# Genetic tip of the week



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Let's continue with the genetic tips.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Just an FYI - tipllers rule has restarted a "genetic tip of the day" thread already. Up to you if you want two threads on the same subject but this could get confusing to posters. Might be better to have just one.


----------



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't see it! Where is it?


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Sorry, it has been moved, per your request, to Pigeon and Dove Genetics.


----------



## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

So how many base colours were there?


----------



## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

i really think this is good theres three of these now many diffrent points of veiw and perceptions of genetics


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

lockentauben said:


> So how many base colours were there?


There are two view on this Lockentauben which have been the source of healthy debate.

Here are the two takes on base colour genes. I will note that the first take is what has been used and prooven to be correct over the past years, There are some new studies being conducted which is relevent to the second take on the base colours, This has not been prooven but could be possible so is worth reading about, People can make their own decisions on which they think is more correct, My vote sticks to the first theory that they are allelic

Here is Lockentaubens explanation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am learning about genetics and found lots of interesting things here but thought I might set up a tip of the day thread for anyone to post thier knowledge on genetics. 

Lets start off simple

There are three base colours

Blue Ash red and Brown

Ash red is dominant to Blue and Brown is recessive to Blue

Base colour is sex linked so the cock carries two base colour genes and the hen only carries one

Because of the order of dominance an ash red cock can carry blue or brown and a blue cock can carry brown

When a pair breed thier sons get one base colour gene from each parent and the daughters get one of the fathers base colour genes.

And here is Mumtaz's. (not prooven but not disprooven either)

If you are new to pigeon genetics and want to learn about pigeon genetics, do NOT get confused by pigeons having so-called 3 base colors. Pigeons are able to produce at least 3 pigments (red, black, and brown) in their feathers but that does not mean they have 3 base colors. Base means standard and there can only be one standard in genetics for every species. We simply pick a standard phenotype and test the rest of the mutations to that phenotype and that phenotype is the blue bar in pigeon genetics. Just because Ash-red and Brown are sex-linked genes and assumed to be alleles based on breeding results, does NOT mean they are the base colors. That’s because we cannot have 3 standards to test the rest of the mutants. Ash-red and brown are mutations. Therefore, they cannot be considered as base or standard. 

Don’t believe to the statement that says “pigeons must be either blue, brown, and ash-red”. Because we can say the same thing about any other locus. At the indigo locus for instance, there is no known alleles. So I can say: every pigeon can either be blue or indigo. There are two alleles at the recessive red locus: Recessive red, and ember. So, I can say: every pigeon must either be blue, recessive red, or ember. Does that mean indigo and recessive red are also base colors? NO…

If we say there are 3 base colors, with that logic we can also say pigeons have 4 BASE patterns only because our standard “bar” is allelic to rest of the patterns. Each pigeon must have either barless, bar, check or T-check pattern even if epistatic genes like spread, recessive red, recessive white, and albino conceals the pattern when they are present in the genotype. BUT, that does not mean there are 4 BASE PATTERNS in pigeons. The only base is the bar. Rest of them are alleles of the bar pattern, but they are not BASE patterns. There can only be one base for us to compare the rest of the mutants. Therefore, any pattern other than the bar is considered to be mutations.

The other confusion is about the “blue gene”. There is no such thing as the blue gene. Blue is the phenotype produced by not only one gene located at the b-locus where ash-red and brown are assumed to be located. Every wild-type gene at every locus is represented by a + sign. Otherwise, we will have to call the wild-type gene at indigo locus also the “blue gene”, or called the wild-type gene at the recessive red locus also the “blue gene”. Well, how many so-called blue genes are there? Think of all the mutations that effect the color and the pattern like indigo, recessive red, spread, ash-red, brown, recessive white, dominant opal, grizzle, almond series, dilute, reduced, and the list goes on… at the location of these genes ALL of them must have wild-type genes (no mutants) for us to be able to see that blue bar phenotype. What that means is, in order to get a blue phenotype, there are about 25 genes needed, NOT JUST ONE. Therefore, the wild-type gene at the b-locus is not solely responsible to make that bird a blue bird….just remember every wild-type gene is represented with a + sign, and we are not allowed to give genotypic names to our wild-type genes. Therefore, there is no blue gene in pigeon genetics. There is a blue phenotype, but that phenotype is produced by about 25 genes working together. This number will go up as we get new mutations….


All good information here. Will be interesting to see if the results of Crybergs tests proove that ash red, Brown and blue are not alleles to each other. Certainly worth exploring and discussing I think


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The base colors are ash-red, blue, and brown. Genes like dirty and indigo are color modifiers. They do not have to be indigo, or dirty, or anything except ash-red, brown, or blue. They must be one of those. They must also be one of the patterns.


----------

