# Friend gave baby pigeon



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

*Friend gave me a baby pigeon*

He is maybe one week old, he just feel, I can feel seeds in his crop, he breathes quickly, but I was told it's normal for babies, should I give him some water and how??


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

At a week old they need some supplemental heat and regular feeding .

If you look at *this link* it will tell you how to care for a baby pigeon, what to feed, advice on how much to feed, how to keep it warm, how to work out its age. I haven't copied and pasted because there are photos for reference.

*Please read it carefully *and if anything that you are looking for isn't there, or if you need clarification, please ask!

For the time being you could dip his beak in warm water so that the nostrils are not covered, that will encourage it to drink on its own.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you, I have Nutribird. He still have seeds in his crop. Should I wait for his crop to empty? I'm going to try the Syringe and balloon method. He pooped 4 times till now. I would say he is older than 7 days, maybe 10 days, the wing feathers started to grow.


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

At tis time, they can not feed or drink on there own. Now why does he have seed in his crop? is this the parents feeding? was the baby abandoned? the balloon methods works. others will be on to help. yes, i would wait for his crop to empty.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes, it is the parents feeding. He fell from the building into a jardinere (flower pot) on the street. I don't see any injuries, but who knows?
I'm going to wait for his crop to empty, he threw up some seeds (wheat).


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I put him under the lamp. How long does it take for him to digest seeds?? His crop is still full of seeds.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Here are the pictures


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Probably he vomited because as he hadn't got any heat source he wasn't able to digest them. Can you show us a pic of the poops?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Do you think he is ok now under the lamp??

He's just pooped, and it's bad, only white stuff. Others were fine. He pooped once again, and it better. Is he ok under the lamp?? He won't overheat/?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He drinks by himself, he drank a lot.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

How far away is the lamp and what kind of lamp is it? Pigeons like being warm, I had one that went as close as she could to the 40watt lamp, and she didn't overheat.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

23 cm. 

http://img265.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=10062010892.jpg

I really hope he's going to digest better now he is warm.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

His crop is still not empty. Is that normal?? What can I do?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please, help, poop is very bad, watery, what should I do? 

I read somewhere that there is a procedure, that the vet can empty the crop, does that require anesthesia?? What should I do now???????


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal...........You can try syringe feeding a few cc's of baby applesauce followed by very gently massaging the crop. This might help to get things moving.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him nystatin for candida, I don't have applesauce, should I maybe give him some Nutribird food, I'm afraid he might die of starvation


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why do you think he needs nystatin? How much is in the crop? Is Nutribird food baby formula?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Because his poop smells sour and I even felt gas in the crop. 
The crops is huge, you can feel seeds. Nutribird is baby formula http://www.dietecuk.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=2706

How long can he go without food? Poop looks terrible


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I don't know what Nutribird is............However, until you get his system going and the crop is emptying and he is pooping I wouldn't add anything into his crop other than a little baby applesauce or a few cc's of warm water.

Keep trying to gently massage the crop.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

He will not starve. Do not attempt to feed him baby bird formula.

Can you post a picture of the bird?

Where are you located? We might have a member in your area that could assist you.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I live in Belgrade, Serbia.

http://img265.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=10062010892.jpg

So you think he won't starve till tomorrow?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

lwerden said:


> I don't know what Nutribird is............However, until you get his system going and the crop is emptying and he is pooping I wouldn't add anything into his crop other than a little baby applesauce or a few cc's of warm water.
> 
> Keep trying to gently massage the crop.


I agree. Also, if you have been feeding him, you need to be careful in how you do it so that he doesn't gulp a lot of air. That would also make his crop seem full. Can you get any applesause? Also, when you message the crop, please be careful not to push the contents of the crop up too far, or it can aspirate him and go into his lungs. Same when giving him water. Be careful not to let him get it into his lungs.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He is very thin, I can feel all his bones. I have some antibiotics, Baytril, Cefalexin..


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

No he will not starve until tomorrow. It is most important that you get his system moving.

Can you post a picture?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He drinks on his own, and I haven't fed him once. I found him with the crop full of seeds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can't just start giving him meds that he probably doesn't even need. Many of them are bad for a very young bird. You have to know what you are treating for first.
Have you tried gently messaging the crop?


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Open up his beak and take a look if you see any yellow cheese like substance or leisions in his mouth or throat. How does his breath smell?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

smells sour. doesn't have anything in his mouth and throat. 
The crops is huge, saggy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

eternal said:


> smells sour. doesn't have anything in his mouth and throat.
> The crops is huge, saggy


Can you post a pic?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

this is the best i can do


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Do you have the ability to get this bird to a Vet????

It does sound like sour crop and the bird really needs veteniary care ASAP.

Do not attempt to feed the bird anything.......Keep trying the gentle massaging.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

The crop looks swollen, but not that bad........I have seen alot worse.

The baby looks about 7/10 days old from what I can see.

Sometimes getting the baby warm can get the system moving. If you have a heating pad, place him on a towell with the heating pad underneath set on low. Keep him in a dark, quiet place. Give him awhile to warm up and keep trying with the gentle massage.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I know it is sour crop, that's why i gave him Nystatin. It's almost midnight here in Belgrade, so I can only take him tomorrow, but we don't have avian vet. What can the vet do??


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

If it is definately sour crop, the vet would propably suction out the content of the crop. Rehydrate him wih subq fluids and give medication.

Do not attempt to do this on your own. Only an experience qualifed person can do this and it is still a risky procedure.

Try and get some baby applesauce. Along with the Nystatin the applesauce should neutralize the PH balance in the crop and help things to start moving. I would keep trying with the gentle massages and above all keeping him warmed up for the rest of the night.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

How is a crop wash done??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

How can he suction the content?? Please explain, we don't have an avian vet, I have to print the explanation and give to a regular vet


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal.....please read my previous post. I would not recommend you attempt anything like this on your own.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm not crazy to try something like that, trust me.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal.........If you do not have any applesauce........You can use a few drops of Apple Cider Vinegar mixed with warm water. Also you can add to the water a pinch of garlic powder. Administer a few cc's and keep masaging. 

What you are trying to do here is neutralize the PH in the crop to get things moving.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A vet can find out how to do something like that. It is dangerous for any else.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

lwerden said:


> Eternal.........If you do not have any applesauce........You can use a few drops of Apple Cider Vinegar mixed with warm water. Also you can add to the water a pinch of garlic powder. Administer a few cc's and keep masaging.
> 
> What you are trying to do here is neutralize the PH in the crop to get things moving.


I was just going to ask if you had apple cider vinegar.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

A regular vet, in leiu of a specialist will still have a good idea what to do. A regular Vet would most likely phone or talk to a person familiar with the procedure before he attempted it.

Just try and keep the baby going tonight until you can get him to the Vet in the morning.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I've only found apple vinegar


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

That's fine.......use it......a few drops mixed in a few cc's of warm water. Add the garlic powder if you have that as well.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

how much ml of vinegar in 50 ml of water? it's 4% acid


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I would start with 5ml water and add 5 drops vinegar. Then administer 2ml to the bird.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

it's done. the crop smells really bad, sour. 
I really need you to tell me how the crop wash is done, do the vet need to administer anesthesia or what? where should he make a cut, which part of the crop?

And why is the apple vinegar so good??


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Please stop asking about the crop wash. Just get the bird to a vet if it hasn't emptied by tomorrow morning.

The vinegar helps to neutralize the contents of the crop.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying. Vets here know nothing about birds. It's great risk just to take him to some vet because of that. They have never heard of crop wash. And now I should trust them with a baby bird???


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why don't you give it til tomorrow and see if it empties on it's own. Often it does.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal............Any qualified Vet will be sure he knows how to perform the procedure. Don't worry yourself about that.........Let the Vet handle it.

The acid content of the vinegar will change the PH level in the crop and hopefully break up the contents which have turned sour and get it moving through the birds system.

Keep the bird good and warm during the night. Wait a few hours and repeat the water/vinegar again.

Honestly the massage does work so keep trying that as well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just remember, as I mentioned, be careful messaging the crop or you will bring the contents up to the birds throat and drown him. You don't want to message too hard or push the contents too far up.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Why don't you give it til tomorrow and see if it empties on it's own. Often it does.


Please keep your fingers crossed, but right now I don't see any improvement.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm praying as I type this. I believe that both Louise and I are praying very hard. It could take a while. Let him be for the night and get some rest. Check him in the morning. He needs to be kept warm.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

This takes time to work Eternal........it doesn't happen immediatly.

Get some rest and keep thinking positive thoughts.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I can't sleep when I have a sick animal. He is under the lamp, same as in the pictures.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Now he is trying to throw up, I'm afraid he's gonna aspirate. I might find a vet who works 24h in case of emergency. What should I do??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

we're going to the vet, please wish us luck


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The incision should be made where exactly, please???


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal..........Get to the Vet...........it is not an incision........it is a tube extraction. I promise you the Vet will know what to do.....Go now if there is a 24 hour clinic.

I wish you luck and will be praying for the little one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you cut into the bird you will kill him. You do not know what you are doing.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> If you cut into the bird you will kill him. You do not know what you are doing.


Do not try anything on your own........you will kill him.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal.........What's going on with the baby???? Did he vomit????


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

WOW! This is sooo confusing. Eternal, I know you are trying to help this baby bird. if you try to cut the crop, and stich it back up, the bird will most likely die. and if not right a away, he will be in a ---- load of pain. 

TAKE HIM TO A VET! THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO!

Please, for the sake of this bird... and most of us are NOT vets, or rehabbers...


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal............I know you went off line.........I hope you went to the Vet.

Please let us know what happens.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He made an incision in his crop, it was the only way, he emptied his crop, gave his saline subq, and he told me not to feed him till he starts to squeak and to keep him warm, he is soo thin, is he going to die of starvation? when can i feed him?? please help


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

you're all insulting me!!!! I know you don't know me, but please!!!


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

he had hairball in his crop, some weed, and wheat

I need your help now. Those saline blisters are all gone now (10 cc), he said that we should come in the morning. I'm scared because he is so thin. He is under the lamp now, he was shivering after the procedure because he was wet. What should I do now??


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal........What type of incision did the vet make and where? Did he suture the incision closed? Did he do this without anesthia?. Did he not give you any medication to treat the bird for pain or infection?

How is the bird acting now???

Do not feed him anything just yet, If the crop has been cut into, the pressure from added food could cause it to rupture and he could bleed out. Is he moving around or making any sounds?

He will not immediately starve. 

Please advise his current condition.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He is sleeping under the lamp (how can I know if he's gonna overheat?? it's two light bulbs of 60w), he gave him local anesthesia, the incision was made on the crop, in the middle of it, on the place without blood vessels, the skin on the crop is so thin and there's was hardly any blood, 2 drops maybe. He stitched the wound, the wounds is 0,5 cm. he gave him an antibiotic w

I'm only scared because he is so thin, would he be able to survive without food so much, especially because he is a baby?


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal.........I am going to contact a much more experienced member and ask if she will offer further advice.

Be patient for a few minutes.......will be right back.


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

eternal said:


> you're all insulting me!!!! I know you don't know me, but please!!!


Acctually, we were trying to help you. when you asked us were the inscision was to be made, we thought that you were preparing to do a in home surgery... don't be mad, and please, how are we insulting you, are you a vet?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

No, I'm not a vet, and I've told you all why I was asking all that stuff. In Serbia the vets only know how to cure dog and cats, and even that is questionable. I once had a rabbit and they even didn't check his temperature and give him some antibiotic, because of that he became paralyzed, everything just stopped, he died. 

I love animals more than anything, I'm vegetarian and on the way to become vegan, I would never do anything to harm them in anyway.

The baby started to breathe with open mouth, I turned the lamp off, he now breathes with his mouth closed and dreams. So I know that he overheated, I'm going to move him a little away form the lamp.
There was no chance he would digest the stuff that was in his crop. There's was even a hairball.

I only worry now because he is thin, and because I cannot be sure if he's gonna be able to digest now properly once I feed him.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal...........I have spoken to a person who is quite experienced in these matters.

Here's what has been instructed.

First.......Determine if the baby is too warm. Place you hand under the lamps at the same height that where the baby is. Leave it there for 3 to 5 minutes. If it feels to hot to your hand, then it is to hot for the baby and move the baby away from the heat to a point where it is warm not umcomfortably hot on your hand.

Second......No need to fear starvation......if the vet has administerd 10cc of fluid, the baby is properly hydrated and should be allright for the rest of the night. Let the baby rest and sleep.

Third.......Return to the Vet early tomorrow and request antibotics and proper dosage to be administerd for the baby. The baby should be on antibotics following this type of procedure.

Fourth.....The vet should advise you if it is then safe to feed the baby. I would assume he should allow you to start with very small amounts of the baby bird formula quite watered down tomorrow.

Now.....Check on the heat for the baby.......get some rest so you will be able to get to the vet in the morning. 

You have done everything you could right now. Both you and the baby deserve the rest.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Lwerden, thank you very much, those blisters are now gone completely, he was obviously dehydrated. I moved him a little away from the lamp because he had stared to breathe with his open beak, now he breathes with closed beak.

I would like to sleep but I can't, I have that feeling in the stomach because of all the worry and stress. 

What did the person who you contacted said to you about this procedure?? I'm inclined to trust him/her more that vet. What does he/she says about when I should feed him? and how will he digest?


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

There was no good or bad comments about the procedure. However she felt that the bird should be put on antibotics. She suggested that the bird not be fed anything right now. Give the crop a chance to recover from the trauma. The baby is fully hydrated now, so no need to worry about starvation or needing food at this moment.

I would really consult with a vet tomorrow and get a proper antibotic for the bird. When you begin feeding, not until tomorrow, it must be in very a very small amounts to begin with. The consistancy of the bird formula should be fairly light. You must wait after he first small feed to see if the birds system is functioning and that it is passing with poops. If you do not wait or overfeed you will be in trouble all over again. There is now way of telling right now how the bird will digest it's food......stop worrying in advance. Just take this one step at a time.

Now please go try and get some rest.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

ho pooped three times since we got from the vet, and now i felt two seeds in his crop, i suppose that they won't make any problems. we're going to the vet in 4,5 hours.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post pictures of the part where the vet cut and stitched?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

don't be scared, it's not blood, it's only povidone iodine i sprayed on him. those are stitches, you see? i marked them. what do you think?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

this one i took 5 seconds ago


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal.........The incision looks good. You are wise to keep it clean. Just make sure to get him on the antibotics from the Vet in the morning.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Oral or injections? what do you think is better?


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Orals should be fine.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you very much. Which one would you recommend? 

He squeaked a couple of times when he saw my two other pigeons and now he is cleaning his tail feather. He pooped once or twice.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I felt 2 wheat seeds in his crop, they weren't taken out, are they going to cause a problem?


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

I am crossing my fingers and hope the baby lives...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

eternal said:


> I felt 2 wheat seeds in his crop, they weren't taken out, are they going to cause a problem?


I don't think so. Best of luck to you and this very special little pigeon. Thank you so much for all your efforts to help this little bird.

Terry


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He poops more often, but there is lot of water in the poop. Good thing though is that it (the poop) doesn't smell so sour anymore. He still doesn't squeak to be fed (that worries me), he doesn't want to drink, although he drank once during the night.
We are going to the vet in an hour to receive saline sub q. I'm wondering is there something else the vet can give him sub q that would help him?? And how much cc should he receive? the vet gave him 10 cc, 5 cc on each side, but it was gone very quickly.

It seems like he is interesting in the surroundings, he looks around and cleans his 0.5 cm long feathers, lol

He is very thin, that worries me very much. When can I start to feed him? Do you have any idea??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I fed him twice. First time I gave him 2 cc of hand rearing food, now, after the crop was emptied, 4 cc, but the problem is that you can see food behind his neck and there is more up in the crop then down in the crop. Is that normal?Also, see this.

Stretched Crop 

A stretched crop is a condition seen in handfeeding baby parrots. It is caused by trying to give a baby too much food in one feed, and, thereby, overfilling and stretching the muscles of the crop. The crop skin and muscles have a natural elasticity that assist in the digestion of food and retain their shape as the food is digested. When empty, the crop should be flat. If the crop is overfilled to the point of stretching the skin and muscles, it will hang onto the breastbone, and a portion of the food will remain in the part of the crop that is overlapping onto the breastbone. It will appear very much like a deflated balloon. If left uncorrected, the food remaining in the crop will develop bacteria, which will slow the digestive process even more, causing weight loss and possibly eventual death. 

If your baby's crop should become stretched, you can help correct the problem by making a "crop bra" for him. Depending on the size of the baby, it may be made with a wide gauze bandage, or a strip of towel or rag. The wide area in the middle should be long and wide enough to support his crop, the strips should be long enough too be fastened around him. The upper strips should be fastened, or tied, around the back of his neck, above his wings, and the lower strips should be under his wings and around his back. 

The crop bra should remain on the baby until his crop muscles are strong enough to empty his crop. Until then, the crop should be emptied completely, and cleaned with warm water, every 24 hours.

http://www.petalk.com/avian-injuries.html


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal............Did you go back to the Vet and get antibotics???

Forget about the crop bra for now........the most important thing is to make sure that his digestive system is working and things are moving through.

How is his poops.............Do not attempt to overfeed him. You said you have feed him twice.............how far apart were these feedings?????

You do not want the crop to start backing up and getting clogged again. HOLD OFF WITH THE FEEDING FORMULA. You should start with a mixture of 50/50 Honey/Water....and see if that is moving through his system first.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He is on antibiotics, and I gave him the second time only after the crop emtpied from the first time


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Is he pooping? If so, what do the poops look like? What type of antibotics is he on?

Glad to hear that the crop is emptying........be very careful not to overfeed........better to proceed with a little caution here.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Cephalexin. The poop looked better and better, but what scares me now is that his crop is full of some sub q water. Something is not right. I'm going crazy.....

It's not water, it's air, how the hell did it get there


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Did the Vet rehydrate him a second time? If so, how do you know it's not fluid?

Don't rush things here.........hold off with any more feeding for awhile until the crop goes completely down. Between your feeding and the Vets hydration it could be that he is over hydrated. Give his system a chance to absorb and process everything.

You can gently massage the bottom of the crop to help things along.

Above all......do not panic.......and don't try anything else until this is resolved.

The baby has made it thus far......he is a little fighter......give him a chance to recover from all the trauma he has been through. Go slow.......you will do the baby much more harm than good by trying to rush things.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Now he won't poop. We're going to the vet in an hour. Has anyone ever had a pigeon who had this procedure? please


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I think he has ruptured air sack. What should I do? Should I just leave it be or what? How dangerous can it be? Please help

We were at the vet, he gave him saline sub q, now he sleeps, omg


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal...............How is the baby doing???


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I've just finished feeding him, he ate like crazy, maybe even too much, he is so full now, I didn't realized he ate so much, he squeaked like crazy. I put some apple vinegar in the formula.
I fed him using syringe/balloon method, let's now hope he is going to be able to digest properly. the poop was bad, let's now wait and see. he is so thin. 

What do you think?


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Glad he is squeaking again. It means his strength is coming back.

I hope you did not overfeed him. Less is much better at this point. Do not give him anything else until his crop has emtied and he has pooped sufficiently. Watch the poops carefully.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I really didn't expect him to take so much, he put his beak into the syringe, I thought he was gonna suffocate, he took maybe 10 cc. Now he squeaks anytime he hears my pigeons cooing. 

Should I make him crop bra just in case to support his crop muscles?

He just pooped, this one looks better than those before
http://img808.imageshack.us/i/12062010916.jpg/


He is sleeping now under the lamp.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

No, I wouldn't do any crop bra at this point. The crop will most likely resolve itself as he grows.

I would keep him in a quiet dark place after feeding. He will sleep and he needs the rest. It is normal for him to be squeaking at the sight or hearing the other pigeons...he thinks it is his parents.

Be very careful not to overfeed a this point. You don't want the crop to get backed up again. The apple cider vinegar is a good idea mixed in the formula. 

Keep paying attention tat he is pooping enough.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

he is now under the lamp, but I made him shadow. Now he is playing with hay.

What worries me is those gases that are build up not in the crop, but in the neck and at the beginning of the crop.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

My female pigeon now came to feed him, omg! He is sleeping, I turned off the lamp, I'll turn it back on later.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I think all is well here, eternal. You have done a wonderful job of caring for this little one. IF there is a ruptured air sac, it is NOT a big deal but will need to be dealt with. Let's see how things are in the morning (well, morning for me). IF it is a ruptured air sac, then the air can be easily let out by carefully puncturing the skin with a sterilized needle.

Terry


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

the thing is that it is placed right above the incision so I'm scared it might have something to do with that. It showed up right after I fed him for the second time after the rpocedure, it was 11 hours after the procedure.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

eternal said:


> the thing is that it is placed right above the incision so I'm scared it might have something to do with that. It showed up right after I fed him for the second time after the rpocedure, it was 11 hours after the procedure.


Ok .. I understand .. let's give it time and see if it goes down. IF that area is holding the formula you are feeding, then we have a problem. If not, then we are OK. How long has it been since you fed the bird?

Terry


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

nearly three hours. when I fed him, the food went down, below the incision. I'm really scared that this area is holding the formula


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal..........It sounds like you are making wild guesses as to what is going on with the baby based upon different searches you are reading. First you say it's air then you say it's formula.........you honestly don't know!

This is not a thing for making a guess at. Do not do anything..........Bring the baby back to the Vet and let him make a determination and decide what to do.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He ate for the second time, and the crop emptied, but there is not so much poop, why?? any ideA??

please help. now he squeaks again, what should I do? should i feed him?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I fed him, he ate 8 cc, but I think he is still hungry, he squeaks and flaps his wings. He wants to be near me, and he crawls out of his bowl, which is on my desk, just to be near me, i.e. my hand. Right now he is sleeping on my laptop.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

Cute baby. I hope he recovers!


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please tell me what should I do? I fed him 3 hours ago, but I think he is still hungry. He poops, sometimes poop is good, sometimes bad, with bubbles, foam, and mucous (mucous sometimes hangs from cloaca). He doesn't poop so often, but I can feel that the food is moving from his crop. Really don't know what to think.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

now he screams, he wants to eat, is that a good sign?? But he still have some food in the crop, not much. Why doesn't he poop so much? Should I feed him when he asks for it or what??


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal...........A good rule of thumb is that a baby of 7/10 days old should be taking about 10/15cc's per hand feeding, approximately every 4 hours. Although this is a general rule, you must be careful not to overload his crop because of his problem history. Just because he squeaks alot does not mean he is starving. After feeding he should be placed in a dark quiet place and he will sleep while he digests his food. When he is able to see you, he will squeak more.....so please leave him rest after feeding.

Do not feed him unless after 4 hours his crop seems to be just about empty.

He sounds like he is regaining his strength and you have him on antibotics to prevent any infections from his surgery. I am very optomistic about his recovery, but you must go slow and easy with this bird.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I fed him an hour ago, but his crop wasn't completely empty, there was very little food left. He was really hungry so I had to. Now I'm going to wait for his crop to empty completely. He doesn't want to drink water and we didn't go to the vet's today (he is out of town), so I hope he is well hydrated. We're going to see him tomorrow evening to get saline sub q , I hope so. I even think it is ok if I give him in the morning, but I would like your opinion if it is necessary. How much liquid can he get from the formula? Is there enough water in it?? 

Btw, I still put apple vinegar in the formula, is it ok??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him 10 cc per feeding, and I feed him every 5-6 hours.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal........If you are mixing the formula with water, that is all the hydration that the baby needs. There is no need for you to give him additional water. Also, I don't see any need for the vet to give him any further subq hydration. That may very well be the reason why is poops are so watery.

I would stop with the apple cider vinegar and get some baby applesauce and plain yougart. You can mix 1cc of each into his formula. The applesauce will keep the PH balance neutral in the crop and the probonics in the yougart will aide in his digestive process.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

eternal said:


> I fed him an hour ago, but his crop wasn't completely empty, there was very little food left. He was really hungry so I had to. Now I'm going to wait for his crop to empty completely. He doesn't want to drink water and we didn't go to the vet's today (he is out of town), so I hope he is well hydrated. We're going to see him tomorrow evening to get saline sub q , I hope so. I even think it is ok if I give him in the morning, but I would like your opinion if it is necessary. How much liquid can he get from the formula? Is there enough water in it??
> 
> Btw, I still put apple vinegar in the formula, is it ok??



Eternal...this is very frustrating thread to follow. I know you are very worried about his baby and you have many questions but don't take the advise that you ask for...advise that is solid and good. Please listen.
For your sake and the baby, try to calm down.

*The baby doesn't need subQ fluids with all that formula.* Infact, you may be over feeding some which will cause a stretched crop.

Please...only feed when the crop is empty. Adding new formula to old formula, can cause a bacterial infection which can make the baby very sick. 

You need to follow the baby's schedule rather than the schedule you decide.

You don't need to add vinegar to the formula.

If the baby isn't kept warm enough the crop will become stagnant and the baby's system begin to shut down.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

my babies squeak whenever they see me, so my solution, so that i would stop giving in to feeding them when they are already full, is to put the babies in a separate room. they don't squeak when i am not around.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

By the way Eternal...I would love to have your veterinarian's contact information for my resource list.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok. I'll stop mixing vinegar in the formula, I don't have applesauce (frankly, I don't even know what that is), and I have probiotics (for humans and for birds - Oropharma Probizyme and Chevita Liviferm), but I was told they don't have effect if an animal is on antibiotics. Also, his formula also have probiotics and enzymes, see it here.

I think his crop *is* already stretched, but it was because of all that seeds he couldn't digest. I made him a crop bra just in case. Here is the picture. It's loose enough, but still supports the crop.

He also has broken left leg in the knee, and broken foot, probably on both legs, and even a broken finger. Here are the pictures. I only saw that yesterday. What do you think? I didn't want to get ahead of myself as I wasn't sure he would recover.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That isn't the most effective way to make a crop bra. *It should go under the wings and attach on the back, at the back of the wings...not around the neck.* The vet can give you, I hope, a tape that sticks to itself so it is easy to adjust.
I could not tell from the picture that the baby has a broken leg or toe.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Can you see how he holds the middle toe on the right leg? It is not in a straight position, it goes to the right?

I attached the bra on the back, thank you, it's better than nothing. 

What about probiotics?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

With as many feathers as he has, he shouldn't have those bare places.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Probiotics after you conclude the antibiotics. 
The foot/toe is the least of worries right now.
I'm wondering if you ever sleep. If I didn't know better, I'd think you are in Kansas or Oklahoma, rather that thousand of miles away. Try to get some rest.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> With as many feathers as he has, he shouldn't have those bare places.


What do you mean????


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> Ok. I'll stop mixing vinegar in the formula, I don't have applesauce (and I have probiotics (for humans and for birds - Oropharma Probizyme and Chevita Liviferm), but I was told they don't have effect if an animal is on antibiotics. Also, his formula also have probiotics and enzymes, see it here.
> 
> I think his crop *is* already stretched, but it was because of all that seeds he couldn't digest. I made him a crop bra just in case. Here is the picture. It's loose enough, but still supports the crop.
> 
> He also has broken left leg in the knee, and broken foot, probably on both legs, and even a broken finger. Here are the pictures. I only saw that yesterday. What do you think? I didn't want to get ahead of myself as I wasn't sure he would recover.


quote
frankly, I don't even know what that is), 





this is what applesauce is



"Apple sauce (or applesauce) is a purée made of apples. It can be made with peeled or unpeeled apples and a variety of spices (commonly cinnamon and allspice). Fruit flavorings or sweeteners such as sugar, high fructose corn syrup, or sucralose are also commonly added. Apple sauce can be fine or chunky. It is easily produced at home by using a mill, sometimes called a sauce-master (invented by Sir Richard Harlow[citation needed]). Commercial versions of apple sauce are readily available in supermarket stores. It may be packaged in glass jars, tins, plastic, or any ceramic material. It is also sold in serving-size small plastic cups, often for children."


it is best to use organic baby food applesauce with no sugar added, when using it, to feed or help baby pigeons.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I just took these pictures, does he have enough feathers?

http://img691.imageshack.us/g/13062010926.jpg/


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please don't worry about how many feathers the baby has at this point. You can always have the vet to a throat swab and fecal float to check for canker and parasites later.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Charis said:


> Please don't worry about how many feathers the baby has at this point. You can always have the vet to a throat swab and fecal float to check for canker and parasites later.


I didn't know that could be a sign for having internal parasites or canker.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

How old do you think he is?? Is it normal that he usually walks on his elbows?? sometimes he stands up


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

He looks 10-13 days old. Walking on elbows is normal for babies. Mine just started standing up completely and walking around at day 16.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Is there a chance his crops would shrink if he has a crop bra? It's definitely stretched.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

please help!

when the vet stitched the crop, he stitched the outer skin and the crop with one thread, I now I red that they should be stitched separately and that I need to fix that. Is there anyone who knows anything about this procedure, how long does it take for crop to heal, is it late to fix this because i think it's necessary?? does anyone has a vet who could ask about this?? please... I'm so scared. I told you the vet here know nothing


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Help please, if anyone still cares. 

I think he has worms, I've seen them in his poop, specifically roundworms. What should I do?

Tonight we are going to remove the stitches and see how the wound is healing and to see if we can fix this, i.e. to try to stitch the skin and the crop separately. 
What do you think, what are possible complications if the crop and the skin heal together?? please


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal.........It is 5 days since you had the procedure performed by the Vet.........it is time for you to bring the bird back to the vet and have the stitches removed. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO RESTITCH THIS ON YOUR OWN....DO NOT. The incision should be healed by now and let the Vet determine if any further action is necessary.

If you see specifically roundworms in the poop........bring a sample of the poop to the Vet and ask that he give you a wormer.

Is the baby eating and passing his food well now?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

eternal said:


> Help please, if anyone still cares.
> 
> I think he has worms, I've seen them in his poop, specifically roundworms. What should I do?
> 
> ...


When I said "we", I thought "the vet and me". As I said before, I'm not crazy to try something like that on my own.

I also told you that vets here doesn't know anything (esp. when it comes to birds and other "exotic" animals/pets), and it was proven true when he stitched the skin and the crop with one thread. Now I have a problem, the wound probably healed by now, and it is impossible to fix it. What problems could this cause?? Anyone??


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It might be OK, even without the correct stitching. But if the worse came to the worst, this is Nooti's version of what happened to a pigeon that didn't get the wound sutured properly. It ends well and the pigeon has been with me for something like 7 years now:

*...the injury was to her crop which had been torn open and the vet team had stitched it up.

It looked to be a good job at first glance but a few days later as Laura, (my vet) and I were examining her, the stitched wound just fell apart and the most awful rotting smell filled our nostrils.

It seemed that the original vet team had stitiched up the outer skin - but not the crop lining, so as she had been eating seed it had slipped through the hole in the crop lining and lodged between the lining and the outer epidermis. (skin)

The resulting mess was horrifying as tissue became infected and died. Laura pulled a stinking, necrotic plug out of the wound which measured an inch across and tapered to 2 inches long. You could see right through into both chambers of the crop. She had never seen anything so bad before and her first thought was to put Josephine to sleep.

However I asked if there was any way we could try to heal this and Laura's thinking cap came up with the idea that we would put her on nil by mouth and inject fluids IP twice a day to maintain the major organs. Also inject antibiotics daily as close to the wound as possible, and flush the crop twice daily with saline and Metronidazole. An assessment for surgery to finally close the wound would be made in 4 days time.

This method was so successful that by the time the day came for surgery the wound had healed so well that three quarters of it had closed by itself. So we put surgery on hold - in fact it never went ahead and a week after we nearly euthanased her she was well enough to start taking food and drink by mouth again.

Now she is a fine healthy pidge - only her crop capacity is slightly compromised, that's all. *


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Eternal...........I realize that there is a language barrier, so I am sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying.

I asked if the baby was eating and passing/digesting his food well now?

If so, this would be an indication that the way the crop was stitiched is not causing any current complications.

When the stitches are removed I'm sure the Vet can determine to what degree it is healed and if any further stitches are necessary.

Again, as far as the roundworms are concerned the vet should be able to prescribe a wormer to address this.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

My vet stitched the crop (I really hope so he did it well), and the he stitched the skin, but he used the same thread, he just continued stitching without cutting off the thread when he finished stitching crop. We'll see tonight what's happening with the wound and if we can correct it.

Please keep your fingers crossed!

I feed him 3 times a day, he needs more than 6 hours to process the formula, maybe it's because of the formula. His crop is completely empty usually 8 hours after feeding. Is this normal?

lwerden, it's my fault, I should have been more clear. Only I knew what I meant by "we", maybe pigeons and me, lol.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

How many cc's of formula are you feeding him each time?

How do the poops look?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I think think it will be OK. I don't know enough about surgery and when a continuous thread suture is best, but I am sure your vet knows. The important thing is that he closed the layers.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I overslept, so we're going tomorrow. I barely sleep these days. I'm giving him 10-12 cc per every feeding, until his crop becomes full. In the instructions it says that you should give 10% of the bird's body weight per every meal.

So we're going to the vet's tomorrow. I hope that doesn't change anything.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please help. 

We've just returned from the vet's, those are self-absorbing stitches so he didn't remove them and he said that if the skin and the crop heal together, it won't be a problem. What do you think??? It's been 6 days since the operation, what do you think?? Please!!!!
I really love this little fella!


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Since they are self-absorbing stitches they should be just left alone. I don't think that he will have any problem. His crop could be slightly compromised and therefore be careful not to overfeed him. He will just eat a little less, but he should do fine.

Did you get the wormer from the Vet?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

No, but I could get, only which wormer, ivermectin, levamisole, febendazole?? Can I even give them to a baby?? And can I give him metronidazole??


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Yes, you can treat for worms and canker. However, you need to get an accurate weight on the baby so the correct dosage can be calcuated.

Weigh him first thing in the morning before feeding him.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He weighs 120g. I can buy metronidazole in tablets 250 mg and as a infusion. What should I get?? I heard that metronidazole is not water soluble, so maybe I should buy infusion and give it by mouth?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

eternal said:


> *He weighs 120g. I can buy metronidazole in tablets 250 mg and as a infusion. What should I get?? I heard that metronidazole is not water soluble, so maybe I should buy infusion and give it by mouth?*


I had to repeat my previous post.

Last night while I was washing dishes, "the mother" (it's the female pigeon I rescued last Autumn) came and fed seeds to the baby. It all happened 9 hours ago. He's been digesting the seeds ever since. I can see that there are fewer seeds, but it's been 9 hours and he hasn't process them yet.

Now I'm wondering will he ever be able to digest seeds???

And how many mg of metronidazole should I give him?? And what should I buy, suspension for infusion or tablets 250 mg (they are quite big, so I can try and dissolve it in water or cut it in parts).

I also have this medicine - Trihocin
http://www.vetzavodzemun.com/producthem_e.php?id=49

Please read the instruction and tell me should I give an entire tablet or half??? The instructions said: *The young in the nest - 1 tablet a day, for 3 days, i.e. until full recovery.*


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

The seeds do take longer to digest, I've noticed. Nothing to worry about.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you cotdt, I modified my post, please see and tell me what should I give him for canker??


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

For canker, I've used Ronidazole in even younger pigeons. It's just a random choice as other medications should do the same thing. Though I don't know if canker needs to be treated. Today's ferals and racebirds have developed immunity so a pigeon can have canker yet not even show any symptoms at all throughout its lifetime.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I would treat him for canker because he's still missing feathers on the head and the back. I've also noticed that he has something in his neck, don't know if those are some bones. He has that on the both side of the neck.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Dosage Information*

Dosage Information

Terry


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm giving him metronidazole, it's a suspension for infusion, the highest dosage (50 mgs per kilo BID). 
Is it effective in this form??

And is it normal for him to have bones in the neck, but not those like a spine, but in the front, above the crop?? 

http://img819.imageshack.us/g/22062010999.jpg/


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## wildlife-rescue (Nov 28, 2008)

Be careful with metronidazole, overdosing can cause neurological symptoms in birds!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

eternal said:


> I'm giving him metronidazole, it's a suspension for infusion, the highest dosage (50 mgs per kilo BID).
> Is it effective in this form??
> 
> And is it normal for him to have bones in the neck, but not those like a spine, but in the front, above the crop??
> ...


How many mg. is the bird getting with each dose? How much does he weigh?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Last time I weighed him, he weighed 120g, I suppose he is bigger now, but I give him 7 mg of metronidazole twice a day. Is that the correct dosage??

Isn't he cute??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please, can anyone tell me if those bones are normal or not?? They are even little soft and they are moving??? They are placed in the front, above the crop.

And what about metronidazole?? Am I giving the correct dosage?? and which regime is better, once or twice a day?'


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Between 2.4 mg and 6 mg twice a day according to the drug chart. You're giving it too much, you should be on the safe side. Can you weigh him again?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'll weigh him tomorrow.

I'm bringing their stool samples for a fecal analysis. I hear that trichomonas is very difficult to detect and that even become resistant to metronidazole and other nitroimidazoles. Is that true?? What happens than?? 

The stitches fell off today.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Hi, here are some new pictures. The baby is ok, so I suppose he won't have any problems in the future?? what do you think??

http://img840.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=010820101132.jpg


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

Yay it's grown!


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2010)

wow they sure are quite cute


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please, I need your opinion about something.

His poop is well formed, but it seems like he is not able to fully digest the seeds. There are no seeds, but you can see peels from the seeds, he don't digest them completely. I don't give them grit, but he is the only one with the problem.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images ( close ups, in focus, of the poops )?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

One fresh poop? What do you think? They are always like this, well formed, but also have those peels or whatever that is?

http://img401.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=160820101328.jpg


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

yopigeonguy said:


> At tis time, they can not feed or drink on there own. Now why does he have seed in his crop? is this the parents feeding? was the baby abandoned? the balloon methods works. others will be on to help. yes, i would wait for his crop to empty.


how do you show your AGE


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

So, what do you think?? Are those shells from the seeds in his poop normal or not?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

eternal said:


> Please, I need your opinion about something.
> 
> His poop is well formed, but it seems like he is not able to fully digest the seeds. There are no seeds, but you can see peels from the seeds, he don't digest them completely.* I don't give them grit, but he is the only one with the problem.*




Tell ya what....................remove all your teeth and see how well you digest your food.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

So I should give them grit? But wh is he the only one who has undigested shells in the poop?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal, 



I can not really tell from the images, if what we are seeing are Seed Husks literally having passed 'in' the poops...or, Seeds or shells or whatever, getting into the already made poops.


Are you certain there are whole Seeds literally being passed?


Usually this would indicate some sort of problem or infection in the Gizzard, whether or not Grit is being provided.


Images of the youngster themself?



Phil
Lv


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

In the pictures those are the seed that have been passed in the poop!

http://img835.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=170820101345.jpg


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