykie said:


> Her fits consist of her turning around in tight circles, stomping very loudly as she does. They usually go on for about a minute before stopping, unless I get her attention first, at which point she'll also stop and look at me instead.
> 
> I attached a couple poop pictures on the first page of the thread. They haven't changed much since then.




Hi draykie,



The 'Marching' in tight circles is something some PPMV Pigeons do for feeling bored or restless or frustrated. They may do it while having the illness, and, they may do it long after recovering from it when their recovery includes a neurological legacy.


It is not what I would call a 'fit'.

At least not in the sense of what that word usually means, which would be involentary convulsions like epilepsy or some other things can cause or do.



If you like, next time they are doing this, just have them on a Towel on your lap, and gently hold them and do some light Back Rubs Back MAssage, where the finger tip pressure goes from shoulders to Tail.


Even set a littler Seed Bowl under their Beak as they are on your Lap and 'peck' with them a little while also.

This will likely console them, as well as feel good.


They get bored or frustrated sometimes, same as anyone would under those conditions.



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## draykie

Hi all.

Again, as John said, this bird is not housed in a loft. I do not have any other birds. She's a feral and we've been taking care of her and her mate and many, many babies for about 2-3 years now in the outdoors. She only recently came down with this PMV-like spell and since she was barely able to fly, we caught her and took her in to try to help her get back to herself again. There is no danger of any other birds catching her illness and I am not going to have her put down after she's shown so many signs of getting better. If she cannot recover enough to return to her mate, I am going to try to have her moved to a friend of a friend, who owns a farm and houses many rescued animals there. We're not going to release her unless we're sure she's well enough to be on her own again. We also can't keep her; living in a no-pets complex, we run the risk of eviction for simply taking care of the birds on our balcony, let alone keeping one within our suite.

pdpbison:

That's actually relieving to hear. I was afraid the PMV was just persisting or getting worse with how often she does these marches sometimes. They usually happen at certain periods of the day, too; 3-4AM and 2-3PM. When it's 3-4AM, I don't want to disturb her, so I just talk to her from outside her tote until she settles down. When it's 2-3PM though, I may see about giving her a little massage to settle her down. She has no trouble falling asleep in her towel if given sufficient neck scritching in a nice, quiet environment... as long as that awful medicine syringe isn't anywhere near her.


----------



## pdpbison

These Massages really do seem to help the PPMV Bird and the PPMV survivor.



I have had quite a few who were in terrible shape on arrival or when found, who in a few months were doing so well you could not tell they had ever had it.


PPMV survivors, if released, can have what seem to be symptomatic relapses of the co-ordination or Motor Co-ordination or Neurological symptoms, and, in the Wild of course, not being able to fly safely, nor eat effectively, can be a lethal combination.

I suspect these relapses are an occurence which attend what is actually some other illness or infection, and, as it is cleared up, so too the relapse symptoms clear up.


So, if all goes well with her, and you do release her to her familiar grounds and so on, keep an Eye on her in the future, and, if she dis-appears, go look for her, as she could be down somewhere near and in need of some attantions again.


On the times or day or night of these circular 'Marching' events, yes! The times you mention are in fact the times I myself had noted with various ones I have had who would do that.

Curious, huh?

The 3:00 A.M.-ish particularly, was one I would note, since I was often trying to fall asleep, and, they'd start in, usally hopping up onto a Cardboard Box for the best accoustical emphasis, too!

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## draykie

That does sound a lot like the little girl here.  She can clomp around semi-quietly or very loudly. She chooses loudly at 4 and 5AM. However, we've put a soft car mat under her newspaper to muffle her little dances and it seems to have worked like a charm. It also seems, for some reason, to soothe her a little. She hasn't done much of her marching since; just a few walks and a lot of good, restful sleep.


----------



## pdpbison

Actually, Newspapers are not good...once even a little damp, they encourage and support many sort of Bacteria, Molds, etc.


Use a few layers of Paper Towels if her poops are messy or saturating, then just fold up and toss every day or two, or regular Towels if poops would shake off with a good 'flap' outside now and then, instead.


----------



## draykie

I thought of that too, but we clean her tote very often, at least 2-3 times a day. Her water and food get recycled like this too. This morning, while she was out getting her meds, she had made about 9-10 poops overnight. It's since all been cleaned for her.

At first, we had a towel in there with the pidge, but her claws got tangled in it and she tripped and got all messed up within it, so it's just paper and a mat underneath now.


----------



## pdpbison

Ahhhhhhhhh...okay...


You could try putting an old, clean Brick in there for her to perch on...good for keeping their Toe Nails from being too pointy or long, and, good for them also since they usually like to be perching on something.


They are 'Rock Doves', afterall...Lol...


----------



## draykie

I'll look for something brick-like to put in there for her, lacking any actual bricks.

She did some of her 'dances' today again. She was picked up and given a nice neck and back massage, which caused her to gradually fall asleep. She actually seemed fairly angry when put back in her tote, immediately doing another loud, fast dance. She got her meds again tonight and a little foot-wash, as there's a good deal of poop getting caked onto her feet. They're a bit better now, but she didn't seem to enjoy that very much.


----------



## pdpbison

Par for the course...


'Lap Towel Cave' ( with or without a little Seed Bowl, ) is one they may like also, it's warm, soothing, and they usually just day-dream or snooze.


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/lap-towell-cave/


Easy to do if one is watching TV, or at the Computer.


(Captions if you click to enlarge image )



Larger Towel on Lap...small Towel layed over and tucked in around the Bird...


----------



## draykie

Just tried the towel cave this morning after meds and while her tote was being cleaned. Didn't even need to hold her. I put her against my chest in her little cave and she dozed right off. 

Update on her condition:

Not much dancing last night. Just twice, around 4AM, one after the other. Stopped after some talking-to.

Her head still twists sideways and upside-down, particularly when she's trying to examine something/someone or is stressed (getting picked up, for example).


----------



## draykie

Not much to update.

She's been cooing a lot lately and has a lot more fight in her now. She's turned into a big cuddlebug who, when getting her tote cleaned this morning, fell asleep on me and refused to wake up even after being spoken to and poked lightly.

Unfortunately, her head is still messed up. She looks fine until she wants to take a look at someone or gets stressed, and then it goes sideways, and eventually upside-down. Before we took her in, she had these symptoms for 3-4 weeks. It's been about a week now that we've had her, I think. How long will it take for her head to get better?


----------



## Bella_F

draykie said:


> Not much to update.
> 
> She's been cooing a lot lately and has a lot more fight in her now. She's turned into a big cuddlebug who, when getting her tote cleaned this morning, fell asleep on me and refused to wake up even after being spoken to and poked lightly.
> 
> Unfortunately, her head is still messed up. She looks fine until she wants to take a look at someone or gets stressed, and then it goes sideways, and eventually upside-down. Before we took her in, she had these symptoms for 3-4 weeks. It's been about a week now that we've had her, I think. How long will it take for her head to get better?


Thanks for these updates, Draykie! I am finding them very encouraging and inspiring. 

I really love Phil's `Towel cave' idea too, and I will try it out today. The hen in my care is still very spooked about handling and she fights me a lot. I am worried about aspirating her, so much so that I have put her meds in her water today instead of trying to administer by hand. I am worried that this will not be as good as an oral dose though I'll se if I can her to relax with the Towel cave.

Thanks again Draykie, and well done ! Its great to hear of these improvements!


----------



## draykie

The pidge's rounds of calcium and TS are now over, and while she shows improvement, her head still twists about, goes upside-down, and is just generally out of whack as it has been. She also still spins about in her tote, though much less at night now than before.

She's now getting small amounts of Gatorade in her water everyday.


----------



## draykie

Bad news. Unfortunately, it seems that the pidge's mate has found a new lady friend already, leaving our patient pidge out in the cold.  I'll have to find someone trustworthy to move her to or something when/if she gets better.

With her head seeming like the only thing still wrong with her, what should I be doing for her now that her meds are over, besides constant supportive care?


----------



## pdpbison

Hi draykie,



I have been very encouraged by the improvements I have seen in the various severely twisting and up-side-down Head PPMV ones with whom I have been doing the Back, Shoulder and lower Neck 'massages'.


This seems to help enormously with those currently afflicted with the PPMV in the neurologic-associated form, as well as with old PPMV survivors who retain the legacy of remaining twisty or upsidedown.


I got a little cheapie Video/Audio Camera to make some Videos of 'How To', but, the poor quality and inability of the Camera to deal with movement, prevents it from being a viable means.


Bear with me, I will be getting a better outfit soon, and, I can then make and post some Videos on what I am doing in this regard.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato

Draykie, it may take some time yet for further resolution of her symptoms, just continue doing what you are doing and give her some time still.

Karyn


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## draykie

Lots of running around today, along with spreading wings and cooing. When the flock passes overhead, she gets very active, as well as when pigeons come to the balcony. She made a great mess of her tote today, throwing her paper up against the wall, then pulling it around for no reason except, it seems, to play with it.


----------



## pdpbison

Well, that sounds good...energy 'up' is a good sign.


How are those poops looking?

How are they doing as far as being sleepy when held?


----------



## draykie

Poops are still about the same as they were since day one. Mostly small, wet when fresh, always with a predominant green colouring, mixed with a bit of white and black.

When being held, it seems to depend on her mood. Sometimes she'll eventually calm down and seem very content to just be petted along her head, neck, and back, and will go to sleep in my hands. Other times, she seems somewhat agitated, her head will dart everywhere - upside-down, right-side-up, sideways - and she will be trying to get out of her towel. This, she tends to calm down from eventually, but it's also about the time I usually decide to put her back in her tote again. Another time I'll put her back is when she shows signs of beginning to overheat in her towel. First, her beak will start to part. Then, she starts panting lightly. I figured she'd be uncomfortable like that, and when she gets put back in after this, she usually goes to splash water on herself and take drinks.


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## pdpbison

Hi draykie,



Okay...


All sounds familiar.

The PPMV ones can be such wacky charmers in their own way. 


Are you providing some supplimental Vitamins? B-Complex particularly?


Lethicthin I htink would be good to consider also.

I got some recently for trying for various PPMV ones, and I keep forgetting to start them on it, but, it might be a good one for them.


Direct outdoor Sunshine is nice for them also, assuiming a calm and Sunny day...if they can of course be in a Cage, elevated, and, safe from any threats of dogs, cats, kids, hawks, etc...


----------



## draykie

It's cold and full of snow outside. Being in the Canadian prairies, our late spring is like the dead of winter. We're also on the highest floor of an apartment.

For a little while, she was getting calcium with vit D in her water, but that has since ended and been replaced with small doses of Gatorade in her water for electrolytes. Where can I get Lethiwhat'sit and how is it applied to the bird?


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## pdpbison

You can get Lethicin granules at any Health Food Store, very inexpensive...good for Birds and People and anyone else.

Bird might peck and eat the Ganules just as that, or, sprinkle on their lightly 'glistened' with Olive Oil Seeds.


Purple Dulce Powder would also be good to get and to sprinkle so it adheres the same way, by very lightly 'glistening' the Seeds with some fresh, sweet, good tasting Oliver Oil.


Olive Oil is very good for them in itself.


Powdered Garlic, or, fresh Minced fine Garic, also very good, and, he/she may just peck and eat the fresh minced fine Garlic too.


Finely minced Cilantro, also very good for them, they mayt peck it and eat it directly if a little pile is set next to their Seeds.


One experiment to try then, is to set a little pile of fresh, raw, finely minced Garlic, and, Cilantro, and one of Lecithin, next to her Seeds, and, see if she goes for the Gusto on any of them.


Powdered Brewer's Yeast ( not Baking Yeast ) is also very good for them, and, a light sprinkling adheres readily to the 'glistened'
Seeds...


----------



## draykie

For a little while, she was getting a small bit of minced garlic in her daily water. Since she's getting the Gatorade now, we've phased that out, but trying the garlic with her food is something that I'll give a shot. I'm not sure if she'll go for it though; she's too smart for her own good, and very picky to boot, throwing anything she doesn't like or recognize right out of her food dish when it's lunch time. 

Unfortunately, I can't think of any health food stores in the area, but would a drug store carry something like Lecithin?


----------



## pdpbison

Health Food stores often carry things in bulk - in this case, Lecithin Granules, Purple Dulce, Brewer's Yeast, and so on, would be very inexpensive.

If you buy these sorts of things in Capsules, in Bottles, at Drug Stores, it will be, ten or fifteen or twenty times the cost.


----------



## draykie

Oops, I was mistaken. We do have health food stores in the area. I'll see about calling them up over the weekend to find out if they stock any of that stuff.

I'm going to start coating her seeds in extra virgin olive oil just to give her a little boost, even though we don't have any of the good stuff for her yet.


----------



## pdpbison

Just a small amount of Olive Oiul onto the Seeds, then stirr them up well. Does not take much to 'glisten' them nicely ( and too much is ughy sodden gooey no fun).

Only make up for that day, as exposure to Air will cause the Olive Oil to go rencid very soon, of course.


----------



## draykie

She's developed a sudden obsession with charcoal and oyster shell shards that we've lately been putting with her food. The obsession is to the point where she works at it for an hour or more, trying to get every little piece.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi draykie,



See if you can get her to eat some finely cut up Cilantro...cut with scissors into teeny bite-sized bits...if she can not peck it effectively, try hand feeding it.

Maybe say, most of a Teaspoon worth a day.


Chlorphyl and Vitamin A and Magnesium are important for Calcium assimilations and Muscle and Nerve function.

PPMV Birds I imagine have higher than usual Calcium/Magnesium requirements from their Muscle tensions and Nerve issues, or other factors as well.


Semit Dried 'Goji Berries' also would be very good for her, and may b e cut with scissors into halves or thired and hand fed...say, like a Teaspoon worth or so a day. Lots of good sntioxidants and Vitamines in those.



I sent off for a supposedly decent-enough Camera now, for making little Videos with Audio...so, soon as it gets here I will see about making some How-To PPMV Back and Shoulder Massage Videos and posting them to you tube or whatever.


Phil
lv


----------



## John_D

Draykie,

Just keep it simple. 

Pigeons with PMV can retain the head turning, lack full flight ability, or zonk out and be in what appears to be a sudden deep sleep, indefinitely. This despite the actual virus having run its course by 6 weeks from onset of first symptoms. A handful of our 30+ PMV pigeons have some obvious signs of having had the virus but they can feed and drink OK, despite the 'contortions'. 

The head turning has also re-occurred with a very few of ours, even after several years, but the birds are not infectious, and maintain themselves well..

Calcium supplement has been reported by a couple of people as having a helpful effect on some cases (but not others), but as far as I'm aware there's no scientific basis for it having any effect upon the actual virus. If a pigeon was. as well as having PMV, suffering a calcium deficiency, then it would help with that. It is also necessary for a pigeon which does not get a reasonable degree of unfiltered sunlight (or bright daylight). My indoor birds get a liquid Calcium + D3 supplement about once a week.

Vitamin B (particularly B1 and B2) are necessary for a healthy nervous system, but supplementary B will not 'cure' anything except the results of a vit B deficiency. It won't undo lesions in the brain caused by a virus.

I half expect any rescued feral to be deficient in some vitamins at least, unless they've been fortunate enough to have been provided with a very healthy diet.

Garlic is reputed to be beneficial, and a garlic oil can be mixed with food, or a garlic capsule from a pigeon supply store given directly now and then.

Apple Cider Vinegar is widely recognized as halping to create and maintain a gut which is hostile to potentially harmful bacteria, such as Salmonella, and aids digestion.

A good purpose mixed pigeon grit with minerals and trace elements will help provide those essentials which may not be contained in their daily food, although a real pigeon mix provides most of the required vitamins.

The elixirs, supplements, and fad-of-the-moment stuff that some people shovel down are not going to provide anything for a pigeon that the above won't. Even for people, none of it is worth a cent unless their normal diet and lifestyle is a healthy one. Unfortunately, I guess many folks latch onto anything that seems like a quick fix with no effort involved, be it for them or their pigeons


----------



## pdpbison

Unfortunately, Calcium Suppliments are usually unassimilable.

Diet which includes the elements necessary for proper Calcium related assimilations, are more important then a direct Calcium Suppliment would be without them, as far as having a better and more healthy outcome.


+


----------



## John_D

The liquid (syrup) form of a calcium plus vitamin D3 supplement is designed to be readily absorbed into the system. Normally, such calcium as is stored in the body is moved from the intestines through the circulatory system by D3 produced through the action of ultraviolet in the form of sunlight. In low light days of winter (where applicable), or for an inside bird, there may be insufficient D3 produced. In some birds there may be a deficiency of calcium itself.

A pigeon feed with a high percentage of barley may supplement D3. Indeed, small quantities of cod liver oil given as you suggest, (maybe a couple of times a week) can also help. A mineral grit for pigeons can provide calcium, but not all our feral rescues take to it very readily. My balcony pigeons evidently don't even recognize it ~ it just goes ignored, and they scoff gravel instead 

The provision of a purpose mixed supplement such as Calcivite or Gem calcium Syrup, preferably dosed individually, will give both calcium and magnesium (needed along with calcium) and the D3 required to process it. We've found it invaluable for Collared Doves, having had many of fledging age who cannot walk or sometimes even stand for long, since calcium deficiency and metabolic bone disease seems to be quite prevalent. Also has been useful for squeakers who suffer from weakness in the legs.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi John, all, 


Black Cherry Juice is very good for Calcium deficient or Baby Sonbgbirds or Corvids and so on, as is any sources of Chlorophyl...or ideally both.

Prolly would work well for Columbiforms also.

Plenty of Calcium in fresh Greens and many small Fruits. What is usually lacking, when these are not present in the diet, are their orders of molecules/elements for complimenting/equipping the Calcium for assimilation mechanisms.


What I had in mind when refering to Calcium Supliments, is that most of the people ones are pretty well worthless, even if some proprietary 'Syrups' may indeed be very good.


Omnivor Species of course eat many Insects ( when available ) whose Stomachs and Intestines are filled with Chlorophyl and or also Fruit and tender Leave related materials, as well as the Insects often eating small or parts of larger Fruits or fruiting bodys and so on. As well as those Birds may and do feed on those Botanicals directly.

Wild Doves and Pigeons will likewise graze on small fruiting Bodys of various low Plants or Shrubs, as well as seeking out and grazing shoots and tender Leaves of various palitible Plants, or will when savvy, and, when rearing young, the Babys/Youngsters get these then...and, of course, those elements tend to be lacking in some regions, or in most domestic conditions.


So...



Phil
Lv


----------



## Sevenof14

*Re: Pmv*



Trees Gray said:


> Make sure not to leave a large bowl of water for her to drink from when you are not there, as they can drown in it, it's happened.


I lost "Twitch" and "Shakes" to a puddle this summer, so this is a very real danger.


----------



## draykie

Hey all.

Little birdy's still doing great, save for the head-twisting. I'm still looking for a place carrying any of the medicines you guys are suggesting and will keep you updated.

Luckily, she is obsessed with the calcium-enriched grit we bought her the other day. We give her a mixture of charcoal and oyster shells, which she can't seem to get enough of, though we're trying to wean her off so she'll eat more of her food. The balcony birds have also taken a sudden liking to the grit, where before, they totally ignored it.


----------



## pdpbison

A Teaspoon or so of Grit a couple times a week ought to be plenty...they can over do it sometimes, when craving something.

Vitamins A, D, B ( complex ) and even C, Chlorophyl also, as light suppliments or via foods rich in them ( get an Ouce of fresh Wheat Grass Juice at a Health Food Store, and bring it home fast as possible for him or her to drink ) , would be good, and would likely satisfy much of what he or she is seeking in over-doing the Grit.

Fresh Juices, such as Celery, Carrot, Parsely, Apple, or combinations of these would be excellent for any Pigeon, and e4specially so for any PPMV Pigeon.


----------



## Dobato

draykie said:


> Hey all.
> 
> Little birdy's still doing great, save for the head-twisting. I'm still looking for a place carrying any of the medicines you guys are suggesting and will keep you updated.
> 
> Luckily, she is obsessed with the calcium-enriched grit we bought her the other day. We give her a mixture of charcoal and oyster shells, which she can't seem to get enough of, though we're trying to wean her off so she'll eat more of her food. The balcony birds have also taken a sudden liking to the grit, where before, they totally ignored it.


Draykie, as Phil says, be careful with the grit, I would remove it and not give access now for a few weeks, they can over do it and get themselves all compacted inside.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Exactly...ends up like wet Concrete in their innards if they over do it too much...and can take a LONG time to clear out! To where they can eat or be fed again.


He is craving something, which is not necessarily present in the Grit, but, which his instinct or intuition associates with some of the Grit components...hence, my guess, to satisfy him and his cravings, the various foods and or also Vitamins I had outlined.


----------



## draykie

She has been getting pure, unsweetened apple juice for her drinking water every second day or so now. Her head is, unfortunately, still twisty. She's had a few cute moments lately, though:

When laying against my chest while she was being held one day, she spotted a button and eyed it up for a few long moments before attacking, pecking and biting at it until losing interest and going back to sleep.

When having her footwash in the bathroom sink yesterday, the faucet was dripping just slightly. For a little while, she busied herself investigating the shiny head of the faucet and pecking at it, before putting her beak directly under its dripping and taking a long, satisfying drink. I guess getting your feet washed is pretty hard work. 

We're looking into getting a pet playpen for her so she has more room to walk around and stretch out her wings. It's around 36x36x24, which is considerably larger than the tote she's inhabiting right now.


----------



## pdpbison

Very sweet...


They can be the sweetest and wackiest little Creatures sometimes.


----------



## draykie

She is incredibly sweet.

I had an episode with her earlier in the day yesterday, where I was reaching into her tote to give her neck scratches and back pettings. As always, she was perfectly content to bask in this, until the angle became very awkward for me to maintain, and so I tried to gently nudge her into taking a better angle for me to pet her at. She resisted, and even made herself more awkward to pet. I tapped her butt a little, but to no avail. So, I went to pick her up and turn her around, to which she got very ill-tempered at me, cooing and biting at my fingers... then cuddling back down again when her petting resumed. She may have been a princess in a past life.


----------



## draykie

_Yawn... such a hard day of showering, sleeping, and massages...









Hmm.. what? Who's that pretty bird on the screen?









Hey good lookin'!









G'night everybody!_


----------



## draykie

Just another update without much news (no news can be good news, right?). The bird's grown quite fond of us, it seems. She's very eager to hunker down into her towel cave and rest when taken out of her tote now and enjoys her in-home showers. She's eating a more varied diet now, with everything from a mix of wild bird seed to sunflower to red milo and orange lentils with gusto. She gets a cycling of regular water, garlic water, Gatorade water, and pure apple juice throughout the week on a random schedule and has yet to complain about the room service or the music she listens to when no one's home.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi drakie,


That sounds very nice indeed...


I got a Video Camera finally, but, still lack a USB Cord to connect it to the Computer, and, I have been so busy every day, I keep forgetting to get one...


Soon...I can maybe do some little 'How To' Videos for the Back Massage stuff.

It has really helped the various PPMV Twisties I get in.


Phil
Lv


----------



## draykie

Hey all.

Bird's still doing as well as she ever was. She even pooped on me today. Her 'house' has been upgraded yet again and she now has much more room to flap her wings around as she so enjoys doing and run about.

Unfortunately, her head is still twisting everywhere when she is alerted to something and her balance still leaves something to be desired, as she tends to topple over sometimes while walking about or after being put back in her tote. We have been taking care of her for over a month now, and while we've really enjoyed our time with the darling little girl, she was also showing PMV symptoms 2-3 weeks before even arriving in our care. Will this spunky diva ever get better?


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## pdpbison

I have had quite a few very twisty PPMV Pigeons, and, nearly all pf them got better to one degree or other, as far as having any Motor-Co-ordination appearing issues.

Many recovered so well you can not tell they had ever had it...others, merely have occasional light hints...some, still twist or act odd if stresses, or walk like 'Fred Munster', but, most of those fly very well in spite of it, have Mates, and, are very happy.


Back and Shoulder Massages, good diet, occasional direct outdoor Sunshine, and, time...seem to really be the best combination as far as I have seen.

Once I started the Massages, it was all a whole new Ball Game as far as h ow well they did from there on.


I wish I would have thought of it and gotten onto doing it years ago...Lord knows, I tried all sorts of diet and suppliment things, which sometimes helped somewhat, but, nothing helped like the Back and Shoulder and Neck and Head Massages.

I got a Camera finally to make Videos, but i have been really busy and though I have tried off and on to figure out how to use it, I have not got it down yet.


Phil
Lv


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## draykie

Hey all. It was photo shoot day today. Here are two showing the little lady in her full glory:









Hello? Get my best side please!









Good morning!


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## Jaye

She's a cutie !

The meds should be there today or tom'w. It could be Salmonella...in which case, start her on the Amoxycillin. It cannot hurt.

I had the same instance...I still do, actually...with a patient here. My GF found her, near death and initially I thought it to be canker so treated her for that. She improved and I was ready to start the Soft Release regimen, when it became clear that she was exhibiting PMV-esque symptoms.

So, I kept her around for the requisite 4 weeks, keeping up supportive care. But things didn't improve...they actually slowly became worse ! Stragazing, twisted head, taking off and turning 180 degrees and crashing into the enarest object.

After 5 weeks I figured, what the heck...and started her on Amoxycillin.

2 weeks later she is still here.... and after about 5 days into the Amoxy (I gave a 10-day course of the antibiotic), her faculties showed improvement. She is looking pretty good now, capable of short flights and hitting her intentional landing areas. She still turns on her initial takeoff but correct her course almost immediately. She no longer flings food, she hits her mark with each peck, and her head is now held erect with neck extended....

_*Now...was it the Amoxycillin knocking out the Salmonella ? Or was it just the fact that her virus took an extra 3 weeks to shed ?????
*_
We will never really know, I suppose. But...just wanted to share that experience with you, because it seems to be a similar situation.


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## cubanlofts

Dobato said:


> You may have better luck with trying to find a med called Triple-Sulfa by API; http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=66, at a tropical fish store in your area. This med will treat for many of the same bacterial infections Amoxicillin will, including salmonella (paratyphoid), and will also treat for coccidiosis as well, and it is an easy med to mix up. If you find some, get a few 1cc syringes as well from the drug store (the kind without a needle attached) to administer the meds. I will help you with instructions.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Karyn


is 3cc per pound, according to my vet


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## cubanlofts

use triple sulfa is an api product , actually sold in petsmart for fish, is call triple sulfa, them use a probiotic after that.


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## cubanlofts

cubanlofts said:


> is 3cc per pound, according to my vet


u can put 2 of the packages on a galoon of water, there are 10 packages in a box, it cost 14,95 at petsmart, buy 2 packages, 2 per day on a gallon of water, that will be ten days of triple sulfa, that will doit for sure, it only really requires one package per gallon, but i treat themk a littlemore aggressive, sulfa is not as destructive as baytril


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