# White Racing Pigeon Breeders



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone knows of pigeon fanciers in the States who breed, fly, train, race, etc white racing pigeons who have a racing background, and can easily come home from 150-200 miles. The white birds in my area have a poor homing instinct, a majority of them bred for dove releases, thus they have a poor ability to come back home (not enough selective breeding).

Right now I have 15 pairs of white homers. Out of which some have successfully flown 40-50 kilometers over water so I'm guessing they have SOME good homing instinct. A few are older birds which I'm hoping are some of the originals (from when they actually had a good homing ability). 

I know Dennis Kuhn has white racers (with good homing ability) and I have contacted him. However, I'm wondering if there are others out there in the States who have good white racers (not homers). I'm not looking for those high production guys who say they have Delbar, Disney, etc. I'm looking for birds that come from a proven background. 

Thanks in advance!


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Dennis Kuhn whiteracers.com he is a member here and I think a few others are members here also that have race tested birds. Some one will come along that has good white birds.
Dave


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Since I'm in Canada, importing the birds is just too costly for me (being a full time student and only 19 years old makes it that much harder). 

What I can do, with a connection of mine in customs, I can import fertile pigeon eggs instead.

My idea is to buy fertile eggs from John Doe (insert name here) from America, and put them under foster parents (my racing pigeon breeders).

Advantages:

1. Cost effective - won't have to pay BIG money to get live birds imported into Canada. Fertile eggs should probably cost no more than $10-$15 a piece because the risks are so high, and the breeders birds will just lay eggs again in 2 weeks (no risk for the person I'm buying from).
2. Genetic Improvement - the white homers available in Canada have a poor homing instinct. Very high losses, and would need 5-6 of extreme selective breeding to even develop a consistent family of whites (not the fastest, but reliable).

Disadvantages:

1. The timing needs to be just right (for the persons breeders laying the eggs, and my foster pairs being ready to incubate the eggs/raise the babies). 

To counter this problem I can just have an extra amount of foster parents ready. Example: I buy 20 eggs (logically would need 10 pairs, but I'll use 16 or 18 pairs so that there will be some back up pairs if the timing is off by a little).

2. Can be a high percentage of losses. Example: eggs being infertile, eggs not hatching, babies dying, etc. 

To counter this problem: nothing really that can be done. Just hope for the best and provide the foster parents with an ideal/exceptional breeding environment.


When looking at the risks and rewards, I'm willing to take the risks of some eggs not hatching instead of paying the import fees.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Advantage to the person I'm buying from could also be that their name, birds, results, etc would go international or at least North American. By having their birds competing in Canada (more harsher climate), plus I plan to race any bird I breed, so there will be a similar selective process as they do currently. 
We have huge hawk problems too. 

So this would be a good opportunity for someone to really test their whites out.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

gurbir, what is you're goal with the white birds? it sounds like you want to do what Dennis has done and breed a good line of white or almost white and grizzle racing stock homers. Is it racing birds you are wanting? you are young and do have allot of time to mess with color and race results, but it is hard to do both. but then again that may not be you're goal.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

To some point, I want the whites to be good enough to enter in local races at least. I don't really want to race whites in one loft races or any races with thousands of birds. I just want to have a consistent family of whites that can fly competitively with the coloured pigeons at the local level (Around 500-700 pigeons every race, which isn't too bad). 

I will still continue to breed, train, race, etc the coloured racers because I also want some good coloured birds. 

The whites and the coloured birds will be trained the same, fed the same, bred in the same manner, etc. Almost every bird - coloured or white - will be sent to the races (only exceptions being sick, injured, not fit birds). 

I want white birds that loft fly, route, and can come back home in a decent time from at least 200 miles. 

This is not something that will probably be done in a year or two, but if I start with some really good birds via the eggs from America (since Canada has very few "good" whites), I can hope to have a somewhat reliable group of whites in 5 or 6 years - if the original birds I start up with are of good quality, and I get a few more birds from outside to compliment the family tree.


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

get some nice grizzled racing Homers and start breeding them together. you will get a few whites or nearly white out of them. They can be your start.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

humm why would you import 10 -20 fertile eggs which would cost -100 - $200 when you can just import 2 pairs that can be in that money range and start of breeding from those 2 pairs.
Also how sure are you that the egg will not get damage? Have you imported eggs before and it works out?

My suggestion: import 2 birds, 1 recessive white cock and 1 recessive white hen. Yes Dennish kuhn has white racers and many other white birds that can race and home really well. Dont have to buy his best bird that $ a lot. you can get his other white birds that are in the $60-below range. so lets say you will import $60 bird 1+ $60 bird 2 +$100 for shipping/handling cost = $120.

Okay now what you will do is breed the white cock birds you imported with one or your best racer hen. Every round of babies you got from from them will all carries the recessive white genes. Next, pair one of their offspring (the cock one)with the white hen you imported. 
There you go, u will get all white birds that can race and have good homing ability. All babies they produce will be white because both parent have the recessive white gene.

here is a link the Dennis http://www.whiteracers.20m.com/photo_10.html

import this cock http://www.whiteracers.20m.com/images/au_07_stp_3552.jpg

and this hen http://www.whiteracers.20m.com/images/au_12_aa_38339.jpg


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

sev3ns0uls said:


> humm why would you import 10 -20 fertile eggs which would cost -100 - $200 when you can just import 2 pairs that can be in that money range and start of breeding from those 2 pairs.
> Also how sure are you that the egg will not get damage? Have you imported eggs before and it works out?
> 
> My suggestion: import 2 birds, 1 recessive white cock and 1 recessive white hen. Yes Dennish kuhn has white racers and many other white birds that can race and home really well. Dont have to buy his best bird that $ a lot. you can get his other white birds that are in the $60-below range. so lets say you will import $60 bird 1+ $60 bird 2 +$100 for shipping/handling cost = $120.
> ...



The problem with that is, the birds themselves will cost minimum $120. Then the cost to ship them to Bellingham, Washington another $100. Then the cost to import the birds, easily $250 for 2 birds. So the cost will reach over $300 easily for just 1 pair. 

When I could buy say 20 eggs for $250- $300, and get them shipped to Bellingham for a low cost (eggs don't weigh that much). And then I would be personally driving the eggs over the border. 

So there isn't much room for the eggs to get destroyed (obviously they will be packaged well and will not be able to move. Plus it will all be express delivery in order to guarantee fresh eggs. 

So for $400, what would be the cost to bring a pair over, I can potentially have 20 birds, even 10 would be better. And theres no saying the pair I buy would be better than any of the 20 babies. The babies might be equally as good if coming from a reputable seller.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

20 eggs!... You may talk someone into letting the pairs lay an extra one last round and send the eggs to you, but collecting and packing the eggs and going down to the post to ship them , you may not get allot of takers. I'm sure they rather sell you a pair of birds or two, which in my opinion would be less money in the long run. I have shipped eggs, they did not hatch, both times, so you see you would spend allot of money betting they would hatch after being shipped, which is hard on eggs, when you could have actual birds, that would breed for you right at home, two pair , maybe not at one time, but over time would give you young to count on, then pair those two pair's offspring, I think you would either be even In the money or ahead that way, instead of hoping on eggs. and if nothing hatched because of the shipping issue, you would be out all that money you put into getting the eggs.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

well how are you going to find a breeder who will have 10+ eggs of guarantee white hatchly birds that are ready to import out that are from a strain of racer? 

It just my opinion that i rather have live birds deliver to me even it cost a little more rather then putting my luck on the eggs. *(lolz, just ask yourselves this question; what happen if the breeder shipped you infertile eggs?)*

so you decide:
spending $300 for 2 lives white birds *(Guarantee to produce you babies and can even breed with your other birds)*

or

spending $200 for a clutch of non-guarantee hatching eggs. *(But what if non of the eggs hatch? will you spent another $200 for another clutch of non-guarantee hatching eggs again )*

the choice is your.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I guess there is some logic in your answers. Only thing is, that 1 pair I import would have to be one good pair, emphasis on the good. If it costs $300 (more like $400) for 1 pair to get them from the US to Canada, they would have to be proven breeders for me to pull the trigger because spending that kind of money on pigeons is something I need to make sure is in my budget.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

http://poultrycommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?8823-Need-advice-on-shipping-fertile-eggs

After reading the posts these guys made, the hatch rate doesn't seem too bad?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Did a little research on importing/exporting birds. This link helped a lot:

http://pigeonfanciers.ca/border_robertson.html


Basically, as long as the birds have been vaccinated for PMV, get a vet on the US side to inspect the birds, and then get the federal papers. 

I would be willing to do this if I was spending money on at least 6 pairs-8 pairs. If they're good birds, I wouldn't mind bringing in live birds.


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

I get chicken and quail eggs shipped in all the time. hatch rates aren't very good due to the stress of shipping. Pigeon eggs are much more fragile than the chicken and quail eggs.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Revolution Lofts said:


> Did a little research on importing/exporting birds. This link helped a lot:
> 
> http://pigeonfanciers.ca/border_robertson.html
> 
> ...


start shopping for birds.. in the fall would of been a good time..allot are willing to part with some of their breeders they no longer need for that next years breeding program.. have you researched Canada well enough for birds?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I probably will end up just waiting till fall. Might be moving soon to another residential property, but this new one has a bigger backyard and its more secluded. So hopefully I don't have any bad neighbors! 

I did some research in Canada and as far as I can tell, the only pure white homers out there have been bred for white dove releases and they don't home that well. I was lucky enough to buy 3 pairs from a guy who had all 6 birds fly from Mainland BC to Vancouver Island, which is a span of around 90 kilometers (approx), half of which is water. So if they can find their way home on water, I think I might have some good ones in that bunch. 

A few other pairs of mine are older birds, so I'm hoping that I'm getting some of the more original stuff (before the selecting processes disappeared due to them being bred for dove releases). And the rest of the birds are descendants of those original birds.

So I have 15 pairs of white homers and 3 extra hens, and through a lot of selective breeding, I think I could come out with a family of whites over the span of 3-4 years, which can come back home from 100 miles. Maybe not in the fastest time, but fast enough and reliably (fewer losses).


And as far as I know, no one races whites in Canada. There are a bunch of people with grizzle birds, but no pure whites being raced or bred for the purpose of racing and not dove releases. 

So I was hoping if say some of my pairs I have now turn out to be good, I can acquire more from those fanciers I bought these ones from, and then test them as well. When I have 8-10 reliable pairs, I could bring in birds from the States to bring in new/better blood, and I could come up with 200 mile birds?


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Revolution Lofts said:


> I probably will end up just waiting till fall. Might be moving soon to another residential property, but this new one has a bigger backyard and its more secluded. So hopefully I don't have any bad neighbors!
> 
> I did some research in Canada and as far as I can tell, the only pure white homers out there have been bred for white dove releases and they don't home that well. I was lucky enough to buy 3 pairs from a guy who had all 6 birds fly from Mainland BC to Vancouver Island, which is a span of around 90 kilometers (approx), half of which is water. So if they can find their way home on water, I think I might have some good ones in that bunch.
> 
> ...


Dis-regarding the color of the birds you have .... you have the same basic problem of any other fancier who has birds that origiante from strictly short distance bloodlines.

You need to breed the pairs you have, raise a team of babies (around 20 would be good).

once they are lofted in and routing around the loft real good. start training them out. start slowly one to two mile jumps to begin with (remember these are unproven bloodlines) then after you reach say 20 miles.

Start spreading the distance out, but still go slowly. from 20 miles go to 25, then to 30, ect. till you reach say 50 miles.

Now spread it out again, from 50 mi go to 60, then 65, then 70, ect. till you hit 80-100 miles (your choice). 

Now you have birds left that know their way home from the 100 mile mark. 

OK now its time to really start testing their homing abilities from the first group (don't give up on me yet, even if you only have a handfull left at this point). now we go from 110 miles to 120, to 140, to 160 ect. out to two hundred. Anything you have left at this point can now take on 50 miles jumps. out to however far you wish to take them.

Even with weak homing abilities anything you have left will be able to home (from the first group)

While you were training your first group out , you should have also been raising a second group from your original breeders. again once you have 20 or so youngsters that are ranging good around your loft. begin training them exactly the way you trained the first group.

IF the spacing is right your now training two groups out at the same time. one short distance tossed, the other to longer distances. 

It will take time but eventually you will be able to begin breeding strictly out of birds that have all been flow to the 100 to 200 mile mark (pick your distance) 

You will find that the youngsters out of these birds will be able to take longer jumps in the training schedule as they are beginging to inherit better homing abilities from their parents. 

It will take time and patience (something the good lord did not give me a lot of) but over several generations of training and selective breeding you will find out who your best original parents are (its simple their youngsters will be the ones who are able to complete the training).

You will eventually be breeding out of proven birds that have completed whatever distance you set as your end goal.

Good luck!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

WHITE is just a color a mask if you will. Take any of your GOOD colored birds Prefure HENS over white cock. Raise those young birds train them out. Put the best back over White the next year White Cock over the best mismarked/ pied hens And pied cocks over white hens repeat this down the line You will have solid whites that perform better. . AND if you have any grizzle hens NOW put them over a white cock and you WILL get a few whites first year. Bringing in eggs You have to not only get them in good BUT have the pairs down on eggs near the same lay time. PLUS AS lawman pointed out raise and train your whites select the best and build from there.KEEP good breeding records For future refurence . AND as you KNOW there sure are many good RACE birds in CANADA. Check and you may just be surprised. Just as there are many good SHOW birds there.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks for the advice lawman and re lee. Good advice and will be keeping it in mind.

I might go pick up some more pairs of whites. If I get 3 cocks and 2 more pairs, I will have a total of 20 breeding pairs of whites. 

In a perfect world, the first round would produce 40 babies. So I'm sure a few, at least 5 would make it out to 100 miles as some of the breeders I have, have already flown over water, 80-90 km's tosses, etc. 

If I do a lot of selective breeding, and import a few good birds from say Dennis Kuhn, or even use my own coloured birds (who are good birds) in the breeding program to produce pieds, and then mating them back to whites, eventually taking the colour out of the birds again - I should be able to work out a consistent family of whites.


I will be racing my coloured birds but these whites will just be a side project for me in hopes of developing a good family of whites. 

The coloured birds would be trained like any racing pigeons (hard, difficult tosses - no baby steps). The whites I'll be a lot more lenient towards, for the first few years at least. 

Should be a fun project!


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Revolution Lofts said:


> Thanks for the advice lawman and re lee. Good advice and will be keeping it in mind.
> 
> I might go pick up some more pairs of whites. If I get 3 cocks and 2 more pairs, I will have a total of 20 breeding pairs of whites.
> 
> ...


Good luck with your project, I'm doing something very similar I'm picking up 8 pure whites to use as my base breeding stock and I'll be mixing in several of my white grizzles to boost the gene pool. 

Then as re lee said I'll take the best flying pure whites out of the pairings and breed them back in till I'm able to get them out to the middle and long distance races. My white grizzles are already out to the 350, although my darker grizzles seem to be able to fly the distance with faster speeds. 

I may even cross in the dark grizzles and my long distance colored birds after I'm able to get the whites out to the middle distance.

Keep in touch it will be interesting to compare notes on how were able to progress with our individual projects.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Sounds good! Really looking forward to this project (along with racing, developing a nice family of whites that can fly competitively would be great!)


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## Berni G (6 mo ago)

Revolution Lofts said:


> To some point, I want the whites to be good enough to enter in local races at least. I don't really want to race whites in one loft races or any races with thousands of birds. I just want to have a consistent family of whites that can fly competitively with the coloured pigeons at the local level (Around 500-700 pigeons every race, which isn't too bad).
> 
> I will still continue to breed, train, race, etc the coloured racers because I also want some good coloured birds.
> 
> ...


I Like your idea and doing the same. May be we have same thinking !


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