# PLEASE have a look at this poop?!?



## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

one of my birds has been passing this odd looking poo for the past couple of days. I can best describe it as looking like the white urate portion is distributed over the surface of the rest of the dropping, rather than in a blob at the end. Inside the white coating, the dropping color/texture appears normal. It is very distinctive and bizarre looking, and thankfully the bird sat still and passed a bunch like this overnight, now i know who it is and can medicate her if need be.

I don't know if this represents a normal physiological change in droppings (due to ??) or is a sign of illness, but am hoping that someone here might have seen something like it before and have a clue. It is very distinctive and odd looking poop.

thanks, hope this looks familiar to someone out there!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Have occasionally seen it like that. Does the bird present any other symptoms that would suggest it's not feeling well? If all the urates were the greener color, I'd probably isolate and treat with Baytril. As they are, I'd just keep that bird under very close observation for the next few weeks and see how things go.

Pidgey


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Thank you, Pidgey. It is an enormous relief to at least hear someone say they've seen them that look like this. I will keep an eye on her and the droppings for changes.

Would greenish/yellowish urates indicate kidney issues? If so would sulfa (bactrim) be ok to try?

thanks again


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Urates are funny in that they can start out white and then change color in time because bile from the solids of the poop can leach out into them slowly. This can turn them particularly nasty shades of green over time. When urates come directly out of the bird as yellowish or greenish, then's when it really gets to be a worry although when a bird's on Kaytee, they're unlikely to come out pure white anyhow.

Yes, kidney problems can cause off-color urates, too. Don't know a simple way to tell for sure which is going on. Since there can be any of many different diseases of either the liver or the kidneys, there is no firm answer on whether Bactrim (a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination) is going to be the correct choice or not in any given instance. It's a good antibiotic and occasionally works where Baytril does not. Often, it's the other way around. Sometimes you try this one for awhile, don't get good results and then switch to the other and at other times, either one would work just fine.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

There seems to be an overabundance of urates in the droppings and that probably means the body is producing more and the kidneys are trying to get rid of as much as they can. Also, if the dark droppings I see in the upper left are from the same bird and this is not the camera, there is blood in the upper GI tract. It looks like black blood in the pictures.
This may all be an intestinal problem. If it were me, I would use a shotgun approach. Isolate the bird. Treat with a coccidiosis medication. If you have a sulpha drug, use it for the cocci treatment. Worm the bird just in case and start an antibiotic like Baytril or Doxycycline and keep that up for 14 days. Don't use grit or any source of calcium during this time period.
Now, that's a lot of drugs so if you have a probiotic or plain yougurt, use it to try and avoid yeast infection cropping up from all of these. I honestly don't think a vet would do any differently in this situation.
As a test, can you hand feed and fill up the crop with wet Purina Puppy Chow? If the bird has a normal GI tract, the droppings should turn brown and more liquid. I would do this over a two day period so that all other food is digested and you can see the results of the Puppy Chow. If it doesn't turn, then there is definitely a problem in the GI tract.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There's really quite a bit of wet-looking poop, some of it trampled into the bedding. Is that all from one bird? One other thing is that there's straw and I seem to remember that straw is kinda' notorious for growing some molds, especially when there's a lot of dampness.

Pidgey


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I should have said, there is poo visible from 2 adults and a youngster, not yet self-feeding. The dark poo to the left is from a different adult and/or the baby. It is a bit too runny and muddy looking for me to consider 'normal' so I do think there is something distinctly unhealthy going on with everyone in this family! 

My birds had all been under a lot of antibiotic therapy up until about 14 days ago, from my vet, for an ailment we thought was bacterial. Turned out it wasn't, but everyone got loaded up on the antibiotics unfortunately. They have been off them for almost 2 weeks and I am giving probiotics every 3rd day or so on the feed. 

I would think by now things would be returning to normal, but this change in poop has shown up in the past 3 days or so. I tried to crop out the other droppings because I was especially concerned about the filmy ones.

Some of the apparent excess moisture is real, some over-reaction to the flash on the camera. 

I change the straw in the boxes daily. It was at this morning's change that I noticed this pile of odd poop.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

Is there any odor coming from the droppings? If this bird was on antibiotics already, this could be a post reaction to an enteritis. Don't give any more antibiotics if this bird was on for two weeks. I still suggest you hand feed wet Chow to see if the droppings change back to brown.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I did sniff it, it is not malodorous. There is some odor, but it is not strong or foul. I'm sorry I can't think of a word to describe it.  

This nest box is occupied by a pair of females and their "OOPS!" baby, who is not yet weaned. The baby's about 4 weeks old.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

I've been spending time trying to research this. I can't come up with anything exactly on point but the closest is the following:

http://tinyurl.com/239zcl

"Color is also an important indicator. Feces of birds on seed diets generally have greener droppings, while those on pelleted diets have browner droppings. Pigmented foods (e.g. beets, blueberries, raspberries) can change the color of feces. *Clay colored feces may indicate pancreatic disease, maldigestion, or malabsorption*. Bright green feces may be found with Chlamydia, other bacterial, or viral diseases that affect the liver. Blood in the feces can be a sign of liver disease, papillomas, intestinal inflammation (infections or dietary), or egg laying problems. A change in the color of the urate to pink, red, or “chocolate milk” can be seen with lead or zinc poisoning. Lime green urates can be seen with chlamydiosis. Starvation may produce bile stained urates. Yellow-green urates can be seen with hemolysis (red cell break down) and liver disease from various causes.

The one thing I do know for sure is that heavy antibiotic usage after any kind of enteritis can cause malabsorbtion or maldigestion in birds. I don't know why but it could be related to stress from illness.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I sure hope they are okay and you can diagnose them and figure out a good treatment. I know how upsetting it is to now know what is going on when one is ill.  Sending you all best wishes and prayers for healthy pijies!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

TheSnipes,

Go ahead and take one of those dark poops and just smear it out on a piece of white paper to try and get a better idea of whether it's black, dark brown or dark green.

Pidgey


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> TheSnipes,
> 
> Go ahead and take one of those dark poops and just smear it out on a piece of white paper to try and get a better idea of whether it's black, dark brown or dark green.
> 
> Pidgey


OK. I';m about to leave work so I'll do that experiment when i get home. I think they are a very dark green, but will post later for sure!

Thanks, MJ, for your thoughts.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi The Snipes, all...



Could Yeast infections do this?


If the Birds had been heavily on Antibiotics, there could be some Yeast problems now...


ACV-Water might be good to try, and you would know in three or four days if it has corrected it...


Or, if you have access to a Vet or Lab for getting an examination/analysis of a poop to see if anything is conspicuous about it under the micrsoscope...


Good luck..!



Phil
l v


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Hi Phil,

I don't know if yeast could do it, but I'm going to treat for it anyway. I ordered the flock treatment medistatin today. It can not hurt them to treat for yeast, as the medication is not absorbed, and if needed it will surely help!

I also gave them ACV in the water, today. I'll keep that up through the weekend and see if anything changes.

I did as suggested earlier and collected one of the darker droppings, fresh, from the baby in that box. I smeared it out and it's pretty definitely brown. - or a very brownish green! Any thoughts? The poo in the loft varies from green to brown, which I take to be a normal variation from bird to bird. Maybe depending on what they prefer to eat!? I give them a seed and grain mixture, with fresh greens once or twice a week.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, in this case, you were specifically looking for black which might have indicated digested blood. That would signal a hemorrhage in the upper GI somewhere for whatever reason. It doesn't sound quite like that's what's going on at this point.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TheSnipes said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I don't know if yeast could do it, but I'm going to treat for it anyway. I ordered the flock treatment medistatin today. It can not hurt them to treat for yeast, as the medication is not absorbed, and if needed it will surely help!
> 
> ...



Hi The Snipes, 


Seems like the 'Baby' poosI am used to seeing tend to be Tan, Brown, dark Brown, Green-Brown, dark Green-Brown, and pretty gooey-snake forms...


This varies with their age and what the parents are feeding them too of course.


I dunno, but my friendly bet is the white covered poops may represent a Yeast problem in their system...

But of course it could be something else too..!


At least if you do the 3 to 4 Tablespoons to the Gallon of ACV Water, if this is a yeast problem, between that and the Nystatin, you will see them clear up in a few days.


Maybe make them some 'Olive Oil Glistened' Seed batches sprinkling some Pro-Biotics into the Seeds...halp them catch up on their rightful floura and fauana form the Antibiotic time just passed...


Keep us posted!


Phil
l v


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If you haven't done so, isolate the bird in question and keep it on some paper towels for some time, so the poop is more visible and can be seen better. Sometimes I will isolate, just to check the poop even when bird is feeling well, it helps also distinguising who's poops is who? ....since they don't leave their "calling card" on their own droppings. 

Have you changed their diet?


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I haven't made any changes in their diet. 

Isolating...it could be either of the two adults in that nest box, who are feeding a youngster, and that means I'd have to isolate all 3 birds and take over feeding the baby myself...I won't do that unless I absolutely have to. They do not act sick, are eating and active and alert. Something is off, to be sure.

I have been dosing the baby with nystatin, he's had his 3rd dose this morning, and last night I did the 2 adults too. I don't know if that had any effect, so fast...I would doubt it, but today I did not see that distinctive pile of weird poops, they looked fairly normal. 

I will keep them on the ACV for a few more days, how long do you think? I have been giving them probiotic powder on their food about every 3rd day. Soon I will have the medistatin powder for the feed, and I'll follow the directions for that to treat everybody. This I should have done alongside or subsequent to their antibiotic treatment, anyway.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

The problem I have with Medistatin sprinkled over food is that the powder tends to fall to the bottom and the birds don't get it. I mix it in water and syringe it down.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> The problem I have with Medistatin sprinkled over food is that the powder tends to fall to the bottom and the birds don't get it. I mix it in water and syringe it down.


$#@!^*& I am sorry to hear that! I asked Foy's about putting it in water, they said it's not as effective - but we were talking about into the _drinking_ water, not the direct syringing method.

Does it "fall to the bottom" even if you oil the seed? They told me 1 tsp. over 1/2 lb of feed coated with oil. I was going to try that, it's the same way I do the probiotic powder: open the capsule, disperse the powder in some olive oil, pour the oil onto the seeds and shake like mad.

Maybe that's not really so effective in getting it into their bodies after all?

If I have to syringe it I might as well use the Nystatin. Grrr...


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

You could try it with some oil. Wouldn't the oil tend to rot the seeds in some way though?


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Yes I think it would, if you make up a quantity. I only make up enough to feed at the one meal. 

I will have to weigh 1/2 lb of seed and see if that is more than I usually give at one feeding. If so I'll have to scale it accordingly. I know approximately how much 1 feeding is by volume, because I coat it using a quart jar and I know how far to fill it up. But, I have no idea how much that volume of seed weighs


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 


Oil does not 'rot' the Seeds...


When using Olive Oil for 'glistening' their Seeds it is very important to absolutely NOT use an old Bottle from-the-shelf...throw that away - Olive Oil Spoils in a few weeks once opened, or begings getting rancid anyway and the rancidty can make them sick or throw up, as well as robbing them ov Vitamines and Minerals which the rancidity impeded assimilations of...so, it goes bad then, once opened, unless kept closed and refrigerated.


So, get a new, small Bottle of olive Oil, and once opened, refrigerate it. It gets thick when cold, so, when you need to use it, set it under some running luke warm Tap Water for a little while, and enough will liquify for use.


Seeds getting 'oiled' should be refrigerated, covered, and kept no more than a few days at most...so make only such size batches as one will see eaten THAT day or in two days.


To dry Seeds in a Mixing Bowl...add just enough Olive Oil so that when the seeds are all well stirred, they have merely a faint 'glisten'...and this is not much, either.


To THESE then, sprinkle whatever dry powders one wishes...and stirr thoroughly again. This distributes the powders which are now sticking to the Seeds.



That is how to do it...



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

*Latest entries in the poop gallery!!*

Here are some newer pics of the poops from those birds:









only one has that 'look' to it and it's old and hardened. Others look near normal.









this is from today, *it is not nearly green as it looks in this picture, I don't know why the color comes out so bright on the screen.* it kind of got mangled removing the bedding, but that encapsulated look is gone. it seems too wet now though....









the baby's from this morning. his was like plops of soft wet mud before. this is a much nicer poop. I hope it is typical of his poops now!

I've been giving the baby nystatin twice a day, as I did see yeast deposits in his mouth. I've also been giving his parents some every night. Other than that ACV water is all they're getting in the way of medication, with every 3rd day probiotics. I wonder (dare I hope) if yeast is the source of this due to all the antibiotics they had been on?? If it gets better (or weirder!) I will share more poop pics!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

They look nice.

Reti


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