# Diseased wild pigeon-should I stop feeding them?



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

We feed wild pigeons and ducks in our yard, and leave some water out for them that I replenish daily. The pigeon flock are mostly ferals, but a beautiful, large, snow-white King Pigeon (with a banded leg) flies with them too. He is a lot tamer than the others, and is either an escaped pet or just likes the company of other pigeons during the day. We think he's been with them for a while, as some of the pigeons are interesting looking patchy grey-white hybrids, and most likely his children. 

One of these `hybrid' pigeons became extremely sick last night. It was trying to fly off with the rest of the flock to roost, but it couldn't fly or stand. Instead, it was flapping around on the ground haphazardly and having severe spasms, like a stroke. It was SO sad to watch it. By night fall it had crawled/flapped under the neighbors steps, and I'll be surprised if it survives the night. The neighbour is a real psycho who scares me, so we are not on good enough terms to ask him to hand the pigeon over to us for care and diagnosis. 

Anyway, after reading everything I could on the net, I think this bird may have Newcastle disease or PMV. If this is the case, then its highly infectious and it could kill a lot of pigeons, and native birds as well.

What I'm wondering about now, is about the impact of leaving water and seed out for the wild birds, if some of them are infected? I'm not really sure what I should do. I'm thinking I should change where they are fed, and only leave clean water out for a little while before replenishing it, or stop leaving water around altogether? What do you think about this? I don't want to add to the problem.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella...The symptoms you described can be indicative of more illnesses than Newcastle or PMV.
Birds can also get VERY sick from eating grain that has gotten moldy. The symptoms can be similar to the ones you described. Only put an amount of seed that will be eaten daily so there is nothing left to get wet. Don't add more seed to seed you put out before. If you use a bird feeder, for example, don't fill it until it is empty and clean it before adding more food. If you put the seed out in containers or dishes, keep the dishes very clean. Replenish the water with fresh in a clean container every day.

It's hard to say for sure what is making that poor bird so sick but it may be very treatable and so I hope you have an opportunity to catch it. The bird does need supportive care and if you can catch the bird, we may have some ideas as to how you can help it.

I wouldn't stop feeding the birds because they are depending on you for support, but I do think changing the location by even a few feet,would be a good idea.


----------



## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Changing where you feed and water will not stop the spread of PMV... nor will stopping altogeher assist..if they have been exposed, they have been exposed. Many pigeon illnesses are always present in a flock and when a bird gets weak for any reason they will get an "active" case and show symptoms but the disease was always lurking there. You can add probiotics, apple cider vinegar etc. to the water and take other measures to strengthen the birds who come to your yard so fewer will "get" the disease...but since you cannot quarantine them, there is not a lot more you can do for a feral flock. Check out the resources section for more tips on getting their immune systems in top shape.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

That's very thoughtful of you and is a similar 'what to do' that I faced with my visiting ferals on the balcony earlier this year, and have in the past. 

On one hand, PMV (pigeon-specific 'relation' of Newcastle) can be transferred through shared food and water, which is under my control, but on the other it can equally be transferred between birds where they lounge or roost or nest in close proximity to each other, which is outside my control.

I opted to continue feeding, on the basis that where there was one PMV case, by the time I'd seen obvious symptoms, it was quite likely that others already had it - it is infectious before ever symptoms are seen, then decreasingly so. I wanted to be able to grab not only the first one I saw but others who may be infected. In fact, I got another a few days later and unfortunately missed another as he could still fly away from the balcony.

With the one you saw (if indeed he *does *have PMV), you may have a better chance of catching him if you do feed, provided nothing catches him in the meantime. While he is still mobile, there's a good chance he would come out of hiding to at least attempt to get food. It would also give you the opportunity to see if others develop obvious symptoms.

The PMV itself will not often directly kill them, but (like a couple I looked after) the eventual inability to forage or pick up food properly, or being easy prey, is likely to prove fatal. 

I can only share how I responded - others may see it differently.


John


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

If Pmv is in the flock, they would fair better if they have food to help them out...I would do what Charis said, food or no food, mother nature will still have it's way, so I think no food would be worse for them to survive...


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps for responding Charis and Kippermon, I really appreciate hearing some advice. Its good to know it could be another, hopefully not so infectious disease. I guess maybe the best solution is to pay attention to their health and hygiene then? They are wild and theres only so much I can do. I just want to be good for them, even if I can't do everything for them.

The pigeons originally came to this area because of chicken owners either side of our house. They would eat left over scraps of bread and chicken feed, but now most of the chickens have died or been put in better places. The psycho neighbour has only one remaining chicken, so he still leaves food out. I think its chicken feed pellets, bit I don't really know how hygienic he is with it or if thats what he feeds it.

When I feed the birds I throw a couple of cupfulls of seed into our yard a few times a day. It seems to get gobbled up quickly, and since the seed is well dispersed it stops the birds fighting with each other so much. The ducks, pigeons, and small native doves often eat together so I have to try to keep them separated.

Do you think that throwing seed onto the wet lawn could be bad for them? There's been a lot of rain here lately, so everything is damp and a bit muddy.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

John_D said:


> Hi
> 
> That's very thoughtful of you and is a similar 'what to do' that I faced with my visiting ferals on the balcony earlier this year, and have in the past.
> 
> ...


Thanks heaps for your advice. I think the poor little thing didn't make it the night. Its the crack of dawn now, so I can make out something that looks like the pigeon under the neighbor's stairs, but theres no sign of life. It looks like its belly up and kind of contorted and stiff. From where I am, i can only see its fanned tail feathers sticking in the air, and the top of the belly. Theres no blood or signs of a cat attack. 

I think I'll just do what I can for these birds. Hopefully none of the others will get it.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks heaps for responding Charis and Kippermon, I really appreciate hearing some advice. Its good to know it could be another, hopefully not so infectious disease. I guess maybe the best solution is to pay attention to their health and hygiene then? They are wild and theres only so much I can do. I just want to be good for them, even if I can't do everything for them.
> 
> The pigeons originally came to this area because of chicken owners either side of our house. They would eat left over scraps of bread and chicken feed, but now most of the chickens have died or been put in better places. The psycho neighbour has only one remaining chicken, so he still leaves food out. I think its chicken feed pellets, bit I don't really know how hygienic he is with it or if thats what he feeds it.
> 
> ...


Throwing seed on a wet lawn should be ok as long as it does get eaten that day.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks heaps for your advice. I think the poor little thing didn't make it the night. Its the crack of dawn now, so I can make out something that looks like the pigeon under the neighbor's stairs, but theres no sign of life. It looks like its belly up and kind of contorted and stiff. From where I am, i can only see its fanned tail feathers sticking in the air, and the top of the belly. Theres no blood or signs of a cat attack.
> 
> I think I'll just do what I can for these birds. Hopefully none of the others will get it.


Sad that he met his end. That actually doesn't sound like PMV to me - they don't suddenly die from it - unless he was very advanced, but then I guess you'd have seen him unable to fly before now. Could have ingested something toxic, but let's hope there are no more affected with 'it'.

John


----------



## Guest (Nov 29, 2008)

ummm are you sure this bird is dead ,as from the way you descride it , it sort of sounds like the way a normal fantail would stand with its chest way out in front and its head back into its tail ..you might want to go poke it just to make sure


----------



## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Didn't see it mentioned, but the bird could also have been a victim of poison - avitrol for one - which can produce similar symptoms.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi, Thanks so much for offering me some more ideas and advice. Regarding the duration of symptoms, we first noticed its `odd' behavior 3 days ago, in the same spot in the neighbor's yard.

It looked like it was having coordination problems, and trouble with taking off in flight. It sat right back on his `haunches' and stretched out its wings over the top of it head, flapped a few times, and then sat on its stomach. We were worried, but it managed to fly off after a few more minutes. One of the other pigeons looked like it wanted to chase it off, but it kept its distance.

I checked on the pigeon a couple more times before I slept this morning, but it looked the same.....belly up and stiff.

The neighbour is awake now and the bird is gone from under his stairs. I can only hope he didn't poison it or something. Would people leave baits out to harm pigeons who roost in their roof? I really hope he wouldn't do that.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It sounds like it may have gotten poison or something like that. I mean, I don't know, but that really can't be ruled out. By feeding, the others are right. It gives you a better chance to keep an eye on things. They're going to forage and feed together reguardless of whether you feed or not, so stopping isn't really helpful to them. It could cause them more stress. I have a neighbor like that. Hateful. She once threatened to poison the ferrals for eating her grass seed. I'm sure that if any of them had tried to nest any where on her house, she'd do it. I'd have sneaked over and gotten the bird from under her stairs. Sad. Please keep us updated on the rest of the flock. Thanks.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

*some pictures of the sick bird and family*

Yes, its horrible having a bad neighbour. We've only spoken to him once in the three years we lived here. He came over to bully me one day out of the blue. He said he noticed that I was hand feeding some baby wild birds and he didn't like it, because they were becoming friendly tame birds. That was a fair enough criticism (if you can't appreciate beautiful ,friendly, tame birds around), but instead of trying to be reasonable, he said he was going to kill them. 

Two of the baby birds disappeared within the next two weeks. In the end I decided to visit their parents in their park and feed them there, so they would stay away from his house. I still feed them every day, and I just love the closeness and trust they give me. In the years I've been feeding them there, they have not lost any more babies. I am not as close to them as i was with their first batch. But I think I need a bit of distance because I grow so attached and care so much.

How do people get that way- so hateful towards other people and animals?

Anyway, I took some pictures of the sick bird. I had my 400mm telephoto lens on my camera, so the pictures came out blurry becaus eof the low light. But you can get a sense of its `oddness'. In one of the pictures, I notice that their is redness on it. I didn't notice that before- perhaps its a sign of an injury or canker?



















This is picture of the sick bird's sibling: 









And its father, the king pigeon:


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Bella! Thank you so much for your concern for this pigeon. I can assure you that it is in desperate need of help. I obviously can't tell a whole lot from the pictures, but there is something very seriously wrong with this bird. It could have been poisoned, could be injured, could be ill .. is there anyway you can go ahead and catch it and get it in where it will be safe? Where are you located, by the way .. if you've posted that information, I missed it. If we know where you and this bird are located perhaps we can find you some help.

*Sorry .. editing .. I see that the bird died .. very sad.*

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...Egg Bound...Calcium or B-Vitamin deficiencys...Sciatic Nerve problems, back injury...sprained Legs-Thighs-Hips muscles...looks and sounds like their Legs were failing in strength...this then would see them 'flop' around and so on...just in itself, once bad enough...the 'raised up wings' wanting to try and take off...is consistant with these when Legs have not quite failed entirely yet but still partway support...


Does not look like PPMV or Avitrol Poison, not if 'standing' on their flat-lower-legs like that...on their haunches...


Phil
l v


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There was one here recently that folks were talking about the "penguin" stance... lemme' see if I can find it.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, might want to read this thread starting here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ve...eet-30401-2.html?highlight=penguin#post325294

You probably should read up a bit and see if the symptoms seemed similar. This isn't one that I've had personal experience with so I'm no help.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> There was one here recently that folks were talking about the "penguin" stance... lemme' see if I can find it.
> 
> Pidgey




No 'haunches' with 'Penguin Stance'...it's a different thing...where they stand 'tall' and or their Crop moves up, down, and sideways, also. This being typically a Candida or Canker or both in the Crop...foreign object in Crop...bruised full Crop from collision...does not effect their Legs.


Haunch 'standing' like shown in the earlier image...is Legs on their way 'out'.


Sprain of a bad landing can do it...as can endemic issues...but need not be illness-related at all...


Egg Binding can do it...Sciatic Nerve issues...





Phil
l v


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear TAWhatley, pdpbison & Pidgey,

Thanks so much for your replies, I really appreciate everyone's care and interest in the little thing. I'm learning a lot from hearing what you have to say too, so thanks!

I see now that it's problem could be caused by a lot of things, and like you said, not necessarily even a disease. Its spring here in Australia and the hens would be ready to lay right about now. So its more than possible that she was an eggbound hen. Its just so awful thinking of her dying that way, in so much pain. Poor little thing.

Just in case, I think I'll find away to put some calcium in their diet. They probably get some from eating chicken food, but I'm not 100% sure on that.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

```Often egg bound hens are found on the floor of the loft in shock. The signs of this are that they will be depressed, fluffed up with both wings dropped and eyes half closed. They will be very weak due to exhaustion if prolonged and ineffective efforts to expel the egg. *Often these hens sit on their tails with legs spread apart, wings and body erect.* On occasions the vent may even be prolapsed, this condition can take up to four days to eventually kill the bird'''

The behaviour described above was exactly what we saw it doing three days ago....the wings were erect like that, and she had rocked back onto her tail. The more I read about egg binding, the more it sounds like the cause of her death. Its really awful!

She is a King Pigeon/ feral pigeon cross. The King Pigeon is quite bit larger than the ferals, so I wonder if her genes play a part in this, or whether it was mostly poor diet? In any case, I'll try calcium suppliments for the remaining birds. 

I hate how I only ever really learn how to help birds after seeing a death.


----------



## Guest (Nov 30, 2008)

most times that is the only way of learning ,that thru illness and death one learns to save others ..sorry you lost a friend


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Bella. Ya know, in that picture, it kinda looks like it has been partially plucked. I wonder if a hawk could have gotten it. I had 2 hawk strikes in my backyard a couple of weeks ago. Too bad. One of my dogs found the first one, but it was already gone, and partially plucked. I was going to remove it, but then I thought better of it. I called the dogs in, figuring that letting them out was what interrupted the hawks meal, and put the pigeon back down under the tree. I know hawks have to eat too, and it had already killed this poor bird. And if it returned, better it get this one, then to go after another. It did come back for its meal, as the pigeon was gone when I checked a few hours later. I hate to see this happen, but in feeding the ferrals, I do run into this on occaision. Hawks are beautiful birds, too bad they don't eat seed.


----------

