# Cool Colored Rollers



## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

Here's a rare, true mosaic.

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687439432747_8640800_64561484_1100713_n.jpg

Another mosaic
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687439707197_8640800_64561495_6838825_n.jpg

Another mosaic
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687439806997_8640800_64561497_4442118_n.jpg

Toy and Frill Stencil
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687438290037_8640800_64561447_7381928_n.jpg

Here's a pencil below
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687437142337_8640800_64561415_8173346_n.jpg

Reduced White bar and spead pencil
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687440680247_8640800_64561525_8043429_n.jpg

Reduced Blue Lace
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687441528547_8640800_64561553_2275262_n.jpg

Pencil w/lacing
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687441084437_8640800_64561540_2401578_n.jpg

Toy Stencil
http://hphotos-iad1.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/300804_10100687445500587_8640800_64561671_2821643_n.jpg

Toy Stencil
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687445405777_8640800_64561669_5806926_n.jpg


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## CarloSantoro (Jun 22, 2011)

those mosaic 's are cool nice birds


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The yellow/blue mosaic, was it a cockbird? I'm thinking some of these kinds of mosaics, where you have ash-red/blue and ash-yellow/blue could just be extreme flecking in cockbirds carrying the other color.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

oh they are some PRETTY BIRDS can i have a few


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The yellow/blue mosaic, was it a cockbird? I'm thinking some of these kinds of mosaics, where you have ash-red/blue and ash-yellow/blue could just be extreme flecking in cockbirds carrying the other color.


These are not my birds but the mosaics are infact mosaics. These birds belong to a friend of mine who's understanding of genetics is probably as good as anyone here in the states. 


horseart4u said:


> oh they are some PRETTY BIRDS can i have a few


Again, not mine lol. Just a friend of mine. Awesome rollers...great collers that still roll.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

2y4life said:


> Toy Stencil
> http://hphotos-iad1.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/300804_10100687445500587_8640800_64561671_2821643_n.jpg
> 
> Toy Stencil
> http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...00687445405777_8640800_64561669_5806926_n.jpg


Maybe I'm wrong but for me the first "toy stencil" looks like a kind of kite bronze and the second "toy stencil" looks like Undergrizzle.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

dimerro said:


> Maybe I'm wrong but for me the first "toy stencil" looks like a kind of kite bronze and the second "toy stencil" looks like Undergrizzle.


I would agree with Dina when looking at the birds. Stencil would affect all the patterned areas, which is not the case in these to birds. 

The first seems to be just bronze (which one, I cannot say), and the stencil/pencil on the flights of the second looks a lot like under-grizzle, but since I do not know the exact makeup of the birds, I will defer to the knowledge of the breeder.


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## brentjohnf (Sep 8, 2008)

Are these birds breed for there colors are just random? because that first bird is awsome


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> I would agree with Dina when looking at the birds. Stencil would affect all the patterned areas, which is not the case in these to birds.
> 
> The first seems to be just bronze (which one, I cannot say), and the stencil/pencil on the flights of the second looks a lot like under-grizzle, but since I do not know the exact makeup of the birds, I will defer to the knowledge of the breeder.


I am not the breeder BUT the breeder is a well known man known for his knowledge in genetics so I'm going based off of what he said. Some of them may be carrying certain colors/modifiers and not showing them. I don't understand half of this stuff. I just know my basic colors and that's it. 

Brent, some of the birds were bred for their colors. The mosaics are bred for their color but all the birds do roll


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I also agree with the bronze/undergrizzle statement. Pretty birds though.


Mosaics are supposed to be random mutations, so if he is getting consistant mosaics, he may be breeding something else. The pattern mosaics (as in, half spread, half non-spread) cannot be argued. But I'm still wondering if a lot of these "mosaics" (NOT just his, I mean in general) aren't just extreme flecking. These birds I'm referring to would have to be cockbirds and only be "mosaic" in their color, not pattern. I'm also wondering if the size/amount of flecking in split ash-red cockbirds can be inherited, as some birds have very heavy flecks from the beginning and others you really have to hunt for.


Does the breeder have internet access? He'd be a really good member to have around on the site for genetic discussions  Particularly on his own birds, so we don't have to shoot the messenger, LOL.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

so you think a bird like below could be some kinda of genetic super flecking?


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> so you think a bird like below could be some kinda of genetic super flecking?


 Now that is a magnificent looking bird , love all the pics shared thanks !


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Print Tippler said:


> so you think a bird like below could be some kinda of genetic super flecking?


Yes I do. Especially from lofts with several mosaics being produced. For a "genetic anomally", some people sure do have a lot of them. Which is why I do believe there are true genetic freak mosaics, like the half spread, half non-spreads, etc. And then there may be some kind of crazy flecking "mock-mosaics" like this one. A red bar with very large blue flecks. It is bar on both colors, so it is very possible. I have had birds with large flecks that would, for example:
- Have a blue tail feather that shows the tail band and everything
- On a red check, show a blue check feather because the fleck covered that area

Almonds can also be mistaken for mosaics. There was someone on here that kept producing "mosaics" and they all looked like almonds with large patches of breaks.


Think about it. If you were to reduce the size of that large blue barred patch and the large patch throughout the neck/head, it would look like any other ash-red bar cockbird carrying blue.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

i can see how its a good explanation of it. I mean just look at the bird, it obviously flecking major in other areas. It's kinda like a splash in the way it appears except for obviously its blue.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes I do. Especially from lofts with several mosaics being produced. For a "genetic anomally", some people sure do have a lot of them. Which is why I do believe there are true genetic freak mosaics, like the half spread, half non-spreads, etc. And then there may be some kind of crazy flecking "mock-mosaics" like this one. A red bar with very large blue flecks. It is bar on both colors, so it is very possible. I have had birds with large flecks that would, for example:
> - Have a blue tail feather that shows the tail band and everything
> - On a red check, show a blue check feather because the fleck covered that area
> 
> ...


I agree with Becky, mosaicism CANNOT be inherited, so I also think these mosaics are probably just ash-red split for blue, maybe even some form of almond.

Mosaics are believed to occur when one egg is fertilized by more than one sperm cell, but that is still under debate. What is not under debate is that a red/blue mosaic hen will only produce either red OR blue squabs when mated to a blue bar, NEVER another mosaic.

Of course these birds could be mosaic, but since they are EXTREMELY rare genetic abnormalities, it would be very unlikely that one breeder could have so many.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I will say the first bird in the original post is for sure a true mosaic. The second one is kind of hard to tell what exactly is going on. I see black, maybe brown? And what looks like some kind of yellowy khaki color. That bird could possibly be almond. That would account for the yellowy color, the brownish color, and the black/blue. A mating test will show if it is or isn't almond. If not, then it'd say it was a mosaic (possibly a 3-way just based on what colors I THINK I see in the picture).


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Something I have thought about though. If mosaics are indeed formed by two sperm with one egg....well, naturally that is not supposed to happen. Only one is supposed to fertilize each egg. So I would go out on a limb and say maybe that hen's eggs have something "wrong" with them to allow this to happen. Perhaps that "wrong" thing is genetic or maybe it is environmental. But assuming it may be genetic...that could certainly increase the likelihood of having a couple other mosaics pop up in your loft. But then you would think that every baby that "messed up" hen would have, would be mosaic. But they aren't or we'd probably be looking at a lot more than 3 pictures. Maybe the window for fertilization is a little bigger, to possibly let two in but maybe two don't always get there at the same time  I don't know. Just a lot of thinking out loud.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

It's always been stated and accepted as a fact that mosaics are merely a genetic mutation and an oddity/rarity. What my mentor has been able to do is actually produce a few mosaics. This year, he was able to breed, I think, 5 mosaics and he doesn't breed large numbers. He has about 120 or so rollers ALL TOGETHER.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Which is why we think something else is going on here. That's a pretty good turnout in a year's time.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yeah, 2 in a year would be a surprise. An unknown mutated gene, like a flecking gene gone to the extreme would make more sense (for ash red birds with blue). Breeding tests would have to be done.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

2y4life said:


> It's always been stated and accepted as a fact that mosaics are merely a genetic mutation and an oddity/rarity. What my mentor has been able to do is actually produce a few mosaics. This year, he was able to breed, I think, 5 mosaics and he doesn't breed large numbers. He has about 120 or so rollers ALL TOGETHER.


I agree with Becky that the first is a spread/wild-type mosaic, and I'm definitely not trying to impugn your knowledgeable mentor, in fact I would really love to see his breeding records. He might have cracked some important code that everyone has been struggling with for decades, or he might have stumbled upon a new mutation.

This being said, mosaic (as defined by the genetics experts) is NOT a genetic mutation, but rather a genetic abnormality/anomaly and it is widely accepted on all the genetics websites and books that the condition cannot be inherited. I acknowledge Becky's statement that the cause of the anomaly could be inherited, but sometimes the cause of a physical abnormality is not genetic, but systemic or environmental. The rarity of the egg accepting multiple sperm could be due to sickness, medication, temperature, stress and who knows how many more factors, and if that is the case, would not be heritable.

Dr. Hollander was instrumental in breeding thousands of birds each year while doing his renowned research, and surely he would have been able to figure out this mosaic oddity, which to my knowledge, he did find interesting but could not reproduce.

In short, until the exact genealogy of the birds in question is known, and a scientific study of the matter has been made, I just have to defer to the facts that have been proved scientifically. That is not to say we cannot speculate [that is exactly what this forum is for], since speculation is how theories evolve that need to be tested.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> I agree with Becky that the first is a spread/wild-type mosaic, and I'm definitely not trying to impugn your knowledgeable mentor, in fact I would really love to see his breeding records. He might have cracked some important code that everyone has been struggling with for decades, or he might have stumbled upon a new mutation.
> 
> This being said, mosaic (as defined by the genetics experts) is NOT a genetic mutation, but rather a genetic abnormality/anomaly and it is widely accepted on all the genetics websites and books that the condition cannot be inherited. I acknowledge Becky's statement that the cause of the anomaly could be inherited, but sometimes the cause of a physical abnormality is not genetic, but systemic or environmental. The rarity of the egg accepting multiple sperm could be due to sickness, medication, temperature, stress and who knows how many more factors, and if that is the case, would not be heritable.
> 
> ...


Yes, Dr. Hollander was one of the most famous genetics pigeon men in the world. It was my mistake to say it's a genetic "mutation" but I believe it's when two sperms inseminate the same egg. 

My mentor is James Turner and said he does not quite know what is going on but has said that he is able to produce mosaics now with some consistency. He knew Dr. Hollander personally and gets some of his project stuff from Dal Stone. I'm sure those two names ring a bell for anyone who is interested in pigeon genetics.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Don't rule out somatic crossing overs in heterozygous pigeons.
I bred 2 halfsiders out of 3.


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## buttertup (Oct 16, 2011)

I am in absolute heaven right now, looking at these pics. I love the endless possibilities for my own birds, but as of now I have a tortishell looking hen, a blue bar baldie, two blacks , an ash red and tow grizzles one red, one black, so I imagine I am limited. I use to have years back some lavenders that I do wish I had still. These however are something to the likes that I have never seen. I do wonder about my tortishell looking hen, she has red and black flecking in her, with a full black tail. She also rolls like crazy.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Don't rule out somatic crossing overs in heterozygous pigeons.
> I bred 2 halfsiders out of 3.


Halfsiders? Could you post us some pics please. Not everyone is convinced that all 'mosaics' are genetic chimaeras, but that some other mechanism is at work. If you can reliably breed half-siders, and predict percentages statistically, then you might have found an underlying gene that causes it, otherwise, we still have to assume that is an anomaly which is not heritable.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Halfsider: one side is magpie wing, other side is white flight only. Other pied markings, belly, lower back, badgerface/het.baldhead are symmetrical. Between belly and tail there is a typical assymmetry, which also appears in the parent capucins.
Will try to make photos soon.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Pigeon 1: ash red male

















Pigeon 2: black female

















More:
http://s42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/Henk69/halfsiders/?start=all

Note: the first 2 halfsiders are rightwing white. The color spots between belly and tail are on the same side (red male) or absent (black female).


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

No comments?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> No comments?


'Half-sider', 'oddside', a common pattern amongst pied pigeons.  

Quote from Axell Sell's _Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons_, (page 131):

"Mosaics should not be confused with one-sided pieds which sometimes occur from correct-marked parents."


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Did he have an explanation for it?


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

beautiful


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> Did he have an explanation for it?


He didn't offer an explanation. 

The attached links would suggest the half-sider/oddside pattern can be reproduced with some regularity.

http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/09E04A05.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhjXjldwEpc


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for that. I knew the video but didn't recall he was in Holland.

Note that the shoulder and lower back are also affected by the halfsidedness.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The newest sibling is a left whitewing (the other 2 are right whitewing).


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## scott70 (Feb 22, 2011)

*birds*

If any one can figure this out it will be Mr Turner he is one heck of a nice guy and works realy hard with his birds .When you put those pictures up I thought I had seen those birds before they are some thing else wish I had a few thank you for sharing with us


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The crossing over would make sense for the half siders. We just talked about that in Bio lab a couple weeks ago, LOL.


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## shawn arnold (Nov 9, 2009)

rudolph.est said:


> I agree with Becky, mosaicism CANNOT be inherited, so I also think these mosaics are probably just ash-red split for blue, maybe even some form of almond.
> 
> Mosaics are believed to occur when one egg is fertilized by more than one sperm cell, but that is still under debate. What is not under debate is that a red/blue mosaic hen will only produce either red OR blue squabs when mated to a blue bar, NEVER another mosaic.
> 
> Of course these birds could be mosaic, but since they are EXTREMELY rare genetic abnormalities, it would be very unlikely that one breeder could have so many.


I also know the man who breed these birds.I also fly his family of rollers.I have birds that I'm breeding that he hand selected from his kit box. All these mosaics are out of one pair. And a father daughter pairing. This breeder has forgot more about color and genetics than 99% of us will ever know. Yes he does breed for color but best belive his birds roll or they dont stay on his property. Shawn


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

shawn arnold said:


> All these mosaics are out of one pair. And a father daughter pairing. This breeder has forgot more about color and genetics than 99% of us will ever know.


If these birds are all from one pair, they are not mosaics, if the produce mosaic offspring they aren't mosaics either. The scientific definition of the name does not allow for mosaicism to be inherited! Mosaics CANNOT reliably breed mosaics (at least not as defined by classical genetics alone).

Sticking to definitions and repeatable results are the defining factors of a scientific study of genetics. The breeder might know more about the birds he breeds than anyone else, but that does not mean that he breeds mosaics as the word was defined by Dr. Hollander.

I do not mean to start a flame war, but it seems I make the same point in reply to the same arguments from the other members every time. I just want to make clear the difference between what is scientifically provable, and what people believe to be true. These two things are not always the same.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

shawn arnold said:


> I also know the man who breed these birds.I also fly his family of rollers.I have birds that I'm breeding that he hand selected from his kit box. All these mosaics are out of one pair. And a father daughter pairing. This breeder has forgot more about color and genetics than 99% of us will ever know. Yes he does breed for color but best belive his birds roll or they dont stay on his property. Shawn


Shawn, people said it couldn't be done but he's on the verge of proving that maybe it can be done. He knew Dr. W.F. Hollander quite well and his understanding of genetics, especially with rollers is at the very top.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

What Rudolph is saying, is that the term mosaic is applied to genetic freaks. If what you are reproducing looks like a mosaic - fine. But the birds cannot be called mosaics because they are not by definition. They are something else. Mock mosaics.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

but not less interesting i.m.o.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> so you think a bird like below could be some kinda of genetic super flecking?


Defenitly agree also wtih becky, true mosaics are too rare to be popping up frequently


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Looking the 'super flecked' bird, the areas that look like they are pure blue, are not actually so. There is definitely some red in the blue feathers here and there. This could be due to some gene that causes 'super flecking', or maybe something related to almond, but is probably not mosaic. A true mosaic cannot have one feather with multiple colors (ash-red and blue).


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

rudolph.est said:


> Looking the 'super flecked' bird, the areas that look like they are pure blue, are not actually so. There is definitely some red in the blue feathers here and there. This could be due to some gene that causes 'super flecking', or maybe something related to almond, but is probably not mosaic. A true mosaic cannot have one feather with multiple colors (ash-red and blue).


That is a good observation and I did not realize that about mosaics. But now that I think about it, that makes sense from the mosaics I have seen!


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

A mosaic can have anything a non mosaic can have. So if a pigeon can have one feather with multiple colors (ash-red and blue), so can a mosaic. But another phenomenon would be to blame...


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