# Salmonella neurological and ocular symptoms



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I have a salmonella breakout, several birds are ill. One developed neurological symptoms because I started the treatment too late. Another one seems to go blind at one eye.



Is a form of Salmonella that manifest with an aqueous diarhhea, much transparent liquid and some feces of browinish or pale green color. I wasn't sure what is until today, when the problem at the eye appeared and I made a connection with what I've read on older threads on this forum or on some vet sites.




What I need to know is this:

1. About the neurological symptoms: how soon are supossed to disappear? Thr aspect of droppings improved radically, is solid most of the time, though yellowish (the bird has had liver in past, including some scrry jaunice episods. Yet, while the droppins are solid, no improvement is in neurological symptom, torticollis and lack of coordination of movements.


2. Are the ocular problems reversible? A baby of three weeks got Salmonella too and he seems to go blind with one eye, which also presents some white cloud inside the globe:


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Please Post pictures of your Loft. In my experience salmonella is not that common, and usually comes from the situation the Bird is living in. sanitation?


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I don't keep them in a loft but in an appartment room. I posted photos of my pigeons on this page:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/baby-missing-feathers-on-crop-75264.html



After starting treatment with injectable antibiotics (lincospectin) on all but one of them (who seems ok for now), the disease seems to be under control. 

Only one died sudden, the male from this couple, just in the night after taking the photo, after showing green diarrhea. 







Btw, the white one in photo is now well and has coupled with the girl with broken beak and now are cooing very happy all the day.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The pigeon in photo in first post is now suffering from intestinal and sinus canker. Because of sinus canker, it can't breath through nose, keeps the mouth open. 

Is something else I can do beside giving metronidazole? Apparently, the trichomonas have became resistant to drug and I can't find ronidazole here..


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Andrei, have you _seen_ the canker in the bird, or had a throat swab/droppings test?


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

No, but there are the known signs: green feces with yellow urates, enteritis and respiratory: is heard like a sort of viscous liquid inside the nose. And other birds have had wet canker too these days.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Yellow urates are indicative of something affecting the liver - which can be various problems. The other symptoms, really, could equally (if not more) apply to both Salmonellosis or E.coli.

Resistance to a particular medicine in birds who have canker is usually caused by people treating birds 'as a precaution' or under dosing, regularly. It is mostly going to happen within the loft where these bad practises are carried out. It would be somewhat unusual to have canker in birds from feral flocks already resistant.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Yes, is the result of incomplete treatment period, most likely.

As for possibility of Salmonella or e-coli, previously I treated him for this with injectable antibiotics which would have cleaned these diseases. The green of the feces has become discolored, as happens in canker.

Now I have given some injectable Metro and the gurgling of liquid is lesser heard.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Apparently he got stabilised with the bowel issue for moment. It is salmonella at bowel and canker at sinuses (there are even missing feathers next to the beak). The salmonella is not a problem (I hope) as Lincospectin can deal with it. As for the canker, I cannot say.

Here is a video with him breathing open-mouthed. Maybe somebody has an idea what can be done:



*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX8L6_mSc2E*









.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

It looks to me like a serious respiratory problem, quite likely bacterial in cause. The right eye appears to be closed up, too. In the absence of a vet to diagnose, I personally would be giving a course of Baytril or Doxycycline, while treating for canker.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I have a pigeon inside now whose eye looked like that. It was an injury to the cornea from being pecked in a fight. I am treating with eye drops containing Chloramphenicol, having taken him to the vet.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

He partly blinded at both eyes following a salmonella some weeks ago (when I started the thread). Recently, a swelling appeared on the eyelid of the eye he keeps closed, possibly the beginning of a pox nodule. Maybe this is why keeps the eye closed.

I've treated him with Doxy last night and with incospectin this morning, but the situation is worsening fast. I was thinking at an injection with Metro in neck so I was preparing to go to vet as I haven't performed neck injections till now.


----------



## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Make sure your diagnosis is correct. However, a couple years back we picked up Salmonella at a show......a couple or our birds did show the neurological symptoms (neck twisting on some, wobbling on another....almost pmv type). We treated with Baytril for the full period (10 days or two weeks???) They recovered but it took the neurological symptoms a couple weeks to disappear even though it was obvious they were feeling better before that. Recovery was 100% though and they bred fine the following year and no more incident since.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

He has both pmv and salmonella, as the neurological symptoms persisted for a month and half. His father died sudden of salmonella (I could have saved him easily but I left him untreated because I was not surw what is).

Salmonella was treated first time when occured (when I started the thread) but relapsed now. 

As for the respiratory symptoms, it came out is mycoplasmosis. After administering Tylosin two hours ago, breathing has become normal (shut mouth) and the gurgling sound dissapeared. He is very weak because of the many medicines I gave him, because of dehydration following enteritis and because the liver is affected (very yellow feces and urates) but I hope he gonna make it.


This is how he looks now:

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwzcAptOFbI*


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

In th evening, the respiratory symptoms returned, with higher virulence. He looks like feeling some intense pain, struggles violently, runs around like trying to escape of certain physical experience. And breaths open-mouthed, with loud rattlings and whislting.

Is probably airsackulitis but don't know what causes it. As I gave medicines for canker, chlamydia, mycoplasma, air sack mites, the only variant remaining is aspergillus. I gave him osme water that previously was mixed with crushed garlic, then flitered.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Every tim when I feed or give him water, he opposes violently and afterward he breaths like he aspirated liquid into respiratory tract, no matter how little I gave to him. It seems the crop has shrunk or there is other condition that causes this.

What can I do?


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If you have an avian vet hope you can get him there soon. You have been trying hard but I would ask for a vet opinion as he sounds like he's getting worse right now, poor birdie.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Some pigeons and doves really hate being hand fed and struggle like crazy.When I was treating one of mine with Metacam recently, he would make regurgitating sounds simply from me opening his beak.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> If you have an avian vet hope you can get him there soon. You have been trying hard but I would ask for a vet opinion as he sounds like he's getting worse right now, poor birdie.


Not such thing in Bucharest (probably at some chicken farms). 


John_D said:


> Some pigeons and doves really hate being hand fed and struggle like crazy.When I was treating one of mine with Metacam recently, he would make regurgitating sounds simply from me opening his beak.


This may happened with mine too, but normally he would become accustomed with the procedure. I think he's scared because I gave him hot garlic and bitter metro and when he was strugling, I think water entered his lungs, thus making him even more afraid of procedure. Also, I think I was feeding him too much.

I still am not sure what he has, the missing feathers under beak and some fluorescent droppings make me think canker, while the fats and radical response to Tylosin make me think of Mycoplasma. Maybe both of them. 

All day he suffered from some internal pain. Now, in the evening, after giving Tylosin again, he seems relaxed, except for the open mouth breathing, which is perhaps becaue the water in lungs.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If he is struggling with the meds and hand feeding please make sure to not let him aspirated any liquids. When I medicate our pigeon I wrap her gently in a towel, keep her fully upright, open her beak gently while keeping her head stabilized gently, and only give her a little at a time so it doesn't go into her lungs. Good luck with your poor pigeon. Hope he is better soon. Glad to hear he seems more relaxed. Would caution that you are treating for more than one thing without a clear diagnosis. Hope you give the pigeon a chance to eat and drink and rest on his own as he feels better.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I think you make a good point, cwebster. Salmonellosis, PMV, Mycoplasma and Canker all concurrently or in quick succession just seems, to me, pretty unlikely. The bird has been given various medications, which could easily upset the system. It would certainly skew results from any sample testing.

I would think the big problem is the open beak breathing. Trouble is. it can be bacterial or fungal, or even internal pressure from a tumor.

Provided a full course of each medication is given, and without a definite diagnosis, I would think that Tylosin and Doxycycline (or Baytril or Lincospectin) is a start for focusing on the most observable issue..

No grit, and with courses of antibacterials we often give Nystatin to combat yeast infection that can be prompted by heavy use of antibiotics and become a further problem with respiration.

Definitely probiotics after a course of treatment, too.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

I dont know how this poor bird is still alive and not sure that he should not be euthenized?
Looks and sounds like he is suffering. The bunch of medical cocktails he has endured is crazy. How did the vet diagnose anything, had he done any tests, fecals? bloods, crop wash??? Seems like you guys are throwing so much at him except pain killers which Im sure he needs for all the stuff he is taking. All this jumping around to so many different meds from one day to the next cant be good. To me Im not sure I would continue to put him through all this. If you think you are feeding him and its getting in lungs, he is suffering and not having quality of life. Doesnt look good at all to me.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree that the poor thing has had quite a cocktail of treatments. Can't open mouthed breathing also be from stress? Forced medications and feedings are likely very stressful. (We are taking care of a rescued cat that has stress asthma from 3 months of forced medications at an animal shelter who is getting better as the stress has been reduced. She has 4 cultured pathogens but we are putting the meds in highly palatable foods and trying to make her quality of life as happy as possible and she is getting better.) Suggest making him warm and comfortable and giving him highly preferred foods and water and letting him rest. The only tx I might offer without a clear dx are probiotics and a painkiller, like metacam, to let the poor thing rest for a while. He probably also is highly stressed being away from the other pigeons. Is there a way to let him see them through a window or something so he knows they are nearby? Does he have a mate or friends who might cheer him up if he can see them through a window? I'm no pro, these are just suggestions from caring for lots of different types of animals over the years. First do no harm. I know you are doing everything you can AndreS. CBL has a good point, that an animal is more likely to get well if you focus on improving quality of life for him. Try to make him as happy as possible and see if that helps. Avoid forcing him to eat or drink or take meds for a little while. Like I said I'm a newbie to pigeons but that is my two cents worth. Best wishes and I hope he responds soon.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Seems to me that jumping back and forth a day here or there and changing meds with no labs to prove any particular illness is just a crap shoot and the drug cocktails killing this bird by inches. I think it would be a GOOD idea to get pain meds that way if he dies he is not in pain. To me it doesnt look good, not sure how long ANY med will need to take effect and tell us what the vet said for any of the two meds you ARE giving for salmonella and the myco. He will need food and water to sustain energy so MIN you MUST give him electrolytes if not able to get any food into bird. You also have to be SO careful not to aspirate bird and if he can barely breath already due to whatever is in throat. If he can barely breath and or swallow, it may be kinder to humanly euthanize this bird. Unless you want to put him in the hands of a professional that can feed him safely. Something to think about.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with CBL that if you must give anything pain med might help, such as meloxicam or whatever others feel might be helpful. The more you can unstress this bird and make him comfortable the better he is likely to do at this point. Offer really favorite food and water and let him try eating on his own. Let him see his buddies visually from a window, or put him inside something so he doesn't make them sick but he can see them nearby. Don't stress him with force feeding anything if he is aspirating. Make him want to be alive. How is he doing?


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

He passed away last night. 

In the last day, as I said, he was making sudden moves like trying to get rid of something. Holding him in my hands, I could hear how a sort of thing (solid or liquid) was blocking his respiration and by that movement he was managing to restore his breath. In the last hours I gave him Fluconazole and that blockage ceased to occur but the breath remained very laboured and fast.

Then I made the mistake to decide to keep him at me thinking that if he sees me he will feel secure and that gonna comfort him (he really used to love me and become happy when seeing me) or at least he was seeing someone next to him in the moment of death and I put him in a sort of craddle hung at my chest. this actually stressed him and caused the death. He looked at me several times and I later realised that was asking to let him in his place(when a bird look at you wants something from you). Then, when I tried to feed him he refused, then struffled violently and died.

I think I should have followed your indications but at the moment I was not prepared to act lucidly, I got panicked as usual, gave too many medicines.


He was not alone (except for some hours), I kept him on a large electric blanked, covered with other blanket on a metallic frame, where he was together with other two (pmv) pigeons. One of even, out of lack of other kind of activity, is enjoying pecking the other two (in an afectuous manner) so in his last day, he enjoyed some pecking from this pigeon.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, am sorry to hear he didn't make it. It is hard not to do too much and hard to not try too hard. Am sorry for your loss but glad he is no longer suffering. Would just recommend to everyone here, don't be so quick to medicate, or so quick to change meds, and try to work with the birds natural healing processes. Keep in mind that the happier you can make the bird, the more you are allying with him.


----------



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I fully agree. There are many cases when medicines are not needed. From now on, I will try to make a lab test before starting any treatment.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS I know from your posts how much you truly care about birds and that your heart is in the right place. I just think in our urgency to help sometimes we over treat. Lab tests are great if you can do them. Meds are so toxic that they are best used when really indicated. That goes for us too, not just birds.


----------



## vanderbash (11 mo ago)

AndreiS said:


> I have a salmonella breakout, several birds are ill. One developed neurological symptoms because I started the treatment too late. Another one seems to go blind at one eye.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just noticed this case too in one of my pigeon. It's a chick of about two weeks. Both eyes are blind from just yesterday to now that I am typing. What will cure it pls? I need your response as quick as possible.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

vanderbash said:


> I just noticed this case too in one of my pigeon. It's a chick of about two weeks. Both eyes are blind from just yesterday to now that I am typing. What will cure it pls? I need your response as quick as possible.


Can you start a new thread with a photo?


----------

