# were do grizzles come form



## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

like were and how and is it a breed of pigeon are is it i mix like


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think it's a breed--just a particular trait that some families carry. I have one family line that it occurs in with some regularity. Don't know what your interest in pigeons is (racing, rollers, tumblers, show pigeons... ) but you could acquire a male with that trait easily enough and then you'd have it in your loft.

Pidgey


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Its Genetic*

HI PIGEONMAN 51, Grizzle is a genetic factor that effects color. It is in most pigeon breeds.There a few things you should know about the mating of grizzle.If you mate two grizzles together the young will be much lighter in color and if keep mating grizzle to grizzle you will get to where the look like a white bird, but in fact are still grizzle,thats why some people get a bird showing color from two birds that they thought were pure white. Now if you mate a grizzle to a colored bird you will get one grizzle youngster from this mating. The best color to mate a grizzle to is a blue bar you will get a blue type grizzle which most breeders consider the nicest grizzle color. Go to google and look up pigeon genetics and the grizzle factor. .GEORGE


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

ok than what is a blue bar is it a breed


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

it is the gray bird with the 2 black bars at the end of the wing


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

and what would be the offspring if i paired a grizzle with a blue splash


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, that is a blue bar. They are not a seperate breed. Any breed could be a blue bar.

As for what you'd get...You'd probably end up with a grizzle with a lot of white on it?

This site may help in identifying certain patterns and colors 
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

so if it is a blue bar and a grizzle thin it would be like a medium grizzle


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

it would be a good chance that it would blue type grizzle


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody, try this web site Ron Huntley rare colored pigeons. plenty of pics and very detailed in explaining colors. hope u enjoy it


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

brotherstwoloft said:


> hi everybody, try this web site Ron Huntley rare colored pigeons. plenty of pics and very detailed in explaining colors. hope u enjoy it


Yeah, I love that site. Very usefull
Here's the link so you don't have to go search for it:
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html

And by the way, wild type and blue bar are the same.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

PigeonMan51 said:


> so if it is a blue bar and a grizzle thin it would be like a medium grizzle


The amount of grizzling is mostly based on whether the bird is homozygous or heterozygous for grizzle. Birds that are ****. for grizzle (they carry the grizzle gene twice), will show more white. On the other hand, birds that are het. for grizzle (carries one gene for grizzle), will show more color.
There is also Tiger grizzle, which is where the individual feathers are a solid color, like what most people call mottled. There is undergrizzle too...which you'll sometimes see on the birds wing and tail feathers where the feathers are white with color on the ends as if it were fading into it. (Ron's site give pictures and captions, which make this easier to understand).


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

oo ok so it all depense on the bird


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

How much do you know about genetics? Dark spalsh's and Blue bars are dominant and grizzels and pencils are recessive. red is recessive to gray and black... work out a punit square.


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

genetics no nuthin


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Ok well then if you work cant work out a punit square than You out of luck =( just breed and be happy with the results


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2007)

I rememeber the day a grizzle came down with my pigeon flock when I was very young , it was the first time I had seen one and it was instant love .. that bird became part of my flock and he was like my best buddy and i will never for get how pretty he was


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Matt D. said:


> Ok well then if you work cant work out a punit square than You out of luck =( just breed and be happy with the results


By him saying he doesn't know anything about genetics, I'm hoping he ment pigeon genetics....because...at 15 years old, he should have seen a punit square somewhere before in school. Especially in biology and animal science classes.

I don't even use a punit square when trying to figure out the outcomes of pairs...lol. I think it is often better to just put two good birds together and if you don't like the results, try something else. Color should be the least of your concern unless you are working on breeding specific colors for show or just trying to do some other color related breeding project. I still advise anyone interested in genetics, to join the geneticsforpigeons, and colourpigeons groups on Yahoo. ColourPigeons is strictly for color, while geneticsforpigeons is for anything with pigeon/dove genetics. If you have a question, there is someone that can answer on the first group mentioned (as Colourpigeons isn't very active anymore). Ron Huntley and Frank Mosca are both members, so they are there to help as well as many other people like Paul Gibson.
Links to them (again. I think I posted pretty much the same things in another thread?  ) 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ColourPigeons/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/geneticsforpigeons/


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

yes i mant pigeon genetics


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

PigeonMan51 said:


> yes i mant pigeon genetics


Well typically, all genetics are genetics...pigeons being a bit more complex than some other animals, mainly because there is so many different color variations/patterns...and body shapes...even down to their temperament traits and how they stand. Homer genetics may be different from Roller genetics, like for example: a Birmingham Roller with a white head and wing markings may be called a 'badge', while a homer with this may be called a 'splash'. Many of the terms may vary between breeds but when it comes down to it, genetics are genetics. There are dominant and recessive genes. A bird may carry just one gene for a trait, or it may carry two. Punit squares with pigeons may be a bit confusing, since one pigeon can carry many different things. That's probably why I don't use them...I just go by what is dominant and recessive to certain things, and how a bird will differ if it is ****. or het. for something. Also, I try to remember the sex-linked stuff as well. Like if you put a blue bar cock with a ash red hen, the daughters will be blue and the sons will be red. I've had this sorta happen twice that I can remember. I had a red cock mated to a pied indigo check hen. One of their clutches turned out to be a cream hen and an indigo bar cock. The male was probably carrying dilute, since cream is the dilution of red. 
Some of the things, like dilutes and grizzles, can be found on this expectation chart. If you know the genes the parents are carrying, then you have a WAY better guess of just what you'll get. 
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/expectations.html#P2

If you take your time to read all you can about genetics, you'll get the hang of it. I don't know a whole lot...but I can tell you now...genetics can get kinda...confusing and deep. Like we said, it's probably best to just stick with the basics....and see what you get...
If you want to show, you might be a bit more concerned with genetics as far as color and form. If you want to race, you'll probably be more concerned with keeping speed, distance, shape, and eyesign in your birds. Most of that comes from just looking at the birds and their pedigrees though, so racing is really more trial and error, with good record keeping and common sense.


Okay I am done babbling on about genetics for now! Sorry about that


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

ok cool thanks


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## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

MaryOf Exeter . . . I know what you mean when you say that when it comes to color, different genetic terms are used. I have some "Cream Bar" Turkish Tumblers that if they were Tipplers, would be referred to (color-wise) as "Isabellas".


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Hi PigeonMan51, There is a book on genetics "Breeding and Inheritance" by Axel Sell. This book is easy to read and undrestand. Most pigeon supply houses carry it I know that JEDDS carries it.It cost about 58dollars. You could check with your local librarytheymay have one that you could check out. The book explains the most important principles of heredity and demonstrates with simple example show how these principles can be used in various breeding programs. .GEORGE


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## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Punit Square! Is that in Russia? And I thought they came from Grizzelland  


Sorry, I could resist.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jack1747 said:


> Punit Square! Is that in Russia? And I thought they came from Grizzelland
> 
> 
> Sorry, I could resist.


 *LOL LOL* GEORGE


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

Matt D. said:


> How much do you know about genetics? Dark spalsh's and Blue bars are dominant and grizzels and pencils are recessive. red is recessive to gray and black... work out a punit square.


You are wrong on a number of facts here..GRIZZLE is not a recessive trait. It is dominant and only requires 1 gene from 1 parent to express itself within offspring. Bar (brown, blue, ash red) is recessive to check and t pattern but is dominant to barless, so to say that a blue bar is dominant, you would have to ask yourself...dominant to what and the answer would be brown barless, brown bar or blue barless. Red is NOT recessive to gray (blue) or black (blue spread) unless it is RECESSIVE RED, where the entire body, flights and tail of the bird are a solid red colour. ASH RED, which is the typical red colour we see in homers etc., with ashy coloured flights and tail, is the dominant colour in the pigeon world. It goes in this order from dominant to recessive............ ASH RED, BLUE, BROWN...and by the way it's called a PUNNET SQUARE.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Grizzled said:


> You are wrong on a number of facts here..GRIZZLE is not a recessive trait. It is dominant and only requires 1 gene from 1 parent to express itself within offspring. Bar (brown, blue, ash red) is recessive to check and t pattern but is dominant to barless, so to say that a blue bar is dominant, you would have to ask yourself...dominant to what and the answer would be brown barless, brown bar or blue barless. Red is NOT recessive to gray (blue) or black (blue spread) unless it is RECESSIVE RED, where the entire body, flights and tail of the bird are a solid red colour. ASH RED, which is the typical red colour we see in homers etc., with ashy coloured flights and tail, is the dominant colour in the pigeon world. It goes in this order from dominant to recessive............ ASH RED, BLUE, BROWN*...and by the way it's called a PUNNET SQUARE*.


I knew something didn't look right! lol


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## PigeonMan51 (Dec 14, 2007)

george simon said:


> Hi PigeonMan51, There is a book on genetics "Breeding and Inheritance" by Axel Sell. This book is easy to read and undrestand. Most pigeon supply houses carry it I know that JEDDS carries it.It cost about 58dollars. You could check with your local librarytheymay have one that you could check out. The book explains the most important principles of heredity and demonstrates with simple example show how these principles can be used in various breeding programs. .GEORGE


ok cool im going to look for it


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