# Breeding Selection



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Just thought I would start a thread from the winter when we are sitting around thinking about how we are going to select breeders for next season. I had a new flier in town want some breeding stock. He was fancying my breeding loft birds and was hinting that he wanted some birds out of my breeders and not my flying loft. So I looked through all my breeders. I simply assessed all 37 breeders in the loft and only found two cock birds that I would consider. He only needed hens so I told him no.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I thought we can all share how we select birds and what we keep and what we do not. Sharing ideas is helpful. Why I told him no was simple. I feel every bird in my loft can breed me a winner. I looked only at breeding record at all my breeders. I am going to limit myself to 20 pairs of breeders this year. I did give him 4 out of my young bird loft. 
I was looking through my cock birds. I have 17 in the breeding loft. My goal is to keep my best 15 and send a few away. I will replace the birds with birds off my best breeders whose sibling have won to make up the other 5. Bringing young birds into the family from proven blood. With the cocks this year I am only breeding from one chance bird off a solid bloodline that Mark and I are developing. This is how my cock birds stack up. I rank them by breeders of winners or winners, breeders or racers of or at top 10 birds, breeders or fliers of top 10% birds. I keep birds to breed in the same order. 
Out of the 17 cock birds: 6 have bred winners or are winners, 4 have bred top 10 birds of which one has bred high points bird and another second high points birds. 6 have bred top 10% and most of those multiple top 10% birds. 1 bird was kept for bloodline and will exit the breeding loft due to not stacking up. One more will exit because of only one top 10% bird bred. I will bring in 5 cocks this year off of stock. 2 will be off Ed my foundation cock, The others will be siblings of wining birds. I do feel that my selection methods are starting to get me where I want. I am close with my hens, but I am breeding from a few question birds this year. The questions have one year to prove there worth. 18 hens in the breeding loft have met my criteria for keeping. I have not assessed them like the cocks but will do that soon. I know 5 have bred winners and 2 more have won races. The others top 10s or 10% birds.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have a pair and an extra hen I've decided to let go, so far. I should really cut back more than that. I'm trying to reduce as much as I can without sacrificing real good birds, so my dad doesn't have to feed/care for so many by himself. I've got until the 29th of this month to do it  It's so hard, especially when you know the birds have the potential but you just haven't had the time to test them out.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Would love to hear your selection methods. Don't want this to get into an eye sign bash, but if you use it for selection let us know. I know Mark has some good theories on breast bone wing etc that he may can share. Warren mentioned some ideas about limiting to one family etc. Our PT winner might also have some ideas.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I have a pair and an extra hen I've decided to let go, so far. I should really cut back more than that. I'm trying to reduce as much as I can without sacrificing real good birds, so my dad doesn't have to feed/care for so many by himself. I've got until the 29th of this month to do it  It's so hard, especially when you know the birds have the potential but you just haven't had the time to test them out.


One of these years, I will cut back to my best 10 pairs. I may use pumpers to get my numbers, but am thinking of cutting everything in half to narrow the family even more. Sometimes smaller flocks is better. Like my mentor told me. "I give away a bunch of birds all of which are my culls. Each one is probably better than anything most people have in there loft if you factor in pedigree or what I paid for them". I started looking beyond potential and only at race record for my decision making. There are those few that I am willing to take a chance on though. Hard not to stock birds off my Ed. Every sibling he has ever produced except 2 have raced or bred at least a top 10 bird. I sent a hen off of him to a fancier that won a club race and 8th in his combine this year. My PT birds this year 5502 and 5503 are off one of the sibling that has not produced yet. This is his 1st year of breeding. Maybe they will show in the old bird races.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

hillfamilyloft said:


> One of these years, I will cut back to my best 10 pairs. I may use pumpers to get my numbers, but am thinking of cutting everything in half to narrow the family even more. Sometimes smaller flocks is better. Like my mentor told me. "I give away a bunch of birds all of which are my culls. Each one is probably better than anything most people have in there loft if you factor in pedigree or what I paid for them". I started looking beyond potential and only at race record for my decision making. There are those few that I am willing to take a chance on though. Hard not to stock birds off my Ed. Every sibling he has ever produced except 2 have raced or bred at least a top 10 bird. I sent a hen off of him to a fancier that won a club race and 8th in his combine this year. My PT birds this year 5502 and 5503 are off one of the sibling that has not produced yet. This is his 1st year of breeding. Maybe they will show in the old bird races.


I would like to cut back to 10 pairs. I would have plenty of YB's and it would be easier. I'm slowly getting there. 

As for how I'm selecting, I'm basically going by who's babies made it to racing season. Some I didn't get to breed from this year, one bird I never got to breed from at all. But it's easier that way, as I'm not so attached. I'm not holding anything against the birds prior to 2011's YB season. But any birds who did manage to survive racing prior to that has brownie points. Long story there. I have some I plan on mixing up the pairings to see what happens, so I'm going to hang on to them long enough for that. I have a few new hens that I'll be breeding from for the first time. They were from a very good fancier in our club that passed away. We dispersed his birds among the club members. They are too special to get rid of, especially before I even get the chance to see how they do. Even though I have no idea who to pair them to, what their background is. I'm just winging it with them. I may put them with cockbirds I don't have specific plans for, and let them pick. But anyway that just adds on more to the number of pairs. Gotta have mates for them.

I wouldn't have so many pairs, if I hadn't stocked some OB's. But hey, their babies are showing their stuff on the YB/OB team. They are consistant, if nothing else. Which is more than I can say for some of my pedigreed breeders....


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I was curious and assessed my hens for this comming year. 6 have bred or are winners, 7 have bred or finished in the top 10, 4 top 10% birds and 3 are there for bloodline. That makes 20. The bloodline birds are 1 a hen off of french imports off of Jos Thone stock, 2 is some of Mark's blood that has not bred yet, and 3 is a hen off my Ikon grandson-I do think she has bred top 10% but I need to update her ped. I may pull one hen off of Ed into the mix and make 21 pairs.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I did give my import 00 hen up this year to a new guy that has a few individual breeding pens. I am thinking he might be able to get an egg or two out of her. The breeding loft is just too busy for her. She has only give me about 1 egg a year.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thought for all the pedigree hunters out there. Only stock your loft with top pedigree birds to start with. That way when you select birds over another using the basket, you will not use the pedigree as a selection method if they all have good pedigrees. That is one luxury that I was blessed to have. My mentor set me up with only good pedigreed birds. Never been much of an issue for me.


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

The selection process is not as important as the mentality of the selector (breeder). Or, to put it another way, the selector's (breeder) philosophy is what makes the difference in selecting. One can select all they want, but, will not suceed if they are selecting wrong because of their philosophy. 

For example, hillfamilyloft, if you have a breeder cock breed one bird in the top 10% in one race for the season, do you retain him for next year, even though 5 other babies are average? Do you keep a hen who scored 15th out of 700 in one race, while failing (or average) on the other 9 races? That 15th out of 700 is real tempting. I think the mentality of the selector is what makes the selection good or bad.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

So will you take a bird off the young bird teem and use it for a breeder if it was a top 10 bird in multiple races? This is the first year in a long time that I have tried to win a short race. I wont keep a bird to breed till it has flown at least 3 600 mile race on the day.

I have to learn whole new way to select breeders for the short races.
Dave


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Top 10% or top 10 bird in a race? I think multiple top finishes gives you confidence that it has a better chance in the breeding loft.


----------



## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Here are the results from one pair thats I have, this pairs offspring have done well. The last bird 4548 did not go to the last two races I was scared to loss him.



4508 AU 12 LCL BB UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION 3.704% 204 2/54 6 08:00 10/20/2012 Lake Charles RPC
5.882% 146 5/85 6 07:30 09/09/2012 Lake Charles RPC
6.065% 146 39/643 30 07:30 09/09/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
6.410% 204 5/78 6 07:30 09/15/2012 Lake Charles RPC
6.469% 204 37/572 29 07:30 09/15/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE



4518 AU 12 LCL BB UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION 3.226% 249 2/62 6 08:00 10/27/2012 Lake Charles RPC
3.602% 249 17/472 31 08:00 10/27/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
4.706% 146 4/85 6 07:30 09/09/2012 Lake Charles RPC
5.910% 146 38/643 30 07:30 09/09/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
12.403% 138 64/516 30 07:30 10/13/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE



4528 AU 12 LCL BB UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION 3.411% 204 19/557 29 08:30 09/15/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
3.797% 204 3/79 6 08:30 09/15/2012 Lake Charles RPC
12.069% 249 7/58 5 08:30 09/22/2012 Lake Charles RPC
16.578% 249 62/374 28 08:30 09/22/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE



4538 AU 12 LCL BB UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION 3.529% 146 3/85 6 07:30 09/09/2012 Lake Charles RPC
5.599% 146 36/643 30 07:30 09/09/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
12.016% 138 62/516 30 07:30 10/13/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
17.901% 308 58/324 27 08:00 10/07/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
18.841% 138 13/69 6 07:30 10/13/2012 Lake Charles RPC



4548 AU 12 LCL BB ACE CATEGORY UNIRATE AVE QUALIFYING RACE MILEAGESYB - Young Bird 5.919% 308, 204, 204, 249. 
UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION 0.870% 308 YB 3/345 28 07:30 10/07/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
1.282% 204 YB 1/78 6 07:30 09/15/2012 Lake Charles RPC
1.852% 204 YB 1/54 6 08:00 10/20/2012 Lake Charles RPC
1.961% 308 1/51 5 07:30 10/07/2012 Lake Charles RPC
2.622% 204 15/572 29 07:30 09/15/2012 DEEP SOUTH CAJUN COMBINE
19.672% 249 YB 12/61 5 07:30 09/22/2012 Lake Charles RPC


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> Top 10% or top 10 bird in a race? I think multiple top finishes gives you confidence that it has a better chance in the breeding loft.


Agree. I use multiples to set birds above those that are one hit wonders. If I keep a bird that has only bred one top 10% it better be out of one or two birds. If they breed for a few years and only produce one top bird they are sent on their way.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> So will you take a bird off the young bird teem and use it for a breeder if it was a top 10 bird in multiple races? This is the first year in a long time that I have tried to win a short race. I wont keep a bird to breed till it has flown at least 3 600 mile race on the day.
> 
> I have to learn whole new way to select breeders for the short races.
> Dave


This to me would depend on what is in the breeding loft. Being a breeder and not flying out of my loft, I would want it back to breed from. If it was on my race team, I might want to keep winning with it. You might keep it on the team and stock its nest mate or sibling. Not having the luxury of flying out of my loft, I stock winning birds.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> The selection process is not as important as the mentality of the selector (breeder). Or, to put it another way, the selector's (breeder) philosophy is what makes the difference in selecting. One can select all they want, but, will not suceed if they are selecting wrong because of their philosophy.
> 
> For example, hillfamilyloft, if you have a breeder cock breed one bird in the top 10% in one race for the season, do you retain him for next year, even though 5 other babies are average? Do you keep a hen who scored 15th out of 700 in one race, while failing (or average) on the other 9 races? That 15th out of 700 is real tempting. I think the mentality of the selector is what makes the selection good or bad.


I think one needs to keep things in perspective. If that is the only bird in the loft that has ever flown or raced well, you might consider stocking it. If it will take the nest box of a bird that is better, keep it racing. Warren summed things up once when he stated that if that is the best you produce off your breeding stock, you might not want any of them. 
I would consider the bird if it was off my best pair or had same sex sibling that were winners. The more you know your family of birds the easier the decision becomes. Also if the bird had siblings in the top 10% it might be considered. If the only data was the 15th place, I think I would not stock it.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Lovelace said:


> Here are the results from one pair thats I have, this pairs offspring have done well. The last bird 4548 did not go to the last two races I was scared to loss him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember this post a while back. I also remember Warrens comment. If that family and those birds are better than anything else you have, stock them and send the rest down the road. With a dominant breeding pair, you might keep a whole years offspring, stock them and replace those pairs that do not work for you. The question then becomes, line breeding and inbreeding.


----------



## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

That's exactly what I will be doing this year, keeping the best and getting rid of the rest, and that's not many 5 pair to be exact to breed from, but if they produce as good as that one pair, that's all I should to breed from.


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

The only thing that I don't like is the double listing of the races...many people do that. Club and Combine results for the same race. I think it happens a lot when trying to build up a bird (I'm thinking imports here in trying to increase the value). Why do that? I think that if you are dominating your club then you can start using combine results to better judge, but if you aren't dominating your club why move on to the combine?


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

btw, where does one find the unirate for a bird? Is it part of windspeed, or do you find it in the national database on the au site?


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Here is what I have from the 10 pair: (Keep in mind this is only going to be my second year breeding)

Cocks: three have bred race winners (this year), another two have bred a diploma winner (this year), one was a race winner and first on the drop in 5 out of 6 races and is getting stocked, three are brother which quite honestly have done nothing but I barely got young ones off of them this year and they are off of my mentors registered champion so they'll get another year to try, the last is a bird that bred an average hen (only was able to keep one off of him) but when getting that cock every hen I wanted to take home with me was his daughter and this was a guy that looses a lot of pigeons so I think highly that his didn't get lost under those circumstances so he gets re-tried this year even though I thought he did okay this year.

Hens (I only have 9 I am short one): 2 have bred race winners, 2 have bred a diploma winners.
2 are from David Knightes that I just got this year because I won with birds off his stuff and grandchildren to his stuff and they were a fair price. One of these hens is a sister to my best breeding hen, the other is a daughter of his best cock ever he said.
I also have 2 more from Mels Loft because I fly his stuff pretty well one is off of his "Pot of Gold" which I fly his grandchildren and great-grandchildren and "Sweet 10" which was the dam to his AU & IF Convention money winners. The second is off of Race Machine (9th vs 14,105 birds) and De Maxx (14th vs 6,054; 32 vs 7,308; 90 vs 12,118; 129 vs 5,729; 57 vs 2,532; and has bred winners in the US). 

The last is a hen I am stocking off my YB team she was my first bird home from 129 miles, 159 miles, and 292 miles so she can fly the short race and longer ones in a YB series.

Now I am short a hen and need to find something we will be having a Fundraiser Auction probably pick something up there.


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I doubt I'll find a proven racer or breeder in my price range at the auction so here it is what I'll look for:

1. Feathers so smooth that it practically slips out of my hands.
1. Wide flights so that their is no spacing in between the flights except the 10th, 9th, and 8th.
3. I'll take any eye except the feral looking eyes I don't like seeing that in a racing pigeon, as long as the eyes are bright and not that color I'm happy. 
4. I don't like birds whose tail opens like a fan either.
5. The end of the wing has to reach where the black on its tail starts or an inch less any shorter then the bird is not proportionate.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Lovelace said:


> That's exactly what I will be doing this year, keeping the best and getting rid of the rest, and that's not many 5 pair to be exact to breed from, but if they produce as good as that one pair, that's all I should to breed from.


You may also want to exploit their weakness and bring in some other birds that fill the gap if they have one. But only if they are equal or better. This way you will have something to cross into them. A bird or two into the family should give you enough variety to keep them from getting to inbred. Just ideas.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Matt Bell said:


> The only thing that I don't like is the double listing of the races...many people do that. Club and Combine results for the same race. I think it happens a lot when trying to build up a bird (I'm thinking imports here in trying to increase the value). Why do that? I think that if you are dominating your club then you can start using combine results to better judge, but if you aren't dominating your club why move on to the combine?


Do agree with the doubling. You have to study the pads closely. I also disregard anything on the pedigree that is not race results. Be objective not subjective when looking at peds. Conformation, whats that, and who is judging it. I know I am not an expert.


----------



## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

my breeding selection is very simple. I already got my family and know what my family can do and its weakness. From there on i get young birds from top fliers around my area or buy from the net and let them race for young bird season . which ever one meets my goals and has what i am looking for. Of course it has to finish the race season and fly week after week no matter what. Then i just let them breed with my family with whom ever it wants to and see what i get out of it. So far it has been working very good for me and has helped improve my family..


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

R-Tune said:


> my breeding selection is very simple. I already got my family and know what my family can do and its weakness. From there on i get young birds from top fliers around my area or buy from the net and let them race for young bird season . which ever one meets my goals and has what i am looking for. Of course it has to finish the race season and fly week after week no matter what. Then i just let them breed with my family with whom ever it wants to and see what i get out of it. So far it has been working very good for me and has helped improve my family..


Love the fact that you fly everything you bring in before you stock them.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Xueoo said:


> The selection process is not as important as the mentality of the selector (breeder). Or, to put it another way, the selector's (breeder) philosophy is what makes the difference in selecting. One can select all they want, but, will not suceed if they are selecting wrong because of their philosophy.
> 
> For example, hillfamilyloft, if you have a breeder cock breed one bird in the top 10% in one race for the season, do you retain him for next year, even though 5 other babies are average? Do you keep a hen who scored 15th out of 700 in one race, while failing (or average) on the other 9 races? That 15th out of 700 is real tempting. I think the mentality of the selector is what makes the selection good or bad.


 In very few words you actually cut to the chase quite quickly. I attempted similar but also dissimilar threat concerning breeding. I thought selection was encompassed in the thread, concerning breeding world class pigeons. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/how-to-breed-world-class-champion-racing-pigeons-64365.html

But, weeks since I wrote that, it has occurred to me selection can only take one so far. And the problem we run into is this best to best theory, which may not really be all that it is cracked up to be, even if one can define what is "best", because as some of the posts talk about, measuring birds based on race results, is a bit like trying to handicap horses, and with my experience at the horse track, it is very hard to figure out from past races what a horse will do today at this particular time and this race track.

Based on the good reliable records of horse breeders, we have three hundred years of horse breeding records. It is a $40 Billion a year industry employing many thousands of people.They spend a lot of time and money breeding "Best to Best" and what does that produce ?95% duds, as only about 5-6% are in the money. So, with that as a back drop, and assuming the typical pigeon fancier is going to be less knowledgeable about the craft of breeding selection then those who do it professionally for a living as in the Thoroughbred Industry. Which means in my mind, the odds are stacked against me from the get go. 

In recent days I completed my pre-breeding selection process, where I have gone through the most radical change in my breeding roster since I reentered the game a decade ago. In my specialized facilities for my European based line, I reduced by breeders by about 40%. 1st Place 350 mile Flamingo Winner, typically multiple race winners, which have bred winners all relocated to affiliate lofts and breeders in four different states. 

To be honest, some of the birds which left, had better race records then some which are being retained. Never was ever really convinced that a fellow club member necessarily had the better bird, just because his bird beat my bird by seconds in a race, or even by minutes. I know it's not an exact science, and no two races are alike, contestants change, course changes, weather changes, and in local racing, the skill of the fancier, and his loft location may be 50% or more of local racing. Certainly the race results are all we really have as far as a measuring stick, but as some posted, double reporting, etc can make it hard to compare apples to oranges. 

One of the cocks I am retaining flew in 8 races as a YB, and was in top percentage, the best being 19th place out of 5665 birds, his nest mate won 1st. No first place prizes there, but I also like his body and where he fits in family tree. And I hate to say this, but I am paying more attention to the family tree after 10 years of "performance" (best to best basically regardless of genetic line") 

Bird should first of all, meet all of the requirements typically required of a "good" pigeon, for me, I am looking for the top 5% relative to all of their loft mates. So for me that means those which win the Champion Bird award for our club, have met my performance requirement. Those that win a 1st Place in a One Loft event such as the 300 or 350 etc. is also good enough in terms of performance. Keeping in mind I work in the YB arena, so I don't have fifty or more possible races a bird can enter. They must demonstrate early they are racing pigeons.

Now, so I have maybe several birds which won Champion YB, if lucky a One Loft winner, and then some number of local race winners. I wouldn't be very straightforward, if I tried to say appearances didn't influence me, they do. I compare the actual bird to the picture inside my head. There is always possibility that the bird which could make me rich and famous might be ugly and does not look like that picture, and danger is, I cull an ugly champion because I don't like it's looks. 

OK, so it has maybe a stack of diplomas in it's name, and it looks like what I want more of, for whatever reason I like it. Could check off the list of things I look for, like, or don't like, but it is not really relevant. Let it simply be said, I can stand to look at it for awhile. 

Now, the next thing I will pay even more attention to over the next ten years, is how does this bird advance the colony towards that perfect pigeon inside my head. Where is it in the family tree, and are the odds in this bird's favor in terms of passing on those winning genes. 

Now, if it get's past all of those hurdles, and appears to be a good bet. Good enough to cull a race winner which currently is producing winners in the breeding loft ? Now it either produces winners or it does not, and if it produces winners, how often and of what quality ? 

It would take several years and generations to really know how good a "good" breeder really is. Because the really important test, is will the offspring of this breeder in return produce winners ? Is the breeder pre-potent ?

May end up being plain dumb luck, but I am now convinced that what one must hope for, is just a single golden pair, which occur rarely. Or one of those most extreme rare birds which produces winners almost regardless who they are mated to. The key being not only that they produce winners, but they are pre-potent as their offspring can pass on those winning genes as well, so being able to cross generations. 

Luck plays a key role in obtaining such a bird or pair. Plenty of examples out there where someone actually owned such a bird or pair and they became "master breeders" and won everything. But, lacking the skill, knowledge, or understanding, they were clueless what to do with what they had. They end up selling to many, breeding too many, etc etc who knows, the bird dies, and the fancier's 10 year run is over, most likely forever. 

In conclusion, I have serious reservations, that anyone using even the "best" selection ideas, is ever likely to selectively breed from a mediocre bunch of birds into a group of racing champs. And if the birds are "good" to start with, may not even be likely that they all of a sudden will start to produce "exceptional".

Reason I say this, is because of the typical reaction of what a fancier does with an "exceptional" pigeon once it falls into their lap. Believe me, when you own an honest to goodness "good" pigeon, one does not have to peer over statics and make all kinds of calculations. It becomes pretty obvious after a bird wins some number of events that it is exceptional. And when one thinks about it, why retain a bird for breeding if it hasn't gotten your attention from the numbers of races it is winning.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Warren at times when I was reading this my thoughts were that those high dollar Ludo's are effecting your judgement in selection. Later realizing that if they are your best birds then why not. 
I do think some look at the paper sometimes more than the bird. I have come to realize, that strong families of birds like Ludo's are usually the best if kept true to form. Diluting the best bloodlines usually results in lesser birds. Most of us use the Hodge Podge techniqe of filling our lofts. My birds much like yours are moving simply to a very related bunch. Birds closer to the best birds in the loft. They are also filtering back to a few select families from foundations that were highly successful.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Warren at times when I was reading this my thoughts were that *those high dollar Ludo's are effecting your judgement* in selection. Later realizing that if they are your best birds then why not.
> I do think some look at the paper sometimes more than the bird. I have come to realize, that *strong families of birds like Ludo's are usually the best if kept true to form. Diluting the best bloodlines usually results in lesser birds. *Most of us use the Hodge Podge techniqe of filling our lofts. My birds much like yours are moving simply to a very related bunch. Birds closer to the best birds in the loft. They are also filtering back to a few select families from foundations that were highly successful.


 Well, I did such a poor job of trying to articulate what has been going on inside my head, I am not surprised that some would think along those lines. And let's be honest, when you invest upwards of four and five figures into a single bird, you do then try to provide every opportunity to prove yourself right, and that is a mighty powerful motivation to continue down a fruitless path. I am sure as you suggested, many have fallen prey to this trap, and that is confusing quality with price. 

What I have attempted to do, is stop. And do some real honest to goodness soul searching. I have up to this point invested a decade, and for that amount of time, I really thought I would be further along in producing a very specific kind of YB racing pigeon, for very specific types of contests. Very simple goal, which has not wavered since it was first penned and published. Produce a uniform "crop" of fast maturing, all around general athletes. By that I mean able to complete in a series of events at various distances. Originally stated as the fastest pigeon in your loft from 100 to 400 miles. 

Since that time, I have come to believe that a pigeon may have about a 200 mile range, in which his body type might be the most ideal. So I have in reality settled on this idea that their best distance or speed will not be in events of 150 miles or less. My experience has been, that more often then not, on those 100 or 150 mile events, I am going to give up some time on those kinds of speed events. Willing to do that, if the result is as YB's they can master the sky from 200 to 400 miles. And not by my design, but by design of the original developer, they were bred for the middle distance, and on those harder longer YB races, they have the equipment to really shine. 

Now, I digressed a bit again....but something happened this year, which has changed my perspective. Xueoo hit the nail on my head, because my mentality has been too conventional, and over the years, I was allowed to become distracted by a Champion YB here, and a One Loft winner there. 

A series of events, which unfolded in 2009 and lead up to the end of this YB season, with a couple One Loft events still taking place. This shift in my thinking occurred not because of any pedigree, or name, or the result of previous investments. It occurred because of my seasons 2010, 2011, and 2012 and who my "winners" were. Two One Loft events, two Champion YB's of the Year, and a whole bunch of diplomas.

Within my small facility which I personally maintain, 9-11 pairs were maintained of which three pair produced most of my major wins, the other 20% of wins were from those genetically related to these three. The totally different lines which won 2007 Flamingo etc, couldn't hold a lite to these pairs. So why keep half of them ?

In 2010 in preparation for the 2011 breeding season. I broke up a pairing that on paper should have been made in heaven, the results just were so very typical and unimpressive. So I ignored convention, and paired an expensive imported hen that never made it to the races because the owner retired, and I paired her to an un-banded cock bird I just never could get rid of because he just looked so damned impressive and he still sends a little shiver down my neck and back.  The result was something truly magnificent to look at, and race results were the kind I want, 1st or e1st Place wins at One Loft races. 

But, that is not end of story, this race winner was paired to a hen which is half sister to his sire, and it appears a little more magic has occurred. With early winter breeding 5 YB's were produced. 1 became Champion Bird for our club, another one was clocked 4 times and in the points, 2 are still actively competing at the Winners Cup, where as 4 others from other pairings which were sent there as well are now MIA, and one was lost in racing after making it back from a very bad smash training toss. Indicates to me, unless I am very naive, that the winning genes are being passed on, and thus are pre-potent.

If one or both of them make it through the WC series of events, and if one is a male, I just might pair him to his sister, the 2012 YRPC Champion Bird. I may just keep both their parents and grandparents again for 2013 since they have produced not only racers but breeders as well. If successful, this bro x sister pairing will suggest this pre-potency of winning genes are showing up and being passed on. 

MY whole point is to re-build this colony around the absolute creme, which for 2013 will be as few as five or as many as seven pairs. I anticipate that at end of 2013 I will have to once again repeat this whole process. Fortunately, with only seven pairs, I may only have to replace one or two males and or one or two females in order to move the gene pool forward, at about as fast as such things can move. I now understand why my good friend from which I got these birds would have these massive auctions, where all the naysayers would claim he was finished winning races, since he would sell big winners and famous breeders and would reduce his entire colony to about 15 pairs over the winter. To include his entire OB team for the following year, and his breeders. 

Sounds good, makes sense, but if you are one that is use to having 12 pairs, 15 pairs, or like my loft partner 50+ pairs, just try to select down to a max of 7 pairs, much harder then it sounds. Most will of course say, "yes, but...." in my club you need to raise 75+ in order to be competitive, etc. In 2012, with about a dozen pigeons I actually had better performances then my loft partner who banded a hundred+ YB's and started the races with about 65 YB's. Depending how one chooses to look at it, my three pairs and their offspring, really beat the pile of 50+ pairs, all of which presumably highly selected to get there. 

So the other measurement, when attempting to select breeders to stay or go, in addition to the racing performance of their offspring and the % in the prizes, the other factor worth considering is do their offspring reproduce winners ? I am writing a book here, and not earning any royalties, but over the years I have produced any number of "winners", but sometimes they are far and few in-between, and then sometimes it feels like a dead end because offspring are inconsistent or non-existent producers, which as one can imagine. The future long term success of a breeding loft, is being able to consistently and regularly produce future "super breeders".

I am thinking no matter how many pairs of breeders are owned. Their quality in theory could be listed in order of their breeding value #1, #2, #3...etc...and in the case of my loft partner #50, #51 etc. Assuming one has the talent, skill, stock sense, etc. to correctly ID the quality, then there would be no harm in selling off all of your top breeders, excepting of course those very few select, your top several pairs. And take all the money you make selling off half or more of your stock, and attempt to acquire a single bird which is better then anything you currently own. Use the same criteria you used to ID your #1 bird, your #2 bird, etc. 

If we actually selected, we might actually move our colony forward. When we allow birds and pairs to accumulate, regardless of their winning records, we are not really following through on selection. We may go through a process to "select" a bird to place into the stock loft, but we end of retaining pairs that may only produce winners 25-50% of the time for example, when perhaps the bar should be raised to keep only fewer outstanding specimens.

In conclusion, this is something I have paid lip service to, but my actions have not measured up to my speeches. Which I suspect, might explain why my results have not measured up to my expectations.  Now I am fretting that perhaps even seven pairs at this point might be too many. The fewer pairs you own the harder it gets.


----------



## jason6814 (Sep 19, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If successful, this bro x sister pairing will suggest this pre-potency of winning genes are showing up and being passed on.


So I have a question do you fly the off spring or just stock them ?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

jason6814 said:


> So I have a question do you fly the off spring or just stock them ?


 Wouldn't be able to race in my local club or send birds to One Loft events if they were not raced. Have not produced any "bred for stock" that I can ever recall. The lone exception was 06 bird which kicked his band and was road trained. Since he came back early on a few "bad" training tosses he was kept. Turned out to have been a wise decision. Since I got back into pigeons, good, bad, or indifferent, every YB in the loft has been required to go to our Marion, Va. 336 mile race station over the Blue Ridge Mts. This release site, has produced some four day smash races, so I figured if a YB makes it back from this race station, at the very least I know it is a homing pigeon. And this is in addition to a good number of the other 8 remaining races.


----------



## jason6814 (Sep 19, 2007)

Gotcha, I guess to many have said you will not get a good flyer if they are brother x sister cross.
Wasnt sure about that logic, I would figure some would be good, some not so good

Jason


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

jason6814 said:


> Gotcha, I guess to many have said you will not get a good flyer if they are brother x sister cross.
> Wasnt sure about that logic, I would figure some would be good, some not so good
> 
> Jason


Well Jason, people will tell you a lot of things, sometimes they are just sincerely mistaken, other times they base their thinking on faulty information. Or they simply repeat what they heard from the club "expert" who has difficulty getting birds home on race day. I thought the same thing once upon a time. If you are talking about your typical racer then you are correct. If one has a pigeon which truly could be called "exceptional", and it's parents are exceptional, as are aunts and uncles, then it could be an appropriate time to pull additional tools out of the tool box. 

Incidentally, I did see some pictures of some very fine looking racing stock which were produced by five generations of bro x sis, a rather extreme example, but it shows that those who dismiss it, just may not know what they are talking about. The first time it accidentally occurred in my loft the pair ended up producing a bird which made the American Ace list, then in breeding the bird went on to produce a One Loft cash winner and a numerous diploma winners. So, with the right birds, at the correct time, it can produce positive results. But of course breeding bro x sis is not some kind of panacea, the quality must be there in the first place.


----------



## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Warren.
That Mation.Va.336 mi race,is that the one also known as "The Race From Hell"which UPC 620 made it through?


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Something flier in our club said about bro x sis matings. If they are linebred or inbred he did not breed, if they were out crosses he would breed bro to sister. Just an idea.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Josepe said:


> Warren.
> That Mation.Va.336 mi race,is that the one also known as "The Race From Hell"which UPC 620 made it through?


 Yes sir. Monday morning quarter backing, the birds never should have been released. Out of 1800 birds there were only three day birds, and two of them were from our club York Racing Pigeon Club. After the 4th day, the race committee threw in the towel. Survey after that indicated more then a 1,000 birds were still MIA. That was a race which impacted my breeding to this day, as the diploma winners from that event still have decedents in my loft.


----------



## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

I have a nice son of 620 that I'll be breeding from this year,thanks to Randy.
Hopefully he has, and can produce what his momma had.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

"620" is an interesting case study for me. 919 ended up back here, and produced a very nice hen this year which won two 1st Place Wins and a 9th place, flew 1498 miles and proved herself by being consistently in the clock. She lives in sunny Arizona now as part of a breeding program with some One Loft Champ winners. And 919 is once again on a foundation mission, and resides now with a breeder in Ohio.


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I hate to hijack but I have never heard of this story about Ipc 620 and I am up for a good story.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> I hate to hijack but I have never heard of this story about Ipc 620 and I am up for a good story.


 The bird started here, went to Ken, then to Randy, and from where it was all spread, I do not know. I can tell you the "Race From Hell" as it is still known, was a bad smash from Marion, Va. For me, it is 336 miles, and during this race a major storm system was heading in and the release was done thinking they would get out in front of it. We suspect they flew south to get around it and ended up spread through the south. The race was finally called after four days, the "no report" list was the longest one anyone ever recalled. 

With that, it was assumed she could be of value in improving the colony of someone else, and thus 620 and her sire were sent to Ken Munson. The history after that is best told by others with first hand knowledge. Apparently there was some success as her number keeps popping back up here and there.


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Sounds like you should have kept her Warren!!


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I'd like to present a question. I don't really have a family of pigeons, this will only be my second year breeding. Well I have a bunch of different stuff: Devriendts, Devriendt-Janssen, Staf Van Reet, Staf Van Reet-Groenveld, and Fabry. Then there is the awkward Huysken Van Riel and 4 way cross pigeon. Can I really make a family I hear that it is impossible and that I must choose. They all equally do well so it is not like one is out shining the other and its easy to get rid of them. 

I hear the "horrible" stories about how guys do goof for the first 3-4 years then they dilute their good blood and don't do good anymore. My primary goal here is to eventually combine all these different birds with various "click-mating" and crossing and create my own family and my own strain. Now I know your all thinking you can cross whatever with whatever as long as it is good, but seems like a lot of big names all have their own strain that flies for them and that's it. 

I can't maintain three families because I am a 10 pairs of breeders type of guy. I'm curios to here your opinions.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

620 is not back with "Ace in the Hole". She bred some good birds for us that flew in ABQ. She is a medium large silver hen. She bred one of the entries in the PT race last year. The birds flew well and I promised him to Josepe. Unfortunately he was lost in the 300 mile race. If my memory serves right he did have a good showing in a combine race finishing 2nd in the loft 8 in club and I think around 15th in the combine. I had her paired with Tiger. In 2009 620 when paired with Mark's York 830 also off of Warren's birds bred us 6 young birds that flew in ABQ. Three raced to top 10% finishes the best finish being 4th at 150miles 364 birds. LL 1006 was supposed to go to Josepe before the bird was lost. I told Josepe that he could have the nest mate of the bird. A few weeks ago I sent him out with his mate a hen and sibling to my high points birds also in 2009. This year that pair bred 15th 200miles 322 birds. Not bad for being flown by a 1st year flier and only one of two birds the pair produced this year and the only birds raced. 620 has proven to be a good breed for both Mark and me.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

correction: Now back with Mark. Hate the auto correct some times.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/thank-you-randy-hill-65150.html
Pics of the bird are on this post. He is the silver cock.


----------



## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

First To Hatch said:


> I'd like to present a question. I don't really have a family of pigeons, this will only be my second year breeding. Well I have a bunch of different stuff: Devriendts, Devriendt-Janssen, Staf Van Reet, Staf Van Reet-Groenveld, and Fabry. Then there is the awkward Huysken Van Riel and 4 way cross pigeon. Can I really make a family I hear that it is impossible and that I must choose. They all equally do well so it is not like one is out shining the other and its easy to get rid of them.
> 
> I hear the "horrible" stories about how guys do goof for the first 3-4 years then they dilute their good blood and don't do good anymore. My primary goal here is to eventually combine all these different birds with various "click-mating" and crossing and create my own family and my own strain. Now I know your all thinking you can cross whatever with whatever as long as it is good, but seems like a lot of big names all have their own strain that flies for them and that's it.
> 
> I can't maintain three families because I am a 10 pairs of breeders type of guy. I'm curios to here your opinions.


What worked for me is let them breed with whatever they want and fly those babies.. Does not have to be in a club race..
U need to find if u have good breeders that can breed u good babies 1st off.. If not then get rid of them and there blood.. keep on trying to find something that will breed u good babies that can fly good.. ...When u find what worked for u then get rid of those other stuff .. try to get more from that family so u can breed from it Doesn't matter if its from the cocks side or hen but i prefer from the hens side.. I breed from the pair that gave me good babies ..Once i got a lot of babies i use those babies to breed back to the other birds that i got like lets say from the hens side..( brothers, aunts , and uncle.)That is what i have done.. it worked out for me..

I started with all these strains and kinds of pigeons also..But got rid of most of them and kept getting pigeons till i got what i want..After that things got easier for me.. Also easier for me to blend in traits that i want from other birds.. I hope this helps.. i am no expert but thats what i did and it was the easiest route for me.. The hardest part is finding good breeders that can breed babies that fly good...Those are the birds that no one wants to get rid off.. So what i do is buy them as squeakers and late hatches.. Then i can fly them and see how good they are too...if they don't fly good like what i want.. I get rid of them too... even before i think of breeding them..


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> 620 is not back with "Ace in the Hole". She bred some good birds for us that flew in ABQ. She is a medium large silver hen. She bred one of the entries in the PT race last year. The birds flew well and I promised him to Josepe. Unfortunately he was lost in the 300 mile race. If my memory serves right he did have a good showing in a combine race finishing 2nd in the loft 8 in club and I think around 15th in the combine. I had her paired with Tiger. *In 2009 620 when paired with Mark's York 830* also off of Warren's birds bred us 6 young birds that flew in ABQ. Three raced to top 10% finishes the best finish being 4th at 150miles 364 birds. LL 1006 was supposed to go to Josepe before the bird was lost. I told Josepe that he could have the nest mate of the bird. A few weeks ago I sent him out with his mate a hen and sibling to my high points birds also in 2009. This year that pair bred 15th 200miles 322 birds. Not bad for being flown by a 1st year flier and only one of two birds the pair produced this year and the only birds raced. 620 has proven to be a good breed for both Mark and me.


 That pairing 620 x 830 sounds like it would have made sense.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> I'd like to present a question. I don't really have a family of pigeons, this will only be my second year breeding. Well I have a bunch of different stuff: Devriendts, Devriendt-Janssen, Staf Van Reet, Staf Van Reet-Groenveld, and Fabry. Then there is the awkward Huysken Van Riel and 4 way cross pigeon. Can I really make a family I hear that it is impossible and that I must choose. They all equally do well so it is not like one is out shining the other and its easy to get rid of them.
> 
> I hear the "horrible" stories about how guys do goof for the first 3-4 years then they dilute their good blood and don't do good anymore. My primary goal here is to eventually combine all these different birds with various "click-mating" and crossing and create my own family and my own strain. Now I know your all thinking you can cross whatever with whatever as long as it is good, but seems like a lot of big names all have their own strain that flies for them and that's it.
> 
> I can't maintain three families because I am a 10 pairs of breeders type of guy. I'm curios to here your opinions.


 The first thing that must be accomplished, is one must obtain a single "exceptional" pre-potent pair of breeders. Then everything else can follow. If one has a loft full of birds which are pretty much equal, then also by definition, they are all equally average. I suspect that the "Heinz 57" approach is how most start. 

I will share my thinking...and what I did...I let someone else, much more experienced, and much more successful then me, invest thirty+ years doing the severe selection and acquiring National winners at times when he could acquire exceptional breeding specimens. I then acquired sisters to two different National Champs, and a good racing cock (8 prizes in 8 races as YB) from some of his best lines. This is in addition to offspring from some of his Super Cracks. 

So what have I done ? Hopefully I eliminated at least thirty years of sorting through numerous pigeons, and started with a solid foundation from which to build my own future family. The winning racers I have produced represent the next generations. But the all important stacking of winning genes, has already been accomplished on day one. Not by dozens of different hands with various qualities, but by a single designer over a lifetime.

What did I do for too many generations ? I mixed and matched, best to best, type of crap. Did nothing to improve the quality of any of originals. It was an attempt to re-invent the wheel and to attempt to build a family from good birds which could be obtained or bred. Was lured away from the grand plan, by crossing some lines and having some success. 

If it were me, I would sell everything in the collection, sell off 9 or 10 pairs of these "good" pigeons and put together a few dollars and find a single "exceptional" pair of proven breeders. You find them where ever you can. When you do, you can build a family around a golden pair. I don't think you can effectively build a family around a collection of fairly typical birds, at least not in the span of the typical lifespan.

The problem and challenge is, just try to go find a golden pair which turns out 1st Place Winners out of turn. I dare say many fanciers will never experience such a pair as they are indeed very rare. In theory you could have such a pair in your loft, but if one has 10 cocks and 10 hens, it could take a long while to figure out if such a golden pairing exists. Suspect it could take a decade just to figure out which pairings actually worked. By then some already will have died off.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I have been lucky to find a pair that produces offspring that produce winners out of turn. The question now is, what competition are they better then? I agree with Warren, a guy in the club may have a pair that has produced multiple winners and its offspring produced multiple winners, but how will this pair stack up against say the South African race competition or the races in China. Unfortunately, I may never have the money to find out. I have brought in some good bloodlines, like 620 etc to see if they rival my few best pairs. They do good to compete, but are not quite to the level. I would not say the pair is golden, but good enough where I can build a family around. I think like Warren did and I have done, that it is wise to bring in other birds you think are comparable to see if you can better your colony. If you cannot, stick with what you have that win races for you. Tunny that pair of birds are crossed from two of the best lines every produced. The Jannsens and Mr. Snowbird Vic Miller. Like Warren said, the years these guys have spent honing their craft should account for something. Advice on where to get birds, go to the source. Get birds from the guys that win, not the auctions where the names are thrown around. Luckily others had the money to do so and passed on some of the gold to me. When you do identify the birds it is time to eliminate all that are not to their level. As for the birds I sent Josepe, they would have stayed and bred for me, If he did not want them. The son of 620 was solid bird and the hen a grandaughter of my best pair that had proven siblings. Still knowing my birds, I think the hen is the better bird of the two. The did breed a points bird first go around, so maybe they will become Josepe's golden pair.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

620 is in the top 15 birds that I have bred in my loft. Don't get me wrong she produced multiple top 10% every year she bred for me. Tiger was one of my top 10 breeders. His children are potent in the breeding loft. Josepe's new hen being a daughter of one of them. He to was a "full blooded" birds from a top family, Engels. Selection is simple for me, of the other breeders in my top 10, 5 are the best pair and three of their sons. The other three are my Kahuna bird and a son and daughter of him. When you look at Vic Miller's pedigrees you see Almost Perfect x Josie's Doll in every pedigree, In the Janssens you will se 019. In Warren's birds like the "Duke of Earl", mine Ed and Charlotte. If a guy has a potent family you should see the same birds over and over.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Something also to mention is that four of the pairs offspring have bred winners for other lofts. That is 7 direct offspring that I know of that have bred winners in club and combine competition. Not sure if that is out of turn, but they have also bred numerous birds that have bred top 10 and points birds, 4 have been winners themselves. Ed's full sister and half sister have also bred winners or top 10 birds. As the pair is aging, I have made the decision to stock three more offspring this year.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If you study the Janssen pedigree's you will see same birds on each side of the per a generation back or so. There birds are very related. This year you will see more of that in my pedigrees and a narrowing of the families of birds. Mark sent me some birds a few years back that are showing very good progress. What I call his 54's. Last year they flied very well when crossed with Kahuna's family. Not much else will be seen in my pedigrees this year.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Not sure whether some of you would do this or not, but list your top 10 cocks and hens and give there accolades. May help us see what the top lofts in PT use to select their best and why. Maybe, I will work mine up this year. I lost Tiger and a key hen this year so may have to rethink my list.


----------



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Just a random question I'm asking here but is it true that some birds that do really good in the terrain in one area may do badly in another terrain? Like the offspring of the breeders.

Example:

I live in BC, lots of rain, damp conditions, winds, mountains, etc

If I got proven breeders from Florida, Arizona, or California would they under perform here in BC because they were bred for a different climate/terrain (Hot, humid, relatively mountain-less?


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> Just a random question I'm asking here but is it true that some birds that do really good in the terrain in one area may do badly in another terrain? Like the offspring of the breeders.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


I have heard the same thing, If race horses are anything to go on then I would say it is true.


----------



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

What makes me wonder that this might not be true is when people import birds from countries like Holland/Belgium. If the birds did not perform well in North America, they would stop importing no?


----------



## donjose (Nov 17, 2012)

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> What makes me wonder that this might not be true is when people import birds from countries like Holland/Belgium. If the birds did not perform well in North America, they would stop importing no?


I dont think so, Americans like the fancy pedigree birds, and win or lose someone will always be bring over the next best breeder of Olympiad Racing Pigeons and people will pay big money for there offspring....Some will be good some not so good....Flying pigeons is a art form, some guys are better than others, some have better birds than others, some spend years and thousand's of dollars getting to the top of the race sheet or getting a one loft win. Some spend thousands of dollars and never do anything.. Its been said that once a great line of pigeons exchanges hands from the original fancier to the new fancier the line is now not the same...
My point is this, one most get a system,fly the birds and cull the weaker links..

JR


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

donjose said:


> I dont think so, Americans like the fancy pedigree birds, and win or lose someone will always be bring over the next best breeder of Olympiad Racing Pigeons and people will pay big money for there offspring....Some will be good some not so good....Flying pigeons is a art form, some guys are better than others, some have better birds than others, some spend years and thousand's of dollars getting to the top of the race sheet or getting a one loft win. Some spend thousands of dollars and never do anything.. Its been said that once a great line of pigeons exchanges hands from the original fancier to the new fancier the line is now not the same...
> My point is this, one most get a system,fly the birds and cull the weaker links..
> 
> JR


Well said. A guy with the best birds possible that does not manipulate the wing will not have a chance against those that do.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticl...-breeding-consolidate-breed’s-characteristics

Something to read about family breeding and outcrossing. Main point here is why family breed if you do not win races. You are only maintaining mediocre pigeons. Also says to outcross from time to time to keep the vigor in your birds. Also to get rid of them all if they do not win. Chances are they will never win. Better off getting three pairs that can win.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Leads me to a point. I would rather have a young bird off a guys best pair than anything out of his breeding loft other than that best pair. When selecting birds from a loft for purchase, would we be better off getting a few off his race team that have done well, or a pair out of his breeding loft. Chance are he would part with a potential youngster long before one of his proven pairs.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Also from the article and from the post in the thread, if I am not mistaken, Warren is family breeding this year. 
I am family breeding also for the most part bringing only one outside hen in this year. 
What is everyone else doing?


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

That is an interesting article, I am like Warren said the "Hienz 57" approach, lets see if it works.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

We have a flier in ABQ who approaches things in an interesting way. His method of breeding winners. 
1st obtain good birds and a bunch of them
2nd breed about 200 young birds
3rd create a club without flying limits and only about 5 members
4th race all your young birds - he raced 130 birds in one race the second most by a flier was 60. 
5th win a bunch of races against 400 birds per race.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

First To Hatch said:


> That is an interesting article, I am like Warren said the "Hienz 57" approach, lets see if it works.


Hienz 57 approach will work if all the birds are good to start with and you develop selection methods after the approach. Problem is many fliers start with a bunch of birds they no nothing about, throw them together and get mediocre birds in return. Natural selection breeds to the middle. In other words if you take 100 people some good looking and some not and let them select their own mates eventually you will get a pretty average looking population down the road. Same with pigeons. They breed by true love probably not giving a hoot about how fast their mate is. So some fast birds would mate with slow birds etc and cross and cross. Eventually you will probably get the mean or average speed of the group. Thus the fastest cock would probably not mate with the fastest hen. This is where artificial selection comes to pigeon raising.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If I were to start over I would:
1. obtain around 20 birds, 10 cocks & 10 hens, from various sources that have been successful both in my area and nationally. Next come up with some way of initial selection. Here it is probably a waste of time but may save a year or two. Select by per, conformation, distance etc. 
2. Breed youngsters and race all of them
3. Develop a criteria for what I desire (300 mile one-loft bird, High Points bird, Points birds, etc.)
4. Select birds that meet or exceed the criteria.
5. Keep original birds that bred criteria birds and all criteria birds, select out the rest
6. Repeat 2-5 raising the bar at number 3 every year
7. Bring in new blood to keep up with 6.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticl...-breeding-consolidate-breed’s-characteristics
> 
> Something to read about family breeding and outcrossing. Main point here is why family breed if you do not win races. You are only maintaining mediocre pigeons. Also says to outcross from time to time to keep the vigor in your birds. Also to get rid of them all if they do not win. Chances are they will never win. Better off getting three pairs that can win.


 Interesting, thanks for sharing. Begs the question, as to why so many pairs are kept by some fanciers. Some produce 200 YB's or more, thinking a mob approach is the best path to trying to produce better pigeons. 

Some great fanciers who have produced numerous National Champs have only kept a few dozen pigeons over the winter, focusing on quality and not quantity. 

I am with you on the thinking it is better to work with fewer and better pigeons.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> If I were to start over I would:
> 1. obtain around 20 birds, 10 cocks & 10 hens, from various sources that have been successful both in my area and nationally. Next come up with some way of initial selection. Here it is probably a waste of time but may save a year or two. Select by per, conformation, distance etc.
> 2. Breed youngsters and race all of them
> 3. Develop a criteria for what I desire (300 mile one-loft bird, High Points bird, Points birds, etc.)
> ...


Why not start now if 10 pair is what you desire? I think I remember you saying you had 30 pairs. I would say a bird capable of winning a 300 mile one loft race should be capable of pulling off all the other criteria you have listed otherwise it just got lucky that day and won. I think it would be easier for someone to specialize, such as sprint or long distance, or fast maturing YB's versus slower maturing OB's for the long hard races. In regards to starting with around 10 pair I agree, but I disagree with bringing in a hodge podge assortment of birds. It would be a nightmare sorting through that and may set you back valuable years. I believe a beginner should go to an honest flier that has bred a performance family rather than bringing in new blood often, and purchasing a round of late hatches or even just a couple pair to start with.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

This is all very interesting, I have about 12 pair, From 3 different fanciers, two were very good fliers, One had never flown but was good friends with a great flier so I hoped the birds given to him were quality.

I am learning a lot from these threads, Obviously being my first year racing I am aiming to get 4 young from each pair ( failed that already ) and from the young pick the 6 (_all rough numbers as if only one pair is any good I will only keep one, if 7 are great I will keep them all but these are my aims, Not hard and fast rules_) stock pairs I take into next season aswell as any young that were in the top 10% or showed some major potential, Being a new flier I am not going to be strict on the 10% rule as birds may be good but I have put them wrong somewhere along the way so its something I will look at being stricter on in the future.

Question, Can I breed young birds from the Old birds I choose to race as yearlings

If the above answer is yes then I aim to start my second season breeding from around 12 pairs and racing with around 6 pairs (12 birds). Hopefully the birds I keep breed true and I will go from there applying a similar method of selection.

If the majority of my birds are in the top 10% then I will select the birds that consistently place but this is a long term goal, The first 5 years for me is getting my birds out of the bottom and into the top 10% with maybe a few placings along the way, After the first 5 years I would consider myself to be failing if I cannot get the majority in the top 10%.

So yeah, not a lot on selection as such but a brief outline of my plans which is open to any feedback you guys may have.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Hienz 57 approach will work* if all the birds are good to start with *and you develop selection methods after the approach. Problem is many fliers start with a bunch of birds they no nothing about, throw them together and get mediocre birds in return. .......


Problem is, most are lucky to get a single "good" bird to start with, let alone a "good pair" or several good pairs. If one starts with average birds, and selects very hard over the next 10 generations, he most likely will have average birds at the end of that time frame as well. 

If someone has started with a motley collection and then has bred them up over 10 or 15 years, I would like to read their story. There are some excellent real life examples one can look at if they study some number of One Loft events. One can see where some breeders acquire great racers and then cross them with other good racers hoping to produce good racers and breeders out of turn. Boy if only it would be that easy. 

I rather start with a couple good "pure bred" pairs which produce winners out of turn. And then over the coming decades add an exceptional world class Ace, AU Champ, or otherwise something very special here and there and test the results. When a new and improved YB results, you are good for additional generations. But the finding and acquiring better then what you already own, and when crossed to your line results in something new and improved, is a life long endeavor. And the process never stops, and never stands still. You either moving forward and upward, or you falling behind and downward.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> Why not start now if 10 pair is what you desire? I think I remember you saying you had 30 pairs. I would say a bird capable of winning a 300 mile one loft race should be capable of pulling off all the other criteria you have listed otherwise it just got lucky that day and won. I think it would be easier for someone to specialize, such as sprint or long distance, or fast maturing YB's versus slower maturing OB's for the long hard races. In regards to starting with around 10 pair I agree, but I disagree with bringing in a hodge podge assortment of birds. It would be a nightmare sorting through that and may set you back valuable years. I believe a beginner should go to an honest flier that has bred a performance family rather than bringing in new blood often, and purchasing a round of late hatches or even just a couple pair to start with.


I currently have 20 pairs of breeders. about 5 or 6 birds will exit the program and be replaced by better. I was just throwing 10 pair out as an arbitrary number. I need 20 pairs to get me the birds I need. Just thought 10 pairs could give a nice size race team to assess and get you racing in a year. If I did not want to race, I would probably start with fewer pair say 3 or 4 and work for better quality. I am confident in all 40 of my breeders. In fact I have about 45 that I categorize as very good. I limit 20 pairs due to management and space. Out of the 10 pair I mentioned they would be from a few families of birds and fliers that fly well at all levels. Say three pairs from each and maybe a chance pair.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

Amazing how I used to disagree alot with your approach to breeding and now I agree almost completely with you Warren.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My philosophy is to try a few new birds from time to time to see If I can better the family. Last year I bred from Mark's 54s a brother and sister that flew top of the sheet. This year I am only bringing in one gift hen that is a full Jos Thone bird from French Imports. My Ed I talk of is 1/4 Jos Thone from the same foundation. I doubt if she is as good as the youngsters I have in my loft. Just want to use her as my chance bird to make the family better.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

West said:


> Why not start now if 10 pair is what you desire? I think I remember you saying you had 30 pairs. I would say a bird capable of winning a 300 mile one loft race should be capable of pulling off all the other criteria you have listed otherwise it just got lucky that day and won. I think it would be *easier for someone to specialize*, such as sprint or long distance, or *fast maturing YB's *versus slower maturing OB's for the long hard races. In regards to starting with around 10 pair I agree, but I disagree with bringing in a hodge podge assortment of birds. * It would be a nightmare sorting through that and may set you back valuable years. I believe a beginner should go to an honest flier that has bred a performance family rather than bringing in new blood often, and purchasing a round of late hatches or even just a couple pair to start with.*


 I have to agree 100%. The new flier can save themselves a decade or two of hard work, by following your advice.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

West said:


> Amazing how I used to disagree alot with your approach to breeding and now I agree almost completely with you Warren.


Yeah...kind of scary...actually having someone who is thinking like me !!  Hopefully the future will bear out the truth of our madness !!


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The 10 pairs were if I wanted to start over and be racing in a year. I guess a guy should limit his pairs to only those he values. Warren cut way down. Mark cuts down every year. I truly think all my 40 birds are valued and can breed winners. 30% or so already have. About 30/40 top 10 breeders or finishers and the rest children or siblings of those who have. I am finding now that I am giving away birds that have bred points birds. A good place to be.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Depends on your definition of Hodge Podge. Ganus brings in a hodge podge of National Ace pigeons. Don't always agree with the Ganus approach, but would not mind starting with his hodge podge either. If it is a guy that gathers 20 freebees from the guy down the street, now would not want to do that. If a guy bought a hodge podge of say the top 10 birds in the Flamingo that might not be so bad also. Once again get good birds and select hard.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> Amazing how I used to disagree alot with your approach to breeding and now I agree almost completely with you Warren.


Keep in mind that Warren's approach has also changed over the time I have been in this thread. Maybe he is coming closer to your view then you his.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Depends on your definition of Hodge Podge. Ganus brings in a hodge podge of National Ace pigeons. Don't always agree with the Ganus approach, but would not mind starting with his hodge podge either. If it is a guy that gathers 20 freebees from the guy down the street, now would not want to do that. If a guy bought a hodge podge of say the top 10 birds in the Flamingo that might not be so bad also. Once again get good birds and select hard.


Ganus hasn't bred a family of birds closely related that perform. He simply markets what's hot or brings in birds that have performed from lesser known fliers overseas and slaps a cool name on them to sell babies for a grand and up.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One question I always ask myself to help me see which birds are my most valuable is: If I only could take 5 cocks and 5 hens and start from scratch which birds would they be. Then direct my focus around those 10 birds. For me that is about 20% of my birds. Makes me think of age of the birds, racing and breeding results. Takes a lot into consideration. Helps also to see what is not important in your loft.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I currently have 20 pairs of breeders. about 5 or 6 birds will exit the program and be replaced by better. I was just throwing 10 pair out as an arbitrary number. I need 20 pairs to get me the birds I need. Just thought 10 pairs could give a nice size race team to assess and get you racing in a year. If I did not want to race, I would probably start with fewer pair say 3 or 4 and work for better quality. I am confident in all 40 of my breeders. *In fact I have about 45 that I categorize as very good. *I limit 20 pairs due to management and space. Out of the 10 pair I mentioned they would be from a few families of birds and fliers that fly well at all levels. Say three pairs from each and maybe a chance pair.


 I don't really know how many SFL USA banded birds will be housed in our various facilities for the 2013 breeding season. My loft partner has somewhere between 50-60 pairs. I reduced my personal special projects from 11 pairs to 5 cocks and 7 hens. Of which I am once again willing to contribute a few thousand to a special prize fund, that the winner will come from one of those 5 cocks, and not from the 50 or 60 cocks under the loft manager. And not only those, but thousands of other pairs owned by others as well. 

The question I have, is between my partner and I, we may have three times the pairs you have, and are not convinced that we own more then 3 or 4 good ones in the whole bunch. So how did you acquire 45 "very good" pigeons ?


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> Ganus hasn't bred a family of birds closely related that perform. He simply markets what's hot or brings in birds that have performed from lesser known fliers overseas and slaps a cool name on them to sell babies for a grand and up.


Point was is that if you had the hodge podge of what Ganus brought in and put a breeding system to the hodge podge, they would probably be a good group of birds.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't really know how many SFL USA banded birds will be housed in our various facilities for the 2013 breeding season. My loft partner has somewhere between 50-60 pairs. I reduced my personal special projects from 11 pairs to 5 cocks and 7 hens. Of which I am once again willing to contribute a few thousand to a special prize fund, that the winner will come from one of those 5 cocks, and not from the 50 or 60 cocks under the loft manager. And not only those, but thousands of other pairs owned by others as well.
> 
> The question I have, is between my partner and I, we may have three times the pairs you have, and are not convinced that we own more then 3 or 4 good ones in the whole bunch. So how did you acquire 45 "very good" pigeons ?


My very good and your very good are different. Your very good is to beed a Flamingo winner, mine is to breed a club race winner. If you used that as your measuring stick, many more would be good.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Honestly, Warren, I may not be to the point at which I think any of my pairs can breed the Flamingo winner. My only measuring stick is my club with 30 or so fliers that band 2000 birds a year and end up flying 400 or so a race 10 times a year. I know I can win there and I know which birds can win. I call these very good. I do also think our club has some of the best competition and birds in the country for its size. Members win futurities and do well in the South African Race. Maybe one of these days this poor teacher can afford to send a few to the big races and really see what they are made of.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

An idea of my very good would be one of my middle of the road hens. She is off one of my race winners and a sister to a race winner. She flew well and was retired after about 4 races when she hit a wire. She has bred me in three years about 6 points birds, and two top 10 birds with two different Cocks. I have not leveled them yet, but she would be in the 7-12 rage of my 20 hens.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Keep in mind that Warren's approach has also changed over the time I have been in this thread. Maybe he is coming closer to your view then you his.


 I hadn't thought of that....sometimes I read an old post and I think "Yeah that guy is right on !" and sometimes it is me, and I don't even remember writing it. My basic premise I don't think has changed since I reestablished a colony in 2002. 

Acquire some number of good specimens, preferably race winners, from a well bred family, where there is amble evidence of "good genes" throughout the family tree. Winning siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. and evidence that these "winning genes" are moving down through generations. 

Where I think I sort of left the reservation, was when I allowed myself to be talked into introducing crosses too early, and too often. I allowed the fears of others to influence my thinking. Fearful of, oh my goodness, becoming "too inbred" and all the terrible things that would supposedly entail. All of those daily grave warnings, of how "all great racers are crosses", took their effect and I allowed myself to become distracted.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Point was is that if you had the hodge podge of what Ganus brought in and put a breeding system to the hodge podge, they would probably be a good group of birds.


 If you spent a few decades trying to sort through them. Look at all of the entries in all of the One Loft events he is in around the world. With the millions spent to buy a whole Heitz 57 bunch of race winners, to be used as breeders, you would think he would win a much larger portion. 

So no, the principal still applies, even if one has a very large budget, IMHO. Besides, I think I would rather acquire a few of the pairs which actually produced those Ace or Super Crack Winners, and not the racers themselves.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Where I think I sort of left the reservation, was when I allowed myself to be talked into introducing crosses too early, and too often. I allowed the fears of others to influence my thinking. Fearful of, oh my goodness, becoming "too inbred" and all the terrible things that would supposedly entail. All of those daily grave warnings, of how "all great racers are crosses", took their effect and I allowed myself to become distracted.


When you left the reservation is about the time I think I started disagreeing with you. I believe a breeder who leaves a legacy is one who is successful because of his well established family, not because he cherry picks from other successful families. I am glad you are back.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

A small loft could emulate a guy like Marcel Sangers who pinpointed the few select birds he wanted, started a family and from the get go had success. He resently moved and the success continued. Saved him years of selection. Seems like the theme of success we see often is in the first selection of birds. This is probably why you see success by guys like Thone and Berckmoes who were loft managers first for some of the greats. It was not magic that they all of a sudden had great birds. They knew which birds were the best.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> An idea of my very good would be one of my middle of the road hens. She is off one of my race winners and a sister to a race winner. She flew well and was retired after about 4 races when she hit a wire. She has bred me in three years about 6 points birds, and two top 10 birds with two different Cocks. I have not leveled them yet, but she would be in the 7-12 rage of my 20 hens.


IMHO I think you would find more enjoyment/success if you focused your efforts on a few key birds such as her and bred around them. Just curious but why do you breed so many birds if you fly in such a small club and no one loft races? I don't doubt that you have good birds but I think we all have a tendency to keep birds for nostalgia reasons when they won't actually move us forward.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> When you left the reservation is about the time I think I started disagreeing with you. I believe a breeder who leaves a legacy is one who is successful because of his well established family, not because he cherry picks from other successful families. I am glad you are back.


West, feed us some more of your selection methods. I hope the readers are getting something out of the banter going on in here, I know I am.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> IMHO I think you would find more enjoyment/success if you focused your efforts on a few key birds such as her and bred around them. Just curious but why do you breed so many birds if you fly in such a small club and no one loft races? I don't doubt that you have good birds but I think we all have a tendency to keep birds for nostalgia reasons when they won't actually move us forward.


West, if you looked my pedigrees over you would see a very different story. I started my loft with 12 birds. I have brought maybe 6 or so key birds in that show a bit in the bloodlines. My best two cocks are represented almost 100% in every bird in my loft. Ed and Kahuna are two of the original 12. I am breeding from 7 direct offspring of Kahuna and 5 of Kahuna. Most others are grandchildren of the two. The family of 3 birds that I brought in to breed last year were crossed with Kahuna and his offspring. I have one other cock of the original 12 that has bred me a high points bird and two hens. One is the nest mate of Ed and the other a half sister. Both have bred winners. My family is probably more line bred than the majority. Much more in line with what you and Warren are talking about. Like Warren I have brought in a few outsiders. 801 a Houben from Mark. I have 1 daughter and one grandson, 620 blood of Warren's, the last bird left to Josepe, A grandson of Ikon, down to one daughter, and my daughter of Verenque, 1st Nat Borgues winner, She is on loan and I am moving her son out of the breeding loft. Mark thinks they are too related. Me, I can't find better.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

That is 7 of Ed.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> IMHO I think you would find more enjoyment/success if you focused your efforts on a few key birds such as her and bred around them. Just curious but why do you breed so many birds if you fly in such a small club and no one loft races? I don't doubt that you have good birds but I think we all have a tendency to keep birds for nostalgia reasons when they won't actually move us forward.


She is a granddaughter of Ed. Her sire was a bird out of Denver that had 5 top 10% finishes and was second in the loft behind her mother who had a win and a 3rd place finish. He bred the two top young birds that year and they produced a winner her sister. I wanted the race winner, but all I got was the sister.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

West said:


> When you left the reservation is about the time I think I started disagreeing with you. I believe a breeder who leaves a legacy is one who is successful because of his well established family, not because he cherry picks from other successful families. I am glad you are back.


Interesting, I never heard it expressed like that, but I think you are correct. 

It only occurred to me in recent years, that my loft manager is susceptible to a mild form of "flavor" of the month kind of thinking. Always looking and sorting through new lines looking for some special cross. He likes to acquire large kits and tests them to find possible cross material. So I am going to blame him for distracting me. If a person sincerely believes their method will bring success then they can be quite convincing. 

I don't want to come off as a "know it all", but I suspect if his theory was correct, he would have discovered a rich gold vein by now, being that he has had pigeons going back to the 1950's. There have been winners over that time, better then most I suspect, but not the kind that creates world famous legends.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

I won't go into physical characteristics as that is a huge can of worms but I base my selections around closely related key performers. I want to see many winners throughout the pedigree, very little bred for stock. If you look at the performers pedigree and notice the top/bottom are related then you know the genes are there. Since I'm in the military I'll put in terms like this, if you breed from crosses you mine as well be shooting at a 1000m target, you'll get a winner occasionally because of 2 things, you have an idea of what you're doing or you got lucky. Now breeding from a closely bred performance family would be like shooting at the 500m target, if you know what you're doing you will hit the target much more often than someone just off the street. Selection becomes the next area of concern, I have my opinions but what it really boils down to is my breeders come from a performance background, because all else is just wishful thinking. Time to eat my Taco Bell.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> When you left the reservation is about the time I think I started disagreeing with you. I believe a breeder who leaves a legacy is one who is successful because of his well established family, not because he cherry picks from other successful families. I am glad you are back.


West you might appreciate this? Last year I was short a couple of cock birds. I burrowed from my mentor a son of Motown Missile. He was a bit older and I got two youngsters, I stocked them in the flying loft and let them pair up and have a few youngsters. The babies did not fly all that well. Only have one son left. Probably just fly him around. Loved the pedigree, not the results.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> West, feed us some more of your selection methods. I hope the readers are getting something out of the banter going on in here, I know I am.


My above was in reply to this.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> West you might appreciate this? Last year I was short a couple of cock birds. I burrowed from my mentor a son of Motown Missile. He was a bit older and I got two youngsters, I stocked them in the flying loft and let them pair up and have a few youngsters. The babies did not fly all that well. Only have one son left. Probably just fly him around. Loved the pedigree, not the results.


Solid move. Please don't take my comments as if I'm being condescending or anything, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate since no one else is talking much.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Interesting, I never heard it expressed like that, but I think you are correct.
> 
> It only occurred to me in recent years, that my loft manager is susceptible to a mild form of "flavor" of the month kind of thinking. Always looking and sorting through new lines looking for some special cross. He likes to acquire large kits and tests them to find possible cross material. So I am going to blame him for distracting me. If a person sincerely believes their method will bring success then they can be quite convincing.
> 
> I don't want to come off as a "know it all", but I suspect if his theory was correct, he would have discovered a rich gold vein by now, being that he has had pigeons going back to the 1950's. There have been winners over that time, better then most I suspect, but not the kind that creates world famous legends.


I think too many people have that FOTM mentality. In fact I feel this is the same case for Ganus, if he truely found that super breeder like he writes all over every pedigree, he would focus his breeding efforts around those few super breeders, rather than bringing in new birds as he must do to stay relevant.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> Solid move. Please don't take my comments as if I'm being condescending or anything, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate since no one else is talking much.


I get it, we all need to have someone make us reflect back and answer to yourselves. I have put myself out there and would not expect anything different. Warren usually helps me in this department.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

West said:


> I think too many people have that FOTM mentality. In fact I feel this is the same case for Ganus, if he truely found that super breeder like he writes all over every pedigree, he would focus his breeding efforts around those few super breeders, rather than bringing in new birds as he must do to stay relevant.


I would think Ganus has his stock of those few that he thinks superior that do not make the webpage. I also think he is playing right in the hands of the FOTM group that buy his birds. I had a discussion the other day about CBS. He stocks all the new fads and families for his sales page but when you look at his race records he is still having success with his long time Kiezer Janssen family. Still his best and the one he has put the longest time into.


----------



## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

west , i think u make a lot of sense and most are common sense... i enjoy reading ur comments and ur thoughts about breeding selection.....i think u are a very smart fellow..


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

Oh and my reference to range distances is obviously using the 5.56 as any larger round would increase the velocities and indeed increase the ability to reach out and touch. Sorry a little off topic.

To bring it back on topic, my breeding efforts have been focused on birds descending from the distant Van den bosch. Now I'm not trying to go back in time and re-create some distant champions, but rather keep the gene pools tighter so there is less variety in the outcome. That's my theory at least. Current families with this blood include HVR's, Meulemans (Golden Mattens, Super 73,etc), and Hofkens among others.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Warren would appreciate this. I finally started putting Hillfamilyloft when it asked for the strain on my pedigrees. Have not resorted to "foundation quality" or "One pin tail" yet. Like there to be too many race records in the way.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

R-Tune said:


> west , i think u make a lot of sense and most are common sense... i enjoy reading ur comments and ur thoughts about breeding selection.....i think u are a very smart fellow..


Unlike the rest of us "Smoke Blowers"


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I would think Ganus has his stock of those few that he thinks superior that do not make the webpage. I also think he is playing right in the hands of the FOTM group that buy his birds. I had a discussion the other day about CBS. He stocks all the new fads and families for his sales page but when you look at his race records he is still having success with his long time Kiezer Janssen family. Still his best and the one he has put the longest time into.


I have a double grandson of CBS' 990 that bred me the 28th place bird at the Midwest Convention Race this past summer. He will be paired with his daughter this coming year.


----------



## West (Mar 29, 2009)

R-Tune said:


> west , i think u make a lot of sense and most are common sense... i enjoy reading ur comments and ur thoughts about breeding selection.....i think u are a very smart fellow..


Well thank you. I need to show this to my wife. haha


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I agree with you Randy, what I consider to be a good pigeon and what Warren agrees to be a good pigeon are different. I want to win races, diplomas, get in the top 10% of my club, so those are the type of birds I need. I

I truly also believe that certain birds respond to certain forms of training and management so you might not even be able to fly the best fliers pigeons but you can fly the guy who has at the bottom of the sheet. I went out and got pigeons from a proven family that has flown are course since the 1960s. I got birds off of a Registered Champion and birds that had actually won diplomas or bred diploma winners. Now when I bred those birds together I didn't do much (they are long distance pigeons so that might have something to do with it) but when crossed they were my best.

Now I only bred from them 1 year so I decided I am going to give them a second chance, I'm going to cross them all and hope my crossings do just as well as they did this year, actually I hope they do better!!! 

If this doesn't work out then I'll need to gt rid of them and that'll leave me with two families to work with instead of 3.

P.S.
The reason I have 3 families to begin with:
I flew a Fabry cock and he was my best pigeon so I purchased his parents.
I wanted a speed type bird so I went to Mels Loft (they flew great for me)
I went to my mentor-the best flier and got birds although mainly long distance.


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Interesting, I never heard it expressed like that, but I think you are correct.
> 
> It only occurred to me in recent years, that my loft manager is susceptible to a mild form of "flavor" of the month kind of thinking. Always looking and sorting through new lines looking for some special cross. He likes to acquire large kits and tests them to find possible cross material. So I am going to blame him for distracting me. If a person sincerely believes their method will bring success then they can be quite convincing.
> 
> I don't want to come off as a "know it all", but I suspect if his theory was correct, he would have discovered a rich gold vein by now, being that he has had pigeons going back to the 1950's. There have been winners over that time, better then most I suspect, but not the kind that creates world famous legends.


That's the "mentality" I've been talking about. Each has their way of thinking. Right or wrong, it's their eye and it's probably set. 

Now that you'ven gone the other way, let's hope you keep an open mind and not set yourself for tunnel vision. I already see tunnel vision in you, hehe.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Xueoo said:


> That's the "mentality" I've been talking about. Each has their way of thinking. Right or wrong, it's their eye and it's probably set.
> 
> Now that you'ven gone the other way, let's hope you keep an open mind and not set yourself for tunnel vision. I already see tunnel vision in you, hehe.


 Somehow I missed this post. I will try to be aware going forward, that I may be, or could be, susceptible to an overly narrow view or focus. Certainly has played a role in the past, I suspect. Been able to see it on others, but not in myself. 

Maybe the biggest obstacle to breeding not just "good" pigeons, but "great" ones, is overcoming human nature, and being willing and able to be open to new ways of thinking ?


----------



## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

When a person is breeding livestock to perform, and hopefully excel, in race competition most of the emphasis is generally placed on the sire of the animal. There are some that attribute more than 50% of the importance on the maternal side. I subscribe to that philosophy.
You often see reference to a "bull breeding system" related to a particular cock bird, but rarely see a similar system used in relationship to a special hen. I know it is much more difficult to accomplish due to physical constraints, but if a hen was to produce the numbers in proportion to a cock it would be interesting to see the results.
In any case, I prefer to see outstanding performance in a hen, and even more so outstanding performance from her offspring before I would add her to the breeding loft.
I will add a cock based on pedigree only but never a hen. If such a cock does not produce early then out he goes, because I know the hen has what it takes.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

What I have recognized over the few years that I have been breeding, it that their is some sex linkage in how well the birds breed. One pair throws better breeding cocks while some pairs have better breeding hens. I have had luck taking the cocks form one pair and mating with the hens from another. As far as stocking hens from a particular pair, I would stock any hen off of my bird Kahuna. Any cock birds off my bird Ed. So far those birds are about 75% proficient when sex linking stock birds. Proficiency being top 10 birds or winners. 
When I stock a bird I look for more than one criteria. Pedigree is never a sole tool in stocking birds. Now saying that, I will stock a bird without a race record. But only from the birds mentioned. If you can get a bird that is a winner and sibling of a winner off a pair that produces winners then stock it. Hens are as important to cock birds in my opinion.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One hen that I will add to the stock loft this year is LL1002. She was 3rd from 250miles, is a daughter of Kahuna and is off one of Mark's birds that raced well. The pair also bred another bird that had a top 10 and other 10% finishes. So she meets my criteria for stocking. She has three half sisters that have produced winners, she has a top 10 finish in a race, she is off one of my top cock birds and she is off a bloodline of Mark's whey crossed with mine produced strong race birds. I will mate her to a half brother that has bred three club winners a bond winner. 
One goal should be to select your stock birds to a point where you have a good core of birds that produce points birds. This way it makes your selection that much stricter when adding a bird to your breeding loft. Keep tightening up your criteria until you are only putting winning birds into the stock loft only to replace aging birds. 
I am to the point where I will only bring in top 10 birds or siblings of winners off a select few. One of these days I can get to a winners only mentality.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have to rethink how I do things for a long time I've only kept birds to breed that were 600 mi day birds, now I find myself wanting to do OLR's and my birds just are not bread for that. So now I bought a proven inbread Surebet cock to mate with ?? and take the best hen from that and put with my best 600mi bird and see what happens, I'm just not sure what ?? is yet. any ideas?
Dave


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/pdf/GOOD SAMARITAN.pdf
this is a good read about mixing your long distance blood with speed birds. Bob Kinney brought in Janssens to cross with his long distance Gordons. You never know.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well that was a good read, Silvio is very long winded but I think I have an idea on what to do I'll let you know if it works.
Dave


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> What I have recognized over the few years that I have been breeding, it that their is *some sex linkage* in how well the birds breed. One pair throws better breeding cocks while some pairs have better breeding hens. I have had luck taking the cocks form one pair and mating with the hens from another. As far as stocking hens from a particular pair, I would stock any hen off of my bird Kahuna. Any cock birds off my bird Ed. So far those birds are about 75% proficient when sex linking stock birds. Proficiency being top 10 birds or winners.
> When I stock a bird I look for more than one criteria. Pedigree is never a sole tool in stocking birds. Now saying that, I will stock a bird without a race record. But only from the birds mentioned. If you can get a bird that is a winner and sibling of a winner off a pair that produces winners then stock it. *Hens are as important to cock birds *in my opinion.


 I have suspected for some time that a sex linkage exists. It seems to me somewhat ironic, that fanciers will pay a huge fortune to own an offspring of a famous stud racer, while for all intensive purposes, they will ignore this great racer's sister. 

To compound the challenges we face as breeders, I have also suspected that some genetic lines may be "male" lines and "female" lines. For whatever reason, there does not appear to be that many fanciers who pay attention to this idea of "maternal" vs "paternal" lines. Maybe I am just off my rocker, or have fallen off the deep end ? Regardless, I have come to the conclusion in my family of birds, that the females of this genetic line are a key in this process. So, it was no accident that I acquired hens from my European breeder, whose brothers were key race winners and Champions.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> I have to rethink how I do things for a long time I've only kept birds to breed that were 600 mi day birds, now I find myself wanting to do OLR's and my birds just are not bread for that. So now I bought a proven inbread Surebet cock to mate with ?? and take the best hen from that and put with my best 600mi bird and see what happens, I'm just not sure what ?? is yet. any ideas?
> Dave


I would try and acquire a few birds from a bloodline that is faster than yours that you know are proven produces. If you choose the Surebet birds make sure they have a recent race or breeding record. Many times you will find the last performance record is back two or three generations. Like many not all Surebet birds are good. Bob Kinney purchased his birds from one loft race auctions from one line of birds. His theory is that a fancier would not send his junk to a one loft race.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I have suspected for some time that a sex linkage exists. It seems to me somewhat ironic, that fanciers will pay a huge fortune to own an offspring of a famous stud racer, while for all intensive purposes, they will ignore this great racer's sister.
> 
> To compound the challenges we face as breeders, I have also suspected that some genetic lines may be "male" lines and "female" lines. For whatever reason, there does not appear to be that many fanciers who pay attention to this idea of "maternal" vs "paternal" lines. Maybe I am just off my rocker, or have fallen off the deep end ? Regardless, I have come to the conclusion in my family of birds, that the females of this genetic line are a key in this process. So, it was no accident that I acquired hens from my European breeder, whose brothers were key race winners and Champions.


You do not find much written about this issue. I have been tracking one of my best pairs that has been together since 2005. Both sexes of offspring have won races and breed winners, but the males on average produce better birds. many genes are sex-linked in animals. Not sure what genes if any are linked in racing or homing ability, but my limited results are enough to at least chase a theory. When I get enough data on pairs that have been together for a few years I will put something together. I have also noticed birds like my Kahuna who has had multiple mates has raised quality hens with all. This year he will be with a granddaughter race winner. Her sire is son of my other hit pair that raises better cock birds. She is off my second most consistent pair right now. The pattern is Cock to daughter, Hen to son. Cross the son and daughter produce a winning daughter and then cross her back to the original cock her grandfather. I will let you know how things work out.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

With little data and limited scientific data to support my theory, I still would select the opposite sexed offspring of a key bird. In other words if I got a Surebet baby I would want a hen. Another example is that I have a nice hen who has bred some quality birds with different partners. She bred my 2nd high points birds who was a cock bird. She also bred another cock bird that bred me a winner. I am tracking her offspring as well for sex-linkage.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I think if I were to start over I would look to the best flyers that win in my area and buy eggs off their racing pairs. Raise up 30 babies , slect from the best in that group and breed again from them, race the young, and pair best to best. I want a prefect pear shape body. silkey wings , great balance etc, etc. I don't think anyone that sells bird ever gives you their best. That is what make this so hard for some to find success in racing. They always think they can buy their was to the top. Its a life long trip . Remember the best racers are always crosses.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Plan for developing a grizzle family using the theory. I bred a cock bird out of my consistent pair that finished 3rd at 250 miles and also finished the 400 and 500 mile races. He is a BC and was paired with a grizzle hen that also finished the 500 and was on the drop with him. He is LL699. He bred a grizzle hen that I brought back after the race season. She had numerous 10% races. I will breed her to one of my cock birds from my best pair of breeders Ed and Charlotte. I will fly the young birds and bring back the best flying grizzle bird. I will probably acquire another 699 grizzle offspring to mate with the best flier. This way I have grizzle birds off a proven cock bird and a proven pair. The grizzles will have all but 1/4 of my best bloodlines. I will probably have to breed for color in there somewhere. Need to consult with Becky on that one.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ERIC K said:


> I think if I were to start over I would look to the best flyers that win in my area and buy eggs off their racing pairs. Raise up 30 babies , slect from the best in that group and breed again from them, race the young, and pair best to best. I want a prefect pear shape body. silkey wings , great balance etc, etc. I don't think anyone that sells bird ever gives you their best. That is what make this so hard for some to find success in racing. They always think they can buy their was to the top. Its a life long trip . Remember the best racers are always crosses.


Every once in a while you can find a guy who will sell you birds off his best. Finding a breeder who sends birds only to one loft races and does not fly his own might be just the place. The usually breed extra birds to fly around the loft or for breeders or for sale. Most fliers keep their best for the race team. 
I breed an extra round with the intention of flying around the house etc. Mark breeds extra from his key birds etc. Not that our birds are what you want, but I always have birds off my best Pairs. My birds came from my mentors best birds. He is a one loft flier only. I acquired late hatch babies off his best. It can be done.


----------



## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Breeding and racing pigeons is fraught with complexity. Other than " one loft" races, the birds do not have an opportunity to attempt to beat any bird other than their own loft mates. One can not attempt to beat a competitor that is not even going to the same finish line?
In most cases, I don't believe that pigeons are consciously attempting to win a race home. Do you see birds exercising around the loft in a manner that indicates they are competing with one another? If you are able to identify such a bird, then I think that you have a rare find.
Some other motivation is at work. The love of home, the urge to return to a mate or the instinct to return to the nest and/or babies. This innate motivation is seemingly stronger in some birds than others and perhaps in particular families of birds?
Nutrition, physical conditioning and overall management of the colony and individual bird all plays an important role, as does hybrid vigor. The physical appearance, in many cases, is not a good indicator of race potential. There is that element that can not be identified by physical appearance or conformation that is the key, and it is the real challenge to recognize it and to duplicate it?


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> So will you take a bird off the young bird teem and use it for a breeder if it was a top 10 bird in multiple races? This is the first year in a long time that I have tried to win a short race. I wont keep a bird to breed till it has flown at least 3 600 mile race on the day.
> 
> I have to learn whole new way to select breeders for the short races.
> Dave


That is only one criteria. She is off a proven breeding pair. Her sire and dam both flew well. Her sire is off my best pair. The pair has bred other good birds. 
Now for what I am selecting for. I am a young bird only flier. I breed birds for a few select races and breed them to fly in the young bird series in ABQ nm. Their are about 10 races from 100-400, with two 300s and a 400 mile race. The other races are shorter. I am looking for fast maturing young birds that win or have solid race records. Selecting for 600 mile races as old birds do not do me any good. If I flew old birds and long races, I would select much like you do. But if they are good as young birds and are off good stock they are what I am looking for.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ERIC K said:


> I think if I were to start over I would look to the best flyers that win in my area and buy eggs off their racing pairs. Raise up 30 babies , slect from the best in that group and breed again from them, race the young, and pair best to best. I want a prefect pear shape body. silkey wings , great balance etc, etc. I don't think anyone that sells bird ever gives you their best. That is what make this so hard for some to find success in racing. They always think they *can buy their was to the top.* Its a life long trip .* Remember the best racers are always crosses.*


 The President of our club is fond of saying that. Of course, my question is always crosses of what ? When is a line straight, and when is it a cross ? I always assumed that a cross by definition would have to be the pairing of two straight lines. If that is the case, then where do the "straight" lines come from ? If crosses make the idea racers, then that would mean the straight lines will make the best breeders. Because how could one produce a cross, without two straight lines ? And when does a "cross" become so crossed, that it isn't even a cross anymore but a "mixed" breed or mongrel ? How many generations of cross to cross does it take to make a new straight line ? I digress....but if the best racers are crosses, then one should start with two lines which cross well. If I understand the theory. 

Not only is it a life long journey, but the vast majority will never even come close to the mountain top. Genetic evolution is simply too slow, and at the speed of change that most lofts progress at, most fanciers will not live long enough to be able to work with hundreds of generations. So vast majority of us are destined to the math category of average I am afraid. 

I do agree you can't buy your way to the top, but if one has $ it sure helps when it comes to buying that special bird you think can move your colony to the next level. Or build a loft that will house your future champions. Certainly wouldn't want to start all over again with feral pigeons or birds purchased for .75 cents at farmers market like I started with. Had I not acquired any better birds since then, it would have taken me the last 40+ years just trying to get them to even be average homing pigeons. As where I started was with a feral line not to far removed from original rock dove. Yes I could do it, but perhaps it would have taken me a few thousand years. 

I would rather buy a closely bred family of winners, which the owner had carefully bred for decades. Might not be able to buy way to top that way, but sure beats relying on the culls of others. Maybe a few decades can be saved, as then one could pick up where other fancier left off. I suspect starting with average pigeons and attempting to breed up to combine champion level, or national or world ace champion, well again, I suspect it could be done, but there are many others attempting to progress at same time. If you not moving ahead and fairly fast, then you are falling behind. As everyone is saying they select based on performance, and breed best to best.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

When I say crosses I mean from race birds that have the qualitys which you want. body type , feather quality , ability to go it alone to its home and do it faster than any other bird that day. Those birds do exist in lofts all over the country and the world. You can buy where ever you want to and spend X. I don't have that luxury or the dollars. I get pigeon here and there and mix and blend some by luck and some with the help of people that have many years of breeding experence. I forgot to say the all important basket test when picking breeders. 

I do know a guy that is in the business of breeding OLR birds and one of his best familys this year , that is winning all over the country is a four way cross. True some where , somebody might have line breed and in breed these pigeons but I bet they did this all from proven raced pigeons.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have always loved the distance, and I would put my family of birds up against any body, I wish there was an OLR for 2 year olds. I always thought I could do good at young birds if I tried, wrong, I tried I sent a team to Warrens Winnerscup in 2010 they were out of my best, didn't make it to the first race.

I blame all this on you guys, I've been reading about your wins in the young bird races for several years now. You say you can't buy your way to the top, But you can if you buy the rite birds and have a lot of luck. This year I won the 100mi race, some thing I've never done, and he was a top 10 bird all the way to 300mi. I hauled my birds all the way to 400 on my own and he didn't do as good, this year he goes back to his mother a jansen fabry cross and we will see what happens.
Dave


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Selection criteria should drive you. What are you looking for. Do you want to win the South African Race, a one-loft race, your club races, average speed, high points bird etc. What is your goal. Long distance etc. Our club has a $4000 prize for the first and fastest 500 mile day bird. None have succeeded yet. Biggest problem is geographic. Every direction but two you have to fly over large mountains. Of the two one is into Mexico which is out of the question and the next is Due West at 300 miles the elevation drops from 7000feet to 1000 feet in the next 200 miles not to mention you hit the hottest desert in the US. The race is usually flown up the I25 corridor into Wyoming. The club is yet to find that breed of bird to finish the race in a day. 699 the fore-mentioned bird made it next morning from Rock Springs Wyoming. His great grandpa was David's Perfection, a club and combine winner at 400 and 500 miles. He was bred with a long distance line.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> I have always loved the distance, and I would put my family of birds up against any body, I wish there was an OLR for 2 year olds. I always thought I could do good at young birds if I tried, wrong, I tried I sent a team to Warrens Winnerscup in 2010 they were out of my best, didn't make it to the first race.
> 
> I blame all this on you guys, I've been reading about your wins in the young bird races for several years now. You say you can't buy your way to the top, But you can if you buy the rite birds and have a lot of luck. This year I won the 100mi race, some thing I've never done, and he was a top 10 bird all the way to 300mi. I hauled my birds all the way to 400 on my own and he didn't do as good, this year he goes back to his mother a jansen fabry cross and we will see what happens.
> Dave


Dave you might hit some of those ABQ guys up to fly a bird or two if you think they can get home in a day from 500. They would probably share the winnings.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

That 500 is in old birds?
Dave


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> That 500 is in old birds?
> Dave


Yes they would have to fly a season of young birds and finish two 300s and a 400. They have an auction race for outside breeders. You would have to make a deal.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Dave have you ever thought about a trade of pigeons. Long distance for some 300 mile birds.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> Dave have you ever thought about a trade of pigeons. Long distance for some 300 mile birds.


Never have, but Im starting to.
Dave


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Sorry for book like response....*



Crazy Pete said:


> I have always loved the distance, and I would put my family of birds up against any body, I wish there was an OLR for 2 year olds. I always thought I could do good at young birds if I tried, wrong, I tried I sent a team to Warrens Winnerscup in 2010 they were out of my best, didn't make it to the first race.
> 
> I blame all this on you guys, I've been reading about your wins in the young bird races for several years now. You say you can't buy your way to the top, But you can if you buy the rite birds and have a lot of luck. This year I won the 100mi race, some thing I've never done, and he was a top 10 bird all the way to 300mi. I hauled my birds all the way to 400 on my own and he didn't do as good, this year he goes back to his mother a jansen fabry cross and we will see what happens.
> Dave


Well Dave, you are not alone, I can't remember what my birds did in the 2010 Cup Series, I suspect due to selective memory loss. Only reason to look back, is to look at some isolated win, or something more positive anyway, to look to as your own self measuring stick. Am I producing better, the same, or worse ? And even getting a bird to complete a series, in order to be shipped back home, is sometimes all that one has to show for it, and sometimes not even that.

One year you are wondering why you embarrassed yourself and spent the money, and next year with different pairing, they not only make it home, but in the money. One has to be determined as one's own birds. Don't quit on them, and they won't quit on you. 

In your example of the cock that was a 100 mile winner, and did well up to 300. I don't know anything about this bird or it's background, just from information you provided. Have not seen the bird, or looked at what you have available. From an academic point of view, I currently face, and have faced such choices before. I question in my own mind, if such a cock, should in fact be utilized in such an intense line breeding way ?

What might lean me in your same direction, is if the cock you mention is the best specimen from your Janssen/Fabry hen, and she is the gem of your loft, and it is her genes you are attempting to breed around and stack. I face such a situation myself, and I don't pretend to know the answer. 

My Queen, could be bred to a winning son, or a winning grandson, or simply "cross" her with another branch within same extended family tree, which is most likely to produce a "racer" as opposed to an inbred so-so racer, but hopefully useful breeder. Am currently leaning towards attempting to produce additional race winners, with goal of increasing number of half brothers and sisters from more distant relatives within family tree, so as to prolong number of generations before an out-cross becomes absolutely necessary. As all of the members of the breeding colony are already related. 

Regardless of what road you or I, or any of the readers might take. The sober reality, is what we do this breeding season, will impact our available choices for generations. In my mind, I am attempting to visualize not only the end of the year race reports for 2013, but the specimens I will have at end of 2013, to retain for 2014 breeding season. If that picture in my head get's blurry, then I suspect the results will be as well. Sort of like my memory of the 2010 Cup series. My mind has been going through dozens of pairing combinations, trying to foresee the outcomes. Maybe a bit like reviewing uncut stones, and trying to visualize the polished diamond at the end. There are diamonds in that gene field, but tons of average and low grade ore as well. Plain ole luck will play a huge role, but just trying to find the richer veins, in hope of increasing odds a bit. Looking for that 2 or 3 out of a hundred and maybe, just maybe, every few years produce those 2 or 3 out of a thousand. I just can't think of any other way to speed up the process or increase the odds. 

I have removed about half my breeding stock for 2013 breeding season, I have completely closed off the gene pool, and purged the colony of any outside influences. Now will be working exclusively with family members only. This preliminary move is designed to "purify" the strain. The closer they get, the more critical every selection becomes, as I may have already headed the colony towards the abyss. No telling what these dice will roll. If the results in some number of generations match up to the pictures inside my head, the result will be a purebred strain, with such a degree of uniformity, that placed into a basket with dozens of other pigeons, that even a novice will be able to point to one of these birds and be able to identify it as one from this colony. 

For the record, I do not advocate that anyone follow my example. The odds of "success" in terms of producing better racers then I already own, I think are stacked against me. I already bought the chips, and the casino is not giving refunds, so I am doubling down, and doing about the same thing as betting the farm on a 60 to 1 long shot. I am figuring that worse that can happen, I end up with pigeons I enjoy looking at, and self satisfaction of saying yeah I did that. 

I am simply duplicating what I have done with another colony of high flying pigeons this past decade. Closed off the breeding colony generations ago, and it has since evolved into something approaching a new breed. Originals were started with pigeons from Bosnia where fancier had formed a tippler like breed from pigeons in Bosnia and then later in USA. I later crossed in a high flying pigeon, and have bred mother to father, bro to sister or whoever was left around, I think I am at 5 or 6 generations. And several times I reduced to just four pigeons. Only time will tell how such an approach will affect a racing pigeon colony.


----------

