# Sudden Mite Problem with rescued pigeon - help needed



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Hello and thank you in advance to anyone who is able to respond with help! I rescued a pigeon last winter. He is 6 months old now and while he spends every morning and afternoon with the wild city flocks, he continues to come home by sunset every day and stays/sleeps with me. As summer is approaching, I noticed he has been bringing in mites which have been biting me occasionally. Not sure if he's had them all these past 6 months, but I never experienced being bitten or seeing them on my bed up until now. He used to be able to hop around and sleep with and ON me, without any issues. Does anyone have a bird who stays both indoors and outdoors? How can the mite problem be treated if they have daily exposure to new ones from wild birds? Also, worried that the mites have/will infest my beddings, carpets and furniture. Some articles say this is not possible, while others claim it is highly likely and horrific. Anyone have similar experience who can shed light on what to do to treat both my bird and my home under the circumstances? I miss being able to have my bird fly and hop around my home freely without any mite issues. Wondering why this has suddenly become a problem, considering I never experienced it from December till now. Thank you so much in advance, again!


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Given the situation, perhaps try the Ivermectin medications that are supposed to repel bugs for four to six weeks.

Here is a link to an example.









#2612 DAC ENDECTO LICE/MITES/WORM DROPS


DAC Endecto Drops for lice, mites and worms




foyspetsupplies.com






Inside your home you could use boric acid powder (not toxic to birds, is toxic to mammals if ingested) on the floor around the walls. Also, if you are into growing indoor plants, try Thyme.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Given the situation, perhaps try the Ivermectin medications that are supposed to repel bugs for four to six weeks.
> 
> Here is a link to an example.
> 
> ...





Doves Witness said:


> Given the situation, perhaps try the Ivermectin medications that are supposed to repel bugs for four to six weeks.
> 
> Here is a link to an example.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to respond so kindly, Doves Witness! My pigeon is in fact already being treated with Ivermectin Spot-on Drops. The brand is Harkers Harkamectin. Unfortunately, it has not helped eliminate the external parasites, most likely because he brings in new batches every day. I'm sure it's helped to some degree with mites and lice that have fed blood from him. Alas, I'm finding it more and more difficult not worrying about him, as well as my home. I've continued to find bites on my skin at least once a day. Will continue to vacuum indoors and use boric acid or permethrin spray to hopefully be rid of any that have transfered inside. I am tempted to stop my pigeon from sleeping indoors now, as Summer has only just begun, and it will be a long, paranoid, anxiety-ridden season for me, if I'm to keep inspecting every inch of my home and my skin every moment of every day. 😔 I always thought by this age, he would choose to leave of his own accord. I believe he has bonded with me and has seen me as both a mom and a mate. Will pray for enlightenment as to what to do. Thank you, again, for your kind suggestions!


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

I repeatedly bring home ill or injured feral pigeons, along with mites and pigeon flies, but not every day. I do take the _formerly feral_ pigeon who lives with me, Sky, to the park to see her flock routinely, since she can't fly due to a damaged wing.

So far I haven't encountered pigeon lice or ticks in the area, just mites and pigeon flies, and they have been on every single bird that I've brought home. Boric acid in bathwater routinely gets rid of bugs from the birds, and the birds are usually happy to bathe themselves. Every day, Sky has a pie-pan of water to bathe in, but I only add boric acid a few days a week. So far that has kept her bug-free continuously since shortly after she arrived here.

When I first brought her home, she had all kinds of problems, including mites. I bathed her once, then later I noticed a tiny little red or brown spot moving on the bright-white floor of her basket -- she still had mites. I gave her a second bath in water with boric acid, and sprinkled shredded tobacco in and around her basket. Next I sprinkled boric acid powder around the floors, then removed it a couple of days later with a HEPA filter vacuum cleaner. That was the end of the mites for her.

Now when I bring other birds home, they get a bath with boric acid and water, then I sprinkle their box or preferred sleeping area with shredded tobacco right off the bat. So far no problems with new infestations at all. As far as I can tell, tobacco is the one and only plant that actually repels the mites from an _*area*_. Perhaps give tobacco (leaves or shredded) a try specifically on furniture you use (under bed mattress, couch cushions, etc.) to keep the mites away from _you_. Then a sprinkling of boric acid on the floor, and vacuum it up later, about once a week?




Amazon.com











Fronto Leaf – Leaf Express


Buy Fronto Leaf From leafexpress.us




leafexpress.us


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> I repeatedly bring home ill or injured feral pigeons, along with mites and pigeon flies, but not every day. I do take the _formerly feral_ pigeon who lives with me, Sky, to the park to see her flock routinely, since she can't fly due to a damaged wing.
> 
> So far I haven't encountered pigeon lice or ticks in the area, just mites and pigeon flies, and they have been on every single bird that I've brought home. Boric acid in bathwater routinely gets rid of bugs from the birds, and the birds are usually happy to bathe themselves. Every day, Sky has a pie-pan of water to bathe in, but I only add boric acid a few days a week. So far that has kept her bug-free continuously since shortly after she arrived here.
> 
> ...


Thank you again wholeheartedly for taking the time to lend such thorough advice, Doves Witness! At the moment, as of 2 days ago, I started using Diatomaceous Earth (DE) powder and sprinkling it in the surrounding areas of where Baby (my pigeon) sleeps. He is very unusual in that he refuses to sleep in bird beds, boxes or baskets. He likes to fly around the apartment and perch/preen on different surfaces, which is how I think the mites started finding their way onto my bed and furniture. He was sleeping at the foot of my bed every single night for the past 6 months since I rescued him. Again, I never once saw a mite in my 6 months of raising him, nor had a bite on myself, till just the last week of May. I woke up with my whole right chest and shoulder area covered in about 20 bite marks. After vacuuming and washing and drying my beddings with the hottest heat possible, the bites on me started being only 1 to 3 a day. I've been seeing the occasional mite, sometimes grey/black, sometimes red, crawling on my night table or bedsheet. Baby has been itching tirelessly through the night, and whenever he does, dander, feathers and mites get lodged from his body. They often land on the paper towels I spread around his sleeping area, which I now started coating with DE as well. I'm afraid of using boric acid because it's known to be more toxic to animals when ingested and Baby is constantly chewing on specks from the floor... but using it in bath water sounds worth a try. Could you kindly share with me the boric acid to water ratio used when bathing your birds? I tried giving Baby a bath 2 days ago, but he wasn't keen on getting into the dish as it was not familiar to him (bathing). Would it be okay to "force" him to take a bath the first time? Do you fully submerge your birds up to the neck or just leave an inch of water in a dish and have them bathe themselves on their bottom sides? 

Considering you've had mites on birds you've brought home as well, have you ever experienced them attempting to infest your home, upholstery and belongings? I am only living in a rented studio apartment with a strict no pets policy, so I am scared of things getting so bad that an exterminator will have to come. I wouldn't want things to escalate to that level, where my landlord will reprimand me, etc. I also suffer from extremely sensitive skin and eczema, which is why the occasional bites freak me out terribly.  A bird rescuer on IG who keeps 40 pigeons in her home has told me bird mites cannot and will not thrive in homes and furnitures. But her birds do not fly with other birds daily and are confined to indoors. I'm not sure whom to believe regarding infestations. The Internet is such a vast platform, and information is pretty much 50-50 when it comes to that topic. Thank you again with so much Love!


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

I leave a pie-pan of water out for the bird here to bathe in every day, in the same spot. Two days per week I add one teaspoon boric acid per quart of water. Some days the bird here bathes herself but not every day (which is why I set the pan out every day because I can't predict when she will want a bath.) You might be able to get yours to bathe in the pan by wiggling your fingers in the water while he is watching. I'd try that first before forcibly bathing the bird or he might start avoiding you which would be a shame since you two are as close as family!

My girlfriend tells me if any bugs bite her, and I can tell when bugs are bothering any of the birds, but the bugs don't seem to like me at all, if they've ever bitten me, I didn't notice. The boric acid around the floor followed by vacuuming later, reliably ends the problem here. Tobacco in the bird's nest stops the appearances of moving mites very quickly, less than a day, but it is only repelling them, not killing them. The small quantity of boric acid I use in bathwater isn't toxic to birds but is toxic to mammals if they consume enough of it.

"*Boric acid is practically non-toxic to **birds*. It is slightly toxic to practically non-toxic to freshwater fish. Boric acid is practically non-toxic to frogs and toads and aquatic life, such as waterfleas. The U.S. EPA concluded that boric acid is relatively nontoxic to bees."


Boric Acid General Fact Sheet



More details about toxicity to birds...

"*Birds*

Studies in both bobwhite quail (_Colinus virginianus_) and Mallard ducks (_Anas platyrhynchos_) have indicated that *boric acid is very low in toxicity to birds*.5
The acute LD50 (lethal dose to 50% of test subjects) for bobwhite quail exposed to boric acid is greater than 2510 mg/kg. The *dietary* LC50 (lethal concentration to 50% of test subjects) for boric acid in the feed of bobwhite quail was found to be greater than 10,000 ppm.5
*Dietary* intake of boric acid may adversely affect the reproduction and development of birds. Mallards exposed to 30 mg boron/kg body weight (as boric acid) had ducklings with reduced growth rates. Higher concentrations in the range of 100-400 mg boron/kg body weight resulted in increased duckling mortality, altered behavior, and decreased growth and hatching success.47,48"



Boric Acid Technical Fact Sheet



^ The "dietary" studies involved feeding birds a pellet diet with boric acid already in the pellets. In short, they gave the birds no choice and forced them to *eat* boric acid in every meal, every day, for weeks in some studies, and for months in others. Even so, it didn't kill the birds. If the boric acid had not been mixed into the pellets, I bet that not one bird would have eaten a dose high enough to cause any health problems at all. A bird drinking a bit of boric acid bathwater once in awhile is not in danger of health problems because of it, but don't add boric acid to the bird's regular supply of drinking water.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> I leave a pie-pan of water out for the bird here to bathe in every day, in the same spot. Two days per week I add one teaspoon boric acid per quart of water. Some days the bird here bathes herself but not every day (which is why I set the pan out every day because I can't predict when she will want a bath.) You might be able to get yours to bathe in the pan by wiggling your fingers in the water while he is watching. I'd try that first before forcibly bathing the bird or he might start avoiding you which would be a shame since you two are as close as family!
> 
> My girlfriend tells me if any bugs bite her, and I can tell when bugs are bothering any of the birds, but the bugs don't seem to like me at all, if they've ever bitten me, I didn't notice. The boric acid around the floor followed by vacuuming later, reliably ends the problem here. Tobacco in the bird's nest stops the appearances of moving mites very quickly, less than a day, but it is only repelling them, not killing them. The small quantity of boric acid I use in bathwater isn't toxic to birds but is toxic to mammals if they consume enough of it.
> 
> ...


You are such a Godsend, Doves Witness! I cannot thank you enough for sharing such kindness and generosity with me. I will definitely start doing the boric acid baths as soon as possible. It is a colder rainier day here in Vancouver, so it can probably wait till tomorrow or so. Would you know if Boric Acid when sprinkled as powder is more effective than Diatomaceous Earth? I have been spreading DE around the general area my bird sleeps in, as well as sprinkling it on the paper towels I leave to catch his droppings through the night. The DE is supposed to kill bugs by essentially puncturing their exoskeletons which leads them to dehydrate to the point of death. It does not work instantly, but it is said to kill within 4 to 48 hours. I have been dusting my bird between his feathers with DE as well for 2 days in a row now and it seems to lessen his itching as he sleeps, so perhaps it is doing something? Not sure how boric powder differs. The way I see it, if my bird has Ivermectin in his blood, that should help to some degree as pests that feed from him will die. Any that don't feed on him may hopefully crawl through the DE and not survive for long. Apart from that, I spray the surrounding areas of his sleeping shelf with permethrin eco-friendly pesticide daily now, as well, which seems to kill mites on contact. I hardly see any mites, but I did see a couple prior to starting any of the above treatments. Had terrible bites a week ago but less so now. I found 2 mites on my bed, but Baby (my bird) had been sleeping on my bed at the time, so hopefully that's all that was rather than a cumulative gathering of them from the 6 months Baby shared my bed with me. As for tobacco leaves, will consider trying to spread some just around where Baby sleeps. I would not want to repel them from one area and cause them to spread in nearing furniture and such, though. For the most part would you say a "mite infestation" is not very likely if we have only 1 bird in our home? It's his daily exposure to wild birds that worries me, as this means new mites brought in daily as well. It helped to hear your Sky has exposure to wild birds in the Park also. Not sure how often she does, but I believe your case might be the closest I can get to Baby's, since he is truly one of a kind in his indoor/outdoor lifestyle! Lastly, would you know if bird mites are indeed "seasonal"? I read several articles saying they tend to infesr birds more so in the Spring and Summer. From your experience, are they less of a problem in certain months compared to others?


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Diatomaceous earth kills bugs via physical damage, whereas boric acid is toxic to many bugs, but interestingly not to earthworms while D.E. kills intestinal worms when given to birds orally. I'm not sure whether one would be more effective against mites in general, but against flying bugs (pigeon lice and flies) I'd go with boric acid since flying bugs aren't as likely to crawl through D.E.. Maybe a mix of both would be more effective than either alone: the D.E. damages the bugs, the boric acid gets in their system and no matter where they go, they are likely done.

I take Sky to the park once or twice a week depending on weather. So far no reinfestations of mites but she doesn't go every day and we're only there for an hour each time. I do add boric acid to her bathwater when we get home, sometimes she bathes, sometimes not. I can tell from her droppings overnight, being all very close together that she doesn't have bugs, and I'd know within one day if she did.

The mites may be seasonal if winter includes freezing temperatures in your area. On the other hand, if the mites are staying on the bird during cold spells, they have a great heat source and would probably survive. It rarely freezes here and the bugs are definitely on the birds all year long. As far as I can tell there is *always* at least one pigeon fly, and mites too of course, on every pigeon here. The bugs are easy to deal with while the birds are staying indoor with me to recuperate, but I'm sure that they are immediately reinfested once I release them.

By the way, I forgot to mention that a research study found that Thyme (the herb) kills Dermanyssus gallinae (the red mite.) The test was done with essential oil of thyme, which I haven't used, but the same phytochemical is in the dried leaves of thyme as well, so maybe worth trying as ground / powdered thyme leaves, or perhaps a spray of thyme soaked in water.

*Cade (Juniperus oxycedrus), Manuka, or Thyme vs red feather mites*
"Fifty plant essential oils were selected for their toxicity to arthropods reported in the literature. *Twenty-four of these essential oils were found to kill > 75% of adult D. gallinae in contact toxicity tests over a 24-h period at a rate of 0.21 mg/cm2*. Subsequent testing at lower rates showed that *the essential oils of cade, manuka and thyme were especially toxic to adult *_*D. gallinae*_. The toxicity of the seven most acaricidal essential oils was found to be stable at different temperatures likely to be encountered in commercial poultry housing (15°C, 22°C and 29°C), although results suggest that humidity and dust might influence the toxicity of some of the oils tested. The toxicity of clove bud essential oil to _D. gallinae_, for example, was increased at high humidity and dust levels compared with ambient levels."


Sci-Hub | Environmental interactions with the toxicity of plant essential oils to the poultry red miteDermanyssus gallinae. Medical and Veterinary Entomology, 24(1), 1–8 | 10.1111/j.1365-2915.2009.00855.x












^ The full list of tested plant extracts vs D. gallinae ranked by mortality rate, descending. FicamW is a commercial insecticide for mites, used as a control to compare efficacy.​


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Diatomaceous earth kills bugs via physical damage, whereas boric acid is toxic to many bugs, but interestingly not to earthworms while D.E. kills intestinal worms when given to birds orally. I'm not sure whether one would be more effective against mites in general, but against flying bugs (pigeon lice and flies) I'd go with boric acid since flying bugs aren't as likely to crawl through D.E.. Maybe a mix of both would be more effective than either alone: the D.E. damages the bugs, the boric acid gets in their system and no matter where they go, they are likely done.
> 
> I take Sky to the park once or twice a week depending on weather. So far no reinfestations of mites but she doesn't go every day and we're only there for an hour each time. I do add boric acid to her bathwater when we get home, sometimes she bathes, sometimes not. I can tell from her droppings overnight, being all very close together that she doesn't have bugs, and I'd know within one day if she did.
> 
> ...


I am in such awe of your extensive knowledge, and I am so grateful to you for sharing that with me! ❤ With regard to boric acid powder, is it safe to apply directly on and between birds' feathers, same as DE? Or is that a bad idea and better used in bath water, since the bird will likely ingest it when preening? DE is normally considered safe to dust the birds with, since it is food grade and even ingested for some health benefits. I will definitely purchase some boric acid now and start mixing it with the DE, at least for the surrounding areas Baby sleeps in. To your knowledge, can these mites that infest pigeons thrive in our homes and furnitures? I will disinfect, vacuum and diligently spray down everything daily, regardless, but it would help for peace of mind, to know whether this is big cause for concern or not. Thank you again so much for your invaluable advice! Your correspondence has lifted such great weight off me! ❤


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

The boric acid powder which I use is granular, about like table salt. There is a "fine powder" version available that would probably work better to apply directly to the bird without immediately falling off. I haven't tried the fine powder, solely because I would definitely still bathe the birds first, and bathing with granular boric acid dissolved in the water has eliminated bugs from every bird I've brought home with one or two baths. Either way -- direct application or dissolved in bath water, the end result is boric acid actually on the bird.

Like mosquitos, mites require a meal from a host to reproduce, so they are ultimately doomed in any environment without hosts. So I wouldn't say that the mites can _*thrive*_ without a host, but they can survive for months without a host. Survival time depends on the type of mite, the temperature, and the humidity -- hot weather and/or low humidity is deadly to D. gallinae / red mites which are common on chickens, pigeons, etc.

"Specimens survived for up to 9 mo without access to food when kept in the temperature range of 5-25 degrees C. Temperatures > 45 degrees C and at -20 degrees C were found to be lethal. Longevity was similar for females and protonymphs kept at 30 and 45% RH [Relative Humidity], but it was enhanced at 70 and 90% RH for protonymphs. This study showed that *D. gallinae can survive for a long time without feeding if the microclimate is suitable, but it does not thrive at low relative humidities and at temperature extremes*."
Link to research study full text


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> The boric acid powder which I use is granular, about like table salt. There is a "fine powder" version available that would probably work better to apply directly to the bird without immediately falling off. I haven't tried the fine powder, solely because I would definitely still bathe the birds first, and bathing with granular boric acid dissolved in the water has eliminated bugs from every bird I've brought home with one or two baths. Either way -- direct application or dissolved in bath water, the end result is boric acid actually on the bird.
> 
> Like mosquitos, mites require a meal from a host to reproduce, so they are ultimately doomed in any environment without hosts. So I wouldn't say that the mites can _*thrive*_ without a host, but they can survive for months without a host. Survival time depends on the type of mite, the temperature, and the humidity -- hot weather and/or low humidity is deadly to D. gallinae / red mites which are common on chickens, pigeons, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you so, SO much, again! I was able to place an order for 99% pure boric acid, but they only had the fine powder form. Would this be as effective as the granular form that you use, when dissolved into bird bath water? If spread directly in between feathers, as though it were a flea and tick powder for dogs and cats, could this be toxic to my bird when he preens and unwittingly ingest it? It seems to be as fine a powder as diatomaceous earth, but while the DE says "safe for ingestion in bird's", the boric acid does not mention anything. I've also read about low humidity levels being lethal for bird mites. Would you know what humidity level is considered lethal or would at least hasten their demise? As summer is around the corner, I'm hoping the use of indoor air conditioning will keep humidity levels lower than they have been, but I don't think enough to be lethal. Would lowering to "lower but not lethal" humidity levels by use of AC still hasten the mites' demise?


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Boric acid either as crystals or powder is the same chemical formation, so yes, both forms would be equal when dissolved in water. Although the fine powder might dissolve better in cold water than do the crystals. I usually dissolve the boric acid crystals that I use in 1/4 cup hot water, then add that to the room-temperature bath water.

Boric acid occurs naturally in soil where the mineral boron is present, so it is perhaps not too surprising that it isn't toxic to earthworms and birds, since both would be likely to ingest it routinely. Even in extremely unlikely purified and high quantity doses, boric acid isn't toxic to birds, so preening after boric acid powder application wouldn't be a problem.

The longevity study of mites showed that female mites laid the most eggs at 20 degrees C and 70% Relative humidity. The larvae only developed between 20 and 25 degrees C. Air conditioning to below 20 degrees C (68 degrees Fahrenheit) would decrease humidity and temperature, so at least it wouldn't be an ideal range of either for the mites, and it may stop larvae development completely, at least for D. gallinae / red mites.

With the bird coming and going between inside and outside, the sudden temperature change might annoy him. I'd watch for any obvious signs that he is uncomfortable during the transition, but I'd still try the air conditioning. If the temperature makes the bird cranky, maybe less air conditioning and use a dehumidifier by itself instead, targeting relative humidity levels below 40%.


"When relative humidity is maintained below the 40% to 50% range for a prolonged period, dust mites die"





Humidity and Dust Mite Allergies | Indoor Air Quality







iaqscience.lbl.gov


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> The boric acid powder which I use is granular, about like table salt. There is a "fine powder" version available that would probably work better to apply directly to the bird without immediately falling off. I haven't tried the fine powder, solely because I would definitely still bathe the birds first, and bathing with granular boric acid dissolved in the water has eliminated bugs from every bird I've brought home with one or two baths. Either way -- direct application or dissolved in bath water, the end result is boric acid actually on the bird.
> 
> Like mosquitos, mites require a meal from a host to reproduce, so they are ultimately doomed in any environment without hosts. So I wouldn't say that the mites can _*thrive*_ without a host, but they can survive for months without a host. Survival time depends on the type of mite, the temperature, and the humidity -- hot weather and/or low humidity is deadly to D. gallinae / red mites which are common on chickens, pigeons, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you, yet again, for taking the time to guide me through all of this! At the moment, air-conditioning would in fact still be too cold to keep running all day. It warms up 7am, and I turn it on from 7 till 11 in the morning but only after Baby has left to join his outdoor flock. I don't think that would have an effect on the mites, given that it's kept running for only 4 hours? But perhaps when Summer is at its peak, the AC will be kept running for longer durations. 

Our boric acid powder will be arriving tomorrow, and I will mix 2 tspn to a quart of room temperature water, per your suggestion. However, Baby has been resistant to getting into the baths I've left out for him, even now. He appears more curious when I dip my hand in it playfully but has not yet seen it as enticing enough to actually take "the plunge"! I hope he takes to bathing soon, because I feel for him, whenever I see him itch and preen excessively. Dusting DE seems to have helped, but of course, not as significantly as one would hope. Will also try mixing some boric powder to his "dusting" starting tomorrow. Hoping this might have a faster mite-killing effect than the DE alone. Would the boric acid powder dusted between his feathers kill mites as well as lice? How soon would it do so, if at all? So many thanks again, DW! Please feel free to share your name with me, if you'd be so inclined.  My name is Bea, and it has been SUCH a pleasure having you guide me of late, as my "birder earth angel"! Sending so much love!


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Hi Bea, I'm Mike. It's nice to know you, and thank you for your kindness to birds!

I use one teaspoon boric acid per quart of water for bathing normally. I do use more boric acid in the water when a bird has an obvious skin infection (boric acid also fights fungal infections.)

The _formerly feral_ pigeon, Sky who lives with me also would not take voluntary baths at first. Then we had a fledgling here for awhile who loved to bathe and splash water around. That led to Sky becoming interested and then she started bathing herself. I also had played a bunch of videos on a loop for both of them, of birds bathing in water, so that may have helped with the fledgling deciding to bathe on his own, but it was definitely watching him bathe that got Sky to bathe herself.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Hi Bea, I'm Mike. It's nice to know you, and thank you for your kindness to birds!
> 
> I use one teaspoon boric acid per quart of water for bathing normally. I do use more boric acid in the water when a bird has an obvious skin infection (boric acid also fights fungal infections.)
> 
> The _formerly feral_ pigeon, Sky who lives with me also would not take voluntary baths at first. Then we had a fledgling here for awhile who loved to bathe and splash water around. That led to Sky becoming interested and then she started bathing herself. I also had played a bunch of videos on a loop for both of them, of birds bathing in water, so that may have helped with the fledgling deciding to bathe on his own, but it was definitely watching him bathe that got Sky to bathe herself.


The pleasure of knowing you has been Mine entirely, Mike! And thank YOU for your kindness to both birds and fellow bird lovers! If more people in the world were as kind as you, it would no doubt be a better place. 😊 I will keep trying to encourage Baby to bathe daily. Seeing him preen and itch through the nights has been hard for me to see. I'm sure you can relate when I say the love we have for our birds carries over to vicarious stress on us when anything is ailing them. I must say, the itching and preening was FAR worse last week before I started dusting with DE and applying his first Spot-on Drops of Ivermectin. The instructions for his Spot-on Drops say it should continue to kill blood-feeding parasites for up to 6 weeks and that reapplication is not advised till then. Would you know anything about that? I'd ideally want to reapply as frequently as is safe without side effects. I'd like to try covering every base I can, to ensure he can be as comfortable as possible during the next 3 months. Temperatures usually stay below 20 degrees celsius around here except during Spring and Summer. I can't speak for the humidity levels, but I do believe there may be less mite activity once Fall is near. Baby was born in the winter, so this is the first time we are experiencing any external parasites on him to date. I'm sure they were always present, just not to the level they have been, where even we started getting bitten. Spring and summer, generally, are when ALL bugs seem to surface (flies and mosquitoes, etc). Hoping that applies to bird pests as well. Right now, I'm definitely taking it one day at a time. Since thoroughly vacuuming, sprinkling DE around Baby's resting area, dusting him with DE daily, and spraying down our apartment and furniture with low dose permethrin, it has been 3 days of things at least _feeling_ better. No new bites on me or my boyfriend, but I can only hope to keep it this way. 🙏🏻 Will repeat the cleaning and disinfecting every weekend, for as long as needed. Thank you, again, for sharing such kindness! It would be wonderful to meet your Sky and other birds someday! ❤


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Bea said:


> The pleasure of knowing you has been Mine entirely, Mike! And thank YOU for your kindness to both birds and fellow bird lovers! If more people in the world were as kind as you, it would no doubt be a better place. 😊 I will keep trying to encourage Baby to bathe daily. Seeing him preen and itch through the nights has been hard for me to see. I'm sure you can relate when I say the love we have for our birds carries over to vicarious stress on us when anything is ailing them. I must say, the itching and preening was FAR worse last week before I started dusting with DE and applying his first Spot-on Drops of Ivermectin. The instructions for his Spot-on Drops say it should continue to kill blood-feeding parasites for up to 6 weeks and that reapplication is not advised till then. Would you know anything about that? I'd ideally want to reapply as frequently as is safe without side effects. I'd like to try covering every base I can, to ensure he can be as comfortable as possible during the next 3 months. Temperatures usually stay below 20 degrees celsius around here except during Spring and Summer. I can't speak for the humidity levels, but I do believe there may be less mite activity once Fall is near. Baby was born in the winter, so this is the first time we are experiencing any external parasites on him to date. I'm sure they were always present, just not to the level they have been, where even we started getting bitten. Spring and summer, generally, are when ALL bugs seem to surface (flies and mosquitoes, etc). Hoping that applies to bird pests as well. Right now, I'm definitely taking it one day at a time. Since thoroughly vacuuming, sprinkling DE around Baby's resting area, dusting him with DE daily, and spraying down our apartment and furniture with low dose permethrin, it has been 3 days of things at least _feeling_ better. No new bites on me or my boyfriend, but I can only hope to keep it this way. 🙏🏻 Will repeat the cleaning and disinfecting every weekend, for as long as needed. Thank you, again, for sharing such kindness! It would be wonderful to meet your Sky and other birds someday! ❤


Forgot to ask, also, does the boric acid dissolved in water kill mites and lice INSTANTLY? Or does it take a few days for that to happen?


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Hi Bea, I'm Mike. It's nice to know you, and thank you for your kindness to birds!
> 
> I use one teaspoon boric acid per quart of water for bathing normally. I do use more boric acid in the water when a bird has an obvious skin infection (boric acid also fights fungal infections.)
> 
> The _formerly feral_ pigeon, Sky who lives with me also would not take voluntary baths at first. Then we had a fledgling here for awhile who loved to bathe and splash water around. That led to Sky becoming interested and then she started bathing herself. I also had played a bunch of videos on a loop for both of them, of birds bathing in water, so that may have helped with the fledgling deciding to bathe on his own, but it was definitely watching him bathe that got Sky to bathe herself.


Forgot to ask, also, does the boric acid dissolved in water kill mites and lice INSTANTLY? Or does it take a few days for that to happen?


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

I haven't used the Ivermectin drops, although I am thinking of using them on recuperated birds as I release them so that they might get a little more time before they have to deal with mites again. I'm still reading research about naturally insect-repellent plant extracts as possibilities too.

For some reason I have not yet encountered any of the long, slender, winged feather lice that are apparently common in many parts of the world, so I have no personal experience with them in regard to boric acid. The birds' mad itching from mites stops within a few hours after bathing in boric acid, and any pigeon flies (the hippoboscid louse / fly which looks similar to a housefly) are usually left floating in the water after the bath.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> I haven't used the Ivermectin drops, although I am thinking of using them on recuperated birds as I release them so that they might get a little more time before they have to deal with mites again. I'm still reading research about naturally insect-repellent plant extracts as possibilities too.
> 
> For some reason I have not yet encountered any of the long, slender, winged feather lice that are apparently common in many parts of the world, so I have no personal experience with them in regard to boric acid. The birds' mad itching from mites stops within a few hours after bathing in boric acid, and any pigeon flies (the hippoboscid louse / fly which looks similar to a housefly) are usually left floating in the water after the bath.


So interesting that there would be no feather lice where you are! Where is that, if you don't mind me asking? Here in Vancouver it seems very common. I've rescued a few other birds before, and each one, seemed to have a number of those on them. I'm positive Baby had them too, as I've seen a couple be dislodged from his feather during preening in the past. 

The Ivermectin drops get so many positive reviews, but mostly from people who keep their birds strictly indoors as pets. I'm not so sure how well it would work in the wild, although I believe it would be better than nothing, at least for a couple of weeks. Baby has only had 2 doses, 1 week apart. He's supposed to get once a week treatment only for the first 3 weeks. Then, it's supposed to be monthly only. If you are in the US, it's probably easier to find there. I have had to source all my avian supplies and treatments from the UK. For some reason, Canada does not have many at all. I never realized how kodt people cater to the needs of dogs and cats. Birds, much less so.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Bea said:


> So interesting that there would be no feather lice where you are! Where is that, if you don't mind me asking? Here in Vancouver it seems very common. I've rescued a few other birds before, and each one, seemed to have a number of those on them. I'm positive Baby had them too, as I've seen a couple be dislodged from his feather during preening in the past.
> 
> The Ivermectin drops get so many positive reviews, but mostly from people who keep their birds strictly indoors as pets. I'm not so sure how well it would work in the wild, although I believe it would be better than nothing, at least for a couple of weeks. Baby has only had 2 doses, 1 week apart. He's supposed to get once a week treatment only for the first 3 weeks. Then, it's supposed to be monthly only. If you are in the US, it's probably easier to find there. I have had to source all my avian supplies and treatments from the UK. For some reason, Canada does not have many at all. I never realized how kodt people cater to the needs of dogs and cats. Birds, much less so.


*most people


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

I think that the absence of the flying feather lice here may be due to two factors. First the area is inner-city, and extensively paved. There isn't much exposed soil, other than small areas within sidewalks, and a few small parks (one of which is reserved as a play-space for families with small children and is now covered with astroturf / plastic grass.)

The second factor is the widespread use of poisons. There are only two types of animal wildlife in the area, birds during the day, and rodents at night. Where buildings have any small amount of soil or plants around them, especially government buildings, there are black plastic, poisoned-bait boxes about shoe-box sized but not as tall. Despite which, the local government has also encouraged the homing of hawks in the area as an attempt to reduce the pigeon population. The hawks tend to catch animals that are already ill, which no doubt includes some creatures that have been poisoned. As a result, the hawks are very visibly active in the area for a time, and then they are gone for months, until replacement hawks can be homed in the area. Meanwhile, the populations of both birds and rodents in the area remains steady. The hawks might be effective at frightening pigeons away from the specific buildings where they are homed, but they don't reduce the overall population in the area at all.

The common insects outside are, in order of frequency: moths, flies, mosquitoes, and also aphids in some parks. Occasionally I see a butterfly. I haven't encountered even a single ant crawling on the ground in over a decade, no crickets or grasshoppers either. Also no squirrels, stray cats, or dogs -- thanks to the overly enthusiastic efforts of "Animal Control" which happily catches and euthanizes every sort of creature that is friendly enough to draw close to their officers. Meanwhile, the city is filthy and very frequently disgusting with all manner of human excreta plainly visible every day.

So maybe it's the use of poisons, or the unlikelihood of lice eggs hatching on concrete if dislodged from a bird either by preening, feather-shedding, or perhaps even bathing in puddles covered in oil from the streets, but so far no flying feather lice or pigeon ticks either. Just mites and pigeon flies.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> I think that the absence of the flying feather lice here may be due to two factors. First the area is inner-city, and extensively paved. There isn't much exposed soil, other than small areas within sidewalks, and a few small parks (one of which is reserved as a play-space for families with small children and is now covered with astroturf / plastic grass.)
> 
> The second factor is the widespread use of poisons. There are only two types of animal wildlife in the area, birds during the day, and rodents at night. Where buildings have any small amount of soil or plants around them, especially government buildings, there are black plastic, poisoned-bait boxes about shoe-box sized but not as tall. Despite which, the local government has also encouraged the homing of hawks in the area as an attempt to reduce the pigeon population. The hawks tend to catch animals that are already ill, which no doubt includes some creatures that have been poisoned. As a result, the hawks are very visibly active in the area for a time, and then they are gone for months, until replacement hawks can be homed in the area. Meanwhile, the populations of both birds and rodents in the area remains steady. The hawks might be effective at frightening pigeons away from the specific buildings where they are homed, but they don't reduce the overall population in the area at all.
> 
> ...


Oh, my goodness! Parts of that just sound terrible Mike! 😣 Whereabouts is this exactly?


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> I think that the absence of the flying feather lice here may be due to two factors. First the area is inner-city, and extensively paved. There isn't much exposed soil, other than small areas within sidewalks, and a few small parks (one of which is reserved as a play-space for families with small children and is now covered with astroturf / plastic grass.)
> 
> The second factor is the widespread use of poisons. There are only two types of animal wildlife in the area, birds during the day, and rodents at night. Where buildings have any small amount of soil or plants around them, especially government buildings, there are black plastic, poisoned-bait boxes about shoe-box sized but not as tall. Despite which, the local government has also encouraged the homing of hawks in the area as an attempt to reduce the pigeon population. The hawks tend to catch animals that are already ill, which no doubt includes some creatures that have been poisoned. As a result, the hawks are very visibly active in the area for a time, and then they are gone for months, until replacement hawks can be homed in the area. Meanwhile, the populations of both birds and rodents in the area remains steady. The hawks might be effective at frightening pigeons away from the specific buildings where they are homed, but they don't reduce the overall population in the area at all.
> 
> ...


The boric acid powder arrived in the mail today, but as expected, Baby has refused to get into the bath water despite our trying to encourage him. Would you know if spraying through his feathers with a boric acid and water solution (1 teaspoon to a quart of water) would be beneficial, while he still refuses to take his baths?  If this will not cause harm or side effects applied this way, perhaps we can try, just to get some boric acid in there? Please let me know what you think. Of course, if bathing is the only tried and proven way, we will keep encouraging him to take to bathing. Thanks again so much, Mike!


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Yes, a spray would work, and of course avoid spraying eyes and nares / nostrils.]


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Yes, a spray would work, and of course avoid spraying eyes and nares / nostrils.]


Thank you again so much, Mike! I


Doves Witness said:


> Yes, a spray would work, and of course avoid spraying eyes and nares / nostrils.]



Thanks again so much, Mike! 🤗 I got this spray in the mail today, too, which is DE based but also contains soothing aloe and omega 3 oils. While it is not a "kills on direct contact" spray, I figure it can't hurt to try out. Do you reckon it would be better to alternate spraying boric acid-water solution and this on alternating days? Would mixing the two solutions nullify the effects? I thought about mixing some boric powder into this too, just to make it a sort of two-in-one spray, but FYI, the powdered form of boric does not dissolve easily in water. It definitely clumps up and requires some "mashing".


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Bea said:


> Thank you again so much, Mike! I
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again so much, Mike! 🤗 I got this spray in the mail today, too, which is DE based but also contains soothing aloe and omega 3 oils. While it is not a "kills on direct contact" spray, I figure it can't hurt to try out. Do you reckon it would be better to alternate spraying boric acid-water solution and this on alternating days? Would mixing the two solutions nullify the effects? I thought about mixing some boric powder into this too, just to make it a sort of two-in-one spray, but FYI, the powdered form of boric does not dissolve easily in water. It definitely clumps up and requires some "mashing".


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

I'm surprised the powdered variety doesn't dissolve better, it sounds about the same as the crystal form that I use. I dissolve the boric acid in a small amount of hot water first, then add that to room temperature water.

The spray looks good and would work well along with boric acid separately or mixed together. Including omega 3 oil is quite clever too, I hadn't thought about external application despite knowing that the birds absorb vitamin D from external oils.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> I'm surprised the powdered variety doesn't dissolve better, it sounds about the same as the crystal form that I use. I dissolve the boric acid in a small amount of hot water first, then add that to room temperature water.
> 
> The spray looks good and would work well along with boric acid separately or mixed together. Including omega 3 oil is quite clever too, I hadn't thought about external application despite knowing that the birds absorb vitamin D from external oils.


Thank you, Mike! It was actually the only spray locally available here. I have ordered some Scalex Mite and Lice spray from the US, but that will take 1-2 weeks to arrive still. Meanwhile, do you think mixing boric-water solution with the contents of this DE-based spray will not dilute either to the point that they are rendered less effective? Wondering if I should just use them separately on alternating days, at least till I get a proper mite and lice spray truly meant for birds. The Scalex spray I ordered from the US claims to kill parasites quickly with every other day use being okay. I am always wary of chemical use but am also determined to rid Baby of these pests.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Bea said:


> Thank you, Mike! It was actually the only spray locally available here. I have ordered some Scalex Mite and Lice spray from the US, but that will take 1-2 weeks to arrive still. Meanwhile, do you think mixing boric-water solution with the contents of this DE-based spray will not dilute either to the point that they are rendered less effective? Wondering if I should just use them separately on alternating days, at least till I get a proper mite and lice spray truly meant for birds. The Scalex spray I ordered from the US claims to kill parasites quickly with every other day use being okay. I am always wary of chemical use but am also determined to rid Baby of these pests.


Attached is the photo of the Scalex spray, recommended to me by another bird rescuer from the US.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Scalex uses pyrethrins which will definitely work against various types of insects but the effect degrades drastically after application - up to 48 hours of diminishing effect, I think. None of them are considered toxic to birds. I would think that the DE spray would have more of a lasting effect because of the oils, but it's the only one that works through physical action rather than toxins. I don't think the birds would have a problem with boric acid mixed with the oils, but it might affect the bird's absorption of the oils themselves. I'd still try both DE and boric acid together.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Bea said:


> Thank you, Mike! It was actually the only spray locally available here. I have ordered some Scalex Mite and Lice spray from the US, but that will take 1-2 weeks to arrive still. Meanwhile, do you think mixing boric-water solution with the contents of this DE-based spray will not dilute either to the point that they are rendered less effective? Wondering if I should just use them separately on alternating days, at least till I get a proper mite and lice spray truly meant for birds. The Scalex spray I ordered from the US claims to kill parasites quickly with every other day use being okay. I am always wary of chemical use but am also determined to rid Baby of these pests.





Doves Witness said:


> Scalex uses pyrethrins which will definitely work against various types of insects but the effect degrades drastically after application - up to 48 hours of diminishing effect, I think. None of them are considered toxic to birds. I would think that the DE spray would have more of a lasting effect because of the oils, but it's the only one that works through physical action rather than toxins. I don't think the birds would have a problem with boric acid mixed with the oils, but it might affect the bird's absorption of the oils themselves. I'd still try both DE and boric acid together.


Thanks so much for your inspiring insights, Mike! What I've just done now is funnel out the DE spray liquid from its bottle, then dissolve 1/2-1 teaspoon of boric powder into it (just roughly measured), funneling it back into the spray bottle, which I will spray Baby with in a while. Hoping the boric acid won't inhibit the penetration of the DE, aloe and omega oils, as you suggested it might. Do you think this will work? I have 3 bottles of this DE spray, so if you think what I've done will hinder the effects of the DE spray from working or if I added too much boric powder, I can discard it altogether. Also, is 1/2-1 teaspoon boric acid dissolved into the 250 ml contents of DE spray too much? As it won't be used in a bath, I figured, just a little at a time would be applied with each spray, hence why I diluted 1/2-1 teaspoon for the whole spray as it will be staggered doses l. Pls let me know if that's too much or would be toxic in any way?


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Bea said:


> I figured, just a little at a time would be applied with each spray


Right, your reasoning makes good sense, and I agree. I don't think that boric acid and DE will interfere with each other at all. Together they would be a bit like rocks in saltwater. The DE would be coated with boric acid, but neither changed by the other.

I also don't _know_ that boric acid _would_ interfere with absorption of the oils, I'm just not certain that it wouldn't. Since your bird is indoor/outdoor, I wouldn't expect that he would have any nutritional deficiency at all, so the oils wouldn't be of crucial dietary importance in his case anyway. An indoor-only bird on a low fat diet might be different.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Right, your reasoning makes good sense, and I agree. I don't think that boric acid and DE will interfere with each other at all. Together they would be a bit like rocks in saltwater. The DE would be coated with boric acid, but neither changed by the other.
> 
> I also don't _know_ that boric acid _would_ interfere with absorption of the oils, I'm just not certain that it wouldn't. Since your bird is indoor/outdoor, I wouldn't expect that he would have any nutritional deficiency at all, so the oils wouldn't be of crucial dietary importance in his case anyway. An indoor-only bird on a low fat diet might be different.


So many thanks for helping me through this all, Mike! I have just sprayed Baby down with the DE spray — all 250 ml of that solution with 1 tspn of boric acid powder diluted carefully into it. The spray seems to have immediately calmed him down, and he hopped right to bed (his bed)... but I will observe if itching and preening reduce through the night overall. Given that this is all I have to work with till the Scalex arrives), would you say 1tspn boric acid powder diluted into 250 ml of the DE spray is enough? If you feel that was too much or that I can afford to add more boric acid powder to this 250ml than the already introduced 1 teaspon, please do let me know. Will the boric acid kill mites relatively quickly in the above quantity mentioned, sprayed, rather than bathed? 

I feel very guilty that I haven't been letting Baby perch on my shoulder, hop on me, or play with me as much as we used to before I started getting bitten by mites. I'm always worried the mites will transfer to me easily when I play (in close contact) with him. Would you say that is a valid fear, or are they not likely to do so? I would love to be able to handle him without worrying about mites transferring to me or my clothing, but I'm just not confident about it anymore since getting the bites 2 weeks ago. Not sure if the bites I got were simply due to the fact that Baby was sleeping literally next to me in bed for the 6 months since I rescued him, or if they in fact transfer to me everytime I handle him. 

Lastly, have you read about the product Elector PSP? A seller on ebay is willing to ship me a small amount to try. He says he uses it on his backyard Chickens and their coops. If I have Scalex underway, not sure if it's worth trying the Elector too, but at this point in time, I'll try anything. I believe the active ingredient of that is "Spinosad", and I wonder if that or the Pyrethrin contents of Scalex would be a better way to go, given Baby's indoor+outdoor lifestyle.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Bea said:


> So many thanks for helping me through this all, Mike! I have just sprayed Baby down with the DE spray — all 250 ml of that solution with 1 tspn of boric acid powder diluted carefully into it. The spray seems to have immediately calmed him down, and he hopped right to bed (his bed)... but I will observe if itching and preening reduce through the night overall. Given that this is all I have to work with till the Scalex arrives), would you say 1tspn boric acid powder diluted into 250 ml of the DE spray is enough? If you feel that was too much or that I can afford to add more boric acid powder to this 250ml than the already introduced 1 teaspon, please do let me know. Will the boric acid kill mites relatively quickly in the above quantity mentioned, sprayed, rather than bathed?
> 
> I feel very guilty that I haven't been letting Baby perch on my shoulder, hop on me, or play with me as much as we used to before I started getting bitten by mites. I'm always worried the mites will transfer to me easily when I play (in close contact) with him. Would you say that is a valid fear, or are they not likely to do so? I would love to be able to handle him without worrying about mites transferring to me or my clothing, but I'm just not confident about it anymore since getting the bites 2 weeks ago. Not sure if the bites I got were simply due to the fact that Baby was sleeping literally next to me in bed for the 6 months since I rescued him, or if they in fact transfer to me everytime I handle him.
> 
> Lastly, have you read about the product Elector PSP? A seller on ebay is willing to ship me a small amount to try. He says he uses it on his backyard Chickens and their coops. If I have Scalex underway, not sure if it's worth trying the Elector too, but at this point in time, I'll try anything. I believe the active ingredient of that is "Spinosad", and I wonder if that or the Pyrethrin contents of Scalex would be a better way to go, given Baby's indoor+outdoor lifestyle.


Forgot to mention that I, of course, did not use the whole bottle to spray! When I said "all 250 ml of the DE solution mixed with boric acid powder", I was just pointing out the DE solution to boric acid ratio.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Bea said:


> I feel very guilty that I haven't been letting Baby perch on my shoulder, hop on me, or play with me as much as we used to before I started getting bitten by mites.


A bit of distancing seems reasonable, and you're working to resolve the problem which will be a huge benefit to the bird. 

I'd wait on the "Elector PSP" (because side-effects of Spinosad include various forms of skin and eye irritation) in hopes that what you have now, or Scalex will fully resolve the issue.


----------



## merlini (8 mo ago)

Bea said:


> Hello and thank you in advance to anyone who is able to respond with help! I rescued a pigeon last winter. He is 6 months old now and while he spends every morning and afternoon with the wild city flocks, he continues to come home by sunset every day and stays/sleeps with me. As summer is approaching, I noticed he has been bringing in mites which have been biting me occasionally. Not sure if he's had them all these past 6 months, but I never experienced being bitten or seeing them on my bed up until now. He used to be able to hop around and sleep with and ON me, without any issues. Does anyone have a bird who stays both indoors and outdoors? How can the mite problem be treated if they have daily exposure to new ones from wild birds? Also, worried that the mites have/will infest my beddings, carpets and furniture. Some articles say this is not possible, while others claim it is highly likely and horrific. Anyone have similar experience who can shed light on what to do to treat both my bird and my home under the circumstances? I miss being able to have my bird fly and hop around my home freely without any mite issues. Wondering why this has suddenly become a problem, considering I never experienced it from December till now. Thank you so much in advance, again!


Many years ago I acquired a canary with mites who then passed them on to my parakeet. The parakeet almost died from the infestation and it took many many cage scrubbings and I think there was a spray I used on him. He survived. But the canary had them so bad that eventually even with the spray and washings it got into his throat and we were unable to save him.


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

merlini said:


> Many years ago I acquired a canary with mites who then passed them on to my parakeet. The parakeet almost died from the infestation and it took many many cage scrubbings and I think there was a spray I used on him. He survived. But the canary had them so bad that eventually even with the spray and washings it got into his throat and we were unable to save him.


I'm so terribly sorry to hear about the loss of your canary, Merlini! 🥺 I had no idea infestations could get that bad, and I thank you for bringing that to my attention. Thankfully, I don't think my bird is quite "severely infested" to such a degree. This is why I'm determined to do everything I can to address it in its early stages. Your parakeet is so blessed to have had your love and care save him! I'm sure he knows he has you to thank for it, and God bless your heart for doing so! ❤


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> A bit of distancing seems reasonable, and you're working to resolve the problem which will be a huge benefit to the bird.
> 
> I'd wait on the "Elector PSP" (because side-effects of Spinosad include various forms of skin and eye irritation) in hopes that what you have now, or Scalex will fully resolve the issue.


Thank you so dearly for all your invaluable advice, Mike! I think I'll sit the Elector out too, if the side-effects you mentioned are in fact documented. Yes, distancing has been as hard as it's been necessary. Just this evening, little guy wanted to sleep on the bed, the way he'd grown used to. I so badly wish I could permit him to, also because he had this habit of laying on the bed but keeping his vent towards the edge, so any drippings would easily land on the paper towels I'd lay on the ground beneath... It was a wonderful system... but for the time being, I have no idea if and when I'll succeed in getting the "problem" under control enough that allowing him on the bed would become acceptable again. Regarding the Scalex, considering it's pyrethrin based, would it be perfectly safe to spray on him regularly? Would daily use be toxic to birds? Considering mine has daily exposure to new mites, I'm unsure of how best to control it, even once the Scalex arrives (which should hopefully be in another week or two). I'm thinking Ivermectin drops in his system can target mites that feed on blood, while Scalex (perhaps alternated with the DE-boric spray) can target any that don't feed, as well as, of course, festhet lice, which are not known to be blood-suckers geberslly. Please do let me know if any regimen comes to mind. Would be so grateful if you could share your thoughts.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

"*Side Effects (of Spinosad topical suspension)*
Skin or eye irritation/redness may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, tell your doctor or pharmacist promptly.
Remember that this medication has been prescribed because your doctor has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects. Many people using this medication do not have serious side effects.
A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, get medical help right away if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.
This is not a complete list of possible side effects. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist."




__





spinosad topical: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD


Find patient medical information for spinosad topical on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.




www.webmd.com


----------



## Bea (8 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> "*Side Effects (of Spinosad topical suspension)*
> Skin or eye irritation/redness may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, tell your doctor or pharmacist promptly.
> Remember that this medication has been prescribed because your doctor has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects. Many people using this medication do not have serious side effects.
> A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, get medical help right away if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.
> ...


Thank you so kindly for sharing this, Mike! Will try my luck with the current DE-boric acid spray first, alternated with Scalex spray when that arrives. So far, combining the teaspoon of boric powder with the DE spray's solution seems to have really helped Baby sleep better. Hopefully, that means progress. Your kind, generous words of wisdom have been priceless, so thank you, again, for that! ❤


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

People seem to do all kinds of things to get rid of mites, lice and pigeon flies, but I simply bought a spray from a local pet store and really covered them all over with it, except for the face ofcourse, being careful of their eyes. Flies took off instantly and not a bug to be seen the next day. I've heard of someone's birds dying after being soaked in some solution. I stick with the spray, nothing crazy, works fine. Dunno about the house though


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

I've noticed that in certain areas of parks where there is bare soil, and especially on sunny days, some of the pigeons here deliberately dig into the soil enough to create a shallow depression surrounded by loose dirt. Then the birds lay in the shallow depression, fluff-up their feathers, and repeatedly lift their wings without extending them, which tosses some of the dirt up into the air around them. Some of it lands on them. They do this for some time, then shake out their feathers and leave. They are obviously having a dust bath, but they seem to only do so in only some particular places, and always where bare dirt is exposed.

Since pyrethrins, diatomaceous earth, and boric acid are all naturally occurring substances that can be found in some areas of soil, they are obviously closer to the bird's natural methods of dealing with external parasites, and thus less likely to cause any of the long list of side-effects of synthetic insecticides. We have the option to give the birds the same remedies they use naturally, but in more effective concentrations than may be found in most soil. They are effective and safe for the birds, and might even help young birds learn that those substances (by scent or texture perhaps) get rid of mites, lice, flies, and ticks.

As with some of the plant extracts that repel or kill parasites, any of those natural remedies can be added to water for bathing, or to be sprayed onto the birds' body feathers. I prefer adding them to bath water because the birds I care for here are all feral pigeons, and they often freely choose to bathe themselves, whereas if I were to catch them and spray them it would be a frightening experience for them, and probably make them more stressed and even more afraid of me. I do forcibly bathe them when I initially bring ill or injured birds home (because of possible wound or other external infections), but after that they are free to bathe when they like and without me forcing them. It's a far more peaceful and pleasant experience for them, and so far adding a bit of boric acid to their bath water occasionally has been 100% effective at totally eliminating all external parasites and also preventing re-infestation. The birds are happy with that system, and that makes me very happy.


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Hey pal. The solution I was referring to was some kind of pesticide which a guy on YouTube had used which killed his birds, and not whatever ingenious alchemy it is that you've got goin on


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

My point is that I use what the birds themselves use in nature, which is the opposite of "ingenious alchemy". I'm not creating anything new, just using what I have learned from observing the birds outside. I also very much like people such as yourself who actively care for wild birds. It is a _*very*_ rare trait. Most people don't even notice the suffering of wild creatures, and even in those who do, most won't do anything at all to help suffering creatures. You do, and I'm glad to know you. I also disagree with you about spraying (wild/feral) pigeons vs. adding natural remedies to bath water for them, and that is the extent of my disagreement.


----------



## beachwood45789 (Jul 15, 2014)

Hi Shaheem, there are so many people in these forums trying to get rid of mites and other parasites they spend a fortune on antibiotics and other stuff they do not need, all you need is an 8$ spray bottle of Bronco or an 8$ bag of Sevin dust. i am glad that someone is using there common sense to get rid of parasites instead of Baytril


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> My point is that I use what the birds themselves use in nature, which is the opposite of "ingenious alchemy". I'm not creating anything new, just using what I have learned from observing the birds outside. I also very much like people such as yourself who actively care for wild birds. It is a _*very*_ rare trait. Most people don't even notice the suffering of wild creatures, and even in those who do, most won't do anything at all to help suffering creatures. You do, and I'm glad to know you. I also disagree with you about spraying (wild/feral) pigeons vs. adding natural remedies to bath water for them, and that is the extent of my disagreement.


I don't object to the idea that there may exist a more natural method perhaps, and while I appreciate your passion, there are more polite ways to point out somebody's perceived error than to say " you're doing XYZ and I do ABC which is OBVIOUSLY much better " it's impolite. I'm not some scientist who travels the world in search of a cure for pigeons with mites and lice. I'm just a guy who finds pigeons in need of help from time to time and do my best to provide it.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Shaheem said:


> there are more polite ways to point out somebody's perceived error than to say " you're doing XYZ and I do ABC which is OBVIOUSLY much better " it's impolite.


I didn't make that statement, or anything like it.


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Since pyrethrins, diatomaceous earth, and boric acid are all naturally occurring substances that can be found in some areas of soil, they are obviously closer to the bird's natural methods of dealing with external parasites, and thus less likely to cause any of the long list of side-effects of synthetic insecticide.


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> I didn't make that statement, or anything like it.


Obviously


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Right, pyrethrins, diatomaceous earth, and boric acid all occur in the natural environment, so they are obviously closer to what wild/feral birds would use than are synthetic poisons. That is why I choose to use them. The same is true of tobacco, which I also use to repel mites from the birds' nesting / roosting areas when I bring them home for recovery from illness or injury.

I have used products such as Sevin dust long ago for gardening, but many pesticides such as carbaryl (the original insecticide in Sevin) have been banned in some places and can't be purchased in stores, whereas pyrethrins and boric acid are commonly available. I've never tried the modern version of Sevin without carbaryl, so I have no experience with it.


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Right, pyrethrins, diatomaceous earth, and boric acid all occur in the natural environment, so they are obviously closer to what wild/feral birds would use than are synthetic poisons. That is why I choose to use them. The same is true of tobacco, which I also use to repel mites from the birds' nesting / roosting areas when I bring them home for recovery from illness or injury.
> 
> I have used products such as Sevin dust long ago for gardening, but many pesticides such as carbaryl (the original insecticide in Sevin) have been banned in some places and can't be purchased in stores, whereas pyrethrins and boric acid are commonly available. I've never tried the modern version of Sevin without carbaryl, so I have no experience with it.


Just cool out with the "obviously" ****, it's like people who say "you do realise" it's ****ing irritating. And if everything was so "obvious" people would have no need to make a post asking for help dealing with mites lice and the rest


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

No part of what I wrote about my insecticide choices was about *you.* I wrote about my choices for treating external parasites, and my reasoning for using them.


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> No part of what I wrote about my insecticide choices was about *you.* I wrote about my choices for treating external parasites, and my reasoning for using them.


Why quote me then


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

When replying to only a portion of a post, I often quote the specific line(s) to which I am replying.


----------



## beachwood45789 (Jul 15, 2014)

Hey guys let it go lets move on ok we are all friends here


----------



## navamanas (Mar 17, 2016)

I hate to say it, but sending your pigeon out to hang with the flock, and then wondering why it comes home with mites, is like tromping around in a mud puddle, and then walking back inside and wondering why you have mud on your nice white carpet.

As long as you let it out, it will come back with mites. Even the ivermectin won't stop mites from hopping onto it from other pigeons that its been interacting with. The mites won't leave, or die right away. It could take as long as two days for them to die - which means that as long as you let it out, it's going to have mites.

Either it has to become domesticated or it has to be wild - or you build a loft for it where it can live outside. More than likely, though, if gets sent to live in the loft it won't come back because you are the reason for its return.

Seriously though, would you drop your dog off in the city center so that it could hang out with the other strays, get into fights, eat trash, pick up some fleas, and maybe some mange, and possibly get hit by a car?

I'd give that pigeon a good life indoors, where it's safe, warm, and where food and water is always available. At 6 months old it's not even an adult, and it could adapt very quickly. Pigeon pets are awesome pets. And get a harness so that when you take it outside it doesn't fly off and get killed.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

^ Would you take that deal? A "safe" life, locked indoors with warmth and "food and water" supplied?

Several lifetimes ago, we humans thought that people could safely travel long distances on ships at sea as long as they had food and water. So we set sail with a bit of meat, lots of grains, and fresh water. Then we developed scurvy, suffered horribly, and many died. Eventually we figured out that different foods provide different nutrients, and that people eating a diet lacking vitamin C weren't actually "safe" after all.

Then even more recently we discovered that in addition to basic food for energy, and minerals, and vitamins, that different plants, fungi, and bacteria also produce different chemicals, and that many of those chemicals affect infectious disease and even our bodies' management of toxins and damage. It wasn't merely that we need any generic "food" for a healthy life, nor that we only needed to ensure that we were getting the right minerals and vitamins. It turns out that even when people have plenty of food, with all the right vitamins and minerals, they can still become ill and die from disease or toxins -- they were never actually "safe" at all. We also sometimes need things like Penicillin to help us to overcome disease. We're still learning about the different phytochemicals produced by plants and we don't know _*how much*_ we don't know.

On this forum there are a lot of posts about pet birds, or birds kept for sport or other production, becoming ill and dying despite being kept in a "safe" environment with warmth, food, and water.

Would you trade freedom _and being able to fly across the skies_ for a "safe" warm cage with food and water, from people who don't even fully understand your dietary needs?

I would not, and I strive to treat others as I would want to be treated in their place.


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> ^ Would you take that deal? A "safe" life, locked indoors with warmth and "food and water" supplied?
> 
> Several lifetimes ago, we humans thought that people could safely travel long distances on ships at sea as long as they had food and water. So we set sail with a bit of meat, lots of grains, and fresh water. Then we developed scurvy, suffered horribly, and many died. Eventually we figured out that different foods provide different nutrients, and that people eating a diet lacking vitamin C weren't actually "safe" after all.
> 
> ...


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

The subject of the topic is a feral pigeon, born wild, and allowed to free-fly outdoors as opposed to being kept "safe" in captivity.


----------



## Shaheem (7 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> The subject of the topic is a feral pigeon, born wild, and allowed to free-fly outdoors as opposed to being kept "safe" in captivity.


Im just messing with you, I agree with you


----------

