# How to proceed. Opinions?



## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

(sorry... long)

I decided in early in May that it really wanted to start racing pigeons this young bird season. Which starts mid August for us here. My loft was nearly empty. I had a few losses to my dog in the winter and sold most of my birds. Obviously should have decided this MUCH earlier. I've had to scramble to find anyone who had birds they were willing to sell which would be of the right age.

I am really looking forward to this. It's the clock thing which has held me back in the past. Unless I can find a used Tauris clock, I'll be paying 900+ for one to race.

I have what I'll call 4 groups of birds.
*Group 1*
I found some birds for sale from a local fancier. He hadn't raced his birds but acquired them from some successful local racers as far back as 2003. These are White Bandits and some other birds which came from Scott Saunders. I bought everything he hatched out in 2011. I am very excited about the White Bandits because these came to him from someone who was friends with Chic at Hapyco (ofcoarse anyone can say anything). I think it will be fun to try and develop some fast grizzles part of my loft. Just something to be a little different.

Some of those birds were born as early as Jan and were allowed to fly at his loft. I've been settling them for almost a month now. But I do expect to lose a few of those back to his loft, in fact I need some to as I need the space. And if it matters, there is no pedigrees on those birds. There's 20 of those birds left. I picked them all up for 2 bucks each. (started with 37 and sold/gave the rest to friends).

*Group 2*
11 Nice birds given to me by a friend who races successfully in a different club. All hatched out late April, and early May. SVRs, Janssen's, not exactly sure. He will be giving pedigrees on any birds I still have at the end of the season.

*Group 3*
I got a little more cavalier and bought a kit of 8 birds from Texas for a good price. They should be here next week. These are bred from Clausing Houbens, SVR's, Janssen, and Maurice Casaert birds. Not 100% sure on the exact birds I am getting yet. 

*Group 4*
I may be a bit nuts but I sold off a couple toys and a kidney . And I have 3 (possibly 4) birds coming from North Carolina. These are Paul Walsh's Schofield strain which he has been winning a lot with. One of them is from the same parents which produced a convention winner for Paul. These were hatched out 2nd week of May I believe. These should be here next week too.

So with all that said.... My goal is to be competitive in the local club. Hopefully win some. For next year, take my top few birds to breed from. Then branch out into some one loft races in the future.

The quandary is this... I want to breed based on performance. My loft is small, I will only be able to keep and breed from my best. I'm somewhat hesitant to race those most expensive birds from group 4. They will be the youngest of the group. They may very well be my best birds, they might be winners. But, I might be better off just keeping them and breeding from them. 

Would you race them as young birds? Save them for old bird season? Or just keep them for breeding?

Any tips for me? These birds are the base for what will become "my birds". It's all really random stuff. In fact, the only thing missing (which I am still working on) is I'd like to have two or three birds with some Kannibaal lines. I'll also be building a separate young bird loft this fall for use next year.


----------



## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

I would stock group four and save them for Breeders. If they were of great expense, then breed from them. One generation of not being flown or tested will not by any means affect them as productive Race Bird Breeders. If you chose to fly them as youngbirds and lose them, then you lost that family. If you keep them as breeders you can make them your Foundation Birds, if so willing.


----------



## Goingatitagain (Feb 5, 2011)

klondike goldie said:


> I think you need to race them all, it don't matter what someone says about their birds....if they don't fly good for you, then you don't need to be breeding out of them. People can tell you the birds are from this family or from that family but at the end of the day it's how well they fly for you that counts. If a bird flys good for you ( no matter what the family) breed it to another bird that flys good for you. If they don't fly good for you, then you really don't need them.


 I tend to agree with Klondike. Your birds from NC are going to be late hatches and are too young to race in an August YB season. But I would train all the birds the same and see how your group 4 birds do in training tosses. 
We have had pairs of youngsters where one was a top flyer everytime they raced and the nestmate could'nt find their way home from down the street.

It's always a plus to be breeding birds that are proven racers by you, so you can pair them up next year to raise you some winners.

You can hold the late hatches for next OB season and fly them then. That's what we are planning to do with all the birds that hatched out after April 15th.
Wish you the best with your new teams and enjoy them. There's nothing like training and racing YB"s


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Most people would say fly all of them and keep the better ones to breed from. I personally don't think you need to do that. I would hold group 4 because they already have a winning history and if you paid a good sum for them. They can be bred together and the offsprings flown next year. You don't lose anything by holding them back. 

Groups 1,2,3 would give you 39 birds. If you lose half that, you'd still have a good sized team to fly the season. Twenty birds is easier to manage as well vs 40 birds.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

12 volt
I am not sure if you saw the post in birds for sale, but I was wanting to sell a few, but worried about the temp to send. Not sure when your races are, but I will have about 12 birds availiable around the 15th to the 18th. Don't know whether or not I can ship, but I will let them go for shipping about $120.00 plus a few bags of feed. In other words about $250.00. Think they might let us ship from here to Salt Lake via ABQ if the temps are down. If you come get them I will let them go for about $100.00. About a 7 to 8 hour drive from you. Check my webpage for what I have going. I would want you to fly them and test them out. Hell you got another Kidney.

Randy


----------



## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

Good thoughts and suggestions. Not sure what I will do yet. 

Randy... I was tempted when I saw you post those up. I think I'm kind of overloaded for my loft as it is and I'm afraid I've spent what I can at this point. I was tempted when I saw you post it though.


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I say fly them all....think about it this way. I would rather loose them and find out that they are terrible birds then waste more money, time, and energy breeding from them. I've been given birds I only have about 3 pair that are nest mates. Some of them have that great intelligent look to them and you notice them when you walk the loft then I have their siblings that got lost. Same breedings same pedigree some are good some aren't. You should race them price and pedigree shouldn't matter the races should!


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

12 Volt Man said:


> Good thoughts and suggestions. Not sure what I will do yet.
> 
> Randy... I was tempted when I saw you post those up. I think I'm kind of overloaded for my loft as it is and I'm afraid I've spent what I can at this point. I was tempted when I saw you post it though.


Maybe we can get some birds to you in the future. Looks more and more like they will fly around my house. Maybe the guys in ABQ can work them in as late hatches later in the season.


----------



## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

As commented by some I'd hold group # 4 back and breed from them.Walsh's Schofields are definately proven birds,and by all means should breed you proven birds.And as also stated they're late hatches and won't be good for YB races this year.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

klondike goldie said:


> no bird or group of birds are proven in your loft until you prove them, either they will fly in your area for you or they wont. no family of birds produces 100% winners.....I don't care what the pigeon peddelers say. If you paid a lot of money for some of them and want to use them as breeders, thats fine. But you need to remember, it dont matter how much you spent on them or what famous bird or birds they are down from....if they dont produce good flyers, you dont need them....if they do produce good flyers, hold onto them.


I agree 100%. I am raising about 130 young birds this year. The first 100 will race as young birds. The other 30 will fly around the house to be sold for breeders because the hatched too late to fly this season. Last season I flew 40 birds in ABQ. Three will be brought back to breed. Out of this years 100 only a select few will be brought back to replace those that bred lesser birds. If you keep those birds in too breed because of cost and pedigree you are doing yourself a disservice. I feel that I have very good birds after 6 years of hard selection, but not every bird is worthy of breeding. Not every birds you spend 1k for from Ganus is worthy of breeding either. Bring in the best birds you can, select by basket, and breed the best to the best. All this crummy fliers can make good breeders is BS. Good birds breed good birds. I would much rather breed a sibling of my race winner than a bad racer any day. Let your basket do the talking.


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I agree 100%. I am raising about 130 young birds this year. The first 100 will race as young birds. *The other 30 will fly around the house to be sold for breeders* because the hatched too late to fly this season. Last season I flew 40 birds in ABQ. Three will be brought back to breed. Out of this years 100 only a select few will be brought back to replace those that bred lesser birds. If you keep those birds in too breed because of cost and pedigree you are doing yourself a disservice. I feel that I have very good birds after 6 years of hard selection, but not every bird is worthy of breeding. Not every birds you spend 1k for from Ganus is worthy of breeding either. Bring in the best birds you can, select by basket, and breed the best to the best. All this crummy fliers can make good breeders is BS. Good birds breed good birds. I would much rather breed a sibling of my race winner than a bad racer any day. Let your basket do the talking.


This is exactly what you're telling others not to do. These 30 can't be breeders because they are not basket selected. If you flew 40 birds last year and only had 3 worthy enough to bring back, how is somebody going to select the "good" one's out of the 30 non-basket tested birds that will be for sale? Wouldn't the buyers be doing themselves a disservice by buying and breeding from these 30, since they have not raced?


----------



## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

The other 30 will fly around the house to be sold for breeders because the hatched too late to fly this season. Xueoo brings up a very good point, that comment is in direct conflict with the rest of your post.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> This is exactly what you're telling others not to do. These 30 can't be breeders because they are not basket selected. If you flew 40 birds last year and only had 3 worthy enough to bring back, how is somebody going to select the "good" one's out of the 30 non-basket tested birds that will be for sale? Wouldn't the buyers be doing themselves a disservice by buying and breeding from these 30, since they have not raced?


Xueoo. The three that I would bring back are using my standards. Two race winners and a bird that had 3 top 10 finishes with a 4th and an 8th against around 400 birds. His aunt and her father were 1st place winners. Her Dam also produced two very good birds for me last year and she is a grand daughter of my best pair. Now for the rest of the team their was 16 of those birds with top 10% finishes. Don't want to get defensive here, but there is plenty of demand for what I have to offer. I have my birds narrowed down to three distinct foundations. Each has produced winners. Out of my 20 or so pairs of breeders 16 pairs have produced top 10 birds if not race winners. The new pairings are off of siblings of winners or same sex siblings of race breeders. I have put birds in numerous lofts in ABQ and they reach the top of the sheets for all that fly them.
I do agree with you that the 30 birds that are going to fly around my house are not tested, but the other 100 will be. I also think that a bird that had a few top 10% finishes and is a sibling to race winners is a good bet for a breeder. If I had a hodge podge of 30 birds and did not know what the family has done, I agree with you 100%. Like my mentor said when he gave me my foundation birds, "My cull birds are better than what most people have in their loft". Out of the 12 birds he gave me 10 produced winners. I do believe him. I am not a feather merchant that sits around and tells you how good the birds are. I race them. If you need peds to be a believer they have that also. 
I just want a team to fly around the house to enjoy. Also giving fliers the opportunity to obtain some very good blood for a reasonable price. And yes, I would rather they hit the sky. They are just a bit too young to race this year, and I do not have a local club. Ganus, Vic Miller, the Janssen brothers, the late Bob Kenny, Warren Smith, etc would charge you $1000 for an unproven bird. I offered 12 young birds for $250 from the same bloodlines with the option to fly them and your calling me a hypocrite. 
Yes I will not stock them using my current criteria, but that does not mean they will not become the best breeder in your loft. A dozen or so bird out there were stocked straight out of the nest when I was starting out. Most produced me winners.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

beaverbandit said:


> The other 30 will fly around the house to be sold for breeders because the hatched too late to fly this season. Xueoo brings up a very good point, that comment is in direct conflict with the rest of your post.


I originally bred the extra bird for Wingsonfire and for Becky. Birds that were won in the breast cancer donation auction. Both declined the birds opting for young birds next spring that could be raced. We agrees that they should be tested before stocked. I offered these birds up for sale as young birds but concluded that the heat in June would be an issue for shipping. Going into the fall I keep only 40 birds that I breed from. I also decided since my breeders were together that I would foster out a few and leave the rest of my best pairs to breed from. Yes going against my philosophy of flying everything I raise. 
So what do I do with these 30 birds. Well offer them to the post for about $20 a bird. Those damn feather merchants. The gal selling birds for such high prices that have not been tested. How dare I offer a bird off a $1500 Red rose auction bird off of son of Motown missile and a hen that bred me a combine winner in Michigan, or a bird of a full Vic Miller Cock whose father did well in the Vegas race and sold for $200 x a full Janssen hen off of four Ganus birds. The same pair that has bred a dozen winners for me. Junk birds. I gave away 100 young birds this year to fly. Thought I would help a few more fanciers with inexpensive birds that I and others believe in to help me pay for some feed. 
I would put these 30 birds up against any hodge podge birds any day. Will I breed from them, probably not, it goes against my current philosophy. Now if I were to start over today with new birds, where would I go? Those 30 would do me just fine. I know they win and I know what they are off of.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My Vic Miller bird is Ed. Messed up and left out a Zero. His Sire went for $2000 in the auction. I have breed about 4 birds a year from him since 05. Thats about 24 birds or so with about 15 raced. I did not race in 05 but stocked the youngsters. The following are his breeding results that I know about. 
AHPI 1636 04	Ed	
Sire to:
1st,1st,1st,3rd,3rd,9th,17th,23rd
Grandsire to: 
1st,18th,1st,3rd,4th,28th,3rd,4th,4th,19th,12th,30th


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Xueoo
I will shut up about the issue after one more point since this is not my post. An example of birds off my team that I will not stock. 
A sibling to my race winner by 8 minutes at 250. 
She was 16th 200 miles 338 birds. 
A bird 18th in the same race. The Dam bred me 8th at 500 miles, 1st from 250, 9th from 150 the year before. 
And so on. Thought about selling these guys also for cheap to help someone start out.


----------



## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Xueoo
> I will shut up about the issue after one more point since this is not my post. An example of birds off my team that I will not stock.
> A sibling to my race winner by 8 minutes at 250.
> She was 16th 200 miles 338 birds.
> ...


Maybe Xueoo will start one thread of his own about his pigeon experiences and accomplishments, probably not but it is just a thought that just came over me ?


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Xueoo. The three that I would bring back are using my standards. Two race winners and a bird that had 3 top 10 finishes with a 4th and an 8th against around 400 birds. His aunt and her father were 1st place winners. Her Dam also produced two very good birds for me last year and she is a grand daughter of my best pair. Now for the rest of the team their was 16 of those birds with top 10% finishes. Don't want to get defensive here, but there is plenty of demand for what I have to offer. I have my birds narrowed down to three distinct foundations. Each has produced winners. Out of my 20 or so pairs of breeders 16 pairs have produced top 10 birds if not race winners. The new pairings are off of siblings of winners or same sex siblings of race breeders. I have put birds in numerous lofts in ABQ and they reach the top of the sheets for all that fly them.
> I do agree with you that the 30 birds that are going to fly around my house are not tested, but the other 100 will be. I also think that a bird that had a few top 10% finishes and is a sibling to race winners is a good bet for a breeder. If I had a hodge podge of 30 birds and did not know what the family has done, I agree with you 100%. Like my mentor said when he gave me my foundation birds, "My cull birds are better than what most people have in their loft". Out of the 12 birds he gave me 10 produced winners. I do believe him. I am not a feather merchant that sits around and tells you how good the birds are. I race them. If you need peds to be a believer they have that also.
> I just want a team to fly around the house to enjoy. Also giving fliers the opportunity to obtain some very good blood for a reasonable price. And yes, I would rather they hit the sky. They are just a bit too young to race this year, and I do not have a local club. Ganus, Vic Miller, the Janssen brothers, the late Bob Kenny, Warren Smith, etc would charge you $1000 for an unproven bird. I offered 12 young birds for $250 from the same bloodlines with the option to fly them and your calling me a hypocrite.
> Yes I will not stock them using my current criteria, but that does not mean they will not become the best breeder in your loft.* A dozen or so bird out there were stocked straight out of the nest when I was starting out. Most produced me winners*.


Randy, you and some others don't get the point I'm trying to make. Your quote proves you don't need to fly the birds to stock them, as you always strongly suggest others to do. And, it would come across as the only way to go. You did the same as what every other breeder does or have done, with success. That is to breed from birds that have never been raced. Family history can be a good indication of quality. 

Sometimes, there is what is ideal to do, and, other sometimes, there is reality, or practicality. There are no absolute's in breeding. Many paths lead to the same results.


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Wingsonfire said:


> Maybe Xueoo will start one thread of his own about his pigeon experiences and accomplishments, probably not but it is just a thought that just came over me ?


I don't race. It's well written in my posts.


----------



## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

Xueoo said:


> I don't race. It's well written in my posts.


I never mentioned any thing about racing, pigeon experiences and accomplishments?????????


----------



## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I think if one wants to start racing birds and making some progress right off the bat then getting some stock from Hillfamily loft would be a great way to get that start ..If one has been following his progress he pretty much took all of the guess work out of finding the families you would need to get you where you want to be without question, but thats just one mans opinion .


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

12 volt man, first off the name of the game in racing pigeons is PATIENCE. It might take you years to get to where you want to go in racing, and when you think you got it all figured out, call me so I will know too and a guy in are club who has been flying for 41 years wants a call too. He has forgot more about pigeons than we will ever know.Don't waste your good birds you payed good money for ,but in time if they don't produce anything you like and you don't have the time to try a different mating get rid of them. I have a hen from a guy that never got anything good from her, and myself just starting out would take anything that was offered to me. Will that Hen crossed with a cock bird I got for $40.00 has produced 2 club first place wins for me in my second old bird season. They flew middle of the pack in young bird and I can't till you why they went to the top in old bird eather, but I can till you I'm keeping the parents and will let them produce some young next year, which will be un-proven again. I will also try some young birds off the top birds I end up with this yesr.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think what we are all saying is that you race unproven birds and families before you stock them. Makes perfect sense.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Start with proven birds saves bunches of time.


----------



## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

PigeonVilla said:


> I think if one wants to start racing birds and making some progress right off the bat then getting some stock from Hillfamily loft would be a great way to get that start ..If one has been following his progress he pretty much took all of the guess work out of finding the families you would need to get you where you want to be without question, but thats just one mans opinion .


 I will second this comment. I was gifted 4 breeders from last years Breast Cancer Auction and Randy's bird's are excellent handling. 
I've handled what I consider lesser birds then what I was given and the fanciers want $500 each for theirs. If I was starting over I would definitely buy his 12 bird kit for $250.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

PigeonVilla said:


> I think if one wants to start racing birds and making some progress right off the bat then getting some stock from Hillfamily loft would be a great way to get that start ..If one has been following his progress he pretty much took all of the guess work out of finding the families you would need to get you where you want to be without question, but thats just one mans opinion .


I give full credit to my mentor who purchased good birds from good sources. Vic Miller, Ganus, OHF, Red Rose, WOW, etc. He put them in money races and found his best. He has 150 birds and breeds from only 15 pairs. Only his best. The 12 he started me with were off his best. This helped me out. 
Also thanks for the kind words. We all feel strongly about our own birds. Some of us warranted and some not warranted to feel that way. My birds every year confirm my feelings and make me proud. 
Back to what X was saying. You can get good stock that has not flown. You just need a good quality source. I feel I have taken that sources through selecting from the basket and made it better. Basket selection is where I am. Not everyone is there. Obtain birds from someone that is there and you are better off than just taking what everyone gives you. If I were in the Salt lake area, I think I would hit up the Jones Boys and some of the guys that do really well and obtain stock. I think Capt. Chuck is also in the are. Study the race sheets and get some late hatches off these guys. Big Al, my birds, my mentor, A few guys in ABQ all have birds that fly over similar terrain. These are the birds you want to start with.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

JaxRacingLofts said:


> I will second this comment. I was gifted 4 breeders from last years Breast Cancer Auction and Randy's bird's are excellent handling.
> I've handled what I consider lesser birds then what I was given and the fanciers want $500 each for theirs. If I was starting over I would definitely buy his 12 bird kit for $250.


Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

12 Volt Man said:


> (sorry... long)
> 
> I decided in early in May that it really wanted to start racing pigeons this young bird season. Which starts mid August for us here. My loft was nearly empty. I had a few losses to my dog in the winter and sold most of my birds. Obviously should have decided this MUCH earlier. I've had to scramble to find anyone who had birds they were willing to sell which would be of the right age.
> 
> ...


Rethinking your question I would keep group 4 and breed from them. You might get some good birds for next years YB. You might get nothing but time will tell. If you fly them and loose them you will never know what you had. Let their babies tell you what you have. They will settle so loft fly them unless you payed too much and don't want to risk them at all. Fly all the others and like you said keep the best in most cases is only about 20% or less of any group of birds are going to be good. 

If a bird never flys or raced when young it will do you no good to try when it is old. Late hatches are good for breeders not flyers . 

Keep them healthy because healthy birds win races. 

Good ventalation in your loft but not drafty.
Good clean feed and water fresh twice a day.
good grit.
Treat before breeding and before racing for canker, respitory, and worms. Then again half way through the season.
Vitamins twice a week and probios twice a week too.
Electrolytes and probios after every race.

Good luck hope this helps


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> If a bird never flys or raced when young it will do you no good to try when it is old. Late hatches are good for breeders not flyers .


This may be your opinion but it's far from the truth. I have a bird on my OB team this year who got hit by a hawk as a YB last year and had a hole in his crop that took forever to heal so he was never flown as a YB he was only out a few times. Well he was still here this spring and even though he's out of my top pair I didn't have use for him in the breeding loft ths year. So I figured what the heck I'll train it for OB races with the rest of them if he's any good he'll be here after the season. Well he was 2nd in the 250 by 23 seconds and he was 2nd bird home in the 400 on Saturday so be it, it wasn't my best race coming in 37 mins behind the winner and knocking me out of the lead for Average speed. But still a bird that didn't fly a race as a young bird a bird that wasn't even trained as a young bird can fly good as an OB.


----------



## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> Keep them healthy because healthy birds win races.
> 
> Good ventilation in your loft but not drafty.
> Good clean feed and water fresh twice a day.
> ...


I think I'm doing good on all those fronts. 

Group 4, I was informed is getting shipped today  Going over my previous emails, It looks like they would have been hatched around May 8-10th. I say that because on May 17th, he told me they were "banded a few days ago". Still a tough call on whether or not I will fly them. I'll get them loft flying and evaluate from there I guess. 

Group 3 will be here later this week. Then I can get everyone settled and start loft flying. 

I actually let out 5 birds from Group 1 last night just to see if they would stick around. They flew for a good half hour then sat on my roof a while. But all of them trapped before dark.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

12 volt just a rule of thumb, is flying by june 1.

0446, i should have said in general late hatchs are for breeding not flying .You even said yours were out some . I too have late born birds that fly on my team the second year its just that most people don't have room to house extra birds and it seams that you loose too many when you get away from the normal spring born ,summer flown. Many people don't even race YBs and still have new birds added to their teams each year , they will train and fly these birds just never race till the next OB season.


----------



## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

I have a package waiting for me at the post office.


----------

