# Sick Dove



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We picked up a very young dove yesterday morning. Has severe canker which we are treating with metronidazole. Has had 3 doses thus far. The problem is that his head is hanging over to the side of his body. Can canker cause this type of PMV look? It truly doesn't look like the PMV birds we have gotten in before. We are hand feeding him but he is alert. Any help sure would be appreciated.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

Just conjecture but if a lesion has formed in the neck that has caused necrosis to track into the musculature or other important structures/wiring of the neck then I suppose it's possible. Birds' systems can do some really weird stuff with localized infections sometimes. Have you felt down the neck to see if there are any lumps and such? 

I read somewhere recently that Bactrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) is one of the preferred antibiotics for nestlings. He may have something else going on that you need to hit and sometimes you just need to shoot first and ask questions later. If you're giving him Kaytee, then at least you won't need to worry as much about killing gut bacteria at this stage of the game.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, thanks for the prompt reply. Yes, there is a lump on the side of his neck, just down from the beak area and the head is hanging in the opposite direction. We'll start him on Bactrim right away. He is, like all doves, extremely scared and will run all over the cage and sometimes almost fall over. It may be my imagination but today the head seems not to hang down as severely as yesterday. Thanks bunches.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

You should know that you're treading in dangerous waters here. We have had a few of these types of cases come up on PigeonTalk from time to time. In most cases, a necropsy wasn't performed on the ones that ultimately died but it almost wasn't needed. The dangers are that the esophagus can get perforated by the canker and contents/candida/bacteria/things that just don't belong there can spill into the area between the esophagus and the outer skin. When it's down low in the neck, it's bad but ultimately better. When it's high in the neck, there's not very much to work with if the vet's trying to patch a hole. You wouldn't believe the effort that has been expended to "re-create" an esophagus that was effectively rendered into a little ribbon instead of a tube but that's usually only performed in expensive companion birds.

Watch the little fellow very closely and monitor the lump in the neck (and the entire neck for that matter) often. Be VERY careful (ultra gentle) when tube feeding and hope for the best. Somebody (was it Phil?) once said they lined the top of dove patients' cages with egg crate foam to keep them from smacking themselves too hard when they spontaneously ejected upwards because of getting startled. I've only ever had one dove and I discovered that was REALLY good advice.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lady Tarheel,

Yes...to my best reconning, just as Pidgey says above on all counts.

Also, the 'egg crate' foam rubber...may be had of ay concern which is occupied in re-upholdstry work, who discard used sections of this routiely, and or have new on hand.

The Doves can be particularly 'spooked' easily and will reliably knock themselves for a loop or worse on the inside cage top. Dim, very dim light is best when changig out their Water and Feed bowls.

I just got a Dove night before last, who has lacerated his/her lower breast Keel area, a bad scrape in effect, with some torn skin, somehow and was quite bloody and not flying. They fluttered in the darkness outside as I was walking out there at night and so I caught them and brought them in. They can fly, it turns out! and I am about to either put a carefully elected for size of rubber band aroud them, or, some micropore tape to constrain those sometimes anxious little Wings...I have them on Baytril and a topical ointment. To look at her/him, and not their eating and drinking well and so on, one would not kow they were injured as they are.

The asymetry of your's Head's posture would be constistant with the asymetry of the localised Canker infestation in their neck area...and as Pidgey metions, this can be very serious if it has eaten through their esophagus or trachea. I had a similar occasion with a Baby Dove some time back, who suffered from an abcess which in it's case was not Canker but had effected a large perforation of their esophagus and had consumed its Crop in fact.

Anyway, good that you have gotten started on this when you have...

This is an adult or older adolescent Dove?


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, thanks so much for your response. The little dove is an adolescent, 68 grams, fully feathered but appears to have a little left of the little "tooth" at the very end of its beak. We do have her in a low light environment and keep her separate from all the others. That is a good idea about the padding and I'm going to see what I can find. Luckily, she is calm except when we take her out for feed and meds.

We are being really careful when feeding it. I've mentioned before that we use the Catac (cat nipple) that are about 1 1/2 " long attached to the syringe. We're using a 3 cc syringe with her for better control. There is an opening to the right that we can go down. Ordinarily, we go in at a right to left angle but with this one you just go where you can.

I sure hope it hasn't infiltrated either the esophagus or trachea. She is still alive so there is still hope. Many thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Warning bells going off. If you're not, I'd oil the feeding tube before each use. It's sometimes when the swellings are on their way down that the problems really begin to occur. This can be due to chunks breaking off and getting swept into the airway passages or unplugging a hole that would be a perforation as previously discussed were it not for the plug.

Find a way to measure the size of the lump for comparison purposes. This can be one of those things like watching children grow up--if you see them everyday, they don't seem to grow fast enough. If you only see them once a year, "wow!" Therefore, you need to see if you can monitor it objectively. If the worst case scenario occurs, then the little one may need very fast help at the right time which will usually be on a Friday night after the vet's office is closed for the weekend (or any day of the week when the vet's on vacation). Personally, I'd REALLY hate to have this particular problem on a dove owing to their small size and nervous nature because it's bad enough with a pigeon.

Cynthia (cyro51) recently had a pigeon that exhibited similar symptoms over a few days. She correctly assessed that he was just about to go so she took him out on the lawn and sat with him during his last hour. I can really appreciate that as I've done it myself too many times. Anyhow, he coughed up something that she described (if memory serves) as a pink, fleshy thing and then he died. You might ask her about him (Rupert) and compare notes.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, we are lubricating the nipple. The knot in his neck is about the size of an acorn halved. Yesterday and last night he pooped fairly well but not as well today although crop is going down. We are feeding him about every 3-4 hours and try to get 5-6 cc down. It probably would be best to tube him but I am totally uncomfortable doing that and the tubing I have is much too big. The nipple is narrow and does slide in fairly easy.

I appreciate your continuing help. It means a lot.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lady Tarheel,


Why not feed the little one useing the hollow side of a small Nipple? Rather than a tube?

Is the little Dove not interested in eating?

Too, is the tube in fact quite small?

And or, will the tube pass semi-coarse fresh ground Seeds?

The KT or the likes if 'powder' will increase only too well the possibilities of Candida or Crop problems relative to home made and more textured formulas...

How are the poops looking so far?

Possibly, gentle massages of the afflicted or swolle area may benifit...

Pidgey, what say ye on that?



In non emergency severities of Canker, I have so far been pleased with useing the new 'Berimax' product from the country of Norway...it is a Natural Plant Product so-called, but I believe it is made from Grapefruit Peels. Anyway, it has shown itself very well in treating the Trichomoniasis in Babys with no side effects I could notice...

Baby Daisy, a barely two week old Pigeon, had odd blotches on her skin I think from some sort of chemical burns, and, had a quite swollen neck also which I determied from looking down her throat, was in fact Canker. 

The 'Berimax' worked nicely and in a couple days, the yellow chunky stuff turned off white, then diminshed to where none was visible after about five days or six maybe.

The problem with tube or catheter feeding directly into a crop, with the very small Birds, if the esophagus is at all compromised, would be that a rupture of a delicate area of it could be occasioned from the repeated strains of passing through it of the end of the tube.


Too, a tube small enough for prudence, (ad as Pidgey remids, to lubricate the Tube with a little Olive Oil is a good idea to do) will likely not pass the preferable medly of nutrients the Bird would benifit to have.

Unless a truely new hatchling, I will always feed them formula consistig mostly of fresh ground Seeds and dried berries, maybe some Misu, pro-biotics, Vitamine and Mineral suppliment and a dab of Olive Oil and so on mixed together to the consistancy of say a Milkshake...and...

Let them eat as they will from the hollow of a cut off end of a regular people-baby nipple. Oce they are a little older, I let them eat from a whole sized nipple, which they will enthusiastically do if one pinches it gently to press agaist the sides of their little Beak. I cut off the 'rim' of these Nipples sice it is otherwise somewhat i the way and is not serving any cotainment function anyway for the formula.
After a while they do not care about that anymore, havig it press gently against the sides of their Beaks, but at first they do tend to.

Anyway...just some thoughts...


Good luck..!  

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Phil, I'm not sure that feeding with the cat nipple that Lady Tarheel is using is quite the same thing as tube feeding per se. I'm not sure that the nipple is going down very far, if at all. Lady Tarheel, care to enlighten us on that and can you take a picture of the lump OR describe it's placement as to the jawline of the lower mandible with very detailed language?

As to massaging the lump, that scares me a bit. I just read up on it in the Big Book and it says that the prognosis is usually poor for pretty much the same reasons as I've already given. It's just so hard to say how the thing's going to break up and I'd be pretty nervous about rushing it along. You're actually hoping to arrest its development with the anti-trich drug coupled with the antibiotic against any other infections that may be going on due to the possible necrotic tissue and you really want it to re-absorb as slowly as possible. If it detaches into the esophagus, it'll probably plug the esophagus and emergency surgical intervention may be required to save the bird and it's a real small bird. That's probably not going to be practical in this case anyway so all we can do is be extremely careful and hope for the best while expecting the worst.

It is true that candida can occur from a crop slowdown or stasis while using Kaytee. As long as the crop is emptying and getting a between-meal water-wash, I wouldn't worry too much but Medistatin (do you have any of that?) is an easy thing to throw in the mix for good measure if you have some. It won't interfere with the other medications and will definitely prevent candidiasis. If you don't have any, then give him small infusions of water between feedings. In this particular case, you're more worried about a pocket around that lump or even some kind of porosity that the formula could hang up in.

As to the kind of food I'd recommend here? I personally really like to keep them as close to their natural diet as possible in almost all cases but in this one, I'd probably go with the smoothest mix possible, regardless of what it consists of or how it's made. If you make your own brew, it should probably be ground as fine as Kaytee because I don't think we want anything abrasive to that mass sliding by it until it's virtually gone on its own.

Of course, it's possible to fuss over a bird so much that the stress ultimately kills the bird as effectively as the original disease. It's always a real tough call in a case like this and doves are, of course, especially prone to canker.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Pidgey and Phil - I am so grateful for your advice. The little fellow is still alive, very alert and is pooping well. Of course, it has the coloring of the Exact we are feeding it but is well formed.

We are handling him as little as possible for fear of causing any damage to the lump.. Massaging it right now would probably do more harm than good. The lump is located about one inch below his ear on the right side of his neck. It is not decreasing in size. Pidgey, I don't have medistatin but we are putting Benebac in the Exact. You're actually supposed to skip some days in between with this but I am putting it in his food once a day. Right now, I don't dare include any seeds for fear of them getting stuck in his throat.

I am attaching a picture of the catac nipples we use. The ones shown in the picture (about 1997) are shorter than the ones that came with our last shipment. His measures 1 1/2". This is what we have used for 12 years, and have fed at least 200 babies (pigeons & doves) with them. We (knock on wood) have never had a problem with them and they can go down well past the air hole. As I mentioned, the ideal way is to go in at the base of the beak from the bird's left and angle to the right, but because of his obstruction 
we're having to go in almost straight down on his leftside.

Pidgey, you mentioned things happening at night and on weekends. You're right about that but in our area we're lucky that we have 2 clinics that open in off hours(nights, weekends and holidays) when regular vet offices close. There is always a vet on the premises and we know most of them because we take all their pigeons.

Again, thank you so much.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I sincerely hope that it decreases in size over a period of one to two weeks, actually. That would be the safest way because it would give the good tissue backing it up time to heal in behind it. I once had a nestling who had canker of the navel. It had formed a hard ball the diameter of a quarter. It took a very long time to go away but it ultimately did.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, I do hope that it will start going down. I'm still hoping the neck situation is caused by the canker and not something else. I want to get him stabilized before he goes to the vet for x-rays and lab work - right now, as vulnerable as he is, the stress of that might finish him off.

I forgot to mention that I can't take pictures - still don't have a digital camera.

BTW, I forgot to give credit to the lovely pigeon in the above pic. His name was Barney II and was released sometime, I think, in 1997.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Those nipples are the answer to feeding youngsters, when using a syringe. Wow, I didn't know they were available.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lady Tarheel,


Yahhhh...maybe best not 'massage' the swollen area..!

I was not thinking well...

Candida or Candidiosis or what seemed TO be such, ('slow Crop' and sluggish, slightly disaffected-withdrawn Baby or Youngster Birds) has responded well in my experience to having between one and a half and two Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar added to the Gallon of Water for their formula mixing and drinking to occur from. (which technique I learned here on our forum from...from...oh hell, now I can not remember names! forgive me...)

Now, maybe I have also forgotten...but, what does one see if one looks down this Bird's throat deeply in a strong light?

Too...

If you can grind up some medley of wholesome nice Seeds in a Kitchen Blender, add some nice Anise Seeds also, and grind-blend to a decent fine 'meal' powder, and add this to the KT if your feedig method will pass such....and also add some fine Parakeet type Grit...

I can not imagine the slight texture of these would in any way bother whatever condition is going on with their probable Trichonomiasis illness, and, it will benifit their sustained appetite and system generally.

Of course you are making sure to warm their food to wrist temperature in a cup in a pan of hot Water, and not in a microwave...(which to remind anyone not familiar, the microwave can make for discontinuous 'hot spots' which can injur their sensitive Crops and make bad problems for them...)

Get an image for us so we might see the little one...!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

You know, you can get a really cheap otoscope at your local Walgreen's or other drugstore. They sell them made of really cheap plastic and they only come with one size of speculum (the black thing that goes in your ear or up your nose but they actually are serviceable. They cost about $10 and you can look down a pigeon's throat, in a pigeon's ear, up a pigeon's vent or even use them like an endoscope if there's a wound that goes inward too far or you're doing an emergency surgical procedure (as in, "there's no other choice").

Now, it's true, if you're willing to take plenty of time, you can snag a much better one on eBay for very little more but the one I'm talking about does work. Anyhow, it might be able to shed some light your bird's throat down the way a bit. I'll take a practice run later on today with one of my birds to see how far down I can see with it (I've got one cheap one as described above and one real one). 

On Pierpont, I worked with the otoscope in my left hand and forceps in the right to perform what can only be described as an endoscopic debridement procedure of that one deep portion of the wound. In a case like that, you are essentially forced to remove the necrotic tissue because it'll likely necrose more if you don't. I am NOT suggesting that you do that with this bird, quite the contrary. I'm just saying that you may be able to monitor the healing process better and foresee any dangerous chunks coming loose that could end up lodging in the windpipe or the base of the crop. Such a thing may, in fact, require emergency removal but it's better to know it's coming than to be taken by surprise with a situation that turns ugly real fast.

Besides, if you have one, you can check your family's ears! What grandchild wouldn't love that?

Pidgey

P.S. Barney II looks as though he had trich at the time of the photo as the skin beneath the jawline is bare. Other things can do that, of course, but it's common with trich.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, thanks again. The otoscope sounds like a good instrument to have on hand and I'll pick one up . I don't think I'll try it on the dove because he gets so stressed each time we have to work on him, and stretching his beak open enough to get one inside probably wouldn't be in his best interests. I am planning to take him to the vet tomorrow. Will let you know how it goes.

Re Barney II, I got the wrong name, it is actually Barney I (and I try so hard not to duplicate!). I went back and checked my records and Barney I was sick (only 98 grams), and older pigeons had pushed it off a building canopy. When we first fed him he threw up the Exact and dried beans and all of it was sour smelling. We treated him with Propulsid, Nystatin and Bactrim and he got ok. We have had huge problems with people throwing out dried beans for the birds and the parents stuff the babies with them - they sit in the crop and swell up so bad that the only thing that has saved them is their throwing them up.

I didn't know that trich would cause a problem with the skin. That's good to know.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lady Tarheel,

I just was reading your thread here from the begining, ad forgive me, I had not previously noticed your mentioig that the 'swelling' ( which I thought was general and merely more proounced on one side) was like 'Half an Acorn'.


Now, I had a baby Dove some time ago who had something like this, as if he'd swallowed a small Acorn and it was sitting high in his Crop.

This was to turn out to be an abcess and it killed him from it's eating surrouding tissues. appetite was good, and the little one was active and social.

If I ever get a Baby Dove with a 'lump' like this again, my own plan is to get to a Veterinary surgeon a.s.a.p. ad have them open up the neck or crop area skin and SEE exactly what it is and remove it. Their skin beig cut for such an operation is no worry at all and will sew up fine and has lots of elasticity.

The damage such an abcess can do, (and the abcess may NOT be Canker at all even if Canker is also present, ) can prove fatal even though the Bird seems tolerably well now.

Now, I have seem generalized swellig of the neck in occasios of Caker, but I have never seen a decided well defined 'lump' per-se, although maybe that can occur and be Canker.

Now, my 'Baby Daisy' Pigeon, who had a general swelling around her neck, did have Canker and all went well with that and my adminstering the ew 'Berimax' product to address it, but there was no decided localization of anything one would call a 'lump'.


With the Baby Dove who had the 'acorn' - I was at first imagiing it to be impacted fine Seeds that had kind of hardened from slow Crop and dehydration ( she'd fallen from a high nest and so on in 116 degree heat and been on the ground some time) and when the lump went soft and seemed to be gone, and just the general Crop mushy there, after her drinking and eating, I thought all was getting better. 

It was not, it was merely that a non-trichomoniasis abcess had previously been dehydrated and more prominantly sticking out, and with water leaking from the perforated esphogus into it, the abcess softened.

What I am rambleig about, is that my present understanding of conspicuous suggestions of an abcess in the throat or crop area...is somethig I would now intend to deal with surgically as soon as possible. And or to regard as something in addition TO any Canker concerns present, and to treat it with an antibiotic (seperate from and in addition to any anti-canker meds) of some kind also.

The abcess mine had, when examined for it's self and contents, was a firm, dry material resembleing pale off-white/grey feta cheese consistancy...and lay outside of her esophagus so that even looking way down and in with a long insturment would not have ever seen it.

I do not know what causes such a thing...maybe some small Fox-Tail Seed or the likes that could perforate and allow ambient bacteria to opportune. I meant to look through the abcess at the time with this thought having occurred, but I was too sad to do so...

The abcess evetually was deterioratig the outer ski so that his Crop was leaking in that tearing area. When grasped and wiggles lightly, the whole came off ad one could see then the larger business and it's terrible damage - there was no Crop remaining and the esophagus was badly scarred and constricted to actual closure, and perforated.

I realized then, having never seen anything like this before, that what I could have done was at the first, when I first got this Bird, was to take them immmediately to a Veterinary surgeon and get that damned thing out of there before it could do any more harm. For all I kow it was too late even when I first got the little Bird, and over all I did not have them long as it was anyway.


http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=viewAllPhotos&albumID=390805705

Is a link to some image of my little one who had the 'Acorn'...

You can see a hint of it on the Crop area...where it is a little pinkish and less covered in Feathers.

This was a completely charming, outgoing and enthusiastic little Dove and it was a heart breaker...


Ohhhhhh...good luck!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

I tried Phil's link to Baby Dove and it didn't work but I think this is it:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/390806811/390806811NDXoIl

You can use the PREV/NEXT feature on the upper right of that page to scroll through the four pictures (I think) of Baby Dove.

Actually, Phil, a lot of the advice that I have given is because of Baby Dove. Early on, I had put forth the idea of using Bactrim and that may stop the advance of the "tracking abscess" (Cynthia told me about that one) and you always hope that you've stopped it in time. The bird won't tolerate surgery until it's built up some from the devastating sickness so it's a race at this point. Since she's got a vet appointment for tomorrow, it's about as well taken care of as it can be for the moment. It's always especially hard when it's a child.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Makes sense to me Pidgey...

if an abcess is suspected, as distinct from a generalized mild 'swelling', then 'Bactrim' or something anyway which may impede the replicatinos of the bacteria would be a good idea, this then would cause the abcess to become stalled or to begin to receed.

I treated for Canker, since there were suggestions ( I thought) of it in the appearance of the little one's poops...even though it's throat was clear...

Now, maybe I had in effect also co-indidentally caused the abcess to stall or begin to be absorbed, but I will never know.

Thing is, with mine, it was likely too late from the get go, but I did not know that.

Now, what bacteria is usually the culprit in abcesses? Or in internal abcesses, as may be...staff? Or...? could be about anything maybe?

On my little Dove, waiting would not have helped, as she was in effect straving the whole time no matter how much she ate...some food was getting through indirectly, by leaking out of the esophagus and filling the area beneath her skin, and then leaking back into the esophagus. Her skin was fine and would have borne surgery just fine...

Anyway...my into to abcesses...was that situation...

Even a small incision to then remove by suction or whatever means, the accumulated contents of an abcess, might be worth considering to relieve the Bird's system of the burdon of expending billions of phagocytes to the protracted task of it...

Thanks pal..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Phil, 

One of the biggest worries in a surgery like that actually isn't the trauma to the tissue that is incurred by the scalpel--it's the risk of going under a general anaesthesia. As the problem area is so close to the airway passages, even a little blood can be aspirated. Or, if there is difficulty breathing due to pressure on the trachea, for instance, then being under a general can cause the bird to just stop fighting it. Granted, being "under" is a lot safer than it used to be owing to the different gases used anymore, but there's still risk and more for some cases than others.

As to the types of bacteria in an abscess? Good question. Lots. Whatever makes it there that can normally be found in the esophagus that gets inhaled or ingested AND that thrives in that environment with those nutrients. It's a long list but the list is much shorter when you only worry about the ones that are pathogenic. Add to bacteria things like candida and aspergillus and you can get a horribly toxic mess which is why you can be quite right--it may definitely need to come out by surgical means. 

(Aspergillus is horribly common and a bird's immune system is normally able to fight it off quite easily but when a bird is immunocompromised is when aspergillosis can occur. It sure would be nice if there was only one presentation, but the fact is Aspergillus can set up shop in many places within the body and usually surgical removal of a/the colony(ies) is indicated in combination with anti-fungals like Itraconazole.)

"Avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." (I think I got that right) So, what birds normally do is encase something like that in a granuloma. Bumblefoot, for instance, is a condition where a staph is enclosed in a ball and would you believe that it is actually life-threatening? Those also need to come out in combination with an extended antibiotic therapy to save the life of the bird.

In Baby Dove's case, it was likely that the esophagus would have required resection after removal of the necrotic plug as well as installation of a proventricular feeding tube for a few days. That was an awfully small bird to be doing something like that with and the resection itself would border on microsurgery. And, worse, not even a "one-time" shot as it would have required extensive wound-management post-op care and monitoring, probably in an incubator (although it was very hot there back then, wasn't it?). Days and days of extremely careful work to clean, repair, flush... I hate to say it but using maggots in such a case would probably be the best thing you could do. Very tough call, Phil.

Lady Tarheel,

I checked a larger bird with it and, yes, it works. Actually you tend to stick in into the side of the bird's beak and look in at an angle so it doesn't bother them overmuch. I'll try to get out and check a youngster later today to see how difficult it is. I will say that it's best to perform such an exam in the dark, though, as it'll make it easier to concentrate on what you're looking at through the speculum.

Also, feather loss around the site of an underlying infection isn't specific to trich but it is an indication that something is worse wrong than you might otherwise think. It can happen from a skin surface staph infection of a wound, for instance, but, I now think that on the head and neck region it is a real warning bell. In retrospect, I wish we had suggested canker plus antibiotic therapy for Calvin here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11566

It was on the third page of this thread that he provided links to show the bird's feather loss on both sides of the head. I tried those links and I didn't get anything so they may be gone now. I still have the pictures on my laptop and may post them on my webshots album and link them here if you're interested but you may already remember them.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sometimes, just sometimes, rehabbing really sucks. We buried our little dove about an hour ago. The vet said he had trich, and an abcess attached to his jaw which was compromising his jaw already and recommended euthanizing. I'll describe more tomorrow but right now I'm tired and sad. Phil and Pidgey - you guys are the best. You both nailed it. I just wish I knew more than I do.

maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*How sad!*

I'm so sorry you lost your dove. I know you did the best you could!

BTW, you aren't in any danger from Ophelia are you??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Rehabbing is giving them a chance that they didn't otherwise have. I'm so sorry for the little one and for you. We have been there before and we will be there again, sometime. Of that, you can be certain. Embrace every success because it's a celebration of life and it will carry you through the bad times.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry Maggie. Bless you for doing all you could for this little dove. 

Yes, sometimes rehabbing does suck .. big time. I am covering for my friend, Susan, who is out of town for a couple of days. She is the only one in my area that will take in crows. I got a crow late this afternoon with one of the worst cases of avian pox that I have ever seen. The bird was near death, and when I was asked by the rescuers what the chances were, I had to be honest and tell them somewhere between zero and none and that the bird would be dead within a few minutes to a few hours .. they were heartbroken but did understand that their kindness allowed the bird to be in a safe place when its time to pass had come .. that time was less than 15 minutes after arrival.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry, Maggie. You gave him a chance, a warm place to rest, food and water and lots of love.
I am sure she appreciated it.

Terry, I am so sorry for the little crow.

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Maggie, 

Very sorry to hear that the little dove died It's certainly not a good week for many here in the forum

Take care and find comfort that you did your absolute best to help.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie,


Oh, I am sorry...poor little one...

Good try...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Maggie,

I'm so sorry to hear about the little dove. Please remember that you helped the dove and gave it more quality of life & love then it would have had without you. It is now resting in peace.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I cried again reading all those kind words and I thank you so much. Sometimes I feel so inadequate and wish I were more knowledgable but you just do the best you can and learn from these situations so the next time it happens the outcome may be better.

Our appt. was not until 5 pm. Yesterday morning, we noticed that in addition to the head hanging down the head was jerking quite a lot when we would approach him to feed or just check on him. After we moved away, the head became still again.

This is what the vet said:

The abcess was attached to the jaw (where it goes into his body) and if removed there would be too little of the jaw left for him to maintain himself.

He did have trich in addition to the abcess.

She felt, without a necropsy, just speculation of course, that the head hanging down was caused by either an inner ear infection or that he had damaged a nerve. I asked her about PMV and she said that was possible.

This is a vet that I have used for over 10 years and is one I trust. She goes out of her way to save a bird and is not one that will euthanize a bird just because it has lost a wing or leg. She said that with everything working against this little dove that in her opinion we should euthanize. She also said that abcesses can be encrusted around them so badly that medications sometimes can't penetrate. She also mentioned there are some new drugs, that are penecillin-like that are called (I think) 4th generation drugs but they are terribly expensive, and even then they might not help.

She did say that the treatment we gave him was appropriate under the circumstances. That made me feel some better. Having never dealt with an abcess in a bird and thinking that it was all trich, until Pidgey and Phil helped me, has made me aware of abcesses and if I come across them again will be better able to cope.

I guess some humor can come into this. Right before the vet took him to be euthanized, I held him in my palm where he could rest his head on my hand, and when the vet reached over to caress him, he bit her.

This group is wonderful.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mr. Squeeks - I forgot to answer your question about Ophelia. We didn't have any problems. We live about 150 miles inland and had several cloudy days and one 30 second rain squall but that's it. Wish it had brought us more rain.

Thanks, maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Maggie,

I cannot feel particularly proud of helping you because I really couldn't do anything more than say it's real "iffy" and give the reasons why. In retrospect, I think that the nature of these kinds of abscesses deserve some examination.

It's the inflammatory process that is ultimately the problem, the way the body fights the intruding organism. The parent didn't have a problem with the trichomonads--just left them be. But the "immuno-naive" bird doesn't know what to fight, how to fight, how MUCH to fight... it's quite a concept when you think about it that as we were growing up, we were learning far more than what we thought was "our education" in school. We were learning how to digest food, how to own and operate an immune system, how to feel about things... it's incomprehensible, really.

In the inflammatory process, the body fights often fights too hard and localized autoimmune disorders occur. Even the body's legitimate cells are attacked sometimes. But, also, the immense amount of construction materials and immune-system cells at the battlefront begins to interfere with blood circulation. As the tissues within the battlezone begin to lose oxygen due to the resultant decrease in blood flow, the organization falls apart. When that happens, the tissues "necrose" or die.

They provide the perfect food for the one-celled anaerobic organisms that are just waiting in the wings to flourish and digest the multi-celled organism that must maintain its incredibly organized coordination to survive. The question then becomes how do we deal with it because what we're doing isn't working.

I'm beginning to think that rapid identification of the problem is the first step, followed swiftly by several meds--the anti-canker, a broad spectrum antibiotic that will address anaerobes, an anti-inflammatory and maybe a cortisone shot near the abscess. Besides the meds, I'm also beginning to think it might be a good idea to lance or open the abscess to allow drainage to the outside with irrigation and NeoSporin applied regularly and often. I will discuss this with a vet and you can discuss it with yours.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie, Pidgey, all...


Pidgey, your last paragraph there is about what I have been thinking since the previous posts...

If not so much then to remove the abcess literally, then to open it to remove it's contents...and even to also apply meds to it's interior and close, with suitable meds then in follow up.


Phil
Las Vegas


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