# Sticky  Grains, Fuel, and Pigeon Racing



## whitesnmore

In case someone is interested, here is a link to a very informative article on proper feeding of pigeons during the various stages. Ie. moulting, breeding, racing. There are 3 more links in the article explaining in detail.

http://pigeonracingpigeons.com/2010/01/09/grains-fuel-and-pigeon-racing-introduction/


----------



## Msfreebird

Great site! Thanks for posting


----------



## wayne f

Ken 
there are several good articiles on this site. I have learned alot.At my age that is about all I can do is learn!!!
Wayne


----------



## Skyeking

That is a very good article, and also an excellent link that has some very good info on pigeon diseases, egg binding, spraddle legs, and much much more.

If this link hasn't already been flagged I will flag it.

I appreciate you sharing this link.


----------



## Kal-El

Great website. Thanks Ken! Will help out a bunch!


----------



## Crazy Pete

Wayne your older than I am you can read it but can you remember it. lol
Dave


----------



## wayne f

crazy Pete
Remember what?? what was we talking about?
Wayne


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Here....want to make your life more simple. Avail yourself of the research undertaken by Purina, and feed your birds a pellet. The down side is you don't have to come up with six different other things to feed, and 14 different feed schedules. 

Here is a recent article I came across :

http://www.pigeonvitality.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=107&Itemid=51

Here is a video I made concerning the Purina Pellets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvIe3LUwiiI


----------



## Guest

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Here....want to make your life more simple. Avail yourself of the research undertaken by Purina, and feed your birds a pellet. The down side is you don't have to come up with six different other things to feed, and 14 different feed schedules.
> 
> Here is a recent article I came across :
> 
> http://www.pigeonvitality.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=107&Itemid=51
> 
> Here is a video I made concerning the Purina Pellets:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvIe3LUwiiI


 Warren I never thought I would see the day when I would see you pushing a pigeon pellets diet lol


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

LokotaLoft said:


> Warren I never thought I would see the day when I would see you pushing a pigeon pellets diet lol


Who me !? 

http://www.purinamills.com/BetterAnimals.aspx

LongView™ Animal Nutrition Center, located on 1,188 acres in Gray Summit, Mo., is the premier animal nutrition Research & Development facility in North America. Our commitment to introducing breakthrough animal nutrition products and services to meet the needs of producers and pet owners has resulted in more than 100 patents worldwide, and multiple new products, programs and line extensions every year. No other national brand of feed has invested more time in research and understanding the needs of our customers and animals


----------



## sky tx

I was not as serious about racing as some members on this site.
I fed only Purina Gold pelletts for the last few years I had birds.
The birds were good for 300 mile races. Maybe did not win the race--but came home in good times.
When you get in your late 60's and have raced for 31 years--you will look for easier ways to keep birds and enjoy them.


----------



## Guest

I have always been in favor of pellets myself , total nutrition of every bird in the loft is what it all comes down to for me , feeding grains is great but some are pickier then others so with pellets you never have that problem so kudos to all that use them ,using grains on the side are a great treat as well


----------



## whitesnmore

The only down side I see with pellets is our truck feeds only grains on a holdover. I am concerned that if the YB's have only been exposed to pellets they may not eat properly to fuel themselves for a 350 or 400 which is the typical "holdover" station. We are not allowed to provide food for the truck, that is considered interfering.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

You could try a mix of seed and pellets then  Which is what I would like to do.


----------



## Skyeking

I would like to see the ingredients panel on the Purina pigeon pellets-if they are available.


----------



## outcold00

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Who me !?
> 
> http://www.purinamills.com/BetterAnimals.aspx
> 
> LongView™ Animal Nutrition Center, located on 1,188 acres in Gray Summit, Mo., is the premier animal nutrition Research & Development facility in North America. Our commitment to introducing breakthrough animal nutrition products and services to meet the needs of producers and pet owners has resulted in more than 100 patents worldwide, and multiple new products, programs and line extensions every year. No other national brand of feed has invested more time in research and understanding the needs of our customers and animals


They must be giving you a pretty good kick back for you to be pushing purina that hard...


----------



## conditionfreak

Warren. I actually switched over to Purina Gold and Green Nutra pellets just in the past three weeks. It was a dicision I made after posts by you concerning the subject and a lot of internet investigation concerning this. Since it was breeding season when I switched over, it was a little dicey, and I had to do it with care to make sure the babies got fed well.

The switch was difficult due to there being babies and the adult birds not taking to it well at first. Ideally I could have just let the birds get real hungry and it would have happened easier. But I had to switch over gradually instead.

All went well and now the birds eat up the pellets just like grain. Heck, better than grain because with the grain the birds usually picked out what they liked and left those little black things in the feed (forgive my ignorance but I don't know one seed from another).

I feed the 100% Green pellets to my breeders right now, and 100% of the Gold to my old bird team as they are just being held over for the winter. I will start the mixing when appropriate.

The pellets were not that much more expensive, but I do have to order it in advance, whereas the grain was available immediately whenever I wanted to stop by and get it.

I have decided to continue to offer red grit to my birds as they like it and who knows what they will pick up off the ground in the way of seeds anyway. Even though with the pellets it states that grit is not necessary for them. I also occasionally use spanish peanuts as a treat, so grit will probably be necessary for that.

I also am going to offer seed occasionally, as a treat. To prepare the birds for situations described above, during "hold overs" or whatever.

So. In a nutshell. If I fail to win any races this coming season, it is your fault Warren. Certainly not mine. 


P.S. I left the canister of pellets open once, and my horse got into it and had a real good time. She loved it. It took all of my weight just to get her off of it (she is a large miniature horse).  I even had my female German Shepherd trying to eat it.

I know it sounds like I don't feed my animals well. But I do.


----------



## whitesnmore

Trees Gray said:


> I would like to see the ingredients panel on the Purina pigeon pellets-if they are available.


Me too!! Someone please scan and post for us.


----------



## wayne f

I have a good friend that studied animal nutrition in college and worked several years in the poultry business,He also has homers for fun( he gave up racing years ago). I asked him if he fed anything other than regular pigeon grain, he said no why mess with a good thing! Grain and grit is all he uses year round. Another friend tells me he just uses hog pellets for his pigeons and they do fine. I am not sure what all is in the hog pellets but the protien is 15%.
I asked my feed store if they have or can get pigeon pellets. They can order for me but I would have to buy 10 bags. Now I am not that good at math but 500 pounds of pigeon pellets for 20 birds= 25 lbs per bird. I am not going to live long enough to use that much feed, so I will stay with the grains one bag at a time!
Wayne


----------



## conditionfreak

The Purina web site doesn't have info on that, but I did find this link on the web, for the Green blend. Which is the highest protien of the two and is what is recommended on the packages for breeding. I believe the Gold blend is 14 % protien. I would scan if I had any bags left, but my seed is in containers. But here is a scan of the blending recommendations that I saved from a bag.

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/pigeonpellets.htm


----------



## Crazy Pete

Take those pellets, the high protien smash them and use a maginfying glass. Now look real close, and you will see that the protien is hair. Just like the purina hi pro dog food, Hair is not digestable. And you can't feed pellets during the race season or your birds will get thirsty and stop for water. I tried it with 2 teams last yr. the team that got grain didn't come home with mudy feet.
Dave


----------



## Crazy Pete

And yes you do have to give them grit, the first ingredients in pellets is grain. It may be ground down, but its still grain.
Dave


----------



## conditionfreak

How does feeding pellets make a bird more thirsty than feeding seed?

Grit grinds down grain. Right? So if it is already ground down, how does it require grit?

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Crazy Pete

Its not ground to a powder just to little peaces. I can't seem to find the post about a yr ago some one posted that you still need to give grit with pellets. 
If you put 10 birds each in 2 sections feed grain in one and pellets in the other, and the side with pellets will go through more water. All I feed is pellets till the race season starts.
Dave


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Trees Gray said:


> I would like to see the ingredients panel on the Purina pigeon pellets-if they are available.



Here I placed a video on You Tube some weeks ago, stop the tape and you can get a peek. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvIe3LUwiiI

I was looking for things to video with my new camcorder !


----------



## Skyeking

Thansk for the information, Warren and conditionfreak.

I appreciate it.


----------



## conditionfreak

Here is some info I copy and pasted from pigeonvitality.com ( I want to give credit where credit is due). I have highlighted certain sections because it is a lot to read. I know that so called experts can be found on either side of any discussion, who disagree. So make your own choices. But a choice based on knowledge is better than a choice based on "because that is the way we always have done it".



*Around the world*, knowledge regarding avian nutrition has undergone quantum leaps in the last two decades. 

We now have a very clear understanding of the optimal nutritional requirements of pigeons.

Taking a quick look at the level of various nutrients in grain and the average level of these grains used in the various feed blends, it doesn’t take very long to realize that no grain blend can provide a complete and balanced diet. This is why over time a whole range of supplements has been developed and used successfully because they do complement the deficiencies of a diet based solely on dry grain. Further complicating the picture is that pigeons preferentially select certain grains within a mix. This means that even if a grain-blend did provide a balanced diet, it is likely that the balanced diet would be distorted by individual birds selecting the grains they liked. It has been shown, contrary to the opinion of many fanciers, that pigeons do not have nutritional wisdom. They do not necessarily know what is best for them but rather they are like children. They just eat the grain that tastes nice, and these for most pigeons are the grains that are higher in fat.

Throughout the avian world, one of the ways of combating these problems is through the provision of pelleted rations. Pelleted rations can be formulated to contain all the nutrients in just the right proportions and every pellet is the same. In this way, pelleted rations combat the two problems associated with a dry-grain diet, namely that grain diets alone intrinsically fail to provide an optimal diet and the preferential selection of certain grains. _In a well formulated pelleted ration the nutritional intake and the provision of a complete and balanced diet is guaranteed_.
Despite these advantages the use of pelleted diets has only slowly been embraced by pigeon fanciers. In all poultry species such as chickens and ducks, and in particular in the last few years in pet and companion birds such as parrots, the use of pelleted rations has steadily increased. Such rations are almost invariably recommended by avian vets around the world. The progressive veterinary-based pigeon companies around the world have in line with advances in knowledge started to manufacture and produce pellets.

We think part of the reason pigeon fanciers have been slow to use pellets is a lack of understanding of the product. Some companies produce several types of pellet, designed to be fed at different stages of the pigeon’s life. This is because the nutritional requirements at different life stages vary. In a recent article, a prominent fancier was quoted as saying that when using pellets in the stock loft the raised youngsters were beautiful but when the same birds were raced on the same pellets they seemed to have no power. This is a totally anticipated outcome. To say that one pellet formulation can supply the requirements of a pigeon throughout its whole life is like saying that the dietary requirements of a pregnant woman, a footballer and a growing child are all the same. In the chicken industry, different pelleted blends are produced for laying hens, young chicks, growing chicks, etc. In pigeons, we don’t need such a variety and the provision of too many different pellet blends would make the use of pellets unnecessarily complex. Most companies produce two blends for pigeons, one designed for the maintenance of adult birds and a second designed to be added as a proportion of the diet to a grain blend for actively racing pigeons.

Maintenance Pellets
To formulate maintenance pellets, it is simply a matter of going to the literature on the nutritional requirements of pigeons, which these days is very comprehensive and accurate. Extensive work over many years has been conducted so that not only is the ideal level in the diet of each vitamin, mineral and amino acid (amino acids combine to make proteins) known but also the ideal levels relative to each other. These nutrients can then be blended together in the form of a pellet to provide a complete and balanced diet. Many fanciers will say, “I have kept pigeons for many years. I have always fed them grain. They seem fine. Why bother?” What I feel is that many such fanciers accept certain problems that have a nutritional base as a normal part of pigeon management. Examples here include:

1. Hens past 7 years of age no longer breeding winners – associated with decreased yolk and albumen quality, resulting in poor embryo development and the chick getting off to a poorer start. 
2. Cocks and hens developing arthritic changes and gout by 8 - 9 years of age – associated with high levels of protein, too low calcium and incorrect levels of vitamin A and D3 in the diet. 
3. Obesity in non-breeding hens – associated with fat contents of over 6% in the diet. 
4. Infertility in middle-aged cocks – associated with an incorrect vitamin A and vitamin E ratio in the diet. These are both fat-soluble vitamins and are absorbed into the body via the same pathways. Vitamin E is needed for normal sperm function (it affects lipid metabolism in the sperm head). Giving too much vitamin A in the diet means there are no pathways available to absorb vitamin E, leading to vitamin E deficiency even if there is plenty in the diet.


----------



## conditionfreak

5. Recurrent canker in nestlings, despite medical management – low protein levels in the diet and poor balance of nutrients predisposes to disease generally. 

The list goes on and on. Recently, a fancy-pigeon owner rang me. He kept a breed of fancy pigeon that was notorious for poor fertility. Traditional wisdom was that this breed was of poor fertility and that a likely cause was Salmonella. Each year, for the previous 5 years, the fancier had paired 30 pairs together, producing only 6 – 8 youngsters per round. He was becoming totally exasperated and ended up driving 100 miles to our clinic to investigate the cause. The birds appeared normal in the hand and were fed grain, grit and water. Six birds were anaesthetized and the gonads were examined with an endoscope through a keyhole incision in their left side. There were no visible abnormalities (such as cysts, adhesions, or tumors) in any of the birds’ gonads. Blood was drawn from each bird for a Chlamydia test (Chlamydia is the organism that causes eye-colds in young pigeons and can damage the gonads of older birds leading to irregular laying in hens and premature infertility in cocks). The best way to diagnose Salmonella (the organism that causes the disease Paratyphoid) is to culture the site of an infection. Endoscope-guided swabs were collected for testing, taken directly from the gonads. All test results for disease were negative. The birds were changed to a pelleted ration. The next year the first round from 30 pairs contained 57 youngsters. 
Fanciers asking if the pellets contain medication to control canker are common. On pelleted rations, they found they no longer needed to treat for canker. In Australia, it is illegal to add medication to pellets (except with a prescription). This effect is simply due to the pellets providing a complete diet and the resultant increased ability of the healthier bird to resist disease. 

In another instance, a fancier added turkey grower pellets to his grain blend during breeding. The high level of protein and calcium in this blend resulted in beautiful youngsters being produced. Because of this, he kept feeding the pellets as a proportion of the diet to his stock birds while they were not breeding. Several months later, some of these started to get sick. One was euthanized and autopsied. The persistently high protein, high calcium, high vitamin D3 levels in this diet for non-growing or breeding birds had damaged their kidneys and they were developing kidney failure. Correction of the diet resulted in all remaining birds recovering within 2 weeks. 

Fanciers often add iron to the diet or copper sulphate to the drinker (to combat canker). These are both heavy metals that are quickly absorbed into the system but only slowly excreted. With repeated low doses, these birds look fine but as the minerals accumulate in their bodies they have a variety of effects. The most common of these in the stock loft is reduced fertility. It can be hard for the fancier to relate the dead-in-shell youngsters, clear eggs and non-laying hens experienced during breeding to these treatments, which may have been given months earlier. 

With the nutritional knowledge available and the expertise used in making maintenance pellets, to me it makes no sense not to use them. Often they are also cheaper than grain. 
Racing Pellets
The other type of pellet made is what is termed a racing pellet. These are designed to be added to a grain blend. They are a more concentrated blend of vitamins, minerals and amino acids and designed to complement the deficiencies of the grain. The term racing pellet can be misleading because when added to a grain mix at between 10-20% they can be used as an alternative to maintenance pellets. They are however principally used in birds that are actively racing. 

Racing pellets are made for two main reasons. 1. A maintenance pellet cannot provide the fluctuating nutritional requirements of competing race birds. Fat and energy requirements for a race bird fluctuate depending on how much work it is having, the distance of the race for which it is being prepared, and the weather. Grain blends need to be modified to cater for this fluctuating need. The fat and energy content of the diet is usually increased with cold weather and increased work load through the provision of high fat (e.g. safflower, hemp, linseed) and high carbohydrate (e.g. maize, wheat) grains and lowered during warm weather and times of less work. The experienced and astute fancier can determine the exact level through watching his birds’ behavior and monitoring weight changes through handling. If the birds appear a bit tired or light, the fat and energy content should be increased provided the protein level stays above 12% of the total diet. Total protein levels of less than 12% can lead to loss of muscle bulk. 2. Food is a principal reward for a pigeon on return from a race. As pellets are not as palatable as grain, providing only pellets on return may compromise the reward principle unless the bird is very hungry. Racing pellets allow the provision of a grain-based diet but still allow the fancier to provide a complete diet. 
To produce racing pellets, the level of each vitamin, mineral and amino acid can be calculated for the average grain blend. Where deficiencies or imbalances are identified, a pellet can be produced to correct these and create a balanced and complete diet when added to the grain mix at a particular proportion. Most racing pellets are designed to be added to a grain blend at around 10%. With the use of pellets (be they racing or maintenance pellets) there is no need to provide any other supplement – in fact, their use just distorts the correct diet. The only additional food items the birds need are grit and water. 

Disadvantages of Pellets
So what are the disadvantages:

1. Palatability – Pigeons that are not accustomed to pellets initially do not like them and will select grain every time. Usually racing pellets are accepted more readily than maintenance pellets. It takes most birds 2 – 3 days to become used to them. 
2.Watery droppings – Birds fed pellets initially drink more. This makes their droppings wet. Usually within 2 – 3 weeks water intake becomes normal and the droppings improve. Usually however birds on the maintenance pellets, but not racing pellets, have droppings that are not quite as tight as those fed grain.
3. Wastage in the bag – Because the pellets rub against each other in the bag, some powder is produced. This leads to a small amount of wastage. 

These disadvantages have got to be offset against the enormous advantage of providing a complete nutritious diet. Advantages such as healthier more fertile longer-lived stock birds, increased disease resistance, and improved race performance. We would strongly encourage fanciers to consider the use of pelleted rations. 

By Dr. Colin Walker, Melbourne Vet clinic


----------



## Skyeking

Thank you for the detailed information and the pro's and cons of using pellets.

This is an excellent thread.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

I don't see much of a downside...but I do understand the emotional need of humans to reinvent the wheel.....and to "tinker" with something.....and to "fix" something even when it is not broke. Which is why, I have felt compelled to add something extra at every turn. Can't just let well enough alone. So, if one is going to use one of these specially formulated pigeon pellets, the first thing you have to do, is break yourself of your own addiction to fiddling with the system. I know for a lot of us, that will leave us with a bunch of extra time on our hands. And we won't know what to do with ourselves.......

Which might explain why there is a market for so much "stuff"....fanciers feel better if they are adding something to the feed or the water...it could be totally harmless and useless it does not matter....even if it is bad for them, it does not matter, we must fulfill this need inside us to *do *something, anything.....


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

conditionfreak said:


> Warren. I actually switched over to Purina Gold and Green Nutra pellets just in the past three weeks. It was a dicision I made after posts by you concerning the subject and a lot of internet investigation concerning this. Since it was breeding season when I switched over, it was a little dicey, and I had to do it with care to make sure the babies got fed well.
> 
> The switch was difficult due to there being babies and the adult birds not taking to it well at first. Ideally I could have just let the birds get real hungry and it would have happened easier. But I had to switch over gradually instead.
> 
> All went well and now the birds eat up the pellets just like grain. Heck, better than grain because with the grain the birds usually picked out what they liked and left those little black things in the feed (forgive my ignorance but I don't know one seed from another).
> 
> I feed the 100% Green pellets to my breeders right now, and 100% of the Gold to my old bird team as they are just being held over for the winter. I will start the mixing when appropriate.
> 
> The pellets were not that much more expensive, but I do have to order it in advance, whereas the grain was available immediately whenever I wanted to stop by and get it.
> 
> I have decided to continue to offer red grit to my birds as they like it and who knows what they will pick up off the ground in the way of seeds anyway. Even though with the pellets it states that grit is not necessary for them. I also occasionally use spanish peanuts as a treat, so grit will probably be necessary for that.
> 
> I also am going to offer seed occasionally, as a treat. To prepare the birds for situations described above, during "hold overs" or whatever.
> 
> So. In a nutshell. If I fail to win any races this coming season, it is your fault Warren. Certainly not mine.
> 
> 
> P.S. I left the canister of pellets open once, and my horse got into it and had a real good time. She loved it. It took all of my weight just to get her off of it (she is a large miniature horse).  I even had my female German Shepherd trying to eat it.
> 
> I know it sounds like I don't feed my animals well. But I do.


Are you still sticking to the pellets ? I have, and so far, I am happy with the results. My YB's are doing some laps around the loft now, so I am feeding them more Gold then Green. I can see the art here, will be to figure out exactly what % they should have of the Green/Gold the 100% Gold is high in fat...about 7% if I remember correctly....if they are not doing some work, and if they are fed too much, I could see where they could get overweight. 

The temptation, as I see it, will be to fiddle with it too much, and start adding things besides the pellets, hoping for an "edge"....right now, I am something around 50/50 and moving towards 25/75 in favor of Gold, as they begin to loft fly more and more.


----------



## Crazy Pete

Are you planing on keeping them on the pellets for the race season?
Dave


----------



## Action

*Useless!*

This is pretty much useless-This, I didn't thing this was a Pellet thread I thought it was Grains,Fuel and Pigeon racing. I see nothing but a debate about pellets. I can say I will never use pellets because no one around here sells the. But would like some feeding info!(Old school feeding) Not a push on pellets.
Jack


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Action said:


> This is pretty much useless-This, I didn't thing this was a Pellet thread I thought it was Grains,Fuel and Pigeon racing. I see nothing but a debate about pellets. I can say I will never use pellets because no one around here sells the. But would like some feeding info!(Old school feeding) Not a push on pellets.
> Jack


Actually, I think the thread was labeled Grains, Fuel, and Pigeon Racing because that was the title of the article that was shared. 

See: http://pigeonracingpigeons.com/2010/01/09/grains-fuel-and-pigeon-racing-introduction/

I am sorry if us new school folks, focused much of our discussion on the optimum nutrition that technology has made available by way of pellets. 

If you would like feeding info and in particular Old School Feeding. Well, I would refer you back to the article. Most commercial pigeon feeds will work just fine. As far as old school, my mentor was a WWII pigeon corps instructor, and he simply fed what local commercial feed was available. 

If you are going to limit yourself to what is only available locally, then I guess it depends then on what local choices you have. Fanciers all over the world, have found success feeding hundreds of slightly different diets. 

If there are some old school fanciers, who are feeding the same way for the last fifty years, and are still winning those Combine events, then by all means, please feel free to share your words of wisdom, which can enhance the information provided in the above mentioned article.


----------



## tnelson1

*Purina Pigeon Checkers*

I from the start have always used Purina Pigeon Checkers. My birds are doing great, but I never knew about the gold & the green, dont' know if I should consider these options.


----------



## Kastle Loft

I'm curious for an update from those of you (Warren and condition freak or others
) who fed pellets thru the yb season? How'd it do for you and did you continue throughout the season? I was thinking about switching before breeding season starts.


----------



## sunshineracinglofts

*new to here*

Hello, all new to the forum, Im not much of a forum guy but foiund this place... anyways i know the last time this was updated was a while back, decided to throw my 2 cents in about feed.

As i am relatively new to pigeon racing (5 yrs), I am not new to endurance athletics, endurance nutrition, and overall athletic performance. I am a nutritionist and an endurance athlete who competes in ultra marathons and extreme endurance events.

To the the gentlemen speaking of the advantages of the pellet. The theory of creating a "super food" by combining all the ingredients that one needs for nutriton, has long been a debate in all endurance nutrtion. Simply put nothing replaces "real" food, when i say real food i mean. the absorbtion rates in any animal will be greater when the protein, carb, or fat is obtained through the source food. although it may say, __% protein, from this source (although most of the time it does not say from)its been cooked, baked, processed. Supplemented food never replace the real thing. If it does not state the source of the supplement, its mostly going to be crude products which typically are the worst products for any animal to eat. I am not questioning your performance or results on the pellets, as you are much more expirenced than I. Just stating from a pure nutritional absorption stance, nothing beats real clean food. 

Those are my 2 cents on food, I recommend all my ultra endurance athletes to get as much nutrtion from real food, especially plant based foods. Sometimes this simply isnt possible though to achieve the amount of nutrition with the size of the workload, therefore I will add in a casein or whey protein drink with Glutamine prior to sleep. 

As for my pigeons I feed them Purina conditioner with green pellets. 5 parts conditioner, to 1 part green pellets. I add the pellets for the same reason I listed above, I wanted to be able to have a bit more protein in the diet.

Thanks you guys have a great forum


----------



## Jamax99

i just bought a bag of beyers champion breeder mix and it had pellets mixed in .


----------



## Lightingbug7825

A guy I know that uses pellets told me that befor a race like two or three weeks befor to put them on grain that way thay git back use to it .I plan on trying that myself this year .


----------



## Mader631

Question, what grains are you guys mixing with your pellets? Barley, corn, or chia???


----------



## BetaPigeon

Hi, I started to feed the green and gold back in 2010 when this was first discussed. I very pleased with my results. I had a bird on the day on a 600 mile federation , flying 1500+ ypm, so I doubt that she went down for water. I have also won some combine races on pallets. 

Mader631, I do add safflower the morning before we countermark.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

BetaPigeon said:


> Hi, I started to feed the green and gold back in 2010 when this was first discussed. I very pleased with my results. I had a bird on the day on a 600 mile federation , flying 1500+ ypm, so I doubt that she went down for water. I have also won some combine races on pallets.
> 
> Mader631, I do add safflower the morning before we countermark.


 According to some experts, that should not be possible. Course now, you and I both know that pellets can work. Just like the rest of the agricultural industry has known for decades. 

Actually, I am of the opinion that there has to be at least a hundred different feed formulas which have worked. Of course, one also needs to have a few good pigeons. I have wondered at times, when fanciers are not getting the results they seek, they almost always seem to want to adjust what they are feeding or what extra "stuff" they can give. When maybe, just maybe, any good commercial feed can work, if one has a few good pigeons. If one does not have any decent pigeons, then all the fiddling with the feeding will never bring about racing success. 

Thank you for sharing. Feeding a good pigeon pellet, of course can work, those that used them know that to be true. Now, as far as what can be used along side these pellets ? Well, just about anything or nothing at all. I don't see any reason to attempt to reinvent the wheel, but it does give a person the feeling they are *doing something*. 

If one has some decent birds, then one can win races with chicken scratch. If your birds are just too over medicated, and too over fed, then I don't know that any feed formula will save the day.


----------



## Kastle Loft

Funny this thread has come alive again now.

After feeding Nutri Blend Green and Gold for 18 months (three race seasons), I've decided to go back to grain. I did get a 500-mile day bird last year, and won a few YB races last fall, but when I looked at the overall situation, I decided to bail.

For one, I found a better source of grain that what I had been using previously (which was buggy and sometimes rotten). 

Another reason, quite honestly, was the price. It was getting really expensive. And I am tired of the "soft" stools. And, the more I research and talk to feed experts, I'm more convinced that the pellets don't offer the same level of nutrition that quality grains can. The heating and processing of the ingredients of the pellets diminishes their nutrition value. I'm sure they've found some science to compensate, as my birds did well on them. But I'm not convinced it is as good for them as quality grain would be.

I also have had some babies that had a reaction to the binder on the pellets and they couldn't digest their food. Their crops became swollen and fluid-filled and they very well could have died had I not separated them and fed them grain. I had to find new homes for these babies. It has happened both breeding seasons I was on pellets. 

Anyway, I'm off the pellet bandwagon. It was a good experiment. I may, however, feed or supplement the green to my breeders during the breeding season next year and keep an eye out for the intolerant babies. We'll see.


----------



## BetaPigeon

When something goes wrong, I always look at what I changed last, and most cases it may be true but not always. For feed advise I ask my vet, not the guy selling feed.

Funny thing is we have feed our dogs, rabbits, pets and our race horse pellets for years and never thought twice about it. Never had any health issues. In fact over the last 15 years of feeding our horses pellets we never had one case of impaction colic. Where when we feed grain, it was a given to get one or two cases a year.

Why are pigeons any different.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

BetaPigeon said:


> When something goes wrong, I always look at what I changed last, and most cases it may be true but not always. For feed advise I ask my vet, not the guy selling feed.
> 
> Funny thing is we have feed our dogs, rabbits, pets and our race horse pellets for years and never thought twice about it. Never had any health issues. In fact over the last 15 years of feeding our horses pellets we never had one case of impaction colic. Where when we feed grain, it was a given to get one or two cases a year.
> 
> Why are pigeons any different.


Number of good points on your post and Kastle Loft. Of course everyone must take local conditions into consideration. Availability, quality, price of local feeds will of course way into which direction a local fancier might go. With all these factors, it is a bit disingenuous to think that everyone should do "X" or "Y" or even "Z". 

Fortunately, I have any number of options, and I am of thinking that any one of them will work. Some folks in different parts of the world don't have the choices that I have right here in south central Pa. Kastle Loft mentioned quality and price as a consideration, and it certainly is. I can spend $8.75 for #50 pounds of chicken scratch, $22 for very high quality European Pur-Grain, $25 and change for Green or Gold, and up to $30 for various commercial mixes depending on outlet. Instead of Gold this YB season, could very well end up with close to 100% grain mixes, just depends on the mood I am in, next time I need some feed. Been leaning towards feeding something less rich then the typical commercial mix, maybe more wheat, barley, corn, etc.


----------



## aarongreen123

i don't know why anyone would ask a vet about nutrition, at least the ones around here all push whatever they get for free from Hill and its quite obviously garbage, on top of the fact that i have had several vets tell me flat out that they are never actually schooled in nutrition during their medical training and that i would be better off talking to a feed expert not a medical expert.


----------



## Skyeking

aarongreen123 said:


> i don't know why anyone would ask a vet about nutrition, at least the ones around here all push whatever they get for free from Hill and its quite obviously garbage, on top of the fact that i have had several vets tell me flat out that they are never actually schooled in nutrition during their medical training and that i would be better off talking to a feed expert not a medical expert.


There are a lot of avian vets who do not know NOTHING about nutrition...there are not many dog vets that do either, but they are out there, looks for those who are into alternative treatment or use holistic approach.


----------



## BetaPigeon

*vet*



aarongreen123 said:


> i don't know why anyone would ask a vet about nutrition, at least the ones around here all push whatever they get for free from Hill and its quite obviously garbage, on top of the fact that i have had several vets tell me flat out that they are never actually schooled in nutrition during their medical training and that i would be better off talking to a feed expert not a medical expert.


Wow.. I would switch Vets'! As stated its true some vets don't know everything there is to know about nutrition. My vet is 79 yrs old and she is sharp as a tack. I asked her about their training or lack of it. She schooled in Imes, IA and had in depth training in nutrition, as most of, if not all healing would require the right nutrition.


----------



## fireman

What is the amount of pellets needed each day for an average homer?


----------



## BetaPigeon

*feed*

Hi Fireman,
I feed the pellets the sameway I did grain, I watch them for about 20 mins, If they start to go for water say after 15 mins, I pull the feed, pour it back in the scoup and figure out how much they ate. After you do this for a while, you will get a good idea how much to feed them. I bought my feed soup at Wal-Mart a number of years ago, it holds 2 pounds. Just a guess , but I am thinking it is about the same as grain, 1 1/2 to 2oz per bird.


----------



## GrayAreaDVM

Veterinarians get very detailed education about basic nutrition. One of the most difficult classes I had was, "Nutrition", being in reality mostly biochemistry. Still, though very complicated, it was not specialized to the point of delving into the leading edge of any one particular species nor was there time to go into any particular activity-related nutritional needs of any particular species. To speak intelligently about feeding racing pigeons requires a point of reference starting question like, "Are you feeding breeders versus birds which are currently racing?" Feeding methods as well as types of feeds are galactically different in those two cases. Knowledge about nutrition, of the type pigeon racers need, is the equivalent of what PhDs receive, research and study when they follow one or two of the many specific threads of the study of nutrition taking many years of graduate school after four years in vet school, continuing at the very leading edge of the limits of human knowledge in whatever specialty they are pursuing. One example: Each activity changes the birds' metabolism, so requiring quantity and quality (quality means type not whether good or spoiled food) changes in feeding which match the changes. The dramatically increased rate of caloric need and use is not satisfied by just feeding more of what say, breeders are fed. This is a classic issue that all athletic performance nutritionists have dealt with and know about. Horse racing, marathon racers, human or pigeon, sprinters, swimmers, dog racers, whether Greyhounds which burst or if running The Iditarod where endurance is required. All nutrition (feeding) managers must know the esoteric principles which are specific to their particular type of activity and of which species they are dealing with, whether man or any one of a hundred animal species. Terms like, "glycogen packing", "red cell packing", and many etc.s, all are very, very long discussions. Few pigeon racers I ever met really understood what it means, "to get in shape", athletically for man or racing pigeon, being different for sprinters compared to endurance athletes. Training techniques, of any type, cannot be discussed without integrating appropriate feeding changes in both quantity and quality, to match each variation in training, and for what one is training, sprints, extreme distance triathlons for humans or pigeons, race track Greyhounds or sled dogs, young birds or old men. Few handlers know how to read their birds' feedback so that adjustments in reps, or frequency and distance of, can be auto-adjusted based on results revealed by the birds themselves. Blindly following, "a program", of training and/or feeding without factoring in how the birds are actually doing, is a common mistake. Waiting for actual race results amounts to feedback that is too late. Relatively useless race results, after the fact, are relied on by fliers without natural talent where it comes to preparation and conditioning. The race is over. Study feedback signals your birds will freely offer you every day if you're watching, before any race and if that is mastered their performance results will rarely surprise you. Some fliers are, "Naturals". They know individual birds, that being at least fifty percent of winning, all factored in and added to training and nutrition regimes, all coming together before races. You know who those fliers are, don't you.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

GrayAreaDVM said:


> Veterinarians get very detailed education about basic nutrition. One of the most difficult classes I had was, "Nutrition", being in reality mostly biochemistry. Still, though very complicated, it was not specialized to the point of delving into the leading edge of any one particular species nor was there time to go into any particular activity-related nutritional needs of any particular species. To speak intelligently about feeding racing pigeons requires a point of reference starting question like, "Are you feeding breeders versus birds which are currently racing?" Feeding methods as well as types of feeds are galactically different in those two cases. Knowledge about nutrition, of the type pigeon racers need, is the equivalent of what PhDs receive, research and study when they follow one or two of the many specific threads of the study of nutrition taking many years of graduate school after four years in vet school, continuing at the very leading edge of the limits of human knowledge in whatever specialty they are pursuing. One example: Each activity changes the birds' metabolism, so requiring quantity and quality (quality means type not whether good or spoiled food) changes in feeding which match the changes. The dramatically increased rate of caloric need and use is not satisfied by just feeding more of what say, breeders are fed. This is a classic issue that all athletic performance nutritionists have dealt with and know about. Horse racing, marathon racers, human or pigeon, sprinters, swimmers, dog racers, whether Greyhounds which burst or if running The Iditarod where endurance is required. All nutrition (feeding) managers must know the esoteric principles which are specific to their particular type of activity and of which species they are dealing with, whether man or any one of a hundred animal species. Terms like, "glycogen packing", "red cell packing", and many etc.s, all are very, very long discussions. Few pigeon racers I ever met really understood what it means, "to get in shape", athletically for man or racing pigeon, being different for sprinters compared to endurance athletes. Training techniques, of any type, cannot be discussed without integrating appropriate feeding changes in both quantity and quality, to match each variation in training, and for what one is training, sprints, extreme distance triathlons for humans or pigeons, race track Greyhounds or sled dogs, young birds or old men. Few handlers know how to read their birds' feedback so that adjustments in reps, or frequency and distance of, can be auto-adjusted based on results revealed by the birds themselves. Blindly following, "a program", of training and/or feeding without factoring in how the birds are actually doing, is a common mistake. Waiting for actual race results amounts to feedback that is too late. Relatively useless race results, after the fact, are relied on by fliers without natural talent where it comes to preparation and conditioning. The race is over. Study feedback signals your birds will freely offer you every day if you're watching, before any race and if that is mastered their performance results will rarely surprise you. Some fliers are, "Naturals". They know individual birds, that being at least fifty percent of winning, all factored in and added to training and nutrition regimes, all coming together before races. You know who those fliers are, don't you.


 Thank you for sharing this. The frustrating thing for me, is many of my old mentors would have said something like, "yes, what you say is just common sense"...and perhaps once upon a time that was true, now apparently a PHd is now required. One could say for instance, "The birds must be fed according to amount of work they have to do"...and I guess if one is old schooled, they understand, if they took enough detailed classes in the subject at school, perhaps they understand, but everyone in between, it has to dished out, according to one's level of understanding. 

One would think for instance, that medical physicians for humans would have studied some elementary basic nutrition. They will talk about balance, and the food pyramid, etc. And then it occurs to me, well heck they simply learned their knowledge from books, and their "knowledge" is only as good as the books. In the case of human nutrition, the books and charts have been historically just plain wrong. So, in that regard, I have little confidence in majority of medical profession outside of their specialty. I know my vets, both animal and avian, are pretty much clueless when it comes to pigeons. Experienced fancier's with a basic college education are best served by doing their own research, much like I have had to do in regards to my own physical health. 

I continue to remain convinced, that feeding will remain as much an art form, as it is a science. The availability, and quality of various types of feeds that can be acquired locally, simply compounds the difficulty of replicating a feeding program as each must be customized for each loft, and in theory, no two birds may have exact same day to day requirements, just like people.


----------



## GrayAreaDVM

*Theoretical versus Applied Nutrition*

Your term, "frustrating", is putting it mildly. Your conclusion that ultimately a feeding program that gets the job done is an art is exactly on the mark, even after all the highfalutin talk about the scientific specifics. Even with a DVM, and then a PhD in The Physiology of Nutrition, that book-learning will put a veterinarian no closer to being able to help a pigeon racer than your average successful old-timer, unless the doctor is asked just the kinds of questions mentioned in this thread. A practical sports physiologist or training specialist-educated person would be more likely to have near-valuable answers. Even then, the feeding of racing pigeons is so specialized the average flyer would have to spend many hours explaining what is required of our birds in order to get any valuable input from the theoretically educated, even from those who have applied nutrition experience. If motivated, that DVM with an athletic and sports training Post Doctorate in say, horse racing metabolic physiology, though could be able to formulate general guidelines to help that specific flyer, applying what is known about horses to pigeons, he would have no reason to if it is not his ‘hobby’. My point is that what others have said in this thread is true, the average veterinarian, though having the tools and education to help, simply cannot, unless racing pigeon training is presented to that theoretician. What the veterinarian’s extreme education does allow is a clue to the pigeon flyer how complicated it is. That's why when asked most animal doctors do not answer simply because there are no simple answers. In college, for example, I took far more math classes than I would ever need. I did OK until I got to, "Applied Deferential Equations". My point here is that after all the theoretical math I had had the classes that followed, where that theoretical math was then used to solve actual real-world problems of the type which confront Engineers, like tension strengths of materials for bridges or practical electrical circuitry for Space Shuttle On-Board Computation of Re-entry Feedback/Response Circuit Boards…all that math, like all that nutrition is analogous to the veterinarians’ theoretical education in nutrition versus the use of those basics in solving an actual practical issue like implementing the theoretical to solve the practical and applied nutritional problems of the very specific area of racing pigeon sports training demands, the birds being the 'space shuttle' in this example. So no, the average theoretically educated veterinarian cannot help the average pigeon racer, unless you get him to sit down and work through your specific needs with you. Have you ever asked the average attorney to figure out how to manage your Estate and expect that he do it because he ‘loves his work’? You have to motivate them to do that. They have the tools, yes, but for your specific needs it requires your and the attorney’s interacting, and you know how much that costs. The average veterinarian simply will not use the expensive education he has without getting paid. Whining about why someone would not donate time and talents to help is naive. It's his job. If you were an iron worker do you think you should build a nice wrought iron gazebo for anyone who just asks? You simply could not afford the huge amount of time and thought that it would take to get anything valuable out of the theoretically educated veterinarian. What I am trying to do here is defend veterinarians for the fact they actually know less, ‘off the top of their heads’ that is, about what any good pigeon racers knows from experience. What any good pigeon racer can do is: realize how much is out there that he could use to refine his already successful feeding program and, though coming at the problem, shall we say through the back door, or being smart ‘off-the-street’ the pigeon racing winner can and should absorb some of the more salient aspects of the known variations in feeding requirements understood by the theoretician. Just one example: Any race track horse trainer knows you cannot feed grass hay during training then switch to molasses covered high octane grains just before a race. Cellular physiology sounds way too difficult to understand, doesn’t it? Not so. The storage of energy and the later supplying of that energy for muscle use by enzyme cell membrane transporters is very easy to understand. “Getting in shape”, means, among other things, that those storage in and then reclaiming portals out are made efficient and increased in number by the continuous demands to do so by what we call training. Come race day, cells that are required to quick release stored sugars must have well ‘taught’ transport tunnels across cell membrane walls and a lot of them. The number of and efficiency of those enzyme systems that get the high demands of racing out of temporary storage from within cells is basically the definition of what conditioning means. Remembering that fat yields exactly twice the amount of calories as does carbohydrate or protein is critical. That discussion requires far more of this already long-winded narration. If feeding safflower or peanuts or flax to add fat to preparation of a 500 mile racer, the pigeon flyer simply must know he cannot, out of the blue, add those high-octane feeds all of a sudden to a complex digestive system that has never seen them before. Never having trained with peanuts, for example, that bird has not built up the appropriate type and number of enzyme systems to handle those additives when/if abruptly introduced. ‘Being required but not in and of itself sufficient’, is a concept the good flyer must stare at. With training, for another example, lactic acid disposal enzyme systems must also be able to handle extreme waste product loads of the type produced by the expected rapid metabolism of glucose. Without that understanding, horses or dogs, for example, will drop dead within a hundred feet of the starting gate, let alone win a race. Again, that is a long discussion that even I would not read after all the above. The winning approach to the feeding of racing pigeons during and in the middle of racing season, in reality, for all practical purposes has nothing to do with ‘nutrition’. The basics of nutrition are extremely easy to get right compared to the correct modifications required to maximize race performance speed and/or endurance. The constancy in quality of whatever is fed is a problem most of us have a hard time getting perfected, let alone approximating the necessary and sufficient modifications later during race season, all different for 80 miles versus 600.


----------



## laughingdog

i just traded for some white racing homers, that have by previous owner (fellow before him was from up north, and sadly passed away now), only been kept up and used for breeding "white dove release" birds to sell. I have had them on what was left of my last bag of: purina nutri blend gold, and am not impressed as they seem to be losing a lot of vigor, as have my performance pigeons. id tried a bag of the nutri blend green and had worse results, except at very first. the calcium in the eggs and vigor of the squeakers seemed to have gone down considerably on this feed, as well as calcium in shells, and feather luster and strength, as well as increased moulting and weak feather shafts. i was told what i was using: layer feed and scratch for chickens, and wild bird seed with caged bird grit, would be detrimental in the long run to my birds longevity, so when moved to this town and had opportunity to try real pigeon food, i jumped and shelled out the money for them. this guy i got mine from, feeds his homers and show birds, layer and scratch same as his chickens, and they seem in better condition than my birds have gotten to now. is it possible my results are due to the fact that the bags may have not been the freshest stored prolonged on a warehouse shelf and only sold to few pigeon racers ect in area as well as dollywood for their trained white ringneck dove shows? or were my results speaking for themselves and maybe the birds would be better off going back to original mixing of according to what they seem to need at different times, rather than just the supposed two types for all needs just tweaking mixes? i do notice that my birds do drink a lot less water with the purina pigeon pellets than they did with the seeds especially, and they make a lot less droppings. they eat a lot more of the pigeon pellets and never seem to be full, and are going light, partly due to them not flying as much but just mostly sit around waiting to be fed more pigeon pellets. could the pigeon pellets do better after a while for racers rather than rollers, and the racers are just needing to adjust? they do seem to be getting lighter but more stream lined, but losing hard muscle mass, but also making more and larger smellier droppings more and more, and acting starving like my performing birds have on the pigeon pellets. what would the long term effects that id have to watch out for from to much protien in layer pellets, or how to counter and balance them, if still preffering them after a while, over whats offered locally for pigeon pellets and specific grains to feed pigeons?


----------



## fishbone

hey guys,
i clicked on the link in the first post, and all i get are 'sponsored links'.
i don't see any article.
could someone please help, thx.


----------



## John_D

fishbone said:


> hey guys,
> i clicked on the link in the first post, and all i get are 'sponsored links'.
> i don't see any article.
> could someone please help, thx.


Possibly the site the original poster was linking to is not up any more. The post is over four years old.


----------



## fishbone

thx!
i didn't see the post was that old. since it was a 'sticky' , i asumed it was still good....



John_D said:


> Possibly the site the original poster was linking to is not up any more. The post is over four years old.


----------

