# Arthritis relief for pigeons



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi there,

I was just wondering if any one here has ever had to treat a pij w/arthritis and what the product/medication was. Also, would there be a good herbal supplement that would provide some relief that can be given to pigeons.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

Herbally speaking:

Other then garlic, I'm not quite sure if you can give glucosamine chondroiten to pijjies, but they are giving it to dogs.

Any type of anti-inflammatory, like a drop of fish oil, (with the omega 3 fatty acids), once a month would help. I have a couple of products that have been approved for pijjie use, with anti-inflammatory properties, however I have not had the chance to use yet. Alfalfa has some benefits, as well as germanium, reservitrol, kelp, and of course good supportive nutrtion doesn't hurt.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

This is a purely untested suggestion (myself) but one that I've gotten from a handful of fellow pigeon fanciers. It's not a natural approach to relieve pain but it "supposedly" works. 1/4 of a baby aspirin is supposed to relieve pain and discomfort in pigeons, it's one of those "old" fanciers "tricks" that I was made privvy to.

Again, I'm not advocating the use or benefits you might achieve by this method, but just an alternative if you choose.

If you can't get the baby aspirins, then go for the lowest possible adult dose and 1/4 it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Treesa and Brad,

Thanks for your suggestions on relief for pigeon arthritis. I don't have such a pigeon, but was inquiring on someone's behalf, and, it is always good info to have on hand as well.

Treesa, the couple of products that you mentioned as not having tried yet but approved for pij use, were those listed in the suggestions that you posted?

Thanks again,

fp


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

What about arnica ?
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, I can't add a single thing to this discussion. I just want to know what the gorilla has in its mouth?  


Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Daryl and Maggie,

I'm not sure about anica, I can check on that, I know it is good for trauma. It may well be good for ongoing use.

Maggie, that's a vegetarian cigar otherwise known as a carrot, very hard to keep lit. And of course, once I get my makeup on, I'll look a little more presentable  

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oh, damn, now it's the neck thing...just have to get this thing straightened out for once and for all....

I'll be back,

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonmama said:


> What about arnica ?
> Daryl


Hi Daryl,

I have only used the arnica montana for trauma, bruising, and swelling,in regards to injuries.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp - a rhinestone choker would look nice. 

Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think the worst part about arthritis in birds is the causative agent. From what I've just read, many if not most of the causes are infective agents like Salmonella, E. coli, Pasteurella, Staph, Strep, etc. It may be difficult or next to impossible to isolate the exact pathogen (if that's what it is) but it may help to put the bird on a good broad spectrum antibiotic to stop the progression of the arthritis. 

What are the exact symptoms? Lameness? Reluctance to use the wings? Is there any joint swelling? Salmonella is known to cause that especially in pigeons. If there is swelling, is it on one side only?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Pidgey the Poo,

As always, I can count on you to bring up unusual insight to a given situation. This is a breeding related problem for fantails, so it may need even more of your investigative time, if you choose.

I know what you are saying about the infection possibility as I watched in front of my eyes, DD becoming stiff jointed in her ambulation to the point of being lame and drunk w/dehydration and the impact of her infection when "enjoying" her feral status. Her joints continue to seem enlarged, although she is very coordinated in her flight and ambulation these days. She is such a joy. But, some joints still appear enlarged as compared to other pijies. One wing also still droops, although still functional within her current environment and she does extremely well at compensating. She seems to willingly accept the situation juxtaposed to the alternatives.

The question I raised, however, was a breed specific type of question related 
to show pigeons that have exaggerated postures that can induce stress on the skeletal system.

There is a human product that helps w/arthritis conditions through Knox called Knox Nutra Joint. It can relieve pain, discomfort, for humans, it also comes with Glucosamine Chondroitin addition. I don't know what the pij equivalent w/be. If you have other ideas along these lines, it would be gratefully appreciated.

Your friend,

Feisty Feral


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

I think it's because many infective agents love growing in the synovial fluid and on tendon sheaths. When the bone ends (the working parts of the joints) enlarge, they don't ever seem to shrink again to their former size although they seem to become less painful when the cause is removed. Local tissue swelling will go away with medication but that's about it. 

I've seen several pigeons in my local flock that I can tell are flying a bit lopsided. They end up putting out 60 to 70 percent of the acceleration load on the good wing. They usually don't take off very fast in a case like that and probably become the predators' first choices.

I've never actually seen a fantail so I'm the wrong person to ask about that, i think.

Pidgey

P.S. You seem to be changing your avatar continuously. I'm getting dizzy.


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## BrianNAmy (Nov 2, 2003)

This was posted on another herbal remedies site I got some information off of for birds and parrots:



> ALFALFA-- Aids in allergies and arthritic conditions of parrots by removing toxins from the body; neutralizing acids, and purifying the blood. Alfalfa stimulates the appetite, and aids in the assimilation of protein, calcium & other nutrients.





> DANDELION-- Helpful in diseases of the liver and digestive organs. Useful in the treatment of arthritis.


I posted the site once before but I'll post it again:
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww24eii.htm

Hope that helps some.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> FeistyPigeon,
> 
> P.S. You seem to be changing your avatar continuously. I'm getting dizzy.




Pidgey the Poo,

There are many conditions that can cause dizziness besides rapidly changing visuals. Have you run a fecal float


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

BrianNAmy said:


> This was posted on another herbal remedies site I got some information off of for birds and parrots:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, that is very helpful, I especially like the the alfalfa info. Sorry to make you post again....should have thought to look there....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon said:


> Pidgey the Poo,
> 
> There are many conditions that can cause dizziness besides rapidly changing visuals. Have you run a fecal float


Feralpigeon,

As a matter of fact, yes--CLEAN!

So. Do the birds in question appear to be in pain and limiting their movements a lot? And, if so, do they seem more reluctant to fly or walk?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey the Poo,

As best I can get from it, the bird was laying around alot and keeping weight off one foot. The bird has been x-rayed, and either has been or will be checked as in blood work up for infection. The caregiver felt that it was arthritis.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


But of course, Arthritis is a symptom, and not a positive something-in-itself.

It will have it's cause or causes, and, as Pidgey mentions, those causes may be bacterial in some insideous way.

Good luck on this!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I understand the point about bacteria, Mom was a bacteriologist. However, the person thinks that it is an inherent issue w/the breed. Now this is true of many pure bred animals, ie, there is something about the gene pool that is drawn from that some other issues come hand in glove with. Don't think that this perspective can be dismissed. Here also is what I said in last post Phil:

"The bird has been x-rayed, and either has been or will be checked as in blood work up for infection." 

fp


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

NEVER give any Asprin product to Pigeons... It WILL KILL THEM.. Happy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


But what does 'blood work' mean in this context?

Does it mean something more than say, a $35.00 fee sending it to a contract lab, for them to say, "Yea...looks like a high white-count..." --- ?

Or does it mean something more rigorous?

That was my point...

I have seen this scam in lots of people-medicine scenarios, where a fast comparison microscope check of red count or white, and a 35 or 50 doller fee for something a night shsift 6.00 an hour teck does in like ten seconds.

Hence...

"What does it mean in this context...?"


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> "... Arthritis is a symptom, and not a positive something-in-itself.
> ...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Happy said:


> NEVER give any Asprin product to Pigeons... It WILL KILL THEM.. Happy



Hi Happy & All, 

I myself have never given aspirins to my pigeons because I've never felt a need or had a reason to do so. In regards to this thread and my suggestion, I hope I haven't confused anyone or lead them to think I've suggested something toxic that could be lethal to their birds. 

The suggestion to give aspirins to pigeons has been given to me by a few of the pigeon fanciers I've talked to personally over the years. These were people with large flocks of birds and many years of experience with those birds. With that said though, I have at times, questioned some of the "old" ideas and practises. I like to know that things are safe for my birds as well and wouldn't give them something without looking further into whether or not it was safe.

After what Happy posted, I decided to do some online searching to see if I could find more definitive answers. I couldn't find many references to aspirins and birds/pigeons but I did find a few to back up the claims of the pigeon fanciers who advised the use of aspirins. I found out the cats are not good candidates for aspirin "therapy" because their system doesn't break the drug down well.

Here is what I've found:

* *This drug is registered for use in humans and animals. 
* Aspirin can be used to treat minor pain and inflammation. It is often used to treat chronic conditions such as arthritis.
* While generally safe and effective when prescribed by a veterinarian, aspirin can cause side effects in some animals
*

Taken from this article: http://petplace.netscape.com/netscape/nsArtShow.asp?artID=1528

** "Half an aspirin can be given if the pigeon seems in pain" * 

Take from this pigeon site, found near the bottom under "injuries/shots":
http://www.awbi.org/pamp11.htm

* *use of aspirins in poultry * http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/extsoln.htm

* *"Anti-inflammatories are helpful for bringing down swelling when your bird has in infection, but also for regular use, to help relieve the arthritis. For permanent treatment, we opted for Aspirin (acetylsalisylic acid). Mudge has been on aspirin for several months now, and I am absolutely thrilled with the results*."

Taken from this site about dealing with arthritic birds:
http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/birdinformation/arthritis.php

Then I found this, which is pretty involved and written by the National Library of Medicine. It discusses injecting liquid aspirin into pigeons to see how it affects their febrile response.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14606964&dopt=Citation

So my conclusions, based on what I've found and read is that aspirin "therapy" can be and is used in birds. It's best to consult your vet to get the proper dose and method of administration. 

I find that with the "old timer" fanciers they are often right in their practices. They may not be as accurate as some of us like to be, nor do they really investigate the pros & cons of their "tricks", but they seem to have a method to their "madness", LOL. 

FP, I also found out that the drug Zyloprim can be used to treat gout (which is similar to arthritis) in birds. Take from this website: http://www.2ndchance.info/gout.htm


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay then...

Well, good luck!

Hope you and yours can get this straightened out and see your Bird feeling spry again...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Pigeonpal, Years back it was a common practice to kill Pigeons that didn't make the grade for Racing, Rolling, performance etc.. A lady in our club, wanted her "Culls" dead once a yr. so would give them 1 or 2 Full asprin in eve. & they would be Dead the next morn.. She did this for over 40 yrs.!.... So that is why I said what I said, & know this as a fact, & not from what is written on the internet. "I think We" all should remember that anyone can write anything they want on the internet without 1st hand knowledge...... Hap


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Happy, 

Perhaps it was the dosage then...and how many tablets did she use to "cull" them 1 or 2? When I suggested the use I mentioned *baby aspirin, 1/4 of one or 1/4 of the lowest mg. adult aspirin*. Of course a pigeon could likely be killed with a strong dose of aspirin but the same is probably true of any medicine used incorrectly.

I don't believe everything I read on the internet but if you noticed though, some of the references I found were written by DMV's or medical experts.

Again, my advice was pretty clear and I left it up to the reader to decide. I would never suggest anything to a member here that would kill their birds. If anyone feels uncomfortable with using aspirins, that is their option. But at least research the facts like I did, or ask a few avian vets if it's ok.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Happy said:


> A lady in our club, wanted her "Culls" dead once a yr. so would give them 1 or 2 Full asprin in eve. & they would be Dead the next morn.. She did this for over 40 yrs.!.... So that is why I said what I said, & know this as a fact, & not from what is written on the internet. "I think We" all should remember that anyone can write anything they want on the internet without 1st hand knowledge...... Hap




Well, I personally * think* the above practice is not only inhumane, it is cruel because of the bird suffers so, and I do not condone the practice nor respect anyone who does this to a bird. 

There are better ways to control the population of "unwanted" birds, stop breeding, and go and buy a bird with the qualities you like, rather then kill those that don't make the grade!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Happy & Brad,

I'd like to say thanks for sharing, but my god, what an appalling story, Happy. I just can't imagine hand feeding anything knowing that in the morning, they would be dead, I imagine still in w/the others for them to see. It may be, that it is the amount administered that is what rendered the result. Many common things,
that we use regularly, when taken in excess can produce unwanted results.
Take something as simple as water when taken in excess in a short period of time.

I used to have a lab, who started showing signs of lameness mid life. My vet was fairly well known in this area for his work with wolves. He said never to use plain aspirin with dogs as it had negative effects. However, he said ecotrin could be used and would give relief for the symptoms. The dog lived six more years w/the help of ecotrin for symtomatic relief of the arthritis.

It does seem from the articles that a lesser dose is considered safe for birds,
however. I know Brad wouldn't pass on info that he thought out of line or unsafe for his or anyone else's birds, as he is very protective of pigeons in general. So, both pieces of information may be correct simultaneously while not really contradicting each other. The key being ascertaining the correct
dosage level that an avian vet should be able to help in establishing the guidelines for. 

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The woman Hap talks about has to be one of the meanest, most cruel people I have ever heard of. How did she sleep knowing what that dosage of aspirin would do to her pigeons.

Maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

We tend to assume that Show breeders, commercial breeders, racers and so on 'care' about their Birds.

When, often, they care about 'winning' and the Birds are an abstract medium for them competeing with others doing the same.

How often does the 'owner' of a wayward, ill or injured 'Homer' or Racer ever seem to want the Bird 'back'? How often is a drive of even a few miles too much trouble for such 'owners' to retrieve a Bird?

If they think the Bird is not a 'winner', or whose getting lost or hurt along the way is an embarassment to the ego of the 'owner', then they cease to 'care' at all.

Usually...this is what we encounter - they do not care and have no interest to make any effort or involvement for any Bird that did not just 'win', or for who in their view will not 'win' some competition of some kind.

It is all about the 'owner' winning, no matter the ruthlessness or cruelty or killing of 'culls' or abandoning lost, wayward, ill or injured ones.

So, do not be lulled into thinking 'they' are usually 'like' you or me in careing about individual Birds or rescueing them or ministering to them gently and with deference to the Bird and the Bird's comforts or sensitivies...they are 'usually' not like that.

Most of these people could not care about an orphan feral baby or injured adult that might show up in their yard, or 'threaten' their 'loft', where they will chase it away or kill it. They have no interest in 'Pigeons', they are interested in 'winning' competitions.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## BrianNAmy (Nov 2, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> We tend to assume that Show breeders, commercial breeders, racers and so on 'care' about their Birds.


And we have further proof to show they don't...

We just went to the AZ state fair. Their pigeon displays looked like something out of "The Island of Dr. Moreau". Anyone that actually loved pigeons for being pigeons wouldn't intentionally do this to these birds.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Phil, I Thank you for writing a book on this forum & off the subject of Arthritis/Aspirin, of how all us Sporting Pigeon folks are so cruel. I don't appreciate your remarks placing us all in the same category. You are wrong!. You may think your God, & a mind reader, but I assure you your not....... If you would like to continue your arrogant writings, lets do it in private messages....... Hap


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Hap,


Oh, you seem to have mis-read my mention - I did not say 'all'...I did not imply "all" and I did not suggest "all".

I said that almost 'all' whom I have met or talked with or hear about are that way.

If you are not, good for you!

Otherwise, please, read more c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y!

...or do tell, how often here in our forum, has a lost, ill, or wayward BANDED Pigeon belonging to a breeder or racer, ever been retrieved BY that person when they are contacted?

Usually, "not"...usually, they are as I described.

The ones I have talked to when I found banded Racing or Homeing Birds and got ahold of the owner, usually said "Nahhh, that Bird's no good if it got lost, just wring it's neck...thats what I do..." then "click" they hang up the phone and the conversation is over.

You have different summary reviews? Please start a thread for them and let's leave "arthritis' to it's own continuity...!

You are welcome to your own opinions, but you may not tell me what my own experience is.

If you have differing experience, I am happy to respect it..!

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*There is no need for insults of any kind.*

Lets "play" nice now.

I myself have run into the attitudes and unexcusable behavior that *some* racing enthusiasts exhibit. They are in a class of their own, the way they treat their birds. They play God with their pigeons as to who is "culled" and who isn't. 

I myself have seen endless responses to calls of their lost birds that were either not picked up, or picked up and culled. Then there are the birds who end up with our feral flocks, because they were not trained correctly or let out during a storm, adding to their already deplorable existance.

You can ask most of our rehabbers here, many have banded pigeons that were either injured or healthy, but abandoned by their owners, I have some myself, you want to meet them?

I also know some extremely responsible and caring racing people, who do not cull. They care a great deal about every bird that leaves their loft, and they train their birds to fly fast, and return quickly thru the trap doors. They band the birds so that if some do get lost, they pick them up as responsible owners should do. They take them to avian veternarians when necessary or to rehabbers for help, if the birds are injured. Their birds have every advantage as they are not only well trained, but healthy and given the resources of nutrition & prevention, to optomize their safe return to their coops as well as breaking speed records.
Many are members here, and a few are moderators, and I'm proud to know them. I'm also proud to know those members here who rehab the racing pigeons, as well as feral pigeons.

Let's get back to the topic*


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

C'mon guys let's not get our feathers all messed up over this. I feel that nearly all the racing guys and gals who visit and post in our forum are good, caring people. Sure there are lots of questionable fanciers out there that don't care about their pigeons like we do but I'm sure many outside this forum do care. I think that the ones that Phil has mentioned, mostly stay away from this forum because they soon learn that we don't appreciate their methods and ways. 

It's important to see Happy's post for what he was saying, he was referencing someone else, and how it related to the topic of aspirin and what his experiences were in how they were used for a horrible culling method. He wasn't saying he did this to his birds or agreeing with that woman.

Phil wasn't acusing Happy of being this type of person either but Phil, you do have to realize that not all or even the majority of fanciers are this type of person

Let's keep things on topic and let's try to give one another a chance to respond in a mature exchange of words...that's the only way we will get our points across


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi all - back to arthritis....

I like to look at the bird pictures on the tailfeathers network and came across this:

http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/birdinformation/arthritis.php

I havn't had a chance to read all the stuff but what works for a budgie may work for a pijjie.

Maggie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Maggie,

Thanks, that was one of my links in my earlier post on the subject I agree though, the person on that site said they had excellent results with aspirin therapy with her budgie.

Again (disclaimer) I'm not endorsing the product but it's worth noting and looking into if anyone has a bird that has arthritis and you would like to make them more comfortable


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hmmmm..well the Aspiring may be well worth looking into then..!

This might good also for those Birds who have had some serious whallop or flying mishap or predation escape.

We could bear in mind too, that whatever an Aspirin dose may be, say, for a human child, that that child may weigh from ohhhhh, what, 15 to 70 pounds or something?

While a Pigeon, may weight from one/quarter pound to a half pound or so...

So, would one consider an appropriate dose on the basis of the weight of the patient then? Or...?

To me, 1/4 of an Aspirin for a 1/4 pound Pigeon, is the equivalent of 1 aspirin per pound, or, for say a fourty pound child, then fourty Aspirins for their 'dose'...or for a hundred and fifty pound adult human, then one hundred and fifty Aspirins-as-a-dose...which would seem a mite high, to me...

i just checked the link 

http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/b.../arthritis.php

referred to in Maggie's post, 


In which article regarding a wonderful older arthritic Budgie, we find the following mention -



> If you want to use aspirin, please speak to your vet to determine the proper dosage. DO NOT do this without a vet's assistance to determine correct dosage - a single aspirin can last your budgie a year, so the dosage is very small. In my case, I made a single visit to the vet to get the initial assistance I needed. I buy the flavoured syrup from them as I need more, and it doesn't even require a visit, because it is not a medication - just a syrup. Only your avian vet can help you determine the correct dosage.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, that will teach me to pay closer attention!  

Maggie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Brad, that will teach me to pay closer attention!
> 
> Maggie



You're forgiven Maggie, lol  I guess not many wanted to read my long post that took me so long to organize and research...Hmmph

Phil, I think it would be best to check with your vet, as anyone should do if/when you decide that aspirin might be of use for therapy in pigeons. I have been advised by some pigeon fanciers, like I mentioned in post # 24 in this thread, that (1) baby aspirin was ok to give pigeons. I always believe that fanciers over-estimate their dosages so I suggested 1/4 of a baby aspirin. I believe those are around 81mg. This is what I was saying too about fanciers...they aren't very concerned with being accurate at times. 

I think it mentioned in one of those articles that you could dissolve the tablet in water and administer it through a dropper as well...think I read that while searching somewhere. This might be a better way to give the bird the medication perhaps. But there is also liquid aspirin that a vet might even have if it was agreed upon for treatment. 

But folks, it really is best to find out the proper dosage through your trusted avian vet; 1) so there are no accidental overdoses and 2) so the med will work most effectively for what's it's intended for


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


Well...a 1/4 Baby Asprin for a 1/4 Pound Bird, is still a dose equivelent to one Baby Aspirin-per-pound of patient, which seems like a profoundly high dose to me, granted, even though a Bird is not a simian-mammal like we are, and may metabolize it in some subtley different way, I myself would hesitate to take 150 Baby Aspirins because I had some aches and pains! 

Or, if I had a child handy, to administer to them a dose of one-Baby-Aspirin-per-pound of their weight.

So, indeedy, we should find the best Avian Veterinarian opinions on this matter...

The woman in the Article was saying that one ( "1" ) Aspirin would last her Budgie..."a year"...and of course a Budgie weighs what, 50 grammes or something? so, but still, it infers the opinion she obtined anyway, as probably being some order of dosage-to-weight ratio.

 

Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

Yes, you're absolutely right and everyone should consult their own vet if they choose to use aspirins with pigeons. I rarely if ever suggest any medications to our members because I don't want to be responsible for something unforeseen happening. Please understand this....my advice was technically not very accurate, but I am completely confident that the dose I suggested would not harm an adult, healthy pigeon of normal weight. The pigeon guys I've consulted with, would give their homers 1 full baby aspirin for various "ills" with no adverse effects, deaths or otherwise according to them. Furthermore, I have no reason to believe this small handful of fanciers whom I know personally would lie to me or hide possible complications from this dosage. AGAIN, I do agree, that generally, their expertise of dosing is not very exact, but the accounts I've been given have been safe as to not kill any birds, going by (1) 81 mg *baby* aspirin per bird. Adult strength aspirin is about 325 mg. for comparison. Also, the "average" pigeon weighs more than 1/4 of a pound The average weight of an adult pigeon (of the homing or feral variety) is around 14 ozs. or about 396 grams...which is nearly 1lb. 16 ozs (1lbs) is about 453 grams.

I'm not trying to justify anything or prove that I'm right because I have no idea on the exact dosage per weight for use with birds, I rely on you, Treesa, Maggie, Pidgey, FP etc. for that, lol. It's important though for me to ensure our fellow members that I would never suggest something without some type of knowledge base and/or reference. 

My mothers' best friend's husband of 50 years was one of the people who told me about aspirins and pigeons. I know these people very well and are like family to me. He would give his own birds 1 full, complete baby aspirin to relieve stress and to perk them up when they weren't quite up to par. This is a person I completely trust, he loves pigeons and I interrogated him about the aspirins and he told me that in all his 22 years of pigeon keeping and administering aspirins, he never lost one bird by doing this.

In my post where I documented my findings about aspirin and birds, I acknowledged that many pigeon fanciers don't follow the protocols that say a vet, or rehabber would but yet, they do seem to know what they are doing in a roundabout way.

I've rambled enough, I just wanted to make myself as clear as possible and again annouce that I'm not trying to murder anyone's pigeons. I would never suggest something that I was not nearly 99.9% sure of but this will be my last time I will mention or suggest any type of medication to our members. ....Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry Brad, 

You were clear... I was just wishing to explore some idea of the ratio beween weight of a patient and the milligramme dose of the Aspirin and to try and compare them with a known standard for people, who of course, are not Birds, and to note that the dosage then would seem high to me, in that comparison, but, thats all.

I was not intending to infer anything...I just had not appraoched my mentions as well as I could have, please excuse me there.

I am sure your acquaintances have seen no ill effects giving a full child's Aspirin Tablet to an adult Pigeon.

And that to elect only one/quarter of their reportedly safe dosage, is prudence, certainly, which could defer to individual Bird's systems.

It is also possible, that this might be kind of hard on their (the Bird's) kidneys or livers, too..!

It may be possible, that one twentieth or thirtieth or fiftieth or so of that dose might even be more effective or optimum, with respect to the actual way the Birds will metabolize it, even if a huge dose is something one can get away with, with no observed ill effects or losses.

I have no doubt of your acquaintances sincerity, I was just wanting to explore it in some sidelights.

Sorry, I did not mean to seem 'difficult'... or challengeing or anything, that was not my interest here with this... 

I have had many Adult ferals, who, in the Gramme scale, weighed in at around "250", so, I was sort of thinking of them, the size of those usually Car Hit or Dog mauled, where, for me, that is what I encounter far more often than the 300, 350 or 400 plus weights...

And you are right, I was forgetting the relation of grammes to the pound, and thinking that 250 grammes was like 1/4 pound, where, it is of course, more or less half-a-pound.

1000 grammes being 2.2 pounds...so...

Tired, glanceing to my scale which (looks like an old time kitchen scale, and in fact IS one, but...it ) is in 'Grammes' instead of Ounces-Pound, and goes up top one Kilo. And one quarter of the way around the dial, is 250 gms, and of course NOT one quarter 'pound'...!

Oye...

Lol...

Thanks Brad...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks for your post and for taking the time to understand where I'm coming from Phil

Truly, this is a very positive thing and I appreciate the fact you really took in all that I was saying here.

Yes, you've got a full handle on what I'm talking about and I thank you for acknowledging my points and mentions.

We're a team here and it's great that we can communicate properly. 

G'nite,


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Youre the best, Brad!

Thanks...

Lol...I know sometimes I do not communicate very well...at least in 'this' abstract-print medium, so, thanks for your patience.

I myself in fact like to have a couple Aspirin now and then when feeling sore or 'ughy'...and I never would have thought to consider it's many possible benifits for our Birds.

This could be a very good one to have in our 'kits' for them.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I think to that swollen joints lean more torwards parathiphoid As birds effected have a tendency to carry it. Inactive. But have swollen joints. SUCH as on fantails they develop swollen leg joints. Causeing the bird to walk a little akward. Now these birds though carrying parathiphoid. and treated yearly and when at times an active time happens will lead a fairly normal life. Once birds come down and are treated. You will have active and inactive times. Breeding this out takes time. Birds are ruined for show. BUT most times you see thewses birds. Are a few years old befor they show the swelling most full time. NOW at times. some perhaps straight leged birds can develop a inbred weakness. That will have to be crossed out. BUT I still lean more towards the often culprit of paratiphiod. As a cause source to this problem. And agin a carryer will have outbreaks from time to time. THAT is why you do not bring in to much outside blood that you do not know much about. MODENAS used to be bad about this when the enilish imports of the 70s were coming in. NO pointing fingers. but at that time birds carryed the problem. Now Not breeding from affected birds starts the clearing of this. BUT many times A great bird gets used and treatment is done. Best bet is to go to breeders that take good care of there birds when you aquire birds. clean well kept lofts clen feeding habits and preventive meds keep down problem birds. SHOW birds as a rule. are loft kept at all times. AND breeding season in lofts desighned for smaller numbers times over crowded youngbirds brings more problems. Better to have a few top birds breed less numbers. then have a over crowded breeding season. We find that many work on out put numbers hopeing to raise that small percent of good showable birds. WHEN its best done breeding from the better birds first anyway. AND even then. you raise just a small number from the best birds. ITS a slow program building any type of quality pigeon. And keeping that in mind Dealing the facters of colors A person agin has to maintain a certion amount of the workable birds in each color. Keeping 3 to 5 pair of each color. SO increased loft size has to come. I believe firmly that its lots of work just breeding up 1 color let alone several. Trying to maintian that qualitry. SO a base color that can be used in other colors can help this. And agin just the 1 loft color too. This keeps down the problems of developing carryer birds. that pass on the problems of paratiphoid and helps the other lofts that end up getting birds from a person that have carryer birds. Its been a problem for many years. That some treat and reduce and some live with. and pass on.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks Robert, for posting a thoughtful and in depth response to the problem of fantails as a breed. These are actually two pets in question, although I'm sure their poinit of origin was w/a breeder. I will print out the thread and pass it along.

fp


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