# Looks like the Sure Bet fever has hit!



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

44 bids and it started out at $10. Wow!

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=76611


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> 44 bids and it started out at $10. Wow!
> 
> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=76611


On the description, he states it is a $50,000 pairing, so let's see if it gets close to PiPa style bidding.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Its getting there, over $5800 they have had 47 bids.
Dave


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't see why a player wouldn't buy this pair. No matter what people think about the Sure Bet birds...they do bring in the cash on race day.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Still a lot of money for a piece of PAPER with no GUARANTEE what so ever it will bring Champions to any loft?, I believe it may be an ego thing, the only true test is what the bird does on any current race day, So if these birds are really so Good I wish I could test them in my loft, I'm on the very long end of the race course here in central Florida, in fact I'm the farthest out, so if this Blood is so special it should show in my race results and if it did I would be eating CROW for a long time to come and make a believer out of me in looking at paper!
Wishing all, the best of luck in the sport, looking forward to old bird season starting this weekend!


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Xueoo said:


> I don't see why a player wouldn't buy this pair. No matter what people think about the Sure Bet birds...they do bring in the cash on race day.


So what is a player.? A gambler?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Crazy Pete said:


> Its getting there, over $5800 they have had 47 bids.
> Dave


 This may be a high price by American standards, on iPigeon. But, compared to auctions I have seen on PiPa, this is chump change. Heck, you can buy a pair off Mike Ganus, a few months out of the nest and spend twice that much.....


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

The hen's band is Nigai, this is the band used by Steve Mistler to band his birds. I wonder why Kenny Rhodes is getting rid of this hen? Maybe she hasn't produced???? I think people need to do more research before Jumping to throw their money away. I have been watching the "feather merchants" very closely for the last couple of years and am finding more alarming things that dont make sense to "common sense individuals". I'm not implying that there is something wrong with this auction but their is no mention that Mistler bred this hen. I feel this is an important detail that has been omitted.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

$ 5800 seems like a lot of $$$ to me, I don't waist my time fallowing the PIPA auctions, that is way to big of a wish list for those of us that have to live on a buget.
Dave


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think he has been racing lately, at least when I talked to him. Surebetcha!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They sure are pretty birds. I'll take the cockbird, but they sure didn't have much to say about that hen. You would think at 3 years old, she'd bred something worth mentioning by now. Probably a dud with a 'great' pedigree. Hopefully this isn't too much inbreeding for whoever gets the pair. Inbreeding works great sometimes, but other times, they end up the same as the champion racing horses did...


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

That is very cheap if I had the money I would buy them for that. Heck you could probably get $1000 ea for the babies. Even at $500 ea for babies I could make my money back in months. I have seen brothers and sisters to these birds sell for 10-20,000 ea.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Wow its up to over $6800, maybe they know some thing we don't.
Dave


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Oh wait a minute I thought these were childern! I got that from the statment that it says on the second paragraph,"VICTOR" Direct Son of "SURE BET" Then I looked at the ped and he is a grandchild!! Buyer be ware I guess. I woud not buy them!


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Oh wait again the hen is off sure bet it just don't say sure bet on the ped. But it does say 662 so she is a direct daughter. Now ganus sells grandchilden for $1000 ea so I guess I am back to my original thoughts I would buy but it would be better if the cock was a son and I don't believe he is.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Looks like none of us are dipping our feet into the pool. Too rich for my blood.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

What? The first pedigree is for the cockbird, which it says his dad is 662 (SureBet). Second ped is the hen, which she's a granddaughter.


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

In 2004 Carey Tilson (an active one loft participant) bought the bird from the Vegas Classic Auction (the first 50 were auctioned off after the race - this bird was 24th). 

In 2010, Kenny Rhodes (an active pigeon merchant) is selling this bird as part of his "donation auction" for a grandmother raising three grandchildren by herself.

Somewhere between 2004 and 2010, the bird changed hands from Carey to Kenny and somewhere in there bred some "winners" for Carey? for Kenny?

Because this bird was bred by Victor V, I expect it to sell for a large sum...


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Whats the price up to now? Last time was 5,000 and did I get that right?????c.hert


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

$7,210.00 , 61 bids


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Time to get the 62nd bid in Mary of Exeter and buy that birdie--if you do the 62 then I'll do the 63rd one.LOL Wow-----c.hert


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Surejacked is what his new Name should be because whom ever buys him just got jacked a lot money$$$$$


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I think if your a guy who flies all the big money one loft or futurity races or a guy looking to sell birds. The cock is def worth the money. He's already proven that he can raise winners for those type of races. And with the prices that these Sure Bet Birds are going for. I have the price list from a few years ago where you couldn't get a baby for less then 5,000. So whats and extra 2,500 to get one that has already proven it carries the good genes. I think the only way you could lose is if the bird drops dead on you b4 you get anything out of him. With my luck that's what would happen to me. LoL


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

As far as I am concerned, for this amount of money, the eggs should be solid gold. If not, the investment is a bust.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Warren's investment in the Ludo bird, in my opionion, is a much better investment!


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## idoveyou (Nov 30, 2009)

wouldnt you know I get my tax money the day after the auction ends..I hate it when that happens!


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

So if given, the deep pockets, who would take a jab at this bidding war? If the goal in mind was to win futrurities and one loft races? Seems Sure Bet's name is mentioned amongst the one loft and futrurites. But what about the South Africa 1 Million Dollar Race? Where are the Sure Bets on the race sheet? I heard they were 59th or so. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Idoveyou: Exactly how I feel--whats money--just late arriving the day after the auction., and sure hope that bird don't arrive late..c.hert


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> So what is a player.? A gambler?


A player would be one who sends birds to the money races.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Anybody who buys a Sure Bet bird, or any bird, for $5000+ is not looking to win the club races. These birds are meant to win money, period! As with the pedigree or piece of "paper", as some call it, the diploma is worth less than the pedigree these are printed on. 

Some may think it's easy to sell this Sure Bet line and people buy these birds to sell. But, I know two guys who can't get $250 for their inbred grandchildren (parents either full brother/sister from Sure Bet or 1/2 siblings). The direct offsprings were purchased for $5000-8000 each. They do tend to sell easier than other birds in the loft, but they still end up with a loft full of inbred Sure Bet grandchildren every year that they can't move. The money come from winnings and I've been told they've made back all the money spent. I haven't verified that, but, I'll take their wod for it.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> What? The first pedigree is for the cockbird, which it says his dad is 662 (SureBet). Second ped is the hen, which she's a granddaughter.




You are right I don't know why I was having a problem with it.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Xue00, sounds like you're talking about real estate, not birds. Just kidding.


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> So if given, the deep pockets, who would take a jab at this bidding war? If the goal in mind was to win futrurities and one loft races? Seems Sure Bet's name is mentioned amongst the one loft and futrurites. But what about the South Africa 1 Million Dollar Race? Where are the Sure Bets on the race sheet? I heard they were 59th or so. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)


47th by Rampage Racing on the Final Race...


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

irishsyndicate said:


> 47th by Rampage Racing on the Final Race...


If your right that it's a sure bet bird. It would mean it was the 4th bird out of all the american birds sent which is pretty good. And I noticed the bird that came in 21st in the race the second best american bird is from a guy who I have to fly against in all the race I fly here on Long Island. He actually doesn't fly the birds he has a crew from belgium that he has working for him so he's got it all the best handlers and some of the best birds money buy plus he flys out of 2 lofts one up on the roof of his buisness and 2 stroy one on the ground in the lot next door it's really hard to beat him but when you do it's a real accomplishment.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

My guess is it'll top 12K before the weekend's over.


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

So what was the end result of the surebets ? Anyone know?


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## Gnuretiree (May 29, 2009)

The bird sold for $8710.00

Auction is Closed 
Auction Type Standard 
Current Bid $8,710.00 Starting Bid $10.00 
Quantity 1 # of Bids 72 (Bid History) 
Location , 

Item Owner 1346 (View Seller's Other Auctions) 
Accepted Payment Methods Visa, Mastercard, American Express, Discover 
Shipping Costs From the same Seller: 1 bird = $50; each additional bird = $5 
Shipping Limits Will Ship Anywhere; Out of USA will incur extra charges 
Ship Via USPS 
Times this auction viewed 2363 

Auction Home | Adv. Search | Register | Membership | Mailing List | Help 




Transmitted: 2/8/2010 1:54:00 PM


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I would take the 8k go buy me a nice car and drive over to the guy who's bird beat a Sure Bet Bird in a race and offer him $50 for it. Then I would buy a $250 spread in RPD and advertise the heck out of the bird. I would take a picture of it sitting on a pile of gold. Then sell youngsters for $1000 a piece. 

I do not get it. I have an imported daughter of a Bourges winner against 13,000 birds I paid $50 for. I do not get the logic. I think the fever is a disease. We need to keep in mind that Sure Bet was two weeks late getting home from the race he was in. Any one with half a mind would have given him to the kid down the road. The fact that Vic V has made so much money off this bird and able to put a dozen of his offspring in the big races is nuts. It keeps feeding itself. If one of these birds is lucky enough to get in the top 10 of a race it will sell for thousands. 

People are idiots.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

A good note is that Protege loft donated the birds to help a family in need. It is nice to see that it is not just Sure Bet greed that drives some of the sales of these birds. There is definitely some generous people in the sport. 

Randy


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

"We need to keep in mind that Sure Bet was two weeks late getting home from the race he was in."

Interesting sentence. Could you expand on it a bit please. A PM is okay if you don't want to put it here. I did a google search and did not come up with anything on this topic.

This is the first time that I have heard this. But to be honest about it. Coming home late from a race does not disqualify a bird necessarily. Stuff happens. Would be an interesting read though. My computer "background" pic is Sure Bet. But I do not have anything from him.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I would take the 8k go buy me a nice car and drive over to the guy who's bird beat a Sure Bet Bird in a race and offer him $50 for it. Then I would buy a $250 spread in RPD and advertise the heck out of the bird. I would take a picture of it sitting on a pile of gold. Then sell youngsters for $1000 a piece.
> 
> I do not get it. I have an imported daughter of a Bourges winner against 13,000 birds I paid $50 for. I do not get the logic. I think the fever is a disease. We need to keep in mind that Sure Bet was two weeks late getting home from the race he was in. Any one with half a mind would have given him to the kid down the road. The fact that Vic V has made so much money off this bird and able to put a dozen of his offspring in the big races is nuts. It keeps feeding itself. If one of these birds is lucky enough to get in the top 10 of a race it will sell for thousands.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you need to talk sh_it about other people.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> "We need to keep in mind that Sure Bet was two weeks late getting home from the race he was in."
> 
> Interesting sentence. Could you expand on it a bit please. A PM is okay if you don't want to put it here. I did a google search and did not come up with anything on this topic.
> 
> This is the first time that I have heard this. But to be honest about it. Coming home late from a race does not disqualify a bird necessarily. Stuff happens. Would be an interesting read though. My computer "background" pic is Sure Bet. But I do not have anything from him.


He came back injured. You can also say he had determination.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I spoke to Victor about Sure Bet and why Victor made the "gamble" and purchased Sure Bet from Mike Ganus for $500. In hindsight (ALWAYS 20/20!!!), it was a good "bet" (pun intended) for Victor as he has "cashed" in on his "bet". Victor said it was the bird's determination that won his heart. 

The reason why Sure Bet has been, is, and will continue to be a frenzy [for some time] is that his descendants have been doing well in money races; hence the name "Sure Bet", because it's basically a gurantee once you enter a bird from the Sure Bet family into the race. 

We all have our likes/dislikes in this sport. Let's not forget that one man's madness is another man's insight to a winning lottery ticket. I'm sure most of us would spend some money if we felt confident about a bird(s).


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

hillfamilyloft said:


> We need to keep in mind that Sure Bet was two weeks late getting home from the race he was in.
> Randy


Who would you rather have as a breeder a bird that won 5 races but never produced a winner or a bird that came home 2 weeks late like he did and breed more winners then most ppl breed their entire life in just a few years. With most ppl Sure Bet would have been a cull after coming home 2 weeks late he gave it a chance and the rest is history.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Who would you rather have as a breeder a bird that won 5 races but never produced a winner or a bird that came home 2 weeks late like he did and breed more winners then most ppl breed their entire life in just a few years. With most ppl Sure Bet would have been a cull after coming home 2 weeks late he gave it a chance and the rest is history.


I had a hen that came home from a 500 mile race. But she was in good condition. I figured she went out with a boyfriend for the past month. She confirmed my suspicsion when she brought the boyfriend home and I chased him away. She took off and never returned.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> Just curious...Whats this $50 daughter of a '99 Bourges winner bred for you?


She is an older hen. I took a chance on her because of her pedigree and price. She gave me one bird that I stocked this year and did not fly. I am breeding from him. So it may take a season before I can tell you. 

I knew I would get a rise out of some of the Sure Bet people. Just my opinion. My thoughts are for 8k that I could buy some very good birds off of Pipa that have flown against sound competition. In my opinion a smarter move. ie. Warrens money spent on direct Ludo's with race records. I think it was about the same. 

I have Ganus stock in my loft. The birds are good, but to be honest I would not spend 8k for them or their offspring. To put it in perspective I race mainly Vic Miller Birds. Vic has an established family that have won him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Vic's birds bring a fair price. Birds from an established winning family. 

Vic V gambled on Sure Bet and it payed off for him. I was not talking s...t about anyone, just making a comment about people in general and what they will do when the feeding frenzy hits. I guess I should not have refereed to people I disagree with as Idiots, but I do believe that the money they spend on Sure Bet birds is not in line with common sense. 

A local guy from Bloomfield NM spent a couple of thousand dollars on a horse that won him the Kentucky Derby. Where people spent millions on horses the did not. It is all a gamble. In my book Sure Bet might have been worth $500 but I question whether his offspring are worth 8k.

I am happy for Vic V and Ganus and all the money they have made off of the Sure Bet frenzy. I would really like to see how those 8k offspring have payed off for those who bought them. 

Sorry if I have offended anyone. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Did a little searching on just who won that 2002 Vegas Classic. Found some interesting information and some familiar names in the pigeon sport. This might be a good place for someone to drop some cash on a few good birds.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I wonder if Dave would take 8k for that 2002 winner? Chances are he would think about it. 

Randy


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Best way to build a family, start off small!


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2010)

I say if people want to and can throw away their money then to each their own Im not going to stop them  lol


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

We'll see if the winner of the auction posts big results next year!


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Anybody here win $10,000-20,000 with $50 birds? The guys I know who purchased direct sure bet birds have brought in over $20,000 each, according to them, but I believe them. 

I have none myself so I can't say either way. Personally, I think you can win with $300(+/-) birds, which is about the average price of a "winning" loft from my dealings. But, even these "winning" lines contain "surebets", "aristona's", "hekkenklak's", "kannibaal's", etc...which somebody paid a lot of money to get, so everybody can have $50 "down from" birds.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2010)

I think you dont really hear about the $50 birds winning big money as much because they dont carry a big name in their pedigree to refer to when they are the winners of races.. For instance Terry Brooks has placed very well in the mercedes classic over the last few years but you dont hear anything about what lineage birds he was flying just that he won.. the only birds you hear about are the ones that cost people a fortune and where they stem from before they came to america because of that fact but thats just my opinion. Big time flyers dont want to hear about small named winning birds it seems .


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

One has to keep in mind the vested interest there is in touting the pedigrees of birds that they have, and that they have won with. Because they have them or their youngsters for sale.

One of the biggest red flags to me, in an advertisement of young birds for sale, is when it states a certain bird is "from so and so" and was bred for stock.

Now I do understand "bred for stock" is a way of indicating that the bloodline was considered too valuable to take a chance on losing the bird to a hawk or whatever. But that term means to me that the bird was not raced and probably never trained.

I stear clear of birds "bred for stock" or birds out of birdes "bred for stock". They usually have big names, but you don't know if they can even find their way home from a hundred miles. You just have to "assume" they can because of their pedigree.

Another thing I am leary of, are old birds advertised for sale, that do not have any flying record from the previous year listed in the advertisment.

To be honest, I recently purchased two Sky Lake Sions on ipigeon, that were 2009 birds that one would assume had flown young bird races. But there was no mention of how they did in those young bird races, which gave me pause for concern. But in the end. Being the flawed human that I am, I decided to get them anyway. I went based on the overall flying record of the owner. They are on eggs now and time will tell, but I would say that it probably is not a good way to buy birds.

Buying birds should really be about buying birds with good flying records. Not looks. Not pedigrees. Not eyesign. Nor wing or feather features (ie: 11 flights for instance).

I just wish that I would listen to myself sometimes. 

But since I am always saying that there ain't that much difference in "good" racing homers. That it is mostly about the handlers. Then I guess maybe I listen to myself too much. 

Oh heck. Seems obvious to me, having read what I just wrote. That I really don't have a clue what I am talking about. Do I?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

This is just so hard for me to believe that these birds are getting so much money--Boy I have a Pedigree Racer (three years old) Janssen I guess--but its from Belguim and bought in a pigeon auction with a very well known loft and never raced but had a 1/2 breed baby with a wild one and is happy in my loft but for 5 thousand dollars--any takers---its pretty as well but is a cock---suppose to get the female but someone I believe switched the bird right before I took it home with is brother and thats who I have the male--Oh what a flyer---loves to fly and loves to breed---any buyers out there ...c.hert----Blue Bar Smooth as Well....lol


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

One of the biggest red flags to me, in an advertisement of young birds for sale, is when it states a certain bird is "from so and so" and was bred for stock.

I totally agree with you, bred for stock should be a big red flag. Even if it is one gereration, that one gereration turns to two when that stock bird is bred. Of course the babies can be tested but they are two generations away from the desired bird, and that is only if the stock bird was a direct child. No matter how great a bird is it will only have one best child, and it's one best will only have one best. There are rare birds, like I imagine Sure Bet is, that breed great birds over and over, but there is still only one best. That was the advice I was given years ago by Bob Rowland, and have felt it good to keep in mind no matter the temtation of a pedigree.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Many a loft in europe goes unkown. Why because they fly and breed they do not try to fly and sale. Then the big buyers that vewnture each year To buy these pedigreed birds Find a persan that sales the paper. Then bring the bird over research lineage futher to increase The pedigre from a 3 generation pedigree To a five or more generation one. Many over seas do not keep much of any pedigree. And if so just a short breeding record 2 /3 generations. Because flying and racing the birds is what results are. NOW far as what the cost of a bird maybe any where. Is what will some one pay. NO body sell the best they have. And when what may have been the best a few years back they bred the birds they needed from the bird THEN SOLD IT. A good 3 year old bred from for another 3 years Then sold well it may have produced the best it ever was going to. Finding the GOOD HENS for breeder use THen the GOOD cocks to use That is a key Cock can be GOOD super Great what ever term you like BUT HENS must be looked at to. Because her genes make up half the pairing. Myself a pigeon should not go for more then a thousand dollars IF GOOD great/ ect. BUT people with money or invester type breeders PAY more BUT SELL Sale many young off them to get not only there money back but make money or pay for there hobby. IF The U S A can not breed birds to work with now Because hung up on pedigrees Then THE U S A is doing something wrong. BESIDES race birds some of the best pigeons in the world are raised right here in the U S A . And Unkown race birds from those over seas great birds Are here breeding and flying JUST not on well known races or race sheets. Perhaps AND over seas Those unkown flyers WIN there share of the big races They just do not have web pages and offer up the birds. AND those same people SALE there birds for much less. BUT with out a pedigree.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

We Americans will buy almost anything if there's a good shiny piece of paper behind it.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2010)

pigeon people are all kinds of crazy lol


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

"No matter how great a bird is, it will only have one best child, and it's one best will only have one best."

Very astute observation.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

It'll be just some time before the Sure Bet fever hits again!


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Very astute observation.
I know it sounds like a no brainer, but it is something people tend to forget. I know this because I tend to forget it from time to time myself. If a full brother or sister did something great, then the bird I am thinking about should be up to that standard. On the other hand, If no siblings have proven their worth then, the bird in question must be the same. A good example, I have two sisters, both have married well and done much with their lives, then there is me that breeds racing pigeons. Just because they did well ... well you know. LOL I think there are a great number of pigeon buyers that buy paper.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> Warren's investment in the Ludo bird, in my opionion, is a much better investment!


 Hey I just saw this.....and I think you are correct.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> It'll be just some time before the Sure Bet fever hits again!


Its like the swine flu


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Did a little searching on just who won that 2002 Vegas Classic. Found some interesting information and some familiar names in the pigeon sport. This might be a good place for someone to drop some cash on a few good birds.


Dave does have good birds, he is not afraid to invest some money in order to acquire good stock for his breeding colony. I have sold him some Ludo's in the past, so I know the good things they say about him in this article is true.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Dave does have good birds, he is not afraid to invest some money in order to acquire good stock for his breeding colony. I have sold him some Ludo's in the past, so I know the good things they say about him in this article is true.


Previous post was in reference to Mr. Dave Dudley. 

Since that article was written, he has had more success in the South African race. He was 47th and 163rd in the South Africa race last year. And he was with a group that was 37th in 2005 which is really hard to do. 

Some of these guys are sending 20-50 birds so when you send 6, 4 make
the race and 2 are in the money you have to be doing something right in your breeding colony.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

"Some of these guys are sending 20-50 birds"

Yea. Some use the shotgun method. Splatter as much buckshot as you can and hope one hits the target.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

That is actually the smarter way to go if you want to win, specifically. At the end, it's all about what you bring home....


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

There are many out there who try and buy a race. They have big money and throw a bunch of birds at the race. The guys who send 3 or 4 birds at the race and do well should welcome the big guys and their money. 

If I were looking for stock I think I would go to the guy who enters 6 and has 4 in the money. 

Buying a win sells birds. Look at the percentage of birds entered that finish. If Ganus sends 16 birds to a race and only scores with one, the odds are not that good. If Dave sends 6 and scores with 2 the odds are much better to get a good bird off of his stock. 

My mentor sends three birds to the Snake River Challenge each year and has scored with at least one the last five years. Not a huge race, but consistent results. I had 23 birds start the race season last year in ABQ. I had 17 top 10% finishes and six top 10 finishes including second high points bird. About half the birds scored. My goal is percentages. 

There are a bunch of guys in here that have good winning percentages. 1/16 in my book is not a good percentage. Warren sends three birds to the Flamingo and gets equal 1st. Thats a good percentage. 

Sure bet youngsters might be a good bet for percentages. There is just a point when spending $500 for one of Warren's Ludo's off a National winner seems like a better investment than spending 5K on a Sure Bet youngster.

In my opinion Ludo is in a different league than a feather merchant. For the money spent on a Sure Bet bird, I could get a Sangers, Koopman, Verkerk, etc bird off their best. Or a proven racer against thousands of birds.

Randy


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Percentages...I'll put my money on the guy who puts in 15 birds vs the guy who sends 5. It's not about who has better birds. It's about who took home the money. Remove the breeder from the equation and play the numbers. Take for example, hillfamily loft, sending 15 birds to the Flamingo as team A, and, sending another 5 birds as team B. I would bet team A has a lot more birds score than team B. 

Granted, there are guys who send 15 birds and none score, or score low and don't make back the entry money. But, if we are talking about breeders who have a winning track record, as most breeders do who we are talking about, I would think they can be smarter with how they "play" this money game.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

What is equal 1st in the Flamingo, I sent three birds this year and wasn't aware of an equal 1st? What year were you refering to? I know what equal 1st means, but the Flamingo this year was decided by seconds with no equals that I know of. If there was equal anything in the Flamingo I have money coming!!! I am breeding this years Flamingo birds right now, maybe I can work out a deal on the entry fee in exchange.  Jim if you are reading this... Jim


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They may be equal first as far as them being in the first drop, but the prize money or actual published results do not include e1's


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Xueoo said:


> Percentages...I'll put my money on the guy who puts in 15 birds vs the guy who sends 5. It's not about who has better birds. It's about who took home the money. Remove the breeder from the equation and play the numbers. Take for example, hillfamily loft, sending 15 birds to the Flamingo as team A, and, sending another 5 birds as team B. I would bet team A has a lot more birds score than team B.
> 
> Granted, there are guys who send 15 birds and none score, or score low and don't make back the entry money. But, if we are talking about breeders who have a winning track record, as most breeders do who we are talking about, I would think they can be smarter with how they "play" this money game.


So who's the smarter guy here? Guy A takes $1000 and buys 1000 Powerball tickets. Guy B takes $50 and buys 50 Powerball tickets. What if guy A wins $500 and guy B wins $200. Who ends up with the better deal?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> The majority of your discussions include examples based on your mentor, dave dudley, or warren smith.
> 
> Do you know the last one loft race Dave entered? How many birds did he send? How many won him money?
> 
> ...


I will let Warren defend himself here on why you think his birds are inferior. My point was that proven families will most likely bear you better fruit than a flash in a pan. 

I could throw others in here like Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, David Clausing, Piet Valk, Jos Thone, Eric Berkmoes, Flor Engels etc. Descendants of these are what I am flying. I have yet to invest in a Sure Bet bird. I am not saying I never will, but would like to see a few more years of results. I would also like to spend a fair price for them also. At present, my humble colony of birds with a few good families backing them will do for me. Also the combined investment that I have made with lofts, birds, all the feed, all the race entry fees, club dues, feeders and so on, does not amount to what that Sure Bet pair sold for. 

So my simple conclusion is that my investment has been a better deal for me. I would also not turn down a good pair from Dave, Warren, or another good pair from my mentor. I would also have to debate whether I would take a bird off of Warrens Flamingo breeders or a bird off of Sure Bet. In my opinion, if I wanted to make money I would choose the Sure Bet Bird, If I wanted to win races I would go with Warren's.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think that I am misunderstood here a bit about how I am valuing the Sure Bet Birds. I am not discounting them as a decent race bird. What my point is, is a simple question. 

Why are they more valuable than a national winner, a Flamingo winner, or a young bird off a World Champion? 

I wonder why my Grandson of Ikon and Magic Star who has bred me winners is less valuable than a Sure Bet Grandson without a proven record? Why my daughter of the 2001 Snow Bird classic winner that has bred me a 300 mile winner and a 250 bond race winner is less valuable than than a Sure Bet daughter? Why my daughter of a National Borgues winner is less valuable than the same Sure Bet Hen? 

The only answer I can come up with is how you Market the birds. Good birds are good birds. Why spend a fortune for paper and advertising?

What I do not understand is the reasoning. Better yet those that buy a Sure Bet bird and then defend the reasoning. 

Randy


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

As far I can tell, Victor [the bird] in many people's eyes seems to be more valuable than GFL 430, which was settled for $17,000. Why is that?


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Kal-El said:


> So who's the smarter guy here? Guy A takes $1000 and buys 1000 Powerball tickets. Guy B takes $50 and buys 50 Powerball tickets. What if guy A wins $500 and guy B wins $200. Who ends up with the better deal?


Those are results, not percentages. You never know what will hit from the start. 

In a race with 100 birds, if guy A sends 10 birds he has a 10% chance to place in any race his 10 birds fly in. Guy B sends 3 birds, he has a 3% chance. If all birds are equal, I'll take the 10%.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I think that I am misunderstood here a bit about how I am valuing the Sure Bet Birds. I am not discounting them as a decent race bird. What my point is, is a simple question.
> 
> Why are they more valuable than a national winner, a Flamingo winner, or a young bird off a World Champion?
> 
> ...


Why don't you market and advertise your birds if you think they are on par with Sure Bet birds, and see where it goes? Like I said before, I know two guys who produce double grandchildren of Sure Bet every year and they can't move them for $250. These are proven crosses for them.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

I'll make it HIT number 85


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> These birds were all bred for stock, correct?


Two were my foundation stock and one was bought at an auction. So Yes would be more appropriate. I would have rather founded my loft on proven race birds, but did not have the funds. Most of the birds I started with were gift birds. I was lucky to find someone who needed another venue to test his birds. He has helped me greatly and I am forever grateful. Out of the 12 original birds given to me by my mentor 10 have produced well for me. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> Why don't you market and advertise your birds if you think they are on par with Sure Bet birds, and see where it goes? Like I said before, I know two guys who produce double grandchildren of Sure Bet every year and they can't move them for $250. These are proven crosses for them.


One of these days when I get some funds I will pursue bird fame. I think I would rather go the futurity route instead of the advertising route. I am proud of what my birds do like many of us are. 

I have entered five futurity and one loft races, all small with a limited number of birds. I was equal 1st in the small Alaska futurity, 1st average speed in the Western Slopes one loft race, 28th and 43rd in the Fred Campbell futurity, 3rd 08 club futurity race and 13th club futurity 09. I think it is ok for us to be proud and happy with what are birds have done. 

I do see those that try and discount what others do. Namely in this thread. There are also members of this thread trying some of my birds out. Don't knock them until you try them. Ace in The Hole won races with them, Steve Guzman, Clifton Spencer, Gary Miller, Anthony Tapia, Joey Chaves, Mario Luna and John McCullough of Albuquerque have all won with my birds. Give them a call see what they say. 

I do know for a fact, my birds are a lot cheaper than Sure Bet Birds. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thing to think about here is that most of my birds are about 50% to 100% Vic Miller stock. Vic has won a few hundreds of thousands in futurity winnings. Many that have his birds have done very well also. ie. Scott McCallister 2001 Snow Bird Winner, Fays Fabreys and so on. 

If you are asking me if I think my birds that are descendants of this family of birds is in par with Sure Bet, I would say yes. Just like Koopmans, Sangers, Thone, W. Smith birds, the short faces, and other families of birds are also in par with them. 

I have seen Red Rose birds, McLaughlin birds, and David Clausin birds like Sure Bet birds make a run at the top. Seems like someone always comes along and dethrones them. 

There are many good birds out there. Funny how one "hot name" seems to bring in the dollars at a given time. Koopman overseas and Sure Bet in the states at present. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> These birds were all bred for stock, correct?


I do not know what your point is here, but keep in mind Bank Robber and Money Maker the parents of Sure Bet were also Ganus birds bred for stock. Birds bred for stock can also be prolific breeders.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Pro if it makes you feel any better, I would buy a youngster off your Andre 3000 and your Windsor hen before I would spend too much money on a Surebet bird. They have quite the breeding record. 

Randy


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> One of these days when I get some funds I will pursue bird fame. I think I would rather go the futurity route instead of the advertising route. I am proud of what my birds do like many of us are.
> 
> I have entered five futurity and one loft races, all small with a limited number of birds. I was equal 1st in the small Alaska futurity, 1st average speed in the Western Slopes one loft race, 28th and 43rd in the Fred Campbell futurity, 3rd 08 club futurity race and 13th club futurity 09. I think it is ok for us to be proud and happy with what are birds have done.
> 
> ...


My point was, you can advertise and promote all you want, but, if you don't have a record to back it up...nobody is coming to buy. You won't get the price of a Vic Miller, McAllister, Clausing, etc.

Nobody is discounting anybody here other than those who discount what the Sure Bet birds, or any big dollar bird, have done. Every time a bird comes up that is priced "high", some automatically go the "i can get as good a bird cheaper" route.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I took a ride on the Ganus wagon a few times more than I cared to and bought the latest, greatest, can't live without. There are no birds you can buy that are not a gamble, even the proven ones. At least with the proven ones they have done it before so they should do it again, if they don't get loose, die, or become barren. Mike Ganus might possibly be the greatest pigeon marketer on earth, ever.LOL He is also the absolute best pigeon importer of world class racing pigeons into the US. Not saying that he has imported the very best pigeon, not saying he hasn't, just that he has done great things for pigeon racing in the US and abroad. What I breed in my loft is Ganus as much as it is not, but to see him work a bird like Sure Bet the way only he can do makes me smile. Lets face it, he is our Elvis, and if you like it or not people pay to see the King.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Jimhalekw said:


> I took a ride on the Ganus wagon a few times more than I cared to and bought the latest, greatest, can't live without. There are no birds you can buy that are not a gamble, even the proven ones. At least with the proven ones they have done it before so they should do it again, if they don't get loose, die, or become barren. Mike Ganus might possibly be the greatest pigeon marketer on earth, ever.LOL He is also the absolute best pigeon importer of world class racing pigeons into the US. Not saying that he has imported the very best pigeon, not saying he hasn't, just that he has done great things for pigeon racing in the US and abroad. What I breed in my loft is Ganus as much as it is not, but to see him work a bird like Sure Bet the way only he can do makes me smile. Lets face it, he is our Elvis, and if you like it or not people pay to see the King.


I haven't ridden that wagon yet and don't plan on doing it, but those Ganus birds have brought in the money at the races. Percentages...that's what I'm talking about. Flood the races with birds down from Ganus and that's what you see win....


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> The majority of your discussions include examples based on your mentor, dave dudley, or *warren smith*.
> 
> Do you know the last one loft race Dave entered? How many birds did he send? How many won him money?
> 
> ...


 I for one, appreciate the kind words which Randy makes about my birds. 
We have not always agreed on everything, but his contributions sure have been significant over the years. And I think many readers would agree. 

If memory serves me correctly, even taking into consideration the relatively poor showing of the birds I sent to the races in 2009, my pigeons have preformed better in all the various races, then the best entries from my friend Mike Ganus. I did not send birds to the Flamingo in 2008 because of the health certificate issue that year. In 2008, I was in the 11th position for average speed in the 2008 Winners Cup. Nothing to take out a full page RPD Front page ad for, but nothing to be ashamed about either....

For the record, in 2007 my bird was the 1st bird in the trap, he dragged two birds home with him, they were the equal first, the next birds did not arrive for 40 minutes.... In the 2006 Flamingo event, had there been an average speed or Top Gun award, I would have won that also, because the bird "Big Deal" was the most consistant in all of the events, and not just an equal 1st on the drop at the main event. 

It is 2010, but the races have yet to be held. And I fully expect to beat Mike's birds again this year, when ever and where ever he dares to enter them in races I participate in. I promoted the Winner's Cup because of my friend who runs it, and as a result Mike must have known I would be in that event, and I think as a result he chickened out. So this year, I will be mum as to where they are going, and he won't be able to chicken out......

So, if Randy has only mentioned a few names, as examples, I think some of them are good examples. But, I might be slightly biased.....  I also believe that Mike Ganus owns the largest and finest collection of racing champions in North America. He has done more for the racing pigeon genetics in the USA then anyone, hands down. With few exceptions, every racing pigeon loft in the country has been impacted by the pigeons that Mike has imported into the country since the 1980's.

I only tease about beating his birds.....I would not be the racing pigeon fanicer I am today, had it not been for the start I got from bird's purchased from Mike. If he is getting top dollar from these Sure Bet birds, I suspect it is not all marketing or glossy slick ads....somewhere along the way, this family of birds have produced the goods.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Haha, Warren, you are not shy about hiding your victories over Mike! But all kidding aside, entering birds that win should hold no shame. One should be proud of the work their birds have done. Now to win is one thing. To win and advertise is another. And to win and advertise with hefty price tags is another thing. 

Sure, Mike has made an investment in getting some of the best racing pigeons around. But, with such big $$$ invested, one has to make a financial return. And with pigeons, it's always hit or miss. But if there is a pigeon/family that can hit more (as terms of baseball, being a career .300 hitter...heck, even batting .198 is terrific) than miss, then the percentages are in play. 

Warren, you alluded to Mike "chickening" out on you. If this is true, then it's more of a strategic move to enter birds into races in which he would not have a chance to win. Again, it's all about PR and advertising. It "pays" to look good more often than not.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

The thing is, I am jealous of Ganus, HFL, SFL and hundreds of others we all have heard and know about. Be it Christopher Smith, Sam Haslem or SkyLakeSions or dozens of other flyers.

My dream is that some day, some other pigeon flyer will be jealous of me and mine.

I just started flying last year and actually won a race. I was discussing it with the guy who gave me that young bird as a gift when I joined the club and thanking him. He happens to be the Race Secretary, Liberator and Recording Secretary of the Combine, Mike Glabb. His response to me was this, "Congratulations. I like it also because I bred that bird. But remember, they will be gunning for you now".

Ha Ha. I can't say that he was right about that, because so many are still offering advice and help still.

I got lucky (winds and all), and it was thrilling. I like getting lucky, and if it takes buying the latest fad line of birds, then I will. What harm could it do other than be a waste of my money? But I ain't taking out loans or taking food from my childrens mouths, to buy pigeons. I am using mad money. Money from my entertainment funds.

Some have larger entertainments funds than others, and God bless them. Even though I often say that there ain't much difference between good birds from good flyers, and great birds from great flyers, If given the choice I will go with the greats.

Defining the greats and affording the greats is a task that one has to learn to master. I have not. There are so many to choose from. I have been looking lately at M&D Evans lofts as a potential loft to obtain birds from. I don't see them advertising often (if at all), but they seem to have the goods. But I am sure that NO ONE could go wrong with obtaining birds from SFL, HFL, or GFL. How much difference can there be? They all have had their day in the limelight.

I'm gonna get me some limelight someday. Im gonna get me one great pigeon from every great flyer, and mold them into one family of birds. Then win everything. How can I lose?

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Funny how value is different for different people. I had a guy the other day want some birds. He was local so I thought about just giving him the three pair so one day I could have some competition in town. He did not look that well to do and had some recent health issues. I told him to just give me what he wanted to, some feed money or such. 

I remembered back when I was getting birds from my mentor and asked him how much he wanted for them. He did not say anything so I asked him what they were worth. He told me if he told me what they were worth that I would not be able to afford them. 

So back to the sale of the birds. I sold them for $5 a piece. Funny that he was willing to give $10. 

I wonder now the trading that goes on between Victor V. and Mike Ganus. I bet they share the wealth without even spending a dime on each others birds. The same birds that people are giving 8K for. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ConditionFreak

My thoughts are that winning bird will stock your loft. First by breeding good birds for you. Second by helping you barter its youngsters for others best youngsters. I have acquired some very good birds, by swapping with them. A great tool for obtaining good stock. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I for one, appreciate the kind words which Randy makes about my birds.
> 
> So, if Randy has only mentioned a few names, as examples, I think some of them are good examples. But, I might be slightly biased.....  I also believe that Mike Ganus owns the largest and finest collection of racing champions in North America. He has done more for the racing pigeon genetics in the USA then anyone, hands down. With few exceptions, every racing pigeon loft in the country has been impacted by the pigeons that Mike has imported into the country since the 1980's.


Ganus birds have also made an impact in my loft. They definitely have gotten me closer to the greats. I have not invested thousands in the birds and could not if I wanted to. He has definitely helped the sport. 

I do think a guy or gal can get some great stock in the US without spending thousands per bird. I think that is what drives my thoughts and attitudes about these $8K price tags on birds. 

A good mentor, good relationships, and good bird practices are much cheaper than $8K and much more rewarding methods of acquiring good birds. 

Randy


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

So did Snow Queen sell?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think this takes the cake over any misspent Sure bet money.
http://www.pipa.be/toppigeons/toppigeon.php?id=1011

This just shows you that Koopman birds are the big thing. 22K on two 1999 birds. The Hen only had one good youngster last year. The cock is a son of Klein Dirk. They say he is fertile, but no guarantee. They do throw in a younger bird with the three. That tells me that the others might not be so good. 

People are nuts. 

Again, I would buy a nice pickup for say 20K, run down and see Dinga, Warren, Carzy Al, Art Hees, Ganus etc. and get me say a half dozen to a dozen good youngsters for the remaining 2K. That way I could build me a good sound family of birds and even have a pickup to run them around in. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I do like seeing the bird "Blue Spirit" bring in $1250.00. He two to three generations further down the pedigree than my Albert Marcellis bird. If the offspring do anything for me maybe they will be worth something. Right now they are just eating seeds.

Randy


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Life is yours to live. Are you the type of person that can be happy winning a race because many of the birds in it are yours? Maybe you are the type that strives for perfection and only wishes to send a few to see the results? Maybe you are somewhere in the middle and are happy with that? Is anyone smarter? So many different people I am just glad there are enough to hold a race. Jim


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Darrel is selling snowqueen and a nephew for 10k if anyone is intrested.


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

uh-oh, what's going on here? Back on market?

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=77214


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Looks like the deal didn't go through. I always wonder when something happens like this, if it was the money (or lack thereof), or someone didn't like the birds in hand after they received them.

Can pigeons bought on an internet auction be returned for a refund?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Let's see what happens now..?!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Gee....that sounds very unprofessional to me....so someone is able to bid whatever they want to, and if they end up "winning" the bid, they simply say no thanks !?!


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Gee....that sounds very unprofessional to me....so someone is able to bid whatever they want to, and if they end up "winning" the bid, they simply say no thanks !?!


I guess it wasnt a sure bet to them.. doh!


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sure someone had gotten yelled at by the significant other lol.


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Thought surebet was an American ace pigeon for that much then saw it's race record


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Maybe someone read our posts and changed their mind?! Just kidding!


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Wow, is that legal?


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

If you look at the auction it isn't being sold by the original guy Protege Loft it's being sold by Tony Chang now and is just using the original posting. The way I take is that he bought it thinking he could make a profit or maybe he bought them and when he got the birds he didn't like them.


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

Pigeon0446 said:


> If you look at the auction it isn't being sold by the original guy Protege Loft it's being sold by Tony Chang now and is just using the original posting. The way I take is that he bought it thinking he could make a profit or maybe he bought them and when he got the birds he didn't like them.


To add to that, he may of bred a round, foster the eggs.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

According to the original ad, the bird was sold to be exported. Maybe something didn't come through, such as import/export issues. Somebody wanted the birds real bad because there was a proxy bid in place. Don't know what happened. 

Either way, the birds were paid for because ipigeon will take the money out from your credit card.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

It will be interesting to see how this second auction goes.

The first was at 4,010 dollars with 6 days to go. Now it is at 4,010 dollars with 1 day to go.

I am betting it will go for around 6500 or so. It will not reach the "original" 8+K, I BET (pun intended).


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I heard from a good friend that Darrell Eaker is having more success with Gaby birds than Sure Bet birds. Perhaps that's the reason for the purging of the Sure Bet birds?


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

conditionfreak said:


> It will be interesting to see how this second auction goes.
> 
> The first was at 4,010 dollars with 6 days to go. Now it is at 4,010 dollars with 1 day to go.
> 
> I am betting it will go for around 6500 or so. It will not reach the "original" 8+K, I BET (pun intended).




I would agree with you that it will close around 6500. I don't know if he was trying to make his money back, but the starting bid did start pretty low. Usually the sure bets are listed pretty high on the auction lots.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

The new auction ended for $4990 so that took a nice loss.


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

Pigeon0446 said:


> The new auction ended for $4990 so that took a nice loss.


 It actually ended @ $5010.00. Thats still a loss.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Wow. Even less than I thought. I hope the seller got a bunch of eggs from him/them. Don't know how many could have come from the hen though. Not many for sure.


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> If you look at the auction it isn't being sold by the original guy Protege Loft it's being sold by Tony Chang now and is just using the original posting. The way I take is that he bought it thinking he could make a profit or maybe he bought them and when he got the birds he didn't like them.


Does anyone know this "Tony Chang"? Never heard of him or seen his name in any race report...


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Only thing I know is that there is a "Chang" in China that has bid on some expensive birds in the past. But as I understand it, once a bird goes into China, it can't come back out.

See the bids on the #4 bird on this PiPa auction. May not be Tony Chang though. I am sure it is a common name from China. Like Smith here.

http://www.pipa.be/toppigeons/toppigeon.php?id=988


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