# Pigeon covered in tar



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I was brought a little pigeon today which is covered in tar. The problem is, it is all caked in that stuff, from head to bottom, feet including.
I had one baby a few weeks back in similar condition, but not as bad. This one is really, really bad. I tried the cinchilla dust and then a dawn bath and it got only worse. The tar is still stuck on it and now I have a sticky, hard substance, I cannot remove, all over his body.
On his back he has a large spot of missing feathers and the wings have only the shaft of the feathers, also the tail feathers are missing. My guess is the tar was hot when he got into it and burned the feathers.
Now how do I remove this stuff, at least partially, he also seems to weight a lot because of this.

I hate to think this was done intentionally, but how on earth would he imerse himself from head to toe into tar.
Oh well, any ideas are welcome.

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Reti said:


> I was brought a little pigeon today which is covered in tar. The problem is, it is all caked in that stuff, from head to bottom, feet including.
> I had one baby a few weeks back in similar condition, but not as bad. This one is really, really bad. I tried the cinchilla dust and then a dawn bath and it got only worse. The tar is still stuck on it and now I have a sticky, hard substance, I cannot remove, all over his body.
> On his back he has a large spot of missing feathers and the wings have only the shaft of the feathers, also the tail feathers are missing. My guess is the tar was hot when he got into it and burned the feathers.
> Now how do I remove this stuff, at least partially, he also seems to weight a lot because of this.
> ...



We've had birds come home from races with a little tar on their feet. I believe that from the air, it looks shiny like water and they land in it thinking they can get a quick drink. Hard to imagine one being covered like that. I personally think it sounds like it was done intentionally, but you'll probably never know. I have no idea how you would get that stuff off. One of our racer buddies had a bird with tar on it, not covered but he said there was quit a bit, whatever that means and he just waited until the bird molted. Your's sounds much more serious though.........good luck...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

The only thing I know to use, is dawn dish washing liquid. They use this all the time on oil covered birds that are pretty bad off. I don't know if it will help since the tar is hardened so much and thick. Perhaps you repeatedly soak the bird with the dish liquid, it will soften and break up?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wow, Brad, love this avatar of yours. You did it. You're a genious.

I did soak him for a while in warm dawn water and also rubbed her a bit to break the stuff up, but it is worse now. 

Thank you, Lovebirds, this one is really bad. I think too, it was intentionally done, especially since he has all those feathers missing. I bet this stuff was put on him while still pretty hot.
Will give him another bath in the morning, but doubt it will work.

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I don't know how thick it is but do you think if you had some one hold her and took a cig lighter and tried to just melt it a little and then with gloves on, sort of peeled it off? I don't know.......just thinking here. This sound horrible and very uncomfortable. Poor baby......


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

Yes, sorry that is all I know to do...this pigeon sounds really bad off indeed and it does sound intential. Just what we need, another rampage of pigeon abuse but now on this side of the world

I found this link about cleaning tar/oiled birds, it suggests treating with warm vegetable oil first and some other tips.

http://raptor.iinet.net.au/raptorcr/rehab/oil.html

Best wishes and good luck with this poor pigeon.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I'm sorry to say the outlook for a tar covered bird is not good. Much of the literature I have says that if they are completely covered with tar that euthanasia should be considered. But treatment ican be:

Heat 10 cc of canola oil to 102-104 degrees F. Apply warmed oil to comtaminated area. Gently work oil through the feathers, stroking toward wing tip. Gluey substance forms which can be gently pulled off feather tips. Requires an extremely gentle touch to prevent pulling feathers out. May have to repeat but only if ABSOLUTELY necessary. After about 5 min most of the tar should be softened so it can be removed from feather tips or
washed out. IF oil is not efffective, citrus based hand cleaner like Goop without pumice or silicone may be gently applied in small quantities to help break down the tar. NEVER ALLOW the goop to contact the skin and should not contact feathers for more than 3-5 minutes, as they can cause serious skin damage.

I would follow up with Dawn and chinchilla dust.

Good luck, 
Maggie


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

A neighbor of mine was doing a photo shoot with a pure white dove, they had candles burning and afterwords blew the candles out and the bird got spooked and literally flew into the wet, hot candle wax. I told her to take the Dove into the vet as I didn't have any ideas and she told them she could do 2 different things, either wait till she goes thru an entire molt or put her under and pluck her bald. Well she waited thru the molt instead. Seriously if this poor bird has been burned from the Tar I would see about a vet putting her under and doing an entire pluck so that way she can get cream on any burns before they get too infected. Poor thing. Good Luck and pet the Piff y for me


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Here is another idea don't really know if you can use it or not maybe one of our more experienced rehabbers can help with this one, but what about this stuff called Goof off, My husband just used it to get Tar off his hands from working on our roof works wonders!!!! Disolves it almost instantly.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ohhhh, Reti. That's a tough one. Poor, poor pigeon and poor Reti too. Let me check with a couple of people and see what they might suggest.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Brad, thank you, this is a great link.
I will do as it sais tomorrow evening, after she calms down a bit. He was freaked when I got him and washed him, then he wouldn't dry and had to put him under the lamp to dry. He is better now and started eating after I hydrated him.

Thank you, Maggie. Great advice, that is what the link advices too. 
I do hope and pray he makes it.


Naturegirl, thank you. I don't think I will pluck her whole body, it would be too much. 
He doesn' actually have burns, just a bit of an irritated skin and big bald spots.
I applied Silvadene.
I have Googone, but I don't want to apply it on him, might be a bit too toxic for a delicate bird.

Thank you, Terry. Any advice is welcome.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about this pigeon with all the tar on it. This is a real tough one. 

....just a thought....What about using Basic H, the vegetable household cleaner that will strip anything clean? It takes the shiny fake coating off vegies and permiates the surface and make it squeaky clean, with no toxic fumes.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Treesa,
You mean Basic G? I don't have Basic H. Where do I get it from?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> Hi Treesa,
> You mean Basic G? I don't have Basic H. Where do I get it from?
> 
> Reti



Nope, not G...this is another Shaklee product, they also have a basic I, which is an industrial strength cleaner, a bit stronger, I'm sure.

I will e-mail the website pages on the product and see what you think.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, I didn't know they have so many basics  
Thanks.

Reti


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

It could have landed on a roof that had fresh tar on it. Birds come in from races with oil that is not bad getting it off. Tar you need a solvent that would be harmful to the bird. I think it may be best. To slowly remove the feathers by pulling them out. The bird will be bare need a warm shelter But the feathers will grow back And the bird should make it that way. Solvent on the bird could burn the skin. So You might cinsider what I suggested as a last ditch effert to help this bird. Good luck in what you decide.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

You definitely can't use the Goof-off, it's what is known as a 'hot thinner' and is very volatile and toxic as well. There are roofing materials that are sometimes used for wet/dry patches that the bird may have gotten into so it's possible that while the feathers are covered in it, it may not have been hot when initial contact was made. Wet/dry patch materials are a big commodity in the rainy season and are applied from a bucket at room temperature. Very 'tarry' if you will. I have read of the citrus cleaner Goo-B-Gone being used, but I'm unable to locate any info on that right now. One site did discuss using iron powder in the feathers, then taking a magnet and 'combing' the feathers with it. The oil sticks to the iron and then is pulled onto the magnet.

You may have seen these links before, perhaps they will help:

http://www.ibrrc.org/oiled_bird_procedures.html

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dawnducks.html

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/owcn/response.cfm

Many of the links to oiled bird rehabbing discuss stabilizing the bird for hypothermia and dehydration for 48 hours minimum before the feather cleaning process begins. Even though it is recommended to dilute the Dawn, I was unable to clean DD's feather w/the diluted mixture and needed to apply it directly from the bottle. I did focus on the rinses however to make sure that there were no soap residuals left behind. Then in a couple of days or so when rested, I would bathe again. It took many baths before I got down to the hard core areas, these resolved in time some by coming out on their own. Probably roofing tar on her.

fp

PS-That's the girl in the pic!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Reti,

I thought about what I would use if I had a bird as you describe. I used to be in the cosmetics industry and one of the ingredients we used to work with was a product called Polysorbate 80 (also called Tween 80). One of the things we used it for was to dissolve oil based fragrances into water based products. It is a very powerful emulsifier and the good part is that it is extremely safe even at high concentrations for skin contact, it may just be able to work on tar. Also, once the tar is emulsified it would be able to be be rinsed off with water (although I would use a little Dawn as well to speed things along). I think you could apply this and let it sit and work for a while with no ill affects on the bird, I believe you could make a collar for the bird, so he does not ingest any that is softening up if he pecks or preens.

Here is a link with some information on Polysorbate 80. http://www.wellnaturally.ca/ingredients/tween80.html

If you called almost any small cosmetics company in your area, ones that make body care products such as soaps, shampoos and conditioners would be a good place to start, and explained what you needed and why you needed it, I bet someone would sell or even give you some to see if it will do the job (it's also available for sale from the link I provided, it's in Canada though). There are also Tween 40 and Tween 60 as well, in case they do not have 80.

Ron

_Thought about it some more, and perhaps if the Polysorbate 80 is slow breaking down the tar you could do two steps. Use light mineral oil (really just baby oil. a safe product again for contact) working it in, then the Polysorbate 80 to emulsify the oil and tar and then Dawn, as I said, to speed things along._


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you all for the excellent advice.

relee, I don't think I can pluck all the feathes, I wish I could, but this poor thing is covered from head to toe, it would mean I have to remove every single feather from his body.

fp,, never heard of the iron powder, will check the links as soon as I finish this.
I applied full strength Dawn, but didn't work.
I know I kind of rushed with the bathing, but I thought I would get at least some of the toxic substance off him asap.
Plus pigeons are not that streesed when handled. He freaked at first, but then realized what it is all about and became pretty calm.

Jazarro, that Tween 80 sounds great. Will try to make some phone calls tomorrow.

I will try today the warm oil and then another bath, see how that goes.

Thank you all.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Reti,
Unfortunately, I don't have anything to add as far as getting this poor baby clean, but wanted to tell you how sorry I am that this has happened.

Getting a little tar on the feet is one thing, but being covered from head to foot is quite another. I'm sure this poor pij had some 'human' help.  

Do you think there may be an underlying problem that would have possibly grounded this pij, making it easy for someone to catch him?

This must be extremely stressful on you as well. Thank you for everything you are doing.  

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Hi Reti,
> Unfortunately, I don't have anything to add as far as getting this poor baby clean, but wanted to tell you how sorry I am that this has happened.
> 
> Getting a little tar on the feet is one thing, but being covered from head to foot is quite another. I'm sure this poor pij had some 'human' help.
> ...




Well, it is a young bird and is not doing good today, he just sits there puffed, the bad wing where the feathers are gone is hanging way down, but can't detect any sprains or fractures or anything abnormal.
I can't really tell if there is anything else wrong with him. He is eating and drinking and poops look fantastic.
I gave him the usually good stuff, probiotics, vitamins, ACV in the water. 
My guess is too there was human involvement.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> *Well, it is a young bird and is not doing good today, he just sits there puffed,* the bad wing where the feathers are gone is hanging way down, but can't detect any sprains or fractures or anything abnormal.
> I can't really tell if there is anything else wrong with him. He is eating and drinking and poops look fantastic.
> I gave him the usually good stuff, probiotics, vitamins, ACV in the water.
> My guess is too there was human involvement.
> ...


Hi Reti,
I'm sorry to hear your little patient isn't fairing too well this morning.
If he has just begun to 'puff' up, maybe a bit of electrolyte solution might help, if it hasn't already been offered to him. Just a thought.

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti,

I think the link for the iron spray powder and magnets is buried in one of the links I provided earlier, here's a specific one:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/earth/stories/s21637.htm

fp


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Reti said:


> I have Googone, but I don't want to apply it on him, might be a bit too toxic for a delicate bird.
> 
> Thank you, Terry. Any advice is welcome.
> 
> Reti


Reti, this subject came up once before - it might have been here, or on another forum I visit....

GooGone is safe to use on animals.... 

_". My dog got into some tar. Can I use Goo Gone on his fur?

While we do not officially recommend Goo Gone, we are aware of its use to remove ink and tar from pets and by veterinarians to de-oil birds. Be careful with the animal's eyes, and wash it off thoroughly afterwards. And remember, Goo Gone Hand Soap is perfect for our furry friends."_

http://www.magicamerican.com/faq.shtml


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

you might already know this....

Children's Pedialyte (non-flavoured) is good for birds that are 'down'. I'm guessing that re-hydrating this bird is of utmost importance at this point...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I hydrated him yesterday and he percked up a bit and he started eating on his own, but I am going out now so will stop and get some pedialyte and see if I can find the googone soap, that would be great if it works.

Thank you everybody and thanks for the link fp.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I found a handsoap in the grocery store called Lava, it's supposed to do a good job with grime, and goo. I applied the warm oil and washed him with the soap, it worked a bit, but he will need more baths and the problem is the head, he might have to live with the stuff on his head until he moults.
I also discovered the reason he might be so lethargic today. 
The wing that hangs low has a wound at the joint, pretty nasty looking. I applied Silvadene and started him on Cipro. Hope it's not too late.
I am off to feed him now and put him to bed.

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Reti said:


> I also discovered the reason he might be so lethargic today.
> The wing that hangs low has a wound at the joint, pretty nasty looking. I applied Silvadene and started him on Cipro. Hope it's not too late.
> I am off to feed him now and put him to bed.
> 
> Reti



Hi Reti, 

I'm glad to hear you got some of the gunk off anyway...sounds horrific And yes, that wound won't make things any easier either. Tar or oil is poisonous on it's own, so not good that it's probably getting into an open wound. Perhaps you should get some activated charcoal as well to try to get the toxins out of his body. Glad you've got him on Cipro too. Best of luck with this poor, poor bird!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Brad, thanks, I didn't think to give her some charcoal.
Will do so.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I am thinking this bird was Tarred and Feathered as someones sick idea of a joke. How on earth would a bird get it on it's head of all places without it being put their. I do hope he makes it though with your help.

Have any of the Tarry feathers fallen off Reti? Hold on to these and maybe take them in to the hardware store with you so you might do some quick trials with some of the products mentioned. If you can find a helpful clerk to test a few samples it will save you buying up products that don't end up working well.

Wish I could help more but my only experience with that stuff was to use mineral spirits and solvents when I got it on myself but really never found anything good to remove tar with.

Cameron


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I sure hope the poor guy/gal makes it! If anyone can bring him/her through, I know you can. S/He's in great hands!

We're all sending healing vibes and will anxiously await new updates!


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Reti, 

I googled on solvents and came up with something that might help. They have an 800 number too so it might be worth a call in the daytime. The product is called Citra-Solv. The following is infor from their page: 

CITRA-SOLV natural cleaner and degreaser is a concentrated solvent made of citrus oils, surfactants, and limonene (from citrus peel oil) that safely cleans chewing gum, ink, oil, grease, *tar*, gummed labels, and even sticky fly paper "goo". It is the only solvent safe for use on bird feathers, but it should be removed after it does its work. Using your thumb and first finger, rub a few drops of the Citra-solv thoroughly into the sticky goo or grease on the feathers. Remove it with a washcloth. Then rub Dawn liquid detergent into the feathers. It is crucial NOT to add water until straight detergent has been worked into the feathers. ONLY after you have thoroughly worked the detergent into the feathers should you add warm water. This also applies to cleaning grease from feathers. If you cannot locate a source of Citra-solv, call the distributor at (800) 343-6588 from 9-5 EST. 

Hopefully this helps.

Cameron


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Cameron,
Great work! Citra-Solv sounds ideal. I hope Reti will be able to find it without ordering it, so she may begin to use it SOON. 
Now we can recommend this product to help with future "sticky" situations. 

Phyll


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Good work, Cameron! I've read of the citrus cleaners being used on oiled birds
by rehabbers as well as the Dawn, just could not find the link for the Goo-b-Gone. 

I don't know if the tarring was intentional or not, but the pijies will crawl into the most unusual places up on the roofs. I've even seen them crawl into a 4" space between the buildings to nest. And they will get cr*p all over them. But, first hand observation is always the best.

Brad's suggestion on the activated charcoal is an excellent one. Hoping the little guy responds to the Baytril and that you've caught things in time, Reti.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you all for your great ideas.
I will call the # you posted, this sounds like great stuff, Cameron.

Question, when do I give the charcoal? My guess would be on an emtpy stomach right? And how much do I give, how often?

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> Thank you all for your great ideas.
> I will call the # you posted, this sounds like great stuff, Cameron.
> 
> Question, when do I give the charcoal? My guess would be on an emtpy stomach right? And how much do I give, how often?
> ...


Hi Reti,

I was able to get the activated charcoal at Walgreens, which is like a Walmart. Toxiban and Ipecac are also used:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/ipecac

So call around to the drug stores and see what they have. It has to be made into a slurry and crop administered then water flushed through the system.

Here's a link to a post by TAW:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=5751&postcount=3

Think RayN'Judy and Fred have some good info on it as well. According to Fred, it should be done hourly, but for how long? You can read the whole thread by going to the upper right of the individual post and clicking on the 
thread title.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks fp.
I have Toxiban, just don't know how much to give and how often.
Will read the htread now.
Also would it interfere with the Cipro? He needs it right now.

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I did some research this morning on activated charcoal and how it will work with different poisons and apparently, it doesn't work all that well with petroleum distillates. I'm not sure if this would include tar or not. That was basically all it said. Here is the link to the site where I found the information and it's mentioned on page 3 on the left under "oral Exposure";

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...to+a+bird&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a


As well, I'm sorry but I can't advise you on amounts for the toxiban for helping with toxic poisoning situations. It still might be a good idea however to administer one of these just in case it helps, however mildly. I think that the tar or oil would be getting absorbed through the skin so the situation is a little different than discussed.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Reti,

My hunch is that it would interfere with the Cipro. An idea would be that you could give them simultaneously, but about 6 hours a part, that way I don't believe they would interfere with each other.

Here is a link, it seems they use Toxiban for crude oil spills, which is very tar like; http://www.humboldt.edu/~mwcc/tour05.shtml

Found an old Pigeon-Talk link where there is talk about Toxiban dosage in Pigeons, http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/printthread.php?t=1013


Ron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the links Ron, very helpful.

Well, I did something I hope not too stupid. I cut her feathers very short, very close to the skin, so most of the tar is removed as it was mostly at the tips of the feathers. I still have to work on the legs later and give her a bath. Anyways, her remaining short feathers are pretty clean and soft with not too much goo which I hope will be easy to remove with the Lava soap.
Don't ask me how she looks, just awful, and if she could see herself in the mirror she would hate me forever.


The Citra-Solv, they have many places where they sell it just none in Maimi. But I ordered it online, will take a few days to get here.
Sounds like a great product to have on hands.

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

She might not like the way she looks but I bet she feels much better. Are you naming this baby "********" by any chance??? LOL. I know it's not funny. It's going to be cool to see this bird a few months down the road and remember the terrible shape it was in and how far it's come............any chance of pictures?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

How did you know his name is *******? Actually his name is ******* 2, cause I have another ******* from a few weeks ago who is now moulting and turning into a handsome Blue Bar.

I will take pics with my regular disposable camera and post them when I get the film developed and put on a CD.

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Reti said:


> How did you know his name is *******? Actually his name is ******* 2, cause I have another ******* from a few weeks ago who is now moulting and turning into a handsome Blue Bar.
> 
> I will take pics with my regular disposable camera and post them when I get the film developed and put on a CD.
> 
> Reti


Umm..........just a wild guess?? LOL


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, just curious - how did you manage with the blood feathers. What you did sounds like a good solution without pulling them all out.

Maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Those are gone anyways, only shafts are left. I cut only the head, chest, neck and will work on the legs tonight (hubby needs to hold him). He has no tail feathers or feathers on the back, so it wasn't that bad. Had not to deal with blood feathers.
The tar from the feet came off with the soap I bought yesterday.

Reti


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Reti,

Good luck and best wishes to you in helping this poor bird have a successful recovery. It sounds like a very slow and grueling process to try to remove the tar without hurting him. You and your husband are doing a great job.

Linda


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I was really glad to hear you cut away some of the feathers Reti. Especially knowing you were feeling reluctant to go to that step. After I read Brads mention though about absorbing petroleum base products through the skin I became convinced that it was the best strategy. Tough situations like hers call for extreme measures I think.

That poor little half naked bird will likely make it now though with all your care. (maybe keep her away from the mirror and hopefully she won't realize what happened). 

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you, Lin and Cameron.
I think the was the quickest and best solution for him. At least he is rid of most of the gunk. I also clipped her wings, cause the injured one doesn't look good. Might be even broken.
He has one tail feather left.
Good thing, he is eating, drinking and pooping nicely.

No mirror for him for a while, don't want him to get a complex. He really looks funny.

Reti


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Reti said:


> ...I cut her feathers very short, very close to the skin, so most of the tar is removed as it was mostly at the tips of the feathers...
> Reti


That was a great idea! You removed the toxic substance but let her retain as much of her heat regulating feathers as possible. Sure beats knitting her tiny little sweaters to keep warm!  Looking forward to pictures when you get them developed.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Saw Brad's update on the activated charcoal, and wanted to add to that. From what I read on the various sites, it would be true that systemic absorbtion is a major concern and can't be addressed w/activated charcoal through the GI system. But another concern that is addressed by using it would be the natural
inclination of birds to try to clean the gunk off through preening. That's why some of the rehabbers will use it along with the efforts to get the oil off the feathers with the Dawn baths and multiple rinses. 

They also don't recommend cutting or pulling the feathers, but , these are agencies that develop policies based on the volumes of birds that they handle and the goal of being able to release many of the birds as soon as possible. I'm sure that part of the logic in not cutting feathers to give immediate relief is the idea that they don't want to have birds waiting there for their feathers to grow in. Space,volume, and resources are probably huge issues for them. Seems like the agencies in general are more restricted than an individual, policy wise, and as individuals, we are able to make other choices based on being able to provide more individualized solutions and care for a bird in crisis. This gives us alot more flexibility with our choices. ******** 2 is lucky to have you for his rehabber and I'm sure you'll have a close eye on him through out his recuperation process. 

The issue that Ron raises on the Activated Charcoal and the concurrent use of Baytril is an interesting one. I was only able to find links that put the Activated Charcoal in with clays used as binders for toxins. Of course, the issue with the Baytril and grit would be the calcium, but none the less, either clay or Activated Charcoal and their binding capabilities w/the concurrent use of antibiotics is an interesting issue and I wish there were more available on that topic.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, do you think, when you have the time  you could compile what you've done with ******* 2 and make it into a sticky? I think it would be helpful.

Maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thak you TerriB, Maggie and fp.

I couldn't think of any contraindication as to cutting the feathers, well she might get a little chilly at times, but the temp in our home is 80F and she just won't sit on the heating pad. She did the first day, now she is moving around a lot and prefers to sit in a basket I gave her.
Other than that, I don't really care if she has to stay for months here. I don't even know if she will be releasable cause of her wing, but we'll see.

The only reason I thought twice about giving the charcoal is because of the Cipro I am giving her, I will need to ask my vet about that. 

Maggie, yes I can make a sticky about **********.

Today she is doing much better. I took her out to a window and she enjoyed sitting in the sun and having her pics taken. She is still a baby and very sweet and tame so far. She had to stand on my hand at the window, guess she felt safer knowing I am holding her.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad she is doing better today. Thank you for all your supportive care of this needy young bird.

You should consider getting her on the DHLA eventually, also.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> I'm glad she is doing better today. Thank you for all your supportive care of this needy young bird.
> 
> You should consider getting her on the DHLA eventually, also.


She's on it. Neem oil too. I add them to the formula which I feed her in the evening.
Also Arnica for the wing injury.
Garlic, ACV, probiotics.
She gets all the good stuff.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Wow...so far so good then...!

I am back from Portland now...

Just to recap a little, 'Goof Off' would be a definite No-No since it is a mixture of solvents and would poison the Bird instantly by skin absorbtion and it's immediate fumes as well...

Massaging Canola Oil or Olive Oil, warmed of course first, into one section at a time, to let it work into the Tar, prolly would be good, but I would not try doing it to the whole Bird all at once, but to maybe a third of his feathers in any one go...followed by warm 'Dawn' baths.

Clipping the Feathers of course is a straightforward enough solution too!

With all these washings, I would consider to glisten his Seeds with some nice Olive Oil which as a component for his diet, will nurture his skin in it's ways, to keep it from being dry...

When low-wage and usually quite crude people are employed ( and almost no one else is so employed for these jobs, ) to apply and spread the Tar for 'Hot-Mopped' roofs, I would not be surprised if they would knock a weak or grounded Pigeon into the Tar puddles they are spreading with their Tar Brooms...just for their idea of amusement.

What is most amazeing to me here with this, is that the Bird somehow got away, and someone found him...instead of burning to death, and or becomeing glued to the roof in some corner or other deeper area, or, maybe they just knocked him clear off at some point to avoid a lump under the felt...

Otherwise, as far as Hot Mop kinds of Tar situtions, there is almost no way a Bird could get into this kind of trouble with lots of tar on them. Active people wielding tarry Brooms are never other than close to the liquid Tar, and no Bird able to fly would stay near that kind of activity and commotion.

...sigh...

Once cooled to ambient temperatures, the Hot-type Tar is for all intents and purposes an inert material not able to impart any meaningful levels of toxins to the Bird, or to anyone... if is IS/WAS 'Hot Mop' Tar, verses 'Cold Process' types that are liquid or semi-liquid at ambient or room temperatures...

Good luck with him!

Sounds like he is over the hump now...!

Amazing adventures our Pigeon buddies sometimes have...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Fp,

My thoughts were that Cipro reaches maximum serum concentration, at least in humans, 1-2 hours after oral dosing. The activated charcoal or Toxiban, works by absorbing toxins/poisons from the GI tract and is not absorbed into the birds system. So I did/do not think that by giving them say 6 hours apart that they would not conflict. Perhaps others have thoughts or better information, but that's my current line of thinking.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, great to have you back on board. Hope you had a great trip to Portland.

Maggie


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, great to have you back on board. Hope you had a great trip to Portland.
> 
> Maggie


And I will second that. How was your trip? I will keep an eye on baby Winters thread to see how she is doing now that you are back. You were missed!

Cameron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> 
> When low-wage and usually quite crude people are employed ( and almost no one else is so employed for these jobs, ) to apply and spread the Tar for 'Hot-Mopped' roofs, I would not be surprised if they would knock a weak or grounded Pigeon into the Tar puddles they are spreading with their Tar Brooms...just for their idea of amusement.
> ...


The wet/dry patching materials remain moist at air temperature for some time to come. It's highly unlikely a pij could survive an immediate dunk in the hot-mop mix. The skin would burn.

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Have to agree. The hot mix is a torch-on job. I have done it. Getting any on any bare skin would bring on the worst burns imaginable. The goop on Reti's bird can only have been the semi-liquid cold-prep roof patch in my mind. Meaning that it was deliberately applied to the bird as no animal would roll around in the stuff even on their worst day. The liquid stuff too is *not* inert as it remains in a semi-plastic emulsion format. It would be very toxic if consumed by the bird in the process of preening although I will have to research what the emulsifier actually is.

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

temperature for some time to come. It's highly unlikely a pij could survive an immediate dunk in the hot-mop mix. The skin would burn.

fp[/QUOTE]

Hi phil, good to have you back.
Hope your trip was nice.

This pij had only an irritated skin, but no burns.
Another thought that I had is, if the activated charcoal goes just through the stomach and intestines to absorb any toxins, then it wouldn't be of use in **********, would it? If the toxins of the tar are absorbed, they will go into the blood, so won't even come in cotnact with eachother, unless he swallows some from preening, something this little guy isn't doing, I guess he is still too young.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Reti,

The charcoal is only meant to absorb toxins present in the gut and intestines and is only usefull on those toxins that have not yet been digested and absorbed by the body. If the toxins are absorbed throught the skin and taken up in the blood then charcoal is of no value. Also, charcoal works best on liquified material that can be absorbed, taken up and excreted by the poisoned patient. I somewhat doubt that something as thick, sticky and indigestible as tar would be treated effectively by charcoal but perhaps the components and chemicals that the cold-tar is mixed with might be cleared out in this way.

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Camrron said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> The charcoal is only meant to absorb toxins present in the gut and intestines and is only usefull on those toxins that have not yet been digested and absorbed by the body. If the toxins are absorbed throught the skin and taken up in the blood then charcoal is of no value.
> 
> ...



That's what I know too. So, then in this case the charcoal would be of no use, since it is not ingested.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Exactly. The intent of charcoal is to "catch" the problem before the liver and other organs have to deal with it. Giving charcoal is somewhat time-sensitive, even urgent in that you have to give it before the body has had time to digest and absorb the toxins. 

Cameron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you've never seen the bird preen since you've had it, then it doesn't sound needed. It would seem that herbal systemic flushes would more likely be helpful to you Reti, and it sounds as though you are giving the pij some of the supportive herbal & homeopathic rememdies already. Milk Thistle might be a good thing to think about giving and others that flush systemically or specific to an organ. But the liver is always a good place to start for something like this.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 

...yahhhhh...

Lots of good chow, warmth available if he wants it...Olive Oil Glistened Seeds...shredded Sea Weed and light Vitamine dusts on the Oil Seeds...the presentation for his discretion now and then of a warm Bath...direct Sunlight outdoors on nice days...

ACV-Water for their drinking of course, is nice for almost any occasion...

Ought to see him recover nicely...


Whats doing with that 'wing' business?

Does he walk well now?


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks fp, I have Milk Thistle, will give it to him today.

Phil, the wound on the wing looks much better, almost healed completely.
Since I clipped his primaries he keeps the wing up ok, hope if it is a fracture it will heal nicely.
He is walking ok, but not much, prefers to sit in his basket. He does get up for food and water, eats a lot, gained 7gr, poops are great.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Camrron said:


> Exactly. The intent of charcoal is to "catch" the problem before the liver and other organs have to deal with it. Giving charcoal is somewhat time-sensitive, even urgent in that you have to give it before the body has had time to digest and absorb the toxins.
> Cameron



This is where the Reishi, DHLA, and Milk Thistle, and barley leaf powder, come in to play, they will be most beneficial for detox now. glad you are using it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> This is where the Reishi, DHLA, and Milk Thistle, and barley leaf powder, come in to play, they will be most beneficial for detox now. glad you are using it.



barley leaf powder? Haven't used that one yet. What does it do?
Does Wild Oats have it?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> barley leaf powder? Haven't used that one yet. What does it do?
> Does Wild Oats have it?
> 
> Reti



They should carry it, it is one for heavy metal also, like lead & mercury...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Treesa, sounds like a good one, will get it tomorrow.

Reti


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