# Kidney failure in birds



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Seems like I have a bird with kidney failure. 
I received this guy two weeks ago. She had a pretty bad string injury with two missing toes from old string injuries probably. The left foot was wrapped with string, anyways I removed it and the foot is fine, swelling subsided, it is healing fine and she walks on it.
The bird was also very, very thin, 224gr (it is an adult).
She also had an impacted crop, it resolved and now the crop is functioning fine.
She is not eating on her own so I tube feed her. I do offer small (finch) seeds and water but she won't touch the seeds.
The main problem is she has not gained an ounce, she is drinking excessive water if I offer it, she will drink 10cc's in just a few hours, and is eliminating large amounts of fluid. Even when I don't offer water she is still eliminating tons of fluids, which makes me think that she has kidney failure.
I gave her 10 days Baytril, Flagyl and Nystatin, to cover all bases and eliminate any potential infection. She shows no improvement, so could be something viral or fungal or poisoning, have no clue.
Has anybody ever had a pigeon in kidney failure that recovered? 

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Reti,

It could be an infection that she can overcome rather than end stage failure. A few years ago one of our new rescues started drinking and passing _enourmous_ quantities of water, she filled a cupful with liquid very quickly. I used a diastick to check glucose levels and they were slightly elevated so I took her to the vet thinking that she had diabetes. He said that the most likely causes were coccidia and PMV, he was able to eliminate coccidia. A few days later the neurological symptoms of PMV appeared. The pigeon (Noelly) is fine now.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

excessive water intake symtomscould mean Paramyxovirus infection, Coccidiosis , which is stated on chevita..so if the baytril did not help her perhaps it is the virus..or resitant strain of cocci, do you think it is too much to deworm her?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for your responses.
I was thinking first of PMV, have had several birds with PMV and they did drink and eliminate excessive amounts of fluid. But she is not showing any neurological signs. I read somewhere that they can have PMV without the neuro signs, I guess it is possible.
I am sure it is not end-stage renal failure, at least in humans most often there is anuria in end stage renal disease.
I haven't thought of diabetes, not sure if I can find the diasticks here.
I forgot to mention that I did give her the first days, Appertex for coccidia. It could be a resistant strain. SW, do you think I should give her a round of Sulfa?
I don't think she could tolerate a dewormer yet, she is very weak, lethargic and thin for that.
Also, I am not sure if I should let her drink water freely as I asked our nephrologist in the hospital and he said to limit the water intake, but that is for people, not sure for birds.
I do let her drink on her own but no more than 10cc's/day and she gets fluids also with her formula.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

We have had at least one pigeon that didn't show any recognisable neurological symptoms until she had a relapse.

According to Henri Vindevogel it is better not to restrict water when pigeons have PMV, but I don't know whether this applies when the there is another cause for the symptoms.

I treated Chickpea for coccidiosis with Baycox some time ago, but when I took her to the vet she identified two different strains of cocci in her poop so I had to give her Appertex.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is a word from Dr collin Walker about using Baycox (if you can find it) and a note about the sulpher antibiotics drugs as well:





"Treatment

There are a whole range of coccidia treatments available. Many are pharmaceutical dinosaurs and should be discarded. The one I commonly use and recommend is toltrazuril

1. toltrazuril

Toltrazuril is sold under the brand name “Baycox”. The reason I like it is that it only has to be given for two days to be effective and it is very safe.” Baycox” only requires a treatment course of two days. This means that if the condition is diagnosed early in the week the whole course can be given before the next race. The drug works in an amazing way. It substitutes for vitamin B. This means the parasite “thinks” that toltrazuril is actually vitamin B and takes it into its system but once inside the drug then kills the coccidia. Another advantage of “ Baycox “is that it can be combined with any other treatement eg. for canker or respiritary infection etc. but not with vitamin supplements that contain vitamin B. Supplementing with vitamin B simultaneously overrides the effect of the drug. Interestingly human coccidiosis is common, apparently in people with AIDS. A medico friend of mine told me that toltrazuril is used here.

The dose of “Baycox’ is 6mg/kg. As the solution is 25mg/ml this works out at 3mls/1L of drinking water. This solution is made fresh each day and provided as the sole drinking water for two days in a row. As I mentioned, any other medication can be mixed with it except B group vitamins.

2. amprolium

Sold under a range of brand names. An effective drug that has the disadvantage of having to be given for five days to clear an infection.

3. sulphur antibiotics

Sulphur based antibotics such as trimethoprim/ sulphdiazine do have some action against coccidia but they are essentially antibacterial drugs that have the side affect of also interfering with coccidia reproduction. Their anti bacterial property is usually a disadvantage because they tend to kill the good bacteria in the bowel.



As with most drugs these days, resistance to all the above medications is seen and a successful treatment can never be guaranteed even if the drug is used correctly. Because of this it isvery important to check the droppings after treatment to make sure it has worked.



"Interestingly during the race season, pigeons often seem to get into a negative disease cascade so that if one disease appears it often weakens the birds predisposing them to other diseases. At my clinic we often find that birds with coccidia also have wet canker. Many of my clients are at a distance from the clinic and even though it can be easy to mail in droppings it can be more difficult to bring in live birds. I find that birds that have coccidia in their droppings often have wet canker. And so if you do mail droppings into your avian vet and he/she finds coccidia and it is not possible to take pigeons in for a crop flush [to check for wet canker ] do be sensitive to the fact that if they have coccidia, wet caker may also be involved. If necessary the “Turbosole” (for wet canker) and “Baycox” can be mixed in the same drinking water"


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Metals? Maybe she picked up something with some zinc, lead or whatever? Is an X-Ray out of the question?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


I would say to allow her all the Water she likes...and to make it a mild ACV-Water ( say, two Tablespoons to a Gallon)...to which you would also add Electrolytes of a Potassium/Sodium/etc blend.


She may well be dehydrating otherwise, an that could damage her Kidneys.

Small, thin, convelesent Pigeons here often drink 8 fluid Ounces of Water a day..."10 CC" would be one incidental sipping session merely.

PPMV sounds certainly possible...even if no Neurologic symptoms are present, or are present yet.



Lack of appetite sounds suspicious for something Bacterial.

I can not remember ever having a PPMV Pigeon who was not either constantly eating ( or waiting for the nest assisted eating session, ) or at least normal appetite ( unless a Bacterial illness was also present).


Image of the poops?


How much ( and what kind of ) chow in a day is she getting?


Good luck!



Phil
Lv


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate your input.
I will need to check Foy's if they have any Baycox. The appertex has always worked for my birds, but you never know.
I guess I will let her water freely. She is dehydrated, her feathers are dry and her mouth is sticky. I will add ACV and some pedialyte into the water.
She is eating three feedings/day of 27-30cc per feeding. Poops are horrible, watery, small in size but many.
She are few seeds here and there but nothing that would sustain her.
She was on Baytril for 2 weeks and Flagyl. I have also Clindamycin, Rocephin, Clavamox and some more. But I have to check which ones are not indicated in kidney failure. I am not sure if I should start her on another antibiotic. 
It's a good thing she is hanging in there that makes me hopeful she will make it, but when I see her so skinny and pittyful it breaks my heart.
Xray is out of the question for now. My vet is gone and the one who owns the clinic will not just do an xray. Lately you don't get away without leaving 500$.
Will post pic of the poops in a minute.

Thanks again

Reti

Tried to get some pics but my camera is not working. She does that sometimes, will try again later.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am thinking some anaerobe-Bacterial or Oemebic/enteritis thing which Baytril does not/does not answer, is afoot...

Suflas along with Metronidazole might be one thing to try.


Have you had a fecal float/analysis done? ( Would show if Cocci, for example...)


Poop image?


X-Ray would not help for this...


Adding a little Ceyanne and powdered Garlic and Cumin to the formula, ( or any good Curry Powder ) might help...and will not hurt....as would fresh Cilantro pureed in a small Blender, adding that...or purree with it in the formula already to make puree-ing easier...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have garlic and cumin, will add to the formula.
My camera is still not working, it tells me "card error".
She was on Flagyl for two weeks it didn't make a difference.
Thanks for your input.

Reti


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Am not sure this is the right tree for the dog to be barking up....

My avian vet has mentioned 2 things in the past:

1) _a foot/legbone infection can migrate to the renal system_. So this does not surprise me.

2) In such instances, my vet prescribed Doxycycline. Although, more specifically ~ _*Vibramycin*_ (the injectible version of Doxy)...because she said birds with an already-compromised renal system cannot absorb oral Doxy very well.

In this instance, based upon what you have written, the vets around here would prescribe a week of daily Vibramycin injections. If improvement shows, then they'd move to oral Doxycycilne for another week+. This is a relatively aggressive treatment, administered in acute situations such as you seem to be describing.

I would tend to go that direction and check and see if Vibra/Doxy can be administered alongside an anti-coccidial. If so, do both. But I do think that just an anti-coccidial is not gonna be sufficient here.....and if the renal problems seem severe, I do not think oral Doxy will suffice, either.

OR, aside from all of the advice given...just get that lil' guy to a vet ASAP....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jaye said:


> Am not sure this is the right tree for the dog to be barking up....
> 
> My avian vet has mentioned 2 things in the past:
> 
> ...


what is the diagnosis?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am sorry, when I sai "X-Ray" would not help for this I had missed Pidgeys 'metal' reference.


Indeed, if he'd eaten a metallic object, an X-Ray should show it's outline...and that is one possibility...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for your input. I do have doxy but no Vibramycin.
I cannot possibly take him to my regular vet, I simply cannot affort the cost.
There are a couple of other vets further up north, about an hour and two away. I could go there, they are reasonable in their fees but I have to check my schedule for next week tonight at work (if it is out yet).
Today, for the first day she is a bit better. She did not drink any water on her own and her output seems normal, even the poops are more solid and she is not lethargic, she tried to fix up her feathers a bit.
Still, if I have more than a day off between my shifts I will take her to a vet up north.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images of her?


Images of the poops?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Camera is still not working. I think I have to delete some pics, the card might be full.
But she is even better today, she fought me when I picked her up to feed her.
I'll weigh her tomorrow to see if she is gaining any weight.
She is not drinking that much any more, still eliminates a lot of liquids but not as much as before.
Thank you all for your help.
I put her on oral doxy that is all I have, it seems to be working.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


May as well, Doxy is a good one to reach for when confronting enteritis symptoms...

It can promote Candida troubles, so, be on the look-out for any hints of that.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> 
> May as well, Doxy is a good one to reach for when confronting enteritis symptoms...
> ...


Yeah, besides the ACV I might start her on Nystatin again.
Thanks

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She did fine for a couple of days and now she started again having a slow crop and drinking more water. The crop will empty after I give her injectable reglan but it won't empty by itself.
What are the causes of slow crop? If she has PMV, shouldn't she start improving some?

Reti


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Candida or E.Coli infection could also induce slow or static crop. E.Coli and Streptococcus infection can attack the kidneys, and my understanding is that any kidney problems can cause a pigeon to drink more, and also to excrete a lot of water. So, it does not necessarily mean PMV though, as you rightly say, neurological symptoms do not have to be present in PMV.

I have one who had crop problems last week, excreted pools of water, basically, and also some green puddles. Bloodwork showed poor kidney function, though whether that was temporary or not we don't yet know. There was no viral infection found, but there was roundworm in low number, and a 'non-specific' bacterial infection which has responded well to Baytril 0.1 ml twice daily. I could and may get a further blood analysis at some stage to check kidney function after she's back up to weight and looking good.

An odd thing was that for the second time with a slow crop, I gave her one Spartrix. Her crop did start moving next day, but the vet gave her a dose of Metoclopramide (aka Reglan) which resulted in her crop returning to proper function.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,



Can you borrow a Camera, or press a Camera owning friend to help make and post some images?


Bacterial infections, Canker, Candida, any or all of these on concert can occasion a slow or even blocked proventriculus...and hence a slow or static Crop.


Worms can mess things up too of course.


John's mention of 'Strep' is a good one to bear in mind.


Has she been Wormed?


Some images of the fresh poops, and of the Bird herself would greatly help.


If not possible, then maybe consider to reach for the Baytril, the Metronidazole, and, the Medistatin/Nystatin, and begin these now...alternating med-times with tube Feeds of ACV-Water based thin formula, with-holding Seeds for the time being...and see how that goes.


If this was PPMV, we would have expected it to have done it's worst already, and for things to be improving now...I would think.


Phil
Lv


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you John and Phil.
I would think also if it was PMV to improve by now.
She was on Baytril and Flagyl for more than 10 days. She also had a round of Nystatin. 
She is curently on Doxycycline. I also restarted the reglan, that seems to help with the crop emptying. 
I would think I have covered all common infections with those antibiotics. 
She is not eating on her own and I am adding to her formula cumin and garlic powder. She hasn't gained any weight at all. 
She might have worms but she is too frail to be given an antiwormer even though now I am willing to try it as a last resort. 
I will try to delete some pics from my camera, maybe the card is full.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Can you appeal to a Vet for getting a Fecal Float/analysis done?


And or also, some Blood Tests?


Is there any odor at all detectible, with Nose close to it, to her poops?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Poops have no odor to it.
Maybe next week I can make a trip up north to a vet, I will try. I have to.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

They can get Pancreitis, Lord knows, all sorts of things which are very hard to guess or deduce impirically, other than that we know something is wrong.

Blood Tests can be very useful to identify various signatures, or, to a savvy Vet, anyway, they can.

These are only hints of course, but, 'hints' are priceless when interpreted wisely.


Had you tried any of the Sulfas? 


Or, Clindamycin, antibiotic-wise?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have used clindamycin. For now I am holding off the antibiotics, I did deworm her today, so far I have not seen any worms in her droppings.

The reason I am so reluctant to take her to the vet is, last time Yodi (my dove) was sick I spent 2000$ and never had a diagnosis, the labs only showed an increased WBC count nothing else, the cultures, droppings, liver, kindneys were all negative. The vet kept on pumping antibiotics in him. He recovered eventually but I never knew what he had.

This little baby is hanging in there, not giaining any weight but processing the food ok now, without the reglan. She had a couple of seeds today too.
I wonder if she is having cancer.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,



Oh, Oye...sorry to hear of past Vet disappointments, but, I understand..!



Please find a friend or neighbor or kindly stranger who actually owns a working Camera?


Or just go buy one, they are cheap-as-dirt now.

Or get a good used one on e-bay for even less.


Heck they were over five hundred bucks when I bought my ( still in use, takes the 3 inch floppy-discs ) Sony 'Mavica' in 1999...now one tenth that gets a dandy one, one sixth the size, and with vastly better DPI and a lot more features!

I had to get one for selling stuff on e-bay, but it sure payed off well for other things too.


Images!!!


Lol...

Do it!!


Best wishes!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pics of poops can be useful as a guide, but unless they are pretty much recognized as pointing to one specific cause, they can only be a guide. 

Also need to consider that the more, and more varied, the medications given a pigeon, the more any findings from poop samples are likely to be affected. 

When I was looking to get droppings analysed several weeks back for "Feather", where I thought Salmonellosis was a possibility, I was directed to an exotics and avian specialist not far from me. I had already started Feather on Baytril, and the vet said that *if *Salmonellosis was the problem, then (a) Baytril would be the medication of choice anyway, and (b) since he was already on Baytril, having droppings analysed for a definitive bacterial identification was, on balance, likely to be an expense for nothing, since any results would be considerably skewed by the administration of the drug.

John


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi RETI, Your bird may have a form of GOUT birds and other animals do get the gout.There two forms that birds get Articilar which affect the joints.The second type is VISCERAL this form affects the organs heart, liver,and kidneys. This form is deadly The bird is drinking large amounts of water trying to flush out URATE CRYSTALS that have formed in one or more organs of the bird. Go to this web site http://www.2ndchance.info/gout.htm Read the whole artical pigeons are near the end*GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*hi RETI, Have you check out the web site yet?* GEORGE


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good Article!


Thanks for posting that.



Phil
Lv


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great article, thanks George.
The symptoms fit with what this bird has. So, there is really not much that can be done, other than supportive care, which is what I am doing. 

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I bought a cheap camera to take the pics. Besides that the pics it takes are quite bad, it doesn't upload them to my puter, so this thing will go back and will try to get a better one next week.
Birdy is still the same. The crop function has improved but the kidney function is much the same. 

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sorry to hear about the bird. 

Have you thought about trying a kidney detox/support product? You might check a bird health website and see if there are any human grade products that can be used.

I have got one that has alfalfa, coriander seed, asparagus, celery seed extract, noni, beet extract, beta sitosterol, turmeric, and more. I'm just not sure if all these can be used on a bird, except the turmeric, alfalfa and chlorella.

Here is a website on renal issues and gout in birds, and supportive care and a kidney flush:

http://www.avianweb.com/renalfailure.html


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