# Spartrix Questions



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

The paper that is packaged with Spartrix specifies, "No water for two hours after feeding." Elsewhere, I read that this medication should be given on an empty crop. I'm having some trouble translating this to actual practice. If I pull food and water overnight, the crop would presumably be empty. If the crop needs to be empty so the medication has maximum effect, how long does it need to remain empty after I give the pill? Do I give the pill then feed right away, then water two hours later? Thanks!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

You have it right. Here's what I do, I remove food and water overnight around 9pm. First thing in the morning around 7:30am, I would give them the spartrix pill (on an empty stomach). Then shortly after I put out their feed (about 20 mintues later) and 2 hours after they've eaten, you let them have water


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Hmmm I guess that I should read the directions LOL I just give it if it is needed and if there is a problem it takes care of it.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Thanks!*

Thank you!


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I asked about once as well because I wondered why someone told me to give Spartrix on an empty stomach.
The thing is that spartrix can be irritant to the crop and cause the pigeon to vomit up the crop content and medicine. So best to give on an empty crop.. if it's an emergency case with no time really (like in a serious case of canker) then just give and don't worry about it.
Again I use spartrix a lot and it really doesn't matter, also so far I have only had one pigeon who found it very irritating.. 

Hope that helps.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Based on very limited experience (6 birds), it seems like birds that have worse canker are more likely to vomit. I guess the canker has already irritated the crop lining, so the Spartrix is more likely to cause a reaction.

Is there a way to "ease into" treatment, sort of take the canker down in stages, that wouldn't be such a stress to the birds? I ask this because of the harrowing week I just had.

Walter had been making a gurgling rattle after even a little exertion and Grace just seemed off. The vet did a crop wash and found loads of trich. I had just finished treating with Metronidazole 16 days before, so I called a local pigeon expert who recommended doubling up on the dose of Ronidazole. Since I was concerned about Walter's breathing, I also used Spartrix for a quick knockdown. Walter's rattling stopped within 12 hours...but within a few days he and Grace both stopped eating and their poops were bright green and liquid. She seemed 'dizzy' (nerve damage?). The four other, smaller birds were all fine (they had proportionately smaller doses). 

I brought Walter and Grace inside and put them into separate hospital cages (so he couldn't attack her while she was moving abnormally) with supplemental heat. The vet suggested putting them on Trimeth (sulfa) twice a day for a week. I'm not comfortable tubing birds, but used a small syringe to dribble electrolyte solution into the corner of their mouths every hour to rehydrate them. The next day, I continued every two hours with a dilute Kaytee extract solution (like for newborns - I didn't want to risk crop stasis). By the next day, Walter could drink on his own, but it seemed like Grace was concerned her lack of balance would cause her to fall into the water. Feedings progressed to weaning thickness, always finishing with extra water for Grace. 

By the fifth day, they were both producing semi-normal poop. They could eat small seeds but it took a long time because their fine motor skills were not yet recovered. I moved them back outside, still supplying heat disks day and night. I weighed them every morning and syringed supplemental feedings if they had not maintained weight. It was interesting that Grace eventually started to relax her throat enough that I could give a whole cc at a time. Walter would choke if I gave him more than a third of a cc at once.

Now they seem fully recovered although I continue to monitor their weight. Unfortunately, this afternoon, Walter started scratching at his throat like he did last time so I'm afraid the canker is back! I'll take him into the vet for a crop swab to confirm, but if it is canker, I'm not sure what to try next!!!


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Terry did they have throat canker ? Don't OD them!! it takes a couple of days for it to kill the canker, you'll see the canker getting darker in color, if it is throat canker once it turns brown it is easy to remove with tweezers , if it is further down there are other ways to break it loose. What exactly is the problem ?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

TerriB said:


> Now they seem fully recovered although I continue to monitor their weight. Unfortunately, this afternoon, Walter started scratching at his throat like he did last time so I'm afraid the canker is back! I'll take him into the vet for a crop swab to confirm, but if it is canker, I'm not sure what to try next!!!


]

Double whammie time .. if it's canker again. Give three days of Spartrix and another complete course of Metronidazole at the same time. That means for three days Walter gets Spartrix =and= Metronidazole each day.

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for your responses. I was so afraid they were both going to die because I did something wrong. 

No canker was visible in either of their throats, but numerous trich were found when the vet swabbed the crop. Walter would open his mouth and twist his head left and right while stretching out his neck - sort of like a rooster crowing, but silent. If I rubbed his ears, he would also twist his head, trying to work something loose. Could this be something other than canker? 

If the crop swab comes up with more trich after ten days, does that mean it was resistant to Spartrix (which I gave for three days) and Ronidazole (for 5 days)? I know that Metronidazole can cause nerve damage if given for too long. Is ten days long enough for their bodies to handle another dose? I can get Metronidazole from the vet when he does the crop swab.

I think the canker had eaten a hole into walter's airway because the first few times I gave him the antibiotics, he started coughing and inflated the airsacs all around his neck (including on the back of his neck - very scarey!!!) I thought to help him by holding him with his head pointing down, but when I called the vet later, he said that is bad because the fluid would go up through the hole in the roof of his mouth and out his nose! The vet suggested using vetrap around his neck and figure-eighted under his wings to prevent the airsacs from over-inflating. Um, right. We tried this and he kept falling forward. We confined him in a shoe box but he kept struggling so we gave up and took the vetrap off. Instead, we wrapped him in a towel while medicating or feeding and only give about a quarter of a cc at a time. That seemed to work.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Teryy the way I understand it all pigeons carry Trich , Personally whenever I've treated for canker it didn't come back and it is very very rare that I see it in anything but young birds. From what I'm reading here you should have hammered it. 
Personally I think that you are looking in the wrong direction , but stretch his neck out and run your finger along his throat and see if there are any lumps, start from behind the beak and follow it down to the crop. Are they getting light ? 
What about respitory ? from what I'm reading here I'm almost thinking that this is something that you need to take a close look at.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Terry,

I agree with Motherloadsloft, all pigeons carry Trich. If the Trich levels are truly elevated then it could very easily be what is causing your problems, anyway it sounds as if you may very well have something going on like a possible airsack infection which could also be due to elevated levels of Trich. 

There is a site I would like you to look at and check out the symptoms on each of the pages I am including and see if any of these match what you are experiencing.

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/info_mycoplasmosis.htm

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/digestivetract_trichomoniasis.htm

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/specificinfections_youngbirddisease.htm

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/respiratorytract_infectious catarrh.htm


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

I'm going out on a limb here but is it possible that Walter has mites? Head shaking as you've described is also a sign of ear/air sac or cere mites. You mentioned that he lacks any visible Trich in the throat now so maybe this is a possibility? Perhaps you might want to treat him with an oral dose of ivomec.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Terri,
> also a sign of ear/air sac or cere mites.


Didn't know there was such a critter but this would fit! Walter has been very itchy about his ears. I assumed it was canker - that stuff is so bad, I figured it could grow anywhere. It didn't occur to me that there might be more than one problem.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!*

Thank you all for your advice and suggestions! It can be very frustrating, since a knowledgeable person would probably know at first glance. You can only work with the observations I think are relevant enough to detail. Birds are so fragile that I've hesitated palpating much, especially in the crop area in case I would push something where it shouldn't go. You are right, I need to do more hands on work to learn what is normal.

I do believe mites is at least the primary problem now. Unfortunately, I just thought that Walter was getting really tame and liked his ears rubbed. Piper also scratches his ears and likes his ears rubbed. (Note to self: A pigeon is not a dog.) Air sac infection could also be an issue, but I would expect him to show more impact to something that serious. They are in courtship phase and he was strutting around this morning like, well, a King pigeon, neck feathers just glowing.

The flight pen only gets a few hours of sun this time of year, so today we made a small, light weight cage to take birds out front for some additional sun, when available (I live just outside of Seattle, so sunny days aren't really common!).

I'll treat for mites and watch closely for any sign of respiratory distress. I will also have the vet do a crop swab to monitor any potential trich regrowth. 
Thanks again and I'm sure that Walter, Grace, Piper, KD, Bliss, and Mieke also appreciate your help!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

I just want you to be aware that I'm only guessing at what could be ailing Walter in conjunction to his canker. He may not have mites but it is also possible. I think if you were to treat him anyways, this would be beneficial. A healthy pigeon is a pigeon completely free of any parasites in or on his body


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maryco, 


This is my firts post here...

I had been confused about how to correctly administer 'Spartrix' and had been putting the half-tablet or quarter-tablet IN about a day's worth of water. Oh well, it seemed to work only so-so, and I am sure would have worked better if I had known.

Anyway, since I do not have anyone to help me, and I do not have the kind of fingernails to pry a Beak open with like some gals have, what product do you recomend for the Trichomoniasis which can be put into their individual small-cup day's worth of water?

I realize now, that for seriously urgent cases, the Spartix would be likely very good if one can get it into their crop, or get them to swallow it from their mouth.

Any recommends as for method, for getting them to swallow the (1/2 or 1/4 tablet of ) Spartrix, or, for getting it into their crop?

Any Pigeon rehabbers or Pigeon caregivers in Las Vegas?

Thanks, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Water-soluble canker treatment*

Ronidazole is a water-soluble canker treatment. The directions are to use 1/2 - 3/4 teaspoon per gallon of water for 3-5 days. You could mix up 1/8 teaspoon in a quart.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Terri,
> I just want you to be aware that I'm only guessing at what could be ailing Walter in conjunction to his canker.


Brad, I appreciate your comment and I did do further research to confirm that mites was an issue. We all have different experiences and I posted my question hoping to draw on that bank to give me a clue to follow. As soon as I read your suggestion, the light bulb went on - it was so obvious, but my mind had been stuck on the canker. I treated all the birds with Moxidectin and no more itchy ears!

I'm still suspicious that Walter might have a low grade respiratory infection, since his breathing becomes audible after a little exercise. I'll discuss this with the vet when we go in for a followup check on the canker on Monday.

Thanks again to all who shared their knowledge!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Follow Up*

Just wanted to post a follow up. The itchy ears seem to have been due to an internal (ear or air sac) mite. External pyrethrin sprays didn't get to them. What worked was a systemic pesticide, Moxidectin, repeated 10 days later. The problem returned after three months so the treatment was repeated in June, and again 10 days later.

Walter's wheezing and shortness of breath may be due to scar tissue and not repairable. Two weeks' test treatment with Itraconazole for Aspergillosis didn't resolve it. Neither did 10 days of Clavamox after throat & fecal swabs showed high E.coli (his mate, Grace, was also treated). When I tried wood shavings on the floor, he really started wheezing (possible allergy). So, for now, I keep the coop as dust-free as possible and do what I can to boost his immune syetem.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*sorry*

About all the problems. Birds can have so mnay things wrong. One of my baby indain fans had some cheesy lump on the outside of his beck so I gave him canker pills for three days and it disappeared. His father had the habit to get canker once a year and he would get treatment and be fine for another year. It is strange dad is black and mom is white. White babies have no problems but black babies have his problem.


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