# Pox, salmonella, canker together?



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

This is an ungly case of mouth pox, you can see in photo that there are some external wounds, break of shin with some yellow stuff on them. Also, there is a liquid in nose and throat and the same or other kind of liquid in eye.

Accoring th Chevita table of symptoms, watery eye discharge is most likely caused by salmonella and remember a case with similar symptoms (some enlargement of eyelid, the aqueous eye discharge) and which died sudden, I concluded it may be salmonella and administered one antibiotic injection. Previously, the bird was on ronidazole for 3 days.

At the moment, as I gave the antibiotic, I have to delay the tratment for canker with 12 hours.


Do anybody knows if the way the eye looks, may indicate canker as well?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I am not an expert but watery discharge could be because of canker. 
I would give him a complete treatment for canker, metronidazole 50 mg for at least 10 days without any breaks. 
Poor bird.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

From: Field Manual of Wildlife Diseases: Birds 

www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_25.pdf




> Gross Lesions
> 
> The severity and appearance of lesions varies with the virulence of the strain of the parasite, the stage of infection, and the age of the bird. The most visible lesions from mildly pathogenic strains may simply appear as excess salivation and inflammation of the mucosa or lining of the mouth and throat. Early oral lesions appear as small, well defined, cream to yellowish spots on the mucosal surface (Fig. 25.5A).
> 
> ...


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you Kiddy and John!

Last evening, after giving the Lincospectin, I also gave metronidazole, at around 3 hours difference. I hurried both because the bird condition was not good, he was seemingly suffering and breath slightly open mouthed. In the morning, the eyes were normal,not swollen or wattery and the bird seemed calm. Now is good, eats, stays with the other pigeons. I didn't pay attention but she / he may have bathed together with the other too*.

I tend to think pox is present, because inside the mouth there is that kind of lesion at the articulation of the two parts of the beak like swelling, with sort of white "core". But I may be wrong and be only canker. 


*I know some of you will be alarmed that I didn't isolate the bird but I don't have the same and from previous cases of mouth pox (last two presentled here as well) I noticed other birds didn't get infected.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Quite strange you didn't separate him. You can at least get a card board box. If from the last two they didn't get infected, doesn't mean they will never be. I would never risk any of their lives and never put any of them to sufferings. You know better how painful are the diseases for us, this is just animals can't speak and tell you but they too suffer badly, even many diseases are life threatening, you know this better than me. 

Pls try to understand them Andrei.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

kiddy said:


> Quite strange you didn't separate him. You can at least get a card board box. If from the last two they didn't get infected, doesn't mean they will never be. I would never risk any of their lives and never put any of them to sufferings. You know better how painful are the diseases for us, this is just animals can't speak and tell you but they too suffer badly, even many diseases are life threatening, you know this better than me.
> 
> Pls try to understand them Andrei.


I actually protect one bird from the one sick with pox. Is a bird with the legs paralysed (following coccidiosis as baby) that, because weakness, may get infected. The other pigeons are robust and don't get sick, though they may be carriers.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

As an update, the bird seems behaviourally ok (doesn't look distressed, eats well, fly) but this night she / he again started to have wattery eyes and in nose and mouth is some yellowish liquid. I will keep with metro, as it proved effective. I think you were right kiddy,the wattery eyes were caused by canker.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

It's an absolute basic that sick birds are separated from healthy birds!

Even the strongest, healthiest bird can get an infection from a sick bird or, *as you yourself said*, could become a carrier - *and pass on the infection to birds who may not be as robust*.

Even when a sick bird may be sick from a different cause to another sick bird, they should not be close enough to risk a cross-infection and make them worse.

You need to re-think your arrangements - no excuses!


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I know what you say John. But I am of the conviction that is better to let a bird has a viral disease in order to become immune to it, it this doesn't threated her / his life. Is the best "vaccine", as the vaccines produced by humans are only of temporarily effect, while the natural "vaccine" has permanent effect. 

I used to isolate all birds with pox and probably I'm gonna isolate those in future that will be having external pox, but in last year or so I didn't isolate the ones with mouth pox (perhaps around 4 cases) and haven't experienced transmissions, except once or twice to very sick & immunodepressed birds, that died in a matter of days (of other cause) after the first marks of pox.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

AndreiS said:


> I know what you say John. But I am of the conviction that is better to let a bird has a viral disease in order to become immune to it, it this doesn't threated her / his life. Is the best "vaccine", as the vaccines produced by humans are only of temporarily effect, while the natural "vaccine" has permanent effect.


Sorry, but this indefensible and inaccurate!

Examples ….

* Would you expose a bird to PMV thinking it will become immune? Having PMV doesn’t bring lifetime immunity - just a couple of years or so - and the pigeon may have neurological problems that do not go away. If you expose an otherwise healthy pigeon to PMV, you might have to keep it for three weeks to find out if it became infected, because of the incubation period. 

* Pigeons who contract the ‘wet pox’ from another pigeon can die. 
Avian Viruses: Function and Control (Branson W. Ritchie, DVM, PhD): “Necrotic debris may accumulate in the trachea of severely infected pigeons, causing death by asphyxiation.” 

* Circovirus breaks down the immune system, and the bird will most often die from a combination of unconnected causes.



> I used to isolate all birds with pox and probably I'm gonna isolate those in future that will be having external pox, but in last year or so I didn't isolate the ones with mouth pox (perhaps around 4 cases) and haven't experienced transmissions, except once or twice to very sick & immunodepressed birds, that died in a matter of days (of other cause) after the first marks of pox.


You had birds who were *already* sick, and they then got Pox? Why were those birds not already isolated - or do you just not bother to isolate any, regardless of why they are sick?

It is pretty obvious, I believe, that you need to rethink your 'conviction' for the sake of any sick birds you get in, and definitely never advise others to do the same as you.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I do not have the means of isolating properly, in cages, I can only isolate by puting them in cardboard boxes which after a week or even less becomes alienating for birds, I mean they may get mental disorders. I do isolate only if the bird would prefer such a place, because of being weak. 

Those birds who were sick and got pox were not isolated or were put together with the pigeons with pox on the electric blanket, which acts as isolation space , having a metalic frame on top of it and some bed sheets over the frame. This was some months back and don't remember the details. Was a single case or perhaps two.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Andrei, any sick birds NEED to be separated from the others. Doing it your way, you are no better than a laboratory that purposely infects animals with a disease to see how they will fare. These poor birds are in your care, and instead of helping them, you expose them to many new threats of illness. Why would you let a sick bird be kept with a bird who is sick with another disease? Of course he is going to succumb to it. You think of yourself as a helper and care taker, when you are actually being cruel to expose them to each others illnesses. That is the worst management I have ever heard of.

That bird needs to be treated for canker for at least 10 days, then see how he is doing. He may need longer treatment. Any bird, healthy or not, can get canker and you are exposing the others to it by keeping them together.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Andrei, any sick birds NEED to be separated from the others. Doing it your way, you are no better than a laboratory that purposely infects animals with a disease to see how they will fare. These poor birds are in your care, and instead of helping them, you expose them to many new threats of illness. Why would you let a sick bird be kept with a bird who is sick with another disease? Of course he is going to succumb to it. You think of yourself as a helper and care taker, when you are actually being cruel to expose them to each others illnesses. That is the worst management I have ever heard of.
> 
> That bird needs to be treated for canker for at least 10 days, then see how he is doing. He may need longer treatment. Any bird, healthy or not, can get canker and you are exposing the others to it by keeping them together.


I keep around 30 pigeons in two small rooms, no more than 4 x 3 m each room. Is impossible to isolate them and the environment is anyway contaminated with coccidiosis, e-coli and probably other diseases but I manage to make them pass over diseases and become remarkably immune and strong, though many of them are quite sedentary, rarely flying outside.

If there is a new bird that appears to have a contagious disease capable of infecting others, I isolate this bird. In fact, sick birds are kept on that covered electric blanket but some of them prefer to stay in other places in room.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, please, can you put them in small bird cages in separate rooms until they are better? Thanks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I keep around 30 pigeons in two small rooms, no more than 4 x 3 m each room. Is impossible to isolate them and the environment is anyway contaminated with coccidiosis, e-coli and probably other diseases but I manage to make them pass over diseases and become remarkably immune and strong, though many of them are quite sedentary, rarely flying outside.
> 
> If you can't isolate, then you shouldn't take them in. Not fair to the birds that are there already. You can clean the environment of disease. And they do not become immune to these things. If you believe that, you are very naive about such things.
> 
> If there is a new bird that appears to have a contagious disease capable of infecting others, I isolate this bird. In fact, sick birds are kept on that covered electric blanket but some of them prefer to stay in other places in room.


You don't put sick birds together. And actually every bird should be separate for a month before putting in with others.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> If you can't isolate, then you shouldn't take them in. Not fair to the birds that are there already.


And what should I do, let they die in the street? Ofcourse is better to bring them. 

And as I said, no older bird has died in last years, except four, but from other causes than infection from new birds (one from septicemia caused by salmonella which followed worm infection and three from blocked gissard). 

These birds of mine are robust, strong and though ocassionaly they get sick with coccidiosis, they recover after a few days amprolium cure. And this in the situation in which I continuously bring new birds. Yesterday I picked two, few days ago another three and tomorrow I'm meeting with someone giving me another bird. The weather changed suddenly here, in less than a month from summer with over 30C to temperatures below freezing and with cold and long rains and many birds physiologically collapsed.





> You can clean the environment of disease. And they do not become immune to these things. If you believe that, you are very naive about such things.


The environment is furniture, impracticable to disinfect. And it make no sense because they are carriers and reinfect the environment immediately. Is an unbreakable cycle, environment infects birds and birds infect environment. But carefully managed, you make them survive and become stronger than other birds that are isolated during diseases, kept in an environment excessively disinfected.

And after multiple infestations with a disease, birds develop a certain resistence to it. I can give you several vet websites saying this and other members on this forum should know this. For example,this page of Dr. Colin Walker, where he recommends moderate exposure to chlamydia (or any othert disease), in order to strengthen the birds against this disease:


_. Ongoing low-grade exposure through early life tends to reinforce and strengthen the birds’ developing natural immunity. _
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/chlamydia.html


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, hope the poor bird is well soon. Please try to separate him. He won't get a mental disorder if he is separate but knows other birds are nearby while he is getting well. I know you love pigeons. Please try to separate sick ones so they will be well physically. Thanks. Even a cardboard box or cat carrier or smaller cage for a sick bird would help separate them while they are getting well. A sick bird needs to be isolated not so just so he won't spread disease but to keep him isolated from others problems while he is healing. Hope things are better soon.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

AndreiS said:


> And after multiple infestations with a disease, birds develop a certain resistence to it


Sorry, but that does not make any kind of sense. I think you intended to convey something other than what you actually wrote.



> For example,this page of Dr. Colin Walker, where he recommends moderate exposure to chlamydia (or any othert disease), in order to strengthen the birds against this disease:
> 
> 
> Ongoing low-grade exposure through early life tends to reinforce and strengthen the birds’ developing natural immunity.
> ...


Andrei, Dr. Walker in that article is NOT recommending exposure to disease! Read it more carefully. He is referring to immunity to a specific strain of a specific disease acquired by developing birds from their parents.

There is no point in us trying to talk commonsense pigeon health issues with somebody who simply refuses, or is unable, to understand.

I do not think you are in a good position from which to hand out advice and 'over the web' diagnoses to other people, and we will be considering that when your posts come up for review by the mods.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Andrei, you of course don't have to let them die in the street but try to better your set up. 
A car board box is much better for that or even some cage for a new bird who comes up, whatever you can arrange. 
You keep on reading so much on the Internet so I think you can go do some studies there if we aren't that understandable to you. 

When we think we are doing perfect and keep defending our points we actually close all the doors to further knowledge.

John and Jay have already tried everything, they are far more experienced than me so I think I don't have anything else to add. 
If you defend your points here, pls review them by yourself when alone , that can enlighten you much more. 

Sorry if anything makes you feel offended but think about the birds who you take in to save but they get exposed to many other life threatening diseases.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

John_D said:


> Sorry, but that does not make any kind of sense. I think you intended to convey something other than what you actually wrote.
> 
> 
> 
> Andrei, Dr. Walker in that article is NOT recommending exposure to disease! Read it more carefully. He is referring to immunity to a specific strain of a specific disease acquired by developing birds from their parents.


Is not only Dr. Walker. I can give you other examples of vets recommending the same thing. In fact, many drugs are not working by killing the germ, just stop it from developing, thus allowing the bird to develop immunity to it. This category of drugs are called bacterio*statics*, or coccidio*statics* etc, instead of bacteri*cid*, which means it kills the germ.


In the case of drugs for coccidiosis, e.g., *all* of them (amprollium,sulpha drugs) are coccidiostatics:
_

coccidiostat: a chemical agent added to animal feed (as for poultry) that serves to retard the life cycle or reduce the population of pathogenic coccidia to the point that disease is minimized and the *host develops immunity* _






> I do not think you are in a good position from which to hand out advice and 'over the web' diagnoses to other people, and we will be considering that when your posts come up for review by the mods.


You already have censored many if not most of my messages and in some cases may not have been a good idea, like the 5 or 6 messages with the same content that I addressed to Cwebster, in which I was speaking about giving water with acv intsead of Fluconazole. Finally, you let one of those messages after a week, so you thought I may be right. Now, retrospectively looking, I think that if the Fluconazole cure would been replaced with water & acv, candida would been cleared faster and without intoxicating the bird, thus leading to her salvation.

And I'm giving 'over the web' diagnoses more than anybody else here gives.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Andrei, I have taken in many rescues who are sick with one thing or another, but if in taking in sick birds from the streets, my only option was to expose the birds already in my care, then I would not be able to take in the new birds. 
It is well to help birds in need, but YOU OWE IT TO THE BIRDS ALREADY IN YOUR CARE TO KEEP THEM SAFE. That comes first, then any other birds that you help. It isn't even fair to the birds you bring in to expose them to other illnesses.

Colin Walker is talking about allowing birds to build a natural immunity from their parents and flock, which they get by being exposed to small amounts of things when very young. That helps them to build immunity. And they build an immunity to things in their flock. Being exposed to full blown sickness and disease is totally different. Birds don't build immunity that way. They get sick. I think you read things and then take them the way you want to. Not really what they are saying, but you take them in a way that fits in with your belief. You are not open minded. You refuse to listen to what anyone tries to tell you. But if you are bringing sick birds into more sickness, then you are not doing them any good. They would be better off left on their own.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

kiddy said:


> When we think we are doing perfect and keep defending our points we actually close all the doors to further knowledge.


Kiddy, I used to isolate birds in cardboard boxes, I did this with tens of birds until few months ago and I'm gonna do in future if I think is necessary. Also, the nests of the coupled pigeons are actually cardboard boxes, but they are free to live.
As I stay during day in the same room with one of the two groups of pigeons (the younger & sick), I monitorize them permanently and I can take care if there is a sign of a problem. Early intervention means diseases can't go far and that explains why my pigeons are healthy though I continuously bring new pigeons among them. Also, I give them as many supplements as possible and try to mantain an environment ss comfortyable as possible, which in terms of spent time is costly: only cleaning takes me 8-9 hours daily (and nightly actually), plus another few hours for (hand) feeding and medicating. 

So I think is not me inflexible, on the contrary, is me who propose a change. Theoretically it could be wrong, but my experience has shown is not wrong.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You constantly mix sick and injured birds with other sick and injured birds. That is a very unsafe practice for the birds. Don't understand why you do not see that. You can also have them in cages and still monitor them. Actually, cages make it easier to monitor each bird.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> You already have censored many if not most of my messages and in some cases may not have been a good idea, like the 5 or 6 messages with the same content that I addressed to Cwebster, in which I was speaking about giving water with acv intsead of Fluconazole. Finally, you let one of those messages after a week, so you thought I may be right. Now, retrospectively looking, I think that if the Fluconazole cure would been replaced with water & acv, candida would been cleared faster and without intoxicating the bird, thus leading to her salvation.
> 
> And I'm giving 'over the web' diagnoses more than anybody else here gives.


Andrie, when we decide to moderate someone's posts and vet them before posting it is whole sole decision of moderators to post them or not, may or may not be a good idea for a member on moderation. Of course you think your posts most helpful so you offer the advices. It is not to be discussed here too still for your curiosity, you offered ACV advice many times and that was posted too, you constantly kept asking her to ask vet to use ACV and she passed on the information to vet but the vet refused to implement saying flucanozole is better choice. Still you kept asking the vet to try. It was the vet's choice not yours when the bird was with him. Also as I remember necroscopy showed the candida was cleared up. So, It could be one of many posts with the same info about ACV you mentioned but that were already posted many times if you go thru the same thread and check again.

If you have any complaints still, can be handled privately.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I am starting to run out of patience. This debate is just going nowhere. 

I absolutely agree with what Kiddy just said, also. If a bird is under the care of a vet then it is between the vet and the bird's owner. I would say, keep out of it.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> You constantly mix sick and injured birds with other sick and injured birds. That is a very unsafe practice for the birds. Don't understand why you do not see that. You can also have them in cages and still monitor them. Actually, cages make it easier to monitor each bird.


I have no money to buy cages and even if I had, if such cages are not in a proper space - an aviary - but an appartment room - as is my case - the birds will get too stressed because of lack of ventilation and other factors. 

Also, the fact that they can fly around the room and stay in sun at window is very important for their health. One of the room has a balcony closed with glass and they have an extraspace to fly and here stayed the young & sick group over summer. The other room is toward the back of the building, where is a largecourtyard (~100 x 100 m) with tall trees (poplar mostly) with dense foliage were the adult group stayed over summer and where the birds feel very good. The adult group was free to fly outside (the windows was permanently open). This room is good because the sun hits the window during midday and afternoon and now, when here is the young & sick group, they stay at window in direct sun (through a mosquito net). Here is the place on Google Maps:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4421309,26.15594,176m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Unfortunately John is right. This is going nowhere. I'm done.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, I know you care about your birds. Maybe you can just isolate any with symptoms in boxes just temporarily while they are being treated. I think it is important to try to keep sick birds from passing along diseases to your healthy ones. Once they recover they can rejoin the others. I appreciate your trying to make suggestions about things like ACV. As it turned out Chloe's candida had disappeared and she had aspergillosis by this point from immune suppression. You don't want your birds to get that immune suppression. ACV and strong anti fungals like fluconazole were too late. So please when somebody is sick try to isolate them. I had a scrub jay in one bathroom for a while to isolate him, and a cat in another bathroom. Maybe you can put the poor sick bird in a box or upside down laundry basket or borrow a cat or dog crate or something. He doesn't have to stay in it forever, just until the treatment is done and he is well. Then he can go back with the other birds. You can still give him love and attention and can keep a better eye on him if he is by himself. Just wash between critters. I keep a bottle of alcohol stuff by every sink and have very dry skin but I try to not let anything infect anything else...frogs, fish, birds, cats, guinea pigs, lizards. Hope you can come up with a makeshift temporary house for the sick bird. I know you are creative and that you care. It's like having sick kids. You have to keep the one with the runny nose away from the other healthy kids.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> AndreiS, I know you care about your birds. Maybe you can just isolate any with symptoms in boxes just temporarily while they are being treated.


If is one in bad condition, he / she will prefer to stay in the heated shelter built on top of the electric blanket (see the video) on his / her own. If is something that I think is contagious I will isolate further more, in a cardboard box inside that shelter.

If the newly introduced bird prefers to stay with others, I let her. If has some disease that can pass to others I will treat him and if others get sick I will treat them as well. Is useful for birds to pass through many diseases, as they develop immunity. But in practice, before few cases of pox, I don't remember a new bird to have infected the older birds. What happens is the other way around, the new birds get coccidiosis (if didn't have) from the infested environment and with drug support, they increase their resistence to this disease, not in the sense they never get sick but in the sense they get sick harder and in milder forms. 

Here is a video with young and sick group of birds (first is the one this thread is about). You can see they look well, even the ones rescued two days ago, who were so sick they didn't run when I picked them.

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bNV3SCfKsc*









> You don't want your birds to get that immune suppression.


Drugs create immunosupression too. You don't seem to understand this.





> Then he can go back with the other birds.


I noticed this kind of confinement disturbs them, makes them scared and when you release them, they don't return. Plus, in the case of PMV, it prolongs the symptoms. Like humans, birds are not only physical bodies but souls with mind and they have to be treated holistically. Pyschology may be more important that drug treatment in some situations.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, when a bird is as sick as the one in the photo with which you began this thread, I'm sorry, but I agree with others that it should be isolated.


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## Flossy (Mar 8, 2015)

Although this is many years past I have to say...Doubt that bird survived with the protective scabs being removed & the virus tubes being crushed. I can see the infection has got into the nostril. The birds eye is terribly scarred with the scabs being torn off. Pox never scars so this is a right mess. Canker can only grow on mucosal areas & not travel upside the face to the eye nor gain entry to that eye in any other way & survive. Wet pox in the beak will grow in the front half canker always in the back half if you draw an imaginary line through the beak. Canker can be teased away wet pox cannot & should not be. It can be treated, however, with crushed wet spartrix painted on avoiding the keratin of the beak, otherwise it will destroy it. Paint only on the wet pox lesion. Antibiotics will cause poc to become hyper.Cover external pox with zovirax to hold it in stasis. It's not a cure but it will prevent new lesions appearing if properly applied after liquid TCP.


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## navamanas (Mar 17, 2016)

AndreiS said:


> ...environment infects birds and birds infect environment. But carefully managed, you make them survive and become stronger than other birds that are isolated during diseases, kept in an environment excessively disinfected...


You are absolutely right about that. Anyone who disagrees with it (like a few of those responders to your post) is probably freaked out about covid, staying 6 feet away from everyone else, and wearing gloves and masks all day, every day "because science," just like the geocentric universe.


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## Flossy (Mar 8, 2015)

Birds do not get canker on the eye. This is pox which has had the protective scabs removed. This is unfortunate as it allows the virus to spread. Liquid which is yellowish in the nostrils probably means the choanal slot in upper beak is infected, usually with canker and the slot would need brushing with lemon juice & crushed spartrix. Being careful not to overdo as spartrix can destroy keratin of the beak . Dry pox never scars unless someone tries to remove scabs, it just heals & drops off. Should be treated carefully with TCP then edges rubbed with acyclovir to keep the virus in situ.Nostrils treated with the acyclovir stop virus from entering in our many experiences treating birds with pox.
The birds immune system must be super boosted & wellbeing boosted to ensure the bird battles through. Treating the common on board pathogens with harker 4 & nothing too strong should help keep numbers low & from causing issues.Spartrix at least 4 days for canker. Birds normally have more than one infection for it to bring them down but I warn against giving antibiotics too freely. They can prevent immunity being super boosted & cause hyper pox where feather follicles & wet pox are much more likely to occur.
A powerful vitamin supplement containing Lysine & methionine like Aviform 11 in one plus echinacea/ Golden seal can help replace the need for antibiotics. Plenty of pre/probiotics on top of the 11 in one e.g. Vetark 'sprinkle' are found to help with digestive issues.


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