# Breeding an RR



## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Is there anyway to get the red colouring from a recessive red to show up mixed with a colour other than white?

For example red, white and black mottling? 

Probably not right?


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## 12Ka-6 (Sep 4, 2012)

Almond would be a good colour mutation to use with RR or any colour infact to get something like the colour you are after.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Lovely bird!  I forgot about almonds.

Any idea what it might be like with a toy stencil?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Toy stencil needs multiple genes to express, at least one of which is recessive. You can breed recessive reds with white bars, but that would be a large project with many years of breeding and selection. Not recommended for newbies  

I understand why you like Toy Stencil though, it is probably the prettiest of the mutations, in my opinion, but breeding them from an outcross is daunting (even for the experts) and can get very expensive, since you have to breed MANY birds in the F2 generation. And you have too feed them all, or get rid of them somehow. Since no-one would want to buy pavement specials, you might have to cull your extra birds, which is something I personally just cannot do.

I think almond would be more rewarding for your first try. From a good quality almond x RR you could breed blues, almonds and possibly even recessive reds and de-roys.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

ooh definitely not culling any birds 

so almond will visibly mix with the red? 

on another note, if I get a toy spread and breed with a RR bird does that mean that the young will be sometimes RR and sometimes toy spread?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

would the pattern of something like a Lahore mix well with and RR bird? ( I LOVE Lahore birds)


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

You like juggling ideas! I don't know how big your bird is, but Lahores are huge, too much of a size difference between male and female could cause problems.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

rudolph.est said:


> You like juggling ideas! I don't know how big your bird is, but Lahores are huge, too much of a size difference between male and female could cause problems.


Well I'm only just setting up! The more ideas I juggle the happier I will be with my decision  I know I won't be able to keep up the space with unplanned, spur of the moment buys! (As much as I get tempted to do just that!)

Georgie is HUGE too!! I used to have 3 pigeons in the same dove cot that looks like it will MAX hold georgie and his mate.

Plus I had plywood dividers in with little doors to create a 'safe' back compartment. My other pigeons loved it and nested back there (in 1/4th the area of the cot.

First thing I did when I got geogie is rip all that out, because he didn't fit in 1/2 of the cot without hitting his tale on the compartments!

What problems does it cause? With the babies or with the pair? 

What would be a 'safe' size difference?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

If the male is very small compared to the female, he might have trouble mating with her which can result in infertile eggs. She might also not be interested in a small male (though that is less likely depending on the breed). If the chicks end up being very small compared to the size of the egg, they could have trouble hatching or die in the shell.

If the cock is very large compared to the hen, he could hurt her when mating. The eggs will be very small, and the chicks may grow too large to fit properly and die in the shell.

An aggressive bird could damage / kill a smaller bird very easily. Aggression is usually not a problem, but some breeds are more temperate than others...

It is hard to day what a 'safe' size difference is (I've never actually tried to breed a Runt to a Figurita). I'd say there shouldn't be a difference of more than about 50% in weight. I've successfully bred a homer cock (400-450 grams or so) to a small Archangel hen (she must weigh about 250-300 grams) without any difficulty at all, though the babies did look like they could almost squash their mother (when she fed them) by the time they were about 2 weeks old!


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

rudolph.est said:


> If the male is very small compared to the female, he might have trouble mating with her which can result in infertile eggs. She might also not be interested in a small male (though that is less likely depending on the breed). If the chicks end up being very small compared to the size of the egg, they could have trouble hatching or die in the shell.
> 
> If the cock is very large compared to the hen, he could hurt her when mating. The eggs will be very small, and the chicks may grow too large to fit properly and die in the shell.
> 
> ...


hmm i guess I'll have to weigh him sometime, and measure him.

So a largish bird (not runt size though, I heard they can be up to 2kg!!!!, He's def under 1kg, I'll try weigh him) with a normal sized pigeon should be ok?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> hmm i guess I'll have to weigh him sometime, and measure him.


A good idea maybe ... What breed is he?



LisaNewTumbler said:


> So a largish bird (not runt size though, I heard they can be up to 2kg!!!!, He's def under 1kg, I'll try weigh him) with a normal sized pigeon should be ok?


Think_* similarly sized*_ pigeon!

What exactly is a 'normal sized' pigeon? I've bread homers since I was a kid, and in my mind is the average! My friend who breeds tumblers and nuns think my birds are enormous. The largest homer I ever owned must have weighed close to 700g ... He was so big I held him in the arm like a chicken. On the opposite end, my small archangel hen was so small she about the same size as a large ring-neck dove.

Also, keep in mind that out-crosses sometimes are larger than either parent due to hybrid vigour.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

He's a rescue. I was told he was a tumbler but have not been able to fly him yet so have no idea if that is true. (plus his wings were clipped). When I posted here asking what he might be I was told if he is a tumbler he is definitely some kind of king cross.

I just weighed him (bit awkward). Somewhere between 500 and 600g

He's 4.75 inches from shoulder to shoulder, and 13 inches from breast to the tip of his tale.

I think normal as in wild size....I was going to say racer size but definitely not your 700g racer size!


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