# inbreeding/line breeding



## bigmalley (Dec 6, 2011)

what is the difference in inbreeding and line breeding, and how is it benifit a breeder, i have heard of people intentionaly inbreeding their birds?? why?


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## Paragon Loft (Jun 27, 2009)

to me inbreeding is mating parents to sons and daughters,brother to sister,line breeding uncles to neace aunts to nephews,couzins to couzins ,someone else will correct me if im wrong and help u out .


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

they both about the same thing but if you going to line breeding them , this how it works you breed the father to the best daughter then best grand daughter etc if you want to keep a good blood line but you want to every 4th or 5th generation you want to off breed with a good blood bird that 's not related because if you just keep breeding on the same blood line the gene pool will become weak and you have defeats i did this to keep a good stain color guppy fish for 28 generation and they was super, until 911 came on my job location and lost them all because they was no electricity in the area for a week, i use to work 2 blocks away from ground zero


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

From what I've read you only do the inbreeding and line breeding if you have a super bird to start with. The thinking is that the closer a bird in breed to its family the genes are consintrated and then can be passed on to its offspring better with higher percentages. both good and bad genes can be passed so you can weaken a bird to a point by inbreeding, but the idea is to pass as many good things on . Once you have inbreed two familys you ready to cross the inbreed birds to get your super flyers. It may take years to get it right but remember this , inbreed for breeders and crossed birds for flyers. Most all super racers are crossed birds.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Line breeding is first stage. Building a family group. The birds are not related PER say. From there you are building say around a certion bird down the line creating the family group. Then as you start inbreeding 1 You start agin down the inbred line cousins aunts uncles grand parents great grand parents And yes father daughter. BUT father daughter mother son Are end stage as at that point you have gone tight in which you need to spread that breeding out To even a out side bird being brought into the family group.One really should not start going to father daughter mother son to soon. And select birds are the workable birds not just related birds.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think of it as line-breeding you are trying to obtain the traits of a family of birds and in-breeding you are working on traits of a specific bird. I like to work a few good close families of birds. I like breeding my best birds of one family with the best of another and then back. I have some older cock birds that I may breed with grand-daughters to solidify the blood a bit. Some line and inbreed for stock and out cross for racers. I like to fly everything.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

Rafael/PR said:


> they both about the same thing but if you going to line breeding them , this how it works you breed the father to the best daughter then best grand daughter etc if you want to keep a good blood line but you want to every 4th or 5th generation you want to off breed with a good blood bird that 's not related because if you just keep breeding on the same blood line the gene pool will become weak and you have defeats i did this to keep a good stain color guppy fish for 28 generation and they was super, until 911 came on my job location and lost them all because they was no electricity in the area for a week, i use to work 2 blocks away from ground zero


OMG all those lost guppies


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

hillfamilyloft, I have a brother and sister sure bet/golden matten that I bred the cock to one blood line a ''winner'', and his sister to another bloodline ''winner'', these two birds bred winners, so I took these two ''winners'' and bred back to each other witch makes them first ''cusins'', they bred me ''winners'' that flew better then them self. so after this breeding season I will bred son back to mom and fother back to dauther to get me some stock, and try to keep this blood moving. I hope I am heading in the right direction.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Lovelace said:


> hillfamilyloft, I have a brother and sister sure bet/golden matten that I bred the cock to one blood line a ''winner'', and his sister to another bloodline ''winner'', these two birds bred winners, so I took these two ''winners'' and bred back to each other witch makes them first ''cusins'', they bred me ''winners'' that flew better then them self. so after this breeding season I will bred son back to mom and fother back to dauther to get me some stock, and try to keep this blood moving. I hope I am heading in the right direction.


If you are winning, then you are definitely on the rite path!


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes, I am winning two birds out of three form this cousin mating won in club and combine. and there cousins also won races. This is my fifth year in the sport so I am still learning on the breeding part.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bigmalley said:


> what is the difference in inbreeding and line breeding, and how is it benifit a breeder, i have heard of people intentionaly inbreeding their birds?? why?


 This has been a topic which has been discussed many times on this forum before. Do a search on this forum for Inbreeding / Linebreeding as many hours of reading are available. Here is a more recent one : 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/s...t-of-breeding-58260.html?highlight=inbreeding

Line Breeding/Inbreeding is simply one of the tools in the fancier's tool box. However, as I have tried to point out in many of my posts going back to 2004, the "secret" of this tool is when to use this form of breeding. IMHO, all to often, it is employed too early and with the wrong birds. This tool can *Not *advance your colony of birds, it is more a way to maintain the genes of some very exceptional pigeons. It is a two edged sword, in that it will also maintain many of the things you don't want. The selection process becomes much more critical and important, when using these tools. Again IMHO, one in which the "typical" fancier is often unprepared, to deal with. 

The first critical step before one even considers pulling out this "tool", is one must first own a couple of "exceptional" pigeons in the first place. Inbreeding/Linebreeding will not bring this about by using "typical" pigeons. The reason is fairly simple, a pigeon rarely produces a racer better then him or herself. Pairing two related pigeons together rarely produces some brand new prototype. Best case, they produce something much more similar to the parents. The new exceptional prototype, comes from crossing two exceptional pigeons from exceptional but different lines together. A super which results from this crossing, is what can pull your colony forward and advance the family lines. This is my story, and this is what I believe to be the best path forward. Everyone may have a different view on this, but this is the path I have chosen, and only time will tell how close to the "truth" of the matter I am.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Warren,

Can you further and more specifically define the "exceptional" pigeon?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kastle Loft said:


> Warren,
> 
> Can you further and more specifically define the "exceptional" pigeon?


 Somewhere on this earth, there has to be the closest thing to the absoulute Perfect racing pigeon. Then like a race sheet, all the other pigeons of the world would fall in somewhere behind this Super bird. For the sake of limiting debate, let's just say this bird is not only a great racer, but from a breeding standpoint, he is above the rest of the world pigeon community. Then get a 100 pigeon guys together, and you can rest assured that some would debate that issue. But, for my purposes we will just pretend that everyone agrees, because the record is so outstanding. 

Now use the teleporter and port to your average everyday fancier. In theory, he or she also has a bird which when compared to all of their other birds, is exceptional compared to them. 

In this fanciers club, there will be a bird which belongs to one of these club member's which is exceptional compared to all of the other pigeons in this club.

Then one expands it to their Combine, Federation, perhaps a One Loft event, Country and then perhaps finally the world pigeon I started this thread with. Thus one man's cull can be another man's "Exceptional". 

So, I guess I can't really say what "exceptional " is in your loft. But, I suspect if you would produce 100 pigeons in 2012, you might produce 1 or 2 that is better then what you already have. At any rate, perhaps the top 1 or 2% ? Thus the "average" loft, will on average, produce a majority of very average pigeons. 

This I suspect, is why even the "Greatest" of the Masters, will still need on occasion to go outside their lofts, to acquire something which is better then what they own. But, I digress.....

For our purposes here, might I suggest that for most fanciers, being able to beat their fellow Club members and/or Combine members is what most would be satisfied with. So, if you want to beat your club members, I would seek out a pigeon which would be an "exceptional" Combine Winner/Breeder as an example. If you want to win on the Combine level then one would have to look further then just the birds within the Combine, perhaps an "exceptional" Federation or One Loft winner etc.

On a personal level, for me, one of the birds I acquired was imported from Holland. He was from outstanding stock and had won 8 prizes in 8 races againest thousands of pigeons. http://smithfamilyloft.com/PEDBont509.html
This bird in turn produced a hen which won numerous races and was awarded "Bird of the Year" in 2010. So, for my loft, this bird is "Exceptional" when compared to many of my other birds, so for 2012 I have paired this cock to his daughter which was the most exceptional pigeon on the club level. One of only a few such close matings for 2012.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Their was a great article on different kind of breeding in the December RPD.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

> For our purposes here, might I suggest that for most fanciers, being able to beat their fellow Club members and/or Combine members is what most would be satisfied with. So, if you want to beat your club members, I would seek out a pigeon which would be an "exceptional" Combine Winner/Breeder as an example. If you want to win on the Combine level then one would have to look further then just the birds within the Combine, perhaps an "exceptional" Federation or One Loft winner etc.


I think this is the most important thing to remember when looking for your star pigeons. 

It's all relative (no pun intended).


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

What's your opeion on this Warren, in my loft in 2009, 2010 and 2011 these two birds babies have won races, there cousins have won races, they beat every other bird in my loft, they were consistant at winning, the one's that did not win just keep coming home in other words they did not get lost. to me it seems they pass down their winning blood.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Lovelace said:


> hillfamilyloft, I have a brother and sister sure bet/golden matten that I bred the cock to one blood line a ''winner'', and his sister to another bloodline ''winner'', these two birds bred winners, so I took these two ''winners'' and bred back to each other witch makes them first ''cusins'', they bred me ''winners'' that flew better then them self. so after this breeding season I will bred son back to mom and fother back to dauther to get me some stock, and try to keep this blood moving. I hope I am heading in the right direction.


Sounds to me like you can work those crossings back to the original birds also. I have a bird Kahuna that has bred some exceptional birds. This year I want to solidify his genes. I am breeding from numerous children and grandchildren. Last year I crossed him into Mark's "54" blood. Very good birds. This year I am breeding him with my race winner, which happens to be his grand-daughter. My thoughts are to breed him to my best hens. One of these days he will be gone and I want a bird to replace him. My thoughts are soon all My birds will have his blood. My other cock "Ed" I am working with also. His sons breed exceptional birds ie the race winner I am breeding with Buzz. I am working to acquire as many sons of his as I can for the breeding loft. I am not sure how to work the in-breeding and line breeding with my toppers. But as long as I bring back winners and work them back into the foundation, I should get quality young birds. I may even breed the race winner with Ed being as it is also his grand-daughter. So many possibilities.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovelace said:


> What's your opeion on this Warren, in my loft in 2009, 2010 and 2011 these two birds babies have won races, there cousins have won races, they beat every other bird in my loft, they were consistant at winning, the one's that did not win just keep coming home in other words they did not get lost. to me it seems they pass down their winning blood.


 Sounds like you are on the right road.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Thanks Hillfamilyloft , I am trying to do as you said, I will also try linebreeding back to both birds that produce the best winners and cross them back to one another, to see if they do the same. Thanks again


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Thanks Warren


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Here is one of my road maps, you may not want to try this at home kids. I have to link to an older post, as I can't post the same image twice. As you will be able to see, this is a long term project. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=589245&postcount=22


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Lovelace said:


> Thanks Hillfamilyloft , I am trying to do as you said, I will also try linebreeding back to both birds that produce the best winners and cross them back to one another, to see if they do the same. Thanks again


I am no expert on the subject by any means. It just makes sense if you breed a bird with numerous partners and all the offspring do well, to breed those offspring together and to also bring back birds of the family to breed back to the foundation bird. Whether grand-child, steps etc. Right now I have four ingredients in the bowl. Four families per se of birds. The foundation cocks would be Kahuna, Ed, 801, and 5416. Not forgetting their hens. Right now I am throwing all the blood in the bowl to see what hits. I am establishing a second level of cock birds that are just as potent. Mainly children of the four. My goal is to have confidence in every box when it comes to breeding. Get to the point where you replace an old exceptional breeder with a race winner.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Here is one of my road maps, you may not want to try this at home kids. I have to link to an older post, as I can't post the same image twice. As you will be able to see, this is a long term project.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=589245&postcount=22


I like this map. I still think that a map with two exceptional pair would be nice to see. Maybe one with siblings of your best two pair mated together then crossed back in to the foundation etc. I think my biggest crutch is that I stick too much to the same generation. Now that I am on the third and fourth generation of birds breeding, I should work back to the foundation generation more. Now that the birds are getting older I may start putting them with younger birds. My foundation birds Ed and Charlotte have been together since day one. They are 04 birds. Hard to break up a good thing.


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## italianbird101 (Sep 12, 2007)

Warren, I dont understand the graph, you will need to explain to me, Please next time I see you


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

That's a great chart to go by Thanks Warren, It's easy to understand cocks blue, Hens pink, Just as long as you wright each genaration number down on the pedigree so you know what to bred to what, and doing it with the best, and get reid of the rest.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I know someone in our club my mentor, he uses three different bloodlines that breeds really good birds and there offspring breeds good birds, they just keep passing it down from one to the other he has been doing this for about 5 years now, and let me tell you he is hard to beat. he also gives a bird are two to different people in our combine and they perform better then what they have, he give one to someone and it became #1 bird in the state this pass year.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Lovelace said:


> I know someone in our club my mentor, he uses three different bloodlines that breeds really good birds and there offspring breeds good birds, they just keep passing it down from one to the other he has been doing this for about 5 years now, and let me tell you he is hard to beat. he also gives a bird are two to different people in our combine and they perform better then what they have, he give one to someone and it became #1 bird in the state this pass year.


That is what a breeder strives for. Put your birds in someone else's loft and they go right to the top. First droppers. Our club is very competitive. John Guiterrez won a futurity last year. Ken Easley has a bird 11th last I looked in the South African Race etc. These guys love to compete. When my birds win races and get top 10s I think that they are pretty darn good. Your mentor is the guy you want to go to to stock your loft.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Beleave me I already have some of his blood, and they do great.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovelace said:


> That's a great chart to go by Thanks Warren, It's easy to understand cocks blue, Hens pink, Just as long as you wright each genaration number down on the pedigree so you know what to bred to what, and *doing it with the best*, and get reid of the rest.



I fear that when sharing such a blueprint, the validity of which, I really haven't a clue, is that a casual observer will neglect the selection process. As we already know, there is no value that I can imagine, if one follows the chart, but does not select for the desired traits. 

One could get the all the correct pairings by the chart, and fail miserably, because the average fancier is going to select fairly average pigeons to continue the plan. Then when he fails, he will see it as a failure of design, rather then a failure of application by way of the selection process. 

When attempting to follow, even in a general way, some form of line breeding or inbreeding, one must realize that the closer one breeds around the family tree, the less likely it becomes that you will produce race winners. As the more inbred your line becomes, the loss of vitality and vigor increases.The reason why that is a challenge, is because when your selection method is performance based, your best breeder in an inbred line could very well be a so so or very average racer because of the depression of vitality and vigor. 

One may state that he selects from the basket, but if that basket does not provide a sufficient means of testing, then the fancier is at a great handicap in trying to identify that pigeon, which can move his colony to a whole new level. 

I do find some short falls in this over all grand design from a practical point of view. Somewhere along the line, say you come into an unrelated "Super Star" and you do a cross from this line. The resulting offspring could end up being better then anything else you happen to own, then what ? Is this a start of a whole new line, or did the success come the crossing of the lines ? Should the old lines be maintained for crossing purposes, or does one simply make room for the new and improved ? Does anyone ever get to the end, or has that only happened with mice in a lab ?

In conclusion, I would think it's practical use and application, would be to use it as a frame work from which to build a family line. If you had two such lines, one could then cross these lines from which to produce racers. But, I digress....


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

In a loft one should have several family lines. and utilize Those lines. A breeder can be a ok race bird BUT produce good race birds. As it has the strengh in its genes to do so. And bringing in outsided needed birds Adds to the family group. And keeps it from growing tight. But it becomes funny how some breed and cross in the breeder loft And will not use those birds back into there program. Where others will. any way a person looks at it. No one stays on top with out work each and every year. And the best still find they produce a top bird just about every 8 to 10 years that equals or exceeds the past performer. meaning 1 in about 40 to 60 young birds produced of the top bird becomes that bird you are looking for. Where perhaps 5 to 6 were usable over the 8 to 10 year time. It just goes to show how rare the great birds are in a loft.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> In a loft one should have several family lines. and utilize Those lines. A breeder can be a ok race bird BUT produce good race birds. As it has the strengh in its genes to do so. And bringing in outsided needed birds Adds to the family group. And keeps it from growing tight. But it becomes funny how some breed and cross in the breeder loft And will not use those birds back into there program. Where others will. any way a person looks at it. No one stays on top with out work each and every year. And the best still find they produce a top bird just about every 8 to 10 years that equals or exceeds the past performer. meaning 1 in about 40 to 60 young birds produced of the top bird becomes that bird you are looking for. Where perhaps 5 to 6 were usable over the 8 to 10 year time. It just goes to show how rare the great birds are in a loft.


 Unfortunately, what you say is pretty much the case I am afraid. Which is why it is a little bit "funny" that some breeding farms will sell all that they produce and yet, experienced breeders will know that if you get even one really good one out of 10 produced, you would be doing extremely well. 

If one produces 40 to 60 as in your example, over a period of years, and produces a single honest to goodness Super, then that may be what a "typical" Champ might produce. 

The sad truth is, for most fanciers, that may be a once in a life time event. That creates a whole new set of challenges, because in many cases, after a few rounds for a couple years, if that "star" doesn't happen to emerge from that pair, they are soon broken up, and perhaps removed from the loft. And we all will almost never know when we had a "star" didn't realise it, didn't recognise it, and perhaps removed it from the loft, never knowing what we had.

So, don't anyone kid themselves, breeding those exceptional pigeons, even if one starts with very good stock, is a very difficult and challeging task, even in some of the best lofts, with some very good birds. There are some very good examples of that right here in the USA, where some breeders have access to numerous Champion racers, and have spent hundreds of thousands of $$ perhaps millions, and still produce a very large percentage of some very average pigeons. Those are the odds we are up againest. 

You are also correct, that some will cross in the breeding loft and produce a good racer, and then sell or rid themselves of the bird because it is a cross, and not "pure". I did that myself in early days, thinking these "hybreds" were to be used for racing but not breeding. Ended up buying some of these back and pairing with family lines, and almost every year produce additional winners. Who would have thunk it ??? Which is why any "plan" must be used with a bit of common sense. I got so hung up on my blue print, that I was missing good opportunities.


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