# I'm back After a Little Time off



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I kinda got turned off to the pigeon stuff because I had some issues with shipping birds (local post office problems) and the time I'd have to take off work to even think about it. 

With a change in work and new contacts in the sport, my interest in the sport is coming back. I still have my birds and even added a couple new ones. I never lost interest in that part of the game. It was just too hard shipping birds so I gave up on trying to race. 

The last couple years I didn't band most of the babies that I hatched and left those in the loft to free breed, choosing their own mates. There's one section where I keep a close eye on because those birds are what I consider my "good" birds. Recently, I was surprised to see the sibling below come out of the nest. I have never had a featherfeet bird hatch in all my years of breeding these. They have one common great grandmother that was a Oak Haven Van Loon. I believe the Van Loons had the featherfeet trait. 

The other blood in these two siblings are (fathers side) old Van Loon/Janssen from CBS crossed to the Oak Haven Van Loon. Mothers side: Van Osch Janssen, Marcel Sangers/Camphius, Sam Haslem (Ganus), and Oak Haven Van Loon. 

As you can see, these are as crossed as can be. Something must have clicked for this trait to show. Needless to say, these two siblings, along with some changes and renewed energy, all happening at once has given me a spark to get this racing thing going.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I've got a feather footed cock that I raised and raced. It's the only one I've ever had. Ive since stocked him and he had just one feather footed baby this year and I sent it to a OLR....I guess we'll see how that works out.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Update pic taken 6/16. First pic is the male of the featherfeet siblings. Grandmother in the background. 

Second pic is the mother (left) and grandmother. Mother is 2015 and not banded. Grandmother is banded and is from a Sam Haslem cock bred to a Sangers/Camphius hen. 

Third pic is a same age cousin/uncle to the featherfeet siblings. Same look without the boot (boots in the background). 

Just a note on the coloring, sex, and the surprising boots that eventually showed up in the line; the Haslem cock was a dark check that produced two checks the first round I bred. The second round had two blue bars like the mother. The third round had another two checks. Two checks...two blues...then, two checks again. All 6 hatched from this pairing were female. All, except one blue, were small like the mother. The father was a larger bird. 

Breeding from the check side, this color pattern seem to follow the line, as the rounds alternate from checks to blues to checks, etc. All nestmates come out the same color, but the color alternates from round to round, regardless of the sex of the siblings. I'm on the 5th generation now and they breed true to that. 

The blue bars in the line have only produced blues, as I breed them back to blues only. Just a weird observation on these guys.

Something else I've abserved, all blue bars from these matings physically look good, in my opinion. Some of the checks look awful, as evident in the pic of the mother and grandmother. Only happens in the checks and that is one of the reasons why I let these free love in one section. Some look like street pigeons...


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Lovely birds!


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Xueoo said:


> Update pic taken 6/16. First pic is the male of the featherfeet siblings. Grandmother in the background.
> 
> Second pic is the mother (left) and grandmother. Mother is 2015 and not banded. Grandmother is banded and is from a Sam Haslem cock bred to a Sangers/Camphius hen.
> 
> ...



You seem to know everything except how to use a scrapper. Amazing.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

rpalmer said:


> You seem to know everything except how to use a scrapper. Amazing.


Birds prefer that. This is a coop. I only clean a couple times a year in some sections. My birds don't get sick. In some parts of the world where there are limited modern medicine, bird dropping are given to infants to help with immunity. When babies hatch, how pretty are the nests after a few days? This happens everywhere in nature. Nests lined with crap. Very few are ever sick from it. Keep it dry and airy and there will be no problems. 

Keep a clean section and a dirty one in a loft. Release some birds and see where they go.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't think those check hens look like street pigeons but they do seem to have a different look to them. Hell, who knows! They may turn out to be great racers.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Xueoo said:


> Birds prefer that. This is a coop. I only clean a couple times a year in some sections. My birds don't get sick. In some parts of the world where there are limited modern medicine, bird dropping are given to infants to help with immunity. When babies hatch, how pretty are the nests after a few days? This happens everywhere in nature. Nests lined with crap. Very few are ever sick from it. Keep it dry and airy and there will be no problems.
> 
> Keep a clean section and a dirty one in a loft. Release some birds and see where they go.


I know these words will fall on def ears but ... Your loft/coop is nothing like where the wild birds live. The wild birds have sun, wind and rain to help blow away the dust and dander. The rain helps wash away the droppings. And the sun helps kill a lot of bacteria. NO WHERE will you find wild pigeons living on as many layers of their droppings as you have. There are no animals meant to live in their own waste. How you know that the general health of wild squabs is good is something you should share. Or is it a case of if they aren't dead they must be OK.?

Scrappers are cheap. And the birds deserve your time in keeping their coop clean.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> Scrappers are cheap. And the birds deserve your time in keeping their coop clean.


Sorry but this has been driving me nuts. Its scraper. Not scrapper. 

scrap·er
ˈskrāpər/Submit
noun
a tool or device used for scraping, especially for removing dirt, paint, ice, or other unwanted matter from a surface.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

All joking aside rpalmer, I completely follow what you are saying and agree.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree too. Clean is healthier for both you and the birds. What makes you think they like it that way? It isn't hard to keep birds clean. 

And BTW, that aviary isn't safe, as anything can get in through those holes. Hope they are locked up in a loft at night. Not scraping the loft, if it is enclosed, is really unhealthy for you and the birds, to breathe all that in.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

For many years I thought pigeon was pronounced pidgeon and that is the way I spelled and pronounced it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well it does kind of sound that way.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

nice looking birds for sure, why does every body care how you keep your loft. house keeping do you live in your loft? i know people who live in houses dirtier than that loft and why judge?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

V-John said:


> Sorry but this has been driving me nuts. Its scraper. Not scrapper.
> 
> scrap·er
> ˈskrāpər/Submit
> ...


That's crazy 
Hope you checked every dictionary , may be someone spells that way  
Many people spell pidgeon tho


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Nice birds BTW. 
Would really go by the advice about scraping and safety though.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Nothing has gotten sick in this loft (coop). It even has a dirt floor. Nothing has gotten killed in this loft. I've been raising in this coop for about 15. Pigeons in it for about 7 years. If bad things were happening, I would have changed it already. A loft that looks "clean" doesn't mean it's clean.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dirt floors aren't safe either. Things can dig under. I'm glad you haven't had a predator do that, but it could happen. And why take the chance? Many have, and when they have gone out in the morning, every bird in the loft had been killed. Why take the chance?
As far as keeping it clean, it is just better for both your health and theirs. Don't know what you mean by "A loft that looks "clean", doesn't mean it's clean.
Don't you prefer clean?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> Dirt floors aren't safe either. Things can dig under. I'm glad you haven't had a predator do that, but it could happen. And why take the chance? Many have, and when they have gone out in the morning, every bird in the loft had been killed. Why take the chance?
> As far as keeping it clean, it is just better for both your health and theirs. Don't know what you mean by "A loft that looks "clean", doesn't mean it's clean.
> Don't you prefer clean?


*THIS ^ ^ Dirt floors can be a health hazard as well as a means for raccoons and other critters to get inside, just a matter of time. *


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

V-John said:


> Sorry but this has been driving me nuts. Its scraper. Not scrapper.
> 
> scrap·er
> ˈskrāpər/Submit
> ...


 Spell checker liked it and I missed it. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

This thread is a good example of why most serious racing pigeon fanciers don't visit these forums anymore. Xueoo is in the Homing & Racing Pigeon section, talking about his racing pigeons, and out of the woodwork comes the peanut gallery to question his every move.

Years back when I had very little time with the birds I had deep litter, rarely cleaned, and the birds had open loft during all daylight hours. Sure I lost a few to hawks, but man did my birds get smart and healthy. They were the healthiest birds I had ever seen, and I couldn't lose them on training tosses if I tried. I clean my lofts daily right now, but man do I wish I could open loft them now. BUT ITS NOT SAFE.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

West said:


> This thread is a good example of why most serious racing pigeon fanciers don't visit these forums anymore.


Show me one video of a successful racer who has layer upon layer of pigeon droppings. THAT is why they make no more than two posts. Pearls before swine.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Come on..............if you keep any animal, you are responsible for keeping it the best you can, to keep it healthy and happy. Filth is never healthy. Anyone who says it is, that's just an excuse for being lazy. If you don't care more about the animals you keep, then maybe you should get another hobby. But you can't make people care about their animals, when they don't. So yes, it's probably a waste of time telling them about it anyway.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

rpalmer said:


> Show me one video of a successful racer who has layer upon layer of pigeon droppings. THAT is why they make no more than two posts. Pearls before swine.


Look up Art Hees' flying record and you'll have your answer. A legendary flier in southern California, and then in the GHC before he passed. Deep litter is what he was known for.

https://youtu.be/ddswcGVhP0c


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Deep litter is actually different then piled up droppings.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

West said:


> Look up Art Hees' flying record and you'll have your answer. A legendary flier in southern California, and then in the GHC before he passed. Deep litter is what he was known for.
> 
> https://youtu.be/ddswcGVhP0c


Not even a pigeon in this video. I did see him advocate medications as a preventive rather than for treatment. If you want to follow that you are not helping the sport or your birds.

Again show 1 video from a successful racing loft with layer upon layer of droppings the birds are forced to live in. An actual loft. Not someone sitting and talking. 

I actually know you can't. But I'm hoping that if you look long enough it will occur to you that clean must actually be the way to go. Enjoy your birds.


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## Mader631 (Sep 7, 2008)

Those feather feet racers look nice though.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

*To scrape or not to scrape*

Welcome back Xueoo. I love your booted birds. My all time favorite racing video is this one from Chris Sutton, I would call this deep litter: 

https://youtu.be/aIJ_2OpDFvw

I am sure he cleans it up once in awhile. It also looks like he scrapes the perches. In the video it appears to be some leftover grain in the feeder before he takes them on the training toss. He just dumps it out into the straw and crap. The birds in the video just kind of pick through it. I really don't know how successful he is but there are a bunch of trophies. 

How do you determine a successful loft? I can take a video of a loft that does not scrape but once or twice a year and is successful. We have a guy in the club I race with that does just that. He does not win every race but does end up taking the club and combine once in awhile. I believe this year he won the 500 club and combine or maybe last year. There are successful lofts that don't scrape daily.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> ....... Don't know what you mean by "A loft that looks "clean", doesn't mean it's clean.
> Don't you prefer clean?


I think he might of meant that when you scrape the loft it is not much cleaner then when you started. Pigeon crap is on the floor of the loft. When you take a scraper to it some of it is obviously smeared. It is a porous material. If you could test for it after you scrape your loft there is still going to be fecal matter everywhere.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

*Pictures of wild pigeons nesting*




























Their nest is a mix of sticks straw and crap. They will reuse the same spot over and over again.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I have had birds on a scraped, unscraped and wired floors. The birds never told me which they prefer. I don't really know what is better. 

If you do scrape your loft please wear a respirator. Stirring up the dust in your loft daily might not be the best idea without a respirator. Especially if you have a large number of birds. If it is just a few then maybe not as big a concern.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Flapdoodle said:


> I think he might of meant that when you scrape the loft it is not much cleaner then when you started. Pigeon crap is on the floor of the loft. When you take a scraper to it some of it is obviously smeared. It is a porous material. If you could test for it after you scrape your loft there is still going to be fecal matter everywhere.


By letting the droppings pile up, you are opening your birds up more to getting worms, cocci and other things. By removing them, you are cutting down the chances of those things spreading.
Cleaner is healthier than filthy.

And as far as the pictures you posted of ferals nesting, do you know how long they generally live? And wouldn't you think we could do better than a flock of ferals who don't have a lot of places to move to once their area is that dirty. Wouldn't you think we could do better than that? There are homeless people who have to live in less favorable conditions than they would if given the choice also. But do you live in those conditions?


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I agree with the scraping. What I don't agree with is the BS posted attacking another fanciers management practices or loft. There are many lofts where droppings are not removed that are very successful. 

The pictures just show that yes birds in the wild do nest and live in their own crap. Would it be healthier if they did not... yes. However many different birds including pigeons will use the same nest over and over again. 

Most folks on here tend to humanize them. We think we know how they feel or what is comfortable to them which in reality is not the case. The birds from the pictures I can't imagine sitting there thinking this nest is not clean or is made of crap, I wish we could move or had other nesting options. I think it is outside their power of reasoning. 

Would it be healthier if they had a nice clean nest each round of babies... Yes, do they care about cleanliness, I doubt it. 

Again I agree with what has been said as far as pigeon management, and cleaning the loft. A little respect to the OP would go a long way to improving this site instead of tearing down loft or management practices.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

Young hatchlings exposed to some droppings helps build their immunities. How much is too much, I have no idea. I do not clean the nest until they are standing and feathers out and have never had issue stemming from it. 

But back to the grouse leg birds, I have seen this trait in homing pigeons occasionally. It must be genetic.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Flapdoodle said:


> I agree with the scraping. What I don't agree with is the BS posted attacking another fanciers management practices or loft. There are many lofts where droppings are not removed that are very successful.


Should we tell the State Veterinarians and the AU regarding minimal acceptable practices that you know some guy and so they must be wrong? Is it BS to point out trouble when so many people come here to learn? Everybody knows "some guy" but his loft is NOT AU certified. Why? With the breakout of Avian Flu why strictly adhere to acceptable bio practice?

Of course these are all stupid self answering questions. But people come here to learn about pigeons. And they and their birds deserve better than what some guy does, when what is acceptable is established and being offered as the better answer.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

AU Loft Certification lists a few methods for caring for birds, wire floors, *deep litter *and scraping. 

Bio hazard guidelines list nothing about cleaning the floor of the loft. They do recommend scraping the perches.

Under the vet recommendations they do recommend scraping the loft daily. 

If the concern is biosecurity and avian flu why did it take 34 posts for anyone to mention it... BS. 

There are many different ways to keep and care for pigeons. Deep Litter is used by many fanciers that is why it is listed in the certification guidelines. 

AU Links on the topic:

http://pigeon.org/biosecurity.htm

http://pigeon.org/veterinarytips.htm

http://www.pigeon.org/loftregistration.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

All this because it was mentioned that people should keep their lofts clean? Clean is healthier for both the birds and the keeper. Yes there are many different ways to keep and care for pigeons, but that doesn't mean that it should be acceptable, and that others shouldn't point it out to someone who doesn't keep his loft clean. Deep litter doesn't mean deep droppings on every perch and shelf. No getting around the fact that cleaner is healthier.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I am not trying to get around the fact and like I mentioned a couple times before I agree with you. If all other factors were equal a cleaner loft is healthier. 



Flapdoodle said:


> I agree with the scraping. What I don't agree with is the BS posted attacking another fanciers management practices or loft. There are many lofts where droppings are not removed that are very successful.
> 
> Again I agree with what has been said as far as pigeon management, and cleaning the loft. A little respect to the OP would go a long way to improving this site instead of tearing down loft or management practices.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

So maybe what you are objecting to is the way it is mentioned by other posters? You feel the OP was being attacked. Is it in the way it is said? Or is it that you feel that nothing should be said at all? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> So maybe what you are objecting to is the way it is mentioned by other posters? You feel the OP was being attacked. Is it in the way it is said? Or is it that you feel that nothing should be said at all? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.


I guess I am just frustrated with the fact that we all have different ways of caring for our birds. We do what we feel is acceptable or what works. If someone does not meet what we consider acceptable there seems to be a need to call them out on it. People can and do post or say whatever they want. I am not saying you shouldn't call them out. It could be done in a more positive manner. In the case here it was pointed out rather rudely. The guy tried to defend himself. Several people felt the need to jump on the bad wagon. The back and forth arguments ensued. Most of what was used to persuade the OP to clean his loft was BS. 

In the forum there are several lookers but not much posting going on. One of the cool things is to see pictures and hear what other fanciers are doing and how they care for their birds, hear different ideas and opinions. If the "peanut gallery" picks every picture or idea apart less will get posted. 

The facts as I see them in this case are pigeons (mostly young birds) pick at everything. If allowed to pick through their own crap they can and will ingest it. That is how they can pick up (if present) worms or cocci. I can see the point in not allowing them to come in contact with their own or loft mates droppings.

So the best thing to do in this regard would be wire floors with a conveyor belt. Removing the droppings from the loft on an ongoing basis. That would be the gold standard. Is anything short of that neglecting your birds? With this option you have near zero chance of spreading cocci or worms. 

If you cared about your birds but not as much you could lower your standard a little and just use wire floor with regular scraping or removable pull out shelf to clean the droppings. 

If you cared less you could lower your standard a little more and just go with wood floor and scrape three times a day. 

Lower still just twice a day, once a day, once every few days, once a week, never scrape. I guess if you care nothing about your birds you could just go with dirt floors and never clean your loft. 

In any of the above scenarios you could find successful fanciers. People that love and care for their birds. Birds that live long productive lives. We could learn something from each of those fliers. If something works for someone so be it. There is no need in arguing about it. Point it out if you feel you must but there is no need to argue especially with BS statements that really are not factual. I would rather see a more open exchange of ideas on caring for pigeons.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for your answer. So I think you are saying that if someone does have something to say about how the other person keeps his birds or whatever, that it could be offered in a tone of sharing another way, or helping, rather than a tone of criticism or fault finding. 
You, as we all do, enjoy the sharing and the pictures. You feel that fewer people will share if they are afraid of being criticized. Okay, I do understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. We are probably all really good about some things, and lacking in others. Sometimes if you can explain to someone why something is important, and they hadn't thought about that, then maybe it will make a difference to them. But if sounding fault finding, then no one listens.And it just goes back and forth, but nothing will actually change. Sometimes when we see things we don't agree with, I guess we judge, rather than trying to help, which is on a more friendly note. I guess I hadn't really thought about that. But I see what you are saying. Thanks for answering my question. I appreciate it.


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