# Walking, walking...



## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

...My "Giovanni", my new pigeon, is here with me since 4 days ago, he is probably still stressed; he is 3 years old but he had an accident when he was 6 months old and he cannot fly that much, that's why he lives in a cage in my apartment. He will have a new cage (now he has a kind of rabbits' cage like), a "tall one" where he can "fly" a bit. (I "lost" him from my hands yesterday and "jumping" here and there he was on the top on my library, just the ceiling... I think he loves the high places...)
...I see he walk a lot in the cage, nervously, right left, right left... ...Not in circle. Have I to be worry? ...It does that specially when the sun starts to go down. Help my little boy...


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Do you have a perch in the cage ? Most birds don't like to just sit on the ground, if the cage is tall I would put up a couple perches.
Dave


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi A,
Congrats on your new pet. He is doing so because he's alone and new to the environment. He will settle eventually. Pigeons like horizontal cage/loft/space than vertical one. And yes,they love perches. Add some perches to the cage


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

Thank you Crazy Pete and brocky bieber; the cage is so "low", it as a perch which is very uncomfortable... About the "vertical" point, considering I cannot let him fly in the room, especially now, I thought a little more than the almost 16 inch could be something... ...The perch results uncomfortable, he tries to fly in that...  ...He loved my library... ...Considering I can only offer my dining room to him... ...He used to live in a cage a little more big (taller) but always alone, inside the cage, not with a "friend" but, as long as I understood, with other birds in other cages... ...The "ex-owner" said he will be much more happy with me... ...So I hope the time will show him I love him.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pigeons in a cage are fine with just perching on a plain ol' brick


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

> Pigeons in a cage are fine with just perching on a plain ol' brick


...Well, you're maybe right but Giovanni still try to fly on the "cage's walls"; and of course he cannot do it: the "walls" are only about 40 cm tall, I still believe he would love the taller "home"...


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*again...*



John_D said:


> Pigeons in a cage are fine with just perching on a plain ol' brick


...Like I said (and maybe I post it in a wrong way... ...I'm never sure about how it works) 
"...Well, you're maybe right but Giovanni still try to fly on the "cage's walls"; and of course he cannot do it: the "walls" are only about 40 cm tall, I still believe he would love the taller "home"..."
...But I have also another question, I'll try to be clear enough....
Giovanni walks in the cage, he seems like "nervous" but when I sit on the sofa close to the cage he stops and sit down, really relaxed, it almost seems like to "take a nap" until I move from there...
What does it mean? I still try to "touch" him and then he becomes very "crazy", he moves his wings and "hits" my hands. ... ...then sometimes after that he...
..."rolls series of throaty coos accompanied by strutting, bowing, inflating the throat, and fanning the tail"... (This is the explanation I found in a site about a particular sound)
but still he hits my hands... ....What does it mean? 
I have Giovanni since 10 or 11 days and I would love if he can be sometimes more "calm" and trusting... ...Can I still hope? ...How should I do?.... ...I love my crazy Giovanni... ♥


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

altergromit said:


> ...Like I said (and maybe I post it in a wrong way... ...I'm never sure about how it works)
> "...Well, you're maybe right but Giovanni still try to fly on the "cage's walls"; and of course he cannot do it: the "walls" are only about 40 cm tall, I still believe he would love the taller "home"..."
> ...But I have also another question, I'll try to be clear enough....
> Giovanni walks in the cage, he seems like "nervous" but when I sit on the sofa close to the cage he stops and sit down, really relaxed, it almost seems like to "take a nap" until I move from there...
> ...


From reading your other posts and this post. ONE the bird sound very tame to humans. TWO It sounds like it is a cock bird. MALE bird. THREE with it displaying cooing and struting to you it accepts you. FOUR the wing slaps means it is standing its ground Really not afraid. Plus some birds will play a little that way. You can try putting some feed in your hand. or treats and work on the bird taking feed from your hand. As you stated earlyer The bird has basicly lived caged with people for going on 3 years. Sounds like you enjoy the bird And will be taking good care of it.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

re lee said:


> From reading your other posts and this post. ONE the bird sound very tame to humans. TWO It sounds like it is a cock bird. MALE bird. THREE with it displaying cooing and struting to you it accepts you. FOUR the wing slaps means it is standing its ground Really not afraid. Plus some birds will play a little that way. You can try putting some feed in your hand. or treats and work on the bird taking feed from your hand. As you stated earlyer The bird has basicly lived caged with people for going on 3 years. Sounds like you enjoy the bird And will be taking good care of it.


WHAT??????????????? Sorry either I completely mixed up 2 separate threads or I completely don;t see your interpretation. I'll re read the thread from the beginning


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

DUDE!! I am so SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL I left a GIANT reply about a skittish bird on the wrong thread!!! I'll delete it now!

I have to stop opening 8 threads at the same time!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

re lee said:


> The bird has basicly lived caged with people for going on 3 years.


This is what I wanna say. He's fond of and trusts humans. So he feels comfortable with you and go in a relaxed and sleepy posture when you're around. When you're not around he miss you and cuz he don't have a mate to talk to.
He wingslaps you to assert his dominance,typical behaviour. He wants a mate that's why he do all those things. He is trying to impress you or sending you a message that bring me a mate,its lonely in here 
And he's new to your place. He will condition himself to living at your place with your rules slowly


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*...Giovanni again...*

...So now I'm a bit confused, I don't see anymore the reply which was 

_
"........you are moving to quick in the relationship.

You are trying to approach and touch him when he still sees you as a predator.

The cooing, grunting and strutting is him displaying, claiming his space and trying to warn you away from it.

Wing slaps are the most effective attack he has at hi disposal. He feels trapped and is fighting you off.

Its good that he can relax when you are stationary in the room. That's the first step.

also is his cage on the floor? That will make him feel very vulnerable, and the weaker he feels the more stressed he will be. Make him as comfortable as possible. Prefferably about at eye level so he can watch you move around without feeling you looming over him.

So the first step, is you being in the room and him accepting it, being relaxed. If he is watching you and alert, he has not accepted your presence as safe.

Next sit closer to the cage, and read a book/watch tv or something and wait for him to settle again.

Once he's comfortable with that (relaxes quickly - we're saying a couple of days here not minutes) start moving and speaking.

Low, slow movements and then settle again. Do this is intervals further away and then closer to him and let him settle and accept it as safe.
If possible do not handle him in this time as it will stress him out again.

You can also go about your daily chores in the house and basically ignore his cage, just let him see you moving but FOCUSED ON SOMETHING ELSE.

Its really important not to stare intensely at him. That's a very predatorrial look and will freak him out more. You might think its silly but try it wit some ferals.

I used to play a game when I was a child that I called 'freak the pigeon' LOL. I used to love feeding the pigeons and then watching them, and chasing them I'll admit! Freak the pigeon - pick one bird in the flock and eyeball it! Stare at it/glare at it, don;t blink and stay focused. The pigeon goes from noticing you, to feeling uncomfortable, to trying to get out of your line of sight and clustering with the other birds, to completely freaking out and flying off. And in this time I haven't moved a single muscle just stared at it.

(Ps Works with humans too )

eventually he will be calm around you but if he was feral (am I remembering right?) it will take a LOOOOONG time. Remember he's survive this long in the wild because he was skittish and flighty and stayed out of danger. His ONLY advantage in life is his amazing flying skills, which you have taken away from him by putting him in a cage (not saying he shouldn't be in a cage, just showing you the world from his view). His only defense is flight.

So he knows he can't fight/hurt you. He knows he is prey. He doesn't know what you are but you are interested in him and hang around. He is not high enough to feel safe (no cage will be, he'd only feel safe on the top of the tallest thing around). He knows you are BIG and definitely capable of eating him. And most important of all he knows he is TRAPPED. When we cage birds we take away their only defense against danger and they know it.

Which is why he is pacing and pacing trying to get out of the cage, because to him, not being able to escape a situation is certain death in his mind.


Again, I don't mean he shouldn't be in a cage. But you need to understand WHY I am telling you not too move so fast with him.

What might help him settle is a compartment within the cage. Maybe a cardboard box, like cats like to hid in. Get a box large enough for him to move around it (not too roomy) and cut a hole in the side just large enough for him to go through.

That will give him an escape. So when he feels so stressed out he can have a safe zone to hide in. Its important not to disturb him in there. Don't go sticking your hand in to grab him.

Obviously you'll have to clean at some point but less is more.

he might not take to it, he might love it.

Also if you drape a cloth to cover all but one of the sides of his cage he'll also feel safer......."_
...And my reply would be:





First of all forgive my bad English, I'm Italian, and thank you for all your suggestions, I'll try to "follow" it the best I can. Yes he is a feral pigeon; The point is also (I don't know if I said) he is 3 years old, he had a broken wing so he cannot fly decently, the reason of the cage is he would be not able to survive... I have a terrace but this would be more than dangerous for him, he would fall.... My apartment is not big, I tried to make it a bit more "empty" than how it was in case he "escape" from the cage (so he would not have too many dangerous object around) but still I cannot leave him free in the apartment because of risk when some people come in (even a post man and so, I'm not talking about friends) and I don't want he goes out maybe going to the attic, then the roof and then you can figure out the rest. So I bought a taller cage, a kind of little aviary but it will come in about 10 days. I think the cage (the old one) on my table could be an idea for awhile, but at the same Giovanni should have too "see" too many "changement" in so few days, stressing him... ...The person who has him before tha me and some people in a pet shop told me I should have to "touch" him in order to explain to Giovanni I'm not an enemy so he can see my hand just like the hand that feeds him. So you says better if I don't touch him... ...But in 10 days or so I will have to put him in the new cage, so I must be able to do it and he have to accept (or almost) that... ...I just love pigeons, I always loved to watch them and I love my Giovanni and I only want (I hope) to be his friend....

....But I'm a bit confused because it seems like some people think Giovanni is very scared, uneasy at the moment; someone thinks things are going not too bad about my friendship with Giovanni...
Thanks to everybody, really, but I hope you'll be able to make my mind a bit more clear now, lol....


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I know its not my call to answer,but I think LisaNewTumbler made it clear that he posted in the wrong window.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi Giovanni

I think I am the only one who posted that the bird is scared of you! I'm sorry, I open a lot of threads at the same time and read them one after another.

I had read another post about someone with a captured feral who was stuck in a cage, walking and grabbing the bars.

Since what you wrote was so similar with the pacing and wing slaps I got the discussions confused. That is why I told you you are moving too fast! I thought you had a wild bird you caught 10 days ago!



If the bird has lived with people for 3 years he should be used to people moving around and making noise.

So I also agree with the others that he is not afraid, but is cheeky, and walks to get your attention so you let him out/give him what he wants.

(I speak Italian if there is still something you are confused about)


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

I deleted the long reply saying he was scared of you because I posted it in the wrong place. Sorry about that


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*...Giovanni...*



> So I also agree with the others that he is not afraid, but is cheeky, and walks to get your attention so you let him out/give him what he wants.


Hello Lisa again,  I'm happy now I can think sometimes Giovanni will be my GREAT friend.... ....He comes from a "shelter" where I think there were many birds; but because he wasn't "friend" with another pigeon, the lady who gave me Giovanni thought he could live with me in my home. So after 3 years he cannot really fly "good" and that's why he cannot be free... ...I'm much more "worry" than him maybe, I'm afraid to hurt him and knowing I'll have to take him from this cage to the new one (when I'll have it, next maybe 10 days)... ...Last week I "lost" him in my apartment just because he was moving his wings so much and I was afraid to "break" them... ...So I left him even if not in purpose... ...He had a day of "freedom" in my dining room, I was happy for him but really worry for his "clumsiness"... ^__^ ♥
...I hope next time I'll be less worry... ...I didn't move the cage on a table or so because I don't have another table for myself but the REAL REASON is he feels fine when I sit down on the sofa or on the floor and I thought the cage on the table would change is "visual point of view" losing this "tender moment"... ^_^ ...The taller cage will have the "visual point of view" from the top (a kind of 63 in, if the translation is correct) to the floor... ...I'm trying my best for him, I hope it will work... ♥


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

What are you worried about exactly? Grabbing him or him hurting himself on the cage when you take him out?

You said he moves his wings alot. Do you mean on his own or when you hold him?

When you hold a pigeon you should always have both wings held down against their bodies, so they cannot move them and hit them on the cage.








image from google


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*Giovanni's wings*



> When you hold a pigeon you should always have both wings held down against their bodies, so they cannot move them and hit them on the cage.


...I'm afraid to hurt him "pressing" him too much or just his wings... ...I see how it is supposed to do, but he moves his wings so much (when he realizes I want to touch him or take him) that it is hard to know the "right moment"!...
Themost I'm worry, I know, the most it is hard....  ♥


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

altergromit said:


> ...I'm afraid to hurt him "pressing" him too much or just his wings... ...I see how it is supposed to do, but he moves his wings so much (when he realizes I want to touch him or take him) that it is hard to know the "right moment"!...
> Themost I'm worry, I know, the most it is hard....  ♥


Pigeons are pretty strong. When they don;t want to be held it is very difficult.

Most pigeons don't like to be grabbed, but a pigeon that is handled often will get used to being in your hand and not struggle.

His wings fit nicely to his sides. If they are in the correct place you will not hurt his wings.

Sometimes they struggle and start to 'fall out' of your hands. is that what happens to you?

All you have to do then is hold him with his chest against your body (so he cannot move forward). Then hold him correctly again.

He will get used to being held. But he still won't like being grabbed.

I hold mine for a few minutes, with a bit of a massage with my thumbs, holding them in the sun so it helps them feel good. Then they relax, and get used to being held, and don;t struggle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxUpc1m8o8w

good video of what I mean by massage. I think i got the idea from this video in fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sjywV4812Y

more videos with people holding pigeons correctly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihhcSk5hh2M


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

Than k you LisaNewTumbler, I saw the videos, the problem is my pigeon was and, in a way, still is a "wild" pigeon, he is not like the pigeons in the videos... ...he starts to move or "shout" very soon even when my hands are not touching him yet! ...And some people say to touch him in order to "teach" him I'm not an enemy; some people says don't do it if it is not necessary... ...So what is it supposed to do then?


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

I'm afraid I "unsubscribed from this thread" by mistake, I didn't want it at all, what can I do now? ....Sorry for that, I'm still a kind of "new" in the site and sometime not so "clever" with computers' things....


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Sorry don;t know about unsubscribing and how to change it.

He makes a fuss before you even touch him because normally pigeons do not like being grabbed so they will argue (grunting and making noise) and try avoid it.

He will probably always do that.


When he was with the people before did they touch him etc?

It is true that the more they are handled the more they will get used to it and the less of a fuss they will make.


If he has been around people for 3 years, and they have held him and stuff then he should not be scared of people. So he's making a fuss because he doesn;t want to do it, and wants to get his way, not because he is afraid of you.

How you handle him I think depends on what you want and need to do with him.

My ring neck dove was young and afraid. I did not grab him. I let him get used to my hand, gave him food out of my hand, and slowly got him on my finger. I didn't grab him but I was always touching him, petting his neck and stuff. 

He is now very tame and will let me put my hand over his back, hold his wings without struggling. He is definitely a pet, very confident around me and comes to me when flying in the room.

I could do this because he was young, he lived in an indoors cage so I could let him out indoors by just opening the cage, and he was a very curious bird.

I got a rescue pigeon 4 months ago. He/she is an adult and very afraid. Not wild but not used to being handled.

I had to grab this bird. Because his cage is outside, but he is not a strong flyer. So I had to bring him inside to let him fly a bit. To do that I HAD to grab him to bring him inside. He also got sick and I had to grab him to give him medicine and check him out. 

In the first 2 months I tried hand feeding him. He would eat out of my hand if I was very very still but he was all the time afraid. And would not go on my hand at all. I tried not grabbing him at first, but kind of 'pushing' him gently into the carrier to bring him inside. It didn't really make him any more tame, he was still afraid. So I decided to just grab him and get him used to it.

He will still run away from my hand when he knows I am going to grab him, but when I hold him he's ok.


If you have the opportunity to, let him come to you by hand feeding him, and getting him to perch on one hand while feeding him with the other I think it is better for a pet. 

If you make it so that he can fly into and out of the cage on his own then you can avoid grabbing him to clean the cage etc.

If you need to be able to handle him, go ahead and start holding him as often as you can without stressing him and get him to relax in your hands. You should also hand feed and touch him a little (maybe while eating) so he does not think of touching as just being grabbed.

So definitely hand feed and touch gently (not from above him) when feeding. Try get him to perch on one hand while eating from the other.


IMPORTANT do not grab and ambush him when feeding him from your hands. He won;t trust your hand feeding if you do. When feeding or perching on your hand always touch gently and if he starts moving away from it stop for a while and try again, or try touching another place.

If he bites when you try to touch him just keep your hand there till he gets bored or walks away and try again later. Or try offering him food as a distraction.


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

...Everything sounds more than right; the problem I live in an apartment, I cannot leave him "free" especially knowing he would not want to come back to the cage or to me. If he find a way to go out of the door (postman and so...) or on my terrace (which is always close but I am afraid anyway) he would be GONE. Now I think he is too much "diffident", so I try to feed him in the cage and touch him... ...I think he saw people, he maybe is not really afraid of them, he likes to sleep when I sit beside him VERY MUCH (maybe I already told you)... ...Usually I touch him after giving food or water or cleaning, but not when he is eating or drinking. ...Do I have to do it only in "separated moments", I mean just only for touching?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

altergromit said:


> ...Everything sounds more than right; the problem I live in an apartment, I cannot leave him "free" especially knowing he would not want to come back to the cage or to me. If he find a way to go out of the door (postman and so...) or on my terrace (which is always close but I am afraid anyway) he would be GONE. Now I think he is too much "diffident", so I try to feed him in the cage and touch him... ...I think he saw people, he maybe is not really afraid of them, he likes to sleep when I sit beside him VERY MUCH (maybe I already told you)... ...Usually I touch him after giving food or water or cleaning, but not when he is eating or drinking. ...Do I have to do it only in "separated moments", I mean just only for touching?


Don;t you have a room you can close off completely? Is your apartment completely open plan? Why does the post man have access to your apartment? I still don't understand that.

When I bring the birds into the house I take them to my room and close the door. So even if I need to go to another room for 5-10 minutes they are safe. 
They are closed in one room, so it doesn't matter if the other people in my house go outside or open doors. Even a bathroom will work.

I wouldn't bother him when he is drinking. I think you should start feeding him by hand. I don't mean just treats. You should feed him his daily meals from your hand.

I like starting to touch them when they are eating because they are distracted. When they are just sitting somewhere then they will be completely focused on your movements if you try touch them.

With really frightened birds i put seeds in my hand, and as they lean over my fingers I just touch their neck and feathers a little with my fingers.

Eventually I start moving my fingers a bit more.

You can use the food to pull him to you. Feed him a bit then move your hand away. He will follow your hand and you are getting his mind to move towards you. 

Later I put one hand and arm flat on the table in front of the pigeon. I have my other hand with his seeds, on the otherside of my hand.

So my hand without the food is BETWEEN him and the seeds. Eventually he steps over and then onto the empty hand and you can start moving that hand with him on it.


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

My pigeon is a wild pigeon; I could never feel fine going to work (for example) or for other reasons going outside if Giovanni is free in some part of the house. There are not doors enough. Bathroom? But if I cannot take him back in a "decent time", it means he will sleep who knows where; I empty the house a lot for him but the house was "arranged" for a family of 4 people, now I'm alone and still his flying in the house was and still should be a bit a problem, I cannot "rebuild" the apartment.... ...About a "Postman": I meant people ring the door bell, he likes a specific place close to the door so I think every time it can be a risk for him. I'm not a "a racing pigeon fancier", I only love animals, pigeons? VERY MUCH, I always loved to watch them, feeding the wild pigeons on my terrace, but my real experience is starting with Giovanni and I would NEVER lose him or hurt him; that's why I'm so "worry" about everything. So maybe I cannot have so much help because my Giovanni is so wild; the only "sign" of trust or intimacy is when I sit beside him and he becomes so calm and sweet... ...I try to make him more friend just talking to him, showing my "innocent" hands. In 12 days I see he is more calm and he can trust me a bit, but still...


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

altergromit said:


> My pigeon is a wild pigeon; I could never feel fine going to work (for example) or for other reasons going outside if Giovanni is free in some part of the house. There are not doors enough. Bathroom? But if I cannot take him back in a "decent time", it means he will sleep who knows where; I empty the house a lot for him but the house was "arranged" for a family of 4 people, now I'm alone and still his flying in the house was and still should be a bit a problem, I cannot "rebuild" the apartment.... ...About a "Postman": I meant people ring the door bell, he likes a specific place close to the door so I think every time it can be a risk for him. I'm not a "a racing pigeon fancier", I only love animals, pigeons? VERY MUCH, I always loved to watch them, feeding the wild pigeons on my terrace, but my real experience is starting with Giovanni and I would NEVER lose him or hurt him; that's why I'm so "worry" about everything. So maybe I cannot have so much help because my Giovanni is so wild; the only "sign" of trust or intimacy is when I sit beside him and he becomes so calm and sweet... ...I try to make him more friend just talking to him, showing my "innocent" hands. In 12 days I see he is more calm and he can trust me a bit, but still...


I am not saying to let him fly where ever he wants around the house, or to leave him like that while you go out to work. 

I let mine free in my room and close the door. They do not run for the door if I open it. Then when I need to put them back in the cage I either 'herd' them towards it and they go in by themselves. Or if they are finger tame you get them on your hand and take them to the cage. Or you grab them and put them back in the cage.

Are you worried you will not be able to get him back in the cage after you let him out? You can use food to get him back in the cage.

Anyway, if you are unsure, don't let him out for now.

Offer him food through the cage or if he calms down put your hand in the cage to feed him. If he is ok coming onto your finger or being touched it will be a lot easier to catch him when you let him fly around.


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

I supposed the same; but just I think it needs a bit more time... ...When Giovanni was "out of the cage" he didn't eat (there were food around) and when he is very calm close to me he doesn't accepts food from my hand or even my finger yet. ...Just when he is close to me he is calm, "sleepy"... ....Sometimes he watches at me, not worried and with *peaceful eyes*.... ^^


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*New *home**



> I hold mine for a few minutes, with a bit of a massage with my thumbs, holding them in the sun so it helps them feel good. Then they relax, and get used to being held, and don;t struggle.


...It is a great "theory" but it was very hard... ...His heart was beating like crazy when I tried to take him, I gave him a rest and then I took him... ...I'll have a long time to spend for training him.... ...Anyway, he has a new house, he is a bit crazy (or maybe not) but he "uses" more the "walls" than the "bars"... (I hope I wrote right)... I hope he will be a bit happy now... ♥


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

hey  

do you mean the perches? Pigeons tend to prefer wider flat perches. Not round ones. If you replace them he might start using them more 

It will take time for him to settle since he was born wild. But he'll get used to it. If you can manage it, try stopping only when he does relax. Or isn't really panicky. It will move things along faster.


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

I know, I'll try to find the way to give him some other "flat" thing... How to do it I really don't know but... 
About "try stopping only when he does relax" ...Do you mean to "ignore" him when he is not "totally" relaxed?....


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

hmm, no. What I mean is when holding him. When he REALLY struggles don't let go. When he calms down and relaxes you can put him down. It might be too soon for him to relax in your hands but at least he will quiet down a little.

If you let him go when he is really struggling he will think he 'got away' and next time struggle more. If you wait for him to relax he will struggle less the next time, and less and less.

I usually wait till they get those 'peaceful eyes' before putting them down.


For the perches - Here you can buy cheap ready cut pieces of wood from stores that sell everything. You can buy a few pieces about 2" wide and just put them through the bars


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

doves are way sweet and cute for pets not like some pigeons or most of them especially feral or urban pigeons they freak out for an eyelash sometimes it's very hard to accustom them on handling or touching or getting even close of them.

you mentioned that your pigeon is flightless, what are you worried about then? 

did the guy who gave you that pigeon tell you about his past?

If your run out of choices you'll have to get along with his behaviors and his "concerns" and hope he changes one day


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Abdulbaki said:


> doves are way sweet and cute for pets not like some pigeons or most of them especially feral or urban pigeons they freak out for an eyelash sometimes it's very hard to accustom them on handling or touching or getting even close of them.
> 
> you mentioned that your pigeon is flightless, what are you worried about then?
> 
> ...


?? I agree with what you said but why are you suddenly talking about doves??

What I told him is what I am using on my own flighty pigeon. He's never going to LIKE being grabbed. Not even doves do. But it is working well for me with getting my pigeons used to being handled and remaining calm.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

altergromit said:


> I supposed the same; but just I think it needs a bit more time... ...When Giovanni was "out of the cage" he didn't eat (there were food around) and when he is very calm close to me he doesn't accepts food from my hand or even my finger yet. ...Just when he is close to me he is calm, "sleepy"... ....Sometimes he watches at me, not worried and with *peaceful eyes*.... ^^


If isn't interested in food it is because he is probably not hungry. His freedom was more interesting than the food.

Do you just leave food in his cage all the time? I would feed him twice a day out of your hand.


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> ?? I agree with what you said but why are you suddenly talking about doves??
> 
> What I told him is what I am using on my own flighty pigeon. He's never going to LIKE being grabbed. Not even doves do. But it is working well for me with getting my pigeons used to being handled and remaining calm.


I saw it in one of your replies so I pointed out to the difference between doves and pigeons which IMO doves make the best pet anyway it's not the main subject & I don't mind removing it If you don't like it or don't find it making any sense, yes some pigeons get used some of them are stubborn likely because of their experience with humans.


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*Perches....*



> Here you can buy cheap ready cut pieces of wood from stores that sell everything. You can buy a few pieces about 2" wide and just put them through the bars


...I think you're right, next time I'll try to take him I'll do the way you said!  ...But I'll wait for a bit, I really don't want to stress him too much... ♥

...About


> you mentioned that your pigeon is flightless, what are you worried about then?


 He flight by "shelf", so in a house he can go on the top of my library and so; I have many shelf and again he can fall during his attempts. Anyway, it is a matter of time, he is a "new pigeon", I'm "new" to him...

...About the perches, this is what I did; I hope he will like it....


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

> Here you can buy cheap ready cut pieces of wood from stores that sell everything. You can buy a few pieces about 2" wide and just put them through the bars


...I think you're right, next time I'll try to take him I'll do the way you said!  ...But I'll wait for a bit, I really don't want to stress him too much... ♥

...About


> you mentioned that your pigeon is flightless, what are you worried about then?


 He flight by "shelf", so in a house he can go on the top of my library and so; I have many shelf and again he can fall during his attempts. Anyway, it is a matter of time, he is a "new pigeon", I'm "new" to him...

...About the perches, this is what I did; I hope he will like it....


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Abdulbaki said:


> I saw it in one of your replies so I pointed out to the difference between doves and pigeons which IMO doves make the best pet anyway it's not the main subject & I don't mind removing it If you don't like it or don't find it making any sense, yes some pigeons get used some of them are stubborn likely because of their experience with humans.


no, its fine. I was just confused. Doves definitely make much easier pets, but I think all pigeons can become calm when handled. Though they'll still bite and protest! they won't feel like they are going to dislocate their wings just to get out of your grip.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

ANY pigeon can be held without it going crazy. IF you know how to properly hold a pigeon. Yes several will struggle at first when you catch it to hold it. But once held right they seem to relax. Held plenty of pigeon wild and tame Never had any problems After they were placed right in the hand.. It can be explained on how to hold. But there are videos showing how to hold them out there. And as the saying goes seeing is better then reading. Look up a video and practice. Soon you will be able to hald this bird or others vary well


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

Thank you re lee;


> ANY pigeon can be held without it going crazy


 yes, I know that, it is only I'm so worry to hurt/scare him... ...The first time it was a bit like a "shock" for me... ...I have to go over that, I know. When Giovanni see my hands, most of the time he is "alert", then he moves his wings a lot, he "shouts", he try to go very fast far from me and it makes the thing hard. So I'm afraid he could have a heart attack or so... I hope I'm wrong, but it is so hard to do something that scares him so much... ...I talk to him, I spend time enough with him or "around" him every day, I take care of him and I just hope sometimes I'll be able to "handle" him well.... ♥


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

altergromit it's not your fault you are trying to be good with him but his experience says never trust human because someone was ill treating him before you got him, overall If there is no need to hold him do not, try to spend more time with him he has to see you feeding him and changing his water etc .. he'll realize eventually that you're his owner and that you won't hurt him still he will be wary and cautious because that's what he is " a wild pigeon"


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*Dreaming like a pigeon...*

Thank you Abdulbaki; I'll do my best and like Giovanni is always dreaming of going to sleep again my library, I dream of touching him sometimes without his fear...


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I would put his cage the other way, not tall like a tower, better the height to become the length on the floor. I didn't read through all the posts; may be it was not mentioned already..
And as for him to be a tame pigeon...he will become tamed in his time and on his terms. Just pay attention to him, rather than what you want from him.
Treats are the best way to tame a pigeon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That cage is so tall, but he must have a hard time getting up there. Pigeons can't fly straight up like that. Wider is better, and Lisa is right about them not wanting to be on the floor. Pigeons naturally roost as high s they can by instinct. They feel safer that way. Lisa has given a lot of good suggestions actually. They don't by nature, use round perches where they have to grab and hold on. They like a flat perch or a shelf. 
Can you replace those round perches with a board like you have under the nest? I don't think that a pigeon living in a cage and never being let out will ever be happy. Would you like to live your whole life in a cage? He needs to be let out daily. How lonely and shut off he must feel. As far as catching him again, just let him out in the evening for a couple of hours. When you want to replace him to his cage, just turn the light down and pick him up. Pigeons don't see well in the dark and so should not fly off from where they are perched. Turn the lights out completely if you have to and use a flash light. It's easy. A lower cage, set on a small end table that you could put anywhere, would be a better pigeon cage, as long as he is let out daily for his well being. 

As far as making friends with him, that is a lot harder with a feral pigeon that was caught as an adult. They are wild and view people as predators. Some may learn to accept you, but will never become friendly. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that would take a lot of time, and then too, it depends on how the bird was treated or handled before you acquired him.

I can see that you are really trying to make him happy and comfortable, but you need to try to put yourself in his place, and try to understand what he feels and needs.
Lisa has good instincts.

I just noticed the pictures where you did add the shelves over the round perches. That's very good. Much better. Good job!


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

*Cage...*

I understand and I really thank you Jay 3 (and everybody here) and I do the best I can. But anyway I live in town, I live in a little apartment, I bought that cage and I cannot do that much more (talking about money) and to me it seems like he likes it enough, especially thinking he has a "short" rabbits' cage where I found him trying to "jump" from the ceiling... ... I know larger would be better but, again, I don't have room and I'm trying really my best...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well it's much better now with the flat shelves. Really, all he needed was the top half with a table under it. Would have cost less, and not taken up any more room. We aren't trying to make you spend more money. Just explaining that a pigeon needs more width and not as much height. They don't fly straight up, so a higher cage is difficult for them to get around. Just explaining pigeons is all. He didn't need all that. He does need time out of the cage though.


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## altergromit (Sep 11, 2012)

Like I said he is wild, I cannot put a cage on a table, I share a big room with him and I love that, but I cannot change the room so much... ...I also know he really love to go up, he like that. He will "free" in the room sometimes again, but it is not easy for the way is the apartment and he has a bad balance; also he needs his time (I think) and I need to know I'm not doing anything bad to him; I have to learn. I love him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't think you are understanding what I am saying, but that's okay. You're doing fine.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

altergromit said:


> Like I said he is wild, I cannot put a cage on a table, I share a big room with him and I love that, but I cannot change the room so much... ...I also know he really love to go up, he like that. He will "free" in the room sometimes again, but it is not easy for the way is the apartment and he has a bad balance; also he needs his time (I think) and I need to know I'm not doing anything bad to him; I have to learn. I love him.


If the cage take up space if turned 90 degrees and suspend on the wall, if will take no space / from your walking space. Just an idea.

You should let him out f the cage at least 30 min a day. There is such thing: pigeon diapers , if you are worried that he will poop in you apt. Though i have lots of experience with rescues in my place/in the bedroom, i know that he will chose the place on top of the cage and that will be most of the time for him to spend out and pooping .


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