# Not sure what the problem is...



## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

I took my pigeon Odie out of her cage today to clean it and I noticed she isin't well. I keep her in a nice big rabbit cage and ussually when I open it up she'll fly over and sit up on our air conditioning unit cause it's up high. Today she pretty much fell out of the cage(which sits about 1 1/2 feet above the floor) and was having trouble walking. She can't keep her balance and when she sits down I notice her wings will twitch a little. She can't fly and she just acts weak. I've noticed she hasn't been flying around as much when I let her out lately, but this is the first time anything has really looked wrong. She has the symptoms of PMV including watery poop but she's an indoor bird. She's my only pigeon and she never goes outside. So I don't know how she would have gotten it. I have a vet appointment for first thing tommorow morning but any advice you could give would be great. Thanx Jay


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Moleman, 

Sorry to hear about your Odie Has she laid any eggs recently, does she lay a lot of eggs? She might be lacking in calcium, this could lead to a weakened state. If you have any liquid calcium on hand, you could try offering her some. If she's producing a lot of watery droppings, you will want to watch for dehydration as well. Make sure she's drinking enough and if she's not, you may want to syringe her some pedialyte even, if you are comfortable with giving fluids to her. Of course as well, since she's not feeling well, please keep her warm enough.


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

I'm not sure how often she lays because she just laid for the first time last fall...Impaction did occur to me. After she laid her eggs last fall her poop was really watery but it got a little better....now it's back the way it was. After I take her to the vet tommorow I'll definetly go down to the pet store and get some calcium supplement.


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Ok I just went up and examined her again and I'm almost positive it's eggs....I'm pretty sure I can feel a few up in there. If she's acting this weak does that mean she's impacted?? Or is this normal behavior prior to them laying???


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Moleman11 said:


> Ok I just went up and examined her again and I'm almost positive it's eggs....I'm pretty sure I can feel a few up in there. If she's acting this weak does that mean she's impacted?? Or is this normal behavior prior to them laying???


Hi Jay, 

I'm not sure if you are really feeling the eggs in there or not. I've never been able to feel them but perhaps you can. You wouldn't feel "a few" though, there would really only be one at a time. She might be having a problem laying it though. Keep her VERY warm, set up a heating pad and lay a towel over it. If you know how or are comfortable in doing, you may want to give her a few drops of olive oil down the throat as this can help lubricate things. You could also moisturize her vent with the oil as well a little bit. Let's hope she's not having a problem passing an egg though. 

A hen about to lay will lay down a lot, and get a "hunched" back or "lobster tail" look. Weakness might be a sign of distress. She may be ok, but please do keep a watchful eye over her until you get her to the vet tomorrow. Hopefully an egg will have passed and you'll know come tomorrow that this was what it was.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You better go read this while you're at it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

I'll go fetch a skeletal drawing so that you can see if you can determine what's bone and what might be something else. Here it is:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

You can see the two bones that trail backward and are on either side of the vent. You can feel those in the pigeon's back end and they're a little flexible. If you feel a movable, hardened mass, that can either be an egg or one of the things mentioned in that thread on the ruptured oviduct. It's very difficult to tell what shape they are (oval egg versus irregular). That isn't the thing to come on completely suddenly though.

Pidgey


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Do pigeons normally lay only one egg at a time? The last time Odie layed eggs there were two. She has only layed eggs once since we have had her....so we don't really know whats normal and whats not. We now have her set up with the heating pad...and the drops of olive oil. When I stick my hands in her cage she still bites me, so she still has her spunk...which is a good thing. I don't know if I will be able to sleep tonight.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They normally lay one egg and then another about 44 hours later. They only form one at a time. What kind of vet are you taking her to tomorrow? Avian?

Pidgey


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Well, he does everything really....including birds and reptiles. He's a good vet, and the only one in our town that deals with exotics. He has a bird of his own, that was bound with eggs. I'm not sure what exactly he did to fix it, but he did fix it. This all coming from my mom....who takes better care of her animals than she did her children....lol. If he isn't able to figure out what is going on, I think at that point he would refer us to U of W.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Moleman11,

In addition to some of the other good information that you've received on egg binding, here are a couple of threads for you on eggbinding and what you can do to help the situation:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9262&highlight=steam+vent

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8929&highlight=steam+vent

Also, I was curious what symptoms you were concerned about that seemed to resemble PMV? 

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi Moleman,

Definitely sounds like an egg-related problem. Lack of calcium can cause egg-laying paralysis, the condition you describe where she is unable to fly. But it's normal for hens to get watery droppings around the time they lay. Do you reguarly give Odie pigeon grit? Even if you do, I was also thinking that since she is an indoor bird, she may lack the Vitamin D necessary to absorb it, even if she has grit available to her. 

Warmth and a little calcium syrup or Tums may help her until you can get her to the vet. Best of luck.


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

The symptoms that made me think maybe PMV was the watery poop, trembling wings unable to fly and not being able to keep her balance. But I'm almost positive now that it's egg related. 


> Warmth and a little calcium syrup or Tums may help her until you can get her to the vet.


Birdsmom how do I give her Tums??? Other then warmth thats really all I can give her tonight!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Moleman11 said:


> how do I give her Tums??? Other then warmth thats really all I can give her tonight!


Hi Jay, 

You would dissolve one plain, unflavoured (preferably) tums in a small glass of water and syringe a few mls into her. 

Other than heat, the olive oil, and some calcium, there isn't really a lot you can do for a hen having laying difficulties. She might be fine though so try not to panic yet. 

keep us posted,


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Well I just got back from the vets and there aren't any eggs. She has a little bit of a respiratory infection so he put her on baytril. I opted not to test for something viral because she's an indoor only bird so the chances of that are very slim....besides I wouldn't be able to do anything much different then keep her comfortable which is what I'm already doing. 

I asked him about calcium deffiency because she is an indoor only bird and he said that's possibly whats causing her to be so weak. So now I feel awful cause part of this is probably my fault. I actually just found out a few days ago that glass filters all UV out of sunlight...I always thought she was getting sunlight cause it shines through the window into her cage most of the morning. At least now I know and I can fix it...I just hope she's gonna be ok....


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jay, 

Thanks for the update on Odie. Well, at least you have some meds now to try and see if that helps with the possible respiratory problem. 

Pick yourself up a good avian multivitamin that contains high levels of vitamin D3 and get some good calcium grit such as crushed oyster shell. You could also grind up a cuttle bone and offer this to her. Get yourself some liquid calcium as well to have on hand in emergencies.

Good nutrition, vitamins, probiotics, ACV (apple cider vinegar) and garlic should all be considered after you're done with the baytril. It's been suggested here however, that when giving baytril, you shouldn't offer any grit at all because it interferes with the medication.

Best wishes and keep us updated on her,


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So what were you feeling in the back end? The bones in the picture?

Pidgey


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Yeah I think so....everythings normal down there. I just felt something and thought it was an egg...inexperience + worry = jumping to conclusions! lol

I did want to ask what the best types of multi-vitamins are. I know there are the types that you add to their water and then the kind you give directly to the bird. Is there one of these that are preffered?? I always have oyster shell grit in her cage with her so I'm pretty sure her calcium intake is fine...but her vitamin d-3 level is probably so low that her body can't absorb the calcium. If there is a type of multi-vitamin that is the best please let me know.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Nekton-T for pigeons and doves is an excellent brand...that's the one I use and it's got a lot of vitamin D3. It's got all the important vitamins specifically for pigeons needs as well as quite a few minerals.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Moleman11 said:


> She's my only pigeon and she never goes outside. So I don't know how she would have gotten it. I have a vet appointment for first thing tommorow morning but any advice you could give would be great. Thanx Jay



I'm sorry to hear about Odie, but glad she is not "egg bound"

Ditto on the good nutrition, and an hour a day in sunlight & fresh air will do her a world of good. Pigeons need good ventilation and air circulation, so a small aviary outside would be beneficial.

Can you indulge her, and perhaps move her cage to a more cozy place up high, when she is indoors? Pigeons are less stressed and happy if they can be up a bit high. Also make sure to cover her cage, if there are any any air drafts.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Glad to hear she isn't egg-bound. The vitamins Brad recommended sound good. His pigeons live inside too, so he's a good one to advise you on nutrition for indoor pigeons.

I haven't heard of pulling grit when using Baytril. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was only an issue with the tetracycline group of antibiotics. I'd hate to see Odie deprived of calcium if in fact she's calcium deficient. Please double check this with your vet if you're not sure.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, even that one's come up here before. Check this post later and I'll see if I can go find the reference, but, yes, fluoroquinolones are affected by minerals.

Yep, this one's good enough:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=88686&postcount=24

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Ok, I stand corrected. It's just that I've never had a vet tell me to pull grit when they are Baytril, nor does it say so in any of my pigeon books. Thanks for the info.


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Well, Odie is getting worse. We are giving her the antibiotic and also tube feeding her with baby bird food and hydrating her. Today she can't sand at all. If she falls over she's not able to get herself back up. She did eat some birdseen and drank some water on her own last night. She is very alert and still bites me when I stick my hands in her cage. We have her set up inside a towel ring so that while we are gone she won't fall over and not be able to get herself back up. We just want her to be as comfortable as possible. We are hoping that today we will see signs of the antibotic kicking in. It usually takes a couple of days before it really starts to work. We are doing everything we can.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jay, 

I'm sorry to hear that Odie has gotten worse It should take a day or two before the antibiotic kicks in and you start to see improvement. Is the main problem her balancing? Is she twisted her head in odd positions? Did you get some calcium into her?

Can you give us more background on Odie? How old is she, does she go outside, do you have any other pets/birds, anything else you might think is relevant?


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

We are giving her multi-vitamin supplements in all of her food and water. Her main problem is balancing. But it seems to be caused by weakness, not coordination. It's almost like her legs are paralized. She has trouble flapping her wings also. She is 1 1/2 years old and is an inside only bird. She is not in direct contact whatsoever with other birds. We have 2 parakeets but the closest Odie gets to them is when she flies over and sits near their cage. But she isin't in direct contact with them, their food or water, or there droppings. She always has oyster shell grit available to her for calcium but I thought maybe a lack of vitamin D3 was causing her to be unable to absorb that calcium. But could a calcium/vitamin defficiency cause her to get this bad this fast??? 

She definetly has a respiratory infection. She is open beak breathing, and breathing pretty hard. Could that infection be whats causing her weakness?? She has lost weight(I think from lack of eating, when I cleaned out her cage monday I noticed quite a lot of bird seed in the bottom of her cage, almost like she was just throwing it out of her bowl) but we are tube feeding her baby bird food to try to get some weight on her. She does still attempt to eat and drink on her own but not as much as she should. We're just keeping our fingers crossed.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To me, it sounds like an internal infection and possibly of the kidneys. You've already read that article that I wrote about a ruptured oviduct. You're bird is proceeding in a similar manner but it certainly doesn't have to be the same cause. You might very well utilize a dual antibiotic strategy--Baytril and Keflex in case it's an anaerobe. You'll need to ask your vet about getting the Keflex (Cephalexin). Simply put, the spectrum of activity for Baytril doesn't include a few anaerobes that Keflex would get.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Moleman11 said:


> She definetly has a respiratory infection. She is open beak breathing, and breathing pretty hard. Could that infection be whats causing her weakness??


Hi Jay, 

Are there any other anomolies going on with the heavy breathing...watery eyes, mucous or watery discharge coming from the nostrils? Open her beak and see if there is any mucous in there as well. Any odd sounds when she breathes?

I don't want to scare you, but there is a disease called psittacosis that parrot-type birds can spread to pigeons. It's very contagious and easily transmitted without direct contact. I'm not sure if birds can be healthy carriers of it though. 

This is only a thought, not a diagnosis so please don't panic.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Baytril is supposed to reduce the symptoms of Chlamydiosis (Psittacosis/Ornithosis) although it is not thought to clear the carrier state (Doxycycline for 45 days is the generally accepted treatment for that). I say that because if it's what Brad is suggesting, the Baytril should relieve the symptoms while not really quite curing the bird.

Pidgey


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Odie doesn't have any of the other symptoms that you mentioned. I am happy to say that this morning she looks a little better. It's apparent that she is getting some of her strenght back. Although she is not able to stand yet, she was flapping her wings as if she where flying. I was sooooo happy to see that. She has much more of her spunk back. Even though Odie is an inside bird and around humans all the time, she's still "cranky" and "firery". If she wants to visit, she comes to us. If we want to visit, she makes that sound and bites us.....she has a great personality  We can see a little of that personality this morning, which is great. I am going to call the vet today and see if he will give me some Keflex also....it surely couldn't hurt. I was wondering, since she hasn't been able to move around, her underside is getting a little dirty from her going potty...I have wiped it off with a damp rag. Can I let her set in some warm water for a couple of minutes, or would it be to soon for something like that? 

Jays wife, Jodie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jodie, 

I'm glad to hear there is some improvement with Odie today. That must be a big relief and perhaps the antibiotics are kicking in now. 

Yes, you could set her in some warm water to wash her vent off a bit, just make sure she's kept very warm afterwards. You don't want her getting a chill now. 

Please keep us updated.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I would probably try to get some Keflex but I wouldn't want them to mix it up (sometimes it comes as a bunch of powder in a pink bottle that you mix water in and keep it in the refrigerator while you're dosing it out) unless you see that the Baytril isn't getting it. If she's feeling better, then I would wait to add another antibiotic. I'd get it because we're coming up on a holiday weekend.

You can make a towel nest in such a way as to have the bird settled in a hollow and can make an extra hollowed hollow for the back end. You can put folded up tissue or paper towels under the back end and change them every couple of hours or as needed. That's what I did with Winter for the three weeks that she was unable to stand. I'd hold the water for her every time I changed the papers and kept the feed within pecking distance at all times.

Pidgey


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

We are very relieved to see that she is acting more lively. Yesterday morning when we check on her, we actually thought she had died. I can't believe she got so bad so fast. I know she's not out of the woods yet, but it's certainly good to see that she is acting more like herself. I do have another question....I'm not sure how long she will not be able to stand.....but will she automatically be able to stand again? That probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I know what I am trying to say, but am not sure how to word it...lol. With her being sick and not able to support her weight at all for a few days....with it be a process for her to be able to stand again.....or will it just come back to her. Make sense?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Winter didn't seem to have any strength in her legs for three weeks. I could pick her up and barely tell that she could move them, but just no strength. There is a picture of a pigeon on here somewhere that suffered PMV and never managed to quite stand up right again. However, he learned to compensate.

Pidgey


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Moleman11 said:


> We are very relieved to see that she is acting more lively. Yesterday morning when we check on her, we actually thought she had died. I can't believe she got so bad so fast. I know she's not out of the woods yet, but it's certainly good to see that she is acting more like herself. I do have another question....I'm not sure how long she will not be able to stand.....but will she automatically be able to stand again? That probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I know what I am trying to say, but am not sure how to word it...lol. With her being sick and not able to support her weight at all for a few days....with it be a process for her to be able to stand again.....or will it just come back to her. Make sense?


Hi Jay, In your first post you spoke of an air conditioning unit.I believe the bird is in a direct draft from this air conditioner.MOVE THE CAGE away from any draft. A bird that is housed indoors should be kept out of any draft as a can be deadly. I hope that its not to late.GEORGE SIMON


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

george simon said:


> Hi Jay, In your first post you spoke of an air conditioning unit.I believe the bird is in a direct draft from this air conditioner.MOVE THE CAGE away from any draft. A bird that is housed indoors should be kept out of any draft as a can be deadly. GEORGE SIMON




Hi Jay,

This was my concern also, and NOTED on post # 19

It is always a good idea to check any birds environment and see if there was a probablility that it may have contributed to whatever the bird has, or lowering its resistance to allow the bird to get sick.


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Oh sorry....I should have mentioned....the air conditioning unit is not in working condition. We live in an older house, and it was actually built right into the wall, so the front with the contols and such still stick out. He likes to sit up there on the edge of it because it's high. We actually still have our heat running because it's still chilly where we live. Our parakeets are hanging by the air conditioner, but like I said, it's not in working condition. When we first rescued Odie, we came to this forum to find out any information we could to make sure that we could provide the safest and healthiest life possible. One of the first pieces of info we read was to not put our birds in such places as in front of an air conditioner....or to burn candles or use air fresheners around them. Odies environment is great, except for the fact that shes not recieving any direct sunlight. As soon as we know she's going to pull through this, we are going to build her a pen outside so that she can go out there a few times a week. We thought that the sunlight she recieved through the window was enough, but little did we know until a few days ago that the window filters out the things that she needs to be healty. 

We feel bad enough as it is because she's sick, because we know she wasn't getting the Vit D3 she needed to process her calcium....I guess that one post made us feel even worse. I mean we appreciate any help or suggestions...thats why we are here.....but....I dunno


Sooo....with all that being said, I woke up this morning to Odie eating bird seed! It's been a few days since she's eaten anything on her own. She looks even better today. She doesn't coo though....or whatever that sound is called. I'm sure that will come back in time. She was in a different spot from where I had placed her before bed last night...which means she had the strength to move around. Her legs are still very week...but she is improving. Pigeonpal, I let her sit in some warm water for a couple of minutes to wash her bum....she seemed to like that. We placed her back on the heating pad(not directly of course, we put something over it) to make sure she didn't get chilled. And Pidgey, I took your advice with the towel ring, and thats working out good too. Things are looking better!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Moleman11,

Have you noticed any unusual odor to her poops, and did the vet run a fecal float on Odie's poops? I'm assuming that the inside of the mouth is pink and clear? While the bird is responding to the Baytril, there could also be another condition there as well.

Also, the vitamins that you're giving along w/the antibiotic have no calcium in it, correct?

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi Jay,

I'm glad to hear she is improving. It sounds as though she has more than one thing going on and it may take awhile for her to regain her full strength. An outdoor pen where she can enjoy fresh air and sunshine part of the day once it warms up would be ideal.


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

No, I haven't noticed an odor at all in her poops. They are green and white and not as runny as they have been. I just looked at the inside of her mouth and it is pink and clear. I also checked the multi-vitamins that we are giving her and there's no calcium in it. It has been suggested that the calcium could make the baytril not as effective. We are taking her into the vet again on monday....so I guess we will just keep doing what we are doing until then sense she is improving. I thought by now she would be better...but I guess thats unrealistic of me to think.....guess it was wishful thinking. That noise that pigeons make....I'm not sure what it's called.....but is that usually something they stop doing when they are sick? She used to do it whenever we went near her cage....she has stopped. Like I said before....she is bitting me and trying to pull my finger off......so I know she's getting some of her "attitude" back


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moleman11 said:


> No, I haven't noticed an odor at all in her poops. They are green and white and not as runny as they have been. I just looked at the inside of her mouth and it is pink and clear. I also checked the multi-vitamins that we are giving her and there's no calcium in it. It has been suggested that the calcium could make the baytril not as effective. We are taking her into the vet again on monday....so I guess we will just keep doing what we are doing until then sense she is improving. I thought by now she would be better...but I guess thats unrealistic of me to think.....guess it was wishful thinking. That noise that pigeons make....I'm not sure what it's called.....but is that usually something they stop doing when they are sick? She used to do it whenever we went near her cage....she has stopped. Like I said before....she is bitting me and trying to pull my finger off......so I know she's getting some of her "attitude" back


Hi Jay, 

Yes, it's best to discontinue calcium w/Baytril, so I wanted to check that the multivitamin didn't also have minerals, specifically calcium in it. Good that her mouth is clear and poops aren't smelly. Also, good that you are seeing the urates in the poop. Wish they were more of a brown/green, but that could also be diet. If you haven't had a fecal float done, it would probably be a good idea. I don't remember you mentioning if checked for worms or coccidiosis.

It depends on the meaning behind the sound she was making. If she was grunting, in a territorial way, then it could mean that she is realizing that you are helping her and accepting that, so not so territorial over cage visits. They tend to think of their cages as their roost and get territorial. Flapping the wings in place/helicoptering is a good sign and hopefully in time she will feel better and better. Please keep us posted on your vet visit.

fp


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

Just a quick update...Odie is a little better today. She seems to be getting a little better each day. Today she spend a couple of hours preening....she obviously felt like she needed to get herself looking pretty again...lol. Today is the first day I have heard her do that sound in over a week. My mom went over by her cage to see how she was doing, and Odie started doing it. It definitely wasn't as loud as she usually does....but she did it! She is moving herself around in her cage. She gets up on her feet now, but she has to do it with the help of her wings still. I really feel like she is going to pull through this....and I am soooo thrilled. Someone once said to me that pigeons are winged rats.....well, I love my pigeon....and my rat.....so there! lol I will send another update after the vet appointment tomorrow. I hope you all had a happy Easter, and I want to thank all of you for your help and support


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jay & Jodie, 

I'm relieved and happy to hear that there is more improvement in Odie. It's such a worry when they are sick Please do let us know how your vet visit goes in the morning and continue to post updates. 

Hopefully, by the end of the week, she'll be back to her old self!


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

It's been awhile since we have been on to update about Odie. We are happy to say that she has recovered from whatever it was she had. She is still not able to fly, but that will come with time. She is back to her old cranky self! We have changed her diet, mixing our own food rather than buying the premixed stuff we used to get at the pet store. We are not going to build her and outdoor enclosure so she can get what she needs from the sun. We apprieciate all the help and advice we've received. You were all helpful not only to Odie, but to us. Thanks again


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

oops, I meant we ARE going to build her an outdoor enclosure....lol


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi Jay,

Thank you for the update. I'm so glad to hear Odie is recovering. I'm sure she will enjoy the outdoor enclosure. We are finally getting sunshine after six weeks of rain and my pigeons can't seem to get enough of it! Every day they lie in the sun with their wings outstretched.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad to hear Odie is better and that she will be able to sunbathe in the future.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is great news, Jay. Thank you for letting us know.

Reti


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## Moleman11 (Nov 20, 2004)

She can fly!!!!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Moleman11 said:


> She can fly!!!!



CONGRATLATIONS. You did a great job nursing her back to health,

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Jay, that's great news. I'm so glad she has recovered.


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