# baby pigeons,,,,,need help!!!!!!!!!



## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

This is my first post to pigeon talk...Just joined...I came into posession of 2 baby pigeons on thursday the 16th. I estimate their age just over a week. I have adult parrots so the person who gave them to me thought I would be the better to try to help them survive. I have followed all instructions I could find for feeding and care. Feeding them LaFebers baby formula with a syringe to the back of the throat. They are eating very well and their droppings look very healthy. I cannot find a difinitive answer on how much to feed them. one source said at 1 week should be eating 15cc per feeding, but my syringe is that size and that much would make them explode. I don't want to risk overfilling their crops. Please help...I want them to thrive. Also, I may have a medical problem with the one that seems to be the oldest. Overnight last night it formed a sac that encompasses part of its right leg. Just an air sack under the top layer of skin. What is that... no fluid, just air, about as big around as a quarter. Please help asap.!!!!!!!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi jbgaston, and welcome to PT. Whereabouts are you located in case 
we have someone nearby in the event that you do need meds?

Can you please take a picture of both babies and post to the forum?
How many feedings per day are you currently giving the babies?

fp


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

feeding them at least 4 times per day starting at 6-7am thru about 11pm at night. I am in nc near Gastonia and Charlotte


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are you able to post any pictures?

Regardless of any suggested amounts per feedings, you will want to go
by the size of the type of pigeon and the fullness of the crop. The
crop should not be overly full, just plump and squishy and should be
emptying between feedings. Their enthusiasm will frequently diminish
for the feeding event as the crop reaches this point. Better to be safe
and feed less w/more frequency than overfill the crop and risk slow
crop or crop stasis.

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hi jbgaston,
If the babes are just over 1 week old, you sure are right that 15ccs would make them explode, in my opinion. 
First, only feed after the crop is completely empty. Your feeding schedule will be determined by that rather than the hour of the day.
My guess is that you should be feeding between 5-10cc per feeding.It depends upon how big the bird actually is.If you are not sure, it's better to under feed and feed more often than over feed. The amount changes almost daily as the babies grow. To the formula add a scant pinch of powdered garlic for digestion and to keep the formula from souring in the crop.


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)




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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

I have pictures of the babes....also showing the air sac I was talking about, but being new to this site, I am not sure how to upload pictures. you can see them at jabbygee.blogspot.com....thank you so much for your help. these little guys just have to make it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

OK. I'll look.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here's the link highlighted so that folks can just click to view:

http://jabbygee.blogspot.com/

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The crops look way too full to me.
How are you keeping them warm? Do you have a heating pad? It should be set om low and underneath the towel. Always a towel undermeath for traction to avoid splayed leg.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are you letting the crop empty between feedings? We may have some
folks nearby, would you like some help w/this?

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

We do have a member in your area that can take the babes or help you. If you private message me your number I will pass it along.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2007)

If you say that the swelling is filled with air, there there is a burst air sac. I see the swelling but it looks dark brown. Maybe it's shadows in the picture. The air has filled up an area under the skin. These air sacs which are an important part of the respiratory system, usually close on their own but it would be good if you could vent the air to take off pressure being exerted on other organs. what you are seeing is not the air sac but the air under the skin that has escaped from the sac. If you're afraid of doing the following, then leave it alone because it may go down by itself.

Sterilize a small pin and let it cool down. Locate the skin over the air and clean it with a disinfectant. You could use a watered down iodine or Betadyne diluted 1 part to ten water. Use the pin to prick the skin. There is no need to go deep at all because the air is just under the skin. Just go under the surface of the skin. Very gently stretch the hole you made downwards and at the same time, gently put your other hand over the air bubble and press down. The air will escape through the hole you made. It might happen again or it may not. It all depends on how serious the ruptured sac is and how quickly it will heal and close. Disinfect the wound after you do this.

The crops are way too full and there is a danger of crop stretch. Don't go by the CC's marked on the syringe but look at the crop in the pictures and try to picture them about 50% smaller. Wait for the crop to go down quite a bit and then feed less. Don't worry about how many times to feed but judge when to do it when the crops have become almost empty but not quite. Be careful about warm spots in the food because they can cause crop burn. How does the food feel on your wrist, too warm or just right?

I see blisters on the bodies of both birds in picture 4 and can't figure out what they are. They're behind the legs. I'm not referring to the preen gland all the way behind and on the backs.

Make sure these birds are kept warm. It's easy for their naked bodies to get chilled.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> ............
> 
> 
> The crops are way too full and there is a danger of crop stretch. Don't go by the CC's marked on the syringe but look at the crop in the pictures and try to picture them about 50% smaller. Wait for the crop to go down quite a bit and then feed less. Don't worry about how many times to feed but judge when to do it when the crops have become almost empty but not quite. Be careful about warm spots in the food because they can cause crop burn. How does the food feel on your wrist, too warm or just right?
> ...


pp's reference to hot spots in the food can accompany heating food
in the microwave. Do not heat the formula in the microwave and do
not reuse previously unused formula. Discard what isn't used and make
fresh each time. I draw the water from the tap and make sure it is cooled
enough to feed to the birds. Also, after mixing the first time, you need to 
wait and allow it time to thicken--as it will thicken--and then add more
water to get to the desired consistancy.

If you have an old down vest for the birds, it does very well at keeping
them at just the right temp, moreso than even a heating pad which may
overheat them. Do partially cover them to help hold their body heat in.

I noticed the blistering on the legs as well, when did this appear?

fp


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2007)

fp,
In picture number 4, both birds have what looks like huge rips in the skin on the legs with black blisters inside them. Am I crazy and looking at shadows or is something there?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pp, definitely don't think you're going nuts on us here, first off. It's hard to 
get the whole picture from the pics, though. It does seem as though
there may be some swelling at the joint in the picture, I think the top 
of the foot is black in coloring and the rear toe is blackish as well.

The droppings in the first picture seem cankerish to me, what do you think?

jbgaston, I hope you take Charis up on her offer to connect you w/Littlestar:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/member.php?find=lastposter&t=21775

She is in your area and these two may need someone w/more hands on
experience w/pigeons and rescuing.

fp


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

I hope jbgaston calls me because I'm not far at all. 

Charis, It was very nice talking to on the phone. I'm waiting and hoping she calls me soon. I'm sitting by the phone .


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

as far as the air sac, it is just the skin, picks may be deceiving. clear skin over the air....I may try to relieve as instructed. no blisters on the legs or anywhere...just must be the pictures. legs are pink and most of body is pink except where it looks like feathers may begin. examined really close. they are on a heating pad and have been on low...just warm, in a plastic container with viva paper towels for a bottom and a "nest" covered in the soft paper towels around them. water for food is heated for 10 sec or so on the stovetop from bottled water from the fridge. food is lukewarm when given to them. but as far as their crops.....they have not totally emptied since Ive had them (Thursday). They are soft and mushy even when full. They are very active vocal. Whatcha thins?


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Jbgaston, If you need help please call me, I live in Charlotte, NC and it would be no problem to come to you. My phone number is 704 573-9543.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You might try more padding between the babies and the heating pad as 
in a folded towel w/the paper towels atop that. pp is correct in that if
abandoned by the parents, it's not a great sign. How were the babies
found and determined to be abandoned if that?

Hard to say if the crops aren't emptying because of a crop problem or 
overfilled and slow to empty, though overfilling can induce problems anyway.
If you have some apple cider in the house, you could syringe some ACV water
between feedings. One tablespoon per quart of warm water would most likely
be helpful. 

fp


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

I just talked to littlestar. we had a lengthy conversation and she is gonna come over tomorrow and examine my little ones. Also, there is padding between the heating pad and the papertowels... and the birds parents didnt abandon them...My friend was cleaning out attic and pulled nest from top of dormers, thinking the pigeons were all gone. the nest was pretty much destroyed from pulling on it but the 2 babies were in it unharmed. He tried for a couple days to leave them in a box where the parents could find them, but they never came back. That was last sunday and monday. I think they had just recently hatched when he found them. He wanted me to take them since I have birds...not that having grown parrots help in this situation. Mary Ann seemed to feel I was doing ok and I did puncture the air sac and it went away. Then used a little antibiotic ointment on the puncture. Baby seems fine.
Please offer any advice you know of. I want these two to make it!!!/Thanks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigeonperson, I think you're seeing the result of flash photography. It does that.

They are having a tough time keeping their legs under them though and that's a recipe for splay leg. So, you might try getting them a rag that's rough enough for them to keep their legs together. Splayed legs come from them doing the splits because the surface under them is too slick or smooth.

Pidgey


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Jbgaston, It was really nice talking to you on the phone and I will see you tomorrow.

Hi everyone, 
I'm going over tomorrow and will check them out thoroughly. I'm also going to check these little ones for cankers. I'll give her some tips also on baby pigeons. From what jbgaston told me on the phone, she's keeping warm and does have them covered. Either jbgaston or I will let you know what's what after I see them tomorrow.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If there is no blistering on the legs, which something unusual besides the position of the leg seemed to depict, then, the next issue is the position of the 
leg itself. If that position is not the result of any blistering or other discomfort,
the bird needs to get a grippable surface underneath it so that the
leg(s) doesn't become splayed. Papertowels probably won't provide the traction
necessary to keep the legs from splaying.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Joni, welcome to the forum and bless you for taking in these two little ones.

I think you're doing a really good job with them. Maybe a bit too much food so what I would recommend is to not feed them any more tonight and wait until about noon tomorrow to feed them again. Try dribbling a bit of water by their beak so it will help the crop move faster.

We've had great success in raising babies by giving them plain yogurt with their formula. It really helps their digestive system and keeps the crop from being impacted. For two babies, I would mix in about 1/2 tsp in the formula and stir well then feed them. We use a 3 or 5 cc syringe - just seems to be easier to handle for the wee ones. I wouldn't feed them more than 5-8 cc at the time for the next two days. Also, we just run really hot water from the tap to use in the formula. The formula itself will help cool it and the yogurt will too. If it gets too cool, place the container you have the formula in, in another container which has hot water in it and stir well to get the formula back to the warmer temperature. The formula should not be too thick either.

You can put them on a cloth for better foot control, or, put them in a smaller container so they'll be more confined for a few days. They will also help each other keep warm which is critical for babies. We usually lay a double ply tissue (loosely) on top of them to help keep in the warmth.

Good luck and enjoy them.

PS- I also meant to say that I'm glad the air bubble went down. We recently had a baby with two of them and it took a while for them to go down - had to prick them several times.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for helping out again Mary Ann.
Hope you can give us some good news tomorrow.

Reti


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Those are really tiny little ones! Thank you so much for caring for them. A dry washcloth under them rather than the paper towel would be much better. Splay leg is easy to prevent and very hard to repair once it happens. They have little toenails and use them to grip and move about the nest. They slip on the paper. I used paper towel when I first had baby pigeons and didn't know any different. My babies wound up with bad splay leg. The terry cloth is warmer too than paper towel as the loops trap the heat. 

You are doing a great job with them.

Margaret


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Good job, Maggie, in summing up the majority of our posts in this thread today.
Thank you.


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Reti, Your welcome. I think I'll have good news about these babies for everyone tomorrow.

When I get back I'll let y'all know about the babies.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Charis said:


> Good job, Maggie, in summing up the majority of our posts in this thread today.
> Thank you.


Why, thank you, Charis. "Attaboys" are always nice.


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

Just to keep you up to date, Littlestar(Mary Ann) came over today and examined my babies. She gave me advice about their legs(keeping them together) and about feeding and how much..( suggested change from Lefebers to Exact) and to use the plain yogurt to help with their digestion. She said over all they are in good shape and look to be 1 1/2 to 2 weeks old. I punctured the air sac yesterday and today it is back just a little bit. Will take care of that tonight. also she told me to reduce the size of their "nest" for helping their legs. She said their mouths are clear so no canker problems. Its great to know they are in good health. If you have any more advice for me, please do not hesitate to offer it. I need all the help I can get. I just want them to grow up and be healthy little guys. Thank you so much. I tried all over to get help and thanks to you guys I feel more confident to raise these babies. And special thanks to Littlestar for taking time out of your busy schedule to help a new pigeon mom in need!!!!


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

*Update on the babies*

I just got back. Those baby pigeons are the cutest, sweetest little baby and very active, I did get to hold them. I looked the babies over and these little babies are very healthy. The crops looked good, but I asked her to change them over to the Kaytee exact handfeeding instead of what she is using. I also redid the nest for Jbgaston making it smaller. I do have concerns about the legs being splayed which we both talked about and was the other reason I made the nest smaller. In a couple days or so she's going to let me know how the legs are and if there is no change, I will go back and get the legs taken care of, but remember these are two very active babies and that's why I told her to keep me informed. Now the air bubble, it's back and I think it's going to a few or more times before it's gone. 

Jbgaston I must say is doing really good in caring for these two. I have no worry about these little ones not growing up because she is doing an excellent job with them. She is also thinking of keeping them and raising them. I told her I saw no problem with that and that they make beautiful pet birds. She also knows that I not far from her if she needs help at anytime. When they get older I can and ready to eat on their own I can help her out and let her know what food to buy for them and anything else she needs to know. 

I also want to say she is sweet, wonderful and a very caring lady. And that these babies weren't abandoned by the parents because there was something wrong because they man who pulled the nest down and didn't know there were babies in it told me the story. The hole were the parents would go in was block off so the parents couldn't get back in, so he tried to put them where the parents could find them, but the parents didn't go to where he put them. If he had known there were still babies in that nest he would of left it alone until they were old enough to leave the nest, he felt really bad.

If there is something else you want to know that I maybe left out, please ask me.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually, there really isn't any need to switch from Lefeber's to Kaytee as far
as I know, they are both very good baby bird formula's and Lefeber's is
thought by some to be better than Kaytee. It may just amount to personal
preference. If they are already aclimated to Lefeber's, why do the whole diet
switch thing w/the introduction of half and half mixes and then wean off 
the Lefeber's? Seems unnecessary, jmo.

A Turkish towel at the bottom of the nest for gripping/traction, keeping an
eye on the air accumulation, using hot tap water for mixing the formula and
tempering the solution again after it has thickened to get it to the correct
consistency, and using the feel of the crop itself as the 'meter' for guaging
how much to feed the babies should really make a difference for these
babies. If the crops continue to seem to empty slowly after the adjustment
in the amount of food delivered to the crop has been made, then give
them the ACV water between feedings. If you are crop feeding, you can
also give the ACV water in the same fashion.

I'm glad that all is well and that you will also be keeping these two cuties 
around, I'm sure they are going to see you as their birdmom!

fp


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Fp, I wasn't sure about Lefeber being I have always used only the Kaytee Exact. I talked to Joni and she's going to keep them on the Lefeber instead of switching them.


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

Thanks for the info. I am glad not to have to change formula since they are used to the Lefebers. I will keep everyone posted as to the progress of the babies. Thanks again so much for the help


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's understandable that if uncertain of Lefeber's, one would do a 
"pre-emptive" strike where potential problems are concerned.  

I'm so glad that you are closeby and able to give a hand as needed, very
fortunate for jbgaston to have soemone knowledgable like yourself as
a resource. Thanks for taking the time from your busy schedule to 
ensure the good health of these babies, Maryann.

fp


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Fp, Your welcome and thank you for letting me know about Lefeber, so now I know this one can be used also. I'm never to busy to help someone out, LOL, ask my husband and my kids about all the little journeys I took them on. I'm looking forward to pictures of these little ones as they grow. I know they have a wonderful and caring mom who wants to do everything right for them. 

Joni, I forget to tell you your little ones need names  .


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Joni and Maryann, what a great update. I'm really happy these babies are doing so well.

We have used Lefeber's in the past, mostly in a formula for songbirds as I think this is the company that makes a formula without starch which can be tolerated by little wrens. We sometimes used it in feeding baby pigeons and it worked fine. Like Maryann, I'm partial to Exact but Lefeber's has a fine reputation.

About the feet. Personally, for the little ones, we primarily use paper towels with tissue on top of that - at least while they are still "nekkid" and never had a problem with splay legs. I think the key is to have a container just big enough for the two babies because right now they're not real active and their feet will stay aligned ok. We use cloth only after they get a little older and even then you have to watch carefully that their nails don't get tangled in the cloth strands.

Maryann, you are a sweetheart.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WHAT A GREAT AND HEARTWARMING UPDATE!! WELL DONE, WELL DONE!

I was wondering how the visit went and how the little ones are doing. 

Yes, Joni, we look forward to names. Since you won't know for quite awhile which is which, you can always choose names that are unisex. OR, whatever names "come" to you - doesn't matter if male or female. We have members who have male names for their hens. We just have to remember that they are hens!   

GREAT TEAMWORK! Squeaks and I will look forward to many happy updates! A VERY SPECIAL TIP OF THE HAT AND HUGS TO MARYANN!!

Sending hugs and scritches galore!

Shi & Squeaks


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Thank you Maggie and Shi.


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

*All is well*

Just want everyone to know the babies are doing well. Eating good. Very active. I made the nest smaller and using wash cloths to sit on. They are keeping their legs under them better now. The oldest one is beginning to have the feather shafts come out on his wings and a couple places on his body. This weekend I will take some pictures for all to see. Don't have names yet. I want somethin really cute for these cuties. thanks, Joni


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Really good news.
Appreciate the update.


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## jbgaston (Aug 18, 2007)

*Babies Doing Great*

I just wanted to let everyone know how good the babies are doing...they are a joy to watch and take care of. I have pictures in the link below. The first ones are 1 week ago and the some pictures of the rest of my family...

http://picasaweb.google.com/jabgaston/MyBirdFamily02

By the way, Their names are Flapper and Cuddles(from the pictures you can tell who is Flapper)
I do have a question or two, if anyone can help me.

1) They are about 4 weeks old. When do I introduce seed? They are already starting to peck at things.

2) When do their tweets begin to change to adult sounds? The reason for asking is the younger of the 2 started pecking first and now its sounds seem to be changing a little...just barely noticable. 

I just want to make sure I do everything right for these two. We are really attached to them and couldn't bare causing them any problems.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Those are darling baby pigeons, and your other birds are lovely too! 4 weeks old is plenty old enough to start getting them interested in seed. Start with smaller seeds such as parakeet, canary, or finch seed and gradually work up to the larger seeds that are in pigeon mix or wild bird seed mix.

Their voices will really begin to change in the next week or two .. they are just so cute and funny at that stage.

Continued good luck with the little ones!

Terry


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