# Feral Scissor beak



## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I'd been trying to catch this little sweety for days. Unable to eat unless the food is in a deep dish, he's been eating the cat kibble I have outside in a heated dish. The cat kibble is for the feral cats. I've struck an agreement with the feral cats around here... and for the most part, they comply. I feed them cat kibble and heated canned cat food and they don't go after my birds. 

Anyway... I managed to capture the pigeon today and it might be that the scissor beak is from an unjury or the beak grew at different rates as the lower beak seams twisted. He was able to get a full feeding while holding him to a deep dish with a good breeding mix feed, but a number of times the kernal would roll out the gap in his beak. He doesn't seem to show any signs of canker from my initial examination. Other than the problems associated with not being able to get food, he seems in pretty good shape.

I'm not sure if you can see enough from these shots, so let me know if you need another angle. Just click on the pic and it'll take you to the series of pictures.


Thoughts... suggestions?

Thanks, as always...

Julianne


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

Julianne,
No pictures were attached. They may be too large for the site to accommodate.
I hope you have a home for this bird because he's not releasable. The upper beak will eventually overgrow to a point that he won't be able to eat. He's going to need periodic trimming. Using the deep dish is an excellent idea for these scissor beak problems.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

The pics might indeed be too large. Let me see what I can do.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Okay... resized them. Hope it works correctly this time.



If he's not going to be releasable, I will need to find him a good home. I don't believe any living thing should spend their life in a cage.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

Julianne,
No pictures.
You raise a moral and ethical dilemma. Here, we try to take in an unreleasable bird and want him to have a good quality of life when the only life he knows or wants is the outside world with his flock and freedom. The only standards we have are the ones we use to judge ourselves by and it's completely wrong to apply the same standards to a bird because he has different ones. No bird should be caged. The best we can do is put him into a loft with other birds and what if we can't find a place like that for him? I don't know the answer to this but it does haunt one, doesn't it?


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I don't know why the pics aren't showing.





Yes, it is an issue that can spark intense controversy... not something I am trying to do. For me it is "quality of life". Would I want to have a long life if that meant spending it in a room the size of my washroom? No... but what is the alternative? 

For me, in my situation... I try to help those critters that are sick and injured. I have a double (heated) garage that is full of rehabs that will be released in the Spring. I have two PMV pigeons in my home office and two injured pigeons (including the one with this scissored beak) in my washroom. Those are the only two rooms I have that have doors so the cats cannot get in. I do know that I wouldn't keep a healthy pigeon here (even if it did need to have his beak trimmed regularly) because that would mean that he would be in a constant risk situation of eventually catching an illness that one of my sick pigeons (rehabs) has.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, one thing you might try with this little guy is physical therapy. According to the vet books, it is possible to slowly reshape a scissorbeak by spending some time every day tweaking it into the right position. Might take weeks but I guess you've got some time, huh? It's one of those deals where you give it a little several times per day. There is another way that involves gluing on a straightening apparatus. On this bird, it would mean gluing a wire on the left side of the beak part way out that will keep the lower beak pushed over. They really do things like that. Just something to consider.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

I see the picture now.....It's nasty.
I think I see a rip in the lower beak on his left side towards the base. It could be a shadow but if there is some opening there from the injury he sustained, there may be a band of scarred ligament tissue and it will be a band. If you see something like that inside, a vet could cut the band which is pulling the beak to the left. It might help to snap the beak back into place a bit. I could be dreaming with what I think I see.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Splitbeak*

Hello Jules,

Hard to tell from the photos which beak is out of line the most: is the upper or the lower or both beaks bilaterally assymetric?

Photo #5 seems to be the one closest to showing. 

The eye pupils in the photo show as black ellipses, but not quite equal in size, and therefore the pigeon is not looking quite straght at the camera.

If one (not in the actual presence of the pigeon) had a downloaded photo prin-out showing the head (skull) positioned so that a straight line could be drawn on a print-out representing the midline of the skull (on a line from the middle of the beak to the spine), one could use a straight-edge of a ruler to determine whether the upper or lower beak had the major defect.

At any rate, the pigeon seems to have survived in the wild so far. I watched a feral I called Splitbeak survive (but not thrive, which is why I was able to catch her) for months. I captured her and removed a large accumulation of poor-diet-caused-diarrhetic poop from her keel, then (from August until December 6, 2005 when she disappeared) made sure she had a deep jar of good seeds to eat from. 

Larry


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

Hi Larry,
A bird with a scissored beak can have complications beyond the obvious difficulty it has in eating. Preening is vital to a bird's health. If the bird can't preen properly, it can't spread the oil coming from the gland at the base of the tail to the rest of the body. That means a lot of the insulation capacity that the bird needs, can be lost. The feathers will not be in tip top condition and the bird will be open to chilling. I don't know if this particular bird can preen properly but I just wanted to point this out. Even if the bird can eat sufficiently, his life is still in danger.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Okay... I've examined and tried to move her beak into position but the two don't align. So... what's the best approach for filing? Can the lower be filed?

I have more questions... but I'll post this first.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jules said:


> Okay... I've examined and tried to move her beak into position but the two don't align. *So... what's the best approach for filing?* Can the lower be filed?
> 
> I have more questions... but I'll post this first.


I believe some have used a nail file/emery board. 

Cindy


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Just so you're aware.. I don't have someone to hold her... it's just me. I don't use dremel tools or whatever there are called. I don't have a problem attempting filing (if advised that this is something I should attempt). I've read some of the posts on this but I could use I tad more instruction.. if anyone could sort of walk me through it, I'd appreciate it.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I can handle so many things...except bugs. Ewwww...I'm covered. Yuck! I know...silly me. Anyway...I've just de-bugged her.. now I have to de-bug me.
*grin*


Julianne


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Jules,

I usually have to do the beak trims single handed.

If the tip of the beak is transparent then you can see where the blood supply ends and trim it with nail clippers. If the beak is opaque then thrim a little bit of the top beak at a time, checking each time to ensure that there is not even a smear of blood 

Have something like cornflower available in case there is a bleed.

Once you have trimmed it you can use a nail file to smooth the edges.

It is best to leave the lower beak alone.

My Piglet has a completely scissored beak, he eats, preens and has a mate. I don't even have to trim him all that often.

I will find a photo and upload it so you can compare.

Added: this is a link to a thread with Piglet's photo: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=18422&referrerid=560

BTW, the most important thing that I have learnt about pigeons is that they will usually adapt to captivity and to handicap. I had a pigeon that even my vet thought should be euthanased because of this broken beak. It took him a while but he is able to eat preen and go through the mating rituals. That is why I always give them a chance, however pessimistic the outlook.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The physical therapy deal takes a lot of time--it ain't done in a day. It's one of those deals where you're not even going to see results from day to day, kinda' like watching a kid grow up. You just have faith and keep at it. And, of course, it can be done at the same time that you're doing the other so there's no conflict or choice to be made.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

Julianne,
You don't want to touch the lower beak unless you're willing to take the bird to a vet and have the tongue surgically shortened. (It's been done.) All you can do is shorten the upper beak to try and get it as close as possible to the length of the damaged lower beak. The beak will remain scissored but his ability to preen and pick up food will improve over time. There is a vessel that runs almost the full length of the beak so I don't recommend you use a dremel. When you file, you're going to file down to a point where you see the soft tissue of the beak exposed. Beyond that point it will begin to bleed so You'll have to wait until the tissue dries back a bit before filing again.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Dremel (TM) tools, and preening with a split beak*

Hello *Jules* and others,

*Instead of adding a new post, I will make an insertion to this post: I was composing this post before and during the time Pidgeonperson posted, so my post followed his. I mention Dremel tools in this post, but he recommends not using them, so use your newly-purchased Dremels or whatever on something other than a pigeon beak. Maybe craft some small wooden clogs for your pigeons to wear? Ha. - Larry).*

Dremel is a brand name for a small hand-held grinder, along with its accessories. I have been using a Dremel tool since the 1970s.

There are a lot of knock-off, cheaper versions from China (availableat least in Germany. I didn't actively _look_, so therefore didn't _notice_, if there were made-in-China version at Home Depot when I was in Texas last August, but I suspect there are. Electric motors are not high-tech, so a cheaper version from China should be acceptable for occasional use. Handicraft users who make a living from their products should probably opt for Dremel. Just my thoughts. 

You can roughly visualize what a Dremel tool does if you have ever seen (electric motor) fingernail or manicure sets shown in many catalogs. 

I have used a tungsten carbide grinding bit (resembles a rounded-off ballpoint pen refill in appearance) for cutting through one inch by one inch cross sections of automobile flywheels, at high speed (15-20,000 r.p.m.). The bit would grab at and cut through the hardest netal, but if it touched my finger it would simply slip and slowly polish the callus or thick skin. In other words, the skin was undamaged and not cut at such high speeds. Fingernails (and beaks) could be very easily shaped. 

The advantage of using such a tool: you can do very precise work, since you are merely touching or tapping or holding the grinding bit to the surface to be worked. 

The disadvantages: 
(1) if the whine frightens the bird. I have no experience there. Others on PT do, I think. 
(2) if the weight of the tool is uncomfortable. It's a matter of dexterity, strength, control. There are flexible shafts one can use between a bench-supported or bench-hung motor, and a smaller hand-held bit holder. Sometimes at hardware stores there are videos demonstrating use of the Dremels. Many people I know own and use them. 
As an example of scale in motorizd grinders and drills drom small to larger, you have dental tools, surgeon's tools, the jeweler's tools, the handicrafter's and do-it-yourselfer's and hobbyist's tool (where Dremel comes in), and then on to larger grinders for car work, etc.
Where I fit in this range: I wouldn't be able to make a living as a micro-surgeon or watchmaker, but I couldn't do without my Dremel! Good also for rust removal, polishing, and so on. 

You might find a variable-speed Dremel-type grinder a very practical tool when doing the beak (if the noise doesn't bother the pigeon). My opinion, again, untested. 

*Pigeonperson*,

Good point to bring up about preening. 

I was already aware of it, from my experience of watching *Splitbeak*. I've written a number of long posts about her earlier in PT, so don't want to re-type everything, and will be brief (am I ever brief?). But since you mentioned it, I thought about something unusual I hadn't mentioned before in PT. 

Splitbeak couldn't clean the accumulated poop from diarrhea caused by poor nutrition, off her feathers. feathers were ingrown and imbedded and breaking off from a 50-gram two-ounce golfball-sized mass adhering to her lower keel and vent. The mass was more like hard sugar candy than like egg-carton pulp. Her legs hit against the mass when she walked with short steps. 

She could get seeds by laying her head sideways on the ground to pick up a seed, if she were quicker than the other pigeons. She had a nub left to her upper beak, so she could do limited preeniing, pull some feathers (but some had to fall out on their own), and pick up some larger bread crumbs.

I experimented to see what she could eat, but couldn't effectively feed her because of a ban on pigeon feeding here, with plenty of busy-bodies and threat of unaffordable, stiff fines to enforce it. 

Eventually she was weak enough for me to grab her from under a melee of thirty or forty pigeons between me and a large tree during a risky public feeding. (I was immediately threatened with the police by the person from the neighboring church, which now has pigeon spikes covering the war-damaged arches and rooflines). 

I removed the poop in a 45-minute communal shower, which scared her immensely. She recovered for a week in our apartment, then flew out, paired with an amorous male waiting outside for her for several days, then she made it to her home square a couple of miles away a month later. I surreptitiously fed her out of deep seed jar, and it was fun arranging rendeszvous and having her eat as many large seeds as possible before the inevitable discovery by other healthy pigeons, whom I couldn't risk feedng. 

The thing I think I have not previously mentioned in PT was that one day I thought some of her feathers were disintegrating: she showed a lot of bone-white spiky feather shafts on her upper back. Even with a pair of cheap binoculars a few meters away, I could not tell for sure what was going on. I thought maybe she was losing feather vanes because of former inadequate nutrition. I turns out that because of improved nutrition from my feeding her, she suddenly had a lot of feathers grow out quickly on her upper wings towards the back, and they were not opening up because that was one area she could not reach with her limited beak, and she couldn't scratch it with her claws. 

The hook on the upper beak plays some role in handling the vanes on the opposite side of the grasped feather quill also, I think (but do not know this for sure). Any more light you can shed on feather-handling would be appreciated. I have been closely observing pigeons only since May 2004, when we rescued two baby pigeons a few days old, from the nest in a balcony large flower pot someone set on the street. 



Larry


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

Hi Larry,
There isn't much I can add to your descriptions but your point about the hooked portion of the tip of the beak being used to grab onto feathers is an excellent one. Your bird starting moulting and growing in good feathers is directly due to her finally getting some decent nutrition from you but that's a no brainer. She wouldn't have been able to grab seed unless it came out of a deep dish.

The only other thing I can say is that I'm very suspicious when droppings adhere to the butt. Sure, it could have been the bird's inability to preen or that she was living in a pretty dirty area but it could also be an indication of kidney disease. We'll never know the answer to that but it's something to consider when seeing a bird with that condition.

I love the original dremel tool and like you, have been using it for many years. The reason I don't think a dremel is good to for me to trim with is that depending on what kind of attachment is on it and the speed you set for the dremel, it could cut through lightening fast and before you know it, a bad bleed starts up. What's the best attachment and what's the correct speed? I don't want to experiment with a bird so I use an emery board. On the other hand, a qualified vet will use a dremel-like tool to trim plus, while under anesthesia, an electocautery will control bleeding.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Hello *Jules* and others,
> 
> *I was composing this post before and during the time Pidgeonperson posted, so my post followed his. I mention Dremel tools in this post, but he recommends not using them, so use your newly-purchased Dremels or whatever on something other than a pigeon beak. Maybe craft some small wooden clogs for your pigeons to wear*? Ha. - Larry).
> 
> Larry


 That's great Larry. 

Speaking of wooden clogs, a dremel is good for trimming their toe nails.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Okay you guys... you're making me feel very blonde. (And I am naturally so I can say these things - *grin*.)

If you noted in shot Scissor Beak -4 you can see how the lower mandible has been worn away from the rubbing of the upper.

What is my goal? I'm sorry if I sound lame...but do I want to try and match the upper & lower... by filing some of the sides of the upper... or do I just file the tip of the upper... and how much. Even if it takes days... I like to have a goal in mind. I've never attempted this. A friend takes her parrot to have her beak trimmed ...but she drops her off and picks her up at the end of the day. She could offer no real assistance other than the vet knows what he's doing.

But I sure don't.

The lower mandible is somewhat "loose". It's off center... and over on the left side.

I guess what I am trying to say: If I don't know what I'm supposed to end up achieving... I'm never going to get there.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

Julianne,
Among other posts, please read mine which is post number 17. Your goal is very nominal; to just try to reduce the upper beak so it approximates the length of the lower beak. Just work with the tip. The beak is going to remain scissored. 
Please go back and read posts 16-current. It will give you a better idea of what's involved and what you are trying to do. There's plenty of time before you start anything because this bird is not going anywhere. Watch out for bleeding. If you get to that point, stop for the meanwhile. Again, the damage has already been done so waiting a few days to do anything will be meaningless. Go back and read the posts.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thanks. 

It's just been "one of those days" where I couldn't see the forest for the trees.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

Then don't do anything today. Believe me, the problem will still be there tomorrow.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jules, if you do attempt the beak filing keep a container of plain flour nearby "just in case" the beak starts bleeding. Dab a little on the spot and apply pressure for a bit and it should stop. A styptic powder also works well.


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