# Neighbours called Health Inspector



## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

My neighbour cut down their 50 foot cedars two years ago and my flock of 35 - 40 ferals now fly over their property. They are livid about this and this summer they put up a fishing line mesh barrior across their property (up to 15' height and 25' long). This captures all birds that fly into this invisible fence. They leave the birds there for hours at a time then come out and break the bird's neck. Sickening. I've sent pictures to OSPCA - no response yet.
Anyway... they replaced it last week with hanging shreaded flags and now I know why. They've sent a Public Health Inspector over to me to complain about the health risks assosicated with pigeon droppings. She left me a phone message and has now dropped off a photo copy of all these "potential" diseases.
I want to plan a rebuttal course of action and I wanted all of your suggestions/ information.

(sorry for the edit - my computer is doing weird things)

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

Julianne


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*I'm sorry that is horrible what they are doing to the birds*

I would try and move them to a nearby park, they will follow you on foot if it isn't to far. 

The following are quotes from credible experts with
the REAL FACTS about pigeons and public health:

"The New York City Department of Health has no
documented cases of communicable disease transmitted
from pigeons to humans." - Dr. Manuel Vargas, New York
City Department of Health.


# “We do have some concern about the indiscriminate
killing of pigeons.” “[For example, histoplasmosis
disease rates are] misleading and irrelevant, because
histo’s so ubiquitous. It’s in the soil, regardless of
whether pigeons are around or not...”- Dr. Marshall
Lyon, National Center for Infectious Diseases, Centers
for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta


# "Pigeons do not get avian influenza and don't carry
the virus," Dr. Cornelius Kiley, DVM, Canadian Food
Inspection Agency



"[...the Arizona Department of Health Services does]
not have any documented human cases of disease which
have been definitively linked to outdoor pigeons or
pigeon droppings. When cases of diseases are reported
(and by law [certain bird related zoonoses are]
reportable diseases), VBZD staff conduct complete
investigations to confirm the diagnosis and identify
the source of infection. …Our case investigation data
gathered so far, would suggest that pigeons are not
significant as a cause of human disease in Arizona."




# "I am not aware of any reported cases of diseases
that were transmitted by pigeons in Mohave County." -
Larry Webert, R.S., Mohave County Environmental Health
Division


# “We don’t see pigeon-related-disease problems...” “I
don’t think they’re seeing them anywhere..." - Bill
Kottkamp, Supervisor, Vector Control, St. Louis County
Health Department


# "'People worry that pigeons carry disease,' but
the danger is 'an exaggeration created by pest control
companies looking for business.'" - Guy Hodge,
Naturalist for the Humane Society of the United
States.


# "Pigeons are not a public health hazard. Nobody in
public health is losing any sleep over pigeons." - Dr.
Joel McCullough, Medical Director, Environmental
Health, Chicago Department of Public Health


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about your feral pigeons.

Click on the following:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org

Click on rock dove, then public health risks posed by wild pigeons.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

OMG, this is so sickening and unfortunately it is happening over and over again everywhere.
All I can suggest is stop feeding them and move them to another location. Your neighbor sounds like he is sick.
People just can't understand that pigeons don't pose any more health risk than any other bird.
I am so sorry you have to go through this.

Reti


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## pittsburgh24 (Jan 27, 2005)

*Endangers protected species*

Mention to your local wildlife protections or Humane Society that you saw protected species (if there are any in Canada) come into contact with it.
Don't give up, this is a very cruel death to the birds.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Jules,
This is SICKENING!!!! Don't call the SPCAs they cannot do anything about it but do get ahold of the APO (Animal Protection Officer). There HAS to be at least ONE for every distict in Canada. They will do a formal investigation on the matter and with you having pictures proves your case and can be passed into the hands of the courts. The animal cruelty law is in the prosess of changing here in Canada. Ones found guilty can be fined up to $10,000 and at least a year in jail or 1000hrs of community service and will NEVER be able to have an animal for the rest of their life. I don't remember all the details but I know we at the SPCA are VERY happy about it.
I would not rest until some one comes in a takes a look at YOUR side of the story. One of my neighnors tried the same this with the health issues and I threw a lot of things back in his face and I haven't had any problems from him since (but he moved, so it's all good, must have gotten fet up with me taking a stand). I'm working tomorrow so if you have any questions about the laws of the animal protection act just ask and I'll personally find out for you.
Good Luck!!
Hilary Dawn


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

If your neighbors are putting out nets, then they're catching native birds as well as pigeons. Here in the States it's illegal to catch native species without a permit, hopefully thing are the same way in Canada. Keys and Eyegone has got it right on the nose! Rat your neighbors out to the Canadian Fish and Game Dept. Frankly I wouldn't tell them anything about pigeons being involved, concentrate on the fact that your neighbors are netting and killing birds. If the're snapping the necks of pigeons that they catch I'm positive that they're doing the same to any native birds that they catch.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Jules,

I am so sorry to hear about your neighbor's behavior, what an outrage. Seems like this person is unbelievably cruel, and in order to do "battle" with them it will
use up lots of time on your part, but hopefully you will be successful. Is it possible for you to have @ your continued access a time stamped digital camera that is able to document any and all changes and/or events w/digital time stamp? Pictoral document. Keep a journal as well, specific to this situation if you can. 

Also, what are your building codes like? Is it legal to build a fence w/extensions that high? Many times building codes will not let fences above a certain height at the property lines here in the states. Something to check into. Make sure that ALL of his alterations/actions are "legal". 

A motion activated camera on the net might be good if this is within your means. They can be had from internet. Watch them as diligently as they watch you, unfortunately. And, in the meantime, you'll also have to keep your antenna out for your flock w/a possible relocation effort in mind if they are in continued harms way.

Instead of being on the defensive and getting caught up in protracted conversations w/this person from Public Health, I would get him into the same defensive corner he/she wished you to be in and get them on the defensive w/as many of the issues that Hilary & JGregg have raised as you can.

Best,

fp


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## tatts (Nov 9, 2005)

*quote by Andinla*

I'm from Australia and I'm afraid that the quote from Dr Cornelius Kiley must be outdated or false.Australian quarentine only last month refused a shipment of pigeons because of the detection of anti bodies carried by three racing pigeons in a consignment from Canada,These were destroyed and the rest sent back.The cost of the shipment exceded three million dollars Australian,so please be careful of some of the statements some people state,I think that this one can't be right. Taats


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## tatts (Nov 9, 2005)

*I forgot*

The avian flue virous that I'm talking about is the H5M1 which has had a deverstating effect on a lot of country's so far,Believe me this virous has mutated and no bird will be safe soon,nor humans apparently! 
Tatts


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I wish you had told us about the net sooner, Jules! Bill of the Etobicoke Humanitarian Society was wonderful when someone had trapped pigeons and other bird behind a net on his balcony and was leaving them to die. 

Try to draw the pigeons awayt from danger, but you must aalso persevere with your action against your neighbours.

Do the pigeons perch on your neighbour's roof? If not, then they really can have no objections to birds flying in the sky, can they! And you can point out that as pigeons don't poop in flight they are not dropping anyrthing either.

Maybe you can make this whole horrible situation work to your advantage by using the situation to highlight your neighbours' cruelty.

Keep your chin up, you are in the right here.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Tatts, I believe that the current view is that it was not appropriate to cull pigeons that had antibodies against the virus as they posed no danger to either people or to other birds. This is the link that Cindy provided us with:


http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,16989299%5E1702,00.html

Cynthia


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## badbird (Aug 15, 2005)

pittsburgh24 said:


> Mention to your local wildlife protections or Humane Society that you saw protected species (if there are any in Canada) come into contact with it.
> Don't give up, this is a very cruel death to the birds.


hahahah yeah! get those Jerkies next door! i would do something scandalous like that too. and then they break their necks? that is horrid


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## tatts (Nov 9, 2005)

*Cynthia*

My coments were only that a DR of V.Science had made a statement to the effect that pigeon's didn't get the avien virous.But you need the virous to biuld the anti bodies,So I've been led to believe
TATTS


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

First of all, Thank you for your support in this issue. I can use all the help I can get.

Second... as I did mention in my first post, the neighbour _has_ removed the mesh fence (Thank God).

I have set up the pictures at webshots. But please. It is NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!
http://community.webshots.com/album/508085890wxCGhn
Let me know if the link doesn't work. I had sent emails of the shot to SPCA and Toronto Humane Society...sadly have heard nothing back. I will try and research this APO.
Several months ago (on another pigeon/neighbour matter) I even researched a wildlife lawyer... and the bottom line... he said that unless the judge was a pigeon lover, it would be an extremely expensive battle that I would lose. He's only one lawyer... if you know of any others in this area, please let me know.

The pigeons that are the issue are a small flock that I have tried to move in the past, but then they hook up with a huge flock (150+) and then they followed me home!  
It took a long time to get back to the original 35 ish. They don't land on any other neighbour's property, only mine and the telephone lines across the street. If the pigeons were on the telephone line another neighbour used to take a two by four and pound the post till the birds flew off. This is situated at a junior school and when he saw me he started complaining but I told him that I'd had people tell me "that there's this crazy guy pounding the telephone post across the street where the junior school is and that I should call the police". He's a retired cop by the way. When I told him this, he huffed off... but has never pounded the post again. *haha*

The problem is that the pigeons fly over several neighbour's property and they say that their windows and deck etc are covered in pigeon droppings. The last time I spoke with one of them (the one that put up the mesh fence), I called to tell them that a bird was trapped - she just started yelling and going on about all the diseases and avian flu and she makes her husband wear gloves and a mask when "snapping the neck".

So... *shrug* that's the issue. Please keep the suggestions coming... I need all the help I can get.

Thanks

Julianne

nb: anybody know why I don't get "notified" when there are new posts? I used to and the settings are set to instant notification.


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Not much I can help except to tell you to use a camcorder. 

A picture is just a picture. People usually don't like to be recorded on tape. If you would have come out in your backyard and made sure you were visible to them, that you were actually filming their actions, they might have removed it sooner.

Moreover, a tape carry a larger burden of proof than a picture. In particular if they start yelling, shouting at you and its recorded on tape.

I think if you start using a camcorder and you make sure you are visible to them when filming them, they might reduce their activities.

You could have also provided the tape to a TV station.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Horrible netting*

Hi Jules,

I don't have any hints and tips because I live in the UK ( different laws etc) but I just wanted to stress my anger at seeing those poor birds caught up. I too, here in the UK, have been having a running battle for over 2 years with a row of properties that have wire netting on the top floors and I have seen on occassions, poor dead pigeons caught up - god know how they suffered. I have also been able to arrange the rescue of about 4 as still alive and using the RSPCA (Royal Society for Protection of Animals) and threatening police action etc) the birds have been rescued, but it always turns my stomach to see the twisted sight of a poor pigeon all tangled up. I can't imagine how horrible it must have been for you to see that every day.

I know from my own experience, that although there are statutes in UK law which could conclude this to be animal cruelty, deliberately trapping and untold suffering, a lot of this is just not deemed important enough. I recently was threatened with court if I did not retract a defamatory comment I made about one owner of one of the properties and stop the RSPCA from building a legal case. I had to do it as I would not win - I don't think anyone has ever taken a pigeon netting issue to the courts unfortunately. I do monitor the situation and all of the properties have either now repaired their netting which I still don't like as it can always happen again) or replaced the netting with spikes. Touch wood there are no trapped birds for over 4 months....long may it stay that way.

I hope that your situation improves and something can be done. If it is fine mesh then other protected birds could be trapped and are people allowed to break bird's necks just like that. That seems wrong to me when they don't own the birds..... rotten old world sometimes.

Tania


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Julianne,

After reading Kittypaws' post, it reminded me: There is law in Ontario against cruelty to animals. If you catch a bird, like in a cage, and do not provide it food and water and the bird dies, then you are guilty of cruelty to animals and will end up in front of a judge.

I am surprised by the reaction you got from the Humane society.

I don't know the legal implications of catching birds in a fishing line mesh and killing them by twisting their necks. But if you catch a bird and let it die of starvation/dehydration in Ontario, you have commited a criminal act.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Jules,

I received an almost immediate reply from Bill of the Etobicoke Humane Society which I will be forwarding to you. 

Cynthia.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I don't know about any of you, but I'm a very blunt and straight foward person. If my neighbor was caughting birds perpisly in a net and felt them to die, I would have taken an axe and chopped those poles down and drug them away and I would keep on doing it until something has been done about it. Most likely they would call the police for distuction of property, then I would have told them my situation and demand a frether ivestigation about it. But that's just me and my stubbornness. 
Jules don't get my wrong, you did do the right thing by getting those pictures and would highly recommand (if it does happen again) to get the video tapings of it like NumberNine said. I'm sorry that the OSPCA isn't helping you out. If you lived here I would have made our ACOs and APO to go out and ivestigate it. I guess all you can do is wait for things to unfold and go from there.
Good luck with your neighbor.
Hilary Dawn


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Hillary,

Think I'd be mad enuf to do that, but if I did and got arrested, I'd be of little use behind bars and broke after bail & the rest that would surely become of it. But I _do_ understand the sentiment  .

I should've put this link in earlier when I posted about motion activated cameras. These cameras aren't bad, although I don't know what your $$ circumstances are, Jules. I had a situation w/a drug house (unusual here in Oakland  ) & was amazed at what an impact having a couple of these will do in a prominent, visible place. They can hook up to your vcr. Really changes the dynamic. I made sure they were visible.

http://www.x10.com/products4/overture/cameras_wireless.html?4376fc36ed238e004382ac83

The sites a bit cheesy, but the motion cameras work & are cheap, they take pics thru the window as well.
fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

IMO it was Jules' report to the Humane Society that prompted the neighbours to take down the nets and replace them with flags...and to take revenge by reporting her to the health inspector.

This is what Bill said:

_Hello Cynthia,

I read through the links and looked at the photos. Willfully harming
animals is a federal office in Canada. Pigeons are indeed animals. This
case is definitely worth investigating. The Avian Flu is a very serious
thing, but the hysteria surrounding it does not give an individual the right
to torture, and kill at ones will.

Jules mentions that she sent this information to The Toronto Humane Society
and the OSPCA. Animal Protection in the city of Toronto is broken down into
districts. If this is in the boundaries of "Etobicoke" I will personally
look into it. If in another region, I will ensure that it is looked into.

If this was reported to the OSPCA, then I am sure with all certainty that an
OSPCA Cruelty Officer has gone to the residence. It is possible that they
have not gotten back to Jules yet, but all complaints are investigated.

Is it possible to get the following information:
Address and Phone Number of Jules. This remains confidential.
Address of the neighbors.

Just to set the record straight. There is a bill before parliament to
increase the penalties for animal cruelty, but it keeps getting stalled. At
present, the maximum penalty is 6 months in jail and/or $2000 fine plus a
judge could order that a person not own an animal for a maximum of 2 years.
Penalties for puppy mills in Ontario are a little more severe. In Ontario,
animal cruelty falls under the jurisdiction of the Ontario SPCA.

Thanks and kind regards,_

I have forwarded the e-mail to Jules so that she can send him her details.

Jules, if you haven't received it please contact me and I will re-send.

Cynthia


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I think this is absolutely Outragous... Remember one thing... pictures and pictures and more pictures, pictures don't lie and he said she said in court doesn't go anywhere. Too bad you can't cut the net down, I would and wouldn't think twice about it...then again I have been told I should be an animals attorney as animals have rights too just no one thinks so.. Good Luck with your fight and I am saying a special prayer that someone listens to you as pigeons are very super sweet birds and make great pets too 

Cindy (Naturegirl)


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi Jules,
I too agree that this is an absolutely terrible event unfolding with your neighbour. This person must be a terribly cruel vicious person to wish to do harm to any animal, especially on the scale that you are talking about with nets and neck breaking...totally horrendous!!
My first thoughts on the topic are similar to those already posted above by others here.
Use as much as you can to build your case against this person including documenting everything (as you have started with your camera), and call in as many people as possible to see this, including native protection agencies and check out the building laws.
Please keep us updated on what happens.

Tats,
I too live in Australia...and know of that 'scare'...however it was only a 'scare' that was blown out of preportion by scaremongering media.

The truth of the matter was only a few birds tested positive for avain flu antibodies...and these antibodies were not even for the H5N1 strain, but indeed for a very mild version of 'non-lethal' flu. These anti-bodies were injected into the birds to prevent them from catching another form of bird flu as a preventative, and were nothing to be concerned about.
The main reason these birds were destroyed and sent back was because a few also carried the Newcastle Disease that we do not have here in Aus.
This entire incident was blown out of proportion by media during the initial onset of fear of the 'killer bird flu', and does not disprove any statements above.
Infact it only shows peoples ignorance, fear and gullability, and how mis-information can be very dangerous.

Regards
Alaska


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

What about building a loft and capturing these pigeons in order to keep them safe from this darkened soul??? What about raising a fund to help you put such a loft together??? I know that I would donate!


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## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

*Your Community Newspaper*

It's hard to believe so much heartless cruelty is born out of fear and ignorance but that is the way some people are. Glad to hear the fence has come down and hopefully it will stay that way. I agree the birds have to be moved to another area for their own safety even though you have enjoyed having them feed at your place in the past. I read a post somewhere on this forum where the person moved their pigeons so many feet away from his/her home each day until they were all relocated elsewhere. Maybe you could try that. Your kind actions will probably save their lives.

If your neighbor persists in harming Wildlife I would definately get hold of your community newspaper. Almost all have someone on staff who writes articles about birdwatching, nature etc. Talk to that columnist, have them visit this site, show some pictures and go after your neighbor with a little unwanted publicity.


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## Al & Bobby (Oct 18, 2004)

tatts said:


> My coments were only that a DR of V.Science had made a statement to the effect that pigeon's didn't get the avien virous.But you need the virous to biuld the anti bodies,So I've been led to believe
> TATTS


Hi

They have the antibodies because the virus went into them. But they destroyed it. That leaves antibodies. Pigeons don't get the kind of bird flu virus that people can catch. 

When it was injected into them by the USDA, the virus disappeared right away, and they didn't get sick.

This means they don't carry it, either. We should keep telling people about it. Most likely the pigeon haters think they have a good excuse.

The NY Times at least pointed out that pigeons won't be a transmitter. It wasn't complete in its article but almost.


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## Esftumbler (Jan 31, 2006)

*Vet Notice For Pigeon Health*

Go to Keyword NPAUSA and located link to a printable vet disclaimer on health risk of pigeons.
Bill in Florida


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