# Rehabbing info needed



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi everyone. It's been a while since I've been here & I hope everyone is doing well. I've been a little "lost" for the past few months, dealing w/too many furry and feathered tragedies. However, it's time to get back on track, doing my very best for the sick little pijies that cross my path. Currently there are two PMV pijies in my care for the past 4 months. If anyone can help w/any or all of the following questions, it would be greatly appreciated. 

1) I am told these 2 pijies have hook & whip worms and "oocyst". My vet gave me albon (.2ml/day for 7 days) and panacur (.2ml day 1 & day 10). I have already finished the albon, but I am very nervous about the panacur. I have been told in the past that panacur can be deadly to birds and I'm struggling w/the pros & cons. (FYI, I had also used the albon when I first rescued them 4 months ago.) Both pijies are 11 oz each. What is the most effective and safe way to deal w/these worms?

2) Both are seed throwers & star gazers. They don't seem to eat much, judging by the amount & color of their poop. I have been syringe feeding 2-3 ml's, once a day, of Kaytee Exact since day 1. Is this enough? 

Also, when I find a very, very emaciated pijie, what is the correct amount to feed and how often?

3) From day 1 each of these 2 pijies has been in a 3' x 2' box, with a tree branch & rock for perching, 9" bird bath, and of plenty of fresh food & water. I'm feeling horrible that they have been confined like this for so long. It's just that because I have to catch them everyday for feeding & I feel it's less stressful on them and on me. Could this confinement be one reason they aren't getting any better? Is it better to give them a large area to roam, so they can stretch their wings & have to deal w/a longer time trying to catch them for feeding?

Thanks again for any help.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Leslie,

sorry to hear you have such sick pigeons.
Feeding 2-3ml, is definatetly not enough. An adult pigeon should be getting at least 20-30 ml three times a day.
If you are feeding only once a day I would go with 30ml, preferably in the evening.

When you fist get an amaciated bird, you don't feed nothing right away. You start off by hydrating the bird with a pedialyte solution, amount 10% of the birds weight. You watch if he is urinating and 5-6 hours later you repeat the fluids to which you add vitA, vit B complex, vit C and E.
After another 4-5 hours you can start feeding a very thin formula, not more than 10ml the first time.
The next meal can be 15ml, also thin formula.
After that, if the bird is pooping you go up with the amount and consistency of the formula gradually until you reach 30ml at one sitting.

I kept my PMV birds in cages and isolation for two months. The cage is mostly so the birds cannot hurt themselves while free roaming in a room. You can give food and a small bowl of water. Avoid baths when you cannot supervise them directly, cause if they have an "attack" while bathing they can easily drown.

It can take a long time for PMV birds to recover. And rarely, some never do, but the symptoms will get better in time and they can lead happy lives.
Extra calcium can help with the symtoms and so does Vit B complex.
You could also try a natural treatment with Belladona, which you can find in health food stores.

Also a natural treatment for worms is shapparell tea, two drops for an adult bird.
While the bird is sick I would try that first and if it doesn't work, maybe give only one dose of Panacur, then repeat after 10 days.
There are also other dewormers less toxic, I think.

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Leslie, 

Where did you get the dosage for the panacur...from your vet...do you trust this person completely? I'm not familiar with panacur dosages but the amount sounds reasonable. 

Ivermectin is a safer wormer but I think if you have the dosage right for the panacur, it's safe. The ivermectin has a safer margin of error than the panacur is all.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi rockie, 


I'd agreee with Retis mention, that it makes sense for PMV Birds not only to be in a quarenteen where no other Birds can get near them, but, for them to be in (smallish is fine, just so long as they can do Wing stretches or the odd careful flapping for lite excercise now and then, of ) Cages... 

...with daily fresh Seeds, Grit and a smallish Water Bowl. They can get 'spacey' at times and this will guard against them hurting themselves from falling, or even drowning. Warmth even, would be good if you are somewhere that gets chilly at night.

Knock-on-wood, the probable PMV Pigeons I have had, had decent appetites and managed to eat quite well on their own, even if with some star-gazing going on in their otherwise pecking activities for the Seeds.

If yours are 'thin' I'd think it best to fatten them up indeed...

If your feeding method allows it, you could try making Seed-Meal in your kitchen Blender, make a cup full at least so the blades can get to it, and use it for a few days and then make more....this will have more wholesome and easier digested nutrients and fiber than the potentially sluggish-in-the-Crop of Kay-Yee stuff. 

You can always add some Kay-Tee to it in some proportion, and, of course, you can add to it whatever you want as for enhanced Nutrition...tiny amounts of Garlic, powdered Greens, whatever...

Scrub your hands well with lots of Soap and Water kind of vigorous friction before going off to handle or visit with any other Birds...

Use only the same rotated bowls for these Babies, Bleached and Rinsed well in-between, and or soak them in Bleach Water and Sun dry for a few days before letting other Birds eat or drink from them.

I am liking the white Safflower Seeds a lot, and so are my various Birds. Lots of fat in them and a good tasteing Seed they are too. Calories for the Convelescent Bird, I think, are a nice thing to ensure when we can...they will burn them up, too. Linnseeds or Flax Seeds, nice chewy ones that are not dried out, I feel may well be a good thing also for the convelescent Bird, regardless of it's compromise it is recovering from. These have some very special oils in them which are benificial for many things.

Other Seeds too of course...mix 'em up and so on for the self Feeders' Seed Bowls, and or blend 'em in the Blender, blend them fine even and sieve them with a screen of some kind even, for feeding in a Catheter if it will pass it.

Mix up some chow with it and feed it pronto since the Meal will swell somewhat of course from liquid, and for passing through a Catheter, may as well get it done before it swells much.

Good luck...


You have your hands full there...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

To date, we've had approximately 15 pigeons with the PMV/CNS symptoms, three have been in such bad shape the vet euthanized them after seeing no improvement. There are several diseases such as lead poisening and pesticide poisenings that can cause some of the same PMV symptoms. I'm pretty sure that neither of yours have these diseases or they'd be dead by now without treatment. I think I mentioned in another post that a combination of Metronidazole and Baytril helped several of ours. We get these birds in in "bunches" - sometimes 2-3 a year and all from the same general area and at the same time, then we can go two or so years and not get in any. 

Your cage sounds fine to me - the only thing I would suggest is to remove the branches and the bathing bowl. Our vets have always advised against any perches because the birds can easily fall off and hurt themselves. But there again, if you've had these birds four months without any problem, they're probably doing fine with the perches. I guess its the degree of the symptoms.

One last thing, I also use a product called Nutri-cal to add some calories to them. This stuff comes in a tube and like so much other stuff we have to use for pigeons, it is for dogs and cats. I squeeze about 3/4 inch into the Exact and it adds a few calories.


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Thank you all for this info. Needless to say I am shocked at how underfed my 2 pijies have been! The thing I can't believe is that their crops will be able to hold 30ml at one time. I hope they let me do this, as they aren't too happy w/me even doing 3ml's.

Reti,
I use 1ml oral syringes because the tip is the smallest. Can I give them 30 of them one right after the other, without waiting in between? How stressful will this be for them? Also, what is the normal weight for a healthy pigeon?

Sorry I need specifics - how much vit A, B complex, C, E & calcium should I give? Shappenell tea - 2 drops just 1 time or more?

On the separate issue of any new sick bird found, isn't it dangerous to use such a thin formula? I have trouble seeing to the back of the throat to make sure it goes in the right place and not where it shouldn't. Any tips?

Brad,
I do trust my vet, but I'm going to ask about the Ivermectin - anything safer is more appealing to me.

Phil,
The food bowls I use are stainless steel & I usually put them through the dishwasher...is this not a good idea? Also, I will try the seeds in the blender idea...hopefully it will work in the syringe I am using.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO TALK TO ME LIKE I KNOW NOTHING, BECAUSE EVIDENTLY I HAVE A LOT TO LEARN. THANKS AGAIN!


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

Thanks for your input. All my PMV birds come from the same flock (which consists of approx 300 pigeons or so). I will speak w/my vet about the meds you mentioned. If it is safe to use in the community bird bath I put out for them (and is safe for the other birds that visit), maybe that will help.

I also have nutri-cal at home...I will try it. Isn't the consistancy too thick to mix?

The branches I use (they each only have one) sits directly on the floor and doesn't roll, so I think they are fine w/it. I just feel sooooo awful about their confinement for such a long time, with no end in site. My last sweetheart of a pijie, "Rockie", she brings tears to my eyes just to think of her, passed away in March. Thankfully however, she was an eater and could have more freedom and a room w/many windows and lots of large portions of dead trees to perch on. I understand why my current two are confined, but I also wonder if it makes their recovery that more difficult???


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Leslie,

the thing with PMV is that everything new, exciting, scary makes the symptoms only worse, so being confined might not be too bad for them.

It certainly is stressful to put the syringe in 30 times. You might want to tube feed, it is easier and quicker and safer to do. I am sure your vet can show you how and give you some tubes.
For now, after feeding only 2-3ml you can't just go up to 30ml at once you will have to do it gradually. First 6ml, next time 10 and so on. You always check the crop.

The thin formula is indicated for an emaciated bird cause he needs to have his digestive system going first which is easier done with a diluted formula. A thick formula will only stay in the crop too long

Ok, vit A you give two drops from a fish oil capsule.
Vit B, 1/4 of the smallest human capsule, same with vitC, one 1/4 of the 250mg tablet, you need to dissolve those first.
Vit E 3-4 drops.

I have to check on the tea, how long you give it.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Rockie, the metronidazole and baytril I mentioned were given to each individual bird on an as needed basis - not to a whole flock. I also wouldn't worry about their being confined because we kept ours isolated for a few months until their symptoms disappeared. 

I forgot to mention, I give our birds Pyrantel-Strongid for worms. We used to use Panacur but the vet stopped prescribing that - said the Pyrantel-Strongid was a more "forgiving" wormer and safer to use. We've used it for several years and have had no problems with it.

The Nutri-cal is thick, but when mixed with the Exact is diluted but the calories are still there. Your guys really need more than you're feeding them. Could you try giving them 10 cc 3 x day for at least 30 a day. When we're hand feeding the babies/fledglings we often give them 30 cc 3 x day. If it is a "big built" bird we can give 40cc or more per feeding. Just make sure you do it in small "squirts", going past the hole at the back of their throat. With the "cat nipples" that we use, we go in from the bird's left and direct the nipple toward the bird's right, squirt a little, stop, and start again. We've found if you release a full syringe of formula at once the bird can aspirate some of it.

I hope some of this helps. One thing I've noticed is that we all have our own methods that vary a little and we may not use the same products but the end goal is always the same --- save the bird!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel,

I'm guessing that you don't use a tube for tube feeding that goes all the way down to the crop? When I first needed to do that years ago, I found the technique on the internet but it showed this super-duper-surgical-supplyhouse lookin' equipment that I knew I wasn't going to find quick enough for the little fella' I was tryin' to save.

So, I SOUTHERN ENGINEERED it!!! Being from the south, we can do things like that. Anyhow, if you want to try it--here's how you do it:

Go to your local Home Depot, Lowe's, Radio Shack or hardware store and buy ELECTRICAL HEAT SHRINK TUBING. It will come in assorted sizes in one bag. They should all be about four inches long or so and will probably be black. There is a size that will stretch perfectly over the end of a normal-sized syringe nozzle. The other end is best rounded just a tad by almost, but not quite, touching it to a lit match. If you overdo it, it will shrink back too far down the tube and make a sharp edge. You can trim that back to the roundness with fingernail clippers or a razor blade, whatever.

Those tubes are extremely soft and will slide down waaaaayyy past the larynx so no problems with aspirating the bird. They're too soft to actually hurt the bird and you can oil them if you're working on a really small chick.

That leaves the syringes--I usually use a 60cc. I had problems making them last very long because the plunger always got horribly sticky after awhile. You can go to an auto parts store and get a can of Food Grade Teflon/Silicone spray and occasionally spray the inside of the syringe with a little as well as the black rubber stopper part of the plunger. I've used just one for almost a year doing that. You will eventually need to replace all parts but it's pretty cheap this way.

Pidgey


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## Bruce (Feb 27, 2004)

*Feeding by Syringe*

I use a 20 ml syringe. I give them 20 ml of Exact baby bird food twice/day. Start with less food and mix it on the watery side until you're sure it's coming out the other end. I watch the outflow and their crop to make sure there is motility. 

Be careful what you use for the end of the feeding syringe. If the material is stiff and the end sharp you could cut them. Make sure you put slight pressure around their throat when you quickly push the plunger (and get the tube down the throat far enough) so that the food doesn't come up into their mouth and breathing hole.

It's scary for the first couple of times but you'll get it.

I had a young PMV bird, Lil Peep, that was in such bad shape she couldn't stand up or eat. I put her in a woven bread basket with tall sides so it would support her leaning. I used rolled up paper towels to pad the sides and front so she had a U shaped cushion all around her except for the back. Have a roll of paper towel near by so that you can change them often. They HATE sitting in their own crap. If you don't change their paper they'll start getting jumpy and try to get out of the basket. Use a separate paper, (if you don't know at which end I'm talking about give up now) that you can easily change without rebuilding the whole "nest".

Be patient!!! LiL' peep eventually started to stand, then eat, then walk, then fly. She walked a little like R2D2 so she was extra cute. 

She ended up being our house bird and flew to greet everyone who came over. She would fly over and lay down on my chest while I was in bed to get petted and have a little nap. She was super sweet.

We came home one day and she was gone. The only thing we can figure out is that our other house bird might have chased her out an open window and either she got lost of some a-hole hawk got her. Broke our hearts. 

Our house birds always have the option of leaving anytime. Our first one we've had for over 3 years. 

Moral of the story - hang in there with the PMV birds. I think the hand feeding and care establishes a special bond with them.

I now have 3 pmv birds that have their on "special" cage. One has been here for about 2 years and appears to be doing fine. The problem he is attached to the other PMV bird and I don't have the heart to split them up. Her recovery is coming along slow but steady and their happy.

I have a huge white Cal King that has had it also. He's alright unless he gets stressed, then the top of his head hits the deck.

I've had other pmv birds that recovered and went back to the world like nothing happened.

There's so much I don't know about these guys it depresses me. But I have saved a boat load. If anyone has any questions I'll be happy to give you my two cents.

Also watch the Vets. I had one tell me that you should put them to sleep if they have pigeon pox because it can't be cured. Ask the 15 or so that I've fixed and are out crapping on cars. Out of the 5 Vets that I've taken birds to I've only found one that isn't more interested in his cash register then the bird.

Also Medpet makes great products for single doses. They have a wormer that is one pill and kicks butt. Ronsec it great for Canker, it's time release. They have a 4 in 1 pill that kills Salmonella(paratyphoid), canker, coccidiosis and E.coli. 

Vetafarm has a lot of pigeon products. They sell a wormer and a small 5 in one pill (Tony's Treasure' that works great. They also make a small Doxycyline 15mg pill that is great for Respiratory and other proplems. They have one called Respire that is a Doxy with Bromhexine which reduces the mucus and clears the airways.

All of these pills make it easy once you figure out what the problem is. Until you figure it out Tony's Tresure 5-in-one will eliminate the 5 leading problems.

If you can't find the stuff on the internet email and I'll give you a link. I don't know if it's cool to provide a link on this forum.

You're doing a great thing by trying to save the PMV birds. Keep up the good work. 

*Thanks moderators for this outstanding forum!*


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## missmadison (Jun 19, 2009)

Emeraid for omnivores would be ideal for an emaciated bird. We use this in the wildlife hospital that I work at. I think you need to feed a little more than 2 to 3 mls...I'll look into what is protocol for our birds re: what we feed our piegons and how much and try to post back!



Rockie said:


> Hi everyone. It's been a while since I've been here & I hope everyone is doing well. I've been a little "lost" for the past few months, dealing w/too many furry and feathered tragedies. However, it's time to get back on track, doing my very best for the sick little pijies that cross my path. Currently there are two PMV pijies in my care for the past 4 months. If anyone can help w/any or all of the following questions, it would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 1) I am told these 2 pijies have hook & whip worms and "oocyst". My vet gave me albon (.2ml/day for 7 days) and panacur (.2ml day 1 & day 10). I have already finished the albon, but I am very nervous about the panacur. I have been told in the past that panacur can be deadly to birds and I'm struggling w/the pros & cons. (FYI, I had also used the albon when I first rescued them 4 months ago.) Both pijies are 11 oz each. What is the most effective and safe way to deal w/these worms?
> 
> ...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Missmadison,.

If you look at the date when this was originally posted, post #1 was in 2005.
Also, if you read Moderator Reti's posts, and some other excellent posts from members, there is actually good protocol for feeding pigeons to be found in this thread.

fp


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## missmadison (Jun 19, 2009)

feralpigeon said:


> Missmadison,.
> 
> If you look at the date when this was originally posted, post #1 was in 2005.
> Also, if you read Moderator Reti's posts, and some other excellent posts from members, there is actually good protocol for feeding pigeons to be found in this thread.
> ...


Still learning my way around the forum so didn't even think to look at the date. Sincere apologies. I won't post again until I have a chance to read through everything. I just had a moment and replied hastily...thinking it might be helpful. Won't do that again!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

missmadison said:


> Still learning my way around the forum so didn't even think to look at the date. Sincere apologies. I won't post again until I have a chance to read through everything.


Not a problem, looks like you work in a wildlife hospital, I'm sure you will have
some valuable information to share w/members.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

lol, missmadison, don't worry about it. I have done the same thing along with many others.

I am pleased you have joined the forum and with your experience at the wildlife center you can really help us with sick and injured birds. Looking forward to hearing about the feeding protocols you use.


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