# How many YBs are enough?



## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

I currently have 24 ybs. This is the number that I was shooting for and feel comfortable with. The flyers in my club are telling it's not enough, and I won't have enough when the season is over. Most of these guys have between 50 to 100 ybs. Just wondering what you guys think.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

I started with 36 last year and finished with about 11 didn't leave me enough to fly old birds. Some of my birds were quite old when i picked them up from other fliers. And i also was learning a lot and did some things I likely wouldn't do now. I think 24 may be enough but you will probably wish you started with more. 
I am in the 50 to 100 boat this year with just over 60 loft flying now.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

When I started I was told the same thing....you'll lose half so if you want to end with 20 you need 40. Seems to have held true. I think anyone who tells you they don't lose many isn't being truthful. If you train hard and race you're bound to lose some, just the nature of the game.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

At the very least, raise some late hatches and train them out to 100 miles just in case you need some birds for next year. (If you plan on flying old birds).


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## Hareloft (Jun 26, 2011)

With a smaller number you can take better care of what you have and can tell better if any are getting sick and if any are missing on a day to day basis. I try to keep my young bird team to about 40 to start with and find that about half stay. For people just starting ouI recomend less is better until you learn the ins and outs with training and the ilnesses our birds can and do bring home to the loft.


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

One thing I learned from last year you Don't have to ship 20 birds to the races every week. If that's all you want on your team you can ship 5 or 6 every week and have enough birds.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There is no right or wrong answer to that question. It all depends on how the races work in your area. When we flew with the combine, we'd lose at least half, if not more, of our birds every season. I shipped 24 the first race one season, and 4 came home. I was done before the season started.
Now, with our new "combine" I may lose 3 or 4 birds the whole season.

The most important thing is to make sure you do not overcrowd your loft. Have an amount of birds that are comfortable in the loft and that you are comfortable with taking care of. The less birds, the easier they are to take care of and keep healthy. If you lose them all, oh well. Change how you do things or get different birds. Don't breed more than you are comfortable with just because you are afraid you won't have enough. Eventually you will sort through your breeders and find the birds that can handle the races in your area and you can breed as little as you want and they will be dependable. People who raise a ton of birds because they need enough for races, usually have one or more of these problems:
- Too many hawks, so they have to raise more or for a longer breeding season to keep their loft stocked until their squeakers can get down the road
- Poor quality birds - breed a bunch in hopes they have some that can actually do what they are supposed to
- Too many breeders
- Breeding a lot in order to test out new breeders, but at some point you need to get rid of the ones who don't make the cut!
- Overcrowd every year without realizing it, so half their birds are lost right off the bat
- Keep the squeakers locked up too long and lose a ton in the beginning, usually because of a bunch of hawks

Etc etc

Or it's simply a crappy combine. Like my old one. Everyone had to breed a crap ton of birds to have anything left for OB season.


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Great responses! Thank you everyone. I wonder how often that high losses are just a self fulfilling prophesy. I know Warren had a great post regarding an experiment with a loft and found that no matter how many birds he put in he ended up with the same amount at the end of the season. 

I do want to fly OB's next spring and have sufficient birds for breeding. As someone indicated above, I am not planning on sending 20 birds to a race, maybe I'll send 6. 

If I get gifted a few more YB, I'll probably accept them, but I plan on keeping less than 30.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

I guess it all depends on how many you have in mind as the number you want to race for old birds next year. If you have 24 right now and they have not been beyond 50 miles yet, I think an estimate of 50-60% losses by the end of the race season can be expected. I was in your same position last year. I started the final 4 weeks of young bird training (already road tested) with 27. By the end of the race season I had 10 left to fly old birds, then lost 2 in the final hard training for OB races and another 2 in the races this year. The 6 survivors are tough and hanging in there, but it's tough to deal with such a small team because you don't really have the luxury of having other birds to fill in when they need a rest week, etc.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I think it was Schaerlaeckens that said "you only need one".


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> I think it was Schaerlaeckens that said "you only need one".


If only that were true 

For four years, I've raced a small team. Anywhere from one bird to twelve birds to a race. Until this year, I never raised more than 20 YBs. I could rarely win, although my birds came home in good time and often in the top 10-20%. My problem? Loft position. I'm 25 miles out on my own and the wind rarely pushes them my way. So if 90% of the birds are all flying to one central location, then my 1 or 3 or 8 birds are very, very likely to go with them until it's too late. 

I train more than the other guys. I single toss, I double toss, I train from two or three of those mythical "40-mile breaking points". In the end, I truly believe it is the draw that keeps me from doing better and the other club members have told me that all along. They always told me "fly more birds". Problem is I didn't have the room to raise more than 15-20 babies. Last year, I raised 20 and actually had 18 left to start the season. I ended the season, though, with 8.

This year I changed that. Built a new loft that will hold 40-50 babies. My goal is to ship the limit or close to it (30) every week I can. This morning for the first time I had 40 babies take to the air over my loft. It was magnificent. 

Like MaryOfExeter said, your circumstances will dictate what you need. Had my loft been closer to the rest of the flyers, I would have kept my team smaller. Raising 40 babies is much more time consuming and expensive than the 20 I raised last year. There is certainly something to be said for keeping a small team . . . if you can win.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Where I live right now I don't want to go over 40, if I lived out in the country, I'd do 60-70. But if your just starting first year I think a good number is 30.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Granny Smith said:


> I currently have 24 ybs. This is the number that I was shooting for and feel comfortable with. The flyers in my club are telling it's not enough, and I won't have enough when the season is over. Most of these guys have between 50 to 100 ybs. Just wondering what you guys think.


 How much money do you want to spend, and how many and how big of lofts do you want to have ? Does not matter how many you "should" have according to the advice you are being given, if in order to have that many you will over crowd your birds. 

I suspect that at least some of those guys which breed 50 to 100 YB's may have room for some number less then that and they over crowd, and then surprise surprise, they lose a bunch. Most likely, they are your typical fanciers who always think in terms of quantity instead of quality. They produce a bunch of crap, throw em into the races, and then hope they get some home and into the clock. Sort of like that saying of throwing some crap onto a wall and hoping some of it sticks. 

Sort of reminds me of some racers who participate in various One Loft events around the country. Send 6, 8, 12 birds to an event, then send 6, 8, 12 in the wife's name, then enter a dozen or more events and hopefully a few of them will turn up winners.

In 2003, my first year back into racing, I started the season with 14 YB's and ended the season with 13 YB's. I was in the clock every race, and so for me, that was a great 1st year. In my small club, only my loft manager enters 20 birds every week. The rest of us typically will enter a half dozen or so, and more often then not, my loft manager is not #1 in the clock. Our combine has this 3 bird clocking limit, which may explain why smaller lofts can still compete...but I digress.

For the most part, I would ignore your club buddies. Train well and hard, keep only your top performers for breeding, and in time you will beat those mob fliers in your club. In the mean time, keep what you can handle and have space for (more space is better) and have fun. They might laugh at you when they enter 20 birds, and you select only a few in top form to send, but it sure will make the victories all that much sweeter !!!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Kastle_Loft, my apologies if my previous post or this one seem to be contradictory to what you, or any one else, is saying.

The point of my previous post is that it isn't the number of birds, but the individual bird, is most important. As Mr Smith noted, the mob flyer really has no better chance of winning than anyone else. Your point is also very valid; pigeons are flock animals and the flock can/will pull birds. 

The tongue and cheek comment I quoted from Schaerlaeckens was directed at the mob, and was made after a a statement very very close to Mr Smiths last paragraph above.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Jaysen said:


> I think it was Schaerlaeckens that said "you only need one".


Nope, and if he did say that, he got it from me  That's my catch phrase at the club anyway LOL. Only takes one to win.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

People who mob fly do have a bit of an advantage in YB season simply because of the pull. Shipping the full limit every race that is a lot of birds going in the same direction. The guys out on the edges have to train hard to make sure their birds break and come in without passing the loft and having to back track. Which that happens to everyone. I have heard of some people who will ship the full limit and then take the rest of their birds (OB included) and release them maybe 20 miles from the release point about the right time for the flock to be coming over. Which to me, is cheating. But it happens. 

Anyway, let this season be an experiment to see what you have to do. We have one guy in the club who raises over 100 birds every year, used to be because he had to. Well now that OB season is over he still has like 50 birds to get rid of to make any room for next year's yearlings  And yet he continues to raise a butt load of YBs. I don't get it. He won like 5 races this past season too. If I were him I'd get rid of the crud and keep the winning birds so I wouldn't have so many to take care of!  We have another guy in the club who started with 9 OBs and has 5 or 6 left? That's pretty good! And he shipped them every week so long as they looked in good enough shape.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I am not racing this season but I bred nine young birds to use as stock birds for the up and coming season. They have all been taken down to 25 miles which is not far but they really do power home, they are in great health and all love to fly for 2 or more hours, I would feel condifent starting a race season with these nine birds, Last year I bred around 20 and they never looked as good as these or flew like these nine do. The space they have in the loft is ample for 10 birds but 20 was getting a bit crowded. I guess if you train the birds the right way you will loose less in training and should have some good birds some race season. I believe any birds that cannot make it in the ideal conditions and space are not worth it whereas overcrowding your birds could result in you loosing some of your best bloodlines due to bad health and the lose of will to get home. Who wants to race to a dusty overcrowded house, I sure would not.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Oh I totally get it Jaysen - I just wish it were true for me in my position. I would so very 
Much prefer a 20 bird team. But I haven't yet been able to find one individual bird in my loft that can overcome the draw consistently before it is too late. I've gotten lucky a few times, and come awfully close more times. 

I'll know soon enough if flying more birds will improve my results. If it doesn't, then I have other problems to look for.


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## GrLkLoft (Apr 30, 2012)

I was thinking about getting into racing, but I just have a small loft. What I take from the replies here is don't bother, go big or go home.

Bill


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

You shouldn't let the size of your loft keep you from racing. It's more important to get great birds, feed and house them properly, and maintain a good training regiment. The old saying "safety in numbers" may apply here. A person may be able to race 20 birds, but it only takes one to win.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

GrLkLoft said:


> I was thinking about getting into racing, but I just have a small loft. What I take from the replies here is don't bother, go big or go home.
> 
> Bill


 Well....isn't that a little bit like saying something like.....I was thinking about getting into golf, but after seeing the amount of time, effort and money that pros like Tiger Woods put into the sport, I could never devote that much to the game, so why bother ?


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## coldskins (Jan 24, 2011)

GrLkLoft said:


> I was thinking about getting into racing, but I just have a small loft. What I take from the replies here is don't bother, go big or go home.
> 
> Bill


You dont need numbers to race I flew 10 young birds last year and in general only shiped 3 or 4 a week. many of the old timers in my club only raise a few and send only a couple to each race one guy only shiped one bird to a race and took 1st.


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## daphilster08 (May 22, 2012)

^^ Last three posts are great! I have a small loft and about 20 YB's as well.. A bunch of really nice potential winners I tell ya  no but really put your time in to it and you will show some results on race day.. If you have pretty good bloodline


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

almondman said:


> You shouldn't let the size of your loft keep you from racing. *It's more important to get great birds*, feed and *house them properly*, and maintain *a good training regiment*. The old saying "safety in numbers" may apply here. A person may be able to race 20 birds, but it only takes one to win.


 Well....with some people in regards to sports, or for that matter any competitive endeavor, when they see the level of commitment and work to get to the top of any particular sport or for that matter career, they throw their hands up in the air and quit before they even start. Or if they do start, they whine a lot about why life is not fair or some such thing. 

Let's just stick with golf as an example for the moment. There may be those who would lament that the cost of having some custom made golf clubs would just "cost too much", and then there is that big fancy golf country club with the $40,000 entry fee, and then lessons with Tiger Woods would simply cost too much, so they simply stick to watching TV. 

As I am sure there are those contemplating getting into the pigeon game who might complain that some of the World's greatest or at least most famous racing pigeons would just "cost too much". If they see some of the $200,000+ lofts, they would be so intimidated and not enter the arena because they could never build a $200,000+ loft. And then in regards to training, they read some where that some pro's train three or four times a week, and they figure they could never do that. The number of possible excuses for one not putting their helmets on and getting into the game could be endless. 

Such players even if they make a start, may soon quit because they didn't win their combines Champion Bird, Average Speed and Champion Loft awards in their first season. Let's face it, racing pigeons is a very competitive sport, most people reading these posts will never be the best, never be a world champion. But isn't that true with most sports ? Doesn't stop those who enjoy the game, from participating and enjoying whatever sport or game they choose to enjoy at whatever level they may be at. 

One may just have to be willing to start at the Junior Varsity level, before one signs up to become pro. In regards to pigeon racing, one must realize they will never have the best pigeons, the most pigeons, the best loft, the best location, or the best this or that. And the dirty little secret is, for most of us, we will never become anything more then just plain average ! That my friends is the mathematical reality. Which for me, and most pigeon guys in my club and combine is just fine, because the object of the game, at the end of the day, is to have fun.

The great equalizer and what keeps all of us striving towards greater achievement in this sport, is the fact that even if one devotes millions of $$'s which some have, to building the greatest loft, and stocking it with the finest specimens that money can buy, and it still does not in any way insure success on race day. A dedicated fancier with a small back yard loft with a small colony of good pigeons can and has, won National events sometimes with many tens of thousands of pigeons competing. 

Before any Champion crosses any finish line in life, he must first win the event in his mind. And if he thinks he can't, then most assuredly, he will not. 
To quote Henry Ford..." Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right."


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

only takes 1 bird to win the race ,that's it..unless you have a big hawk problem like i do, a good size flock should keep them more safe


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

GrLkLoft said:


> I was thinking about getting into racing, but I just have a small loft. What I take from the replies here is don't bother, go big or go home.
> 
> Bill


Although there is safety in numbers against bop, this should not be the determining factor if you still want to race. 

You should concentrate on getting the greatest birds that your budget can afford. Be selective in your choices of breeding stock. Keep quality birds, not quantity of birds. Proper housing should be draft free, weather resistant, vermin and predator proof, and allow enough room for each bird without overcrowding them. Feed and water properly. This doesn't have to take $100,000's of thousands of dollars for either the greatest birds, or proper housing,* for your race team to succeed.* The good training regiment is whatever you yourself can handle. Obviously, this again depends on your personal budget, both financially and time wise. And you must be willing to spend whatever time it takes you to develop your birds. 

So, it really is up to you how you will succeed in the sport. My point is, do not stay away from it because you can't go big, and you think you should stay home. Even the greatest, most expensive birds and racing lofts had to start out somewhere. The lineage of the greatest racing pigeons at some point were just a glint in daddy pigeon's eye.


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## GrLkLoft (Apr 30, 2012)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....isn't that a little bit like saying
> something like.....I was thinking about getting into golf, but after seeing the amount of time, effort and money that pros like Tiger Woods put into the sport, I could never devote that much to the game, so why bother ?[/QU
> 
> 
> It's not the time, money or effort I was worried about. It's not haveing enough birds. As was stated earlier, that they would loose 50-60% of their birds in each race. If I only have 10 or 12 to start with I would only last a few races, unless I only entered a couple in each race. I don't expect to be Tiger Woods of the pigeon racing, just wanted to be competive.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....isn't that a little bit like saying
> something like.....I was thinking about getting into golf, but after seeing the amount of time, effort and money that pros like Tiger Woods put into the sport, I could never devote that much to the game, so why bother ?[/QU
> 
> 
> It's not the time, money or effort I was worried about. It's not haveing enough birds. As was stated earlier, that they would loose 50-60% of their birds in each race. If I only have 10 or 12 to start with I would only last a few races, unless I only entered a couple in each race. I don't expect to be Tiger Woods of the pigeon racing, just wanted to be competive.


And if you can only send one or two birds to a race, well so what ? What is wrong with entering just a few birds into each event ? We have club members who enter one, two or three birds all the time. I think it was 2009 or 2010 when for the first time in my recent career I entered a single bird into a club race and won 1st place against those sending 20. Last year I entered two birds into a One Loft race and won equal 1st in the long distance event. 

I will be starting this YB season with less then 30 pigeons in my small 6x12 section this year, while at the same time there are fliers in my combine that will have more then 200, and in one case maybe close to 300, about ten times the number I will start with. 

As a side note, if someone enters a race and routinely loses 50-60% then either he or the truck and liberator are screwing something up really bad. There are smash races, but those kinds of losses on a routine basis is a sure sign, in my mind at least, that the fancier is doing something terribly terribly wrong. In my mind, a fancier who typically loses, and expects to lose 50-60% in each race, needs some lessons and fast. Or else they should review what the hell is going on with their truck or trucker. Is he stopping along the way and selling a bunch to a farmers market ? Is he sitting somewhere in his truck and idling the truck and the birds are getting gassed ?

Go ahead, fly, send smaller numbers and get your feet wet, and have some fun. Just imagine the looks on their faces, when you win a race with your limited entries, of well trained and well cared for happy pigeons ! You can if think you can, and focus on quality while your loft buddies focus on numbers. You will win out often enough to win your share in time with some experience. So just go for it !!!! 

You do have one *SUPER Advantage* that your club members do not have, that you have completely over looked, "experts" like me , and the thousands of years of experience right here on this site, as we encourage you and help you all along the way. If you stumble and fall we will help pick you up, and we will be there to congratulate you and pat you on the back when things go well, while some of your local fliers may only offer a glare and a grunt. That kind of advantage is almost priceless, and has to be worth at least an extra hundred race entries.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

GrLkLoft said:


> It's not the time, money or effort I was worried about. It's not haveing enough birds. As was stated earlier, that they would loose 50-60% of their birds in each race. If I only have 10 or 12 to start with I would only last a few races, unless I only entered a couple in each race. I don't expect to be Tiger Woods of the pigeon racing, just wanted to be competive.


I didn't see any posts that talked about losing 50-60% in each race, they were talking about over the course of a race season. I don't care how few birds you have or how well trained and cared for those few birds are you are very likely to lose some birds during the races. Too many factors beyond your control. But if you do a good job managing the factors that you do have control over then you will have a good season. Healthy birds in good condition is the most important factor. But you also have to have really talented birds to work with.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt M said:


> I didn't see any posts that talked about losing 50-60% in each race, they were talking about over the course of a race season. I don't care how few birds you have or how well trained and cared for those few birds are you are very likely to lose some birds during the races. Too many factors beyond your control. But if you do a good job managing the factors that you do have control over then you will have a good season. Healthy birds in good condition is the most important factor. But you also have to have really talented birds to work with.


 If it 50-60% each season, or each race, my points I think are still about the same, except for blaming the truck driver and/or liberator. But, see post below. 



GrLkLoft said:


> It's not the time, money or effort I was worried about. It's not haveing enough birds. As was stated earlier, *that they would loose 50-60% of their birds in each race. *If I only have 10 or 12 to start with I would only last a few races, unless I only entered a couple in each race. I don't expect to be Tiger Woods of the pigeon racing, just wanted to be competive.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Back in 2005 I had a mink get in my young bird section and left me with only 4 birds, so thats all I raced with. You do not need a big team, just well trained healthy birds.
Dave


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

The only OB's I have to fly this season are yearlings. I've been a little cautious on the 400-500 mile races and only send two or three. I've enjoyed that every bit as much as sending several and have had just as much luck.


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