# Supplements, medicines, grit, feed



## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Till this morning I had 8 birds in my loft and added two more today. This is how I fed them:

Food:
1. Around 8:30 am - handful of corn (one handful for the entire flock)
2. Around 9:00 am - foxtail millet, pearl millet, wheat, raw rice, paddy mix in ratio 1:1:1:0.5:0.5
3. Around 5:00 pm - the same mix as above
Usually there are no left-overs, even if there are it is only raw rice which they feed on some time later

Water:
Always a bowl of fresh water (changed every day in the morning)

Medicine:
1. 5ml of Meriquin mixed in a litre of water - fed once a week

Grit:
A mix of ground (not into a fine powder but small granules) of red brick, charcoal and coarse river sand with small pebbles. No commercial grit sold in my place and no availability of oyster shells etc. I am trying to get few limestones.

Kindly advise on these:
a> whether this pattern in fine?
b> do i need to improve the quality of the feed?
c> what about supplements? if any, pl give me the names (of those available in India) along with dosage?
d> what about the medicines? One guy was telling me that i needed to add B-Complex and some vermicon syrup.
e> is my grit fine? Or should i improve it?

As I plan to add more birds and some of the pairs might start breeding I want to have healthy and happy birds plus I want to train the young to home even if let out of the aviary (including the fancy breeds), I request your suggestions/advice. 

Thanks in advance.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

I would add more variety to the feed mix if you can - the more types of seeds there are the more different nutrients they will get

I don't know what is available in India, maybe Jass can guide you better.
They def need more protein imo - things like peas and legumes, but then again better wait to see what he tells you

What is that medicine you mentioned?? WHat is it for

My birds do well on garlic in the water once a week

And ACV in the water once a week also

I also use an oregano based product called Ropa-B that I find very good as a preventive. They get it once a week also

B-complexes and animo acids are very imp for breeding and moulting birds

I get mine in the form of vit supplelments with pro bio and electrolytes 

Or in my mineral powder which has a lot of vits added

I also have a protein rich pellet mix I give them when breeding that has a lot of added amino acids and B-complexes - even though they don't eat very much of it......

Brewers yeast is a good way to give them a boost of b-complex and other good stuff - like once a week (or less) on the food esp in breeding and moulting


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Useful info, let me request/wait for Jass to reply with India specific meds, feed etc. This medicine is supposed to be an antibiotic.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

I wouldn't recommend giving a low dose antibiotic once a week

It won't kill anything and it can create super reisistant strains of whatever bacteria etc it is supposed to be preventing

Garlic, ACV and the oregano product are all natural 'deterrants' for a lot of pigeon problems - inc canker, cocci, salmonella, fungal infections etc

They are not a cure, but they are a good preventive

I only give actual medicines as preventive before breeding - I give canker med always before eggs hatch or they might pass canker onto their babies which are difficult to treat. But I don't give just one day. I give a full 5 day course.

Many people give cocci meds preventive also before breeding/moulting or times of stress.

I give wormers about 2 times a year. And spray for lice on new birds and when I see feather damage.

I put ivermectin in their bath water once a week to kill other parasites


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

What is ACV? Its time for me to make a serious list of things to do.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ACV is apple cider vinegar. 
A handful at a time isn't enough for 8 birds. Each should be getting about 1 to 1 1/2 oz. daily. Don't think a few handfuls a day is that much. 
And why are you giving them an antibiotic once weekly? You shouldn't be giving antibiotics unless they are sick. As was mentioned, the bacteria will build up a resistance to it, and when you need it, it won't work.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

I will stop feeding them this Meriquin drug, could gather the below info about it:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Enrofloxacin (Baytril®)
By: Dr. Mark Papich

Overview

Enrofloxacin is a broad-spectrum antibiotic used to treat infections in animals caused by susceptible bacteria. 
Enrofloxacin belongs to a general class of antibiotics known as fluoroquinolones. Other related drugs in this class include ciprofloxacin.
Enrofloxacin is thought to inhibit the synthesis of DNA within the bacteria, resulting in bacterial death.
Enrofloxacin is a prescription drug and can only be obtained from a veterinarian or by prescription from a veterinarian.

Uses of Enrofloxacin

Enrofloxacin is used to treat a variety of infections, including skin infections, urinary tract infections, respiratory infections and wound infections caused by susceptible bacteria. 
Enrofloxacin is not effective for treating infections caused by viruses, parasites or molds.

---------------------------------------------------------------


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

I am consistently getting all sorts of wrong information from the breeders in my area. I am not sure if they are doing it on purpose or are not knowledgeable enough. 

Initially i will start doing these:
1. Put garlic in the water once a week, but how much?
2. Put oregano leaves in the water once a week, oregano grows in our house, but how much?
3. Will see if ACV in available locally and use it once a week, again how much?

As for dewormers and other medicines I will understand things better and discuss further. Thanks for all the vital info.

Same with the feed mix, let me figure out what are all the stuff available locally and within my means, then i will request for further assistance.

Thanks folks. Its really interesting to learn small things daily.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Enrofloxacin (Baytril®) is a good drug to have on hand when you need to treat them, so definitely keep it but do not give it as a preventive.


Many people do things in many ways, and unfortunately a lot of people do things based on the results they see with their eyes, right now, and do not think about what they are doing properly.

A lot of people with racing pigeons have a bad habit of giving canker medicine weekly, cocci before or after every race, a pill for this, a pill for that instead of working on getting a healthy bird.

All medicines are pretty toxic. So if you give your bird canker meds every week for three years he might never get canker but he will probably die from liver damage, or come down with a canker that is really bad and does not respond to the medicines.

Giving low does antibiotics to your birds is like giving the sickness a vaccination against the antibiotic

You also need to get an idea of who you are talking to when getting advice from people (including here). Most people who spend their time looking on line and entering a forum on pigeons and pigeon care are 'pet owners' who have pigeons, or breeders/racers that already are in the mentality of looking for information.

Many people I speak to locally (not all) do not do any research, try something out for a few weeks, if they like it they keep it, if they don't they stop it, without actual thought as to what they are doing. And then they swear by it and swear they win races from this medicine, but when you step back and look at everything they are doing it is easy to find other reasons why they are winning races that has nothing to do with the medicine.

Also many racers here easily cull their birds. So instead of getting everyone healthy they just eliminate the ones who aren't. Something I really do not agree with because one of the first new birds I had a problem with and was sick for a long time (in quarantine) has become one of my best males and best show birds. I had a racer tell me he doesn't take care of his birds when they get pox, if they live their are survivors, if they die they were weak........excpet that flying and racing ability have nothing to do with the pox so he could have lost many excellent racers because he never bothered to help them through it......

I will see if I can find out info on how to prepare the oregano. I buy it in a bottle ready made, but people do give teas to their birds so perhaps a tea of oregano will be a good replacement.

ACV like Jay said is apple cider vinegar - it is good because it is acidic and that is good for good bacteria and bad for bad bacteria and even things like canker. There is a shop here that cells pH solutions for drinking water. I prefer the ACV because they get other nutrients from it also besides the acidity.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> I am consistently getting all sorts of wrong information from the breeders in my area. I am not sure if they are doing it on purpose or are not knowledgeable enough.
> 
> Probably a bit of both. Also many breeders/racers i talk to seem to think they need to do their own thing, so they invent these weird and random things just so they can say, I win because of that
> 
> ...


An imp thing to remember is that their diet has to be balanced in terms of proteins, fat etc. So see if you can find out this information for your local seeds. I can help you with some of the common seeds but it depends on what you find


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

sorry for delay in replying. I never entered this thread. Dunno Y 
Till this morning I had 8 birds in my loft and added two more today. This is how I fed them:

Food:
1. Around 8:30 am - handful of corn (one handful for the entire flock)
2. Around 9:00 am - foxtail millet, pearl millet, wheat, raw rice, paddy mix in ratio 1:1:1:0.5:0.5
3. Around 5:00 pm - the same mix as above
Usually there are no left-overs, even if there are it is only raw rice which they feed on some time later
according to your climate
Your feedmix will be good if you include
5-8%yellow corn
15%peas+legumes. If you can't get dried field peas then add 10% moong or kali daal,soybean and other types of legumes
20%barley
10%wheat
5%calf manna
5%paddy-unhusked rice. (Please don't give your pigeons raw rice. They are not good for them. If you wanna include raw rice in their feed then it should not exceed 2-5% of the whole feed.)
20%oil bearing seeds like flax,lin,mustard,safflower,sunflower for nutrition etc.
10% sorgham(jowar)
10%pearl millet(bajra)
Water:
Always a bowl of fresh water (changed every day in the morning)
please pull out the water container late at night. Wash it. And let it stay dry overnight daily. Best if you sanitize it
Medicine:
1. 5ml of Meriquin mixed in a litre of water - fed once a week
NO to medicine like enrofloxacine if birds don't need it. Not only resistance by bacteria but it will also destroy your birds gut flora and will give them candida
Grit:
A mix of ground (not into a fine powder but small granules) of red brick, charcoal and coarse river sand with small pebbles. No commercial grit sold in my place and no availability of oyster shells etc. I am trying to get few limestones.
good work. Add 2-5% salt in it. Also put your grit in oven for few minutes before giving it to your birds to kill bacteria,germs and worm eggs. If you can't avail oyster shells then try chicken egg shells and cuttle fish bones. Give your birds calcium with vitamin D3 also

Kindly advise on these:
a> whether this pattern in fine?
b> do i need to improve the quality of the feed?
c> what about supplements? if any, pl give me the names (of those available in India) along with dosage?
You can easily get B-complex vitamins. I use co-ba-dex forte(vet). There is Vimeral and verol vitamins/minerals supplements,which your birds will need. Do not give your birds any supplements which have sugared or aritificai flavor, sweet taste or color
d> what about the medicines? One guy was telling me that i needed to add B-Complex and some vermicon syrup.
e> is my grit fine? Or should i improve it?

As I plan to add more birds and some of the pairs might start breeding I want to have healthy and happy birds plus I want to train the young to home even if let out of the aviary (including the fancy breeds), I request your suggestions/advice.
In hot weather garlic rots quicly. You will need to change the drinking water twice/thrice on the day you give garlic in water.

ACV should be organic in nature,not non-fruit vinegar or "khara soda or sirka". You can buy Braags organic ACV online available in dehli,mumbai and other big cities. If you don't get ACV you can have acetic acid.
PROBIOTICS are very essential and of outmost importance to keep birds healthy.
Make a cycle to give products to your pigeons(without overdoing). Give your birds these things turn wise with a gap of 2 days. Because given on continous days product can react to each other and stress liver and kidney.

Also DEWORM YOUR BIRDS once in six months if they have worms. I've never seen a pigeon in my area who don't have worms


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

Few suggestions are :-
1.Keep the loft dry .
(Even if the loft is dirty,the pigeons will not get sick if its kept extremely dry).
Moisture inside your loft is your biggest enemy .
2.Make sure Rodents don't get inside the loft.
3.Sunlight is your pigeons best friend,make sure they get it.
4.Make sure the loft is well ventilated and not overcrowded,it will keep the respiratory infections,One eye cold,Ornithosis etc away from your loft.
5.If you keeping flying breeds and if there are no hawk issues IN YOUR AREA fly them outside regularly,it keeps them healthy.
6.Change water daily at-least once,use drinkers such that poop wont fall into them.
7.Feed them only as much as they can eat in 20 minutes after this take away the food tray and then in the coming days provide them only that much quantity of food which they will finish in 20 minutes ,feed them twice daily.One of the main reason for sickness is eating poop mixed food which is allowed to stay in the loft for extended time.
8.Don't use medications(Exception is Dewormers),unless you know what you are treating for.Overuse of antibiotics will put your loft in danger on the long-run.In my loft,i don't treat young birds less than 3 months.By following this,your future generation or family of birds will be very strong immunity wise .It may appear cruel,but if you are planning to keep and breed a family of birds as a long term hobby,i will suggest You to keep some criterias to be strictly followed, by which every year your quality of birds will improve in health and other traits which you want .
9.Never buy new birds in a hurry,even if you are tempted.Keep a few number of birds,breed them and create a family of healthy birds.
10.Once you have a family of birds,don't put newly brought bird inside your home loft straightaway.Keep them in a separate area and quarantine them for atleast 6 weeks,make sure they are dewormed.
11.The list of suggestions are endless


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thanks a ton Dr. Wonderful piece of advice.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

My aviary is very much sunny and the loft always dry except for the latest droppings. Plenty of air circulation also as it is housed in my balcony and two sides and the roof are open(covered by nets) but i plan to cover both the sides with net fabric in order to make the birds feel secure. Will follow your other points Dr.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Jass, thank you. Very useful and explicit info. I still need few clarifications. 

Calcium with vitamin D3, acetic acid - are these sold in pharmacies? Can you suggest some names/brands?

How do i know my birds have worms?


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thanks ThePigeonGene. I have got my hands full of imp info from all you guys today. Very useful.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> Jass, thank you. Very useful and explicit info. I still need few clarifications.
> 
> Calcium with vitamin D3, acetic acid - are these sold in pharmacies? Can you suggest some names/brands?
> 
> How do i know my birds have worms?


They sell liquid calcium on vet med shops. Some names like ostovet,calcimust etc. If you don't get them then ask for Cipcal-500 oyster shell tablets. They're easily available and have vitamin D3 in them which helps in absorbing calcium into the system. One Cipcal-500 tablet can be cut into pieces for 12 pigeons.
They sell acetic acid in powder form. Its a powder just like boric acid. Half a teaspoon to a gallon of water is good.

Best way to find out if your birds have worms or not, is getting the droppings tested. Faecal flotation will reveal the exact type of worms your birds may have. There's an advantage in using a specific dewormer but if that's not possible use a broad spectrum dewormer that kills all types of worms. I use bendystar,in rotation with pyrantel pamoate(nemocid) and ivermectin(hi-tek or ivomec). Not all dewormers are safe for pigeons so choose your dewormer very carefully. People have lost their pigeons using those dewormers which are safe for chicken and parrots. Ivermectin,pyrantel pamoate and praziquantel are the ones safe for pigeons/doves.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Let me check the availability of these meds. To my knowledge there are no vets for pigeons in our area but there must be some for chicken, cows and dogs. There is a government run vertinary hospital. I am not too sure if they would be of any help but i will try them. Once i return i'll check these out and decide further.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

I will figure out the feed mix and the supplements tomorrow and start looking for them. Meanwhile, water which is supplied to us by the government is certainly not potable and we have a RO plant to purify it. Can I give the same RO processed water to the birds? So far, I've been giving them in the same state as we receive.

We also have a tube well but this water is used for only watering the plants, so i can use this source too but which is the safest for the birds?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

For me,purified water is good for birds. Because there are heavy metals like zinc in water that may not be good for birds+germs,bacteria etc.
But purifying water makes it devoid of some imp minerals which can be supplemented with use of electrolytes and mineral rich grit.
Thanks


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jass SamOplay said:


> For me,purified water is good for birds. Because there are heavy metals like zinc in water that may not be good for birds+germs,bacteria etc.
> But purifying water makes it devoid of some imp minerals which can be supplemented with use of electrolytes and mineral rich grit.
> Thanks


*^ ^ This is important too! I won't even let my dog drink tap water.*


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

It depends on how undrinkable your tap water is.

For example our state water is not considered potable, and they won't give it to you in a restaurant but in a pinch, we drink it (doesn't taste grand) and we give it to the animals daily, without problems.

For us the water varies considerably - as most is purified sea water, it varies a lot depending on where you live.

If in doubt about how bad your water is, I would give them the purified water.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

I will give them purified water and find the best mineral supplement. Thank you.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

What is calf manna? Nobody seems to know about it and there is not translation for it in tamil anywhere


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

This evening i had a nice time in the sea when i got a strange? idea of trying coarse sea sand as part of the grit. I brought back a bottle full of sand. It contains lots of crushed sea shells and small pebbles apart from sand. It certainly should contain salt in it. Can i use this as an ingredient of grit? I have so far failed to locate a source for oyster shells and i cannot handle bones being a vegetarian. Is this a good idea?

And someone let me know about calf manna, pls.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

calf manna is sold at feedstores for young cattle. 

your beach stuff may be fine if it is sanitary, Tamil nadu seems like a clean beach I think.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Beach was clean. I collected the material from sea floor. It should not be bad even if it's not good.

Thanks for the info, i'll try to get calf manna from cattle feedstores.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I used beach sand for flooring in my aviary (sun roof and lots of air circulation) at one time, and my birds loved picking thru it and I would add to it from time to time and sift out poop, like going thru cat litter. It got plenty sun, never stayed wet and the birds never had any negative reactions. *


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Take some of the sand and look at it under a microscope or strong lens

Even though not noticeable to the naked eye beach sand in many particles of broken down plastic in it - which are not digestable. They might not be big enough to block their system but I would expect them to cause problems at some point

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/05/0506_040506_oceanplastic_2.html

Not saying the sand is necessarily bad, but looking clean with the naked eye is no guarantee that it is free from microscopic plastic


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Also I don;t know about the laws in your country, but here we have limited beaches and limited sand and it is illegal to collect and remove sand from the beach.

So check that out before you decide to use it


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Skyeking - that's a very practical idea. I've always had the idea of having a floor strewn with river sand. It takes an effort to clean the brick-tiled floor that i have now which has left me thinking if i should cover it up with mud. As my aviary doesn't have a roof and open to the skies if it were to rain then all the sand should wash away and i my house would be in a horrible mess. This is a big disadvantage of housing your aviary in a first floor balcony but the other advantages out weigh this. Good that your birds liked it but what forced you to change this?


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thepigeongene - shocked to read this article. These days every damn thing seems to be contaminated. Even if plastic particles were to be present when viewed under microscope i don't think i would make them out. Its better that i consult others locally to determine if its safe enough or even better that i find some source of cuttle fish bones, oyster shells. 

I am quite sure its illegal to quarry sand from a beach but i collected only a bottle full and hope this is not illegal mining. I have no plans to bring back enough quantity to cover up the floor. 

Thanks, i will be careful.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Is calf manna - groundnut cake ie the mass left after the oil has been expressed and used as fodder for cattle?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Its used called cattle feed supplement in India.








It comes for dogs/cats also which is not desirable for pigeons as it has meat. The one that comes for goats works good. It comes for chicken also. There are many types of it. You might wanna buy that which has max vitamins to make your pigeon feed complete. You will need only 5-8% calf manna in your whole feed.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Okay. I have to buy it from a cattle feed store as suggested by Spirit Wings. I have the feed mix ratio ready and will post it tomorrow for your comments.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I wanted to say this,that canker and cocci are common pigeon ailments. Running prevention courses for them once a year for 5 days doesn't hurt the birds infact help them.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Today a guy told me pigeons get canker if split corn(maize) is fed as the corn can cause scratches in their mouth. Is this true?


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Split corn and cracked corn are one and the same i believe?


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Jass, you mean its better to give them a full(5 days?) course of canker/cocci med once a year even if they aren't diagonised with that?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> Today a guy told me pigeons get canker if split corn(maize) is fed as the corn can cause scratches in their mouth. Is this true?


Not much of the truth. Pigeons eat a lot more things that are sharp-edged than cracked corn like pebbles,marbel chips,egg shells etc. So no problem with the cracked corn.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> Split corn and cracked corn are one and the same i believe?


I believe so too. Depends on terminology. Sometimes in cooking shows they use split corns to define corn pieces split from the cob itself,that they boil for soups,pizza etc 
Cracked corn is definitely that which is grinded between stones. But 2-3 pieces per piece (unlike ground corn).


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> Jass, you mean its better to give them a full(5 days?) course of canker/cocci med once a year even if they aren't diagonised with that?


It depends on what med you're using and what does the instructions tell you to do.
If once a year 5 days are needed by most canker and cocci meds. Always complete the course so that pathogens don't build up any resistance


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> It depends on what med you're using and what does the instructions tell you to do.
> If once a year 5 days are needed by most canker and cocci meds. Always complete the course so that pathogens don't build up any resistance


As Jass said canker and cocci they get easily, spread easily but are normally killed easily too (in a short time)

I always give my birds a course of canker before their eggs hatch. Because canker in babies imo is tricky to treat. If the parents carry canker they can easily pass it on to the babies when they feed. So i give 5 days canker treatment a week before the babies hatch.

While I'm at it, I give all my birds.

Cocci I have never had a prob with, so i never treated preventively. THis year is the first time they came down with it and I suspect it was from a new bird i introduced. Even though I put him in quarantine I find new birds can sometimes cause a spike in sickness, usually it is canker with my loft. This time it was cocci.

Before adding a new bird (during the quarantine time) I worm them, treat them for canker, (now I might treat them for cocci), and vaccinate them. Before I put them in the loft I also spray them for external parasites.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thank you Jass and ThePigeonGene. Its time for me to start working on the medicines and preventive treatments. Lemme inquire their availability in my area.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Balancing availability and economy I've finally decided on this feed mix. 

1 Pearl Millet (or) Bajra 4 kgs 21.16%
2 Italian (or) Foxtail Millet 2 kgs 10.53%
3 Milo (or) Sorghum (or) Jowar 2 kgs 10.53%
4 Wheat 2 kgs 10.53%
5 Finger Millet (or) Ragi 1 kg 5.25%
6 Maize (or) Corn 1 kg 5.25%
7 Paddy 1 kg 5.25%
8 Green Peas 1 kg 5.25%
9 Red Cow Peas 1 kg 5.25%
10 Chick Peas 1 kg 5.25%
11 Pearl Barley 1 kg 5.25%
12 Sunflower Seeds 1 kg 5.25%
13 Calf Manna 1 kg 5.25%
Total 19 kgs
I believe this should last me for 30 days for my flock of 14 birds at present.
Cereal grains - 13 kgs - 68.50% of total feed mix
Pulses & Legumes - 5 kgs - 26.50% of total feed mix
Calf manna - 1 kg - 5% of total feed mix

I dunno the difference between pulses and legumes, so I've clubbed them together. Is the above mix justified and rich enough to maintain my flock healthy and fit? I would welcome your comments. At present my flock consists of cross-bred birds apart from a pair of Mookhees. I want to build on this and once I am confident with my loft setup, feed etc. I plan to replace all these birds and own pure bred homers, racing homers, tipplers, tumblers and other fancy breeds ONLY. I am sure every one knows how costly these breeds are and before I move into them I want to have a solid foundation. I welcome your suggestions and thanks in advance for your replies.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> Balancing availability and economy I've finally decided on this feed mix.
> 
> 1 Pearl Millet (or) Bajra 4 kgs 21.16% Millet - 12% protein, 3-4% fat)
> 2 Italian (or) Foxtail Millet 2 kgs 10.53% Millet - 12% protein, 3-4% fat)
> ...


Its got many different seeds which is always good as you get more varied nutrients.
To be honest I do not know what half the seeds are

Pigeons need about 11-12% protein and no more than 5% fat. I don't have the info on all your seeds, but similar types tend to have similar data so I will try fill in the % next to the seed for you

From the above you can find out the ratio of your feed %'s

for example:
millet (all types together) you mix has 36.94% millet which contains 12% protein = [(36.94 x 12 = *443.28*)

Do this for all the protein contents of your different categories of seeds - sunflower, wheat, barley, rice, peas, corn and milo

Then add the numbers in bold together

And divide that number by 100 = the total % of protein in your feed mix. 
You then do the same for the fat content

Sorry if this is too complicated. But since you are starting your seed mix from scratch I prefer doing it from the start. And you only really need to do it once or a few times until you are happy with your mix


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

You have added pretty useful info. As you say rightly we must do the calculations and arrive at the correct ratio as it is from scratch. Want to have the perfect mix with hopes to raise the perfect birds. I will get back soon with the calculations.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Nice job Ananth. I would add 4 kgs of whole barley(javi/jayi/jo) to it for fibre.
If you've added calf manna that will do the job of complete nutrition. Keep giving grit 24/7 and water soluble vitamins and mineral supplements once a week.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thanks Jass. So you suggest to increase whole barley to 4 kgs instead of 1 right? I will post a pic of barley that i am feeding now and request you to confirm if it is whole barley?


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi all, I did lots of 'googling' to find out the nutritional value of these selected grains. Different websites suggest different values, so I am not too sure on the accuracy of below data. 


FOOD	CLASSIFICATION	PROTEIN	FAT	ASH	FIBRE	CARBOHYDRATE	QUANTITY IN GRAMS	PROTEIN CONTENT IN FEED MIX	FAT CONTENT IN FEED MIX
Paddy	Cereal	7.30	2.20	1.40	0.80	64.30	1000.00	7300.00	22000.00
Maize	Cereal	9.40	4.74	?	7.30	74.00	1000.00	9400.00	47400.00
Wheat	Cereal	10.60	1.90	1.40	1.00	69.70	2000.00	21200.00	38000.00
Barley	Cereal	11.00	3.40	1.90	3.70	55.80	3000.00	33000.00	102000.00
Milo	Millet	10.40	3.10	1.60	2.00	71.00	2000.00	20800.00	62000.00
Foxtail Millet	Millet	11.20	4.00	3.30	6.70	63.20	2000.00	22400.00	80000.00
Finger Millet	Millet	7.70	1.50	2.60	3.60	72.60	2000.00	15400.00	30000.00
Pearl Millet	Millet	11.80	4.80	2.20	2.30	67.00	2500.00	29500.00	120000.00
Cow Pea	Pulse	24.00	1.00	?	4.00	3.00	1000.00	24000.00	10000.00
Green Pea	Pulse	20.00	1.00	?	4.00	56.00	1000.00	20000.00	10000.00
Chick Pea	Pulse	17.00	5.00	?	4.00	4.00	1000.00	17000.00	50000.00
Sunflower Seed	Oil Seed	20.00	52.00	?	1.00	18.00	1000.00	20000.00	520000.00
Calf Manna	Supplement	25.00	3.00	?	?	?	500.00	12500.00	15000.00

TOTAL FEED MIX = 20000 GRAMS
TOTAL OF PROTEIN CONTENT IN FEED MIX = 252500 GRAMS
PROTEIN CONTENT PER 100 GRAMS OR % = 12.63%

TOTAL OF FAT CONTENT IN FEED MIX = 110640 GRAMS
FAT CONTENT PER 100 GRAMS OR % = 5.53%

Is the above method correct? 
Is the feed mix okay?

Hope it is not too confusing?


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Sorry, i tried to paste in a table format but i dont think that option exists.

Please read it in this sequence
FOOD	
CLASSIFICATION	
PROTEIN CONTENT	
FAT CONTENT	
ASH CONTENT
FIBRE	CONTENT
CARBOHYDRATE CONTENT
QUANTITY IN GRAMS IN THE FEED MIX	
CALCULATED PROTEIN CONTENT IN FEED MIX = PROTEIN CONTENT IN 100 GMS MULTIPLIED BY TOTAL QUANTITY IN FEED MIX	
FAT CONTENT IN FEED MIX = FAT CONTENT IN 100 GMS MULTIPLIED BY TOTAL QUANTITY IN FEED MIX


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> Hi all, I did lots of 'googling' to find out the nutritional value of these selected grains. Different websites suggest different values, so I am not too sure on the accuracy of below data.
> 
> 
> FOOD	CLASSIFICATION	PROTEIN	FAT	ASH	FIBRE	CARBOHYDRATE	QUANTITY IN GRAMS	PROTEIN CONTENT IN FEED MIX	FAT CONTENT IN FEED MIX
> ...



Too many numbers! Lol
well the percentages look like they make sense but

you weight of protein is higher than your weight of the entire mix, which isn't really possible

if your calculations are correct you fat content is too high imo. Which means you either need to reduce the quantity of high fat seeds or add in a quantity of low fat seeds/grains to balance it out


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

i guessed something was wrong
the calculations went like this

for eg: paddy - protein content is 7.3 g per 100 gms.
my mix contains 1000 gms of paddy
therefore total protein content is 7.3/100 * 1000 = 73 grams

Yes, here is the mistake - instead of 73 grams i've mentioned it as 7300 grams

After corrections, 
TOTAL PROTEIN CONTENT = 2525 grams in 20000 grams of feed
*Protein content per 100 g = 2525/20000 * 100 = 12.63%*
TOTAL FAT CONTENT = 1106.40 grams in 20000 grams of feed
*Fat content per 100 g = 1106.4/20000 * 100 = 5.53%*

The result is the same, i added two extra zeros in last post.

Fat content is highest in sunflower seeds - a whopping 52%, if the quantity is reduced by half ie 500 grams instead of 1000 grams in the mix, the fat content gets revised to 4.23%

Will this be fine? Are these calculations sensible?


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> i guessed something was wrong
> the calculations went like this
> 
> for eg: paddy - protein content is 7.3 g per 100 gms.
> ...


The equation I use is by percentages only. The result may be the same but I would have done it this way:

paddy rice
7.3g per 100gm is equal to 7.3%
your mix has 1000gm but how much % is that of the mix?. X%

*how much does your total mix weigh?* Edit: saw you wrote 20000gm (20kg). So your paddy rice is 5% of the mix

7.3 * 5 = 36.5

total numbers/100 = %

the result may be the same, but I am not good enough at maths to figure it out without working it out


4.23% fat is good imo


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

grain ........... protein ........... fat ........... kg ........... % of mix ........... PROTEIN ........... FAT
paddy...........7.3 ........... 2.2 ........... 1kg ........... 5% ........... 36.5 ........... 11
maize...........9.4 ........... 4.74 ........... 1kg ........... 5% ........... 47 ........... 23.7
wheat...........10.6 ........... 1.9 ........... 2kg ........... 10% ........... 106 ........... 19
barley...........11 ........... 3.4 ........... 3kg ........... 15% ........... 165 ........... 51
milo ...........10.4 ........... 3.1 ........... 2kg ........... 10% ........... 104 ........... 31
foxtail...........11.2 ........... 4 ........... 2kg ........... 10% ........... 112 ........... 40
finger ........... 7.7 ........... 1.4 ........... 2kg........... 10% ........... 77 ........... 14
pearl ........... 11.8 ........... 4.8 ........... 2.5kg ........... 12.5% ........... 147.5 ........... 60
cow pea ........... 24 ........... 1 ........... 1kg ........... 5% ........... 120 ........... 5
green pea ........... 20 ........... 1 ........... 1kg ........... 5% ........... 100 ........... 5
chick pea ........... 17 ........... 5 ........... 1kg ........... 5% ........... 85 ........... 25
sunflower ........... 20 ........... 52 ........... 1kg ........... 5% ........... 100 ........... 260
calf manna ........... 25 ........... 3 ........... 0.5kg ........... 2.5% ........... 62.5 ........... 7.5
*Total 1262.5 ........... 552.2*

1262.5/100=12.63%
552.2/100=5.52%

Yup your calculations are good


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thank you


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Ananth,
Your feedmix would be fine. Not all the protein is digestable so don't worry about the protein content. If your birds are healthy bit more fat than required won't be a problem as well.
As long as pigeons get grit daily and weekly vitamins and minerals supplements, their metabolism keeps these things in check. With their metabolism on track they can thrive on almost any pigeon feedmix IME but don't read me wrong,appropriate it is,the better.

Do give us the results which your pigeons must show in 15-20 days.
Are your pigeons eating calf manna? (It should be 5-8% of feedmix not more than it.)


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Ananth,
> Your feedmix would be fine. Not all the protein is digestable so don't worry about the protein content. If your birds are healthy bit more fat than required won't be a problem as well.
> As long as pigeons get grit daily and weekly vitamins and minerals supplements, their metabolism keeps these things in check. With their metabolism on track they can thrive on almost any pigeon feedmix IME but don't read me wrong,appropriate it is,the better.
> 
> ...


From my exp with show pigeons (no expert here! But just sharing from my exp and struggles) high fat content affects their droppings easily and makes for an oily messy loft. No idea how it affects their health or metabolism, but when my feed was too high in fat content I did not like the look or texture of their droppings.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

I'll maintain the fat content to be around 4 to 5% to be safe. Oil bearing seeds hold the highest fat content but they are the last to be eaten. (safflower seeds aren't available here, sunflower seeds are available but fat content is around 50%). The bossy birds eat a different ratio than the less fortunate ones which get to eat foxtail & finger millet + sunflower seeds. The other grains are gobbled up by the bosses. Similarly the birds which sit on eggs during feeding hours seem to get only the leftovers. Have to add more feeders and work out some other arrangement for the birds on eggs.

I plan to introduce calf manna from next week in my presence and observe how they take to it. 

Right now they are being fed (homemade) grit. I have to find out the shops that sell the vitamin and mineral supplements and start feeding these from the coming week. I am cautious not to introduce any new substance in my absence.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Having decided largely on the feed mix, will the below suffice for water and other supplements:-

Water / Supplements :-
Day 1 - Calcium supplement - Ostovet or Calcimust - one teaspoon mixed in a litre of water - once a week

Day 2 - Pure fresh water with no additives

Day 3 - Garlic infused water once a week - one clove in a litre of water soaked overnight

Day 4 - ACV - one drop mixed in a litre of water - once a week (if ACV is not available to use acetic acid powder instead)

Day 5 - Vitamin / Mineral supplements - Verol of Cobadex Forte - one teaspoon mixed in a litre of water - once a week

Day 6 - Pure fresh water with no additives

Day 7 - Oregano infused water once a week - one leaf in a litre of water soaked overnight

----------------------------------------------

Grit :-
Insoluble grit - broken concrete + broken red bricks + broken charcoal + small pebbles (coarse river sand) + 3% raw salt

Soluble grit - crushed oyster shells + powdered cuttle fish bone + crushed lime stone 

-----------------------------------------------

Medicines :-
*Deworming :-*
Bendystar - once in 6 months
Pyrantel Pamoate (Nemocid) - once in 6 months
Ivermectin (hi-tek or Ivomec) - once in 6 months

What is the dosage for the above? Should we give all the three simultaneously and for how long?

*Prevention for Canker/Cocci :-*
Pl advice the medicine , dosage, duration and frequency?

Kindly give your comments and thanks in advance.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Ananth_Tvli;I'm so sorry for delay in replying. I don't know what happened to the browser it wasn't opening PT last night.

Having decided largely on the feed mix, will the below suffice for water and other supplements:-

Water / Supplements :-
Day 1 - Calcium supplement - Ostovet or Calcimust - one teaspoon mixed in a litre of water - once a week

Day 2 - Pure fresh water with no additives

Day 3 - Garlic infused water once a week - one clove in a litre of water soaked overnight
garlic soaked water degrades after 4-5 hours in summers. The cloves in water starts to rot. So garlic water must be made fresh and changed twice/thrice on the day you want to give it to pigeons

Day 4 - ACV - one drop mixed in a litre of water - once a week (if ACV is not available to use acetic acid powder instead)
you can add 5-10 drops of ORGANIC acv if you plan to give it once a week

Day 5 - Vitamin / Mineral supplements - Verol of Cobadex Forte - one teaspoon mixed in a litre of water - once a week

Day 6 - Pure fresh water with no additives

Day 7 - Oregano infused water once a week - one leaf in a litre of water soaked overnight
also add probiotics to your pigeon's health regime. Pigeons benefit a lot from probiotics.
----------------------------------------------

Grit :-
Insoluble grit - broken concrete + broken red bricks + broken charcoal + small pebbles (coarse river sand) + 3% raw salt

Soluble grit - crushed oyster shells + powdered cuttle fish bone + crushed lime stone 

-----------------------------------------------

Medicines :-
*Deworming :-*
Bendystar - once in 6 months
Pyrantel Pamoate (Nemocid) - once in 6 months
Ivermectin (hi-tek or Ivomec) - once in 6 months

What is the dosage for the above? Should we give all the three simultaneously and for how long?
one 50mg bendystar tab is given to eight pigeons by cutting it. Give it down the throat,preferably on empty crop. If you don't know how its done then please ask.
Pyrantel pamoate dosage is 2 mg per pigeon for one day for prevention and if you birds don't have much worms. But it should be given for 2 continous days if worm infestation is high. It is very safe product and doesn't harm the pigeons if it gets overdosed.
Ivermectin dosage is 1-2 drops per pigeon down the throat. Its also a safe product. Its dosage is just .35-50mg per pigeon. You also add injectable ivermectin to drinking water also but then you can't be sure about how much medicated water an individual pigeon drinks.
All deworming meds are poisons so better to give them days apart. But always follow instruction or give them after 21 days gap to break lifecycle of worms using a particular med twice( in continuation)

*Prevention for Canker/Cocci :-*
Pl advice the medicine , dosage, duration and frequency?

For canker:metronidazole,tinidazole and dimetridazole is available.
Metronidazole doesn't dissolve in water so you can use powder or crush tablets to fine powder and mix it in moist feed. Mix it only in that much feed which your pigeons eat in one go.
Demetridazole is believed to be a good product in India but its toxic to pigeons if overdosed. So be very careful when using it.
Tinidazole is another good product on which Indian vets rely.
For canker you can buy ronidazole online which is best for flock prevention

There are many products for coccidiosis. There's amprolium powder, toltrazuril,coccinil powder, coximar. I'm sure if you go ask for it the shop will have a good product for coccidiosis. It a common ailment here.

Please don't hesitate to ask questions
Kindly give your comments and thanks in advance.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Jass, thanks again and no worries about the delay. I experience the same problem (PT website not opening) often.

Water :-
1.Noted that garlic rots quickly and have to change it often. 
2.I couldn't locate organic ACV, have a separate thread going for that. Should i use acetic acid? I hope this is available here in some shop selling chemicals.

3. Probiotics - what are they? Pl name them with dosage

Deworming Medicines :-
1. I don't know how to give them down the throat? Kindly explain. For that matter how do I feed to the crop too? 
2. From your reply I understand Bendystar and Pyrantel Pamoate are tablets that have to be pushed down the throat and Ivermectin is liquid to be fed down the throat. These have to be given on 2 continuous days and with an interval of 21 days. The whole procedure is to be repeated once in 6 months?

Canker/Coccidiosis prevention medicines :-
1. Are these medicines which you have prescribed suitable for both prevention and cure (in case any bird is or gets affected?)
2. Should these be given once a year or twice?

Should I treat them for anything else? Any other preventive courses to be administered?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yes you can use acetic acid once a week safely. Bragg's Organic ACV is available in Mumbai too. I checked on net.

Pigeons have a thick layer of friendly bacteria which helps them fight against bacteria which they're exposed to, on daily basis. Probiotics also help with digestion as they are friendly but bacteria. Studies have shown that pigeons put on probiotics stay healthy and don't fall victim to disease easily. Pigeon specific probiotics are hard to get. You can ask if they sell them for Poultry near you. Unless venky's gut well is what I use. Dosage is half a teaspoon mixed into 250 grams of feed once a week.

A day before giving deworming med, pigeons are fed lightly in the evening,only that much which they could digest come next morning. Water is removed during night. Then next morning deworming med is given on empty crop individually to pigeons by opening their mouths and putting deworming tablet/liquid in the back of their throats. Water is not offered for two hours. After two hours only water will be given till 2 - 4 pm means pigeons will be kept hungry that morning. And then at 4 pm pigeons are fed with all they can eat. Deworming is advised once in six months but if your birds don't have worms and you don't let your pigeons pick around then once in a year is good.


Yes,these medicines are good both for cure and prevention. Try rotating the meds so that no resistance is developed. If your birds are healthy then once an year is good but if your birds had some sort of illness then its advisable to treat for canker and cocci twice a year because all they need to come up is stress. Always complete the med course and follow instructions.


This should be enough if your pigeons are healthy.


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thank you Jass.


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