# Flightless Pigeon in Tokyo --need help!



## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

Hi everyone, 
I live in central Tokyo and feed a few flocks of pigeons near my apartment. In one of the flocks I noticed a pigeon that always seemed separated from the rest of the flock (seeming a little slower and somewhat dazed). I ran into her last week at night and realized something was wrong. 

I fed her and hoped for the best. Then day/night after day/night I have been seeing her shivering and cold (it has been really cold and snowing/raining/sleet this past month). So, when last night I went to the grocery store -- where she usually is (after a day of cold sleet) I saw her standing near the door's entrance hoping to catch some warmth. She was wet, alone and shivering in the dark. 

Couldn't take seeing this anymore (after a week) and brought her home, put her in a box (as I have read on this and other forums) warmed her up, gave her food and water, etc...

Now it is a few days later and she still seems very nervous (almost traumatized). She is eating but not drinking so much water - I put a camera over her box and filmed her for about 3 hours today and she only looked to take one small sip (and the water never seems to be touched when I am not filming). However, through it all she seems fairly alert 

Problem is, she can't fly. I have looked her over and can't find any breaks, and her wings do not droop - thus the shape her wings look OK, but I am no expert. 
*If you look at the photos I have taken (when we were giving her a bath and cleaning her wounds) her wings do not look symmetrical. The right wing seems to have many more feathers than the left wing. The left wing looks like it is missing many feathers (that the right wing has). Could this be the reason she can't fly? Will these grow back in? *

Her poop looks OK (she actually seems to defecate at least once an hour or more) - Is that normal? (a poop machine). 

Could she just be exhausted? It has been a cold winter. 

Is there anything I can do to help speed her mending time? Could this be something else? Something I can't see? I am no expert and this is the first time for me to care for any animal since I was a child. 

Also, she had some really nasty looking scrapes on her legs (as per the photos) and we gave her a bath and put some cream on them to fight any infection... but again, I don't really know what I am doing?

As I said, I live in central Tokyo is a smallish apartment (with a balcony) so, having a feral pigeon is not a very good situation, but I will take care of her as long as needed. 

Any help or ideas on why she is not flying would be of great help. 

*By the way, this is Japan. There are NO Animal centers, Wildlife Centers or anything of the kind. This is NOT an option.* It is basically us, or put her back on the street to die. So this is really important for us. Do you think she will fly again?

(Also, this in an aside, but could she be a young pigeon? Her feet look amazingly intact (for living in central Tokyo) -- and her neck seems to be very short?) - could this have any bearing? 

Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from anyone on this board.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Thank you for rescuing the bird, she definitely needs some major intervention.

Have you checked to see if the keel/breast bone is sharp or protruding?

Could you post a clear picture of her poop?

Put a heating pad under her, set on low with towel between pad and bird. Do not bathe bird, she does not have enough energy to keep herself warm because she is sick or starved. Treat cuts with a little bit of neosporin or other topical antibiotic.

She could be starving and she may need to gain weight. Birds that are under weight or sick have no energy to fly. Here is a link on hand feeding and much more: 

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/peasandcorn.htm

She may need to be hand fed to help get her caught up on her weight. You can hand/force feed her peas or corn. That will help her with being more active. *


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am glad you are helping this poor lovely bird. If she has cuts might she have been injured by a cat or another bird? Others on this site might want to comment on whether she might need antibiotics or some cleaning of the cuts.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

As to her age, in an adult or well grown bird nearing adulthood, the cere at the top of the beak will be white and firm. Maybe discoloured, but basically white. A young one tends to have a softer, more pink/gray cere.

Pooping sounds OK to me. They are indeed little poop machines. Provided it isn't just green and runny, it should indicate that she eats. Their water intake is not vast, unless they have a kidney problem or are very dehydrated, and she knows where it is when she requires it.

Non flying could indicate a range of different things. If she has a number of flight feathers missing, flying would be difficult, If she has an illness which can cause neurological problems, she could be suffering a (temporary one hopes) paralysis of the wings. Some bacterial illnesses can cause problems with the flight mechanism. Etc.

Do you have a gram scale you could weigh her on?


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

First of all good work on taking this bird in. Im surprised she lasted the week until u could get her. So does she feel skinny to you with a sharp breast bone?

Can we get a pic of her face to determine age.

Also would like a clear close up of the left wing at back, I think Im seeing pins and redness, if so could be circovirus. Will attach a pic link for you to compare. Waiting for Krzys to send me link, in the meantime. Sounds like you got all good advice. You can take some frozen peas and corn, thaw it in warm water do not cook and then pop the into her mouth one at a time about 40 to 50 a day total. See my video link on this forum of how to do that, feeding a bird that wont eat. 

When I get the link , compare the pic to the ones u have of her back and tell me if they look similar, the pins will be there and the skin will look red and swollen. I cant tell in the pic you gave if just pins or wet or what. 

Anyway at this point if poops are good, (post pics) and you feed water and give her lots of rest, she should recover nicely. Also I m shocked and find it hard to believe in a huge city like Japan that there are no animal rescues or vets???? That cant be so. Regardless, Im sure you are doing this bird good


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Thanks Skyeking*

Thanks so much for your replies. 
Skyeking: 

_Have you checked to see if the keel/breast bone is sharp or protruding?_
*Yes, it feels a little proturding, but I am not really sure what it should feel like either way, I tried to put some dots on the page as to how it feels and also to show her profile. She seems to mostly have her head retracted and close to her body like in the pics. Could this just be her breed or does this say anything about her condition? Does this help at all? 
*

_Could you post a clear picture of her poop?_
*Please see the pic, the material I have on there is medical gauze, as it is soft and we can change it out easily (on top of paper too). *

_Put a heating pad under her, set on low with towel between pad and bird. _
*We have just been using a hot water bottle since we got her, and she seems to REALLY like as that is always where she likes to stand. Just went out and bought a cushioned heating pad and put my hand there to give it perspective (size). Does this look OK? *

_Treat cuts with a little bit of neosporin or other topical antibiotic._
*Did that. *

_You can hand/force feed her peas or corn. That will help her with being more active._
*I got some food from the shop that is specifically for pigeons. It has corn, beans, flour, wheat, soba, and lots of seeds. Would peas be better? *

Thanks for any help you may be able to give me


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Thanks John_D*

Thanks for your help John:

_"As to her age, in an adult or well grown bird nearing adulthood, the cere at the top of the beak will be white and firm. Maybe discoloured, but basically white. A young one tends to have a softer, more pink/gray cere."_
*Can you determine from the pics that I have posted below? *

_Pooping sounds OK to me. They are indeed little poop machines. Provided it isn't just green and runny, it should indicate that she eats. Their water intake is not vast, unless they have a kidney problem or are very dehydrated, and she knows where it is when she requires it._
*I have included another pic of her poop at a more distant angle, just for reference and if it helps at all.* 

_Non flying could indicate a range of different things. If she has a number of flight feathers missing, flying would be difficult, If she has an illness which can cause neurological problems, she could be suffering a (temporary one hopes) paralysis of the wings. Some bacterial illnesses can cause problems with the flight mechanism. Etc._
*I really hope this is temporary*

_Do you have a gram scale you could weigh her on?_
*Please see the pic, she came in at 290.5g. *


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Thanks CBL*

_ So does she feel skinny to you with a sharp breast bone?_
*Yes, she does, and it does not feel so sharp as it does protruding. *

_Can we get a pic of her face to determine age._
*Do any of the pics below help? *

_Also would like a clear close up of the left wing at back, I think Im seeing pins and redness, if so could be circovirus. Will attach a pic link for you to compare. Waiting for Krzys to send me link, in the meantime. _
*I have attached two to for you to see. Also, I am not sure what circovirus is? 
Thanks for any links or help*


_You can take some frozen peas and corn, thaw it in warm water do not cook and then pop the into her mouth one at a time about 40 to 50 a day total. See my video link on this forum of how to do that, feeding a bird that wont eat. _
*Could you tell me where in the forum this video would be? Thanks!*

_When I get the link , compare the pic to the ones u have of her back and tell me if they look similar, the pins will be there and the skin will look red and swollen. I cant tell in the pic you gave if just pins or wet or what. _
*Will do. *

_"Also I m shocked and find it hard to believe in a huge city like Japan that there are no animal rescues or vets???? That cant be so. Regardless, Im sure you are doing this bird good "_
*
Tokyo is kind of like Manhattan and NY State. There is Tokyo-ku which would be similar to the borough of Manhattan, but in Tokyo there are 23 more ku's (or boroughs). The greater Tokyo area is the 23 boroughs + the suburbs which make up Tokyo-to (which would be similar to New York State). It is huge but there is little sympathy for our poor feral pigeon friend. 

Just looked it up in a dictionary, they - feral pigeons are considered:
がいちょう 害鳥
a harmful [an injurious] bird; a bird that does harm 《to the rice crop》
〈総称〉 vermin. 

I doubt they would even spend the money to euthanize her humanely as they are not seen as worthy of even living (sad to say). Asia is not a very welcoming place for animals (other than small expensive show dogs). 
And it is illegal to own one (or any wild bird), so actually showing up at a vet would probably give me some problems, especially considering I am a foreigner . Different strokes for different folks. 

Actually, I just tried to upload an attachment to show you more, but it says I am exceeding my attachment quota. Is this per day or total? 
Sorry for so many questions and thanks for the help guys*


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ok awesome, you're amazing lol. Poop looks good. Bird is an adult. Profile of weight with red dots not bad at all lol. To be expected when not feeling well or not eating much for a week. If she is not eating well, and you soak the corn and peas from the freezer in warm water, you wont have to worry so much about her not drinking.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ok the feathers look good as well, so who knows why she is feeling ill, but the best is what you are doing for now. The weight is not even that bad, hang on..brb will weight my small racer and compare, but I think that is not a bad weight for a feral... hang on.. Ok she is only 343, she is lean but not skinny so yours is not bad at all for a wild pigeon. Im sure she will fatten up with your help.

Pouring seeds into the mouth.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2evuo03nv8rp559/IMG_6771.MOV?dl=0

Same thing side angle
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jii02hie7psxbp3/IMG_6773.MOV?dl=0

And finally, feeding peas, corn or peanuts one at a time. You can do this in your lap or on a folded towel if you put her legs back so she can lay on her chest.

http://youtu.be/jXnYzgSX8Jg


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

> Actually, I just tried to upload an attachment to show you more, but it says I am exceeding my attachment quota. Is this per day or total?


In total. I have now removed the limit (which I did not actually know had been set)


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Thanks to CBL, John, cwebster*

Thanks for all your support including Skyeking, CBL, John and CWebster. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but when I was posting last night it was pretty late and I went to bed. Lucky for me it is a National Holiday today and we are able to rest and relax. It feels really good to be able to speak to people about this, so I don't feel so anxious about everything I don't know, so a big thanks to all that are helping us and *"Navy"* -- the name my wife gave the bird. 

So, 
_Profile of weight with red dots not bad at all lol. To be expected when not feeling well or not eating much for a week._
*Does her weight seem to be OK? Does she sound a little on the skinny side? *

_So does she feel skinny to you with a sharp breast bone?_
*Sorry to ask about his again, but I did not really get an answer as to why this was asked several times. Yes, she does feel like she has a protruding breast bone, that runs vertically - whether it it sharp or not, I cannot tell. I am going to feed some local pigeons today and I will pick up one of the more friendly ones to get a comparison to tell you about later, but this one bit of information I would like to know more about, and why it was asked a couple of times. 
Thanks. *

_And finally, feeding peas, corn or peanuts one at a time. You can do this in your lap or on a folded towel if you put her legs back so she can lay on her chest._
*I am a little bit hesitant to try and feed her. It seems that whenever we touch her (to clean her dropping) or to move her, once she it put down, she is always trembling. I am not sure if this is out of fear, but we try and touch her as little as possible as we do not want scare her. Also, this is what we are feeding her (see pic below), the man at the shop said this is what people feed their show and racing pigeons, but to be honest, he might have been just trying to sell it to me. It does have a pic of a pigeon on it. Does this look like what she should be eating too? 

She is very different from other pigeons in the neighbourhood, most of whom are very friendly to humans. She basically seems terrified of us and is not friendly at all -and we try and not impose ourselves, other than when we need to care for her. *

_Profile of weight with red dots not bad at all lol. To be expected when not feeling well or not eating much for a week_.
*I am still concerned about her retracted head. She never seems to bring it up like a normal pigeon (see pic). She was like this even before I brought her home for the last few days we saw her in the rain / snow. Is this her just trying to conserve body heat? Is it something else? *
*
I have also included a pic of her latest poop, as it looks different. In volume it seems to be much larger than anything she has dropped before, but I am not sure about colour / texture as it appears to have white fluid in it as well. 

One good thing to report, when I went to clean her soiled papers, she "took a swipe at me" - or seemed to be either angry, annoyed or scared? But she tried to bite my hand a few times when I got to close to her. Is this a healthy sign of ..."self preservation" or "get away from me, I don't like you?"
It seemed good as she hasn't done that before, and also, she does appear a little more alert than before.*


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

You are doing a great job! The poop looks good, she looks alert, 290 is about what our pet pigeon weighs. Her breastbone protrudes but is not sharp; your bird may just be hungry. Am hoping she doesn't have whatever circovirus is. Keep up the good work! If she is swiping at you she is starting to feel more at home. Great job rescuing her!


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ok read my answer at the end of each of your questions as well 



Shibuya said:


> Thanks for all your support including Skyeking, CBL, John and CWebster. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but when I was posting last night it was pretty late and I went to bed. Lucky for me it is a National Holiday today and we are able to rest and relax. It feels really good to be able to speak to people about this, so I don't feel so anxious about everything I don't know, so a big thanks to all that are helping us and *"Navy"* -- the name my wife gave the bird.
> 
> _Profile of weight with red dots not bad at all lol. To be expected when not feeling well or not eating much for a week._
> *Does her weight seem to be OK? Does she sound a little on the skinny side? * Weight is fine for now for a sick bird, compare breast meat on the sides of the breast bone to the other freindly ferals and you will have an idea.
> ...


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ok in your post I also responded in kind after your commnets, see post below this one thanks or I will copy and paste my answers in next post....

And the food is great, if the bird is eating on its own enough to produce those poops and it is wet enough then it IS getting enough food AND water and dont worry about it. Dont worry about the head being tucked in as well, they do that when either sick or resting or scared. So for what it is now, it is all normal behavior.

And yes the weight is not too skinny as far a sick birds go. My healthy hen was a bit more as stated today.

Lets see how it goes tomorrow.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*CBL and Webster -*

Hi, and thanks as always. 
So, I know I have a strange way of communicating, but it seems to be the easiest way for me to be clear and without meandering on about things that are not so important. 

Anyway, again thanks for your keen insights and help. 

_Her breastbone protrudes but is not sharp; your bird may just be hungry. Am hoping she doesn't have whatever circovirus is._

_....compare breast meat on the sides of the breast bone to the other freindly ferals and you will have an idea._

*Today I went out and caught another bird about the same size and colour as her and felt her breast. Yes, she has a lot less meat to her when compared with the other bird, and her vertical breastbone does feel much more protruding than the comparison bird. Is this just from being hungry? She seems to be able to walk, but does not move her wings very much. I have however, seen her stretch them out once or twice, but she has never attempted flight - either inside or outside. *

_BEFORE I FORGET, check her blink rate, when sick they blink slowly and or keep eyes half closed. When feelilng better will blink faster and when feeling great, it will be hard to detect the blink it will be so fast._

*I was watching her for a while, and her eyes were not kept half open, but in fact she seemed to blink faster, but not so fast. *

_We just want to determine how bad off she is. Also if very light, could need medication for worms or parasites._
*She does feel pretty light for her size, how would I know if she has parasites or worms? Also, are these transferable to humans? From what I read it doesn't seem like anything pigeons do, but I thought I would ask. *

_"...she is living on eggshells thinking you are a predator and may harm her, IF you do as I say and just grab up the bird like in my video, hold her close to your chest under your chin and coo to her or rub her head, she should immediately realize you mean no harm and will recognize pigeon cooing noises. I make a squaker type pishing noise that seems to calm them. 
So instead of draggin on the uncertantly and fear, you get that over with asap."_

*I followed your video found here: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g5w93qhgqbr24sz/IMG_6766.MOV?dl=0
Is this the one you meant? 
I tried for about 20 minutes, but I think it is going to take some time, I will tell you how it goes. *

Thanks CBL for taking the time to contact me. 
The one thing I am wondering, is basically if she has a protruding breast bone, which she does, means she can't fly because she lacks the muscle power? Is this correct? 

Again thanks to all!


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Shibuya said:


> Today I went out and caught another bird about the same size and colour as her and felt her breast. Yes, she has a lot less meat to her when compared with the other bird, and her vertical breastbone does feel much more protruding than the comparison bird. *Is this just from being hungry?*


It can be from not eating enough: either lack of food, or lack of appetite, usually caused by a disease.
It can also be a sign of worm infestation, or maybe some disease that makes the bird throw up food.



Shibuya said:


> _You can hand/force feed her peas or corn. That will help her with being more active._
> I got some food from the shop that is specifically for pigeons. It has corn, beans, flour, wheat, soba, and lots of seeds. Would peas be better?


You force feed a bird that can't eat or drink on its own. In that case it's best to feed them frozen peas and corn, melted in warm water.
But if your bird can eat and drink water, the pigeon mix you got is perfect.
Just remember, when eating solid food they also need grit to help digest it. That may not be your first emergency, but it's also a thing to consider in the next few days.



Shibuya said:


> One good thing to report, when I went to clean her soiled papers, she "took a swipe at me" - or seemed to be either angry, annoyed or scared? But she tried to bite my hand a few times when I got to close to her. Is this a healthy sign of ..."self preservation" or "get away from me, I don't like you?"
> It seemed good as she hasn't done that before, and also, she does appear a little more alert than before.


Yes, it means that she is
1) not feeling so sick
2) getting used to the new place, starting to defend her new territory
3) not so afraid of you anymore



Shibuya said:


> _"As to her age, in an adult or well grown bird nearing adulthood, the cere at the top of the beak will be white and firm. Maybe discoloured, but basically white. A young one tends to have a softer, more pink/gray cere."_
> Can you determine from the pics that I have posted below?


Not sure if that was answered before: the cere is obviously white. It's NOT a baby.



Shibuya said:


> _And finally, feeding peas, corn or peanuts one at a time. You can do this in your lap or on a folded towel if you put her legs back so she can lay on her chest._
> It seems that whenever we touch her (to clean her dropping) or to move her, once she it put down, she is always trembling. I am not sure if this is out of fear, but we try and touch her as little as possible as we do not want scare her.
> ...
> She is very different from other pigeons in the neighbourhood, most of whom are very friendly to humans. She basically seems terrified of us and is not friendly at all -and we try and not impose ourselves, other than when we need to care for her. [/B]


Again, if the bird is eating enough there's no need to force feed. But if she isn't eating enough, you should worry more about feeding her properly than about stressing her.

Trembling is a sign of fear, yes. But it's not something to wory about so much. A pigeon will strart trembling even when a bit afraid in the presence of another bigger/stronger pigeon, something that can happen all the time.

I am not sure how tame the other pigeons in your neighbourhood are, but for a feral pigeon it's normal to be afraid of a person that took it away from its normal surroundings and put it in a box, in a strange place. 

But if she started to bite you, she may not be so afraid anymore, as I already wrote above.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

No the thinness is from hardly eating when you saw her on the ground for a week Im sure. She needs time to recover some energy and strength. Also is from not feeling well in the first place so time will tell what she may need. She could be old, sick or both. This is to be expected. If you can buy some RAW shelled peanuts or ones IN the shell and you take them out for her, offer them to her as they are good for everything, protein, fats that she needs when sick. Worms or whatever she may or may not have are not contagious to humans, just dont eat her poop lol. As with any wild or even tame animal, wash your hands before you eat food. The video I may make it look easy, thats because it is easy, so if she is eating on her own thats great, dont worry about hand feeding her, just save it to use as the method to give any meds or pills you may need to OR at the very least 10 peanuts a day 

No that is not the video, that just shows how to hold the bird if you want to handle to make her feel comfortable. I will try to find vid of feeding the peanuts.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/jXnYzgSX8Jg

See above video on feeding peanuts, or pills. That video you quoted is for her to be handled and for her not to be scared. If she slaps or pecks you that is a good sign that she is gaining strength. 

You will have to look into her mouth and see if she has any white in there. Now if she does have a little bit of it and you bring her back to health it may resolve itself as the trich if she has it to a small degree with go down to normal levels when they are in top form. If not, she would need medication for it. You can go online to Global pigeon supplies, Foys Pigeon supplies, Jedds, or Seigals and get any of the meds or drugs or canker stuff you need, we all do that here. Not expensive. If this was a bird I have found and not you, I would be giving a general antibiotic and see how she does. Now that said, if she was attacked by a predator and got her feet injured and was sore and didnt fly because she felt pain and was suffering then because of all that didnt eat and forage, got light and weak, then giving her the time to recover, good food and rest, she will regain her strength and weight and will be releasable in about a month. 


Regarding the flying, I can almost guarantee that she can, but when light, they have a tendency to 'float' when they fly between beats, so you CAN test that if it is buggin you that much and just toss her gently into the air about 4 feet of the ground near something soft like a couch to see what the wings actually do. I say she is not attempting to fly because she doesnt feel well and is in strange surroundings right. Give her time. 

In case I didnt say it before that bag of feed is great.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Also forgot to mention, go find some grit for her too at pet store, she needs some grit sprinkled in with her seed or a small amount per day in a separate dish like 1 teaspoon. Large pigeon grit not budgie grit. Where u bought the food ask him he may have, even chicken grit may do for short term.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Also read that when birds expend energy after a race and are depleted as this bird is now. They give electrolytes in water as they read that plain water will also dehydrate by taking minerals out of tissue, cant remember where I read that but I had that info in computer, so they say they use a solution like pedialyte or electrolyte to get the bird back in good form FAST. One breeder does this....

When our pigeons return home from a race they drink our special blend of water additives to assist in recovery. In one gallon of water we place one tablespoon of glucose powder, 1/4 teaspoon of chicken vitamin electrolytes, one teaspoon of Probios Horse probiotic and 1/4 teaspoon of iodized salt. They will bounce right back on this mix.

Now you can substitute with what u can find. Can be chicken or bird does not have to be horse lol. You can get pedialyte at our drug stores in the baby section where they have diapers. Just an option, in the short term you can give 1 cup of water with 1 teaspoon of sugar and a pinch of salt and use that as the water for a few days. Alternatively you can give gatorade with no dye, half strength with water and it is a bit too salty straight up.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Thanks to CBL, jondove for help with Navy*

Hi everyone... sorry about my late reply, but I was working and I was also busy. I went down to the shop to buy materials for Navy to build her a bigger enclosure. It is about 1m / 50cm - and again I left my camera going all day to record what she was doing, but she was not moving around much. 

Is this space large enough for her? I live in a small apartment (think Manhattan small) and I am hesitant to put her on the balcony (too cold plus also predators). But I really do not want to be abusing this wild bird. 

*Anyway, when I came home today (just 10 minutes now) I was pretty concerned as her poop seemed really runny (see pic). However, I did add soaked corn to her diet today. Could this be the reason for this particular bowl movement? The reason I am concerned is that for 5 days her poop looked normal, but today it looks like this. Do I need to get her on some antibiotics? Can I get these from the pet shop? *

*Jondove: *

_"....It can be from not eating enough: either lack of food, or lack of appetite, usually caused by a disease.
It can also be a sign of worm infestation, or maybe some disease that makes the bird throw up food." _ 

*Are diseases that these birds have ever recoverable? Without intervention? Could she be battling a "bug" in the parlance of humans? *

_"...Just remember, when eating solid food they also need grit to help digest it. That may not be your first emergency, but it's also a thing to consider in the next few days."_

*I looked this up on the internet (sorry guys the last time I took care of an animal was when I was 15 and it was a cat - I am in my late 30s now) - but am not sure how to administer or give it to her? *

_Yes, it means that she is
1) not feeling so sick
2) getting used to the new place, starting to defend her new territory
3) not so afraid of you anymore_

*I am very happy to hear this! But she is still very skittish. *

*Thanks for all your advice and help Jondove! *

*CBL:* Hi and again thanks, you and this board have been a lifesaver! 

_"...If you can buy some RAW shelled peanuts or ones IN the shell and you take them out for her, offer them to her as they are good for everything, protein, fats that she needs when sick."_ 

*I have bought some and will tell you how things go. *

_" You will have to look into her mouth and see if she has any white in there. Now if she does have a little bit of it and you bring her back to health it may resolve itself as the trich if she has it to a small degree with go down to normal levels when they are in top form. If not, she would need medication for it. You can go online to Global pigeon supplies, Foys Pigeon supplies, Jedds, or Seigals and get any of the meds or drugs or canker stuff you need, we all do that here. Not expensive. If this was a bird I have found and not you, I would be giving a general antibiotic and see how she does._

*I haven't had time, but will do after I finish this email, the other question I would have is can I get general antibiotics at a pet shop? I am assuming it would not be safe to give her a human dose, and again I apologize for all of these questions, but I am a total novice "squab" if you will and have really no idea what I am doing, I am basically coming here for all my information.* 

_"... if she was attacked by a predator and got her feet injured and was sore and didnt fly because she felt pain and was suffering then because of all that didnt eat and forage, got light and weak, then giving her the time to recover, good food and rest, she will regain her strength and weight and will be releasable in about a month." _

*This is really what I am hoping for*

_"Regarding the flying, I can almost guarantee that she can, but when light, they have a tendency to 'float' when they fly between beats, so you CAN test that if it is buggin you that much and just toss her gently into the air about 4 feet of the ground near something soft like a couch to see what the wings actually do. I say she is not attempting to fly because she doesnt feel well and is in strange surroundings right. Give her time. "_

I will try that, but I think I will give it a few more days, til she has been here a week. Just do not want to traumatize her anymore than I have to. 

_"...Now you can substitute with what u can find. Can be chicken or bird does not have to be horse lol. You can get pedialyte at our drug stores in the baby section where they have diapers. Just an option, in the short term you can give 1 cup of water with 1 teaspoon of sugar and a pinch of salt and use that as the water for a few days. Alternatively you can give gatorade with no dye, half strength with water and it is a bit too salty straight up._

*Will get it tomorrow and tell you how it goes, till then I have been giving her the sugar / salt combination. 
*

*Btw... I have checked a few other birds, and this bird, Navy, really has very little breast meat. just to tell you for reference. *
*
I really just wanted to say thanks to you all, it has been really helpful getting all of this advice. I hope you can stay with us (Navy and I) and do apologise in advance for what may seem numskull like questions, but again we are totally doing this in the dark!*


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Absoluetly she can have a more watery poop from the extra fluid in soaked corn. I would to this, did you see the video I have of pouring a few mouthful of seeds in her mouth. I would do this. Pour some seeds in, give about 3 peanuts and about 5 peices of corn and do that twice a day. That way she has a balance of stuff and not too much. See if her water goes down a bit if she drinks and if not, dont worry too much, as long as she is on her feet and seems to be eating seed she will drink after she eats the seeds. Just keep an eye. As long as she is producing stool, then she is eating something.

Also if you can get an antibiotic at pet store, wont hurt. Something knocked her down and she was found weak for a reason, may be stress, may be age, may be illness, u wont know for sure but the due diligence you are doing it will come to light soon enough.

If it were me, I would do as I said above for food, then I would put on a course of meds and see how she was after that. 

At this point I wouldnt do more than that unless there were obvious signs of illness like canker in the mouth.

Give her a few more days. She needs to regain that lost strength, rest and fatten up. Keep an eye on the blink rate and see if she does normal behavior like preening and stretching wings and tail and legs. If you see these things then she is feeling better.

Things will progress from there. Just keep us posted when u can and ask any questions you want. NO question is stupid. 

Regarding human meds, tell me what u have on hand. Eg: I just today gave one of my males a 500mg amoxicillin capsule down the throat. I noted he was not coming off the perch to feed, and I know since I gave the vaccine he is a bit lighter, but not skinny by any means but OFF his feed, so that is not good. In an emergency and for only one or two days I can give that 'loading dose' of meds to get the bug down. Now he will have medicated water for the next 5 to 7 days to see how he picks up. In the meantime the flock is getting same treatment in water in the loft. Now I watch and wait.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

If she was eating enough of that pigeon mix and her poop was normal, I wouldn't have changed her diet. 

One of the explanations of her not being able to fly could be a form of PMV. That is a viral disease which affects the nervous system and can also affect the kidneys, in that case the bird will drink a lot of water, leading to such watery droppings. 
I hope that is not the case with your bird.

Birds can recover from some diseases without medication, it all depends on the type of disease and the bird's immune system. 
In the case of viral diseases, like PMV, antibiotics won't help anyway, unless there's also a secondary bacterial infection.

,,,

You don't "administer" grit, it's not a medicine. You just put it in a separate bowl and let the pigeon eat as much as she needs.

Birds don't have teeth, instead of teeth most birds use little stones (grit) to grind the food in their gizzzard. They also get calcium and other minerals from grit.

Grit can remain in the bird's gizzard for some time, so that's why I told you it may not be your first emergency. But you should get some in the next few days.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Thanks to CBL, jondove for help with Navy*

*Hi Everyone, we are getting along with Navy now for 10 days now, so I thought I would bring you up to speed. 

First, she seems to be adjusting a little better to her new environment, she doesn't seem so stressed out or scared. She bites me anytime I try and changer her food, water, clean her cage etc. With the bites, she does seem to have a lot more energy than when we found her, and I am really glad she is not outside as it is on and off snowing and quite cold. 

Her breast bone still feels quite protruding (sharp?) - I am still not sure why this is? It also does not feel symmetrical. Her breast also seems to lack any kind of muscles as compared with a normal pigeon. She is still very skinny all over, however, she seems to have a very healthy appetite and is eating at least 4 times a day. 

Her poops look normal, with one runny poop per day, I am wondering if that would be urine mixed? Actually, I am not even sure if she urinates or it is all absorbed with her poop????*

As to: 

_One of the explanations of her not being able to fly could be a form of PMV. That is a viral disease which affects the nervous system and can also affect the kidneys, in that case the bird will drink a lot of water, leading to such watery droppings. 
I hope that is not the case with your bird._

*Me too, but she seem to be drinking not so much, maybe only a few times a day if that. So I hope not. *

_At this point I wouldnt do more than that unless there were obvious signs of illness like canker in the mouth._

*She doesn't seem to have this problem, thankfully, but I will keep a loot out for that. *

_Give her a few more days. She needs to regain that lost strength, rest and fatten up. Keep an eye on the blink rate and see if she does normal behavior like preening and stretching wings and tail and legs. If you see these things then she is feeling better._

*This is something I am a little worried about. I have not seen her stretch her wings / tail out even once since she has been with me, nor have I seen her preening. She seems to be mobile, she can walk well enough, but the only time I have seen her move her wings is when I change something in her enclosure and she uses her wings in the same way a person would use their elbows to jab. She does this, but it is nowhere near as forceful or strong or as wide of an arc as I have watched other pigeons when they are fighting on the street. *

*She is very, very skinny, and I am pretty sure she was starving to death, and I am hoping this is why she is still flightless. 
Again, thanks for all your help and I look forward to reading your responses.*


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

If she seems to eat enough (or even more than normal) but still skinny, maybe she has a worm problem?

Urine is in fact the white part of a bird's droppings. In pigeons it is normally solid, but an occasional runny poop is not something to worry about too much.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Worms?*

Yes, she seems to eat enough, as evidenced by her poop, which is a lot, but she is still very skinny. If she has worms, how would I tell and how could I get rid of them? She seems alert, and can move well enough on her feet, but I can see she does not have the strength of a healthy bird. I would very much like to help her, and if this is maybe the problem she has I would like to address it. 

Thanks Jon.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*One Month*

Well it is actually one month to the day since we brought her home. She must have been in worse shape than I thought, as her recovery seems to be taking a long time. 

Last week she finally started cleaning herself - preening and started to stretch out her wings. One wing seems to have more range than the other, but under close observation I really cannot find anything wrong with her bones, there appears to be no break or damage. Just one wing seems to work better than the other. 

Her breast bone doesn't feel as sharp anymore and feels like there is a little more meat to her, but still small. We do not restrict her food so she seems to have a healthy appetite. 

She really loves peanuts. So we give her some now and then. 

She, no matter how much we handle her or spend time with her, seems to be an angry bird. Not sure angry is the right word but she will peck, pinch and bite no matter what. Not sure why this is, as other pigeons from her flock seem to be very nice and friendly. Could be that she is living in a small apartment with us. 

We let her out of her pen and she seems to like sitting in our kitchen when my wife is cooking dinner. She actually seems to prefer action and noise to silence and calm. 

All of her wounds have healed nicely and there is no sign of any troubles/infections there. 

Anyway.... 

I am wondering, if a pigeon is recovering, after a month and the bird still cannot fly... is this normal? Could it just take more time and what is the longest you have heard of a pigeon needing to get back on her feet (so to speak)? 

Again thanks for all the help this board has provided us. 











See a video of her here. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8wDLIGpH08

Pic of her in the kitchen just before my wife cooks dinner. - she does seem to like to spend time around her. 
Actually it seems she prefers my wife and I wonder if some birds are gender sensitive.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Great vid and super nice clean set up. She is dark check or almost black bird. Dont worry about the wing slap, she is just barely threatening and not necessarily because she is weak but because she really doesn't want to hurt you or think u are much of a threat. lol. I tend to agree with. 

Peanuts, give her a good ten to fifteen a day along with the rest of her feed, and offer her the peanuts in the palm of your hand each time, and if she doesnt take them, then put them in her bowl, this will help fatten her up and ya, I have big fat nice healthy LOOKING pigeons and sent in a poop sample and it came back with one plus meaning min, round worm and coccida. Now it could be from the two new males I got but I mixed all the poop samples from two lofts and 5 inside birds. All will be treated. That is a worm pill in the mouth from Foys or any other pigeon supply. So she has a good chance to have those and that is what is helping her to stay a bit thin. Not a bad idea to go online and get a general wormer/coccidia medication. I have both. One for worms and one for canker/coccidia.

That would take care of any guessing game. Also the fact that she is not flying at all is a contributing factor to not much breast muscle. Give it more time. If you want to test the theory of flight. put her up on a chair first thing before you feed her an put her feed or peanuts on floor and see if she just jumps down or opens those wings. Observe and or video as well once she does it one time and only as high as a chair for now that way if she is not able to use the wings symmetrically, you get a good idea without her getting hurt. 

Depending on which sex was nicer to her in the wild, is probably who she gravitates too, eg: women throwing food and bread opposed to men lol. There are ways to tame her down really quick. See if I can make a video today once and for all showing how to hold and pet a pigeon to make them feel comfortable. Within a few times she will not struggle and will be calmer. Do this a few times a day and she will insist on it and become quite the pest lol.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

CBL, looking forward to your video as our female Fiona bites. Our other female Phoebe flaps sometimes but no longer flies. She hops from place to place instead.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

*Ok as soon as I can....*



cwebster said:


> CBL, looking forward to your video as our female Fiona bites. Our other female Phoebe flaps sometimes but no longer flies. She hops from place to place instead.


Sorry the hubby was away all weekend and came in late. I will try for tomorrow ok, even if I have to do it myself  Will set a reminder.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*The Pigeons wings.*



CBL said:


> Sorry the hubby was away all weekend and came in late. I will try for tomorrow ok, even if I have to do it myself  Will set a reminder.


I am also very much looking forward to this video. 

Also, I was hoping someone could have a look at this video: 
http://youtu.be/ILx9zxiBnbE

It is of our pigeon, and her wings. Any insights or help would be greatly appreciated!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

just watched your video. great job showing her wings. if you gently move her wing does she extend it? our pigeon had a broken wing and now a feather sticks out but it looks otherwise normal. it took a very very long time to heal. she doesn't fly now (does flap) because we've had her 8 years and the vet thinks she has heart problems. when you gently try to extend her wing does she seem upset? when you point her to the ground does she use her wings (both) to break her fall? we let Phoebe gently glide to the ground from a foot or two up and she spreads her wings and flaps a tiny bit to stop her fall. am very glad that you have taken the bird in. she is truly lovely!


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Shibuya, I sent u a pm, let me know when I can send videos thanks.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*--- Update --- & Questions.*

Hello everyone, and a big thanks for all of our new friends here who have been kind enough to help us previously. 
I hope you and your feathered friends are all doing well. 
I just thought I would peek my beak in and give you all an update and ask a question. 

First of all, we finally found a vet a ways away that would take a look at her as we were growing more and more concerned as to why she was not flying two months on. 

Well, when we took her to the vet for her initial consultation, the vet, like us could not, upon physical examination find anything wrong with her. So, upset that we were no closer in understanding her problem, and already ¥10,000 ($100) in we opted to get some X-rays to see if they could shed some light on her problem. Turns out her wing was dislocated and broken in three places. However the injury appears to have happened so long ago that they have mended and were not able to be seen or felt. The doctor thinks that she must have been born last summer and sustained these injures last autumn. In fact she was shocked that she was able to make it through the winter in almost it's entirety. 

So are we. 
Making a long story short, she will never fly again. 

Thus, we have settled into our role as her caretaker and as we now have proof (via veterinarian records) that we are protecting the bird rather than keeping her - it will not involve any problems with the authorities should any of our neighbours choose to cause a stink about a pigeon living in our building. 

As the days and weeks pass, her personality is slowly changing too. 
She is becoming less irritable and pecks much less. In fact, she seems to welcome being allowed to roam free whilst we eat dinner or watch TV rather than being cooped up in her pen. 

We are hoping in a few more months she might actually be nice. 
We shall see, but given all she has gone through I am not surprised that she is not the friendliest bird in the world and acts out. So, I guess we have a new addition to our family. We are thinking of taking her down to my wife's parents house in Nagoya next month (as they live in a semi rural suburb) and see if she seems to like it better there. 

We shall see. 

Anyway. We also have a couple of questions. The first being much more pressing than the second. 

1) We have noticed she is drinking a whole lot more water lately. Much more and is also peeing much, much more. 
Peeing a lot and with every poop (please see pics). 

---Our question is, what could be causing her heightened thirst and consequent urination? It is so much more so than it was just a month ago, and while she does not appear to be sick, as such, we are concerned. 


2) She has been an extreme biter since we rescued her. Her beak has always had a point to it, similar to a bald eagle. But a couple of days ago, I noticed that it looked as though part of the end of her beak is going to break off. Is this normal? Could it be related to her urination problem? Or does this sound like she has been pecking too much? 

Sorry for such a long post and I thank all of you that read it and doubly thank those of you that are kind enough to post a follow up message. 

Look forward to hearing from you and thanks.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Lovely bird! Thank you for taking such good care of her. Hopefully some more experienced folks will comment soon on her beak. Our Pigeon who had injuries was initially mean but now is a lover so I think your bird will soon be your best friend.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*Tokyo Pigeon: Interesting Developments*

Just thought I would say hello and give an update on our pigeon. 
She is very healthy and seemingly becoming well adjusted to living with humans. 
I have made a small photo album of her, should you be interested in seeing it. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2757

Another reason, I wanted to say hi, is to let you know, that even here in Japan ( I thought there was no hope for these birds here) that there are extreme lovers of pigeons. 

Please see her blog here: 
http://ameblo.jp/soratotoritachi/entry-12051923166.html

But I am sure there are few that can understand, but I wanted to point you guys in the direction of her pics, which can be found here: 
http://ameblo.jp/soratotoritachi/imagelist.html

Japanese works right to left. 
At the top are the months 月　and the numbers are for example 7 月　which equals July. You need to look for the arrow on the left of the months to go back by year to look at individual months pics. 

Anyway, her photos are amazing and she has even developed a nappy / diaper system for her pigeons (which she keeps on at all times) -- Remember Japan is very urbanized and not many people have yards and most live like me in an apartment. 

But the best pic of all, can be found here during the Christmas of 2009 -- she has made her pigeons into "Santa Pigeons" -- and has dressed them all in festive pigeon nappies. 
http://ameblo.jp/soratotoritachi/image-10414308294-10345382571.html

Lol


Hope you are all well!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Love your photo album and glad to hear that the pigeon is doing well! And glad to hear that there are pigeon lovers in Japan.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Great pics, love the one on the frog. My girls do the same thing, I mean they have a choice of so many flat stable surfaces and yet, they balance on tv remotes that rock, keyboards, massage chair controls, feet, any strange little elevation such as ur frog, what fickle creatures. lol.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Think your bird will get very tame. It just takes tim. Phoebe bit and wing slapped me for months. Fiona didn't get friendly for 5 months either. Patience and kindness.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

*WTF is this? Seriously - this if freaking me out?*

Hi everyone. I hope you are well. This is us again from Japan with our street pigeon Pooko-chan - that we took in last winter. We were actually away on a trip to Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand) for a couple of weeks, and left our bird in the care of a local Aussie friend who lives down the street from us. 

Anyway, please have a look at the pictures (before trip and after) that we have posted, but what I would like to bring to your attention is the area just above her beak. It seems like these strange porcupine like things are growing out of her face? 
They are easily pulled off, and resemble the whiskers on a woman's brush. The thing is she didn't have them a couple of weeks ago, and I am really worried about what they are or what they could mean (parasite, disease, etc...)? 

Any help would be much appreciated. 
Thanks and hope you and your lovely birds are all doing well!


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## pmasonsmith (May 21, 2015)

DON'T PULL THEM OUT!
Its new feathers growing, she simply moulted out the small feathers on her face and is growing them back, its natural. She can't preen them so the protective casing is staying on, which makes them look spikey.


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## Shibuya (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks for the information. We are new to taking care of pigeons and had never seen anything like this before, so were quite concerned. I am glad to hear that they're just feathers and not anything that can harm her. 

Thanks again! 



pmasonsmith said:


> DON'T PULL THEM OUT!
> Its new feathers growing, she simply moulted out the small feathers on her face and is growing them back, its natural. She can't preen them so the protective casing is staying on, which makes them look spikey.


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