# Young birds Dying.



## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

I am loosing over 50 percent of my young pigeons to a disease.

All the adults are healthy... lay eggs and raise squabs with no problems. 

Young birds leave the nest and get weaned.. then independent... still no problems.

But a couple months later some of these young birds will suddenly get ill and die. This has been happening for about one year now!!!!!

The only symptoms are that the bird suddenly becomes lethargic and stops eating and drinking.

Once I see a bird like that I know it will be dead the next day or in a few days time.

The birds seem in perfect health... no problems with poops or breathing.. not fluffed up and not sleeping. They seem bright eyed and alert and good body and feather condition. Then they will just stop eating and quickly waste away and have no energy.. too weak to even fly.. then die.

If one is sitting on the perch.. just me picking it up can made it die in my hands in seconds.. when only one or two days ago it was lively and fit.. flying about.

This is very upsetting for me.

I have only had 2 birds recover from this sickness.. both without any help from me. I must have lost over 30 youngsters to this disease. 

I have tried treating them with anti biotic for e coli infections, and also a broad spectrum anti biotic too.. and also isolating a sick bird and keeping it warm.. force feeding... etc.. but this had no effect.

The coop has been cleaned out many times and its always very clean with a deep layer of dry sand on the bottom. I sieve the sand and remove poops each day.. and scrape off the perches. 

They are fed 2 X a day in a special feeder so no seed get poop on it... and the water is changed 2 times a day and has apple cider vinegar in it several times a week. 

They get grit, mixed pigeon seed, chickens layer pellets... and are free range for several hours each afternoon.

I have taken a few sick birds to the vet... but it just ended up costing me a great deal of money and the birds still died. 

I have introduced new adult birds from a friends loft a few months ago.. and these did not get sick.

Any experienced pigeon fanciers have any advise about this?

I have stopped all breeding again now as I can't stand loosing any more birds.. they are fancy breeds and pets.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Almost sounds like an encephalitis, depressing vital brain function rapidly. Obviously, the older birds are immune (and are possibly carriers) and the young ones being affected are running out of the natural immunity that's conveyed through the mothers literally from the production of the actual eggs. At about the time you're talking about, their immune system has to switch over from the temporary immune system to their own literal active system--that's a bad time for everyone, but obviously the worse if there's a "refractory" chronic infection in your loft or something else being carried in my mosquitoes or such...

Which exact antibiotics, how treated, and did you get any actual printed necropsy reports?

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Sorry to hear about your losses.

At this point it would be best to get a necropsy done on a few of the dead birds. Salmonella, E coli comes to mind when reading your post along with a possible host of secondary infections.

There are so many things that need to be addressed, things that may or may not matter or are compounding the health issues.

What do you mean by free ranging? Are they free flying or eating off of the ground somewhere?

Where are you getting the sand for the bottom of the coop, and is this an open aviary type coop or enclosed with 4 walls? 

Are there any openings where rats/roaches or other creatures can enter, openings larger then 1/4 to 1/2 inch?

The new birds that you introduced to your coop that did not get sick, how old are they and had they been inoculated prior to entering your coop, which inoculations? *


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

When letargy precedes other symptoms, is usually something bacterial. When I see a letargic bird now I give him / her immedietaly a Lincomycin- Spectinomycin injection. I lost a lot of birds for not doing so.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with Skyeking about getting a necropsy. Chloe had circovirus which attacks primarily young birds a few months old. Or you can just ask to send tissue to test for this or get a blood test on a young bird. It attacks the immune system and is almost always fatal. Just suggesting this because we had never heard of it and had no idea why no matter what treatment the vet did, she would get worse. It is contagious to other pigeons. She had staph, malaria, coccidiosis, and aspergillosis among other things because she had no immune system left. She only lasted a short while once the circovirus took over. She came from a breeder who let his birds out a lot with ferals and chickens and obviously they picked up circovirus which surfaced in our area a couple of years ago. Hope you find out what is going on with your youngsters.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

Thank you all so much for your quick responses. 

I have looked up the symptoms or pigeon encephalitis.. but my birds do not get head shakes or loose droppings... however, there are mosquitoes about all the time here.

I live in Northern Thailand. Sadly there are no avian vets here... they all just treat cats and dogs... or farm animals such as cows and buffalo. 

I took some sick birds to the university vets.. but the results from poop samples and swabs were inconclusive.. some kinds of bacteria.. but they told me they were in small amounts and naturally occurring.. and I had antibiotics given to clear the 'infection' up. But this had no effect... and it cost me so much money I can't do that again.

The birds 'free range' in the afternoon. I use let them out of the coop to fly around and get exercise. They are either flying or walking about on my house roof. They don't spend any time on the ground / grass. Only sometimes landing on my concrete patio have a peck about... but that's very clean.

The sand is the same sand I use for my chickens and also my parakeets... and have used this kind of course sand for many years.

The coop is large.. set on concrete base.. small wire mesh so no vermin or birds can get in. Open at the front.. and 2 thirds of both sides. Solid back and roof. No rain can get in.

The new birds were young adults.. which set down to breed a few week later. They have had no inoculations from me or the previous owner. 

I am sorry, I can't remember the name of the antibiotics I used. They were from a vet / pet supply shop. They were designed for poultry. It was a power to mix with drinking water.. I also fed some with a syringe by hand to make sure they got enough. It said it treated e coli and salmonella.. and other bacteria. I also used a different antibiotic which treated different bacteria on birds that got sick later as the first one did not work. Sadly neither did this kind.

I have also treated for coccidiosis too.. with the proper poultry medication. Again no good results.

I am SUSPECTING its *circovirus*

If this is the virus... how can I get rid of it in the future? What will happen to my birds later.. will they get immunity or will the virus die out in the loft?

Thank you all again for you help.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If it is circovirus, apparently adult birds get or have some immunity but young birds die off. That us just according to what I read, since we had just the one youngster who tested positive for circovirus. A blood or tissue sample can be sent for testing but it costs $80 to $100 here to do that in the US. Not sure what it would cost in Thailand. Maybe a mail ordered test might be available in your area. Is there a testing lab nearer you where such a test might be done? Am not sure it is circovirus but it is a possibility. Does anyone nearer Thailand know if a place to have such a test or necropsy done? There is no cure for circovirus so hope that is not what your young birds have. Apparently with supportive treatment some one year year old or older, birds recover but young birds usually succumb from opportunistic infections. Am so sorry to hear about your losses. Losing Chloe was a real tragedy for us and the avian and exotic vets did everything right but told us they had never had any young pigeons survive it. Kiddy, do you know of anywhere closer than the U.S. where a test of blood or tissue might be done fairly inexpensively for circovirus?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We don't have much of anything against viridae (plural of "virus"). And, regarding the symptoms of encephalitis, sometimes it's so fast that they literally just lay down, go to sleep and die. How fast that happens just depends on how deadly the causal agent is. Some forms of PMV will do it; some forms of Salmonellae will do it; some forms of E. coli will do it... you get the picture. One correct phrase for them just laying down and basically dying is "clinical depression".

Is there any chance that you flock-treated with Enrofloxacin (often called "Baytril")? That's one that you can put in the waterers for a few weeks and clear an awful lot of things.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it were circovirus, by the way, you'd see some rather-more-protracted deaths taking weeks or more and lack of primary flight feather growth.

Pidgey


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Pidgey, hope it is something treatable not circovirus. Enrofloxacin sounds like it might be worth a try. I hope they don't have circovirus is it is a terrible disease.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If I were going to try to fight Circo in a loft, I'd probably try using hydrogen peroxide in the waterers, seeing as how nothing ELSE works...

Pidgey


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

When Chloe got sick, she had her flight feathers. Her eyes had just changed to orange. She came from a local breeder who races and let his birds mix with chickens and ferals and circo apparently came through this area two years ago according to local racers. She was fine for a while. She just quit eating and drinking. She had and was treated for canker, then staph, then yeast, then malaria, then aspergillosis. Necropsy showed that her bursae and thymus were gone. She got sick rapidly and died within about fourteen days despite hospitalizations and around the clock vet care. Her poop was yellowish and green and loose and she had first yellow canker then white staph then yeast in her throat and crop. Her crop shut down after tube feedings. She started breathing bad but nebulizer treatments did not help. She had malaria in her blood and aspergillosis through her organs. She was tried on Enrofloxacin and other antibiotics and two antifungals. According articles online, apparently the virus would eventually run its course through a flock. Older birds can have circo without any symptoms so eliminating sick birds does not help and should not be done. I hope that is not what jak2002003 has in his flock and I really hope there is a vaccine or cure for this terrible disease soon. Am just relaying the symptoms and what we tried to see if any symptoms jak is seeing are similar or different from his young birds. There is a $50 blood test that apparently people in Australia can get that requires just one drop of blood. I don't know much about viruses but hope they don't affect pigeons routinely. I had no idea pigeon viruses were possible or could be so devastating and sad. Circo is like pigeon AIDS. Prevention by not letting young birds less than a year old join a flock and testing for circo and keeping new birds isolated until they prove negative for circo is what our avian vet recommended and that is what we are doing to make sure we never encounter circovirus again. Adult birds can transmit it even though asymptomatic and pass it to their young. It seemed to kick in when Chloe reached the squeaker stage and started her first molt. Jak2002003 I hope your birds have a treatable bacteria or parasite. Please keep us posted. If you haven't tried Enrofloxacin as Pidgey suggested and later a probiotic like probac those would be worth a try. If it is circovirus nothing works. If you can get an inexpensive test mail ordered to you in Thailand it requires one drop of blood from the foot or toe. Best wishes.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

Pidgey said:


> We don't have much of anything against viridae (plural of "virus"). And, regarding the symptoms of encephalitis, sometimes it's so fast that they literally just lay down, go to sleep and die. How fast that happens just depends on how deadly the causal agent is. Some forms of PMV will do it; some forms of Salmonellae will do it; some forms of E. coli will do it... you get the picture. One correct phrase for them just laying down and basically dying is "clinical depression".
> 
> Is there any chance that you flock-treated with Enrofloxacin (often called "Baytril")? That's one that you can put in the waterers for a few weeks and clear an awful lot of things.
> 
> Pidgey


YES.. GREAT.... I have seen that medication in the pet shop place I got the antibiotics.

I will go tomorrow and get it.

Shall I treat all the flock, or just the sick birds? I only have one sick one now.. and 11 healthy ones. The sick one is the only youngster.. just having its first moult. The other 3 died.

I think its the virus thing.. because its only killing the young birds all at the same age and stage of development.. when they come up to their first moult.

The adults and squabs are all really healthy and fat.

But I will use the Baytril stuff just in case.

Anything I can do in case its the disease from mosquitoes? 

PS. The birds that die always have normal poop.. until they stop eating.. then the poop gets smaller and eventually light green... just because they have no food to digest. I think if its bacterial infection of the gut like e coli or salmonella they would get bad watery poops, right? 

Also no canker or anything wrong inside their beaks or necks.

MY PLAN......

I am thinking that I can treat with the baytril and then STOP all breeding for a few months... then the birds may get the virus (if its the virus) out of they systems? Des that sound a good idea?

Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, sounds like a plan.

And, yes, Circovirus can certainly be swift and brutal. What I was getting at was that SOME individual in a crowd of such will usually present with the more protracted form and have flight and tail feather problems that are kind of obvious.

Flock-treating with Enrofloxacin is good, but we need to take a look at the formulations that you can get your hands on--grab some info first, like cell-phone pictures of the labels so we can figure it out. Sometimes you can pay a lot for only a little, and sometimes just a little for a lot--just depends. And not all are water soluble, either. 

Kinda' need to know how much water how many pigeons are going through in a day, too, for that matter...

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*If it were me, I would probably never breed those same birds that had those youngsters that died, just as added precaution. *


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

jak2002003 said:


> I am loosing over 50 percent of my young pigeons to a disease.
> 
> All the adults are healthy... lay eggs and raise squabs with no problems.
> 
> ...


Sound like salmonella to me. Adults are immune, and the young pigeons died. Try to treat for salmonella and clean all the dishes and surfaces.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would have a youngster tested for circovirus. That's what killed Chloe. I fear it is more common than people think now and affects young birds not adults.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

*circo virus*



cwebster said:


> Would have a youngster tested for circovirus. That's what killed Chloe. I fear it is more common than people think now and affects young birds not adults.


Had blood tests back... and yes, its circo virus. 

Does this mean its always going to be in my flock?

If I don't allow any breeding for about 6 months.. do adults clear it from their system?

How long can the virus stay in the environment?

Can Chickens get this disease... as I also have fancy chickens and lost 2 a couple of months ago to similar symptoms.

OMG.. just my luck to get this thing in my birds... seem to have been having so many problems over the last few months, what with a hawk killing my budgies through and aviary mesh, my pigeons getting sick, my chickens getting sick, and my dog needing an operation. AHHRRR!!!!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am sorry you have had such a hard time! Yes circo is really a bad disease. Would not introduce any birds for at least six months and if then only ones that are at least a year old. Gave read that flocks eventually clear it but many of the young will die. Adults reportedly develop some immunity. I think it is specific to pigeons. Am very sorry to hear they have circo because the only thing that can help is supportive care, there is no treatment. Would also monitor your adults for diseases they could catch from the youngsters...Chloe had canker then staph then yeast and coccidia and malaria and aspergillosis. Circo is like birdie AIDS. It can stay in the environment for six months or more. We cleaned everything Chloe was around with soap,and water then bleach and discarded porous things. Adults can reportedly transmit it while babies are in the nest. We had our three adults tested and will not breed them or introduce any birds less than a year old and only if they are circo negative, it hurt us so much losing Chloe.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

jak2002003 said:


> Had blood tests back... and yes, its circo virus.
> 
> Does this mean its always going to be in my flock?
> 
> ...


Those are questions iam sure a veterinarian can answer for you, even if members are knowledgeable they are not DR's. I think it is good to get advice here but to diagnose and detail In depth care ,plus knowledge of a disease needs a professional. I would visit the Australian pigeon company and contact Dr Walker.


Also,it's best to stay away from paranoid unstable people who are anti-Veterinarian, esp if their experiences are in another country than yours.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

jak2002003 said:


> Had blood tests back... and yes, its circo virus.
> 
> Does this mean its always going to be in my flock?


I've read on a website the advice of a doctor working in a veterinary drug factories, a man that made hundreds if not thousands of tests and he was saying that for circo virus or any immunity problems, King Herb, a traditional Chinese remedy, give surprisingly good results. I cannot say from my own experience anything. I have tried this remedy on healthy as well on sick birds and saw no spectacular difference, but maybe these birds were not having immunity problems.

I think you should rely on alimentary supplements for streghtening a bird's immune system: vitamins, calcium, probiotics and acv daily in water, hepatoprotective supplements if available. Also as much comfort as possible. Comfort makes a bird happy and happiness is a great medicine as the opposite, the stress causes immunodepression and is helping the diseases.

Read more in the link from my signature about alimentary supplements.


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## Budhead (Feb 6, 2021)

jak2002003 said:


> I am loosing over 50 percent of my young pigeons to a disease.
> 
> All the adults are healthy... lay eggs and raise squabs with no problems.
> 
> ...


Its appears that they are suffering from Coccidiosis. Get 

DAC DEFENDING 5 IN 1 POWDER 100g3-IN-1 POWDER 100 GR
Add to drinking water for 7 days Or force feed via tube. I have this problem where my birds were lethargic, not eating, weight loss, death withing a few days or the same day. Good luck


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