# Found sick dove



## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

This dove kept sitting in my garden for a couple of days, then unusually she came down and just sat on the table outside my window, so we caught her with a net, she seemed like she has a cold,
i have been keeping her warm in a cage, she has eaten a little and had water, is there anything i can give her, her breathing sounds alright, she just looks a bit down and droopy like a human whwn they have a cold. thanks Karen


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello Karen,

Can you tell us what country you are in and what sort of dove it is? It sounds as if it will need antibiotics and with any luck we can link you to a sanctuary or vet which will help.

As she is ill, handle her as little as possible to keep her calm and wash your hands after touching her. Keep her in a different room from any other birds you have.

She could probably do with a direct source of warmth such as a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel.

If you mix one pint of warm water with one half teaspoon of salt and one half dessert spoon glucose or sugar or honey and offer her than instead of plain drinking water that should help. Also cover the cage a bit so that she feels safe and feree from any draughts..

Open her mouth carefully and have a look inside to see if there is anything yellow.

Please keep us updated.


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

*sick bird*

I live in chatham in kent England she is a Collared Dove and seems pretty lively now walking up and down the cage trying to get out, but she seems to have a problem down one side . I phoned the R.S.P.C.A and asked if there was any medicine, but they said 
i should take her in to them, so they can care for her,but to be honest i dont trust them to make her well. and return her to me so i can release her in her own area, there is a lot of trees and farm land and many bird tables around here. any suggestions will be appreciated thankyou


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

For the time being, cover the cage so that she doesn't distress herself (collared doves can get very agitated and even die of a heart attack) but allow her enough ventilation and enough light to eat by. 

Can you give a few more details about her problem down one side? Have you examined her for possible injury? (Difficult, I know, because they are so frightened and squirmy!)

I would not give her to the RSPCA, when the inspectors collect a wild animal they are required to call in for a decision on whether to euthanase or deliver to a sanctuary...delivering to a sanctuary involves extra costs, so it is an unlikely outcome for what they regard as a "pest species".

Here is a list of places near you that can help, I have included the ones in London, but there might be an overlap. If you take her to a sanctuary check whether they have a "no kill" policy. If they don't then keep the dove, there are permanent homes that she can go to if she doesn't make a full recovery.

KENT

FOAL (Friends of Animals League) Farm
Jail Lane,
Biggin Hill,
Kent
TN16 3AX

Phone 01959 572386

You can visit every day, except Tuesday. Open 1.30-4.30pm

Folly Wildlife Rescue
Folly Cottage,
Danegate,
Eridge Green,
Tunbridge Wells,
Kent TN3 9JB

Tel: 01892 750865

Specialises in hand rearing baby birds.

The Retreat
Postal address:
Daltons Road
Crockenhill
Near Swanley
Kent BR8 8EN

Telephone: General enquiries: 01322 614247 / 07720 495238 (any time), or 07941 435829 (only available during daytime).


Willow Wildlife Rescue
Chislehurst
Kent

Emergency ambulance 07956 472 284

Ambulance with boxes, cages nets. Cover South East London and Kent as far as Maidstone. Can provide homeopathic treatment.

LONDON

London Wildcare,
Beddington Park,
Church Road,
Wallington,
Surrey SM6 7NN

020 8647 6230

Have not got the facilities to keep unreleasable pigeons or to care for pigeons suffering from PMV.

http://www.londonwildcaretrust.co.uk...s_hospital.htm

Pigeon Recovery
8 Vermont Road
Sutton
Surrey

If there is no-one in, facilities exist outside the front door for leaving poorly pigeons, and the sanctuary owners are never away overnight. If at all possible, a small contribution posted through the letterbox when you leave the bird(s) would go towards paying for the bird’s treatment, food etc.

http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/recovery/recovery.htm

Swan and Friends Bird Rescue
55 Copsleigh Avenue ,
Salfords,
Redhill,
Surrey RG1 5BQ
Telephone 01737 773712 or 07712 753919

Pigeons count as friends of the swans. Links to other sanctuaries.

Wild Rescue and Ambulance Service (Enfield)
Wildlife Hospital & Animal Centre
Trent Park
Cockfosters Road
Barnet
EN4 0PS

Tel: 0208 344 2785 or 07970 141282

Email address: [email protected]

http://www.wras-enfieldwildlife.org.uk/gallerybirds.html


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

*sick dove*

Thankyou for all your help, she seems to limp to the right and her wing on the right is drooping down lower than the left side, there's no sign of any injury on the outside. A vet has suggested without seeing her that she may have some soft tissue damage which will repair, plus there is a great improvement from yesterday, when we first brought her in from the cold. They seem to think it may be too much stress for her taking her to the vet. The reason i am assuming she is a girl is i have a male dove that lives free in my house and he keeps bowing to her. Karen


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That sounds very promising!


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

*sick dove*

unfortunately the dove took a turn for the worst, i took her to a vet who told me she had crop canker, so sadly she was put to sleep. The vet gave me baytril and told me to give it to my other dove 10mls daily even though he has no signs and they had very little contact except for my dove getting hold of her beak with his for a split second. Do you think i should do this and will there be any side effects. thankyou Karen.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Crop canker is treatable and not with Baytril. If the case was Crop Canker, first dove died for nothing. Please check what is baytril solution you use 10ml is too much!


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

*sick dove*

the nasty women if you are correct, that the dove died for nothing has given me 5x batryl 2.5% oral and at the bottom says 10 units


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Karen - 

What does it say on the bottle? What we would normallyget here is Baytril 2.5 % solution. If I treat a pigeon for something where Baytril is prescribed I give 0.2 ml - it may be understandable to give a Collared Dove 0.1 ml. But, as Plamenh says, 10 ml has to be wrong! For safeguard against Canker infection, the normal medication here would be Spartrix which does not require a vet's prescription - definitely not Baytril.

John


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

it says 2.5% oral i was given a insulin syringe which counts from 10 to hundred and i was told ton fill it to the 10 mark 



It was only today that i noticed, what i can only describe as a snotty substance bubbling from her mouth, when the vet opened her mouth there was a yellowy yeast type substance and she said it was to far gone for treatment would this be right. I need the right info because i really need to complain to someone heads need to roll especially hers


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

It is to late to complain, life is lost. It happend to me to with one of my first rescues. When you have bad case of canker, sometimes the mouth is full even breathing is a problem, you take q-tip and gently swab it out. You can use olive oil to lubricate q-tip. One needs to be careful as sometimes comes to bleeding. As you get bit opening, give 1/2 Spartrix pill (for dove) and run this dosage for 3 days. It will clear it as never existed. Sometimes bird is starved and needs supportive care (suringe feeding).
To prescribe Baytril for canker, this Vet is not in birds.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

By the way, dosage that John gave you 0.1 ml for dove is correct, but I would not use Baytril as preventive. It can do more harm than good. Rather fet Spartrix and give 1/2 pill or 1 pill to your dove (you will not overdose even with one pill).
Were sick dove in the same cage with your pet dove? Was she eating and drinking from the same dishes? If not then I would not worry of canker infection.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

kartel said:


> it says 2.5% oral i was given a insulin syringe which counts from 10 to hundred and i was told ton fill it to the 10 mark
> 
> It was only today that i noticed, what i can only describe as a snotty substance bubbling from her mouth, when the vet opened her mouth there was a yellowy yeast type substance and she said it was to far gone for treatment would this be right. I need the right info because i really need to complain to someone heads need to roll especially hers


Hi Karen

That sounds like the prescribed dose is *0.1 ml*. I have a syringe here which has markings up to 100, but the figures shown on the syringe are 0.1 (or 0,1), 0.2 etc up to 1.0. The syringe is thin and about 4 inches long. 

The vet definitely said it was crop canker? 

Baytril attacks bacteria. Canker (more properly, Trichomoniasis) is not caused by bacteria, so Baytril is simply not appropriate.

Either Feefo or I can send you the appropriate product. Just private message address.

Right, a yellowish substance in the mouth frequently does indicate canker. The canker adheres to the mouth - usually towards the back of the mouth/throat opening - and a bad case can can be seen having spread to the edges of the beak and force the beak open. If the substance was 'runny' and like mucous, then that could occur as a consequence but on its own could indicate a respiratory problem (Baytril would be appropriate then). We obviously have no way of knowing.

Whichever, the infection can certainly be spread by beak contact, so precautions are in order without doubt.

John


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

The doves were never in the same cage. my dove that i have raised since he was about 4 weeks old and now he is 3 yrs lives free in my house, they did not share food or water bowls. I dont think its to late to complain as i am supposed to be sitting here thinking my dove is protected from canker with baytril, and obviously he is not.


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

John_D said:


> Hi Karen
> 
> That sounds like the prescribed dose is *0.1 ml*. I have a syringe here which has markings up to 100, but the figures shown on the syringe are 0.1 (or 0,1), 0.2 etc up to 1.0. The syringe is thin and about 4 inches long.
> 
> ...


The vet definetly said crop canker and she said it was all through the stomache and up to its throat, and said she had no chance of recovery only pain. Is the medicine your talking about Spartrix as i would not like to put you to all that trouble if i can buy it from a vet or petshop, dont worry this bird is going nowhere near her


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry to hear this, as plamenh has said it is a common mistake that vets make and when you are a new rescuer you have to believe the vet. One of my first rescues was put to sleep under the same circumstances.

I think that it is important that you "re-educate" the vet, perhaps with the support of a local sanctuary like Folly, to ensure that other birds do not suffer the same fate.


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

Feefo said:


> I am so sorry to hear this, as plamenh has said it is a common mistake that vets make and when you are a new rescuer you have to believe the vet. One of my first rescues was put to sleep under the same circumstances.
> 
> I think that it is important that you "re-educate" the vet, perhaps with the support of a local sanctuary like Folly, to ensure that other birds do not suffer the same fate.


thankyou for that advice i will get onto Folly as you say this cannot happen again. This is heartbreaking to realize there was no need to put her to sleep i would have nursed her day and night, i have learned a valueable lesson


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

kartel said:


> .... Is the medicine your talking about Spartrix as i would not like to put you to all that trouble if i can buy it from a vet or petshop, dont worry this bird is going nowhere near her


Karen, it will be no trouble. It isn't usually sold in pet shops, unless they do a lot of pigeon supplies stuff as well. Vet would probably charge over the odds, and to buy on line you end up with dozens more tablets than you need.

John


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

John_D said:


> Karen, it will be no trouble. It isn't usually sold in pet shops, unless they do a lot of pigeon supplies stuff as well. Vet would probably charge over the odds, and to buy on line you end up with dozens more tablets than you need.
> 
> John


i have sent a message


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

kartel said:


> *The vet definetly said crop canker and she said it was all through the stomache and up to its throat, and said she had no chance of recovery only pain*.


I am very sorry to hear about what has happened, Karen. 

It truly is a shame that the vet didn't you, or the little dove, a chance. That's very sad. 

Thank you for doing what you could. 

Cindy


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I am very sorry to hear about what has happened, Karen.
> 
> It truly is a shame that the vet didn't you, or the little dove, a chance. That's very sad.
> 
> ...


thankyou cindy


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

feefo and cynthia, no the vet definetely did not suspect any additional problem, and i pointed out to her that the birds eyes were bright and she had no trouble breathing. I even said to her that i did not care how much treatment would cost i just wanted to make her well, and if there was anything at all i could do to save her life, but she said no there was nothing can be done and if i tried to medicate her she would prolong her suffering and she would die anyway, this was really a terrible thing this vet did and wouldn't have thought a vet, let alone person could be that cruel.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Karen,
However cruel this act there is something you need to know. When one takes wild bird to the Vet, it is either protected species and need to be handled to the wildlife rescue and Vet is obliged by law to treat her, or if it is not protected, you need to state that you will keep bird as a pet (you can say that it is your pet too). In the second case Vet may suggest euthanasia but it is your decision to say yes or no.
Vet will not treat feral pigeon or dove with medicine for canker, most antibiotics and some other medications used on animals and humans because of danger that pathogen (bacteria, protozoa etc.) will build resistance and drug will become inefficient. When returned to the wild, they will spread uncontrollably and endander other birds.
This is what happened with a range of drugs and this is the reason why more and more drugs are placed under control or withdrawn from the market.
It is not you to blame, it is not Vet’s fault, it is our fault that we did not told you about this before you went to the Vet.


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

Thankyou for explaining all that it makes total sense, if only i realized and thought of these points.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

plamenh said:


> Hi Karen,
> However cruel this act there is something you need to know. When one takes wild bird to the Vet, it is either protected species and need to be handled to the wildlife rescue and Vet is obliged by law to treat her, or if it is not protected, you need to state that you will keep bird as a pet (you can say that it is your pet too). In the second case Vet may suggest euthanasia but it is your decision to say yes or no.
> Vet will not treat feral pigeon or dove with medicine for canker, most antibiotics and some other medications used on animals and humans because of danger that pathogen (bacteria, protozoa etc.) will build resistance and drug will become inefficient. When returned to the wild, they will spread uncontrollably and endander other birds.
> This is what happened with a range of drugs and this is the reason why more and more drugs are placed under control or withdrawn from the market.
> It is not you to blame, it is not Vet’s fault, it is our fault that we did not told you about this before you went to the Vet.



Plamenh, this may be universally true where *you* are, *but it is an inaccurate generalization for the UK*.

Vets may or may not treat feral pigeons, collared doves, wood pigeons and some other species, at their discretion.

Many vets, it is true, will not treat ferals and often some others on the schedule of the Wildlife Acts which refer to what were known as 'pest species'.They may not even agree to even see them at all. The vets we know about who refuse to deal with ferals do not refuse because of some fanciful concern about drug resistance, but simply because they don't believe ferals are worth saving! 

However, some most certainly *will* see and prescribe. I can absolutely vouch for that in at least four instances from my personal experience, OK? Were it not so, many of our rescues would not be alive today!

Also, whatever the theory not all vets will see wild birds of *any* kind. We changed to another vet when the original one said "We won't deal with birds any more". 

Do *not* post 'information' that people 'need to know' which is just plain wrong!

John


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

My deepest apologies John_D for worldwide generalization of my post.
It is based on my information about South Africa by talking to avian Vets and some drug manufacturers. One of these manufacturers is Bayer SA and I wasn't aware that drug resistance is building only on local level. I’m talking first hand experience here.
I will not bother to mention internet resources that are not South African as this is not first hand experience and I can’t vouch for them and I could easily be miss leaded.

In this case I'm excluding any non South African Veterinarian doctors who put feral pigeon and dove down because of canker, they do not do it because of possibilities of drug resistance, I guess they simply do not know that canker can be treated or have some other reason to kill the bird. Please do not jump on this it is based only on what is written.

You are using following statement:
The vets we know about who refuse to deal with ferals do not refuse because of some fanciful concern about drug resistance, but simply because they don't believe ferals are worth saving!

And Karin stated in her post:
I even said to her that I did not care how much treatment would cost I just wanted to make her well.

Veterinarian treatment is not part of social security in UK, yes? They work for money and charge client for services, yes?

And yes there are some good Doctors who will go to any extent to help birds to live. As far as I know you are keeping a list of them and they are minority otherwise you will keep a list of the other ones.

Please ignore my previous post it is inaccurate and applies for South Africa only.

And John_D thank you for helping me correct wrong information I posted. I do it only to help rescuers and their birds as per my best knowledge and experience.
I will appreciate any future help and guidance.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> The vets we know about who refuse to deal with ferals do not refuse because of some fanciful concern about drug resistance, but simply because they don't believe ferals are worth saving!


Sadly this was my experience with the pigeon with canker that I took to a vet. He was very healthy and strong! First she said that she did not believe in trying to save a bird that other people were trying to kill!  Then, when I insisted and said I wanted it to be treated as a pet she said it had canker, couldn't be treated, would die and that she would say the same even if it was a £2,000 racing pigeon. I knew no better then so had to agree.

But it is incidents like these that have led so many of us to become feral pigeon rescuers and to help others .

What I have to say, Karen, is that not all birds with canker survive with treatment. Sometimes the nodules have damaged other organs, or broken through the oesophagus to the trachea. With treatment they stand a chance, usually a good chance, of recovery.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Plamenh - you are a gracious man.

As far as advice goes - be assured, across the whole spectrum of pigeon life I am conversant with a few things, and know little about many 

John


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

Unfortunately these pills you sent me still have not arrived.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Karen - sent first class postage on Thursday morning. Seems like our postal service isn't getting any better!

John


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

this is such a sad ending (and preventable) everyone is right, canker is very treatable.
i get doves and pigeons with it all the time.
i have had a couple that had it so bad that once cured of the infection their beaks didn't align properly because the canker had ate away so much and they couldn't be released, but i found homes for them, and they are living happy lives
i usually use flagyl for the more severe cases and sometimes they have to stay on it a little longer than prescribed but it does go away, sometimes they need supportive care, like being force fed.
i say you print all this out and send it to that vet, maybe she will make the right decision next time


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

John_D said:


> Karen - sent first class postage on Thursday morning. Seems like our postal service isn't getting any better!
> 
> John


thankyou.

karen


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

altgirl35 said:


> this is such a sad ending (and preventable) everyone is right, canker is very treatable.
> i get doves and pigeons with it all the time.
> i have had a couple that had it so bad that once cured of the infection their beaks didn't align properly because the canker had ate away so much and they couldn't be released, but i found homes for them, and they are living happy lives
> i usually use flagyl for the more severe cases and sometimes they have to stay on it a little longer than prescribed but it does go away, sometimes they need supportive care, like being force fed.
> i say you print all this out and send it to that vet, maybe she will make the right decision next time


thankyou for your concern this was a terrible thing, cant get it out of my head even having trouble sleeping, the part i played in this, i felt this poor little dove trusted me, having her for only two days she walked straight towards me when i went to her cage, so terribly wrong and sad. Can you tell me if this flagyl is the same as the humans pill flagyl or especially for birds. Karen


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i'm so sorry your sad, it's not your fault, you were just trying to help her, and took the word of someone who should know better.
i believe its the same medicine flagyl (Metronidazole)


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

thankyou John i received the pills today. My Dove is not showing any signs of the illness, should i still give them to him. Karen


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I would give her single pill as it was exposed to contact with the sick dove and
keep the rest of the pills for emergencies.
Single pill is ussually enough to fight mild canker infection, in severe cases one pill per day for three days in the row.


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

I have managed to catch another dove with Canker he has exactly the same symtons as previous dove that the vet put to sleep, This one is not going to the vet. John D i have given the dove one pill which leaves me with half a pill, i wondered if you have them could you send me a dozen and i will send a cheque for pill and postage, or tell me the best place to buy them from. Will my other dove be safe in the same room or is this airborne the sick dove is in a cage and my dove lives free in my house. After the three days on pills when will the dove be safe to mix with other birds or my bird. thankyou from Karen


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

kartel said:


> I have managed to catch another dove with Canker he has exactly the same symtons as previous dove that the vet put to sleep, This one is not going to the vet. John D i have given the dove one pill which leaves me with half a pill, i wondered if you have them could you send me a dozen and i will send a cheque for pill and postage, or tell me the best place to buy them from. Will my other dove be safe in the same room or is this airborne the sick dove is in a cage and my dove lives free in my house. After the three days on pills when will the dove be safe to mix with other birds or my bird. thankyou from Karen


Thankyou very much, John for the 6 pills. i hope i can help this dove it does not seem to be a severe case, as he is eating still but with a little difficulty, when i caught him i had to clean all the seeds from around the beak which was sticky, i saw him eating all day so i wont try to feed yet, i will just watch and see if he eats. thankyou for your help. from Karen


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Welcome, Karen.

Keeping the dove warm and ensuring he drinks is important, of course. So far it sounds not so bad, but check that he poops OK, too. If the canker has got to the crop it can prevent the food getting out and through the system.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Will my other dove be safe in the same room or is this airborne the sick dove is in a cage and my dove lives free in my house. After the three days on pills when will the dove be safe to mix with other birds or my bird. thankyou from Karen


Hi Karen,

Canker itself is spread by the saliva eg shared water, fighting, feeding young, billing in courtship and picking up seed that has been discarded by an affected dove...*BUT* we can never be certain that canker is all a dove has, other diseases are airborne or spread by droplets so it is better to keep the sick dove in a separate room from your other birds. This thread of John's recent experience illustrates the potential danger of letting a new bird mix with others too soon: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=42267&referrerid=560


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

Dove seems a lot better today he is eating and drinking well, and preening himself. Can spartrix be mixed will porridge and feed through a syringe with the end cut off, will it work the same as pushing pill into beak, it seems more comfortable for the bird. This is how i feed my dove when he was about 4 weeks old he loved it and it was clean and easy. Thankyou John pills have just arrived in time for last pill. and i have ordered a supply of 50, do you know how long they keep. from karen


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The shelf life is pretty long - those I sent are good for 5 years from date of manufacture and expire in Oct 2010.

Can't say if crushing and mixing works as well as just giving a tablet or half tablet direct, never done so myself.

John


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

Dove seems alright now, but he has been left with some kind of sore at the top right hand side of his beak, what should i do. Also his poop is black and runny.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

kartel said:


> Dove seems alright now, but he has been left with some kind of sore at the top right hand side of his beak, what should i do. Also his poop is black and runny.


Can you post a picture of the "sore" on the beak? Black and runny poop is not good .. can you post a picture of the poop also? 

Terry


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

TAWhatley said:


> Can you post a picture of the "sore" on the beak? Black and runny poop is not good .. can you post a picture of the poop also?
> 
> Terry


sore has almost cleared after bathing with salt water looked inside mounth and there is one white patch on roof of mouth poop is ok now formed and greenish with white, had advice from feefo and have given another spartrix he had one each day from tuesday to thursday, he is very active and eating and drinking well. Karen

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx237/Karttel/0222.jpg


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the photo, kartel. It sounds like things are going better for this dove. From the photo, I'm still a bit concerned about canker under the tongue in the lower beak area. Can you just have another look, please, and post back .. I'll feel better. The area under the beak looks too "puffy" to me in the photo. Could be normal/nothing .. just want to be sure.

Here's a pic of some of my doves for comparison:










Here's your dove:










Terry


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## kartel (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi Terry, just looked, under the tongue looks clear, yesterday morning there was one white patch on the roof of his mouth, i gave him half a spartrix tablet, as he only weighs 5.5 and i gave him half this morning, do you think this is enough. by the way your doves are beautiful especially the one with the white collar. from Karen.


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