# Things are not lookin good



## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

Well Destiny has taken a turn for the worst, the vet doesnt know whats wrong! Of course the one time I need my vet and she isnt in. Her skin is very red, She can barely stand up, doesnt make a peep. She is dehydrated and breathing heavy. The did a fecal and there is nothing that they can find in it. Her crop is full of air! If anyone has any idea please help. my vet will not be in until friday and I dont think she will make it that long. The vet covering gave her some IV fluids and a dose of Baytril. Her skin is so thin that she only was able to take 1cc of fluids. PLEASE IF ANYONE KNOWS WHAT THIS MAY BE!!!!! The vet was honest and told us she wasnt a bird vet but she didnt want to do nothing so we are trying fluids and .01cc of baytril


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Wendy
Sorry things have turned bad. I did wonder if this was a paratyphoid baby especially after seeing the pictures. If that is the case then Baytril and fluids are the best things you can do, however saving a juvenile with paratyphoid is not one of the easiest jobs. I wish I could help you more but I'm in the UK and it's bedtime here now. There should be other people on soon who will help and give you moral support. Make sure baby is kept warm - ie with some proper heat source, but I suspect you are doing that any way.  Good luck. Talk later


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, I am so sorry to hear Destiny is sick.
It could be anything wrong so, hard to say what it is, but the fluids and Baytril are a good choise.
Now some blood workup would be in order and also a fecal.
Hope she gets better.
The air in the crop makes me think also of something fungal going on. Do you have Nystatin? 

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry that Destiny has taken a turn for the worse. As Helen posted, if this is paratyphoid (salmonella) then baytril is the way to go. Can you post Destiny's weight and the strength of the Baytril being used? As Reti, posted, the air filled crop could be an indication of candidiasis for which Nystatin is given.

Sending you and little Destiny huge hugs and massive get well vibes.

Terry


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## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

No I do not have Nystatin and will be unable to get any until my vet is back and that will be Friday. Guess that is not something that I can just go and buy so I am kinda stuck until she is back in the office. I am gonna go ahead and put some vitamins in some water and try giving her that. Dont think I can make things any worse right now


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## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

Terry,
I think she said her weight was 50 grams but I really am not sure. I was so upset I dont remember. The baytril is the smallest dose she could figure to give her which is .01cc of 100ml injectable of course given orally. DO you think some vitamins in her water would help?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Wendy, 

I'm sorry to hear Destiny is not doing well. Do you have any raw apple cider vinegar? This might help if you're dealing with thrush. It has to be the raw, unpasteurized kind though. 10-15ml per litre of water and then you could syringe some into her crop if you know how.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Wendy,

If the Baytril is 100mg per cc then .01 is about right for 15 mg per kg of weight assuming Destiny does weigh 50 grams .. if she weighs more, then .01 isn't enough per dose. I don't think I would do the vitamins .. thinking that we've already got a whole lot of something going on in the crop and wouldn't want to give it any more "ammo" to get worse. 

Brad .. the ACV didn't touch the crop situation the other day but the baking soda did. I think right now we've got to get the crop empty or nearly so and then only be putting in meds and fluids until things stabilize.

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terry, Wendy...

Sorry, I re-read the slow crop thread again and saw that the ACV was suggested already.

Wendy, I'm really hoping that Destiny will make a turn for the better, soon.


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## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

I emptied her crop @ the vets office, the way that we had discussed on the phone (that was scarey) than she was given 2 cc's of fluid and a dose of baytril. She has had 3 cc's Sub-Q fluids so far and I am just about to give her more. She still has air in her crop but not much fluid so 
i wasjust about to give her some more crop fluid as well. Her skin is not as red as it was, but she is still quiet and her eyes are closed. She is still breathing heavy but not as bad as earlier. Her weight was that of a 10-12 day old baby is what I remember the vet saying


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wendy .. you are a trooper. I hope the vet didn't just about faint over the crop emptying .. I hate having to do it that way as it truly is very risky.

Somehow I'm thinking a 10-12 day old would weigh substantially more than 50 grams, but let me do some weighing of babies here and make sure I'm not totally off track. If you have a kitchen scale or a postage scale and could weigh her, we would at least know if the Baytril dose is close or not. 

I'd go with small amounts of fluid to the crop for right now and just give them more frequently as it empties .. I really don't think we should get the crop any more full than we have to.

Off to weigh and look after my babies. I'll be back in a bit .. might be close to an hour .. hopefully less.

Terry


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## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

Had to kinda laugh at her reaction with the crop emptying. She is far from a Avain vet but her heart is in it. I am not feeling real positive right now. I just gave her 2cc's of fluid in her crop and when I did she brought up some goo (not really sure what else to call it) Also gave her 2 nice size pockets of Sub-Q fluids. I hate to have to keep sticking her but I know its for her own good. SHe opened her eyes and just stared and me and that broke my heart. This is killing me, tomorrow is her three week birthday and she seemed to be doing rather will and than WHAM!!!!!!!!!!! I love this little baby and I just dont know what more I can do to fix her


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Wendy, 

I'm really sorry this has happened It's always so unexpected when these things happened out of the blue. She sure did seem like she was vibrant and healthy, albeit it a little behind.

All you can do is your best and sometimes time is our enemy. Circumstances get beyong our control and it's just all around bad timing. Don't give up hope yet, try to stay positive and for Destiny.

Wishing for a turnaround soon,


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

makita,

Can you get her back into your fish tank setup and bring the temperature up to about 100 degrees, then put some bowls of warm water around her to create a high humidity, watch her for a while and see how she is handling it, I have found by bringing the temperature up, increase in humidity it helps tremendously with the youngsters when they are in distress.

Ellen


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Here is a interesting fact for you also.

Pigeons body temperatures are 107 degrees, this being said then the elevated temperatures for the brooder would be slightly warmer then for other birds such as parrots.

Ellen


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Weights ..*

Ok .. back for a bit .. the tiny little egglings that hatched here the other night weigh 15 grams each .. I have two babies that are now 11 days old and they weigh 50 and 52 grams. Sooo .. probably 50 grams is an accurate weight for Destiny.

Ellen .. thanks for the info and help!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Wendy,


Candida could be involved here, as could Campylobacter, Cryptosproidium or other organisms and nasty anaerobes which arise both from the use of so called "hot" tap-Water for food mixing or and drinking, as well as an incidental from formula which is too soft and gooey and lacking roughage....and of useing a 'Syringe', or moreso, useing a 'syringe' which is not properly steralized between uses.


Get 'good' clean pure Water for her formula and drinking which is purified on site at one of those Water 'to go ' Stores and NOT off the shelf 'bottled' Water of ANY kind unless it is 'distilled' Water...and or at least BOIL "cold" Tap Water for 20 minutes and use "that"...and you can start on the right foot in that department...instead of useing the 'hot' tap water which is the worst thing you could possibly do for a Baby or health compromised youngster or health compromised Bird of any age, and this will be one good thing to cross off the list of what is so far 'wrong' here with this picture, or inimical for this Baby.


If Candida is afoot, or Campylobacter, Yeasts or some other bacteria kinds, the use of the ACV-Water, recommended quite a while back, likely would have prevented it, especially as it is SO common with people's insistance to use 'syringes' even for a Baby who would have been happy to eat in a Natural way...

...or the "RAW" ACV-Water would - at least in my experience when I get Candida Babys already in it's throes - arrest and ammend it, with no 'Nystatin' needed...but, once going, once there is a 'gassy Crop' it is likely five days or six to the Crop being happy again WITH the use of the ACV-Water...IF all else is 'well'...and IF one let them fast for a few days while their Crop and digestive system heals from the Candida...


And, as mentioned long back, it should be the "raw" Apple Cider Vinegar which one uses for this, and, in cases of suspected or definite Candidiosis, one mixes it with "Two" Tablespoons of the ACV to "One" Gallon one Good, clean, pure, NOT "Tap" (unless one BOIL the 'cold' Tap water well for like 20 minutes or so, and use it) and absolutely not 'hot' tap Water...and uses it at that concentration for several days then dilutes it to be as one or one and a half Tbsp's to the Gallon...for several days more.

Might be a Paratyphoid Baby as others have suggested above...and a Vet should be able to make some 'tests' to determine if that is so or not...

Might be an overdose of Vitamines also going on, or Vitamine deficiencies from conditions of bacterias effecting their system and digestions...and or from bad food variously. Might be allergic reactions now...to toxins in her system from the above.

She might have gotten Salmonella from some source or had it to begin with even...

Are you giving her Vitamines?

If so, what kind and how much has it been?


I have no idea what the initial circumstances were for you to have a single Baby which seemed to have become so under-developed...

What is this Baby's provenance?

How did you get this Baby?

Where is it's sibling?

Is the sibling still alive somewhere else?

Where are it's Pigeon Parents?

How long have you had it?

Why are you trying to raise this Baby?

Where are it's parents now?

What is their History?

I kept wanting to ask, but got to where it was so frustrating asking you anything, I did not.


If the sibling has problems or an inherited illness, than that just might be of some bearing here...


Might be just a confluence of smaller cumulative issues catching up...might be heriditary illness or genetic problems...or all of the above...

I wish you well...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

> Posted by pdpbison:
> 
> Brooders are not meant for anything other then eggs, and hatching.


I am not sure where your post went that said this as it disapeared before my very eyes, very strange, but that is ok as I got the gist of it.

Brooders are actually made for young animals, they are setup to keep them warm and comfortable until they are able to substain life without the extra warmth. I have a brooder sitting here that I spent a couple hundred dollars on, it is not meant for eggs, it is setup for the youngsters, I have a incubator that is setup for eggs and again I spent a few hundred dollars on it, the incubator is setup to hatch them and to incubate the eggs. 

I have also had the opportunity to use the fishtank method, and the heating pad method. I prefer my brooder, the tank works well for very young babies that can't hold any heat although you do need to work at figuring out the temperature, the heating pad works well for youngsters that are starting to feather as they will hold the heat better that way, for very young ones I like the brooder or a light will work at a young stage and doesn't effect them at all, you are putting to much emphasis on what your likes and dislikes are with the lights on all the time, this does not hurt a pigeon, nor does it blind them, many flyers keep their pigeons on 17 hours of light a day to assist with the feathers molting to enable their pigeons to have the opportunity to have full flights when they are flying young bird season, it has been proven that it doesn't hurt the pigeon at all.

Incubators are setup to hatch eggs, and incubate eggs, once the egg has hatched the youngster needs to be moved into a brooder until the time they are able to hold their own body temperature outside of the brooder which the temps are dropped gradual for a easy transition into natural temps. 



> Posted by pdpbison:
> 
> You mentioned the fact of people caring for youngsters and their mistakes they make.


I can say that while they may make mistakes, they are trying which more then most will do, they come to us for advise and we do the best we can and they do the best they can, I feel very strongly that those that are willing to try are to be applauded for stepping up to the plate, without the assistance of some there would be many more lost little soles. I also feel strongly that unless a person is intentionally causing harm to another living being then they should never be ridiculed for at least trying.

I think that you have a lot to offer to those that need our assistance, but due to your extensive experience with pigeons you get a little to detailed when a simple answer is sometimes much easier for those unknown to pigeons to understand, please have patients with those that are a little less knowledgeable of pigeons and their anatomy as the education you have to offer will go a long way in teaching the public if displayed in laymen terms.

Ellen


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Wendy,

I have unfortunately missed many previous posts as I have been away. But after reading this thread and hearing about the gassy crop, and understanding that you are currently tube feeding formula, I have come to the conclusion as others have mentioned that Candida is the problem. Mild Candida is not a big deal at first but formula is the fuel to really fire a yeast problem and send it spinning out of control. The problem with formula (and also it's benefit for healthy birds) is that it contains readily digestible grain sugars. Yeasts can bloom out of control with it's use if already present. You seem to be very aware of the the symptoms already though and that is a good thing. 

At a certain point ACV and Acidopholous will not balance the problem anymore and then your best and perhaps last defence will be Nystatin. A crop culture can give you the information you need. It does take time to get a culture done unfortunately. Hopefully you can see a vet for a quick recommendation. However any time I hear the words "gassy crop" I immediately think yeasts are at play. Hopefully I am not repeating too much of what others have said. I am a bit out of touch lately.

Cameron


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## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

Phil,
As much as I was thankful for your advice, if you would have read all of my post 99perfect of your question were answer. Destiny's entire history was posted pretty much from day 1. I am sorry that I did not have time to answer these questions over and over and over again, AS I WAS DEALING WITH A SICK LITTLE BABY. I always would rather have more information than not enough and you truely gave that but much of it was the same thing over and over again. ANd to be honest your words dont always come off in the nicest way. But again thank you.

Unfortanetley, none of this matters at this point. Destiny has passed away. My little trooper died @ 5am two hours after her three week old bday. Again thank you to everyone that has helped us.


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

makita725 said:


> Phil,
> As much as I was thankful for your advice, if you would have read all of my post 99perfect of your question were answer. Destiny's entire history was posted pretty much from day 1. I am sorry that I did not have time to answer these questions over and over and over again, AS I WAS DEALING WITH A SICK LITTLE BABY. I always would rather have more information than not enough and you truely gave that but much of it was the same thing over and over again. ANd to be honest your words dont always come off in the nicest way. But again thank you.
> 
> Unfortanetley, none of this matters at this point. Destiny has passed away. My little trooper died @ 5am two hours after her three week old bday. Again thank you to everyone that has helped us.


I'm sorry to hear about Destiny


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Wendy,


I am very sorry...


On my end, I am helping people off site, while trying to follow several or more threads on site, while I too am taking care of presently ten Birds and making a living at the same time.

I am not always up on every prior detail someone posted on other seperate threads in other catagories about a Bird I find posted about in one thread.

If I seemed unkind in any way, I am sorry...




What a messs, and sad too.


I am sorry...


My sorrow Wendy for your and this little Bird's loss.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

makita725 said:


> Unfortanetley, none of this matters at this point. Destiny has passed away. My little trooper died @ 5am two hours after her three week old bday. Again thank you to everyone that has helped us.


I'm very sorry you lost your little Destiny. Just know that while she alive she was loved and cared for and you made her life a little easier. I was of no help to you at all but I'm not keen on knowing what to do with the sick birds so I just stay out of those threads unless I have something to input which is usually nothing. Again, sorry but you did all you could I'm sure.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

makita725 said:


> Destiny has passed away. My little trooper died @ 5am two hours after her three week old bday.



Wendy,

I'm so sorry. I know you did everything you could for her. My thoughts are with you as I know it is very hard losing a "loved one". Our pigeons are like children, and we do get very close to the little ones that need special care.

Sending you a BIG HUG and sincerest condolensces.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Wendy, 

Sending my sincere condolences as well to your over the loss of little Destiny I was really hoping it wouldn't turn out this way and that she'd come around somehow.

What a real shame, we all feel your hurt over this.


Take care,


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Wendy
So sorry that Destiny didn't make it. It was certainly not for lack of effort and love. You did the best you could in your circumstances and without your care she would not have made it as far as she did.
Our prayers are with you.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry, Wendy.
You did everything you could, it just wasn't meant to be.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I am so sorry.  

God Bless you sweet Destiny.

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Wendy, I am so sorry about little Destiny. God must have needed her in heaven. You fought so hard for this little baby and I know you're feeling really down, but just know we have all suffered like this and share your sorrow.

Maggie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wendy, I am so terribly sorry that little Destiny didn't make it. Bless you for all the love you gave her and your truly heroic efforts to save her. 

Terry


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## EdMurray (Jan 28, 2006)

My condolences for little Destiny.
My thanks to you for caring.
Ed


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Wendy,

I am so sorry for your loss, please know that Destiny had you to care for her and was able to go to pigeon heaven in peace knowing she was loved, I am sure she felt the warmth of the love you gave her, my heartfelt condolences to you for your loss.

Ellen


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm so very sorry you lost your Destiny, she's crossed over and is a happy healthy lil' one now. You have a big caring extended family here to help you through this time of sorrow.


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Wendy,

So sorry to hear about little destiny. You loved her so much and did everything in your power to help her. Take comfort in knowing that your little one knew of this love and determination despite all odds.

Lindi


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## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

Thank you everyone for everything, We would not have made it as far as we did without all of you. I took her over to University of PA today and had a necropsy done because I just needed to know why. I just got home from picking her up so that she could be properly laid to rest. The finding in the necropsy was a blockage in her digestive track, which of course caused her not to be able to pass food. They believe it was caused by the simple fact that she was so under developed that her little insides just could not handle the amount of food that I was trying to give her. SO that is what happened. When I got home our three sons had dug her little grave and made her little head stones, she is now under our weeping willow tree with her mom and Faith (her sibling). ANd everytime my willow weeps I will know thats my little angel talking to me,


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

makita725 said:


> .... When I got home our three sons had dug her little grave and made her little head stones, she is now under our weeping willow tree with her mom and Faith (her sibling). ANd everytime my willow weeps I will know thats my little angel talking to me,


Wendy, such moving words in the midst of all your sorrow for Destiny. I'm very sorry for your loss, it could have been any one of us trying to save an under developed baby. No words can take away your family's loss, but know that we all feel your pain right now.

fp


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## makita725 (Dec 29, 2005)

My youngest just said something that made me smile. He was getting ready for bed and he said mommy dont cry anymore Destiny can fly in heaven and she has all her feathers there too. She is a big girl now and she still loves us


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

makita725 said:


> My youngest just said something that made me smile. He was getting ready for bed and he said mommy dont cry anymore Destiny can fly in heaven and she has all her feathers there too. She is a big girl now and she still loves us



That is so sweet and heartwrming. He is so right.
Thank you and your sons for all you did for little angel Destiny.

Reti


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