# To treat or not to treat



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey Guys, I am raising some young racers at the moment, Have around 13 so far, All really healthy and weaned. The second round are about 15 days old now and I have noticed one of the birds has the tiniest little bit of canker, the bird and its parents look healthy and the parents do not show any canker in their throats at all nor do they have any staining around the beaks from feeding.

I am wondering, For such a little amount should I give the bird a metrinadazole tablet or leave its immune system to deal with it, I will watch closely and as soon as it looks bad I will treat but at this stage it is the tiniest little amount, I am giving heaps of supplements, Minerals and grits so am hoping with this and the antibodies from the parents the youngin should get over it on its own. I hate treating birds when it is not neccesary so am unsure what to do here.

I was vry busy three days ago and left some food out all day for them which I do not usually do and I wonder if this has allowed the canker to show itself slightly, dirty food etc. that was a once in a blue moon occurence so the cleanliness of the losts are 100% at the moment apart from that one day.

Thanks in advance


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## napcinco05 (May 10, 2011)

are you sure it is really canker or probably just digested pea that doesn't go right away. I had that experience before. I panicked. I was about to go to san francinsco when i noticed it and have to leave the bird for 3 days without meds coz the canker medication did not come yet. I got back. Checked on the throat and the lesion was gone. I'm also not fond of treating birds for prophylaxis. I believe when an infection strikes them it'll be harder to treat coz bacteria has more resistance to it.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey, thanks for your response, With no meds on hand I would panick too I think, Luckily I have a good unused stash of canker meds as I knew I may need it for racing. Yes it is canker but only the smallest amount in the top of the throat. I have seen it before like this back before I learnt and developed a good cleaning regime.

My flock of about 100 birds are thriving at the moment, Not a single bird sits hunched, they are all flying well and look great and I would not have picked up on this bird having canker had I not checked all the babies throats. The rest were clear.

I am wondering I guess whether this is part of the natural process of developing an immunity to such things hence my hesitation to treat. If the birds themselves were looking sick or showing signs I would treat without a doubt and even with the show birds I would treat but am new to racing so am asking the racing guys what they think about this as a long term thing, Will treating the bird now before its neccesary hinder its immunity come race season?


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## napcinco05 (May 10, 2011)

I'm fairly new too. I'm just gonna have my first year racing this coming yb season which is 2 weeks from now. I have only treated my birds once for respiratory when 1 bird showed signs of coughing. I isolated it right away and treated the flock. Some birds which did not develop well, I did not take time to take care of it. I just culled it right away. but in my opinion if the bird is showing signs of sickness but is still strong, that's the time you step in and treat them. You don't want to treat them when it's too late. I'm a nurse and i observed that doctors in the hospital doesn't treat patients if they are asymptomatic. Patients who have been treated with different kind of medications eventually developed super infections which are harder to treat.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks - Makes sense.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

Canker is caused by a microscopic single-celled organism too small for you to see with the naked eye so all you are seeing is the growths or lesions caused by the trichomoniasis "bug". If it is for sure canker in the baby's throat then for sure the parents are carrying the canker organisms and are passing it to the young. It just doesn't pop up by itself in a baby because the young babies aren't drinking from the waterers yet where it's usually spread among the adults, so the babies in the nest get it from being fed by the parents.

Many, many adult pigeons are carrying numbers of canker causing organisms but they develop a sort of immunity to them and aren't visibly affected unless the problem is really big. However, it can be a factor in losing race form and you won't see outward signs, that is why many flyers treat routinely during race season -- the race team is exposed to canker organisms all the time with shared waterers on shipping trucks, drinking from puddles or ponds on the way home, etc. The babies in the nest and the newly weaned youngsters are always the most likely to show the outward signs of canker in small quantities and it can be dangerous to them if left untreated. If it were my birds I would for sure treat your entire breeding pen for canker, in fact it's a good thing to treat for routinely before breeding season and a few months in before any very hot weather starts because that is also a factor in causing the flare up of any canker problems. Just treat at proper dosage for the product you use and you should be fine. Many are safe to use during breeding season with no bad effects on eggs or young.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Matt M, I agree 100% and I also have read a lot about the disease and understand the ins and outs, What I was trying to say is that there is no sign whatsoever in the parents or the other birds, Indisputably though they are carrying in small doses.

All the other squabs are incredibly clear looking in their throats and its just this one. I did treat prior to breeding and we are just about to hit our hot period over the next few months so maybe now is time. I have metridanazole tablets and also turbosol aswell as doxycycline on hand so maybe I will look into the best way to go about it using those. I agree that it can be dangerous if let to get out of hand. In my earlier pigeons owning days I had a major outbreak and that kicked me into a new and more scriptulous daily cleaning regime.

I think it sounds like I will do more harm not treating than treating In your opinion?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Any stress can cause the trichomonad level to go up, which causes canker. Even breeding, or the weather becoming hot can do it. It also passes quickly between the birds in a loft. If the baby has it, then the parents trich levels have risen, whether it shows in them or not. I would treat both babies and the parents. Wouldn't hurt to treat the whole loft just to be sure. The young normally build up an immunity to the trich in your loft, but when levels rise and they come down with canker, it will get worse, it isn't going to go away. Treating sooner is easier to get rid of it. If the weather is about to get hot there, I agree that it is a good time to treat anyway.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I agree with Matt and Jay.....treat. Any stress will make it flourish, nip it in the bud


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I can see reasons to try and see if the birds own immunities come through. I admire you're approach in not reaching for a medication right away. With canker though it is a protozoan parasite and because of that is why I would go ahead and treat the bird right from the beginning.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Hey Guys, I am raising some young racers at the moment, Have around 13 so far, All really healthy and weaned. The second round are about 15 days old now and I have noticed one of the birds has the tiniest little bit of canker, the bird and its parents look healthy and the parents do not show any canker in their throats at all nor do they have any staining around the beaks from feeding.
> 
> I am wondering, For such a little amount should I give the bird a metrinadazole tablet or leave its immune system to deal with it, I will watch closely and as soon as it looks bad I will treat but at this stage it is the tiniest little amount, I am giving heaps of supplements, Minerals and grits so am hoping with this and the antibodies from the parents the youngin should get over it on its own. I hate treating birds when it is not neccesary so am unsure what to do here.
> 
> ...


 If you know the disease, and have the cure, what would be the benefit in not treating ?


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

I would put a canker treatment that contained Ronidazole (sp?) in the water for 5 to 7 days.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Evan...canker can be internal and can't be seen by looking in the mouth or throat. There may be more going on with your birds than you can see. Personally, having witnessed the horrors of canker, I would treat them. I would also treat the baby individually, separate him and treat the flock.


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## Whitedove06 (Jul 7, 2009)

My squeaker had canker. (He had the typical foul smelling 'custard' in back of throat) He was in weaning (stress there). Treated him individually with Ronidizole with dropper, and gave flock powder in drinker 5-7 days. Did some supplement feeding. Right as rain now.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Any stress can cause the trichomonad level to go up, which causes canker. Even breeding, or the weather becoming hot can do it. It also passes quickly between the birds in a loft. If the baby has it, then the parents trich levels have risen, whether it shows in them or not. I would treat both babies and the parents. Wouldn't hurt to treat the whole loft just to be sure. The young normally build up an immunity to the trich in your loft, but when levels rise and they come down with canker, it will get worse, it isn't going to go away. Treating sooner is easier to get rid of it. If the weather is about to get hot there, I agree that it is a good time to treat anyway.





Msfreebird said:


> I agree with Matt and Jay.....treat. Any stress will make it flourish, nip it in the bud





spirit wings said:


> I can see reasons to try and see if the birds own immunities come through. I admire you're approach in not reaching for a medication right away. With canker though it is a protozoan parasite and because of that is why I would go ahead and treat the bird right from the beginning.


Thanks guys, I will give an individual dose of metrinadazole (sp) to the young and parents and do the flock over the next few days. Will it hurt retreat the affected squab with turbosol also or should I keep them seperate. Maybe I am complicating things, Maybe I should just put turbosol in all their waters.



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If you know the disease, and have the cure, what would be the benefit in not treating ?


That was my question, Would their be any benefit in letting the birds use its natural immunity to fight the disease. It seems I have my answer from the consensus though.



Granny Smith said:


> I would put a canker treatment that contained Ronidazole (sp?) in the water for 5 to 7 days.


Thanks, Do you know any brand names they have, I must check my turbosol bottle and see whats in that





Charis said:


> Evan...canker can be internal and can't be seen by looking in the mouth or throat. There may be more going on with your birds than you can see. Personally, having witnessed the horrors of canker, I would treat them. I would also treat the baby individually, separate him and treat the flock.


Thanks Charis, Whats Ronidazole come in, Brand names wise.
any opinions on it? 



Whitedove06 said:


> My squeaker had canker. (He had the typical foul smelling 'custard' in back of throat) He was in weaning (stress there). Treated him individually with Ronidizole with dropper, and gave flock powder in drinker 5-7 days. Did some supplement feeding. Right as rain now.


Thanks, There is no major smell in this case. I have been going hard on the supplements too, Hopefully all the good they have done will not be lost with the medication. Still got plenty left so should be able to boost them back quickly.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you get metronidazole [flagyl]?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Canker Medications, from The Australian Pigeon Doctor

1. Dimetradazole - The common brand name here is Emtryl, available as a water-soluble powder. Dimetradazole was the first nitro imidazole available and is still an effective drug, although trichomonad resistance to it in some areas is a problem because it has been used for the longest. It must be used with care as it has a narrow safety margin. Overdose leads to a reversible loss of balance and coordination and, in high doses, death. The medication can interfere with sperm production in cocks, leading to a temporary infertility, and so is not recommended for use during breeding. The usual dose is 1 teaspoon (3 grams) to 4½ - 8 litres of water. Lower dose rates should be used in stock birds feeding youngsters and during hot weather when water intake increases and evaporation occurs from drinkers, increasing the concentration of the medication. 

2. Carnadazole - The common brand name here is Spartrix. It is only available in tablet form. It has a wide safety margin and is very useful for individual bird dosing, particularly youngsters in the nest. The dose is one 10-mg tablet daily.

3. Metronidazole - The common brand name is Flagyl. This is available as a water-soluble syrup and as tablets in a variety of strengths. It is very economical, with the tablets being useful to dose individual birds. Individual birds are given ¼ of a 200-mg Flagyl tablet once daily. Flagyl syrup is water soluble and is given at the dose of 5 - 10 ml per litre but is very sugary and not very palatable to the birds. 

4. Ronidazole - This is available as a water-soluble powder under a number of brand names world-wide, including Ridsol-S, Turbosole, Tricho-Plus and Ronivet. The usual strength used is 10%. The dose at this strength is ½ teaspoon per litre. Weaker preparations are available but the birds need to be treated longer with these. The drug is very bitter so preparations stronger than 10% tend to be unpalatable to the birds. It has a very wide safety margin and is safe to use during breeding, racing and moulting. World-wide, ronidazole is the current medication of choice to treat canker. However, in some countries it is not available for use in pigeons, authorities being concerned that resistant organisms may develop. As the drug is used in food-producing animals such as pigs, its use is reserved for these. 

In any canker-control program, it is often best to rotate between at least two of these medications in order to decrease the chance of a resistant trichomonad strain developing. Currently, ronidazole-based preparations are used as the primary treatment because of their effectiveness and wide safety margin, but it is a good idea to swap to one of the other available drugs every third or fourth treatment.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Charis, Thanks for the info, I put turbosole in all the waters today at a dose rate of 1 teaspoon per 2 litres. It says to do it for 5days, Is that too long? 

I also have metrinadazole tablets, They are called trichozole here. I have used them in the past with great success but it is far to expensive to do 100 birds using the tablets.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Charis, Thanks for the info, I put turbosole in all the waters today at a dose rate of 1 teaspoon per 2 litres. It says to do it for 5days, Is that too long?
> 
> I also have metrinadazole tablets, They are called trichozole here. I have used them in the past with great success but it is far to expensive to do 100 birds using the tablets.


The 'treatment' dose for turbosole (ronidazole) is 1 tsp per gallon of water for 5 days.
If I have a bird with canker, I treat it individually with metronidazole. Then I treat the whole loft with ronidazole in their water.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> The 'treatment' dose for turbosole (ronidazole) is 1 tsp per gallon of water for 5 days.
> If I have a bird with canker, I treat it individually with metronidazole. Then I treat the whole loft with ronidazole in their water.


The bottle I got states 1 teaspoon (3g) per 2 litres so I will go with whats on the bottle.

Do you do the ronidazole on the same day you do the metronidazole?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Evan...it would be a good idea to treat the young pigeon, with canker visible, individually.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Charis, Thanks for the info, I put turbosole in all the waters today at a dose rate of 1 teaspoon per 2 litres. *It says to do it for 5days, Is that too long? *
> 
> I also have metrinadazole tablets, They are called trichozole here. I have used them in the past with great success but it is far to expensive to do 100 birds using the tablets.


No...that isn't too long.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks Charis, Its throat is clear as this morning but I will give it the individual dose to be on the safe side.

Also Waynette - with what you said I made up a slightly more dilute version this morning. I went 1 tsp per 3 litres so half way in between what you have suggested and what the bottle I have states.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You know Evan...you may have a different concentration of the medication.

There may be instructions for chickens on the bottle which is usually higher than the dose for pigeons.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Charis said:


> You know Evan...you may have a different concentration of the medication.
> 
> There may be instructions for chickens on the bottle which is usually higher than the dose for pigeons.


Possible yea about the concentration but this bottle was specifically made for pigeons by colin walker and supplied through the racing pigeon club.


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