# Baby Pigeons with Canker?



## Lainey1129

If anyone can help, it would be appreciated. Two youngster nest mates in my fathers loft have developed Canker. The silver bird has large lumps on both sides of his neck and the grey bird has a lump right in the center. I have ordered Berimax from Siegal but I am afraid the bird will die before it arrives. Is there anything I can get in the meantime to begin treatment? I have been hand feeding the silver and he is doing okay but when I attempted to feed the grey he cannot swallow the food. Photos are included.


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## Jaye

I hope they are hanging in there. I always order meds in an emergency by overnight/express shipping and I phone in the order.

You can feed using formula and a syringe...I would not attempt to tube feed or solid-food feed a Pigeon with significant canker, too risky a proposition.

Metronidazole can sometimes be found at Fish/Aquarium stores...call any local ones and see if they have any...sometimes called Fish Zole. You just wanna make sure it doesn't have a whole lotta other additives in it.

Best of luck, sending you all good vibes.


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## Lainey1129

*Many thanks*

I appreciate your response. Unfortunately, the stores I called do not carry Fish Zole. When you say formula are you talking about baby formula? Is there any specific kind you recommend? I was giving the silver water through a medicine dropper and he took it just fine so I think formula could be a great solution!

Both birds are holding their own right now and they have been isolated and are in a cage in my house away from other birds. You have no idea what I have been through, I have done things I never even imagined. A pea was stuck in the back of the silvers throat and I went in and fished it out.

I will keep you informed on the birds condition. Again, thank you for your help. By the way, the paratyphoid has been eradicated from the loft. If it wasn't for you and your responses, all the birds would probably have been dead. Thank you again!


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## Jaye

Kaytee Exact baby bird formula is the one of choice. Mix with water to a runny pudding/thick milky consistency and serve lukewarm (careful, it cools very fast).

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=kaytee+baby+bird+formula&FORM=HDRSC2

If you cannot find that locally, just buy some human baby food...something with peas and/or rice and/or corn and/or sweet potato or lentils. Get it lukewarm (be careful of microwave because it can create hot spots in the middle of the food...I usually just mix a little hot water into the room temp. food to make it lukewarm) and that works very well with a syringe. 

They will need quite a bit of it at their age, around 30-40cc/day per bird. 

Thing about the canker growths are, they are horrible enough already...but you don't want solid food or anything else solid to tear or dislodge a growth in their mouth, because that just multiplies the difficulties very quickly. I usually just lay the syringed food on their tongue, then close their beak. They usually swallow quickly. Sometimes I massage the underside of the beak just a tad to help it along for the first few times. Don't 'squirt' it in the mouth, as you know, they will aspirate.

When will the meds be arriving ?


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## Lainey1129

I have reordered the medication as priority overnight, The meds should be arriving tomorrow morning. Thank you again!


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## Jay3

The Berimax is mixed into the drinking water. That is good for treating the whole flock just in case, as canker does spread throughout the loft. But for treating birds that _do_ have canker, treating them individually with a tablet down the throat is always a better way to go. That way you can be sure they are getting enough of the medication. When you put it in the drinking water, you have no control over how much they get. Metronidazole works well for individual dosing.


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## Lainey1129

I feel like such a fool. After I reordered it for overnight delivery, my shipment came in the mail. I just spent 122.00. However, I mixed it in a half gallon jug and put some in their cage. Before I walked away, I made sure that I gave them both some with a medicine dropper. There are really no directions other than to mix 1 teaspoon to a gallon of water. I am not sure how much they need to drink of this.I will watch their water intake and make sure they are drinking. Thank you again for all your help.


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## Jay3

It would be good to get some Metro tablets so you'll have them. Canker is common in pigeons.
I would treat the flock too.


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## Lainey1129

*Treating Flock*

I treated the whole flock today as well as the two babies I have in the house. I have never heard of metro tablets before. 

The silver pigeon is getting feisty with me, it's kind of funny actually. She is eating on her own now so the only pigeon I am feeding is the grey. I'm giving him baby formula and making sure is is drinking the Barimax water. I believe the silver is going to pull through but I'm not sure about the other one. I am trying the best I can for these birds as I love animals. Thank you for the help.


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## Jaye

Oooh, well......I think Jay's point is that a concentrated dose medication (like Metronidazole) is very preferable to the kind you just dilute in water and let them drink. The latter, as you glean, and as Jay mentioned ~ is difficult to determine how much they actually ingest; usually, while it might be enough as a preventative... it is NOT enough to battle an obvious case of canker which has already become full-blown, which sounds like what your two have.

If all it is is canker (and no secondary infection as well), and they get tableted doses, they should both manage to get thru it OK. Once canker tablet meds are administered, they usually work really fast.

IMHO, you are taking a risk by just using the drinking-water delivered meds, particularly if you are concerned that one of your guys has it pretty badly.

Metro = Metronidazole tablets (aka FishZole). You could also use Ronidazole tablets (aka Ronsec). or Spartrex tablets. Always a good idea to have at least one of these around. Available online via Jedds or Foys, I believe.

Overnight ship plus meds will be far less that $100, too. I think any of the above only cost $20 for a jar of pills.


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## altgirl35

I would def direct dose the babies 
I use metro (flagyl)


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## Lainey1129

*Metro/Flagyl*

I am attempting to overnight some medicine for the baby birds but I have a couple questions. The only pill form of Metro/Flagyl is 60 mg. Is this the correct dose for baby birds? Also, the grey bird is having problems swallowing food so how could I get a pill down his throat?

I ask these questions because I am not a pigeon racer, my Dad is, and his answer to everything is to break the birds neck to put it out of its misery. I don't want to order the wrong medicine again. Please help, you have been wonderful!


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## Jaye

That pill size is OK, but the whole pill it is NOT what you wanna dose them, anyway......however you can crush the pill up and mix with a small bit of water to give via syringe or can divide the pill up and give a piece of the tablet.

Oddly, I cannot find my old prescription labels t tell you a proper dosage ....but likely Jay3 or Altgirl or someone else who reads this thread can tell you the appropriate dosage in mg needed daily.....


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## Lainey1129

*Thanks*

I'm ordering it now! If anyone has the proper dosage I would appreciate it. Maybe the dosage comes on the label? The birds are probably a little over a month, they still have some yellow feathers on the heads. However, their growth has been stunted due to the canker. I pray this works and thanks again!


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## altgirl35

I dose 50mg/kg
So I would need the weight in grams to dose
I know many people just break up pills and give that way


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## Jay3

You could cut the pill in half and give each 30mg once daily. I would start with a whole pill though to get them going. At this point, I would treat for 10 days. Then see how they are doing. I once had to treat for 14 days.

Sometimes it makes them vomit, so try to medicate after they have eaten. Or maybe give some defrosted peas first. Also, a couple of drops down the throat, way past the tongue, so as not to aspirate them, of Pepto Bismul helps stop the vomiting problem, if they do. About a half hour before medicating.


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## Msfreebird

I agree with Jay3 with the first dose. I would give 1 whole pill (60mg), metronidazole has a wide safety margin. I have 250mg pills and give each adult bird 1/4 tablet, which is 62.5mg. I usually cut that in half for babies.
As far as vomiting (which raw metronidazole can cause), most pills now are coated, so its not so much a problem anymore.
I had a 2 week old baby with severe canker one time, throat was completely blocked. I had to get liquid metro. I took a soft feeding tube, cutting the end into a point, mixed the metro with formula and 'twirled' the feeding tube thru the canker to get it directly into his crop. **Do not try this if you've never crop fed** Metronidazole starts to work very quickly once you get it into them. Also, dose for 10 days minimum.


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## Jay3

Some of the tablets are coated, not all, but once you cut them up, that kind of takes away the idea of the coating, as they are now open. Feed them a bit first, then medicate, so it isn't on an empty stomach.


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## Lainey1129

Well, the birds are still alive and putting up a good fight. I sent for the Flagyl overnight on Thursday and received an email that it would be here Monday. The other medicine I sent for overnight still hasn't arrived and they had the nerve to charge 90.00 to send it. 
I will attempt to get the birds weight but to be honest, I don't think the grey bird will make it. I attempt to give him the Barimax water via syringe but he doesn't want to take it. I don't believe he can get it down and the lump is growing. The silver bird seems in better spirits and even looks better. I have tried everything humanly possible to save both of these birds and it is breaking my heart. 
Thanks for the help, I will get a weight on both birds today.


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## Jay3

The 30 mg daily will be fine for these birds. Just start with the 60 mg one time. Then do the 30 mg daily.


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## Jaye

Hang in there. Try feeding the formula to keep the guy going for the next 24 hours. It is a long and slow spiral with canker, a Pigeon can usually get really, really bad for a few days before actually succumbing. I have brought back very, very severe canker Pigeons with Flagyl....the first does already should make an improvement; by the second dose the turnaround was dramatic.

As soon as you get the Metro/Flagyl, begin immediately. Hoping you can be there to receive the package and they don't miss you and leave a parcel tag or note for redelivery.

Regarding the med....I do not mean to be a fly in the ointment, BUT...if the one Pigeon is having such difficulty swallowing, I think the pills need to be dissolved in water and syringe-administered. I would tend to not want to try popping a somewhat large pill piece into the mouth of a significantly cankered bird because it may dislodge a growth. Just my 2 cents.


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## Jay3

I agree with you Jaye, and was thinking about that too. But that would depend on if the person can do it without aspirating the bird. It might be easier to mix it into the formula. Just make sure that he gets the total amount of formula that it is added to.


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## Lainey1129

*Sad News*

I just lost the grey bird. It was suffering so my father pulled his head off. The canker which is internal came right out and was quite large.I was deeply saddened to allow him to kill it but his pain and distress was quite obvious. Will these pills treat the canker inside the body on the sliver? Will it somehow how to be removed or will the medicine clear it up? Still, the silver is still eating and drinking on his own.


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## altgirl35

Yes it will clear up internally
I'm so sorry to hear that the babe was too far gone
Poor little guy


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## Lainey1129

*Many thanks*

Yeah, he was bad. He couldn't breathe and his eyes were half shut and he was making some funny sounds. I cried like a baby and as a matter of fact, I can't stop crying. I just pray that the other bird will be fine.


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## Jay3

Well that's awful.


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## Jaye

It is awful, I am sorry. 

You tried your best; unfortunately the meds didn't get there when they needed to.

Demand your money back on that.

Also, in the future, I might suggest that perhaps have your dad consider a better way to euthanize.

Right now..... turn your attention to the surviving one.....he/she needs you just as much.


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## altgirl35

Severing the spinal cord is actually an accepted form of euthanasia 
Brutal for the person doing it but quick for the bird and that's really what counts 
I'm praying the other babe can be saved


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## Lainey1129

*More problems*

I'll tell you, this bird has had its share of problems. The canker has shrunk considerably already from the Barimax. Tomorrow the other pills will arrive. My fathers friend came over and I showed him the bird and he couldn't believe how much better it looked and how the canker shrank. He said that the bird has a respiratory infection because there is air in his sacs? He showed me and I could feel the air. He didn't know a cure for it except an antibiotic and perhaps piercing the air sacs with a safety pin. Anybody ever hear of this and know what I should do? Otherwise he is getting much better.

He also assured me that the other bird was too far gone and that although I am devastated by his death that severing the spinal cord was painless for the bird.


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## altgirl35

Don't use a safety pin, too dirty 
Need a clean needle on a 3ml syringe
I poke into the air sack and pull the air out
Airsacs can go down on thier own and I won't mess with it unless they are in respitory distress or its so big it's making them uncomfortable 
Have to be put on antibiotics if your poking needles into them


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## altgirl35

They sometime re inflate too, an it needs to be done a few times before it stays down
I usually see airsac rupture in trauma cases like hit by car


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## Lainey1129

*Thanks*

I think I'm just going to leave it alone and see what happens. I don't do well with needles. Hopefully it will go down on its own.It doesn't seem to be in distress. He has even put on weight since I took his picture.

This bird really loves me, he sits on my lap and shoulder and I have never seen a pigeon do that. My dad told me that he is used to me. We know he will never race but he will be my pet bird and well cared for! Thank you so much for all your advice. Everybody has been so helpful.


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## altgirl35

Pet piji's the best!
Keep him inside and safe forever <3


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## Lainey1129

My bird received his first dose of Metro today. I gave him a whole pill today and will give him 1/2 pill for the remainder of treatment. They are 60 mg tablets. He seems to be in good spirits!


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## Jay3

Let us know how he does. Glad you got the med.


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## Lainey1129

I will let you know how he does. I really believe he will be fine. Thanks for all your advice!


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## Lainey1129

*Surgery?*

For my one baby pigeon (6 weeks old) that has made it this far, I am wondering if he (the sex has been determined) may have to have the canker in his throat surgically removed. It seems to have shrunk considerably but he is doing some very weird things. He sits back on his tail after eating and bobs his head around while closing his eyes. He seems to also be gasping for air after eating. We also had to poke him and remove air as he has an air sac infection. I keep deflating it several times a day. He was on Barimax for 5 days and then I switched to Metro. Is it possible that my baby needs surgery to have this canker removed? I lost one baby a few days ago and I can't lose this one. If someone could inform me, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.


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## Jay3

How has the sex been determined? Anyway, he waited a long time to be treated for the canker, as the Barimax in the water doesn't really count for much. Give the Metronidazole a chance to work. The canker needs to be treated, and the lump will go away. How are you feeding him now? The canker lump could be causing the breathing problem, but also could have gotten food down the wrong tube. Even the air sack inflating could be doing it. He's only been on treatment with the Metro for a couple of days. Sometimes, the canker will stop solid seeds from going down, and that could be bothering a bird, as they can just kind of sit their in their throat, but I believe you are feeding formula, aren't you? How are you giving the med?


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## Lainey1129

My fathers friend used some kind of magnet to determine the sex, then he looked at the tail feathers with some black and told me I have a male. I was giving him baby formula when the lump was huge but the bird is feeding himself now, he is eating pigeon food (small grains and small peas only). He is also drinking on his own. It was the grey bird that couldn't eat or drink toward the end. You think I should go back to the formula? Do you think I should increase his dosage of Metro? I gave him 60 mg the first day and have been giving him 30 mg for the last two days. I let him eat and then 1/2 hour later I give him the pill. I put it to the back of his throat and he swallows it. I was seriously wondering if he needs surgery to remove it. There used to be a foul odor coming from his mouth but that is gone.


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## Jay3

The odor is normal when a bird has canker. No, you don't remove it, you need to cure him of the canker, and it will go away. He really has only been treated for 3 days. It takes like 7 days if you catch it right away, but he has had this for a while now. You will have to treat him for at least 10 days, and maybe longer. Check his throat to be sure no peas are getting caught. I had a youngster who was getting split peas caught on the canker, and they weren't going down. I had to hand feed formula till she was over the canker. The 30 mg should be enough for a youngster, but it will take longer. If after a week, it hasn't made enough different, than you could go to 50 mg, but I would wait to see what the 30 will do.
BTW, magnets are an old wives tale.


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## Lainey1129

Thank you Jay3!


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## altgirl35

Yes can take a long long time, I suspect the respiratory distress is from the ruptured air sack
Do not mess with the canker at all
I used to debride it until once I was rubbing a big chunk in a mourning dove and it moved and it must have eaten into her jugular
She bled out in my hands
I have had them on flagyl for 2 months once with severe canker 
Only been a few days, be patient my dear


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## altgirl35

I agree with the magnets, only way to know for sure is if she lays eggs or you get a DNA test done
You can get one done for 25 bucks at avian biotech


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## Lainey1129

Okay, thank you, I will be patient. 
I'm so sorry about that bird bleeding out in your hands, that must have been very traumatic for you. 
His lungs have stopped re-inflating so much so I think that is getting better.
As far as the sex of the bird, it doesn't really matter to me as long as it lives. I mean, I don't think the bird will ever breed because it may be a carrier of canker? My only concern at this point is keeping him alive, happy, and out of pain.
When I wrote that post last night I thought something was very wrong, he was just acting so strange. Today, he is back to himself and hasn't been doing the head bobbing as much.
Again, I thank each and every one of you for your patients and understanding with me, I've never done this before. I've never had much to do with his birds. It wasn't until paratyphoid hit the loft that I started trying to help the birds. That's when I noticed the babies with canker.


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## altgirl35

It was awful, hard lesson to learn 
Love and nutritional support go a long way
Did you give him a heating pad, sick birds like warmth
Conserves their energy to healing rather than keeping warm


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> Okay, thank you, I will be patient.
> I'm so sorry about that bird bleeding out in your hands, that must have been very traumatic for you.
> His lungs have stopped re-inflating so much so I think that is getting better.
> As far as the sex of the bird, it doesn't really matter to me as long as it lives. *I mean, I don't think the bird will ever breed because it may be a carrier of canker?* My only concern at this point is keeping him alive, happy, and out of pain.



There is no such thing as a carrier of canker. Most pigeons do have trichomonads in their system. When the stress level goes up, it can cause the levels of trichomonads to go up. That is what will cause a canker outbreak. But they are not carriers of canker. Any stress can cause it, like the stress of breeding, and the parents will pass it on to the youngsters. Even a change in the seasons can cause it. The stress of weaning or racing, and even an over crowded loft. But they aren't carriers because they had come down with canker. It is passed on to others in the loft when they are sick with it. It is passed through the drinkers and feed. Or billing, or the parents feeding their young.


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## Lainey1129

altgirl35 said:


> It was awful, hard lesson to learn
> Love and nutritional support go a long way
> Did you give him a heating pad, sick birds like warmth
> Conserves their energy to healing rather than keeping warm


No heating pad was given to him. I keep him outside in a cage when it is sunny and warm outside but I bring the cage in at night so the bird doesn't get cold. He is eating his pigeon food and in addition, I've been feeding him baby food peas and carrots. I'm making sure that he has all the nutrition he needs to heal quickly.
My dog (Golden Retriever) is getting a little jealous over the attention the bird gets from me but I make sure to spend "quality time" with my dog as well. My dog loves the birds. When my Dad lets them out my dog chases them around the field in back of my house, running in circles. It's funny watching him because he thinks he is herding them in.


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## Lainey1129

*Stressed/Please help*

Well, yesterday was a horrible day for me. I went out to check on my bird and he was making sneezing sounds and foamy liquid was coming from his mouth. Of course I ran into the house with him and showed him to my father. When he held the bird, he told me that the bird was not going to make it and that any food he eats is getting stuck on the canker and won't go down, he showed me that even though he was eating, there was no food in the crop. He also told me that the bird is starving to death. 
I decided to put him back in his cage and try to research the problem. I went outside maybe a half an hour later and there was my father on the swing with the bird cage next to him. I freaked out and looked in the cage and my bird was in there. I asked him what he was doing with my bird and his response was, "I fixed him for you." Next to my fathers leg was canker, larger than a golf ball but more like the shape of a kidney and it had food packed all around it. It was brown but had some yellow on it. I immediately freaked out and picked up my bird thinking he was bleeding to death in the cage. I was surprised to see the lump was gone and there was very little blood. My father told me the slice would heal by itself but my husband and I stitched him up.
I grabbed an antibiotic from the garage (all we had was amox.) and put it in his water. Is there a different kind I should use? I should probably still treat the bird for canker but I don't know for how long.
I was very angry with my dad for doing this (I would have taken him to an avian vet for surgery if needed) but he told me that he knows how much I love the bird and that if he didn't do something the bird most likely would have been dead well before Monday and he didn't want to see me crying.
Any suggestions anybody? I really need help.


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## Jay3

That was dangerous for your father to have done. Hard to understand where the canker lump was, from your description, unless it was coming out through the crop wall. Yes, he should be treated for canker, but also should have an antibiotic now, from the fact that he was cut. Can you post a picture of where the canker was removed?


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## Lainey1129

*Picures*

One pic is of the wound, the picture with my hand in it shows exactly where the canker was located on the bird. What kind of antibiotics should I treat him with?


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## altgirl35

Did he pull the canker from the inside or the outside?
Def keep him on the metro and add a oral antibiotic that you can direct dose
Amox, Baytril, Bactrim for a full ten days ( longer if needed)


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## altgirl35

Do you know how to tube formula into a piji?
Would be good to tube in exact at least twice a day
May not want to fill him up to much to avoid getting food into the wound
It higher up which is good


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## Lainey1129

I do not know how to tube feed a bird.  The canker was inside the body but outside the throat. The bird is eating and trying to pull the stitches out. I guess what he tried to do was make a small slit to pour food in his crop. He said when he made the slit, the canker popped out and made the slit larger.

I'm so at a loss right now but he looks better.


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## Jay3

As altgirl has said, formula would be better for now until he heals up. Putting feed into a bird that way is not a good thing to do. You will have to get food into him, but not past the cut, or it will fall out. It can also go into the body cavity, but under the skin. and you don't want that.


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## altgirl35

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gaASO15r8


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## Lainey1129

*This bird is messed up!*

I went to the pet store and bought the Kaytee Exact and implements to tube feed the pigeon. I held the bird in a towel, opened his beak and held his neck up and attempted to tube feed him. He fought me tooth and nail and it took several attempts to get the tube down the throat (must still be a blockage). After I tube fed him I held the bird on my hand where I saw some of the formula coming out of his wound. I was horrified!! I left him in the cage and checked on him this morning. There were plenty of droppings so I figure at least some of the food got where it was supposed to. I tube fed him again this morning and same thing, I will feed him again this evening. 

I think I have to get him to an avian vet asap tomorrow morning or do you think this will heal on its own? We must have missed a spot while stitching. This is taking such an emotional toll on me I could only imagine what it is doing to the bird.

From the bottom of my heart, I thank everyone who has tried to help me through this process. 

All seeds were removed from his cage yesterday and he was not happy about it! He is also still on the metro.

Thanks for the video, I looked one up yesterday after your advice. I wasn't sure I had the strength to do it but I did what everybody on here felt was warranted.


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## Lainey1129

Jay3 said:


> As altgirl has said, formula would be better for now until he heals up. Putting feed into a bird that way is not a good thing to do. You will have to get food into him, but not past the cut, or it will fall out. It can also go into the body cavity, but under the skin. and you don't want that.


I think I have to get him to an avian vet asap tomorrow morning or do you think this will heal on its own? We must have missed a spot while stitching. This is taking such an emotional toll on me I could only imagine what it is doing to the bird.

From the bottom of my heart, I thank everyone who has tried to help me through this process.


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## altgirl35

He can prob only take small feedings more frequently when his crop empties 
Def should get it stiched 
Hopefully vet give you a good antibiotic
Does take a little practice to tube feed but sounds like you got it in there
I like the feeding needle because I can wiggle it and actually see that I am deep into the crop
If you tube again get it past the wound lower into crop


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## Lainey1129

There is still a lump in his throat. It could be food lodged there, it could be the canker regrowing. I heard stitches must be done within 24 hours of the injury, I don't know if that is true. He is very very very skinny. I had an argument with the lady at the pet store as I needed help finding the supplies. They had hand feeding syringes but not a needle or tubing. She told me all I needed to do was squirt the formula in the birds mouth with the syringe. She said it was dangerous to put anything down his throat and he will die. I told her that if I didn't, the bird will die for sure. I had to be creative and use airline tubing for an aquarium. I do get the tubing down pretty far, the problem is that there is a little hole far down. My father apparently made the slice up higher but when the canker came out, it ripped. Tomorrow morning first thing I will call the vet and get him in asap.


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## Jay3

Even if you stitch it up on the outside, the food can still leak out of the crop on the inside. There are 2 layers there. The crop and the outer skin.


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## Lainey1129

I'm not understanding your post, please clarify what you mean, I am new at this. I am tube feeding the bird, I am doing everything I can to save him. How will I know if it is leaking out of the crop inside? I cannot give up on the bird, I have grown so attached to him. Other than the feeding issue, the bird seems well. He will fly short distances, and he seems alert. Is what you are saying is that my father may have cut his crop and the food is leaking inside his body? If so, what, if anything, can I do?

It seems to me that you are a very dedicated person and I respect that! What would you do if you were me? I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks Jay3.


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## altgirl35

Sounds like there may be many rips
Ugh, I thought there was only that one that looks pretty high 
He must have a tear in the crop because food leaked out 
So he needs to be stitched inside and outside 
Jay is right, if you only stitched the outlayer of tissue and missed the inside layer, food will get trapped in between they layers of tissue and become infected 
The vet can still stitch later than 24 hrs
They freshen the edges of the wound and then stitch
Btw that lady at te pet store clearly knows nothing about pigeons
You would have prob killed him had you fed the way she said to
They are different than parrots or songbirds


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## altgirl35

Make sure he has access to water, he needs to stay hydrated if he is going under tmrw


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> I'm not understanding your post, please clarify what you mean, I am new at this. I am tube feeding the bird, I am doing everything I can to save him. How will I know if it is leaking out of the crop inside? I cannot give up on the bird, I have grown so attached to him. Other than the feeding issue, the bird seems well. He will fly short distances, and he seems alert. *Is what you are saying is that my father may have cut his crop and the food is leaking inside his body? *If so, what, if anything, can I do?
> 
> It seems to me that you are a very dedicated person and I respect that! What would you do if you were me? I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks Jay3.



You said your Dad made a slit to be able to pour food into the crop. Then that would mean that he had to cut through the outer skin, which covers the crop, then through the crop wall. Also, if there was seed attached to the canker lump as you said, then the canker was growing into the crop. Probably where it started, and it grew outward. So by removing it, that leaves a hole in the crop wall. Now when you put food into the crop, and it leaks out, it can leak out into the body, if it doesn't just all come out to the outside of the bird. If it does that, it will cause an infection.
Crop wounds will often heal if not to bad. Better if it is high up on the crop, so you can feed him and it doesn't come out, as long as you feed smaller amounts just more often. To actually stitch it up, first the crop should be stitched up, then the layer of skin that covers it. Does this help at all? Altgirl has explained it also.


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## Lainey1129

Yes Jay, it helps a lot. Thanks to your and Altgirl 35 I realized that my bird needs intervention. I will call the vet 1st thing in the morning and schedule an appointment. I will let them put the bird under, stitch the crop, and stitch the outside of the bird. I tube fed him three small meals today of the Exact. It is leaking out as well as bird seed that obviously was still in the throat. I will not feed him anymore tonight as he will be going under tomorrow. Again, thank you for your patients and understanding.


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## Lainey1129

altgirl35 said:


> Sounds like there may be many rips
> Ugh, I thought there was only that one that looks pretty high
> He must have a tear in the crop because food leaked out
> So he needs to be stitched inside and outside
> Jay is right, if you only stitched the outlayer of tissue and missed the inside layer, food will get trapped in between they layers of tissue and become infected
> The vet can still stitch later than 24 hrs
> They freshen the edges of the wound and then stitch
> Btw that lady at te pet store clearly knows nothing about pigeons
> You would have prob killed him had you fed the way she said to
> They are different than parrots or songbirds


Thanks, it is worse than I thought. I will get him into the vet tomorrow so they can put him under, and stitch him up the correct way. Thank you so much!

As far as that woman in the pet store is concerned, I was getting quite annoyed. She actually argued with me about this practically calling me an abuser. I rolled my eyes and walked away.


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> Thanks, it is worse than I thought. I will get him into the vet tomorrow so they can put him under, and stitch him up the correct way. Thank you so much!
> 
> As far as that woman in the pet store is concerned, I was getting quite annoyed. She actually argued with me about this practically calling me an abuser. I rolled my eyes and walked away.



Don't let her upset you. Some people just don't know anything, and think they know everything. Thanks for trying so hard for this little one.


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## Lainey1129

Jay, I have been reading up on surgery for pigeons. I read posts that say to never have a bird put to sleep for such a thing. They say to insist that I hold the bird with a baby sock on its head and hold the feet down close to the tail and that the bird won't move. I read that the bird won't resist if held in this position.

They said it is dangerous to put a bird to sleep for surgery and that they usually die, Is this true? I will be getting up at 8:00 am to schedule an appointment, hopefully you will see this and respond before I take him in, he has been through so much already.

I fell in love with this bird, he is now like a pet to me, I really need to save him.


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## Jay3

Well for surgery, yes they would need to be under anesthesia. Yes it can be dangerous with any animal. Just to stitch a crop though, I don't think it would be needed. A good vet will know what to do. Good luck with your little one, and please let us know how it all goes.

Here is an article you may find interesting.
http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/surgery.html


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## altgirl35

Had a piji last summer that went under 4 times
He had crop issues and kept get infected lumps that needed to be removed and stitched up
Piji's are tougher than you think
Doesn't mean there isn't risk, I don't think you have a choice with this bird
He is not going to make it without it
It would be cruel to not put him under for surgery


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## altgirl35

He was a baby too


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## altgirl35

I think holding them down and stitching them up like that IS abuse
Can prob numb the area, will just have to see what vet thinks
They need to clean everything out really good


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## Lainey1129

My appointment is at 10:15 this morning EST. Last time I went there, they recommended I euthanize my bird which I did. I made sure to tell them that this is not an option! I figured my bird needed an empty stomach for surgery so I didn't or won't tube feed him before hand. A good sign is that he looks very perky this morning but he is hungry  I will let everybody know how it goes as soon as possible.

Again, I can't thank either of you enough for the advise and support. If this bird survives, I have the two of you to thank again!


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## altgirl35

Good luck little birdie!!!!


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## Jay3

Don't they sometimes use the surgical glue for these things?


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## altgirl35

Yes, that's how they did lumpy, disovable stiches inside and surg glue on the outside
Wonder how he is 
Waiting...


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## Jay3

I know. Hope it wasn't too bad.


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## Lainey1129

*Birds Condition*

Well, the vet didn't feel that the bird should come home with me today. She thought the surgery would take 1/2 hour and it took over 1 1/2 hours. She said the crop was cut in several places and the esophagus was cut. She said she had to remove a lot of dead tissue. She triple stitched him inside to prevent ripping. She did not use glue on the outside, she stitched that as well.

According to her, the operation was a success. I called and asked if I can bring him home and they said yes. I took the hour drive and they wanted him to spend the night under supervision. He was eating and excessively thirsty. When he would drink he would cough up the water. She wants to give him time for the swelling to go down a little. $650.00 so far. She seemed a little dumbfounded regarding the coughing up water.

I am worried, I don't know if this is normal.


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## Lainey1129

By the way, my father threatened to lock me out of the loft from now on. He said I'm crazy for spending that much on a bird. I did discover that my birds mother has another young one in the nest and a hatching egg.

Oh and my bird tested negative for canker. They tested him twice. They injected him with an antibiotic and are sending me home with Baytril drops. He had lice, they treated him for that. My fathers loft is a mess and he wants to lock me out? I told him that I should lock him out!


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## Jay3

Did you happen to mention that you wouldn't have had to spend that amount if he hadn't cut the bird? I think you were very kind to do that.


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## Lainey1129

Thank you Jay. I didn't mention it because it would do no good. My dad is old school. I did tell him that he had better start taking better care of his birds and that killing them is not the answer. He now has all kinds of medication that I bought and he better start using it.


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## altgirl35

Oh boy, good luck with your father, I wish he would at least stop letting them breed if he doesn't want to care for them
I think your amazing for caring for this sweet baby and doing all you can for her
Mbe you ought to buy him some fake eggs
I hope the new babes are not sick too
She is prob coughing up water because she is sore and irritated inside
Plus anesthesia can make them nauseous


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## Lainey1129

The vet called me at 10:00 pm and told me that she went back to her office to feed the bird again. She said that he ate a lot of seeds, then had a sip of water. He did well with that one. He ate some more seeds, took more water and then choked again. She said he was alert and looking in good spirits. She will call me in the morning and let me know how he is doing. Problem is that with the esophagus having been repaired she doesn't think tube feeding would be good with an inexperienced person such as myself. She said he had a nice large stool which means the food is going where it is supposed to. My fingers are crossed that he can come home tomorrow, I miss him. Even after the surgery when he saw me he hopped of the table and onto my shirt where he climbed on my shoulder.

I will let you know how he is doing when I get him home, I'm trying to keep the faith!

I took about 6 eggs out from under birds this evening and replaced them with fake eggs.One egg I was about to remove was beginning to hatch so I put it back. As promised, tomorrow I will clean his lofts. I just need to order lice medicine now.

I have counted all the babies in the loft and he knows that I am keeping an eye on all of them and if one disappears, he is on his own from now on. He is too old to do this, he is 87. He has been raising birds for 70 years. To be honest, it is the only thing that keeps him going.


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## altgirl35

Sounds like he has a wonderful daughter to help him 
You can get bird mite n lice spray at petco or petsmart


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## Msfreebird

Just caught up again! Keeping my fingers crossed that he heals up nicely. He has a great mom!
For surgery's on birds, they usually mask birds and use isoflourane now, no injections, so its a little safer than it use to be. They also wake up much quicker.


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## Lainey1129

*Heard from vet again*

Dr. Wade called me this morning and stated that the bird looks very chipper. I guess there was still some food in his crop from last night (the GI tract may have slowed down) so she gave him some sort of injection to get things moving in there). He drank water today without choking. She will call me around 3:00 to let me know if I can pick him up. She is going to give me the tube she has used to tube feed him as she said I will need it for his medication. She is going to give me a lesson on tube feeding to make sure I am comfortable with the process and that I am doing it correctly. 

I will let you know if my bird comes home today.


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## Lainey1129

I don't understand this one bit! The vet called earlier and said that my bird is doing better then she calls me and says the bird is doing worse. She said he is kind of "dumpy". She told me that it is time to think about what is best for the bird. I informed her that I will not put him down. I am going to get my bird at 3:30 no matter what she tells me. I am very discouraged at this time and deeply saddened. To be honest, I am a little angry as well!


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## altgirl35

He went thru a lot
Go get him and do your best with him
Stop and pick up a heating pad for him 
That will help with his recovery
Put under 1/2 his cage so he can choose it


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## altgirl35

I keep checking back hoping for good news and dreading bad
I know how quickly things can change with these guys


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## Lainey1129

*Urgent*

Somebody please help me, I just want to cry. What did she do to my bird? It looked way better before he went in. I don't think he will make it. I am enclosing pictures of what my poor bird looks like now. I have a sick feeling inside of me right now. He is all swollen and now he droops down with his eyes half closed. Trust me when I tell you that these pictures don't show the extent of how bad it really looks. He is on pain meds, baytril drops, and an antifungal.


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## altgirl35

It does look aweful but is hopefully sealed well
Just keep going with meds, nutritional support and warmth
Did she give you meloxicam/metacam? That will help a lot with swelling and pain
You can ice it for 15 minutes every hour, just make sure he doesn't get chilled
Do less time if he does
What is the strength of the metacam? And what is the dose she told you to give?
I dose pretty high for severe injuries


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## Lainey1129

For the pain she gave me Meloxicam/Metacam, 1.5 mg. I am to give 5 units every 12 hours. I asked her if I could ice it for the swelling and she told me no. She said I can use a warm compress. I always thought ice was good to bring down swelling. The bird has been home for 2 hours and only pooped once.

Somebody please tell me that my bird has a chance. My husband looked at him and told me that he is not going to make it. He is drinking a lot of water but hasn't eaten since he has been home. The vet seemed as if she didn't think he would make it either.


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## Lainey1129

Thank you everybody but my bird has passed away. I am deeply saddened, thank you everybody for your help.


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## Jay3

I''m so sorry to hear this news. I know how hard you tried for him. I think there was just too much damage to fix. I'm really sorry. At least now he is in peace and out of pain.


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## altgirl35

Oh no 
I'm so very sorry
You were wonderful and did everything to help him
He knew love in his short life
I believe they come back, he will come back as a big strong eagle and soar free


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## Lainey1129

Thank you for caring everybody and also for helping me through this horrible situation. I was very surprised by my fathers reaction, I could tell that his heart broke for me. I had him on the kitchen table with food and water by him. All of a sudden he didn't want to stand and tipped himself laying on his neck. He was breathing rapidly and my dad warned me what was coming. He told me that the bird was getting ready to die so to hold him close to me, which I did. I stroked his feathers and gently kissed him on the head. A couple of jerks and it was over. My father watched me crying uncontrollably and told me that I did everything I could do and that the bird was very fond of me.

I know he is now in peace but my heart just aches. My dad told me that when my baby birds parents babies (2 days old) are old enough, he will let me raise them. Right now I'm not sure I can deal with that. The way I feel right now, I may avoid the lofts at all costs.

Again, thank you everybody and I only have the best wishes for you. Goodnight!


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## Msfreebird

I'm sooo sorry  You did your very best for this little one. Don't give up on going to the loft.......You have alot of love to give them, let them help you thru this.


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## altgirl35

I'm with waynette, those birdies need you 
You will get them all in good condition so they can have a much better existence


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## Lainey1129

I couldn't stay away, I've already been back in the loft. I discovered another baby bird with canker in his butt area. There went my dad again, "you can't save him." I asked him to let me try. I gave him a metro (he is approx. 3 weeks old), I will give him a half again today. I don't understand the canker problem. This was in a completely different loft (prisoner loft) and it was treated for canker a few weeks ago by me. Do I dare continue to be involved? I don't take death very well, it drains me.


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## altgirl35

It's hard to get rid of trichomoniasis 
Not sure what is best to use in a loft situation because I'm a wildlife rehabilitator and not a pigeon owner so I treat the individual bird
Hopefully your saving them and lessening the deaths


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> I couldn't stay away, I've already been back in the loft. I discovered another baby bird with canker in his butt area. There went my dad again, "you can't save him." I asked him to let me try. I gave him a metro (he is approx. 3 weeks old), I will give him a half again today. I don't understand the canker problem. This was in a completely different loft (prisoner loft) and* it was treated for canker a few weeks ago by me.* Do I dare continue to be involved? I don't take death very well, it drains me.



What did you treat with? And for how long?


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## Lainey1129

When I discovered my bird with the canker approx. 3 weeks ago I ordered Barimax from Siegal Pigeons. It is an additive put in the water as a prevention or treatment of canker. As many of you nice people told me, that was not good enough so I ordered the Metro. When the Berimax first arrived I treated every loft with it for 5 days as the bottle recommended. I even treated the prisoner loft even though there was no signs of canker in it.

Since this is only available at Seigal pigeons, here is what the label says:
Contains dry docotions of: Curcuma longa, Daucus corata, Hennae fillium, Coptis japonica, Iridis rhizome, Crocus sativus, Vaccinium myrtillus.

Proprietary Blend 200K
Calicum Laktate Powder Maltodextrine Powder

The label also states that this formula provides the most advanced recipe against all strains of trichomonasis. Five days of use has proven to eradicate even the most resistant strains.

Anyway, all lofts are back under dosage of the Beramax starting today. As far as the baby, I am giving him 1/2 Meto pill. His crop is full so his parents are still feeding him. Any suggestions?


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## altgirl35

I give them flagyl when I feed them, never had them barf it


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## Jay3

Here is some info on canker for you to read.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm032

http://www.americangianthomers.com/articles/canker2.pdf

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Race_Form_Part1.html


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## Lainey1129

*Please Help!*

Hello everybody! I again wish to thank you for all the advise you have given me on my bird. Although he died, you have given me plenty of information. Enough to save other birds in the loft with similar problems. Recently I posted about a baby I found with canker. Two days ago I found another. I gave both birds the metro and am happy to announce that they are both doing better and the canker is shrinking. Again, thank you!!!!!

Today, however, I found a baby bird in the loft with something I have never seen before. I actually was checking it for canker (it had none) but I noticed his banded foot and leg completely swollen. So swollen that it is 5 times the normal size of the other foot. Band removal would be impossible even if I tried to snip it off. Anybody ever seen this before? Can anything be done? I had left over pain killer from the vets office from the other bird so I gave him some. Is there anything I can do? My dad is upset, loves this bird, it is a red check.

Please help if you can, you people have been amazing!


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## Jay3

Was the band tight? Could that be what caused it? You are going to need a vet to cut the band off, otherwise the circulation will be cut off and he will lose the foot. That has to be very painful.


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## Lainey1129

Jay3, my husband and I iced the leg and began to cut the band off. It took about a half hour and it started to bleed. The swelling then went down. The band is off now and I am ready to treat the leg. There is no more blood. Thank God for my husband!!!!!


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## Jay3

Tell your husband GREAT JOB! What did he use, a dremel? How old is the bird?


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## Lainey1129

We went out and bought a dremel thinking that is what we would use. When we got it home we realized we could not use it because the skin above and below the band was badly swollen over the band. We iced the leg for a little while then he grabbed the band with needle nose pliers and pushed the band up a little and used little snips while I held his leg still. After a couple snips the leg began to bleed releasing some pressure and the swelling went down a little more. He carefully snipped the rest of the band off. I put an antibiotic ointment on his leg and covered it with gauze and taped it. He is now resting comfortably. The bird is about 3 and a half weeks old. My father just banded him a few days ago.


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## Lainey1129

*Bird Foot*

The foot on the bird is still badly swollen. I pinched his toes this morning to see if there is any feeling and he did not pull his foot away. I'm worried because as I said, the band was on for at least 3 days. I hope he will not lose his foot or have to be put down. I don't know how long to expect this swelling in the foot or if it will ever become normal. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.


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## altgirl35

Piji's do okay with one foot, I see them out there all the time
With all that swelling its hard to judge what actual damaged has been done
I would treat with the metacam and an antibiotic like Baytril or clavamox 
Of course throwing in the metro to prevent canker from rearing its ugly head
Can ice it for 15 minutes every hour to help with inflamation 
I wonder if he caught the band on something and actually fractured his leg?
Can you feel for fractures?
Keep him on bed rest "small padded cage" for a week or two so he doesn't injure it further


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## altgirl35

Btw I once had a crow who came in with a swollen leg that had a fracture high up that already was healing
He had no deep pain sensation for over a month
I really thought he was going to be unreleasable 
Crows don't do well with one leg
Anyways once it healed up those nerves connected and he got use of the foot
It wasnt perfect but wasnt bad enough to keep him from freedom 
It's amazing what they can recover from given time


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## Lainey1129

I really believe that the damage was just done when my father banded the bird. It had no way of fracturing the leg as it is in a nest and doesn't come out. I don't know how to feel a leg for a fracture. The birds mom is still feeding him so I'm afraid that if I take him away he won't do so well. Maybe it would be best if I did? I have some left over Baytril from the vet and also the pain killer. I will post a pic of the leg shortly after I go get him from his momma. I'm going to head out now. BRB.


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## Jay3

I wouldn't take him from his parents. You can still treat him and put him back. It's unlikely that he will hurt it further in the nest, and I think that keeping them together is more important at this point. I believe the swelling will eventually go down, Just try to keep it clean and put the antibiotic cream on it. I think it's important that he stay with his parents. I wouldn't treat for canker either, unless there is reason to believe that he has it. That's a lot of meds for such a young one. The swelling would take some time to totally go away. But I think it will. If your Dad banded the bird just a few days ago, then he probably broke a toe or something, as that is too old to be banding a bird. Why was he banded at that age?


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## Jay3

If the bird is eating seed and drinking on his own, you could bring him in, but if not, then you would have to feed him and get him weaned. You could give it a few days first to see if the swelling goes down.


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## Lainey1129

Thank you Jay. As far as the banding goes, I have no clue why he was banded at that age. The only thing I do know is that my father was in the loft alone and when I realized that he was, I went back there to see what he was doing. He stated that he just banded a beautiful red check baby. I thought nothing of it. He has been banding birds for 75 years so I honestly thought he knew what he was doing. It wasn't until I saw the bird a few days later (I never saw that one as the nest is too high for me to see in) that I noticed the leg. At that time I brought him in and showed my dad. He was upset and said that he had a hard time getting the band on that bird. 

I did bring the bird in the house last night but then returned him to his mother. I had my dad feel for a fracture, he said was none. The bird does hold his leg out at a funny angle (straight out to the side). Once again, I listen to my father that told me to get a strip of material and tie the good leg (loose) and then tie the bad leg (loose) together so so birds leg is held in the right position and doesn't heal funny. (Not sure if this was a good idea but now the bird has his leg in a normal position)

I know my father means well, the love for his birds have kept him going all this time. He is just getting too old to handle the workload therefore I have been doing most of the work for him. I feed and water the birds daily, I scrape the lofts and nests daily, and I check for sickness. I told him that it is time to consider getting rid of most of his birds and only keeping a few. I never asked for this and taking care of pigeons is a huge responsibility and I am starting to care very deeply for certain birds in the loft.


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## altgirl35

That's what I do for splay leg, just make sure its not tied to tight
I think jay is right about keeping him with his rents
But I think he should get the meds


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## Lainey1129

*Funny Story and a question*

Now I have seen it all. I have my bird in a smaller nest bowl so he can't move around too much and hurt his leg any further. He can't get out of the bowl because his legs are tied together loosely. I go into the loft to check on him tonight and I notice something is under his chest. His mother was in the cage also but not in the nest. I go to look and my baby bird is sitting on an egg. I could not stop laughing, it was so funny to see.

I grabbed another nest bowl, put some straw in it, took the egg from underneath my bird and put the bowl in the cage right next to my baby's bowl. Even my father had to laugh.

As far as my bird goes, the swelling is going down. The foot is not normal yet but it is two times smaller than yesterday. On the first day I noticed it, his foot was the size of a baby's hand. Hopefully everything will work out well for him!

Question- The two baby birds that I have been treating for canker have been reacting very well to the medicine. The canker shrank on both birds a lot! Do I continue to medicate them until I feel no canker at all? If not, when do I stop? Thank you!


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## altgirl35

I treat for a solid 10 days even if it disappears in a few days 
Sometimes I go longer, you want to make sure its good and gone!


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## Jay3

If you stop too soon, it will just back back stronger. You can build up a resistance to the med.


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## Lainey1129

*medication*

Thank you both of you for the answers. I have a feeling the one bird (I named him Squeakers) will be on it for quite a while. Even though it shrank, it has quite a way to go until it's gone. The other bird (Sugar) I caught earlier so it is only the size of a pea now.

The Metro bottle says to treat 1-3 days. Am I running the risk of harming the pigeons liver by treating so long?


I bought some Braggs organic apple cider vinegar and some honey. From this point on, each loft will be given this in their water two times a week as a preventative for canker.


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## Jay3

I to 3 days isn't for cure. Maybe preventative. Don't know why it would say that otherwise. Normally 5 to 7 days, but can be longer.
The ACV doesn't prevent canker. It puts an acidic environment in the gut, which the bad bacteria(like for e-coli or salmonella or whatever) do not like and don't grow well in. The good bacteria in a birds gut that is there naturally to help to keep him healthy, do like that kind of environment, and therefore do well there. So the ACV helps the good bacteria, and chases away the bad. Sort of. Canker isn't a bacteria to begin with.


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## Lainey1129

*Bad Loft Week*

I've been trying to take care of so many different birds with different ailments that I am totally stressed out right about now.

I don't understand what is happening to the lofts, my father says he never had this many problems in the 75 years he had pigeons.

The bird with the bad leg is doing okay so far. He is fed well by his father and he seems happy but I don't think his leg will ever heal properly. It is tied together with the other leg but when I attempted to change the cloth, his leg still slides out to the side.

There were three babies in the loft with canker(canker was in the navel area). I have been treating them daily for quite a while and all seems like it will be well with these birds. One of them, a nest mate of the one I have been treating now has a huge canker lump in his throat. I have been checking them daily and today is the first time I saw it. He is about two weeks old. These are the brothers/sisters of the bird I got surgery on. Out of the four babies these birds had, all four of them got canker. I attempted to split a pill in quarters and put it down his throat but he can't swallow. I could see the yellow canker in the back of his throat. It can't eat, it can't drink and I don't know where to go from here. I did dissolve a pill in water and shoot it in his throat via syringe but he really doesn't look very well. Any ideas?


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## Jay3

Stress causes canker, and it is readily passed on from birds sharing water and feed, and from parents feeding babies. Could it be that the loft is over crowded? Are waters changed at least once daily? Do they have an aviary to get outside into the sunshine? 
The birds that are showing signs of canker need to be treated individually, and should be separated from the others. Usually a bird in that condition can be fed formula, and liquid flagyl. Or do as you did, and dissolve it and feed it to him that way. Be very careful not to get any in his trach. The med can even be mixed into formula or applesauce, as long as you make sure that he gets it all.


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## Lainey1129

I let all the birds out twice a day for exercise. Once in the morning, and then again in the early evening. I change their water daily, I clean out the container and then pour new water into it. There is also a window in the loft that they can get sunshine.

In the instance of the babies, they did get the canker from the parents feeding them because they don't feed themselves. I scrape and give fresh bedding daily to the babies. I tried using a cut of syringe with a balloon on the top and a slit in it to try to get the baby with canker in his throat to eat, he dipped his beak in but would not eat at all. The other baby in the nest has canker in the navel area but is still eating from his parents. I am able to give him Metro daily and the canker is shrinking. I caught the parents today and also medicated them. The loft is not overcrowded.

I will be surprised if that baby makes it through the night. He is open mouth breathing and his eyes are shut. I will continue to do what I can but I believe I will lose this baby and it breaks my heart because this is another silver just like the one I lost.

As far as the ACV and honey goes, thanks for letting me know what it is for. I did treat all water in the lofts. Better to be safe than sorry.


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## altgirl35

Sounds like the canker is running rampant
I don't know how to treat multiple birds I'm sure jay does
You defiantly have a battle on your hands
I think every single bird in both lofts need treatment to kick that cankers ass
I hope the little one can pull through, wish I was closer I would take him


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## Lainey1129

I sure wish you were closer to me as well. I don't handle death very well. I am at a loss over what to do.

I went crazy with some pigeon items today. I ordered 3 new drinking stations, Pro-Biotics, Gentochol (forgot what this is for), Avio tablets (also forgot what it is), Amox. tablets, and Tri-Coli Stop medicine. $160.00 later, I will have some meds to work with in the future.

The loft is large and there are approximately 40 birds in it not including the 5 babies. Of the 5 babies in that loft, 3 have canker, 1 has a bad leg, and one is normal and healthy. All of the adult birds appear healthy and the older youngsters are healthy as well. In the prisoner loft there are about 25 birds (not normally this many but the males have been taken out of the other loft to prevent more eggs) not including the two babies. One baby has canker and the other is perfectly healthy. I just can't figure it out!

I know that I am looking for answers that nobody probably has but it helps me to vent. Thank you so much, everyone has been so kind.


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## Msfreebird

You can treat the whole loft with Ronidazole in their drinking water. Ronidazole is a water soluble powder for 'loft treating' when you can't treat individually.
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/medications/canker-products/4035-ronidazole-powder-10
Most all pigeon suppliers carry it.


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## Lainey1129

*Thanks for the tip!*

I am willing to try anything now. My baby bird is in much distress and is suffering terribly. I have to put this bird down even though I fell in love with it. Until I can get this done I am giving the bird liquid pain medication just to try to ease the suffering. I will order Ronidazole at one point today. I have some left over liquid nystatin from the vet but I'm not sure why I would use it. She told me it was for fungal stuff after my birds surgery. 

My father seems to have lost interest in his loft because his health is failing, now it is up to me to get and keep these birds healthy. I spend an average of 6 hours a day in the lofts checking, inspecting, scraping, cleaning, and freaking out when I find another bird that is sick. 

Whatever this sickness is, it seems to hurt the babies as the adults show no signs. UGGH, I am at a loss!


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## altgirl35

I'm sure any little bug that gets to one will easily spread to the others 
I think babies are just more vulnerable to succumbing to it
Adult birds in general can live with things babies can't survive 
So treating everyone is the way to go
I hope the baby makes it so sad, when things settle down you should learn to tube, so if ever a bird is down and unable to eat you can hopefully pull them trough it with nutritional support and meds
Vet gave you nyatatin to prevent a fungal infection because the baby was going to be on antibiotics 
I remember when I was younger everytime I was on any kind of pennucillin I would have the doc give me a script for yeast infection stuff before you could buy it over the counter 
It's the same thinking


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> I am willing to try anything now.* My baby bird is in much distress and is suffering terribly. I have to put this bird down even though I fell in love with it. Until I can get this done I am giving the bird liquid pain medication just to try to ease the suffering. *I will order Ronidazole at one point today. I have some left over liquid nystatin from the vet but I'm not sure why I would use it. She told me it was for fungal stuff after my birds surgery.
> 
> My father seems to have lost interest in his loft because his health is failing, now it is up to me to get and keep these birds healthy. I spend an average of 6 hours a day in the lofts checking, inspecting, scraping, cleaning, and freaking out when I find another bird that is sick.
> 
> Whatever this sickness is, it seems to hurt the babies as the adults show no signs. UGGH, I am at a loss!




Do not put him down. Birds will usually get over the canker with the right meds. I have had really sick birds that looked like they would die, and they are now fine. He doesn't need pain meds if it is for canker. He just needs the correct dose of the right med. I wouldn't have much faith in that Tri coli stop or whatever it is. That is supposed to have all natural things in it. If you use it, I would use it along with the Metro. Don't give up on him, as they can be at deaths door and come back. He deserves a chance to get well.
Waynett is right in that Ronidazole is good for loft treatment. That's what I use now.

The adults have built up an immunity to things that the babies don't yet have. So these things can affect them more, but given the chance to get well, they usually do well from there.


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## Lainey1129

Jay, there is blood coming from his mouth. His eyes are closed and he is breathing with an open mouth. There is a complete blockage of his throat and I can't even get liquid down any longer. He refuses food from his parents. I don't know what to do. I can't even get a feeding tube down, I tried this morning even after I saw the blood. I have included two pictures, one of the very sick baby and one of my red bird with the bad leg. So sad! 

I can't feed or water, so now what do I do?


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## Jay3

Gee, I'm really sorry. Don't know where the blood is coming from. Maybe a canker nodule was knocked off? He may very well die. Canker is easy to cure if caught early. Normally they can be cured even if not. I had a young one with canker that was so bad, her throat was almost closed, but I was just barely able to feed her, and the canker eventually subsided.


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> I sure wish you were closer to me as well. I don't handle death very well. I am at a loss over what to do.
> 
> I went crazy with some pigeon items today. I ordered 3 new drinking stations, Pro-Biotics, Gentochol (forgot what this is for), Avio tablets (also forgot what it is), Amox. tablets, and Tri-Coli Stop medicine. $160.00 later, I will have some meds to work with in the future.
> 
> The loft is large and there are approximately 40 birds in it not including the 5 babies. Of the 5 babies in that loft, 3 have canker, 1 has a bad leg, and one is normal and healthy. All of the adult birds appear healthy and the older youngsters are healthy as well. In the prisoner loft there are about 25 birds (not normally this many but the males have been taken out of the other loft to prevent more eggs) not including the two babies. One baby has canker and the other is perfectly healthy. I just can't figure it out!
> 
> I know that I am looking for answers that nobody probably has but it helps me to vent. Thank you so much, everyone has been so kind.



When one baby has canker, I treat both babies and the parents. I pulled the babies and hand feed. If you don't do that, than you can medicate the parents in the evening when it is getting dark, as they won't be passing the med on to the babies so much that way. They won't be feeding them in the dark.


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## Jay3

The one with the bad leg.............is that the one you had to take the band off of? He seems to have a splayed leg, which should be wrapped to straighten it out before he gets any older.


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## Lainey1129

Both of the babies in that nest are on Metro. The one that is dying is obviously not eating but the parents are feeding the other. The other has the canker by his navel and it is shrinking. Do you think I should pull the baby and hand feed it or is it safe while on the metro?

The bird with the bad leg is the one that the band had to be removed. His legs are tied together with cloth, you can see the brown in the picture. Maybe I'm not doing it right, I will attempt again tomorrow. He is doing well, his parents are feeding him and I only put him on the loft floor for the picture. He is still in the nest with his parents (no canker on him anywhere). He does also eat on his own a little as I have been putting food in his nest and he picks a little.

Meanwhile, my heart is breaking for the baby and I don't know what I can do for him. All I know is that I saw blood in his mouth last night and something bloody was in there this morning. I took it out of his mouth and it looked like meat. I then attempted to tube feed him but I couldn't get the tube past the throat, I tried several times. Again today I crushed a metro and mixed it with water and attempted to syringe it in his mouth, some went down but most came out. I don't like knowing that he is suffering.


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## altgirl35

Need to tie his legs a little closer together 
Look at how a normal bird stands tie it tape so his legs are underneath him
Tape right above his feet


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## altgirl35

*tie OR tape
Can you get a smaller tube for the baby?


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## altgirl35

Metacam is actually benificial for severe canker
Helps with all the inflamation in there


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## Jay3

The taping of his legs will do no good. It has to be brought back into the right position. Because that is the way they are going to grow. Here is a link with a picture of a bird with splayed leg, and how it was taped.
http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/splayleg.htm


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## Lainey1129

*Splay Leg Fixed Correctly and Baby bird*

Okay everybody I did it. His legs are now taped right above the foot and in the correct position. Although I must say, the bird doesn't seem to like it very much.He walks funny now, I guess it will take time to get used to the way he is supposed to walk. Thanks for the website, I saw the correct way there.

Altgirl35, I have a small tube from the vet and that is the one I attempted to use. It will not go down past the canker and if I force it I may break the canker off and cause a bad bleed or death. I tried several times (at least 6) and I lubricated it with the formula each time before I tried. The only thing I can try to continue to do is to squirt the medication in the mouth and hope the canker goes down so I can get a tube down there. I just checked in on him when I put my red bird back and he looks close to death. Hopefully (praying) in the morning he will be better.

Again, thank you!


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## altgirl35

Poor little guy, I wouldn't feel bad about forcing it at this point 
If he doesn't get something into him he is going to die anyways 
Mbe lube it up with a little olive oil
Mbe cut the end if a qtip and poke it right in the center if his throat, right down the middle


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## altgirl35

Mbe you will be able to he the tube down
I'm assuming you have a French catheter? 
Little but bigger than a qtip stick?
Is it the stiff kind or the flexible kind?


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## altgirl35

Putting liquid in a a baby's mouth is risky if your not getting it past his glottis


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## Lainey1129

The kind the vet gave me is very flexible. I don't know what it is called. It has two holes for the feed. One is at the bottom on one side and other is a smaller hole on the other. It is a thin one but probably six inches long.

We tried the Q-Tip thing a couple days ago. I wasn't able to get it down but the my dad tried and was able to get it further down than I could (with some force). There was some blood at that time and the next day was when I found the bloody meaty thing in his mouth. I don't know of any re-habbers in this area otherwise I would send him there. I will see what I can do today (if he is still alive when I get out there). I'm going out now to check on all my babies, will let you know later.

Thanks for all the help!


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## altgirl35

Yeah he probably knocked of a chunk of canker
But like I said he will def die if he doesn't get enough fluids and food so its worth a shot


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## Lainey1129

I did it!!!!! Thanks for the olive oil hint. It still took several attempts but I was able to feed him some bird formula! I didn't want to give him too much so he got a couple teaspoons for now. I will feed him again later. Afterwards, I crushed up a metro pill and got that down too. His eyes are open now.

No matter what happens, I know I gave it my all thanks to all of the helpful advice I have received on this page.


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## Jay3

When I had a 2 week old with canker that was nearly closing the throat, and a lump on her neck, I fed her formula with an eye dropper. I just made sure to put it way to the back of the throat, and over the tongue, and it would go right down. It can be done without a tube. With a tube, I always grease it up with a bit of olive oil also.


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## altgirl35

YAY Lainey!!! Good job, hopefully with your support feedings he can get thru this!
I would feed a little on the watery side till late tmrw
Get him good and hydrated


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## Lainey1129

I fed him again this evening, his eyes are still open but he is still breathing with an open mouth. I think the eye dropper is a good idea because to be honest, tube feeding still makes me a little nervous. I'll let him rest for the rest of the night and resume tomorrow morning. 

One question for anyone that knows. I have been treating Squeakers (approx. 6 weeks old) a whole Metro tablet for over 10 days now. The canker shrunk quite a bit is is still on the larger size and is now very hard. Should the treatment continue? If so, how long should I go?

I looked over every pigeon supply store I know and none of them have Ronidazole powder (loft treatment) in stock. They only have pills. Should I buy the pills and switch the treatment up a little to avoid the pigeons building a resistance to it?


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> I fed him again this evening, his eyes are still open but he is still breathing with an open mouth. I think the eye dropper is a good idea because to be honest, tube feeding still makes me a little nervous. I'll let him rest for the rest of the night and resume tomorrow morning.
> 
> One question for anyone that knows. I have been treating Squeakers (approx. 6 weeks old) a whole Metro tablet for over 10 days now. The canker shrunk quite a bit is is still on the larger size and is now very hard. Should the treatment continue? If so, how long should I go?
> 
> I looked over every pigeon supply store I know and none of them have Ronidazole powder (loft treatment) in stock. They only have pills. Should I buy the pills and switch the treatment up a little to avoid the pigeons building a resistance to it?



How may mg is a whole Metro pill? He should be getting about 30 mg daily.
No to the pills, if you are planning on putting them in the water. Tablets don't mix well in water. Giving them stronger then what they should have isn't going to help to not build a resistance. It can hurt the bird.
Can you buy it online, from a pigeon supply?


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## Lainey1129

The Metro tablets I have are 60 mg. I will only give her half from now on. Other than the canker, Squeakers seems healthy although she is a little small for her age. The birds droppings are just as they are supposed to be. I only thought of getting the Ronidazole tablets to treat the babies with a different medication and give them a break from the Metro. Bad idea?

I suppose I should give the babies only 30 mg as well, ooops. 

I looked online at Foys and Siegal pigeons. Neither one of them have the Ronidazole powder in stock. I don't know of any other supply place. 

As I have taken over my fathers loft, I should also look into vaccinations. I'm not sure if these are purchased at a supply store along with needles and syringes or if I need to get these from a vet. What kind of vaccinations do you give your birds yearly?


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## Jay3

Here are some places you can get it. I didn't see where they were out ofit at Foy's. Looked like they had it. But these other places have it also.
http://pigeon-supplies-plus.myshopify.com/products/ronidazole-10-powder-100-grams
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/medications/canker-products/4035-ronidazole-powder-10
http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?products_id=561?osCsid=7n5ukmg634ukl6prslejno9pd6


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## Lainey1129

Thanks Jay, Foys has it but when you hit place in cart it says "out of stock please reorder a different size", and there are no other sizes, only tablets. I appreciate it. The first link I pressed on had it!


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## Msfreebird

Happy to see you were able to get some food into him! Once I had a tiny baby with canker completely blocking his throat. I got liquid metronidazole,and mixed it with Kaytee formula. I took my feeding tube and cut a point at the tip. I stretched the babies neck upward (gently) and 'twirled' the feeding tube right into his crop. It took a couple days for the canker to break up, but it did. 
This is the type I use, its soft and flexible. I have numerous sizes, this one is the smallest I have but you can't even get a crushed pill thru this one! Have to use liquid metro in this one.


10 days of metronidazole? You should be seeing alot of improvement by now, lumps should be going down!


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## Lainey1129

*Feeding tube*

Where do I get a feeding tube like this one? In a pigeon supply store? I haven't seen any in the online catalogs but perhaps I should search for them. Also, where can I get liquid metro? Is it only available at the avian vet?

Some birds have been on the metro for longer than 10 days. The lumps went down but some are now very hard and not getting smaller any longer. I am not sure what to do. I don't know if I should continue treatment. Since they are by the navel, my father insists he can make a small slit to let the canker out. I told him no more cutting!!!!!

I tube fed little Frack again this morning. (His brother is named Frick) Frack has a crop full of formula at the moment. When I went out there this morning it had a giant pea stuck in the back of his throat and I was able to get it out. I'm thinking of bringing him in because the parents are obviously trying to feed him. 

Perhaps I should bring the two birds of major concern to the vet. Every bird I brought there so far has died so I am a little concerned about going back to her. Any suggestions?


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## Msfreebird

You should be able to get liquid metronidazole from your vet, its usually used for cats and kittens. Also, that is a catheter used by vets for giving enemas to dogs and cats, comes in all sizes. They should be able to sell (or give) you one! 
Where your vet treated the other birds, they should be able to supply you with metro and catheter to treat the others without having to see them.
If they don't have liquid metro on hand (most do), they should be able to write you a prescription for it. Check with Walmart pharmacy....they have a $4.00 prescription list.


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## altgirl35

This is what I use (curved) for pigeons and doves
It's even small enough to tube a hatchling dove
http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/reh...edles/stainless-steel-straight-needles-9.html
They also sell feeding tubes if you look around on the website 
Not sure what size that is waynette, but they are cheap enough, you should buy a few different sizes


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## Lainey1129

Thanks everyone! I have feeding needles and a plastic one on order. Now the problem is the liquid metronidazole. The avian vet still hasn't called me back on that. The lady who answers the phone said she doesn't believe they have any of it in the office. I will try my dogs vet tomorrow but I wouldn't know the correct dosage for a baby. (I looked on Wamarts pets RX list and they don't carry it) I fed it some more formula now and he is resting with a full crop. I took him in the house to make the feedings easier on me and to prevent the parents from trying to shove peas down his throat. I put a little stuffed animal in his nest with him. I'm really stressed!


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## altgirl35

I melt the pills in water
I just really agitate it with the syringe to mix and quickly pull some up


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## altgirl35

Don't be stressed
Do you have him on a heating pad?


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## Lainey1129

No heating pad, it's quite warm in the house. I'll look into getting one of those as well. I'm going out shopping in a bit and out to dinner with my son just to get away. I'm sure I will have no problem finding one, do I put it in the nest with him or under his nest?


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## Jay3

altgirl35 said:


> This is what I use (curved) for pigeons and doves
> It's even small enough to tube a hatchling dove
> http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/reh...edles/stainless-steel-straight-needles-9.html
> They also sell feeding tubes if you look around on the website
> Not sure what size that is waynette, but they are cheap enough, you should buy a few different sizes



I like the curved needles too, and get them there also, but the ball on the end would make it harder if there is a lot of canker in the throat. Then the tube would probably be better.


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> Thanks everyone! I have feeding needles and a plastic one on order. Now the problem is the liquid metronidazole. The avian vet still hasn't called me back on that. The lady who answers the phone said she doesn't believe they have any of it in the office. I will try my dogs vet tomorrow but I wouldn't know the correct dosage for a baby. (I looked on Wamarts pets RX list and they don't carry it) I fed it some more formula now and he is resting with a full crop. *I took him in the house to make the feedings easier on me and to prevent the parents from trying to shove peas down his throat. *I put a little stuffed animal in his nest with him. I'm really stressed!



With that much canker, it can be dangerous letting the parents feed. Better to pull him in anyway if you're treating a baby, as you can monitor him better, and can tell how much he is eating as you control it. I pull both babies in the nest and treat both and feed them.


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> No heating pad, it's quite warm in the house. I'll look into getting one of those as well. I'm going out shopping in a bit and out to dinner with my son just to get away. I'm sure I will have no problem finding one, *do I put it in the nest with him or under his nest?*


*

*


Most put it in the cage, cover it with a towel, and put the nest over that. Make sure you get a heating pad that doesn't automatically shut off every couple of hours. They're getting harder to find, but you can get them online. Amazon has them fairly cheap.


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## altgirl35

If you can't find one that doesn't shut off after 2 hrs
You can see if petco it pet smart has a reptile heater that people put under the tank
Or can use heating pad during the day when you can set an alarm to reset it every 2 hrs and get those therma care things you can put on you back, I think those stay warm for 8 hrs, handwarmers stay hot a long time to but hard to find this time if year 
Sqyirrels n more sells them too
Little babe like that def needs a heat even in a warm room


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## Lainey1129

Was unable to find a heating pad that doesn't shut off, I didn't even think of PetSmart. I will try again tomorrow or look online at Amazon.

I will also pull the brother first thing in the morning and hand feed him. The brother is well fed and has been on Metro for about 5 days or so. His canker is in the navel area and shrinking.

The bird seems to be doing well although he hates being tube fed but seems satisfied afterwards. Today was day 3 of being treated with Metro so hopefully I will see some improvement soon. He is still breathing with his mouth open though, I wonder if something more is going on.

I don't know what I would have done without all your advice and links. Soon, I will have everything that I need to get and keep a healthy loft. Thanks ladies and gentlemen!


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## Jay3

You sure are working hard at it. You are treating the parents, right? You're doing a good job.


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## Lainey1129

I went in the loft the past two nights and gave the parents Metro tablets. I'm glad I ordered more yesterday.

All these years I took my father for granted, I never knew how much work really went into these birds. My baby is peeping for food now, I had better get going.


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## altgirl35

He could have aspirated on fluids when you were trying to get meds into him
If you put your ear on his back, listen for clicking or moist sounding breaths
If you hear that, start him on an antibiotic for at least 7 days


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## Lainey1129

I am so glad that you wrote this. After reading, I listened and heard a clicking sound. I just started him on 5 units of Baytril (I had it left over). Funny thing is, I was wondering if I should put him on an antibiotic because of that meaty thing that was in his mouth. I didn't know if something happened to him when my dad put the Q-Tip down his throat. Thank you again!


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## altgirl35

How's the baby today?


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## Lainey1129

I'm really not sure on how the baby is doing to be honest. All I can say at this time is that she is hanging in there so far. She is still on the baytril liquid 2x a day, still breathing with an open beak. The canker appears to be gone (at least to my eye alone as I no longer see the yellow in her throat) and there is no smell in her mouth. I have been tube feeding her the Kaytee several times a day (she fights me tooth and nail as I am doing it). I am now able to put a quarter of a metro pill down her throat and follow that with the other quarter. Tonight I soaked some oats and she was able to swallow them. What bothers me is that I see a lump on the right hand side of her throat and I am not sure if something was damaged when my dad jammed the Q-Tip down there (she also was her right eye closed most of the time). I am waking up early tomorrow and seeing if the Avian vet has time to see her. My father insists that she won't make it and for me to allow him to put her out of her misery. I keep remembering Jays posts telling me that he had babies on the verge of death and they healed nicely. I'm including two pictures, one is both of the birds and the second is the baby birds lump.

On a more positive note, her brothers navel canker is almost gone and it is down to the size of a pea. He was born two days before her and is almost triple her size.

Another baby I was treating had the canker completely disappear.

There is one more bird that concerns me beside the baby. He has been on Metro for a long time and his canker is no longer shrinking it is just a hard lump in the navel area. He is quite small for his age and my dad said that he had a rough start and will never grow a normal size. I don't know if I should continue treatment on him as it has been three weeks or more.

The bird with the splay leg is doing well with his feet taped together. He gets out of his nest and walks around on the loft floor without a care in the world! This is the only bird that does not run from me. If I put my hand down on the floor he comes right up on my hand. I just love my birds!

If you have any suggestions I would love to hear them. I am terrified that the vet will tell me to put her to sleep. If I knew she was suffering I would end it but I just can't tell.


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## Jay3

The lump could be canker. In stubborn cases, many have used 2 different canker meds together. Maybe they need that.
Why does everyone want to kill a bird when it gets sick? They have a very strong constitution, and usually get better. Why are you terrified that the vet will say to put her to sleep? What difference does it make what the vet says? I have had a couple of birds that the vet didn't think would make it. By the grace of God, they are fine today. You need to believe in them, and in their ability to heal. You need to fight for them. Don't let anyone tell you that they won't make it, or that taking their life is the answer. Taking their life is giving up on them, and not giving them a chance to the life they deserve, and want. Do you really want to make that decision for them? Believe in them, and in a cure for their illness. I would try 2 meds for the canker if I had to. It's better than giving up on them.


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## Lainey1129

Jay3, I just don't have faith in this Avian vet. I have brought two birds to her and they are both dead now. If there was a different vet in the area, I would bring her there. I lost faith. I have paid a lot of money, just to bury my birds. Not only does it break my heart every time but I feel that I was somehow to blame.

I'm all game to give her two different medications for the canker. In addition to the Metro I also have Avio 4-1 tablets. Not only does it say it treats crop canker but also a wide variety of other things. The main ingredient is Ronidazole. Is this a good one to give her? Do I give her half of one and half of the other or do I cut off the metro? What would you recommend? I think I have more pills on order also. I have lost track of everything I ordered but I know what is already here. Maybe the vet will have something in a prescription that is stronger.

My answer is not to kill anything. I love animals and if they can be saved, I'm all for it no matter what it takes. I figured if I take her to the vet and they do the cultures, they may have the answer for me and a prescription medication to bring home. I have been saving her droppings, maybe they need to be tested as well.

All I can say is that I have grown very fond of my birds and I don't wish to give up on any of them. I am practically killing myself and racking my brain and everybody else s for the answers. The lofts have never been as clean as there are now, I scrape everyday, I give fresh food and water, I tube feed babies and hand feed others. These are not the actions of someone that wants to give up. Please don't forget Jay3 that even though I was raised around birds my whole life, I have only been taking care of them for a month. The conditions in the lofts were deplorable before I walked in there and saw it.

Thanks again!


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## Jay3

I know you are trying very hard. I don't doubt that at all. You're doing good. 4 in 1's are normally good for much, as they have different meds in them, but not enough of any one med to be useful. Ronidazole would be a good choice if you had that, but I don't have much faith in 4 in 1's. How long has she been on the Metro?


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## Lainey1129

My little baby has only been on the metro for 4 days (30 mg). So, as far as she is concerned, I can keep her on it for a bit longer while I order those other tablets. I have had much success with the Metro on several birds.

Another youngster (about 7 weeks old) has been on it for about 20 days (maybe longer). This youngsters canker was caught late. The canker in her navel is no longer shrinking but is now just a hard ball that isn't budging. It is this bird that causes me concern. If I keep giving her the metro, it is doing no good. but I don't know what will happen if I stop. She is very tiny in size. Maybe I should try the Avio on her until I can get pure Ronidazole?

Do you think I should take these birds to the vet or wait a while longer? Between surgery and ordered medications, I left my bank account in a bad state.

I do respect your opinion.


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## altgirl35

I think you are doing a great job, the worst baby keep treating with abs and metro
Give te meds a chance to do their work, on that lump your seeing 
Full 10 days and reassess from there
Baby is alive and vet won't be able to recommend anything different at this point
As for the other navel guy I think jay gave you some great advice 
I have used spartrix too, didn't know I could use them at the same time! Thanx jay!


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## altgirl35

Navel guy could have a scar tissue there too


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## Lainey1129

*Medication purchased and it worked!!!!*

I have a serious testimonial that I have to give. I had purchased something called Tri-Coli Stop. It was rather expensive but it stated that it gets rid of 99.8 percent of canker in just one use. It is made of all natural products and also claims to clean out the liver of the pigeon. The capsules are rather large and out of sheer desperation, I gave one yesterday to the bird with the navel canker if not for anything else, but to help the liver in this bird that has been on Metro for over 20 days. I went to the loft this morning and felt for the lump. This lump that has not been shrinking for over 10 days is almost completely gone!! I was so excited that I gave him another one today!!!

I wish I could get one of those big capsules down the babies throat but there is no possible way!

To anyone with doubts on this product, I have to say that it worked on my little Squeakers.


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## altgirl35

Wow!!!!yay!!!


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## spirit wings

Im going to add that I can see your father really needs to let someone else take over this loft. I would stop all babies being hatched now, either by seperating the pairs or using fake eggs or both for hatch control, the birds are passing on canker which means the birds are low in immunities and health. the band fiasco is just a shame the bird had to endure that, a mistake which is really very sad for both bird and Father. I would stop the breeding and then take care of what is there untill it is time the numbers go down from age or finding a place for some of them or all.


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## Lainey1129

Spirit Wings- My father did get someone to take over his lofts... me. I am waiting on a shipment of wooden eggs as we speak. Any eggs that are now in the loft will be replaced as soon as they arrive as there are a couple eggs that have been laid within the past couple days. I have no intention of allowing any more hatches in the loft. The problem is that it is the prisoners that are laying the eggs because I can't put them in the other loft. In the meantime, the birds that appear ill are being quarantined and medicated. 

My little red hen with the splay leg is now doing fine and the leg is healing nicely. I took the bandages and tape off today to check on the leg and change the dirty bandages. Although the leg is not completely healed, it is well on its way. It was definitely a tragedy for that beautiful baby, and trust me when I tell you, my father still has not heard the last of it from me for banding the bird so late.

My fathers friend will take some of the birds when the loft is healthy. From the bottom of my heart I am trying to do all I can to get the birds to a healthy state. I ordered pigeon vitamin liquid and added this to the water yesterday, I forgot what the label said but I think it is added 2 or 3 times a week. My dad said he never gave vitamins to the birds. I told him that I do and that he relinquished any rights to these birds when he got too sick to care for them and never asked for help.


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## altgirl35

One thing I do with my cockatiels is take 1 egg at at a time boil it 
Allow it to cool mark it and do another one
Works as good as fake eggs!


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## Lainey1129

I got my fake eggs today and already replaced the real ones with the fakes. LOL, boiling them sounds like a good idea, I never thought of that. When I run out of the fakes I will do that if they continue to mate.


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## Msfreebird

I just got 3 dozen MORE Fake eggs!!!! These guys are VERY Sneaky!!


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## Jay3

They sure are. I've used the same wooden ones for several years, and they're great, but the last time I ordered some from Jedd's, they were no good. When I tried to wash them, the paint peeled off. They were awful, so they exchanged them for some solid plastic ones that are great. The only thing is that it's hard to tell if they are fake or real. You really have to check them. I'm going to send for some more. 
Waynette, what kind do you use, and where do you get them?


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## Lainey1129

They are sneaky, I just caught a pair today building a nest on the floor in the prisoner loft. The male would find straw and feathers and bring them over to the female which was laying on the ground. I put a nest bowl there with some straw in it to make their life a little easier. The female is now laying in the nest but as soon as those eggs are laid, they will be replaced. They may be sneaky, but I am sneakier!


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## Lainey1129

*Vet*

By the way, I brought both my babies to the vet today. They both tested positive for canker but the good news is that it is dead. The lungs are clear on both the birds. My baby will be on Batril for a few more days and both birds will be on Nystatin. She told me exactly how much to feed the small one 3X a day so we can fatten him up. He only weighed 100 grams. His brother weighs 200 grams. She told me that it looks like he will make it with some TLC. I have plenty of that.


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> By the way, I brought both my babies to the vet today. *They both tested positive for canker but the good news is that it is dead.* The lungs are clear on both the birds. My baby will be on Batril for a few more days and both birds will be on Nystatin. She told me exactly how much to feed the small one 3X a day so we can fatten him up. He only weighed 100 grams. His brother weighs 200 grams. She told me that it looks like he will make it with some TLC. I have plenty of that.


What does that mean exactly? If they test positive for canker, then they have canker. Either they have it or they don't. I don't understand.


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## Lainey1129

Okay, from what she said is that when she swabbed the throats she found traces of the parasite but they were no longer moving, they are dead. She said the body will take care of this on its own from here. Hopefully it will drop down the crop and be disposed of. She said to continue the metro for 3 more days and then to stop. If the lump does not go down to notify her. I was stumped also but that is what she said. 

I don't know Jay, that's what she said and all I can do is believe her. I hope she is right!


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## Jay3

I'd give the Metro till the lump is gone. That's how my vet would do it.


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## altgirl35

How the bbs doin?


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## altgirl35

I would give metro till its gone too
It's a safe drug with a wide margin of safety as far as dosing 
I actually go a little longer once the canker disappears 
Just make sure its really knocked out so I don't have to start all over again with the meds if it comes back


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## Jay3

altgirl35 said:


> I would give metro till its gone too
> It's a safe drug with a wide margin of safety as far as dosing
> *I actually go a little longer once the canker disappears
> Just make sure its really knocked out so I don't have to start all over again with the meds if it comes back*


*

*


I do the same thing.


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## Lainey1129

The baby with the lump in throat was found dead in the cage the morning after he went to the vet. I wish I knew what happened because when he went in there the night before he was fine. I cried my eyes out the entire day.

The other baby is doing fine. I have to hand feed him several times a day but he seems very happy and healthy. His mother laid two more eggs which I will replace with wooden ones today. With everything that has been happening, I forgot to remove the father from the loft. As soon as I saw the eggs, I quickly placed him in the prisoner loft. They had four babies this summer and all four had canker. 

I am at a loss as several birds in the loft look sick to me. I started treating the loft with Amoxicillian in the water, today will be day three. Problem is, I don't know what the problem is. Some look ruffled, don't want to fly much, the droppings are weird, and some birds wings are shaking. The only thing I can do is treat the whole loft and pray. It states 21 days for paratyphoid. 

I found rat droppings in the garage part where the food is kept in metal containers. I set rat traps and caught a rat. This whole situation is a mess. I need to figure out what is going on and how to fix it or I am going to loose my mind. 

I'm sure that it is not a good thing to treat whatever healthy birds are in there with an antibiotic for 21 days. Can I add a probiotic to the water with the antibiotic or do I need to wait? If someone can help that would be great.


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## altgirl35

Oh no  I'm so very sorry 
Can't advise on treating lofts since I don't have a loft, but shouldn't hurt to treat everyone
Stay strong you will get everything under control


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## pigeonlover007

which two colours if breeds will give self whites other then white pigeons can anyone help


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> The baby with the lump in throat was found dead in the cage the morning after he went to the vet. I wish I knew what happened because when he went in there the night before he was fine. I cried my eyes out the entire day.
> 
> The other baby is doing fine. I have to hand feed him several times a day but he seems very happy and healthy. His mother laid two more eggs which I will replace with wooden ones today. With everything that has been happening, I forgot to remove the father from the loft. As soon as I saw the eggs, I quickly placed him in the prisoner loft. They had four babies this summer and all four had canker.
> If they keep having babies with canker, then it is because they need to be treated. Were they treated, and what with, and for how long? You can just replace the eggs when they have them.
> 
> I am at a loss as several birds in the loft look sick to me. I started treating the loft with Amoxicillian in the water, today will be day three. Problem is, I don't know what the problem is. Some look ruffled, don't want to fly much, the droppings are weird, and some birds wings are shaking. The only thing I can do is treat the whole loft and pray. It states 21 days for paratyphoid.
> It could be paratyphoid. If you have that in the loft, then all need to be treated. The sick ones should be pulled and treated individually with pills, and the loft treated in the water. Treating actual birds that are obviously sick, with medicine in the drinking water isn't enough. They usually don't drink enough, and therefore don't get enough medicine.
> I found rat droppings in the garage part where the food is kept in metal containers. I set rat traps and caught a rat.
> If there is one, then there are more, unfortunately.
> This whole situation is a mess. I need to figure out what is going on and how to fix it or I am going to loose my mind.
> Make sure no rats can get to the food, or into the loft.
> 
> I'm sure that it is not a good thing to treat whatever healthy birds are in there with an antibiotic for 21 days.
> 
> All birds must be treated if it is Paratyphoid. A poop sample checked by vet should show what it is you are dealing with.
> Can I add a probiotic to the water with the antibiotic or do I need to wait?
> Antibiotics kill bacteria. Both good and bad. Probiotics are the good bacteria that you want in their gut. So the antibiotics will just kill the probiotics. Better to wait till they're done with meds.
> 
> If someone can help that would be great.


...............................................................................................


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## Lainey1129

Jay, I truly appreciate all the help you have given me, I am overwhelmed.

If they keep having babies with canker, then it is because they need to be treated. Were they treated, and what with, and for how long? You can just replace the eggs when they have them. I gave the parents Metro Pills for 5 days. I do not want them to have any more babies (at least this year).

I'm not sure if it is paratyphoid, I am guessing. I don't have enough room to pull all of the birds that look sick. I also have a pair of birds on eggs. (Nothing wrong with this pairs babies or this pair of birds) The eggs are almost ready to hatch and I will feel like I killed them if I remove them now. Is shaky wings a sign of paratyphoid? Also there is bright green poop in the loft and huge piles I might add. Doesn't look like a pigeon could poop that much. A couple birds are ruffled looking, are these all signs?

I will never take any bird back to that vet. I simply have no faith any longer. 

The rats cannot get into the food but they are putting holes in walls trying to get into the loft. I fix one hole, another appears. It is a never ending battle.

Okay, I will try to catch each sick bird and put an amox. down its throat and treat the rest in the water. I never realized how much work this would be!


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> Jay, I truly appreciate all the help you have given me, I am overwhelmed.
> 
> If they keep having babies with canker, then it is because they need to be treated. Were they treated, and what with, and for how long? You can just replace the eggs when they have them. I gave the parents Metro Pills for 5 days. I do not want them to have any more babies (at least this year).
> 
> Metro doesn't treat canker, so they were never treated for canker if what they got was Metro.
> I'm not sure if it is paratyphoid, I am guessing. I don't have enough room to pull all of the birds that look sick. I also have a pair of birds on eggs. (Nothing wrong with this pairs babies or this pair of birds) The eggs are almost ready to hatch and I will feel like I killed them if I remove them now. Is shaky wings a sign of paratyphoid? Also there is bright green poop in the loft and huge piles I might add. Doesn't look like a pigeon could poop that much. A couple birds are ruffled looking, are these all signs?
> Yes they are.
> 
> I will never take any bird back to that vet. I simply have no faith any longer.
> Having a bad experience with one vet, doesn't mean that they are all idiots. There are some good ones out there, and unfortunately sometimes they are needed.
> 
> The rats cannot get into the food but they are putting holes in walls trying to get into the loft. I fix one hole, another appears. It is a never ending battle.
> They are very determined, and may find a way in. What are the walls made of?
> 
> Okay, I will try to catch each sick bird and put an amox. down its throat and treat the rest in the water. I never realized how much work this would be!


 And yes, it can be a lot of work. But you have just started to change the conditions in the loft, when it gets better, things will settle down for you. Hang in there!


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## altgirl35

Get some peppermint oil and cottonballs
Few drops on a cottonballs around the lofts will help deter the rats
Can also go to a dollar store and pick up a bunch of cayenne pepper and sprinkle it around the lofts too
Rats won't like that!!! Lol


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## Lainey1129

Thank you! I will have to try this! Who would of thought that cayenne pepper/peppermint oil soaked cotton balls would get rid of rats? I'm on it!


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## Jay3

It may help, but I don't think it will get rid of the rats.


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## Lainey1129

Jay, I have been treating all the birds with canker with Metro. The exact name of the drug is Metronidazolum 60 mg. It has helped all of the birds with canker in the navel but it is not helped any bird so far with canker in the throat. Of the 6 baby birds infected, 3 were in the throat, those birds are all dead and the others are alive and doing well. I do have other canker pills that I have ordered but I have not opened them yet. So that is what I gave the parents of the infected birds after their last round of canker stricken babies. Those birds will no longer breed.

My fathers friend came over tonight and looked in the lofts. He couldn't believe how clean they were. He was impressed and offered to give me a pair of pigeons (I forgot the name of them but he said they are the smallest pigeons in the world) and I turned them down. I don't want any more birds!

The walls are drywall with a concrete base. The rats are very determined to get into the loft but I am determined to keep them out. My husband is a contractor and when we find a hole, we fill it in with concrete. They tried to chew through the loft part so we put a metal plate along the bottom wall and are monitoring it, so far no break ins.


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## altgirl35

Rats are very very smart
I've tried have a hearting them and I could get the babies but never the adults
They were attracted to my bird feeders
I made trays to catch the seed and stop it from falling on the ground and I havnt seen any in a long time, and all the chipmunks are back
If there is any food source they can get to secure it 
Hopefully they will move onto somewhere else where food is easier to get to


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## Jay3

Sorry , I have no idea what the heck I was saying. Of course Metro treats canker. Sorry, I was in the middle of something else when I answered that, and have no idea where my brain was. Honestly! I always have great results with Metro. I prefer it actually. Sorry.

How long did you treat the parent birds with the Metronidazole, and how much did you give? Maybe you didn't treat long enough? 

How large an area are the walls that the rats are trying to get through? Is it possible to cover them with heavy gauge hardware cloth?

Good that you turned down the new birds. Just what you need now...................more birds! LOL. You're doing good!


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## Msfreebird

Lainey1129 said:


> Jay, I have been treating all the birds with canker with Metro. *The exact name of the drug is Metronidazolum 60 mg.* It has helped all of the birds with canker in the navel but it is not helped any bird so far with canker in the throat. Of the 6 baby birds infected, 3 were in the throat, those birds are all dead and the others are alive and doing well. I do have other canker pills that I have ordered but I have not opened them yet. So that is what I gave the parents of the infected birds after their last round of canker stricken babies. Those birds will no longer breed.
> 
> My fathers friend came over tonight and looked in the lofts. He couldn't believe how clean they were. He was impressed and offered to give me a pair of pigeons (I forgot the name of them but he said they are the smallest pigeons in the world) and I turned them down. I don't want any more birds!
> 
> The walls are drywall with a concrete base. The rats are very determined to get into the loft but I am determined to keep them out. My husband is a contractor and when we find a hole, we fill it in with concrete. They tried to chew through the loft part so we put a metal plate along the bottom wall and are monitoring it, so far no break ins.


What is Metronidazolum?! I just googled it, ...nothing. Where did you get it? How much of the 60mg pill are you giving each bird? Is it 'pure' metronidazole?
If it is, *it should be taking care of your canker issues. I'm finding it odd that your canker is lasting so long  I've never seen metronidazole come in a 60mg size. (I sometimes order the drugs/medications for work) The smallest I've seen is 250mg in pill form. Anything smaller is usually in the liquid form.
Did you ever order Ronidizole as I mentioned before?

Rats have to GO! I had rats break into my old loft in one night and killed half my birds (roughly 30)!! I tried humane trapping using a 'hav-a-heart' trap.....just caught 1 baby and dad was circling the trap trying to figure out how to get his screaming baby out! Never caught any more....their too smart! I ended up having to use drastic measures (against my nature) because my birds safety comes first.


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## Lainey1129

I ordered the Metronidazolem at Foys Pigeon Supply. It says each tablet contains 60 mg of Metronidazole. The babies (when they are being treated) get 1/2 a pill and the parents got a whole one (The bottle states for 2-3 days, and I gave it for 5 to the parents, the babies got it for as long as they needed it). The parents never did show any signs of the canker but every baby they had this year had it. I did order the Ronidizole, it is in the loft. The canker is under control with the surviving babies, it is gone except for on one. Her canker was extreme when I noticed it. There is still a very small lump and it is trying to expel itself through the navel but it is working its way out. The other babies lumps (caught early) just disappeared. 

Everybody is right, the rats have to go! I don't know what heavy gauge hardware cloth is or where I would buy it. The holes that appear are always on the bottom of the wall. From the garage area there is one loft inside. Once the rat enters the first wall there is about 6 inches and it would have to break through the loft wall to get in. That is why we placed the metal around that side of the loft. I monitor it daily for signs of break ins. Cheektowaga had a rat problem so the town issued totes. This is why they are now going into the garage. My dad and I went for food about a month ago and we didn't have enough room in the metal cans for all of it so we left out one bag on top of a step. About a week later I noticed that the bag had an opening and there was feed all over the step. The cleanup and war began at that point. In the whole area there are 5 traps set (one humane trap). We only caught one so far but we keep replenishing the peanut butter as ants are eating it. We just purchased 200 pounds of food yesterday to ensure we had enough room to hold it. Today I will try the cayenne pepper put all around the walls outside the loft and outside each building. I don't think I would put any in the loft itself? I don't think my birds would like that. Hopefully that will discourage any more from getting in.

I will do whatever I have to to keep those birds safe. Thanks everyone!


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## altgirl35

Actually birds don't mind Cayanne pepper, people actually put it in wild bird seed an suet to stop the squirrels from eating it
I will get you a link or hardware cloth
Can get it at Home Depot, its really the only wire that should be used to protect lofts and aviary's


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## altgirl35

Maximum should be 1/2 inch
http://m.homedepot.com/p/YARDGARD-3-ft-x-25-ft-19-Gauge-Galvanized-Hardware-Cloth-308225B/202515238


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## Lainey1129

Thank you so much for the link. This looks like the stuff that is used as a window to allow the prisoners to be able to leave the loft out a window and still stay confined. Is that what it is? Would I buy this and put it on the walls? Rats can't chew through this? I am imagining that I would put this on the walls inside the loft at the bottom and then outside the loft on the walls? Would I need to put wood over or under it?

I know I am a pain, I am just learning.


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## altgirl35

They can't chew thru it, so mbe use it with the patches or staple along the bottom of outside
Whatever works 
My guy also found this spray foam stuff that has a bitter agent in it so prevent rodents and bugs from chewing thru stuff
We used it to fill cracks in my pre release cage that I put my baby crows in 
They needed more room, but arnt protected against West Nile virus yet (I vaccinated them)
So I wanted it Mosquito proof


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## Jay3

Msfreebird said:


> What is Metronidazolum?! I just googled it, ...nothing. Where did you get it? How much of the 60mg pill are you giving each bird? Is it 'pure' metronidazole?
> If it is, *it should be taking care of your canker issues. I'm finding it odd that your canker is lasting so long  I've never seen metronidazole come in a 60mg size. (I sometimes order the drugs/medications for work) The smallest I've seen is 250mg in pill form. Anything smaller is usually in the liquid form.
> Did you ever order Ronidizole as I mentioned before?
> 
> Rats have to GO! I had rats break into my old loft in one night and killed half my birds (roughly 30)!! I tried humane trapping using a 'hav-a-heart' trap.....just caught 1 baby and dad was circling the trap trying to figure out how to get his screaming baby out! Never caught any more....their too smart! I ended up having to use drastic measures (against my nature) because my birds safety comes first.


Hi Waynette! It's the same thing as Metronidazole, and even Metro comes in 60 mg tablets now. Actually, they make more money this way. They try to tell you it's better, cause you can dose more accurately. In reality, it just costs more this way.


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## Jay3

You can buy a spray can of the hot pepper to spray on things. It burns their mouth. I only use it in emergency, and I don't like doing that. But rats trying to get into your loft _IS_ an emergency. Hardware stores and places like that sell it.


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## Jay3

The wire in the background is hardware cloth. It comes with 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch spaces in it. Easier to find the 1/2 inch in 19 gauge. You can buy different gauges of it. It should be the heavier gauge. Don't buy 23 gauge for example, as it is not strong enough. At lest 19 gauge.










I wouldn't just put it on the bottom. Rats have been know to climb walls and chew up higher. I'd go all the way up the wall with it. It's worth the piece of mind.


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## Jay3

And wanted to mention that normally you would treat for 5 to 7 days for canker, and most treat for 7 to 10 to make sure they know it's gone. Either the parents weren't treated long enough, or are maybe stressed. Not knowing the set up, I don't know.


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## pigeonlover007

*any archangel or fancy birds in london uk*

any one gt archangels or fancy birds in london or uk please call me 07456479984 thanks


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## altgirl35

I wouldn't have much faith in that vet either at this point 
Especially when the baby seemed to be improving
How is everyone doing today?


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## Lainey1129

Yeah, I think I may have found a different vet in the area. In the future, if needed, I will take them there. 

I do have a question regarding the surviving silver baby. He was removed from the nest before and I have been hand feeding him. Not a syringe but placing the grain in his mouth. He even started pecking at food but only very seldom does he get one. Today he does not want to eat at all. His chest area feels like air is in it (my dad said could be water) and when he squeaks he sounds hoarse. He makes a little sneezing sound. Anybody know what this could be? I can only force feed him so much and then he totally freaks out and fights me, tries to run away and twists his head away.

My red bird (splay leg and broken foot) is doing well. He is a very handsome bird and quite tame for a bird still in the loft. After the splay leg is fixed, do you think I can get a vet to fix his foot or is it too late? I can definitely tell that the foot is broken now that all the swelling is down.

Rat problem seems to be under control. No more droppings or holes in the wall. I continue to check daily.


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## altgirl35

Sometimes they do swallow air, I towel em tilt the head, extend the neck and push the air up and out
Make sure he is getting enough to eat that way, really difficult to fill them up one seed at time
Piji's don't necessarily like being tube fed
But they have no choice
I wrap em in a towel and just make them
Monitor his weight, gram scales are good for that
Learn what a healthy keel bone feels like
Not sure about the foot, usually broken bones need to be splinted within 48 hrs before they start to calcify
To repair a badly mended bone it needs to re broken and it means surgery
I'm sure he will adjust to life with a goofy foot


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## Jay3

That could very well be water in his crop. If you force it up and out, you could aspirate him. Have you smelled his breath? How does it smell? It sounds as though it could be sour crop, which can be caused by canker. Has he been drinking? Are you sure the crop is empty? It may be that it isn't emptying. Can you feel seed in there? If it isn't emptying, I would give maybe 4cc of warmed applesauce, the kind for human babies, as there is too much sugar in it, and you don't want that. That will help to change the PH of the crop, which can help to get things moving.


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## Lainey1129

Hi everybody! I tried to do the tilting head, stretching neck, and pushing air up and out but to no avail, I have no idea what I am doing. 

Today he woke up and did not want to eat at all again. There is no food in the crop, total empty but still felt like air further up, a little above the crop but below the throat. When I was feeding him the grain, I would mainly give him the peas and then some misc smaller seeds. I could feel the crop full with he peas. 

He makes a sneezing sound and when he does, I can feel little puffs of air come out through his nostrils. I did the only humane thing I could do and that was to tube feed him. I didn't overfill his crop, just enough so I could see and feel the crop which was enlarged. He seems satisfied for now but I still need to figure out what is going on. I also removed the water from his cage as now he will be getting his water in the Kaytee Exact. Should I put it back?

I did smell his breath before feeding and there was no smell. If this bird dies on me I will flip out. He is the very last brother or sister to my bird I got surgery on.


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## Lainey1129

Second tube feeding today was successful. Although he doesn't like it, he is very satisfied afterwards.

I put him in the loft today for a few minutes up on the feeder where my red bird with the leg problem likes to sit. That red bird will groom my little baby's head and the baby seems to like it. All of a sudden, my baby's mother flew down on the other side of him and bit him on the back of the neck so hard that he let out a loud squeak. What is with this mother? First she stopped feeding him and now she is attacking him? 

Between yesterday and today my father and I sprayed all of the birds in the regular loft for lice. No more fluffed up lazy looking birds. Tomorrow we will spray the prisoners. 

I have been putting vitamins in the water 3 times a week and a probiotic 2 times a week. The other 2 days are just plain water. I hope I am doing right by these birds, they do look healthy now.


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## altgirl35

Mbe she forgot him or is mad that he hasn't been around and she scolded him and said "where the hell have you been!"
I really don't know
I would let him have water and seed for sure
U have him on anti biotics right? Sorry I can't remember alot going on here
I would def give him a round of abs 7-10 days in case he has something respitory going on
It's possible he has a ruptured air sack
I would wait and see if it goes down on its own
Can pull air out with a needle n syringe if he is uncomfortable 
Mbe you ought to have new vet do it though


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## Lainey1129

He doesn't appear to be uncomfortable any longer and it is not too much air that I think needs to be drained. I will keep an eye on it. I did the needle thing with the other bird that had that and his got better after a day or so, too bad my fathers cutting and the surgery killed him.

This bird was never on antibiotics, the smaller one was. I gave them away when he died because I got too upset when I opened the fridge and saw it. I have amox. tablets or powder, would that work for respiratory illness? 

Oh yeah, the other day I was showing my father the bird that had the canker trying to escape the body. He pushed on it and the canker came right out. There was no blood and the bird is doing great!


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## altgirl35

Hey! How bout that! Pops does know a thing or two!
Yes amoxy will work
For me to recommend a dose though I need the strength of the med and babies weight in grams
Mbe jay can help with dose too or waynette


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## Lainey1129

The baby's weight is slightly over 200 grams. The amoxicillin is 10 mg. If anyone has the correct dose it would be great!

Yeah, I had to give Dad credit where it is due. I didn't even know what he was doing, he was very sneaky about it. All of a sudden he said, "here". I looked in his hand and saw a lump of canker. I put peroxide on the spot that he pulled it from. 

Thank you again everyone!

By the way, it looks like one of his nostrils may have something in it. Maybe that is the reason for sneezing? I tried to clean it off but something is inside. Any ideas how to get it out? Will it just work its way out?


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## altgirl35

Get a baby booga sucka! You know those little blue rubber bulbs you use to clean a baby's nose


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## altgirl35

Will try to find willowbrook book in the morning 
And get u a dose
Is it a 10mg pill?


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## Charis

I think the baby has canker rather than respiratory.

By the way, amoxi dose has a range of 50-150mg/kg, depending on the illness.


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## Lainey1129

The bottle states that each pill contains 10 mg of Amox. It also states 1 tablet (adult birds I would imagine) by mouth for 7 days and 14 days for paratyphoid. I will wait to see what the dose is...and thank you.

Why does this sound like canker to you Charis? I can't feel a lump. This bird was treated earlier for canker, he had it in the navel. I feel no lumps, just air. I am going to get him and feed him now, even though he is not chirping for food. I will also try squeezing air out again now that his stomach is empty.

I am beginning to think this may be serious and I am a little nervous.


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## Lainey1129

Just wanted you to know that when I went to get the bird it had some formula on his beak. He must have thrown up at some point last night. I cleaned him up with a warm wet paper towel and squeezed a little air out before feeding. He began sneezing before I fed him but the sneezing got worse after the tube feed. I had nobody here to help with the tube feed and he fought me tooth and nail. He has stopped sneezing and is laying in his nest now.

I am very worried for this little bird. I am doing all I can but I feel as if I usually fail. Out of the 6 birds I have treated, 3 have already died and one is scaring the heck out of me. Only two have been successfully treated. I don't like these odds. The only hope I hang on to is that the three which died had the canker in the throat and this one did not.


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## altgirl35

Oh boy, did he get any meds last night that may have upset his tummy?
If pills are for birds I would go ahead and give it to him
Good idea to give metro with abs especially cillins because yeast can get out of control and te metro will prevent that and cover if canker is rearing its ugly head again
Just keep going your doing the best you can
Keep him on a heating pad on low to help him out, let him choose if he wants to be on it or not
How much food are you tubing in?


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## Msfreebird

The Amoxicillin dose from the 2 sources I use are......
25-50 mg/bird (average size pigeon) divided daily.
OR
50mg per pigeon per day in divided doses

So if it were me, and this is a small pigeon, I would give 20mg twice a day (7-10 days)


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## altgirl35

Sounds good to me waynette!
Still havnt found my damn willowbrook book!
What the hell did I do with it!


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## Msfreebird

altgirl35 said:


> Sounds good to me waynette!
> Still havnt found my damn willowbrook book!
> What the hell did I do with it!


I'll help you look for it! LOL


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## Jay3

I don't remember how old is this baby?


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## Lainey1129

Charis said:


> I think the baby has canker rather than respiratory.
> 
> By the way, amoxi dose has a range of 50-150mg/kg, depending on the illness.


Okay everybody, I freaked out and took the bird to a vet. I tried to get a different avian but they told me on the phone that they do not take pigeons and to bring it to the SPCA. I ended up bringing it to the same vet. Lucky for me, there was a different vet on call there.

There is no respiratory problems, his lungs and heart sound good. No torn air sac. He tested negative for fungal or bacterial infections. He also tested negative for canker but the vet said he could see some white plac (sp?) at the back of his throat. He believes that canker might be rearing its head again.

He sent me home with the following prescriptions:
Metronidazole liquid to be given 2x day for 14 days
Metoclopromide syrup to be given 2X day for 14 days (get crop moving)
Meloxicam?Metacam to be given 1X a day for 7 days (anti inflammatory and pain)

He said the bird should be feeling better by Monday but if not, bring him back in for XRays and blood work. I don't think I can afford all that so please, wish me luck.

He also stated that I should feed the bird 10 or 15 ML of the Kaytee 2 or 3 times a day. I think that is too little, don't you? I was giving him 25 as of this morning. He weighs exactly 237 grams.


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## Lainey1129

Also, I want to thank all of you for trying to pull together to get me the correct dosage. I am so glad that I came across all of you! Everyone of you have been caring and so nice.


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## altgirl35

I feed them alot more than that
Can feed smaller amount more often too
I fill crop till it feels like a marshmallow, squishy but firm, know what I mean?
Then feed again when empty 
I usually feed 3 times a day, unless they are really tiny then 4
And then 2 as they start eating in thier own, in the morning and before bed
Then drop feedings as they eat more and more 
Sounds like you should stick with this vet
Did he see anything in his nostril?


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## Lainey1129

I was able to get whatever it was in his nostril out with a warm washcloth just a few minutes ago. I was so worried about the bird not eating and sneezing that I forgot to ask him.


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## altgirl35

Is he still sneezing?


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## Lainey1129

He was but not as much. He must of just thrown up again because I went to check on him and there was formula under the brick he was standing on and dried on his mouth and beak. OMG, I am so stressed right now and scared. Maybe all the medications made him vomit. He went for a drink of water, then sneezed, then opened his beak up very large and closed his eyes. I'm going to leave him alone for a while, I will feed him in a couple hours or so.


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## Lainey1129

I gave the bird his medications last night and then fed him. I woke up to vomit in his cage this morning. I tried something new this morning, I gave him medications first, waited an hour, and then tube fed. So far no vomit. 

I wanted to see if it was the meds or the food that caused this. I was afraid with his vomiting that the medications were also being expelled. Is it okay to do it this way? The doctors gave me no distinct times to give the meds.

He is not looking any better and still has no appetite. At this time I am expecting the worst but hoping for the best. I put him outside today in a small cage with some water. I think the fresh air and sunshine may make him feel better. On a positive note, he flew out of my hands three times today, he has run away in the past but never flew.


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## Jay3

Metronidazole is usually given once a day. And it does often cause vomiting. He should be fed first, then medicated. Just as when people take meds that can make them vomit, they are supposed to take them after putting food in their stomach.Giving a couple of drops of Pepto Bismul will usually stop the vomiting. Give the Pepto 30 minutes before feeding and medicating.


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## Lainey1129

Jay3 said:


> Metronidazole is usually given once a day. And it does often cause vomiting. He should be fed first, then medicated. Just as when people take meds that can make them vomit, they are supposed to take them after putting food in their stomach.Giving a couple of drops of Pepto Bismul will usually stop the vomiting. Give the Pepto 30 minutes before feeding and medicating.


Jay, thank you so much for the advice. I will get some Pepto Bismul today. I don't know why he is on the Metronidazole 2X a day, maybe it is the strength. The bottle states 50 mg and it says to give 0.15 ml every 12 hours. I am surprised also that they have him on the Meloxicam only once a day. It is a small dose (0.03 ml) and it seems to me that he would need the anti-inflammatory/ pain killer, if his throat is swollen and sore. I wonder if I should give this to him twice a day. I just want him to be comfortable.


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## Jay3

I wouldn't give the Meloxicam twice a day, as too much of that could be harmful, and could cause him to bleed out. It's usually given once a day. I spoke with Charis, and she said that it could be increased to 0.05 once daily. But that's all, and that is if its concentration is 1.5 mg/ml.
As far as the Metro, he could be given 0.7 cc once daily. Most vets really don't understand pigeons well and how to treat them. They often go by the old formulas, and cut them in half and dose twice daily. They don't realize that many meds are more effective if done in one single dose.


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## Lainey1129

Thank you so much Jay and also to Charis for your help. I bought the pepto and will give it to him tonight 1/2 hour before feeding and medicating him. I will also put his Meloxicam up to 5 units starting tomorrow.

These darn measuring syringes are marked are marked in ml so his regular dose was a little over 0.1 ml 2 times a day. Tomorrow I will start with a little over 0.2 ml and only dose him once daily. This liquid stuff makes me appreciate the pills. There were no guessing games there. I asked for the liquid because I thought it would be easier.


Again, thank you!!!!


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## altgirl35

Yeah us rehabbers dose metro twice a day too
Same with metacam if animal is in alot of pain
Once a day if its just for inflamation


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## Jay3

The vets dose was too low. A bird 237 grams should be getting 0.7cc once daily, not 0.2cc. You said it was 50 mg/ml. Are you sure it wasn't 250mg/ml ?
That would be about 0.2cc daily, but if it is 50 mg/ml, then he should be getting 0.7cc.


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## Jay3

For best results they should both be given once daily and at the correct dosage. If indeed the drug works well in one daily dosage, then why would you want to have to do it twice daily, which just stresses the bird out more.
These links back up the once a day dosage.


http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html#Meloxicam

http://www.blueridgewildlife.org/Articles/Basic Stabilization of Wildlife.pdf

http://www.fourthcrossingwildlife.com/PainReleifInNativeAnimals-AnneFowler.pdf

http://geiselmed.dartmouth.edu/arc/iacuc/analgesia_anesthesia/pdf/bird_dosage.pdf

http://www.irishwildlifematters.ie/animals/bird-drugs.html


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## Jay3

Sorry, I meant to say 0.7 for the Metro. Sorry for the typo, but I went back in and corrected the dosage.


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## Lainey1129

Jay3 said:


> The vets dose was too low. A bird 237 grams should be getting 0.7cc once daily, not 0.2cc. You said it was 50 mg/ml. Are you sure it wasn't 250mg/ml ?
> That would be about 0.2cc daily, but if it is 50 mg/ml, then he should be getting 0.7cc.


Jay, now I'm really stressed. My bottle states: METRONIDAZOLE 50mg/ml and he ordered 0.15 ml (has the syringe marked at a little over the 1 for dose) every 12 hours. Maybe I should just go back to the pill and give him 1/2 which is 30 mg? I don't know why he dosed it this way but the bird is not showing any improvement. He told me that the bird should be feeling better by Monday. UGGH, should I go back to the pill? At least I knew what I was doing.

Yes, the bird weighed 237 grams at his office. I remember that because when he said the weight I stated that he gained 37 grams since I brought him in the last time. 

Every time I try to help a bird and bring them to a vet it never works out. The low dosage might explain the lack of any improvement. 

If I went back to the pill would I only give 1/2? Thanks for the links, I will check them out now. This is a nightmare!


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## Jay3

I'm sorry you are feeling so stressed. I really am. I know how you are feeling. He just dosed too low, as has been done before, old dosages are used and they don't keep up. 
If it is 50 mg/ml, Then 0.7 would be right, once daily. I would honestly do that, and finish it up. I maybe would call the vets office just to check that the correct strength was put on the bottle, and that it was not a typo. My vet always uses the 250mg/ml. I don't think that calling and checking would be a bad idea. That would clear a lot up, if they just put the wrong amount on the bottle. Maybe they just filled it in fast and missed the 2 in 250?


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## altgirl35

Yeah dose is low, if it 50mg/ml and dose is 50mg/kg twice a day the dose should be a little over .2
So should double it if your going to dose once a day
Here's a dosage calc if you ever need it 
http://wildliferehabber.com/rehab-data/dosage-calculator


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## altgirl35

I believe ya about the dosing jay
Think its one of those things where opinions differ
And do whatever works for you
I've had success both ways, and it depends on what particular bird needs dosing
If its a baby I have have to feed constantly anyways I dose twice, if its a stressed out freaked out bird I will do once 
Some antivirals I have to dose 3 times a day
Some things like abs work better if dosed twice a day
Birds metabolize everything so quickly


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## Lainey1129

Thanks for being so understanding. I am having a problem converting ml to cc. He marked a syringe with a sticker that says "dose here" but it is a ml syringe. The sticker is right below the 0.1 mark. So, if I went by his dosage (that was wrong) and attempted to medicate the bird one time a day I would go just below the 0.2 mark which would double the dose. You said the correct dose is 7cc's once daily. So 7cc's equal how many ml? If they would have given me a cc syringe this would have made my life much easier but obviously an easier life is not in the cards for me or the poor bird. 

Are they trying to kill my animals? Between office visits, surgery, and medications I have given them $1,144.00 and every bird I brought to them is now dead or dying. That does not even include the hundreds of dollars I have spent on medications from Foys and Siegals to help the loft. I am not a rich woman and I have sacrificed my own needs to help these birds. Can you imagine my frustration? If it wasn't for all of you people I think I would probably have gone crazy by now. Now I am second guessing his doses on the other medication. (Sorry, venting)

My bird sits there, all fluffed up, one or both eyes closed most of the time and is counting on me to pull him through this and I am losing faith. He is never hungry and I literally have to force him to eat. 

I will call the vet tomorrow to ensure that the strength was not typed in incorrectly. In the meantime, I will try to figure out how to do this conversion.


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## Lainey1129

altgirl35 said:


> I believe ya about the dosing jay
> Think its one of those things where opinions differ
> And do whatever works for you
> I've had success both ways, and it depends on what particular bird needs dosing
> If its a baby I have have to feed constantly anyways I dose twice, if its a stressed out freaked out bird I will do once
> Some antivirals I have to dose 3 times a day
> Some things like abs work better if dosed twice a day
> Birds metabolize everything so quickly


This bird is completely stressed out, probably more than me. He is even pooing yellow. He doesn't chirp for food or flap his wings for it anymore. He attempts to escape when he sees the syringe coming towards him.


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## Jay3

altgirl35 said:


> I believe ya about the dosing jay
> *Think its one of those things where opinions differ*
> And do whatever works for you
> I've had success both ways, and it depends on what particular bird needs dosing
> If its a baby I have have to feed constantly anyways I dose twice, if its a stressed out freaked out bird I will do once
> *Some antivirals I have to dose 3 times a day*
> Some things like abs work better if dosed twice a day
> Birds metabolize everything so quickly



Jodi, we're talking about Metronidazole here, and not the many other meds.


----------



## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> Thanks for being so understanding. I am having a problem converting ml to cc. He marked a syringe with a sticker that says "dose here" but it is a ml syringe. The sticker is right below the 0.1 mark. So, if I went by his dosage (that was wrong) and attempted to medicate the bird one time a day I would go just below the 0.2 mark which would double the dose. You said the correct dose is 7cc's once daily. So 7cc's equal how many ml? If they would have given me a cc syringe this would have made my life much easier but obviously an easier life is not in the cards for me or the poor bird.
> 
> WHat do you have for a syringe? 1cc is the same things as iml
> Are they trying to kill my animals? Between office visits, surgery, and medications I have given them $1,144.00 and every bird I brought to them is now dead or dying. That does not even include the hundreds of dollars I have spent on medications from Foys and Siegals to help the loft. I am not a rich woman and I have sacrificed my own needs to help these birds. Can you imagine my frustration? If it wasn't for all of you people I think I would probably have gone crazy by now. Now I am second guessing his doses on the other medication. (Sorry, venting)
> I hear ya. Most of us are broke, and are going through the same thing, so I don't have to imagine, I live it.
> 
> My bird sits there, all fluffed up, one or both eyes closed most of the time and is counting on me to pull him through this and I am losing faith. He is never hungry and I literally have to force him to eat.
> 
> I will call the vet tomorrow to ensure that the strength was not typed in incorrectly. In the meantime, I will try to figure out how to do this conversion.


What type of syringe are you using? 1cc = 1 ml


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## Jay3

Lainey1129 said:


> This bird is completely stressed out, probably more than me. He is even pooing yellow. He doesn't chirp for food or flap his wings for it anymore. He attempts to escape when he sees the syringe coming towards him.


I asked earlier how old the bird is, as I don't remember. The yellow urates in the droppings, and the throat being raw are signs of canker. Under dosing will help the canker to build an immunity to the drug, that is why I want you to increase to the right amount. But until you do know for sure the correct strength of the drug, I agree with you that you should use the tablet. Make sure you give the Pepto 30 min before you feed and then medicate right after.
I have also asked you if you let the crop empty before feeding again. This is important, as you can cause crop problems by not doing so.


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## Lainey1129

Oh, thank you Jay. That is what I was stressing over? Okay, so now I have it, I will begin dosing 0.7 on the bird tomorrow morning (after I call the vet). I had no idea that a cc is the same as a ml. Wow, he sure was dosing wrong to be off by 5cc's. No wonder the bird is not showing improvement.


----------



## Lainey1129

Jay3 said:


> I asked earlier how old the bird is, as I don't remember. The yellow urates in the droppings, and the throat being raw are signs of canker. Under dosing will help the canker to build an immunity to the drug, that is why I want you to increase to the right amount. But until you do know for sure the correct strength of the drug, I agree with you that you should use the tablet. Make sure you give the Pepto 30 min before you feed and then medicate right after.
> I have also asked you if you let the crop empty before feeding again. This is important, as you can cause crop problems by not doing so.


I don't remember how old the bird is either. I have lost track of time. He is probably a month old. He has some yellow feathers on his head and pin feathers on the back of his neck.

As far as emptying his crop, I can't really tell as he has been on that formula and his neck and crop feels like air is in it. It would be easier to tell if I was feeding him bird seed like before. After tonight's feeding. I will pay closer attention to the crop. I have learned some valuable information here.


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## Jay3

You are probably feeling formula, and not air for one, and you keep adding to it, and to make things worse, you have then been trying to squeeze the air out. If indeed there is food in there or water, as I mentioned earlier, you can aspirate him. Send the food up from the crop and down the wrong pipe. That would explain coughing. Never do that.
You would be better off feeding frozen peas which have been defrosted and warmed under hot running water. Make sure when you give them that they are warm, and not hot. 
Hold the bird on your lap and against your body, Come from behind his head with onne hand and clasp his beak. Now with the other hand open his beak. Put in a pea and push it way to the back of the throat and over the tongue. Now let him close his beak and he will swallow. If he throws it out, then you didn't place it far enough back. I would do this with about 30 peas to begin with. And you can work up to about 50 later on. You should be able to feel the peas in his crop more easily. Do this for a couple of days, and see if you can get him stable, then you could always go back to maybe one feeding a day of the formula, and the peas for the other feedings. It really is easy to do, once you and the bird get used to this method. Defrosted peas are also very easy to digest.


----------



## Charis

Lainey...the crop is located below the throat and above the keel bone [bone in the center of the bird]. When the crop is empty, it just feels flat. Adding food, when there is already food in the crop can cause a bacterial infection and make the bird very sick.
If you feed the peas, feel that area right after so you will know what a full crop is like.


----------



## Lainey1129

Thank you both for your posts, they were very helpful. I am going to the store to get peas now, Before I go, I will give the pepto (a couple drops). I can feel a little food in the crop but he needs his medicine. when I come back from the store I will feel if there is enough in there and if there is, I will skip his feeding tonight. I hope the doctor got this crop emptying dose correct. Then in the morning hopefully it will be empty and I can start all over from there.

You are the best! I didn't know that the crop should completely empty. We all know I am very new at this. The bird and I thank you, all of you, for the help. From the bottom of my heart, it is appreciated.


----------



## Jay3

Before you go..............pick up some baby applesauce.


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## Jay3

Baby applesauce, warmed up with a small bit of warm water, will often help the crop to empty. It changes the ph in the crop. It usually works pretty well. If it isn't emptying, then do give him a little warmed applesauce before medicating.


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## Lainey1129

Too late, I was quick on the draw for the peas. Will have to get baby applesauce tomorrow and find your post on what to do with it. I do remember you posting about that before, maybe it was for sour crop.


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## Jay3

It's for any slow moving crop. It does usually help. Glad you were able to get the peas. It really is easy once you practice a bit. And they are easy to digest. And add some moisture also, which is a plus. Let us know how it goes.


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## altgirl35

Cc and ml are the same thing
.2 ml is .2cc
I think its a euro,USA thing, remember they tried to teach us that in school in the 70 so we would eventually change over to the metric system like the rest of the world!


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## altgirl35

But us kids got it but the adults fought it so we are still using our own system of cups ounces miles ect


----------



## Lainey1129

Jodi, it's funny but I really don't remember learning about the metric system in school. That's why I was so lost on this cc thing. I checked out your homepage, it is beautiful and very touching. The wildlife that find their way to you are very lucky to have such a loving and dedicated person with your passion.

I have a call in to the vet regarding the medication and strength. I am holding off on medicating him until I hear from her.

I did end up feeding the bird late last night as his crop was completely emptied. I could only get about 15 peas down and he was struggling way too much and I didn't want to stress him out any more than he was. When I woke up today there was 2 whole peas in his cage. Only one way those got in there, he had to have vomited. His crop is empty again but he still won't squeak for food.


----------



## Lainey1129

2 1/2 hours later and the vet has not returned my call, I called back and will continue to do so until I get a response. I fed the bird peas this morning (only about 15) and he is throwing up whole peas. So far there is about 8. I also gave him 30 mg of Metro (pill) since this woman is taking her time.

He is not going to make it, I know that now. I'm wondering if something else could be a the problem. My Dad said there is a different kind of disease that looks like canker (he couldn't remember the name) but is treated differently. I tried to look it up but can't find anything. The bird is listless, has no energy, sits hunched and puffed all day, vomits, eyes closed, and has watery stools. Anybody have a clue what my dad is talking about?

I removed the tape from my red bird today. His leg will do him no good any longer. His leg is still splay and he has a broken knee and foot. I would consider surgery if I had any faith left in this vet. He is absolutely beautiful and I want him to have the best life possible.


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## Jay3

Your Dad may be thinking about yeast.
Did you remember to use the Pepto last night and this morning?


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## altgirl35

Metro is also a good anti fungal 
Can you tube fluids into him?
Pedialyte might be a good option at this point since he isn't keeping anything down
Try small amounts like 3 ml/cc every couple of hours
If he can keep that down at least he will stay hydrated then you can slowly try to reintroduce food
He may be getting dehydrated at this point and is unable to digest anything solid
I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time saving these babes
Don't give up on him until he is dead
They can surprise you


----------



## Jay3

You may want to read this article on canker. It may help you to better understand what is going on with your bird. 
http://fowlfacts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medshhh&action=print&thread=167


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## Lainey1129

Hello everyone.

The vet finally called me back today. She states that the dosing on the Metro is fine and any more can give him neurological problems. (It is 50 ml) She stated that if I gave him more, I will kill him for sure. She also wants his Metro lowered now that he is vomiting up his food.She told me to cut his dose in half. I can't do that so I will stick with the pills. She asked if I wanted to bring him in for XRays and blood work. This involves anesthesia and very risky with him at this stage. I will not bring him in for this.

I did remember the Pepto but he still vomited up the peas. I tried something rather risky at this point. I figured that he is dying so I am willing to try anything. I opened up a capsule of Tri-Coli Stop and put it in his syringe then I added formula and tube fed him again. I only fed 10 mg hoping that he would be able to hold it down. 

Jay, I know that you don't believe in the Tri-Coli Stop medicine because it is all natural but it did kill the canker in my other bird. I figured it wouldn't be dangerous because it contains no medication. It has been an hour since feeding and so far, no vomiting yet. That is not to say it will not happen.

The bird has no problem drinking water so he is hydrated, as a matter of fact he drinks more water than I have ever seen a bird drink. I added a little garlic powder into his water today (the kind from Foys). Maybe this will do something.

Oh yeah, the vet told me that a freshly dead bird can be autopsied by her for $80.00. She said this may help in figuring out what was wrong. Sounds like she has no faith that this bird will survive. My father doesn't either and he said I am prolonging the inevitable and that is cruel to the bird.

My motto, where there is life there is hope. I will continue to "hope" but I am preparing myself for the worst. Well, we will see what happens......


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## Lainey1129

Thanks for the link Jay but it stated that it doesn't exist anymore. I have read many links about canker but never found one that would help me understand what is going on with the bird. It was very nice of you to provide it.


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## Jay3

Your vet doesn't know pigeons.
Did you give a couple of drops 30 min. before feeding? If so, try an hour before and feed less.
He is drinking a lot of water because he has canker. That's normal with canker, as is the raw throat.
Have you tried to mix the metro in the formula? And yes, give less. If he keeps it down, then give less again, a bit later.
When a bird is drinking like mad, I remove the water, and offer it to him several times daily, and just let him drink a small amount at a time. Otherwise he will just fill his crop up with water.


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## Lainey1129

Yeah, you are right that the vet doesn't know pigeons. That's funny because 
she specifically states pigeons are one of her specialties.

Later I will try the pepto an hour before feeding. I didn't have a dropper but earlier I used about 5 units. Is this too much? Is this enough?

After I medicated and fed him, I tranquilized myself as these last couple days have been so stressful. When I woke up I found that he did vomit up some, but not all, of the formula fed. 

I have also removed the water from his cage and decided to stick with the Metro pills, 30 mg, once daily. I have used this dose in other baby pigeons and they did fine (well, two of them did).


----------



## Jay3

You can, if you want, crush them up with the back of a spoon and mix in the formula. Just make sure he gets it all. I'm sorry about the link, but if you want it, I can email it to you. Too long for a PM. Won't take the whole thing.............I tried.


----------



## Charis

Lainey1129 said:


> Yeah, you are right that the vet doesn't know pigeons. That's funny because
> she specifically states pigeons are one of her specialties.
> 
> Later I will try the pepto an hour before feeding. I didn't have a dropper but earlier I used about 5 units. *Is this too much? Is this enough?
> *
> That's right. It's enough, 5 units. You will be amazed at the difference the pepto makes. As you have pigeons now, it would be a good idea to always have pepto handy. I buy metronidazole that is coated which cuts down on vomiting.
> 
> After I medicated and fed him, I tranquilized myself as these last couple days have been so stressful. When I woke up I found that he did vomit up some, but not all, of the formula fed.
> 
> I have also removed the water from his cage and decided to stick with the Metro pills, *30 mg, once daily.* I have used this dose in other baby pigeons and they did fine (well, two of them did).



Much better dose than the one the vet gave you. Most vets aren't current with metro doses as they seldom see pigeons.


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## Charis

Here are the symptoms of canker as described by Colin Walker..

1. 'Penguin' posture - Associated with proventricular (glandular stomach) and crop pain. Birds will lean back on their tails and gulp. Noticed particularly after eating and drinking.

2. 'Dry feather' - Due to lack of down feather drop and bloom production.

3. 'Leady' feel - Affected birds will not come into condition and feel heavy in the hand.

4. Wet dropping - Inflammation in the digestive tract creates a thirst, leading to elevated water intake and urine production. This produces a clear watery rim around the dropping.

5. Green droppings - Due to digestive tract irritation and in some birds decreased food intake.

6. Inflammation in the throat - Tonsillitis and increased clear to grey bubbly mucus.

7. Interference with crop function - Delayed crop emptying and sometimes vomiting.

8. Increased food consumption by team as a whole

9. Dry yellow canker - In birds of any age, this tells you that many other birds have elevated trichomonad levels, which have not yet passed the threshold for yellow material to form.

10. Indirect signs - Poor loft flying, poor tossing, respiratory problems that respond poorly to medication or quickly relapse, a dramatic improvement in the birds' general vigour in response to anticanker medication are all suggestive.


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## Msfreebird

Lainey1129 said:


> Yeah, you are right that the vet doesn't know pigeons. That's funny because
> she specifically states pigeons are one of her specialties.
> 
> Later I will try the pepto an hour before feeding. I didn't have a dropper but earlier I used about 5 units. Is this too much? Is this enough?
> 
> After I medicated and fed him, I tranquilized myself as these last couple days have been so stressful. When I woke up I found that he did vomit up some, but not all, of the formula fed.
> 
> I have also removed the water from his cage and decided to stick with the Metro pills, 30 mg, once daily. I have used this dose in other baby pigeons and they did fine (well, two of them did).


Been following this thread and just want to set your mind at ease a bit! Your in very good hands with Jaye3, Altgirl and Charis.
I am a veterinary technician and am very familiar with vets not knowing how to treat pigeons!!! I also have access to VIN (Veterinary Information Network), which is for veterinarians ONLY. And some of the doses and recommendations I read on there floor me. AND, the vets can't even agree with each other on treatments! And the general consensus with 'Avian Vets' is that "pigeon people are idiots, and that we think we know more than them".
I only buy my meds and have labwork done thru work. Many many years ago, I lost alot of babies with canker. I contacted the avian vets in my area for diagnosis and treatment whereas I didn't know anything about canker.....never heard of it and didn't even know thats what they had. Turns out, the avian vets didn't either! They had me treating with baytril. I finally got mad and desperate..........found this forum, and learned that my birds had canker and that it is treated with metronidazole. I followed the advise here, started treating with metro, and never lost anymore to canker.
For some reason, pigeons are different than other avian species. Doses and treatments differ than with parrots, etc.
The metro dose that your vet gave you is WAY TOO LOW.
The other thing you want to keep in mind is that these birds with canker that you are treating are young, weaning, under stress, which will weaken the system, opening them up to 'other issues'....i.e. coccidia for example. So you could have a number of issues going on at the same time.........but your only treating one. Many times I have used Albon (coccidia med) with metronidazole.
Yes, cc and ml are the same thing - .50cc is .50ml.
Units are different- 1 unit is .01ml/cc, 10 units is .10ml/cc, 50 units is .50ml/cc, 100 units is 1.ml/cc
And NEVER forget your 'point' (.) The only reason I mention this is because in one of your posts you mention giving 7mls!!!!!!!!- you left out the point (.) 
7mls is not the same as .70mls or .07mls
This is important, because if someone comes along (not following the thread), and sees 7mls instead of .70 or .07, they will be overdosing!
I know its stressful, but your doing a great job and the best you can, so don't give up


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## Lainey1129

Thank you Msfreebird. I know that I have been in good hands with everybody on this page. Everyone has been so helpful and have really helped me through some stressful situations.

The bird is still alive, but barely. He is dropping weight at an alarming rate and his keel bone is protruding. He feels like nothing in my hand. He doesn't even fight me any longer when I am trying to feed or medicate him, he is just too weak. Nevertheless, I gave him pepto this morning, waited an hour, and gave him formula and his medications. He hasn't thrown up yet but I know he will.This morning he was found laying in a whole bunch of vomit from last nights feeding. He may have given up his will but I haven't. I just keep thinking "one more dose and he should improve". 

It is just so hard for me to understand how this happened, he was doing so good, even attempting to peck food out of my hand and eat on his own five days ago. All tests were negative on him. It is so sad to watch him, I can only hope that he isn't feeling pain.


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## altgirl35

When they are like that I throw everything but the kitchen sink at them
They are going to die if I don't do something, especially when I don't exactly know what's going on 
Anti biotics, deworm, flagyl
I always keep emaciated birds on a heating pad
Heat, nutrional care and meds can do wonders


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## Lainey1129

I came in the room to check on my baby only to find that he died. I can't say that I'm surprised. His suffering is over now which is the only thing that gives me solace. 

Thank you everyone for your kind words, encouragement, and your help. Never in my life have I seen the dedication of so many people on here. Everything you have taught me will help if any future situations arise.


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## altgirl35

Aww damn!! I so wanted a save for you
Ugh
So so so sorry


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## Msfreebird

Ohhhhh, I'm so sorry


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## Lainey1129

Thanks for your sympathies. He is now buried next to his sibling in the backyard.


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## Jay3

I'm so sorry you lost him. I know you were trying so hard for him.


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## Lainey1129

*Hawk Attack*

I posted this here because you have given me very much help.

I let the older birds out to fly today and my favorite older bird was killed by a hawk. He has two babies in the nest. One was born on the 21st and the other on the 22nd. Is the mother going to be able to take care of these babies all my herself? 

I saw the hawk sitting in the field and when I went closer it flew away and my birds wings flapped two times and then he died. He didn't get to eat the bird but did come back to look for it.

The rest of the flock flew for what seemed like forever before they came in. My father said that the birds are stressed and most likely witnessed the attack. I know stress can bring on disease so should I give the birds anything?

I feel just horrible and I am worried about the babies.


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## altgirl35

Omg!!! More heartbreak! I'm so very sorry 
Can't answer these questions, I'm sure someone will come on and answer them for you


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## Charis

It's never a good idea to let birds out to fly that are sitting on eggs you want to hatch, or feeding babies. Now you know and I'm very sorry it happened.
Time will tell if the mom can manage. You may need to help out if she isn't able.


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## Lainey1129

Well, that's just it....the parents never went out before. I would open the loft and both the mother and father stayed in and never attempted to go out to fly. Today when I opened it the mom went and the father actually left the nest area and took off. I remember telling my father that both parents went out. Within three minutes the mom was back. As I was headed back to the lofts with the fresh water, I saw the hawk sitting on the ground. I ran to chase it away and that is when I realized it had my bird. 18 birds were flying and grabbed my favorite.

I went to see the babies and ones crop is fuller than the other. Up until today it felt like liquid crop and today I can feel seed. I will make sure that they are being fed daily. The father bird was a great dad and took care of his baby that had the broken leg far longer than I thought he would.

I am beyond ticked off and the birds will not be able to fly anymore until I know that hawk has moved on.


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## Jay3

I'm sorry about the bird, but as Charis mentioned, you never let birds out that are on babies. You have to secure them before you let the others out, as you just never know that they won't fly out.


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## Lainey1129

*feeding baby/medication*

I do realize now what I should have done. I sure wish my father would have informed me of this. He told me that this has never happened before. Most likely the father landed in the field to gather goodies for the nest when he was attacked. Had my dog been out there with me, this never would have happened.

The mother bird is feeding both babies but neither of their crops are full like they were before the dad was killed. When would it be time for me to step in? In addition to putting food in the feeding trays, I have placed food inside the nest cage so that the mother has access to food at all times. The larger baby has much more food in the crop than the smaller one. The mother bird seems very stressed, does anyone think I should medicate her with anything so the babies do not get sick?

I will continue to monitor the babies. If I have to step in and assist the mother I am assuming that pigeon food is best as they are already being fed it by the mom. Is this correct? 

As far as the other birds go, I am terrified to let them out. I know that it is not right to not allow them to fly but now that I know a hawk is around is there anything I can do to protect them? 

I don't have what my father calls a "normal relationship" with the pigeons. He says that I am too close and need to realize that these birds do get caught by hawks and I need to move on.

If anyone knows these answers, it would be appreciated. I worked very hard to make these lofts healthy.


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## Jay3

Just keep an eye on the babies and if you feel they aren't getting enough, you can supplement. I would use formula at this age, they are too young for seed yet. The mom may be giving some seed now, but it is soaked and mixed. 

No. Don't give the Mom any meds. No reason too. She isn't sick. Stress happens, and there is no way around it, but she doesn't need medication. Anything you give her will be given to the babies as well. Just watch her to make sure she is okay, and help out with supplemental feeding if you feel they need that.

Nothing you can do about hawks, other than keeping the birds in till hopefully, he moves on, or fly the birds at different times of the day so he doesn't become used to a certain time.


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## jafacanyan

Mix with water, but might not get the right amont required into the bir,hope they feel better


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## Jay3

jafacanyan said:


> Mix with water, but might not get the right amont required into the bir,hope they feel better


What is this for??????


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## Lainey1129

So far the mother is doing a good job on her own, she fills them pretty good late in the day. If there comes a time for me to step in, I will. They appear to be growing very fast.


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## altgirl35

So glad to hear it!!
I think that other post was a oops post
Must have been meant for another thread


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## Jay3

Glad she's doing well.


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## altgirl35

How are all the birdies doin?
Hoping everyone is doing well including you!


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## Lainey1129

Thank you for thinking about us. The babies are doing very well. They are both rather plump. I have been putting food and water in the nest and they are starting to eat a little on their own. One of the birds is a red check (like the dad) but has a grey head like the mom. My dad says he has never seen that before. The other bird is a dun check. I am happy to say that they are both healthy.

All the other birds in the loft are doing well and all appear to be healthy and happy. The birds are molting great and their feathers feel like silk. 

Today a common pigeon found its way into the loft. He came in with the rest of them after some exercise. This is the first time I have ever seen a common red check pigeon. It is a young bird as it still peeps. It doesn't have very much meat on his bones so I took him in the house and put him in a big cage with food, water, a nest bowl and some bricks to perch on. As soon as he doesn't feel so skinny I will release him with a flock of common pigeons.

I hope all is well with everybody on here and thanks again for your concern and advise.


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## Jay3

Why do you think he is a feral? He could have gotten out of someones loft or something. That could be why he followed your bird home. Maybe he is lost?


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## Lainey1129

I'm thinking he is. He has all of his feathers and is not banded. His eye looks more like a common pigeon. It is definitely afraid of people. I wouldn't mind keeping him with the flock but if I do, he must be quarantined for a while anyway. The loft is healthy now and I don't want to risk it.


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## altgirl35

Ferals are usually much smaller than loft piji's
Usually weigh around 250-300 grams
Would love to see a pic


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## Jay3

Ferals are not necessarily smaller. Depends on what you are comparing them to. I've had homers that are small, and the ferals in the flock that comes here are large. So it all depends. Not having a band doesn't mean anything. If he isn't feral, and you put him out, he may not survive.


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## altgirl35

Any of the bigger ferals I get have a good amount of homer in them
Can see it in the face like scooter there, scooter had that big fat beak, and he/she was a big baby
Got a giant guy this spring weighed 450 and was skinny, he had feathers on his feet too
He's living at my friends with all my lost and unwanted homers, plus a couple unreleaseable ferals
But big guys are not the norm 
95% of the babies and injured guys weigh betweeen 250-300


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## altgirl35

Hey jay, you want another disabled piji
Got one here that has leg issues, I think he's a boy
He kind of a brat, can get around but not good enough to be in a loft I don't think
Prob get beat up
Pm me if you might want him, he's still young, I bet with some work and love he could be a sweet boy


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## Lainey1129

Here is a picture of the pigeon. He has gained weight over the past couple days and his keel is not protruding. Now I am afraid to release him in wondering if he is a common or if he will make it. Any suggestions? BTW, he is puffing out in this picture to look bigger. The babies I have that are not even a month old are actually bigger than him but they still have some little yellow feathers and this one doesn't. You have to see my babies, they are so cute!


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## Lainey1129

These are my two babies from the red check bird that got killed by the hawk. You can't see the mother because she is hiding in the corner thinking she is laying on real eggs. A male broke into the female side and I had two pigeons lay eggs. They are both sitting on wooden eggs now. 

The red check has a grey head and the dun check must be a kickback from the mother. This is the first dun check in the loft. I adore my baby birds!


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## altgirl35

He is a cutie and so are the bbs! Love bb piji's!
I can't tell if he's feral or not, mbe a mix with those footie feathers


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## Charis

That's really a cute pigeon, Lainey. Looks to me like she has a lot of homing pigeon in her. You know, many folks that keep pigeons don't band them. I think it's unusual too that she came in the loft with your pigeons, if she was not used to a loft.

The feral pigeons that end up here for rehab, range greatly in size all the way from roller size to larger than homing pigeon size depending on their heritage. I have recently weighed each of my feral residents, to determine a medication dose and the majority are over 350gms.


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## Lainey1129

Okay, that's it. I see someone has a loft no more than a few streets away. I see the pigeons circling almost every day. I'm going to try to take a ride to find out where the lost is and see if this pigeon belongs to him/her. If not, I will keep the bird with my own piji's. If this person is anything like me, he is probably stressing that his bird is missing. It is a terrible feeling so I have to find out. I know that all birds are not banded because my dad has three that aren't. He ran out of bands before the birds were born a couple years ago.

How long should this bird be quarantined if I can't find his owner? I am a sucker for red check birds and recessed reds. Actually I love all kinds but those two are my favorites.


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## Jay3

He could very well have come from that guys loft. Hope you can find it. I just think that as he wasn't with a flock, and he came in with yours, that he was probably from a loft. That is just more likely than him being feral, and leaving his flock to trap in with yours. 
If you keep him, then new birds should always be separated for one month, so that you can watch him for signs of illness. I would also worm him. Another member here took in a few females a while ago, and they were apparently carrying a bad strain of Salmonella. She has now been dealing with a loft of sick birds for a couple of months now, and losing some. If it can't be gotten rid of, she will have to euthanize many. They say that 2 weeks of Baytril will wipe out the carrier state. Some Vets say 3 weeks. So it may even be a good idea to dose with Baytril for the 3 weeks, just to be sure. I know it sounds excessive, but with all that she has gone through with this disease, I would now consider doing that with new birds. At least a 2 week treatment. Let us know how it goes.


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## Lainey1129

Is Baytril the only thing that can be used? I have amox here. I couldn't find the loft today but I did see the birds flying so I released him with them. Tonight when I came home he was back in my loft with all my birds. I left him there for the evening but now I should probably treat the whole loft. Now I am stressed again.


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## Jay3

He came back. I don't think he is a wild bird. He probably won't survive out there alone. You probably don't have to worry about the Baytril. Just segregate him for a month and watch him to be sure he is healthy. I wouldn't release him.


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## Lainey1129

Well, just what I needed, more birds. One of my fathers pigeon flyers passed away and there are 12 new additions in the prisoner loft.I was informed about this about 20 minutes ago. My dad was told that the birds were in good condition but they were put in a loft with 6 perfectly healthy birds. I went out to check on them and I found 2 pouters (yuck), 1 roller, 2 red birds with white heads and feathers all over their feet sticking out, a set net, and 6 pure white pigeons with pink beaks. The pouters were very thin so I took them in the house in quarantine. I gave them each an amox tablet. I changed the water in the loft and added amox powder to it as a preventative. I then added the red pigeon that came back today just in case. As angry as I was, I have to admit that the majority of these birds are beautiful.

I can't remove the healthy prisoners as I have nowhere to put them.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this situation? I understand why he felt he had to take them but I have worked very hard to get these lofts perfect. My fathers birds have not raced in years so I know where they have been but I have no idea where these other birds have been or the conditions in which they lived in.

Any input would be appreciated.


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## Jay3

Any new birds should be isolated for a month. If you haven't got the room to do that, then don't know what you can do.
Giving an antibiotic for a day or two will only cause problems. How many cages do you have?


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## Lainey1129

I've been thinking about this. There are currently 2 lofts in use. One is large and I have the females on one side along with any youngsters that I can't tell what they are (about 32), and on the other side I have the males (20). Then there is the prisoner loft. There is an additional loft upstairs from the prisoner loft and it has not been in use for a few years. I was thinking that tomorrow I should clean out the upstairs loft and place the 6 healthy prisoners in it at least for 4 weeks and then I can move them back if all is well. I totally forgot about the upstairs loft until I was racking my brain. I'm afraid to go up there, I never know what I will find but it sure looks like it will be necessary. 

So, if I do this I guess I can stop the antibiotics correct? If I see any signs of illness I can give them the antibiotic for 2 or 3 weeks. Do you agree that this is the correct way to go?

I did check them all for lice and there were none so hopefully this man took good care of the birds.


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## Jay3

Sounds like a good idea. Hopefully they will all be fine, and you will have no problems. But good to know you have that other space to use for now. Good thinking.


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## Lainey1129

Upstairs loft has been cleaned out and the birds have been placed in it. I put the newly added birds there. I cleaned out the prisoner loft as well as they were in there overnight. Hopefully everything will work out fine. I'll keep you informed!


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## Jay3

I think the birds you moved will be fine. Hopefully, all the new ones will be healthy. I hope so. Good job.


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## Lainey1129

I'm having a slight problem and I hope someone can offer assistance. The very first bird I successfully treated for navel canker seems to be ill. I named him Squeakers when I first starting caring for him. Due to the medication, he was always small and I could tell who he was even when sitting on a neighbors roof because his feathers looked too big for his body and they would blow in the wind. Needless to say, he filled out nicely. 

I went in the loft today and he just didn't look right to me. He kinda looked tired and lazy. When I opened the loft to let the birds fly but Squeakers stayed inside. I took him outside and put him on the landing board hoping he would fly but he only went to my house roof where he stayed for a couple hours. When all the birds came in fresh food and water was provided. Squeakers refused to eat but he did drink a little. I went over to where he was perched and attempted to pet him as usual. Because I took care of him all that time, he has no fear of me and usually nibbles on my finger. He did nothing except allow me to pet him. I force fed him about 20 peas and offered him water which he would not drink. 

His poop looks normal and I can't find any outward signs of illness. Does anybody know what could possibly be wrong? Is there anything I should do or should I just continue to watch him? Could it be the additives I place in their water? This is what I give them: Vitamins to help with molt 2 times weekly: Garlic powder in water 1 time week: Brags apple cider vinegar and honey 1 time a week: Probiotics 1 time a week: plain water 2 times a week. I also disinfect their water holder daily upon emptying it.

On a positive note, I began to settle my baby birds today. This is my first time doing this. I put the two babies on the landing board (one turned one month old today and the other will turn it tomorrow). I had the mother inside the loft in the box so they could see her. They stayed outside for about 10 minutes and then went in to be with their mother. I hope I am doing this right. They fly a little but not much and I thought this would be a good time for them to explore their surroundings without fear of them taking off. If there is a better way to do this, please inform me. 

Also, the new birds are doing okay in their new loft so far. They are all eating and drinking and establishing dominance over their desired perches.


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## Lainey1129

Jay3 said:


> He could very well have come from that guys loft. Hope you can find it. I just think that as he wasn't with a flock, and he came in with yours, that he was probably from a loft. That is just more likely than him being feral, and leaving his flock to trap in with yours.
> If you keep him, then new birds should always be separated for one month, so that you can watch him for signs of illness. I would also worm him. Another member here took in a few females a while ago, and they were apparently carrying a bad strain of Salmonella. She has now been dealing with a loft of sick birds for a couple of months now, and losing some. If it can't be gotten rid of, she will have to euthanize many.] They say that 2 weeks of Baytril will wipe out the carrier state. Some Vets say 3 weeks. So it may even be a good idea to dose with Baytril for the 3 weeks, just to be sure. I know it sounds excessive, but with all that she has gone through with this disease, I would now consider doing that with new birds. At least a 2 week treatment. Let us know how it goes.


I am so sorry to hear this Jay, my heart is breaking for this member. Many people (including my father) do not understand the bond i feel to these birds. I watch them very closely and each one of them has his/her own personality. Sometimes I just sit there for hours and watch and laugh at some of their actions. I pray that she can save these birds, my thoughts are with her.


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## Lainey1129

Just wanted to sent a couple pics. Does anyone know what this red bird with the feathers on his feet is? This is one of the new ones.


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## Lainey1129

*Coopers Hawks*

I just wanted everyone to know that all of the birds seem to be doing well so far. however, I am not. I know that it is just the cycle of life but another hawk got one of my youngsters today. I always seem to catch it when it is too late. At least he didn't get the enjoyment of eating his catch because I took it away when he dropped it while I was chasing him. He did go back to look for it but I had disposed of it before he returned.

As it seems I have a serious hawk problem around here I was thinking of building an outdoor aviary for the pigeons. I don't want to leave the birds trapped in a coop all day but I REFUSE to let one more bird die. Does anyone know how much it would cost to build one? Living in Buffalo, does it even make sense to build one with the cold winters? 

Until I decide my next course of action, I am considering all my birds to be prisoners. Do hawks migrate to warmer climates in the winter months? I don't know anything about this so any help would be appreciated.


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## Jay3

I'm sorry he got the bird, but once he has killed something, no point in taking it from him. The bird is already dead. And he will just go kill another. Not the hawks fault, as he is just trying to survive like everyone else. When a hawk gets one of the feral flock I feed here, I let him have it, as it will save another one getting taken right away. Taking it won't help the bird any.JMO though.

Actually the Coopers are much worse here during the winter. Many of the songbirds have left for the cold months, so the hawks hang around more where they know where there are birds. They get so bad here during the winter that the feral flock stops coming except when desperate for food. When the hawks strikes start being 2 or 3 times a week, the ferals clear out. It's awful here in the cold months. 

An aviary would be a great idea. The birds will still go out in the cold months. But this way they are safe. They do need to get out into the fresh air and sunshine. They need the sunshine for vitamin D3. Gives them more room too. It's cold here in the winter, but on the nice sunny days I set up the bath, and they still want to bathe. An aviary is always a good idea, and it depends on what you do, how much it will cost. But it keeps them safe.
I'm glad to hear that the birds are doing well though.


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## Msfreebird

Glad to hear the birds are doing well health wise! I have hawks year round here! So I don't fly my birds...ever! I built aviary's attached to the lofts. (you can see them on my webpage- link below) The biggest expense was the 1/2 inch wire mesh. Roughly $100. for each aviary, and I have 3.


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## Lainey1129

I looked at he aviary and that is a good idea. I never thought of attaching it to the lost itself and that would be perfect! I love your aviary! I'm going to set a plan in motion and begin making my plans. Of course I will have to do a lot of research on how to do it right to keep out rodents as hawks aren't my only concern. 

The reason I did not allow him to eat the bird was that I didn't know if the bird was alive when I spotted him. The hawk was sitting on the ground and I began chasing him. When I got close enough he flew off dropping the bird. There were no feathers scattered all over the place so he had not began eating him. His wings were still flapping and I did everything I could on the spot to save him but to no avail. I brought him home to check his band number (I needed to know if if was one of the birds that were from champion show bird stock) and that is when the hawk returned for his meal. I once again chased him off hoping he would move to different hunting grounds. 

Thanks for the information, I know now what needs to be done. I understand that hawks have to eat but I refuse to let it be one of my birds.


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## altgirl35

In my pre release cages I line the entire bottom with 1/2" hardware cloth and I ringer the pieces together so not even a mouse can get in
Yeah I would let the hawk keep its prey, bird is already dead, he had to go kill something else 
Hawks are year round, some do migrate so there are periods of time in the spring and fall when there will be more of them around


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## Jay3

Attaching it to the loft itself is what makes sense. You don't want to be moving birds back and forth all the time. With it attached, they can go in and out when they want. I do close it at night to keep mosquitoes out, Or put a frame In the window that I made to fit with a screen.


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## Lainey1129

Thanks everyone. I just spoke to someone who is willing to help me out with this project. 

The birds did not go outside today and I spotting that hawk on three separate occasions (maybe it was the same, maybe a different one). 

I just want to clarify something so if I am wrong, please correct me. This bird killed two of my pigeons and didn't get to eat a single one. I understand the reasoning behind letting him eat it but I have different ones for not doing so. If I allow him to eat my pigeons he will continue to hang around with a fork and knife. I chased him off twice before he had the opportunity to do so that he thinks there is a bigger predator in the area (me) and may move on to a different location. I do sit outside with binoculars and if I see him I get up and make my presence known.

These birds are not a hobby of mine, I love them like my pets.


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## Jay3

If he knows they are there, he will be there. Even if you take the meal away, it doesn't make a difference, because he knows they are there, and even caught them. As far as a bigger predator, he isn't in the least afraid of you. Believe me, they are not afraid, especially when really hungry. I understand how you feel, but your birds died for nothing. He will just kill another bird for dinner.


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## Lainey1129

Jay3, you really made me laugh, thank you for that. I sit out there with my binoculars and a six foot stick. My father even stated that he wonders what the neighbors are thinking. When I saw him in the field I ran so fast and I didn't even know I was capable of it. Looking back at the situation I must look ridiculous. 

You are right, my birds died for nothing. However, I will guarantee that he will never get his talons into another one of them.

Until my aviary is built the birds will no longer fly outside. I even reinforced the windows with heavy gauge cloth. If he gets into my loft (one did once before) through the metal bars that let the birds in he will be trapped in a locked box with no way to get at my birds and no way to get out of the loft.

Again, thank you for making me laugh, I needed that. The sight of me running after that hawk screaming with a stick had to be quite funny. I will retire my stick for now. There are hundreds of feral pigeons by the school less than 1/4 mile from me, I'm sure he will find his way to them.


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## Jay3

I was out feeding the ferals that stop by one morning, and while I was tossing seed to one group of them, another group was by my feet. I thought I felt one hit my foot a few times, and as I looked down, I said "Boy, you guys are really hungry today." Then I looked again and saw the unmistakable wings of a hawk, hitting my foot! He was trying to lift a pigeon, and in doing so was hitting my foot, over and over! I nearly died! So I yelled, just as he lifted the bird and tried to take off. I went after him, yelling, and the pigeon got away. I couldn't believe the whole thing. But believe me, he wasn't scared. 
Your neighbors probably think you drink! LOL!


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## altgirl35

Mine must think I'm nuts too, every time I hear or see one I run outside screaming HAWK HAWK!!! And all the birds n squirrels run for cover
Those coopers have swooped right by my head to take a songbird that's at the feeding station 
They fear us but we are slow , clumbsy, lumbering predators that really can't catch a them
So we are not much of threat to them
If they won't leave by me yelling I chuck rocks at them
I'm a terrible aim so I never hit one but they see the crazy white monkey and decide the hunt is over and take off!
Wish I had one of those guns that shoots ping pong balls to scare them off


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## Lainey1129

You guys are too funny and until earlier, I couldn't find the humor in this situation. I'm glad I'm not the only one running after hawks and screaming at them. 

Maybe I'll trade in my 6 foot stick for one of those guns that shoot ping pong balls. It also must have been a little odd looking if someone saw me giving the pigeon mouth to beak resuscitation and trying to start his heart with light compression. Yep, my neighbors must think I drink on a daily basis. LOL.


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## altgirl35

Done that too!!!!


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## altgirl35

In fact 
http://www.birdtricks.com/blog/how-to-give-cpr-to-a-bird/


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## Lainey1129

Opps, I did that wrong. I put my mouth over his whole beak and made a seal. When doing my two finger compressions I was totally in the wrong area. I was more by the thyroid. The heart looks like it is under the keel bone.

Thanks for the article, I will most definitely read it several times until I am sure I could do this if the situation should ever arise again.


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## Jay3

You guys are nuts! If the good Lord has chosen to take one, let Him have it.


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## altgirl35

Only tried it a few times, had a juvie crow come in, got him into a reptarium and I was just moving him to the rehab room and he freaked out kicked back and died of fear
Was my fault I should have covered the cage with a towel
I'm still sick over it to this day, stupid stupid stupid stupid 
I tried and tried CPR, I will never get over that guilt


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## Lainey1129

Nuts or not, I will do what I can to save my birds....lol.

I do have to admit that I feel sorry for my birds. Every time I go into the loft my birds hop around and flap their wings. They want out! It is their nature to want to soar the skies and explore.

Maybe, I will figure something out.


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## Lainey1129

The construction of the aviary has started and is pretty far already. The birds are going to be so happy! I will show a picture of it when it is complete. Just thought I'd let you know!


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## Jay3

Can hardly wait to see picks. I'm sure they will love it. And they will be safe.


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## Lainey1129

Okay it is not completely finished in these pics. We tore the window out so the birds can go in and out at will. We also need more perches but the birds seem to like it so far.


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## Jay3

Great! They're going to love it and be safe at the same time. Good job!


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## Lainey1129

Pigeons are loving their new aviary. I made a mistake yesterday and let them all out at once. Males were flying into the female side and it was anarchy. Bird fights all over the loft for the females, birds trying to mate, I almost had a nervous breakdown trying to get it back to normal.I felt like I walked into an orgy, lol. Now I let one side out at a time and the males can't get into the female side. Well, we live and we learn. I promised myself that no more of my birds would be killed by a hawk and I made it happen. It is nice to sit outside and watch the birds go in and out at will and me not have any concerns.


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## Jay3

Oh..................the poor birds miss their mates. Are you never going to let them together again?


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## Lainey1129

Well during mating season (I think it's spring) my father is going to allow 4 or 5 of his known race winning birds to mate. These will be the babies that will be sent to someone in Ohio (before they are settled here) to participate in a race when they are a little older. The person settles them there and if they win, my dad wins some money. I believe my dad pays $150.00 per bird sent. He never gets the birds back. Anyone else who mates will be sitting on wooden eggs.

I only took over the loft to see that the birds are happy and live the rest of their lives as healthy as possible. I will not race them, and my dad is 87. I will be turning 50 in November and I don't see myself at his age scraping lofts everyday. My dad only has two of his pigeon flyer friends that are still alive at this point (one is 91 and giving it up and the other is 70). My intention was to see that the birds are happy and either die of old age. I hear birds can live 20 years or more in captivity and the longest living pigeon known was 35.

I know that they want and need to be with their mates so they will mingle in springtime. They just won't be allowed to reproduce. The divider that separates them at this time is made of wooden pegs so they still mingle through the divider by grooming each others heads. The male coo's and calls his mate for some attention. Many of the female and male birds are from this year and do not have a mate. To be honest with you, I don't even know the bloodlines of the birds as I was never involved. I only know the bloodlines of three birds which were born within the last 4 months. I know that bloodline birds should never mate.


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## Jay3

I change the eggs out also, which is a job, but don't separate them as they like being together. It is a lot of work though trying to keep up with the egg laying.


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## Lainey1129

Thanks Jay but I have a question for you. I should keep them all together constantly? If so, it was crazy. I had 3 males cornering my cocoa mama (her mate died) in a nest box fighting while she looked terrified. Other birds that know they were once mated were throwing females and other males out of the nests that they knew they were in last season. My two youngsters (a little over a month and huge) were peeping and getting bit by nasty males. Any advice? Are you saying I should open the partition now?


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## Jay3

How many birds do you have? Some of it is in understanding them, and how they function. Pigeons are born to pair up, mate and breed. Most of their happiness and well being is in securing a mate and sharing a nest box. Building the nest together, sharing egg sitting responsibility, and raising babies. I sure can understand why you can't be letting them hatch babies all the time. I can't either. But I try to give them as much of normal as I can. They aren't happy separated. It sounds as though you either have too few boxes and perches, or too many males. Also, when a pair use a nest box, it's their box. You can't have another pair in there nesting. The first pair see it as theirs. The new pair must use another box. Once it is a pairs box, they will all but kill another bird who tries to take it over. But that is actually a good thing. A male should protect his nest box from intruders. It's a good quality. You need to have a box for every male, at least. 

Also, keeping pairs, especially with babies, in with single birds is a bad idea. Always causes problems. Especially if the singles are males. But either way, it does cause problems. 

Can you take all the pairs and put them in one section, and then put the singles, or who you think are singles in the other section? Then your pairs will be safe and calmer, and you can then watch the singles, to see if there are any pairs you missed in them, or if any do pair up. Most females will end up with a male in a short amount of time. Then you will know how many extra males you have. You may then need to find mates for them, or new homes. Once all are paired, you could open the whole thing up for everyone, or keep pairs on either side. This makes the most sense in keeping everyone healthy and happy, which will in turn keep the stress level, which causes illness down. Then be vigilant about switching out the eggs for fake. 
How many birds are we talking here?


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## Lainey1129

Sorry it took so long to respond. There are approx 70 pigeons. The loft contains 17 nest boxes. There are 30 hens and 20 males. The other 20 are still youngsters and their sex is very hard to determine. I have placed the known pairs together on one side and placed straw in the loft so they can enjoy building their nests. I have been watching the behavior of the other birds to see if I missed any pairs, so far I have not seen any. Just in case, there are 7 nest boxes still unused. Thank you for the advice, I just want to keep these birds happy.

They are enjoying the aviary very much. To be honest, the paired birds don't go out very often they seem to have another agenda. 

I do have one more question if anyone can help. I have a bird that appears to be sick. He was sitting with his feather ruffled and his eyes closed for much of the day. He is one of my favorite birds and although he is a youngster (prob 5 months old) it is one of my champion bred show birds. He is a beautiful blue bar. I put him in my house in a cage and for 7 days I have been giving him a 4 in 1 Avio medication because I have no clue what his problem is. The directions on the bottle states to give it for 5-7 days. I was going to start him on a pro-biotic tomorrow. Although he seems better, he does not seem like he used to. His droppings are normal (always have been) and he is eating and drinking. Everything seems normal but something about him doesn't seem right to me. Should I continue to give him this medication beyond the seven day period? Should I try something else?

I don't want to lose this bird, I would be devastated. My fathers friend even looked at him when I first noticed he was sick and he did agree that something was wrong but didn't have a clue what it could be. If anybody has any ideas they would be welcomed.


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## Jay3

You have, I'm sure, already checked the throat for canker? Although remember that canker doesn't always show in the throat. By keeping him separate, you can get a better idea of whether or not he is eating as much as he should, or drinking more than normally. But it's still difficult to know for sure how much he is eating if they tend to throw feed around, as many do. 
If it were me, I would treat for 7 to 10 days with Metronidazole, and 10 days with Baytril (Enrofloxyn), to try and cover most things.
The 4 in 1's are useless, as they do not have enough of any one drug in them to cure anything. They can even help to build a resistance in the bacteria or whatever you are treating for. When you treat for anything, you really need to use single drugs.


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## Lainey1129

Thanks Jay, I did check the throat and there was no sign of canker. I also smelled in his mouth to see if there was an odor, there was none.I also looked for a lump in his crop area and found nothing. That was the very first thing I did when I noticed him not feeling well. I will begin the metro today but I am unable to get a hold of any Baytril since I won't be taking him to that vet I used in the past and they do not sell this in pigeon supply stores. I do have Amoxicillin tablets so I can give him those. 

I am assuming that I would give the metro first and then follow up with the antibiotic. Is this correct? Or should I give them both at once? His immune system is most likely down due to the Avio he has been receiving, do you suggest I give him a probiotic today and then begin tomorrow? 

I will hold off on doing anything until I hear from you. Again, thank you Jay!


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## Jay3

You could do the antibiotics for a couple of days. Metro and Baytril can be given together. I usually do one in the am, and the other in the pm. I usually do the Metro in the pm, as I have more time then, and can feed them first, which is good to do, because it can upset their stomach on an empty crop. 
It's good to give Nystatin or similar when giving antibiotics, to prevent yeast. Medistatin can be bought online, if you can't get Nystatin.

*Places to get Baytril or Enrofloxyn*
Enrofloxyn 10%
http://www.finchniche.com/shop-meds.php

Salmonella Tabs ( 10mg Norflaxin)
http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_56&products_id=134


Parastop 100ml (Norflaxacin)
http://www.globalpigeon.com/advance...Csid=1dna5ha3q8a6e1pdv121va0vk2&Submit=Search

Enroflaxyn Tablets 
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Liquid Baytril
http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html
Liquid Baytril
http://www.finchniche.com/shop-meds.php


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## Lainey1129

Thank you for the links, I will be ordering some things today!


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## Lainey1129

Thanks again Jay. I did order the Enrofloyyn and Medistatin online. The Medistatin states to put it on liqhtly oiled food so I ordered some oil that is supposed to be good for the birds. I have decided to treat the whole flock since I have noticed some birds sneezing and yawning. Afterwards, I have a probiotic that will be given to the pigeons.

So, I have heard that the Baytril (or the like) has a nasty taste so the birds may not want to drink it. I wonder if it would be okay to add some garlic powder (for pigeons) to the water while adding the liquid antibiotic so they will drink more. I'm not sure how a respiratory infection could have spread in my loft. I keep them clean and there is plenty of ventilation but as I said, I heard quite a few sneezing. 

In the meantime while waiting for the medication, I will just keep a careful eye on the birds.


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## Jay3

Olive oil can be used, as long as it is fresh. If I find sick birds, I always treat individually. Treating in the water, you can't be sure that they have gotten enough of the med. You can also use the Medistatin individually. They also sneeze some when moulting.


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## Lainey1129

I do remember you saying that about treating the water and I thought of it while I was ordering. The directions of the Enrofloxyn stated to add it to the water (that was the only kind I saw, I may have missed the other). It had no instructions on how to single dose the birds. I do know it is a liquid which would make it easy but there was no dosing instructions on it. 

This is what I ordered:
baytril100 - Enrofloxyn 10% Liquid - 100ml
Medistatin Powder
Twister Oil 16 oz

Is the above oil good enough to use with the anti fungal? Or should I go out and buy an extra bottle of olive oil?


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## Lainey1129

I looked outside my kitchen window and saw a Coopers Hawk sitting on top of my aviary. He was trying to find a way in. My pigeons had all went back into the loft and sat there terrified. I ran out the door with a big stick in hand to scare him off. My mom was watching out the bathroom window and was still laughing when I came back in. Told you hawks, you will never kill another one of my birds again! Must of been torture to see all those juicy morsels and not be able to eat one! LOL, I win!


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