# Ruptured air sac or air in crop? PLEASE HELP!



## robin.pollard (Aug 2, 2010)

Please help baby apx 2 weeksold feeding kaytee exact maybe fed too much air in crop crop huge see air even behind neck at "shoulder blades" huge appetite still strong seems very warm worried may have yeast or bact infection now in crop

please call 720-329-3574 im in the denver area dont want to loose little guy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

How much have you been feeding each time? A ruptured air sac will result in the skin puffing out and being very transparent while an overfull crop will look quite different. Can you post a picture?

Terry


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## robin.pollard (Aug 2, 2010)

feeding about 10 cc each time cant post pic til later unless you can give me your address and i can take pic from my phone... sorry
i can see thru his little skin crop area looks like its separated into three pockets...
also i can see thru the skin on the sides of his neck


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I hope that the pictures in *this album* can help identify the cause.

They are photos of a baby dove with a ruptured air sac but the owner thought it might be air in the crop. He was talked through the procedure for dealing with a ruptured air sac by owlmomma from this forum and the last time I heard the baby was doing well.


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## robin.pollard (Aug 2, 2010)

I fed him a small ammount of kaytee and put about a quarter teaspoon of plain yoghurt with it. The pics look slightly similar but the dove looks more swolen. I didn't feed hhim for awhile but gave him about 5ml warm water and waited about two hours. His crop was baggy but I could still feel air in it and a little air above his wing area near back of his neck. After I fed him there was more noticeable and palpable air. I will try to post pictures asap


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## robin.pollard (Aug 2, 2010)

here are two pics i hoipe they come out ok


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## Ede-bird (Jul 7, 2010)

Bumping it up.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

This looks more like lots of 'Air' in the Crop.


Could you be getting Air into the Crop when feeding?


What was the Baby's appearence previously?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, pic #1 looks to me like solids are collecting at the bottom of the crop and not passing through .. not good. Pic #2 appears to have been taken from above the bird and looking down on the back and the little "pockets" above the shoulder joints .. definitely air filled. Hard to say what's really going on here, but my guess is that the crop is impacted at the bottom and food is not moving out. 

You are going to get lots of opinions and suggestions, so use your head and try to match what is being said to what you are actually seeing with this little bird.

My suggestion is to tube a small bit of warm water with a couple of drops of vegetable oil in it and then massage the crop to break up any masses and see if the crop empties.

If it does not empty, then we are into more serious territory. You can't keep putting "stuff" in if nothing is going out.

Please carefully read whatever may be posted in this thread, and let us know what action you may be taking.

EDIT: You may also need to try to gently "burp" this bird by gently pressing the air out of the crop with your fingers. I apologize for not just calling you in the first place, but I think it's getting too late at night to do that now.

Terry


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## trinity (May 18, 2007)

I too had one active bird with this problem but never had problem in feeding or other daily activities. One fine day that got cured itself


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Indeed, as Terry says.


Images of the poops?


How have the poops been recently?

If able to gently encourage some 'burping', see if the 'Air' has any scent/odor.


This could be gas from fermenting foods stalled in the Crop lower area.


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## robin.pollard (Aug 2, 2010)

Yesterday I "flushed" his crop with some warm water before his morning feeding (on an empty crop) and waited 2 hours. When his crop is empty it seems baggy but slightly air filled still. I palpated the crop area feeling for food remains and didn't feel anything. ? Today I will try the vegetable oil. When I first found him his crop was not air filled or swolen but I recall noticing the three seperate areas. My first gut feeling is that he has air in his crop from a yeast or bacterial infection. His body looks red and is warmer than before but he is cooling and turning lighter day by day. I don't understand how to burp him. Also, I am not using a tube to feed him as it is very thin and I can't find an appropriate sized one so I use an oral syringe. No air bubbles noticed. I thinl he may be swallowing air himself as he looks down, butting his bottom beak practicaly on his chest and then opens his mouth wide when I present him with the syringe. ?


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

Just curious, what feeding method are you using? Are you tube feeding him? And is that 10ccs of food per feeding or per day? He's a little small for 10cc each time. I would try spreading it out. I usually feed birds that size about 5-7 ccs 4X a day. I don't start 10cc feedings until I start to see feathers or they aren't putting on significant weight. 

The oil is a great idea, mineral oil (if you can get some) works well too. You might want to try stimulating the birds to poop after feeding. Mineral oil with a q-tip applied to the vent in a circular motion usually does the trick!


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## robin.pollard (Aug 2, 2010)

I've been feeding him about 10 cc with oral syringe three times a day. I will bump down and look for mineral oil. His stool looks normal and there's a lot of it! It has definition and looks to be dark green in color with the usual white. "Urine". But maybe its not normal and I just think it is.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi rp,



Exactly what are you feeding him?

How are you preparing it?


I always fed 'Babys' by allowing them to eat from the hollow side of a regular people-baby-nursing-nip ple.


Formula has to be good tasting, 'soupy', and close to body temp.


Baby needs to feel a light pressure/tactile on the sides of their Beak, imitating what their parent's Throat felt like.

This may take a little trial and error to acquire the finesse.

I have never used any other method for the very young.



Some images here -


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/



Phil
Lv


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## robin.pollard (Aug 2, 2010)

I love that idea! I'm going to try it right when I get home! I've raised a lot of other kinds of wild birds before but never ones that require crop milk and their parents put food in their mouths so the babies always open for me! This is so different and I don't want him to die from my own ignorance. I am feeding him kaytee exact. Can I get him something better? How long until he can eat solids? Is there a pro biotic I can give him? Can I give him any anti yeast or antibiotic? How do I remove the air in his crop? If I see thin skin with air pockets behind his neck is that a ruptured air sac?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

robin.pollard said:


> I love that idea! I'm going to try it right when I get home! I've raised a lot of other kinds of wild birds before but never ones that require crop milk and their parents put food in their mouths so the babies always open for me!




Hi rp,


The Columbiforms only require Crop Milk for their first week or so.

They can get be fine with even less, if need be.


In Nature, they eat by inseting their Beak into their Parent's Throat, and 'gobbling' the slurry of Seeds and Water which the Parents' bring up from their own Crops.


Here is another link, showing some additional things - 


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/547324376ZDjOCU



Click on the first image to enlarge, and there are captions then.


One can grind good Seeds into powder or moderately coarse powder, ina Blender or small electric Coffee Grinder...keep it dry in a covered cup in the refrigerator...add this to commercial powder formula such as KT.



KT already has probiotics in it...as in fact do Natural Seeds to some extent.


Mix formula, say, half a Tea Cup worth, stirring well, then freeze.

This will hydrate it thoroughly.

Mix-and-feed without this can cause Crop problems, for the formula never really being hydrated thoroughly...and becomes a semi impervous 'slug' in the lower Crop.

Thaw, warm it in a Pan of Hot Water, to be about body temperature.

Refreeze till next Meal-time.



Never use a microwave.


Add more Water if need be, for consistency to be about like melted Ice Cream on a hot day.


Smallest whole Seeds ( Canary or Finch Seeds ) can be added to the Nip ple Formula at feed time.





> This is so different and I don't want him to die from my own ignorance. I am feeding him kaytee exact. Can I get him something better?


KT is fine...it and home made fresh ground Seeds and dry Berries is in my opinion, even better.




> How long until he can eat solids?


Get this stuff down first. Once about eight or nine days old, he can have small whole Seeds in the Formula.

Further things after that...which we can cover as things go.




> Is there a pro biotic I can give him? Can I give him any anti yeast or antibiotic? How do I remove the air in his crop? If I see thin skin with air pockets behind his neck is that a ruptured air sac?




I am not sure what is going on with his Crop, other than some formula issues previously.


I need some images, good close up ones, of his poops/urates to narrow this down.


Ruptured Air Sac would be independent of the Crop.


He may be having some Candida troubles from having been chilled, or from formula troubles.

'Medistatin' would be the usual recourse.

'Baking Soda' I understand can also be used, but I nave never tried it.

Terry Watley would know about the Baking Soda method, I will PM her to ask her to review it for you in your Thread here.


The Nip ple also allows a Baby to drink tepid Water between meals, provided his Beak is correctly guided, and the Nip ple softly squeezed to imitate the tactile-experience of the Parent's Throat.

With the Nip ple, Baby eats like a Horse from a Nose Bag sort of...Nipple is held about to his mid chest height, and out a little ways...tilted toward him.

Get this worked out, and he can drink his Medistatin solution.


Good luck!


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Feeding Baby Pigeons is a balance of several things.

Food prep...right temperature and right consistency, good flavor...

Hydration needs - drinking between Meals.

Smallish to medium sized Meals fairly often...avoid large meals.


Constantly monitoring poops/urates...

Keeping the Baby warm, and protected, out of any drafts.

Probably, you could gently open get him to have his neck straight up, head and Beak pointing 'up', and 'Nuzzling' your finger tips in this position, and, the Air would be able to get out as he is 'peeping'.


Warm, slightly moist finger tip pads on his Beak will get him 'Nuzzling' well.

Nuzzling is his way of asking to be fed.


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