# Ailing bird, myriad symptoms...help?



## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I have a young bird (4-8mos?) I've only had him about a month. About a week after I got him home he started up with what seemed respiratory symptoms, snotty sneezing and making a wet sound like he was trying to clear his throat. He got treated with Tylan/doxycycline and seemed to come around just fine and has been normal and active since then.

Yesterday I noticed he was sitting still puffed up and eyes closed, no interest in eating either am or pm meal time. In fact the only thing he roused for and showed interest in was an evening bath, kind of strange. Late in the evening as I was closing everything up I observed him making those weird chokey sounds again so decided he might be relapsing and should come back to the house and get watched closely and maybe go back on some meds.

During the evening/night he ate & drank nothing. HIs poop is very watery, very little solids, I would say a vivid green color to them. I can try to get a picture of that in a while.

About 4 am he vomited up some seeds, whole, so I know he ate at least a little bit during the day while I was gone, for all the good it did since apparently they sat in there and eventually came back up.

This morning around 6 am he ate quite a bit of his seeds, and drank some water. (I put a mild solution of ACV water in his cage.) I brought him to work so I can watch him and see if he might need a trip to the vet. He actually remained alert and active till about 10 am when up came a bunch of seeds again, no doubt what he tried to eat this morning. Since then he is still, eyes closed, puffed up, tail down, which is how he spent the day yesterday and night.

I felt his crop and can't feel any lumps etc., in fact it feels completely empty to me. I saw no visible sign of anything amiss in his mouth/throat.

He has not tried to eat anything since he last threw up, which has been 1 hour, but he did just now take a good drink. *This bird has not passed a single dropping in at least an hour. * I consider that unusual?

Anything else I can think of to add -- Oh there were pieces of grass in his vomit. Their flight pen allows them access to a little bit of grass and they do like to nibble on it. I have never read where this is a bad thing, and there is NO chance of any pesticide or fertilizer or anything else inside the pen (or out of it for that matter). But could just eating grass make them ill?

One other thing, they were wormed 4 days ago. Most everyones droppings are back to normal by now from that, and this set of symptoms showed up very suddenly on this guy just a little over 24 hours ago.

Right now he's getting nothing medicinal except the ACV and that's very dilute. I am wondering if it sounds like he could have something like yeast??


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you have a vererinarian that you trust with birds?
If so, I would take the bird in rather than going through the guessing game and I think you need to do it right away.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I have an appointment at 4:30. I have not seen this vet before but have heard a lot of good things about her, she sees pet birds and also pigeons, ducks, geese, etc...so I am hoping I can and should trust her! 

He's quite a small bird too and to me is feeling on the light side. I really want him to get well


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2007)

For how long was this bird on antibiotics?


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> For how long was this bird on antibiotics?


For about 4 days on doxy, then 3 days on tylan. That was 2-3 weeks ago. Since then they've had probios in the water about once a week and also vitamins once a week.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's really great. I hope it is a vet that you are comfortable establishing a relationship with because if you are going to have birds, you are going to need a good working relationship with a vet. So many folks here do such an excellent job f rehabbing sick/ injured birds still, it makes a difference when a medically trained eye can evaluate, in person, what's going on. Also, with a really sick bird there just isn't the time to wait around for meds to arrive from a supply house or from one of us. Critical to get them when needed and hopefully understandable advise on how to administer. 
Should the vet recommend injectable meads, don't be afraid of learning how to give shots. Often when a bird is vomiting, injectables
are prescribed. At least,that's been my personal experience.
Good luck.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Charis said:


> That's really great. I hope it is a vet that you are comfortable establishing a relationship with because if you are going to have birds, you are going to need a good working relationship with a vet. So many folks here do such an excellent job f rehabbing sick/ injured birds still, it makes a difference when a medically trained eye can evaluate, in person, what's going on. Also, with a really sick bird there just isn't the time to wait around for meds to arrive from a supply house or from one of us. Critical to get them when needed and hopefully understandable advise on how to administer.
> Should the vet recommend injectable meads, don't be afraid of learning how to give shots. Often when a bird is vomiting, injectables
> are prescribed. At least,that's been my personal experience.
> Good luck.



Thanks, Charis. 
I need to learn to do injections anyway so I hope she's open to showing me, and also how to tube feed.
He just made a stool, whew that's a relief. It has more solids in it than anything he's done since last night too, and color is better. So something got through him - right? It's still got too much liquid though. Who would ever thought someone could get so caught up in the details of excretia!


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2007)

It was definitely not long enough for a respiratory infection. They can be very stubborn. Just to give you an example, I've had birds with respiratory infections seen by vets and no matter which vet it was, the bird was given weekly shots of Vibramycin (Doxycycline) for three straight weeks. What happened with you is that the bird was probably not completely cured so the illness was not eliminated and not only that but you may be dealing with a more resistant bacterium now plus a possible yeast infection.

I wouldn't even tell you how long your bird should have been on it because an antibiotic should be given until two days after the symptoms are gone. You can tell that by the how the droppings look. 

For me, the minimum days with a respiratory infection is 15 and with that length of time, I always give Nystatin along with it.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

That's great info PP thanks. I will mention to the vet about those injections for sure...


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2007)

The vet will probably know but please get the bird tested for yeast too.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You can take care of yeast problems with garlic, but if this bird is throwing up, I would wait.

Throwing up can also be from lack of gut flora, have you given this bird some good human grade probiotics-(from health food store- refrigerator section)/ or kefir? This is absolutely essential for digestion, especially after a course of drugs.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> You can take care of yeast problems with garlic, but if this bird is throwing up, I would wait.
> 
> Throwing up can also be from lack of gut flora, have you given this bird some good human grade probiotics-(from health food store- refrigerator section)/ or kefir? This is absolutely essential for digestion, especially after a course of drugs.


They've had the Foy's Probios, and ACV in their water, but not at the same time. I have 'human quality' probiotics now but I did not think I could mix more than one thing in there at once so haven't given them any yet. Also I've had to dilute the ACV down to about a tsp per gallon to get all of them to drink it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You say the youngbird, 4-8mths, has been w/you for about a month. Just
a reminder about keeping birds separate for a good 5 wks before integrating
into a communal living situation. Also, I'm assuming that this bird was owned
by a breeder, racer, or some loft situation where the bird was also treated
w/medications? We don't always know how descriminating loft owners are
when it comes to treating their birds w/meds or following up w/probiotics 
and vitamins.

One way, and not necessarily definitive for determining a yeast infection,
is to feel the crop when empty. Does it have a thick, turkish towel feel to
it? Of course, the best way to test is to see the budding yeast under
the microscope. A bad case of yeast can sound almost as though they are
congested, though the problem is coming from the overpopulating yeast and 
accompanying exudates.

Hope that this vet is a good one, sharp w/diagnostics, and one who makes
a short list that saves the pocket book from unnecessary tests. This will
go far in making for a good ongoing relationship, and having a good one is
so important in the long run.

fp


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I kept them separated but it was for 3 weeks. Once they seemed fit and healthy in they went with the others. Something is either latent in this guy or recurring, maybe it's stress from the worming if the latter.

I don't know the man I got them from but I did pick them up in person and saw his loft/birds, which doesn't mean much perhaps but it was nice and clean and the birds appeared to be very healthy and fit. What can you do, but keep them quarantined a while...but maybe I didn't long enough.

I hope I like this vet too...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Have you tried to feel the crop?

fp


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Have you tried to feel the crop?
> 
> fp


i did earlier, but I was looking for lumps or ?? anything unusual. I will have to burrito him again to check for 'sponginess'...I might spare him and wait till the vet examines him and ask her to show me anything she notices like that..

I hope it's something treatable like yeast. I had a parrot who got what the vet called 'sour crop' years ago, had to treat him with nystatin. I remember he threw up and seemed a bit poorly. But what made me know something was wrong was the smell from his beak. He had a good appetite too. So this bird is acting different.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I won't report the full horror of my nightmare attempt to get this bird to the vet, but I did finally get to see her and this is what she found. No yeasts of any kind, but in the fecal and even more so in the crop swab, a boatload of gram pos. rods, which don't belong in pigeon guts. She got to hear his phlegmy sounding cough/sneeze sound which was a lucky stroke as he doesn't do it all the time, as well as his watery poo and vomiting. He performed well for her. He is still puking up bits of grass, which must have been in there since Wed. at least. Not very active digestion, poor guy.

She thinks all his problems are due to this bacterial infection and gave him a shot of the injectible Baytril. She also showed me how to administer those injections and gave me 5 more to dole out twice a day for 3 days, but if he's still symptomatic (vomiting) at that time she thinks he's history. The color (I called vivid green) of his droppings indicated liver involvement.

When/if he quits throwing up he switches to an oral liquid suspension of difloxacin. I also have some of that metoclopramide to give him but she said it isn't very effective in birds. 

She gave me (well she didn't GIVE it to me) a tube for tube feeding and demonstrated for me so I can administer meds or food as needed by that technique as I've never done it. So I kind of got a lot at once, but it's good chance to learn these very useful skills.

I left the bird and the meds back at home or I'd type the exact names and dosages etc. 

So that's the latest on him I just wanted to update this thread; I will share any progress good, or bad. Thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

If your bird is throwing up, he's dehydrating rapidly. Try and get unflavored Pedialyte into him. Keep the Pedialyte refrigerated. If you don't have Pedialyte, then try to get about 3CC of water into him every few hours. The hydrating is much more important than the food right now.

Gram positive rods usually come from something in the environment. Grass is a possible culprit. Maybe you should rethink using grass although this illness could come from anywhere else.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> If your bird is throwing up, he's dehydrating rapidly. Try and get unflavored Pedialyte into him. Keep the Pedialyte refrigerated. If you don't have Pedialyte, then try to get about 3CC of water into him every few hours. The hydrating is much more important than the food right now.
> 
> Gram positive rods usually come from something in the environment. Grass is a possible culprit. Maybe you should rethink using grass although this illness could come from anywhere else.


He's drinking lots, but I will try the pedialyte too. do you dilute it? 

it is a good point about the grass. i asked about it, she said it shouldn't bother them but then again should not still be loitering in his crop after 2 days. maybe i could replace it with gravel..


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Keep the Pedialyte refrigerated


...but give it to the pigeon warm!!! 39 degrees celcius. I remember Terry telling us that tubing a syringe of ice cold water into the crop of a very ill bird will kill it.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

Not gravel....they need a mineralized grit that includes calcium but don't give any sick bird grit if it's on Baytril or any of the tetracyclines. Don't dilute the Pedialyte.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> Not gravel....they need a mineralized grit that includes calcium but don't give any sick bird grit if it's on Baytril or any of the tetracyclines. Don't dilute the Pedialyte.


I'm sorry, I meant a gravel like pea gravel, to replace the grass in teh flight pen, not the feeding kind.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

TheSnipes said:


> He's drinking lots, but I will try the pedialyte too. do you dilute it?
> 
> it is a good point about the grass. i asked about it, she said it shouldn't bother them but then again should not still be loitering in his crop after 2 days. maybe i could replace it with gravel..


No, don't dilute the Pedialyte .. and yes, give it at room temperature or better.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

TS, glad you were able to get to the heart of the matter and hope these
next few days find your new bird feeling better and better. Bacteria, worms, and Canker are the most noted/common causes for vomiting
in pigeons. 

fp


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Last night I really did not see any improvement when I took him out to give him his meds, but at least I did succeed giving him the shot. I also got the drop of metaclopramide in him that was due, but managed to choke him with a drop of the pedialyte. I put him back in his cage hoping he'd clear out that liquid from his airway. I put it in the front of his beak, to let him swallow it, but bad timing, whatever, it went in wrong. I left him alone after that.

He is still with us this morning but no better. Some small poos during the night mostly watery, very little green, still that bright color is in there. Also a small pile of vomited seeds and he was retching like trying to bring up more when I came in here.

It is not time for his shot yet but I gave him another drop of the metaclopramide, and also tube fed him 3 cc's of the baby rice cereal. I made it pretty thin and used the pedialyte to make it. I hope that was a good idea....

When I put him back away he took a big drink of water and then made a dropping that I want to say is the best looking one since I brought him in but still I think there is the wrong color in there. He chose to stand in it now so I can't inspect it. He's sleeping puffed up on one leg and seems unsteady. I know he's weak.  Poor guy.

At 9 he gets another shot; if he keeps the cereal down, I'll give him more. Maybe a slightly bigger volume then. I doubt anyone else is up early enough on a Saturday to read this!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sorry he does not seem to be feeling much better. The strange colored poo's may also be due to the medicine.

Keep him warm and in total peace and quiet with subdued light, he needs to focus on using all his energy to heal, instead of any undue stress around him.

Perhaps you can add some human grade probiotics to his cereal away from the time he gets his medicine. It is absolutely crucial to get his intestinal flora on tract for his overall health and healing.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Give it a little time, he is sticking around and that in itself is good. You probably
have him on a heating pad to low or a heat lamp, small increases in food to
match small gains in demeanor. It may take some time but it sounds like you
are doing an excellent job including being patient and observant to his responses no matter how small.

fp


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I was gone about 4 hours, he ate seeds and threw them up again while I was out. No appreciable poos. I just tubed him 6 cc's of cereal, again made with the pedialyte. He has ACV in his drinking water and seems to drink plenty, is it OK to add probiotics in the same water? 

What about yogurt? Anything else that can help get his gut bacteria back? Once the vet gave me something called bene-bac for one of my parrots. I still have some but it's expired.  Has anyone ever used that or knows a similar product?

Thanks to everyone for support & suggestions


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

TheSnipes said:


> I was gone about 4 hours, he ate seeds and threw them up again while I was out. No appreciable poos. I just tubed him 6 cc's of cereal, again made with the pedialyte. He has ACV in his drinking water and seems to drink plenty, is it OK to add probiotics in the same water?
> 
> What about yogurt? Anything else that can help get his gut bacteria back? Once the vet gave me something called bene-bac for one of my parrots. I still have some but it's expired.  Has anyone ever used that or knows a similar product?
> 
> Thanks to everyone for support & suggestions



Maggie (Lady Tarheel) uses the Bene-bac faithfully and highly recommends it. Don't know about the expiration date though. Maybe she'll chime in here in a little while.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TheSnipes said:


> What about yogurt? Anything else that can help get his gut bacteria back? Once the vet gave me something called bene-bac for one of my parrots. I still have some but it's expired.  Has anyone ever used that or knows a similar product?
> 
> Thanks to everyone for support & suggestions


I have used Benebac and found it okay, but the results with using probiotics or a good organic kefir with loads of cultures works better, and to me I would not use less for this sick bird. 

Thank you for doing everything you can for this bird.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Human grade probiotics are actually considered more reliable than the ones
made for birds/animals, you can get those at a healthfood store, or as Treesa
mentioned, kefir. 

I wouldn't give a bird that was nautious ACV, just thinking how acv water might
make me feel if I were nautious to begin with.

fp


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I dont know what kefir is? The only product I've seen with that on the label is milk?

I live in a rural area without good access to things like health food stores. I have found and tried 3 in about a 30-45 minute radius but although they have listings they are closed down or moved away. I have to travel to an urban area to hunt down some of these things. So..if anyone can be very specific as to product description, maybe even brand names, that would sure help me out. So I know what to ask/look for. 

Are the probiotics you are talking about tablets? The only thing I had access to like that in my local area is in the form of tablets or capsules (in the vitamin section). If it's something water soluble powder then I have to travel to get it at a special store. Same for kefir; a powder? Liquid? If I can find it I will try some. 

Meanwhile I added some yogurt to his evening cereal feeding.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TheSnipes said:


> Are the probiotics you are talking about tablets? The only thing I had access to like that in my local area is in the form of tablets or capsules (in the vitamin section). If it's something water soluble powder then I have to travel to get it at a special store. Same for kefir; a powder? Liquid? If I can find it I will try some.
> 
> Meanwhile I added some yogurt to his evening cereal feeding.


I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time finding the probiotics. Kefir is just a higher grade of plain yogurt, but a good ole fashioned plain yogurt will do for now, the more organic/natural the better. Mak sure it is unflavoured and no sugar. A pinch will do..in a pinch... 

The probiotics are in capsule or powder form and can only be found in the refrigerator section of a health food section or store, a brand like solaray.

Thank you.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time finding the probiotics. Kefir is just a higher grade of plain yogurt, but a good ole fashioned plain yogurt will do for now, the more organic/natural the better. Mak sure it is unflavoured and no sugar. A pinch will do..in a pinch...
> 
> The probiotics are in capsule or powder form and can only be found in the refrigerator section of a health food section or store, a brand like solaray.
> 
> Thank you.


I got a small, 'natural' (says the label) container of plain yogurt and mixed some in with his evening cereal feeding. Also drew up the dose of the oral antibiotic the vet told me to switch to - _when he stopped vomiting_ - which he hasn't, except that SO FAR he has only vomited up seeds. The cereal seems to have stayed in him. So this afternoon I took the seeds out of the cage, to prevent more vomiting (?) and thought (fingers X'd) that if the cereal stays down so will the medicine. That spares the poor little guy the extra trauma of my inexperienced injection-ing.

I just re-read and I don't know about the sugar part I'll have to check the label. And Lord willing if the little guy is with us I will find some of the good probiotics for him.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Early this morning he brought up a small amount of last night's cereal. I gave him 6 cc's I would say only about 1 came up. That is a bad sign as it's the first time he's regurgitated any of the cereal.

I gave him his shot and then let him rest a bit. Before I put him up he pooped on me, actually quite a large amount for him but sadly, if I'm right about the color/contents, it's all bile in the solid green part - I have been searching for good clear descriptions of that on here and I fear that's all it is. Also is it possible the urates could also be tinged with that green bile color? If so I'm afraid they are.

I might have to admit much as I am loathe to do so that this little guy is getting worse not better. In spite of all the treatment/support he is receiving. I feel especially bad about it because I know in the hands of a more experience person he would stand a better chance.

I am not sure the frequency I should be feeding him although Charis told me if I have to do it in small doses (6 or 8 cc's) I should feed him every couple of hours? I gave him a larger amount of food this morning, 10 cc's, cereal/pedialyte/baby applesauce. Even if he brings some up, I will put more back in him. I won't quit or give up till he does, but I wish I knew better what to do.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TheSnipes said:


> Early this morning he brought up a small amount of last night's cereal. I gave him 6 cc's I would say only about 1 came up. That is a bad sign as it's the first time he's regurgitated any of the cereal.
> 
> I gave him his shot and then let him rest a bit. Before I put him up he pooped on me, actually quite a large amount for him but sadly, if I'm right about the color/contents, it's all bile in the solid green part - I have been searching for good clear descriptions of that on here and I fear that's all it is. Also is it possible the urates could also be tinged with that green bile color? If so I'm afraid they are.
> 
> ...


The important thing is he keep the food down. 

1] If he can't tolerate the larger amounts, go back to feeding the amounts that he will tolerate.

2]Feed when the crop is empty. If it empties in 2 hours, feed every 2 hours. If it empties in 3, then feed every three hours. Check his crop frequently so you will know how long it takes. You will need to graduate into feeding larger amounts. If he keeps the feeding down, the next feeding add a bit more. Not too much all at once.

3]Go back to feeding the cereal only with a bit of the yogurt mixed in and the pedialilyte. If he vomits that, take the yogurt out of the next feeding. Go with what works.

He is a very sick bird and it's going to take some time. It seems very positive to me that when you were feeding only the cereal, he didn't vomit that. Sure is better that all those seeds going back up.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Charis said:


> The important thing is he keep the food down.
> 
> 1] If he can't tolerate the larger amounts, go back to feeding the amounts that he will tolerate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Charis That's the sort of detailed instruction I need 

he has brought up several cc's of the last feeding already. Contents of vomit are cereal, 1 millet seed, still some *%$# bits of grass, and mucous.

His crop feels pretty empty to me now, so I have made up some more - just plain cereal this time. It takes it a while to warm up to room temp so when it's ready I'll give him some. Maybe just a smaller amount again like yesterday's.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I know you are very nervous about your skill level with this bird but you are doing a good job. You really are. You are very conscientious and you want to get it right. Before you feed or medicate spend a few minutes breathing deeply and centering yourself. You will be amazed at how much doing just that will be of benefit to not just you but also to the bird.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Another product you might try is Pepto Bismal, 2-3 drops down the back if the
throat, 3 times a day. Pepto Bismal won't 'fix' the problem, the meds and probiotics ultimately will, but in the meantime, the Pepto Bismal will coat the
bird's GI Tract and help to give the bird firmer droppings in addition to easing
if not stopping the nausea. Firmer droppings will mean less dehydration for
your bird. Your pij may be having green passings w/out them being pure bile. It sounds as though the bird is holding food down better, so 
this in itself is an improvement. I would give the Pepto Bismal about 1/2-1 hour before feedings. Try and relax as difficult as this may be and
be assured that you are doing the very best you can in a crisis situation, and
that your bird is in good and caring hands.

I know you may not have much free time, but at some point when you do 
have the time, take a look at this sticky, there are lots of diagrams, pictures,
and video on crop medicating that may make the whole feeding/medicating
issue less scary for you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15696

fp


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

PeptoBismol, a very good suggestion, I would never have thought of using it for him and I can easily get it. I read the links you put up too (some are gone away now) and they were very helpful. Thanks for that/

He's had an afternoon feeding of about10 cc's again, he only regurgitated a small amount from earlier today so the rest of it went somewhere?!? I managed to gag him again tho' on 2 measly drops of metoclopramide.  

He's still very congested and his nose is runny. Even without choking on medicines.

This little guy is a fighter I'll say that for him. He still fights vigorously to escape when I take him out, weak and frail as he is. Inspiration hadn't really struck yet since I got him, so he has no name; I thought earlier today that he really deserves to have one now.

Thanks Charis, FP, and everyone else for suggestions and help. Someone would have to be tube-feeding me by now if I didn't have people like you for support.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Happy to say thanks, though I know that Charis has really been the mainstay
supporter here on and off line, so a big thanks to Charis for all of her work  .
Hope things continue to improve for you, TS, don't underestimate your intuition
and nursing skills. Yup, now that you are really getting to know this pijie, one on one, you'll have to pull a name out of hiding  ...

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How is the bird doing this evening?


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I fed him 10 ccs this afternon, he did bring some up but not a lot. Some poo, very little. I have more food waiting to deliver.

As I wait for it to warm, I check his crop - empty. I leave the room, come back .... HE IS SITTING ON A PERCH HIGH IN THE CAGE. Huh?? *I* didn't put him there. He flew? Up to a perch? don't even ask me what I am thinking...?? 

Waiting for another abusive dose of tube fed cereal to happen once it comes to room temp.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sounds like he's feeling better.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Charis said:


> Sounds like he's feeling better.


It was brief, he 'fell' off it and is back down now  I am still doing a minor happy dance that he might have done a normal bird thing. Hes' back to snotty coughing now. I will add what dragging the poor thing to and from work is like, tomorrow...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's good. At least you will be able to keep an eye on him.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Well he made it through the night again but...he is really very bad today. I gave him his shot - it's my last one, so I will have to deal with how to get more meds today, that is being optimistic.

He is very weak and very congested when breathing. I fear pneumonia might have set in. His breathing seems much more labored, it really hadn't been that way before.

I am at work with him and have tubed him. At home this morning and on the way here he kept trying to retch as if to bring something up but all I saw was a tiny mouthful of the cereal must be from last night, his crop felt completely empty. He did bring a small amount up during the night. I suspect within a half hour or so he will bring up some of what i just fed him if he is consistent, that's how it's been, within 15-30 mins he starts.

I don't know why the injections just didn't seem to help him. I know Baytril is a drug of choice but he has just not improved. I am going to call the vet and see if I can talk to her sometime today about more or even different meds.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm so sorry to read this. I think you should take him back to the vet.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Charis said:


> I'm so sorry to read this. I think you should take him back to the vet.


I just spoke to her. She just wants to keep him on the baytril for now, and I can also give him the oral liquid version in his food, but I worry about that since he does bring up some food. She said for a couple more days before re-evaluating or switching meds. I specifically asked her that since it seems not to be working. I wonder if he has that in him though. I pray he does.

She wants me to start blending some kaytee or exact in with the cereal for better nutrition and add some karo syrup. I am going to the store to grab those things now, for his next feeding which will be soon. Also she got another vet to dispense the meds and it's nearby where i will be going for the other things, that's a break since her (name is Dr. Buck) office might as well be on the moon, I could never get there today.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Sorry I am a little late to this thread, but a couple of things come to mind.

The first is this bird really sounds like he needs his crop flushed properly. When my vet does this it is done a number of times using about 20-25CC of plain warm water (some vets will use a saline solution), until what is being flushed out of the crop is virtually clear. 

The second is I sometimes use digestive enzymes to help not only with digestion. but to break down any cellular material that may be blocking this poor fellow up. I use 1/4 - 1/2 capsule to do this, these are the ones I use, http://www.trophic.net/s9.html. Make sure the ones you get have Cellulase in them to break down cellular plant material. Just a quick comment, when these enzymes are added to Kaytee that is at a nice pancake like consistency, they will quick break it down to almost a water like state, so if there is some grass in there causing this, my hope is that the enzymes with safely dissolve it. 

Finally, once they start having breathing difficulty, this mus be treated aggressively and quickly. Pidgey has posted before about Gentamicin nebualization and in that thread there are links for dosages, also, if this is not a possibility I would get the bird started on injectable Doxycycline, or at least oral in conjunction with the Baytril.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20449
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=197268&postcount=29

Bless you for your efforts for this little guy. I hope this helps a little and the best of luck with him.

Ron


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks Jazaroo. 

I had thought about flushing his crop, cuz of the grass in there, but the vet didn't do it and I doubt it is something I am equipped to do myself?

I will try to find that product, I am stopping today at a healthfood store to try and find a couple other items for him. How should it be administered, if I can find it?

I don't have injectible doxy. I do have some tablets, I could crush up a piece and mix it in his formula but unfortunately I am at work and the pills are at home, so I can't do that until I am back there. I can't do the 'nebulizing' - I don't have that equipment. I have a humidifier, if that would work? Best I could do is put him in a steamy bathroom. But, not for several more hours. Sadly I can't stay home to take care of him, I am thankful I could bring him with me to work to at least keep up his feedings.  Also at home I have a few tablets of clavamox. I have one chloremphenicol tablet and some prednisone. Those are all vet (dog) drugs that were extras that I kept in the fridge.

I might be able to get it a little steamy in the bathroom here at work using the sink...?


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Crop flushing/milking is a procedure that can be life saving, but at the same time can also quickly take the life of a bird if done improperly, if the bird happens to aspirate what it being milked. Although I have done this myself on few occasions, it is a procedure I prefer to leave to the vet, unless time and circumstances leave no other alternatives. If there is a possibility that another vet in the area could do this for the bird, the vet should be an avian vet that has done procedure routinely in their practice, it would be good, my vet charges me either $20 or $25 to do this.

I have found that for respiratory infections Doxycycline combined with Baytril to be very effective. The Clavamox and Chloramphenicol would not be the first drugs of choice, at least not for me, but if that was all you had I would use them in that order and hope for the best until I could get a more correct drug on hand. I would not worry about using the prednisone, as although there are benefits to a reduction in inflammation, these are out weighed by the immune system suppression that would accompany the use of this drug, not something you really want right now.

If you can't manage the nebualization right now, keeping him quite, warm and well hydrated would be best, when you get home some time in a warm steamy bathroom might do some good as well.

There is a wide range of avian dosing suggested for Doxycycline, split between once a day and twice a day dosing. I usually dose 3mg per 100 grams of weight twice a day, and add few extra milligrams to the first dose as a loading dose (if the bird is 300 grams I would dose say 12mg instead of the called for 9mg and then use the 9mg then on).

With the digestive enzymes, I would use 1/2 a capsule in 5cc warm Pedialyte and tube him this an hour or two before feeding (and depending what I think is going on, such as a suspected yeast co-infection I might a single drop of ACV for every 5cc of Pedialyte, or just plain water). Just a mention, I know you have already done this, but no solid food at all right now and I would be feeding Kaytee, very soupy, with some added carbs for energy, I use maltodextrin for this, but you could use a little corn syrup, you want to take all load off his whole digestive system right now, about 5cc at a time, working up to anywhere between 6-8 times of day, as he can handle it. If the feeding is stressful for him a little more food and less feedings, but I would not feed more than 10cc at a time right now. You can skip tubing the Pedialyte once this starts, except where you are using it in conjunction with the enzymes as treatment and just provide it in a dish in his cage.

Good luck with him, all the best,

Ron


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I've just become aware and I am so very sad to tell you all, that the ailing little Pigeon, TheSnipes has been so diligent in caring for these past few days, has passed. He passed on his own without intervention. 
He will be membered by the name of Gideon. 
TheSnipes is understandably brokenhearted.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Charis, I am very sorry to hear this news. I really did not have a good feeling when I read about the difficulties with breathing for this little guy, and was hoping he could still make a recovery. Snipes, thank you for all you did for him, I truly wish there could have been a better outcome for him, and in tum you.

God bless,

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am truly sorry to hear little Gideon passed away. So often we get these precious little souls in whose health is so compromised that nothing we can do will help. All any of us can do is our best and you certainly have done this with Gideon. Through this thread some valuable information has been shared that may help save another pigeon with similar symptoms. 

Thank you for all you did.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

*Thank you to everyone*

I just wanted to close this off expressing my immense gratitude for the compassionate assistance and support you all offered during the time poor little Gideon was fighting for his life. And he did fight, and I am so sorry he is gone. This is still hard for me to write. 

I never would have been able to offer him the help I did without you all, and I will always be grateful to you. Most especially to Charis, who was there online and in spirit day and night. Thank you so much.

I wanted to find a picture of Gideon to share so you could all see the little fellow as he was in health, it was hard for me to look through them and see him, I guess I'm the sappy sentimental type! So I am just now getting around to posting one, and here he is:


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm so sorry to hear Gideon didn't make it. He sure was a pretty fellow. I'm sure you did all you could. Hugs to you...........


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry for the loss of Gideon. You and he fought the good fight. He was a gorgeous pigeon.

Terry


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I was so sorry to read that Gideon passed away. He was a beautiful pigeon. Thank you for posting his picture. I know that you did every possible thing for him.

Margaret


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