# Newbie



## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Hi! My name is Samantha. Ever since I was little I have always loved pigeons. However, here in southeast VA I didn't think there was any way I could get into them.
Recently my family got into poultry, we have turkeys, chickens, ducks, the lot. One day I had gone with them to a local poultry swap to sell some of the chicks my sister had hatched. As we set up, I happened to look beside us and there they were. There was about 20 of them crowded into a medium dog crate. It was that day I broke down and finally bought myself a pigeon. I didn't want anything fancy, so I had grabbed the most "feral" looking pigeon there. His name is Frankie. I'm in the middle of building my own coop and loft for these guys, so he is currently in a large macaw cage. I've had him for about a week and a half before we go to another swap. There was an older man selling them off the tailgate of his truck. I ask for a female and he hands me a gorgeous black and white bird. I get home and start the introduction process. Now they are living happily together. I've found out Frankie is a homer and Maria is a registered Birmingham roller. It's so funny when she wants to "kiss" with him because she has to get up on her tip toes. I don't want to compete, yet, I just want to have some stock. 









Then the other day, I get in contact with a fellow pigeon lover who lives fairly close to me! I was so excited and he was so nice in teaching me and helping me out. He offered to give me a few free birds but I still haven't finished my coop so I had to practice my restraint  I did end up buying a beautiful pair from him though. They are both rollers and are young birds so I'm excited to learn. I have a soft spot for barred birds, the yellow is Sophia and the indigo splash(?) is Donnie.









Thanks for reading, and I am loving these birds and everyone has been nice and willing to help me in this hobby!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Pretty birds, congrats. I am sorta wondering about the guy at the swap, however...how did he have different breeds and was he just sellin 'em for anything ? Or was he particularly trying to sell to folks who were fanciers ?

Is the loft (pigeon folks call 'em 'lofts', not 'coops' ) under construction ? They ahve to be a bit different than a chicken coop, just to let you know. Do you have a design for one ?

That's great you found someone locally, too...nothing like having another Pigeon Person around to show you the ropes.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

He was selling them for anything, he tried to swap me 5 pigeons for my turkey. He doesn't have a band so I have no way to get in touch with any previous owner.
The birmingham hen does, I bought her from the other guy for $10 and I have her previous owners e-mail between us.

The loft I'm making now is fairly easy, I'm kind of cheating, lol. I used to breed and raise large breeds of python (burmese, african rock, etc) and I have custom cages for them. My biggest was in this "snake mansion" so I'm converting it into a loft with a flight pen attached. I just have to kick out the glass, put up screen and add some doors.
However my construction has been slowed today because of the tornado watch and lightning...


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Welcome Samantha. Those are some beautiful birds. Ask lots of questions and rely on your new found pigeon friend for advice when constructing your loft. Pigeons are wonderful and fascinating.

Jim


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

Samantha your pigeons are so lovely. Welcome to Pigeon Talk Forums.
Everything you'd like to know can be found here  
Rollers are cool, they're so mini and they roll. Sophia is very pretty I like her. Frankie is a big boy lol.
You should take pictures of your loft progress, that'd be nice its always interesting to see what people come up with 
Good luck with your new birdies


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

kool .welcome


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

kingdizon said:


> Samantha your pigeons are so lovely. Welcome to Pigeon Talk Forums.
> Everything you'd like to know can be found here
> Rollers are cool, they're so mini and they roll. Sophia is very pretty I like her. Frankie is a big boy lol.
> You should take pictures of your loft progress, that'd be nice its always interesting to see what people come up with
> Good luck with your new birdies


Thank you!
I can absolutely take pictures while I build the loft.
Frankie is huge compared to the rollers. It's so cute to watch Maria groom him. She's like a small ballerina sitting next to a NFL player.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Welcome to pigeons finally!..with all those birds Iam surprized you did not come across them before. I live in va too near richmond and williamsburg I keep white homers and starting on racing homers. If you ever want some white homing pigeons to fly Im sure we can work something out when you have your loft. I really love seeing them fly around the property, we are rual as it sound like you are too if you have turkeys and chickens.. your pair is very cute.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Oh yes, we're in cow country here. I guess I didn't really look that hard around here. I love these birds. They aren't obnoxious like parrots and not hard to come by. I also think they're prettier. Lol.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Welcome aboard PT. Enjoy our forum, and your piggies.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

FlaneryFlock said:


> Thank you!
> I can absolutely take pictures while I build the loft.
> Frankie is huge compared to the rollers. It's so cute to watch Maria groom him. She's like a small ballerina sitting next to a NFL player.


Lol I know what you mean. Itd be nice to see their babies  if youd let them have any. Lol dont get overrun with pigeons too fast


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Very pretty birds. And welcome to PT


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

Nice birds.Welcome to PT.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Oh. My. Goodness!! I woke up this morning, a typical morning, drooling on myself as I gave the piggies fresh water. Maria (the black and white hen) moved out of the nest box and LO AND BEHOLD I have an egg!! Oh my god, oh my god I am so excited! Should I be expecting the second egg anytime soon?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the second is usually 45 or so hours after the first one. so yes she will have a second probably, young hens for the first time they lay can only lay one , but pigeons usually lay only two most times.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

She' a 2011 bird on her band, my newest hen he said was about 6 months. But she hasn't laid yet.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

There should be an egg there tomorrow afternoon probably after 3 pm,


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

congrats!!...may be too soon to say but id baby and spoil and handfeed and handle at least one of them all the time. that way you can have one very tame "impress company" type of pigeon  congrats again!!


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Yay! Oh these will be spoiled birds. My company is already amused by my big homer boy. They say he is like a chihuahua the way he bites and growls.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Is it possible to tell what color possibilities I will get? The parents are the top pair.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you could repost the picture of the pair in the genetics thread and see if anyone may take a guess on what you may get, it may just be a wait and see thing if you are going to let them hatch them. the youngsters will need enough room when they are weaned so your loft will be needed at that point.


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

Thats wonderful news.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Thank you guys so much!


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## HeavyDlofts (May 23, 2012)

Congrats Samantha !!!


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Sorry about the mess.. I'm just too nervous to get in there and clean with an egg being there.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

It is fine to clean it now, they don't sit the eggs well untill after the second is layed.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jaye said:


> Pretty birds, congrats. I am sorta wondering about the guy at the swap, however...how did he have different breeds and was he just sellin 'em for anything ? Or was he particularly trying to sell to folks who were fanciers ?
> 
> Is the loft (pigeon folks call 'em 'lofts', not 'coops' ) under construction ? They ahve to be a bit different than a chicken coop, just to let you know. Do you have a design for one ?
> 
> That's great you found someone locally, too...nothing like having another Pigeon Person around to show you the ropes.


As far as I knew, pigeon folks are incorrect calling a structure built on the ground a "loft" A "coop" would be a more technically correct term. Just something to think about before correcting people for being correct.

I understood lofts were above buildings, in attic spaces or set high up off the ground.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> you could repost the picture of the pair in the genetics thread and see if anyone may take a guess on what you may get, it may just be a wait and see thing if you are going to let them hatch them. the youngsters will need enough room when they are weaned so your loft will be needed at that point.


Sprit, we would not be guessing, If we were to give ratios we would only give scientifically proven ones.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Op'er. does the cockbird in the first pic have blue or black flecks in its tail and flights, they will be small but they will be there, If you can supply that info I can give you the ratio of young you will get.

Its a simple pairing to work out as there are not too many factors at play


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

actually, I think I can see a fleck in its tail

This pair will produce ash red cocks and hens in equal amounts in both sexes aswell as blues in equal amounts in both sexes. 

so blue cocks 25% blue hens 25%
and red cocks 25% red hens 25%

Some will be pied, some will be spread but due to not knowing the parents I cannot give you the exact amount of spread birds you will get.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> actually, I think I can see a fleck in its tail
> 
> This pair will produce ash red cocks and hens in equal amounts in both sexes aswell as blues in equal amounts in both sexes.
> 
> ...


I contacted the man who's her previous owner, and on his website there are a lot of pied birds. I'm guessing she has a long line of pied in her.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Sprit, we would not be guessing, If we were to give ratios we would only give scientifically proven ones.


I can't even imagine why that is important enough for you to even say it, because no one gives a rats A**.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> As far as I knew, pigeon folks are incorrect calling a structure built on the ground a "loft" A "coop" would be a more technically correct term. Just something to think about before correcting people for being correct.
> 
> I understood lofts were above buildings, in attic spaces or set high up off the ground.


Semantics! We call them lofts here, meaning a home for pigeons. We also have lofts that are dwellings for humans! Over here, both uses are correct. Depending on species using them. "Coops" are for housing chickens is the most popular usage for that word over here. Doesn't make either incorrect.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pigeon LOFT is and has been a given name For many years. Now back when More COOPS were used for pigeons They called them a coop. Just as a chicken coop. Which Often is not set up as NICE as a pigeon LOFT.JUST as some people still call a pigeon a dove Now far as colors go. What is hidden sometimes steps forward. Breaking the IDEA that this color and that color will produce only this. As most all breeds Have many hidden colors Behind there self showing color. Until a hard color is set Surprises can and do happen. With out knowing the color back ground on a given bird It is not a sure picture Color can be put on any breed of pigeon. But color is just a MASK. Along with color IF the person is breeding for QUALITY that to has to be worked and reworked. Remember without the surprises We would still just have the ONE COLOR wich was a dirty blue bar. So Nothing is set in stone until it has been worked to a hard set then a surprise still shows up.A general idea on color Is all we have And MOST do not go deep into color As the shown or chosen desired color is what is worked on by many.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Sorry guys but I stick to the facts

loft 

/lôft/



Noun


A room or space *directly under the roof of a house or other building, which may be used for accommodations or storage*. 



Coop

coop (kp)
n.
1. An enclosure or cage, as for poultry or small animals

So when Jaye told the Op'er to call it a loft as that's what pigeon folks call them, That's fine but I am just pointing out to the Oper that their use of the word coop is technically correct. I never said using the term loft was incorrect. It seems however the definition would suggest it is.

Re Lee, I agree with you that many hidden colours can pop up, However, When giving predictions we can only work with what we see, It does not make the predictions wrong but if one understands genetics even slightly they will be aware recessive genes are always possible.

Spirit, Why is it important to say that - because its relative to the Opers question, You suggested we would be guessing what colours would be produced. To a point we are but we can also give some certainties. I am pretty sure the Oper gives a rats arse.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I have looked up the differnt terms On the word loft. Which means elevated More or less BUT the term pigeon loft has grown to its own meaning. You could call it a pigeon pen a pigeon coop. a pigeon house . But many use the name LOFT and the people keeping pigeons know what it means.. and yes going by what is seen you can expect this or that. But what i meant is we do get that other color every so often. And even each year. i knew a person back in the 1970s When Joe Quinns notbook became popular. One he decided to look into his hidden colors He found some that masked 5 differrent colors But by 3 years he destroyed a life time of work in his loft. He raised MODENAS. and had done so for many years and had some very top birds. Meaning sometimes it is nice to play with color But move slow and maintain quality. Even a good color person can spend years setting a hard color on one breed type. And working with several colors setting them is much more work. Now using set colors on expanded types The cross line use of knowledge benifits in what colors work well with each other to maintain need of use. I am glad the few that play hard to spread new colors to different breed lines do so. But they have to take the years to see the full results setting and redeveloping breed type. But without those people We woulds see less colors in different breeds.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree that "pigeon loft" is a well known term, I use it myself

As for colour, I also agree 100% that recessive genes or other colours can pop up, We cannot include these in predictions unless we know one of the parents was homozygous for that specific recessive gene, then we can include that outcome into the predictions.

I am working on putting spread and brown into my thief pouters, This year which is the third year into it the birds look very similar to the average birds in my loft, The challenge now is as you say, Years of selection to build quality birds that breed true. 

It's relatively easy to breed a bird back to standard but to get a good quality family going is the hard part IMO.

Spread and brown are quite easy to work with as I can put every young back to thief pouters without the requirement of breeding F1's to each other. I am up to BC3. Will add some pics when I get a chance.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree that "pigeon loft" is a well known term, I use it myself
> 
> As for colour, I also agree 100% that recessive genes or other colours can pop up, We cannot include these in predictions unless we know one of the parents was homozygous for that specific recessive gene, then we can include that outcome into the predictions.
> 
> ...


REMEMBER you can move color forward TWO times in one year by pairing the off spring at 6 months of age. this helps speed up the color Then use selection on desired type as color is getting set. That way you cut the five year idea down. I had a friend that YEARS back used a giant runt to improve his lahores. BLACK lahores. That idea helped make him a NPA master breeder as he really improved his lahores. And have known people That used gazzi modenas to improve there saddle fantails. when other people do the work it makes it easyer on the rest.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

re lee said:


> REMEMBER you can move color forward TWO times in one year by pairing the off spring at 6 months of age. this helps speed up the color Then use selection on desired type as color is getting set. That way you cut the five year idea down. I had a friend that YEARS back used a giant runt to improve his lahores. BLACK lahores. That idea helped make him a NPA master breeder as he really improved his lahores. And have known people That used gazzi modenas to improve there saddle fantails. when other people do the work it makes it easyer on the rest.


Yeah, I managed to move forward two crosses this year, Got a nice looking black in the nest, Extremely cobby looking head which is good for a Valencian thief pouter. I used Modena as I wanted to get the cobbyness back in the breed as well as maintain the upright stance that the Valencian is known for.

Funnily enough, with regards to your last sentence. A guy here in CHCH has already put black and brown in his thiefs and I liked the look of them and wanted to do it myself for fun, atleast this way we can show them against each other and then swap to cross blood at the end.
I am crossing a really nice blue bar thief with a nice reduced ASR as we speak to also put reduced in the thiefs, I have some nice almond thiefs which I plan to incorporate, spread, blue, brown and ash red into and then have reduced as a side project. I would also like dilute and recessive red to throw in the almond project but I do not think I have the space unless I give up racing. Not gonna happen.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Sorry guys but I stick to the facts
> 
> loft
> 
> ...


You have got to be kidding, right?
I interpret the difference as......Loft- A (other) building with a roof with a cage (flight cage or aviary) attached. 
Coop- Free standing cage with some form of shelter 'inside'.
Just my 2 cents......But does is really matter?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> You have got to be kidding, right?
> I interpret the difference as......Loft- A (other) building with a roof with a cage (flight cage or aviary) attached.
> Coop- Free standing cage with some form of shelter 'inside'.
> Just my 2 cents......But does is really matter?


no it does not matter, but some how it was forced on people, time wasted reading it that you will never get back.. lol..


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> no it does not matter, but some how it was forced on people, time wasted reading it that you will never get back.. lol..


Don't read it then. Simple.

Msfreebird, No it does not matter, Hence my confusion with the Original post from Jaye, which was correcting someone for actually being correct by the dictionary definition, I believe we follow dictionary definitions in the western world as being fact??? Interpretations are completely different and you are entitled to interpret something how you like, It does not however make it correct.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

I didn't mean to cause an argument here.. Sorry guys..

As for an update.. My hen has 2 eggs now and they're both being textbook parents.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Don't read it then. Simple.
> 
> Msfreebird, No it does not matter, Hence my confusion with the Original post from Jaye, which was correcting someone for actually being correct by the dictionary definition, I believe we follow dictionary definitions in the western world as being fact??? Interpretations are completely different and you are entitled to interpret something how you like, It does not however make it correct.


Grrrrr.....That's why us 'cougars' are single.....LOL 


FlaneryFlock said:


> I didn't mean to cause an argument here.. Sorry guys..
> 
> As for an update.. My hen has 2 eggs now and they're both being textbook parents.


No problem here! That's great to hear  Keep us posted.


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

From snake cage to almost done loft.

As snake cage:









Taken glass out:









Added screen and door with supports:


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

Inside the door:









Making the stand, thankfully I have a handy husband  :


















Still not done, weather is looking a little nasty. I'm going to add a large flight pen around this cage.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Is that an I love PETA sticker on the front.

Wonder what they would think about their sticker being on a pigeon cage. FYI - I think the cage is great and think the sticker is funny, I am not trying to start a PETA conversation here, There are threads for that but thought it was a little Ironic and worth a mention


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

I found the sticker ironic to be on a snake cage, lol. Not a supporter.

Anyway, I love this cage.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

congrats on your awesome looking birds ,and good luck with them !


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## FlaneryFlock (Apr 19, 2013)

I have another question.. Since the squabs are going to be homer x birmingham roller crosses, what size band would they need? Or since they are "mutts" would it be a waste of time to band them?


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

Looks like a good start.


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