# blue indigo & blue archangels



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

here are pictures of the blues i promised to share. the one really dark one is a blue indigo. I don't think the two babies are, since they seem to have a very faint bar in the tail feathers.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)




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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Very pretty  I love the andalusian one.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)




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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Wait a minute. This means there ARE black archangels even if they are poor quality. You need spread to make andalusian.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Very pretty  I love the andalusian one.


which one is that? 

I think you told me the darker one is an indigo. You saw pictures of it before it molted though.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The bird in the first post. That's the parent, correct? Yes, the baby is indigo barless.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Wait a minute. This means there ARE black archangels even if they are poor quality. You need spread to make andalusian.


The black colored check is a grandson/granddaughter of my andalusion cock. thats the bird in the previous thread.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Wait a minute. This means there ARE black archangels even if they are poor quality. You need spread to make andalusian.


Thats a baby. its just been through its first molt. thats one you told me was a barless indigo. that's the brother/sister of the other two babies. Their parents are the copper andalusion cock and the dilute gold hen I have posted about before.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

So the very first bird is a baby? Either way, it is andalusian as well.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

But if you think its Andalusian, thats cool too. maybe those gold babies will molt into that color too. that would be really cool to see on a gold.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> So the very first bird is a baby? Either way, it is andalusian as well.


Yep its baby. Its just an older baby. probably about 5-6 months old.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

those are aunts/uncles to the dark check.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok so what are both of the other blue babies? they haven't been through their first molt yet, so they could change colors on us. they are def going gold though.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

just for clarification the photos showing the tail feathers are of both babies.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Should have mentioned pictures 1-5 are the same bird. the rest are of the two babies


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Talk about confusing. The standard says Andalusian is a modifier of indigo.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Wait a minute. This means there ARE black archangels even if they are poor quality. You need spread to make andalusian.


I thought the same thing when I saw the pic, Wonder if you should start a thread on the black in arch angel subject, as you say if andalusian is in the breed then spread must be aswell.... interesting....


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

chinbunny said:


> Talk about confusing. The standard says Andalusian is a modifier of indigo.


Andalusian is created when spread is added to heterozygous indigo. Technically I guess you could say that spread and indigo modify each other to create the andalusian look. Indigo has a few different expressions depending on the base colour and pattern, whether it is het or **** and whether spread is included, and maybe others I am not aware off.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Andalusian is created when spread is added to heterozygous indigo. Technically I guess you could say that spread and indigo modify each other to create the andalusian look. Indigo has a few different expressions depending on the base colour and pattern, whether it is het or **** and whether spread is included, and maybe others I am not aware off.


What is heterozygous indigo? 

The black is another baby. Its related to those birds. it didn't produce them. These are the birds that produced them. These same birds are also the grandparents of the black check(black in the pictures above). it came from a smokey gold(their son) mated to a copper black wing t pattern.I know the male(the Andalusian below) comes from a loft that produced some pretty rare and usual colors. There probably is some black in his background. I have no idea about the gold hen though. I bought her parents from a local breeder that only had gold blue wings of that color, that i know of. Though eh probably did have other colors that he didn't show. Its interesting that they produce for me. no two colors from each hatch have been the same till now. 










Gold hen is in the background. thats the smoke(dad of the check0 when he was a baby. 










Now the loft my Andalusian cock came from also produced colors like this. this was the hen I was going to originally mate him to to. Until he decided to scalp her one morning, and killed her. The original owner called her a copper head. i think she looked more like my smoke, even though hes a lot lighter, due to being gold. She was also a black wing. Wis he hadn't killed her. that color is really cool.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Colorpigeons.com also has pictures of jet black archangels.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok another question is that blue recessive red or copper? IRL its copper has a red cast to it. im talking about the bird in the first 5 pictures.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

chinbunny said:


> What is heterozygous indigo?
> 
> Heterozygous means one dose or one gene of indigo. I am no expert on the specific colours with archangels so cannot help too much but one thing I know is that to get a true andalusian there has to be spread/black along with indigo there somewhere


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Recessive red has nothing to do with the color. Just bronze (copper/gold).


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> chinbunny said:
> 
> 
> > What is heterozygous indigo?
> ...


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Here is what the standard says. 

The spread factor in true black Archangels alters the archangel bronze so that it appears somewhat different from that of a black wing T-pattern.

Does that mean a solid black body. could that be part of the reason why we are having a hard time iding the color of the darker bird?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

chinbunny said:


> NZ Pigeon said:
> 
> 
> > Then that means theres one in the background on the blues side in order to get that, since the line threw a black check when crossed to a copper blackwing. Right?
> ...


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

chinbunny said:


>


Chinbunny,
My suggestion would be to mate these birds to a barless blue, if the first bird is andalusian then you will breed some blacks. What I suspect you will actually produce is barless indigo and barless blue.
I think you have copper barless indigo and gold (pale) barless indigo.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

indigobob said:


> Chinbunny,
> My suggestion would be to mate these birds to a barless blue, if the first bird is andalusian then you will breed some blacks. What I suspect you will actually produce is barless indigo and barless blue.
> I think you have copper barless indigo and gold (pale) barless indigo.


Ok now I am confused again. You guys are sayiing they are indigos, but they are also andalusions, right? 

i don't have any barless blues to breed them to. If I have the money to do it, ill see if colorpigeons.com has soem in the spring. The only birds i can breedthem to is a silver(blue) modena bronze bar that may possibly carry toy stencil, and the dark check. i shoudl get some andalusions, or maybe even some barless blues out o fthem because he is so closely related to them. 

the standard says they are useful to breed to toy stencils too. Hopefully breeding one to the one who might bne carrier will help get me soem more toy stencils. Or at least modena wings. hopefully.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Also how care is this color of blue? 

I can probably get some spread blacks form vivagirl(color pigeons) since he also has those too.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

chinbunny said:


> Ok now I am confused again. You guys are sayiing they are indigos, but they are also andalusions, right?
> 
> i don't have any barless blues to breed them to. If I have the money to do it, ill see if colorpigeons.com has soem in the spring. The only birds i can breedthem to is a silver(blue) modena bronze bar that may possibly carry toy stencil, and the dark check. i shoudl get some andalusions, or maybe even some barless blues out o fthem because he is so closely related to them.
> 
> the standard says they are useful to breed to toy stencils too. Hopefully breeding one to the one who might bne carrier will help get me soem more toy stencils. Or at least modena wings. hopefully.


Indigo is the Gene that creates andalusian when the bird is also carrying spread, Spread creates Pure black birds on blue. Your Cheque is not black its blue. However as I said earlier you can pair this bird to anything and will get some andalusians, Blacks, Indigos and also whatever patterns are being carried underneath.


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