# Air Sac infection?



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey guys, I hope you are having a nice day so far.

I wonder if any of you would have a few moments to help me with a small problem I'm having please?

As some of you may remember, a couple of weeks ago I took in a stray racing pigeon with some injuries, blood on its feathers, and signs of starvation such as passing runny yellow droppings. He picked up very nicely after I took him in & fed him, and I even got him a beautiful white `discarded' racing hen as a companion and mate from my local racing pigeon club. They like each other a lot & they show some early signs of performing mating rituals, such as him trying to feed her and mount her (they are both 1 year olds)

But the problem is that although he's `ok', I'm not having much luck with getting his droppings into top condition again, and I think there is still something wrong with him. I could sure use some advice, if you have any?

As a med rundown, During the first week I had him on Baytril & metronidazole. The droppings remained runny after that week, with a milky colour in the urates. So I changed his antibiotic to Sulfa 3, added Nilstat, and stopped the canker meds during week two. AT the end of week two i treated for cocci with appertex.

The droppings slightly improved afterweek 2 (nilstat, sulfa-3, appertex), especially after meals, but manydroppings still are just as bad as they were. 

The worst of them look like puddles of milky white urates with brown solids broken up in the puddle.

I was hoping for better than this so now that I'm on the third week of meds, I am trying him on doxycycline, in case the injury just under its wing joint has hurt an airsac. Yesterday was his first day on the doxy and he had his first day of near-normal droppings. So I am hoping I've finally got him on the right medication for him.

I would appreciate any thoughts about this treatment, and also any input about air sac problems and what symptoms I might see if that really is the problem with him (or one of them)?

Thanks a lot for your time!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

Aside from the droppings, is there any indication that he may be ill? How is his appetite, weight, stance, general behavior (though if he's displaying courting signs he sounds in fair form  )?

Only air sac problems I know of are a respiratory infection which is affecting the air sacs, ruptured air sac (which would be noticeable) and air sac mites. Is there any unusual sound to his breathing, like wheezing or 'clicking'?

I think we also should consider that medications can themselves affect the color/consistency of poops, particularly when we give them a variety of meds. I know that sometimes we have to try what we can, but at some point I think a bird's system needs to be allowed to normalize, maybe with the help of vitamins and/or probiotics.

I sure know about poops which just don't seem to get back to normal. We have a pair who have become quite long-term residents in our 'hospital'. They keep varying (between them) from almost OK through somewhat messy green/white to smelly brown stodgy poops. This has been going on a while now. They've had Baytril, Synulox, Appertex, Moxidectin (I think) and, more recently, Lincospectin. At times (like after Lincospectin started) the poops began to show marked improvement, then deteriorated again. Aside from the poops, they are behaving like they enjoy their life of comparative luxury. Good appetites both, normal egg production and (with the hen) fierce determination to repel humans  We had to take 'em off all meds a couple of weeks back, so we could collect unadulterated poop samples and throat swab. The results came back with E.Coli, Streptococcus and Staphylococcus. Salmonella and parasitic infections were negative. Baytril is just not right for Streptococcus, so we were off track on that. They are now getting Doxycycline and Tylosin. I think we've probably hindered them in giving them the 'usual' stuff in our cabinet, and not being quick enough to get the analyses done.

A case I had in from outside my apartment had some strange poops at first, which your description of some reminds me of..

To me, though dubious about the sheer quantity, they looked pretty much like the early warning signs of PMV - think broken wormlike poops in pools of liquid. Note the pic was done with macro setting - a single small grain at bottom show the relative size of the droppings. This was an adult bird who could not fly, couldn't run, weighed under 300 grams and sat huddled up on the communal patio. Couple of days later he developed respiratory problems, with open beak breathing. I put him on Baytril, as that was all I had in stock then, and he got over it. Also gave canker med. He never showed any other symptoms, so I really don't know what the basic problem was. Could have been PMV which did not develop nervous signs but caused Conjunctivitis/Sinusitis (it happens), could have been just respiratory, Either way, I quarantined him as if he had PMV to be safe. He is now doing well, weighs near 350 grams and is due to come home from the aviary. You don't get PMV in Oz, I guess, so the poops were probably not quite the same.

Some poops conveniently dropped amid seed for comparison.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, without culture and sensitivity tests being done, sometimes it may take a few goes trying direct antibiotics to clear some stubborn infections, if he seems to be responding well to the Doxycycline then keep him on it for 10-14 days. Also, there are times after a bird has been ill that their droppings never return to optimal condition, I have a few birds that I have adopted, that I have had for quite sometimes, that I know are in very good health that have what would be called "poor looking" droppings, but outside of that, in all other respects, they are perfectly normal.

Bella, I know there are issues where you live with having your birds looked at by a vet, but is there anyone/place where you can just take some collected droppings into and have them run fecal tests?


Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi John, Thankyou very much for your reply. I appreciate that you understand perfectly what I'm going through, and the frustration of throwing good meds at a problem and not seeing the results you hoped for. 



> Aside from the droppings, is there any indication that he may be ill? How is his appetite, weight, stance, general behavior (though if he's displaying courting signs he sounds in fair form  )?


He's looking quite good behaviourally, but maybe a bit depressed....not ruffled like a sick bird, but more like a depression. He was a long distance flyer from 2000km south of here, and its racing season. So he would have been training every day and also the climate has changed a lot for him (10 plus degrees Celsius hotter)). So its all been a big change for him. I'm doing my best to keep him happy, with providing him with a companion, some sunlight etc but I know it will take him time to adjust. I aim to get him out flying again, but resetting his homing instincts will take a lot of time too.

So apart from what may be a `normal' depression, the main behaviour I've seen that worries me is an intermittent symptom where he sits with his mouth open and panting, and at other times sitting taking deep noticable breaths. But this is very intermittent, not unlike a bird reacting to hot weather (and he may just feel hot, with temps about 5-10 degrees hotter here).




> Only air sac problems I know of are a respiratory infection which is affecting the air sacs, ruptured air sac (which would be noticeable) and air sac mites. Is there any unusual sound to his breathing, like wheezing or 'clicking'?


John, I'm not hearing any sounds with his panting or regular breathing. 

If he has a ruptured air sac, what would be the signs? I have no idea what to look for...



> I think we also should consider that medications can themselves affect the color/consistency of poops, particularly when we give them a variety of meds. I know that sometimes we have to try what we can, but at some point I think a bird's system needs to be allowed to normalize, maybe with the help of vitamins and/or probiotics.


I hear you, John. Its a tightrope isn't it?

* We had to take 'em off all meds a couple of weeks back, so we could collect unadulterated poop samples and throat swab. The results came back with E.Coli, Streptococcus and Staphylococcus. *

That's the kind of thing I'm thinking with regards to my guy, John....that he has picked up something sensitive to the tetracyclines like strep etc. But its probably too early to know. He is still showing improvement in his droppings on the doxycycline, but I'll have to wait and see if this is temporary or not.




> A case I had in from outside my apartment had some strange poops at first, which your description of some reminds me of..
> 
> To me, though dubious about the sheer quantity, they looked pretty much like the early warning signs of PMV - think broken wormlike poops in pools of liquid. Note the pic was done with macro setting - a single small grain at bottom show the relative size of the droppings. This was an adult bird who could not fly, couldn't run, weighed under 300 grams and sat huddled up on the communal patio. Couple of days later he developed respiratory problems, with open beak breathing. I put him on Baytril, as that was all I had in stock then, and he got over it. Also gave canker med. He never showed any other symptoms, so I really don't know what the basic problem was. Could have been PMV which did not develop nervous signs but caused Conjunctivitis/Sinusitis (it happens), could have been just respiratory, Either way, I quarantined him as if he had PMV to be safe. He is now doing well, weighs near 350 grams and is due to come home from the aviary. You don't get PMV in Oz, I guess, so the poops were probably not quite the same.
> 
> Some poops conveniently dropped amid seed for comparison


.

Wow, that is a really happy ending to a bad problem, thanks for sharing that with me. Well done! I believe you are correct, and we don't get PMV here in Australia, but there are other viruses around like the dreaded circovirus. 

Thanks for the picture of the droppings too, I will file that in my brain for sure!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, without culture and sensitivity tests being done, sometimes it may take a few goes trying direct antibiotics to clear some stubborn infections, if he seems to be responding well to the Doxycycline then keep him on it for 10-14 days. Also, there are times after a bird has been ill that their droppings never return to optimal condition, I have a few birds that I have adopted, that I have had for quite sometimes, that I know are in very good health that have what would be called "poor looking" droppings, but outside of that, in all other respects, they are perfectly normal.
> 
> 
> 
> Karyn


Thanks Karyn,
Its good to know that some droppings never quite recover. What I'm seeing with this racing guy is the droppings recover for a bit, then regress. Its been frustrating. But so far the doxycycline is giving the best results.




> Bella, I know there are issues where you live with having your birds looked at by a vet, but is there anyone/place where you can just take some collected droppings into and have them run fecal tests?


There may be a Vet that I can `train' to do this for me in my town, or perhaps I can befriend someone at the university with an interest. You're right, it is something I need to figure out. I can'tr afford to run to the Vet with every rescue though; my partner wouldn't let me do it, for starters, and also we just can't afford the expense and time. My guy is not a fan of pigeons and so this part of my life really strains our relationship too Its sucha shame for us, but we try to compromise for one another.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, any vet or their tech will be able to do a fecal exam, because many of the same parasites, such as coccidia, round worms and other, infect cats and dogs, as well as other animals, such as birds. You could even train yourself to do this with an inexpensive microscope (or a friend that wants to help with an interest. Here are a few links to get you started, Pidgey does his own fecal exams and I am sure I remember seeing a few old threads with some pointers or we could just ask him for some help.

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm
http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/fecal-float.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDgk1g48ksg

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

> Bella, any vet or their tech will be able to do a fecal exam, because many of the same parasites, such as coccidia, round worms and other, infect cats and dogs, as well as other animals, such as birds.


Yes, you'd think so wouldn't you? But when I asked my local vet- the only one within a decent travelling distance from my home- if they could do a fecal for me, they said a flat `no' . They have been a big disappointment to me on many occasions now. It really seems that birds are not a huge interest to vets in my town. And yet I can get surgery performed on my rescued frogs virtually for free...how weird is that?



> You could even train yourself to do this with an inexpensive microscope (or a friend that wants to help with an interest. Here are a few links to get you started, Pidgey does his own fecal exams and I am sure I remember seeing a few old threads with some pointers or we could just ask him for some help.


Thanks for reminding me, Karyn, as this is something I'm very interested in doing. And histology was one of my strong points when I was studying to be a Vet, and I enjoy it. (I didn't finsih my degree because I sucked at anatomy, but all the practical stuff was a lot of fun). Thanks a huge amount for those links!

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm
http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/fecal-float.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDgk1g48ksg

Karyn[/QUOTE]


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