# Excessive water elimination



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

My PMV survivor Louis is eliminating way too much water. He was found a twisted mess on the side of the road three years ago. His PMV was so bad that my vet said there is no way he can recover from it and suggested to PTS. Plus he had many bad injuries on his body.
He recovered great, had only one minor relapse in the past three years and is one of my sweetest pets. 
He always has droppings on the watery side and he does drink more water than my other guys. Anyhow, yesterday I noticed his cage was 'flooded" literally. First I thought he spilled his water, but then I noticed, after I changed the lining that he is actually eliminating all this fluid. His droppings are just green little worms and the rest is water. He is also drinking way to much, more than before.
I put a hand towel under his favourite perch for the night and this morning it was soaked.
Also today he just sits fluffed, I know he is not feeling well and I didn't see him eat today.
What is the deal with the kidneys and PMV, can anybody tell me? I know PMV affects the kidneys but can they recover from it? Can they go into irreversible kidney failure?

Reti


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Sorry to hear that Reti. One of mine (recent PMV) was getting through a lot of water, and the kitchen towel I wrap round her brick was getting quite damp. 

It does seem that PMV can cause permanent kidney damage. I'm fairly sure this was the problem with a couple of our elder hens (who had PMV several years ago) although I don't know that the excessive water was present with them. 

John


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Oh dear, that doesn't sound good. I'm afraid I don't have anything useful to add, but I'm so sorry he's doing poorly.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Reti, I hope your little guy has something simple to fix up. He sounds like a real miracle. Bless you for doing so much to save his life, and I hope he feels back to normal very soon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, they can have permanent kidney damage but I don't know the details. It sounds more like you've got an episodic thing going on right now and it might not be related to the virus. That said, the PD/PU (Polydypsia/Polyuria) complex might be self-reinforcing at this point and might cause its own feedback loop problem. You might want to restrict water intake and add an antibiotic in case it's something else. I'd probably go with Baytril first.

Pidgey


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Reti,

. I have two PMV survivors who excrete an abnormal amount of water. Some days are more excessive than others and they flood as you describe. I've come to the conclusion that there is kidney damage from the PMV, or perhaps uptake damage in the cloaca/large intestine. But mine are not showing any other symptoms other than the polyuria, polydipsia. They are both hens, are paired and lay eggs.

The fact that Louis is sitting fluffed and has no appetite would indicate to me that something else is going on and the water is only one symptom. I'd be inclined to go with Pidgey's suggestion and start some antibiotic. Isn't Baytril hard on the kidneys? Is there another that has less impact on that organ?

Margaret


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you all so much for your input.
He was fine yesterday even though he was eliminating tons of water, only today does he show other symptoms (being fluffed and having no appetite).
I think I will give him another day before starting an antibiotic.
Wouldn't a sulfa be better for kidney ailments? 

Pidgey, I am not sure I can deprive him of water. He has water in his cage but when he runs out he goes to one of the automatic wateres I have set up. I would have to lock him up in his cage to limit his water intake and I am afraid this would stress him too much.

On another note, PD/PU is a symptom of diabetes. Does anybody ever had a diabetic pigeon?

This guy is a true miracle and so intelligent and sweet, I hope he'll get over it.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There'll be a lot of sugar in the water that might cause a lot of mold to grow in the bottom of the cage if it's the equivalent of diabetes of pigeons. We had that one over in Enid, Oklahoma (relee's hometown):

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/help-i-have-a-sick-pigeon-15503.html

Pidgey


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Reti from , what I read 80 % of pigeons , which went thru (and survive) PMV will develop severe PU/PD, which can last for months.

There are several case reports of successful treatment of diabetes in birds, with daily injections of insulin. Successful - disappearance of clinical signs.
Hope , You will not have to go that road anyhow.As you say he is a boy, then he cant have egg-related peritonitis.....just thinking out laugh

He is so sweet looking bird.Wishing him looooooooooooooong live

Nell


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks. I hope too that this is not it.
Thanks for the link Pidgey. 
I could try some alfalfa anyways, guess it won't harm him.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Reti,

Have you tested his urine for glucose? You can use one of those sticks that you use for humans. In the UK they are called "diasticks" but there could be another name in the US. 

As the poops are worm like and "typically PMV" (which is a sign of constipation in pigeons) the most likely cause is that the virus damaged the kidneys in some way.

I am only now becoming aware of the very long term effects of PMV...one of our hens that made a quick and full recovery nearly 9 years ago has suddenly developed torticollis and is unable to fly. I have no idea what triggered it off after so many years. It isn't reinfection.

Don't restrict his water, that will just stress him because the thirst will remain. But you could try adding electrolytes.


Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am not familiar with the diasticks, will have Lee look for them in the drugstore.

After nine years your hen is showing symptoms? Wow, maybe it's just her getting older that triggered this.

I don't think he will drink Pedialyte but I will give it a try.

Thanks for your input.

Reti


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Reti,

I had a rehab pigeon a while back who had severe PU/PD. (I had picked her up because she was sluggish, and she turned out to have a raging gram neg infection.) The floor of her carrier was always soaked, and she'd drink every last drop of the water from her dish. At the time, I was worried that it could be a sign she was developing PMV (although she showed no other symptoms) and wanted to keep her for observation after she'd recovered from her infection, but she was too eager to leave, so I released her.

The same bird has been back to me twice since for rehab (treated once for yeast and the second time for fractured femur); during these last two visits, there was no evidence of PU/PD whatsoever.

This leads me to believe that she was drinking (and thus peeing) excessively in an effort to purge herself of the bacterial infection. 

Are you able to have a Gram stain done? If not, what about putting her on antibx as a precaution?

Jennifer


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Jennifer. The problem with this vet is, he wont do just a Gram stain, he'll do all the tests 500$ worth. And I hate to pay all that money to be told "hmmm, everything seems alright"
This morning he is acting more normal. I will start cleaning the room now and will watch him. If he is still "off" I'll start him on an antibiotic.

Seems like your pijie knows where to turn for help when in trouble. How sweet.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, we have Cosmo who is doing the same thing.

This is a thread I started about Cosmo: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=27057

The vet tried to get blood on our last visit but he became so stressed that she stopped and asked me to bring him in first thing one morning and to not feed him and she would try again. Something about his crop being full and she didn't want to cause him to regurgitate. She also gave me some vials to draw up urine. She said I could put down wax paper and let the urine puddle enough to get a sample. She said it definitely could be diabetes. When I asked her about kidney damage, she said it could sometimes take a long time for that to cause more symptoms. 

I'm ashamed to say I have not been able to get him back to the vet for the blood work. Several of you know about my own health issues over the summer and I have simply not felt well enough to do it. 

I had forgotten what Cynthia recommended about the sticks to test for diabetes that you get from the drug store so at least I can try that very soon. 

Cosmo is happy, maintains good weight, eats like a horse and loves his little mate, Honey. We have them in separate cages but side by side. I am still scared to death to put him back in the aviary because it may trigger another seizure episode plus I don't want to expose the others to anything. He continues to pass excessive amounts of urine and squiggly little poops like you have described. He never suffered PMV in the past and had been in perfect health until last October. I think I mentioned he is about 7 years old now and we have had him since he was about 2 days old.

I never withhold water because the one time I tried it he became so frantic I stopped. Although we had to keep water out of his cage for a couple of months to make sure the seizing had stopped, I no longer do that. However, I make sure he has all the water he wants and that is the last thing I do at night - change his water and put in clean bedding.

I'm hoping that I can get him back to the vet in the next two weeks since, hopefully, I am doing better and if I can get over these last dental implants, I should be able to take him.

I don't know if Snipes ever resolved her bird's problem.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I will have to go through Cosmo's thread again.
He is still not well, his towel is soaked and poops are the same. He did however eat a few favourite seeds.
I will start him on Sulfatrim first until I get the sticks and if I see no improvement I might start him on Baytril.
I also think I found a vet who won't charge a fortune, hopefully so will keep that in mind.

I am glad you're feeling better, Maggie.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

When Wingo had this problem (hers turned out to be PMV, but she was a new rescue) we had her in a cage with a brick to perch on and put a container underneath her tail which she obligingly pooped into.

Maggie, I am sorry that you are having health problems, I hope you feel better soon.

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Reti,

If you know anyone who is a diabetic, they will have a blood glucose meter, which is more commonly used in the USA to measure glucose. Basically you insert a prepared strip (cost about 25 cents each) dip the strip end in a blood drop and you get an instant reading. A jab with a needle in the skin of the foot will produce a blood drop.

By the way, attached is an article by Elio Schaechter from Microbe magazine, August issue about antibiotics:
Small Things Considered

The Microbe Blog (at http://www.smallthingsconsidered.us)

Elio Schaechter and Merry Youle, fellow writer and editor


Feed From the Hand That Bites You

http://schaechter.asmblog.org/schaechter/2008/04/feed-from-the-h.html

If you look for them, you’ll find them—bacteria that can feed on antibiotics, that is. Here, looking means to make an enrich*ment culture using a medium whose single carbon source is an antibiotic. Add a soil sample with its resident bacteria and look to see who, if anyone, will grow. In a recent study, researchers collected soil samples from 11 environments, including some very unlikely to have had any exposure to human-made antibiotics. They tested each soil sample against 18 antibiotics, some natural and some human-made. There were no zero scores. Every soil sample had bacteria able to eat at least one antibiotic, and bacteria from at least one soil sample were able to grow on every antibiotic. More than half of these talented organisms belong to the orders Burkholderiales and Pseudomona-dales, groups with large (6-10 Mb) ge*nomes that encode an extensive meta*bolic repertoire. The majority of the isolates were resistant to the antibiotic used in their enrichment culture and some to others as well. Overall, 11 different orders were represented, so they cannot be relegated to some obscure taxonomic corner. What to make of this? Obviously, it adds to the repertoire of bacterial bio*chemical talents. But is “antibiotophagia” just a microbiological curiosity? Or does it matter in the evolution of drug resis*tance? Is this one of our Talmudic Ques*tions?

Dantas, G., M. O. Sommer, R. D. Oluwase*gun, and G. M. Church. 2008. Bacteria sub*sisting on antibiotics. Science 32

So as careful as you can about using antibiotic, you may be feeding it instead of killing it.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about your PMV survivor with the "squirts" issue.

I wouldn't hesitate giving probiotics, a drop of colloidal silver, and alfalfa to help regain the loss of minerals and micro minerals, if you haven't already.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Reti,

I feel this is almost too stupid to post, but my hide is pretty thick and resistant to criticism.

In spite of the many posts from others who have experienced pigeons eliminating excessive water, are you sure he is eliminating the water from the vent, and not upchucking or regurgitating in? Or a combination of the two?

You probably are sure, so as I said, it is probably a stupid observation. But a towel could be soaked overnight from either event happening. 

I thought of his because the squeaker (*Minnie-Coo*) I recently lost was regurgitating seeds along with a lot of water.

Wishing you the best with *Louis*.

Larry


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## Big Boy (Feb 28, 2008)

Reti, I'm going through the same thing right now with my birds. I know someone else in Miami with a similar problem. Lots of watery stool in my cages. I thought the same thing about the water bottle leaking. But it turned out that its coming from the birds. I've got 4 squeakers right now with their necks twisted pretty bad. (The one that showed the first symptoms is starting to recover). 

I put all my birds on Aureomycin Sulmet combo.(I'm on day 9 of 14 now). Seems to be doing the trick. Even the sick squeakers' poops are looking normal. Now if their necks would only straighten out. . .


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Big Boy sounds llike you have PMV going on in your loft.
You might want to vaccinate your helathy birds. PMV is quite common down here.

I saw him several times squirting water. When I gave him his meds I felt his crop and although he did have seeds in it he also had a lot of water.
I am giving him Sulfatrim as for now and alfalfa.

I have a glucometer, will try to figure out tonight how to work it, it's not like the ones we have at the hospital.

Reti


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## Big Boy (Feb 28, 2008)

Reti said:


> Big Boy sounds llike you have PMV going on in your loft.
> You might want to vaccinate your helathy birds. PMV is quite common down here.


I'm pretty sure I've got a combination of both parathyphoid and PMV going on right now. I've got the vaccine sitting in the fridge but since I dont know which birds are affected I haven't vaccinated. Don't want to vaccinate sick birds. 

Jeff (P.S. The white bird, "Moby" I got from you earlier this year is one of the few of my whites that isn't sick. Did you vaccinate him?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Good news from here, Speckles' "relapse" was very short lived and today she is fine, is flying up to her nesting box with no difficulty and she has her delighted, cooing mate with his head under her body. 

I am hoping that if Louis' problem is related to PMV he will also make a spontaneous recovery.

Cynthia


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## santhosh_pigeons (May 29, 2002)

PMV totally destroys the kidneys if not treated at an early stage
.......some of my birds who recovered from pmv infections have had lot of watery stools for irregular periods........ this condition is seen more in birds treated with baytril..... baytril is a wonderful drug.......it has saved many of my birds in critical condition.........baytril is also very hard on the pigeon system......it weakens the digestive system of the birds as lots of GOOD bacteria are lost in treatement and there is no way to replace them after the treatement....... probiotics can help to a degree but it does not do much good......
i use ground spinach mixed in drinking water which helps the kidney recover 
i also use garlic and jaggery water to treat post infection...
this will help in some birds..... others never recover completely...... some even get too heavy and lose their flying ability.........some dont grow back feathers at a normal rate ........
it takes most pigeons atleast six months to recover completely and come back to form........
baytril is a bacteriostatic(doesnt kill bactreria but stops its reproduction) although even after treatement some birds carry the disease and never show any symptoms...... they only transmit and infect other pigeons ....and some relapse...... its a hard job to keep the disease in check.....
I recomend use of natural products and lots of patience and care for several weeks after treatment with hard antibiotics specially for pmv and salmonella related infections....
garlic, jaggery, spinach, white onions and also you could bring in grit and poops of other healthy birds to create a environment with more good bacteria.......
hope this was helpful.....
please do not misuse or underdose antibiotics


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> baytril is a bacteriostatic(doesnt kill bactreria but stops its reproduction) although even after treatement some birds carry the disease and never show any symptoms...... they only transmit and infect other pigeons ....and some relapse...... its a hard job to keep the disease in check.....


Sorry to correct you Santosh, I wouldn't if I didn't consider this an important subject... when it comes to PMV I like to make certain that the facts are as accurate as we can get them, as there is so much incorrect information around which leads to the destruction of pigeons that have the disease.

Pigeons do not become "silent carriers" of PMV, the incubation period can be a bit longer than two weeks, but it is not that long...they stop shedding the virus 6 weeks after the first symptoms appear.

I am not clear whether you are recommending Baytril as a remedy for PMV ? It has no effect on PMV because it is a virus not a bacteria.

Cynthia


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## santhosh_pigeons (May 29, 2002)

cyro,

I was talking of the bacterial infections that baytril is used to treat.
i was talking about treatement sideeffects of baytril......the loose watery droppings with green lines and excessive thirst and lazy attitude that is so often seen.
i live in india ..... there is less treatement available for pmv here except the la sota type water based vaccine which is useless.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the clarification, Santosh. I think that natural and homeopathic remedies are the only effective medication for PMV.

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Cythia,

I have a person who is visiting Ukraine this week with instructions to pick up some anti-virals that interfere with the DNA-mRNA replication process of virus. It seems that a person can purchase any medication except opiates and their derivatives, across the counter in that country.

Is there any way to get some to you without running afoul of UK Customs?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Grimaldy,

Will PM you...

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Just a quick update.
Louis seems to be feeling well again. He does all his ususall things, cooing, bathing, arguing, eating etc. He still eliminates a lot of water though. I am sure this is related to his PMV. The sulftatrim didn't make any difference in his droppings. 

Thanks all for your help. 
As soon as my regular vet gets back from his vacation(hopefully soon) I will take him in for a check-up.

Reti


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

*excessive water drinking/pmv survivor*

dear fellow pigeon lovers,-long story short: hawk attack,-one of my favorite customers,managed to escape a hawk attack,but suffered major injuries.-the tallons tore a 3/4 in.hole[2cm] in his breast bone area,below the crop..he has been on ciprofloxacin[30mg 2xdaily]-for the last week,i used betadine,bactine/superglue to sew him up.-he thinks he is now ready to go back into the wild,..no way,-I say,-still in the e.r.-he is eating well,drinking quite a bit of water[2-3 oz.daily]..years ago I named him red adair..time will tell if he survives,i certainally intend to try--.he was treated with probotics a couple years ago[pmv],and released after 2 weeks in the er.-I am afraid he might be a keeper this time.sincerely james waller


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