# Humpty Dove



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Humpty is throwing up. Yesterday morning she threw up 5 times in about 1/2 an hour. The first time she threw up white, cloudy, slimey, mucousy, stuff. The next time it (the slimey stuff) was yellow with a few seeds, the 3rd time it was yellow with no seeds, the fourth time she tried very hard and couldn't get anything up, and the 5th time it was green and she sloshed it everywhere, even on the top of her head. We left for church and I only know for sure that she threw up one more time yesterday. From this 6th time I saw no slimey stuff, but there was a lot of flakey, leftover seeds and a dirty liquid mark all around the flakey seeds. It seems as if she threw up a lot that time. 
Well, today she will not eat. She does drink. 
Today she threw up _red_ slimy stuff. 
I don't know what to do, and I don't have a clue what is wrong with her. Saturday she acted perfectly fine and was her usual self. 
Humpty is such a sweetie and she's my practice mate like Fluffy used to be. She sits on my music stand for hours watching me practice and just totally plops out on it in the most comfortable position she can get herself in. Now she just stands on my dresser looking pitiful. 
Please, please help me. 

Lichita


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lich...so sorry about your baby. Man I wish I knew all the stuff that the others know.........and as much as I hang out here, I probably should......LOL
But I don't. I don't know what to tell you. Hopefully someone smarter than me will be along shortly. Good luck..........


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Alice .. so sorry to learn that Humpty is not well. Could she have eaten something toxic? Is the red in the slimy stuff blood or can you tell?

Terry


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

Lichita,
This is serious and it could be so many things. Can you get the bird to a vet asap? She's dehydrating so if you have the ability to syringe water down, it would be helpful. Do you have any antibiotics on hand? I have no idea what this is but one of the possibilities is that she swallowed something that she shouldn't have and it got caught in the gizzard. Is she bending forward?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Alice,
I'm sorry to hear about Humpty. 
If you haven't already done so, I would suggest providing supplement heat to her. Placing her on a towel lined heating pad, set on low, or placing her under a low wattage lamp will do. This will help to maintain her body temperature.

You stated she* is* drinking, just make sure she's drinking enough, as all the vomiting will dehydrate her very quickly. 

Cindy


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm not sure if it is blood, but I do not think it is because when it dried it stayed the same color and did not turn dark. No, she is not bending forward. I gave her 5 cc of water yesterday, but did not today because she is drinking. 
I have Ampicilina, Amoxicilina, Cefalexina, Ciprofloxacino, Elequine, Flagyl, Polibatrin F, Tetraciclina, 4 in 1, Ascapilla+, Doxycycline, Enroxil, Global's Multi-Mix, Global's Respiratory+, Ivomec, and Sulmet. 

Licha


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

Would you consider putting her on Flagyl and Enroxil? If you can't get her to a vet, you don't have much to lose using these two excellent drugs. Who knows if she can even hold these meds down? She's losing more fluid than she's drinking so I think she needs water syringed down. I would take her off of solid foods for 48 hours and use a thin formula instead.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

Alice,
I keep mulling over what you described and it sounds very much like a blockage. Try to syringe a CC of mineral oil down her. It may help.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

What would the dosage for the Baytril and Flagyl be? I'll go get her weight and post it a little later.
I will get mineral oil when we come home from class today.

Thank you so much!

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I just walked into my room to weigh her and she threw up twice.  This time the slimey stuff was white and cloudy again.

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Approx. 120g 

Will another oil work? Olive or cod liver? I might not get home from school until as late as 4pm. 

Alice


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Alice,
I'm sorry to hear Humpty Dove is still feeling under the weather.

Has she been given *anything* by mouth, other than water? If you are using plain water, I would suggest replacing with rehydrating solution? 

Cindy


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

Don't use cod liver oil. It's loaded with vitamin A and could poison the liver. I don't know about olive oil. I can't think of anything else other than a true obstruction and vets will use mineral oil to try and clear it. One day, she's well, I assume she's acting normally and droppings are good and the next, she can't hold anything down. This came on very acutely and I just feel without knowing for sure, that this is due to an obstruction. You know that without a vet, all we can do is try to guess at all of this and that makes it rough and sometimes dangerous but you can't hurt her if you syringe mineral oil down. 
I'm not even sure now if using the antibiotics would do anything. They certainly won't help if there is an obstruction. I would use mineral oil and then, over the period of the day, syringe water or Pedialyte down. I'm sure she's losing more fluid than taking it in by drinking.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Licha,

I am very sorry to hear Humpty is not doing very well. I think at this point that you need to get Humpty to a vet ASAP, as pigeonperson has said, there are many things it could be. With the amount of regurgitation and vomiting Humpty has been doing I thing it imperative that you not wait, he needs a diagnosis and supporting therapy, such as Sub-Q or parenteral fluid therapy and these are treatments that are best left to experienced hands. With acute situations like this, especially in smaller birds, there usually is not a lot of time to play with, please see what you can do about getting some professional help today.

In the meantime, see what you can do to coax down some re-hydration fluid into him as Cindy suggested.

Good luck with him,

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Snapshot dose for your Enroxil:

Put 0.2 ml (2/10ths of 1 cc) in 10 milliliters of water and dose at 1 milliliter, twice daily.

Snapshot dose for your Flagyl:

Make 3 little flakes the size you normally make when you do aspirin and put those straight down the throat. Otherwise. you'd need to crush a quarter tablet and put it in 26 milliliters in water if it's the 250 milligram tablet; in 52 milliliters of water if it's the 500 milligram tablet; and give one milliliter of whichever twice a day (shake the fool out of it every time right before you draw the dose) . If the bird throws up within minutes of administering it, you probably need to give it again.

This sounds really serious, Lichita, and I wouldn't rule out it being blood. When the stuff's diluted in water, it usually doesn't turn the scab color when absorbed in paper. You can probably only assume that water's making it through if you're getting plenty of true liquid out the back end of the bird. When they really start getting dehydrated, you start getting some chalky looking stuff out the back end. This could be a lot of things including threadworms but I'll admit that I've never seen bloody vomit in a bird.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Bad news, Jaz--Lichita is in an area where the only vet is large animal. That's not to say that he's worthless, just pretty unfamiliar with birds. We could hope that he could utilize some basic diagnostic equipment and give supportive fluids subcutaneously but that's, unfortunately, about it. This ain't good.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pidgey, you are right, this is not good. My first thought was perhaps yeast, but another thought did pass through my mind. If this bird is free-roaming in a home office environment, there is the possibility that he may have swallowed a staple, this might help explain the acuteness of the onset and the red in the vomit. Please everyone, be careful if your birds free roam, I have an unreleasable bird, who is sometimes in my office, and everything on the floor goes into her mouth. 

The vet could at least do an x-ray to eliminate this possibility, if Licha says he free-roams and could have swallowed something like a staple, give fluid therapy, may be able to narrow down a diagnosis, and prescribe some Nystatin, (some trade names for humans:Mycostatin, Nilstat, Nystex) or something stronger if it is fungal.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might look into getting some Nystatin, if possible. I can't remember if I sent you any of that or not once upon a time. If I did, it'd be called "Medistatin" which is how you order it from JEDDS:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=71&SubCategoryID=758&ProductID=3085

...but it's likely that you could get another form of it across the border. It's not absorbed from the intestinal tract so it only affects yeasts and fungi in the GI. It's a contact medicine--it has to touch the fungi in order to stop their growth. That said, it's safe to use with the other medications.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Nystatin was my first thought to give Humpty. Too, if she can get Pedialyte or plain Gatoraid, try to get some of that in her. The dehydration is the most important thing to focus on right now.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I got Pedialyte, but it is sabor coco. Is that ok to give her?
Humpty was in her cage until about a week ago. I had to take her out, but that's another story, another problem. 
Anyway, she could have swallowed something because she was out, but I have thought about it a lot since the first time that she threw up and I can think of nothing. There are no staples in my room, no stapler, not even in the house. I can't rule out that she swallowed something though, because she's been out. I just don't see or can think of anything loose in my room that she could swallow.
I bought mineral oil. Do I give her the antibiotics? 
She threw up one more time before I left this morning and it was only water, probably because I just got through giving it to her. 
When she throws up it is not a lot, and half the time she just _tries_ to throw up and nothing comes up. She "tries" to throw up, but you can tell she's trying not to. 

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

By the way, all of my birds except for Popeye and Daisy were wormed at the beginning of last month. 

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

My mom said that I can get Nystatin in Mexico. 
Also, we found out that there are 2 vet supply places over there. I went to one to look around and they have a few things like Enroxil, but I'm not sure if it is cheaper on this side of the line or not. 

Alice


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, so the question of what's coming out the back end of the bird can help you tell whether or not he's dehydrating. Start the antibiotics as they're not going to hurt at this point and they might help.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

A whole bunch of white splotches with a little green dab in the center.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Your Enroxil was US $30 for 100 milliliters @ 10% solution. Sometimes, it's easiest for cost comparison to figure out what the stuff costs per milligram or gram of actual medicine. So, yours is $3/gram (1 milliliter is 1 gram and you've got 100 milliliters times 0.1 to correct for the concentration so 10 grams of active ingredient). You'll just have to cost it out over there to compare.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> A whole bunch of white splotches with a little green dab in the center.


Would you classify those white splotches as "chalky" or what you'd imagine if you mixed a lot of talcum powder with a little water?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

No, they aren't chalky. The coconut Pedialyte is ok?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't have any idea about that. My default answer would be to go with unflavored Pedialyte.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

They didn't have any.

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's actually kind of a quandary, though. The sugars in electrolyte solutions tend to aggravate fungal growth if that's the underlying problem. The biggest reason for using them is for birds that you suspect of having real dehydration issues and the loss of electrolytes. That's what the pinch of sugar and salt that are in the rehydrating solutions that Cindy has posted about are for. Since Humpty has been drinking all along, I guess it's a matter of whether enough is going through the bird. That's what everyone has been scared to death about with this case. If you think Humpty's well hydrated then you might not oughta' give that stuff if the bird's essentially stable for fear of a fungal infection.

So, we'd normally rule out a bad fungal due to the dryness of the climate and if you worm them on a regular basis then we'd normally rule that out, too, for the most part.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, Humpty is the new dove that I got to keep Dumpty company a few months ago. "Regular basis" wouldn't fit; this is probably the first time she's ever been wormed.
My "other problem" is with Thunder Pidgey. She never laid her 2nd egg...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"It never rains but it pours", huh?

We're probably going to be reduced to hoping that the meds work on Humpty. Can you feel any extra fullness in the abdomen of Thunder Pidgey? If you feel down the keel, there is a point where it sticks out at the end near the vent. Going directly up the sides from that point is a null area at the end of the ribs but below the Pubis bones on either side. You can press inward there to see if it feels soft and squishy inside or whether there's a firmness in there that there shouldn't be. Use another hen for comparison.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I can't say I feel any difference between Thunderbird and Diamond...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that would be a good thing. I've seen sick birds eventually pass eggs. That is, I've had sick birds that I was treating for whatever all of a sudden produce an egg after they started feeling better. In the wild, an awful lot of hens ultimately die of egg peritonitis, which is essentially an abdominal cavity infection due to one form of reproductive disease or another. Those mostly occur because of lack of minerals, vitamins and just plain hard living. Hens typically only live to be half as old as cocks due to the demands of forming eggs.

Anyhow, we'll just hope that she's not eggbound but it never hurts to make sure they've got plenty of calcium, especially since you've got the calcium gluconate now.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Her water has been with the calcium gluconate. I've been keeping their cage humid and that is why Humpty came out of her cage. TP's and Dumpty's cage is on top of Humpty's, so I covered both cages and put the pot of boiling water in the bottom cage to try to keep it humid. That's why Humpty had to be out. 

Alice


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Such an odd couple, bless their hearts!

How's Daisy doing these days?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Licha, I think it would be wise to get Humpty on the Nystatin as soon as possible. Although as Pidgey mentioned, where you live reduces the incidents of fungal and worn infections, my initial thoughts on reading about the first milky mucousy regurgitation was a fungal infection and it's a very safe drug and we would have this covered. 

Ron


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Daisy and I are still fighting together. Her main improvement has been to not go in to stargazing when she is frightened. Also, she seems more interested in what is going on around her now. I haven't notice any difference after I started her on the calcium from her improvement before she started it. 
I will get the Nystatin when I go over to Mex for school tomorrow.

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Since I gave her the mineral oil earlier, Humpty's droppings have solids in them. They are little round balls of poop with a big blotch of oil around them. Well, I think her last dropping has a little yellow bug in it. How can I tell for sure???

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I think it might have a worm in it, too, but I don't know because I've never had a bird with worms before and I don't know what they look like.
The little thing that looks like a bug is brownish-yellow. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Isolate what you think is the bug and the worm, get them in a jar or vial of water to get them nice and clean and then examine them with the strongest magnifying lens you can lay your hands on. Take them to your vet and see if he'll look at them in his microscope. But find out.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

They're seeds. Now she has undigested seeds coming through.  But at least it's not bugs and worms!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I wish you had access to an avian vet!

Undigested seed is a symptom of "hardware disease", this is what Ron (Jazzaroo) referred to earlier when he expressed his fears that Zara had swallowed a staple. 

In his book "Problem Droppings Explained" F.D.W. Harper says 

" Occasionally (usually in hens) during the nesting period, the bird suddenly "goes off", it eats very little and may vomit, Examination of the droppings may show that the bird is passing whole or partly digested corn. This is a strong indication that the bird has swallowed a wire or a nail which has lodged in the gizzard. "

He goes on to say: "Nails and wires are the most common causes, but blackthorn and other twigs, maize-cob fragments and disease of the gizzard muscle can sometimes cause a similar picture. Vegetable materials may digest away. Pins and fine wires may be digested or may track through the abdomen and emerge through the keel". 

Cynthia


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

She threw up again this morning. No slimey stuff, just very green, mushy stuff and again undigested seeds. She ate a few seeds yesterday, but I guess it didn't do her any good.
Well, she could have swallowed anything since she was out but:
Somehow or another we ended up with a lot of SAT test booklet thingys and I have been tearing those up to use in my birds' cages. Well, this morning I remembered that those are stapled together- so, she could have swallowed a staple.
What can I do if she swallowed something? 
My poor Humpty- she looks worse every day. :'(

Lichita


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

To be honest I don't think there is much you can do. If there is a staple in there it can be removed by surgery but it would require an experienced avian vet. The alternative is to wait and see if it works its way through.

Cynthia


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

My poor, poor little birdie.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> She threw up again this morning. No slimey stuff, just very green, mushy stuff and again undigested seeds. She ate a few seeds yesterday, but I guess it didn't do her any good.
> Well, she could have swallowed anything since she was out but:
> Somehow or another we ended up with a lot of SAT test booklet thingys and I have been tearing those up to use in my birds' cages. Well, this morning I remembered that those are stapled together- so, she could have swallowed a staple.
> *What can I do if she swallowed something? *
> ...


Hi Alice,
An X-ray would be the first plan of action to determine if she actually did swallow something.
Do you know if there are any avian vets, or any vet, in Sierra Vista that could take an X-ray? 

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> An X-ray would be the first plan of action to determine if she actually did swallow something


That is true. It is still just a possibility.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Alice, as Cynthia said, right now it is still only a possiblity, but the accutness of the onset and some of the symptoms where the reasons I raised this possibility. Please make sure she is hydrated and I would add some honey, say 1:1 with water, a few times a day into her fluids to try and keep her energy level up. The only way to truly confirm if she swallowed something metallic would be through an x-ray. I know Pidgey said there were no avian vets in your area, but I would think most vets should be able to do an x-ray, to confirm or remove this possibility.

Also, in the meantime, since she is having trouble digesting, you could get some more nutrition into her by mixing up some Kaytee Exact if you have some, to a watery consistency and slowly syringe say 5cc 2-3 times a day into her it will help keep her going (if you find she can't handle the 5cc, cut it down to 2-3cc and feed more often). If you do not have Kaytee you could buy some baby food, oatmeal or rice, and water it down and add a little honey to this for extra calories.

Please do start her on the Nystatin today in case what is wrong is fungal in nature.

Hope this helps a little, all the best,

Ron


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2007)

Well, here is how I analyze this:

There are four reasons that I know of why a bird would pass whole seed. One is diabetes which is related to the pancreas. Two is pancreatitis itself. Three is PDD (Proventricular Dilation Syndrome) and four is something got stuck in the gizzard.

I think it's the gizzard. It's being held open by something stuck in it and whole seed is going straight through, not being ground down by the organ. Mineral oil failed to move it out. You could try another dose but frankly, when something gets caught in the gizzard, it's very difficult to dislodge it. Surgery on the gizzard is very intricate, delicate and difficult. Only the best of the best could successfully do it. 

Try another dose of mineral oil. I think it's the only thing you can do. I'm afraid to say this but the prognosis on this isn't good. A number of people are suggesting Nystatin and you could try that. I don't think this is yeast infection but there's no harm it trying.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Humpty didn't throw up yesterday and she hasn't thrown up today. 

About Thunder Pidgey, she just laid 2 eggs. I guess she only had 1 egg to lay the first time. 

Alice


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is good news, Alice.

Is Humpty eating and pooping okay?

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2007)

Is she still passing undigested seed?


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, that's not to say she's all better, because she is still sick. She just hasn't thrown up. She's not passing undigested seeds, but that doesn't mean anything because she is not eating them either.
Anyhow, I'm feeding her what Ron said to feed her and her poops are definately better than they were but they are rather mushy. 
I got the Nystatin yesterday and started her on it today.

Licha


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Licha,

I am glad to hear Humpty has somewhat stabilized. The mushy droppings are to be expected when they go on a hand fed diet because of the increased liquid component of them, this is normal. It would be good if we could get an exact weight on Humpty to better monitor him. I am hoping the Nystatin will add to his improvement. Please keep us updated.

All the best,

Ron


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, a few little updates here...

Humpty got better very quickly after she quit throwing up. I have no idea what happened to her. Thank you guys so much for your help.
Thunderbird laid another egg yesterday and this is the first one that is actually being sat on properly. I hope it'll hatch.
Daisy's happy and eats on her own now. 

Alice


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Daisy was the other blind dove that was spending a lot of time almost stargazing, right?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Alice,

Thanks for posting the good news that Humpty has recovered from what ever was making him ill. I have thought about Humpty a few times, in the last little while, and it's good to know he is well.

All the best,

Ron


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Daisy was the other blind dove that was spending a lot of time almost stargazing, right?
> 
> Pidgey


Yessir.

Alice


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Tnews about Humty, thank you for updating us. It goes to show that however dismal a picture the symptoms paint there is always room for hope and recovery.

Cynthia


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