# Hey bluecheck



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Frank:

I'm going to try to post some photos that I took yesterday of a pair of Rollers that belong to a friend of mine. We have been discussing what they might be and we are confused. I believe that the base color is ash red but beyond that, I don't know what modifier or modifiers these birds have. This is a father/daughter pair that has produced birds that look pretty much like themselves but now have a blue bar youngster. They are in a separate breeding pen so we know the baby is theirs.

The cock bird has alot of flecks around his neck, none in his tail. Both birds are white flighted. They look very creamy colored but there is a slate blue overlay that is most visible at the ends of the secondaries. Hopefully, I can load the pics and we can get some opinions on what this beautiful pair might be.

Billhttp://


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Beautiful birds. At first I was going to almost agree with ash-red, but if you look at the bird in the foreground, the tail shows a dark, not ash, bar. I'm going to send these birds over to Kenny Davis (The Almondator) to see what he says. I'm sure they're one of the almond alleles, plus maybe or without something, but I'm not sure exactly what. At first I thought they might be barless almond or almond reduced, but there's too much color in the neck for that so I don't think so. Let's see what Kenny says and I'll get back to you.

Frank


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I agree with the Almond*



bluecheck said:


> Beautiful birds. At first I was going to almost agree with ash-red, but if you look at the bird in the foreground, the tail shows a dark, not ash, bar. I'm going to send these birds over to Kenny Davis (The Almondator) to see what he says. I'm sure they're one of the almond alleles, plus maybe or without something, but I'm not sure exactly what. At first I thought they might be barless almond or almond reduced, but there's too much color in the neck for that so I don't think so. Let's see what Kenny says and I'll get back to you.
> 
> Frank


I said the same thing, that I think maybe Almond is present but I'm still thinking that it is some form of Ash Red as well because of the Blue Bar baby that they have. Also, the tails do look ash to me but altered. I'll try to post another pic.







This shows the tail of the cock bird.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Check this one out*

This pic is on Bob McGuan's site. He calls it Grey Qualmond. This has to be what my friend's pair are, just not the same color. I still think that they must be ash red.








You can see the same appearance in the ends of the secondary flights. They look the same right down to white flights but I'm sure white flights are irrelevant. Bob shows some others under Qualmond that have this same appearance in other colors but none in ash red or that look exactly like the ones I posted. I sent the pics to him too and he thought Qualmond and Dominant Opal. I don't see how they can be Opal with a blue bar baby and he's not calling these Opal on his site. It's what I always thought they were but the blue bar in the nest changed all that.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thought revision #632*

Frank:

I read up on Dominant Opal and I guess they might be just that. I forgot that Dominant Opal birds are normally Het. and that they would produce 1/4 non Opal young. Homozygous Dominant Opal either does not exist or does not live long, according to what I've read, due to lethal genes.

I always had thought this pair was some kind of Opal and once they had a blue bar youngster, I thought I must have been wrong about it. It seems that I thought I was wrong but was mistaken.

From the Qualmond pics on Bob's site, they look nearly identical with a different color base. In my mind, it has to be ash red split for blue. Just what gives them the clear wing with blue shadow at the tips of secondaries, I don't know, maybe spread, maybe bar. I thought maybe barless but can't be with a blue bar baby. Can Qualmond and Dominant Opal create this look or do we need another modifier? Interesting and pretty birds, to say the least.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Haven't forgotten you. Was waiting for my friend's reply. Basically, it was (I don't know.) "Might be almond with reduced."

I'm 100% sure personally that it's an almond allele. Whether it's almond or sandy or qualmond with ash-red, I'm not sure. I'm sending the pics back out to a few others.

Remember - the bird only has three possible pigments. Red., blue-black, brown. On top of that you can have various modifiers. So you can have an ash-red almond, a blue-black almond; or a brown-almond. The cocks of these can be (in fact most are) heterozygous almond, so they can throw ash-red, blue/black, and or brown daughters (and sometimes sons) depending on what the hen is.

You're absolutely correct about the barred youngster meaning that both parents can't be barless. I'm not sure why the shield is so clear. I'm definitely sending these pics off to a few more people.

Frank


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Frank*



bluecheck said:


> Haven't forgotten you. Was waiting for my friend's reply. Basically, it was (I don't know.) "Might be almond with reduced."
> 
> I'm 100% sure personally that it's an almond allele. Whether it's almond or sandy or qualmond with ash-red, I'm not sure. I'm sending the pics back out to a few others.
> 
> ...


Well, the birds can't be reduced as they have a normal blue bar baby. Without that fact, a fair guess. Just to look at them, you'd think they have some type of dilution, reduced, faded or something but I don't think any of these would allow for them to have a blue bar youngster.

The fact that the cock bird has black flecks and the hen does not or the fact that his flecks are not in his tail, just adds to the confusion. I don't know if they are almond flecks, qualmond flecks or ash red/blue. Other than a lack of flecks on the hen, the two look identical and she is his daughter.

I don't know very much about Qualmond at all and it is still new to me. If it ain't in the Quinn book, I don't really know about it. Funny, the name Qualmond is for Joe Quinn and relates to his study of Almond. I see them on McGuan's site but there isn't alot of explanation to the genetics of it. I also have a copy of Bob's book (borrowed from the owner of these birds) and it might have alittle more info, just haven't read the whole thing yet.

The similarity of these birds to the Qualmonds on Slobberknocker is a definate clue but there is more to these two than just Qualmond, I'm pretty sure. One is base color which I'm still convinced is ash red and beyond that, whether they have something else such as Dominant Opal, which I think they probably have as well.

He has a youngster that looks like the pair, which I am going to buy from him
so I can do my own test matings to set this thing straight once and for all. Besides that, I'll have a very nice looking bird with some interesting genetics.

Bill


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