# Windy, possible head injury.



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi ,

I was posting under "dazed pigeon" but thought a new thread was in line. My pigeon, Windy, has dilated pupils and very little to no response to a flashlight. Any thoughts from members would be appreciated as I am out of my depth on this one.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,


Poison can do this also...

What had your Bird been doing prior to you noticing this, or noticing he was not feeling well...?

Had he been out flying?

Are there any other things you notice about him you could mention?

Poops looking allright, or...?

Odd postures or stances or brething-things?

Is he eating? drinking? On his own?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

*Thank-you Phil*

Thanks so much for getting back to me Phil. 

I am really worried. There are more details at the end of the thread "dazed pigeon" but the basics are that this bird seems to be in good overall condition. Full, dense feathering and fat. I got her after an alert from Terri about a dazed bird found in Saskatoon. She is eating well and not showing any serious signs of stress but is pretty much stationary and has been that way since I got her yesterday morning. 

She is on a heating pad and is weak. I too am worried about poisoning but the lady, Karen who gave her to me suggested she may have been struck by a stone thrown by the local children. If it is poisoning what should I be doing tonight to help this bird until I can get her to a vet. Any advice is much appreciated.

Cameron


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hello! I had a pigeon earlier that my vet wanted to see if there were some head trama going on and she held the pigeon over off to the side of the exam table and let the feet dangle straight, she wanted to see if the pigeon would pull it's feet up to step up onto the table, a natural response, if it didn't then she said that there are neurlogical things going on that would have to look further into. Emergency Vets on Animal Planet do the same things (Dr. Fitzgerald) my hero, smart man, try that and see what the results are. try the rehydration water as well that stuff does wonders. Good Luck let us know.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Thank you for taking this second pigeon into your home. Boy, when it rains it pours and perhaps you're gonna be the next rehabber on the list

Do try to get the pigeon to a vet or that rehabber person you mentioned ASAP for a quick but thorough once over. It does sound like some kind of head trauma or perhaps concussion from flying into something but it's really hard to know for sure.

You mentioned that the bird is eating right..? Has it been vomitting at all? Vomitting is a sign of poisoning. Can you email me some pictures and I'll post them for the group. 
Perhaps this is just a very scared bird and is remaining very calm/still? My own Eggbert, who I've had for nearly 5 years is like this and is a domestic bird. If he was in a small cage, and I was staring at him or approached him, he would react by doing nothing as you have described Windy doing. Eggbert practically freezes when I approach him and if he's cornered....silly bird

Anyway, the bird sounds mostly healthy going by your description of it being plump and eating, poops sound a little off but nothing too scary yet.

Good luck and keep us posted,


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you wouldn't assume blindness if a bird can see to eat and finds a heating pad by sight. The response to a flashlight is usually to try and verify blindness when there are other signs like not reacting to motion and not seeing food. Flashlight tests are usually done with a small, strong beam that is shone straight into the eyes, and off, back, and off or some variation of that. Sometimes you really have to watch the pupil closely to tell if it's actually constricting. But it's not an acid test, just a quickie.

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

*Windy*

Hi Pidgey, Naturegirl and Brad,

All your help and advice are appreciated. I did try your test Naturgirl and Windy is reacting normally. Brad, Windy is not vomitting so hopefully poison can be ruled out. I can't get any photo's until I get another camera but thanks for offering your help, I may take you up on that as I still don't know how to post them. Will see what I can do about borrowing a camera. Pidgey, about the flashlight test, good idea. The answer and outcome follow below.

Well, I have come back from the Vet this evening. Seems there is good news and bad. A head injury now seems quite likely but the underlying cause of it is unknown. The vet gave her a very thorough exam and the eyes were tested and examined. Now we know why she sits like a statue without moving. Seem it was more luck than skill that she managed to fly onto my shelf. She can hardly see more than vague shadows and light. She also might not have been able to find her own food dish or water but did locate the heat OK, probably by feel.

While windy is not blind, she is not responding properly visually. The vet says she has only partial vision and noted that there is a red ring or corona around the pupil. It is indeed too red as I now know and a specialists advice is being sought on my behalf. Possibly anti-inflammatories are in line if there is swelling or internal pressure but I will have to wait for a response on that. There could be alternate therapies. She said that sometimes their vision does not recover even with therapy but we will do what we can to get Windy back on her feet again. She may not ever be released though and in that case I will be looking for a permanent indoor home for her.

She seems otherwise in good health, actually a bit underweight for an adult pigeon. I was surprised by this but then this is only my second pigeon so my estimate of weight was really just my best guess as compared to "Buddy".
Fecals were also checked and the vet said she is a touch dehydrated so I will keep up with the re-hydration therapy. Also, while she ate yesterday she took no food at all today and no water either as far as I could tell. 

The vet gave me a first class demonstration on feeding and watering directly into the crop which is great. I have never done this before so the help was appreciated for sure. Such a good vet! Until she eats on her own I will be feeding her baby bird formula and canned baby food. Strained peas, corn and sweet potatoes are what I managed to pick up just for tonight. 

Looks like Windy is in for a long stay until I can determine what her future will be. Free vrs Pet. I am hoping for the best though. The rehabber I E-mailed by the way, diagnosed blindness just by the descriptions without seeing Windy and before the vet saw her. Good call, she knows her stuff.
Sorry about the long post everyone.

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Thanks for the update and I'm glad you got her to the vet's today. Hmmm, yes, sounds like a mixed update of good and bad news.

Hopefully in time, with the anti-inflammatory drugs, she will start to recover her sight. I have no personal or second hand knowledge of this type of injury or what the proper treatment would be if there is any. Time and TLC is usually the best medicine if healing will be possible.

How much did the vet say Windy weighed?

Posting pictures on the forum is simple really but they have to be less than 100kb in size to upload. This was the proplem you had before because the pictures you were trying to attach were too large in size. When you "right click" your mouse on a picture file and select "properties", it will tell you how large the file is in KB's. If it's larger than 100kb, then you will need to resize the file so that it's under 100Kb.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It will take some deciphering because this is very clinical language but it may help you understand what the possibilities are with this kind of thing:

"Uvea
Uveitis in raptors is most commonly seen as a sequel to intraocular trauma and is characterized by aqueous flare, hypopyon and fibrin clots in the anterior chamber, iridal hemorrhages or gross hyphema. The latter was reported to be the most common ophthalmologic finding in injured raptors in one survey. Uveitis can occur following rupture of the crystalline lens or secondary to severe extraocular disease in conditions such as poxvirus infection. One case of bilateral intraocular inflammation with concomitant staphylococcus septicemia in a lovebird has been reported. Uveitis has been reported in psittacine birds with reovirus infection in which histopathologic changes suggested disseminated intravascular coagulopathy. Hypopyon and hemorrhage, sometimes with fixed dilated pupils (atypical for uveitis where miosis is more common), are characteristic ocular signs. Birds that recover may have synechiae." (See picture below)

"Clinical signs of uveitis vary, reflecting the diversity of inflammatory states in the eye. Active inflammation may be mild, with increased levels of aqueous proteins causing a flare that reduces the clarity of iris detail and pupil margin. More severe cases may be characterized by accumulation of pus or hemorrhage in the anterior chamber. Subtle signs including a darkened iris or more obvious lesions including posterior synechiae or organized fibrin clots in the anterior chamber suggest a past episode of anterior segment inflammation. Glaucoma is seen secondary to traumatic uveitis in raptors, and has been diagnosed without concurrent ocular disease in a canary. If the eye
appears painful, enucleation or evisceration is the only treatment."

AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison, pg. 687

Pidgey

Here's somewhat of a translation:

Inflammation of the uvea (which is the layer under the outer layer; it includes the iris, the inner lens of the eye and around the sphere beneath the white that shows) may include pus, hemorrhaged blood and other inflammatory debris that can build up in the anterior chamber of the eye (pretty much what you see underneath the clear layer over the lens but actually over the true lens and iris). When it happens, it's usually because of trauma but it has sometimes occurred due to diseases like poxvirus and a case of both eyes being affected by a staph infection has been documented in a lovebird. It has also occurred in birds of the parrot family from reovirus and has been believed to be due to a general failure of the normal clotting mechanism in the blood which in turn causes miniature hemorrhages in many places of the body, this being one of the most visible. The buildup of pus, inflammatory debris, hemorrhaged blood and sometimes fixed, dilated pupils are typical symptoms of uveitis. Birds that recover may retain milky eyes like the picture below. 

The second paragraph doesn't really add much except to reorganize the symptoms as to severity and the addition of glaucoma as a complication. If the eye appears to be painful to the bird then removal or gutting the thing may help. This, of course, means that the use of the eye for sight is gone completely and in your case it may be both eventually. We just hope that it doesn't go that far and that it's an injury versus an infection but it's still something that has to be considered because if it goes too long untreated, it may well mean total blindness and even eventual death.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Pidgey, you blow my mind. I am heading for the dictionary now but I have a feeling many of those terms won't be there. Looks like a trip to library is in line for me tomorrow. I still don't know exactly what course to follow though until the vet gets back to me. She is cooresponding with a colleague but could not be certain I could get a response until day after tomorrow. Any thoughts? I imagine aspirin is a complete no-no for birds. How else can I deal with possible inflammation on my own.

Uveitis, if I am reading correctly seems to make sense. Also, you have suggested disease. Up to this point I have only really considered that the trauma was caused by a blow or striking a window. I still have Windy in isolation but was wanting to bring her out so I could monitor her more closely to see if she is drinking enough. Would you recommend still keeping her and Buddy separated?

Hi Brad, 
I am sorry, I was so preoccupied with all the issues that I didn't get the exact weight. Thanks for the tips on posting pics. I also got some good advice from Treesa in that regard so will try soon and hope all goes off without a hitch. In another thread it was mentioned that maybe there should be a sticky for some of the technical problems some of us have. Have you ever considered writing one. Then we could all learn how you do the cool birthday cards and Avatars!

Cameron


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Just so you all know. I have set Windy right in her food dish and she is eating again. I guess she really could not find her food this morning. I think for the short term I will make her space smaller so her resources are readily available.

Cameron.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,

Seems we have had several rather 'stunned' Pigeons lately on the forum being wondered about...my 'new' one who at first I thought might be blind...and who was somewhat 'statue-like'...

(S)he did not eat or show any interest in anything for several days, then out of the blue, became a lean-mean-pecking-machine, making up for lost time and then some. I have been treating for Canker/Trichomoniasis, and will soon trreat for 'Worms'...

PPMV I believe can sometimes show in a statue-like manner of the Pigeon standing 'low' and not responding to being moved or stimulated...and or to varying degrees...

My PPMV Pigeon was very much like that, like she was carved out of 'Wood' for quite a while...just all pulled 'in' and resolute, you could hold her anywhich way, and none of her moved or reacted...

Toxins from various orders of food poisoning could probably do it also...


How are the Poops?

Can you describe them?

Prolly, as you are doing...subdued light, quiet, warmth, no drafts, good chow...good Water or electrolytes...soothing communications and sounds to them if you are close by, should be benificial...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Phil,

Yes I am following all the good advice I have been given and so far it seems to be working. Warmth, food, water and love. The poops were very white at first but I am told that is because they were mostly urates. She had not been getting enough solids for awhile is all. Now her poops are very large and very dark, so unlike Buddies. The vet said they were too dry and is a sign of partial dehydration. More liquids on the way. I just fed her for the first time tonight as her crop still seemed empty. About 5 mils of liquid combined with strained corn for a first go-round. I have never done this before so it was a little stressful on me. Anxious moments and a steep learning curve. I don't want to overfill the crop.

She, on the other hand was more relaxed about it but did fight the tube quite a bit at first. Whew. Same thing tomorrow morning. How on earth do all you guys manage this with the young ones, feeding so many times a day. It must be exhausting! Surely it gets easier with time. Please keep the advice coming though, I think I really need it right now. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


Ahhhhhh...so far, so good then...

"Strained Corn" I do not understand...

But feeding Babys, ( at least how I do it, which is a lot like their Pigeon parents would do it, only I use the hollow side of a baby Nipple instead of my Beak-mouth-throat) is easy and fast...unlike feeding via 'the tube' into their Crops direct...

Now, can you tell us what you are useing to feed? A long curved-tipped syringe of plastic? Or a soft tube fitted to some kind of Syringe? Or...?

Nutrition-wise...if the Corn is cooked it is about useless...

Really, Corn Rice and Beans is a 'complete' Protean, and one could imaginably combine them dry in a Blender and make a decent coarse-ish powder of them, adding Water of course, for feeding...

Anyway...awaiting your details...!

Lastly, is there any suggestion of their Crop being inflated or gasseous?

Candida can make for a rather weak and withdrawn Bird who no longer eats, and or is feeling very poorly and wilty and unresponsive...and it can interfere with their entire digestive system, Crop to Vent...

This Bird seems 'thin' to you?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 

I gotta hit-the-hay now, and tomorrow I will be out all day.

But I thought to mention, 'Seed Pops' which is to simply put whole, larger Seeds into their Beak, or really, fairly far into their Beak...

Plain dry Corn, such as 'Pop-Corn', small, ( the smallest of them would be prudent, of ) raw, wholesome ( shelled) Peanuts...dried Peas...Goji-Berries ( get at most any Health Food Store) cut into halves or thirds, all work very well for this.

I never thought of it previously, bbut one could slao ball up little bits of fresh Greens also for this...such as Chards or Kales or Cilantro...and this would tend to be very good for a convelescent Pigeon ( they are good for any Pigeon) .

Too, a very light application of Olive Oil on these items, allows one to then sprinkle powdered pro-iotics or Vitamines and Minerals or other nice things on them so the powder adheres, for the 'Seed-pops' then to include these things with the Seeds very easily...


It is a little tedious to do, but Whole Seeds given them this way, when they are not otherwise disposed to eeat of their own, makes for a nice slow even-paced digestion, gives their Gizzard something to do, and makes for a happy Crop, happy Tummy, and hopefully, happy poops too.

To do this, usually, one gently wraps the Bird in a smallish towell, from the back so two flaps of the towell fold across their front over eachother, and my method anyway, is then to hold them between my knees ( just beehind my knees, really, ) as I sit, and then I have both hands free to do the deed of gently prying open their Beak, and putting one Seed at-a-time far enough into it for them to swallow.

I keep the Bird upright of course, straight up really...between my knees, gripping their Tail more or less, or a little higher than that, as it has the lower area of the wrapped small towell around it...

Your Bird may simply have become famished even, from somehow not managing to find enough to eat over some time period, especially if the ground is frozen and snow covered in your region...

Opportunistic infections or illness of some kind of course should be wated closely for....but, they may possibly have had nothing more 'wrong' with them, than that they were suffering privations of food and water, and or whatever happened to them after that had compromised them ( kids with 'rocks', chill, or as may be...)

Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Camrron,

It's a lot easier in looking up those words to just go to Google.com, put in the word "definition" and then the one that you're looking up and <ENTER>. That's a lot faster and simpler.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I added a section to that post that puts it in somewhat easier language so you can go back and read it again and maybe not need to hit the dictionary or library.

Anyhow, you asked other questions. Aspirin is okay if you can meter a small enough dose. I have given Phil a description once that if you can take a regular 325 milligram (5 grain) aspirin (not with Tylenol or caffeine--has to be real aspirin) and use a knife to separate a flake about the size of the head of a regular sewing pin (thickness, too), you can give that to the bird three times a day safely enough.

I was actually surprised that you asked that because I had assumed that your vet would have given you some Metacam for Windy after the exam. That's probably a better drug for this but I don't know how you'd get some in a hurry without getting it from a vet. If you're strapped for time, then go with the aspirin in the interim, but try to get a script for Metacam (unless the vet has a better idea--they often do!).

I'd try to keep them (Windy and Buddy) separated for now, especially in light of the possibility of a disease etiology. If it comes to full blindness, there are several of us who keep completely blind birds--Rae Charles, Izze and Unie being a few. They each have different lives but are happy with what they have. I have heard of a few blind pigeons that have spent years standing in a corner and being tube-fed for every meal. In such cases, I expect it's an awful existence. So, you might do a little reading on those stories in anticipation of the worst case scenario because it takes a special home for a blind bird.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Aspirin is okay if you can meter a small enough dose. I have given Phil a description once that if you can take a regular 325 milligram (5 grain) aspirin (not with Tylenol or caffeine--has to be real aspirin) and use a knife to separate a flake about the size of the head of a regular sewing pin (thickness, too), you can give that to the bird three times a day safely enough.



Hi Pidgey, Thank you for affirming this to us all. Awhile ago I mentioned the postive aspects of aspirin to the members but a debate was sparked. This is an OLD trick used by OLD pigeon fanciers around the world really. Since you are so highly respected here, it's nice to hear your mention of this It really does work and like you said, proper dosages should be measured for safety, even though the old timers were never that exact


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Have you tried Arnica Montana for internal trauma and injury? It it wonderful, but you have to try it to believe in it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Have you tried Arnica Montana for internal trauma and injury? It it wonderful, but you have to try it to believe in it.



I've tried it with good results.

I've never tried aspirin in my birds, but it is an excellent antiinflammatory in addition to other benefits. The only thing I don't like is the side effect of bleeding and I would use it with food since it can cause gastritis in humans, I don't know if the crop would be affected. Just a thought.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Camrron said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Yes I am following all the good advice I have been given and so far it seems to be working. Warmth, food, water and love. The poops were very white at first but I am told that is because they were mostly urates. She had not been getting enough solids for awhile is all. Now her poops are very large and very dark, so unlike Buddies. The vet said they were too dry and is a sign of partial dehydration. More liquids on the way. I just fed her for the first time tonight as her crop still seemed empty. About 5 mils of liquid combined with strained corn for a first go-round. I have never done this before so it was a little stressful on me. Anxious moments and a steep learning curve. I don't want to overfill the crop.
> 
> ...


Bless your heart, Cameron! Been following Windy's threads and I sure hope she recovers and she and Buddy can become friends. I know you want to release her and I hope that will be possible too.

Sure can relate to what you are going through! I've had to learn to do a few things with Squeaks too - ALL BY MYSELF - without running to Cindy for help! She is always willing to help but it's time for me to learn...keep up the good work and I'll be sending LOTS of healing thoughts!!


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi all,

I have been holding the course waiting to hear back from the vet. I don't know why she didn't prescribe Metacam but I am thinking she perhaps knows more than she let on which is why she wanted to do extra consultation before prescribing anything. Meanwhile I have dosed with aspirin according to Pidgeys instructions and continue to hand feed. A pin head is very small indeed but I am following the instruction carefully. I will call the vet in the morning and ask about Metacam. Also I have learned that Prednisone may be a solution for inflamation so am trying to source information on that. 

I have never heard of Arnica Montana. Is that a herbal therapy? Also, if there is an ocular disease should I be worried about my own eyes getting infected? Probably another dumb question but I need to know.

Thanks everyone,

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,

I am having trouble understanding what you are mentioning about your Pigeonn's Eye or Eyes...can you give a fresh description?

Any chance you could post an image for us to see?

Too, would you clearify what you are feeding them, and some details of the method and apparatis or impliment?

I had mentioned 'tube-feeding' being less 'easy' then feeding Babys...but mostly this refers to their willing participation. Tube feeding can be quite easy if one observes some basic steps and proceedures...so...describe if you will what you are or have been doing, and I wil see if I can elaborate additional details based on that...

Thanks... 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hello Phil,

My situation is that I am still using a Pentium 1 and have no digital camera in any case. I just bought a P4 but it isn't set up yet. I am trying to borrow a digital camera so will get a picture on as soon as I can. I still need some special software to size it etc. So many things to do, so little time.

I will try to describe the eyes though. They are quite red but not all through the pupil area (what I call the pupil is the colored area of the eye, not the black dot in the center.) Maybe I should be saying Iris. Anyway, unlike Buddy's where it is all orange, in this bird there is a distinct red area around the outside edge, a red corona. That is what concerned the vet and caused her to fuss over the eyes. When she tested him there was virtually no response from Windy. She seems to be only partly sighted but fortunately not totally blind. She seems otherwise healthy and is beautifully feathered. Up until her accident or whatever happened it seems she was a healthy, well fed, adult bird. Hope that helps.

Thanks again Pidgey for re-writing your post for me. It was so much easier for me to understand and much appreciated.

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It would take more than your average camera to get a close-up enough view to make out the detail of what you're describing. The anterior chamber of the eye is the one closest out and contains a fluid called the "aqueous humor". In uveitis, this fluid gets a bunch of debris floating in it that simply "muddies the water". That picture above is a lot easier to see with a laptop screen versus an old monitor, I noticed yesterday. It shows a milky looking eye. There are many levels of severity, of course.

I have seen pigeons with naturally red irises and even fading from orange to red but it seems that your emphasis on this bird's eyes indicates that it's more than just that. I have no idea about whether this is something that you can "catch". You might also ask the vet if it would be a good idea to run a few days course of a topical eye ointment like Terramycin or Neo-Poly-Bac.

Does the pupil look black and clear or is it clouded?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,


Ahhhhh...well, that must be one rather old Computer then...! Lol...

My 'Toshiba' Lap=Top is a PentiumII, and dates from later 1997. It is happy with Win98SE and I have also upped the Hard Drive from 2 gig to 40, and upped the memory from 28 to 160, and this is about as far as I can go with the IP it has, so...

Anyway...hmmmm...

I have seen 'red' surrounds in lieu of the more usually seen 'orange' color ones...and this was merely how some Pigeons' Eyes are colored.

Are you certain this represents an infection or irritation of some kind, rather then being merely the Bird's natural Eye color for the surrund of their Pupil..?

And, if it is an infection of some kind of their Eye(s), then, certainly, some Antibiotic Eye Ointment would be appropriate to be applying. One can get this in a tiny tube at any Drug Store or Pharmacy...or, in a pinch, use 'Neosporin', available likewise as well as at about any Grocery Store.

Is there swelling of the eye Lids? Any discharge of liquid or goo or anything?

Is the Bird keeping it's Eyes closed constantly or do they seem to have them open very much? Do their lids get glued 'shut' to any extent?


Lastly, would you describe your feeding details?

What ingredients for the food? How you are getting it into their Crop?

Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Camrron,

There is another possibility that we didn't consider--there is an ocular form of Paratyphoid that does strange things to the eyes including shifting color. There are horrible medical terms for them and I've never seen the condition but we'll see if we can look up a thread or reference for comparison.

Well, hmm... it looks like the eye symptoms usually only show with "high-dose infections" and the symptoms are called "conjunctivitis, iridocyclitis and panophthalmia". The middle one is specifically of the iris. You might look into that, though.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


Important - !

1) What are you feeding this Bird? And 'how' are you feeding them?

When you mentioned 'strained corn' I asked you for more details, three times now, and none, so far, have been given. This is important for your Bird's recovery and well being, it is not trivial or incidental, it is not merely that I am bored or trying to complicate matters...lol, so please, do run through this with us?



2) Was this Vet an "Avian" Vet? and are they familiar with Pigeons as such?

'Dazed', withdrawn or appertently ( relatively ) unresponsive Birds are hardly an uncommon occurance for rehabbers or others like myself who tend the wayward or ill or injured.


Many Pigeons I have had showed what most people could call 'dialated' Pupils...

Rarely have I seen any seem to be vision impared, but sometimes I have to where I wondered iof they were Blind.

Too, I think 'hysterical blindness' for want of a better term, is a very real possibility sometimes for them. More often, they are merely not interested in their surrounds oweing to their illness or injury which is not necessarily indicitive of a Brain injury or neurological compromise of the Visual Cortex or Eyes per-se, but is rather, indicicative of their being somewhat withdrawn in their own way.

I do not believe a fast exam by a g-p Vet could decisively determine the quality or extent of a Bird's actual Vision, but rather, could only make some guess as to the Bird's appearent reactions or interests at the moment.

If the Vet believed there is infection or inflammation or injury to the Eyes, why did they not recommend or provide an topical Antibiotic Eye Ointment?

Anyway, I am getting the feeling here that this Vet is not familiar with Birds, and, moreso, not familiar with Pigeons, no matter how good their intentions or how favorable their fees...


Thats it for now...!

Just wanted to run through those items...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Sorry Phil, 

I was not ignoring you about the feeding but I thought I had said that Windy had started eating again when I had set her right into the feed dish. I will have to go back and see where I said that though. I will try to answer all your questions one at a time.

I am using a 5 ml syringe with a thin plastic tube attached to it, about three inches long that the vet provided for me. The feeder end is smooth if you are wondering. About the strained peas and corn I had mentioned. This is the term we used to give to baby food. It is pureed vegetables in little jars and was suggested to use by the vet as I could not pick up baby-bird formula the day I needed it. I am using the syringe at the moment mainly to administer liquids and the very tiny dose of aspirin that I am giving. I mix these with little of the puree so that Windy is not getting an aspirin dose on an empty crop. She is eating, just not enough. I measure the food exactly several times a day so I know what is going in and what is coming out. Windy is still on the heating pad in a quiet corner of my room but seems to be more alert than before. Her pupils are still dilated.

I am using the feeder tube to put liquids directly into her crop by the way. 2.5 mls at a time although I understand I could feed as much as 5 mls at a sitting.

The vet is an Avian Vet and the resaon no drops were prescribed is because she did not think there was an eye infection though she did say she would consult with a colleague and call me today but went home sick herself and was unavailable when I tried to contact her. I have questions about Metacal and Prednisone but these relate to possible swelling and pressure. What I understand is that what most likely happened is the bird has somehow been concussed. I never suggested there was an eye infection but I think that I was getting off track after doing my reading and started to have needless worries. There are simple facts about the eyes that I have described, there is no more than that I can tell you except as follows.

They don't show any of the symptoms suggested by others and thank goodness too or I would be really worried. They are not caked over, weeping, opaque nor is Windy sleeping closed eyed throughout the day. So far none of the suggestions matches this problem. Like I said before, the eyes are red and she appears to me to be stunned. She sits for most of the day in one spot, barely moving even when I check her food and water. The only real activity is when I pick her up to give her water and check her crop. I have allowed her out of the box to see what she might do. She walked across the room, stopped and stayed in that spot until I put her back in the "coop" I have made for her.

The coop is a modified shipping trunk, about 3'x2'x2' and open topped. She has never made the slightest attempt to fly out and just seems happy to stay warm on the pad. Hope all this gives you a better idea of what is going on and answers some of your questions. I rather hope that she has only "hysterical" blindness as you call it and that there is no neurological damage. I am doing my best here Phil running up leads and checking out whatever comes up. My thoughts are though that if I don't see any improvements shortly I may just go with an antibiotic as a precautionary measure and see if there isn't an improvement.

Meanwhile, I am going with the standbys that have been suggested in so many posts. Probiotics, ACV, warmth and a quiet environment. She is pooping regularly and they look now to be back to what I think of as normal.

Cameron

Cameron


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,

The pupil is black and clear. There is no opaqueness to it. Like I mentioned to Phil the pupil is still dilated. Thank goodness I have Buddy who is healthy to make comparisons against or I would not have noticed it in the first place. I go back and forth from one to the other looking at this and that for comparison. It has meant a lot of hand washing between birds. I am really drying out! Anyway, nothing new to add today really. Windy has taken to sleeping right in her food dish at times though. I always put it back in the exact same spot so she can find it but I have had the feeling since yesterday she may be seeing me but is still just unresponsive.

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cameron, you're doing a terrific job with Windy. Nothing like a crash course is there? Don't be concerned about her sleeping in her seed bowl. Most of ours do that from time to time. I believe they think it is cozy.

Maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just can't seem to get some type of neurological brain damage out of my head! Hopefullly, with time, she will make great improvements.

You are really doing a terrific job, Cameron, and Windy is so lucky to be in your care! TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF TOO! Worry causes stress and we all know what stress does! 

Healing thoughts are sent your way and I'm looking forward to hearing that Windy is getting better!

Keep those moisterizers handy!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Cameron for you kind indulgence...


I had gone back trying to find the feed mentions, but I only found the 'tube' reference, so, I wanted to review the matter in case it would benifit your efforts...

More below...




Camrron said:


> Sorry Phil,
> 
> I was not ignoring you about the feeding but I thought I had said that Windy had started eating again when I had set her right into the feed dish. I will have to go back and see where I said that though. I will try to answer all your questions one at a time.



Ahhhhhh...good then, so she is pecking and eating, but only when you put her literally 'in' her feed dish...

Well, nothing wrong with that...!




> I am using a 5 ml syringe with a thin plastic tube attached to it, about three inches long that the vet provided for me. The feeder end is smooth if you are wondering.



So long as the tube is soft enough to deflect against the inside or bottom of her Crop...or, if not, then with great care it does not push against either...

Tepid formula of course is kindest.

Some small Catheters are actually far too stiff for Crop feeding in so far as they sometimes can puncture or abrade the bottom or side.

So, now that she is eating regular Seeds off and on of her own, are there decent poops happenning? and, do they look 'allright'?




> About the strained peas and corn I had mentioned. This is the term we used to give to baby food. It is pureed vegetables in little jars and was suggested to use by the vet as I could not pick up baby-bird formula the day I needed it. I am using the syringe at the moment mainly to administer liquids and the very tiny dose of aspirin that I am giving. I mix these with little of the puree so that Windy is not getting an aspirin dose on an empty crop. She is eating, just not enough. I measure the food exactly several times a day so I know what is going in and what is coming out. Windy is still on the heating pad in a quiet corner of my room but seems to be more alert than before. Her pupils are still dilated.



"Nutrical" or it's UK equivelant, might be a good addition to the incidental purree repasts...as would some Misu ( get at any Oriental Market in their refridgerator section) and maybe some digestive enzymes and pro-biotics ( any Health Food store...)





> I am using the feeder tube to put liquids directly into her crop by the way. 2.5 mls at a time although I understand I could feed as much as 5 mls at a sitting.



Have you tried offering her tepid liquids in a little steep sided bowl or cup?

Offering them so that her beak is immersed just up to the nares?

I have usually found that a non-self-feeding adult will tend to at least drink, and, that tepid is kindest to a deliacte or convelscing condition...



> The vet is an Avian Vet and the resaon no drops were prescribed is because she did not think there was an eye infection though she did say she would consult with a colleague and call me today but went home sick herself and was unavailable when I tried to contact her. I have questions about Metacal and Prednisone but these relate to possible swelling and pressure. What I understand is that what most likely happened is the bird has somehow been concussed. I never suggested there was an eye infection but I think that I was getting off track after doing my reading and started to have needless worries. There are simple facts about the eyes that I have described, there is no more than that I can tell you except as follows.



Ahhhh, okay...too, I have been working more or less double shifts lately, and so am a little loopy/weary...Lol...so, bear with me...




> They don't show any of the symptoms suggested by others and thank goodness too or I would be really worried. They are not caked over, weeping, opaque nor is Windy sleeping closed eyed throughout the day. So far none of the suggestions matches this problem. Like I said before, the eyes are red and she appears to me to be stunned. She sits for most of the day in one spot, barely moving even when I check her food and water. The only real activity is when I pick her up to give her water and check her crop. I have allowed her out of the box to see what she might do. She walked across the room, stopped and stayed in that spot until I put her back in the "coop" I have made for her.



Okay...I understand now.



> The coop is a modified shipping trunk, about 3'x2'x2' and open topped. She has never made the slightest attempt to fly out and just seems happy to stay warm on the pad. Hope all this gives you a better idea of what is going on and answers some of your questions.



Yup, yup, yup...



> I rather hope that she has only "hysterical" blindness as you call it and that there is no neurological damage. I am doing my best here Phil running up leads and checking out whatever comes up.



You are doing wonderfully!

You are a joy...

She is a very fortunate Pigeon...to have your kindness and care.




> My thoughts are though that if I don't see any improvements shortly I may just go with an antibiotic as a precautionary measure and see if there isn't an improvement.



Well too, some of me thinks this c-o-u-l-d be a presentation ( as our Pidgey calls them) of some order of Virus. There are viurtually endless of them in fact, whose particulars can vary with the resistance of the individual Bird, or, their severity in particular circumstances, and or with whatever other factors influence these maters.

I would conjecture that some presentations of the PPMV might even occasion the various symptoms or appearances you describe.

These Viruses can take six weeks to clear out, or longer, to where the Bird is again likely to resume their old interests or passtimes after however long of being subdued or stunned or of minimal activity and interests. Though usually it seems once the worst has passed, they slowly come their long way back 'up'.

Self feeding of course is most excellent as some order of barometer for their having interest and self actualization.

My PPMV Pigeon was very statue-like for quite a while, hardly ever moveing...remaining in a fixed position even if you picked her up and turned her this way and that. If you set her on the floor somewhere, you could come back off and on through out the day and she would still be there in the same spot. Mine exhibited the palsies and 'Star Gazeing' features also, which established for me the probable diagnosis of PPMV as agent of her distress...

But I think it is possible, that some Birds may be effected with the PPMV in odd ways without per-se exhiting the 'classic' palsies, tremors and 'Star Gazeing' features...or, of course, in whatever way, they may have any number of other possible Viruse also, whose symptoms could vary...

So, yes, do your best on good nutrition, for sure...

Powdered Brewer's Yeast is also a good addition for supplying various "B" Vitamines in a safe and ffriendly form...and the "B" Vitamines are understood to benifit neurological related stresses or compromise.


QUOTE]Meanwhile, I am going with the standbys that have been suggested in so many posts. Probiotics, ACV, warmth and a quiet environment. She is pooping regularly and they look now to be back to what I think of as normal.


Oh good then, on the poops, and all...

Are they green-brown with a white top, damp-paste basically? and moist-firm so one may pick them up with one's fingers easily?

Is she getting Grit of some kind also? 

Did you ( sorry, if I missed it, ) get a fecal analysis done when you visited your Vet?

Some kinds of 'worms' or endoparasites, excrete toxins that effect the host, and some of these could possibly make for some odd or seemingly neurological or diminshed function symptoms.




> Cameron


Best wishes to you both..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Maggie and Shi for your kind words and thoughts. Thanks too Phil for all your advice. It is late now so I can hardly absorb anymore but will get back to you tomorrow about your questions. Good idea about the brewers yeast by the way. I knew of it way back and we used to give it to our dogs but I had sort forgotten about it along the way. It sort of fell off the back of my brain along with my 9 times table and some phone numbers I used to have memorized.

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, now that we've established that the pupil is clear, I'm a little easier about it. I don't think I've ever tried to see if an ill pigeon reacted the same on the light test to a normal or healthy bird. When they're really sick, they often act badly out of it and I've had a few that came to me so dehydrated that they were mostly-dead but it just never came to me to experiment with their eyes. 

Reading the description, uveitis sounds like it can be as little as to just involve the muscles of the iris so that they stay dilated. In such a case, I would think that keeping the bird in somewhat darkened or low-light conditions might be a lot better. Too much brightness can damage the retina if the iris can't close down. I'd add to be very careful to cover the carrier when taking the bird to the vet, as well.

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thank-you Pidgey, will do. That makes perfect sense to me about the iris not closing out properly.


Phil, 

I have provided Grit. Also, you asked about the poops. Yes they are copius and looking quite normal now. Exactly as they should be in a typical pigeon. They are a little larger than Buddies and a tad moister but nothing that concerns me. She is regular so I am happy. Actually, they are almost exactly as you described. No I did not get a fecal done. Just wanted reassurance they were not too odd at that time. As I mentioned earlier, when I first got her the poops were mostly white. In other words all ureates. Things are better now.

Good point about the tube feeding. I have been carefull in my feeding not to put the tip too far down the crop. I know the vet went deeper and showed me how you could feel it but I am not so confident yet and am being careful how I do this. I had not been using tepid formula but this can be managed. She has responded, at least in my mind to the aspirin. so I am thinking she was in some sort of pain. This morning she was the strongest ever. Really fighting back for the first time and you can't believe how happy that made me. She may be on the comeback trail.

She is on pro-biotics, crop fed with her liquids and aspirin now. I don't know if Misu will be necessary if she starts to eat full meals on her own but I will keep that in mind just in case.

I must say I feel encouraged after reading about your bird and reading so many other posts. Pigeons seem to adopt that statue type pose for many reasons but so many have recovered nonetheless. Seems hopefull at the moment as her strength is recovering. I will keep you updated about what happens. Thanks for the advice. This pigeon may just be exhibiting some very typical signs of stress or shock that will pass with time. As long as she is nourished and warm in the meantime she should be just fine.

Thanks too for the thoughts on antibiotics. Six weeks is a long time for a bird who is convalescing and not eating normally. I feel I can get her over the bump though. One day at a time.

The vet has just called and Prednisone is on the way. Will pick up the script this afternoon. It is apparently a terrific anti-inflammatory. She is recommending against the use of antibiotics as well based on what she observed. 

Cameron


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

*Newcastles*

I just got some very sad news. The specialist thinks that based on the symptoms and observations that Windy has Newcastles. I am told there is very little that can be done except to keep her comfortable till the end. I hope they are wrong. The suggested course is euthanization for the benefit of Buddy who may or may not have been exposed, I just don't know for sure yet though. Any thoughts are welcome, this is upsetting. Thanks,

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Newcastle is fairly rare and there is a vaccine. If you really thought that Buddy was exposed, it would be a good idea to find someone with the vaccine as soon as possible.

There are quite a few strains of Newcastle and they're not all fatal--many aren't and so if the bird is continuing to eat and drink, I'd be hopeful. I'll rustle up a page that you can read about it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, it's here:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

Now, it's not easy figuring some of that page out. Newcastle Disease is kind of like the primary paramyxovirus of interest. The entire section under "Newcastle Disease" goes all the way down until you get to PMV-1/_PIGEON_. Once you get there, it's all about the standard PMV's that various species get. So, when you read about the strains in the ND section, you'll see that it might not be as bad as you're making it sound and I really hope that's the case.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am sorry to read the news, Cameron.
Don't give up hope, please. Newcastle can't be diagnosed just by observations adn symptoms. And even if it is ND, the bird still can have a good life.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks you guys. I will read up on the info Pidgey. I have not lost hope by any means. I would not euthanize even if advised to. I will get back to you later. Time to do some serious reading.
----------------------------------------------------

OK, I'm back, this is an edit. This looks serious Pidgey. I can just barely understand what they are talking about in some of the journals but I get enough to know that the majority of birds don't survive from Newcastles. I was alarmed to read that it can transfer to people and can result in severe conjuntivitis amongst other things. 

I have no choice but to return to the vet and get a test done if one is available. I am going with Reti's remarks that the disease cannot be diagnosed by observation alone though. This gives me some hope.

I really believe this bird may be on the mend. She has serious issues though. Tonight she flew from the coop and successfully landed (for the second time) on my closet shelf. She must therefore be sighted. She must also be improving. On the negative side, when I recaptured her she was panting as though she had just run a marathon. To me this suggests a repiratory problem which is likely bacterial and not viral. I could be wrong. 

I really don't know what to think right now and I can't figure out what they are talking about on that web-site about immunizing birds. Hopefully the vet can interpret this for me. Looks like I have to watch my own health now along with Buddy's and Windy's until I get more answers. Thank goodness for that anti-bacterial soap I use.

Cameron


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Fingers and toes crossed that the prognosis is WRONG, Cameron...only time will tell...personally, I'd bet not, but then again, how many will rely on "gut" instinct????

I know you will keep us posted...and we are all with you!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,


I think your Vet is speaking more figuratively than she may have intended, in that 'Newcastles' can be mentioned as a catch-all, even as can the PPMV at times, for any number of possible Virus entities, who as themselves are not likely to be definitely or definitively diagnosed or detected by tests.

Just call it an instance of "PPMV" for all practical purposes, and hang in there. For all you know, the worst may already be behind by now...and from what you describe so far, I would say, it is.

If this were really the classic 'Newcastles' there would likely be many instances of worry and alarm in the press and among Poultry raisers and so on...ariseing from the almost necessary occasions of many other Birds showing it's symptoms or perishing poste haste.

Too, in most of the World, Vets are obliged by Law to report suspected Newcastle cases to authorities, who then, at their descretion will come out and exterminate the Birds suspected of having it, because it is considered so threatening to Bird populations of any kind, or to commercial investments in domesticated/food production Bird populations, anyway.

However, I do not believe your Bird has Newcastles as such.

Many Vets are not up on the Virus illnesses or to distinguish them very well from one another.


Anyway, as I had suspected that some Virus was the mischief-maker here, and some of my interest in the poops' appearance had been to see if the presentation of probable PPMV were exhibiting any effects there, my feeling and judgement is that yours may have a very good chance of recovery, with pro-tem neurological symptoms of some fairly light kind...and as such, is a very lucky Bird...

He self feeds, flys a little, and is generally improveing already from your care and attentions favoring him.

Few PPMV Birds enjoy such pleasures untill long, sometimes very long recovery times have elapsed under quite intentional care and feeding. Yours may have has a somehow 'mild' case which has already run most of it's course before you got him.


Keep up the good Work..!

Please do your best to advise or impress upon your Vet, of this being a probable "PPMV case", and NOT a presentation of 'Newcastle' per-se...

P.S. -

Just read down through the various posts after your 'sad news' `mention, and...

Well, don't worry about getting anything from your Bird, just use basic sensible hygene practices generally, and for that matter, regular Soap and Water, is proved more effective at removeing germs or viruses from one's hands than the per-se germacidal soaps and so on, if one simply use lots of friction when washing.

If you have other Birds ( sorry, I do not recall if you do) you should excercise various simple precautions to protect them from what may well be a Virus communicible to them from your patient, or from your Hands if you have not washed them between handleings and so on.

So, make sure no poops can be stepped on and tracked around or rendered into airborne dusts...and, keep your possible PPMV Bird seperated from any other Birds so that there is no contact or exposure to them.

Otherwise, there is no danger to you, and certainly vastly less than say touching the everage 'salt shaker' or ketchup bottle at any restaurant would be, let alone door knobs and so on, which of course everyone does all the time...lol...


Now, too, lastly, you mention your Bird flying a little, even if panting afterward...well, this is a VERY good thing that he CAN fly, and surely suggests his situation is far more mild than most. The panting could be from the effects of the Virus, without having to be from any bacteriological or fungal or Air Sack Mite or endoparasite related compromise, but, eventually, these could, or should, be looked into of course...


See to it if you can, that your Bird gets to have direct, outdoor Sunshine, and often.



Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I will do exactly as you have advised Phil and will get onto it in the morning.
I need a more definitive answer for me and for Buddy too. The Newcastle diagnosis must be incorrect in my mind. The vet did say she had never seen a case of it in her practice before. I still think it is a head injury myself however PPMV cannot be ruled out. A fecal needs to be done and ASAP.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 



I am confident that the Newcastle diagnosis is not correct.

Likely, your Vet has encountered relatively little or no PMV or Pigeon-PMV (PPMV) presentations, and, for want of having done so, is thinking classicaly along previously archatypal lines of otherwiuse convenient reference.

Have her 'google' "PPMV" at her liesure, and all should be easy for her after that with less burdon on you to pursuade her...!

PMV or PPMV Birds will be of course liable to mishap and misadventure from their compromise; those who can muddle through somehow, a little less so, but still.

Most simply perish from privation, deydration, secondary opportunistic bacterias or as may be...or from predation by Cats, Dogs or other carnivores who will find them easy or easier to catch, and so on...

Yours somehow appears to have muddled through, and if struck by a stone, this may be a secondary issue rather than a primary one.

If both Eyes are the same, and if no definitive signs of concussion as such, it is maybe unlikely the stone had really bothered them 'head' wise.

A very lucky Bird to have found you!

My guess, is that the worst of it is behind now, and good nutrition ( wholesome Seeds, dried Seaweed, suppliments variously added, ACV- Water and so on), direct Sunshine, comforts, warmth when they may wish it...patience, affection and kindness and deference will be the best regimen...and, maybe some nice anti-inflamitories just for good measure.



The panting may well be from the Virus and not from any other cause. We may recall with ourselves even, if down with the 'flu, that even simple exhertions sometimes are taxing...

Obtaining a fecal exam is still a good idea I think...

You are doing a great job with this Cameron...!

Practically speaking, I do not think there are any tests Vets can do to definitively identify the PPMV or other Viruses on a typical patient. Rather, these are diagnosed inferentially by experience and by evaluateing the symptoms. The fecal analysis will not include a Virus aspect, but, will look for Coccidiosis, Worms of various kinds, maybe Trichomona activities, odd or curious whatevers if present, or other bacteriological or endoparasite related interests.

Till next...!

Best wishes to you both..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When it comes to humans getting ND such that there are detectable symptoms, it has been limited to cases of workers around entire chicken houses that have had epidemics and the dose of infection was very high. I'm pretty sure that even if your bird got it, it would be next to impossible for you to come down with symptoms.

Do I think your bird has ND? The chances are extremely slim. And if it was going to die of it, it should have done it by now. The bad news is that for a definitive test, I was told by my vet that they'd have to take brain and kidney (organ) samples from the bird in necropsy so I guess there isn't a simple test from saliva or blood unless they've got something newer than my vet knows about.

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

*Yikes, that is a severe test!*

I agree with you Pidgey. I don't think that Windy has ND. I don't know how the Specialist can possibly do a diagnosis like that without seeing the bird. Windy has been progressing with care and feeding. From what I read,(the info you sent) she should already be gone if that disease was present. Mis-diagnosis seems to be the problem here so I think I will relax a little and carry on with what you all have suggested. I am not about to give up her liver or brain to find out if I can save her life. I sort of wish I had just kept it to myself though but I got quite worried when I first heard of the diagnosis.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 



Well too, unless treating Wild Life Birds, or so called feral Birds, where one sees all kinds of things, few Vets would tend to see various Viruses when treating pets.

The specialist with your Vet does not sound at all up on these matters either.

And, likely, Virus incidence has been rare tradionally in your region, so, it woud be unlikely for anyone thereabouts to have much experience in spotting it or trating for it generally.

Too, Vets are in no position to other than treat patients briefly, they do not care for patients long term, or intimately, and so the various regimens for protracted recoveries are not something they have experience or practical guidelines for.

But as Pidgey mentions, and I feel likewise, your Bird is almost certainly over whatever the worst of it would have been, and is now in a positive recovery phase anyway.

But, too...there is of course some possibility this is not even a Virus at all, even though that is probably the best guess for now.

Vitamine deficiencies, genetic predisposition to have impediments for assimilating one Vitamine or another from normal or compromised-available diet, trouble finding food in winter, eating dubious mcompromises of food-things to try and sustain themselves, old damage or liabilities from illnesses or injurys past, food poisoning of some kind, metal-poisoning, mild concussion...'worms'...molds, privation, all could conspire to create a tableau presenting more or less the symptoms you have encountered...

But anyway, my bet is that this is a Virus of some kind, and it is not likely anyone will have any means to say for sure, which one it is...

But Viruses can effect them with varied emphasis, sometimes even the same Virus can effect individual Birds differently as far as which processes or functions are impaired to evidence whatever symptoms.

You get a pretty decent Winter I imagine.

Are there many Pigeons to be seen in your broader area?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

*Thanks Phil and Thanks Pidgey.*

We have hundreds of pigeons up here Phil. Probably thousands. I have seen huge beautiful feral flocks over the river and around the bridges. Someone is feeding them when the snow is on the ground but I have no idea who. These are tough birds. Like I said to you and Pidgey, I am overwhelmed by all your help and I want to thank you both so much for all the support and advice. Until tomorrow.

Cameron


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

*Prednisone*

I thought it would be good to mention that I have had a vey good response to the Prednisone treatment in just one day. If anyone else has tried this you will surely know what I mean. Windy has flown again today, is very alert for the first time and is now sleeping standing on one leg. That in itself is a huge improvement as before she slept sitting down in the food dish and had a really sick look to her. This indicates that she was suffering some sort of inflamation and that Prednisone is doing the trick. Metacal, by the way is not as effective for inflamation I am told. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,


Oooooo!

This does sound very nice indeed...!


The 'One-Leg' snooze position is a very good thing for you to see, and for us to hear of.

Well, who knows?

Maybe all this was 'just-a-rock'...

('just' in comparison to some protracted, potentially debilitating Virus with secondary potentials for infections and so on scenario anyway...)

Well...so far, so good!

Best wishes!

Keep them 'stuffed' with lots of nice happy Seeds!
So they make many nice poops for you to brag about...as of course you already are...

Lol...

Seaweed ( matted, dried, thin kind, get at any Oriental Market) shredded with fingers and set out for them, is a good source of Vitamine "A" and some other odd things, as well that direct Sunshine, in-a-cage for that matter for prudence, likewise...for the convelescent or as may be...

Glad to hear the good news..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pikachu23739 (Jan 6, 2006)

Camrron said:


> Hi ,
> 
> I was posting under "dazed pigeon" but thought a new thread was in line. My pigeon, Windy, has dilated pupils and very little to no response to a flashlight. Any thoughts from members would be appreciated as I am out of my depth on this one.
> 
> Cameron


www.freewebs.com/westiofengland/


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I need a little advice on feeding. Windy is eating less yesterday and today, about 1/2 tablespoon of seed or a touch more. I am having to supplement with manual feedings but am not sure how much or how often. Also her poop is bright green today. Don't know what that means if anything. I have now had her 9 days and she is flying around just fine. She can see but I don't know how well. She is quite blind in dim light. Can't see a thing. but buddy can so she does certainly have an eye issue. I am feeding her 5mls formula twice daily right now. Thanks,

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She is not eating enough, Cameron.
The best way to tell if she is getting enough nutrition is to weigh her, at least every other day before meals.
When hand feeding, I feed an adult pigeon around 30-35 ml in one sitting. So, you might want to give him more.
If they don't get enough nutrition the droppings can turn green.
Another common reason for green droppings is cocciodiosis.
Byt first I would address the feeding issue and then you see if there is any change in the droppings.

Now don't go and give her 30ml of food tonight. You have to increase the amount gradulally. You can start by giving her 10ml tonight and then 15 in the morning and see how that goes.

Glad he is active. 
Some cod liver oil rich in vit.A might help her vision.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Obviously, there is a certain relationship between baseline metabolism, exercise and intake such that the only sure answer when 'enough is enough' is best monitored by daily weigh-ins. If the bird is thin, then you'd like it to gain but if it's okay then simply maintaining is enough.

I don't know what the typical side-effects of Prednisone are and how they're going to affect the appetite and gut but it's probably written down somewhere. The effect of the drug is to moderate the immune and reconstructive responses similar to how cortisol (the body's stress hormone) works. Some people (birds, bugs and beasts) just don't make enough and their immune responses can be the real problem (way overblown) instead of the solution. That's a huge discussion, there.

But, historically, the long term use of corticosteroids has significant effects (many negative) on the body such that we don't want to use it unless we have to. They definitely are the best anti-inflammatories, though. I wouldn't be surprised if loss of appetite is one of those effects.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cameron, tonight I would give her 10 cc (ml) and tomorrow give her 10 cc about every 3 -3 1/2 hours, next day increase it to 15 cc each feeding until you see how she is doing. I would try to work up to about 30 cc. with each feeding. Scales are needed to keep up with her weight and also monitor her crop each time before you feed her. The green poop usually means she is not eating enough.

You are doing a dandy rehab job with this little guy.

Maggie


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Ok thanks Reti and Pidgey

Just so I have this right though,

A gradual increase to two feedings of 30-35 mls daily on top of the 1/2 tablespoon of seed. Is that what you mean? Thanks,

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

A gradual increase to two feedings of 30-35 mls daily on top of the 1/2 tablespoon of seed. Is that what you mean? Thanks,

Cameron[/QUOTE]

Yep, you got it.
And if you have a scale, that would be great. 

Pidgey, prednisone/cortisone actually increases the appetite. One of it's side effects if weight gain, due to excessive eating and redistribution of fat. It also has a catabolic effect on protein, so there is muscle waste. But the end result is always weight gain.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Reti and Maggie,

The extra tips on feeding are very much appreciated. 

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It might be better to think of it in percentages of the bird's weight. I say that because I have some smaller birds that will throw up if you feed them that much at a time regardless of health. When they're still squeakers, you usually feed them 10 to 15% of their body weight in hydrated formula per meal. I usually only feed them 3 times a day at that point. When they get older, you can slacken off some or you might end up with a fat pigeon.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


Now, the 'tube' you are useing, is the inside diameter in fact quite small? so that only water dissolved fine 'powder' would pass?

Too, what are you feeding her, what is your formula made of..?

Now, if you get some decently fresh and not all dried out Anise and Fennel Seeds, you can mildly scrub them between your palms to release a little of their Oil, and then add them to the top of her Seeds...sometimes this can stimulate their interest in eating-pecking...as can pecking with them, with your hand next to them, while you use your crook'd index finger in pretend 'pecks' and also 'narrate' with things like, "Oh! Now these are sure some NICE Seeds here...Hmmmm!...oh-yea, these are good...I'm gunna have some of these little tan ones...! " and stuff like that...

If she is comfortable to do this in a tabletop with you, just lay a light colored Towell down for the occasion.

If you have her Seed Bowl in your hand, so she sees you have it, and sit down so she can see you with it, and pretend you are eating out of it, hamming it up a little, saying "Mmmm! smack-smack...Mmmm! These are pretty good!" and so on, like you are eating directly out of it with your mouth, you might turn to look at her and see she is quite interested! And, if you offer the Bowl to her, sotra like you just thought of it, she just might be more likely to try some...!

Usually they do not care about what we are eating, because they see it is not 'Seeds' or something they would want for themselves...


Lol...but true!


But yahhh, the 'bright green' is usually a sign of not eating enough...so, also, tell me what you have been feeding her, and maybe I can make some suggestions to augment it with things which will still pass through the 'tube'...and which will help her catch up nutritionally.


Have you a scale in Grams to weigh her?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,

I was thinking of exactly what you mentioned. That is to feed three times a day, 20-25 mls per serving as I don't want to push her too hard. Meanwhile I want there to be some room left so she might be encouraged to start eating and pecking on her own again. It would be best if she did but I don't mind doing this extra feeding for her to get her over he bump.

Like you mentioned in an earlier post, she is almost totally sedentary at the moment so it is hard for me to tell how much nutrition she should actuallly be getting. I am so glad I asked about quantities and mentioned the poops.

This just seemed to come on a day after I started her on the Prednisone so perhaps that did put her off her chow. Good thing I measure the food intake or I would not have known about the decline in eating. The bird is a fully grown adult by the way, over a pound (bigger than Buddy) but I have no scale to weigh her with unfortunately.

By the way, I have found the best way to measure and recollect up the food is to put the food dish down on a pizza pan. She will throw it all around but 99% stays inside the pan. The old way was to sweep it all up but that was a pain. Just thought I would mention that to you.


Phil,

I am using Hagen's baby bird food and the Corn and Peas puree that I mentioned before. I am mixing in Vita-sol multi vitamins. It is a vitamin that comes in liquid form, mixed in a cup of water. I just draw off a couple mls from the mix in the cup and feed that to her along with the food. Also I am adding about a quarter capsule of probiotics to the syringe once a day. Hope this is OK. That is all I am doing so far. I have cut back on the ACV because I thought she was not drinking enough because she did not like the taste. She has had a small dip in her water dish though and she sure looks perkier. She growls at me at feeding time. It is a noise Buddy has never made before. At least not yet. I coo at her and she is now fairly amenable to me picking her up. No more of that panicky flapping she first did.

I have also been doing the pecking thing with her. I love that description of your's to encourage eating. I might just add that to my repoitoire and see if it helps. Anyway she notices me but so far no response. Also I have been trying different things in her food dish to try to get her interest up. Bits of crushed peanuts, brown rice, seaweed. She does have grit too but I don't know if she is touching it.

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When you tube-feed (I've done a lot of that with anorectic birds) they usually don't have much of an appetite. You sometimes have to stop and see if they get their appetite back. If they still don't have one, then you have to worry that there's something that you're missing like a sickness. In your case we don't have a hard diagnosis to this point.

Reviewing, it was early believed that the bird took a thump and then proceeded to some kind of disease including the possibility of ND. The predominant symptom has been compromised vision with the lack of response in the iris to changes of light. Early on, the bird had an interest in food and now it's backing off.

Starting to sound like a progressive disease etiology even though getting out of the weather caused a big jump in positive behavior. I'm going to have to go back and read everything now to see what I've forgotten. Okay, well, things can be complicated. When a bird isn't feeling well and you bring them into a new environment, they're often real edgy at first and want to get out in spite of not feeling well. Then they get a bit more comfortable with their surroundings and relax some. When they start getting better, they often get nervous again because they want to go home and sometimes stress their way back to a mild relapse. Therefore, it can be tough to separate the true symptoms from the emotional wave. And nobody likes being tube-fed. So, it becomes an exercise in trying to figure out what's ailing the bird. 

Another complication in your bird is going to be what's going on in that eye. If there's a glaucoma component, there might even be the progressive loss of vision as the retina deactivates. A blind bird is fine but a bird going blind has an initial response similar to going into a state of torpor. When we ship a healthy bird, it's usually in a container that lets air in but no light. The bird goes into a trance and doesn't come back out much until the box is opened and light returns. It's an automatic response. If your bird is losing its sight, then that could be part of the problem until the bird learns to just go on with things. That's a possibility that we don't want to happen but give it some consideration.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cameron, just a suggestion. We use Kaytee exact hand feeding formula and the package says you don't need to add vitamins. Also, I would just gradually increase the food amount over a period of days.

Maggie


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Maggie,

I will drop the vitamins. The feedings right now are small (15 mls) and at 3-4 hour intervals. Hope this sounds Okay

That is a perfect synopsis of events Pidgey. I have been feeling like a yo-yo after reading up on one thing and then on another, watching symptoms evolve and trying to keep up with the changes while trying to figure out what the problem might be. Your last post gives me some hope though.

Right now I am doing what I would call basic life support. Food, water, warmth, medication and company. You have all been terrific in helping me learn good basic bird care. Windy is comfortable, alert and much more relaxed than the first few days she was here. She is no longer eating anything on her own.

Yesterday, in three doses I fed her a total of 45 mls of food as was suggested. Today, she has had another 45 so far and at bedtime I will give her another 20. Poops are runny like soup today but I think that is the result of a formula / liquid diet. Last poop was more brownish and firmer. So I think this suggests she was becoming malnourished but I am rectifying this. 

I am getting a fecal done tomorrow. I don't know how it might help yet. The vet mentioned (I think) rods but I don't know what that is. I would imagine they also check for parasites and worms. Hopefully I can get results back quickly. Meantime, I could not afford blood tests so I hope the fecal will tell me what I need to know. 

The tube by the way Phil is quite narrow and will only allow liquids. Do you ever crop feed with larger tubing and seeds mixed with formula? That would be good to know. I would be interested in trying to get solids into her. Meanwhile, my thinking is to tube feed for the next two or three days and then give her a half day or more to see if she will eat on her own. this based on Pidgey's thoughts about tube feeding reducing her desire to eat on her own.

I felt a little discouraged today because outwardly she looks healthy and is a very nice bird but her not eating makes me think, as you said Pidgey, that something is progressing and I cannot control the outcome. I have not given up and she certainly is an inspiration as a determined little bird who wants to live. So I do have faith that there may still be a positive outcome. I feel I will know one way or another within the next week or so.

Windy is still isolated from Buddy, much to his chagrin. He waits outside the door and coos like mad whenever I spend time with her. Now I am positive he's a boy.

Talk to you again tomorrow. I will keep you posted on the test results when I get them.

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Cameron, 
you're doing a great job with Windy. He couldn't be in better hands.
My Jane is the same, since I am tube feeding her she won't eat anything on her own. She just sits there knowing I will pick her up, walk around with her and feed her. When she sees the tube she opens her little beak and nibbles at it. Very cute, but I will have to practice some tough love at some point.
I didn't have too many pigeons who loved to be tube fed, other than Angel everybody else hated it.

The fecal will tell you if he has worm, coccidia, if a culture is done they can find bacteria or fungus.
Blood tests are inconclusive most of the time, especially if there is only trauma involved, the blood test won't show anything.
If you have a high white blood cell count there could be infection, but if not it doesn't exclude an infections. I rarely have blood tests done unless I know what I am looking for.
Now you can run a whole battery of tests from the blood and look at the liver, kidneys etc. but that is very expensive and I wouldn't recommend at this point.

Good luck.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks so much Reti. I was feeling sort of bad today about not doing more or not doing the right things. You have cheered me up.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,

Your chow-time mix sounds good to me...but, as was mentioned above, maybe skip the additional Viatmines, as I think the Hagens has them more or less in it anyway.

This then would be the 'Hagens Breeding Mash' I take it?

This is the 'Brand of Choice' in my opinion, and I should pay hommage to our missing in action poster 'NumberNine' who initially recommended it to those of us who had not already become familiar with it's merits.

Now, as you may know, it is very important that it be mixed with perfect homogenuity and no possibility of any gooey spots or thick inclusions, as these can oddly stick to the inside side of their Crop and make bad troubles.

That, and as you likely know, to warm the 'soup' in a Cup, with the Cup in a Pan of hot Water, so it may be served, 'fed', tepid...and not to use a microwave to heat it, which could make undiscovered hot spots in it and burn their Crops.

I have had convelescents whom I had to tube-feed sometimes for weeks, then, on their own, at some point, they decide to start pecking again, and I have always felt that the experience of being tube fed, no matter how gentle or kindly one does it, no matter how one may try and make it fun for them, is part of that incentive to start pecking-again, too.

If she can watch your other Bird pecking, this will be a good thing, as they always are interested in what another Pigeon is doing.

I would doubt she has anything contageous to where a few feet seperation would be a risk worth mentioning, so long as she is not sneezing or something.

If she is a PPMV Bird, or has some odd Virus of some kind, one Mosquito will defeat anyone's best quarenteen anyway, if it can bit the one, and then matriculate to bite another.

I have some ('boiled spaghetti' kind of 'soft' ) soft 'Silicone' Catheters modified in length, fitted to syringes, for feeding various sized Birds, and my smallest ( while not a silicone kind, but instead is made from a short length of one insulating sheath from a small electrical wire with the Copper stand removed of course, then made to be blunt on one end, which ) is about .75 of a mm, OD with an ID of about the skinny end of nothing, which I had to use to feed some newly hatched and orphan Humming Birds. Had to sieve their chow too for it to pass this contraption.

My largest is about 5/32nds of an inch OD ( still an easy slide for Pigeons who while ferqal eat fallen Olives from the Olive Trees here! ) and will pass ground and sieved powdered Seeds and dried Berries, or the finer 'powder' of them after their time in my Kitchen Blender, which I tend to add to the 'Hagens'...but if I do not sieve well, it is a problem and clogs the Catheter reliably.

So, keep it 'soupy' as you are, and if she poops Watery somewhat, no matter, it is good for them sometimes to be flushing their system anyway.

I think it would be good to stay with the ACV-Water if you can, for Mixing the formula with and for drinking on it's own...

If you can get some powdered Wheat Grass Juice, and or Chlorella powder ( any health Food Store) these would be benificial to add to her 'soup'...say to the tune of half a teaspoon full to the batch for day's meals worth, and it will make the 'soup' Green...very Green in fact, but that is fine of course...

Misu is good for them also, for an ingredient of their tube-feed-meals, and itself is a Natural pro-biotic of sorts...


Till next...

Good going!

You are a joy...


Phil
Las Vegs


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The "rods" the vet mentioned are actually a species of long bacteria that may be found in a fecal smear, preferably stained. Here's a past post with link to a view through the microscope to see that very thing:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=106108&postcount=13

There is a science to counting all the different things so that you can get an idea of the general gut health but it's a lot to go into here. Suffice it to say that we don't want to see a bunch of Gram-negative rods (Bacilli: a type of bacteria that are elongated like vitamin capsules or even longer). However, in the search for other links to explain it, I found this VERY excellent webpage on the use of a microscope that makes my own attempt seem quite pitiful:

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

For all those of you who have microscopes, you need to go to this site 'cuz it's really good! Here's another that shows a picture similar to the one I took and linked in the upper link:

http://ocw.tufts.edu/courses/5/content/215767

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Amazing stuff Pidgey and Lots of good advice Phil!,

Where do I start. I am so not a scientific person.

Phil, you mentioned that you have tube fed for weeks sometimes. It never occurred to me to go that long without there being a resolution. It sounds like you had success though after a very long convalescance. So it is possible and I am encouraged. Thanks for the tips on mixing and giving feed. Tube feeding with some solids in the mix is probably not practical then. I understand the thickness of the tube but am not sure you meant not to add seed. You did say keep to the soupy mix. I might try the blender with some seed and see how it goes. Clogging aside it might be worth a try especially if it encourages eating solids again. I am thinking they must feel the difference in their crop, solids vrs formula.

You have Olive Trees down there. Lord, I wish I lived below the 49th parallel sometimes! Mind you we have Pine Cones and Saskatoon Berries so what the heck. 

I did try your finger/seed pecking idea and got a good response. She just won't eat the seeds yet though but I will keep at it. As for Buddy, he is really a sweetie, my buddy for sure and such a nice bird. I am a little paranoid about letting them be together for now. I will wait for the fecal. Also I am concerned that he is a bit tooo aggressive to be around a sick bird so I will wait a little longer. Just to be on the safe side. BTW, I havn't seen a mosquito since last August. It's -13 celsius tonight, those little guys are still sleeping in the ponds for sure, just waiting for spring!

I am curious about the Misu though so I will check it out. It sounds like a type of seaweed to me......Also no probs about adding ACV to the syringe feeding. I don't know why but that had not occurred to me before you mentioned it, I just took it out and forgot about it.


Pidgey,

A fecal smear (stained) is exactly what I am getting. No culture though, they want over a hundred dollars for that so I ruled it out for now. I will reconsider though if Windy survives and thrives to the end of the month. She is doing surprisingly well with the current regimen and is a really calm bird. You would almost think she has been handled by people before. 
Thanks for the pointers to other sites.


Reti,

God bless you and Jane. I didn't realize you were still tube feeding her until you mentioned it tonight. It has been quite some time now. I have to apologize but I have gotten so pre-occupied with my own problems that I have neglected reading everyone else's threads. What I am doing with Windy now is not tube feeding her until after 11:00 in the morning just so that I can see what will happen first. Then I measure and if no seeds are eaten I know there is still a problem. I am not sure about your system but I hope that idea is helpful for you and for Jane and she starts to eat again soon. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Camrron said:


> Amazing stuff Pidgey and Lots of good advice Phil!,
> 
> Where do I start. I am so not a scientific person.
> 
> Phil, you mentioned that you have tube fed for weeks sometimes. It never occurred to me to go that long without there being a resolution. It sounds like you had success though after a very long convalescance. So it is possible and I am encouraged.




Yes, aand I am sure others have tube-fed injured or ill adults for more than say the three weeks or so I have sometimes had to do.

Sometimes that is how it is, but in my experience it has been rare to need to do it for more than some several days.


Car wacked Pigeons may need to be fed some for a few days on end, and some PPMV Pigeons may need to be tube fed for several weeks. My PPMV girl luckily pecked from the get-go, if wildly and with star-gazing and so on, but by god, she somehow got those seeds and ate 'like a Horse' putting away a full Tea Cup of Seeds a-day...and it took her all day too, but she stayed on it through out the day.




> Thanks for the tips on mixing and giving feed. Tube feeding with some solids in the mix is probably not practical then.



Yes, not unless one has a tube with a large enough interior diameter, and, some still small enough Catheters or other will havea diameter which will work for this, and in that case one would sieve the powder one makes so it passes, and use the fine siftings of the Seed meal powder mixed with the 'Hagens' and other nice things...




> I understand the thickness of the tube but am not sure you meant not to add seed.



You could do 'Seed-Pops' too, putting whole larger type seeds into her throat directly.

Plain 'Pop-Corn' for example is a nice choice for this...as are cut-in-thirds or halves of Goji-Berries...

I have had Pigeons, who, because of injury, could not peck and feed themselves, and with some of them we just did 'Seed-Pop' three or four times-a-day, and it works very well, if a bit tedious sometimes for them and us...and one can also 'glisten' these Seeds with light coating of Cod Liver or Olive Oil, and sprinkle Vitamines and Brewer's Yeast and Chlorella and and powdered garlic on them, as well as to 'Pop' pieces of Goji Berries and so on.




> You did say keep to the soupy mix.



Yes, I think one does well to err on the side of 'soupy' in general for tube feeds...




> I might try the blender with some seed and see how it goes. Clogging aside it might be worth a try especially if it encourages eating solids again. I am thinking they must feel the difference in their crop, solids vrs formula.



Well, really, if it does clog your Tube it is a hassle then to clean it all out and begin anew, as well as you do not want to exert undue pressure to get the formula through the tube, or have it suddenly 'squirt' too much instantly if it manages to pass the clog, which could make a brief torrent that could get into the Bird's windpipe and be a serious problem.

I do not think they feel any difference in their Crops if the Seed powder is added, or that it would necessarily inspire improved interest in more solid foods...but I like to add it when I can, usually for Babys who eat from a hollow side of a Baby Nipple, because it 'is' Seeds and other nice things, and has more texture and flavor, and also tends to prevent the otherwise fine powder of the commercial formula from being too pasty and goopy or gooey.



> You have Olive Trees down there. Lord, I wish I lived below the 49th parallel sometimes! Mind you we have Pine Cones and Saskatoon Berries so what the heck.



Not indigenous, but yes, lots of them in fact...

Now, what are 'Saskatoon Berries' like?

And do the Pigeons eat them in the wild do you know?

If there are any kinds of Berries the Doves or Pigeons eat in your area, you should gather some and do Seed-Pops with them...



> I did try your finger/seed pecking idea and got a good response. She just won't eat the seeds yet though but I will keep at it. As for Buddy, he is really a sweetie, my buddy for sure and such a nice bird. I am a little paranoid about letting them be together for now.




Well, maybe not 'together' but in seperate cages, or with your convelescent in a cage, where she can see him maybe a foot away, free roveing, and watch him pecking at his Seeds...something olike a foot would be great..closer is too close and farther can be too far.




> I will wait for the fecal. Also I am concerned that he is a bit tooo aggressive to be around a sick bird so I will wait a little longer. Just to be on the safe side. BTW, I havn't seen a mosquito since last August. It's -13 celsius tonight, those little guys are still sleeping in the ponds for sure, just waiting for spring!



Oh good...and of course, it IS Winter afterall, at least in most areas!

Lol...

So, no Mosquitos for the time being...



> I am curious about the Misu though so I will check it out. It sounds like a type of seaweed to me......




No, it is a fermented Soy...used as a Soup base for various Japanese Soups, Very nutritious, has none of the liabilities some sources associate with 'raw' Soy or unferemented Soy, and has various 'friendly' bacteria in it...it is a 'live' food...

And it will dissolve in the warm ( but not too hot or it will kill the bacteria) formula mix, and, dissolved in the formula mix, and so will pass through a narrow Catheter or other tube for tube feeding...



> Also no probs about adding ACV to the syringe feeding. I don't know why but that had not occurred to me before you mentioned it, I just took it out and forgot about it.



The ACV-Water is very good in lots of ways...discourages or eliminates many unfriendly bacteria while admitting or obligeing the desireable 'friendly' ones...makes for a Happy Crop, and happy innards in general...

Counting the poops is also a good way to tell roughly how a Bird is eating or being fed...

Changing out the Cage bottom's Towell or Paper Towells also allows an easy poop-count each morning.


For an adult Pigeon, one wishes to see about fthirty-five to fourty or so poops in 24 hours...these being more or less 'Raisen' size or so...some pigeons make larger ones, and there may be fewer of them then of course...or a truely large Bird may make more or larger ones, but, that would be about what I would say is going to be going on if they are of average size, and are eating or being fed what they normally would eat when feeling well.




> Cameron



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I talked to the Veterinarian today. She really is terrific. We got the results from the gram stain and she also had a culture done. 

The results are that there is nothing to report on except for one thing.

Windy's yeast profile is way, way out of line. Like more than three times what is considered normal for a poop test. Her gut is putting out too much bad bacteria in other words. Could that be what is making her so sick or is it just a symptom of something else I wonder.

Anyway the recommendation is for more beans, veggies and fruit in her diet and less seed for the time being, plus pro-biotics. She has by the way improved considerably since I started her on the formula. A normal pigeon in every way except she is a little vision impaired and she does not eat anything on her own. I think that tonight she may have, for the first time in five days eaten about a half tablespoon of seed on her own. I feel, just insticts here, that she may be on the mend health-wise. The vision thing still has me concerned though. Looks like she will be a disabled bird even if she does survive. I have had her now for 14 days and her pupils are as dilated as on the first day but only time will tell. 

Saskatoon Berries are delicious Phil. I don't know if pigeons eat them but the bears and other domestic animals do. I don't mean bears up here are domestic by the way. I'll get you some info on them when I have a bit more time. They make amazing jam too! The berries, not the bears.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


Hmmmmm, well...the ACV-Water should knock out the Yeast I would think.

If you were to feed Fruit, make sure it is as close to something they would eat on their own, and maybe, the Saskatoon Berries might be something to try...especially if they are small, or if not small enough then just cut them into little bits I s'pose.

Goji-Berries of course are very good, and you can just cut them into halves or thirds with Scizzors to 'Seed-Pop' them.

Otherwise fresh wholesome Fruit might be hard to come by, it is here! eeeeeeesh, the produce here is so lacking in quality...so...

Maybe at a Health Food Store you can get high quality dried Sour Cherries for example, which are long known to be benificial in many ways for Bird and Man alike...

Or, the extract of them, which comes in little Bottles. This of course mixes eassily with powdered formula for small diameter 'tubes' or Catheters.

I use it for Birds sometimes ( the Sour cherry extract/syrup) , and have some extract also of Elderberries, similarly...

That, or get a little bigger 'tube' and make powders to add to the 'Hagens' which can contain dried Fruit things you have made into a powder in a Blender, some dried Fruit along with some Seeds at the same time, so the Blender has enough material to work with making powder of them together.

Be very wary of useing any dried Fruits containing sulphites, or residual sulphur of whatever kind, as the sulphites might be quite bad for Pigeons. I know they are bad for me and make me ill...

Who knows what toxic effects the Yeast might be having...

Yeasts make not only various Alcohols, (Ethyl, Methyl etc, and the Methyl is of course 'Wood Alcohol' known to badly effect the Visual Cortex and or effective use of one's 'Eyes' at any rate, ) but also Acetone and Ketones and other compounds which are quite toxic and systemically debilitating. These broadly were the 'Fusil Oils' spoke of in old 'Moonshine' lore and killed or blinded people if not removed from products of the Still, where, the objest of course, was to only keep the Ethyl Alcohol.

Sometimes people who fast get these Yeast problems and go into Ketosis ( I think it is called ) and their breath smells like 'Acetone'...

I would imagine this could effect your Bird's Vision as well as making him feel yucky in general.


Now, the ACV-Water of course should be the 'raw' Apple Cider based...and generally is said to be best at one Tablespoon of raw ACV to a Gallon of Water.

I myself tend to use one and a half Tablespoons to the Gallon when treating suspected Candida, then after five days or so I have it at the one Tbsp. to a Gallon for a while.

You can of course use this to mix their Formula with, as well as to offer for drinking...

Poor thing...!

He will be feeling better soon now I think...

Keep him warm...


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not bacteria, yeast. Yeasts are fungi which are different from bacteria:

http://www.mycolog.com/yeasts.htm

Notable disease conditions regarding fungi include Candidiasis and Aspergillosis. The medication used for fungal treatment in the alimentary canal is Nystatin which is used for humans as well. It isn't absorbed from the intestinal tract so it takes care of it from one end to the other. Drugs like Itraconazole are used for systemic fungal infections but that's usually a poor to guarded prognosis (not good).

Incidentally, fungi are usually included in most probiotic blends so it's a normal inhabitant of the intestines but is bad in overpopulation. You might see if your vet can write you an Rx for Nystatin. It's kind of hard to come by without one unless you get some like "Medistatin" from a pigeon supply house.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Supportive care.*

Cameron,

Thank you for all your time spent caring for this bird.

Have you been giving the bird any supportive care?

Garlic (Alli-Supreme) (daily) will knock out any fungus infection, along with a drop of colloidal silver in the formula. 

Probiotics are in order, as well as ACV, to promote good gut bacteria. 

These things will help without any negative results.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Fungal overgrowth is often a secondary or opportunistic infection so this could be in addition to his other problem. I was reading about Candidiasis and it's a funny thing. You've got that stuff in you all the time but it seems to go ballistic for unknown reasons at times. That's when all those hyphae start growing like mad.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, Cameron,


Too, there seems to be some basis of association between Candidiosis and occasions of protracted tube-formula-feeding of injured or ill adult Pigeons, when the formula is entirely of the powder-water mix. Or also, similarly, at times with youngsters fed such formula by whatever method.

This might be some of my underlying motive also for useing fresh ground Seeds and a little fine grit and so on when I can, to mix with the powder of the formula...imagineing that the additional roughage and fiber and so on will somehow oblige the texture of the food to be less sticky as it spends it's time in the Crop and may loose some of it's water content there also before moveing on to their Stomach.

That, and Candida seems to sometimes result from contusions or trauma which halted normal digestive or Crop funcitons, to where fermentation was begun with whatever foods staying overlong in the Crop.

The Candida can halt their whole digestive system, from one end to another sometimes, so a viscious circle is begun of the newly eaten food moveing too slowly from the Crop or staying in the Crop overlong and fermenting.

I have had exellent results treating Vet diagnosed Candida of the Crop and digestive system, ( or cases of where I made the diagnosis by impirical observation of familiar symptoms) useing only the ACV - Water, and witholding food for a few days, or giving at most some few small meals maybe. Then increasing slightly the meal's size or frequency, to where, in about a week it seems, the Bird is feeling better again, and then wishes to start pecking self-feeding, and is effectively done with the Candida being a pest to them.

And, while 'Nystatin', as Pidgey mentions, is the usual prescribed Medicine for Candida, it is not always easy for someone to get, or to get in a timely way, or to get without an expensive visit to a Vet who in many cases can not see them anyway for many days of waiting in the mean time, compared to obtaining the Raw ACV at any Health Food Store ( and possibly some hipper kinds of Grocery Stores if one is in areas more sophisticated than here where I live...Los Angeles and it's environs, or San Fransicso and it's surrounds, Aspen, and so on likely have regular Grocery Stores carrying it...Las Vegas does not...Lol...)

In my experience, Pigeons with Candia loose their appetites reliably, and, require to be tube fed, but will usually drink on their own, which allows them of course to get plenty of the ACV - Water mix. And, in the ones I have had, the Crop often appears slightly inflated with Air or Gas, the food already in the Crop may take several days to evacuate and move on, and the Bird will appear a little wilted or listless and may also be sleeping more than normal or seem a little dazed.

Good luck...

Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, Nystatin IS one of those meds that you end up keeping around if you're going to do a lot of rehab. Admittedly, I didn't have any for years, though, and never noticed because it's not that often that you need it. When there's crop slowdown or stasis, it can become a problem during tube feeding and usually that's a symptom of another problem altogether.

That drug (it almost isn't since it's not systemic) can be gotten from one of the pigeon supply houses and is called "Medistatin". Inconveniently, it comes in bulk so if you're going to treat just one pigeon it's a tad on the cost-prohibitive side.

Phil, you should be able to use your microscope to check for Candida quite easily. It's a fairly simple test using a swab to take samples and do a basic "wet-mount" fecal smear. The procedure is on one of those webpages that I PM'ed you about as well as pictures of what you're looking for.

Also, in an advanced case of Candidiasis where the ingluvies (crop) has changed to the point of having the "Turkish Towel" texture, you're going to start needing the Nystatin and maybe worse. Look those search words up in the big book.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,


I got your kind message the other day, and as I was composeing a reply I got inturrupted...!

Oye...for months now, I have been working long LONG days and must keep doin so for another month and a half or so, then, m-a-y-b-e, I will have some room to start learning my Microscope...! Ohhhh, eeeeeeesh, but true...I am still horribly behind in so much, trying to make the inventory I need for a trade show I am to be in in early March, was packing to move, got maybe one tenth done on that...

...new property owners were kind enough to hire me to re-engineer and construct a New Roof ( was flat, now 1/3 of an inch to the Foot pitch over 32 feet of rainshed over a hundred something feet of long) on this crappy old building, and I was into it and getting it all done, lots of Timber! - when, 95 percent through I got nailed by some code-enforcement schmuck for no 'permit' since this is a Commercial location and all, so, then another deteur into making the technical the various elevations and details of the 'as-built' and the 'wish to do built' engineering drawings, bringing them to a Consulting Engineer for him to brood on then bless and stamp, then, finding an amenible General 'Licenced' Contractor to walk that stuff to downtown to pull the permit, and...


...too much going on for this poor boy's poor punkin head...! I hardly even do the dishes anymore! I just grab one off the top, wash it, and go on from there...


But...'but'...( I tell myself, ) after my 'Show' ( which takes roughly 400 hours to prepare and make the inventory, and I got a late start too, so got to do the 400 in six weeks while still doing other stuff ) and after a few catch-up loose ends of Job things that are on holding patterns till then, ( like this Roof, ) I will do the BIG packing and sorting and crateing rituals toward the big move, and, to generally clean up here, and between then and when I move, have a nice triage area with a dedicated table and organized on-the-shelf supplies and it's own Refridgerator, and my little 'Lab' area on a dedicated Table and so on, my Reference Books and File Cabinet of folders of images and notes and print-outs and references and so on...and...by gosh, 'then'...we can continue that long ago conversation on..."The Use of the Microscope"..!

Lol...

That or I could just grab the darned thing and have a peek at some poo or at a Crop swab and start studying...

...oh sigh...

I feel tired now, just thinking about all the stuff there is to do...!

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Need to make sure all supplies used for feeds are completely clean, and not contaminated with yeast and other critters'also.
Daryl


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hey Phil,

Your'e doing a trade show? Not about pigeons but on your work I think. Can't believe how much time you have dedicated to this site with all that is going on for you. God Bless, you are such an asset to all of us here you know. And you are trying to move in the middle of all this to boot!

I tried out your idea tonight about putting Windy with Buddy to see what good results might come. I have to tell you right here and now that you are incredibly smart about pigeons and so intuitive. I am astounded at what has been happening. They have just hit it off like two peas in a pod and the communication between them...who could get any sleep with these two talking to each other. This is the most I have ever heard from Windy at one sitting and she is really talking up a storm! Guess what else. She is pecking at her seeds right along with Buddy just like you mentioned she might. Still, she spits most out but it is progress. Seems she is a real social bird who just needed some good company after all.

I have a cage rigged up now to keep them separate. It is just galvanized hardware wire in a box shape with a cardboard roof but it does the trick and puts my mind at ease about any possible transmission of disease. 

I have read all your posts and those from Pidgey and Treesa very carefully. It is so much information that I can't hardly absorb it all at one time. I will try to respond bit by bit so don't be offended if I didn't catch it all Okay you guys.

After all that has been said and discussed I still don't really know what caused Windy to end up sick in the first place. I don't know why she isn't eating on her own yet but I am willing to try whatever will not cause her any harm. She is a lovely bird. So gentle in disposition and such a fighter. As I speak she is with Buddy pecking away at the seeds I left her and seemingly enjoying herself. She does not act ill in any way anymore but I know if I was not feeding her she would not survive. She no longer does the statue thing but is rather quite alert and attentive. Her strength has returned with the nutritional supplement she gets and she has been on several flights around the apartment now without any mishap. 

I will continue putting the ACV into the tube feeding mix. But how much for a bird in this situation. I was using only a mild dilute concentration based on earlier readings...should it now be something stronger. Probiotics will also continue. The vet suggested I go so far as to withdraw all seeds and only offer the Peas/beans/corn/sprouts/veggies/fruit diet to battle the yeast along with adding the pro-biotics. I have really appreciated all your comments so far Pidgey, especially about the Nystatin.

I actually took Nystatin myself once when I had a gut candidiasis yeast outbreak I mentioned esewhere but had completely forgotten about it until your mention. I will find some and use it as you suggested. About my mention of bacteria Pidgey, the words themselves in context don't make sense unless you hear the whole story behind my logic of how bad bacteria bring about and cause yeast outbreaks but I am tired now and don't want to look stupid so I will go into that another day. You already know I am not such a scientific person. I really should have paid more attention in high school. I appreciate your note though that there is differences and I knew already but didn't unfortunately elaborate my thoughts clearly all the way through. By the way, I can get human grade Nystatin, is that Okay instead of Medistatin? What amounts if it is OK. Thanks. 


Treesa,

Thank you so much for your support. I have read about the colloidal silver so many times before but dismissed it for who knows what reason. Seems that when it matters then we get interested and take it seriously. Does it help to eliminate yeast? Is it actually a metal in suspension. I am asking because I feel a little unsure about it's application and have never actually used it even though I intended to once. Also, I am not sure what you meant about giving "supportive care". I love these birds and do what I can and whatever is necessary for their well being. Is that what you meant. I want to give you an answer but am not certain about your meaning. Oh, also I can give garlic. I have cloves so imagine I would have to crush them and mix with water if that is OK.

By the way you guys I have lots of photos now but for some reason they are in black and white on my new computer because the video card is gone haywire. I will send them E-mail to Brad who has kindly said he would again help me post some pics. I really don't want to bother him right now though so if he is busy I will try another way to post Windy and Buddy.

Candidiasis is indeed a funny thing Pidgey. I was infested with the stuff in my gut and still don't really know how I got it. The problem went on for several years until my mother intervened to help me out with some good intervention and common sense. I was very depressed at the time though as a result. It was as I recall systemic by the time I started getting treatment and my diet for over a year was about as severe as any you can imagine until I eliminated it. No refined sugars, yeasts or white breads of any kind allowed. Instead, unleavened bread like matza, Ricotta cheese and only certain fruits and vegetables allowed. I got used to it. I got better too but in that period of time before I got better I really thought I was dying. You cannot imagine unless you have had it.

Phil,

About your mention of Candida and tube feeding. Perhaps I am breaking the rules but I will tell you what I am doing. I know the formula package says not to add or subtract from their very specific instructions on feeding but I have been adding peas and corn puree (baby food) to the mix. About 30% baby food each day to my formula for roughage but also so that Windy has some real pure (human grade) food in her diet everyday. Like you I am concerned that there is enough liquid in the mix to not cause any crop problems. The Hagen's baby formula I use still seems too much like wet cement even at the 4 to 1 ratio they recommend so the addition of fibre in the form of pureed veggies is good in my mind.

Especiallly, I am worried about your comments about food not evacuating from the crop because that is exactly what I thought was happening on two occasions now. I am only just now learning about checking crops. All seemed Okay until day before yesterday. Then the crop still seemed too full even after 4 hours had passed so I did not feed more (feeling insecure and not wanting to cause damage) I am feeding no more than 15 mls, max 20, per serving about four times a day. Total in the range of 60-70 Mls daily. I was wanting to withhold food at this point though anyway to see if she would be encouraged to eat some on her own if left till late afternoon. Lol! What to do next.

Still looking for a good Microscope Pidgey. It is almost no use without your thoughtful advice though. That's all for tonight, almost time for bed I think. I would like to also see those pages on wet-mounting fecal swabs for future ref. if it is Okay with you Pidgey. I think I already gave you my E-mail address. I will start a new thread tomorrow. This one has gotten to be too long I think. It will be called "Windy Update". Night All.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


Well, thankfully, usually , most of the time, my Work is here in my Workshop, but sometimes ( off and on now for the past few weeks ) I am on Carpentry jobs out of here too. I usually work what most folks would call 'double shifts' all tolled.


Oye, lots of points there in your missive...!


Hmmmm...well, keep a good eye on that Crop...if it is not emptying decently, and if the poops are not adding up right, then maybe with-hold the food for a few days, and just give the ACV-Water ( one and a half Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water) and see what shakes from there.


Your Bird might have got some odd Virus which effected their digestion and also made them feel yucky...they might have had some scare or emotional trauma known only to them, which effected their digestion and Crop emptying...and...either way, developed some order of Candidiosis as a consequence...if they are pecking now, i will guess it is a relatively mild case or of medium severity, since usually they can feel so poorly with it they will not eat at all even among their peers or fellows.

But for me, when I have had a suspected or definite Candida Pigeon, I have held back the chow and just did the ACV-Water for three days or so, then either resumed Tube feeds, or started them if they were not previously happenning, or noted them to have wished to start pecking again which made it all a lot easier on everyone of course...

I am sure Candida can in itself make for a chemical based depression which could be attribtued to psycholigcal factors if one did not know it was the culprit, or, a depression could effect the flaura/fauna of the digestive sytem ( dorectly or indirectly from changes of diet and hydration or as may be, ) and so on also, but the psychological factors will adjust 'to' the viscerotonic-endemic depression in sympathy to it, so a psychiatrist or psychologist would maybe miss something like this, or, usually do, and, even chronic, sub-clinical dehydration for that matter, can make depression and dark feelings of doom or futility or lack of focus, which is very common...



Anyway, glad to hear that some social-time energy things have inspired her/him to wish to start pecking.

I think if it was me, from what you describe, I would let her/him peck and eat now...but with small to moderate quantities of Seeds at any one time, to ensure they do not eat too much at any one time...say, maybe 35 mL over a day...small Seeds so they can pass easy into their stomach if there is swelling of their duodenum or whatever their version of such is...and...keep an eye on their Crop and poop-count...fresh paper towells in the cage bottom each morning after poop-count.

Provide them with the ACV-Water for the next ten days or so...while...

Lightly glistening their Seeds with Olive Oil and thence sticking to them, some powdered Vitamines/Minerals ('Nekton-T' is the one I use) and maybe some powdered Garlic or fresh finely minced garlic if they will eat it...and...

See how it goes.

If you can get some 'Nystatin' then may as well use it also, ( it is fine to use it and the ACV-Water concurrently ) which usually I think would be put into the Crop directly...and, maybe, make it between meals at that.

Now too, sometimes ( and I have had Pigeons with this situation, ) there can be a foreign body of some kind which the Bird inadvertantly or impetuously ate, which remains in their Crop. This can do several things, and Candida is one of them.

If you can find an occasion where their Crop is "empty"...see if you can feel with your finger tips along the bottom and sides of it, or on all parts of it, to determine if you can feel anything there like some odd little lump or longish thing or jagged shape or whatever. You can genlty feel it also by pinching it sort of between your thumb and index finger tips. You can hold the Bird with it's back against your chest to do this. Wings folded and legs dangleing if possible! Those 'Legs' can sure push otherwise...Lol...!

Keep en eye peeled also for signs of any 'yellow' in their poops...and let us know if you should see any.

I doubt you will, but worth being advised about...

Till next...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thank-you Phil,

Eyes more open now and I will check as you advised. Must say my confidence in dealing with these two birds of mine has gone up a lot over the last few days. A steeper learning curve than I expected for sure but it is all worth it to me. Thank-you again. I think your advice is tremendous, Pidgeys too. Both you guys have been a great support to me. You get a big pat on the back from me and I hope you can accept that in just the way I wrote it. It's from my heart you guys. Thanks again,

Cameron


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