# Pmv ?



## Guest (Mar 9, 2007)

Anyone who reads this is going to become very confused about a true PMV and rightly so:

http://tinyurl.com/2tggcd

Stargazing appears most frequently in finches. Stargazing
is sometimes also referred to as Twirling. The disease appears
to strike at random and without warning or past history of
problems.


Star Gazing is most common in Gouldian Finches but has been
seen in a few other species. 


Signs & Symptoms of Star Gazing may include:

* Dizziness
* Throwing head back
* Rolling head from one side to the other
* Looking at the ceiling a lot
* Rolling head upside down
* Gradual loss of balance
* Sleeping with head between legs
* Circling


As disease advances:
* Larger amount of loss of balance/equilibrium
* Difficulty moving around in cage
* Inability to fly
* Inability to perch
* Inability to find food or water dish, resulting in starvation

The end result of stargazing is almost always death.



What Cause Stargazing / Twirling?

Actually, no one really knows for sure what causes star gazing in

birds. Here are a few theories that are out there:

* Viral infection
* Bacterial infection
* Yeast infection
* Chemical imbalance in body
* Vitamin and/or mineral deficiency
* Genetic predisposition
* Inner ear problem


Treatment for Stargazing

There really is no treatment that is effective on a large scale.
Just about any treatment you could imagine has been tried.

Here are three treatments for stargazing that have been reported
as being fairly effective.

1. The drug Nystatin

2. The drug Trimethoprim Sulfa (one drop per day)

3. Vitamin B 12. (one drop in mouth per day, 5 - 6 drops in
8 ounces water)

Breeders commonly cull birds with stargazing symptoms, and
if a bird is cured, they are not allowed to be bred.


Prevention of Stargazing

While there are no absolute certainties, we believe these steps
will go a long way towards prevention, and obviously in keeping
your bird in the overall best health possible.

1. Provide the best nutrition possible for your bird with the
variety it needs.

2. Pure, steam distilled water, kept fresh and uncontaminated.

3. Cage cleanliness.

4. Fresh, pure air.

5. Exercise

6. Love and interaction with your pet.


----------



## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

i must be missing something obvious. is star gazing different from pmv? if not where does the confusion lie?


----------



## Guest (Mar 9, 2007)

Look at all the symptoms. They are exactly like PMV. Now look at the causes. PMV is a virus but there are other possible reasons for the symptoms and they aren't necessarily the paramyxo virus.


----------



## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

i see. so stargazing can exist independently of pmv. hmmm.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Aias said:


> i see. so stargazing can exist independently of pmv. hmmm.


Yes, paratyphoid, for one can also result in stargazing. This article is basically saying that there are other things that have the same symptoms .. it gets difficult to figure out sometimes ..

Terry


----------



## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I beg to differ about the end result of stargazing being death. Birds which have exhibited stargazing have recovered (quite a few of them actually).


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

JGregg said:


> I beg to differ about the end result of stargazing being death. Birds which have exhibited stargazing have recovered (quite a few of them actually).


Actually most do if given a chance and good supportive care. That's PMV or other viral problems .. if it's paratyphoid or something else that's bacterial or fungal that needs treatment, then you'd better treat it with the appropriate medications.

Terry


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Quote, in part from the article:
_*Stargazing* appears most frequently in finches. Stargazing
is sometimes also referred to as Twirling. *The disease* *appears
to strike at random and without warning or past history of
problems*._

I've never heard of 'stargazing' as being a *disease*. Rather a *'symptom' *of a disease/illness. 

Cindy


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, a symptom and with potentially many different pathogenic causes. You know when I went to the site, there was no authorship to the article that I could see. I think this is the value to having citations w/articles as it really does make a difference if written by someone w/a medical background, scientific, etc.

This person raises some good points, though the framework is somewhat confusing, more so than it perhaps should be for a reference material.

fp


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Look at all the symptoms. They are exactly like PMV.


Those are *some* of the symptoms of PMV seen in another species. Other symptoms of PMV that aren't shared with the finches are the tiny tremors of the eyes (nystagmus), head and wing tremors, wormlike poops, thirst and extremely watery droppings, pecking at seed and missing and seed tossing.

When trying to diagose we have to take everything into account: the species, the history of the bird, all the symptoms , the balance of probabilities that it is one disease rather than another etc.

I may be wrong but that looks like an article about caged finches. If an indoor pigeon presented itself with those symptoms and there was no history of contact with other pigeons then I would consider that the balance of probabilities shifted away from PMV and look at other causes. 

We know that other conditions have symptoms that are similar to PMV. So if we are in doubt we look to the difference between PMV and other illnesses to reach a diagnosis or to testing is appropriate. For example, the symptom that paratyphoid shares with PMV is the stargazing. As far as I know the other PMV symptoms are not seen in paratyphoid (but please correct me if I am wrong) There are also two significant differences between PMV and whatever disease the finches suffer from and those are:

a) They don't know the cause and

b) all victims die.

You are right in concluding that anyone reading the link you provided would become confused. I am a bit confused about why you used PMV as you title when I assume that your point is that nervous symptoms can have many causes including PMV.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I found this on another forum, it is not something that I have tried but I will experiment, if it works it will allay Fred's fears that we may think a pigeon that is "stargazing" has PMV when there could be another cause for that particular symptom. I don't know if this works on finches.:



> Picked up a useful pointer to tell if its PMV from a DEFRA vet, published in the BHW: Guy had 'neck & head twisting' but thought he was dealing with paratyphoid
> 
> Stand close to the bird and point a finger at the wattle. Then slowly scribe a circle with this finger. If the bird has PMV, the bird's head will follow your finger.


http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/m-1147225530/


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> *I found this on another forum, it is not something that I have tried but I will experiment*, if it works it will allay Fred's fears that we may think a pigeon that is "stargazing" has PMV when there could be another cause for that particular symptom. I don't know if this works on finches.:


That's intresting Cynthia.

Let's hope you won't have the opportunity to perform the experiment for a very, very, long time.  

Cindy


----------



## Guest (Mar 9, 2007)

Cynthia,
I should have put a question mark after the title PMV. Other birds exhibit these signs so it doesn't seem limited to finches. I've been to parrot groups and the same theories abound about those birds' stargazing. I had one that did that too but it disappeared over the years. 

The reason I posted the item is because the last bird I was telling you about has been stargazing in a way that didn't appear to be like that of other pigeons which have PMV. I can't verbally explain the difference but it was different. Because of that I tried to look up stargazing in birds and came up with this little article. If you remember, I put the bird on Nystatin because the droppings, although looking like PMV, also had the look of a bird that might have a yeast condition plus he was throwing up twice a day and that isn't usual for PMV. The neurological signs are improving too rapidly and that's not the typical course PMV follows so this bird confuses me. I thought he might have another condition besides PMV so he was put on medications. Now, I'm not sure he has PMV at all and yet, a lot of the symptoms were there. I'll just keep going with what I'm doing and I'll let you know what's going on in a few days.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I had King Krames for over three months when he started acting odd (staggering, trembling and looking confused) and a coupke of days later he flew into the wall. After that he showed typical symptoms of PMV. None of my birds showed any symptoms before that or after Krames accident. After about a week he recovered but still a year later he has trouble aiming and picking up seeds and he has tremors once in a while, especially when he gets excited.
My thought was, he might have had PMV sometime earlier in his life and he had a relapse? 
Or he could have had something else. 
I didn't treat him with antibiotics, just supportive care. I am just wondering.
It is very hard to make a diganosis without lab tests.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> I had King Krames for over three months when he started acting odd (staggering, trembling and looking confused) and a coupke of days later he flew into the wall. After that he showed typical symptoms of PMV. None of my birds showed any symptoms before that or after Krames accident. After about a week he recovered but still a year later he has trouble aiming and picking up seeds and he has tremors once in a while, especially when he gets excited.
> My thought was, he might have had PMV sometime earlier in his life and he had a relapse?
> Or he could have had something else.
> I didn't treat him with antibiotics, just supportive care. I am just wondering.
> ...


Wouldn't be some type of ear infection could it??


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2007)

"It is very hard to make a diagnosis without lab tests."

Yes, it can be especially with more possibilities for these symptoms opening up to us. I'm especially concerned about a mis-diagnosis if it is really a yeast infection.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I'm especially concerned about a mis-diagnosis if it is really a yeast infection.


Yeast will show up under the microscope, so a swab test should clear that one.

The few pigeons that I have had that had a yeast infection did not show any symptoms that could be mistaken for PMV. And all the pigeons that I diagnosed as having PMV actually had it, that was shown by the course the disease took.

But I am curious as to why consider that the symptoms of PMV in pigeons are interchangeable with those of a yeast infection? Is this based entirely on the effect of a yeast infection in finches and perhaps other caged birds? Because according to Chevita the common symptoms of a yeast infection in pigeons are "poor growth of young pigeons, accumulation in the crop; whitish fungal growths in the throat."

Added: I have found the answer to my own questions and to Shi's question.



> Wouldn't be some type of ear infection could it??


The answer is that "Twirling" or "Stargazing" in finches can be the result of a fungal infection of the ear and that is what the Nystatin is used to treat.

http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/product_medistatin.mgi

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*PMV in finches*

I found this about PMV in finches:

. Paramyxovirus 3 (PMV 3) "Torticollis"
1. Common disease of "tropical finches"
2. Morbidity low
3. Carrier state may exist for several months prior to signs
4. Diagnosis
a. presumptive - symptoms
b. confirmed - serology, virus isolation
5. Necropsy - not specific
a. histopathology - pancreatitis
6. Rule-out - vitamin-E-deficiency

http://drexotic.com/avian_diseases.htm

Could it be that the finches diagnosed as having a mystery disease of unknown cause were suffering from PMV?

Cynthia


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> Could it be that the finches diagnosed as having a mystery disease of unknown cause were suffering from PMV?
> 
> Cynthia


Sure it's possible but if it's true, there is still plenty of ignorance out there about the real reason for these symptoms in finches. It does get confusing. To eliminate the confusion, every bird should be blood tested. Sure, that's really going to happen.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Yeast will show up under the microscope, so a swab test should clear that one......
> 
> Added: I have found the answer to my own questions and to Shi's question.
> 
> ...


I looked at the link and found it interesting that they are recommending an
oral route of administration for the Nystatin when the two times that I've had a yeast infection in my ear I had to introduce an anti-yeast topical into the ear canal for relief. Nystatin works by coming in contact w/candida.

BTW, vinegar/water solution in the ear w/cotton works great.  

fp


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Nystatin works by coming in contact w/candida.


Yes, I know. I had oral thrush when I was hospitalised, was prescribed Nystatin and told to gargle before swallowing. It tasted delicious! I just wish I had saved some for treating pigeons.

Cynthia


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Yes, I know. I had oral thrush when I was hospitalised, was prescribed Nystatin and told to gargle before swallowing. It tasted delicious! I just wish I had saved some for treating pigeons.
> 
> Cynthia


You're funny...it must have been flavored. Wish it came in Licorice  .

fp


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

OT...just thought I'd add that VINEGAR is GREAT for getting rid of odors! Underarm deordorant quit? Try vinegar...amazing stuff!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Try vinegar...amazing stuff!


Odour Fish'n'Chips 

Cynthia


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Odour Fish'n'Chips
> 
> Cynthia


LOVE vinegar on Fish & Chips!

Didn't mean to use vinegar as SUBSTITUTE for deordorant.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It's great w/brewers yeast and soy sauce on steamed veggies  

fp


----------

