# Sour crop? Pneumonia?



## Michy (Jul 29, 2011)

Let's see if I can keep this as uncomplicated and short as possible...

~~First, before anyone advises, I have already called the vet and am seeing him today at 4:30.~~

A couple days ago was a scorcher. Had Simon and Henri out in their outside enclosure for the day while we did our outings away from home. It rained heavy(no wind) throughout the day, but felt confident that the birds would be ok because they can seek shelter in their attached loft. We came home during a downpour and noticed that Henri was smart and was in their shelter. Dumb a** Simon....was out in the rain with his wings up and enjoying every minute of it. Regardless, we brought them in. Yesterday, all was well and normal. 

This morning, my daughter reported to me that Simon wasn't acting himself and when she tipped him upside down to check him over, fluid oozed out of his beak. 

I went out to the enclosure to check on him and sure enough, she was right. When I went up to him, he sounded fine. No raspiness and he wasn't open-beaked breathing. I turned him upside down and this foamyish liquid came out of his beak. I then put him right-side up on his perch and he stretched up and began making weird little grunt noises. 

That is when I called the vet. 

While waiting for his appointment, I went online to see if anyone else had this problem and typed in some symptoms. It led me to "Sour crop" and read that one should hold the bird upside down to relieve the crop. THEN I read that you shouldn't do that because(as I see as common sense) they can aspirate and get pneumonia. It seemed to me that when I turned him upside down, it caused distress. I also read that Sour crop has a nasty odor. There is no odor. I seperated him from Henri and put him in a cage next to her. Simon isn't upset that he isn't with her...that there is ODD and not the Simon that we know. So, he's clearly lethargic, but not to the point where he is all puffed up and not moving. I have yet to see him eat. 

Can anyone shed some light on this? Could that rain he was in made him sick? He is an indoor bird that goes out only on nice days. Could he have eaten wet seed yesterday and this made him sick?


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't have much to add but hope all works out. The birds often bathe in the rain and I have seen the ferals sit out on wires on relatively cold days in the rain. Hopefully you have a good avian vet and keep him warm in the meantime until you can get him there.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Wet seed is one probable reason for sour crop.. 
Treatment involves antifungal (like nystatin), antibiotic (like baytril) and canker medication. The antifungal and antibiotic should not be given together, atleast a few hours apart. The antifungal is best given to an empty crop, before feeding..
Since you are taking him to a vet, ideally the vet should be able to flush the crop.
The sooner the crop gets emptied and returns to normal functioning, the better the chances of survival.
Do not feed until the crop has emptied, and start with few seeds, and increase the amount gradually.


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## Michy (Jul 29, 2011)

Thank you so much for your input!! I also discovered upon inspection that Simon has a lump in his crop. I didn't palpate it much because I don't want to make the situation worse before the vet sees him. I am now suspecting he has an impacted crop? Maybe? Possibly? Time to pack up and make the 1 hour drive!!! I will update when we return.

Thanks again!


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## Michy (Jul 29, 2011)

I have returned with Simon from the vet. The one thing that I was absolutely sure that he DID NOT have ended up being what he has. Canker!!! I was mortified. I was embarrassed. I was totally freaking flabbergasted!! 

I was ready to put up a fight with doc on his diagnosis because we change their water twice a day sterlize dishes once a week, and their cage is NEVER dirty. NEVER!! How can he possibly have...gasp...canker?!? Doc eased my mind and educated me on canker. With pics and diagrams too!! Darn I'm special!! Now maybe I read wrong, but in the past, upon reading all the posts on here and info on other pages, I was given the opinion that filthy living conditions "caused" canker. Nope. That only spreads it. Today I learned that the majority of pigeons and doves(80%) have and live with canker. Most get it from their parents' crop milk and live a happy and healthy life. It's when something stressful happens that the canker gets out of control and form lesions. Mr. Vet told me that it looks like he had it for a good couple weeks. Interesting. The only "stressful" thing that I can think of is that the kiddo hasn't been covering them up at night for the past few weeks. I am wondering if not having solid dark at night (their room is off from the hallway that remains lit all night) could actually cause it. <scratching head>

Anyway..Other than that, Simon is fine. Doc palpated his crop(no lump) and stuck a super duper long swab down his throat and did a smear of his crop. Oh what a joyous visit!! Simon did "puke" seed in his carrier on the way to the vet (so did Henri who went along for moral support). Maybe that's the lump I felt? So Simple Simon is on his meds for 2 weeks and I was assured he will be back to dancing, cooing and driving us crazy in no time. 

Thank you Woodnative and Kunju for chiming in. Funny how our silly little birds will cause us to drive 50 miles and blow over $100 bucks. Family is family I supposed. Excuse me now while I now make an appointment with my own personal doc to have my head examined!!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Glad Simon is going to be alright! You did the right thing, because time is of essence in case of sour crop....
The lump could have been seed, or canker. You never know what makes them stressed...perhaps the rain or cold...
I think you can treat Henri too for canker. Especially since you said he puked on the way.


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## Michy (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks! Henri is being treated as well. I didn't mention it because it was Simon I was concerned over, but yes, doc felt she should be treated with the metronidazole as well for the 2 weeks. 

I was talking with a friend last night about stress triggers. Never realized that they can be so fragile. Now I'm wondering if I caused it by putting a scent diffuser(bottle of scented oil with sticks that work like wicks) in their room. I never used aerosol air freshener in their room but felt the diffuser would be harmless. Maybe not. <smacking forehead>


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When I read the symptoms in the beginning of your post, I figured probably canker. The wet seeds wouldn't have bothered him. The seeds would have had to be there for more than that one day that they were outside. It takes time for wet seed to grow mold that would make the bird sick. Those were seeds that had just gotten wet that day, so they were safe. Most pigeons do carry trichomonads and when stressed, the trich levels go up. That is what causes canker. Dirty conditions don't cause it, but when birds share water and feed, it can spread that way. Don't think the rain bothered them either. They love that, and he could have gotten out of it if he didn't like it. But he was enjoying it. When the weather changes from cool to hot, some birds do get stressed and wind up with canker. Some people treat their birds in springtime, to knock down the trich to try and prevent that happening. Glad they are being treated and will soon be again in good health again.


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## Michy (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks for the input, Jay3. Here in Western NY, temperatures can be in the 60's one day and 90's the next. That is exactly what it has been like for the past month. So should I just treat them every spring as well? Is there a risk of them developing a tolerance to the meds? One other thing that I wanted to know is why did the fluid come out of his beak when upside down? Is this a symptom of canker? The doc didn't tip him upside down to check and didn't tell me to do anything about it. He just palpated the crop, told me there is no lump, then stuck a long q-tip thingy down his throat and into his crop for that smear. 

Simon is getting close to being his old self again. Started cooing(lucky us!), but not his obsessive dancing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Many treat their birds for canker spring and fall. That isn't too often. I have an Indian fan who comes down with it when the weather starts doing exactly what your weather is doing in the springtime. So I need to stay on top of that and treat him at the beginning of it. With canker they usually drink a lot of water. Often times the crop fills with water, and if you pick them up, just that small amount of pressure on the crop, and it just comes back up and pours out of them. It's really scary when you don't expect it. You are better off having a second canker med, and every couple of times, you can switch to the other med so the trich don't build an immunity to the drug. Canker is one of the most common ailments in pigeons. Nothing you did. People do miss it a lot though. 
I think it wouldn't hurt to treat them for the 7 days in spring when the weather starts to suddenly get hot like that. Let us know how they do. They have the whole nice summer ahead of them to enjoy, and occasionally letting them enjoy the summer rain is a good thing.


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## Michy (Jul 29, 2011)

That eases my mind so much more knowing that the fluid was excess water....WHEW!! Thank you thank you thank you! I definitely will be treating them every spring. 

I'm happy the rain wasn't the cause because they really did enjoy it. Simon is now 100% himself and his poops look great( I can't believe I just said that..haha). He still has his meds to take and I still have the two separated. Would have put them together but Simon lost weight and Henri likes to chase him around in their cage quite a bit. I just want to make sure he is getting the food he needs for a little bit longer. Kinda thinking about keeping them in separate cages during the night seeing that they aren't in them long. They are quieter and almost seem happier having their own spaces at night.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so glad he's doing better. Still finish the med though. They have absolutely no idea of what they put us through. LOL.


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