# Found baby pigeons



## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

Hi everybody - newbie here and I am sooo happy to have found your site - thank you thank you thank you  

I'm in the UK. We've always had a pair of wood pigeons around our garden, and this year they nested in a big tree. On Friday morning we found their babies on the floor by our shed. These are not tiny babies - they have some feathers, but obviously can't fly (I just saw your chart and they look maybe 14/15 and 17/18 days old). I had to move them, even though I wasn't sure I should, because there are loads of cats round us and they wouldn't have survived the night (left them all day Friday and they didn't move). We didn't want to take them to a shelter, because their mum and dad are still around, so they're now in my guinea pig's run with a pet carrier containing hay for at going into at night. 

They wouldn't/couldn't eat by themselves at all over the weekend, so I fed them baby food and water with Avipro in (it's a pre/probiotic that I have for rabbit emergencies) through a syringe. Yesterday I got them eating tinned sweetcorn and ground up birdseed, fat ball, rice and peanuts, by opening their beaks and popping it in, and by last night the bigger one was trying to pick it up himself, which is great (and, I thought, amazing progress).

The thing is, that baby seems much older/more developed than the other, and is perching on a log, and preening his little feathers, but the other is smaller and would rather stay inside the carrier. I am sooo worried about the little one and wondered if anybody has any thoughts? Is he just behind because he's younger and got less food all along? He is VERY light compared with the other one. Is he likely to survive or does one normally die? (please no)  This morning his poo was bright green (I just read here that means hunger - true?), but he seemed really happy bolting down everything I popped into his little beak  Do you think his chances good, or bad? What else should or could I do for my new friends  

I am sorry I have so many questions, but I've never done anything with baby pigeons before so am totally lacking in confidence - any thoughts or advice you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Wendy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Wendy,

For someone that has never had to care for a pigeon you are doing amazingly well.

Was his poop runny and green or was that just a colour change? The colour could vary according to the food they eat, or it could be a bacterial infection or bile as a result of underfeeding. How much and how often are you feeding them?

Avipro is good. I am not certain about rice though! And it is best to use defrosted sweetcorn because of the additives in the tinned stuff.

What you could get is some chick starter crumbs, soak them in warm water for half an hour and serve luke warm. You can feed this by syringe (you will have to liquidise and sieve), or roll into pellets. That keeps for a few days in the fridge. CeeDee egg food is also good, they thrive on that.

As for their size, can you weigh them and see what the difference is? It could be because one hatched earlier than the other and then was weaker. 

As far as I know it is not the norm for only one of two wood pigeon chicks to survive.

This is a link to a thread started by another novice wood pigeon rescuer, I thought that her experiences would be of interest to you. She did a wonderful job and the pigeon is with me now, but far too tame to release. He loves landing on human heads.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10531&referrerid=560


BTW, is there any possibility of reconstructing their nest so that the parents take over? (I assume it collapsed!) And where are you?

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I also found someone that is raising another pair of baby wood pigeons on another forum. KarenJ, I think she is in London:

http://pet-rescue.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=17374&hl=

Cynthia


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I also found someone that is raising another pair of baby wood pigeons on another forum. KarenJ, I think she is in London:
> 
> http://pet-rescue.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=17374&hl=
> 
> Cynthia


Cynthia has discovered that Karen works at London Wildcare ( where I take my pidgies). I actually know Karen and she has a soft spot for pigeons - its also an interesting link to look at with another pigeon"nut"!!  

Tania xx


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## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

Hi Cynthia and Tania,

Thank you for replying and for the really helpful info and links - I am still so relieved to have found the site  

Cynthia - I actually read your response before leaving work, but didn't get round to the link because I thought "chick starter crumbs - what are they?" so I did a search, ordered some on-line, got interupted by a colleague (how DARE they - don't they know I have more important things to do than WORK just now???) and hey presto, it was time for the bell - zoooom for pigeon feeding  

There's no chance of getting to where the nest was - it was at the top of a really dense conifer, about 50 foot or so in the air. Also, I'm afraid I haven't got anything that would weigh such little amounts (dosmestic goddess I am NOT  ) but I'm a little less worried about being able to take care of them, thanks to all the info and experiences I've seen here. 

The green poop was runny, but I haven't seen any more since. Over the weekend they had five feeds a day, each of between 2 and 4mLs babyfood and 2-4mLS of Avipro/water, popped into their beak with a syringe (didn't know how much to give, so just kind of judged it by their reaction/expression if that makes sense). It didn't seem much, but they were so nervous and scared I didn't want to push them. 

The bigger of the two is now feeding himself nicely, but the smaller one still isn't walking and can't feed herself, so I'm popping it in her beak. She did seem really excited last night and this morning when I fed her, and she seems somehow heavier, cleaner and drier this morning than she has done. She was sitting in my hand and squeezing my finger, and she gave her (ickle) wings a stretch (what has come over me?!). Presumably she is just too young and/or weak to try walking as yet? She hasn't really got the hang of opening her beak for food, but I guess that's just time (??) I am soooo happy that it's not just accepted that one or both will die - I so hope they make it. Yesterday she only got fed twice, because I fed her, went to work, fed her again, and intended feeding her before bed. But when I went outside they were both tucked up in their hay, fast asleep, and it seemed mean to wake them. Should I have woken her? What if she's asleep again tonight?

I've just booked some holiday from work, so I'll be around to look after them tomorrow, and then Friday, Saturday Sunday and Monday, so there's just Thursday to worry about. How many times should I feed her, and how much? Just till her crop's full, like on the pictures? I'm hoping that by Tuesday she'll be walking, and then her big brother (sister?) can show her how to peck. 

Thanks for mentioning frozen corn - I've switched them, and I also got some shell-less birdseed on the way home from work, which I thought would be easier on their digestive systems. But do they need some grit? also, when I pop seed in the little ones mouth, how do I know if she want water, or how much? This morning I tried to teach her to drink for herself, out of the bowl, but it ended up more like bath-time. Ah well, it saved me having to shower - a good thing, considering how late I was for work by then  

Another concern I have is, will they be too cold outside all night? They have each other to cuddle up, and lots of hay, but last night it went down to 10 degrees C (I'm in a little village in Buckinghamshire). Is that too cold or ok?

Again, thank you for your help and I am really sorry about the length of this post, but I just want to do my best for my new friends.

Wendy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Wendy,

To be honest, 2 to 4 ml per feed sounds very little! I would go for 10 ml per feed, but always keeping an eye on the crop. It should be like a nice soft cushion when the baby is full, not hard. 
Added:
Just checked Bronny's thread. She fed 25 ml per feed 4 times a day, but the water was included in the food. So perhaps you could aim for 15 or 20 (it is the fact that your pigeon is underdeveloped that worries me...I don't know how he compares to a normal size baby). If the food is runny no additional water would be needed at this stage.

They would normally be okay outside at this age, the parents don't sit on them, but if the little one is not thriving you could bring them in at night. Just remember that stuff like overheated teflon, air freshners, essential oils, incense and tobbacco smoke can be toxic to birds.
Another addition!

Baby pigeons don't gape for food, they insert their beaks inside the parents' beak and the food is pumped up by the parent bird from the crop.

Some of the methods of feeding referred to in this thread might help you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682&referrerid=560

Cynthia


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## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

Cynthia - my small birdy friend just died and i am absolutely devastated, even i can't believe how upset i am. I have been so happy all day about the progress over the last 24 hours, and now everything has gone so wrong.

I rushed in from work and went straight to warm her sweetcorn and Avipro, crush the nuts, grab the seed etc. When I took her out of her nest she felt "wrong" - i don't know what - too cold, or too stiff or something. I thought maybe it was just a very deep sleep, so offered water etc, but she didn't really want anything (she did take one piece of sweetcorn) But then she just sat on my knee with her breathing getting less regular, sometimes deep and sometimes shallow and i didn't really know what to do except stroke and talk and then ever so gently she just stopped. So final. All i am trying to think is that it ended with her knowing that i cared about her, and that her last experience was warm hands and a gentle voice, but that's just not good enough right now.

Trying to be sensible about this, I think maybe you hit the nail on the head about her being under-developed, because today I was looking at some photos (I think they are yours? On your website?) about woodpigeons' age. Well yesterday I had not seen those when I guessed their age (I saw "normal" pigeon photos), and from those she looked way under two weeks, yet I would guess the bigger one to be 17 or 18 days - maybe even more. The "big" one has a tail that has more feathers, and longer feathers, and everything about him is bigger (I mean the size of the skull, eyes etc, things that do not just depend on weight). I don't know why I'm referring to the big one as "him" and the little one as "her". Also, the big one is feeding himself really nicely, picking up food from the floor. But surely they'd have been from the same nest (at the bottom of the same tree, at the same time)?

So, where should I go from here? Will my one pigeon be lonely? They didn't seem to interact much, so I'm not sure he'll miss her. Also, his parents are still visiting, so maybe not. Earlier this evening his mum or dad was outside the run and he was peeping at them and they were pecking the floor together. Also, I've just come indoors and I can hear one of the family coo-ing in a tree somewhere, but will he be ok? I don't mean in the future - I can face that when it happens, but should I be doing something now? And without his buddy, should he stay outside still (which I kind of prefer, as it seems more natural for him, but then I'm cluless with regards to pigeons, but if he's going to be cold he's more than welcome indoors once he's gone to "bed").

Well, I guess worrying about my big boy has taken my mind off things a little anyway. I just wish things had turned out different for my small one you know - I'd have done anything, and it hurts so much. Thanks again for your support Cynthia, I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.


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## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

PS Thank you for even more information that I didn't know - pigeons don't gape and their parents don't sit on them. This has got to be one of the steepest learning curves I have even been on. I can't imagine what we ever did without the internet, where we can get immediate access to expert knowledge on a subject such as yours. Thanks again so much for your time.


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## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

*Photo*

Here is a photo of my big birdy, taken on Sunday. Sorry it's a bit out of focus  
Isn't he gorgeous? (I am looking at it to cheer myself up - I've just been out to check on him and he is tucked up in his bed  )
Do i just copy the IMG bit???


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear the little one passed. I can imagine what a heartbreak it is. 

I am sure Cynthia will respond before long, I just wanted you to know that it is not unusual when one baby is a bit smaller then the other, sometimes it is because they are sick and that could possibly explain why the youngster was underdeveloped. 

Take care of that BIG BOY, he certainly is beautiful. I am sending comforting thoughts your way.


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## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

Thank you so much for your understanding reply Trees. Those words are really comforting because it feels like I did something wrong, and I tried so hard to make everything ok for those small birdies.
This time last week I had never met a pigeon, and now it feels like my heart is breaking clean in two.
Life is so very strange.

I just went back outside to check on Big Boy - he is inside snuggled right up in the hay and did not look too pleased that the outside light had come on *note to self: must not become over-protective of sweet baby bird*

Wendy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Wendy, I am very sorry the smallest woodie didn't make it. Although I know how much it hurts you can take comfort that when he passed he was being held and cared for and loved. Over the years we've learned that you can't win them all. Some babies simply don't have the stamina to fight to live. It sure does hurt though.

That big old baby sure is cute.


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## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

Thank you so much. My eyes are stinging and my chest is aching. I'm actually a "rabbit person" and this is the only situation I've ever been in that is like a bad situation with buns, if you know what i mean. You guys are so nice in letting me be so (what might seem to some people "pathetically") sad without pointing out that i never even knew pigeons/that bird/whatever before last week. My 4 days with that baby bird were so special to me.

Thanks again,
Wendy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry baby bird died. It is terrible, I know, you become so attached to them because of their dependence and vulnerability, the pain of losing a baby is unbelievable. But as Maggie says, some start off with a disadvantage and when it is a baby it is very hard to pull them through.

We know very little about woodies because they are not bred in captivity and are too common to attract interest from ornithologists. Feral pigeons can have one baby that fails to thrive if they have salmonellosis, but that disease kills collared doves so they don't have that scenario (as far as I know)...but I don't know how salmonellosis affects wood pigeons. And treating them with antibiotics just in case they have the disease can affect bone growth which is a terrible handicap for a woodpigeon that uis already underdeveloped.

Your big baby is still very young. Do the parents get a chance to feed him at all (under supervision so that he is not vulnerable to cats)? It would be so great if they could do that so that when he fledges they can take care of him and show him the ropes. It will also be a comfort to them and to him.

Cynthia


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## Wendyjf (Aug 7, 2006)

Ah - I understand, i think. I think it's a bit like you can't put antibiotics in your tropical fish tank because you think just one fish has something, cos it's too dangerous to the others.

The parents are still here (i mean ALL the time). Under supervision I am putting food for them right outside his run so for example, when I came in tonight, he was squeeking and bobbing with his wings out and (whoever) was pecking the food up, right beside him but outside the run. So he was also pecking the food. In the garden we have what looks like Mum, Dad and one younger (if he was a horse I'd say a yearling - not baby, not full grown) bird that all visit the run. Baby clearly wants to go and join them, but he can't fly - AAAAAGH! What do i do? Surely he'll be able to fly soon? How old do you think he is from the photo? If you have any better idea of how I should handle the situation, please let me know your thoughts, as I am (obviously) guessing what is a good thing to do! Basically, he's better off with his family, but I can't let him go when he can't fly (AT ALL!) cos of predators.

So as I say, any advice is appreciated, especially if you say "move him indoors for a cuddle"  Just please let me know your thoughts.


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