# Skin Layers???



## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Hi guys,
I've recently read a post about the use of some type of skin layers (which I'm no longer seem to be able to find), which are to be applied on the deeper wounds to facilitate skin regeneration. What I thought to be healed tissue on my Nicobar's head is actually bare skull. By looking at the healed pink skin edge all around the scab I had the impression that the scab was to tight on her head not allowing the blood to properly circulate, causing the edges to swollen. In reality the scab was all dead flesh to the bone. Do you think the artificial skin layers could help regenerate the tissue? Or at least keep the skull covered until, hopefully the edges would slowly fill in? It looks like I caused myself other things to worry about now that she seems to be back on her feet. I really appreciate any suggestion, at this time all I do is keep the area moistened with an antibiotic ointment to prevent a possible skull infection. Thanks again guys, I expect this to be a lot trickier journey.


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## tatts (Nov 9, 2005)

*skin layers*

hi 
years ago I had a stallion that striped the skin and flesh from his hock to his pastern on his back leg,this took aprox 18 months to heal.The only way that we could do it was to apply vasoline to the bone so as to keep the bone moist and this encouraged the flesh and skin to repair itself,but this was still a complicated process as we had to keep burning the proud flesh away with blue stone.This would work for the pigeon also,but without the problem of the proud flesh,I'd first clean it with Otoderm and then apply the vasoline to the skull bone that's showing,you would have to do this regularly,at least twice a day untill the skalp return's.Being a pigeon this won't take too long as they seem to recover easily from this type of afliction.best of luck.
Tatts


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ruxandra,



When this injury first happenned to your Bird, somewhere in that thread, I posted some links to images taken during the time I first had 'Crow Baby' who as a very yound Pigeon, had been attacked by Crows.

Similarly, all the flesh and skin on the upper areas of his head, died, and shrank into a cracked scab, with the regeneration/new flesh and skin, growing in from all around, below.

I never messed with this injury other than to have kept it moist from the beginning with Neosporin.

It healed over several weeks...I forget how many, but during that time you could see his bare skull in several areias where the scab of dead flesh had shrank and cracked somewhat and turned grey.

Al healed perfectly...the new skin / flesh was supple and looked perfect in every way...and he was bald for a long time, for several months.

Then, all the Feathers grew in perfectly.

One of the threads in which the 'artificial skin' material is mentioned, was -

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12983

Is the scab still there covering his skull?

Or is his skull bare now?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Ruxandra,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,
I took all of the thick scab off, it seemed to bother her a lot, she continuously tried to scratch it off. But it was last night when I realized she has no skin layer on her skull. Yes, the skull is all bare. I did keep the area moist ever since I removed the scab but today she made it very difficult, she's regained all the strength and she made me chase her around the bedroom. I had to be very cautious since the skull is now exposed. I looked at your pictures several times but the very large bare area really concerns me in her case. Does Walgreen's or Wal Mart carry the Duoderm? What would you do, try Duoderm or stick to the ointment?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ruxandra,


I am sure such scabs will itch and tingle and feel funny around their perimiters and can annoy the Bird somewhat.

By the time Crow Baby removed his scab himself, all of the new thin flesh and skin was grown in...the scab appearently had been held on by some few small areas of actual connection to the skull, but they were very small, and when it came off there were a coupl tiny ragged shallow craters with a tiny bit of moist Blood.

Maybe, if you did not keep the scab on your Bird's head continually moist with say 'Polysporin' or it's likes, it could have felt more annoying to them or shrank more, making more itchy-stingy feelings or something...too, if any actual feeling remained in it, and probable none did really in either of our cases...and your's suffered a larger area of injury than mine had.

I have never used the 'Duoderm' or any of it's like-kinds of products, and I did not know about them untill recently.

Medical supply places would likely carry them, and you can see if any of these are in your local Yellow Pages.

Or, if you are on good terms with some Veterinarians, you never know, they might have some on hand and possibly would part with a few.

Vet Wrap, or even 'Micropore Tape' might also be useful for holding the 'Duoderm' on to their head...

Otherwise, I am not sure how you would be able to secure it there...

But do make sure the exposed bone of their skull is always moist with Polysporin or similar...do not let it get dry...

Best wishes to you both!

Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

*Nicobar update*

At this point I'm wondering if it wasn't a good thing I took the scab off after all. It's been only 8 days since I posted about the bare scalp. About four days ago I noticed some very thin spider web of capillaries spreading over it's off-white scalp. Today the scalp already has an overall pink appearance, I'll try to get some pics tomorrow. I didn't get the Duoderm, it would have been impossible to attach it to the scalp but I'm still using the ointment twice a day and I will continue to do so. Until Spring I'll keep her in the house to keep her away from the cool weather. So far, so good


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

tatts said:


> hi
> The only way that we could do it was to apply vasoline to the bone so as to keep the bone moist and this encouraged the flesh and skin to repair itself,but this was still a complicated process as we had to keep burning the proud flesh away with blue stone.
> Tatts


Thank you Tatts,
I meant to ask you what do you mean by proud flesh? How do you burn it away with blue stone? May I also ask what is the blue stone?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ruxandra,


Now, are you looking at a bare Skull? Or a 'scalp' of flesh and skin...?

Anyway, ummmm, I will say that in my experience, an injury like this would have been best treated by leaving the Scab alone and leaving it in place untill it came off naturally on it's own, once all the new flesh grew in under it...and, by keeping it moist the whole time with Neosporin.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Ruxandra,
> 
> 
> Now, are you looking at a bare Skull? Or a 'scalp' of flesh and skin...?
> ...


Yes Phil, I was looking at a bare skull. Most of it was off-white and, in some places it had some transparency, like you would look at some clear plastic sheets one in top of the other. That really freaked me out and it made me angry with myself for removing the scab. Then, the spider webs of capillaries started to spread from the edges towards the center. The picture I just took is not so clear (I messed with the camera last night and I already applied the ointment, I'll try to get another one tonight) but you can still see in the center some of the off-white skull just starting to get covered with the spider webs of capillaries. They are multiplying very quickly, there's a huge difference from one day to another. A week ago I was looking at an off-white skull, now I'm looking at a dark pink skull. For the first few days I could see the very thin capillaries, now it's starting to look like an overall even color. I'm thinking that maybe the ointment helps better with the healing process than the very thick scab would have. I don't know, but I feel a lot better now that I see her improving so fast.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Proud flesh" is a horse term, mostly. It's a regrowth that occurs on wounds which doesn't support the regrowth of the natural hair of a horse's hide. Just google it. It doesn't apply to pigeons so it's not important.

In your case, the regrowth is different because there's no muscle and other soft tissues to cover--only the bone. I don't recall anyone here having quite that problem so we're all somewhat in the dark as to the final resolution here. On my Pierpont, there was an area that didn't want to reseal to the original skin flaps because the underneath side of the skin had already sealed itself. What happened was a thin scar film generated over most of the area finally and then the skin flaps literally pulled back to their original places as the scar film receded. It was very odd and I wouldn't have believed it would do that without seeing it with my own eyes.

Of course, in your bird's place, there is skin that was simply destroyed and is gone. The skull bone originally had its own circulatory system and now it's generating a scar tissue layer as a film to protect it. Don't know if there will be an overall thinning of the skull thickness as a result but it'd probably be a bad idea for this fellow to bump his head for awhile.

It sure would be nice if traction could be put on the surrounding skin with feathers so that it would eventually fill in the blank, feathers included. You might take some calipers and monitor the size of the bald spot for awhile to see if it's shrinking. As you get to see it every day, it might be easy to not notice if it did shrink.

Pidgey


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Hi there, I am a duoderm user and that is not a case for it. I had a pij a few months ago with the identical wound. It did not have enough skin on it's head to cover the scalp, so what we did was pulled the neck skin forward. We did have to close it a couple of times due to the initial tightness, but it turned out beautifully. To keep it moist you should use a lube called Silver Sulfadiazanine. (I probably spelled it wrong, I'm not sitting in front of the bottle right now) It is the preferred product on deep wounds as it is more water based. They use it for burn victims too. If you are in the USA I can send you some. Best wishes! Yong


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yong,

Do you mean Silvadene (Silver Sulfadiazine)? Often used for burns?

Also, you mean that the skin at the back of the skull should be pulled up and over like pulling a hood over your head and then sutured in place, right? I'm guessing that the fascia underneath the back half of the neck that's securing said skin would need to be broken to free it up to do that and probably to a depth of one to two inches down the neck. That flap would need to be secured to something forward while the fascia reformed. That could certainly close a lot of the bare spot up and then more minor successive plastic surgeries could eventually close up the rest of it. 

I'm wondering how to secure the flap forward for the initial pull, though. It's the proximity to the eyes that's the biggest worry--the bird can't move while a needle's close or it could be a bigtime problem. SweetSpirit, do you have a good vet that could (and would) pull off a stunt like that or do you think you're going to have to run solo on this deal? And, can you take another picture of what's forward from a different angle so we can further speculate on the procedure?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Believe it is Silver Sulfadene. 

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Ruxandra,

I can't believe your pic, what a scary situation. I really have nothing to add that would help you on this, although it does seem as though Yong's idea would be good if you had someone who could help you with it or felt comfortable doing it on your own. Looks like you're in Florida and wondered if you were close to Yong or Reti?

I googled the Silver Sulfadene/Silver Sulfadiazine and it does look to be one in the same, Sulfadene being the tradename. I don't think you'll be having tons of free time right about now, but thought this link to be an interesting one as it has all of the topics in it as the thread that Phil posted:

http://medicaledu.com/emails/email_2004_0518.htm

Scroll down to Angelia's story and responses.
Hope it continues improving and that you are able to measure its progress.

fp


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Hi All, Yes it is Silver Sulfadiazine, Cream USP 1%. It does have to be performed by a vet, the debridement and suturing would be quite painful, not to mention dangerous on a moving bird. It will make for an interesting eye lift, but it sure beats an open skull. It seemed to be the best thing to do because had we taken a patch from another part of the bird, we would not have had the active blood supply as we would have just pulling fromthe neck. Here is a picture of Snowball after, I do not have one before. It did look just like your Nicobar though. If you need other pictures from the top side, etc...let me know. Yong


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yong, 

It looks to me as though Snowball might have had a little more intact flesh just back of the ceres than SweetSpirit's bird has. I say that because it looks like there's a feather-flaw line that goes from the front of the visible eye over to the other side. Can you confirm that?

In SweetSpirit's bird's case, it might be necessary, after freeing up the fascia (which is especially heavy on the back side of the neck), to make a couple of cuts (nicks, really) at the back side corners to allow for the formation of a squared flap to pull forward for the attachment. It looks like it's going to need to come forward about an inch. The further down the initial breaking of the fascia, the less tension will be on the flap. 

Some study should be made on the most likely points of blood supply to that area of skin as it may require that this be done in stages given the extent. The other important thing to consider is going to be what can the flap be tied to as (the picture is kinda' fuzzy) it looks as though there's just a very thin strip of intact skin behind the ceres to attach to. I doubt that area can be relied upon to hold much traction so it may be necessary to epoxy an anchoring ring to the top beak just forward of the nostrils for awhile and run a monofilament back to maintain tension. Don't laugh--stuff like that's done occasionally for expensive birds.

Pidgey

P.S. Feralpigeon, it looks like Ruxandra is about 350 miles from Yong and Reti.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

She did have a bit more tissue behind the wattle, but was torn to the ceres. Yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Thank you guys, I just found your replies. I tried to get another picture but it came worse than the previous one and I wasn't able yet to figure how to reset the camera. At this point it looks like the skin starts to level with the skull. If you look in the last picture, there was a thin dark trace of the old scab around the edges of the remaining skin, which remained in place from the beginning. Right now it's getting pushed out somehow, the skin leveling with the skull. I'll attach the picture I just took anyway, maybe you'll better understand. We'll be driving to south Florida sometimes this week, I would really appreciate if somebody would be willing to take a close look at the bird. There's plenty of skin in the back of the neck, I'm not sure though if enough to cover the skull all the way to the beak. I'll get back tomorrow with some clear pictures of the skull and the neck. Thank you very much to all of you.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Here is the picture. Thanks again.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

I am not sure how close to South Florida you will be coming, but if you would like we can take her to a desperatly needed vet, and get the full story. I can take her in as "one of my own" and see what the Dr. says. she did my bird. Yong

I am in Margate.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, hopefully that meeting works out. The only thing I'm going to say at this point is that if a wound has been open for much more than half a day, it ends up healing differently. It would be a real simple thing to bring a flap up and over and sew it on or secure it in another fashion. However, on the bird that my vet essentially did this to, it went quite differently than anticipated. What I'd expect is for a funny white debris to build up between the skull's newly-generated scar tissue layer and the flap of skin. 

I think it's best if that's cleaned out from time to time while the underneath side of the skin and the scar tissue layer reintegrate. The reason why I think that is because it'll initially be like making a pocket of sealed skin--stuff will exude from the scar tissue that would normally be sloughed off to the outside like shedding skin. That's what happened in my bird and when it did it enough, it got in the way of the healing process. That's when I'd have to re-open the sutures and clean it out. It wasn't quite like debriding as what was underneath was a regular membrane layer. 

In this case, it may even be possible to occasionally scrape the edges near the perimeter of skin (not all at once) and the feathered skin may advance inward to the unfeathered region bit by bit. That might take months, but still actually work. That process would be rather like chipping at the edges of a scab so that the skin formation can advance inward.

Anyhow, the vet who sewed my bird up initially did not tell me that this would happen. I'm actually not entirely certain that he knew it would require that but I haven't asked him. Incidentally, a member named NumberNine also had a wound of your type but only about half as extensive, I'd say. In the end, he also had to do a few re-open/debride/re-close cycles:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12191

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> I am not sure how close to South Florida you will be coming, but if you would like we can take her to a desperatly needed vet, and get the full story. I can take her in as "one of my own" and see what the Dr. says. she did my bird. Yong
> 
> I am in Margate.


Thanks you very much for the offer Young. I got your private message, I'll give you a call tomorrow.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

> It would be a real simple thing to bring a flap up and over and sew it on or secure it in another fashion.


The length of the bare skull is 1 1/2". I'm wondering if would be possible to get another small section of skin from some place else and to get it attached to the stretched one so it could cover the entire skull without putting to much pressure on the stitches. 


> However, on the bird that my vet essentially did this to, it went quite differently than anticipated. What I'd expect is for a funny white debris to build up between the skull's newly-generated scar tissue layer and the flap of skin. I think it's best if that's cleaned out from time to time while the underneath side of the skin and the scar tissue layer reintegrate.


This makes me think. It would be great if I could watch the vet doing the procedure so I could do the cleaning and the rest of the stuff myself. 


> Incidentally, a member named NumberNine also had a wound of your type but only about half as extensive, I'd say. In the end, he also had to do a few re-open/debride/re-close cycles:
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12191
> Pidgey


Very interesting! You guys are so amazing. Here is the last picture I got.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the difficulty with attaching a skin-graft is establishing blood flow to the graft. That involves micro-surgery to hook up the piping (blood vessels; supply and return) which would be cost prohibitive (it CAN be done, of course).

Well, that picture sure is sharper, I feel so sorry for that bird. Can you get a picture of the front side of the face so that we can see what the ceres look like?

That area at the back of the skull where the skin is attached is the spot where the fascia is the tightest. The skin gets a lot looser a little bit below that. By the way, I'd say that a very good recovery is likely but it might be several weeks down the road. It may be likely that the feathers that the bird grows will be rather longer than the originals and you may have to give them a trim from time to time to keep the bird from having to look through them.

Pidgey


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Looking forward to hearing from you! Lets see if we can help your baby=) Yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

> Can you get a picture of the front side of the face so that we can see what the ceres look like?Well, that picture sure is sharper, I feel so sorry for that bird.


I will get one tomorrow. Well, she doesn't seem to be affected or in pain. She looks frightened in the picture, she was actually scared by the camera but not enough to take off as she was sitting on my left hand while I was taking the photos with the other hand. 



> By the way, I'd say that a very good recovery is likely but it might be several weeks down the road. It may be likely that the feathers that the bird grows will be rather longer than the originals and you may have to give them a trim from time to time to keep the bird from having to look through them.Pidgey


I don't mind taking extra care of her, besides, she's quite tame now making it all easier. I just hope I won't be forced to keep her in a box to protect the stitches


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> Looking forward to hearing from you! Lets see if we can help your baby=) Yong


Thanks Yong  Talk to you tomorrow.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

I let mine recover in the aviary. I just had to catch her for her meds each day. Yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Just a quick update before I go to sleep. It might not look to good. She either scratched the remaining scab off or got picked by one of the other two. There's dried blood on about 50% of the skull. I think she scratched the scab off to soon. We've been insulating the roofs in some of the flights today and have installed heating lamps, tomorrow I'll get the other two guys outside. I'm pretty sure they can't tolerate low temperatures. When I've found her injured there was also another one on the floor who passed away in that night. He's had his wing spread out like he was sun bathing when I saw him. She's also had the wing spread out when I've found her laying on the floor. Someone from the doves group lost a dove recently due to very cold weather. The owner also mentioned that the dove had a wing spread out when he found it laying dead on the floor. That helped me put together the following scenario. These three Nicobars used to sleep together and to chase the one who passed away. The night prior the incident, I remembered pretty late that I forgot to cover the flight chicken wire with some plastic curtains I've set up for the cold nights. Being already dark, the single one got scared by the noise I made with the curtains and I last saw him flying on the same perch with the other three. There must have been a fight after I left, this hen getting badly injured, causing her to end by herself on the floor at some point and to almost die from cold. The other one might have ended by himself as usual on a perch, not surviving the cold weather. The other two must have slept one next to the other as they always did, helping them survive the cold night. That was the coldest night we've had so far this winter. I'll get back tomorrow with new pictures, I hope she'll survive. Have a good night.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's hard for me to imagine them dying of the elements in Florida. Mine don't seem to have a problem in single digit temperatures unless they're already deathly ill. Birds will often spread their wings in a death spasm, though.

Pidgey


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Ah...I can tell you a thought on that one...Most of the time florida is too darn hot. What happens is our birds are caught off guard. There isn't such a thing as a gradual temp change then a sustained low. We had an 80 degree one day, then that very night was inthe 40's. If the birds are a bit off in health, then this drastic change in temp does have bad effects resulting in death. Our feral are not the robust birds that exist in places like Maine and Canada. Believe it or not, most bird keepers, including wildlife facililties, etc...keep lamps on thier birds here. Yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> It's hard for me to imagine them dying of the elements in Florida. Mine don't seem to have a problem in single digit temperatures unless they're already deathly ill. Birds will often spread their wings in a death spasm, though.
> 
> Pidgey


That night was in the low 30F which is quite normal for north Florida. These birds come from a colony of over 70 birds and are over 2 years old. They show no symptoms of illness, I know the breeder pretty well and I also know other people who got birds from him. None of them complained. I read some of the recent posts about probiotics last night and I don't totally agree. When I first noticed infertile eggs or embryo dying, I first tested the droppings for parasites. The results came negative and I wasn't surprised since I use 2 drops of the injectable Ivomec solution on bare skin per bird twice a year, besides I add diatomaceous earth on a regular basis to their food and nesting material. The birds didn't show any symptoms of illness, they eat well, looking beautifully, acting happy....all I could found was e.coli in their droppings. So what opened the door to e.coli? Besides, after 10 days on trimethoprim and 14 days on Baytril, no amount of probiotics were able to firm up the droppings. I tried Probotics from Jed's and Rejuvenation from Foy's. I added five gloves of garlic to one gallon of drinking water and I can't remember within how many days the droppings were back to normal. Even today if I see a green poop I add garlic to their drinking water and the green clears up. I also got the organic unfiltered apple cider vinegar, I add a tablespoon to a gallon of water plus a full teaspoon of probiotics about three times a week. The other four I add the vinegar and vitapreen. I still see occasionally a few green poops which clear within about two days only if I add the garlic. My husband is waiting for me, here are the pictures I got this morning. The skull is intact, it just got covered with blood. It might be for better, she has now some new scab. The off-white edges are all healed skin. Thank you for the private note, it's been very nice of you Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> As you get to see it every day, it might be easy to not notice if it did shrink.
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey, I was looking at one of the last photos I got today and at the one I took on the 28th, that's exactly a week ago. I see a lot of shrinking. What do you think? I'll attach both picture once again.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

SweetSpirit said:


> Pidgey, I was looking at one of the last photos I got today and at the one I took on the 28th, that's exactly a week ago. I see a lot of shrinking. What do you think? I'll attach both picture once again.


I have to remove them first and I forgot how I'm supposed to do that. Let's see...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there's certainly (judging by the photos) an expansion around the edges of scar tissue. I think I said something earlier about that you might be able to debride along the edges and you'd get advancement of the skin edge, possibly to the point of eventually filling in the entire patch.

Now, here's the kicker--if it were a human, you'd have a big bald spot that'd be virtually permanent, just solid scar tissue. In animals, you sometimes get tissue reformation that ultimately goes back to factory spec. That's precisely what we don't know here. If it does, and feathers do regrow, then it's only a matter of time and no need for a trip to the vet.

If they don't, then the bird will remain "cosmetically challenged" and something mighta' oughta' shoulda' be done later. Besides, it's a heat-loss problem to an outside bird, I guess especially for your "non-battle hardened" birds like the ones we have up North. So, you might just wait it out and see how the feathers do. I'm assuming the bird's smeared with Neosporin or something like that right now, huh?

And for those of you who have wondered, I sent SweetSpirit a private message just to tell her there were more replies in case she hadn't made the trip to South Florida yet. I just wanted her to think about some more things before she consulted with the vet (so she could bring them up as questions), and that's because even my wonderful surgeon vet didn't consider that Pierpont was going to need to be repeatedly reopened and debrided in order to heal properly. So I have faith (in vets), but only so much.

Pidgey


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

I have complete faith in my vet. Her specialty is in birds, and I think that helps out tremendously. Cat & dog vets aren't too good sometimes. My vet helped me with nearly three hundered birds last year. We didn't lose any from repaired injuries. In fact the only ones I lost died before ever making it to the vet for treatment. 

One thing that needs to be stressed here is the potential for infection. This wound did not just happen this week. With the bone being exposed, and capilaries being exposed there is an increased risk of infection, and antiotics should be given during this time.

some birds look very happy and content, even with the worst injury. I think that it is important to not be fooled by appearences of alertness when it comes to the stuff we cannot see, like infections.

There should not be need for several suture/devridements. Good cutting, suturing, and wound care should ease the skin stretching. 

Pidgey, do you, in your own opinion think that the gap can close on it's own? What is a treatment plan that can get her on the right track? If It can close on it's own with proper care, then potentially there will not be any need for a vet, and she can just come down for her other reasons. I believe that is her main concern right now. If she can get away with not having to suture, she would probably go that way, but she does need good advice, if not from a vet, then perhaps you? You are clearly skilled at treatment options, and can probably give some good advice to her. She talked about coming next week. I had instructed that antibiotics should be given at least until then. Thoughts?

Thanks, Yong


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I've already said about all I can think of to say regarding this case. What I was referring to about Pierpont was a bird that I have that had suffered a very extensive wound for over a week before I got the bird. Her chest smelled like roadkill. That thread, complete with most pictures, is here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

At the onset of that rehab, I knew very little about 'old wounds' and I STILL would not consider myself an expert, merely "battle hardened". I force my vets to charge me the full price for a visit but I still suspect that they temper their bills because "it's only a feral pigeon." Due to this attitude, I'm not certain that they consider all the possibilities and probabilities with respect to long term care. 

If you read that thread, you will come to understand why I've said what I've said about having to reopen and re-debride the wounds. It's not that they weren't properly cleaned beforehand, it was because "avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." As the skin flaps of that bird had sealed on the original inside surface due to the time factor since the original trauma, laying the original skin back over the debrided muscle tissue formed a plane of cellular shedding that had nowhere to go when shed. Due to the reorganization of the tissue and the resultant modification of eliminatory function, this is what caused the buildup that was better physically extracted from time to time rather than leaving it inside for the bird to encapsulate as they often do. This is what I'm suggesting that the vet consider if and when he or she goes for a closure of the type we have discussed.

As to vets, doctors and medications, they will usually "shoot from the hip" on a suspected bacterial infection--that is, they will prescribe an antibiotic based on a probability rather than lab. Most of us do and I recently figured out that my own doctor will with me when it's a chest thing (they did lab on a true kidney infection once) even though I've told him I mess around with sick birds a lot (loft dust, etc.).

Anyhow, this bird is actually (by the pictures) healing well so far with the only prophylaxis being the applied topical antibacterial and it looks like it's being laid on pretty thick in every picture I've seen. I can't speak to the frequency but I'd guess pretty often. If the bird were in my hands? Yeah, I probably would have kept it on AB's but there really are some true medical reasons for avoiding them if possible. And, yes, I agree that the proximity to the brain is a serious concern here but this isn't the first bird that we've seen on PigeonTalk with this injury that's only had the treatment that it's been getting so far.

I think if we had a series of pictures of this bird's head laid side by side (especially from the same camera position) you would see that the initial size of the wound has been getting smaller owing to a migration towards the center of the perimeter tissues, mostly around the back half. SweetSpirit will have to confirm whether the thickness of the regenerated dermis at a selected point seems to be getting thicker as the days go by. However, that would be in character with other wounds that I have seen.

For the record, I'm not at all worried for this bird's health at this point, I'm more concerned that he or she may have trouble finding a mate due to being "cosmetically challenged." Eventually, you have to take the scarf or hat off and let them see "the real 'you' ".

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Thanks again to both of you. I spoke with my husband today about the whole thing and we decided that it might be better for her not to have any stitching done at this point, nor antibiotics. She pulled well without meds so far... and she made me such a sweet surprise today . I didn't know that she would be willing to eat out of my hand. I tried to give her some raw peanuts to test her appetite since the peanuts are the first to dissappear from their dish. She actually eat so well, I was for the first time happy with the way her crop looked, sooo nicely rounded! Instead of placing her on meds I'll feed her some more of her favorite foods  to help her gain some more weight and strength. I'll also add a few more vitamins, probiotics and garlic to her drinking water. I'm also thinking of adding the Wild Reishi and Neem Oil to her diet. The stitching is great idea and that's the only thing that would actually guarantee a full recovery, but I wouldn't be surprised to see her developing new tissue over the entire skull and to even regrow new feathers later on without this procedure. I'm hoping that I'm doing the right thing for her.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

SweetSpirit said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see her developing new tissue over the entire skull and to even regrow new feathers later on without this procedure.


Based on what you guys shared with me and your experiences  I have a few more questions if you don't mind. Should I clean up the coagulated blood from the skull? Maybe I could use the Duoderm patches now that the skin surrounding the bare skull has grown inward towards the top of the skull.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If the coagulated blood is simply stuck onto scar tissue, then fine. If it's a current scab covering a place where the outer scar membrane has gotten torn, then just keep it soft with the NeoSporin till it's ready to come off more easily. I can't tell from that picture just what the case is.

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> If the coagulated blood is simply stuck onto scar tissue, then fine. If it's a current scab covering a place where the outer scar membrane has gotten torn, then just keep it soft with the NeoSporin till it's ready to come off more easily. I can't tell from that picture just what the case is.
> 
> Pidgey


The scar membrane is intact but it got covered with blood when she removed the scab from around the edges and now the blood dried up on top of the skull. I just tried to remove it but it became one with the membrane and I think I should leave it alone. Attached is the picture of the scab she removed. I just found it on the floor.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That is as I suspected. Around the edges, scab will only hinder regeneration. In burn victims, they will usually debride the wounds every three days or so. Birds cycle a bit faster--their metabolism is WAY faster than ours. "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns only half as long..." Anyhow, it's easiest to clean if it's softer. Occasional scab picking isn't such a bad thing.

Pidgey


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

It was a pleasure to speak with you, I'm sure everything will turn out alright. You are the only one who knows your bird, and what is best for her. Best wishes for a full recovery!  Pidgey, that is some hole your poor little pigeon had! Poor thing. Yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> It was a pleasure to speak with you, I'm sure everything will turn out alright. Yong


Yong, it's been a pleasure to talk to you, too and it's been so nice of you to offer your help. We might have a problem, she scratched her skull again sometimes this morning. Last time I fed her around 12-1pm, the surrounding skin started to be a little pinkish, besides there's a spot on the skull that I don't really like how it looks. I can't describe it, besides the coagulated blood and ointment might trick me.

I just went to reapply the ointment and it looks to me like the skull is swelling, it is above the skin edges anyway. And there's that spot she scratched either last night or this morning. I washed the skull with peroxide and I applied ampicillin powder over the entire area, I'll leave it until tomorrow then I'll reapply the ointment on top of it. I also started her on trimethoprim, I just realized that I'm out of Baytril. Any suggestions as what I could do to stop her scratching her skull? I'm sure she's itching but it looks like she's ruining the whole thing  Thanks again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ruxandra, 

Hmmmm...maybe some kind of 'collar' to keep her from scratching?

That or hobble the legs lightly so they can not reach that far...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Ruxandra,
> 
> Hmmmm...maybe some kind of 'collar' to keep her from scratching?
> 
> ...


Hi Phil, it's been about 5 hours since my last post. Her skull is no longer swollen and looking overall better than last night but I can clearly see now that she's developing a small infection where she scratched. All the antibiotic powder fell off from the skull, leaving it nicely dry. It only stuck on that spot which is still a little juicy. From now on I'll use the ampicillin powder on that spot only. I'm not sure how effective is trimethoptrim against this kind of infections. Should I try to get some baytril in the morning? I'll definitely hobble the legs somehow as soon as my husband wakes up. I'm so upset for what she's done....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can take regular cloth medical tape and do a loop around her legs to limit how far apart she can get them. Give her enough to walk easily but not enough to scratch. Think of it like a prisoner having manacles out his ankles with a chain in between. You just put the sticky side in and let it stick to the skin around the portion just above the toes of each foot and the sticky sides stick together on the section that's between the legs.

I think I'd tend to use NeoSporin ointment instead of antibiotic powder on that but not Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2). H2O2 actually inhibits regrowth of wound tissues while it kills germs. That's well known.

Pidgey


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Dilute Iodine works nicely. I am treating a quail right now for a bad head injury, and he kept scratching at it, so I haloed him. It works great. Use paper plate, cut a hole out in the center, slit on side and then line the inside with some soft tape cloth, and then put around the neck and tape. Just make sure the feed and water bowls are high enough up to get at, and that you bird can lay down freely. Yong

PS. I don't hobble because I personally feel that part of getting better is greatly influenced by mobility and active daily living.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> You can take regular cloth medical tape and do a loop around her legs to limit how far apart she can get them. Give her enough to walk easily but not enough to scratch. Think of it like a prisoner having manacles out his ankles with a chain in between. You just put the sticky side in and let it stick to the skin around the portion just above the toes of each foot and the sticky sides stick together on the section that's between the legs.
> 
> I think I'd tend to use NeoSporin ointment instead of antibiotic powder on that but not Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2). H2O2 actually inhibits regrowth of wound tissues while it kills germs. That's well known.
> 
> Pidgey


I wouldn't have used the peroxide but I needed to know if there is or there isn't an infection and I had to wipe the ointment with something but I didn't degrease the skull completely. It didn't bubble, thank you for your concern. Soon after my previous post I reapplied the powder on the infected area only and it already dried it out completely so I reapplied the ointment.
On the other hand, by morning time she scratched again.

While I was making the loop my husband came with a great idea which could be beneficial to others in a similar situation. We've placed a plastic zip tie to each leg just above the toes making sure they are not to loose or to tight. Then we took a string and tied the two zip ties together close enough so she could walk but not be able to reach to scratch her head. She stumbled the first few minutes but she became adjusted quickly. Do you think I should place her on baytril or should I continue with the trimethoprim? Until now she's had no infections but now that I saw the small amount of puss... The skin on the edges is still growing inward quickly.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

NO ZIP TIES!!! They have a magical way of tightening just by pressure. It's not worth the risk. Last year a treated 3 birds with zip ties put on by breeders who thought they knew what they were doing, and there were tragic results. Yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> Dilute Iodine works nicely. I am treating a quail right now for a bad head injury, and he kept scratching at it, so I haloed him. It works great. Use paper plate, cut a hole out in the center, slit on side and then line the inside with some soft tape cloth, and then put around the neck and tape. Just make sure the feed and water bowls are high enough up to get at, and that you bird can lay down freely. Yong
> 
> PS. I don't hobble because I personally feel that part of getting better is greatly influenced by mobility and active daily living.


Thank you Yong, we're getting ready to get a few supplies right now, I'll get the Iodine. Does your quail have the Duoderm patch on? Now the paper plate thing is a great idea also. We might try it later on today.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

yes he has the patch on. But he is not completely scalped. Dilute the iodine to a strong tea like color. Watch the eyes=) Yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> NO ZIP TIES!!! They have a magical way of tightening just by pressure. It's not worth the risk. Last year a treated 3 birds with zip ties put on by breeders who thought they knew what they were doing, and there were tragic results. Yong


I understand what you're saying but when the bird walks it causes the string between the ties to pull outward not having any effect on the tie as far as tightening it. Once we tightened the ties to our liking we cut the access ends off.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> yes he has the patch on. But he is not completely scalped. Dilute the iodine to a strong tea like color. Watch the eyes=) Yong


Thanks a lot Yong, we'll do


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There's only about 30,000 different ways to do this so it's often best to stick with whatever you've started and keep an eye on it. That sometimes (actually pretty often) works better than swaying back and forth to all the different suggestions. 

However, I think Yong's saying that the ties can tighten, strangle the blood supply and then the bird loses the feet. As she has bona fide personal experience, it's something to legitimately consider. That would be tragic and so you really need to check for that several times daily absolutely without fail until those shackles are off the legs. Or, take the safe way and halo the bird instead.

As to the meds, if you're giving the bird an internal course of Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Bactrim is one), then it's best to finish out the course before switching to another except where indications point to increasing infection or morbidity.

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

I understand your point Pidgey but I don't mind trying different things until I find something that works best. Unfortunately the collar didn't work out. She managed to stick her beak under and injured her knob. So we're back to the ties. I really see no danger in using them but I think I know what Yong is referring to. Some breeders use the very thin colored ties to sex their birds. I got a few birds wearing them. I always remove them because aesthetically they don't look good. Now if the breeder doesn't cut the end, the bird might pick at it pulling on the end of the tie and tightening it (that's why the excess end that goes through the zipper needs to be clipped off at the zipper) 
We haven't been able to find Baytril at the farm supply store and by the time we got home she developed redness and inflammation on the skin. I called the local animal hospital and was told that they don't do birds but we've been able to find a vet who occasionally treats them. He gave us Trypzyme-V liquid to keep the area moist and to assist healing by facilitating the removal of necrotic tissue, exudate and organic debris. Has anyone used this? We also got the Baytril so for now I'm at peace.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

SweetSpirit,

The best person to talk to on PigeonTalk for chemical debriders is feralpigeon. She's got one called Panofil that's about $100 a tube (small toothpaste tube). She says it's a miracle worker and it's a prescription item--you don't just buy it over the counter. You can do an internet search and compare the ingredients and see if it's nearly the same as what you've got. 

Anyhow, feralpigeon swears by it but I've never seen it in action. Those types of products are used by medical professionals so I know they're not snake oil but as to how to properly use them, I'm certainly not the person to ask--your vet and the instruction sheet should be your guide.

Pidgey


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Okay, My last post here. The bird needs to see a vet, with a treatment plan that will be stuck to. Most medications will run 10-14 days and takes nearly as long to see what the results may come of it. The Halo was too loose, that is why she got her beak under. Zip ties can tighten when the bird lays down and pressure is applied to the outer edge of the rim. ANY SIZE tie can do this. 

I once knew a lady in Northern Florida who spent more time screwing with what she thought was best for the bird rather than doing what needed to be done. She thought she could fix it, she tried everything, she switched drugs, because she thought she knew them all, she homeopathed this bird to death, but this is what happened. Had she done the right thing to start, this would not have happened. 

Please don't wait too long. Don't experiemnt either. It is a precious life that needs a fast and stable resolution. Be kind to your baby and get it the help it needs. This is a wound that can quickly make progress, if gotten on immediatly. Yong


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Just to throw my 2 cents in. The bag ties, pardon me, are a no brainer.  Not only can they tighten but they can also cut into the skin. You can't monitor the bird 24/7 so best take the darn things off.

Maggie


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> Okay, My last post here. The bird needs to see a vet, with a treatment plan that will be stuck to. Most medications will run 10-14 days and takes nearly as long to see what the results may come of it. The Halo was too loose, that is why she got her beak under. Zip ties can tighten when the bird lays down and pressure is applied to the outer edge of the rim. ANY SIZE tie can do this.
> 
> *If the bird could lay on the side and have the upper leg swollen or heavy enough to put enough pressure on the zipper to close than yes, you're right. If the bird lays as they normally do, I can't see how the zipper could stand up for the bird to sit on it and tighten it. Would you please tie a bird for a few minutes and see for yourself if the bird can tighten the tie by sitting on it? By putting the pressure yourself. As if the bird would sit on it. It doesn't even make sense but we're obviously having this conversation... *
> 
> ...


*Yong, no offense here but I really don't know what you're talking about. What experiment?! The only thing I've experimented was the collar which has been suggested by you and no, it was not cut to large. If you're so weary about the zip ties I'm surprised you're not weary about the paper collar which can easily cut through the skin, especially if cut so tight that the bird can't stick it's beak under, considering also the softness of the fatty skin which gives. 
And for the record, this is not my first bird that pulled through a head injury without meds and nobody's experimenting here. My first injured bird has been seen by a vet back in Ft. Lauderdale who only "glued" what he said he could. She healed perfectly. With my second bird I didn't even bother going to the vet. she also healed perfectly without glue or anything else. The Nicobar I'm treating right now pulled beautifully for over a month without meds. Looking at the first picture you can see for yourself that no reconstructive surgery could have been done at that point. So, if she would have been seen by a vet from the beginning I'm pretty sure she would have been placed on Baytril, Amoxicillin or similar for 10 or 14 days. Would have that changed what happened two days ago? She got an infection because she scratched, not because she didn't take antibiotics in the beginning. I started her on trimethoprim two days ago because the scratch got infected and because that's what I had in the house and it was better than waiting until a vet could see her. Please don't give me lessons about precious lives when there are people out there who really need them. It would be appreciated if you could search the facts before drawing conclusions.*


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

This is the first picture of the injury.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

.

Pidgey[/QUOTE]
Hi Pidgey, 
I've been away from the computer all day. She's doing very well, I started her on Baytril yesterday. Last night we've softened the entire area with Iodine diluted with warm water as Yong suggested (I appreciate the advice Yong, thank you very much) for about 30 min and we gently removed the old scab. I than applied the oily stuff I got from the vet which says to deliver Trypsin to the area. I like it more than the ointment, it keeps the area moist longer. I took a picture as soon as we cleaned the area, I'll resize it and attach it. Her legs are still tied, she got used to it but I placed her in a cage which we cushioned very well to protect her head in case she gets flighty, but so far she's been an angel. We let her out every time we're in the family room, she already got used with the dog and the cat. She sat on my shoulder while I was watching TV today which was pretty cute, she's quite a large bird. And that's about it. Here are the pictures.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Use plastic bandettes instead of zip ties. My collar is also padded. I usually think things through. Yong


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

*Stephanie Sparkman*

This is for your own good Ruxandra....The bird in my last post belonged to Stephanie Sparkman. These birds also belonged to her. There were many others as well. Did she tell you about the Hydrogen Peroxide poisoning?? That it will help with Candida?? Did she go on and on about ECOLI?????

I have a long medical history with that woman. I drove to her house, and know first hand. I spent my own money to fix these poor creatures. DON'T GET ME STARTED!

Use a doctor, use antibiotics, and forget ANY advice Sparkman gives you. medication and my vet fixed those birds. nearly every moderator here can vouch where these birds came from and that I cared for them. 

You go ahead and tell her it's me, and that I am throwing her under the bus. The brown one couldn't even move. All were being tube fed with aquarium tubing, with the exceeption of Beaker who was left to find food for himself. Can you imagine with all that crud on your face trying to find your food?? She did ask me to kill him. I took him home and fixed him. To a DOCTOR with MEDICATION.

I don't care how many birds you own...it's how you takecare of them that counts, and your friend Stephanie is no hero. If you learn anything from this whole post , learn that, it will save you some heartache. yong


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yong said:


> This is for your own good Ruxandra....The bird in my last post belonged to Stephanie Sparkman. These birds also belonged to her. There were many others as well. Did she tell you about the Hydrogen Peroxide poisoning?? That it will help with Candida?? Did she go on and on about ECOLI?????
> 
> I have a long medical history with that woman. I drove to her house, and know first hand. I spent my own money to fix these poor creatures. DON'T GET ME STARTED!
> 
> ...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*OK .. Time To Get Back On Track*

Now that Yong has had her say and Ruxandra hers, let's please get back on track in this thread.

The condition of the birds coming out of Stephanie's home truly was horrific, so I think it is important for folks to know that she might not be the best source of information, but this is something a newer member would not know.

Stephanie used to be (years ago) very, very active on the doves-pigeons list and was always involved in controversial discussions there. 

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'm not a moderator but I think I'll step in anyway although I'm going to try and calm things down a bit. After some research, Ruxandra, I guess you have the distinction of living very close to Stephanie Sparkman and that's not a crime, of course, but she is responsible for Beaker who was the bird of this original thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10012

and is the one pictured further back in this very thread, shown with the horrific growths on his face, bending him down with the burden. As Yong dealt with that, it's going to very difficult for her to not be emotional about it. Yong is one of the very best of us rehabbers and devotes great personal energy and resource (money and talent) to it, it's one of her reasons for living and she's very good at it. She's a good one to learn from.

Now, I've heard enough about Stephanie Sparkman to have developed my own judgment and it's less than pretty but that's another story and maybe we should all just let that one go. If you're not personally involved with her then that's great--you're obviously way-the-h***-and-gone better off.

As to the method of hobbling vs. the neck halo, well... I've seen one method work on one pigeon that didn't work well on another and <SURPRISE!>... uh, oh! So, let's just make sure that things go okay regardless of which is chosen and hope for the best. Personally, I've used the tape because it's LAZIER and it works (mostly) although I've only done it for splay-legged chicks. I did have one once that I needed to immobilize for a badly broken wing and I strung that bird up in a swing for a week.

Now, back to your little Nicobar, how are we doing? I've read about the enzymatic debriders and there's a point at which they seem to need to be tapered off because they can impede progress so what are you seeing there? Also, can you gauge a thickness of the membrane at the edges of the skin down to the actual skull? I was looking at that last picture and it seems like there might be a boundary where the actual feathered skin of the neck comes up like a collar. From the picture, that looks like it's where true skin stops as if a fold. Is that an optical illusion and the skin really just loses thickness gradually down to where the membrane ends and you're down to real bone?

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Now, back to your little Nicobar, how are we doing? I've read about the enzymatic debriders and there's a point at which they seem to need to be tapered off because they can impede progress so what are you seeing there? Also, can you gauge a thickness of the membrane at the edges of the skin down to the actual skull? I was looking at that last picture and it seems like there might be a boundary where the actual feathered skin of the neck comes up like a collar. From the picture, that looks like it's where true skin stops as if a fold. Is that an optical illusion and the skin really just loses thickness gradually down to where the membrane ends and you're down to real bone?
> 
> Pidgey


She's doing unexpectedly well, really. When I look at her first pictures I can't believe how fast she healed so far. I got two more pictures, whatever you see pink is new grown tissue. No, there's no more exposed bone, not even in the top of the head. She might be completely healed in about a week but the tissue will probably keep thickening for a while, based on what I've seen in the back of the neck, the area that you say it looks like a collar. She first grew new tissue and now it gradually thickens toward the top of the head.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Wow, Ruxandra,*

Your Nicobar has certainly come a long healing way from the first injury picture! Hope all continues to go well and will look forward to seeing a head full of feathers!  

Keep up the good work!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that is the big question, isn't it--whether or not the feather follicles will regenerate? If they do, it should take on the order of a small few months if Phil's bird's experience is exemplary for this case.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

What a big difference from the first picture, I hope and pray this pigeon continues to progress and that indeed the feather follicles are regenerated, eventually replacing the area with nice feathering. This bird has suffered so much, hopefully it is feeling much better now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I expect it itches like the dickens, but that should be about it. That, and a cool breeze might be a tad overly refreshing. Worst case, we can fix that in the future with an old-style aviator's cap from the days of biplanes.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Wow, Ruxandra, what an improvement, I know you've got to be feeling a tremendous relief even tho you're not out of the woods yet with this poor bird.

I see Poo says that I'm the expert on enzymatic debriders, such a little darling

I recently posted a link to an article that discussed Panofil, maggots, etc. Curious bedfellows but maybe not. At any rate, not an expert, just happen to own a tube and had instruction on how to use it for someone else-bit of a story there. It's a human drug, not avian, but does work on birds. I simply have not figured out what I could possibly say to a doctor to get him to give me a script for it at my HMO. When it's gone, I might not be able to replace it. 

It works for me when needed, but I'm not sure if it's a good solution over time for our birds, as I have to figure how to get over the acquisition hurdle.

Thanks for all you've done for your bird to help it recover, she sure is looking soooo much better!

fp


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

SweetSpirit said:


> She might be completely healed in about a week



That's what I said last night but this is how she looks today. She really amazes me.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> Your Nicobar has certainly come a long healing way from the first injury picture! Hope all continues to go well and will look forward to seeing a head full of feathers!
> 
> Keep up the good work!


Thanks mr Squeaks (cute name  ) If Phil's bird got new feathers I can't see why she wouldn't grow new ones. With all the fast improvement I surely have a positive attitude


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> What a big difference from the first picture, I hope and pray this pigeon continues to progress and that indeed the feather follicles are regenerated, eventually replacing the area with nice feathering. This bird has suffered so much, hopefully it is feeling much better now.


Thank you Treesa. I have been praying for this birdie quite a lot also, especially in the night when she got started on Baytril. She vomited several times and also refused to eat and to drink. I didn't stop praying until I felt that my prayer was answered and I asked for a sign, that I would go to her and she would have something to drink. I got close to her, she was in the same spot I left her but immediately she got up and started eating  I'd feel so lost without....

Yeah, she's feeling well. Right now she's in top of the fridge  She was pretty much active most of the time. Thanks


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> I see Poo says that I'm the expert on enzymatic debriders, such a little darling
> 
> *Poo? This is definitely my favorite list, I learn new things every day!  *
> Thanks for all you've done for your bird to help it recover, she sure is looking soooo much better!fp


Thank you fp


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Hi Yong,
I feel sorry for the way things turned out. The important thing is that we both care of the well being of the birds. Take care


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi sweetspirit,


Forgive me, I have gotten a little lost here...

...why is your Bird on Batryl..? or was the reference to that from some time passed, when the injury initially occurred? But not now? Or?

Thanks...!

Best wishes...

Phil
(harried in...)
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi sweetspirit,
> 
> 
> Forgive me, I have gotten a little lost here...
> ...


Hi Phil,
She scratched on the 4th I believe and she's got coagulated blood all over the skull. I'll reattach the photo for you. Then she scratched again, the skull this time and she developed a little puss in that area. I was afraid that she might develop a larger infection and being to close to the brain I didn't want to take any chance. Since you asked, I placed her on Baytril on the 6th. She doesn't eat well ever since, if you look at the picture I attached today (not the one attached to this post, the previous one) you can see that she's almost healed. Do you think will be safe now to take her off Baytril? I know this drug works well as far as infections but it messes her stomach completely. I also wanted to ask you, how long after your bird got the baby skin started to re-grow feathers? Did you keep the area moist until she grew the feathers or only until she healed? Thanks.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Oh, I expect it itches like the dickens, but that should be about it. That, and a cool breeze might be a tad overly refreshing. Worst case, we can fix that in the future with an old-style aviator's cap from the days of biplanes.
> 
> Pidgey


   I almost missed this one. Hm....Do you think she'll keep itching even after she'll be loosing all the scab?


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Here's the last picture I took today at 5:34 pm. I deleted and reattach it 'cause even myself I get lost in my own thread


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How long do scabs and the wounds under them continue to itch on you? I've heard it said about us that when the wound is completely skinned over (complete membrane) that it's only really about 5% healed and that the underlayers have to fill in with collagen fibers or something like that. Now, bird skin is a lot thinner than ours and certainly doesn't have the tensile strength so I expect it heals a lot faster. My guess would be that it'll still itch a week after the finally sealing but it'll be a lot longer until the skin can form follicles.

Frankly, I don't think that Phil's bird exhibited a large patch of exposed skull so that's the question here. If this bird does, in fact, eventually regenerate feather follicles then it would illustrate a much greater capacity for regeneration than we have although we do know that they can't regenerate a lost limb like a frog or other amphibian can. However, for now, I'd be real happy (as I'm sure everyone else here would) to see your Nicobar regenerate the lost pate. Got a few follicles that I'd like to replace myself and it'd give me hope!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sweetspirit, Pidgey, 


Ummmmm...I'd say skip the Batryil, especially if it seems to be messing with her appetite...

Simple 'Neosporin' would likely be plenty good enough for her occasions of scratching-bleeding of the afflicted area...

Leave any scabs alone...do not remove them or mess with them...keep them moist with 'Neosporin'...they will NOT itch as much when kept moist, but they may still itch some...

'Crow-Baby' --- I never touched the large scab which WAS the entire dead skin-flesh of the top of his head...

I kept it moist with Neosporin..I did not adminster any other antibiotics...

As the scab shrank and hardened over time, you could see his skull under it in several areas through the cracks in the scab, and around the sides...

Once all new skin-flesh was grown in and filled in, the scab came off on it's own...

Two months later...after being 'bald' with his perfect pink new skin, incipient Feathers began to sprout, then all came in perfectly as if nothing had ever happenned.

Because I never messed with his injury in any way, I never did any debrideing or peroxide or cleaning or anything, and, there was no scar tissue to be seen once all was healed.

I would not discount this possibility for your Bird, even at this stage, but do consider that at least in my experience, one does well to leave the scab(s) be and merely keep the antire area moist with Neosporin...

So, at least as far as what I would do with this goes...I would leave it be, keep it moist and skip the Batryl, and hope she starts eating and having a good appetite again...

If I had to, I would affix some little cap to keep her from bumping or scratching the afflicted area, or, fit some of that 'duoderm' on there and even glue it on if need be, and leave it on for a long time.


Best wishes to all..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pikachu23739 (Jan 6, 2006)

*I like all the pigeon pictures*


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## Pikachu23739 (Jan 6, 2006)

*but the poor baby pigeon*


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

In several of the references on the hydroactive dressings, they often suture them in place at the edges. I only have the hydrocolloid gel at this point and haven't had occasion to try the dressings yet. In using the hydrocolloid gel in the pit in Pierpont's chest, I found that it will eventually dry up and have to be replaced. I actually had to dig it out of that hole like a dried booger (nice image, eh?).

I'm not sure but I'm thinking that the gel is a medicated form of silica gel in the hydrated form. Now, the dressings can't be that but they may be impregnated with it. I did originally spread NeoSporin on Pierpont's exposed breast muscles because they were so inflamed and infected but it actually helped to desiccate the tissue in the absence of a moisture barrier. Of course, I was primarily using it to reduce the infection but if I had it to do over again I would do it another way.

I still use the NeoSporin for some things but mostly smaller wounds, I think. If I had a broad area to cover, I'd give the hydroactive dressing a shot although if it were a fresh wound I'd probably just suture it up. In this case and in Crow-Baby's, you've got a broad area of severely traumatized tissue that might just devitalize but might also be saved if treated properly (we don't know). I guess what I'm saying is that there are different paths to the same end and it's only when you give them each a chance is it possible to compare them. 

So, what we know is that this path which hasn't varied a great deal from what you did with Crow-Baby ultimately works. The road not taken so far is one where the initial wound is cleaned with a Betadine solution and then wrapped up with a hydroactive dressing and the edges sutured down to see if the tissues will regenerate faster. You know, it's a sure bet that someone will end up with a bird like this again and maybe eventually we'll get to try that method. I've no doubt it will work, the question is simply whether it's much faster.

Of course, there's also bringing the other skin forward to take it's place, too. I don't know what a Nicobar's head-feather-length profile is but pulling the lower skin forward might have made him the "First of the Mohicans".

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Hi Phil, Pidgey
Is interesting you brought the messing with the scab, that's one question I'll love to have the right answer for. Would have she healed faster or slower if I would have left the scab in place. She got injured on the Dec 2nd. I removed the scab on the 15th. All she had at that time under the scab was pure bone. A few days later I noticed spider webs of capillaries starting to form and to spread from the edges to the center, becoming a pinkish area within a few days. Would have that occur as fast with the scab in place? Or faster? Or different? But of course I would rather have a scab protecting the skull than to have it exposed even if that would mean a longer healing process. I was so afraid she might bump her head into something. Now if you remember, when she first scratched on the 4th, she removed a thin edge of the original scab that I left in place from the beginning. Why? As I was doing the cleaning at that time I realized that I was cleaning bare bone, not a thin layer of new tissue and I instantly got hot fleshes, seriously. That's why the thin edge of scab was left in place. Hm... I now believe that that very thin edge of scab might have kept the area from shrinking sooner. Judging by how fast it closed in after that scab was finally removed. Phil, here's the picture of the scab she removed by scratching on the 4th. Any thoughts?


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Phil, scroll the page up and look at the picture showing her head after she removed the scab. You can also see how fast the edges filled in after, by looking at the picture on the bottom. What do you think?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When I get scrapes on myself, the scabs become a deterrant to further healing so that's no surprise. If a wound is kept well moistened, it usually heals better and the road not taken that I was referring to would have been to disinfect and seal under a hydrocolloid dressing immediately upon discovery. I'm suggesting that the battered tissue may have been capable of either revitalizing or not having experienced devitalization if it hadn't been allowed to desiccate in the first place which would greatly shorten the time to total regeneration.

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> When I get scrapes on myself, the scabs become a deterrant to further healing so that's no surprise. If a wound is kept well moistened, it usually heals better and the road not taken that I was referring to would have been to disinfect and seal under a hydrocolloid dressing immediately upon discovery. I'm suggesting that the battered tissue may have been capable of either revitalizing or not having experienced devitalization if it hadn't been allowed to desiccate in the first place which would greatly shorten the time to total regeneration.
> 
> Pidgey


I totally agree Pidgey. It might have been quite tricky to use the dressings on her head from the beggining but yes, if I would deal with a similar situation again, the hydrocolloid dressings would be my first choice. I already purchased some from Ebay at less than half price, they should be here today.The use of ointment alone doesn't spare the injured area from forming scab, judging by Phil's experience.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

I mean the flesh to die to the bone.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sweetspirit, Pidgey,


Hmmmm...

My own opinion, impirically, is to leave a scab alone, to keep it moist, and not to mess with it. Then, once things are healed enough under it, the scab falls off on it's own...

Now, for some kinds of injuries, punctures say, which got foreign matter pushed 'in' which then get sealed off by the scab...these of course should be cleaned out,flushed out, probed and so on, then either sutured or left be according to one's judgement.


But say, the kind of injury we are considering here of the scalp, where from severe trauma of being pecked hundreds of times maybe, the entire, or a-l-m-o-s-t entore, flesh and skin on the top of the head dies and must be regenerated...I believe it is best NOT to clean it or mess with it in any way, from the onset on, but simply to keep it moist with Neosporin, and just let the healing take it's course, which will take some weveral weeks.

I think by cleaning or messing with the initial injury, and the subsequent hardening mass of dried blood and dead flesh and skin, the in effect larger combinant thing we could call the 'scab', I think that if we mess with it, we would interfere with the delicate processes that are trying to go on, and make matters will take much longer to heal.

Even the whole dead top area of flesh and skin still would have had some tiny amounts of still living capilaries and very small locallizations if liveing tissue, which would be inviteing the new regenerations to proceed to them, around them, from them, and with them. These would not be enough to keep the scalp alive, but might be enough to make a good difference just in their being there TO provide something more than a large barren expanse needing to be filled in from the edges.

Most Birds, certainly most Pigeons anyway, tend to have pretty darned good immune systems, and very good hyealing capacities, and often do very well with no antibiotics at all in many kinds of injuries, even those we per-force advise antibiotics for.

Crow-Baby was an otherwise healthy 16 or 18 day old Squeaker when he was attacked by Crows and had his head pecked so terribly much.

I just elected to keep his injury moist with Neosporin, and let him, let his body's innate know how, do the rest...which it did do, and did very well with.

I held my breath for those several weeks once I realized the whole top of his head was become a sickly grey color and starting to crack and shrink. I could see his skull through the little cracks of the bottle-cap sized 'scab', of the scab which was both 'scab' and dead, drying, shrinking flesh and skin...I was horrified to imagine it would come off to reveal a naked skull...so...I just hoped for the best...and daily moistened it with Neosporin, and that was all I did.

The 'scab' for want of a better term, stayed on, and when it did come off by itself several weeks later, there were a few tiny bloody dots here and there in the middle showing me that there had been a few tiny areas that were not dead through out, that had remained as 'outposts' for the new area to fill in around, from and to.

So, this made me think that if I had done what everyone always does, to clean, remove the scab and dead tissue, and disinfect...that if I had done that, the healing would have been interfered with and made to proceed much more slowly perhaps...and he would have had a bare skull for however long while things grew back in from the edges only.

So, based on my admittedly only 'one' occasion of dealing with this kind of injury, the sense I make of it's nature, leads me to believe that one does best to leave it alone, keep it moist, and be patient...

If signs of infection seem to be evident, then one can deal with that as one sees fit. Otherwise, generally, I would not worry about it and I have seen many bloody injuries of Pigeons which never showed the Bird or the affflicted area to have any infection and they stayed healthy while recovering from the injury. Or where I merely used some one or few applications of a topical antibiotic and that was that.

So, for some redundant summary ( sorry...! - Lol...) I think it is worth it to preserve the possible few remaining 'outposts' of still livveing tissue, to simply leave this kind of injury to heal on it's own devices, while we merely keep it moist with something such as Neosporin, and wait...rather than to let it dry out too fast, or to remove it or to clean and disinfect and so on which will kill or remove those possibly very important few remaining tiny areas on the skull of still living tissue, or possibly few tiniest capilaries still wangleing their way possibly howsoever so, from which, to which and around which, new regenerative progress would be proceeding if we let it.

Even if all the area is really dead and no tiny outposts remain, I would think that if it is dealt with as 'if' some might remain, it is still better, since the Bird's body recognises that 'cap' as being it's own protective barrier for healing and regeneration to proceed literally 'under'...



This is my naive appreciation anyway...


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Well, what I had in mind if I were to come across one again would be to just rinse it off with a Betadine-Water solution quickly and then seal it under the fake skin. I didn't mean to go whole hog scrubbin' with a dried corn cob.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, that last line - only a southerner could come up with it. I have laughed myself silly.  

Maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Phil,
> 
> Well, what I had in mind if I were to come across one again would be to just rinse it off with a Betadine-Water solution as a quickly and then seal it under the fake skin. I didn't mean to go whole hog scrubbin' with a dried corn cob.
> 
> Pidgey


Yahhhhhhh...sounds good...and keep it 'moist' after that somehow...

What are some ideas for the keeping it moist? while keeping it germ-free, more or less also...

Of course I had used the 'Neosporin'...but, any other ideas?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

From one Southerner to another... they don' toak lahk' 'at upn' Noo Yoke Cittee, huh?

Phil,

The hydroactive dressing acts as a moisture barrier to keep it from drying out (that's precisely what it's for) and the right prophylactic antibiotic keeps infection at bay. I HAD to fight the war with Pierpont from the inside out with antibiotics because she'd a knocked a buzzard off a highway 'possum plate special from 50 yards downwin' ina' torr-nader.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Lady Tarheel,
> 
> I HAD to fight the war with Pierpont from the inside out with antibiotics because she'd a knocked a buzzard off a highway 'possum plate special from 50 yards downwin' ina' torr-nader.
> 
> Pidgey


Ahh, Poo, could you do a translation for that one?

wild west impaired,

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

Sure. Pierpont stunk.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Lady Tarheel,
> 
> From one Southerner to another... they don' toak lahk' 'at upn' Noo Yoke Cittee, huh?
> 
> ...


Pidgey, you have OUTDONE yourself with that description!   Took me a good 5 minutes to be able to stop laughing enough to write this reply! 

There are special people in this world who are naturally funny (sometimes even when they don't mean to be. Of course, I know that DOESN'T apply to you )

AND, an advantage that I can share with Maggie, is being able to 'translate' "Southernese!" You have made my day!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey Shi - ah shore ken.  Born in Georgia, reared in NC - how much more southern can you get.

Maggie


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

I want to thank all the members that have stuck with me throughout the rehab ordeal and a very special thanks to Pidgey and Phil. Now that she's nearly healed I will not be posting as often as I did but occasionally I'll update you on her progress. I'm looking forward to chatting with you on upcoming topics


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Hey Shi - ah shore ken.  Born in Georgia, reared in NC - how much more southern can you get.
> 
> Maggie


I would say "you can't." 

And, you have me way beat. Being an Air Force brat, I was born in Texas and also lived there when Dad was re-stationed some years later. Of course, Texans do tend to have their own lingo (drawl) and when ah moved to the Finger Lakes region of NY from TX, I shore 'nuf did have a kinda accent - well, that's what them Yankee kids said anyway! Also lived in Biloxi, MS and visited the Blue Ridge Mountains. My former husband was from the southern part of Ohio and I was really surprised to hear the "Southern lilt" in a Yankee state! Weird...to this day, if I'm around Texans or Southerners, I pick up the talk REAL quick. Some may think I am making fun of them but the "drawl" comes back very easily! Drove my Yankee step-mother crazy when we would say "y'all!" She'd said, "you means eyes, ears and nose all?!"

There was a Candid Camera episode when the crew visited the "deep" South and tried to get a mechanic to say "oil." Came out "all."  

Sorry, Ruxandra - got carried away and side-tracked!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Hi Ruxandra,*

I don't remember seeing a name for your little one. She sure has been through a lot. I hope all goes well with her healing and we'll see her with a full set of feathers!

Do you have a name for her???


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

SweetSpirit said:


> I want to thank all the members that have stuck with me throughout the rehab ordeal and a very special thanks to Pidgey and Phil. Now that she's nearly healed I will not be posting as often as I did but occasionally I'll update you on her progress. I'm looking forward to chatting with you on upcoming topics



Hi Ruxandra,


Yes, please stay in touch with her progress...


She seems like such a sweet and unusual Pigeon, and I am very glad she has done so well getting through that terribly injury...and we are all wishing her and you the best...!


So...post some pics as things continue to progress...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> I don't remember seeing a name for your little one. She sure has been through a lot. I hope all goes well with her healing and we'll see her with a full set of feathers!
> 
> Do you have a name for her???


Hello everyone,
We've been visiting our parents in GA for the past few days. I got your email Pidgey right before we left -thanks for asking- and I planed to update on Nico (that's how my husband named her) from over there but my husband forgot the laptop at home. How come there's always somebody or something handy to blame things on  Anyway, she's recovering well and still growing tissue where the scab is. It looks like they have thicker tissue in that area, I'll have to take another look now at the last posted pictures to see how much tissue she grew since. She's been left at home all this time so no ointment was applied on her scalp until last night, I don't know if the ointment would have made a difference at this point. So here is the picture. I'll take a few more maybe tomorrow, we have quite a few things to catch up with since we left. Talk to you later


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yeah, looking at the previous picture the ointment would have made a difference. The scab is definitely interfering with the healing process.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi SweetSpirit, 



Wow...!


So, now the new flesh/skin HAS completely grown over the previously exposed Skull?


Am I seeing right here in the image?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi SweetSpirit,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Phil, I guess you do  She is also starting to develop the black pigment, look near the eyes area in this picture and at the one before I guess, for comparison. 

I was just looking over the pictures we took over the past few days and I'm thinking that would be nice to share some of them you guys  I'll delete them tomorrow. In the first picture there's my husband with our Papillon Sp-J, our rescued Chihuahua Lilu, there's my father in law holding their 14 years old kitty and my mother in law holding our Papillon Sunny, now living with them. Sunny was having hours long seizures since he was 3 months old. After he's been seen by five vets, we've been left with almost $3000 bills and a diagnostic that he won't make it over 8 months old. He was almost put down at 6 months old. When the vets gave up hope, I took him off all drugs and I placed him on a 100% safe and natural course. Thanks God and the internet, it's been over 10 months since he's had the last seizure. He is now an almost 2 years old strong and happy pup  
In the second picture my father in law brought in two of their beautiful birds to show them off


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What kind of seizures? There's definitely a relationship between the AEDs (AntiEpileptic Drugs) and Epileptic seizures. It can get real fun. I've got a young pigeon that has seizures although they're not the clonic-tonic type, thank goodness. He's quietly sleeping beside me right now.

Looks like a nice place and Nico's looking better, too. Thanks for the update.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks for the update, Sweet Spirit. Nico is looking good and I'm sure new feathers will eventually grow.

Lovely home your in-laws have. Looks like they are critter people too! Thanks for the pictures!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great pics and lovely critters you've got there.
Just love a house full of critters.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, Reti,

Ain't no house complete without 'em!

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> What kind of seizures? There's definitely a relationship between the AEDs (AntiEpileptic Drugs) and Epileptic seizures. It can get real fun. I've got a young pigeon that has seizures although they're not the clonic-tonic type, thank goodness. He's quietly sleeping beside me right now.
> 
> Looks like a nice place and Nico's looking better, too. Thanks for the update.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey,
We've been working all day on the new flights decorating and all that. Starting on Friday she'll be moved outside, I'm sure she'll love the new place, we also love it for ourselves  I will post some pictures once they're settled in. 

Sunny's had both grand mal and petite mal seizures. The odd thing was that once he would start a seizure it would last until morning. We ran to the ER for the first three times and we also kept him hospitalized for two days on one occasion but nobody and nothing was able to stop his seizures. I'm not talking about cluster seizures, I'm talking about a hours long seizure. We did testings for the Wobbler's syndrome just in case, liver shunt, he was suspect of cerebellar ataxia at one point, the only clue remained his low T4. We sent blood samples in CA to Dr. Jean Dodds who's trying to prove that there's a connection between low T4 and epilepsy. The truth is that many epileptic pups have low T4 but Sunny's hours long seizures puzzled everybody. Once he would start a seizure, I would take him in my arms and help him fall asleep. It wasn't always easy, sometimes he would be afraid of me and everything else but once he would fall asleep you could jump next to him and talk as loud as you'd please and he wouldn't be aware of the surroundings. At about 7am he would just wake up like the most normal, healthy pup with no post ictal behavior. His seizures would always start at night until he's been 6 months old. At that time the vet placed him under the anesthesia for a spine x-ray. Soon after, he fell in an almost three days focal seizure for the first day, getting worse thereafter. I refused to euthanize him and from that day on I took care of him by myself. Long journey. 
The first choice drug prescribed for canine epilepsy is phenobarbital and if that alone doesn't work potassium bromide is added. Of course there are a few other approaches as kepra, primidone, felbamate, gabapentin.....I joined a group for canine epilepsy at that time, the side effects the pups on the first two drugs taken together are having are horrible and their life is miserable from my point of view. I have so much respect for the owners who are putting up with this monster, that's how they call it. I could speak for hours about canine epilepsy and I have to remind myself that this is a pigeon forum. Sorry guys, I've been carried away.

Pidgey, if that would be my bird, I would take seriously the supplements Treesa is mentioning on this forum. The stronger and healthier the bird is, the easier is for it to overcome the seizures. The stress is also the number 1 enemy for an epileptic patient regardless of what type of seizures and what's causing them but I'm sure you already know that. Do you medicate your bird?


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> Lovely home your in-laws have. Looks like they are critter people too!


How did you guess?


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Yeah, Reti,
> 
> Ain't no house complete without 'em!
> 
> Pidgey


Couldn't agree more! 

Thanks Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

SweetSpirit,

I never gave him any of the AEDs. His seizures are episodic--he can go long periods of time without them and then have several in a row. They aren't tied specifically to stress. There is no proprioceptive deficit, paresis or ataxia. There may be a nystagmus. There is torticollis but not quite like PMV. He mostly just turns his head around and circles. The aural and post-ictal phases are virtually nonexistent.

The probable cause is more than likely originally a horrible case of Trichomoniasis that I barely pulled him back from. He can't see out of his right eye, his skull is malformed around the back and his growth is slower than average but his feathers are beautiful and healthy.

Other than that, he's a good little fella and in great health. He just had a really rough start and should have died.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


...could this possibly be an 'inner Ear' issue? With your Bird I mean...

Although this is really SweetSpirit's thread and all...

Anyway, the drug 'Gentacin' or 'Gentamicin' should be avoided for Birds ( or anyone) for it's ability to damage the balance portion of the inner Ear in such a way as to produce occasional bouts of what from the outside then, are seen as odd head/neck twistings, body contortions and seeming light fits, which are actually balance/equilibrium issues...these being the body's response to instability of the oeientation center of the Eras rather than neurologic in a motor-cortex kind of way.

Phil
Las Vegas

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Yeah, I know what you're saying. The vet didn't think it was vestibular disease and I don't have antibiotics like the one you're talking about. I haven't found anything in the writings that mention whether the typical seizures for that kind of thing are episodic or continuous. His balance is pretty doggone good because he can fly down in the middle of a seizure if you let him drop. Sometimes, that alone will stop one (like a surprise sometimes stops hiccups) and sometimes not.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 

Ahhhhh, not inner Ear-Balance centered then, if he can do that...

Actually, I think most 'Gentamicin' damage leaves chronic disability, but maybe some could be margainal enough for the symptoms to be occasional-epidosic, possibly...


Oye...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi SweetSpirit,

Looks like your pij is doing a hell of a lot better these days! Nice pics of the family and friends--just knew that was father and son  .

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhhhh fp,


This makes me very happy...!


My own little 'Squeaker-Bug', "Crow Baby" who had a similar injury, whose healing ended up as good as if nothing had ever happenned at all ( except for his Beak and Wattles, but so far as his Head proper otherwise was concerned) that I believed, I had faith, this Bird also would do the seeming impossible, AND with the less meddleing, the better!

...and I never wavered in my feelings privately, even if I did not dare to assert them too much for fear of jinxing things...!

Lol...

Anyway...the next phase of course, which m-a-y happen after some pause...is for the incipient Feathers to start sprouting like little five O'clock 'shadow' all over that little head's top...


So, I got my fingers crossed for that part to be the 'news' in another month or so...five weeks maybe...


We shall see...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> SweetSpirit,
> 
> I never gave him any of the AEDs. His seizures are episodic--he can go long periods of time without them and then have several in a row. They aren't tied specifically to stress.
> 
> ...


I tried to submit the thread and I was told that it is to short


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Yes Pidgey,
You've been one step ahead of me this time. While I was cleaning the flights today I thought that it's about time that I update you. Well, I don't see much of a difference from last time. I've been a bad mommy and I no longer applied the ointment until three days ago. I wanted to, but I kept getting caught in other things and as she's now living outside I also kept forgetting. How bad is that  The other two don't seem to reject or avoid her but I did place six ringnecks with them to cheer things up. The other two guys have been living in an empty bedroom all that time and it looked to me that they got a little depressed. Same with Nico, ever since I forced her to get Baytril she was no longer willing to climb on my hand, she lost her appetite, even after I stopped giving her Baytril. She no longer sat next to us, it looked like depression to me. I wasn't sure if they will or not be aggressive to the ringnecks but it all worked better than I hoped. The RN are very easy going, curious and don't get intimidated, they mind their own thing. In the first night they were all sitting next to each other under the heating lamp. Very sweet thing  Now, when I bring the food in the morning Nico comes and starts eating while I still pour the seeds and the pallets in the feeder while the other two are only watching the whole thing instead of bouncing from one wall to the other, so it's not all lost with Nico. There's of course also one RN hen I handfed when she was a baby, Tweeda. She's in top of my head as soon as I get in and soon the other RN are joining so the two Nicobars are getting to learn that I'm not that bad after all  We also made a sitting area in the middle of the flights, we brought a nice swing, we placed a green exterior carpet , installed an utility sink so they'll all hopefully learn to get very comfortable with us. It's just a matter of having some time to spend watching them  And that's about it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've been feeling so sorry for this bird all along and I finally figured out why--it looks just like me! Same nose, bulging eyes, scruffy hair... what's left of it.

Boy, do I ever feel for this bird!

Well, we've got all the time in the world and hopefully it'll eventually regenerate. Goodness knows I haven't.

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I've been feeling so sorry for this bird all along and I finally figured out why--it looks just like me! Same nose, bulging eyes, scruffy hair... what's left of it.
> 
> Boy, do I ever feel for this bird!
> 
> ...


Send me a picture of yourself so I could put it in her flight so she'll think she's looking in the mirror


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Funny, Rux.

Real funny.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Funny, Rux.
> 
> Real funny.
> 
> Pidgey



Well, Pidgey, you could really help this guy, if he sees that there are others like him he won't have a complex that he is the only one. Please send your pic.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I've been feeling so sorry for this bird all along and I finally figured out why--it looks just like me! Same nose, bulging eyes, scruffy hair... what's left of it.
> 
> Boy, do I ever feel for this bird!
> 
> ...


FINALLY got to play catchup on the site...Pidgey, you made my day! I'm still laughing!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti said:


> Well, Pidgey, you could really help this guy, if he sees that there are others like him he won't have a complex that he is the only one. Please send your pic.
> 
> Reti


Reti,

Don't be ridiculous! This bird doesn't know what it looks like and that's a real good thing. A picture would only frighten it at this point. Hasn't this poor bird been traumatized enough?

MISTER Squeaks,

Laughing? At what?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Reti,
> 
> Don't be ridiculous! This bird doesn't know what it looks like and that's a real good thing. A picture would only frighten it at this point. Hasn't this poor bird been traumatized enough?
> 
> ...


LOL, Pidgey, I didn't know the poor bird didn't know what he looks like.
Sure, we don't want to traumatize him any further. No pictures for this guy.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

MISTER Squeaks,

Laughing? At what?

Pidgey[/QUOTE]

Actually, MISTER Squeaks is NOT laughing...I AM, his human female mate!  

NICE SAVE, Pidgey...VERY nice save...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Gosh, Pidgey, when the bird sees that your neck is missing, I'm sure it will realize you ain't no mirror  

fp


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Gosh, Pidgey, when the bird sees that your neck is missing, I'm sure it will realize you ain't no mirror
> 
> fp


You guys are so funny  

There's no much change with Nico since last time except some more dark pigment, I'll try to get a few pictures today. It seems that the pigment needs a much longer time to regenerate but looking at the last picture I can see that the pink area is shrinking slowly. I also have to admit that I no longer use the ointment on an daily basis, I simply forget about it but we are very pleased and grateful for the way she healed. Of course it would be great to see new feathers coming out one day but she's doing fine without them as well, I'm so tempted to make a joke  
BTW, she's the ruler in her flight, she's the first one to eat what's best, the other two have to wait for her until she's done eating. At this point I'm wondering if she is not a he. Once we'll be done remodeling which will still take a few months  , I'll probably have a DNA test done for all three of them. The ringnecks are still joining them, one pair fostering a baby successfully. I'll be back tonight or tomorrow with new pictures. Take care.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

SweetSpirit said:


> . Of course it would be great to see new feathers coming out one day but she's doing fine without them as well, *I'm so tempted to make a joke  *


Better not, Sweet Spirit, Pidgey is already tramautized!

So GLAD to hear Nico is doing WELL! While there may be no hope for hair rejuvenation for Pidgey, hopefully, NICO will one day have a full head of feathers.

I guess it would be too much to think that Pidgey might like feathers instead of hair!  Wouldn't THAT be a picture!!


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> Better not, Sweet Spirit, Pidgey is already tramautized!
> 
> So GLAD to hear Nico is doing WELL! While there may be no hope for hair rejuvenation for Pidgey, hopefully, NICO will one day have a full head of feathers.
> 
> I guess it would be too much to think that Pidgey might like feathers instead of hair!  Wouldn't THAT be a picture!!


You just couldn't restrain yourself mr. squeaks  but Pidgey, you asked for it my friend  

Here is not a such great picture but you can still get an idea of how she looks like. If she'll regrow the feathers it might take a loooong time.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi SweetSpirit,


Well, she has come a long way...!


Looking good there, very good..

Hmmmmmm, 'Rogane' maybe?

(I was going to buy some for mine! But then he decided to start sprouting Feathers on his head afterall...and, of course, yours might also!)

Really, looking back on my experience with a similar injury Pigeon, there was a couple months of baldness, then, one day, little tiny hints of incipient feathers were starting in, like "5 O'clock Shadow" more or less...and, they grew in wonderfully...


So, just abide for now, and see what happens as Summer nears...


Best wishes!


So glad your little one has done so well there with all your care, from that truely rough and aweful injury...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> Better not, Sweet Spirit, Pidgey is already tramautized!
> 
> So GLAD to hear Nico is doing WELL! While there may be no hope for hair rejuvenation for Pidgey, hopefully, NICO will one day have a full head of feathers.
> 
> I guess it would be too much to think that Pidgey might like feathers instead of hair!  Wouldn't THAT be a picture!!


MIZZZ SQUEAKS...

Judging by the timestamp on and the content of your post (somewhere after Midnight Thirty), I'd say that you were up well past your better judgment's bedtime. Please do, for the sake of us all, attend with better care the requirements of your own 'beauty sleep'. It's obvious that the intrigue of Victor's little romp through The Guessing Game has instilled some bad habits in the matter of your personal time management.

Get over it and go to bed ontime!

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> MIZZZ SQUEAKS...
> 
> Judging by the timestamp on and the content of your post (somewhere after Midnight Thirty), I'd say that you were up well past your better judgment's bedtime. Please do, for the sake of us all, attend with better care the requirements of your own 'beauty sleep'. It's obvious that the intrigue of Victor's little romp through The Guessing Game has instilled some bad habits in the matter of your personal time management.
> 
> ...


My, my, my, aren't we getting "prickly"...maybe I wasn't so off about growing those feathers after all Mr. P. BTW, please note the time - I am WIDE awake and in full possession of ALL my faculties! 

But, to be fair, the late night 'romps' have been instilling some bad habits (namely, I REALLY get carried away late at night!)

AND, as previously mentioned, you DID bring up a comparison with Nico. While Nico doesn't have the most "romantic" profile I've ever seen, he does have a certain charm and cuteness about him. IF you would like to take that as a compliment...feel free... 

Actually, that last picture of Nico DOES look like a few human men I've seen! (and no, Pidgey, I've never seen you so you are not included in that comment. I felt I had to mention this because I know how sensitive you are (or getting...mmmm, male menopause? ROFL)

Mizz Squeaks (aka Shi)
The NOT feather impaired


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, MIZZ Squeaks,

I see you're not "Shi" about hitting below the belt, probably because you were a military *BRAT!!!*

Pidgey the Calm, Cool & C-C-Collected


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*


Pidgey said:



Well, MIZZ Squeaks,

I see you're not "Shi" about hitting below the belt, probably because you were a military BRAT!!!

Pidgey the Calm, Cool & C-C-Collected

Click to expand...

*OK, just one more for the road (so to speak)...you have a POINT about the brat part...however, that was a low blow... 

BTW, you sure don't miss a trick...good memory! I'll have to remember that!!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Sweet Spirit...*

I apologize for all the "back at cha's"...if I'm stepping on your or Nico's tail feathers, please feel free to wing slap me!  

In my defense, that Pidgey just begs for a retort!


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> I apologize for all the "back at cha's"...if I'm stepping on your or Nico's tail feathers, please feel free to wing slap me!


You are all wonderful people and that's what matters the most. Any family may experience some misunderstandings but deep down we all care about each other and we all serve a common purpose, the care and the rehabilitation of birds. 

Pidgey, how is your bird doing? The only good thing about seizures is that the bird doesn't experience any pain. Forgive me if I won't get back to you soon, I'm getting ready to fly to Chicago to pick up our new pup, a Papillon coming from Sweden 

Phil, when I get back I'll share with you a few things I learned about Rogaine and other hair growth formulas. Take care


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

SweetSpirit said:


> You are all wonderful people and that's what matters the most. Any family may experience some misunderstandings but deep down we all care about each other and we all serve a common purpose, the care and the rehabilitation of birds.
> 
> Pidgey, how is your bird doing? The only good thing about seizures is that the bird doesn't experience any pain.


Shi (MIZZ Squeaks) and I don't have any misunderstandings--she picks on me and I have to defend myself! I seem to have that same relationship with other members here...

My little epileptic is about the same. He has several short seizures in a day and there are times of the day that he's worse and times that he's better but he's consistent, anyhow. His seizures only last a minute and they're just circling. He comes right out of them and so it's only an inconvenience for the most part.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi SweetSpirit,

Your Nico is doing remarkably well, and even tho being a bit out of character as a piglet @ the feeding trough, guess I'd have to say that is excellent  .Seems like the birds w/traumatic injuries involving feather loss that I've helped do seem to take a couple of months before feathers start poking their way through the skin again, and hopefully all this bird needs is time for them to renew. I think if the system is not hampered w/illness or nutritional deficiencies that they might face in the wild, then the body can be about the business of focusing on the making of new feathers. You've done really well with this little one and I look forward to your updates when you have the time. Oh yes, and pictures of your new Papillon when you have a chance  .

fp


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> My little epileptic is about the same. He has several short seizures in a day and there are times of the day that he's worse and times that he's better but he's consistent, anyhow. His seizures only last a minute and they're just circling. He comes right out of them and so it's only an inconvenience for the most part.
> 
> Pidgey


It doesn't sound to good, I'm afraid he'll go into status at one point. Would you consider starting him on phenobarbital? I just checked and I have a few pills left, I could mail them to you right now in an envelope if you let me know in about an hour. The dosage in dogs goes 1-1.5mg per 1 lbs of body weight. Also, if Pb is used over 3 months it causes liver failure in dogs. If you decide to put him on PB also start him on Milk Thistle for liver support. Pb decreases the neurons activity but since it affects not only the neurons involved in the seizures the bird could get a little lethargic but do not worry about it. Please let me know if I could help.


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi SweetSpirit,
> 
> Your Nico is doing remarkably well, and even tho being a bit out of character as a piglet @ the feeding trough, guess I'd have to say that is excellent  .Seems like the birds w/traumatic injuries involving feather loss that I've helped do seem to take a couple of months before feathers start poking their way through the skin again, and hopefully all this bird needs is time for them to renew. I think if the system is not hampered w/illness or nutritional deficiencies that they might face in the wild, then the body can be about the business of focusing on the making of new feathers. You've done really well with this little one and I look forward to your updates when you have the time. Oh yes, and pictures of your new Papillon when you have a chance  .
> 
> fp


Thank you fp, I'm glad you asked about the pictures   When dealing with this type of injuries did you keep the area moist all those months?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Sweetspirit,

For some, it was a mute issue, as the pin feathers started poking through while still using the debider or antibiotic topical. For one in particular bird who had multiple health issues and where someone was placing moldy bread for the ferals to eat, she took the longest for the two bald areas to 'feather out'. The skin had long since healed when the feathers started to grow in, so I had d/c'd any topical. She also had an incomplete moult which I am chalking up to her being in general, too health impaired for her system to go full bore into making new feathers when it needed the energy elsewhere. Couldn't walk or fly, slowly started limping around, then one day out of the blue, months afterwards, started flying. There was never any direct injury to the wings and she could use them quite well when held in the air and given the opportunity to excersize them, just couldn't do it w/enuf strength on her own to hold her weight in the air and maintain.

fp


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Sweetspirit,
> 
> For some, it was a mute issue, as the pin feathers started poking through while still using the debider or antibiotic topical. For one in particular bird who had multiple health issues and where someone was placing moldy bread for the ferals to eat, she took the longest for the two bald areas to 'feather out'. The skin had long since healed when the feathers started to grow in, so I had d/c'd any topical. She also had an incomplete moult which I am chalking up to her being in general, too health impaired for her system to go full bore into making new feathers when it needed the energy elsewhere. Couldn't walk or fly, slowly started limping around, then one day out of the blue, months afterwards, started flying. There was never any direct injury to the wings and she could use them quite well when held in the air and given the opportunity to excersize them, just couldn't do it w/enuf strength on her own to hold her weight in the air and maintain.
> 
> fp


Very good info, thanks a lot fp  
Pidgey, I have to go now but I told my husband about it and he'll be more than happy to send them to you if you need them. Best of luck


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

I just want to let you all know that Nico is getting ready to go to her new home in Orlando along with her other two friends. They'll have a better life over there. They'll live in a 30 x 40 planted flight with a pond; I know they'll enjoy it to the fullest. Yes, I'll miss her but it's for her best. I needed to decide to either get into breeding them and get a few more or to let them go. It's not easy and I know I'll make a fool out of myself crying when the moment to say good-bye will come but I'll have to comfort myself picturing them enjoying that large, beautiful place. Thanks again to all of you. God Bless.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Has Nico grown any feathers yet??? Any chance of a picture before he leaves?

Does the person in Orlando know about Pigeon Talk? Could they update us?

I'm sure you will miss them but their new home sounds really nice!  

Best of everything!


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## SweetSpirit (Nov 22, 2005)

There's not much change since last time, maybe some more dark pigment. I haven't close looked since I have a pair of ringnecks in there fostering two Bleeding Heart chicks. I try to avoid disturbing as much as possible until the chicks are large enough so they couldn't accidentally get stepped on. 

The person in Orlando has a handicap and is a home stay, I never met him but we've been bird talking over the phone and helped each other out for the past two years. I'm looking forward to finally meet him and visit his aviaries. He doesn't have Internet access but he plans to get a computer sometimes in June, I was told.

Yes, the new home sounds very good. 10 of my ringnecks will also go live with him  I have to many; I didn't want to sell them because I didn't want them to end up living in cages. I offered them to him and he said he could place them in a large flight also with the Victoria Crowned pigeons. Now that makes my happy


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