# red or RR house pigeon babies?



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

I assume both will go grizzle, with a lot of whit eon them since they have white feathers. 

They have not moulted yet. 





I really like the bald headed one on the right, and I think I'm going to keep it. I want to sell the other one.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Also the flash from the camera washed the color out a bit. They are slightly darker in real life.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Chinbunny, First I would not sell off the red one as it may well be carring the gene for directional white, sometimes called molt to white, and is only expressed in the presents of homozyous Recessive red. or its dilute. TheOne example of this is the breed called the Seraphim as young show recessive red but molt out to white after the first molt. I have this in my homers and they do this over two or three molts and even four molts at times. The real challenge is to breed a good solid recessive red bird. Check the shaft of the flights feathers to see if is there any white along the shaft,if thereis then the bird is carring the molt to white gene * GEORGE


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

george simon said:


> *Hi Chinbunny, First I would not sell off the red one as it may well be carring the gene for directional white, sometimes called molt to white, and is only expressed in the presents of homozyous Recessive red. or its dilute. TheOne example of this is the breed called the Seraphim as young show recessive red but molt out to white after the first molt. I have this in my homers and they do this over two or three molts and even four molts at times. The real challenge is to breed a good solid recessive red bird. Check the shaft of the flights feathers to see if is there any white along the shaft,if thereis then the bird is carring the molt to white gene * GEORGE


Thanks I don't have room for both of these birds though. Maybe I should wait till after it moult's. The mom is a red grizzle, and the dad is a blue white flight. This is the first time I have got red grizzled anything out of this pair. Normally I get solid reds, blue grizzles, blue bars, or red white flights. I figured one or both, might get a lot of white on them. The shaft feathers did look light when I handled the bird today. I take it its not a desirable trait? Could I sell it & let the buyer know it might molt to white?


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

george simon said:


> *Hi Chinbunny, First I would not sell off the red one as it may well be carring the gene for directional white, sometimes called molt to white, and is only expressed in the presents of homozyous Recessive red. or its dilute. TheOne example of this is the breed called the Seraphim as young show recessive red but molt out to white after the first molt. I have this in my homers and they do this over two or three molts and even four molts at times. The real challenge is to breed a good solid recessive red bird. Check the shaft of the flights feathers to see if is there any white along the shaft,if thereis then the bird is carring the molt to white gene * GEORGE


Ill check his feathers and get a photo for you tomorrow. I have another pair of house pigeons. The male I got as a 'show bird' from someone(not on here) who ripped me off. is toes twist under on one leg. He is white with stray grey feathers. Could he be a molt to white, or does it only show up with red. The only babies I have from him so far are getting a lot of white feathers on them. So far those babies appear to be healthy.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

mom is the red grizzled bird on this thread. caged with her son, a blue grizzle. the dad can be seen on the first page. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/new-here-43128-2.html?highlight=hungarian+giant+house+pigeons


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

I checked his flights. The shafts are white.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Been reading up on this. the reds that moult to white are prone to eye problems like bull eye right? I'll have to double check. neither of these birds appear to have that.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Anyone else? If my bird was going to molt to white, wouldn't he have bull eyes? this is what I found on it. Its eyes don't look like that. They look normal. http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics7.asp


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I've had some rr homer families that produce birds who's juvenile plumage is red but moult in up to 50% white feathers in shield area and sometimes a little white on their face. These birds get a little whiter with each moult thereafter but never pure white. If two of these "mottle" birds are mated together they'll produce even whiter offspring. I've not seen pure whitegenerated by this gene though, and eye color has remained normal for me.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi TMAAS, In the last 27 years there has been a bird that is a recessive red that turns all white after its first molt. That bird is the Seraphim, if you go to the web site http://seraphimclubinternational.com its explained and it takes 3 different white modifiers to do it, this happens all with the first molt. Please check out this site you will be glad that you did.the Seraphim is truly a beatful bird, also the club is free to join. If you can't get it then google the SERAPHIM CLUB INTERNATIONAL* GEORGE


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

george simon said:


> *Hi TMAAS, In the last 27 years there has been a bird that is a recessive red that turns all white after its first molt. That bird is the Seraphim, if you go to the web site http://seraphinclubinternational.com its explained and it takes 3 different white modifiers to do it, this happens all with the first molt. Please check out this site you will be glad that you did.the Serapmin is truly a beatful bird, also the club is free to join. If you can't get it then google the SERAPHION CLUB INTERNATIONAL* GEORGE


Those are pretty cool. They have the same color eyes my all white house pigeon has. see my other thread about that. So far as I have read the birds who molt to white get 'bull eyes.' Which is a disqualification in house pigeons. The red birds in the picture have normal eyes. I also read that white house pigeons have to have a certain eye color that is not dark. I can't remember without researching the standard right now. 

Since I have never grown out a molt to white bird before, will the eye color change, or stay the same?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

George, I'm still not convinced that the seraphim whitening gene is any different than the one I was referring to, with some modifiers added. If the homers, that I had, had been piebald with color only being expressed on the wing shield, then some of them also would have turned pure white with bull eyes. I've also raised red whiteside tumblers at one time and am quite certain that they are of the same genetic makeup, colorwise, with bronze added. A saddle marked Whiteside tumbler would be pure white also. 

Since the seraphim originated from oriental frills, I should add that I'm currently breeding frill stencil homers and some carry rr, therefore I occasionally raise a rr frill stencil homer. These birds always moult into a confusing splashed/stenciled smeary color. Fs and rr may cause additional whitening when in combination with each other.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Here is a pick of one of my rr fs homers in it's juvenile plumage.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

I talked to some old pigeon breeders at an auction today, and the one guy said rr & red house pigeons are the best colors to get. He also said he'd never heard of one molting to pure white. He said most white birds have bull eyes. Not all, but most. Reading the standard again I was wrong about it being a dq, or fault. its not. Its normal. So, my birds should be ok to sell as long as they meet the standard on color and eye color.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

& the house pigeon I mentions above has dark pearl eyes, not bull like I thought.


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