# african black eagles



## pigeonraiser

Anyone know much about this breed.thanks terry


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## mike495

i would like to know more about them also.


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## dennis kuhn

The Black eagle strain was created by Mannie Maritz of South Africa in 1973. They were a culmination of various strains that he had imported all over the world including Pepperman, Catrysse, DeVreindt, fabry, Delbar, Goosen, Van Brauene, Busschaert, Ameel, Vanhee, DeSmet Matthys, Krauth, Stassart, Sion, Husken VanRiel, Gurnay, Janssen, and so on to name a few. He imported around 2,000 pigeons to develop his Black Eagle family, and raced them 100-1,000 miles. The standard he had for the strain was to be pure black, pear shaped body, small-medium built, the ninth primary to be 1 1/4 inches shorter than the tail, a 5/8 inch step in wing with a 26.5 to 27.5 inch wing span. Mannie passed away in the fall of 1989. Mannie was an accomplished racer with hundreds of race wins when he lived in London before moving to South Africa with his job. The information I have above I got from some of the literature I have on the strain, as they helped develop my Black Knight family I have today.
Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664
http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com
http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


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## pigeonraiser

Mr.kuhn I thanyou for your time and expertise on these black eagle pigeons.thanks terry


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## winchester loft

I am new to the forum and saw some interest in the Black Eagles. Mr. Kuhn was pretty accurate with his assesment about their genesis. Frank Kita was a friend of mine who was Manny Maritz American Distributor. I did get a chance many years ago to actually talk to Manny's widow although communication was a challenge. For a time at the end Frank Kita was selling all of the Black Eagles to Japan flyers. I wrote a feature story about these amazing birds when I had a very brief tenure as Editor of the Racing Pigeon News. That was quite another story. Anyway I got a call from Frank Kita years ago and he said do you still want those Black Eagles. I of course said yes and he said come and get them. I went to Dunkirk and emptied his loft of them including all of the foundation Black Eagles that he had left. I have as far as I know the only pure strain left and a sizeable loft full. I made a promise to mrs. Maritz that I would keep them intact. I have stayed true to this promise and would love to share info and stories.


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## heeler

pictures please, lots and lots of pics.........thx


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## Jass SamOplay

Hi wincester loft,,,I'm dying to see pics. Showing their pear shaped body and a pic or two of their wings span when spread.
Pics pics pics pls pls pls


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## winchester loft

I will gather up some pics and post them after the holiday. Understand that I am not holding my Black Eagles to the same standard as Manny Maritz with regard to confirmation. One unique trait is that they appear to stand on their tail. Not as profoundly as a pouters but sort of that stance. I have copies of the orignal Racing Pigeon News magazine I wrote featuring the birds and I will try and scan some info from that and post it. It is interesting that Manny used champion black pigeons from all over the world to develop the strain. But they had to be champions. When he first started training them he flew them accross the Sarenghetti and for the first several years didn't get any of them back. It literally took years before he was getting enough returns to breed them back in. You can imagine young birds flying 500 or more miles under some of the toughest conditions imaginable.


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## Jass SamOplay

Wow! That's dedicated work and I'm happy that paid off.
Waitin' for info and pics.


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## winchester loft

*African Black Eagles*

Here are a few of my Black Eagle pictures. I wanted to show a few variations that often occur. In the one picture you will see a white spot on the back of the bird. Not many of the birds I have carry this trait, but it was accepted by maritz as long as it was not large. Also notice how the birds sit almost as if they were resting on their tail. Notice also in the one picture you will see pronounced feathers on one of the birds feet. This comes from the Krauth strain. Maritz had one bird that he called feather legs that was an unstoppable champion. The other pic shows a spread wing. It is important to notice the pronounced step in the primaries. I will share mor pics if there is any interest.


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## Jass SamOplay

Oh...! The birds are phenomenal. They have killer looks. The bird in third pic with red band is amazing.
Thanks for the pics and details too.
We would love to see more of them if you're comfortable.

The flights in the spread wing are still growing..is that wing of a young bird? The greyish colored tips might add to the beauty when in flight


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## winchester loft

The bird with the spread wing was just finished with its moult and the feathers were still growing. I wanted to show some of the variations in interesting patterns you get on some rare occassion. That strange barring you see ocurrs in about 1 in 100 birds. The bird on the rest of the body is very black. Everything else is characteristically Black Eagle. Maritz claimed that he bred some of his Blacks to champion red checks and they threw waxy black pigeons. I will take his historical record for granted on this.


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## almondman

Beautiful birds!


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## Jass SamOplay

winchester loft said:


> The bird with the spread wing was just finished with its moult and the feathers were still growing. I wanted to show some of the variations in interesting patterns you get on some rare occassion. That strange barring you see ocurrs in about 1 in 100 birds. The bird on the rest of the body is very black. Everything else is characteristically Black Eagle. Maritz claimed that he bred some of his Blacks to champion red checks and they threw waxy black pigeons. I will take his historical record for granted on this.


Wow! So he's one in hundred birds!
Waxy sounds interesting.
Actually I'm nuts for self colors like pure whites,rec reds,jet blacks.
So I just love these black eagles.


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## winchester loft

Jass SamOplay said:


> Wow! So he's one in hundred birds!
> Waxy sounds interesting.
> Actually I'm nuts for self colors like pure whites,rec reds,jet blacks.
> So I just love these black eagles.


Maritz was very picky about consistency. I was told by Frank Kita that any bird that did not pass his check list was destroyed. I am not quite that demanding. Every once in awhile I will get a recessive solid charcoal color and the birds are beautiful. They also seem to be a slightly heavier frame. I will send a picture of one in a few days. I use to raise Stassarts years ago and the body of these charcoal black eagle kinda feels like a stassart. They still have that characteristic look of the rest of the Black Eagles as you will be able to tell from the pics that I send. Genetics is a wonderful thing to study and if you are trying to keep your family together you have to watch what you are doing.


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## Jass SamOplay

Genetics indeed is a wonderful science. So much things one can do with birds. I'll be waiting for pics. Thanks for your time and support


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## pigeonraiser

Winchester loft, I thank you sir for the pics you posted and all the background info about this breed of birds.i hope to see more posts from you and mr.kuhn.thanks again terry


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## winchester loft

pigeonraiser said:


> Winchester loft, I thank you sir for the pics you posted and all the background info about this breed of birds.i hope to see more posts from you and mr.kuhn.thanks again terry


I am always willing to share information about these amazing birds. Dr.John Kazmierzak (I am sure I butcherd his name) was a dear friend of Frank Kita in the early days. He probably has a wealth of history about these birds as well. Dr.John Lived close to Frank Kita as a boy and became interested in racing pigeons. Dr. John flew some incredible Janssens and shared many success stories with Mr Kita. We need to remember all of these wonderful senior flyers who paid their dues for the new guys.


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## winchester loft

shorty2 said:


> Those are some good looking birds!
> 
> What kind of racing have you been doing with them and what kind of results are you getting ?
> How far out have you been able to get returns from?


I have not raced at all in the last three years because of business schedules, and extensive travel committments. I have a fair share of diplomas when I was racing. several first and seconds and a third place futurity win. I do keep them sharp by training them usually fifty miles or so. It is not really about me at this point it has been about keeping the legacy going. I will eventually like to provide birds to some one in a partnering arrangement to fly birds. Hopefully it will be some one with a good track record. I flew mostly young birds and had a lot of 400 mile day birds. I did get a bird back that I sent to Texas once. The guy wanted the bird for breeding to one of his van riel hens. It flew out over his head and I got it back 3 weeks later. I got greedy with it after that performance and would not send it back LOL. It was close to a thousand miles I figured.


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## pigeonraiser

Wow!love this texas story.ive heard these black birds were tough and could go long distance.thankyou for the post.


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## winchester loft

shorty2 said:


> Now that is very exciting! Is there a chance you could elaborate more about this bird that made the 1000 mile flight -- how old was it, what kind of training and race experience did it have?
> 
> What is your zip code (or city) and the zip code (or city) of the Texas area where you sent the bird? I'll punch it into a map website and figure the airline.


Wow you are really taxing my memory the zip was 75504 from 45385. There was nothing special about its race record. it did a 4th and 7th as a young bird. It flew only as a young bird and it was three years old when I sent it. I know that airline miles is alot shorter trip back then its trip going.


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## winchester loft

shorty2 said:


> > Wow you are really taxing my memory the zip was 75504 from 45385.
> 
> I put the zip codes into MapDevelopers and they say the airline is 720 miles. That is a great flight!
> 
> > There was nothing special about its race record. it did a 4th and 7th
> > as a young bird. It flew only as a young bird and it was three years
> > old when I sent it.
> 
> Is there a chance I could twist your arm a little bit more to dig up it's race records? The speed isn't important, I am very curious about how many races it flew and from what direction.
> 
> There are a bunch of us that are trying to do exactly what you did by accident, ship birds through the mail to be released on the other end and have them return. Thing is, most of us are not affiliated with a local club so we are looking for ways to train our birds in an efficient manner. Also trying to determine if we have to train along the final airline destination or if birds are capable of returning from any direction. So to us, that escaped bird is super exciting!
> 
> I take it that your loft is just outside of Dayton OH, do you recall what stations it it flew from?


I will try to be as accurate as I can. I looked at the address of the letter the Texas guy sent and he picked the bird up at that postal exchange. His home was somewhat west of there but it would not be appropriate to give up his address. Anyway we never flew west and I never trained in that direction. We always flew south. Young birds would be liberated as far south as Sweetwater Tn. That was close to 400 miles for some of the flyers. We did not stray far from the I-75 coridor and we had around 8 liberation points. Some super races went down to Georgia. I always trained on a straight line following after the advice of a few old flyers. There were some guys training in a circle and there was one father and son team that were really competitive flyers doing this. I admit that my busy schedule made me an average flyer with really good birds. If my equation is correct an average flyer with incredible birds still make average results. I am close to giving up real work to spend more time with the birds. I believe that Dr. John Kazmierzak who I admire as one of Americas premier flyers had it right. Train in the direction that you are going to race. Some where I have a pile of race results form 03 and on. I will try and dig that out. I want to say however that I don't want to stray far from sharing information regarding the Black Eagles. They are the real reason I jumped in here.


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## winchester loft

shorty2 said:


> > I always trained on a straight line following after the advice of a few
> > old flyers.
> 
> For conventional racing, this is the preferred method because it trains the birds to ignore their other navigational cues and fly a compass course to get back home. The positive thing is when the birds are released, they will pickup their compass course and fly straight in that direction. The quicker they do that, the more time is shaved off the flight and when you are trying to beat the next guy by 30 seconds, training them to compass fly can really help.
> 
> The down side is selection single direction flying is degrading their homing ability. If you read about the old timers, they had birds that returned from everywhere and rarely got lost. The birds we have today are very fast, but seem to get lost easily.
> 
> 
> > Some where I have a pile of race results form 03 and on. I will try
> > and dig that out.
> 
> I would very much appreciate any extra data you can dig up on this bird.
> 
> > we never flew west and I never trained in that direction. We always
> > flew south. Young birds would be liberated as far south as Sweetwater Tn.
> 
> Sweetwater TN is 283 mile airline to your loft. If that was the furthest you flew it, that is incredible it made it back from the Texas. I drew it out on a map to put it into perspective. Now THAT is an awesome bird !!
> 
> > I am close to giving up real work to spend more time with the birds.
> 
> Please consider coming to fly with us POPR guys. You don't need a clock, it is super cheap to participate. We are trying to fly the distances like they used to in the old days and we are working in a collaborative effort to help each other achieve this.


I get your point I believe my loft was 391 but we had a couple of flyers driving 60 miles to the club house further north. So I was not too far off in my guess. I really need to work a lot harder with the birds to maximize their potential. The handicap is me not them. Maritz actually developed two tyoes of Black Eagles one for speed and then one for distance. I have all of Frank Kita's race results spanning years of data on these birds. I believe some day I will run copies of this stuff and send the originals to Gene Yoes who I know would love to have them. When Frank grew to old to keep his loft he sent me a ton of data that he received from Maritz. It is really to valuable for me to sit on.


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## winchester loft

winchester loft said:


> I get your point I believe my loft was 391 but we had a couple of flyers driving 60 miles to the club house further north. So I was not too far off in my guess. I really need to work a lot harder with the birds to maximize their potential. The handicap is me not them. Maritz actually developed two tyoes of Black Eagles one for speed and then one for distance. I have all of Frank Kita's race results spanning years of data on these birds. I believe some day I will run copies of this stuff and send the originals to Gene Yoes who I know would love to have them. When Frank grew to old to keep his loft he sent me a ton of data that he received from Maritz. It is really to valuable for me to sit on.


I meant 291 not 391


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## pigeonraiser

Hope to keep this thread going!!!thanks very interesting.


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## Jr Brown

I have been fascinated with this entire thread.
Almost 3 years ago, which was shortly after I got started with racing pigeons, I bought a pair of Black Pigeons from a flyer in East Brunswick NJ. I bought them just because I wanted some black pigeons. He called them Black Eagles. I thought it was just a nickname he made up. They were not paired when I got them. I did not know much about pigeons then and had not vaccinated for anything. I was getting birds from anyone I could. I soon had sick and dying birds that were diagnosed with PMV. I lost 70 % (35)of my birds including the Black Eagles.
So my questions really are about the strain or strains.
Is a Black Eagle different from the African Black Eagle?
Are they related to the Black Diamonds?
Other than Winchester loft can anyone say they have African Black Eagles?
Are they rare or do a lot of flyers still have some?
Thanks to you all that have been participating in this thread.


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## re lee

Jr Brown said:


> I have been fascinated with this entire thread.
> Almost 3 years ago, which was shortly after I got started with racing pigeons, I bought a pair of Black Pigeons from a flyer in East Brunswick NJ. I bought them just because I wanted some black pigeons. He called them Black Eagles. I thought it was just a nickname he made up. They were not paired when I got them. I did not know much about pigeons then and had not vaccinated for anything. I was getting birds from anyone I could. I soon had sick and dying birds that were diagnosed with PMV. I lost 70 % (35)of my birds including the Black Eagles.
> So my questions really are about the strain or strains.
> Is a Black Eagle different from the African Black Eagle?
> Are they related to the Black Diamonds?
> Other than Winchester loft can anyone say they have African Black Eagles?
> Are they rare or do a lot of flyers still have some?
> Thanks to you all that have been participating in this thread.


African black eagles Are the Same. They really are no better then other strains. It boils down to the bird. When ever having or finding a good one. They were getting popular back in the end of the 1970s and early 1980s. Then faded to few lofts keeping them. I had several pairs myself Back then. But as said any line of birds you have to select train and race them to get an idea how to breed them.Any today would be far removed from the birds in the past. And as said much less people have them. Fads come and go in race birds all the time


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## winchester loft

Jr Brown said:


> I have been fascinated with this entire thread.
> Almost 3 years ago, which was shortly after I got started with racing pigeons, I bought a pair of Black Pigeons from a flyer in East Brunswick NJ. I bought them just because I wanted some black pigeons. He called them Black Eagles. I thought it was just a nickname he made up. They were not paired when I got them. I did not know much about pigeons then and had not vaccinated for anything. I was getting birds from anyone I could. I soon had sick and dying birds that were diagnosed with PMV. I lost 70 % (35)of my birds including the Black Eagles.
> So my questions really are about the strain or strains.
> Is a Black Eagle different from the African Black Eagle?
> Are they related to the Black Diamonds?
> Other than Winchester loft can anyone say they have African Black Eagles?
> Are they rare or do a lot of flyers still have some?
> Thanks to you all that have been participating in this thread.




I read Re lee's comments about birds and he is right to the extent that there are good birds and not so good birds out of any strain. I would not however characterize Black Eagles as a fad. Maritz spent untold thousands of dollars in addition to a literal lifetime developing the strain. It was decades as Frank Kita once defined it. They were introduced in this country back in the early sixtees from what my records reveal but the were super birds alot further back. What makes any strain become mediocre in my opinion is poor training and indescriminate out crossing. Obviously there are an abundance of other reasons but I try to avoid the two I mentioned. I do believe intact Black Eagles are rare and I certainly don't see an issue of having a blend in your loft as long as you are breeding for performance. I use to have E Lang Millers Janssens and Stassarts. I kept them all separated but it became so much work I now only have Black Eagles. They have neve been outcrossed so your question is are they Afircan Black Eagles and I would have to say yes.


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## re lee

When i talk of a FAD.When birds are getting promoted as great birds. people come running to BUY them. Well well know 1 the birds can only breed so much. And 2 very few are any good at all. But they are bought because they are the New Fad. then many just can not get them to perform. and after a time they fade and another fad comes along. This happens it sees alot with race birds. in THE USA. I am not saying THE BLACK EAGLES WERE NOT ANY GOOD. But When 10 out of a hundred birds Are the really good ones. And 1 out of a thousand is a great one. More or less. People do not relize. there just is not enough to go around. But the fad begins. That is what I am saying.


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## winchester loft

re lee said:


> When i talk of a FAD.When birds are getting promoted as great birds. people come running to BUY them. Well well know 1 the birds can only breed so much. And 2 very few are any good at all. But they are bought because they are the New Fad. then many just can not get them to perform. and after a time they fade and another fad comes along. This happens it sees alot with race birds. in THE USA. I am not saying THE BLACK EAGLES WERE NOT ANY GOOD. But When 10 out of a hundred birds Are the really good ones. And 1 out of a thousand is a great one. More or less. People do not relize. there just is not enough to go around. But the fad begins. That is what I am saying.


Your point is well taken. I wish that every bird that I ever had turned out to be unstoppable champions. It unfortunately does not happen that way. We know that genetically we can have a great starting point and work forward. I cannot say what will ultimately happen to my Black Eagles in the future with regards to race results. I just want to keep them intact and hope that one day they will again prove themselves either in my loft or someone elses. I do get your point about fads. I hope that this is not an impression I am leaving. I really do love this strain realizing the incredible history. I enjoy sharing information with those who are interested. I don't think that I am the world renowned expert all though that would be really cool. It all comes down to hardwork on both sides "the birds and the keepers".


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## re lee

winchester loft said:


> Your point is well taken. I wish that every bird that I ever had turned out to be unstoppable champions. It unfortunately does not happen that way. We know that genetically we can have a great starting point and work forward. I cannot say what will ultimately happen to my Black Eagles in the future with regards to race results. I just want to keep them intact and hope that one day they will again prove themselves either in my loft or someone elses. I do get your point about fads. I hope that this is not an impression I am leaving. I really do love this strain realizing the incredible history. I enjoy sharing information with those who are interested. I don't think that I am the world renowned expert all though that would be really cool. It all comes down to hardwork on both sides "the birds and the keepers".


This is what several breeders will do. try to keep there line of birds straight.. NOW when building a line of birds That is a good start. BUT finding what will cross well with them really helps. As the idea is a use able bird. A line of birds for show type keeping a single family line works very well. Helps weed out the bad faults over time. And can be done for many years in race birds. But at times one should look for the need. And when used right that out cross Is bred down the line where it is asorbed into the old line. Becoming a part of that line. Out crossing just for hope of a winner has no soild purpose. except short term. You can also look at others that have kept there black eagles pure to the line they have and use those bids to bring in new blood but same line. . You can see the idea I say on FAD birds just looking at the newr different import lines that start to get passed around. And every bird just about that gets raised is sold using the REAL birds imppressive pedigree But as yu know many get lost flying around the block. And That is what i am saying. To the word FAD. And yes the people that have the birds are the ones that have to move them forward. That is selection. But Many race people want to WIN NOW. and will buy anything they can maybe win with. and then buy agin and agin.


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## winchester loft

re lee said:


> This is what several breeders will do. try to keep there line of birds straight.. NOW when building a line of birds That is a good start. BUT finding what will cross well with them really helps. As the idea is a use able bird. A line of birds for show type keeping a single family line works very well. Helps weed out the bad faults over time. And can be done for many years in race birds. But at times one should look for the need. And when used right that out cross Is bred down the line where it is asorbed into the old line. Becoming a part of that line. Out crossing just for hope of a winner has no soild purpose. except short term. You can also look at others that have kept there black eagles pure to the line they have and use those bids to bring in new blood but same line. . You can see the idea I say on FAD birds just looking at the newr different import lines that start to get passed around. And every bird just about that gets raised is sold using the REAL birds imppressive pedigree But as yu know many get lost flying around the block. And That is what i am saying. To the word FAD. And yes the poeople that have the birds are the ones that have to move them forward. That is selection. But May race poeople want to WIN NOW. and will buy anything they can maybe win with. and then buy agin and agin.


For sure the proof is always in the pudding. One of the good things about having a straight bloodline to start with is that you dont have to guess what is on the other side. Especially if you are trying to build your own strain. I will keep mine honest in the event that someone wants to use them and be creative with their own winners in a breeding program. I think geneology works pretty good if you don't wish to start from scratch. Anyway you are right about one thing we live in an instant gratification world. I have known alot of really good flyers and they all had one thing in common, Patience.


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## pigeonraiser

Good stuff, was wondering winchester if other than the texas bird if youve ever let any other stock out to any other fliers?hope this isnt to personal.myself and a few friends have some so called black eagles that came from an old breeder in ohio .we dont race but we toss alot out to 50 to 75 miles.could they win a race? Dont know but will say this these birds will come home even beat up by hawks.thats why started this thread to gather all the imfo on this breed I could.i thankyou for all this history know alot more now than I did 2 weeks ago.


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## winchester loft

pigeonraiser said:


> Good stuff, was wondering winchester if other than the texas bird if youve ever let any other stock out to any other fliers?hope this isnt to personal.myself and a few friends have some so called black eagles that came from an old breeder in ohio .we dont race but we toss alot out to 50 to 75 miles.could they win a race? Dont know but will say this these birds will come home even beat up by hawks.thats why started this thread to gather all the imfo on this breed I could.i thankyou for all this history know alot more now than I did 2 weeks ago.


I believe that I am of the mindset to work with some others to keep the BEs going. I thought that being a one man show was a good thing for many years but it is amazing how you can finally come to the conclusion that this might be self defeating. Anyway not sure who else in Ohio has BEs. When I emptied Frank Kita's loft of them many years ago there was sort of a hue and cry from some others. There was one guy from Ohio who found out who I was and I practically had to change my phone number LOL. Never let him have any but he was telling me how rich he would make us. I would love to start a BE club and get a good following. May be thats a little to ambitious, I don't know. We would just have to make sure there was legitmate blood before I share these. I would still like to post some history from the story done many years ago. It also has a list of bullet points of exactly what Maritz wanted physically in the birds.


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## Jr Brown

winchester loft said:


> I believe that I am of the mindset to work with some others to keep the BEs going. I thought that being a one man show was a good thing for many years but it is amazing how you can finally come to the conclusion that this might be self defeating. Anyway not sure who else in Ohio has BEs. When I emptied Frank Kita's loft of them many years ago there was sort of a hue and cry from some others. There was one guy from Ohio who found out who I was and I practically had to change my phone number LOL. Never let him have any but he was telling me how rich he would make us. I would love to start a BE club and get a good following. May be thats a little to ambitious, I don't know. We would just have to make sure there was legitmate blood before I share these. I would still like to post some history from the story done many years ago. It also has a list of bullet points of exactly what Maritz wanted physically in the birds.


Is there a link to the article you wrote years ago about the BE birds?


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## pigeonraiser

Id be interested in reading this also.thanks


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## winchester loft

Jr Brown said:


> Is there a link to the article you wrote years ago about the BE birds?


I am going to scan the article in as well as the front cover of the magazine. Give me a couple of days to do this. I also have about fifty original copies of the early ninetees RPN magazine that I will send folks if you don't mind paying a couple of bucks for shipping. Just send me a private email


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## Jass SamOplay

Mr.Winchester, I'm really looking forward to hear practical results when start to race BEs again. Infact if I were you I would rather take it as challenge. I would train them and bring glory to the name of purebred BEs again. That will be an awesome tribute to Mr.Kita and Mr.Maritz too.
For now if you can't train them,I would advise you to give few of the pure bred BEs pairs to one of your trustworthy friend/family who races so that BEs could be given a chance to prove themselves. Cuz' people believe practical results. And also,don't get me wrong,God forbid if something happens to your loft, the BE original bloodline will be safe and thriving with some other person from where they could be retrieved back.
I myself learned it the hard way. Back in 2009,I lost all my homers to pmv. Since then I have been working my ... hard off but I'm not able to get birds even close to them.

Sincerely


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## winchester loft

Jass SamOplay said:


> Mr.Winchester, I'm really looking forward to hear practical results when start to race BEs again. Infact if I were you I would rather take it as challenge. I would train them and bring glory to the name of purebred BEs again. That will be an awesome tribute to Mr.Kita and Mr.Maritz too.
> For now if you can't train them,I would advise you to give few of the pure bred BEs pairs to one of your trustworthy friend/family who races so that BEs could be given a chance to prove themselves. Cuz' people believe practical results. And also,don't get me wrong,God forbid if something happens to your loft, the BE original bloodline will be safe and thriving with some other person from where they could be retrieved back.
> I myself learned it the hard way. Back in 2009,I lost all my homers to pmv. Since then I have been working my ... hard off but I'm not able to get birds even close to them.
> 
> Sincerely



Your point is well taken. I do everything I can to keep the birds safe and healthy but even with that there are no guarantees. I do a lot of single tossing so they are not just taking up space. This coming race season I will work with a few good flyers and hopefully get them back in form. Again there are no guarantees that they will become champions again, I just think they can because the genetics is still there. As I pointed out before incredible birds and mediocre handlers amounts to mediocre results. I certainly don't have all the answers when it comes to training and race strategy. We have an opportunity because of someone else's hard work to make it happen again, genetics considered of course. I take no credit for what happened in South Africa many years ago. It basically comes down to what was said on one of the other post and that is essentially pigeon fads come and go. It may take some work and imagination to bring these birds back to their hey day but it is worth the effort.


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## pigeonraiser

Well said!!!


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## pigeonraiser

Winchester loft, would still love to see the magazine article you wrote if you could find the time someday.thank you.


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## LeeLu

winchester loft said:


> Maritz was very picky about consistency. I was told by Frank Kita that any bird that did not pass his check list was destroyed. I am not quite that demanding. Every once in awhile I will get a recessive solid charcoal color and the birds are beautiful. They also seem to be a slightly heavier frame. I will send a picture of one in a few days. I use to raise Stassarts years ago and the body of these charcoal black eagle kinda feels like a stassart. They still have that characteristic look of the rest of the Black Eagles as you will be able to tell from the pics that I send. Genetics is a wonderful thing to study and if you are trying to keep your family together you have to watch what you are doing.


Wow, your black eagles are beautiful, their posture looks just like my jannsens, the breeder who sold me the white homers said they there pure breed jannsens, so they are "pear" shaped and look just like your blacks only white, so i have to assume mine are in the line of stassart jannens.... the pic in the avatar as the pear shape stance and looks just like your pear-shaped black eagles in your pics.

would love to help with continuing this breed, and racing...but would love to participate in helping start a "club"...i am in Texas not far from the zip code you sent your black eagle to return to you....i have a friend in Tennessee, we've talked about sending messages by these homers just to see if we can do it....i haven't flown my doves nor trained them to race, but would like to get into racing and learn how to train...and yes, i have the patience!

would you consider selling a pair of your squeaker black eagles? 

thanks for the information and the beautiful pics!


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## Jr Brown

I am still interested in knowing how many lofts have Black Eagles? Does anyone know anyone else who has some? Is their line "pure"? Where did they get theirs?
I am interested in "tracking" the spread of black eagles from the time they were brought to this country (USA) And to get an idea on how many black eagles there are.


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## mike495

i have some south african black eagles also. just had 2 hatch out july 7. ill try to get some pics if i can not too computer savy


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## re lee

Jr Brown said:


> I am still interested in knowing how many lofts have Black Eagles? Does anyone know anyone else who has some? Is their line "pure"? Where did they get theirs?
> I am interested in "tracking" the spread of black eagles from the time they were brought to this country (USA) And to get an idea on how many black eagles there are.


When they became popular Several lofts bought them. And Then in time they faded in poularity. I would think there are plenty still around. BUT lost and not used pedigrees It becomes who knows. There are a few lofts I am sure that still maintain there records. And Many were probably out crossed . So saying and having are two different things. To say yes I have black eagles is one thing To have and show that you do have is another. MOST strain line birds fade into the past as time goes by. And all strain line birds after they leave the original OWNER become base line in a short time. Because they are bred different then the original owner would have selected them. to breed.


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## Jr Brown

mike495 said:


> i have some south african black eagles also. just had 2 hatch out july 7. ill try to get some pics if i can not too computer savy


When and where did you get yours?


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## cire345

i have two pares of Black Eagle got them ‎April ‎25, ‎2014 from Rick i think that was his name he said that he has had Black Eagles for 20 years 
he live in Penrose, Colorado


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## mike495

i got mine from a friend of mine tripple t lofts im not sure where he got them from.


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## LeeLu

dennis kuhn said:


> The Black eagle strain was created by Mannie Maritz of South Africa in 1973. They were a culmination of various strains that he had imported all over the world including Pepperman, Catrysse, DeVreindt, fabry, Delbar, Goosen, Van Brauene, Busschaert, Ameel, Vanhee, DeSmet Matthys, Krauth, Stassart, Sion, Husken VanRiel, Gurnay, Janssen, and so on to name a few. He imported around 2,000 pigeons to develop his Black Eagle family, and raced them 100-1,000 miles. The standard he had for the strain was to be pure black, pear shaped body, small-medium built, the ninth primary to be 1 1/4 inches shorter than the tail, a 5/8 inch step in wing with a 26.5 to 27.5 inch wing span. Mannie passed away in the fall of 1989. Mannie was an accomplished racer with hundreds of race wins when he lived in London before moving to South Africa with his job. The information I have above I got from some of the literature I have on the strain, as they helped develop my Black Knight family I have today.
> Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664
> http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com
> http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


Thanks for the info. checked my jannsens measurements with Maritz standard...my white jannsens, all have "devil eyes," one, my clapper, the ninth primary is 1/14" shorter than the tail, (don't know what you mean by a 5/8" step in the wing); but the wing span is 26.5....this jannsen has a "pear shaped, medium build" body with a strong back..silky smoth feathers....he dominates my small flock, is very possessive and at the moment 2 hens are crazy about him....and is setting on his first clutch, he is 11 months old.

i have not tossed my small flock, because i don't want them to home to where i am so i have no ideal who in my flock is the fastest, i am moving in a week or so, when i get settled, i plan on starting to train to race. the mother of this cock is also built, like my clapper: davy, she flies very smooth and her feathers are very silky, she has a very long wing span, too and a smaller frame than the cock, her other son is also amazing, yesterday, i saw him do something, i've never seen a bird do...with head in the air, tail pointing to the ground; he was about 6 inches away from his mate facing outward, who was standng still. He flew a complete circle around his mate. as if he was standing up next to her, with his back too her body, amazingly fast he completely circled her body, i assume that was a jester of love/happiness....he is also smooth, fast, with a pear shaped body, smaller build than my clapper-davy, and has a long wingspan just like his mother, davy....

so please explain what is meant by a 5/8" step in the wing! anyone know? 

thanks in advance!


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## pigeonraiser

Would love to hear more from winchester loft.thanks


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## mike495

pics


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## pigeonraiser

Nice pics Mike have to get ya to take some for me sometime!


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## winchester loft

LeeLu said:


> Wow, your black eagles are beautiful, their posture looks just like my jannsens, the breeder who sold me the white homers said they there pure breed jannsens, so they are "pear" shaped and look just like your blacks only white, so i have to assume mine are in the line of stassart jannens.... the pic in the avatar as the pear shape stance and looks just like your pear-shaped black eagles in your pics.
> 
> would love to help with continuing this breed, and racing...but would love to participate in helping start a "club"...i am in Texas not far from the zip code you sent your black eagle to return to you....i have a friend in Tennessee, we've talked about sending messages by these homers just to see if we can do it....i haven't flown my doves nor trained them to race, but would like to get into racing and learn how to train...and yes, i have the patience!
> 
> would you consider selling a pair of your squeaker black eagles?
> 
> I am on business travel for another day. Send me a private email and we can talk about squeakers. Sorry for the delay in responding


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## LeeLu

winchester loft said:


> LeeLu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, your black eagles are beautiful, their posture looks just like my jannsens, the breeder who sold me the white homers said they there pure breed jannsens, so they are "pear" shaped and look just like your blacks only white, so i have to assume mine are in the line of stassart jannens.... the pic in the avatar as the pear shape stance and looks just like your pear-shaped black eagles in your pics.
> 
> would love to help with continuing this breed, and racing...but would love to participate in helping start a "club"...i am in Texas not far from the zip code you sent your black eagle to return to you....i have a friend in Tennessee, we've talked about sending messages by these homers just to see if we can do it....i haven't flown my doves nor trained them to race, but would like to get into racing and learn how to train...and yes, i have the patience!
> 
> would you consider selling a pair of your squeaker black eagles?
> 
> I am on business travel for another day. Send me a private email and we can talk about squeakers. Sorry for the delay in responding
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for the response, no problem about the delay, i completely understand...sent you a pm....
Click to expand...


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## winchester loft

Jr Brown said:


> I am still interested in knowing how many lofts have Black Eagles? Does anyone know anyone else who has some? Is their line "pure"? Where did they get theirs?
> I am interested in "tracking" the spread of black eagles from the time they were brought to this country (USA) And to get an idea on how many black eagles there are.



Years ago Frank Kita sent me shipping records of lofts that purchased Black Eagles. I am sure it is not a complete list and who knows where they went from these lofts. I also have a lot of race records from early racing and the names of the lofts. I treat them as private information for obvious reasons. When I can I will also post a few pedigree documents and additional strain info.


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## winchester loft

pigeonraiser said:


> Would love to hear more from winchester loft.thanks


Thank you for your interest in these amazing birds and Winchester Loft. I think it would be incredible to have a web site dedicated to BEs with stories, info and input from all those who have them. I know that the Trenton folks have organized in similar fashion over the years. I would be perfectly willing to share my birds if we could organize a group focused more on strain integrity then making money. I am not opposed to making money mind you but I believe that it is more important long term to keep Mannies dream alive. Actually that is pretty much the promise that I made to his widow and Frank Kita years ago. This is a very competitive sport and I really do get all of that. But there is plenty of time to brag about race results on these birds after we have accomplished our goals.


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## pigeonraiser

Winchester Loft, Thankyou for the reply.Never though this thread would ever get this kind of responce.I think your idea of starting a black eagle web site would be awsome.I know myself and some local friends would love to be a part of this.If anyone else out there has these birds would love to here from you.Thanks again Winchester Loft for all your help and wisdom about this breed.


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## mike495

is there any way to tell how pure off blood line a bird is with out documentation. im very new to raising and flying pigeons. just curious how good of birds i have.i would like to find someone close enough to me that could tell.


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## LeeLu

mike495 said:


> is there any way to tell how pure off blood line a bird is with out documentation. im very new to raising and flying pigeons. just curious how good of birds i have.i would like to find someone close enough to me that could tell.


i guess it's the measurements:

dennis kuhn dennis kuhn is offline
Posted 27th March 2014, 04:36 AM

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 123
The Black eagle strain was created by Mannie Maritz of South Africa in 1973. They were a culmination of various strains that he had imported all over the world including Pepperman, Catrysse, DeVreindt, fabry, Delbar, Goosen, Van Brauene, Busschaert, Ameel, Vanhee, DeSmet Matthys, Krauth, Stassart, Sion, Husken VanRiel, Gurnay, Janssen, and so on to name a few. He imported around 2,000 pigeons to develop his Black Eagle family, and raced them 100-1,000 miles. The standard he had for the strain was to be pure black, pear shaped body, small-medium built, the ninth primary to be 1 1/4 inches shorter than the tail, a 5/8 inch step in wing with a 26.5 to 27.5 inch wing span. Mannie passed away in the fall of 1989. Mannie was an accomplished racer with hundreds of race wins when he lived in London before moving to South Africa with his job. The information I have above I got from some of the literature I have on the strain, as they helped develop my Black Knight family I have today.
Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664
http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com
http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com

******
i didn't get a response from winchester loft; i checked Kuhn's site but no black eagles for sale, ny white jannsens have the measurements Kuhn described, but mine are young---never tossed them.

if your black egales meet these measurements, i'd like to buy a pair of squeakers...to race them against my jannsens---i have no intentions of cross breeding...i will raise/train them separately----just for the fun of it....so let me know what you have in measurements...i am looking for a good strain of black eagles, tku


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## winchester loft

LeeLu said:


> i guess it's the measurements:
> 
> i didn't get a response from winchester loft; i checked Kuhn's site but no black eagles for sale, ny white jannsens have the measurements Kuhn described, but mine are young---never tossed them.
> 
> if your black egales meet these measurements, i'd like to buy a pair of squeakers...to race them against my jannsens---i have no intentions of cross breeding...i will raise/train them separately----just for the fun of it....so let me know what you have in measurements...i am looking for a good strain of black eagles, tku


I was not aware that you tried to contact me. Did you try by private message? Anyway I don't typically let my birds raise young this late and through the moult but I have let a single pair sit eggs. Send me a private email. I am not sure of the measurements that you refer to Mannie did have a list of standards and I will try and post them this week.


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## LeeLu

winchester loft said:


> I was not aware that you tried to contact me. Did you try by private message? Anyway I don't typically let my birds raise young this late and through the moult but I have let a single pair sit eggs. Send me a private email. I am not sure of the measurements that you refer to Mannie did have a list of standards and I will try and post them this week.


yes, i did send you a PM, basically said what i posted above. i was looking for a pair of black eagle (good strain) sqeakers after August/September. i have two pair setting right now, i let my youngest hen, abigail mate with my clapper, davy....all my homers have long wing spans...good balance, etc. My youngest hen, 6 months, Abby's wing span is 26.5"..Davy's a year old, his is almost 27" with both their 9th primary 1-1/4" shorter than their tail feathers....i believe the offspring of these two will be winners...Abby is small build looks more like the straten jannsen, small frame, strong back...while davy is larger/taller with a definite pear shape...she just laid her 1st egg on the 4th...second is due today...i am hoping the eggs are fertile. These two have trouble mating, Abby being so small, she dumps davy too soon, i am guessing he is too heavy for her.

i had no idea you did not receive my pm, it shows sent.. in my sent box...so i will try it again. Thanks for your response!

just submitted a pm to you....let me know if you didn't receive it.


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## pigeonraiser

Lee Lu, Was wondering if its not to personal what part of this fine country do you hail from?thanks.


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## LeeLu

pigeonraiser said:


> Lee Lu, Was wondering if its not to personal what part of this fine country do you hail from?thanks.


pigeonraiser---> i"hail" from the great state of Texas, north central Texas. However, born and raised in God's Country---Ohio...a little country farm town, 90 miles south of Lake Erie, so i am very familiar with your state!


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## pigeonraiser

LeeLu, Thanks for the reply sorry it took so long to get back.So your in the longhorn state .Love it down there in the fall and winter to hot for me though in the summer.Got married in texas when I was 18 and 42 years later still with that texas girl.lol.I wish ya luck with your birds and hope you can lay your hands on some of those black eagle birds.Thanks Again


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## pigeonraiser

Winchester Loft, Would love to read that magazine article you wrote and some of those race results that you spoke of.Thanks for the posts and the knowlege of these black eagle pigeons.Love to hear more.


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## pigeonraiser

What's happend to all our black eagle friends?Would love to keep this thread alive!


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## pigeonraiser

Would like to bump this thread back up for the gentlemen on wanted and for sale looking for black eagles.


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## merl5911

Do you think strombergschickens.com have authentic Black Eagles (BE)? Also, their catalog claimed the BE is larger than the other homers. Is it possible for BE to have some white nails? Thanks!


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## CBL

Hmmm I was gifted a pure black pigeon last year from a top racer in CANADA. Have the BE ever made it this far? I was admiring his blacks that he had fairly new. He had given me a blue bar hen that was sickly, which now I believe had canker back then but he didnt know what was wrong just that she wasn't thriving. So I took her and by day 3 when I noted the doughy crop it was too late. She died. He felt so bad that when he originally denied me a black that I admired and inquired in having, he went ahead and bred one for me because he felt bad for giving me a sick bird that died. He is pure black and I think smaller than the rest of the racers, and if memory serves a bit of white on the rump. I have sent him an email as to the strain, because Im sure not all black pigeons are eagles lol but how cool would that be if he was. IF he is I will retain a hen from same guy and breed a clutch just for $hits and giggles. I wanted the black because I figured if I had or tossed all blacks the hawks may at a glance mistake them for black CROWS and not attack lol. Even if a split second hesitation, that could allow the birds to flee it would be worth it. Thats how I got my black. Just sayin...... lol not I wait on the email from breeder to see what or were his black strain came from.


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## merl5911

CBL said:


> Hmmm I was gifted a pure black pigeon last year from a top racer in CANADA. Have the BE ever made it this far? I was admiring his blacks that he had fairly new. He had given me a blue bar hen that was sickly, which now I believe had canker back then but he didnt know what was wrong just that she wasn't thriving. So I took her and by day 3 when I noted the doughy crop it was too late. She died. He felt so bad that when he originally denied me a black that I admired and inquired in having, he went ahead and bred one for me because he felt bad for giving me a sick bird that died. He is pure black and I think smaller than the rest of the racers, and if memory serves a bit of white on the rump. I have sent him an email as to the strain, because Im sure not all black pigeons are eagles lol but how cool would that be if he was. IF he is I will retain a hen from same guy and breed a clutch just for $hits and giggles. I wanted the black because I figured if I had or tossed all blacks the hawks may at a glance mistake them for black CROWS and not attack lol. Even if a split second hesitation, that could allow the birds to flee it would be worth it. Thats how I got my black. Just sayin...... lol not I wait on the email from breeder to see what or were his black strain came from.


Thanks for sharing. Maybe Mr. winchester can sort of address our concern since he has authentic BE.


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## CBL

That would be great, here is the email from the guy who gave me the bird....

The black bird is the Huysken Van Riel strain. The original bird "Black
Rain" came from Michael Vanlint in Belgium and was sold to Mike Ganus in the
USA, who sold it to another U.S. fancier. This is a long distance strain
that has been around for a while.

Take care.

Tony


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## orock

Here is a article on BE


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## CBL

Cool, so I got ONE of those names in there lol the Van Riels!! Will send that to the breeder that gave me the bird, I told him I would like a hen next year if I win my bylaw case. I love the black AND the pure white those colors are attractive to my eye. Where is this information written? Book, magazine? newsletter?


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## pigeonraiser

Thanks for this info.Always enjoy learning more about this breed.


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