# NewNew York pigeon vendor selling birds to PA shoots (HSUS)



## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

NEW YORK, July 27 (UPI) -- Humane Society officials have accused a New
York vendor of selling pigeons that end up at Pennsylvania gun clubs, where
they are killed in shooting contests.

The Humane Society of the United States claims Broadway Pigeons and Pet
Supplies sells pigeons to dealers who pass them off for a higher price to
gun clubs in Pennsylvania, the New York Post reported Sunday.

Pigeon dealer Don Bailey one of those alleged to have bought birds from
Broadway Pigeons, lawyers say

Bailey organizes what may be the biggest pigeon shootout in the country,
which starts Thursday and goes until Monday at the Strausstown Rod and Gun
Club in Pennsylvania, the Post said.

Officials have not said whether Bailey recently purchased birds from
Broadway Pigeons.

The newspaper said thousands of pigeons can be killed during a five-day
shooting tournament.

The attorney for Broadway Pigeons owner Joseph Scott said his client
doesn't know where birds go after they leave his store. 

See: [http://www.peopleforpigeons.com] http://www.peopleforpigeons.com 

New York Bird Club


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## EgypSwiftLady (Jan 14, 2008)

So sad to read that there is another unethical person doing this but I am glad that they caught him and hopefully something can be done to stop him from selling them.

One question.... if everyone knows what this gun club is doing and that they are so very cruel, not humane, why can't the gun club be stopped ? or at least fined a very hefty amount of money that would have them thinking twice about doing it again.

Sorry if it seems like a naive question.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

EgypSwiftLady said:


> One question.... if everyone knows what this gun club is doing and that they are so very cruel, not humane, why can't the gun club be stopped ? or at least fined a very hefty amount of money that would have them thinking twice about doing it again.
> 
> Sorry if it seems like a naive question.


I think it's an obvious question, not at all naive. I had a feeling that Pennsylvania is a State where pigeon shoots may still be legal (anyone?) although a few years back the most notorious one (Hegins) was stopped - but for how long.

John


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John_D said:


> I think it's an obvious question, not at all naive. I had a feeling that Pennsylvania is a State where pigeon shoots may still be legal (anyone?) although a few years back the most notorious one (Hegins) was stopped - but for how long.
> 
> John


It is my understanding that they ARE legal in PA. Sad.........I'd love to take their guns and stick em' where the sun don't shine............and pull the trigger.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I find this all so sad and appauling. Can we do anything to stop it?

Sounds like this needs more press attention on the local Pa. level than a short article by UPI.

Does anyone have any media connections/contacts in Pennsylvania???

Where is PETA when you need them????


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> It is my understanding that they ARE legal in PA.


It's HSUS' position that pigeon shoots are illegal; however, PA is the only state in which live shoots are openly practiced. HSUS has been working on putting an end to this abominable practice for at least 10 years now.

http://www.hsus.org/wildlife_abuse/news/pennsylvania_bill_pigeon_shoots.html
http://www.hsus.org/wildlife_abuse/campaigns/contests/pennsylvania_pigeon_shoots.html


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

jenfer said:


> It's HSUS' position that pigeon shoots are illegal; however, PA is the only state in which live shoots are openly practiced. HSUS has been working on putting an end to this abominable practice for at least 10 years now.
> 
> http://www.hsus.org/wildlife_abuse/news/pennsylvania_bill_pigeon_shoots.html
> http://www.hsus.org/wildlife_abuse/campaigns/contests/pennsylvania_pigeon_shoots.html


This is copied from the link in the first post. 

*While pigeon shoots are illegal in New York and animal-rights groups have decried the sport, the century-old contests are legal and popular in rural corners of Pennsylvania. *

I HATE it as much as any of you....but this has been going on for a LONG time and if HSUS can't stop it......... Wonder how many states it's legal in? 
I don't like hunting period. But, we've been there and discussed that, so let's not do it again.
However, IMO opinion, there IS a difference in hunting/shooting wild animals in their habitat and capturing an animal, be it bird, whatever, and taking to to a specific location so that it CAN be shot. THAT is assinine if you ask me and the guys/gals that are doing this are complete and total idiots.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> While pigeon shoots are illegal in New York and animal-rights groups have decried the sport, the century-old contests are legal and popular in rural corners of Pennsylvania.


What I stated about it being HSUS' stance that these shoots have always been illegal came from one of the directors at HSUS, despite what the article says. She made it very clear to me that they are careful to *not* say that it's legal.

BTW, I've lost members of my flocks to netters, so this subject hits all too close to home for me.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> It is my understanding that they ARE legal in PA. Sad.........I'd love to take their guns and stick em' where the sun don't shine............and pull the trigger.


I feel the same Renee. Likewise for live animal shoots of any other kind!

Margaret


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## jeepsterwannabe (Jun 22, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> It is my understanding that they ARE legal in PA. Sad.........I'd love to take their guns and stick em' where the sun don't shine............and pull the trigger.





Margarret said:


> I feel the same Renee. Likewise for live animal shoots of any other kind!
> 
> Margaret




I will assume that both of you people, who are surely ethical , are not suggesting killing people!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

jeepsterwannabe said:


> I will assume that both of you people, who are surely ethical , are not suggesting killing people!


 Sure we are......we want to kill everyone who kills anything, animal or human..........GEEZ......what do you do? Troll the forum looking for something to stir up??????????
OF COURSE WE DON"T WANT TO KILL PEOPLE!! I don't even know why I'm trying to explain myself to you. I guess you've NEVER gotten mad in your entire life and said things that you didn't REALLY mean literally........Get a life.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lwerden said:


> I find this all so sad and appauling. Can we do anything to stop it?
> 
> Sounds like this needs more press attention on the local Pa. level than a short article by UPI.
> 
> ...



I live here in Pa., and if there are live pigeon shoots somewhere, then they must have gone underground. 

There are no laws protecting pigeons in Pa. They are free to shoot at any time you want. There are no "bag" limits, no season limits, nothing. For the most part, most people could care less. There is no ground swell of protest. 

The Higgins pigeon shoot, was put to a stop, because news cameras took footage of still alive pigeons, which had been shot, being stumped on by very young children. It turned the stomachs of people who didn't even like pigeons, and then they had protestors, and the like, and the gun club got all kinds of hate phone calls. 

There does not appear to be any call to out law such events, because there are no public events anywhere to be found. 

Around some of these here parts, they may actually prefer shooting PETA protestors. But, I am pretty sure, there is a law against that.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Apparently there is some kind of legislation winding it's way through the process. 
Doesn't help the birds this year though. There are several articles if you google live pigeon shoots.

Margaret


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

jeepsterwannabe said:


> I will assume that both of you people, who are surely ethical , are not suggesting killing people!


Actually neither Margaret nor Renee said they wanted the recipients of the buckshot to die.......i'm sure they both would rather the pigeon shooters lived with the resulting conditions for many years.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

little bird said:


> Actually neither Margaret nor Renee said they wanted the recipients of the buckshot to die.......i'm sure they both would rather the pigeon shooters lived with the resulting conditions for many years.


That's just great.........


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

little bird said:


> Actually neither Margaret nor Renee said they wanted the recipients of the buckshot to die.......i'm sure they both would rather the pigeon shooters lived with the resulting conditions for many years.


Snicker snicker..


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Actually, I can say as a fact, that there were more people shot in York City, Pa. in 2007 then there were pigeons being shot....at all the public pigeon shoots in all of York County !!

So, the concern among fanciers I know here, is not to try to stop some future pigeon shoot...but to try to get the kids and adults from shooting each other, mainly from drug and gang disputes. Of course it spills over into neighborhoods and innocent people are hurt or killed all the time.

I suspect that a news item talking about pigeon shoots, would be a human interest story, and maybe sell some newspapers. The truth of where the birds really go, may be something else. The birds would not be USDA approved, but I suspect that many end up on the dinner table in some neighborhoods.

If anyone knows of any gun club in Pa. having some sort of organized live bird shoot, I think even the SPCA here would get involved. I think it is now, and has been for quite some time, a non-event here in Pa. If anyone has information to the contrary, I sure would like to know about it.

The article mentions the Strausstown Rod & Gun Club, I looked them up, I guess if they hold one of these things, you can call and ask them for details.


Contact Strausstown Rod & Gun Club 
Phone: (717) 933-8418


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## jeepsterwannabe (Jun 22, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> Sure we are......we want to kill everyone who kills anything, animal or human..........GEEZ......what do you do? Troll the forum looking for something to stir up??????????
> OF COURSE WE DON"T WANT TO KILL PEOPLE!! I don't even know why I'm trying to explain myself to you. I guess you've NEVER gotten mad in your entire life and said things that you didn't REALLY mean literally........Get a life.


 
Anger doesn't solve issues. Now if this forum is for people who want to rant and rave, sign useless petitions, etc. just let me know. I will probably stay out of the "News and Advocacy" forum since objective thinking is discouraged. I will stick with the forums that are geared less toward emotional subjects. 

I guess spending most of my time on a boarding farm with the horses fixed any anger I had. You just cannot get angry around the horses ever. they will only react worse and worse.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What must these sick demented people be like, who think of it as sport, to shoot at helpless birds that are captured and thrown out where they haven't got a snowballs chance in h--l, when they could be shooting at clay birds. How big and important does it make them feel to kill, or worse, injure and not kill, so that the bird lingers and suffers? These same people no doubt belong to the clan as well. Speaks volumes for their character and intelligence.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

jeepsterwannabe said:


> Anger doesn't solve issues.* Now if this forum is for people who want to rant and rave, sign useless petitions, etc. just let me know. *I will probably stay out of the "News and Advocacy" forum since objective thinking is discouraged. I will stick with the forums that are geared less toward emotional subjects.
> 
> I guess spending most of my time on a boarding farm with the horses fixed any anger I had. You just cannot get angry around the horses ever. they will only react worse and worse.


Tsk, tsk, someone who advocates less anger shouldn't be trying to rile people up.  It amuses me to watch you pop up here and there and push people's buttons, as I'm sure it amuses you. My amusement however stems from the knowledge that while you do indeed succeed in riling up someone here and there, most of us here know enough by know from our dealings with you to just ignore you. In other words, you're wasting your time and energy by your intentionally provocative posts, and no one really cares.  You may not have a lot of anger in your life, but your actions and words speak volumes about the lack of true happiness. May you find it. . .elsewhere. 

**************************************************************

Anyway, that is a shame about the live shoots. Sick people are out there, and as I've said before; that's the problem with evolution. . .there's no one to eat the stupid people.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

maryjane said:


> Anyway, that is a shame about the live shoots. Sick people are out there, and as I've said before; that's the problem with evolution. . .there's no one to eat the stupid people.


Ha. Funny.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

maryjane said:


> Tsk, tsk, someone who advocates less anger shouldn't be trying to rile people up.  It amuses me to watch you pop up here and there and push people's buttons, as I'm sure it amuses you. My amusement however stems from the knowledge that while you do indeed succeed in riling up someone here and there, most of us here know enough by know from our dealings with you to just ignore you. In other words, you're wasting your time and energy by your intentionally provocative posts, and no one really cares.  You may not have a lot of anger in your life, but your actions and words speak volumes about the lack of true happiness. May you find it. . .elsewhere.
> 
> **************************************************************
> 
> Anyway, that is a shame about the live shoots. Sick people are out there, and as I've said before; that's the problem with evolution. . .there's no one to eat the stupid people.



I think I concur with your assessment, at least on the first two points. On your last point, human's have fallen victim to the worst predator of all, MAN, many more times over, then all the other predator's combined. We are just plain natural born killers, and always out looking for a fight.  It was the people who survived these fights, and went on reproduce, are the stock from which we all came. Those are the blood lines, from what we "Evolved" from. And nothing much has changed in 5,000 years in that regard.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

Very true "SmithFamilyLoft", never thought of it that way, all the wars and such back in the Barbarian days, would have had an impact on our evolution. Very interesting, hmmmmmm. I hate people that get amusment, from killing and torturing animals, and for that other humans. and "jeepstarwannabe", i wouldnt be at all fased, if some one went around gathering up all the humans, that commit acts of cruelty just for the thrill, and shooting them at ranges. Meh would make the world a much better place.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

jeepsterwannabe said:


> Now if this forum is for people who want to rant and rave, sign *useless petitions*, etc. just let me know. I will probably stay out of the "News and Advocacy" forum


I wanted to say something about petitions. "Evil can only triumph, when good men sit and do nothing" although a petition may not be able to help a siuatuion immediatly, they are designed to help change the future. Its hard to imagine changing the future, but every little thing we do in the present, will ultimatly effect the future, either negetivly, or positively. So if enough people sign a petition, and the management of the corporation targeted by the petition, realise the community is not happy, it may help them change there practises, to prevent the situation happening again. There for saving future lives or what not. 

Im not having a go at you, just wanted to try help you undertstand how "useless petitions" help in the long run. 

Cheers


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I have the same feeling here, I will like to do something to all these killers, and see how they feel, it touch my feeling very deeply, every time I see all these news, not only with pigeons but with animals in general, I wish I can take care all of them, but I know is just a dream. But nop I won't kill anybody, but if I have the opportunity I will make them sufer like they do it with the animals.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

maryjane said:


> Tsk, tsk, someone who advocates less anger shouldn't be trying to rile people up.  It amuses me to watch you pop up here and there and push people's buttons, as I'm sure it amuses you. My amusement however stems from the knowledge that while you do indeed succeed in riling up someone here and there, most of us here know enough by know from our dealings with you to just ignore you. In other words, you're wasting your time and energy by your intentionally provocative posts, and no one really cares.  You may not have a lot of anger in your life, but your actions and words speak volumes about the lack of true happiness. May you find it. . .elsewhere.
> 
> **************************************************************
> 
> Short, Sweet and to the point.....right on target. You ROCK MJ!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> It is my understanding that they ARE legal in PA. Sad.........I'd love to take their guns and stick em' where the sun don't shine............and pull the trigger.


you go girl!...I could'nt help but lol when I read this, it made my day....and of course I knew you did not mean it literally....who would:


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think we all agree that this pigeon shoot stuff these clubs do is down right barbaric...my husband and I hunt...there I said it....I asked him if he ever heard of this and he said no and that it sounded unethical and stupid. i know this is not about pro/hunt or non/hunt, and not one thing said here affends me. the question is is it right or wrong? common sense tells me it is wrong. non emotional plaine common sense....clubs like this one give hunters a bad name and thats a shame.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

spirit wings said:


> I think we all agree that this pigeon shoot stuff these clubs do is down right barbaric...my husband and I hunt...there I said it....I asked him if he ever heard of this and he said no and that it sounded unethical and stupid. i know this is not about pro/hunt or non/hunt, and not one thing said here affends me. the question is is it right or wrong? common sense tells me it is wrong. non emotional plaine common sense....clubs like this one give hunters a bad name and thats a shame.


That's fine. I know that lots of people here do things that others don't "like" or "agree" with.......it's all a personal choice and no one can force their views or beliefs on others.......but this arranged and methodical way to shoot an animal is just wrong, wrong, wrong......no matter how you look at it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How do they find sport in something like that? They ought to give the birds guns and make it even. All it is, is cruelty.


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

*If the HSUS says it, don't trust it!*

That the "Humane Society of the US" should accuse a small private enterprise of selling pigeons to a dealer who resells them to someone else, or does whatever with them is a crime in itself. I, for one dont believe anything the HSUS says, and find most of what they do to be borderline criminal.
How is a small family run store going to know to what purpose these birds are going to be used. They stay in business to make a profit, whether by selling birds or feed or suppkies to pigeon enthusiasts and they are a legitimate and upright business. As a legitimate business, they are not required, nor would they have reason to ask what the customer is going to use these birds for. I mean, should a rental car agency be held responsible for renting a car that is later used in a bank robbery two states away? I think not.

What is really going on is the HSUS is trying to drive another small business out of existence by smearing it with an overly broad brush. Tha is their MO.
The real purpose of the HSUS is to end all businesses dealing with animals and to eventually end animal ownership and use completely! 
They are a radical animal-rights organization that seeks to abolish circuses, rodeos, backyard breeders, as well as cattle feed lots, dairys, egg producers, and so on.

Further they are NOT THE HUMANE SOCIETY, they only stole the name from the real Humane Society, which is not national, but is a loose confederation of local animal shelters and animal rescue organizations worldwide. The HSUS has no interest in that, but because of its falacious name and its use of erroneous publicity to solicit donations from an unwitting public.

Their 100+ million dollar annual budget (Mostly donated) goes primarily for "administrative costs" and lobbyists at state and federal levels! Very little if any ends up actually being used to HELP animals....

Further, a large percentage of the "executives" and "officials" of HSUS are people who have moved "UP" from PETA, and that bunch is even worse!

Reader, you don't have to believe me on this....LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF!
A good place to start is the National Animal Interest Association, and there are several othe websites who will give you the straight scoop on all of these animal rights wackos.


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

*All the little quotes at the end of your posts and replies....*

*Genesis 1:28 *"And God blessed them. and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing moveth upon the earth."

I believe this. 

Sometimes, however, I wish that God had set forth a set of detailed instructions of what the word "dominion" implied......


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

risingstarfans said:


> *Genesis 1:28 *"And God blessed them. and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing moveth upon the earth."
> 
> I believe this.
> 
> Sometimes, however, I wish that God had set forth a set of detailed instructions of what the word "dominion" implied......


I once heard a Bible scholar define dominion as ' to take car of '. I believe for most, they define it as 'to have power over'. I like the first definition the best.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2008)

risingstarfans said:


> *Genesis 1:28 *"And God blessed them. and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing moveth upon the earth."
> 
> I believe this.
> 
> Sometimes, however, I wish that God had set forth a set of detailed instructions of what the word "dominion" implied......


So...do you feel people should be free to do whatever they want to an animal? 

I googled "National Animal Interest Association" and the closest I could find was National Animal Interest Alliance and this description:

National Animal Interest Alliance (NAIA) is an American lobby group for commercial animal interests involving agribusiness, biomedical research, entertainment, blood sports and breeding. Their primary agenda appears to be protecting their interests. These include: financial interests, legislation and public perception related to animal agribusiness, hunting, fishing, trapping, fur ranching, blood sports, companion animal breeding and entertainment (rodeo, circus, etc.) as well as legislation, grant monies and tenures dependent on biomedical and cosmetics testing and research using animals.

Now I see where you're coming from


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just some food for thought .. what IF you had to microchip every bird and animal that you own and report to the government on each and every one ..

Look a little further .. you will find that we narrowly escaped this happening to all of us.

Terry


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

sasha008 said:


> So...do you feel people should be free to do whatever they want to an animal?
> 
> I googled "National Animal Interest Association" and the closest I could find was National Animal Interest Alliance and this description:
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right. I like all kinds of meat for my dinner table and an omelet for breakfast. I think that all unregistered dogs and cats should be neutered. I believe that hunting and fishing are legitimaten sports when practiced wisely. I wear leather shoes. I have a couple of wool suits in my closet. My late wife had a couple alpaca sweaters and a fur coat. I enjoy going to rodeos. I like to take my grandchildren to the zoo and the circus. I raise fantail pigeons and love to take them to shows and compete with others who do the same. 
I love to hear the sound of songbirds in the morning, and to watch the native quail that frequent my yard. I deplore cruelty to any animal just as much as anyone. More than a lot of people. I think that limited hunting is good for the habitat of the hunted animals, as starvation because of overpopulation can be a lot more cruel than a quick death, but I deplore the small minority that kill and then leave a dead animal to rot.

*FURTHERMORE* 


I salute the flag and stand at attention when the National Anthm is played.
I served my country for four years AS A VOLUNTEER. The NAIA seeks to protect the interests tha help fuel much of the nations economy, puts food in our mouthes and clothes on our backs. 
I believe that human beings are created equal in the sight of God, and yes, he gave us dominion over animals to use....wisely. 
But I do not believe that animals have the same rights as humans. There is NOT ONE animal that has the same intelligence as an average fifteen year old downs syndrome child, and I have seen several that were very intelligent by animal standards. Animals do have the right to not be treated with cruelty, and it is humans that give them that right, certainly not other animals.
And yes, I have seen several instances where animals HAVE ENGAGED IN BLOOD SPORT!!!! Think of a racoon that invaded my loft in 1953, killing all twenty pigeons and leaving all but two carcasses behind. Watch a cat torment a live mouse for hours. 

What would you do? Grant animals citizenship? Give them free public educations? Hey, if your'e going to grant them rights, go all the way! 
God made them for us to use, to own, or to let roam free as WE SO CHOOSE.
God also gave humans the ability to do stupid things and still survive. Animals cannot even handle that right, with or without humans!

NOW YOU KNOW WHERE I AM COMING FROM


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

This site's threads are NOT going to be hijacked by people from either side of the AR fence.

This is a pigeon advocacy site and it will stay that way.

If people want to get on their soap boxes on other issues, then they can do so on sites related to those issues - if they can be bothered - but please do not use pigeon issues as a way of arguing about the 'evils' of various organizations in general.

*JUST CAN IT!!!*​
John


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

John_D said:


> This site's threads are NOT going to be hijacked by people from either side of the AR fence.
> 
> This is a pigeon advocacy site and it will stay that way.
> 
> ...



John, I understand your concern for thie direction some of these posts take from time to time. I do not want to engage in flame wars, I only want people to hear the truth. After that, it is up to them. But my last post on this thread trys to set the record straight for everyone to see, and is my public statement of some of my beliefs and values to another persons insinuations and implications. If they don't believe the way I do, that is their choice, and I respect it. 
When I rail against certain organizations, I ring a bell of warning! Beware means be aware. It doesn't mean be frightful OR angry. Just be aware. I also believe that everyone has the right to be wrong, and I will fight to the death if need be, to defend that right. 
I did not get personal, the other party did. I defended myself in the only way possible. 

It says "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free".
Truth is a virus. Once thorougly infected, you are cured.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

risingstarfans said:


> John, I understand your concern for thie direction some of these posts take from time to time. I do not want to engage in flame wars, I only want people to hear the truth. After that, it is up to them. But my last post on this thread trys to set the record straight for everyone to see, and is my public statement of some of my beliefs and values to another persons insinuations and implications. If they don't believe the way I do, that is their choice, and I respect it.
> When I rail against certain organizations, I ring a bell of warning! Beware means be aware. It doesn't mean be frightful OR angry. Just be aware. I also believe that everyone has the right to be wrong, and I will fight to the death if need be, to defend that right.
> I did not get personal, the other party did. I defended myself in the only way possible.
> 
> ...


Please be aware that many of us feel the same way about 'the truth shall make one free', although our opinion of truth is not the same as yours. We feel just as strongly as you do about truth as we see it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

so what ever happend to the pigeon vendor? this thread was started in like ..july....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> so what ever happend to the pigeon vendor? this thread was started in like ..july....


Great question!
I don't know. Maybe TheSnipes does.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

risingstarfans said:


> ......John, I understand your concern for thie direction some of these posts take from time to time. I do not want to engage in flame wars, I only want people to hear the truth......
> 
> It says "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free".
> Truth is a virus. Once thorougly infected, you are cured.


 Of course everyone has an opinion on what the "Truth Is"....and as John was wearing his moderator hat...and told you to "Can It"...that is exactly what you are expected to do. When you start waving the flag and drawing lines in the sand....you are inflaming the situation.


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