# inbreeding advice!!!



## serkz! (Apr 30, 2012)

hi people, i have these 2 young birds 5 months old, brother and sister. 
now when i got them the breeder had experience with them for years and he had told me that they would have chicks within 6 months... i was kinda concerned about the inbreeding sequence but i didn't wanna separate them has i heard that theyd been paired since birth... but he explained briefly that it was the nature of birds, inbreeds happen all the time in the wild.. so then i kinda relaxed about it. i was just wondering if any experts would approve this. 
they are 5 months old, i keep them together in their lofts and are healthy.
my question would be that is there any big problems apart from obvious possible defects that i read on here. and would they 100% breed?
(yes i do want chicks) and would not concider replacing the eggs.
regards.
i have also questions about what kind of pigeons these would be?
white pigeons or doves?
here are some pix


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

Hello

Lovely birds

I do not Encourage inbreeding system if you have alternative
but if you have to to want to try (try and value ​​results).
Regards


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi there, Many people line breed their racers and other breeds to lock in the good genes and as you have mentioned it is reasonably common in the wild, Go for it but if you get a chance in future for an unrelated outcross jump on it as you will need to at some stage. put it to one of these guys offspring.

They are pigeons, Unsure what breed. If they have a good nest and warm loft they will breed.


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## ETphonehome (Jan 3, 2012)

*inbreeding,incest*

I should personally let the pigeons together to decide if they pair or not, I would put them with other pigeons to let them decide to pare together again or not. 
The rest of objections to breeding in wild species are just the result of the distorted human morality and hypocrisy, claiming everything "its nature" and even using nature to justify some of their deeds when convenient and dismissing nature when not convenient for their own interests. 

Do your own research.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I hate to know that on pigeon-talk some are debating politics, morality, religion, harp ...unless is necessary to protect pigeons...Otherwise i would be blogging on other websites.
ET your approach on human incest is interesting, but personally,i think here is not the place.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If they choose to be together, they will breed. When they do, you could share pictures of the babies. We love pics on here. You're birds are very pretty.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

well you can let nature take its course and yes if you got an cock and a hen, they will mate regardless of who each other are. But you have to be responsible for the outcome if you let them breed. Meaning that since they both are soo close and their genes pool is soo identical, you may get some defect offspring.

I personally will not let them breed. but if you want more birds, why not go back to the breeder guy and get another one that is not related to your two. If you do go get another one, get a hen. Then breed the new he with the cock and then you can let one of their offspring to breed with the other hen. that way, you dont have to worry about defects. 

I dont know what kind your birds are. they look like some kind roller or tippler. I hope some fancier in here can identify them for you.


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## serkz! (Apr 30, 2012)

sev3ns0uls said:


> well you can let nature take its course and yes if you got an cock and a hen, they will mate regardless of who each other are. But you have to be responsible for the outcome if you let them breed. Meaning that since they both are soo close and their genes pool is soo identical, you may get some defect offspring.
> 
> I personally will not let them breed. but if you want more birds, why not go back to the breeder guy and get another one that is not related to your two. If you do go get another one, get a hen. Then breed the new he with the cock and then you can let one of their offspring to breed with the other hen. that way, you dont have to worry about defects.
> 
> I dont know what kind your birds are. they look like some kind roller or tippler. I hope some fancier in here can identify them for you.


so itis advised to not let them breed? because they will have defects...
i mean everyones saying something different i dont know what to do?
at the moment i havent got a problem with them mating as i have found out that this is what they do naturally and in the wild.
but if the chicks are gona be defected then i wouldnt want them to...
i will not attempt to mate them, id leave them to their own will.
and i have got 2 birds in resemblance of my 2 brothers. i dont know about getting another bird...
to be very honest im confused.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The thing about the inbreeding is that it can set good traits or bad traits. I would leave them alone, but that is just my opinion, and there are many.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

serkz! said:


> so itis advised to not let them breed? because they will have defects...
> i mean everyones saying something different i dont know what to do?
> at the moment i havent got a problem with them mating as i have found out that this is what they do naturally and in the wild.
> but if the chicks are gona be defected then i wouldnt want them to...
> ...


Yes in the wild brother N sister will mate only by chance and coincidence. And remember that in the wild its nature toll on them and it doesn't affect you. In ur case its ur birds and u have to be responsible for it for anything happen.

Well here is an alternative. You will probably have to step in since those two birds meant something special to u. You can let them mate but just throw out the eves and give them dummy eggs to incubate. That way they wont haveany offspring and u don't have toworry about it. Egg will hatch in 18 days if fertile.


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## serkz! (Apr 30, 2012)

thanx to every one on here sharing their thoughts with me and being understanding! 
from what i have gathered, i come to the decision to let them mate if they will...
and just hope that nothing will go wrong.
i will share the photos on here if it happens.
regards


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Mate- Honestly you would be pretty unlucky to strike any issues on the first pair of pigeons you put together that ared slightlly inbred

The amount of brother sister pairings I have put together for colour purposes and not had any issues gives me confidence that you should be sweet - Not discounting the possibility but I think you will be all good.

Let us know


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## serkz! (Apr 30, 2012)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Mate- Honestly you would be pretty unlucky to strike any issues on the first pair of pigeons you put together that ared slightlly inbred
> 
> The amount of brother sister pairings I have put together for colour purposes and not had any issues gives me confidence that you should be sweet - Not discounting the possibility but I think you will be all good.
> 
> Let us know


thanks for your advise!


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

There's been Plenty of Race Winners come out of Brother/Sister matings also.Not to be looked upon as some Evil Incest as some refer to it.Thousands of flyers Inbreed yearly.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree, The James Bond strain is big here in NZ at the mo. I have looked at the pedigree of a JB bird I have in my stock loft and its inbred to hell, Amazing looking cockbird though. 

At the end of the day, how did we get all the amazing racing strains we have around these days? 
And lets not forget all the crazy types of fancy - thats all inbreeding, then selection, then some more inbreeding and so on, so any pigeon fancier that keeps fancies or racing strains need to accept inbreeding played a huge part in the creation of the birds they have in their lofts.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

In regards to pigeons, I do not believe that sister and brother should be mated, there is not enough gene pool there and have read of babies born with issues such as blindness.

however, I know breeders who have bred mother to son and daughter to father, but you have to have a pretty good gene pool behind them and know what your doing.

In regards to any other species, it is off topic and controversial and breaking forum rules. Thank you.


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## serkz! (Apr 30, 2012)

Skyeking said:


> In regards to pigeons, I do not believe that sister and brother should be mated, there is not enough gene pool there and have read of babies born with issues such as blindness.
> 
> however, I know breeders who have bred mother to son and daughter to father, but you have to have a pretty good gene pool behind them and know what your doing.
> 
> In regards to any other species, it is off topic and controversial and breaking forum rules. Thank you.


hi thank you for your advise. 
i wouldn't particularly promote it either. but the birds have paired up since birth. and i didn't wanna separate them when i bought them... i mean if the birds are OK with in their instincts to breed. what can we do do about it? at the end of the day there isn't much you can do, precautions like separating them or bringing in new birds is just interfering a bit too much in my opinion...
i started this pole in order to gain some info.
and some might of misunderstood me..
i dont want to breed my birds( how ever wouldn't mind some babies), what i wanna know is will they breed on their own?
and would there be definite defects on the offspring...
and i think im kinda understanding the relevant points and facts about this topic.
but more of the comments are on an opinion basis about incest rather than definite facts....
regards.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

well you can let them mate and have eggs like a normal pair but just dont let them hatch it. Buy some dummy eggs and replace it once the real eggs are layed. Throw away the real eggs. 

I suppose you want more pigeons right? Because im was alittle confuse. Its alright to let brother and sister pair up. It is their offspring that is the problem.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> well you can let them mate and have eggs like a normal pair but just dont let them hatch it. Buy some dummy eggs and replace it once the real eggs are layed. Throw away the real eggs.
> 
> I suppose you want more pigeons right? Because im was alittle confuse. Its alright to let brother and sister pair up. It is their offspring that is the problem.


Yes they want more pigeons, In their first post they clarified that they do not want to use dummy eggs


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yes they want more pigeons, In their first post they clarified that they do not want to use dummy eggs


then its obvious that why not buy another bird like i mentioned earlier. of course he want more birds right, then why not add another hen and dont have to worry about inbreeding.
problem solved!


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## serkz! (Apr 30, 2012)

sev3ns0uls said:


> then its obvious that why not buy another bird like i mentioned earlier. of course he want more birds right, then why not add another hen and dont have to worry about inbreeding.
> problem solved!


i might have to consider getting another hen... but i dont want my hen to be lonely, after the cock and the new hen pairs up...might get another cock too.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

serkz! said:


> i might have to consider getting another hen... but i dont want my hen to be lonely, after the cock and the new hen pairs up...might get another cock too.


The next issue is getting an already mated pair to pair with other birds, This could cause stress and unhappiness and considering the level of risk I would say go with happy birds.

Brother and sister matings are not different to father and daughter or vice versa - the risks are still there


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

serkz! said:


> i might have to consider getting another hen... but i dont want my hen to be lonely, after the cock and the new hen pairs up...might get another cock too.


It will be wonderful if you can get another cock and a hen so that you can have 2 pairs and you dont have to worry about incest and defects offspring. Since you have 2 families, the genes pool is diverse.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> The next issue is getting an already mated pair to pair with other birds, This could cause stress and unhappiness and considering the level of risk I would say go with happy birds.
> 
> Brother and sister matings are not different to father and daughter or vice versa - the risks are still there


Separating can be done. yes, there may be stress but only in a short time. After they pair up with the new mate, everything will be fine again.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> The next issue is getting an already mated pair to pair with other birds, This could cause stress and unhappiness and considering the level of risk I would say go with happy birds.
> 
> Brother and sister matings are not different to father and daughter or vice versa - the risks are still there


Yes, the risks are there, but father or mother to offspring are only 50% related to one another. Brother to sister are 100% related to one another.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Does anyone have statistics on the risks of something being wrong with the babies? Because they can also turn out fine.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

well there i have not seen it myself but some people did mention that they got offsprings that lack of certain things. such as blindness, missing toe, not having enough wing feathers, uneven beak, retardation, higher chance of catching disease, etc.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

grifter said:


> Yes, the risks are there, but father or mother to offspring are only 50% related to one another. Brother to sister are 100% related to one another.


If you know how genes work you would realise the brother and sister are 100%the same.
From each parent there are two possible genes that can be donated, In some cases bro and sister can be just as different genetically as their parents.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> It will be wonderful if you can get another cock and a hen so that you can have 2 pairs and you dont have to worry about incest and defects offspring. Since you have 2 families, the genes pool is diverse.


what happens when they breed and bro and sis pair up by choice?

Is that ok because they are from two different families to begin with?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Does anyone have statistics on the risks of something being wrong with the babies? Because they can also turn out fine.


I don't have statistics, but my American Fantail loft started with inbreeding. With roughly 50 birds now, there are no serious defects.
Some of the best birds I have are out of a cock that I had to hand raise (Breezy) because his mother abandoned him, and when I put him in the loft he paired up *with* his Mother!...and have been together ever since. Their babies are gorgeous, and I'm also getting a wide variety of different colors from them.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> what happens when they breed and bro and sis pair up by choice?
> 
> Is that ok because they are from two different families to begin with?


i think the likely hood of brother and sister paring up is very slim. I think they perfer another bird instead of their nest mate. but in some case, they will pair up with their younger sibling if the parent keep breeding and they have no other chioce. thats why you will aleast have 2 pairs to start with so that the gene pool will be alittle divers.

i had a pair of nest mate and when they mature, they didnt pair up even though there are no other hens or cock avaliable.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> I don't have statistics, but my American Fantail loft started with inbreeding. With roughly 50 birds now, there are no serious defects.
> Some of the best birds I have are out of a cock that I had to hand raise (Breezy) because his mother abandoned him, and when I put him in the loft he paired up *with* his Mother!...and have been together ever since. Their babies are gorgeous, and I'm also getting a wide variety of different colors from them.


umm i hears some breeders say that mother and son can pair fine just and so as father and daughter. 

Brother and sister is a different story because they are from the same parent that develope both offspring to have almost indentical genetic in them.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

sev3ns0uls said:


> umm i hears some breeders say that mother and son can pair fine just and so as father and daughter.
> 
> Brother and sister is a different story because they are from the same parent that develope both offspring to have almost indentical genetic in them.


That was just one example that I gave. 
Hand raised nest mates 'Orvil and Poppy' paired off while inside my house. Later when I moved them to the loft, Orvil picked out a mistress and had young with 'both' - Poppy and his Mistress.......he still has both hens and won't let anyone near them. Actually all their offspring are very tame even though I didn't hand raise 'their' babies.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> i think the likely hood of brother and sister paring up is very slim. I think they perfer another bird instead of their nest mate. but in some case, they will pair up with their younger sibling if the parent keep breeding and they have no other chioce. thats why you will aleast have 2 pairs to start with so that the gene pool will be alittle divers.
> 
> i had a pair of nest mate and when they mature, they didnt pair up even though there are no other hens or cock avaliable.


So whats to say these two birds are not from two totally unrelated parents? Meaning they came from a diverse gene pool therefore if they pair up it should not matter

IME I have seen lots of bro sis matings by choice as they are generally maturing around the same time and they are also familiar with each other.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> umm i hears some breeders say that mother and son can pair fine just and so as father and daughter.
> 
> Brother and sister is a different story because they are from the same parent that develope both offspring to have almost indentical genetic in them.


again this is a myth, Two birds although from the same nest can be just as diverse genetically as their parents


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> That was just one example that I gave.
> Hand raised nest mates 'Orvil and Poppy' paired off while inside my house. Later when I moved them to the loft, Orvil picked out a mistress and had young with 'both' - Poppy and his Mistress.......he still has both hens and won't let anyone near them. Actually all their offspring are very tame even though I didn't hand raise 'their' babies.


Only in Maine!!!!


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

i would think your pigeons would be some kind of Thailand Laugher or most likely mixed with some white rollers or homers....


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