# Whats the difference...



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Between ACV & regular cooking vinegar, besides the apple taste of ACV and the color, can I use the regular cooking vinegar to mix up for their drink?

My birds always drink water with garlic, mostly everyday...Now I would like to know if I can give them the white vinegar...Never done the vinegar before so I have to ask...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Apple Cider Vinegar is the only vinegar you should use for pigeons. White vinegar can be used for cleaning and sanitizing the drinkers and loft, but just for that.
I would personally only use garlic in the water once a week and ACV in there up to three times. There is a such thing as too much. By the way, when you use vinegar its a tablespoon per gallon


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here's some info on vinegar and garlic:
http://www.vpu.co.za/articles/cage_birds/cage/apple_cider/apple_1.htm
http://www.albertaclassic.net/2005/Vinegar.php
http://www3.telus.net/npaw/gchf13.html


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Thanks Becky...*

Something new to me...I appreciate that I got the info...I always wonder about the ACV and the white vinegar, for what I thought it's pretty much they are same when it comes to usage...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You're welcome. I also found this, which gives you more ideas on what to use each for 
http://www.gomestic.com/Homemaking/Seven-Types-of-Vinegar-and-Their-Uses.104829


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I can't give ACV when they are feeding young or when they have babies right?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You still can. If I slack off with the other birds, I make sure at least the breeders have vinegar water. Helps keep the crop nice and clean from bad bacteria that might make the babies sick. Also helps the immune system, which can be weakened during the stress of raising babies. The babies are bound to get a little dose of the vinegar which is beneficial to them too. I've never had a problem with using vinegar while they have babies.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pegasus said:


> Between ACV & regular cooking vinegar, besides the apple taste of ACV and the color, can I use the regular cooking vinegar to mix up for their drink?
> 
> My birds always drink water with garlic, mostly everyday...Now I would like to know if I can give them the white vinegar...Never done the vinegar before so I have to ask...


ACV=Apple Cider Vinegar

According to Dr. Chalmers, any of the vinegars will create the desired acidic
environment that will favor the good bacteria which in turn keep the populations of unfavorable bacteria at lower concentrations. However, by using raw ACV that has "the mother" in it, the pigeons get the benefit of
the probiotics contained in the mother and of the nutrients naturally occuring
in raw ACV.

http://www.bragg.com/products/acv.html

Garlic and ACV are considered pre-biotics that create the environment for
rapid mutiplication when followed w/probiotics. They can't repair the disease
state in a bird but can help to keep the bird's natural immunity system elevated.

fp


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I just finished reading the sites from what Becky gave me and yours are helpful too...Thank you FP...


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Dr. Chalmers


Hi Fp, I've never heard of Dr. Chalmers. Can You tell me about him. I'd like to read his stuff to see what he's got to say. If he's got a website Could you give it to me too?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

No problem, it's actually the Alberta Classic site that says that the acidic environment from the vinegar is what's important not the kind of vinegar.
I don't think they are considering the nutritional aspect of Bragg's however,
just the ability of the good bacteria to multiply w/any acidic environment.

I use garlic water and ACV about 50/50, as they both have anti-microbial
properties that are beneficial. Again, not curtative but very supportive of
good health.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Gordon Chalmers is very well known and respected in avian/pigeon circles and
many sites carry his articles including Pigeonnetwork and Alberta Classic.

Here are a few links:

http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/if_article_coxi_gorden_chelmers.html

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/index.cfm

http://www.racingpigeon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=73

There's plenty of articles by Chalmers to be found on the net by Googling him.

Hope you like these links.

fp


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> No problem, it's actually the Alberta Classic site that says that the acidic environment from the vinegar is what's important not the kind of vinegar.
> I don't think they are considering the nutritional aspect of Bragg's however,
> just the ability of the good bacteria to multiply w/any acidic environment.
> 
> ...


How bout using ACV on the 1st week of the young babies? Is that going to effect on the babies health? Or shud I stay with plain water when the babies hatch?


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Gordon Chalmers is very well known and respected in avian/pigeon circles and
> many sites carry his articles including Pigeonnetwork and Alberta Classic.
> 
> Here are a few links:
> ...


I did look at those links and read the introduction to him, but haven't read his info on individual diseases yet. I looked but couldnt find his Race results. Do you know what his race results are? Or a webpage that he's put his results on? Thanks, He seems like an interesting vet.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Pegasus said:


> How bout using ACV on the 1st week of the young babies? Is that going to effect on the babies health? Or shud I stay with plain water when the babies hatch?


No, acv wont hurt babies of any age. If you use acv with your breeders when the babies are really young, you wont have the really runny, loose droppings in the box. You'll be impressed, I was when I started using it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Matt D. said:


> I did look at those links and read the introduction to him, but haven't read his info on individual diseases yet. I looked but couldnt find his Race results. Do you know what his race results are? Or a webpage that he's put his results on? Thanks, He seems like an interesting vet.


Race results?  The links contained articles on individual diseases, he is known for his medical research work specifically w/pigeons and is considered
a distinguished veterinarian. He also has written many articles on pigeon health
and their homing abilities from a medical/scientific perspective.

fp


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Dr. Chalmer does mention he's raced pigeons as well. Most 'pigeon doctors' tend to be racers I've noticed. Anyways what I think Matt is going for the fact health is a big factor in having good race results. So you would think being an avian vet, he'd be a good pigeon racer/fancier as well, and his results should reflect his knowledge of them.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually, I am well aware of what Matt was getting at....don't need interpreting
there. It's just that what this man is most famous for is his medical research.
He did pioneering work w/developing the concept of 'strains of canker'. Anyway,
he's well known at the Alberta Classic site and PigeonNetwork and many other
national and international pigeon sites.

fp


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Dr. Chalmer does mention he's raced pigeons as well. Most 'pigeon doctors' tend to be racers I've noticed. Anyways what I think Matt is going for the fact health is a big factor in having good race results. So you would think being an avian vet, he'd be a good pigeon racer/fancier as well, and his results should reflect his knowledge of them.


Yup, I try to avoid taking advice from pigeon vets that can't hold a pigeon comfortably. Piet De Weerd & son and Colin Walker would be the three vets that come to mind when I think of vets that I could trust, not only because of their experience in the lab but they can also fly pigeons.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Colin Walker deals w/a different set of operatives on another continent. He is
a good doctor and has written good books, however, Chalmers is no slouch and
I think is heavier in the research department which comes through in the body
of his work.

fp


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Colin Walker deals w/a different set of operatives on another continent. He is
> a good doctor and has written good books, however, Chalmers is no slouch and
> I think is heavier in the research department which comes through in the body
> of his work.
> ...


Well, I've always had a theory that If You're doing all your research in a lab, Then your information will be spot on for birds living in a lab. I'd rather have a vet that has experience in a real-life situation with pigeons. Not in a sterile environment. Colin Walker and De Weerd both have/had pigeons that they race and both are/were national champions. They are the kinds of people I will be listening to when they talk about pigeons. You can't win a race with a sick pigeon.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Matt D. said:


> Well, I've always had a theory that If You're doing all your research in a lab, Then your information will be spot on for birds living in a lab. I'd rather have a vet that has experience in a real-life situation with pigeons. Not in a sterile environment. Colin Walker and De Weerd both have/had pigeons that they race and both are/were national champions. They are the kinds of people I will be listening to when they talk about pigeons. You can't win a race with a sick pigeon.



Look Matt, try reading Chalmers before you invent these theories that just
aren't so. Once you've read his articles and digested the material to the point where you can discuss it w/the same articulate intelligence it was written with, then there is a starting point for discussion. You are writing this expert off in bias not facts.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

And by the way, Dr. Brian Speer who is a world class vet and a licensed avian
vet on two continents, doesn't own pigeons. He is one of the best avian surgeons in the world.

fp


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> And by the way, Dr. Brian Speer who is a world class vet and a licensed avian
> vet on two continents, doesn't own pigeons. He is one of the best avian surgeons in the world.
> 
> fp


Then there is no way I'd let him touch any of my birds. Im not interested in 'avian vets.' Parrot docs have no business cutting into a pigeon. 

Oh, and I'm reading the rest of those Articles right now.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Not familiar about vets...*

Sorry to burst your bubbles for now...

But I rather get some feedbacks on everyones experience about using ACV and everyones observations using ACV...I know I can get ideas and all in the websites but I want to know what others can share to me what they know by giving this to their birds...

I really appreciate if I can gather more 411 about it...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well speaking of vinegar, I went to go search for some more helpful stuff about it. Came across this. I had no idea there was a website like this all about cider vinegar.
http://www.apple-cider-vinegar-benefits.com/index.html
Gives you good reason to give it to all your pets, and yourself


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Pegasus said:


> Sorry to burst your bubbles for now...
> 
> But I rather get some feedbacks on everyones experience about using ACV and everyones observations using ACV...I know I can get ideas and all in the websites but I want to know what others can share to me what they know by giving this to their birds...
> 
> I really appreciate if I can gather more 411 about it...


Well, I use ACV every other day. I change my waters every day, one day with acv the next with naturaline from the natural company. According to Becky, I use way too much to my gallon of water. I usually use like 4 to 5 tablespoons to a gallon. I have really hard water here though, and the naturaline is a base. My birds are fine so Im not changing anything till they start dropping in condition.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Matt D. said:


> Then there is no way I'd let him touch any of my birds. Im not interested in 'avian vets.' Parrot docs have no business cutting into a pigeon.
> 
> Oh, and I'm reading the rest of those Articles right now.


You are showing your ignorance. This is a man who has operated on Condors.
He by far and away does the most exclusive and comprehensive oviduct surgery
one can have performed. He operated on one of John's hen's who was a winner
after John (Alamo Feed and Grain) had lost his loft to a fire and saved his winning hen's life. You would be silly indeed to refuse his services if you had the
financial reserves and good reason to pursue his expertise.

fp


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well speaking of vinegar, I went to go search for some more helpful stuff about it. Came across this. I had no idea there was a website like this all about cider vinegar.
> http://www.apple-cider-vinegar-benefits.com/index.html
> Gives you good reason to give it to all your pets, and yourself


Thank you again...I saved it to my Faves...so I can print it out later on...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here's another good link on ACV:

http://www.racingbirds.com/remedies1.html

I have read a caution where the use of vinegar is concerned. This being that
because it does tend to reduce the 'wetness' of droppings, that it can also serve as a mask for illness that is present in a bird, thereby allowing a bird that
is sick to go undetected in the loft. The article where I read this didn't say that
one should not use ACV because of this, but instead, to be conservative in
the number of times per week it is used and remain observant on 'off' days.

fp


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> You are showing your ignorance. This is a man who has operated on Condors.
> He by far and away does the most exclusive and comprehensive oviduct surgery
> one can have performed. He operated on one of John's hen's who was a winner
> after John (Alamo Feed and Grain) had lost his loft to a fire and saved his winning hen's life. You would be silly indeed to refuse his services if you had the
> ...


Well, I've never heard of this vet so I am sorry but I being general because I wasnt really talking about this one doc but the field as a whole. I've never taken a bird to a vet, and I don't plan too. As far as what my birds need, Ive always been able to give them what they need to stay healthy. The few that didn't, didn't last long. 

I was als informed that my responses have been received as 'very disrespectful' so I will leave this thread. I'm not saying much now that will be relevant to Pegasus' original question. So I will leave.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*My 2 cents here*



Pegasus said:


> But I rather get some feedbacks on everyones experience about using ACV and everyones observations using ACV...I know I can get ideas and all in the websites but I want to know what others can share to me what they know by giving this to their birds...
> 
> ...


I have been using ACV since 2005 as recommended by member Feral Pigeon. I adopted one of fp's famous rescues, Beaksley a few years ago and have learned much from fp, Pidgey and other valuable experienced members on this site and totally trust them.

I don't race, I do not "show", but I do have 8 very healthy pigeons that I call pets, and they are given Bragg's ACV once or twice a week along with probiotc and garlic. My pigeons are very happy and healthy birds.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

You guys are very helpful about this info for me tonight...Appreciate all the sites that's provided for me to read soon as I print them out...Thanks Victor, I'll take your word for it as well...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Matt D. said:


> Well, I've never heard of this vet so I am sorry but I being general because I wasnt really talking about this one doc but the field as a whole. I've never taken a bird to a vet, and I don't plan too. As far as what my birds need, Ive always been able to give them what they need to stay healthy. The few that didn't, didn't last long.
> 
> I was als informed that my responses have been received as 'very disrespectful' so I will leave this thread. I'm not saying much now that will be relevant to Pegasus' original question. So I will leave.


Matt, there are many illnesses that ACV and antibiotics won't fix in our birds.
Egg binding in hens is fairly common in the loft and one day you will have to deal with this as a pigeon fancier. Canker that spreads to organs undetected will certainly steal a bird. There are many difficult choices in the roads yet to be traveled that await us as pigeon lovers in general. There is no one 'silver bullet' that will protect us from losing a bird, but vigilance in providing known needs will go a long way in helping to avoid the more painful choices that will surely arise. 

fp


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

From what I noticed there's some different brand of ACV, is it only Braggs that is good making ACV's? I've seen some Del Monte and some other kind...When I looked at the bottle it say there about 5% of something in the back label...I'm not sure if the percentage of Braggs are the same as the other brands?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bragg's is organic. If you can't find it...look for an organic ACV.
My birds won't touch their water if I put ACV in it....go figure!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

You can find Bragg's ACV with "the mother in it "at most health food stores. I recently bought a concentrated bottle for about 3 bucks. It lasts a long time if you only have eight birds.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

We've always used White House vinegar. Says it's all natural, and it's the only kind I've seen around here. Works fine for me.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

This is what I and so many others use:


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ah. Next time we're around a health food store, I'll see if I can find that  I had never heard of it before.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> We've always used White House vinegar. Says it's all natural, and it's the only kind I've seen around here. Works fine for me.


You can order it on line as well if your health food store does not handle it, or they can order it for you if you ask them.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Ah. Next time we're around a health food store, I'll see if I can find that  I had never heard of it before.



It's one and the same as the link I provided in post #8.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pegasus said:


> From what I noticed there's some different brand of ACV, is it only Braggs that is good making ACV's? I've seen some Del Monte and some other kind...When I looked at the bottle it say there about 5% of something in the back label...I'm not sure if the percentage of Braggs are the same as the other brands?


It's organic and raw, that is to say, unpasteurized and containing the "mother"
which is what makes the big difference nutritionally....When you look at an unopened bottle you will notice a cloudy, stringy substance....this is what is referred to as the "mother".

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

MaryOfExeter said:


> We've always used White House vinegar. Says it's all natural, and it's the only kind I've seen around here. Works fine for me.


http://www.whitehousefoods.com/products.asp

The White House ACV listed in their product line doesn't contain the "mother"
in it as they state that it is clear. It is most likely pasteurized and so missing
the nutrients contained in Bragg's which is raw and organic.

fp


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

look for it in the organic section of the grocery store...the organic with the mother in it has bits and peices floating around in it.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I'll be on my way to GNC in a few to check it out if they do have that there...


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

I didnt know you needed a doctor to prescribe ACV now lol  people are truely funny


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You are making this too complicated. A vinegar is a vinegar is a vinegar. It is the "extra" (the "mother") that you get from ACV. But your goal is to provide an acidic environment so both will do just fine. Now if you want to provide other nutrition, then use ACV.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Wait, wait, wait...*



LokotaLoft said:


> I didnt know you needed a doctor to prescribe ACV now lol  people are truely funny


Did I miss anything here? Who mentioned about a doctor , I missed that part let me open another tab and read that doctor part ...Oh now I get it...Talking about the doctors in the past post...Man, I thought I have to get some prescription about ACV's...Lokota, you got me worried for a few sec. there...I went to GNC today and they don't have that by me so I might go and look in PathMark tomorrow before football start...


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

all you need is to buy th acv with mother and add to the water a couple times a weeks, I was kidding about the dr. as they went off in a different direction with what they were talking about with the dr.  lol


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

RodSD said:


> You are making this too complicated. A vinegar is a vinegar is a vinegar. It is the "extra" (the "mother") that you get from ACV. But your goal is to provide an acidic environment so both will do just fine. Now if you want to provide other nutrition, then use ACV.


This is true, RodSD that it's the acidic environment that aids in the population
growth of the beneficial bacteria. One slight correction about ACV, not all ACV
has the mother in it, only the raw, unfiltered (i.e., not pasteurized) has the
added benefit of the "mother".

There are other brands of raw, organic ACV that has the "mother" in it besides Bragg's though that's the most popular:

https://www.wegmans.com/webapp/wcs/...toreId=10052&catalogId=10002&productId=372073

http://www.red23.co.uk/Raw-Organic-Apple-Cider-Vinegar-473ml_p_174.html

http://www.amazon.com/Vinegar-Apple-Unpasteurized-Unfiltered-Organic/dp/B0000DI1Z1

http://health-beauty.pricegrabber.com/dietary-weight-loss/m/29068255/

http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11429509/Organic_Apple_Cider_Vinegar.html

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

LokotaLoft said:


> all you need is to buy th acv with mother and add to the water a couple times a weeks, I was kidding about the dr. as they went off in a different direction with what they were talking about with the dr.  lol


That's because Chalmers is responsible for investigating the 'myth' of ACV only
to find out that an acidic environment really was beneficial for the birds...though
it didn't need to be raw ACV exclusively.

fp


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