# Droppings just yellow irate



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

*Droppings just yellow urate*

Not sure what is wrong with Chloe, our young adult female pigeon. She has been to the vet and was treated for coccidia and was treated for mites also when we adopted her. She is molting. For the past 24 hours, she has not wanted to eat her pellets( chicken layer pellets she loves) and has been drinking water. Her droppings are just yellow urate. One poop tonight was yellow liquid with a short black straight tiny poop in it. I tried to hand feed her which she loves but she only ate about 8 pellets compared to her usual 40. I raised her room temperature from 65 to 70 F. Any suggestions? Am wondering what would cause her loss of appetite. When I put my hand in front of her she readily steps up onto it and loves it when I hold her in the cage opening so she can look out and play with my hair. She has been shaking her wings when I am around but otherwise her behavior seems normal. ??


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post a pic of her droppings? With canker the white urates can be a yellow shade, and with canker she would eat less and drink more.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

It's dark and they are kind of dried out but will try to get photos and post them if I can. She doesn't show any signs of canker that I can see.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

You can go to "edit" (an option available below the post) and then advanced settings, where you can edit the title and save it.
A pic of droppings would really explain better. 
If you have any pics and face problems in uploading, pls send it to my email id. If you don't have that I will message you?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hi! Just tried to upload photos without success. Will message you Kiddy to find out your email in hopes you can upload them. Thanks!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes sure, will try. Pls send them, PMd you with email id.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If the urates are fluorescent yellow,is canker in advanced stage. Other shades of yellow may have other explanation. Please post a photo as soon as possible, there is no time to wait.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster said:


> It's dark and they are kind of dried out but will try to get photos and post them if I can. She doesn't show any signs of canker that I can see.



You said she was acting off, eating a lot less, drinking more, urates looking yellow. Can all be signs of canker.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Looked in her mouth with a flashlight last night, looks pink. Am hoping Kiddy can post poop photos this am. It is still dark here but when it gets light will check on her. Have emailed the vet and will call to see if the avian vet will be there today. If so will try to take her after work.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am quite concerned about Chloe. She drank but refused any food this morning. She put her beak between my fingers and seemed affectionate but also shook her wings and looks a little puffed up around her throat. Will call the vet when I get to work to try to get an appt.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

cwebster, Sorry for delay. Wasn't home actually. 
Hope it works. Probably two pics have duplicacy(uploading error) 

https://db.tt/EDMnHzOD


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Also, canker doesn't always show up in mouth, could be anywhere in her body so you can't see it always.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I saw this kind of droppings at at leat one pigeon that died. I then suspected salmonellosis. Here is a photo with what they say is a salmonellosis dropping from Chevita website:










http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/digestivetract-salmonellosis.php





Now compare with Chloe's droppings:











It could be canker but salmonella as well. Maybe treating for both is a good idea.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If it were one of my birds, I would treat for canker and do Baytril for 10 days. If an antibiotic, then should also get Nystatin or Medistatin or something for yeast.
And hand feed formula. If not formula then at least defrosted warmed peas.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Kiddy, thanks for posting the photos! Just got back from the vet with Chloe. He found a very deep abscess in her throat and cleaned it out. He said up it may be canker or a bacteria. As you have recommended, Jay3 and AndreiS, he is treating with metronidazole and baytril. Does baytril treat salmonella? He didn't give anything like nystatin so will ask about that to prevent yeast. She still is not eating. He did a culture and crop wash. He said he couldn't see any protozoa. She is still not eating but had he gave her liquid with a crop tube. She refused to eat when we got home but is drinking. He sent me home with a crop feeding tube. I am hoping she will start eating so I don't have to force feed her. How long can a bird go without eating? I could give her defrosted peas or kaytee exact baby bird food if she doesn't start eating. She does seem a little tired and weak but she just had a stressful adventure. She was a very good birdie! I wasn't sure she was sick but am very glad I took her to the vet and that she should be feeling better soon. I almost put her in with Fiona this weekend but am so glad I didn't!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Hope she recovers soon. Pls keep us posted.


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

I'm sorry to hear she is sick, I hope she gets better soon!


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

Yellow urates can mean a disease in the liver also , so putting medication in the bird to only tax the liver is not a choice I would make unless it was prescribed by a vet after some testing. I know people on the Internet are well meaning but they are not a veterinarian, or replacement of.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update on Chloe. Did the vet show you how to use the feeding tube?
The formula can also be fed with an eye dropper, but must be put way to the back of throat, and over the tongue. It's pretty easy to get there with an eye dropper though. That's how I raised my first 6 babies. The formula would be easier on the crop then the peas, as they do have skins. But if you can't feed the formula, then peas would be better than not feeding. You may have to take away her water dish, and just offer it to her off and on during the day. Depends on the bird, but I had one that wouldn't stop filling his crop with water when he was sick with canker, and could have aspirated himself. So I had to remove it and just offer it to him at different times during the day. 
I would definitely ask the vet for Nystatin. If the vet is too far, he can call you in a prescription at your pharmacy. I had had them do that at times. Hope she feels better soon.

You asked if Baytril treats salmonella. Yes it does, as it is a wide spectrum antibiotic. Did the vet suggest salmonella? Or did he have an idea of what is wrong?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe is still not eating. She ate four pellets out of my hand then refused other food. I force fed her 20 defrosted peas. It was getting dark by the time I got home so didn't give her any liquid Kaytee exact yet. The vet showed me how to use the crop feeding tube but I am kind of scared to try it. She has had 3 doses now of metronidazole and baytril. Vet suggested it is canker or a bacteria causing the deep throat abscess she has but he did a crop washing, gram stain, and culture and sensitivity after he cleaned out her throat abscess. She is still just passing liquid, looks like light yellow water, no poop. She looked a little happier today but I am worried because she is not eating. Will watch for excessive water consumption. The vet gave actually gave her a great deal of water last night through the crop tube to "prevent dehydration." Will call him tomorrow to see if there any results yet. Will give more peas and kaytee baby bird food in the morning, either through the eye dropper or crop feeding tube, if she doesn't eat. Have read that giving a small amount of peanut butter by syringe may help. Have you ever tried this? Will ask too about nystatin. Would ac vinegar in the water help in the meantime?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Cwebster, even after feeding peas she isn't passing faeces(solid poop) ? Or you are telling of the time when she didn't eat anything?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Acv in the water does help the ph of the crop. Just a few drops. Also a small bit of baby applesauce works well. No, I haven't tried peanut butter. Sometimes I may sprinkle a bit of chopped peanuts over the seed which will get them at least picking at it if they aren't eating. They love them. If they won't eat those then I know they're sick.
Let us know how she does. It may take a few days to see any change.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

She didn't eat anything while I was at work. Tonight I force fed her 20 peas as it was getting dark so will see in the morning if she has pooped at all. Will get some applesauce tomorrow too. Before I go to work will give her kaytee baby formula or peas if she doesn't eat.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Ok,Pls update us about poop in morning and force feed if her crop is empty, still doesn't eat on her own. 
Wish she recovers soon.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe had watery green poop, pea colored, not very much tonight. She wouldn't eat breakfast so I made her eat 25 peas. Tonight she ate about 15 layer pellets but stopped and sat with her eyes closed. The poop on her paper underneath was watery pea colored green, again very scant. I think she is still hurting so may take her back to the vet. Will try to give her kaytee liquid with baby applesauce with a dropper tonight. Am wondering if the abscess has filled back up and is hurting her.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Think it was canker. Give her a few days on the meds, and she will probably feel better. It takes a while. Till then you can hand feed her. Her appetite will pick up when she feels better.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Sorry about your pigeon. I would start backwards knowing what it is not and go forward from there. It sounds like some digestive issue or liver issues from reading the small postings. Your running scared like I do when one of my favorites get sick--terrible. at these times we could make bad judgement calls. You took her to the vet so you know that she has no egg issues like binding or egg=yolk disease. She could be going through a heavy molt and just wanted to slow down with her eating somewhat to clear out her system. With the different techniques you are trying peas, formula, pellets, applesauce, and all the rest baytril, Nystatin, etc --- I would slow down and let her empty out. You know she is not dehydrated for she has been to the vet. With all that attention she could have a overload of e-coli or a overload of cocci and these motions will just make this worse. I would give her a day off and just make sure she has "her normal feed and water" and quiet. If she has liver problems none of this would help and make the condition worse. Just my two cents here and I sure hope she improves because I know you are very attached. Sometimes pigeons just don't feel good and won't eat for awhile for they just want to rest. She has been to the avian vet and just relax a bit and take it day by day. She I bet needs a good clean out so let her clean out for a day or two and see what happens maybe sure she is drinking water. Pigeons can go days without food and she has been well cared for so you know she is not starving. That's what I would do and sing a pretty song to her as well. So sorry and sure hopes she improves..


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

c.hert, tonight she ate some pellets but acted like her throat hurt. The vet found a deep abscess in her throat. Agree stress could be a big factor though. Force fed her only a few peas and about 2 cc of kaytee plus applesauce. She really resisted so I stopped. The vet drained the abscess but think it is still bothering her or might be refilling again?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Hope everything works out okay for I know she is precious to you. Keep us posted like you have been and saying birdie prayers for both of you...Spirits Bless.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

c.Hert, thank you!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I think since abscess is removed, it may be hurting. Don't think it could be refilling again as she is being medicated. 
She should recover soon, just needs some time and medication. 
Thanks for the update. Will pray for her and you both. Don't worry.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

cwebster, How many mgs of Baytril and metronidazole you are giving to Chloe twice a day?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Your welcome. Well I have a eleven year old in the loft that acts like its dying for a year now and at times will just lounge around and look sick because of his old bone issue. He has been checked for the run of things (e-coli, cocci, worms, canker) and comes out with flying colors. I decided to keep him in his loft for him to peacefully fly to the other world. When these pigeons are not feeling well they crunch up their bodies so they really look like their dying. Right now he is sun bathing outside on the shelf and this is good for a least he is not on the ground "yet". I notice that he still wants his treat of peanuts and hemp seed and lettuce so I guess he is what one would call a assisted living arrangement. He is just old and everyday when I go to the loft I look around for him and one day he might very well travel to another paradise. His name is Henry and he has outlived three wives. But now the younger girls don't want anything to do with him. That.s how it is even with our human lives. lol...Maybe this winter he will kick and be at peace. Catnip laid another egg and she is a "egg layer" and the twenty eight one this year after the other one comes out. At this time I leave her completely alone so I have no television buddy for now. lol lol...Gosh these birdies are worrisome..Just thought I would share some stories to brighten you up a bit...Sure hopes everything works out okay...c.hert


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

c.Hert, hope Henry and Catnip keep going strong! Took Chloe to the vet after work. She lost 60 gm in two days and seemed to be in pain. She had new white plaques in her mouth that under the microscope per the vet are candida. He crop fed her and we will follow up tomorrow. She is on baytril .35 ml 2x per day, metronidazole .15 ml 2x per day, and .33 ml once per day of fluconazole.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Sounds like a good plan and how many days are you to give these medicines.? Poor Baby sure hope she improves and gets well and normal once again....I would just give her the formula that he recommended. Pigeon toes crossed...Thanks for letting us know..


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Just fed Chloe by crop tube for the first time, with great anxiety. Finally figured out to not put the tube in the trachea hole right behind her tongue. Put it in the back of her throat and slowly gave her 12 cc of kaytee exact formula. Next time will be easier. All three of us are worn out from the feeding! Canceled the trip to the vet we had frantically made earlier today to let him crop feed her. Am hoping she didn't aspirate any as she regurgitated quite a bit. Will just give 10 cc next time. We are to give the baytril and metronidazole for 10 days and the fluconazole for 4 weeks. Will keep my pigeon toes crossed too!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Seems you are doing great for Chloe, cwebster. All the very best for next feeding.  
Thanks for sharing the dosage. Any ideas of strength of medicines what they mention on bottles like how many mgs/ml? If it is easy to find out? 

c. hert, I always like your stories. What about sharing some more as you promised in Catnip's thread if I have to remind you!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

When I have to tube feed I absolutely hate it. I find for the first few times if you give less than more and slowly release it. When I fill it too much I get real scared because it starts to back flow and man oh man am I depressed thinking that I killed the bird. My legs actually shake when I have to do it but people say it gets better in time. With the last birdie I brought it to the vet just to stay there and get hydrated and tube ted for a week to get its strength up and beside all of that I cannot see good at this time because of cataracts. Giving less won't hurt the bird if it does not backflow but giving more sure will..Put some vegetable oil on the tip of the tube and start the tube down slowly sort of on the upper area of the mouth and you will come across a slight stop and slowly easy continue the tube to get it into the crop. Do not force it at any time and pull it out if you have to force anything and begin again. Gosh its nerve wreaking for me to even think about all of this. Same stuff with baby kittens when one has to do this or even puppies for that matter...yeek....Good Luck Girl.....Hoping all goes well. I will try to get a picture of Catnip on here for our precious young forum friend and she is happily sitting on her eggs...Saying birdie prayers....


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Well the picture taking for you won't work at this time. I cannot seem to get the picture from the camera to the picture area on the computer. But I did take a few pictures and one with her sitting on the nest looking bad at me. Maybe later when I sort this all out. My camera has had fits at times as well--just need to sort it out Kiddy....Sorry...


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

c.Hert, we took Chloe to the vet fearing she aspirated fluid after it overflowed so will give less like you suggest. Am worried because she isn't responding to the three meds. The culture and sensitivity results aren't back yet. Will tube feed her dinner tonight. I have a beginning cataract so hear what you are saying. It is very nerve wracking. It is hard to see in her mouth. Plus I have trouble breathing so there I am shaking, trying to see and breathe, and trying to tube feed a bird! All the while reassuring her it will be ok. You are braver than me if you can do kittens and puppies.  Am looking forward to seeing Catnip too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If she vomited it back up, maybe the tube wasn't in far enough? I find a curved stainless steel feeding needle easier to use then a tube. If you go in from the birds left a little and go toward the other side of their throat (right side) it seems easier.
She will respond to the meds. She hasn't been on them that long. It does take a while. I think you are being very brave learning to tube feed her. I know it's something unfamiliar to you. For me, it's easier with someone else holding the bird steady while I feed. 

A lot of vets still advise the Baytril dose being broken in 2 doses, but that is old school. It has been proven to work better in one full dose for pigeons. That advice comes from the people who make it, and it works well. With one dose daily, she would be responding faster. It is actually weakened when divided into 2 separate doses.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Recent findings suggest that it is the total dose of enrofloxacin and not the dosing frequency that is significant in determining drug efficacy and therapeutic success (4). It has been concluded that Baytril, like other fluoroquinolones, exhibits concentration-dependent killing activity against Gram-negative and Gram-positive pathogens relevant for small animal practice (4), (5).* Maintaining sufficient drug concentrations above the MIC of the pathogen during the entire treatment interval, which is necessary for anti-infectives with time-dependent antibacterial activity (beta-lactams), is of minor importance for the fluoroquinolones (4). Goal of Baytril therapy therefore should be to maximise plasma peak concentrations (Cmax). This can only be achieved when the total daily dose is administered in one single application daily.* Additionally, once daily application increases convenience of treatment and therapeutic owner and patient compliance.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/baytril-enrofloxacin-and-calcium-a-good-combination-16934.html


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Fed Chloe 6 cc of kaytee by crop tube tonight. She ate 9 layer pellets first but acted like it hurt. Tried chicken layer crumbles both dry and moistened but she was not interested.vet said to give her less by tube so we stopped when she started to resist so it wouldn't overflow again. We put the tube in up to the mark the vet made. I think it is at least four or five inches to the mark.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well then it was in far enough. Maybe just have to feed less more often? Just what you need. Hopefully she will start eating better soon. Don't remember if you have fed the defrosted peas?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay3, have tried defrosted peas but she struggles a lot, like they really hurt going down. She doesn't act like the feeding tube hurts. Am trying to avoid where it hurts.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Today, Chloe ate about 19 pellets out of my hand. Usually she eats 40 pellets. She drank water and took her three medicines. Haven't yet crop fed her. She still seems uncomfortable after she eats but looks a little better. Will try to weigh her as she weighed 303 at the vets yesterday, compared with 359 when she was healthy. Hope the culture and sensitivity results are available tomorrow. Her poop is very liquid.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Crop fed Chloe 6 cc of kaytee because she weighed only 293 gm. She wouldn't eat more pellets or seed, just looked eager then picked up the pieces and threw them and looked unhappy. But she is breathing audibly with her mouth open. We put the tube into the back of her throat gently to the line the vet drew on the tube. Am terribly worried we are doing something wrong. She shouldn't have noisy breathing. Does this happen when you crop feed? What are we doing wrong? Will wait for a few minutes and see if she begins breathing better. Am thinking maybe she needs to be at the vets until she recovers. But the local vet doesn't have bird cages or an incubator and I'm afraid being out of her usual environment would stress her more. How long does it take for canker or a bacterial infection to resolve usually?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe is looking a little better. She just ate 18 layer pellets but then acted like her throat or crop hurt. Earlier I drizzled some liquid peanut butter in her mouth. For energy. She sat on my shoulder for the first time today. I tried to get her to eat minced peanuts but she wasn't interested.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could she be breathing like that because of the food that she brought up that time? Or did this just start? Do you wet the tube before putting it down her throat? Some wet with water, some with a tiny bit of olive oil so it will go down easily.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We wet the feeding tube with water. She ate 18 pellets for dinner so just skipped the crop feeding for tonight. Gave her the three meds slowly and gently. She was still breathing audibly. Think it is partially from stress and maybe food that came up earlier?


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

It's so sad to read about Chloe  the poor little thing must be in pain! but you're doing a great job taking care of her. I hope she gets better soon!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> If she vomited it back up, maybe the tube wasn't in far enough? I find a curved stainless steel feeding needle easier to use then a tube. If you go in from the birds left a little and go toward the other side of their throat (right side) it seems easier.
> She will respond to the meds. She hasn't been on them that long. It does take a while. I think you are being very brave learning to tube feed her. I know it's something unfamiliar to you. For me, it's easier with someone else holding the bird steady while I feed.
> 
> A lot of vets still advise the Baytril dose being broken in 2 doses, but that is old school. It has been proven to work better in one full dose for pigeons. That advice comes from the people who make it, and it works well. With one dose daily, she would be responding faster. It is actually weakened when divided into 2 separate doses.
> ...


Yes you are right. That was the reason I asked about the dosage. For Baytril they should actually get 10-20 mg/kg once a day for better response but as bottle mentions 15 mg/kg twice a day( as I remember) it should also work the same but they are getting much more than required. 

Still I think I would leave it on vet because he/she is seeing the bird's condition and prescribing accordingly.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

cwebster said:


> We wet the feeding tube with water. She ate 18 pellets for dinner so just skipped the crop feeding for tonight. Gave her the three meds slowly and gently. She was still breathing audibly. Think it is partially from stress and maybe food that came up earlier?


Seems the latter one but not sure. She should recover gradually.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

cwebster said:


> We wet the feeding tube with water. She ate 18 pellets for dinner so just skipped the crop feeding for tonight. Gave her the three meds slowly and gently. She was still breathing audibly. Think it is partially from stress and maybe food that came up earlier?


Sounds like you got it handle reguardless of if she recovers or not. Im guessing you are doing all you can. I'm glad to see she had a DR. To help you through it. NO ONE on this sight should be saying she will recover slowly. Members on this site are not veterinarians. (Wish we had one) So I'm sure you can make your own assessment with your vet's help. I hope all turns out well for her!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Whytpigeon said:


> I'll take that as a No. The breathing could be what you said or it could not be.


I said "seems" also "not sure" 
So I agree if you say "no". You are far more experienced than me. I keep learning from you. Thanks for that.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am worried about the breathing problem and bring the pigeon to the vet again the first chance you get because it could be somewhat aspirated. I would not fool around with a lot of different foods here just do what the vet said. You cannot switch foods at this time I realize but (personally) I would try to get the pigeon on a mixed seed diet. Those pellets are different shapes and could be hurting the pigeons throat some way because of its ailment. I realize that pigeons needs nutrition but sometimes our minds get worried too much about this and we feed to make ourselves feel better about the situation. Right now with the pigeon how it is I would tube feed and give water to it and make it very simple and maybe if your concerned like I am to bring it into the vet to tube feed once a day or something. I would stop the peanut butter and different stuff like that for now. Gosh I am worried for your birdie but I know that you are doing the best that you can at this time. Taking care of pigeons can be hard lessons at times and anyone who would say that this job is easy is nuts. lol lol...Spirits Bless. Wet the tip of the tube with veg. oil to lubricate it..


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Whytpigeon, I respect what people here say. Kiddy is very knowledgeable. Nobody here is trying to act as a vet but everyone contributes their best info and I really appreciate all input because here have practical experience. Update on Chloe: just rushed her to Dr Edsall, who is a great vet with birds, because her breathing was bad enough I didn't feel I should give her oral meds or crop feed her. She was angry, tried to eat two pellets but her throat hurt and her breathing was audible. All she wanted to do was snuggle but also sat puffed up with her eyes closed. Vet hospitalized her to provide oxygen and nebulizer and other treatment. Despite feeding she was down 50 g again. The culture and sensitivity came back. Her abscess was staph. He is going to add a new antibiotic and use injectable meds. Have encouraged him to consult with Dr. Speer in Oakley. But he is five hours away. I feel terrible because all I can do is wait and hope she will get better.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Just to be make sure the vet knows that he can go into the air sacs in order to get oxygen for the pigeon and she will be more comfortable with breathing as well. This is not a slam donk situation with that effort....gosh I am worried...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry she is worse. At least she is where she will get good help. Hang in there.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Seems again that she has aspirated and it was the right step to bring her to vet immediately. 
Really wish and pray she recovers. Don't want to see you in such stressed situation. I am so sorry you are going through this all. 
Just wish everything ends up very well and she recovers soon. 
Pls take good care of yourself too in this tough time. 
We all are with you.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Whytpigeon said:


> Sounds like you got it handle reguardless of if she recovers or not. Im guessing you are doing all you can. I'm glad to see she had a DR. To help you through it. NO ONE on this sight should be saying she will recover slowly. Members on this site are not veterinarians. (Wish we had one) So I'm sure you can make your own assessment with your vet's help. I hope all turns out well for her!



Kiddy was trying to help, and she wasn't sounding like a vet. She is trying to give encouragement to cwebster is all. 
Everyone has a right to answer to the poster. You can say what you would like to add, without shooting others down all the time. No one is trying to sound like a vet. This is a forum, and people are asking for help, so others are trying to help. And they do that from the experiences they have had themselves.
If making a suggestion, or sharing your experience is sounding like a vet, then what is the purpose of a forum? It is to share ideas and give suggestions.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe is still hospitalized at the vet. She seems a little better, he said. He gave her subcutaneous fluids, cut back the baytril a little, gave her metronidazole, upped the fluconazole, and gave her injectable cefazolin. He said she liked the nebulizer, is breathing a little better, and ate some by herself plus he gave her 10 ml by crop feeding because of her severe weight loss, 50 gm in two days. He thinks she might have aspirated a little fluid the other day or it may be a respiratory infection or debilitation. I hope she is going to be ok. She has started wanting to sit on my shoulder, the past couple of days, and is a very affectionate bird. Am glad I didn't put her in with Fiona yet although that is the eventual plan.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad they are taking good care of her. Hope she'll be home soon.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I know your heart is at ease now having confidence in the care that she is receiving and we will keep our pigeon toes crossed. This is a hell of a trip you are on and the birdie too sure hopes everything turns out real good for you. Thanks for being devoted and taking such good care of your pigeon. These sicknesses can be very very complicated so sleep well tonight and rest. Pigeon toes are crossed..c.hert


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dr Edsall just emailed that Chloe is not out of the woods yet but is doing ok. He described her as having been very weak earlier today. He nebulized her twice, gave her 17 g of crop food, and started her on the new med. Plus he adjusted her other meds. She gained 40 gm because she ate a little by herself too and because he gave her fluids. So I have my pigeon toes crossed, as c.hert says. Thank you everyone for the support. I love the little girl and hope she will recover soon.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Can you please tell us what antibiotic the dr uses on staph? It may be useful to know for some of us, including me.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, he initially gave her oral Baytril before the culture and sensitivity results were available. But she also has candida and a respiratory problem and weight loss, besides the staph abscess. Yesterday after the results came that showed staph, he also started Cefazolin injections. I don't know the dose but can find out. Don't know yet if it is working. Am so hoping that she made it through the night and that she is improving and will be ok. Will call when they open this morning.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Andrei, they use many different antibiotics for staph. Which one you use would depend on the sensitivity test. All depends on which antibiotic the staph is sensitive to. Each infection is different. So no one answer. What works on one infection will not work on another.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

cwebster said:


> AndreiS, he initially gave her oral Baytril before the culture and sensitivity results were available. But she also has candida and a respiratory problem and weight loss, besides the staph abscess. Yesterday after the results came that showed staph, he also started Cefazolin injections. I don't know the dose but can find out. Don't know yet if it is working. Am so hoping that she made it through the night and that she is improving and will be ok. Will call when they open this morning.


Any updates on her?


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

kiddy said:


> I said "seems" also "not sure"
> So I agree if you say "no". You are far more experienced than me. I keep learning from you. Thanks for that.


Thank you. I was not being/meaning to be argumentive. (Even though monitor reads it that way) I was just advising on making statements that we don't know the outcome of. Of course we all hope for the best. Hope there is an update soon.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. I was hoping that the doc would prescribe concurrent probiotics with the antibacterial meds. And wish they had sunshine at the vet's too. Good luck.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

probiotics are usually given after the antibiotics, as if given during treatment, they aren't going to last long enough to help anyway. They will do a lot more good afterwards.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Spoke with Dr Edsall twice today. He has done wonders with Chloe. She is continuing to gain weight, with crop feedings and eating some by herself. She is breathing better, with a nebulizer and meds. He doesn't see any more white stuff in her throat. She seems feistier, he said. He thinks she may be able to come home tomorrow night. I am so relieved that she is improving. He has done a fantastic job. I miss the sweet little birdie.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm glad you have had good news. Guess the meds are working. Hope she is home soon.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Oh I am so glad and relieved for you and the birdie...Good Job...


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

That's a great update cwebster. I am very very very happy for you.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am a little worried that we will have to keep crop feeding her. Plus if she is on an injectable cephalosporin, I'm sorry, but I can't inject a poor little sick bird. Hope we can somehow switch to oral meds.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Injecting them the right medicine with right dosage is not fatal but crop feeding could turn out to be that. Though I understand some can't inject as it seems painful, I am the same. 
I wish the vet could suggest something easy for you. Also it would be easy for you if she could be fed on peas but only when vets says because she had an abscess removed.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> Spoke with Dr Edsall twice today. He has done wonders with Chloe. She is continuing to gain weight, with crop feedings and eating some by herself. She is breathing better, with a nebulizer and meds. He doesn't see any more white stuff in her throat. She seems feistier, he said. He thinks she may be able to come home tomorrow night. I am so relieved that she is improving. He has done a fantastic job. I miss the sweet little birdie.


The white thing in the throat is candida, I guess. Did the vet tell you what he treated with? And if candida was present in the crop as well, did he used the same medicine or maybe more than one for candida?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> The white thing in the throat is candida, I guess. Did the vet tell you what he treated with? And if candida was present in the crop as well, did he used the same medicine or maybe more than one for candida?


The vet doesn't see any more white stuff in her throat.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, she had a deep throat abscess that he treated with baytril after cleaning it out, but it didn't go away. After she started the baytril, she got white spots that under the microscope he said were candida and he put her on fluconazole. These were in addition to metronidazole in case canker started it all. When she was hospitalized he added cefazolin injectable. But last night he said he doesn't see any more white patches in her throat. So I have my pigeon toes crossed, as c.hert says.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

cwebster said:


> AndreiS, she had a deep throat abscess that he treated with baytril after cleaning it out, but it didn't go away. After she started the baytril, she got white spots that under the microscope he said were candida and he put her on fluconazole. These were in addition to metronidazole in case canker started it all. When she was hospitalized he added cefazolin injectable. But last night he said he doesn't see any more white patches in her throat. So I have my pigeon toes crossed, as c.hert says.


Your vet sounds like a keeper. I would clear it with your vet before force feeding anything like peas. I have had those sit in the crop and not pass when a pigeon has been tube fed for a spell. Much success for you're pigeon, vet and yourself!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The suggestion of feeding the peas is because cwebster isn't really comfortable with crop feeding. Frozen defrosted peas are very soft and digestible and don't normally have a hard time passing through, so is a good alternative to crop feeding.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> The suggestion of feeding the peas is because cwebster isn't really comfortable with crop feeding. Frozen defrosted peas are very soft and digestible and don't normally have a hard time passing through, so is a good alternative to crop feeding.


Since you mention the thread maker I assume this is for my post?

With respect, I disagree with your statement , for birds that have been sick and being hand/crop fed softer food. The shell of a green pea may be flexible but it's fibrouse and thick and has had to be removed from crops on birds I rehabbed. (Not much nutrient either)

On healthy young birds and a use for progressing to move to seed it's a useful legume. If not able to crop feed then I would make kaytee balls until, the bird was out of the woods and eating on its own.


But of course it's really between the Vet and the caregiver.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have fed many sick birds with the peas and they have handled it just fine. And so have many others. Sorry if your experience has been different from that. It's just till the bird starts eating on his own. Enough nutrient for that. Maybe you can explain to her how you make the Kaytee food balls, since you have suggested that option.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> AndreiS, she had a deep throat abscess that he treated with baytril after cleaning it out, but it didn't go away. After she started the baytril, she got white spots that under the microscope he said were candida and he put her on fluconazole. These were in addition to metronidazole in case canker started it all. When she was hospitalized he added cefazolin injectable. But last night he said he doesn't see any more white patches in her throat. So I have my pigeon toes crossed, as c.hert says.


Thank you for answer. I hope everything goes ok but are you sure candida disappeared from crop as well? I had several cases when candida was present in mouth because was in advanced stage and I managed to clear the mouth white spots with fluconazole, yet the candida growths in crop could not be removed by fluconazole and some birds died, other recovered only after treating with high concentration acv solution. It seemed the small amount of fluconazole (the daily dose is 1 mg) managed to pass into blood but this small amount could not stop the rapidly growing mass of candida in crop because it has effect inside the body tissues, not on the content of the crop.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe came home tonight. Am not happy with how she looks. The vet gave her oral meds and she aspirated some right there at the vet office, he said maybe it went in her sinuses. He switched her from the cefazolin to amoxicillin which I have read is ineffective against staph over half the time. She was improving so I thought he would continue with an oral cephalosporin, not amoxicillin. He forgot to give me enough droppers for the meds and kept the tube for crop feeding even though he suggested crop feeding her meds. He lowered the doses for the metronidazole and baytril and increased the fluconazole. She ate some out of my hand and drank water but hasn't pooped. After she ate she kept adjusting her crop like it hurt. She tried to fly up to her perch but missed. And she sat puffed up with her eyes closed. So I think she is still pretty sick. If she doesn't get better soon will call them in the morning and may have to take her to Medical Center for Birds but hate to do that because it is five hours away and I'm supposed to work tomorrow. Am so hoping she will get well but she just isn't doing as well as I had hoped.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Disappointing news and my thoughts are with you. How is her breathing now and I would not stress that too much. If you cannot tube feed then don't because with that kind of care if she should have a full blown aspirate she could die and its not very pleasant to watch as they breathe so heavy. I actually aspirated one bird a few years back and had to wait all night to rush the bird to the vet early the next morning and this bird was lucky for my Avian Vet plugged into her air sacs and saved her life. I do not think that Vet of your could do that because of you being unhappy with him. Just take it easy and try maybe to feed the pigeon so sort like frozen peas so they slide down and not unwrap their shells too much maybe warm them a little but check to see that they are still solid as you feed your precious one. Feed some frozen corn too and carrots would not hurt the birdie either. It would feel good with its sore little throat. That would be the easiest for you at this time and the pigeon could survive well on this so don't get over anxious about full nutrition at this time. Is the bird drinking on its own? I sure hope so but if not just line the outside of the beak with a dropper of water and the pigeon will suck it up as you hold the pigeon on your lap---this takes time but you will get the hang of it and appreciate the pigeon sucking up all the water. How long do you have to give it it's medicines? Take day by day and give the pigeon quiet and peace as well as keeping it warm with no drafts. On your day off sit it on your lap in the sunshine in the morning but be real careful it does not get away....I am afraid of aspiration and in that case you might have to drive that pigeon to the medical center...I feel for you working and worrying all the time. Just take it day by day here and at least the white spots went away and this is good and I sure hope her throat abcess clears up as well. I do not know if the next thing is good or bad but I have done it and it seems to be agreeable with the pigeons but of course maybe in your case since of the yeast problems it might not be good but I am just giving you a suggestion but check it out first. I take roman meal whole wheat bread and punch off a piece and mix a slight coating of egg --very slight coating and make a ball pea size and leave it dry so that nothing is falling off of it and I slide this down the pigeons throat. It needs to be solid and not crumbly. I put a dose of medicine on the chunk of bread and roll it in my fingers and slide it down. Do not make the piece too large for this might not be good for you want it down in one swipe. This is all that I know cwebster and I wish I was there to help you with your pigeon....Try to get some good sleep and let the birdie sleep well too for she has been through a whole lot...Prayers and good wishes.....I chose Roman Meal because you can roll a smooth little piece in a ball and it sticks together well where the other breads crumble and could be bad for this idea...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Gee, I'm sorry. When a bird is on Metro, you don't lower the dose. You finish the treatment. I don't know much about what is or isn't good for staph. I thought you already had a crop tube. Can't you use that? The 1 cc syringe or eye droppers you can get at a pharmacy. I hate seeing them doing that crop adjusting thing. I know what you mean. Poor thing. If you want her kept warm, put a heating pad on the cage bottom under a layer of towel, and take out the perch.
Can you make a bread ball and put the meds in that to feed to her? All you need is one eye dropper to give all the meds if they are liquid.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

c.hert, thanks for the info about bread balls. Will try making them. Jay3, don't know why he changed all the meds dosages. He kept the crop feeding dropper that I took in for him to use and did not return it. He suggested I give the meds by crop tube but I found out when I got home that he kept the dropper that fits on the tube, that I took in with her. So I can't crop feed her. I don't have enough droppers to use one for each med because he kept one of those too. He gave me the bag with the meds and I should have inspected it rather than just trying to get the bird home. Not sure why he switched from a cephalosporin to amoxicillin after just three days either...seems a good way to get antibiotic resistant germs. She was improving but now I don't know if she will get worse. She finally pooped. It is liquid green.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

cwebster, I am so sorry to hear she doesn't seem good yet. Don't know what the vet prescriptions are all about in changing antibiotics so soon, lowering the metro dosage etc. 
It is quite hectic for you again to visit a vet 5 hours away from your place but don't know what else can be done in such situation. 
Hope and pray for some ease for you. Pls update how she seems in morning.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

It is still dark but will get Chloe's meds ready. Thank you everyone for the support and suggestions. AndreiS, am concerned about another staph abscess or candida in her crop. Kiddy, am trying to figure out if she needs to go to the avian specialist 5 hours away. Will see how she us doing when it gets light.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't know why you had to bring in the crop tube for them to feed her. Don't they have them there? You can get them online, but that takes time. Is he far from you, or could you go back and get them? Hope she's doing better.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe is eating a little but still losing weight. This am, she weighed 286 gm and tonight weighed 278. She ate a handful of layer pellets and drank water. She breathed bad when I gave her the meds one at a time very cautiously this am. Tonight, we got a new crop feeding syringe from the vet and put the meds in there, then 9 cc of kaytee exact with water. The vet mentioned that the culture results showed not just staph but also bordetella! First time he mentioned that! That would act for her noisy breathing. He said her meds--baytril, metronidazole, fluconazole, and now amoxicillin should address pretty much anything. Anyone had experience with bordetella in pigeons?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Something is wrong here but I don't know enough to help you. The testing must have came back for him to use the right medicines but he seems to be shot gunning this some but I am not there and I do know him and the bird is still alive which to me on how it has gone is a miracle. How long do you have to give it medicine. I hope you line up on some good probiotics when this is finished. I am depressed about all of this for I know she is not out of the woods yet. I am worried about her breathing and feel something is wrong but I am worried for I know that Bortello is very contageous and usually cats and dogs get it and they give vaccines for it maybe the pigeon caught it at the vet office or something. Some kind of virus I believe. Take it easy with yourself because I know this is a lot of stress for you just like it would be for me...Thinking and sending good thoughts and well wishes...pigeon toes crossed and there are a lot of them..lol


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am wondering if there is some way to improve her air quality. She lives inside in a bedroom to isolate her from the other pigeon. The problems started when she was molting, and her scuff or whatever you call the white flaky stuff went everywhere. We usually don't open her window because of the red mites and chiggers that come in through the screens and keep the door to her room closed to keep the cats out. Will try to dust and vacuum in there more and will try to keep her cage extra clean. Think the type of bordetella she has is an avian variant, not the kind dogs and cats get aka kennel cough or the human variant that causes whooping cough. Maybe if we take her outside for a while every day for fresh air that will help too? The vet said she loves the nebulizer there. Perhaps the respiratory infection is primary and the staph abscess is secondary and the candida is due to taking an antibiotic. Am just trying to brainstorm and cover all bases. We love our bird. She came from a place originally that was really dirty, with tons of pigeons and chickens so she may have already had a low grade infection that took over when she was stressed by the molt. Don't know. Do know we have to get her weight back up. Agreed after talking to the vet that if her weight drops to 250 it us time for her to go back to the vet. Current weight last night was 276 g. Will ask about good probiotics. Are there also things that will boost a pigeons immune system or stimulate appetite?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

If there is cold outside, I think she should be kept warm being sick.
For fresh air if the window can be opened for some time when there is no polluted air coming in?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ventilation and fresh air are very important for pigeons.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I use those window fans and set it on going out and it pulls the air from the house and exits out. Be careful not to turn it the wrong way in for it could give a chill to bird if it is on high. Always put your hand in front of it to test it going out. You could also invest in a air cleaner and they do a pretty good job of cleaning the air if you get a good one. You have to change the filter on them but its really nice to have fresh clean air and for yourself as well. Make sure the window fans fit you window so measure first go on the net and take a look at them . Mine is Pelonis Twin window fan and each fan is 9 inches' It measures 24 inches across and has wings on the one side to fit a larger window. It's about 13 or 14 inches high. I love them and every morning I put the exhaust on to push the air out of the room and then if not cold put the opposite direction on the very lowest level to pull fresh air into the room. It cleans the air out really good. The newest ones I think are the very same but they now call them HDX twin window fan. They cost about 35 dollars a piece and Home Depot sells them but they might not have any now because of winter approaching but I am sure you could order one from special services. They sell them other places as well. That's just what I do and invest in a good air fan cleaner as well it helps circulate the air and blows clean air out. Make sure your pigeon does not get a draft from these things. Happy Shopping.. Hope the pigeon is improving.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I also use a fan like c.hert in the window if I have pigeons in a room that I have designated for them in the house. But I open another window in the same room to pull in fresh air. That way it doesn't blow it in as it would with a fan pulling it in, it just comes in slowly from the open window. I like the fresh outside air coming in. You can get all kinds of fans on Amazon, even in the fall.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Cleaned her room by vacuuming and dusting all I could reach. Hooked up,the air cleaner. Her breathing seems better tonight. She hasn't eaten much but only lost 2 g compared with last night. We gave her the four meds and 12 cc of kaytee exact tonight. A couple of times she vocalized, first time in months. She still,is suck because she isn't eating but she is drinking water. Will try to get a fan tomorrow and will try to get behind and under her flight cage tomorrow to finish vacuuming. Am hoping we have turned the corner. She flew a few feet this morning too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Flying is a good sign. Glad her breathing is sounding a bit better. Hope she will be feeling better soon.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Some relief finally


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe is breathing fine and alert but still sick. Would not eat or drink water. Weight down to 271, so she lost 13 g since last night. We gave her the meds and 12 cc of kaytee exact mixed with water by crop tube. The vet is not there today. Will try to increase the crop feedings today.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wouldn't it be more accurate if you weighed her once a day in the am before feeding?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay3, I weigh her first in the morning before she eats. That is the most accurate, as you say. The vet asked me to weigh her again at night to see if the crop feeding adds to her weight because she is losing weight so rapidly.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Any food you put into her during the day will add to her weight.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We crop fed Chloe three times today, 12 cc each time of kaytee exact. She still will not eat on her own and also did not drink water today. She just picks up various kinds of food and just drops it. She seems ok, just run down. Breathing fine. Am wondering if one of the meds might be suppressing appetite. Do baytril, metronidazole, fluconazole, or amoxicillin depress appetite? Her droppings are green yellow liquid mostly. Probably from the liquid food and starvation. Once it was foamy.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

How long are you going to keep her on the medicine and those medicine mixtures I would check into and they all have side effects. How much longer do you have to give the medicines and no wonder she has foamy . She most likely feels very sick and talk to the vet again and and see if you can stop these medicines and try to feed her a normal diet little bit at a time with a good probiotic--gosh its a long time....Some combinations are bad and I would check into this a bit and talk to the vet again about when she can stop all of this and be fed more normally as well. Gosh she must feel sick...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, the antibiotics will make her feel sick and not want to eat. That is fairly common. But when you start a med, you need to finish the treatment, or the bacteria can come back on them. I'm surprised she is on both Baytril and Amoxicillin. They did do cultures and sensitivities right? That should have shown them what the bacteria was sensitive to. Would think it would be one or the other. Does seem like a lot of meds. How long has it been? She won't drink as much with you giving her formula. She would need the Fluconazole for yeast because of the antibiotics. How long has she been on the Metro?
I know this must be very frustrating for you both.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

She has been on baytril and metronidazole 11 days, fluconazole 8 days, and amoxicillin 3 days I believe. We can tube feed her tomorrow through Tues AM. But my significant other is gone after that at work until Wed night so if she doesn't eat by Tues AM I will have to leave her with the vet from Tues AM until Wed night at 30 per crop feeding plus. That is if the vet is there those days. Her droppings are the same liquid that we began with. Am worried because she keeps losing weight. Will feed her again tomorrow until Tues AM but will see if the vet is back Mon. as he was not there today. Am still wondering if we are missing somethin. Maybe her droppings need to be examined or cultured. The vet said yesterday that the meds she is on should treat anything she could have.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think he's right in that they have covered all bases with the meds. But think that all those meds are too much for her. The Metro can probably be stopped. And 2 antibiotics are a lot. How long did he want to leave her on the Metro? Unless she still has canker, it should be stopped. Fewer meds and she may want to eat.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay3, thanks. Tomorrow will ask the vet about discontinuing some of the meds. Also whether there are other foods we might crop feed. Is there a critical care for avians like this is for herbivores? Read that kaytee exact has yeast added and can exacerbate candida. Something is wrong or she would be eating. We only fed 36 g yesterday so she should be hungry. Half was water. Vet said he feeds 27 g at a time. But she is a very small pigeon. Will weigh her when the sun comes up.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Personally using my own judgement and opinion here I think you are overdoing it and her whole system is affected and paying too much attention to a lot of food for her at this time .Crop feeding is a life saver but sometimes one goes overboard and hurts her throat for I believe this is possible. Kaytee can be very hard on certain pigeons as well, also pellets. I have been trying to mention some of this with my posting . I thnk your vet has shot gunned this condition with all the medicines he could think of with having no firm diagnosis. I would slow it down a bit and give her a chance to rest as well as her liver to clean out if it is not hurt. When your sick do you feel like eating? At this junction my opinion is you are overdoing the situation. Give her peace and quiet and gentle food and off the medicine. Ask your vet about this and maybe find another vet.
Sorry I am so blunt but this is what I feel about this situation here. I am worried about your pigeon....c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Kaytee doesn't cause or exacerbate candida. I know Andrei says this, but it isn't so. The makers of this formula are avian specialists and know what they are doing. It has dried brewers yeast in it. That will not cause candida.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Candidiasis
A disease that is common in hand-fed chicks - is caused by a yeast that most commonly affects the crop and the digestive tract; but it can also affect other organs, including the respiratory system, the beak, the skin, feathers, eyes, reproductive tract and central nervous system.
Cause:

Candidiasis is most common in young birds, especially those on antibiotics, and adult birds with weakened immune systems. Birds on seed-only diets and/or with a Vitamin A deficiency are at risk. Signs of Vitamin A deficiency include feather stains above the cere (fleshy area above the beak) as a result of discharge from the nostrils. The color intensity of the cere and / or plumage may also be noted, as is a deterioration in the condition of the general plumage.

The presence of other infections, such as poxvirus or Trichomonas, smoke inhalation, stress or trauma also predisposes birds to yeast overgrowth.

Vitamin A promotes appetite, digestion, and also increases resistance to infection and to some parasites.

Foods rich in Vitamin A include: dark leafy greens, orange-colored produce (apricots, cantaloupes, carrots, red peppers, pumpkins and sweet potatoes).
http://beautyofbirds.com/candida.html


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe weighed 279 g this am, up 8 g compared with yesterday am. She refused 5 different kinds of food as well as water. Crop fed her the meds and 18 cc of kaytee. Will add a drop or two of liquid vitamins next time in case she is low in these. Will call the vet first thing tomorrow to ask about stopping one or more meds. Is there a particular probiotic that we should give her once the meds are stopped? She is alert and still looks under the weather but is breathing fine. Her droppings look like plain water with some yellow and green.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She isn't getting enough to eat. She should be getting that much at a few weeks of age. I know you worry about her vomiting, but that just isn't enough food for a bird that size to grow or thrive. Can you increase the amount a little bit each time, and see how she does? 

There are a lot of different probiotics for pigeons. The pigeon supplies sell them, and human probiotics can be used also. Not really sure how much of the human kind you would give. When I do use the ones for people on occasion, I just open a capsule in a half gallon of water. Maybe people can suggest different ones that they like. Pro bios is one, 68 soluble has vitamins with electrolytes and probiotics, Bene-Bac. Avi-Culture is another. There are many.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe vomited earlier today, as it was all over the bottom of her cage. Later she seemed ok and we crop fed her 20 cc of kaytee exact. Tonight I went to give her food but she was not interested in six kinds of food or water. She is bobbing her tail up,and down. Does this mean trouble breathing? She has not pooped in the four hours since the crop feeding. Am debating whether to crop feed her and give the meds or whether to just leave her alone. No bird vet is available until tomorrow am. Local animal hospital does not treat birds.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Vomiting is not ok. Possibly she still has candida. Can you try this: give her three times / day 6 ml of water with 10% acv? And perhaps is good to stop giving fluconazole.

Tail bobbing is a sign of respiratory distress. Possibly to have been caused by aspiration during vomiting.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh, I'm sorry. Have you tried giving a couple of drops of Pep Bismul about 30 minutes before feeding or medicating? That usually helps with vomiting. If she is doing the tail bobbing again, then yes, she could be having trouble with breathing. Do you think she vomited most of what you gave her? I would try crop feeding again tonight and see if she keeps it down. I would mix in the warmed baby applesauce if you have it.Maybe if you do that and give just the Baytril and yeast med. I don't use Fluconazole, but the Nystatin works better if given between feedings, so it can coat everything. How are you giving the meds? Is there a reason why she is still on the Metro? I really think that so many meds are making her sick.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We just decided not to crop feed or give Chloe her meds tonight because of the marked tail bobbing. Some of the tail bobbing seems due to anxiety because every time she sees us, we stick a tube down her throat. I spent some quality time with her and took her out and the tail bobbing dropped off. She undoubtedly already barfed up the meds we crop fed her earlier this am. We are wondering now about some infection suppressing her immune system. Maybe aspergillosis, which doesn't respond to fluconazole, apparently itraconazole or amphotericin B. Or circovirus, for which there is no treatment, you just treat secondary infections. She has hardly done any elimination since the earlier crop feeding today, about 2 pm, just a little clear pee that looks like water. She acts like she has birdie AIDs, with a staph abscess, then candida, then bordetella, and respiratory distress and total loss of appetite or thirst. Every time she seems to be doing better, she gets worse again. Does anyone have experience with pigeons with a reduced immune system? Will take her back to the vet in the am...hope he is there tomorrow. If she makes it through tonight. Turned the room temperature up to 80. There is a PCR test for circovirus. Don't know how they test for aspergillosis. Something else is going on.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis told me at times they do give the Amoxy and Baytril together, but they should be separated, not together. That isn't difficult if the Baytril is given in one dose daily, as the makers of the med say it should be given to pigeons, and give the Amoxy at a different time. Are these meds being given together? 
Guess you are better off with the smaller feedings. Did the vet say that she didn't vomit when they gave her more? Poor thing must be feeling so lousy.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Vet didn't mention giving the baytril and amoxicillin at different times, will ask. He gave her 27 cc at a time he said by feeding tube. She barfed with us at less than 20 cc this am. But didn't barf the afternoon 20 Cc as far as I know. We are letting her rest tonight, thinking since she already barfed the am meds, and has taken the metro and baytril for the original prescription, she should be ok for those two meds. She is supposed to be on fluconazole for 4 weeks and amoxicillin for 7 days and it has been 8 and 3 days for those so far. She just looked so relieved that no tube was going down her throat tonight. Am worried the poor thing may have circovirus virus. Wish Medical Center for Birds wasn't five hours away. Will call our local vet first thing tomorrow.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't think she has something horrible that you can't treat. I really don't. I just think that if the Baytril were given the way it should be, and the Amoxy given later, and Pepto given for the upset stomach which is making her vomit that she would be able to eat and gain some ground. Vomiting is making her weak, and not getting enough nutrition. But that can be fixed. Too many meds at the same time are making her feel sick so she doesn't want to eat and can't keep it down. Poor baby. Not familiar with Fluconazole, but always use Nystatin and have had wonderful results. But I always give the Baytril in one dose, and anything else at another time, so as not to make them sick and vomit. If you can feed smaller doses more often, and she keeps that down, then no need for the Pepto.
I know that I nag about the Baytril, but that drug family works differently. It is the peak being high that kills the bacteria, not so much having the level stay the same in the birds system at a divided dose. It doesn't work that way. Used to be thought to divide the dose, but they changed that. Many vets still use the old way, but the Bayer company who makes the drug said it should be given in the one dose because of the way the drug works. When using Nystatin, we give it for the entire time that the Baytril is being used. I usually give a couple extra days just to be sure, as Baytril is notorious for yest infections.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Appreciate the info about giving the meds at different times. This am she didn't get the amoxicillin and baytil together, just amoxicillin, metro, and fluconazole plus liquid food and she barfed all over the newspapers while we weren't home. Will still ask about a test for circovirus and aspergillosis. Will see how she is doing tomorrow. Have to go to work so may try to drop her off early at the vets.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I always gave the Metro at a different time too, as that can make her sick. I would stop the Metro now. Ask him about that. Treatment should be 7 days, maybe 10. I have had to use Metro for 14 days, but that is because the canker was really bad and you could still see it. If no reason to think she still has canker, than that should be stopped, as it can make them feel sick. Hope the vet is helpful for you tomorrow. This poor thing shouldn't be going through all this for so long. Good luck tomorrow. Hope you get some good news soon.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay3, thank you. Will keep you posted. It is still dark here but will go see how she is doing when it gets light and will call the vet as soon as they open.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Still dark here but checked on Chloe. She wouldn't open her eyes until I got her out and weighed her. 262 g down from 279 yesterday. Won't est or drink. Runny green poop. Looks unhappy. Will call the vet and beg from work for time to take her in. Will ask to stop baytril and metro and maybe all the meds. Will ask about a circo test too.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> Still dark here but checked on Chloe. She wouldn't open her eyes until I got her out and weighed her. 262 g down from 279 yesterday. Won't est or drink. Runny green poop. Looks unhappy. Will call the vet and beg from work for time to take her in. Will ask to stop baytril and metro and maybe all the meds. Will ask about a circo test too.


Have you rad my previous message? Try to give water with acv in the way I mentioned. It's effective against candida, which probably is the cause of crop blockage. I use it on daily basis at several pigeons. But before doing this, perhaps extracting the crop content and flushing it with only water (filling with waterthen taking this water out) would be a good idea, in order to clear off the possible meds remained there after vomiting.

As for your bird weakness, it probably occured because of too many and too toxic drugs. The drugs have an immunodepressing effect similar to diseases.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Took Chloe back to the vet and they again hospitalized her and gave her sq fluids. He did a crop wash and said her crop was full of candida and that it was full from the food we fed her yesterday at noon, so she has sour crop. Am waiting to talk to him tonight. Apparently he still gave her all the meds, after I asked him to discontinue them. He did consult with a vet from Medical Center for Birds who asked him to send her xray of her lungs. Am really worried because she is weak. Am going to ask about the 6 ml of water with 10 percent act that AndreiS recommended. Also I asked about circovirus and aspergillosis tests and vet is not sure how to order these. Hope she is going to make it. Just got a call from the vet tech who said the dr will call me tomorrow, he's going to do some treatment, she didn't know what it is or how the bird is doing. Am really worried now. They have stopped talking to me in terms of giving information.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You heart and soul is in this and sure hope everything turns out alright and sending good wishes and prayers..Glad your keeping us posted..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Depending on what she has, they can't just stop all the meds. But you would think they could at least figure out what it is that they are treating her for. That's what doesn't make sense. They can't do good culture and different tests now because she has been on the antibiotics. Have to be off them for several days in order to do the tests. I'm so sorry. Wonder if Candida or Canker causing blockage. Sure hope she gets through this. Thanks for the update. You must be a wreck.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Just spoke with Dr Olsen from Medical Center for Birds who is consulting on Chloe. He said she seems to have some kind of immune suppression because the yeast should have decreased with the fluconazole. But it got worse. He said her lungs didn't look too bad from the X-rays but she has things that look like stones in her crop. He said she might have circo virus but has never seen a bird turn around from it and survive it. He wants me to take her to Medical Center for Birds if she is stable in the am. I don't know how she is doing because I never heard from the local vet, who has done everything right, according to Dr Olsen. So I have to go to work for three hours tomorrow I guess, get the bird from the vet, and drive the five hours to Oakley. I hope I can do that. It takes four hours every morning just to feed everyone so I hope I can stay awake to drive that far, as I'm 64. Will throw some clothes in a bag tonight. I can't drive back the same day. My significant other will be out of the area until Wednesday night so we will have lots of hungry pets when I get back. Hope she is alive until am so I can take her. I asked about the actv but he said it is a weaker substance than fluconazole, which should have cured the yeast. Am feeling sad and hopeless but will do my best for poor little Chloe.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

When a bird is immunodepressed, viruses attack her / him easier, as well as other pathogens. In Chloe's case, the weakening factor I tend to think is the excessive medication. 

Antibiotics, antifungals and other antimicrobian medicines are all poisons aimed at killing the germs, while causing as little as possible damage to the host, but they are never entirely harmless, they always damage the host in a smaller or bigger degree. Not to mention that they may interact with each other causing other disturbances or nullifying each other's effect in some cases.

When there are several concurrent diseases, experienced vets (see sites like pipa.be) recommend to not be given more than one or two treatments at the time and if there are two treatments, there must be 12 hours between them.

And as most medicines attack the liver, B vitamin as well as methionine or other hepatoprotective supplements are necessary. In the case of fungic infestations, A vitamin and probiotics are necessary.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Not sure what to do. Think I should take Chloe to Med Ctr for Birds but it is a five hour drive. Local vet called last night late, said Chloe is stable, but they raised fluconazole to try to get rid of the yeast in her crop. Have to go to work to do training I can't get out of then will ask if I can get an appt to see Chloe and talk to the local vet and decide whether to take her to Oakley. My significant other says it is too expensive and that the car ride could kill her and that they can't do anything the local vet can't do. Am afraid if I don't take her she will die because we are missing something and because in Oakley the vet is an avian vet. Dr Olsen in Oakley said he has never seen a bird with circovirus get well but we don't know that is what she has, and he said usually by the time test results for that are available, the bird got well because it was something else or dies from the circo. Apparently it is fatal in birds Chloe's age. So am so unsure of what to do. Should I let the local exotic vet keep treating Chloe for yeast or take her to the avian vet five hours away? Plus I am tired, have to go to work and get permission to leave early, nobody will be here to feed everybody until tomorrow night, and I'm treating a sick frog. Any suggestions would be appreciated. She is still on tons of antibiotics, not eating, has runny green poop, and is kind of weak.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I am so sorry for Chloe's condition. I am not satisfied with your current vet too but for this sick bird five hours drive is too stressful and for you too alone. You have your frog at home also to be taken care of. I think if they say Chloe is stable, let her be there however I am not happy with them but very difficult for you to drive 5 hours alone. I am so sorry you are under such a stressed situation. Wish all of us would be together to help each other in this tough time.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Hope pigeon and you do well and wish I could take the trip with you in order to give actual support " win or lose." I have been there and have done that and hoping prayers guide you and the birdie for a successful outcome.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

*Sorry to hear about Chloe....*



cwebster said:


> Jay3, thanks. Tomorrow will ask the vet about discontinuing some of the meds. Also whether there are other foods we might crop feed. Is there a critical care for avians like this is for herbivores? Read that kaytee exact has yeast added and can exacerbate candida. Something is wrong or she would be eating. We only fed 36 g yesterday so she should be hungry. Half was water. Vet said he feeds 27 g at a time. But she is a very small pigeon. Will weigh her when the sun comes up.


Kiddy just informed me of this thread, I have been dealing with some issues of my own but have read thru most of them. First and foremost, heat for the bird when she is not feeling well puffing up and trying to retain heat will tax her system. Secondy, and I JUST went thru this and am awaiting labs for my birds, get some medicam, she needs pain meds, I have not read to this post yet that she has had any????? U will see a marked difference. If she cant keep food down or is compromised, then inject the pain meds. Will continue reading, wanted to say that at least. Cweb, email me, I have a few questions and want to compare your bird with what mine had, their poops looked the same....


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> Oh, I'm sorry. Have you tried giving a couple of drops of Pep Bismul about 30 minutes before feeding or medicating? That usually helps with vomiting. If she is doing the tail bobbing again, then yes, she could be having trouble with breathing. Do you think she vomited most of what you gave her? I would try crop feeding again tonight and see if she keeps it down. I would mix in the warmed baby applesauce if you have it.Maybe if you do that and give just the Baytril and yeast med. I don't use Fluconazole, but the Nystatin works better if given between feedings, so it can coat everything. How are you giving the meds? Is there a reason why she is still on the Metro? I really think that so many meds are making her sick.


If u wish to dose her for vomiting the proper dose is 1cc via crop needle of either pepto or keaopectate thanks. And yes lefeber's has critical care formula for birds. Can be repeated every 4 hours.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Cweb, you have gone above and beyond as I have done with mine, she didnt survive this. I hope yours does.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

CBL, have you tried to give water with 10% acv, three times a day?


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

We tried EVERYTHING and then some.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

CBL said:


> If u wish to dose her for vomiting the proper dose is 1cc via crop needle of either pepto or keaopectate thanks. And yes lefeber's has critical care formula for birds. Can be repeated every 4 hours.


CBL...you are misinformed on that pepto dose. The correct dose is 2 drops, or 0.10 cc as often as three times a day and 30 minutes before feeding.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Everyone, thanks for the support and suggestions. You are like family to me! CBL and kiddy, am very sorry for the hard times recently. Agree, wish we could all be together to help one another cope! Went to work for 3 hours. Local vet said if it were his bird, he would take her to Oakley so we took a five hour plus car ride, Chloe and me. She is alive but very sick. Dr Edsall did everything right, per Dr Olsen. He is going to give subcutaneous fluids, anti yeast meds, and pain meds to help stabilize her tonight. I hope she makes it through the night as I love her lots. In the am he will see about pruning down her meds and is hoping her crop will empty so she can get nutrition. It just isn't emptying, is full of yeast. He got the info about acv, thank you, AndreiS. Tonight he is trying to make her comfortable after the long drive, which should only take four hours but took over five. Will keep everyone posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hope they can help her. At least you know she is in the best place for right now, and they will do all they can.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

cwebster said:


> Everyone, thanks for the support and suggestions. You are like family to me! CBL and kiddy, am very sorry for the hard times recently. Agree, wish we could all be together to help one another cope! Went to work for 3 hours. Local vet said if it were his bird, he would take her to Oakley so we took a five hour plus car ride, Chloe and me. She is alive but very sick. Dr Edsall did everything right, per Dr Olsen. He is going to give subcutaneous fluids, anti yeast meds, and pain meds to help stabilize her tonight. I hope she makes it through the night as I love her lots. In the am he will see about pruning down her meds and is hoping her crop will empty so she can get nutrition. It just isn't emptying, is full of yeast. He got the info about acv, thank you, AndreiS. Tonight he is trying to make her comfortable after the long drive, which should only take four hours but took over five. Will keep everyone posted.


C, you are an angel, I wish u the best, the bird has the best owner and care, good luck.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When your pigeon is vomiting because of the meds a couple drops 30 min. before giving the med has always helped, and the same dose has stopped others pigeons from vomiting up their meds. It works honest. 

What you are quoting in the book seems to be for other problems such as inflamed intestinal tract or other digestive problems, and to soothe the inflamed lining of the tract.
But just to coat enough to have the meds not cause vomiting 2 or 3 drops works just fine. This is not something you would need 1 cc of, or have to repeat it every 4 hours or whatever. It would just be given when you give the meds that are causing the vomiting.
It has worked every time. Think it all depends on why the vomiting and on whether or not there is actually something else going on with the bird, that it needs treating with Pepto. But these would be two different things.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> He got the info about acv, thank you, AndreiS. Tonight he is trying to make her comfortable after the long drive, which should only take four hours but took over five. Will keep everyone posted.


But did he try? It won't clear candida after one administration, especially in such advanced case. But from the third or four administration it may show results. And that is after around 24 hours, because have to be 3 or more administrations / day.

I had tens of pigeons with this problem and as I said, acv is the only thing that works, if candida is not very advanced.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Another dosage for intestinal problems from Avian Biotech:

http://www.avianbiotech.com/diseases/salmonella.htm

ANTIDIARRHEALS: 

Pepto Bismol: Coats the intestinal tract. Helps to form a firmer stool. Dosage 2-3 drops in the mouth, 3 times daily. 

Kaopectate: Daolin and pectin coat the intestinal tract and form a firmer stool. Dosage 3 drops in the mouth 3 times daily.


This from Avian Web:

Regurgitation / Vomiting
At times it is difficult to differentiate regurgitation and vomiting. Both involve bringing up food and expelling it from the mouth. Regurgitation is a normal part of breeding / mating / bonding behavior. A bird that is regurgitating or vomiting will make a head-bobbing type of movement. Food will be brought up and deposited on the bird's toys or mate.
Bacterial, viral and fungal infections, obstructions, toxins or liver or kidney problems may also cause regurgitation or vomiting. If you suspect that this behavior is the result of illness, a veterinarian should examine your bird.
•	*Some breeders are successfully treating vomiting with a few drops of Pepto Bismol. 
*


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Update on Chloe. Spoke with Dr Olsen. Chloe is alive. She declines then rallies. He got her gi tract working so has given fluids and a tube feeding. Her poop is still runny green. She still has a lot of yeast in her crop. He stopped all the oral meds. All she is getting is fluconazole. I asked about a complete blood count. AIDs in people causes a low T cell count so I figured maybe a bird with circovirus would have a really low wbc. When she got a little more stable today, they tested her blood. She has 10,000 white blood cells which is normal but he said her wbc should be really high from all her infections so he still thinks she may have immune suppression from circovirus. Then, the shocker. She has avian plasmodium...malaria! He said it will take a few days to get the medicine for that. She also may have polymyxo virus, don't know if I spelled it right, because she has neurological symptoms. Have been reading, after a five hour plus drive home, that malaria can cause that in birds. He said the malaria has probably been in her for months. Will research this to see if malaria can cause immune suppression. Maybe the malaria came first. Then she got a cut in her throat from the layer pellets, and a staph infection in her throat. With the baytril, she got a yeast infection. She never had canker so the metronidazole really wasn't needed. Then the yeast got worse, so he put her on fluconazole and amoxicillin. Maybe the plasmodium is what is keeping her so ill? Just my speculation. They want to do a necropsy if she dies. I just want to see her get well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good Lord! The poor little thing is so sick. All you can do is pray that she will get well.
Lots of things can cause neurological symptoms.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

So he didn't try to give water + acv? Is harmless and attack immediately the candida. Sometimes you see the result shortly after the first administration. The bitterness and sourness of acv make candida lost its grip on crop's wall and start floating in the crop's content. I have experienced many times. In fact, I always have one or more pigeons on this and only in rare cases, when candida manages to get too advanced, it doesn't work. 

*
Please ask the doctor to try this! * It may not be in the medicine books but *it works*!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Cwebster, you are doing more than I could expect. I pray she makes it and your hard work and so many efforts pay off. You know nothing better could be done when you drove her to bird centre, now if she has his time remained, she will be cured, if not nothing could prevent when the time approaches.
I really pray she survives and you get her home healthy. You and Chloe is in my prayers and thoughts all the time. 
Thanks for keeping us updated.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

cwebster said:


> Update on Chloe. Spoke with Dr Olsen. Chloe is alive. She declines then rallies. He got her gi tract working so has given fluids and a tube feeding. Her poop is still runny green. She still has a lot of yeast in her crop. He stopped all the oral meds. All she is getting is fluconazole. I asked about a complete blood count. AIDs in people causes a low T cell count so I figured maybe a bird with circovirus would have a really low wbc. When she got a little more stable today, they tested her blood. She has 10,000 white blood cells which is normal but he said her wbc should be really high from all her infections so he still thinks she may have immune suppression from circovirus. Then, the shocker. She has avian plasmodium...malaria! He said it will take a few days to get the medicine for that. She also may have polymyxo virus, don't know if I spelled it right, because she has neurological symptoms. Have been reading, after a five hour plus drive home, that malaria can cause that in birds. He said the malaria has probably been in her for months. Will research this to see if malaria can cause immune suppression. Maybe the malaria came first. Then she got a cut in her throat from the layer pellets, and a staph infection in her throat. With the baytril, she got a yeast infection. She never had canker so the metronidazole really wasn't needed. Then the yeast got worse, so he put her on fluconazole and amoxicillin. Maybe the plasmodium is what is keeping her so ill? Just my speculation. They want to do a necropsy if she dies. I just want to see her get well.


As you may already know the antibiotic can cause a yeast over growth, if she gets that in balance she should feel better, but it could just be a side effect of the med but still has a bigger issue going on with her digestion. But I would concentrate on one thing at a time that is curable and now is getting control on that yeast. Harrison's bird food has a recovery formula i think would be better than just the kaytee.

http://store.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/RECOVERY-FORMULA-350g/productinfo/RECOVERY/


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Chloe died last night at the vets. They are going to do a necropsy to see what happened and may send blood out to test for things like circovirus. I am very sad and wish I had had her blood test sooner.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear that. May her soul be happy in the other world.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

So sorry and you did everything that you could do and even more. The pigeon is at peace now and I hope you find a peace in your heart knowing that you did everything that you could to get the pigeon well...Sorry for your loss.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry. I know how hard you tried for her. Sometimes they are just too sick, so God takes them. She isn't hurting now. Try to think of that.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I am so sad for you. Wish I could take some of your pain away. I am so sorry. Things aren't going well on us these days it seems but all is God's will, all is part of life and we have to just accept.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Wish we had discovered the malaria when she first seemed sick.she probably could have been saved.


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

My heart just broke reading about Chloe, I felt like I knew her from all your posts. I am very sorry they didn't discover the malaria sooner and that she passed away, you did everything you could do and I'm sure you would have done much more to save her. RIP Chloe ♥


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

So sorry


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the condolences about Chloe. Will let you know what the vet finds out from the necropsy in hopes it will help other pigeons.i really miss her. She was a terrific little bird.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

So sorry to hear this. I was worried when you described her tail bobbing. I didn't like the sound of that. With each experience comes more knowledge. Please post what the findings are. You are a good heart.


Just saw the other thread. Thanks for sharing.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Whytpigeon said:


> So sorry to hear this. I was worried when you decrribed her tail bobbing. I didn't like the sound of that. With each experience comes more knowledge. Please post what the findings are. You are a good heart.


See this thread

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/necropsy-results-on-chloe-shocking-78074.html


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