# Canker again?



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Two weeks ago I stopped treating a 3 week old baby rock pigeon for canker (gave it 25mg of Meditrich for 7 days). Everything seemed fine since then, although the droppings were still watery. Two days ago the sound of the squeaking changed to a sort of gurgling sound sometimes. Last night it ate as usual, but this morning could not eat or drink water, although it was hungry and thirsty. It squirmed a lot so I could not check the inside of the mouth. The poop was normal, but had lots of creamy yellowish stuff with it. 

There's a lot of mucous in the mouth and it keeps on opening and closing it. I had to forcefeed it with another dose of Meditrich mixed with a little bit of food. Everytime it swallows, the chest area puffs in and out (best way to descripe). It drank a little bit of water.

Did the canker came back, or was it never cured in the first place? I had the pigeon outside 3 days ago for the first time in 4 weeks, could the stress from that experience have caused the canker to flare up again? Should I keep on giving the Meditrich, medicine will have to be posted to me.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Marina B said:


> Two weeks ago I stopped treating a 3 week old baby rock pigeon for canker (gave it 25mg of Meditrich for 7 days). Everything seemed fine since then, although the droppings were still watery. Two days ago the sound of the squeaking changed to a sort of gurgling sound sometimes. Last night it ate as usual, but this morning could not eat or drink water, although it was hungry and thirsty. It squirmed a lot so I could not check the inside of the mouth. The poop was normal, but had lots of creamy yellowish stuff with it.
> 
> There's a lot of mucous in the mouth and it keeps on opening and closing it. I had to forcefeed it with another dose of Meditrich mixed with a little bit of food. Everytime it swallows, the chest area puffs in and out (best way to descripe). It drank a little bit of water.
> 
> *Did the canker came back*, or *was it never cured in the first place?* I had the pigeon outside 3 days ago for the first time in 4 weeks, *could the stress from that experience have caused the canker to flare up again? Should I keep on giving the Meditrich, medicine will have to be posted to me.*



It does sound like the baby still has canker and probably an internal variety. It could be that the dose wasn't strong enough to knock it down.I would give the baby 50mg, once a day for 5-7 days.
Stress certainly can bring on an infection. Until you get the medicine support the baby with food and warmth. 
Is there any way you can have a throat culture done?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Marina B said:


> Two weeks ago I stopped treating a 3 week old baby rock pigeon for canker (gave it 25mg of Meditrich for 7 days). Everything seemed fine since then, although the droppings were still watery. Two days ago the sound of the squeaking changed to a sort of gurgling sound sometimes. Last night it ate as usual, but this morning could not eat or drink water, although it was hungry and thirsty. It squirmed a lot so I could not check the inside of the mouth. The poop was normal, but had lots of creamy yellowish stuff with it.
> 
> There's a lot of mucous in the mouth and it keeps on opening and closing it. I had to forcefeed it with another dose of Meditrich mixed with a little bit of food. Everytime it swallows, the chest area puffs in and out (best way to descripe). It drank a little bit of water.
> 
> Did the canker came back, or was it never cured in the first place? I had the pigeon outside 3 days ago for the first time in 4 weeks, could the stress from that experience have caused the canker to flare up again? Should I keep on giving the Meditrich, medicine will have to be posted to me.


He should be treated for 7-14 days. If he's full grown, I would give him 50mg a day.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Thanks, will continue with the Meditrich. Pigeon not fully grown yet, weighs about 150 g. Should I continue with a third of a 100 mg tablet for the next 2 weeks?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeast infections can look a lot like canker too, and they produce a lot of mucous. If you can look in the mouth, you might see white plaques. Can you get hold of Nystatin or Nilstat from a drug store? I would treat for yeast as a precaution. Sometimes antibiotics can inflame a yeast infection.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Yeast infections can look a lot like canker too, and they produce a lot of mucous. If you can look in the mouth, you might see white plaques. Can you get hold of Nystatin or Nilstat from a drug store? I would treat for yeast as a precaution. Sometimes antibiotics can inflame a yeast infection.


Good idea, Bella. I was thinking the same thing after I posted. I'm glad you thought of it.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Checked on him this morning. The mucuous was less, there's definitely something in the mouth. And it seems as if the bird does not know how to eat and drink. Picks up the porridge in the mouth (feeding very liquid Pronutro) but then can't move it to the back of the mouth to swallow. It's now 36 hours since the last decent meal. Forcefeeding with a syringe is a nightmare, should I just continue with that? Can I treat with Nystatin and Meditrich at the same time? How much Nystatin for a 150g bird? I'm so scared this one is going to starve to death before my eyes, seems hungry the whole time, but loses interest in trying to eat. I can't smell anything bad, but the droppings still have the yellow foaming in it.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

At three weeks old it old enough to feed her also with defrosted peas. 

_Here are some prewritten feeding instruction...

You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas make the crop feel lumpy and squishy._


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Charis; thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it heaps!

Marina, You can give up to 0.25ml of Nilstat twice per day to a bird that size. The dosage is kind of flexible because it doesn't get absorbed by the bird's system exactly.It basically acts against the yeast that it touches, without the body absorbing it, if that makes sense. So you won't overdose.Yeast infection is very serious & deadly, so I suggest getting the Nystatin ASAP. She might have picked up yeast infection from the formula, so if you continue feeding this way, you may need to continue using Nilstat until she's eating solid food. 

You can treat for canker at the same time as yeast. But the Medtrich is an antibiotic, so its going to inflame the yeast infection, if one exists. When I strongly suspect a severe yeast infection personally, I would stop antibiotics for 24 hours and just give Nilstat a chance to work. If the bird responded to this, then I would continue the Nilsat every day after antibiotics are given, for ten days. Or I might stop the antibiotics altogether.

Regarding feeding, its much easier to hand feed solid food. Most members here hand feed defrosted peas as per Charis's directions (I think its about 50 per sitting). I'm not experience with feeding baby birds though- Charis is the person I listen to for advice about that.

EDIT. Sorry Dima, didn't see your post until I had already posted mine. Great directions and advice!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yellow foaming droppings sounds a lot like yeast to me.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

There is a big reddish lump in the throat, I can see it from the outside. So it must be canker? Breathing is fine, but the lump is definitely affecting the swallowing and the sounds bird is making. It scoops up liquid food in the mouth, but then shakes the head and all the food is out again. Is already getting weaker. I was such a fool, some of the canker signs were there like liquid droppings and excessive water drinking, but otherwise the bird was fine. And I think it's too late now, but will try and get some medicine into him.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

This is the lump that worries me, it looks like the trachea is swollen. The bird ate a little bit tonight and is now trying to clean itself. Whenever it gets a bit of food down, the area around this lump expands and contracts again. Tomorrow is Monday, will contact the pharmacy for the Nystacin.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Marina,

That swelling area is located right at the bird's crop and therefore would likely be something mechanical rather than bacterial or fungal. One possibility is a bolus, that is some food has collected into a hardened mass for whatever reason. Another possibility is a tumor.

You could try to get a few drops of vegetable oil down the throat and try massaging the lump between your fingers to see if you can break it up. If it remains intact it may be a tumor and you are going to need a vet to open the crop and remove it.

By the way a bird's fecal and urinary output are located at the same place, so the yellow foam you are looking at may well be a sign that the bird is starving because it can not get food through its digestive tract.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Could it be sour crop?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Fungal infections and canker can both cause sour crop (which can look like a lump in the crop).

These are rather common problems in pigeons, so I suggest treating for these before worrying about rare untreatable illnesses.

I wouldn't wait another day for the nystatin, personally.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

First off, yes, you can give metronidazole and nystatin together.

This lump looks more like it is in the trachea than the crop, to me -- at least what I can tell from the photo -- no wonder the poor bird is having trouble eating. As others have said, both yeast and canker can cause swellings/blockages in the crop (or throat). Yeast can actually cause the crop membranes to thicken and seal together. 

If you can manage to syringe feed, I would continue that -- sounds like the bird needs some nutrition -- and also if you could post a pic of the droppings, that would also be helpful. 

If this is a yeast infection, it's pretty severe. You don't happen to have any diflucan do you? (Or a doc who could prescribe it to you, perhaps?) Diflucan is a pretty safe systemic antifungal and is a wonder drug for severe yeast (in humans and birds!) . If you can get the human variety of it, someone can help you figure out how to dose it for the bird...


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Here's a photo of the poop this morning. The bird ate a little bit without forcing, and the lump seems smaller! The yellow in the poop (which is now much less) was there from that first morning it did not want to eat, so it could not have been from starvation, cause it was eating fine till that morning.

Another thing I did not mention: when I got the bird 5 weeks ago, there were no feathers on the crop area and it was sort of reddish. I can still see the skin on the crop, but maybe that's cause the feathers are bit dirty there and sticking together.

Thanks for all the info, think I must continue with the Meditrich and the Nystacin. Have not started with the Nystacin yet, pharmacy opens at 8'o clock.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That looks very, very much like the droppings I've seen with canker. Yeast tends to be sort of foamy looking -- almost frothy or cottage cheesy -- in my experience. I'd still do the Nystatin, since the bird will be on antibiotics for a while yet. 

It's possible that you have a strain of canker that isn't responding fully to the metronidazole (I believe that is the ingredient in meditrich) -- we had some strains in this area that seemed pretty impervious to metronidazole, and they responded much better to carnidazole (spartrix). If longer treatment doesn't resolve the problem, then I'd consider adding another canker drug to the mix. There are several drugs available -- and often if one doesn't work, another will.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, and yes, feather loss in the beak and crop area can definitely be caused by canker. 

I tend to wash them up a bit after hand feeding -- the messiness can irritate the skin further if it is already irritated.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Thanks. There's definitely a big improvement. Even flew to me this morning, cause it was so hungry. It started improving before I gave it the first dose of Nystacin. I will continue with the Meditrich for another 11 days (it's now the 3rd day) and if that does not help, will get the Spartix. Should I continue with the Nystacin? I've got it in the fridge, so it's available if I need it.

Thanks for all the info. I almost lost hope on Sunday, but now I'm positive this one will make it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Since antibiotics and formula feeding are both likely to cause yeast infections, I'd go ahead and use the Nystatin, personally ... I generally use it preventively if I have a bird that is on antibiotics. 

Nystatin is incredibly safe -- it doesn't absorb into the system at all, it just treats on contact. It certainly won't hurt to use it.

SO VERY glad to hear your little one is on the mend -- definitely sounds like a recurrence of the canker. Some strains of canker are really hard to eradicate, and may require a combination of drugs. I suspect this little one had a lot of canker internally as well as what was visible.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Marina B said:


> Thanks. There's definitely a big improvement. Even flew to me this morning, cause it was so hungry. It started improving before I gave it the first dose of Nystacin. I will continue with the Meditrich for another 11 days (it's now the 3rd day) and if that does not help, will get the Spartix. Should I continue with the Nystacin? I've got it in the fridge, so it's available if I need it.
> 
> Thanks for all the info. I almost lost hope on Sunday, but now I'm positive this one will make it.


For some reason, I was under the impression this was a younger baby and that is why you were only giving 25mg of meditrich. But seeing that you've had this youngster for 5 weeks, I think maybe you were just under-dosing and stopped too soon. I would continue as suggested. I would also give him at least 50mg of meditrich daily.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I put some Aloe vera on the lump and masaged it a bit. Can a canker lump really be rock hard? It feels as if this lump has 2 sharp corners at the bottom and I can actually see the skin moving over the one corner. Can a bird so young swallow something so large? I guess the size must be 1 x 2 cm! I hope not, cause I don't think we have vets in this area that will be able to remove it. He ate a bit this afternoon, but kept on shaking the head so all the food falls out again. The crop is empty as well.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Couple of hours later.....crop is full of food. It ate very well, I suppose I'm just being paranoid. Will continue with treatment and give feedback in ten days.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Canker lesions can get very hard when they dry up -- but I haven't ever seen them do quite what you are describing... maybe someone else has seen it, though. Does the lump seem smaller at all today?

Glad the bird is eating well -- I hope it continues!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its great to see a decent dropping coming out, that means the crop is still working- thanks for posting it!

Regarding the dose of metronidazole, I use the Avian Veterinary formulary, which is posted up on the web at the university of Minnesota Vet school here:
http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html#Metronidazole

For birds, the dose of metronidazole is 50mg per kilo body weight, once per day -translated, that makes the dosage around 15mg or less per day for an immature pigeon, under 350 grams weight. A dose of 25mg per day (which Marina B gave for 7 days) is higher than recommended, but still safe (its safe up to 200mg per kilogram body weight, but can cause regurgitation at higher doses)

I personally use about 12mg per bird metronidazole for canker and it has cleared up canker infections in many birds, so I have faith in the recommended doses above.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This seems to be one of those ongoing debates, regarding metronidazole dosing -- some formularies recommend much lower doses than others -- rather radically different recommendations, in fact. 

And. it also seems that some folks have had great success with the lower doses, whereas others have not, and some have had to combine canker medications to fully clear an infection.

Hopefully a longer course of treatment with the current dosing does the trick. If the canker recurs after that, then my suggestion would be to try a different med altogether. 

We were seeing canker around here, for a while, that was very resistant to metronidazole -- but carnidazole would clear it quickly. Other areas have strains that are just the opposite -- etc.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

This morning there were a lot of droppings (at least the bird is getting enough food) and the colour is more brownish (resembles the food I'm giving it). It ate very well today. I was thinking: About 10 days ago I started feeding the bird the wholeweat Pronutro (which has lots of added bran) cause both shops in our small town ran out of the plain Pronutro. Maybe this bran caused a blockage on the opening of the crop? I've been looking at diagrams of bird anatomy on the internet. Maybe this blockage is pushing the trachea forward and what I'm feeling is actually the rings on the trachea?

I sifted the pronutro and removed most of the bran this morning. But maybe it had canker all along (some of the signs were there), so I will continue with treatment. At least for now the bird is getting enough food, although it must be very uncomfortable with this blockage.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

minimonkey said:


> This seems to be one of those ongoing debates, regarding metronidazole dosing -- some formularies recommend much lower doses than others -- rather radically different recommendations, in fact.
> 
> And. it also seems that some folks have had great success with the lower doses, whereas others have not, and some have had to combine canker medications to fully clear an infection.


So true. Something I'm not so clear on myself,due to lack of experience with resistant canker, is when faced with resistant canker, is better to swap to other meds like ronidazole/spartrix, or better to increase the dose of the med to which the canker is resistant (or suspected)? I would think swapping meds is the better strategy in theory, but in practice do people just up the dose of metronidazole until it works? Maybe that's partly where these higher doses come from-ie for some people, maybe these doses are what it takes?

Anyway just wondering, really.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Marina B said:


> I sifted the pronutro and removed most of the bran this morning. But maybe it had canker all along (some of the signs were there), so I will continue with treatment. At least for now the bird is getting enough food, although it must be very uncomfortable with this blockage.


Hey Marina, thats good! Your pigeon's crop is still working and she's on meds now, so this is very good. I'm glad to hear the droppings are good too.

Its hard for me to really comment on the lump; I can't make out if its just some normal part of the anatomy, or whether its a canker nodule etc. 

Do you have access to ronidazole at all, just in case of resistant canker?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Here's a better picture. I cleaned the breast area and the bird was loving it. Was dosing very relaxed in the sun. The lump still the same size. As you can see on the photo, the skin on the crop area looked like this since I got the bird. Yes, I'm sure I can get that medicine, but it will have to be posted to me. Is that the best option, won't Spartrix be better?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Marina...as most strains of canker, there are over 35 strains, have become resistant to the medications that have worked in the past.
Where I am located, spartrix is the least effective. It does work well in combination with metronidazole in cases that are quite severe. Spartrix also works well made into a paste and applied directly onto visible canker on the face and in the mouth and throat while used with metronidazole.

Here, I have found the old dosing recommendations aren't adequate either. Still, I wouldn't give 50mg to a 200 gm pigeon because of the possible side effects, but I would to a pigeon that is 400-450 gms.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This picture shows the lump much better -- I was also wondering if it was just a normal part of the anatomy, but in this picture, it doesn't look normal at all. 

I'm on pretty the same page as Charis regarding metro dosing -- I tend to go with 50(ish) grams for an adult bird, more like 30 for a youngster or one that is very ill and underweight -- though I do know that others have had success with the lower doses.

In terms of meds -- I've had the best luck of all with Spartrix, but as Charis said, this varies by region. Ronidazole is a good med, and probably the best tolerated of all the major canker meds. It's pretty much a guess as to what is going to work with your bird. 

I keep Ronidazole, Spartrix (carnidazole) and Metronidazole all on hand, for this very reason.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Spartrix is the least effective canker med in my area as well. I have ronidazole and metronidazole and both have been great.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Its great to see a decent dropping coming out, that means the crop is still working- thanks for posting it!
> 
> Regarding the dose of metronidazole, I use the Avian Veterinary formulary, which is posted up on the web at the university of Minnesota Vet school here:
> http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html#Metronidazole
> ...


I use the 'Medical Formulary' at www.pigeoncote.com for all my dosing. http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html Which gives a dose of "50-100mg/bird daily for 4-6 days". I could see where this would be very confusing because it doesn't list a weight. So that's why I've been giving 62.5mg (1/4 of a 250mg tab) to an adult, and half of that to a youngster for the past 7 years. But I use it for 7-10 days. It does the trick, I've never had any side effects, and I've never had to add any other meds to it.
All the research I've read from leading vets on pigeons is that the dose ranges from 25mg to 125mg 'mega dose'. But I prefer to play it safe and go in the middle.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I weighed the pigeon tonight after feeding and it weighs about 175 g. The lump looks a bit better, but the dropping sort of an olive green colour without any yellow or white. In general, the behaviour of the bird is also better, and it started "talking" to me again which is a good sign.

I've ordered the Ronidazole and also probiotics. I was told to add 5gram of the ronidazole to a liter of water, but this will be a bit difficult to give to the bird, cause I replace the water almost daily and it drinks only a little every day. I think I must for now stick to the meditrich. I'm giving it 25mg a day (have to quarter the tablet so it might be a bit more or less) and also the nystatin 0.25 ml twice daily. That will be now for another 9 days, then it will be 14 days of treatment. Do I then start on day 15th with the probiotics? How much and for how long?

Now if the bird gets to much antibiotics, what will the signs be? Just want to get all the facts for in case. Thanks for all the helpfull information!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Glad to hear there is some improvement 

Given the weight of your bird, I think your meditrich dosing is good. 

Keep an eye on the droppings -- the olive green color isn't abnormal when a bird is on formula, but the lack of visible urates might indicate dehydration. If that keeps up, you may need to hydrate the bird a bit. 

A true overdose of metronidazole, ronidazole, etc. can cause seizures or paralysis -- generally they are reversible if the medication is stopped. I don't think you are in any danger of that happening -- you aren't using super high doses of the med. 

The most common ill effect from antibiotics is yeast overgrowth, which the nystatin will help prevent. 

You can''t really overdose on nystatin, since it isn't absorbed into the body. 

Yes, start the probiotics right after treatment. (It isn't harmful if you give them during treatment, but antibiotics pretty much kill off the beneficial bacteria so it isn't effective.) 

I'd give the probiotics for at least two weeks -- maybe more -- I actually give all my birds probiotics on a regular basis. What kind did you get?

If you do need to use the ronidazole, you can mix up the water according to the directions, and use the medicated water as the base for your formula.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I use the 'Medical Formulary' at www.pigeoncote.com for all my dosing. http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html Which gives a dose of "50-100mg/bird daily for 4-6 days".


Hi Waynette,

Like I mentioned earlier, I think this pigeoncote formulary has some errors, which have been picked up by various members here over the years. The metronidazole dose is one of them. Some of the pigeoncote doses seem to be directly copied from the University of minnesota's Veterinary formulary (or some other formulary), and pigeoncote have incorrectly changed the dose `BID' to `per bird'. Seems like a basic human error, by someone who didn't understand `BID'. Just the fact that this formulary states dosages as `per bird' seems dangerous to me, as pigeons weigh anything from 100 grams to 1 kg.

Anyway, just saying in case you hadn't realised. Your dosages for metronidazole would be safe anyway, but if you are giving a medicine that has little or no safety margin, just double check the dosages before using pigeoncote as a guide, especially if they give `per bird' dosages.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Marina B said:


> I've ordered the Ronidazole and also probiotics. I was told to add 5gram of the ronidazole to a liter of water, but this will be a bit difficult to give to the bird, cause I replace the water almost daily and it drinks only a little every day. I think I must for now stick to the meditrich. I'm giving it 25mg a day (have to quarter the tablet so it might be a bit more or less) and also the nystatin 0.25 ml twice daily. That will be now for another 9 days, then it will be 14 days of treatment. Do I then start on day 15th with the probiotics? How much and for how long?


Hi Marina, There's some possibility of this being a case of resistant canker since you have given a fairly hefty dose of medtrich already. 25mg per day is a big dose for a 175 gram bird. So it might be good to consider swapping to the ronidazole, if the pigeon isn't improving. Just keep it in mind as an option anyway.

Do you have any more information about the ronidazole, say the concentration or percentage of ronidazole per gram of the powder? I use ronidazole, but the instructions say 3 grams per 2 liters, so mine must be a different concentration.

Minimonkey's idea to make up the ronidazole water, and use it to mix up formula and leave as drinking water is excellent. For her weight, she'd need around 15-20 mls total of the ronidazole solution per day.

If you can provide me with more details about your ronidazole, I can help make an oral dose that you can give with formula too.


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

I really really hate canker !!!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Amen, Sport! Don't we all !?!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

So the urates in the droppings: is that now the birds urine? Definitely drinking enough water, I spent some time with the bird this morning and we're having a heatwave and it drank water a couple of times. Droppings although very watery and olive green. Sometimes with the white, sometimes not. But an overall improvement: it started pecking seeds by itself, but can't eat them yet.

Hopefully the new medicine will arrive on Friday, and I'll let you know what the instructions are. Another question about pigeongrit: can I crush some blackmusselshells from the beach to be used as grit once bird starts eating seeds and how small must this be? Thanks.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Sorry to be confusing -- droppings consist of three parts: The feces, which is the solid greenish-to-browinish solid portion, the urates, which are the white parts, and actual urine, which is clear liquid. They all get mixed together somewhat, and usually what you end up with is a moist solid dropping, and a white cap on it. 

The urates are the result of digestion and metabolism of proteins in the bird's system, but they are passed through the kidneys. Sometimes a lack of visible urates can indicate dehydration. 

The urates in a healthy pigeon are bright white -- I mean rather stunningly white. A yellowish or a greenish tinge to them (regularly) indicates that something is off .... droppings while on formula are often soft, so it isn't that surprising if the urates mix in a bit with the rest of the dropping. 

Yellow urates are often present with canker.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The poop picture you posted showed very yellowed urates, which seems to support the diagnosis of canker. Other things can cause them, too -- anything that burdens the liver can cause a yellowing of them.

If the bird consistently lacks visible urates, it can be indicative of gout -- so that is something to take note of if it happens often.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hopefully, the continued canker treatment will solve the problem with the lump. 

I did notice something, earlier, that I thought might be worth mentioning, in the event that this doesn't resolve with continued canker treatment:

Aspergillosis 

Often mistaken for canker or tuberculosis. *The symptoms are a hard growth or lump in the windpipe,* gasping for breath, sneezing, coughing, nasal and throat discharges, diarrhoea, swollen joints or lameness. *Aspergillosis is hard and embedded into tissue and cannot be removed without excessive bleeding or pain to the bird. It also attacks the liver and spleen *where it may be revealed as white growths in autopsy.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The only symptoms the bird display of this illness, is the lump in the windpipe and the diarree. However I noticed today it's breathing with a slightly open mouth and is making clicking noises. This also points to canker? Tomorrow will be the 7th day on the Meditrich and hopefully the new stuff will arrive.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Did a bit of reading about this disease on the internet. Another symptom that the bird has, is the change of the voice. Apparently if the fungus manifests itself in the syrinx, there is a definite change of sound. But the bird has never come into contact with mouldy food or wet straw. Stays in a nice warm dry room, ventilation bit of a problem, can't leave the door or windows open. Bit paranoid now, apparently there's not a lot one can do about this disease.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, let's hope it is canker alone causing the problems. But if it is starting to have more respiratory problems, then it seems like there might be something else going on in addition to the canker. 

The open beak and the clicking can be from canker, but they can be from other things, too. 

The thing about Aspergillus is that it is everywhere in the environment. Most birds (people, other animals) don't get sick from it, but if the immune system is stressed already by another illness sometimes it can take hold. Moldy food, straw, etc. are one source of the fungus, but it is present in soil, air, etc. just about everywhere. Many buildings have some degree of it present in the walls, floors, etc. 

It can also grow on grain without being at all obvious -- low levels of it are pretty common in most grains. 

Is this bird a rescue? (I'm assuming it is?) -- if so, exposure to something might have happened before it was rescued. 

Aspergillus can be treated, but it doesn't always work. A systemic antifungal, often combined with localized treatment, can sometimes knock it out, if it isn't too widespread in the body. 

I don't want to freak you out about this, but it does seem like something to consider if the canker treatment isn't doing the trick.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

There sure are some scary diseases out there- I've freaked myself out in the past as well when I've been faced with a tough case & I started googling all the possible causes..

Just going on my own experiences, in spite of all the horrible things that can go wrong with a pigeon, something like 90% of my pigeon rescues respond to treatment for regular illnesses. And I've never once come across a case of Aspergillus, though I know its out there. 

Anyway, like Minimonkey said, its ok to me mindful of rare possibilities, and expand treatment to cover them if its possible. But also hold onto the hope that most lumps are caused by common illness that can be treated.

PS. the Pigeon has been with Marina since it was a 3 week old baby and kept in good conditions and hand fed. Its not the usual situation for Aspergillus to form, though of course anythings possible.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You know... I was just bathing one of my birds, whose throat and head feathers are damaged from a recent battle with canker and mites. 

Sopping wet, her throat (which is still a bit inflamed, but healing) looks pretty much like your bird's throat -- and her bone structure feels a lot like the "lump" you are describing. The lump on yours is more pronounced, but local inflammation could be causing that....

We don't usually see the front part of the tracheal structure in a feathered bird... but I am thinking perhaps what you are seeing/feeling is actually cartilege and bone, and is normal. 

Especially in a young or thin pigeon, I can see where this might look just like the photo. 

Now, the breathing issues are something that do need to be addressed, but I am thinking the lump may not be an abnormal growth at all....


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Ok, received the ronidazole 10%. According to the label, 5g to be mixed into 2 l of water for 3 to 5 days. In severe cases 5 to 8 days of treatment. The deposits in the throat should be moistened with the above mixture and 3 to 5 ml be given directly into the crop.

So what I will do, is make a fresh mixture of 5g to 2l of water every morning, and use that to mix into the bird's food for the day. I don't suppose heating the water a bit will destroy the good stuff in it. Is this also an antibiotic? I suppose I must continue with the Nystasin. 

The lump definitely seems smaller, but I am worried about the slightly open mouth when breathing and the clicking noise. Droppings still very watery. But the bird is eating fine.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Ronidazole is a lot like Flagyl -- it is mostly antiprotozoal in nature, but it does have some antibiotic properties too. I'd continue with the Nystatin -- birds who are being formula fed are fairly prone to getting yeast in general. 

I'm a little worried that you may have a bacterial infection along with the canker, though ... the respiratory distress is worrisome. Ronidazole won't take care of a bacterial infection -- and since the breathing got worse while on the meditrich, I am guessing that the respiratory problem isn't entirely from canker. 

How is the bird's breathing today?

Do you have any other meds on hand? (Other antibiotics?)


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm very glad to hear that the lump is smaller today -- that, at least, is a really good sign.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The bird is not struggling to breath, is just the clicking noises sometimes when it gets exited like before feeding. It disappears when the bird is very relaxed. The droppings is brown now, at least not green. Although it is very liquid, but that might be from the food. I'm not mixing in any seeds at the moment.

I mixed in 10ml of the ronidazole solution into the food, and will add another 10ml to the evening meal. Won't all these medicine do harm at the end of the day? I can get baytril, but shouldn't we wait a couple of days for the ronidazole to do the thing? Thanks for all the feedback, I appreciate it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, the clicking when excited might well be from the canker -- or, it might be nothing to worry about at all (they can click sometimes if excited or scared) -- is the open beak breathing still happening? That was more of a concern to me. particularly with the clicking too. 

If you put the bird's beak up to your ear and listen to its breathing, do you hear any rattling or clicking when it is relaxed? (You may end up with a beak in your ear if you do this!) 

The liquid droppings are probably from the formula -- that's common, and will probably disappear when you move to solid food. 

You can wait and see how the bird does with the ronidazole, but if it appears to be going downhill or not improving, I'd go ahead and order the Baytril. You may not even end up using it, but it is a good thing to have on hand if you keep or rescue birds ... and it is far better to have it and not end up needing it, than the other way round. 


These medications have their ups and downs, but unresolved canker will do a lot more damage than a long course of metro/ronidazole -- those are really safe drugs ... and likewise, and untreated bacterial infection can take a bird down really quickly. 

The Nystatin is not harmful in any way -- it doesn't ever enter the system of the bird -- it's a good and very safe way to prevent yeast overgrowth.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I've never had any problems mixing ronidazole with either Baytril or Sulfa meds myself. Often with my rescues, who are from the wild, I don't have time to `wait and see' so they get a few treatments at once. Canker med (metro or ronidazole) + Sulfa Antibiotic is my standard kind of treatment, then moving onto canker med + Baytril+ amprolium (amprolium given at another time of day). I mix in Nilstat after 5 days of treatment. I haven't had any probs with regurgitation so far.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I feel the same way, Bella -- I'd rather be safe and treat with antibiotics, if a bird is showing symptoms of a potential bacterial infection. I've given enough meds over the years that it no longer scares me to do it, though it did when I first started out. 

I respect that people don't care to medicate if there is an option not to do that, but with feral rescues, they are so often multiply infected ... one course of a broad spectrum antibiotic, canker and yeast treatment are almost always necessary. 

I have had regurgitation problems with spartrix (carnidazole) -- but not with any other meds. 

Oddly enough, I rarely need to use the sulfa meds -- coccidiosis is something I just don't see all that often.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Me too- I have regurgitation problems with Spartrix tablets. Spartrix is my third choice for canker anyway, but if I have to use it I crush it and mix it with maple syrup now. I've only done this a couple of times, but both times the bird was able to keep it down. 

The one other med I can't mix with the other meds is amprolium. Thats great you don't have much coccidia your way!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, it's rather surprising, really -- I'd expect to see coccidiosis a lot more often. What I do get rather frequently is the bacterial illnesses -- and too often, its paratyphoid.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thats really interesting, minimonkey. What a pain to have paratyphoid so common there; must be in the soil or something? Do you have a wild flock that comes to your house, or are your rescues from all over town?

I actually expect to see paratyphoid much more than I do where I live..we have the usual black rats, but here in Australia we also have many animals similar to rats, that are native marsupials. They are like rats with pouches, and some can glide between trees- amazing and beautiful animals. 

here you go, a picture:










Unlike rats, these are protected and cherished fauna, so there's not much you can do for the wild pigeons to protect from droppings from the rats, mice, and native marsupials. And yet the flock seems to have a good tolerance to salmonella- I wonder if maybe the constant exposure acts like a vaccine? Anyway we almost never get Salmonella in the pigeons. And canker has calmed right down too for some reason.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Thats really interesting, minimonkey. What a pain to have paratyphoid so common there; must be in the soil or something? Do you have a wild flock that comes to your house, or are your rescues from all over town?
> 
> I actually expect to see paratyphoid much more than I do where I live..we have the usual black rats, but here in Australia we also have many animals similar to rats, that are native marsupials. They are like rats with pouches, and some can glide between trees- amazing and beautiful animals.
> 
> ...


Oh wow....so cute  They sell them in the pet stores up here.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I could not hear any rattling sounds when I put my ear to its beak, but then I put my ear on its back and there was a sort of wettish "tsk" sound. The clicking, which happens when the mouth opens to breath is a bit louder as well.

The shop where I get my medicine from, states in their catalogue "can probably help with Baytril". Seems as if it is in liquid form. Now if they don't have baytril, what else would you recommend. They've also got medivital, trimethoprim/sulfa, avivet, entero-plus. I don't want to lose another day waiting for an answer. Weekend again, if I order on Monday, I will receive the goods by Wednesday.

Overall, the bird is much much better looking than the one I had a week ago. Weighed it again this afternoon after feeding, and its now 200g compared to the 175 the other day after feeding. Maybe that lump is part of the anatomy, it just became very obvious cause the bird could not eat a lot. Now with the crop full, it is much less obvious.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Marina B said:


> I could not hear any rattling sounds when I put my ear to its beak, but then I put my ear on its back and there was a sort of wettish "tsk" sound. The clicking, which happens when the mouth opens to breath is a bit louder as well.
> 
> The shop where I get my medicine from, states in their catalogue "can probably help with Baytril". Seems as if it is in liquid form. Now if they don't have baytril, what else would you recommend. They've also got medivital, trimethoprim/sulfa, avivet, entero-plus. I don't want to lose another day waiting for an answer. Weekend again, if I order on Monday, I will receive the goods by Wednesday.
> 
> Overall, the bird is much much better looking than the one I had a week ago. Weighed it again this afternoon after feeding, and its now 200g compared to the 175 the other day after feeding. * Maybe that lump is part of the anatomy, it just became very obvious cause the bird could not eat a lot. Now with the crop full, it is much less obvious*.


I was actually wondering that. If a bird is really thin, and the crop is empty, the trachea kind of protrudes out. If you stretch the head and neck upward (as if you were going to give them meds), it smooths out and you shouldn't feel any lumps.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I am beginning to suspect that the lump is the front part of the trachea, too -- with a very empty crop and no feathers in that area, plus the bird being thin, it might look like an abnormal lump. Even a little localized swelling from canker could cause it to look lumpier, I'd think.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Respiratory infections are a bit tricky in terms of deciding what meds to use -- a lot of different things can cause them.

I think Baytril is your best bet, antibiotic wise -- let's hope you can get it. 

I often go with doxycycline/tylosin for respiratory problems, as a first line of defense, but I'm not sure your meds store has that..or can get it.

Entero Plus is a probiotic and immune stimulant -- not an antibiotic. It would be good after treatment for supportive care. 

Avi-vet appears to be amoxicillin -- not a terrible choice, but not my first choice for respiratory problems.

I can't tell what is in the Medi-Vital -- I looked it up, and all I could find was "ultra broad spectrum antibiotic" -- who knows what that might be?

Trimethoprim/Sulfa will work against many respiratory infections. 

If you can't get the Baytril, I think the Trimethoprim/Sulfa would be my choice out of the meds you listed. 

If you are hearing wet noises when breathing, then treating sounds like a good idea.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella --

Those marsupials are SO cute!!!!!!!  OMG, those EYES!!!

As for the paratyphoid -- We have a flock that roosts on the roof of our building, but they are pretty healthy, generally. I've ended up with two of those over the past couple of years due to injuries (one was hit by a car, I think, and the other was a predator attack -- hawk or crow, probably -- she was a baby when it happened). Aside from the injuries, the birds were in surprisingly good shape, health wise. 

The birds I find with paratyphoid are mainly around the subway stations, which are pretty filthy. The birds drink from puddles and from the gutters on the roof of the station, which is no doubt home to rats and mice. Also the occasional parking garage pigeon, or freeway overpass pigeon, or dumpster diving street dweller -- again, rats and mice are the likely culprit. 

City dwelling pigeons don't have a very easy existence.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Pigeon was limping a bit today. I took a photo of the legs. Is the yellow line at the back of the leg supposed to be there? Does the joint look swollen? The bird prefers to sit rather than stand. Just worried about the lack of urates in the droppings. Droppings very watery, sometimes just a lot of water with very little solids in.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The limping (and sitting) is worrisome. It's hard to say much from the picture -- does the joint feel swollen to you? Do the joints on both legs look and feel the same, to you? 

The lack of visible urates may be nothing to worry about -- with formula fed birds, they often have runny droppings which can make the entire dropping look like mush .. but it is something to keep in the back of your mind, anyhow. If the droppings are mostly water, that's also a bit worrisome -- though very thin formula can sometimes do that. 

You might want to try a thicker formula or handfeeding seeds and see if that helps. 

Any progress on knowing if you can get Baytril? My gut feeling is that you do have a bacterial infection going on, most likely.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've ordered 10ml of Baytril, it will arrive on Wednesday. I was told to give the bird one drop in the morning and one drop in the evening, but would like to have more specific measurements and for how long as well.

Both feet looks the same to me, maybe he just hurt the left foot so have difficulty stepping on it. Spent a lot of time just sitting today with the feathers all fluffed up-really looking sick. The poop after the first feeding had lots of bubbles in it. I must say, I've handreared young birds before on the same formula, but their poop did not look as this one's does. Started adding some seeds as well, although if there's too many seeds, the bird won't eat the stuff. Lets hope the baytril will take care of whatever is going on. If you can let me know the measurements plse. Thanks.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Forgot to mention, at least the open mouth breathing has stopped. But the bird did not make a sound today.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Marina B said:


> Forgot to mention, at least the open mouth breathing has stopped. But the bird did not make a sound today.


Thats fantastic news! Well done, sounds like your treatment is starting to work.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Can you post the specifics of the Baytril you ordered? The liquids come in different strengths (different suspensions). 

I'd suggest a 14 day course of the Baytril -- that's enough to treat most of the potential problems, including paratyphoid. 

I'm glad the open mouth breathing has stopped -- that is definitely good news. Bubbly droppings, however, don't sound great -- it's good that you have something to compare them to, and can recognize that they look abnormal. 

Baytril is very broad spectrum, and it will treat a lot of the potential infections this bird might have, so there's a fairly good chance it will take care of the bowel problems (which could be a number of things.) It doesn't really address coccidiosis, but it is very effective against E Coli, which may well be the problem. 

Definitely keep up the Nystatin while the bird is on the Baytril -- it is a great drug, but it is very prone to causing yeast because it kills such a wide range of bacteria.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Now that you mention paratyphoid, I was looking at that on the internet. Bird did not eat a lot today, but drank A LOT of water. Will receive Baytril tomorrow and will let you know the details. Thanks.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Paratyphoid is a possibility -- it can cause joint swelling and lameness, intestinal problems, as well as respiratory problems and neurological problems. It's a disease I see fairly often in rescues. 

Paratyphoid birds often have very dark, vivid green droppings that are slimy and somewhat smelly --- your bird's droppings don't seem to fit that description, but that still doesn't entirely rule it out. 

Keep up the good work -- you're doing a great job with this little bird, and I hope you get the problems sorted out soon.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Got the baytril today. The label only says 1 ml per liter for 3-5 days. Now that does not help a lot! Bird did not eat anything today. Poop this afternoon was darkish brown, and now it's a yellow liquid. I hope it's not too late.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I just phoned the supplier of the Baytril, and he told me to administer 0.12ml in the morning and in the evening.

Now the yellow poop, obviously liver damage..... So strange, if you look at the bird sitting underneath the heat lamp, it does not look ill at all. Still alert to whats going on. It's now only the not eating, the limping, the excessive drinking and the yellow poops that's the symptoms. So obviously something must be very wrong inside that tiny body.

Had a look at PMV. Somewhere I've read that the virus can attack the kidneys and the only symptom then is the excessive water drinking and the kidneys can't retain the water to make urine and then it all just comes out as this blob of water with very little solids. But surely if it was some terrible disease, I would see a lot of sick pigeons around? There's about 10 of them in our palm tree and they all look very healthy.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This doesn't sound like PMV -- that usually presents as a lot of neurological difficulty (twisting head, walking in circles, that sort of thing), along with the very watery poops with few solids. 

My guess is that this is something like E-Coli, which can get into the joints and cause infection -- it can also cause get into the respiratory tract -- and it thrives in the GI system. It can grow in the crop. 

E Coli can show up as a secondary infection after canker -- that's pretty common. E Coli bacteria are naturally present in pigeons to a certain degree, but when they over grow, they can cause illness. 

Baytril is a good drug to treat E Coli, and will also address paratyphoid that should happen to be present. 

The yellow poops do indicate a likely strain on the liver, but not necessarily permanent damage. I'm hoping your little bird turns around quickly with the Baytril.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The little one is still alive, but definitely not improving. All the droppings today were just yellowish cream liquid. The bird vomited the food I forcefed over lunchtime and is not very keen on even drinking water. Altogether I already administered 3 times the baytril 12 hours apart. I stopped with the rodinazole 2 days ago, cause the bird actually started deteriorating when I started with that.

Can canker affect the liver and kidneys? I suppose the bird never got cured when I started with the first treatment 5 weeks ago. Could that have caused all the problems? Sorry just questions and questions........


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Marina,

Not sure if you're still giving Nilstat, but that will make the poops bright yellow. Its nothing to worry about.

Would you mind giving a quick recap on the antibiotics you'd used so far to treat this? Is Baytril the only antibiotic you've tried so far? Sorry that i lost track.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Checked on him this morning, and he must have died sometime during the night. I'm feeling so guilty and wondering if I might have given the bird too much medicine and that could have been the cause of the sudden liver failure. All in all the bird had the following: After having the bird for one week: 25 mg of meditrich for a week. 3 weeks later: 25mg of meditrich for a week (that first 2 days a bit more - confusion about the dosage), then switched to ronidazole for 4 days about 20 ml per day. And then I started with the baytril 0.12ml twice a day. But by then the bird already had yellow poops and was deteriorating.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, Marina --

I am so sorry to hear this! I really don't think the medication was the problem, at all. 

I suspect your little bird had a bacterial infection that was progressing, and that eventually took him down. Salmonella and Ecoli can both get into the internal organs. 

You did the best anyone could -- I know how heartbreaking this is.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm so sorry he didn't make it  I think you did all you could possibly do.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, thats so sad, I'm sorry to hear that! 

You gave him a really good course of anti canker meds, including the ronidazole for fighting resistant canker. If he's had canker that should have worked very well. I agree that in this case you were probably dealing with something other than canker, or as well as canker. Its not so easy to make the right choices in these cases, you need several families of of meds on hand, and the experience with using them. So what you did was about all a person can do...you took an educated guess, and you did the best with the resources you had. When you get more experienced, you might do things like treating for several illness at once, instead of one at a time, but that kind of thing takes a lot of guidance and time to learn. Anyway I'm sorry you lost him, it feels so bad doesn't it?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I had a terrible day, still thinking I gave the bird too much Ronidazole. I miss the little guy so much............. Thanks again for all the help and advice.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Marina, Do you want me to help you figure out for sure if there was too much ronidazole? When you said you gave 20ml per day, I didn't understand that. Maybe I can help alleviate your fears?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I believe Marina mixed up the ronidazole according to the directions for drinking water, and gave 20 mls of the medicated water per day, if I am understanding this all correctly.

That seems like a very safe dosage. 

I'm so sorry for your loss, Marina. It really leaves a hole in one's heart, doesn't it? 

I use much the same approach as Bella does with rescues -- I keep a stock of the basic pigeon meds on hand, and treat for multiple illnesses based on my best guess of what is likely to be present in any given bird... as Bella says, this takes time and guidance to learn, and is still never an exact science.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

minimonkey said:


> I believe Marina mixed up the ronidazole according to the directions for drinking water, and gave 20 mls of the medicated water per day, if I am understanding this all correctly.
> 
> That seems like a very safe dosage.
> 
> ...


I agree and do pretty much the same thing....treat for multiple things. Metronidazole is safe to give with a number of other meds. I also give a dose of pyrantel just in case there's roundworms. Roundworm infestation can weaken their system, allowing canker and bacterial infections take hold.
Again, I'm so sorry. I think you gave it your best.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

One very real possibility with this bird is that it had a viral illness -- there's a form of internal pox that can closely resemble canker, and it can kill pigeons -- especially young ones. If that is what the bird had, you wouldn't have been able to do much about it, since supportive care is really the only treatment for the pox virus. Sometimes one can achieve symptomatic relief, but that's about it. 

There are a number of viral illnesses that pigeons can get, and they are sometimes fatal -- particularly in youngsters. 

Please be assured you did the best you could -- you had quite a lot of experienced people chiming in on this one, and you followed the advice given by consensus. Without a necropsy, there's really no way to know what was ailing your little pigeon. 

I do know the heartbreak of losing a bird, when you are trying so hard to help it -- it comes with the territory of rehabbing ... but that doesn't make it any easier when it happens.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

For future reference, here are a couple of links about pox. I am referring to the so-called "wet pox" -- which doesn't always form visible sores except deep in the respiratory tract:

http://www.avianweb.com/fowlpox.html

http://msucares.com/poultry/diseases/disviral.htm


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

According to the leaflet that came with the ronidazole 10%, 5g to be mixed with 2 l water (daily requirement for 40 pigeons). I've worked out that's 10ml of powder to 2l of water. So obviously 5ml to 1l of water that I mixed every morning. But then they also mentioned in severe cases 3-5 ml of the above mixture to be given directly into the crop. I gave about 20 ml every day. 

Does not make sense. If an adult bird drinks about 40ml of the solution every day, why give only 3-5 ml directly into the crop? First mistake, I should have phoned the supplier to clarify things. The bird never showed any neurological signs or vomiting (only on the last day after being forcefed). On day 2 only the limping and being very quiet and loss of appetite.

Second mistake, I should have sticked to the Meditrich, the bird was improving on that. Only deteriorated when I started with the ronidazole. Third mistake, I should not have administered the Baytril, that must have done more damage to the liver. 

So ja, plenty of mistakes, just a pity this bird had to die.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think the suggestion of 3 to 5 mls directly in the crop is assuming that the bird will also drink medication in addition to that. Ronidazole is the safest of the canker drugs, and has a wide margin of error -- and the amount you gave was appropriate, given that the bird wasn't drinking on its own.

Honestly, Marina, I don't think you did anything wrong. I'm pretty sure there was something going on besides just the canker. It's very common for other infections to co-occur with canker. 

I commend your willingness to examine what you might have done wrong (we all need to do that, every time, so we keep learning) -- but sometimes, there just isn't any error to find.


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