# How to detect canker



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

My two pigeons, PMV survivors, have the problem of less feathers on the neck. I had treated both of them with 40 mg metronidazole for 10 days, when I got them four months back. But the feathers never grew back. 

Their mouths look fine, no growths. One of them Ricky, actually had white growths in the mouth when I got him, which went away with the treatment.

Right now, Ricky is being hand-fed because his beak is hooked and I am yet to see the vet about this. After his beak is corrected, I plan to see if he pecks and eats on his own. 
Ranjo, on the other hand, doesn't want to eat. I am hand-feeding her seeds and peas thrice a day. Recently, I had given her peas in the afternoon, and I was surprised to see in the evening that one pea has got stuck to her throat. I think it was the pea because I could move it and roll it between my fingers, and when I felt her throat after a few minutes, the lump was gone. Anyway, I again gave her metronidazole last week for 5 days. 

My doubt is - Is canker the only reason for loss of feathers in the neck and throat area? There is no bad breath, no abnormal droppings. Mouth is pink and clear. Can canker linger on inside a pigeon without causing major problems?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Loss of feathers there can be due to molting (unlikely in this case), mites and no doubt other problems. I guess it is possible that if the birds did have Canker that created the problem, then maybe it caused some damage resulting in an inability to grow new feathers in the area.

Really, though, loss of feathers is not something that would occur unless a bird had such a severe case of untreated Canker that the nodules were forcing themselves into the skin in the throat area. That specific symptom (loss of feathers) is one I can't actually find recorded as a 'common' symptom.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Where on the neck are the feathers missing? I would treat for mites, so that can be ruled out. *


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Have u treated both birds for canker at the same time???


kunju said:


> Can canker linger on inside a pigeon without causing major problems?


Canker is always there in birds at any given time. Pigeons live with an equillibrium with triches in their bodies. Stress or other ailments break that equillibrium and canker take over manifesting itself in serious form. Body may become helpless in reviving strength and immunity again to establish that equillibrium again in lieu of ongoing other health issues
Ur birds have low immunity and nutritional reserves + stress of diseases that's why they can't succesfully grow the feathers. Feathers may have stopped in their tracks growing.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

The feathers are missing in patches, below the ear and in the throat area. It makes their neck look thin. There are no pin feathers coming up in those areas.

I treated them for canker at different times, but they were all isolated and in different rooms back then. Now all my pigeons are together in the same balcony and sharing the same water bowl. 
I will treat for mites and see.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It would help if you could post pictures of the birds and the missing feathers. 

Missing feathers around the face and beak is very common in young birds with canker. And it doesn't have to be so severe really. And no, it isn't listed in the symptoms of canker, but it is definitely often a sign of it. Usually in younger birds.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Interesting, but I do not understand the process by which canker, which follows the alimentary tract primarily, could directly account for feather loss around the face and beak. Maybe someone can explain it?

Maybe the weakened state of a bird with canker leaves it more open to mites - birds which are kinda run down, as a couple of ours seem to get in the colder months, may have a tendency to mites.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Or, is it a case of feathers simply don't grow at all under the beak, if a youngster gets it from the parent?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It has nothing to do with mites. I did find a place that does list it as a symptom John, 

These are the most common symptoms of canker in pigeons: I have seen this in young birds maybe a couple of months old.
.......................................................................................................................................................................

SYMPTOMS IN SQUABS (baby pigeons)

Not all these symptoms will be present in each case. The symptoms appear 6 days after infection.

Visible lump in the neck or navel area.
Stretched skin over site of lesion.
Cheesy growth in mouth or throat.
* Patches of baldness around neck and mouth .*
Slow blinking
Ruffled feathers
Loose watery droppings
Excessive thirst
Loss of appetite
Loss of weight
http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/illnessesandinjuries.htm


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Ahh! I have since found out that Helen (Nooti on PT) first reported that, and that the problem can be seen in squabs when the parents have passed down an overload of trichonomads during feeding, causing canker mass in the throat which inhibits the growth of new feather follicles.

Cannot say as I have seen it, hence the query. Most of our past rescues (those which we treated ourselves, at least) have been past the squabbie stage, including those we picked up with canker.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I've seen it often. So that's how I knew about it. I went searching for a link to show you,
and I laughed when I found it there. Small world. Good web site!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I am attaching pics for Ricky. Sorry they are not so clear.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sorry, but if they aren't clear, they really can't help much.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

That doesn't look like canker patches though...

Try not to give canker medication so frequently. Do make sure it's really canker before you treat them. Giving meds so quickly (and too much) before proper diagnosis may result in liver damage and the germs getting immune to that particular med.

Have you treated them for lice and fleas? Instead of illness, maybe we could look to the feather/skin maintenance as an alternative. Let them soak in epsom salt bath, give them a little more ADE (wheatgerm oil, olive oil, etc) and keep their sleeping quarters fresh and clean.

Hopefully these will help.

A question for the experts: Can canker return so quickly after the course of medication? Say in 2-4 months after said treatment?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Sassypants. From what I am reading here, there is no sure way of detecting canker, when it is not present in the mouth but further inside like in the crop. And I have the same doubt - how long does canker medication work to keep canker away?

I treated my birds for lice maybe a month ago. That killed most of the lice, but not all. Occasionally, when I am feeding them, a needle-shaped something hops on to my hand.

Ranjo bathes every week, and I put epsom salts in the water. I bathe Ricky like once a month, by dipping him in a bucket. Their environment is clean, and I put them under the sun for sometime every other day.
After reading in another post, I am now afraid it could be ear mites they are having. These are known to cause imbalance, as well as loss of feathers around the ear, both of which Ricky has. Does anyone have suggestions for ear mites treatment?
Thanks very much.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ivermectin kills parasites both inside and outside on the bird. A couple of drops on the skin on the back of the neck.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jay3. I guess you are referring to the spot where the wings start? I read yesterday about some product called scatt which is applied to the featherless area on the bird's back where the wings start. I don't think we get scatt here, but we get ivermectin.
Is there danger of overdosage? How many drops should I apply?
Thank you very much.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I treated a pigeon with ear mites by smearing vaseline in the feathers around the ear holes. It suffocates the mites. It worked.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kunju said:


> Thanks Jay3. I guess you are referring to the spot where the wings start? I read yesterday about some product called scatt which is applied to the featherless area on the bird's back where the wings start. I don't think we get scatt here, but we get ivermectin.
> Is there danger of overdosage? How many drops should I apply?
> Thank you very much.


*I have always applied two to three drops under each wing, on an area with no feathers. *


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for all advice. I have applied the vaseline on their ears, and also on the featherless spots in the neck. How many days should I continue with the vaseline?
Just to get this clear - the symptoms of ear mites are :
1. ear scratching (they do it occasionally)
2. loss of feathers around the ears (they have bald spots on the neck)
3. balance issues (Ranjo cannot fly, and Ricky loses balance when stressed)
Regarding the 3rd symptom: Ricky loses balance when stressed. Do you think this could be more because of PMV, or ear mites?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

kunju said:


> Thanks Jay3. I guess you are referring to the spot where the wings start? I read yesterday about some product called scatt which is applied to the featherless area on the bird's back where the wings start. I don't think we get scatt here, but we get ivermectin.
> Is there danger of overdosage? How many drops should I apply?
> Thank you very much.



2 or 3 drops on the skin.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

kunju said:


> Thanks for all advice. I have applied the vaseline on their ears, and also on the featherless spots in the neck. How many days should I continue with the vaseline?
> Just to get this clear - the symptoms of ear mites are :
> 1. ear scratching (they do it occasionally)
> 2. loss of feathers around the ears (they have bald spots on the neck)
> ...


Ear mites will cause loss of, or thinning of, feathering around the ears (sometimes you can easily see the ear hole) but not on the neck, so one applies the vaseline just around the ear holes for that.

The balance question is more complex, maybe. One symptom of ear mites can be that birds will often shake their heads as if trying to dislodge something, or hold their head on one side (I mean, like really sideways). I guess it's possible that it could cause a problem with balance, but I didn't see that with my bird.

Inability to balance when stressed _could_ indicate PMV, or at least a residual sign of PMV in a bird who has had it but is way past the six weeks that the virus is active. Some of our survivors still twist their heads more when stressed or excited, for example.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks John D. 
Ricky loses balance and begins to tumble and roll about when stressed, so I guess it could be PMV than ear mites.


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