# Please help: advice on injured pigeon



## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi 
I have an injured pigeon. Advice would be appreciated. 

He (?) is an adult city pigeon. I found him huddled in the rain today. He has a bald spot on his head that is swollen, and the right side of his face around his eye is very swollen, but there is no blood. Also, I think his right wing is probably broken, as it is drooping down. I think these may be relatively old injuries, as the bald spot on his head looks like it’s been missing feathers for a while. I actually initially thought it might be his *skull* even, without skin, but, I think there is skin there. 

I put him in my bathtub (lined with papers) and made him a nest with papers in a low box. He ate some bread today while I was at work and tonight had more, plus water. He sits, dully, but does eat fairly enthusiastically. His poop was green, I think maybe he was just eating grass before. 

Besides the chopped wheat bread, I offered him a little dry catfood, some brown rice (uncooked) and some frozen peas. But really I think he only likes the bread. 

Questions: 
1. what to feed him? 
2. should I try and tape the wing in place, and if so, what is the best way to do it? what kind of tape? I don’t want to hurt him when the tape has to come off by pulling feathers or pulling on the wing. 
3. any other advice? 

thanks! I will check back here but also I can be reached directly at [email protected]


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cute email. I guess we know where you stand on some issues.

On the wing:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/brokenwing.html

There is some consideration for how old the injury is but I guess we'll get to that later. Can you take a picture of the head wound and swelling?

As to food, if he's a city pigeon he might very well not recognize some of the better foods that he should be eating.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here are drawings of a skeleton that may help you in determining if there is a broken wing:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

They can sometimes let a wing hang for other reasons. You'll need to feel the wing for swelling, odd bumps and fresh/dried blood in the feathers. You can compare it to the good wing if you find an anomaly. There may also be an odd looseness.

Masking tape works for that kind of thing but it's fun getting it off later. It's not so bad if you use forceps to pull each individual sticking feather off of it, though.

I'll email you some pages from a veterinary manual regarding fractures as well.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Anyhow, he should eat wild bird seed even though he might not know how. They can eat peas, corn, barley, wheat, safflower seeds, small black (unroasted and unsalted) sunflower seeds in the hull (or chips), RAW and unsalted peanuts, hemp seeds (not what you're thinking) and... other stuff. You can certainly use dry puppy chow in a pinch. 

If you can weigh him, he could probably use about 10 to 15% of his weight in a hydrated meal three times per day. Can you feel his "keel" (like the keel of a boat) to see if it really sticks out like a knife-edge or whether it's surrounded by plenty of flesh?

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

*update...*

Fantastic. Thanks for your help.
I went and bought the non-stick tape, but, I don’t know if I’m going to bind the wing or not. I tried it a couple times, with different widths of tape, but he could not/would not walk with the wing bound. I tried hard to make sure the movement of his legs was not impeded but I think it was more of a balance thing. I’ll see how he’s doing tomorrow and maybe try again but I don’t like putting him through that, it’s very stressful for him. He just lies there, breathing heavily. 

I think he’s pretty thin. He doesn’t weigh much for such a big bird, and I can feel his breastbone. 

I don’t have seeds here now but can get tomorrow. He really loves that bread and I think he might have eaten a pea or two. What about protein? the catfood is ok, right? Should I soak it a bit before giving it to him? 

thanks again. you are a godsend.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

oh... plus.. my digital camera is broken, so I can't take a picture. But I did a close inspection. the right side of his face is pretty swollen, but, his right eye is operational.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi Artimisia,

Thank you for caring for the pigeon. I really think that wild bird seed is the way to go, just as Pigey mentioned.

Where are you located? It may be possible to get some help from another member (if you want it) depending on your location.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm in DC. 
I don't mind caring for the bird, though the bathtub may not be a sustainable option... 
if he lives, I guess he'll need a cage! 
I can stop by the pet store tomorrow and pick up some seed. 
thanks again for the help. what did we do before the internet??!


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

It's so nice that there are people like you around which care about all living beings. And it's also wonderful that you are comitted to do what is best for the poor hurt pigeon you came across.

The wing setting option only works if the break was recent, if the break is old taping the wing won't do any good.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Well... pigeons are people, too. 

I do think it's an old injury. Which means he's been living with it and managing to eat... but he was def on the way out when I found him this morning. Cold, wet, and huddled. 

He is moving the wing. I just hope it doesn't hurt him too much.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi there Unapolegetic Tree Hugger (I'm one too and don't feel any guilt about it whatsoever.

If the Poops are green, and I am referring to bright green, it usually suggests, as in a case like yours, starvation. I have no idea why that color comes out when pigeons don't get enough food but I have experienced it first-hand myself. Keep an eye on those poops and try to get your bird some pigeon-mix preferably, but in a crunch, wild bird seed. Sounds like yours might just be used to a junk food diet if he prefers bread to seed and might at first turn his nose up at the good stuff not knowing what it is. Keep us posted, especially if you are needing help and advice. The folks here have a wealth of pigeon knowledge to offer so don't be shy about asking.

Generally, pigeons don't eat meat unless they are very hungry. They are seed/grain/nut eaters so try and offer what you have on hand for the moment. Crushed up/cut-up peanuts but only those that are salt free may be happily accepted. Do you have any dried yellow or green split peas in the cupboard. Mine love those. Unpopped popcorn kernels tend to go down well with the birds but avoid the stuff in microwave bags as it is treated and too salty. Sesame seeds might be OK. Mine won't touch them even though they are good food but if yours eats it then that's fine. Uncooked brown or white rice but not too much as it tends to expand too much in their crop after being eaten. 

Other handy cupboard stuff is dried lentils or frozen peas or corn for example and some people have fed their birds crushed up dry dog kibble in a pinch although I can't recommend it as I have never used it myself. It is essentially a meatless grain product in dry form though.

Hopefully this short list helps you out for tonight. Best to get some good seed and preferably a pigeon-mix as soon as you can though. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artemisia,



Well, good work so far...!


Others have provided a good amount of useful info above...


But I wished to add that you would do well to make sure your Bird is warm... so, if your Bathroom has a heater in it, maybe run the heater so it is nice and "warm" in there...if it is 100 degrees or so, that is just fine...

I used to keep my Bathroom at around that or a tad more for the Winter injured or ill ones to get situated pending a warm cage being arranged ( or built from scratch if need be...)

Or, if you have one on hand, or can get one easily, consider to set up an regular Electric Heating Pad for him to be on or off as he sees fit. You may prudently set it to 'medium' with a small Towell layed over it, and, if this seems too warm, merely lay another small towell on top of that in a loose rumpled way for him to lay on if he wants ( mind often do...!)

Their Boidy temp is around 105 and every bit of energy they can save not having to make themselves warm, is energy they can put to use for healing and mending.

You can allow him drinking Water in which you have dissolved some plain table Salt and plain granulated Sugar, say to the tune of one good pinch each for a glass full, and this can help replenish his electolytes...

Likely he had had little to nothing to eat and drink for a while...till you brought him home...


Let us know how the poops are looking as they progress from green dabs to whatever is next...just go ahead and describe for us them once they are happenning...

As for his head...the skin there should look delicate, slightly moist, and a little bit wrinkley with some tiny wrinkles, but if it is swollen then the wrinkley aspect might be stretched...but, anything more you could add to your description of this would be useful for trying to understand what his injury there was or is...if any scabs or dried blood or as may be...


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Just an added mention since I didn't seem to notice you said this first time around, dry catfood is probably fine very short term but do understand that pigeons beaks are not designed to break large pieces, say nuts for example that some small birds do very easily. The dried cat-food should be crushed up into small bite-size pieces for a pigeon to be able to handle it comfortably. And nothing too sharp. Like I was saying they don't have those strong nut-cracking beaks so this is important for you to know.

The other thing is, have you noticed any flakes, small or large, like dandruff on his feathers or on the papers he is sitting on. This is could be a sign of serious dehydration and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. Let us know as there are some very simple and effective treatments for this situation too. God Bless and I hope all is well with your pigeon in the morning. 

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, taping the wing as shown in the references does cause them to initially lose their balance and it's something they have to get used to. It's best if they're in a padded box for the first day or so. It just fails to mention that in the references.

If you can describe what anomalies you've felt in the bones of the wing in detail, we might be able to get a clearer picture of how to deal with it. For instance, I had one where both the radius and ulna were broken and that section was foreshortened (between the backward-pointing elbow that's closest to the wing body and furthest-forward curvature of the wrist of the wing). My efforts there were to put that section in traction to restore the length and to immobilize the entire wing with sticky tape. In the end, he can barely fly now, a half-year later, but he CAN fly. I have several that can't.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi everyone - 
I'm really amazed at the feedback, thank you so much! So, here's an update - that is interesting about the green color of the poops being associated with starvation, I don't doubt that's what is going on, since they were bright green. 

Pidge is up this morning, ate more bread (soaked in water) and had a good long drink from his bowl. But, he just sits. I think his head really hurts him, he sits with his eyes closed and occasionally gives his head a little shake. 

I'll pick up some raw seed/nuts tonight, but I suspect he won't know what to do with it. He'd probably prefer pizza, that's what all the city pigeons seem to like best! He doesn't seem to be interested in the chopped green peas I offered (sweet peas - from the freezer). 

thanks again for everyone's help and interest.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

New update: 
pigeon's poops are still green but I think he ate bread and maybe peas today. When I got home I brought him quinoa, sunflower seeds, raw pumpkin seeds, and raw almonds. I chopped all that up. The sunflower seeds were a hit, for sure. 

He must be feeling better because he's pecking at me when my hand is too near. I did hold him for a while and scratched under his chin and he sortof shut his eyes. 

I took another shot at binding the wing but he struggled out of the bandage and I'm afraid all that thrashing around will hurt the wing more. So I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave it. I couldn't feel any specific place where it feels wrong, but, I didn't want to poke too much, either. 

That's it for now! 
thanks.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimesia,



Well, just regular 'Wild Bird Seed' is very good and easy also, and in many ways much better than packaged Nuts and their likes from Stores, where, once the skin of the Nut was broken in processing, the nut meat goes rancid very quickly. Then the actual nutrition falls way down, as well as that the rancidity interferes with assimilation of Vitamines...


So, if you can, either actual so called 'Pigeon Mix' which will contain dried whole Peas...or, the plain old 'Wild Bird Seed' that many Grocery Stores ( or 'Pet Smart' ) carry will be good...

Small size, old fashioned, "plain", the kind you have to pop yourself in a hot skillet or 'popper', in the bulk bags, raw 'Popcorn' either Yellow or White is very nice for them and most Pigeons like it very much and it is easy to get at any Grocery Store...


Otherwise, the 'green poops' of 'starvation' are indeed something that looks like dabs of brilliant green or very 'green' Artist's 'tube oils'...

If your Bird is eating now, there should be some real poops going on in no time...so...lettuce-snow on that once you see some...



Your Bird might be ill as well as having suffered privations. Broken Bones, even when not commutated, can result in Staff infections...as well as that privation itself from whatever reason tends to weaken their natural resistance to various organisms...

Is there any bits of 'yellow' hairs on his Feather ends or head feathers? Is their Tail short?

Can you post some images? Or get a friend to help do so if need be?

I am wondering if this is an adolescent or maybe young adult...

Where their Beak meets their forehead, is a fleshy bilaterally symetrical protuberance we call their 'wattles'. In an Adult Pigeon these are frosty white, and in a sub-adult they are pinkish and not prominent or bulgy...

Anyway...

Keep him warm...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi 
well, this is an adult, I think, because his wattles are white. Plus he's big, and shiney/irridescent. he's gorgeous, actually. I don't think he's got any disease or infection, but he really is still very weak. He literally hardly moves from one hour to the next. His eyes are bright though, and he watches everything. 

The seeds and nuts I got are from the organic store... not the nasty packaged stuff. It's all fresh (the bird consented to share, so I checked). I did go to the pet store but all they had was this ridiculous parrot food in 15-lb bags. Maybe on the weekend I can get over to Petco and get the wild birdseed. 

Thanks again! I'll update again soon.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Petco may also carry a Dove/Paloma mix that Cindy (azwhitefeather) and I feed our birds. You might try that. Also, many birds LOVE white Safflower seeds...

Hope all goes well!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia, 


Well, today seems to be the day for mentioning ACV-Water for Pigeons...

So, what this is, is 'raw', Apple Cider Vinegar...one and one half Tablespoons of it added to one Gallon of Water, and one uses this for their drinking Water.

It is generally benificial to them, plus, it helps eliminate a wide range of undesireable bacteria and yeasts and so on from their system...or to re-establish a more ideal balance of various flora and fauna in their digestive system.

From your descriptions so far, I would consider to provide this for him for his drinking Water, just as I often do for Birds I am careing for.

If he is interested in pecking Seeds when you get some, consider also, initially, to let him have about thee Tablespoons of Seeds in some little dish or small bowl that is easy for him to peck in...and, see how that goes.

If he eats all of it, and fast, then some hours later, replenish them for him...but at any rate, sometimes a Pigeon who for whatever reason has been not feeling well, when his appetite returns, he can overeat and relly fill his Crop to where when the Seeds hydrate, his Crop really swells and gets very firm and stretched, and his caregiver paces and worries thinking it shall burst.


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks for the input. I’ll get the apple vinegar today at the health food store, they carry the “whole” kind (unfiltered). 
Ok, next question. 
I think the bird completely lost the layer of skin that bears the feathers on the top of his head. I don’t like to poke too much, but it looks like there is an edge of feather-bearing skin around the bald spot. The bald spot has NO feathers. It’s totally smooth, I can’t even see where feathers would attach.

I am thinking maybe I should put neosporin or some other healing agent around the edge of the bald spot, and over it, to keep it moisturized and help it heal? There is a little dried blood and stuff around the edge. It’s very hard to tell because the feathers that are there sortof cover the edge of the bald spot, and I don’t want to hurt the bird when I’m looking at it. 

As for the bird… he is not eating enough, in my opinion. He still prefers bread to the seeds and grains I’ve given him, although he does poke at that stuff. He just sits, he’s obviously feeling pretty crappy. 

thanks!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, let's think about that head wound for a bit. Let me ask you a question--does the bald area seem hard or is it soft and puffy? The skin on top of the head is quite thin and they occasionally take an impact in such a way as to expose the skull. I've sewn up a few of those and it can be pretty simple depending on the location and time open. The skull is very little different in color from the skin.

On the other hand, there are sometimes conditions of infection or inflammation that can cause the feathers to stop growing on the face in various ways. A disease called Trichomoniasis (commonly called "canker") can occasionally invade the sinuses and cause some weird stuff to happen. I'd like for you to explain the nature of the facial/head anomalies in the most detailed description that you can manage. I'm also going to go looking for a past post that had some anomalous baldness that's like what I'm trying to describe with the disease.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, here is a picture of a pigeon (that later died) that has some of the strange baldness that means something bad. Anyhow, you can see the texture of the skin (which isn't swollen, by the way) and what it should basically look like if there's only the loss of feathers. Of course, if it's swollen, then you should easily be able to press into it like a waterbed. Please get back with us to confirm which case we're dealing with so we can figure out which way you need to go. It's a bad day and time to try and find a vet to look at it.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=81687&postcount=31

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi
well, I've looked closely, and to my horror, my initial assessment has proved to be correct. It's not skin, it's the skull itself that I'm seeing. He really got sliced into. And the way the skin slid off the head, it sortof bunched up over the right eye. 

NOW what. If this were a fresh wound, there might be a way to put the skin back in place, but it looks like it's sortof sealed to the skull around the edges of the wound. It's a big spot of missing skin, too - the whole back/top of the head, really. 

Poor little guy.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

I trimmed the feathers around the headwound and it's clear to me that there is a big patch of skin that's actually missing, not just displaced. So, short of a skin graft, i don't think there's any way that it can be fixed. 

I think I need to have the pigeon put to sleep. I hate to say that, but i can't see that it has much of a future. Literally the entire back of its skull is exposed to the elements.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, looks like we've got some work to do--it's not as bad as you might think, but it's going to take some learning, some work and some time. Older wounds heal differently than fresh wounds. We're going to have to get that skin back in place and so you need to go read another couple of threads to get an idea of how it's probably going to work:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

and this one describes somewhat of the same injury as you're dealing with only the pictures don't work anymore:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12191

There might be other things wrong with the little fellow and you're going to have to start getting more food down him, too.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, that's probably not the problem that you're thinking it is. There's a way to take care of it that's a lot easier than you're thinking if you're willing to give it a try.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi
I'll send my phone number to your email address, could you call me? 
I can call you back so you don't have the long distance charges. 
thanks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you take a ruler or measuring tape and give us an exact idea of the dimensions of the wound as well as the placement with respect to the ears and eyes?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

PM me with your number.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Looking at the pictures of the skeleton from the link you sent before, the headwound that is missing skin is basically over the entire parietal and frontal regions on the right side and a bit of the left side, and some of the squamosal region. On the right side, you can see the edge of the sclerotic ring.

In the long direction, the patch of skull is over an inch long; it’s about ¾ of an inch across.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, folks,

We talked over this thing and it's likely that he got hit in such a way as to knock a patch of skin off. Challenging. Not fatal, but certainly challenging. Gotta' get ready for the opera--Ariadne auf Naxos.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,


Well, so far, so good then...

Pidgey will walk you through of course, with all of this..

Pidgey, please over-ride if I accidently get out of step here or in the way...!

But, I'd like just to mention and to ask -

For now, that you could consider to keep the exposed Skull area moist with 'Neosporin' ( as I think you may already be doing...) and, to also describe for us what the Bird's poops are looking like presently?

Too, remind me please, does this Bird have 'White' Wattles? The fleshy soft gentle protuberant areas where his Beak meets his forehead? Or, is that little area pinkish and non-descript?

Eyes are 'dark' Or...?

Any 'yellow' hairs on the ends of his Feathers?


Similar injuries to what you describe have occurred with other Pigeons whose situation was brought to our List here, and they recovered nicely and did well.

So, don't dispair...!

Just... roll your sleeves up, and...get ready for the ride...!

There will be various things to discuss, and, for you to do...


Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok. I did it. I actually stitched up the bird. And you were right, the skin wasn't missing, it stretched out to cover the skull just fine. I used nylon thread and put in about 12 stitches. Unbelievably, the bird was good as gold, hardly squirmed at all. 

However, there was some exposed muscle tissue at the base of the neck that looked dried out, and I am worried that covering it with the skin may make it go necrotic. Plus, I don't know how good the blood supply in the stretched skin is. I guess he should have some antibiotics, but I don't know how I'll get those,short of taking him to a vet, which could be tough. Any suggestions? 

thanks for your help today. I felt a lot better at least trying to fix the problem than giving up on the bird. Tomorrow: campaign to get him to EAT.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,


My own experience suggests it wise, and sufficient also, to keep such an areas moistened with 'Neosporin'...

Some of the skin may be able to sustain enough blood flow to differentially 'live' and, some of it may not. Some thin layers of muscle may dessicate and or be reabsorbed, or, may go necrotic in some manner, possibly some benign manner. Pidgey will know better than I on that, or on debridement procedurals if such seem well advised or necessary.

What does not 'live' at any rate, skin and top of the head thin-flesh wise, will dry and shrink a little, and may crack in places revealing slender views of the skull through the cracks, and, the Neosporin will allow for a rather 'leathery' and less shrinking and less 'dry' scab to form, to whatever degree parts of this area will cease to live, while, supporting whatever of it does live and and grow while warding off germs.



My own similar cases had had topical antibiotics only,( ie 'Neosporin', ) and, unless there was reason to suspect infection systemically or having occurred from the inury site to be effecting his his internal organs, I myself tend not to use antibiotics...and I have had no problems or disappointments.


Too, in my experience, with head injuries to the scalp, such as became scab or dead, I merely left be and did not fiddle with in any way, but instead, I merely kept all moist with Neosporin, and the Bird's own cellular integrity, as it re-established itself, merely moved the non-living parts 'out' and grew in beneath them with no problems.

Too...

Your Bird may have been fighting some on-going illness already, when injured.


If you can describe the poops for us, this may offer clues...

Anyway, really good nutrition will pay off nicely now...good wholesome Seeds, Greens, suppliments, augmented with other things we can go into soon...I know I am 'preaching to the Choir' here on that, but...Lol...

As you know, his own immune system of course is the very best manager of matters like this, and, we do not want it compromised with the presence of any illness on-going from before his accident ( if there is any evidence of such, and or if it will need to be treated as a seperate consideration)...and, we would want his immune system health and general resources to be encouraged and able to devote themselves fully to making new muscle and skin and capillaries and so on for his head and upper back of his neck...


Nice going...!

I forget, do you have some medical background?


Can you fid a way to post some images?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Artemisia~ I just today read your post, and I must commend you on what you have done. This pigeon that came into your life is truly a lucky being, and the corrective action you took with Pidgeys wise guidence is truly great!

Pidgey, you should be dubbed, "Pidgey the Angel".


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Pidgey, Phil, et al
again, thanks for your help. Esp after talking with Pidgey, I saw things in a different way. I have cared for a few injured animals in my day, and there’s nothing I hate more than making the decision to end the suffering – esp when the animal itself is being so game about everything. This bird truly amazed me the way it tolerated my cleaning the head area, and then stretching the skin, etc. It only flinched a couple times when I was stitching it (I broke two small needles before I started, trying to bend them into a curve – finally ended up with one that was bigger than I would have liked).

Anyway, it’s SUCH a good feeling to see that horrible patch of skull, which looked so wrong and scary, is covered up. Plus his face is back in proportion now that the skin is no longer bunched up over the eye. 

I’ll use betadine and neosporin for now and hopefully that will keep everything on the right track. 

Bird seems healthy to me, other than being awfully thin. His feathers are sleek and dark and shiny. His eyes (golden) are bright. He nips and strikes me with his good wing when my hand comes too near. 

No, no medical background – my hands were shaking so hard when I started the stitching, I almost couldn’t do it. I put in 12 and tied each one off individually. Getting them out could be fun, they’re probably tighter than they should be. 

What kind of greens? I gave him a few broccoli florets the other night and I think he liked that. What else? He’s still only really enthusiastic about bread, I hold out as long as I can just giving him the seeds, peas, etc, but then I always cave in eventually and give him bread, which he scarfs down. 

thanks again.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Oh, forgot to say - poops are still green but not as intense a green as before - they are runny and white-ish on the outside, green in the middle. 

I can't believe i'm actually posting on the internet about pigeon **** at 11:30 on a Saturday night.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia...!


I am very proud of you!


Yes, discussing 'poops' is important and must be done...! Lol...

(True though! on both counts!)


Well...hmmmmm...it sounds like m-a-y-b-e, he was having some problems before his injury...they can go quite a few days if need be and not lose much weight, so...

He might have 'Worms'...'Coccidiosis'...or have been injured in one event, only to starve somewhat and be injured in a second event, with his scalp being torn almost off...


If you can find an experienced Avian Vet somewhere in your area, and arrange for them to do a fecal analysis where you bring the fecal ('poop' as I call it) sample...this would be worth doing to see if anyting turns up there.


'Greens'...

Brocollli I do not think is a good one but the little Leaves of it should be...

Kales, Chards, Cilantro, Endive are good...but not all Pigeons will eat them without seeing other Pigeons eating them first...

Also, the thin, dried, matted Sea Weed that Oriental Markets sell for like 99 cents and is a sort of flat round shape about 8 inches across...I have found my ( feral and Wild doves and Pigeons convelscing or growing up toward their release, ) Birds to like very much, and I just shred it up in my fingers and scatter it for them or add it to their Seeds.

Glad to hear you are getting those Wing-Chops and occasional pecks...this means he is actually quite comfortable with you, to be annoyed BY you...Lol...so, this is very good, it shows he is not intimidated or afraid of you and is accepting you as a peer of sorts who he expects to respect him.

Now, have you tried him on regular 'Wild Bird Seed Mix'..?

And or is there anywhere near you ( Feed Stores, Farm stores, Petsmart or better ) who may carry actual Pigeon Mix Seeds?

I believe the stitches will migrate 'out' with no need for special attentions as it all heals up there...or, may be snipped and removed at a much later date.

I myself would not use Betadine any more on this, as I have reason to suspect it can burn or discourage tender tissues...where, the Neosporin will not...


Most ferals ( or any Pigeon for that matter, ) will not tend to eat unaccustomed foods, which of course you already mentioned respecting yours as a conjecture...so...maybe he grew up where people fed them bread all the time and is somewhat new to Seeds.

This might in itself account for poor health and a 'thin' weight and lack of robustness.

Bread does not have enough nutrition to sustain them very well, compared to Seeds...so...maybe, if nothing else seems to work..slowly taper off on the Bread, while slowly upping the Seeds there for him...and, hope for the best!

Maybe you could 'borrow' a Pigeon from someone to have near this one, to in effect mentor him on how nice eating Seeds is...

When they see another one doing something, they will emulate it far faster than all our 'finger-pecking' examples and our saying "Mmmmm! Now these are some good Seeds here! Mmmmm!" and so on...

Lol...


Till next...

Good going!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia, you've done very well, think my hands would have been shaking as well. As mentioned, wing slaps and pecks are usually a good sign in a bird that hasn't been feeling well, so many members look forward to this behavior as a good indication that a bird is on the road to recovery.

Eventually the pigeon will get used to a healthier diet, just the lifestyle of the feral that causes it to enjoy the junk food diet that it is accustomed to. Of course if you can use a health food bread while trying to get it weaned of the 
'bread jones', that might be a good compromise, lol.

You can use the Betadine in a solution of 9 parts water and 1 part Betadine for cleaning, this on the advice of super moderator TAWhatley. I'd keep a close eye on the problem areas you mentioned earlier to make sure that no further problems arise there that may require debridement.

Pigeons also enjoy fresh lettuce and grated or chopped carrots as a treat, you could try this and see how it goes, although, if unappreciated, I'd go with what is successful after all this little one has been through.

Again, some really amazing work you've pulled off here, my hat is off to you.

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Wow!

I can hardly believe what I just read and how much I missed. My hat is off to you Artemesia, Pidgey and Phil for all you have done and all the good advice given. That's what this site is all about. Seems anywhere else a situation like this would just call for euthanization, end of story. But not here and I am amazed at how willing you were to tackle this difficult situation without a vet to help. Sometimes it seems you just have to close your eyes, think hard for a moment and then go to work and do the task no matter how hard it seems at first. I am so impressed with what you have done Artemesia and so thankful we have a guys like Pidgey and Phil here to help and encourage others to do the good work that needs to be done. 

You guys are amazing!

Cameron


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Update for the day.
Pigeon is doing well. I figured out that he likes stuff chopped really small. I’ve still not gotten to the pet store (car issues) but am feeding him a mix of finely ground raw almonds, raw sunflower seed, raw pumpkin seed, frozen peas, raw brown rice, and raw quinoa (like millet, but higher protein). And mixed a few breadcrumbs in there but so far this morning have not given any regular bread. I’ll try some lettuce and carrot later.

I’ve not added the ACV to the water yet because I still feel he is not eating/drinking enough and I don’t want to do anything that will queer the deal. 

The stitched up wound on the head looks ok, not inflamed, particularly. I am keeping it well-covered with neosporin. The wing still looks draggy.

He still just mostly sits, but occasionally jumps out of his box into the other part of the bathtub and pecks around. But I think either he’s still feeling pretty low, or maybe he’s addled from the blow to the head. He sure doesn’t have much of a short-term memory… every time I put my hand near him he gets really snarky, pecking at me and wing-striking like it's the first time he's seen me. But we did have a little scratching session this morning.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that sounds like it's going better now! Artemisia, I'm so happy that you took a stab at it! As to the drying out of the exposed surface of the neck muscles, that may or may not require later reopening and debridement, can't tell. You will basically know by way of IF the sutured edges close or not. That is, if they stubbornly maintain their separate boundaries and appear more like a couple of flaps that are laced together, then eventually you'll have to open them and debride again. 

It's probably not going to take anywhere near the effort that Pierpont did, we can hope. It's not a mortality issue, only a nuisance. Avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue, but they have other ways of dealing with such things and only time will tell. In any case, the wound should seal over the skull itself as there shouldn't be the same problem there.

You took a big step. There's always a psychological barrier against 'invading a patient' even with something so simple as a needle. The shaking eventually goes away because it finally turns into an actual, tedious JOB.

Thanks,

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, his memory is probably better than you think--the wing slapping is territorial so he's remembering quite well that THE BATHTUB IS HIS!!!

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jumping out of the box and wing slapping again, would be some good indicators, Artemisia. Sometimes they seem to stay at a certain rate of recovery for a bit and then it's leaps and bounds. The acidic content of the raw ACV in the water for the purpose of inhibiting growth of Coccidiosis, Trichomoniasis, bad bacteria
can be as low as one tablespoon per gallon to do the trick, just enough to create a slightly acidic 'deterrent' environment. This according to Dr. Chalmers.
Don't think they seem to mind this or seem to notice that much.

Garlic capsules, probiotic capsules pushed to the back of the throat enabling them to do the swallowing on their own are also helpful aids in establishing/maintaining good health. They can be wetted w/water to help go down easier. With the crisis mode, you probably haven't had much free time to take a look at the resource section, but there is alot of great information there to avail oneself of. Trees Gray has many good Stickies on natural healing and nutrition.

All in all, good news for your little patient. Thanks again for all you have done for this little one.

fp


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## EdMurray (Jan 28, 2006)

Artemisia, you are a star!
Thank you so much for looking out for this injured little fellow.
I wish you and your pigeon all the very best.
Wow, what a great rescue!
Ed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,



Outstanding...!



Food Wise...well, you need to resolve your Car issue so you can get ooooot-'n'-aboooot again of course, but...

Plain old fashioned just as it comes form the cellophane bag, un-popped, 'Pop Corn' is very good for them and so are Oat Groats or other whole small to medium sized Grains that you can maybe get at a Health Food Store or co-op or something...pending, or in addition to, some real, honest to goodness 'Pigeon Mix' Seeds...


Now, too, some Farm Stores and Feed stores 'deliver'. In fact, the ONLY Feed Store in these parts and the only place here that carries real, nice, actual, 'Pigeon Mix' does deliver, and I just call them and order a few bags and have them deliver it to me to save me the long drive out to where they are...I figure it helps their deliver guys 'college fund' too, since I am a good tipper. They deliver after close of business hours, and that is fine with me.


But anyway, I would do the raw ACV-Water I think if in your situation...even if just at the one-tbsp-to-the-gallon, or one and a half...


And, once I got some Seeds, ( even the Canary or Finch seeds and 'Wild Bird' Seeds they usually sell in grocery stores, or a home made mix of all three, but...BUT chew samples of them first to see if they taste good and are 'chewy'...if not, do not use them) , and...

I would lightly 'glisten' them in some Olive Oil from a new, fresh bottle...this also allows powdered things to stick to the Seeds, such as powdered Vitamines-Minerals suppliments ( 'Nekton-T' is what I use, get it on the internet) ...powdered Chlorella ( again, a healthfoodstore item...) powdered Purple dulce ( ditto )...powdered 'Pro-Biotics'...(ditto) and even, if you like, just for a while, powdered Digestive Enzymes ( ditto ) ...

And, just make a batch of 'Oil-powder-Seeds' a couple times a week, refridgerating in a covered container whatever is not used initially for his Bowl.

'Goji Berries' also, cut them into smaller chunks with Scizzors and see if he will eat them...if he does not, you can always soak them an hour or two and pop them into his Beak so he swallows them...20-a-day of these is fine...but need not be all at once of course...

Thin, dried, Matted Sea Weed ( Oriental Markets ) shredded into Beak Sized bites...( mine all love it, and mine are wilds and ferals, here only for they get-well stays...except for a few non-releaseables that is...)


Anyway, this kinda menu should get his system and appetite fired up...

Too, fairly fresh ( ie, not dried out and old) Anise and or Fennel seeds, lightly crushed in one's rolled palms, sprinkled on top of his Seeds might also perk up the otherwise wan or languid appetite...

So too if ( Lol...) you can borrow a Pigeon from someone or somewhere for yours to see eating and pecking...that can be a help too, especially for them trying what to them, are maybe new foods...


Too, if you can have them 'up' somewhere, so they can see around them, or see out a window...this is good...

Maybe hit some thrift stores and find a cage or pen or something so he can be safely constrained and be 'up' somewhere...this can be a moralle booster for them, they like to know and see what is going on around them...

Best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

*sigh*. Next chapter in the saga of my bird. His wing. 

I tried binding it to his body twice now, and it just hasn’t worked. plus, I think my handling him, and his struggling with the binding, has made the injury worse. There is a LARGE swollen lump under the right wing, just at the front where it attatches to the body, and a lump that is sticking out on top of the wing in the same location. It droops (worse now) and won’t lie smoothly against his body like the other wing. 

I feel terrible because I think I’ve made it worse by trying to fix it. I don’t think there’s anything more I can do about it, other than take him to an avian vet. He HATES being bound up – I tried the stretchy tape, different widths, different wraps – even masking tape – nothing works. And it hurts him, I can tell.

Re the seeds, etc – I can get birdfood at the supermarket, was just hoping for something better. But I had figured I could buy all the stuff in it, plus more, at the health food market (except thistle seed, and I don’t know how he’ll feel about that). 

Probably he’d eat more if he weren’t in pain. 

Head-wise, looks ok. It’s somewhat inflammed over the neck area, as I was worried about, but we’ll see. It’s starting to seal up already though.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's hard to say about the wing. I've got a few that have hurt themselves in that region (humerus, clavicle and coracoid) and don't fly anymore but they're happy with life in the loft. 

There is also the possibility of what's called "Paratyphoid" or Salmonellosis that can cause boils to appear in certain wing joints, that being one of the less common varieties. It's literally an enterobacteria that's gotten out of the intestines, into the bloodstream and can end up in a place like that.

If that's the case, we're going to need to get you some Baytril (Enrofloxacin) to give him for a month or so. There is one thing that you can do for right now, though. If you've got REAL aspirin (no formulation with Tylenol, Ibuprofen, Caffeine or any other analgesic) you can give him a flake the size and thickness of the head of a normal sewing pin. That can help with the pain, swelling and inflammation to some extent.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, there's another possibility on that "LARGE" lump--it could be a hole in an air sac that has let air from the respiratory system leak out under the skin and literally blow it up like a balloon. Do those lumps feel like they're pressurized with air?

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Artemesia,

If you are trying to make up a batch of seed custom style and tasty for your bird you could try what I do. I go to the big supermarket in town and in the bulk food isle, where all the nuts and seeds and grains are in bins you just select the ones you like for a good healthy mix. Just keep in mind the little seeds are better because pigeons swallow seeds whole and don't crack them open or split nuts like other birds do. Their beak is not a nut-cracking beak.
I guess it will all depend on your town and how big it is and what kind of selection is offered in the bulk-food section.

Hope this helps (PS: Pigeon/Dove mix is still the best but not everyone has it. I found it a pain to get a supplier so do phone around first. It's a bit more expensive than wild seed but there is a lot less waste so it balances out and your bird will love you for it.)

Cameron


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi
thanks. 
Are there other symptoms of paratyphoid I could look for? 
I suspect it's just an injury - there are feathers missing (total bald spot) on the front of that wing. But it is an awfully big lump under there. It must hurt like hell. i'll find some asperin.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

the lumps are firm. But the one under the wing is a lot bigger (quarter sized, and thick). The one on the top of the wing is more like a little knob sticking out. I was trying to think whether his wing could have become dislocated or something? couldn't tell from the skeleton pictures what that area really looks like. Plus, I think I'm at the end of my vet skills... I am scared messing with this wing because i think it's my fault it's gotten worse in the first place. 

couldn't find my asperin. will buy tomorrow.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

For the type of aspirin that you're looking for, it usually comes in a 5-Grain or 325 milligram size. You can cut them up with a very sharp knife but they like to rocket around the room if you're not careful.

Here's a thread about ruptured air sacs and a picture of one on a chick that Phil had:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11504

http://community.webshots.com/photo/415428974/1415431449067835264egWETm

Paratyphoid makes liquid-filled, pressurized blister-like bubbles commonly called "wing boils." They're usually not as pressurized as the ruptured air-sac bubbles. In that presentation, you can't count on other symptoms.

To keep the wing from dragging, you could just tape the longest flight feathers to the tail with a single loop of tape. That won't interfere with his walking--it'll just keep the wing from drooping.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, it's time to go to bed for the night since tomorrow's the new work-week. He'll probably be okay for the evening.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> the lumps are firm. But the one under the wing is a lot bigger (quarter sized, and thick). The one on the top of the wing is more like a little knob sticking out. I was trying to think whether his wing could have become dislocated or something? couldn't tell from the skeleton pictures what that area really looks like. Plus, I think I'm at the end of my vet skills... I am scared messing with this wing because i think it's my fault it's gotten worse in the first place.
> 
> couldn't find my asperin. will buy tomorrow.


Artemisia,

Please be careful with the aspirin, you won't help the bird by giving a larger dose than described, in fact the opposite. Just wanted to underscore this just in case. Here are a few different sites you can go for sysmptoms and diagnosis if you like:


http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/diagnosis.htm#Salmonellosis (paratyphoid)

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

Hope this helps. Is the bird stiff legged or balance impaired other than when you try to bind the wing?

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Artemesia,

I did use aspirin for my bird as Pidgey suggested and noticed a change in her demeanor within hours. So it was clear to me at that time that she was in some sort of pain or had an inflammation that the aspirin took effect upon. 

I haven't backtracked on this thread to read Pidgeys previous comments about aspirin but I think it is important to note that the dose of a pin-head size be adhered to. It is all too easy to think that amount is too small and will be of no value but I did my own calcs for weight etc and it is about right. A pinhead size isn't that scientific of a measurement but it sure gives you a good idea that the amount should be small. 

Once you chip off a piece you can attempt to feed it directly by mouth or as I did, mixed in suspension and tube-fed directly into the crop. In my own case I later ended up using Prednisone as an anti-inflammatory but the aspirin idea was very helpfull in the short run to help me determine if an anti-inflammatory was in line.

Hopefully this will help you.

Cameron


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks, all, for the advice - and the warning. I'm often of the "if a little is good, more is better" school when it comes to my own medicating (I live on ibuprofen at times!) so it's good to have the warning reinforced. I'll pick up some baby asperin tomorrow and make a tiny piece.

I actually have some prednisone here - tablets for my cat, who has inflammatory bowel disease. Would it be worth trying that? Please advise. I do think the bird is in quite a lot of pain. 

thanks again, everyone.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You might need to crop administer the Prednisone, Artemisia. Check your PM. Until it is narrowed down as to the cause of the problem, maybe it's best to push a pinch of aspirin to the back of the throat and allow the bird to swallow it on its own at least for now?

The issue with the aspirin would be that it apparently in relatively small doses from a human point of view can cause death for a pigeon. The issue w/the prednisone is that if the problem bacterial based, this wouldn't be a good pain relief option, instead, better to treat w/the appropriate medication. So some sleuthing needs to happen to get to the core issue on the pigeon's wing. 

Do the lumps that you see appear to be fluid filled? Have you stretched out the wing to look it over for signs of injury/trauma? Any more info on the wing situation would be helpful.

And, once again, thank you for all you've done and continue to do for this pigeon in dire need of help.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia, Hi Pidgey...


Wow, good memory there Pidgey!


Hmmmm...I had forgot all about this Bird's Wing injury-or-issue...


Thing is too, when the Radius ( usually it seems in the one's I have had it is the Radius that) is broken clean acrross, the short end, or one end at any rate, can sometimes be poking at some angle to make what in effect is a lump...that, and or maybe there is blood making a bubble or also some swelling in the muscles there for all I know. But there can be a lump there anyway.

So, Artimisia...their Wing, the Bones of their Wing, is really just about the same as our Arm, and differs mostly in how their Hand has not bothered with growing the usual retinu of fingers for itself, even though they are understood to still posess a Thumb, and a few abbreviated Fingers...their Wrist is a little different than ours, and has fewer Carpels in it. You can see their Thumb easily when they are young, and it has it's own feathers growing from it there on the front area shy of the Wing's end...

But anyway, sometimes the broken clean across Bone end can make what feels like a lump when it is way out of alighn...

Their Elbows also are normally something of a little lump up next to their back.

So, the thing is, of course ( just to think aloud in overview...) that if there is a broken clean across Bone there, one needs to envision how the ends of that Bone might be brought to line up to eachother, with the Wing folded normally as when at rest, against their body, so that they will knit.

Since the muscles and tramua of injury conspire in such breaks to mis-align the ends, it follows that how one immobilize the Wing is critical.

A little flattish pad or wad, placed unnder their armpit, or placed under the area where the broken Bone will be against their Body, is something I have been brooding about which might help in positioning things better than when one merely have the Wing brought to bear there and bandaged...

Too, some kinds of Tape are a NIGHTMARE to get off later, and I will not use them...

The 'Vet Wrap' is one such nightmare in my limited experience with it, especially if it is wrapped onto itself.

'Micropore Tape' at 99 Cents-a-Roll at any Med-Supply minimall joint, seems to offer a lot of advantages for how it holds well, yet comes of nicely when one needs it to.

Ideally, if one is to bind or bandage a Broken Wing Bone, having some additional person there to help hold the Bird while one manage the Bandage would sure be nice I think...that, and covering the Bird's Head with some little cloth or a few inches of a child's cotton sock...this of course helps the Bird decide to fidget less.

If one has an additional person to help, it is likely a good idea to in fact bring the Wing out and wxtend it in it's normal 'open' position, to both examine visially, and, to feel for some indications of where the break is and what sort of break it is...

Too, broken Bones are associated with various Staff infections occuring, even in occasions of the skin having no perforations...so...either consider to have themon a course of Batryl or other appropriate antibiotic, or, be poised to do so at the first sign of them getting at all droopy or distant or withdrawn.

I hope this ramble helps a little...!


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Again Artemesia,

I am really supportive of the comments from fp about dosing with aspirin. There are a lot of problems in cutting the right dose and while I was lucky perhaps in getting it right I would think that there are better methods if you have the resources to buy them. Correct dosages are important. Mistakes, as fp mentioned could be fatal so do be carefull. More is not better by a long stretch. You are doing good work, keep it up and God Bless.

One more thing since I am now emending my post. You had asked about crushing up Prednisone tablets for the the bird. I am not in favour or doing this if you don't have access to the resources and the means to put the Prednisone into a correct colloid (suspension). The risk here is that you can end up dosing too high or too low from one day to the next. Best not to fool around. Anyway, the Prednisone given for birds in a liquid form (childrens formulation) is a very small amount and very inexpensive. I think I paid more for the dispensing fee than for the med itself. About 10 dollars Canadian. That's like 8.50 US or thereabouts

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,



Too, absolutely no 'ibuprofen' or any other common people pain relievers for Birds...

Anyway, I myself would not be concerned about their pain in the way which seems natural or intuitive for us to do empathetically...and, this because, I have seen many occasions of severe injuries with Pigeons and other Birds and I have come to understand that their own mental discipline and how they employ their intelligence and awareness in matters of pain, is far superior to ours, or, at least, they know how to use their intelligence better than we do for mediating their awareness in pain management.

They are like Yogis or something that way...

Anything which makes a body-load, be it illness or medications, is going to deminish their kidney and liver functions and burdon their system generally...which interferes with both nutrition and with healing which is trying to get going or keep going...so...while others I hope will also give their opinion, my opinion is that aside from Asprin, or Prednisone, I myself would not seek to adminster 'pain relievers' as such for a Bird's injurys. I believe they will do better, in many ways, without them.

I would be watchful for any signs of Staff infection however, since it is not uncommon for it to attand a broken Bone event in any species...

I have had many Pigeons with broken wings who to one degree or another, got well, flew again well, flew again only so-so, or did not fly again, who were not an any meds of any kiind at all during their convelescence.

But, sometimes, a Bird will get a staff infection or other infection and will benifit from the antibiotics of course.


Too, we do not know to what degree your Bird may have been dealing with various Health Issues before his inujurys occurred.

In fact, it probable to find that many Injured Birds were ill prior to injury, and the compromise from their illness was what occasioned the poor judgement or reflexes that allowed the injury to happen...

If this Wing has a broken radius or less likely, a broken Ulna, or least likely, a broken Humerus, then, of course, the break shoulld be set sometime soon so it may begin to knit.


Now, I forgot where you are, sorry..but, you could try calling various Vets in your area, and, talking either with them or with their receptionists, find out who they think does Birds and moreso, who does them well.

There might very well be a kindly and sympathetic Avian Vet of experience in your area, who would set this wing quite properly for free or for some small fee, and the only way to find out is to make some calls, maybe quite a few calls...but this might just be well worth doing.

Too, you are a fast study, and, the opportunity to see it done, or to assist and see it done while you hold the Bird, would be a good chance for you to have that important step in your now begun education in these things...


Likely, the Vet would on principle elect also to give the Bird an injection of Batryl or other against possible infection, and this is fine of course if they do...

Too, if you find such an Avian Vet, you could have a fecal analysis done ( you bring the freshest poops, say, a tablespoon full in a little baggie) to see if Coccidiosis, Chlamidia, Giardia or whoknowswhat shows up...because also, for him to get well nicely from his injuries, he best not be at the same time fighting illnesses which likely will be trying to gain on him and which will be robbing resources he needs to be applying to his Head and Wing...

So...

I say...

Go for it! - go for the gusto...!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Well Phil,

I think this is one situation where we are completely at odds and you know that is rare because I am surely one of your biggest fans. I have worked with a lot of animals and they are mostly domestic farm animals. Pain is something that most of them seem, at least on the surface, to take very well. This does not mean by a long shot that they don't hurt or that they cannot be enabled to recover faster without the intervention of pain medication. From my experience pain relief in animals is welcomed and accepted as much as it would be from a human subject. So yes, I would worry about their pain level and try to address it because I have seen with my own eyes how much of a difference it can make with livestock and their ultimate recovery. Also, the earlier discussion about aspirin and Prednisone related primarily to inflammation and not pain. Relief of inflammation is the key to all this discussion, not so much the localized pain itself. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,


Good mentions...


This is a worthy topic.

I worry that the load from pain relievers, on what are often already taxed kidneys and taxed systems in general, is not worth the gain we imagine to occur.

I have seen Birds with terrible injuries, manage themselves very well, and, in some cases, be eating and preening and be the picture of Grace, with 26 stitches for large Dog tooth punctures and tears, and another couple dozen punctures left be...and...what I mean is, with that, or with commutated Wing fractures I have set or had set...my feeling on this is that not only do they manage very well in many cases with no pain relievers being given, but, that I feel they in fact manage better without them, at least, in many cases....and have a better prognosis without them.

Too, it will depend on just what pain relievers are being considered...

While Anti-inflammitories can, or do in fact reduce pain in some situations, I was accidentally ambiguous in my above Post's mention, and your clearification is appreicated, to distinguish them from pain relievers per-se.

Birds are very economical beings in many ways. Most Animals of course are.

Too, their systems are more liable to be effected by a wide range of toxicities which other Animal kinds are tolerant of, or more tolerant of...so...at least some of this question, which for me I appreciate from my intuition and judgement and from talking with some Avian Vets to whom the idea was new ( ie, such as no anaesthetic for one thing, when possible, for surgeries or proceedures)...some of this question deserves to be looked at medically, practically, with respect to the effects on Birds, of whatever pain reliever medicine we might have in mind...

Vallium, just might be a good one for them...and, if so, then if it is not going to compromise their kidneys as itself, or with respect to whatever on-going conditions those kidneys already have for themselves, or are obliged to process owing to contusion, distal infections, disease or illness, then...we would do well to have this kind of onfo so that informed decisions can be made.


...please do not think I am callous or cavelier about the possible pain a Bird might be experienceing...

I first started thinking about some of this, when allmost every Bird I let go under Anasethesia for a proceedure, with a Vet, died...

While those I cared for by myself, did the proceedure myself or had it done by a Vet without letting them use anasethsia...lived...


But understand, that my belief, or acceptance, is that they 'can' manage their experience of pain very well, and given the uniqueness in some ways of their systems, I would rather err on what will least compromise their progniosis.

So, really, to frame my opinion more carefully - 


I would caution against useing pain relievers on Birds unless one has researched the possible relations of that particular medicine, with respect to the actual medical condition of the Bird in question, and, for one to be very particular to be accurite with the dosage if one does use a pain reliever of some kind.


Ibuprofin is toxic to them if memory serve...for example...and so should not be given...(even though this is not a pain reliever in the sense of a serious medicine for pain...it is one kind of medicine one might innocently give and unknowingly poison the Bird with...)


I gotta get back to work !


Lol...


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi all
I still can't tell if there's a break in the wing. But i think what happened is whatever blow caused the cut to the head (which turned out to be L-shaped, going from left to right across the base of the neck, then straight up the skull, somewhat to the right) also damaged the wing. There are a lot of feathers completely missing in the region where the wing attatches to the body (sortof had to pull aside the neck ruffles to see that) and more feathers missing just below the forward point of the wing. The big swelling beneath the wing still has feathers on it. 

I can't feel a particularly sharp end (-!) sticking out (god it hurts to think about it) at the top of the wing, so it's not clear whether it's broken there, or maybe just a very bad sprain. The wing hangs pretty slackly but he does move it. Maybe ripped ligaments?

Pidgey, I'd thought about taping the end of the wing to the tail feathers, and I wish I'd just done that in the first place. I did it last night and it helps to at least keep the wing in place (even if it's just hanging down). 

UNFORTUNATELY, i have to go to work so I can't do the asperin thing right now. Tonight I will. I'll hold out on the pred, it's a serious thing to invoke at this point. 

thanks all.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, it's time for the workweek (ugh!). Anyhow, I usually give the aspirin for inflammation, not pain. They can't tell you if they're in pain although I, too, have seen differences in behavior that would signal that they must have been in pain.

Where that would matter is when the bird is so overtaken by the pain that it begins to give up and becomes depressed to the point of not eating or drinking. They do that occasionally and giving aspirin for pain is okay there. There is a pain reliever that works well in birds called Metacam but you won't have that on your shelf--it's usually a script from a vet.

As to an antibiotic for the sutured wound, I would probably use Keflex, a Cephalosporin. My vet always gave me human capsules and instructions for putting them in the bird's water. I eventually strayed from that method and began to use an electronic milligram scale to divide the powder out according to the bird's weight as measured with a triple beam balance with a 1/10th gram resolution. That saves me from a lot of wasted medication.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> I'll pick up some baby asperin tomorrow and make a tiny piece.


Don't get "baby aspirin"! Ever since the discovery of Reye's Syndrome, they've switched to non-aspirin formulas, mostly based on Tylenol, I think. Real aspirin is the safest if you can't get Metacam from a vet.

Oh, by the way, on those swollen areas--it you can part the feathers and see the actual skin, it may turn blue and then blue-green. That's not gangrene, it's just the normal bruising discoloration for birds so don't amputate from the neck down if you see that.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok, thanks. No baby asperin. 
I have a call into my vet, hopefully he'll call back. He's not a bird vet, but he's a good guy, and hopefully he can offer some guidance. 

more later.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

See if he can prescribe a Keflex formula for the wound. There's a kind where there's a bubble-gum flavored powder that's mixed with water (if you see your bird chewing and blowing bubbles, you got it too thick!). You take a syringe and put a prescribed amount down the gullet. That suspension lasts about two weeks kept in the fridge and then you throw it away. Other Keflex's come in capsule form for humans and then it's a lot funner to divide the dose.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Inflamation itself can be painful, so by addressing the inflamation, it is likely to help with the pain as well. They can be very stoical, which is different than not being in pain or being able to handle it. It's more like it helps those around the injured bird to handle it better as they aren't fully aware of the burden of the injured bird.

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Oh Phil,

I never in a hundred years thought you were cavalier or uncaring. I just wanted to talk about my own experiences with anti-inflammatories and pain meds that were different from your perspective. I know what you mean too about anesthetics, surgery and resultant deaths. I had a dog some years ago that was dying of cancer. In the end we could not give her anything whatsoever for pain or imflammation because that in itself would have been life ending. Some decisions are just too hard to bear when it comes to the ones we love and I still think about that dog all the time. She was my baby. 

I think fp might be right on the money too that medications like these are really more for us sometimes than for our patients. It helps us to feel better as well as them.

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Often when a bird dies under a general anesthetic, it's because they aspirated crop contents on the way back up to consciousness. If the anesthetic used was Isoflurane (tradename: Forane) then there is no toxicity or burden on the organs. If the anesthetic used was an older stuff, then that's not necessarily the case. Some of them were capable of putting you under for good, especially seeing as how they had to be eliminated through the organs instead of just "breathed back out" like Forane. Of course, the anesthetist has to do a good job of maintaining an "anesthetic plane" that's just under consciousness. My vet likes to see them move a little in discomfort when he's doing things that should hurt.

As to oral analgesics, I use the aspirin because it's in the formulary, it works AND I can effectively manage a proper dose. A flake that small is pretty doggone tiny but it's never failed me yet. No, I wouldn't give it in a case of a wound that had been bleeding profusely, nor would I give it if I thought that there was significant internal bleeding. Those are 'contraindications'. Bruising, especially days after the injury, usually doesn't count.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi all
well, thanks for all the great input! I am generally in agreement about using the minimal interventions necessary for animals, espec something like a bird that is outside my experience. But... i did walk down to my vet at lunch, and he gave me Baytril, and Metacam. 

Now... advice on dosage for metacam? Because the vet pointed out that it is something like 1.5 mg/ml, which is a huge dose. i need to do a dilution series, I think. 

He also said, give 0.15 ml of Baytril, daily. 

Like I said. A good guy. Not an avian vet but was willing to help.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,


Now, what about 'Prednisone'...?

As an anti-inflamitory which as an incidental, would tend to reduce probable pain of injury...


Too, simple Cocaine Hydrochloride, as a local, injected correctly with respect to nerve centers and nerve layout...might be worth looking into, but, sadly, those BATF boys might not be amused...

Likely other 'local' Anaesthetics could be useful, and easier to get, for some situations or proceedures of course...

As for me, I doubt I shall more than Asprin or Prednisone, or m-a-y-b-e, Diazepam, for the forseeable future...

In fact, Pidgey, what value in these matters do you think Diazepam ( Vallium) might have for these Birds?

While it is not per-se a 'pain reliever', I imagine it's careful use would tend to lessen whatever level of pain was on-going for the Bird...as well as to benifit the general viscerotonic state particularly of their first few days of immediate post-injury/trauma treatments and observation-evaluation...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> Hi all
> well, thanks for all the great input! I am generally in agreement about using the minimal interventions necessary for animals, espec something like a bird that is outside my experience. But... i did walk down to my vet at lunch, and he gave me Baytril, and Metacam.
> 
> Now... advice on dosage for metacam? Because the vet pointed out that it is something like 1.5 mg/ml, which is a huge dose. i need to do a dilution series, I think.
> ...


Hi Artemisia,

I have no personal experience with Metacam, although there are members who do, and hopefully they'll check in and make recommendations to you.

Here's a link on it for you in the meantime:

http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html#Meloxicam

Is the Baytril in a liquid format, if so what %?

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, all...


When I had occasions of Pigeons dieing after being under a general anaesthetic, it was always later that day or evening, after a slow sorry downhill...


Never had one aspirate, or show signs of that...no coughing or gagging or breathing problems.


This even for injuries that were not life threatening in themselves, and where there were no signs of illness conspicuous enough to catch my eye...

The otherwise seemingly healthy car-wacked for example...all would die if a Vet did a general to do some things for their broken Wings and so on...or if I left them with a Vet ( which I will never do again and have not done now in years) ...where, almost never ( none I can recall ) had one die who was a car-whack when I just did my muddleing naive best with no general and no nothing sometimes but for my own improvised tape and splints and slings and hydrate and chow...

If they were alive when I got them anyway, the injured ones I mean, they tended to stay that way. Or with rare exception that came as no surprise when it did end up that way.

Illness ones I had doe on me because I did not know how to treat the illness. So, these were my fault, and not per-se beyond hope or remedy - I just did not have the know how or meds, or the right meds to help them.

I have had many die within minutes or a half hour where, because they were unconscious when I got them, and, beak breathing and so onand very badly hurt...and I did not get to really do much for them anyway or know what to do...I have had some like that, but, usually, they are conscious even if unable to stand and so on. With injurys maybe fresh and maybe days old by then.

Had one one time whose upper Beak was pokeing out through the center rearward area of his lower Beak...Vet did a light general, got the Beak matter dealt with with a haeomstat or clamp or whatever it was, and...I take the Pigeon home, dead by evening.

A few years later, I get another one, same thing...this time, I find a girl to help hold him for me, and, gently I managed to get his Beak matter resolved in about two minutes of fussing with it useing my finger tips and a thin piece of soft Wood or two...and yes, I know this hurt ! 

But, instantly, you could tell he was relieved, it was palpable and showed in his Eyes...and, within a few hours, he was doing slightly clumsy peckings ( he had been starving for who knows how long previously with that Beak like that)...and by bed time, he was trying to preen...this was in my pre-tube-feed days, so I made him some thin Soup and got him to drink it...next day, preening sort of, pecking with some success...and, in summation, just got better every day and ended up soon, being one glowing, robust, happy, filled-out, Big-Crop, back to his old self of 'Big-Boy!', making tuns of picture perfect poops, and doing his "Aroooo-Kuh-Roooo!" twirley-Bird-dance and pomp to the Hens...and, I so let him free to get back to whatever he left off from.

I believe this would have been the outcome of the first Beak-poke-through one also, because all in all, they were in the same boat - unable to eat with that Beak like that, starved, emaciated, grungy, weighing nothing, and sorry looking from who knows how long of no eat, no preen, no bath, and prolly not much for water...but not conspicuously ill. Both of these fellows were so light it was like holding crumpled 'paper' when you picked them up.


Granted, in theory, the 'right' Anaesthesia, administered within limits of approximate excellence and perfection of deference to the specific patient's particulars, might have been just fine...but the reality, probably, is that in most Avian emergency Cases, this will not be the actual deal, and the Bird will be compromised or toxified into renal failure or shock or other inimical effect, or be injured at any rate by the Anaesthetic, to make for a poor prognosis, where a good prognosis would have been highly probable with out it.

I know Pidgie, that you are familiar with all this...I am just elaborating to benifit the subject generally and to invite it being thought about by all...includeing me of course...!

Well, off to 'work' for me too!

( All ten feet away, it is! Right there in the next room...Lol...)


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Artemisia,
> 
> I have no personal experience with Metacam, although there are members who do, and hopefully they'll check in and make recommendations to you.
> 
> ...


Hi Artemisia,

First, let me say that my hat is off to you for the way you have gone above and beyond in helping this injured bird....Bravo.

I remembered our UK member Cynthia (Cyro) had mentioned using Metacam for pain in the past....here is what she had to say in a previous post from 2004...
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Go easy on the Metacam if you get hold of it. Helen says that the dose for an adult cat is 2 drops a day! My vet prescribes it at one drop a day for an adult pigeon but that sounds very high. It can cause irreversible damage to the liver, so I only give it when I can see from the bird's eyes that it is in pain and then only for a couple of days."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hopefully Cynthia herself will offer addtional information or advice on this, but I thought that her post was an important one, so I decided to copy and paste it here.

Good luck....
Linda


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Artemisia,

I would rather somebody with experience with Metacam give that dosage as well seeing as how I've never had any to use. And, as to the Baytril, Feralpigeon is right--the dosage must be based on the type of formulation (they come in several different percentages) as well as the protocol chosen. If it's given twice a day the dosage is less; if it's given once a day, it's more than the original 15 milligrams (of pure medicine)/kilogram (of pure bird), BID (twice daily).

Phil,

Prednisone is not specifically an anti-inflammatory. It's a corticosteroid that does other things. Sometimes it's indicated and sometimes it's contraindicated. One of the effects is that it causes the body not to try too hard to fix something broken (thus, the anti-inflammatory effect) but, I think, it's only good WHEN the body IS trying too hard to fix that broken something. There are negative effects that are well-documented. I'll put it to you this way: I do NOT feel comfortable prescribing that drug on my own counsel. I will probably always defer to a vet on that one although if, in my research on a given case, I find that the references indicate its use, I might implore the vet to try it but it would still be his/her decision.

Diazepam is not really a pain-reliever, it just knocks you on your **** dog so you don't care for awhile. But, while not caring about the pain, you also don't care about eating or drinking. If it's a really tiny dose, it may provide an anti-anxiety effect for a bird that's otherwise scared to death of the rehabber and the cage. As an anti-epileptic, it's usually given IV or IM to ease a grand mal seizure in the avian patient. There are contraindications so it's not for casual use either, I think.

Actually, Phil, what you oughta' do is read the section on Anesthesiology in that Avian Medicine book. That tells an awful lot and may contain more than your vet(s) know(s) about the procedure in the avian patient. I've had several birds under (Unie, Winter [twice], Pattie Cakers... to name a few) and have never lost any. But you gotta' face the fact that you didn't take the birds to the vet because they only needed a vitamin shot--a bird with enough blunt trauma to break a wing can always have the possibility of an internal injury. None of us is made of money and we rarely spring for a necropsy. And, since we're fact-facing here, we're rarely excited about doing one ourselves in such a case. Necropsies are usually reserved for instances of a string of unexplained deaths in a loft. Be that as it may, I don't think you should settle into a generalized attitude against utilizing general anesthetics (Forane, for instance, is not a burden on the organs)--just be more educated about the process and make sure your vet is as well.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

The formulary for metacam in the link provided is avian- 0.5 mg/kg PO or SQ SID . 

How much do you think an adult pigeon weighs? My guy is full-grown, but quite underweight. 

He's pint-sized, but not pint weight (pint's a pound, the world round)
I'm guessing under a pound - which would be maybe 0.4 kg...

there is 1.5 mg of meds in 1 ml of metacam, according to my vet. 

So, for a bird that weighed a full kg, I'd want 1/3 ml of metacam -
for bird that weighs half a kg, just 1/6 ml...
for a bird that's a bit less, I'm thinking 1/8 ml, to be safe...
which would be 0.125 ml on my 1-ml syringe. 

Please check my math!
going home now early to give meds, will check thread when I get home before I do anything.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

For me, most of the underweight but full grown ferals of normal dimensions have been in the 250 to 300 grams range. If the keel is horribly prominent (like a regular table knife blade that you can pinch and hold the bird by), then more in the 200 to 250 gram range. A smaller bird (nose to tail tip would dimension down from there as the cube of the fraction.

Anyhow, the easy way in this case would be to pick the lesser weight and start there. The formula would be: Dosage X Weight Fraction / Concentration per Unit Basis

Thus, for a 250 gram bird:

0.5 (milligrams dosage) x 0.250 (kilograms) / 1.5 (milligrams per milliliter of medicine) = 0.0833 milliliters.

for a 300 gram bird:

0.5 x 0.300 / 1.5 = 0.1 milliliters

for a 400 gram bird:

0.5 x 0.400 / 1.5 = 0.1333 milliliters

for a 500 gram bird:

0.5 x 0.500 / 1.5 = 0.1667 milliliters 

...which is one sixth so that verifies your math. Now, what you probably oughta' do is make a better stab at the weight.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Artemesia,

Not to question any math done by Poo (Mr. Pidgey the...), but here's a copy and paste text from another member who actually gave the dosage:

*Linda, I went back and checked my records for pain med prescribed by a vet. I found two: BUTORPHENOL 0.05 - 0.08 2-3 x day. This was for a baby that had a badly bruised rump, broken leg and other things going on and vet thought she was in pain; and MELOXICAM, given by mouth every 24 hours for 5 days, 0.015.
This was for Mr. Humphries who had multiple fractures, both legs.

Awhile back, a young dove I had happened to land on a burner that I had just cut off. I snatched him off and the bottom of his feet were pink. The vet said to put aloe vera on it. He was not on the burner long enough to do any major damage and recovered ok, without antibiotics.

maggie
Reply With Quote*

The Meloxicam is just another name for Metacam. Seems like this would be a good place to start. It sounds as though your rescue is a smaller bird in addition to being underweight. Something to consider.

Linda, it was a good idea to use our search engine, and I remember reading Cynthia say she used it as well as Reti, and I think possibly Cindy. I just couldn't get from that post the actual dosage breakdown  .

fp


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks, that's helpful. 
I don't have a scale... but I think you're right, between 200-250 grams is probably it. I will err on the low side, for sure. That really is about "one drop" of the stuff. And a small drop, at that.

Should be fun getting it down him. He hates me right now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,


What are the poops looking like these days?

...is his appetite good?

And, what is the outlook for possibly finding either an amenible Avian Vet or experienced rehabber to look at that Wing? and possibly doing a fecal analysis?

What seems like pain to a casual observer, can also be the effects of mild illness unrelated to ostensible trauma. But regardless, your Bird might be ill as a seperate issue in addition to his Head and Wing situations.


For now, too, you can simply tape the ends of their Primary Feathes together and let them be that way...which will gently bring the Wing up and immobilize it in an easy natural way.

This might be a bad sprain or cracked Bone that is not broken clean in two...

And, if so, merely taping the Primaries together so they are there on the small of his back or Tail, will be quite close to the best bandage set up in effect.

Oh, P.S.


Pidgey, yes, I got that wonderful BOOK and glanced through it some, then lost track of where it got put here...much had been getting moved and boxed on short notice when some rains were happenning, and put into storage..roof is not rain safe now, if it rains even a little it starts dribbleing in all over the place on everything...Roof is all torn off in 'permit limbo'...Commercial Buildings they are permit obsessed about, and I got nailed for no permit...so...I have been thinking of trying to find where I packed that Book so I can start looking up some things...but have not located it yet. Got a general contractor willing to walk the consulting engineer's drawings and letter through to get the permit, but that is a week or two away yet...anyway...

Lol...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> Should be fun getting it down him. He hates me right now.


Sounds like a good sign....

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

I wasn't supplying dosage information, I was extrapolating the concentration info that Artemisia's vet had already given for various weights. I found this page that verifies the concentration at 1.5 milligrams per milliliter and says that it's for dogs:

http://www.zenoaq.jp/html_e/sh01.html

So, it now remains to verify that dosage-per-weight basis (0.5 milligrams per kilogram of animal weight) for the avian patient which is what that link that Lin Hansen provided above does. The product of those two quantities then divide the Concentration-per-Unit basis to provide the Unit fraction to be used.

However, this webpage of Tufts gives a very different picture:

http://ocw.tufts.edu/courses/5/content/215771

...when it says that the dose for Meloxicam is 0.1 to 0.2 milligrams per kilogram for ALL birds in mild to moderate pain. That would reduce the numbers above by a factor of from 2.5 to 5 which is substantial.

And ya'll wonder why I use Aspirin!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Pidgey, yes, I got that wonderful BOOK and glanced through it some, then lost track of where it got put here...much had been getting moved and boxed on short notice when some rains were happenning, and put into storage..roof is not rain safe now, if it rains even a little it starts dribbleing in all over the place on everything...Roof is all torn off in 'permit limbo'...Commercial Buildings they are permit obsessed about, and I got nailed for no permit...so...I have been thinking of trying to find where I packed that Book so I can start looking up some things...but have not located it yet. Got a general contractor willing to walk the consulting engineer's drawings and letter through to get the permit, but that is a week or two away yet...anyway...


Phil--you work with your hands and your wits: Make a pedestal above the flood stage that's smaller than the book for it to sit on and then cover the book with an upside-down kitty litter pan, cake pan or whatever but KEEP... THE BOOK... HANDY!!! 

I shouldn't have to tell you these things, Phil.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hopefully what I gave is not too much. I gave 0.05 mls. THe bird is definitely pretty stoned right now. So much for getting him to eat dinner. THis pain alleviation thing is def a two-edged sword!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How stoned?

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Settled, not standing. Not moving around much, but then again, he never really does. 

He still strikes at me when my hand is near. Grumpy as usual.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Actually... if he HAS been in pain - and the stuff knocks him out so he can really sleep - that would probably be good for him (but only if there isn't problems with internal organs, obviously!!)

One time my cat had really bad dirrarhea to the point where his rectum was reversiing (sorry everyone, i know it's dinner hour). I made TWO emergency visits that night to TWO vets (it was a Saturday, naturally) because he (Apricot) would not stop "straining" even tho nothing more was coming out. I ARGUED with the second vet that what APricot really needed was a tranquelizer, as well as anti-dirrarheal agents, to just knock him out and get him to stop the compulsive intestinal spasms. Sure enough, after the shot, the cat went right to sleep, the straining stopped, and he woke up the next day all better.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess I've come to hate formularies for being so contradictory sometimes. And, if they've put the numbers in for a dilute formula instead of the actual medicine, it can really mess things up.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey the Poo said:


> FeistyPigeon,
> 
> I wasn't supplying dosage information, I was extrapolating the concentration info that Artemisia's vet had already given for various weights. I found this page that verifies the concentration at 1.5 milligrams per milliliter and says that it's for dogs:
> 
> ...


*Gosh, Poo, Got Diazepam?*

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> Thanks, that's helpful.
> I don't have a scale... but I think you're right, between 200-250 grams is probably it. I will err on the low side, for sure. That really is about "one drop" of the stuff. And a small drop, at that.
> 
> Should be fun getting it down him. He hates me right now.



I hope I am not adding to any conffusions here...but...


"Two Drops" I recall being mentioned as the dose, for a "Cat" for a 'day'...


I will review, but, a possible 180 - 250 gram Pigeon is maybe 1/25th or 1/30th or so of what a Cat weighs generally...so...one 'drop' on that basis is maybe 8 days worth at least, assumeing a similar tolerance, for a 250 gram Bird...and assumeing that the 250 gram Bird has a liver in good enough shape at the moment to abide it.


Let's please be double sure here with this stuff...!

And double sure on what the actual medicine's concentration is, with respect to prospective exttrapolated dose for the patient's weight...

And too, truely, compared to the need of this Wing to be evaluated and set if need be...and, for the possibility of pre-existing illness or disease to be evaluated...the pain issue, while interesting to people, and of theoretical import to the Bird, might just not be the best priority for this Bird's situation and future...or for whatever condition his Liver and Kidneys are in, with respect particularly to presently unknown and at least plauseable presence of pre-existing illness or disease process, independant of the recent physical trauma.

It will be of little avail, if for all this fussing about 'pain' that the Bird's appearent discomfort, were to be 95 percent from Coccidiosis, Chlamydia, Aspergillosis, or Worms...and for him to fade liesurely whilst we all are buisy projecting our emotions into the 'pain' issue from his recent trauma occasioned quite possibly from his pre-existing compromise having been effecting his stamina, reflexes, strength, and judgement in flight...so that the trauma incident had even occurred at all...

Please, do consider this...

I have seldom seen a Pigeon who from blunt trauma, seemed anywhere near as miserable, or even miserable at all, compared to probable e-coli, salmonella, candidiosis, trichomoniasis or other not identified illnesses in which they do look entirely miserable, while...

In the next cage, Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. 'Car Wacked', with one broken leg, one broken Wing, a broken or dislocated jaw, some stitches in their back, and one eye closed...looks, really, in their sling, over all, pretty damned 'good', is interested in the goings on around them, pecking their Seeds, pooping 'nice' text book exemplar of 'good' poops off the back of their sling, and, overall, if with a suggestion of 'delicacy' merely, is vivid and 'present'...and expressing a mood of 'Alls well with me!'...


While, poor Mr. Mrs. or Ms. 'sick' Pigeon...looks like 'hell' warmed over...or looks 'dim'...or forlorn and wilty...

So, while we of course assume 'pain' is whats afoot...it might not be what is making them look 'like' they are in pain...where, illness many times, does have them look quite less than palpably 'okay'...


Love,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Avian Pain and Analgesia By Dr. Larry Nemetz*

http://www.thebirdclinic.net/517449.html

Dr. Nemetz is one of the foremost avian vets in Southern California. I met him at the Lily Sanctuary Christmas party and found him to be quite an interesting man with lots of fascinating stories to tell. There is quite a bit of interesting and informative information on his website .. have at it!

Terry


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Pigeon is verrrrrrryyy sleeeeeeeepyyyyyy....
but still feisty when I get near. 
But, I don't think he ate hardly at all today. I wanted the pain meds because I thought that's why he wasn't eating (pain) but now WITH the pain meds, he's too dopey to eat. So I guess tomorrow, when he's more alert, I need to do something - Pidgey said something about "rolling peas down him" - can't quite imagine force-feeding, but, what are my options? He really needs to eat. 

signing off now. thanks for all the thoughtful discussion. It's good to know there are people like you all out there. Specially these days.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

final thought - he could be feeling wonky from the Baytril, too. Cause he had that tonight as well. I know antibiotics often make me feel icky.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, we'll see if he makes it through the night and what he's like in the morning. I really hate to see conflicting data on formularies by factors like those were. I think I'd go with the lesser numbers from now on although I think I'd give him a couple of days before I gave him any more.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Take thawed frozen peas and just place them at the back of the mouth .. one at a time .. peas are good as is soaked dog or cat kibble for birds that won't or can't eat on their own.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> Pigeon is verrrrrrryyy sleeeeeeeepyyyyyy....
> but still feisty when I get near.
> But, I don't think he ate hardly at all today. I wanted the pain meds because I thought that's why he wasn't eating (pain) but now WITH the pain meds, he's too dopey to eat. So I guess tomorrow, when he's more alert, I need to do something - Pidgey said something about "rolling peas down him" - can't quite imagine force-feeding, but, what are my options? He really needs to eat.
> 
> signing off now. thanks for all the thoughtful discussion. It's good to know there are people like you all out there. Specially these days.


Hi Artemesia,

Get a dish towel, pillow case, hand towel or the like and fold length wise, then with the bird centered on the fabric, wrap the ends over the shoulders to stabilize the wings and 'burrito' the bird with the remaining material. Now you can open the beak and place food to the rear of the mouth allowing the bird to do the swallowing. You can feel the crop to make sure that you do not overfill. If this pij hasn't been eating much, small amounts at a sitting would be the way to go.

fp

Think this is what Poo is referring to.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Think this is what Poo is referring to.


Referring to? Where?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,


Of course, there is not a great deal for us to go on here, being unable to examine the Bird ourselves, or to squint at his poos and so on for some pensive reflection...but...

My own intuition does not seem to feel that Batryl is likely what this Bird needs...and, I would doubt he has any infection in his system ariseing from his scalp tear/laceration, even if, at most, some intimation of impending local inflammation or very slight local infection might have seemed possible initially, or on principle, it would have been dealt with anyway quite well, with the topical antibiotics.

If he has a staff infection from a recently broken Bone, then...m-a-y-b-e this is some of what we are seeing with him...but...that kind of infection would usually tend to remain in the area of the break in the Bone itself, even as the Bone heals otherwise, and not likely to become systemic or spreading or coloniseing him elsewhere necessarily...


I would worry, and fast, about whatever was bothering him before his accident...which could be gaining on him with his additional compromikse from the injurys and not eating enough now for some time...or, as is implied ( to me anyway) in your descriptions of him since...and for his having seemed underweight at the beginning...and, I would make every effort to obtain a fecal examination/analysis a.s.a.p. and or in addition, to have the Bird themselves examined by some praticed eye.

The only blunt trauma Birds I have ever had who were not happy self-feeders and busy-peckers, were those with broken or dislocated Jaws, or, for a day or two maybe, at most, who were still woosey and sleepy from the kuh-whammo, but who by day "two" were eating just fine, if delicately even, and looking overall fairly bright and interested in things. MOst are bright and self feeding well within ours of their accident/incident/mishap, even with badly comutated fractures which had 'just' been pushed back 'in' and dabbed with some topical antibiotic powder and the wing then taped gently.

In occasions of where a blunt trauma Bird happens to have been already sick or ill...I have seen poor appetite, no appetite, withdrawl, listlessness, closed eyes and snuggle chins and pulled 'in' stances, or other signs of feeling poorly...and noted their not looking 'bright' at all.

So...

I do not think what you are seeing as either 'pain' or as post blunt trama and laceration modes of behavor or demur, are in fact substantially either...

I do think that what you are describing between the lines here and there, and confronting, is probably a sick Bird, whose illness is manifesting the outward tempremental or global signs you are interpreting or supposeing as ariseing from his accident related pain and contusion.


Too, if you have given him some 'pain medication'...will you please tell us what it was for-sure, and what the concentration of the medicine itself is, and what the dose was which you gave the Bird?


Too...

If the 'pain medication' is discouraging his appetite, and making him 'sleepy', he is far worse off than if feeling sore and tender and pecking decently and getting much needed normal sources of Nutrition into himself...and making lots of nice, happy little poops that tell you, and us all, that his system generally is dealing with things pretty allrighty.

Too, these tempremental changes that can be ascribed to the 'pain medication' could also be masking, or confuseing, symptoms which might be ariseing from illness.

Getting well takes lots of energy...this means, the more chow-time pecking, and full Crops, and poops pileing up, the better...as well as contributeing to a happier viscerotonic glow...


No eat, means no poop...and, I like to ask "How are the poops looking?" And I like prompt replies, too!

I hate having to wait days for some little not much of a poop to show up and be counted...!

(Lol..)


So, let's get this little Bird straightened out, so that when I ask, you can say, "Oh, well...uhhhhhhh, lets see, looks like...about 40, no 42 of them in the last day, and, all tight curley brown-green and white tops, about the size of large Raisens thereabouts...and...oh! 43 now!...and..."

You know...like that...


Would you like some of our resourceful members to see if they know any friendly Avian Vets in your area?

Getting the fecal analysis will go a long way to narrow down some of the possibilities...



Keep him warm...!

Smother him in kisses...!

Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegs


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

....another kindred method of gentle restraint for 'Seed-Pop' occasions...

http://community.webshots.com/album/457741615tdssUF


This litle Bird had a Babyhood Beak injury which eventually prevented him from being able to peck effectively...so, we just did 'Seed-Pops' four or five times a day...and he was a total ham and a charmer too...with his ( he really enjoyed Seed Pops!) being-fed times, and, with everything else...

I would not use 'Peanuts' however ( even though they are shown here as one supper ingredient, ) if I suspected possible digestive compromise or enteritus or Crop troubles or other than quite certain health generally.


If one click on the images individually, or on one to start, then go 'next' so they stay large, there are captions to the right side I think...which explain some details...


For this or other feeding-restraint methods, I hold the Bird between just behind my knees as I sit...this way, both hands are free, and the Bird is upright.


Same set-up for occasions of 'Tube-Feeds', in which it is particularly important not to inadvertantly press against their Crops, since, the Tube-feeds tend to be quite liquidy...( and the liquid could be forced 'up' and cause them to choke or aspirate some of it) where the Seed-Pops of course, are just medium to larger 'Seeds'...

The 'sock', or 'Sweater' as I call it, oweing to it's form, may offer some advantage over the 'Towell' with respect to Crop comfort and safety...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Referring to? Where?
> 
> Pidgey


Look over here, Poo....http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=112237&postcount=95

Took a leap of faith and figured you meant on the inside  

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh...when I hold them between just-behind-my-knees while I am sitting...

I just tuck the upright Pigeon's tail and small of their back there, between my almost to the knees part of my leg...and hold them that way...

It is comfortable for them, and, easy for me...

if the Bird is a 'wiggler' or foot presser, I might tape their legs 'back' against their Tail, and then, as if by m-a-g-i-c....no more of that 'Leg Pushing' stuff...!

Lol...

I forgot to show that in those images, and I forgot to mention it in detail above...so...


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok, Ok! the poops. They are still the same – greenish in the middle, white/clear on the outside… tho one this morning was back to the dark green. However, I did get a few peas down him last night. He is pooping less, because he is eating less, but I clean his box about three times a day so I’ve not been keeping count. 

This morning, he poked at his seed a little, but mostly just to find the little bit of bread I’d included with it. He’s about the same as he’s been – just sits and stares straight ahead – unless I put my hand down there. Then, look out. 

What other kinds of things, besides peas, can I get him to swallow? peas are nice cause they are soft. I was thinking about grinding his seed mix really fine, blending it with a teeny bit of oil, and making little balls. 

Vet was the one who chose Baytril – I showed him a printout of Pidgey’s message where he’d mentioned another antibiotic (can’t remember the name now) – but the vet said, only Baytril.

I’d wrapped the bird before when I sewed up his head – he’s very good, doesn’t struggle, generally, except if there’s too much pressure in that wing area.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, at least he's alive. I've been worried after that Metacam formulary difference. 

It's the roundness of the peas that makes them so much easier besides the size per unit. You can also use raw, unbuttered, unsalted popcorn. And, yes, holding the beak open and rolling them down was what I meant. If you've ever tried to fill a bird up by way of smaller seeds like wheat or milo, you'd know why I said "rolling peas down him". (yes, Feisty, that's what I meant)

I've had pigeons that have taken bad hits (probably cars) that haven't been real excited about moving around for a couple of weeks to a month. That worst one had a broken wing and leg on the same side though. He never flew again but he still lives happily up in the loft. He's been there a few years.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Just had to do more surgery on the bird. i discovered a big hole in the skin on his stomach, sortof near the wing. It had been covered with feathers before. All the skin was missing in an area about the size of a nickel, and there was some gangrene *under* the skin (the underlayer). I cut that bit out, cleaned the whole thing, flushed it with dilute betadine, and packed it with neosporin. Couldn't get a bandage to stay, though, so i left it open. 

maybe that was part of the reason he wasn't feeling good. But now I'm extra glad he's on antibiotics.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> Just had to do more surgery on the bird. i discovered a big hole in the skin on his stomach, sortof near the wing. It had been covered with feathers before. All the skin was missing in an area about the size of a nickel, and there was some gangrene *under* the skin (the underlayer). I cut that bit out, cleaned the whole thing, flushed it with dilute betadine, and packed it with neosporin. Couldn't get a bandage to stay, though, so i left it open.
> 
> maybe that was part of the reason he wasn't feeling good. But now I'm extra glad he's on antibiotics.


Aremesia, you are being so attentive to his needs, in a major way, this is really exceptional. Making the seed balls that you mentioned would be fine, in fact the International Dove Society has a recipe for making Pigeon Balls which I just tried to place here for you to look at, but for some odd reason, I can't get the page to load. As Terry mentioned, you can soak the puppy or cat kibble ( the small ones ) in water and push to the back of the throat, this method also aids in ensuring that the bird is getting both food and water.

Think that sometimes their bruising can be odd colored as in green, if you check Poo's webshot photos site, you will see an example of this in the picture-"Biliverdin" which shows "normal discoloration that occurs about three days after a traumatic injury". Although you are in the drivers seat there, so I don't want to second guess your observations, just want to make sure that you're aware of this.

The burrito thing is fine, it's not a tight wrap, just enough to help w/stabilizing the wings while trying to do things for the pij. My avian vet told me about it and called it "Bird Burrito" when he showed me how to crop medicate.

When there is that much open wound, I also feel more comfortable w/systemic as well as topical antibiotic treatment.....

About the poops, think that it's hard to keep track of them right now, so I'd just be aware of them as an indicator. Cleaning the cage 3 times a day is quite alot, although I'm sure you don't want the feces to contaminate open wound areas and are in a pre-emptive strike mode on that one. If his food and water are irregular, the poops will be too. 

Thanks again for all you've done for the little guy.

fp


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi, thanks - 
no, i can see the green bruising, but this was an open wound (no skin). at the edge, where the skin started again, there was a part where the bottom layer of the skin that lies next to the flesh was BLACK. No doubt about it, it was totally necrotic and nasty. I scraped at it because the skin on top was living, but ended up just taking a little extra chunk of skin out, all the way through, to excise the black stuff (since it wasnt' going to heal over lilke that for long). 

there is bruising all aound that area. Looked like road rash to me, like maybe he got dragged or something, by where it was (belly).


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> Hi, thanks -
> no, i can see the green bruising, but this was an open wound (no skin). at the edge, where the skin started again, there was a part where the bottom layer of the skin that lies next to the flesh was BLACK. No doubt about it, it was totally necrotic and nasty. I scraped at it because the skin on top was living, but ended up just taking a little extra chunk of skin out, all the way through, to excise the black stuff (since it wasnt' going to heal over lilke that for long).
> 
> there is bruising all aound that area. Looked like road rash to me, like maybe he got dragged or something, by where it was (belly).


The black discoloration doesn't sound good. Hopefully he'll be ok now. I'd just make sure that the area stays packed w/the ointment. Not great for the feathers, but that's the least of his problems right now.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, this poor bird! Keel wounds are kinda' tough--they don't heal as fast.

Here's a link to the picture referenced although the black crap sounds more like a skid burn (road rash):

http://community.webshots.com/photo/425651705/1425691662073664377hxQwGu

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

No, the black stuff was *under* skin that was otherwise living. It was just dead flesh. 

There is a scab that's still over part of that wound. 

I do think he's still addled from his head hit. He's most active right after I finish fooling with him and put him back down. Then he pecks around a bit. He doesn't mind being held, once i catch him. He's even good about being upside down.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

I've got it now. I put all the seeds and nuts and stuff in the coffee grinder, powdered it, then added water and oil and made little balls. NOW he's going to gain weight....


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> He doesn't mind being held, once i catch him. He's even good about being upside down.


Sounds like you have a natural acrobat on your hands. Pretty soon you will be posting as Artemesia and the flying circus! 

Anyway, I love what you are doing, all your work and making seed balls and all. I bet he will start to gain weight too. I have never tried this myself but am reading attentively so might try some oif those tonight.

Cameron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> I've got it now. I put all the seeds and nuts and stuff in the coffee grinder, powdered it, then added water and oil and made little balls. NOW he's going to gain weight....



Hi Artemisia, 

You've probably done this, so please don't take offense, but just wanted to say that the grinder has to be washed thoroughly to get the coffee residuals out as it is bad for the bird. Sounds like you have it under control, though, and it's good to hear that he seems to be being more active. That's a great sign. Sounds like a real sweetie.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How's he doing now, since it's been 24 hours...?

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

He's fine, Thank You. 
Other than that wound beneath - which turned out to be pretty nasty once i trimmed away the feathers. i can't believe i missed it before, it's big, and it went all the way through the skin. He was a trouper about me trimming out the bad bits, but i am worried i may not have gotten everything. Anyway, i'm glad he's on systemic antibiotics. I flushed out the stomach wound again tonight and put in more neosporin. 

I also gave him a meal of ground up seeds, etc, which seems to have done some good because he really fought like hell tonight when i went to pick him up. He's getting stronger for sure. I just gave him his Baytril (no painkiller tonight!) and will feed him again in a couple hours. How often do you feed yours, when you're doing the Pea-Rolling Routine?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's more of a percentage basis and done with a scale. You can do sessions where you fill the crop or you can figure about 10 to 15% of their weight of hydrated food three times a day when they're growing. They can get by on less than that as adults. When they're underweight (emaciated) it's trickier than if they're already full sized because you can cause crop-slowdown or crop stasis. That's a bad yoyo to get into so you try to avoid it. Anyhow, you try to weigh in at the same time and circumstance every day (after a fast and before feeding) to monitor the weight and adjust meals from that.

I'm glad to hear he's getting stronger. And if he's felt crappy and he's been fighting you, then he might get even worse as he gets better. That's a good thing, essentially, for a bird that's going to be released again. It's survival attitude.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Artemisia said:


> Ok, Ok! the poops. They are still the same – greenish in the middle, white/clear on the outside… tho one this morning was back to the dark green. However, I did get a few peas down him last night. He is pooping less, because he is eating less, but I clean his box about three times a day so I’ve not been keeping count.


 
Hi Artimisia, 

How 'many' poops in 24 hours?

And...this does sound like a sick Bird...to me...




> This morning, he poked at his seed a little, but mostly just to find the little bit of bread I’d included with it. He’s about the same as he’s been – just sits and stares straight ahead – unless I put my hand down there. Then, look out.



Well, that 'look out!' part is good to hear.


Too, they need to be "up" and able to see around them...it is bad for their moralle if 'in' a box or something where they can not be up high and seeing around them...

Get a shopping Cart even, put some cloth in the bottom, and improvise a cage out of it...even three feet up is better than being 'low'...




> What other kinds of things, besides peas, can I get him to swallow? peas are nice cause they are soft.




Oh no...!


The 'Peas' are supposed to be raw, dried whole Peas...not canned or frozen 'soft' ones...he will starve to death on that 'soft' stuff...

Plain dried Whole unbroken Grains...plain un-popped in the 99 cent plastic bag, old fashioned 'Pop Corn'...is excellent for them...they are dried whole Seed eaters primarily...and anything cooked or canned is not good... 




> I was thinking about grinding his seed mix really fine, blending it with a teeny bit of oil, and making little balls.



Sounds good to me, but 'easy' on the Oil...and if Oil, then use a fresh brand new Bottle of Olive Oil and not anything less or else...and in fact, use only a little Oil and mostly Water...to make the 'balls'...

But by then, you might just as well do 'Seed-Pops' for all the trouble of it...!





> Vet was the one who chose Baytril – I showed him a printout of Pidgey’s message where he’d mentioned another antibiotic (can’t remember the name now) – but the vet said, only Baytril.



Problem is, without a diagnosis, or a rationalle, it is hard to evaluate the situation in order to say what medicine should be used...

What was the Batryl for? To treat what? Was it for possible infection being expected from his lacerated-torn scalp?

( Continue of course to keep that whole area moist with 'Neosporin'...)

Did the Vet examine the Bird?

Did the Vet do a fecal analysis?

Is the Vet a practiced Avian Vet? Who is familiar with Pigeons?

Did the Vet form a prospective evaluation and diagnosis?

Not trying to be cute, or interrogating, or hard, but even as rhetorical questions, these are significant points... 


...but, in order to understand what they apprised, I would be wanting to know what they said, if possible. 

Your Bird might have 'Worms' of some kind, or might have some order of organisms in his digestive tract at any rate, which are making him ill...

Batryl will not be of any benifit for these, if he does have some or more than one of of these things...





> I’d wrapped the bird before when I sewed up his head – he’s very good, doesn’t struggle, generally, except if there’s too much pressure in that wing area.



This is because he is sick...and or weak from malnutrition, or both...

An even slightly wan or complaiscent feral Pigeon, is almost certainly, a sick Pigeon...

My own feeling on this presently is that you need to get food into him...at least say 2 fluid ounces or 4 Tablespoons of VOLUME, of Seeds into him a-day, over the course of the next day or two for now...and more after that if he is not pecking on his won to effect a like result...and make sure that the poops are getting made of course also...and count them for 12 hour periods by putting fresh paper towells or cloth towells down for him to be on so they are easy to count and see...

It is hard to say if he is 80 percent starving and 20 percent ill, or starving into illness which nutrition would let him fight off, or which would let him fight back into remission, or quite what...but, he needs to eat good, nutritious wholesome, whole, unbroken Seeds...or, to be fed them if need be for now...Seeds and Goji-Berrys even would be excellent...! - or, to be fed via a soft slender 'tube' a formula calculated to be appropriate for his species and present needs...

No more canned Peas...no canned or frozen or cooked anything...but, real, plain, wholesome, whole, raw, dried Seeds and Grains of the kinds which Pigeons eat...and for now, no 'nuts'...no 'peanuts'...

If he still shows some interest in pecking, then that is very good of course!

If he pecks or Wing slaps with his 'good' wing, that is very good of course...!

But...

Get the food thing happenning, for now, to the tune of about 60 millitres or 2 Fluid Ounces or 4 Tablespoons in Volume for the next 24 hours...or half that over the next 12 hours, and we will be better able to make guesses or conjectures from there...

And, see where your Vet ( or maybe better yet, an experienced Avian Vet if you can get a referal for one to contact, ) is at, for a fecal analysis which is deferential "to" Pigeon's common kinds of parasites/illness/infection identification...

He is hanging in there...but do please appreciate that I feel confident and concerned, that there is something amiss with him that it is not from his injury...and whatever it is, it will compromise the healng he heeds to be doing with respect to his recent injury, and, or, will threaten his Life itself, if whatever it is, gains on him.

Till next...!

Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Phil and all,

Thawed frozen peas and corn are OK to feed a compromised pigeon .. easier for them to digest than the hard grains. Granted, perhaps not the best thing when compared to a "normal" diet, but sometimes just getting any easy to digest nutrition in them is best. Soaked (in water) kitten or puppy kibble is the same .. an easy to find, use, and feed source of nutrition that's also easy for the bird to digest.

Terry


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Artemesia,

I just want to agree with the idea of no peanuts. They are sure easy to give when oiled, go down easy for the birds and fill them up quickly but mine developed terrible diahrea after two days of seed pops with peanuts. No idea why. 

My instincts tell me though that they may be too rich and fatty for easy and proper digestion in an ill bird. The other thing I wanted to mention is that after a good feed of seeds or (seed-pops) do watch the resulting fecal. You will know intuitively if it is too dry and this would suggest your bird is not taking enough fluids. Just something to keep an eye on. We are all fascinated with bird poops on this site as you notice. Whole stories can be written about them. Who knows, the book and made for TV movie may well be in the offing.

Keep up the good work though. My first bird by the way also had an injury like yours under one wing, large, quarter sized and the result of a puncture. I used Polysporin liberally which I think is the Canadian version of Neosporin but in the end I had good results. He healed and survived very nicely despite my worries he would die at any moment.

Also, don't be worried about the tough sounding questions. Everyone is watching this thread now, rooting for you and hoping for the best outcome. You are doing a *really* good job. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron...!


..'raw Peanuts' are a very common source of trace amounts of Aspirgillosis spores, which will not tend to bother people or most large Animals, but, can infest or begin trying to colonise suseptible Birds, or, suseptible anyone for that matter if in a weakened immune state...and in forms of illness which instead of effecting the Lungs and Airways per-se, as it usually does, can effect instead, the digestive system and ancillary organs to it...


Hence, I think it prudent to stear clear of them for any Pigeons whose health is less than very robust...


Thanks Terry...!


You are quite right of course...

I just tend to suggest folks stay with the most effecient foods for convelescents or invalids, since getting them to eat enough at all sometimes, or the chores of feeding them, already reduce usually the overall amount of food they will get, and, if on top of that, if what little they do get is only a small fraction of the nutritive value for it's bulk, of appropriate whole raw Seeds, then, I worry...

Plain un-popped Pop Corn is easy to get, digests nicely and is a nice slow burn calory wise with little fats to it...

Artimisia!


Too, making little 'balls' of thin bits of Kale, Collard Greeens, Endive...Cilantro...

In fact Cilantro MIGHT just be the one to go for, as it is a natural annodyne for many kinds of enterotoxins or bacteria and could be quite benificial for him...so, really, I'd say, go for the Cilantro 'green wise' and make little Cilantro 'balls' out of shredding and balling-up the tiny leaves of it, and 'pop' those...a dozen of those over the next 24 hours ought to be nice for him...

This will of course make for more 'green' poos possibly, Lol...but in a good way...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Artemesia,

Yup, I actually have to work, but have just been looking over the posts. Really think the ground up seeds in balls is just fine, The International Dove Society wouldn't recommend it if it compromised the rescued bird's well being. Thawed peas, corn, soaked puppy or kitty chow--all have something in common which is more moisture content. A good way of ensuring that the bird is getting hydrated along w/the nutrition. Can't beat that. In fact, this bird needs all the energy in its reserves aimed in the direction of healing right now, and as Terry pointed out, they are easy to digest. 

For an injured bird that hasn't been eating the usual (within a range) amount of food, you simply don't want to stuff them. I would think that you could leave some seed w/them in a bowl and augment that with your feedings to make sure that they aren't waning nutritionally. You can usually tell when the bird is reaching it's limit when, I will call this force feeding, it. It's best to watch for its limit and leave at that. Too much right now is not in the bird's best interest as it could compound the health issues. The bird will regain its strength if meant to be. They seem to have amazing recuperative reserves.

In the meantime, think you have your hands full w/cleaning the wounds, medicating, and in general keeping a watchful eye. Sending healing thoughts your way.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I wonder if that stuff that you had to remove below the layer of skin was crap that way packed in from a slide. Pierpont had garbage packed under the edge of her chest wound due to it having formed a pocket. And, sometimes when there's a scab, the skin can pull over it and trap it in. They're sometimes kinda' funny about stuff like that. Their bodies try to heal with incredible speed compared to ours.

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Oh lord Phil,

Now I am worried. I occassionally feed my wild flock crushed up peanuts, especially on cold days. Should I be cooking them first to kill off the potential aspergillosis. I don't want to go off track with Artemisia's thread though. Can you comment in just a few words?

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 

No, don't feed Birds cooked Peanuts...

Myself, I'd say, just skip the Peanuts and go for whole kernals of unpopped 'Pop Corn' or other larger whole Seeds that Pigeons like, instead...

I do not give any of mine Peanuts anymore...

I was, sometimes, and they loved them of course! and I was useing them for Seed-Pops...but, the more I read up on Peanuts, the more I decided I was not comfortable feeding them to any potentially immuno-compromised Pigeons.

So, to make things easy, I just stopped feeding them to any one...! Lol...

I think the whole Corn is much better for them anyway...and varius kindsof dried Peas...

I think they do not need or benifit from the higher levels of the kinds of fats which the Peanuts have...where, White Safflower is a nice 'Oil Seed' as is Flax Seeds too...and the Flax is a better kind of Oil...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok, no peanuts.
Bird is ok. Getting stronger, for sure. I still don’t like the look of the wound on his stomach, it was starting to heal but the skin down there I think folded on itself and grew together – there is an area of double-thick skin on one side of the wound. It could take a while. Plus the black nastiness, that was bad. 

But, otherwise, feeding going well. Bird is alert and interested when I hold him, but lapses into sitting and staring the minute I put him down anywhere. I just think he’s probably got some brain damage or something from his blow to the head. 

Ground up seeds/nuts etc going down well. I soak the mixture overnight so it won’t expand overmuch in his crop.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Artemesia,

That thing where the bird just sits still and seems to blankly stare off into space is something that I have seen mentioned many times in the Pigeon-Talk threads. Both of mine did that when first rescued and it went on for almost two weeks in case #2. There should perhaps be a name for it. I would call it bird-shock myself, it seems that common.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,


I did not know there was any injury or wound to his stomach...!

Sorry...I may have missed a few things...

It can be very dangerous to soak Seeds or Seed-Meal overnight, unless, possibly, it is at some very cold temperature, since this will to some extent, to a very meaningful extent when at 'room' temperature, allow the Seeds or ground Seeds to begin fermenting with various airborne Yeasts they had on them from the beginning or acquired in addition during preperation...and, result in either a Yeast infection or Candida getting established in the Pigeon's Crop, and for that infection to proceed from there on 'down'...or establish itself on down somewhere, whether or not the Crop itself is colonised pathologically.

Please consider to merely make whatever foods for him, simply, and not to keep for more than one refridgerated 'day'... if such foods are the kinds that can ferment...and not to soak them or their ingredients.

Or, I suppose, one could soak Seeds or Seed 'meal' in the 'ACV-Water', in a covered container in the refridgerator, so long as the covered container is some kind of "plastic" one and not china or ceramic or glass kind ( in order to avoid toxic leaching chemistry processes to reliably occur from the action of the Acid on the Glaze or on unknown Glass composition) ...


Does this make sense?


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Camrron said:


> Artemesia,
> 
> That thing where the bird just sits still and seems to blankly stare off into space is something that I have seen mentioned many times in the Pigeon-Talk threads. Both of mine did that when first rescued and it went on for almost two weeks in case #2. There should perhaps be a name for it. I would call it bird-shock myself, it seems that common.
> 
> Cameron



Hi Cameron,


This could bea result of Yeast infections I imagine, when such is not particularly conspicuous as a Crop condition...

Where the usually resultant, and various, toxic by-products ( Keytones, Acitones, Methyl and Ethyl and other Alcohols, ) of the potentially several kinds of Yeasts' occupations, are in effect intoxicating or poisong the Bird and interfereing with their Central Nervous System's finer functions...

I know some kinds of Yeast infections can make people pretty 'loopy'...

Birds being more sensitive than people are...for them, it might just show as that 'stare'...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think I'd soak things overnight and if I did, it'd be in the fridge to keep bacterial growth down. With Kaytee (a powdered formula for baby birds on up), they say to throw it away after it's been reconstituted for 30 minutes and it's loaded with "good bacteria".

Is this wound underneath a hole that's eventually going to need to be stitched up anyway? How big is it?

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

No, i definitely had the stuff in the fridge. but I think it's important that it be hydrated, because i wouldn't want it to swell up too much. 

The hole is bigger than a nickel. This time, there definitely isn't any "extra" skin to go around. there's a scab over part of it. I'm not sure but i think more of it may be necrotic, some of the flesh is a weird color (white-ish) - can't tell if it's dead or just supposed to look like that. But the hole looks like it's not too inflamed.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where, exactly, is it with respect to the vent, breastbone (top or bottom), wingroots or any other decent anatomical reference point?

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

The wound is on his belly but over to the side - right about at the edge of the wing when it is folded down, and forward a little from where the leg attatches. 

He ate a bunch of seed tongiht. After i was done flushing the wound he insisted in getting in the sink so i put seed in there with him and he sortof pecked around at it. But I may give him some ground up seed balls and peas tonight anyway.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's good news. Personally, I tend to think of the "belly" as the abdominal area which is very small on birds. What you're talking about is smack-dab on the pectoral muscle. Therefore, the hole is in skin that's actually fairly well anchored with fascia. I don't think it would be good to close it unless you can be sure that the surrounding tissue is not going necrotic due to either bacteria or trauma. However, when that's done, the procedure is to insert closed surgical scissors under the skin in all directions and then open them up. That will break the fascia and allow the skin to be stretched together to suture. The longer, slower way if it maintains a scab is to work on the edges of the scab a little at a time and the skin will just work to close the gap. That can take weeks and is certainly the least invasive. It's the possibility of desiccating the pectoral muscle that is the issue to consider as a Go/NoGo for taking the surgical option.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

I don't think this should be closed up right now. First of all, there is/was black necrotic skin that I had to remove (the top layer of the skin looked ok, but underneath it was black. And yes, I am certain it was his skin, not junk that had gotten pushed in there). So, closing it up would trap that stuff underneath. Also, there is a scab over about half the wound, which i have not fooled with. What i've been doing is using a small syringe to flush under the skin with dilute betadine (I actually insert the syringe between the skin and the muscle), and then i do the same thing with the neosporin - try and really get it in under the skin. He's so warm, the neosporin melts and runs out as soon as i turn him over the right way. It doesn't look worse, it might even be better. i wish i would have trimmed a little more of the skin away initially but I don't want to fool with it now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Half a nickel isn't so bad, I expect. I've seen many hawk-hit birds with wounds like that which heal well on their own after a week or so. You're really doing good!

How about that head wound--how's it looking? By the way, the site's going down in 15 minutes so we'll be out of touch for awhile.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Head wound is about the same - stitches still in, has sortof sealed up, but skin is greyer than i would like - i wish there were better circulation up there. Still not sure it it's really working or not! I would sure hate for that skin to not "take".


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Artimisia,


The 'gray' Skin on his Head is 'dead'...and, in my experience, is simply best left alone while being kept moist with the 'Neosporin'.

In time, as new growth proceeds under this protective 'cap'...the somewhat dessicating and possibly cracking cap of 'gray' will darken and after a while, will be released by the new healthy underlying tissue, and, then, it will simply get loose and fall off on it's own.

Those who have fiddeled with, debrided or removed such 'scabs' or dead skin-blood-dryish 'caps' instead of leaving them alone, seem to report protracted problems with how the new growth which would have otherwise been proceeding delicately under it, and under it's chemical and physical protection, then seems 'slow' or halting or stalled, or is not filling in what by then, is a naked area of Skull...so...

I would say leave it be, keep it and it's immediate surrounds moist with 'Neosporin', and make his nutrition and food intake as good as possible...and let 'time' and his own body's healing process deal with this area in their own way, till the 'cap' falls off on it's own, where, by then, if nothing interferes with it, there will be all new skin, delicate blood vessels and tissue there, and all will be filled in new and 'pink'.

Have you any friends who have Digital Cameras? where, with their help or borrowing it from them, you could post some images?


Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I'm sure in favour of that. Scabs are a good thing. A protective cover under which healing is taking place. What would worry me is open wounds that weep and don't heal, strange discoloured drainage and infection developing.

Like I say, scabs are good. I would almost never remove one.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,


For injuries like 'this' one is of the top of the Head, I believe 'yes', to leave them alone in essence, and to keep them 'moist' with the 'Neosporin'.

Unless obvious signs of active festering are occuring, in which case, some selective investigation or cleaning of small selected areas might be nice, to get out bothersome foreign matter and to deftly introduce antibiotics into or under the scab proper, while leaving it as much 'be' as possible...


However, if one see a clinging scab elsewhere, it is good to see what it may conceal.

A scab which forms 'later', from a fresh injury we did get to see critically before any scab was formed, is one thing.

A recent or semi-fresh scab already 'there', when we get the Bird, especially if on their Breast or Crop or other areas, is another...

...as, it can conceal a puncture or laceration wound which may or may not have some foreign object or foreign matter in it, or, whose wound channel should best be investigated, probed, repeatedly flushed, cleaned out untill one is satisfied it is 'clean', and then disinfected, for the hole the scab was 'on' to be either sutured, or allowed to heal otherwise.

So, in my understanding anyway, that is the clearification respecting when to leave a 'scab' alone, when to consider what kind of scab it is, and when to in fact become an invasive, scab scrubbing meddleing buisybody..!

Lol...

And of course, I am more than happy to be an invasive, meddleing, busibody, or to seek the Aid of a Vet for it, especially if when done, the Bird stands there, looks around, and seems to say, "Oh...well, was that all there was to 'that'? and we are done now? Hmmmm, and...Seeds? Uhhhh, Where are the Seeds please? and "No" I do NOT want to be picked 'up' thank you!!!! - sheeeeesh! such slow witted and annoying pink Featherless Octopuss-Creatures! "

Sometimes, these proceedures DO actually seem to make them feel better instantly almost...
especially if there is a bunch of gunk in there or festering and pain in the wound channel, which when cleaned out, and some medicine put into it, and stitched up snug, I am certain, feels much, much, better...and 'fast' too...


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

No Problem Phil,

I agree wholeheartedly. It's when you see gunk and festering as you mentioned then action has to be taken. But a nice well formed hard scab should never be tampered with if you want to avoid introducing serious infection or interfering with the natural healing process. Scabs form for a very good reason and our efforts to tear them away to see what's underneath just amounts to experimenting with the patients. Usually all to no avail and not for any good or positive results in my experience. I think natures ways are best left to themselves sometimes and good scabbing is an outcome we should be happy with and appreciate. 

Cameron


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I agree Camrron, scabs do make the best band-aids.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,

Yes, quite 'so'...

It is a matter of evaluation, constured or envisioned sequence, context and judgement...and not of rote...

Just like everything else in Life..!

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Artemesia,

In addition to placing the neosporin inside of the wound, I would also place on top of it if you are not already doing this. I had a wound that was sizably larger than this, it did take some time for it to heal, but it did close up, growing new tissue to fill in the void and without stitches to pull the skin together. This bird lost about one quarter of an inch of its spine in the hawk attack as well. It's hard to place an ETA on the growth of skin to full closure. Much depends on the birds overall health. Whether fast or slow, as long as the wound is cleaned and dressed w/the neosporin, preferably twice a day, it will eventually close. There are different ways to debride, enzymatic debridement is not an invasive one and works pretty well on non-viable tissue. But, by keeping the scab soft w/the ointment, I think it will do well.

It's sometimes difficult to bridge the distances accross keyboards w/descriptions, I remember when I first heard about a bird that was rescued at the Alameda Marina that was supposed to be a pigeon, but the man said that he had a very crooked beak. I figured there must be a misunderstanding, as pigeons don't have crooked/hooked beaks. But when I accepted the box w/the bird inside and had a look for myself, it was indeed a pigeon w/a pronounced hook to the beak. Sometimes seeing is believing, and I trust your observations on the "black stuff".

The Kaytee Exact baby bird formula could also be mixed and rolled into balls and is specially formulated w/all the nutrients that a baby bird needs. It would be easy to digest, and if you sometimes needed a break from the kitchen work, it also does well with sick or injured birds.

fp


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions! This bird is indeed a lot of work.
I have actually been doing the flushing/cleansing and neosporin 2x a
day... then also feeding the ground-up stuff - tho i may give him a break
from that this morning. It's hard to know how hungry he really is. i can't
believe that in nature he could ever eat as much as I'm giving him... i
see these flocks of 50 pigeons wheeling around and sometimes there is
bread strewn around in the little park across from my apartment but
really, what the hell do they all eat?

Meant to say, Camrron, thanks for the reassuring words on the
"sit-and-stare" syndrome - because of all the things that have me worried,
that's prob the worst. The wounds can heal, but brain damage.. i can't do
much about that!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I would be reassured that he is responsive to interacting w/you when you are tending his wounds or feeding him. He's afterall, a feral who is used to living with other pigeons, not humans, and it's hard to know if he was mated at the time of the injury and if he's left loved ones behind. The ones that need extended care do seem to make the adjustment over time of being indoors with a caregiver and getting their daily needs met w/out the struggle of feral life, so at least there is that advantage of the captivity. Also, they have a loving nature, and seem to know and appreciate the support that is being given.

The ferals in the city look for places that humans discard or drop food, whether intentionally or not. They may also go to areas like empty lots or embankments where grass is growing and forage for seeds in these areas. It does seem amazing that they can find enough or that there is enough for all of the ones living inside the cities. Guess humans are a messy lot.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When they're considerably banged up (and this bird definitely qualifies) they often do sit and stare because it seems like they're in a healing trance. I've had quite a few do it. Yours demonstrates plenty of responsiveness at times so I'm hopin' we're alright.

I was wondering if the gray skin is translucent and there's some dark buildup underneath? That's kinda' what I had to deal with in Pierpont for the worst of it. You can take a small penlight and "transilluminate" the area by pushing the end of the light against the skin a ways away from the area in question and you may be able to see if there's a darkened mass under the skin. That's a simple and non-invasive technique that can be very helpful at times. You just have to rake the feathers to look in different places.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Well, actually, I am not completely pessimistic about the "grey" skin - 
it doesn't look transluscent, it's quite dense, actually. So maybe it will be ok. 

wound on the tummy looked better this morning. Icky scab was gone (not my doing) - either smoothed out and rehydrated by the treatment, or had fallen off (more likely) - anyway, the flesh is ok under there and there is a membrane over it and it doens't look too infected. 

Bird had VERY wet poop this morning - possibly dirrarhea from the antibiotics? pls remind me, what can i do about that?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I suppose it depends on the wetness. A bird has a "cloaca" which is a very complicated piece of equipment. Urine from the kidneys passes into the Urodeum (kinda' like a bladder) where it can either get dumped for any of many reasons or it can move retrograde into the lower intestines for water reclamation. The whites that you see are the urates which are simply urine reduced down to a more crystalline form. 

Because of this arrangement that's so different from ours, it takes a bit of investigation to determine whether a "wet poop" is actual diarrhea from the intestine, a polydipsia/polyuria condition (many causes; sometimes due to kidney problems) or just plain "let's dump now and get ready to split!"

So, it means that you start watching the bird and taking a real good look at the poop. You've got him on Baytril, right?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's a link to show the anatomy:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/424279324/1424330288073664377HVnonE#

If there's a pile of solids sitting in the middle of what looks like water, then it's probably the "let's dump... !" deal. If there's a lot of yellowish water that has a slightly viscous consistency and an odd, non-sulfurous odor, it might be coccidiosis:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/388039642/1388064591073664377XsWSjF

A coccidial oocyst (and a Capillaria egg):

http://community.webshots.com/photo/398198074/1398213881073664377AryCyR#

If there's a lot of gray-greenish diarrhea like split pea soup, it can be the early stages of PMV. If it's diarrhea that stinks (sulfurous) badly and has some really ugly reddish-brown coloration, it can be enteritis caused by some nasty intestinal bug. There are even psychological conditions where birds get the PD/PU complex (Polydipsia: Excessive Thirst/Polyuria: Excessive Urination) as a matter of just plain goofy-ness where you resolve it by restricting their water intake until they figure out they don't need it.

The sky isn't exactly the limit on poops and their meaning, but there's definitely a lot of altitude to play with.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Yes, Baytril. 
the poop was downright watery this morning...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've seen plenty of pigeons that have demonstrated absolutely no effect on their poop even after long courses of Baytril. Neither Pierpont nor Otis ever had a difference in theirs after two months of the stuff. Of course, there's something to be said for dosing. I based their dosing on their respective weights.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Haven't posted in a while so i thought I'd give an update. "Zipper" (cause of the stitches down his head!) is now in a cage I built in a windowsill, so he can look outside. It's great to have my bathroom back...
He is doing pretty ok. The stomach wound is still not where I'd like it, just hard to tell what's going on with it. And I can't tell if the skin on his head is growing together or just held together by the stitches. And his wing still is pretty bad, tho I undid the tape that was holding it to his tail because it wasn't clear whether he was comfortable that way. But... he is pretty strong... more active... eating seeds, tho i am still rolling stuff down him now and then. He sleeps a LOT, which I didn't realize when he was living in the bathroom, because he'd be awake by the time i'd opened the door.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's going to be a wait-and-see game due to the obvious 'blunt-trauma'. You don't see a lot of "closed-eyes sleeping" in adult pigeons except in situations where they live alone with people (usually for quite some time) and feel incredibly safe. Otherwise, they will sleep with one or both eyes open and often standing on one or the other leg.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> It's going to be a wait-and-see game due to the obvious 'blunt-trauma'. You don't see a lot of "closed-eyes sleeping" in adult pigeons except in situations where they live alone with people (usually for quite some time) and feel incredibly safe. Otherwise, they will sleep with one or both eyes open and often standing on one or the other leg.
> 
> Pidgey



Pidgey, I had to laugh about this comment. It kinda made me feel good because our two house birds get mad if I wake them up, particularly after we bring them in from the aviary. They won't even bother to get out of their beds for a bit. They are plumb tuckered out. 

Maggie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> They are plumb tuckered out.
> 
> Maggie


Face it, Lady Tarheel, they MAY just be plumb spoilt!

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi all
Pij is not doing so good. His whole side where the wound is is swollen (hard and firm) and he's holding his wing away from his body and he's lying down a lot. The wound is still seeping blood and there is a lot of blackening around it. I think the injury was broad but I don't understand why it's getting WORSE now. He's still on the Baytril, and i've been doing Metacam (v. dilute) at night. I think i'd like to try him on asperin after all. Can you do it 2x a day? 
thanks -


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Perhaps something inside went necrotic. And it's still possible that he was impaired by another disease process and that's why he got hit in the first place. A blackening lump that's seeping blood sounds more like a tumor than anything else, really. Is there any way that you can get this bird to a vet?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If you think he is bleeding, please don't give aspirin. One of the side effects of aspirin is bleeding, it would only do worse if you give it to him.

I think too a vet visit is in order here.

Reti


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

I don't think it's a tumor - I think he was struck hard or dragged. But I do think there may have been more injuries inside. 

Vet is always an option - but not an easy one, because of all the usual things - money, logistics, time, etc. 

What do you think about switching him to asperin rather than metacam? Asperin can have blood-thinning qualities, right? which actually might be a good thing if it helps all the badness to drain out. 

He was doing GOOD a day ago. Not sure why the decline.


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

He is not "bleeding". This is an old injury -probably about two weeks old, now. But it is still seeping "old" blood out from under the skin, and there was a lot of bruising around the wound (green/black skin coloration). There's not been any blood in the stool, either.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Seems like we've mentioned this before but does one of your friends have a digital camera that you can borrow? Incidentally, are there many feathers gone from the wounded area as though there is a smooth baldness (alopecia)? And is there a possibility that he tried to fly and hurt himself worse?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Artemisia said:


> He is not "bleeding". This is an old injury -probably about two weeks old, now. But it is still seeping "old" blood out from under the skin, and there was a lot of bruising around the wound (green/black skin coloration). There's not been any blood in the stool, either.



It shouldn't be seeping blood from an old wound in the first place, so probably there is something wrong.
Aspirin interferes with clot forming, which is necessary for wound healing. And even worse, if you have to reopen the wound, you or a vet, than you don't want to be under the effects of aspirin, it can lead to serious bleeding. The bleeding effect of aspirin lasts one week.
Also that the bird is loosing blood already, this has to be addressed, they can get anemic pretty quick, considering the low blood volume they have. You need to keep him well hydrated and warm and address the "seeping" quickly.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if it's "old blood" seeping out that has been locked away like a 'blood blister' then there are other problems to consider and that's what I meant by the necrotic reference. I do agree with Reti about Aspirin and its use here. But I also feel that we need to get to the bottom of this swelling issue (no pun intended). I have seen wounds that stank of rottenness that the bird was trying to push out. The Keflex that I mentioned earlier in this deal is often a better antibiotic for things like that than Baytril which isn't so good for penetrating nectrotic tissue. Another idea would be a Baytril/Metronidazole combo. Read this:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/metronidazole.html

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

thanks! that's helpful. 
The wound isn't stinking, but, it's a surface wound - if there is internal stuff going necrotic, it's locked up inside. 

He has lost a few feathers around there, indeed. But not excessively. 

Camera thing is hard - I'll ask around. 

Maybe I can get the vet to change/extend the antibiotic.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The reason why I ask about feather loss is that if there's a significant inflammatory response to infection underneath, you will often see the loss of feathers in the area.

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

That's helpful to know. Well, I'll look more carefully tonight. but i think most of the feathers are in place.

I am bummed. He was really doing good before.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they're incredibly tough creatures and can stand a lot. I've had them pretty sick for weeks due to things and then pull out:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

All,

Got a call from Artemisia last night and the bird wasn't doing too well at all. Apparently, there was some fresh blood splattered around that at first glance she thought the bird was coughing up. In an email this morning, she thinks it might rather be from the nostrils as if he'd bumped it on something.

She did say that it had actually tried to fly out the window (the cage is next to the window) a couple of days ago so it wasn't anything more than an inch or two and nowhere to go upward. I didn't think that would hurt him although he could wear himself out trying. She also had said that he'd been eating real well lately until the last couple of days so she'd been real hopeful that he was definitely on the mend. She emailed me this morning to say that he made it through the night and she gave him the Baytril (we decided to stop the Metacam due to the blood) but didn't have the heart to hand feed him. Poor fella's going through a rough time right now.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the update, Pidgey.
Poor bird, doesn't sound too good. At least he has the energy to want to fly.
Hope he does better today and starts eating again.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, he didn't make it. He pecked a couple of seeds and so she sat down to feed him. Apparently, a major blood artery or vein ruptured shortly thereupon because he spat up a lot of blood and died quite quickly. She wrote me two more emails--one in the hope that he was feeling better because he'd eaten a couple of seeds on his own and then the next to explain how quickly he'd died when she started to feed him.

She's feeling very guilty right now but this sounds like it would have caught any and all of us by complete surprise. It's always so very hard when you try so hard against such odds and even see significant gain and then something like this happens. I don't know if she'll have the heart to visit the board again so I think we all ought to send her our various condolences by email:

[email protected]

Pidgey


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## Artemisia (Feb 22, 2006)

All –
Here I am, I did want to stop in one more time to thank everyone for their amazing responses, encouragement and advice. 

I don’t know what happened with the bird, he was definitely on the mend, or seemed so, but there must have been internal problems I couldn’t see. I was amazed that he lived through the night. 

I think it was a mistake on my part this morning to try and get some seedballs down him. He had eaten a bite on his own so I thought he might do better if I got some nutrition down him, but it caused whatever internal injury he had to rupture further. I guess that is a lesson, but a hard one, since feeding him in the days prior had led to significant weight gain. He was definitely getting stronger and more feisty. 

I never saw an animal fight so hard to live with such significant injuries. I know you all have seen worse but this was a first for me. 

Anyway, I buried him in the park this morning. 

Thanks again to all.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry the bird didn't make it. Thank you for doing all you did for this pigeon. You made a heroic effort, and that is greatly appreciated by all of us here on Pigeon-Talk. I know how much it hurts to lose one when you think you have gotten things going the right way.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am very sorry the bird didn't make it. 
He probably did have severe internal injuries that nobody could know off without surgery. 
You did your very best and much better than most people would have done.
Thank you for caring this sweetie, I am sure he appreciated it too.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*


Artemisia said:



All –
Here I am, I did want to stop in one more time to thank everyone for their amazing responses, encouragement and advice. 

I don’t know what happened with the bird, he was definitely on the mend, or seemed so, but there must have been internal problems I couldn’t see. I was amazed that he lived through the night. 

I think it was a mistake on my part this morning to try and get some seedballs down him. He had eaten a bite on his own so I thought he might do better if I got some nutrition down him, but it caused whatever internal injury he had to rupture further. I guess that is a lesson, but a hard one, since feeding him in the days prior had led to significant weight gain. He was definitely getting stronger and more feisty. 

I never saw an animal fight so hard to live with such significant injuries. I know you all have seen worse but this was a first for me. 

Anyway, I buried him in the park this morning. 

Thanks again to all.

Click to expand...

*
Please, please, do not feel guilty. We know you did all you could and much more than most!

Sometimes, no matter how hard you try, there is nothing that can change a sad outcome.

Your efforts were VERY APPRECIATIED, not only by the members of Pigeon Talk, but, more importantly, by the pigeon him/herself! THANK YOU!


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Artemsia,

You really went "above and beyond" in trying to help this poor bird with so many problems and injuries. You did a wonderful job. I'm sorry after all your blood, sweat and tears that a happier outcome was not to be.

Thank you for caring.

Linda


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