# Young pigeon loosing contents of crop and looking unwell?



## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi all,

One of my young birds who I had previously released has returned home and sneaked in. She has been sitting up on the bar all fluffed up and being quiet, although repelling the others if they threaten her.
A little while ago she was sick and emptied her crop in a couple of goes. She is still looking ill and fluffed up and seems to be sleeping a lot.
I was wondering if she might have eaten something that has poisoned her either on purpose or some kind of bad food. I did not see exactly what she brought up but what I did see looks like seed.

Is their anything I can do to help this bird. Can I administer a pre-emptive antibiotic? or something else? She is sleeping and I am worried she will be worse in the morning. I want to give her something to help but on the other hand I don't want to put her liver and kidneys under even greater strain if they are trying to filter out something poisonous.

Any helpful advice please,
Brian.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If you have Pepto Bismo...give her a couple of drops of that. It will coat her crop and keep her from vomiting. Other than the Pepto, I would treat her for canker and also worm her.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

She seems a little stronger since she has been sick, although she is still trying to stay away from fighting with the others. She has even eaten a little.
Should I wait a bit before doing anything, in case she simply had to get rid of something she ate and will now improve, or would you treat her anyway.

I can try and get some pepto bismo tomorrow, but I have Harkers 3-in-1 for the other things. I can give her one tomorrow maybe? or should I do it as soon as possible?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

BHenderson said:


> She seems a little stronger since she has been sick, although she is still trying to stay away from fighting with the others. She has even eaten a little.
> Should I wait a bit before doing anything, in case she simply had to get rid of something she ate and will now improve, or would you treat her anyway.
> 
> I can try and get some pepto bismo tomorrow, but I have Harkers 3-in-1 for the other things. I can give her one tomorrow maybe? or should I do it as soon as possible?


She shouldn't be with the other pigeons.

No...you shouldn't wait. I would treat her.

The 3 in 1 is worthless as it doesn't have enough of any one medicine to do much of anything but cause resistance to the drugs.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I have moved her in the travel cage and put her next to me as she was getting picked on. The Harkers 3-in-1 has had good reports elsewhere, so I will give her one for now. Tomorrow all the birds are going to be bathed with Permethrin, I hope this will take care of any other problems she has.
I have a reasonable collection of medicine, but I do all the rehab work I do from my benefit money. I cannot afford a lot of medicines, I have to buy them one at a time and build them up. I will look around to see what medicine seems to be the best.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

She is still weak today, she has to try a couple of times to make it up to the bar. Do you think I should give her a second Harkers 3-in-1? If like you say it is not powerful, maybe I need to use 2?

Brian.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Take the bar out. Give her supplemental heat and hand feed her. I am unable to find the ingredient list and concentration of each medication in the Harker's 3 and 1. I did find that it should not be used when birds are molting and as it has a wormer, I would not repeat today.
Believe me...I understand how difficult it is with the cost of medications. Still, you are far better off with investing for individual medications because buying the combo medications is like giving your money away. If I had to choose which medication to buy first, it would be a canker medication. Next, I would invest in an antibiotic followed by a coccidia and a worming medication.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

She does seem to eat occasionally, I have given her some hulled sunflower seed which she ate some of. I have the Critical Care Formula and I have baby food for birds. I have Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Fiormula, and I have another baby food that I think is too fruity for pigeons. Do you think either of these would be good to feed her? Or should I use the olive oil and porridge mix that someone showed me? Or is there something else I can hand feed her?

I have anitibiotics. I have a cheaper version of Baytril called Enroflox, I also have a small amount of Baytril left. I have Flagyl tablets and some other antibiotics. I have some opiate painkillers just in case.

The other birds have been bathed in Permectrin II today, but I did not bath her just in case it was too much for her weakened body.

Can you suggest the best Canker medicine I can aim to buy, the one that works the best and canker has not built up any resistance to? I will aim to buy it as soon as I can, but I do still have this battle going on with the council which is making things difficult.

To be honest, I more often spot problems with the droppings of pigeons in London because of the bad food they end up eating off the streets. Green droppings is common, but I have hardly seen canker.

Thank you for all this information,
Brian.

P.s. I have just found the Harkers tablet in the cage, so she must have chucked it up after I gave it to her, so in fact she has not had any medication yet.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Brian! I've only ever lost pigeons who were regurgitating when I didn't hand feed them, thinking (incorrectly) they only needed medicine and would eat enough on their own when they felt better. The opposite seems true- a bird that regurgitates goes downhill fast and needs urgent care (ie hand feeding) over the next 24-48 hours. 

Some of my rescues couldn't keep down the food and died anyway- but then Charis told me about Pepto Bismol and this seems like the perfect solution to keeping the food down. I would definitely do what she says and get a hold of some.

You can hand feed warmed up defrosted peas. I personally use broken up pieces of rehyrdated cat kibble with really good results. You only need to give about ten small pieces (broken up) per sitting, for 2 days, then when they've stabilised give small seeds and sunflower kernels. It helps to take out the bigger seeds like corn.

So give the meds (Flagyl, wormer, antibiotic), but give the pepto Bismol to help her keep her food down, and hand feed a couple of times a day until she seems stable.

PS. I've occasionally seen a crop yeast infection cause the regurgitation. The antibiotics will make this worse and the bird will continue to deteriorate, if your pigeon has yeast. If you see this happen, grab some Nystatin (Nilstat) to kill the yeast. Its not bad idea to give Nystatin anyway during/after a course of antibiotics.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Great information, Thanks. I will get the pepto bismol tomorrow even if I have to borrow the money, and I will feed her first thing in the morning, she is asleep and I don't want to wake her unnecessarily.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

BHenderson said:


> She does seem to eat occasionally, I have given her some hulled sunflower seed which she ate some of. I have the Critical Care Formula and I have baby food for birds. I have Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Fiormula, and I have another baby food that I think is too fruity for pigeons. Do you think either of these would be good to feed her? Or should I use the olive oil and porridge mix that someone showed me? Or is there something else I can hand feed her?
> 
> I have anitibiotics. I have a cheaper version of Baytril called Enroflox, I also have a small amount of Baytril left. I have Flagyl tablets and some other antibiotics. I have some opiate painkillers just in case.
> 
> ...


Bless your heart for stepping up and doing all you can. You are making a difference for the pigeons that cross your path.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you for your help. I hope to start her as above tomorrow and I hope she will start to improve. I may give her a little flagyl after the pepto bismol.

Thank you again, both of you,
Brian.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would treat her for canker, (very common). Giving her a little Flagyl isn't treating her. That's just teasing the illness, and causing resistance to the drug. Kinda like using a 4 in 1. Treat her for 7 days with the Flagyl at 50 mg daily.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I agree Jay3 I will treat her properly. I am a little nervous about what is best to do because she continues to look ill and weak, although she does perk up at point and drinks the vitamin and probiotic water and eats a little. she is hugging the heater and stays fluffed up most of the time. She is young, she is one of the youngans that sneaked in when I was trying to catch an ill bird and I let her stay for a while to fatten up. But she has come back because she feels ill. I find this time of year very hard because you can hear and see all the babies trying to compete with the adults for the little food there is, and I have to hide the little bit of food that I can put out otherwise I get in trouble. If I see really thin young ones I try to grab them when they are eating and bring them in for a while.

I'm getting carried away, but I have also noticed some green poop, although I often notice that in some of my birds and I used to always treat them for coccidia, but I have noticed it does not really make them ill, so I used to leave it if I saw green poop unless they actually started to look ill. I remember reading something about this as well.

All my birds are really quiet today after having to catch them all yesterday and dip them in the Permectrin II mix. They don't like being caught lol. Also we are turning the place upside down in preparation for the floor paint and other methods to keep the whole place much cleaner. This has to be done because the council are trying to change the tenancy agreement so that pigeons are not allowed inside peoples housed at all, and when I challenge this I expect they will send round people to inspect my flat to try and find reasons to shut me down. I worry about the stress this is putting on the birds though.

I will get the pepto bismol shortly, after giving this I will give the flagyl and try some sweetcorn and peas. I also have the cat kibble mentioned and I will try some of that as well. lets hope for the best.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Pepto bisomol is now a permanent part of my medicine kit. I have give a couple of drops with a few peas and 50mg Flagyl. I assume you keep giving the pepto with each feed? once a day? with food.

I just hope she now holds down the medicine.

Brian.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

BHenderson said:


> I'm getting carried away, but I have also noticed some green poop, although I often notice that in some of my birds and I used to always treat them for coccidia, but I have noticed it does not really make them ill, so I used to leave it if I saw green poop unless they actually started to look ill. I remember reading something about this as well.


I've read this too, I think the advice is originally from Dr Colin Walkers site (the Australian Pigeon Vet). The idea is to let young birds build up their natural immunity to coccidia & other disease instead of rushing to the medicine cabinet whenever their droppings get a little bit strange. It makes sense to me and I usually try to follow this advice with my own babies. But I've got to say that the babies that required treatment ( in the wild flock as well as captive flock) seem to do fine later in life in spite of the meds I give them while young. That is to say, I am not seeing recurring illness due to poor immune systems. I guess another factor to consider is how the slightly ill babies are affecting the rest of the flock...if the others are getting sick too, then maybe its best to just flock treat and nail the illness on the head. Its a tough call!



> All my birds are really quiet today after having to catch them all yesterday and dip them in the Permectrin II mix. They don't like being caught lol.


Brian, have you considered using Moxidectin instead? You can put this in the pigeon's water for 24 hours, and it will treat internal and external parasites without stressing them out. It works really well for my birds. 



> I also have the cat kibble mentioned and I will try some of that as well. lets hope for the best


If you use the cat kibble, soak the pieces in water first for a few hours. They should rehydrate into soft, spongy pieces that can be broken into halves easily.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The problem with putting it in the water is that they may not drink enough of the medicated water if they can go to another water source.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for the info - I think the problem with Moxidectin was the cost, it was much more expensive than Permectrin II. I had trouble getting the Permectrin II but I think I have a couple of people who will supply to the uk now.
I like the sound of Moxidectin because it sounds like a further development of drugs like Ivermectin, but I will need more money to buy it. Even at very cheap sites like Medicanimal it costs between £50 and £150, plus I don't know what type to buy.

I have been given some information on a product that is a pre-prepared form of Ivermectin to go in drinking water, I may investigate that next as it is cheaper. 

The place is having the carpet taken out tomorrow and the floor painted to make the place easier to keep clean, and to try and stop the council shutting me down. It will all be more upset for the birds though.

I will feed the sick one first thing before the work starts. Should I keep giving her pepto bismol before meds and food?

Thanks again,
Brian.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, it won't hurt her. Just a couple of drops. Feed her before the meds, and that may even help her not to vomit the med.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Brian,

I know what you mean about moxidectin being a bit expensive. I usually have 4 or so liters of water out for my caged birds for drinking and bathing. But when I worm with moxidectin, I give them 500ml to 1 litre, so the dosage is much less...its something like 5mls, just once for all the birds. A bottle lasts quite a long time this way. I dose my rescued wild pigeons orally.

PS. I think I remember Charis telling me to give the pepto 20 mins or so before feeding, to give it a chance to work.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you both for the info on pepto bismol. I thought it might take time to work so I gave it a bit of time before the Flagyl and food, but I will give 20mins today.

I also agree that Moxidectin has the advantage that it can be given orally and is probably more effective then permethrin or Ivermectin. Orally with feral pigeons is a BIG advantage, I hate having to catch them when they are obviously so afraid. The ones that have been with me a while do tend to give up quick because they know I have never hurt them, but the new pigeons are very frightened sometimes. I use a good net and I spend a bit of time calming them down in a darkened area before I give them the medicine.

As soon as my present troubles are over(hopefully successfully) I will start saving for some Moxidectin.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

She has very bad diarrhea this morning and it is green. I have given her pepto bismol and 20 mins later the 50mg flagyl and the cat kibble and a couple of peas to take the taste away.
I am very concerned now that I am not treating the coccidia and I only have the Harkers 3-in-1. I think I also have something called Parastop that I have never used. I have enroflox if that will help.

Can someone provide and urgent response so I can start treating her for coccidia because her diarrhea seems very bad and she may start to fade away.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Parastop and enroflox are not for coccidia. Those are like treating with Baytril. But that doesn't treat coccidia.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I might as well treat her with Harkers 3-in-1 then, as its the only thing I have that treats coccidiosis.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That isn't going to do any good. There isn't enough of each med in there to treat anything. It will just help to build a resistance to the small amount of medication in it. You really need a medication that is just for cocci.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Even if I did have the money to order it right now, It would not get to me for days. I don't have any more money until monday anyway. The pet shops round here do not stock many medicines, and I have not seen anything beyond worming tablets.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

BHenderson said:


> Even if I did have the money to order it right now, It would not get to me for days. I don't have any more money until monday anyway. The pet shops round here do not stock many medicines, and I have not seen anything beyond worming tablets.


Don't they have places there that sell grain for chickens and such? They must have. They would sell coccidia meds


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

The web site I have just checked for Enroflox says it treats coccidiosis?


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

This is central London, you would be lucky to get permission to set up a chicken coup. The pet shops of for the sale of domestic pets only. Guinea pigs, Rabbits and pretty birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Baytril, which is what this med is similar to, is used to treat bacterial infections. It kills bacteria. Coccidia isn't a bacteria, and is usually treated with sulfa drugs.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I will have to do my best on monday to search some of the bigger pet shops in London for a sulfa medication. I hope she will last till then. She seems stronger, even picking a fight with smaller birds, but is getting thin fast. Her chest bone is poking right out.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You probably won't find it in a pet store. Do you not have grain stores where people can buy things for chickens?


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I will check some directories, but if there is anything like that it will be on the outskirts of London, there would be no custom in the center. Worst ways I will have to order some Sulfa medication from Medicanimal, who normally deliver quite fast, but it is all delay.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Chicken feed and supplies
http://club.omlet.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7533


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you, thats a nice list for me to start with.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Brian.

If you absolutely can't get the right meds anywhere else in time, I would suggest that you go to human doctor ASAP and ask for Bactrim or its equivalent in the UK. Spend a few moments on google and find out what sulfa antibiotic is available in the UK for humans (Bactim, Trimethoprim?), what ailment it treats, and tell the doctor you have that ailment, or you've been taking that antibiotic already and lost the pack. Just do what it takes to get the medicine. I've had to do this a few times and its the fastest way to save a bird in an emergency if you can't get the meds elsewhere (or affordably).

PS. Enroflox is like `enrofloxacin', which will treat Salmonella if your pigeon has it. I can't see anywhere we've you've had tests to confirm the illness, so its not a horrible idea to use the enroflox if you are totally out of other options. Enroflox won't treat coccidia and it may not work, but there's some chance it could. I personally find Salmonella to be a little more rare compared to coccidia and bacterial illnesses that respond to sulfa antibiotics, but that could mean nothing as we live in different parts of the world.

Anyway good luck, you can save this pigeon, but you have to act quickly. Also, with so many pigeon rescues, it would be a good investment for you to keep sulfa antibiotics & coccidia meds (ie amprolium) on hand in future...the amprolium is the best coccida medicine I've used, it works almost instantly. You can use it with enroflox when you suspect salmonella. Keeping these meds is worth the peace of mind knowing you don't have to watch these birds die from a perfectly curable disease. You can buy them very cheap on ebay from some of the Thai sellers.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you Bella_F, great information.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I am going to treat the sick bird with the Harkers 3-in-1, at least this medicine treats Coccidiosis. She is still ill this morning and has had constant green diarrhea and is very thin. I will start looking tomorrow when my money turns up for a sulfa based medicine, but I think the quickest route is going to be ordering it off the internet. Remember I am also ill so if I do not find it in the first couple of stores I will be too tired to keep searching. I may have to wait 4-5 days for delivery and I will be treating her with Harkers in the meantime.
I have seen no terrible reviews of Harkers ability, so I think it is worth the risk. The alternative could well be that this bird dies in the next couple of day.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

By the way the other tablets I have are Para tablets by Pharma Belgica de Weerd, not the parastop that I thought they were. I am trying to look them up now.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I can't find the ingredients for Para tabs, but I think it's the same thing. It treats the same things.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

What worries me is I am not seeing any improvement, so what I have given her so far is not hitting the spot. I know it is not good to switch medicines around, but from looking up symptoms I think the best thing I can give is a Harkers and Enroflox. Today will be the second dose of enroflox. Maybe I am expecting too much to soon, i don't know. I have had pigeons with green runny dropping before but they have never looked as ill as little lady.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

even now she is trying to eat, an sits on the bowl, but i do not think she is eating much. I don't know if to keep force feeding her?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It takes time for meds to work. You need to keep track of how much you give her, so you can tell how much she is eating. That or just hand feed. That way you know how much she is getting. Without enough food, she will only get weaker.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hmm..I'm not liking the look of the Harkers 3 in 1, Brian. It contains a wormer called fenbenadzole, which is know to be toxic to pigeons . If you search these forums, you'll see many cases of it causing death.

The medicine in the harkers 3-in-1 for coccidia is diclazuril, 2.5mg per dose. This is the right dosage for diclazuril, but I've never used it and can't vouch for it. The third ingredient is Ronidazole, and is great for canker. SO...it would eb risky giving this. What a shame it has that wormer in it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. Just checking a bit more into the Harker 3-in-1, the Dosage of Fenbenadzole is 8mg, to 2.5mg diclazuril. This is very much on the high side of the safety margin, and would only suit a healthy pigeon that weights 400-500 grams, and the pigeon may still die from the medicine. So, if it were me, even with the diclazuril in it for coccidia, the dose of the toxic wormer being so high would worry me a lot (having seen a bird die from fenbendazole personally).

Difficult call. I think there not going to be a shortcut for saving this bird- it needs sulfa medecine



> Remember I am also ill so if I do not find it in the first couple of stores I will be too tired to keep searching. I may have to wait 4-5 days for delivery


I don't understand, why don't you call these stores and find out if they have what you need, instead of visiting them to find out? A few phone calls couldn't cause that much fatigue? I'm not understanding you- do you want to help this pigeon or not?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hmm..I'm not liking the look of the Harkers 3 in 1, Brian.* It contains a wormer called fenbenadzole, which is know to be toxic to pigeons .* If you search these forums, you'll see many cases of it causing death.
> 
> The medicine in the harkers 3-in-1 for coccidia is diclazuril, 2.5mg per dose. This is the right dosage for diclazuril, but I've never used it and can't vouch for it. The third ingredient is Ronidazole, and is great for canker. SO...it would eb risky giving this. What a shame it has that wormer in it.


Bella,
Good that you found out about the fenbendazole being in it. I didn't realize it had that. 
Bella is correct in that fenbendazole is very toxic to pigeons. Many have died from it. Just not worth treating the bird with it.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

this is not the usa Bella, the companies over here still charge a lot for phone calls. I just received a phone bill for £80 (including internet) for this month. I have to be careful with everything I spend, it is so easy to waste money. I could take transport to all the shops, but public transport over here is also expensive.

On a more positive note, I am now looking up the Coccidia medicine mentioned. I will look for the quickest root for delivery. She is staying close to the hot water bottles I am making for her, but she seems a little stronger, she seems to perk up a bit every few hours and starts eating. Hopefully a good sign.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Harkers Coxoid? would that be a good form of Amprolium? I can afford that one just, and that should last a while. Ill just have a bit more of a look to see what other options there are.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Harkers Coxoid on its way, I have paid a little extra for 2 day delivery. I hope she will last. This is a water treatment so i will probably treat them all to be on the safe side.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Brian, Yes Coxoid will be good for Coccidia, if your pigeon has it. 
I live in Australia, not the USA.

Brian you seem like a good person, but I don't see how making a couple of phone calls to save this pigeon's life could be such a huge financial burden. Also, ordering mail order medicine at this late stage seems like a strange & depressing decision, when you could have just picked up the phone and found someone local who stocks what you need. 

I hope the pigeon can hold on too. All these delays with getting meds, and the justifications you've make for avoiding taking action, are very bad for a sick pigeon, and they are upsetting.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

No there is definitely no one local. Sorry I thought you had read above. The pet shops in central london only have simple medication and animal vitamins. Things like flea treatment. I would have to travel to the outskirts of london to find the first likely shop something that is going to take a good part of the day and that is assuming the first place has what I need. I would have to spend a lot of money of travel as well, its just totally impractical.

We have had some improvement this morning. She is walking about but is having trouble using her legs, but she looks and acts stronger. I am feeding her some baby pigeon food mix. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

There is much less green poop in the cage today. I have her out to walk about but have kept her separate from the others. She is wobbly on her legs and is obviously weak, but is looking better. I continue to feed her extra baby food and she eats a little by herself.

I have bathed all the other birds in permethrin, but some of them continue to look a little on the rough side so I think it is a good idea that they are all treated with the coxoid when it arrives.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

She making good if slow progress.

I have one more question related to this matter. The coxoid has arrived and I was going to treat the water of all the birds. There is no urgency about this, but some of the birds have mild green poop which does not seem to be affecting their health. The thing is the 2 babies are just starting to come out on their own. I think they are too young for the coxoid treatment, so I cannot treat the water in case they drink it. Is this correct? or is the coxoid so mild that I don't need to worry about the babies?

Thank you,
Brian.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes, trust Charis and Bella, they really have solid advice and every rehab I have done, Charis has been absolutely spot on in her advice and help. Pepto Bismal, a.s.a.p.!ol and good luck, BHenderson, with the pijjie! P.S. Charis often recommends small, thawed sweet peas, 50-70 as a good force feed product, plus, the bird gets water this way as well, and after practice, you can do it quite easily and quickly.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

BHenderson, you could contact Pigeon & Dove Rescue in the Uk as there may be someone on there that will be in your area and willing to provide you with meds you need. There is a member on here called Feefo (Cynthia) and also John D. on this site, who are the administrators of that site in UK and can help you. They will also know where, close to you, someone may be able and willing to come and get the bird and take it to a vet or santuary for treatment, or rehab it themselves. Hope this info helps you.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes, Bella, Fenbenadzole killed one rehabbing crow and 2 of my pigeons when given by a Vet! My advice: DO NOT USE IT - EVER!! LOL


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Well she looked shaky for a couple of days but is now eating, she is a little on the quiet side, but I think she is over whatever was infecting her and she just needs to build her strength and weight back up now.

I must admit in view of the information I have been given about how much wormer is in the Harkers 3-in-1 I would not use it in a situation like this, it is only for pigeons that are otherwise well and strong and not underweight. This pigeon did look shaky on her legs the following day and I think the Harkers caused that because she was standing ok the day before.

One of the main problems you get with pigeon sites is conflicting advice, I was advised that because I was short of money the harkers was a good buy, it now looks like I must buy all these medications separately. Its hard to know what to do.

I don't think I am believed about there not being shops in London where I can go to purchase pigeon medicine. If anyone is able to find a shop, no one will be more pleased than me. It would help a great deal in emergencies. The shops that I have been told about are on the outskirts of London, and London is big and it costs a lot of money to get there. In fact I would probably spend more money on the fare than the medicine.

Thanks,
Brian.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Brian, I realy dont think a lot of people can relate to how different life is in the Cities in the UK than it is in a lot of other places, especially the US.
Regulations for any meds, human or vetenary, are extremely strict and also over the last 10 - 15 years, because of certain regulations & conditions on sale of pets, there has been a sharp decline in small specialised "pet" shops, which also means outlets and contacts for such things have become non existant apart from online. (There is also things being discussed in parliament at the moment to make it ilegal to buy/import what would normally be prescribed meds from abroad)
The larger "chain style" pet stores cater mainly for dogs, cats, mice, rats, hamsters, gerbils, fish, some reptiles and brds such as budgies & parrots and thats it. (Although Pets at Home have recently started stocking a few things for chickens) 
They do have things for worms & mites etc however they do not sell meds for any illnesses as such. These MUST be got throug a vet. 
Even fish meds, some of which can help birds, are just not freely availlable to buy direct.
The multi-in-one type meds that you can get from some sources are only availlable because they are not considered "prescriptional" purely for the reason that the content of them does not contain enough of any particular drug to warrant a prescription. That being the case, it is obvious it wont contain enough of any med to actually help a sick bird.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Ah, I'm glad there is someone to help explain. Cities in the US must have shops that cater for people keeping chickens and similar animals, it must be more common in the US to keep chickens? In any case, as you know, it is quite rare to find people who keep chickens in the cities over here.

Thank you Quazar,
Brian.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Something I have just noticed. I was trying to examine the pigeons feet to see if I had got all the nylon off, and I used my torch. If you shine the torch directly under the feet, you can see if there are any dark threads there. I was pleased that I could not see any dark thread. There are some very powerful 1.5 and 2 million candle torches on ebay for about £10-£12, and I am going to try an get one. I think the more powerful the light the better chance you have of seeing any thread. This is an injury I get often so I think it is worth the cost of a good torch.

Brian.

P.s. In view of the swollen infected toe that looks very painful, I have given her a dose of Enroflox plus the antibiotic cream. The nylon went so deep on that toe that I am surprised it has not gone black, but it is going to take time for the blood supply to return to normal. I have also given her another dose of Tramadol, although this may slow the healing a little, the toes are hot and swollen and obviously painful, and I think she deserves a little pain relief.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Brian, beware of a lot of those torches.
They are cheap chinese/taiwan made copies and are nothing more than crap.
Halfords do sell good ones, ranging between £9.99 and £29.99.
They are all re-chargeable but most of the cheap ones have cheap batteries inside which do not hold a charge for long, and are made of inferior components.
I have 2, one was a present bought in halfords a few years ago and still going strong.
The other was a cheap one and although gave a much brighter & stronger light, after 2nd charging has never worked since.
Took it apart to see what was wrong, clips that held battery in place had disintegrated & battery was leaking everywhere.

Other thing to be careful of with those high power torches is NEVER look directly into them and dont keep them on for a prolonged period (They do get very hot & plastic can melt, even in the good ones)


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for the info, you are probably right I should buy a good quality torch. I wanted a powerful torch because you can literally shine it through the flesh and see if there is a piece of thread or nylon there. It put my mind at rest because I was not sure I had removed all the nylon. The torch I used was not that powerful though, so perhaps I am going for something I don't really need.

By the way, I don't know if you realised, but I meant to post this to the other thread where I am talking about the latest bird I brought in with nylon round its feet. I will post this again there as I want them to see that I did take the advice and used some Enroflox. Thanks for the info though.

Brian.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Here in Canada, we also have so many restrictions about drugs in pet shops and even restrictions on vets handing it out that it is near impossible to get anything to help care for a pigeon. So I hear you Quasar and BHenderson, on restrictions being tougher in countries Like England and Canada. Even to get Sevin, I had to try a feed/poultry supplier who has a FEW things for CHICKENS but not many. Most, it is by VET ONLY. lol


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Getting things by vet would not be such a problem if I could find a vet near by who would help. I don't mind paying for the medicine, but if you go to a private vet, they will probably help you but at a high price. I end up just looking around the internet for shops that are prepared to send items to me, or hope that they do not realise they are not supposed to send the items.
I am especially frustrated in this regard when it comes to pain killer, pigeons deserve pain killing medication too, especially if you have had to remove painful thread from their feet.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes, I have the same problem, we have only the one vet hospital for birds in vancouver, and she is the only one who will give pain killer firstly to an injured bird, she is the only vet that actually KNOWS anything about birds. You may be able to get some sort of thing for pain from a feed lot that supplys stuff for chickens, other than that, we in countries with stringent laws regarding pet meds are rather Knackered, unfortunately lol


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I have resorted to using opiate painkillers such as tramadol, which vets use for animals generally. I only use it where the pain is obviously strong, and I try not to use it for more than a couple of days. Pigeons are tough old birds and deal with pain well, but I see no reason why they should not have help when there is obvious extreme pain involved.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

Well, as long as you do not overdose. Do you base the amount of opiate on the weight of the pigeon? You are right that pigeons seem to be able to take allot of pain. I have seen vidoes of very injured pigeons still pecking at seed as if okay, when they are obviously not. lol


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