# Is this Dilute Brown?



## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

Bought a camera today, now just got to work out how to use it LOL


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

*Tail Picture*

Tail looks browner than this photo is showing,this is the first bird Ive noticed with olive green eyes,is it a young bird thing that will change as it ages?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Looks like dilute blue to me, but that is just my thoughts. I look at the flights and tail to make determinations. White flights don't help but the tail looks a lot more like dilute blue than even brown let alone dilute brown. I think a photo of the tail would help out.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I guess I spoke too soon as you have the tail shot as I was posting. I'm going with dilute blue.


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

Yeah, I thought it was too much to wish for,here is a picture of Dad, hes loaded with RR/Dilute/Heavy Bronze/Pied/Grizzle/ he is throwing all sorts of colors


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi Don, Yeah I assumed dilute blue when you mentioned it on the other thread. An intense brown would look a lot like this bird with a dilute brown (khaki) being very light, almost like a light ash yellow bar but with a tail bar and a brownish tinge.


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

ok so the question for me is,if the brown/khaki appearance is due to dilute bronze, is this a color worth pursuing, by removing grizzle and just leaving undergrizzle and trying to create a solid color, here is a picture of my false almond, the question being , do we work with existing colors,ie true performing rollers or outcross?I could outcross to an oriental roller perhaps,how much is lost, anyone outcrossed a performing breed and how many generations to bring the standard back in the air?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

What exactly is this false almond? I would've sworn this bird is a true almond.

Anyway, I am not sure what you mean by brown/khaki appearance. Your young dilute grizzle does not look at all like khaki to me, khaki is much lighter and is more easily confused with dilute ash-red than dilute blue. Dilute and brown are often mistaken for one another, but fading due to sun exposure is usually enough to tell the birds apart.

As to your question about whether the color is worth pursuing? Only you can answer that question. If you personally like the colour, then of course it is worth pursuing. If you don't like the colour, why bother pursuing it?

When performing breeds are under discussion, it is important to note that it could take many generations to breed performance back into the birds. I have homer x archangel crosses that have been back-crossed to homers (ie. arhcnagel grandmother on only one side), they show very good homing ability, but lack the speed/stamina of the pure strains. They sometimes take more than a day to come home, while the pure homers are home within an couple of hours. Interestingly, F1 homer x barb crosses also home quite well, but take up to 3 days to get home.

In other words, it is important to choose the right outcross also. Outcrossing to birds of similar ancestry will probably allow you to breed performance back in fewer generations.


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

Heres dilute brown for you to see - both with bronze ofcourse.









Dilute brown cheq.









Dilute brown bar.

Thanks

Lloyd


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi Rudolph
False Almond is my frustrating description of a bird that breeds Blacks out of a Blue Tpat hen,I would love to think he is simply holding out on me but Ive pulled about 8 chicks off him,also he is very old and has not darkened at all,I thought maybe he was Qualmond, but think now he is just Het Red carrying nice Black tics and Bronze on a Spread bird.I would like to duplicate him,I like him.
I have put up a photo of the nest mate to the light colored hen,she is a hen also,so they are both very different looking Duns?
I think the color would be nice on a self bird,to compliment my yellows,but Im guessing its mainly due to bronze, although it doesn't look like sulphor to me.The problem Im foreseeing is, the best expression of Bronze I get is with Grizzle,Spread changes Grizzle to Mottle,Im thinking the color is going to disappear?
The outcross is the purists dilemma isnt it,I have never done it but Im not superstitious about it.I think it would be better to go to a hard feathered performing bird with roll and inherent ability to evade falcons/hawks than to breed to a show birmingham.
I have read you can be back square in 7 generations,thats tempting,a problem for me is these birds are down south and there is a disease outbreak down there at the moment that looks quite nasty,so I wouldnt be risking it.
Hi Lloyd,nice birds thanks for the photos,
Regards Don


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Eventually you will probably get an almond. But an ash-red spread carrying blue is possible.


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi mary, yes thats the point, no Almond,so you still think it could be one and its holding out on me,it better hurry up,Ive had it for 11 years and it was an old bird when I got it LOL


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

If you say he has not darkened at all over the years, I don't think he is an almond. Statistically, it is also very improbable (almost astronomically so) to breed 8 of 8 non-almonds from an almond bird. The probability is 0.39 %. That means if a thousand different people were to breed 8 young from a het. almond male only 4 people would get the same result as you, and 996 people would get at least one almond.

If you'd like to do the calculations yourself, I recommend reading Richard Cryberg's article on Ron Huntley's website.


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks Rudolph,in the all the time ive been visiting Rons site Ive missed that piece on Stats very interesting
Regards Don


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Wether this bird is almond or het. ash red, the odds of raising no almond or ash babies are the same. Am I correct?


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

the 8th bird has just feathered out ash red, so 7 coin tosses have come up heads not that unlikely
Don


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## donhallnz (Apr 18, 2012)

plus he has just raised 4 birds out of 3 rounds, ie 2 infertile/non viable eggs,they could have been Ash Red,he is very old Im surprised hes still fertile


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