# Should I stop feeding the pigeons that come to my house?



## msmely

Hey guys,

I need some advice. I started feeding pigeons at my house about 7 months ago, about 10-15 pigeons on average started coming to my house everyday..I thought I was doing something good for them. They would sunbake, drink fresh water, bathe on a daily basis, eat a really good pigeon seed mix and they all seemed really content. 

Now we went on a 2 week holiday and ever since we came back it seems like all the pigeons have started spreading a disease (I think canker) to each other and I assume most have died.

I only noticed last week when my favourite pigeon had his mouth open, wasn't eating and wasn't nesting on his eggs either. I couldn't catch him in time and he passed away. Now I've notcied that from the 15 that used to come here are only about 5. I found one pigeon dead and the rest who are alive don't come across the road to get food anymore and are just all sitting close to eachother and not sunbaking on top of the roof but rather puffed up and huddled at the back of a section of the house. About 2 pigeons on average actively come to get food and they're even acting strange. 

There are no poops anymore but I did notice one big one today that was really dark brown and runny. 

I ordered some canker anti-biotic online to put in their water but because I'm in Australia I'm worried it might take too long to get here.

I feel like this is entirely my fault, these pigeons all just came to my house because of food and water and now I helped them spread disease through eachother and possibly die before they were meant too. 

*
Should I stop feeding them all together?* I really thought I was helping them. This whole situation just came on so quickly, I feel helpless about it.

It would be sad for me to never feed these pigeons again but I want to do what's best for them, that's why I started feeding them. I'll be thankful for any advice.


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## Jay3

Your feeding them didn't make them sick. Unfortunately sometimes they do get sick, and in a flock disease can spread fairly quickly. They would have gotten sick whether you were feeding or not. The fact that you left for a while and weren't there to feed, if you are the only place they are getting food, could have made an impact on their health. If stressed enough, they can easily get canker, which does spread through a flock. I'm sorry they are sick. That's sad, but you aren't sure what they are sick with. Bringing a dropping sample to a vet to be checked for illness would help to tell you what they have.


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## Bella_F

Dear msmely,

In the first year when I started feeding feral pigeons along with the Native birds we regularly feed like magpies, butcherbirds, kookaburras etc , we had to go away 3 times for longer than a week each time.

The native birds were just fine when we returned, we didn't lose any of our regulars. But the feral pigeons were not ok. Each time we returned, we came home to very sick and dead pigeons. So I asked myself the same questions as you are asking yourself now- am I spreading diseases here, should I stop this? I didn't know the answer but it was easy to see they needed the food and fresh water, so we kept looking after them as well as we could with our limited resources.

My opinion now is that lack of food is what causes this. When starvation sets in, sickness follows shortly afterwards, and those sicknesses spread through the flock via water and droppings. Feral pigeons just don't cope too well in Australia without rubbish and people who feed them. Councils and schools are determined to make sure there are no scraps around for birds, so the pigeons can get very reliant on people who feed them.

I don't know what the answer to this reliance is exactly. I love my flock. If I look outside during the day I will see over 20 birds that I've personally nursed through sickness, and others that I know by face, character, markings. But I can't support their numbers all on my own indefinitely, and I don't feel that its right to contribute to expanding their population. But I won't turn my back on suffering either. So I guess I'm starting to take a `you can only do what you can do' attitude. I know if I go away for a couple of weeks, quite a few of them will die. That hurts SO much, but in between those times I can & will help. Its one of those acts of love that is very much bitter sweet. 

Oh, something that counters the losses and hardship of loving wild pigeons for me is keeping a few as pets. Its nice to be able to give at least a few of them the full capacity of my care, even if I can't do that for all of them. 

I guess it takes a lot of strength to care about ferals. Good on you for helping them; they really seem to need it!


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## spirit wings

the only problem with feeding them is they gather around and can get noticed by someone who does not like pigeons and then they call an exterminator and get poisend or trapped..so there can be bad side of gathering them in one place esp if you have neighbors.


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## Bella_F

I've heard that point raised before in relation to other countries, but things are a little different here in Australia, where msmely is from. 

Unlike America, we have an abundance of Native Pigeons which eat with feral pigeons. Most people don't know the difference between a feral and a Native dove, but they DO know that killing or trapping a native bird comes with very heavy fines in the league of hundreds of thousands of dollars. So you don't generally get situations where neighbours leave out poison & traps for pigeons, especially not 5 -15 pigeons. If they did they could lose their house or go to jail for killing native birds. Also it costs money to do something so psychopathic & potentially incriminating.

The cases you read of here where birds are poisoned or tortured tend to happen in the country where there are less eyes. Feral pigeons generally can't survive in the country so its mostly native birds and animals like Koalas who endure that kind of human cruelty.


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## msmely

Thank you so much Bella for telling me that. That does break my heart because it didn't need to happen but I'm glad I know why it happened.

I was really worried about them in those two weeks, my sister would come in every other day to feed them but I guess that wasn't enough 
It really is so sad looking out now to have no pigeons waiting for me, some of them were really more like my own pets, responding to their names and eating out of my hand. I guess they were too reliant on me, and when I wasn't there, got too stressed. 

You're right Bella it is very bittersweet. I feed a flock in the city and most of them are sick at the moment, seeing them usually brightens my mood but lately it just pains me..I'm glad I can do something though. 
I did have a rescued feral once, which is how I came to love them but now I have two rescued ex racing pigeons.

I just hope that I can get the anti biotic in time before the last two pigeons who still seem to be eating get too sick aswell. Thank you guys.


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## thepigeonkey

you guys know there is a bad strain of pmv in Aussie aye? I don't know particulars but its making a lot of pigeons die.


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## msmely

Pigeonkey, yes I've heard...I just looked up the symptoms and they completely match what I've been seeing in the feral flock I see in the city.

A few months ago, I'd feed at least 100 and now it's about 20 or 30 and out of those 20 or 30 most look very sick...not able to pick up seeds properly, walking in circles, not flying well and just seeming disorientated. I feel so bad for them and want to help but it's impossible for me to care for them  Out of all of them, it's the babies that seem the most sick too, like they are born with it. sad.

I don't think that's what's happening with my pigeons at my house though, there symptoms are different.


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## amyable

I've just been reading your thread am so sorry you're losing your local flock like this.
It is so hard when you enjoy the act of helping and feeding these lovely birds but are at a loss to help them when they so desperately need it. It really does hurt.
I agree with Bella, it does take a lot of strength to help ferals and unfortunately you're usually hooked on caring for them before you know whether you're actually capable of dealing with the traumas that come with this love.
I understand what Bella says in trying to do the best for our resident rescues by way of compensating for not being able to help all those we come across but it still is so hard to see any feral in distress and have to walk away.
I've just had to assist in evicting my local flock from a building they've lived in for years as the owners want to develope it. It hurt like hell as I know many of them will suffer now they have no shelter over the winter.
I sadly have no advice or knowledge as to what is ailing your flock, I think you're probably already aware of the possible cause, but I just wanted to offer you verbal support as I know how hard it must be to see them decline in such a way.
I do hope that the ones left can pull through this so the flock aren't totally eradicated.
I wish you luck and thanks for caring about them,

Janet


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## Bella_F

Dear msmely,

I really hope that you don't blame yourself for the things you cannot do, like being at home forever without taking vacations, and providing abundant food & medicine to every bird that needs it. It really is enough to do your part, within the capacity of your knowledge and resources. There might not be enough good hearted people around to help share the burdeon of caring for the wild birds that you lvoe, but that's not you're fault or responsibility. 

At the moment I am listening to the awful sound of a chain saw right outside my window, where the tree loppers have just taken down a beautiful old tree with a huge nest with live baby crows in in it. Oh I was so looking forward to meeting them! I am choked up with the pain of it, and the sadness of thinking of those chicks being ground up in the wood shredder, where those awful people threw them when they came down. 
I sometimes feel almost crazy because of the lack of basic compassion for life around me. 

PS, have you thought of reporting the suspected cases of PMV virus to Victoria DPI? Those kinds of reports are extremely important.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agriculture/pests-diseases-and-weeds/animal-diseases/pigeon-virus


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## Bella_F

amyable said:


> I've just had to assist in evicting my local flock from a building they've lived in for years as the owners want to develope it. It hurt like hell as I know many of them will suffer now they have no shelter over the winter.
> Janet


Dear Janet,

That must have hurt so much, I am sorry you went through that. I really hope that they found some new shelter, are there any schools or universities around there? At least pigeons are not too territorial compared with other species f birds, so they might be able to get in with another group?


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## msmely

It's good to know there are people who understand, thank you. I thought it was canker and I think canker affected a few of them but I noticed one of the two left that's still alive shows sypmtoms of pmv. He's not leaving my house as he thinks he can't fly, he can't seem to pick up seeds anymore (he just moves his head from side to side) even though he's trying. It breaks my heart, I just want to help him...if he's still there in a couple hours I might just try and grab him and put him in my old guinea pig hutch with food and water. There's no cure for it so I'm not sure what I could do

I will report it though, thank you Bella and amyable.


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## Bella_F

msmely said:


> It's good to know there are people who understand, thank you. I thought it was canker and I think canker affected a few of them but I noticed one of the two left that's still alive shows sypmtoms of pmv. He's not leaving my house as he thinks he can't fly, he can't seem to pick up seeds anymore (he just moves his head from side to side) even though he's trying. It breaks my heart, I just want to help him...if he's still there in a couple hours I might just try and grab him and put him in my old guinea pig hutch with food and water. There's no cure for it so I'm not sure what I could do
> 
> I will report it though, thank you Bella and amyable.


Are you in Victoria then? The PMV symptoms in Victoria are a little different to what you would normally read about on this forum. It maybe a whole different strain of PMV but that is yet to be determined. 

In Australia, the PMV affected pigeons die within a day mostly, and they vomit a whiteish liquid. In other parts of the world the death is not so rapid and violent....so if you're seeing the same birds for several days, they may have something different to PMV. Lets hope anyway!


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## msmely

Yes, I'm in Melourne.
Oh really? I heard the PMV here was a lot more harsh but I didn't know it could kill them within a day. 

Well, the ones at my house come day after day. Especially one who seems not to be able to fly most of the time and staggers when he walks, hopefully he doesn't have it and can make it through. 

The flock in the city has gone from well over 100 to about 30 and I've been seeing the same pigeons for a couple weeks now, I took a video of one of them.

Either way, it seems to be wiping them out. It's not just the flock in the city, everywhere I go where there used to be a flock of pigeons only have a couple left. They've all just died off


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## Bella_F

The info on the DPI Victoria site says practically all pigeons die within 3 days of contracting the virus, and usually the whole flock dies if any of the birds in that flock get the PMV. Its so disturbing & sad! Overseas, the mortality rate is no where near that high for PMV.

Regarding the symptoms you're seeing in the pigeons at your home, such as staggering, wobbliness, and pecking at seeds but not eating them- those are unfortunately fairly typical signs of illness & advance starvation. Salmonella , which is common in feral pigeons, can also cause them to show neurological symptoms which are a lot like PMV. I realise none of this great news, but I hope you will find this a little reassuring knowing there are other possibilities aside from a deadly virus affecting your flock.

PS. I forget, what kind of antibiotics did you order and have they arrived yet? Its an amazing feeling to capture a sick pigeon for the first time and nurse it back to health instead of having to sit by and watch it suffer and slowly die. Have you ever made a box trap before- you know, a large box held up with a stick, with string tied to it? This can be a good way to catch a sick pigeon, especially when they are very hungry.


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## msmely

I've been reading up on the pmv that is here online and it says that they expect it to spread to all of Australia within two years. Does that mean there's a possibility that all of the pigeons in Melbourne will just die off? I really hope not but out of the 30 that's left in what used to be the biggest flock I'd see, most of them are really ill which isn't usual. A few months ago, nearly all would be healthy and the only thing I'd worry about was string foot injury 

the antibiotics haven't arrived yet, I thought it would take a while since it's from the US. Even the the little guy that's sick can't really fly but he still manages to come to my house everyday because of the food and water. At least I know he has that.

I've never tried a box trap before. The only thing I'm worried about when catching a sick pigeon is infecting my own pigeons..


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## November-X-Scourge

I'm pretty sure if you report any PMV, someone will come and kill them.....


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## Bella_F

msmely said:


> I've been reading up on the pmv that is here online and it says that they expect it to spread to all of Australia within two years. Does that mean there's a possibility that all of the pigeons in Melbourne will just die off?


I personally don't think so, fingers crossed.




> the antibiotics haven't arrived yet, I thought it would take a while since it's from the US. Even the the little guy that's sick can't really fly but he still manages to come to my house everyday because of the food and water. At least I know he has that.


You can use an antibiotic called `Sulfa 3' by inca, that's what I use. You can get it from multiple places in Australia, even ebay. You could google `Inca sulfa-3' and see if anywhere local stocks it. My local pet shop also stocks something called `triple sulfa' in the fish section, which is the same thing as SUlfa-3, so you could just call a local pet shop and ask about it. You could save a few of your birds with it, even if you don't catch them, by putting in the water, or dosing little bread balls and throwing them to them. It really sounds like they need your help right now.



> I've never tried a box trap before. The only thing I'm worried about when catching a sick pigeon is infecting my own pigeons.


The other option would be to put the antibiotics in the water like people who own large flocks of pigeons do. Its not as good as individual dosing , but it will do.


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## Bella_F

November-X-Scourge said:


> I'm pretty sure if you report any PMV, someone will come and kill them.....


Is that what do they overseas? I feel that its important to report PMV here in Australia, because it gives the government the power to keep pigeon racing/trading/showing in lockdown, to help prevent the spread of the disease. Also, with this particular strain, no flock with it would survive. The mortality rate is pretty much 100%


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## Jay3

Antibiotics won't cure PMV. Birds need to be vaccinated for it before they come down with it. If it is something other than PMV that these birds are ill with, then antibiotics may help.


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## Charis

msmely said:


> I've been reading up on the pmv that is here online and it says that they expect it to spread to all of Australia within two years. Does that mean there's a possibility that all of the pigeons in Melbourne will just die off? I really hope not but out of the 30 that's left in what used to be the biggest flock I'd see, most of them are really ill which isn't usual. A few months ago, nearly all would be healthy and the only thing I'd worry about was string foot injury
> 
> the antibiotics haven't arrived yet, I thought it would take a while since it's from the US. Even the the little guy that's sick can't really fly but he still manages to come to my house everyday because of the food and water. At least I know he has that.
> 
> I've never tried a box trap before. *The only thing I'm worried about when catching a sick pigeon is infecting my own pigeons*..


No way you can just pick him up? As he can't fly, it shouldn't be too difficult. Certainly warmth and rest would be good for him. Besides, since he is unable to fly, he is very vulnerable to predators.
Your pigeons should be fine as long as you keep them separate from him and practice good hygiene.


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## Jay3

How is he getting to your house if he isn't flying? Is he roosting there at night. Charis is right in that if he can't fly well, he could easily be caught by a predator. If he is ill, he may need help with feeding.


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## jaes mum

Bella_F said:


> Dear msmely,
> 
> I really hope that you don't blame yourself for the things you cannot do, like being at home forever without taking vacations, and providing abundant food & medicine to every bird that needs it. It really is enough to do your part, within the capacity of your knowledge and resources. There might not be enough good hearted people around to help share the burdeon of caring for the wild birds that you lvoe, but that's not you're fault or responsibility.
> 
> At the moment I am listening to the awful sound of a chain saw right outside my window, where the tree loppers have just taken down a beautiful old tree with a huge nest with live baby crows in in it. Oh I was so looking forward to meeting them! I am choked up with the pain of it, and the sadness of thinking of those chicks being ground up in the wood shredder, where those awful people threw them when they came down.
> I sometimes feel almost crazy because of the lack of basic compassion for life around me.
> 
> PS, have you thought of reporting the suspected cases of PMV virus to Victoria DPI? Those kinds of reports are extremely important.
> 
> http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agriculture/pests-diseases-and-weeds/animal-diseases/pigeon-virus


Dear Bella,firstly my heart goes out to you in regard to the tree loppers nearby.I nearly cried just reading it.I too hate the sound of chainsaws in our neighbourhead and cannot comprehend the lack of compassion in some people!!!
Secondly,i hope you take heed of the very valuable advice YOU gave Msmely.........
Quote "I really hope that you don't blame yourself for the things you cannot do" Unquote
Am sure you get my drift Miss Bella.lol


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## msmely

Thank you guys again. 
The little guy manages to still fly as he can get over here in the morning and then leave at the end of the day. He'll just have a few hours of not being able too. Even if I did try and catch him in one of his moments where he can't fly, he runs quite quick and goes no where near me anymore. The remaining pigeons are no longer tame and have grown scared of me 

Anyway, I got myself into a situation today and I need some advice. I'm going to post a thread about it but if you can answer here that'd be great too.
I was in the city and one of the pigeons that I'd seen a few times in the past week had gotten dramatically worse. Usually he could still walk fine but would struggle with flying sometimes and he'd walk in circles, wouldn't be able to pick up seed without help etc. 

Today, I found him not being able to walk at all or fly.
I brought him home because I couldn't leave him there but I"m really worried about transmitting it to my pigeons. 
This might be a stupid question, but the disease can't travel through the air right?
I have him in a hutch in the laundry and my pigeons are partly indoor and then outdoor in their aviary. 
If I wash my hands, does that get rid of it? If my pigeons got this disease, I don't think I could handle it so I want to be really cautious.

It looks like he will die soon but I just wanted him to have a place with food or water where he won't get hurt. Also his eyes have lost colour and his poops are green if that's any help as to whether his got pmv but he keeps twisting his neck so I'm pretty sure it is.


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## Bella_F

Dear msmely,

I can't speak for every disease, but the PMV virus we've been discussing can be removed by washing your hands with ordinary detergent. I read that on the Victorian DPI website. I keep frogs, so I always have betadine on hand, which I use whenever I handle sick birds as well; its an anti bacterial as well as an antiviral disinfectant.

PS That was great picking up the sick little one, well done!


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## Bella_F

jaes mum said:


> Dear Bella,firstly my heart goes out to you in regard to the tree loppers nearby.I nearly cried just reading it.I too hate the sound of chainsaws in our neighbourhead and cannot comprehend the lack of compassion in some people!!!
> Secondly,i hope you take heed of the very valuable advice YOU gave Msmely.........


Oh Hi Gorgeous

Its so nice to hear from you, I was thinking about you today! It turns out that after all my angst about the crows nest being cut down, they have one fledgling who made it out of the nest before the whole tree was cut down. He's small but the parents are taking great care of him! I'm so happy today

(Mr P says hi too


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