# help! necrotic area on dove tummy



## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I recently posted regarding my rescue dove midget. Midget had extensive surgery to repair a massive skin tear around his left leg and abdomen following a cat attack. 


Midget seemed to be recuperating well, so i left the wound alone, feeling more interference could end up in the suture line being ripped. 

However, today (about 10 days later) i examined the wound, only to find that there is a necrotic scab underneath his body. This scab would appear to be part of the sutured together skin that must not have been getting enough blood supply. The size of the scab is approximately 2 cm by 2.5 cm. The scab appeared to be lifting up - with slight haematoserous ooze around the edge of the scab. 

I am unfortunately working today and tomorrow, and our vet is closed on the weekend. I COULD take lil midget in his storage crate to work in the morning, and book an appointment in in the afternoon - but then he would suffer the stress of being kept in a car in a multistory car park all day. 

OR i could wait until after the weekend and drive him to the vet on monday. 

WHat do you guys reckon? how urgently does this necrotic skin area need to be dealt with? 

Otherwise the bird seems alert, is grooming itself, and is mobile(unfortunately for that suture line) ,but not eating as much as usual - i had to hand feed it last night as the number and size of droppings just weren't adding up. 

THanks, 

Susie 

P.S I dont have my BFS phone handy so i cant get a good picture of the necrotic scab at the moment.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if there is dead tissue, take her back to the vet ASAP.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

did they give u antibiotics for him??
he needs them now, i would try to flush it really well with dilute betadine, and cake it with antibiotic ointment to try to soften the scab.
not sure if you should try to debride it without seeing it, you don't want to tear him


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if there is dead tissue, take her back to the vet ASAP.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Usually there would be an oral Antibiotic regimen...which I would guess came and went by now.


And, with me anyway, I treat any wound areas with topical Antibiotics ( Silva sulfadiazine usually, ) and inspect them every day or so while they are healing.


You could mix up some otherwise Oral Antibiotics ( stouter than if for oral administration) in some Saline Water, and, sluice the area out with this solution, using one of those 'Weevil Snout' Syringes, or by fitting a short length of Catheter to the Syringe, sluicing the area under the scab well, a few times a day for a couple days, and it would ammend the minor infection.


Does the Dove seem to be doing well otherwise? No hints of any systemic infection?


Topical infections can occur with no systemic involvement, so...she might be just fine but for this monor situation needing to be addressed.


If you soften the Scab well with the Saline, and, gently remove it a little bit at a time so as not to tear any Tissue beneath it, you could inspect to see of there are any necrotic issues going deeper...which if there are, if there is a 'plug' of sorts ( probably is not) then it should be gently removed, Topical Antibiotics applied, and then all will finish up healing just fine.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Can you post a pic of the wound?
I had a dove once that was attacked by a cat and after suturing the wound a few days later I noticed that extra skin that became necrotic. I flushed it daily and applied silvadene and eventually the necrotic tissue fell off and the rest of the wound healed fine.

Reti


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

guys thanks for the advice. I will ring the vet back in the morning and take in the dove asap. 

i havent been applying the silver sulfazine OR washing it with saline since the surgery as the vet told me pointedly that they dont normally use topical and oral antibiotics at the same time due to the effect on feather growth (sounded silly to me) and to stop using the silver sulphazine. 

i took the bird back to the vet a couple of days post surgery and the vet told me not even to touch the wound with normal saline to clean the wound surface - nor to use the intrasite to keep the wound bed moist, and that it should heal on its own. 

because of the 'fragility' of the suture line, and the vigor of the bird vi thought it was best to leave well alone and not inspect the wound - until i noticed the bird seemed to be eating less, and that its feathers were more puffed up than usual. otherwise the bird is still very lively. 

i think rule of thumb, next time take what the vets say with a grain of salt, and listen more to what the ppl on pigeon talk say  hopefully little midget is ok - i will try and take a photo tomorrow morning if possible (its midnight here).


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

fingers crossed guys. to my eyes little midget is not doing so well. he is sitting puffed up and not really eating or drinking. I have given him a hot water bottle and placed him in a position where he should get some heat. 

I took him to the vet today - he had the necrotic scab removed under anesthetic. that area actually wasnt too bad - underneath the scab was granulating tissue. However, further up was an area where three different suture lines met. This part was gaping open - this the vet was unable to resuture and instead suggested we treat as an open wound. 

This vet (not the same vet that did the initial surgery) said that intrasite would be a good wound packer - but still recommended against silver sulphazine! is it ok on really open deep wounds? or should i only use it around the edges of the wounds - im going to go ahead and use it anyway, because the bird is not on any antibiotics (the vet thought that he didnt need them) and i think it would have healed better if i had kept on using the silvazine throughout 

if midget survives the night, i will buy a proper camera and take photos when i next do the wound tomorrow.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I don't know what kind of Vet you went to but his telling you this bird does not need antibotics is absurd.

Any bird with an open gaping wound is susceptible to all sorts of bacteria and infection. This bird should be on antibotics.....if not to treat an already exising infection but also a a precautionary measure.

The wound needs to be kept clean and free of debris. I would suggest washing the area with a diluted benidine solution and then apply topical antiobotics such as neosporin at least 2 times a day.

I sincerely hope your little Midget will be allright.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yeahhh...time to start looking for a more experienced, sensible, qualified Veterinarian.


The remaining deficit of the old injury/wound, should fill in nicely on it's own, and merely needs to be kept clean and or to also have a light application of the Silver Sulfadiazine every other day.


I am amazed the Dove survived Anaesthesia.

Nor was anaesthesia necessary for that procedure, or merely removing a scab, which could have been done gently, with only a little more time or prep, and with no significant discomfort to the Dove.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

I sure hope Midget makes it! It is so sad he has to go through this. You are doing good, but I'm sure it is hard watching him go downhill after all you have done to save him. We are all hoping he gets better!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Kams, 


Would you give us some further details of the Doves symptoms presently?


Poops and Urates...appetite/drinking...postures or stance...overall mood of their appearence...and anything else you can think of?



Also, what do you have in the way of Medicines on hand?


Phil
Lv


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Poops and urates look normal, however bird isnt seeking out food and water. it is staying stationary in one position, standing a little crouched down (not on its hocks though) with its feathers all fluffed up. I have cleaned the wound now quite a few times with normal saline and packed it with intrasite gel - due to the main wound over its leg, the gel is squeezed out every time it takes a step! so I have to apply it quite often in order to maintain the wound bed as moist -probably 4 times a day based on how often i had to do it last night. 

um, i dont have much in the way of vet prescribed drugs at the moment, as the vet said I would not need to put the bird on any systematic antibiotics - he was of the opinion that the bird was going to heal well without them. 

however I DO have keflex (cephalexin capsules 500 mg) and ceclor (cefaclor monohydrate 375 mg) and as my mum is a doctor she could write me out scripts for whatever the best drugs are. just let me know what it needs and ill get them.i cant even find the silvazine at the moment! 

the main reason i am concerned is that this dove has been anesthetised twice now - and after the first time it was still eating and drinking. Now it isnt and isnt moving away from me as usual. to me that suggests it is really sick. 

i know you guys really need a good picture of the wound so that you can give your opinion. I will head off now and go and get a camera, and some more intrasite gel and neosporin gel.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

This bird needs to be put on a broad spectrum antibotic. Either Cypro or Baytril. The dosage should be determined by her weight. Can you weigh her?

It is most important that Midget does not get dehydrated. If Midget is not eating or drinking at all on her own, you will need to first re-hydrate her and then start with some hand feedings.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i am a little concerned having carefully read what everyone has said on pigeon talk! the vet i take midget to is a highly experienced avian vet. i thought i would go by his advice - he has multiple racing lofts and is a pigeon fanatic - i thought following whatever advice he said would be good  he said that he 'lightly' anesthetised midget as it would be less painful that way - but the way that midget has pulled through this time i am concerned by. 

I have been offering midget water, and, also gently syringe feeding him a small amount of water. I began the water regiment last night, and this morning hand fed him seeds. he is sitting approximately 2 metres under a radiant heater for warmth. if the seed does not get absorbed well i will instead use some hand rearing formula. 

midget was on clavulox as you indeed suspected pdpbison - this came and finished about a week ago now. 

the only reason i think this vet may have told me midget did NOT need antibiotics is to save money - he only charged me 45 dollars for the consult, debridement and antibiotics - i think he felt bad i had already spent so much money on midget, what with the previous surgery and all. However, i dont think that was a great idea if it is going to compromise midgets health! 

which antibiotic should i get my mum to prescribe guys? i need a specific chemical name, and human commercial strength so i can get it prescribed - whatever the human equivalent is of cipro or baytril. I will get the silver sulphazine and triple antibiotic cream this afternoon.

i am very disappointed that my vet did not prescribe oral antibiotics post this surgery - at the end of the day i would have preferred to pay more, and know lil midget woud be ok - rather than have a 'kind' gesture which leaves midget suffering - he also has not been prescribed any pain relief. 

I know prior to the first anesthetic midget weighed 140 grams

i have bought a camera, charging its battery now, photos to follow soon


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm very sorry about midget. If midget were in my care, I would get him back on the clavlox immediately...same dose for at least another 7 days, maybe 10.
If you chose to go with baytril, there is a dosing chart in the resource section. I'm sure your mom and figure out the correct dose based upon his weight. I'll go get the link to that chart and post it for you.
If midget isn't eating, you absolutely must hand feed him. He needs his strength to fight this infection and he also need to be hydrated. Do you know how to hand feed?

I understand you may have reluctance to challenge the vet that treated him but I have a difficult time understanding why midget was just given a little anesthetic. I also have a hard time understand why you weren't given any pain medication to give him.
Is there another vet in your area that you can take him too?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Baytril dosing chart.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/handy-baytril-tablet-liquid-dosage-chart-16368.html


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Kmaz, I completely agree with Charis.....Put Midget back on the same dosage of Clavulox that the original Vet prescribed for atleast 7/10 days.

Make sure you continue to keep her hydrated and if she is still not eating on her own I would begin syringe feeding some baby bird formula.

Please post a picture so we can advise you better on the wound treatment.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, Cipro is the basically the human equivalent of Baytril, so you could get your Mum to prescribe some Cipro for you. The current recommended avian dosing for Baytril is 20mg/kg once a day and you could follow this for a dosing amount, but since Baytril has a longer half life than Cipro, the amount of time it takes for a drug to be eliminated from the blood to half its strength, I would go with twice a day dosing for the Cipro. For Midget's weight this means 2.8mg every twelve hours. If you need help turning tablets into a dispensable suspension, I would be happy to help you with that. By the way, the Keflex you have is quite a good drug as well for soft tissue infections.

Good luck with Midget,

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

really, really appreciated charis, but all the vets are closed here at the moment - as far as i am aware baytril is only useds in animals? 

i can easily get norfloxacin...is that safe for use with pigeons


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

okay guys i can easily get clavulox oral, but not ciprofloxacin because it requires an authority. Or i can get the one mentioned in the previous post. I will definitely get some more clavulox, let me know if the norfloxacin is any good as well, and whether he should be treated on both. 

there is another vet, who i will try and book an appointment with tomorrow - they are only open for two hours on a sunday - it is past their hours for today. i will see how much the consulting fee is. i have spent about 500 on midget so far - so i am a bit short til i get paid next week! 

i dont know why midget hasnt recieved pain relief all along - again, if there is a human equivalent that would work well, im sure i could procure that...someone in midgets old thread mentioned aspirin..? 

midget is also poking his beak into the wound - not a great idea, i am sure. 

I have kept offering him water, i am going to wait a few more hours to see if the seed is digested before i give him any more seed or hand rear mix - (i can hand feed seed easily, less confident with formula feeding)


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

dobato if keflex is good, should i have midget on clavulox and keflex then? if you could give me an idea of the dosing for keflex i can start him on that straight away - and get the clavulox this afternoon


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

here is the link for the wound photos - i must say i am massively freaked out by the fact of the open wound being in such close proximity to the leg joint - and by whatever yellow thing that is cut within the wound. i am praying that it is not bone or tendon - i reckon it is tendon..

i feel like i have really let midget down - i thought that by taking him to one of the most respected pigeon vets in melbourne he would get the best treatment. i hate seeing him suffer in pain. i am not sure if he is not better off being put down. 

here is the link to the photos 

http://s906.photobucket.com/home/kamzi/index

tell me what you think guys


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, the dosing for Keflex would be 50mg/kg three times a day. So Midget would get 7mg every eight hours. It may be a good idea to get Midget started on some systemic antibiotics right away and switch to either the Clavamox or Norfloxacin later, as there would not be a conflict in doing this.

Norfloxacin is used in some medicines specifically made for pigeons, so it would be fine to use this, but like Cipro it has a shorter half life than Baytril and I would use twice a day dosing at the same suggested dosing, as mentioned before, of 20mg/kg.

At this point I don't believe it would be necessary to treat with two antibiotics, but I if I were going to add a second one, I would probably chose metronidazole on the off chance there is some sort of anaerobic bacteria also involved and the metronidazole would cover in this event.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, I had a look at the photos, please do get her started ASAP on the Keflex. If she were here, I myself would err on the side of caution and would add in metronidazole (50mg/kg, twice a day). I have used a silver cream in the past and found it to be excellent at preventing infection and bringing about what I felt to be rapid, clean healing, I would be using some of this over the wound as well.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i have given midget .3 ml of clavulox with the ratio being 125 mg/kg 

what do you think of the wound dobato


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kams,



I agree with the prior posters recommending immediate reinstatement of the systemic broad spectrum Antibiotic regimen...and, adding Metronidaolze to this.

If your mom can write a prescription for Cipro, go for the gusto with that...Baytril would be a good choice also.

If all you can muster is Clavamox or it's like, then use it till you can get the Other.


Provide a Heating Pad if you can, for positive warmth, Cage draped on three or even four sides...Heating Pad under a towell under half the cage bottom so she can choose as she likes.

Good hydration, as you are doing...


Had she done any throwing up?



Good luck!!


Phil
Lv


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i can give keflex as well, am a little nervous of under/over dosing as they are capsules with a strength of 500 MG per capsule.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

thanks for everyones positive wishes, the wound is just in a really really bad spot - honestly, i work with human wounds, and this one freaks me out. human ones dont, and i see some bad human wounds. 

is anyone able to give me an assessment of the wound? (given my vets assessment clearly sucked) 

as soon as my Bf is home i will attempt to get some metronidazle from my mum, more silver sulphazine -.i dont want to leave midget on his own. i have a bucket lode of intrasite gel, and lots of sterile dressing packs. the clavulox i gave was from midgets previous lot - i figured something was better than nothing for now


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

argh, i just saw your question about throwing up, phil. yes, once about an hour ago - what does that mean


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, the area of wound management is not one of my stronger areas, but as soon as I saw the photos my first thought was this bird need to be on antibiotics, like now. It really would be good if you could get some Flagyl/metronidazole to add in for her. I would just go with the Clavamox right now, that you just gave, but please confirm to me the strength, as it might be a good idea to do a "loading dose", where you give a larger initial first dose, to build up a rapid high concentration of medicine in the blood.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

the strength is 50 mg/ml of amoxycillin - midget got .3 of a ml


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...sometimes, during or following a systemic Antibiotic Regimen, they can develop some Candida issues, and, when high enough in their digestive system, this can cause Crop issues, loss of alletite, wilting, and throwing up, usually of Seeds which have been in there a while.

One may see a thin greyish white film on the poops.


This could be some of her problem now...or could be a problem, whether a renewed or evolving systemic infection is present, or not.


The image of the poop does look as if it suggests a thin netty sort of greyish white film on the poop proper.



As for accessing the Wound, this does look like it was indeed a nast injury, and deep enough to where, especially if there had been some skin missing or retracted, it would take a while to heal.

Just a little thin amount of the Silver Sulfadiazine should be fine, every other day, dabbed gently onto the wound area so all gets lightly covered.


Anyway...I hate to seem to be making any of this more complicated than it already is!

But, she may be having an evolving Candida trouble in her digestive system, and this will usually see them feeling just aweful, stop eating, mopey, standing still, and so on.

The usual recourse, ( which is fine to adminster during other Medicinal regimens...) would be 'Medistatin'...and it is very forgiving as for dosage...if ususally given every twlve hours for a few days.



Apple Cider Vinegar, prepared say as 4 or 5 Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water, with this solution then tubed in to the Crop at first...then used for mixing formula with ( or if they are drinking, then for their Water Cup)...can help this, or sometimes cure it...or, can be used untill 'Medistatin' proper is obtained.


Good results usually accrue fairly quickly with the Bird feeling better in half a day or a day, then improving from there.


This is common enough with Birds I work with, and I am usually on the look out for it, since it can happen later in or following Antibiotic courses, and if one does not know what it is, one is left wondering 'What is going wrong here?"


So...she may or may not have a Bacterial systemic infection somehow subsequent or incidental to her original injury...kinda hard to guess.


She strongly may indeed have a Candida problem, which is a common occurence following Antibiotic courses.



Phil
Lv


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i believe medistatin is the equivalent of nilstatin - i will add this to the list of medications for mum to prescribe - im on the phone to her at the moment, i hope she might be here within an hour or two


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, according to my dosing reference, the suggested dosing for Clavamox is 125mg/kg every 12 hours. This means that for Midget's weight she should get 17.5mg every twelve hours, you just gave her 15mg (.30cc/mL), I would be comfortable in suggesting you give her .10cc/mL (5mg) more of med.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

done. does anyone think this injury is survivable? and boy am i angry with the vet!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...no harm for her to be on Antibiotics as a prudence here with this.


And, the 'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' ( the latter is a powder, easy to mix, and tastes good to them...'Nystatin' I can not remember, but, I think it is a liquid, and no idea if it tastes good to them or not) or 'ACV' as soon as possible, till access to other Anti-Candida meds is secure.


I have had many presumed Candida/Yeast troubled Birds clear up well with only the ACV regimen, though I feel the Medistatin is more powerful and sure.



So, in summary, since it will do no harm, and may indeed do good -

Re-instatement of her broad spectrum systemic Antibiotic course.

Metronidazole added, for it's benifits in this sort of context.

ACV-Water, and is possible, 'Medistatin'.

ACV-Water aids Metrodizaole also, for it's efficacy to be even fuller/better.


Supplimental Warmth, Heating Pad under half of the Cage Floor, so she can elect according to her comfort.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kamz said:


> done. does anyone think this injury is survivable? and boy am i angry with the vet!


Kamz, when I first joined this site and in reading some of the old threads there have been some pretty terrible looking injuries, that with a lot of help, many birds did recover from. I hope Pidgey sees this thread as he is so very good at dealing with these kind of wounds. Just continue with the support, get Midget started on her meds again and let's take it a day at a time.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kams, 


Yes...her present travails and discomforts should be survivable.

The Wound certainly is, and she has managed pretty well under the circumstances with it so far, and should manage better now that you will be tending to it with the Silver Sulfurazone topical details.



The overuse of anasethetic for procedures which do not require it other than to make a limp patient for a cynical or indifferent Vet, may have caused a succession of quite heavy toxin or other processing de-toxinating loads to her Liver and other systems, which has left her at some temporary disadvantage but will clear out after a while.

Good hydration will help this and everything else, of course.

I have had many occasions of Birds with nasty wounds some fresh, some old and infected and skinn all thick and shrunk far back and so on, where, I merely hold the Bird gently, as my Vet does the Suturing for the ones suturable ( after I or he does whatever preceding debriding and so on) and the Bird never minded one bit, other than usually looking better instantly for the cleaning and suturing being done.

Old retracted wounds usually can not be sutured, and one deals with these more or less as you are with this one now.

Anyway...


"Yes", she can survive this, if for now, she is feeling poorly.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

thank you guys very much. midget is sitting on a hot water bottle with three towels between him and the hot water bottle. the hot water bottle takes up half of the container he is in - the other half is free of heat. The cage is covered on three sides by a dark cloth, with enough holes for air to circulate. 

i will get the apple cider vinegar when i get the meds - i am kinda reluctant to leave midget in the room alone. 

what is sad, is that before i took him in for the last operation, he was flying away from me! I had so much trouble catching him, although his wounds were manky, he seemed very lively was eating ect. And now.... : (

are human rehydrating solutions appropriate for birds?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

"He"...( ooops, sorry...Lol...)

Human rehydration solutions...Electrolyte Solutions, far as I know, would be the same as for any other Species of Animal.

Well...hmmmmmmmm...look at his Poops...closely...is there indeed a thin whisp of sort of netty, greyish white film on them?

When he threw up, was it Seeds? Formula? any green or goo?


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

it was only water he threw up, not seeds. i looked at the poo and there looks like there is a greyish 'net'


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If it was me, I would begin treating for Candida now...ACV-Water, or 'Medistatin' soon as you can get some.

Maybe go easy with the food or formula for the next 12 hours...or, feed small meals, and see how it goes...if he can hold them down, then great.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You know, this may only be a Candida/Yeat problem he is suffering, and not a systemic infection.

Just hard to guess from here.


Not saying you should not treat for possible systemic infection(s)...just saying, to my experience, the symptoms we are being told of, could be found in a Candida/yeast issue, where no other problems are present.

Prudence of course would recommend treating for systemic infection in your instance, since there is a recent history, and conditions of the Wound having been left with no topical antibiotics for that period, where a systemic infection remains a possibility.

What progression did you notice time-line and time wise, going from flying, feeling good in spite of any wound issues, eating well, and, having the recent procedure of scab removal and whatever else, onto where you could see they were feeling poorly? Not eating, standing still and so on?


How many poops to-day? ( or last 24 hours, say? )


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

*i have medications!*

okay - i went to the pharmacy and am all stocked up with medications. 

I have a NEW bottle of clamoxyl suspension - concentration strength 400 mg of amoxycillin /57 mg in 5 ml 
this formulation has potassium clavulanate EQUIVALENT to calulanic acid 57 mg - is that substitute ok in birds? i calculated that the bird would need .21 mls or 21 ccs

i also have flagyl liquid suspension - metronidazole benzoate 320 mg/5 ml equivalent to metronidazole 200 mg/5 ml - based on my calculations that would equate to 17.5 cc? for a bird weighing 140 grams 

flamazine to apply to the wound 2nd daily 

and mycostatin drops which contain nystatin B.P 100,000 units 

i am going to hold off on the nystatin til i can figure out how much, the flamazine i should be able to figure out 


if you guys can confirm these ingredients and dosage before i go ahead that would be great


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mycostatin is Nystatin...same thing...


I can not access my formulary right now.


If delaying on the Nystatin/Mycostatin, please consider to begin ACV-Water immediately...let it be his drinking water, and formula mixing water for the next five days.


Make formulas 'soupy' if tubing in...and I assume you would be tubing them in for now.

Maybe by this time to-morrow, or the day after, he will show some interest in Seeds, and, be able to hold them down also.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i have bought the ACV, and am mixing some with of "his" drinking water, and with hand rear mix ect. it wouldnt surprise me if "he" was actually a "she" seeing as even when it was most healthy it was quite quiet. 

time line wise, midget was fine, if not eating as well prior to the second surgery. he was flying away from any hands in his cage, grooming himself. 

Post surgery, his poops are now greyish, lesser in number - they were greener before. I think you may be spot on the money with the thrush, or candida. thank you all for your help. 

my apologies for seeming a bit flustered. midget seemed to be doing so well prior to this last surgery - and i am not used to looking after such a sick bird. but i figured he deserved a chance seeing as he came to our doorstep.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

okay - i went to the pharmacy and am all stocked up with medications. 

I have a NEW bottle of clamoxyl suspension - concentration strength 400 mg of amoxycillin /57 mg in 5 ml 
this formulation has potassium clavulanate EQUIVALENT to calulanic acid 57 mg - is that substitute ok in birds? i calculated that the bird would need .21 mls or 21 ccs

*Kamz, could you please clarify that the new suspension has 400mg of amoxicillan and 57mg of clavulanate potassium suspended in 5mL of liquid, or 91.4mg of pure med per/mL.*

i also have flagyl liquid suspension - metronidazole benzoate 320 mg/5 ml equivalent to metronidazole 200 mg/5 ml - based on my calculations that would equate to 17.5 cc? for a bird weighing 140 grams.

*This metronidazole would be 40mg of pure med per mL, so you would give Midget .175cc/mL (your calculation was good, just the decimal in the wrong place). *

flamazine to apply to the wound 2nd daily 

*OK, good.*

and mycostatin drops which contain nystatin B.P 100,000 units

*This is B.P 100,000 units/per mL, correct, if so you would give .15cc/mL every 12 hours.*

i am going to hold off on the nystatin til i can figure out how much, the flamazine i should be able to figure out 


if you guys can confirm these ingredients and dosage before i go ahead that would be great.

I hope this helps, please confirm on the Clavamox.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, I had a look around and it seems there is a standard children's suspension of Clavamox at the 400/57 proportion you mentioned, co-amoxiclav 400/57 (Augmentin '400/57 SF'). I was unfamiliar with this 400/57 proportioning, that's why I asked you to confirm the strength, no need to do that now. Again, your calculation was correct for this Clavamox suspension, you will give Midget .21cc/mL twice a day of this med.

Please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

lol i thought that cc was a fraction of a ml...rather than equivalent to a ml! it all makes sense now  thanks for checking the calculations, and helping me work out what to give with the nilstat - i gave midget a guestimated dose of the nilstat before - but i would have been underdosing rather than over if anything based on the calculation you gave me. 

quick update before we all go to bed: 
i decided that since midget was looking so ordinary that we would group the wound dressing together with the the medication, ACM and hand rear mix. and combine it all together rather than keep stressing him out separately. following this, midget actually was just sitting with his eyes closed - so i am guessing he is pretty sick. we will start the metronidazole in the morning rather than stress him all over again. 

we left him alone for a number of hours after this, to let him regain his strength. now he is sitting with his eyes open. i am just going to give him a last hot water bottle, to last him through the night. I hope that this helps gives him strength into the night. 


thanks again everyone, 

susie


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kamz said:


> lol i thought that cc was a fraction of a ml...rather than equivalent to a ml! it all makes sense now
> susie


Susie, 1cc=1mL, same thing, glad you have it straight in your mind now. Hope Midget feels a bit better in the morning.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

alright....midget is still alive today...not looking great though....just sitting feathers fluffed up. He has now had his first dose of metronidazole, and his second of clavulox (this time arounD). The urates in his poo have turned yellow this morning... but the grey sheen has gone from his poops - the poo part is now more vivid dark green.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

ok...i have done some research on this site regarding the yellow urates, and it seems that it would be prudent to not continue with the metronidazole. MIdget was checked for canker, and it seems metronidazole would only increase the damage to his liver now that his urates have turned yellow. 

Fingers crossed for midget.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

I'm so sorry--I wish Midget a speedy recovery.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, thanks for the update.

Right now it's really important that Midget be kept comfortably warm and be very well hydrated to continuously flush his system, use Pedialyte or equivalent to do this, or make up your own hydration fluid, one teaspoon of sugar, a good pinch of salt and a small pinch of baking soda (bicarbonate of soda) to 8oz (250mL) of water. I usually add meds to this fluid and I warm the fluid a bit before hand as well, a bird Midget's size could take about 2cc of this to add meds to. Keep his feedings smaller and not thick at all, this will effect the consistency of his droppings, but I would not worry about that right now, let's just try and get him past this hump.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

thanks guys i have rehydrating electrolyte solution for humans i will prepare this as you have instructed with the next lot of medications. 

midget has a fresh hot water bottle wrapped in many layers of towels to keep her warm from underneath, and a radiator heater above to give her/him (?) (cant help but give the poor bird a gender) warmth. midgets having some down time now for a few hours to help regain some strength - he has a nice dark, warm storage box covered on three sides with large holes drilled on the front for ventilation.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, the Nystatin you are giving him will cause yellow urates, but let's err on the side of caution and half his metronidazole down to 25mg/kg twice a day, a smaller dose, but still within guidelines, metronidazole is very well tolerated in pigeons/doves, I do not remember reading of harm caused by this drug, even at some very high doses fanciers use to treat their birds for canker with. Kamz, do you have a thermometer you could place next to Midget and get a reading of his ambient temperature, I just would like to make sure it is not too warm for him, probably isn't, but let's confirm.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kams, 


Yahhh...


Yellow Urates occuring immediately after beginning a Nystatin regimin, are probably not to be taken as suggesting Liver troubles or or infection troubles or Canker...even if possibly, sometimes, their system clearing out spent leucocytes could make for some yellowish urates...and so in context, I would think they may be attributed to the Nystatin Medicine and not to any sudden onset of new or evolving pathology.

I have never heard or or seen any instance where Metronidazole would occasion yellow Urates.

Rather, at least around here, 'yellow' Urates in various ways, may be taken as a sign of Canker...though some medicines or pigments in medicines or other can cause them to be yellowish, and this needs to be taken into acount so as not to confuse the two.


I have never seen any instance where Urates have become yellow overnight from any pathology issues...but instead, whether with Canker or other illnesses which can cause it, one sees a graduated progression of phases and of texture and consistency changes as the Urates become yellowish, liquidy, water-color-paint like or swirled in Spinach-Green Poop...taking quite a few days or weeks.


B-Vitamin suppliments can cause them to have yellowish Urates, overnight...I have seen that.


I did not see much for Urates in the poop images.

What had they been like recently?

That would be more germain for present concerns I think.


Dark vivid 'green' may be Bile, or just unusually green fecal matter with some extra Bile maybe.

You can test it and see, by smearing some onto a sheet of white paper. If it behaves like a gellied Paint, and has no fibre in it, and has a serious pigment quality like Paint would, it is Bile...if the color when smeared is thin, and there a fair amount of fibre present, then it is merely green poop, and with some Antibiotics, this can happen and is no big deal.

Bile with no fecal matter, would suggest starvation, which seems improbable, given the poops of merely a day or so ago...so, the 'green' ( unless the Paper Smear Test says otherwise, ) is likely just an incidental of the Antibiotics being started...and or a higher than usual Bile aspect to otherwise good-enough poops, under the circumstances...resultant of the Antibiotics or other meds.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

ok..thank you very much for the information pdpbison. I have rechecked the latest poos, and i hate to say that they really match your description for bile - green, gel like spaghetti strands with no fibrous matter. the freshest poo is actually more of a brown-orange. 

what i think is happening is that somehow the crop is not emptying anymore. i checked the crop (which I should have been doing more often) and it seems there are still seeds in there from a couple of days ago. 

is there anything i can do to get rid of them. I have been now only giving midget tepid (not hot) human electrolyte solution with ACV

i can take him back to the vet first thing tomorrow morning. if you guys have any suggestions i will carry them out in the meantime


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

should i keep giving the clavulox if that may have caused the candida issue in the first place? i reckon his primary problem is the slow crop/thrush right now? he is being kept nice and warm - i tried using a digital thermometer but it doesnt work. he has access to get away from the heat if needs be. - and the hot water bottle is wrapped in many layers of towel. just worried about the small number of poos/brown poo part. hope the electrolyte solution will keep him going. 

i am going to take him back to the vet first thing tomorrow - hopefully he can help me evacuate the crop?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kamz,


I don't know...could be his issue is Thrush/Candida/Yeast troubles, and, not a systemic bacterial infection.

Possibly your Vet could render an opinion.


ACV-Water for drinking and or formula also, during Antibiotic courses, can alleviate liabilities to Candida and related.


Small number of poops...meaning? ( How many normal size poops in what time frame?)


Generally, there is no harm to the Bird for having a course of Antibiotics.

If the Antibiotic happens to reduce or eliminate spectrums of their digestive floura and fauna, this can sometimes lead to the remaining spectrums assuming unusually selective favor, and getting too numerous or numerous, where, this then in itself becomes an illness or disease requiring attention and correction, pending the Bird ( or any other animal, including people ) getting their system back to normal again.

The Nystatin should take care of this, and, also the ACV-Water will aid...


Unless his Crop is not passing food, and is built up spoiling food in it, there should be no need to evacuate the contents of the Crop.

Is his Crop not passing food?


Phil
Lv


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

the crop is most definitely not passing food - midget just vomited when we tried to give him his evening meds - more because he was struggling against our hands which caused pressure on his crop which made him vomit :/ 

i can feel seed inside his crop..i am sure it must have at least been there for 18 hours 

i will take him to the vet in the morning, because this i have no experience with this. also, if midget is going to continue suffering and not getting better i am not sure i am doing him more good than harm. he has only passed two poos in the past 4 hours?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, it would be best to have a vet have a look at Midget, it is quite easy to test for Candida/yeast problems and he can deal with any seeds in the crop.

Yes, with post antibiotic therapy yeast problems can arise, treatment with drugs from the tetracycline family has the most associations with this happening, but I myself have never had a yeast infection occur in any of my birds I have treated with antibiotics, yes, yeast is a possibility, but does not necessarily have to follow AB treatment.

I would continue with the Clavamox, as looking at the wound, I think right now the real danger is letting a bacterial infection take hold. The Nystatin and ACV will deal with any yeast problems. You can add a little honey to his hydration fluids/meds for extra energy, not every time as the honey will change the nature of the fluid from hydration to more "food" like in nature and will not hydrate the same way but "feed". Exactly How much ACV are you giving and how are you measuring it and is it the organic kind with "mother wort"?

I know from experience when they are treated with lots of hydration, liquid food, and meds the look, consistency and nature of their droppings goes out the window, so while it is still good to examine them you just can't put the same diagnostic emphasis on them as under a normal diet and conditions.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kamz said:


> the crop is most definitely not passing food - midget just vomited when we tried to give him his evening meds - more because he was struggling against our hands which caused pressure on his crop which made him vomit :/
> 
> i can feel seed inside his crop..i am sure it must have at least been there for 18 hours
> 
> i will take him to the vet in the morning, because this i have no experience with this. also, if midget is going to continue suffering and not getting better i am not sure i am doing him more good than harm. he has only passed two poos in the past 4 hours?


Kamz, I have had a bird in a similar state where crop flushing, sub-Q fluids and metoclopramide (Reglan) got him back on track. The vet can also give Midget injectable antibiotics to bypass his GI system, so do get him in. Two poos in the last four hors while not ideal, means things a still moving. Make you are giving him no more than 2cc at a time, if the area around the crop is inflamed or infected it will effect the way the crop moves/pass things down to the pro-ventriculus and ventriculus, the vet should be able to determine if this is what is going on.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

thank you dobato, i found that very reassuring. I dont believe it was organic, the brand was skipping girl apple cider vinegar, i followed the recommendations of 4 tablespoons per gallon in making the ACV solution (just made less though at a time). 

i'll make sure i keep going with the ACV, nystatin and clavamox, and packing the wound with intrasite, and the silvazine. and keeping a warm, dark, quiet environment for midget. the rest will be up to midget - he/she has survived this long, if he can survive a little bit longer..definitely a fighter.. 

kamz


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, please stop the ACV you are using right now 4 tablespoon a gallon of non-organic ACV vinegar, non organic does not usually have the mother and I find it to be much more acidic, will be very upsetting and hard on the GI track, this could be the source of the problems that are now occurring with Midget. Get only organic and you can either make up a gallon, I would not go as high as 4 tablespoons right now as Midget is on Nystatin, 2 tablespoons should be fine, or you can add 2 drops to every 10cc/mL of liquids, which is what I do, this works out to about 2 tablespoons a gallon.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

thank you dobato am stopping right now


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

look i just have to talk about the poos once more..the poo part is now not green colored or brown colored - its kinda pale skin color? lol i know its not meant to mean anything at the moment..but does the lack of bile mean the liver is not functioning? 

i think however, things are starting to move again though (thankfully) 

lots more poos. midget actually tried to drink again on his own which is good. he is also trying to groom himself - which involves picking at the wound (ewww...he picks off the intrasite gel and silvazine) I'll have to redoo it this morning

i figure i could wait until the crop is empty, and until the poos normalise, before i restart formula. i believe the crop has actually gone down somewhat - but i can still feel seeds in there - but much less. some seeds have been digested. 

should i still take him to the vet? i am not so much concerned about cost, as the fact the vet is an hour drive away - that cant be great for midget at the moment.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kamz,


Ohhhh, sorry I had not thought to stipulate that the Vinegar should be Natural, Organic, Unfiltered type, such as 'Braggs'. I get so used to some things, I become complaiscent.

Pressure ( within reason! ) on a half full healthy normal Crop would not tend to cause any Throwing Up...but if the Crop is already sensitive and inclined to Throw Up because of Candida/Yeast related inflamation/infection, then it could indeed.

Injectible Meds are the best recourse if a Crop is slow or not passing...since Oral adminstrations would lag or take too long to get through.

Reglan may well aid in reducing inflamation...for the Crop to pass it's contents easier.


I have seen quite a few instances of Candida/Yeast problems where the Bird had not been on any Antibiotics, as well as seeing some instances where they were...so it can happen as it happens, and may or may not have anything to do with the Antibiotic course a Birds was just on or is on.

Though as Kayrn said above, it is usually the Tetracycline family which is the most liable to occasion Candida/Yeast problems.

I would say to with-hold Seeds for the next four or five days...feeding thin Formula only...scheduling meals according to how the Crop is passing it.

Unsweetened Juice or concentrations of certain Fruits can be very nice to add to formulas - Black Cherry, Elderberry, Goji-Berry...and these can aid in their system clearing out built up toxins.

Usually, Health Food Stores have these in small Bottles.


What have the Urates been looking like?


Slow or Static Crops, when no foreign object is present, and when not from contusion, will tend to be from either Canker, or, Candida related.

The latter, one may see the thin, possibly 'netty' greyish white film on the fecal matter...as we paused to consider a while back...and which indeed did appear to be present.

Canker has many subtle and some not so subtle symptoms, and these are not always consistent or pronounced enough for any easy call to happen.


Canker also can sometimes begin to opportune following or during a course of medicines for something else, or in any situation where the Bird's system is weak or run down or has suffered privations or prolongued stress.


Anyway...let us know what have been seeing for the Urates...



Phil
Lv


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Im a just about to put up some new photos of midgets poos. to me the urates are very pronouncedly yellow, but the pastel component is still quite evident. the poo part, i can definitely see fibrous matter, (perhaps not as well digested as before) but i suppose that means something is going through. 

i will continue electrolytes, and wait until i cannot feel any solid matter left in the crop before i begin the hand rear mix. 

http://s906.photobucket.com/home/kamzi/index

if you go to the 'poo splat' albums, these are last nights/this mornings poos
the 'default' album of poos are those just prior to the nystatin treatment beginning. i think they show the grey web nicely


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kamz, 



The Urates prior to beginning the Nystatin? Did they seem to be being made in mornal amounts for the amount of poops?


I am thinking he may also have been a little dehydrated there for a while, which is why I am asking.


Poops normally are of tiny fiberous material...the better the Gizzard is masticating ( usually, with Grit) the more fine the fiberous aspect tends to be, even to where it is hardly visible as such at-a-glance.


But as far as any very thin, possibly 'net like' greyish white film, on the poops as a sign of Candida/Yeast troubles...one would expect this poop film feature to diminish and to be gone about now or very soon anyway, with the ACV-Water having been done a little, and, moreso then, with the Nystatin.


Double Check your Nystatin dose...just to be sure.



You can also use the Watered down Fruit Juices I mentioned ( meaning, add them to the Water you are giving him), in lieu of electrolytes proper by now...these would have nourishment in them, they will not compromise rehydration at this phase, while still being truely Liquid.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i cant see any greyish film on the current lot of poos. the current lot of poos are not greyish in color with a net. perhaps you were looking at the wrong pictures? the ones titled poo splat are the current ones  

i believe that midget may have recieved less than optimal fluids on the day of the surgery - i dont believe the vet gave him fluids during the time i left him there (4 hours) - but since then it has been hydration, hydration, hydration. i have been probably been offering him the electrolyte solution every few hours (putting his beak in it) - and he has appeared to be drinking it well (some times really actively sucking it up). 

i am just about to take him to the vet now for his appointment. Fingers crossed midget makes the trip - it is a different vet, so hopefully that will help in figuring out what is going on definitively. 

he does seem a little more lethargic today - sitting/standing with eyes half closed. (sign of dehydration? :/) am worried because he aspirated some vomit late last night:/ 

the nilstat dose, i just went with what was suggested on the site here - .15 ml, or .15 cc. bd


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz,

Phil gave some good suggestion on adding in some juices to detoxify and to add nourishment.

Like I said before, with the liquid diet he is on and the meds, it's really hard to read too much into the droppings right now. The only thing is I think is that they should actually be a little more "watery looking" with all the fluids he is on, so perhaps he was a little dehydrated.

The .15mL for the Nilstat is a correct dose, so don't worry there. If he did some how aspirate a bit of food, while not good, at least he is on antibiotics right now, that may act prophetically to help prevent the event of a bacterial respiratory infection setting in. Keep him well hydrated, we need to keep his system flushed, keep fluids and feedings small 2-3cc at a time.

Good luck at the vet, please keep us informed,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kams, 



Oh yeah...I was just yammering on how present poops will be different now with the meds...I saw the images of the now poops and the prior to now poops...


Have Vet do a Crop Swab for testing for Canker-Trichomoniasis...and Candida, though the latter by now will have dimished a great deal for the Nystatin, but, since both are easy fast Tests, may as well.


I have not used Nystatin, to have seen what it seems to do to the Urates before.


Glad he is drinking well...keep on with that of course! Fluids are always good when one is sick and or on meds...keeps the Kidneys flushed...


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

ok, bit of an update. midget is now at the avian vet place in a brooder box, he has been given baytril injection, an increased dose of nystatin (you were spot on the money about that phil). the vet weighed midget and found that he was much lighter. it seemed that you were also right about him being dehydrated - . the vet suspected that he simply was not absorbing anything he was given and it was just sitting in his crop. a crop flush test showed lots of flagellates?

midget was also found to have salmonelosis in a wing elbow joint. he is now recieving an appropriate antibiotic for that. 

he is now being kept overnight - when i rang just before the vet closed they said cautiously that he was stable. 

fingers crossed guys, hopefully the increased nystatin dose will allow him to start absorbing- he really is critically unwell in my opinion though. he is at least in good hands that have more experience than i - if he makes it to the morning, i think he will have a good chance. 

thanks everybody once again for all your assistance, and I will let you know what the outcome is


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kamz, 


I forgot where you are located?


'Flagellates' might be a way of saying Protozoans...and if so, possibly the Trichomonas of 'Canker'.

Can you ask your Veterinarian to clearify this? And, are they familiar with 'Canker' or Trichomoniasis illness?


Canker can cause a Crop to slow when an infection is occuring between it and the Stomach, or can cause inflamitory debris in the passageways of the digestive System...the Metronidazole which various members had mentioned, which you had begun adminstering I think, would address this, if it can get through.


Sadly, no one seems to have an Injectible Anti-Protozoal...though Metronidazole is available in an 'IV' form.

Small Birds of course have really tiny Veins, so...dunno...


That's always a problem, if a Crop is slow, and, one needs to treat, or has suspicions which recommend treating, for the very illness which are possibly compromising the passage of foods and liquids from the Crop. 

I do not know what other Flagellates one might find in a Dove or Pigeon, other than those of Canker, being the Trichomona Protazoans.

The Nystatin Candida matter - since the Candida is usually mostly in the Crop, though it can be further down also, contact with the Nystatin ( or ACV-Water, ) will take care of it, thus letting successive doses also pass better, to ammend any infestations deeper or further in the digestive system.

The Nystatin is not absorbed by their Body, merely staying in and passing through their digestive system, and does not make any load or issues for their Liver or Kidneys or other, so it is an easy thing for them, no strains.


I forgot where you were at with the Metronidazole?


Anyway...ask your Veterinarian about that - the 'Flagellates', and whether they may represent the Trichomonas we also know as Canker/Trichomoniasis.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, you did the right thing getting him into the vet, sounds like they are making good progress at getting Midget stable and past this critical time for him, I will say prayer for his improvement.

I am glad to hear he is now on injectable Baytril, this will cover both for any soft tissue infection and treat for salmonella as well. Phil is right about what he says about flagellates might be a way of saying Protozoans. Flagellating pathogens found in our birds are protozoans, the most common one being Trichomonas gallinae, which causes canker and Hexamita, which causes Hexamitiasis and Giardia which causes Giardiasis. I would most likely think that it would be canker, as the other two are more rare to find, metronidazole is used to treat for all three.

The slow crop could be a combination of bacteria, canker and inflammation so your little Midget right now is in the right place, as he does need intensive care at this time, thank you for providing it for him.

Please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...and the Reglan...if it is still a part of the present course...might help in easing presumed inflammation incidental to infection issues occurng in the Crop to Stomach passage, or further down even...

All the little Beaks here, and me, are sending our well wishes to Midget!!! Big Kisses, too...


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

just thought i would let you guys know.. and repeat my most profuse thanks for all the help in caring for midget over the weekend...that midget has passed away this morning at the vet following again vomiting up his crop contents. THe vet thinks that he probably aspirated some of the contents and then died. He hadnt digested any of the contents of his crop from the day prior 


The vet was quite convinced in retrospect that there were other disease processes which had been going on prior to the cat wound itself (would have been nice to have them picked up earlier though! :/) 


Just a big thanks guys. i hope that midget is now finally at peace, free to fly the skies, free from any pain and suffering.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

Dear Kamz, I'm so sorry. Poor little thing, Midget sure was a fighter. My heart goes out to you at this time of sorrow. You did such a good job, trying to save him. I'm sure Midget is flying the skies in peace.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kamz, 




I am so sorry.


I was really emotionally involved in his progress, challenges, and hoped for recovery...tossing and turning last night, brooding on what else one could think of or try.


You did and also saw to, a really fine go of it in every way.

So much good input in your thread also form the members here, too.


Variations of this wider syndrome happen with Birds I get in also, and the problem of an ill and or injured and ill Bird, often having suffered privations, Cat or Dog mauled or not, sometimes evolving a too slow or non passing Crop to boot, is a combination of things then, which can be quite difficult to resolve, or in practice, may not tend to be resolvable by any means I know of, if the blockages have progressed too far or too fast for when noticed, to respond well enough to what meds can get through.

Not all the meds one needs for things like this are available in injectible forms.

Indeed, any Bird we may find or be given, who has survived or escaped a predation scenario...often, the Bird was ill prior to the Dog or Cat having got them...which is largely why the Dog or Cat got them...and or additionally, they can acquire further illness for their immune system having fallen in vigor in dealing with their initial infection and privation woes


If their Immunolgical condition is too low, scores of endemic or opportunistic things can begin to well and overtake them...making it all so much more complicated and dicey or impossible.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am sorry to hear about your bird for it is always heartbreaking and you did the very best you could to save its life...He's in bird heaven now....c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamz, I am so very sorry to hear this news about Midget, please accept my deepest condolences.

Like Phil, I have been brooding on this, especially after the news that he, in all likelihood, had a canker infection. When you first mentioned that he had yellow in his urates, canker was one of the first things that popped into my mind, but I dismissed this because he was being seen by a vet and assumed any canker would have been found earlier by them and looked for an alternate explanation. When I recommended adding in metronidazole, again, canker was not a consideration, but because I was concerned about covering for anaerobes. This really hurts because I feel this bird could have survived his injuries with correct earlier treatment for his infections along with more hands on after-treatment prescribed for his injuries. You did all you possibly could for Midget and trusted in the experts you first took Midget to, but it seems that, for whatever reason, they let us down.

Thanks for all you did for this little guy, sending prayers and healing thoughts your way,

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I think that I will be quite disturbed by midgets treatment for some time. I just wish I had the experience, and knowledge, that I could have been a better advocate for midget during his/her (?) treatment. 

I think part of the problem may have been that midget did not get the same vet treating him consistently throughout his time.

Thank you guys for your support throughout - midget would have had no chance without you guys. it must have been really frustrating being so far away, and yet aware, that you could probably figure out what was going on if you were only there. 

I really cant say thanks enough for the support I have received here from Dobato, Charis, phil and all the pigeon talk members that contributed. Really, I cant thank you guys enough! I just wish the outcome was the one that midget deserved, and that you all worked so hard for. 

Susie.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry...was trying to expand on a few things, got too wordy...so I deleted.

The upshot, was that for any given Bird's injury or illess situation, there can be many things to deal with or bear in mind and resources to bring to bear which may exceed those available of any particular individual involved.

Between a sincere interested care giver, a decent-enough Vet, and the good people here, each contributing what the others may lack, or all overlapping as they may, there are three vectors of inupt and overview, where, such a Bird has about the best possibilities possible in the World as it is.

Realistically, few Vets will have had any experience living with their Patients, through the phases of the patient's convelescence and recovery.

This prevents the Vets from understanding things which can or do involve the larger process and management of the Bird's condition, and, the liabilities possible for their condition to have for complications.

We could find some fault with the two Vets you had relayed your experience with...but, they are typical Vets, and not sensitive nor experienced care givers.

They deal with an endless stream of brief presentations, hasty or perfunctory procedures as abstrations from a larger whole they do not experience, they mean well, and they are in their own 'world' in a way, just getting through another day, putting on a friendly face as need be, and, they do not acquire the wider or larger or deeper experience which being a care giver actually responsible for the larger recovery process being managed, would provide, to learn from.

They do not know what they may have missed, to learn from it, for want of follow-ups, and want of being in a position to ever know how things turned out or to have any input for reviewing a case onging or done, let alone with informed-enough input, in what a particular case may have had going on, for revision or review to be meaningful.

Many are hard to talk with, or may resent anyone appearing to question them or show them up or to come off with ideas of their own or telling them how to do their Job, in effect.


Plus, it gets expensive, and fast, visiting a Vet or visiting in successive occasions for onging review or revision of condition and treatment.


It is all pretty delicate and tricky, really...dealing with Vets...requiring as much powers of observation, delicacy, patience, knowledge, sensitivity, experience, respect ( which does not pass into credulity ) and diplomacy, as dealing with Birds or Wild Birds themselves is, as individuals with each their own conditions or issues...as may be.


Like that...is what I wanted to say.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i would like to add i think that prehaps my previous words on the topic of midgets death were a little bit heated, so I have somewhat edited them as I do not think they were over emotional at the time  I will speak more to the vets and ask them to go through thoroughly what happened to midget. I was too upset at the time to go through things properly - and i think in my last statement i was a little unfair. I would have to say that the treatment I received at the 'most renouned' clinic in my country was empathetic, and compassionate and totally focused on midgets best interests. 

I think on reflection, the vets that treated midget did the best that they could given they do see such small snapshots of a bird, and can only judge what they see at that time. I am glad I am not in the position of being asked to treat birds that I have seen for 20 minutes - half an hour when so many conditions have so many similar symptoms. The vets only saw Midget a total of 3 times in 2 weeks. This was probably not often enough to be able to detect slight changes in an individual condition. I know from working in hospitals, that it is not possible to always know what is causing a particular state of illness in an individual at a particular point in time - nor necessarily in time for that individual. There are too many variables which aren't always obvious which affect birds AND human health - and im sure there are even more variables when the patient is a bird from the wild. 

My final 2 cents on this topic, 

Susie/Kamz


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