# long distance strains



## 1pigeon

how many long distance strains in US. beside Jan Aardens.And which lofts are the best long distance in US.
I know quite a few person that said there birds flow 500miles ..600 miles .


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Long Distance Strains*

Once upon a time, before I got hooked on YB racing, I thought that the development and advancement of a long distance family in the US would be a worthy goal. Then the reality sank in....our combine eliminated the 600 mile race altogether...and about half as many fanciers race the OB's in our Combine. There is very little competition in the US today for long distance races. And the best that I can figure, what long distance birds are available, most likely could not hold a candle to the homers of forty years ago. Back in those good ole days...I remember an important 1000 mile race where the winner was back in two days. Now that was a Champion !! I really think you have to go to Europe in order to purchase really decent long distance stock.


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## Matt D.

my grandfather and I keep bekuerts and they are good at all ranges of distance but are best at 500+ miles.


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## The Flying Kiwi

*Long Distance Strains*

Hi, 

Im from New Zealand which is made up of two islands (North and South islands) with a passage of water between the two islands of about 60miles. 
Now unless you live at the far end of either island you cant really race extreme longdistance. I live in Christchurch which is about the middle of the south island on the east coast. Our federation will fly at least 2x 700km and 1-2x 800km races in old birds, but with the resurgence in old bird longdistance flying we have this year added a 900km and 1000km to the old bird programe. 

For the real long distance 
M Father and I have a mentor who races out of Auckland near the top of the North island who obviously can can race far greater distances than us. 

He was a great freind of my Grandfather and his father a friend of my Greatgrandfather. 

He would be the best and mot succsesful flyer in the country!! 

In one season 2 years ago he took 

The first Four placings at Timaru 900km Velocity of 1413.45mpm. 

The following week 1st & 2nd placings at Dunedin 1085km Velocity of 1496.20

Then 1st place from Invecargill the bottom of the south Island at 1290km and a Velocity of 1435.92. 
The Invercargill Bird was the only bird on the day and completed the journey in 14hours and 15mins arriving 9:30pm in the dark. 

One of the Dunedin birds and the Invercargill bird were Brothers. 

NOW LAST YEAR AN AMERICAN PIGEON FANCIER CAME OUT TO NEW ZEALAND AND BROUGHT 25 LONGDISTANCE YOUNGSTERS FROM THE LONGDISTANCE FLYER I MENTIONED
These birds are a 1/4 Jan Aarden x old longdistance families 

thanks
_________________
Anthony Courtier 
Courtier Stables 
Christchurch


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## desmet

*long distance races*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Once upon a time, before I got hooked on YB racing, I thought that the development and advancement of a long distance family in the US would be a worthy goal. Then the reality sank in....our combine eliminated the 600 mile race altogether...and about half as many fanciers race the OB's in our Combine. There is very little competition in the US today for long distance races. And the best that I can figure, what long distance birds are available, most likely could not hold a candle to the homers of forty years ago. Back in those good ole days...I remember an important 1000 mile race where the winner was back in two days. Now that was a Champion !! I really think you have to go to Europe in order to purchase really decent long distance stock.


I totally disagree! My combine still flies and has for years the 500 and 600 mile races, and another combine up North of me also flies these races. I would put our birds up with any European birds, and I would expect that we would do just as well as they do. If what your saying was true. Then our yb's wouldn't be as good as theirs either, and we no that's not true.


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## re lee

Most any strain will produce distance birds. Now birds known for there distance performance has been around along time. Strain well base line at best is all you can get. Old line birds have long been bred out of the key strain. Beckarts are not bad at short and long but they really are not the true birds any more. wegges. sions, bastins stassarts. gurnays. gordans ,trentons, jan ardens. were all old line birds BUT find one NOW that is really that name. Breed your birds for what you need Janssens have been proven short and long distance. But agin Each loft has to breed there foundation there way. Hope for the best and improve each year. Many clubs still fly the 500 mile. Old birds are the true test to breeding stock, young birds is both breeding and luck. Many an old timer would not push the young birds as done today. BUT you can not have the 1 loft races as easy wih old birds. But then some people even in old birds prefure not to push there birds past the 300 or 350.


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## lawman

Hi 1pigeon,

You asked how many long distance strains are in US. beside Jan Aardens. And which lofts are the best long distance in US.

Unfortunately some of the long distance bloodlines are still here in name only and they resemble nothing like the original blood of a hundred years ago. Their perfornace at the long and extreme long distance also leaves a lot to be desired. In short most here in the US never are flown much over 600 mi. so we really dont have true long distance blood any more. 

For instance the Trentons of old could fly 1000 mi. with ease and many did so back to back. I dont know of a single "Trenton" breeder that can show their current blood capable of performing this feit. Heck for that matter I dont know of any other bloodlines that can make that claim here in the US.

It's really rather sad we, (the US) used to be the long distance champions of the world. Now its Europe and Austrailia where you have to go to get the true long distance birds that still perform today.

Now with that all said, you can find the lofts that perform the most consistant at the distance........ Perhaps you will be able to find someone locally that you can obtain distance blood from, just go to 

pigeon.org/pdf/LongDistanceChampionsHistoricalListing.pdf

Good luck, Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft

desmet said:


> I totally disagree! My combine still flies and has for years the 500 and 600 mile races, and another combine up North of me also flies these races. I would put our birds up with any European birds, and I would expect that we would do just as well as they do. If what your saying was true. Then our yb's wouldn't be as good as theirs either, and we no that's not true.


What exactly are you disagreeing with ? My combine still flys 500 mile races, and has for decades, and so do the combines to the east and south of us. A check with the National Organizations and the trend in the US is more YB's races not 600 mile races.

My point, is that I chose to be a YB specialist. Because among other things, our Combine has about twice as many birds in a typical YB race, then an OB race. So there is twice as much competition. Plus, you can send YB's to One Loft races across the country or the world, and thus compete with the best lofts in the country or the world.

I said that there is little competition for long distance racing in the USA. Where in all 50 states can a person enter a long distance event and fly againest say....a hundred of the best lofts in America ? You can't....You have no way of really knowing how bad your birds really are. For all you know, there may be very few if any really good birds in your combine. How do you really know ? Your only competition is right there in your little combine. And big or small, it is still only your combine members. Perhaps your Combine's top 5 loft's would be in the bottom 1/3 of our Combine...week after week...so maybe you shouldn't even fantasize that your American birds are anywhere near the racing machines coming out of Europe, especially if all you have to base it on, is your local Combine experience....


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## learning

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> ...Perhaps your Combine's top 5 loft's would be in the bottom 1/3 of our Combine...week after week...so maybe you shouldn't even fantasize that your American birds are anywhere near the racing machines coming out of Europe, especially if all you have to base it on, is your local Combine experience....


I think Warren makes a good point here. I know that a lot of American fanciers get offended when someone says that their American birds don't measure up to the best in Europe. While I don't neccessarily think that our birds are worse than theirs, it is valid that, unless you are flying with the Gulf Coast Club in the Tampa area, most American flyers are competing against, at best, several hundred, maybe 1000 birds at a time. In Belgium and Holland they are seeing competition in the tens of thousands on a weekly basis. This, in and of itself, makes for a higher level of competition.

I think this is why the one loft races have become so popular. It is really the only way of seeing how your birds match up against the very best breeders in the nation, or in the case on the Million Dollar Race in South Africa, the Million Euro Race in China or the World Ace Challenge in Texas and a few others, the world. Until we see some exponential growth of the sport in this country, we just can't claim to have the same level of competition over here. I guess another good analogy here would be the sport of soccer in the USA. While it is a great game that has its supporters in this country, it will never be the national passtime it is in Europe and other parts of the world. Because of this fact, it is much more difficult for the US to produce a world class team at the Olympics or World Cup. It's not to say we don't produce some world class soccer players over here, they just don't enjoy the support and competative opportunities that are available elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft

learning said:


> I think Warren makes a good point here. I know that a lot of American fanciers get offended when someone says that their American birds don't measure up to the best in Europe. While I don't neccessarily think that our birds are worse than theirs, it is valid that, unless you are flying with the Gulf Coast Club in the Tampa area, most American flyers are competing against, at best, several hundred, maybe 1000 birds at a time. In Belgium and Holland they are seeing competition in the tens of thousands on a weekly basis. This, in and of itself, makes for a higher level of competition.
> 
> I think this is why the one loft races have become so popular. It is really the only way of seeing how your birds match up against the very best breeders in the nation, or in the case on the Million Dollar Race in South Africa, the Million Euro Race in China or the World Ace Challenge in Texas and a few others, the world. Until we see some exponential growth of the sport in this country, we just can't claim to have the same level of competition over here. I guess another good analogy here would be the sport of soccer in the USA. While it is a great game that has its supporters in this country, it will never be the national passtime it is in Europe and other parts of the world. Because of this fact, it is much more difficult for the US to produce a world class team at the Olympics or World Cup. It's not to say we don't produce some world class soccer players over here, they just don't enjoy the support and competative opportunities that are available elsewhere.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Dan



Oh ! Dan..... !...you just say it so much better sometimes. YB racing in the USA and the World, is becoming much more competitive. I certainly am hoping, at least in this area of speciality, that soon the USA will indeed be producing World Class YB's. And the only way I can figure that you can decipher the difference between great birds, loft location, management or training systems, etc. Is the One Loft race, which conducts a number of distance events over a period of several weeks. Only after several events can you then compare the performance, which in theory....should indicate better genetics. Which getting back to long distance blood lines....how can you really judge the quality of the best long distance lines in USA ? I don't know.

I think Law Man is correct. The best USA long distance lines...are gone...they went out...when the 1,000 mile races were dropped. I am sure someone will say they have been line breeding a 1,000 mile family now for 40 years....and I bet they are like the Trentons a local pigeon guy has....they get lost off the landing board...has yet to get one into a race....they can't find home !  
So which USA family of birds produces the most 500 & 600 mile day birds ?


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## desmet

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> What exactly are you disagreeing with ? My combine still flys 500 mile races, and has for decades, and so do the combines to the east and south of us. A check with the National Organizations and the trend in the US is more YB's races not 600 mile races.
> 
> My point, is that I chose to be a YB specialist. Because among other things, our Combine has about twice as many birds in a typical YB race, then an OB race. So there is twice as much competition. Plus, you can send YB's to One Loft races across the country or the world, and thus compete with the best lofts in the country or the world.
> 
> I said that there is little competition for long distance racing in the USA. Where in all 50 states can a person enter a long distance event and fly againest say....a hundred of the best lofts in America ? You can't....You have no way of really knowing how bad your birds really are. For all you know, there may be very few if any really good birds in your combine. How do you really know ? Your only competition is right there in your little combine. And big or small, it is still only your combine members. Perhaps your Combine's top 5 loft's would be in the bottom 1/3 of our Combine...week after week...so maybe you shouldn't even fantasize that your American birds are anywhere near the racing machines coming out of Europe, especially if all you have to base it on, is your local Combine experience....


What I disagree with, is your opinion that the birds coming out of Europe are better old birds then the ones we have here. These futurity races that you are sending your yb's too, are no doubt competing with some of the best birds in America. These same futurity races have birds entered in them from Europe. I'm pretty confident that if someone is going to send a bird from Europe, that they are not going to send junk. I'm also pretty confident by the way you speak, that you fly very well against all of these people in these futurity races. So what makes you think that your yb's could do well against them, but as old birds you won't even hold a candle to them? As far as knowing how bad my combines birds are? Well all across America people make friends in the sport of pigeon racing, they also send each other birds to try. I've done it myself and I know others on here have done it. I'm pretty sure you've even done it yourself. I got some of my birds from a guy up north, who got his birds the same place Vic Miller got some of his. Well these yb's grow up and are flown as Ob's. Competing in other combines. Some doing very well, and some not so well. So there is a way to tell if your OB's are as good as the rest in America. Another way to tell is read what the Europeans are saying about their distance birds that they buy from America, because they do buy them, and a lot of them have done very well.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

desmet said:


> What I disagree with, is your opinion that the birds coming out of Europe are better old birds then the ones we have here.... you won't even hold a candle to them? :


If you go back to my orginal post this is what I said...

There is very little competition in the US today for long distance races. And the best that I can figure, what long distance birds are available, most likely could not hold a candle to the homers of forty years ago. Back in those good ole days...I remember an important 1000 mile race where the winner was back in two days. Now that was a Champion !! I really think you have to go to Europe in order to purchase really decent long distance stock.

When they talk about a long distance race's over there...like the Barcelona...there are many....tens of thousands of birds competing. Also if American OB's were so great, then one wonder's why merchants such as Mike Ganus goes to Europe to purchase the Champions for his stud farm...if Champions of equal stature were available right here in USA ? 
I mean when I went shopping for pigeons from one of the World's greatest middle distance Champions...it was not from someone in Topeka, Kansas...no I had to go to Holland.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

PS.

I wish it were not true...and I hope someday America will have some great pigeons that can compete anywhere in the World...but for now...the reality is...Europe is, and as always been, the center of the Racing Pigeon World.


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## desmet

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If you go back to my orginal post this is what I said...
> 
> There is very little competition in the US today for long distance races. And the best that I can figure, what long distance birds are available, most likely could not hold a candle to the homers of forty years ago. Back in those good ole days...I remember an important 1000 mile race where the winner was back in two days. Now that was a Champion !! I really think you have to go to Europe in order to purchase really decent long distance stock.
> 
> When they talk about a long distance race's over there...like the Barcelona...there are many....tens of thousands of birds competing. Also if American OB's were so great, then one wonder's why merchants such as Mike Ganus goes to Europe to purchase the Champions for his stud farm...if Champions of equal stature were available right here in USA ?
> I mean when I went shopping for pigeons from one of the World's greatest middle distance Champions...it was not from someone in Topeka, Kansas...no I had to go to Holland.


So if theses stud farms like Mike Ganus' and others like his here in the U.S are going to Europe to buy these champion pigeons are they not being sold to people over here? people who are buying them and racing the same exact pigeons that the Europeans race? The reason people go to Europe to buy these pigeons is as you said. They are the racing capitol of the world. They get all of the press, because it is so huge. I understand what you are saying. It's just that I can't agree, because we buy their birds, they buy our birds. We fly the same stuff. I will concede that you can probably find more champions over there, but the reason for this, is there are a lot more fliers. If you win this flamingo race. I will not be surprised to see some Europeans trying to buy your birds, and if they do, I bet they fly them on their OB races as well.(jmho)


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## SmithFamilyLoft

desmet said:


> .... If you win this flamingo race. I will not be surprised to see some Europeans trying to buy your birds, and if they do, I bet they fly them on their OB races as well.(jmho)


Dear Desmet,

I know you should never say never....but there is such a slim chance that I would ever consider such an offer....and certainly NOT to anyone in Europe.

I have not invested my blood, sweat and tears, not to mention the Smith Family fortune, into building a Premiere American Family...only to turn around and send them away to foreign shores...besides everyone in the Family is comitted to retaining all American Champions right here at the Mother Loft.


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## open_sky

after some time away from the spost i have intrest of stating back racing. i have been browsing the internet for different things, reeding your coments about the grate mentor you and you farther have over there of the long distant birds and reeding that the mentor sell's some pigeons, i am very interested of getting more information about the pigeons he has and if he still sell's them. Will 




The Flying Kiwi said:


> Hi,
> 
> Im from New Zealand which is made up of two islands (North and South islands) with a passage of water between the two islands of about 60miles.
> Now unless you live at the far end of either island you cant really race extreme longdistance. I live in Christchurch which is about the middle of the south island on the east coast. Our federation will fly at least 2x 700km and 1-2x 800km races in old birds, but with the resurgence in old bird longdistance flying we have this year added a 900km and 1000km to the old bird programe.
> 
> For the real long distance
> M Father and I have a mentor who races out of Auckland near the top of the North island who obviously can can race far greater distances than us.
> 
> He was a great freind of my Grandfather and his father a friend of my Greatgrandfather.
> 
> He would be the best and mot succsesful flyer in the country!!
> 
> In one season 2 years ago he took
> 
> The first Four placings at Timaru 900km Velocity of 1413.45mpm.
> 
> The following week 1st & 2nd placings at Dunedin 1085km Velocity of 1496.20
> 
> Then 1st place from Invecargill the bottom of the south Island at 1290km and a Velocity of 1435.92.
> The Invercargill Bird was the only bird on the day and completed the journey in 14hours and 15mins arriving 9:30pm in the dark.
> 
> One of the Dunedin birds and the Invercargill bird were Brothers.
> 
> NOW LAST YEAR AN AMERICAN PIGEON FANCIER CAME OUT TO NEW ZEALAND AND BROUGHT 25 LONGDISTANCE YOUNGSTERS FROM THE LONGDISTANCE FLYER I MENTIONED
> These birds are a 1/4 Jan Aarden x old longdistance families
> 
> thanks
> _________________
> Anthony Courtier
> Courtier Stables
> Christchurch


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## fastpitch dad

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If you go back to my orginal post this is what I said...
> 
> There is very little competition in the US today for long distance races. And the best that I can figure, what long distance birds are available, most likely could not hold a candle to the homers of forty years ago. Back in those good ole days...I remember an important 1000 mile race where the winner was back in two days. Now that was a Champion !! I really think you have to go to Europe in order to purchase really decent long distance stock.


Warren ,
I was reading these post and was wondering why we(meaning the US) don't have a race to test old birds. The cost for flying YB's in one loft races can be reasonable to very costly. So why couldn't someone have a one loft race in the fall and hold the birds over until spring and do an old bird series with the same birds. I'm new to this sport , so I really don't know if this would work or not. I understand the cost of the race would go up because of the care for the birds over winter . If someone did something like this and the bird performed well in the YB series and the old bird series it would tell you If your birds were short, middle, long distance. Like I said I'm new to the sport and I'm just thinking out loud.

I do enjoy reading your post, you are a wealth of imformation.


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## ohiogsp

We forgot about the Abelienes (sp) they were long distance birds and alot of people here is my area used them and the Trentons. My club flew the 1000 mile races in the past and we share our trailer with the Fort Wayne club they flew them also. I think a guy named Milton Hafner from Fort Wayne had the fastest 1000 mile race ever recorded and his bird came at 2pm on the second day. They said it was like 1100 ypm or something crazy like that. I could not imagine that. Anyway, I think some long distance lines are still alive here in the US. My best pair of breeders I had last year were from stassarts and haveneths lines. The guy I got them from has bred them straight and has records going back the to 40's. Really no way to prove it, but I think his birds could still do the long ones. We fly a 550 here in our club and the old birds here have really started to make a come back for our club anyway. Some people in our club got tired of loosing young birds and have went back to old birds. Maybe there is hope for the long ones to come back in the future.


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## AngelsWingsloft

black diamonds, delbars, r some good lond distance birds


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## Alamo

As everyone knows,Young Bird racing got alot more popular in the last 10 to 20 years because more "Better" pigeons were available,by breeders such as Ganus..But don`t forget that Young Bird racing is alot more "EQUAL",when it comes to the competion between a fairly new flyer,and the established lofts...Lofts in competion for 2 or 3 yeras flying YB`s ONLY,and the availability of good racing stock on the market,can hold their own pretty well....It takes a little more time to learn to "KEEP" the birds that will race/win from the distance,and just as important then that is,the young loft owner has to "LEARN" how to handle the distance pigeons...They have to set them up for the chosen race that he wants them to win etc...This takes a little more learning,and that is what gives the established lofts a much bigger edge...YB racing is alot more FUN for the newer flyer..And he can see better results much quicker,by his birds...I think the OB races are great also,and should be enjoyed by everyone who has racing pigeons...Sometimes the young flyer,with a young family of his own,has to keep the Mrs happy...And OB racing is time consuming,even though alot of roadwork is not needed...
As much as I love racing the YB`s,there`s a special thrill seeing a pigeon fold it`s wings and dive right into the loft after a 500 or 600 mile race...Especially if it`s one of a few day birds !!! Pigeons as such bring much happiness,and brag-a-bility !! hahaha!!!! Alamo


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## g0ldenb0y55

Great reading on this thread!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

fastpitch dad said:


> Warren ,
> I was reading these post and was wondering why we(meaning the US) don't have a race to test old birds. The cost for flying YB's in one loft races can be reasonable to very costly. So why couldn't someone have a one loft race in the fall and hold the birds over until spring and do an old bird series with the same birds. I'm new to this sport , so I really don't know if this would work or not. I understand the cost of the race would go up because of the care for the birds over winter . If someone did something like this and the bird performed well in the YB series and the old bird series it would tell you If your birds were short, middle, long distance. Like I said I'm new to the sport and I'm just thinking out loud.
> 
> I do enjoy reading your post, you are a wealth of imformation.


 Well, all one would have to do, is decide to hold the birds over till the following spring, and see how many fliers would be interested in putting money up for such an event. I suspect that the numbers just won't be there, and for commercial reasons, it would make more sense to clear the loft out, and fill it up again with YB's at $100-$125 a head perch fee. One of the challenges, is if you have YB's in the One Loft event which do very well, you may want them back in your hands, rather then hold them over and maybe lose them ?

This past season, our UPC Combine ran $3000 in the red on the OB season. Those expensive 500 mile races ended up with 200 to 300 birds in the truck !!
When you consider that the YB races have 1500-2000 birds...you can begin to see the future, at least in our 100+ member combine.


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## Alamo

Here in Western,Pa...Eastern Ohio area,we fly a AU sponsored 400 & 500 mile race in OB`s..There are 9 combines,with lofts from 4 states...The birdage is between 1,200 to 1,800..and the lofts could and have reached about 140....These Federation races are very competitive,and all the BIG lofts fly in them...By BIG I mean the lofts that are also Breeders/Sellers of outstanding pigeons...Pigeons that do great in the YB money races...
So to all who think that OB racing is a thing of the past !!! As one of the announcers on the weekly college football allways says >>> "Not So Fast My Friend" !! <<<..Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Alamo said:


> Here in Western,Pa...Eastern Ohio area,we fly a AU sponsored 400 & 500 mile race in OB`s..There are 9 combines,with lofts from 4 states...The birdage is between 1,200 to 1,800..and the lofts could and have reached about 140....These Federation races are very competitive,and all the BIG lofts fly in them...By BIG I mean the lofts that are also Breeders/Sellers of outstanding pigeons...Pigeons that do great in the YB money races...
> So to all who think that OB racing is a thing of the past !!! As one of the announcers on the weekly college football allways says >>> "Not So Fast My Friend" !! <<<..Alamo



Well...I think you made my point. In order to get a 1800 bird OB race, you need to get 9 Combines within 4 States, just to get 140 lofts in order to make it happen. Back when I was a kid, you would have had 140 lofts, just within a single combine. So, 500 mile OB racing with 1800+ birds might not be completely over....but out of the 800 clubs in the AU, how many can fly a 500 mile event with 1800+ birds every week.....as compared to what was available in 1955 or 1965 ? Or even 1985 or 1995 ?

Actually the number of 1800 you throw out there, would have been a club race, back in the good ole days in many of the New Jersey clubs. But, I was not suggesting at least that they were over, but only that ever year, the number of say 150 mile YB's flown vs. the number of 500 Mile OB entries seems to be growing apart on the National level. If in your area, you can mange to pull four states and 9 Combines together for some 400-500 miles races, then I am happy for you. But for the majority of the clubs, 1800 bird 500 mile races, are for the most part, no longer available.


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## Alamo

Smith Family,you are right...But I think one of the main reasons is the loss of lofts/flyers in the hobby...As many of the older men/women leave our world for the heaven`s above,there are no new/younger flyers to take their place...Just like my son,he is not interested in pigeons at all...There are TOO MANY things for young people to do these days...When I was young,most of the guys had pigeons on the roof tops of NYC..It was a great hobby,and we had alot of fun flying the fancy pigeons..It also helped keep us out of trouble...There were no video games,computers etc...There are so many things available to keep the kids busy today...So in the long run,the total of say 15,000 lofts are so spread out in the USA,it is very hard to have very large clubs,as per the "Old Days"...The birdage is not really that bad these days...You can only ship what your truck will hold....Our combine has a 30 bird shipping limit...I don`t know if ALL the other combines/clubs have a limit or not,that fly the Federation Races that we fly with them...
I can only talk for myself on this subject...I ONLY ship birds that can WIN to any of these special long distance races...I remember long ago,when we had NO shipping limit,and we had 150 lofts in OUR combine alone,that many guys shipped everthing they had in the loft...That is,they wanted to get rid of the culls,and one way was to dump them in the 600 miler...That made the birdage alot more then it would have if they only shipped their quality birds sent to win...I only said this here because I knew it was true,and was told by many this is how you get rid of your junk !!!....But today,I don`t think this is true anymore....The cost of shipping etc makes most lofts breed less pigeons,so there is less to cull...I don`t think you have to have 200 lofts and 4,000 birds in a race to make it competive these days...The competition comes from the outstanding lofts flying great pigeons...And winning or even placing in the top 5% in any of these long races is something to brag about...I brag about placing 2 birds well in the 600 mile race..But I DO NOT brag about placing 1st to 3rd combine in a 100 mile race...
It`s no big deal winning a 100 mile race or even a 200 mile race...But races over 400 miles bring much respect within the club/combine one flys with...Alamo


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## RodSD

To answer the question I think sion and trenton here in America.


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## learning

I am new to this game but I am not totally sold on the "different horses for different courses" mentallity. I know that many people subscribe to this train of thought. I am looking forward to testing my "middle distance" birds from Warren Smith in the longer old bird races. This is vigin territory as Warren only races young birds. I have a feeling these birds will hold their own if not even better in the longer distance old bird races. 

Just my thoughts

Dan


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## ace in the hole

learning said:


> I am new to this game but I am not totally sold on the "different horses for different courses" mentallity. I know that many people subscribe to this train of thought. I am looking forward to testing my "middle distance" birds from Warren Smith in the longer old bird races. This is vigin territory as Warren only races young birds. I have a feeling these birds will hold their own if not even better in the longer distance old bird races.
> 
> Just my thoughts
> 
> Dan


Hi Dan,

I am fairly new to this game as well. I have two years of YB racing under my belt and the one 19 years ago doesn't really count. Things have changed so much since then!!.... But This year I saw something in one of my young birds that showed me a little more about that other horse. As a matter of fact I will give you two examples. 

Now, this bird I mentioned was a long distance bird from Top Gun Loft. Richard told me these birds won't reach their peak until 3 years of age and I promised him not to take his birds past 200 mile this year. As the races reached 200 miles this bird would come home from 200 miles and fly around for 10 minutes before trapping egnoring the bell. He acted like he had just came home from a five mile toss. The others would trap right in even showing some of the miles on them. Because I promised Richard not to take his birds out all the way this year this was as far out as this bird went. Not only did he do this for three races but he would come down from loft flying with the others but when I called them in he would go back up alone and fly for another 1/2 hour.

The other example is *Whitesnmore's * Houbens. He did very well with them (as young birds) on some horable smash races. He would have the only day bird or birds even being the only birds to fly straight through a rain storm. Ken is crossing them into speed and into his distance birds but he will loose part of that hardness that this family of bird has.

As you get to these long distance old bird races I think you will find that on the good weather races, tail wind days and so on your birds will do good. It is on those bad weather, windy, smash race days the fliers with the other horse will beat you. It is not that you want to fly only one family or the other but you want them both in the basket. It is called covering your bases. When you ship those birds out you never really know what mother nature might throw at you the next day (or two days from then). 

I will end this post with what Richard told me about this family of long distance birds he sent me. " If there is only one or two day birds from the race it will be these birds" 

Just giving ya my thoughts back,
Ace


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## Alamo

Ace in the Hole,very well said...I have had my pigeons since 1984...I purchased Janssens from Patti Loft out of New Jersey..He is a YB flyer only...Then I purchased Janssens from Jim Owens from Adkins Tex..He flys OB`s and YB`s...Then I received two gifts pigeons from 2 different long distance ace lofts...One a Red Sion hen,and one a BC Stassart cock...I blended these birds over the years,and have a pretty good long distance strain.....But the main reason I added the Sion/Stassart is I needed more strenght in the Janssens,so that if there was a HEAD wind,they could keep flying no matter what...My father had pigeons for 50 years,and he had Haveniths purchased/and gifted by John Blade in NYC...Blade imported Haveniths and did so for many years...These were also long distance pigeons...Three years ago,I received a couple of middle distance birds from a NEW FLYER,who paid much money for the parents...I flew the birds,and eventullay stocked one hen...What I am doing is trying to get a little more SPEED into my loft for the long races that have a TAIL WIND !!! This year,I will be flying a couple of YB`s to the 500 mile race to see if I`m getting anywhere with just one mating from the middle distance hen...By the way,in two 500 mile races,she beat my long distance birds home by 1hr or more...But the races were not tuff weather races..She looked like she extended herself to get home from the two 500 mile races..But she proved to me she had HEART..And that is important to me...Her maximim distance is 400 miles...On the 2 races mentioned above,my original birds came home like they flew a 100 mile race...They had plenty left in them...The young flyer in 2007 also gave me 3 birds that are SPRINT pigeons...I took 1st to 3rd combine with the 3 birds in the first race..I lost all 3 in the second YB race...The way I train etc,is not the way a Sprint Loft flying these type of pigeons does...So I knew eventully I would lose them..I didn`t think it would the next week...If you have middle distance pigeons,you can do well in ALL THE RACES from 100 miles to 500 miles...AS LONG AS THE WIND IS BEHIND THEM...If there is a HEADWIND,and the distance is 400 to 600 miles,you will need distance pigeons...Just like Ace in the Hole said in the previous post....Alamo


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## NO SWEAT

1pigeon said:


> how many long distance strains in US. beside Jan Aardens.And which lofts are the best long distance in US.
> I know quite a few person that said there birds flow 500miles ..600 miles .


There are fewer and fewer long distance racing pigeons with each passing day due to the costs and logistics involved. And because the emphasis wherein money is now up for grabs in the big races none of them care about long distances. Everyone wants the race done within a day and done quickly. I wish it were not this way. I love the thought of great racing pigeons somehow surviving and finding their way home from long distances. Just last year the NO SWEAT LOFT set a new long distance record in the state of Kentucky with a young bird. This young bird homed back some 700 air miles. She is a full sion blue bar. After she made it home I decided to permanently stock her and this year I have babies from her flying in a couple of big races including The 2011 American Racing Pigeon Union Covention Race that is being held in Phoenix, Arizona. As for myself I believe that the Sions have long been the best established distance strain. I take pride in still maintaining many of the best old Sions that exist today. And all of these sions are tested very very hard every year which is what is badly needed to get their name back as it once long was. I grew up with Charles Heitzman something as a grandfather to me and it soon became clear to me that he loved his 500 mile young birds and also treasured any of the sions that flew 1,000 miles. It was in these long distance racers that he learned where his best blood resided. I would love to see a national type one loft race wherein all the birds were raced as Young birds and then as yearling and then again as two year olds and have as the ultimate last race one that would be for a lot of money and for a distance at least 1,000 miles. It could be accomplished if some of the more prominent one loft fliers wanted to take on the task. But then again the large majority of fliers today could care less about long distances which is a shame. I use to correspond with Milton Haffner and I thought his long distance black checkers were beautiful And he had a great many birds that repeated the long distances several times which in itself was amazing. Yes, Sions, overall, are probably the best and most recognized strain of all the distance pigeons. The strain dominated the United States for some 40 years. What I have observed the past decade is that most of the Sion men are no longer flying their Sions out past 600 miles. Its very rare to see them race beyond this distance. Due to this, we are losing that selective process that is so important that truly states if a pigeon is good at the distance or not. Only actual testing can clearly define just how good the bird is. And of course, with distance a racing pigeon must have a keen hominmg ability first and then all else second. It is because of this that Heitzman and myself have placed so much emphasis on distance pigeons. Once you get a good distance bird then you can develop those other physical characteristics around it that you desire to improve it at various istances that butters your parsnips. Blessings. Earl Lowell Robbie "No Sweat" Robbins, Jr.--207 Longview Drive---Richmond, Kentucky [email protected] THE NO SWEAT LOFTS


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## seanG

Gene Hearl devriendts
http://genehearldevriendts.com/


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## SmithFamilyLoft

learning said:


> I am new to this game but I am not totally sold on the "different horses for different courses" mentallity. I know that many people subscribe to this train of thought. I am looking forward to testing my "middle distance" birds from Warren Smith in the longer old bird races. This is vigin territory as Warren only races young birds. I have a feeling these birds will hold their own if not even better in the longer distance old bird races.
> 
> Just my thoughts
> 
> Dan


Wow, not sure what brought this old thread back up. 

I can report that although my family of pigeons has been designed around YB events, where typically the longest event is 350 to 400 miles. Some of these birds have been flown in UPC 500 mile OB events and have won at this distance. I guess it is a matter of semantics, but I never really thought that one needed a specialized family for the 500 mile event. Some individual pigeons may do better at distances less then 300 miles, I view those kind of pigeons as "speed" pigeons.

Birds such as that might be nice for competition with your club buddies and those 100 and 150 type races. But my requirements are for a fast maturing YB which can compete in a series of race events at various distances up to and including 350-400 mile races.


It is no longer possible to develop a "Distance" line around our Combine's race schedule, as there are now only a few 500 mile events. I would think that real distance birds would need events of at least 600 miles and longer. I am reminded of a recent event in our club where a member had a breeder get out and return home some 1400 miles away. So if anyone wants to start a new line of long distance birds, breeding from birds such as this one that did a 1400 miler would be a good place to start.....maybe I should be a dealer for these "*Marks*".....but I digress. 

If anyone lives a 1000 miles or further, from York, Pa. and wants to race them from here, I am sure for a small handling fee, I can pick up the birds and feed and water them for you. What I want to see is someone break the current York, Pa. record of 1400 Miles ! Maybe with one of them fancy Sion's with the pretty 32 generation pedigree ?


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## sky tx

Janssens-Merckx/019 was good 500-600 mile birds for me.
But that was 10 years ago.
Age-Health- Cost has got me out of pigeons.


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## Kal-El

The guys in my federation are all about the long distance game. We just shipped our 600 mile race last night and there was a total of 85 pigeons, 30 of them belonged to a guy on the short end.

[Strain] names such as Roosen, Imbrecht, Jan Aarden, Fabry, and Delbar are still very familiar long distance families in these neck of the woods.


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## ERIC K

Kal-El good luck in your race , some day I'll fly that race too but it will be 700 miles for me.


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## Kal-El

Thanks Eric! But I only have one bird in the race. I'll send more when I develop a long distance family!


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## Crazy Pete

The mid west classic, I wish they had another race like that only up north. The classic is only 114 mi for me. Are there any other races like that? 
Dave


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## ERIC K

I'm working on some long distance birds too need some time . I got some Hofkens x Gronderear/VanLoon cross bread to Bandit x Lodo cross on the cock side and on the hen side Delbar/Wegge x to Wegge .

So best I can figure it will be a HOFKEN/LUDO/BANDIT+DELBAR/WEGGE = long distance pigeons. The parents of the birds I'm breeding all have 600 and 700 mile races in their history.


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## First To Hatch

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Wow, not sure what brought this old thread back up.


Because it is a great read! lol.


With that being said from what I've read online and seen in person, Devriendts sound awesome! My mentor flies them but I'm sure hes crossed them and they've really turned into his ow strain now hes had them for over 40 years, but that might be another topic of discussion.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> Because it is a great read! lol.
> 
> 
> With that being said from what I've read online and seen in person, Devriendts sound awesome! My mentor flies them but I'm sure hes crossed them and they've really turned into his ow strain now hes had them for over 40 years, but that might be another topic of discussion.


Maybe so...

But, it has been a bit of a pet peeve with me over the years. If a guy...say his name was Mr. Jones, started with some pigeons from a friend of a friend, or whatever, and the name of the "strain" was say "John's Fast Distance Family" cause they came from a guy down a street named John. 

Now say Mr. Jones here selects over the decades for what he thought was an ideal "John's Fast Family" bird for breeding, even though he never met nor talked with this guy John. Now, over those decades, there were crosses here and there, and anyway....forty years later....are they really "John's" pigeons ?

No, cause for years people have been calling them Mr. Jone's birds. That is if Mr. Jones can achieve some level of sucess. Cause the name of the "strain" always goes to the most famous fancier in the pigeon's family tree. So, if the most famous guy was "XYZ" in a line of birds, which goes back 70 some years, then OK, that is the name of the "strain" assigned to the birds.

In many if not most cases, I could show people a picture of a pigeon, and ask them what "strain" it is, and they would not be able to tell what strain it is by looking at it, or if they were here, by holding it. But, let's now take that pigeon, and let's arrange a small race between ourselves, and let's make it some distance, say 1000-1500 miles. Why would someone who has not flown any race over that distance these last say forty years, think that their "XYZ" strain, would be up to the task ? What some folks call "Long Distance" may really be middle distances when you look at it from the perspective of those races which were conducted when I was a Jr. member out to 1500 miles. Certainly puts the 500 Mile Day Bird in perspective as well.

I guess my intended point, if you can find it in here, is that in the year 2011, by my way of thinking, there are no "long distance" strains here in the USA, that I am aware of. If someone has a family of pigeons, which can be classified as a strain, and can show evidence of racing type performance at distances in excess of 1,000 miles by parents, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles, etc. then I stand corrected. There might be some obscure club somewhere which is conducting some 1,000 to 1,500 mile or longer races, but I am not aware of them. What most people are referring to are those 500-600 mile events. Those on the shorter end, might be looking at only 450 to 500 miles. Why heck a guy in your own Combine could be on the very long end and be thinking heck, there is only about fifty miles difference between his long and my middle. So...one man's "long distance" family, is the long guy's "middle distance" family.


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## First To Hatch

Well, 1,000 mile races are no more. So when we are presented 100-500 mile races, 500 will be our long distance race wouldn't it? Just like our birds have been bred to fly a shorter distance now, haven't we also adapted to todays races? I'd say a 500 mile race is a long distance race now! 500 miles is long distance now isn't it? And if it is then their are some long distance strains available, but you can't keep thinking about pigeons and races of 50 years ago, things change and we have to adapt.


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## eyespyer

Warren:
I totally understand what you are saying. I got some birds from Kirk Hardin they are from = Antoine Jacops – The Phantom – Golden Matten. I call them Kirk birds and have named all the cocks Kirk from star trek (names as follows- Captain Kirk, Tiberius Kirk, James Kirk and just plan Kirk) He did very well in old bird racing long distance. The reason I say long distance is that if you read the AU newsletters, they had reported who’s birds did what (I believe it was reported in 2010 for race season 2009) and he was in the top long distance reported. So As for long distance, I would look at the AU newsletter for the results.
Just adding something for the fire

Kirk Hardin was number 9 - note that John Lamberton was number 1 - Kirk's birds come from John Lamberton

http://pigeon-ndb.com/champ_loft.php?season=2009ob&category=LD


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## rpalmer

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Maybe so...
> 
> But, it has been a bit of a pet peeve with me over the years. If a guy...say his name was Mr. Jones, started with some pigeons from a friend of a friend, or whatever, and the name of the "strain" was say "John's Fast Distance Family" cause they came from a guy down a street named John.
> 
> Now say Mr. Jones here selects over the decades for what he thought was an ideal "John's Fast Family" bird for breeding, even though he never met nor talked with this guy John. Now, over those decades, there were crosses here and there, and anyway....forty years later....are they really "John's" pigeons ?
> 
> No, cause for years people have been calling them Mr. Jone's birds. That is if Mr. Jones can achieve some level of sucess. Cause the name of the "strain" always goes to the most famous fancier in the pigeon's family tree. So, if the most famous guy was "XYZ" in a line of birds, which goes back 70 some years, then OK, that is the name of the "strain" assigned to the birds.
> 
> In many if not most cases, I could show people a picture of a pigeon, and ask them what "strain" it is, and they would not be able to tell what strain it is by looking at it, or if they were here, by holding it. But, let's now take that pigeon, and let's arrange a small race between ourselves, and let's make it some distance, say 1000-1500 miles. Why would someone who has not flown any race over that distance these last say forty years, think that their "XYZ" strain, would be up to the task ? What some folks call "Long Distance" may really be middle distances when you look at it from the perspective of those races which were conducted when I was a Jr. member out to 1500 miles. Certainly puts the 500 Mile Day Bird in perspective as well.
> 
> I guess my intended point, if you can find it in here, is that in the year 2011, by my way of thinking, there are no "long distance" strains here in the USA, that I am aware of. If someone has a family of pigeons, which can be classified as a strain, and can show evidence of racing type performance at distances in excess of 1,000 miles by parents, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles, etc. then I stand corrected. There might be some obscure club somewhere which is conducting some 1,000 to 1,500 mile or longer races, but I am not aware of them. What most people are referring to are those 500-600 mile events. Those on the shorter end, might be looking at only 450 to 500 miles. Why heck a guy in your own Combine could be on the very long end and be thinking heck, there is only about fifty miles difference between his long and my middle. So...one man's "long distance" family, is the long guy's "middle distance" family.


This logic would also mean that African elephants bred in zoos over the years are not African elephants. The same goes with zebras, penguins, monkeys, the great cats. 

It also means that there are no German Shepherds, Dobermans, hound dogs ect.

So I have to respectfully disagree with your argument and it's logic. 

Take care.


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## First To Hatch

rpalmer said:


> This logic would also mean that African elephants bred in zoos over the years are not African elephants. The same goes with zebras, penguins, monkeys, the great cats.
> 
> It also means that there are no German Shepherds, Dobermans, hound dogs ect.
> 
> So I have to respectfully disagree with your argument and it's logic.
> 
> Take care.


I think that's different thought that's different breeds of dogs. But with pigeons its not a bunch of different breeds, just some guys had some nice pigeons and people threw their last names on em to me. I think strains are kinda wack, but to be on the in crowd so to speak, you need to tell peopl your birds are Janssens or whatever.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

rpalmer said:


> This logic would also mean that African elephants bred in zoos over the years are not African elephants. The same goes with zebras, penguins, monkeys, the great cats.
> 
> It also means that there are no German Shepherds, Dobermans, hound dogs ect.
> 
> So I have to respectfully disagree with your argument and it's logic.
> 
> Take care.


 
That's ok, not everyone can or will follow my logic. That could some day prove to have been the correct course of action, but at this moment I think the logic is correct.

My contention is that animal and bird species bred under artificial man made conditions, for some number of generations, will indeed evolve differently, then if subjected to numerous generations of natural selection pressure as found in nature. The racing pigeon is a prime example of man made selection instead of those found in the wild. You could call it a rock dove, but that wouldn't make it so. 

As the natural selection process is replaced by a fancier making the selection choices, the evolution of the colony will change. The same genetic stock placed in two different lofts, or a hundred different lofts, will all evolve differently over time. My thinking is that the more generations that are involved, then there will be a corresponding increase in the number of changes which will occur. 

In regards to your zoo elephant example. Because of their longer life spans and gestation periods, we would long be gone, but perhaps 150 elephant generations or 3,000 years from now, we might begin to see some differences in those "African elephants". Since at that point, they will not been on the African continent in over three thousands of years, so perhaps we will see that they are indeed becoming some kind of North American Zoo elephants at that point. 

Yes, there are different breeds of dogs, cats, cows, etc. just as there are pigeons. In your dog example, today's Doberman is a far cry from the original dogs produced by Louis Doberman. Today's Doberman may look similar to Dobermans from generations ago, but they most certainly have changed. The reason is simple, the guiding hand of the original breeder is no longer at work. They may look pretty, the pedigrees may trace their lines back for generations, but they would not be recognized by the original master as products of his selection criteria. Other dog fanciers, over the generations have adopted different concepts and ideas as to what the "Perfect" Doberman dog would be. My argument is that Louis Doberman himself would argue that today's dog referred to as a "Doberman", is not the product of his engineering. 

And so we go full circle back to Racing pigeons. Over time, species change. And that would include subsets within a breed, such as a "strain". I am sure if a few Great pigeon masters were to return from the dead to visit us for a day, and handle a few birds. I suspect there would be plenty of laughs as they examine the various pigeon's that is said to be of their "strain".


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## koukoukou

If you want to know what strains there are for distance races go look at the awards in the national database from the AU website. They have Long distance, Marathon and Marathon triple crown Ace pigeon categories. Then call to see what strains they have. In Europe the distance races are becoming more and more popular and I say one day it'll come back to the U.S when gas gets cheaper lol....maybe. Usually the most expensive birds in the world are the ones that win the long ob races. Not a yb furturnity race. But what do I know.


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