# Penny isn't feeling well



## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi, I posted this on my previous thread but thought maybe I should start a new one. Penny is definitely not feeling well. She's quite inactive, more so even than when she was sitting on her eggs. She's staying all puffed up and closing her eyes a lot. I noticed it mostly this morning but it could have started some yesterday after I took her eggs away. i did worm her last week, could that make her not feel well? She's not really eating either. Ioffered her some oat groats, which she likes, and she just picked them up and then tossed them aside. Her poop is a bit runny, as it has been since she was wormed. Please help! Sandy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, what did you worm her with and how much did you give her?

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Well, I think it was Ivermectin. My small animal vet got it for me from her clinic from the Avian vet. I gave her .2 cc for three days.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where, basically, are you? (in case we need some resources quickly)

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might read this post about dosing that stuff:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=236073&postcount=48

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

I read the postings on the dosages. Maybe she got too much? But it's what the vet prescribed. I gave the last dose on Friday and she seemed fine until today. I'm in northern Virginia. Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you post a picture of the current poops and the bird?

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

I can try. i don't have much luck getting photos to post. I can try them through the webshots, I guess. I'll ahve to wait until she poops again. Also, I ahve been trying to get her to eat something and she seems to want to eat but almost acts as though she can't get anything down. SHe picks it up, mouths it a bit and then tosses it aside. I've tried all of her favorites besides her seed-the oat groats, her grit, lettuce and small bits of corn chips, which she loves. I couldn't see anything in her mouth but will ahve to wait for my husband to come in and hold her so I can get a better look. I'll try for the pictures as soon as I can. Thanks, Sandy


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

I can't seem to get the photos to upload to webshots to be able to post them. I don't know if it's my connection or webshots. Her poop is very small, mostly white with a touch of dark, pretty runny. Tonight she also did something I haven't seen her do. She arched her neck, beak open, and kind of retched several times, while in a slight backward movement. She did actually regurgitate a small bit of ? Looked like soft food of some sort. She's almost acting like there's something stuck. She is drinking when I offer her water. But she's trying to stay to herself more than usual. I also noticed some bite marks in some greenery in a flower arrangement on the table. Could they be toxic to pigeons?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You don't happen to have anything like Metronidazole, do you?

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

I do have some, I think. I put it in a different bottle and wrote Metronidazole on it, but I don't know what strength they are. I neglected to write that on the bottle. I also ahd massaged her throat and crop thinking maybe something was stuck. It kind of crackled or gurgled when I did that. I will proably take her to the vet in the morning if she's not better.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you describe those pills and measure them?

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

The pills are "caplet" shaped, white, about 3/4 of an inch long. They have the letters PL and VA on them. I can't tell what the middle letter is, as they are all cut in half. Also numbers 334. I can't tell if there is another number between the second 3 and the 4. Could she have somethign stuck in her crop?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know. They don't usually get stuff stuck in their crop but it can happen. They sometimes regurgitate due to worms and canker can cause an obstruction as well. Did the stuff she threw up smell particularly strong or bad?

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Now she's also acting as if she's having trouble drinking. She sips some water, then opens her beak in a stretching motion and flips her head to the side. SHould I try to get some water into her? I'm worried that I'll harm her in some way doing that.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... nothing like a good mystery... (the pill)

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, those are PLIVA 334s, a 500 milligram generic Metronidazole:

http://www.drugs.com/forum/pill-identification/pliva-334-can-you-tell-me-what-25020.html

For dosing, there are many possibilities and protocols on that. Let me ask you to smell her breath (open her beak if you have to and get your nose right down there) and see if there's any bad odor.

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

No, the stuff she threw up looked a little like wet bread, or similar, and didn't smell. It was just a small amount. I couldn't see anything that looked like canker, as described here, in her mouth. Guess I'll have to hope I can get into the vet early tomorrow.


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Just got your last post. I did smell her mouth and there was a faint, kind of food smell, but it wasn't bad or foul. Kind of normal smelling, I guess.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Canker can sometimes occur way down in the bottom of the crop where you can't see it. It can cause an obstruction and even eat through the crop. These are odd circumstances, to be sure, but I would probably give her 1/8th of a half of one of those caplets once a day for the next week just in case.

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

So actually 1/16th of the entire pill? Do I just put that down her throat or dissolve it in some way or ??

Thanks, Pidgey

Sandy


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

The symptoms of canker sure seemed to fit hers for sure. I will try and smell her mouth again. I did it with her mouth closed. Would she smell if it was canker?

Sandy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, 1/16th of the entire pill.

Yes, there might be an odor. Frankly, when they get the canker way down in the crop, we often lose them before we get them diagnosed. As such, it's just better to treat preventatively.

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Okay, I'll see if I can get 1/16 of a pill down her. Okay to just give the little piece of the pill dry? As she's having trouble eating, will it go down?

Sandy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure. It'll go down and dissolve in her crop. You just need to get it down past her airway.

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Sorry to sound ignorant, but how far down would that be? If I get it into the bottom of her mouth, as far as I can put it, will that get past her airway?
I sure don't want to lose her. I'm so worried aobut her. It's so hard to see her like this when she's normally so bright and active. It seems to have come on so suddenly, unless I missed something but I usually pay pretty close attention because I enjoy watching her eat and I give her treats by hand. Anyway, I appreciate your help!!!

SAndy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, open her beak all the way up and look inside to see the back of the tongue. Behind there is a little oval called the glottis--that's the airway. Just drop the piece of the pill in and then hold her beak shut so she swallows it--it's not going to be that big.

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Okay, thanks. I'll go give it a try. Hopefully my husband is still up so he can hold her for me while I open her beak! Thank youf or your help, Pidgey. Good night.

SAndy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, at least come back and tell us how it went!

Pidgey


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

If You E-mail The Pictures You Needed Posted I'll Be Glad To Do It For You My E-mail Is [email protected]

I'm No Smart Preson When It Comes To The Problems With Pigeons Still Learning But Could It Be PMV


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

HI, Thanks for the offer Horsesgot6! I may try that. I posted sopme pictures once from wedshots but it keeps shutting down. Wish I could jsut insert them straight from my computer.

Anyway, it was a busy day yesterday, never got on the computer. I took Penny to the vets and left her there. The diagnosis was canker. I just couldn't see it. My eyes aren't too good up close! She's on an antibiotic and she seemed much better yesterday but she is still puffed up and lethargic. She keeps trying to eat and does get a couple of seeds down and some water. Should I try and rehydrate her or maually feed her for a while? I ahve a good recipe for a soft food that I used on Gabriel bird when he was a baby. I'm afraid she's not getting enough food and water down.
Pidgey, I did get a bit of metronidazole down her the other night and I think it did help. She was at least preening her feathers the next morning. I'll keep that fact in my little head for later use.

Thanks, Sandy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sandy, what is the name of the canker medicine the vet gave you? Usually, they start improving within 2-3 days. Did the vet say if the canker was in Penny's throat and that she visually saw it?

Personally, I would feed Penny to keep her strength up. However, before you begin feeding her could you tell us how you hand feed? My reason for asking this is that sometimes we can break off the canker causing the bird to bleed too much and you don't want that to happen.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hard to say which way to go. It's not as safe to give them formula if they're regurgitating as formula is more prone to being aspirated (breathed into the airway) than regular food. On the other hand, it's far more likely to go through if there's an obstruction.

If a bird has a lot of reserves and by that I mean that if it's not emaciated (extremely thin), then it's often better to let it go for a few days with food around that it can choose to eat or not. When it's canker and you've started treatment, there's often a miraculous turnaround after two or three days. That's what you're really hoping for at this point.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You might try making a thin formula from rice cereal. Use the kind developed for human babies. [To that you can add just a bit of Nutrical which you should be able to purchase from your vet's office.] Start with a small amount of formula to see if Penny can keep it down. Next time feed more and if she keeps that down, add a bit more the next time. 
Perhaps Maggie can tell us how much Nutrical to use. I haven't used it in many years and forgot about it until Maggie brought it up.


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Thanks, Maggie, Pidgey and Charis. The anitibiotic Penny is on is Ronizol 2.5% She gets 5 drops 1xday. I know she is a bit better as she is now chortling a bit when I touch her, and biting me, which she hadn't done before she was medicated. The recipe for the baby pidge food I make is from a book on rescuing wildlife, and seems to work well. It's a combo of hard boiled egg yolk, milk, some baby cereal or I use cream of wheat, oatmeal-and I soemtimes add some seed. I think there's one or two more ingredients, can't remember off the top of my head. I amke little beads out of it, dip it in water to make it slippery and then I pry their beaks open,and put it down their throats. She's a bit feisty to handle but I'm managing the drops. From what the vet said, the canker is in her mouth, though I couldn't see it. It was so busy when I picked her up I couldn't talk to the vet then. Maybe I'll call and make sure it isn't down her throat or in her crop.
Thanks for your help.

SAndy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Chances are, she had the canker organism the whole time but came down with the clinical disease (Trichomoniasis) when she got hit with the wormer. Most of these things knock them a step back and then the lurking opportunistic infections take over. You might want to consider running all your birds (if you have more than Penny) through a course of anti-canker medications.

Pidgey


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

I was told that stress could cause the canker. I had read that lots of birds are carriers, so you're right Pidgey, she probably ahd it and then the wormer did the trick. Besides getting off of her enst at the same time. I talked to the vet and they said the canker was just in her mouth. They want me to bring her in tomorrow and show me how to tube feed her, as she still isn't eating. She keeps trying but doesn't want to take anything into her mouth. She did get a couple more seeds down. She was in good condition before all this so hopefully she has enough weight. She's also my only pigeon, for now, just a pet and lives in though she goes out for exercise. She still looks pretty miserable, though she reacts to my touch with chortles and bites-which is more her normal attitude.

Sandy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Canker can be some pretty horrible stuff. The most destructive part of it is due to an overreaction by the body's immune system. Anyhow, the site's going down here in a few minutes (according to the announcement) so we'll be out of touch for awhile. I'll email an address that you can get me at just in case.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Sandy, I'm glad Penny is improving. The Nutrical that Charis mentioned is a vitamin-type supplement that we give to malnourished pigeons we get in on rescues. We add about 1/4 - 1/2 inch to the formula. It does help add calories.

Hopefully, when the vet shows you how to tube feed they'll give you some formula to use too. 

You mentioned Penny is a house pet but does go outside to exercise. If you let her free-fly, I just want to caution you that it makes her vulnerable to hawk attacks. If she flies in your house that should be sufficient exercise for her. You can put her outside in a cage for some sunlight every day but make sure she has a shady area to move to in case the sun gets too hot on her.


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi Maggie,
Thanks for your information. Penny actually ate quite well today, better than the last couple of days. She even ate some sunflower seeds and grit without it seeming to bother her. SHe drinks pretty well, but the water eems to bother her more than the food, as she will gape her beak open and shake her head after she drinks. I'm hoping the discomfort will go away soon. We are leaving for FLorida on Friday and she will come with us, but I want to be able to take her to the vet beforehand if necessary. She does fly outside sometimes, only with us around. I know the chances of hawks, and we do have them but I don't let her outside if I see any. And we have lots of crows that are good hawk chasers. She usually spends time in the barn and garage if she's out. Or helping my husband work on the vehicles. She thinks she's quite a mechanic!

Thanks for your help, everyone!

Sandy


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

*Penny is back to normal*

Well, Penny has improved everyday and now is acting her old self again. She was following me around the house today as I was watering plants and doing other chores. She is still on antibiotics for another week and then I'll treat her again in two weeks. Thanks for everyone's help!

Sandy


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## nbdyuknow (Apr 10, 2007)

That's great to hear! Go Penny!


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Sandy,

I'm so glad to hear Penny is doing so well. We have all been rooting for her. I think the worst is over now and she is truly on the mend. You have done a wonderful job caring for her.

Margaret


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sandy, that is terrific news. Canker can really get them down but thankfully it begins to clear up after s few days and you would never know they had it. I'm very happy for you.


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## sandy51955 (Jul 1, 2007)

Thanks everyone. Penny is in great shape. I'm glad that the canker was diagnosed and we started her on the antibiotics quickly. Always learning about so many things! We are in FLorida now and she has made herself at home in the RV. She is so entertaining and we really enjoy her antics. She loves the TV and we have a perch made for her in front of the front television. Thanks again for everything! Sandy


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