# Does RR express short down?



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Does RR express short down? If the squab i have turns out to be a RR then i guess the answer would be yes. I guess im just impatient and curious. One of the squabs i got off my RR mottle cock and brander bronze hen is short down. Wondering if i should be expecting dilute or not. Someone should know the answer.

Here the bird is 6 days old.









2 days old


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I understood it was only dilute, extreme dilute and almond that cause short down with extreme dilutes being almost balled. Any chance of Almond? If not looks like you have yourself a wee dilute hen, Unless ofcourse both parents are carrying dilute meaning it could be either sex.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I was going off of this

http://mumtazticloft.com/a_LookingAtBabyPigeonsForInformation.asp



> On page 40 of Dr. W. F. Hollanders book; entitled, "Origins and Excursions in Pigeon Genetics", he states: "At first the dilution factor was considered the only cause of the short-down condition, but as other color factors were studied it became clear that 'd' had no monopoly. Short down is typical in squabs of the almond, homozygous faded, faded brown, albino, pink-eyed dilute, and perhaps some other color classes. White and albino ringneck doves are similarly short-downed. Also lethal-polydactyl (py) and homozygous silky squabs are short-downed,...".


The site owner also said this, so I need to check the bill on my maybe brander bronze. Seemed horn I thought, I'll post it up tomorrow


> Some mutant types such as brown and recessive red have a reddish bill ring on a light bill.* Ash-reds often have a horn or brownish-black bill pigmentation.* Brander bronze or kite display blackish-chocolate coloration on their bills and feet. Recessive white and reduced squabs completely lack a bill ring and display a pale-flesh bill and feet.* Almond and faded squabs may or may not have totally pale-flesh bills depending on the birds genetic makeup (genotype) and sometimes appear similar to albinos.


He does make note of RR bills and doesn't say anything about there down so I assume it's normal, I missed that paragraph last time. Hens can't be het dilute only cock can, so it would have to be an hen. So if what is written is correct, people say RR x Brander bronze = 50% chance of either. I don't think that is sex linked. Maybe I got a sulphur (dilute brander bronze) I have never seen one before I wonder why?


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

when my rollers had their dilute, it was more balled then this one


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> I was going off of this
> 
> http://mumtazticloft.com/a_LookingAtBabyPigeonsForInformation.asp
> 
> ...


Yup your right, Don't know what I was thinking there, Obviously I wasn't thinking much at all. RR and Brander bronze are not sex linked, you are right.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Hmm.. Will have to wait and see i guess. Been working on taming my birds from this stock on. Kinda would like tamer bird so ive been holding them for acouple mins each day. I was look at the bird today and saw it had a center pink eye... i wonder... The nest mates middle of the eye is a dark bluish color. Probably just going to much into nothing, but always good to take notes.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> Hmm.. Will have to wait and see i guess. Been working on taming my birds from this stock on. Kinda would like tamer bird so ive been holding them for acouple mins each day. I was look at the bird today and saw it had a center pink eye... i wonder... The nest mates middle of the eye is a dark bluish color. Probably just going to much into nothing, but always good to take notes.


For sure, Good to share what you have noted aswell, we are so limited in NZ On colours and breeds and Im learning so much from seeing real life examples of what I have been researching.

Any threads a good thread in my opinion


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Print Tippler said:


> Hmm.. Will have to wait and see i guess. Been working on taming my birds from this stock on. Kinda would like tamer bird so ive been holding them for acouple mins each day. I was look at the bird today and saw it had a center pink eye... i wonder... The nest mates middle of the eye is a dark bluish color. Probably just going to much into nothing, but always good to take notes.


My brown roller babies have pink as you can see from this photo.



http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22109&stc=1&d=1323292495


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah i tried taking a picture, i think just a false pearl eye like browns have. I have all 3 expressions of pearl eye in loft. The most common are the false pearl and the firey pearl, acouple whites


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

eh, im pretty sure just false pearl, but ill post it anyways. i looked back at the photo and you can see it










*EDIT:* I spoke with a friend who breeds on recessive yellow and recessive red and told me the recessive red do have normal down. So i do indeed have a dilute. Definetly nice, because i only have one recessive yellow right now, so either yellow or brander sulphur. Ill take either one. Will have to breed these birds till i get a sulphur now.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

updates

recessive yellow




















Blue t pattern showing bronze and is split for recessive red. Will be interesting to see how this one turns out. The picture didnt show how bronze the chest is already, and there is already one iridescence feather on him


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

That's pretty cool, Love the yellow. It will be interesting to see if the bronze fades out or gets stonger. From what I understand you should be able to use the bronze bird to enhance your reds and yellows. Is this something you have tried in the past?, I know it works well on Lukes frillbacks and my red grizzle racers carry kite and are a very nice rich red too.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

just got into pigeons this February. I haven't breed any of my reds. All i bred were prints and a pair of mottles. Along with some archangels and a breed in development but i have since gotten rid of those. But yes, hopefully this yellow inherited bronze and will come out better. My birds come from 4-5 different lofts, and i have gotten reds from each one, so i have a good verity of phenotypes. Hopefully the bronze comes out good. Doesnt look grizzled, then it would be a good tort like the hen. Were see what happens next round. Also looking for a dilute tort. Ill post pictures as the birds moults


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> *just got into pigeons this February*. I haven't breed any of my reds. All i bred were prints and a pair of mottles. Along with some archangels and a breed in development but i have since gotten rid of those. But yes, hopefully this yellow inherited bronze and will come out better. My birds come from 4-5 different lofts, and i have gotten reds from each one, so i have a good verity of phenotypes. Hopefully the bronze comes out good. Doesnt look grizzled, then it would be a good tort like the hen. Were see what happens next round. Also looking for a dilute tort. Ill post pictures as the birds moults


Wow - you really know your stuff considering


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

haha not really. Im just like you. I've just read the sites talking about genetics a couple times. Spoken to becky a lot on things and read old threads and do google searches. Been able to visit many lofts and see a lot of different birds and there phenotypes. I like to know whats going on with my birds, why things are so with them and what would happen if i breed them. I don't like a mystery.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> haha not really. Im just like you. I've just read the sites talking about genetics a couple times. Spoken to becky a lot on things and read old threads and do google searches. Been able to visit many lofts and see a lot of different birds and there phenotypes. I like to know whats going on with my birds, why things are so with them and what would happen if i breed them. I don't like a mystery.



I agree, I am a perfectionist and have struggled with pigeons as there is no such thing as perfect, you can always improve, I've managed to deal with this by learning about whats going on in the background and planning my next steps. Like you say - I don't like mystery either


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

are dilute squab also short down?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

all dilutes are short down, that is what mine is, a dilute recessive red. Almonds are also short down. Ressesive reds are not.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

then my other racer are dilute because the owner said they are short down when they are squab.

the question now are brown also short down?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

No .


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

ok thanks Print Tippler


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

The only genes influence down length noticeably, as far as I know are:

Dilute - short down
Extreme Dilute - very short down (chicks look naked)
Almond and its relatives - short down to no down depending on the allele

The only other gene that can be discerned in the nest before feathering commences is brown, which causes a pinkish eye, which is very easily distinguished once you know what it looks like.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

*update*

Hope this one comes out as a good kite.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

very nice looking youngsters 
Print

so is this a bronze the pic below. i think he is not a indigo because he have a tail bar.











and this is may crossbreed of racer and homer is he a recessive red?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Im not sure


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

APF_LOFT said:


> so is this a bronze the pic below. i think he is not a indigo because he have a tail bar.


The tail bar on this bird does look like it is washed out. So it might be an indigo. Indigo expression differs between birds and sometimes the tail bar is not completely washed out.



APF_LOFT said:


> and this is may crossbreed of racer and homer is he a recessive red?


I would say yes, an unimproved recessive red. But even in homers I've never seen such weak expression of recessive red.


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