# advise me on shipping birds



## pigeonslover (Mar 27, 2009)

Hello everyone,
This is my first year and i am having problem choosing birds to send to the race. I need you advices on deciding who will go and who will stay. I have 15 birds team but i can only ship 12. My YB team with 3 birds 5 months old the rest is about 4 months old. My first race is 150 miles.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*shipping*

If it was me, I would ask Tom Brasher. He is the guy running the PT flapdoodle race, seems to me he could give you good advice if he has time to answer your PM, Just a thought. >Kevin


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Pigeonlover---We can not tell you how to pick a bird for a Race- 
That is something that has to be shown you-- what to look for.
Get a club member to show you.
2 "clear"eyes-2 full wings- 2 "clean" feet- no scale on the Breast-Is the Breast Hard? Soft? Blood bubble in the kwel?
AND the list goes on & on.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Do a single toss @ 60 mi turn the birds out 15 to 20 min apart. Keep track of the order you let them out have some one at home to keep track of the order they come home. That should give you your answer. Or split them in 2 teams so they wont have to fly every week.
Dave


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

Records, records, and records!!! FInd out who's your best birds and the background it came from. If not then you let the basket pick your best birds. When it comes to it everyone rely on the basket to see which one is their best bird.


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## Char-B Loft (Dec 28, 2008)

sky tx said:


> Pigeonlover---We can not tell you how to pick a bird for a Race-
> That is something that has to be shown you-- what to look for.
> Get a club member to show you.
> 2 "clear"eyes-2 full wings- 2 "clean" feet- no scale on the Breast-Is the Breast Hard? Soft? Blood bubble in the kwel?
> AND the list goes on & on.


You are correct! A person needs to handle the bird before deciding rather or not to ship to a race and a talent for this comes with experience...


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*shipping*

I was thinking along the lines of AGE and molting. Even though a bird may be the first to the loft now, when will he molt and at what age is good to send a bird that may not race say for 1-2-3 weeks?


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

O-Boy----------
Age? 4-5 month old bird is good for a 300 mile race with proper training.
Moult? Maybe you need to use the " LIGHT "system? Or Pull 9-10th flight? Here in Texas I pull those flights July 4--they are ready for Sept. Races.
Petterson--you have opened a Can of worms. Too many Questions--NOT enough answers.
Visit other Pigeon flyers--go to pigeon get-to-gethers--Lurk and Listen-make notes.
I do not mind telling other flyers what I do--BUT when they start Questioning me as WHY/Etc--I Clam -Up. Its not my JOB to Prove Anything to anyone.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Pigeonslover....Here`s what a OLD timer told me when I started many years go....
Check every bird in the morning,before you put them in the basket,for training...Here`s what to look for....A pigeon has 10 primary flights...The last one out on the wing is #10,the 2nd one in is #9 etc...Look to see what flight the bird is moulting...If it`s #5,it stays home...The #5 is on the elbow,and it could be hurting the bird a little when racing....Your birds at this time in August should be on the 7th or 8th flight..Depending on their age...Or even the 6th if they are younger....The main thing,if you are new to this hobby,IS to find the best 10 to 12 birds,in the best flight condition,and body moult condition...If only 8 birds of yours look good,just send the 8 birds...I will give you what to look for on the body moult...If a bird is missing alot of feathers around it`s ears,it stays home...In general,alot of feathers in the head area missing,keep it home...With the wing,the best way I can tell you what to look for is,just like a race car..All the tires must have the same air pressure,and be of the correct pounds...say 32 as on my tires,on my car....If your pigeon is in your hand right now,and let`s say the 7th flight is just starting to BUD,leave it home..If the 7th flight is half way out,it can race !!...The pigeon with a FULL wing,is the best....So what you are looking for is a bird with a full wing...You might have none,but that`s OK...Just find the BEST ones to ship...As you get experienced with the birds,you will have to learn other points to look for,just like the other members here have said....So,at the present time,learn as much as you can about the birds flights,and body moult...Also,when the bird is in your hands,if feels real heavy,it will not give you a good result on race day...You can ship it,but it will not be one of your first birds home..You will have to do the moult stuff 1st..After you have 10 or so that can race,you could pick out a bird which is to heavy,or to light,and keep them home...You will have to learn the correct weight for your birds..Remember that SMALL pigeons will not hardly weigh as much as a LARGE bird...Alot of these issues,just like the guys said above,will have to be shown to you IN PERSON,by a flyer who`s been flying for a few years..It`s not hard to learn,especially when you have a mentor !! Good Luck...Alamo


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Molt*

ALAMO, I am not going to QT your post because I already read it twice. Very nicly put and I do believe that is what he was looking for in an answer among others. I am also going to take your words as VRY good advice and thank you for posting. >Kevin


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

pigeonslover said:


> Hello everyone,
> This is my first year and i am having problem choosing birds to send to the race. I need you advices on deciding who will go and who will stay. I have 15 birds team but i can only ship 12. My YB team with 3 birds 5 months old the rest is about 4 months old. My first race is 150 miles.


How far have you train your birds and when is your first race? If you didn't pull the 9th and 10th flight you going to have the keep your birds and wait for the 2nd 150 race. You of all people are the only one who can tell which bird need to be put on the race, you need to think like a coach, and decide which player is ready for the game look, feel and listen to your birds, then decide it would have also help if you keep track of their training tosses and figure out who is more consistent, but some birds do good on shorter race and some birds are good in the long distance so no one can really tell you who is ready unless you ask someone to hold your birds and for that they can only tell you the physical aspect of the birds and not their characteristic, so at the end it all relies on the birds and the basket.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

soymi69 said:


> If you didn't pull the 9th and 10th flight you going to have the keep your birds and wait for the 2nd 150 race.


Why would they have to skip the first race if they haven't pulled the last 2 tips? I've never pulled tips on my birds and I've been winning races for the last 13 years. I know a good number of ppl do it but it isn't a must. The first time I topped the combine the 2 birds I got on the drop that race were nestmates and both had their 9th tips 3/4's of the way out and had dropped their 10th tips and some how they out flew the other 2000 birds in the combine by over 3 mins. I actually lost over 2 1/2 mins getting the second bird in and she still easily got the 2nd position.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

pattersonk2002 said:


> If it was me, I would ask Tom Brasher. He is the guy running the PT flapdoodle race, seems to me he could give you good advice if he has time to answer your PM, Just a thought. >Kevin


Kevin I don't know if my advice is any good but I figure since you called me out I would get two cents in. 

I like concrete information rather then theories. I helped basket a 500-bird one-loft race last fall. What would happen was the owner of the one loft race would take a bird out of the crate read the number hand it to me or one of a few other guys. We would take the bird to the owner if he were there to handle it. It was very interesting to see all the theories guys have: looking at the eye sign, feeling the feet for warmth, pulling the beak, feeling how deep or not deep the keel is, looking at the wing, seeing if the 9th or 10th is growing out, the color of the breast, by bouncing the bird up and down judging the weight, looking at the throat, looking at the transparency of the tongue. Like sky tx says, “the list goes on and on”. This pigeon game is for fun, some people get a lot of enjoyment out of these theories and trying to pick the best bird. I get my enjoyment out of taking care of the birds and enjoy the competition of racing. Is there any proof that any of these theories work or really mean anything? I am sure some of them do and some are just that, theories. I think each person needs to make that decision on his own. 

To answer your question, If you basket your first race tonight I would read Alamo’s post a few times and then go take a look at your birds. Great stuff in his post… 

I like having some sort of data to back it up my basket decision. If your race was next week I kind of like Crazy Pete’s post with what soymi69 said, keep great records. I do not have time to single toss my birds but see the value in doing it. What I do to pick the birds for the first race is the week or so before the first race I train with other flyers and then keep track of the order the birds trap. I prefer at least two tosses more then 70 miles. On the course they fly, that gets them over the pass. I record the trapping order the birds come in over two or three tosses (preferably with other lofts) and can quickly figure out which birds are ready that week. This year I can send 40 birds each week, 20 per race and only have 38 eligible birds. I do not have to pick which birds to send. I send every bird each week unless they are in a real bad head molt. Here is the spreadsheet I am using this year. If I were going to select 10 out of the 38 birds to race, I would just take the top ten birds on the sheet. Once you bring up the link you need to click the bottom tab "sheet2" to see what I am talking about.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhvvsnG-54p4dG9wTlQ2alA4ay0zR0t4N2YzaTZZenc&hl=en#gid=1

I only have two tosses on the sheet one of them is very short but you get the idea. I sorted it based on the combine trapping time of the two tosses. The number is not that important, more the order the birds are in is what I look at. The birds ready to race changes week to week. I keep the data on the race the previous week as well as training toss that week to make a decision who should race on the upcoming weekend. 

There is a free spreadsheet from pigonebasics website. They call it “Best Birds Calculator”. You could use to keep track of your best birds. You list all your birds on the left had side and then list the order they trap from several tosses. It is designed to pick your best bird over a series of races, but could also be used to pick your best birds over a series of training tosses. After the races start, I would use the results from the previous races as well as a longer training toss that week to pick my best birds. 

http://www.pigeonbasics.org/articles/bestbirds.php 

Hope all goes well for your first race.


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Why would they have to skip the first race if they haven't pulled the last 2 tips? I've never pulled tips on my birds and I've been winning races for the last 13 years. I know a good number of ppl do it but it isn't a must. The first time I topped the combine the 2 birds I got on the drop that race were nestmates and both had their 9th tips 3/4's of the way out and had dropped their 10th tips and some how they out flew the other 2000 birds in the combine by over 3 mins. I actually lost over 2 1/2 mins getting the second bird in and she still easily got the 2nd position.


So is that what you will tell a new comer? How many birds do you enter in your race, he is only entering 12, so if you really tell him that go ahead and ship your birds even if the 9th and 10th are just coming out what will happen to all his birds, only reason I told him to keep his birds til the next 150 race if the 9th and 10th is coming out so that he doesn't get disappointed if he do end up losing all his birds. I will also enter birds with 3/4 flights out but I breed 30 to 50 young birds a year I also save some for the old bird race birds specially the late hatches. So lets try to direct the new comers the right way and not the way we do it. If he said his got 30 something birds then I wouldn't even mention the 9th and 10th and I think he even ask that's why I mention it.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

sounds like sound advice by all. Health, wing,molt, records, are they in shape. I agree that if the birds are not ready do not send them. In ABQ my birds go every weak. If you look at the records their is usually a week where they fall off. With good selection, that might be the week they sit out. This could make them stronger for the next race. 13 birds in not a big team. It should be easy to assess them. When you have high points bird contests, they need to fly most if not all races. High points bird or champion birds need to see the race stations. Sitting out one race may make the difference. My second high points bird last yb season was leading up until the last race. He was in a heavy head molt, but sent anyway. Finished in the middle of the pack with no points. In retrospect it would not have mattered if he was left home, but you never know. The winner was 3rd the last race got 46 points and only beat my bird by 10 points. I would also suspect that he raced the whole season somewhere in the molt. Good birds are good birds and should make it home in most of your shorter races anywhere in the molt. Does not mean they will win though.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

soymi69 said:


> So is that what you will tell a new comer? How many birds do you enter in your race, he is only entering 12, so if you really tell him that go ahead and ship your birds even if the 9th and 10th are just coming out what will happen to all his birds, only reason I told him to keep his birds til the next 150 race if the 9th and 10th is coming out so that he doesn't get disappointed if he do end up losing all his birds. I will also enter birds with 3/4 flights out but I breed 30 to 50 young birds a year I also save some for the old bird race birds specially the late hatches. So lets try to direct the new comers the right way and not the way we do it. If he said his got 30 something birds then I wouldn't even mention the 9th and 10th and I think he even ask that's why I mention it.


 I didn't tell him to ship birds like that I was trying to prove that the birds don't need to have their 9th and 10th tips pulled to be raced like you said. Maybe thats not what you ment and you ment not to ship them if they were coming out. But they can still race good missing those tips like in my example. As for that race I topped the combine with those birds I only had 11 birds and I shipped 8 of them to that race and was 1st, 2nd, 11th, and 20th. The other 6 birds I put in that race had a full 10 tips as they had finished their molt. The reason I put those 2 birds in with such messed up tips is because they were doing so good in training I couldn't leave them home. And good thing I didn't. But if the birds aren't doing good in training and their missing tips leave them home but if they are missing tips and they are coming good in training the missing tip must not be bothering them. 

As for any other advice I really don't have anything better to add then what's already been said.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Pigeonslover:There are many,many,many different ways to race young birds...But for a NEW pigeon flyer,keeping it simple is the way to go...There is the Light & Dark systems to fly YB`s...Some guys pull the 9th & 10 Flights..There are some who pull tail feathers..etc etc etc..What I told you above is the NATURAL system...You let the birds moult,live as close to NATURE,as nature intended...That means you do not use any system,that MAN has adopted to race the birds..NO pulling flights etc...After 2 or 3 seasons,and you have learned many new and interesting ways to get more out of your birds,you can try a man made system,if you wish...Right now,just keep the birds in VG condition,by training them down the road..Don`t OVERWORK them...Give them a bath once or twice a week...Vitamins or Electrolytes once a week is VG...Keep it simple,and you will have fun flying them...Good Luck...Alamo


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

For any race the most important thing is respiratory evaluation. Check your bird first for white wattles and stand in the dark the night before basketing and listen to the birds. Any bird that sneezes or wheezes frequently needs to be recorded as "unfit to race". A soiled wattle indicates respiratory problems. A bird with good respiratory should be able to complete the short races even with other things mentioned as "not optimal". After you determine their respiratory health is good you can then check the wing, breast, feet and throat. A bird does not have to have all flights in to complete a short race in my opinion, however, do not expect it to win. There have been very good suggestions here and the best one I think is ---find a mentor or someone to show you how to handle and "read" your birds. Good luck this year.
Ken


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

soymi69 said:


> So is that what you will tell a new comer? How many birds do you enter in your race, he is only entering 12, so if you really tell him that go ahead and ship your birds even if the 9th and 10th are just coming out what will happen to all his birds, only reason I told him to keep his birds til the next 150 race if the 9th and 10th is coming out so that he doesn't get disappointed if he do end up losing all his birds. I will also enter birds with 3/4 flights out but I breed 30 to 50 young birds a year I also save some for the old bird race birds specially the late hatches. So lets try to direct the new comers the right way and not the way we do it. If he said his got 30 something birds then I wouldn't even mention the 9th and 10th and I think he even ask that's why I mention it.


At least someone tell him how it's done - pulling flights! So as not to hurt the birds!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Pulling the 9th and 10th flights.....#1....IT's TOO LATE to do it NOW...This should have been done months ago...But if you want to do it next year,here is a very easy way to go at it...When you put the babies in their section at 28 to 30 days old,cut about 3/4 of an inch off the tips of the 9th & 10th flights....When the baby DROPS/SHEDS it's 2nd flight,PULL the 9th flight...When the 9th grows OUT all the way..PULL the 10th flights...Keep a good written record of ALL your babies,so that you don't miss a couple of birds in this process....The reason,you wait untill the 2nd flight drops,is that there is plenty of time for the 9th & 10th to dry up the blood in the quill...In this way,IT IS PAINLESS for the birds !!.....If anyone here does not agree with this method,CALL Joe Zack,from the Central Jersey Combine..This IS his method...And he is one of the best TOP 5 YB lofts in the USA....3,000 to 4,000 birds per race,with close to 300 lofts....Remember,it`s to late for this year....Alamo


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