# My small loft design



## Skyglider

After high winds in January, my wife found a squab on the ground in a park where we usually go to for walks. (with zero experience, guess it was about a week old) Thought it was a baby dove but it turned out to be a common blue-gray pigeon that are usually found in parks.

The pigeon is about full size now and my wife has let the pigeon go during the day and it stays around the back yard most of the time but a couple of times it flew away and came back in the late afternoon. We have no idea whether it's a male or female but it has a small female looking head and hardly makes any noise at all so we think it's probably a female (wrong?)

I've decided to build a small loft and in case the pigeon gets pregnant, have about 4 nest boxes where 2 to 4 pairs of pigeons can hang out.

My loft design is only in my mind right now. Hope to get help on whether it will work and for improvements.

DESIGN:

The main enclosure will be about 4 feet square and look similar to this:









The changes are:

WIRE CAGE:
The wire cage would be simpler. Just a frame made out of 2x2 lumber covered with half inch hardware cloth. My idea is to make the cage removeable. Put two "L" shaped metal hooks at the top and hang the wood frame of the wire cage on the hooks. A simple wooden turnable stick on a screw to secure the bottom of the cage. I'll build a door in the cage to be able to shoo the pigeons back into the main enclosure or to let them out for flying.

ROOF:
The tops of the 4 sides would be level. The roof would be at an angle. The space between the roof and the sides will be screened off for ventilation. Maybe 4 inches of vent at the front and tapering to zero on the sides. The roof would have more overhang than shown in the picture. Maybe about 4 inches of overhang at the front, 3 inches of overhang on the sides, and zero overhang at the back.

FLOOR:
I have this idea for the floor. I thought having a wooden floor would be more comfortable for the pigeons to walk on. My idea is to have a piece of plywood that can be slid out for cleaning. Below the plywood (lower floor) would be half inch hardware cloth to keep the pigeons in while cleaning the floor.

The wooden floor would not extend all the way to the back. Maybe about 6 inches of space at the back for ventilation air to flow up through the screened lower floor. I would have a 6 inch piece to fill in the floor vent if I think it's too cold and want to reduce the air flow from the bottom to the top. I could pull the wood floor out to adjust the amount of air flow through the main enclosure on hot days. There would be 1/2 inch of space above the wooden floor when it is partially pulled out to keep rodents out.

TRAP DOOR:
Since we won't stay out while the bird(s) are out, I plan to make a cat proof trap door like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avbzpXllOE0
We don't have any other predators where we live in a suburban neighborhood other than cats and rats. No snakes at all here. Will close the trap door at night to keep the rats out.

FRONT DOOR:
Should the front door be smaller than shown in the picture to keep the birds under control when opened? If smaller, how small?

LIGHTING IN THE MAIN ENCLOSURE:
Do I need to make plexiglass windows so the pigeons will have light in the main enclosure during the day? If so, how many and how large each?

Would you recommend any design changes?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## orock

Sounds like a great little loft. Would be nice if you keep us posted with pics as you put it all together.


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## Skyglider

orock said:


> Sounds like a great little loft. Would be nice if you keep us posted with pics as you put it all together.


Thanks for the encouragement. I will post pictures as I put it together.

Before I start drawing the plans, hope to get answers to some questions I have.

1. How big should the door to the main enclosure be to allow easy access to everything inside of the enclosure but still prevent birds from escaping? Any general guidelines for this?

2. Is the slide out wooden floor "above" the 1/2 inch hardware cloth OK? Is it OK for pigeons to walk on a wooden floor where fresh poop might be? Will the 6 inch wide floor vent spanning the width of the main enclosure at the back be adequate to dry the poop on the wooden floor fast? 

3. I don't see any windows in the picture I posted or in other small loft designs that I found. Won't it be too dark inside for the pigeons without any windows? Will it be worthwhile for me to make two plexiglass windows on both sides? Or are plexiglass windows not necessary with light coming in from the top vents? How much light are pigeons happy with inside of the main enclosure?

4. I plan to make 4 nest boxes on the back wall. Each would be about 21 inches wide. What height and depth for each box is good for pigeons? (I'm thinking 21" wide x 8" high x 10" deep for each box but don't want to regret making wrong size nest boxes).

5. Oh, and one more thing. If our pigeon is a female, will it stay with a male pigeon and not come back if it falls in love? Or vice versa?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Woodnative

Wooden floors are fine. You can put some bediing on top of it, although many of us like to just scrape the wood. A paint scraper or similar work well. The important thing about the inside of the loft is that it is DRY! If it is dry they will stay healthy and droppings will dry quickly. Good ventilation is also important....sounds like you will have that covered. Actually the whole design looks great! 
"She" is probably still too young to determine sex. BTW you could always get "her" a homer or other breed of pigeon mate when you determine the sex later on...........maybe a different color IF you want to have a mix of colors. Be careful letting "her" out alone.......a lone pigeon is attractive to hawks and other predators.


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## lynn g

Be careful of the "no predator" view. If you have birds, "they will come". Everything eats pigeon. I am amazed at the number of ways that pigeons can become dinner for some varmit. I use a Havahart trap on the outside of the loft and catch something about every two weeks. I recently caught an animal that i could not identify but was told it was a civit cat. Some folks called it a pole cat. I thought a pole cat and a skunk were the same thing but obviously not. Racoons are in most cities and they love to have pigeons over for dinner. The best advice i can give you is control the birds time outside and monitor the hawk migrations in your area. At certian times of the year at my home it is a death sentence to loft fly the birds because of hawks. Even saying all of this, i encourage you to keep the birds. Pigeons are my valium and they are a hoot to fool with.


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## Skyglider

Woodnative said:


> Wooden floors are fine. You can put some bediing on top of it, although many of us like to just scrape the wood. A paint scraper or similar work well. The important thing about the inside of the loft is that it is DRY! If it is dry they will stay healthy and droppings will dry quickly. Good ventilation is also important....sounds like you will have that covered. Actually the whole design looks great!
> "She" is probably still too young to determine sex. BTW you could always get "her" a homer or other breed of pigeon mate when you determine the sex later on...........maybe a different color IF you want to have a mix of colors. Be careful letting "her" out alone.......a lone pigeon is attractive to hawks and other predators.


Hi Woodnative,

Thanks for answering my question #2 about wood floors & poop and thanks for your encouraging words. 

My wife's pigeon is about 8 weeks old now. It would be nice to buy a mate so he/she won't be lonely. I'll ask about how to determine the sex in the general discussions forum. (EDIT: Just checked youtube so no need to ask in the general discussions forum.)

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

lynn g said:


> Be careful of the "no predator" view. If you have birds, "they will come". Everything eats pigeon. I am amazed at the number of ways that pigeons can become dinner for some varmit. I use a Havahart trap on the outside of the loft and catch something about every two weeks. I recently caught an animal that i could not identify but was told it was a civit cat. Some folks called it a pole cat. I thought a pole cat and a skunk were the same thing but obviously not. Racoons are in most cities and they love to have pigeons over for dinner. The best advice i can give you is control the birds time outside and monitor the hawk migrations in your area. At certian times of the year at my home it is a death sentence to loft fly the birds because of hawks. Even saying all of this, i encourage you to keep the birds. Pigeons are my valium and they are a hoot to fool with.


Hi Lynn,

We live in Hawaii so there are no hawks, racoons, pole cats, snakes or other predators that can climb, other than cats, rats and mongooses. (We don't have any mongooses at all in our suburban area. They are mostly in bushy areas and are not that common even then.) We're lucky not having a lot of predators but the cost of living here is high.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Silver Wings

Skyglider said:


> We don't have any other predators where we live in a suburban neighborhood other than cats and rats. No snakes at all here. Will close the trap door at night to keep the rats out.
> 
> Would you recommend any design changes?
> 
> Thanks,
> Skyglider


Hi Skyglider,

I like having windows in my loft box, if the weather is bad, at least they can see out and see some light. 

As far as "No other predators" I am going to caution you. I have lived many places across the country, there really isn't such a place IMHO. You just tend to not to notice them. 

I know my neighbors (who are a couple miles off) have pigeons in their barns - feral park pigeons... I tend to enjoy my view out here, so I am always looking about. I notice the pigeons a few times a year here and there - never landing, just flying by. 

Now that I have my own pigeons in the backyard guess what?? I see them more and more as they are scoping out easier food sources. They come in on a slow glide and hang out on the roof of my aviary. NEVER had they done that prior. I have also noticed the raptors have come in and hung around a little more. So I caution you, keep your eyes up and open. You keep an open mind and eyes and you'll be just fine. 

Just wanted to help by adding this:
Birds in Hawaii --
You have Gulls, Crows, Osprey, owls, jays, magpie, and ravens among other things.... Beware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_of_Hawaii


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## Skyglider

Silver Wings said:


> Hi Skyglider,
> 
> I like having windows in my loft box, if the weather is bad, at least they can see out and see some light.
> 
> As far as "No other predators" I am going to caution you. I have lived many places across the country, there really isn't such a place IMHO. You just tend to not to notice them.
> 
> I know my neighbors (who are a couple miles off) have pigeons in their barns - feral park pigeons... I tend to enjoy my view out here, so I am always looking about. I notice the pigeons a few times a year here and there - never landing, just flying by.
> 
> Now that I have my own pigeons in the backyard guess what?? I see them more and more as they are scoping out easier food sources. They come in on a slow glide and hang out on the roof of my aviary. NEVER had they done that prior. I have also noticed the raptors have come in and hung around a little more. So I caution you, keep your eyes up and open. You keep an open mind and eyes and you'll be just fine.
> 
> Just wanted to help by adding this:
> Birds in Hawaii --
> You have Gulls, Crows, Osprey, owls, jays, magpie, and ravens among other things.... Beware.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_of_Hawaii


Hi Silver,

Thanks for helping out with my question #3 about windows. I'll go ahead and make some windows. After thinking about it, the windows will not only be good to let light into the enclosure for the pigeons and let them see out but will also be good to let us see the inside of the loft without having to open the door.

I read one post (don't remember where) that plexiglass windows will be covered with pigeon dust withing a few days. If you have plexiglass windows have you found that they are hard to see through after a while? Any recommendation for size of windows for my small loft?

I'll keep an eye out for predators. Thanks,
Skyglider


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## lynn g

No snakes? I am moving to your neighborhood. Theres nothing like checking the nestboxes and finding a rattlesnake. I totally destroyed my loft tryin to get out. The furry varmits i can deal with. The slithery kind sort of freak me out. Send me a mongoose


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## Skyglider

lynn g said:


> No snakes? I am moving to your neighborhood. Theres nothing like checking the nestboxes and finding a rattlesnake. I totally destroyed my loft tryin to get out. The furry varmits i can deal with. The slithery kind sort of freak me out. Send me a mongoose


Well to be technically correct, there is a Hawaiian snake that looks like an earthworm and about the same size. Haven't seen one in 30 years though. They might still live in non inhabited areas.










Skyglider  
.


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## Skyglider

Still making design decisions before I start drawing the plans for our small loft.

REACHING INTO THE LOFT:
By holding a tape rule extended to 4 feet in front of me, I think a depth of 4 feet is too great to reach the back of the loft. So I'm thinking about making our loft 3 feet deep.

ROOF:
I found a piece of 3/4 inch plywood that I can use for the roof of our loft. The piece is 4' x 3'-5". This should work out giving about 4 inches of overhang at the front of the loft where the front air vent (right below the roof) will be.

NEST BOXES:
There will be two rows that span the full width of the back. Divided in half gives 4 nest boxes. Each box will be 21" wide x 12" deep x 12" high and placed so the "floor" of the top boxes is about 16" below the roof. This means that the floor of the top row of boxes will be about 2.5 feet above the floor.

QUESTION: If the loft is 3 feet deep and the nest boxes are 1 foot deep, that leaves only 2 feet of space for the pigeons to fly up to the top nest boxes. Will the pigeons be able to fly up 2.5 feet from the floor of the loft to the floor of the top row of nest boxes within the 2 feet of space between the nest boxes and the front wall?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## doveman2

u did real good


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## Skyglider

doveman2 said:


> u did real good


So 2 feet between the front of the nest boxes and the front wall is enough space for the pigeons to fly up 2.5 feet to the upper nest boxes?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

Got an idea regarding the size of mesh for the hardware cloth for my small loft. I'm going to use both 1/4 and 1/2 inch hardware cloth.

LOFT MAIN ENCLOSURE:
I'm going to use 1/4 inch cloth for the lower floor, the top air vent and on any windows I include.

WIRE CAGE ATTACHED TO THE LOFT:
I'll use 1/4 inch cloth for the floor of the wire cage to make it easier for the pigeons to walk on. I'll use 1/2 inch cloth for the sides and top which will make it nicer for the pigeons to look out and for us to look in. We never see any mice during the day so I doubt that they will try to get into the loft via the 1/2 inch cloth.

At night (when the mice come out), all doors to the main enclosure will be closed so the mice will not be able to get into the main enclosure via the 1/4 inch cloth (hopefully). Will see how this works.

Am drawing the loft in SketchUp now. Will post the images when I'm done.

Skyglider


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## Silver Wings

Looking forward to your drawing - and photos as it goes together.


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## Skyglider

Question about perches at the upper air vent.

To recap, my small loft will have an air vent right below the roof that spans the width of the front wall. (Call it the top air vent.) I decided not to put air vents at the top of the side walls because in SketchUp, it looks like it would be too drafty on windy days.

I'm planning to make the air vent 4-1/2 inches high. I'm thinking about putting perches on the inside of the front wall so that the pigeons can look out of the top air vent when on those perches.

How much clearance between the top of a perch and the roof would you recommend that will still allow the pigeons to see out? Will the pigeons be able to fly up to those perches without hitting the roof? (There is 45 inches from the floor to the roof.)

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Jay3

Thought you were putting in windows for the birds to see out. They need windows for light, as they can't be kept in the dark. They won't even eat or drink in the dark. If the vents are close to the roof, then it would probably be too hard for them to land on the perches. You need to add a window to the loft.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> Thought you were putting in windows for the birds to see out. They need windows for light, as they can't be kept in the dark. They won't even eat or drink in the dark. If the vents are close to the roof, then it would probably be too hard for them to land on the perches. You need to add a window to the loft.


Hi Jay3,

When I showed my wife my SketchUp drawing she said that she wants the entire front of the loft to be open so she can see inside. So what I've decided to do is to make the front door out of a wooden frame and 1/4 inch hardware cloth. I'm going to make a removeable 1/4 inch plywood panel that can fit in the frame to close the loft on cold or windy days. I'll attach the panel on the outside of the loft (side opposite of the wire cage) when not in use. I'll use twist sticks on screws to secure the panel so it's not blown away by the wind.

I was going to put two perches on both sides of the front door which the pigeons could use. (For when the door panel is in place.) But I'll probably not do that now since, as you say, it would too close to the roof and hard for the pigeons to land on them.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Jay3

Great idea, except that when you need to close it up, would they not be in the dark? Plexiglass would be a better alternative to the plywood. Even heavy clear plastic on a frame.


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## Jay3

Skyglider said:


> Hi Silver,
> 
> Thanks for helping out with my question #3 about windows. I'll go ahead and make some windows. After thinking about it, the windows will not only be good to let light into the enclosure for the pigeons and let them see out but will also be good to let us see the inside of the loft without having to open the door.
> 
> I read one post (don't remember where) that plexiglass windows will be covered with pigeon dust withing a few days. If you have plexiglass windows have you found that they are hard to see through after a while? Any recommendation for size of windows for my small loft?
> 
> I'll keep an eye out for predators. Thanks,
> Skyglider




I have lots of large windows in my loft, and eventually they do get dusty. You wash them. Not hard.


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## TimJ

Last summer I built something very close to what you pictured.










I'd leave it 4 feet across so it makes the most use out of the space and materials. I put the aviary off the tallest side and it has doors on both sides to make for easier cleaning and catching if need be. Yeah it is just a touch too wide for reaching but the little extra space is nice.

I fly 4 males out of it now and they seem happy in it. 2 pairs would be about max in there if you are going to let them hatch young. It will fill up fast.

Tim


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## lg5555

*pigeons*

Here's an idea. Just get one more pigeon for a mate. One of a different color that will give you pretty colored babies such as one splashed with white. Then you keep two or four of your favorites. when the pigeons breed you replace all eggs with fake eggs. This will keep the population down and you will have a small group of pigeons to enjoy.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> Great idea, except that when you need to close it up, would they not be in the dark? Plexiglass would be a better alternative to the plywood. Even heavy clear plastic on a frame.





Jay3 said:


> I have lots of large windows in my loft, and eventually they do get dusty. You wash them. Not hard.


Hi Jay3,

I have a piece of light smoke tinted plexiglass that I've saved for years thinking that someday I would use it. Guess that day has finally come.  It is 16-1/4 x 23-1/4 inches x 1/8 inch thick. I'll figure out how to use it in my design.

Thanks for the encouragement,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

TimJ said:


> Last summer I built something very close to what you pictured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd leave it 4 feet across so it makes the most use out of the space and materials. I put the aviary off the tallest side and it has doors on both sides to make for easier cleaning and catching if need be. Yeah it is just a touch too wide for reaching but the little extra space is nice.
> 
> I fly 4 males out of it now and they seem happy in it. 2 pairs would be about max in there if you are going to let them hatch young. It will fill up fast.
> 
> Tim


Hi Tim,

Whoa..! The design of the loft I'm designing now is extremely close to your design. The air vent under the high side of the roof is similar except that my air vent will be 4-1/2 inches high. Even the the way your attached wire cage is constructed is similar except that the door to my wire cage will just be a wood frame with 1/2 inch hardware cloth on it.

I'm kinda stuck with the 3 feet depth now since I found a 3/4 inch piece of plywood for the roof that's 4' x 3'-5". So the floor of my loft will be about 42 inches wide (3" roof overhang on both sides) x 36 inches deep (4" roof overhang at the front). I think the 3 feet depth will make it easier for my wife to clean the nest boxes. (Note that I said "my wife" will clean the nest boxes  ).

Regarding the roof of your loft. I don't see any roofing paper on it but it's hard to tell from the picture. 

1. How are you water proofing your roof?
2. What are the dimensions of your wire cage?
3. It looks like you're using 1/4 inch hardware cloth on your cage. Is that right?
4. With no windows, is your loft too dark?

Very nice job on your loft, by the way,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

lg5555 said:


> Here's an idea. Just get one more pigeon for a mate. One of a different color that will give you pretty colored babies such as one splashed with white. Then you keep two or four of your favorites. when the pigeons breed you replace all eggs with fake eggs. This will keep the population down and you will have a small group of pigeons to enjoy.


Hi lg5555,

Funny you should mention getting one more pigeon for a mate. My wife has let her pigeon out during daylight hours for the past 2 weeks. It just hangs around our back yard and likes to roost on some boxes on a shelf under our home's roof eave. Her pigeon has flown away 4 times total now and 3 times it came back by the evening and one time it stayed out overnight and came back in the morning.

Anyway, her pigeon has attracted another pigeon. That pigeon doesn't have a band and it comes alone and hangs out on the roof our house most of the day for the past 6 days or so. It flys down to eat when we throw some pigeon feed on the grass. I assume it's a feral pigeon since it's alone. My wife's pigeon seems to be afraid of that pigeon and doesn't let it come near him/her.

How does one determine if the other pigeon is owned by someone or is a feral pigeon? As I said it doesn't have a band on it's leg. I've read that feral pigeons can have a disease that domestic pigeons can get. 

Skyglider


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## Jay3

Feral pigeons don't have a disease that domestics can get. A pigeon is a pigeon. The thing is that any pigeon, be it feral or domestic could be carrying something that your bird could pick up. When you bring in another bird, even from another pigeon owner, he/she should be quarantined for a month first, just to watch and make sure that it is healthy before putting it with your bird. But in letting your bird out to fly, you are taking a chance that they are going to be with other birds, whether healthy or not. Ferals aren't really any more of a threat than pigeons from a loft, where sickness could be. Not all owned pigeons are banded, so kind of hard to tell. Does it look like a feral pigeon from your area?


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> Feral pigeons don't have a disease that domestics can get. A pigeon is a pigeon.


That's a relief.



> The thing is that any pigeon, be it feral or domestic could be carrying something that your bird could pick up. When you bring in another bird, even from another pigeon owner, he/she should be quarantined for a month first, just to watch and make sure that it is healthy before putting it with your bird. But in letting your bird out to fly, you are taking a chance that they are going to be with other birds, whether healthy or not. Ferals aren't really any more of a threat than pigeons from a loft, where sickness could be. Not all owned pigeons are banded, so kind of hard to tell. Does it look like a feral pigeon from your area?


My wife found her pigeon on the ground as a week old squab in a park about 2 miles from our house after some very strong winds. So her pigeon is actually a feral pigeon that she raised from infancy. There are a lot of feral pigeons in that park some of which do look like our visiting pigeon. The park pigeons are fairly tame since people feed them but are skittish. Similar behavior from our visiting pigeon.

After I build our loft, if that pigeon goes in it, I'll catch it, attach a paper label to one of its legs with our phone number and let it go. If someone calls us, then we'll know that it's someone else's pet. Any other ideas on how to determine if it's someone else's pet are welcome.

Skyglider


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## Jay3

If the bird isn't banded, than I wouldn't worry about it being someone elses pet. If he/she looks like a feral, than it probably is. I wouldn't catch him though. If he is living a free life, then it should be his choice to stay with you or not. If they get together and choose to stay there, then fine. Your bird could also choose to leave with a new mate. It would be nice if they decide to stay there.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> If the bird isn't banded, than I wouldn't worry about it being someone elses pet. If he/she looks like a feral, than it probably is. I wouldn't catch him though. If he is living a free life, then it should be his choice to stay with you or not. If they get together and choose to stay there, then fine. Your bird could also choose to leave with a new mate. It would be nice if they decide to stay there.


Hi Jay3,

Sounds fair. We wouldn't keep the bird captive. We would let it out every day when we let my wife's bird out. It will be up to the feral whether he/she wants to sleep in our loft every night or not. The tricky part will be how to keep them separate for a month to insure the feral doesn't have any disease.

Will cross that bridge when we come to it. Just hope my wife's pigeon stays with us and I don't build our loft for nothing... .

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## TimJ

The roof just has 4 or 5 coats of very tough paint on it for now. I do have some tin that I might use for the roof but I think the paint will work. It was porch floor paint or something like that. 

The aviary is roughly 36x36x30. They spend a lot of the day out in there. Even when it was below zero this winter they sat out there a lot. It is partially covered so that they can be out there when it rains but stay dry. They like getting wet in the rain sometimes so they can choose where they sit. The picture doesn't show it but I put several 2x2s sticking out 8 or 10 inches for them to sit on half way up the side posts.

I think it is 1/2 inch hardware cloth. I thought about using 1/2 x 1 inch welded wire on it. That stuff is a lot tougher. Not all dropping fall through but most do.

The aviary door is always open and lets in a fair amount of light. I also painted the inside white. That helps brighten it up a lot.

Good luck, hope your wife agrees to all the cleaning.  It really isn't that bad if you build it to make it easy to clean. Sounds like you are going to do that.

Tim


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## Skyglider

TimJ said:


> The roof just has 4 or 5 coats of very tough paint on it for now. I do have some tin that I might use for the roof but I think the paint will work. It was porch floor paint or something like that.
> 
> The aviary is roughly 36x36x30. They spend a lot of the day out in there. Even when it was below zero this winter they sat out there a lot. It is partially covered so that they can be out there when it rains but stay dry. They like getting wet in the rain sometimes so they can choose where they sit. The picture doesn't show it but I put several 2x2s sticking out 8 or 10 inches for them to sit on half way up the side posts.
> 
> I think it is 1/2 inch hardware cloth. I thought about using 1/2 x 1 inch welded wire on it. That stuff is a lot tougher. Not all dropping fall through but most do.
> 
> The aviary door is always open and lets in a fair amount of light. I also painted the inside white. That helps brighten it up a lot.
> 
> Good luck, hope your wife agrees to all the cleaning.  It really isn't that bad if you build it to make it easy to clean. Sounds like you are going to do that.
> 
> Tim


Hi Tim,

Thanks for answering my questions. Really helpful since I'm designing a loft very similar to yours.

Another question. What's the dimensions of the door to your loft? If you were to build your loft again, would you make it bigger or the same size?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## TimJ

The door is 18x30. It works ok for me. I'm medium build 5' 9", if you are larger or smaller you might want it a little wider or narrower. It's nice to have yourself fill it up so birds don't try to fly out by you. I have had a couple do that but I wasn't worried about them as they just came back in the trap.

One of the few things I'd change on it does have something to do with the door. I put it up just a little too high. I will be cutting down the legs once the weather warms up. It will make me fill up the door better and make it easier to reach all of it too clean.

Tim


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## Skyglider

TimJ said:


> The door is 18x30. It works ok for me. I'm medium build 5' 9", if you are larger or smaller you might want it a little wider or narrower. It's nice to have yourself fill it up so birds don't try to fly out by you. I have had a couple do that but I wasn't worried about them as they just came back in the trap.
> 
> One of the few things I'd change on it does have something to do with the door. I put it up just a little too high. I will be cutting down the legs once the weather warms up. It will make me fill up the door better and make it easier to reach all of it too clean.
> 
> Tim


Hi Tim,

Thanks much for your door dimensions and suggestions. I'm going to re-visit my door size and height from the ground.

Skyglider


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## Skyglider

Designing the perches now. Because my loft will be small, space for my perches will be at a premium. Currently my design includes 4 inverted "V" perches with 2 perches in the top row and 2 perches in the bottom row. The top perches will be 12 inches below the roof with the center of the leftmost perch 7 inches from the left wall. The center of the top right perch will be 14 inches to the right of the top left perch.

Will the pigeon(s) will be able to fly up 32 inches to the top left perch with only 12 inches top clearance and 7 inches left clearance?

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Looking at some pictures of perches via Google, I found these:




























When the pigeons fly up to the top left perch in the pictures, will their left wing get damaged? 

In the 3rd picture there looks to be only about 8 or 9 inches of clearance from the top of the upper perches to the roof. Guess the pigeons were able to fly up to them OK.

Comments or suggestions?
Skyglider


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## Jay3

That should give them enough clearance to land. Hope you are going to add a piece of wood on the top of the V perches for them to stand on. A sharp V is not comfortable for their feet, and not a normal way for them to stand or perch for long periods.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> That should give them enough clearance to land. Hope you are going to add a piece of wood on the top of the V perches for them to stand on. A sharp V is not comfortable for their feet, and not a normal way for them to stand or perch for long periods.


Hi Jay3,

Thanks for always being so helpful! My inverted V perches will have a 4 x 3-1/2 wide flat top for the pigeons to sit comfortably on. The V's will extend out on both sides for a total of 12" of poop catching.

With your confirmation, now I can go ahead and add the perches to my SketchUp model. Not the end of the world if I need to relocate the perches since that will be fairly easy to do if necessary.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Jay3

Those perches will be good. I have done that with combining the flat perch with the V perch and it works out well. And in the cold weather the birds can lay down over their feet to keep them warm. They do like to lay on the perches anyway. Sounds great. My perches come out 6 or 7 inches and they are very comfy on them. But you don't need to go that long.


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## red2x

Sky glider, 
Just happened upon this post. The loft in the first is my loft! Where did you find that photo?
It was a great little loft. I've since moved to a bigger loft but it worked perfectly for me for years. 
I designed and built it myself so if you have any specific questions just ask. 
Red


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## Skyglider

red2x said:


> Sky glider,
> Just happened upon this post. The loft in the first is my loft! Where did you find that photo?
> It was a great little loft. I've since moved to a bigger loft but it worked perfectly for me for years.


Hi red2x,

I just went to Google, clicked "images" and typed "Pigeon perches". Scroll about half way down and the first picture I posted (your loft) is displayed.



> I designed and built it myself so if you have any specific questions just ask.
> Red


Could you post the following dimensions?

1. Distance from the top perches to the roof?

2. Distance from the left wall to the left-most perches?

3. Distance between perches?

Thanks much,
Skyglider


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## red2x

I have used box style and T style. I've found theT style to be much cleaner and my cock birds maybe fight a bit less. I use a 1x4 vertically roughly 2' shorter than your loft. On that screw in 1x4's at 90 degrees that are 5.5" long (I chamfer the two outside corners). Space those out so there is roughly 10" +- vertically between. Then screw the whole works to the wall. 
You can put the top perch within about 10" of the roof. If you have more room, you can lower it. You can have them maybe 6-8" from a side wall and try to keep them 10" or so apart. Birds will like to jump back and forth between them and fight. Staggering them vertically seems to help that a bit. 
In that little loft pictured on the first post, I had six total nest boxes across the back and 4 sets of 3 perches in the remainder of the loft. That might give you an idea of what you can fit in yours. It was tight but worked great for a breeder loft for me. I think I have some photos on my computer that I could post but that will be a few days before I get to it.


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## Skyglider

red2x said:


> I have used box style and T style. I've found theT style to be much cleaner and my cock birds maybe fight a bit less. I use a 1x4 vertically roughly 2' shorter than your loft. On that screw in 1x4's at 90 degrees that are 5.5" long (I chamfer the two outside corners). Space those out so there is roughly 10" +- vertically between. Then screw the whole works to the wall.
> You can put the top perch within about 10" of the roof. If you have more room, you can lower it. You can have them maybe 6-8" from a side wall and try to keep them 10" or so apart. Birds will like to jump back and forth between them and fight. Staggering them vertically seems to help that a bit.
> In that little loft pictured on the first post, I had six total nest boxes across the back and 4 sets of 3 perches in the remainder of the loft. That might give you an idea of what you can fit in yours. It was tight but worked great for a breeder loft for me. I think I have some photos on my computer that I could post but that will be a few days before I get to it.


Hi red2x,

Your info really helps confirm my perch layouts. Better to get the info for a proper perch layout "before" construction rather than having to make revisions later.

I think I'm going with 4 nest boxes for now since my loft will be small.

Have a great week,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

*First SketchUp picture of my loft*

Here's a first SketchUp picture of my small loft design. I have not yet drawn the attached wire cage. 

(My first attempt to upload the picture to pigeon-talk worked while previewing and viewing after submitting but failed later. Used the "Attach files" option while composing my post. Here's my second attempt after creating an album on pigeon-talk, uploading the picture and using the URL to it instead. Hope it works permanently now.)










OVERVIEW:
The loft is 4' wide, 3' deep and 6'-3" high at the front. As previously mentioned, I decided on a 3' depth to be able to reach all parts of the loft from the front door (Plus I found a 3/4" piece of plywood for the roof that is 4' x 3'-5") That horizontal 2x2 below the front of the roof is actually running across the front, not along the right side. It serves as the lower frame for the upper vent and to hold the upper front wall.

FLOOR:
The floor will be made of two 1/4" plywood pieces that slide in side channels. I originally planned to just have the plywood rest in rabbets in the side frames (easier) but decided to use channels since 1/4" exterior treated plywood that I've seen so far are fairly warped. The channels also keep the floors from tilting if they are partially pulled out. I might add center brace frames to support the center of the plywood floors if necessary. Our pigeons will be able to walk on wooden floors instead of hardware cloth. There will be 1/4" mesh hardware cloth under the floor frames to keep pests out and birds in when the floors are removed for cleaning. ---- The floor pieces don't extend to the back of the loft. There is 6" of space for air to flow upward into the loft. Each floor piece can be partially slid out to adjust ventilation or they can be removed completely if desired.

ROOF:
At the top front, there is a 4-1/2" high space under the roof where 1/4" hardware cloth will be installed for the upper air vent. I decided not to have the roof overhang on the sides to use the full 4' for the width to maximize the interior space for the birds. I will install 1x2 strips on the top of the sides and back. The front edge of the roof will have a 1x4 going across to act as a stiffener for the roof and also to act as a rain guard for the front air vent. Metal flashing will be run around the perimeter of the roof over the 1x2's and front 1x4, and mineral roll roofing paper will be installed on the roof.

NEST BOXES:
There are 4 nest boxes that are 18" wide x 12" high x 12" deep. I originally planned to have the nest boxes on the back wall but since the loft is only 3' deep, that only left 2' of space to the front wall. So I decided to install the nest boxes on the right side wall. Since the loft is 4' wide, that gives 3 ' of space from the nest boxes to the left wall.

I will install horizontal and vertical cleats on the right wall to support the nest boxes. The shelves will rest on the horizontal cleats and the vertical dividers will be inserted between the vertical cleats. Therefore the nest boxes will be completely removable.

Only the bottom horizontal shelf will have a 1x2 (or 1x3) glued and nailed to the front edge to act as a front shelf support for both shelves. I want to leave the top surfaces of the shelves flat for easy scraping or so I can make removable sub floors for each nest box that will have 1x2's projecting upwards on the front edges to contain nesting material. Should I use 1x3's instead?

PERCHES:
There will be 4 inverted "V: perches. The top surface of each perch will be 4" wide by 3-1/2" deep. There will be vertical 1x2's on the back of each perch which will space each perch an additional 3/4" from the wall. So the pigeons will actually have a 4" wide by 4-1/4" deep perch to rest on.

Each perch will be removable. The little gizmo below the left bottom perch is a "perch holder" and is made of 7/8" spacers with a 1/4" plywood face. It is just randomly placed for now just to get the design in SketchUp. Each perch holder will be actually located where the perches are shown in the picture. The vertical 1x2's for each perch will slide down into the "perch holders".

There is 12" of space from the "bottom" of the upper inverted V's to the top of the lower perches. That puts the top of the lower perches about 16" above the floor. I thinking of raising the lower perches 2" although that will only leave 10" of vertical space between perches instead.

NOT SHOWN:
There will be a door on the front wall that will be made of a frame with 1/4" hardware cloth on it. I have a piece of smoked plexiglass that can be inserted in the door to keep drafts out when necessary but still allow light into the loft.

There will be a cat proof drop trap on the left wall. The landing pad/door will only be big enough to hold one pigeon to prevent two pigeons from landing simultaneously and tilting the landing pad/door unnecessarily. (It would be bad to have two outside pigeons tilt an inside pigeon up against the upper roof of the cat proof trap.)

The wire cage will be attached to the outside of the left wall, right below the cat proof drop trap. The top of the wire cage will act as a large landing area and then the pigeons can hop/fly up to the small landing pad/door of the trap.

DESIGN DECISIONS:
I decided to make the nest boxes and the perches removable to have easier yearly cleaning and later repainting of the inside of the loft. The cat proof drop trap will also be removable with 4 screws if necessary. The removable nest boxes will also allow moving them to the left wall with the wire cage on the right wall if the loft is moved in the future.

To re-ask the question, should I use 1x3's instead of 1x2's as nest box lower fronts to hold nesting materials in? Or is it not necessary to have any lower front pieces at all?

Skyglider


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## Skyglider

I've been researching painting the inside of a loft. On a different website some said that it's best NOT to paint the inside to allow the wood to breathe. Is this the consensus here?

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Jay3

Wish I had painted mine. Would be lots easier to clean near the perches where it can get soiled. I painted the nest boxes only. Wouldn't paint perches, as you scrape them anyway. But painting the walls looks nice and can be washed a whole lot easier. Some paint it a color to blend in with any droppings so it looks better. If I had it to do over, I would paint the walls. Can't do that now with the birds in there.
Why does the wood have to breath?


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## Silver Wings

Very new to the housing side of things, but all the lofts or kit boxes I have seen are never painted inside for flooring etc. Some times walls and dividers or doors are painted. But roosting areas and perches aren't. 

I would think this would be that their nails would wear it some, but all the scraping for cleaning would be even harsher on the paint. 

I also think (someone straighten me up -- and get my flying right  If I am wrong here), that paint would keep your loft 'damper' as it would take poop longer to dry, and thus give better chances for viruses to transmit as well. Cleaning up would therefore also be harder as you are spreading wet poop compared to scraping dried poop. 

Also, everyone I know, washes down the loft of the 'bloom' and such about once a year up here (more often in the warm south).

This being said, we do paint the outside of the loft/kit box to protect it from weather.

It will be interesting to see what other comments you get.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wood does have to breath. When I built my first loft in the basement, I thought I would paint all 4 sides of the wood as I put it together hopping it would last longer, just the opposite happened. I replaced most of the aviary already after 4 years. The shed I am working on now was built almost 30 years ago without any paint or treated wood except the floor joists, didn't start to go bad till over 20 years.


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## Silver Wings

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Wood does have to breath. When I built my first loft in the basement, I thought I would paint all 4 sides of the wood as I put it together hopping it would last longer, just the opposite happened. I replaced most of the aviary already after 4 years. The shed I am working on now was built almost 30 years ago without any paint or treated wood except the floor joists, didn't start to go bad till over 20 years.


Shady - for clarification, you are only painting the outside right?? I seem to recall some VERY nice pics and your lofts were painted or had siding on the outside.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> Wish I had painted mine. Would be lots easier to clean near the perches where it can get soiled. I painted the nest boxes only. Wouldn't paint perches, as you scrape them anyway. But painting the walls looks nice and can be washed a whole lot easier. Some paint it a color to blend in with any droppings so it looks better. If I had it to do over, I would paint the walls. Can't do that now with the birds in there.


Hi Jay3,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I have the same line of thought as you in that it would be easier to wash the walls.



> Why does the wood have to breath?


Something to do with condensation forming on painted walls causing dampness in the loft as I recall. Allowing the wood to breathe supposedly negates that.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Skyglider

Silver Wings said:


> Very new to the housing side of things, but all the lofts or kit boxes I have seen are never painted inside for flooring etc. Some times walls and dividers or doors are painted. But roosting areas and perches aren't.
> 
> I would think this would be that their nails would wear it some, but all the scraping for cleaning would be even harsher on the paint.
> 
> I also think (someone straighten me up -- and get my flying right  If I am wrong here), that paint would keep your loft 'damper' as it would take poop longer to dry, and thus give better chances for viruses to transmit as well. Cleaning up would therefore also be harder as you are spreading wet poop compared to scraping dried poop.


Interesting concept - painting the walls but not the floors or perches. Originally I was thinking just the opposite that painting the floors and perches would make them easier to scrape poop off. Gotta re-think the painting the inside of the loft.



> Also, everyone I know, washes down the loft of the 'bloom' and such about once a year up here (more often in the warm south).


I'm not familiar with washing down the loft of bloom. Is that releasing all of the pigeons and then washing the inside of the loft with a water hose?



> This being said, we do paint the outside of the loft/kit box to protect it from weather.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what other comments you get.


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## Skyglider

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Wood does have to breath. When I built my first loft in the basement, I thought I would paint all 4 sides of the wood as I put it together hopping it would last longer, just the opposite happened. I replaced most of the aviary already after 4 years. The shed I am working on now was built almost 30 years ago without any paint or treated wood except the floor joists, didn't start to go bad till over 20 years.


I wonder if your 4 years problem was caused by painting with oil based paint? I believe oil based paint does not breathe but that latex based paint does.

Skyglider


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## Jay3

Washing down the loft of bloom, is just wiping it down periodically. I go in with a pan of water and a sponge or cloth and wipe everything down, as it does get dusty. I do it more often than once a year, and I wash the windows, as I have large windows in the loft. You don't have to put the birds out, and you would never hose it down. You need the loft kept dry. But wiping down the walls is lots easier when they are painted, rather than rough wood. 

And the floors and perches wouldn't be painted, as you scrape them, and would just scrape the paint off. 

Your idea of the oil based paint not breathing is a good one. It's true. It doesn't breath, and water base paint does. 

With good air circulation, I don't know why condensation would form on the walls.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> Washing down the loft of bloom, is just wiping it down periodically. I go in with a pan of water and a sponge or cloth and wipe everything down, as it does get dusty. I do it more often than once a year, and I wash the windows, as I have large windows in the loft. You don't have to put the birds out, and you would never hose it down. You need the loft kept dry. But wiping down the walls is lots easier when they are painted, rather than rough wood.
> 
> And the floors and perches wouldn't be painted, as you scrape them, and would just scrape the paint off.
> 
> Your idea of the oil based paint not breathing is a good one. It's true. It doesn't breath, and water base paint does.
> 
> With good air circulation, I don't know why condensation would form on the walls.


Thanks for explaining how your bloom cleaning process. Right now, per your experiences, I'm inclined to paint all vertical surfaces inside of the loft with latex paint for easier cleaning but am still open to suggestions.

Thanks,
Skyglider


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## Jay3

What kind of wood is the inside going to be?


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> What kind of wood is the inside going to be?


Treated lumber and treated plywood. I don't buy OSB.


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## Jay3

I wouldn't use pressure treated plywood in my loft. It has chemicals not good for pigeons.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> I wouldn't use pressure treated plywood in my loft. It has chemicals not good for pigeons.


Apparently Shadybug and Chayi use pressure treated for everything, per this April 2013 thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f38/to-pt-or-not-to-pt-that-is-the-question-68202.html


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## Jay3

Okay. Well I wouldn't. The pressure treated today is not as toxic as the pressure treated from a few years back, but I wouldn't. That's me. Be sure to use the right screws and fasteners when you build, as the high copper amount in it seems to cause most regular fasteners to corrode. Here's an article on it. Just so you are aware.

http://woodworking.about.com/od/safetyfirst/p/SafeACQLumber.htm


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> Okay. Well I wouldn't. The pressure treated today is not as toxic as the pressure treated from a few years back, but I wouldn't. That's me. Be sure to use the right screws and fasteners when you build, as the high copper amount in it seems to cause most regular fasteners to corrode. Here's an article on it. Just so you are aware.
> 
> http://woodworking.about.com/od/safetyfirst/p/SafeACQLumber.htm


Shows you have a deep respect for your birds. I'm somewhat forced to use treated lumber because of our tropical climate which is a heaven for mildew, fungus, termites and other wood boring insects. Maybe painting the inside of the loft with latex paint will help protect our birds.

I will use ACQ approved screws and galvanized hinges for our loft.

Thanks for helping out,
Skyglider


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## Jay3

Where are you located?


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## Shadybug Lofts

Silver Wings said:


> Shady - for clarification, you are only painting the outside right?? I seem to recall some VERY nice pics and your lofts were painted or had siding on the outside.


My lofts are all wood. I paint inside and out. What I was saying was that when I built my first loft I painted all four sides of each piece of wood 2 coats before I put it on the loft. Now I just put it all together and paint the out side That way the wood has unpainted areas that will let it breath.


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## Silver Wings

Thanks Shady, you put together GREAT looking lofts. Always nice to hear from someone with well done projects who's been at this awhile. Appreciate learning from your experiences.


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## Skyglider

Jay3 said:


> Where are you located?


We live in Hawaii.


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## red2x

Here are some photos of the loft I was talking about.
You have a good plan to not have next boxes on the ground. I found that to be a problem with my design. Youngsters can go in the wrong nest and get beat up pretty good.
You might also think about a mesh floor with a slide out tray below. It made clean up a breeze. I added it to the aviary too.
The roof on mine are translucent panels. Loft is really bright.
Just some ideas.


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## Skyglider

red2x said:


> Here are some photos of the loft I was talking about.
> You have a good plan to not have next boxes on the ground. I found that to be a problem with my design. Youngsters can go in the wrong nest and get beat up pretty good.
> You might also think about a mesh floor with a slide out tray below. It made clean up a breeze. I added it to the aviary too.
> The roof on mine are translucent panels. Loft is really bright.
> Just some ideas.


That's a really nicely designed and built small loft. Love how you went the extra mile to make the doweled nest box fronts and doorway perches. And using translucent roof panels to brighten up the inside is a really good idea also.

_The small opening to the aviary seems to be screened off. How did your birds go into the aviary? EDIT: See now that the screen is actually the hardware cloth of the aviary floor. So scratch these questions._

Did you have problems with rain going into the loft through that opening?

Thanks for sharing your pics,
Skyzoomer


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