# Genetics ?s



## Kimberly_CA

Ok so I have spent the last hour trying to understand everything about genetics. I am trying to get some idea of what my babies (currently eggs) might look like.

From what I have learned this morning is my hen is a homozygous grizzle, she came from two grizzle parents I learned that means. She is all white except a tiny bit of black "dusting" on 2 of her tail feathers. ("stork marked"...I think thats what I read) also some black on her beak and she has colored eyes. So. This means homozygous grizzle (blue), yes?

and my boy.....I originally thought he was a blue with the spread gene (making a black). But then I saw someone mention "dark" grizzle". What does that look like? I looked it up but was unsuccessful. 

So, what do you think he is? and am I correct about her? I looked at chart after chart but none were specific enough to hint even a guess @ what the babies might look like....any guesses?

and a long shot.....he is a lahore or something that has feathered legs.....will the babies have them too? (mom does not)

Thank you for reading....even if you don't know the answers..or hey if you even know one thats awesome


----------



## jbangelfish

*Hmmmm........*



Kimberly_CA said:


> Ok so I have spent the last hour trying to understand everything about genetics. I am trying to get some idea of what my babies (currently eggs) might look like.
> 
> From what I have learned this morning is my hen is a homozygous grizzle, she came from two grizzle parents I learned that means. She is all white except a tiny bit of black "dusting" on 2 of her tail feathers. ("stork marked"...I think thats what I read) also some black on her beak and she has colored eyes. So. This means homozygous grizzle (blue), yes?
> 
> and my boy.....I originally thought he was a blue with the spread gene (making a black). But then I saw someone mention "dark" grizzle". What does that look like? I looked it up but was unsuccessful.
> 
> So, what do you think he is? and am I correct about her? I looked at chart after chart but none were specific enough to hint even a guess @ what the babies might look like....any guesses?
> 
> and a long shot.....he is a lahore or something that has feathered legs.....will the babies have them too? (mom does not)
> 
> Thank you for reading....even if you don't know the answers..or hey if you even know one thats awesome


The white bird is most likely a very light stork marked grizzle. 

The dark bird, hard to say from the picture but I'd call it some form of pied and from the picture again, I'd say black but can't be sure from the photo. Can you take another picture with a side view? This bird is certainly not a Lahore but probably some type of Tumbler. Many of them are feather legged. The babies are likely to have some feathers on their legs but you never know.

Are you certain that the dark bird is the cock bird and the white is the hen? It looks the reverse of that to me but tumblers and rollers have a feminine look and the white if it is a homer, well, they tend to have a masculine look.

Bill


----------



## Kimberly_CA

Well....he was on top  so unless they have created a new age position I think he is male  

I just took this pic 5 minutes go and put it in picture sharing. I never even noticed the red tinge because he is a house bird. But the sunshine wow it brings it out. Now i'm even more confused... 

Thank you so much for your help

Buck -

(I didn't cut those wings, found him like that)


----------



## jbangelfish

*Well, the hens will get on top*



Kimberly_CA said:


> Well....he was on top  so unless they have created a new age position I think he is male
> 
> I just took this pic 5 minutes go and put it in picture sharing. I never even noticed the red tinge because he is a house bird. But the sunshine wow it brings it out. Now i'm even more confused...
> 
> Thank you so much for your help
> 
> Buck -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I didn't cut those wings, found him like that)


But ordinarily, the cock bird will do so first. Do they have eggs? Whoever sits overnight is the hen and whoever takes the day shift is the male if you are unsure. They will normally switch from hen sitting to cock sitting sometime between 10AM and noon but it can vary from one pair to the next considerably.

The male will always chase (called driving) the female to the nest when they are within a few days of egg laying. This is another way to tell who is who.

The black bird which is probably kite (bronze on the shield area) is most likely some type of muffed tumbler. When this bird regains it's ability to fly, it is pretty likely that it will make single sommersaults (or maybe two) while flying. It is what they were originally bred to do. It is also badge or beard marked which are traits of tumblers as well and these are forms of pied. There is no grizzle to the bird.

Bill


----------



## Kimberly_CA

wow that is very cool. I love pied animals and never heard of "kite"......so I gotta ask? care to venture a guess at the babies?

Yes he sits during the day and she at night  When you say chase is it pretty short? He was kinda rushing up to her but only for a couple secs. Then he would sit in the nest forever and call her to him. When they were mating the white one would groom his face and then they would lock beaks....she always went for it. Then after 20-30 seconds of beak locking kind of circling around the cage (what is the purpose of this? My guess is it has to do with crop milk? Like she is making sure he will provide ...b/c she was getting something outta there I think)....anyways after the beak locking she would kneel in front of him kind of vibrating her wings and he would get on. I watched this 5 or 6 times and never saw her on top. Call me a bird pervert lol, I found it fascinating. 

Thank you for all your wonderful answers Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*OK, your'e a bird pervert*



Kimberly_CA said:


> wow that is very cool. I love pied animals and never heard of "kite"......so I gotta ask? care to venture a guess at the babies?
> 
> Yes he sits during the day and she at night  When you say chase is it pretty short? He was kinda rushing up to her but only for a couple secs. Then he would sit in the nest forever and call her to him. When they were mating the white one would groom his face and then they would lock beaks....she always went for it. Then after 20-30 seconds of beak locking kind of circling around the cage (what is the purpose of this? My guess is it has to do with crop milk? Like she is making sure he will provide ...b/c she was getting something outta there I think)....anyways after the beak locking she would kneel in front of him kind of vibrating her wings and he would get on. I watched this 5 or 6 times and never saw her on top. Call me a bird pervert lol, I found it fascinating.
> 
> Thank you for all your wonderful answers Bill


I would guess that all of your young will be grizzles as I think that mom is homozygous or double factor grizzle. Colors could vary but the bronze is likely to show itself. The pied should also come out and you are likely to have varying amounts of white wing tips, badges and beards. The predominant color is likely to be dark or blue black, streaked with white(grizzle) and varying amounts of pied markings.There is no way of predicting everything as these birds could also carry other recessive genes that do not show.

The breeding and courting behavior that you describe is perfectly normal. Some males are more aggressive and seemingly relentless, than others. Some mistake it for bullying as it can be alittle rough but it is their way.

I don't know what to tell you about all the preening and pre breeding behavior except to call it foreplay. The feeding is a ritual and I'm not sure if anyone can tell you it's exact purpose but I suspect that it has something to do with stimulating the proper hormones to make her lay her eggs and so on. Females will lay eggs without the presence of males but normally not as often. 

Bill


----------



## Kimberly_CA

Wow those sound like beautiful color possibilities. very very cool  u have been such a help, I was so lost before. There are so many variations out there it's amazing. I think grizzle is gorgeous and im excited that it seems I will probly get one. awesome 

and if the bronze does show thats ever more awesome. Gosh I can see where you all got started now.....I can see the future, and it's full of pigeon poop lol


----------



## mr squeaks

What a STUNNING PAIR, Kimberly!!

Will sure look forward to seeing babies!!

Hugs

Shi & Squeaks


----------



## Kimberly_CA

Thank you so much. Wow to hear you use the word stunning...well garsh it just makes me so proud  

When I was called to get this bird the lady just said "he's dark" so I was expecting like a dark blue checker or something like that since she found him just out and about. When I opened the box I was like, wow....


----------



## RoundAbout

I think you birds are beautiful, too. It is always fun to see what the colors are going to be in babies. I have some Birmingham Rollers, red check and blue check. The red check and his ash red bar would have mostly red check babies with an occasional pretty ash red bar. I wanted to know what would happen when a red mated with a blue, and almost exclusively their babies have been an all over red brown with gray underneath (I don't know the name of that color). They are so much the same I can't tell them apart when they grow up.

I had one muffed hen (feathered legs) and out of all her babies she had one muffed daughter. The daughter has had several muffed babies.


----------



## george simon

*HI ROUNDABOUT, If you mate a red hen to a blue cock you will get red young a they would be cocks the hens from this mating will be blue.Now the young cocks will be carring a second color that will be blue. So they the young cocks when mated to a red hen could give you blue young when he does it will always be a hen. This is what is called a sex linked mating .........You must understand that the cock bird can carry two colors while the hen can only carry one color and that is the color that you see she gives this color to the young cock the father of that young bird gives one of the two colors that he may have to the young cock thus the male birds gets one color gene from each parent.Now if he gets the same color gene from both parents then he is pure for that color and can only pass that color to his young*.........GEORGE


----------



## Lovebirds

george simon said:


> *HI ROUNDABOUT, If you mate a red hen to a blue cock you will get red young a they would be cocks the hens from this mating will be blue.Now the young cocks will be carring a second color that will be blue. So they the young cocks could give you blue young when he does it will always be a hen. This is what is called a sex linked mating .........You must understand that the cock bird can carry two colors while the hen can only carry one color and that is the color that you see she gives this color to the young cock the father of that young bird give one of the two colors that he may to the young cock thus the male birds gets one color gene from each parent.Now if he gets the same color gene from both parents then he is pure for that color and can only pass that color to his young*.........GEORGE



George, correct me if I'm wrong. If the young RED cock carrying BLUE is mated to a BLUE hen and you get BLUE youngsters, then you couldn't tell if the BLUE BABY is a hen or cock because BLUE could have come from either Dad or Mom...........right? So, that scenario isn't a sex-linked mating. The first one is and I understand that part. I've got a couple of those type matings in my breeding loft, so I learned that part a long time ago. Actually, it's about the ONLY thing I learned.


----------



## george simon

*THANKS RENEE,That sentance should read.So when they the young cocks are mated TO A RED HEN he could give you a blue young when he does it will always be a hen..........a red cock carring blue mated to a blue hen can give you two blues in the nest. good thing that you caught it right away I have made the change in the first post. I type so fast with two fingers that I get ahead of my self LOL LOL* ..GEORGE


----------



## Lovebirds

george simon said:


> *THANKS RENEE,That sentance should read.So when they the young cocks are mated TO A RED HEN he could give you a blue young when he does it will always be a hen..........a red cock carring blue mated to a blue hen can two blues in the nest. good thing that you caught it right away I have made the change in the first post. I type so fast with two fingers that I get ahead of my self LOL LOL* ..GEORGE


 That's funny. My husband types with 2 fingers too.....


----------



## Lovebirds

Ok. Let me see if I've got this now...........cause I didn't think about it.......If you use a RED cock from a sex linked mating (Blue cock x Red hen) and he's mated to a RED hen, then any BLUE babies will ALWAYS be hens (if there's no hanky panky).........So actually, ANY blue babies you get from two RED birds (cock and hen) should be hens. Is that right?


----------



## george simon

Lovebirds said:


> Ok. Let me see if I've got this now...........cause I didn't think about it.......If you use a RED cock from a sex linked mating (Blue cock x Red hen) and he's mated to a RED hen, then any BLUE babies will ALWAYS be hens (if there's no hanky panky).........So actually, ANY blue babies you get from two RED birds (cock and hen) should be hens. Is that right?


 Thats it RENEE, Of course in a open loft there is much hanky panky,thats why it best if one has the room to breed in individual breeding pens or cages. ..GEORGE


----------



## jbangelfish

*Ash red, yes, not recessive red*

Is that what you guys meant?

Bill


----------



## Lovebirds

jbangelfish said:


> Is that what you guys meant?
> 
> Bill


For me, "RED" is always ash red. I've never even had but one recessive red bird so when I referred to him, I always use "recessive red"...........all other "reds" are just reds........
Of course, that's just me, but I believe most fanciers tend to do that don't they? If someone mentions a red bird, I automatically assume they mean ash red.


----------



## bluecheck

Here's where you bump into breed usage. If you're a homer guy, then red almost invariably means ash-red. Silver almost always means an ash-red bird with the metallic silver head.

If you're a roller guy, self red means recessive red, but red usually means ash.

Other breeds use various terminologies. That's why I tend to use genetics terminology when discussing stuff. I can and do shift to "pigeon usage" when speaking to friends and other fanciers about birds, but the genetics usage is often more accurate.

I mean - most folks are at a loss to understand color usage in Oriental Frills 

Frank


----------



## Lovebirds

bluecheck said:


> Here's where you bump into breed usage. If you're a homer guy, then red almost invariably means ash-red. Silver almost always means an ash-red bird with the metallic silver head.
> 
> Frank


That would be me, cept' I'm a homer GAL..............LOL


----------



## Guest

then what is a red mealy bar considered an ash mealy bar or a silver bar whats what  ? :s


----------



## Lovebirds

LokotaLoft said:


> then what is a red mealy bar considered an ash mealy bar or a silver bar whats what  ? :s


It's an ash red bird. What it's called depends on who you're talking too. I call them Silvers.............just because that's what I always heard. Didn't make much sense to me and still doesn't but the people I talk to and call it Silver know exactly what I'm talking about...........


----------



## Guest

yeah I always called them silver bars myself and was never corrected til I came here lol but I think I will still call them silver bars none the less


----------



## bluecheck

There actually is a difference, even in homer usage between a mealy bar and a silver bar. A mealy bar is an ash-red bird that has sooty showing in its wing shield. The equivalent in blue would be a pencil.

A silver bar is one without sooty and often with the "gris" head, as in the old Sions and Stassarts. Here's a Silver Bar (Ash-red bar) (note the head and neck blend) http://www.pigeonfanciers.ca/images/gallery/gardner/show_racing_homer.jpg


You can see a mealy here in the top right. Note the "smudging" in the shield, that's sooty (a genetic factor) http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/Red.html

Here's a pic of an ash-red bar smoky (the blue equivilent in homers is called a slate) http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/picturesredpigeons.html
The bird on top is the smoky ash-red

Here's a smoky blue (slate) http://www.pigeonstud.com/page12.htm


You have to remember that a lot of the information and color listings for pigeons were created by breeders before there were bands available and before anything was known about genetics. If your bird strayed (or was taken by a flock) to another breeder's place, you had better be able to describe the bird in full detail if you ever expected to get it back. Hence, you'll hear something like: "It was a mealy tic hen" (an ash-red sooty hen with a small patch of white just behind the eye), etc.

Frank


----------



## Margarret

OK, I've read through the ash red article a couple of times and tried to apply it to one of my birds.

I still am having trouble with the silver vs. smokey. Here is an OH. Her flights were cut when I got her last year so we can't see more than a little of the wing bars. She looks very silver in some light, especially around the neck, but her head is darker gray. Her tail, however is very light. Would she be a smokey or a silver ash red?

Margaret


----------



## jbangelfish

*Silver red bar*

Silver red bar is one of the ash red or mealy colors. Many don't use the term mealy unless checkered or T pattern but it doesn't matter.

This bird could be indigo but I doubt it as it is pretty light. That said, there are many modifiers that lighten colors.

Smokey is a tough one to see in many birds. It lightens the dark areas and darkens the light areas. In black, you can't see it but the bird will have a lighter bill than a black without smokey. On blue birds, it darkens the albescent strip (the white strip on the last outside feather) on the tail to blue instead of white. In ash reds, the tail is all ash so I'm not sure how it would change them.

Bill


----------



## re lee

Margarret said:


> OK, I've read through the ash red article a couple of times and tried to apply it to one of my birds.
> 
> I still am having trouble with the silver vs. smokey. Here is an OH. Her flights were cut when I got her last year so we can't see more than a little of the wing bars. She looks very silver in some light, especially around the neck, but her head is darker gray. Her tail, however is very light. Would she be a smokey or a silver ash red?
> 
> Margaret


The bird in the picture would be called a mealy bar. Far as mealy being t patterned or checked I have never seen any being called that. Most mealys are bared except some that are barred slight t patterened.


----------



## jbangelfish

*Just depends on who you talk to*

Or what book you read. Silver red bar, ash red, mealy all describe the bird but silver red bar clears it all up and everyone should know what you mean.

Bill


----------



## re lee

Then you have red velvet And the silver line in race birds would go in line to the red velvet As both have the lighter color flights tail and head. Where mealy still shows the ash color which is deeper set. Some silvers are near white in the flights tail and head.. Of course now days true silver is in race brirds. BUT the softer feather from true silvers hampers the birds some what in racing. For Many years race birds were called some what different far as colors. As they were not one of the breed lines being color bred as much. Most added colors to race birds were breed color outcrosses. This was a progress setting As both color and race abilty had to be worked on.. But you can notice a large difference bewteen the mealy and the named silver line in race birds. The silver is lets say a much cleaner looking bird. Then you have the indigo. Where a barred indigo is often mistook as a mealy bar.


----------



## george simon

*Dilute Blue =silver*

[B A dilute Blue Bar is silver ! The dilute of Red is Yellow sometimes called Cream Bar!The dilute brown is Khak!The dilute of Black is Dun! Race guys have been calling Red Bars, Silvers. This can not be because Geneticly silver is the dilute of blue! So I propose that on the genetic forum we use the correct genetic name and the race guys can still call their red bars silver on the racing forum. [/B] GEORGE


----------



## jbangelfish

*Hi George*

I always say that as long as you call it silver red bar, we should know what they are talking about and true silver is as you say, dilute blue. I believe that the silver red bar is an accepted term for show, if I remember right and it certainly makes clear what bird we mean. To just call it mealy leaves it open as to which one as just calling it ash red would. There are many birds that fit this category.

When people say red or yellow, I always think recessive red or yellow but homer people are almost always referring to ash red and ash yellow. Not ever having been a homer person, I am confused by this.

It's hard to get everyone to accept the proper genetic terms when they are so accustomed to the homer jargon or whatever. 

It would be nice if here in the genetic forum, people would use proper genetic terms, at least to distinguish colors anyway. If we all started using nothing but genetic terms and only refer to gametes, zygotes, alelles, loci and the like, I'll be just as confused as anyone as I try to speak and think in simple terms. I've probably read the Quinn book 100 times and refer to it just about every day. It still confuses me and I have a pretty good but yet basic understanding of genetics.

Bill


----------



## Margarret

Thanks everyone for discussing the color I posted. I agree that we should use the genetic terms as otherwise we will be all over the map. So if I have it correct, a silver red bar would be a bird carrying ash red, blue and dilute?

Margaret


----------



## jbangelfish

*Hi Margaret*



Margarret said:


> Thanks everyone for discussing the color I posted. I agree that we should use the genetic terms as otherwise we will be all over the map. So if I have it correct, a silver red bar would be a bird carrying ash red, blue and dilute?
> 
> Margaret


No, a silver red bar is ash red and is not dilute. It also is not blue but can be split for blue if it's a cock bird. If a cock bird, it could carry blue but would show black flecks in wings and tail and it could also carry dilute. The dilute of silver red bar is creme bar. Dilutes of any color are more common in hens as cocks that are split for dilute will produce dilute hens (about half of them) even when mated to normal hens. Also a cock that is dilute will produce all dilute hens when mated to a normal hen and all his young cock birds will be split for dilute. These examples are the reason for more dilute hens than cocks.

I know it's confusing at first but you'll get used to it. I did.

Bill


----------



## george simon

*HI BILL, I agree we need to keep it simple, the term may be confusing to some as they may think a Silver red bar is a dilute. In my last post I left out recessive yellow as being the dilute of recessive red and I should have included it also.I often wonder why race people call a blue a blue bar and they call red bars, silver you would think that they would have kept simple and just called them red bars. At the being of this past race season. I went to the first night shipping while there one of the members came to and said that he have a Mosaic that he was shipping to the race,and he wanted me to take a look at it. Well it realy turned out to a INDIGO when I told him that it was an indigo he said to me. He said "oh no my friend Joe told me is a mosaic" * ..GEORGE


----------



## re lee

george simon said:


> [B A dilute Blue Bar is silver ! The dilute of Red is Yellow sometimes called Cream Bar!The dilute brown is Khak!The dilute of Black is Dun! Race guys have been calling Red Bars, Silvers. This can not be because Geneticly silver is the dilute of blue! So I propose that on the genetic forum we use the correct genetic name and the race guys can still call their red bars silver on the racing forum. [/B] GEORGE


Race people use both terms. Mealy bar and silver. silver being seperate from mealy. As silver being as I said lighter through the flights and tail plus head. near say whiteish silver. That has been races peoples idea of silver for many many years. Mealy being from ash red you either get mealy. red check or closed ash red. Which many race peoplew call red. NOW most all other breeds have ash red plus ressesive red. SO one should use the ash red or resessive red name. to sepperate the two. True silver though does come from the bule as blue times silver keep the color strong. Also resessive red produces gold Which is between yellow and red. And resessive red improves yellow but dilutes the red showing dull and blue through the tail feathers. . The old rule was blue cock over silver hen blue hen over silver cock. Then one wouldThe good silvers. BUT remember in race birds color was not the game as I have said before. Out breed out crosses were a 2 job method color times abilty. . AND as far as color goes. What is failed in development is people fail to breed any known color to improve quality. This causes alot of set back as If a great bird of 1 color was used to improve the over all quality of another color more often. then color would be seen more for what it is. And over quality would improve at a better rate. We all know color yes takes some time to set. but quality does to. Breed cross has improved several lines of many show type birds. The down fall to unmasking hidden colors is reproducing hidden old line faults. This hurt many a breeder when Joe Guinns note book gained popularty back in the 1970s. Then rebuilding not only color lines but quality was started over. It is hard enough working 1 color line of birds And harder with each added color. 
Remember build the house then paint the house. genatic breeding evovles to an art. Its a tool But a pretty car with no engine does not work to drive. What I mean Is We must advance slowly with seen quality as the goal when working any color.. I guess I carried on enough.


----------



## jbangelfish

*Hi George*



george simon said:


> *HI BILL, I agree we need to keep it simple, the term may be confusing to some as they may think a Silver red bar is a dilute. In my last post I left out recessive yellow as being the dilute of recessive red and I should have included it also.I often wonder why race people call a blue a blue bar and they call red bars, silver you would think that they would have kept simple and just called them red bars. At the being of this past race season. I went to the first night shipping while there one of the members came to and said that he have a Mosaic that he was shipping to the race,and he wanted me to take a look at it. Well it realy turned out to a INDIGO when I told him that it was an indigo he said to me. He said "oh no my friend Joe told me is a mosaic" * ..GEORGE


Yes, they have chosen to call certain birds mosaics and chocolates but these are merely nicknames I suppose. Still, these terms confuse the people into not understanding what the colors really are. I've seen mosaic used in other breeds too, including rollers. Why the race people insist on chocolate for indigo, I have no idea but they have more of them than probably any other breed and have had them longer. Maybe that's why they chose to give it their own term. Ash red was referred to as dominant red until Doc Hollander decided to change it. It takes someone pretty high up the totem pole to get it accepted everywhere.

Blues with black bars have been called blue bars by show people, race people and genetic people as well. It's not as confusing, at least to me, as calling ash red silver, at least without including the red bar part of the name.

Bill


----------



## Margarret

OK, here is where I am getting hung up. I understand the ash red part. Usually around the neck, the wing bars or checks and the tail band. Now what is the rest of the bird, the background the red is on, called? There can be an ash red silver which is a light background color with very light head and tail, smokey which is a gray or darker color and so forth. I know smokey is a genetic trait. What causes the silver part, the lightness? It seems the dilute refers to the red color, not the background it is on. Am I making any sense here? Oh, I also understand how a cock can be split for two colors, display one and the other be masked or just show flecks.

Margaret





jbangelfish said:


> No, a silver red bar is ash red and is not dilute. It also is not blue but can be split for blue if it's a cock bird. If a cock bird, it could carry blue but would show black flecks in wings and tail and it could also carry dilute. The dilute of silver red bar is creme bar. Dilutes of any color are more common in hens as cocks that are split for dilute will produce dilute hens (about half of them) even when mated to normal hens. Also a cock that is dilute will produce all dilute hens when mated to a normal hen and all his young cock birds will be split for dilute. These examples are the reason for more dilute hens than cocks.
> 
> I know it's confusing at first but you'll get used to it. I did.
> 
> Bill


----------



## george simon

*HI MARGRET, First thing forget the silver. This is what causes much confusion. The red bar and the red check both have a ash color in the primary flights and the tail, red bar also has that ash color in his wing shield while the red check has darker red checking in the wing shields. Sometimes these birds will have a white feather in the primary flights you can't miss it as the contrast between the ash color and white can easly be seen.* ..GEORGE


----------



## jbangelfish

*Hi Margaret*



Margarret said:


> OK, here is where I am getting hung up. I understand the ash red part. Usually around the neck, the wing bars or checks and the tail band. Now what is the rest of the bird, the background the red is on, called? There can be an ash red silver which is a light background color with very light head and tail, smokey which is a gray or darker color and so forth. I know smokey is a genetic trait. What causes the silver part, the lightness? It seems the dilute refers to the red color, not the background it is on. Am I making any sense here? Oh, I also understand how a cock can be split for two colors, display one and the other be masked or just show flecks.
> 
> Margaret


I don't think that I can say it any better than George can but I'll try.

You can forget the ash red color anywhere or at least the red part of it. The ash or silvery color can completely cover the bird and you will have lavender or some other form of ash red. It is more a gene than a color. There are literally hundreds of variations of ash red. Many are not very pretty and many others are very beautiful. There is just alot of variation. The base color is ash red in all of these birds, no matter what it looks like. By genetics, it is still ash red and you can add a huge variety of modifiers, such as check, bar, barless, spread, t pattern, grizzle, dilute, reduced, opal and so on. The bird is still ash red. 

People have chosen to give these variations their own names so one will know what we are talking about, instead of merely saying that we have an ash red bird. Does this make more sense? Forget the implication of the word silver or red when we are talking about pigeons. Unless used in their proper context, they can mean any number of colors and variants.

Smokey is a modifier and not a color. It just darkens the light parts and lightens the dark parts, confusing in itself. Smokey blacks will have light beaks and no other telltale signs. Smokey blues will have the darkening of blue and white and lightening of black. The albescent strip on the outermost tail feathers of smokies will be blue instead of white.

Further on the color silver which is not popular in homing pigeons, due to soft feathers of dilute. True silver is simply dilute blue and will have black bars and a black strip as blue has in the tail. It may be alittle lighter but could be called black by most standards. This may be the biggest difference between true silver and silver red bar as ash reds and silver red bars will never have black bars in wing or tail.

Bill


----------



## Kimberly_CA

wow, i have no idea what any of you are talking about. Maybe someday, one can dream


----------



## TAWhatley

*Experienced Breeders - Please Read*

Well, you all left me behind a long time ago with all these posts BUT .. PLEASE use the correct and proper terminology and symbols here on Pigeon-Talk in *THIS* forum. Even though this is a new forum for us, I do NOT want us to lose the respect that this board has because we are sloppy in this forum. I cannot possibly moderate it because I don't know the subject. I'm depending on those of you who do to make this a PROFESSIONAL level forum. That doesn't mean not to help beginners, but it DOES mean that you please use the right terms and symbols and try to teach the rest of us.

Thanks!

Terry


----------



## jbangelfish

*Thanks Terry but it does take time*



TAWhatley said:


> Well, you all left me behind a long time ago with all these posts BUT .. PLEASE use the correct and proper terminology and symbols here on Pigeon-Talk in *THIS* forum. Even though this is a new forum for us, I do NOT want us to lose the respect that this board has because we are sloppy in this forum. I cannot possibly moderate it because I don't know the subject. I'm depending on those of you who do to make this a PROFESSIONAL level forum. That doesn't mean not to help beginners, but it DOES mean that you please use the right terms and symbols and try to teach the rest of us.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Terry


I don't want to intimidate people into not posting here because they might not know the proper term for something. None of us knew these terms in the beginning or what they meant. Some of them have even been changed during our lives and some will probably change again as some great teacher of genetics comes along and makes more sense of something. I also believe in keeping it simple and try to put all of these things into words that anyone can follow. This is where many books on genetics get confusing. The colors and genetic factors are what they are and all we can do is try to get everyone on the same page in regards to them so that each of us knows what is being discussed.

Anyone can learn this stuff if they take the time. Basic genetics are fairly simple and follow simple rules that don't change. To learn about them or to speak about them, it works best if we stick to the proper terms as we will all come to understand what is being said. It's difficult to accept unfamiliar names for something that you've known by another name for many years.

I welcome any and all genetics interest and questions to this forum and I appreciate having the forum as much as anyone. I am the one who asked for this in the first place and now, here it is. For me to have this after coming to this site just a few months ago, I find it difficult to put into words the gratitude that I feel.

While I may have alot of answers to questions on genetics, I have even more questions myself. I've studied them for many years and expect to continue learning about them for the rest of my life. It is a fascinating subject, at least to me, and apparently to some others as well. 

Bill


----------



## re lee

Now I may be wrong but I thought lavender was a dilute of black. And lavender and black are both bred together. Just as the diltue black pictures you showed on a thread. Which shows lavender, And a good colored lavender makes for a decent looking bird. AND I do agree somewhat on true color BUT in race birds the colors have been noted even for show and show entry goes as those colors have became to be known. WHY because race people most anyways have not worked so much on color BUT mostly performnce. And then the few that do build colors Loose many more birds. BEcause some colors can not fly the full race course. IF those birds was used for sprint to mid distance many would be able to compete. Soft feathers break down on the tough races races. This to is a genetic concern . The need to produce a harder strong feather on a colored bird. Which is and can be done. Genetics is more then color. It is for improvement also. I know a person that used a giant runt to improve his lahores After he reset the lahores feature He went on to become a N P A master breeder. What I am saying no venture is out of reach as long as it is explored. I have raised and bred several different breeds over the past 50 years Pigeons comes in all colors And can be bred in all colors. Quality is bred with work and dedication. To have both it is an art.


----------



## jbangelfish

*No, lavender is ash red, spread*



re lee said:


> Now I may be wrong but I thought lavender was a dilute of black. And lavender and black are both bred together. Just as the diltue black pictures you showed on a thread. Which shows lavender, And a good colored lavender makes for a decent looking bird. AND I do agree somewhat on true color BUT in race birds the colors have been noted even for show and show entry goes as those colors have became to be known. WHY because race people most anyways have not worked so much on color BUT mostly performnce. And then the few that do build colors Loose many more birds. BEcause some colors can not fly the full race course. IF those birds was used for sprint to mid distance many would be able to compete. Soft feathers break down on the tough races races. This to is a genetic concern . The need to produce a harder strong feather on a colored bird. Which is and can be done. Genetics is more then color. It is for improvement also. I know a person that used a giant runt to improve his lahores After he reset the lahores feature He went on to become a N P A master breeder. What I am saying no venture is out of reach as long as it is explored. I have raised and bred several different breeds over the past 50 years Pigeons comes in all colors And can be bred in all colors. Quality is bred with work and dedication. To have both it is an art.


Dilute black is dun which appears sort of smoky gray in color. To get lavender, you need the spread factor from black and the ash red gene as well. Many of these are in betweens and not that pretty. There are many birds produced before a good lavender shows up. I've always been amazed at the lavender of Lahores as it is the best lavender that you are likely to see. I believe that they have milky factor in addition to the others that make lavender. It must have taken many generations to make them so pure and clean lavender.

The birds that I showed were reduced black which is altogether different than dilute black. Reduced black has yet to have it's own name other than the actual genetic term as far as I know. As we see more of a color, it may well get it's own name as well, such as the dilute of recessive red being known as yellow or the dilute of black being known as dun. It just takes time for everyone to settle on something.

Homer people have their own names for alot of colors and that's Ok. It's what they are used to. Racing people have not been concerned with color as much as flying and homing ability which stands to reason. Competition Roller people have been the same way and color is secondary to performance, or not even considered in some cases. I like both and have alot of work to do.

Show people have been the most concerned with color and I'm just somewhere in between. They are also very concerned with the proper head and body type which is also genetics but more linked to good family genes and strong show type. I like interesting colors and patterns and as long as I'm working with Rollers, they have to roll.

Bill


----------



## re lee

Ok then tell me why in some breed people use lavender with black to work there lavender color. And yes lahores have a clean lavender as does other breed


----------



## bluecheck

Okay folks -- you're all saying the same thing, and getting mixed up in the differences of fancier terminology and genetics terminology.

First: lavender - the word is used by many different breeds for stuff that is very different genetically. In Homers and rollers, e.g., a "lavender" is usually a Spread Ash-red bird.

In mookees, Laughers, and Lahores, a Lavender is a Spread milky (the base pigment may be blue/black, brown, or ash-red.

When most folks today want to move "lavender" to their breed, they are discussing moving Spread and homozygous milky - most want the "lavender" color of the Lahore.

Milky is the mutation that makes a "powdered" fantail. So to have "lavender" in your breed (using the Lavender term to mean that in Lahores and Mookees, e.g.) you need to have a bird that is either homozgyous or heterzygous Spread and which is also homozygous milky.

You can't "make" milky, you need to import it from another breed if you don't have it in your birds. 

Frank Mosca


----------



## bigislerollers

Aloha Re Lee.
The accepted standard for lavender is Ash Red + Spread, except in Lahores which their "Lavender" is blue/black, spread, milky and i think dilute. (not positive on the dilute). Hope someone here can confirm or correct me.

OK, blue check beat me to it.


----------



## re lee

bluecheck said:


> Okay folks -- you're all saying the same thing, and getting mixed up in the differences of fancier terminology and genetics terminology.
> 
> First: lavender - the word is used by many different breeds for stuff that is very different genetically. In Homers and rollers, e.g., a "lavender" is usually a Spread Ash-red bird.
> 
> In mookees, Laughers, and Lahores, a Lavender is a Spread milky (the base pigment may be blue/black, brown, or ash-red.
> 
> When most folks today want to move "lavender" to their breed, they are discussing moving Spread and homozygous milky - most want the "lavender" color of the Lahore.
> 
> Milky is the mutation that makes a "powdered" fantail. So to have "lavender" in your breed (using the Lavender term to mean that in Lahores and Mookees, e.g.) you need to have a bird that is either homozgyous or heterzygous Spread and which is also homozygous milky.
> 
> You can't "make" milky, you need to import it from another breed if you don't have it in your birds.
> 
> Frank Mosca


Ther now I can agree. As different breeds represent the breed color standard and make up. And color density. I was refuring to a good lavender color Clean from sooty look. Such as lahore. opel. even clean modena lavender. . To me lavender from ash red is sooty and not say a pretty colored bird. The reason I debated this As I know people that have raised lavender and used black in lavener breeding.. And yes through color break down unmasking hidden carried colors of different birds One can and will find many hidden colors as one back breeds the birds. I have seen this as I said When genetic color breeding in the 70s opened the doors. But Like i said I also saw the tear down of very good birds They withered to lets call them back yard bird That would lose a one bird show. And like I have said getting color is the easy part It can come from any known bred line it just takes time to set. But getting Quality is the harder part. Now crossing other colors for quality NOW that is the best method to improve on Not fearing color break down But see over all Quality improvement. .


----------



## jbangelfish

*To keep spread factor going?*



re lee said:


> Ok then tell me why in some breed people use lavender with black to work there lavender color. And yes lahores have a clean lavender as does other breed


I'm not sure other than that. A spread ash red cock is dominant over just about anything else, maybe everything else. If he is not homozygous for spread, not all young will be spread and only half would be lavender. Since lavender is nothing more than spread ash red, I don't know exactly why it would be done except that it will work and it will continue the spread factor. I have some very interesting lavender birds that came from lavender and black and also from ash yellow and black. I will post them soon. There are several roads to making lavender that will work.You only need two factors. The milky factor in Lahores and the pureness of the lavender has made them something unique. There could be other breeds with this pure lavender today, I just haven't seen them yet. Genetically, they are still ash red birds (which they look nothing like) with spread factor and milky factor. If you take away the spread factor, they become a muddy mess of brown and red hues with silver (colors, not genetic terms).

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*Now that is interesting*



bluecheck said:


> Okay folks -- you're all saying the same thing, and getting mixed up in the differences of fancier terminology and genetics terminology.
> 
> First: lavender - the word is used by many different breeds for stuff that is very different genetically. In Homers and rollers, e.g., a "lavender" is usually a Spread Ash-red bird.
> 
> In mookees, Laughers, and Lahores, a Lavender is a Spread milky (the base pigment may be blue/black, brown, or ash-red.
> 
> When most folks today want to move "lavender" to their breed, they are discussing moving Spread and homozygous milky - most want the "lavender" color of the Lahore.
> 
> Milky is the mutation that makes a "powdered" fantail. So to have "lavender" in your breed (using the Lavender term to mean that in Lahores and Mookees, e.g.) you need to have a bird that is either homozgyous or heterzygous Spread and which is also homozygous milky.
> 
> You can't "make" milky, you need to import it from another breed if you don't have it in your birds.
> 
> Frank Mosca


The fact that the base color can be all of these things. How would we indentify one from the other? I would expect that we could see a difference and lavender Lahores seem to all look alike. The milky part is exclusive to only a few breeds that I know of and have only seen Fans, Indian Fans and Lahores that I remember to have it. It is probably more widespread today.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*I don't think they are dilute but not sure either*



bigislerollers said:


> Aloha Re Lee.
> The accepted standard for lavender is Ash Red + Spread, except in Lahores which their "Lavender" is blue/black, spread, milky and i think dilute. (not positive on the dilute). Hope someone here can confirm or correct me.
> 
> OK, blue check beat me to it.



I even had them for a while and I don't remember the lavenders as being short downed in the nest. Still, I missed many things over the years as I kept too many birds to note everything. I'm pretty sure that they are not dilute as milky already lightens them and they would be very pale if they were dilute as well. I'll wind up with some dilute lavenders from my birds and am actually interested to see what they look like.

Bill


----------

