# I feel so bad for replacing their eggs with dummies



## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

I read, and asked before, info about how to slow down this endless eggs- babies production of my attic's already 24 (not pets) pigeons. AT THIS COLD TIME OF WINTER (winter here ends at end of April). The little ones are very sensitive during the cold season and not once I had them die in my hands despite all my desperate fight to save them. I was thinking that taking their eggs and replacing them with dummies would be easy. It is not: I feel so guilty and I would like to know if this "miscarriage" will not traumatize the mothers who hoped so much to have babies, or to the contrary, a little bit of break will do them good. I am looking at the still warm eggs in my hands and at the wooden ones which the father rushed to sit on and I don't know what to do not to feel so guilty: to put them back? And, if not, if they would make other eggs, and others, and others, etc, to replace them as well, and so on, until end of April? Please help me to choose the right decision. For all of us, those birds and.. me.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Most people have a way to separate the birds for those that don't dummy eggs are the only way to go, with any luck they will sit the dummy eggs for longer than the 18 day that it takes to hatch. It sounds cruel but just go toss the eggs it's some thing you'll have to get used to or you will have hundreds of birds.
Dave


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I understand how you feel. I used to feel that way too and sometimes, even now, after years and years, I feel a tinge of regret.
What I know is that pigeons do love their babies although I think a lot of it is instinctual and once the babies are weaned, the bond for the most part breaks. What I came to realize is that to let more babies hatch was irresponsible, on my part, as the responsibility to care for them can last many years. If I allowed all eggs laid in my loft to hatch, I would quickly be over run with pigeons and I would come to resent them. It would not be their fault, but mine.
There are so many pigeons in desperate need of homes...I have over 20 in need of homes myself that are either discards from other lofts or rehabed ferals that cannot be released.
I really do think you are doing the most responsible and kind thing.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

One of the issues touched by this action is the pigeon milk that I heard that both parents will start building in their crop upon the laying of the eggs: wouldn't that unused milk hurt them somehow? Also, as soon as the spring comes (end of April) I will let them restart the (temporarily) interrupted life cycle. So: will the parents be physically hurt by this "miscarriage?" But psychologically? Will they stop trusting me when I approach their baskets? Thank you.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I hate it too, I never get used to it. But its the better option.

Also, birds are different to us in that family ties do not last in the same way they do with us. One minute they are craving babies like anything, the next they are trying to chase their young out of their territory, or trying to kill them. The love is fairly short lived with some birds!

Overcrowding is much worse, I think. that's what i say every time I replace the eggs. And my birds still trust and like me, so they mustn't take it too hard.


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## Doveman1 (Dec 10, 2012)

I plan on keeping males and females in seperate coops. Although if you don't want to do that I saw this one video where he had the same coop but had seperators for the birds so they could or couldn't breed depending on if he left the barrier up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0E-pol1AzM


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I felt sorry initially too. I felt sorry thinking what the couples would feel. I replace their eggs with fake ones. I spent time watching them. When time comes for the eggs to hatch, i see the males spending more time in the nest or beside his mate; kind of anxiety: is it hatching or not? Then after one day the mates will be in and out the nest checking on their eggs. The second day they just simply abandon the eggs and i see them happy to bound again. That's when i remove completely the fake eggs.

I really don't think they suffer. They get over quickly and accept the reality and start all over what mother nature put in their instinct. I always wonder if they remember that they laid before on eggs and they didn't hatch. I believe they don't recall for too long. They are not like people to dwell on the issue, suffering or getting depressed. I just see them happy even if the eggs didn't hatch, as long as they are with the mate.

I think that separating them would make them suffer.
I also recall that Charis said ones that even if you separate them, if they can hear each other , females can lay eggs..and that's sad, because they know the mate is there but cannot be with him. Hearing his coo would be a constant reminder of being separated ( same with the male).


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

I am still unclear about the milk formation in the parents' crops. And also, as they became so many, that I had to replace the eggs of at least 6 pairs at once. Hopefully they will not find this coincidence suspicious. Thank you very much for your posts.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

*How is the unused milk disolve from parents' crops and what to do with dummies size*

As I was saying above, I would be so happy if someone might know what happens with the unused milk of parents, when I remembered something else. Also important. These pigeons in my attic came to adopt me from the woods. Their size is smaller than the size of the city pigeons. And, of course the size of their eggs too. The dummies from Foy are at least 1/3 bigger which the parents, especially the hens, do not rush to accept. What to do? Thank you


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

nitamircela said:


> I read, and asked before, info about how to slow down this endless eggs- babies production of my attic's already 24 (not pets) pigeons. AT THIS COLD TIME OF WINTER (winter here ends at end of April). The little ones are very sensitive during the cold season and not once I had them die in my hands despite all my desperate fight to save them. I was thinking that taking their eggs and replacing them with dummies would be easy. It is not: I feel so guilty and I would like to know if this "miscarriage" will not traumatize the mothers who hoped so much to have babies, or to the contrary, a little bit of break will do them good. I am looking at the still warm eggs in my hands and at the wooden ones which the father rushed to sit on and I don't know what to do not to feel so guilty: to put them back? And, if not, if they would make other eggs, and others, and others, etc, to replace them as well, and so on, until end of April? Please help me to choose the right decision. For all of us, those birds and.. me.


One must consider the alternative, which means over crowded lofts, and/or unwanted pigeons. Birth control is not just for humans, and their cats and dogs. 

What most homing pigeon fanciers do, is they separate the sexes, and reduce the feed intake. By reducing the food intake, the hens may reduce or stop their laying of eggs. I find this preferable to replacing the eggs with dummies, because I don't want my hens laying eggs like chickens. There are only so many eggs that a hen can lay, and once she has laid them all, then she is finished. 

Replacing eggs, with dummies, I am quite certain does the hen no emotional harm. I have never been convinced that a pigeon has the same emotional capabilities as a human. In other words, "feelings" such as guilt, disappointment, etc. are not possible in a pigeon. Your hens I am quite certain, will not feel that same thoughts that a woman would feel, should babies not be forthcoming. Their brains are hard wired to do what they do, they don't "think" as you and I might do. So they will feel no disappointment, or feel sad or sorry, over their eggs not hatching.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I use to feel bad switching eggs, and still do with some of the 'best' parents....but it has to be done! But I also get a good laugh out of it too! I have some birds that insist on nesting on the floor. They will go around and gather other fake eggs that they find on the floor. I have one hen out there sitting on 5 eggs!, another on 4 and another on 3.....and they won't budge! If I need another fake egg, I just take one of their 'pre-warmed' eggs for the switch!


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Although the birds may begin or be prepared to produce "milk".......without using it production typically stops quickly. I don't believe the birds mourn. Even from an evolutionary point of view it doesn't make sense. Large mammals like humans and elephants invest so much time and energy and teaching into their relatively few offspring that the bond has to be very close and long-term. The loss of a youngster is a tradgedy as so much time and resources go into that youngster. Pigeons have a high reproductive rate because many of their eggs and young do not normally survive anyway due to preadators etc. You will notice if you take their young or eggs away they will go and look for them but, if they are not there, they quickly go back to courting and restarting the cycle. As mentioned above....you have to think what is the better alternative.....replacing the eggs with dummies or having so many birds that they suffer from overcrowding. Certainly replacing a new egg is much ore humane and results in better quality of life for those birds living there.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

*Interesting idea especially helping my ignorance re: feeding*

You convinced me, thank you. But you just gave me a little bit of an additional explanation: So they lye eggs so often because I feed them too often/much... Hmm. Interesting. Please suggest me how often I should feed them, for example twice a day is too much? Beside their having breakfast in the attic in the morning (with closed windows as protection against the squirrels who also know their breakfast time), once I take away the trays with food and I open the windows, each time when I see pigeons knocking in the glass sliding doors of my balcony/deck, I rush to put another tray with seeds on the table of the balcony/deck. I am doing this because I don't know whom I fed in the morning and whom not (some prefer to nest outside of the attic, under my eaves where they had custom made boxes and my God, they are all alike physically). Also because of the hawks my gorgeous dove cote with 20 partitions stays unused the pigeons feeling safer closer to me the great owl hooing scare-hawk in the attic/eaves of the balcony. The second meal (besides the additional from the balcony, is late in the afternoon. But whom how many times... Total blackout...Briefly, I don't know whom I am feeding additionally to the twice attic feeding.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

nitamircela said:


> So they lye eggs so often because I feed them too often/much... Hmm. Interesting. Please suggest me how often I should feed them, for example twice a day is too much? .................


 Try as I might, not sure it is possible for me to articulate how to feed pigeons the "correct" amount for the given work at hand. Feeding pigeons the correct amount, is an art form, not a science. 

Food is measured in calories, not how many times a day the food is consumed. So it matters not, how many times a day you feed, it is how much food they are consuming. A pigeon can store more food then is needed in their crops. Colder weather will require more food, not unlike humans. Most pigeon keepers will overfeed. Fanciers who race pigeons, typically are more in tune with the weight of the pigeon, and the amount of body fat. And the amounts and types of feed to maintain a particular condition. 

I use the winter months to get my pigeons to their idea body weight. I reduce the fat in their diet, along with protein. I reduce not only quality but quantity as needed. In other words, more wheat, some barley, etc. Although I have undergone fasts extending for weeks, I never subscribed to putting pigeons on a fast, which some fanciers do. 

Bottom line is, the hens are going to need to fed only the amounts needed to maintain health, but not enough to raise a family. So one would have to feed them less then what they want, but all that they need. Easier to show, then to tell. If they still laying eggs, then you know you feeding too much.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nitamircela said:


> As I was saying above, I would be so happy if someone might know what happens with the unused milk of parents, when I remembered something else. Also important. These pigeons in my attic came to adopt me from the woods. Their size is smaller than the size of the city pigeons. And, of course the size of their eggs too. The dummies from Foy are at least 1/3 bigger which the parents, especially the hens, do not rush to accept. What to do? Thank you


From what I have read the "milk" production if not used is absorbed back into the body and therefore they would not use up extra calories to keep producing it for the few days or so that they feed it. so in the long run, pigeons who do not raise and feed babies are healthier.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I hate doing it too, and even after years of keeping birds, I still cringe when I switch out the eggs ... but it honestly is the right thing to do.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH, if it was not for my neverending bad cough and if I were a little bit healthier/more aware, I could have not gotten so depressed. Maybe. Right now I have 8 eggs in a little bowl, 3 more expecting mothers are waiting for their egg #2, and boy, that it would be a lot of eggs at once for this week. After I come from my doctor with some (maybe) reassuring news about my cough, it would be easier. Maybe. For the time being I will try to monitor the extra-feeding. Again, THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH, and God give you good health to you and your featherly babies.


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