# what color pattern is this?



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

and how do you get it? can you get the nonwhite specks in differing colores?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I would call it a Blue Grizzle, but it's not a homer, so there may be another name for it. 
Yes, you can get grizzle in Blue and Red.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Grizzle*

This appears to be a black but could be T Pattern Blue. The mottling comes from Grizzle and can be absolutely any color.

Spread factor (what makes a blue pigeon black) makes the pattern more of a Mottle than the typical Grizzle Pattern and makes for larger blotches of color. The same is true with Recessive Red and Recessive Yellow which all suppress the Grizzle gene to a Mottled appearance.

Once you have the Grizzle gene, you can put it on any color that exists. It is a dominant mutation that is very easy to infuse into a flock of birds. If you're not careful, it can take over as it is dominant.

Bill


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jbangelfish said:


> This appears to be a black but could be T Pattern Blue. The mottling comes from Grizzle and can be absolutely any color.
> 
> Spread factor (what makes a blue pigeon black) makes the pattern more of a Mottle than the typical Grizzle Pattern and makes for larger blotches of color. The same is true with Recessive Red and Recessive Yellow which all suppress the Grizzle gene to a Mottled appearance.
> 
> ...


so you breed a self color with a grizzle pattern to get that color grizzle lyou want?


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## becege (Mar 12, 2003)

*What color pattern*

I don't think that is a grizzle. I think to get grizzles you mate a blue bar to a grizzle. The bar should show on the wing of the grizzle. This may be a "tiger" color but I'm not sure.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Tiger grizzle or mottles are all types of grizzle though, aren't they? Some tigers are 'made' but there are also the natural ones they call tiger grizzles as well. Depending on whether its ****. or het. for grizzle, it may or may not have enough white to cover up the pattern. Other things could help mask the bars too I think, like if this one is a black grizzle, then the spread gene would be covering up the blue bars.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if this is a mottle or Tiger grizzle how does one go about to breed for this pattern or is it happen stance so to speak.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Yes, actually anything to Grizzle makes Grizzle*



spirit wings said:


> so you breed a self color with a grizzle pattern to get that color grizzle lyou want?


Using a self color will keep more color on the Grizzled bird than if you used a Pied, which will tend to lighten them even further.

Grizzle is dominant so it doesn't matter what you breed it to, you'll still get Grizzles. There are Homozygous Grizzles which make the Stork Marked birds with colored wingtips and tails with mostly white bodies and shields. These are birds with two doses of the Grizzle gene. Many of them moult out to whites or near whites, especially in Ash Red Grizzle, where most white pigeons actually came from. There are others. Single dose Grizzles(Heterozygous) are the more familiar looking Grizzles that we all know as they are heavily splashed with color and white. Unlike Pied, Grizzle mixes the two in smaller more random patterns. Remember that Spread and Recessive Red change the appearance of Grizzles to Mottled. These two genes can also be in any color of pigeon.

Being a dominant gene makes this one of the simplest to deal with and to make in any color desired. You only need one Heterozygous bird to bring this gene to your entire flock. If you used a Homozygous one, you'd just get them twice as quickly as all young will be Grizzles.

The reason that you don't see a wing bar on the bird in the photo is that it is either Spread (black) or T Pattern which are known as Blue Black, Dark Check or Black Checks. You'd have to look at the tail to see if it has a bar. The tail bar would indicate that it is not spread. In either case, the genetic color of the bird is still Blue. The patterns (spread, T Pattern check, check, bar, barless) change how they appear and Grizzle just adds the white mottling.

If a bird that is carrying Recessive Red, a Blue Bar for example, would become Mottled rather than Grizzled because it has the gene for Recessive Red, I don't know but it's an interesting thought. Maybe Frank will show up and help with this. At any rate, I think you get the idea of Grizzle and how it works.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

The pic posted appears to be a black tiger grizzle. Tiger grizzle is a dominant allele of grizzle. Big difference between tiger and classical grizzle is the tiger will go to some solid white feathers, while grizzle will have an intermix on the feathers of white and color (like graying hair on humans). Yes, you can have both tiger grizzle and grizzle in various colors other than black.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*This one could be called "Tiger Grizzle"*



becege said:


> I don't think that is a grizzle. I think to get grizzles you mate a blue bar to a grizzle. The bar should show on the wing of the grizzle. This may be a "tiger" color but I'm not sure.


Being Tiger or not doesn't change the fact that it is still a bird with the Grizzle gene. Tiger Swallows have been made by feather plucking and so have some others but they are not genetic Grizzles. Alternate wing feathers have been plucked until they run out of color. It makes for beautiful and interesting birds but most of us either consider it somewhat cruel or too much trouble to make it worthwhile.

Genetic Tigers can be bred using the Grizzle gene, especially when combined with Spread or Recessive Red as these birds have a somewhat natural tendency to be half colored and half white. Many near perfect genetic Tigers do exist but it is the Grizzle gene that makes them what they are. Once certain patterns are set, no matter what genes got them there in the first place, they tend to breed true. This has happened with many forms such as Saddle, Baldhead, Gazzi, Tailmark, Bodymark, etc.

Bill


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

so grizzle to grizzle would most likely make a classic type grizzle...? could a pair of classic grizzles have young that is more of the tiger grizzle if they had that pattern in their background? or would it be better to breed a black bar or self color with a grizzle to get the tiger or mottled appearance ? that might have already been explained but my brain needs time for it to sink in...lol..


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Grizzle to Grizzle makes Stork marks*



spirit wings said:


> so grizzle to grizzle would most likely make a classic type grizzle...? could a pair of classic grizzles have young that is more of the tiger grizzle if they had that pattern in their background? or would it be better to breed a black bar or self color with a grizzle to get the tiger or mottled appearance ? tht might have already been explained but my brain needs time for it to sink in...lol..


Which are lighter birds with dark wing tips and tails. Two normal Grizzles together will make Stork Marks, Typical Grizzles and normal birds. It would be no faster this way than to mate a Grizzle to a Normal as half will be Typical Grizzles either way. This is what Tigers come from and would likely be easiest with Spread (Black) or Recessive Red.

Bill


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jbangelfish said:


> Which are lighter birds with dark wing tips and tails. Two normal Grizzles together will make Stork Marks, Typical Grizzles and normal birds. It would be no faster this way than to mate a Grizzle to a Normal as half will be Typical Grizzles either way. This is what Tigers come from and would likely be easiest with Spread (Black) or Recessive Red.
> 
> Bill


Thanks Bill...I understand now


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