# Pigeon Coughed, smells like blood



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Starting a new thread for Rosa, who seems most at risk of the 3 I brought into the house today. She's on the right in the picture...









She's been standing like a penguin down at the loft, but today mostly like the picture, and her crop seems "stuck." I can feel seeds in it. 
I didn't notice that she was breathing audibly until I brought her into the house.

She weighs 368g and got agitated when I picked her up to weigh her.
She coughed and I thought maybe she was going to void her crop, but only a few drops of liquid came forth, and it smelled like blood (i.e. the "iron" smell).  

Now that she's calmer, she's breathing easier and a little quieter, but still looks quite uncomfortable. She's in a big hospital cage with the two other hens in the picture, one of whom has similar crop symptoms, but whose breathing is all right. They have option to sit over heat, and a cup of pedialyte to drink from. 
They have not been offered any seed.

I called the avian vet's office where I where took Velvet yesterday, but she isn't in until tomorrow, and the emergency vet the office referred me to is at least an hour away, we're not sure if they even see pigeons, and the roads are getting icy, so I need to keep her stable until morning, if I can... 

From Phil's advice in my other thread, it seems Rosa will need nystatin, antibiotics, and metronidazole (or one of the other 'zoles) and I'm not sure where to begin, since there are breathing and crop issues all at once.

Thanks in advance for advice, assistance, blessings, prayers, etc.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, separate her out, so she has no seeds/food right now, start her on Baytril and Metronidazole and a few hours from now give her some Nystatin. Tube her the meds in 8cc of re-hydration fluid, as this will either help her move things along or give her more volume if she wants to void her crop contents.

Hold off in providing water in a dish for her until we see how things go for a bit with this.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

OK, I will put Nancy in with her sisters, and separate Rosa into the smaller cage and tube her meds.

I have metronidazole as both 60mg & 100mg tabs; how many mg should she get, and should I crush the tabs and suspend them in the solution, or pill her?

The medistatin I have is powder, and I'm not sure how to mix it in... I reviewed Karyn's instructions from Junior's thread, but it's not making sense to me today 

Moving birds as soon as I post this...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I would crush the 60mg Metronidazole and add it to the fluids to tubed along with a loading dose of 0.20cc Baytril and 2 single drops of ACV. I would also very, very gently massage this around her crop a a few seconds to loosen things up.

See my edit in your other thread.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...with-hold Seeds and Water for the time being.

If the Crop seems to have much Liquid in it, it should be suctioned out, for which, the 'Tube' is modified to have a angle cut opening in the end, flame softened edges, and, a small opening about 1/4 inch up, on the side.


I would get the Medistatin in first, wait a while, then the other Meds, or, just do all at once.


I would add a little ACV also to anything tubed in presently, also.


Have her by herself, so you can for sure see her poops/urates.

Just take a more or lesds level Teaspoon worth of the Medistatin, put into a small Bottle with a Lid or Cap, add 20 mLs of tepid Water to it, shake it up make sure all is dissolved well, use 1 to 1.5 mL to a dose.

Shake well each time since it settles and seperates when sitting.


You can just do this -


Take a 10 mL Syringe which you will affix a section of Catheter to for Tubing things in.

Do you know how to prepare the Catheter for this?


Put a 60 mG Tablet of Metronidazole into the Syring Barrel, insert the Plunger.


Having prepared the Medistatin, draw about 1.5 mL of that solution, into the Syringe ( just into the Syringe, not via the Tube/Catheter )


Let this sit a few minutes.

Grab a Shot Glass, slowly depress the Syringe Plunger to expell the Liquid and semi-dissolved Tablet of Metronidazole into the Shot Glass, draw the Liquid back in, expell, draw in some Air, look at the base of the interior of the Suringe, and you will see some of the crushed Tablet which is not dissolved, draw in Liquid again, plus an inch worth of Air, and shake vigorously till all the Tablet is dissolved.

Set the Catheter and Syringe in warm Water, assemble, lube, and Tube in the Medistatin-Meds combo.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Reglan' is also good for this syndrome ( ie: to reduce inflamation associated with the Proventriculus )...this would tend to be an Injection of course.


...as is adding a little Cayanne powder to the formula, once formula is safe to give. Just make it about how 'medium hot' would be to one's own Taste.

No Seeds for a while, only thin formula ( for three or four days ) once Crop is emptying...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks for the med-combining instructions, Phil!

I got the meds, syringe, & tube all ready.
Then I burritoed Rosa, and when I opened her beak, saw that she has a big PEA stuck in her throat. 
I don't want to injure her, and don't think I can weasel the tube past it. 
How do I get it out ???


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Do you have a pair of fine tweezers? If so, will they reach - we have used that means of getting a peanut from a bird's throat


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I have had this happen before. Dampen a Q-tip and use this to push and twist at the stuck pea. It soft enough not to injure her, but strong enough to dislodge the pea. Anything hard can be problematic if she suddenly moves, as it may cause injury. Make sure the kind you are using has the cotton end attached very well. Point her head down and follow with a little water to the side of her beak to make her swallow.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Got the pea out, and could see more further down... so I tubed about 5ml of the 8ml dose.
When I could see she was going to vomit, I held her head low, and up came 4 more BIG peas and about a dozen assorted smaller seeds, along with some pink (bloody?) ropy saliva. 
I told her I was sorry... 
I don't think she vomited as much fluid as I tubed, and there's still more seeds in her crop, so I'm hoping some of the meds are still in there and starting to work. 
She's "resting" now, but sometimes standing like a penguin again, rather than hunched over like earlier. 
I hope I haven't done harm...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, glad you managed to dislodge the pea. You did not harm her, I had feeling that giving her some fluids would help her in trying to void her crop contents. Gently massage her crop a bit, this will give you a chance to gage how full it currently feels and loosen things up, then leave her for a few hours. Later, feel her crop and compare it to how it felt earlier (now) to see if the contents are moving at all. If you feel it has gone down, tube her 10cc of hydration fluid with three single drops of ACV, this again with help her void the contents, or move things along and leave her until the morning.

In the morning, if the crop has fully emptied, you can decide if you want to take her in to the vet or continue with meds and fluids and bring her along like we did Junior. If it has not emptied in the morning she should see the vet to have her crop cleared, and injectable meds most likely started.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


Good that she is throwing up...

Tube some ACV Water in there while yer at it...say, 1-1/2 Tablespoons to a Quart of Water...just tune in a couple mLs worth.



Just guess as best you can how much of the Meds are being thrown up and out, and, replace that percentage later today.


That is one reason I usually do the 'Medistatin' ( along with a little ACV-Water sometimes ) first, wait a while...then do the other Meds, but, either way...no big deal if the initial dose ends up being a little stout, it's only going to trickle through most likely, so, it is like a 'Time Release' sort of thing anyway, in it's way.

Provide warmth if you are not already...


Images of this one's poops de jur?


Phiol
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, as Phil says. depending on how much now, and perhaps later is thrown up, we may want to tube just a few CCs with meds that will stay down, to make up for lost meds.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I massaged her crop a little before I released her back into the cage after vomiting, and have told her to feel free to vomit some more, if she needs to. 
Rosa has my only heating pad right now... and has been sitting half on and half off of it.
I may run out and try to get another heating pad, for the 3 in the big cage; that room feels a little chilly to me tonight.

I don't have any droppings other than what I've already posted, of which some were Rosa's and some were Amy's. 
I'm confident she made at least 3, since she and Amy were not sitting near each other, and there were 3 near her. 
Rosa hasn't had anything to eat or drink (other than what I just gave via tube) in about 8 hours, but her nestbox had plenty of green slimy droppings in it this morning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Any Drug Store ought to have a decent basic non-automatic-shut-off, off-&-3-position switch Heating Pad for like $12.00 or so...I just got another one a couple days ago ( have ten in operation at the moment I think...oye...)


As long as the Crop is not overly full of Liquids, it is fine to massage it ( from below, from it's base area ) and hope for more throw-ups.

The more of anything in there that she can get out, the better.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, as Phil says, with the massaging, I do find at times this helps things either come up and out or passed through the system. The rest sounds fine, let's see how the crop feels in a few hours.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

They can have a bunch of crud, inflamitory debris, Yeast-byproducts, Seeds stuck together with this soft-Tofu-like stuff, thick Mucous, whatever, and, 'Massaging' the lower area can help break up these relatively soft agglomerations for them to come out or pass through.

I think the ACV-Water helps this also, so I usually include it along with the Medistatin.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I just checked Rosa's crop, and looked down her throat, and lo, there was another big pea waiting to be fished out, so I did. 
Couldn't see anything else, so I just massaged her crop gently for a minute or two and let her back into the cage. 

She hasn't thrown up again, and I can still feel seeds in her crop, so I haven't tried tubing anything else yet. I'll check her crop & throat about every hour until I crash, and fish out anything that's waiting... if it gets empty enough by "going down" instead of "coming up" I'll try tubing the rest of the meds... there's about 4-5ml still waiting.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Although not what we would like right now, it's more or less normal to be feeling the seeds and such in a slowed down crop. Do you think it has gone down some since earlier in the evening? How much do you thin Rosa threw up before? If it has gone down, I would double the amout of fluids to around 10cc, if she threw up more than a few CCs, I would add 1 more drop of the 10% Baytril to the fluids and a bit more Metronidazole and Medistatin as well and two more single drops of ACV.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Update, 11:30pm 
Finally, a dropping:








Looks pretty awful, but finally something's coming out the right end. 

Removed another pea from Rosa's throat; can still see more, but they're not gettable (yet). Gave her the remaining meds dose; she did not throw it up.
But, I notice the irises of her eyes are a bright reddish color; usually they're a softer color... I hope this isn't a bad sign.
You can also see there's still some stuff in her crop, though it feels a lot less stuffed than before. The traffic jam seems to be high in her throat.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, first a quick question, why are the peas you see not gettable?

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin, 


Post #20 appears to show merely Bile, and, Urates...( ie: no fecal matter ).


Palpate her entire Neck, and, see if there are any clogs, swelling, Seed-Dams and so on, her and anyone else.


Infections when having a locus in the Throat or Neck, can make inflamitory debris there, causing Seeds to glog up or dam up there.


You need to evaluate this before using the Tube, in order to anticipate correctly any obstructions the Tube may encounter.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, first a quick question, why are the peas you see not gettable?
> 
> Karyn


They are eventually becoming gettable... as they move around.
When some were not gettable, they were sort of side by side, (I could see 3, maybe 4 at once) I couldn't get the q-tip far enough around to flip them up & out (which is how they seem to come; I hope I'm "doing it right," and my effort seemed to be causing additional distress. 
Since I posted that, I've relieved her of 3 or 4 of them, one at a time, about 30-40 minutes apart. She does seem relieved after I get each one...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Palpate her entire Neck, and, see if there are any clogs, swelling, Seed-Dams and so on, her and anyone else.
> Infections when having a locus in the Throat or Neck, can make inflamitory debris there, causing Seeds to glog up or dam up there.
> You need to evaluate this before using the Tube, in order to anticipate correctly any obstructions the Tube may encounter.


The stuck peas seem very high, at the edge of visible and just beyond, and the crop below that is much softer, can't feel any "objects" within, and touching and massaging her lower crop doesn't seem to cause any distress, though she seems unusually uncomfortable when her head is pushed forward, as in the tube feeding video.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



So long as no liquid is attending or on top of the stuck 'Peas'...just gently massage the Neck ( which of course includes the Esophagus ) in an upward way, to persuade the Peas to come up and out.


They get these 'Seed Dams' in their Necks when inflamitory conditions are creating debris, goo and other material, as well as the normal elasticity and or fine muscle tensions/control of ther Esophagus are then effected adversely.


So...massage/work them up and out...


They can get the same sort of Seed Dams in the proventriculus, or anywhere else further down, hence, all my admonishing to with-hold Seeds and so on, when this syndrome of Canker and Candida and or Bacterial are suspected or are indicated in whatever measure, by Crop Stasis and palpable Seeds still in the Crop.



Just bear in mind, that when massageing such Seed up and out, you are also going to be laterally compressing their Trachea, so, the Bird can not Breathe while you are doing that, so, do it for a second or two, hold the Pea from going back down with only a light pressure from both sides, and, resume for a second or two, just to be easy on the Bird's desire to Breathe during the procedure.


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

The peas don't have liquid on top of them, but some of them appear "glazed" in a culinary sense. 
It surprises me that she doesn't just regurgitate them, since I can fish them out when they get within sight/reach of the q-tip.

wee-hours update: just got 4 more peas and another seed about half that size... there are still a few left, but not many.
I anticipate getting the other peas out of her in the morning, if Rosa doesn't spit them up herself in the meantime.
Also, she made another dropping very similar to the one pictured in post #20.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yeahhh...they will be 'glazed' or mucous-slimed and or have stuff stuck to them.


Are you massaging these up and out?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, if you need to have a longer Q-Tip you can take two of them, cut off one end, lay the cut ends next to each other 1" or so and then tape together. Try and make the taped sections as smooth as possible and strong. I do have some longer 6" one ended swabs I ordered in, but I have taped two together when I needed to get a little father down than a single Q-Tip would allow, before I had these (again, make sure the cotton part is attached well). The peas/seeds being stuck in her throat and her unable to clear them herself does speak to some kind of blockage/swelling that I am hoping the meds will help to resolve. Phil has given you quite good instructions as well on how to work them back up the esophagus and out her mouth.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Morning update:
Rosa's crop only seems to have a few seeds left in it; I got two peas and several smaller seeds out of her throat this morning. 
I think these are the ones that have been there longest; they're slicker (harder to get) and greenish. 
Her posture is a bit better too, but when I release her after I take out seeds, she wiggles her neck around a bit before settling down.
Two more droppings overnight similar to post #20, pics forthcoming as soon as I change my camera battery...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

That the crop emptied over night is a good sign, just keep her now on her meds and start her on the very thin formulas you were using on Junior when she was all blocked up, to flush and to give nutrition. Personally, I would make an extended Q-Tip and carefully twirl it down her throat to help dislodge/ any peas/seeds that can't be seen, but she may be feeling stuck mid-point in her throat, if you do this, again slightly dampen the cotton end so it does not want to fray.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Can I let Rosa have a cup of Pedialyte to drink (if she can/will) while I take Amy to the vet? 
She hasn't had anything since the meds I gave her last night.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, you can give her some Pedialyte, make it tepid, sit with her and see if she drinks. If she drinks a good amount I would remove the dish until you come back, if not then leave the dish for now. What about her meds for today?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I didn't get back from the vet until almost 2am, so Rosa probably drank more water (pedialyte) than she should have... when I got back I could see that she'd spat up some fluid (on herself)... so I checked her throat, got rid of a few more seeds, and felt around to see what might still be there. Not finding much, I tubed her nystatin & baytril, which hasn't seemed to distress her. She's feeling thin, though... so I will probably give her nutrical cocktail with her meds in it tomorrow.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, you kinda gotta deal with these things methodically - 


If a Crop is not passing well, remove all Seed and Water.


If a Crop has slow passing Liquids in it, these should be evacuated - or allowed to pass at liesure - before administering Oral Meds for treating the Candida/Canker/Bacteria or inflamations presumed to be occasioning the slow Crop.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I think Rosa had spat up whatever liquid may have been hanging around, she had some saliva on her feathers, but the seeds I took from her throat tonight weren't particularly slimy, and her throat wasn't full of liquid. 

If I'd known I was going to be away for so long this afternoon and evening, I would have asked one of my friends to go in and pull the water, but I was too preoccupied to think about it when it turned out that way... 

(I don't understand what I just wrote; time to crash )


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, a long day for you. If you do still find at this point you feel any seeds/food in her crop, I think it's best to get Rosa in and have her crop voided and flushed as well. Don't be shy with the Medistatin for these gut's you can actually give quite a bit more than what's generally suggested, as Medistatin (Nystatin) is not absorbed by the body's GI tract, it is a contact only type med, works when it makes contact with yeast/fungi, so there is generally no fear over overdosing with this med.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

This morning I can still feel "something" in Rosa's crop, but can't tell what, since nothing is high enough for me to see.
I'm almost sure she has aspirated some of what she's thrown up (how could she not have done?) and probably also has aspiration pneumonia. 

Since I didn't see liquid, and didn't feel much in the crop, I tubed her about 3cc of nystatin, baytril, and TMS, but now she's trying to throw up again. 

We are totally SOL at the moment because the vet who took care of Amy yesterday is not available today, and so far, none of the other vet practices whose numbers I have been given can see any kinds of birds today (though there are two who see some birds but not pigeons). 

I have no idea what to do next other than go sit in the corner and cry.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, we'll do our best to get Rosa through this, to start I want you to give Rosa an injection of one of the pre-loaded syringes of Reglan (metoclopramide) that the vet sent home for Amy. Make sure when injecting you do not inject straight down, but on a more parallel angle, like you are trying to just slip it under the skin, into the muscle, do this into the breast muscle only, wet the area with a bit of alcohol before hand.

Robin, we know as of yesterday Rosa's crop was not totally blocked up and although slow was still passing fluids. If she managed to keep down the 3cc you gave her, I want you to give her a cocktail of the Nutrical, like you used to make up for Junior, give her 7cc. But before you do this, what I want you to do, this will sound a little unconventional, is get a water spray bottle, like you use to spritz flowers (this bottle should be new, or never used for anything else but water) fill it with warm water and set the spray to about 95% stream. If after you give the cocktail, and later fluids or meds, and she tries to throw up, I want you to lightly spray her face with the warm water, not too much, just a quick light spray. What we are trying to do is override one sensation, her feeling she wants to throw up, with another, a little shock from being sprayed in the face with water. You may have to sit by her for anywhere from 15 minutes, up to an hour (this is based on what I had to do) you can usually tell when this urge has passed for them by change in body language and posture, doing this will also help stop her from aspirating when she throws up.

I have done this before and I am certain it saved one of my bird's lives, as it doing this kept the meds (and nutrition) down long enough to have a chance to work and do their job, and after a day of two the urge to throw up stopped. We can do this to get her through the weekend as I am not sure I would have an inexperienced person with birds, at an emergency clinic, try and clear her crop. If we can keep the fluids down, she will stay hydrated, which is an important thing for her right now, outside of keeping the meds down as well.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If able to secure the Pigeon in an vertical 'Burrito-Bird' mode...and, having prepared the Syringe Catheter section as described previously, so long as the Bird is not a 'Water Baloon' of over-full Crop liquids, where, they may 'gush' at the slightest provication...


It is forthright and easy to carefully suction out any foul non-passing or inconvenient liquids in the Crop, prior to administering liquid suspensions of Medicines, to adderess the Stasis issue/condition.


Once empty of Liquids, it is also easy-enough to palpate for larger Seeds, and, to work them up and out individually, in order to get rid of them.


In conditions of there being a slow passing of Liquids, the less Liquid there is in the Crop, the better, as far as how this then allows the Medicines to pass without their being so diluted by the volume of Liquids already present, and, passing along with them only slowly at best.

Trying to orally re-hydrate a Static Crop Bird is not as effective as evacuating the Crop first, administering concentrated Medicine Solutions into the Crop, and, giving those time ( a couple days even ) to work, first...to where, once those Liquids are passing well, the Bird can rehydrate just fine with being given Solutions for that, or being allowed to drink under supervision.



It's a viscious circle otherwise - diluted medicines in a slow passing Crop, taking too long to get through in order to work for passing too slowly in their dilution, verses, a concenbtrated solution, of small volume, passing at the same rate of slow, which can be addressing the condition to allow better passing to follow.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, yes, as Phil says, best if we can suction out if we need to, the contents of her crop if has stopped emptying, but my suggestions were based on the last observations that her crop was still passing fluids OK, please let us know.

There is a thread on this, I will find it if needed.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

12/4 late afternoon UPDATE:
Sorry for the delay in posting, but we found a vet who could see Rosa today, Dr Marc McDanel at Animal General in Cranberry, and she's had her crop flushed. There was more in it than was apparent just by palpating neck & crop, so it was pretty packed, I guess.

One of the items produced was a light brown, flat, almost skin-like piece of stuff about as 3cm long and 1cm wide, kind of shaped like a miniature deerhide. The doctor said he'd never seen anything like it, none of us could think of what she might have eaten that looks like that, so we had xrays to rule out any kind of a mass that might be sloughing off necrotic tissue... and everything looked normal. Xray showed the crop cleared, and no apparent evidence of pneumonia, but she will be getting antibiotics since we're almost sure she had aspirated some of what she had been vomiting.
She seems much relieved, and is no longer gagging, but breathes a little roughly when agitated (distinguished from actual grunting or efforts to do that). 

So, she is to have the same diet plan as Amy, and similar meds, but with doxy in place of the TMS that Amy's getting. Dr. gave me a vial of higher concentration of doxy so she can just tongue down a few drops instead of having to tube it, and explained to keep it away from light (which I didn't know, but had my other in the refrigerator, so it's in the dark already).
He also said that nystatin can be more effective if given half an hour ahead of a meal, on an empty crop, but acknowledged that is frequently impractical timing for birds.

So, I guess we're down to following the instructions and looking forward to improvement... though I realize that Rosa (and Amy) are still rather "at risk."
I've got such a 3-ring circus among the several treatment programs that I'm about to make an excel chart of who gets what when, and how much, so I can keep it straight without shuffling too many papers. 

The vet office where Rosa was seen today is:
Animal General of Cranberry
20411 Route 19, LaSalle Plaza Unit 10
Cranberry, PA 16066
724-776-7930
http://www.animalgeneral.net/index.html

There are two vets there who will see birds, including pigeons & chickens
Dr Marc McDanel, DVM, and Dr Michael Hutchinson, DVM (the owner)
they will see "emergency" cases on short notice, though it isn't an "emergency clinic" per se
the staff are friendly and helpful


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I have been worried about Rosa all day, thanks for posting this encouraging news, glad you were able to find a place after all to take her, good job.

If it helps you, please do make up a chart of who gets what and when, and if you are uncertain, post up here and we'll try and figure things out. Now that they both have their crops cleared, I am hoping it will be a pretty straight forward process to recovery. We now just need to manage their meds, care and feeding/hydration, pretty well the steps that were taken to bring Junior back, administer meds, no solid food/seeds for a while and nutritious cocktails to maintain their weight and give needed calories.

Also glad you now have number experienced vets to tune to when you have to.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin,



Oh good, glad you got to see the 2nd Vet and that good things came of it.


I think you shouuld go out and buy a few 'LOTTO' Tickets while on-the-roll Vet wise, as the odds against even finding one ( '1' ) friendly, reasonable, inbterested Vet are astronomically low.


Please everyone pardon me for my occasional ambiguitites, vagueries or redundancies...just trying to illuminate an over view sort of thing covering these general conditions.


No idea what the little 'Deer Hide' thing is...might have been some tight curled up oddment in with the Bulk Bagges Seeds and dessicated when pecked/eaten, and, hydrated and spread out after that.


Any object the Crop somehow rejects can initiate a Candida condition for staying in the Crop even as other things pass.

This is a little Mysterious, how the Crop can hang onto some things, while passing others.

But, anything which remains in there starts to host all sorts of Bacteria and Yeast-related Organisms, which can them move onto or into the Crop Tissues themselves, and, when doing so down low, at the Proventriculus, cause the whole thing to become clogged.


Yes, you do well to keep 'Charts'...


It's a bit much, especially when one is under duress and stress and emotional/physical exhaustion, to keep it all on one's Head.


I just use Spiral Notebooks.




Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Karyn & Phil, 

*Thank you both so much *for sharing your knowledge, and especially for your support and encouragement. This is a scary dark adventure, but you are lighting my way...

My greatest terror is to cause harm, either by comission or omission... and that is probably the greater part of the stress, since I am needing to learn new things faster than is comfortable (the sciences are not my long suit ) and I'm plagued with uncertainty by nature -- in my world, there is only a spectrum of grey, nothing is black or white. 

Now I need to figure out the best way to "make up" the missed meals for Rosa (and Amy) today while we were out getting Rosa fixed up. I don't want to give her too much (or the wrong things) too soon... only got general instructions from Dr about feeding, but the meds doses are clear.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Sunday morning:
I was relieved to find Rosa still alive and not looking too wilted this morning...
Her breathing is a little rough, but not worse than yesterday after the vet visit (she had been breathing more easily through the evening).

Last night, for the "late" meds, I "borrowed" a dose of Amy's reglan and gave it to Rosa an hour before giving her the antibiotics. (.20ml of "40%" Doxy and .16ml of baytril). 
She had no trouble with the reglan, but spat some of the AB back up, but not right away, so I didn't have the chance to do the spritz thing Karyn recommended.

The Doxy dose is twice daily, and the baytril once. 
Even those small amounts seem to have been more than Rosa could handle, last night.

Would it be effective to split the baytril into 2 daily doses of .08ml, just so she can keep them down? 

Is it possible that there's an error on my Rx, and she should get .02ml instead of .20ml of the Doxy? (Velvet gets .30ml of 5% Doxy)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Sunday morning:
> I was relieved to find Rosa still alive and not looking too wilted this morning...
> Her breathing is a little rough, but not worse than yesterday after the vet visit (she had been breathing more easily through the evening).
> 
> ...


Robin, yes, you can split the Baytril up into two doses, but I would round up to 0.10cc, instead pf the .08cc. With the Doxy, did she give you a new prescription, if so what does it say on the bottle in terms of strength, never heard of 40% Doxy, perhaps 40mg/mL?

Robin, I have to run out for a while, but if 40mg/mL, the 0.20cc (8mg) would be a proper dose, twice a day.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dr McDanel mixed the "40%" Doxy for Rosa when I told him that what I had on hand was "5%" (50mg/ml) and that I was giving the other birds .30ml of that daily, and was concerned about giving "big" doses. 

Now I see that the bottle is 40mg/ml, (which is 4%, right?) and less concentrated than the other I have. D'oh. 

I'm wondering if I can give .10ml 4 times, instead, to help her keep it down.

Here are Rosa's droppings from overnight; Dr Sowers (who saw Amy) mentioned that it would be likely to see occasional blood-tinged mucus spat up over the next several days, as the inflammation subsides and things clear out. Rosa is breathing quietly right now, and I'm ready to give the antibiotics, about 1hr 20 after the reglan (I hope that isn't too long).








The urates are yellow enough that I'm thinking she might need metronidazole as well, but I'm not sure how to manage that with the tiny doses right now.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Dr McDanel mixed the "40%" Doxy for Rosa when I told him that what I had on hand was "5%" (50mg/ml) and that I was giving the other birds .30ml of that daily, and was concerned about giving "big" doses.
> 
> Now I see that the bottle is 40mg/ml, (which is 4%, right?) and less concentrated than the other I have. D'oh.
> 
> ...


Robin, I would not dose 4 times a day, Doxycycline is usually dosed BID or QD, meaning twice a day or once a day, not sure what the concern of the vet was, as there is not a lot of difference between the 5% you had before and the 4% you now have (not saying anything bad, but if you had to buy a prescription, I don't see what the real need was for this). The the vet recommended of the 4%, 0.20cc (8mg) twice a day (16mg a day) works out to be, more or less, the q24h dosing of the 5%, .30cc (15mg a day). So you can either give it as one larger dose daily or split in two, either is fine but I prefer the once daily at night, as sometimes Doxy can effect their appetite through the day and giving it at night helps with this (not a big consideration currently or you as you are tubing everything right now). 

Try and get as many small cocktails as you can into them through the day, add meds when the time is due and let's see how things go, glad her breathing as settled down.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I would include the Metronidazole if it was me...


Doxycycline will tend to invite or promote Candida ( are we using Medistatin on this Bird? Sorry, just woke up, mind is foggy ).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> I would include the Metronidazole if it was me...
> 
> 
> Doxycycline will tend to invite or promote Candida ( are we using Medistatin on this Bird? Sorry, just woke up, mind is foggy ).


Yes, Medistatin is being used, although Robin did not confirm she is doing so, I recommended double dosing for a few days.

Yes, I agree with Phil, to cover all our bases, I would add Metro 30mg as a once a day dose into the mix.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Forgive me, I am kind of foggy groggy, it will pass, just the way it is sometimes when having woken up, got up, made coffee, checked Birds, and, trying to think straight too soon!


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Gaah, I had a reply typed and gremlins ate it. 

Rosa (and Amy) about to get medistatin doses (separately from the antibiotics, as recommended). I'm using the recipe Karyn provided in post #65 of Amy's thread. 

I was thinking that giving Rosa smaller doses would make her less likely to spit up; that's why I was asking if it were OK to split the dose. 

I'm leery of tubing bigger quantities after last night's near-disaster, and Rosa spitting up after tiny dribble-doses, but I'll have to take a chance sometime soon... 

@Phil - I didn't know doxycycline promoted candida, but it does make sense. 

@Karyn - the vet may have misunderstood what I told him about the Doxy dose I was giving Velvet (or perhaps he was "decimal challenged" for the moment) and thought I had a more diluted solution already. He provided the 4% solution from their stock, and it was very inexpensive...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If anything...the Medistatin would be expected to feel soothing I'd think, rather than it would promote a discomfort intrinsically toward reguritation.

You can giuve her a little Pepto Bismal, part of a Tablet, or, the Liquid...if possibly breaking up a Tablet, and giving say, one small part of it, would be easiest.


Might help calm the sensitive Crop for giving the non Medistatin meds.


Maybe stagger it though 12 hours say, from the Medistatin, since it would possibly inhibit local efficacy of the latter.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Rosa did fine keeping down the medistatin, but when I gave reglan to both Amy & Rosa about an hour ago... 

Rosa went first, and while I was giving Amy hers, she (Rosa) coughed and spat up more ropy saliva than anything I've given her can account for... so I don't know if the dose really did her any good.  Though I am seeing more droppings (mostly urates, but some gritty looking bile) than I would have expected, given that she's had very little since yesterday.

She's also rather agitated, and pacing in the cage, even jumping up, catching hold of the grille and beating her wings. Now I hear her bouncing around in the cage... 
What might this mean (other than she doesn't like being confined)?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Not sure about the pacing, Phil may know better.

It may be an idea to consider getting them both back into the vet for another crop flush with a very dilute Chlorhexidine solution by the vet who saw Rosa in Cranberry. I remember I had a bird, who before I was comfortable doing a lot of procedures myself, needed his crop flushed by the vet a number of times.

Not to put more to your mind (and expenses), but I thought I would mention it.

Glad the weekend is almost over.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

She is likely feeling better and now feels annoyed with the Cage confines...or is just annoyed with the Cage confines, whether feeling better or not.

Can you let her have some free fly time in the room? Ler her goof off a little while, and exercise a little?



I think there is some kind of Bacteria/Infection in their Crops which is not being addressed by the meds.

We should have seen more improvement by now.



What all Meds are being given orally?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm definitely hoping to get them both to the vet again tomorrow, but I would probably take them to the one who saw Velvet, if she is in and can see us. 

It was good that Rosa was seen by the vet in Cranberry yesterday, but he didn't give her fluids, reglan, or anything for pain like Amy was given at the ER vet. 

Rosa ended up spitting up some of the cocktail. I was hoping to prevent that by having her sit in my lap a little longer after the serving, but she was restless, and that was the first spritz. When she collected her wits after that, really began to struggle and I let her back into her cage, and that's when she spat up, despite that I spritzed again. I think what she spat up wasn't mostly cocktail because it wasn't tan enough... it was more clear and pink-tinged. Might she have coughed that stuff up rather than vomited it? Or does that quality of stuff just mean there was other fluid in her crop (where it might have come from is mystery, since she hasn't had much going in...)

Her breathing has been alternately ragged, slightly gurgly, and almost silent,


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> She is likely feeling better and now feels annoyed with the Cage confines...or is just annoyed with the Cage confines, whether feeling better or not. Can you let her have some free fly time in the room? Ler her goof off a little while, and exercise a little?
> 
> I think there is some kind of Bacteria/Infection in their Crops which is not being addressed by the meds. We should have seen more improvement by now.
> 
> What all Meds are being given orally?


She doesn't really seem to be feeling better; when she's not agitated she hunkers down with her eyes half closed, which is throwing up red flags to me... 
I guess I could let her fly around a little, though I hope not to have a problem catching her... 
Meanwhile, I am playing one of the healing music CDs for calming that was a collaboration with Deepak Chopra in their room. 
I played it for Junior last summer and it seemed helpful. 

Here's the list for everybody's meds:https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjQ5fwj0zlP7dDRHOUNGcmRhT1RUcTdUazY0ZUpFSHc&authkey=CM3bndcO&hl=en#gid=0
And, here's the chart, in case Google hates anybody... ignore the blue & gold border things; it's where the "cursor" was when I captured the image


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I should have described it better, you do put them back in their cage after feeding and sit by it. when they are about to throw up they seem to start to stretch their neck and elongate their body, in their cage, this is when you spritz them, through the cage bars. Yes, get them in again tomorrow.

You can also ask for pre-loaded injectable meds if the vet feels a few days on injectabels way be in order.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, I should have described it better, you do put them back in their cage after feeding and sit by it. when they are about to throw up they seem to start to stretch their neck and elongate their body, in their cage, this is when you spritz them, through the cage bars. Yes, get them in again tomorrow.
> 
> You can also ask for pre-loaded injectable meds if the vet feels a few days on injectabels way be in order.
> 
> Karyn


Karyn, I don't think this is the same kind of throwing up, since Rosa doesn't do the neck and body thing. 
She shakes her head from side to side and kind of coughs, then out flies the stuff. Sometimes it almost seems like a snotty sneeze (sorry to be gross). 
I did successfully spritz her once in the cage, and once while she was still on my lap, and she didn't spit or throw up, but the other times... well, at least she got her face cleaned up a little.  

I hope I can get a quick lesson from the vet on injecting a bird, if injectable meds are recommended. 
I've given subcutaneous meds & fluids to cats, but pigeons are way different, and I have no experience at all with intramuscular injection (which is what you mentioned earlier sounds like).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Karyn, I don't think this is the same kind of throwing up, since Rosa doesn't do the neck and body thing.
> She shakes her head from side to side and kind of coughs, then out flies the stuff. Sometimes it almost seems like a snotty sneeze (sorry to be gross).
> I did successfully spritz her once in the cage, and once while she was still on my lap, and she didn't spit or throw up, but the other times... well, at least she got her face cleaned up a little.
> 
> ...


Interesting, this sounds more like trying to reject/spit out what you orally gave her. Might be best to dribble a a few drops of water to the side of her beak, forcing her to swallow to get most of what you just gave down to her crop, glad the spritzing seems to work for this as well.

Giving an IM injection is very easy. The amounts given are almost aways small, 0.05-0.25, depending on the med, and you give it into the breast muscle (about mid-body), a little over from the keel bone, slide in on an angle almost parallel to the body, into the muscle and inject (a little alcohol to clean the injection site before hand), your vet, if needed will give you instructions, but if unsure when you get home on something, we can help here.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Interesting, this sounds more like trying to reject/spit out what you orally gave her. Might be best to dribble a a few drops of water to the side of her beak, forcing her to swallow to get most of what you just gave down to her crop, glad the spritzing seems to work for this as well.


She has done that both with oral med doses and crop-delivered cocktail. 
I'm wondering if it's about phlegm rather than what I gave her... sometimes I see her sort of sniffle, then seem to tongue something down. 
(having been plagued with postnasal drip from allergic reactions most of my adult life, I can well understand how that might push her gag button)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, next time before giving anything (meds/cocktails) have a look into her mouth/upper throat area, if it looks phlegmy in there, you can use slightly damped Q-Tips to gently swab this area out.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Karyn; I hadn't thought of swabbing out her mouth...
Here's Rosa's overnight droppings -- still all urates, and some stuff she spat up.









Last night I put a humidifier in their room, and it seems to have helped their breathing.
Rosa's breathing still sounds rough when she's annoyed (like when I pick her up to wrap her) but less slurpy.
She did not spit anything up after getting the reglan this morning; we'll try a cocktail with meds presently.
She and Amy have appointments with a vet at 2pm; none of the ones who have seen my birds are available today, but this one was on everyone's recommendation list.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, I think Rosa could benefit from another good crop flushing, not sure how your vets there do it, but my vet may flush the crop anywhere from 2-4 times, until he sees the fluid he is flushing with is being drawn back out almost as clear as when it went in.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Back from the vet, Rosa didn't make it. 

She had kept the reglan down OK this morning, but had spat up most of the 3ml cocktail I gave her an hour later.

We waited a few minutes in the exam room for the doctor, and Carl (my friend who has been so helpful) noticed that Rosa had sat down in the usual "lounging on a wing" posture, and commented, since he has not often seen birds sit like that. 
I took a closer look and saw that she looked really wilted, and her nose was running. 
I picked her up and was holding her, as Dr Dorn came in, and I asked if there was any way to save her... 
He held out his hands, and I handed her to him, he took a minute or two to check over her gently, and said he thought she was "probably too far gone." 
I took her back and was holding her, and she shivered a few times and died in my hands.
I brought her back and showed her to her mate, but he seemed to already know...

So now, I will focus on getting Amy back to "fighting weight" since she seems to be making good progress. Will post more in "Amy's" thread...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I don't really know what to say, this is such very sad news to hear, you tried so hard for her, and its not like you were hesitant in any way in getting her the professional needed, this is just simply heartbreaking, I am so sorry for your loss.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thank you, Karyn...

I'm wondering if the odd item Dr McDanel flushed from her crop was indicative of some condition that didn't turn up on the x-rays... it did really look like flesh of some kind. 
And there was not a smooth path to tube feed her, even after the crop flushing. I always had to twirl the tube a lot more than with any of the others. 

(/monday morning quarterback)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, for those of us who share our life with birds, I do think it's incumbent on us that we do a bit of "Monday morning quarterbacking" when we suffer the loss of one. One, so we are making certain, or as certain as we can, that there are no issues going on that can bring harm to the rest of our birds. On top of that, the times I have suffered a loss, I try and make the bird that was lost life have continued meaning, by going over every little detail a few times in my mind to make sure they weren't omissions or things that could have been done (or not done) to have helped perhaps guided things to a better outcome and use anything I can draw to help my other birds in the future. 

Sometimes there is just the plain fact no matter the amount of skills we have, the meds we have or the professional help we bring to bear trying to heal a bird, even when everything is by the "book" and done right we lose birds. This does not make losing them even a bit easier, but at least when it does happen, when we do lose one, we can be at ease within ourselves we tried our very, very best for them.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, for those of us who share our life with birds, I do think it's incumbent on us that we do a bit of "Monday morning quarterbacking" when we suffer the loss of one. One, so we are making certain, or as certain as we can, that there are no issues going on that can bring harm to the rest of our birds. On top of that, the times I have suffered a loss, I try and make the bird that was lost life have continued meaning, by going over every little detail a few times in my mind to make sure they weren't omissions or things that could have been done (or not done) to have helped perhaps guided things to a better outcome and use anything I can draw to help my other birds in the future.


^^^^
Agree completely, though most of my experience has been with cats. 
I'm sorry if the monday morning quarterbacking comment was offensive or inappropriate; I am wrestling with mixed feelings... so, to take it on straight:

Things I didn't do that might have helped:

Bring bird inside immediately for observation, if I observe them doing something weird (like the craning their neck thing) for only a minute, then they act normal the rest of the day.

Immediately Identify the Dropper of Unusual Droppings as soon as said droppings are observed and bring the bird inside for observation

Taken both Rosa and Amy to the ER vet on Friday even though Rosa seemed to have improved and Amy seemed to have worsened (they came into the house at the same time).

Things I did that weren't a good idea:

Let Rosa have too much water while I was out having Amy seen at ER, though I don't really know how much she drank, and never expected to be away for 13 hours...

Things I wish I knew more about:

How to understand the agitation Rosa was experiencing last night... I've heard of ill quadruped animals becoming restless or agitated when their expiration is relatively imminent, but hadn't thought about it with regard to birds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi robin,



Ohhhhhhhh, sure sorry to hear this.


Last droppings shown, of those flat paint-like Urates, shows no food passing, of course.


Might have been some of her Crop which you saw, that we all wondered what the heck was that.


I have never seen that myself or heard of it, but, might have been what it was.

If she has an infection in there which was bad enough and occupying enough varied area, causing necrosis of Tissue something like that could happen, I suppose.



That would tend to be lethal, if some of the actual Eophagus or Crop wall itself became detached and allowed crop contents to flow into the inerstitial areas between Crop and 
whatever else...and, the lethal would likely take afew to several days with something like that.


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