# Pigeon has a big crack on the upper park of his beak.... help!



## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm not sure how this happened but my pigeon has a big crack on the upper section of his beak. He has cracks before and chipped? beaks but it was always at the front tip of the beak. This time though it happened way at the top. How worried should I be about this? Risk of infection? Dangerous? Should I take him to the vet for fixing? I've never seen a crack at the top and it worries me if tissue could be exposed/risk for infection. What should I do? I am changing his water everyday and i always clean his bowl. Anything else? is he calcium deficient? I am going to try and give him more sun light because in our room the windows tend to be covered and it is a hard angle to get direct sunlight from. How long should I leave him in the sun everyday? His cage is always open and he always roams out little room so i think he might get enough exercise I just worry about the sunlight. 

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/338/picture206c.jpg
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7710/picture208f.jpg

-edit-

Image shack was reducing the resolution on the pictures so I uploaded ones with their full resolution

Okay here are the pictures in their full resolution you should be able to see complete detail of the beak now on close up.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/697/picture2123.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4117/picture2121.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6986/picture2118.jpg
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/2448/picture223j.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6852/picture222t.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/121/picture220xh.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/91/picture217k.jpg

plus the original picture in full resolution

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9619/picture206jz.jpg


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## ETphonehome (Jan 3, 2012)

All the information is out there for free on the internet just type the right searching words and look for the info.

Like this pages for instance

http://www.avianweb.com/beakdeformities.html

http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-diet-and-health/bird-care/bird-beak-health-ailments.aspx


If it is a hen give always, calcium and D3, for both hen and cock give an all in one suplement containing particularly the following vitamines, *calcium, D3, A, E, F*

Always post clear information of the bird to get accurtate help.

Sex, age, medical history, personal history, (how you got the bird in which circumstances, etc...

You do not fix a cracked beak you treated to help to heal, vets are ignorants about pigeon care and treatment among many other things, Do not let your bird to be touched by a vet you can regret it later, do not waste your money and your time with a vet you will only stress the bird for nothing. What he has is completly treatable at home with propper care, but you have got to read and inform yourself a lot.

You can read on the first post in the link below how ignorant, immoral, and dehumanized are the so-called veterinarians. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-a-broken-beak-cat-bite-in-the-uk-13562.html


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Yes, take your bird to a vet. I can't really tell from the pics what the damage is. Let us know what you find out.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Please do take the bird to the vet, it is ill-advice to do anything less.

Please DO update us, thank you.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ETphonehome said:


> All the information is out there for free on the internet just type the right searching words and look for the info........
> 
> .....You do not fix a cracked beak you treated to help to heal, vets are ignorants about pigeon care and treatment among many other things, *Do not let your bird to be touched by a vet* you can regret it later, do not waste your money and your time with a vet you will only stress the bird for nothing. *What he has is completly treatable at home with propper care, but you have got to read and inform yourself a lot.*
> 
> You can read on the first post in the link below how ignorant, immoral, and dehumanized are the so-called veterinarians.



Yes, there is all kinds of "free" advise out there on the Internet, but that does not mean you attempt to preform surgical procedures at home. I am sure for instance, that doctors make heart surgery sound a lot more complicated then it is, but if someone suggests that you preform heart surgery at home in order to save some money, then I am suggesting that it unsound medical advice.

So, advising readers here not to consult a licensed avian vet, in akin to practicing medicine without a license. So not only is it unwise, but in some jurisdictions, it may actually be criminal, it certainly falls under some kind of malpractice. It is NEVER good advise, to tell someone not to seek qualified, medical advice for a pet, a child, or some other loved one.

Have I ever undertaken emergency measures in order to save the life of a pigeon ? Yes I have, including surgical procedures. But, I would NEVER, NEVER EVER, advise someone NOT to go to a Vet. To do so, would be totally irresponsible.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Good to see some moderators finaly noticing these postings and responding, as this poster has been one of the sources of recent arguments.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

ETphonehome said:


> All the information is out there for free on the internet just type the right searching words and look for the info.
> 
> Like this pages for instance
> 
> ...


Hi Thanks for your detailed reply. My pigeon is a male and he is about Five to six years old. His medical history... well I have not ever taken him to the vet before. He has not really had any problems except for these couple of times where he would all of a sudden get dizzy and start moving around in circles, on the spot with out walking. This happened a few times for I think a month or two. Then he has not done it again except for maybe last month once. When this happened the first time I came to these forums for help, but not much came out of it. I was asked to try and record the episode when it happened but they were so few and it only lasts like 5 seconds or so and after that he never got another episode so I was never ever able to do it again. Actually when I bought another bird and he saw the new bird in her cage he got really stressed and nervous I am guessing and he started acting dizzy. So it makes me wonder if it is nervous system related or just stressed? 

Oh and I found this birdie when he was young as a baby and I brought him up on formula first, then he started eating canary seeds, then cockatail seeds and now he eats that plus also sometimes he eats some wheat bread, sun flower seeds sometimes, and some other seed. OH its called milo.

Regarding the vitamins I do have a little bird supplement bottle that has vitamin A D3 and B6 along with thiamine riboflavin niacin d-pantothenic acid and choline .... regarding vitamind D and calcium... I just removed a big mirror that was on our large window that blocked out a lot of the sun. From now on my pigeon should start getting much more sunning when he goes for the window. And also about calcium I think that can also be obtained with red grit? I think I read a post about that. I believe the red grit is also preferred over the white? So should I pick up some red grit for my pigeon? please let me know!


IN A SECOND I WILL UPDATE THIS POST WITH CLEARER PICTURES ON MY PIGEON. SORRY IT LOOKS LIKE IMAGE SHACK WAS RESIZING THE PICTURES TO MUCH SMALLER SIZES SO IM SORRY YOU COULD NOT SEE DETAILS.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay here are the pictures in their full resolution you should be able to see complete detail of the beak now on close up.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/697/picture2123.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4117/picture2121.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6986/picture2118.jpg
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/2448/picture223j.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6852/picture222t.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/121/picture220xh.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/91/picture217k.jpg

plus the original picture in full resolution

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9619/picture206jz.jpg


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

FlyingPigeon said:


> Hi Thanks for your detailed reply. My pigeon is a male and he is about Five to six years old. His medical history... well I have not ever taken him to the vet before. He has not really had any problems except for these couple of times where he would all of a sudden get dizzy and start moving around in circles, on the spot with out walking. This happened a few times for I think a month or two. Then he has not done it again except for maybe last month once. When this happened the first time I came to these forums for help, but not much came out of it. I was asked to try and record the episode when it happened but they were so few and it only lasts like 5 seconds or so and after that he never got another episode so I was never ever able to do it again. Actually when I bought another bird and he saw the new bird in her cage he got really stressed and nervous I am guessing and he started acting dizzy. So it makes me wonder if it is nervous system related or just stressed?
> 
> Oh and I found this birdie when he was young as a baby and I brought him up on formula first, then he started eating canary seeds, then cockatail seeds and now he eats that plus also sometimes he eats some wheat bread, sun flower seeds sometimes, and some other seed. OH its called milo.
> 
> ...




Your bird will probably enjoy the sunlight and it's warmth, but it won't get the rays from the sun that it needs to make vitamin D3. UV rays don't pass through window glass or screen. Most is filtered out. You will need to give the vitamins with D3 in them. And giving him some ground oyster shell would give more calcium than just grit.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I just looked at the pictures of your bird. His top beak is way over grown. He may be cracking it trying to pick up seeds, as it would be more difficult for him with a beak so over grown. You would have to bring him to a vet to have it clipped. Don't try to do it yourself, as you could cause injury.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Your bird will probably enjoy the sunlight and it's warmth, but it won't get the rays from the sun that it needs to make vitamin D3. UV rays don't pass through window glass or screen. Most is filtered out. You will need to give the vitamins with D3 in them. And giving him some ground oyster shell would give more calcium than just grit.


Even if its only the screen he won't get enough UV rays?  Okay so then no grit but instead buy ground oyster shell for him? I will get him the grounded oyster shell then. How many hours must a pigeon spend in the sun daily for him to get enough UV rays? I thought maybe if he sat where the window screen is that could fix it. So then if I need to take him outside in his cage then I'll have to do it. I just need to know about how long he needs to be in the rays and nooooooo i won't just leave him out in the baking sun! I would never do that  I have taken him outside before in a smaller cage and I always hold him like he is my baby... because he is!!!!!!! I live in an apt building, in a small studio /w 5 people, so options can sometimes be limited for me . Thankfully we do have our own little room with a door so there is privacy for us.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> I just looked at the pictures of your bird. His top beak is way over grown. He may be cracking it trying to pick up seeds, as it would be more difficult for him with a beak so over grown. You would have to bring him to a vet to have it clipped. Don't try to do it yourself, as you could cause injury.


Won't that cause him a lot of stress? He is DEATH AFRAID of strangers . I kid you not. He only knows me and my mom. Anyone else and he flys around for the safest spot he can find. To the point of hitting things and causing himself injury. He is that scared you should see him. I have noticed that his beak does grow and it sometimes breaks off after some length. I just realized that this time it has grown much longer than usual.... So then it must have happened when he was trying to pick his seeds. Is there anyway to keep the beak from over growing? I read a website and it mentioned some stone things you can pu on the cage so the bird can rub his beak to keep it smaller?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

If the beak continues to grow, it can affect the birds ability to eat. And it could possibly starve without you stepping in to help. You should have a vet check it, snip it, and determine what you can do to stunt the growth. If it's not taken care of, it could crack further back towards the skull, which definitely will stress the bird. It's better to stress it a little at the vets, than let it stress longer with the beak problem.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

FlyingPigeon...I do agree that you need to buck up and take the pigeon to a vet. My pigeons don't like going either and some even get car sick but this is the kind of situation where your pigeon needs evaluation and treatment.I'm happy to help you find a vet if you tell us the city where you live.
Several years ago, one of my hand raised pigeons, Sammy, was attacked by my little parrot. The parrot pecked off half of his upper beak, causing a bleed. The poor bird would his head and blood splattered everywhere. It was very frightening and I would have lost him had I not taken him to emergency. On my own, I was unable to hold him and get the bleeding to stop. The problem with a cracked beak is that it can break further up and cause a bleed. I would hate for that to happen to your sweet pigeon. I can tell he means a lot to you and you really love him.
I also want to mention, that I don't think the food you are feeding him is adequate to meet his nutritional needs. It would be better to buy a seed mix that has been formulated just for pigeons and has the correct protein level. Yes...he does need red grit and calcium and vitamin d3. He would also do well with some leafy greens and minced carrots too.


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## ETphonehome (Jan 3, 2012)

Birds Beaks are made of the same material than human nails, keratin, There are many reasons for beak cracks in birds, one of them is deficiency of some nutrients, another very common is impacts of the beak with hard surfaces, in both cases many people are not aware not guilty they do the best for their birds, but unfortunately nutrition for an indoor pigeon must be always reinforced and food intake monitored to assure the bird is eating/drinking enough.



Unfortunately Sunlight through the windows have no effect to help birds to synthesize vitamines like vitamine D. You may decide on your own if you take your pet to a vet or not, but the overwhelming majority of them are complete ignorants about birds all they know is about cats and dogs, and if they are avian vets they are complete ignorants about pigeon illnesses, pigeons are not protected by law nor seen as pets, but rather as a pest or an easy way to make money with no responsibility at all. 


Avian vets know nothing about prevention, nutrition, and many other aspects of pigeons well/being or illnesses, internet if full of horror stories of people who have lost their pets in a very dehumanized way in the hands of veterinarians. 

Most vets use a noisy electrical drill to trim birds beaks, which is fast, but traumatizing and terrifying experience for a bird, sometimes birds are send home bleeding and in pain without any pain medicines.

To trim a beak the best option is to do it at home in the same environment where the bird lives and in stages not at once. Look the video, file just a little bit every day until you get the best results, you can wrap the pigeon in a towel (not to tight) the way he/she stays quiet for a few seconds and do it this way every day. 


Many pet owners do it on their own sparing their birds pain and the stress of been taken to an unknown place, the best way is just to file it not to cut it, (do not cut it) birds beak have underneath tissue you must be careful and file just a little bit the first time to let the bird get used to it, and reward him after doing it with something he likes, his favorite food or snack and a nice warm bath for instance to relax him/her/ see the video






Try not to do too much, too soon, or too quickly Birds beaks have nerve endings and can actually bleed!, but this is not a reason to not do it on your own at all, many birds are send home by veterinarians when trimming their beaks bleeding when they do this and then they will tell you that its "normal". 

People love and care about their birds and that makes a big difference with a vet, just read about the right way to do it, buy a soft nail file, (not made of metal) some Styptic Powder just in case and use all that money a vet will charge you to get a good stock of supplements and extra vitamines for your bird. 


Trimming a beak is not a surgical procedure, beaks are made of keratin like our nails which by the way also have nerve endings. As you can see in the video this can be done even in very small birds with no risks at all if you prepare yourself to do it. 

About the grid buy special grid for pigeons with shell oysters and all they need, ask in a pigeon shop where they sell or hire pigeons in your city they can help you get the right grit. 

Read on the internet about it there are plenty of personal experiences out there, videos, and articles. Here you can see how a vet will trim you pigeon' beak, not sure if this would be deadly to a bird but it is possible with an already cracked beak cutting a piece of the beak if either the best choice at this moment cause it is already fragile, the bird screams you hear in the bacground are real, read the video description in youtube the video was made by a person working with vets.







Abut the symptoms you mention it could be so many things, get some basic medicines for your birds a kind of first aid bird box, Broad spectrum antibiotic, a cream in case of burns, betadine, aloe vera gel, Styptic Powder in case of bleeding, antibiotic for the most common pigeon deceases, cocci, canker, e coli, salmonella, typhus, etc. (forewarned is forearmed) 

Let people know what you decide to do no matter what and the result of it, the way other people can learn also to protect their birds.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

ET - This birds beak is ALREADY DAMAGED and FP has already been advised to take the bird to a vet for treatment. We all know your views on vets, but it is not really appropriate to try and scaremonger a person based on your personal beliefs which is not the norm. 
FP, please DO take your bird to a vet, Your bird is obviously very precious to you & any attempt to trim his beak yourself could cause it to fracture more at the already weakened part. Charis aready has a very extensive list of pigeon friendly vets so If you post your area/city, she will list those that may be able to help you.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Also, doing it yourself, if not done properly, might ruin any bond you may have established with your bird. It could become afraid of you. As mentioned, see a vet, ask to watch the procedure to learn how it's done, and then make an *educated* decision about whether you want to do this yourself.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ET...Styptic Powder will not stop a severe bleed on a beak. Parrot's beaks are much different that pigeon beaks never mind the fact that one needs to be instructed on proper beak trimming by an individual that knows how. You Tube video is not a... *right there with you real life person.*.. and what were are talking about can be fatal if not done correctly.

I understand you have can a bad experience with a veterinarian as that's the only logical conclusion I can arrive at, based upon your stance about them. If I am correct, I an truly sorry.There are some very bad veterinarians and there are some very good ones that really do care. Veterinarians are a representation of the general public...good, bad and all the degrees in-between.
I have spends months and months of my time finding the good ones so we don't guide members to the bad ones. Even as much effort as I have put into it, some people still have experiences that are less than great or even bad. Still, veterinarians do know far more than we do and every person that shares their life with an animal needs to know a good veterinarian because a good veterinarian can save a life.
It would be helpful for us to understand why you feel the way you do if you were to start a separate thread, telling us hat happened to make you feel tho way. Please... stop sabotaging the help we are trying to give those that need it.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

FlyingPigeon,

Just to reiterate what almost everyone else is saying: ET is right that in general filing down a beak yourself is no big deal. However, with a beak already cracked and so severely overgrown I would not advise it. 

Please, do take your pigeon to an avian vet. Even if the vet has no experience with pigeons, they still deal with birds, which is more experience than you have. Once there, ask the vet to show you how to do it yourself in the future, because you'll probably need to, but please don't attempt this yourself now.

Almondman also makes a good point.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

ETphonehome said:


> Avian vets know nothing about prevention, nutrition, and many other aspects of pigeons well/being or illnesses


Holy crap....that is _*off the rails*_ .....  

If avian vets do not...then who does ?....

I am sorta surprised at this reply, ET. My previous experience has been that your input is usually better than that on this Forum. I also understand that a bad experience at a certain vet or even a few might color one's perceptions, and rightly so. I feel for you on that, I do...I hate it when you put your trust in a professional and they do not come through. But it doesn't lead to the sort of misleading blanket statement like you made above....

FlyingP....an avian vet can both do a proper trimming and they also have binding materials which they may or may not wanna apply to keep the beak together and from cracking further while healing.

You can also have a conversation regarding vitamin deficiency and stuff. As Charis says...yes, this will stress your baby a bit...BUT...what you have there is a fairly serious situation, and of course (this goes w/o saying)...you want your baby to get the best care for it possible.

Apparently this discussion has been going on for 3 days now and the bird still hasn't seen a vet. Take care of that now. Find an avian vet near you; if you cannot, try Matilda's list (look under the proper geographical section):

http://www.pigeonangels.com/f8-pigeon-resources

This is Charis's list which Quazar referred to....

Also, in the future, I would suggest you do not allow your baby outside freely (even in your hands...accidents happen and if she/he ever got spooked, she would be unretrievable).


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi everyone!

Thank you all for your replies! I actually did not notice that so many new replies came in so quickly. The day ET posted the video I thought it would be a good idea to try. My pigeon was not having any real noticeable pain when eating, and he likes to peck my fingers hard when he does his normal rough play. Anyway, I bought a really fine nail filer and I used it when I would pet my pigeon on my lap. I did not apply any pressure and would just pass it across the tip of his beak every so often. It actually worked pretty well and over the course of yesterday and today (Or wait how many days has it been i lost track...) I managed to file down his beak a little. It looks shorter now. My pigeon did not seem to mind it too much specially since I would only pass it every so often while I would pet him. Then I would give him a treat of peeled sun flower seeds which I do it by hand cracking each one and feeding each to him. Lots of good bonding time. So I did not see any problems with doing the filing. However, it looks like a miniture crack has formed on the side of where the original crack is. I do not believe this is caused by the filing because I have just recently noticed it. I checked his beak every time I used the filer and never noticed any additional cracks. The thing is that my pigeon can be playful and peck hard. Which is normal since before his beak would always grow long then break because of rough play then grow back again.... 

On the other hand I went out and bought more milo and bought oyster shell. I took a picture yesterday of the seeds I was using and all the other supplements I have but forgot to add the sunflower seed bag which I also use for them. The milo bag in the picture was also depleted which I went out and bought more today along with the oyster shell.

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3939/picture219v.jpg + Sun flower seed and oyster shell now. I also wanted to buy mungbeans because I have herd that they are yummy for pigeons but cannot seem to find them at the store. I also occasionaly feed my pigeons(2) and dove whole wheat bread and sometimes when we do make egg we make a bowl boiled brown rice and egg for them. We don't do eggs every day either. We are about 99.9% vegetarians because I need to keep my health in good order. I also have given my pigeon some sun baths by the window screen(It's not enough UV) and I want to take him out with me for a true sun bath but I need to know just how much sun (hours?) he needs every day? He won't be left unattended outside since there is no way I would do that.

Should I be looking into buying additional seed types? The pigeon mix I got at the store was mainly milo which is in the small depleated bag which I bought more of. I can try the minced carrots and letuce? but I have a feeling my pigeon won't eat it because he is just so picky.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You should buy avian vitamins with vitamin D3 in them. You can also buy avian lights which do supply the UV rays he needs.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> You should buy avian vitamins with vitamin D3 in them. You can also buy avian lights which do supply the UV rays he needs.


The vita sol bottle says it has vitamin d3 with 67500 IU. Should I be looking into a different bottle that is better? It also has vitamin A Thiamine Riboflavin vitamin b6 Niacin choline and D-pantothenic acid. 

The avian lights will they really work an provide all of the UV rays he will need? Are they safe to use?

Thanks for letting me know !


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

FlyingPigeon said:


> The vita sol bottle says it has vitamin d3 with 67500 IU. Should I be looking into a different bottle that is better? It also has vitamin A Thiamine Riboflavin vitamin b6 Niacin choline and D-pantothenic acid.
> 
> The avian lights will they really work an provide all of the UV rays he will need? Are they safe to use?
> 
> Thanks for letting me know !


Yes & yes, however, in most uv bulbs, the actual uv given out decreases over time. This is not noticable to the human eye and although the bulb may look to be operating correctly, it must be replaced after the suggested number of hours use. (usually works out about a year of normal use).
It doesnt do any harm continuing to use the bulb, but it will have negligable uv output and so be of no benefit the bird.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Flyingpigeon, The mung beans you are looking for, you can usually find at an Asian grocery.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your wonderful replies! There is another thing I want to ask. About how much oyster shell should I be dropping in my pigeon's food every day? And about how much sunlight should I be giving to my pigeons? Thank you so much in advance .


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

FlyingPigeon said:


> Thank you everyone for your wonderful replies! There is another thing I want to ask. About how much oyster shell should I be dropping in my pigeon's food every day? And about how much sunlight should I be giving to my pigeons? Thank you so much in advance .


He should have calcium grit (which can be broken up oyster shel)l available to the bird at all times, in a seperate dish, do not mix it with his seed.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello ETphonehome,

To be accurate, you should say (if it is true, that is) that the vets *you* have encountered know little about pigeons, blah blah blah and so on. Be careful about making a broad-sweeping statement that would apply to all vets everywhere at all times. Consider Abraham Lincoln's saying about fooling some of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. 

Making a vitriolic statement is usually a waste of the time of other readers.

There. I've gotten that off my chest. My wife won't listen to me (for good reason, I suspect), so you are the victim. LOL. At any rate, take no offense at anything I say. That is not my intention. 

On to other things.

I have posted links to photos I have take of a pigeon skull I have. Most of the pigeon beak is bone. The tips of the upper and lower beaks are covered with the keratinous "nail." Very little of the beak is keratin; only the part that has to be replaced as it quickly wears down.

I found a dead jackdaw or *kaue* (in Dutch) a couple of months ago, and kept the skull. At home I was astonished when the whole upper beak seemed to come off in my hand, but i was the keratin sheath which came off. Underneath was the complete bony beak. It was like a glove sliding off a finger. When I clean the skull some day, I will post pictures of it.

I notice that you live in the Netherlands. I am living in Antwerp, not so far from the southwestern part of Holland. It might be of interest to you to check out Dr. Peter Coutteel, an avian vet a bit east of Antwerp. He seemed quite knowledgeable to me the two times I took feral pigeons to him (one with a broken right humerus, the other with a broken right fermur).

There is also the Taubenklinik Essen (pigeon clinic Essen) in Germany. Several good pigeon specialists there. One of our PT members from Denmark took a feral pigeon to them. I have taken ferals to them, and they performed free surgery (one wing amputation, one leg amputation).

Anyway, I wish you better encounters with vets.

Link to photos of pigeon skull:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100953580439453378691/albums/5709874144348970657

The brown tips of the beak is the keratin. The white is bone. The narrow strips of bone in the beak is dense bone (not spongy bone).

Larry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Larry,

It's good to see you posting and we appreciate you sharing!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Quazar said:


> Good to see some moderators finaly noticing these postings and responding, as this poster has been one of the sources of recent arguments.


I agree - Its also nice to see them responding diplmatically.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Skyeking said:


> He should have calcium grit (which can be broken up oyster shel)l available to the bird at all times, in a seperate dish, do not mix it with his seed.


Oh great  I was giving it to him all the time so I am glad that can be done. Is there any reason why you do not mix it with his seeds???? Is there a chance of intoxication or something? Thank you so much once again! So helpful!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

FlyingPigeon said:


> Oh great  I was giving it to him all the time so I am glad that can be done. Is there any reason why you do not mix it with his seeds???? Is there a chance of intoxication or something? Thank you so much once again! So helpful!


they do not eat it like feed.. they only take what they need, so it is not like food.. when their grit in their gizzard gets rounded and does not work they expell it and then they eat more.. and if you put it in the feed they may ingest too much and get.... well... blocked..or constipated.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> they do not eat it like feed.. they only take what they need, so it is not like food.. when their grit in their gizzard gets rounded and does not work they expell it and then they eat more.. and if you put it in the feed they may ingest too much and get.... well... blocked..or constipated.


Thank you for letting me know! I looked up what gizzard was and read about what you said. Thank you for that. I will be sure to put the grit in a separate bowl where they can eat it. I am glad that my pigeons will be getting something good in their diet . I am just a little afraid that my pigeon might not touch the grit at all. Just because he grew up inside a house rather than outside. On another note how much sun light should I give my pigeon? My guess would be that as much as he wants is good. But since I live in a studio with not much sun light I will have to take him out to get some.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

FlyingPigeon said:


> Thank you for letting me know! I looked up what gizzard was and read about what you said. Thank you for that. I will be sure to put the grit in a separate bowl where they can eat it. I am glad that my pigeons will be getting something good in their diet . I am just a little afraid that my pigeon might not touch the grit at all. Just because he grew up inside a house rather than outside. On another note how much sun light should I give my pigeon? My guess would be that as much as he wants is good. But since I live in a studio with not much sun light I will have to take him out to get some.


at the least I would say a half hour three times a week would be good. you can buy lighting for indoor birds.

"Natural sunlight is the best, and should be part of the lighting regimen when it's practical and safe. With proper supervision and an appropriate cage, many guardians bring their birds outside when the weather permits. However, it may not be practical to rely only on sunlight as a light source. You can create proper lighting conditions indoors with special avian lights. Select full spectrum bulbs designed specifically for birds and look for bulbs that emit light in the ultra violet wavelength. These bulbs replicate natural sunlight to provide all the beneficial properties of sunlight. Mount or suspend these lights approximately 12" to 18" above the cage to best simulate the manner in which light falls upon birds"


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Gizzard, rocks*

Paleontologists find piles of small rounded rocks which were used by dinosaurs in their gizzards, then expelled for fresh stones. So I ave read many years ago.

The gizzard in a pigeon is very hard, very tough. I used a scalpel on a deceased pigeon and was barely able to remove a few small chips from the gizzard. Like trying to cut a chestnut.

Larry


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

QUOTE:
My pigeon is a male and he is about Five to six years old. His medical history... well I have not ever taken him to the vet before. He has not really had any problems except for these couple of times where he would all of a sudden get dizzy and start moving around in circles, on the spot with out walking. This happened a few times for I think a month or two. Then he has not done it again except for maybe last month once. When this happened the first time I came to these forums for help, but not much came out of it. I was asked to try and record the episode when it happened but they were so few and it only lasts like 5 seconds or so and after that he never got another episode so I was never ever able to do it again. 

When he flys in circles, on the spot, without standing on his legs, is he pushing the head backwards and is he gasping for air?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Photos of jackdaw skull, with loose keratin sheath of upper beak, and pigeon skull*

Here is a link to the photos of a 
Jackdaw skull (kaue in Dutch), showing the keratin sheath which slid off the upper beak (after some decay)
and
a wood pigeon skull in the background of some of the photos, also showing the keratin tips on the upper and lower beaks,

https://picasaweb.google.com/100953580439453378691/JackdawKaueInDutchSkullAndWoodPigeonSkull











Larry


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Dima said:


> When he flys in circles, on the spot, without standing on his legs, is he pushing the head backwards and is he gasping for air?


He actually stands on his legs and just kind of turns in circles, on the spot, but he still stands on his legs. Just kind of goes around in a circle turning. His head isn't exactly pushing backwards more like turning toward the same direction he is turning until he can't turn anymore. So I guess that he does push it backwards, but not like lifting up then back. Rather toward the side in the same direction he is turning. The gasping for air... I am not sure if what he does IS gasping for air, but his breathing does sound irregular. Kind of like heavy breathing, so ... i've never thought about it, but it could be gasping for air. Though I wasn't sure if it was just agitated breathing from being scared of what he is feeling in that moment. He has not done it as of late, and it happened, I think, two or three years ago. he had a period when he was doing it like every other day, and at one point, when it first started, I think there was a day when he did it three times a day. The MOST RECENT time he did it was when I bought my white dove. My dove was in a cage, and my pigeon flew down to look at the dove. He was REALLY SCARED of him. You know head held high, eyes wide open, pupils large, standing still just staring. Then I guess the stress? and shock of seeing a new bird got to him and he started turning just for a few seconds Then he was okay. It was triggered from the stress of seeing my dove. I am sure of it. My pigeon used to have friends, but sadly they all passed away. It was a jet black birdie, two little brown birds, and a cockateail. The two brown birdies flew away. They really wanted their freedom and were best friends. My black bird died while we were moving from our foreclosed home during the trip and so did my cockatail . It was a very sad time for me. After that I would just spend a lot of time with my pigeon to keep him company. That was for I think 2 or 3 years. Now that I have to start going out to work my heart and body because I have heart disease I thought of getting him a friend. I ended up getting a white dove then a brown female pigeon. The other birdies I had before never showed any signs of the turning my pigeon has experienced. Can you tell me what the turning with what could potentially be gasping means please??????????????????????????????????????

Thank you spirit and larry for your input. I have been giving my pigeon thirty minutes of sun almost every day. Thank you for the pictures of the beak. Though they were a little scary . I will try to take a picture of my pigeon's beak since it has changed somewhat after these couple of weeks.


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## Shadowringneck23 (Jul 5, 2012)

*Assistance*

Bring your bird to an avian veterinarian.


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