# help me produce more of these bronzes



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Alright well i have this bronze mottle? I'm really nice sure what to call it, its bronze, white and black. The bird is a hen, so i think that makes it harder, but i want more birds that look like this one. What do i need to pair it up with to have more? It just picked a mate with my silver bar grizzle. I also have black mottles to pair it with if i need to. I have one bird which is a black mottle but shows bronze in the wing, but its too young right now.

Whats the best pair up to get more of these?
Most of my birds are shown here, except i have a lot more light mottle prints.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f39/my-new-tipplers-56433.html

the bird i speak of is this one.


----------



## pygmypigeon98 (Aug 8, 2011)

She's a beauty!  Why don't you try taming her?


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

if they weren't tame they would fly away. They are happier outside and with other pigeons. But thanks, she a good looking bird, thats why i want more.


----------



## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

breed it to blue bar. blue bar is not dominant so they produce more bronze


----------



## pygmypigeon98 (Aug 8, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> if they weren't tame they would fly away. They are happier outside and with other pigeons. But thanks, she a good looking bird, thats why i want more.


You were lucky to get such a pretty pigeon. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I only haVe one BBand I'm going to pair that pair that up with a silver bar cause I want more of them. I'm don't know how mottle works or bronze so I don't know what will work.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I would mate it to a velvet or spread. I'm not an expert on how all the bronze genes are inherited either, but they are modifiers, so separate from BB and such.
Mottle is dominant like normal grizzle.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Alright, so a dilute wouldn't mess anything up? I'll pair either the 2010 blue spread or a silver velvet. But just wondering, why would that be better than a silver bar grizzle? Grizzle would mess it up? Just want to make sure silver bar grizzle wouldn't work because they just paired up. I'm out to build some pairing up cages tomorrow. I was going to make them big. Like 2x3, just for pairing up not mating.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Usually you get more bronze color on birds who are t-pattern or spread, so that's why I suggested it rather than the barred bird  Dilute bronze makes "sulphur" which is a pretty yellowy color.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

well, its nice, but i rather not haha. But i want to keep its pattern, what would you call it? Mottle? So i don't have any velvets that arnt silver. *i want color and pattern, I want tue Same look this bird has* so mating it up with a black would give me what? 50% spread, other 50 mottle? assuming this bird is mottle. I never seen a tri color mottle.So why wouldnt a black mottle be good? like this bird.










or just any of my mostly white ones like these.


----------



## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

http://www.nwoetc.com/news_item.lasso?id=17


----------



## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

I looked at the rest of your birds and you have a few recessive red tipplers,they would be the best to mate to her to if you want to produce more mottle bronze tipplers.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

why would reds be better than black? I was just going to pair my reds up with reds, but if this would be the best..


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

These bronze birds are split for recessive red I believe. Which is why putting them with RRs is best. Although that will give you 50% RR and 50% bronze. That kind of bronze is complex. I'm guessing it's tippler bronze? Like kite bronze, which needs velvet, bronze, and split for RR.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

okay thanks, i tried looking for info on bronze on angelfire but didnt see any. If its spilt for RR then i would be fine with pairing it up with a red, but i think i may have another bronze, he only shows it little, maybe after a moult it would be more? Ill take a good picture of it and post it in about 2 hours.


----------



## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

The RR have tippler bronze in them. You will breed Bronze mottle tipplers and RR tipplers out of them.If you mate her to a black mottle you will breed all blacks.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

This was the bird i was talking about










This would be the red i would pair it up with


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Which bronzes are not covered by black (spread)?


----------



## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

I would mate her to the recessive RED .


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Which bronzes are not covered by black (spread)?


As I understand it, the bronzes that are not related to stencilling and pattern will not express through spread, for example brander / tippler / archangel, while Modena bronze will push through the black and allow black birds with bronze pattern.

For example, archangel bronze on a black bird gives a black bird with a coppery collar, similar to what some Egyptian swifts look like, but does express nearly the same degree of bronze as the normal archangel bronze on the 'extreme dirty sooty smoky blue T-pattern (mimic black)' phenotype. 

The bronze in question here is probably not related to toy stencil complex, but probably tippler bronze, which definitely is expressed best on blue T-pattern birds split for recessive red. This bronze combined with tiger grizzle (mottle) gives the appearance we see here. The best example of this bronze is in the 'Schoorsteenveger' color. A good genetics article of which can be found here (by Hans Bulte - in Dutch).


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

alright thanks, she will go with the red.


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> As I understand it, the bronzes that are not related to stencilling and pattern will not express through spread, for example brander / tippler / archangel, while Modena bronze will push through the black and allow black birds with bronze pattern.
> 
> For example, archangel bronze on a black bird gives a black bird with a coppery collar, similar to what some Egyptian swifts look like, but does express nearly the same degree of bronze as the normal archangel bronze on the 'extreme dirty sooty smoky blue T-pattern (mimic black)' phenotype.
> 
> The bronze in question here is probably not related to toy stencil complex, but probably tippler bronze, which definitely is expressed best on blue T-pattern birds split for recessive red. This bronze combined with tiger grizzle (mottle) gives the appearance we see here. The best example of this bronze is in the 'Schoorsteenveger' color. A good genetics article of which can be found here (by Hans Bulte - in Dutch).


Thank you


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Thank you


I checked again, and I was wrong about the Modena bronze pushing through the black spread. I was sure that I had seen black birds with bronze checks or bars, but I must have imagined it. None of the stencil related bronzes show up on spread black either, unless the actual stencil genes are present, in which case the bronze would not be intense but rather washed out. As seen in breeding programs to transfer toy stencil to homers or archangels.

Some or all the bronzing factors could possibly make spread black birds show bronzing, but in most cases, will not give a deep rich copper / bronze. 

Archangel bronze alone will cause a copper cast to the neck while kite bronze will show up on the shields (expression may vary, as it always does with Kite bronze). I have no experience with or reliable sources of information about the interaction of the other bronzes (Tippler bronze, Lebannon bronze) with the spread factor.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

*Thanks everyone*

So I know the reds have the bronzes but bronzes also have rec red? I really don't see why they need each other but ok. I did end up doing the pairing as above and had my first egg drop today, so i guess in a month i will know what happens. I wouldnt be surprised at bronze, but another red kinda will. I find it confusing how every single brander bronze needs to carry rec red? 

Anyways... i was wondering how you go about getting a bronze like this? is it spread bronze? I would like just a bronze, nothing else going on










or like this one, this is a show tippler


----------

