# pigeon breed or coloring? confused, need the experts



## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

I have two pet pigeons, Wiggles, who I know is a rock pigeon, and Puddles, who I assumed was the same thing, but now I am not so sure. You will need to know that my two babies, not really babies, they are 6 months old, were rescues. Their mom was killed by a hawk when they were little gold fluffs of nothing and I had to bring them in from my stable. This was my first introduction to birds beyond feeding the wild ones. They are now pets, because they are totally domesticated and live in my house. (Just to be sure the pics below are NOT my birds). Now, back to Puddles. I assumed that she would be a rock pigeon as well, just different coloring then Wiggles. Well today I tossed out some seed for the wild pigeons and some new pigeons, who looked completely different then any of the other ones I have ever seen out here, decided to eat with the local flock. They were large, almost the full size of a grown rock pigeon, but they are distinctly marked and all 8 of them looked exactly alike, except the females had a bit of brown on their heads, like Puddles. They look just like Puddles, except my guys are really small, Puddles in particular. (May be because of how young they were when their mom died and we stepped in. Vet confirmed totally healthy). I am new to most of this. I have mostly got the health- diet, related things understood thanks to hours of research and reading posts here. I do not, however, know much about coloring, and breeds. I know there are over 2 hundred pigeon and dove breeds in the world, but that is about it. So, my questions -1, the birds below, that I noticed today, is that a specific breed of pigeon, or is it a matter of coloring? I know they called it blue checkering but I am not sure if that is all it is, or if it is related to a specific breed. 2. If it is a breed matter, why is Wiggles a perfectly marked rock pigeon and Puddles is not? 3, if it is a different breed, or if I got the name of the markings wrong, what is it? Lastly, these birds have never shown up before, and the 8 that were here were marked exactly alike. How is that possible if it is just a matter of coloring? Thanks for your help everyone, I was shocked when I noticed these birds. They are like giant clones of Puddles, and I have never seen this - or them- before.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Lovely birds!


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

cwebster said:


> Lovely birds!


yeah they are, I just wish I knew what what are they/ is it coloring/ because they are identical to my Puddles, after she shed her baby feathers. that was strange, she was just really dark before, but now she looks like the 2nd pic I posted. do they change a bit in coloring when they lose their baby feathers? this was my first time with that. thankfully they just finished. do you think they will molt when most birds do in the year, or do you think it will vary since they are in the house and it has constant climate control? I will have to post new pics of them (as you can tell I am a proud pigeon parent, dragging out the photos  so you can see what I mean about Puddles and these mystery birds.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

wiggles and puddles said:


> I have two pet pigeons, Wiggles, who I know is a rock pigeon, and Puddles, who I assumed was the same thing, but now I am not so sure.
> 
> * (Just to be sure the pics below are NOT my birds).*
> 
> Now, back to Puddles. I assumed that she would be a rock pigeon as well, just different coloring then Wiggles. Well today I tossed out some seed for the wild pigeons and some new pigeons, who looked completely different then any of the other ones I have ever seen out here, decided to eat with the local flock. They were large, almost the full size of a grown rock pigeon, but they are distinctly marked and all 8 of them looked exactly alike, except the females had a bit of brown on their heads, like Puddles. They look just like Puddles, except my guys are really small, Puddles in particular.


Without a picture of Puddles it would be a wild guess to say what the color genetics are on it.

The two birds in the pictures are blue pigeons carrying the t-pattern check gene. The younger one looks like it carries either recessive red (doubtful), or some factor for bronze which is indicated by the lacing on the feathers of the head. That tell goes away with the adult plumage. The reason I listed recessive red as doubtful is because recessive red is not that common in wild flocks.

The birds that joined the feral are probably a lost domestic flock of the same breed. Most of the flying performing breeds, like rollers and homers, that I am familiar with don't have a set color and pattern so I don't have a clue what they may have been without a picture.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

ok, so here are the pics of my birds. I just took these all of 2 minutes ago, and you will have to forgive me. they have a pad that goes on their resting shelf that they nocked down and pooed on, so I have to clean that, but I wanted to get you these pics. I think you know who is who, but Wiggles is the grey (and if anyone has anything specific I can learn about his coloring, etc - that would be awesome) and Puddles is the darker one. they both just, and I mean like 2 days ago, finished losing all their baby feathers. in better lighting you can really see the bronze coloring on Puddles' chest and head. And you know I have to say it - are they not the cutest little kids? they are so loving and affectionate, they could not be any better, nor could I love them any more.


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## RamseyRingnecks (Jun 18, 2013)

Breedwise, they are both feral. All feral pigeons are the descendants of lost homers, rollers, and other performance breeds, so most of them end up looking primarily homer-ish with stockier bodies and less tight feathering.

Color wise, Wriggles is a lovely little blue bar.

Puddles is also blue bar, but there seems to be a little bronze about the chest and just a TON of really gorgeous grizzling. Maybe even toy stencil? 

Is there a pattern between grizzling and toy stencil? Color breeders, help us out!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Beautiful birds!


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*colors*

I agree with Ramsey that Puddles is s typical feral blue bar. Puddles is the original wild type of the Rock Dove.

I disagree with Ramsey on Wiggles. I think Wiggles is also blue, but I think the pattern on Wiggles maybe a check. The wing shield is further darkened with black splotches that are caused by a gene known as sooty. Checker birds have a defined checkered looking pattern of black over the blue. The sooty gene on a blue bar will cause irregular shaped black blotches in the wing shield. It will also cause those irregular black blotches on the check bird to the point of making the checker pattern hard to discern. I think I see some of the defined black checks in the shield on Wiggles.

I also see the reddish lacing in the chest area that Ramsey is pointing out, but I don't know which gene is causing that effect. It is either recessive red or one of the genes for bronze. Blue birds that carry one gene for recessive red will show that reddish edge on their feathers when they are young, but it will be absent in the adult plumage. Birds carrying a factor for bronze will also show that reddish lacing in the young. However, bronze can sometimes be retained in the adult birds, but bronze is not always present in the adult plumage. To make matters more complicated when one gene for recessive red and a gene for a bronze factor are present, the birds can appear even more reddish. You can often see this combination when you spread the flights. The trailing edges of the flights are a very distinct reddish bronze color.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

Chuck K said:


> I agree with Ramsey that Puddles is s typical feral blue bar. Puddles is the original wild type of the Rock Dove.
> 
> I disagree with Ramsey on Wiggles. I think Wiggles is also blue, but I think the pattern on Wiggles maybe a check. The wing shield is further darkened with black splotches that are caused by a gene known as sooty. Checker birds have a defined checkered looking pattern of black over the blue. The sooty gene on a blue bar will cause irregular shaped black blotches in the wing shield. It will also cause those irregular black blotches on the check bird to the point of making the checker pattern hard to discern. I think I see some of the defined black checks in the shield on Wiggles.
> 
> I also see the reddish lacing in the chest area that Ramsey is pointing out, but I don't know which gene is causing that effect. It is either recessive red or one of the genes for bronze. Blue birds that carry one gene for recessive red will show that reddish edge on their feathers when they are young, but it will be absent in the adult plumage. Birds carrying a factor for bronze will also show that reddish lacing in the young. However, bronze can sometimes be retained in the adult birds, but bronze is not always present in the adult plumage. To make matters more complicated when one gene for recessive red and a gene for a bronze factor are present, the birds can appear even more reddish. You can often see this combination when you spread the flights. The trailing edges of the flights are a very distinct reddish bronze color.


I am confused. Wiggles is the grey colored pigeon, perched on the food bowl. I thought that was the standard rock pigeon? and Puddles, is the one with her head cocked to the side and on the perch, she is the one who looked like the wild ones out side, did you mean she is the one with the gene called sooty? either way thank you so much for all the information, I will enjoy researching this and learning more about them.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Their color seems pretty common, it is the lacing on one bird that is different, very pretty. Some purebred pigeons do have lacing, quite striking.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Reverse the names in my descriptions. I thought the blue bar was Puddles not Wiggles. 



wiggles and puddles said:


> I am confused. Wiggles is the grey colored pigeon, perched on the food bowl. I thought that was the standard rock pigeon? and Puddles, is the one with her head cocked to the side and on the perch, she is the one who looked like the wild ones out side, did you mean she is the one with the gene called sooty? either way thank you so much for all the information, I will enjoy researching this and learning more about them.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

thank you everyone, Chuck. K and RamseyRingnecks in particular. your information that you shared with me is greatly appreciated. thank you. cwebster and spiritwings thank you for the compliments. I love my birds very much, so I think they are the most beautiful, special birds that ever lived, as any pet parent thinks about their kids, but it is always nice to hear it from someone else. thank you all -


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Genetics*

If you are really interested in learning about the genetics of pigeons the link I am inserting to Joe Quinn's The Pigeon Breeders Notebook is an excellent start for beginning fanciers.

You can download a copy of the notebook in PDF format for free.

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Joe_Quinn.html


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## RamseyRingnecks (Jun 18, 2013)

Thank you, Chuck!

I know ringneck genetics, but they are a walk in the park compared to most things.


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