# Huysken - Van Reil Pigeons no longer exist!



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

*Just a little wake up call for those of you who think you have HVR's in your loft today.*

Because of conversations on another thread I decided to get the facts and here is what I found.

"Cois Huysken's and Jef Van Reil were the best of the best from 1945 to 1956. The loft was a mixture from different lofts. They were long distance racers. Alas in 1957 on the dates of 13th & 20th of January this strain of outstanding pigeons were sold in Brussels and in Antwerp. Sadness for an end to a partnership."

Huysken and Van Reil liked their checks. Their loft was made up of BC's and DC's with a lot of slash and white flights. A PT member stated he knows a guy who has been breeding the HVR's for 30 years without crossing in other blood and he has black HVR's. What about the 28-29 years of breeding before he got them.

Now. Today we are talking about the black HVR's being sold all over the world. I remember the conversations 25 years ago about all of the Blue Bar HVR's being sold when they didn't breed BB's.

Delbar at that time stated some of H-VR's birds came from his loft. The fact is, seeing that the H-VR loft was a mixture from different lofts some of the birds sold as H-VR's were bred by Delbar and other lofts and many of the rest were from crosses of birds from other lofts. They did not feel or claim to have their own family of birds just great birds from crossing good blood from theirs and other lofts. Yet here we are 58 years later thinking we have Cois Huysken's and Jef Van Reil's pigeons.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

I believe there are no "pure" strains. If one were to look back far enough in the lineage you would find some other "strain" there. Yet sellers still advertise their birds as one strain or another. I also get a kick out of birds that are advertised as being for example "Hollywood" bloodline. When you look on the pedigree the Hollywood blood is only there 2 out of the 14 birds in the pedigree. I put this topic in the same category as "equal first". No such a thing, either the bird was 1st or it wasn't. On a very rare occasion 2 birds may electronically clock at he same time but if the clock could register at 1/1000000th of a second I doubt the birds would be exactly the same time.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

akbird said:


> I believe there are no "pure" strains. If one were to look back far enough in the lineage you would find some other "strain" there. Yet sellers still advertise their birds as one strain or another. I also get a kick out of birds that are advertised as being for example "Hollywood" bloodline. When you look on the pedigree the Hollywood blood is only there 2 out of the 14 birds in the pedigree. I put this topic in the same category as *"equal first". No such a thing, either the bird was 1st or it wasn't.* On a very rare occasion 2 birds may electronically clock at he same time but if the clock could register at 1/1000000th of a second I doubt the birds would be exactly the same time.


I am guilty of this one... If I have 5 birds on the first drop and they take 1st through 5th place in the race I will call the other 4 equal 1st. The 5 of them beat all of my competition and any one of them could have had 1st place if they would have trapped a little faster.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well there may not be HVR's but back in the 60's we imported Van Reil pigeons from Jeff and till another member imported Jansens we could not be beat. Never had a black one either.
Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Most of the Jansen bird were down from The Half Fabry so I guess even their birds are not pure.
Dave


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Huyskens - Van Riel Bloodlines*

Back in the early 50's a great man by the name of "PAUL V. VEEGAETE " introduced several families of pigeons to USA fanciers. He imported the birds - sold young for $10 each. Keep each family separate and you could even buy the imports for $40. He introduced the HUYSKENS - VAN RIEL

birds as early as 1955. He had BB , DC , BC AND SEVERAL WERE SPLASHED -they were imported direct from HUYSKENS-VAN RIEL. 
Many fanciers obtained the HVR'S at this time. We called them "HUYSKENS- VAN RIEL " What were we to call them ? Several fanciers crossed them ,others keeper them straight from the birds they obtained from PAUL V. VEEGAETE.
GENERATIONS OF BIRDS HAVE BEEN BRED FROM THE VEEGAETE BIRDS and many still give credit to HUYSKENS - VAN RIEL BLOODLINES.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

ace in the hole said:


> *Just a little wake up call for those of you who think you have HVR's in your loft today.*
> 
> Because of conversations on another thread I decided to get the facts and here is what I found.
> 
> ...


Hi Ace,

Your right the correct term for people who have these or any other bloodlines is to say their bird are "decended from" Jansen, SVR, Sion waterhouse and many many others. 

For most of us who have been around awile, the individual birds performances and those of its close relatives is what counts the most. Not where the bird decended from!

Personally I have observed very few birds or fliers who claim their birds are pure anything, win outside of the showroom. If the bird and its decendants cannot perform on the race course(s) then what good are they really? 

To the dedicated racer/fancier not much other than being a pretty bird to show off to others.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Huyskens-Van Riel Bloodlines*

Several fanciers have contacted me about the statement made by " ace in the hole " concerning the HUYSKENS-VAN RIEL PIGEONS. For someone who researched the "HVR HISTORY " as was stated in the post and information is not very accurate concerning ORIGINAL HUYSKENS -VAN RIEL BIRDS IMPORTED BY PAUL V. VEEGAETE TO USA.
As stated before the birds were BB , BC , DC and some were splashed in color.
WITHOUT GOING INTO GREAT DETAIL THE POST IS NOT VERY ACCURATE !


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I have been following the post a little killing time when I should be working. 

What is not accurate about the original post? Is it that he said there was no bb or blacks bred from the original HVR birds? 

If I am reading correctly, 70 years ago there was a partnership that was dominating races. Blowing away the competition. These birds were a collection of birds from other lofts some with unknown or undisclosed parentage. The partners liked a certain type of bird and selected (breeding & acquisition) towards that type of bird. Due to the fact they were winning people wanted HVR birds, so they sold some. 

Do people really claim to have have direct decedents from that partnership? 50-70 generations later you are still working off the same bloodlines the partnership was breeding?


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Hvr Bloodlines*

1. Never in any article , information was " DELBAR " NAME EVER MENTION.
2. Huysken - Van riel HAD 2 OUTSTANDING FOUNDATION PAIRS
3.Paul V. Veegaete had several breeding list and information about the partners 
if you are interested look them up.

I said the post was not correct and tried to be nice about it . Their is plenty of correct information about " HVR BIRDS " in print - look it up.
I don't know about any other color than BB , DC , BC and some splashed.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Hvr Bloodlines*

Yes , 60 years later -their are lofts that continue to carry the bloodlines obtained from "VEEGAETE". SOME HAVE BEEN CROSSED and SOME KEEPED WITHIN THE HVR BLOOD. Why , is that so surprising. Not EVERBODY RUNS OUT AND GETS NEW BIRDS EVERY YEAR. That is problem with many fanciers , they have no family .


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Bob, your damage control is going to blow up In your face. Your statements are in-accurate. But I will give you a chance to retract them. It's late, I'm tired from scuba diving the lobster opener today. I'm getting married tomorrow and off for a weekend honeymoon so it may be Tuesday or Wednesday before I will be able to post the articles for you. Just yahoo search their names, look into images for the pic of both of them with a bunch of their BC, DC and splash/white flights. then read the article including the part were it states Delbar clamed...

These breeders who have as you say "KEEPED WITHIN THE HVR BLOOD"
They went 60 years without going outside their own loft of birds direct from H-VR.s loft right? They selected and bred exactly as H-VR would have right. Because of breeding selection after two or three generations of breeding by others who do not have the stock sense one of these boy's had their work was lost. Now we are talking about birds being bred 25 to 50+ generations later. Then on top of that add in the new blood that has been added over the years.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi Bob,

I am not trying to be disagreeable or stir the pot. You mention the partnership had two outstanding foundation pairs. There is no way of figuring it out but I wonder what percentage of blood actually comes from those foundation birds in those that have kept in pure HVR blood with no crosses. It is surprising to me in many ways. 

One is just the math. With people the time between generations is about 25 years. Pigeons it is a year. We could be talking about 70 generations removed from the original pairs the partnership had. The math is astounding. 

To make it simpler lets look at just 20 generations. Lets say we have a pure HVR pigeon at auction. On a pedigree you have that pigeon, then its parents, grandparents, great grandparents if you could go back to the 18th great grandparent. The line on the pedigree for the 18th great grandparent would have 524,288 cocks and 524,288 hens. That pigeon at auction has in 20 generations 2,097,151 direct ancestors. Out of 2,097,151 pigeons I find it hard to believe that they would all stem from two outstanding foundation pairs.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

bob prisco said:


> Yes , 60 years later -their are lofts that continue to carry the bloodlines obtained from "VEEGAETE". SOME HAVE BEEN CROSSED and SOME KEEPED WITHIN THE HVR BLOOD. Why , is that so surprising. Not EVERBODY RUNS OUT AND GETS NEW BIRDS EVERY YEAR. *That is problem with many fanciers , they have no family .*


As for this statement. After they have bred their own birds their way for two or three generations they have a Family. Their own family of birds. no one else has bred or selected the exact blood they have. One great breeding can make a family and one year of poor selection can ruin a family of birds.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Hvr Bloodlines*

GENTLEMEN ,I have no other response - believe what you want.


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

*strains*

There are too many people who are obssesed with strains and names.
There is no pure HVR, Sions, Wegge, Grondlears, Hofkens, Janessens, Jan Aardens, Stassarts and many other names that we still use to describe our pigeons today. Even back when these fanciers were still alive their birds were crossed with birds from other lofts.
It is good that we still give them credit for their contributions to the sport and the development of the modern racing pigeon, but in reality once you get a pigeon in your loft and you pair it up to another pigeon of your choice then you are the breeder of that pigeons offspring and its no longer a Ganus or Clausing or whoever you got the bird from. 
Another reason why these names are still used is because they became famous and its easier to sell birds that have famous names behind them even if they have never been raced or tested. when I want to sell a bird out of my 5x first place champion cock and my champion hen who scored in nine races in a row most people would not pay as much as they would pay for a bird that Ganus, Nanez or Clausing might have raised from stock birds that never seen the inside of the basket, because its a Kal bird and no one knows Kal because he doesn't put full page ads in shiny magazines and he doesn't have fancy names for his birds. 
There are pure good bird and pure mediocre birds and pure junk regardless of the strain and breeders names.

here are a couple of links to Ad Shaerlaekens articles that can be very helpful for people who are stuck on names.

http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/upload/part02.htm
http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/upload/par30.htm
http://schaerlaeckens.mikehopman.nl/pages/leesartikel.php?id=440


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

*Hvr*

Four years ago there was a fall club auction in our club for birds that belonged to a guy who passed away. I was told that he had spent more than $26000 for his breeders and most of them were HVR from the Jones boys, and Lou Colleta. Mark might know who I'm talking about since he used to be a member of the FM club. 
Since the guy was ill the year before and did not race but raised and banded many youngsters I was able to buy six pairs from the young birds that he raised for cheep. they were very pretty birds dark checks and velvet splashes.eight of the birds were "pure" HVR two were high percentage HVR, the last pair cock was labeled Cattryse/JanssenBB and the hen was Short face/Jones boys HVR BBspl 
I bred youngster out of them and flew them the next racing season. by the end of the racing season I had only two birds left out of the pure and 3/4 HVR, only one of them scored in a race then they both were lost by third old bird race. so I got rid of all of them exept two very good looking dark velevet cocks and crossed them on two of my better hens and still got JUNK young birds. I vowed to never bring anything called HVR into my loft after that 

From the Cattryse/Janssen cock and the Short face/HVR hen I raised four birds that year and had three left, at the end of the season, one of the four was my 2012 YB champion hen 117Lm 2012 and her brother LM 172 who also scored that year and every year after that and another sister that was an Ok racer but not good enough to keep. I call that pair my $10 pair, they also produced second champion bird in 2013 and three good ones in 2014. now I have five Siblings on my old bird team and six on the YB teem from my $10 pair.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Kalscoop said:


> There are too many people who are obssesed with strains and names.
> There is no pure HVR, Sions, Wegge, Grondlears, Hofkens, *Janessens,* Jan Aardens, Stassarts and many other names that we still use to describe our pigeons today. Even back when these fanciers were still alive their birds were crossed with birds from other lofts.
> It is good that we still give them credit for their contributions to the sport and the development of the modern racing pigeon, but in reality once you get a pigeon in your loft and you pair it up to another pigeon of your choice then you are the breeder of that pigeons offspring and its no longer a Ganus or Clausing or whoever you got the bird from.
> Another reason why these names are still used is because they became famous and its easier to sell birds that have famous names behind them even if they have never been raced or tested. when I want to sell a bird out of my 5x first place champion cock and my champion hen who scored in nine races in a row most people would not pay as much as they would pay for a bird that Ganus, Nanez or Clausing might have raised from stock birds that never seen the inside of the basket, because its a Kal bird and no one knows Kal because he doesn't put full page ads in shiny magazines and he doesn't have fancy names for his birds.
> ...


The Janssen's are the only one that I know people who have birds with parents direct out of the Janssen brothers loft. So for them the "BLOOD" may be pure but odds are 97% of those breedings being done are from pairings the brothers would have not selected in their loft. They are being selected and bred as Smith's or Jones's ex.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

You got me there... I guess once I misspelled them it must have stuck in my head that way. I guess I should add that I did mean that other Husykens - Van Riel family of birds as well.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Modern racehorses are virtually all descended from a legendary British stallion called Eclipse, a new study has confirmed.


Researchers found racehorses have far less variability of male chromosomes than other domestic animals do.

They also confirmed that almost all English Thoroughbreds contain DNA from the famous stallion Eclipse.


The scientists discovered that almost all English Thoroughbreds originate from the stallion Eclipse






A LEGENDARY STALLION



Foaled during and named after the solar eclipse of 1 April 1764, Eclipse was an undefeated 18th-century British Thoroughbred racehorse who won 18 races, including 11 King's Plates. 


Super stallion Eclipse's descendants include Kauto Star and Desert Orchid and almost all thoroughbred racehorses.

After retiring from racing he became a very successful sire


Eclipse died due to an attack of colic on 27 February 1789, at the age of 24. His skeleton is now housed at the Royal Veterinary College, Hertfordshire
.
It has long been known that the female DNA – mitochondrial DNA – in modern horses is extremely diverse but, until recently, essentially no sequence diversity had been detected on the Y chromosome – the male DNA - of the domestic horse.


This left scientists unable to trace male lineages with confidence and begged the question as to how a species could have so many female lines and so few male lines.


However, the question has now been solved by Dr Barbara Wallner and colleagues at the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics, University of Veterinary Medicine, Vienna, who have discovered that almost all English Thoroughbreds contain DNA from the famous stallion Eclipse.


Dr Wallner initially selected seventeen horses from a range of European breeds. 

She pooled their DNA and used modern sequencing technology to examine the level of diversity of the Y chromosome she had previously sequenced. 


The Y chromosomes were found to be highly similar - only five positions turned out to be variable. 

She said: ‘The results confirmed what we had previously suspected - that the Y chromosomes of modern breeds of horse show far less variability than those of other domestic animals.’


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I posted the above article to feed your minds with some information that could shed some light on the this subject of family lines. Pigeons like horses are well documented when it comes to a championship caliber animal . I've read articles on Lou Coletta who was at the finial sale in 1957 of Huyskens and Van Riel where Lou bought 3 dark checkered birds which he bred his family from keeping them extremely inbred as he followed their (H+VR) breeding techniques completely. I believe that some people who make Pigeon racing their game could keep that winning blood alive, just as the decedents of Eclipse is still alive today . Are they the exact same birds ? No of course not but the DNA is there after all when one breeds any animal you would only keep the ones which measure up to the standard set by the original. This discussion could go on into how one builds and maintains a family from a super birds and like the article above a person must bring some science into this and the laws of heredity and which chromosome carries what and which parent pass what to their offspring . 

I can't prove anything with DNA because I simply don't have the proof but I do own Birds that are related to distant champions like Janssens 019 and G Vandenabeeles " Bliksem" , "Wittenbuik", "Picanol " and "Kleinen" . Are they the same ? Probably not , but I would bet money that the carry the same champion blood that made the origionals winners and stud sires for the original breeders. The name could be HVR, Janssen, Meuleman it really doesn't matter what ever trips your trigger as they say . I'm certainly not going to keep any poor performers or animals that don't fit the standard and I'm certainly not going to name them after myself because it just wouldn't sound good, after all I didn't create the family I'm just going to try to continue it. Oh yea and I'm going to cross my birds so I think I'll call them VanJans or maybe JanVans or G-Jans but definitely not EricBirds maybe I'll call them the Big Easy Birds. Get it ! E for Eric.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I have an old 8 track tape of Mike Ganus,and a few of his buddies who went on a visiting tour of the Janssen Bros,Ad Scherlakens,and Jeff Van Riel.....Mike made purchases of babies,and bought a pair of beautiful DC yb`s from Jeff Van Riel....Who is a a son of the Van Riel/Husken`s partnership...If anyone had original HVR,Jeff would be the one....He is a diamond cutter by trade,and his loft is in his home upstairs...A beautiful home also,shaped like a lazy "V"....As far as the 1/2 Fabry purchased by the Bros....It was a Janssen/Fabry cross,in which this was a very strong racer/breeder...Everyone bothered the Bros,for Red Check pigeons...So they bought the RC pigeon that was half Janssen,and crossed that bird in to get some great Red`s,so us American`s could be happy....I`m happy,because I have a few Janssen/Stassart RC`s in my loft....If you wanted to buy an original Jannsen RC or BC,Dr Mike Brown(Skylake Sions) loft,sold 4 YB`s from the pair that he purchased from the Bros,so whoever purchased those birds on IPigeon,got ORIGINAL Janssen pigeons....Wish I would have bought one.....Alamo


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

gbhman said:


> Flap, you are missing a whole lot with this kind of thinking. You make it sound as if a pigeon can and will only be bred at one year of age, hence so many generations between them. What happens to all the 10+ year old birds who are still fertile??? I have birds in my loft who are 3 generations removed from the 70's... that's no where near what you make it out to sound like. Also keep in mind young bird races were no where near as popular back then as they are now... so how many year old breeders do you think they had? I would wager to say they had more older breeders than one year olds as they would be flying those yearlings in races yet.


That is why I only used 20 generations instead of 58. It was 58 years ago when the partners sold their birds. The birds were made of of crossing of different strains. I have no idea what the selection criteria was the the partners used to select their stock. If someone was privy to that knowledge and was tutored by these great pigeon men, if they selected pairings the same way that the partnership did I guess I would feel good about calling birds from such a fancier HVR birds. 

What I think happened is these guys had a keen sense of selecting great birds. That is some percentage of the equation, maybe %50 was the birds, the other 50% of the equation is they were meticulous in caring for the birds, loft conditions were perfect, training and motivation was spot on. The combination of these two things made them the competitors they were. 

I think their legend came after that. The reason we are still talking about HVR birds that were sold in 1957 I think is because huge sums of money have been spent on the birds. If you spend that kind of money you are going to talk about it and how great the birds are. In order to keep selling the birds and the offspring of the birds you want people to keep talking about them. Heck write a book keep the legend alive and keep selling birds. 

I don't want to have this come off as disrespectful towards the great pigeon racers of the past or their great birds. I do think if any of these men were around today with the skills they had, could go to several lofts anywhere in country and select a group of random birds based on their selection criteria and after a few years breeding and racing those birds have the success they had in the past.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Flapdoodle....Well said.....My dad always said,he could get a baby from under a bridge,and get it to win a 100 mile race in a few months...I believed my dad because he was a GREAT pigeon handler,which I am NOT !!!............Alamo


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think we would all be surprised when we read the history of the greats and how their strains were not really strains at all. They would swap birds often, bring new birds in etc. You were bound to see their greats in the pedigrees, but other than that pedigrees were hodge podge of other birds. In the US we worry about strains, lines etc much more than they did. The worry about great birds. What we think is pure of a guys line might be the cross he tried the year before.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

All of this discussion is based on how each of us define or use the word "strain" and "pure". 

What most of us are looking for when we search for a family or strain, is to capitalize on the success of the breeder by getting stock as closely bred to the successful generations as possible. The strain or family label is just that - a label, not a definition of purity. Strains or families have certain traits that people look for. How else are we supposed to identify or shop for them if we can't put a label to them? 

It's frankly just easier to say "Gaby" than to say "I'd like middle distance to long distance birds proven in national competition across the globe in headwinds, tough weather, varying terrain, succeed with diverse handling techniques and that have medium to small bodies and fairly line-bred to only a handful of foundation birds". 

Now, if someone is looking for a strain from a breeder that is long gone, then yeah, they have their work cut out for them. But I don't think it's fair to say "HVR doesn't exist anymore" when it's entirely possible that there are active breeders today who are winning with ancestors of the originals and whose characteristics are in line with the originals.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

@ David, Gaby pigeons in your loft, I can buy into that idea much easier than HVR pigeons. 

One is relevant, been dominating the past 30 years and still racing, the other a partnership loft that that sold out in 1957. 

I can also buy into the fact that there may be guys that are continuing to breed birds that descend from HVR birds. 

It would be cool to get a crate of those birds and go in my time machine to 1957 and see what Jef Van Riel though of them. 

Lastly if you do have any "Gaby" pigeons you were wanting to part with I will send you a postage paid shipping box.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Flapdoodle said:


> @ David, Gaby pigeons in your loft, I can buy into that idea much easier than HVR pigeons.
> 
> One is relevant, been dominating the past 30 years and still racing, the other a partnership loft that that sold out in 1957.
> 
> ...


Yeah, like I said, they'd have their work cut out for them trying to find clones of the '57-style Van Riel's. That's why I went with the current stuff (Gaby). But even in the case of my birds, I find it more appropriate to call them M&D Evans' Gaby's since they've had 20 years breeding them. At the root - still Gaby - but they have Evans' fingerprints all over them. Again, it's just a label that helps us know the source and something about the traits of the birds without having to go into a long description.

I'll be sure to let you know if I'm parting with any of my "Stephenson/M&D Evans/Gaby/Valère Desmet-Matthys/Pol Bostyn/Lucien Verstraete pigeons


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## capttom50 (Feb 23, 2017)

*Beeley*

The late Pete Beeley was known for his HVRs. I bought HVRs from him before his passing and the pedigrees are loaded with Old school HVRs. Most birds have at least 1 white flight. I have been breeding to keep these birds as straight as possible. These Birds are phenomenal racers.
A Pure Strain of anything is open to ones own definition. I call my strain Huysken Van Beeley.


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## donc (Dec 8, 2017)

It may interest you to know that one of the top loft in Sydney is still racing the Huysken-Van Reil pigeon, in fact the family has been keep for over 40 years now. To give you an idea of how well this loft does with the HVR's. 

The Central Cumberland Pigeon Federation is the biggest Pigeon Federation in Australia with average 400 flyers per year flying a 25 bird limit. 

This year the federation was down to 100 flyers due to a new pigeon disease hitting Australia. With season being reduced 21 races from 100 miles to 600 miles down to 10 races.

The loft in question still managed to win 3 1st federation and 2 – 2nd federation prizes from 8 races despite missing two races. 

In fact in recent years this loft managed to in one season win four federation races including a national with most races averaging over 8000 birds. 

As you can see some lofts still have original HVR blood and they are still awesome pigeon. 

I have looked at certain people pigeons who are selling them under the HVR label and to be honest I wouldn't spent two cents on them. The best HVR pigeons I have seen in the US are Lou's and I know he is friends with the loft in Sydney. 


Neither of these lofts need to use the HVR name or give credit if they want to sell pigeons, their own reputations can stand up alone. However both do acknowledge the fact their pigeons are HVR pigeons and give credit to both the gentlemen who created the HVR family of pigeons.


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