# First posting , from Canada, please help



## JoAnne Guille

What a white Java Dove was doing out in the country in Southwestern Ontario (Canada) I'll never know but when I found her this morning something had completely torn her wing off. I have nursed many birds back to heath in my life but I need advice with this one. My husband will absolutely not here of an avian vet's assistance, we can't afford it so please try to look past that obvious solution. It's been five days since I began treating her since. I shall list what I have done and am doing. 

1 WOUND DRESSING... Original washing was done with an antiseptic solution...since then I have soaked the gauze with sterile water and Vitamin C to loosen it (so it doesn't stick to the wound) while changing the dressing which I have do 3 times a day.) I then cover her face and spray the wound with an antibacterial first aid spray containing an anesthetic (20% benzocaine) and then apply a new gauze covered with antibiotic ointment (Polymyxin B Sulfate, Bactracin Zinc and Gramicidin) and the contents of 2 Vitamin E capsules. I am immobilizing her with a tensor bandage wrapped over the gauze and her other wing with her feet free, snug but not tight. Although during the day I mosify the bandage to allow her one wing and feet out which she obviously prefers.

2 FEEDING... With an syringe I am giving her a loose mash consisting of cornmeal, oatmeal, cream of wheat, peanut butter, sterile water, a drop of bird Vitamins, a few drops of Vitamin E and Vitamin C along with a tiny amount of an antibiotic (my teenagers take it to control acne...Novo-Minocycline).

She seems to be doing very well in that she is alert in between naps during the day and sleeps well at night and so far has shown no sign of infection. What particularly troubles me is that the wing bone was not completely severed. There is still a section about 1 inch long and of course the marrow is exposed. I know that dogs and people live as amputees but is there any hope for "Petunia"? What more can I do...please answer me...Thankyou...JoAnne.


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## Lovebirds

Jo Anne, I have no idea what to tell you. I'm posting to your thread so that it looks like there's a new posting and hopefully someone will see it. For what ever reason, it didn't appear as a new post to me so maybe no one else has seen it either. There are people on here that can and will help you. Just hang in there and good luck...


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## Lovebirds

Is there any way to get pictures of the injury? When someone does come on to help, they may ask for some.


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## Skyeking

Thank you for helping this injured dove.

I forwarded an e-mail to Cynthia, hoping she can help. She was on earlier.


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## Feefo

Hi JoAnne,

Pigeons and no doubt doves adapt to being amputees. The immediate danger was that she could have died of shock and blood loss and she seems to have got through that. Keep her warm (on a heat pad even if the weather is hot) and hydrated.

I think that you are right to worry about the exposed bone, there is the danger of infection there and ideally it should be filed down and the skin brought over it to protect it. I can't see how that could be done without the vet's help, though.

I had a pigeon that lost a foot and had a piece of bone sticking out, the vet said that sometimes it necrotises and crumbles and no treatment is necessary, but I don't know how to establish if this has happened.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

I have texted Helen. She assisted Laura in an operation to file down and tuck in a protruding piece of bone in a pigeon I had rescued so has first hand experience.

Cynthia


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## JoAnne Guille

*EMERGENCY!!!(from Canada)*

I don't know how to create a new post so I've just hit the new thread button please anyone, read my first new thread entitled "fFrst posting, from Canada, please help" to understand what is going on. I have just taken a digital photo of Petunia's injury and all of the shots were a bit blurry, but of course I couldn't tell until it was transfered to the computer. Petunia is bandaged back up now so I won't get another chance for a photo until later this evening when I change her dressing again. This is the best shot I've got. For anyone viewing please do check out my first thread so that you will know what I am doing so far for treatment...thankyou thankyou...JO
AGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!! i JUST TRIED TO ATTACH THE PHOTO AND THE ATTACHMENT MANAGER IS TELLING ME IT IS TOO LARGE A FILE. JPG's are only allowed up to 100KBs and the photo is 144KB....ANY IDEAS?..ANYONE? pLEEEESE!!!


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## John_D

if you send me the pic I can reduce it and post it

[email protected]

John


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

Outside of sending the photo to John, perhaps the easiest way to go, you can do it youself with the Microsoft Paint program that comes with Windows to reduce the photo down. Although not the program I use, it is simple and can be found by going to Start>All Programs>Accessories>Paint.

Open Paint, open the file, chose Image from the menu bar, select Stretch/Skew (although there may be other ways to also reduce). It will show the horizontal and vertical at 100%, just change this to 80% in both, then hit save, this should be enough to get the photo below 100 Kb. Check the file and see if the size is under 100 Kb, if not just do the same procedure again to reduce it a little more until you get the size you want.

I hope this helps and thanks for looking after this bird and good luck with him.

Ron


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## pdpbison

Hi JAG, 


Sounds like you are doing a truely excellent job here with this Dove...!


The 'bone' issue, if need be, could be resolved sometime soon, if someone here could discover some experienced hands in your area who could perform a simple enough operation with your assistance, to remove what is not necessary and to suture up the skin to enclose a suitable 
shaped-to-order rounded 'end' so all may heal up well and be snug and neat.

Possibly too, you could make some inquirys to determine if a aympathetic avian Vet might be willing to do this with you, and for no fees. 

Such Vets exist, and one must be a good dective, and or lucky, to find them!

I would caution you however to NOT permit the use of any anaesthesia for the proceedure...as this would very very likely kill the Dove in itself.

If you are talented at holding Birds, she may be held gently while the proceedure is done by the Vet or other practioner...and if done nicely, no anaesthetic will be needed for the proceedure to proceed well.


For now, I would skip the Peanut Butter in her diet, and instead, simply use a little fresh, New Bottle, of nice hi-grade Olive Oil. Absolutely do not use that 'last' inch or so of some 'oil' which has been in the pantry for years, as sadly, so many people seem to do even though I am always quite clear about useinf ONLY a "New", bought for this occasion, small Bottle of nice quality Olive Oil.

Old Oils like everyone has sitting around, destroy Vitamines and interfere with Vitamine and Mineral assimilation, as well as potentially making the Bird sick in their own right.


Peanut Butter can clog them, and is not worth the risk.


Now, have you any opinion as regard this Doves age?

Can you submit or post some images?

If this is appearently an adult, you could provide some nice small Bird Seeds, Canary seeds or Finch Seed mix, for her to peck at in private, if she likes...

Doves of course ( at least the ones I get, ) can be quite shy and sensitive, and sometimes will not eat unless no one is around to see it.

And often, even seriously injured ones, will elect to start eating after a few days of rest and care and or tube feeds...so...give it a try if you are not already...

What do her poops look like? and roughly how many in a day?


Best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## JoAnne Guille

*Petunia's injury*

Thankyou so much for the advice so far...Phil I'll try but I'm out in the country and I can't even find a decent vet for my dogs let alone a vet who specializes in birds. Our local vet is an "assasin" and everyone else I have tried in the radius of 50 ks (and more) want a small fortune just for looking at the dogs. Thankyou for the advice about the peanut butter...I've got fresh olive oil (*just bought it last week) so I'll put some of that in. She is eating on her own (she's getting a budgie seed mix) and drinking water. she poops ..gee I dunno...I clean her cage about 4 times a day, don't want her stepping in anything... to venture a guess I would say she has maybe 10-12 droppings a day, I'll keep tabs after this. They look fairly normal (I've always had a bird of some type, usually a member of the parrot family and I have a lovebird now)They are a little looser than normal but I imagine this is from the amount of "gruel" I'm pumping into her. I'm attaching a photo of her injury....do I have any hope of the skin naturally growing over the bone showing since it is so close to her shoulder?


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## JoAnne Guille

*I've got the picture!*

Thankyou John for your kind offer, and thankyou jazaroo for your instructions. I've got the picture posted on the first thread would everyone please look at it?....am I being a thread hog? Shall I end one thread and just stay with the other..if so which one??? Too many questions.......I relaly don't think I'm going to have much luck finding a sympathetic vet around her, or even far from here. I can't even find a decent vet for my dogs. Do you think I might have any luck hoping that the skin might grow around the bone natually since it is so close to the shoulder?


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Joanne, 

I've merged your two threads together into this one. I am sorrry but I don't have any advice to give you. I've looked at the picture and that is a nasty looking wound. Where exactly are you located?


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Joanne, I am so sad about this little fellow and hope something can be done to help him.

We have a member, Pidgey, who can work wonders with things of this nature and I have sent him a private message to alert him about your problem. I don't know if he will check in tonight but hope so.


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

Yes, hopefully Pidgey or one of the other more experienced members will be along to offer you assistance with this nasty looking wound.

Do you have any antibiotics at home, such a Amoxicillan or Cipro, or have a friend or relative that does, as this information will help with putting together a plan for this bird.

Ron


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## Pidgey

Well, it's just plain amazing that the bird didn't bleed to death. That sure is a weird wound. It'd be real nice if we could get the skin from around the sides to seal over the wound itself. There are good reasons for doing that but usually the primary one is preventing tissue death due to desiccation (drying out). That can also cause bacterial infections that eventually kill the bird as they're harder to eradicate in necrotic tissue.

In real terms, how large is the opening? It's a little bit hard to tell due to all the greasy stuff. Incidentally, the body will have already begun reorganizing the tissue to form a layer of scar tissue and, given the time since the initial wound, should be well under way doing that. It's actually the biggest detriment to closure at this point.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Here's a link to a thread about a bird that I've still got that had a wound that was actually worse than that when you consider the state of necrosis and infection. In scope, it was greater, but in ultimate consequence it was not owing to the fact that the bird can fly and is fully functional (you couldn't tell the injury ever occurred) today. But, in the primary presentation, the wound was every bit as large and more complicated:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

If you were to try and pull the edges of skin together, you'd find that they're too anchored to their underlying tissues to pull that way. That's because of a type of connective tissue called "fascia". Skin itself is actually fairly elastic but in order to pull it together in a wound like this, you have to disconnect that underlying fascia so that it'll stretch where you need it to go. In such a case, the normal surgical technique is to insert closed scissors flatwise between the skin and underlying tissues (muscles in this case) and then open them. This is usually done at several points around such a wound to detach the skin all the way around so that it can be stretched across the gap and sutured. 

Fascia isn't very strong, doesn't have nerves and has a rather poor blood supply. As such, it doesn't bleed much at all and it doesn't bother the bird noticeably to do this. It is, however, nice to have the right kind of scissors (short, with rounded points) and it's important to sterilize them well before you do it, too. The sensationalized disease "necrotizing fasciitis" (flesh eating bacteria) is a bacterial infection of the fascia that can be caused by a number of bacteria. It's actually so bad because of the lack of adequate blood supply and, therefore, is a backwater area that's prone to infection due to the lack of immune cell availability (not enough cops). This isn't a problem that birds typically have, by the way, but it's still imperative to clean and sterilize your instruments before you start. 

As to suturing, you can use plain cotton thread. Just don't tie it too tight and leave tails that can help you find them to remove them later. Pigeons usually seal off a lot faster than humans although in this case you literally may have to open it up and debride the wound a few times before it decides to allow itself to seal. It's hard to say. It's more of a nuisance than anything, though.

It would be real nice to get the bird on a Cephalexin (like Keflex) and to have a quinolone (like Enrofloxacin or "Baytril") as a standby. However, it's possible for the bird to make it through without, it's just riskier. If they start to go downhill, it can go pretty fast.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

Before I "say" anything...I just recieved this e-mail regarding "Petunia". While I was frantically searching the internet last Monday night I sent the same e-mail as in my original posting to "Pigeon Talk" to "[email protected]"
This is a copy and paste.

With a pair of sharp scissors or shears cut off the remaining exposed bone. No need for anaesthetic. Then continue with your antiseptic treatment as you described. Continue with your antibiotic, but infection is not likely due to the birds high body temperature. Your feeding etc is fine. Keep the animal in a warm environment.
David C.Taylor BVMS,FRCVS. Veterinarian of the International Zoo Veterinary Group.

O.K. What do you think? Gives me the willies just thinking about it..I will do it but "Good Lord!!" are you sure? won't she start to bleed again? 

The wound is large...her wing is gone....it looks just like a chicken wing broken and ripped off rather than dislocating the joint of the shoulder and slicing the skin with a knife as in prepairing a chicken for frying...WHICH I may never do again as long as I live!!!!!

I have no way to gauge this but I think she is a yound bird. After owning birds most of my life she has that rather "juvinial" look in her eye and although she was obviously hungry and lost (I reiterate..what are the odds of her winding up on a country dirt road out in the middle of nowhere) her body proportions to me suggest that she is just gangaly, like a teenage child.

I am located between Glencoe and Appin the largest "Town" near me is Strathroy....The largest city (an hour away) is London. I'm near the bottom of the map of Ontario, about 20 minutes away from Lake Erie.

I'm going to sit anxiousley at this computer after posting this and pray for some anserws..thankyou so much.. Holy cow Pidgey...I'll have something to do alright I'll read all the threads relating to the two sites you listed...Hey where are you?.wanna skip up to Canada with a sharp pair of scissors..I'll do it if that is the vote, but I will be purchasing a new pair of scissors and sterilizing(spelling?) them. Any particular type?


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## Pidgey

Well, bear in mind that she's already gone several days like this so it's not as critical as the panic that usually sets in when you've just found a bird in this condition.

Anyhow, yes, the email is generally right about clipping the bone off. The bird's not going to feel or care overmuch at this point. I'm having a hard time making out the bone in the picture though. The open wound with no skin covering is the worst part to me but, as I said, the bird can actually heal from that on its own with only some risk.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Scissors? Ideally like these:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=124232&postcount=176

...but there are often small, blunt-tipped scissors in personal grooming kits (might be for trimming nose and ear hair, don't know) that would work in a pinch. 

You can sterilize with alcohol, a chlorine-type bleach, an open flame... that kind of thing.

Gotta' gota' bed so goodbye for now!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi JAG, 



This looks to me to be a late juvenile aor barely adult Dove also.


I will say she looks very very "good", especially for having experienced so terrible an injury.

Now, unless you happen to be able say, to locate a Surgeon to help you with this, who otherwise would be doing people-surgery things, it may just fall to you to perform the proceedure, and overall, while I myself have not done this kind of thing, my appreciation is that with Pidgey's guidance, and your courage, it may be done nicely, and well, and will benifit the Dove of course, immensely.


Now, it is hard for me to really 'see' the injury very well in the image.

But, if you can determine how much the surrounding skin may be gently pulled toward the end of the projecting bone, you can get some idea of just 'where' the bone will need to be cut off, for the skin to make the reach easily to be sutured neatly around it's end.

The sooner you can organise and conclude this proceedure, the better it will be for the Dove.

I myself would consider to make sure that the end of the Bone, once it is cut off, is at least somewhat rounded or free of sharp aspects anyway.

Steralize the Scizzors of course as mentioned previously...steralize the Needle and Thread by Boiling for twenty minutes...


Figure to scrub your Hands very very well with Soap and Water and lots of friction, useing a Brush to get into all the crevaces and nail areas and so on.

Have everything organized and layed out, and do a few pretend rehersals of proceedures where you sequentailly reherse the steps and sequences from start to finish, and have your assistant of course participate since they will be crucial in holding the Dove in the best possible way for you to do what you need to conveniently...so...do some rehersals JUST on that part first, of them getting the method of holding her down pat...then graduate to rehersing the whole.


Have some one help you by their holding her gently in an upright position if possible. She can be held by your assistant, gently against your assistant's chest even if such stability is needed...with her back against their chest in effect, tilted slightly so the Wing area is accessable...and with care so that no pressure is made against her Crop. A cupped Hand gently surrounding her Head, will be the best also. And or in addition, a soft Toe-end of a child's sock may be cut off to fit over her head as a kind of 'hood' so she may not see out.


A Bird who can 'see' while being held, is a Bird who will be tempted to figdet!


So, start gathering, prepareing, and Pidgey I hope will be back soon, and I will also, for whatever my input is worth, to support you in the endevor.


Till next...

Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo

Hi JoAnne,

IMO it would be a good idea to pluck the feathers immediately surrounding the wound and pack the wound with Hydrogel as described in this Avian Wound Management site:

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html#

In the UK the gel we use is called Intrasite, I expect it will have a different name in Canada. That will keep the wound in a moist condition so that necrotic materials can be removed by the body's natural processes or by flushing with sterile saline. The wound should be lavaged with sterile saline or Lactated Ringers every day or every other day, taking care not to damage 

When the wound starts to granulate the dead tissue and debris will be conglomerated into a solid mass that can be picked away with forceps every 2 or three days until the growth of new tissue eventually fills the wound cavity.


Cynthia


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## Pidgey

I was sort of assuming the unavailability of materials like that seeing as how this one's out in the boondocks. Anyhow, it looks to me like the bones that are showing are the structural members of the shoulder rather than a protruding humerus fragment--kinda' hard to tell.

Anyhow, Joanne, could you go to this webpage, compare the bone structures to Petunia and then identify the exposed bone that you're looking seeing:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

If the bone you're referring to is actually a shard of the humerus then, yes, that ought to come off but if it's a piece of scapula or coracoid, then we just need to get it covered up. And if those structural members are exposed, by the way, then we really do need to get the skin over them as new tissue will not granulate over them. Scar tissue won't form over a bone although the bone will seal off inside but this is getting a little too close to home (entry to the thoracic cavity) for that to be considered a viable option here.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Part of the reason for that being that such scar tissue is usually a very thin membrane that won't generate feathers. As such, if this skins over with that stuff, it'll always be a cold spot (since you're in Canada that's a factor) and also subject to later injuries a bit too easily to my way of thinking. I'd rather have genuine feather-growing skin over that to help pad it from any bumps. It depends on the bird but they can fall on their side a lot, not realizing that their flying days are over and with only one wing, that's what's likely to happen to Petunia.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Done*

I spent almost 2 hours on the phone this morning. No one would help me. The only "avian" vet I found was in North London and after talking to her "nurse" who kept running back and forth to the doctor I was left with only the affermation that long are the days past when those who entered into the field of veteranary care truley cared for animals. Most who label themselves "doctor" these days care only for money. I was quoted somewhere between 800 and 1000 dollars with no garantee and an insistance that they use an anastetic. One woman I verbally encountered (who worked with birds of prey) beratted me for not putting Petunia "down". "How will she keep herself warm in the winter?". (I assume as I and the rest of our family do with a wood furnace .) Idiot. I couldn't seem to get it through her head that she was a white dove. Not a bird of prey but one of those preyed upon.

And so.....
My husband held Petunia while I performed the "operation"......I was not comfortable using any sort of scissors and chose instead Dog nail clippers. The instrument fits over the nail (bone) and upon squeezing the handle a blade slides down to cut. I boiled everything including the needle and cotton thread for 20 minutes and then dosed everything with Dettol. Lifting the bone (which, thankyou Pidgey, which was a peice of the humerus,) with sterile tweezers I fit the apperatus over the bone sliding it as close to the flesh as I could. The cut was clean and quick. I gave her four stiches. In between I kept spraying the area with an anti-bacterial First Aid spay with 20% benzocaine to numb the area. When I was finished I poured hydrgen perozide over the area profusley and then bandaged her with her usual dressing. (antibiothic ointment liberally appled with the contents of 3 vitamin E capsules.)
Petunia came through like a little trooper. She is in her cage now propped up. I have force fed her a little liquid with antibiotic and vitamins. She hurts something terrible now. What can I give her?....a few scraping of Tylenol???? I took a qick digital of the stiches...........My God I hope I never have to do anything like that again! ........JO

P.S. Oh man another crappy picture. I could not see how anymore stiches would do any good and niether could my husband. This "shot' looks like ther is a gap but there isn't.


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

You seem to being well with no help from those you would think would want to be helpful.

Please, do not give any Tylenol to your little one, birds do not tolerate it well and it can be toxic, even in small amounts. The ideal analgesic would be a drug called Metacam, but you would need it to be prescribed by one of those unhelpful vets. I know our local avian vets will not prescribe it without seeing the bird first.

I know ASA can be used, although I have not done so before, please do a search of this site on "Aspirin" here are few threads talking about it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14659&highlight=aspirin

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15777&highlight=aspirin

Before giving this bird anything for pain, I would wait until Pidgey, or one of the other more experienced members advises on doing this.

One quick question, you say you are administering antibiotics, what kind are you using and at what dose?

All the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey

Well, I don't know that the bird is in as much pain as you might think. For instance, a parrot once caught its leg in a hanging toy and chewed it off (the leg) within 30 minutes of the last time the owner saw the bird so he did it pretty fast. One reeeeeeeeally has to wonder sometimes.

Anyhow, we generally don't like to give pain medications with wounds because the birds have a nasty tendency to overdo it if they're on pain meds. Wounds in general go hand in hand with hemorrhages and blood-thinning AND/OR painkilling agents are just a bad idea. Sometimes, pain effectively immobilizes a bird that, quite frankly, needs to stay still for awhile.

Therefore, when we do use painkillers, it's usually because we want to treat some swelling that's interfering with antibiotic action. At least, that's about the only use I have for the stuff. I would not in this case.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Personally, I'm not going to condemn a vet for their charges to do the life's work that they went to school (and paid a lot of money for) and then bought into (or got a heckuva' loan for) a practice (I've got a fair amount of the stuff and I KNOW it costs money). If there's one thing for certain, it's that there are far and away more dying victims out there than you can treat if you could stay awake 24/7 and didn't have to stop and eat. The better you get at it and the more you do, the more the word gets out and the more people bring to you. Many vets go through a process of doing pro-bono work and then have to come to grips with the economics of it. Some manage to do a little more, some a little less and some just give up on it altogether. For wild birds, it's usually governed by laws that survivors who cannot viably be returned to the wild must be put down. As far as "pest" birds go, it's usually not even a question. If we could save every life and prevent death, then it would very soon get to be where the world would be a mile deep in a sea of living flesh and there wouldn't be any room for more young'uns.

Those are (some of) the facts of life with respect to vets and pigeons.

Anyhow, it would be a real good idea to have some antibiotics on hand for the next month. I also have to warn you that you might very well have to open the wound and debride it from time to time. Generally, if a wound has been open for more than 12 hours, it starts complicating healing. The signs that you're really watching for will be whether the edges that are now sutured together maintain the look of a couple of lips pressed together but not fusing. They may even pull back some between the sutures. Just give it about five days and see what it looks like then.

You also pumped a bunch of stuff in there that's foreign material. In point of fact, most topical antibiotics (Neo- or poly- Sporin types; Hydrogen Peroxide; etc.) actually slow healing. They're wonderful for what they do, but they really do interfere with healing as well. Anyhow, we're just going to have to wait and see. It'll be immaterial if we have to go back in and debride a few times anyhow.

Another sign that the area is finally truly underway in the healing process is that the local feathers will start regrowing. That's when you REALLY know that the worst is over.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

It'd probably be a good idea at this point if you list everything that's going into the bird and also what you have on hand by way of antibiotics.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*O.K. no pain killers then*

Hump! and I thought Parrots were smart!? Very Well I shan't give any pain meds to Petunia. She had me really worried for a while there as she seemed to really be suffering. Now she is dozing off and on. Poor little thing...man what a trooper. Not even a request for a leather belt to bite on or a couple of slugs of whiskey (like they do in the movies) before the op. I feed her a few minutes ago. I refrained from doing so for 2 1/2 hrs after the op. but I wanted to get some nourishment into her as well as her meds. I am giving her a member of the tetracycline . A 100 mg. capsule lats me 21/2 days so that's 20 mg./day in five divided doses. Petunia has had no sign of diarrhea so I assume i am not o.ding her.

I didn't mean to come down so hard on vets in general. Iwas just upset with my mornings attempts to get some help. My family and I moved from Vancouver Island to Southwestern Ontaario just over 2 years ago. (I missed the sunshine...it rains and is grey an unbelevable amount on the west coast). We had an excellent vet out there but I've had nothing but frustration out here. 

Poor Petunia...I keep going over to her cage and if she is sleeping I freak out and think she's dead so I lean over and ask if she is alright. Then she opens her eyes and I'm reassured so I tell her to go back to sleep......just like a real hospital. Wake the patient to give them sleeping meds.


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## Reti

You did an amazing job with Petunia. Not too many people would be able to do what you did.
I hope she is on her way to recovery now.


Reti


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

I don't know whether tetracycline would be the first drug of choice for this kind of injury. 

We around here really on Pidgey a lot and I am going to defer to him on this. I do have have Keflex, Cipro and Amoxicillan if you do not have these or have access to them. I can send you any one of these, or a combination, if it is recommended and you would like.

Ron


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## Pidgey

Actually, it's usually a bad sign if they've got their eyes closed under a lot of circumstances. They sleep like that more when they're young and feel extremely safe (sometimes older birds do that, too) but more often they keep their eyes open.

As to the antibiotic, which tetracycline is it? I've got a pretty wicked formulary at the house although when you're stuck, there are a few online like this one:

http://zcog.org/zcog frames/Avian Drugs/Avian Drugs.htm

How much do you think Petunia weighs?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Well, the wound looked fairly clean. Pierpont was a horrible mess complete with honest-to-god mud packed in under her skin. Now, THERE is a pigeon with an immune system fit for a member of the Special Forces in any country's armed services. Anyhow, I walked that bird through with a Baytril/Keflex and Baytril/Metronidazole combos.

We've no idea what severed the limb in the first place, actually, do we? It seems that JoAnne would have seen the limb laying near since the bird couldn't go very far without it. If it got knocked off by an impact, it might not have bled as much versus having been cut cleanly off by an impact with a sharp piece of barn tin. I suppose that an impact with a passing auto might have ripped it off as well and then the evidence might still be on the grill of the car.

Oh, well, what's done's done. Sometimes the guess of which antibiotic to use is based on what germs the wound may have been exposed to when it occurred. Since this one's a mystery, the sky is the limit. Goodness knows the stuff that's been put on in the interim will probably have killed out just about everything. Therefore, the thing that most needs to be done is keeping the bird wanting to live and love and attention can be a lifesaver there.

Incidentally, greasy ointments do have a tendency to matte feathers in such a way as to reduce their insulating power. As such, it's often a good idea to supplement with heat in these cases (it goes against the normal thought but it's the truth).

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi JAG,



Well, my gosh...good going...!

Wow...!



Now, what are you feeding her, and how are you feeding her?

Previous to today's proceedure, what was her feeding situation?



Similarly, what has there been for poops, so far, since you have had her?




Anyway, unless she was bruised in being held for the proceedure...she would likely be feeling better now than previous, and pain wise, certainly no worse than previous.

Birds must not be held with force to effect an immobility, but rather, they must be held in particular ways where one can in effect immobalise them with really almost no pressure against thier bodys at all. This takes a little practice, but the instinct or useing force to make them still, only too easily results in too much force being used...so...she might be feeling more pain and bruising from the being held, especially if held down 'on' a table or something, ( rather then gently, with a cupped hand over her head, with her back against the assistant's chest) than from the proceedure proper.




But her nourishment will be very important now, so let us know about her poops so far ( how many a day, what they look like) and what you have been feeding her, and how have you been feeding her...


She is likely not to have much of an appetite for now, but you never know...but at some point she will, and will likely be ravenous.



Pidgey, 

Would there be any point in a fast re-open of the sutures, and do a few tepid sterile Saline irrigations of the interior of the wound? some debrideing with a Q-Tip dipped in saline? In a good strong light? Then close with the sutures again? The same 'holes' presently sutured of course could be used again...with merely new Thread...

Straight Peroxide can be rather caustic on raw unprotected tissues, unless it is quite diluted...and I am wondering about whatever residual foreign matter also, might not have been sluiced or flushed or Q-tipped out of there...

We forgot to discuss this earlier, and now that it comes to mind, it is likely not a problem were it to be done now...

Whatchathink?

Best wishes Petunia and JAG and assistant!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen

JoAnne,

You've gone above and beyond here and done a remarkable job! Best wishes that the worst is over now and that your bird will make a good recovery.

Linda


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## pdpbison

Hi JAG, 


Yes, make sure she is warm and out of any drafts or Air conditionins drafts...

And let us know on the appetite/feeding/poops questions...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

pdpbison said:


> Pidgey,
> 
> Would there be any point in a fast re-open of the sutures, and do a few tepid sterile Saline irrigations of the interior of the wound? some debrideing with a Q-Tip dipped in saline? In a good strong light? Then close with the sutures again? The same 'holes' presently sutured of course could be used again...with merely new Thread...
> 
> Straight Peroxide can be rather caustic on raw unprotected tissues, unless it is quite diluted...and I am wondering about whatever residual foreign matter also, might not have been sluiced or flushed or Q-tipped out of there...
> 
> We forgot to discuss this earlier, and now that it comes to mind, it is likely not a problem were it to be done now...
> 
> Whatchathink?


I'll tell you what methinks:

the most likely scenario is that the open tissues of the wound will have begun to generate a new tissue organization that would be the bed for a scar tissue layer. The body will have assumed that this was the only reasonable thing to do in all this time since it happened. I think that the wound has been generously slathered with antibiotic ointment in the interim and that it was probably all too well disinfected at the point of closure.

With Pierpont, I had three different wounds to deal with and the crop portion wasn't the worst of it--the tracking abscess hole into the chest was. That had a complicated beginning but the entire wound was one horrifically infected, necrotic mass to start off with. The most important means of stopping its advance into the bird was the copious use of systemic antibiotics IN the bird to fight it on the front that the topicals couldn't reach.

What a bird's body attempts to do with a nidus of infection is to wall it off by making an ossified rock out of it. Actually, we all do to some extent. For instance, in certain forms of pneumonia, the body starts calcifying pockets of infection that show up on X-Rays as "infiltrates" due to that calcium deposit. Under certain circumstances, we can win the battle and dissolve those infiltrates but a bird can't dissolve them--avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue.

At this point, it will depend on both how clean the wound was before closure as well as how far the tissue reorganization had progressed. If I were going to wash it out, I'd use plain water at this point but the likelihood is that it can wait for a few days. Pierpont would continuously form "boogers" in those areas that I had to remove every few days and I did an awful lot of washing that wasn't ever "the final wash". It took over a month but it could only be done as it happened.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

After a month or so, though, it will be over.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Forgot to mention*

Just reading what you wrote Phil reminded me that I forgot to say my husband cleaned the area prior to anything with a weak solution of Dettol in water. He removed any crusted blood and although he was very gentle it did start the wound bleeding again although not profusly, so I took it as a good thing on the basis that her own blood would wash out any "foreign solution" that we were using for cleansing pre/op. The hydrogen peroxide was only used after the wound was completly closed prior to my bandaging her. I will list what I'm dressing the wound and feeding her.

Dressing.....First I scrub my hands with dish detergent and a brush (I guess you can figure by now I've been freaked out about germs in regards to Petunia since I first found her) On a sterile gauze I liberally smear Polysporn(with a toothpick) I use the one with 3 antibacterial ingredients. Then I squeeze the contents of 2 400 IU Vitimin E caps. After unwrapping the tensor bandage (I cut the bandage down so that I only have enough to go around her body and under her good wing twice) I do not remove the old guaze at this point, rather I then soak the previous guaze with cotton pads soaked in very warm water. I had been using a small amount of Ascorbic Acid in the water but now I've switched to Dettol. I hold the cottton pads on until they cool down, Petunia always seems to enjoy this, I'm sure the heat feel good. I also want to ensure that when the old gauze is removed it does not stick to the injury. I then spray the area with an antibacterial First Aid spray containing 20% benzocane to fight infection and offer some pain relief (for awhile anyway, her head by the way is covered for this) Then I apply the new guaze. Her dressing is changed 3 times a day.

Feeding. Although Petunia did not do so after the op. today (no wonder) she had up until then been peeking and eating budgie food and gravel and drinking on her own. I wanted her to have more nourishment so I have been prepairing and force feeding her a gruel. I use a little spoon to feed her after I open her beak with my other hand, someone else holds her. Most of the liquid from the gruel I draw off with a syringe and she is "fed" that at the end of the meal. Today's greul (and most days) was made of cornmeal, cream of wheat (not cooked) oatmeal, a few crumbs of whole wheat bread, bird vitamins, a drop of "fresh" olive oil (I had been using peanut butter but was advised to stop...too bad she seemed to eat the peanut butter batch better..by that I mean she dosen't fling her head around afterwards trying to chuck everything I'd gotten in her mouth) and an atibiotic. NOVO-MINOCYCLINE because It's what I have on hand. It is a member of the Tetracycline family. I've worked out (using a calculator this time) what I'm giving her per day which is approximatley 33 mgs. I'm just basing this on the amount of feedings for how long a 100 mg cap lasts me. My measurments are stricly eyeballing it on the back of a toothpick to get the same amount each time, it's all been by guess and by golly. She has never had diarrhea and that is usually (from what I've read) a good indicator as to O/D. Sometimes I put in a drop of Vitamin E and a tiny bit of Vitamin C to boost her bird vitamins but I only do this with one batch a day. I'm feeding her 5 times a day and as I said, prior to today she was also eating budgie food and drinking water on her own with these feedings.

By the way Ron, my husband, held Petunia aginst his chest and covered her head with his other hand during the procedure today.

As to what Petunias weight I have no Idea. I think she is skinny, her brestbone is sharp, she also has no tail feathers as well as only one wing. All of the feathers on her rump have been ripped out. I think something caught her, how she got away I can't imagine, or maybe something happened to chase the preditor away. I could also see two puncture marks above and below where her wing was ripped off. You can bet I gave those areas as much attention as the major wound! There was no wing lying around which strengths my belief that something "ran off" with what it had managed to rip off when it started to feed. W have a lot of ***** around here as well as cyotes. You can hear them in the bush starting just after sunset.

Petunias poops between 12-15 times a day, I said I was going to count them but I forgot to do so today. Most of them look normal. No Blood, no mucus, not runny. I say most of them because she has had a few "loose" ones this evening but I was blaming that on my being a little heavy handed with the olive oil yesterday in one of her mixes.

Ron thankyou for your kind offer. I see you're just up in Toronto...if pidgey says I should use something different then yes please. I'll contact you and give you my address and send you a cheque. So yes if such comes about the cheque "will be in the mail".
Well I guess that's about all of the details I can think of.....THANKYOU SO MUCH EVERYONE...........I have been frantic since Monday night and everything I did was just "fly by the seat of my pants" (exactly how did that expression come about anyway? how does one fly by the seat of ones pants?)..................I'm going to bed...it's been a hellofaday.............JO


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## pdpbison

Hi JoAnne, 



Ahhhhh...very good...on all counts...excellent...

You are a wonder!

Yes....this does sound like a predation scenario which had got interrupted maybe, from which she somehow, amazeingly, escaped and survived for you to find her.

Pasturella is one of the primary dangers bacteria-wise, form the teeth-mouths or claws sometimes, of preditors...

Her Shoulder injury, Wing being torn off, overall did look pretty clean in the image there, and possibly was less a danger to her infection-wise than the otherwise more discrete punctures on her rear area. Hence the importance of the Antibiotics particularly for her in her situation.

I have seen many quite serious non predation injurys heal up fine with no antibiotics other than a light topical application...

I have seen some Cat and Dog puncture Birds who got well and healed up fine with no antibiotics at all...who were wild or feral Birds I happenned to see or get for some other reason that were just about all healed up already when I got them, for me to note their adventures recently passed.

I have seen others of course, who within three days of being caught and bitten, die from systemic infections from the germs in the animal bite punctures for want of antibiotics.



Glad to hear ( or to be reminded, since it is so hot here my memory is about completely shot, ) that she was pecking and drinking nicely up to her proceedure today.

So, I would expect her to return to it soon, if not tomorrow day sometime.



I think we would like to see about twice as many poops as you mention being her 24 hour count...

I at least, would like to hear about there being around 25 or even 30 a-24-hour-day.


So, if you are not already, consider to place a fresh light color towell in her cage bottom each morning, and count the poops that way to tell for sure how many are being made in 24 hours.

This is the best indicator of how much chow they are getting, and how it is passing through.




Now, this seems like a Dove who is still rather young...and it may be, she was having a hard time finding enough to eat as it was...was maybe a little weakened from privation, and or at any rate, had not acquired the muscle mass and weight she should have had at this age...

This may have contributed to her having been compromised somehow for the predation scenario to have happenned at all, or may have had nothing to do with it...but...

Try this...

Moisten your finger tips in warm water, and instantly, from her front, from a little below her Eye level, reaching slowly, gently massage her Beak, and mostly at the base of her Beak...


And let us know if she responds to that with any tentative or inquisitive 'Nuzzleing'..if she at all Nuzzles your fingers with her Beak, even if she only does so for a moment.


She is of an age still, probably, where with some finesse in the invitation, she might be willing to eat like a Baby, and if so, it will be an easy way to both comfort her, boost her moralle, assure her even more, and also to get all the chow and nutrition into her anyone could wish for...and, to do so easily, too...much much more easily than trying to spoon it in..so...

Try that, and let us know...

If it seems that she is interested, I would gladly run you through the drill...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feather

JoAnne, 

You and your husband did a great job. 

Good Luck on the recovery of that very precious little bird.

Great Job Pigeon Talk People.

Feather


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

Sounds like you are doing a great job with this little one.

My one comment right now would be that the amount of 33 Mg. a day for the dosing of the Minocycline seems a little high. The link that Pidgey provided you for dose amounts is the one I use all the time for reference. Although Minocycline is not listed, it is dosed very similarly to Doxycycline. The dose called for is 8-12 Mg. BID (twice a day) per pound. I am guessing, based on the weight of the Dove I am currently looking after (150 Gm or about a 1/4 Lb), it's weight to be around the same. So based on this approximate weight the dose should be less than half of what you are currently administering. I would say about 5 mg BID for a total of 10 Mg a day would be good.

Others may comment as well, but that's what caught my eye.

Continued good luck with this bird.

Ron

_PS: What I usually suggest for dosing small amounts from capsules is that you take a capsule, 100 Mg in this case, and empty it out. Divide this equally in half and you now have two piles of 50 Mg. Now, divide one of these equally into 5 and you have the approximate daily dose for 5 days. Just give half twice a day._


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## Pidgey

Well, if Petunia hasn't died of infection by Pasteurella multocida by now then it's a fair bet that she's not going to. That's the one that they normally get from animal bites. Even a lick from a cat is capable of taking most small birds down within a matter of hours but pigeons do seem to be a little bit tougher. The Rx for that is usually something in the Penicillin family and Amoxicillin (which is actually a newer version of Ampicillin) is considered the best especially if it's blended with Clavulanic Acid (Clavamox and several other names).

The Minocycline is about like Doxycycline. You probably should back that one off to about 5 milligrams, twice per day. I'm assuming a lot of things including the weight of the bird (pretty small, isn't it?) but after looking at the formulary, you probably should get down to about that. The bird might feel a bit better about eating that way.

Yes, I'd still rather see about having some Keflex and Baytril on hand but you really don't need much--only about enough for 10 days at the outside. I wouldn't go crazy with "next-day-air" delivery at this point, though. If you send something, Jazaroo, make sure you include a Flagyl (whatever you've got) as well as something for at least a one-shot Coccidiosis treatment (do you have a wormer-in-a-pill?). There's no telling why this bird got caught in the first place. Maybe Petunia was too young (welcome to life, kid!) and maybe she was already sick with something else. Let's go ahead and get our bases covered here.

Thanks, everyone!

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

I am happy to send JoAnne whatever she needs. I will send her Cipro, Keflex, Metronidazole and Bactrim.

JoAnne if you PM me with your information, I will get the meds out to you.

Ron


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## Reti

That is so nice of you, Ron. It would be good if she had a broader spectrum antibiotic on hands, for just in case.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC

Just a thought. If you can possibly get a gram scale I would because I doubt this young dove even weighs 150 grams. My bet would be more like 100 to 120 grams and you don't want to overdose.

Congratulations on your courage to help this beautiful little bird.


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## JoAnne Guille

*Good Morning Everyone!*

Petunia looks so much better this morning...she is eating and drinking on her own and even preening herself...poor girl...she's all yellow from her greul feedings..the staining I'm sure is from the antibiotics. Which by the way I shall back way off of. Her poops are pretty loose this morning...could that be from the shock of yesterday's events..I'll back off on the gruel to. Maybe just three feedings a day and I'm going to try the nuzzling business. This is just a quick note...I've got to rush upstairs and get ready for the day...yeah I know shamefull. It's almost 11 and I'm still in my jammies..tsk tsk. I'll check back in later...Oh Jazzaro...I tried to send you a private message but the "powers that be" say you have to clear some space in you private message folder to recieve my note...I'll try again later...JO


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

Sorry about that, did some house cleaning, please try again.

Ron


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## JoAnne Guille

*continuing saga..*

Jazaroo I just got your message sent off...

Well never say never! This morning while I was changing petuniuas dressing and I saw that the bone was still showing........OH NO!..Weather the stiches pulled apart from her moving or I did lousey job (probably both) I had to do it again..out with the benzocane First Aid spray and more sterilizing everything. I couldn't bear to put her (or me..mostly me) through taking out the stiches I put in yeastereday so I just did two more drectly over the bone.. I kept sraying little shots of the first aid spray to numb and clean the area, then I opened a cap of vitamin E, poured the contents over the stiching and redressed it. 
Good Lord is this never going to end? My husband dosent understand how drawing the two peices of skin together over the site will cause new skin (or more like scar tissue) to form back over the injurey. I told him I'm just followng instrucitons and praying, because I guess I don't really understand either. Petunia was eating on her own this morning. She's just fluffed up now dozing, mind you we are having a thunderstorm right now and it's pretty dark and grim outside. I gave her a feed of gruel. I tried wetting my finger and putting it just under and beside her beak but she didn't respond. I'll keep trying. Mind you I'm sure she didn't feel like eating after another go with the needle and tread but I rammed it into her anyway and she's not stupid. She saw that egg cup (her feeding bowl) coming near her and I know she did because I saw her cock her eye towards it. Maybe her not responding to my touch was just her way of telling me to "stick it in your ear lady". I think she is pooping more than I thought since so far this morning she has had about 8 or 9 drops and it's just 1 p.m. here. They are loose though. I backed way off on the MINOCYLINE. She is only getting a very small amount by way of what is reccomended for her size. I swear to God I'll never eat chicken again. Just looking at the skin will make my hair stand on end and I think my hands are going to permanentley smell like Dettol.....JO


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## mr squeaks

Hi JAG...

Been following your thread and wish you, your husband and Petunia ALL THE BEST! You are all going through quite the ordeal!

Just know that WE are all behind you and send our support, hugs and healing lights!!  

Look forward to POSITIVE updates! Keep up the great work!


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## jazaroo

Got your message and the Meds are on their way.

Good to hear you cut back on the dose. The high dose of Minocycline is most likely the cause of Petunia's loose droppings.

Ron


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## pdpbison

Hi JAG,



Make sure she is warm and out of any drafts.


How are you keeping her?


Likely she will do fine self-feeding, once the meds are adjusted and so on.

If one is wishing to do the 'invitation', it is not a damp finger under the Beak...

It is two or three finger 'tips' gently massaging the root of the Beak or the whole Beak, as it were, from the front.

When being fed by their parents, the Dove or Pigeon inserts it's Beak into the throat of the parent...hence, if one offers a similar tactile experience, they will sometimes respond with iterest or amenibility to be fed.

In some cases, late juvenile or even adult Doves and Pigeons will elect to respond, and permit one to feed them in a similar way. Whe they do, if they had been non-eating otherwise, it can be a good way to get lots of chow into them easily, and also to cheer them up quite a bit.


Can you post some close up images of the sutured area?


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Well, their skin is kinda' funny when you stitch it up, especially in a case like this. If a wound just occurred or is just a few hours old, it's a real easy job suturing it back together and it seals up remarkably fast.

However, when one's been open for a lot longer (days) then funny stuff starts happening. Imagine a city where you have main arterials (expressways) as well as residential streets and everything in between; postal service; zoning; police coverage; the neighborhoods where the movers and shakers live as well as the neighborhoods where the laborers live... and so on. 

Some of what's happened to the bird is major (the loss of the limb) and the rest of it's relatively minor although it's the major thing right now--the current wound. The city just lost a big chunk and it's got to reorganize. And, on a much more microscopic level, the local neighborhoods at the wound site have been reorganizing. The layer that is essentially skin can be thought of as "the border" complete with border patrol, cops aplenty, etc. The body was in the middle of rezoning the area and retasking folks who normally had other jobs to do into what it thought was going to be their new jobs as border patrol. This is a complicated process but is quite well understood in the medical community. There are phrases like "healing by second intention" and "healing by third intention" that you could look up and read about.

I know the wound looked like normal flesh but that's not quite the case--if you'd opened up a bird like that in the first place, just about everything would be oozing blood over the entire surface but it's not anymore. So, it's not exactly organized like it should be now. That said, it might actually come to a point in a few days where you might be able to undo the stitches, open it up and there'll be some stuff in there that resembles a thin film of white cheese. If that's the case, then we'll just grasp it with tweezers (forceps) and draw it out. It might fragment and so we'll draw it out piece by piece if we have to and then we'll close it back up. I did that with Pierpont about 6 or 7 times. What finally happened was that the membrane layer finally formed and there were two flaps of skin that hung loosely on either side of a 3/4" wide scar. I left the stitches out that last time and the two flaps pulled inward (the scar tissue just started disappearing) and finally absorbed into all the area that they were intended to go in the first place. It took about a week.

That wound involved muscle and it had been that way for at least a week when I finally got the bird. There was also a lot of real-live, honest-to-god rot going on and that was something that had to be dealt with. As such, your bird might not have to go through that and I sincerely hope that it doesn't. However, be prepared if it does. And you can stop worrying so much and putting all that benzocaine on for stitching--they're only a light little sting. My vet didn't bother giving Pierpont anything when he did a heckuva' lot more work than that.

As to why the stitches seemed to recede? Well, that doesn't surprise me at all at this point. Pierpont's did several times. I think that's all because it's an old wound at this point. From here on out, just clean it with water and let the skin dry. Don't bother with any more ointments, oils or anything. The dryer the skin, the better.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Hi JoAnne,

You mentioned earlier that you were in contact with a vet on the bird hotline. Have you kept him informed of current developments? A qualified vet would have so much more experience than any of us about problems arising from surgery and it sounds pretty generous of him to offer advice as he has.

Seems a shame not to take advantage of his experience.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Helen is, fortunately, alive and well (I was worried when she didn't respond) but tied up at work and also unable to post forntechnical reasons.

These were her comments:

[I*]As far as I can see all that was needed has been done. I just worry that a small gap should have been left to allow infection to drain. In those circumstances I would expect an abscess to form which could track right across the body. BR gel or its equivalent would be advisable here and certainly Synulox for at least 2 weeks. Otherwise, a pretty good job done there.
Helen at Wild-Life-Line[/*I]

Synulox is the brand name here for what the rest of you call Clavamox.

Cynthia


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## maryjane

JoAnne, you are a wonder! What a super job you've done under such stressful and scary circumstances. I have told just about everyone I know about this story and have been doing continuous updates for them lol. We're all rooting for you and the little dove. It takes *tremendous *courage to do what you've done!!

Phil and Pidgey, I think you guys are my new heroes. What an arsenal of information and advice. I myself have stitched up a critter here and there (a few pigeons, a cat with a fishhook accident, a guinea pig and even an opossum once) when there were no other options available (i.e. no vets around to help, emergency situations) and don't I wish I'd known about this site at those times! Talk about flying by a wing and a prayer, pun intended.  It's certainly difficult and frightening when you have to do your best for an animal and don't really know what you're doing. JoAnne (and many others here) is lucky to have such good advice from you and the other members, and that little dove is sure lucky to have JoAnne! It's nice when something (like this forum) works as a well-oiled machine, in a way; everyone comes together to help out. Keep up the great work


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## Pidgey

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence, MaryJane, but I'm not going to have that "warm, fuzzy feeling" over this bird until feathers start regrowing over the original wound and that's going to be... awhile, I'm afraid. Goodness knows we've lost some very hard battles before and this is the kind that really draws you in emotionally. You just feel so sorry for the little dove and you want so badly to make it all right. It's all too easy to either make a mistake or find all of a sudden that you need some medication that can't be gotten over the weekend or whatever--it's just a very vulnerable time for awhile. One thing's for sure, though--we ARE trying! In for a penny, in for a pound.

Now, question for JoAnne: You said that you'd calculated the amount of Minocycline for little Petunia. The fact is that Minocycline is mentioned in the formulary (that I've got) but with limited references. Dosages for avian species can be all over the board for about all the drugs and there are a plethora of reasons. I'd be interested in how you came up with the number that you did. There were some references for Doxycycline (a very close relative) that were greater than the amount that I gave you but the grading on those references didn't have the smack of testing that the ones I selected did. However, the number I did give was, to some extent, somewhat of an educated guess based upon some extrapolation (I flipped a coin, euphemistically speaking).

The "Synulox" that Helen referred to via Cynthia is another form of the Amoxicillin/Clavulanic Acid (there's actually another active ingredient but it's rarely mentioned) combo that we've already discussed. It's used quite a bit although the stuff that Jazaroo is sending is some powerful juju, too.

What Helen says about leaving a gap open to drain is something that we will have to watch the wound line for. Personally, I rather doubt that it will knit together like it would have if it had been a fresh wound and I've stated that in roundabout ways. It's pretty hard to say at this point but I really am expecting you to have to open the wound in a few days to have to clean it out, as I've said. This may just turn into a lot of REAL WORK and you may come to the point of it finally becoming almost mundane instead of it being the heart-slamming trauma that it's been so far.

Anyhow, for a small discussion on how things heal, I found this. It's clinical, but using an online dictionary, anyone can manage through it and it explains the tissue reorganization that happens in cases like this better than I can:

http://education.vetmed.vt.edu/Curr...on/Histo-Path/IntroHistopath/Lab5/healing.htm

Of course, we're a little outside the norm here, but this is going to be a heckuva' learning experience.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Wow*

Thanks Pidgey...I haven't read the site you dropped the line for but I will after I send this. You asked me how I figured out how much antibiotic I was giving Petunia. A 100 mg. capsule would last me for around 12 or 13 feedings. ( Everything is around, sort of, kinda....) since I was (am) feeding Petunia 5 times a day I just divided 12 (or 13) into 100= 8.something or other (can't find a calculator) per feeding. Times 5 (meals a day)=40 mg.s per day (wow way too much) as far as dividing for each meal I just got use to eyeballing the amount on a toothpick. Scientific eh?

I'm going to have to WHAT WHEN?? Oh no.well alright. I'm really nervous (scared to death) of trying to open the stiches.....maybe I've really screwed things up here...I tied a knot in each stich.....how am I going to cut that without cutting the skin as well. Hindsight is 20/20, I wish I had used dental floss instead. At least the knots would be big enough for me to be able to cut without cutting Petunia all up. 

I have a dumb question...if I let the site dry out at this point won't it be harder for me to re-open (shudder) her to clean out the wound if it's starting to form scabs??? Anytime I've cut myself or my kids have had a cut I've always kept it clean, covered with ointment and bandaged until new skin has grown back. No infections no scarring. I'm sorry Pidgey I know you know what you're doing and you explained it once but I'm still kinda freaked (no actually I'm a lot freaked) at the idea of having to open the wound and go through this again....any chance things may be o.k. WITHOUT my having to do so. And If so ...HOW will I know?

I did e-mail the doctor that sent me the instructions to chop and stich to say thankyou and I did it, now what? but I haven't heard anything back. Actually I'm very surprised and delighted he sent me an e-mail in the first place.

Petunia is still not pooping as much as she should she was doing fine up until I did the two extra stiches today and then things kinda slowed right back down again but I'll start a drop count again tomorrow. I wish she would put some weight on she's so boney!! Oh by the way Pidgey you mention about her closing her eyes to sleep may not always be a good sign for an adult bird but it is acceptable in a young bird (well not exactly like that but that is what I gleened) so I was wondering could this possibly be another sign that she is still quiet young? Petunia has always seemed to relax and close her eyes when I'm holding her or if I reach into her cage and talk to her while giving her a head rub. Today (for example) I had just finished feeding her and I was holding her in my lap (with a little blanky on...Petunia not me) having a cup of tea. Cara and Espie (my two toy poodles x's) were acting like hoodlums and so she cocked an eye and leaned over looking at them, I started to massage her head and told her not to worry so she hunkered back down and closed her eyes again. After that she couldn't of cared less. And I still insist she is no dummy. I tried the finger touch nuzzling bit just before feeding her again. No Dice! She saw that egg cup and knew what was coming. AFTER the meal (when we were on the porch as I just explained) with no egg cup around I tried it again. She lifted her beak. just for a moment and sort of nuzzled back. But it was just for a moment so maybe I'm making something out of nothing........well I'm going to get to bed. Petunia has already crashed for the night. Indy (my lovebird) is in his bed. Really. He sleeps in a tiny cardboard bed, flat footed, no perch for him, attached near the top of his cage. 
I tried to take a picture of the wound again but it came out all blurry so I'll try again in the morning. I'll get me daughter to take the picture. It's a decent camera, at least it's suppose to be. Kodac something or other, anyway I shall have Kendra take a shot in the morning Goodnight everyone...thankyou all again SO MUCH........I'd be a nervous wreak without you...love JO


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## pdpbison

Hi jag,


She looks pretty young to me...

But of an age also where normally they would be pretty active off and on, and also nap-bunnys, off and on...

Make sure to feel her Crop to see if it is nice and 'squishy'...

If she is not getting enough hydration, it will slow th passag of food from hr Crop, and will mess up her food processing in general...

She should drink on her own if Water is offered...and when you offer Water make it 'tepid'...

I think there is a good chance that if you do the warm-moist-finger TIPS ( three finger tips, Thumb, Index and middl finger "tips", from th front, gently, of ) 'Beak Massage' that she might just Nuzzle...so, try again and let us know...

If she will Nuzzle, she will almost certainly eat 'like a baby' if offered the right food in the right way, and I will be glad to run you through the drill on that if you can get her Nuzzleing...


How are you keeping her?


In-a-cage? Or?



Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## JoAnne Guille

*Thanks Phil*

How am I keeping her? Well She is in a large cage with no perches. The floor has a metal bottom on top of the mesh wire base (which I put there so she would have a FLAT floor) and there are lots and lots of paper towels on the floor. Her balance is getting better but I still have a rolled up tea towel (covered with paper towels) in the corners so if she falls she won't be bashing herself on the side of the cage. And when she is pooped and ready to bed down for the night. I put her in the corner with the towel propped around her so she can stay upright (although she squats to sleep like a hen on a nest) but I leave the front open so she is not tripping on any part of the towel in the morning. She has a plastic margerine container with water and vitamins in it which is tipped down so she can reach it but not so much that she could fall in, wired to the side of the cage and there is food and gravel scattered on the floor. The room she is in is the warmest room in the house (in summer, in winter it is the coldest room in the house) This is an old farmhouse built in the 1860's. Any "air conditioning" in this house is done the same way as it was 140 years ago. You open a window. Indy (my lovebird) has his cage beside hers but I have also atttached another metal sheet to the side of Petunias cage that is beside Indy for some privacy and when the weather is really nice (been kinda crappy this week) I take her outside for some fresh air and if there is a breeze blowing the metal sheet also acts as a windbreak.They are both on a table looking out a large window. All three of my dogs sleep in this room as well. 

Would you please tell me how to feed her acting as a mama bird ? I don't know if it will work but I would sure like to try..thankyou very much......JO


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## Feather17

Hi Joanne-

I've been following your saga too. Sounds like you are doing a great job with this sweet little bird. 
Phil had started a thread a few days ago on feeding baby birds-in fact. he also has a baby dove. Take a look back at it.
Both Pidgey and Phil are experts. It's amazing what you can learn from them.
This message board is an awesome resource. As bird lovers you never know what you'll encounter! I've come across so many sick or injured birds in the last few months. I'm so glad I found this site, I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't.
Good luck with Petunia. She is so fortunate to have you caring for her.


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## Feather

Bless her little heart! No she is not very old. I have one that looks pretty much like her that was just weaned.

Considering all that she has been through, she looks quite well.

JoAnne, 
Several of us believe that injured birds are placed by their angels in locations where someone that is capable of helping them will find them. I think that you were presented with Petunia.

And of coarse we have Angels on this site, but I think that you have already met them. Petunia is a beautiful little bird! I feel very positive about the outcome, and will be watching the thread with anticipation.

Good Night JoAnne,

Feather


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## Feefo

Hi JoAnne,

You are doing a wonderful job!

On the subject of wound healing I would just add that wounds in wild birds are slightly different 

This is what my Wildlife Care book adds the following about birds, it is mostly reassuring:.

_" Wounds in wild bird casualties behave differently to those in mammals. Initially they bleed, bruise and get dirty but avian blood clots much more quickly than that of mammals and their higher body temperature makes them more resistant to infection.

Being more resistant to infection after wounds have been cleaned, and possibly sutured, birds put down granulation tissue rapidly underneath any debris or contamination. The battle of leucocytes and bacteria does not often produce the exudate seen in mammal woulnds, in fact pus in birds is usually solid or semi solid.

When a wound in a bird starts to geanulate a process called dry necrosis conglomerates dead tissue and debris into a solid mass which can be picked away, often intact, with forceps. Underneath, the granulation tissue will have apparently sealed off the wound and needs no further cleaning. Every 2 or 3 days this dry necrosis is picked away until re-epithalisation deduces the amount and fills the wound cavity._

But then there is a worrying bit:

_There are, however, bacteria that are ocassionally seen in the wounds of birds and are particularly foul smelling - bird wounds seldom smell. It seems to be particularly virulent and rapidly destroys all the soft tissues leaving a typical smelly, liquid residue. At present it seems that once the infection has taken hold it advances so rapidly that no treatment seems effective. Cleaning off the residue only leaves necrotic tissue prompting amputation if the infection is in the wing"_

I have only ever had one injured bird that had an appalling smelly wound and I suspect it had been left untended for a number of hours before it was brough to me, so hopefully the chances of this infection developing in Petunia are minuscule to non-existent, thanks to your quick intervention.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Hi JoAnne,


Cage set-up sounds good...

Soft crumpled cloths are sometimes a comfort, but usually, when they are fatigued, or young, or both, they sleep laying down more or less 'Like Hens' or sometimes they lay on their side somewhat...or kind of on one shoulder.


The present arrange you show for the elastic bandage, might be best if there is no pressure against her Crop, and or for it somewhat loose even if wrapped differently. Or even to try no elastic bandage at all, and see how she does that way.




Well, as far as feeding her like momma-and-baby...

You need to gently try the warm moist finger tips, massaging her Beak softly along it's length and around it's root...do this from the front, not from above or from the side or anything, but from straight on front and from around her Eye level...and, do it so her whole Beak is within the length of your finger's tip-pads and tips.

If she 'Nuzzles'... Nuzzles your fingers for a brief moment or two, and brightens up a little, seeming inquisitive, then the rest of it is worth trying...and I will gladly walk you through it then...

But...if no 'Nuzzle', then it's a no-go...

If you like, a good trial would be to do the warm, moist finger tips massage of her Beak, and if she Nuzzles even the tiniest bit, then gently guide her Beak into some ( ready and waiting) "tepid" Water, while gently keeping your finger tips ON her Beak AS you guide it into the Water, and keep your finger tips on her Beak as she drinks...this will be an excellent mid-way point...

In fact, at her age, and with this situation, you would do well under these circumstances, to only allow her Water in this way for now...and to make sure the Water is tepid...

And, to make sure she does drink often, or at least every couple hours...in this way.

Some youngish Doves or Pigeons sometimes, when they have been through some trauma, just do not eat and drink enough even when there is easy access to chow and Water...

Some will eat and drink more than enough, if there is easy access...


Yours, being injured and having just gone through so much stress, might not be drinking enough on her own inspires, so...try the thing above for her drinking, and see if you can get some 'Nuzzles' happenning...if you do it that way, then in effect, the 'Water' is comeing 'from' you, and it would be logical in her mind then, to be willing to suppose that nice warm yummy food, might also 'come-from-you'...

The Water must be 'tepid'...body temperature...this is important...



Well, my own little Dove is all wound up because she belives her Supper is due any minute.

She is correct of course...!

And likely psychic, since her supper is warming in another room...and I have said nothing about it to her, not even a glance.

So...off I go to get the chow rounded up and for her to have a nice Baby-Supper...and fill her little Crop.



Yeeeeesh, I had a couple Pan Cakes and Coffee around 10 a.m. and never did have anything since..

Oye...

Time for some me-supper too I recon...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## andinla

*You have gone through*

quite a ordeal with that little dove. How nice of you to help this poor little guy. I hope all turns out well for him. 

Andi


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## Pidgey

JoAnne Guille said:


> I'm going to have to WHAT WHEN?? Oh no.well alright. I'm really nervous (scared to death) of trying to open the stiches.....maybe I've really screwed things up here...I tied a knot in each stich.....how am I going to cut that without cutting the skin as well. Hindsight is 20/20, I wish I had used dental floss instead. At least the knots would be big enough for me to be able to cut without cutting Petunia all up.
> 
> I have a dumb question...if I let the site dry out at this point won't it be harder for me to re-open (shudder) her to clean out the wound if it's starting to form scabs??? Anytime I've cut myself or my kids have had a cut I've always kept it clean, covered with ointment and bandaged until new skin has grown back. No infections no scarring. I'm sorry Pidgey I know you know what you're doing and you explained it once but I'm still kinda freaked (no actually I'm a lot freaked) at the idea of having to open the wound and go through this again....any chance things may be o.k. WITHOUT my having to do so. And If so ...HOW will I know?
> I tried to take a picture of the wound again but it came out all blurry so I'll try again in the morning. I'll get me daughter to take the picture. It's a decent camera, at least it's suppose to be. Kodac something or other, anyway I shall have Kendra take a shot in the morning Goodnight everyone...thankyou all again SO MUCH........I'd be a nervous wreak without you...love JO


Briefly, you MAY have to reopen the wound but it's a lot less to worry about than you're thinking. Just calm down. I guarantee you that if it comes to that, it's just going to be working on stuff that's not going to be particularly sensitive. In other words, Petunia's going to be more discomfited by simply being held confined than in writhing agony. Don't get all worked up worrying about it.

It's not going to dry out like you're thinking. Bird skin usually gets edematous (that watery, slightly swollen look) when it's smeared with antibiotic ointments.

It's likely that your blurring problem is because you're trying to get too close with the camera--they can't focus clearly much closer than about 4 feet so it's usually better to stand a bit back, use all the zoom you've got and then crop the image later with software.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Yes Sir,*

O.K. Pidgey I shall do exactley as you say..I have to take my daughter to her "job" in a couple of hours (She walks dogs at our local animal shelter). May I put a light wrapping of guaze over the wound just to stop her from picking at it?..I'll drop Kendra off and then zip to the drug store, I could use some guaze for the house first aid kit anyway. 

Hey guess what.........Jazzaro's package came for Petunia...I'm very excited. His mixing directions are very clear but I e-mailed him anyway just to make sure I understand EVERYTHING properly. He even sent me some baby food! And a kind of scary looking syringe with a tube on it..but I'm sure all will be clear in my mind very soon...Thankyou again (and again and again).

I have Petunia outside right now (in her cage) maybe I'm old fashioned in believing in the power of fresh air and she does seem content. I usually pick her up and take her for a "walk" during the day at some point (weather permitting) just for a change of scenery. My little dog Cara stays close to Petunia at all times. Cara has "ADOPTED" MORE THAN ONE SMALL STRAY KITTEN (EVEN GOIONG SO FAR AS TO LET THEM "NURSE" OFF OF HER...wakko.... but she is a mama dog (toy poodle) and always kows when some little critter in the house is ill) (by the way I do not have nor do I have any intentions of having a cat at this point 3 dogs 1 loverbird and Petunia are quiet enough for me at this time). 

I will let you know how I make out with the first drug feeding...because I didn't expect the package to come so soon I gave Petunia a tiny dose of the Minocycline this morning so I shall wait until this evening for her first dose. In the meanwhile I shall get the guaze and get her wound dried out...I'll take a photo..standing farther back this time........thankyou for ALL of the advice...JO


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## Pidgey

I'm not sure what version (formulation) of Keflex he sent so we'll wait on Jazaroo to tell us that one. He can provide the dosing on that as well since it's from his own stock.

I'm not sure what kind of feeding tube it is that you've been sent but I will say that Jazaroo is the one who's done the most for you at this point as he's sent real stuff that costs real money so if there's any "Hip-Hip-Hurrah!-ing" to be done, Jazaroo should be sitting on the rest of our shoulders.

That tube is for crop feeding in case the bird went completely anorectic though. That is something that you deal with in really bad cases. Did he say he was also going to send some hand-feeding formula?

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Petunia Poop!*

I'm just about to take Kendra to her job (she only walks dogs for about an hour or so depending on the amount of dogs) in the meanwhile I thought I would send this shot of Petunia poop. Not the usual "Kodak moment" however I figure all the experts here might be able to deciper something from it. 
By the way I figured ou that the long tube on the syringe was for feeding the baby formula. I just gave Petunia a feed with it and Oh Boy was that ever EASY...so much better than a spoon. No Mess and ALL of it went into her. I fed her very slowly so she wouldn't choke..Ta Ta...I'll wrap her dry when I get home.... and get a shot of the wound to send out...thanks so much...JO


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## JoAnne Guille

*Hi Pidgey!*

When I sent the poop shot I just got your last post. Oh BELIVE ME.. Jazaroo is my hero! and I have expressed that in the e-mail to him....It's only through meeting (via the net in this case) with people like Ron that truley restores my faith in humanity. My husband always says I'm an idiot (or words to that effect) because I have always done the same sort of thing to others i meet along paths life, give things away, go out of my way to help etc. But the way I have always looked at it is that there is so much hurt in the world around us and while there is nothing (or very little) I can do to releave the worlds hurt I can help those I encounter along my path in life. I believe very strongly in Karma, that we all return to earths plane again and again. I have read Tarot cards (for myself and others ) for over 20 years and the lessons expressed through the Major Arcana are the same in all "religions" througout the world. Love others, treat others as you would want to be treated, what you sow is (in turn) what you will reap.

So Pidgey, Jazaroo is indeed a living example of these lessons being demonstrated through his actions. He is indeed my "hero"..so are you and Phil and everyone else who has sent such good wishes and positive vibes to Petunia and I. Bless all of you.much love JO...darn gotta go!!!!!!!!!!Be back soon


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## pdpbison

Hi JoAnne, 



Lubricate the tube with a little Olive Oil...


Formula should be 'body temperature'...


Set up a bright lamp, wrap her gently in a small cloth so her Legs and Feet are next to her Tail, and hold her upright between your legs so your legs are holding mostly just the extra cloth and her Tail, so she is upright.


Open her Beak and look into her Throat...so the light can illumine the details in there.


In the center, just behind her Toungue's 'root' is her Trachia, her 'Breathing Hole' or 'Wind Pipe'.

Take clear and definite note of this - you do not want to accidently get the tube into it, or be discharging forumla with the tube's end anywhere near it, even IF you sort of got away with it earlier.


In the very back of her Throat, is her Esophagus...and this, of course, leads to her Crop.


Look at the tube, look at her, and decide how 'far' the tube would have to go, to end up about in the mid area of her Crop.

Mark the tube if need be, or somehow note where in it's length the correct depth would occur at, when it is inserted.



The tube, attatched to the Syringe, should be lubricated with a little Olive Oil, and the Syringe-tube as a whole, can be gently twirled as one insert it...do not "push" in any way to get it in there, but just be sensitive for the weight in effect, of the Syringe at MOST, to be all the pressure there is, and with some gentle twirling and letting it find the passage...


So, you to insert it in TO the very back of her Throat in such a way, as for it to easily, with no resistance, slide into her Crop.

If you feel any resistance, pull back a little and try again.


When you have the end of the tube in to be at about the mid section of her Crop, discharge the formula in a slow easy firm way...use your Thumb on the syringe plunger...not your fingers.

20 ccs, or 20 mls, should have about eight to ten seconds to be discharged for a Bird such as yours...and while you do so, WATCH carefully that no formula is comeing up into her Throat from her Crop.

Formula discharged into her mouth or Throat, or fomula comeing up from her Crop for any reason...can drown her or get into her Trachia and lungs possibly, and kill her or cause an aspiration pneumonia which will kill her.

Make sure there is no pressure on or against her Crop...when you are holding her.

Test the formula to make sure it is not only entirely well mixed and homogenous, but that it is merely 'body temperature' and no more.

Warm the formula in a Tea Cup or other small thing, in a Pan of warm or hot Water...while stirring.

In fact, to mix the formula properly, put the powder into a little Tea Cup or the likes, and pour on enough good, cold, high quality Water ( do NOT use 'hot' Tap Water ever) so that the Water covers it and has about 3/8ths of an inch clear Water layer on top, and let it sit for twenty minutes or so, covered, in the fridge...and then, stirr and warm it.


There must be no lumps or thick spots in the formula.


Absolutely do not warm it useing a microwave, ever..."Period"...

I am assumeing this is a very soft Tube? About like medium well boiled Spaghetti?


Good luck...

Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

Happy to be able to help out. 

About heroes, almost any day I can come to this board and read about the heroic work being done by the members here for our feathered friends in need, I am still in awe of some of the posts I have read. I don't think there is a regular member, and even non-regular members, that would not step up and help if they can. This board has helped renew my faith in humanity to a great extent.

Now, just so we are all clear, I sent JoAnne; Cipro 500 Mg, Keflex 250 Mg, Metronidazole 250 Mg. Bactrim 480 Mg, Amoxicillan 500 Mg and a 1 cc dosing syringe. The baby food she is speaking about is Kaytee EXACT Hand Feeding Formula and the syringe does have a very soft and flexible feeding tube attached.

I recommended that the dose for most of these meds should be in the 5 Mg range, twice a day. I will rely on others to make any adjustments needed in med amounts or combo/kinds. The Keflex is in a 250 Mg capsule form and the Amoxicillan is a capsule as well, the rest are tablets, she has mixing instructions for all (JoAnne if you are not clear on anything, at anytime, please ask away in this thread).

JoAnne, my impression is that Pidgey wants to move from the Minocycline to Keflex, but I will let him speak directly to this himself. The rest are back-up meds if needed for now, hopefully they will not be required.

Phil gave you some great instructions on how to tube feed, (thanks Phil, I decided to include the tube/syringe & Kaytee at the last minute and did not include instructions) and Pidgey has a link, perhaps he can post, of photos of him doing the same.

All the best, 

Ron


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## Pidgey

Actually, 5 milligrams for this bird of the Keflex per dose is about right. The fun part is dividing that capsule into small batches like that. What you probably need to do is make 10 equal piles of the powder on a pane of glass using a razor blade like junkies do when they're making lines of cocaine (I've seen this on TV--never for real). I think I'd go ahead and make as perfect and long of a line as possible and then divide it up in 10 equal portions using a ruler if necessary. You can take one of those tenths and mix it into the amount of water that the bird can easily accept in a day in addition to her normal feeding (say, 1 milliliter) and then dose it out at intervals. The formulary that I have actually shows it being given "Q.I.D." or 4 times per day. If you've dissolved one of the tenths into 1 milliliter of water, then you'd dose 0.2 milliliters per dose. You need to shake the fool out of it before each dosing. If you want to go ahead and divide each tenth pile up into five separate piles, then you can give one of those at each administration. That might be easier than shaking the fool out of the syringe each time and you wouldn't have to worry about the water. I'd go ahead and start that one and get off the Minocycline at your earliest convenience.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Well, I can't get the link to that webshots series of handfeeding to work. It would seem that the webshots domain name is up for sale unless it's being temporarily hijacked by a hacker. We'll just have to see later. It sounds like you might have it under control though.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Lol...


My instructions for holding the Bird, of course anticipate a 'Sitting' position for the operative/food-giver...where one gently hold the up-right Bitd judt behind one's knees, or elsewhere between one's thighs as one sits next to a good, bright lamp or other light to see by...


I just read my own post there and I had not mentioned one does this while sitting...

So, trying to imagine it being done standing, of course, was hilarious...

Sorry for the ambiguity...


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Okay, the link seems to be working again:

http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Phew!*

Petunia is bedded down. She has a dosing of 5 mg. of Keflex before her last meal of the day. The instructions and the photos put things into perspective so I've got the hang of the feeding tube now.

When Kendra and I got home I started to change the bandage on Petunia. I removed the tensor bandage and the old gauze and started washing the wound. I don't know why but again my stiches that I had put in the other day were no longer snug and I could see some of that "white gunk" that was mentioned so .............fortunatley I have gotten a hold of proper forceps and surgical scissors. I removed all of the stiches and had to remove the white film bit by bit with the forceps. I put a couple of drops of Dettol in about 2 cups of warm water and used q-tips to clean out the wound. I got rid of all I could see. Then I restiched her using dental floss this time while Kendra (my daughter, who by the way ,wants to be a veterinary health technician when she grows up, wow what an intro) pinched the flesh together while I tied the knots. I used unwaxed Dental Floss this time. I like it much better than the tread I used the last time probabley just because any thread I had was thin and this is thick so when the knots are tied they are much more visable. I've included two photos, I hope you can make something out of them. I took them farther back and cropped them but they still seem blurry to me. The first is a shot of the wound after the stiches were removed and the next is with the new stiches in. I have given her a light gauze dressing, not ointment, no vitamins (on her skin) nothing. I just cleaned it well before dressing.

Again and again..thankyou so much...........Oh by the way...you probabley can't tell by the photos but even when the stiches were removed the wound seems to be closing up now. A small area over the bone is still the problem area, but I'm amazed at how much smaller wound area was today compared to Monday. 
I do have a question...If she is pecking (but not much) at the budgie mix how many timesa a day should I feed her and how much each time?....Jo


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## JoAnne Guille

*Forgot to say*

I also washed out the wound with warm water (not from the tap but from bottles water heated) after I finished the q-tipping.


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## Pidgey

Sounds about right. Might take a few more times. What are the physical dimensions of the wound at this point (without stitches)?

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*wound dimentions*

Sorry , I haven't had a chance to sit down since this morning (it's 5:30 p.m. where I am) the open wound dimentions at this time are a tiny bit over 1 cm. When I first started stiching on Monday the open wound was almost 2 1/2 cms. Holy cow can things start to close up that fast?? The part that is still open is directly over the bone. I have Petunia outside in her cage right now, and have removed the gauze to let the fresh air at it. I hope that is O.K. but the gauze is such a pain!!! It keeps shredding and I have to keep trimming it ever once in a while so she's not tripping over it . How often do you think I should have to re-open and clean??? 
Sorry to be a pest, but can anyone give me an idea of how often I should be feeding her?? and how much..even roughly??? I want to her to eat seed on her own and it could be my imagination but whe seems to be wolfing down the food ever since I let her lose (in her cage) bare winged.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Joanne, 

I just wanted to commend you on your truly EXEMPLARY care of this little dove Once I saw that you were getting the advice from some of our most seasoned members, I just withdrew as there was really little much I could offer/suggest.

You're a true soldier in your efforts to help this little dove and you're doing fabulously...and with the help of some of the others

As for feeding right now...just allow her to eat all she can, whenever she can....she really needs that!

Best wishes to you and this dove youngster


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## Pidgey

JoAnne Guille said:


> ...the open wound dimentions at this time are a tiny bit over 1 cm. When I first started stiching on Monday the open wound was almost 2 1/2 cms. *Holy cow can things start to close up that fast??* The part that is still open is directly over the bone. I have Petunia outside in her cage right now, and have removed the gauze to let the fresh air at it. I hope that is O.K. but the gauze is such a pain!!! It keeps shredding and I have to keep trimming it ever once in a while so she's not tripping over it . How often do you think I should have to re-open and clean???
> Sorry to be a pest, but can anyone give me an idea of how often I should be feeding her?? and how much..even roughly??? I want to her to eat seed on her own and it could be my imagination but whe seems to be wolfing down the food ever since I let her lose (in her cage) bare winged.


On a bird, yes--they have unbelievably fast metabolisms. When it gets down to where it's just the bone, the only trouble we may have (and I doubt it'll be too bad) will be the back side of the skin. If the back side of the skin was exposed for very long, then it will also want to form a thin layer of garbage that'll have to be cleaned out. 

You never did explain whether there was plenty of loose skin to pull across the wound or whether you had to insert scissors under to break the fascia. If you did, then there is very little likelihood that it'll need to be done anymore when it comes to sealing over the bone section.

Give it about three or four days and then look at it again to see what it looks like. If it fills with scab or that white cheesy crap, it won't be able to shrink down any more so every time you get rid of that stuff it can go down a lot more in a single whack until it gets to where it's just the skin over the bone. At that point, it might be simpler to trim the skin edges and oppose them so that they'll heal together quicker.

It sure would be nice to see her eating on her own, I know. But, frankly, the superior nutrition of the formula isn't a bad idea both to help with infection fighting as well as dealing with the repair work on the injury. What you might do is split the difference. Normally at that age, they're wanting about 10 to 15% of their body weight in food, three times a day. So, if we assumed that this was a 120 gram bird, then you'd be looking at approximately 12 cc's (milliliters) of formula, three times per day. You could give Petunia either one or two meals per day that way and let her make up the difference by eating all she wants on her own.

Another thing you might consider doing for her is literally giving her a very warm bath with some dish-soap water to get that greasy residue out of her feathers. You'd want that to be somewhere in the ballpark of 95 to 100 degrees F so as not to chill her and then you need to fluff her in a towel and work her over with a blow dryer. You might wait on that a few days until she builds her strength back up but it'd be good to keep her as warm as possible in the interim.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Oh Boy A Spa!*

( Thankyou Brad, thankyou eveyone)

Absolutley I will give her a beauty treatment......all us girls need that from time to time. I am just starting supper for my human family. Thankyou for the guidelines...I think I have been exceeding that a bit in the "pounding" portion of our program..........Is it alright to let the "air" at her wing or should I be gauzing it? The wreatched flys here in Southwestern Ontario are a Biblical plague this year!!!


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## Pidgey

We really don't want flies getting on that wound, that's for sure. If they're landing on it, then gauze would be definitely be better.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

By the way, be careful not to get soapy water in her eyes (unless, of course, you're using Johnson's No More Tears Baby Shampoo).

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Joanne, I can't add anything helpful about her treatment because our Pidgey has that covered but I do want to say what a remarkable job you're doing. The last picture of her eating is precious. She is going to be a beautiful bird when this problem is behind her.


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## JoAnne Guille

*Thankyou*

Thankyou Maggie,yes I think she'll be georgeous when all is said and done...mind you I think she is pretty cute now! She took to her first bath very well the evening. She even walked around the sink through the bubbles. The soap I used to bath her with I trust because I make it myself. I'ts a Rosewater and Glycerin bae (no animal products) with botanical oils and fragrance. No synthetics whatsoever. Even the colouring I use is food grade. Nonetheless I was carefull not to get any in her eyes. It's been a while since my kids took a bath in the kitchen sink but I remember the drill and it will be a few more baths until her feathers (what she's got left) clean off.

I'm sorry Pidgey, by the time I really get into writing a response I forget half the questions. As far as loose skin goes there was enough to pinch together over the bone and stich. I did'nt run any sort of knife under it to lossen, I just pinched the skin (and attached flesh) over the wound and sewed. I'm HOPING that I won't need to do anything else and that the last stiches wsll be just that. THE LAST STICHES. However I'll keep a close eye on it and I think gauze will be the order of the day for her outdoor time. 

Goodnight and Godbless..........love JO


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## pdpbison

Hi Jo,


Glad to hear..!


If you are going to be tube-feeding her, do please make sure the tube is into her Crop and not merely in the back of her throat...

Seed-Wise, I am not surprised her appetite has improved for the removal of the bandage...it can have that effect on them sometimes.

If there is anyplace near you which sells various kinds of Seed or Bird Seed, consider to get some Fich Seed or Canary Seed or both, and even some White Safflower Seed. Doves tend to like these, and for that matter, when next at the Grocery Store, get some nice ( not dried out) Anise Seed also, which you can bruise between rolled palms, and add. This sometimes perks their appetite up also.


She sure is cute!

Too, you can peck with her to add some social encouragement to it...you just use your crook'd index finger and pretend to 'peck' right next to her...right where she is pecking...


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## JoAnne Guille

*So Far So Good*

I took a look at what was in the "delux" mix my lovebird Indi likes and low and behold there was safflower as well as a very good mix of many other things. I removed all of the sunflower seed because I don't know if she can have those along with any bits of dried fruit and tiny bits of vitamin fortified biscuts and veggie bits as well. If I'm not sure I'm taking it out. Petunia must have liked it though, the pile I put in seemed to disappear quickly. She didn't seem to respond to the index finger pecking, she just sits and watches. Perhaps she is too poliet and waits her turn. What she does respond to is my rehilling what she has scattered. As soon as I make a new pile she comes over and starts to eat. I'll pick up some Anise seed tomorrow from our local health food store, unbelievable that a one horse town like Glencoe has a heath food store but it does. I know the lady who owns it and her stock of everything is always fresh. Thankyou Phil for the advise and I am being very careful about the tube feeding. After all this to have ME wind up DROWING her really would be just too much.

Today I noticed a raw looking area above her sholder blade on the same side as the missing wing. If it has been there all along I did not notice it because her neck feathers kept it covered. I've included a photo. It was looking like it would be sore today. As I said I don't know if it was there all along or if it was from the tensor bandage, although I can't see why that would happen because the bandage was never tight enough to cause that. I shall keep an eye on it and I was spraying it with the first aid spray again today.

Well that's the days report.....have a good night all................JO


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## pdpbison

Hi JO,



See http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html  and if you could, determine what promitory this effedcted area represents...

I could not tell form the image quite where on Petunia this raw area is...

Anyway, hopefully, there are no punctures attending it...and merely that the Feathers had been pulled out in her altercation.

Neosporin should be fine for that I would think...

Glad she is eating well...!


Excellent..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## JoAnne Guille

*More than one.*

As far as I could tell, after giving Petunia a bath this evening, The primary raw looking area is (according to the skeletal stucture image) located over the Glenoid Fossa. I've been so preoccupied with the missing wing I've never really push feathers back and around to really examine her. While I was blow drying her this evening I did just that and she has a number of heavy scabs covering up Lord knows what. Wether they were caused by tooth or claw who knows but they are closed off now by her own body (scabbed) so I'll just keep them clean. 
She is eating like a tiny wolf but she is still really boney along the breast. I had a look at the wound and it's hard to tell what's going on underneath with all those stich knots there so I'll just leave it for two more days and then I will remove the stiches and have a better look, but for know the dental floss seems to be holding much tighter than the regular thread so that's good.
Well that's it....just checking in with the Petunia report, thankyou and have a good night all .............JO


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## Pidgey

We'll never really know Petunia's story but at least it's looking better now. She won't put on weight over her breast muscles too fast--that should take a couple of weeks, at the minimum.

She really is a testament to the will to live, I'll give her that. I'm so glad you found her!

Pidgey


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## Feather17

Joanne-
Thanks for taking the time to update us on Petunia. I'm looking in on you everyday to see how she's doing.
I'm really amazed at her progress and your efforts! You're doing an excellent job. You're a brave lady for taking on her case! I'd be so afraid that I'd hurt her more. Thank goodness that I had Phil to help me with my poor patients! What a Godsend! 
Pidgey and Jazaroo too!
You all are so wonderful to take so much care and concern. The world certainly is better because of all of you!


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## pdpbison

Hi JP,


Some kind of Canid I'd imagine...a Dog most likely, but who knows...

I am just so amazed she somehow got away, and that you found her/she found you...!

If there are various other eye-tooth punctures which have scabbed over, I would expect the anti-biotics she has been on to have probably helped that out well...that and her own trueely amazeing immune system.

I have seen recovering ferals who had serious bites and eye tooth punctures who evidently had from dog mauling and boted in their bodys, and who had survived and got well on their own, but this is certainly against the odds, as the possibilities of abcess, or deadly systemic infection, are very common in predation-bite scenarios.


Glad to hear she is eating like-a-Horse...!



Can you get her some fresh leafy Kale? Or try her on some various leafy Greens? ( Not Lettuces, but more 'serious' ones, Kales, Chards, Endives...)


And or, in addition, get her some dried thin-matted Sea Weed which you cah shred with your fingers for her or just let her peck bits off the whole?


Very good for them...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo

Do you get raccoons where you are?

The last case that I remember in which a pigeon was found alive but with a limb missing was in this thread ...apparently he survived that attack.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=2453&referrerid=560


Cynthia


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## JoAnne Guille

*Petunia*

Well I was wondering what else she could eat besides seeds. I have all kinds of greens (beet, spinach etc.) growing in the veggie patch. I put a bit of fresh peach in her cage today but she did'nt seem too interested.

I don't know if Petunia was just doing a few dove exercises today or testing out her flight capabilities but she sure got the one wing going and the stub of the other was moving just as fast. Poor Petunia. Well the workout will do her good nonetheless I'm sure.

My daughter, Kendra, took a photo of Petunia in her bath tonight. She seems to enjoy the bathing part but the hair (feather) drying I'm sure leaves something to be desired.
I'll get out in the garden first thing tomorrow and pick her some greens! Ta Ta from Petunia and I................thankyou...JO


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## Pidgey

That one picture earlier of her eating with the greasy feathers looked so pitiful and this one of her taking a bubblebath is so precious! Well, if she'll never fly then I guess the only thing for it is to be spoiled beyond belief. That's about all you can do.

Pidgey


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## Lin Hansen

Oh Joanne, that picture is just precious!!!

So glad to see that things seem to be going well......best of luck to you. You're doing a fantastic job.

Linda


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## JoAnne Guille

*Oh I forgot*

Yes indeed we most certainly do have racoons. Nasty little beings....I really do thing that is what Petunia got tangles up with. In which case all the more power to her for somehow getting away. A little O.T. was in play with her guardian angle.....JO


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## Feather

That bath picture is adorable.

I know gushing is not permitted, but, I am sorry T.R.....I am vertually gushing
all over this thread. 

Another example of how members can pull together as a team and turn a sad situation around.

All of you are fantastic! JoAnne you did better than wonderful.

Feather


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## pdpbison

Oh...such a precious little face there...


Such a sweetie...!


Now my little Dove is asking me "Hey! You there, yea you looking at the image of the Dove getting a nice 'Bubble Bath' ...Helloooooo-ohhhh??? - ehemmmm! Uhhhhh, it's Bath-Night here too, yes????"


Lol...

So...I guess it is...!

...sigh...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

*Hi JoAnne,*


Well I was wondering what else she could eat besides seeds. I have all kinds of greens (beet, spinach etc.) growing in the veggie patch. I put a bit of fresh peach in her cage today but she did'nt seem too interested.

*I don't know about doves, but my pigeons love spinach, curly Kale and endive. They prefer the spinach, but nevertheless I make them try it all. *


My daughter, Kendra, took a photo of Petunia in her bath tonight. JO

*What an absolutely adorable picture of Petunia. She is a real gem and very lucky to have found you. Thank you for all you have done for her. That definitely would be a photo contest winner.*


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## Whitefeather

Kendra,
You did a wonderful job of capturing such a priceless picture of Petunia bathing in bubbles.  

You are doing an awesome job of caring for her JoAnne.  

Cindy


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## JoAnne Guille

*Warm Night*

And a warmer day. I kept Petunia indoors until the sun passed off the porch. There is always a breeze here even on the hottest days so even when things are like an oven in town they are at least bearable here.There was only a tiny bit of sunlight shinning into Petunias cage when I took her out but she seems to enjoy sun bathing so she walked over to where the sun was sat down, closed her eyes and looked most content. She wasn't too fond of the beet greens I offered her so I'll keep trying. I put a bit of watermelon into her cage and she did try that.

I saw the dove "defensive" posture today. My lovebird Indy has been facinated with her since she joined our family. Today while I was tidying up Petunia's cage Indy jumped from my shoulder and scooted over the top of the cage and then started working his way down. Petunia lifted her one wing (and stub of the other) and fluffed up her body, even her head, to make herself look "tough". Poor little girl. I guess she hasn't had much luck meeting other "critters". Indy will just have to content himself with making "moon eyes" at her from behind bars for now.

Good news! There are some pin feathers starting to grow in along the stump! I can't say that they are growing right up to the edge but things are just beginning so I'll hope for the best.

Thankyou again for all the support and kind words. It's good to have friends............JO


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## TAWhatley

Thank you for the good news and cute update, JoAnne. Petunia is just the most precious little bird! 

Terry


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## mr squeaks

I found out that Squeaks liked greens while I was making a salad. I accidently dropped a piece of lettuce and he grabbed it faster than I could reach down and pick it up! I would take small bits and drop them. He loved going after them and never missed!

You might try "dropping" little pieces of dark green lettuce or other greens as mentioned and see what happens!

Hope this helps...

Petunia is one spoiled loved bird! She sure is cute!


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## JoAnne Guille

*Eat your Greens MISS!*

Still won't touch 'em. I tried dropping little bits right in front of her. I even ate some murmering sthings like "Boy is this ever good" etc. No Dice. The last greens I offered I thought for sure she would take. A farmer dropped some wheat on the road while harvesting the field beside us and it had sprouted. I scooped some up took it in the house and washed it, then I put it in a neat little pile over top of her pile of seed. (Petunia has seed and grit in a little blue dish but I always scoop some out and put it on the floor since she seems to prefer pecking like a chicken.) When I took a peek at her a little later she had scattered the pile from one end of her cage to the other! I don't know if she ran thorugh it, scrached through it or just tossed it into the air. Who knows if she even ate anything? I'll try again tomorrow.

I really don't know what to do about her wound. The stiches still look fine. There is no gapping of the wound around them like there was the first time. It would appear (to my untrained eye) that the wound "line" is now covered over with a thin scab. I don't want to remove the stiches and start ripping scabs off of her if I don't have to....opinons please.
Thankyou and have a good restful sleep everyone. I've been hauling rocks in the sun all day with the "humidex" reading it was 45 C. here today for people like myself who still have to convert that into the F. that is somewherre slightly over 122F. and that is pretty darn hot...I expect to be drifting off into a coma shortly................Jo


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## pdpbison

Hi JO,


Oye...45 C would be about 112 F..plenty hot enough...Lol...


Glad to hear about the little 'sprouts'...!


Direct Sunlight is good of course...good for the convelesent, or for any of them.

You are a Gem...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Well, it seems you're well past the worst of it. Eventually, you can take the stitches out and she might take care of the rest by worrying it a bit with her beak. In retrospect, the first (and successive) pictures were a bit deceiving by way of the flash "flattening" them. I would venture to say that the structure of the shoulder per se might never have been exposed and that there was always a knob of flesh there which is more of the upper wing than anything else. 

You might try taking one stitch out at a time and letting her work with it for a day or two before taking another out. If there is a small scab, you could also just pick out the piece and it will probably seal itself back up and smaller within the day. I think she's at that point where she can heal now and fairly quickly, too.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Do Pinfeathers bleed?*

I picked Petunia up at one point today and after I had held her I shifted her around and noticed a few tiny blood spots on my shirt. There are pinfeathers growing in not only on her wing stub but also at her tail location. About three of them looked somewhat bloody at the ends. Not well or anything serious but I've never seen a pinfeather bleed before?

To top things all off I think she may have gotten a bit too much sun today. Her pour wing stub and body around it looks a bit pinker to me than is should! I was really easy on the bath temp tonight. More to the tepid side and I sprayed her with Solarcaine over the bald area that looks so pink, I'll keep her out of the direct sun tomorrow, I know she loves to sit in the sun but for crying out loud it never even occured to me that she could get sunburnt!!
Poor little thing! Pinfeathers,bald and burnt on one side of her body.

By the way I saw on this site (somewhere) that someone gave thier pigeon a bit of yoguart. Can I give a bit to Petunia...maybe all of thease antibiotics will mess up her bowls. (good bacteria being destroyed by bad bacteria etc.).

I let Petunia air dry tonight after I gently blotted her dry with her towel. If what I suspect is true a hair dryer set on warm would be mightly "ouchy".
Hope everyone is keeping cool.....thankyou so much..........JO


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## Pidgey

Yeah, they can get sunburned. And growing feathers can bleed if they get messed with overmuch. Live yoghurt or probiotics or flakes of poop from similar birds that are undeniably healthy or even formula like Kaytee and the similar brands.

PIdgey


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## Maggie-NC

Joanne, we use yogurt in our formula and Benebac powder (alternating) and it does help. 

Personally, I wouldn't be putting Petunia out in the sun period until she gets past this trauma. Right now I just can't see that as being a critical point in her recovery. Also, you might want to discontinue the baths for awhile or limit them to maybe one time a week.


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## JoAnne Guille

*Sorry???*

Live yoghurt or probiotics or flakes of poop from similar birds that are undeniably healthy or even formula like Kaytee and the similar brands.

Sorry I don't quite understand, I assume that's an o.k. with the yogart? 
Can I use flavored stuff? (Indy my healthy lovebird has volentiered to poop in
Petunias seed pile but I think I shall skip his kind offer)

Petunia's pink skin looks much better this morning, ugh stupid me! I'm not sure how her tail fethers would have been distrubed enough to cause them to bleed but I'm thinking that perhaps when I have someone (one of my kids or husband) hold her so I can give her the meds her tail feathers might be getting bumped so I'll take percautions against that happening again.

Otherwise her feathers are coming in just fine and I'll start with undoing one stich this morning...thankyou again....JO


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## JoAnne Guille

*O.k.*

Oh....O.k. i shall hold off on the baths for a bit.....and no more sun for Petunia. I moved the table I was placing her on this morning so that there is no sun exposure whatsoever. It's quiet cloudy today..just as well I don't need anymore sun exposure myself either....I found a mirror that will fit into her cage so I'm going to rig it up this morning. I think she is well enough to recieve "visitors" now. So far all she's had for company is a painted rock that looks like a lady bug. We'll see if she prefers her "own" company in the mirror!


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Joanne, I wouldn't use any poop whatsoever. When we mix the Exact formula, we use about 1/4 to 1/2 tsp of plain yogurt mixed in at each feeding. I honestly don't know about the flavored yogurt. I brought that up one time but if I remember correctly everyone said use the plain. We had to buy the 16 oz size because we couldn't find it any smaller so be prepared to eat some yourself!  Probably for the small amount of formula you mix for Petunia about 1/4 tsp should be enough per feeding.

About the sunlight. I'm not sure if I understood correctly but is she in sunlight outdoors or just through a window. If the light is coming through a window it does not have any benefit - only direct, outdoor sunlight does and then the cage should be monitored and have an area where she can move into shade. In any event, right now I just don't think she needs that.

My thinking on the sunlight and baths is that she needs to reserve all her resources to healing and any stress (baths can be stressful) can deplete her.


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## mr squeaks

I'm not a yogurt fan but eat it because of the benefits. Would prefer the "flavored" ones, but usually avoid due to high SUGAR content! Don't think the sugar is good for birds either, which is probably, at least one reason, why the plain is recommended.

BTW, since you probably have to buy the bigger size and have to eat some yourself, try some crushed pineapple (in its own juice) and some walnuts mixed in with your yogurt. Makes a great snack! You and Petunia can each enjoy your separate yogurt servings!


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## pdpbison

Hi JO,



What may be decidedly UN-desireable about 'f;avored' Yoghurt, is the Sugar content.


The possible Fruit itself should be fine within reason, but will be no where near as good as genuins unsweetened Fruit Syrups or Juices, such as those made of Goji Berries, Elder Berries or dark or sour Cherries.


Too, there is nothing in Yoghurt which is not readily available in most of the powdered 'Pro-Biotics'...and in fact the Pro-Biotics will contain many more and various additional flaura and fauna which the Yoghurt does not contain.


Soft direct Sunshine, where she may elect to have it, should be fine, so long as it is not overdone. And it should benifit her also...

A light 'glistening' of her Seeds with ( must be "fresh", NEW Bottle, ) Ollive Oil, will allow various 'powders' to stick to the Seeds...if you are not feeding formula...


Opps...gotta run...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## JoAnne Guille

*Disaster!*

I can't believe this PETUNIAS SCAB FELL OFF!!! This is not a good thing! The hole that was left was bloody but much smaller and I had to re stich the wound. I only put in two stiches this time because the unhealed area is much smaller, but OH MY GOD...WHY??? I was handing her to my daughter to hold so I could give Petunia her meds and after Kendra took her I felt something in my hand. I thought she had pooped but it was the scab...stiches and all! I can't beleve this, how awful! Poor bird..what a nightmare to go through all over again and I thought we were out of the woods.

I'll get plain yogart, I'll skip the baths and Petunia has always had her cage put outside in the sunlight, turned so that she has a choice of either sun or shade to go into and I always keep an eye on her.

I am so unhappy about this...I feel like I've taken two steps forward and 3 back. Well I guess not really because the wound area is much smaller than when I started however I just don't understand how this could have happened. I didn't bump her wound or anything it just plain FELL OFF! What's going on??? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeze tell me why, how can I stop this from happening again? Her wound has no bandage on it at this point, do I need to put one on???...........................Thankyou....JO


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## pdpbison

Hello JO, When scabs fall off 'naturally' all be well...no worrys about that. Computer eyboard went bad...hard to type...best wshes Phl LasVegas


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## Feefo

Ho JoAnne,

As Phil says, nothing to worry about.

I put hydrogel on wounds precicely so that a scab doesn't form, the wound heals better that way. If a scab forms I have to remove it.

I once let a wound scab over because I knew no better and a tracking abscess, capped by a plug of necrotic tissue as big as half a thumb, formed. I had to pull the plug and you can imagine the hole that left! I had to ensure that another scab didn't form by removing it daily, but the new tissue grew from the inside and the wound soon healed properly.

Cynthia


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## JoAnne Guille

*Oh My*

Phew! What a relief....sorry to be such a dummy but I'm getting a little confused here. Prior advice was to let the wound dry and I haven't had a badage of any sort on Petunia since the "surgery". I'm in the sticks here and I don't know what hydrogel is. Can I bandage and use polysporn for a few days?...Thankyou for the reassurance.....JO


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## Feefo

Is there a pharmacy where you live? It is probably sufficient at this stage to flush the wound with sterile saline (widely available because it is used as an eye wash) and place an antibacterial gel over it.

In Canada hydrogel is called Duoderm Hydroactive gel:

INDICATIONS:
DuoDERM Hydroactive Sterile Gel is a clear, preservative-free, viscous, hydrogel that contains hydrocolloids. Designed for the management of partial- and full-thickness wounds, such as pressure sores and leg ulcers. It is ideal for use as a filler in dry cavity wounds because it provides a moist healing environment and helps to soften and remove necrotic tissue through the natural autolytic process of debridement.
Features:

Helps to soften and remove necrotic tissue 

Hydrocolloid formulation

Provides filler and a moist environment

Transparent, preservative-free.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

I gave the advice to let the outer wound dry based on the assumption that the skin was pulled tight and sealed. But, that was also predicated on the idea that you were occasionally going to have to open said closure, debride and re-close. The biggest reason to keep it "dry" was because the moisturizing component that you had access to was antibiotic ointments and oils. Those have a tendency to impede regrowth and are mostly useful when you're actually fighting a local infection. In such a case, the tool is matched to the task.

As to hydroactive dressings, they're great when you can actually lay your hands on them in the time allowed. But even they are not a panacea. I actually messed up putting it in one of Pierpont's wounds--the stuff dried up and left a larger piece of debris than could be pulled out through the opening without ripping the closure open. So, there is something of a science to their use and there can be pitfalls as with anything.

At the onset of this deal, there was always more than one way to proceed and I advised the way that I figured you had the stuff and fortitude to go with on hand. The bird is certainly not in imminent danger at this point--this is only a nuisance thing. Successive debridement may be thought of a simple progression from wound to smaller wound until it's gone altogether, with the enhancement of pulling the wound edges together as a means of trying to minimize the featherless area down the road, both for insulation as well as padding in a fall, which is highly possible with this bird for the rest of its life.

That was my logic.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I forgot to mention the complication of having exposed bone, and that being something more than just a protusion to be clipped off. The method of healing management has to take this into account because tissue won't "granulate" over an exposed bone of its own accord. This means you're going to have to do it which brings you back to stitching it back up, repeatedly if necessary, until the day it finally sticks and stays.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*I went on a mission today.......*

To the nearest "big" town of Strathroy and found some "Duoderm Hydroactive Gel". Pidgey is there something I should be aware of using this stuff? Does it act as sort of a clear bandage?? 
I've been looking very closly at the two stiches I put in last night and I swear to God it looks to me like there is so much pressure, maybe between her moving around and flapping her "wings" that the stiches are lossening because they are ripping through the skin pulled over the wound. I only put two stiches in last night but I would have liked to do at least three and possibly four but I couldn't. The needle went through the previous hole and then the dental floss just pulled through the skin. It's shredded. I can close it with my fingers but there is not a large enough loose flap of skin to fit easily over the wound. Am I explaining this right??
I was wondering about something I saw at the pharmacy. They had what I think was called butterfy something or other, but they were used instead of stiches to close a wound. If I HAVE to close this wound again can I use something like that? I'm really worried and I'm not kidding you I really don't beleive I could sew her up one more time.
Petunia is eating really well and today I gave her the last dose of the Keflex (thankyou again Jazzaro) with this setback (at least I feel like it's a setback) should I use one of the other antibiotics and keep dosing her??

I appriciate everyones help so much. I really did freak yesterday when the scab fell off and this gaping bloody hole was left. As I said it is smaller (much) than when I started so it is healing. When all of this is over (Please Lord the name is Jo not Job) and Petunia is healed right up I'm going to think about and try to design some sort of prostetic for the stub just so she can keep her balance better. I'd like for her to be able to climb up on a perch one day if she wants to instead of having to walk around on the floor of her cage permanently but right now I think I'm more anxious for her to get totaly healed up than even she could be................thankyou JO


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## mr squeaks

First, let Petunia heal, Jo, and then worry about anything else. Sometimes it's amazing how animals will adjust with a serious handicap. 

Squeaks will never fly because he doesn't have flight feathers on his right side. He runs around like mad, rules 4 cats and me and does an impressive HOP/FLAP routine that has gotten stronger with time!  

One step at a time and lots of LOVE and patience!


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## JoAnne Guille

*Oh Yes*

It's going on midnight here and my eyes are falling out of my head...I just re read this last page and sort of got the "jist" on the hydrogel...I think...can this stuff take the place of stiches to fill the wound hole? Right now I have the two stiches in her and I'm just applying a layer of the gel on the top with a q-tip....is that o.k.? If the stiches fall out or rip off can I use this gel just to fill the hole? 
There are no instructions on the tube. How many times aday should I be rinsing (I got sterile saline as well) and applying this stuf?.thankyou and goodnight....JO


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

It sounds like Petunia is coming along quite nicely, despite some daily ups' and downs'. I know myself from experience, it is almost never 100% smooth sailing when it comes to traumatic injuries.

Amoung the antibiotics that you have left, you have Amoxicillan and Cipro, since you are right now using the antibiotics as a prophylactic, to stop an infection from incurring, and not treating an active infection, Amoxicillan should be a safe bet, as the Cipro is too big a weapon to institute right now.

I am sure Pidgey will be along before too long, and will make his thoughts known on a change in antibiotics. You have been getting some really superb advice and as Pidgey says, and I agree, I think the worst is over and her progress to recovery will continue.

All the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey

Yeah, you might have a little bit of something called a "soft tissue" infection for which the Amoxicillin might do well. Bird skin is a bit on the thin side and it doesn't hold well for sutures if there's much tension because the skin that's pinched in the actual suture just cuts off the circulation, it necroses and then the stitch pulls out (rather like clockwork, actually) so that's why you often have to detach the fascia like I mentioned much earlier.

Anyhow, if the wound's a lot smaller then the bird's getting better and her behavior says that she's not in great discomfort. You will either need to post a picture of the current wound (with a dime for scale or cm's in your description) or make the assessment yourself as to how it's shaped and where that pesky bone fragment is (whether it's already covered up or still exposed) and we'll go from there.

The hydrogel is kinda' like caulking. You spread a thin layer out over the wound and it'll protect it somewhat. There's actually a few different forms of the stuff and the skin-like sheets that are spread out and sutured down on the corners are pretty handy but that's intended to be used over an area of missing stuff--not so much over a pit or hole. It's difficult to say if you trowel that on is whether the hole will close as much as you want. It won't close over a bone, though.

One of the worst enemies to a healing wound is desiccation (drying out). Usually enough flesh and blood dries to form a scab and that keeps the rest of it from drying out. However, scabs don't shrink without us picking them so either you have to pick the edges so that soft flesh can close down and fill in the gap OR scar tissue has to form. The hydroactive dressings and ointments will keep the wound from drying out, making rather like a scab, albeit a somewhat "see-through" one. They also make a disease-resisting barrier. In these respects, they operate somewhat like skin. They can also interfere a little under certain circumstances and, again, they won't encourage a wound to enclose exposed bone--you're going to have to do that.

If you'll remember way back when we began this adventure, I told you in a roundabout way that this wasn't going to be as simple as just closing it and forgetting it but that it could be done without a vet's help if that wasn't an option and that's what you'd indicated. Therefore, welcome to the somewhat expected future! You just didn't want to emotionally believe it at the time.

So, now is the time to assess how to proceed based on the information above. You can go either way for awhile but the first priority is to assess how the bone is either protruding or submerged. That's the key. If it's already covered by something or other, you can smear on the hydrogel and watch it for a day or two to see how it's going. If the bone's still visible, though, you're going to have to figure out how to cover it better and that might mean relieving the fascia to get the skin where it has less tension.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Hi Jo,

One of the functions of hydrogel is to prevent dissecation as well as to protect the wound from bacteria. I used it recently on bullet wounds in pigeons that had been shot. It is for packing wounds rather than sealing them, but can be covered with a dressing. The link on avian wound management that I posted earlier explains that bit.

This is a link to instructions for the use of Intrasite, which is the hydrogel that I use.

http://www.dressings.org/Dressings/intrasit.gel.html

When I received a pigeon with a bad wing injury (not severed but with the bone broken and protruding) Helen adbised me to put antibacterial gel on it and flush twice daily (that was before I heard of hydrogel). Believe it or not that pigeon is flying now, although the only surgery he had was to have the bone filed down and tucked in.

I also had to remove a plug of necrotic tissue that was the width and half the length of my thumb, the result of a tracking abcess, from another pigeon. As you can imagine it left a large hole behind which I treated the same way, it healed quickly and completely.

In both cases the antibiotic given was clavamox.

Cynthia


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## JoAnne Guille

*Did anyone ever tell you....*

that you are wonderful? Well I'm telling you again. Pidgey, Cynthia, Jazzaro,Phil...........(why did I start listing names? Gottat dance out of this quickly) and everyone else that has been here to help me through all of this trama!
Yes Pidgey, you're right.I certainly did not want to face things emotionaly in regards to doing any other "surgical" type things once I had done the first session. The diference now is that I have such good advice and people who actually understand what I'm trying to deal with. Physicaly and Financialy. A vet has never been an option, other than to place a few phonecalls to re-confirm the fact. 
I shall post a picture tomorrow with a dime for comparison.

On the brighter side...Petunias feathers are coming in fast and furious! I took her out today and let her have a "walky" on the grass in the front lawn. 
She liked that so it will become part of our daily routine. By the way...does anyone have any idea what a "beep" in dove language means? Petunia is starting to beep at me when ever I stick my hand in her cage, which is quiet a bit every day. Fill her water dish, pile up more seed, remove poops, fluff her pillow etc. She hasn't "cooed" yet but then I guess tahere isn't too much to coo about. This beep noise she makes is almost a buzz. Strange.

Thankyou again for explaining things...rather like holding a flashlight at the end of the tunnel I seem to be in. I'm feeling much more positive now thanks to all of you. Everything will get better and in the mantime I hve the best of company.................thankyou very very much............JO


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## pdpbison

Hi Jo....'Walkies' sounds good but Grass can make them itch sometmes if their Feathers are not in yet...dunno what the 'beep' might be...the Dove Babys, Youngsters, or Adults i get are usually very quiet...though the quite young make somewhat gentle Flute-Like sounds at times when asking to be fed...hope my new keyeboard gets here soon! - - - - - Phil, where dead keys make for highlighting and copying inidivdual letters from othertexts to make these lines...Lol...in Las Vegas


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## JoAnne Guille

*Picture*

Hi I'll just post the picture for now and write a bit later, I'm sorry it's still now the quality I would like..clear close up...but here it is.......JO


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## Maggie-NC

Joanne, I went back and looked at Petunia's first picture showing that terrible wound and compared it with the one you just posted. It just makes me feel good all over to see so much improvement. What a difference you have made to this little guy. She looks so much better.


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## Feefo

I was just thinking the same as Maggie.

Petunia certainly managed to find the best possible person possible to help her.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

The size of the wound is certainly far smaller now. I guess we need to focus on the $64,000 question: Is that a Canadian dime? (I seem to remember they were smaller than the American dimes by the tiniest amount... )

Seriously, is the bone end visible in that wound or is it covered already? If it's visible, then you're going to want to slowly pick the edges of the scab until it's closed in as far as it's going to and then you may need to stretch the skin over the bone. Or, you may not. By picking the edges, I just mean that you can take a little nick here, wait a day, and take a little nick there. It'll just keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller, albeit agonizingly slowly. But that's so little wound left that you can stop worrying about it as being a wound and just treat it like you would a slightly scabbed knee.

The beeping is normal and her voice will change eventually (within a few months at the very most). I've known at least one person who named their pet pigeon "Beeper" due to the sounds made at that age.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

I just want to add as well, you are doing a wonderful job with Petunia. She certainly has come a long way with your love and care.

All the best,

Ron


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## JoAnne Guille

*Almost Midnight!*

Boy I sure seem to be keeping late hours recently. It's funny how you forget things, even though I knew it was a horrible wound I was shocked when I flipped the "pages" on the thread back and looked at Petunias original wound!
O.K. I under stand about the scrapped knee theory, so I will poke at the edges to open them and keep the healing process going. When the scab fell off the other night I was dabbing at the hole because it was slowly seeping blood and I could see the bone. It looks to be much further back then when I originally sewed it up. I guess there must be new tissue growing around it.
Petunia is recieving amoxicillan twice a day now, 5 mg./dose in a bit of water and plain yougart. She eats like a pony!

My little "beeper" started making new noises today. My kids were sitting outside by her cage and called me over. She still "beeps" to me but while she was in her cage looking at her seed pile she was sort of coo-cackling like a little chicken. We all got quite the kick out of it. There was Petunia ankle deep in seed scuffling through craning her neck and doing a chicken imatation.

We have deep piles of clover in our lawn so that is where I took her for her walkies. It's under a huge old williow tree. There are always birds of some sort in the willow so Petunia had her head on an angle most of the time, trying to see the birds I imagine.

Well Petunia is all fluffed up in bed. So I guess I'll follow suit and go fluff up in mine. I have gotten into the habit of making her a bed each night. It's just a folded up tea towel with paper towels on top of it but Petunia knows what it's for so after her evening dose of meds she heads for it when I put her back in her cage. Smart girl............Night all.......thanks so much..JO


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## JoAnne Guille

*One to Go!*

Today Petunia pulled out one of the stiches I put in a few days ago and everything looks just fine! I don't need to replace that stich because the flesh underneath is covering the bone and everything looks just Jim Dandy! Just one more stich to go. I think I'll give her one more day (tomorrow) of antibiotics and then I'll cut loose on that too. I am amazed at her recovery rate!!! I am also amazed at how a little bird who is held as the symbol of peace and love in this and many other societys throughout time could be so unbelievably brave and tough. What a gal!!

I heard Petunia coo for the first time today. She was anserwing a mourning dove. (We have a pair nesting in the Black Walnut tree)...

Thankyou everyone so much!!!!! I will keep you posted and I think it won't be long before the big day when the last stich is out. I am still a bit mystified at why her tail feathers are bleeding occasionaly. The only one who really handels her is myself aside from the kids holding her for her meds and they are very carefull as well. However!! Small potatoes compared to all the rest she has been through...................have a goodnight everyone......JO


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## Reti

Glad Petunia is doing so great. You've done a fantastic job with her.
How many days did you give her the amoxicillin now? If it is less than 7 days I would complete the whole course of treatment.

Reti


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## JoAnne Guille

*More medicine?*

Actually it has jest been 7 days since Petunia has been on the Amoxicillin...before that it was Keflex. She's doing so well now I wanted to diconticue becasue I have ahd to force feed ther the medicines and I know she hasn't particularly enjoyed those sessions.


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## Pidgey

Well, then, it's time she graduated to a fully-responsible immune system, then! Honestly, she should be fine now as it doesn't take much when you're living "The Life of Reilly". As a matter of fact, as many hearts as she's stolen, she's really a "one-armed bandit"!

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

After a long term course of antibiotics it's good to build them back up with some probiotics added to their diet for a few days. I usually just open one of the capsules we use ourselves and sprinkle a little over oil glistened seeds. Where you take a high quality very fresh oil, I use olive, and very lightly coat the seeds with a little so the probiotic powder adheres.

All the best,

Ron


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## JoAnne Guille

*I will keep in touch*

For as many times as I've said thankyou, I still can't say it enough. I will let you know how things are going, that last stich is still in and there was some bleeding today on the wound but I think maybe she was just preening a little to much in that area. I'll keep her on a very fortified diet, probably forever since I think she deserves it. I put her on my shoulder today and walked around carefully. She did very well! I'll go slowly because I know her balance is off but there is nothing wrong with her grip!
Both Petunia and I are big fans of "Pigeon-Talk" and we're going to hang around in the background reading, everyone is marvelous in this little corner of the world! I'm not really wrapping things up totally yet. Petunia is certainly well out of the woods and I still can't believe the journey we've taken together so far with the guidance of the "angels". So thankyou...all of you angels..................love Petunia and JO


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## Feefo

HI JoAnne,

It is very good of you to give these regular updates, I know that many of us are fans and are reassured by regular reports. I hope that you will be able to keep us updated.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking

*Hi JoAnne,

Yes, many of us are reading your posts, nothing useful to add, but cheering you on in the background!*

I put her on my shoulder today and walked around carefully. She did very well! I'll go slowly because I know her balance is off but there is nothing wrong with her grip!

*Yep, I have felt that grip...ouch...sometimes. Skye left some nice scratches on my shoulder Monday and I had on short sleeves and a sunburn!*

. Petunia is certainly well out of the woods and I still can't believe the journey we've taken together so far with the guidance of the "angels". So thankyou...all of you angels..................love Petunia and JO[/QUOTE]


*It has been a long (but loving) journey for you & Petunia, and a struggle at times, but what results! We have all had our journeys with pigeons and doves, that is what brought us to this wonderful website. You have done a remarkable job with Petunia, and you can really now relax and enjoy the rewards of your labor.

Please do update us and of course a picture too wouldn't hurt. Thank you!*


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## Lin Hansen

Trees Gray said:


> *Hi JoAnne,
> 
> Yes, many of us are reading your posts, nothing useful to add, but cheering you on in the background!*
> 
> *It has been a long (but loving) journey for you & Petunia, and a struggle at times, but what results! We have all had our journeys with pigeons and doves, that is what brought us to this wonderful website. You have done a remarkable job with Petunia, and you can really now relax and enjoy the rewards of your labor.
> 
> Please do update us and of course a picture too wouldn't hurt. Thank you!*



Treesa took the words right out of my mouth!

Outstanding job with Petunia, Jo.

Linda


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## Pidgey

I'm going to add that you do need to be very careful holding her or letting her stand on you with any height. I have a bird who once had a very frozen shoulder. She jumped out of my hands that time and only the good wing extended. The result was that her body rolled to the hurt side in midair and then went straight to the ground with no slowing whatsoever and smacked on her hurt side. It's a little hard for a pigeon to make a lot of different expressions but I definitely saw pain, shock and suffering that time. With a lot of physical therapy, I finally unfroze the wing enough that she could make it down at least maintaining an even keel. Petunia is never going to have the benefit of that possibility. If she falls, her instinct will always be to extend the good wing and it's never aerodynamically going to work. Just be very careful.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

Pidgey has a point. Even though Mr. Squeaks has a wing and a half and has become stronger with time, not having a full right wing can make a difference when he thinks he can fly from high to low. He's been lucky so far with his landings...

You have done a remarkable job and the site does grow on one. Updates are always welcomed with pictures too!  

Hugs to you and Petunia! I will look forward to future updates!


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## Feather17

Jo-
Do keep up with your updates. Seriously, you may not know it but this thread has over 1700 views! You and Petunia have really captured all of our hearts.
This is a wonderful story and much more compelling than any reality show!
I could even see a children's book coming out of this! 
Jo, you're a doll and Petunia is a sweetie, even her name is adorable. 
Do keep up your posts and photos. Your fans and friends would miss you if you lefti!
You've really come a long way and we've all been with you in spirit!
Keep up the good work and Petunia, stay healthy. 
All the best-
Martha


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## JoAnne Guille

*Hello from Petunia and Jo*

I was hoping to have every last feather in on Petunia before I sent another picture but she's still sprouting more! When the last one is finally in no one (at a glance) will even realise that she has a missing wing! She is still beeping but has now graduated to a full fledged "coo" actually is sounds more like....."umm....COOOOO...beep............umm...COOOOO.....beep" She still doesn't have the slightest intrest in any greens I present her with but has found a treat that she pounds down. Corn. Fresh picked, right off the cob. And her in southwestern Ontario we have plenty so I've frozen quiet a few ears for her till next season. Boy that is sure is helping to put the weight on her! I'll post another picture in a few days. I'm going to give her a bath tonight. Poor Petunia she hasn't had a bath for well over a week! I have a small shop out her in the country, we cleared a cow pature after moving here from Vancouver Island almost three years ago, built what is called a pole barn I have no idea why it's called that the sides are made of sheeted steel) and opened a little shop featuring home and garden decor. I make most of the the products. My husband goes to auctions and picks up old chairs, tables, barnboard whatever and I make something out it. I make soap and candels and all kinds of stuff. The shop is only in it's second year and being as we are out here in country business would be non-existant if it were not for an established "destination location" just down the road. When thier season is over so is mine. But someday people will know who I am and come down the road just to visit my shop. Everything takes time. The reason I'm telling you all of this is to explain why I have a been lax on e-mailing what's going on. Last week for example I was out making two post angels for a special order and didn't come into the house until 3:45 A.M. two days later I was slicing my last batch of soap at 2 A.M. So I'm afraid I haven't even had time to check the daily wether report let alone type anything...shame on me and I'm sorry. I'll send another photo of Petunia in a few more days. Her featheres are a bit grungy looking still, from all the greasy antibiotic ointment I was plastering her with at the beginning and lo and behold she now has a tail. Even that was all pulled out when I first found her. I let her sit on my shoulder when I'm sitting but I don't walk around much since since I'm afraid she'll do a nose dive it she falls off me.

I'm thinking maybe next year I'll make Petunia a funky little cage and she can spend her "working day" in the shop.And that's a good idea Martha, maybe this winter I'll write up her story and put it along side her cage in the shop.
Move over ".... Little Engine that Could" here comes "Petunia..the little dove who would"....love Jo and Petunia


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## Feefo

She looks absolutely wonderful! Thank you so much for the update!


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## Skyeking

Hi Jo!

Petunia certainly has come a long way, she looks great!

Thanks for sharing.


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## mr squeaks

Thanks so much, Jo, for taking the time to update us! I know you and Petunia will have a WONDERFUL LIFE! She looks just great! LOVED YOUR PICS!

How fun...she will be able to "supervise" in your shop!

A stop in now and then with pictures would be great!

HUGS TO YOU BOTH!!


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## Pat Wolf

*moving story*

What a moving story. I just found this post and I've been glued reading and looking at the pictures and trying NOT to go to the last page to see how Petunia is doing. The pictures you have posted (and Pidgey) of their wounds are grusome. I applaud you for being brave enough for what you had to do to help these birds. I DOOOOOO have one question tho. I know with humans we use anathesia as we could go into shock and even die. How is it these tiny birds do not need anthesia. I'm just really curious.

I took a sparrow to the vet several times to help a dangling leg which after treatment needed to be amputated and I never thought to even ASK if she used anathesia, now I'm guessing she didn't. BTW, this sparrow was one of 2(Lucy and Ethel), that custodians removed from an air conditioning unit and I raised. One was released successfully and one had to stay with me until her death about a year later. She never really grew to the full size of the other sparrows, but she had a happy life and made us happy also.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Joanne, 

Petunia is coming along very nicely indeed, she looks like a very different and happier bird The new feathers coming in are nice and white as they should be and she does look heavier

Good work and thank you for the update on her!


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## TAWhatley

What a wonderful update, Jo! Great pictures too .. you and Petunia are both just lovely! You have done a truly awesome job with Petunia!

Terry


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## Reti

Lovely pics. She is soooo beautiful.

Reti


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## pdpbison

Hi Jo, 


Wonderful!


She looks so pretty...

The 'Corn' picture is great...that really is a charmer, mid-bite, as it were...


Good going..!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen

Jo,

Thanks so much for the pictures and update! You and Petunia are a couple of real beauties!

Glad to hear that you've been away and busy for such a good reason -- establishing your business (which I'm sure will be successful). I'm sure someone like you who has shown such a "can do" attitude, especially with Petunia and her injuries, will have no trouble at all establishing a thriving shop.

Know you are busy, but please don't be a stranger and stop in and let us know (and show us) how things are going.

You did a wonderful job.

Linda


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## Feather

Jo,

Thank you for the up date and pictures. She is just beautiful! No dought about it, she really loves the corn.

Good luck on your little shop. If you fix things as well as you did that little dove, then people are going to be beating your door down.

Love to you and Petunia,
Feather


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## Maggie-NC

Jo, you and Petunia both are lovely  . It is wonderful to see Petunia thriving like she is after going through so much. You have done a remarkable job with her.

Lots of luck with your business.


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## Amber_uk

try and contact cyntiha she will know what to do xxxx get well soon pidgy xxx


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## Pidgey

Put a smile on my face for the day! Happy to hear the good news.

Pidgey


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## Feather17

Jo-
Great to hear from you and Petunia! Sounds like you're both doing well.
Good luck with your business-maybe you should start something on line too! 

And continued good health, Petunia. You're a lucky bird; you certainly found the right home!
Do keep in touch! It's always nice to hear a success story!
Best Wishes Always,
Martha


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

Been out of the country for the last week and what a great update to come home to. As the others have said, you certainly have done a wonderful job with this beautiful little angel of yours.

All the best,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx

Joanne, i read your thread after you posted on mine to rread this. what a miracle, really, and i dont even belive in miracles. the pic with her all wrapped up in an ace bandage is so cute!!! i mean, sad with the circumstances but too cute too.
i love to read about good outcomes on here because it tells me that there is NEVER a reason to give up with a bird, and i doubted myself so many times with my pidgey if it was the right thing to do...... and reading this, even though my outcome was different, i know it was....
thanks so much, and keep up the good fight....


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## JoAnne Guille

*Hi from Petunia and Jo*

 Hi eveyone.....well I'm not sure what I did wrong but I just lost my whole text I spent the last hour typing, it's floating around in the ozone layer somewhere so I'll write it again!!!Grrrr  

Petunia has had a complete moult, not that she ever stops. It would appear that she keeps so sparkling clean by dropping feathers, dove dandruff and poop constantly. I just have to keep up with her enviroment staying as pristine as she is. I had hoped with time her palette might mature but I still haven't found any greens she seems interested in. Her menu revolves around dove seed and fresh corn. Pretty boring to my tastes but to each her own. What she lacks in vitamins from the usual, I try to make up for by keeping her water filled with the reccomended birds vitamins.
Petunia has graduated to a low perch as you'll see in the photos. She spends her nights sleeping on her futon (which I have aptly dubbed her Poo-ton!). Her cage is in front of a big picture window. If it's sunny out she sun bathes (last picture). On a real sunny day she gets down on the floor and fluffs up. She hasn't asked me for a beach towel yet but she's welcome to one. What a sweet natured little girl. Even my dogs don't get her excited. As a matter of fact the only one who seems to cause her any distress is Indy my lovebird. He wears his heart on his sleeve and if he can sneak over to her he tries to preen her feathers. She reacts (also in photo) by giving him the dove "brush off". So much for unrequited love! By the way I only put Indy in her cage for the photo so you could see what I mean. I keep him away since he upsets her.

Petunia has an ear for music. I take her upstairs to play guitar for her. I put her on the bed while I get things set up. Once I start to play she lays down and gives me her full attention, she dosen't even preen. Her own song has graduated to a full mature dove call. Coo-ooo-oooooooo....(small beep for the inhale)......Coo-ooo-ooooooooooooooooo. We haven't worked out her singing while I'm playing but give us time. Petunia also seems to enjoy watching T.V. with my kids. Whoever is holding her takes a good amount of paper towel for the lap since she likes to "relax" totally while viewing along with the rest of the family. (I don't watch much T.V. myself since I'm always burning the candle at both ends so she's sort of a Mom stand in)
By the way, anyone know how long doves live? I can't imagine life without my music buddy and listening to her sing while I'm buzzing around the house.

I don't carry her around on my shoulder as I thought I would. Petunia still thinks she can fly and I've had more than one catch the falling dove episodes to satisfy me that her safest way of transport in cradeled in my hand against my chest with one hand cupped over top. She'll sit on my finger if we are sitting down but she "takes a taxi" if we go anywhere in the house or outside. Not that we're outside much, unless she's under my coat. It's getting chilly out. I still take her into my workshop where she sits on her grapevine perch and watches me while I work but we have a heater in there.

All in all life has settled down to a normal pace. 
The most adventuresome exploits she gets into are deciding which side of her body gets preened first in the morning after the cage cover is off and she has walked over and jumped up on her perch while I clean her cage and that suits me just fine.
We'll drop a note and pictures again. Petunia and I are always hovering in the background reading the Pigeon Forum posts...I read them to her occasionally but so far she hasn't had too many coments to offer other than to tell me to send you her love....as I do........ta ta for now....JO
P.s. I'm having trouble attaching the photos.....I'll send this for now and attach the photos to a new reply just after. I don't want to take a chance on losing this whole thing again!


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## JoAnne Guille

*Petunia Pics*

  Well here we go againIt's 10:30 A.M. and I'm still sitting here in my housecoat trying to get these photos off!!!

 O.K. I have GOT to go shower and get on with the day...PLEAASE SOMEONE.... When I hit the manage attachments key to try and send pics I get a pop-up blocked icon and nothing opens to allow me to fetch the photos...I tried de attaching the pop up blocker but now all I'm getting are ads (irritatieng) and still nothing going out. I'll try running my spyware cleaner for the next hour while I get my beans in the bag for the day! Any tips would be very very much appriciated.love JO


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## Feather

Jo Ann,

It is so good to hear from you and wonderful little Petunia. I have lost many a story to cyber space as well. I will be checking in again and again to see her pictures. I know that you are not a woman that gives up easily.

Feather


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## JoAnne Guille

*Petunia Pics (I hope)*

Well here I go again..and again...and again..JO







HOORAY!!! SUCESS....I'M GOING TO HAVE TO OPEN TWO NEW THREADS TO SEND THE REST THOUGH.


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## mr squeaks

Hi Jo! Ditto on the lost stuff (there must be a "lost" computer file miles long out "there" somewhere!!!)

Wish I could help on the pics, but I'm lucky HUEY (my computer) turns on and gets me from e-mail to site with a few clicks! 

While I'm here, though, would like to say I SO enjoyed your update! Petunia sounds just great and quite spoiled as ALL pet pijies and dovies should be! ROFL  

Keep us informed and HOPEFULLY, a computer whiz (there are LOTS -i.e. most everyone, but me, on this site!) will be flying in soon!


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## JoAnne Guille

*Petunia pics (more)*

here's the next two


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## JoAnne Guille

*And last but not least*

Petunia snoozing in the sun...........yes Petunia Mother has got your photos out!....JO


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## JoAnne Guille

*Picture to go....*

With the first story floating around up there...image one seems to have vanished..at least on my computer, so I'll resend.


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## JoAnne Guille

*By the way*

Something I forgot to mention on my re-sent story. Petunia is white except for the little soft greyish beige ring 3/4 way round her neck. You can see it in the last photo if you look closely...I thought she was a white Java dove? Am I wrong? Albino ring neck...........? It dosen't really matter cause I know what she really is.....she's mine.....JO


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## TerriB

*Well done!*

JoAnne, you and Petunia have come a long way!!! Congratulations on such an effective recovery. She is really a beautiful bird and you are lucky to have each other!


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## TAWhatley

Great photos, JoAnne and Petunia! Petunia sure looks like a ringneck dove (streptopelia rosaria) to me.

Terry


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## mr squeaks

Petunina is JUST STUNNING! Wow! One would NEVER know she's the same bird!

I know you have named her Petunia...do you think maybe "she" is a PetuniO???


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## Skyeking

Hi JoAnne,

I REALLY enjoyed reading the update. What a beauty she/he has turned into!

I'm glad you and your children are enjoying her comapny and that Petunia is making the adjustment to house dove, ....just priceless to hear!  

Thank you for taking the time to share with us.


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## JoAnne Guille

*Well!*

O.K. Mr. Squeeks...fill me in....how do I tell..........it's o.k. petunias' ears are covered..........hmmmmmmm....that might explain "her" reaction to Indy's advances....I know HE is a HE!..!


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## Feefo

Petunia is really beautiful and healthy too. She was so lucky to be found by you, I don't think many people would have had the guts to pull her through like you did.

Cynthia


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## Reti

Great pics. She is absolutely adorable.
I see the ring in the pic, guess she is a ringneck dove.
Whatever, she is so beautiful.

Reti


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## mr squeaks

JoAnne Guille said:


> O.K. Mr. Squeeks...fill me in....how do I tell..........it's o.k. petunias' ears are covered..........hmmmmmmm....that might explain "her" reaction to Indy's advances....I know HE is a HE!..!


That's why I thought "she" might be a "he" - because of how she reacts to Indy. Then again, it's hard to tell. I know, with pigeons, they will attack a mirror and do their roo-coo-cooing with spreading of tail feathers. HOWEVER, some have mentioned that they have HENS who will sometimes do the same thing and are thought to be males until an EGG is laid!

SO CONFUSING. Egg laying is the only (in some cases) SURE way to tell.

With Squeaks, I just had a "feeling" he was a male and is he EVER! The man I took him to when I first found him, checked the length of his legs/feet and said I had a male.

There was a thread awhile back that went into the "sexing" bit and everyone had opinions. I think the concensus was: laying an egg is the ONE sure way to tell. (IF there happen to be ANY males who lay an egg, well, there goes THAT theory!)

THEN again, Indy may "know" something we don't! ROFL  

I guess only time will tell! You WILL keep us updated, right???


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## JoAnne Guille

*Ah So..Confusion say...*

I've always had some sort of hookbill bird in my life and for sure egg laying was the only true key, aside from a few educated guess by the experts. So how do I know Indy is a he? Well interestingly enough the only exception to the rule with hookbill are lovebirds. Short of actually laying an egg when lovebirds hit sexual maturity the females start ripping up paper or whatever they can get there beaks on and stuff the shreadings under their wings to carry around..maybe it's a female lovebirds interpretation of a portable hotel room.(?) In Indy's case he just started doing the "hubba hubba" dance.I thought he was having some kind of epileptic seizure (no kidding I had an Amazon parrot by the name of J.R. who was a borderline epileptic....wound up a barbituate junkie for 23 years....that's the control drug. Thousands of healthy birds out there but I wound up with J.R. whom I adored and who adored me...but the rest of the world (including my family) could all go to hell.) anyway.........Indy's mating dance is quiet the ritual...I use to have a blanket in his bed (cardboard box attached to the side of his cage that he sleeps in) untill he kept throwing it out onto the floor and "danced" it to death. My 13 year old son Evan (whom Indy is also very fond of) gets disgusted because everytime he puts his hand in the cage Indy starts doing the "hubba hubba"!
It's nothing that would be X rated..really...the "dance" is amazing..especially the head movements! Mind you if I don't distract him he'll start doing his Elvis Presley on the Ed Sulivan show imatation and so I have to wrap things up...get the hook! Fortunatley it dosen't take too much to distract Indy although he is the most obstinent insistant bird I have ever met once he decides he's going to do something. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Maby this DOES explain Petunias' rejection of him! Particularly since Indy will try to dance with ANYONE or ANYTHING when the mood strikes him..hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......very interesting!


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## Pidgey

With as cute as she was in the bubblebath picture, I'm hoping that Petunia's a "she".

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille

*Testing!*

Speaking of the bubble bath....Kendra (my daughter) just came into the room and asked why I don't have a picture beside my name...so this is just to test and see if I "edited" my profile correctly.


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## JoAnne Guille

*Rats!*

I'll try again later.


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## Feather

JoAnn, 
You did it! The avatar is so gentle, it doesn't even look real. It looks like an air brush painting from Johnson & Johnson. (Though I remember the picture quite well)

I love the way you write of your life with Petunia. She really does look healthy and happy. A far cry from the picture that I first saw of her. 

Again thank you for the Awe Inspiring update and pictures,
Feather


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## JoAnne Guille

*Success!*

Hey, that's a pretty cool feature! Just so that I don't feel like I'm "wasting space" in the forum There's something else I'll mention. With all the uproar that was going on revolving around Petunia when she first "flew" into my life there was something I never noticed until today. If you look closly at the picture of her on my hand you will notice it too and to be honest it was when I looked at the uploaded picture that I spotted it. Her middle toe on the same side as the injury was broken and since I never even noticed it the poor baby has had heal crooked. Oh well, so she'll never type! To bad though, I could have reset and wrapped it. It's probably for the best though, with all she went through it would have only hampered the one thing she was stil capable of...standing.....JO


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## jazaroo

Hi JoAnne,

I must say, your little Petunia certainly has blossomed under your loving care. I did a quick search and according to this link, http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/How_Long.html , Doves can live up to around twenty years. 

I am so very happy things turned so well.

All my best to you and yours,

Ron


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## mr squeaks

JO - You MUST continue your updates about Petunia(?) and Indy whenever you can spare the time!

Like, Victor, another member, your updates are like soap operas! The more you post, the more we want to hear!

Will Petunia be a HE? Will Indy continue to be fascinated with her(?)? What happens if Petunia is really a "HE," will Indy still be interested?

Well, I guess you get the idea! So keep those updates and pictures coming!  

BTW, congrats on your Avatar!


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## pdpbison

Hi JoAnn, 


Wonderful...!

Petunia is so beautiful...! 


Green-wise, my ( were wild, in here for recovery, now for some reason decided to be friendly) Morning Doves really love their flaked Purple Dulce, and with a little encouragement have been very interested to peck off bits of Endive, Kale, Mustarg Greens or other fresh Greens, and they have almost got the Pigeons here interested to do likewise too.

I was able to get them started by hamming up how yummy these are, and tearing off tiny bite-sized bits...and soon they were tearing off their own bites right out of my sandwhiches, so, I give them their own 'Leaf' and everyone is happy.

Petunia..! Yea!

Good going JoAnn, such a wonderful update.

She looks so sweet!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## christina11

I just looked at the first photo of Petunia and she looked so horrible,  

Now I scanned all the way to the 12th posts only to see a most beautiful little dove with a full recovery and im most posative in the best home possible!  

Im so glad she made it threw, she has turned into such a wounderful little dove!

(((Hugs from me to her!!)))


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## Lin Hansen

JoAnn,

So nice to hear from you and with such a wonderful update!

Please don't be a stranger!

Linda


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## Maggie-NC

Joanne, thanks so much for the update on the beautiful Petunia. I'm going to say Petunia is a boy because most of the really sweet doves I've had turned out to be boys. 

You have done such a wonderful job saving her and I have enjoyed reading all your posts. Please keep us up-to-date on how things continue.


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## Feather17

Joanne- It's so good to hear from you and Petunia. She/or he is gorgeous! What an amazing bird! And all thanks to you! You are truly an angel for saving her. 
Keep us updated! As you can see we all enjoy hearing from you AND you almost have enough material for your book!!
Best Wishes!!!!


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## Luffy

I don't know how I came across this thread, but what an experience it has been reading it. When I saw the first image of the injured bird, I was scared as hell. Didn't notice at first the thread was that old. Anyway then I realized and read through and through. You would not believe when I saw the beautiful grown up pics of petunia it was an emotional experience of some kind. It has been told many times in this thread, but I would like to appreciate the great job you have done.

Can I request an update and some of her cute stories.


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