# Grizzle?



## NZ Pigeon

Grizzle?? - Hey guys, Please check this bird out and give your opinion on whether it is grizzle, I am confident the answers will be no.

Top bird on the far right

http://adlofts.weebly.com/homers-for-sale.html

Here is the thread also for some background.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/our-new-website-63518.html

I am not trying to proove anyone wrong but I understood grizzle would effect all feathers, not just one so am interested to see what peoples opinion is on Bob Mcguans statement in his book


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## Charis

I always thought that grizzle effected all feathers too, but I certainly am not expert in this category.


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## Charis

I found this...

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/grizzle.htm


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## NZ Pigeon

Thanks Charis, And Yes, I agree with the statement that a grizzle bird can be anything from almost all white to a bird with one or two white feathers but only when other modifiers are added to the mix which inhibit the expression of grizzle, When looking at a blue bar bird (wildtype) with grizzle you would definetly expect to see more grizzling than this particular bird.


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## horseart4u

ok my website, my bird, her father is a red grizzle ( tiger ) her mother is a blue grizzle almost all white, she has a grizzle feather in her right primary flight feathers not seen in picture.


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## NZ Pigeon

could you post a pic of this feather?


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## tmaas

I think Bob Mc Guan is referring to spread grizzled birds which can express only a single white feather. Also, all offspring of two grizzled parents are not always grizzle. The splash parent of this bird in question may not even be grizzle, it could be a heavy pied bird with very little color being expressed.


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## NZ Pigeon

tmaas said:


> *I think Bob Mc Guan is referring to spread grizzled birds which can express only a single white feather.* Also, all offspring of two grizzled parents are not always grizzle. The splash parent of this bird in question may not even be grizzle, it could be a heavy pied bird with very little color being expressed.


I think you are right after reading the context he said it in. Basically saying that other modifiers or mutant genes can effect grizzles causing a white bird or a bird with one or two white feathers, I agree with this statement 100%

Tmass, I am guessing you agree the particular Blue bar in question is not grizzle


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## rudolph.est

Grizzle will always affect all colored feathers. The degree of the effect is what differs from bird to bird according to the modifiers present. If you want to know if a bird is grizzle, pull a colored feather, if it is white at the base, grizzle or under-grizzle are the only genes that can be the cause.

From the site AU2012ARPU65620 and AU2012ARPU65612 are both definitely grizzle.


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## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> Grizzle will always affect all colored feathers. The degree of the effect is what differs from bird to bird according to the modifiers present. If you want to know if a bird is grizzle, pull a colored feather, if it is white at the base, grizzle or under-grizzle are the only genes that can be the cause.
> 
> From the site *AU2012ARPU65620 and AU2012ARPU65612* are both definitely grizzle.


I agree 100%


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## dimerro

For me, AU2012ARPU65611 is not grizzle, it is white flight blue bar. If you look closely you will see two white nails of left foot that have a similar reason (a pied gene) as white feathers of left wing.


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## Dunn

that first pic nz pigeon i beleive is a splash grizzle look like to me


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## horseart4u

i will try to get a picture of her right wing today...


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## horseart4u

ok here is her wing picture.


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## NZ Pigeon

Dunn said:


> that first pic nz pigeon i beleive is a splash grizzle look like to me


I agree - What about this bird though, 

AU2012ARPU65611 - I have not thought it was grizzle from word go but I know when I am selling something to someone ( i breed a lot of fish and sell them ) I like to make sure my descriptions are 100% accurate, When someone is buying online descriptions and pics is all they have to go on so they need to be correct. I was trying to help Donna from having a bad sale situation by correcting what was wrong on the site in the way of this bird being described as a grizzle. My opinion was not enough so I thought if others agreed that this bird is not grizzle she may correct the advert leading to a happy buyer and seller in future.


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## Dunn

all i can see is the wing but just by the wing i would say no but i am still new and learning but this does not look like a grizzle to me and i'll post a few picks of what i have and are grizzles heck will try to post all my birds if i can been meaning to anyways


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## horseart4u

that pic is is what NZ pigeon wanted to see you can see her on my website.


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## NZ Pigeon

Dunn said:


> all i can see is the wing but just by the wing i would say no but i am still new and learning but this does not look like a grizzle to me and i'll post a few picks of what i have and are grizzles heck will try to post all my birds if i can been meaning to anyways


Mate, Don't let this thread confuse what you are learning. This bird is not grizzle. I have some grizzles in my album - am interested to see yours too!




























Donna - I am not trying to proove you wrong but surely if you are selling something you would want the description to be accurate???


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## horseart4u

you have nice looking birds too, did you see her wing picture? you didn't comment on it, is it or isn't it a grizzle feather on her?


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## NZ Pigeon

It looks like the same effect as grizzle but i have pied birds that have no grizzle amongst them but have these flights, I am not sure if its associated with pied or some sort of undergrizzle but even with undergrizzle it should show on all flights when the feather is splayed. After looking at the wing pic I am still convinced this bird is not grizzle.


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## Dunn

donna that is a grizzle feather BUT one feather being grizzle i don't think say its a grizzle i will have my grizzles on in just a few i hope if i can figure it out


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## NZ Pigeon

Dunn said:


> donna that is a grizzle feather BUT one feather being grizzle i don't think say its a grizzle i will have my grizzles on in just a few i hope if i can figure it out


Grizzle (G) is a specific effect caused by a specific mutant gene, It is not scientifically possible for a non grizzle bird to have a "grizzle feather" There is some sort of gene in the mix causing this which is not grizzle, I have seen it on my pied birds and wonder if the pied genes have trouble cutting the pigment completely from the flights causing this "grizzled" look or it could be something else.


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## Dunn

i am just saying i think it could have a grizzle gene but this is not a grizzle type pigeon those pic's you posted nz i agree with


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## NZ Pigeon

Dunn said:


> i am just saying i think *it could have a grizzle gene *but this is not a grizzle type pigeon those pic's you posted nz i agree with


Its either G or not. Its not possible for it to have "a grizzle gene" and not be grizzle


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## tmaas

After viewing the latest pic of extended wing I think the bird is grizzle because of the last flight feather also appearing to axpress some type of grizzle at its base. Also, upon closer observation of pic on web site, it appears that the birds underside ,by legs and vent, also expresses grizzle.


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## NZ Pigeon

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - tmaas if this bird is grizzle, and obviously blue bar, What do you think could be causing the grizzle NOT to express on about 99% of this birds feathers?


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## tmaas

Evan, sorry but grizzle is not always obviously expressed on every feather. It is actually difficult to find expression of it on some grizzled birds. Some years ago I bred from a blue bar hen with no white feathers on her, but she had a frosty looking underside, mated to various blue and brown cocks she produced some obviously grizzled young. I think there are some types of grizzle that we have not yet identified.


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## derryfancier

This is a strange discussion in ireland here grizzles are mostly white with black specks
or red with black or white specks on the feathers i have heard people mistaking a blue cheq pied pigeon for a grizzle. I would call this bird white flighted maybe.


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## tmaas

derryfancier said:


> This is a strange discussion in ireland here grizzles are mostly white with black specks
> or red with black or white specks on the feathers i have heard people mistaking a blue cheq pied pigeon for a grizzle. I would call this bird white flighted maybe.


At a glance they appear to be white flighted (pied) birds but geneticly, and phenotypicly upon close observation, they are grizzle because they produce some grizzles.


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## NZ Pigeon

tmaas said:


> At a glance they appear to be white flighted (pied) birds but geneticly, and phenotypicly upon close observation, they are grizzle because they produce some grizzles.


You mention in a previous post some possible grizzle genes that are undiscovered, I am open to this suggestion by all means but what I am talking about is the mutation known as classic grizzle (G) - You will not convince me this bird has G in its genotype, I agree there could be some other gene that is causing the grizzled effect in a few feathers and I have mentioned that previously.

I also agree that spread birds may show one or two grizzled feathers as we know that spread inhibits the grizzle effect but on a blue bar the expression would be as described when the G gene was discovered. I think they refer to it as salt and pepper.


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## NZ Pigeon

derryfancier said:


> This is a strange discussion in ireland here grizzles are mostly white with black specks
> or red with black or white specks on the feathers i have heard people mistaking a blue cheq pied pigeon for a grizzle. I would call this bird white flighted maybe.


It is white flighter - Blue bar w white flights, Or blue bar pied if you like.


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## horseart4u

boy did i open a can of worms


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## tmaas

Evan, you may very well be correct that classic grizzle (G) is not present, however, it's also possible that an unknown and unseen factor is present in some birds which inhibits the expression of (G).

A & D, hopefully your opened can of worms will inspire someone to go fishing for information by test mating your bird in question and learn what is causing the inconsistency of color.


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## NZ Pigeon

tmaas said:


> Evan, you may very well be correct that classic grizzle (G) is not present, however, it's also possible that an unknown and unseen factor is present in some birds which inhibits the expression of (G).
> 
> A & D, hopefully your opened can of worms will inspire someone to go fishing for information by test mating your bird in question and learn what is causing the inconsistency of color.


Tmaas, I agree in some instances it could be possible for an unknown and unseen factor to Inhibit grizzle, We can not rule much out with genetics. Spread is a known factor which inhibits grizzle but as far as I knew there were not any others known as yet. Maybe dirty?, Based on the amount of years that (G) has been present and also based on the predicted ratios for (G) generally being spot on I would suspect there are not any factors on this blue bar bird that would inhibit grizzle this much

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and agree its possible but I am still pretty certain this bird is not carrying (G) in its genotype

Tmaas - Have you got blue pied birds in your loft?, These "grizzled" looking flights are incredibly common in pied birds IME.

I also agree that Donna should do some test breeding with the bird but its for sale so I am guessing this will not happen.


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## NZ Pigeon

horseart4u said:


> boy did i open a can of worms


I thought I opened it lol


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## tmaas

Evan, I have messed with a number of pieds over the years and ,to be honest, a stray grizzled feather has only shown up from families with tort., grizzle, undergrizzle, or drizzle in their ancestory. Most often from torts and accompanied by a frosty looking underside.


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## NZ Pigeon

Thats interesting, I have seen it a lot in pied birds coming straight from blue bar racers, Maybe some testing does need to be done to figure out what causes these " grizzled " feathers.


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## rudolph.est

I've never seen single grizzled feathers like this before. I still maintain that it has nothing to do with any of the grizzling genes, and agree that it is probably a result of the pied mutations of these birds. 

I have seen many pied birds with white and color mixed in one feather, this is especially common in the flights. I think the bird in question is just an extreme expression of such a phenomenon.


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## horseart4u

well if it helps, this is her father HAWK and mother SUGAR CREAM and her brother


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## NZ Pigeon

Those 3 are definetly how I would expect to see a grizzle look.

Rudolph - We may have to agree to disagree with the others here, I am with you on this one and don't think I can be convinced otherwise unless this bird is put in a breeding program and produces grizzles as unlikely as that is.


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## horseart4u

well she is almost old enough to breed if she doesn't sell, to do a test mating what should i breed her to, color wise? i don't have and blue bar males, just a classic grizzle, grizzles in black, blue and a dilute


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## NZ Pigeon

ideally you would want a blue bar. No point test breeding her to a grizzle - well it could be done but for definitive results you would need to breed heaps of birds and is still far from ideal. Blue bar rollers or anything you could use?


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## horseart4u

i have an andalusian indigo bar birmingham roller, but i don't think he's old enough yet. ( i think thats his colors from what i read in that book)


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## NZ Pigeon

horseart4u said:


> i have an andalusian indigo bar birmingham roller, but i don't think he's old enough yet. ( i think thats his colors  from what i read in that book)


If its Andalusian then its spread + Indigo. If it has a bronze looking bar it sounds more like an Indigo Blue Bar.

Once again, If I was you I would get a blue bar. Out of 20 birds you could start to put together some data that may show some patterns in these flights and how they come about.


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## horseart4u

here is his picture, i don't think he's spread tho, but from what i read in that book he looks the color of an adalusian with indigo...


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## NZ Pigeon

Looks ash red, Maybe sooty too - Does not look Indigo but Indigo can be hard to see on ash red, Definetly not andalusian


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## tmaas

It looks homozygous indigo blue bar to me. What color were its parents?


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## NZ Pigeon

Yeah pics of the parents would be good!


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## rudolph.est

horseart4u said:


> here is his picture, i don't think he's spread tho, but from what i read in that book he looks the color of an adalusian with indigo...


This bird could very well be homozygous indigo. We'd have to know the parentage to be sure though, since it could just be dirty ash-red too.

It is important to remember that there is not such things as _*color of an adalusian with indigo*_ as you stated in your thread. The color of an Andalusian, is the color caused by the combination of indigo and spread genes on the same bird. In other words, Andalusian is *always* spread and indigo. Ron Huntley has some nice pictures of Andalusians on his website. I suggest you have a look there.


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## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> This bird could very well be homozygous indigo. We'd have to know the parentage to be sure though, since it could just be dirty ash-red too.
> 
> It is important to remember that there is not such things as _*color of an adalusian with indigo*_ as you stated in your thread. The color of an Andalusian, is the color caused by the combination of indigo and spread genes on the same bird. In other words, Andalusian is *always* spread and indigo. Ron Huntley has some nice pictures of Andalusians on his website. I suggest you have a look there.


I agree that dirty is likely if this bird is infact ash red but one question, Does dirty cause the extra flecking up the shield on an ash red bird or would that be down the effect of sooty..? Or is it one of those unknown genes?
I agree this bird is not the typical sooty and maybe I was too quick to assume based on those extra "red" areas that the bird is sooty but if not sooty what is it I wonder?


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## rudolph.est

I still vote for **** indigo. The head seems to become quite blue just as we reach the bald-head pied area.


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## horseart4u

i agree with RUDOLPH.EST his parents are NEMO & DORY, NEMO also carries dilute. TULIO ( this bird) has a sister.
here are their pic's
this is NEMO ( RED CHECK ) & DORY she is an indigo blue bar pied








and TULIO's sister


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## rudolph.est

The sister looks like homozygous indigo to me too, so your red check cock nemo could be ash-red indigo. Alternatively the young indigo bar could be an ash-red indigo.

I try to never mix indigo with ash-red, it makes it too difficult to know what is what when the reds are involved.


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## horseart4u

well i know mom is indigo bar for sure, so they can be getting it from her right? all their off spring are indigo bars even the dilute silver i have, she shows reddish bars. i thought TULIO's sister was ash red sooty, but thanks for explaining what she is, i think she's pretty but have no room for her or have a mate for her.


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## NZ Pigeon

horseart4u said:


> *well i know mom is indigo bar for sure, so they can be getting it from her right?* all their off spring are indigo bars even the dilute silver i have, she shows reddish bars. i thought TULIO's sister was ash red sooty, but thanks for explaining what she is, i think she's pretty but have no room for her or have a mate for her.


Correct but to be homozygous they must also be getting it from the father.


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## rudolph.est

NZ Pigeon said:


> Correct but to be homozygous they must also be getting it from the father.


Quite correct, that is why I said the father could be an ash-red indigo, which is very difficult to know for sure from looking at a bird. The experts can, in person, but photographs lie. I have never bred or seen an ash-red indigo in real life, so I don't even know what to look for...

I stated that the sibling bird is also homozygous indigo (maybe even **** indigo on ash-red), since in my experience **** indigos show an effect of light bases and darker tips on the feathers (almost like undergrizzle). Usually only the outer parts of the feathers are colored in shades of blue and red. The pattern (of checks and Ts) is also difficult to make out.Yes, they do look like ash-reds, but not exactly.


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## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> Quite correct, *that is why I said the father could be an ash-red indigo*, which is very difficult to know for sure from looking at a bird. The experts can, in person, but photographs lie. I have never bred or seen an ash-red indigo in real life, so I don't even know what to look for...
> 
> I stated that the sibling bird is also homozygous indigo (maybe even **** indigo on ash-red), since in my experience **** indigos show an effect of light bases and darker tips on the feathers (almost like undergrizzle). Usually only the outer parts of the feathers are colored in shades of blue and red. The pattern (of checks and Ts) is also difficult to make out.Yes, they do look like ash-reds, but not exactly.


I agree, He must be atleast het indigo, Was pointing out to Donna that she is correct that the mother is Indigo but for the offspring to be **** Indigo, the cock must carry atleast one dose of the gene too.

I guess with what you say about photographs the cock could technically be a blue bird that is **** indigo and an incredibly good "ash red mimic" Although I do not believe this is the case here it is possible. I agree 100% photos can be deceiving.


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## MaryOfExeter

No that is not a grizzle. I have had many pied flight birds with some "grizzling" of color in them. But that does not make them grizzle. Undergrizzle perhaps, maybe just an effect of being pied, but not grizzle.


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## MaryOfExeter

I agree Tulo does look like homozygous indigo. His sister makes me wonder if recessive opal is hiding in your birds too or if perhaps the father carries reduced.


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## NZ Pigeon

MaryOfExeter said:


> No that is not a grizzle. I have had many pied flight birds with some "grizzling" of color in them. But that does not make them grizzle. Undergrizzle perhaps, maybe just an effect of being pied, but not grizzle.


Thanks Becky, I hoped you would be along, Donna - are you going to change the advert now?


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## horseart4u

nope... because i had a fancier here today and he said she has grizzle in her, any way i am gonna breed her and see what happens.


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## spirit wings

I have about 7 of those "grizzle" birds in my loft...lol.. sounds good to me.


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## NZ Pigeon

Ok, But Becky, Rudolph and I all agree its not grizzle and we all agree that those grizzled feathers are caused by piebald, Your choice but its misleading to anyone that actually knows what the grizzle gene (G) is.


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## spirit wings

I think the pigeon world will not get too disrupted on this one..


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## horseart4u

me either, all i know is what i see and thats what i wrote down, i never said she WAS grizzle but had grizzle feathers. Anyway i am gonna breed her to what i have thats not grizzle ( which isn't much )and see what happens.


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## beatlemike

Im just damn glad it wasnt a chicken feather!


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## NZ Pigeon

horseart4u said:


> me either, all i know is what i see and thats what i wrote down, i never said she WAS grizzle but had grizzle feathers. Anyway i am gonna breed her to what i have thats not grizzle ( which isn't much )and see what happens.


LOL, The add actually stated, Blue bar grizzle as the bird, But its gone now.

Spirit Wings- Thanks for your contribution, Its nice to see your extensive knowledge being used in the genetics area


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## horseart4u

no it said "blue bar with one grizzle feather on her right primaries"....DUH!!!!! yes i took it down because i am gonna try a test breed and see what happens, hey that was your idea anyway...


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## spirit wings

NZ Pigeon said:


> LOL, The add actually stated, Blue bar grizzle as the bird, But its gone now.
> 
> Spirit Wings- Thanks for your contribution, Its nice to see your extensive knowledge being used in the genetics area


 you are a sarcastic jackAss. Now THAT I do know! and perhaps the "Sheldon Cooper" (big bang theory) of pigeon colors/markings. 

I wanted to support horseart, so perhaps she would not feel so stupid for listing the bird the way YOU think she should of. in which it was changed because she is going to keep the bird.. good for checking up on her. I find it creepy. JMO.


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## horseart4u

SPIRIT WINGS thank you for the support


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## NZ Pigeon

spirit wings said:


> you are a sarcastic jackAss. Now THAT I do know! and perhaps the "Sheldon Cooper" (big bang theory) of pigeon colors/markings.
> 
> I wanted to support horseart, so perhaps she would not feel so stupid for listing the bird the way YOU think she should of. in which it was changed because she is going to keep the bird.. good for checking up on her. I find it creepy. JMO.


First of all I like Sheldon

Second I do not think you should be calling me a jackass on here, Can you edit that part out please.

What people do not seem to understand is it is quite clear this bird was not grizzle, Most people with extensive genetic knowledge such as Becky and Rudolph agreed. 

Donna, Considering you are PM'ing me for advice I find it strange you feel you need support.

The title of the bird was Blue bar/Grizzle - I saw it with my own eyes and have no reason to lie about it. If I was selling something and listings its colour I would want it to be correct, I often get corrected with my siamese fighting fish because I am still learning and do get it wrong sometimes, I take this onboard and learn from it. I guess if you would be happy to purchase a black T.V. online and get sent a blue one then good on you, I would not be happy that's for sure

Spirit, How can you find my post creepy, Donna posted a thread, Asked us to look and give advice, I did and you call this creepy.... strange.


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## pigeon is fun

peace!!!!!


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## beatlemike

#64 20th August 2012, 09:50 AM 
spirit wings 
Matriarch Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 16,324 

I think the pigeon world will not get too disrupted on this one.. 


I agree!


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## horseart4u

well i guess it did  and as stated, she is a blue bar with a grizzle primary flight feather...i have people on here saying she is grizzle and some saying she isn't, i had a guy here last weekend said she has grizzle in her or that feather wouldn't be there...end of story, some one please remove this thread....


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## almondman

It is time to bring back the peace. I do not think there is much more to be said on this subject, so I am going to lock down this thread.


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