# Question about deterrents of pigeons



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

There is this stuff like a grain I believe that large organizations or small?? put down to deter pigeons and it disorients them and eventually I believe they die but of course when given news about it they just say it disorients and makes them go away (downtown areas etc etc). Well my questions are has anyone ever treated a bird having this poison or deterrent in its system and how do you treat it...c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I think the poison you are talking about is called Avitrol.

Here are some posts on the forum about poisoning:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/poisoned-pigeons-in-alton-illinois-29886
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/avitrol-advice-urgent-20979.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/poisoned-pigeon-what-to-do-14376.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/help-poisoned-pij-1013.html

I think if you have some specific questions on this perhaps Phil (pdpbison) if he sees this post can help you as he seems to have dealt with this a few times in the past.

Karyn


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Dobato I appreciate the information and I hope someone is experience with it and my main questions are how do you treat it and does the bird have a unique smell to it??? I will know look at your links---Thanks a lot...c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Very nice links and one of them in pdf on Avian Toxicology is my Vet: Dr. LaBonde and it goes to show what a small world we live in...Very nice information thank you --I am so curious about the smell of the bird--I wish someone could tell me more of smells in sicknesses because it one gets it down pat they might be to instantly diagnose this type of sickness and treat it quick....c.hert..Thanks again....


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Bringing this forward again to ask if anyone out there has experience with poisonings in birds and the main question Did the particular bird have any kind of an odor or smell about it?? Dobato has forwarded good links prior about poisonings--but I really want to know the people with experience on this forum---Did they notice any smell or odor about the bird lasting for the extent of the illness--especially smelly when they get excited with their spasms???? c.hert


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

c.hert i know a fellow rehabber that has dealt with avitrol poisoned piji's i will e-mail her and ask her about it


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert,



Avicides or other Poisons people may use to poison Birds, various of these can have an odor, or, the Bird has an odor from ingesting the poison.


'Avitrol' I think is an organophosphate, and a poisoned Bird will have a sort of burnt-sugar odor, but it is not a sweet smell, not quite like burnt sugar, but I can't think of anything to compare it to... a 'sickly-burnt' smell...

Odor will fade away once the poison has left the Bird's system ( if the Bird survives, of course).

Canker Birds have a distinct odor often...not always, but often, in my experience anyway.


Other illnesses can have their particular odors also.


Odors are hard to describe, for me anyway, especially when trying to remember them...or when I am overtired, like now.


If you suspect a Pigeon has been Poisoned with 'Avitrol', provide an ample sized soft cloth-padded cardboard Box for the Bird to flail and have his 'fits' in, drape a thin cloth over the Box's open top for filtered light to enter.


With-hold Water...

If he drinks, it can kill him by accelerating the rate his system is absorbing the Poison.


So...no Water...

Just check on him now and then gently, and wait 24 hours and see how things seem then.

On arrival, if 'Avitrol' is suspected, check his Crop...


Usually, Avitrol poisoned Pigeons have eaten dry, full large-kernal Corn which was soaked previously with the poison. These are usually HUGE corn kernals.


If you know how and can be gentle with it, and the Crop seems to have no palpable liquids present, any such Kernals still in the Crop can m-a-y-b-e be massaged 'up' one at a time, with finger-tips, to be brought up and out of their mouth.

Other times, the poisoned 'Avitrol' Corn Kernals have all already passed their Crop on into their digestive system.

Avitrol poisoned Pigeons will usually seem overly vivid...very excited and 'hyper' and panting very fast with a slightly open-beak...

They may be found just standing, or, flailing-flopping.

The deep-soft soft-cloth padded ample sized Cardboard Box then, allows them a safe containment for their seizures/flailing.

Usually their Crops have no palpable liquid content.

If there is palpable liquid content, ideally, one would appeal to a Licensed Avian Medicine practioner a.s.a.p., who is experienced in the methods for the Crop liquids to be removed safely via a special ended catheter or lavage needle, since such liquid if left to pass would be a death sentence.


Whether an individual Pigeon survives, seems to depend on how much of the poisoned corn they ate...or, rather, how much of the poisoned Corn passes or has passed from their Crop to their further digestive system, and, maybe, at what rate.


Some individuals will throw-up much or nearly all of the Crop held corn on their own, and, thus, if not much had passed the Crop to enter their digestive system, their throwing-up can save them.


I have thought if trying 'Ipecac' for ones showing significant Crop contents of the poisoned corn, who are not throwing-up on their own, but I have not tried it yet.


If the Pigeon only ends up having a small amount of the 'Avitrol' poisoned Corn pass into their digestive system, they can survive and appear to enjoy a full recovery....being allowed a week or more of pampered convelescence.


Far as I have seen, basically, the Pigeon either survives or not...and, if he survives, he seems to be alright once allowed a week or two of extended recovery.


In other words, the survivors I have had did not appear to have any legacy or damage that I could tell.


I understand 'Valium' ( 'Diazepam' ) can help an Avitrol poisoned Pigeon while the Bird is in the throes...but I have not tried it.


Also - oh heck, can't remember, it's a Night Shade derivative - can help...uhhhh...'Atropine'...


Either of these of course, one would need to be very sure of how to use them, and or appeal to a licensed, experienced, trusted practioner, Vet or MD.


There are certainly many possible poisons people can and do use against Pigeons.

Some will have their own odors.

Not knowing what they are, it is very hard to say what to do in cases of un-familiar poison.


'Avitrol' causes flopping-flailing-seizures, super vivid expression, panting, 'hyper'...

Other poisons cause the Pigeon to stand still, appearing very fatigued, to droop their head and 'wilt'...

Strychnine probably causes the Bird to have an odor, but I don't know if I ever encountered it to know anything about the presentation.

Pigeons can sometimes drink from puddles of spilled Antifreeze, and this can be lethal.

Not sure how one would tell...if this was their issue.

But...

Ethyl Alcohol ( just make a usual if maybe mildish Scotch and Water, or any good Bourbon and Water, no ice, and have that for their Water Bowl - so long as the Bird is not dehydrated and going to Drink-like-a-Horse, otherwise, rehydrate first, allowing a proportion of Ethyl Alcohol overall, which will not intoxicate them unto discomfort ) can help for cases of Antifreeze ingestion, and or can definitely save their Life.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol



Phil
Lv


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I would appreciate that Altgirl 35 and if you find some time in your schedule do e-mail her and ask about odors with poisonings...
Pdpbison: Wonderful information and it is a real start about checking out a few things in the way of poisoning--right now something is wrong with my printer (ug) but I will have it fixed tomorrow and it is awful when you find some interesting things on the web and you have to write everything because I am not that up to date with these wonderful things and in the learning stages---that sweet but not so sweet burn smell really interest me but I realize these different smells are so hard to define but every once in awhile you come across a different one and you just know its not good....Thanks for the imput both of you.....c.hert


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

great info pb, i have a couple of questions if you don't mind.
have you ever tried toxiban???
and if we can't give them fluids can the birds be sub q during their ordeal to keep them hydrated?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

okay i asked 3 different rehabbers and here is what they said
(No weird smell -- could be something else going on.
I've rescued a poisoned pigeon by pumping its crop full with warm milk that had it poop its gut out. Keep that in mind, Jodi: birds are lactose intolerant, and in the case of poisoning that could work to your advantage since milk binds to poison and then eliminates it quickly. Worth a try since the bird will otherwise die. 
An Avitrol poisoned bird twitches about uncontrollably since it can't stand nor use its wings anymore, and it may have secondary injuries from the crash landing. The bird is wide awake and will seize until it dies, and in the end it bleeds out through the eyes, nostrils, beak, and anus. Awful to watch, the bird is in agony until death. Pain medications don't work since it's a neurotoxin, but I've given them anyway just to do SOMETHING.) 

(had a series of poisoned birds 2 years ago
they came in neurological and seizuring
tried the milk with the first few
it didnt help these particular birds
as the poison had taken it toll
the others that came in in the same condition
i had put down
the smell could be an additional problem
if it is a bad stink
could be a bacterial or fungal infection
that needs to be treated as well)

(Never been able to save a poisoned pigeon- by the time I get them, 
they have absorbed so much poison it's too late. Put to sleep ASAP.
I've tried Toxiban, both antidotes to organophosphates (like 2PAM), 
crop flushing- they are dying and suffering when admitted.
Sig, I'm glad the milk worked!)


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Altgirl35 and I appreciate your labor of effort on this and if the bird is in the real bad stages I think I would cull it quick but that smell question was real important to me---Thanks----c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

pdpbison: Did not think about the throat being so sore like that and maybe try frozen peas and baby whole wheat cereal make it a little thicker and make into balls maybe so not too watery and it might help to slide down some of that debris as well and I really think it will do better on seed--little by little than anything else and the bird knows what it is and will really appreciate --maybe wheat bread mixed with a hard boiled egg or even raw if you trust it made into little pop balls so to speak and I hope your birdie improves every day---little by little---and pretty soon maybe you will say: My Goodness this bird is eating on its own---and that will make your day...Best wishes for you and your bird..c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi altgirl35,





altgirl35 said:


> great info pb, i have a couple of questions if you don't mind.
> have you ever tried toxiban???




I have not tried it...and I am not familiar with it.

I will do some 'googles' and find out more.




> and if we can't give them fluids can the birds be sub q during their ordeal to keep them hydrated?




Well...as I understand it, different Poisons will have differing metabolic and or other routes or varied, espective mechanisms.


I can not say how widely or generally a "No Water" policy would apply to the gamut of possible Poison types or kinds.


I understand that this ( "no water" ) applies to 'Avitrol', or other orally ingested Seeds which have been soaked in Water/Fat soluable Organophosphates.

Given that the 'Avitrol' poison Seeds and GI absorbed Poison they bring, will tend to have been passed from the Bird's system or been neutralized metabolically in 24 to 30 hours or so, and, that it is unlikely a victim would have been dehydrated prior to ingesting the Poisoned Seeds, there should be no pressing need to elect any emergency rehydration methods...nor to worry about their hydration status, till after their system has cleared the Poison.

Seems to me...

And or, a somewhat dehydrated Pigeon, if eating 'Avitrol' Poisoned Seeds, would stand a better chance of survival, for a slower rate of absorbing the Poison, for having a slower Crop-to-Stomach-to-Gizzard-to-Intestine-to-Poop/Urate time-line-schedule, than a well hydrated Pigeon.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

altgirl35 said:


> okay i asked 3 different rehabbers and here is what they said
> (No weird smell -- could be something else going on.



None the less, various common Poisons used as Avidices will cause the afflicted Pigeon to have distinct, respective body odors.




> I've rescued a poisoned pigeon by pumping its crop full with warm milk that had it poop its gut out. Keep that in mind, Jodi: birds are lactose intolerant, and in the case of poisoning that could work to your advantage since milk binds to poison and then eliminates it quickly. Worth a try since the bird will otherwise die.




Good idea...sounds like it would be well worth having in one's 'Tool Box'..!




> An Avitrol poisoned bird twitches about uncontrollably since it can't stand nor use its wings anymore, and it may have secondary injuries from the crash landing. The bird is wide awake and will seize until it dies,




Well...far as I have seen...yes and no..."Yes" mostly, but, not all afflicted ones die...the seizures can abate or taper off, the Bird sleeps...wakes up feeling frail and wobbley and glad it's over.





> ...and in the end it bleeds out through the eyes, nostrils, beak, and anus.



This sounds like 'Warfarin', rather than 'Avitrol'.


Warfarin has an antidote - 'Vitamine K' ( if memory serve )




> Awful to watch, the bird is in agony until death. Pain medications don't work since it's a neurotoxin, but I've given them anyway just to do SOMETHING.)




Supposedly, Diazepam ( 'Valium') can save an 'Avitrol' Pigeon if he is on a margainally lethal poison absorbsion rate, by calming the nervous system and avoiding Heart Failure.


I believe it is Heart Failure which kills them with 'Avitrol'....their pulse-rates go off-the-chart...





> (had a series of poisoned birds 2 years ago
> they came in neurological and seizuring
> tried the milk with the first few
> it didnt help these particular birds
> ...



Hard to say what was giong on...



> (Never been able to save a poisoned pigeon- by the time I get them,
> they have absorbed so much poison it's too late. Put to sleep ASAP.
> I've tried Toxiban, both antidotes to organophosphates (like 2PAM),
> crop flushing- they are dying and suffering when admitted.
> Sig, I'm glad the milk worked!)



Of maybe sixty or so seemingly Poisoned Pigeons I have had over the years, I have had maybe ten survive.

Most seemed to be from 'avitrol', but many were something else.


Actually, I had 26 Poisoned Pigeons all at one time, not 'Avitrol' but had a unpleasant 'burnt' smell also...these were very sad and 'wilty' and were found standing in water-puddles, heads in the water even...like very tired Horses.


All died in a few hours.


The survivors of what I have taken to be 'Avitrol', either threw up their Crop's contents of the Poisoned Corn, or, I gently 'massaged' up and out as many as I could, one at a time, over hours.


Some, had empty Crops on arrival or when I found them, and, a few of these survived also, I imagine, because even though the entire poisoned meal had passed beyond their Crops, the total dose, and or absorbsion rate, remained, for those individuals, sub-lethal.


Phil
Lv


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## Lovebird (Aug 25, 2010)

*How to wash the crop of the bird in case of poisoning*

Get a syringe or dropper and fill it with water. Open the beak of the bird and squeeze the water into the right side of the bird's throat (left side of you if the bird is facing you). Put as much as the crop takes and then upside down the bird and gently massage the crop keeping the bird's throat and the head straight without any curves. The bird is going to throw up and empty the crop. This helps to wash the poison out.


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