# Cynthia



## Guest (Feb 1, 2007)

I hope I'm not offending anyone by addressing this one to you but you are the acknowledged expert with PMV. I had been noticing one particular bird that is a member of the flock that I take care of. He flew well but when he came down to eat, his head cocked a little to one side and that is the way he also angled his head to eat. Also, his head had very small tremors and you have to look very closely to observe them. Now that he is up with me, he holds his head down a little bit. His droppings are pretty good and the only other symptom is that he sleeps quite a bit during the day. He's not walking around in circles. When I picked him up, he had been eating and eating or so it seemed but when I felt his crop, there was barely anything in it. He does the same thing up here too; rips into the food bowl but doesn't swallow much.
The bottom line question; Is this PMV or a concussion? Do you think the excessive sleeping is more of a sign that this is concussion?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pigeon Person,

Jules has more experience than I have now, but recently I have had a few in the very early stages and the symptoms that you describe sound very typical of PMV. They tend to sleep a lot. 

Within a week you will be able to tell but all the pigeons with nervous symptoms that I have found turned out to have PMV, I have never had one with concussion.

Today I was watching the pigoen with suspected ornithosis. From the beginning she has moved her head oddly, not in a way a way I have seen before. Then I noticed that although she pecked a lot at the seed she didn't pick much up. Now I am wondering whether what I wass seeing was the respiratory stage of PMV. Either way, she is in for a long stay.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got a bird in with respiratory symptoms right now. I actually haven't seen that very much. The prevalent symptom is the rapid breathing. You can't hear any rattles but there is a "swish-click" sound if you put her beak right up to your ear. The "swish" is the exhale and the "click" is the switch from exhale to inhale. The count on the breaths is running at 60 breaths per minute. I started her on Baytril last night and I'm basing the possibility of changing her over to a Tetracycline on whether she responds within 48 hours by way of slowing down on the breathing rate. By the time I get home tonight, she'll have had 24 hours on Baytril. There is no discernible eye discharge or symptom. At lunchtime, she was running 58 but that's not enough of a difference to consider. This one's kinda' new to me so this is the plan that I've come up with on the fly.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks, Cynthia.
I'll just have to support the bird and see what happens. I thought that the excessive sleeping would tip the balance in favor of a concussion but it's a symptom of both conditions.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2007)

Pidgey,
Well, as you know, PMV starts with a respiratory infection. How are the droppings?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Kinda' wet but not in the way that PMV is said to be. We don't see a version of PMV here like y'all get. There are stories in the racing crowd about it getting a loft or two but I've never seen anything like it in the feral birds. The vets have told me that the strain we've got mostly hits the kidneys and you virtually never see the torticollis. The vets rarely get to see the racers' birds because they usually do all their own medicating.

Anyhow, she's throttling down--she's down to 44 breaths per minute at this point. She acts like she's feeling better, too. The biggest reason that I brought that up was because I'm beginning to think that it's a good index for respiratory treatment. If you're medicating and nothing's changing or it's getting worse, it's time to consider shifting strategies. In this particular case, it appears to be responding to treatment. But those are quantifiable results. I've have a few birds that the breathing got faster and faster and faster at the end. I imagine you've seen that before too. This is just a very simple way of tracking what's going on. Or, rather, being able to chart it.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2007)

Pidgey,
Watch out for Paratyphoid because gaping and rapid breathing are symptoms.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Now, that is one that I do get to see plenty of around here. I've had a few Paratyphoid boil pigeons. I haven't seen any gaping though. This bird's getting Baytril so that's the right stuff for that disease.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have never seen the respiratory symptoms before, even in pigeons that have only shown the nervous symptoms after a week in isolation, but the symptoms are a reaction to the virus entering the body and can include conjunctivitis. But from what I read the symptoms are so mild that even the fancier misses them in the loft. The only reason that I think the one that could have ornithosis may have PMV is the way she moves her head and fails to pick up seed, but the conjunctivitis may have harmed her eyesight.

It is when I see more than one symptom that is typical of PMV that I say "Aha!". Noele arrived with the very watery poops, then 8 days days later developed other symptoms like pecking and missing, staggering and holding her head slightly cocked. She has never walked in circles or "stargazed.

BTW I find it very difficult to release pigeons and I think that naming them makes it all the more difficult, so I am experimenting with not giving them names. Unfortunately I have picked up 6 in just over a week and having 6 unnamed pigeons makes it difficult to identify them in posts, specially when 4 of them have canker.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That bird I mentioned is down in the 30's now (breaths per minute) so we're lookin' a whole lot better.

You know, I did get a bird from a local vet in the middle of October who did have some kinds of symptoms reminiscent of PMV. It was said that the bird was found in the yard of a lady who feeds them and it couldn't fly more than knee-high. It was taken to her favorite vet (down the street from me not a half-mile) and they kept it for a week and then called me. I was on the way to Bonaire at the time so I talked with 'em from San Juan and told them I'd get it a week and a half later. When I got the bird, it ate fine, pooped fine, no breathing problems BUT it had a tendency to overdo it on the motor control. It couldn't fly worth a crap without crashing, seed eating was too forceful (no finesse at all). It stayed that way for many weeks. I kept it isolated for about six weeks and it finally got to where it could fly decently and everything else. I can still see some vague symptoms including occasional walking in circles for three to eight revs or so but it's doing well out in the loft now. That's about the closest thing to PMV as described that I've ever seen.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> * *I have never seen the respiratory symptoms before,* even in pigeons that have only shown the nervous symptoms after a week in isolation, but the symptoms are a reaction to the virus entering the body and can include conjunctivitis. But from what I read the symptoms are so mild that even the fancier misses them in the loft. The only reason that I think the one that could have ornithosis may have PMV is the way she moves her head and fails to pick up seed, but the conjunctivitis may have harmed her eyesight.
> 
> It is when I see more than one symptom that is typical of PMV that I say "Aha!". Noele arrived with the very watery poops, then 8 days days later developed other symptoms like pecking and missing, staggering and holding her head slightly cocked. She has never walked in circles or "stargazed.
> 
> Cynthia


* I haven't either.

The symptoms that the suspected PMV pigeons I have dealt with were 'centeral nervous system' related. They didn't appear to have any respiratory issues but did display the classic PMV symptoms.

That's not to say PMV doesn't affect the respiratory system, but maybe doesn't necessarily 'start' as a respiratory infection. 
If this were the case, wouldn't all PMV pigeon have some type of respiratory symptoms, in addition to the familiar PMV symptoms?

These are just a few thoughts I'm pondering. 
Any other thoughts are most welcome.  

Cindy


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2007)

I don't know what to say about this. Nothing is really fixed in stone. I've had birds up here that gave out literally, one sneeze and the next day, they were walking around in circles. Birds that are well into the virus, don't show respiratory signs and yet, I've read that it can many times start with a respiratory illness. So what happened to the respiratory distress? I suppose it all depends on what part of the brain the virus hits. 

Then you can have a bird with an inner ear infection, paratyphod of the brain or a concussion and they all show the same symptoms of PMV. This is really a very difficult area and unless one takes a bird for blood tests to find out what is really going on, diagnosing becomes an art rather than a science. I'm not even sure if you can get a diagnosis of PMV from a blood test. Is the science advanced enough that PMV antibodies can be extracted from the blood?

Cynthia had mentioned that giving an antibiotic can negatively affect the brain lesions in a PMV bird so if the bird I have up here now has brain paratyphoid or an inner ear infection, I'm doing the wrong thing by withholding treatment. So the white cell count is elevated. So what? It could be from inflammation and not infection so where does that leave you? Back to square one.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This published chunk of the Big Book details both ND and PMV. Its layout is a bit confusing but the first part is mostly about paramyxovirudae and then about ND and then it gets into the PMV variants beginning with "PMV-1 Pigeon" (about 70% down the page). It mentions specifically: "Dyspnea, which is common with ND, does not occur" in PMV-1 Pigeon.

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

You couldn't rule out a concurrent infection though.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, pigeonperson, we might be getting some confusion out of the semantics of the thing. Theoretically, if a bird got inoculated to the disease through airborne particles, I imagine that it could easily make a day's irritation of the infection site. Some folks might not consider that equivalent to "respiratory distress" though. I don't usually use that term unless a bird's doggone near going cyanotic trying to get enough oxygen.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Cynthia had mentioned that giving an antibiotic can negatively affect the brain lesions


Actually what Vindevogel and Duchatel said was_ "We should be on our guard against pigeon-fanciers who empirically stuff their pigeons with drugs. Far from curing them, they intensify the lesions of the gastro-intestinal tract. the liver and the kidneys and aggravate the course of the disease."_



> Theoretically, if a bird got inoculated to the disease through airborne particles, I imagine that it could easily make a day's irritation of the infection site.


The virus can be pneumotropic (when the virus prefers to multiply in the cells of the respiratory system) , viscerotropic (multiplication in the cells of the gastro-intestinal system is preferred) and neurotropic (prefers to multiply in the cells of the nervous system). If the strain is only slightly pneumotropic then the respiratory and ocular symptoms would be almost unnoticeable, the severity of the symptoms depends on the number of cells destroyed. The virus persists for up to 4 weeks in the respiratory system.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2007)

Pidgey,
You might very well be right about the semantics. I went to the 'lesser' version of the book and here is what it also states as illnesses showing similar symptoms:


chlamydiosis (meningitis), salmonellosis (encephalitis purulenta) encephalomalacia, lead toxicity and calcium deficiencies.

Well, the first thing I did was give this bird a whopping dose of calcium but just once. If it's calcium deficiency, it would have helped. Also, calcium can chelate lead. If it were chlamydia, I would see not only respiratory distress but liver involvement but the droppings look pretty good. They're a little on the watery side but just a little. The color is good and the urates are white. There's no yellow cast at all.

Encephalomalacia? en·ceph·a·lo·ma·la·ci·a (ĕn-sĕf'ə-lō-mə-lā'shē-ə, -shə)
n.
Softening of brain tissue, usually caused by vascular insufficiency or degenerative changes. Also called cerebromalacia.

If it's that, forget about it. Dead bird walking.

As far as paratyphoid, do you think I should start Baytril? Personally, if it weren't for what Cynthia had said about it, I don't think I have anything to lose but what do you think?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I certainly don't have any experience dealing with PMV. Unfortunately, it's usually a guessing game because there are bacterial diseases that can cause extremely similar symptoms. We've had spirited discussions on here before about that. There is the reference that's already been brought up about antibiotics intensifying lesions caused by PMV. 

On the other hand, if the cause of the symptoms is of bacterial origin then antibiotics would help. Kathleen in LA has that bird, Lullaby, who began to demonstrate PMV-like symptoms and her vet did prescribe an anti-canker as well as Baytril. The bird got through the neurological symptoms in what you'd think was record time for PMV and during the course of the meds. Kinda' suspicious, huh?

Unfortunately, we don't have an acid test for PMV (a practical one that is easily available to all of us and cheap) so it still comes down to making imperfect guesses. I'd always heard from my local vets that they use the symptom of a lot of greenish liquid in the stools being their local indication that a neurological presentation that we'd normally attribute to PMV was, in fact, PMV. Without that, I think they usually lean towards a bacterial cause but that is, apparently, the criteria for this area.

One of the things that I've kinda' gotten as an impression is also the idea that while the PMV virus may exist in reservoir with the feral population, it usually rears its ugly head in dense populations due to concentration in the environment. That's often a loft situation around here but it's also possible that you might have a tendency to see it (if that's what it is) due to The City and what that might allow. Most of my wild birds live in pretty airy situations (underpasses) and we don't have a lot of derelict buildings around here but you might. And there might be huge populations in such cases concentrating the stuff like a nightmare. I think things like that might be the difference between what I normally see and what you might.

That said, I honestly don't know what I do in your case with your bird. I'd probably decide based on what had worked best for me for years (your own experience). Failing that, I'd probably give the antibiotics a shot if there was no indication by way of symptoms of enteritis (catarrhal diarrhea), liver (biliverdinuria) or kidney problems (polyuria/polydipsia with lots of greenish liquid).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

After reading your first post on this thread again, the first thing that comes to mind is "vestibular disease". That's a typical cause for "head-tilt" but there are an awful lot of possible reasons why. My bird YoYo had a head tilt for his entire life (a bit over a year) with quasi-epileptic episodes. I've always believed that I arrested a canker lesion that had invaded the cervicocephalic air sac and had almost gotten to his brain. That's possible. I've even got pictures of an autopsy (I'm beginning to hate the word "necropsy" since I think of my birds more as people) performed on a pigeon where they cut the top of the cranium away and you could clearly see the necrotic tissue there in the lower posterior quadrant. I just haven't been able to bring myself to perform an autopsy on YoYo, yet. I have kept him in the freezer. I can't even think of him without getting a lump in my throat. I think even Unie secretly misses him.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Pigeon Person, I am curious. You stated that you had nursed 8 pigeons with PMV. How did you determine that those pigeons had PMV and not salmonellosis, concussion etc?

Cynthia


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2007)

Cynthia,
Most of them had varying but copious amounts of urine, constipation and tortillosis, three sure signs of PMV so I assumed that's what it was. (The problem is that it's all assumption.) This one has me stumped. It's a little of this and a little of that with nothing definitive. Today, I caught him preening for what that is worth but it's the first time so maybe he's a bit better. 
Cynthia, do you have anything in writing on the web about not using antibiotics when there is PMV? I don't want you to be put on the spot so if you don't have anything, just say so. I would like to know more about this aspect. The reason is that a family of rats are living in close proximity to the only place I can feed my flock and I did have to treat one bird with bloody diarrhea recently so I'm just not sure what this bird has. There are too many variables going on.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got that treatise and I can take pictures of the applicable pages if you like. It's getting kinda' late in the UK at this point and Cynthia OUGHT to be in bed by this hour (I know, I'm not your parents, Cynthia, but I DO care!).

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

Pidgey,
I can't even ask you what page you have it on because we have different versions of the book. If you found it, under what section or sub section is it?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, it's not out of that book. She's referring to a small booklet on PMV that was published in the UK in the '80s.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I will say this about the various clinical accounts of PMV: they're all confusing in the first reading. And the second. The reason for the confusion is the aggravating tendency of the writers to adhere to calling ND (Newcastle Disease) "PMV-1", while addressing a slightly different family of the Paramyxoviridae that we're more familiar with since it's the one we're more worried about with our pigeons as "PMV-1".

With ND, there are several strains (and they're numbered in the chart) and they're characterized as "lentogenic", "mesogenic" and "velogenic". That's mild, bad and worst, respectively. In the chart that I've got, there are 23 strains shown. All of those are in the ND family which is PMV-1. The "PMV-1 Pigeon" paramyxovirus strain is closely related to ND but it's still unique.

The treatise that Cynthia is referring to is: UNDERSTANDING PIGEON PARAMYXOVIROSIS by H. Vindevogel & J.P. Duchatel and probably originally published in Belgium in 1985. It discusses both the ND strains and the Pigeon strain. Pigeons are quite capable of getting either version, of course, and so it can get a bit muddy in the discussions of exactly which one is being talked about at the time. You just have to follow it very closely.

Essentially, though, the treatise upholds the idea that the true pigeon strain primarily affects the intestinal tract, the brain, the liver and the kidneys. If a given individual in your care does not demonstrate any problem with those as exhibited in the droppings, then the idea of giving them antibiotics isn't quite as scary. The authors of the treatise are mostly against the practice of fanciers of medicating under their own recognizance if you read between the lines.

Also, not all antibiotics are created equal--Metronidazole has the odd quality of mediating the immune response, especially in the lower intestines:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/metronidazole.html

Therefore, it is possible that Metronidazole would be a very useful drug to take during a PMV episode, especially if the intestines are involved. A lot of the problems that occur when we get sick are as much due to the immune response being too severe, as it is from the original pathogen. 

Take poison ivy, for instance--it's not toxic. Urushiol, the stuff that causes the reaction, is in no way, shape or form toxic to the body. It's just a foreign protein that latches on and takes awhile to let go. But, for those folks who suffer the associated dermatitis, IT IS THEIR OWN EXCESSIVE IMMUNE RESPONSE WHICH CAUSES ALL THE DAMAGE. 

And, likely, so it is for a lot of the damage done with PMV. Lady Tarheel's vet did some study and came up with an antibiotic therapy during a local PMV outbreak there in North Carolina. It was that vet's conclusion that the birds so affected might benefit from a combination therapy of Baytril plus Metronidazole. There might very well be some good science behind that thought although Lady Tarheel would have to ask that vet why. I think it's also true that Cindy had one that responded well to corticosteroid therapy--that it lessened the severity of the symptoms. And what is the effect of a corticosteroid? It dampens the immune response. Beginning to see a pattern here?

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

If I'm reading you correctly, you are trying to explain that the body's immunity system can react violently to an allergen. That's a given. Anyone who has any allergy to anything knows what the body's reaction can be like including anaphylactic shock. Further, the author is hypothesizing that this is comparable to the immunity system's response to a virus so that anything that can minimize the system's ability to react, might also reduce the PMV symptoms. 

I think that's a giant leap of faith because brain lesions aren't comparable to antigens. It is the lesions that cause the nerves to send false messages or no messages to the kidneys, temporarily short circuiting the organs. In other words, the lesions are direct physical manifestations that interfere with organ function.

How would an antibiotic like Flagyl reduce the failure of the synaptics and also, how could it prevent the virus from invading brain cells and exploding them when they're ready to come out? It's like saying that a stroke from a cancerous lesion in the brain could be reduced by giving an antibiotic and we know that does nothing at all. Also, Flagyl has to my knowledge, never been given to anyone for an allergic reaction so how do we know if that would work?

Unfortunately, a control group of PMV birds would have to be set up with Flagyl being given to the other group of PMV birds and observing any physical changes in both groups else We don't know if the birds' symptoms would have 
diminished at the same rate without the Flagyl. 

I can see how a corticosteroid could shrink the size of the lesion and therefore reduce the effects that it creates in the organs. That may be the better route to go.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, some drugs work in certain tissues more than others, you know. It's said that with colds, when you actually begin to display symptoms, that's when you're on the way to the cure. The symptoms ARE the signal that the immune system is beginning the war. Up to that point, you were happily and unknowingly pumping out more replicated virus. The symptoms are when the tissues get congested with immune cells pumping out antibodies like nobody's business.

Many cancers are the result of <Boing!> autoimmune disorders and immune responses. Take Helicobacter pylori--a bacteria that likes to live in the mucosa of the stomach. Long term infection often causes stomach cancer due to the immune system's attempts to get rid of the stuff that's technically not in the body--they're just living in the mucosa like birds living in grasses. 

Lady Tarheel's vet didn't get anywhere near that technical about the drug getting into the bloodstream and interacting with the biochemistry and microbiology of the brain. I believe that there was some reference to the intestinal component of the disease and it was hoped that the Metronidazole would help with that. The neurological symptoms can be severe and the bird can still get over them. If the bird's unable to digest food, though, well, that can be a problem if it goes on too long or is too severe. So, the drug might have been used against a portion of the symptoms and not the whole doggone disease.

Corticosteroids actually cause a varying amount of immunosuppression, depending on the type and quantity. This is especially useful when the immune system causes too much congestion at the site. The immune system can cause such problems when it's technically not even needed like when you bruise a bone and the pain creates swelling (congestion) and the swelling then creates pain... vicious circle, but no pathogens involved. What's often prescribed? Local Corticosteroids. Why? To tell the immune system to buzz off and leave it alone.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

Well,
Let's agree on a couple of things; First of all, a steroid whether it is by epidural or swallowed, has the effect of reducing the vessels' ability to seep fluids into a wounded area and thereby reduce swelling. It also has the ability to reduce the action of inflammatory cells which serve to tempt leukocytes to the injured area where they find nothing most of the time so yes, it does immuno supress.

To digress for a second, birds with PMV do digest food, The problem with them is that they become constipated. Why? I'm guessing that the intestinal mucosa swell from an enteritis and the fecal material has less space to pass through ergo, constipation=stringish droppings. 

Theoretically A corticosteroid given not locally, should, at least in theory, serve to reduce all of the inflammatory cells pan-organ wide and therefore reduce the enteritis if that is what it is. If Flagyl can do that too, then it stands to reason that both should be administered so I'm suggesting that both drugs should be used concurrently.

Now, any antibiotic immuno suppresses the system. It takes the job over temporarily. It's greatest benefit is that it prevents bacteria from reproducing allowing the body to finally get a foothold against the infection and also, that it can theoretically prevent swelling by partially reducing the need for leukocytes pouring into an infected area. 

So why not any antibiotic? Why just Flagyl? They are all going to act the same way. True, the type of bacteria dictates the type of antibiotic used but if we're correct, any broad spectrum should do the same job as Flagyl in that they should all serve to reduce swelling.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> To digress for a second, *birds with PMV do digest food, The problem with them is that they become constipated.* Why? I'm guessing that the intestinal mucosa swell from an enteritis and the fecal material has less space to pass through ergo, constipation=stringish droppings.


That may possibly be the case in some, but not my Pij. He was never constipated.  

Cindy


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

"Well, some drugs work in certain tissues more than others, you know. It's said that with colds, when you actually begin to display symptoms, that's when you're on the way to the cure. The symptoms ARE the signal that the immune system is beginning the war. Up to that point, you were happily and unknowingly pumping out more replicated virus. The symptoms are when the tissues get congested with immune cells pumping out antibodies like nobody's business."

Yes, you are completely correct. While we are suffering all the symptoms that a cold brings, we aren't contagious anymore. However, if we are to accept conventional wisdom, the birds are contagious from PMV for the six weeks they are exhibiting symptoms plus the time from when they first contracted it until the first symptoms present. It's a small point but it does show the differences among different viruses. Thankfully, birds don't catch our colds. They have their own but when they come down with one, it can kill them whereas we can survive a lousy cold.

One thing I never knew the answer to is: Two weeks after the 6 week period, these birds show symptoms again. Why? And why when they become excited, they will show symptoms throughout all their lifetime? This is a rhetorical question: Is it because there is permanent, scar tissue (brain lesions) or is it because PMV is actually a retro virus? We can get shingles years after an attack of chicken pox. Is this a type of virus that has invaded the system some time way before PMV symptoms show up and in a different form?


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

Cindy,
I think it all depends on what part of the brain it hits. That's my best guess.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

_Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonperson 
To digress for a second, *birds with PMV do digest food, The problem with them is that they become constipated.* Why? I'm guessing that the intestinal mucosa swell from an enteritis and the fecal material has less space to pass through ergo, constipation=stringish droppings. _ 

* * * *

That may possibly be the case in some, but not my Pij. He was never constipated. 

Cindy




pigeonperson said:


> Cindy,
> I think it all depends on what part of the brain it hits. That's my best guess.


Well, at least that part of Pij's brain was working right.   

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Cynthia, do you have anything in writing on the web about not using antibiotics when there is PMV? I don't want you to be put on the spot so if you don't have anything, just say so.


I think you missed Post 15, that is where I quoted from the source which was Vindevogel and Duchatel. They did a lot of experimental research and necropsies which is why they were able to examine the effect of antibiotics on the organs. You will notice that Vindevogel is one of the sources of reference for Circovirus used in Pidgie's Big Book.

The size of the booklet isn't important, it is the content. It was written in simple booklet form because it was aimed at fanciers. Vindevogel and Duchatel wrote scentific papers on PMV but they would not have been intelligible to the all fanciers.


> The virus works its way through the body destroying cells as it reproduces. It starts in the respiratory system, progresses to the digestive tract and ends up in the brain. Its persistence in each of these area was tested, in all it persists for 6 weeks, 4 of them in the respiratory system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

Thank you Pidgey and Cynthia,
This has been an excellent discourse and learning experience.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Most of them had varying but copious amounts of urine, constipation and tortillosis, three sure signs of PMV so I assumed that's what it was. (The problem is that it's all assumption.) This one has me stumped.


I am still uncertain about the one that may or may not have ornithosis. Her poops are classic PMV, but then so are the poops of one of the squeakers in the attic. She has shown very, very minor tremors and very minor diffficulty picking up seed. But she is still getting respiratpry exudate on her palate.

As you are aware, I am treating her with Baytril. This is because the respiratory symptoms were more apparent than the nervous symptoms and I would not want her to die of something like ornithosis in an attempt to minimise the impact of PMV if it is that she suffers from. There is no rule that a pigeon can only suffer from one condition at any one time. I will always give antibiotics if there is a need, for example a cat caught or hawk caught PMV bird would be treated with Clavamox.

What I wouldn't do is give antibiotics to a PMV sufferer without knowing what I was aiming at...even Baytril isn't efffective against everything. 

Cynthia


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

With symptoms like that, you have no choice but to treat with antibiotics. Baytril is not the panacea everybody may think it is but it does hit a great deal of different gram negative bacteria. Incidentally, there is a newer drug out called Enroxil. I think it's a generic form of Baytril and cheaper.

One rehabilitator I'm in contact with, has every one of her birds gram and fecal tested. She's been finding that one after the other has bacterial infection, worms and coccidiosis plus yeast infection. Our best guess about the yeast is that the weather has been abnormally warm but yes, birds can have many things wrong with them at the same time.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> ............ Incidentally, there is a newer drug out called Enroxil. I think it's a generic form of Baytril and cheaper.
> 
> .............


Isn't Enroxil a generic form of Baytril?

fp


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

Hi fp,
I believe it is.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

My two cents. 

I've had PMV pigeons that have displayed atypical symptoms such as: slight shivering; irate behaviour; able to walk and eat & drink normally throughout the day but sleep lying down with their neck twisted; excessive sleeping. Some PMV display healthy poops or although they walk in circles - they never twist their neck.
The tremors you see... could it be a slight shiver? I have had cases where the "shiver" is localized.

I have one right now that hasn't displayed any symptoms since last summer and two days ago he relapsed into a full blown case - unable to stand, complete neck twisting and refuses to drink. All this for no apparent (no reasoning of increased stress) cause.

While displaying symptoms, I treat them all with liquid calcium. Honestly, I am always amazed at their recovery with using the calcium. Within days they have always returned to a self-sufficient status.

As mentioned on a previous post by Cynthia, PMV pigeons' fluid intake is highly increased initially. I so agree, although I do not know the reasons why. But the relapsed pigeon I mentioned I have is all but refusing to drink which is ultimately prolonging recovery.

A pigeon might hunker down in the food dish and give the impression that they're satiated but in reality they've consumed very little. Their inability to pick up the seed that they are reaching for ends up tiring them. I towel wrap them and hold them over an angled seed dish. 

Although I have not had a PMV pigeon coupled with a concussion or head injury, given the nature of the illness it is possible.

Julianne


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