# I loose alot of birds.



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I loose alot of birds and I know why. I am new and don't know what breeders produce what. Alot of new breeding and lots of losses. Some birds I know were good last year and I have been able to keep their young very well but with new pairings you just never know. I know I have got mixed up with other people training and stuff and that also does not help. So, I have to breed more pigeons just to have a decient size team.

Well, I decided to do a experiment I had 20 yb coming up I would call them late hatches, most were end of may. I want to catch these upto my yb team so I decided to train them out right away. 2 weeks ago I let them out of the loft to loft fly for 3 days. Then started training. Started 500 yards, 1/2 mile, 1.5 mile, 3, 5, 8, 15, 25, I took them day after day. I droped them at 70 miles with my yb's mon. and have 14 left out of 20. This is a better percentage than the rest of my year for sure. You always here people say loft fly them until they are routing but maybe if should be road train them until them are routing.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

ohiogsp said:


> Well, I decided to do a experiment I had 20 yb coming up I would call them late hatches, most were end of may. I want to catch these upto my yb team so I decided to train them out right away. *2 weeks ago I let them out of the loft to loft fly for 3 days.* Then started training. Started 500 yards, 1/2 mile, 1.5 mile, 3, 5, 8, 15, 25, I took them day after day. I droped them at 70 miles with my yb's mon. and have 14 left out of 20. This is a better percentage than the rest of my year for sure. You always here people say loft fly them until they are routing but maybe if should be road train them until them are routing.


How old were they when you let them out?

Tony


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

First out about a month and a half probably. They are 2 months now give or take a week or 2 (they were not all born at exactly the same time) and they are out to 70 miles.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

That makes since, the wings are strong enough and at 500 yards they are close enough to spot the loft as they circle. You forced them to route by releasing them a small distance from the loft. Good plan and glad it worked out for you.

Happy Flying,
Tony

Did you fly them with older birds?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I did something like that last year, but this year has been crazy and I haven't been able to do as I planned.
But anyways, after a couple weeks of the newly weaned youngsters being in the loft (takes about a week for them to come in and out regularly and another week to get used to flying good), I would take them out in the yard and release them in clear sight of the loft. Next day, a little farther. Then I'd move to other points around the property counterclockwise, until finally I was at the farthest point I could, which the loft was not in sight from there (that was the 7th and last point, making a week of "yard training"). By then, they had gotten the idea of flock flying, and soon they would zoom out when I let the doors down, and they quickly started routing.
I think it's important to get them in the habits early on, but I wouldn't take them on the road until they were routing well enough. No need to rush things unless you have to, IMO.
This year I wasn't able to do that with all my birds, just the first batch, and with the new loft and all, soon it didn't matter, and I wished now that I had been able to do everything the way I had wanted from the beginning. But, I think we'll manage


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If you train your late hatch with your older Yb`s,all they are doing is FOLLOWING the pack...That`s the one thing you do not want on race day..You want your birds to be LEADERS...Leaders win,followers don`t win...It is best to do as others have said here...After the late hatches have been tripping by themselves,with no other birds with them,you can start their training at 1 mile....then 3 miles...then 5 miles...If they are doing well,go to 10 miles,then 15 miles,then 20 miles...Once they are making 20 miles by themselves,you can now add them to your older birds for training,,Give alot of 40 mile tosses,at a SPOT you want them to break for home,if they happen to be with other race birds...Many of the short races are won at the 40 mile location from the winning lofts...
They need to know that area like the feathers on their wings...A training SPOT that has something that sticks out(LANDMARK),and the birds notice right away is the best...I used to tease my dad about the EMPIRE STATE building...What a great landmark..His birds could probally see that building from 25 miles away...But he used to train from Trenton,NJ,and there were plenty of landmarks (buildings) etc, for the birds to home in on...Check your line of flight,and find a LANDMARK 30 to 40 miles from your loft,and train,train,train from there.....Good Luck.....Alamo


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

maybe if you got those other birds out when they were younger you wouldnt lose so many.. not ment to be harsh just something I have learned over time about settling birds and getting them to learn their way


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Alamo said:


> If you train your late hatch with your older Yb`s,all they are doing is FOLLOWING the pack...That`s the one thing you do not want on race day..You want your birds to be LEADERS...Leaders win,followers don`t win...It is best to do as others have said here...After the late hatches have been tripping by themselves,with no other birds with them,you can start their training at 1 mile....then 3 miles...then 5 miles...If they are doing well,go to 10 miles,then 15 miles,then 20 miles...Once they are making 20 miles by themselves,you can now add them to your older birds for training,,Give alot of 40 mile tosses,at a SPOT you want them to break for home,if they happen to be with other race birds...Many of the short races are won at the 40 mile location from the winning lofts...
> They need to know that area like the feathers on their wings...A training SPOT that has something that sticks out(LANDMARK),and the birds notice right away is the best...I used to tease my dad about the EMPIRE STATE building...What a great landmark..His birds could probally see that building from 25 miles away...But he used to train from Trenton,NJ,and there were plenty of landmarks (buildings) etc, for the birds to home in on...Check your line of flight,and find a LANDMARK 30 to 40 miles from your loft,and train,train,train from there.....Good Luck.....Alamo




I already had them out past 30 miles by themselves. Landmarks here are a problem. We have corn, benas, wheat, and woods. It all looks the same from the sky except the cities and that is not on my line of flight. There is a big river right through the middle of our course and that is great for most but I am 15 miles off line so no good for me. Our course runs right down this river also (man you should hear the uproar when I bring up changing the course) but supposedly this has no bearing on the outcome of any race. LOL


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

LokotaLoft said:


> maybe if you got those other birds out when they were younger you wouldnt lose so many.. not ment to be harsh just something I have learned over time about settling birds and getting them to learn their way



I had my older young birds out since march and road trained them out early also just not to the extreme of the forth time out of the loft they were on the road.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

OHIOGSP,I am in the same boat as you...The nearest loft to me is 30/35 miles NE of me...We fly a WSW course(WSW of Latrobe Pa),and the prevailing wind is SW..Well,as you know,I live in WVa,20 miles south of Morgantown,WVa...So the race stations are not WSW for my birds,and all we have is HILLS....And add that I am giving up at least 30 + miles in overfly to all flyers,up to as many as 105 miles to some...
Our race stations are:
Parkersburg,WVa...Athens,Ohio,...Jeffersonville,Ohio....Cincy,Ohio...and Louisville,Ky are out YB race stations......All you and me can do is train as well as we can,and hope our birds are out in front,and don`t follow the rest of the pack......Alamo


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

ohiogsp said:


> I already had them out past 30 miles by themselves. Landmarks here are a problem. We have corn, benas, wheat, and woods. It all looks the same from the sky except the cities and that is not on my line of flight. There is a big river right through the middle of our course and that is great for most but I am 15 miles off line so no good for me. Our course runs right down this river also (man you should hear the uproar when I bring up changing the course) but supposedly this has no bearing on the outcome of any race. LOL


15 miles off, they will still be able to see that river, so it will still help them on their way to familiar land, where they can break off and come home. Of course, we all hope they break off much quicker than that, but you never know 
Also, you would be surprised at how well pigeons can identify things. They're probably picking up on landmarks you wouldn't think they would use as landmarks


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Well we race first one sun so we will see how my birds are coming along then. I think they are doing good this year. Only one way to find out.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Well, I sent some of these young ones to our first race. I am on the north end and the wind was blowing strong to the south so it was not my day. I was 20 minutes from winning but one of the young ones was my first bird home and I had 100 percent returns for the race. That was a first for me.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Many flyers do their very first training toss from forty miles away. If your birds "have it", they will home. Going by yards (50 yards, 100 yards, 500 yards, 1 mile, 1.5 miles) is actually a waste of time. The first toss could easily be one or two miles and then 20 miles. Then forty or more.

As I said. Many start at 40 miles and do just fine.

Of course, it depends on how you obtained your birds, I suppose. If you got them from some guy who had a barn full of homing pigeons, then maybe it is not a good idea. But if you got them from a respectable pigeon racer, then you are wasting time with those numerous short tosses. In my humble opinion.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> I loose alot of birds and I know why. I am new and don't know what breeders produce what. Alot of new breeding and lots of losses. Some birds I know were good last year and I have been able to keep their young very well but with new pairings you just never know. I know I have got mixed up with other people training and stuff and that also does not help. So, I have to breed more pigeons just to have a decient size team.
> 
> Well, I decided to do a experiment I had 20 yb coming up I would call them late hatches, most were end of may. I want to catch these upto my yb team so I decided to train them out right away. 2 weeks ago I let them out of the loft to loft fly for 3 days. Then started training. Started 500 yards, 1/2 mile, 1.5 mile, 3, 5, 8, 15, 25, I took them day after day. I droped them at 70 miles with my yb's mon. and have 14 left out of 20. This is a better percentage than the rest of my year for sure. You always here people say loft fly them until they are routing but maybe if should be road train them until them are routing.


Well....there are so many things that could explain your losses. Could be, with all this day after day stuff, you could have been over training. The birds could have lacked the condition to do the distance, or they could have been suffering from a Mycoplasma infection of some sort etc. You are attempting to reinvent the wheel, by road training after 3 days of loft flying. Every experienced fancier will tell you that was a mistake. 

My first rookie year as an adult was 2003. That year I started with 14 birds and completed the entire series of 9 races and lost a single bird. I assume that I must have had some of the basics down, as far as health and being in condition. I also assume that I had better genetics then most, but I attribute the lack of large losses, not to better genetics, but to a clean loft, with fresh clean air, and not being overcrowded. IMHO, lack of good health and condition, is the main reason that losses occur. And perhaps in most situations, the winning birds were simply in better health and condition.

I also hold the very radical idea, that well bred healthy pigeons, DO NOT require you to "teach" them how to find home. That ability has already been bred into them. For me, road training is mainly for conditioning, and at the margin, getting them to "race" home, instead of simply coming home.

The other side bar, is the concept that one must breed larger numbers in order to overcome the losses. In my very humble opinion, if you overcrowd in order to prepare for large numbers of losses, then you will create a situation where your actions become a self fullfilling prophecy. You will lose birds, until you get down to the number which fits your loft. So, in other words, if your loft and perch space has room for say 20 pigeons, and you attempt to overcrowd 40 birds into this space, like magic, Mother Nature will reduce that number to 20 automatically for you. 

I know this now to be true. Last year, like a new guy, I attempted to expand my numbers to have a larger team, thinking I would end up with a nice large team. Lost more in my first race, then I even flew in 2003. After that race, I was down to the number my loft could handle, and for the rest of the season, and the following 8 races, I lost a total of two birds.

Perhaps some day, I will experience some large losses that people speak of. When that happens, unless it was a bad release into rain or a storm front etc, I will assume that an error in the management occured. There may be exceptions, but I contend, that 90% of the time, human error of some sort was involved.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> I already had them out past 30 miles by themselves. *Landmarks here are a problem. *We have corn, benas, wheat, and woods. It all looks the same from the sky except the cities and that is not on my line of flight.


Now what do you suppose pigeons in Hawaii do for land marks when the birds are being released many miles out in the open ocean ? What landmarks are those birds using ?.... 

And at least for me and my pigeons, when they are released at the various race stations, what land marks will they refer to there, since they never saw any of them before anyway ? And how does one explain our member who never trains, and every land mark is new to the race birds on race day ?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....there are so many things that could explain your losses. Could be, with all this day after day stuff, you could have been over training. The birds could have lacked the condition to do the distance, or they could have been suffering from a Mycoplasma infection of some sort etc. You are attempting to reinvent the wheel, by road training after 3 days of loft flying. Every experienced fancier will tell you that was a mistake.
> 
> My first rookie year as an adult was 2003. That year I started with 14 birds and completed the entire series of 9 races and lost a single bird. I assume that I must have had some of the basics down, as far as health and being in condition. I also assume that I had better genetics then most, but I attribute the lack of large losses, not to better genetics, but to a clean loft, with fresh clean air, and not being overcrowded. IMHO, lack of good health and condition, is the main reason that losses occur. And perhaps in most situations, the winning birds were simply in better health and condition.
> 
> ...


You just said a mouth full. Agree 100%


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Landmarks are just a tool pigeons use to help them. I think this has been proven the the even use roads and stuff. Anyway we have a big problem here because there is alot of pigeons being trained and raced through here. We have smash races and super slow races and loose pigeons like crazy. We fly mostly west and the whole state of michigan flies south so our races and even when we train can get caught up in these large flocks. I had this happen earlier this year, and I know where they went because I got calls on them, they were over 100 miles north and I had tossed them 3 miles. I know what people will say we have that here too. Wel maybe that has something to do with your losses but do your races hit flocks of 1000's of birds flying to detroit? 

So this year our club does an experimnet and decide to fly some races on sun. cause most the michigan clubs fly sat. Our first race every year has never had good speed or returns, I am talking under 1000 yards and sometimes as low as 700yards. Well our first race was on sun was last weekend and it was fast with awelsome returns. It was 1450 yards and alot of people had close to 100 percent returns and I did have 100 percent. So, I think this will prove by the end of the year what is happening to our birds here anyway.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

ohiogsp said:


> Landmarks are just a tool pigeons use to help them. I think this has been proven the the even use roads and stuff. Anyway we have a big problem here because there is alot of pigeons being trained and raced through here. We have smash races and super slow races and loose pigeons like crazy. We fly mostly west and the whole state of michigan flies south so our races and even when we train can get caught up in these large flocks. I had this happen earlier this year, and I know where they went because I got calls on them, they were over 100 miles north and I had tossed them 3 miles. I know what people will say we have that here too. Wel maybe that has something to do with your losses but do your races hit flocks of 1000's of birds flying to detroit?
> 
> So this year our club does an experimnet and decide to fly some races on sun. cause most the michigan clubs fly sat. Our first race every year has never had good speed or returns, I am talking under 1000 yards and sometimes as low as 700yards. Well our first race was on sun was last weekend and it was fast with awelsome returns. It was 1450 yards and alot of people had close to 100 percent returns and I did have 100 percent. So, I think this will prove by the end of the year what is happening to our birds here anyway.


I agree with you too. LOL
Our birds hit flocks going to Florida (we all KNOW how big their flocks are) and we hit birds coming into Georgia........just birds flying all over and I too can attest to a couple of years when we started a week earlier than most and had good returns. The next week end when all the birds are in the air at the same time, returns and speeds dropped. 
This year we're flying from the north for the first time, but we'll still hit birds. Just different groups than normal.
Consider yourself lucky that your group will fly on Sunday. Ain't happening here. We just have to deal with it.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I don't know....large flocks of other race pigeons are the reason for so many losses ? 

What did they do, back in the good ole days, when there was perhaps 10 or 20 times the number of lofts and pigeons in the USA ? You go back to the 1920's and just about every block had some kid with pigeons. And now, 60 or 70 years later, and many many generations later, you would think that the pigeons would be getting better. 

Not saying it's not possible. I just suspect that far too many fanciers are jumping on that explanation for their losses, and not looking at their own management, breeding, training, and system. I just question what explanation would be offered if next week, or the week after, with the new race schedule, what people will point to, when they lose a bunch on a nice Sunday afternoon, when no one else has any birds crossing the combine's race path ? What will the reason be then ?

I guess I just rather look at things I can control, and just not assume that something else I can't control, is out there messing up my birds, and making them fly the wrong way. As a general rule, IMHO, well bred and well cared for birds, do not normally get lost because they run into other race birds on the race course. At least my top winners did not. If some did get lost that way, then from my perspective, they might as well just keep on flying and don't look back. Because if they were in excellent health, and well trained, and had a hard time figuring out where home is, and decide to just follow some flock for awhile.....well, I don't need, nor want their genetics in my loft.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> *Because if they were in excellent health, and well trained, and had a hard time figuring out where home is, and decide to just follow some flock for awhile.....well, I don't need, nor want their genetics in my loft*.


I got harassed for making a statement like this so watch out.

I agree with you 100%!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Ignore that Bogeyman !*



g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I got harassed for making a statement like this so watch out.
> 
> I agree with you 100%!



Well........

Nah....I don't believe that you were ever harrased for suggestting the use of selective breeding ! 

Let's just say that I have a reputation of driving hundreds of miles to retrieve one of these poor lost souls. But, fortunately or unfortunately, those calls come rarely. My way of dealing with the loss emotionally, is to say to myself, something like I said in previous post. For me, it is better to have a certain amount of emotional detachment. Like I never name a bird untill the end of their racing career. I only allow myself one "pet", and things like that. 

Since I am on a roll here, and just to pound on my chest a bit, let me offer this alternative perspective on losses. 

I look at my role, as the Master of the Loft, I rule them, they don't rule me. There are no slackers here. If I were to manage by emotion, I would own few winners. And the SFL brand would be of very little value. Average or typical does not cut it here. Pigeons which become easily lost, starting with getting lost off the landing board, or on run of the mill road trips, are of no interest to me, and they and their parents would soon be out the door. Fortunately, the vast majority of this selection process started many years ago by some of Europe's greatest Masters, and their Champion's offspring, and/or brother or sister, and their offspring and grandchildren are what makes up my colony. 

Now, so much of what I hear I have never experienced. It's possible I have developed a biased view, simply because it has always happened to somebody else. On the few rare occasions, where I have experienced a large loss, it was due to a mistake on my part, and not birds simply turning dumb one day, and forgetting where they live. Not saying I never lose birds, just saying not that often. It's just not in their genes to get lost. You have to intervene somehow, and screw them up. If good pigeons are in excellent health, they don't often get lost, they win. 

So, unless you have some* unrecognized and undiagnosed health conditions*, then the answer may just be that you own some *poorly bred pigeons*. I contend, that the majority of the time, if your birds get lost in a race, most of the time, one or both of these two conditions are the reason, or major contributing factors. 

I also contend, the vast majority of your typical racing fanciers, will look to things along the race course, to explain their losses. And, to some extent, that is why they are typical in their race results. Because if you are not looking for the reason in your management or breeding, you will never make the changes needed for improvement. Otherwise, you simply keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

I know the top winners, week after week, with Champion Loft and Champion Bird's Diplomas under their belt, have their birds face the same issues, week after week. And somehow, they win, in spite what might be out there. Somehow, they manage to clock a bird, tail wind, head wind, side wind, fast race, slow race, good weather, bad weather, holdover or not, blue sky, overcast, solar flares, alien space craft, you name it....their birds get home. 

IMHO, quit looking for a bogeyman along the race course, and focus on what you can have some control over, such as bringing your birds into better condition, and breed a better class of pigeon. Keep improving the latter, and the pigeons will deal with the bogeyman all by themselves.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

A lot of skirting around the edges here. Of stating unmentionables.

As for me. I may never win, but any bird I bring into this world has a home forever. If he/she sucks at racing, then it just sucks at racing. But it gets fed, watered and housed forever.

Horses bred for racing or are done racing, get put out to pasture, don't they. Same for racing greyhounds, I hope.

But then, I don't breed a ton of birds. 8 last year, and had some more given to me this year.

I have a bird that lost its banded leg, but still hops around. "Lefty" sucks at racing, but he has been here for two years and just plays around the loft, enjoying doing what pigeons do. I have a couple more that really suck at homing on time. I just make sure they don't breed, and take care of them. I also have a dog that isn't worth a hill of beans, but will be taken care of forever here.

I could send lefty on a long training toss and probably lose him. But I won't. He always had a hard time coming home and sometimes took days.

But, I brought him into this world, so he is my responsibility.

Of course being weird causes me to do weird things (my wife says I'm a weirdo several times a day). I will try and try to win, but if I don't. I still have to be able to look in the mirror each morning and not dislike what I see (except for the bald spot) 

Ever hear of the poem, "The Man in the Glass"? I read it in an Ann Landers column many many years ago and never forgot it. The author is unknown according to Landers.

The Man in the Glass 

Author Unknown 

"When you get what you want in your struggles for self 

And the world makes you king for a day, 

Just go to a mirror and look at yourself 

And see what that man has to say. 


For it isn't your father or mother or wife 

Whose judgment upon you must pass, 

The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life 

Is the one staring back from the glass. 


Some people might think you're a straight-shooting chum 

And call you a wonderful guy. 

But the man in the glass says you're only a bum 

If you can't look him straight in the eye. 


He's the fellow to please, never mind all the rest 

For he's with you clear to the end 

And you've passed your most dangerous test 

If the guy in the glass is your friend. 


You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years 

And get pats on the back as you pass 

But your final reward will be heartache and tears 

If you've cheated the man in the glass."


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well........
> 
> Nah....I don't believe that you were ever harrased for suggestting the use of selective breeding !
> 
> ...


 I have to disagree with you here about those lost birds being of no value due to the fact that you hear so many stories of people that have found these birds that come into their loft and are breeding the best birds that they have and breeding winners for them consistantly as well ..so one mans/womans trash is another mans/womans treasure ..the proof is in the pudding  and as for goldenboys comment I think it was the fact that you dont even race and that this is your first year of having birds is why your comment was met with harshness on your comment being that your inexperiance could be why you lost your bird or birds and not the fact that it was the birds inability to find its way back


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LokotaLoft said:


> I have to disagree with you here about those lost birds being of no value due to the fact that you hear so many stories of people that have found these birds that come into their loft and are breeding the best birds that they have and breeding winners for them consistantly as well ..so one mans/womans trash is another mans/womans treasure


 I didn't mean to suggest, that a good breeder does not sometimes get lost. Don't forget the other issue I mentioned concerning health and condition. An inexperienced handler sends a great future racer and breeder to a race, which is sick and out of condition. Bird could very well end up in someones loft. But, that was handler error. But, I would not seek out lost birds as a source for my foundation breeders, hoping someone sends out a good bird which is sick, to a race, and hopes it stops in my loft. Call me old fashioned, but I would rather focus on the winning birds for breeding, and advancing the next generation. Does not always work, but you have to have some method to your madness. I didn't dream up this brain storm, the great Masters with strains named after them did. 

If someone does look to stray birds to improve their breeding stock, then one would have to wonder, how good his or her breeding stock was in the first place ? There have been some great exceptions to this, but It just does not make sense to me that the very best breeding stock gets lost on the way home. They may end up being so so racers, but getting lost, and going in another loft ? I would rather take my chances on the winning bird, and if one of mine should get lost and go into your loft, you can try your luck breeding them. I just don't have the time or space, to devote dozens of breeding nest boxes to every YB I produced at the end of the season. Many of these could advance somebodies breeding colony, but I only have the time, money, enegy, desire, etc. to work with the very best which have been produced. Which like Ludo Claessen said, one must get rid of the good, to make room for the better. This is no great secret, every professional breeder knows this to be true.

But I am moving off topic here. I will stand by my statement, that poor breeding can contribute to losses, as will health conditions. So maybe in your example of a great breeder becoming lost, perhaps the bird was in poor health, and out of condition, and because of handler error, was sent to a race. I assumed in such a case, that I would not send an out of condition bird to a race. In those rare cases where a stray bird turns out to be a great breeder, odds are, in my book at least, that the handler did not do his or her part in terms of health and condition.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> A lot of skirting around the edges here. Of stating unmentionables.
> 
> As for me. I may never win, but any bird I bring into this world has a home forever. If he/she sucks at racing, then it just sucks at racing. But it gets fed, watered and housed forever.
> 
> "


Odds are, if you keep every bird you ever produce, "forever". Then your colony is now as good as it is ever going to get in terms of racing. And soon, you will not have a single open perch, and your breeding operation will soon come to a stop, for lack of space. Without moving the colony forward, you soon begin to move backwards. Unless you figure out how to break the laws of genetics. A colony of great racers, left to their own devices, without selective pressure and performance standards, soon begins to revert back to the orginal rock dove, from which everything began. In just a few generations, the birds may not even be able to find their way home from a hundred miles. And the losses from training tosses and races will mount. 

Any bird I bring into this world, has a home with me, for as long as they please me. And I am a tough guy to please. And the tougher I am, the greater the chance that someone else will grant this bird a home for life. I am sure all of Ludo Claessen's birds live very happy and pampered lives. Since he got rid of all of them. Not a single one of them ended up in a homeless shelter for birds. They live well, and so does Ludo, because he was willing to make some tough choices, and look at the guy in the mirrow every morning, and say I am the best their ever was, and set out each day to prove himself correct.


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

You have to remember, Warren, most flyers are not "professionals" and spend $5000 on a bird and make it something other than a hobby.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> I think it was the fact that you dont even race and that this is your first year of having birds is why your comment was met with harshness on your comment being that your inexperiance could be why you lost your bird or birds and not the fact that it was the birds inability to find its way back


Inexperience or not you have to start somewhere, righ? And that somewhere is selective breeding for me. This how the winners do it around my area and in most of europe I beleive, so I'll stick that.

It was just that the ones with harsh comments were people who kept pigeons as house pets, that's all....if that offends anyone, I'm sorry but that's how I saw it.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

I have to disagree very strongly on the reasons birds get lost. I do not agree that it had something to do with the health of the birds or the handlers error or poor breeding all the time. With BOP, wires, weather, and the many other hazzards the birds encounter on a day to day it is inevitable every handler will lose birds. These birds are not necessarily junk but unfortunate victims of events that are beyond our control. When the AU recognizes and individual as "one of the top 10% flyers in the county" and that individual loses several birds on one race or toss does that mean he/she is a poor handler. I hardly think so. To suggest the "K" factor has nothing to do with it (and that is what is being suggested when a blanket statement is made that it is health, breeding, or handling alone that is responsible for returns) makes a person smarter than all the researchers and research the AU and others have come up with??? I doubt it. I am not suggesting that breeding, health, and handling is not the primary importance in pigeon racing, it is. But dont beat yourself up because you had losses that were beyond your control. I can cite an example of a bird that got lost to another fanciers loft and the owner retrieved this bird only to have it go on and win 2nd place and some serious money in a money race. Was that bird poorly bred or sick or handled wrong? It was young and made a mistake, that simple. Why do we expect our young pigeons to never make mistakes yet we as human young are expected to make mistakes and that is OK. (Not to mention adults making mistakes!!) As in all breeds there are not so bright individuals and we as handlers need to pay attention and weed out the breeders responsible for producing these. Does anyone have breeders that produce 100% good birds? I doubt it very seriously. Do we have birds that will produce more good than bad? We certainly hope so, and if we dont we continue to strive for that. Problem is, you have to breed from them to find this out and when it doesnt work you will see losses. 

Having said this, I want to be perfectly clear that I do agree that there are individuals who are the cause of their birds not staying. When you try to re-invent the wheel you are bound to make mistakes that were made already by the same people who figured out how to properly handle pigeons. But on the other hand, if you dont try something "new" then the systems such as "the lights" "The Dark" "Widowhood" etc. would never be known. Just "My thoughts"
Ken


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2009)

whitesnmore said:


> I have to disagree very strongly on the reasons birds get lost. I do not agree that it had something to do with the health of the birds or the handlers error or poor breeding all the time. With BOP, wires, weather, and the many other hazzards the birds encounter on a day to day it is inevitable every handler will lose birds. These birds are not necessarily junk but unfortunate victims of events that are beyond our control. When the AU recognizes and individual as "one of the top 10% flyers in the county" and that individual loses several birds on one race or toss does that mean he/she is a poor handler. I hardly think so. To suggest the "K" factor has nothing to do with it (and that is what is being suggested when a blanket statement is made that it is health, breeding, or handling alone that is responsible for returns) makes a person smarter than all the researchers and research the AU and others have come up with??? I doubt it. I am not suggesting that breeding, health, and handling is not the primary importance in pigeon racing, it is. But dont beat yourself up because you had losses that were beyond your control. I can cite an example of a bird that got lost to another fanciers loft and the owner retrieved this bird only to have it go on and win 2nd place and some serious money in a money race. Was that bird poorly bred or sick or handled wrong? It was young and made a mistake, that simple. Why do we expect our young pigeons to never make mistakes yet we as human young are expected to make mistakes and that is OK. (Not to mention adults making mistakes!!) As in all breeds there are not so bright individuals and we as handlers need to pay attention and weed out the breeders responsible for producing these. Does anyone have breeders that produce 100% good birds? I doubt it very seriously. Do we have birds that will produce more good than bad? We certainly hope so, and if we dont we continue to strive for that. Problem is, you have to breed from them to find this out and when it doesnt work you will see losses.
> 
> Having said this, I want to be perfectly clear that I do agree that there are individuals who are the cause of their birds not staying. When you try to re-invent the wheel you are bound to make mistakes that were made already by the same people who figured out how to properly handle pigeons. But on the other hand, if you dont try something "new" then the systems such as "the lights" "The Dark" "Widowhood" etc. would never be known. Just "My thoughts"
> Ken


Amen to that


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

whitesnmore said:


> I have to disagree very strongly on the reasons birds get lost. I do not agree that it had something to do with the health of the birds or the handlers error or poor breeding *all the time*. With BOP, wires, weather, and the many other hazzards the birds encounter on a day to day it is inevitable every handler will lose birds.


I know....I know....this is thinking outside the box. Much more easy to blame some outside external factors, that the fancier is powerless to do anything about. If I am wrong, then I lose nothing by attempting to find health, condition, or breeding improvements. If on the other hand, I focus only on external reasons such as wires, etc. then I miss the opportunity to improve something in my handling or management. I don't see any danger, or hazard in blaming myself for loses, instead of blaming it on say, cell towers, etc.

I have a prime example to point to, a new guy who informed me that hawks were eating most of his birds on the way home from training tosses. When I stopped by, I saw birds with major Mycopasma type infections, dirty water fountains, soiled feed, and birds going light. They were sick and out of condition. The new fancier could not imagine, that something he was doing was the cause, he just assumed 5 out of 10 birds were "eaten" on the road by hawks. He thought perhaps there was an area along the training course, which was infested with hawks, waiting for local fanciers to train their birds. He thought the solution was to train from another area, where maybe fewer hawks lived. 

Funny thing, when he changed some things, cleaned his loft, cleaned his water drinkers, increased ventilation, and treated his birds, his "hawk" problems sort of disappeared. When a fancier claims he is losing a lot of birds, during simple road work. One can suggest possible road conditions, but I'm suggesting, a lot of times, the problem lies not on the road, but in the loft, and with the handler. 

Perhaps a difference in opinion, and mind set. One perspective looks to things that can be changed or improved, the other has the fancier shrugging his or her shoulders, with all his or her bad "luck". One perspective looks for possible solutions, the other plays a guessing game, as to what road hazard caused them to lose so many. One focuses on improvement in management, one focuses on bad luck. In my personal experience, the healthier my birds are, the better their condition, the better the breeding, the more luck they seem to have on the road, and the fewer losses.

The actual facts, on any particular lost bird, is almost never known. We are simply guessing in such cases. And it's simply a matter as to how you wish to deal with such losses emotionally and intellectually.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Warren: You must have overlooked this part of my posting 
"I just make sure they don't breed". 

I keep these wayward youths (or whatever you want to call them (junk, trash, etc), in a 24 x 24 foot dog cage with a roof and a loft inside of it. They do not intermingle with my racers or breeders.

If my birds revert to their original Rock Dove heritage, it will be because the breeders I have purchased from around the country, were krap. And because I did not continue to breed the best I produce to the best I produce, that being ascertained from the racing results. Not because of the pedigrees or eye sign.

Not because I bred from lost pigeons or birds of my own that couldn't find their way home with a map. My breeders come from of the biggest names around the country. I paid fairly big prices for them. The money does not guarantee anything of course, nor do the "names" attached to them. But I am trying, and I am not breeding from lame, one eyed, continuously lost birds. Give me a little more credit than that please.

I just can't disgard poor performers that I caused to be brought into this world, and have made arrangements for that situation. It was part of my plan from the beginning, and will always be thus.

Does it mean that I do not have a chance to win? Because I am an old softy?

We shall see. I will let y'all know in three or four years time. Wish me luck.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

The very young bird that was my first home last week is not only young. I lost both of this birds parents last year racing. The hen was gone for a month and the cock trapped into a loft 80 miles from me (not one of our club members either) and I got it back. They both raced the rest of the year but did not do great but clocked or at least came home. They were paired together naturally so I thought I would let them breed some birds and also pump some babies for me. Well they never laid at the right time to pump. I ended up with 5 babies from this one pair. I have not lost one to date and as I said they produced my first bird back last weekend. 

So a cock that trapped into anouther loft with a different race and a hen that was lost for a month might end up being a hit pair of breeders and produce birds that I can't loose. 

One thing I have learned is that there is no 100 percent in racing. No one can say if you are loosing birds it is this or that. The only one that knows is the bird and I bet it is a combination of things sometimes. Some are probably lost becasue they were sick, some hit others training, some got scared by a hawk and flew too far, there is a million of these reason and I believe all of them do in fact happen. 

I know that anyone that tells me all my losses are because my birds are sick just don't know me. I am very big on health and do my own checks throat swabs, fecal smears/floats, blood smears. I don't know many doing this. I know if my birds are sick.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2009)

ohiogsp said:


> The very young bird that was my first home last week is not only young. I lost both of this birds parents last year racing. The hen was gone for a month and the cock trapped into a loft 80 miles from me (not one of our club members either) and I got it back. They both raced the rest of the year but did not do great but clocked or at least came home. They were paired together naturally so I thought I would let them breed some birds and also pump some babies for me. Well they never laid at the right time to pump. I ended up with 5 babies from this one pair. I have not lost one to date and as I said they produced my first bird back last weekend.
> 
> So a cock that trapped into anouther loft with a different race and a hen that was lost for a month might end up being a hit pair of breeders and produce birds that I can't loose.
> 
> ...


Im going to have to side with you here, there is no way of knowing how good a bird really is no matter how well it does or doesnt do on the race course.. the factors involved are just to great and divirse to even know whats the reality of whats going on on any given toss during a race or just a toss , to state that a bird is not good just because it was lost or throw off path during a toss or race is rediculus when you will never have all the info involved in the loss itself .. everything people are going by is just guesses and as was said before no one really knows what they have til they hit the mark or what warren said when he raised more birds on his team thus overcrowding his loft saying his losses were greater at that time does that mean you have smarter birds for leaving the overcrowding and are the ones that stay dumber for staying ,whos really to say what goes on in the mind of a pigeon but the ones that do stay and win are the ones that bless you with that spark that posses them inside and carries you to a win and make you or breaks you with the spirit within them ... just something to think about .. I have more but I will leave you with that for now lol  the pigeon that we think we know holds more secrets then it will ever tell or show and if you ask me they have only shown you the tip of the iceburg of what really lies within them .. I say dont ever give up on a bird that gives you its all, it may pay you back tenfold thru its offspring but then again they might just scorn you for throwing them to the 4 winds over and over again taking everything away from them to please only yourselves ...


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

I think most losses can be improved with age and strength. Assuming that all birds are relatively healthy and been flown outside the loft, I would assume most well bred "homing pigeon" would have the ability to get back to their home from a distance if they are old enough and strong enough. 

High losses may have to do with a birds maturity as well. Not all 3 month olds develope the same. I think some losses can be avoided with having birds more mature before taking them down the road.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Warren: You must have overlooked this part of my posting
> "I just make sure they don't breed".
> 
> I keep these wayward youths (or whatever you want to call them (junk, trash, etc), in a 24 x 24 foot dog cage with a roof and a loft inside of it. They do not intermingle with my racers or breeders.
> ...


 Hello Conditionfreak,

I was simply presenting a different perspective in order to spur discussion. My comments were not really directed to you personally, but to those fanciers who suggest that their continuious losses are due to external factors beyond their control. Which I have stated, we rarely, if ever, know why a particular bird gets lost. As others have suggested, the reason why a bird fails to return home could be due to any number of factors. We just don't really know. 

I do know, that the winners *are often *the birds in better health, condition and form. Someone will always want to point to some exception, but the top performance *is often *from pigeons in top form. It does not change the fate of a single lost bird, but in my mind, the bird who is MIA was not up to the task at hand. Same could be said for the bird which is not MIA, but arrives late. Some birds excell in a number of events, and this above average performance is much sought after. It's this performance which determines how a bird is valued in the racing community. 

I was not attempting to pass moral judgements as to the "value" of a pigeon which may end up being a racing dud. One measure of value, is what members of the racing community will pay for a racing pigeon. The more races won, and the bigger the race's won, the more valuable the bird. Bidders are willing to pay large sums, because good pigeons typically have some great racers in their backgrounds. And these buyers, right, wrong or indifferent....believe that to produce exceptional pigeons, it helps to own some. 

Many would agree with me, that among other things, a fancier's skill in getting a pigeon into super health and form, and the pigeon's genetics, do play a role in winning a race.

But, some of these same fanciers, will resist the suggestion, that less then perfect health, and poor gentics can also play a role in failure. Late or MIA birds is a good example of race failure. 

I may be in the minority, and that is ok. I have always tended to march to the tune of my own drummer, inside my head. If other fanciers choose to believe something different, then that is part of what makes this hobby so interesting. 


I admire your love and passion you show for your pigeons. Thank you for your contributions.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

windaidedaviary said:


> I think most losses can be improved with age and strength. Assuming that all birds are relatively healthy and been flown outside the loft, I would assume most well bred "homing pigeon" would have the ability to get back to their home from a distance if they are old enough and strong enough.
> 
> High losses may have to do with a birds maturity as well. Not all 3 month olds develope the same. I think some losses can be avoided with having birds more mature before taking them down the road.



I think the same way so I bred very early birds. There was 17 total birds in my first round. I now have 6. If you read what I did with these younger birds in first post here, it didn't seem better to have the older birds. I even lost one a week ago on a training toss. I had big hopes for this bird I lost. I just can't believe I keep loosing them older birds that was born in december and early jan.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I will leave y'all with these little tidbits of info.

Michael Jordan was cut from his high school basketball team. His coach said he just didn't "have it" and recommended that he try out for track or some other sport.

And we all know how that turned out.

Rush Limbaugh was fired from a San Franscico radio station and his boss that fired him told him he would never make it in radio broadcasting.

And we all know how that turned out.

I could go on and on. But the point is made. 

Warren is correct in that the law of averages will rule in the long run, but others are correct in that sometimes we may be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

The great thing about this sport is that there is no one way to win at it. If there was, then one guy would write a book and everybody would just do it his way, and every race would be a tie (don't laugh).

The great Hoosier basketball coach, Bobby Knight, had a college player who had a funny looking "shot". Coach Knight spent a lot of time and effort to attempt to show and make this player change his shot to how "it was supposed" to be done.

Well, the player just never could do krap with his new "proper" shot, and Coach Knight gave up and told the player to just shoot his old style incorrect form way.

They went on to win the championship that year, with this particular player making the winning buzzer beater shot, with his incorrect and ugly style of shooting. This particular player was also the team MVP, and that last shot was just the icing on the cake of what he did throughout the season. It was not a one shot fluke.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> I will leave y'all with these little tidbits of info.
> 
> Michael Jordan was cut from his high school basketball team. His coach said he just didn't "have it" and recommended that he try out for track or some other sport.
> 
> ...


You picked out some very good exceptions to the rule. 

Michael Jordens high school coach, could have made the right choice, at that period of time in Michael's life. Maybe, getting cut from the team inspired him to greatness. How many other of his "cuts" over his maybe 30 year career made it to the Pro's ? Out of 10,000 HS coaches, how many had their "cuts" make it to the Pro's ?

On any given day, you can win some money at a Casino, but over time, if you play long enough, you will lose. We are looking for needles in a hay stack. A very big hay stack. In order to put the odds in my favor, I attempt to sort through a whole lot of hay, and not just in my own back yard, but around the world. Perhaps if I was back in my 20's and had another 50 or 60 years to breed pigeons, I could be a bit more idealistic, I could spend days or weeks examining every piece of hay with a microscope, for fear one could slip away on me. 

I don't have that luxury. I am on a very tight and demanding time schedule, and I have very ambitious and demanding goals. I can't afford to wait even three or four years to see if an idea will bear fruit. I have to produce the goods each and every season, and better then the year before. And if it does not work out this year, then doing the same thing all over again next year, won't produce different results. Doing the same thing, over and over again, hoping that this time things will be different, is what your typical fancier hopes for. And IMHO, unless one does something atypical, then they will become by default, typical. It is simply a rule of mathmatics.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

You are correct that these are exceptional exceptions. You are also correct in that those of us that are older, don't have much time left to accomplish everything we always wanted to accomplish.

What I don't think of in the same way, is your statement about always having to do better than you did the year before. Is that why even billionaires are still chasing for more money? They can't possibly spend all they have before they die.

I don't want to win every race (yea, like THAT would happen), because you have to taste bad food to know how sweet it is to have good food. (if that makes any sense at all)

There is no doubting that having healthy, well bred and well trained birds gives one a great edge in this sport. But not all can or will go that route. Some (like me) can not stomach "throwing out the trash", and some do not have the time nor the inclination to give it their all, in this sport. Many (as you have indicated), just won't go that extra mile. Apparently you will and I give you props for doing so.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Like everything else in life it is a matter of personal perspective. A friend of mine uses terms like "hobbiest" which I find a tad offensive. I think it is a put down, whether intended or not, for people that are happy just enjoying their birds. There is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Having said that, I feel strongly that if you are not constantly moving forward, then you are moving backward. Yes, I am a very competative person regarding certain areas of my life and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Having been involved in sports of all kinds, if a person chooses to strive for competative success and puts forth a great deal of effort towards those ends there is nothing wrong with that either.

There is plenty of room in the pigeon sport for all levels of commitment and none should be held higher than any other. The sport provides all levels of enjoyment to its practitioners. This is one of the best things about it.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Dan and Conditionfreak,

You both make some very good points ! 

So as not to be taken out of context, I would like to concede, that there is considerable evidence to suggest that there are in fact, many additional challenges we face as fanciers, that were not around when I first started flying pigeons many decades ago. With a 100 million more people living in the US, there are many more wires along a race route. There are many more hawks thanks to conservation efforts, there is much more pollution, and numerous other environmental issues, that did not exist years ago. As an example, there are many new viruses and other such critters, because of overuse, misuse and abuse of anti-biotic's to contend with, etc. My original WWII pigeon corps mentor, most likely would not be competitive today with his natural system he used. The only drug we used back then, was sulfur to treat individual birds for canker. Try being competitive today, without using any vaccinations or medications of any type ! I do not think it is possible. Don't vaccinate for PMV, as an example, get an infestation in your loft, and see what kind of impact that has on your race season. 

So, I will concede there are environmental factors we are up against, which will impact our pigeons in many ways, and will contribute to the loss of birds. Having said all that, what is the solution ? In my humble opinion, one possible solution, is to look to genetics to possibly find a solution. If for example, the K factor does impact our birds, then perhaps a mutation for lack of a better word, is needed to overcome those effects. It's possible...or at least I am hoping that is the case, that not all pigeons will be affected to the same degree. Selective breeding from those birds that are not affected to the degree that the typical pigeon is, may be a possible solution. 

The pigeons we produced in the 1950's or 1960's or even the 1980's and 1990's may not be equipped to perform the current task at hand. Nature, through thousands of generations, would adapt to such changes, or like the dinosaurs, would become extinct. In racing pigeons, we must move much faster then Mother Nature, and create change at light speed as compared to Mother Nature. We must adapt very radical change, very quickly. Because, in our total adult life span, we may be lucky to have 30 or 40 generations from which to create change.

I confess, I use such terms as "hobbyist", fanciers which simply enjoy pigeons, and are not overly concerned or interested in the competitive aspects of this sport. One can enjoy golf as an example, without the motivation of a Tiger Woods. But, it is also very unlikely, that someone will beat him on the golf course, who has not put forth a great deal of effort into mastering the game. Suggesting to someone, who enjoys golf, that they are not a professional like Tiger Woods who eats, sleeps and thinks about golf every waking hour, I don't think is a put down, as very few people in the world do. That is part of the reason Tiger is the $100 Million dollar a year man. Besides his natural talent, he simply wanted it more then anyone else. There may be exceptions, but for the most part, I think everyone can agree, that people who are exceptional at whatever they do, in all walks of life, are highly motivated and passionate in what they do. It seems to be a key ingredient to success in all walks of life. Pigeon keeping is no different. 

In conclusion, in our particular sport, the great advances in our sport, has come from individuals who as handlers and breeders, have been highly motivated, to overcome all those challenges that our pigeons must face. They developed better pigeons, and better systems, and better management practices. Whether one chooses to attempt to find a breeding, or management solution to the challenge of YB losses, is a matter of personal choice. I am of the opinion, that a breeding and/or management solution does exist. And some of the World's greatest Champions are closer to the solutions then the rest of us, and that is why they are Champions.

And that is about all I can add to the discussion. Thanks for letting me express my perspective.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

In all this discussion, I get two points. There are some things you can control, (breeding, training, health....) and some things you can't, (hawks, wires, weather....) So like Warren said, focus on what you can control, work to improve it each and every year, correct any mistakes found, then your losses will be less and less. But because of the things you cannot control, you will still have losses.

The second point I get is: life is a beautiful thing and you never know what to expect so always be on the lookout for wonder. Be it a skinny kid cut from his high school team proving the coach and the world wrong, to a bird that may seem worthless proving his breeder wrong. But, like learning said, there is something in pigeons for everyone. And no one person is right or wrong, just different from their perspective. The wonder is what holds us together while we deal with the s**t life can throw at us. So enjoy life and keep scraping.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Sorry Warren!

I didn't even know you used the hobbiest term. I was referring to another friend of mine! It's all in how it is used. This gentleman deffinitely uses it as a derogatory term.

Wasn't referring to you!

Dan


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

the more I read within this thread other then the breeding I really do believe the health of these birds plays the majority of how well most birds do in their ability to find their way home ...I believe even if a bird is feeling off by an inkling they could easily be throw off course in their destination homewards .. that plus every other factor out there that is against them it could be the difference between life and death for even a champion bird .. just yesterday I was watching someones birds on a toss fly over my house , there were two coopers circling high above but right in their path ,this flock of 12 birds took the initiative to dive bomb this cooper not once but three times before heading on there way homeward throwing that coopers hawk totally off .. to me thats a sure sign of good health on the part of that flock and a drive to get home that really counts


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Big T said:


> In all this discussion, I get two points. There are some things you can control, (breeding, training, health....) and some things you can't, (hawks, wires, weather....) So like Warren said, focus on what you can control, work to improve it each and every year, correct any mistakes found, then your losses will be less and less. But because of the things you cannot control, you will still have losses.
> 
> The second point I get is: life is a beautiful thing and you never know what to expect so always be on the lookout for wonder. Be it a skinny kid cut from his high school team proving the coach and the world wrong, to a bird that may seem worthless proving his breeder wrong. But, like learning said, there is something in pigeons for everyone. And no one person is right or wrong, just different from their perspective. The wonder is what holds us together while we deal with the s**t life can throw at us. So enjoy life and keep scraping.


Big T. "They" say that brevity is the essence of wit. If that is true, you have a lot of wit in you.

You said it all, very well and in a nutshell.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Big T. "They" say that brevity is the essence of wit. If that is true, you have a lot of wit in you.
> 
> You said it all, very well and in a nutshell.


Shucks....he may have said more in those couple of lines, then I was able to communicate in six posts !!....


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Along this line of discusion there was a recient study done that they monitored brain signals that are for navagation in pigeons. Anyway they proved that the birds use alot less signals when with a flock. It is like if they are with other birds they don't think as much.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

ohiogsp said:


> Along this line of discusion there was a recient study done that they monitored brain signals that are for navagation in pigeons. Anyway they proved that the birds use alot less signals when with a flock. *It is like if they are with other birds they don't think as much*.


Like me, when I am with the wife.

God Bless,
Tony


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Big T said:


> Like me, when I am with the wife.
> 
> God Bless,
> Tony


So that's the secret to a happy marriage!!! 

Dan


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## Tennman1 (Mar 31, 2009)

learning said:


> So that's the secret to a happy marriage!!!
> 
> Dan


the 5 words every husband needs to learn and perfect," you are probably correct dear".


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