# Question about feeding response



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

All right, I've noticed that my 3 day old baby dove gets cold very easily--if the temperature is not at 95 fahrenheit, he's cold and doesn't have a good feeding response. As soon as he's been in 95+ temperatures, his feeding response is back to being good, and he peeps again. Is this normal? I don't remember my baby pigeons needing this amount of food.

While I'm at it, how much should I be feeding him at any given time? Should I really fill him up and only feed every once in a while once his crop empties again, continue to top him off and keep him full all the time like the parent birds do, or feed little amounts often?

Thank you, my pigeon people. 

Update: I'm sort of worried about this little one. He shakes his head and turns away when I try to get a response from him. He just acts tired. But he's hungry, his crop is nearly empty. What is this? Everything was going so well yesterday.

Another update: He eats well when he has his mouth put in the food, but doesn't respond or peep when I grab his beak.  Sometimes he does--he did just earlier this morning. Why could this be? Am I not feeding enough, and he's weak due to that? See, it's very hard to get enough into him at each sitting because of the fact that he's so small.

And yet another update: I'm quite sure all is fine. Ignore this if you want.  I'm just the usual anxious parent. I pay too much attention to tiny details, you might say.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Vasp said:


> And yet another update: I'm quite sure all is fine. Ignore this if you want.  I'm just the usual anxious parent. I pay too much attention to tiny details, you might say.


I'm glad that all is well, Vasp. It's much better for you to be an "obsessive" parent than otherwise  

The warmth is very important as you know for such a such and tiny little one.

At just a few days old, I would guess that as little as 1-2 cc/ml will fill the little one up. It's best to go by how the crop looks and feels, however. I would fill the crop well at each feeding and then wait for the crop to be empty or nearly so before feeding again.

Continued good luck to you and the little dove, and please keep us posted!

Terry


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you. ^^ Yes, he is doing fine. Sometimes his feeding response is more crazy, and sometimes less. Depends on how long it's been since his last feeding. He eats well though. It seems to be the warmer the food, the more zest he has with eating and more feeding response he has, as well. He likes his food at 108. Kaytee says 105-110 receives the best feeding response, and I'd have to say with all my other babies, this is true.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


If it was me I would keep him around 103 -105...if he is starts 'panting' then I know he is too warm, and I would bring it down a tiny bit.

"95" is not warm enough...and in actuality, if he were under Momma or Poppa, he'd be a nice 106 or so...

I know my own Body-Temperature is not enough for the very young, and, if even the slightest outside Air is getting in it is way too little warmth then, but it is better than nothing in a pinch, and I recon I run not quite 99 Degrees...

A Baby should feel mildly 'Hot' in your palm...if they do not, they are not warm enough.



Small meals, often...

Meaning - if you wish to emulate a parent Dove, feed a little meal every twenty minutes or so, 18 hours a day...later, they can eat more, fewer meals, larger meals.


They have tiny Crops at that age, and they chill easily.


Why are you having to feed a "3 day old' Dove?


What happenned to his parents?


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I posted in "back on the train" about this little dove. In short, I have a friend who raises ringneck doves. She hasn't ever had to hand feed before and one of her young pairs abandoned this baby before it even hatched. At first we tried to get her other pair who were raising another baby (the baby who seemed to be having troubles, but is now on some ACV in the water and is looking fine now) to accept it, but they wouldn't. The size difference was immense even between the two, and they would leave the older baby alone if the younger baby was put in the cage. Because there was nothing else to do, I took the little one home with me and began to feed it. I'm feeding him kaytee, and I know how you're not fond of it, but many including I have yielded good results from it. I'll increase the temperature, in that case. I'd always heard people saying 85-95 degrees but I always wondered why that would be the case, as their body temperature is a lot warmer than that.

I was a little anxious, but it was mainly because his food kept cooling down too much for his taste after I took it from the bowl. It would be a nice temperature and then get cool to the touch immediately. Now I just try to do it as fast as possible and start at a slighter warmer temperature and that fares well for the little guy. He's nuzzling like a champion now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



Ahhhhhh...well, all tolled, you do have your hands full these days then..!


Yes...useing the hollow Nipple, I keep the formula in a small Cup or Mug in a Closed/Lidded Saucean of Hot Water, and the metal Spoon laying in the Water...so as I re-fill the Nipple, the formula will not have cooled off too much for the next round or however many subsequent rounds...and if it does cool off, so does the Baby's interest in eating it!

If I have three or five or eight Dove and Pigeon 'Peepers' all wound up and twirling and cavorting on the Bed with Chow-Time arrived, there are a lot of 'rounds' to do, with each one getting however many Nipples full and so on, and the formula can cool off even in a pan of Hot Water...so, sometimes I have to run back to the Stove and heat the Pan up some more to continue.


Originally I only made formulas from scratch, and had never heard of any being available as such.


Once I got some recipes figured out, 'Peepers' or 'Squeakers' or imminent fledglings of Dove or Pigeon kinds enjoyed the food, and all was well.

Then, being told about 'K-T' while talking with a Pet Sgtore clerk about raising Baby Pigeons, I bought some, and would use it sometimes as an ingredient in a formula recipe.


Now too, if memory serve, I do not recall any Baby Pigeon or Dove being as very amenible to plain K-T as they are to a more deferential formula made from scratch, but, those who will abide it, will...and those who will not, one will find out.


Doves particularly, Mourning Doves anyway, as well as Pigeon Babys, seem to like a little Malt flavor in their formula, for which plain uncooked 'Malto Meal' is nice. Too, one can buy a package of plain powdered Malt, and this is even better.


If it was you, would you rather be fed K-T for the next six weeks, and nothing else?


Or, would you rather be fed the formulas I make?


Mine really do taste good, and I have had many people taste them,. when visiting at feed-times, and they really genuinely found them delicious.

This would not be the case with plain K-T...especially, as with most people's can of it, once it is rancid from Air getting to it.

They never taste it, so what do they know, or care if it tastes 'good' or not?

...sigh...


Love, 


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway...whatever we can learn by observing what the Parents do, will benifit what we do and how we do it.

In Nature, Babys are never left alone till they are endothermic.


Till then, the parents sit on them, keeping them definitely 'warm'.

I do not know where the 'low' temperature rumors came from, but if the parent's Body temp is 106 or so, and the parents part their underfeathewrs to surround the tiny Babys, and have their skin on them directly, and they increase their blood flow to their underside, that Baby is going to be close to 106, and probably not less than 103...


Parents feed tiny meals, and feed them often.


No neonate is ever fed much, but they are fed very often, 18 hours a day, maybe more.


Food from the parents is likely about 102 or 103, being as the Crop is only being heated form the back side, the food in it is likely not quite as warm as the core temperature of the parent Pigeon or Dove.


For a Baby Pigeon or Dove, 'food' is an emotional tactile comforting thing, intimate and contionuous with warmth, tenderness, and the lightly pressing physical presence of the parent sitting on them...for them, these htings all meld.


So, the more we can come close to what the Natural conditions would have been, the easier and happier it is for the Baby, and in many ways, for us, too.


Some people are afraid to let a Baby be definitely 'warm', while they insist to use really poorly considered methods for providing warmth, which they then feel justify their fears. If one can not have the Baby in one's shirtfront against one's Stomach, then one may make a simple 'Warm House' for the Baby.

When this is draped, small, and heated from within, the Air inside is warm, and the Baby is warm.

Some source of Humidy should be provided also, so the Baby does not dry out.

Parents at this phase like to Bathe and sit with Humid Feathers.


Just setting a Baby on a cloth covered Heating Pad in an open cage, is not going to work well, and by the time one has the Pad or cloth temp high enough, the rest of the Baby is still cold.


Babys need to be over 100 degrees, so, heat from below, with mediating soft Nesting materials, and a small enclose, draped so no moving Air from the outside can come in, will work well.

As you have noted, even a slightly 'chilled' Baby is not as responsive or interested to eat, as a thoroughly 'warm' one is.


And of course 'chill' when allowed to happen to too far a degree, or too often, can occasion serious internal problems for the Baby, and ultimately cause them to die.


Anyway...rambley, 


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you for all of the information, Phil. I do agree that good tasting formula should be good for them. I believe that birds have a great sense of taste.

Yes, my hands are very full, what with the baby dove, the Moody goose and all her problems and the little dove on ACV water. He's really doing a lot better today and stared at me for a good long time with very big eyes!

The baby here will not eat his formula unless in the cup it says it's 106-110. It must cool down immediately to about 102-104, I'd say. I like your idea of keeping the spoon warm in between, though. It sounds like a good idea.

All things considered, everything is going good for now.

Kind thanks,
Vasp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,


Oye..! Yes, you have your Hands full there...


Yeeeeesh, I know how that is, and one is lucky to get anything much else done at all sometimes, aside from going from one Bird to the next...and trying to keep things straight in one's head...


Yup, especially in Winter, every 'edge' we can finagle to keep the formula 'warm' as we feed, is worth doing.


I have considered to get one of those realy small 'Crock Pots' which are like a Pint or something, and to have a few inches of Water in it, to set the Cup of formula in...keeping the device 'set' to some low temp for the right ballpark, and keeping it on, close to or right where I will be doing the chow-times.

JUST for the Chow Times or the initial Warming even...with the formula in the Tea Cup being frozen between sessions...and tossed after 48 hours to make a new batch. Freeing REALLY gets it thoroughly hydrated too, which is important, since their little Crops like to 'pull' the moisture out of the formula...so also, offering 'tepid' Water to the 'Peeper' is a very good idea to do between meals times.



The way it has been so cold here lately, if I were to get in a handfull of Babys, I think I would do that - get one of the miniature Crock Pots...since that was always a sort of problem otherwise, or I have to run back to the Stove and so on to heat the Pan some more...not over heat it...and you know, its a hassle and it inturrupts all the Babys enthusiasm to have to stop, wait for me to reheat the stuff, and get on with it..!


Lol...



Usually I feed them immediately on the 'front Lawn' of their "Peeper Warm House", so this allows the very minimum of time spent away from the warmth, so, some fast feeds, then into my Shirt or back into the Warm-House...or when I have lots of them, I usually fed them on the Bed on a dedicated Sheet for the occasion, and when endothermic ages, I just let the Bed be their "Nest' Ledge place, and of course everyone stays put nicely with that arrangement.

In fact, I have almost always just had the 'Warm House' on the Bed anyway...and I sleep with the Baby in my hand, with my Hand in their Warm House, and they REALLY like that and settle in instantly once they learn the drill, they just wiggle into my palm, settle in, and go to sleep...

So, I learned to sleep that way so they could get to have that contact and imediacy of a warm and alive presence to be tactile-with and comforted by.

'Margainal' ones as for their having been sick or injured or both, I believe will have a much better probability of surviving and florishing, when one does this.


Later of course they come tumbling out of their Warm-House set-up when I call them to come and eat, and, they trundle back in once we are done feeding, so once older and ambulating, they participate more...later still they hang around on the 'Lawn' part, and seek out the interior off and on or at night-time, and soon then, they start to explore whatever horizontal places are within reach...so the Bed is big enough to have some room for them and they spend their days laying arouns and preening and so on, and trundle back into the Warm-House once it is night.


I have had some who after fledging, being pretty well into being young adults, who still would fly down now and then right before I turn the light out, and, walk over, and seek out my Palm to nestle in, so I let them, and we would do that...me curling my fingers around them, palm "up" till I finally get a cramp or somehting and have to change or switch Hands or something.

And they all leave it off at some point once they are feeling a little more grown up, so I never had to discourage anyone from it, and it is rare any would seek to continue it once they have been flying and self feeding for a while.




Best wishes!



Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Vasp, glad the baby is doing ok. We feed baby doves pretty much like Terry described and have had no problems. You will be able to increase the amount gradually. I do like for them to empty out before feeding again. They are so hard to feed with their tiny mouths and for a long time my husband would leave that job (the doves) to me but he now feeds them like a pro! 

Is he whistling yet?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yup, little mouths are getting easier and easier to feed for me.

Speaking of little mouths...

I have terribly bad news, my friends.
Not about the baby I was originally hand feeding, but about the little one on ACV water.

The little guy was abandoned by his parents!
They fed him every once in a while fine, but refused to sit on him at all. Thing is, he's still very young and gets chilled easily, and was full but shaking on the bottom of his cage. It would be impossible to digest food properly without a good temperature, so now he is in my hands. His legs are splayed so I have him in a tight space, his legs forced right under him by the cloth that he's on. He's now getting warmed up, and I'm going to observe his crop functions and behavior before I give him a feed.

Sigh...

My hands are so very full now.

Wish me luck, friends.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sending WARM thoughts, Vasp!

I'm sure you will do just fine, even if you have to pull out a few hairs first!  

Keep up the great work and we'll be here to help when needed!

Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you so much, Shi and of course young Master Squeaks. 
The little guy is warm now, but I'm going to give him some time to adjust.

Poor little guy!

Happy holidays, everyone. Best wishes for you and all your little pijies.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



Possibly the parents withdrew because they did not like the Legs being splayed...but I would be surprised if that was their reason.

But more likely, they would withdraw if they felt the Baby was ill...

So, be on the look-out for any signs of Canker...any 'yellow' to the Urates...

They can withdraw also of course if they feel too exposed or disturbed by goings-on around them...or at least Pigeons can, so I expect various Dove species can also.

The Birds here in my place are free to make their Nests anywhere they like, so with them, sometimes I literally have to step OVER a Nest on the floor as I walk, and it does not bother them a bit...

If these Doves had no choice as for where to build their Nest, or, felt duty-obliged to carry on with some Eggs the Hen had lain, without regard as for whether they really felt comfortable about the location, such troubles might result once they feel sensitive and concerned about the situation in their terms.

I do not know of course, what is up with your particular Doves and their Baby, but just to mention some possibilities anyway...


If the latter, a Cage draped on three sides might help, with the open side facing the most calm and non-eventful view...it might make the difference...presuming the Baby is not in some early stage of illness which would be their 'reason' instead...




Good luck..!


Sorry you are getting more responsibilitys added to your already full plate...



Oh, if you are not already doing so, may as well put the two Babys together so they can have eachother to cuddle with...

I forget, how much age apart are they?


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

It's all right, we'll handle it. 

So far, the urates are good and the baby has a great feeding response. Eyes open, and alert, too. Only problem is his legs--they go out on either side of him, and sometimes his wings do, too. But less often.

I wonder, my younger baby's poops are very solid compared to this one's. The younger one even has more liquidy foods. The baby is not dehydrated, his skin is fine and he's not dry or anything. Should I just increase the amount of food or number of feedings, or add some more moisture into his area? We've been very dry lately.

Thanks,
Vasp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good news for the most part, Vasp .. but if the legs have a problem, then you've got to get going on that .. sooner would be really good.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> It's all right, we'll handle it.
> 
> So far, the urates are good and the baby has a great feeding response. Eyes open, and alert, too. Only problem is his legs--they go out on either side of him, and sometimes his wings do, too. But less often.
> 
> ...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, the older baby had some ACV water through his parents, but not for very long, as they soon abandoned him. It seems almost fragmented into different parts, looking sort of grainy (but not much) and the urate is large and splattered ontop of it. The whole thing is surrounded by yellow liquid. The little guy's legs are getting better just from having a better place to stay. My younger baby's poops are moist but sort of like adult poops, I must say...A nice brown color with a perfect urate on top.

Any ideas?
His poops should start to change once he's on the formula.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Little update... There was absolutely no trouble getting the older baby on Kaytee. He used to be eating the food of all foods, the richest of them all--crop milk, and he gulped down Kaytee with a great big smile on his face.

He absolutely adored it, and now with a full crop, he sleeps with his little feet finally under him, nice and warm. I love seeing his contentedness. Here's hoping his poops get better.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> Yes, the older baby had some ACV water through his parents, but not for very long, as they soon abandoned him. It seems almost fragmented into different parts, looking sort of grainy (but not much) and the urate is large and splattered ontop of it. The whole thing is surrounded by yellow liquid. The little guy's legs are getting better just from having a better place to stay. My younger baby's poops are moist but sort of like adult poops, I must say...A nice brown color with a perfect urate on top.
> 
> Any ideas?
> His poops should start to change once he's on the formula.




Hi Vasp, 


In my experience...'yellow liquid' is an indication of Canker...and, would be expected to occasion the parent's abondonment of a Baby...



Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Checked the baby's mouth and no canker. The baby is doing fine now and is eating with zest. Very active, strong squeaker, this little one is. He has a lot of pinfeathers coming in, as well. As for the younger baby, he too is growing a lot of pinfeathers, though he's significantly smaller than the older baby. The younger one has always been on Kaytee and handfeeding formulas tend to cause a slower growth, so that's what I expected. The younger one is also eating with zest, and the poops of the older baby are getting better--less liquidy each time, and less yellow liquid, too. The urates are starting to look a lot more normal and the poop is a lighter shade of brown. Plus, his legs are a lot better, and everything is looking up.

Very glad to say these little ones are doing fantastically.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,


By 'Canker' I mean any Trichomonal infection whether appearing to be locazlied in the Throat, or, anywhere else which you would not be able to see.


Possibly he has had a mild Liver or Kidney infection which is clearing up on it's own...which could occasion 'yellow' urates...but please do not ever think that Canker is only an issue to be seen in their Throat, since it or it's like-same lesions can or will be going on in other areas of their system whicc we can not see unless doing a Necropsy.


Best wishes!


Glad things are improving..!


Merry Christmas!


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Ah, yes, I do recall hearing about canker in internal parts of the body, and that such cases were more serious than external cases. But I figure canker is not likely, as he would probably be in a state with such a problem.

Merry Christmas and thank you for everything, Phil,

Vasp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


Babys can have Canker or some form of Trichomona infection, and the illness will progress at whatever speed or course their system manages to negotiate as it tries to fight it...


Do not think it is something which one day just shows up full-blown...it starts slowly, and progresses from there.


They get Canker...once the parents sense the Baby is ill, the parents abandon them...the Baby is still wanting to be fed, does not "look" sick...we find them, feed them, and if we do not note the 'yellow', typically, in a few more days, the Baby sleeps more, gets droopy...starts panting, opens his eyes less...finally is not wishing to eat, gets feverish, and dies.

Hence, pay close attention always to any 'yellow' urates...if they are not Canker, they are something else infecting the Liver or Kidneys...


Sometimes, s-o-m-e-t-i-m-e-s...a Baby may fight the infeciton on his own and win...

Other times, not...

If he is getting over this on his own, excellent..!


Just make sure his poops/urates do clear up and show no more 'yellow'...in which case he just might have managed alright on his own...with no meds.

Otherwise, it would be good to treat for Canker...anyway...



Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

His poops now are a light brown and have no yellow at all. Just clear fluid and perfectly white urates, just like the other baby. I don't know what it was about, but now that he's not with his parents, he's all better. Do you think it might be because the parents have some sort of problem that should be addressed?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



If the parents seem fine, bright, actuive, and have good looking poops, probably all is fine with them.

If Baby has got well from whatever-it-was, and makes nice poops and seems fine, has a good appetite and is bright and appropriately active for whatever age he is, most likely all is fine with him too..!


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

The parents, I may have to investigate. I'm seeing some seriously strange poops down there, sort of like the baby's poops were before, and surrounded by yellow liquid. Of course, they also smell horrible.

The baby is doing very fine, and is bright and active, eating with zest and his poops are now great. Same goes for the little one, who is catching up, little feathers coming in already. It's a pleasure to see them sleep with full crops and happy thoughts, after what they've been through.


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