# How Long Do Antibiotics Take To Work?



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

How long do you wait to see if an antibiotic is working (in this case Trimethsulfa) before switching to a different drug?

Last Wednesday, Piper seemed down and unwilling to eat. Closer inspection revealed a canker lesion on the tip of his tongue so all the birds were treated with a canker med (new stuff - RonSec). Piper was set up on a heating pad in the house and fed thawed peas and corn (with a pinch of probiotics) three times a day. He goes out to the coop for a few hours in the afternoon to relieve KD on the nest (dummy eggs), with a heated disk under the nest keeps him warm there.

There had been no change by Monday, so off to the vet who said the mouth looked okay. There were large numbers of bacteria found in the crop fluid, so started antibiotics - Trimethsulfa with Nystatin to prevent a fungus problem from developing. Today is day three and he seems only marginally better (his weight has gone up from the low of 304 gms to 325 gms; normal for him is 360 gms.).

He dozes a lot, but seems comfortable on the supplemental heat. He acts as if the front half of his mouth is still sore - if the food isn't dropped 'way back, he's quick to fling it out with a shake of his head. Last night his poops looked pretty good, but this afternoon they are back to bright green and loose.  What would you do if this was your bird?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi TerriB,

I'm sorry to hear about Piper.

I'm not the expert on antibiotics, but I can help a little.

Do you think Piper might be stressed from moving back to sit on the dummy eggs? Is he used to eating thawed peas and corn, or just regular pigeon seed?

I'm just wondering if he is stressed from the change in diet and being moved back into the coop for "egg duty."

I would keep him inside 24/7 for the time being, give him garlic to kill fungus, & bacteria and build up immunties. A drop of ACV in the water, also to kill bad bacteria, and a drop of colloidal silver down the throat for infection.

If he is on a "pro-biotic" friendly drug, I would give him one heaping serving of it via capsule or water, and give him small pigeon seeds, which are more easily digestible (1 tablespoon twice a day, and let him drink well)


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

I've been using metronidazole for close to 11 years now. That's how I treat all cases of canker. I've had excellent results and see no reason to change. All birds with canker were at least 6 months old. I also put a few drops of ACV, (bought at health food store for human consumption - with mother), to the birds' water bottle. Water bottle size is about 2-3 ounces. I might also give a booster shoot of vitamins/minerals as I explained in the thread, "Regarding chloramphenicol". The booster shoot is administered orally. And might be repeated for the seven days I orally give metronidazole.

My 2 cents.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The antibiotics works right away, depending on the severity of the infections it can takes days until you see an improvemet though.
If your baby has a large load of bacteria, I would continue the same antibiotic for at least another couple of days.
If there is still no improvement, I would take him to the vet for a sensitivity culture.

Reti


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Forgot to say in my previous post...

I usually see some sort of improvement within the next 12- 24 hours after the first dose. The improvement can be very small, but if you pay close attention, you should be able to notice it.

The way I treat canker is by mixing 25mg of metronidazole with a few cc of water in a tea spoon. I then use a syringe to suck this mixture. I use one hand to hold the head and open the beak. And the other to orally inject the mixture. I insert the syringe just far enough after the opening for the trachea. 

One more thing, treatment is 25mg/day for seven days, every 24hrs. Except I give the second injection 12 hours after the first one. But follow the every 24hrs after that. I.E., first injection at 9:00PM, second oral injection the morning after at 9:00AM, third injection the following day at 9:00PM (IOW, it has been 36 hours between injection 2 and 3). The other four oral injections are at 9:00PM over the next 4 days.

P.S. Regarding Baytril on the bird with salmonellosis, it was exactly 12 hours between first dose administered and the bird "came to life". Unfortunately I forgot about the vitamins/minerals and the bird went back downhill. It was 41 hours between first dose and the moment you can say it beat it. The intestines are not inflamed anymore since the bird has ended it's excessive thirst.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for all the responses - I was really feeling panicked and appreciate the feedback.

Treesa, nest duty was due to concern about splitting up the pair. I can close off their nest box and roost and bring KD (& nest?) inside so she won't have to set the eggs and also defend their territory alone. Good observation about the diet change - their usual diet is regular pigeon seed. Initially I dribbled a few hemp seeds into his mouth, but it seemed to go down the wrong pipe - he coughed and fought. The thawed peas are large enough not to go down his esophagus. I'll add garlic, ACV, and more probiotic tomorrow and try again with small seed, maybe soak them so they're softer for him. There's a store nearby that should have colloidal silver.

NumberNine, thanks for all the information. I'll check that other thread, also. It seems like canker reoccurs after a few months, even though the birds don't leave the flight pen, so I thought maybe it was a resistant strain.

Reti, good to know, thanks. I finally got a message through to the veterinarian who said with Trimeth there should be a response within 3-5 days. So if no improvement by tomorrow evening, switch to Baytril.

Sometimes, the right side of his throat pulses with his breathing - is that common in a stressed bird?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi TerriB,

Just a hit and run. Regarding treating for canker every few months. You could 
try treating between cycle w/some of the products that are natural to try and 
limit how often you need to use the meds. Of course the Braggs ACV treatment
is beneficial. Here are some other links for you to check out:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/sinornis/Citromed.cfm

This company also puts out Berrimax which is basically a goldenseal product.

http://www.everythingforpets.com/gem_trikanox.pet/use.id.5.item_id.413.dept.134

This is another goldenseal product.

http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=24

Scroll down to Vanhee Tricocci 16000, it is actually more than just coccidiosis
when you look @ ingredients. It works very well w/pijies, from my experience.

http://www.everythingforpets.com/mi...xtract_gse_.pet/use.id.5.item_id.2246.dept.1/

And another product creating acidic environment. Don't think it matters who the manufacturer is and I've seen the GSE on pij supply links from other manufacturers.

I've also used the Ron-Sec w/good results but don't have time right now to 
tell you the whole regimen. Later...

fp


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Regarding Metronidazole, DO NOT use this drug if you plan to administer it more than once to the same bird. The bird will develop a resistance to the drug and it won't work anymore.

In my case, I rescue birds, treat them and release them. So there is no possibility that I will be using Metronidazole twice on the same bird.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

NinetyNine,

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out. It's so frustrating. I didn't expect that keeping six pet pigeons healthy wouldn't be so difficult!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Update*

There has been no improvement, so I just injected Piper with 0.1 cc Baytril. He still won't eat, but lets me put the small seeds in his mouth for him to swallow. His breathing continues to be heavy - it looks exhausting.


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Why not feed the birds some baby hand-feeding formula? It is also used as supplement for adult birds. Just a suggestion.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for the suggestion. I did try baby formula early on, figuring it would be easy to digest. He vehemently resisted and most of it ended up outside the bird, where it is harder to digest.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi TerriB,

Actually, I had posted those links for you earlier when I was in a rush. LOL, I was trying to remember a link where TAWhatley said--"Double whammie time"
and pull it up through the search engine, guess what, you had started that thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9394&highlight=double

I think the concept is not to rely on one canker medication, but to rotate. You don't want to rely on just one. Get a few different ones and keep track of which ones you are using.

I frequently use Kaytee exact with adults if they are sick and crop feed, although if there are caseous deposits in the throat, it can be tricky as you don't want to disturb that area. In such a case, soaked and drained kibble or "pigeon balls" might be better. I've even made the "pigeon balls" with the 
Kaytee exact w/medicated water.

Hope your bird is doing better, keep us posted.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi again TerriB,

Finally got the link to a place in New Haven called European Pigeon Products or Pigeon Products.com from Gem itself. Here's the link:

http://www.pigeonproducts.com/catalog/index.php

Go to Health Products section and scroll down to Gem.

The product is Trikanox and has Goldenseal which is an herbal treatment for canker. You could use this in between the need for drug meds to limit reliance on them. I posted some links on Goldenseal in a thread that describes its qualities and actions a couple of months back. Anyway, it's probably the key ingredient for the Berimax that is a companion product for the Citromed.
Hope this is of some use for you.

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thank you so much, fp!

Yes, this has been an ongoing and EXTREMELY frustrating problem! Since these birds are adults, don't raise babies, never leave their flight pen and aren't exposed to other pigeons, I didn't expect canker to reoccur. I treat only if a crop swab showed lots of trich or if Piper has yellow growth on his tongue tip. Recently, I've noticed that both Old German Owl males also seem to get canker in their chins (salivary glands?) - slightly swollen and tender, yellow that gets darker after treatment. Meds in the water seem to hit that better than the tablets.

I log meds in a notebook and rotate through carnidazole (Spartrix), metronidazole (Flagyl), ronidazole (Ridzol - both tablets and powder), and
most recently a combination of ronidazole and secnidazole (RonSec). The 'Double whammie' treatment in February prevented reoccurance for
six months. I wonder if the stress of molting triggered the latest outbreak? I will definitely check out these other options. Thanks!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi TerriB,

I've used the Ron-Sec and had good results w/it. I did use the powdered Metronidazole on food simultaneously. You can also purchase the Secnidazole separately and if I remember correctly, it treats coccidiosis also. 

Here's a link to Seigal's for canker treatments:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-canker.html

Unfortunately, you'd need to have magnification to read what is in each of the 
products, but you could call. RELofts posted that link recently for info on canker treatment.

Sounds like a tough one, and aside from having a variety on hand, and you sound like you're doing a great job of logging, the best bet will be the non-med alternatives. The best of luck to you w/this situation.

fp


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Reoccurring Canker*

Birds need not come in contact with ferals or pets to get canker. They have it in the bodies and stress can bring an outbreak. A breeding season or moult. When you mentioned peas I was thinking the froozen dept. they have petite peas which are smaller and sweeter. Are you using meds in the water or putting meds straight into the crop?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi TerriB,

Canker is the most common pigeon disease and stress of molting definitely can bring on an outbreak. In fact, controlling stress is mentioned in how to prevent Canker, as well as regular preventive treatment.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Some Improvement!*

This morning Piper is more alert, finally taking an interest in his surroundings, doing some grooming, and complaining loudly when held for the Baytril injection. What a relief! Much better than the lump of feathers he has been for the past few days. He did try to pick up a small seed, but it stuck to the roof of his mouth and he needed help removing it. (Could his salivary glands be damaged by canker?) I went back to thawed peas/corn since they are moist. This evening when I have more time, I'll try soaking small seeds to see if he can manage that. I had planned on using Ivomec last week to clear out any parasites now that it's cooler, but that will have to wait.

pdcd,
It's amazing with all the meds that any trich are still alive - didn't realize they were so pervasive. After one late night run to the store, I now have a bag of petite peas specifically labeled "For Pigeons", so I'll have some on hand. Definitely a better fit for his little throat. When using Metronidazole, he always throws up the pills, so I dose the solution individually down their throat. With Ronidazole, the results are better with powder in their water - the tablets don't seem to get enough meds to the chin and tongue tip.

Treesa,
Looking for stress factors, I noticed that many racing lofts are set up so there is minimal human interaction (feed and water from outside the bird area). Usually, I hold all the birds at least once a day to give them treat seed and a quick check up. Should I not be handling the birds during molting? Would it be helpful to treat for canker next June or July, just to knock the number of organisms down before they molt?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi TerriB

Glad to hear Piper is starting to be his "ole" self.

If your birds are used to your daily interaction with them, which I think is excellent, that should not be a source of stress.

I think you are very conscientious pigeon fancier and I don't see why the birds are getting Canker. Your coop is no doubt the cleanest, and your pigeons aren't around standing water, or rain on the floor, and I'm sure your prevention is great. But if you ever want to go over your prevention or anything let me know.

I was just going over the natural products ( Trikanox) that fp had posted and I think they might be a great as an "in between treatment." I think I'm going to get some of that myself, in case.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> ...if you ever want to go over your prevention or anything let me know...


Thanks, I would really appreciate that! I reread your post at 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5760 and I'm good on most of the items. In addition to the other once-a-week water treatments, I've recently started using Copper sulfate solution (supposed to prevent canker), and Salm-A-Bac (twice a week - to protect against salmonella).

These are the weak areas:

1) Brewer's Yeast - I tried Brewers Yeast on their feed several different 
times, but they acted like it was too bitter. None of the birds ate any seed 
all day! Is there another alternative?

2) Preventive vaccinations - When I asked my avian vet for PMV and 
Paratyphoid vaccines, he consulted with a nearby vet who treats pigeons, who said not necessary here. I've also spoken with several local breeders who said only necessary if showing or racing.

3) Preventive medication - I bought separate meds for canker, coccidiosis, 
and worms. Two or three kinds of each, so I could rotate. I don't have a 
routine, just been treating when there seems to be a problem. The 
regimes I've seen are generally for racing or breeding. What about pet 
birds? With three bonded pairs and one coop/flight pen, the pairs stay 
together all year, with all eggs swapped for wooden ones. You mention 
using Globals Multi-Mix or Dacoxine 4 in 1 seasonally. Please excuse 
my ignorance, but would you mind providing a little more detail - what 
constitutes a season? Eventually, I'll have a better feel, but for now a specific schedule would be helpful!  Thanks!


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Terri*

How is the weather? Changing or the same? Day temp. and night temp.? With my mouth canker I use a Q-tip with acv on it to remove canker blocking air ways. With another Q-tip dip in canker mix and water. I bath these areas. I repaet as many times as canker grows back. So bird can breath. This tpye of canker takes longer to heal. Closer to 10 days of meds and treatments.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi TerriB
> 
> I was just going over the natural products ( Trikanox) that fp had posted and I think they might be a great as an "in between treatment." I think I'm going to get some of that myself, in case.


Hi TerriB and TreesGray,

Just saw the product in the product listing section @ PigeonNetwork, thought you'd be interested to know that!

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/index.cfm

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Cyanotic blue toe nails and beak!!!*

I wasn't sure this morning but this afternoon there is a definite blue tinge to Piper's (usually pink) toe nails and beak. So damage to the heart/lungs? What additional meds/supportive care would help?

upcd,
We're into our normal fall weather. Day time high around 70, down to 47 at night. I've been keeping Piper inside except for short afternoon sunbaths. He is reluctant to fly, so the flight pen (Walter) is too dangerous. His chin was pale yellow from canker, turned dark yellow after a few days, and is now looking fairly normal, so 10 days from when I started the RonSec. Do you mean that for mouth canker you treat only the mouth, or do you use the Q-tip in addition to the systemic treatment? The growth on his tongue tip (the size of a millet seed) is the only mouth growth I've seen on any of the birds.

fp,
Thanks for the info regarding Trikanox. That product definitely seems worth checking out!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Terri, do you have an Doxycycline that you could give the bird? This respiratory problem might be completely unrelated to canker. Sometimes, they get pansystemic disease and it can be a combination of a lot of different things.

The thing that it sounds like the most, though, is some form of pneumonia and that has so many different causes that it's pretty hard to diagnose the cause without a lot of expensive or complicated testing. There's no way to know which antibiotic would be best.

Some of the worst things that I read about said that a bird can respond to agressive antibiotic treatment only to die months later from chronic fungal infection of the lungs.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks fp for the Trikanox site.


Hi TerriB,

I'm sorry to hear about the other new symptom Piper is showing.

..and thank you for reviewing the thread. I'm sorry, I should have made it more clear that birds that don't have contact with other pigeons don't need the vaccinations. Preventative medications are also not necessary as you have treatments already for your birds. 

I think you are doing more for your birds then most people do, and I'm sure the prevention nutrition is top notch. In your desire to keep your pigeons disease free, do you think perhaps maybe the medications may be a burden on their immune system? While they do stop disease, they can also disable our birds natural immunities, and their abilities to fight off disease and/or infections. 

Using natural preventive products, not only enables the immune system to destroy bacteria that come along, but also has a positive effect on creating healthy new cells, increase energy, and overall health. 

Incorporating the natural products like Trikanox and the Oregano, might be a positive solution. I myself am more inclined to continue on my search for more natural remedies for my birds also. I am considering not using any preventive medication products at all anymore and going all natural with my birds. It took a leap of faith, but seeing results is believing.

I treated a hen that had coccidiosis from stress of molt and egg bound, (none of my other birds have ever gotten that).She had very wet poops, that soaked the newspapers, and loss of appetite and sat very still and fluffed up, with eyes closed. I isolated her, got her on the colloidal silver, garlic capsule and heavy doses of probiotics, I even gave her a full capsule of it. She is four years old. I hand fed her and in 5 days she was back to normal.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi all,

TerriB, I am sorry to hear about the new symptom that Piper is displaying. Just at a loss for words right now.

Treesa, how much Colloidal Silver did you administer for you isolated bird?
I am going to get some of that w/next check. Don't know if Whole Foods will have the Sovereign Silver, but I know they do carry the product.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

fp,

You can administer 4 drops to start in the birds bowl of water, or 2 drops to the formula, or 1 drops down the throat once a day. You can increase the dose if there it is a heavy case of cocci.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd also consider putting the bird under a heat lamp, arranged so that he can get out from under it but also so that he can get as close as 6 inches to the bulb if he wants. Sometimes, that really helps because they concentrate on fighting the illness without worrying about generating heat.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> I'd also consider putting the bird under a heat lamp, arranged so that he can get out from under it but also so that he can get as close as 6 inches to the bulb if he wants. Sometimes, that really helps because they concentrate on fighting the illness without worrying about generating heat.
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey,

Good supportive measure, as we don't want the bird expending energy on anything other then healing. All nutrition should be directed to that goal, every other issue the bird is dealing with, we can supply, including air quality, heat.

Supplying heat is one issue we don't have to worry about in Florida this time of year.LOL


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I had so many (way back before I got into medications) that found their way back to health by standing under a heat lamp about 6 to 8 inches for 24 hours a day over a one to three months. Skippy had to get down off the perch to eat or drink but she didn't spend very doggone long off of it at a time. If you turned the light out, she was puffed back up within 20 minutes. Most of time when you touched her, she felt hot to the touch. And weather certainly wasn't a problem because this was in the kitchen.

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Getting better all the time...*

Pidgey, thanks for the reminder. If there's one thing I've learned from this site, it's to always provide supplemental heat!  Don't laugh, but I have been tucking a little fleece blanket over Piper while he lays on the heating pad. He has room to move off, which he finally did tonight (yeah!!)! He is making steady progress. This afternoon, he was able to pick up some hemp seed but I still had to hand feed peas.

While reading some of the links referenced earlier, I realized I had been so focused on what I thought was Piper's starvation-induced green poop, I hadn't registered that several other birds also had the green slimey poop and other symptoms of coccidiosis. I treated all with Appertex last night and noticed an improvement already this morning.

Treesa, you wrote, "..medications may be a burden on their immune 
system...While they do stop disease, they can also disable our birds natural 
immunities..." This really makes sense - I have seen that some meds stress the birds and want to minimize this. There are good links in this thread that I will follow so I can get them built up. You mentioned colloidal silver - is there a link you can recommend for additional reading?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

TerriB,

I'll never laugh about "tucking in" a pigeon. I've carried a few to work and kept them on my desk that way, in a little box. I have gotten a few raised eyebrows and a very few have mentioned "raspberry sauce" but they were shortly escorted to the door. Under duress.

Anyhow, can you provide more detail on the breathing issue? Dyspnea is not a direct result of coccidiosis. Do you have a stethoscope that you can listen to his chest and neck with? Is his breathing coming easier?

If they're not eating, they'll almost always drop a little blob of green bile with the urates and urine. Coccidiosis isn't the only cause of that, either. Only in one case did I have one bird seem to give true coccidiosis to another and that was Winter giving it to Patches when she had that oviduct problem.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi TerriB,

Here is the website to the colloidal silver:

www.sovereignsilver.info


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Treesa, thanks for the link. This is a new area for me, so I appreciate the info.

Pidgey, thanks for the information regarding coccidiosis. So maybe there's something else going on. Piper's breathing is improving...only noticeable now just after being fed. When he stands sideways, his lower rear feathers move in and out (more than normal) with every breath. It was never very audible, more visual, like his throat skin would suck in and out for a bit.

The beginning of the month, Piper was unusually winded (opened mouth, audible panting) after a short flight (18'). Since Walter was also 'rattling', a pigeon breeder at the feed store suggested Aureomycin & Tylan for 8 days for all birds (in the water - pulled all calcium). Walter's breathing is good now, but we are also having warm, dry days for a change. It really seems there is something going on with Piper's respiratory system to account for the blue tinge to his pink toe nails and beak (this has improved a bit). The insides of Walter's mouth sometimes is darker when he is having a respiratory problem. Is Doxycycline better for respiratory problems? To rule out Aspergillosis, the vet prescribed 2 weeks of Itraconazole, 5 mg twice a day.

When Piper is hand fed, the peas drop down his throat fine, but unless the small seeds are oiled, they sometimes stick to the roof of his mouth and he gets frantic till they dislodge. Is this normal for hand fed birds?


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

In another thread, they mentioned that on sick pigeons, their forehead feathers rise up. Grace's feathers were like that before she received the Appertex, but now they are fine. She's my barometer on that since her feathers are sleeker, where the other birds are all 'fluffy' types.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Greetings*

Terri-Do your regular meds of canker. Then Use Q-tip with ACV to bath lensions and meds and water on another Q-tip if you need to very carefully remove canker blocking breathing areas.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

TerriB,

Doxycycline is the drug of choice against chlamydiosis. It's in the Tetracycline family. It's one you definitely need to pull the grit with. The causes of pneumonia and tracheitis are quite varied and if one's not working, then sometimes shifting to another does some good when you're flying blind.

That your vet would prescribe Itraconazole is fairly significant--that's not normal. Aspergillus is a very common fungus that's actually quite prevalent but birds don't usually succumb to it without having gotten either a very high dose or immunocompromised.

Once a colony of the stuff has gotten encapsulated in the body in the pulmonary system or in an organ, it's often necessary to surgically remove it, regardless of the use of anti-fungals like Itraconazole. This is because the aflatoxins thrown off by Aspergillus species are some of the most mutagenic compounds out there.

Send me your email address and I'll post you a few pages about Aspergillosis. By the way, the use of antibiotics, particularly Tetracyclines, predispose a bird to the risk of infection by Aspergillus.

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

The vet prescribed Itraconazole more to rule out fungus since antibiotics 
hadn't cleared up Walter's respiratory condition. I mentioned to him that heavy breeds like Walter are frequently kept in deep bedding, where fungus is more of a problem. Not sure what worked but Walter is now looking and sounding great and molting up a storm!

Piper is still on the heating pad sometimes but is looking less fragile (about 60 gms below normal) and his gastrointestinal system is improving. Poops look normal (yeah!!) but he still needs to be handfed small seeds. His mouth doesn't feel as dry, which could be good normal mucosa or the new wrinkle - slight clear nasal drainage. He was on Aureomycin and Tylan just a few weeks ago and is still on Baytril for two more days. What would you suggest?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi TerriB

I'm glad to hear Piper is feeling better, I know he is getting alot of around the clock care & attention from you. 

I had an old thin wool blanket I cut into small bird size blankets to put on the birds when they are sick. They are not heavy at all, but do keep the heat in. They work great on youngsters also.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, believe me, I noted your use of "rule-out" the first time. Radiology is helpful when you're trying to rule out Aspergillosis. I read a case where a lesion had formed in the syrinx and narrowed the passage down to what was described as a 20 gauge needle. They tried to remove the blockage and were unsuccessful because it was too involved. The surgery became the necropsy, I believe.

If it would have been me, I would have bored the thing out, installed a breathing tube through it and sent the patient home with the directive to get his/her affairs in order with some kind of supportive medications to try and prolong that as long as possible. Such lesions often turn cancerous in time and it's just not pretty.

Now, we want that this is NOT what you're looking at. Without (expensive) tests, it's just impossible to say but I'd ask what tests and their cost that the vet could perform for chlamydiosis/psittacosis/ornithosis (depending on which name you go by). Unfortunately, testing for that is not 100% accurate but a simple impression of the conjunctiva stained with Diff-Quick may turn up something.

I can send you all the pages on Chlamydiosis, Aspergillosis, a formulary, a section on antifungal therapy and whatever else I deem may be useful to you. As drugs go, the antifungals need to be treated with respect. 

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Sad News*

Piper died. ( The respiratory inflammation took over quickly. The vet will do an autopsy this afternoon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

TerriB,

I hate to say it but I knew when I saw that this thread had been updated that that was the case. I'm so sorry. Respiratory problems in birds are so much more serious than they are in us. If you want, I can still send you all that stuff.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

TerriB - I am so sorry. maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TerriB,

I'm so sorry to hear about Piper.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, Terry, I am so sorry.


Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ohhhhh Terri .. I am so very sorry for the loss of your beloved Piper. Words are inadequate.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi TerriB, I am so very sorry to hear about Piper.

fp


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Terri, what a heartbreak....I'm so sorry.

Linda


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thank you all. It is very comforting to know you understand. I did let Piper's mate, KD, see him for whatever closure that might provide.

I asked to be present at the autopsy. I got to see the insides of a very healthy pigeon. Liver - nice sharp edges, airsacs clear and unremarkable. Every part of him looked textbook normal: heart, lungs, spleen, intestines, gizzard, crop, etc.. The vet's speculation is that it was neurological, possibly viral.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That sounds, somehow, even worse. Are your pigeons up-to-date on PMV vaccinations?

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

They haven't been vaccinated since I've had them. My vet checked with a nearby vet who works with a flock of pigeons and was advised that neither PMV nor pox vaccines would be necessary since I don't show or race the birds.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I was thinking about Piper in my sleep and somewhere in the wee hours the question came to me that if there was nothing mechanically wrong and the bird was seeming to breathe harder and deeper, then how could he become cyanotic earlier if the pathology was neurological? In the absence of obstruction or visible lung disease, would it indicate that something was wrong with the oxygen transport system like anemia or something like that?

In AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, p. 399, it says that anemias can be common in birds because their red blood cells have a pretty short life span (month to a month and a half). So, when they get chronically sick from germs, toxins or malnutrition, it can cause anemia. Sometimes they can get it from viruses, too, but that's pretty rare. Weakness is the most common symptom and they can get to the point of being almost catatonic. You can also watch for them breathing too fast (normal is about 30 breaths per minute when resting) and check to see if their heartbeat is too fast. You can also check the membranes inside the beak, around the eyes and the vent to see if it's pale. Otherwise, you'd have to have a lab test done.

The fact that you had a possibly concurrent case (fortunately of a lesser severity) with Walter removes some of the possibilities. That's a question for the vet.

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*What About KD?*

Thanks, Pidgey, anemia is definitely worth checking - if another bird shows any similar symptoms, I'll request PCV. Thanks for leaving some of your spare brain cell working on this mystery.

Last night I cleaned out the room and equipment, then this morning brought in KD, Piper's mate, to isolate and keep an eye on her. I blocked off their perch/roost and nest box, so the other birds can't land there. Now I wonder if any of this is worthwhile, since the other two pair would have been already exposed. She seems distressed by not being in her normal home, but is otherwise acting normally. Does she need to be isolated in the absence of any symptoms, and if so, for how long?


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*sorry*

About Piper I know you did everything you could. I hope things go well with the others.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Lessons Learned*

Just wanted to post a comment about something I noticed in Piper's autopsy that has been fermenting at the back of my brain. Although the gizzard contents were normal (paste of small seeds and dissolved pellets), there was about half a tablespoon of peas in his crop. To speed up feeding, I had started giving him maybe half a teaspoon of peas at a time (along with small seed and pellets). It appears that the peas weren't moving out of the crop like the smaller stuff was. Considering his other neurological symptoms (coordination problems with flying, walking, and eating), if I had to do it over again I would stay with the more time consuming small seeds until he could pick up the larger peas on his own.


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