# Can a non-walking pigeon live?



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

During the winter here in Australia (USA summer), around 6 weeks ago, a pigeon hen and her mate started to visit my backyard feeder with other pigeons, and the hen could not stand up. On closer inspection, she looks like she has very bad bumblefoot/pox on her feet, and she cannot use them to walk at all. Part of her feet are already eaten away, and whats left looks deformed and useless.

When I first noticed her, she proceeded to get `raped' by every male pigeon around her (I guess that sitting on her tummy is a gesture of sexual submission in Pigeon hens)?. I honestly didn't expect her to live the week, let alone the winter, but I made a special effort to help her to eat peacefully, & she made it. And she has a devoted mate who tries his best to protect her.

Anyway, I tried to teach them both to come up to my deck and eat in a place where she wouldn't be harrassed. They figured it out in a day, and now they come to my door every morning and wait to be fed. She still cannot stand, but I give her a huge pile of food each morning to `sit on' and she pecks happily away at it each morning, while her mate fends off other birds. 

I'm not really sure what to do with her (and her mate). I feel the burdeon of being responsible for her survival. And so I'm wondering if I should try to catch her, or both of them, to look after them properly? On the other hand, even though she cannot walk, she can fly very well and if I capture her, I would be taking that one source of normality & freedom away from her. I'm also worried that I might not be able to catch both of them, and I would separate her from her mate.

Any ideas? Do you think I'm her only hope?


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

I think it would be best to catch both of them and see if you can help.
If you can help, you can release them both together later, so that they can stay a pair and he can continue to protect her.
If you can't help her condition, you will have to decide if you should keep the pair and care for them or let them go again.
To catch them, you can take a dog crate, put the pile of feed in it, in the usual feeding spot and run a string through the back of the crate to the door. Once they both enter pull the door closed.
Good luck.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F, there is also the possibility that what you are seeing is actually a string injury, where fine thread/string is binding and damaging the feet so it looks like they are deformed. Best catch and verify things, if you can, some good people on here who will help you if it is string related.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Bella...do you think you could actually lure them into the house ? Man, oh, man...it's gonna be hella hard to catch BOTH of them...y'know ? Although I would agree with everyone else...trying to secure her would be the better option for many reasons already stated....


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Guys!

Thanks HEAPS for your feedback & advice...it means a lot to have your support.

This will sound gross, and I apologize in advance, but one of her feet fell off during the week. The strange thing is she can now walk a little bit now, using the stump of one leg. I've seen her walk quite quickly, even. The other foot is really mong & horrible, but it doesn't look like its going to fall off, at least not immediately.

I'm not really sure what to do at this point. She and her mate still visit me at 10am every morning, eat their food, and leave. He protects her while she eats, and I've seen him feed her and mate with her. So I am guessing that babies are on the way.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

which part of australia are you in if you dont mind me asking.
sounds rather nasty can a pigeon live a life with out a foot or with out both feet??


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It does sound as if it could be a string injury. Think you should try to catch both of them if posible and see if she can be helped. I don't see how she can just go on like this in the wild. Poor things.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> It does sound as if it could be a string injury. Think you should try to catch both of them if posible and see if she can be helped. I don't see how she can just go on like this in the wild. Poor things.


I agree with Jay.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot guys!

Jay & Charis, I think you are right...it looks like there is a bit of string unraveling from her remaining foot.

How the hell does something like this happen, and get so awful? Her remaining foot looks totally deformed. Its awful, poor girl

She and her mate are still getting used to me, so there's been no chance of capturing her yet. I am trying to feed them closer and closer to my back door, so I might herd them inside. But they are wary (mostly because other pigeons harass them so much and rape her) , and they don't stay very long when they eat. I help guard her from the rapings from other pigeons while she eats, which I know she really appreciates. But she is not tame enough to Shepard into my house yet. 

I'm also a bit scared of capturing her, checking her out, helping if I can, but then she never comes back for food because I scared her too much Its so hard knowing what to do...what if the capture cuts her off from her food supply?

I don't have an aviary here because I rent in a place where no pets are allowed. This is why I don't have 100 birds living with me right now. It makes things hard.


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

*god bless you*



Bella_F said:


> During the winter here in Australia (USA summer), around 6 weeks ago, a pigeon hen and her mate started to visit my backyard feeder with other pigeons, and the hen could not stand up. On closer inspection, she looks like she has very bad bumblefoot/pox on her feet, and she cannot use them to walk at all. Part of her feet are already eaten away, and whats left looks deformed and useless.
> 
> When I first noticed her, she proceeded to get `raped' by every male pigeon around her (I guess that sitting on her tummy is a gesture of sexual submission in Pigeon hens)?. I honestly didn't expect her to live the week, let alone the winter, but I made a special effort to help her to eat peacefully, & she made it. And she has a devoted mate who tries his best to protect her.
> 
> ...


what you are doing is great-food/water--with her physical impairments-she could be fair game for a predator/-i mean her buddy can only do so much.//.plan- b,,-would be to confine her in a large cage and cator to her-which might be demeaning and break her will//.kindof a catch 22.sincerely james waller


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks a lot guys!
> 
> Jay & Charis, I think you are right...it looks like there is a bit of string unraveling from her remaining foot.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about that much, as this bird shouldn't be released anyway. She obviously can't live like that, and probably won't make it very long anyway if she is released. What choice is there? If possible to catch her, you have to. You can't just leave her with string on her foot, and like I said, she isn't going to last long out there. Don't over think it. Just try to catch her. Better if you can get both, but if not, get her.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

My friend and I helped one pigeon like that before. A fishing string got caught on the feet. We spent probably 30 minutes doctoring it--hard to unrabble such thing.

That pigeon with foot injury will not live long in the wild. As I understand wild ferals have an average 5 years lifetime in the wild. With injuries that will be even shorter. Time to help the bird if you are so inclined. That string injury is human induced.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Jay,

Yes, that would be the ideal situation, I agree. 

I'll keep trying to tame her enough to catch her, and also ask the local pet store if they know anyone who would keep a disabled feral pigeon as a pet (and her mate too, if possible). If I can't find anyone to look after her, I will keep supporting her best i can as a free bird. She can walk, so that is a major improvement t how she was when I met her.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

bella, my name is susie. just wondering where in australia you live? if you live in melbourne if you could catch the bird i would be happy to provide a temporary home for it and see what can be done for it. its been quite the cold winter here. i have two pet pigeons myself. 

i dont know of an resources in other cities- as you have no doubt experienced, pigeons are not looked on kindly - but should be able to provide contact details for avian vet in most capital cities.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

kamz said:


> bella, my name is susie. just wondering where in australia you live? if you live in melbourne if you could catch the bird i would be happy to provide a temporary home for it and see what can be done for it. its been quite the cold winter here. i have two pet pigeons myself.
> 
> i dont know of an resources in other cities- as you have no doubt experienced, pigeons are not looked on kindly - but should be able to provide contact details for avian vet in most capital cities.


Dear Kamz,

Thank you for your very kind offer; I wish I lived in Melbourne, but I'm in Brisbane unfortunately. Its nice to know that I'm not the only Australian who cares for the feral birds as much as the native ones.

I'm sorry you've had a very cold winter, that must have been rough on you , and your local birds too. 

Were your pets wild when you took them in? I am wondering how a wild bird with a mate would feel about being made a captive, and would they adjust or feel stressed and confined?


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

i found my feral when he was a baby still - i think too young to ever really be considered wild - 17 days old. quite different to a fully formed adult. 

i have not had much experience with adult feral pigeons, so cannot really comment, other than to express my opinion that i feel the birds would adapt to being captive - and probably have a meaningful existence, without fear, pain or hunger. But if you want to have them as pets per ce - then they may well be fearful of humans. 

Even temporarily catching her could well improve her situation long term - 1 leg is better than none!. 

Best of luck, you have come to a wonderful place full of supportive people, who if you catch this birdie, will provide oodles of great advice. 

Susie


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Bella, if this bird can walk (and has a mate and life outside) what's the rationale for capturing her and keeping her captive? 

I understand all too well the desire to keep safe an individual we have come to care about, but I would not assume that she cannot survive outside just because she has a foot injury. Plenty of former string pigeons manage just fine (I personally have known birds with damage to one foot, both feet, with one foot missing, a bird with a bad splay leg and string damage to the other foot who survived at least 5 years outside, and even one with NO FEET who has been out there for at least three years now). I don't think it's accurate OR fair to the bird to state unequivocally that she has no chance of survival. That said, I do think that you should try to catch her to remove the string from the other foot before it forms a stricture (if it hasn't already) and the toes/foot incurs permanent damage. If she seems good and strong and can walk and fly fine, then I would not hesitate to release her again to her outdoor life with her mate. 

Jennifer


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jenfer said:


> Bella, if this bird can walk (and has a mate and life outside) what's the rationale for capturing her and keeping her captive?
> 
> I understand all too well the desire to keep safe an individual we have come to care about, but I would not assume that she cannot survive outside just because she has a foot injury. Plenty of former string pigeons manage just fine (I personally have known birds with damage to one foot, both feet, with one foot missing, a bird with a bad splay leg and string damage to the other foot who survived at least 5 years outside, and even one with NO FEET who has been out there for at least three years now). I don't think it's accurate OR fair to the bird to state unequivocally that she has no chance of survival. That said, I do think that you should try to catch her to remove the string from the other foot before it forms a stricture (if it hasn't already) and the toes/foot incurs permanent damage. If she seems good and strong and can walk and fly fine, then I would not hesitate to release her again to her outdoor life with her mate.
> 
> Jennifer


 Yes, sounds like she and her mate are having a wonderful time of it. She is constantly having others males jumping her, and him trying to fend them off. Eventually, he will also be injured by a tougher bird. By all means, release her to her wonderful life of freedom.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Bella F,

Came across a female pigeon at _Neumarkt_ ("New Market"), Cologne, in 2008. She was scraggly-looking. She was dragging a toe which had fallen off, still attached by a few inches of string. Noticed her male mate staying nearby, and chasing off other males. 

I surreptitiously fed her (and her mate) until she healed, toes fell off, and she looked healthy again.

Notes from log:



> May 30, 2008 Friday
> I go to 14:30 physiotherapy.
> I see a pigeon (*Taffy Toe-free*) at Neumarkt, with feet bound together by nylon fishing line. Right middle toe is black and gangrenous. Drop some seed for her.
> 
> ...




Note from my log, one year later:



> September 8, 2009
> See female pigeon Taffy Toe-Free at Neumarkt. Last saw her on October 30th of 2008. She recognizes me (without a beard, but with backpack), circles me at shoulder height, but I don’t have any seed with me.


Made lots of photos, and some video clips of her and her mate.
Moved to Antwerp in October 2009. 
Taffy Toe-Free may still be flying around Neumarkt.

Larry


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Yes, sounds like she and her mate are having a wonderful time of it. She is constantly having others males jumping her, and him trying to fend them off. Eventually, he will also be injured by a tougher bird. By all means, release her to her wonderful life of freedom.


Jay, you are contradicting even yourself here. You wrote in another thread:

"Well most adult ferals are not happy in captivity. They have lived free, and that is what they know. They don't usually become that tame just because you decide to keep them. If they are young enough, and haven't flown freely, there would be more chance of them being happy being kept. Letting them free fly and make their own decision is different. Or if they are unreleasable, and not safe to let them go back to the wild. Why take wild birds that want to be wild, when there are so many pigeons that need a home, and can't be turned loose, who need homes? Just doesn't make sense."

What I read here as relayed by Bella is that these two birds come to eat and then leave again, they won't get too close to the human, that the male "protects" the female, and that that the bird she is concerned about can walk fine. Are you making a psychic prediction that goes against both your own stated philosophy and Bella's observations? Are you sure that life in captivity is what this bird would want (contrary to all known indications) and not what *you* want for this bird so that you can feel better knowing that she is "safe"?

Jennifer


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> the point is for this bird to have a "former" string injury... not sure if that has happened yet?... and did not see one word of keeping the pigeon..just helping it..did I miss something?..lol.. anyway, if she does not catch it TO JUST LOOK IT OVER AND HELP GET THE STRING OFF, pehaps topical meds, the only point I see now is it is good to know pigeons can live out in the wild without feet...


Spirit, apparently you missed others stating unequivocally that this bird cannot be released and would not last long in the wild, and you also missed Bella saying "I'll keep trying to tame her enough to catch her, and also ask the local pet store if they know anyone who would keep a disabled feral pigeon as a pet (and her mate too, if possible)."


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jenfer;513010[B said:


> ]*Jay, you are contradicting even yourself here. You wrote in another thread:*[/B]
> 
> "Well most adult ferals are not happy in captivity. They have lived free, and that is what they know. They don't usually become that tame just because you decide to keep them. If they are young enough, and haven't flown freely, there would be more chance of them being happy being kept. Letting them free fly and make their own decision is different. Or if they are unreleasable, and not safe to let them go back to the wild. Why take wild birds that want to be wild, when there are so many pigeons that need a home, and can't be turned loose, who need homes? Just doesn't make sense."
> 
> ...



I made no contradiction there. So don't twist my words, thank you. In the other thread, I was obviously referring to healthy normal birds. Here, we are talking about a bird who has just lost a foot, and has string on the other, and is in danger of losing that one too. So how well do you think she will fare in the wild with no feet? or one gone, and the other so messed up that she cannot walk on it? Let's add to that, that she is constantly being topped by every male around, and her poor mate is constantly trying to defend her. Sounds like a great existence. If you can read, then you should be able to understand the difference.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Guys,

Some of you haven't read all of my posts. To recap, the pigeon is wild with a mate, and I suspect she has eggs or babies now. So its not a question of releasing her. Its a question of whether she needs to be captured in order to live. 

Two weeks ago, she could not stand or walk. She was being harrassed and raped by many male pigeons, so I made a safe spot for she and her mate to eat, up on my back deck. They don't get harrassed there and she can eat as much as she likes in peace. They come for 10 minutes or so and leave. 

Then one of her feet fell off and now she can stand and walk quickly enough to survive, I think. But it depends on her remaining foot....whether it is going to fall off too. It looks very bad, but so far I haven't been able to see it clearly enough to see if its being strangled by the string or not. There is definitely string on the remaining foot. 

I would like to be able to take the string off the remaining foot, and find out if the foot will survive, or fall off. Without any feet, she may need to be captured eventually, but meanwhile she can eat and drink all she wants on the safe spot on my deck.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Bella F,
> 
> 
> I surreptitiously fed her (and her mate) until she healed, toes fell off, and she looked healthy again.
> ...


Hi Larry,

Thank you very much for this account of helping Taffy....it helps a lot hearing about this experience, and how it worked out. 

I'm in a similar position, in that the effects of her String injury are still playing out- she's already lost a whole foot in past 2 weeks, and I'm not sure how much worse it will get, and will she lose the other foot too? The remaining foot still has string attached, and looks very bad......toes bent backwards, very bloated & enlarged & deformed looking.

If she loses both feet, its likely she won't be able to walk again, and the raping by other male pigeons will be a problem. It is my goal to assist her to live in the wild, but if she can't live out there due to being unable t walk, I need another plan for her.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> ..so not sure why she would think of keeping the pigeon captive by someone, unless it was not able to live out in the wild and suffer an agonizing life... but as you stated birds can live fine without feet... all the best to this injured hen.... good luck dear....


Hi Spirit wings,

I am also a strong believer that disabled birds have a right to their wild life, and that people can be too quick to rob them of their freedom and even their life because of their disabilities. I am friends with several wild disabled birds, that I've known for over 6 years. I provide a bit of supplement food to some of them, especially in bad weather, though they are mostly fully independent. They make do! They have mates, build nests, raise babies and have lives that are meaningful & natural to them. I am certain that many wildlife carers and vets would have deemed them unreleasable and killed them right off the bat, if they had the opportunity to do so.

This little pigeon is the worst case I've seen so far; she may lose both feet completely (not just toes). But if her remaining foot makes it, I think she'll do fine the way she is now. Both she and her mate are in otherwise very good condition.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Unless you can catch her, there isn't much chance of her remaining foot making it. I know that is easier said than done, believe me.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

jenfer said:


> Bella, if this bird can walk (and has a mate and life outside) what's the rationale for capturing her and keeping her captive?
> 
> Jennifer


Hey Jennifer,

I'd like to see if I can do something about the string attached to her remaining foot. Maybe I can take the string off?. The way it looks, there is a chance she will lose both feet, from the ankles down. If that happens, it would be nice to know of someone who might take her in and give her a good life. If it doesn't, I wouldn't dream of capturing her. I think she can survive with one missing foot.

Hugs, and thanks for your support.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Unless you can catch her, there isn't much chance of her remaining foot making it. I know that is easier said than done, believe me.


Hi Jay,

I can't see how anyone could possibly know that for sure, without seeing the foot and how the string is attached to it.

It could go either way, and I want to be prepared for both scenarios, without jumping to conclusions.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> Bella and Larry have stated that they have seen pigeons living without feet... so if you can not treat the one leg/foot.. then not much more to really talk about....



What I read from others were descriptions of pigeons living without toes, rather than without feet. I've seen many pigeons living without toes too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> *I can't see how anyone could possibly know that for sure, without seeing the foot and how the string is attached to it.*
> 
> It could go either way, and I want to be prepared for both scenarios, without jumping to conclusions.



Well you said that foot looked really bad. What do you suppose did that if not the string? Do you think it is not painful that way? Or will not get worse? String injuries usually get worse, not better. And it won't get any better with the string on it. So how does it "go either way"?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

jenfer said:


> Spirit, apparently you missed others stating unequivocally that this bird cannot be released and would not last long in the wild,


hmm maybe youre not quite reading true to the posts....


spirit wings said:


> If it was me, I would catch her, and see if you can do anything for her..if not then she would have to live a safer life with you.. if you help her you could release her back if that is what you decided...





Keith C. said:


> I think it would be best to catch both of them and see if you can help.
> If you can help, you can release them both together later, so that they can stay a pair and he can continue to protect her.
> If you can't help her condition, you will have to decide if you should keep the pair and care for them or let them go again.


Both these comments were made BEFORE the fact that the bird had already LOST one foot and do not suggest that the bird should be kept captive.



jenfer said:


> ...and you also missed Bella saying "I'll keep trying to tame her enough to catch her, and also ask the local pet store if they know anyone who would keep a disabled feral pigeon as a pet (and her mate too, if possible)."


This was AFTER the foot came off


and also taking things a bit out of context....


Jay3 said:


> It does sound as if it could be a string injury. Think you should try to catch both of them if posible and see if she can be helped. I don't see how she can just go on like this in the wild. Poor things.


From this post I dont see ANYTHING about not releasing once treated.

My other comment is why quote from another post which is obviously totally different circumstances and nothing to do with injured birds & will therefore have totally different reasoning to this ?

The final outcome of this will depend entirely IF the bird is captured and able to be helped, and after any help, if the bird is able to walk, if it chooses to leave or stay.

Bella: Keep up the good work in trying to capture this bird (or both) and whatever the outcome is I'm sure your descision will be based on the abillity of the bird.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Well you said that foot looked really bad. What do you suppose did that if not the string? Do you think it is not painful that way? Or will not get worse? String injuries usually get worse, not better. And it won't get any better with the string on it. So how does it "go either way"?


It does look really bad. But if she loses toes only (or nothing else at all), I believe she can make it in the wild, as she can walk quickly now, and stand up.

Jay, for me it is a HUGE decision to take a bird out of the wild, and potentially away from her dependent chicks. I would only do it if I am certain she cannot live without being captured. Its not a certainty at this point...but I am planning for the loss of her foot just in case. There's NO guarantee I can find a home for her anyway. Australians don't like feral pigeons much.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Quazar said:


> h
> 
> Bella: Keep up the good work in trying to capture this bird (or both) and whatever the outcome is I'm sure your descision will be based on the abillity of the bird.


Thankyou Quazar, for properly reading my posts & hearing me I know everyone is trying to help me, but not everyone is really hearing what I'm saying.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

Hey bella. my names Phil im on the Goldcoast if it looks like she will need to be captured i would be more than happy to offer a permanent home for her and her mate if need be. i havnt got any pigeons of my own yet however i have treated many injured birds over the years. 

Anyway just thought id let you know there is a home waiting for her if you decide to go down that path. 

cheers phil.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well that is very kind of you Phil.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> It does look really bad. But if she loses toes only (or nothing else at all), I believe she can make it in the wild, as she can walk quickly now, and stand up.
> 
> Jay, for me it is a HUGE decision to take a bird out of the wild, and potentially away from her dependent chicks. I would only do it if I am certain she cannot live without being captured. Its not a certainty at this point...but I am planning for the loss of her foot just in case. There's NO guarantee I can find a home for her anyway. Australians don't like feral pigeons much.


Don't wait too long, Bella or you may find that it's too late and you'll be wishing you can turn back the clock.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

So, if you read my posts, you will know she is probably sitting on a nest right now.

Are you saying its ok to take a mother pigeon away from her babies, leaving them to die, just in case she might not be able to walk in the future, although she is walking fine now?

I'm not ok with that. I'm not ok with her losing her foot if I could have prevented it either. I feel very stuck.

Seriously, who thinks the babies should be left to die, just in case the mother's remaining foot *might* fall off? What if it doesn't fall off?

And what about waiting until her babies are independent, then trying to catch her?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Bella_F said:


> So, if you read my posts, you will know she is probably sitting on a nest right now.
> 
> Are you saying its ok to take a mother pigeon away from her babies, leaving them to die, just in case she might not be able to walk in the future, although she is walking fine now?
> 
> ...


Hi Bella,

I think you have just answered all your own questions and with the right answers 

Leave the Mama to raise her babies .. hope for the best, but plan for the worst meaning that you have to catch her after the babies are grown.

Terry


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> I think you have just answered all your own questions and with the right answers
> 
> ...


Hi Terry!

I really appreciate your response & support. May I ask you, how long would it be until her brood are independent of her once they left the nest?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Terry!
> 
> I really appreciate your response & support. May I ask you, how long would it be until her brood are independent of her once they left the nest?


The little ones are going to leave the nest at about 3 weeks and will be pretty much self sufficient at 6 weeks assuming that Dad did his job well. Dad takes care of the young from about 3 weeks on ..

Safe to say that you could take Mom at 3-4 weeks of age of the babies as Dad is already raising them at that point.

Terry


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a million for the info, Terry

May I also ask you, do you think they should both be caught, to keep them as a couple, or would that be too cruel towards him, since he is in good health?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pigeons mate for life, Bella.


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## PigeonX (Oct 17, 2010)

hi, could you get some pictures of her and here mate. I also have a young black hen that has a leg problem. The leg is swelled and has ben swelled for the last two weeks. I thought it would eventually become better but i seems that its getting worst. It could also be an infection. i have no meds and hopefully it heals on its own.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the info Charis.

PigeonX, Yes I'll try to get pics. I've been waiting for an opportunity to photograph her legs, so I can look at the remaining foot better, but so far no luck.

Sorry to hear your pigeon has a bad leg


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

Well looks like everything i said in the private message has been answerd. definetly let her raise her babies she deserves that at the very least. just an idea i had maybe try feeding them in a bob trap (with out the trap part) so they get used to walking in and out of a box so if you do need to catch them it would be rather easy.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I made no contradiction there. So don't twist my words, thank you. In the other thread, I was obviously referring to healthy normal birds.


Other than missing one foot, this bird is otherwise healthy according to what Bella has relayed and has obviously been surviving outside, with a bit of help from Bella.



> Here, we are talking about a bird who has just lost a foot, and has string on the other, and is in danger of losing that one too. So how well do you think she will fare in the wild with no feet? or one gone, and the other so messed up that she cannot walk on it? Let's add to that, that she is constantly being topped by every male around, and her poor mate is constantly trying to defend her. Sounds like a great existence. If you can read, then you should be able to understand the difference.


Why are you jumping to conclusions that she will lose the entire other foot? Have you seen the string injury? If Bella is able to catch her, she may well be able to get the string off leaving no major damage, or at least damage she can cope with. Yet you are already saying she *will not* make it out there; it's one thing to state an opinion that her chances may be reduced or that she may have a harder time, but instead you categorically state that she *will not* survive. If you can think, you should be able to understand the difference. Your projections ("sounds like a great existence") don't necessarily match reality, and as such, don't necessarily benefit the pigeons.

Jennifer


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hey Jennifer,
> 
> I'd like to see if I can do something about the string attached to her remaining foot. Maybe I can take the string off?. The way it looks, there is a chance she will lose both feet, from the ankles down. If that happens, it would be nice to know of someone who might take her in and give her a good life. If it doesn't, I wouldn't dream of capturing her. I think she can survive with one missing foot.
> 
> Hugs, and thanks for your support.


Bella, it sounds like you are thinking about this in a really reasonable, rational manner. I hope you can help her get the string off before too much damage occurs. Can you tell if it's still loose (I am guessing it's somewhat tight if it's hard to see)? Are the toes discolored? Is there swelling?

As I mentioned, I have known many "disabled" birds as well. One had a bad splay leg and the other foot was damaged from string, and despite that, he was one of the strongest (and smartest) birds in the flock. I knew him for a few years, but people in the neighborhood said he had been around for at least five. I've known other birds who were missing entire feet who have been in the flock for years. There's even a bird who has lost both feet who comes to my place to eat. She doesn't even come every day and when she does, she has to compete with many, many other birds. She's been out there for at least three years, so obviously she can fend for herself.

I think in this case, I would consider catching her, removing the string, and releasing her again right afterward (make sure there's no bleeding). If she's walking on that foot now, she should be able to walk on it with the string gone too.

Jennifer


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can't really decide what is the best way to proceed, Bella until you catch the bird and have a look at the feet. Don't wait too long though, or you may be playing the ...*if only...*game in your head.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> how can anyone really know how old their babies are or if she is just on eggs or maybe not.. how can you time it? she will lay two more when the babies are 2 to 3 weeks old and not yet weaned...so you will take her off her next set of eggs..? when? when the babies are weaned but the eggs are developing...how can anyone know that unless they can watch them in the nest... not sure how one can know 100% where in this hole nesting cycle she is... if you are seeing her with her mate they could have babies...older ones?.. if you see them apart then they are on eggs/just hatched young? .... but how will you know for sure your not going to be leaving babies behind at any point.... I don't get it... will you just be guessing?.... and really none of this even matters if you can not catch her... does not seem like that is going to happen anytime soon, and the foot is not going to stay the same..it is going to progress. and heal over at some point. would like to see an update when she can be treated and released...otherwise all this is moot...



Thank you for saving me the time of typing every word of that.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Noisy_minor said:


> Well looks like everything i said in the private message has been answerd. definetly let her raise her babies she deserves that at the very least. just an idea i had maybe try feeding them in a bob trap (with out the trap part) so they get used to walking in and out of a box so if you do need to catch them it would be rather easy.


Dear Phil!,

That's a brilliant idea- thanks so much for suggesting it. 

Thanks once again for offering she & her mate some options for a having a good life together, if things don't go well with her remaining foot. It means so much to me. 

I am hoping to get some photos of her foot as well, but they stay such a short time at the moment that I've felt that its more improtant to let her eat her food, than to frighten her with my camera. Hopefully when her nesting phase is over she'll spend more time here again so I'll have more opportunities to photograph her.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jenfer said:


> *Other than missing one foot, this bird is otherwise healthy according to what Bella has relayed* and has obviously been surviving outside, with a bit of help from Bella.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Saying that this bird is otherwise healthy is ludicrous. She has a string injury on the other foot. HEELLLLOOOOOOOOOO! That will not get better on its own. It will get worse. It CAN'T get better on its own. It can ONLY get worse. I wouldn't call that healthy. Odd that you would. If she could catch the bird, and maybe help it before it is too late, then she may be able to survive. But she isn't going to do that. She is to concerned about the fact that they MAY have babies somewhere. Can't know that for sure. And certainly can't assume what age they would be, or how long til they are weaned. So, nothing will be done, just in case she has babies somewhere. That is also ludicrous. You KNOW she needs help now. You can't KNOW that she has dependant babies. So take care of the obvious, before it is too late. Or the same thing will very likely happen to the other foot. Without any feet, a bird can't even perch with the rest of the flock, if they were to perch somewhere that you need to be able to hold on. Actually, she can't even do that with one good foot. How long do you think she can run around on stubs without causing soars and infection? She needs one good foot. Save the foot, and don't worry about imaginary babies. I think that is just an excuse to do nothing at all. So let her other painful foot continue as it is, just in case she has squabs somewhere. I think you're all nuts. I'm done here.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> how can anyone really know how old their babies are or if she is just on eggs or maybe not.. how can you time it? she will lay two more when the babies are 2 to 3 weeks old and not yet weaned...so you will take her off her next set of eggs..? .


If that is the case- that the pigeon breeding cycle never ends, and she will be continuously raising babies- then I cannot ethically take her out of the wild and have her babies starve to death, not while she can walk. 

The problem with catching her `just to have a look' at the foot is I doubt she'd ever trust me again, or come here for food again once she was released.

The if her foot falls off, what hope has she got?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Saying that this bird is otherwise healthy is ludicrous. She has a string injury on the other foot.


Jay, Thank you for your help and I'm sorry that this thread made you feel frustrated and angry, and if you felt like your advice was unwanted. That's not the case at all; I've appreciated all you have said & had to offer, just as I've appreciated opposite points of views to your own. This is not a simple matter, I hope you can see that. There's truth in what everyone has been kind enough to say to me. I feel pulled in all directions.

I am not taking a `wild guess' regarding the babies; there are some very obvious & strong signs. Also, please remember its Mid Spring here in Australia, the peak of the breeding season for my local ferals. Its not mid Autumn like America.


Anyway, i want you to know that my efforts with her are ongoing , and you have helped.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> good point... guess it is interesting to hear that jenfer has seen one(pigeon) without feet for three years.... tough little boogers they are if that is the case... seems to me infection would set in and make them sick.. I do not know much about feet problems... maybe that location there is not enough flesh to get infected?... perhaps someone can explain more on this topic while you wait it out and observe.


Hey Spiritwings,

I don't know much about this either, so I am appreciating all the feedback and ideas everyone is throwing at me. I do know wild birds who have recovered from horrific foot and leg injuries (or made do in spite of them). They are not Pigeons, but rather Native Australian birds.

Its weird with the foot falling off. She was walking on the stump the next day a bit. Its been a few days now, and she's perfectly comfortable waking on it now, as if there is no pain now. She can do a quick walk towards food when she's excited, no worries at all, or limping. There's no sign of infection or swelling on the stump.

I'm getting the overall impression that the feet were tied tightly together, and that's why she couldn't stand or walk. Losing one foot has enabled her legs to separate, and also loosened the string on the remaining foot. There a bit of string dragging out behind her remaining foot; it could be unravelling all on its own. I don't want to jump to conclusions though.

Its just really hard to get a look, because they are flying in and out so quickly at the moment, I barely get a glimpse of them. I'm trying my best to see & photograph the foot. She will come in 1-2 hours time.

Hugs, thanks for your help.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

I think everyone here has made some valid points as to capture or not, and I think nearly everyone agrees that the foot needs to be looked at closely to find out the extent of the damage. 
I also understand the dilema as to whether it has young or not, hence the possibility of leaving it a couple of weeks, but also consider if it gets worse during that time then the young may well suffer anyway.
I do notice that there has been a little change in circumstances however that may increase the risk of danger to this bird if the string is not removed.


Bella_F said:


> I'm getting the overall impression that the feet were tied tightly together, and that's why she couldn't stand or walk. Losing one foot has enabled her legs to separate, and also loosened the string on the remaining foot. *There a bit of string dragging out behind her remaining foot; it could be unravelling all on its own*. I don't want to jump to conclusions though


It is possible that this piece of trailing string could get caught on something else, and with the other foot missing, the bird would find great difficulty in either regaining balance or flying off in the presance of a predator.
It may be that the string would come free from the bird if it did get caught, but its also more probable that it could tighten and leave the bird in distress with no way of getting free.
Just another point to consider and unfortunately add to your dilema.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks once again for your advice Quazar,

I realize I need to get good photos of the foot ASAP. I have all the right gear adn lenses for that, but its frustrating, as she seems to be coming in and leaving again very quickly. I didn't even get to see her today. (This is part of why I think she's on eggs or small fledglings- normally she'd eat leisurely and stay around for most of the day)

I really hope that bad things everyone is suggesting don't happen to her. I'm doing my best.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> Saying that this bird is otherwise healthy is ludicrous. She has a string injury on the other foot. HEELLLLOOOOOOOOOO! That will not get better on its own. It will get worse. It CAN'T get better on its own. It can ONLY get worse. I wouldn't call that healthy. Odd that you would.


Jay, how ironic that you implied that I was the one with reading comprehension problems. I said the bird is otherwise (meaning other than the string issue) healthy. I also told Bella that I would try to catch her to remove the string from the other foot before it forms a stricture and starts to cause permanent damage. 



> The problem with catching her `just to have a look' at the foot is I doubt she'd ever trust me again, or come here for food again once she was released.


Bella, I know just what you mean that you see telltale signs that the pair are currently raising young. I have seen the same in pairs in my flocks.

Would it be possible to use a video camera or digital camera to zoom in on her foot so that you can get a better look? I think that my goal would be to catch her not just to have a look, but to remove the thread. If the string is tight, it most likely will not unravel on its own. In my experience, there have been very few (close to none, actually) string pigeons who have needed extended care. I also wouldn't assume she won't come back once you've caught her once. She might be a bit wary for a while, but I think there's a good chance she will come back. Most of the string pigeons I've caught and released have come back to the spot; some of them come back immediately as if nothing had happened.

Jennifer


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

jenfer said:


> Jay, how ironic that you implied that I was the one with reading comprehension problems. I said the bird is otherwise (meaning other than the string issue) healthy. I also told Bella that I would try to catch her to remove the string from the other foot before it forms a stricture and starts to cause permanent damage.


Is it possible to actually stop the ongoing *****ing ? Its now getting both tedious and childish and would be nice if for once if people would stop having a go at each other every time they post a suggestion


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

jenfer said:


> Bella, I know just what you mean that you see telltale signs that the pair are currently raising young. I have seen the same in pairs in my flocks.
> 
> Would it be possible to use a video camera or digital camera to zoom in on her foot so that you can get a better look?
> 
> Jennifer


I'm going to give it my best- I have both a video camera and a good DSLR. Thanks for the idea about the video camera! 

I've been out on the deck with my camera while she's feeding, ready to get a picture, but that was when she was still sitting on her tummy all the time & I couldn't see her feet at all. I've been waiting all this time just to get close to her and see what is wrong.

Now that she's finally a bit tamer and able to stand, I have been able to get these few glimpses of her feet, but she's not spending time here now....just popping in for quick bite and leaving. She just eats the sunflower seeds and some meat, then flies away for the rest of the day, instead of leisurely eating all types of seed like before.



> I think that my goal would be to catch her not just to have a look, but to remove the thread. If the string is tight, it most likely will not unravel on its own. In my experience, there have been very few (close to none, actually) string pigeons who have needed extended care. I also wouldn't assume she won't come back once you've caught her once. She might be a bit wary for a while, but I think there's a good chance she will come back. Most of the string pigeons I've caught and released have come back to the spot; some of them come back immediately as if nothing had happened.


Thanks so much for that reassurance. i am only experienced with Wild Native Australian birds, and if you capture one, even if you've been hand feeding it for years, it will not only never come to you again, but it will also leave the entire area. Its very reassuring to know Pigeons are not necessarily the same. Thanks a million!


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Quazar said:


> Is it possible to actually stop the ongoing *****ing ? Its now getting both tedious and childish and would be nice if for once if people would stop having a go at each other every time they post a suggestion


If someone misrepresents or misinterprets my position, you'd better believe that I am going to clarify. If that to you is synonymous with "*****ing," that is very unfortunate, but I'm not going to let misinformation stand.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> She just eats the sunflower seeds and some meat, then flies away for the rest of the day, instead of leisurely eating all types of seed like before.


Pigeons are naturally granivores, so I think I'd stick with the seeds, although it's interesting that she is eating the meat (maybe she's looking for high fat/protein right now?). It does sound like she is busy nesting, which will likely make it difficult to catch her right now. How long has she been coming and leaving quickly like this?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> Bella, why are you giving meat?


The little bits of minced meat are for another family of birds who are raising their babies right now. We feed it to them by hand on our deck, then they take it down to the floor of the deck and smash it around a bit into smaller bits for the babies, and fly off with it.

Occasionally a wild pigeon will have a strong craving for the meat and peck up the leftovers. I've seen Native pigeons do it too, but its rare. Like Jennifer, I assume its the ones who need the fat and/or protein due to stress or illness. 

Since the Pigeon with the sore foot is nesting and has has had her legs tied together, I figured she might be trying to put on some weight and have a craving related to breeding.




,


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

jenfer said:


> It does sound like she is busy nesting, which will likely make it difficult to catch her right now. How long has she been coming and leaving quickly like this?


Hi Jen,

She's been behaving this way for about 2 weeks. Before then, she would be here for an entire afternoon at a time. Now she only comes in the mornings, leaves after eating quickly, and doesn't return in the afternoons. Her mate has been regurgitating food to her .

Between a month and three weeks ago, we saw her being mated with by multiple males including her own mate.

Jen, Do you know how long it takes the eggs to hatch?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I tried to take pics today, but it was raining and dark on the deck, so they came out blurry. They stayed only 3 minutes  

From what I did see, there are two good toes on the remaining foot, but one of them is bent under the foot somehow, because of the string. But it is still healthy. There are at least another two toes that are darkish grey. They look like they are dying and will fall off. The string must have cut off the blood supply.

I also got a better look at the `stump' of her other foot. She still has a foot afterall, but all the toes fell off.

I have a question for those who have helped string injured birds before: Is it better to take the string off a gangrenous toe, or will it spread the gangrene to other parts of the bird when the tornique (string) is removed?


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Bella, I think the incubation period is 18 days (someone else please correct me if I'm wrong).

From what you describe, it sounds like she will likely lose at least two of the four toes?

Taking the string off will not cause the remaining toes to get affected (it's not a contagious type of gangrene; just kind of a direct result of loss of circulation), but if I am very sure that the toe is going to fall off (and usually I am only sure if the toe is black), I often remove the rest of the string but leave the string that's on the affected toe as a sort of tourniquet for the toe to fall off in its own time. Some people remove all of the string and then amputate the toe. Some others might remove it all and then keep the bird in rehab until the toe falls off an its own.

Jennifer


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for being so patient with me Jenfer, and for answering my questions.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

*Update*

Thanks to everyone who has helped me; I want to provide an update for those interested.

She is still coming every day for food, though the time of her arrival has changed, and she no longer comes with her mate. I read that breeding pigeons share shifts of caring for eggs and young, so I expect this explains it.

Without her mate, she has been a lot shier and difficult to feed. I tried feeding her in a cage in hope of helping her with the string on her foot, but she didn't want to do anything strange like that. 

She will now only eat on the corner of my outdoor table now, where there is quick access to fly off, and it takes a lot of coaxing to get her to do that after this whole trying to catch her business. So I've been letting her be and trying to regain her trust again. My feelings are that its best to focus on getting regular food into her, especially now that she is a lot more wary of me.

Her feet are pretty much stable. She favors the one that lost all its toes at the moment, but the one with string on it still has two good toes, and two dying ones.

I think she'll be ok; she is a fat, healthy looking pigeon and this probably helped a lot when her feet became binded up with string.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Bird watching is nice to do for sure... I enjoy all the birds that come to my feeder.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I do not appreciate your extremely rude & belittling comment, Spirit Wings. 

What I did for this bird is a lot more than `bird watching'. I probably saved this bird's life. I provided her with abundant food and a safe place for her to eat daily when she could not walk & was being harassed too much to eat. I have continued to provide this food and safety daily, so that her young will also have a chance at survival. 

Just because someone can't or won't accept your arm-chair advice, doesn't mean they are doing nothing. In your efforts to help people, you have also become a mean natured control freak, spirit wings. You've lost your way.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> I do not appreciate your extremely rude & belittling comment, Spirit Wings.
> 
> What I did for this bird is a lot more than `bird watching'. I probably saved this bird's life. I provided her with abundant food and a safe place for her to eat daily when she could not walk & was being harassed too much to eat. I have continued to provide this food and safety daily, so that her young will also have a chance at survival.
> 
> Just because someone can't or won't accept your arm-chair advice, doesn't mean they are doing nothing. In your efforts to help people, you have also become a mean natured control freak, spirit wings. You've lost your way.


whoa..wait a minute... where in what way was I being rude? this is very confusing to me.. I was admiring your watchfulness of this pair and just stated I love and do the same.. Im not sure what you are even thinking I did... the birds here are a bright spot for me and it seems yours are as well, I was just sharing it, that is all.. but it is good to know what kind of person you assume me to be, you do not even know me.. you lost YOUR way as far as this post attacking me for a reason I can't figure out.. as far as my armchair advise..I have worked at a vet hospital for almost 20 years and do the best I can.. but this being a wild bird issue.. I just shared how much I enjoy it as well..I have cared for and release alot of birds here and feed them from my feeder and give them the food they need esp in winter...so if that is something that does not sit right with you then, there is nothing I can do about that but say Im sorry you saw something in a innocent post and would never want to intentionally make someone mad.. too much has been said so I will not comment on any thread of yours and you do the same for me.. and my birds at my feeder are just as important, sorry you do not feel that way.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Spirit Wings, I wasn't even remotely discussing the `joy of bird watching' or `happy times at my bird feeder' and you know it. Your post came across as a very snarky accusation of `bird watching' (...instead of doing what YOU think I should do for this injured bird).

I am trying to do my best for her & her family with the resources I have available ; its stressful as hell. Not to mention I've been nursing a dying Squeaker this week and trying to save a Pied Butcherbird that was hit by a car right in front of me. I feel like my heart has been squished this week from seeing so much suffering.

Watching any hurt bird come to my feeder each day is not at all pleasurable. It hurts like hell.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Ahh .. let's cool it here!

Bella, I really don't see anything in spirit wings' post that is rude or a put down. On these forums (just as in life generally) we can sometimes react to what we think somebody _meant_ rather than what they actually _said_, read stuff 'between the lines' that isn't there to be read, etc. Bet most of us have done so at some time.

Looking through, seems to me that regardless of different views, people appreciate you have done what you reasonably could here.

There's a feral round here who will be in his 12th year now (pretty good going). Nine years ago he lost both feet due to string, thread or whatever round them, and has since managed to waddle on stumps when he needs to. He always comes when he sees me in the courtyard, and I always have peanuts for him. I couldn't catch him at the time, and he survived anyway.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi John,

Whilst I found your invalidating comments hurtful, and I do not appreciate the fact that it resulted in spirit wings amping up the abuse via PM, I do really appreciate your encouraging story.

Its great that she has managed to survive for 9 years out in the wild in spite of the injury. That gives me some hope (although I am also hoping that an opportunity will come up to catch this one & help her when she spends more time here again).


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Whilst I found your invalidating comments hurtful, and I do not appreciate the fact that it resulted in spirit wings amping up the abuse via PM, I do really appreciate your encouraging story.
> 
> Its great that she has managed to survive for 9 years out in the wild in spite of the injury. That gives me some hope (although I am also hoping that an opportunity will come up to catch this one & help her when she spends more time here again).


If you would like me to share my pm publicly I would be glad to do so...abuse is what you did to me, but did not want to add more drama to this thread of yours.. but to let all know there was no abuse in my PM.. too bad this thread got off track, but I have to defend myself, as Iam innocent of these charges, and if you keep slandering my name, I will have to post it.. or this thread should be shut down..and you can start a new one..with a promise of no posts from me of course..


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

spirit wings is on /ignore.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> spirit wings is on /ignore.


well if you want to play that game.. I can do the same.. so whatever you post I will be there to say something just like that, and defend MYSELF ..see how you like it... if you can just drop this crazy notion and move on I will be so happy, but not when you keep typing these hostile post about me. I feel like I have gone to the twilght zone.. I just do not get this...


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

As a mod/admin, I can only call it as I see it. If there is nothing overtly offensive in a post, then I cannot say different. 

I cannot make assumptions about what may or may not be inferred, or make any comment based on private messages (which neither I nor anybody else on the team can see). 

This thread is closed


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