# Thoughts on racing/distances



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm curious to hear some thoughts on this situation:

We have been flying with the combine here since 2002. We've always flown South or SW. We've always been on the long end. The combine was flying the same stations WAY before we got here, so we're talking years and years, as far as I know.
A North or NE or NW schedule has been proposed a couple of times over the last 7 years, but never got voted in. Now, this year, for whatever reason......(well, I actually am pretty sure of the reason, but I'll leave that part out), the North schedule was passed at our last meeting. 
So, in your opinions, what does that do to flyers who obviously have been breeding birds for whatever distances they were flying. Now, for instance, my birds that always had to fly a minimum of 175 miles for their first race, will be looking at about 100 miles, give or take. Whereas, the short man, who's birds have always flown between 50 and 75 miles on the first race, is looking at around 220 to 250 miles on their first race.
When we first moved here, I had some Sprinter birds. Fast maturing, fast short distance strains.......and over the years, I've slowly weeded them out because to be honest, they just couldn't handle the schedule that we flew. Now I've got all these long distance birds that will not have to fly more than 220 miles.
SO, I'm just wondering how this is going to play out. 
Let me say, I'm not complaining......our club voted for this schedule and have always voted for it when it was proposed.
I guess it's obvious that the guys in the middle of the combine are pretty much covered. No matter which way we fly, their birds are doing the same mileage wise.......just a different direction.
How do you think it will effect the short and long flyers?


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Renee,

I think you are going to find The birds you have bred for the longer distances will not have the speed to win the shorter races. As you get out to the distance you should see them come up the sheet. This is not to say some birds will surprise you. The only way to know for sure how this change will effect your birds is to fly it!

One thing you could look at doing would be to find someone who has been on the short end and do a young bird swap with them and see if the other birds do better for you/them on this new corse.

Ace


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

ace in the hole said:


> Hi Renee,
> 
> I think you are going to find The birds you have bred for the longer distances will not have the speed to win the shorter races. As you get out to the distance you should see them come up the sheet. This is not to say some birds will surprise you. The only way to know for sure how this change will effect your birds is to fly it!
> 
> ...



Well, I am breeding out of one 2003 cock bird that was on my race team that is from the short distance birds I use to have. I let him raise one baby last year, just to put him to use......, and it turned out to be one of my better YB's...........so this year, I've got 2 out of him and 2 more on the way...we'll see how that works out.
Last year, every single week end except for one, we had a NW or NE wind....strong winds too, flying from the SW.........now this year, we'll probably get those SW winds every week end.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If the prevailing winds in your combine are from the North,then flying from that direction makes sense...In my combine here,it`s a SW direction,and that`s the direction we fly from...I`m on the short end,and way south,so the short races are allmost imposible to win for me...I have distance pigeons anyway,so that goes against me,except,if the race has a north east or east wind..Then I can be very competive..It sounds like you will be in the same boat as me...But I don`t want any sprint pigeons...There`s not much glory,or any $$$ to be won in 100 to 200 mile races...The 300 mile and up in YB`s are where the $$$ are,and the glory to go with it..In OB`s,it`s 400 to 600 miles...That`s why sprint pigeons are not needed,or will they do me any good...I had 3 of them a guy gave me...I won 1st to 3rd combine overall the 1st YB race..The 2nd race I lost all 3 birds...There went the experiment for me....I`ll stick with what I have...I did add 1 middle distance hen,and her YB`s did well for me last year..I want to see what they do in the 500 miler this year,before I go any farther with the Hen !!!.....Alamo


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Alamo, Where are your race stations?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, the one thing I can see that's good, if we fly the course I'm thinking we'll fly, is I think my loft is in a better position. Flying from the South or SW, there were a bunch of flyers west of me and bunch east of me and then there's little ole me sitting right in the middle all alone. It was tough to win, although when I look at the minutes I lost by, we were close a few times......but no cookie....... Flying from the NE, I'm still sitting in the middle, but have the west flyers birds flying nearer to my loft in the path going home. Now, I just have to figure out how to get my birds to STOP and not keep going and have to turn around and come back........


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Our 1st race is Parkersburg,WV...Then Athens,Ohio...Then Jeffersonville,Ohio...Then Cincy,Ohio...Then Louisville,Ky(350M)....That`s our YB stations...In OB`s, it`s Effingham.ILL(500M)..and OFallon,ILL (600M)......Alamo


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> Well, the one thing I can see that's good, if we fly the course I'm thinking we'll fly......


Renee,
Which way do you think the course will go?
I'm not sure how this will work for me, as you know I'm in the middle.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> Well, I am breeding out of one 2003 cock bird that was on my race team that is from the short distance birds I use to have. I let him raise one baby last year, just to put him to use......, and it turned out to be one of my better YB's...........so this year, I've got 2 out of him and 2 more on the way...we'll see how that works out.
> Last year, every single week end except for one, we had a NW or NE wind....strong winds too, flying from the SW.........now this year, we'll probably get those SW winds every week end.


 HI RENEE, Don't get rid of your long distance family get 2 or 3 pair of short distance birds.With the cock that you have now that should be enough. When you bred the cock did you breed him to a long distance hen? If you did there should be a message there. Some people believe that crossing long and short distance birds gives you a middle distance bird,I don't believe that, i feel that the young from that type of cross will in some cases be short and others will long,so in young birds you will have young from that type of mating that will do well others may infact be birds that are better suited for long distance but you will need to hold them over for the longer old bird races to find out.For some reason I have the idea that your combine is spread out over a large area,have you checked what the line of flight would be from the new race stations this does have an effect on the races. Keep this in mind that after the first year on this new course there may be those that want to go back to the old course, so I would not make any drastic changes now.......GEORGE


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## Barn Pigeon (Feb 11, 2005)

FP
You will be sitting sweet. By the time those birds break left and right around Danville to MT Airy . The big lead groups will be on our side of I-85 where as now the big group is going more west of us.  In a SW race check back on your results in YB. YB love to flock fly. The truth is Renee has raised her birds to handle the distance and those guys on the south end are going to see this very shortly. I just wonder how many 250 and 350 mile YB will be south of us. The south end has a problem getting birds out of Atlanta now. There are short and long distance birds. I like to keep both because we are in the middle. IMO. FP missed you a the banquet. You going to may the combine banquet this Sunday.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> I'm curious to hear some thoughts on this situation:
> 
> We have been flying with the combine here since 2002. We've always flown South or SW. We've always been on the long end. The combine was flying the same stations WAY before we got here, so we're talking years and years, as far as I know.
> A North or NE or NW schedule has been proposed a couple of times over the last 7 years, but never got voted in. Now, this year, for whatever reason......(well, I actually am pretty sure of the reason, but I'll leave that part out), the North schedule was passed at our last meeting.
> ...


 In our Combine, this subject is debated and fought over, ever winter meeting. And the race stations change back and forth. And the result is the "winners" from the previous season are now the new losers. Same thing has happened numerous times, when "Aces" move to a new loft location....often to now end up way down the race sheet. 

This change just may mean, that now you are the new "Ace".....enjoy the moment, and don't let it go to your head, because chances are, last year's winners won't like this course, if it means they are now losers. And will call for a return to the old "better" course. 

This fact of life, must be as old as the sport itself, if you can't breed better birds, or adapt your management to win, then move to a better location, if that is not feasible, or does not work....then change the race course !!!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

george simon said:


> HI RENEE, Don't get rid of your long distance family get 2 or 3 pair of short distance birds.With the cock that you have now that should be enough. When you bred the cock did you breed him to a long distance hen? If you did there should be a message there. Some people believe that crossing long and short distance birds gives you a middle distance bird,I don't believe that, i feel that the young from that type of cross will in some cases be short and others will long,so in young birds you will have young from that type of mating that will do well others may infact be birds that are better suited for long distance but you will need to hold them over for the longer old bird races to find out.For some reason I have the idea that your combine is spread out over a large area,have you checked what the line of flight would be from the new race stations this does have an effect on the races. Keep this in mind that after the first year on this new course there may be those that want to go back to the old course, so I would not make any drastic changes now.......GEORGE



This cock bird is actually mated to my IF Champion (2413) which people say is a long distance pigeon. She's Jan Aarden/Van Wonroy.....however, she won numerous races from 166 miles (the shortest we flew) to 500..so she did both. I had a brother/nest mate of hers that did very well. He never won any races but he was 100% of the time my first cock bird home on races that I sent him too. I actually gave him to someone last year and sometimes regret doing that........but, what can you do?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Now you'll have head winds, and cross winds its time to cross your Van loons with a Houben.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There's one main reason I didn't want the change. I'm almost in the middle of the combine, so it's not changing my distance much, just a bit longer this time. The reason is I know a lot of people won't be happy. The people down in Charlotte and below are happy to finally have a real race, but can they handle it? Our combine is as old as dirt and they've always flown the same direction. So the people around Charlotte are used to flying short races, and you guys are used to long right from the start. If everyone's been breeding out of their better birds, then they've shaped their loft to fit their distance and their methods. I think just about everyone on the long and short ends are going to have to change a few things, whether it be the way they're breeding, they way they prep the birds, etc. 
My other complaint is we'll probably be training even less than last year because of gas. 85 used to be right smack down the middle of the course for us, and it probably won't be that easy anymore  But we'll see!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

We've got the same problem with training..........going south was right down where I go to visit my Mom and Grandma. In fact I've released my birds at my Moms house a thousand time.....right on the line of flight and a perfect distance. We didn't always have to make a special trip to train. NOW......we don't know ANYONE north of us, so it's going to be a special trip north every time we train.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Long ago,when I and the other 50 lofts were flying with the Pittsburgh Southern Combine...We had 125++ lofts flying..The course was (not really) Southwest..All the birds from lofts up north were allways 15 to 30 minutes ahead of all the southern lofts..The prevailing wind was,and still is Southwest...I finally got the combine to change all the stations,to a really southwest course,so that all the lofts birds in the race would have the wind behind them...We did a heck of alot better,and the ALL-AMERICAN lofts of Pete Beley,Rich Dworek,Lou Arcuri etc etc etc,still had birds on the top of the race sheet...These lofts never complained about the new direction.....It was only the little cry babies that couldn`t win anymore,just because they were located way up north,that made the combine split up...I liked flying against all the All-American lofts...When you beat them,you can BRAG about it...The cry babies,could never ahear to that fact...That`s why we pulled our 50 Lofts out of the combine back in the early 1990`s...I enjoyed flying against the Best we had,and was never afraid to express that fact to the cry babies...If I had my say/way,I would move to New Jersey to fly with and against the 50 All-American lofts they have there,in the Central Jersey Combine...I probally would be down on the report sheet,but if I got to the top in any races,I certainly could toot my horn about my birds efforts ~~~.......Alamo
PS:I was the PSC Combine Prez...and or Publicity Man..and or the Secretary way back when...I did all I could to keep the split from happening...One of the biggest gripes the cry babies gave for going back to the OLD course was,the new course was hard on the truck,going up and around the hills of West Virginia and Ohio....They could care less about the truck..They didn`t like being on the bottom of the race sheet !!!!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The only places I can think of we'd go up North for is my sisters house in statesville, all the guys in the club but Grady, our place in the mountains, and your house Renee  Our birds might come visit you one day, lol 
We don't go to any of those places regularly, so it'd still be special trips. My school is a bit north of us, so that'll be one place to 'train' (probably only 10 air miles or less?) that I'd HAVE to go, training or not.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, come on up! You could release them here, no problem. I've submitted a schedule of sorts with race stations to Steve. Haven't heard back from him though. There's only two main highways going north through VA. 29 and 85.....IMO, 29 is the best route.......there's not a lot of choices to make as far as race stations.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm 32 miles north of you (Becky)and I think Renee is close to 70 for me. Renee is Probably about 90 for you. I should be close to the middle.

So about where would the first race station be?

As for training , I'll just do what I have to.....go north.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

fastpitch dad said:


> So about where would the first race station be?



Well, that depends on which northern highway they decide to take. That hasn't been determined yet.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

IMO, 29 looks better to me too. Just seems like it'd be easier to get the miles out there since it looks (from my little mostly NC map) more straight up and down.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> Well, come on up! You could release them here, no problem. *I've submitted a schedule of sorts with race stations to Steve*. Haven't heard back from him though. There's only two main highways going north through VA. 29 and 85.....IMO, 29 is the best route.......there's not a lot of choices to make as far as race stations.


I was just trying to get some ideal's .
I thought maybe 29 and then on up the course hit 81.
However, sometimes I think to much.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

fastpitch dad said:


> I was just trying to get some ideal's .
> I thought maybe 29 and then on up the course hit 81.
> However, sometimes I think to much.


The original schedule proposed WAS up 81, however, once you get up far enough, it takes you over a mountain range that I wasn't aware of. The birds would be on the west side and there's only one pass through there so if they didn't all fly through that pass to get on the east side, they would have to either fly over the mountains or south and the come back east............point is, 81 isn't a good way to go.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Renee, The obvious observation is the middle guys will not be affected by this change. I am suspect there are more guys in the middle than the outer fringes (ie. south and north). The ideal YB will win at 100 to 350 and that is what alot of people attempt to breed for in their loft. Easier said than done. I did see the post telling you to put van loons and Houbens together. I highly recommend this as well since it has been working for me. I am also at the far north end of our race course and end up with cross winds and longer distances than the majority of people in our combine. We are also off the line of flight to add to the difficulty. You may have to switch up breeders for this year to help adjust to the change in distance. Put your big breasted birds together for the shorter distances and the other body types together for the middle distances. Our combine is constantly trying to change the course direction in hopes it will change the outcome of the races. Almost everytime it has been done it has not changed tihe outcome of the top flyers. Bottom line is good healthy birds will win. Good luck this year and just have fun.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

whitesnmore said:


> Renee, The obvious observation is the middle guys will not be affected by this change. I am suspect there are more guys in the middle than the outer fringes (ie. south and north). The ideal YB will win at 100 to 350 and that is what alot of people attempt to breed for in their loft. Easier said than done. I did see the post telling you to put van loons and Houbens together. I highly recommend this as well since it has been working for me. I am also at the far north end of our race course and end up with cross winds and longer distances than the majority of people in our combine. We are also off the line of flight to add to the difficulty. You may have to switch up breeders for this year to help adjust to the change in distance. Put your big breasted birds together for the shorter distances and the other body types together for the middle distances. Our combine is constantly trying to change the course direction in hopes it will change the outcome of the races. Almost everytime it has been done it has not changed tihe outcome of the top flyers. Bottom line is good healthy birds will win. Good luck this year and just have fun.



Well, it's a bit late to switch breeders as my birds have been together since Dec and I'm about ready to wean my first round......of course I knew that the North course was being proposed, but never in my wildest dreams did I ever think it would get voted in.........LOL
Oh well, it is what it is...........just have to see how things turn out. Maybe I'll be surprised......


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> This cock bird is actually mated to my IF Champion (2413) which people say is a long distance pigeon. She's Jan Aarden/Van Wonroy.....however, she won numerous races from 166 miles (the shortest we flew) to 500..so she did both. I had a brother/nest mate of hers that did very well. He never won any races but he was 100% of the time my first cock bird home on races that I sent him too. I actually gave him to someone last year and sometimes regret doing that........but, what can you do?


 HI RENEE,You see that mating has turned out a very good bird that won short and long.You know that not every bird is a good racer and that 80% are duds,and the last 20% are good birds and in that group we are luckey if we get a super champ. Don't worry about changing matings this year its to late for that. You would only upset the birds and they would be stress out at least for their first round. ..........GEORGE


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

There should be some mathematical compensation for lofts that are farther than the race distance. I find it unusual that winning birds are calculated just using yards per minute. If your lofts are farther than others, then your birds do more, yet they get scored the same.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Whether you know it or not,lofts on the LONG end have a big advantage on most races...Let me give you a senerio on how this is true...YB race..150 Miles....
Wind: Southwest 5 to 10mph...Weather:Sunny...Temp:70.....Release:7:30am...
The birds are flying with the wind at their backs...As normal,the wind starts getting to ground level in the 10am to 10:30am time frame...Short end(125 Miles) guys start getting birds around 10:00am or so...The long end birds are still flying AS the wind starts picking up,and they fly at a faster speed the last 25+ miles to home,then the short end guys birds did...Since MOST clubs/combines have race courses that use the prevailing wind for their races,the long end guys have a advantage most of the time..The only time,races with a headwind,is when they are at a disadvantage...I went through our old combines race results for the 15 years previous...70 to 75% of the time the wind was from the South/Southwest direction...That`s sure is GREAT for the long end guys...SEVEN to EIGHT races out of TEN,they have a big advantage on the short end guys...It seems to me,that the long end lofts get TOO MUCH time for their birds to get home,over the short end lofts..I have read a HUNDRED times, how much BETTER the RACING PIGEONS of today are,over pigeons from the early 1900`s...If this is REALLY TRUE,how come the allowed OVERFLY TIME is not ADJUSTED to this fact ??????
So many changes have been made by the TWO governing racing pigeon unions,over the years to make this hobby fair,when, I think the BIGGEST thing they can adjust/change has never been done,or even talked about,as far as I know !!!!.......Alamo


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

The new pigeon GPS system shows otherwise on lofts at the far end having the advantage. As with other creatures (including man), they tend to SLOW down the longer they exert energy not speed up. Ask the long enders in my club if they think they have the advantage on a race. Our race sheets prove otherwise and have been that way for years. I suspect some long enders beat short ended guys because of either inferior birds or poor management. I would like to hear from others on what their experiences have been in their club.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Although the wind in your example may cause the long end to have an advantage, I think the disadvantages weigh it out enough to where it's not any better for them than it is for the short end. Just think of all the things that can happen within that extra 100 miles Renee's birds had to fly. All kinds of weather, hawks, planes, powerlines (never really understood why that was such a common excuse  I suppose it's possible if the wind is causing the birds to fly low), and of course getting tired.
Yards per minute is the best way to do this. Most of our regular winners are on the long end, so they get the recognition they deserve for flying all that extra time. I do think it would be much more fair to have the results in 4 forms, since our combine is so stretched out. There should be a set for the southern, the middle, and the northen parts. Then have one big 'overall' page with them all combined like we're doing now. I found some race records that are as old as the hills, and our combine did do that. At least then it'd give some people who were normally drowned out by one area, the ability to have some bragging rights that they are winners in _their_ area.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

whitesnmore said:


> The new pigeon GPS system shows otherwise on lofts at the far end having the advantage. As with other creatures (including man), they tend to SLOW down the longer they exert energy not speed up. Ask the long enders in my club if they think they have the advantage on a race. Our race sheets prove otherwise and have been that way for years. I suspect some long enders beat short ended guys because of either inferior birds or poor management. I would like to hear from others on what their experiences have been in their club.


 I have a hard time beliving that a bird which must fly an extra...say 100 miles is at some sort of advantage as a general rule. Perhaps under some condition, a case could be made...but that is why we have a short, middle and long section. I have always looked at my birds performance in local racing, on a relative basis. On any given race, the weather conditions play a major role. Which is why I always view loft position, and club position more importantly then someone on the line of flight, 70 miles away. My One Loft results, and not my Combine results, have always, and will continue to be, my measuring stick.


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