# Weak, underweight juvenile street pigeon



## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

I think I know the some of the procedures to do in this case, but want to run it by others, and need advice on diagnosis. 

Found lethargic, weak juvenile street pigeon. Approached from rear, thought he was dead. Humped back. He moved about two feet before I scooped him up. Very light in weight, no resistance. Offered him some cracked seed, he tried to pick up a couple of seeds, but probably dropped them. Kept him warm against my chest, in cupped hand. Offered him some room temperature water, he eagerly drank a bit, a couple of minutes he regurgitated some of the water, and then I felt him pass some liquid (stained my shirt with a smudge of white urates and some green).

A bit of a scab on the back with a few missing down feathers, probably from being pecked. No other visible injuries. Some white on nares, but totally gray eyes. Small. Appears to be juvenile. Gave him 2 cc's or ml's of Belgian pigeon product _Versele-Laga Colombine Colombosal_ (a sort of vitamin pep-up for racing birds, no vitamin A or D3 in it. If I recall correctly, one ml per day is enough for one bird). Figured if he passed most of it straight through, some might be absorbed. Recall where TreesGray(?) once said vitamins seemed as important to the bird as the antibiotics. She or whoever it was said that when she gave some birds antibiotics and vitamins they recovered, whereas once she gave antibiotics but forgot the vitamins and the birds didn't make it. When my rescued and hand-raised male Wieteke went through PMV and coccidiosis, I used the same dose of _Colombosal_ on a daily basis until he recovered. 

Pigeon is on heating pad. Humped back, seems to have abdominal pain. Wife holding him. He started breathing faster at one point, told her he was probably too warm. Gave him 2 cc's international rehydrating solution from sticky post list (pinch salt + pinch sugar dissolved in cup of warm water.

Weight 235 grams (8 and 1/4 ounces). Should be 300 to 320 grams (10 an 1/2 to 12 ounces) as local adult. Once watched a 400-gram pigeon get run over by a car. He is 75% to 80% of normal weight. Daily temperatures have been 45?F at night to 60?F in the day, with rain. Lot of local food available is white bread, from homeless people. 

I suspect starvation because of abdominal parasites, since he is underweight, weak, can move legs and wings, lets head hang down, has humped back, eyes appear bright enough and he blinks, mouth and throat look okay, no visible canker, and especially because he was thirsty and his initial gulps of water passed right through him.

Wife has him cupped in her hand, on heating pad on her lap. His head is resting on towel. Seems relaxed, but Hilde thinks he has occasional spasms in bowels. He wags his tail up and down, as if cramping. 

On hand I have 
- ACV
- probiotic powder (freeze-dried)
- garlic oil 
- Cotrim/bactrim antibiotic
- _Ciprobay_/ciprofloxin antibiotic
- _Bach's Rescue Drops_ 
- a cold medicine (with peppermint oil in it)
- Roehnfried _Anti-Worm_ (worming powder to mix in feed for five days to prevent hairworm and roundworm infestation), 
- Roehnfried _Blue Tincture for Fowls_ (for 2-3x weekly in drinking water to render many pathogens harmless and prevent infectious diseases such as diptheria, coccidiosis, diarrhea, colds, trichomoniasis and oral fungus infection) 
- eggfood for breeding pigeons and young birds (looks like cracker crumbs) to make hand-feeding paste with, 
- millet, seed, etc
- and probably some other stuff. 

No vets available (weekend). No feces to show vet yet. He's passed a bit of clear liquid a couple of times. 

Thanks, Larry


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Larry,

Sorry no advice as not experiencied but just wanted to wish you luck with this little one - he looks very, very weak - fingers crossed you can pull him through. 

Er - you look a nice person ( if that is you in the pics) 

Tania xx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Larry,

He looks in a bad way but it is best not to try to move too fast...let him get warmed through, then rehydrate, but wait a few hours before offering food. Vitamins are good.

The rehydration soltion is half a tablespoon of glucose and half a teaspoon of salt to a pint of warm water. A pinch of each could mean too much salt.

That hanging of the head is very abnormal. Despite youth could this be an egg bound hen?

Cynthia


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Egg bindng?*

Thnks Cyro for quick response.

Eye pupils are gray, not even golden yellow, or red surrounding yellow. Wouldn't this mean bird is too young for eggs? Our four-month-olds living now on the street have some red surrounding yellow. Sorry, just don't know enough about this.

Back to your point:

- Pigeon wants to stay warm.
- Pigeon half-standing (can't see legs), with wings, head and tail touching ground. Looks like an upside-down bowl. 
- Was pumping tail up and down, as if trying to get something moving in abdominal area. 
- Pelvic opening seems big, wider than my male pigeon Wieteke's. 
- Will read post on egg-bindng. 

If too much salt (I followd the "sticky" post instructions on rehydrating solution, and was perhaps stingy on salt -- used a bit less than I did of sugar.
BUT -- one person's pinch of salt might be somene else's shovelful).

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Larry,

Tail pumping can be a sign of respiratory distress. It is a symptom of many problems including aspergillosis. I don't think any of us can accurately guess at the cause.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeon resting in humped or hunched pose*

Here is another picture, perhaps more descriptive. Pigeon is on heating pad. Breathing is barely discernable. If I pick im up, he holds his tail and head down, and sometimes pumps tail up and down. Wife also thinks as I do, that it is abdominal-area distress, since she felt him quiver or shiver a few times.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 



I have seen something similar two times some years ago...

The Pigeon simply drooped and sort of sagged with their head hung down like that, eyes closed...tail slightly pumping...and slowly got deeper and deeper into it and finally passed away. Each of them kind of 'melted' like Salvidore Dali 'Watches'. These two Pigeons were not particularly emaciated however.

I did have much of a repitior then, and I just did not know what to do at all.

Thinking about it again, I believe I would try Aureomycin anti-biotics, guessing the problem ( or some of the problem anyway, ) to be bacterial.

When I get emaciated late juveniles or young-adults or adults, they can weigh about like crumpled paper. Certainly half or less than that of what yours weighs. I have seen them to weigh so little it is hard to imagine they could still be alive at all.

So, I think if it were me confronting what you have there, I would start them on a good antibiotic, and I would with-hold Seeds for now, and instead, make up some 'thin' nutritious, gently vitamine-mineral-calorie enriched formula, and tube feed them small meals, waiting to see some poops happenning...

I would make their formula quite 'thin' initially.

You are keeping them warm, and out of any drafts, and that is very important...

I would also treat them for three days with Metronidazole, just for good measure.


And, for that matter, their Water, which I would use for mixing formula, and for them to be drinking, if they will drink on their own, I would have be the ACV-Water.

Is their Crop decidely 'empty' can you tell?


There may well be some Candida going on, or some Yeat problems...whether as primary, or more likely, as a secondary problem...and this can make the whole rest of it a little dicey as far as food goes...so, definitely no Seeds for now, regardless.

Far as I can say, this is what I would do.

I would start now...with offering him just electrolytes in ACV-Water ( two to three Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon), and make a pint or somehting of eletrolyte enhanced Water with some of that....when offering it for him to drink, make sure it is warmed to be about near his own body temperature...and after a few hours of him drinking these when offered, I would start feeding him via 'The Tube', and the intitial feeds say, could be like 15 cc every three to four hours for the rest of the day and even till midnight or two a.m. or something, or so that he gets three or four rounds anyway over 12 hours.

If poops start happenning by morning, then I would up the volume say to 20 cc every three to four hours the next day, or as somehow seems approprite anyway.

Keep him on a white Towell so you can see the poops well.

If all seems to go well there, maybe on day four I would offer some small whole Seeds like Canary seed or Finch Seed, and if he is interested in pecking then, I would also augment these Seeds with a glistening of fresh Olive Oil and various powders and suppliments and Purple Dulce powder or other nice non-salty Sea Weed made into powder in a little grinder blender or bought as small flakes.

Formula I would make would be 1/2 KT or Hagens or the likes, 1/2 plain Malto Meal, and about one measure of 'Nutrical' or it's equivelent equal in volume to one of the 1/2s of dry ingredients...and to which I would also add some pro-biotics and digestive enzymes...some Misu maybe, a little Vitamine Mineral suppliment...even some Elderberry or sour Cherry juice, and use the ACV-Water to mix it.

Of course formula should be about their body temp and must be warmed in Water in a Saucepan with the formula in a Tea Cup or the likes...do not microwave it.

Maybe you are up on this formula business, forgive me, I can not remember.

And I would mix it so it is rather 'thin', a little thinner than say melted Ice Cream anyway.

Probably, if I could do so time wise, I would also just hold him now and then, gently, and covered in my hands or against my stomach inside my shirt as I sit, so he can get a better idea of things being safe and warm and comforting...so the tube feeds then are not so out of context.

...do you know how to do the tube feeds?

How to wrap him in a cloth with his Legs pointed 'back', and tuck his tail between your knees with the extra cloth length there, as you sit for him to be upright, or I mean him being straight 'up' and comfortable, and to have no pressure that way against his Crop? Sit at a desk with a good bright Lamp shining down so when you open his Beak you can see very well for getting the tube in correctly...lube the tube with a little Olive Oil, and make sure there is air in the last 1/2 or so of the tube so no 'drops' can fall into his trachia when inserting...and so on...

Are you up on all this?


Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's pretty bad looking. I've had blunt trauma victims act like that, especially after having gotten dehydrated for laying about for hours or days after having been hit. I think it's going to be real close for this one and I'd probably go with the Cotrim (Bactrim) myself. For trying to tell if it's eggbinding, you should be able to feel some kind of hardness or hard lump in the back end. To me, they just feel like they're way too solid back there when they have that problem. You don't have a lot of time, though, I think.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

He drinks water eagerly on his own every so often. 

I gave the pigeon a dose of Cotrim antibiotic at 22:30 (10:30 P.M.).
(from 1/2 of a 960 mg Cotrim tablet, crushed to a fine powder, then suspended in 10 ml water. Normal dose is 1/10th of a cc per 100 grams weight of pigeon, twice a day. I gave him 0.3 ml from the 10 ml suspension). 

My measuring devices are approximate, since the apartment was thoroughly cleaned and furniture re-arranged, etc. and my "pigeon set-up" was reorganized while I was in U.S. 

NEW DISCOVERY: I was holding him after using baby bird feeding 2 cc syringe (has curved needle with blunted end and a flared "lip" on tip, cost me 7 Euro or $9) to give him cotrim dose. 

He was trying to hunker into my hand, and wedge himself ino the crook of my inner arm against my chest (I think for warmth, when I was able to get a better look at what I initially thought was a peck injury. A few soft 1+1/2 inch down feathers at the lower end of the ribcage on his back had been flopping around and finally broke away. (During the evening about ten feathers loosened). There was an uneven patch of skin, about a square inch in area, exposed. There was a tough scabby area showing, with a ridge of white flaky skin. There seems to be a raised, small tough dark red ring of scab showing, about 1/3 inch or 5 mm in diameter. It appears to be healed. Looks like puncture wound. From falcon talon? Speculation. He was wagging or pumping his tail up and down while I was checking. Vent area and feathers feel clean and soft. Don't know much about this area, since my "patients" pretty much said "get your fingers away from there!" 

He is now sleeping quietly. Will check on him during night. Will keep him hydrated. Crop feels empty and flat. Head resting on towel. A small amount of fluid (antibiotic water) dribbled out. Will try to get a liquid "power meal" if it seems he can handle it. Almost midnight now. 

Thanks, everyone. -- Larry.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I don't have anything helpful to add, Larry .. just wanted to wish you the best of luck with this very unfortunate pigeon. It's going to be a tough case, I think.

Terry


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Hi Larry

I think there are adult pigeons with gray eyes. They are just genetically rarer than the common orange eyes. Young pigeon eyes in my experience are dark (brown) not gray.

I am not sure but if a pigeon is lethargic, medication for coccidiosis- appertex is recommended.

(S)he could well be eggboung, I hope she isn't because that's really nasty.
Does she pass any (liquid) poops ?

My eggbound pigeon used to drink water every 10 minutes and pass poops leaving a grey chalky (calcium?) deposit.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Unusual posture: tail pointing straight up in air, crossed wings, head flat on towel*

Checked on him around midnight.

His tail pointed straight up in the air, wings were flat on ground, crossed under his breastbone, with right wing primaries on left side of body and left wing primaries on right side. Looked as if someone held him by tail and dropped him so he was resting on his lower throat. He had his tail as high as it would go. I stroked him under his abdomen for a while to relax him. Offered him a taste of runny liquid egg food (with a few drops of ACV per tablespoon of liquid. Couldn't tell if he was interested, just wanted to let him know good food was on the schedule for later. He is sleeping again now, at 1:05 A.M. Sunday morning. Don't know if he will make it through the night, but he/she will be warm and peaceful. He seemed a bit more vigorous, flapped his wings a few times to get into a warm spot, as if he wanted to only get into a dark quiet place and be left alone. 

Considering treatmernt also for intestinal parasites tomorrow.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Larry,

Just sending some positive wishes and a prayer for this very needy pigeon.

I'm sure your loving care, warmth, hydration is all he needs for now and it s a big comfort for him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 


If it was me, I would get some thin formula into him now...right now, no delay...

Consider to make as I described if possible...

I myself have never seen a 'melty-Bird' from blunt trauma, though as Pidgey mentions, it could happen.

The few I have seen, the two I have seen, I was confident had an illness or bacterial problem...

Yours also is likely starving at this point, and I am confident with his hydration being good enough now for some real 'thin' food getting in to his Crop a.s.a.p.


Prop him up also, in a Bowl lined with soft cloth, on the Heating Pad, so his head is elevated...you do not want Crop water seeping into his Trachia and giving im aspiration pneumonia...

Yours is still moving to seek comfort, so this is good...

Feed him now...and again in three hours, maybe 15 ccs or 20 of some thin tepid well made formula...

Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I've had a bird being lethargic and then struggling for a few minutes, assumming strange positions (as if his legs couldn't support him) before dying. I think when they reach this stage something drastic must be done to save them.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Larry,

Sorry I don't have anything to add to this to help you, but I just wanted to wish you good luck.

Linda


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeon is thirsty, and sleeping well*

Time is now 4:33 A.M. He is sleeping in a laundry basket. 

At 4:05 I woke him from a deep sleep, assuming he might be as thirsty as I was. I am fearful he will dehydrate and over-heat and be too weak to move off of the heaing pad (set on medium but seems to be set on low when no heat-reflecting surface is beneath the pad). 

When I woke him he was standing with his head a bit higher, but still bowed. His breathing was barely discenible, and I thought he might be dead. He woke when I put my hand near him and moved the towel partly covering the laundry basket. On the white paper towel under his rear an area the size of my hand was wet, and some was stained a dark olive-green.

I took a one liquid ounce (30 ml) jigger shot glass (filled with warm water, put in three drops of ACV and about a half milliliter of racing pigeon _Colombosal_ vitamin booster mix. I used a syinge and dropped a few drops on my tongue, it tasted faintly acidic. I put it under his beak, he gave it a cursory taste, then greedily drank two-thirds of it, about 20 cc's. I picked him up. He seemed more vigorous, and alert. Put him back down, and he appears to be sleeping. Head is not flat on the towel as earlier tonight. 

Read the posts. I will feed him early morning. Need to figure out what. Maybe some hard boiled egg yolk, if it needs to be liquid enough to go through a syringe or tube. Need to find a tube, see if I have one. Don't know if I have electrician's heat shrink-wrap plastic tubing (used to insulate soldered wires) that is long enough. I have some plastic tubing, but too thick, and inner diameter too narrow. Everytime I hand/force-fed a bird, I used a paste or mush with a scoop-shaped small spoon. Too thick for tubes or syringes. The egg-food I have is like crackers. We'll see. Will get something done after he sleeps a bit more. Need to to osme searching, since wife has completely re-arranged and re-organized practically everything in the apartment and basement.

Thanks, everyone. (That is me in the pic. Had to use the built-in iSight camera in the lid of my new Mac laptop to get the pics). Time is now 5:10 A.M.

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If he's fairly well-fleshed, then eating isn't quite as important. It always seems so with us but it's not as big of a deal to them, especially when they're expending a lot of energy fighting disease. It takes some energy to digest food and you don't get back from the food immediately. It takes quite a few hours because even glucose isn't the primary energy of cells--it's adenosine triphosphate, which has to be synthesized in the cells from glucose, oxygen and other stuff. That initially takes energy to do. Something like that, anyhow.

I wonder if there is an infection that's encephalitic. Some of those symptoms make me lean that way a tad. Encephalitis can affect different areas and it's possible that he got an infection from a puncture too near the spine. Bless your heart, Larry, but this is going to be a tough vigil whatever it is.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 

I am feeling pretty vexed with the quality of your replys or discussion here, especially as I spent a lot of time writing to you in this thread and you do not even let on in any way that any of it ever existed.

I am going to put this to you blunt -

If you want my help, at this point you are going to have to say so definitely.

If you do not want my help, please say so and I will gladly leave your thread alone, and you are welcome to continue to screw up whatever slim chances this Bird had, any way you like.

Let me know please, and if it continues to be nothing for any actual replys from you ( you know, like when I say "Hi Larry" as if you existed, verses maybe saying nothing? How you say "nothing") , I will politely let this be my last contribution to this...and probably to you also.

I have a lot of other things to do Larry than to write to people who are rude, or too stupid to even know how rude and oblivious they are, and who do not listen to boot.


So, please get this straight with me, so I can know that at least you are aware of it, and that you can actually take one moment to reply to me as if I and the information I spent time writing to you about, existed.

If you did not like the info of my prior poats to you in this thread, I will gladly make sure I never waste your or my time again in this or any other thread of yours.

But pardner, I need to know, so tell me in simple English please.

Try this as if you had any manners at all, try saying "Hi Phil" as if you could reply to a post written TO you...and just let me know.

If you do not want the info, I sure as hell have better things to do than keep offering it to you so you can ignore it and ignore even saying "Hi Phil, I do not like your info and I want nothing to do with it..."

The silence and rudess is a lot worse than an honest rejection.

So, thats where I am at with you, and with this thread.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Larry,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Phil, I can't believe what I read from you. This is as rude and inappropriate as anyone can get!

What are you trying to do? Chase members away.  

I was wrong about this site...there are rude members here. 

It has been a bad day...first, a bad reply earlier from a moderator of all people...and now _yours._

Shame on you too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Victor, 


As if you are contributing anything whatever here by that.


Larry is not a new member.

And yes, Victor, lets see you spend the kind of time here I do on real things, lets see you try it.


lets see you walk people through these things, and when they do not even allude to all the info you are giving them, when each time you address them by name, and they do not bother to address you by name, while they ignore the info, lets see how fed up you can get.

You contribte nothing but little fluff things, so lay off.

This is not your kind of thread anyway.

Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*In my defense...*



pdpbison said:


> Thanks Victor,
> 
> 
> As if you are contributing anything whatever here by that.
> ...


Phil,

*With all due respect to your wisdom of pigeons, you certainly do lack one thing, and that is the ability to get along with others. 

And you ARE "contributing" by slamming and insulting a fellow pigeon talk member in good standing?

As far as a new member, I was referring to the new members we have been getting in here lately.

And I am sorry that I do not spend as much time on here as you do...if I did not have two full time jobs and two of my grandsons living with us, maybe I could live up to your expectations Phil.

In my defense, I have a nice enough boss that knows of PT, and allows me access to check on new member emergencies when I can, but as a transit supervisor, I am also dealing with transit situations that come first. When a member has an emergency it is nice for someone with some knowledge to be a first responder.

I am sorry that you feel that I contribute nothing but "fluff stuff". I joined in December of 2004 and started at a late age with one wonderful pigeon in 2003, and thanks to him, and this site, and more knowledgeable members as yourself, I have a better understanding of pigeons. And yes, I have much more to learn and experience. I have on at least one occasion stated on here that I wish I would have had a pigeon come into my life at a younger age. But I appreciate what I do know.

So this is not my kind of thread anyway? Interesting. 

I am sure that others, including Big bird, would disagree with your comment Phil.

I am VERY disappointed in you sir.*

*I guess I will go the my PET PIGEON thread WHERE I "BELONG" ? *


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

May I remind contributors of forum rules of conduct:



> 3. *We require civil and ethical conduct on all forums. Personal attacks on other members, or Pigeon-Life.net itself, will not be tolerated*. If asked, you will yield to the requests of the forum moderators and administrators.


Any member has the right to post on any topic in any forum. There are no so-called 'experts' here, for which we should all be truly grateful! 

I would also add that no-one is obliged to respond specifically to any other individual member or post. The concern on the forum is for needy pigeons, and precisely who said what is of far lesser importance than the fact that useful suggestions and advice are offered.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Victor, 


You are trying to lure me into anything for your back biteing to have something to justify itself.

You are contributing nothing either to the problem here, nor to the thread.

You are trying to make the problem more complicated and ugly by you being the problem now.

Please lay off, and if you want, try taking what I was saying in earnest.

If I or anyone of experience, takes the time to write detailed, definite, defential, personal informations to someone else, and the soneone else does not acknowledge any of it in any way, and while I or others write TO that person by name in a salutation that makes it clear WHOM they are writing, and the person does not address any one by name and does not reply TO anyone but is talking to the Air or something...

At what point would you, for example start to feel snubbed, discouraged, ignored, and feel like you are wasting your time?


You have never written detailed or substantiative posts to have any idea of the effort it takes, the time it takes, the care it takes, to know what a waste of time it feels like when it is like writing to the Aether and the recipient is oblivious to your having written anything at all.

You do not know, you have never been there.

You do not know what this is like...you are never involved in anything where real info and detailed things are something you are trying to share with someone anbout an important matter....for you to know, how exhasperating it can be when all oif it is ignored and where you are being ignored and the person will not even address you as if you existed at all.

Hence, it gets very confuiseing as to just WHAT is going on?


Does the operson resent the info?

Are they snubbing you?

Are they just really stupid?

Are they blind, and missed it all?

One does not know WHAT is going on to know where to go from there, or how to find out from the person, what-is-going on, other than, it starts to really feel like a waste of time tryint TO communicate with them.

It hardly makes one wish to continue TO write to such people, and usually I just lay off and leave them to their thread and say nothing about how exhasperated I felt.

If I do say I feel exhasperated, you or others get all upset and pissy and try and make a big problem about it, yet you never offer correctiuons TO such rude people as do not offer any salutation by name to those writing to 'them' by name...nor to offer corrections to posters when one can not tell on any way from their posts that they ever read or wanted information someone is taking a lot of time to offer to them.

Where are you then Victor?

I know you hate me for your own reasons, and are only too anxious to jump in to try and stirr the poop to make any little thing like this, as bad as possible. That Victor, is obvious.


Try and see this Victor as something more and something else than an opportunity for you to jump in with back biteing and poop-stirring to see if you can make it worse, hopeing others, me for example, will get blamed.

Learn a new game please...a more mature one, a constructive one.

Larry is almost 60, I am a little younger, let him and me discuss our issue here please, and stop jumping in trying to scatter all the energy and manipulate it to your own ends.

Were I come from, in my own social proprieties, in how people interact, Larry has so far been incredibly rude and oblivious, and it is offensive.

If you do not agree, fine, say so and shut up. But please do not try ijacking the thread to your own ends like this.


That..for now, is the issue, not you.

Otherwise Victor, your gesture here trying to poop-stirr like this and back bite and make problems is so hideously transparent and petty as to offend anyone of any sense at all with it's visciousness and cowardly opportunism.

Grow up, find your own battles please.

Stop trying to hijack this thread for your own revenge and pettyness.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> May I remind contributors of forum rules of conduct:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi John,


Thank you.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

I don't like it when there is animosity between 2 very well respected members of the forum  - two members who have given me fantastic advice and support over the year I have been a member. 

Phil I am always amazed by the length of your posts - they are pretty comprehensive and I think it is wonderful that you spend so much time trying to help people with such detailed information and I am sure absolutely everyone appreciates ( even Larry - who I think is probably just very pre-occupied with this very sick bird but has taken your comments on board even if he hasn't acknowledged it personally) your knowledge on the rehabilition and treatment of pigeons. 

Victor - you are a super, kind member who has taken into your life 5 pigeons ( could be 6?) some of which were rescues from this site needing homes and you also give such wonderful support. 

You both in your own ways offer practical help or words of comfort and I don't like to see the petty squabbling - hey *Larry's pigeon getting better is the main focus here* - please lets' not fight.....

Tania xx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Larry,

Did the poor baby make it through the night?

It is far more important that rescuers spend any time that they can spare to type telling us what you have done and what symptoms the pigeon displays that acknowledging separate contributions. 

The pigeon and its welfare have to come first and last.


Cynthia


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Reporting in*

Phil, 

First of all, I will say that the pigeon seems to be doing much better. I say "seems to be" instead of "is," because there are always hidden things going on which I may not be aware of, and I don't like to say a pigeon is doing better, then immediately get back on the forum to post that he passed away. 

Second of all, I want to thank you for reminding me to be more aware of my social obligations. I was not aware I had offended anyone. (My wife often "assists" me with my antisocial attitudes). When I said "thanks, everyone" I was hoping to cover all bases, focus on the pigeon, keep the wife happy, and get some sleep. We had been recently forced to evict our pigeon Wieteke from our apartment, at the insistence of the landlord, and how to care for a pigeon at an (unspecified) place some distance from our residence posed a problem. 

I apologize if I did not acknowledge your well-thought-out and lengthy post directly. I did consider what you said, and was still going over everything. Many things here were still in a jumble, so I was a bit scattered.

In your first post, at 9:17 P.M. here, you said that your birds weighed much less compared to this bird, so I felt I had a bit more of breathing room, which relieved me. 

I don't have Aureomycin antibiotic on hand, only cotrim and ciprofloxin (which I use myself). I cannot purchase any antibiotics here in Germany without getting a prescription from a doctor (human or animal). The vet I have seen gives me only enough medicine for one course of treatment for the one bird he sees and treats (in other words, no spare medicine for an additional bird left at home, and no leftover medicine for the next occasion of illness. He is therefore not treating birds which are not his patients, and which he can not be responsible for. The pigeon fanciers tell me that it is different in Belgium and in Great Britain.

It is a weekend, and although there is an emergency vet on call, I would have to drag a sick bird in need of peace and quiet on a noisy bus and streetcar and subway system. Even to go a few miles takes an hour or so. A bicyclist usually beats the transit system if the distance is less than ten miles. I don't have a car. A vet I might access on a weekend, if I had the money, are not all familiar with birds, so I would probably be informed that the pigeon had what others on this forum had already guessed or suspected. My confidence in the usefulness of local resources is not the greatest, with the exception of lab work. Some of the advice I have been given is contrary to advice I have read on these forums, and therefore seems to me more an opinion than avian medical expertise. There are two or three vets in the Cologne area recommended for pigeons. The one vet I have worked with, when I asked him about vet resources available on weekends, said that there are no bird vets (in Germany), that any vets specializing in birds would starve for lack of enough patients, and that "all vets" here are "bird vets." I won't get any aureomycin or metronidazole without a fecal sample test, right?

There are probably some doctors and labs specializing in the poultry industry. If I look at the Chevita website, a German maker of medicines and treatments for birds, much of the time they recommend not treating individual birds, but rather quarantining them and maybe culling them, and depending on examining the dead birds for diagnosis, and treating the rest of the flock. The health of the flock is emphasized over that of the individual bird. It is not always so helpful when seeking treatment for the individual bird. I do not think I have said anything libellous here; this is my interpretation and opinion of the website. 

I listed what I had on hand, and that is pretty much what I will have to work with. 

Back to your points:

After capturing him, he immediately had a bit of water, which he passed. I did not have immediate access to anything else.

After getting access to more resources, he immediately was given a mega-dose of Colombosal ("a unique combination of organic phosphoric links and vitamns, ... supports the metabolism and liver function"). Then he had some electrolytes (universal re-hydrating solution) to drink. Then some ACV water.

Shortly after drinking, he would pass liquid. There was some green in the liquid (bile, right?). 

Because he seemed to have similar symptoms to those which I have when I have stomach or intestinal cramps, I thought he may have a blockage or cramp which allows liquid but not solids to pass, and therefore as you suggested, only thin liquid meals should be given. You suggested starting him on liquid food after a few hours of ACV water, which would have been midnight here. I gave him the cotrim in 2 cc's water at 10:30 P.M. here, upon Pidgey's recommendation posted at 9:57 P.M here, after searching the house for necessary utinsels and tools. Since he eliminated any excess water through his vent and his mouth shortly after drinking, I held off on more liquids (and liquid food) so that he would absorb more of the antibiotic. He seemed more energetic after the vitamins, and I knew that he was expending energy and was tired from cramping, but it was my judgement that he would make it through the night without more food. Just a gut feeling I had, hard to express in descriptive words. I couldn't tell you and cyro51 in words why I had that feeling. Nothing physical about him I could describe. Just his attitude, or the look in his eyes, or the way he sought comfort in being held and staying warm and receiving attention. Something. I don't now. I knew he was starving, and a lack of a certain supplement, calcium or potassium or whatever, could be critical. He still had enough energy, and enough body mass to "cannibalize" or metabolize. You and Cynthia alarmed me enough however to make me be sure to check on him every two-three-four hours (I wake often and easily, thus try to avoid using alarm clocks). 

Since there was a question of egg-bindng posed by forum members, and I seemed to recall that calcium deficiency was sometimes involved and one remedy involved an intramuscular injection of calcium, I decided to hold off on ciprobay/ciprofloxin antibiotic, since I seemed to also recall having read that it is a chelating agent, a calcium-binder. I would deal with the issue of an additional antibiotic later. 

Your next post advising immediate feeding came at 2:15 A.M., which I read at 4:33 A.M., after I had given him some more ACV to drink. He was holding his head up more before I woke him at 4:05 A.M., so I disregarded the advice to put him in a bowl on the heating pad. The heating pad is too unpredictable (aggravating!). The heat can slowly build up. I need to let the bird be able to move away from it and off it if I am sleeping and not actively watching him. 

At eight this morning it occurred to me that if I have no tubes for feeding, I can take a plastic sandwich bag, cut off a bottom corner large enough so that a pea can pass through, fold it in half so that the bottom corner is at the bottom of a funnel, and then roll it into a tube and wrap it with a bit of tape. I would use it the way a cake decorator squeezes a cloth funnel full of icing. 

Also, when you mentioned liquid food, my mind was a blank. Don't have Hagens, Malto Meal, Nutrical brands here in Germany, and was trying to think of corresponding substitutes. I think of chicken broth or vegetable broth. (Aside: Germans call beer "liquid bread"). This morning it occurred to me also that I could pulverize the hard, crumbly egg food fine enough so that it would pass through my funnel. To two tablespoons of egg-food I added:

-- a pinch of Roehnfried Anti-Worm, (which I hope will effect relief of cramps)
-- 3-6 drops of ACV, 
-- pinch of probiotic, 
-- 3-4 drops of Roehnfried Blue Tincture for Fowl (disinfectant, probably kills good gut flora, instructions say follow up with vitamins), 
-- two drops of garlic oil,
-- 1-2 cc's vitamin mix, warmed.

Fed him around 8:30, after 2nd dose of cotrim. 

Read posts. Wrote reply from 9 till now, with 45-minute break to go to nearby Sunday pigeon and small animal market to see if I can find anything useful, which didn't take place (city is blocked off for 8th Ford Marathon). 

If I go to a vet, I get one reply. Maybe nothing more than an opinion. That's it. Can't afford too many of those.

If I come to these forums, I get all sorts of opinions and advice. We are all different. I find that wonderful. Such a wide variety of expressions. Truly a treasure, to be valued for what it is. Also, we need some light-heartedness, some comic relief, occasionally.

Thanks, Phil, Terry, Cynthia, Pidgey, John D., Victor, Linda, Pigifan, Treesa, Linda, and anyone else not mentioned.

I really do appreciate all that has been done for me. 

My thinking is sometimes convoluted, twisty and turny. Some times I arrive at my destination, others not. 

Someone else asked me a question back in January. Don't have an answer yet. Still thinking about it. Didn't answer right away. Maybe I better get on it.

Hey, wife said we're getting poops now! dark green with white urates! He's standing, normal stance! No cramps. He's pecking at her fingers. He's now pecking at small seeds, but not getting them in. Maybe too weak still. Gotta go make some more food for him.

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Hey, wife said we're getting poops now! dark green with white urates! He's standing, normal stance! No cramps. He's pecking at her fingers. He's now pecking at small seeds, but not getting them in. Maybe too weak still. Gotta go make some more food for him.


That sounds very optimistic to me! 

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Larry,

Thank you for everything you have done for this pigeon, and letting us know things are looking more positive today.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In cases like this where it's not viral, it's usually either a dramatic comeback or a fairly quick passing. There's always the danger of brief moment or period of lucidity and then death but in such cases there's not a lot you can do. I finally figure we're out of danger when the patient is flying (or walking, if that's the only option) all over the place, eating like a horse, pooping me out of house and home and biting my hands whenever possible. And not a moment before.

As to the chelating deal, it's actually the calcium that binds the fluoroquinolones (Baytril, Cipro, etc.) and renders them less effective rather than the other way around. 

I am more hopeful at this point on this one.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeon going down*

The last hour or so the little pigeon has been struggling, digging with his claws into the towel and trying to burow headfirst into the towel, holding his rear into the air. Trying to evacuate his bowels, it seems. Looked at photo of pigeon skeleton. I had a lot of difficulty trying to find his vent. My index finger was wider than his pelvic girdle, so don't think female, don't think egg-binding. Warmed some olive oil, put 1 cc into cloaca. Opening seemed to loosen up a bit. Still struggling. Used a few drops of Bach's Rescue Remedy on tip of tongue. Tried to fly a few times, dig headfirst into anything available. 

Still struggling. His upper torso was bent forwards into the towel, as though trying to stand on his throat. His lower torso was bent the opposite, as though trying to tuck his tail into his tummy. Gave him some water just now, first warm (a drop of blood and a few drops of mucus came from his beak into the water. He drank. Gave him some cooler water as an option. He drank.

He is exhausted. No energy left. He has worn himself out. His energy seemed to ebb as he was drinking. No strength left in legs.

Lower eyelids closing. Resting in my right hand as type with my left. His tail still down a bit. Resting his head on side.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Larry, that doesn't sound good.
I've seen a couple of birds acting like this and one of them had blood coming out of his beak. Both had internal trauma.
One of them came yesterday in the clinic and looked like the one you are describing, his owner brought him in, the door fell on him and he had head and internal abdominal trauma.Another thing I am thinking about is rat poisoning. The blood makes me think about it. The most commonly rat poison uses coumadin which gives internal bleeding and abdominal cramps.
Maybe you can try some vit K if you have. It needs to be injected though, cause otherwise it takes too long for it's action to kick in.
Poor baby, sounds like he is suffering.

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*vitamin k*

Reti, 

I DO HAVE liquid vitamin Kanavit 10 ml bottle (active ingredient Phytomenadion). 1 ml Emulsion has 20 mg Phytomenadion (Vitamin K1). 

I have 
0.1 mg syringe with subcutaneous needle for allergy shots 
1.0 cc syringe with subcutaneous needle for allergy shots
2.0 ml syringe with larger gauge 2.5 cm long needle 

All needles used 10 years ago, or allergy shots.

Subcutaneous or intramuscular?

How to give injection?

Waiting for reply. 

Thanks, Larry.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I send you a PM.

Need pidgey to check on the dose.

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re suspected poison -- rat poison*

Re suspicion of poisoning

I saw dead rats poisoned by the city on September 12, 2005 (warning to not touch the dead rats poisoned by difenacoum, an anticoagulant rodenticide, posted near-by, invoked the authority and permission of the Cologne mayor's office: Burgermeister, Rathaus). 

Didn't see any notices lately, or any dead rats. Man was caught a week or so ago with 20 still warm poisoned pigeond in a sack at the Cologne Catholic cathedral ("the Dom"). Police were involved. 

This pigeon probably frequently eats at site (recycling bins) where rats were poisoned last year.

Pigeon did not show any blood yesterday, and only a spot this time. 

Pupils not do not seem too dilated. Responds to movement.

Passed some dark green, oily poop after infusion of 1-2 cc warm olive oil. 

Pigeon is weak, but resting, lying down, legs beneath body. Not straining now, probably exhausted. Lower beak moving up and down a wee bit, head on side.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Larry, I can't help you on this beyond what others have posted. It does sound like he has been poisoned.

I just want you to know that I am thinking of you and admire the way you are trying to save this little one. They are tough and hopefully with the loving care you are giving him, he will pull through.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re poisoning*

I had my doubts about poisoning, because I saw only one drop of blood come from his mouth late this afternoon, but upon reflection one drop of blood at the mouth might indicate a lot more bleeding further down, and might explain the cramping. 

Hilde said she also suspected poisoning yesterday (but didn't pass her suspicion on to me). 

Reti suggested (in eMail) 1 drop orally if the medicine was intended to be given by mouth, but it would take longer.

I had a 0.1 ml syringe with fine needle for subcutaneous allergy shots. He seems to be going, so I decided to give him what I could get in the syringe without air bubbles. I had watched our vet give Pidgiepoo a shot into the breast muscle (apparently right through the crop) without Pidgiepoo even noticing, so I had no qualms about giving an injection to this pigeon into the lower breast muscle next to the keel. 

My response to Reti by Email: 

Reti,

Don't want to risk waiting. Gave him 0.2 ml in the muscle next to the keel. Muscle felt firm.

Syringe didn't have graduated markings on the side, so measured afterwards how much he got by using another syringe to measure an
equal amount of water from the first syringe.

His pupils don't seem to respond to a flashlight, but I have to be careful saying that because we have the lights dim and I might be
imagining the response or lack of response. He is limp and listless.

Hilde has been holding him the past two hours, crying.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

After the injection of vitamin K1 (against possible internal bleeding) the pigeon was panting a bit faster, but is now more relaxed, and Hilde thinks he is a bit more responsive. Still exhausted and limp, but aware. He did some poops. 

Haven't seen any blood in poops, or black, tarry stuff (I don't know what to look for in pigeons).

I guess I shouldn't say he is getting better or worse until he is trying to take over and pooping mightily, as Pidgey says. 

Lady Tarheel, they realy are tough and resilient birds, amazing.

Hilde thinks he is doing better. Maybe so, maybe not. We hope and pray that his suffering is past, and that he begins to again enjoy life. 

It is late, 9:20 P.M., and we hope he gets a good night's rest. We'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for all of your help, everyone. 

Larry


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Re suspicion of poisoning
> 
> I saw dead rats poisoned by the city on September 12, 2005 (warning to not touch the dead rats poisoned by difenacoum, an anticoagulant rodenticide, posted near-by, invoked the authority and permission of the Cologne mayor's office: Burgermeister, Rathaus).
> 
> ...


He had broken their necks. He hadn't poisoned them. I wouldn't rule out poisoning though.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

alvin, why was this guy killing the pidgey's?? to eat them?? i had a cop tell me today that people catch them to eat them... well, i just dont get how someone doing bad to them caught so many and im trying to catch this damn pidgey with string caught up in his foot and cant get him....

and larry, i wish you the best of luck with this guy. i am sending my warm happy thoughts to him. and really, he is around warmth and love so if he has a shot, you are giving it to him so just remember that.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Larry,

If it is poisoning I would be thinking of helping the bird detoxify. I probably would keeping him extra well flushed with hydrating fluids and to this I would be adding some Vitamin C, Alpha Lipoic Acid, NAC and milk thistle. These will help bind toxins and support the liver, which if it is poisoning must be under a heavy load. I would also be think of perhaps administering some activated charcoal as well.

All the best,

Ron
_
Thanks CR_


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*detoxifiication*

Moxie, thanks.

Ron,

I am giving him ACV, so that should cover the vitamin A. He has had some real power food today, and is limp and exhausted but somewhat alert. It is 10:30 P.M. and I am going to let him go until morning for more food. Will check every couple of hours. Wife saya holding him is having beneficial effect. We will keep close watch, offer water, etc. 

What is NAC? Not familiar with items on your list, here in Germany. May have to google them. 

Thanks, 

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It is activated charcoal that is used to bind poisons that have been administered orally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_carbon

Cynthia


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

xxmoxiexx said:


> alvin, why was this guy killing the pidgey's?? to eat them?? i had a cop tell me today that people catch them to eat them... well, i just dont get how someone doing bad to them caught so many and im trying to catch this damn pidgey with string caught up in his foot and cant get him....
> 
> and larry, i wish you the best of luck with this guy. i am sending my warm happy thoughts to him. and really, he is around warmth and love so if he has a shot, you are giving it to him so just remember that.


He wasn't doing it to eat them. Apparently it is alleged that he is a self styled 'Pest control expert' specializing in pigeons.
Anyway, the police are taking it seriously. So that's good news.

He is out of the pest control business as of now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think it pretty much only works on what's left in the intestinal tract. I've no idea how many different kinds of poison there are and certainly can't guess on an antidote without knowing which one MIGHT have been ingested.

Anyhow, you have to be real careful feeding a bird that's head is flopping down, especially when stuff (liquids, anyway) have been oozing out the front end. That's often a recipe for aspiration disaster. When that probability is too high, it's best to try and prop the bird in such a way that its head is resting in an elevated position.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Larry_Cologne said:


> It is late, 9:20 P.M., and *we hope he gets a good night's rest*. We'll keep everyone posted.
> 
> Larry


Indeed we do Larry.  
Hope you have a good night as well.

Cindy


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Larry,

NAC is short for N-acetyl-cysteine, here are a few links for some information on it, there are many other sites to search if you want further information:

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00215.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_nhi4446/is_4/ai_n16083808

The supplements I mentioned are not specific antidotes, but things that will help, as I said, reduce the toxicity load on his liver. In many poisoning cases, liver failure is a major contributing factor in death being the outcome. If you do look into all of them you will see the are all very safe even at high does. This can be done in addition to anything else you are doing or others recommend, I am just worried about helping his body flush out anything that may be causing the state he is in and protecting his internal organs.

Wishing you the very best of luck with him,

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, just knock it off, please.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, for the record, I'll put my two cents in on how my thinking was going: don't remember seeing, reading or hearing about a pigeon with quite these symptoms before. There have been descriptive words used such as "limp" and "cramping". The bird has alternately been standing normally, weak & exhausted to the point of collapse and cramping.

Besides the Cotrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa, I guess), no real drugs have been given. Supplements and vitamins (including a vitamin K shot to help clotting in case there's a hemorrhaging problem) have been administered but their effect in this case is probably minimal.

In all likelihood, this is a complicated deal. The bird has rallied enough to take absolute dehydration out of the list of immediate dangers but even that can cause a roller-coaster effect for weird reasons at times (shift from hypertonic to hypotonic).

We do have an injury on the back somewhere, the extent of which is unknown at this point not to mention the possibility of infection, type or likely area of spread. So, all in all, we ain't got squat for a diagnosis and no real path to one. As such, any answer is going to be a guess at best. I suggested the Cotrim because it's fairly easy on the system and if major Coccidiosis was involved or rising as a secondary problem, that'd help. There are other things that it will help against but I just thought: poor bird ain't feelin' good _at all_--better shoot for something (available) that's easy on the body.

I decided to leave the watering and feeding issue alone except to point out that sometimes feeding can kill and in more than one way (immediate energy depletion and aspiration). For all else, I decided to leave it with Larry and Hilde. Sometimes, sitting in someone's lap and just being held is the strongest medicine that a pigeon can get because the will to live is no small force.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

jazaroo said:


> Hi Larry,
> 
> If it is poisoning I would be thinking of helping the bird detoxify. I probably would keeping him extra well flushed with hydrating fluids and to this I would be adding some Vitamin C, Alpha Lipoic Acid, NAC and milk thistle. These will help bind toxins and support the liver, which if it is poisoning must be under a heavy load. I would also be think of perhaps administering some activated charcoal as well.
> 
> ...



You can also use turmeric, and barley also/in addition for detoxing the liver.

Sending continuing prayers and thoughts your way for this bird, Larry.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't have anything to add advice-wise, but bless you for working so hard to save this poor pigeon. I sure hope he will pull through.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*5:00 A.M., making rehydrating solution*

Hilde held little pigeon until 400 A.M., got stiff and I took over. Pigeon passed stool of dark green bile, couuldn't tell if urates were there.

I hold his head up with one hand. Hold him on my chest. His feet gripping my thumb of other hand. Any time I shift he wants his feet to be supporting him, or holding something. If paper towel is slippery, he scrabbles with his feet to find purchase. He drinks greedily every so often. Mostly passes water, after 4 A.M. poop. He looks at us with his eyes every time we move, as if to say "I'm still here!" He moves his mouth (lower beak, up and down) slightly as he breathes in and out, and sometimes "says" something with his throat. 

Rehydrating solution: (per Cyro51's post #3) 
-- 500 ml (two cups or one pint) warm water, 
-- 1/2 tablespoon or 7.5 ml glucose/sugar, 
-- 1/2 teaspoon (2.5 ml) of salt

To this I add 
-- some vitamin mix (Colombosal, mentioned earlier), about 5-10 ml, and 
-- 1/2 teaspoon (2.5 ml) ACV (apple cider vinegar with "mother" sediment in it). (Believe correct ratio is 1-2 tablespoons (15-30 ml) per gallon (4 quarts, or roughly 4 liters or 4000 ml).

Typing all this out so I can re-read it to make sure I have this right. Earlier notes scattered all over, and need to keep it dark in here. Using different languages, several measuring systems with different language spellings for abbreviations, need to double-check everything). 

Lying in bed earlier it occurred to me that Phil had mentioned using elderberry juice (he had mentioned it also in previous threads), and I forgot to mention that we have few 24-hour 7-days-per-week stores here. In the past all stores closed at 6 P.M. Mo-Fr and at noon or 2 P.M. Saturdays. Now some stores are open until 8 P.M. Monday-Friday, and some like Aldi are open 8 A.M. until 8 P.M. 6 days a week. Pharmacies usually close at noon Saturday (I think). So I can't just hop in my car (which I don't have one of) and get some elderberry juice (if they even have it in Germany), or whatever else someone on the forum might suggest, and I might have to Google it in Google.de (for Deutschland, Germany) and plow through all the ads. "Dove" is still a soap, and the German word for pigeon, _Taube_, also means deaf-mute. 

So, now to read the posts that came in after 10:30 P.M. last night (3:30 P.M. CET in Texas). Then back to sleep, or whatever comes.

Much thanks to all. 

Larry (& Hilde, who's sleeping).


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re: liver detox*

Wife has some barley product (for a cereal mush or something like that), somewhere.

We have tumeric.

I take 2-3 tabs per day of 200 mg ACC (Acetylcystein) as a mucus-thinning agent. Powerful stuff, works really well, available worldwide under various brand names. Don't know if it is the same as NAC. Need to check it out when I get up.

Using activated charcoal: can burn toast, or brown flour in pan, when necessary, against diarrhea. Would some of this stuff slow down or stop all intestinal movement or activity for a while? I know when reading about poison control some years back some routines were prescribed, some contraindicated. What was helpful in some instances (vomiting, or taking an emetic, for instance) was downright dangerous in other instances. In some instances you want to remove the poison as quickly as possible, in other instances you want to neutralize it and immobilize the patient, keep the poison where it is until it is neutralized.

Also, the vitamin mix _Colombosal_ has "a unique combination of organic phosphoric links and vitamins," and is good for the liver. It is for helping maintain racing pigeons in top form, and when they are ill. Expensive stuff, and highly recommended by a local pigeon and bird food and supplement supplier at the local Sunday pigeon and small animal market as the best, costs 20 Euro ($25) for 500 ml (a pint). This might also be helping against any poisons. 

It is unfortunate that we do not have dependable institutions for handling sick pigeons and other such (sometimes unwanted) creatures. We substitute for an actual knowlegeable medical person, sometimes we "play doctor," and the bird suffers, or even if we are somewhat qualified in a few instances, we have to get our sleep and have no stand-ins. And sometimes we have to merely watch helplessly, not sure of what to do.

Thanks to all for the later posts. Back to the pigeon, at 7:20 A.M.). (He has not aspirated anything so far. Usually not enough liquid in his crop for that danger).

Larry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for the updates Larry.

You & Hilde must be commended for all that you are doing, especially given the limited resources you have to work with. Bless you both.  

Cindy


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Well I hope the little girl/guy*

pulls through. Gee Larry what a job you and your wife have. I think your wonderful people to do all you have been doing for this poor pigeon. Trying to do all you can with limited resources is tough.. And on top of it trying to type replies to everyone who has helped you on this page, is not the priority here is it? The main thing is the pigeon, I understand Phil but one must stop and consider all Larry and his wife are going through with this pigeon.. That in its self is a 24/7 job. Larry you have and are doing a wonderful job. And all the members who have guided him along the way to helping this poor pigeon pull through..

Thanks Larry for helping this pigeon...
Andi


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

Still wishing you the best Larry, and Hilde. 
I'm sorry I can't offer any advise, lets hope for a turn around soon.

That's a little fighter you got on your hands there.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

With the system of holding him that you've worked out (which would help keep aspiration at a minimum), you might actually try to get some food down him. I'm not sure what it is that you've done to that end exactly (whether you've tubed to the crop or what) but you might try to get some down. Since this bird's throat is clear, I'd probably roll some dried peas down. They provide energy with very little by way of effort and they're a nice, un-aspirate-able package. They won't even go bad too fast if his system doesn't pull them through. They'll even go through as discrete little blobs if the system will handle it. You can even help him swallow them if that's tough for the little guy (just feel through the neck and work them down). I'd think about 10 or so as a trial run. I've done that on a few many, many times over the years. If you don't have dried peas, you can substitute small beans, lentils (you have to be more careful of aspiration if you use smaller things though so try to put them in down past the airway) and that sort of thing.

Just a thought.

I'm really hoping for this little guy, Larry! What Alvin said about him being a fighter is the absolute truth.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*thanks for your dedication*

thank you and your wife for being so dedicated and compassionate on behalf of this poor pigeon. Sabina and i have lost 4 of the 6 pigeons we have tried to help and have become, sadly, very familiar with them at deaths door. it is heart-breaking to see your best efforts not be sufficient to save them.

when we first encountered your post and read what you had to say about the pigeon neither of us thought he had a chance. what an inspiration your care has been i hope your little warrior makes it.

Aias


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Little one passed away 20 minutes ago. He was walking an hour ago.*

Taken from eMail to Pidgey, with additions. Don't have energy to re-type everything. Hope you don't mind, Pidgey and Phil. My kindest thoughts to you both. 

Pidgey,

There are definitely no hard feelings about Phil, absolutely none whatsoever. I know where he is coming from, because I do or have done the same. Went looking for elderberry (Holunderbeeren) and NAC (ACC, which I have). Pigeon seems to be doing okay has had his ups and downs today. Am exhausted from the emotional aspect of dealing with a sick pigeon and having no idea what is going on. Am going to do a short post now. I used to be a bill collector for General Electriic Credit Corp. for four years in the mid-seventies (needed a job after college), and learned that when you go into people's lives when they have problems they may yell at you, but it isn't personal. You are both great people, along with most of all the others I know from the forums, in spite of any individual quirks.

Oh, no, Pidgey. He's dead. At 9:30 P.M. He was on a pillow, in a tray, covered with a bit of towel, when I started to type this to you, Hilde wanted to talk to me a second, said where's the pigeon, he wasn't to be seen, had fallen between the bed and the wall. He had spent the day flapping his wings, to get his head tucked under something, I guess he was in pain, had a lobster tail look, tail tucked under. Pecked me on the face a bit as if to say thank you or I love you. Fed him a bit tonight. Before a small feeding, he had gotten up, hobbled upright on his feet to the edge of the bed, Hilde set him on the floor, he walked to some shoes, pecked once out of curiosity, walked a few yards to the wall, went deep into a narrow space where I had trouble reaching him (I told Hilde I think he is tired of suffering and wants to die in peace), but I retrieved him anyway, fed him a bit of sticky food -- and a couple of peas -- to get him through the night. Then he got off of the bowl-like tray where I had him propped up nicely, several times, as if to say I want to go now. Farewell, my little one. We had a real connection this mornng when I was rubbing his neck feathers, and he was on my chest. He had a strenuous day from breakfast an nine this morning, spent most of it with his head under a towel, tail tucked under, until five this evening when he relaxed and breathed easier, and was alert with his head up. Had normal pigeon position. Kept trying to to go up to my head, tuck his head near my neck. Weighed 235 grams when I got him, 215 grams this morning before eating, and 205 grams this evening at five. Had a sharp keel. Good wing flaps today, though, but could't get into air. I think the strong medications and supplements gave him a lot of energy, as if he had drunk lots of coffee, and this exhausted him.

This morning when I was grooming his neck and head feathers he looked real closely at me, as if surprised and saying to me "you really do love me, don't you?" and I felt such an outpouring of love from him. I moved my lips a few times, and he pecked gently at my finger. So much love from him.

Larry


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I am so sorry Larry. It is so hard especially when they communicate with you to let you know how they feel and thank you for your efforts.
So heartbreaking when you have as close a connection as you had with this pigeon.

No more suffering for him now, sadly we will always wonder what killed him.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am sorry, Larry. Your last post brought tears to my eyes. Those sweet intellingent creatures can show so much love, you can only love them back.

You and Hilde have done an amazing job with this sweetie, he must have felt better just because he knew you loved him.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I am so sorry Larry.
Bless you & Hilde for the love & care you gave that sweet baby.

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Larry, I am truly sorry. I was pulling so much for this little guy. You and Hilde are wonderful people to have given so much care and love to him. I know they know when people love them. Please rest now because I know both of you are very tired, emotionally as well as physically.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There can be no more intense experience than loving so much and fighting so hard for life, whether the patient is a pigeon or another person. Whenever I do necropsies, I usually have to wait awhile--I just can't do it until I've grieved and tortured myself for days over what I might have done differently. Actually, it's the necropsy that I get the most from in terms of answers but it doesn't do a whole lot for the emotions.

Take some time, Larry and Hilde, because it takes time and it'll never make sense for something so innocent to die while other evil things continue to live.

Pidgey


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Our hearts go out to you Larry and Hilde. The precious pigeon was such a sweetheart and your story has impacted many of us. Thank you both...you went through too much.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Larry, I like the others, am so very sorry to hear about the passing of this poor bird. You and your wife did a wonderful job with him and my thoughts and prayers are with you both.

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Dear Larry and Hilde,

I'm so sorry to hear about the bird.

I know he is at peace now, and hopefully that is some comfort for you.

Thank you for all the attention and care you endowed on this pigeon, you give a new meaning to the word "supportive care" both emotionally and physically.

Sending a big hug and my heartfelt condolensces to you both.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Larry, I'm so sorry. Your last post moved me to tears, too. It really sounded like he understood you were trying to help him. You gave him comfort and he died safe, warm and loved, not out on the street. Bless you again for all you did to try and save him.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Larry,

You and Hilde fought the good fight....thanks for all you did to try to help.

Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Larry and Hilde .. bless you both! I am so very sorry there wasn't a happy outcome here. You certainly did all you could have done and then some. Big hugs to both of you.

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Larry and Hilde, I am so sorry this pigeon didn't pull through. You two did everything possible to support him. Providing such critial care intensifies the bond you have which makes his death even more wrenching.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Thanking all of you*

Thanks, everyone, 

I will post more later, probably tomorrow, on him.
Maybe more details will fall into place, in retrospect. I will provide a few more details on his behavior, and maybe it will shed some light on what was going on with him. 

Larry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just "caught up" on your thread, Larry. I, too, add my sad condolences. You and Hilde worked so hard to bring him around. I'm so sorry!

The full version of the Mary Frye's poem, "Do Not Stand At My Grave and Weep," that you kindly sent me, now comes to mind, once again.

Hopefully, her words will bring you both some peace.

PEACE AND WARM COMFORTING HUGS...


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> *The full version of the Mary Frye's poem, "Do Not Stand At My Grave and Weep," that you kindly sent me, now comes to mind, once again.
> 
> Hopefully, her words will bring you both some peace.*
> 
> ...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Larry! Even when they have been in your care a short time their parting leaves a massive gap and so much grief.

Cynthia


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Larry & Hilde, I'm so, so sorry. I just spent the passed hour reading the entire thread and, like many others, am crying over this sad ending. You were both so wonderful in all you did for him - what you went through is draining, frustrating, scarey and ultimately heartbreaking. But most of all I want to thank you on behalf of this poor pijie, for easing his pain, making him feel that he wasn't alone and for allowing him to rest in peace in the comfort of your love...I have to believe he is still with you now and realizing how lucky he was to have found you.

(I don't mean to sound dramatic, but you have truly touched my heart.) Please take care of yourself and Hilde.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*What to look for in autopsy re respiratory distress*

I am going to add to this post, but also open another thread, briefly (unless a moderator advises me to keep everything in one thread), in order to catch the attention of anyone who may have some good advice, but who may consider this original threaad "closed" since the little pigeon has died (whom I will call "*Gray Eyes*" because he had such beautiful gray eyes, but whom I thought was a juvenile who would change eye color later. He will not outgrow the gray eye color now). 

My question: 

I'm going to do an autopsy this afternoon. 

I put hm outside on the window flowerbox overnight the night he died, in a plastic bag, to keep the corpse cool.

The next day, yesterday, I put him double-bagged in the fridge, so that hopefully gut bacteria wouldn't turn everything black. I had a medical appointment yesterday, and needed also to spend some time away from the grief in order to be able to do a postmortem exam, the procedures of which I know nothing as compared to a qualified medical person. 

I was re-reading the thread, and making spelling corrections (can't leave well enough alone) and Cynthia's (Cyro51) post #5 struck me again: "Tail pumping can be signs of respiratory distress." 

At the time I thought I thought of internal parasites, and was treating him with the Anti-Worm (natural plant extracts). didn't hear an abnormal breathing sounds. No canker. Didn't hear sounds like *Wieteke* made when I suspected air sac mites or wing air sac mites. 
I was thinking more along the lines of cramping after starvation, or growing infection from semi-healed puncture wound on back. His posture (lobster-tail, tucking tail under, holding tail in air seemed to me more abdominal or intestinal.

However, the abdominal area or lower thorax (terminology may not be exact) has air sacs. Maybe it was respiratory.

So, to the question, finally: anyone have any idea what I should look for? (Assuming the organs are not too decayed).

I might try some photos with a webcam. Not sure of the quality or the lighting. Also while having dirty gloved hands.

I anyone has any suggestions, would you please tack it to the end of the original thread, for continuity. With a litle scrutiny, we may work out a bit more on the diagnosis of what was going on with this little pigeon before he was in our care (my care, Hilde's care, and the care of the members of this forum). Thanks. Hilde wasn't too keen on my cutting him open, nor was I, but I told her I think he would have wanted it (had he been able to consider and discuss such a theme with us) if it would help some other pigeon avoid unnecessary suffering. I told Hilde that once I am gone, l want to donate any usable organs and let what's left of me be used for any studies, if practical. I won't be be needing this body any more, let the elements be recycled. Hope to not offend anyone whose religious beliefs are not in agreement. 

Phil (pdpbison) gave me some excellent suggestions in several eMails re pigeon treatments and therapies. Plan to discuss more with him.

Thanks to everyone,

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeon Gray Eyes*

I had continued the topic of pigeon *Gray Eyes* in a newer thread to get the attention of those who might offer me some advice afteer the death of Gray Eyes, but who might consider this thread effectively closed after his deat and not see my request. I am therefore attaching this post to both threads (I am not web-log savvy enough yet to know of a better way to do this). 

*I think I know what Gray Eyes' problem was.* 

I took a cursory look at the carcass of the pigeon Gray Eyes again this Friday afternoon, following the gross postmortem exam I had done Wednesday afternoon (Gray Eyes died Monday night 21:30). 

I checked to see if there had been any infection or necrosis at the site of an apparent puncture wound on the lower back, between the upper fight femur joint and the ilium (part of the pelvis). Pidgey had asked me to check out a yellowish coloring he had detected in one of the photos (taken by a hand-held webcam). There was nothing there to be seen. 

Then I looked at the gonads, and I think he was a young male (judging from a picture seen on a website today).

Looked at the upper torso, at the crop, which was spilling its contents after I had removed the internal organs after slicing through the trachea (windpipe -- reminded me of a miniature Slinky toy) and the proventriculus (which leads from the crop to the gizzard). 

*I saw a sunflower seed at the bottom of the crop, still in the hull, and looking rather fresh.* 

The hull was damp or moist, but and there was some mush which I had fed him. I had also fed him four or five seeds to get him through the night, consisting of two or three corn kernels and a roasted soybean and pea. He had about a level tablespoon of food for supper. He had labored the past two days, and had slept restlessly at night. He had relaxed and breathed easily and held his head up and was alert at 5 P.M., then slept for about two-and-a-half hours. I had hoped he would seep longer before I fed him. 

The whole time we had him, he would shove his upper chest against the ground. He would push with is legs. He always wanted purchase wih his feet. He refused to poop while resting on his breast, but would raise himself up, his lower back sticking up. He sometimes held his tail in the air as high as it would go. Other times he held his tail down, like a lobster when it propels itself backwards, with his tail almost tucked into his tummy. His upper back would be arched outwards, and his lower back arched inwards. He usually pushed or plowed forwards until his head, lying on its isde usually, would be pushing against something. I often covered his head so he could rest. When I held him with two hands, I would hold his front end in my left hand, his head tucked under my left thumb, and both of his feet gripping the thumb of my right hand. 

I thought he had pain in the abdominal region for him to be pushing so hard and for so long. His eyes showed tiredness, but calmness, more than pain. He did not seem to me to have a virus, but this was hard to tell. He breathed with his beak barely open, the lower beak opening and closing a bit with each breath, but not wide open and panting as if really overheated. I knew he was using up energy (some of it provided by the liquid food), and I thought his explained why he waould hold his wings out and aay fom his body, but he was also using them to hold himslef uprght as he pushd with hs legs and his chest against the ground. I held him in my hands and on my chest a good deal of the time, and Hilde held him in her hands, to keep him warm since he ha been starving and I did not want him to expend calories maintaining body temperature. I did not trust the heating pad much. Heat would build up, and I would check under him every ten minutes or so.

This evening it occurred to me that I had not fed him any sunflower seeds, cracked or uncracked, and that the sunflower seed, still uncracked, in its hull, could have lodged sideways with its sharp point and blocked the crop from emptying larger stuff into the proventriculus, and would not have ha a chance to be rnd up by the gizzard. It would explain his unusual postres, his constant pushing during the day, but resting a bit more during the night. I had thought the pauses between his "workdays" were perhaps from exhaustion. 

He eventually tried to go where he could be alone. I thought perhaps the powerful blend of medicines and fortfied supplements were maybe a bit too stimulating for him. I had him on my chest a lot that evening, and he would push hmself towards my neck and stop under my chin. I set him on the bed a couple of times, on a towel, while I sat eight feet away and researched the internet for a solution. He was lucid and seemed peaceful, and ha nibbled at my finger earlier. Before he died, he was on a rolled-into-a-doughnut-shape towel for head support, in a bowl-shaped tray on a towel on my pillow. He pushed himself out of it, fell into a crevice between the bed and the wall (I could barely squeeze my hand into it, it was less than two inches wide) where I found him lodged upside, asphixiated. The opening at the base of the tongue, the trachea, was unobstructed. a piece of corn, the last thing I fed him, blocked the throat, and kept him from aspirating any soft mush. He drank a lot of water Sunday, but much less on Monday. I gave him 0.3 ml water with cotrim antibiotic before supper. His crop had felt flat and firm, empty, when I had first inspected him. I did not go over every square millimeter of him, because he was a wild, frightened, and starving bird.

Conclusion (must admit, perhaps false): if one ses a pigeon pushing his upper chest, his crop, against the ground or anything convenient, perhaps there is something stuck in his crop. If I had detected it, made a slit, extracted the seed, and sewn it back up, he would have survived. 

While Hilde and I were heating water and making a liquid, soupy mush to put into a sandwich bag folded into a semblance of a tube with which to feed Gray Eyes, and thinking of how fine we needed to make the slush, I brought up again the news item I had read on the website "newsoftheweird.com" of an Australian boy who, a year or two ago, swallowed a watermelon seed. It lodged in a sag or sack in his throat, sprouted a vine which grew very quickly, and choked him to death. They found the sprout during the autopsy.

If only I had connected the dots....

Larry


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Larry_Cologne said:


> .
> 
> If only I had connected the dots....
> 
> Larry



Larry, I stayed out of this thread because there was nothing I could say to help you and you had some of our most knowledgeable members helping you.

But, now, there's something I can say.....

I just want to say, that I hope you're not blaming yourself for not realizing that Gray Eyes might have had a sunflower seed stuck in his crop.

I think you and Hilde did all that was humanly possible to try to help him and you even went above and beyond by attempting your own autopsy to determine what might've been wrong.

Remember, hindsight is always 20/20. Now that you know what might have been the possible cause of his troubles, it's easy to say "How did I miss that?" But, in reality, this was not so obvious a cause, that you should blame yourself for not realizing it before.

Thanks again for all you and Hilde did to try to help.

Linda


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Hindsight has its uses....*

Thanks Lin,

I'm not too involved with blaming myself, and still don't know that that seed was the whole picture. It seems to provide the easiest answers to the questions raised. More may unfold. 

That the pigeon *Gray Eyes* died, means that I did not intervene sufficiently in something that was going on. Simple fact. Don't need to indulge too much in blame or guilt, because that uses up time and energy which might be better spent on learning something useful, or even on necessary re-creation.

There are other things going on of which I have no inkllng. Perhaps his life had its own thread and purpose and direction, with which I was not to interfere in certain ways. I don't want every single person in the world to be able to interfere with and direct and change my life, unless it be with their purest prayers and intentions and best wishes, and thus I also have to acknowledge that sometimes no matter how hard I try, perhaps my efforts will avail to next to nothing. After all, there are many adherents of conflicting religions, philosophies, and political beliefs who fervently desire that I be of one mind and heart with them, and there is not enough of me to satisfy any of them after I should have been split into so many small pieces. 

We do our best, and enjoy the gift of life we have been given. It is not the length of a life that is significant, but whether that person or creature left fulfllled, with a full cup of enjoyment and appreciation and gratitude. Our other "accompllshments" (or lack of them) no matter how great they seem, amount to lttle or nothing in comparison.

This gives me an excuse to recall one of my favorite poems from my college years:

*Ozymandias* 

(written 1817), by Percy Byshe Shelley, an English poet (1792-1822).

I met a traveller from an antique land 
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone 
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, 
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown, 
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, 
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read 
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things, 
The hand that mock'd them, and the heart that fed. 
And on the pedestal these words appear: 
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: 
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!" 
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay 
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, 
The lone and level sands stretch far away. 

Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 


Again, and publicly, I am very sorry I was getting testy there, I have unwittingly got myself into some thought tunnel from fatigue and over-work and was just not in the right frame of mind to remember how to be tcactful and constructive.

Glad we were able to continue off site in our e-mail exchange.


My conjecture regarding your Pigeon, is that their system as being effected by a global toxicity or toxemia, ariseing from bacterial invasion of the wound site, whether there was consipucous infection of the wound itself or not.

Coupled with probable low grade Yeast or Candida problems effecting his Crop and digestive system...and, with that, whatever additional toxic products these Yeats can make ( Acitones, Alcohols, etc) burdoning his system, his Liver, his Kidneys and his ability to digest and pass much of anything.

Whole Seeds of any kind oculd well remain in such a Crop, without that they are per-se blocking anything, but rather, that the fine muscular contractions and movements which conduce the Seeds to the Stomach are weakened or ceased in such occasions.

Hence, for any injured Pigeon who has endured protracted privations sunsequent to his injury, I believe it is a good idea to put them immediately on a combination of electrolytes and ACV-Water for their re-hydration stages, and to continue with the ACV-Water there-after for a week or better.

if such a Pigeon seems in need of definite nourishment, I believe very thin and extra nutritious 'soups' ( formula ) in moderation, will be tolerated and will manage to in effect seep through without needing the fine muscular contractions Seeds tend to reuire to do so.

But even still, the Candida or Yeats need to be dealt with immediately, in ,y view or model of the scenario...or they will likely not be able to digest hardly anything, and or the Candida or Yeasts can continue to worsen unless treated.


I doubt the Sunflower Seed had anything much to do with anything, other than suggesting in it's way, that the digestive system, the Crop and it's conduceing food to the Stomach, was in a stasis.


I myself worry about this general scenario, any time a 'grounded' Pigeon can be supposed to have been iunjured and unable to forrage.

Since, whatever their conspicuous injury may be, if these other matters are afoot, we will tend to loose them while we are buisy treating the conspicuous injury, if we do not at once begin treating for these also.

Your Pigeon appears to have sufficated from having got itself into an upside down position there between the couch or bed and the wall, where Crop liquids owuld be trickleing into his throat as he was trying to breathe...unless I mis-understood or mis-remember your description.

So, as I gather, he did not die of his injury or infections or other issues, but rather from strangulation or aspiration combined with constraint and limited breathing from his getting himself jammed in there like that.

Pigeons in toxemia, Pigeons who are starved into toxemia, Pigeons with Nerve injury or spine bruises, can act 'drunk' and or will fall forward with stiff extended Legs, trying to stand...and or can push themselves as you described, till they jam themselves into some corner or other limitation where they remain, sometimes with their head inthe low coener, and their legs fully extended and their butts in the air.

Many kinds of Bacteria can become systemic, and without per-se making any conspicuous signs st the wound or injury site. 

As too can Yeasts poison their whole system...overload their Liver and Kidneys and make for odd and disturbing effects in their abilities to walk or stand.


Anyway, so far as I had a conjecture or model of the scenario, this it's description...this was my impression.


Recently, I found a young Adult Pigeon standing like a statue in traffic, with Trucks driving over him as he stood there.

Anyway, I got him rounded up pronto, and put jim on the ACV-Water and kept a close eye on him. He was not pooping anything, then finally some white and green...and after a while of that I let him peck some small Seeds.

He was strong, well fleshed and did not seem to have been emaciated.

He has come around nicely and is pooping well and eating full sized Seeds well, and last nigtht I gave him a worm pill for good measure.

My conjecture with him was Yeasts and Candida making him oddly 'drunk' from their Ketones and Acetones and Alcohols, for him ot be standing there like that. So, naively treating him as I did with the ACV seems to have worked well, as did letting him fast a few days there while things cleared up enough for him to digest.

If he has been perilously thin, I would have nipple-fed or tube fed him some thin nutritious 'soups'.

Your Pigeon at one point was 'nuzzleing', and I wanted to explain to you that when they will nuzzle, one can in fact nicely feed them by letting them eat from the hollow of a rubber Baby nipple.

This takes some finesse, and is hard to explain without going on for great length, as, to go about it wrong will doom it to failure...while to go about it correctly, allows an Adult Pigeon to 'eat' ( drink really, ) thin nutritious formula-soups as an alternative to force feeding or tube feeding them.

And with frail Pigeons, this is an elegant recourse, as well as one which wins favor from them so they feel a great deal safer, more understood, and easier about it all.

One always has to weigh and evaluate the condition of the Pigeon, to form an opinion on whether one should feed them, or let them, eat, or not.

and once one is seeing at least 'bile' and some urates comeing through, I believe that they then can handle 'thin' Soups in moderaiton, and derive a great deal of benifit from it...as well, potentially, from the gesture of feeding them, when they are willing to 'nuzzle' and to eat like Babys.

This then comforts them and imp[roves their moralle a great deal...suddenly, instead of everything being wierd and different for them, they have something meaningful and familiar and comforting to them...this then reduces their stress or conflict about the situation they find themselves in.

Many adult Pigeons who are seriously injured or ill or both, can be inspired to nuzzle, or will sometimes atavistically do so on their own.

The occasions I see this, they will cease to do it after a few days of being fed that way, and 'remember' they are adults, and start wishing for Seeds to peck instead. 



Best wishes...

Phil

Still way allergy dopey and over tired...in...
Las Vegas


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