# I think it is time to say bye to the pigeon hobby



## scuba0095 (May 23, 2006)

Hello

I have been keeping pigeons for over a year and it has been such a great experience. I have NEVER enjoyed keeping any animals as much as ive enjoyed pigeons. EVen cleaning the loft doing chores spending money nursing sick birds back to health I ENJOYED it all. It gave me a sense of peace. I Have lost a bird or two every now and then while i let them out. I always thought i had a secure pen and that nothing would be able to get in. Well I was WRONG after all this time hhaving birds today i checked in the loft and almost ALLL pigeons were dead, it was the sickest thing ive ver seen. Nothing was even eaten it looked like something twisted their necks & broke them. The rest of the birds that made it escaped the coop and wont dare come near. I dont know what to do I am thinking for now i WIll feed them on top of the coop but I would really like to find a home for all them hopefully as I really dont think i am a match for whatever did this. This same animal also found my duck nest and ate ALLL the duck eggs and also ate all my cat food put out for the cats. The ducks were actually untouched im hoping thats because of their large size. ANyway have any of you been in this situation? It really is hard emotionally I dont think i can handle it.


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## nattyone (Jun 11, 2006)

I am so sorry , i have no advice as i dont have a loft but i just wanted to offer my condolences , i cant imagine how horrific a sight that must of been . i really am very sorry , its heart breaking to lose any animal but en masse with out reason must be horrendous . i hope you manage to get the servivors back and gets some help on preventing whatever it was from returning. xxxxx


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, I can see where this could and would be VERY upsetting and disheartening. I don't want to give you a hard time here BUT...........if something got into your loft, then obviously there is a way in, even when you think there's not and you need to find where it is. Nothing magically appeared in your loft, so however "it" got in, CAN BE FIXED....problem solved. You also said that the ones that survived "escaped the coop". How did they get out without you letting them out? That's probably how whatever got in, got in. I"m so sorry that this happened. I can't imagine how devastated I would be to find this in my loft. You need to walk around the outside of you loft and scrutinize every inch and fix every hole or opening you see no matter how small it seems. I surely wouldn't give up on having pigeons. You see,,,,it's in your blood now and no matter how you feel right now,,,,,,the "need" will come back. About the birds that are left, I've heard of guys getting hawks in the loft and it took them days to get the birds to come back in. Some things they don't soon forget..Don't just give up. Fix the problem and learn from the mistake and keep taking care of these wonderful birds....


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

OMG, this is a terrible tragedy. I am so sorry. 
This sounds like more than one predator, prbably a whole group. Very vicious.
I feel for you. I don't know how I would reacted in such a situation.

Is there a way you can trap your remaining birds and put them in the house for now? It must be so hard for them too and they must be terrified.
Then, later you can assess the situation and maybe even want to keep them.
How did the predator get into your loft?

Reti


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Scuba0095~ I know you must be devistated at what you found. I tried to vision in my mind that happening to me, and I had a chill run down my back. I am so sorry that this happened to you and your birds.

Please do not be too quick to give up on pigeons as I almost did when I lost my one beloved pigeon named Tooter that brought me to loving pigeons. A few months ago while he was freeflying in his back porch I stepped inside to get his pigeon mix, and a hawk came into the picture...anyway, after I lost my pigeon, I vowed I would quit pigeon talk and never get another pigeon. 

My wife told me that it would be a mistake for me to give up on pigeons, as she knew how happy just having one made me, and all that he and this forum had taught me in the 2 years I had him.

She was right. I now have 5 pigeons, mainly from other members here on Pigeon talk, and everyday is a blessing for me. 

I learned a lot the day I lost Tooter. I do not allow any of mine (and 4 of them are non-releasables) to freefly outdoors as I did Tooter. 

Please check your loft for flaws. Surely it was not as secure as you thought it was. 

Are you using 1/2 or 1/4 inch hardware cloth?

Is your floor plan elevated from the ground? 

What about the ROOF and SEAMS/CORNERS? Any gaps anywhere?

Do you lock your coop at night or when you are away?

Please investigate every inch of your pigeon living area and please do not make any hasty decisions now...please. 

Please gather your remaining pigeons and bring them inside if you can til the problem is solved.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Scuba0095,

You must be in shock right now from the  visual and emotional impact of your experience today, this we can all understand. It would, in Victor's words, devastate any one of us to view such carnage. In the moment, wanting to flee from the pain of this would be a natural response, but as Lovebirds have mentioned, what about the others that are still out there terrified of whatever took place in your loft?

I'm confused as to what natural predator would have twisted and broken the necks w/out trying to consume the victim, I'm wondering if the door itself was the entry mode and that you have perhaps a natural predator that would eat eggs, in addition to a sick human being that has targeted your birds? I don't mean to add to your frustration here, I just am having a hard time envisioning
an animal predator that is not motivated by hunger. Perhaps a solid door w/a deadbolt that is keyed on both sides would help to prevent a human entry of this kind. 

Whatever the source of predation, I hope that you can find a way to offer shelter to the birds who escaped w/their lives and take some time to sort this all out. I am so sorry for all that you have suffered today.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

scuba0095 said:


> This same animal also found my duck nest and ate ALLL the duck eggs and also ate all my cat food put out for the cats. The ducks were actually untouched im hoping thats because of their large size. ANyway have any of you been in this situation? It really is hard emotionally I dont think i can handle it.



I'm so sorry about this tragedy. This is a horrible shock I'm sure. You need to make sure that any holes larger then a 1/4 inch are closed off from the outside.

This sounds like the workings of a snake. My friend had one that got in his coop, they are drawn to the smell of eggs and babies. They actually will eat new babies and eggs whole, but they also will constrict older birds, even if they can't swallow them, and leave senseless killings. He also lost some older youngsters that were constricted around the neck, but couldn't be eaten due to size.

We had a couple trying to get in our loft, but have been lucky as it was daytime, but they usually come in at night. Baby season is when they come around.

Where do you live?


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Scuba0095,

I am so sorry for your loss. I can imagine how you must feel.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks Treesa for your input, I simply couldn't think of why an animal would kill but not devour, but what you said does make sense. Scuba0095, here's a link provided here at this site by LinHansen:

http://www.twpinc.com/twp/jsp/product.jsp?type=4

In case you haven't seen it before.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Scuba, 

I'm terribly sorry to read about the slaughter of so many of your birds You have witnessed a very horrific sight and I'm sure it was very traumatic for you.

Please give yourself time to review things, maybe you will get back into the hobby but you will need to re-evaluate your loft as others have suggested. Every tiny opening should be closed up and the loft has to be a virtual fort knox.

I personally think it was a weasel that got into your loft. They are fast, can get through the tiniest cracks, climb and kill viciously as you have described.

Here is one link mentioning weasels getting into chicken coops and killing wantonly but there are others. Cat will sometimes do this as well but being much bigger, it doesn't seem as likely.

http://www.wnrmag.com/stories/1998/feb98/weasel.htm


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Scba0095, 
I agree with Brad that this is the work of a Weasel, that includes Ferret's. They are masters of this. The next animal that is capable of this is some Raccoons, but I would imagine you would see where it had got in/out ... These are the only animals that I know of capable & HAVE done this to others I've seen in my 50yrs+. in Pigeons. There are ways to get rid of them (Weasel Familys) like live trapes etc., & Lofts can be made that will stop them.......... I'm sorry you had this Horrible killing happen, & good luck to you what-ever you decide...... Happy


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

SCUBA 0095, I have read and reread your post. I am truly sorry at your loss. You said that the birds necks had been twisted and broken No predator that I know of does this except for one that is man.A Weasel kills and just keeps killing but there would be traces of blood.A hawk will kill and leave with his kill,the same for an owl.It look like some one did not like your birds,and took the cowards way to let you know, or some mischievous childern that did not know better. Believe me I feel your pain,and I hope that I am wrong about it being done by a human. GEORGE


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

I`m very very sorry about what has happend.You said that something got in but did you ever think about someone getting in?It seems weird that you said the birds were not eaten but yet seemed to have had the neck twisted and broke.To be honest I don`t think any animal is strong enough or smart enough to do that.Also the duck eggs could have been smashed by the same person if it was a person.You said the cat food that you had sitting out was gone as well.If you had it set out for a cat odds are the cat ate th food.I`m sorry to hear about all the birds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Scuba,


I think I am with George here...

No single Creature would both break/wring necks, eat Cat food, and steal Duck Eggs.

And the only Creature who would wring necks, would be a person or persons...since, for one thing, no other animal posesses the kind of hands or logic where they would do such.

I am so sorry to hear your story...


Perhaps, a Video surveylance set-up, and or motion detector Lights, would be something to consider if you elect to begin anew, or to decided to try and carry on from here with your Birds. 

If the Police are friendly in your area, or Sherrif, you could also file a report of malicious vandalism.


If somehow this were the work of Racoons or Weasels, there should have been blood and loose feathers I would think...

The door of the Coop was appearently opened during the incident, and some of the Birds to got out? - who are now acting shy about returning...?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## scuba0095 (May 23, 2006)

Yes it really did look like a person totally twisted their necks but to be honest if it was a person it would be a sadist and i would be much more concerned about myself then my pets and really should be calling the police. I really dont feel it was a person because of it was why were the ducks and cats all totally untouched? ALso nothing looked like it was eaten other then eggs but ALLL babyies were missing so either something took them or ate them, but all adult birds were totally untouched other then having their heads twisted around and some blood around some of their eye sockets.


I also forgot to mention whatever this was it also ripped into our garbage.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, get down to some specifics--what are the dimensions of the largest single gap that an animal could have gotten through to get into the loft/cage? A weasel can get through a very small space (as tight as a rat) and will kill for the sheer fun of killing, apparently. Here are a couple of pages telling something about that--the second is a falconry forum where someone is mentioning that they've had a weasel get in and kill a bunch of pigeons without eating them.

http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4weasel.htm

http://apfalconry.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=avianprey&action=display&thread=1094490566&page=2

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=8857&postcount=3

But make no mistake about it--a weasel (and several animals in that family) is a killing-machine that makes a cat look like a piece of crap by comparison. As a matter of fact, a weasel can kill a cat if it just wants to for some reason--they're lethal.

Pidgey


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

scuba,
I'm soo sorry this happened to you. I, also, imagined coming home to my birds and they were all dead and I don't know what I'd since they are such a big part of my life.
Where do you live, maybe one of the members here would be willing to drive out to you place and help fix the problem and give advice.
There are no mistakes in life, only lessons to be learned. Keep you chin up.
Hilary Dawn


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, after reading the links our Pidgey provided, I now know why they sometimes call unsavory people "weasels". I have never seen a weasel, or thought much about them but I hope they stay away from our aviaries. The story about the mother weasel raising her babies in the wolf carcass is amazing.

Scuba, I'm very sorry this happened. How many pigeons did you lose? Is the base of your loft reinforced with underground wire and covered with packed soil? That will help keep most animals out.


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## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

Scuba, I am truly sorry for your loss, I have came home to a scene similar to that and I was sick and sad for days, I wouldnt wish that feeling on anyone. 

Only you know if it is time to give up the hobby or not. Just make sure that it is what you want to do before you rehome your birds.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

From everything that I've read, the weasel will kill by pouncing w/front paws and biting it's prey at the base of the skull. I was unable to find any instances of a weasel that killed it's prey in a bloodless fashion by twisting/breaking the neck. Which likely means that if a weasel, there would have been some signs of biting at the base of the skull along w/bloodied areas. Perhaps my original impression, or the point that Treesa raised, snakes like weasels will go into a killing frenzy as well.

Here are a couple of links describing how a weasel kills it's prey:

http://www.biokids.umich.edu/critters/information/Mustela_nivalis

http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/notebook/furbear/weasels.php

http://funkman.org/animal/mammal/weaselfamily.html

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There doesn't have to be much blood visible when death comes pretty quick. I used to have a couple of ferrets as pets for many years and I got to see the jill (the female--her name was "Scamper") go after a bird once. It was fast and decisive, with a clamp down on the neck that took the bird down very quickly.

Scuba, did you actually take a very good look at the necks to see if there were any bite marks under the feathers? Weasels have some really wicked eyeteeth but it might not even puncture a pigeon's neck because they're relatively very small. Depending on the size of the mouth of the weasel, it might not even puncture it but it could break it.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

There is some further discussion on the topic of weasels and pigeons in this thread with some good information:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7474&highlight=heads+missing

From WhiteWingsCa:

"weasel would be my guess - especially if you're finding the carcasses in the same location -- they like to pile up their "kill" for later consumption.

Beheading is a trademark of a weasel kill  " 

(See post #9 for the above quote.)

fp


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I personally think it's a human that killed the birds.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

I have to agree witrh JGregg and as Maggie commented an "unsavory" weasel of a human. I thought of it as well when I recommended a lock on the loft door. Though, it troubles me that if anyone wants to get in, even a human  "animal" can get through 1/4 inch hardware cloth. This is sad indeed to think it might be...gosh I hope I am proved wrong.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

You shouldn't give up I would just meet the challenge and secure that loft. 
I have a lock on my outdoor cage and not sure why, I have a stray cat that prowls outside but I don't think he picks locks. 
Good thing for me I don't have those wild creatures in the city area, I would probably be sleeping in my back yard.
I wonder if those electric invisable fences that you use to keep dogs is the yard would work. If you could put some kind of barrier around the loft to keep the wild animals out.
Just a thought.


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## scuba0095 (May 23, 2006)

OK on the question how did the raccoon get in? well we have a self made small door we use to let the pigeons out that i lock up every night. I am ASSUMINg whatever it was squeezed threw that? BUT the thing is I did not think it was possible as squeezing threw metal and hard wire cloth seems extremly painful! I dont know how to explain it I wish I had a picture to show you but I dont. 

The rest of the birds that escaped threw the door when i Opened it up (the door) to investigate they just zoomed out. 

Right now i am feeding & watering them on top of my loft I have one archangel trapped in a smaller cage Soon as i catch them all I can figure out what to do with them.

I am in kingston Ontario.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

How many birds do you have out? I think I would water them maybe but not feed them. It's been a couple of days now, and I think maybe if they got hungry they would come back in. Being outside 24/7 certainly isn't safe and I realize the birds don't know this but I would try to get them to come in. I don't think a racoon did this. If there was an opening big enough for a racoon surely you would know that. Wish we had some answers..........


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

*Maybe a fisher*

How utterly devastating, Scuba I'm so so sorry. Sadly, this does sound like it could be the work of a disturbingly heartless human (sociopath, much?) but if you're still investigating animal suspects, perhaps consider the fisher (aka fisher cat, aka virginia polecat).
I know we have them in the Oshawa area, so they probably live around Kingston too. You rarely see them about, I only know they exist because I nearly hit one in my car once so I looked it up to see wtf it was... Anyhow, they're in the weasel family can squeeze into tiny places. They "zigzag" around looking for different food sources and poke into every nook and cranny they can, which made me think of them in this case because of the pijys AND duck eggs.
Fishers usually eat rabbits and mammals, but also birds and eggs, and routinely kill even if they aren't hungry so they can come back later for their stash. I don't know about the size of their teeth, they kill by "a quick rush and a bite to the back of the neck or head," but they also grab on and wrap their bodies around prey like rabbits, so if it was young/small enough, it may try that with birds, that could somehow have led to the "twisting"... 
I'm not sure if they'd pass up ducks or not, but ducks may seem big enough to them that they'd go after the easier targets instead. They don't usually hang around in town because there isn't much food, so hopefully (if this were a fisher crime) this was an isolated incident. But in any case, you should lock up your whole yard if possible, cos if any of your neighbours are that sick, you won't want them _anywhere_ near your home or your animals. I think I'd call the cops, just in case.
Good luck, and once again, I'm very sorry for your loss.
Stephie


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## scuba0095 (May 23, 2006)

Hello

I really dont think it was a human. I dont think a human is going to twist my birds necks around steal all the babyies and eggs and eat all the duck eggs in 1 night. It just doesnt seem logical. AND if it was a person it would be the work of a sadist part of some cult OR an actual killer someone VERY mentally disturbed. If it was a person I think my life would be in serious danger as well because anyone who would do that would probably wanna do the same to a person if they got a chance. 


PLus why would a person ONLY kill pigeons and NOt the ducks or the cats? I also have chickens in some rabbit hutch type cages that were untouched. I DID FIND claw marks on the top of their hutch. So whatever it was it was strong enough to claw wood and make marks on it.


Ps there have not been any cases in the news of animals being killed & or tortured so I dont think there is an animal killing cult going around. 


I really highly doubht it was a fisher. I dont think a fisher would ever venture this close to town they only stick to the outskirts. And a fisher would NEVer leave without killing my ducks or cats. I have done a lot of research on fishers and they dont care how formitable their prey is and will take cats and small dogs just as easy as they would chickens. THey are also extremly fast agile and great climbers, if one visited the area all the animals would of been molested.


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## old dutch loft (Jun 12, 2006)

i am truly saddened by your loss.unfortunatly their are many enemies to the pigeon itself,their continually nervous about cats,hawks,dogs,mink raccon,bear weasel,skunk,rats,snakes,squrrels and human.they dont know what to expect.all these animals listed will eat flesh at will,yes even the squirrel,if found in the loft he just may eat a squeeker in the nest,but not a large bird.ive had a snake in my loft before,and he did kill a squeeker and eat it off the floor,but the nest should never have been on the floor to begin with,"my fault".i dont mind so much the snakes,they can eliminate any mouse problem in a flash.but if you take a rat trap,and put a small nail through it and put it just outside your loft about 8" high from the top of the trap to ground level and put a cotton ball on it with a touch of regular perfume that your mom has,"not overpowering either,just a small dab"and put a small rubber band around the trap dog holding the cotton ball on italong with "the lure",it will either kill every smaller animal like a squirrel to a rat to a weasel as well as a young skunk.i have done this myself for over 30 years,and believe me,it works,it will slap the hell out of a cats face when he sticks his nose up there and if he rubs his cheek on it it will grab and ear,hehe its amusing to actually see it happen,they wont come back to the loft for any reason,and a dog?lol poor nose of his will sting for a mighty long time,he will be a fraid to sniff anything for about a week.**** will run away,ASAP,their not the brightest of any animals and are in trouble before they know it.you just might be holding a young racoon by the nose all nite long here,i have done so myself,and the poor little thing will be crying real tears,aint no doubt about it either,after released he will never,ever return back to haunt you,unless he thinks you saved his life.best advise i can give i guess is to use a 12x12 high and wide by 36" long box trap,and just lay it alongside the aviary and next to the loft as possible with a wing feather or several feathers in it.that should eliminate any animals that aproach your loft,but i think in your case,it might have been the nieborhood bully spinning heads,if the heads were still intact,it dont take very much to pull one off.i worked the for goverments ADC "animal damage control"program for the department of agriculture for almost 20 yrs as a trapper,so i speek pretty fluantly about this problem you have here.the last thing we all agree upon here is a padlock,get a combination lock and use it religously.maybe replace all your netting to 1/2"sq mesh to 1/4 "sq mesh and make sure its stapled together tight.and any trap doors you have should be locked from the inside of your loft as well as windows for the nite.
ps one thing here to note is;a young cat"kitten"will kill as many as possible but might not eat them,he will catch them and clamp down on their neck,play with them until their dead,and move on to another one,just for fun.do an autopsy on one and look for bite marks,etc.also look in any litter box for a cat poop that will show some sign of feathers,ick...but a hint anyways good luck to you in the future.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

scuba0095 said:


> I am in kingston Ontario.


If you live alittle closer I would have driven over after my exams were done but that's like a 20hour drive! 
I'm still very sorry for your birds and so far it does seem like weasals. But the cat and duck thing is confusing. Here in Bathurst we had a problem with weasals eating/killing our duck and goose population. Also weasals are very mean, they're know to attack black bears! 
Well I really don't know what to say other than what ever your choice, be sure to think things through to the end.
Hilary Dawn


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

scuba0095 said:


> OK on the question how did the raccoon get in? well we have a self made small door we use to let the pigeons out that i lock up every night. I am ASSUMINg whatever it was squeezed threw that?
> 
> The rest of the birds that escaped threw the door when i Opened it up (the door) to investigate they just zoomed out.


SCUBA0095,I have changed my feeling about it being a human.thank be to GOD.Seeing how the other birds got out when you opened the door.I now have to go a long with the RACOON and WEASSEL people .***** have paws that are very human like and could twist necks,in any event its a racoon or weassel. Don't let this bad experance force you to give up.Learn form this experance and make the adjustments need to prevent this from happening again.I believe in fighting and not giving up,so hang in there if I lived closer to you I would give you birds to make up your loss. GEORGE


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## mountainstorm (May 3, 2006)

I think it could have been a human. Are the ducks, for instance, in a coop, or do they wander around? Ducks are pretty fast, and they would be able to fly away from a person? Whatever it was, didn't get the cats because--have you ever tried to get a cat to come to you on the street?--I don't necessarily think it was a cult or anything. I have a friend who had a roommate's boyfriend get jealous of my friend, and while she was out, he killed her two adult rats by throwing them against the wall (fortunately he left the babies alone for some reason so she has great descendants of the murdered ones).

In any case, I would wait to give it up until after some more time has passed. Also, definitely get locks on the doors.

Rach


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi scuba0095,

If raccoon, weasel, Virginia Pole Cat aka Fisher Cat aka Martes pennanti, these animals appear all to be from the same family, that is to say Mustelidae (we can toss the otter in here as well). None of these animals strangle and break the necks of prey as per your original description. They will bite around the head/neck region to make their kill. It would not be a bloodless site that you would have arrived upon. The decision is of course up to you, what you will choose in the future, but it would seem that you would need to take precautions for more than one possible issue, a lock on the door would be one precaution that I would take for sure as well as possible predator animals. 

Here are a couple of links on the Fisher/Martin/Virginia Pole Cat:

http://www.unity.edu/FacultyPages/Nelson/lecture23.htm

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...lling+it's+prey&d=OLb8gzmtM7uP&icp=1&.intl=us

Notice in the above site, that the Fisher was re-introduced to keep feral cat populations down. Your cats however were untouched.

And this site, see post #43 for a description of the Martin from the Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05. 

http://www.curevents.com/vb/showthread.php?t=41615&page=2

Don't get confused, it's a site that uses a VBulletin software as well. It's actually an interesting forum on Global Current Events.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey fp - that last site was quite interesting and scary - one member even listing things to stockpile.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Maggie, yes, I thought that website in itself was a topic all on its' own, but it did have a description on the Fisher/Martin that was a bit obscure to google.

fp


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## scuba0095 (May 23, 2006)

Well I have all my birds back under my control again I still let them out but they will come back now for food etc... 


I have patched up what I think was the aarea whatever this was got in


I have added a night light and bought this stuff called critter ridder? I Put on the floor of grass outside the loft aparently the guy at canadian tire was convinced it worked great (Just part of my plan)

I put up a motion sensor in front of where my cats eat and drink. Whenever they go to their food a BRIGHT light flashes on im sure that would prevent whatever animal from eating their food.

I closed off the crawl space basement the cats use to use as refuge its summmer anyways and we are encourging the cats to just come inside rather then hide in a dungeon or basement when they dont like the weather

WHatever the animal was that did this has NOT been back since, the cat food has been untouched and no duck eggs have been eaten and garbage has been untouched also

With the night light I can totally see into the pigeon loft threw my window. SO I can get up at anytime in thenight jjust look out the window and I can see every inch of the loft and know exactly what the birds are doing


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just make sure that the patched up areas of the loft can't be pulled apart as to allow even a half inch of opening.

Pidgey


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