# Questions about culling



## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

I have seen reference to "culling" here and there on the web- I take it it means to kill. Lots of thoughts run through my mind here. Why do they refer to it as "culling", it still sounds murderous. Why would someone want to kill a domesticated pigeon? Isn't it even illegal here in the US still to shoot any non-game bird? Or is a pigeon considered game?
Somewhere, I saw where someone was afraid if they returned a bird, the owner might cull it. I have returned a number of racing pigeons to their owners over the years, but never thought any of them would want to do any harm to their bird. I wonder now, if I should be asking them if they truly want the bird... Though I doubt someone would travel hundreds of miles to get a bird they didn't want- especially with gas prices lately 
Thanks, in advance, for educating me on this


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

Culling is killing but more than one. So like it means that a whole flock of birds would be killed. I do't know about the US but as far as I know you can kill a pigeons in the UK, well i'm not sure if it's legal but I've heard people shooting them.


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## Niel (May 25, 2005)

Yes, culling means killing.

Unfortunately I don't know much about the law in the US, but I recently read a fascinating book by Andrew D Blechman entitled "Pigeons: the fascinating saga of the world's most revered and reviled bird."

I'd recommend it to anyone; have a look at the following link:

http://www.andrewblechman.com/

In it he describes the world of pigeon shooting and how thousands of birds are netted and released for the shoots so no, it's not against the law (although I think he said it was in some states).

It is definitely the case that many owners will wring the neck of racers that hadn't made their own way back. I know of one person who drove miles to return a bird they had rescued, only to be thanked by the owner then told "but it's no good to me now" and killed in front of her!

Niel


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Mari,
there are a few fanciers who do not want their birds back, however I want to believe that those owners will say so. But it does happen sometimes that they will euthanize their "undesirable" birds. For the owners who do travel quite a distance to pick up their birds I imagine that they want their birds back, otherwise they wouldn't get into the trouble of picking the bird up. 

Reti


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

Thanks, everyone....I may have nightmares tonight, but at least I know a bit more...I'm sure most fanciers would not even dream of harming a bird. I tend to beleive that, if a homer did not return home, it would have a reason- perhaps training error, or in the case of a storm or predator, etc? (If something killed humans for screwing up, we would be extinct!) 

Racing sounds fun, but what I have found is the competition can seem very strong (as it can be with any sport). I like the looks of the racers, but I want to leisurely enjoy my birds (and vice-versa) without added pressures. 
Fancies are neat looking, but I really do like the idea of being able to release my birds and have them be able to find home. It's good exercize for them, and... well, I guess "If you love something let it go..." (That has always stuck in my mind since g-pa told me it when I caught a butterfly). I guess the satisfaction of thinking a bird can fly freely, yet chooses to be here, is attractive.
When I am all set up, I think I will have to dedicate a loft to unwanted pigeons.
The book looks interesting- I'll have to check it out!


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi Mari I am also from Michigan and before rightfully returning the bird to the owner I always ask that dreadful question "What are your plans for the bird upon returning it" ? The reason why I ask is because some racing people will put a lost pigeon to sleep because it didn't return home. Not all do this but some do so always ask before returning the bird.  

Cindy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

michbird said:


> Thanks, everyone....I may have nightmares tonight, but at least I know a bit more...I'm sure most fanciers would not even dream of harming a bird. I tend to beleive that, if a homer did not return home, it would have a reason- perhaps training error, or in the case of a storm or predator, etc? (If something killed humans for screwing up, we would be extinct!)
> 
> Racing sounds fun, but what I have found is the competition can seem very strong (as it can be with any sport). I like the looks of the racers, but I want to leisurely enjoy my birds (and vice-versa) without added pressures.
> Fancies are neat looking, but I really do like the idea of being able to release my birds and have them be able to find home. It's good exercize for them, and... well, I guess "If you love something let it go..." (That has always stuck in my mind since g-pa told me it when I caught a butterfly). I guess the satisfaction of thinking a bird can fly freely, yet chooses to be here, is attractive.
> ...



make it BIG........HUGE........no, GIGANTIC and we'll fill it up in no time..........LOL


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

Thanks, Cindy 
Where abouts in Mich are you? It seems there is really no one in my area (NW of Flint)...most are way west or north.. a few in Detroit area, I guess. Other than this forum (mainly) and the web, I am going into this kinda blind. I've always been great with birds- wild, as well as parrots- but all have so different needs... though there are some similarities too, which is interesting!


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

Renee- I KNOW you are not saying you don't want your birds! LOL


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi Mary Bay City

Cindy


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> make it BIG........HUGE........no, GIGANTIC and we'll fill it up in no time..........LOL


That is so true Renee. I started with Tooter in 2004, and now have the magnificent eight flying machines. The coop that housed 6, now has to be enlarged. Thank goodness the flight pen is up at least .

I recall when I adopted Paris last Summer from Emily and Clay, they told me that when he found Paris out on a country road in Northern Iowa, he contacted the owner of the racing club, and was told the bird got lost, and was of no use to him...anyway, my gain now. He is living out the rest of his years at a pet. I am glad the couple found this site.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

michbird said:


> Renee- I KNOW you are not saying you don't want your birds! LOL


No, not at all.  Just saying that there are always birds that need a home. Taking in unwanted birds would be no problem at all. And all wouldn't be "unwanted". There are times when the owner can't be found or the owner is 500 miles away and there's really no easy way to get the bird back home. There's times when a bird just needs to stay somewhere for a few days other than under a clothes basket or in a parakeet cage until arrangements can be made to get it home.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> make it BIG........HUGE........no, GIGANTIC and we'll fill it up in no time..........LOL


I built my first aviary for a single bird in August 2000. Now there must be well over 90 in there (the aviary has had to be extended regularly), although some are due to be released.

It is always best to ask a fancier what he is going to do with the bird, and to offer to keep it or rehome it if the owner intends to cull it. I believe that culling sick, injured or unsuccessful pigeons is common, at least in the UK. and because of this I doubt that an owner would take offence if you asked.

Yesterday I found a homer down on the green where I feed the feral pigeons. I knew who the owner was and I knew he had paid a lot for the bird so I grabbed the pigeon and returned it to him

He was very pleased to get his pigeon back and I happened to mention how dangerous life on the green was as people would deliberately run pigeons over even if they were homers. His response was to laugh and say "Oh, I don't cull that readily!"

Naturally I asked him to give me the pigeon if there ever came a time when it was to be culled. "This one will never be culled" he assured me. 

At the same time John was visiting a pigeon supplier/fancier in his part of the country and he asked John if he could give a home to the single disabled pigeon that he had in his loft, because he felt that it was not happy. So we will have a new resident next week!

Cynthia


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

One note of clarification on all this. While there is no question that most fanciers that "cull" their pigeons do kill them, the true meaning of the word is to eliminate the animal from one's breeding program. The deisire is to eliminate undesirable traits or attributes from the breeding gene pool. This does not have to mean killing them. If you look at any domesticated animal sport, whether it is horse racing, dog showing, etc., etc., the best breeders have to impement significant selective pressure on the gene pool to search out and magnify the desired genetic traits they are looking for. In our case that is speed. As a breeder, if you want to progress in the sport, you will have to select the best of your colony to continue the genetic lines. By denying certain individuals to contribute to the genetic makeup of your colony you are in the truest sense "culling".

Now, having said all that, it is true that most fanciers that use the term "culling" mean it to be killing outright. Hope I didn't muddy the water too much.

Dan


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

While I have always heard the term "culling" used to mean "killing", I have learned that the term is also used in reducing/eliminating the number of ones flock by finding homes for those unwanted birds.

This is BEST definition I have found of the term, and I hope that all members of this forum know that this is the only acceptible use of the term in this forum.


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

It's great John will be taking in the bird- Good for him! 
I would just LOVE to take in every bird that needed a home- That's just me...But realisticly, I am only allowed so many birds by township ordinances (Thank goodness they have not yet passed any particular to pigeons, as I've seen in other areas!).  So, deciding just what I will do with the limited space has been quite the challenge... I think I need to reserve it for those who need it most 

The last pigeon I returned was apparently a really good bird. I was able to talk some time with this last owner, who had mentioned he had flown this pigeon really hard. The pigeon had a baby to care for at the time that nested with another pair during races, so I'm sure he was one he chose to breed. He was very happy to pick the bird up. He inspected the bird thoroughly, and explained (showing me the feet) that he had been in the mud somewhere, so must have been tired. He explained they fly best in the cooler weather too, though a headwind or bad weather can be horrible for them. He thanked me for the care I had given the bird, then asked about my bluebirds and swallows too. Nice guy- and very informative...Maybe he comes to this board too?

The guy before that, on the other hand, seemed irate that the bird didn't come home. It had been his top bird. This one had flown through horrible storms and was way off course by a couple states. He did not want me to feed the bird anything but water (even after its ordeal), then asked me to send it on its way if it did not leave on its own a day later...without feeding? I did not have a good feeling about this (this pigeon was pooped!), but did as he wished (knowing very little about these birds)... After all, owner knows best- right? This one, had I known then what I know now, I would have inquired more about.


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> While I have always heard the term "culling" used to mean "killing", I have learned that the term is also used in reducing/eliminating the number of ones flock by finding homes for those unwanted birds.
> 
> This is BEST definition I have found of the term, and I hope that all members of this forum know that this is the only acceptible use of the term in this forum.


 So noted, thank you....I like that definition so much better!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Trees,

That is a good definition of the term culling, but I would not advise anyone who has found a bird and is told by the owner that he intends to cull it to assume that it is his intention to find it a new home. If in doubt, ask!

When local authorities use the term cull, be in in respect of birds, deer, badgers or any other creature that someone has a grudge against they invariably mean to kill. The difference between culling and exterminating in these situations is that they thin the numbers down by killing rather than wiping them all out.

Cynthia


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

That is a good point, Cynthia. Knowing there is confusion of the definition is good, and warrants question when someone uses it when you are returning a bird. 
- Personally, I can't stand words which have so much confusion behind their definitions, and this is one I really don't think I would like to use at all...Why is it so hard to say "kill" or "find new homes" anyways? Frankness can be a good thing  That's just my honest opinion.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

michbird said:


> ....
> The guy before that, on the other hand, seemed irate that the bird didn't come home. It had been his top bird. This one had flown through horrible storms and was way off course by a couple states. He did not want me to feed the bird anything but water (even after its ordeal), then asked me to send it on its way if it did not leave on its own a day later...without feeding? I did not have a good feeling about this (this pigeon was pooped!), but did as he wished (knowing very little about these birds)... After all, owner knows best- right? This one, had I known then what I know now, I would have inquired more about.


I've found a few who have turned up either on my balcony (two blocks from the sea) or outside my place of work (way out in the sticks). Some, near the end of last year's season, had been in the same race from France to the UK and there'd been one heck of a bad storm. 

They sure knew to come down near people. I got a phone call from security when one of those at work actually walked into the security man's office, flew up onto the service counter and pooped  

I returned three by courier, arranged by the owners (well over a hundred miles away) and a colleague who found one met the owner half way to return it after she'd cared for it for a week.

If an owner ever said "just send it on it's way" then that's one bird they won't get back. Members of clubs affiliated to the UK's Royal Pigeon Racing Association or other large association are bound by their rules to collect or arrange transport, and 'pigeon courier' is far from expensive ... so I draw my own conclusions.

John


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

I'm not sure what the rules are for the clubs in the US, but it sounds like UK has a good one there. 
Yes, when they are tired, they don't seem to mind the human attention... Though I have noticed, once rested they are anxious to get going


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> While I have always heard the term "culling" used to mean "killing", I have learned that the term is also used in reducing/eliminating the number of ones flock by finding homes for those unwanted birds.
> 
> This is BEST definition I have found of the term, and I hope that all members of this forum know that this is the only acceptible use of the term in this forum.


I'm talking strictly another definition, but in terms where a bird that may be returned to its owner, you should always ASK EXACTLY what will become of the bird, for the birds sake.


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> but in terms where a bird that may be returned to its owner, you should always ASK EXACTLY what will become of the bird, for the birds sake.


 That may be the rules of this forum,, but it doesn't hold up in a court of law.
If you are going to go as far as search for the original owner,, (as you very well should)
What the owner chooses to do with the bird is actually none of your business. It's his bird until he/she chooses to tell you that you can keep it.
To do otherwise and tell yourself,,, I am not giving the bird bac, is in fact breaking the law.
Unless you are an animal rights activists,, in which case,, laws don't matter..
Not just my personal opinion...
Gary H.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If a person raises any type of pigeon, they have to reduce the numbers from time to time. Show, race or performance birds are used to compete. Even the best bird in the loft will be reduced in time as better have been produced. Plus age and such. There is allways some one to take the birds. If all else the pigeon peddlers that go to swap meets and shows to sell birds at a cheap price often. This way the birds are not destroyed Race birds get lost in large numbers. Mainly young bird races you see the birds getting lost. Poor training the moult over raced hawks you name it the birds get lost. Old bird do also but not as many. Proper loft methods from breeding to training help. But as said pigeon numbers are reduced in the sky or the loft every year To look at the word CULL it can mean several methods. Think of it as reducing numbers and improving or maintaining quality. Giving those unwanted birds away is Culling in a more humane way And plenty of people are glad to get them. Finding a lost racer often the owner will not come pick it up. Give the owner a choice to pick it up or ask to keep it Probably better not to release it as it may if far off coarse just remain lost. if near the coarse it can get back home safely.


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

I feel maybe after re-reading what I wrote,, I may have come off a little harsh,,, for that I apologize to Trees,,, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you Trees,, I really do.
But on this occasion,, I humbly disagree.
As relee stated,, if it wasn't for the tough job we have in the culling process,,, we wouldn't have the utmost in either performance type birds or in the fancy show rings.. Its a part of what we do,, there is absolutely no getting around it..
I have noticed in several occasions where folks have brought up the past war pigeon veterans,,, you have no problem with using them as your banner,,,, But,,, I ask you,, How do you think the folks who raised those type of performers got there? I'll let you think on that one...
This will never ever go away,, so why act like it doesn't exist?
Having folks like on this forum to go to when we may have extra birds that we wish were no longer in our breeding program is a plus.. And thank you for that because I have a few I need to find new homes for.
But to make such accusations as to say those who need to dispose of a bird as less than being a real humanbeing goes a little too far.
I have to ask,,, who and what are you trying to protect from the reallities of life? Did someone on here miss basic biology 101?
Gary H.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Royaltypigeon said:


> That may be the rules of this forum,, but it doesn't hold up in a court of law.
> If you are going to go as far as search for the original owner,, (as you very well should)
> What the owner chooses to do with the bird is actually none of your business. It's his bird until he/she chooses to tell you that you can keep it.
> To do otherwise and tell yourself,,, I am not giving the bird bac, is in fact breaking the law.
> ...


Gary,

These are the rules by which WE abide here on the forum,that we don't condone or encourage "culling" (killing) we also make every effort to find the owner, and give the bird back if he still wants it.

I have returned several birds recently, no problem, but I still ask the question. So far each owner was geniunly concerned and wanted the bird back. We only ask for the bird, IF the owner says he will "cull" it, and only keep the bird IF the owner allows.

On the contrary...we do not condone stealing or keeping the bird against the owner's wishes.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

michbird said:


> Thanks, Cindy
> Where abouts in Mich are you? It seems there is really no one in my area (NW of Flint)...most are way west or north.. a few in Detroit area, I guess. Other than this forum (mainly) and the web, I am going into this kinda blind. I've always been great with birds- wild, as well as parrots- but all have so different needs... though there are some similarities too, which is interesting!


Hi Michbird, I am just south of Flint, so we're not far from each other either!


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

TheSnipes said:


> Hi Michbird, I am just south of Flint, so we're not far from each other either!


 Another neighbor!!!! So kewl! What types of pigeons do you keep?


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## KO Loft (Jul 1, 2007)

*A note from a former breeder*

Joe from near detroit with his two cents. take it for what its worth. My grandfather and my families loft breed birds with the theory that quality is what was stressed not quantity. To keep the birds from overpoplulating the coop we limited those birds that were allowed to breed. Quality was placed on those birds. What this allowed us to do is not have to worry about culling. The non breeders received dummy eggs. The next thing we did was expand the loft to accommodate those older breeders that helped the loft be successful. They were retired much like a horse is at a stable. Those birds that produced good racers, well we did a novel idea; he donated them to new guys getting into the hobby and even sold some to breeder back in belgium. His caveat were they were never to be used for any non humane means and if they were to be culled then give them back. Guys won races with these gift birds. They took more pride in breeding winnners than in monetary gain. I am 38 now and have been away from the hobby for roughly 14 years. The guys that I knew here in the Michigan area have long since passed , but when alive they managed to keep low loft numbers, not through culling, but by planning. They knew guys that culled and they used to laugh because they said it was easier for a guy to cull his loft rather than train the bird effectively or plan a proper loft with future expansion. As they started passing they used to remember the old days and said that people wanted instant results. Training was sacrificed for the sake of producing through volume. When they had extra birds they had a breeding exchange program by which new blood was introduced to the loft. They just seemed to always find a way without culling. When my grandfather passed we had to give up the loft because of grandfathering clauses with city ordinances and even this attorney could not win that one. I have looked for the old clubs and even went to one location where young bird auction races were held and found a walmart instead. Another guy who said he would die before they took his birds had his home demolished and a new subdivision built there after his passing. These men came from an era imprinted by the depression where you had to make due with what you had. My grandfather was one of the last older guys I knew who went to the clubs. He gave many of the younger guys birds because he believed this was the way to expand what he realized was a dying sport. When he passed many guys who knew him, who also were cullers, did not even come to the funeral. They didnt cull his stock because it was the pedigree birds that they wanted, but the did not attend his funeral either. It must have been inconvenient. The older guys would have found a ways to do without culling or donating to hunters. It might be more difficult to find a way to get rid of your extra birds, but maybe culling should not be the first or last answer. 

joe


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thanks, Joe, for your take on this....Your grandfather sounds like he was a great guy.

Linda


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

Joe- Wonderful post!
Ah, the good ol' days... It seems nothing is like it used to be anymore, is it  What you explain is so much more like I had imagined things would be. I am very interested in learning more about the methods you mention- Are there any books you might suggest?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Joe. Or KO loft. I have been around pigeons one way or the other For near 50 years. NO one can raise quality birds in every nest. It just can not be done. You have and will allways raise birds Many birds that you do not need. And keeping those birds Well you end up with so many you do not know what to do. Giving unwanted birds away Is Part of reduce stock that you do not need. Threre is NOT one pigeon keeper on earth that does not have to deal with reducing there numbers and maintaining quality. How its done That is the question. Kind way is to give those birds away. 10 pair of birds can produce 60 young birds and more each breeding season. Out of those 60 . 5 may be top birds. Maybe. or just 1. 10 to 15 may be useable stock. So at least 40 of them just are not the right birds. for show or race or performance. Giving those forty away keeps them from being lost or such. If just 1 loft could produce 50% quality each that would something never done before. The peddlers do one thing they spread those unwanted birds to people that want them. It would be just great if each pair could raise quality young every round or at least half the time.


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

I'm sorry, re lee,
In all fairness,
I beleive this might be another instance of confusion with the definition of the word "cull". Joe does say they would donate to others interested in the hobby, or sell their pigeons. 
I certainly did not mean to start something when I began this thread- Just trying to learn. Now I'm wondering if we shouldn't just drop the subject?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

michbird said:


> I certainly did not mean to start something when I began this thread- Just trying to learn. Now I'm wondering if we shouldn't just drop the subject?


Hi Mari,

This is a very HOT topic and the debate can easily turn sour. I do think the subject has been discussed enough, and I want to thank everyone for their input, as alot of knowledge has been shared.

If you would like I can close the thread?


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## michbird (Jul 5, 2007)

LOL- I think you're right, trees. Probably not a bad idea to just close the thread


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

michbird said:


> I'm sorry, re lee,
> In all fairness,
> I beleive this might be another instance of confusion with the definition of the word "cull". Joe does say they would donate to others interested in the hobby, or sell their pigeons.
> I certainly did not mean to start something when I began this thread- Just trying to learn. Now I'm wondering if we shouldn't just drop the subject?


 I know what CULL means But it does not have to mean Kill. By giving birds away you are culling your birds. I was not trying to argue I was stating No one can raise quality birds every round And stating giving the unwanted birds away keeps the numbers down. A good breeder should not sell birds that are not going to help others. Best thing is never sell a bird you would not breed from yourself. Give those lesser birds away And that is still culling the birds but not killing them.


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