# Help seriously needed



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm afraid of the responses I'm gonna get...but...As much as it hurts to type this, I'm not getting anywhere unless I get as many opinions as I can on what's happening to my birds. My worst nightmare is happening and I don't know what it is or how to stop it, SOMETHING has gotten into my aviary and I have a feeling by the end of the week I won't have a single bird left in there.
This all started Monday afternoon, when I noticed two of my hens dead. Everyone looked perfectly fine before, even the hens looked healthy before. I didn't see a single sign of diarrhea, canker...anything. They didn't even feel like they had gone light first. Last week we had this huge storm hit us, and flooded everything, which we didn't expect. I'm thinking whatever has gotten my birds, it's because the storm washed it in here. I told my dad and we moved the aviary to a new grassy area to leave any sickness behind. The only antibiotic I have is terramycin, so that's what I started them on. Once again, everyone else looked fine Monday.
Then yesterday, I come home to find about 5 more birds had died, and a few looked sick this time. I isolated them, and they too died within hours. Today so far I've lost more, so within 3 days, I've lost several birds. I've got all my separate cages full with the birds that looked a little if-y this morning, and other healthy ones to treat and prevent anything from happening.
I don't know what to do, what happened...I don't know what to think. Me and my dad both are clueless and frustrated because we feel like all we can do is sit and watch them go  The symptoms I've seen are *vomiting whole food, some visibly had diarrhea, and a few gushed water out of their beak when I picked them up*, right before they passed. Sounds a lot like Adeno from what I've read, since they're going so quickly from the time they even show signs of being unwell. We've narrowed it down to Adeno and fungi, but those are just our guesses. First I thought maybe canker/wet canker that causes diarrhea and vomiting, but the mouth shows no signs, and my dad...dissected...one of the dead ones, and again no canker anywhere that we could see. The only thing that looked abnormal was this sticky green stuff that was attached to the inside of the crop. We have no clue what that is?? They had eaten a lot of grass, but that stuff...was not grass, there's just no way.

I know the first suggestion, go get the vet. We're working on that. In the meantime I'm just looking for all the help I can get. I searched and saw Kippy had a problem sort of similar from the sounds of it. Can someone help?  I feel really, really horrible about this. This sorta stuff....just...isn't supposed to happen. Also by the way, all the birds currently in there_ look_ fine, but I know they probably _aren't_ fine. Any that looked sick I've isolated. I don't know if I'll be able to stop it, but I would like to know how to prevent this from happening again.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Becky...look at this link and see if you notice any other symptoms.
What preventative treatments have you given your birds and how long ago, such as worming, treating for canker, etc? Are they on a schedule?
http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/symptoms.htm


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## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

Becky, be sure you take a dead bird for an autopsy when you go to the vet


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Im so sorry about this heartbreak...its so scary....I would take a bird to the vet or a dead one so she/he can run test....you maybe right about your diagnosis but in the long run you will want to know for sure....so i would start running tests do a process of elimination....i know a avian vet at another hosp. if you need me to ask her any questions just let me know..stay strong.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, that's one of the things I really want to make sure gets done. I can't go anywhere until my dad gets home though, so I'm hoping everyone holds on a little while longer.
At least by doing an autopsy or any other tests, we can know for sure what they have.

Charis,
I'm not really on a schedule medicine wise. I try not to give them much more medicine than I have to unless a problem comes up. The last time I wormed them was a few months ago, and I was actually planning on worming them again this week just in case, until this happened of course. The last time I gave them any form of medicine before this, was about a month ago, when I gave them some sulmet. From then I've just had regular ACV in the water. Like I said, nothing's changed until this storm came.
As far as the symptoms go, I'm fixing to go back outside to take a closer look and see if I find anything else.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

I am soooo sorry to hear this news Becky -- the heartarch & frustration must be incredible  I wish I has any ideas to suggest for immediate treatment.

I know you're a little over 2 hrs from Raleigh, NC, but it might be worth calling the College of Veterinary Medicine (NC State University) -- http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vth/clinical_services.html

From what I've read they are one of the top rated Veterinary Teaching Hospital's in the country and would certainly have the necessary equipment and expertise to maybe help diagnose what's happening. They may be able to do some analysis on one of the bird's you've lost to figure out what that green stuff is that you & your Dad saw lining the crop. They may even have come across it already (depending on how wide spread the flooding was/is in your area). At any rate - I'd say it's worth making a phone call. And hey - use your age to your advantage too! Sometime people are more willing to go out of their way to help a teenager who "might be considering veterinary school" (*wink* - maybe? - *wink*) [an aside - I think you'd make a great vet]. In any case, you get the idea I'm sure 

If there is ANY way at all that I can help please let me know. Good luck & keep us posted!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it's viral, then you're unlikely to get immediate confirmation. Cytology on the green might be helpful. The only thing that I can think of that you might do to help them is to get them some more feed from a different place in case there's a bunch of aflatoxins in the stuff that you've got. Also, make sure that they stay warm. It sounds like their systems are shutting down in very short order. If, in the hours before they die, you don't see their respiration rates going up then it's attacking their central nervous systems directly. If it were possible, you'd separate a few healthy-seeming individuals and use different mediations on them as possible preventatives. A really bad Chlamydophila outbreak can kill that fast but you'd be getting sick, too. The Tetracycline that you've got could stop that if that's what it was.

In any case, you're going to have to note all behavior and symptoms of an individual bird that you're losing with respect to the timeline--that will help with a diagnosis, even for the vet.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Becky...I would thoroughly clean and disinfect your coop including all dishes you use for food and water.
Given this is a critical situation, you really don't have time to order and try medications from a pigeon supply. I think that to save the remaining birds, you must seek veterinary care immediately.
After this crisis has past, I would encourage you to treat your birds regularly for worms and canker and keep the coop as clean as you can. You also need to create your own first aid kit that includes, at the very least a canker treatment, wormer and coccidia medication. You can add to it as time goes on.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear about this happening in your loft.

After going thru several hurricanes, and my worries....the only thing I can think of is.. are your birds eating any seed that was soaked or is there any standing water inside your coop anywhere and on what surface? They can get very sick from eating wet seed that has sat.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

First off thank you for all the help and kind words so far.
I went out to check the two birds I have in isolation, as well as a dead one that must have passed in the last hour.
Seems like with every bird, a little something is different. Didn't see any signs of canker in the birds before, but now I think it maybe a different story, based on these two birds.

First bird I call 'RC'. She appears alert and okay, but she's been sitting on the bottom of the cage the whole time, and is reluctant to move. The first thing I noticed when I picked her up, was an almost orange color liquid that dripped on me from her vent. With another look I saw green (not bright/light, or dark, just...green) droppings blocking her vent. They were more liquid than they're supposed to be, but I can't really discribe it. Opening her mouth I saw it was normal color, didn't see a problem with excess saliva, but I did see one small white bump in the back of the throat. Pox? Canker? I don't know. But it was white and it didn't look like you could scrape it off like canker, but more under the skin like pox lesions. There was only one. RC is also a bit underweight, keel sticking out a bit, but nothing drastic. Couldn't feel any food in her crop. Also looked like she was panting a bit. Her mouth was slightly open and her body looked like it had to work to breathe.

The next bird was hard to examine. The minute I opened his beak, water came out and I was afraid to try again in fear he might drown himself. I managed to open it a litttle bit the second time, just enough to see two small yellow spots on the side of the beak, in the mouth. Looked more like canker this time instead of RC's 'pox'. Again the water came so I gave up opening his beak. With a couple quick glances I didn't see anything else that stood out on him. He too kept his beak open a bit, but could stand and walk, and didn't look like he was having as hard a time breathing. He's also a little underweight, hasn't eaten today, but his eyes are alert also.

As for the dead bird, it was hard to tell since it was already stiff and cool. I did notice before she passed that she was like RC, not wanting to stand, but not even wanting to hold her head up much. I looked at her vent, and saw a yellow tinted white paste. No green or brown whatsoever.
Seems like I ended up with a rainbow of different poops! 

Now that the sun has come out, no one in the aviary is fluffed up or sickly looking. Everyone's just relaxing and enjoying the sun. All the males, whether they had been vomiting before or not, were they're normal selves...showing off  It seems like the hens are the main victims here, the boys are holding up pretty strong.

Dezirrae,
Yeah this isn't easy, which is why I'm here and not at school today. This morning I just wasn't in any shape to go take a bunch of hard classes. NC State is in the top 5 veterinary schools in the US I believe, so I'll see what I can do. In fact that is where I plan on going to be an avian vet. I'll definitely call if nothing else.

Pidgey,
Well the good thing is I'm not sick, besides allergies, so in that case Chlamydophila may not be it. I feed all my birds the same food, and only the ones in that aviary are sick. Oh wait. One thing I did do to the feed, is lately I've given the birds some oil+brewers yeast/garlic powder on the food. I didn't give them a lot, and it was only for one day, but could have have contributed to the problem? Again it didn't effect any of my other birds. That stuff always seemed to help my young birds. I'll see if we can go get some food from somewhere else just in case. The current mix has a lot of big stuff like peas and popcorn, do you think I should try to find something a little easier to digest and keep down, for the birds that are vomiting? If so, what do you suggest?
Hmmm...let's see. I do think most, if not all the birds that I noticed were bad off before they went, did have some difficulty breathing. Right now all the birds have sun so everyone's warm. It gets worse when the sun goes down, so I'm gonna have to find a way to keep the weak warm. I'm pretty sure we can find some heat lamps or something around here to help.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> I am so sorry to hear about this happening in your loft.
> 
> After going thru several hurricanes, and my worries....the only thing I can think of is.. are your birds eating any seed that was soaked or is there any standing water inside your coop anywhere and on what surface? They can get very sick from eating wet seed that has sat.



*Have they been eating wet seed? *


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Charis and Treesa,
With all these storms, I wouldn't be surprised if they did accidentally eat wet seed. I do my best to keep everything clean and sanitized all the time, but with messy eaters and sudden floods, it can be hard to get down there and clean it up before someone gets a hold of wet seed. Of course I wouldn't let them eat it on purpose. If I see wet or contaminated food, I get rid of it immediately. I do have at least one antibiotic all the time, along with fish zole, wormer, and I just ran out of my cocci medicine. Also got some garlic capsules and eye cold drops in my medicine shelf in the fridge. There is a guy we know that sells pigeon supplies like this, but he's a bit too far to drive all the time. We get what we need when we visit (which we're actually going again this saturday, so I'll be sure to pick up medicine) and otherwise try to find things more locally. I think after this is over, if I have any birds from that cage left, we'll probably just tear it down and build a few more individual cages for the pairs. I just don't like that aviary one bit now, and I never really have.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Becky,
It's really hard to treat when you don't know for sure what to treat for but if I had the medicines you have, I would treat individually with Fishzole [Metronidazole].

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/drug-chart-drawn-up-by-nooti-15947.html


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MaryOfExeter,





From your descriptions, this would have the attributes of Candida or Yeast or Mildew infections in their Crops...possibly with Canker attending in some of them.


"Crop Stasis" at any rate, with Foods and Liquids not passing...and, 'gushing' when stressed or excited.


This can of course kill them.



Whether or not this began as a Viral infection, or not, and of course it does not need to have, the regimen for this, to my understanding, would be to use 'Medistatin' or 'Nystatin' and to insist everyone fast for a couple days.


I would with-hold Water also, for at least a day...or at leastfrom any whose Crops are not 'passing' well...and, if possible, give everyone 'Metronidaole' and also tube 'in' some ACV or ACV-Water, into those Crops which have room for it...


You do not want them to have Crops full of non-passing foods and liquids...so, only add ACV-Water into their Crops, according to how much room is in there, and, according to how the liquids in there will dilute the proportion you are adding...where, one can tube in a little 'straight' ACV into a Static Crop which is say, half full of Liquids...only a couple 'drops' worth though, if for that situation.


This, along with the Medistatin or Nystatin...along with the Metronidaole, will kill off the offending Molds or Yeats and so on, in their Crops and digestive system.




'Gushing' is extremely dangerous, and can occasion aspiration of contaminated liquids, giving them however many different kinds of pneumonia, and killing them then in a day or less, sometimes much less.


If you can get one to a Vet, and explain how many others are in the same boat, iofthe Vet even knows enoughto diagnose this, or to affirm the probable diagnosis this seems to represent, then, the Vet might be able to set you up with enough Medistatin or Nystatin to have everyone on a regimen for three or four days...


You need to 'tube' it in...

Do you know how?





Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Trichomoniasis doesn't kill like this--it'd be far more helter-skelter on the older birds. A really nasty Paratyphoid would be more likely if it's not viral. Some of those can present with an elevated respiration rate because the RBC (Red Blood Cell) count is going down quickly (acute anemia). As such, they have an increasingly difficult time getting enough oxygen. When that happens, your best bet is to get them on a double dose of Enrofloxacin (Baytril) ASAP. Salmonellosis isn't the only thing to do that, though, so it is a bit of a shot in the dark.

Start counting the respiration rates--healthy individuals should have a rate down there in the low 30s as long as they're not exercising.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A simple, casual Necropsy would be able to show whether the Crop and passage to the Stomach is clogged with Mold , old and other Fungi, and swollen with inflamation...


The Birds were 'throwing up' Seeds and green 'mold' like material.


This sort of thing can get started and have no obvious signs, untill the Birds are dieing...unless one were really observing them to see non-passing Crops.


'Gushing' is typical, since when Liquids are not passing, the Bird gets thirsty and over-drinks, filling their Crop too full...the liquid is nasty, they aspirate inadvertantly, and, if they do not die of the condition as it is, they die of aspiration issues resultant of the condition...


Canker, of course can sometimes clog a Crop...but we would not expect it to be doing so on so many Birds at once...where, Mold, Yeast, Mildew or Candida, can...and, this would co-respond well enough to the situation's lead-ins, of possibly wet or damp Seed, cold, stress, flooding, and whatever else as went with it.


If these Birds were a little run down to begin with, and ate Seeds having some virulent strain of Mold or Fungi ( which a damp or wet Seed can have for itself in half-a-day of being wet, ) then...


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Becky,

I don't have anything to add as the others have already given you good advice. I am so sorry you are going through this. Loosing a bird is hard enough, but loosing several as you are and not knowing what to do for them is heartbreaking. 

I hope the ones left will be OK and that you can pull any others with symptoms through this. Were your birds in individual cages or an open loft when this began?

Hugs to you and healing thoughts for your birds and you.

Margaret


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't have anything to add either, but my heart goes out to you. I'm so very sorry this is happening to your pigeons! It's a nightmare, the kind of thing we all dread. I can tell you take good care of your birds. I'm praying you'll get to the bottom of this and won't lose any more birds. 

-Cathy


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well a nice little update is, none of the healthy looking birds have turned for the worst, and the sick ones I have isolated are still hanging in there for the time being. We'll just have to see how they are tomorrow and if they're responding to treatment.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MofE,


What is the 'Treatment' they are getting, to see how they respond to it?



Phil
l v


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Margarret,
Thank you for the nice thoughts 
The birds were in an open loft, so I'm not sure if one bird spread it, or if they all got it at the same time/from the same thing. I think it's fairly obvious either some birds just got it worse, or some birds are just stronger than the others. My dad really honestly thinks this is fungal, but then there's the possibility of it being viral. Found out the local avian vet was closed early today, but we did call a few people to ask their opinions and none of them knew what to say other than keep the sick birds away and hope for the best, since their best guess was it was a virus and we couldn't really stop it. And to treat for canker, like you guys said, cause it's one of those common secondary diseases.

Phil,
I tried giving the birds the Fishzole like suggested earlier. Managed to get it down the birds without them gushing water everywhere. A few of the more healthy ones I tried just not doing anything different than the terramycin I had been giving them. I'm afraid I'll just end up making the healthier ones more sick by giving them too much medicine and stress their systems. Didn't see any canker in those, and they too are isolated, so I just let them be. The only ones that were gushing were the ones that appeared to have a speck or two of canker in the mouth/throat, so in that case it could be a good possibility that that's what's causing the crop to do that?
There's so much stuff that it could be, and so much I could give them. It's confusing on just what to go with


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Margarret,
> Thank you for the nice thoughts
> The birds were in an open loft, so I'm not sure if one bird spread it, or if they all got it at the same time/from the same thing. I think it's fairly obvious either some birds just got it worse, or some birds are just stronger than the others. My dad really honestly thinks this is fungal, but then there's the possibility of it being viral. Found out the local avian vet was closed early today, but we did call a few people to ask their opinions and none of them knew what to say other than keep the sick birds away and hope for the best, since their best guess was it was a virus and we couldn't really stop it. And to treat for canker, like you guys said, cause it's one of those common secondary diseases.
> 
> ...


Becky...I suspect it's more than just one thing going on with your birds. Canker can be INTERNAL too, which means you wouldn't SEE it in the throat. STRESS can bring on an OUTBREAK of canker and with the FLOODING, that would be STRESSFUL. That's why many of us treat for canker on a regular basis, to keep it at bay and avoid an outbreak. It's important to rotate the canker drug to avoid your birds building a resistance to any one medicine.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2008)

You said there's been storms and flooding, that the aviary is on grass, and that the birds had been eating a lot of grass. Is it possible the grass was treated with any chemical or fertilizer? If not, any chance a chemical could have been spread from another area by flooding? Any pest spraying done in your area? Where does the water they drink come from? Could that be contaminated? 

I hope you figure this out soon. I can't imagine how heartbreaking this must be for you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MofE, 




Oh my, I'd sort of glossed over the 'eating Grass' part.


Are you sure they actually were eating Grass?


That in itself could kill them...it could sodden and clog their Crop, start fermenting in there, and be very bad indeed...


Fresh 'Greens' are sometimes craved by Pigeons, but, the Greens have to be those sorts we would eat...which they can pass, and manage...but even then, possibly, if not tiny Bites, even those could lead to problems.


Grass is not digestible to Birds or People...Ungulates who do digest it, have three Stomachs in which to ferment it via symbiotes, special enzymes, ample, and successive 'chewing', ( 'Chewing their Cud' and so on, which is re-chewing already swallowed, semi-frerments, Grass, ) they have internal Yeasts and so on...



Ohhhhhhhhhhhh...yeeeeeeeeeeeesh...if they were eating Grass, it would be very bad for them...



Anyway, "ACV" if nothing else is handy...and or, I believe what you need here, in part, definitely, are anti-fungals, "Nystatin" or "Medistatin" and the 'poor mans' sort of 'made do', if one does not have those, can be "ACV-Water"...

Mix four Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of good Water...haver this be their water for now, have in glass or plastic or stainless steel containers, no 'Galvanized' or 'Zink' containers...


The things in the Throats you saw, might be Candida or Yellow or Orange or off-white Fungus and not Canker...even though as a fungal infection weakens them, Canker can start up in addition.


Get to that Vet tomorrow, bring a deceased one with for a fast, casual Necropsy, tell him that a Fungal infection of the Crop is 'suspected' and tell him everything else, in two seconds, he can say "Eye, or Nay" and you go from there...tell him about the 'grass' of course...though it might be present clogging the Crop of the deceased one being necropsy'd...anyway...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes I know canker can be internal. I can't say that there_ isn't_ a bird in there with internal canker, but I do know the bird my dad looked at didn't as far as he could find. Crop was clear, but we did see that bird had eaten a lot of greens.
One of the very first thoughts that came to mind when I saw my birds like this, was that something or someone (long story short, there are some trouble makers around here  ) had poisoned them. The flood could very well have washed some type of chemical, sickness, or something, into the aviary. The water I provide for them is fresh and clean everyday, as well as the food. The grass they were eating when I said that, was in a different spot and on a hill, so maybe not as much, if anything at all, had accumulated on it. We personally haven't put any chemicals in the yard. They weren't really eating like...grass blades or leaves or anything, but the _seeds_ the plants make. So I guess 'wild seeds' would have sounded a bit better than saying 'grass'.
When I get home I'll do the 4 tablespoons of vinegar per gallon, and give everyone a canker pill. I'm also in the process of hounding my dad about taking some birds to the vet today


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Instructions from the resourse section for Metronidazole [Fishzole]*

METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl, Torgyl, Stormogyl)

Dose 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days. 

In very rare cases, liver damage can be caused by prolonged use over 14 days - but it is very rare and one must balance the risks.
If maintained for 14 days or more it is highly effective against a severe infection of trichomonas gallinae and in preventing an inside recurrence- (not reinfection from an outside source, ie another bird).
Used for anaerobic, (flushing deep wounds), and protozoal infections. Can be given concurrently with Amoxy and Trim Sulphas.


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

The symptoms described by Becky in her first post look like "Adenovirus of type II" (perfectly healthy birds die within a few hours, vomiting, yellow diarrhea). We call it "sudden death " in Belgium. It is viral, no treatment, only supportive care. Happened to me in 2005, 10% of my rescued birds died. Nothing I could do. It was a nightmare. I really hope this is not what is happening in your loft, it is incredibly sad to watch your pigeons die one by one without being able to stop it.
Here is an article on it in Dutch, you can use Altavista Babelfish for automatic translation:
http://www.pipa.be/artikels/ADINOVIROSEnl.htm

Myriam


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks Charis for the fishzole information. Just got done giving everyone their pills and ACV. The three sick birds I mentioned being in isolation that had started gushing yesterday, didn't make it. I can pretty much say for sure that they don't start doing that until they're too bad off. The healthy ones I didn't even see throwing up today.
Adeno virus II sounds like it, yes. Only one so far showed signs of yellowish droppings though, and some don't even look to have diarrhea period. But of course those are the healthier ones that...look healthy. I hope they stay that way and make it through this.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Becky, It is the nature of birds to not act sick even when they are. A bird that acts sick, in the wild, is much more vulnerable to predators and so as a defense, they act well for as long as they can. When you notice a sick bird, that bird is really sick and time is of the essence.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Would a viral outbreak be associated with crop stasis? Seems to me that a bacterial or fungal infection would be more likely.

Jennifer


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Would a viral outbreak be associated with crop stasis? Seems to me that a bacterial or fungal infection would be more likely.
> 
> Jennifer




Well...you and me both...


But, oh well...


Who knows what various Virus can do...and also, they will effect different age Pigeons differently, and effect Pigeons in differing Healthor condition, differently...anyway.


Personally, I'd think Adenovirus or other Virus to not be the issue here...


And rather, I suspect a fungal or candida like condition, however they got it, occasioning Crop Stasis, partial stasis or complete, ending up with Birds over drinking from thirst since nothing was passing...then, 'gushing', as they will, under such Circumstances.

Two seconds with a Pair of Scissors in a cursory Necropsy, and you could say if the deceased had a clear Crop and passage, or not, and if not, what it looked like...any Vet ought to be able to say then if he sees a Fungal or Candida lie condition...but, that has not been done.

Viruses can shut down their digestive system, but, it tends also to shut down any interest in eating prior to that, so that the Vuirus effected Pigeons would not tend to have other than empty Crops, where, it is then the tube-feeds which do not pass...Medistatin and all...nothing passes...


This is not what we find described here though...


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Crop stasis is GI stasis. When you're dying, the body usually does shut organs down in a certain order, the brain being last.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

this link might be helpful for your situation 
http://www.racingpigeondigest.com/current/featured_article/


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Great article. I especially liked this part....

"What to do if Your Birds have 'Young Bird Disease' i.e. Circo virus infection?
The first thing to do is accurately establish the diagnosis. This means contacting the vet. If you have several young birds become sick, don't assume a diagnosis. The problem may be Circo virus or it may be one of the other problems mentioned earlier. Don't rely on the old guy down at the club or your neighbour who also races pigeons. They don't have the diagnostic testing available and this simply wastes time. Similarly don't go to the local dog and cat vet. If he doesn't do a lot of bird work, he can't be expected to know and it is therefore unfair to be critical of him. Go to a qualified avian vet or a vet with a lot of bird experience. It's worth mentioning here that avian vets might be rare in your locality, but you don't have to be near one. Phone to have a test kit mailed out to you or organize to send a live bird to them via courier. 50% of the thousands of fanciers who use my clinic as their veterinary provider live more that 50 miles from the clinic."

I realize that this article was primarily written for Australian pigeon keepers and it would be great if we could have testing kits mailed to us too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Crop stasis is GI stasis.






Well...no, it is not...

Crop Stasis can and does occur with a perfectly well functioning intact GI tract...even it also can and does occur with a non-functioning shut-down GU tract.


It all depends on what the illness, infection or underlieing condition/reason is, does it not?

A Crop obturated by a foreign object, initially anyway, partial or fairly complete Stasis will only be beginning to acquire subsequent infections or fungal related problems, with a still intact and perfectly fine GI tract...unhampered by anything.


A Crop obturated by Candida or other inflaming or infected conditions, inflaitory debris, along with whatever objects secondarily, Seeds, or whatever, the GI tract might well be lagging behind till it does catch up with it's own degree of trickle-down infection, if it gets any at all...till then, it might be functioning just fine, or good enough, IF it had anything to do besides excrete Bile...or, finish up whatever it does have of prior foods.





> When you're dying, the body usually does shut organs down in a certain order, the brain being last.
> 
> Pidgey



Well, sure...and...?


I do not see how this per-se applies here, to this, or to any of the conjectural describes of what is going on.


As usual, or as often, we know almost nothing of what is going on, other than a few tid bits, suggesting Crop Stasis, and, Pigeons surmised ( by me anyway ) to be over-drinking, whatever else or whatever food is also in their Crops, since nothing is getting through hydration wise, and, they are "thirsty" or were thirsty...and, for over-drinking, with a static Crop condition, they 'gush' and kill themselves via aspirated fluids...possibly quite nasty, mouldy, toxic fluids, at that.


As for 'why' any of this got going, who knows?


But once it is got going, there is a practical 'check list' of things to look for, and things to look out for, and one of those things, is to see if in fact one can determine, by 'swab' or 'Necropsy', or off the cuff impiricals, what general sort of Organisms appear to be over-abundant in the Crop, debris, foreign objects or aggregates of goo and Sees making a 'plug', as well as palpating, or whatever else, in order to elect a course of action or regimen, to address at least "that" issue prospectively...since, regardless of whatever else is suspected or actually going on, these over-full fluid filled Crops are in temselves, enough TO "Kill" them...even if everything else was "Okay", and, it might be everything else is Okay, for all we know.


This does not mean, nor is there any indications I recall reading in this thread, that any of these Birds had shut-down GI Tracts...some were pooping, others not, or others, who knows...but, they can get Crop Stasis while still digesting or processing the past atenuated remnants of earlier foods, and still be pooping WITH an obturated or static Crop, so...


That's my sense of things here with this...



Love, 


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I was probably being a little literal on the term "stasis". Yes, an obstruction isn't the same thing, but that's not really stasis, either. Stasis, as I'm applying it, is the total cessation of peristalsis. I'm going on MaryOfExeter's indication of the pathological acuteness for the birds that died. Most things, even bad ones like horrible canker, don't move anywhere near that fast. That's the work of a lethal virus (to susceptible individuals), bacteria or toxin (which may be produced by a bacteria).

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> I'm going on MaryOfExeter's indication of the pathological acuteness for the birds that died. Most things, even bad ones like horrible canker, don't move anywhere near that fast. That's the work of a lethal virus (to susceptible individuals), bacteria or toxin (which may be produced by a bacteria).


It seems clear there is some kind of pathogen involved, but we're really no closer to knowing whether it's viral, bacterial, or fungal in nature, are we? Given that MoE said that the outbreak coincided with heavy flooding, I'd logically lean toward the latter. Does this make sense to anyone but me?

I have observed in dying birds that the organs do shut down in a certain order, but I have never witnessed the digestive system shutting down to the point of the bird gushing fluids? Have others observed this?

Jennifer


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

> Given that MoE said that the outbreak coincided with heavy flooding, I'd logically lean toward the latter. Does this make sense to anyone but me?
> 
> Jennifer



Jennifer, 

Makes total sense to me. The birds most likely drank some contaminated water from the flooding. The pathogen could be anything. Or it could be one of the poisons from agricultural runoff.

Margaret


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On the gushing fluids part, I'd just thought that the bird had tried to drink (they will often attempt to purge disease from themselves like that) but that it just didn't go through due to absolute stasis. As morbidity progresses towards death, they just don't have the strength to keep the upper esophagus closed anymore and any pressure applied in picking them up, or even their own flight response (obviously severely degraded at this point) causes them to just upchuck the stuff.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Becky, first off, I'm terribly sorry this is happening. Been through it myself though not in these numbers. To me, it sounds like it is bacterial or fungal.

The NC Vet School closed its avian operation a few years ago. Now, that is not to say they still don't have some fine vets who are knowledgeable about avian diseases so it is worth a shot to call them. 

However, if I could suggest one person, that would be Dr. Tahseen Aziz, Pathologist, of Rollins Diagnostic Lab in Raleigh. This man is an avian pathologist and the one who helped us two years ago when we lost two pigeons to a protozoal outbreak caused, we believe, by roaches. He is of Indian heritage and very knowledgeable. If he needs a second opinion, he will contact the vets at NC State. I have not talked to him except when we have taken a pigeon for necropsy but, hopefully, he may talk with you. His phone number is: 919-733-3986. This lab is a state agency and the place where all diagnostic studies of carcasses is done. He is one of the nicest people I've ever met. This is their web site: http://www.ncvdl.com/

There is also a certified avian vet at the Piedmont Wildlife Center in Durham. I believe her name is Dr. Diane Deresienski who is extremely well thought of in this area. She had been with the Vet School for a number of years. This is their web site: http://www.piedmontwildlifecenter.org/organization She may be able to help you also.

And last is a long shot, but there is a lady in the Charlotte area named Lessie Davis who probably knows about as much about saving birds as a vet. She is a licensed rehabber and I would trust anything she told me. I have never met this lady but have a number of her articles and writings about birds. You may be able to get her number from the Carolina Raptor Center in Charlotte. I'll try to get that link - kept getting a message that server failed.

Personally, I would try to find some Baytril and dose everyone.

Anyhow, keep your chin up and most of all, don't ever be concerned to post something like this. You know we care for you and also know how much this is hurting you and your Dad.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Becky, the Carolina Raptor Center site keeps throwing up a timeout failure. I expect you can get their number fairly easily. Ms. Davis was associated with them at one time.

Becky, I "googled" Lessie Davis' name and found this site. http://www.athomecharlotte.com/max/maxs_list.htm She is listed near the bottom of the page. Phone number in Wingate is 704-233-4111.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> It seems clear there is some kind of pathogen involved, but we're really no closer to knowing whether it's viral, bacterial, or fungal in nature, are we? Given that MoE said that the outbreak coincided with heavy flooding, I'd logically lean toward the latter. Does this make sense to anyone but me?
> 
> I have observed in dying birds that the organs do shut down in a certain order, but I have never witnessed the digestive system shutting down to the point of the bird gushing fluids? Have others observed this?
> 
> Jennifer




Hi Jennifer, Pidgey, MofE, all....



I have had Pigeons who I was afraid were going to 'gush', and, long story short, dealing with their Crop issue, day "two" they were pooping, preening, digesting and standing on one leg for naps.


A non-passing Crop is not an indicator of the GI tract's condition, even if an association can be drawn in those instances where it is.


What I would have done with these Pigeons in question is - 


Investigate the Crops by careful palpation, unless it is a probable 'gusher', to see if I can feel solids, or just liquids.

Done a casual Necropsy of one or more of the deceased, to literally 'see' the inside of their Crop...and see what was in it, also.


Look at the poops, of those who are pooping...look at the urates, especially of those whose Crops are over-full of Liquids.


Make a decision, which, possibly, probably, would be to with-hold Food and Water, adminster 'Medistatin' and 'Metronidazole', and maybe an antibiotic also, and, see what happens.


Those who are overfull of Liquid, if I thought I could get away with it, or who show Crop stasis regardless of Liquid level, I would suction out the Liquid, flush with Saline, suction that out, flush again, suction again, and THEN adminster 'Medistatin'...and or Medistatin and other Meds with a little ACV-Water.



My suspicion here, has been that the Crop issue is the actual primary problem, and is fungal or yeast-Candida related...


This of course can lead to serious or fatal GI issues, ( if in fact it has not follwed them, or kept even pace with them, ) but, also, there can be a time lag for that, and, at the phase of things when first seen, probably/possibly, the time lag would have been favorable.


While this seemed to be a 'sudden onset', more likely, the only things sudden, was noticing the point at which things were conspicuous.


When I get these overfull liquid Crops among the ferals, all I know, is a Pigeon shows up that way and does not fly off again or does not fly well...and or looks uncomfortable or ill or both...and I have no idea about the graduaded sequence of appearance which preceded it, and, probably, there was not much to notice anyway.


So, this sort of thing can appear to be 'sudden', when it has been days or a week or more developing...


If they drank 'flood water' there is no end to possible bad things that Water may have contained.


But, if Crops are not passing, and the Bird over-drinks because he is thirsty and the Crop is not passing the Liquids already in it, he puts himself in peril by being over-full of Liquids.


Why is the Crop not passing?


Well, could be any of many different things, as we know...


But, usually, if nothing else, impirically, prospectively, 'Medistatin' or 'ACV' if nothing else is to be had, will alleviate the problem...and if it does not, you see the next day how things are going, so, you know then, it is not an issue which 'Medistatin' is helping, so probably it is inflamitory debris, a foreign object, or a mechanical obturation of thick goo or sludge and Seeds sticking together, or whatever...if not an infection in the Crop, as well.


BUT, at least giving 'Medistatin' or 'ACV" will take care of things which even if NOT the cause, can still be creating lethal or bad conditions, regardless, so, any static Crop is best given anti-fungals, anti-candida, anti-yeast meds ('Medistatin', 'Nystatin', or, if these are not available, then "ACV" ) , since Candida or Yeast or Fungal issues WILL be occuring almost any time a Crop, for whatever reason, is not passing.



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> On the gushing fluids part, I'd just thought that the bird had tried to drink (they will often attempt to purge disease from themselves like that) but that it just didn't go through due to absolute stasis. As morbidity progresses towards death, they just don't have the strength to keep the upper esophagus closed anymore and any pressure applied in picking them up, or even their own flight response (obviously severely degraded at this point) causes them to just upchuck the stuff.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, 



Yes...this makes sense to me.


If having a non-passing Crop, ven say because of contusion ( this can and does happen also ) they feel thirsty...they KEEP drinking because thy fel thirsty, and soon, they are standing like a 'Penguin' and in danger of 'gushing'.


They can gush from being excited or nervous, releasing the 'closed' esophagus...


I had on a couple months ago, who, as far as I could tell, he'd ran into somehting flying, and bruised the lowr area of his Crop...well, however it is this can be, his Crop was not passing and he was FULL of Water, so much so, his Crop was sagging low and out, like a Capital letter "D" if it had a 'gut' hanging over it's base line.


Anyway...I just provided suportive, non-invasive care, and, in a few days, he'd got his Crop emptied and all went well from there...

There was no disease, no candida, no nothing, other than contusion...and a very stretched out Crop.


Crop took a while to regain it's former elasticity, too...eight days maybe? Ten? he'd really stretched it out a great deal with all that Water, and or, who knows, maybe he'd been fairly full of Water when he flew into something, too...but drank more once grounded...


Love,


Phil
l v


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Good news guys, no more birds have gotten sick in the past few days. Had one go because she was just too light weight and couldn't take it. None of birds left have been vomiting lately that I can tell. No puffing up, no standing motionless, no sleepy eyes. Everyone looks great  I guess the canker meds and ACV worked out after all. Keeping them on a feeding schedule. Haven't measured the exact amount of food they're getting per bird, but they're able to clean up all but a few of the smaller seeds by the time they're done, and they're fed twice a day. Of course they're hungry and ready to eat again by the time I get home, but I think not having food available all the time helps them keep what they do eat, down. At first most of them were light so I kept food in there. Wanted them to get some weight on before they blow away. I noticed when they had food all the time though, they'd eat too much and vomit, but now they don't. I think whatever it was that was making them sick, has been passed now (or so I hope!). I'm happy this is finally over with  And I've still got survivors. Woo 


Thank you guys for all your help. Couldn't have done it without you  I probably would have gone crazy by now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And it may have been viral. Sometimes you just don't know. Best of luck now!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MofE,



Glad to hear things are better now..!


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so glad to hear that whatever afflicted them seems to have passed. Keep up the good work. Hopefully they'll be good from here on out. Feeding them twice a day is the way to go, IMO. That's what I do with my pigeons. I don't like to keep food lying around for a variety of reasons and they do just fine with a twice daily feeding.


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