# No walls loft aka Pigeon Lung Disease



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Okay. The title probably intrigued you. Good.
Here are my questions.

Many pigeon fanciers suffer from "Pigeon Lung Disease", aka Bird Breeders Disease aka Pigeon Fanciers Lung, etc, etc.

I am one. That is why I gave up the birds a quarter century ago. But, being the stubborn person that I am, and having gone that quarter of a century constantly thinking about them, looking to the skies as I drive around, and seeing my framed diplomas from back then hanging on my wall, I am back.

But before getting "back" into the birds, I did extensive research on this Pigeon Lung Desease situation. I found that the bulk of the research is being done in Great Britain and other locations other than the U.S.

Not surprising really, as there are many "over there" participating and few "over here" participating in the pigeon sport/s.

What did surprise me is that here in the U.S., every doctor will say that you have to get rid of the birds. period. But "over there", they understand the attachment that flyers can and do have with their hobby, so they really don't even mention getting rid of the birds. Instead, they stress how to keep in the hobby and deal with the "disease".

I could give you links and medical names and terms, but they are available easily if you just google "Pigeon Lung Desease", so I won't bother.

Instead, I will ask some rather mundane questions that address normal day to day "operations" for someone with this disease and still is in the hobby.

As a side note, I recently went to another mans loft and met a member of his club, who was a rather gruff fellow with a very raspy voice. This fellow is approximately in his late fifties but more likely in his 60's. Anyway, his take on this desease is that it is hog wash. Something that the doctors have made up, to get rid of people who raise and maintain flying rats, as well as making money off of "us" by making up this imaginary medical problem. I keep hearing his very raspy voice though.

The gentleman whom I was visititing is only in his twenties and also has this same very raspy voice, and stated that he has medical problems breathing and has been advised by two doctors to give up his birds, but he "ain't giving up his birds for nuthin". He does not take any measures like masks and such.

Okay, sorry to drag on. Anyway, all of the research indicates that if a person wears a good quality mask (not one of those loose things like surgeons wear during operations, but one that has actual filters (N95's or better) on it and fits air tight on the face), and one wears a lab coat and hat when with the birds, and avoids cleaning the loft as much as possible, and (this is the point that leads to my questions) has an open air loft, then they will have a good chance of keeping their pigeons and not suffering from the disease.

An open air loft as they tend to describe would best be described as something like one of those fencing or metal cages you would see some parrots in at a zoo in the warmer weather climates. A roof and four walls of fencing. Maybe with a half wall of wood somewhere near the sleeping perches, just to be a small wind break. In other words, a big walk in cage.

These medical personnel who are studying this disease and attempting to help those of us who suffer from it, state that no one suffers from this disease that is often at a park frequented by large flocks of feral pigeons, and that pigeons were made by nature to live out in the elements, with very little shelter and they do just fine.

I should state here for those new and unfamiliar with this disease that some never get it. Some get it real bad and develope chronic breathing problems, and some just get a little sick when they clean their lofts, etc. I almost died way back when, after cleaning my loft. I was taken in an ambulance and the ambulance personal thought I was having cardiac arrest. It was in fact a hyper allergenic reaction and I was treated with steroids, much like someone who is allergic to bee stings may be treated, when stung. 

There are many degrees of this disease. It is not related to Bird Flu or any of those other well know bird diseases. Pigeon Lung Disease comes from breathing in the "bloom" from the birds feathers and from minute particles flowing around in the air (too small to be seen with our eyes) that has come from their feces. One or both can cause this progressive problem. I am attempting to put all of this in normal everyday language, and could, but will not, repeat others medical and scientific language. That can easily be looked up.

So, finally to my questions.

Do racing pigeons really need to be kept in a loft mostly protected from the elements, in order to win?

Doesn't it make sense that in the long run, pigeons housed and bred in this type of open air loft would be "hardened" by living thusly, and be in better health than those pampered?

Keeping a loft dry and draft free is the "norm", but can not a very good case be made that it is very different from feral pigeons who have flourished over the ages, and additionally, wouldn't this make our bids "softer" and more prone to not have the immune systems they could have?

Wouldn't pigeons kept in this type of open air "loft" (not really a loft, but a large walk in cage), make the birds hardier and more likely to be able to handle bad weather days, thus help with the smash race syndrome?


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

BFL is a sensitive subject here on PT since a couple of our members suffer from it. From the research that we have done, and the doctors I have spoken too, here is our informational research on protection.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/protection-from-bird-fanciers-lung-doctor-recommended-28566.html

Some very personal experiences:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f24/u...ease-28590.html?highlight=bird+fancier's+lung
Pictures of happy, healthy birds in an open air loft with only one wall.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f24/n...ess-of-dovitude-28192.html?highlight=fortress
Note, the retreat area in the roof where they can sleep and hide from storms/drafts. Very important to have one of those if you are doing a no-wall loft.

Perspectives on clean vs dirty lofts and open vs closed lofts. Open = healthier birds and healthier you.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/in-the-loft-8497.html?highlight=bird+breeder's+lung


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I can't speak from the pigeon racing viewpoint as such, but...

Wild Rock Doves (i.e., those in their natural environment) make their home in very well sheltered places. Those who dwell on rocky coasts will usually make caves their home. I have also seen them make a home in deserted stone cottages. They are certainly hardy, but not foolhardy 

Ferals will also seek out sheltered places whenever they can, be it in empty buildings, under bridges, on balconies.... The less fortunate ones may have no choice but to sleep in more exposed situations, of course. I have seen ferals making their home way down in crevices in a long-dry well, giving them plenty of protection from the elements.

What we are seeing is pigeons acting instinctively, so whether they be racing pigeons, rescued pigeons, whatever, it's up to us to provide them with an approximation of the environment they would seek out for themselves.

We have many rescued ferals and unwanted racers in our aviary. They have a converted shed at one end, and a shelter open only to the aviary itself at the other. These are their 'caves', and it often looks as if we have far fewer birds than we actually do just because so many of them like to spend much of their time in their chosen 'cave'.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello,

I am at the moment trying to live with pigeon lung disease and my pigeons but my case was rather complicated by the fact that I am a rescuer and have had poorly pigeons living inside.

I have joined this group: 

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/breederslung/

They have given me a lot of advice on how to avoid antigens, but they thought that the British Pigeon Fanciers Medical Research Team's advice was irresponsible and that I am playing with fire by keeping my pigeons.

One member mentioned that a friend of hers had Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis, got rid of his birds (I don't think they were pigeons) and made a full recovery. But then his grandaughter asked him to start keeping birds for her 4H (?) project and that killed him.

Pigeon Lung disease can be a life threatening disease. I can't part with my pigeons because they are rescues and I promised to keep them safe, but I would strongly advise anyone who has already been sensitised to pigeon protein and does not currently have any birds to avoid getting more birds. It isn't worth the risk.

For those that already have high sensitisation towards pigeons and, like me, can't part with the birds, it is best to keep the birds in a well ventilated aviary outside, to use a Power cap or air cap when with the birds, to use gloves, overalls with a hood while cleaning the birds out and to leave all
"cleaning clothing" outside the house.

Cynthia


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

My aviary has plenty of 'caves' for the doves to hide in when the wind whips through. The wind carries off the dust and this arrangement is much better for myself. I had asthma before getting birds, and I'm not taking risks with my lungs.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am one who suffered from the condition. I have an open aviary where I can handle all my birds, as well as opening the loft up, and have a husband to help with cleaning. I try to avoid bringing pigeons inside, but still have to on occasion for rehab.

Pigeons must have the same requirements they always had, dry and draft free, as well as predator free lofts. You can't do without, yes, ferals survive in terrible conditions, but most don't live very long (with a few exceptions), unless they exist in ideal conditions, but their biggest enemies (right now)are human beings.

I use nutritional supplements to help support lungs and immune system, and a mask I wear, but only on occassion.


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## NitaS (May 26, 2007)

How long do you have to be exposed to pigeons before the condition sets in? What are the symptoms?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

The type of loft your talking about MIGHT be ok......depends on where you are. Treesa is in Florida. There's a BIG difference in weather in different parts of the US.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> How long do you have to be exposed to pigeons before the condition sets in? What are the symptoms?


Only a fraction of people that are exposed to pigeons get it and even then it takes years of exposure.

The symptoms vary according to whether the condition is acute, sub acute or chronic. If it is acute then it is easy to recognise as the person experiences flu like symptoms a few hours after exposure. Chronic is more insiduous, symptoms are a cough (often dry) and unintentional weight loss.

I have bought an oxymeter to keep track of my oxygen sats (Trees, they have gone as low as 77% this month , but tend to climb, sometimes to 91%).

Cynthia


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

"They" say You can keep your breeders on a wire floor, but racers need to be on a solid floor. I know someone who has their racers on wire floors and does quite well! I could go on and on about "they" say this and "they" say that. Well how good are "they" doing. Did they "test" it or just here it from "someone" and that made it gospel. You see, I don't care what "they" say! 

So what I would tell you is that if you want to try it try it. Don't let "them" tell you it can't be done. I would think it would work a lot better if you had a full roof and the top three or four feet of the walls there. this would shelter them, keep them out of direct draft and still alow for a very open loft.

I know what it is like when these birds have gotten into your blood and after being a part of your life for so long and then you have to live without them. You see I to have watched the skies for many year. This is my first year back in 18 years and my birds have won 8 of the 16 races.

If you choose to do this keep us informed on how it is going. If there is anything I can do to help just let me know.

Ace


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

It sounds like you have it all down - wind protection, roof, etc. I know of several people (including people in cold weather climes) that have 'open' lofts, and their birds do quite well.

Wire floors is another option - much less bloom settling.

You're right about doctors on "this side of the pond"  In Canada too - many say "get rid of the birds" as soon as you are diagnosed (heaven knows, I heard it enough). We didn't get rid of the birds - but I limited my exposure to them a lot. My family doctor says that now, you can't even tell I have P-L, and he laughs when he says "you still have the birds, don't you?" I stopped seeing the respirologist who kept telling me I'd never get better unless I got rid of them all. Heck, I had an allergist tell me that I had to move out of my house for a month, and go somewhere that had no animals at all - cats, dogs, birds - to see if I got better. Yeah - sure --- everyone I know has an animal of some sort. I stayed home, and got better.... LOL

Anyway - enough about me - yes, you can keep birds, yes, they can do well in an open loft. Yes, you can design your loft so that you rarely have to go inside - you can make it so that watering and feeding is done from the outside.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

NitaS said:


> How long do you have to be exposed to pigeons before the condition sets in? What are the symptoms?



We had pigeons for about 5-6 years before I started having any trouble. At first, it was just a cough in the mornings. Then, every so often after a long exposure to the birds (such as cleaning the lofts), I'd feel very ill in the evening, chills, fever, ache all over. The next morning, I'd be coughing up goo.

This progressed to a worsening condition, with trouble breathing, trouble sleeping (I'd have to have 4-5 pillows under my head to keep me 1/2 upright. I had a blood test for pigeon lung, which came back negative - turned out, it was a false negative test. I was quite ill for about two years, even though I'd already limited the amount of time I was in the lofts. At one point, I was hospitalized for 3-4 days, because I couldn't breathe properly, and couldn't walk more than 4-5 steps without stopping to catch my breath.

The best way to limit your chances of P-L is to always ALWAYS wear a mask in the loft, and to have 'loft clothes' - clothing that you remove when you're done in the loft, or even a loft coat that you can take off immediately afterwards, to reduce bloom exposure.


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## NitaS (May 26, 2007)

Thanks for the info. It's a shame that something that gives us so much enjoyment has the possibility of causing this! Think I'll invest in a coat and mask.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

The statistics of risk: How likely is it that I will get BBL, Farmer’s Lung, or any other form of Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis, if I am exposed to birds?
United States 
Resistance or susceptibility to infection following exposure varies. The incidence also varies considerably. 
The prevalence varies by region, climate, and farming practices. Hypersensitivity pneumonitis affects 0.4-7% of the farming population. The reported prevalence among bird fanciers is estimated to be 20-20,000 cases per 100,000 persons at risk. Studies document 8-540 cases per 100,000 farmers per year and 6000-21,000 cases per 100,000 pigeon breeders per year. Therefore, the risk of BBL for any bird fancier or keeper in the United States can be as low as 6% or as high as 20%. Please read the article by Gary Gleeson below very carefully and follow instructions to protect your health.
International 
The prevalence of farmer's lung in the United Kingdom is reported to be 420-3000 cases per 100,000 persons at risk. In France, the rate is 4370 cases per 100,000 persons at risk, and in Finland, the risk is 1400-1700 cases per 100,000 persons at risk.

What we do know, however, is that the real experts all agree that there is no tangible health risk to human beings from contact with pigeons:
Mike Everett, spokesman for the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds said, in The Big Issue Magazine, February 2001: 
“The whole ‘rats with wings’ thing is just emotive nonsense. There is no evidence to show that they (pigeons) spread disease.
The Chief Veterinary Officer, when addressing the House of Lords in 2000 on the issue of pigeons in Trafalger Square was asked if the large number of pigeons in the Square represented a health risk to human beings. The Chief Veterinary Officer told The House that in his opinion they did not.
Charlotte Donnelly, an American bird control expert told the Cincinnati Environment Advisory Council in her report to them: 
“The truth is that the vast majority of people are at little or no health risk from pigeons and probably have a greater chance of being struck by lightening than contracting a serious disease from pigeons.”
Guy Merchant, Director of The Pigeon Control Advisory Service (PICAS) says, when talking about the transmission of disease by pigeons: 
“If we believed everything we read in the media about pigeons and the farcical propaganda distributed by the pest control industry we would never leave our homes. The fact of the matter is that there is probably a greater risk to human health from contact with domestic pets such as cats, dogs and caged birds.”
David A Palmer (B.V.Sc., M.R.C.V.S) said in an article entitled ‘Pigeon Lung Disease Fatality and Health Risk from Ferals’:
“Obviously, since all these Allergic Extrinsic Alveolitis disease syndromes rely on the involved person having a very specific allergy before any disease, involving respiratory distress and very unusually death, can possibly be seen, it really makes absolute nonsense for a popular daily newspaper to suggest that pigeons present a health hazard and presumably need eliminating for the well-being of the nations health. If there was any real chance of pigeons spreading disease to human beings we would see epidemics amongst pigeon fanciers that race pigeons and spend much of their time in dusty pigeon lofts. We would also see all those involved with the rehabilitation of pigeons in wildlife hospitals worldwide dropping like flies. The facts speak for themselves.”

CAUSES:
It was not until 1965 that Pigeon Fanciers' Lung was first described in the scientific literature (2). Since then considerable research has been done into this and other forms of "Bird-Breeders' Lung" and new material continues to be published.
There are several schools of thought in the scientific community about the precise disease mechanisms. None of them have been conclusively proved. There is however general agreement that pigeon fanciers are a high risk group and that inhaling pigeon materials causes PFL to develop in some susceptible individuals. Other fanciers with similar exposure to pigeons do not develop the disease. There is no reliable method to predict who will be affected and who will not. Hopefully the scientists will eventually develop a reliable method but so far they have not. Until they do everyone exposed to pigeons should consider themselves at risk and take precautions to minimize the amount of pigeon materials they breathe in.
Exactly which pigeon materials cause the disease has not yet been proved. The leading contenders are droppings and feather bloom, but whatever the cause, the most important characteristic is that the particles must be small enough for a high proportion of them to reach and be deposited in the gas exchanging region of the lungs. For this to happen they must be less than 5 microns in diameter. A micron is one thousandth of a millimeter. For practical purposes this means that the particles with the potential to cause problems cannot be seen with the naked eye. Bloom particle size has been measured at approximately 1micron (3).
Every flyer has his or her own management methods. This paper cannot discuss them all. As you read this guideline consider what you do that puts you in a position where you may be breathing in pigeon materials.


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

philodice said:


> The statistics of risk: How likely is it that I will get BBL, Farmer’s Lung, or any other form of Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis, if I am exposed to birds?
> United States ........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................



hi philodice,

you have a very interesting research here and i am just wonderin' if you can give us a link to this find? i am thinking of e-mailing it to my next door neighbor whom I feel is starting to get scared of my loft.


thank you,

kalapati
San Diego
http://loftdekalapati.mypets.ws:81/Jview.htm


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> I use nutritional supplements to help support lungs and immune system, and a mask I wear, but only on occassion


.

Treesa,
I'm curious to know what nutritional supplements you use.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Just to put my two cents in. I live in a climate with four distinct seasons. Temps range from 0 to 100 degrees. My loft changes with the seasons. I have three windows, an open door and the top half of the east side wall open. I also have floor vent that can open and close on the west side of the loft. The windows are both on the north and south side of the loft. I keep between 40 and 60 birds in a 16x16 four quadrant space. 

In late spring I open everything up until early fall. Three windows the door, the floor vent are all wide open. I can feel the breeze moving through the whole loft. I can see the dust circulating through the loft, feathers moving around. During this time, I clean about once a week or every other week. 

In the winterish time all windows and the door are closed. I crack the floor vent and the East side is still open to the air. Air still circulates through. On nicer days the door is left open. I only clean every two to three weeks in the winter. I wear a cheap mask during this time period. 

My belief is that the loft must have plenty of openings that can be manipulated during different seasons. I am mildly effected by the dust when I clean or handle the birds. I can also observe the birds from outside the loft, When I water, feed, band, etc I spend the minimum time I can. 

As for health issues, I am a firm believer in air. Keep your birds from being over crowded and have plenty of air for them. Keep the loft dry and they will stay healthy. I do not vaccinate and only use antibiotics on unhealthy birds. I can also count the sick birds that I have had on one hand in the last four years. 

My thoughts are that the "no draft" rule should only apply to perches and nest boxes and that the rest of the loft have plenty of air flow. How many times do you see the birds sitting in the aviary enjoying the breeze? Better yet these guys fly 60 mph through the air. In my opinion a little air circulation does not hurt a bit. 

Randy


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Just an update, sort of. On my struggle to keep my birds.

I don't want to put one brand of in front of another, but I purchased this mask:

http://www.allergybegone.com/3m-51p71-respirator1.html

and these filters:

http://www.allergybegone.com/3m-5n11-particulate-filter.html

and have been wearing the mask when in close proximity to the birds. It seems to have helped a lot. I do wish I could get an answer to a specific question that has been on my mind concerning this, but have not been able to. The question is: If I can smell the pigeons (droppings or whatever), am I them being given a "dose" of the allergen (bloom or whatever)? Would that be a good rule of thumb?

I have had pet parrots for many years (kept in cages in the house), as well as a half dozen laying hens, which I kept in a 12 x 12 foot dog kennel attached to an 8 x 10 foot shed, where they roosted. I do not think that I have suffered from the parrot nor the chickens over these past 12 years of so that I have had them. I haven't noticed anything in that regard, even though from what I have read about this disease, that just about any bird (although some more than others) can bring on this disease and symptoms).

I have thought a lot about what precipitated the recent bad coughing and dizziness I have suffered since I got my pigeons again, for the first time since about 1984 or so. Now that I have reflected on it a bit, I remember that at the same time I got my pigeons delivered to me, I decided to give up my chickens (I wanted to use the shed and run they were in for a dog who was due to whelp), and I cleaned out that shed with a rake, shovel and broom. The dust from the chickens was flying a lot and I breathed in very much that day. The floor was covered in straw and with hindsight, I should have sprayed it down with the water hose before I cleaned it out, but I didn't because I have never had a problem with having the chickens and taking care of them (collecting eggs, etc).

I now firmly believe that my cleaning of the chicken coop initiated this latest affliction with the disease. I just automatically assigned "blame" to the pigeons because I already knew that I had a problem with them, from way back before I had the chickens or parrots.

So, for the past 5 weeks or so, I have had slight dizziness on occasion, and a persistant cough, which my doctor says is probably from the birds and is considering a chest xray for me, but she wants to investigate this disease further before she does. She is a new doctor to me also, and I gave her a print out from the internet to get her started on the right path concerning this disease, and importantly, how attached "we" are to our birds and hobby. I recently fired my old doctor for reasons unrelated to this condition (he gave me some medication for diabetes that my endocronologist stated was useless to me and possibly harmful). I also saw an ad on TV for this same drug and the ad specifically stated that type 1 diabetics should not be given this drug. Yet, he prescribed it for me.

Anyway, my cough is slowly going away, probably due to the mask I now wear, and I rarely go into my closed coop (I have a "no wall coop" also, for my breeders). I also have started (again) to work out at the gym, in order to build up my lungs and such.

It has been just a short time, but I think that I am on a winning path, which will allow me to keep my "poor mans race horses". which I dearly would love to do.

Wish me luck, as I wish luck to others with this problem.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

One thing to note -- and before you do any xrays and such ...

Pigeon lung can only definitely be diagnosed through a specialized blood test. Not regular allergy testing - but a test that looks for - I'm not 100% sure what - but believe antibodies or something that proves it is pigeon lung. Our normal medical coverage doesn't pay for that test - it's so specialized and uncommon, so has to be paid for out of pocket (unusual with the health coverage we have here). 

Yes, on occassion, the test will have a false-negative - that's what originally happened with me.

The respirologist I was seeing really had no idea what he was dealing with. He had the test run at my insistance, and totally discarded pigeon lung as being the problem. He sent me for xrays, cat-scans, more xrays, bronchoscopies, put me on 3-4 different types of medication, etc. For almost 2 years, I kept getting worse, and he refused to send me for another blood test, even though I asked him several times to repeat it, because he said the first one was negative, therefore there was no way I had pigeon lung.

I reached the point where I was so sick that I couldn't walk more than 10 feet without stopping to catch my breath, and walking upstairs was almost impossible. The respirologist booked me for a lung biopsy. I saw another doctor for a 2nd opinion before the surgery - and HE told me that based on the test results and Xrays, that I had something that would require a lung transplant in the near future.

Went for the biopsy - Allergic pneumonitis was the diagnosis (pigeon lung). Another specialist - another blood test - which confirmed the diagnosis. In other words -- there was a good chance that if the respirologist had listened and repeated the blood test, I wouldn't have had to have surgery.

Proper treatment (steroids), and I was on my way to good health. No, I don't see that respirologist anymore... lol.


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## DrElectron (Sep 19, 2008)

*Thanks...*


Hi Gang...

First, I would like to thank "ConditionFreak" for broaching this subject... The responses to this thread have been both thoughtful and enlightening... It is a subject that needs discussion and research in a rational manner... I think if this thread continues in this fashion, it should be made a sticky...

I do have a slight reaction to our hook bills that live in our house but would probably not have attributed it to the birds... I made several month long trips where I was not in contact with birds, and my symptoms would go away... On return home the effects of the bird dander would reappear then subside to a tolerable level... You can be sure that as I get back into pigeon keeping, I will be watching for any telltale symptoms... Because of this thread, I will also be practicing safe loft cleaning procedures... Thanks !!!

Keep-em-Flying...

Dr.E.


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