# group or single tossing



## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

which one is better in training young or old birds,, group tossed or single tossed? can a single toss really helps on letting the birds think for them self on a race day?cause ill be training some of my young ones soon... i obsevred this to some of friends birds in single tossing do different bloodlines fly different hiegth, specially the janseen does this bloodlines always fly soo high even a few miles from the loft?


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

The deeper the keel or the bigger the bird the more training that needs to be done. I would suggest both dont start with single tosses but I have seen the perfect combination of the both really pay off for different folks.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

I like Triple Tossing. Birds leave better an will hit other flocks at times on their way home teaching them to break, but have a few loft mates to help them that will help them to break. Always triple tossing diff. birds so they learn not to follow the same bird so much, ....... Works for me the best. I also find that pigeons with Pearl/white/Gravel Eyes usually fly higher than others no matter what strain they are. Seems sometimes help, other times low flying birds do better, depending on the weather/winds .....H


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I have some late hatches I am doing a little test on, they done two weeks of loft flying, then tossed 1/2 mile no loses, tossed 2 miles no loses going 5 miles today, all this is single tossing I will not group toss these birds. my thinking if you teach them to use there homing ability at a young age,they will use it and not follow other birds home. they will come home faster being along. so for no loses,


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Single tossing will teach them to home on their own, but it will not teach them to race. Tossing in groups of three to five can help teach them to race. As Happy said in an earlier post, always toss different birds together. If you always toss the same three birds together you will get one leader and two followers. Also train them in large groups and release with other flyers to teach them to break from the flock.

Short story on single tossing. Back in the day I used to single toss my birds from my job about 20 miles from home. I would do this two or three times a week. Every fifteen, twenty minutes I'd slip out back and release another bird. One day when I released a bird as I watched it take off, I saw the white grizzle I had released twenty minutes earlier join up with it and head home. This bird had learned to just hang around and wait for the next bird to be released. From that day on the grizzle was always the last bird released. To that point this grizzle had never been on the first page of the race sheet. It was a follower. I held it from the next race and continued the single tosses, with this bird being the last one released. By its next race it had five of these tosses. Not only did it make the first page on that race sheet, but it came in third in the club and brought three other birds home with it.

You can teach them many things in your training. If you teach them to follow they will follow. If you only single toss them, they will learn to think on their own, but only to home not to race home. You must train them in every way possible to prepare them for the things they will encounter and need to overcome in the races. This is how you train winners, not just homers.

Mark


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

you guys have some very interesting comments,thanks!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*TOSSER and TRAPPER*

Hi Bloodline 365, The first thing is how many birds are you talking about. When single tossing one has to wait at least 5 minutes between birds some times longer as some birds will fly around the release area trying to figure out which way to go.Now if you are training 50 birds and you have to wait 5 minutes between birds the total time that you spend single tossing comes to over 4 HOURS also if you don't have someone at the loft to make sure that all birds trap in you will have some that will bum around this could cost you on race day. Single tossing is time consuming and it should be done with two people the tosser and the trapper. .GEORGE


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

george simon said:


> Hi Bloodline 365, The first thing is how many birds are you talking about. When single tossing one has to wait at least 5 minutes between birds some times longer as some birds will fly around the release area trying to figure out which way to go.Now if you are training 50 birds and you have to wait 5 minutes between birds the total time that you spend single tossing comes to over 4 HOURS also if you don't have someone at the loft to make sure that all birds trap in you will have some that will bum around this could cost you on race day. Single tossing is time consuming and it should be done with two people the tosser and the trapper. .GEORGE


thanks for the hint, yeah it takes time, i have just about ten birds all of them are young barely flown,i group tossed them today for about five miles it went pretty good maybe tommorow i will single tossed them at the same spot,mann im soo worried when i fly my birds coz theirs alot of hawks where i lived and their alot of stray pigeon too specailly in the morning but i havent lost any birds yet, and hope never well...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I had about the same amount of birds ready to toss as you do now.
What I like to do is toss at the same location 3 times.
First time as a whole group, 2nd time as smaller separate groups (like in your case, two groups of five), then the 3rd all separate. First and second isn't much of a difference, but it just changes it up a little bit. Personally, I wouldn't want to do individual tosses on just their second time at one spot. But I guess if they did okay....Well....Let's just say, if it works, it works. Some people can toss their birds 10 and 20 miles very early, while others like to start off at just a single mile. It all just depends on the quality of the birds, the surrounding environment, weather conditions, and your own personal training and care. It's all different for different people. Do what feels right, you know? I actually let my birds go individually today. My young ones didn't do too hot, but I don't blame them as this was their first toss like this. Most circled and landed in trees, and the others rocketed towards home, only to be stopped by another one pulling the flock in a different direction. We didn't do it right really...but I couldn't wait all day. I think their lack of exercise lately (us not getting home til after dark and rain caused that) probably had something to do with them taking their time. Tomorrow we're going to do it again, and we'll actually have enough time to do it right.


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

the trick to doing this is use all 3 methods together.group toss your birds,group toss them with others birds and toss them in small groups,and single toss.this has worked well for me for as long as i have been racing pigeons.i do believe in single tossing,but not by itself.someone early in this thread said you must convince them to race.this is true,and you can only do this by tossing with other fanciers birds,and they will learn to "break" for home.
also,they have to be highly motivated to come home fast.


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

For me I do a group and single toss too. On my group toss i tend to mix the birds a little. Yesterday I did a single toss of my youngest bird which was about 15 miles away from home but he never made it back. I should have tossed him along with the group but i felt it was too far for him. I tossed the group approximately 10 miles further and they had to go over a mountain or go around it which will take longer. Still hoping that he makes it back.

Here's his pic... i named him BOO.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Best of luck on that little guy making it back. Maybe do some tosses in the area you released him. Maybe he will see the others and follow them, if he is close by.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Grim said:


> Best of luck on that little guy making it back. Maybe do some tosses in the area you released him. Maybe he will see the others and follow them, if he is close by.


hey thats really good idea, but sometimes it works!! it did for me once, one time i single toss my young ones and i came home and found out two are missing,what i did i went back to that same spot brougth some old birds and i tossed a few birds as high as i could to get some attention and then i saw two birds flying the same colors of what i have missing and luckily it was them and then i release some of the birds left and they circle once and went home straight..  and as long as your birds is not injured or eaten by the hawks or get cougth he will find a way home, cause i have one that i let out first flight, he stand on the trap door for ten minute then flew straigth up to the sky and circling for five minutes then gone and gone for three days and one day afternoon it came home, so skinny that havent been eaten for days... just be hopefull and trust your bird that one day he will comeback... and specially do not under estimate the power of the young minds you never know!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

This is an excellent thread. It's really interesting learning all the different things birds need to know to win races!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

As you get your birds out to the 50 mile toss, you will see the birds breaking away from each other on there own. Yeas at times the do manage to stay together. Then in the races with the group it changes over the race course. Birds split off. The followers people are talking about soon get left behind and either make it home on there own Or get lost. It happens every year. Single tossing the birds is really just a person thing. Small group tosses work as well and full team tosses just as well. You are mainly just getting the birds in shape to race, then increasing the desire to get home. The drag concept is both true and false. The better birds get home as fast as they can. Tossing is the road work for the fight.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

re lee said:


> As you get your birds out to the 50 mile toss, you will see the birds breaking away from each other on there own. Yeas at times the do manage to stay together. Then in the races with the group it changes over the race course. Birds split off. The followers people are talking about soon get left behind and either make it home on there own Or get lost. It happens every year. Single tossing the birds is really just a person thing. Small group tosses work as well and full team tosses just as well. You are mainly just getting the birds in shape to race, then increasing the desire to get home. The drag concept is both true and false. The better birds get home as fast as they can. Tossing is the road work for the fight.


Congrats on your 1900 post.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Matt D. said:


> Congrats on your 1900 post.


 No one ever pay any attention to MY posts when I hit 4000, 5000, and 6000.............. *J/K*


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> No one ever pay any attention to MY posts when I hit 4000, 5000, and 6000.............. *J/K*


FINE! YOU'D BETTER WATCH OUT WHEN YOU HIT 7000 POSTS!


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> No one ever pay any attention to MY posts when I hit 4000, 5000, and 6000.............. *J/K*


Congratulations Lovebirds on 6108 post  lol


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Matt D. said:


> FINE! YOU'D BETTER WATCH OUT WHEN YOU HIT 7000 POSTS!







zimmzimm3 said:


> Congratulations Lovebirds on 6108 post  lol


LOL........you guys are a riot........


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

Grim said:


> Best of luck on that little guy making it back. Maybe do some tosses in the area you released him. Maybe he will see the others and follow them, if he is close by.





bloodlines_365 said:


> hey thats really good idea, but sometimes it works!! it did for me once, one time i single toss my young ones and i came home and found out two are missing,what i did i went back to that same spot brougth some old birds and i tossed a few birds as high as i could to get some attention and then i saw two birds flying the same colors of what i have missing and luckily it was them and then i release some of the birds left and they circle once and went home straight..
> 
> Just be hopefull and trust your bird that one day he will comeback... and specially do not under estimate the power of the young minds you never know!



Well it was too late to release my birds again in the area since it was 6pm by the time i got back home. I did release my pigeons again the next day but it was about 35 miles away. This time i went straight home after their release and they were all in the loft kicking back. 

Bloodline I'll have to agree with you. When I got home from work this evening i notice a pigeon on the side of my house. At first; my thought was the pigeon that has been hanging around my neighbor's house but when i went outside and checked, it was "BOO". I called him but he was reluctant to move from the roof. So i let a couple of my birds out and he flew with them. After a few minutes flight i called them in and he immediately trapped. He was so hungry that he started pecking at me for not putting the feeder down. I later checked him and he lost alot of weight.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so glad Boo is safely home! It doesn't take too long for them to lose weight when they are out and trying to fend for themselves.

Terry


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

ezemaxima said:


> Well it was too late to release my birds again in the area since it was 6pm by the time i got back home. I did release my pigeons again the next day but it was about 35 miles away. This time i went straight home after their release and they were all in the loft kicking back.
> 
> Bloodline I'll have to agree with you. When I got home from work this evening i notice a pigeon on the side of my house. At first; my thought was the pigeon that has been hanging around my neighbor's house but when i went outside and checked, it was "BOO". I called him but he was reluctant to move from the roof. So i let a couple of my birds out and he flew with them. After a few minutes flight i called them in and he immediately trapped. He was so hungry that he started pecking at me for not putting the feeder down. I later checked him and he lost alot of weight.


thats really good to hear!!!


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Matt D. said:


> The deeper the keel or the bigger the bird the more training that needs to be done. I would suggest both dont start with single tosses but I have seen the perfect combination of the both really pay off for different folks.


matt i have birds that has big and wide body with long fligths and the keel are shallow type and huge wattle, when you feel it its kind of flatten with very wide back and i dont even know what strain are they,,,i bouthg them from this 70 year old guy and i ask him, he forgot the name of the strain but they are huge and good looking birds and 1 pair already has an egg, and it was biggest eggs i ever seen and very pointed, and i was thinking to foster the eggs so i can get two clucthes at the same time...


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

bloodlines_365 said:


> matt i have birds that has big and wide body with long fligths and the keel are shallow type and huge wattle, when you feel it its kind of flatten with very wide back and i dont even know what strain are they,,,i bouthg them from this 70 year old guy and i ask him, he forgot the name of the strain but they are huge and good looking birds and 1 pair already has an egg, and it was biggest eggs i ever seen and very pointed, and i was thinking to foster the eggs so i can get two clucthes at the same time...


It is funny how we are always buying birds from Belgium and then when we get them we think we need to change them to make them good birds and we breed them down. We need to make our training plans better and be able to run these size of birds. I have Belgium imports and Van elsacker birds down 100% from that loft and they are big, too. The deeper the keel or the bigger the bird you just have to train harder to get them into the racing mode. I got two Belgium birds just a month ago and I posted pics on here, they are huge everyone said that I needed to breed them down and I told them what I was going to do and I think I might tell you. I race a family primarily Bekuerts and they first 5 pairs that my grandpa got were one the smaller side. That is what our family is founded on. So about 80% of my birds are shallowed keeled and smaller, they take almost no real training to get them into tip top shape. I have been starting a second family to improve our young bird/sprint results. I got alot of bigger birds that are very deep keeled and very large. I hope all of my effort will pay off next young bird season. Not a fan of young birds because it isn't my strong point when it comes down to types of racing. What I am planning on doing when it comes down to training is that I will train 6 days a week instead of 3 days. My 'skinny' birds will go 3 days a week and my 'bigger' birds will go all 6 or maybe 5 if they are to the point. (when I say 6 days a week I am talking about 25 minute jogs for the birds.) I'm also working on a system to rotate the 'skinny' birds threw with different groups to kinda change up the groups. Then on Saturdays I will probably pair up birds that are my 2 best, then the 2 after them, all the way down the line. This will pair up my best to the best and really make them race. After about 1/2 of the season is over, I'll take the bottom 1/3 and insert the worst bird to the best pair and see if I can't get the bird to come in racing with the best pair. It's all in your methods. Hope your 'big' investment pays off.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Matt D. said:


> It is funny how we are always buying birds from Belgium and then when we get them we think we need to change them to make them good birds and we breed them down. We need to make our training plans better and be able to run these size of birds. I have Belgium imports and Van elsacker birds down 100% from that loft and they are big, too. The deeper the keel or the bigger the bird you just have to train harder to get them into the racing mode. I got two Belgium birds just a month ago and I posted pics on here, they are huge everyone said that I needed to breed them down and I told them what I was going to do and I think I might tell you. I race a family primarily Bekuerts and they first 5 pairs that my grandpa got were one the smaller side. That is what our family is founded on. So about 80% of my birds are shallowed keeled and smaller, they take almost no real training to get them into tip top shape. I have been starting a second family to improve our young bird/sprint results. I got alot of bigger birds that are very deep keeled and very large. I hope all of my effort will pay off next young bird season. Not a fan of young birds because it isn't my strong point when it comes down to types of racing. What I am planning on doing when it comes down to training is that I will train 6 days a week instead of 3 days. My 'skinny' birds will go 3 days a week and my 'bigger' birds will go all 6 or maybe 5 if they are to the point. (when I say 6 days a week I am talking about 25 minute jogs for the birds.) I'm also working on a system to rotate the 'skinny' birds threw with different groups to kinda change up the groups. Then on Saturdays I will probably pair up birds that are my 2 best, then the 2 after them, all the way down the line. This will pair up my best to the best and really make them race. After about 1/2 of the season is over, I'll take the bottom 1/3 and insert the worst bird to the best pair and see if I can't get the bird to come in racing with the best pair. It's all in your methods. Hope your 'big' investment pays off.


but i didnt pay alot on this birds, i payed 60 bucks for his best pair with super red eye on the female and orange eye on the male and 30 bucks each females and i got three big females coz i dont have that much money and im the first one went to his loft to pick the best of his birds....because his getting out of racing pigeon and moving out to other country and he sees me as a good kid and very interested in pigeon, this birds looks like the birds i seen on pipa for long distance and i was planning to croosbreed my muelmans/bandit to one of his females and a few janseen and mortvedt males in order to get long distance white... and i think you have some very good training method and i like the way how you mixed them up in tossing, and i will consider those to one of training method..... thanks!!


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Hope the really impress you. When I said 'big' i meant the size of the birds you got not how much money you payed. I got a great bargin on a yearling pair of Hapyco Meulman Pigoens 'the' old Judy line, for just 100 bucks a few years back at a very small pigeon auction. They didn't fly well for the guy that was selling them (he wasn't to bright, I could tell by how bad he sucked even with really good birds) and I took them home and they continue to throw some of the best birds in my young bird flock. Sometimes it is the cheap ones that pay off. Paying 5 grand on a bird doesn't always pay off like a good 100 dollar investment does.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Matt D. said:


> Hope the really impress you. When I said 'big' i meant the size of the birds you got not how much money you payed. I got a great bargin on a yearling pair of Hapyco Meulman Pigoens 'the' old Judy line, for just 100 bucks a few years back at a very small pigeon auction. They didn't fly well for the guy that was selling them (he wasn't to bright, I could tell by how bad he sucked even with really good birds) and I took them home and they continue to throw some of the best birds in my young bird flock. Sometimes it is the cheap ones that pay off. Paying 5 grand on a bird doesn't always pay off like a good 100 dollar investment does.


i paid 150 dollars for five birds and i seen this birds fly too ,,,,their fast.... i know alot of this guys would pay 5 gs or 20gs for a single bird, i cant imagined.... you know i cant still beleive why people in this country cant produce excellent racers and breeders, i think we all have the strain or bloodlines thats thos guys in europe has... do we always have to import birds from them,i think this flow of beliefe that excellent racing pigeon only exist in europe, has to be stop.....or maybe because most of us dont really know how to tell the difference between excellent,good or bad and worst pigeon without its numbers or papers,,,, those anybody realize that fasle or fake pedegree exist in the racing pigeon world....... me personally dont really relie on its pedigree,i look on a good pigeon base on its quality of how it handles of my hand, of how solid and the proportion of its body, and how supple those wings and how long they are and its shape and specially if i seen the birds fly and how he bends his wings and then ill be able to understand whats the best training and racing method of this particular pigeon...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Sure there are some very good birds in the U S . But for one races here are on a much smaller scale/less birds in race. The european countries have much larger races that show win in big races. LOOKS better on paper. And many times birds are sold just by the paper, that are not useable birds at all. BUT for a few things are doing better ,as those few are building there birds and not passing on there junk birds to the people that get taken each year. Its time to figure in big races here. state and state district races We have combine and federation type races But clubs do not ban together well. 1 bird loft races are more geared for the money with lesser numbers of birds BUT great compition as to over all quality. I do not believe the U S will ever have the great number races you see else where But perhaps one day More clubs will go to the large combine at least. With fuel costs today Combines or federations seem more the way tocut costs and increase compatition.


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