# Oriental roller in my loft. Ember?



## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

I bred an oriental roller from a recessive red cock and a black hen carrying recessive red. They normally get red offspring or an occasional black chick. But this chick was born from them 8 months ago. She is becoming more and more dark as she moulds. 

Is this an Ember?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Marcs said:


> I bred an oriental roller from a recessive red cock and a black hen carrying recessive red. They normally get red offspring or an occasional black chick. But this chick was born from them 8 months ago. She is becoming more and more dark as she moulds.
> 
> Is this an Ember?


 Hi MARCUS,Welcome to pigeon talk. I am not sure if this is an EMBER I would like to see the tail feathers and the major flights in the wing.In any event BILL or FRANK will come along and we will have an answer for you. ..GEORGE


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanx, I will make a new picture from her then. I'm curious about this colour because I never saw an oriental roller like this. Maybe her flights and tail are still in the juvinile colour beceause she's less than a year old. 
At the moment she has all shades of dark, grey, chocolate and red.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Hi MARUS,If you can it would be nice if you could post a picture of the parents of this bird also. ..GEORGE


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

OK, I made some pictures. This is the hen. 
Flash:









No flash:









Parents:
The black hen and the red cock are her parents. The ones with the yellow bands. Her unborn brother or sister is in de back LOL! Sometimes my pigeons just drop eggs.


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

To see the difference in colour. The young hen looks like chocolate.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks for the closeups. I'd say the odds are at about 90% that this IS a cinnamon (probably ember). If you had bred more youngsters like this, I'd have said it was an ash-red that daddy was carrying, but if you've been getting almost nothing but blacks and red reds, I'd say the odds of him carrying ash-red are minimal. The only thing that keeps me from 100% on the cinnamon (probably ember) is that the flights and tail are so light. At some point, I'd like you to pair her back to daddy to see what pops out. I also hedge at the "ember" because while one of the guys has pretty well determined that the Tuffs and Buffs from Dale Husband's family are ember, I'm still not sure that everything out there in Orientals is that. There are a lot of birds from various areas of the middle east that went into "Orientals".

Frank


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

Hi Frank, I bred 8 youngsters in total from this pair, 1 black, this one, and 6 reds. I will breed them next year because the chicks do well. So maybe another chick like this will be born in the future.
I live in the Netherlands so the strains and colours might be completely different here. I don't know. 

I do not think her father will be a couple with her because he has his black hen and is a strong pair with her. I do not seperate my pigeons so he will not leave her I think. What best to buy for her? I wanted an almond, but maybe that's just a waste?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Recessive Red Masking*

*Since this tread started I felt that all we have is a case of Recessive red doing a poor job of masking blue/black. So I have checked in Quinn's book and he states"Now that the reader has been impressed with the masking qualities of recessive red,it is time to state that recessive red usually does a rather poor job masking basic colors.It is quite difficult to get a uniform red pigmentation through out the plumage.Recessive reds masking blue/black,typically show bluish(plum color)in the rump and vent areas.The tail especially is prone to be washy or bleached out."* .GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Try The Almond*



Marcs said:


> Hi Frank, I bred 8 youngsters in total from this pair, 1 black, this one, and 6 reds. I will breed them next year because the chicks do well. So maybe another chick like this will be born in the future.
> I live in the Netherlands so the strains and colours might be completely different here. I don't know.
> 
> I do not think her father will be a couple with her because he has his black hen and is a strong pair with her. I do not seperate my pigeons so he will not leave her I think. What best to buy for her? I wanted an almond, but maybe that's just a waste?


Hi Marcs, I would try the almond here again I go to QUINN'S book and here is what he has to say."Recessive red acts as a simple recessive,but its effects are rather complicated. Recessive red masks the powerful sex-linked overprinting mutations of faded and almond,prouucing a near red,but in the case of almond,some depigmentation occurs and the recessive red almond(De Roy),though variable,appears somewhat between recessive red and its dilute,recessive yellow.With age,the typical flecking associated with the almond mutant begins to appear, and a somewhat reddish almond phenotype develops." .GEORGE


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

That also is possible I think. I put the pigeons in a genetic calculator and didn't get any offspring recessive red over black but if that's normal than this can be a recessive red over black. So it's double black and double recessive red in the same time? That leads to a chocolate coloured bird like this? Than off course that might be the case here with the black hen and the recessive red cock. The black hen shows some red in her plumage. A few reddish feathers.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I first thought DeRoy Almond*

But almond doesn't come out of nowhere.

It also looks quite brown and dad could carry brown. Is it in mid moult or is the mottled appearance fixed?

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Since Quinn's book was published, we've also found that ember is an allele of recessive red. So some of the "unimproved" recessive reds are actually ember. I still have a sneaking suspicion that ash-red is in the mix here as well due to the flights and tail being lightened


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Frank*



bluecheck said:


> Since Quinn's book was published, we've also found that ember is an allele of recessive red. So some of the "unimproved" recessive reds are actually ember. I still have a sneaking suspicion that ash-red is in the mix here as well due to the flights and tail being lightened


What about indigo and brown? I agree that the tail looks ashy but darker than normal. I haven't seen an indigo brown that I know of but I'm sort of imagining what it would be. The light and dark mottling in the wing is odd but brown almonds look similar.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

I used to think that myself - here's the only reason I'm holding off on it. One, when I first got some of the the Tuffies/Buffies I thought they might be brown. They turned out not to be. Also, so far as I presently know, there is no brown in Oriental Rollers (aside from a few birds in Utah that are bred down from a brown West of England Tumbler female I used to have.)

I'm still going with possible ember possibly with ash-red in there- doesn't look to be deroy (almond, recessive red). If this bird is a hen, I'd like to see Marc pair her with a blue or black cock to see if we get sex-linked youngsters (which would happen if she's ash-red). It might just be that the dirty, smoky, ash-red is making her look a bit "funky", but I still think there's something else in there -- possibly ember (buff)

I'd like to give you a definitive answer, but this is one where I think breeding tests will tell us more than all the thinking in town. And yes, it's possible that indigo is involved in there also.

Frank
Frank


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanks for the new answers. She might be in mould but if they are, normally they loose a lot off feathers and this one looks quite in tact to me. As a chick she was far less red and more greyish brown. Then she turned reddish and now she has these dark bronze like feathers. Winter is coming here and her parents are moulding. I will keep an eye on her and see if she goes trough another transformation.
She has no mate at the moment beceause I sold her brother. So I can buy any colour for her. They won't breed for 5 months now beceause winter is coming and I do not breed them in winter. They live outside in an aviary so it's too cold for breeding.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Interesting bird, that's for sure*

If it was mine, I'd do just as Frank would, take it back to dad and try to sort it out. The fact that it's a hen certainly increases the odds of some sex linkage but doesn't prove it by any means.

I've looked over the photos some more and it appears that mom is a smokey black as she has a light beak. I have no idea what this would do to a brown youngster, even though I may have some, my browns are mostly patterned or mottled.

The fact that mom has some reddish feathers likely means that there is more to her than spread blue and I think you said that they throw reds anyway, which makes her het recessive red. Is there ember in the mix as well? Hard to say but she does have some odd features of color mixing and patterns going on.

Bill


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanx. The mother is also a bit strange. She has a lot of shine on her and today there was some sun so I could make 2 pictures that show she is really not black. She has different tones of brown and black on her. Sorry for her state but she's really moulding at the moment. She's perfectly healthy 

As you can see she is not just black.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hmmmm......*

Mom may be the clue to the whole deal. Whether she is kite or just exactly what, I'm not sure but she does have what looks like bronze as a kite would. When you open her wing, is it bronze on the inner portions of the flights?

Kite and almond are used together to make the best almonds and Oriental Rollers are known for some of the best almonds. Could mom be one of those really dark almond birds? I don't know, Frank will have something to say upon seeing her side shots. If she is a near black almond with no grizzle and dad carries brown, we may have our answer.

Bill


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## Marcs (Oct 6, 2008)

I did not open her wing yet but I see a light colour on the innerside of her flights in one picture. Maybe I should try an almond on the hen and the cock on his daughter.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Makes sense to me*



Marcs said:


> I did not open her wing yet but I see a light colour on the innerside of her flights in one picture. Maybe I should try an almond on the hen and the cock on his daughter.


This should provide some answers, or at least clues to what you are dealing with and in the process, create some nice almonds besides.

If you don't breed your birds in winter (a sound practice, by the way), it is probably eaiser on them to separate them for the winter anyway. This gives them a rest from raising young and to some extent, even from laying eggs. The disturbance of not having a mate will shut down some of their hormones (which are already slowing down for winter) and they will stop laying eggs for awhile and possibly for the whole winter. Certainly, this doesn't always happen as hens can mate up and cocks can mate up but they are technically, still getting a rest as they are not raising young.

The next benefit to this is that when you want to pair them off again, you can easily choose a more suitable mate for them (or put them back with their old one if it went well) in a mating pen, when you decide to begin breeding again. They will usually pair off within a day or two, given the winter for rest. If a pair seems especially unruly or the male is overly aggressive, I will sometimes remove the hen (definately, if I feel he may injure her) and give him a different hen and it often works out that he becomes less aggressive and more of a peaceful, almost romantic mate.

I only mention this as you may have no experience at this from the way you seem to breed and I would like you or anyone to realize that this is a very responsible and humane way to raise pigeons. It can enhance the value of your birds and make it all worthwhile in many ways, not just monetary value.

Bill


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