# found 2 baby pigeons...



## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

about 3 days ago i found 2 baby pigeons (i think they are 10- days old, but thats just a guess) and i was wondering how i should take care of them, food wise, every how long should i feed them, and how much. 

iv taken care of an older baby pigeon, witch was about the age where you could start to give it just seeds, with him i just made this formula for the first week i had him, i put in it corn grits (flour) and whole wheat flour, i added water and heated it up so it made this mushy stuff, and hand fed him with a syringe.

i was doing the same thing with these baby pigeons (gave them every 2-3 hours 5-10 mil's of the food) but i was wondering if i should add more stuff to there food or do something else, iv read in some places that you can add milk to give them calcium, but i had a quite bad experience with milk and my other pigeon, he got at my cereal bowl and drank some of the milk so the rest of the day he had diarrhea. and that they should get vitamins but what should i give them so they get there vitamins?

iv bin looking in the internet for info about this topic but cant fined any information, so any real info would help.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for rescuing these babies.

PLEASE READ our rersources section in the daily forum, you will find alot of threads about feeding baby pigeons.

You can buy the Kaytee baby bird formula and follow instructions on that.They should be fed about every three hours until their crops are round and squishy full, not too full. You don't have to feed thru the night.

Milk is a NO-NO, but you can give them a tiny bit of organic plain yogurt and mix with formula fr some added gut bacteria, they will thrive with it. 

As far as vitamins go, I think the Kaytee has enough until you get them on their seed diet. You can also feed them tiny bits of a good organic dog food, soaked,drained and cut up in tiny bits when they get a little older.


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

i dont think i can buy that formula because i live in israel and all i see in pet shops is cat\dog food and fish food, in case i cant buy the formula how should i make the food.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To guess at the age:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

At that age, you might just give them puppy chow for a few days. That comes in little pellets that you can break up, dip in water and then feed to them. You might not even have to break them up, for that matter. However, if you feed them somewhat dry, you're going to have to give supplemental water to the tune of 5 to 8% of their weight per day. If the bird weighs 100 grams, then that would be 5 to 8 milliliters of water per day. Do you have a way to weigh them?

Pidgey


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

i weighed them and they are about 9.5 grams after they where fed.
iv got a pic of one of them. (its taking to long to upload the rest) 
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0895lq5.jpg

i was wondering what they where doing? if they are fighting or just pecking each other to get food, and should i let them continue? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IisuYilQQdI


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

They're hungry. They won't hurt each other.
Very cute little bugs.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'd say from the picture that they're more in the neighborhood of 95 grams but certainly not 9.5 grams--they typically weigh more than that when they hatch. If you have either a styrofoam or paper cup, you can weigh a quantity of water to check the scale and calibration of your scale. 100 milliliters of water will weigh 100 grams. Try that.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They kinda' look like they're begging for food from each other in an excited way.

Pidgey


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

sorry, i got mixed up, they are 95 grams.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'd keep feeding them as you are and maybe supplement that with just a tiny bit of puppy chow per day. Can you get that stuff in little sample bags? I ask because I finished raising a sparrow a couple of years ago with puppy chow and they had these small bags at the store that were 250 grams at the most.

Pidgey


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

i was wondering if my housing is ok. i have them in a box to keep them safe because i have 3 cats and 2 of them tryed but failed to "play" with my last pigeon (hes not dead i just released him\her) do you guys think itll keep them warm enough?
http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0900tg0.jpg


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That looks more than warm enough for them. What's the average temperature there at this time of year (Celsius, Fahrenheit, doesn't matter)?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I see it's 15 deg C/59 deg F in Tel Aviv right now. Those chicks at that age won't need any supplemental heat unless they were sick, which they don't look to be.

Pidgey


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

so you think they dont need the light? i dont think i could not have it while im freezing my but off (im not used to cold)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It depends on what your definition of cold is. I've got a couple about that size in the loft right now here that the parents aren't sitting on anymore who are doing just fine and it's below freezing out there (-3 C; 25 F).

How cold is it there?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

shelory said:


> i was wondering if my housing is ok. i have them in a box to keep them safe because i have 3 cats and 2 of them tryed but failed to "play" with my last pigeon (hes not dead i just released him\her) do you guys think itll keep them warm enough?
> http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0900tg0.jpg




Hi shelory, 



What fun...!


If you can keep the Cats away from them, and, as these two grow and will need to explore and test their wings and so on, you are going to have to keep the Cats away from them..!


But, for now, having the Box as you do, a better arrange would be to have a less tall Box...and, to have a Towell which is layed flat on the table top, so it goes into the inside bottom of the Box...

On this, set a Pie Pan or Cake Pan, or low sides cut-off-bottom of a smaller cardboard Box, so it is a shallow Tray...in which you have some soft rumpled Cloth, and this part then, in their terms, will be their 'Nest'.

Over the main Box which is on it's side, open on one side as you have it...over the Box then, drape a light cloth or shirt to somewhat enclose the whole...leaving a gap at the bottom for them to come and go from.


Here is a link to some images of a method (just the first three images for this ) 

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/512124277uXlSSR


As you can see, a common **** makes for a dandy entrance/exit, at the collar..!


This way, they have a place to poop which they will understand, since for them, they need to recognise what is 'Nest' and what is not 'Nest', for them to poop off of, or outside of, the Nest itself.


Too, at the age they are now, they will spend their time in the Nest, and, come tumbling out of their 'House' that has the Nest in it, and onto the towell 'Lawn', when you call them for chow times...and, once fed, they will go back in to it by themselves.

They do not need to be 'in' a Box, they will recognise this arrangement as their Nest and the Nest's front yard...and they will not leave it or fall off.


Here are two more links showing feeding methods, which work very well for the Babys...

Their Natural History is to 'gobble' liquid Food or a slurry of Seeds and Water, from the throat of their parent, so, the hollow side of a Nipple works very well...one gently squeezes it for it to be oval shaped, allowing their Beak to open more, and, importantly, for them to feel it against the sides of their mouth and Beak -


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/547324376ZDjOCU



And...


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/



More info on formula-making in it's own post if you like...

If you have a small electric Coffee Grinder, it will come in handy...I only had a large Blender whan I made the images, but soon after got a little Coffee Grinder which works splendidly.


As these two grow, they will soon need to be eating a great deal more than they have been...so, having an easy and safe method is a definite plus.

And, the 'Nipple' also makes for a very graceful transition to eating Seeds proper from a similar shape, once they are ready for that.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi shelory,



If you feel the Babys require more or more definite Warmth, a simple electric Heating Pad, set under the Towell, under the 'Nest' tray, in the bottom of the Box, works very well...and one sets it to whatever setting as seems to allow the Nest itself to be suitably warm...and the front-box drape also helps keep the warmth in somewhat...

Probably your Babys are endothermic already, and in modest cool will manage fine so long as they are sheltered and out of drafts, which this method of course ensures...

At this age, probably five or six meals-a-day is fine, with each one making for a decently filled but not over-filled Crop...they love to eat, and you have to be the judge of when they have had enough for any given meal time.

Offer body temperature Water in-between meals...which they will happily drink from the Nipple when their Beaks are guided into it.


For feeding, also, I forgot to say...if you softly hold their Beak in your finger-tips, they will assertively 'Nuzle' asking to be fed...and, so you merely guide their Nuzzleing Beak into the Nipple Hollow, tilting it toward them somewhat, holding it at about their mid chest hight...and they will eat...and likely be quite assertive in their enthusiasm too...

Formula also must be at about body temperature, and must be warmed in a Tea Cup or the likes, in a Pan of Hot Water, and stirred thoroughly as one does so, to ensure even warmth and good even consistancy...do not use a microwave to warm it...

Formula should be about the consistancy of melted Ice Cream on a warm day...


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

thanks you guys\gails...
in there box its 24C and in my room (the one they are in) its 16...
about the cats, if they are anything like my first pigeon they would attack the cats with flapping wings and have them run away, b4 the cat ever got into the room. (he\she hated cats ) 
ill try the new box thingy it looks better. and the nipple thing looks cool, but i dont get how i should know when there crop is full...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi shelory, 


The health and developement of these Babys requires them to be free to wander within the reasonable confines of what to them, is a "Nest' and it's 'ledge' area, which is not at all the same as being kept 'in' an upright Box.

Soon, they will need to explore, test their Wings in many daily flapping exercises, and be climbing and cavorting and so on initially in their 'Nest area and 'Ledge' which they recognise, and, then, in the places around the Nest area and ledge which they can hop to or climb to, and, they will be best if they can come and go from what they will recognise as their 'Nest'...which they will return to in their play and explores, so long as you allow them to have it, and, to have consistant habits in feeding and watering them "there".


Cats are not going to be compatable with this, or with the young Bird's further growing up phases...and if the young Birds are led to be complaisant and accepting about Cats, it will cause their death once some Cat regards them as food to prey on, or a plaything to maul, either there, or in the out of doors.

If you can elect a dedicated room where Cats are not allowed, it would make all this much better for these two little Birds being able to grow up safely...since, for one thing, you can not keep them without cruelty, in an upright Box for very long, in order to protect them.


Are you intending to raise these Birds to remain in your house with your Cats for the rest of their lives?

Or, do you wish to raise them so they may be released and have their Lives in the out of doors, amid their wild and feral fellows?

You might want to give this some thought.


Anyway...

Best wishes,



Phil
l v


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

i allready had my room locked so cats couldent get at them, i made the box thingy with a porch, they tried it out and they seam to like it. they can wander now in my room if they like. 
i dont think ill keep them as i have 3 cats that are trying to get at them (clawing and meawing at my door), and 2 dogs that are licking there lips. ill just do what i did with the last pigeon i had and release them. do you guys know of any good ways to release them once they are grown?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for your trying to take such good care of the little pair.

They will do okay in subdued light-as they don't get any when they are in the nest, but will need access to sunlight when they are grown.

Once they have eaten, their crop will look full, but not like a blown up balloon, more like a bean bag. It should be completely empty before the next meal.

You can release them when both can fly well, in an area where there are pigeons that have access to good food and water, where people are friendly towards them. If you know of any one else who is raising/rehabing young pigeons it is best to raise them together and release them in a group.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

15C is no problem--that's 59 deg. F. to many of us.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

shelory said:


> i allready had my room locked so cats couldent get at them, i made the box thingy with a porch, they tried it out and they seam to like it. they can wander now in my room if they like.
> i dont think ill keep them as i have 3 cats that are trying to get at them (clawing and meawing at my door), and 2 dogs that are licking there lips. ill just do what i did with the last pigeon i had and release them. do you guys know of any good ways to release them once they are grown?


Hi shelory, 


Glad to hear...

If their little 'House' with bthe Nest in it, and it's porch or 'lawn'...if this is on a Table top, the youngsters will stay put with it for another three weeks or more, and not hop off of it or anything.


Once you and they are used to the feeding proceedures, there are some other steps for introducing them to Seeds...and once they are pecking Seeds, which we can have them doing in another week or so, I will let you know how you can prepare them for their later release so they will be ready for the transition.


Best wishes!


If I somehow lose your thread here for any period of time, please message me..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

shelory said:


> ... i dont get how i should know when there crop is full...




Hi shelory, 


The full size Rubber people-baby Nipple, tends to be about the same volume all over the world...


For your little ones, they can each put away two, three, maybe four Nipple's full to a meal...and with meals about every four hours or so...

But this is a matter of judgement somehow, and there is no way to describe how 'full' their Crops should be, without being over-full or too under-full...

And 'full' is not really that important anyway, compared to being fed enough over the course of a day, even if in many small meals whose cumulative volume is right...


How fast the Baby processes their food, and so on...is the actual determiner of how much they may pr should be fed.


One way is simply to feed them often enough for their Crops to never empty...but not to necessarily fill them up too conspicuiously 'full' either.


Some people want to see the Crop empty before feeding the next meal...and no one wants to see a Crop which is not emptying...


Most of this is about worrys of the food spoiling in the Crop, and hence not moving through becausethe effect of the spoilage also effects their digestive systemn so everything slows down or stops.

Wholesome foods, properly prepared and kept, and Babys who are not 'chilled', eliminates these problems. Chilled Babys' digestive systems can slow down so much the food on theor Crops begins to ferment or spoil...so, making sure the little ones are definitely 'warm' is a good idea, and or checking their undersides against the underside of your wrist, is, also...



Formula can spoil quite fast, especially at room temperatures, so my own method is to make fresh every night, freeze it overnight, us it through the next day with it being covered and refrigerated between meals...re-warmed each meal...and discarded at the end of the day, when I make a fresh batch.


You could try letting them each have three Nipples worth ( 7/8ths full but not full to the brim) every four hours...and see how that goes...that should be fairly close I think...


Now...what are you going to make the formula out of?


Are there any Health Food Stores and or 'Pet' Supply Stores near you..?


Phil
l v


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

the ingredients i put in are:
corn grits (flour) and whole wheat flour, these are the main things i put in as i have plenty of it at home. im thinking of putting nuts (peanuts, and some other nuts i have at home) soy beans and corn flakes. do you think im feeding them the right stuff or should i change something?

ill go to a store tomorrow and get nipples for them, there are health food stores but i cant affored to go to them (they raise the price by more then 400% of all there products just cos they add a sticker that says health food) but i can go to a reagaler store and see what i can get there from what you tell me. iv got to go to a pet shop but most of them are just dog\cat\fish pet shops so they are useless.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi shelory, 



Your best bet would be to get some good quality Bird Seeds...

Such as White Safflower, Milo, Millet, whole dried Corn, dried whole small Peas...

Either 'as' Bird-Seeds, or as whole dried Seeds sold in Packages in Markets.

Sesime Seeds should be good too...

I know they sell all of these in Middle Eastern Markets here, so likely they would be available in your neck of the woods too.


Go to the Health Food Store, or to a Chineese Market if you have any ( Lol...) and get some "Goji Berrys"...or, who knows? Maybe some of your regular Markets would have them..?

If you can not find any, get dried Elder Berrys or Mulberrys or Lingonberrys or similar, or even get more than one kind...Dried Sour or Dried Dark Cherrys are excellent also...but they must be pure and NOT contain 'sufites'...

Get some Barley Malt powder if you can...which similarly is known and available in Markets in your region...or should be. Or get dried Sprouted Barley itself ( comes in small bags for very inexpensive prices ) and you can add this to the mix you will grind.


In a little counter-top type electric Coffee Grinder, put about 1/3rd Goji Berrys ( or whatever kind you do end up getting, or a medly of various ones), and 2/3rds Seed Medly...and grind fairly to a medium fine 'meal'...grind these at the same time, together.

If you have dried sprouted Barely, add anout one part to ten of the rest of the stuff. if you have the Sprouted Barley 'powder' just add a decent Teaspoon full or so...

This 'dry' mix then is the base for the formula, and you can make up a few days worth of this at a time, and take from it what you need each day for mixing...so this is left dry, and kept covered in the refrigerator.


Wheat Flour would not be good...

Corn 'meal' from a store package, would be tolerable if nothing better were handy, but is no where near as good as when it is ground fresh.

Peanuts...I would say do not risk it in any form.


More in a little while...


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi Shelory,

Thanks for taking the baby pigeons in!

Your pet store is far from useless, because dog kibble is good food as far as pigeons are concerned. To hand feed soak some dry dog kibble in water until its soft. Place the baby on a table on in your lap (you can wrap the baby in a towel to minimize wiggling, and be careful the baby doesn't fall off of the table or your lap) and gently open the baby's beak (as pigeons don't gape) and gently insert a bite sized (for the pigeon) hunk of dog food into the baby's mouth, and the baby will take over swallowing the food. Feed until the crop is soft and full but not taunt, overfeeding can cause a impacted crop (can be fatal). Repeat after the crop empties. The use of soaked dog food will ensure that the pigeons are able to stay hydrated even though they may not know how to drink yet. Make sure you soak new food for each feeding, the shelf life of soaked dog food is short!


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## shelory (Dec 3, 2007)

Well i sadly have to tell you that both birds died, I only remembered to thank you guys now sorry about that.
One of them died after having a Ingrid leg, and the other died for no apparent reason, it was even worst as I wasn't home to nurse them to health as I was at school (boarding school) and only herd of the news by phone.

Thanks for all of your advice and patience. I now have a pigeons nest in my windowsill an am enjoying seeing the parents have there baby stuff his little beak into there gullets, I just want to pick that little critter up and snuggle him but I don't want to get my sent on him. It seams that another egg was laid in the same nest after a month after the first one hatched, ill see what's up with that


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear the youngsters died.

Pigeons do start another clutch when the babies are about 14 days old.


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