# Turn for the worse!!!!



## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

I went in to check on my supposedly PMV pigeon this morning and his face was wet. When I picked him up I noticed that liquid was coming out of his nose/mouth. It smells sour, and when I offered him some water, I noticed that when his beak went in to get some, the liquid that came off his beak into the water was cloudy. Ah! What is this! What do I do!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can't be for certain but I'd probably treat for canker (Trichomoniasis) given the smell. See if you can get some Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Secnidazole, Carnidazole or even Dimetridazole. Metronidazole is often used for fish and so sometimes you can find an aquarium supply dealer who carries it as "FishZole".

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Open his beak and look down as far as you can to see if you see anything that looks like yellow cheese. I suppose it could also be a yeast bloom down in the crop. How well has food been going through him and what do the poops look like?

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Sarahttt said:


> *I went in to check on my supposedly PMV pigeon this morning and his face was wet. When I picked him up I noticed that liquid was coming out of his nose/mouth. * It smells sour, and when I offered him some water, I noticed that when his beak went in to get some, the liquid that came off his beak into the water was cloudy. Ah! What is this! What do I do!


Sour crop should also be considered.

Cindy


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

His poops change literally every day. This morning it was diareah- lots of liquid, and just mixed up blobs of poop. But two days ago there wasn't much liquid and they were well formed. It does currently smell bad.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you have any medications, a vet as an option or another source of supply?

Pidgey


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

The fish stuff worked great for me when I didn't have the money for a vet, I ended up using "Pimafix" from the fish section of Petsmart on the advice of a rehaber friend. As bad as it is, if the meds work you see results fast for canker.

I have not worked up to rescuing pigeons, sounds like you are really doing all you can. Thank you for caring!
ps I would panic just like you.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm going to be out-of-pocket for several hours. I tend towards the theory that he's suffering from something in the GI that needs to be addressed.

Pidgey


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

Also, yesterday he wasn't eating food very well. He would pick up the food but wouldn't swallow it. But before yesterday he would eat alot.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Does he still have that 'lump' that you were asking about a couple of days ago?


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

ahh... well, I don't really think it was a lump, just the curving of his neck bone. It does seem to me to be too far to the right instead of in the middle, but I really don't know anything about this... Does your bird have the same thing? Like, you can feel his neck bone kinda to the left a bit? I think I was just paranoid. I don't think it is any real kind of lump. And there is no way that he could have hurt his neck, since he was twisting his neck but could still hold it up when I found him. By the end of the day he couldn't though... That was last thursday- the 21st. Pidgey said it might be "a yeast bloom" well, from what I can tell on the internet, medications make those worse because it kills friendly bacteria. But canker... are there any other necessary symptoms to diagnose it? I'm going to try to look in his throat right now, but I also read another thread saying that canker also has legions on the outside of him? Maybe I should put him on this fish stuff, if it won't do him any harm...


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

I look down his throat with a flashlight and I don't see anything unusual like something that stands out.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm sorry he's not doing so well. I hope you are able to figure out what he needs and that he gets better.


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

OK, I went to the petstore and looked for some stuff, and I found PimaFix. So how do I give it to him and how much?
Thanks


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

You know, he has had bad poops on and off for some time, so there probably has been a bacterial infection all along. This is probably just a new manifestation of it. I'm sure this will help.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Sarahttt said:


> OK, I went to the petstore and looked for some stuff, and I found PimaFix. So how do I give it to him and how much?
> Thanks


This appears to be an aquarium treatment for fish. I don't have any idea if you could or should use it for the bird. I think we need some of our more homeopathic savvy members have a look at the product before you use it: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=11269

If you can find Fish Zole or a similar product that contains metronidazole, you could definitely use that if canker is definite or suspected.

Terry


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

I did look for metronidazole, but couldn't find it. So does anyone out there have an opinion?
Thanks
Sarah


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I have no idea what's in that PimaFix or how you'd use it. You're probably going to have to go with ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) to the tune of 2 tablespoons per gallon of water concentration. Since it's 3 teaspoons to the tablespoon, you'd be looking at 1 1/2 to the quart (liter). You could even go two. I don't think you should give up the fight looking for the other stuff but weekends are the world's worst for this kind of thing.

Pidgey


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

One more note
He hasn't eaten today, and not much yesterday. I just put a seed in his mouth and he wouldn't swallow it, and then he puked the sour smelling liquid. So if that helps anyone know what's going on. I'm starting to lose hope. And the sad thing is, his PMV symptoms are improving. He stood up on his own just now, for the first time. He used his previously limp left leg to push himself up. I was quite discouraged today, but something one of you said has stuck with me: "If he won't give up on himself, then don't you give up on him". Well, I won't. Thanks for everyone's continued help.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The PimaFix is for fungal and bacterial infections, but doesn't specify what bacterial infection. You can add to the water but I am not sure how much, that is just in case he has some fungal infection going on. 
You can go to Foy's or Siegel's and have some anticanker medicine shipped overnight, that will cost a lot though.
Other than that you would need a vet to take some cultures of the fluid and see what is going on and treat acordingly. The downside is, the cultures take a while to develop and by that time it might be too late.
So, keep him warm, give water only and add the PimaFix to it.
Another thing you can try is colloidal silver form the health food stores, a few drops down his throat.

Reti


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Sarah,

Sorry I was out this evening here and missed your note. I'm sorry he's having a bad turn, I do hope you can find some help. The ACV will help his stomach problems at least. It's good he's starting to try and stand a bit, he certainly isn't giving up yet. Hope for some good news tomorrow.  

Janet


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Pimafix is made of West africa bay oil. I included it in the dove care e-book on the advice of my local rehab friend. She used it on chickens and doves for canker. Here is some information from her and an avian website regarding canker and pimafix.

"TRICHOMONAS GALLINAE (canker)
Canker (trichomoniasis) is probably the most common disease affecting pigeons throughout the world. It is wide spread in Australian feral and domestic pigeons, both fancy and racing and is also a major cause of death in budgies and canaries.

The disease is caused by the TRICHOMONAD protozoa. There are different strains of the organism which vary widely in their ability to cause disease. Adult birds are often carriers - that is, they have the organism and spread it to other birds but look totally healthy themselves. The organism is commonly spread through food and water by carrier birds and passed from parents to their young. Overcrowding, poor hygiene and other stress factors result in greater spread of infection and debilitate birds so that latent infections become active and cause disease. Canker lesions often become secondarily infected by bacteria and make the disease much worse. (this is where colloidal silver comes in)

In young birds poor growth and deaths are common. In older birds, weight loss and weakness or just poor performance are indicators that there is an underlying trichomonal infection.

The common crop form of canker is the one most breeders are familiar with - the vomiting bird, the bird with froth at the beak, the bird slowly losing weight and eventually dying even though it appears to be eating. The crop form of canker usually results in constrictions forming in or around the crop, stopping the passage of seed and causing the bird to starve to death. A more sinister form of canker occurs in some cases, where the organism invades the liver and causes large cheesy abscesses full of organisms. These birds show no symptoms until the abscesses are well established and most of these birds die of liver failure.

Avian veterinarians can often find the carrier birds by doing a crop-wash and finding the organism under the microscope. However, the bird with liver abscess may escape detection. Because the disease is so common, breeders should look to treating their flocks to either eradicate the organism or stop it from entering their stock.

One Holistic treatment is West Indian Bay extract, pimenta racemosa, 1.0% One drop in drinking water daily for 7 days. Unlike earlier treatments, this in-water medication will not cause infertility, neurological problems or reduce performance. In fact, the drug has no reported side effects (even at excessively high dose rates) and can be used all year round including the breeding season when birds have young in the nest. 
"
WEST AFRICAN BAY

Used in fish to kill fungal diseases. Great cure for Cankar.
Pimenta racemosa var. ozua (Myrtaceae) is a tropical plant, used in different inflammatory processes by the folk medicine of the Caribbean region. From the methanol extract of the leaves a terpenic compound identified as lupeol has been isolated for the first time in this species. The anti-inflammatory activity of the extract has been evaluated against two experimental models of acute inflammation: paw edema in rats, using carrageenan or dextran as phlogogen agents, and ear edema in mice, inducing the inflammation with 12-o-tetradecanoylphorbol acetate (TPA). Myeloperoxidase activity (MPO) was also assayed as an indicator of leukocytary migration in the inflamed ears. In the carrageenan test, the methanol extract (125 and 250 mg kg(-1) p.o.) had a dose-dependent and significant effect at different time intervals. On the contrary, when the dextran was injected in paw, the extract did not reduce the inflammation provoked. This behavior was similar to indomethacine (25 mg kg(-1)) used as a standard drug. In the TPA-induced ear edema, the methanol extract (0.5, 1 and 3 mg ear(-1)) significantly reduced the inflammation. In the MPO assay a significant inhibition of the enzyme was observed in the inflamed tissue in all the samples assayed. These results show that the methanol extract from the leaves of Pimenta racemosa var. ozua, is effective against acute inflammation processes, by oral route and when topically applied. The anti-inflammatory behavior of the extract was similar to that exhibited by the selective cyclo-oxygenase inhibitor, indomethacin. The antibacterial activity of essential oils of Pimenta racemosa var. terebinthina and P. racemosa var. grisea was determined against Gram (+) and Gram (-) bacteria. P. racemosa var. grisea demonstrated a more pronounced activity. These data would indicate the potential usefulness of the variety grisea as a microbiostatic, antiseptic or disinfectant agent."
(birds have trouble dealing with inflammation caused by canker, so pimafix has an important role here)


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Sarahttt said:


> I did look for metronidazole, but couldn't find it. So does anyone out there have an opinion?
> Thanks
> Sarah


I've been doing a lot of research lately, due to making that e-book for myself and having doves. I had the same problem you did, with finding medicines FAST. The way I see it you have to do something, you can't wait, and we might as well try the one thing you could find. I was a little hesitant about using it, but beggars can't be choosers and Connie said it would help. It was also significantly easier on the pocketbook (I feel bad saying that) than a doctor.


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

make sure you give him lots of probiotics too, to help restore his good flora!

Good luck.
I hope he gets better soon


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

philodice,

Thank you for the information.

What exactly would the dose be? A drop to how much water?


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Pimafix is unfortunately made from one of the plants that the FDA never finished testing.
They started testing, enough to know it won't hurt dogs, fish, or birds, and enough to verify the info I copied earlier. It won't work on foot swelling (odd) but it does especially well on the mouth fungus in animals and on blisters and pimples in humans. So on humans I would use it topically and internally for animals, in the same dilution (1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water). You could up the doseage after determining that you have no reaction to it, like some people will use tea tree straight out of the bottle for sunburns, but I can't. It burns me bad. I wish the testing had been completed. We know pima kills germs and bacteria and helps stop swelling, but we don't know which germs, fungus, and bacteria. That's why I use colloidal silver with it. Neem does similar things to west african bay oil, and had more scientific evidence and testing behind it as well as more information on doseages. I'd have used Neem oil personally but it wasn't what Connie suggested. I'll try Neem next time.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

PS I am really wanting to know how the poor bird is doing!


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

Hey
My bird is still puking. Is that a symptom of canker? His PMV symptoms are way down though, his neck has really loosened up and he can take a few steps on his own. Which also makes him a little more hard to handle 
He still can't eat but he usually eats about six tiny seeds before giving up. He is drinking plenty of water. I didn't know how much Pimafix to give him, (I figured it was more than the recommendation for fish) so I'd say he's had the equivalent of one drop over the past few days. According to what you have said this is too much, so perhaps I'll put that on hold for another two days and see if he improves.
What's a probiotic? So far in his water there's been a little bit of pimafix, but also a pinch of salt and sugar. I've not yet added apple cider vinegar, but I did add a little bit of applesauce to some water and give him that on advice of one of my sister's friends who has had some experience with sick birds (I know not a great source for info). I figured he needed some nutrition since he wasn't eating. So there's an update. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Sarah


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It is generally not recommended to mix medications with each other or with other substances (like apple sauce, sugar etc) You can give them individually though.
The bird has to eat more than 6 seeds at a time, do you have any formula for birds?
Is there a chance you can get the bird to a vet? 

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for your update.

Applesauce is not the same as apple cider vinegar, however it is supposed to help with slow crop, per Cynthia. 

Apple Cider Vinegar has a very good acidy PH which inhibits growth of bacteria and actually creates a good environment for good gut bacteria to thrive. Probiotics is what provides good gut flora and growth of good gut bacteria which can take over and decrease bad bacteria.

Please find a bird formula as mentioned, or give this bird wild bird seed, because that is the diet he needs-that gives him the nutrition he needs. He needs to eat at least 1 tablespoon pigeon or bird seed per meal and then drink. If he is drinking alot that means he must have very wet droppings, which is not good. The probiotics will help with that and ACV.
If he is not getting enough to eat, he needs to be hand fed, as that will not help at all in his recovery.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Then it sounds like vet time to me, too. If the herb oil didn't start helping (show improvement) in a few hours, it isn't going to help.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Sarah,

Infant apple sauce is good for slow crop. Kaytee Exact recommend mixing one half Kaytee and one half infant apple sauce../ they also recommend increasing the ambient temperature if there is slow crop. 

I have never had a pigeon with canker vomit, but it is a possibility and it is better to err on the safe side and treat for canker, but while he is vomiting the medication can't take effect. I am inclined to agree with Cindy about the possibility of sour crop. When this happens to a pigeon in my care I hold off the food and put a pinch of bicarbonate of soda in his drinking water. I think your name for it is baking soda.

Natural yoghurt is a good probiotic, you can also find specially manufactured probiotics. They encourage good gut flora and crowd out harmful bacteria. There is a specific probiotic in the UK called "Special Brew" that is wonderful for sour crop. I don't know if you get it there.

Can you just clarify what colour the liquid that he regurgitates is and whether you are force feeding him ?


Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Infant apple sauce is good for slow crop. Kaytee Exact recommend mixing one half Kaytee and one half infant apple sauce../ they also recommend increasing the ambient temperature if there is slow crop.
> Cynthia


That is interesting, I thought the member was using it for ACV alternative. Thank you.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry Trees, that was my response to the quote below, typed earlier this afternoon but posted after I had been into the city to feed the pigeons as we seem to be due for some cold weather!



> I did add a little bit of applesauce to some water and give him that on advice of one of my sister's friends who has had some experience with sick birds (I know not a great source for info).


Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I use infant applesauce for slow crop too.


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

Hey
He's not doing too well. Still puking. I haven't been force feeding him, since I've been worried that maybe something was stuck down there or something. *So should I try to force him to eat?* He hasn't eaten since Friday. (except those six seeds on Saturday) When I really encourage him he'll grab a few seeds and hold them in his mouth for a few seconds, but then he just spits them out without swallowing. Why do you think he has slow crop? I just gave him water now, he's drinking alot, but he puked twice in the time I was with him just now. He'll make a little gurgle sound and then the air will smell really bad for a few seconds, like he burped or something. When he pukes, its just a drop or two of this clear but very cloudy liquid that smells bad. Shouldn't I be able to feel it if its slow crop? His crop would be all puffy right? Could it be something else?


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## Sarahttt (Feb 22, 2008)

ok
I just checked him out again and I felt his crop and was thinking that that does feel a bit puffy (not that I know what normal feels like) and all at once he started really puking, like alot like, I'd say 15+ drops. So. I guess it does look like he may have a blockage right? Should I go ahead and give him some baking soda?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You can give him a tiny bit of baking soda, but I think it is time to get some Flagyl or another anticanker medicine. If that is what he has, it won't go away and he won't make it. The longer you wait the less chances for survival he has. 
If he has an obstruction the seeds might not pass through or it might even be painful for him to swallow. Do you have any formula? He needs some nutrition and water too.
Even if it is only sour crop he still needs some serious treatment at this point, but from the description it sounds more like canker. Sour crop smells bad nothing smelles as bad as canker.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You should go ahead and get some baking soda water into the little one OR some apple cider vinegar water in .. one OR the other NOT both. Be sure the youngster is plenty warm and see if the crop will completely empty and how much time that takes. It has been a very long time for this bird to have gone without food, and I suspect we are now in serious trouble in that regard. The bird needs nutrition, but if you try to feed it without knowing if the crop is emptying, then it will just compound the problem if the crop has already stopped.

As Reti posted, it sounds like it is time for getting some meds on hand and probably time for the bird to be seen by an avian vet. It is possible that the crop needs to be emptied, and that is something best done by a vet or an experienced person as the process can aspirate fluid into the respiratory system if done improperly which will either kill the bird or make it very ill.

Terry


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## Bruce (Feb 27, 2004)

*Is your bird still alive?*

If so email me directly - [email protected]


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