# Question about baytril



## elizaisling (Mar 28, 2012)

So on Sunday I took my two ringneck doves in to the vet because they had had stinky poops for about a month - at first I didn't think much of it/hoped it would resolve itself. Behaviour was and continues to be normal. But then one of the birds vomited one day and both started having rather runny poops so I took them in to get looked at.

Long story short they were prescribed oral baytril. There was a misunderstanding, though, and I had thought for some reason that we were to give it once a day. But when I looked at the bottle more carefully today, I realized it said every 12 hours.

It's been about 12 hours since their last dose so I just gave them another now that I know better, but the first five days we were only giving it once a day. The bottle says to give twice daily for 10 days... but since we were only giving one dose a day for the first five days, does that mean we should give it to them for longer than ten days total? Is there any danger in this? Should I give it to them for say, seven or eight more days, instead of just five more?

I'd call and ask the vet but she's at a very busy 24-hour emergency clinic (it was the only place we were able to get them in on a Sunday) and I honestly think I'd get a faster response here, moreover from people who are more experienced with doves in particular.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The smelly poops are usually associated with Coccidiosis and probably the month the birds had coccidiosis weakened them and allowed Salmonella to install itself. Salmo comes when the organism is immunodepressed by other diseases & by prolonged medicines administration and gives the final, deadly blow.

There is always something better to use than Baytril. Is a general antibiotic and theoretically is to be used when you don't know the disease (because each disease has specific antibiotics to be used against). The only disease for which - some vets say -there is not better choice than Baytril is Salmonella but from my experience, injectable Lincospectin is always efficient and the treatment takes between 1 and three days instead of 10. Giving oral Baytril for Salmonella, from the words of some people who used this kind of treatment, may not lead to the wished results, in fact there is a chance for the bird to not be saved. 


Baytril is quite damaging and, like any antibiotic, is necesary to accompaniate it with Nystatin, a half tablet (a tablet has 500,000 units so you have to give 250,000 units) 1-3 times / day. You must crush this tablet and mix it with 2-3 ml of water and then give the bird to drink, if you know to use a tube for crop feeding. If not, you mix the powder resulted from the crushing of the tablet with very little water and absorb that medicated drop of water in a small piece of bread crumble and give it to the bird.

Also, immediately after finishing the antibiotic treatment (any kind of antibiotic) give at least for few days (ideally continuously) probiotics to rebuilt the gut good bacterial flora. This good bacteries are the main factor preventing the bird to falling ill again in the same disease or help the bird pass easier over diseases. So they are vital, if you don't want to have the birds falling into the same disease again and again, to never end.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Sounds like they were diagnosed with Salmonella by the vet. Did the vet test their droppings under a microscope, and weigh them? Sometimes vets are not thorough, and just guess the bird's weight, so the dose they give you may not be completely correct anyway. They can usually get away with it when the antibiotic has a wide safety margin. 

If it were me, I would just start giving the Baytril twice daily now as instructed for the ten days (not longer), and treat for yeast.

Do they seem to be improving?


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## elizaisling (Mar 28, 2012)

All the tests she wanted to do were going to cost a total of $600 per bird so we opted to try antibiotics first to see if they improved. If not we were going to bring them back for more testing. My fiance and I are students and don't have a whole bunch of extra money so we are trying to do the best we can with what we have. They do, however, seem to be improving - the poops are getting more solid and there hasn't been another vomiting episode since the first time.

The vet never mentioned Nystatin. Where can I get it? Do I have to get it from the vet? I'm relatively new to the city I live in (Ottawa) and don't know if there are any vet supply stores near me...


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

I would do the baytril as it says twice a day for the 10 days, give probitoics in the water, u wont need to treat for yeast. If it was salmonella anyway, they can be treated for even longer like 21 days, so no harm for the extra days if you have enough meds. There is always a window of safety for every drug. An overdose window, eg: worming meds there is a 10 times safety factor built in to the vetafarm worming meds. Im sure they will be fine, usually more risky to underdose or short dosing, as it makes for an antibiotic resistant bug. So, if mine, I would do the 10 days total 2 xs a day  Feel free to ask the vet anyway and leave a msge if have to. Thanks
CBL


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Great that they are improving, I think that's hopeful. I would keep them going on the Baytril and watch out for any signs of decline.



elizaisling said:


> The vet never mentioned Nystatin. Where can I get it? Do I have to get it from the vet? I'm relatively new to the city I live in (Ottawa) and don't know if there are any vet supply stores near me...


I use a product for humans called ` Nilstat drops' that you can get from a regular drug store. I checked, they are available in Canada. Its a yellow liquid that comes in a little bottle with an eye dropper or syringe. For the doves you could give around 2-3 drops each a day to prevent yeast. This doesn't get absorbed into the dove's body, so you cannot overdose.

Probiotics, though helpful for sick birds, are not useful during treatment with baytril or any other antibiotic because they are basically just bacteria that is killed by the antibiotic. You can use them after the course of baytril is finished though. Nilstat can be used during treatment with Baytril to prevent yeast.

Good luck with the treatment, I hope this clears things up for them! Your doves are so adorable.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Your bird could actually be sick with a less severe form of e. coli, not Salmonella and for that, a shorter treatment of few days with amoxicillin, a drug considerable less damageful, is equally or more effective than Baytril. If you could post some photos of the droppings I could tell you if amoxicillin can be a better option.

Many people here have Baytril in high consideration and trully is effective on short term, but after healing, the bird will have the immune system affected for a long period of time or permanently and the same and other diseases will find an easier way of getting a hold on her / him. 

So a smart, long - term management of your bird will avoid this drug and will focus on permanent strenghtening of the bird"s immunity by continuous (every few days) administration of probiotics, vitamins, calcium and methionine and by resorting to softer drugs only when necessary and as little as possible.

There is not enough realisation, even on this forum, of the fact that *drugs (antibiotics etc) are weakening the birds on long term*. They are poisons that kill the pathogens (though in many cases pathogens develop resistence) but also damage the birds in various degrees.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> So a smart, long - term management of your bird will avoid this drug and will focus on permanent strenghtening of the bird"s immunity by continuous (every few days) administration of probiotics, vitamins, calcium and methionine and by resorting to softer drugs only when necessary and as little as possible.
> 
> There is not enough realisation, even on this forum, of the fact that *drugs (antibiotics etc) are weakening the birds on long term*. They are poisons that kill the pathogens (though in many cases pathogens develop resistence) but also damage the birds in various degrees.


Andries, I do agree that antibiotics need to be used cautiously, but suggesting to discontinue use altogether in favor of natural medicine, or to use for only a few days , is non scientific advice IMO. As many people have pointed out to you, your use of antibiotics is dangerous. You don't give full courses, just a few days here and there, and this causes antibiotic resistance. I don't like to make a big point of this, because you are very devoted and under a lot of stress, and I love that you try so hard to save pigeons. But when people tell you again and again to give the proper course of antibiotics, they are right.

As far has been studied, Baytril can be a bit hard on the kidneys so shouldn't be used for extended times. Its also not good for baby animals of any species. But Lincospectin is also hard on kidneys and liver; it is from the family of older antibiotics that came before better ones like Baytril and Cipro.

There is a bit of swing back to the old antibiotics from the Lincosamide family , most particularly clindamycin because resistance is starting to occur from misuse of Baytril and cipro in animals. But those older antibiotics were even harder on a birds body, which is why they were superceded.

Regarding antibiotic use and long term effects, I can only vouch for 6 years where I still have many thriving pigeons who were originally rescued and save via antibiotics. People like John D who have had rescued birds for 15 years and more would probably say the same.

I'm always open to links to scientific studies that tell it differently.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The relevant advice so far has been 1) continue with the correct dose for the remainder of the period, or 2) start the 10 days again with the correct dose. 

The original poster does not have diagnosis information, so it's a sure thing we don't know what the treatment is for, so do check with the vet.

Andrei - you have not attempted to answer the original question. I am tempted to remove your totally irrelevant (to the question) posts, but I think they should be left as examples of the kind of response *not* to post! I will in future remove any such posts, however, if they do not address the poster's concerns. If you have an issue with that, take it up with me, *not on the forum.*


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Bella_F said:


> Andries, I do agree that antibiotics need to be used cautiously, but suggesting to discontinue use altogether in favor of natural medicine, or to use for only a few days , is non scientific advice IMO.


I didn't say to use natural medicine, natural medicine is nonsense.

As for the lenght of administration of antibiotics, in the case of e. coli only few days, or even one day (depending of gravity) of amoxicillin are enough for keeping bacteria at distance for weeks or months. In severe cases, including in adenocoli complex, only injectable antibiotic can help.

I never used Baytril for Salmonella, only injectable Lincospectin for which the standard treatment is 3 days, but I usually give only for 1 or two days. I used Baytril for e. coli before using amoxicillin and 1-3 days of Baytril was enough to clear e. coli for weeks. E. coli is a permanent problem at me because the environment is contaminated (and I can't decontaminate, because is two appartment rooms with furniture and so on) and every bird gets sick several times, then becomes sort of resistant.

I don't know why the Baytril treatment takes so many days (as I suppose one or few days is enough to kill the bacteria), seems to me like an effort to completely clean the bird's organism of the bacteria, which is not productive. Bacterial diseases are things that will return again and again, no matter how long or what kind of treatment you administer because, not like viruses, bird's organism doesn't become immune once was sick one time, only after being sick several times and a moderate contact of bird's organism with the pathogen is indicated for building the immunity / resistance, instead of a completely bacteria-free environment or bird organism.


Also, a long period treatment with antibiotics means during all this time the bird's guts will be deprived of the activity and protection of good bacteria, making the bird debile and vulnerable to all kind of diseases.



> As many people have pointed out to you, your use of antibiotics is dangerous. You don't give full courses, just a few days here and there, and this causes antibiotic resistance.


I never met resistance in the use of amoxicillin or Lincospectin. Lincospectin is known to have *close to zero resistance*, according to studies. There were some web links I posted some months back.




> But when people tell you again and again to give the proper course of antibiotics, they are right.


In the case of the antibiotic drugs I use, is not necessary. In the case of Baytril, probably yes. but why stress the bird with such long treatment, only to prevent the resistence to drug, when you can give a short treatment with other, more efficient drug? 




> But Lincospectin is also hard on kidneys and liver; it is from the family of older antibiotics that came before better ones like Baytril and Cipro.


I don't know which is harder, I haven't read any study.

What I can tell you is that my birds are having a good immune system, they drink water infested with droppings of sick ferals from outside (that enter the window to a sort of water "pool" which I put for bathing) and after drinking, they don't get sick, though the droppings are having a typical aspect indicating canker, e. coli, salmonella etc.




> But those older antibiotics were even harder on a birds body, which is why they were superceded.


If you are right, then the advantagers and disadvantages must be compared in the case of both categories of drugs. Even if they are harder on bird's body, the fact that they need a shorter period of treatment may represent a superior advantage overall.



> Regarding antibiotic use and long term effects, I can only vouch for 6 years where I still have many thriving pigeons who were originally rescued and save via antibiotics. People like John D who have had rescued birds for 15 years and more would probably say the same.


Me too. I lost only bacteria-sick pigeons that I didn't give Lincospectin and they reached sepsis.






John, I wrote this post before reading your own one. Act as you consider opportune. I just try to be helpful for the birds and I'm going to do this in the measure I'm permitted. For me, helping birds is a conscience (moral) problem so if you have the impression that I'm sort of insubordinated or disrespectful, is not the case.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Yeah, OK, but please address the actual poster's concerns rather than turn threads into a debate which doesn't come close to an answer. I think it is great that you do help birds, but going off on these tangents doesn't really help the birds in question. So, please, no more on this particular topic.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

.

""Probiotics, though helpful for sick birds, are not useful during treatment with baytril or any other antibiotic because they are basically just bacteria that is killed by the antibiotic. You can use them after the course of baytril is finished though. Nilstat can be used during treatment with Baytril to prevent yeast.'''

This comment is incorrect. I treated my birds with probiotics on the direction of a vet while on baytril medication and it was added TO the medicated water during the entire course of the treatment. (up until then the meds were not as effective) It was clearly a tsn turning point in the health of my birds. Once I did that, I never had a problem again with the birds re occurring illness. 
You may be thinking of the cycline family of drugs and that you would be correct about, not supposed to give calcium products with as it blocks absorption of the meds. 

Baytril is a 'floxacin' family and fine to give probios with. Hope this helps.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Andrei has no clue. 
If the bird were mine, I would start the treatment over again, as you under dosed. Give treatment for 10 days. And get the Nilstat drops that Bella mentioned. Not sure if you need to get that from the vet or not. Or Nystatin from the vet. Just call the vet and tell them you need the med to prevent yeast from the antibiotic. Actually Baytril is a good wide spectrum drug. Andrei never gives anything for long enough periods of time, and that is why it always returns. That will also make it resistant to the drug. No idea why he doesn't listen about that and continues to tell others to do the same.
As was also mentioned, Pro biotics should be given for a few days after the treatment, as the job of the Baytril is to kill bacteria, which it does, both good and bad. Probiotics are good gut bacteria, and would just be killed off by the drug.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Jay I gotta tell ya, Im going with the vet on the probiotic thing, my birds were getting sick and I was medicating the full dosage and they kept recurring, when a vet from the U.S. told me to give probiotic with the meds, it made the entire difference and I have never seen illness in my birds again. As i said in previous post, give with for the baytril, that family of drug is ok with it and to NOT have to give an anti yeast drug would be a bonus and my treatment of choice. Now all the info is given and the person will have to decide for themselves, Im gonna stand down now because I feel that the back and forth with contradicting info may just confuse the person asking for help and I am talking from total good and effective experience that got my ailing birds right once and for all  

That said, Jay3/s way will work, with probios after the fact but I would omit the nystatin.
Oops forgot to mention this elaboration of Jays comment of the meds killing all bacteria good and bad, which is true, thus the more reason to replenish the good daily after it gets killed by the meds, as I said it made a world of difference in my birds  You can wait till after all the meds are done but run the risk of the yeast. When mine were struggling, I noted on the meds their poops would tighten up a bit, then get loose again and the birds appearded dull and lethargic. Two days with probiotics in with the meds and it was a HUGE turnaround and I would never give meds without the probio support unless it was the tetracylcine family of drugs, then you cannot. Hope this all makes sense and helps in the long run.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jay - no need to be rude. Cease and desist&#55357;&#56860;please express your opinions and let others have their say. Thank you!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You are right of course. I apologize for rudeness.
If complete course of drug is not given, then you are helping to make the bacteria resistant to the drug, and you haven't killed it, but just knocked it down a bit. It comes back stronger next time. Same as with us, when we are told to finish the whole 10 days of an antibiotic, even if we are feeling better after 3 or 4 days. Because if we don't finish it, then we haven't gotten rid of it and it comes back.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Yes listen to what Jay is saying, the entire course is SO important.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Dr. Colin Walker:



> Treating pigeons with ‘Baytril’, even healthy ones, for more than 4 days almost invariably causes a yeast infection (often called ‘thrush’). There are always low numbers of yeasts in the bowels of pigeons. Their numbers are kept in check by the normal ‘good’ bacteria in the bowel. ‘Baytril’ kills many of these. With nothing to keep them in check, the yeasts quickly multiply up leading to the development of green and sometimes watery droppings and potentially a loss of race form.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Jay. Great advise on use of drug treatment.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

CBL said:


> J
> 
> Two days with probiotics in with the meds and it was a HUGE turnaround and I would never give meds without the probio support unless it was the tetracylcine family of drugs, then you cannot. H


With tetracyclines, grit is what is supposed to be withheld as it interferes with the effectiveness of the drug (nothing to do with probiotics).

Probiotics are bacteria and its well known that antibiotics kill all bacteria. You use them instead of antibiotics (say, as support during a viral outbreak) or after antiobiotics course had completed..

This is what Collin walker says about it:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/melbournebirdvet/Articles/probiotics_bird.html

When to use probiotics:

After any stress - Stress predictably disrupts the population of bacteria found in the bowel with the beneficial bacteria being the first ones to be lost. Once these beneficial bacteria are removed, an opening is created for an overgrowth of disease causing bacteria or yeasts. This can result in diarrhoea, decreased appetite and a vulnerability to disease. Probiotics restore the balance of beneficial to non-beneficial bacteria. They are best given as soon as possible after the stress or just before the time of the stress. By doing so, disease problems may be avoided. 

During breeding and moulting – Often, despite the best of care, breeding or moulting birds can become “run down”. Probiotic use is likely to protect the parents and, during breeding, the babies from disease. 

Following purchase and transport – Catching and confinement can be extremely stressful particularly in naturally nervous species. Interrupted feeding and drinking patterns provide further physiological stress.

*Following antibiotic use* – Many antibiotics not only target disease-causing bacteria, but also kill the beneficial bacteria of the bowel. When antibiotic treatment ceases, the bowel can re-populate with bacteria from the birds’ immediate environment. Probiotics can help protect the birds from disease during this time. 

After fledging – Less disease can be expected after weaning if birds are probiotic-supplemented until they are feeding properly and have established themselves in the aviary.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> If complete course of drug is not given, then you are helping to make the bacteria resistant to the drug, and you haven't killed it, but just knocked it down a bit. It comes back stronger next time. Same as with us, when we are told to finish the whole 10 days of an antibiotic, even if we are feeling better after 3 or 4 days. Because if we don't finish it, then we haven't gotten rid of it and it comes back.


Jay is absolutely right, I really hope this advice is getting through because she's patiently mentioned this over and over, and ignored every time.

When you give a short course of antibiotics, if it the right one for the illness, yes, you kill most of the bacteria (or parasites). Then the animal/person will seem well. But meanwhile the resistant bacteria is left to multiply, and the disease overall will become non-receptive to the same drugs, since its made up of resistant organisms.

In the long run, it has resulted in bacterial diseases that are non responsive to drugs, and this is what we all need to help avoid. Its a problem for people as well as animals.

What we want to ultimately avoid is having no more effective medicine for our cherished birds and families. Its that important an issue.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thank you for the great info John and Bella. I hope many see this and remember it. Many times probiotics are useful, but not sure all know about it. 

Yes, it is the calcium that must be pulled during use with cyclines, and actually should also be pulled with Baytril, which many do not know. Not just grit, but any form of calcium. We have very hard water here, which is good for the birds as it contains lots of calcium, but bad when using those drugs. At those times, I use distilled water which I keep on hand.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Just telling ya what a vet told me, what I did, what worked, my birds have never been healthier and if there is ANY calcium product within the probiotic or diary that is supposed to interfere with uptake, then it is not to be used with cycline of meds. Either way, I dont care, I only care that what the vet said worked on my birds and I would do it again in a heartbeat. As I said before. To each their own  Hope it all works out for the person who started this thread. What I find surprising is all the comments about the vet being wrong by what he told me AND it all worked so this is confusing to me is all the skepticism of what ACTUALLY effective. Im sure the vet knows medicine and there are general guidelines and often exceptions are made, medicine and opinions vary constantly between scientists and specialists all the time and this is one good exception that worked like a charm.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Actually, according to the maker of baytril, they have determined it is more effective when given as a one time a day dose and not just for pigeons. Most vets are used to the old way of dosing and haven't kept up with the new protocol. [ It's not very new really. Bayer changed dosing recommendations a decade ago.]


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

CBL said:


> What I find surprising is all the comments about the vet being wrong by what he told me AND it all worked so this is confusing to me is all the skepticism of what ACTUALLY effective. Im sure the vet knows medicine and there are general guidelines and often exceptions are made, medicine and opinions vary constantly between scientists and specialists all the time and this is one good exception that worked like a charm.


I'm definitely interested in your experiences CBL, and a big fan of probiotics. What I'm wondering if the positive effects you saw were, firstly, the result of the course of antibiotics, and then the positve effect of the probiotics afterwards, or did you stop giving probiotics after the Baytril was finished?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Actually, according to the maker of baytril, they have determined it is more effective when given as a one time a day dose and not just for pigeons. Most vets are used to the old way of dosing and haven't kept up with the new protocol. [ It's not very new really. Bayer changed dosing recommendations a decade ago.]


Well spotted Charis! You're right, the dose on bayer's website is different to the harrison's Avian formulary you can find on the net, which is probably what vets use. I noticed the dose is tad lower too, 10-20mg/kg once day, not 15mg/kg twice a day like in the formulary. 

Really grateful for the info, thanks!


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Bella here is the full story. My birds were mostly rescues and they came to me VERY sick, one died, I couldnt save it. So I was told it was likely salmonella and I treated for such. I did the full duration at the time as advised of 7 to 10 days. NO probiotics, the birds kept getting sick every 2 months and dying, like clockwork. I lost about 6 birds in all, once the symptoms came there was NO curing them. I freaked, called my friend in the states had him give the symptoms to his vet, he emailed me back and I had not changed the meds, I had always used baytril, NEVER did any of them get fungus or candida or yeast, but they would not get better for long. So the vet told me to give the same ol baytril but this time to give a HORSE probiotic, which he named but instead I gave the bird probiotic Primalac. They turned around in TWO days and I have never looked back, none sick since. I continue to give probiotics in the water a few times a week. So the short answer is this, the drug was the same one as had failed at least 4 times prior, the ONLY dif was the inclusion of the probiotics IN the same medicated water. The poops improved up high and tight and the birds immediately picked up and were not lethargic anymore, the transformation was incredible. So it could not have been anything other than the addition of the probiotic. Since then I had their fecals done twice, once at vet in house and once I sent to the U.K. for culture. 3 times cheaper there than in my own country if you can imagine. That is why I really dont care what anyone says, I KNOW what worked and continues to work, my birds are MINT.  Couldnt be happier. I hope the best for you and yours too  Also forgot to mention the fecals came back neg for parasites and min E. coli non pathogenic so no treatment.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Bella_F said:


> Well spotted Charis! You're right, the dose on bayer's website is different to the harrison's Avian formulary you can find on the net, which is probably what vets use. I noticed the dose is tad lower too, 10-20mg/kg once day, not 15mg/kg twice a day like in the formulary.
> 
> Really grateful for the info, thanks!


Can depend on the strength. I had injectable that was 50mg/ml. You can get half dose too. Or you get in in a %. It can be confusing. The injectable differs from the one in the water or the powder that you can get in 5 or 10%. You basically have a guideline and depending on the bacteria, can be either every 12 or 24 hours or a loading dose or bla bla bla, there are no cut and dried answers in meds. Even from one vet to another, they will differ in opinion of how much or how long. As long as it works. I was told by different books, breeders, vets. Give the meds for as much as 3 more days AFTER all symptoms disappear. 
I have seen amox with a RANGE of dosage from 1500 to 3000mg per litre of water depending on how severe the infection is so Im sure with all drugs there are variations. Have also seen that with the metronidazole or Ranidazole you can give double the dose for the first 3 days then half the dose for the following 7, some of the instructions are crazy. Im sure its to knock down the majority of the bugs in severe cases the normal dose when the acute danger has passed. 
In humans I remember them back in the day giving double dose and calling it a loading dose, of two pills for the first dose then singles there after. Im saying dont drive yourselves crazy with being sticklers about exact amounts. There are built in safety margins.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks CBL, its really good to hear about how you overcame that illness, and congrats too- I know how sad and frustrating it feels when they keep dropping off in spite of your best efforts. 

Hope you don't mind me asking another question, did you use the injectible baytril for the first few times, or only in the last time when it worked? As I mentioned in another thread, I lost two lovely young birds this year due to suspected salmonella, and I'm very open to finding a way to treat the flock . If injectibles are better, I'd like to try that. I have them on a vetafarm probiotic at the moment, and I've been good with keeping parasites in check like cocci, canker & worms. They are looking ok, except for the mother of the babies who isn't quite right . They've also been under a lot of stress from moving house this year.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Bella no problem at all. Ok so the birds that were sick and dying that showed symptoms could not be saved after the fact, they were getting baytril via mouth of the injectable. I often found that if injected they died still anyway, so I just put the dose in the mouth. Once I lost the first 2 I panicked and figured to stop the dying I had to PRE treat the flock to avoid them showing symptoms as it would be too late. So I resorted to medicating the water. This worked and it nipped the dying in the bud but they were never strong or completely over it even with vets duration, literally the tsn turning point with no looking back was the probiotic IN with the medicated water. I made a mental note tho that before the probiotics, even tho on meds their poops were never high and tight. On only the second day of probios, the poop was MINT, but I did the full duration for obvious reasons and am so thankful to say that they have not been sick since, it has been a good year almost. Before that you could put your clock on it, by two months sick. So this has been amazing. I dont live in fear anymore.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm so glad they're ok now CBL, what a lot to go through!

I definitely believe what you said about the probiotics saving your flock, the evidence seems pretty conclusive fom what you described. Can you remember what kind of dose of the probiotic you used? I'm using mine just according to directions on the jar at the moment. 6 grams per litre.

From what you observed, I wonder if there must be a threshold where the amount of probiotic bacteria overcomes the antibiotic's capacity to nuke it.? Or maybe that bacteria is just not receptive to baytril, I mean plenty of bacteria isn't, that's why we switch around antibiotics according to the disease.

One last question, how long did you have them on probiotics? I've never had mine of it for long, just a few days, maybe they need longer?

Thanks heaps for all your help CBL!


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Anytime Bella  Ok so back in the day when I took one of my budgies in for illness, respiratory. The vet said I can give probiotics daily for the rest of any birds life.

I remembered that but I don't like to give anything all the time just in case of resistance. During the illness, I gave probiotics for the full duration of the meds which was 7 to 10 days, then stopped the meds and continued on with probios for another week or so. Then and now today, I alternate from probios, to ACV to nothing but tap water, to virkon. Whatever I decide. The dosage mine says is one teaspoon per gallon/16cups for reg and up to 2 when sick or stressed. Mine is primalac and you can buy online at the CRPU or google it to see if there is a supplier near you. My farm supply sells it also. A bit more pricey but I got it THAT day as opposed to waiting for the mail.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps CBL! I checked out the link, and I like that its made especially for pigeons. Not sure I can get it here in Oz , but I'll keep looking. 

I've had issues with committing to probiotics because they are so expensive, and I read something on Dr Collin Walkers website about them being ineffective unless bacteria is cultivated from the right species. I don't know what to believe there, so I've held back with properly using them. 

Anyway I'll give this vetafarm probiotic a good go, its one of the better brands for bird medicine in Australia, so fingers crossed.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

There are many out there not to worry, Im sure yours is good if it is for birds, I have another one as well from Quebec, u can also order online, hang on, walking to fridge to get name for you.....K it is called Probiavi and I believe it was WAY more expensive but if u have a bird or two and not a lot then it is ok, I paid like 32 bucks which included tax and shipping for 100 grams. My primalac was 62 Cdn for 600 grams and 120 for 1650 grams. I wouldnt be without it. I think the larger probiavi was about 180 Cdn, for as much. Even try just googling bird probiotic at ANY bird site, like Lady Gouldian Finch.com Find you best price but my healthy birds are a walking flying testament that the stuff really works!!!!! U know how addicts boast about how many days they are drug free.....lol well my birds are like 180 days disease free lol..


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes, Its a great feeling when they are well again. And you're entitled to be so happy about it
Thanks again for all your help and advice, it means a lot!


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Bella any time, glad to help.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

elizaisling said:


> So on Sunday I took my two ringneck doves in to the vet because they had had stinky poops for about a month - at first I didn't think much of it/hoped it would resolve itself. Behaviour was and continues to be normal. But then one of the birds vomited one day and both started having rather runny poops so I took them in to get looked at.
> 
> Long story short they were prescribed oral baytril. There was a misunderstanding, though, and I had thought for some reason that we were to give it once a day. But when I looked at the bottle more carefully today, I realized it said every 12 hours.
> 
> ...


You would want to give it as directed. Twice a day for 10 days. Even if you have given it once a day for 5. So the vet may have to call more in for you anyway, so best to explaine to the vet that prescribed it.


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