# Injured, exhausted baby......advice ?



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi all.

Thanks to Ivor (Ivette) for saving this lil' guy from an SF sidewalk bus shelter and giving him some good supportive care. She found him yesterday afternoon. She caught him rather easily and took him home; washed him once, fed him, and kept him warm for the day. It really is amazing that he has managed to survive as long as he did, in his condition, and considering the weather in SF has been incredibly inclement the past month (rain, wind, very cold).

He is alert and "with it". Impossible to tell his age; he is the size of a 2-week old or so, but his feathers are in and long and full, so he must be more like 4-5 weeks I would say. Just a runt and a weakling who has had clearly been getting his tiny #ss kicked...poor lil' guy.

He has not had an easy life so far, for sure. His parents used human hair for their nest, so as a result his feet were tangled and swollen badly in clumps and strands of it. His right foot looks terrible...very swollen and it looks like his rear-pointing toe is ctually dead...it's just small and shriveled. Two front toes appear not much better; one just looks limp and has no movement...the other two are swollen to varying degrees and the hair cut very deeply into them, resulting in deep, deep crevasses almost to the bone. There are some scabby lacerations obviously. On the good side, the inflammation has not transmitted up the leg at all, it is localized at the toes and sole.

We used surgical scissors and have been able to remove 90% if not all of the hair. But the gouges cut deep.

He CAN use both feet...but he comes off of the right one very quickly so obviously it is bothering him.

Looks like he has been pecked at relentlessy by other pigeons...his head is almost bald except for a mohawk of feathers down the center....and he has the remains of scabs near his cere and mouth.

He is feathered elsewhere. He has oily, greasy gunk coatiing his feathers and matting them down.

At Charis' suggestion, we cleaned him with Dawn...which took off half of the oily gunk which was coating his feathers...so his feathers look cleaner and fluffier now. I am gonna give him a second bath this afternoon.

He is severely underweight; I don't have a scale, but his keelbone is seriously protruding. I have been handfeeding him about 5cc's of Kaytee per feeding, which he gobbles. I don't wanna give more than this per meal because I don't wanna stress him. So I intend on about 4-5 feedings/24hrs. When he seems stronger, I will go to larger feedings 3x/day. That translates to 20 cc of Kaytee/day. Also, as Ivor discovered, he CAN forage and does eat safflower seed...so he is supplementing with some of that, too. So I am figuring he's gonna get 20cc formula plus a good teaspoon worth of safflower seeds per day. Does this sound like it will put on weight...or should I up it ?

His poops look good. His eyes look good. No sign of ickyness in his mouth.

I started him immediately on medacam (anti-inflammatory and painkiller) and cipro antibiotic. Tonight I will give him a dose of wormer. I wanna get the pain and any infection under control.

Now the question: how bad do these feet look to you ? Can he survive with them in this condition, assuming the meds relieve any infection ? I apologize for the images, they are the best my old camera can do closeup.

Obviously the toes look swollen and angry...I would say there is some serious infection there, which is why I am hitting it with the some wide-net meds. I am hoping that anti-inflammatories and antibiotics may improve the swelling condition ? Should some be amputated ? Ack...if so...we are in a pickle on that...because I cannot take him to the wildcare facility nearby since they would more than likely put him down (the vet there very proudly proclaims that unless they have a "110% chance" of survival upon re-release into the wild, it is"better" to euthanize them). But I know for sure that my great avian vet will charge a good $500, likely significantly more for toe amputation.

I am always one to get a sick bird to a pro....but I can't swing that. Of course, if it was a life-and-death situation...I guess I could just bite it and bury myself in even further debt than I already am dealing with.

OK, thanks in advance.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

It's kind of hard to tell from the photos, but the feet don't look that bad to me. I'd make sure all the hair is off. You can also remove any dead skin, which will help healthy new skin granulate. Some of the toes may lose circulation over time, in which case they should self-amputate.

I hope someone else chimes in on the feeding question, but 5 ccs per meal seems minuscule to me. I don't think feeding a larger volume will cause additional stress (esp. not if he's gobbling it up). If he's feeding himself, I would tend to let the bulk of his diet be seeds and then just supplement with the formula.

Lastly, bathing is stressful, so if you just gave him a bath, you might want to hold off for another day or two before giving him his second.

Jennifer


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

hi Jaye,

It looks like you are doing a great job.

Whatever you do, do not amputate anything, If you are not able to restore circulation, the toes will simply wither and drop off.

Hair is a real problem; to get at it you will need a magnifier of some kind so you can get a good look at what you are doing, and some local anesthetic. At the drugstore at the dental counter you can get Ambusol or Orajel, which you will need to reduce the struggling. Also while you are there pick up a pair of tweezers with the sharp needle points. Getting hair out is largely a job of picking it out a little at a time.

Before you start rub a little Vaseline in the cut marks. In many cases the hair or string will form a granulous material in the wound which if not removed will continue to impair circulation. That has to come out too if it is there. GIve it about an hour to work its way in. Generally you want to take a toe at a time and look all around the circumference of the ligature mark. Stretch the skin a bit and probe down until you are looking at nice clean skin. When you see that you know that you removed anything cutting off circulation. You may have to go down a ways, so the anesthetic and the magnifier help alot. Try to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, so watch your tweezer points. Finish off with a rinse in hydrogen peroxide and Neosporin with pain killer.

By the way I would hold off on the worming meds if I were you until you are certain he is stable after week or so. It is tough stuff for the bird and with the washing and other meds it could be too much.

Good Luck!


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Thank you Jaye for doing all that, I was thinking about my baby today, and it looks very alert and cleaner, I'm sure is in the best hands right now, I can go back to work now. 

Ivette


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Jaye..........Sounds like you have the situation pretty much under control. Thanks to Ivette for saving this little one and to you for stepping up to taking in and aiding in the recovery of this poor little one.

I would concentrate on removing all the hair from the feet and addressing any infection first.

I would wait a few days between baths. When I rescued Snowflake, who was all gummed up with adhesive material, it took almost a full month of baths to remove everything. It was very stressful for the bird and I waited atleast 3/5 days between each bath. Her foot and leg was also injured, but I found that rest was the best healer for that.

I would hold off on the worming medicine until the bird is totally stable and has put on a little weight. The wormer can wreck havock to the little one's system which is already in a weakened state.

Poor little thing has really been through alot. I'm sure that with all your love and care she will recover soon.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi and thanks for the replies.

OK, so I will....

1) Hold off on the next bath for a day or two.

2) Hold off on the wormer a couple of more days....

3) Up his feedings to maybe 8 cc/feeding @ 4 feedings/day. I am gonna stick with handfeeding because: a. he is so underweight and formula puts on weight very well. b. formula also hydrates. c. he is so accepting of the syringe.

4) I will, over the next couple of days, re-inspect the toes and try to get out any add'l hair and detritus in there.

My only concern is: vaseline to loosen/remove ? My avian vet has always mentioned that petroleum-based ointments on lacerations/open wounds is a bad idea as it can actually attract secondary infections. I have silvadene, which is in ointment and somewhat slippery....I would be inclined to use that instead if you think it'd be OK.

Thanks again, all. More commentary appreciated.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Yes I have heard that song and dance about petroleum based medications, but since more than half of all antibiotic salves are petroleum based, I wonder where they come up with it. If it attracts bacteria I ought to put some in a petri dish the next time I am trying to culture something.

Be that as it may, the reason for using Vaseline is its wonderful penetrating ability. Since it is only going to be on the wound for an hour or less, and then removed with Peroxide, I would not worry about it.

Just keep up the good work!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jaye, you have done a terrific job already with this little guy.

Few things - I'm in agreement to give this baby 5 cc per feeding at least for a few days, then increase it to 8, go a few more days and increase it to 10. When they are so badly nourished, they don't need to be overloaded with food. Also, if you can get to a pet store, purchase a product called Benebac which is a probiotic. With any malnourished or sick bird we get in, I give them a spoonful (comes with the product) one time a day. It really helps. You can also get plain yogurt and put about 1 cc in the formula which will make it 6 cc you are feeding it.

I agree too to hold off on washing for a bit. Just make sure you keep him on a heating pad and warm because anytime they are greasy, their bodies are colder but right now he needs to recuperate some before another bath.

Could you not use KY jelly rather than the vaseline?

Good luck and God bless you for the excellent care you're giving.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you know the weight? Figure he needs about four (4) or more dry, level teaspoons of Kaytee powder per day, regardless of how much water you've mixed in. Get the weight and we can get a little better than that.

Moxie had one with a foot that looked far worse than that. It was an interesting story and it took over half a year to resolve. Judge for yourself:


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can't fit more than four images per post, so... :





































(Stitches is the bird on the right, by the way)


Long story, that one. The short version: foot was about to fall off but still had a little circulation, just no structural support. The splinting was to keep it from getting torn off while using medications to help solve some problems before other management could be done. In time, enough inflammation and tissue health was restored to start recombining the tissue that had separated due to the buildup of scar tissue. Even if the underlying bone never quite went back together, the overlying skin separation was resolved enough to make walking serviceable. In the very end, Stitches married another string rescue in Moxie's care. If memory serves, they were eventually released together to take another stab at life. Life's like that.

Pidgey


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Lady T....thanks for the support. I have upped the feedings to 6 cc/feeding. he starts getting antzy (sp?) at about that, so I just figure don't push it. I will definitely get a good 25 cc Kaytee into him per 24 hrs.; and he's a small bird, so that sounds like a pretty good days worth o' eatin' for one his size.

I have this stuff called Ultraflora...that's a probiotic, no ? Should I mix some in with the Kaytee ?

I am keeping him on heat...yes, only about 40% of his feathers are what I would call clean and free of the grime....so I know that those other 60% aren't doing much of an insulation job right now.

KY Jelly, eh ???.......I dunno if I wanna touch THAT comment with a 10-foot pole.....


Phil...well, thanks for your short story...jeez...compared to Moxie's foot...this guy has it easy. Ick....amazing you were able to stabilize it. 

Actually....after 2 doses of meds, his foot looks less inflamed & angry now than it did last night. I even saw him standing solely on the right foot a while ago.

Grimaldy, I took another sweep over the foot...dang, if I must say so myself, Ivette and I did a pretty good job at cutting thru all of the wrapped hairs the first time around. Upon moving the flesh around a bit, there IS some hair/grime nestled in those crevasses....so I will work on those.

So far, so good..... Thanks again, all.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jaye said:


> I have this stuff called Ultraflora...that's a probiotic, no ? Should I mix some in with the Kaytee ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I'm not familiar with Ultraflora, if it is a probiotic I would think it would be fine - maybe 1/8 tsp with formula, 1 x day.

Well, , KY is a lubricant so I think it would work fine. I don't believe it has petroleum in it like Vaseline.

And to Pidgey - I don't remember seeing this pigeon in one of Moxie's threads but I have never seen anything quite so bad. Great job all around on this one!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> And to Pidgey - I don't remember seeing this pigeon in one of Moxie's threads but I have never seen anything quite so bad. Great job all around on this one!


Well, as you can see in the top picture, there wasn't much holding it on. The bone had dissolved underneath and so separated. About all that was still holding were some tendons and enough scar tissue to hold the remaining arterial blood flow and a return vein. Normally, you'd get your vet to just clip it off and seal it over but we wanted to give it a chance, seeing as how that nearly dismembered foot still had enough bloodflow to stay viable.

So, she rigged the bracing, swathed it in Prep H to help diminish some of the inflammation and put the bird on antibiotics to work on the inside. In time, we started drawing the foot back together and digging some of the obstructive scar tissue out so that the underlying flesh could re-knit back together. He had that ring groove of scar tissue that had to be dealt with just a little bit at a time and allowed to heal back properly, about like digging a scab out of a deep wound that won't heal until it's cleared. Baby steps. Immense patience. And an _awful_ lot of splint wrapping.

No, this never appeared in a thread before. I only brought it up now to give a better idea of what can be done and just how much hope we shouldn't give up sometimes. This bird in the current thread has a similar ring on that one foot, albeit not as bad, which is what reminded me of Moxie's bird.

Pidgey


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

So, Phil...other than trying best we can to clear out that "ring" of detritus as Grimaldy suggests, and keeping the bird on antibiotics....is there anything else I should do about that particular area ? Or is getting it cleaned up and medicated really the best we can do ?

Will scar tissue eventually "bridge" a ring like that ? At this point, I am wondering if what is on the "far" side of the ring (i.e. away from the leg and towards the toenal) will just plain eventually fall off on its own accord.

Update: I have done 3 courses of meds thus far, at 12-hr. intervals...and she/he is clearly using the bad foot significantly more now than last night.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can't quite tell from the pictures. You're going to have to assess whether the underlying bone has been affected. What you can get is that as the constriction pressures the underlying skin first, tissue second and bone last, the structure of each layer gives way. When a ring groove forms in the bone, it makes for a weak spot. That can be dangerous as was well demonstrated in this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/injured-pigeon-on-my-balcony-15077.html

If the bone's okay, then the flesh above (which is pretty thin) will eventually fill back in and the skin will repair itself, possibly without any meddling on your part. That's something you're just going to have to watch. If the bone was a tad affected then the bird just needs to be kept so that he doesn't have a chance to overstress it while it regains strength and the enveloping skin gets worked back. If the skin is healed all the way around then a break is simply going to heal as breaks do. If it were to break without the skin being fairly well repaired, it can break off just like the bird in that thread I linked.

All we can do is provide you with some examples of what we have seen so that you can think your way through this one. Usually in life, what you least expect is what ends up happening too doggone often, ya' know!

Pidgey


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

*Update*

Hi all.

Lil' pidge is doing extremely well. The swelling is down on his feet, although they will always be malformed for sure. But they are not as red and angry-looking as when Ivor found him. 

He has been getting a little time out of his enclosure, and he has actually been walking on them quite well...so well that he is able to scamper away from me trying to catch him (good news....he's a tricky lil' guy/girl).

Eating lots of seed and formula. Taking in a good 5 or more cc of seed a day plus 20 cc formula/day. Am continuing with the meds. He is on day # 4 of them. I will probably stop the cipro after day #8 and cut back the medacam to 1 dose/day then. I wanna see if cutting back the painkiller/anti-inflammatory has a negative effect on his feet/ability to walk. After all, he won't have the meds when he is back in the wild.

Have slowly been picking out toe detritus from the crevasses...need to do some more of that, though...admittedly.

Will give a bath tonight. May do a worming dose in a day or so.

If things continue along these lines, am figuring I can do a soft release in a couple of more weeks. Dependent on whether I can get his weight up real good and see if the feet are stable and don't relapse into infection/pain.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Oh George, Thank you so much for the update, I was thinking about him today, I'm so happy that the baby is getting better and eating that well. 

Ivette


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

By the way Jaye,

Once the string-hair injury crack fills up with blood, don't disturb it. If you do, it will not regrow connecting tissue and the bird will lose the toe. You won't have any difficulty seeing what I am talking about; the string crevice will look black.

In short either get it all on the first try or leave it alone. Don't go back.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Jaye..........So glad to hear the little one is doing so well. You are certainly doing a great job with him/her.

Please keep us posted.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is great news. I'm so happy he is doing well.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

By the way Jaye,

Good work!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks for the support...and thanks for that tip, Grimaldy...I am glad you told me.

I just bathed him/her in Dawn again. jeez...the water was absolutely black afterwards...and he/she is STILL not anywhere near completely clean !!! However, more of the feather color is now showing....she looks more like a bird with each bathing  But enough baths for a while....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What color is the baby?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

...um......

THIS color: 

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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

*Update*

Hi all.

Things continue to progress, slowly but in the right direction.

The lil' guy's weight is definitely up...he has moved from emaciated to "recovering-anorexic" weight. His keelbone protrudes, but nothing like t was 6 days ago. This worried me immensely. My avian vet has always told me, for any species, there is a "point of no return" ~ where the weight has dropped so much that even huge meals consistently cannot bring the bird back. This lil' one was the most underweight pidge I have ever seen.

I am done with working the feet. It was quasi-successful. I was able to get out a little more detritus from a few toes...not much...and the other toes looked pretty darn clean. 

The dead rear toe I had mentioned in the initial post...basically fell off by itself yesterday. It was really just dead tissue at this point...black and shriveled. I noticed him not using that foot so when I examined it, the toe was hanging on by a thread, so I snipped the remaining tissue off. Small spot of blood on his heel, that's about it. Clearly he is glad not to have the discomfort now...he is using the foot more. Swelling is way, way down.

We move into an area of concern...I am flat-out of Medacam, having lent the remainder to Elizabethy last week. So...he gets his final doses today, at which point I'll switch to the remaining Ibuprofen solution I have. I say this because I am concerned that the Medacam (which is the animal equivalent to our vicodin) has been so effective that this is why he is using the bad foot so much. Once off it, I do hope he will be able to manage w/o such a strong painkiller.

Holistically speaking...watching this lil girl/guy...it sometimes makes me sad. It has taken several days for him not to be scared to death of Gatsby (the King) and Nessie (the feral). They coexist better now, but this lil' guy tends to run and hide from their presence. I found him yesterday under the sink cupboard in my kitchen (granted, a brilliant hiding place !). The past 24hrs. he is finally doing some happy/relaxed displays (stretching of legs and wings, vocalizing more)...although for the most part he tends to retreat to corners and try to just go...invisible and unnoticed.

Frightened of his own kind...unable to socially interact normally. Scared with good reason, as he was probably mercilessly picked on by other ferals for all of his life. So the rehab will be as much psychological as physical for him. I mean, not to wax philisophical...but...what kind of life has this poor little bird led thus far ? If Ivor hadn't had the eagle-eyes to spot him form her car while driving by...he probably would have been dead within 24 hrs. What would have been the point of it all ? A short life of pain and suffering, and a slow spiraling death...with little to no experience of flying free and being a healthy feral with half a chance.

Anyway...I digress. Things couldn't be going much better for her/him at the moment...so for this, I am very glad.

Cheers for now.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Your post makes me very happy. Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing with this little one. He's going to be a looker when he gets all well.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Thank you Jaye, you are amazing, he looks so much better and now I can see his real color, I still remember when I found him, he or she has a big part of my heart, he is so sweet and when I brought him home, he was always quiet during the ride and in the same place, he let me do everything, I'm happy that he is improving, and I told you this before you are my Hero!!

Ivette


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Jaye...........your post was so reassuring. Makes what we do seem so very worthwhile. The little one is sure looking so much better. What a great job you are doing!!! Please keep us posted.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for all the wonderful supportive care you have provided this very needy little one. Sure gives me a warm feeling in my heart.

If you suspect worms and don't want to use a wormer, you can start giving this youngster a garlic capsule everyday. (softgel). That will help build his/her immunities, help the plumage, as well as ridding it of unwanted critters. You can only use it if the bird is mature, about 2 months of age and older, and has no upset stomach issues. The benefits of using garlic are endless. 

Most definitely he/she has some psychological as well as the physical aspects of healing to deal with. I'm sure once he/she feels better his/her mental state will be better too.

My compliments goes out to you, Jaye. Thank you, Ivette, for rescuing the little one.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You have done an amazing job...as usual. In a way...remings me of my little Cricket.
Great eye Ivette to spot this one.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I am excited to say that this little guy will be coming to live with me and my pijies tomorrow. Jaye is kind enough to drive him up to me and he will go into the littler aviary with the doves and gentler birds, with plenty of hiding holes. We're excitedly awaiting his arrival, of course I'll post some pictures after he gets here.  Thanks to Ivette and Jaye and everyone who has helped him get this far.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Oh my God, I'm so glad is going to be with you MaryJane, Jaye told me about this, I really appreciate it, he is a sweet thing or she, I really want to see pics, I know he is not even close to how I found him, Thank you so much for your big heart, and of course Thanks to Jaye also he is amazing and always help when any pigi needs him.
Many hugs for you and to my lovely pigeon... you should find a name for him or her I was calling him condorito but he is a beautiful bird now... 

Ivette


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Ivor said:


> Oh my God, I'm so glad is going to be with you MaryJane, Jaye told me about this, I really appreciate it, he is a sweet thing or she, I really want to see pics, I know he is not even close to how I found him, Thank you so much for your big heart, and of course Thanks to Jaye also he is amazing and always help when any pigi needs him.
> Many hugs for you and to my lovely pigeon... you should find a name for him or her I was calling him condorito but he is a beautiful bird now...
> 
> Ivette


Condorito it is! He is probably used to that now too. I think it's the perfect name for him, he is still a little condor even if he is bigger now.  You're welcome to visit him anytime you're in the area.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Thank you Maryjane, I will love to visit you and Condorito... sure I'll take your offer. 

Ivette


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

MJ, you are a lovely person!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Condorito's arrival has been moved to Saturday morning so we will keep you updated!  The weather has been beautiful so it will be a nice adjustment time for him too.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Can't wait to see his pictures!!!!! take many many picsssss... Thank you Thank you Thank you Maryjane.

Ivette


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

*!!!!!*

Omigosh...i didn't realize my usually scatterbrained/untogetherness was causing people to await this thread patiently !

Sorry....

So the lil' GIRL (I think he's a she...as she will sit an egg ~ might even have been her egg, I am not sure as there were 2 birdies here...but I digress) is safe and sound up at MJ's.

Quite a pigeon-inn she has up there. Great to have finally met you, MJ, and all of your fine guests as well ! 

Here is a pic of Condorito completely healed up and (amazingly) fully-feathered again. The way her feet healed is just amazing. She lost 1-1/2 toes, but nevertheless, she has full use and capabilities of both feet. They look great.

A Miraculous recovery...I swear when I picked her up from Ivor I wasn't sure this lil' bird would pull through.

Compare these pics to the day when I found her....amazing !!!!

Thanks again Ivor...and MJ ! I will miss the lil' pidge...but MJ says I have visitation rights (!)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Job well done.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Oh my God!!! I can't believe is the same pidgi that I found, is like a metamorphosis, Oh Jaye she is very good looking and those feet, I can't believe it, is like seen a different bird. Thank you again, and Maryjane I'm so glad you are close enough so I can go to see my baby some day. you made my day 

Ivette


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Condorito is so beautiful. You guys are wonderful.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Yes! Please come any time you like to visit her. See the other thread about her for her update; she's doing great!


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## Elizabethy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Yay! Hooray!!!*

She looks FANTASTIC!!

Y'all are AMAZING!!!

Yay! Hooray! Ivette and Jay and Maryjane- you _*ROCK!*_


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