# Best Grizzles



## hillfamilyloft

Who has the best Grizzles around. Looking for something that looks good and wins the sprint races. Always wanted a pair. My family is weakest at the sprints. thought If I found a grizzle pair that wins sprint races, I could kill two cats with one stone. Looking at the Jos thone grizzles got me inspired they are his sprint birds. Don't like breeding for color, but some of us have our weakness.


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## fresnobirdman

What about that white bandit line?
is that still around?


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## hillfamilyloft

http://www.pipa.be/sites/pipa/files/auction_lists/thone_auction_list_en.pdf

Jos is also selling out to China and starting over. Must be nice to sell your birds and be set for life. I would think he might set the record with this auction. I think 3 million Euro might be the mark. We will see with the economy.


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## hillfamilyloft

would like to find some grizzles that a backyard fancier is winning with and make a trade. Just want a cock and a hen. Kind of like Warren's Vanilla Ice. A bird that looks too pretty to race that kicks the crud out of all the others.


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## hillfamilyloft

Maybe I will bid a $100 on Thone's Avril bird.


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## hillfamilyloft

fresnobirdman said:


> What about that white bandit line?
> is that still around?


I do not want something everybody and their dog bought from Ganus or CBS. I want a proven family. Might even find one good one and cross it in with birds of mine. Then isolating the Grizzles into their own family.


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## Matt Bell

There is a guy I used to fly against, his name is Daryl Roehrman, lives in Dodge City, KS. Has some very good grizzles. He hasn't flown the last couple of years since his daughter left to go to college, she used to help him a lot with the training and such. The problem, is that his birds are best for middle and long distance races. He would win sprint races but he absolutely killed in the middle/long distance. Another thing is that the course we would fly was a very fast course, not unusual to have 1800+ ypm races, so even the longer events were fast. They might work for what you are wanting. Before I was flying, he was partnered with Deon Trent, and they had D and D lofts, maybe you have heard of them before. I know that the base of his birds are Stassarts and some Sions, he prefers the Stassarts over the Sions, in his words because they don't need to be flown to death to get in shape. He has the opinion that the Sions put on weight much more easliy and its more work for him to get them in racing shape.


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## Action

*White bandit!*

I have some white bandit birds! I have a 98 daughter that I am now trying to pair her with a 2010 great grandson of the white bandit. Don't really know what I am doing but just trying to keep the blood alive with what I have. I also have 1 Grandson (******) of the white Bandit. Last year i paired her with ****** but had 2 non furtle eggs. So this year I am trying her with a 2010 Great grandson (****** son) and see what happens. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Sorry a little of topic!
Jack


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## fresnobirdman

hillfamilyloft said:


> I do not want something everybody and their dog bought from Ganus or CBS. I want a proven family. Might even find one good one and cross it in with birds of mine. Then isolating the Grizzles into their own family.



White Bandit isn't bough by cbs or ganus.
White Bandit was bought by Chick Brooks in Fresno.


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## Action

*White Bandit!*

Yes Hapyco has the bandit blood but I also think Hanns has some also.
Jack


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## Action

*Hanns!*

Get a hold of Matt Hans he has some bad [email protected]@ grizzles and is also a really good guy.
Jack


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## JaxRacingLofts

If your not looking to spend alot of money and want some nice looking grizzles to race for free (less the cost of shipping) check out the thread in the birds wanted section from Tony Hefner aka Cabin Loft. I think its become cliché' now that sometimes the best birds you will ever have will be the ones given to you. I won't repost all the pics but here are some grizzles he gave me as ybs all grown up now:


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## ace in the hole

Tony Hefner's Grizzles Are not what You are looking for. They are bred from an unproven cross. The father flew as a young bird but never in good time. The mother is a long distance hen that also flew only as a young bird with no great results. I bred from the father one season and all of his young were lost. Everything else he is breeding from are untested and unproven birds. That is why they are free birds.

Ace


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## JaxRacingLofts

ace in the hole said:


> Tony Hefner's Grizzles Are not what You are looking for. They are bred from an unproven cross. The father flew as a young bird but never in good time. The mother is a long distance hen that also flew only as a young bird with no great results. I bred from the father one season and all of his young were lost. Everything else he is breeding from are untested and unproven birds. That is why they are free birds.
> 
> Ace


Thats cute..you probably sold the father to him as off of "your best" and now the truth comes out. I don't know what birds he used to breed these grizzles but I can tell you they handle great. these birds have not flown this year and they each have that natural "bouncy", they feel strong in the hand, the tail is a touch wider then I like, vents are good and the wings "hand" has a nice step between the 10th and 7th flights. All this doesn't make them superb race birds..but they passed my 2nd round of culling birds for auction.
Like the saying goes you learn something new everyday. Now that I know theres a good chance these could just be show birds. I won't breed from them until after old bird season.


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## First To Hatch

Looks like everyone forgot to mention Dennis Kuhn http://www.whiteracers.20m.com/index.html although most of these birds seem to be the middle distance type. I would give you the number of my mentor but his whites are all long distance and middle distance, basically hes an old bird racer. 
http://www.skylakesions.com/ you can buy a bird for next year or there are some 2010 banded ones in the for sale section and an 05 bird for sale in the specials section as well.


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## ace in the hole

jAxTecH said:


> Thats cute..you probably sold the father to him as off of "your best" and now the truth comes out.


I told him what they were and were they came from and that I had no peds or other information on them. They were nice looking birds and produced nice looking birds but until these young are tested you have no idea what they will do as racers. But I'm sure with all of your years of racing experiance you can tell by looking at them and holding them.

I never said they would not or could not produce some good birds. I just stated what they were from and that they were not what Randy was looking for. He stated he was looking for speed birds from a good proven line.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

looking to fill a niche. The need for speed. Oh yea and good looks. One reason I do not have girzzles now is that I have not found birds that fill this niche. I have noticed in the last few years that my bird will show in the first few races, but not win. 200-400 I can expect them to win. We have a guy in the club that is automatic at 150 miles. I want something that will dethrone him. If not a grizzle then ok. Just thought I might find both. I know that many just like the birds because of looks. The race record comes second. I am not wanting that. I appreciate the offers and honesty. Don't get in a war over it. It is what it is. Those birds are very good looking. I need birds off proven sprint racers. Ex. Thone's Avril minus the 50K euros.


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## hillfamilyloft

jaxTech
Race from those Grizzles a season against what I sent you the other day and see how they do. If they are as good, I just might take you up on your generous offer. They are good looking birds. I have a general rule of thumb. Nothing comes in the loft that cannot beat what I already have. ACE is an honest guy that does not sugar coat things. He is on the same mission that I am. We swap birds, He has sold or given away birds that I have sent him. Knowing his mission, I understand. He has also kept a few that breed winners. I test his birds and keep the birds that can beat or race with mine. This is how it is if you want to reach the top. I am bringing one bird in this year. She beat 364 birds in the club by 7 minutes. I want more of these.


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## hillfamilyloft

I purchased a Marcelis hen two years ago. She was an old hen and I was only able to get one egg off her. I will be breeding from the cock this year. I am hoping this is my foundation of my sprint blood. She was crossed with my Engels hen. Was thinking of working something into this bird. Not sure what it will produce, but with your grandfather a Nat. Bourgues winner against 13K birds it might have a chance. Marcelis was the speed master. Need something that will beat the Koopmans in the club.


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## JaxRacingLofts

hillfamilyloft said:


> jaxTech
> Race from those Grizzles a season against what I sent you the other day and see how they do. If they are as good, I just might take you up on your generous offer. They are good looking birds. I have a general rule of thumb. Nothing comes in the loft that cannot beat what I already have. ACE is an honest guy that does not sugar coat things. He is on the same mission that I am. We swap birds, He has sold or given away birds that I have sent him. Knowing his mission, I understand. He has also kept a few that breed winners. I test his birds and keep the birds that can beat or race with mine. This is how it is if you want to reach the top. I am bringing one bird in this year. She beat 364 birds in the club by 7 minutes. I want more of these.



I would if it was that simple. The birds from your auction are now prisoners in my breeding pens. I don't understand or want to know why a "performance" loft would breed from a bird that couldn't win a race and always came in late.(Those eggs should of been tossed) I wasn't able to afford a Unikon system this summer otherwise these birds along with the others I have would of all raced last Yb season. I am thinking of changing my loft name to "Flight Club" and if its a birds first year in "Flight Club" it will have to fly. I'm no longer going off of peoples so called best. The only pedigree that will matter to me now is if that bird can race and win. I will still hold back key breeders in a dedicated loft separate from my teams..but my new years resolution is to get out of the prisoner business.


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## hillfamilyloft

I meant the babies off of them. I agree with you. Breed from them all and test them from the basket. I guarantee I did not send you junk birds. Not only do they have pretty peds they have brothers and sisters that have won and their parents breed top birds every year. If you don't want prisoners, breed from them and then share the wealth and keep and fly the babies. If you want to put a monetary value on the birds, Vic Miller gets about 1500 a bird. Vern purchased 7090 in the Peds for $1900. The Engels cock was $300, GFL 745 and GFL 360 were $2000 a piece. They all have Produced 1st place birds. The offspring do the same. These are not culls.


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## hillfamilyloft

The "08" bird that you see in the pedigrees is off two "World of Wings" birds from Bob Kinney. Some interesting reading is the "Good Sumartian" article in the links of my webpage. "08" has about every key bird Bob mentions in the article. Being as he won the South African Million Dollar race and finished top 10 the next year his birds were worth a few grand each. "08" was a steal at $250 for 25 bands. "08" bred 15th Vegas crap shoot the first year. The second she bred 2nd Snake River Challenge. I got two hens off of her and a cock. One bred my futurity winner and Buzz who bred a Bond Winner and a 300 miles winner. The Cock Sired and Buzz Grand sired our 3rd in our futurity 300 mile last year. I am breeding 7 hens and 5 cocks off these two hens. All I say is breed from them and see what they do for you.


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## MaryOfExeter

Well then I guess I could offer you the same  One of the top guys in our combine just gave me a nice pair of grizzles. He gave me a lot of birds so I can't remember what exactly he told me about them, but I do remember they were racers and their brothers and sisters have also done very well. One of my best breeding hens is also a grizzle. I know that isn't much coming from me, but I do have a ton of faith in her. She's already given me a 1st place in the club, and a consistant bird in California. The cali bird hasn't won anything yet, but it comes home in good time and flew two 500's as a yearling.
Including her and the pair I mentioned before, I have 6 grizzle breeders and 8 grizzle OBs that will give me a round before they race.
So I guess I'll see if my grizzles can beat the ones I breed from yours. If they do, you (or anyone else really) are welcome to try out mine too.


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## hillfamilyloft

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well then I guess I could offer you the same  One of the top guys in our combine just gave me a nice pair of grizzles. He gave me a lot of birds so I can't remember what exactly he told me about them, but I do remember they were racers and their brothers and sisters have also done very well. One of my best breeding hens is also a grizzle. I know that isn't much coming from me, but I do have a ton of faith in her. She's already given me a 1st place in the club, and a consistant bird in California. The cali bird hasn't won anything yet, but it comes home in good time and flew two 500's as a yearling.
> Including her and the pair I mentioned before, I have 6 grizzle breeders and 8 grizzle OBs that will give me a round before they race.
> So I guess I'll see if my grizzles can beat the ones I breed from yours. If they do, you (or anyone else really) are welcome to try out mine too.


Thanks for the offer. You already have proven what they can do in Cali. I am looking for a couple that can win 100 to 150. If they win at 300 that is a bonus. I may bring in one Grizzle and breed it into on of my splash birds. Becky if I do that what % and sex will be Grizzle birds? Still looking for speed.


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## MaryOfExeter

Any heterozygous grizzle (more color) with a normal colored bird (even a splash) will give you about half and half with both sexes.
Any pure grizzle (stork marks, sometimes pure white in ash-reds) with a normal colored bird will give you all grizzles (homozygous).


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## JaxRacingLofts

hillfamilyloft said:


> I meant the babies off of them. I agree with you. Breed from them all and test them from the basket. I guarantee I did not send you junk birds. Not only do they have pretty peds they have brothers and sisters that have won and their parents breed top birds every year. If you don't want prisoners, breed from them and then share the wealth and keep and fly the babies. If you want to put a monetary value on the birds, Vic Miller gets about 1500 a bird. Vern purchased 7090 in the Peds for $1900. The Engels cock was $300, GFL 745 and GFL 360 were $2000 a piece. They all have Produced 1st place birds. The offspring do the same. These are not culls.


I really like the birds you sent me at first my eye was on the blue check cock but after handling them I realized the real prize is the 2 hens. They are sweet and they feel "right" only way I can describe it. They put a big ear to ear smile on my face. I did not mean to imply anything negative about your birds but was stating as a general rule for me, In 2011 everything in my Loft and Aviary will be flown. Obviously thats not possible with the older breeders I have. 
As far as the grizzles go I was suspect like everyone else of "free" birds. After talking with Tony Hefner he told me he paid good money for the birds he bought from Mark Raymond. I could go through and re-read all the e-mails and drag this out but at the end of the day the jokes on me because slick sold a dud cock to Tony and now I have pretty birds that can't find their way home.


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## MaryOfExeter

It seems like most grizzles are more for middle and long distances. I wonder why?  The coloration can easily take over your loft since it's dominant. Perhaps it came from the Dragoons? A lot of Dragoons are grizzled I think. And back when they were creating the racers, the Dragoons were added for long distance ability.


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## hillfamilyloft

MaryOfExeter said:


> Any homozygous grizzle (more color) with a normal colored bird (even a splash) will give you about half and half with both sexes.
> Any pure grizzle (stork marks, sometimes pure white in ash-reds) with a normal colored bird will give you all grizzles (homozygous).


So all I really need is one good grizzle bird (homozygous). That way I could cross it in with my speedier birds. Have you bred your 1st place winner and what milage did it win? Maybe I sould be looking for something to just colorize what I have. My goal is not to diminish race results for color. I find many fanciers do that because they want pretty birds. I do have a couple of birds that throw splash birds. Maurader is one. She is mated to Buzz. She is off Scott McCallister's Snow bird winning blood. The white does not slow them down. 1171's Dam and sister are a splash birds. She may throw some white. The Hen in auction 1 is also splash off of Buzz.


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## hillfamilyloft

jAxTecH said:


> I really like the birds you sent me at first my eye was on the blue check cock but after handling them I realized the real prize is the 2 hens. They are sweet and they feel "right" only way I can describe it. They put a big ear to ear smile on my face. I did not mean to imply anything negative about your birds but was stating as a general rule for me, In 2011 everything in my Loft and Aviary will be flown. Obviously thats not possible with the older breeders I have.
> As far as the grizzles go I was suspect like everyone else of "free" birds. After talking with Tony Hefner he told me he paid good money for the birds he bought from Mark Raymond. I could go through and re-read all the e-mails and drag this out but at the end of the day the jokes on me because he sold a dud cock to Tony and now I have pretty birds that can't find their way home.


The two hens are off of Rose. She is the best looking bird in my loft. The best looking cock bird in the loft was the SLI bird that bred the two cocks. He was on loan. He goes back to Ludo birds. I bred the cocks brother this year and will keep in in the loft. He bred 3rd 252 miles 364 birds 1566ypm. 
You never know those grizzles might win a race. Never know until you fly them. I have a hen 180 that does not have a ped. Used her for a pumper. Let her raise two birds on year. I sent them to GrandJunction One one a 250 and was 9th at 500 as an old bird. Needless to say she has bred every year since. She is a Vic Miller bird. Should have known. Last year she bred a 9th this year a 18th. Her babies earn points.


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## MaryOfExeter

My 1st place winner was at 144 miles. But of course I lost both of my winners before I could breed them  Wonderful luck there. I'm guessing hawks got them. Anyway, that bird was out of 626, my grizzle hen, mated to a cock that I no longer have. Then I mated her to a SVR cock (the dad of my other winner), which produced the Cali bird. That SVR was killed by that dog, so now I have her mated to yet another cock  which is also a SVR (half brother to the previous one I believe). I have a good feeling about this pairing too. I think she's just a good bird no matter who you put her with  



WHOOPS. I meant heterozygous will give you half and half.

But yes, one homozygous bird will give you all grizzle babies. But even if you were to just get a het grizzle bird, you'd still get a decent amount of grizzles. That's what 626 is and I've only gotten a couple non-grizzles from her.


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## MaryOfExeter

jAxTecH said:


> I really like the birds you sent me at first my eye was on the blue check cock but after handling them I realized the real prize is the 2 hens. They are sweet and they feel "right" only way I can describe it. They put a big ear to ear smile on my face. I did not mean to imply anything negative about your birds but was stating as a general rule for me, In 2011 everything in my Loft and Aviary will be flown. Obviously thats not possible with the older breeders I have.
> As far as the grizzles go I was suspect like everyone else of "free" birds. After talking with Tony Hefner he told me he paid good money for the birds he bought from Mark Raymond. I could go through and re-read all the e-mails and drag this out but at the end of the day the jokes on me because slick sold a dud cock to Tony and now I have pretty birds that can't find their way home.


Now you don't know that yet. They might turn out to be decent birds. Even though it doesn't look very good for them, they still need a chance  You just can't necessarily recommend them to anyone yet.


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## hillfamilyloft

you should post a pic of 626. She may be the ticket to get a bird off of. I color only uses one pair of allels, a hetero cross with a normal color bird should produce 50% Grizzle birds. I do not think that only one pair dictates colors with all the splashes etc. Need to read up.


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## JaxRacingLofts

MaryOfExeter said:


> Now you don't know that yet. They might turn out to be decent birds. Even though it doesn't look very good for them, they still need a chance  You just can't necessarily recommend them to anyone yet.


My first mission as soon as I finish trap training them and they route for over 1 hr is going to take them and the Riley Robert birds out 40mi. Whatever makes it back will go into 3x a week road training for old bird season. Win loose or draw I will see for myself if these birds can make the cut.


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## MaryOfExeter




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## hillfamilyloft

she is a good looking bird


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## Cabin Loft

ace in the hole said:


> Tony Hefner's Grizzles Are not what You are looking for. They are bred from an unproven cross. The father flew as a young bird but never in good time. The mother is a long distance hen that also flew only as a young bird with no great results. I bred from the father one season and all of his young were lost. Everything else he is breeding from are untested and unproven birds. That is why they are free birds.
> 
> Ace



Mark, why would you lie to me? You told me that you got that bird from a pigeon owner who raced him from the Chicago area. You told me that bird flew all that year but you didn't know anything about Cock bird # 690 (2007) other then he came from good proven stock. Why would you sell me a cull bird in the first place and tell someone else that my birds are unproven? Of course my birds are unproven except for the ones you sold to me and showed me their race record. I hope the race record weren't forge in anyway. Matter of fact you wanted me to give you back (2) of the biggest hens out of (4) hens that hen bird # 5406 produced for me in "2009". You wanted the best of the (4) hens. You never offered me any money or offered to even pay for the shipping. You even emailed me after I paid for all the shipping and driving distance and referred my birds as your own birds and told me not to give the offspring to anyone other then the people you wanted to have the birds. I did breed that cock bird # 690 to a good grizzle hen out of good proven racing stock. Then their offspring's I bred to the white cock bird # 1091 (2006) and the proven red and white grizzle hen # 5417 (2008). If the information you put on Pigeon-Talk is true then you have wasted my time and efforts. 
If anyone knows anything about this grizzle cock # 690 (2007), or the parents please contact me. The information I am giving about my birds are from the emails I have received from Mark Raymond. I don't want to pass lies off to other racing fanciers or anyone else. 
Thank you,
Tony Hefner 
www.torchlake.com/hefner


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## Matt Bell

HillFamilyLoft;

I started a project that was much longer and more arduous than I wanted to do for you, lol. I started going through the AU database to see who was winning fast races with grizzles...got in a heck of a mess with some clubs being posted, then their combine, then their federation, etc etc. Anyways, if you wanted to put in that much effort it may prove valuable.


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## RodSD

Cabin Loft said:


> Mark, why would you lie to me? You told me that you got that bird from a pigeon owner who raced him from the Chicago area. You told me that bird flew all that year but you didn't know anything about Cock bird # 690 (2007) other then he came from good proven stock. Why would you sell me a cull bird in the first place and tell someone else that my birds are unproven? Of course my birds are unproven except for the ones you sold to me and showed me their race record. I hope the race record weren't forge in anyway. Matter of fact you wanted me to give you back (2) of the biggest hens out of (4) hens that hen bird # 5406 produced for me in "2009". You wanted the best of the (4) hens. You never offered me any money or offered to even pay for the shipping. You even emailed me after I paid for all the shipping and driving distance and referred my birds as your own birds and told me not to give the offspring to anyone other then the people you wanted to have the birds. I did breed that cock bird # 690 to a good grizzle hen out of good proven racing stock. Then their offspring's I bred to the white cock bird # 1091 (2006) and the proven red and white grizzle hen # 5417 (2008). If the information you put on Pigeon-Talk is true then you have wasted my time and efforts.
> If anyone knows anything about this grizzle cock # 690 (2007), or the parents please contact me. The information I am giving about my birds are from the emails I have received from Mark Raymond. I don't want to pass lies off to other racing fanciers or anyone else.
> Thank you,
> Tony Hefner
> www.torchlake.com/hefner


I am interested to know the full story on this. Unproven birds don't necessarily mean that they are culls. They probably are just not raced. The problem with pigeons is that breeding them is like playing lotto. Pairing good birds may turn out junk and vice versa. But breeding good birds may increase the chance of getting good birds.


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## fresnobirdman

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=82634

Hey, hillfamilyloft, maybe this is a good start, work you way up like a true Super Champion.


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## Melsloft

*Grizzles*

the grizzles in this family have already scored for us their 1st year breeding in the US.........overseas in HOLLAND they dominate..........


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## MaryOfExeter

Melsloft said:


> the grizzles in this family have already scored for us their 1st year breeding in the US.........overseas in HOLLAND they dominate..........


Beautiful grizzles! How much are you going to sell kids for?


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## MaryOfExeter

fresnobirdman said:


> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=82634
> 
> Hey, hillfamilyloft, maybe this is a good start, work you way up like a true Super Champion.


It'd be nice to find a bird who isn't bred for stock, out of birds that were bred for stock. And it doesn't mention anything about any of its siblings having success 


Here's a cute little hen that's a proven breeder apparently. But GFL bred 
http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=82350

Pretty impressive siblings of this guy:
http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=82587


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## Melsloft

*Grizzles*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Beautiful grizzles! How much are you going to sell kids for?


These are on the high end $2000 each out of the nest,,, they are FULL brother sister off the FOUNDATION cock( "DE ONGERINGDE" ) who is now dead,, both have bred winners in HOLLAND,, the hen has bred several great performers like:

THIS 100% TOURNIER COCK IS FATHER AND GRAND FATHER TO MANY 1ST PRIZE WINNERS AND ACE WINNERS! HE IS WITHOUT ANY DOUBT ONE OF THE BEST BREEDERS IN DISTRICT 12 "DE KUSTTROOKK" EVER...DE ONGERINGDE HAS NOW PASSED AWAY SO THEY ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE OFF THE OLD COCK. WE IMPORTED TWO OF HIS BEST CHILDREN MISS WONDERFUL AND MR WONDERFUL,, BOTH HAVE BRED WINNERS AGAINST THOUSANDS!!!! ONE EXAMPLE MS WONDERFUL BRED:
NL-05-1297912
CHANTILLY 2/5624
DUFFEL 1/2103
STROMBEEK 30/2132
CHANTILLY 138/4525
STROMBEEK 62/1881

ANOTHER DTR OF MS WONDERFUL WON STROMBEEK 4/1881 !!!

and its not just birds off the foundation cock that have bred winners or raced winners,, one of thge NATIONAL winners was a grandson winning BELOW: HIS NAME IS 
E DIJK"

PS MAXENCE 1/4131
MENEN 5/14685
PS MAXENCE 4/6754
STROMBEEK 12/14340
STROMBEEK 16/10752
PERONNE 26/15603
BR. LE VERT 34/10195
PS MAXENCE 17/4153
CHANTILLY 29/5458
AALST 79/12986
AND WE HAVE DIRCET CHILDREN OFF HIM AS WELL!

honest I could fill pages of results from the cock alone 4-5 generations and still adding!

WE HAVE A FULL COLLECTION ONLY THE BEST OF THE BEST INCLUDING KEY BREEDERS AND RACERS,,, ON THEIR 1ST YEAR BREEDING THEY BRED US 1ST WINS STRAIGHT AND CROSSED,, BUT TEH HIGHLITE WAS A STRAIGHT ONE WE NOW CALL
TRIPLE XXX
WINNING 1ST @100, 1ST @200, 1ST @300 AND AVERAGE SPEED IN
TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS!


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## Pigeon0446

MaryOfExeter said:


> It'd be nice to find a bird who isn't bred for stock, out of birds that were bred for stock. And it doesn't mention anything about any of its siblings having success
> 
> 
> Here's a cute little hen that's a proven breeder apparently. But GFL bred
> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=82350
> 
> Pretty impressive siblings of this guy:
> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=82587


I saw the hen last night I thought she was pretty nice I was gonna post a link but I got side tracked. The second one with all the winning brothers. I'd be a lil skeptical about I've looked at that guys race records and he does really good with a whole bunch of birds each week. So idk how much of it is the birds and how much of it is the way he handles the birds. He might just be able to get the best out of his birds. I always try to buy birds from the auction for my clubs Great South Bay Classic. I look for the birds who flew good through the season with guys I know aren't the best handlers. I figure if the birds did good for them they'll do better for me and it seams to be the case as I've raised diploma birds out of all the birds I've bought at that auction. I'll try for a bird who flew good for a guy I know is a better handler then me but I'd rather have the one who was good for a guy who isn't a good handler. We all know those guy who could have the best birds and mess them up well I want the bird that that they couldn't mess up.


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## hillfamilyloft

Melsloft
Those birds look great. Was looking more at trading my best for a few, not mortgaging the house. I have birds in the loft off of $2000 birds, but am not looking to spend that much. I also have a daughter of a National Bourges winner against 13K birds. I am sure they are beautiful birds. I would be looking for a new wife if I spent 2K on a bird.


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## Melsloft

*Grizles*



hillfamilyloft said:


> Melsloft
> Those birds look great. Was looking more at trading my best for a few, not mortgaging the house. I have birds in the loft off of $2000 birds, but am not looking to spend that much. I also have a daughter of a National Bourges winner against 13K birds. I am sure they are beautiful birds. I would be looking for a new wife if I spent 2K on a bird.


I can totally relate with you! my wife always gives me the eye when the post man comes with boxes of birds  but she enjoys the little rewards in return


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## hillfamilyloft

I need an education on color genetics related to Grizzles. I am sure Becky will come to my rescue. If I find a nice grizzle cock homogenius and cross him into my normal Blue homogenius colored bird, will I get all Heterogenius grizzle birds? I am thinking grizzle is dominant. If so I only need one quality grizzle bird to have grizzles in the loft. This way I can bring in one bird and cross it with a nice producing hen. Can someone give me some insight. Anywhere I can read up on this.


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## MaryOfExeter

Yes, grizzle is dominant. So you are right


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## hillfamilyloft

may have found my grizzles today. I dropped some birds off today and was looking over the guys new breeding loft. He has a hen from me that was 3rd at 200miles and returned as an old bird from 500 next day. She is off one of my very good pairings. He is breeding her to a WOW Grizzle that also returned with her on the 500. The family flies well for him. Thinking this might be an all around bird with half my stock. The cock is Homogenius for Grizzle the hen is a BB. He is going to race all the offspring and let me pick one of the grizzles at the end of the season if it flies well.


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## MaryOfExeter

Good deal!  I have tons of grizzles in the YB loft. With 7 grizzle breeders and 7 grizzle OBs (I let my OBs raise a round. Or two, since I'm not racing OBs this year AGAIN ), I had a lot of'em this year.


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## hillfamilyloft

I have had a lot of great offers for Grizzles. Hard to pass them up. One thing I keep in mind is that the bird or birds I bring in have to be as good or better than what I have. I am breeding from 20 pairs this year and want to cut back to about 16 pairs next year. That is riding myself of 4 pairs that are good birds. Most will have produced points birds. To bring in a bird just based on color is not fair to the birds that have produced good fliers. The birds that I am thinking of bringing in will be off a bird I raised that was 3rd at 200 and returned from 500 as an old bird. A sister of hers won a 250 and was 9th next day at 500. I split the sire and dam up last year and both pairs raised top 10% birds. 
The cocks side of the grizzle will be a son off of a WOW grizzle from a guy named Ron West that used to live East of Albuquerque. He was quite the breeder. I have had good luck with WOWs birds. This is the fliers best family. He also has another bird off my stock that won the 400mi young bird race. Might bring in a bird off of him. Handled the bird and was definitely solid. 
So please do not be offended if I turn you down for your generous offers. Just want you to know what the bird has to be before I bring it into my loft. I am also able to select the bird after the racing season. So if the Grizzle does not fly well, it will not enter my loft. 
Babies and siblings off winners are the next best thing if you cannot bring in the bird themselves. 
Color is only a bonus if the bird is a winner.


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## First To Hatch

Keep us informed on what you end up with! If you can't find anything let me know my mentor has some really nice whites and grizzles....I'll be looking forward to your 4 pairs up for sale!!! lol


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## hillfamilyloft

Well I screwed up. The hen 699 that the Grizzle bird is mated to is a sibling of my last years winner, not the pair I previously thought. Even better I guess. If I pull my winner after old birds, I might mate him to the Grizzle if I choose a hen.


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## hillfamilyloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> I need an education on color genetics related to Grizzles. I am sure Becky will come to my rescue. If I find a nice grizzle cock homogenius and cross him into my normal Blue homogenius colored bird, will I get all Heterogenius grizzle birds? I am thinking grizzle is dominant. If so I only need one quality grizzle bird to have grizzles in the loft. This way I can bring in one bird and cross it with a nice producing hen. Can someone give me some insight. Anywhere I can read up on this.


I am quoting my own post here to get a conversation started about my plans to produce a top notch grizzle family of birds. Here is my plan. I am a bit unsure if I will have to bring in another grizzle bird or not. 
What I have now is one grizzle bird. She is Heterogenous for grizzle. Her sire was my 699 BC and the hen was a Homogenous grizzle bird down from Ron West stock of NM. She had a good race record with numerous top 10% finishes in young birds. 
My plan is to cross her back in with the proven family of the 699 bird. She will be crossed with a homogenous BC or BB bird. The family will sometime throw a splash bird or two. 
My question is what will this pairing throw color wise? How many generations will it take to develop the color family? And will I need to bring in another grizzle? I could bring in a sibling of the hen off 699. 
My goal is to breed grizzle birds that win and are as strong and related as my current family of birds.


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## hillfamilyloft

I failed to mention that I am going to race her offspring with the breeder of the hen who has my 699 bird. I will be able to bring back the offspring that race well as well as another performance bird from the Ron West Family. Getting another grizzle bird will not be a problem.


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## hillfamilyloft

My goal is to bring in minimal outside genetics. In other words if I can get good looking grizzle birds that are 75% my bloodline working toward a smaller percentage of outside genetics the better. If it takes the one grizzle and 5 years I will do it. Every offspring will be raced and tested.


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## ejb3810

I just saw this thread, and thought that I would mention that many of the birds in Mike Schmidts Electric Czech family were grizzles. This was a fantastic family of birds, and Mike would never have sold out but not for his medical problems.
It is my recollection that Jamie Tassert of "No Mercy Loft" ended up with many of them, and I believe that he has been very successful with them.


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## hillfamilyloft

At this point I am not looking to go outside the family for the color. Wanting to use the one hen I have. I know it would be easier to just find a nice grizzle cock bird. Trying to keep the genetics as close to the family as possible. Thanks for the insight I will keep No Mercy Loft in mind.


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## ERIC K

Randy I have many grizzles in my loft and as for producing grizzles I think, BB Hen to a GRIZ Cock. That keeps from getting to many white babies and when you do get BB babies they will carry the Grizzle I believe. I've also mated BBSPL Hens to Grizzle cocks which works too. I've tryed GRIZ to GRIZ but like I said you get almost white birds.
If you have any BB Hens that carry some RRed crossed to GRIZ Cock makes some cool colors too.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> I am quoting my own post here to get a conversation started about my plans to produce a top notch grizzle family of birds. Here is my plan. I am a bit unsure if I will have to bring in another grizzle bird or not.
> What I have now is one grizzle bird. She is Heterogenous for grizzle. Her sire was my 699 BC and the hen was a Homogenous grizzle bird down from Ron West stock of NM. She had a good race record with numerous top 10% finishes in young birds.
> My plan is to cross her back in with the proven family of the 699 bird. She will be crossed with a homogenous BC or BB bird. The family will sometime throw a splash bird or two.
> My question is what will this pairing throw color wise? How many generations will it take to develop the color family? And will I need to bring in another grizzle? I could bring in a sibling of the hen off 699.
> *My goal is to breed grizzle birds that win *and are as strong and related as my current family of birds.


 I don't know about the related part to your birds, but I would think that goal is a lot more obtainable then some other of the other colors that people have developed. It is always a challenge to find a "good" bird which can advance your family line, even more challenging if it is limited to a certain color, ie. like white. I am sure, that within my own combine, there could be a dozen good grizzle candidates, but I doubt if any "good" whites, yellows, duns, etc. As there appears to be a fairly large following of fanciers trying to enhance the "Grizzle". Best of luck to you. Hopefully you will share some pics then of your grizzles.


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## hillfamilyloft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't know about the related part to your birds, but I would think that goal is a lot more obtainable then some other of the other colors that people have developed. It is always a challenge to find a "good" bird which can advance your family line, even more challenging if it is limited to a certain color, ie. like white. I am sure, that within my own combine, there could be a dozen good grizzle candidates, but I doubt if any "good" whites, yellows, duns, etc. As there appears to be a fairly large following of fanciers trying to enhance the "Grizzle". Best of luck to you. Hopefully you will share some pics then of your grizzles.


I think starting with a good race bird from a proven family will help matters. I will share the process on this thread. The grizzle come out of a family that was developed by Ron West. He was a author and genetic enthusiast in the 80s and 90s. The birds sire and dam were both good fliers and came from 500 miles as old birds. 699 had two top 10s. A 3rd from 250 as YB and 9th from 400 as an old bird. We will see. If the offspring do not produce top birds, she will not be the grizzle I am looking for. I now have to make the choice for her a mate. I do have one of her Uncles who lost his mate this year. He has produced top 10 and numerous 10% birds. 
I am approaching this to not only produce grizzle birds, but birds that win.


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## triple7loft

Sounds like a winner this will be a fun adventure for you and your pigeon family



Jason


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> I think *starting with a good race bird from a proven family will help matters*. I will share the process on this thread. The grizzle come out of a family that was developed by Ron West. He was a author and genetic enthusiast in the 80s and 90s. The birds *sire and dam were both good fliers and came from 500 miles as old birds*. 699 had two top 10s. A 3rd from 250 as YB and 9th from 400 as an old bird. We will see. If the offspring do not produce top birds, she will not be the grizzle I am looking for. I now have to make the choice for her a mate. I do have one of her Uncles who lost his mate this year. He has produced top 10 and numerous 10% birds.
> I am approaching this to *not only produce grizzle birds, but birds that win*.


Absolutely ! 

I do find your project intellectually stimulating. I had come back to the computer to post some ideas which came to mind, and then you beat me to it. In that my suggestion would be to find a breeder, any breeder, that has taken that same mind set, and has already run with it, over some period of time, and hopefully the racing performance even exceeds some of yours. So that on at least one level, the birds will add some aspect of racing, ie. 500 Mile OB racers, etc. with the idea of producing 1st of all a race winner in the area you may be a bit weak in. In your mind, you will have improved performance and introduced color genes you like. I know almost nothing concerning the genetics of the colors referred to as "grizzle". 

Would have to revisit Ron Huntley's pages for a refresher. http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/griz.html

This is one of these plans which can take on a life in itself. As this quest from one perspective, is not all that different from what one does, when seeking that next cross which could elevate your family to a whole new level. The only difference is you have added feather color as a trait to select for. If a super pre-potent breeding specimen falls into your hands, and it just happens to be the gem you seek, then the rest of it will be rather easy. 

Once upon a time, this nobie, wanted to own some red pigeons, because that was the color he enjoyed as a kid. So he searched the world from Brussels to Hong Kong, for a good middle distance champion who had a red or Vos line. He fulfilled his childhood dream, and now every day he gets a little chill that goes up and down his leg as he looks at the birds that live in his breeding loft. 

You are not that far off from that guy. So perhaps only limit your search to USA, so who are the top Grizzle breeders in the USA ? Wasn't there a Grizzle One Loft Race somewhere ?


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## First To Hatch

I wonder who that boy with the red pigeons is Warren!!! lol. I am hoping to have at least one red, red check, or silver this upcoming year, and then pray that a hawk doesn't take it.


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## triple7loft

I know what you mean brother !!!!



First To Hatch said:


> I wonder who that boy with the red pigeons is Warren!!! lol. I am hoping to have at least one red, red check, or silver this upcoming year, and then pray that a hawk doesn't take it.


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## First To Hatch

I didn't have any this year, but I wasn't breeding out of any reds. This year I have a red check cock, and a silver hen, we'll have to see what happens. I'll take a good pigeon in any color, but I'd like a variety!!!

I have noticed one thing, a bird that is good no matter what color it is, it seems to be a beautiful pigeon even if it is an ordinary blue bar.


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## triple7loft

Yea I wish there was a way to breed hawk since into these birds 



First To Hatch said:


> I didn't have any this year, but I wasn't breeding out of any reds. This year I have a red check cock, and a silver hen, we'll have to see what happens. I'll take a good pigeon in any color, but I'd like a variety!!!
> 
> I have noticed one thing, a bird that is good no matter what color it is, it seems to be a beautiful pigeon even if it is an ordinary blue bar.


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## First To Hatch

I don't mean to get off topic, but....

I think you can breed a hawk escaping gene into them, if you encounter hawk problems I think the birds that make through have those genes. I do open loft and I think they learn a lot about predators that way, I lost less birds to hawks this year then the year before I hope that trend continues.


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## triple7loft

I think you are correct !!!!



First To Hatch said:


> I don't mean to get off topic, but....
> 
> I think you can breed a hawk escaping gene into them, if you encounter hawk problems I think the birds that make through have those genes. I do open loft and I think they learn a lot about predators that way, I lost less birds to hawks this year then the year before I hope that trend continues.


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## Kastle Loft

http://okpigeon.com/grizzle/index.htm

http://www.timberlofts.net/OLR.html


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## Josepe

They use to auction the birds off from the All Grizzle Race in Ok.,but they don't anymore.I bought two from the auction back in 2005.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> I don't mean to get off topic, but....
> 
> *I think you can breed a hawk escaping gene into them*, if you encounter hawk problems I think the birds that make through have those genes. I do open loft and I think they learn a lot about predators that way, I lost less birds to hawks this year then the year before I hope that trend continues.


 I advanced that theory once upon a time...and was laughed at.  So I suspect most went the way of locking the birds in for months at a time etc. etc. of course, after months of inactivity, those birds were much more likely to be caught, then those subjected to constant daily excersise brought about by physical education director, Mr. Cooper. But, I digress,......best Grizzles are of course those subjected to the constant rigors of racing. The more harsh the training and racing, then the better the genes. The amount and degree of "selective pressure", then the more selective the outcome. 

I have never been convinced that it has ever been more complicated then that. Racing pigeons, show pigeons, or even pigeons best designed to avoid a hawk, it all comes down to selection process, or lack there of. Most grizzle owners will apply only average selective pressure, and thus the results are pretty average. Find a breeder which applies extraordinary selective pressure, and you will find a colony with members which are beyond ordinary. That is just the way Mother Nature intended, and that is the way she works. 

Find a Grizzle breeder here in the USA who applies selective pressure beyond what your average pigeon fancier does in terms of selection, and that is where one will find the more exceptional specimens. Applies to any other color as well of course. I thought I would mention it here because I suspect that pigeon folks forget why a specific fancier ends up producing more "good" birds out of turn.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> I wonder who that boy with the red pigeons is Warren!!! lol. I am hoping to have at least one red, red check, or silver this upcoming year, and then pray that a hawk doesn't take it.


 Just some kid.....I guess he really isn't a kid in chronological terms, but in many ways, he really hasn't gone anywhere. Somewhere along the time line he attempted to become more like the adults in the room, and thus blending in, became the order of the day. 

Then somewhere along the way, as more and more adults simply passed on to presumably a better place, the little kids figured out, that after all was said and done, their life's dream or desires, were no less important, for at the end of the line, let it be said, they did it their way. 

So, here is hoping that some kid, is able to produce some of the fastest, most beautiful grizzles, that the world has ever seen. And for 2013, let all the kids out there, follow their passion, and perhaps leave their mark on this world, by leaving behind some of this world's most beautiful living works of art. I know, it does not make me the most mature adult in the room, but I am going to cheer in 2013 for all those kids out there, who will attempt to create their own Picasso in whatever rainbow color that floats their boat !!


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## ThePigeonShack

HapyCo....

Whita Bandit...

In the 126 birds that my buddy gave there are 4 HapyCo banded birds of which 2 are grizzles... they are my best looking birds. Not only the look but they just feel like chanmps..I now have 7 Bandit blood pairs, and 6 squeekers and 4 more eggs ready to hatch.

That's what I will be concentrating on for this coming year Grizzles primarily Bandit blood.

I dont know much about this sport but have learned a lot in the past year.

I also have some very good Tourniers and a few Belgium imports that were also given to me by my buddy Ali.

I just cant seem to get over how beautiful grizzles are.


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## re lee

I recieved an Email from pigeon auctions.com . world of wings. They have several good GRIZZLES up on auction now So might be a place to look. Weyer family loft birds


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## SmithFamilyLoft

neven said:


> I don't now what going on with ipigeon auction but something is not right.Looks like money change everything even one of the best auction site in USA. Now I will work only with pigeon auction.I think this auction is better and there is telephon number so you can contact auction right way if you need.


 What does your satisfaction or dissatisfaction with an auction site have to do with the topic of "Best Grizzles" ?


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## johnnyksspeedshop

A great flyer in my club by the name of Dale Golla has an excellent grizzle family, he very rarely lets them go. He is often unabeatable in YB racing, and does quite well in OB as well. Unfortunately do to running a one loft race he does not fly YB season anymore. His one loft race here in MN is called Flying Aces One Loft Race, check out his website. He named his family of grizzles the "White Man" family. I finally acquired a hen, and look forward to breeding from it this season. Here is a pic of me holding her up with the cock im putting her with.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

johnnyksspeedshop said:


> A great flyer in my club by the name of Dale Golla has an excellent grizzle family, he very rarely lets them go. He is often unabeatable in YB racing, and does quite well in OB as well. Unfortunately do to running a one loft race he does not fly YB season anymore. His one loft race here in MN is called Flying Aces One Loft Race, check out his website. He named his family of grizzles the "White Man" family. I finally acquired a hen, and look forward to breeding from it this season. Here is a pic of me holding her up with the cock im putting her with.


Hey, now that looks like a good match. What colors should a pairing such as this produce ?


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## First To Hatch

I really like that BB cock.


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## ericwadde3

I"ll buy the first or second set of youngens they raise, lol.


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## bob prisco

*Best grizzles*

We were lucky enough to own the BEST and most FAMOUS GRIZZLE to race and breed in the USA. This bird is the LEGEND name "BUTCH or BUTCH POPPA"
AU-84-JBM-259 GRIZZLE SPLASH COCK . We purchased him at 9 years old for $2,100 at auction and he continued to breed champions until 14 years old.
He was a 4 time winner and winner of over $60,000 usd in his racing career and even a better BREEDER of BREEDERS.
He was featured on cover of "RACING PIGEON BULLETIN " SEPT. 29TH , 1986 , along with a great article. You can read the article and see many of his outstanding children on our site www.priscoracingpigeonloft.com.
Before we purchased him we had several direct children breed excellent for us,
none were grizzles so we never bred a grizzle until we purchased him.
His bloodlines are mostly HVR with a touch of questionable other blood.
We fly mostly HVR BLOOD STRAIGHT and some crossed with #259 blood and IMBRECHT.
It has been our experience that we only obtain grizzle color when one of the parents are grizzle. We do not breed for color only performance and any loft that put's color ,eyes , etc. before performance is going backwards if they are a racing loft to achieve quality racing results.
To our knowledge the only colors that the STRAIGHT HVR'S imports came in were BC ,DC , BB and BC SPLASH , DC SPLASH AND BB SPLASH. NO GRIZZLES or REDS. We mention this because many times fanciers will indicate that a bird in STRAIGHT HVR blood and vary from the BC , DC , BB and splashes in each.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

bob prisco said:


> We were lucky enough to own the BEST and most FAMOUS GRIZZLE to race and breed in the USA. This bird is the LEGEND name "BUTCH or BUTCH POPPA"
> AU-84-JBM-259 GRIZZLE SPLASH COCK . We purchased him at 9 years old for $2,100 at auction and he continued to breed champions until 14 years old.
> He was a 4 time winner and winner of over $60,000 usd in his racing career and even a better BREEDER of BREEDERS.
> He was featured on cover of "RACING PIGEON BULLETIN " SEPT. 29TH , 1986 , along with a great article. You can read the article and see many of his outstanding children on our site www.priscoracingpigeonloft.com.
> Before we purchased him we had several direct children breed excellent for us,
> none were grizzles so we never bred a grizzle until we purchased him.
> His bloodlines are mostly HVR with a touch of questionable other blood.
> We fly mostly HVR BLOOD STRAIGHT and some crossed with #259 blood and IMBRECHT.
> It has been our experience that we only obtain grizzle color when one of the parents are grizzle. We do not breed for color only performance and any loft that put's color ,eyes , etc. before performance is going backwards if they are a racing loft to achieve quality racing results.
> To our knowledge the only colors that the STRAIGHT HVR'S imports came in were BC ,DC , BB and BC SPLASH , DC SPLASH AND BB SPLASH. NO GRIZZLES or REDS. We mention this because many times fanciers will indicate that a bird in STRAIGHT HVR blood and vary from the BC , DC , BB and splashes in each.


Hey Bob, 

Thank you for sharing this and your site. I would think that a fancier would be far better served by visiting a fancier such as yourself, who has spent a considerable amount of time carefully breeding performance based birds, which just might happen to have the color one might be seeking, rather then going to a breeder which focuses on breeding specific colors, and where racing is more or less an afterthought. That is of course, if one wishes to remain competitive in the racing arena. Which it is pretty obvious from your site, that breeding* racing pigeons* is what you are focused on.


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## Kastle Loft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hey, now that looks like a good match. What colors should a pairing such as this produce ?


I believe you could get bb, grizzle or even bc. It all depends on what the parents of the grizzle are. The grizzle is hiding both a color (likely blue) and a pattern (likely bar or check). So if this grizzle doesn't pass the grizzle gene to a baby then the underlying color and pattern will show up. If she is a bb under that grizzle then the Babies from this pair will be either grizzle or bb.


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## West

bob prisco said:


> We were lucky enough to own the BEST and most FAMOUS GRIZZLE to race and breed in the USA. This bird is the LEGEND name "BUTCH or BUTCH POPPA"
> AU-84-JBM-259 GRIZZLE SPLASH COCK . We purchased him at 9 years old for $2,100 at auction and he continued to breed champions until 14 years old.
> He was a 4 time winner and winner of over $60,000 usd in his racing career and even a better BREEDER of BREEDERS.
> He was featured on cover of "RACING PIGEON BULLETIN " SEPT. 29TH , 1986 , along with a great article. You can read the article and see many of his outstanding children on our site www.priscoracingpigeonloft.com.
> Before we purchased him we had several direct children breed excellent for us,
> none were grizzles so we never bred a grizzle until we purchased him.
> His bloodlines are mostly HVR with a touch of questionable other blood.
> We fly mostly HVR BLOOD STRAIGHT and some crossed with #259 blood and IMBRECHT.
> It has been our experience that we only obtain grizzle color when one of the parents are grizzle. We do not breed for color only performance and any loft that put's color ,eyes , etc. before performance is going backwards if they are a racing loft to achieve quality racing results.
> To our knowledge the only colors that the STRAIGHT HVR'S imports came in were BC ,DC , BB and BC SPLASH , DC SPLASH AND BB SPLASH. NO GRIZZLES or REDS. We mention this because many times fanciers will indicate that a bird in STRAIGHT HVR blood and vary from the BC , DC , BB and splashes in each.


I can attest to the quality of Bob's birds. In fact there are very few people I would return to purchase birds from and Bob is most definitely one of them. I received 3 awesome HVR's from him and I bet his grizzles are just as nice. Performance is the cornerstone of his loft and it shows, I just wish I could afford to purchase some of his proven HVR fliers.


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## hillfamilyloft

Here is the hen LL 18 that will be introduced to the breeding program. She is a granddaughter of Ed x Charlotte my foundation pair. She is off 699 who was 3rd at 150 and has bred very good birds. 18 raced well with some very good 10% finishes and a top 10.


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## hillfamilyloft

She has a crown on her head. Not sure what bird I am going to pair her with. Probably put her with an uncle of hers. I will keep everyone filled in on her progress. Once paired up I may start a new thread for the breading season. I was also thinking of pairing her to a different mate at the end of the season. I may put her with Ed or her grandfather. Ed is her great grandfather. I got that wrong. I do have a half sister of Ed that throws splashes. I may eventually bring that white in. She has also produced winners.


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## hillfamilyloft

18 was the best flying grizzle in the club 2011 young birds. This year another flier had a group of three or four grizzles that flew well. I may look into those if I need another bird. I am also looking into working with someone that has a race proven grizzle bird to team breed with. May hit that flier up and burrow a bird. Eventually want about 3 pair of high producing quality grizzle birds. Might just bring in a sibling.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> 18 was the best flying grizzle in the club 2011 young birds. This year another flier had a group of three or four grizzles that flew well. I may look into those if I need another bird. I am also looking into working with someone that has a race proven grizzle bird to team breed with. May hit that flier up and burrow a bird. *Eventually want about 3 pair of high producing quality grizzle birds. *Might just bring in a sibling.


 Why limit yourself to only 3 pair if they end up producing better then anything else you currently own ? All that would have to happen, is one of your future grizzles turn into one of those racing career changing, life changing, honest to goodness, pre-potent breeders. And as he produces season after season, winner after winner after winner, all in turn producing exceptional grizzle racers, well you know I am thinking some number of generations from now, you might just be saying something like, I want to try and keep at least 3 pairs of my original line which are blue bars.


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## hillfamilyloft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Why limit yourself to only 3 pair if they end up producing better then anything else you currently own ? All that would have to happen, is one of your future grizzles turn into one of those racing career changing, life changing, honest to goodness, pre-potent breeders. And as he produces season after season, winner after winner after winner, all in turn producing exceptional grizzle racers, well you know I am thinking some number of generations from now, you might just be saying something like, I want to try and keep at least 3 pairs of my original line which are blue bars.


Who knows. I am about to the point where the only thing in my loft are off my foundation pair Ed and Charlotte and my foundation cock Kahunna. I am out sourcing Kahunna into a brother sister pair of Mark's. I call them the 54's. I can see myself only having these two families of birds by next year. Maybe the grizzle will just work into them. I agree if that is the best in the loft then they will all one day carry grizzle. It is kind of like I am breeding for color but not breeding for color. The question is, "would I stock her if she was not grizzle?". The answer is probably. I think she was 9th against 400 birds and 35th against 350 birds at 300m and finished two 300s and a 400 as a young bird. She was in the top 3rd in all races she flew. So probably.


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## johnnyksspeedshop

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hey, now that looks like a good match. What colors should a pairing such as this produce ?


Thank you, this will be my first time breeding this pair together, but im guessing mostly blues, blue grizzles and pieds.



First To Hatch said:


> I really like that BB cock.


Thank you, he is a very muscular pigeon with good race record. He is also from the loft of Golla.



ericwadde3 said:


> I"ll buy the first or second set of youngens they raise, lol.


Hehe, unfortunately i have a very small loft, so race all young I breed


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## Josepe

Got sick of winning the first 50 places huh? What combine did you fly with? What years?


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## Crazy Pete

I would like to get sick of winning.
Dave


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## triple7loft

Thats what i am talking about



Crazy Pete said:


> I would like to get sick of winning.
> Dave


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## hillfamilyloft

How old are you Coop?


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## hillfamilyloft

Coop Cleaner said:


> Lol, probably young enough to be your grandson by looking at your picture. Nice photo btw, neat to see older people together longer than I've been alive probably. Not the norm anymore....sad to say.


? what pic. I was thinking you won top 50 in 1952 or 1954 until I reread the post. Maybe if your 7 you could be my grandson. How many birds did you win tp 50 places against and what system were you using? With 50 on the drop you had them dialed in.


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## hillfamilyloft

We have a guy in the ABQ club that takes top 50 or so. He files in a club with 5 guys with no basketing limit. He will fly 150 birds a race.


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## triple7loft

Sometimes mobing is the only way


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## hillfamilyloft

Coop Cleaner said:


> Sorry. Don't get on the computer much so not to good at it....had you confused for smithfamilyloft.....apologize again.
> 
> Was probably 600-700 birds in the race, around 15 lofts maybe. I probably shipped around 80 youngsters if I remember correctly clocking 50 in less than a minute. That was years ago when I was younger and racing in the local combine.
> 
> System was darkened double widowhood.
> 
> No more white ones these days, no more local racing.....only one lofts. Just started entering them a couple years ago. Working with all new birds than what I raced from home so very exciting and interesting for me. Especially since you are flying against the BEST in the country! The true test of "the bird" IMO.


What birds are you trying out? Which races are you entering? There are a few guys in here that fly one-lofters regularly. 
Yes Warren is the old guy. My theory is the birds are a great escape from the wife. Probably one of the secrets how the wives put up with us. My wife does not get it, but she likes that I leave her alone.


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## hillfamilyloft

Welcome to PT


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## hillfamilyloft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Why limit yourself to only 3 pair if they end up producing better then anything else you currently own ? All that would have to happen, is one of your future grizzles turn into one of those racing career changing, life changing, honest to goodness, pre-potent breeders. And as he produces season after season, winner after winner after winner, all in turn producing exceptional grizzle racers, well you know I am thinking some number of generations from now, you might just be saying something like, I want to try and keep at least 3 pairs of my original line which are blue bars.


I have two options to go with her. Breed her back into the Ed family or take her into the family I am developing with Kahnna and Mark's 54s. I was researching the 54's and am excited about the birds. Mark loaned me two siblings. I crossed the hen with Kahunna and the cock with Kahunna's daughter. They produced 4 birds each. Of the 8 birds all but one were flown with two being lost. 5/8 flew the series in three different lofts. 3 birds had top 10 finishes, with 4/5 top 10% finishes. So 50% off the offspring two out of each pair had top 10%. The 18 grizzle is 1/4 Ed blood and 1/4 Kahunna so I can go either way. Two cock birds that I am looking at for her are a son of Ed who has raised top 10s and Buzz who has raised a club futurity and bond winner. Buzz is off Kahunna. I am thinking of putting him with an bird off of a niece, one of the top 54 race birds.


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## West

Coop Cleaner said:


> Just some culls Ganus gave me......
> 
> 1st American Grand National 330 miles, 2 on the drop in the final Sierra Ranch Classic from 370 miles, 1 on the drop in the final Shasta Classic from 320 miles or whatever it was.....so far this year.
> 
> I'm happy with that for pretty much just starting to compete in them. I love my birds more than anything. Don't have many, only 15 pair. I would rather spend time in my loft than do anything in life.


Well you're either some guy named Andy Skwiat or you're lying to us. Either way, welcome to PT.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Coop Cleaner said:


> Lol, probably young enough to be your grandson by looking at your picture. Nice photo btw,* neat to see older people together longer than I've been alive probably.* Not the norm anymore....sad to say.


 Now that is funny ! 

Since I have great grandchildren, you just might be right !


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## hillfamilyloft

Here is an update on my Grizzle project. I mated the grizzle hen to one of my best breeding cocks. He is a son of Ed and Charlotte and has bred some top 10 birds. These are their first round of babies. He is a nice dark Blue Check medium small. Very cool looking. These two will go to Falpdoodle to fly in California. I will probably fly all the babies this year to see how they do. If they tear it up I will stock a few to start my grizzles.


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## hillfamilyloft

The blue check is the Grizzles great uncle. I will post another pic when I ship the babies out. The BC baby has a bit of white on his head. Not sure if she will be grizzle or not. Maybe a little salt on the top of the head and neck.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> What birds are you trying out? Which races are you entering? There are a few guys in here that fly one-lofters regularly.
> Yes Warren is the old guy. *My theory is the birds are a great escape from the wife. Probably one of the secrets how the wives put up with us. My wife does not get it, but she likes that I leave her alone*.


Now, I don't care who you are, that is funny !! Anything that keeps me out of the house, and out of my wife's hair, is just fine with her !! She once said she didn't know how my pigeons stand me, well I said sometimes they can't and they don't come back. She said something like, well maybe if you were nicer to them would come home, etc. etc. So perhaps too much truth to your statement, and maybe too much information on my part !


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