# How to breed good recessive red color



## loonecho

Hi everyone,

I find myself wanting to embark on another color breeding project. I would like to breed a show quality recessive red homer. I have what I consider a pretty good starting poiint with a cock bird that I would consider a 7 or 8 out of ten with ten being true show quality. His coloration is quite uniform with no mottling. The flights and tail are nice red color although the tail bar is deeper red than rest of the tail. He does have a white rump as often seen in blue series birds. He also has some blue casting showing on his underside. My question is what should I pair him with to begin improving the color to a deep uniform red all over? Some choices I currently have in hens are: 

Dirty Black Velvet hen -(**** for T-pattern)(really nice dark uniform black)
Dirty Indigo Velvet hen - (T-pattern and medium checker)
Spread black hen (just got her so I don't know if she is het spread or ****, or what she is underneath)
Recessive Yellow Trenton (perfect coloration - nice uniform color over entire bird)

My first instinct is to put him with the yellow trenton. But i just got her and she is paired with a yellow cock that is equally as nice. I would welcome any ideas on strategies for F1 and beyond. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might offer.

Jim


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## Print Tippler

Well, there's only a chance the you will get an recessive red out of the first three. Only with the yellow will you get all reds. There is only a chance that the other birds are carrying the gene, which would then only be giving you 50%. In the long run if your yellow is a good yellow it would probably have spread and be t pattern and be the best bird to use and your get all reds. All the other birds have something they Pictures would be good of all the birds. Reds can go in different directions depending on if you want it really bright or a darker color. All the other birds can help improve the red. So in the long run I would breed the all into the red.


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## loonecho

Thanks for the reply Print Tippler. I guess I should have stated that I understand if I breed to any of the first three, that I would have to then breed back to recessive red to get them. I was thinking I might have to do this in several steps or generations. You may be right, that the recessive yellow may already have many of the factor I am looking for since she is of such nice uniform color.

Jim


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## re lee

When you put the red over the yellow You get bettere colored yellows but fade to resseive red. To work the red You want to breed and use the better colore birds In homers often ressive red is showing blueing in the flights and tail. Now Some muleman ressive reds are not bad red colored. You wnat to work on clearing up the blueing. That does take time Just as back in the 1970s when several import ressive red modenas from England was brought in. many were GOOD birds but lacked the good color blue through tail for most part. With red and yellow you will get both colors. And If the faded reds show less blueing You can work them back over your red line. And you should start to notice better color depth in your yellows.


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## Print Tippler

Matters if the red carries dilute or not. I know a lot of Trenton's are yellow so there's certainly a possibility. It's all possible to get all red offsprings with cocks carrying but not showing dilute (yellow). Have no ideal of how to improve your birds though unless pictures were shown so we could know exactly what it may be lacking or what be could improved. I don't know what your talking about re lee in regards to fading. How can recessive yellow fade to red?


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## NZ Pigeon

I would leave the yellows paired, For simplicitys sake, that way all they will breed is yellows. Put the recessive red to the T pattern blue at first, Breed some T pattern blues that carry recessive red, Pair them together to get some recessive reds that should be T patterns ( around 75% ) and (25%) out of the totals will be recessive red. Once you get a recessive red put it to a spread ( preferably a **** spread but a het would work ) That way you should get some nice T pattern recessive reds that carry spread. then you want to add kite bronze or some other type of bronze to help richer the red


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## Print Tippler

Well there is a possible linkage between kite and mottling in recessive red. I wouldn't advise adding kite when wanting a self.


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## NZ Pigeon

Print Tippler said:


> Well there is a possible linkage between kite and mottling in recessive red. I wouldn't advise adding kite when wanting a self.


Kite is exceptionally common in recessive reds, I have had heaps if WOET tht are recessive red SELFS that all carry kite.

Whats this linkage you talk of, I thought some sort of grizzle gene would be needed for mottle, I have never heard of or seen kite turning white, Have you any scientific studies or is this all hear say?


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## Print Tippler

I guess you don't understand what the world possible means? Maybe if you spoke up earlier in another thread you probably read that then there wouldn't be any question. As for studies I have mine own going right now.


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## NZ Pigeon

Yes I understand what possible means but you are telling someone NOT to follow my advice due to a possibility you have HEARD Of, I have actually bred red selfs with kite and not had any mottles, I have also read in many places and kite improves reds so my info and advice is probably a little more accurate than your possibilities. Maybe complete your tests and then come back to us rather than filling peoples heads with unprooven info.

I am not sure what you mean about speaking up earlier,???? I only just read this last night as I have a life and am not on here 24/7. Is there some rule that I need to post within a certain timeframe of the OP 'er?


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## re lee

Print Tippler said:


> Matters if the red carries dilute or not. I know a lot of Trenton's are yellow so there's certainly a possibility. It's all possible to get all red offsprings with cocks carrying but not showing dilute (yellow). Have no ideal of how to improve your birds though unless pictures were shown so we could know exactly what it may be lacking or what be could improved. I don't know what your talking about re lee in regards to fading. How can recessive yellow fade to red?


I used to raise Modenas In resesive RED and YELLOW. NOW for the easy part. The red gets a faded look from the yellow In other words it loses color depth. As GOOD resesive red should be a rich chesnut color through out. And Pair it to any blu based bird You also do not decrese the blueing found in flights and tail feathers. Where Yellow is a by product of resesive red. As is the color called a gold which is a lighter rich version of resesive red.. any T pattern birds Will not help red though If quality is the goal It can be used. But again color takes a hit. . I have seen BUT few good colored resesive reds in Race bred birds. Muelman Reds seem some cleaner As they also seem to show white here and there. Which can cleanup. Red will make the yellows much better in color depth. Giving that deep yellow look. LOOK AT A GOOD CLORED resesive red bird Notice how clean it is NO blue. look at a good color yellow resesive. Same you see a deep toned yellow through out. Then look at the poor colored birds You find blue. you find fade in both colors.. And you find NO T pattern in resseive red or yellow But you find it in ASH RED AND YELLOW


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## NZ Pigeon

Re lee, I have noticed in my frillbacks that the red ones that carry dilute ( yellow ) are not as rich as the cocks that do not carry dilute so this could be why some of the reds bred from yellows are not as dark.


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## jabadao

loonecho said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I find myself wanting to embark on another color breeding project. I would like to breed a show quality recessive red homer. I have what I consider a pretty good starting poiint with a cock bird that I would consider a 7 or 8 out of ten with ten being true show quality. His coloration is quite uniform with no mottling. The flights and tail are nice red color although the tail bar is deeper red than rest of the tail. He does have a white rump as often seen in blue series birds. He also has some blue casting showing on his underside. My question is what should I pair him with to begin improving the color to a deep uniform red all over? Some choices I currently have in hens are:
> 
> Dirty Black Velvet hen -(**** for T-pattern)(really nice dark uniform black)
> Dirty Indigo Velvet hen - (T-pattern and medium checker)
> Spread black hen (just got her so I don't know if she is het spread or ****, or what she is underneath)
> Recessive Yellow Trenton (perfect coloration - nice uniform color over entire bird)
> 
> My first instinct is to put him with the yellow trenton. But i just got her and she is paired with a yellow cock that is equally as nice. I would welcome any ideas on strategies for F1 and beyond. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might offer.
> 
> Jim


Dirty and RR are allèles.
For a good RR,ash-red is the better ( T-pattern indigo ).


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## NZ Pigeon

jabadao said:


> Dirty and RR are allèles.
> For a good RR,ash-red is the better ( T-pattern indigo ).


There are many types of dirty and it is believed one or more types are allelic to RR but this has not been proven.

It comes down to opinion but the overall consensus is that RR goes best on blue T pattern with spread.


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## loonecho

Thanks for the discussion guys. It is helpful. Would I be better working with T-pattern and/or spread from ash red birds rather than blue based? My main problems with the current cock I have is the white rump and the red fading to blue on the underside of the body. The tail and flights are nice red color with no blue bleeding through. I haven't had a chance to get a picture to post here but will try to do that tonight.

Jim


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## NZ Pigeon

I thought blue was best as it darkens the colour from underneath, T pattern and spread are best. But I cannot see why a Red t pattern would be an issue, Only thing is you would not get the "plum" colour that the blue base adds


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> There are many types of dirty and it is believed one or more types are allelic to RR but this has not been proven.
> 
> It comes down to opinion but the overall consensus is that RR goes best on blue T pattern with spread.


I believe you are thinking of ASH RED.


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## NZ Pigeon

Sorry what? Nope Im thinking of recessive red. What part of what I am saying do you think is referring to ash red? 

this is what I said

There are many types of dirty and it is believed one or more types are allelic to Recessive Red but this has not been proven.

It comes down to opinion but the overall consensus is that Recessive Red goes best on blue T pattern with spread.

One thing for sure is ash red is not allelic to dirty as the only alleles to ash red are blue and brown.

And as for the best base colour for recessive red, Like I said it comes down to opinion but most prefer blue T pattern, None of this relates to ash red so I'm confused as to why you would think I am thinking of ash red.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> Sorry what? Nope Im thinking of recessive red. What part of what I am saying do you think is referring to ash red?
> 
> this is what I said
> 
> There are many types of dirty and it is believed one or more types are allelic to Recessive Red but this has not been proven.
> 
> It comes down to opinion but the overall consensus is that Recessive Red goes best on blue T pattern with spread.
> 
> One thing for sure is ash red is not allelic to dirty as the only alleles to ash red are blue and brown.
> 
> And as for the best base colour for recessive red, Like I said it comes down to opinion but most prefer blue T pattern, None of this relates to ash red so I'm confused as to why you would think I am thinking of ash red.


Do you breed resesive reds. Put A blue Or as you say Blue t pattern on one. See what you get. Blue is a problem in breeding GOOD colored reds. BUT not A problem in ASH reds. Breding the birds Is different then reading about It.


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## NZ Pigeon

re lee said:


> Do you breed resesive reds. Put A blue Or as you say Blue t pattern on one. See what you get. Blue is a problem in breeding GOOD colored reds. BUT not A problem in ASH reds. Breding the birds Is different then reading about It.


Did you read the thread,??? You will see if you did that I have bred recessive red birds with blue bases, If you add the correct modifiers the blue does not show through, Maybe you have only read about this and not seen it yourself - hence your lack of understanding???

Like I said its a matter of opinion but I prefer my recessive reds to be blue based.

I would suggest reading the threads properley before making smart comments like "Breding the birds Is different then reading about It"


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> Did you read the thread,??? You will see if you did that I have bred recessive red birds with blue bases, If you add the correct modifiers the blue does not show through, Maybe you have only read about this and not seen it yourself - hence your lack of understanding???
> 
> Like I said its a matter of opinion but I prefer my recessive reds to be blue based.
> 
> I would suggest reading the threads properley before making smart comments like "Breding the birds Is different then reading about It"


Tell your correct way As F1 What do you get . It takes several generations to clear the Blue from Resseive red. But you out look And limited supply of birds to work with Would make for you to do what you must do. But when A person Has the red to work with Unless needed added Quality is the desire Why go To Blue. And Yes I raised Resesive red And I sure know what A good red looks like. Bred many of them. Never Had to read No book. Learned from Very good people. And got in the loft And did the work. But Like I said You have a limited supply of birds to work with So you have to do as you can do. Tell me how your F1 birds look in there color. And YES breeding is different then reading As breeding has its pluses And has its set backs. And has its surprises. .


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## NZ Pigeon

You are making some major assumptions about the amount of birds I have available. recessive reds are very common in pigeons here.

What does "Tell your correct way As F1 What do you get" do you mean whats my breeding program

I am breeding recessive reds into my frillbacks using WOET at the moment, My F1 birds are het for rec red, blue based T patterns with Kite and spread. so it shows the reds carry these traits.

Here is a pic of the bird, I would consider it a good red. I am not sure what you are argueing though, Like I said it comes down to opinion and the breed standard as the phenotypes do differ


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## NZ Pigeon

re lee said:


> Tell your correct way As F1 What do you get . It takes several generations to clear the Blue from Resseive red. But you out look And limited supply of birds to work with Would make for you to do what you must do.* But when A person Has the red to work with Unless needed added Quality is the desire Why go To Blue*. And Yes I raised Resesive red And I sure know what A good red looks like. Bred many of them. Never Had to read No book. Learned from Very good people. And got in the loft And did the work. But Like I said You have a limited supply of birds to work with So you have to do as you can do. Tell me how your F1 birds look in there color. And YES breeding is different then reading As breeding has its pluses And has its set backs. And has its surprises. .


Does this in itself not say that blues add quality to recessive reds?

Also I am not sure if you know about "spread" and "tangled" with regards to the pigment and how it shows, birds show pigment better where they are spread, bars and tail bar, Or the entire wing shield if T pattern. So a Tpattern bird with spread and two dose rec red will show the colour better.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> Does this in itself not say that blues add quality to recessive reds?
> 
> Also I am not sure if you know about "spread" and "tangled" with regards to the pigment and how it shows, birds show pigment better where they are spread, bars and tail bar, Or the entire wing shield if T pattern. So a Tpattern bird with spread and two dose rec red will show the colour better.


Ok you posted pictures of your reds. Well Here In the U S. They would be poor colored reds. And could never be showed. As there color would deduct to many points. NOW that is not being RUDE. A GOOD colored recsesive red Is a rich chesnut colored bird through out. NOTICE how much Blue your birds carry and show. THAT is A fault that needs bred out. And that by its self shows how BLU hurst red. And you say Quality. quality Is working toward a goal Say towards a standard And Towrads Quality in COLOR. So As we are on a seperate page here You need to look further into The desired color depth. And AS I said You have said in the past you can not import birds So must work with what you have and can get in Your country. So You are doing the best you can with what you have to work with. But many places The reds are GOOD colored Have been worked for many years. And The blue has been bred out And T pattern May be the way that is helping you. Did you Know that what some people did was use a total breed out cross to get and set there desired color. You can do this also. even the tumbler was used in some modenas Back in the early 1960s. To help. And REMEMBER A bird can be off colored And not show worthy But have the desired QUALITY To be a great stock bird That can raise show class winners. By pairing it to a good colored bird. It does take a few years sometimes to breed out the blue On reds. Been there years ago. As Like I said quality means crossing the color line IF NEEDED. And do not be afraid to breed out cross if you need to. Many top people have done that through the years to get to a goal in there program. Thhe thread is about a race bird. And many recsesive red race birds Do show Blue. And if good color is the goal Then Blue has to go. It does not help the red it hinders it.


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## NZ Pigeon

Do your guys standards dedicate lots of points to colour, In most of our breeds like tumblers it only makes up around 5 - 10 points therefore birds like these could be showed as if everything else is up to scratch the bird could still win.


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## rudolph.est

It is much easier to breed solid yellow than solid red, especially in homers. The dilution factor often makes it easier for reds and bronzes (yellows and golds) to express. 

As everyone has discussed above, Extremely dirty T-pattern kite blues (or mimic black) often are the best to breed with to improve recessive red. Kite is not common in homers, nor are the most extreme dirty factors that cause mimic blacks (I've never seen one).

A mimic black is a blue T-pattern that is so extremely dark that they are easily mistaken for actual blacks. Good coloured almonds usually have this genetic background also, as do bronze blackwing archangels. The tail of a mimic black is so dark that you have to look at it in bright light to make out the bar.

Even when all these factors are present a fair amount of selection might still be necessary to get a good solid red with the same shade in the upper and lower parts.

I have actually never seen a good show quality recessive red homer in person. They all seem to have blue bleeding through in the tail and underparts. Trenton is about the only family I know of that had recessive red, so your red cock is probably also decended from that family.

I think that recessive red in your homer family might be improved by mating to a drity ash-red T-pattern. Since when there is no blue, there should be less of a blue cast on the red. 

I do know that every article about indigo and recessive red I have ever seen says that indigo will increase the blue bleeding through (plum) and not decrease it. This does not seem to be what some messages have alluded to in this thread, Indigo is definitely not a modifier that improves anything (whether it be recessive red, almond or bronze), it only looks good with spread (and maybe with dominant opal).

A good recessive red is really the product of selection and mating the darkest blues and blacks with the best reds. And never allowing weakly coloured birds to survive. Once you have a couple of good birds, stop outcrossing to blues, and line breed closely to maintain color.


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## NZ Pigeon

Mueleman also had recessive reds, we have a few in NZ. I found out my hen that has red flecking in her tail is from that line also so I think she probably is het rec red. I have a pair of young in the nest now that I will breed together in 6 months and hopefully get RR'ds


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## dublin boy

hi evan, i thought this might intrest you, not sure how true it is, but an intresting read .


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> Mueleman also had recessive reds, we have a few in NZ. I found out my hen that has red flecking in her tail is from that line also so I think she probably is het rec red. I have a pair of young in the nest now that I will breed together in 6 months and hopefully get RR'ds


I have seen better recsesive reds in Mulemans Far as color depth. And yes many are marked with some white. WHICH can be bred out. As even in some really good colored recsesive red They moult in a few white feathers over the years IF you look at the short. And long faced old english tumbler Which by far is a GREAT represenitive of A good recsesive red in color depth. You can see a good deep rich CHESNUT color through out. And Even usung this base for a breed out cross would bring in a good recsesive red color. Far as the next post about trenton and janssen making muleman Well I think that is far fetched. And I believe NOT 100 percent That the early real line of trenton birds Were not recsesvie red. But later birds that hold the old line feature Can be. But Light brick color is Not a way to describe This red. A chesnut colored Horse is even close to the recsesive red concept. And you can have deep coloring with slight blueing in the tail. But there to breeding out the blue still further is needed. If you have a way to even get the old english tumbler in recsesive red to use in your program. It would move forward the color breeding greatly. As it is a strong representive for the red color.


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## NZ Pigeon

re lee said:


> I have seen better recsesive reds in Mulemans Far as color depth. And yes many are marked with some white. WHICH can be bred out. As even in some really good colored recsesive red They moult in a few white feathers over the years IF you look at the short. And long faced old english tumbler Which by far is a GREAT represenitive of A good recsesive red in color depth. You can see a good deep rich CHESNUT color through out. And Even usung this base for a breed out cross would bring in a good recsesive red color. Far as the next post about trenton and janssen making muleman Well I think that is far fetched. And I believe NOT 100 percent That the early real line of trenton birds Were not recsesvie red. But later birds that hold the old line feature Can be. But Light brick color is Not a way to describe This red. A chesnut colored Horse is even close to the recsesive red concept. And you can have deep coloring with slight blueing in the tail. But there to breeding out the blue still further is needed. If you have a way to even get the old english tumbler in recsesive red to use in your program. It would move forward the color breeding greatly. As it is a strong representive for the red color.


R Lee, One thing to point out is that the standards of different breeds ask for different shades or depth of red, so what you are saying is correct in terms of modenas and maybe tumblers but some of the other breeds want a dark copper looking red instead of a rich chesnut.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> R Lee, One thing to point out is that the standards of different breeds ask for different shades or depth of red, so what you are saying is correct in terms of modenas and maybe tumblers but some of the other breeds want a dark copper looking red instead of a rich chesnut.


No recsesive red is JUST that. The prescribed color concept May be versed different. But It still is the goal. Any thing less is A fault in the color. NOW some lines will show a slightly less Rich red. Such as many dual colored birds Helmets. lahores, tail marked fatail. ECT BUT the red will be clean of any blueing. And uniform throu out in color. But the goal still is to be the best representive to the color Goal. And Blue. IS a color fault. Along with faded DULLING of the color.. But Several breeds Such as the HOMER?RACE bird is often found to show blue because color selction is often not bred for unless The birds are showed more then flown and raced. And The HORN beak is the desired beak color Any stained or darkening of the beak Most allways show to And blue coloring to the bird. be it flights tail and under belly feathers. That to becomes a fault.


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## NZ Pigeon

re lee said:


> No recsesive red is JUST that. The prescribed color concept May be versed different. But It still is the goal. Any thing less is A fault in the color. NOW some lines will show a slightly less Rich red. Such as many dual colored birds Helmets. lahores, tail marked fatail. ECT BUT the red will be clean of any blueing. And uniform throu out in color. But the goal still is to be the best representive to the color Goal. And Blue. IS a color fault. Along with faded DULLING of the color.. But Several breeds Such as the HOMER?RACE bird is often found to show blue because color selction is often not bred for unless The birds are showed more then flown and raced. And The HORN beak is the desired beak color Any stained or darkening of the beak Most allways show to And blue coloring to the bird. be it flights tail and under belly feathers. That to becomes a fault.



I think you missed my point, I'm Not talking about the base colour anymore. Depending on the breed the shade of red changes so recessive red is not Just that, the colour requirements vary slightly across the different breeds. That is a fact which I don't think you can argue with, If I need to I will find you some different standards with different colour requirements of rec red but Im hoping you will just realise that it is true without all that effort


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> I think you missed my point, I'm Not talking about the base colour anymore. Depending on the breed the shade of red changes so recessive red is not Just that, the colour requirements vary slightly across the different breeds. That is a fact which I don't think you can argue with, If I need to I will find you some different standards with different colour requirements of rec red but Im hoping you will just realise that it is true without all that effort


If the bird is a self colored bird The color would be As I mentioned. If it is A dual colored bird. Often then It would be WHITE and recsesive red. Then YES AS I said the color would be slightly Lighter NOT much. And NO fade NO blue. Recsesive red throughout. And That You would have to agree to. A FAULT is A FAULT that is a fact. Go to this link And read more about it. www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/recessivered.html Use this link To read more about recessive red. And it will help clear up what i have been trying to say


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## NZ Pigeon

I have read that many times, I understand what you are saying, I think you are missing my point that the recessive red colours and standards vary across breeds (fact). No worries though, I will just leave it at that.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have read that many times, I understand what you are saying, I think you are missing my point that the recessive red colours and standards vary across breeds (fact). No worries though, I will just leave it at that.


You need to look at the standards. I just looked at the standard FOR WOE tumblers. And the red is just as I have said.. And I looked at the stadard for frill backs. Same goes. Because there Is only one true recessive red color. Then depth of color. But all say the same Color will extend through out the feather and the quill. Plus HORN beak is the beak color. Now I leave it at that.. The rest is work in progress.


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## NZ Pigeon

What about the standard for the Barb? I think you will find they are needing to be a darker recessive red than other standards. Obviously recessive reds need horn beaks and ofcourse they need to be all one colour, Thats basic and I am not disputing that at all but you are missing my point still that the colour/shade/intensity/depth that is required for a show quality bird varys across the breeds.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> What about the standard for the Barb? I think you will find they are needing to be a darker recessive red than other standards. Obviously recessive reds need horn beaks and ofcourse they need to be all one colour, Thats basic and I am not disputing that at all but you are missing my point still that the colour/shade/intensity/depth that is required for a show quality bird varys across the breeds.


I still think you are wrong. There is one goal in recessive red For self colored birds. And It boils down to the best color Quality you can achive. i tried and tried to Find in the Barb standar where it said How deep the red should be. Chesnut Is a rather deep color. That describes the red. Some say Almost blood red. Some say brick red. But that is general idea Chesnut and Rich to deep chesnut best driscribes it. I have seen and had some rather deep colored reds. And have seen the different shades. It as I said boils down to depth. I have raised and bred from reds split to yellow BECAUSE they had geat quality And using then back on a good colored red resets the red.. And Yellow is improved by red when it is not good in depth. Blue takes more time to work out Gold is kind of between red and yellow. And some would mistake it for red Not knowing. And it to . And surpises happen. I remember years ago I sold a good recessive red Modena Cock to a friend. About 1 year later He raised a real good colored BROWN modena COCK not hen. from That cock. on a recsessive red hen. Now that cock was down from a white cock over red hen four generation back. But rst were all recessive red. NOW The white may have been down from BLACK As the old GREEN line of whites Blacks were used to improve Quality. So a surpise is there As all birds mask something.


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## NZ Pigeon

re lee said:


> I still think you are wrong. There is one goal in recessive red For self colored birds. And It boils down to the best color Quality you can achive. i tried and tried to Find in the Barb standar where it said How deep the red should be. Chesnut Is a rather deep color. That describes the red. Some say Almost blood red. Some say brick red. But that is general idea Chesnut and Rich to deep chesnut best driscribes it. I have seen and had some rather deep colored reds. And have seen the different shades. It as I said boils down to depth. I have raised and bred from reds split to yellow BECAUSE they had geat quality And using then back on a good colored red resets the red.. And Yellow is improved by red when it is not good in depth. Blue takes more time to work out Gold is kind of between red and yellow. And some would mistake it for red Not knowing. And it to . And surpises happen. I remember years ago I sold a good recessive red Modena Cock to a friend. About 1 year later He raised a real good colored BROWN modena COCK not hen. from That cock. on a recsessive red hen. Now that cock was down from a white cock over red hen four generation back. But rst were all recessive red. NOW The white may have been down from BLACK As the old GREEN line of whites Blacks were used to improve Quality. So a surpise is there As all birds mask something.



See I got thrown off when you started talking about modenas and WOET's needing to look chestnut like a horse, I have competed in equestrian and bred horses for a good 15 years and chestnut on a horse is a lot different to what I consider a good brick red recessive red..

Not all birds mask something, I have some good ol wild type hens in my racing loft but brown is recessive so if he bred a brown cock from that pair they both had to carry brown, The recessive red hen must have been hiding it under her two doses of recessive red. 

What makes nosense though is that if they were *both true recessive red *they should not throw *anything but recessive reds* period.

Does not sound like an *actual Brown *as in the alelle of ash red and blue to me though. Maybe some kind of *bronze* that is *epistatic* to recessive red


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> See I got thrown off when you started talking about modenas and WOET's needing to look chestnut like a horse, I have competed in equestrian and bred horses for a good 15 years and chestnut on a horse is a lot different to what I consider a good brick red recessive red..
> 
> Not all birds mask something, I have some good ol wild type hens in my racing loft but brown is recessive so if he bred a brown cock from that pair they both had to carry brown, The recessive red hen must have been hiding it under her two doses of recessive red.
> 
> What makes nosense though is that if they were *both true recessive red *they should not throw *anything but recessive reds* period.
> 
> Does not sound like an *actual Brown *as in the alelle of ash red and blue to me though. Maybe some kind of *bronze* that is *epistatic* to recessive red


YOU Are wrong There On the brown concept. I know I raised the red cock. When it threw the brown cock For the person. It became his foundation to raising Brown Modenas. I saw the bird myself. And I new of the red cocks breeding for several generations. IF you raised Horses I did to. Had 15 myself.at one time And had several others over the years And chesnut on a horse is rather close to recessive red. If you want to use the term brick red. Well remember there are many different colors of red Brick It just is a persons wording. And NO bird is true to its color When you unmask it. People talk about JOE Quinns Notebook. I well remember when it started to become popular. And well remember several people using it to unmask there birds. And well remember They ruined there stud of birds dealing to deep. But they found hidden color they never new was behind there birds. Then people used it as a tool And it helped. Have you ever thrown a bird That was different in any recent color. And looked back on the breeding charts Or pedigrees. And found 15 year before There was a bird that was that color. Things do happen Just not often .Then split birds it happens often as 1 time a year. It is different in the loft. As it is different in a job. The book can say one thing but there are things that Just do not work as the book says. I do not know why you want to debate recessive red so much. If you want to call a blue bird Red then fine. If you want to call a black bird white fine. Your reds Need work on there color depth. And I know you can achive it the best way you can. And I know you have a limited supply base. So you have to work harder then many do. And i know you are trying to add it to a differnt line Which means extra work. And when You achive this You will see The goal is the same for all recessive reds Just some are deeper richer in color Which mean more selection was used. And many breeds already have good color And some do not Because some breed have less followers And less people working them. I give up While we are debating red Thousands of people are in the loft breeding good reds.


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## NZ Pigeon

what part of the brown concept is wrong, you told me the other day you h ave read no books about genetics but if you had you would understand two recessive reds can not produce a true brown and you would also understand that both his hen and your cock had to be carrying brown to produce one.

All of what you have said is well and good but I want you to explain how to recessive reds can produce a brown, Recessive red in two doses will also cover the base colour, If you put two recessive reds together then you should not be able to breed a true brown. NOW THAT IS FACT

So please tell me what part of my brown concept is wrong. Rather than making general comments stating I am wrong. I have read over what I have said and nothing is incorrect according to Ron Huntley website and I have to say I would go with what he has said over you.


I will just take your word for the red thing but as for the Brown side of things, You are wrong, from the info you have given the bird is not a true Brown as its genetically impossible to produce one of two recessive reds.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> what part of the brown concept is wrong, you told me the other day you h ave read no books about genetics but if you had you would understand two recessive reds can not produce a true brown and you would also understand that both his hen and your cock had to be carrying brown to produce one.
> 
> All of what you have said is well and good but I want you to explain how to recessive reds can produce a brown, Recessive red in two doses will also cover the base colour, If you put two recessive reds together then you should not be able to breed a true brown. NOW THAT IS FACT
> 
> So please tell me what part of my brown concept is wrong. Rather than making general comments stating I am wrong. I have read over what I have said and nothing is incorrect according to Ron Huntley website and I have to say I would go with what he has said over you.
> 
> 
> I will just take your word for the red thing but as for the Brown side of things, You are wrong, from the info you have given the bird is not a true Brown as its genetically impossible to produce one of two recessive reds.


No I did not tell you I have not red any books. I said I do not read from the books. As I have had the books over the years. . NOW what you do not know Is like I said IN THE LOFT THINGS TURN OUT DIFFERENT FROM THE BOOK CONCEPT. And how can you say what you say When I said what I New about The birds. I was there . YOU were not. I know What happened YOU do not. So you do not KNOW ANYTHING about this. And You are talking without any knowledge. And the bird sure was Brown. I would for one Never tell ANY lie about somthing like this > As why would I ever need to. You Think you Know Things BECAUSE YOU READ. I have tried to tell you things in the loft is different At times. YOU just can not get it. You need to learn more By doing then reading And not knowing. I F I tell you I bred a red white and blue pigeon that means I did If I tell you I saw one That means I did. In other words I know what I am saying. And if you are so dumb to Not believe the trutrh Thewn You will never know much at all.


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## NZ Pigeon

Once again, What part of the "brown concept" am I wrong about 

I have bred a lot of birds, Not as many as you but enough to say I have "done" so your judgement of me having only read books is completely wrong.


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## almondman

Please people, can this discussion be taken to Private Message. I'm afraid of what newbies might think seeing a moderator and matriarch going toe to toe.


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## NZ Pigeon

almondman said:


> Please people, can this discussion be taken to Private Message. I'm afraid of what newbies might think seeing a moderator and matriarch going toe to toe.


Its relevant to the thread, its not abusive or be-litting to anyone so I do not see the problem having this "discussion" in a public place.

I am surely not taking anything personal, Just discussing facts.


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## AZCorbin

NZ Pigeon said:


> Its relevant to the thread, its not abusive or be-litting to anyone so I do not see the problem having this "discussion" in a public place.
> 
> I am surely not taking anything personal, Just discussing facts.


I agree, I don't see this thread as abusive. I do however believe the two of you are beating a dead horse with each other and should move on.


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## spirit wings

all I have learned is.. a good R. Red should be described as a deep chestnut and strived for... sounds good to me. ..


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## NZ Pigeon

AZCorbin said:


> I agree, I don't see this thread as abusive. I do however believe the two of you are beating a dead horse with each other and should move on.


Yeah you right, I guess some people understand the genetics behind things and some prefer just to describe things as things like " deep chestnut " and not worry about the technics behind it all. Some learn from doing, Some learn from reading and then doing. Different learning styles I guess. O well one thing I know for sure is I am not wrong with anything I Have said regarding the inheritance of brown. That one seems strange but RLEE saw it happen so I guess there is no chance a different cockbird got over the hen or anything like that, Just have to put it down to an unexplainable event


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## NZ Pigeon

gbhman said:


> I agree 500% it should be taken to private messages.


Find me something in the code of conduct that suggests this is not for the public forum

For *** sake, forums are to discuss things, If people don't want to learn, they don't need to read the discussion. And I thought NZ was a PC country, whats the world coming to if people cannot discuss something like a pigeons colour without people getting offended.

If you dont like it dont read it.


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## NZ Pigeon

spirit wings said:


> all I have learned is.. a good R. Red should be described as a deep chestnut and strived for... sounds good to me. ..


I have a copy of the Barb standard here, Checked it last night from a friends copy,

In New Zealand the Barb standard asks for a deep mahogany colour, Not chestnut.

Our standards are based on the ANPA standards so I think yours would be similar

I knew the colour requirements differed between breeds, Its all I was saying from word go and R lee would not accept it. Maybe now he will..... doubt it though


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## spirit wings

mahogany sounds nice too.. what other shades of R.Red are strived for in the other breeds? mahogany? chestnut?...deep red? I suppose one goes by what the standard says for that breed, I think judges tend to have their favorite shades as well...but I assume it would be the standard for that breed. the problem may be in who wrote the discription and used what one may call mahogany is chestnut to antoher and so on..lol.. there probalby should be a consenus on what to strive for in R.Red in any breed...?


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## almondman

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have a copy of the Barb standard here, Checked it last night from a friends copy,
> 
> In New Zealand the Barb standard asks for a deep mahogany colour, Not chestnut.
> 
> Our standards are based on the ANPA standards so I think yours would be similar
> 
> I knew the colour requirements differed between breeds, Its all I was saying from word go and R lee would not accept it. Maybe now he will..... doubt it though


You are right, forums are for discussing. But come on man, your last paragraph isn't discussing, it's bashing. You're better than that.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have a copy of the Barb standard here, Checked it last night from a friends copy,
> 
> In New Zealand the Barb standard asks for a deep mahogany colour, Not chestnut.
> 
> Our standards are based on the ANPA standards so I think yours would be similar
> 
> I knew the colour requirements differed between breeds, Its all I was saying from word go and R lee would not accept it. Maybe now he will..... doubt it though


The problem is your lack of understanding Of what recessive red is. I posted a link for you to read. YOUR responce was You had read that many times. WELL in the link posted It also stated CHESNUT color for recessive red. NOW YOU find the word mahogany. Which agian is just a discription Idea To what recessive red is . The color remains the same in every breed of pigeon. Idae at one time led to The red carnaue. The old english tumbler As those to breed have long been a good representation Of recessive red. You stateed You trust and believe Ron Huntly Over anything I say FINE BUt I went to his site Looked at the bird he shows a recessive red. ONE it Does have some red in it BUT a very large amount of blue. EVEN more so then the birds you have. Meaning YES a person can say its red. BUT it is a poor bird to use to display Recessive red. Then if you red Your Country standard In it for recessive red Did it state the red is to be through out the feather and quills. Mahogany Is a word used But still means the same as the other words used to describe the red color.. That is what you fail to understand. Then You say on the brown bird I spoke of it could not be brown. That bird Was born before you was ever born. It was born In 1978. Its father thye red cock was a 1976 Hatched bird BAND number npa nm 76 809.. I had no reason to make that up. I had to look back to find the birds band number. There will be a surprise in the loft from time to time. Brick red., Mahogany, chesnut, Is just a name used You will also find In the different breed where they have a small following And small to NO class represented in SHOWS Description can very. Large classes with large numbers of followers. Meaning breeders breeding and showing Have More numbers in Shows Have you been to shows where thousands of birds are being showed. And some breed are deep 300 400 500 and of the same breed. Then see small classes where 10 or 15 birds of that breed are represented. . But even there THE color idea still remains the same. I know You like pigeons And I know you have limits Like I have said But that does not mean The idea changes. But it does mean You have to work with what you can get. I understand that. And I understand What you may think is great in color May be the best you can get for now. But there is a great big world out there And plenty of great colored birds. And in homers You find these newer colors Were often made by breed out cross. Just as in other breeds. Everything takes years to do. But that is why it is a hobby. Rather then try sao hard to prove me wrong Why dont You try to look around on the web at different recessive red birds. And see there good color. And see the good ones have a common color look. . I got my first Joe Quinn Note book back in about 1978. But like I said I relie little on a book. And like I said I saw people ruin the many years of breeding trying to learn more on genetic breeding. And then had to rebuild there whole loft over. Its not what your bird is hiding or masking. It is what you want to do with your birds. As if you want a different color then you breed keep records And get that color. When it is there It may show you a thing from the past. It can be good it can be not needed for you. With out records and past breeding history it is allways just a guess and try.Who cares say if a bird is carrying red When you want white Your goal is white See what I mean . just record it in you records save it for a rainy day.


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## NZ Pigeon

gbhman said:


> I was going to type out a long response, but why waste my time when you obviously know everything already. It's much easier for me to click the ignore button and not sweat some braggart on a forum. Have a day


Atleast im sticking to the topic rather than political BS

I'm Done on this thread.


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## almondman

NZ Pigeon said:


> Atleast im sticking to the topic rather than political BS
> 
> I'm Done on this thread.





*THANK YOU!!!!*. (even if you never see this post)

I'm not sure how much more information could have been discussed that really had any relevance to the thread. You should just agree to disagree.


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## rudolph.est

spirit wings said:


> mahogany sounds nice too.. what other shades of R.Red are strived for in the other breeds? mahogany? chestnut?...deep red? I suppose one goes by what the standard says for that breed, I think judges tend to have their favorite shades as well...but I assume it would be the standard for that breed. the problem may be in who wrote the discription and used what one may call mahogany is chestnut to antoher and so on..lol.. there probalby should be a consenus on what to strive for in R.Red in any breed...?


It is very different for people who write the standards to choose a name for a colour. Even the word mahogany or chestnut can be interpreted differently by different people. 

Colour is always a touchy subject, in any breed standard, and even in other applications. 

There are a few color standardizations out there which usually helps. 

For instance one can see mahogany and chestnut at wikipedia for example shades of these colors. But even then, your monitor setting and ambient light will change the color shown. With the advent standardized of color printing I believe the standards for pigeons should contain color samples (swatches) of what the desired color is, that can be compared to the actual birds. Isn't that the function of the standard? To make it clear what colour is desired?

This would clear up most of the discussion that went awry here. The difference between show standards and genetics, once again causing so much ruckus.


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## Print Tippler

You can calibrate your screen based on ambient light. The tool cost like 300 dollars though. Even then though... Most modern screen are glossy and not matte. Glossy screens saturate and darkens reds so your color would still be false. Then the pictures themselves would need to be taken raw and exposed perfectly and had proper color corrections done. Given all that you may be able to see properly.


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