# Ringneck dove with overgrown scissorbeak



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Gang, 

My co-worker's sister has a pair of white ringneck doves and the female has an overgrown scissorbeak. It's getting quite bad and it apparently was intially caused from the male being aggressive and pulled it out of alignment during him "driving" her.

The top mandible is straight but curves down like a hawk or Victor's Beaksley. The bottom mandible is jutting out to the side and is also overgrown. I'm told that the dove can still eat on her own, but her preening ability has been compromised.

I'm going to see if I can get some pictures of this soon but I'm not sure what to suggest or do. I've never done a "filing" myself and told her to take the dove to an avian vet to have it done. Apparently she's called a few in the area, but they either said they couldn't or wouldn't do it. I'm a little leary of recommending my avian vet to be honest and I'm not sure if she'd do it anyway. 

I guess my question is & before I suggest/call my vet, how simple or hard is it? These birds seem so small to me and delicate, they aren't like my big birds that I'm used to handling. I've never filed a beak down and would be terrified to do it myself, I'd feel awful if I botched the job. 

In the meantime and until I get the pictures, any advice would be nice.

Thanks,


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## feralpigeon

Brad, my vet just used an emory board to file the Arch's beaks with. It isn't as
difficult as it may seem and if only a bit at a time, not going too deep, you or you're coworker should be fine. Just have some Kwik Stop or white flour or your preference on hand just in case. Also wondering if some supplements might help this dove out seeing as it is somewhat of an "on-going trauma" related
injury. Also, maybe they should be separted when this occurs.

fp


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## beausmammy

hi Brad,
I am an absolute novice with birds, and generally rely on you lot for advice...but..I have a fantail with a similar problem...my husband holds her and I very gently..a tiny bit at a time, snip her beak with ordinary nail clippers (for people) I did it out of ignorance rather than experience. Everyone is probably going to be horrified...but it works fine for us...I leave her beak longer rather than shorter..but do it every couple of weeks.
hope this helps
Jayne


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks FP

Just I suppose when you've never done something, it's scary and especially since it's a beak (a bird's bread and butter virtually). I would guess I'd use a very fine grain emery board for this job. 

I don't think that the male has been aggressive towards her since the intial injury, but I'm not sure...will ask her and see. I think that once you've got an overgrowth beak injury, doesn't it always need maintanence for the rest of the birds' life?


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## feralpigeon

For the overgrowth part yes, I was thinking about the inability for the mandibles
to maintain alignment and wondered if supplements might help to strengthen
ligaments much the same as a human might take when experiencing problems of the kind.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Jayne, 

That actually might be the best and quickest option actually. The mandibles are quite long and filing bit by bit, might be too slow and stressful. Perhaps snipping the ends off first, then filing the jagged ends down smooth might be best.

I'm just TERRIFIED to attempt it myself and because the dove seems so small and delicate. I'm used to dealing with very strong and LARGE pigeons! lol

Thanks for your idea as well, it's good to know that it could be easier than I'm anticipating. I'd like to save the woman an expensive trip and to my vet whom I'm still not overly happy with.


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## Reti

Before I started working at the vet's, when I was still a client there, I took in a bird with overgrown beak. I was told by my vet that they have to do anesthesia cause of the nerve supply that it is very painful (80$)
A few months ago I had to take in one of my doves with a scissored beak that had gotten excessively overgrown. The vet told me to hold the bird while he took the plier and just clipped the overgrown part of the beak. I was horrified, what about the painful nerve endings? Well, that is for clients. True my dove didn't flinch, was absolutely fine, even though she bled a little it was stopped with the styptic powder.
Ever since I am doing it myself at home.
Best to trim it when it is starting to grow a bit, it is much easier. I do it every couple of weeks.

Reti


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## feralpigeon

OMG, pliers? Well, the emory board gets quite a bit off at a time, but I really
don't know how much overgrowth you're talking about. A different vet told me
that by trimming the claws of a cat regulary, the area that is supplied by blood
won't extend as far, don't know if this is true or if it would be similar w/beak overgrowth?

fp


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## Larry_Cologne

*Trimming beak*

Hello Pigeonpal2002,

I posted some photos (not the best quality) in a previous thread (Victor's "Introducing Beaksley") of a pigeon skull I saved from a pigeon mummy years ago.

If I can get better photos I will, but it is the best I could do at the time. I also have to locate the skull again.

The part of the beak which can be filed is almost like a fingernail at the tip of the beak, before you hit bone. In the photos the bone is white and the nail part is black. The black part is not solid, but a thin shell-like covering layered on the underlying bone. Perhaps my wording is redundant: layer, cover, shell, underlying.

The nail part has no nerves, just like our hair and fingernails. Cutting too much would probably be similar to when we cut our nails oo much. I filed the claws or toenails of our pigeon *Pidgiepoo* when he was growing quickly and he snagged his claws on the indoor-outdoor carpeting before he went outdoors. I used the groove on a diamond knife sharpener, which was for sharpening fishhooks and dart points. Worked quite well, and was gradual enough that there was no chance of overdoing it. A few strokes and it was done. 

If you hold up a pigeon's claw so that it is back-lit, you can see the blood supply for the claw. I tried it again just now with my pigeon *Wieteke*, so that I don't stick my neck out and get my head chopped off. Scientific techniques and observations should be replicable by others under similar conditions. His beak was dark, couldn't tell much about blood supply. His claws were dark, and well-worn, but I could see through the last one or two millimeters (sixteenth of an inch or so) of the tip of the claw. The part that wasn't transparent was dark due to blood supply, I presume. I used a small LED light emitting diode flashlight. 

(Diamond knife sharpener, picture, link: http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/562/245). 

The skull is of a full-sized pigeon. I found the mummy, which my wife made me discard seven or eight years ago (before I was rescuing pigeons) in June 1990 in the dust of a stone medieval bell tower stairway of a Catholic church in the Netherlands (Holland) near the German border. 

The bone structure appears very delicate. There are three bones in the upper beak leading to the tip. a top central boe, lke the bridge of te nose, and two lower side bones. The lowr bone on the right side of the upper beak has been broken. Wheher this hapened before or after death I dont know. Microscopic examination would show signs of healing or lack of bone healing, but I don't think it is important right now. The bone is a mere sliver where the break is located. A dove would have even less bone mass, I would think. 

The point I want to make is that filing may quickly remove the part of the beak that regenerates quickly with wear and tear. It would be akin to removing the fingernail of a human, which is itself rather thin, and there would be nothing left to regenerate. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2353&d=1137968674

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2351&d=1137968495 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2350&stc=1&d=1137968467

Introducing Beakslet, thread
(http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13598) 

Also, I did some lengthy postings on pigeon *Splitbeak*, with a badly split upper beak.

Larry


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Reti, thanks folks for all the input

This helps to ease my fears and even though I knew I *might* be able to do it, I was/am still scared. My coworker lives with her sister but her sister is out of town for at least a month. My coworker doesn't know a lot about doves and really...either does her sister 

Perhaps I will make the attempt with the help of my co-worker holding the bird on the weekend. I might also pick up some things that might be beneficial and that I know they don't use, such as ACV, vitamins and get them to use a calcium source for the hen. In case you're wondering, I only found out not too long ago that her sister had doves and today was my second time at their house to see the doves...they are just precious little things and SOOOOOOO TAME!!!, even more tame than my own hand raised runts...go figure! lol

Thanks again for the advice


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Larry, 

Yes, that helps, those pictures are good to see. I am not so much worried about digging into the bone with the dove, as she's white and her beak is a little transluscent, so that will help too


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## Maggie-NC

Brad, we have a little girl, Katrina, who is a crested "something" and fairly small. She developed a scissors beak a couple of years ago and the vet said just to watch it since she eats and drinks well. Sometimes it would look pretty bad and at other times it aligns up normally so we have left it at that. She has no mate so we know of nothing that would have caused it initially. When we wormed them all last week her beak was in almost perfect alignment.


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## Reti

feralpigeon said:


> OMG, pliers? Well, the emory board gets quite a bit off at a time, but I really
> don't know how much overgrowth you're talking about. A different vet told me
> that by trimming the claws of a cat regulary, the area that is supplied by blood
> won't extend as far, don't know if this is true or if it would be similar w/beak overgrowth?
> 
> fp


That is true. Lucky's beak doesn't bleed now that i trim it regularly. And my cats claws are easy to trim since I do it every 10 days.

Reti


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## John_D

Our pigeon Piglet has a scissored and overgrown beak.. I know he's somewhat bigger than a dove, but the principle would be the same.

We use what is actually a long-handled toenail clipper to trim off the translucent part, then smooth it down with a small metal file. 

Provided the overhang is not too downcurved, even with the scissored effect, he is well able to dig into a dish of food.. I thinkhe would have a problem foraging for single items straight off the floor, though.


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## Pidgey

Well, Brad, you said that it was more of a preening ability issue, right? In the big book (or one of them) it said something about correcting scissorbeak by way of doing daily physical therapy on them to straighten them up. I'd at least give that a shot for a couple of months while doing any other filing. Full correction to severe cases have been done before by way of gluing on some straightening hardware (like braces for teeth) and leaving it on for awhile. I seriously doubt this bird is anywhere near that bad, though. My impression is that a bird like John's Piglet shown above is capable of being straightened eventually by the physical therapy alone.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you Maggie, John & Pidgey

Yep, Piglet's beak looks pretty much the same as this dove's. I will try to make the attempt over the weekend and if I can set up a time convenient with her to go over. I'm sure it won't be as difficult as it seems, but just as I said, I've never filed a beak before and it is a little more worrisome than doing toenails

Not sure I understand how this "straightening hardware" would work, Pidgey. I guess we'll see what my co-worker and I can manage together and starting with getting the beak trimmed. We'll see how that works out and then take the rest from there. I'll take before and after pictures as well for future reference for someone else.


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## Pidgey

Straightening hardware is not something that you're going to have access to although it can be fabricated if you're good with that kind of thing. These birds don't look that bad, though, so I don't even think of it as a viable option. Essentially, though, such hardware is like a pin and a guide loop or just a vertical pin glued on the side of one mandible or the other with the offset beak held over out of the way until the glue hardens. At that point, the upper and lower beak are held in alignment and can only open and close in alignment. That makes the joints remodel until their natural tendency is to stay in alignment after the apparatus is removed. Simple, really, albeit a bit radical for this one.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Still wondering if there's a bird equivalent to what Orthopedic doctors frequently
recommend for humans to strengthen ligaments, i.e., Glucosamine Chondroitin, or if this could be given to birds? Not that the straightening hardware could necessarily be abanoned in lieu of the suplplement, but in conjunction with.

fp


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## Pidgey

Personally, I'd be more afraid of the fumes of the glues I'd be likely to use more than anything else with the straightening hardware. That's why I'd be more likely to try simply bending the beak to the correct position several times per day.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Along this line:

http://www.healthydiet-shop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=59&products_id=311

fp


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## naturegirl

Hi Brad A vet can also use a dremmel tool to lightly reshape the beak back into shape too and it usually doesn't cost too much. 

Cindy


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## pigeonmama

I use a dremmel on Jeepers and Oopsie. Works great. No bleeding. It's quick. I LIKE IT !
Daryl


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## Pigeonpal2002

Thank you Cindy and Daryl for the dremmel suggestion. I don't have one of those drills and I don't think my co-worker does either. Both ladies are (unfortunately) not working at the moment so we're gonna see if we can do it ourselves. Many of the members have encouraged me/us to try and since it shouldn't be too difficult.

We were unable to schedule a time to try this over this past weekend so, I'm probably going over there sometime this week after work in the morning. Will see how it goes when I'm there and once we sit down with the tools and assess the situation up close.

Thanks again,


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

Sorry it took so long to give an update on this dove. My co-worker (Denise) and I couldn't line up our schedules until the week after new years and then I forgot to post about it.

Anyway, the beak trimming went really well. Denise had special nail trimming/manicurist scissors and this worked great along with the emory board. She actually did the trimming while I held the dove. We went very slow and only took off the ends mostly but this was a HUGE improvement. 

The dove didn't even flinch really and was such a good little girl during the procedure. She can eat much easier now and the best part is she can preen herself again! 

I intend to go back soon and we're going to file a bit more down and smooth out the edges a little better. It really wasn't hard at all and there was no bleeding at all


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## mr squeaks

GREAT NEWS, BRAD!!  

Thanks so much for the update!!  

VERY encouraging for others!


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## Reti

Glad it went well. It's not that hard once you get used to doing it.
Thanks for the update.

Reti


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## Whitefeather

Thanks for the update Brad.  
Good to hear the beak trimming went well.

I know the little dovey is ever so grateful.  

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hey Folks, 

Went over to my coworkers again this evening to help with a little more filing of the dove's beak and we managed to shave off a bit more. I have to say though, we are afraid to go any further than what we have. The veins appear to be extending nearly to the limits of the beak & to where it is right now. I think we've done all we can and within our abilities. I did however think that the beak looked ever more scissored than the last time I was there. 

The doves belong to Denise's sister who is out of town at the moment. Denise is also moving out of this house at the end of February so I think we've done all we can to help the bird. I have only met the sister once before and probably will never see her again and once my co-worker moves out of their shared house. Denise is going to try to teach her sister how to file the beak down as needed and keep it from overgrowing as best she can. 

I took over some grit for them (which they weren't using), suggested the use of avian vitamins, ACV and get the doves on a better feed than what they are currently using so hopefully her sister will take heed of some things.

I remembered to take my camera this time and took a few pictures of the doves and the beak. I also took some of their other animals. Denise has a toy pomeranian dog named Tia, she's 12. Her sister has 2 female cats, Precious (a long haired siamese) and a short haired cat, named Stache, lol....you'll see why.

The most amazing thing is that all these animals get along so wonderfully. The dog and the cats are great buddies and both the dog & the cats are so great with the doves. The dog can't seem to get enough of the doves, watching them intently in their cage or while they are on top of it. I'm told that the one cat will even sit inside the doves cage, peacefully watching them. The doves have no fear of the dog or the cats either, lol. Quite an enjoyable and interesting group of critters living together in harmony. 

Denise has truly fallen in love with the doves and is hoping to get a pair herself after she moves and is settled again. She's very much an animal lover and it's obvious that the animals in their house respond to her very much from what I've seen.

Anyway, here are the pictures I took. With the doves beak, you will notice the scissor aspect in the two pictures. The upper mandible used to be nearly curled right under and was starting to grow upwards before we cut it.


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## Pigeonpal2002

And the furry critters


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## Reti

They are all so adorable, Brad.
The beak doesn't look that great. I noticed also my dove's scissored beak is getting worse lately. I wonder if the trimming has anything to do with it.
My vet told me that it can be set, haven't tried it yet but guess I will have to at some point.

Reti


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## Whitefeather

Thanks for the update *&* pictures Brad.  
The birds are beautiful, Tia is adorable (but looks pretty fiesty  ) & Stache looks like a 'Charlie' to me. As in *Charlie Chaplin*.   

Cindy


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## mr squeaks

MANY thanks for the updates and pictures, Brad. 

I agree with Cindy on the kitty Charlie Chaplin lookalike!

Had to laugh when you mentioned about sitting in the doves cage...ALL my cats have investigated Squeaks' home (when he's OUT, of course  ). Only Gypsy has actually made herself at home for a couple of brief times. She's a BIG cat and takes up practically the WHOLE area!


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## TAWhatley

Darling birds and animals! Thanks for the photos, Brad. The beak on the dove does look severely scissored. I hope the regular trimmings can keep it in good enough shape for the bird to continue to eat on its own. It might be a good idea to have an avian vet have a look to see if there is anything that can be done to correct the situation.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

Brad, thanks for the pics. Boy, the beak does look pretty bad. I'm surprised she can eat on her own. The doves are really beautiful tho, so pretty and clean.

Tell Denise her little pom is precious. And I can see why the kitty is named Stache - he does look like Charlie Chaplin.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Folks, 

I'm glad you liked the pictures...all of these animals are just the dearest, sweetest, most lovable creatures, truly! I'd take them all if I could.

The dove does eat fine at the moment and since the trimming was done, she is able to preen herself and her feathers look much better than they did.

I'll try to convince Denise to get her sister to see about getting the dove to a vet for a consultation as well as a more professional opinion. Denise didn't think the beak looked more scissored but I did. She lives there and wouldn't see the gradual worsening like an outsider would.


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