# Update and ivomec question



## turkey (May 19, 2002)

For those who still remember me, I acquired two more pigeons. A white male pigeon named "Snowball" and a racing female blue bar named "Mabel". I got them one month ago and have treated them with Spartrix, Appertex and Ivomec. They are nesting on fake eggs right now. 

I just gave them their second dose of Ivomec yesterday, which was 20 days after their first dose. 

Today Snowbell has me a little concerned. 

Yesterday Snowball was defending his territory as usual by biting me. Today he only puts his beak down on my hand with it open but does not bite. He has not bit me one time today. 

I'm wondering if Ivomec has any side effects. Or if I gave him too much, could it have made him sick. He seems to be acting as if he has the flu. 

He didn't fight me when I picked him up today, which has never happened. Then I stroked his face and he closed his eyes. I did this for about 5 minutes. I felt bad about putting him back in his cage. 

Anyone know if this could be from the Ivomec? 

Julie


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

The medication is toxic if given in too high a dose. How much did you give the bird?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If the dose was too high, is there any antidote that he could have, Fred?

Cynthia


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## Navigator (Jan 2, 2003)

Cynthia, there is no antidote to give him and it is highly possible that you did overdose the little guy. With all the meds that he has received, it would be a good idea to give him some plain yogurt for a few days on his feed. This will help to get his digestive tract back to normal.
There are several grades of Ivormec and this makes it a very dangerous product to use since there is no prescribed dosage on each package (stated for pigeons). It could happen to anyone. At least you won't have to use it again. After he is fully recovered, you can add ACV (apple cider vinegar) to his water weekly so he shouldn't get build up of internal parasites. Good luck.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

A pigeon is a pigeon. You just need to put fresh untreated water in the pen. He should get ok on his own. Yogart is not for pigeons. Try breawers yeast tabelets. Break about three in half and force feed them to him. Do this for about three days. Dosages that are for chickens are about the same for your pigeons. A little over wont cause much harm if any. I trteat my birds 2 times yearly. some treat every three months Grain will have a potinual to give worms. can not stopp it good clean grain grit and fresh air reduce sickness. Rodents carry many things to your birds solve that problem and part is over. Not saying you have that problem. Clean loft fresh air treat and worm and birds live along time. your bird may just be settling down to you and may be getting less agresive to you.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

There's no antidote that I know of, Cynthia.


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey Julie....Sorry to hear about your little guy feeling poor. This does not at all sound like your little guy just getting used to you, you know his behavior and would be the best judge of it, but what you described sounds like a sick/not feeling well pigeon, at least in my lofts. It is possible to overdose a pigeon on Ivomec. I had a pigeon, while i held him, let someone else administer the ivomec, well bad idea, they pushed the syringe too hard and overdosed and killed my bird. It is lethal, no more than 5 drops of Ivomec with a dropper or from a syring with the needle still attached, to provide more control of the drops. Keeping the needle away from the face let someone ELSE hold the bird with the beak open and slowly administer the drops. I also Know of no anecdote for Ivomec, but a suggestion that may work is to call a Veterinarian, Ivomec is used in all practices of vet med large and small, so either might know of one, please let us know if you find one. And I'm sorry ReLee...yes a pigeon is a pigeon for some people, and a dog is a dog for others and so on.....but for others they hold a special place in their hearts, please try and be more sensitive. Yogurt is a yeast byproduct, therefore it is not much different than your brewers yeast suggestion. And even if not, whatever works and does not harm the pigeon is usually acceptable to anyone trying to care for a sick pigeon. Also, placing pigeons on just plain tap water not treated with anything could be harmful to your pigeon, there are many things in city water to not only make us sick, but the pigeon too. I never, ever let my pigeons drink water that has not been treated. My pigeons bathe and drink water that has been treated with Clorox bleach at least 1 or twice a month. This keeps internal parasites and external parasites at bay, and minimizes treatment with medications. If you think about it, that is how city water is treated also, pool water etc. Just 1 tablespoon per gallon, and is all it takes and does not harm the pigeon. It most be Clorox though, no off brands, this is the purest form of bleach available. If you would like more documentation, I maybe able to find it, but many breeders find this as a great preventative. Good luck with your piji!
Amber

[This message has been edited by Amber (edited January 21, 2003).]


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Thank you everyone!'

The only thing I can figure is I gave him too much Ivomec. I used a syringe, no needle, and held him at the same time. The syringe was against my finger, so I could not tell the drops were coming out of the syringe. So, I stopped. I do not know how much he got, but there was not much in the dropper. 

I see that he is not sitting on the nest. I will go and get the brewers yeast tablets today. (I thought I had some) 

I am also going to get Baytril today too. Can I give him both at the same time? 

Julie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What I meant by a pigeon is a pigeon. Is thatIt needs treated like a pigeon . I have seen on these post treatments that I would refur to hook billed birds not pigeons. And untreated water after treatment is better then over kill. Wild pigeons are some of the most healthy pigeons. They drink from different water sources that you would not give your birds to drink. I treat my birds through the drinking water for various things worming included. To much bleach is no good a clean water is better. I have raised pigeons on and off for 45 years. Met hundreds of breeders and seen many thousands of birds. I have never met a pigeon person that used yogert But have met hooked bill breeders that have. Water would flush out the treatment from the bird. to much ivomec should show in the droppings and then they will return to normal in a few days after treatment. Mixing it in the water equel to chicken dosage should not harm the bird let it drink it from the waterer. Do not force it if so have it in a reduced dosage. I am not being rude just was offering a little advice. Treat a pigeon like a pigeon.


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by re lee:
> *.... to much ivomec should show in the droppings and then they will return to normal in a few days after treatment..... *


What will I see in the droppings? 
I'm not sure but I think he's getting better now.

Julie


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by re lee:
> *A pigeon is a pigeon. You just need to put fresh untreated water in the pen. He should get ok on his own. Yogart is not for pigeons. *


Hate to disagree with anyone, but yogurt is used by MANY pigeon folk that I know of -- and some of them raise very expensive racers.

PLAIN yogurt, as was recommended, mixed in with the feed every so often, helps maintain good gut bacteria -- and helps put back good bacteria after a course of antibiotics.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

For vth sake of arguement do what you do. I would never use yogart and do not know anybody who ever has. i will use brewers yeast tablets. and have for over 28 years. But I Do prevention treatment and do not have many sick birds. I use oyster shell tablets prior to breeding season on the hens to insure they have had proper calcium and depend on clean water fresh feed grit and fresh air to keep them healthy. A bird will get sick now and then. Its removed and treated and when and if its healthy returned to loft conditions. Different pigeon supply catalogs are avalible and vet supply stores That have and stock various items to assist in pigeon health. Just because a bird is a little down in the dumps The symptoms determine what you should do. Droppings is a sign of a problem. green watery droppings, droppings with feed mixed bird off weight. not eating, throwing up swollen joints, mucus discharge, white crusty in beak and throut canker of throut or vent. require treatment to coinside to problem. Colored droppings after worming go away after system is flused and treatment stopped. Over medicated birds will throw up if its sulfa or antibiotics. reduce treatment. Some breeders will not mess with a sick bird at all. And some will. Each there own .Regular pigeon mix is avalible to feed the birds This is better then wildbird seed peanuts garlic and the likes I have seen used from this forum. Wildbird seed is not a good qulity seed. pigeons do not eat garlic in the wild peanuts give to much carbohydrates if the bird is not exesised it will get over weight. a fat pigeon is not a healthy pigeon.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I use yogurt for my pigeons too as a probiotic and my very good avian vet also recommended it...

Mary


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

I agree with ReLee, Julie....you do not want to overdose. I would not recommend the baytril after the 3-4 meds you have given him. If you think he is getting better, let time run its course and see how he does. Sometimes too much is harmful also. You dont want to over do it. And ReLee, your right, there is really nothing to argue about, wasnt trying to come across argumentative. But the big difference between any animal in the wild and capitivity when it comes to this is exposure and immunity. Animals (birds) in the wild have a great immunity because they have been exposed to soooo many things, unlike birds whom have lived in captivity since birth. Just like cats and dogs get shots, sometimes there have to be extra precautions taken to protect, since nature hasnt been given the chance. That was all I was trying to say, and then suggested some ways to maybe help her. Didnt mean to put you on the defensive. Julie...also if you have question about droppings or any symptoms that your bird is having you can go to the chevita website. I pasted it under a topic in the Emergency care section..titled "A Good site if you think your pigeon is sick"....Good Luck!
Amber


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

We are on the same track I to apolgize if I came on to strong. Its about the bird Each offer has merit. and what will help is the suggestions. We all learn from each other. And yes if the bird is bettter its on its way to recovery.


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Thanks again for the replies!

I guess it was wishful thinking that he was improving, because he is doing anything different today. At least he's not getting worse. 

I just wanted to clear up the meds thing... I gave him Spartrix and Ivomec, then a few days later I was concerned enough to give him Appertex, then 20 days after I had given him the Spartrix and Ivomec I gave him his second dose of Ivomec (as suggested) which is when he had the problem. So the only recent meds that he got was Ivomec. 

I doubt that is going to make a difference, but just thought I'd clear it up. 

I've been suggested to get him in the sunlight. I keep all of my birds indoors. His cage has a window seat but the sun is not directly on him. So tomorrow, weather permitting, I'll get him in the sun. 

I'll let you know if and when there is an improvement. 

Julie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

JUst was thinking on your problem try pulling the fake eggs. remove them wait five days. and you should notice things have changed. Do not return them . If they are in a set breeding cycle the hen may lay agin in about ten days to two weeks. If you are wanting to raise the young let them sit the eggs if not wait ten days and remove them. If you wait longer then the ten days the parents wil start working on producing what is called pigeon milk. its best to remove eggs prior to that point. I think more that the bird is less agreesive towards you now and it will bew fine. This will help show if ther really is a health problem Good luck.


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

So, if they start the breeding cycle back up then things are looking good for them? If they don't then there probably is a health problem. Is that what you are saying Re Lee?

Julie


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## Navigator (Jan 2, 2003)

Julie, is he eating good and his droppings solid ? How about his weight ? Is he lighter now then he was a few days ago ? It's not a good sign if he isn't active for a good period of the day. Sunlight is valuable to them but would not cause this behavior in just a few days. Vitamin deficiencies can lead to problems too. I add Cod Liver Oil to the feed once each week to try to maintain a good balance of vitamins to enhance the immune system.
Also, if they don't get on the ground and the area is cleaned of all droppings daily, there should be no real need to worm them. Especially if you use ACV weekly in the water to slightly alter the pH level in the digestive tract. Keep us posted.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

By disposeing of the eggs for now the cock bird wont be sitting the nest. And that way you will notice his activity better. A cock bird will generaly sit the nest say 10 am to for or five pm. This inactivity time he may be just being suttle. If all sighn are looking good I think it may just be the siiting of the dummy eggs. Wont hurt to try this. Sun light or artifical light helps set up the breeding cycle. as longer light is an indicater of warmer weather per say. Ten to twelve hours per day. The cod liver oil is an old remidy that has proven well over the years.You can get gel caps of it now and hand feed it to them if needed. fast and easy for a few birds. A little trick . After increased light for a week give the cock bird one capsule of vitimun E 200 unit ones aday for three days . Gives him a little energy and kicks in the breeding cycle with improved fertile eggs. As more topping occurs. Do you use a stanard pigeon grain or what


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Snowball is eating and his droppings are fine. His still weighs a little over 1 pound, so his weight has not changed. 

He doesn't spend a lot of time on the nest. I know he's supposed to be on the nest during the day but he is not. He goes on it a few times during the day, but I think Mabel(hen) prefers to be on it anyway. 

I gave them vitamins in their water yesterday. Tonight they'll have minerals in their water. I'm not sure if I can give them cod liver oil at the same time as the minerals so I will wait one more day before I give them that.

We are giving our pigeons - oats, wheat, millet, milo, flax, canary seed, thistle(?), rape seed and occasionally peas from a pigeon mix, and pellets. The pellets and peas are the last thing left. Oh, and of course safflower as a treat. 

My son is taking care of Mabel and Snowball with my supervision. This is his first real responsibility in life. He's doing a great job changing the cage everyday. Providing fresh water, grit and seed, giving them attention, weighing them, etc... 

Last night he heard they need more sunlight. Today I noticed they were actually getting some sunlight as the sun swept across their other bedroom window. Soon afterwards he came to the conclusion that it was time to rearrange his room. I was impressed when he measured everything out and started putting his plan to work. 

Tonight his room is REARRANGED! I'm so proud of him. Somehow he pulled it off even though I didn't think his room could fit any other way. 

Tomorrow Snowball and Mabel will have more sun. Yahoo! 

Julie


[This message has been edited by turkey (edited January 23, 2003).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good morning Julie,
So glad to hear Snowball is recovering nicely. Those little 'scares' certainly do put us back a few steps. You did a wonderful job.
And as for your Son, please give him a 'pat on the back' from me & would like to say to him "A job well done". Of course he has a great teacher. Once again, 'team work' to the rescue.
Please do keep us posted. 
A 'pigeon pat' goes out to all your fine feathered friends.
Cindy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

As pellets increase the size of the droppings more on a confined bird. And High protien. and oil of some of the grains. Then reduced qulity of some. If at all avalible a standard pigeon mix would do more good. INCLUDE the grit as pigeons need this to help digest the feed. Try about a third of a cup of feed orless per feeding not more then 2 times dayly this should be enough. Basicly what they can eat in ten minutes . And if you raise young add just a little more to off set the feeding. Sounds like things are ok.


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