# Is something wrong with this rescued pigeon's legs/feet?



## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi, and thank you to all of you who sent your best wishes to Pie (formerly called Quentin in my last post) during our beak crisis, which I'm very happy to say, he's recovered from completely (though I have had to file it again already- it seems to be a bit off set and grows very fast) He Is now eating, drinking, and pooping very well, but I am concerned about him. I don't know what's normal for baby pigeons, but something just doesn't seem right with his movement/motor skills. I don't know how old he is, I have had him for 16 days. I cage him at night (in a dog kennel) and let him have the run of the house while I am home during the day... but he doesn't walk around much at all. The farthest he has gone is about 2 feet from where I set him and that was only one time. He almost never stands up... he even sits to eat. At first I thought that this was just because he was a baby and maybe wasn't ready to walk yet- but I haven't seen any change since I have had him. It looks like it is hard for him to walk, he is very uncoordinated and kind of hobbles and stomps. His feet looked normal when I found him but are now looking funny to me... like lumpy or swollen. I don't know if he should be learning to fly yet, but so far he has made no attempt. Here are recent pictures of him and his feet/legs.

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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

*more pictures*

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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You're right -- it sounds like something is off. The feet look swollen -- and he should definitely be standing, walking normally and attempting to fly at this age is all was well (my guess is he's about 4 to 5 weeks old at this point, judging from what you said.)

The odd motor skills sound like something in the central nervous system -- with the swelling, my first guess would be paratyphoid (pigeon salmonella). It could be a number of other things too, but that is a pretty classic presentation for paratyphoid. Is he having trouble with balance?

If I were you, I would try a course of Baytril and see if that helps. 

How are his poops looking? How is his energy?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You might want to give him a good once over and see if there is any swelling on any other joints, too -- that's a good indicator of what might be wrong.

Hold him up to your ear and see if there's any rattling when he breathes (there shouldn't be) -- that's a good diagnostic as well. 

Pigeons can often recover pretty fully from paratyphoid, though some end up with residual damage -- If I had any doubt, I'd treat sooner than later -- that's my philosophy with these things.


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks for your response and suggestions  He does not seem to have trouble with balance except when he is trying to walk. when he walks, he doesn't stand up all the way and tries to walk in a half-sitting position. He holds his head up and looks around perfectly. He seems like a normal pigeon as far as his head, neck, and body area are concerned... but not his wings and legs. He doesn't use them normally. 
He seems alert; he gets excited when he eats and squeaks and flaps his wings when I approach or talk to him. He loves to be held and tries to nuzzle up against my neck. He doesn't move around much but is awake and looking around most of the day.

I don't have any Baytril... is that an antibiotic? I have clavamox (
Amoxicillin + clavulanate) liquid drops that I used for my cat and I have Clindamycin 150mg capsules.

I don't hear any rattling or anything when he breathes and I don't feel swelling anywhere else, but while feeling around, he did not like me touching his left foot (the larger one on the right in the picture) his feet felt a little warm to me, especially the left one and he kept pulling it back when I tried to touch it. That is also the foot that he stomps with (like it is heavy and harder to move). Could one or both of his feet be broken from falling out of the nest?... but they didn't look broken when I found him... and would having a sore foot keep him from using his wings? Also, I hate mentioning this, but I'm wondering if it could be any indication of what happened to him... a couple feet from where I found him on the ground below his nest (on the ledge of a building) feathers and the head of an adult pigeon were laying about 2 feet away. Could a predator have attacked them both?

Here are some pictures of his poop...one is very fresh  and a picture of the underside of his wings.

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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

*just couldn't resist posting this one too*

I never leave them together unsupervised, I trust my kitty (plus she only has one tooth ) but I don't want any accidents. When they are together though, they are SO cute

View attachment 23256


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

They look really cute

But only if the cat does not have other intentions


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks pijlover, any ideas about the feet? I'd like to start her on an antibiotic as minimonkey suggested, but I can't find any info on whether or not the ones that I have (clavamox and clindamycin) are safe... and if so what the dosage would be

Pinkie (the kitty) is a good girl...she's pretty old and can hardly chew her food and isn't much of a predator... she runs and hides when he squeaks and flaps his wings  but just to be sure, I never leave them alone together.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

I can feel your concern about the young pigeon, i wish i could help but i am not very good at prescribing meds 

What i can suggest you is that you can private message to JAYE or JAY3 or JOHN_D for help, I have found these people very helpful


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I think the feet is because of a case of splayed legs. Someone left a pigeon on my door step whose growth was stunted (probably wasn't fed enough at a young age), and he had feet just like this pigeons. They probably got swollen because of the irregular placement of the toes. I'm not sure what you could do with the swollen feet since I'm not very experienced with medications yet, but the cause appears to be splayed legs.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Baytril is the trade name for enrofloxacin, an atibiotic made by Bayer.

Actually Clavamox may be an even better choice than Baytril. I found this on another site:



> If the bird is a youngster it is wiser to use an Amoxicillin/Clavulanic acid combination-often marketed under the names Clavamox and Augmentin, instead of Baytril which is known to inhibit bone growth.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Baytril is better if it IS paratyphoid (salmonella). Clavamox is better than nothing. The dose for clavamox is 12.5mg twice a day. (the doses I have are for average adult size birds) I adjust them accordingly. Clavamox is used more for cuts and punctures.


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I started him on a 10mg dose of clavamox this morning just in case.

Gurbir, what happened with the feet on your pigeon? did the problem resolve itself? or did you need to do something?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Well I couldn't do anything since I only had the bird for a few days until my friend took him. But splayed legs can be fixed by building a "pigeon cast" for their feet. However, I'm not entirely sure if it can be fixed if the pigeon gets older, I know it can when they are young. Hopefully some people with experience in fixing the legs show up soon to help


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I don't believe this to be splay leg. 

First off, right now all we are doing is making best-guesses. A preferable path would be to take your pal to an avian vet, have his/her legs palpated, and get a CBC bloodtest to determine if there's any infection going on. Short of that...here's my 2 cents:

Your report is very sad, clearly a predator killed an adult at the nest area (perhaps his/her parent). It's possible both legs are broken or fractured or otherwise injured due to a fall or attack, thus the suggestion of a vet.

Regarding other possibilities:

It seems that there's a misshapen-ness or swelling of the joints between the toes and the legbone/foot. This is why I feel it isn't splay-leg. 
It could be a bone infection, or it could be a soft-tissue infection. Hot points on the limbs can sometimes mean this is an internal infection....Actually, swollen feet and the footpad hot to the touch may be Paratyphoid, a bacterial infection.

Clavamox vs,Baytril/Cipro: Clavamox/Amoxycillin is a good choice against anaerobic bacteria....my avian vet says it's better than Cipro for anaerobes. Both work on both bacteria, but one does a better job on one than the other. 

If there is no sign of injury at the feet or legs, this may well be an anaerobic infection (joint infections often are); so it is probably a good choice to go with the Amoxy. Remember, 2 doses daily no more than 12 hrs. apart, no closer than 8 hrs. apart....

But, I also read that Cipro is the preferred med for Paratyphoid in Pigeons, although Clavamox is also effective as a second choice. I would think there should be some improvement within 5-7 days of starting your med. If not, perhaps switch to Bayrtil/Cipro/Enroflaxin (here in the 'states one needs a prescription for that med).

Is there any sign of any puncture at the feet anywhere ?

Chandra, would you (or anyone you know who has a pet) happen to have any Medacam (Meloxicam) ? I am thinking perhaps an anti-inflammatory might improve the situation also...

BTW...cute pic, but don't let kitty get ANY saliva on your Pigeon pal; particularly near mouth, eyes, cere (nostrils)....if it happens, wipe off immediately and flush the area quickly....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could even be gout, caused by nutritional deficiency. Poor baby.
Can even be caused by inadequate kidney function.


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone who has responded 

Jay, I wish that I were able to take him to a vet, but I have no money at all until after the first of the month and even then my income is very limited (SSI only). I did leave a message for the only avian vet I could find in my area (Pasadena, CA) to inquire about treatment/cost but it has been several days and she has not returned my call.

I don't see any outward signs of injury or breaks in the skin of his feet or legs.

I haven't been able to track down any Medacam. I know that he would feel at least a little better If I could get some of the swelling down. I am new to everything, this is my first pigeon, but I have been looking everything up and (while I'm still unsure) I'm leaning towards paratyphoid. What are the wing joints of a healthy pigeon supposed to feel like? Are they hard like a human elbow or knee or are they surrounded by soft/squishy tissue? His wing joints feel a little hot to me and they feel like warm grapes only a little smaller.

I had no idea about the cat saliva. Thank you so much for letting me know. I'm definitely going to keep Pinkie away from him now. Is it possible that the problems he's having now were caused by contact with the cat? She licks my hands a lot and I was hand feeding Pie for the first week.

He has had two doses of the clavamox and he did walk from his cage over to me... about 4 feet which is farther than normal, but his appetite seems to have decreased since starting the antibiotic.

Jay 3
How do I confirm or rule out gout or kidney problems? Also, what can I do to help prevent these?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

my guess would be paratyphoid so keep up with the antibiotic.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Definitely keep up the antibiotic. And definitely wash you hands after handling Kitty, before handling Pidgie.

Renal system infections can also be helped out by Amoxycillin, so it can cover some of that. Same with any bacteria picked up from Kitty. Again, Amoxy should be good for that....BTW...I doubt this problem is related to Kitty....

Keep up the handfeeding since his/her appetite is down.

If I were a bettin' man, I'd still say Paratyphoid, and I'd say that the Amoxy will help your pal....between somewhat and significantly. It's gonna need to be a long course, at least 14 days worth of meds.

I have PM'ed you...I can send some add'l meds to you if you like (prescription ones).


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## shakilfc009 (Mar 15, 2012)

according to my experience ...this pigeon has a back problem...maybe caused by mis landing...same problem happened to my parrot...he had lost control of his feet....he could hardly walk....it took him 1 month to recover...ur pigeon remind me of him...becoz he flew away........


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

shakilfc009 said:


> according to my experience ...this pigeon has a back problem...maybe caused by mis landing...same problem happened to my parrot...he had lost control of his feet....he could hardly walk....it took him 1 month to recover...ur pigeon remind me of him...becoz he flew away........



He clearly has foot problems. It probably is paratyphoid, but I don't think it has anything to do with his back.


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## shakilfc009 (Mar 15, 2012)

maybe.... may not be......im telling this becoz my vet told me the same thing about my parrot...maybe ur case is different...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

shakilfc009 said:


> maybe.... may not be......im telling this becoz my vet told me the same thing about my parrot...maybe ur case is different...



Did your bird have swollen feet?


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## shakilfc009 (Mar 15, 2012)

i cant remember....but he could not move his toes....it looked as if his feet were paralised


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Spirit Wings/Jaye: Yeah, I'm definitely going to keep giving them to him. He has had three doses so far, and seems to be moving around a little more, but so far the swelling has not decreased.

Jaye: Thank you So much for your offer. I PM'ed you back with info 

I really appreciate your concern/suggestions shakilfc009, but I think Jay3 is right... it doesn't seem to be his back. It isn't tender, warm, swollen or anything and he seems to be using his back bones, muscles and feathers without problems. He can move his feet, he just doesn't like to... I'm guessing because it's quite painful.

I just want to say how amazing this forum and it's members are  you have all been so helpful! I'm very impressed with your knowledge and willingness to help. 
Thank You


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## shakilfc009 (Mar 15, 2012)

Chandra said:


> Spirit Wings/Jaye: Yeah, I'm definitely going to keep giving them to him. He has had three doses so far, and seems to be moving around a little more, but so far the swelling has not decreased.
> 
> Jaye: Thank you So much for your offer. I PM'ed you back with info
> 
> ...


the thing is...as a pigeon fancier it is everyones duty to help each other....i personally like to hepl..and be helped...


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I was just reading something about swollen feet in a vet book on pigeons.
From what I read it sounds like salmonella infection. the best thing, of course, if you could take your bird to a avian vet for evaluation if not, baytril is the antibotic of choice.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I am thinking if the amoxy doesn't seem effective, we may have to move to Baytril/Cipro.

The metacam is on its way and that will certainly help the pain...I think I am gonna send you some Cipro also....

Pirab, yes, indeed..Paratyphoid and Salmonella are related illnesses...


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

shakilfc009 said:


> according to my experience ...this pigeon has a back problem...maybe caused by mis landing...same problem happened to my parrot...he had lost control of his feet....he could hardly walk....it took him 1 month to recover...ur pigeon remind me of him...becoz he flew away........


That is a pretty good guess, too, actually...I mean, if a Pigeon screws up his back or vertebrae it could cause neurological damage which would cause them to walk on their 'hocks', that is true.

I just think, as jay3 says, the foot swelling is more indicative of something else...I suppose in these instances one should assume the more common malady first, which would be Paratyphoid/Salmonellosis...


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

*Updated pics*

Update on Pie: He has now had 5 doses of antibiotics, and I don't know what's going on, but there are now whitish, swollen boil type things on his feet.

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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Pirab, I wish that I could take him to a vet, but unfortunately I'm not able to right now.

Jaye, thank you so much for your help... I can't tell whether the antibiotic is working, he seems to be moving around more, but these new spots are showing up on his feet


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Keep up the Amoxy through Friday night. Stop after the Friday eve dosage.

I am gonna send you Cipro, but it won't make it there until Saturday afternoon, probably. You can start the Cipro Saturday night...that will have been 24 hours between antibiotics and that should be OK....

I will get that out to you tom'w AM, and I'll make the Express deadline so it reaches you by Saturday as opposed to Monday.

You can give the Metacam and Cipro concurrently...I usually space the doses of the two out by about 30-45 minutes.

Is he still eating OK ?


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Thank You 

What do the white spots look like to you?

The first day on meds he didn't eat so well, but he's definitely eating better today. I gave him a new bowl of seeds and he started squeaking and picked all of the sunflower seeds out right away. He's also getting a lot feistier... he attacked my finger for the first time today! I miss my sweet, cuddly baby!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Feistiness is great news...Pigeon Attitude means they are feeling better !

I am gonna tell you...the first pic of the lump at the leg/foot joint looked familiar enough, we see that now and again... and seemed to match up quite a bit w/ Paratyphoid. I have never heard of 'migrating' lumps, however. That is odd....

Nothing to panic about, but just something I have never seen before.

So, stop the Amoxy now and start the Cipro tom'w PM...leave a +/- 24-hr. gap between the two antibiotics. I'd imagine the Metacam is making him/her much more comfy....and let's see what Cipro does....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Those white spots are looking more and more like gout to me. Something to consider.









http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/melbournebirdvet/cases.html
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httpwww3.sympatico.cadavehansengout.html


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Actually, they aren't migrating, now that I look at the initial pics vs. the new ones. They are in the same place, just slightly larger.

From what I read, oftentimes gout in birds is accompanied by heavy water drinking intake and loss of appetite. It can also be exacerbated by a high-protein diet. Does your pal show any signs of any of that ?

Chandra, lemme know that the Cipro got there and you have begun it. 

Also, what is he eating ? Am thinking maybe you should tweak his diet and start feeding some formulated parrot pellets if he has been eating mostly seed. This would reduce the protein and fat intake.
He probably won't eat 'em himself so you will need to handfeed some pellets...use medium sized ones (conure/small parrot) and pop around 15-20/day divided into 2 feedings into him, and cut the seed diet in half.....any pet store usually has Parrot Pellets...Zupreem, LaFaebre's, Kaytee are some typical brands...either colored or natural.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's often caused by kidney damage, but you need to figure out what was the cause of the damage. Even if the bird got into some toxic substance. From different articles, it seems that it can be managed, but not cured. Here is only one article.
http://en.engormix.com/MA-poultry-i.../avian-gout-causes-treatment-t1246/165-p0.htm
_______________________________________________________________________________
Here is another

Possible causes:

Water shortage, kidney damage, nutritional deficiency

Symptoms of the disease:
Nodular painful swelling of the joints. Liver and peritoneum, pericardium, air sacs appear as if dusted with lime (uric acid crystals). Kidneys swollen, interspersed with uric acid deposits.

Recognition of the disease:
Microscopic examination of the deposits (crystals).

Treatment:
multivitamin+ with Methenamin to accelerate the discharge of metabolic breakdown products), over a period of 3 x 5 days, 1 sachet per 4 litres of water. Give low-protein feed. Kill severely affected animals.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/information-gout.php

_____________________________________________________________________________

Prevention:
Ensure adequate vitamin intake and exercise. Feed birds as required by performance.


Articular gout – this chronic form of the disease which occurs when uric acid and urates are deposited in the ligaments and tendons, but more commonly in the legs or wing joints. The joints become swollen, red, tender swell, and warm to touch.



A bird with articular gout prefers to sit on a flat surface instead of perching because of the pains. If forced to walk, the bird becomes noisy due to discomfort. It may also be depressed and dehydrated, with greenish diarrhea. In addition, the bird will look dull, its feathers ruffled and the vent moist.



Male birds are susceptible to articular gout, and the common age for this affliction is four months and above.


Causes



Gout is mainly due to damaged kidneys (nephropathy). When they stop functioning normally, it results in an accumulation of uric acid and urates in the muscles and joints. Kidney damage leading to gout can be due to the following reasons:



High calcium and vitamin D3, with low phosphorus amounts in food
High amount of sodium bicarbonate in food
High amount of salt (more than 0.3 percent) in food
High amount of protein (more than 30 percent) in food
Not enough water in the diet (dehydration)
Consumption of water with a high amount of minerals (i.e., calcium and copper sulfate)
Viral infection (i.e., avian nephritis)
Antibiotics like gentamycin, nitrofurosones, and sulfonamides
Poisoning by disinfectants (i.e., cresol and phenol)

Treatment

Treatment depends greatly on underlying cause of gout. However, water should be provided to for your bird while being is treated to and from the veterinarian; this will prevents dehydration. Decreasing uic acivital in cases of gout, and the veterinarian will usually prescribe urine acidifiers for this.



Reducing proteins, calcium, vitamin D3, and salt, incombination with an increase of phosphorus and soft water intake, are all important dietary changes to treat gout. A feed analysis is also necessary, ensures the bird receives an appropriate intake of minerals, proteins and vitamins. Multivitamins, including vitamin K, are sometimes used to help the liver and kidneys function normally, and can help control gout.

http://www.petmd.com/bird/conditions/musculoskeletal/c_bd_Gout#.T23Wa9WnnvY


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Update: He has had 3 doses of the cipro and 5 of the medacam (you're awesome Jaye  ). He seems to be feeling MUCH better. He has been walking around more...even climbed up the back of the couch and on to the side table (and then pooped... seriously considering those diapers) he walked up my arm to my shoulder, using his feet to grip- which he hadn't been able to do previously (and then pooped again) His wing joints no longer feel hot and the swelling seems totally gone in one and reduced in the other. The all-over swelling in his feet is decreasing and they aren't as hot anymore, but the white bumps are getting larger and look pus/fluid filled. He has been pecking at them today.

Re: gout... the spots in the pics do look similar, and your description of articular gout sounds a lot like what is going on with his feet. "The joints become swollen, red, tender swell, and warm to touch." (sorry, I don't know how to change the color of the writing/do the quote thing yet)

"A bird with articular gout prefers to sit on a flat surface instead of perching because of the pains. If forced to walk, the bird becomes noisy due to discomfort. It may also be depressed and dehydrated, with greenish diarrhea. In addition, the bird will look dull, its feathers ruffled and the vent moist.
Male birds are susceptible to articular gout, and the common age for this affliction is four months and above"

He does prefer a flat surface, and has only recently tried perching on my shoulder/finger/arm. He doesn't squeak when he walks, but makes a lot of noise with his feet. He doesn't seem depressed, but this is my first pigeon so I really don't know what normal or happy looks like. I don't know about dehydration, how can you tell? He had greenish diarrhea the first day he ate on his own (I thought it was because he ate so many peas) he hasn't had it since then. His feathers aren't ruffled, his vent does have some poop around it constantly (I clean it off several times a day). Though I call 'him' a 'he'... I really have no Idea, so I guess the joke will be on me when 'he' lays an egg! I'm pretty sure that he is between 1 1/2 and 2 months old.

I don't know about toxins, I have used a diluted lysol solution on his cage once, and baby shampoo during baths twice. He had a few fly-things on him when I found him, but I've picked all of them off... one of them managed to stay hidden for several days! I found him on the sidewalk against the side of a building, where he was sitting was full of trash, dirt, leaves, etc. he hasn't been drinking large amounts of water and has maintained a good appetite. I've been feeding him wild bird seed for about two weeks (peas and corn prior to that). ingredients listed are milo, white proso millet, and sunflower seeds. The bag says: crude protein (min) not less than 10.0%, crude fat (min) not less than 4.0%, crude fiber (max) not more than 18%. I have been supplementing with a small bowl of defrosted corn and peas, and partially cooked lentils and split peas. I have also been putting him out on the balcony (in a cage) for several hours each day during good weather to help him to get his vitamin d.

I can get him parrot pellets, but not until next week (no money... maybe a dollar in change but that's it...lol) What is the best way to change his diet with what I have here until then? Also, when do I introduce grit... petco is the only pet store near me, do they have everything that I'll need there?


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

One of his feet as of about 20 min ago. I had to delete several other pictures to upload this one.

View attachment 23337


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hands are tied somewhat because really, the proper next steps to take are a vet visit for some tests, possibly lancing the boil, possibly more targeted meds... and a change to a different diet...both of which require an expenditure.

I have sent a message to Terry Whatley, who runs a rescue in the LA area. However, her presence here has been sporadic as of late, so I am assuming something is up or she is just quite busy. I would suggest you do the same:
http://www.villagepondrescue.com/about.htm or http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=136

I think we try to treat on 2 separate tracks, then: one for Paratyphoid, one for gout. Again, the problem with the latter is that we'd really need some $ and a vet here.....

1) As she/he is now on antibiotic (BTW Cipro is neither a nitrofurosone nor sulfonamide, so shouldn't exacerbate gout if this is what we are seeing). Keep on the antibiotic...if Paratyphoid, then it's the right med; if a bacterial infection effecting the renal system it's also a good med. 
Do this, also: _stop_ the metacam for to 1-1/2 days. See if there's any change in his/her behavior or comfort level. Report back to us on that. If there is no change in comfort level, stay off the metacam.

2) I doubt that your cleaning products are causing toxicity, because you found your pal in this condition already. But I would suggest using milder cleaning agents from now on...even just handsoap and wateror a mild dish detergent as opposed to Lysol, etc.

3) Also, as a seed diet is VERY high in protein, I suggest switching off of this. I dunno, I mean some bird supply stores sell pellets in bulk...so you could conceivably find one and just buy like 1/3lb. of pellets ???

4) Water...if you have not noticed her drinking much, I think you need to get water into her...a lot of it. Try to get her to drink by dipping the beak in a shallow dish of water. If she still will not...then somehow we need to hydrate her/him a lot more. 

Jay3...any thoughts on how to pump more water through a Pigeon ????


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would just put it in his crop, or give sub-Q in the web of the leg but those aren't options here. If you have held his beak into the water many times, I don't understand why he isn't drinking yet. Have you tried dribbling it on the side of the beak? Giving formula would help him get more water. Even dry rice cereal for babies would be mixed with water. But then you still have to get it into the bird. Is there not a rehabber in the area who could just show you how to crop feed?


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## Arijit (Aug 31, 2011)

very sort tretment 3 days,homeopathy fast mornnig, no ather medicines.100% salf this problem.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Just a thought, but ill birds are a bit like young ones at times.
Was the water you were offering him cold or warm (tepid)
Normally this wouldnt bother any bird except a young one, as weaned youngsters & adults will drink either, however a sick bird may easilly refuse water if it feels it is too cold.
Try some tepid water with a pinch of sugar & a pinch of salt and see if that makes a difference.
He may still be wary if you have already dipped his beak in water that is cold, so could still take several attempts to convince him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> Just a thought, but ill birds are a bit like young ones at times.
> Was the water you were offering him cold or warm (tepid)
> Normally this wouldnt bother any bird except a young one, as weaned youngsters & adults will drink either, however a sick bird may easilly refuse water if it feels it is too cold.
> Try some tepid water with a pinch of sugar & a pinch of salt and see if that makes a difference.
> He may still be wary if you have already dipped his beak in water that is cold, so could still take several attempts to convince him.




I think she has tried it that way. Think I read that. Not sure.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Arijit said:


> very sort tretment 3 days,homeopathy fast mornnig, no other medicines. 100% solve this problem.


Arijit...thank you for adding your comments....can you be more specific ?

What are you recommending ?


Jay3 said:


> Giving formula would help him get more water. Even dry rice cereal for babies would be mixed with water. But then you still have to get it into the bird. Is there not a rehabber in the area who could just show you how to crop feed?


I was sorta hoping Terry was still around...although folks say they haven't heard much from her recently....

Baby food/formula is a good idea. Chandra, as you do have a syringe/dropper...you could try that. Either dry rice cereal or even just a small jar of baby food...those cost about a buck. Maybe get a flavor with rice or peas or lentil or potato...no meat.

Dilute it down to a runny pudding consistency, heat until lukewarm, and administer with the dropper. Hold mouth open, drop it onto the middle of the tongue/mouth area, close the beak and she/he should swallow. Try to get at least 1 or 2cc's of it in there in the first sitting. Then more with the next (like 2-3, 3-4, etc...)

Regardless of what this may be...hydration is something which will be very beneficial....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye said:


> Arijit...thank you for adding your comments....can you be more specific ?
> 
> What are you recommending ?
> 
> ...




I would stay with the rice cereal or grains anyway, as peas are very high in protein. Just in case it could be gout. I would try to keep the protein down a bit if possible, and stay away from baby food with peas.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Good point...yes, we wanna go easy on protein. I would agree, a rice-based babyfood or cereal, or potato based... would be preferable to peas/lentils.


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi everyone, thanks again for all of the advice/replies. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear, I didn't mean that he wasn't drinking... I just meant that I don't notice him drinking excessive amounts of water because that was listed as a symptom of gout. He does drink, and does prefer warm water. On days that I haven't seen him drink much, I give him extra with a dropper just to be sure that he is getting enough. I gave him an extra 5ml when I got home a few minutes ago just in case. How much should he be drinking? How do I know if he is getting enough? What is crop feeding? Is that the same thing as filling up his crop by hand feeding? (sorry about all the questions) he is great about eating and drinking whatever I need to give him...meds, food, water...so no problem there. He has even opened his mouth on his own several times!

When I first found him, I googled pigeon rescues and e-mailed Terry. She is super nice... and actually, she's the one who directed me to this forum after first finding the baby. She was very helpful and said that she would be happy to take him...but by then I had already fallen in love  I would give him up though, if it meant giving him care that I couldn't provide. At the time, I didn't know about his foot/wing problems... so I didn't mention them to her... I can e-mail her again.

RE: baby food/cereal, is the baby cereal to provide extra hydration, or a substitute for his regular feedings? I took away his seed today and fed him peas and corn this morning (I will stop the peas now) I wanted to be sure that he ate, so I hand fed him 48 (24 of each) Does he need the cereal? (If so, that's not a problem...I already have some here) or can I give him cooked pieces of potato and whole cooked rice instead?...I'm just wondering because he really seems to prefer chunky pieces of food to pure`e (how do you get that thing over the e when typing?) I'd like to give him something to peck at himself in between hand feedings too, what's a good choice for that?

Good news  he is still active and moving around even without the medcam (metacam?) He did his first hop/fly this morning from my hand to my chest and then clung to my shirt with his feet. When I got home, he did another one from my hand to his cage and clung to the bars of the cage door. He has been stretching his wings last night/today... opens them, flaps a little, and then points them up in the air behind his back... hadn't seen him do this until last night. He has been grooming a lot more today too, and even picked up a piece of string and kinda played with it. His feet felt a little warmer today without the medacam and the spots/boils aren't showing any outward signs of improvement...but he seems to be feeling better.


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Ok...so I cooked up this mixture of water, rice cereal, mashed potato flakes, and corn that I put through the blender. The consistency is thinner than baby food, but thicker than tomato juice. Getting ready to feed... will let you know how it goes


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

That went well, he ate 8 3/4 ml of the mixture


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Cool. 

Definitely if you can get about 20ml/day fed into him for the next couple of days, that should up the hydration significantly. So, keep on the Cipro, stop the Metacam, and let's see what transpires....

I think if in the next few days things do not stabilize...i.e. the boils keep getting bigger or more prevalent....perhaps having Terry step in would be a serious consideration.

With that said...wing stretching is a really good sign...it usually means happiness and comfort...sometimes it even means "glad to see you" !!! And certainly the fact that he/she continues to use the feet more is also a good sign....

I don't think the cereal mush can substitute completely for the solids you have been feeding. I am trying to think of lower-protein solids you can substitute for what you have been feeding. And something, as you say, which is interesting enough to peck at. This is where Parrot Pellets are a great go-to choice.

Maybe someone else can chime in with a good, lower-protein handfeeding morsel other than peas/corn ??? Fruits and grains are considered low protein, relatively speaking...but I dunno if something like Millet or Quinoa or Buckwheat or Oats are something which would be a good choice....(?) They would certainly be peckable....


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

What do you guys think about warm baths/soaks... and maybe compresses to help the boils drain? I've heard doctors recommend them for humans to help abscesses drain. Thinking of trying them tomorrow.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I dunno...might be worth trying maybe on one foot. It might do nothing because Paratyphoid soft tissue inflammation wouldn't be reduced by soaks, nor would uric acid deposits if gout. But...I cannot find anything that says it'd harm. I do wonder what is IN there, actually...and whether draining is possible. But that is a vet procedure, not a layman's....

Here's an informative page on avian gout (beware, some pics in the middle of the page are gnarly). But some really good dietary/supplement advice on how to alleviate/treat (IF this is what it is...the jury is still out, IMHO)...aloe detox, black cherries, allopirinol. Interesting articles.

http://www.avianweb.com/gout.html

You are thinking these things thru...which is good. Keep the faith, I think we can help your buddy more...he already seems to be moving in a positive direction, for sure.


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Very good information, (and yes, I was a bit shocked by the pics... even with your warning... guess I was just expecting some nasty foot pics or something) I don't have many of the foods listed on hand, but will be able to buy them next week. I know that there are some aloe plants down the street... but not sure if there are different types of aloe and don't want to give him anything unsafe.

I do have fresh spinach and canned sweet potatoes (wondering if the canned may be too high is sodium and sugar though) to help with the possible vitamin A deficiency, so I added those to his diet today. It's pretty hard to hand feed fresh spinach; the pieces kept sticking to his mouth, so I left them in his bowl to peck at, but he didn't show much interest. Going to try putting them through the blender with his other mush/mixture in the morning.

I want to make sure that he is getting enough to eat now that I have removed the seed. Please let me know what you think. This is a list of everything that I hand fed him today:

21ml of the water/rice cereal/potato/corn mixture divided into three feedings.
26 pieces of defrosted corn in the morning
15 small cubes (a little larger than peas) of cooked potato in the afternoon
30 small cubes of sweet potato in the evening 
8ml of water, plus whatever he drank on his own throughout the day

other things that I have and am wondering about trying are oatmeal, rice, brown rice, and grits. Any thoughts on those?

I also have a vitamin supplement for cats/dogs... would this be good for him? here is a link to the ingredients: http://www.petworldshop.com/nutrical/dog-supplement-extra-energy-dog-health.php

he's still on the cipro, and his activity level continues to increase. He's been walking around pecking at the carpet, and came out of his cage on his own for the first time today! He even played a little hide and seek with me...lol, finally found him behind a laundry basket. his feet aren't warm/hot anymore. The boils are still there and aren't looking any smaller... but they haven't grown either. The swelling around them has decreased though. I soaked his feet (and the rest of him) in the sink for a while today... it didn't do any good as far as the boils go, but he seemed to enjoy it and I needed to get the poop off of him anyway (he even managed to get some on his head!) I was careful not to let any water get into his nose while washing it off.


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

Bath Time

View attachment 23370


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

sorry... I cut and pasted the wrong link, here's the right one

http://www.1800petmeds.com/Nutri+Cal-prod1340.html


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yeah, I have used a similar additive called Stat or Nutri-stat. I don't think, given your feeding regimen...you need to actually give any further supplements.

Also...sweet potato fresh cooked (no can) is the way to go; or perhaps go with baby food jars of it...as they tend to not have additives.

The amount of food is MORE than ample. It's a great diet, but as you said, the poor fella probably would like to peck at something, so maybe some of those grains I mentioned, bought in bulk, can serve there.

Looks good, sounds good...activity level is up and he/she seems happier.

I understand how you would wanna make sure the aloe treatment is the correct one..I dunno,maybe we can both surf around and find more info on that...if you cannot find/afford the recommended stuff ("Lily of the Desert Aloe Detoxifying Formula").

If there is no adverse effect from ceasing Matacam, don't restart it. Lastly...make sure he is hecka warm after bath time. An ill Pidgie can get chilled very quickly....you can actually blow dry about 1/2 of the way and then let him air dry; or keep him in a very snug and warm room, 80 degrees-plus. No drafts.

Also, if he liked being wet..get a clean spray bottle and fill it with hot tap water and you can 'mist' him from time to time (by the time the hot water hits the air, it is already cooled to temperate). They love spray misting.

Good update !


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## Arijit (Aug 31, 2011)

Jaye said:


> Arijit...thank you for adding your comments....can you be more specific ?
> 
> What are you recommending ?
> 
> ...


medicine name( CUPRAM SULF-200)3DAYS morning and no ather medicine.baby food formula not REG. this problem


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

quick update: bought fresh sweet potato today (with my dollar, lol... really wanted a Pepsi and cigarette...but the baby comes first) He LOVES it! He's still eating and drinking well. He's had 38 pieces of corn, 25 sweet potato cubes, 5 cubes of regular potato, and 14 ml of the rice cereal mixture. Going to do one more feeding of at least 7ml and a few solids before bed. He spent almost the whole day out of the cage walking around... he even RAN from me twice! I've never seen him run before, it was really funny to watch. He really seems to be doing and feeling much better, but I'm wondering why I'm still not seeing any improvement in the boils. They aren't getting any worse though.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well...the fact that they aren't getting worse is in and of itself 'improvement', I'd say.

This is good news. How about flapping wings ? Any attempts at flying ???


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## Chandra (Mar 4, 2012)

He is still stretching his wings a lot... and doing this new thing that's kinda hard to explain... he stretches his tail feathers to the side and then arches/stretches his back and puts his wins out. He isn't trying to fly at all from a sitting or walking position, but he jumps off of my hand and flaps his wings as he jumps. He is getting really funny and stubborn!!! he keeps trying to climb up this piece of cardboard that is too slippery for him... he gets a little way, then slides back down, then tries again... he must have done it more than 30 times! So funny to watch. I would pick him up and put him at the top where he was trying to go and he would just jump off and do it again. I have to pigeon proof my apartment now that he is getting active... he tries to peck at everything on the floor. He found a packing peanut that came from the medacam box, I got it away from him before he could eat it


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Arjit...you are speaking of copper sulfate. This is sometimes fed to food chickens to make them grow fast. But it is considered toxic to other animals except birds.

It isn't a 'medication' nor the like which is normally used here, or available thru Pigeon-supply or vet supply places singularly. It DOES appear as an ingredient in some dietary supplement formulas and formulated, pellet foods.. What is it supposed to do, exactly ?

Chandra, that's pretty darn funny. It's good that he is flapping, and it's also something that he would want to play with his cardboard 'slide' when a week ago, he couldn't even walk, eh ?

Also, Chandra, just found this: some relative protien info on various seeds and grains and veggies. 
http://purgrain.com/Ingredients-2010.html
Looks like stuff like millet, buckwheat, wheat and wheatbnerries, popcorn, and milo are relatively low-protein and highly peckable !


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