# Adult pigeon with salmonella and lower swollen drooping wing



## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Hi everybody! We found an adult pigeon with one wing drooping and swollen lower than the other 5 days ago. We have been searching in forums and we found out he has salmonella, his symptoms are as follows:

* Lower and swollen left wing, although he stretches both wings and has attempt to fly a couple of times but really low. He also preens himself quite often.

* Mostly stays at the same spot tho he moves sometimes up and down and doesnt show any articulation problem on his feet.

* He eats and drink very little, so we have started feeding him and giving the meds with a syringe. He has taken salmonella antibiotic called Tetra 250 capsule and vitamins for the last 2 days and he does look more energetic since.

* His droppings were very green at first and since meds they turned lighter green, a bit watery and with white bits.

* We have read also that its important to give him in the meantime probiotics but we have just found that out and we dont know which ones to buy.

We will attach a picture in the morning, if anyone can please give us some advice on how to take best care of him we would really appreciated, also any other effective antibiotic against salmonella.

Thanks a lot


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi, welcome to the forum.

This medicine, Tetra 250, contains tetracycline. Its ineffective for Salmonella ; it will treat respiratory illness and some rarer illnesses like staph/strep infections.

So I can't really explain the improvement you described. Your bird either doesn't have salmonella, or it has some sort of co-infection perhaps. It might also be responding well to warmth, regular food and water, as it may have been starving before you found the poor little thing. 

What you need is a medicine called `Baytril', if the pigeon does have Salmonella. Some other options are enroflox or ciprofloxacin, which are other names for the same kind of medicine as Baytril. Not sure where you could get them in Turkey, apart from a vet. 

Finally, probiotics are a type of `beneficial' bacteria. The antibiotics will simply kill all bacteria (including beneficial), so its no real use to give probiotics until after the antibiotics are finished.

PS.Some other causes for drooping wings can be muscle strain due to an injury, and starvation due to another illness like coccidia etc.

Hope some of that helps- sorry I don't know where to get Baytril in Turkey.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Welcome, Jazztel! Thank you for helping this bird!

Salmonella (also called paratyphoid) is a disease I have treated fairly frequently -- and I do agree that it sounds possible that your bird has it (though other things can cause similar symptoms). How much of the antibiotic are you giving the bird daily?

Tetra 250 is tetracycline, which actually isn't the best treatment if this is salmonella -- the most effective antibiotic against salmonella is Baytril, which is sold in a generic form under the name enrofloxacin or enroflaxyn. A close cousin of this drug, norfloxacin, also works well. 

I use the enroflaxyn tablets found here:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

I've also heard good recommendations for this product: I'm pretty sure this vendor ships internationally --

http://www.pigeonsproducts.com/salmonella-tab-by-pantex-720?keyword=Salmonellosis

My probiotic of choice is Health Gard, which can be found here:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-pro-biotics.html

With Baytril, I generally give a preventive treatment for yeast -- in addition to probiotics. I use a product called Medistatin, which you can find here:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-651/MEDISTATIN-100-g-(Medpet)/Detail.bok



What are you feeding the bird right now? 

Also, It's good to provide supportive heat to a sick bird -- I put them on a heating pad, set on low, and covered with a towel or soft cloth. 

Since you are in Turkey, I don't know what medicines are readily available to you, but this gives you an idea where to start. 

If you could try to get a close-up of the wing swelling, that would be really helpful. Also, if you can post a picture of the dropping, that also helps. 

Since the tetracycline seems to be making a difference, I would continue that until you can get some of the enrofloxacin --


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella -- great minds think alike, eh? We were posting at the same time, and saying basically the same thing.

I'm also not sure why the bird is improving on the tetracycline, but it does seem to be making a difference, so it may be that the bird has E Coli instead, which can look a lot like salmonella, and does often respond to the cyclines. Some strains of salmonella respond to the cyclines, too, though they generally aren't as effective as the fluoroquinolones

Or, it is a combined infection -- most of the paratyphoid birds I see have other infections going on too, since salmonella opens the door to just about everything else.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thank you guys. We are currently feeding the bird bread. He also has wheat in front of him in a plate. We are giving like 0.5 mg every day. We'll try to acquire the medicines you listed tomorrow, and take a picture of him and post here. Since its night here, we dont want to pester him so much for taking his picture since we are keeping the room we are sitting with him rather dark. We'll update this in a few hrs and Thanks again!!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

See if you can get some pigeon seeds. In the mean time, defrosted peas and corn (the frozen kind) are good -- if you warm them up to room temperature, you can feed them to the bird one at a time ... open the beak and place the pea inside, toward the back -- they generally swallow automatically. 

Letting it rest in the dark is good -- that really helps them recover.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Great, thanks a lot! we are going to follow the instructions and update tomorrow


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do the droppings smell bad? That is one of the symptoms of salmonella. The wing could be broken at the joint. The green droppings could be due to starvation were he unable to find food?
I realize you are in Turkey and I don't know if you have pet stores like we do in the US. If so, do look for a dove mix. If you don't have a pet store, perhaps you can find a grain mix that is sold to feed chickens. To it you can add dried peas, lentils, brown rice. You can also add those items to the dove mix if you find it.

If you are going to hand feed the peas and corn...you will need to hand feed quite a lot of them. Here are pre-written instruction, for a young pigeon that hasn't learned to eat on his own. The work just as well for an adult pigeon.

You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. With babies that have been hand raised, this won't be necessary. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the bird’s crop empties until you know he is eating on his own. 

The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas and corn make it lumpy and squishy.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

minimonkey said:


> Bella -- great minds think alike, eh? We were posting at the same time, and saying basically the same thing.
> 
> .


Hey yeah! Sorry for not seeing your post before posting mine! 

I do think you have a really great mind Tons of experience too by sounds of it!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella -- I think we were probably both writing at the same time.... 

Thanks for the sweet compliment! I also value your experience and your contributions to this board. I think you have a great mind, too 

I'm just now starting to feel somewhat experienced ... I've been rehabbing since 2005, when I was a complete beginner to pigeons, and I ended up saving two babies, and hand rearing them. (I still have both of them). 

I learned a lot from our old poster FeralPigeon, who lived near me, and was willing to teach me... she taught me how to crop feed, how to do an injection on a bird, and the basics of diagnosis and treatment. I also learned a ton from reading this board ... the archives are full of information that covers just about every possible topic. 

After that, I was totally hooked, and I've done a lot of learning by researching, and by doing. I feel pretty confident handling most issues at this point, though there's always more to learn.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Hello guys, a pharmacy nearby ordered Baytril for us and we are gonna get it tomorrow. In the meantime we are feeding him with corn. Here are the pictures of his left wing and droppings. We dont think the wing is due to broken or injured cause he doesnt show pain and he stretches them and preens. We will keep updating. thanks


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pigeons don't have an expression for pain. Because of that, some contend they don't feel pain, which is not true at all.
Does the poop smell bad? That would be an indication of salmonella.
Also, have you felt and looked, where the wing connects to the pigeon's body, for a break? You should be able to feel it if it's broken. It would be quite swollen at the joint.
Beautiful little pigeon.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks Charis, we have examined pigeons wing and yes, we missed it out but there is hard lump in his wing. Could this mean that its a broken joint? and if it is a broken joint or his wing is broken, how are we going to treat him ?Also the droppings dont smell too bad, like if you are pretty close they smell a little but we dont really know weather this is bad enough. we have little experience with pigeons so we really appreciate your advice. We were gonna get Baytril tomorrow, what shall we do now? Also his dropping have started to have more white bits on it. Thanks a lot


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

The way you took the pic from above, seems like the swollen joint is between 18 & 19, but from the first pic looks like there's some damage on between 16 & 17


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This swelling is right on the joint, which is a very, very common place for paratyphoid (salmonella) to cause swelling. 

Does the joint on this wing feel significantly bigger than on the other wing? 

I'd go ahead and treat with the Baytril, if this were my rescue. E Coli and Salmonella can both cause joint swelling, and Baytril is very effective against salmonella, and against many strains of E Coli, too. 

This type of wing drooping could also be from an injury, but I'd rather be safe than sorry when it comes to a possible bacterial infection. Salmonella can get severe very fast if it isn't treated promptly, 

Salmonella droppings don't always have a terribly strong smell. These aren't the classic, dark vivid green that often comes along with salmonella, but they don't look healthy, either. 

This really is a beautiful pigeon.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Dima, I agree... seems like there might be two joints involved here....


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks minimonkey! we are just about to go and get it. How long will it take to see any improvements if swollen joint is cause by salmonella? and how much of Batryl do we have to give him? Thanks again


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

How is your baytril dosed? Is it liquid? Pills? 

Generally the dose for an average adult pigeon is around 7.5 milligrams per day, preferably given in two doses ... 

When you get it, let us know, and someone will be able to help with the dosing.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

We got 2.5% 100 ml baytril, its oral solution. We were reading about the dosage in this forum, it was kinda of confusing, hopefully we got it right tho pigeon seems a bit sleepy and we noticed last nite that he was shivering a little. We have given him 0,2 ml in 7 ml of water. Is this correct? Is it good to keep him warm? we read the shivers can also we due to salmonella. Thanks a lot for helping us


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It is a bit confusiong -- but that sounds about right, yes. 

I don't suppose you know the bird's exact weight, do you?

Most formularies call for 15 mg/kg of bodyweight, for Baytril.

The 2.5% solution contains 25 mg of the drug per ml/cc -- so, using 15 mg/kg as the dose, the amount to give for each *100 grams of weight* would be 0.06 cc/ml.

100 grams 0.06 cc/ml
200 grams 0.12 cc/ml
300 grams 0.18 cc/ml
400 grams 0.24 cc/ml

Assuming your bird is between 300 and 400 grams (most adult ferals are, unless they are really underweight) then 0.2 cc is the right dosage. Adding some water into the mix is good... I've heard that Baytril solution can burn a bit otherwise.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

oh thank you! im supposing this is one daily dosage, right? I read 5 to 10 days to see any improvements, is this correct?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That dose comes out to 6 mgs of Baytril. You might want to give it in two doses -- half in the morning, half in the evening -- that's generally best. 

Also, with paratyphoid, I give a loading dose the first day, meaning I give double the dose of baytril on the first day only. 

Definitely keep the bird warm -- that is always good with a sick bird. I put them on a heating pad, set on low, and covered with a soft cloth. 

Shivering is common when a bird is sick -- but the thing with paratyphoid is that some strains of it can get into the central nervous system and cause a lot of neurological problems, and then it is much harder to get a full recovery. Shivering and twitching can be the first signs of this. 

If I were you, I'd give the double dose of the baytril today, and see if you can knock this back now -- if it is paratyphoid, you'll probably see a difference pretty fast... generally it responds to baytril pretty quickly.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Also -- this may be stating the obvious, so if it is, forgive me... 

But with pigeons, you need to place any liquid quite far back in the beak. If you open the beak and look in, you'll see a hole at the back of the tongue... this is the bird's airway. It is important to put the medicine in behind that, so the bird swallows it and it doesn't get in the airway (which is very dangerous). 

It's best to put the syringe in the side of the beak and slide it back that way, along the side and to the back. Sorry if that isn't the best description -- but you want to avoid that little hole at all costs, and get the meds in behind it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

So, yes ... 6 milligrams daily, best given at 3 mgs in the morning, and three milligrams at night. 

Assuming this is paratyphoid/salmonella, treat for a minimum of 14 days. I actually treat for 21 days with paratyphoid ... some people think the longer course isn't necessary, but my experience with this disease is that it often requires 21 days, and sometimes even longer. 

It depends on the strain of the disease. Where I live, we see a strain that is pretty resistant to treatment, and tends to go into the CNS very quickly.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I often see a marked improvement within two days on the meds.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks again, we will follow instructions and update tomorrow


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Hello guys, after 2 and a half days of treatment we have noticed that the swollen wing is noticeably smaller in size which is good news. Also he has started eating noticeable amount of food and drank water by himself and hes more active, walks a bit more. Also he has gain some strength, when we fed him he fights more and hes stretching more and higher up both wings. We are quite happy with the results and will keep you update soon, thanks a lot!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That's fantastic news!  Thanks for the update!

Baytril is really a miracle drug for salmonella, as well as for a lot of other illnesses. 

So glad this bird is doing so much better -- thank you for caring for it.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks minimonkey, you are helping us a lot!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm glad I can help -- but you are the ones doing all the work here, and you are doing a fantastic job with this bird. 

It's a lovely pigeon --- what a cute expression in that last picture


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

thanks, hes really cute, will keep updating soon


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jazztel said:


> thanks, hes really cute, will keep updating soon


..........


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Hi people ! 

here's an update about our bird.

His wing is now quite normal in size, not swollen. he is in good spirits, eating, moving around, preening, sometimes attempting to fly.

however he cant fly - he flaps his wings a few times, and then just stops, as if he is dissatisfied with the result or maybe of some pain.

we started to suspect his wing is broken, or dislocated or something. but, we dont know what should we do about it. we read some threads about it in the forum, but it talks about vet tapes and whatnot - stuff we dont have. also, there doesnt seem to be any instructions regarding what to do if the bird had that broken wing for a while - he has been with us close to a month now, and we dont know what would happen to a broken wing in that duration, or whether the wing would still heal if just wrapped/bandaged into position starting from now.

The wing is still dropped wing towards the ground and the lump at the back of the wing is still there. We have treated him with Baytril for almost 3wks now and given him vitamins. 

we would appreciate any pointers. thanks a lot.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm glad to hear that you pigeon is doing well on the whole, but sorry to hear about the ongoing wing problems. 

Joint problems caused by bacterial infections can take a very long time to clear up, and sometimes require a longer course of medication, or a different medication altogether. 

Can you feel anything markedly different about this wing than the other one? 

If it is broken, it has probably basically already set as is, and there isn't much you can do to correct that (except to have someone re-break and attempt to set the wing.) My guess is that it isn't a break, but rather ongoing joint problems, either from an infection or from an injury. 

Is the swollen joint hot to the touch at all?


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks a lot minimonkey. It does feel hotter and that area compare to the other wing. We attached some pics just taken from the external and internal area. He stays at a place at aprox 50cm from the floor, has no problems in going down to the floor by jumping and flapping a bit but cant go back up. It has been already 3wks since we started with Baytril and he does seem better but tho the flaps his wings more now he cant fly up, only reaches like about 20cm up and he then falls. We are unsure weather is joint or bone actually. I touched the other wing same joint/bond and it definitely feels like its a major one, tho its of course much smaller. what do you think we should do? thanks


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This definitely looks like a joint problem to me (on the elbow joint), and probably bacterial in origin. The fact that it's warm to the touch helps support that diagnosis. 

It does look a lot like the boils that are caused by paratyphoid, which can be tricky to clear up sometimes. Other bacteria can cause arthritic swellings too, though, so it isn't a definite on the diagnosis. 

I'd keep her/him on the Baytril for at least another week, since she's doing better with it. Sometimes a switch to a different med can make a difference with infections in the joint. Cephalexin sometimes works, so does Clindamycin.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks a lot, we really appreciate your help. We will keep on the Baytril for another wk then. Also, those 2 meds (cephalexin and clindamycin) are they compatible with baytril? which one do you recommend? is it possible that he might never recover from this joint problem and thus will not be able to fly again ?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It would probably be best to switch to the cephalexin or clindamycin, rather than combining them, and see if that works. 

I'd recommend trying clindamycin -- it seems to have one of the best track records for clearing out joint infections. 

It is possible that this won't recover fully, but I do think there's a good likelihood that the pigeon will regain some flight. I have a rescue bird who had a boil on her wing joint that had burst open when I found her. It took 6 weeks of Baytril, and another 3 weeks of cephalexin, but it finally cleared up. (I didn't know about clindamycin back then.) She can fly reasonably well now -- not enough that I could release her, but she can certainly get around ok.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks, we will try and find the clindamycin tomorrow and stop the baytril then, see how it goes. Really hope he gets better, he does seem to want to fly badly flapping his wings often, poor thing.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Once in a while, a bird can have an adverse reaction to clindamycin, so if it seems to make him worse, discontinue it. Most birds seem to tolerate it pretty well, and it is one of the most effective drugs for anything bone related. 

Someone can help you figure out the dosing.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

thanks, we will pay attention and update when we get clindamycin


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

we just got the clindamycin, it came as one  ampoule that contains 4mL. do you know how much we should give him?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Do you know how many mgs are in the ampoule?


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

yes, it contains 600mg


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The dosing recommendation is 100 mg per kilogram of body weight, once per day. 

If you have a gram scale, then you can get your bird's exact weight. If not, then I'd run with an estimate of probably around 400 grams, assuming the bird is not underweight -- meaning you'd want to dose 40 mgs, one time a day. 

Each ml of the liquid that you have would have 150 mgs in it, so you'd want to dose 0.26 ml of the liquid, one time a day. 

Be sure to watch for any sign that the bird isn't tolerating the medication well -- if it appears to have any problems, stop the dosing. Most do fine with it, but it's best to be aware of the potential for problems. 

One of our old members, Pidgey, swears by clindamycin for clearing up infections in bones and joints, and has had really good success with using it for wing boils.


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks minimonkey, we will follow instructions and pay attention. we were reading yesterday from older threads that this med can have some bad reactions, so we will make a smaller dose and watch what happens.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'd go with the suggested dosing, since it will be most effective that way -- but just be aware for any possible bad reactions. Many of us have used clindamycin with no problems whatsoever, and it is very effective against infections in the bone and joints -- but once in a while, a bird can't tolerate it. (In which case, even a smaller dose would cause problems).

Please keep us updated on the bird's progress!


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

We have him the clindamycin and so far seems good, no bad reactions  we will keep u updated, thanks you so much!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Great news! Now let's hope that wing starts to get better, too...


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## Jazztel (Nov 8, 2012)

Sorry we didnt repply earlier. we gave clindamycin for 3 days, on the first day he seemed fine but later on the second and third we noticed his head was in the same position looking to the right all the time and couldnt turn it the other way. He was doing very awkward neck movements turning his head 180 and keeping his head near his legs as if his head was inverted. He was always turning to his left and wasnt able to move to his right or straight. he was having difficulties eating and was going in circles around his plate or seeds scattered on the ground. His wing also was swollen again. So we switched to baytril after that and he immediately got better after 1.5 days and now hes able to turn and eat properly and walks straight. His wing also seems to be less swollen now, so we are gonna stick to baytril for another week or so and see what happens. we will keep updating. merry xmas everyone and enjoy the holidays.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Glad you noticed the problems and stopped the clindamycin right away! Also glad the Baytril is helping. It often is central nervous system signs that show up with clindamycin, but they go away if the drug is stopped.

Please keep us updated


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