# Please Help - Ringneck Dove with Wing Problem



## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

I have a pet ringneck dove (10 years old) who has always been in good
health. About a month ago he started picking at right wing. This
continued for days and he was obsessed with it. Although he ate well
his behavior completely changed and he became very nervous. I called
up a dove and pigeon breeder in the city and he stopped by the house
to have a look at the wing. The problem was a primary flight feather
that was not growing in normal. The breeder pulled the feather and my
bird was back to normal by the next day. There was no bleeding when
the feather came out.

Two weeks have passed since the feather was pulled and now the dove is
back picking at the same feather as it is growing in. This time he is
a lot more quiet than normal, it looks like he might be starting to
molt but he is constantly pulling at the new feather more than he is
preening. Again he eats well but has lost interest in every day
activities. I called up the breeder and he gave me an anti-picking
spray to try on the problem area of the wing but it seems to provide
no relief.

I don't know if the feather is causing the poor little guy pain or
what but he has not been himself today. The breeder says he can't pull
the feather again and it will take 6 weeks to fully come in. I feel if the feather isn't pulled again he won't survive.

I've had the dove to a local vet a few years ago and he did not know
much about the species and did not help out at all. I have not come
across this situation before and I am really stressed out (and so is
the bird) and it looks like he is suffering. If you could provide any
advice on how to remedy this situation it would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Don


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i know nothing about this, but qualified people will be along shortly. just give it a moment as it is Sunday morning, but i'm sure someone will be here soon to help...
you'll need to know what the droppings look like, any changes in them?
and i'm sure everyone else will have many more questions....


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks for the quick reply, his droppings are normal and he eats a lot several times a day. This morning as soon as he woke up he started yanking on the feather and has been at it ever since. He has always been a well behaved bird but right now he is terribly nervous. It was amazing that 5 minutes after he had the feather giving him problems pulled 2 weeks ago my dove was back to his normal activities and didn't start to pick at the wing until a new feather started growing in. It is the feather that grows in as the long primary flight feather on the outside of the wing. I will wait for more replies but thanks for caring.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2007)

Well, something is obviously bothering him in that particular area. What I would watch out for is a possible developing dermatitis, an irritation in the skin that could turn into infection. I'm not saying that is what this is but a dermatitis has to be treated surgically by a vet scraping out the area of ruined tissue.

I would watch the base of the skin where the feather is coming from. Look for redness. There may be something wrong with the follicle buried in the skin. Keep a close eye on this. Look for any sign of even the slightest amount of bleeding such as blood stains on the neighboring feathers. 

Your dove could be creating more damage by his picking at the area. He might even start up an infection that wouldn't have happened if he left it alone. There is something definitely going on in that area. His behavior should not be ignored and applying a substance attempting to stop the picking could either mask the symptom or irritate the skin even further.

I don't think I would pull out the irritating feather for the second time but rather watch the skin as it grows out. Pulling out the feather can do damage to the follicle. Your bird might even have a sebaceous cyst in there and that's something that can't be fixed by pulling out the feather.

I had a parrot that developed a dermatitis and the vet had to scrape out the area. It didn't work so the next thing he did was to amputate the elbow of the wing. It all started when the bird started pulling and biting the specific area of the wing that was bothering him so this symptom you're describing can turn into something serious.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks for the helpful information. The breeder who removed the feather is an expert on bird's wings - apparently at this point there is no infection or dermatitis. I saved the feather that was pulled, Gord said it was not growing in normally. Here is the picture of the feather-


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2007)

Hi,
I can't tell anything from the picture except that it doesn't look normal at the base but I don't know why unless it looks like the entire shaft wasn't pulled out. It looks broken off at the base.

It doesn't matter though because this new one coming in is also bothering the bird. I think you have enough of symptoms to realize that something just isn't right. The bird is starting this biting and pulling all over again. Pulling out that second feather is just going to inflame the area. I just want to emphasize that if you put anything on like the medication to stop picking, it can clog a possibly already damaged pore and add to whatever the problem is. Whatever is causing the discomfort is beneath the skin. Don't even put on an antibiotic ointment. The most you can do is soak the area with a warm water compress a couple of times a day and that's if you can even get down to the skin.

Do you have a good avian vet in your area? Where are you anyway? I may be able to come up with a site that gives the names of avian vets near you. Don't go to a cat and dog vet. You need somebody who knows feather and skin structures.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Thank you for taking the time to explain the possibilities of what might be going on. I live in Saskatchewan Canada (Regina) and unfortunately there are no avian vets in the area. The vet I saw years ago when the dove was under the weather told me my bird would not live because his liver was not functioning. He was the dog & cat variety and charged me $150 for examining an "exotic" bird. I fed Birdie with a syringe and within a few days he started getting better on his own. That was 6 or 7 years ago and Birdie is still with us. This situation has put extra stress on me cause I don't know where to turn for help. I will take your advice and stop the anti-picking spray and try the warm compresses. (It looks like the spray may be causing him extra irritation). An update- I tried a warm compress on the area and the little feather that is growing in is what he is pulling at. Is there reason for concern? I'm afraid he may pull the feather out when I'm not at home and he'll start to bleed.

Also I noticed he is stamping his feet and very, very anxious today. Is there a possibility that parasites might be involved? Would bathing him in a sink full of luke warm water do him any harm?


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2007)

Hi again,
Well, he's uncomfortable and showing it. I can't see any reason for putting him into a bath if you can just use warm compresses but I would spend about 20 minutes for each soak. 

I hear you about not being able to find an avian vet.

Does the breeder you know have any dusting powder for ecto-parasites? It wouldn't hurt to dust him to make sure. Only use a powder with a pyrethrin base. Some of these products can be toxic to birds especially the ones sold for mammals. Let the feather come in and maybe this discomfort will go away by itself. Just watch this area daily for any sign of inflammation and/or redness and in the absence of a vet, you have the breeder and we are going to have to play this by ear, day by day. If inflammation shows up, we may have no choice but to put him on an antibiotic.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

can you ask the breeder where he goes when it's absolutely necessary for him to see a vet??


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

donsatman said:


> .......
> 
> Also I noticed he is stamping his feet and very, very anxious today. Is there a possibility that parasites might be involved? Would bathing him in a sink full of luke warm water do him any harm?


The foot stomping is/can be a sign of mites, I think it's red mites but I would have to go back to some of my bookmarks and that could take some time. You'd need to thoroughly clean and treat his living area as well w/some type of spray like Sevin which you can get from a Garden Store (5% Carbaryl). Cover the head of the bird (I use a cut off sock)then spray under wings on rump and flip to get back area.

You might want to give the bird a chance to splash around in the bath and 
dry off before sprayingo--if your bird is into baths. 

Here's a couple of links on feathers:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww46eiv.htm

http://www.ijdb.ehu.es/ijdb200448023/ft181.pdf

The PDF file will take a bit to load.

It's also helpful to "spritz" them w/water daily especially when molting if they don't have access bathing.
One of my birds pinches away at the feather shaft as it grows in and the sound is amazing. But that is
really all she is doing.

fp


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

fp, I remember doing a little reading on red mites when Phil's Cockatiel was having some problems with them, Apparently they do not live on the bird, but come out at night to feed and live in any crevices around where the lives/sleeps/cage, so he may not see them on the bird if this is the problem.

Donsatman, a few years ago one of our smaller birds had a feather problem, started to pluck his feathers out and was always at himself, mainly under the wings. He was seen by our avian vet, no parasites could be found and all his lab work was "normal" they did look for Giardia, which can cause some of the symptoms he was displaying.

I actually ended up taking him out to our vet teaching university, The University of Guelph, to have them take a look and they repeated a few of the tests and gave him a thorough examine with no conclusive answer forthcoming.

I turned to the web and tried MSM, you can find the links below that I originally read that lead me to try it. I used the spray mix mentioned, not the oral twice a day, and his problem resolved and his feathers grew back. I don't know if this will help your bird, but it may offer him some relief until the true cause can be rectified.

http://tinyurl.com/23cxsb
http://tinyurl.com/ynrw32

I hope this helps,

Ron


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Thank you all for the very helpful information and links. A few times today he started preening himself all over his body (including the sore feather). I noticed a lot of times he stops and looks at his feet and then starts picking at his legs.
It looks to me like he is trying to pinch away the feather shaft on the sore feather with no success. The warm compresses seem to help as he started preening both times after the compresses were applied. I will hold the compress on there longer as I have only been doing it for 5 minutes each time.

You are wonderful people and I greatly appreciate the valuable advice. I will post more information as the evening goes on. Again, many thanks!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ron, the red mites do live in cracks and crevices because they sell an oil to
squirt into crevices which is supposed to kill them. I'm not certain that the
foot stomping was from red mites but I remember reading that symptom
associated w/a kind of mite. Here's a way to check and see if the bird has 
red mites.

From: http://exoticpetvet.net/avian/mites.html

One other type of mite may be seen in pet and aviary birds. This is called the red mite (Dermanyssus). This nasty mite bites birds and sucks their blood. Red mites may be found on any species of bird. Most recently, I diagnosed red mites in a breeding aviary of Queen of Bavaria conures. They feed at night, which often makes the bird restless and itchy. The mites may be found crawling around on the skin or feathers at night. If a bird is examined during the day, no mites may be present on the bird. The easiest way to diagnose them is by covering the cage at night with a white sheet. Examination of the sheet in the morning will show tiny brown or red specks about the size of a grain of pepper if the bird has red mites. After the mites take a blood meal from the bird, they will crawl off into cracks in the cage or perches, nest boxes or even into other areas of the home in the morning. I have seen these mites infest an entire New York City apartment! Unfortunately, red mites aren't very fussy about who or what they take their blood meal from! They can bite and feed on human blood, as well as the blood of household pets. During the day, mites can get into furniture, carpeting and woodwork, where they lay their eggs. Clean-up requires removal of the mites from the environment as well as from the birds. Birds may be treated with ivermectin at 7-10 day intervals, or a pyrethrin spray or 5% carbaryl powder may be used on the bird. Because the mites suck blood, an avian veterinarian should be consulted, as the bird may be anemic from continued blood loss! Although unlikely, the mites could transmit certain other diseases to birds, as well.

Here's a site on Avian Dermatology and Feathers with downloadable articles from the The British Veterinary Dermatology Study Group:

http://pcwww.liv.ac.uk/~timn/avian_dermatology.htm

Anyway, birds need water for their grooming/preening activities and misting
is a good way to supply that for caged birds to help between baths.

fp


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

I was reminded by my wife that the dove exhibited the same behavior 2 weeks ago before the sore feather was pulled (nervousness, excessive preening, moodiness ect.). So although mites could be an issue it seems like it's the ingrowing feather that's driving him crazy. The lack of an avian vet is driving me crazy. The breeder who helped me before hasn't returned my calls regarding the vet he uses. I will have to keep trying the compresses and hopefully the feather will grow in normally and stop bothering him. It's just so hard watching him suffer. What would be the consequences of pulling the feather again? At least it might take away his agony for a couple of weeks again.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

feralpigeon thanks for the great info and links, I will look into them this evening.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

donsatman said:


> ......What would be the consequences of pulling the feather again? At least it might take away his agony for a couple of weeks again.


Damaging the feather follicle would be one of the possible outcomes. Also,
like this feather, another would come along if the follicle is not damaged to the point of occluding new feather growth. 

pigeonperson also made reference to dermatitis and having to have the vet scrape the area. 

If you feel the bird is responding to warm compresses, why not try to push through the tough times w/this kind of mechanical relief? Hopefully you can
get some veterinary info from the breeder. Are there any dove or pigeon
clubs close by that you could call for veterinary referals?

fp


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2007)

So we now have some guidelines going. fp, thanks for reminding us about foot stamping and mites. It's possible but also, in the past, I've seen birds stamping their feet and even after dusting, it didn't clear up until they were put on good nutrition for a few days. It is certainly possible for mites to irritate the skin. Bad nutrition could cause dry, itchy skin so nutrition is a third possibility. The bird may be experiencing the beginning of dry skin due to a lack of vitamins and minerals. 

Donsatman, can you get hold of a bird vitamin and mineral water soluble product? They should have calcium, magnesium, Vitamins A, D, E and D3. Is the bird on a seed only diet with no calcium grit? It wouldn't be enough and could cause skin problems. Also, as was suggested, mist the bird daily. That should help.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Please don't think that I am being cruel by suggesting to pull the feather again, I just want to see the bird stop suffering. I spoke to the breeder this evening and he thinks my bird is picking at the wing out of boredom and suggested I get him a mate. He had no suggestions for a vet in the area as he looks after his own birds but told me I should just let the new feather grow in despite the discomfort my dove has (he said it could take another 3 to 4 weeks - the bird will never survive!). I got a referral to a woman that knows a lot about birds at a local pet store and she was not working today. Tomorrow I will stop by to talk to her. The dove is on a diet of mostly seeds but has had grit since day 1.

I started giving Birdie vitamins in his water about 2 weeks ago. I will start misting him tomorrow. Is there a chance he could pull out of this without the help of a vet?

The only positives about the bird today is that he ate well and his droppings are normal. He preened himself on and off several times today. He is sleeping very sound and quietly tonight.

The negatives- he was obsessed and tugging at the sore feather all day, he was very quiet and hardly made a sound, he did a lot of nervous rummaging around the cage today (on and off the perch several hundred times). Also he showed no interest in his toys and a mirror in his cage which he usually loves. (He had all of these symptoms 2 weeks ago until the damaged blood feather was removed and he was back to his normal self within half an hour).

Every time I let him out of the cage today he flew on my head and stayed there preening himself. Please give me some assurance that he can recover from this problem as I have not come across this problem before and do not know what kind of outcome to expect.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Hopefully you can
> get some veterinary info from the breeder. Are there any dove or pigeon
> clubs close by that you could call for veterinary referals?
> 
> fp


unfortunately the breeder does not seem to have much sympathy for my bird
(all he did was offer to set me up with a female dove to keep Birdie company).

Thanks to your suggestion I found a web site with Saskatchewan bird clubs and a list of a few vets in the area. I will get on the phone tomorrow morning. I appreciate the good advice.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

My vet told me that feathers coming in feel like pins and needles being poked through the skin, it probably hurts and if the feather shaft is larger than the other (original) than if feels funny and uncomfortable to him/her. The fact that spring is in the air and mating too could he/her be starting feather picking due to any kind of stress? Has this bird ever had an injury to this area of the wing before? 

Cindy


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

naturegirl said:


> My vet told me that feathers coming in feel like pins and needles being poked through the skin, it probably hurts and if the feather shaft is larger than the other (original) than if feels funny and uncomfortable to him/her. The fact that spring is in the air and mating too could he/her be starting feather picking due to any kind of stress? Has this bird ever had an injury to this area of the wing before?
> 
> Cindy


Good morning Cindy,

As far as I can tell my bird shouldn't be under stress as nothing has changed in his environment. He has never had any type of injury before including his wing.
Is there anything you can think of that might help out with the discomfort he is experiencing? I tried 4 warm compresses on the wing yesterday and they provided him with some relief, I'll have to try again today. Birdie had a pretty good morning- I misted him for the first time and he preened himself for about an hour and hardly went at the wing. As the day is going on he is focusing back on the sore wing but he is not nearly as nervous as yesterday.

Don


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi donsatman,

We'll, one way to give him some temporary immediate relief would be by applying a topical anaesthetic, such as this, http://www.anbesol.com/label/max_liq.asp , I have used this exact product a number of times for injuries to the foot and it works very well, so I don't see why it would not relieve the pain of the feather area. Use a Q-tip and squeeze out the excess on the side of the bottle, so it does not run, I usually apply wait a minute and apply again. You will have to apply it a few times throughout the day, but it may help him through the worst right now (you can get it at Shoppers Drug Mart or other drug stores).

I would still see if you can get him to an avian vet to make sure there are no hidden issues going on.

I hope this helps for now,

Ron


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

I had Birdie to the vet today and she told me the new feather growing in looks abnormal as well and that's what is causing him all of the discomfort. . I now have to wait till Thursday for her to do some reading and in the mean time my bird is miserable. What would be the harm if I pull the sore feather out before my dove goes nuts?


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi donatsman,
Most times feather pulling is the result of a problem rather than the cause; but it never hurts to make eliminations. Take a magnifying glass and look at the skin around the feather area; look for tiny pin holes which signal the presence of parasites. If they are there they will be around the area rather than just at the feather base which the bird is picking at. If you see nothing, you may want to consider whether something bacterial as the cause, particularly if it is only the one feather that the bird picks on. These can be several types, but swelling, redness and irritation at the one site alone points to infection. it can also be fungal or viral. If the bird is chewing at several feathers, that suggests the problem is frustration, anger, anxiousness or surroundings.
Putting a collar on the bird is very controversial for a number of reasons and not recommended. 
Anyway, start by taking a good look at the site with a magnifying glass where the bird is picking and let us know what you see.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Don, sometimes w/certain types of mites, if you look at the feather shaft, there
appear to be little dark dots inside the shaft. Look for this as well, and tonight
try the sheet tecnique that I posted you information on earlier in this thread.

Frankly, at this point I think there's something more than ectoparasites going
on w/your bird, but you could have a combination of issues and pinpointing what they are would be helpful. In addition to the issues Grimaldy just pointed out, there are still the possibilities that pigeonperson raised as well. The possibility of a diet deficiency, dermatitis, a possible cyst. There are several things to take a look at. BTW, did you ask the vet what she thought about pulling the feather out since she thought it to be growing in abnormally? Also, are you comfortable pulling the feather out if she says 'yes' to you on pulling the feather? I'm wondering if all of the previous shaft came out of the follicle, and at this point it must be fairly sensitized.

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Well I am not an expert on this but I am guessing that it wouldn't hurt but have some blood stop on hand just incase it starts to bleed, if you don't have any blood stop on hand you can use plain old flour and pack well till it stops and then if you have to rinse it off that is fine just make sure it has stopped bleeding first, you have to remember one thing though the feather gets pulled out and a new one has to come in so you are going to end up going through this all over again. Could there be a abcess possibly starting under the skin at the feather folicle? Do you feel anything kind of squishy or smallish under the skin? Sometimes birds do grow larger than normal feather shafts maybe the next one will come in normal. Keep us posted as I am curious now as to what your vet finds out. Good luck and keep the warm spray going and it will keep him/her preening maybe she will preen that feather again soon and take care of the problem on her own.

Good Luck
Cindy


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

I will examine the wing with a magnifying glass and post some pictures. As for the feather pulling I would try to have the vet do it. But hopefully not have to wait 3 days). Here is the shaft from the feather pulled 2 weeks ago, is the photo clear enough to show any damage from parasites or other problems?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

naturegirl said:


> Well I am not an expert on this but I am guessing that it wouldn't hurt but have some blood stop on hand just incase it starts to bleed, if you don't have any blood stop on hand you can use plain old flour and pack well till it stops and then if you have to rinse it off that is fine just make sure it has stopped bleeding first, you have to remember one thing though the feather gets pulled out and a new one has to come in so you are going to end up going through this all over again. Could there be a abcess possibly starting under the skin at the feather folicle? Do you feel anything kind of squishy or smallish under the skin? Sometimes birds do grow larger than normal feather shafts maybe the next one will come in normal. Keep us posted as I am curious now as to what your vet finds out. Good luck and keep the warm spray going and it will keep him/her preening maybe she will preen that feather again soon and take care of the problem on her own.
> 
> Good Luck
> Cindy


Yes, flour will work as well. Once the bleeding is over I would think especially
because of issues that your bird has had you would want to ever so carefully
clean/irrigate that area. Perhaps if your vet is comfortable w/you pulling the
feather before Thursday, you could have her look at the site when you return to her office. 

Don, I hope you realize that in terms of a nutritional imbalance, that many of 
us here could find ourselves saddled w/this issue if we are one of the folks
who leave the seed out all the time for our birds to select which of the morsels they prefer. There is not a judgement in this, more a signal that 
a different approach needs to be considered and implemented.

fp


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Here is the feather that's bugging him. I examined it up close with a magnifying glass but could not see any holes. I will stress that the vet I saw was not an avian vet so she didn't seem to be too knowledgible about birds. Can anyone see anything abnormal about this new feather?


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

When your bird is at this feather, is he trying to crack the sheath (the casing that encloses the growing feather)? Is there any redness at the base of this feather?

Ron


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> Hi donatsman,
> Most times feather pulling is the result of a problem rather than the cause; but it never hurts to make eliminations. Take a magnifying glass and look at the skin around the feather area; look for tiny pin holes which signal the presence of parasites. If they are there they will be around the area rather than just at the feather base which the bird is picking at. If you see nothing, you may want to consider whether something bacterial as the cause, particularly if it is only the one feather that the bird picks on. These can be several types, but swelling, redness and irritation at the one site alone points to infection. it can also be fungal or viral. If the bird is chewing at several feathers, that suggests the problem is frustration, anger, anxiousness or surroundings.
> Putting a collar on the bird is very controversial for a number of reasons and not recommended.
> Anyway, start by taking a good look at the site with a magnifying glass where the bird is picking and let us know what you see.



Thanks Grimaldy, I will have better look at the wing in the morning as I let the bird go to sleep- he had a really rough day. if it turns out to be infection can an antibotic be administered by the vet? Also Naturegirl I will check for an abcess at the same time and thanks for the advice on the feather pulling. You've given me so much hope! In the lack of an avian vet I hope I can get the poor little guy back on his feet soon with the wonderful advice I've recieved in these forums.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

jazaroo said:


> When your bird is at this feather, is he trying to crack the sheath (the casing that encloses the growing feather)? Is there any redness at the base of this feather?
> 
> Ron


Hi Ron, yes I am convinced that he is trying to crack the sheath with no success. I believe he was trying to do the same thing with the previous feather that was pulled. The sore feather is about 2 and a half weeks old- at what point do birds normally try to remove the sheath? I will inspect the base of the feather in the morning as I put the poor little guy to sleep. If there is redness what would be the cause and what can be done? Thanks for caring...


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Well, my thinking is this, when I look at your most recent picture I see the sheath curling over a well developing feather. Now most of my experience with regards to feathers is related to Parrots, but I am thinking that the sheath I am seeing should have been preened/cracked off by now, at least they would have with our Parrots, and when I went back to to the first page and looked at the original pulled feather, it seemed to have a lot of sheath on it as well.

Again, on our Parrots when a feather is sheathed they can't get at, but needs preened, it bothers them, so I or my wife will do this by rolling the sheath between our forefinger and thumb or gently trying to see if it will crack with our nails. If you roll the sheath between your fingers what happens? Does it compress like plastic or does it start to crack or peel away? Could the sheath on this feather be mal-forming in a way the bird can't preen it off and this is frustrating this bird? Perhaps others with more experience with Dove feathers may have an opinion, but this is what I am thinking.

If the opinion is that this is what may be wrong, the feather could be released from its sheath carefully with a small razor by the vet or yourself.

Ron


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Donatsman.
Feather problems are not fatal in doves; second if he was looking for a mate his cooing would have driven you nuts by now. Be cautious about ambesol with a dove; it contains ethelene gylcol and alcohol. Doves have a very small blood volume to begin with so it does not take much to kill them. There is a website for Harrison's organic bird seed where he offers a form of soothing anesthetic for doves; the principal ingredient interestingly enough is ammonia. There is also a view among dove owners that the white sheath around the feather coming in is best left alone, the dove will remove it in his own good time even though it may grow to a length of one or two inches. Foot stamping in doves is usually regarded as "happy feet".
Please do not pull the feather until you are able to give us a description of the area around the feather base.
Regards,


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm not citing these articles to try and pin down the problem this dove has but to show how difficult it is to diagnose a particular bird's skin and feather condition. This is a very complex topic:


http://tinyurl.com/23wg87

http://tinyurl.com/ytqds3

http://tinyurl.com/2f74rd


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

What a day! I finally got a few minutes to sit down and tell about what went on.
First of all the dove is almost back to normal except very tired. I got a call early this morning from the vet (thank God - the bird was almost out of his mind with discomfort). I took him to her office and she examined the skin around the feather and looked at the sheath. She said the sheath looked normal so decided not to cut it back. When she was feeling around the wing she touched the sore feather and the dove was in obvious discomfort. The vet had received advice from an avian vet 120 miles from where I live and the verdict was to pull the feather and cauterize the follicle. Before I knew it the feather was pulled and examined and according to the vet it was growing in normally this time. I had Birdie home within an hour during which he was very quiet. When I put him back in his cage he started preening himself and shortly after that he started vocalizing (first time in days)! He had a terrific appetite today and hardly paid any attention to the wing the feather was pulled from. I noticed he was very tired so I put him to bed early tonight- he hadn't slept well in the past week. His personality is almost back to normal. Although he loves to be out of his cage I kept him in all day to rest and he didn't seem to mind. (and by the way, no evidence of mites- I was told he appears to be a very healthy bird but got no answer on why a healthy growing feather would cause him so much pain).

I left the vets office without letting her cauterize the follicle, I did not want to have it done without getting more advice as it is a primary flight feather.
Also what is the procedure for cauterizing? I do not want to put the bird in more discomfort than he has already been through and is it wise thing to do anyway?

Birdie is having his first really comfortable quiet deep sleep in days. By the way - I read all of your posts and links and I think it is wonderful that there is such a knowledgeable community of bird lovers so willing to go out of their way to help a poor suffering creature (and his suffering owner too). Your assistance will not be forgotten- many thanks!

Don


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2007)

Don,

I think I understand your reluctance to have the site cauterized. If you're anything like me, you don't want your pets to suffer in any way and it plagues you to see it.

In this particular incident, we have two feathers that came in badly and we still don't know why. I believe, and don't rely on this, that it is due to something happening under the skin in the follicle. If it happens for a third time, I don't think you have any choice but to have the vet work inside the follicle. The bird could be given a local anesthetic like Lidocaine and an electro cautery would be applied to simply burn out everything under the skin including the follicle. It's certainly safer than putting your dove under a general anesthetic like isoflurane but in any event, he wouldn't feel anything.

I realize you're reluctance to permanently prevent a flight feather from coming in but he would still be able to fly well. One feather doesn't make that much of a difference.

If I'm right and this is a subcutaneous problem, it could continue and spread to neighboring areas and that's one thing I'm worried about. 

You have two choices. The first is to allow a third feather to grow in and maybe it will come in with no problem. The second is that if this happens for the third time, I think I would allow the vet to clean out the area because it's never going to be good and it could spread out to other follicles. Beyond that, I don't know what else you could do so let's hope the third feather is a charm.

In the meanwhile, I would check that area for any redness or anything unusual on a regular basis.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re feathers*

Here are some links I have collected over the past year or so regarding feathers. Some I have Googled, some I have collected from other PT posts. I don't think I have fabricated any of them. 

Perhaps our PT member *Feather* has a better reference collection. She should.

I don't know how good they are compared to references given here by others, since I am not now taking the time to re-check them.

Use them if you wish for what they are worth. (My new list now includes
the links provided by Pigeonperson, whom I thank. They are not repeated below). 

--------------------------------

Winged Wisdom Pet Bird Magazine - Feathers Part I - Pet Birds
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww46eiv.htm


http://www.ijdb.ehu.es/ijdb200448023/ft181.pdf 

Feathers
http://www.ornithology.com/lectures/Feathers.html

Feathers
http://www.infovisual.info/02/058_en.html

The Bird's Feather
http://www.earthlife.net/birds/feathers.html

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/13/3/344.pdf

Blood Feathers F.A.Q.
http://www.quakerville.com/qic/qbfeathe.asp 

Feathers
http://fsc.fernbank.edu/birding/feathers.htm 

FEATHER MITES (ACARI: ASTIGMATA): Ecology, Behavior, and Evolution - Annual Review of Entomology, 48(1):185 - Abstract
http://arjournals.annualreviews.org...48.091801.112725?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ento

As Strong and As Light As a Feather
http://birding.about.com/library/weekly/aa062701a.htm 

Feather - LoveToKnow 1911 
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Feather 

Feathers
http://www.backyardnature.net/birdfthr.htm

http://www.ummz.umich.edu/birds/WOSManual/4.ForensicOrnithology.pdf 

Ornithology Lecture Notes - Flight
http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/554notes2.html 

Wing Anatomy
http://www.wfu.edu/biology/albatross/activity/winganatomy.htm

Modelling Flapping Flight, 
Google Image Result
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...6&ndsp=18&svnum=50&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&sa=N

Plumage and Molt Terminology
http://www.ofo.ca/plumages.htm

-------------------

Larry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WOW Larry! What a great list of references!

PT is much richer because you are member! Grateful THANKS!!

You are DEFINITELY one of the GOOD GUYS!    

Noticed at end of Pet Bird mag. article by Linda Pesek on Feathers, there was to be another article about feathers that included feather disorders. Wonder if there would be anything different than the information that Pigeonperson posted, which is also extensive.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Pigeonperson & Larry - thanks for the advice and support in this very stressful time. I will wait for the new feather to grow in and if it is causing him problems I will get it rectified with your suggestion. The links are wonderful and keep me occupied for hours and I enjoy the education. I would do anything to help out these poor little creatures and I hope Birdie won't have to go through this again.

He is almost back to his old self, just not flying too much and he seems kind of weak (which is understandable as the past week has been hell for him). He looks once in a while at the wing where the sore feather was but he does not pick at it - I think this has become a habit. He will get lots of TLC until he is back on his feet and I may have an opportunity to get him a mate. He had a mate 11 years ago but she died and that's when I took him into our home and cared for him ever since.

God bless you all, you are wonderful caring people and your assistance will not be forgotten. Now that I was lucky enough to find this forum I will become an active member of the community and hopefully have the opportunity to help out others that raise pigeons and doves in the near future. Many thanks!

Don


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

donsatman said:


> *First of all the dove is almost back to normal except very tired.*
> 
> * *The vet had received advice from an avian vet 120 miles from where I live and the verdict was to pull the feather and cauterize the follicle. Before I knew it the feather was pulled and examined and according to the vet it was growing in normally this time.*
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update Don. 
Glad to hear the little dove is doing better.  

* If the second feather proved to be growing normally, let's hope the third one will as well.  

** The area is burned or seared. 

I would do just what you are doing. Let the little one rest, make sure he is eating, drinking, preening & pooping & watch for unusual bleeding or an onset of an infection. 

Please keep us posted.  

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Don, just wanted you to know that I'm happy your dove seems to be better and no longer in pain. We all hate to see our little guys suffer.

And, I agree with you, this forum is a great place with great members.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks for all of the support everyone. Although my little guy seems to be no longer in pain he does not appear to be back to full health yet. He eats well but seems hesitant to fly and doesn't seem to have nearly as much energy as he usually does (he sleeps well - at least 10 hours a night). I have not seen him eat grit lately which is unusual. He still looks under the wing when he starts to get tired but usually doesn't peck at it. I don't know if this has become a habit or if it still bothers him. I'm praying the new feather will come in normal! Although the vet couldn't confirm it I believe Birdie could have sustained an injury to his wing that affected the first blood feather that was growing in.

After his first feather was pulled it took him almost 2 weeks to get back on his feet and then the 2nd one started troubling him. I give him a Hartz vitamin supplement in his water everyday. I understand the point being made about nutrition and I would like to start feeding him a more nutritious diet. I am concerned about a lack of calcium and protein. I've tried feeding him lettuce, apple, broccoli, ect. He likes apple and eats a small bit but I have not seen him eat the greens. 

He is mostly a seed eater, any suggestions on how to improve his diet would bet greatly appreciated. Also are the Hartz vitamins ok or is there a better product with more benefit for the bird?


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Two weeks have passed since the vet pulled the dove's blood feather. He was doing relatively well until today and now he is back picking at the wing steady. The last advice I got from the vet was to let the feather grow in no matter how much it bothers him because she was not able to cauterize the follicle. I am not sure if he is nervous or in pain? Because the vet gave him a clean bill of health I try not to worry but it's hard not to as he is in some kind of discomfort. The vet is on vacation until the 16th of April so I need some advice. A breeder in town offered to give me a female dove to keep him company and figures if he is kept busy he will not pay as much attention to the wing and feather and it will have a chance to grow in. I wonder if sleeping on the perch if the edge of his sore wing doesn't rub against the perch during the night. Please give me some ideas on what I can try cause I don't like to see him suffer.

Don


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know if this would help but you might try dotting the follicle (the skin) with one of the topical analgesics that have benzocaine or lidocaine in them and see if that gives him temporary relief.

Pidgey


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Don't know if this would help but you might try dotting the follicle (the skin) with one of the topical analgesics that have benzocaine or lidocaine in them and see if that gives him temporary relief.
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks so much for the advice Pidgey, I applied an analgesic on the wing and the dove squirmed around for a few seconds, then he flew on my head. I put him back in the cage and he has been preening himself ever since. He seems to be more content and has not fussed with the wing for the past little while. Great suggestion- I sure appreciate the advice.


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Here we are at the 20th of April and a new problem has arisen. My dove was doing very well for a couple of weeks. Now a new flight feather is breaking through the skin on the opposite wing and it is causing the bird great discomfort.

The dove is constantly trying to pull at the new feather and thrashing around the cage. I tried contacting the vets office this week and she is still out of town. Her receptionist recommended buying a multivitamin for the dove made by Prime as the vet left notes and thought the bird may be lacking calcium and other important nutrients. I put a small amount in his water today but as of this writing he is still having a rough day (very restless and very quiet). If the vitamin supplement is going to help how long could it take before I see some improvement?

I am in a desperate situation and would appreciate any suggestions on what I may be dealing with here. The dove flew around the house for 10 minutes this morning and it seemed to irritate the wing more. Maybe he needs to spend more time in the cage until he improves?


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

little bird said:


> You applied a topical analgesic on the last feather and it worked really well.........so why not do the same on this one???


Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it today and it didn't seem to make a difference. Here is a picture, I hope it is clear enough. I don't have enough experience to know what's wrong.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

donsatman said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it today and it didn't seem to make a difference. Here is a picture, I hope it is clear enough. I don't have enough experience to know what's wrong.


Is that a piece of poop on the feather? I'm assuming it is .. I'd suggest pulling that errant feather and see what grows back.

Terry


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## donsatman (Mar 18, 2007)

Hi Terry,

Nice to meet you. I put the little guy to sleep for the night, I'm hoping you are right and that is just poop (I will have a better look in the morning). I think the idea to pull the rogue feather is a wise one as he had the same problem on the other wing and pulling the feather corrected it. I want to thank you for the advice - I know pulling the feather will hurt for a few seconds but it will save the dove weeks of terrible discomfort.
I will post my results tomorrow.

Don


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