# Alea's New Thread & Pic



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi All,

The previous thread is getting quite long so am starting a new one for Alea along with a picture showing the drastic difference in Ali and Bert.

Please see: http://www.rims.net/alea5x.jpg 

Please all, if you have any ideas what to do to help Ali, let's be seeing them posted.

Terry


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
Can't stop to say much right now, but have sent Terry a piccy of a pair I had - one of whom had paratyphoid and you will see that your birds are not alone. 
I'll catch up with you later, hopefully when Terry has been able to make the picture available.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea and all,

Helen sent this picture of a paratyphoid baby she raised. It tells pretty much the same story as Ali and Bert.

http://www.rims.net/piedyoomi.jpg 


Terry


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 21, 2004).]


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Thanks Terry
These two are exactly the same age - seems unbelievable but that is what paratyphoid does to baby pigeons. It's a horrid thing to have to watch.
Actually I've had so many in and seen so many in my loft before I sussed out what it was and how to deal with it, that I can spot these babies when they hatch. Because of this I can start treatment from day one and they never get as bad as that.

[This message has been edited by Nooti (edited February 21, 2004).]


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It's so sad! Did yours pull through, Helen?

Cynthia


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

It's over three years ago Cynthia but I think he was the first one I pulled through.


----------



## alea2 (Feb 20, 2004)

Well, thank you all for your kind words and encouragement. Sorry if I sounded a bit hysterical last time I posted. Today, to my great suprise I was able to feed almost 15cc. at both feedings so far. I think if this slight progress continues we may be out of the woods. The crop slowness did seem to be worsening for a day or 2, but today it seems better, so I'm happy. I have been reading over the posts, and seen the pic of Helens babies,... that sure is the same story as with my birds. I just have one question... Helen, in the previous thread I think you said Ali should be getting about 120cc. of feed per day, but he is so small, I know that his crop can only hold 15-20cc max. Can that be right? I also remember feeding about 15cc. 3x per day to Bert when he was that small, and up until I weaned him. 120cc. just seems a huge amount to me. Is that number representative of what they eat when being handfed, or when self-feeding at 6 weeks??? 
I have added a good multivitamin, so maybe that is helping too. It specifically says to give an increased dosage to birds with weakened immune systems, so that is what I've been doing. Still open to suggestions... still hanging in there.
Thanks again.
Alea

[This message has been edited by alea2 (edited February 21, 2004).]


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hey Alea! I'm so glad Ali (and you) have had a pretty good day! As to the amount of formula you can feed .. it's just pretty much what you are able to get in without "overflow". I think the 120 ml Helen has mentioned is for a heathly baby well on the way to being grown and is probably being fed at 40 ml three times per day. I think you have a really good handle on how much Ali can take at one feeding and a good sense of when there seems to be trouble. I think Ali will be fine if you just keep going as you have been.

I was, however, thinking the Ali situation over and wondering if we might gain some ground by changing to a different base food .. say game bird starter which is much higher in protein than the Exact. Or perhaps adding some human meat based babyfood and/or some hard boiled egg yolk to the formula. Let's see what Helen and the other members think about these ideas. 

Terry

PS: Please thank your friend for taking the pictures. They are a great help in really knowing what's going on.


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 21, 2004).]


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

I raised two birds who were orphaned at about 9 days old. One was a little behind his brother, but then he became way behind and it killed me to watch that little guy. I did not know at the time what it was and I thought maybe he just isn't good at metabolizing protien so I spiked his formula with a pinch of mashed sardines and rarely some egg. He made it. My knowledge is limited but one vote for a wee bit of protein.


----------



## alea2 (Feb 20, 2004)

Hello all.
Terry, I like the idea of increasing protein. A couple of times I put a few pieces of soaked puppy chow into the syringe, and then squirted that into the mixed formula, adding more water as needed. I didn't do it again after the crop slowness seemed to be returning, though. I got a little gun shy, I guess. I remember someone recommended a recipe of soaked dog food and hard boiled egg yolk, mixed with water to fatten up a baby. I may just try that right now, as I am about to give the last feeding. If anyone has any other ideas, please share. 
Thanks,
Alea


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
Terry's right, in a healthy baby of that size he would be getting 120mls per day comprising 3 x 40ml feeds. When I said that it was to give you an idea of the volume of nutritional requirements at that size - not age, so you would then realise why he looks like a caricature instead of a pigeon!
Extra protien is a good idea - and egg yolk is probably the best as it will mush up and go through a syringe and tube very easily.
Here's hoping things improve. Keep up the Baytril, it's his only chance.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Alea,

You are doing an excellent job!

I am poking my nose in here just in case Helen can't come on line and am open to correction:

The 120 cc a day is Helen's recommendation for a 30 day old pigeon to keep alive and gain weight, but crop size comes into it too! You can't feed more that the crop will take or than the pigeon will digest, so take it slowly, ensure that the crop never gets overfilled and that it emptied between feeds. 

I once had a baby wood pigeon that toook 40 cc per feed, so when I got another in I fed it exactly the same amount. But when I looked into its mouth I could see the fluid level at the back of the throat, so I realised I had overdone it! Of course I went into a blind panic wondering what on earth I could do. Fortunately I am in the UK and was able to telephone Helen immediately, she explained that the second pigeon had tensed its crop up so it contracted, and that 20cc would have been the correct amount in that case. She also told me that as the pigeon was not distressed or panting to leave it as it was and the formula would work its way down, which it did.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

BTW when I said "baby woodpigeon" I meant an adult sized fledgling!

Cynthia


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello everyone.
I understand what you mean, (Cynthia) but unfortunately, the crop doesn't seem to completely empty at all. It helps when I add water a few hours after the last feeding,... then it will usually be empty by morning. However, between morning and noon, and noon and evening, it always seems to go down just enough to take about 10 cc.'s more. Still, I don't think the crop capacity is much more than 15 ml anyway, so I've been hoping that it mostly emptying was close enough.
Do you think I should switch to an 8 hour cycle instead of letting 12 hours elapse during the night? I don't see it making a whole lot of difference, but I'd appreciate other opinions.
Well, here's my new formula, and I am open to suggestions, of course.

1/2 tbspoon baby bird formula powder
8 pieces soaked puppy chow (mashed)
1/4 of an egg yolk (mashed)
water as needed
1/4 tspoon vitamin supplement

This recipe makes up about double what I need, but I mix it up that way for ease of measurement and sucking into the syringe. (So, he is only getting about half that extra protein, vitamins, etc.)
I started off with even less puppy chow/egg yolk,.. just to test the waters, but he seemed to be no worse, so I increased it slightly. 
Thanks to everyone who has encouraged me, and shared their experiences and knowledge. I have been frustrated lately, but reading all of your posts really helps!
Alea


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Your recipe looks pretty good to me when given at half of the total. I hope that little Ali starts to put on some weight with this. Hopefully others will be along shortly to offer their input.

You have done such a wonderful job with Ali and Bert! If I could give you a medal, I would .. hmmmmm who is your commanding officer .. maybe that could happen <LOL>!

Terry


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
If the crop is emptying during the night then that's ok. It should empty once every 24 hours.
Did I read you right when you said you leave it 12 hours overnight? If that's right I think that's a little long. Just wondered if you can sneak in an extra feed.
Just a thought - what's Complan like? Any good? Terry?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Would an additional meal of chicken baby food be advisable? As far as I know that is easily digested.

Cynthia


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Helen,

I don't think we have Complan here in the U.S. Perhaps Cream of Wheat, grits, or one of the baby cereals would be close.

Terry


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Ah well, I thought I'd heard someone from the States mention Complan before, so I thought maybe you had it. It's a liquid diet designed for people who have been really ill and haven't got their appetite back properly - I think. But it is highly nutritious.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry, I am the one that keeps mentioning Complan. They donate their product to the RSPCA who use it for baby pigeons.

Cynthia


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

We do have a number of liquid nutrition products such as Ensure but I'd have to check to see what's in them .. suspect quite a bit of lactose for one thing.

Terry


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am pretty certain that we established that Complan had lactose in it. The fact that the RSPCA uses a product no longer impresses me. It was that organisation that siad "thanks to your human interference that bird will die" when I picked up a squab that had fallen from the nest and then advised me to feed it peanuts with tweezers!









Cynthia


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello again!
Some good news to report,.... Ali weighed in this morning at about 100g.! I was frustrated for awhile,.. after weighing him in for 10 days or so and not noticing any gain at all. I gave up for awhile but decided to weigh him this morning before feeding. The last time I weighed him he was still about 70g. and that was the under 2 weeks ago....100g.... so yay! Progress, at last. I am almost afraid to get happy... the last time I thought everything was good it seemed to slow a little again. What a let down that was,.. but I am doing cart wheels over here despite myself!
Something kind of odd, though... Bert doesn't seem to want to sleep in the nest-box with him at night any more. Past 2 nights, I put him in there and he jumped/flew right back out. He seems to want to stay in the cage? I'm not going to worry about it too much... just makes me kind of sad for the little guy, who is sleeping alone.
Bert is a character. She flies right to me,.. either landing on my head or my arm. Her favorite trick is to hang out on my shoulder and try to pull my earrings out. LOL!!!
Anyway, all seems to be going good. 
And yes, Helen, I will certainly try sneaking in another feed in the night,... I was just concerned before because the crop never seemed to empty completely. I would normally just give a little more water at 9 or 10. The water really seems to be the key, because when I would find him with alot of food still in his crop from the previous feeding, it would be much thicker, and doughy like you said. He does pass quite a bit of water,.. but it still seems to work.
Thanks all!!!
Alea


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Oh one more thing....
Chicken baby food??? Thoughts?
Maybe for that extra feed in the night? I would just like to see the crop completely empty once in 24 hours, as was said. Would this be more easily digested than my recipe??


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hi Alea,

Congratulations on getting Ali to the 100 gram weight! With such a rocky start, that's wonderful!

------------------
Terri B


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea, Ali, and Bert!

Great news about the weight gain for Ali! Sounds like Bert is getting to be a grown up bird .. so precious the s/he flies to you and does your ears for you.

I don't think it would hurt the progress to go ahead and try the human baby food for the last feeding. I seem to remember an old post stating that beef based was better than chicken based baby food .. will have to see if I can find that one and bump it up. At any rate the baby food is definitely worth a try whether chicken or otherwise.

Terry


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

I know... Bert also enjoys bird "showers" as opposed to bird "baths",... s/he is always jumping into the sink when I'm rinsing the dishes... cracks me up. 
You might think I'm crazy, but I just bought a small book on potty training birds. I think in general they intended it to be for 'hard' or 'hook' beak type birds, which are more commonly kept as pets... but I know pigeons are pretty smart...so I figured, why not? I know Bert knows when I am talking to her, and I think it could work.
I am pretty busy at work right now, so I may have to wait a couple of weeks to start 'training', but that's okay. She still hasn't even really explored every room in the apartment. I just can't help but think it would be so cool to let her out when I'm home and not have to chase her around and clean up poop. Feel free to tell me I'm nuts, but when I have the time, I'm probably going to give a shot anyway. =0)


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
I say a muted HOORAY and hope it continues. If you weigh him say twice a week hopefully you will continue to see improvements. Bert sounds like he/she is growing up. Things are not looking too bad. I'm so glad. Keep it up and keep us posted.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is wonderful and very welcome news, Alea! Well done!!!

The drink of water last thing is a tip worth remembering.

Terry's Piu Piu was trained to poop in a single place. With three birds loose in one room at the moment I can see that there would be great advantages in training a pigeon to be neat. At the moment I have settled for covering the whole floor area with sheets and towels as it is a carpeted room. So PLEASE let us know how successful you are.

Cynthia


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

I also do the carpet and sheet routine but there are at least two factors that indicate some control if one had the patience: 1) pet birds of other species (which are after all just another previously wild bird) are routinely taught to poop on demand in the designated spot, and 2) my hen will hold it in for up to 10 hours when she is on the eggs--and when she gets up she goes to one of just two spots and unloads up to 50cc's!! Hens demonstrate both the control and location preference that just needs to be cued.


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

I think it's definitely worth trying. I also think if I can get her "potty-trained" chances are good that little Ali might catch on pretty quick, too. 
All is well BTW,.. I have added that night time feeding in, so now I am feeding every 6 hours. It seems to be going pretty good! I will be back on if there's any news.
Alea


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello all. I haven't been on here in awhile because I have family in town, and am taking a short vacation. I just wanted to put up a quick note before the weekend... 
Well, Ali is at about 150 grams right now. I am able to feed him quite a bit more than before... always 15-20 cc., and at 4 times a day, that's much better. I am wondering if maybe I can start thinking about taking him off Baytril??? (Helen,... thoughts?)
I am very scared to try because he went downhill so fast the first time, but he still has hardly any feathers, and his feet, beak, etc. are so small... I remember you saying that the Baytril inhibits bone and feather growth, so I was wondering if I dare try to take him off of it. How long did you have the ones that you managed to pull through on Baytril? I appreciate your advice.
Alea


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea! Glad to hear from you with an update on little Ali. It sounds like he/you are doing well. Hopefully Helen will be along shortly with the definitive answer as to whether to take him off the Baytril or not. 

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Helen is temporarily unable to post here at pigeons.com but sent the following to me to post here for you.
--------------------------------------------
Can you please tell Alea Bl*&dy well done, from me. But tell her not to start weaning off Baytril until she has a proper avian probiotic ready to take over. Yoghurt is no good. It must be an avian probiotic - dose doesn't matter within reason. All those weeks on Baytril will mean her baby has a completely sterile gut and that's scary. If she doesn't start with probiotics then she'll have a dead baby within a week or so. The gut lining needs a thick layer of good bacteria covering it in order to stop any nasties gaining a foothold. Can you get any to her at all? Start probiotics 12 hours after last dose of Baytril and give a good dose every 24 hours for at least a week. 10 days is better.


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks so much for the info. I have what I think is a good avian probiotic at home,.. something -bacillius??? It's something like that, anyway. But now for my next question; 

How should I wean him off the antibiotics? 
I wondered about weaning before,... the first time I had him on Baytril, I stopped it completely after one week, and of course he went downhill fast... 
I actually sort of started already, so tell me how this sounds:
I had him on about 1.2 cc. of Baytril since the time I thought he was doing poorly again. In the past 2 days I have reduced it to just 1 cc.,.... the dose that I started him on originally. Does a reduction of 1/10 of a cc per day seem appropriate? Or should I wean him faster than that? .2 cc. less per day? More?
I should also add that he is trying to pick seed...(the ones that Bert scatters on to my kitchen floor.) I don't know if I should actively try to prevent this or not. They are comparable in size now, but he is still mostly unfeathered. 
Once again, I appreciate your help.
Alea


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I believe that Helen has previously posted that probiotics cannot be given at the same time as any antibiotics. The antibiotics would be killing off the "good" gut bacteria we are trying to grow with the probiotics just as the antibiotics kill off the "bad" bacteria. Thus, you would need to stop the antibiotics completely and start Ali on probiotics.

I realize this is a scary proposition based upon the previous attempt to stop the Baytril. Still, you are a good and very observant bird Mom and will know right away if stopping the antibiotics is causing a problem again.

I think it is fine to let Ali peck at and eat seeds. I would also offer him some of the additional food being added to the formula in "peckable" state for a bit and see if he will eat a variety of foods for you. 

Hopefully others will be along shortly with additional information.

Terry


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

I can concur on Terry's points. Probiotics and grit are not given with antibiotics since part of the antibiotic bacteria killing power is wasted killing the good bacteria. Also, antibiotics are not phased in and out I don't believe. You run them without missing for the full course of treatment and then cease entirely. After the antibiotics you want to temporally introduce a very rich diet that is heavy on good fats (relative to pigeons), protein, probiotics, vitamins and minerals. When to make the transition may be a tough call. If the youngster has a consistently stable energy level without symptoms, you have more to lose by staying on the meds. There is limit to how much you can "catch up" on growth. There is a time window for growth that will close at some point. Helen?


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thank you, both. Very good points,... especially about "catching up" on growth. I will stop today and see what happens. 
It certainly is dicey trying to figure out when to stop the antibiotics, but it's obvious that he isn't "hungry" all the time anymore... He's put on a lot of weight and has even adopted some adult-like "mannerisms". (Head bobbing and pecking a lot, not begging quite as much, etc.) Speaking of adult-like,...something odd... this morning he resisted my feeding him somewhat. Normally as soon as I touch his beak he opens up, but not today. He actually tried to shrink away from it. He still had a half full crop from the night-feeding, so I wasn't overly concerned, but normally he just begs and begs and you could feed him to overflow. I got 10 cc.'s in him (which filled him pretty well) and went to work. Any thoughts on that?
I leave him and Bert to hang out in the kitchen each night for at least a couple of hours now. I'm sure his body temp is stable, so there's really no need to leave him in the nest-box constantly, is there?
He looks so funny,... like a vulture. His head is still bald but his neck is longer and his loosely feathered body is much bigger. Too cute. I hope I can stop the Baytril so he gets some more feathers, though!!
Thanks again.
Alea


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Babies are programmed to beg--they are often competing with a sibling and nature is not always generous enough to let them both live. When they get a few weeks and some size I notice they are not happy to be hand fed, even when they are not able to handle seed on their own. They will decrease consumption--amount and frequency--to the adult level which is a maintenance diet as opposed to the heavy building diet of the baby. Ideally your bird has a good pigeon seed mix to practice on and you can try offering leafy greens in your hand. At some point you will only hand feed special nutrients/vitamins that may be necessary for complete development. I hope he is ready for the transition.


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thank you.
That is good news as far as I am concerned. I made up for this mornings lack with nearly 20 cc.'s at lunch time. I will start leaving him seed and see how much of that he consumes as well. Will keep you all posted.
Alea


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

One more thing,... leafy greens??? I remember reading somewhere that spinach is good, but not lettuce. Any other tips on this? Thanks again!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Alea,

I give my birds curly Kale (which is the best greens for pigeons), spinach and lettuce. They love the spinach and lettuce!

They have to acquire the taste for the curly kale. 

You can offer it to Bert. He will thrash it about, and throw it around like a football, I love watching my flock eating it. 

Nutritionally, the kale would be best for Ali. He or she will have to like it, if you put it in a blender and feed it to him (or her)LOL

This should be given sparingly, as an addition to the diet, not main dish.

Treesa


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Alea,

I did answer, but I don't know where the post went...strange, is there a page 3?

Anyway,
I give my flock spinach, curly kale, and lettuce. Curly kale is most nutritious, but they have to acquire a taste for it.

You can offer it to Bert. You will see him thrashing it about and throwing it around like a football! I love to watch my pigeons eating it.

My females have been really eating the spinach, I guess they like the extra calcium, and vita c in it! 

The curly Kale would be best for Ali, if you put it in a blender, she would have to eat it huh?

Remember to use it sparingly, it should not be part of the main diet.

Treesa


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks, Treesa.
(BTW, I have had a similar problem in the past with the page not updating my post right away.)
If you can believe it, I weighed Ali this morning and he is up to 230 grams!!! WOO HOO!! I can not believe how fast he is gaining weight now. He is eating a bit of seed on his own, but I am still feeding him roughly 20cc. 4x per day. It is amazing. I stopped the Baytril and started probiotics the night before last, and he continues to look well. YAY!
I am still feeding what I think is a very high fat/protein diet. Soaked puppy chow, hard boiled egg yolk, and formula in fairly equal parts. (Plus vitamins and probiotics, and a tiny bit of seed)So I am grateful for any advice on how to give more variety for good nutrition. Thanks again!!!
Alea


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Now I can't see my last post. Shoot. Guess I'll try again in a few minutes.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Alea,

I have the same problem with posts not appearing! You can tell they are in the pipeline when the original thread is bumped up.

I just wanted to say that your dedication to Ali has been an inspiration.

My Beaky (a juvenile I found ages ago with an overgrown beak) only weighs 290...not far for Ali to go now!

Cynthia


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks for the kind words. All of you who reply to me are awesome!! I certainly couldn't have done it alone!
He still has much smaller feet, beak, and not much feathers,... but I think his actual body mass is very close to Berts. I'm happy with that right now.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea, Ali, and Bert! What great news, Alea! I am so happy for you and your little (well not so little anymore) ones! I agree that you and little Ali have been a wonderful inspiration for us all. You are to be commended on the wonderful care you have given and the extreme efforts you have made!

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm going to close this topic and start a new one as we are again having some technical difficulties.

Terry


----------

