# Need help determining age/feeding schedule/amount



## meldawgofcc

Hello! 

I am an LVT and have taken on the task of raising a pigeon who's nest was blown out of a building last weekend. I have had him since Monday and I feel like we are progressing well. Baby pigeons are a rarity of baby birds to show up at our hospital. I need help determining his age and feeding amount/schedule. I've tried comparing him to pictures of babies and can't seem to nail his age.

On Thursday he weighed in at 16 grams.

I've started feeding him @ sunrise and feed him throughout daylight hours about every 2-3 hours (About 5-6 feedings a day). I'm using the balloon-syringe method with Lafeber's baby bird formula. I've joked that he treats it as a beer bong and sucks it down in less than 20 seconds. He's eating roughly 15 mL's a feeding. 

He has just started taking steps, but just on his hocks, not fully standing. 

His dark feathers are coming in and are shedding their 'quill covers'.

I've raised mostly blackbirds and robins in the past, and boy does this feel like a different ball game. I can't get over how big his crop is and how much he eats in one setting. And I thought baby black birds were pigs!

Thanks for any help.


Picture is from Tuesday night.


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## Dobato

Hi Meldawgofcc,

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk and thanks for helping this little guy out.

He looks to be about round 12 days old, I put a link below that is helpful in determining their age. I also placed a link below that gives some good information on hand raising a baby, it sounds like you are doing well, you may just need to start adjust the number of feedings a day. At about three weeks old you can start to put a seed dish in with him and scatter some seeds around the dish for him to peck at. I will look for some links on weaning and post them later.

http://www.mumtazticloft.com/BabyPigeons.asp

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Recipes/handfeedinghelp.htm

Good luck with him and if you have any other questions just ask away, lots of people here will be happy to help you out,

Karyn


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## Skyeking

Thank you so much for helping this baby.

Are the joints in his legs and wings swollen, or does he have an injury/bruising/trauma?

Where do you live, perhaps we can help you find someone to take a look at him?


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## Charis

It's very important to feed the baby only when the crop is empty because adding food to a crop that has food already in it, can cause a bacterial; infection which may be fatal.
15 ml's per feeding sounds about right and gradually increasing the amount as the baby grows.
This baby is about at the age where you can begin to feed whole foods such as defrosted peas and corn.
I also think you should check him for canker.


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## Charis

*Pre-written feeding instructions*...


You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. 
You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. 
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. The next step… seeds. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas and corn make it lumpy and squishy.


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## meldawgofcc

*Thanks!*

Thanks everyone for replying!

I'm going to try to run down the line of replies here.

Karyn- Thank you for your age estimate. I was thinking he was somewhere along there and had seen other charts that were not as helpful. After reading over your second link, I believe that when you say to make a schedule adjustment - it is not as often, yes? I check his crop before feeding him and it feels flatter and 'squishier'. I'm still amazed at their body size and crop size.

Treesa - All joints and limbs look good. By what the Good Samaritan that picked him up said, it sounds like the nest took the brunt of the fall. I'm in Virginia. One of the vets I work with actually does lots of avian and wildlife work, and we work closely with a local rehaber. It's about this time of year our rehaber gets SWAMPED w baby everythings (squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, birds, deer) so I offered to hold on to this one and help lighten her load. Our avian/wildlife vet was on vacation last week, so once she is back in the office I'm going to have her do a checkup on him just to make sure there isn't anything I'm overlooking. 

Charis- Thank you for the peas and corn idea. My dog had surgery a couple of months ago and I still have frozen peas out the wazoo from icing his incisions. I've been checking his crop before feeds and it feels deflated. Do tell about checking for canker. 

Again, thanks everyone! I'm so glad to have 'met' you guys.

 Melanie


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## cvarnon

He weighed 16 grams when you got him? Are you sure it wasn't 160 grams?

I agree, he does look about 2 weeks old in that picture. Here is another site that has pigeons as they develop.
http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

I've never heard of the formula you are describing, I always use kaytee exact. At that stage in development, I think you won't have any problem. You can start mixing in seeds to the formula, and gradually give him more seeds. Just make sure his crop empties out completely once a day and you should do fine. I've heard some debate about wether the crop has to empty completely before each feeding. I don't think the parents do that. But definatly make sure it is completly empty before the first morning feeding.


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## c.hert

It's a beautiful little baby and I am so glad you are taking care of it and the picture you took makes its wings and feet (can't see look awkward) anyway you could post a more up to date picture when you get time and what a lucky bird it is--Thanks for your expert and loving care for it....c.hert


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## Dobato

meldawgofcc said:


> Thanks everyone for replying!
> 
> Karyn- Thank you for your age estimate. I was thinking he was somewhere along there and had seen other charts that were not as helpful. After reading over your second link, I believe that when you say to make a schedule adjustment - it is not as often, yes? I check his crop before feeding him and it feels flatter and 'squishier'. I'm still amazed at their body size and crop size.


Hi Melanie,

Yes, a little more, and not as often. The last one I hand raised, I was feeding around 30ml three times a day, morning, afternoon, night, at just past two weeks old. I know the link I posted for you says 40ml, every bird is a bit different, if you feel he can take a bit more than 30ml, you can add a bit more. I always feel that instead of going by firm numbers, let the crop tell you how much to feed. The nice thing about the pigeon age link I posted for you is you can see in some of the photos what a nicely filled crop should look like.

If you do decide to supplement with some peas and corn, as Charis suggests, make sure you take this into account when feeding, as he will not be able to take 40 pieces and then the tube feeding at the same time. The best way is to feel the crop area and make sure it has emptied before adding anything more.

Karyn


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## Charis

Here's a link on canker. It's easily treated.

http://www.avianweb.com/canker.html


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## meldawgofcc

Yes ... 160 grams... sorry for the typo. 

I'll let him know at the next feeding that our schedule is going to tighten up a bit. Thank you for confirming that his feedings can be spaced further apart. This of course will spoil me rotten after being used to the frequent feedings of black birds.

I looked for the Kaytee's ... we live in an extremely rural area so I could not find it. The brand I did find seems compatible to the Kaytees.

Charis - I pried open his little beak looking for lesions. He slapped me in the face with one of his wings. It took me a while to stop laughing, but I got a pretty good second look and I do not see any lesions. Since there is such a prevalence of this in pigeons, is it common to treat a baby prophylactically?

Thanks again everyone, I also think he's super cute.


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## Charis

cvarnon said:


> He weighed 16 grams when you got him? Are you sure it wasn't 160 grams?
> 
> I agree, he does look about 2 weeks old in that picture. Here is another site that has pigeons as they develop.
> http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm
> 
> I've never heard of the formula you are describing, I always use kaytee exact. At that stage in development, I think you won't have any problem. You can start mixing in seeds to the formula, and gradually give him more seeds. Just make sure his crop empties out completely once a day and you should do fine. I've heard some debate about wether the crop has to empty completely before each feeding. I don't think the parents do that. But definatly make sure it is completly empty before the first morning feeding.


I've noticed that parents do let the crop empty before feeding. Really...the pea and corn feeding method is so easy.


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## Charis

meldawgofcc said:


> Yes ... 160 grams... sorry for the typo.
> 
> I'll let him know at the next feeding that our schedule is going to tighten up a bit. Thank you for confirming that his feedings can be spaced further apart. This of course will spoil me rotten after being used to the frequent feedings of black birds.
> 
> I looked for the Kaytee's ... we live in an extremely rural area so I could not find it. The brand I did find seems compatible to the Kaytees.
> 
> Charis - I pried open his little beak looking for lesions. He slapped me in the face with one of his wings. It took me a while to stop laughing, but I got a pretty good second look and I do not see any lesions. Since there is such a prevalence of this in pigeons, is it common to treat a baby prophylactically?
> 
> Thanks again everyone, I also think he's super cute.


Canker manifests in different ways other than in the lesions in the mouth. I would treat him for canker, if he was here with me.

I love it that he wing slapped you.


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## Jay3

Well, for the amount of feathers that he has, he does have a lot of bald spots, especially around the face and neck area. This usually indicates that the bird has canker. I would definitely treat him for canker. If you wait too long, it is much harder to cure.


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## c.hert

I don't like how awkwards it looks in that photo and if you could get another picture of him or her---this would sure help--for all concerned---that position bothers me and I am seriously concerned until I can get another look at your baby...c.hert


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## c.hert

Maybe to give you a bit more confidence in doing this saving a baby pigeon I have a link here for you to look at some pictures and stuff like that--I have to just type the address in because I don't know how to link things as of yet (not computer savy)--- so the address is : http://kjcii.webs.com/handfeeding.htm and I sure hope this works--just to give you confidence that these things can be done....c.hert


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## c.hert

My goodness I put the address in and it automatically linked it---how wonderful..c.hert


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## Jay3

Yes, could you possibly get another shot of him from the front and side maybe?


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## meldawgofcc

*More Pictures From This Morning*

Happy Easter to everyone that celebrates it!

These are pictures from this morning's feedings. He hadn't had breakfast yet and was doing the happy wing dance. 

He must be the sassiest pigeon on earth. I've seen the photos of everyone cleaning their pigeons face after feeding. The minute I put down his syringe and reach for the washcloth he's already made it back inside the carrier. I try reaching in and doing it, but he puts up a big scene and makes me feel like I'm killing him. It's quite similar to that of a toddler in the grocery store 

I think at work we still have this paste metronidazole that is really dilute for kittens/cats. I'll see if we still have that, it should be easy to mix into his feedings.


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## meldawgofcc

*One More Photo*

One last picture from this morning.


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## Dobato

Looking good, keep up the good work!

Are you OK for figuring out dosing for the metronidazole?

Karyn


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## c.hert

He is a mess--is that yellow stuff food on him---so precious--looks good to me if that stuff is food.....thanks....c.hert


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## spirit wings

he looks ok to me in the second pics, does he actually have canker?


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## Jay3

He doesn't look okay. For the amount of feathering he has, he shouldn't have bald spots. He has canker. You can't just give him the past. You have to know how much to give him, and measure the proper amount. Too little, and it won't work, to much, you can hurt the bird. If you work where you can get meds, than can you get the right one for the bird? The dosage has to be right. You can even go to a store that sells fish and buy Fish Zole. That's Metronidazole 250 mg. Just make sure that it is ONLY Metronidazole.


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## meldawgofcc

What mg/kg dosage of Metronidazole do you use? How many days/times a day?


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## Dobato

Meldawgofcc, dosage is entirely weight dependent, you need to weigh the little guy and post back his weight (before feeding).

Karyn


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## meldawgofcc

We found a reference through VIN of 40 - 60 mg/kg once daily for five days. So we went straight in the middle for the 50 mg/kg dose. He just had his first dose just a few moments ago ( a fun moment ). I thought about mixing it in his feed, but even with the paste it was such a small amount, I decided directly dosing him would be the safer bet of him getting all of this meds.

And I'm proud to say that we are 220 grams today! Woo-hoo! Moving on up!

Is the common consensus with you guys is to treat for five days also?


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## Dobato

meldawgofcc said:


> We found a reference through VIN of 40 - 60 mg/kg once daily for five days. So we went straight in the middle for the 50 mg/kg dose. He just had his first dose just a few moments ago ( a fun moment ). I thought about mixing it in his feed, but even with the paste it was such a small amount, I decided directly dosing him would be the safer bet of him getting all of this meds.
> 
> And I'm proud to say that we are 220 grams today! Woo-hoo! Moving on up!
> 
> Is the common consensus with you guys is to treat for five days also?


That dose and five days should be fine.

Karyn


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## meldawgofcc

Thanks Karyn. You guys have been very helpful and encouraging! Pesto and I are both very grateful!


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## pdpbison

Hi meldawgofcc,



At this age one may feed whole small Seeds...small to medium size Seeds.


Ones I get in, by this age, are self-feeding by Pecking within hours of arrival, with me hand feeding also, till they elect to self-wean.


An easy way to do this, is to use a small glass, such as a Shot Glass, or other small deepish Cup or other, and, fill it 4/5ths of the way with small whole Seeds.


Moisten your finger tips in warm water, shake drops off, and, gently put your finger tips on his Beak so he 'nuzzles'...as he nuzzles, guide his Beak into the Shot Glass of Seeds, and keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak so he feels them there, and, he will 'Gobble' the whole Seeds just as if he were gobbling food with his Beak in his parent's Throat.


Very soon, he will begin pecking the same Seeds inbetween guided Beak gobble moments, and, thus, will be pecking.


Once self feeding, once Pecking, it is best if one pecks with him, so he enjoys the presence and assurance...for which, just use your crook'd index finger, and, pretend to peck with it as if it were a Beak, as he pecks, or to invite and encourage him to peck.


Very easy to feed whole Seeds by hand also, making a sort of upside down Shadow Puppet shape of a Duck Head with your Hand, and, with his Nuzzling Beak in the ends of your finger tips, the Seeds roll down into his opening and closing Beak.


One can fill up a 'Peeper' the size and age of yours, in a minute or so, giving him a nice 'Tangerine' Crop to coast contentedly on for the next eight hours or so.


If you gently guide his Beak into tepid Water, and keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak, he will gladly drink Like-a-Horse.




Yes...un-Feathered areas under the chin or behind the Beak on the Face and so on, can suggest a light inflamitory process of some kind going on...often this may be Canker...so...a Business week on Metronidazole is a prudent and reasonable move if one sees such 'blank areas', just as Jay3 recommends.


Actually, Metronidazole is very forgiving dosage wise, but one should still weigh the patient, and, calculate the dose based on the Miligram per Kilo.


If he is eating liquid formula from the Balloon-diaphram Syringe, simply mix his dose with the formula, and he can have it that way.


Adding Apple Cider Vinegar will enhance the efficacy of the Metronidazole, as well as benifit him generally.


For which, a convenient method, would be to use a Glass Quart container...add a generous Tablespoon of ACV to a Quart of Water, and, use that for mixing his dry formula ingredients.



What do the poops and urates look like?

Are the Urates unambiguously 'White'?




Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


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## Charis

Pesto is a very cute name.


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## Dobato

Meldawgofcc, Here is a link below, as I promised I would post earlier in this thread, for information on weaning to seeds. Phil, (pdpbison) who has just posted, was the member who I had in mind in looking for some of the previous information he has posted on doing this, and is quite experienced at this. If you have any questions on any of this, I'm sure he will be happy to provide further guidance.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/feeding-a-three-week-old-pigeon-27936.html


Good luck,

Karyn


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## meldawgofcc

Hello everyone! Things are going along just great here. Pesto is on day 3 of his Metronidazole. I'm going to try to post a new picture of him and some poop also. The urate is not seen right away in his droppings. When it starts to dry, that's when it's visible. The actual 'fecal material' is brown and coiling. 

I've just started using the vinegar mixture in his formula. On the subject of formula we have finally been able to cut back to about 4 feedings a day. He's tried to make me feel awful about this, but I've stood my ground... and hoping that we'll be down to 3 by the weekend.

We tried the peas, and we were having little of no success. I'm not sure what it was... but after a few days of frustrating battles, I finally decided he wasn't a pea man.

HOWEVER  This afternoon we have tried the seeds in a shot glass. I'm not sure that we have a lot of 'productivity', but he's going through the motions and occasionally sucks up a seed or two. It seems to be mostly fun for now and a way to get out of his carrier. 

Charis - I don't know if you would know the cartoon, but Warner Brothers put a few shorts out maybe 15 years ago - it was of 3 pigeons, and it was a mockery of 'The Goodfellas' - it was called 'The Good Feathers'. The fiesty pigeon who was like Joe Pecsi character - his name was Pesto. After the slapping incident... I knew it was the name for us. BTW, he's still using that right hook when something is not going his way 

Hopefully some photos to follow in a bit.


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## meldawgofcc

*Poop pictures...*

The first one is a very fresh sample. I cannot visualize the urate part of the droppings immediately, but as you can tell by the second photo that they appear after some drying time. This maybe normal, but I figured I'd throw it out there. Sorry, the pink towel sample is a little harder to visualize.


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## meldawgofcc

*Nicer photos*

And a cute photo to make up for the poop photo. Improving on overall feather coverage.

I'm also pleased to note that we are winning the battle with the 'food- dreadlocks'


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## Dobato

Hi Melanie,

Thanks for the update and photos, Pesto is getting to be a big boy.

You're doing a great job with him,

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Hi Melanie,


You have to have warm, slightly moist finger-tips on the sides of his Beak for him to 'nuzzle' in your finger-tips, thus, for him to 'gooble' Seeds from a Cup or other small deep holder, as you keep your finger-tips on the sides of his Beak.


Every 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' I have done this with, does it well, and more or less instantly. Small whole Seeds, such as 'Canary' seed is best...large Seeds are too big for this.


Whole small sized seeds and Grit via 'gobbling', along with formula feeds, would be best for his development.

Also, if guided the same way, keeping your finger-tips on the sides of his Beak as you guide it into tepid ( roughly a little less than body temperature ) Water...he will gladly Drink. He needs your moist, warm finger-tips on his Beak sides to do these things...and...they usually need more Water than formula mixes will provide.


This also leads very quickly ( usually, with a few times ) to successful Pecking, thus self feeding with whole Seeds and Grit...where a regular Pigeon Seed mix will be fine, which you can augment with formula feeds.


Poops and Urates are definitely 'off'...maybe the meds, maybe the Canker...maybe some low infection of some kind, but Kidneys or lower urate processing are not working well...Urates should be White 'paste', not syrupy liquid...but, likely, this will soon pass, and, poops and Urates will become normal, as he shakes off whatever minor infections he has.


He's a cutie...


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato

Phil, that was a nice post.

Karyn


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## meldawgofcc

*Update!*

Just wanted to let everyone know that Pesto and I are getting along fine! We are down to two 'bottle feedings' a day, and just 30 mL's at that. During the day he's feeding himself a fair bit of cockatiel and finch seed mixes. We take walks around the yard where he pecks through the grass. His upperward flight is only about a 'step high' but he's good at coasting down from our top porch steps. 

Thanks again to everyone who helped us out 

Mel and Pesto

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4027326&l=32c611b97a&id=661715381


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## c.hert

Thats a wonderful update and I sure hope a few others on other threads comes to a good conclusion as yours..Thanks for the bright news...c.hert


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## Dobato

Melanie, it looks like you are doing a wonderful job bringing up Pesto, he is cute as a button. Please do monitor his flying abilities closely each day, as they can go from not flying so well, to flying well, seeming overnight and you don't want him getting up somewhere where you may not be able to get to him.

Thanks for the update and look forward to future ones,

Karyn


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## meldawgofcc

Still doing great. We've got flight of about 20 - 30 feet with heights of about 6 feet. Steering could still use some improvement 

Could someone recommend a 'pigeon diet' for Pesto. He's still chowing on the cockatiel mix and the finch mix, and he still seems to enjoy the tiny seeds the best. I know soon though he'll be able to and will need to eat a real pigeon diet. I see Kaytee's makes several different types of feed. He will be spending more times outdoors and will need adequate calories/nutrition for a outdoor pigeon life... but not that of a racing pigeon. 

Any suggestions? Are there any with grit already mixed in to the diet? He spends roughly 1 - 1 1/2 hours outside now going through the grass and picking up things to eat... and I assume this is how wild pigeons come across grit in their diet. How much grit supplementation will he need when he's bigger and spending all his time outdoors?


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## Jay3

There are lots of different pigeon mixes. I guess it does somewhat depend on what you can find in your area. I was buying a Purgrain mix I liked, but now that place just decided to stop selling feed. So we picked up another one to try that was in the area. I really don't like it as well, but we needed feed. I'll have to keep looking. Kaytee does make several, but I tried one once and didn't care for it. Grit will never come mixed in the diet, and you shouldn't mix it in either. But if your bird is eating seed, then he should have grit, in a separate dish, always available. He will take what he needs. Pick up a good high calcium pigeon grit. And oyster shell in another dish.


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## Msfreebird

meldawgofcc said:


> We found a reference through VIN of 40 - 60 mg/kg once daily for five days. So we went straight in the middle for the 50 mg/kg dose. He just had his first dose just a few moments ago ( a fun moment ). I thought about mixing it in his feed, but even with the paste it was such a small amount, I decided directly dosing him would be the safer bet of him getting all of this meds.
> 
> And I'm proud to say that we are 220 grams today! Woo-hoo! Moving on up!
> 
> Is the common consensus with you guys is to treat for five days also?


Hi meldawgofcc, what a cutie, your doing a great job 
Just wanted to mention a few things for future reference - I hope he's enclosed outside, it only takes a split second for a tragedy with pet pigeons. There are some horror stories here 
And, **Don't put much stock in VIN** I use to go on there all the time when I had a problem ---- not any more. They don't know and can't seem to agree on advise for *pigeons* You would do much better with the resources found here at PT.
And btw, welcome to PT


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