# Don't Believe Everything You Hear!!!



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

If you talk to ten different flyers they will tell you ten ways to do something. I am opening this thread to give us a place to find out some of what we should believe and what we shouldn't.

To kick things off, here is something I have heard from several flyers. " If in the raising of a young bird everything is not perfect it will never make a good racer". 

I had one young bird that was not getting enough food and was not growing with it's nest mate. I put this little baby into another nest with a small baby and she grew but was a little small. When race time came this little hen that had a hard time growing up placed 1st club for two races in a row and the next year produced a 1st place winner.

I believe it is the health and condition the bird is in when it comes time to race. What do you think?

Ace


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

ace in the hole said:


> If you talk to ten different flyers they will tell you ten ways to do something. I am opening this thread to give us a place to find out some of what we should believe and what we shouldn't.
> 
> To kick things off, here is something I have heard from several flyers. " If in the raising of a young bird everything is not perfect it will never make a good racer".
> 
> ...


well just to add that at one time I glued an egg that was cracked in the nest and the bird lived about a year and then died quickly after excreting blood in its droppings .. it was a totally beautiful and healthy bird up until that point thou not sure if that was a factor in her death thou


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Everyone thinks that you have to be very tall to excell in the NBA and then along comes a guy or two, that are 5'6" and 5'7" and they kick butt.

Spud Webb was 5'7" on a good day, and he won the slam dunk contest years back.

As they say. It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

I once had a pigeon that I wanted to get rid of because it looked and trained like it was worthless as a racing pigeon. This was back in the early eighties. I sent it on a 300 mile race, kind of hoping it would not come home. It was the biggest race of the year in young birds.

It got second place.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

A bad young bird doesn't always mean it'll be a bad old bird. I have had some birds, as ybs that couldn't race if their lives depending on it flying at measly speeds of 400-600ypm on perfect days taking forever to return home from a 100-250 mile race. Contemplated on giving the birds away and then as old birds, they placed top 10% and one even took 1st. 

So just because a bird is bad as a yb doesn't mean it'll make a bad old bird.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

2y4life said:


> A bad young bird doesn't always mean it'll be a bad old bird. I have had some birds, as ybs that couldn't race if their lives depending on it flying at measly speeds of 400-600ypm on perfect days taking forever to return home from a 100-250 mile race. Contemplated on giving the birds away and then as old birds, they placed top 10% and one even took 1st.
> 
> So just because a bird is bad as a yb doesn't mean it'll make a bad old bird.


You will find this with the long distance birds. Some of the long distance stock does not reach it's peak untill three years of age. They are slow maturing birds. You will usualy not see this with your speed stock or even mid distance birds.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I recently had a conversation with one of the more veteran flyers in my combine. A guy who wins a lot more than he loses.

We were talking about young birds and routing. He said that his young birds never route. They just stay near the loft and circle.

Yet, he wins most of the big money races in young birds, and most of the races period.

I just don't believe him. Some of the other guys say he is full of it. But he seemed sincere when he told me this. I guess it could be true, but seems doubtful to me. Sometimes you can not believe what you hear. Besides all of the stupid commercials on TV, that lie and lie all day long. Why doesn't the FTC or FCC go after these liars on TV commercials? Some are so obviously lies that it defies belief that someone buys their stuff.

But someone always does, sadly.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> I recently had a conversation with one of the more veteran flyers in my combine. A guy who wins a lot more than he loses.
> 
> We were talking about young birds and routing. He said that his young birds never route. They just stay near the loft and circle.
> 
> ...


some people just need to have their little secrets and think they are getting away with it


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

"There are no bad birds"
"If a bird races good any behavior is acceptable"

A good racer scalping its own chicks should never be bred again. Probably shouldn't be raced again either. Something is wrong with that bird. I hope I never have to deal with that situation. Not sure what I would do.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> I recently had a conversation with one of the more veteran flyers in my combine. A guy who wins a lot more than he loses.
> 
> We were talking about young birds and routing. He said that his young birds never route. They just stay near the loft and circle.
> 
> ...


My young birds never even fly I gotta force them to fly by packing them up and bringing them to the house a few times then in the front yard then down the street and so on. Becasue they never fly you can chase them all you want but they like at you like your crazy. All the guys in the club always say my birdfs have to be sick or somthing a young bird should want to fly. It might be a pain getting them going with all those lil short tosses but once I get them going and training the way I do. I win more then my share of young bird races.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I recently had a conversation with one of the more veteran flyers in my combine. A guy who wins a lot more than he loses.
> 
> We were talking about young birds and routing. He said that his young birds never route. They just stay near the loft and circle.
> 
> ...



I would believe him, the birds are flying, so that means they are getting in shape. he just must be one of those that knows a racing homer does not need to be taught how to home, only get in shape to do it... I believe this view.. there was a story a few days ago about a youngster not even flown fly back 60 miles to his hatch loft first time out.. which brings to mind some of the young birds given away or sold could be the winner..


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

_Rotondo on Pigeon Racing_. Toss #1. If they can't make it back from 40 then you might as well not have them anyway. A bit extreme for me, but …


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well if they can't make it back from 40 miles, then I doubt they'll make it back from 500  Also if they don't make it back, then I guess you'll never know how they'd do at longer distances. But if I get my birds back (whether from rescue or them coming in late), I _always_ give them another chance. As long as they're here, they'll fly. Even if they always come in last place, they're still coming home. So I'll still send them out.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Jaysen said:


> "There are no bad birds"
> "If a bird races good any behavior is acceptable"
> 
> A good racer scalping its own chicks should never be bred again. Probably shouldn't be raced again either. Something is wrong with that bird. I hope I never have to deal with that situation. Not sure what I would do.


If he's scalping his own babies, then I wouldn't breed from him. If he turns out to be a super racer, then I might breed, just foster his eggs, and see how his offspring act. Hopefully they'll inherit his good racing ability, and not his love for beating up on little kids  If they too become scalpers, that'll be the end of it. They'll probably race, but never breed. Agression to the point of nearly killing other birds is not something I want to breed for.
Birds who scalp others are usually very aggressive, dominant, and territorial. I could see them being useful in old bird racing when the love of home, their mate, and their territory could be really good motivation for these mean birds.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yes it is hard to beleive some of the old timers TALES.
But still listen close--If they tell you a pigeon can pull a Fright train---couple them up.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> I recently had a conversation with one of the more veteran flyers in my combine. A guy who wins a lot more than he loses.
> 
> We were talking about young birds and routing. He said that his young birds never route. They just stay near the loft and circle.
> 
> ...


I don't race but I wouldn't dismiss this. Have heard that many beach side fanciers (fishermen) here don't do the route trainings or road trainings but their pigeons do home.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> He said that his young birds never route. They just stay near the loft and circle.
> 
> Yet, he wins most of the big money races in young birds, and most of the races period.


My birds never route. It is how I feed and how I train. He just isn't telling you the whole story that is what I believe.

My birds are not alowed to land on the ground. The only place I ever want them to land is on the loft or landing board. Now, when they land they need to be heading for the trap. They never have open loft and they never get to just set around out side. They are trained from trap training on when they are released they go in the loft to eat. That is why my birds never route.

Ace


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

that lost homers can't survive in the wild. i routinely see a flock of lost homers with 2008 bands, and there's people who report capturing lost 2003 pigeons whose loft shut down back in... 2003 when all the birds were set free.


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

I think everyone gives their opinion based soley on their own experiences. It's natural. 

I enjoy these boards so much because while I am pretty experienced with birds (former zookeeper/rehabber), I'm a complete neophyte with homing pigeons/lofts, etc. I enjoy hearing the different versions of feeding, training. I pick up some great tips. I use what I can and put the rest aside.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> If you talk to ten different flyers they will tell you ten ways to do something. I am opening this thread to give us a place to find out some of what we should believe and what we shouldn't.
> 
> To kick things off, here is something I have heard from several flyers. " If in the raising of a young bird everything is not perfect it will never make a good racer".
> 
> ...


Hello Ace !


That is the problem with quoting "absolutes". There will always be someone, somewhere, that has a single different experience, and from that single event, will draw totally different conclusions.

Now, if that fancier had said, if you take a 100 sickly, underfed babies in the nest, and you record this situation.....and then compare their racing success to the very well fed, healthy and robust babies, 80% of the time, or whatever number you care to use, the sickly, underfed will under perform the well fed healthy babies. 

That is the challenge as I see it. Your typical fancier is not a college trained scientist. A few experiences, and he draws all kinds of perspective on a very small sampling or experiences. Like if he drinks tea (the fancier not the pigeons) the day before shipping, and he has a great race day. He may very well assume, that drinking tea on shipping day, somehow magically, increases his chances of winning races.

This is why, IMHO...many fanciers with many years of experience, have not gotten any better as fanciers. They just keep doing the same things over and over again...expecting different results....or sipping lots of tea on shipping day....because it had worked so well once back in the 1980's....

And then there are fanciers...who whenever they hear of something...no matter how screw ball of an idea....that someone else had done...then they are right there as a "Me To"...and doing the same stupid thing. And just because someone had their crazy ideas put to paper, or now days an Internet article...for some reason...it has more creditability. So, I really don't know what percentage of things you should believe. But, I am thinking that it might be possible that all these "new" stupid ideas....are available now then when I was a kid...because of the computer. You would think all this wealth of knowledge would make for better fanciers....but I suspect that quite possibly, the opposite has occurred. 

More "Information"...."Ideas"......may really have just confused more people into doing what they hear everyone else is doing. In some cases, simply take your own brain, common sense if you will...and throw it out the window. 

Take 20 successful fanciers doing things 20 different ways...and then take a little of this...and 1/2 of that....and various parts you think you understood from these 20 different folks.....and what could you have ? A really screwed up mess. 

Start with a mentor who has a good solid foundation or understanding of management of pigeons. Learn from him and his methods and don't try to listen to 19 other people giving you their two cents. Once you have the basics mastered....which could take some time. Then perhaps you might explore what others might know, that your mentor does not. Same basic old school ideas of learning an art form...be it Music, Karate or Pigeon Racing.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Start with a mentor who has a good solid foundation or understanding of management of pigeons. Learn from him and his methods and don't try to listen to 19 other people giving you their two cents. Once you have the basics mastered....which could take some time. Then perhaps you might explore what others might know, that your mentor does not. Same basic old school ideas of learning an art form...be it Music, Karate or Pigeon Racing.


This. This is wisdom. This is how one _learns_. I feel like I have learned more, with out a bird in my loft, than some of the 5 year racers in our club. My mentor lets my son and I work in his loft. We handle his birds. We measure, take notes, ask questions. He has given us spare equipment, inspected our loft plans and post build, and even helped us get approval for our loft from the village board. Maybe i am old school, but apprenticeship worked way back. Still works today.

He has helped us set realistic goals that other members thought were too low:
1. Fly one OB race in '11 
2. Have a full YB team in '12. 
3. In '13 we should be able to put up a good standing, top 10, in at least one race. 

Everyone else started telling how we could do better with this medication or that feed plan. We don't even have birds! How can they tell us that we can do better then the #2 guy they are all losing too? 

SFL, I read your 2008 notes about a 13 year old member. My boy is 13. Any tips? Feel free to PM me. I have already dragged this thread off topic enough.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

There are but a few solid foundations to pigeon racing That work well for most. And the birds Must be trained to respond to the persons methods. Part of the reasons many change birds out is because Family lines were trained in certion methods then are asked to perform in a new method. Which takes agin years ofd selection. Far as Karate Traditional karate has its training method That is handed down. But at times not understood So the meaning gets lost. Then application is the person. That my friend is where it seperates agin As The ART this being Karate only lives inside that person So as anything we do It must show results to show it works. BIRDS x person = results. And yes I do have over 38 years in martial arts So I can safely say a little about it.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

Mentor ??
Man I wish I could find one that would work with me. I had one that I would go to and he just told me about his high $ birds that he bought. Nothing about taking care of the birds, or flying them. I have learned more from reading, watching videos, and this site than anything. If I could only find a mentor that would take the time to work with me I would be in heaven. Yes even if some of it was just old timer BS it would sure help me along. 
I will just keep reading … and still not believe everything I read LOL


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

eyespyer said:


> Mentor ??
> Man I wish I could find one that would work with me. I had one that I would go to and he just told me about his high $ birds that he bought. Nothing about taking care of the birds, or flying them. I have learned more from reading, watching videos, and this site than anything. If I could only find a mentor that would take the time to work with me I would be in heaven. Yes even if some of it was just old timer BS it would sure help me along.
> I will just keep reading … and still not believe everything I read LOL


Just having a mentor will not do you much good if he is not a good mentor. There are to many in this sport who are afraid to give up their secrets. I have seen old timers mess up a new young up and comer just because they were afraid of the competition he might bring being right on the line of flight.

You must be carefull when picking a mentor. Don't just take the first guy that offers to help you but talk to several and find one you can comunicate with and build a lasting relationship with. Now you have someone who will take you under his wing and help you succeed in this sport.

Ace


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

O K Folks--PLEASE--put your location--It may be a flyer close-by that would be glad to help and show you a few things. There are NO SECRETS. Good clean feed-Good training-
Pigeons are creatures of habits. We all do the same things--Just maybe in a different way.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> _Rotondo on Pigeon Racing_. Toss #1. If they can't make it back from 40 then you might as well not have them anyway. A bit extreme for me, but …


This might have been convered somewhere already...but does anyone know how Rotondo did as a racer? Did he win alot? Also I when I was reading your post I was thinking I dont ever here of anybody having Rotondo pigeons as there bloodline...is there a reason for this?

Roy


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well if they can't make it back from 40 miles, then I doubt they'll make it back from 500  Also if they don't make it back, then I guess you'll never know how they'd do at longer distances. But if I get my birds back (whether from rescue or them coming in late), I _always_ give them another chance. As long as they're here, they'll fly. Even if they always come in last place, they're still coming home. So I'll still send them out.


I am right here with you for the most part...this is the reason I bought a few hospital pens..well Foys sells them as breeding pens but i use them as a sick bay...so if for some reason i do get a very late arrival i can give them another chance without them getting the rest of birds sick....its very nice to have options.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Airbaby said:


> This might have been convered somewhere already...but does anyone know how Rotondo did as a racer? Did he win alot? Also I when I was reading your post I was thinking I dont ever here of anybody having Rotondo pigeons as there bloodline...is there a reason for this?
> 
> Roy


From what I have read he was a "legend" in his own time. Depending on who you listen too he was too successful and was conspired against to keep his birds grounded. His methods were/are controversial (aggressive inbreeding and culling, extreme training). 

He did have a strain based on Bricoux (Rotondo-Bricoux). From his own writings he was not all that thrilled about selling his strain. He felt others were exploiting his work for their own profit. I expect that he kept the line so tight and was so protective of his birds that none ever left his control.

Just my 2¢.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> From what I have read he was a "legend" in his own time. Depending on who you listen too he was too successful and was conspired against to keep his birds grounded. His methods were/are controversial (aggressive inbreeding and culling, extreme training).
> 
> He did have a strain based on Bricoux (Rotondo-Bricoux). From his own writings he was not all that thrilled about selling his strain. He felt others were exploiting his work for their own profit. I expect that he kept the line so tight and was so protective of his birds that none ever left his control.
> 
> Just my 2¢.


Thanks for sharing, for as long as i can remember I have heard his name but never have asked until now what you just covered...wonder what ended up happening to his birds...maybe he culled them all so nobody would benifit from them...i could see how someone could beocome disgruntle if they were conspired against to stop them from racing.....I have a feeling he has passed on already, but am wondering if he is still alive?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Died of a heart attack. I think he was 38 or 48. I am unable to verify. His book was originally published in 1981. He was clearly very bitter. I do believe that his flock was destroyed but I can find no proof of it. The 'net is very quiet about him. What I know is from the book my mentor is loaning me and the awe with which "Rotondo" it whispered. 

Some things that I am really struggling with is the culling. I understand his view and have no issues with it in concept. But the extremes to which he took it… I defective bird, a mortally wounded bird, a bird that has serious issues (killing young consistently). But just because it is a check and it should have been a bar? 

If you can afford a copy, they are $50 on most sites, It is certainly worth a read. Or seven.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> Died of a heart attack. I think he was 38 or 48. I am unable to verify. His book was originally published in 1981. He was clearly very bitter. I do believe that his flock was destroyed but I can find no proof of it. The 'net is very quiet about him. What I know is from the book my mentor is loaning me and the awe with which "Rotondo" it whispered.
> 
> Some things that I am really struggling with is the culling. I understand his view and have no issues with it in concept. But the extremes to which he took it… I defective bird, a mortally wounded bird, a bird that has serious issues (killing young consistently). But just because it is a check and it should have been a bar?
> 
> If you can afford a copy, they are $50 on most sites, It is certainly worth a read. Or seven.


Will check it out, the things you mentioned sound pretty extreme.....I have other books, i suppose Rotondo will be the next one i add to the small but growing collection...thanks for your input


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Not to put anyone down or prevent anyone from making a buck or ten. But in this day and age, do y'all find it necessary to spend money on books?

I mean, many are available at the library, and more often than not, if there is a subject you desire to read up on, you can find out all about it on the internet. You just have to know how to use google and the correct words.

Am I wrong about needing books still? I'm just asking. Because it seems to me that whenever I want to know something, I find the answer on the internet 99.9% of the time.

Many times on this very site.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jaysen said:


> Died of a heart attack. I think he was 38 or 48. I am unable to verify. His book was originally published in 1981. He was clearly very bitter. I do believe that his flock was destroyed but I can find no proof of it. The 'net is very quiet about him. What I know is from the book my mentor is loaning me and the awe with which "Rotondo" it whispered.
> 
> Some things that I am really struggling with is the culling. I understand his view and have no issues with it in concept. But the extremes to which he took it… I defective bird, a mortally wounded bird, a bird that has serious issues (killing young consistently). But just because it is a check and it should have been a bar?
> 
> If you can afford a copy, they are $50 on most sites, It is certainly worth a read. Or seven.


You will find most top lofts cull extremley . this does not mean killing But for sure removing the birds. The only way to get a good selection of birds is to remove the lesser birds. with out this method you move in the wrong direction. And then line breeding and inbreeding many a loft went that direction And out crossed on flying birds as well. The only way to really set a family of birds is to line and inbreed the birds. Many now days says the birds do not fly as well. BUT not watching and breeding to tight brings this on. A must if you check past methods is to research your line and use the lets say strain maker line that cross well into those birds. As birds were bred from differnt groups long ago to bring different needs forward. And yes many a top flyer is not thought well of by the other flyers when they keep losing to them. Thats why new clubs get formed to Because every one wants to win rather then learn some times. Best to make friends with the winners and gain there trust then they help you. look at some of the old belgiums they know there birds so well and there birds know them so well a trust built with each other bird and man they and the birds learned to wrk together. Finding that nick to see what birds responded to there method And what birds did not. And THe big secert is THEY did not over work there birds . Heck some place do not even race the birds if the temp is over 85 degrees In the USA many rush rush rush the birds and wonder what went wrong. You have to know what you want to find what line of birds respond to your methods. Young bird people need fast maturing lines that can compete well as young birds.. Distance racers need difernt lines as well. ITS a breeders art be it race or show to find a awy to move up the line. NOT to worry about wining but about improving one year after another Remember when we run to fast we get tierd try to build a loft to fast same thing You make the mistakes and restart with differrent birds and more birds. Waste of time and money when you sit down look back and say why didnt i do this years ago. I allways said we have to learn to walk beofe we can ever run.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> Not to put anyone down or prevent anyone from making a buck or ten. But in this day and age, do y'all find it necessary to spend money on books?
> 
> I mean, many are available at the library, and more often than not, if there is a subject you desire to read up on, you can find out all about it on the internet. You just have to know how to use google and the correct words.
> 
> ...


I sit at a computer all day to put food on the table. Based on the time I am typing this I sit at a computer at home as well. But when I am on the deck, or sitting where the loft is, i don't want an LCD. I want paper.

As to spending money on books: You spend on what has value to you. For some it is a harley. For me it is books. I have a library. Not down the street, in my living room. I loan books to folks that the library won't cary. Books like Rotondo. 

Since I mentioned the "for a living", my occupation reminds me daily, that the world of information sits on a fine edge separating our current level of enlightenment from the dark ages. When there is no electricity of what value will the electronic documents be? 

Think about it for a minute.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

re lee,

If the birds are not "good enough" for the originating loft, what real option is there other than killing? Releasing them to the wild is unconscionable to both the public image of the pigeon fancier, as well as to the health and well being of the birds. Selling the inferior birds will just frustrate some newcomer and reduce your credibility with other fanciers as a "junk feather merchant". I am left with the conclusion that culling will ultimately result in death, so it is _my_ responsibility to ensure the birds are treated humanly. 

I agree that culling is critical to development of a line. I also see in breeding as a means to an end. That I worry about the implications of these actions shows that I have not lost my humanity. My mind, yes. Humanity no.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Not to start an entirely different thread here and now. But one does not have to cull at all.

Just keep sending them to the races until they improve or don't You can also keep them but just not breed from them.

That is what I do. Yes, it is a form of culling to keep sending them to the races. But it is letting the basket do the culling and not the big guy towering over the little pigeon. Many threads have commented on how often banded birds are seen living in the wild. At the parks in many downtown locations. With continuing to send them to the races, they have a chance, either of showing something better, or of living in the wild. With traditional culling, they have no chance.

Which would you rather have God do with you? Give you a chance out in the land of Nod, or cull you?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

If he chose to cull, I bet the world would be a better place!

The problem is that "banded birds are seen living in the wild" creates the situation where a 13 year old boy had to go stand in front of a government council to get permission to have 30 birds. The village: We pay to have those things removed from the hall. How will you assure us you won't make it worse? 

It is this perception by the non-fancier that we should strive to correct. We all claim that we love the birds, but instead of taking responsibility for our population overruns we simply hope they don't come home. We sterilize cats. We dispatch mice and rats. To the general public our birds _*are*_ a nuisance. 

The two things that we know we will need to do:
1. Tightly controlled breeding schedule.
2. Make the hard decision to cull properly. 

Kid and I are still working through this.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

Jaysen said:


> If he chose to cull, I bet the world would be a better place!
> 
> The problem is that "banded birds are seen living in the wild" creates the situation where a 13 year old boy had to go stand in front of a government council to get permission to have 30 birds. The village: We pay to have those things removed from the hall. How will you assure us you won't make it worse?
> 
> ...


There's no such problem from lost homers living in the wild. The vast majority of pigeons pooping on cars and buildings are ferals. Their population is only controlled via available food sources. It's unfair to blame pigeon fanciers for it. The net effect of releasing unwanted racing homers in the wild just has new birds competing against the ferals, with no impact on total pigeon population.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

sky tx said:


> O K Folks--PLEASE--put your location--It may be a flyer close-by that would be glad to help and show you a few things. There are NO SECRETS. Good clean feed-Good training-
> Pigeons are creatures of habits. We all do the same things--Just maybe in a different way.


I am in South West Oklahoma Lawton area


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jaysen said:


> re lee,
> 
> If the birds are not "good enough" for the originating loft, what real option is there other than killing? Releasing them to the wild is unconscionable to both the public image of the pigeon fancier, as well as to the health and well being of the birds. Selling the inferior birds will just frustrate some newcomer and reduce your credibility with other fanciers as a "junk feather merchant". I am left with the conclusion that culling will ultimately result in death, so it is _my_ responsibility to ensure the birds are treated humanly.
> 
> I agree that culling is critical to development of a line. I also see in breeding as a means to an end. That I worry about the implications of these actions shows that I have not lost my humanity. My mind, yes. Humanity no.


You can give the birds away. And thats where peddlers come in to good use. Give them to them They sell them at swap meetes and such for a few bucks And people are happy to get them NOW remember when culling any bird you get rid of is your cull. BUT often better them some one elses. And selling the old concept was never sell a bird you would not be will to use. Then you maintain a higher respect to your self. BUT yes many people sell every spare bird they have BUt thats them.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

eyespyer said:


> I am in South West Oklahoma Lawton area


Is the lawton racing club still around . I got some birds from one the members back in the 80s Who brought them back from germany when he was in the service.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Try---Fred stephens-----580-529-3139--Lawton Ok.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

re lee said:


> Is the lawton racing club still around . I got some birds from one the members back in the 80s Who brought them back from germany when he was in the service.


Ya I think a total of five members, Ted Evens I know for sure but have had a hard time getting with him. I think he is the secretary - need to get with him on what clock to get. A guy named Mike, that at this moment he is not talking to me (long story), not my fault... But I do not know the others. I do know that they raced with RICK MARDIS from CBS old birds this last spring. I think because the group is so small. That is all I know.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

sky tx said:


> Try---Fred stephens-----580-529-3139--Lawton Ok.


Fred 
That's the name I was looking for 
Thanks !!! I will give him a call. I understand he is quite a talker


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

eyespyer said:


> Ya I think a total of five members, Ted Evens I know for sure but have had a hard time getting with him. I think he is the secretary - need to get with him on what clock to get. A guy named Mike, that at this moment he is not talking to me (long story), not my fault... But I do not know the others. I do know that they raced with RICK MARDIS from CBS old birds this last spring. I think because the group is so small. That is all I know.


I thought Rick was in Texas now But his boy still is in OKC and they fly with the PRO club And birds are loaded at the world of wings. Enid club was flying in the combine with them also. Theres a club to in wichita Falls.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

I think Rick wakes up in a different part of the world ever moring.
He sold his loft in Texas to the Denton Pigeon Club and is in Oklahoma now.
Doing 2 one loft races.
Thats the last I heard.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Not to put anyone down or prevent anyone from making a buck or ten. But in this day and age, do y'all find it necessary to spend money on books?
> 
> I mean, many are available at the library, and more often than not, if there is a subject you desire to read up on, you can find out all about it on the internet. You just have to know how to use google and the correct words.
> 
> ...


I am only on the internet a few times a week, so a book at home is good for me, i like to read things over and over since i tend to miss alot of things the first few times i read something....I plan on racing pigeons for the rest of my life God willing..so for me a another pigeon book is not a bad thing. I do understand where you are coming from though.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, understand where you are coming from, Conditionfreak. AND, I know that technology is the wave of the future and now...

However, reading a book and reading the computer are TWO VERY DIFFERENT things to me...Then, again, I was born waaay ( well, OK, waay) before your time.

Staring at a computer screen for hours on end does *not* beat reading a book, imho...

Have no fear....if we survive...technology will continue marching along and books, newspapers and many more things will be a thing of the past...

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

sky tx said:


> I think Rick wakes up in a different part of the world ever moring.
> He sold his loft in Texas to the Denton Pigeon Club and is in Oklahoma now.
> Doing 2 one loft races.
> Thats the last I heard.


Does he still have a loft in belgium and race there still Im kind of out of the loop any more. Just like i can not remember the Vet Dr /// in tulsa That has a partner loft in belguim And races theres And in tulsa Antione Jacop Birds And is good friends with mike ganus. And has some of his birds to. Just rembered his name Dr Lamberton. Has a good useful web site a person could learn some good info there And follow his blog on his training the bird. www. pigeonracingpigeons.com Might give it a look Scoll down and read some of his writings and look at his pictures.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Not to put anyone down or prevent anyone from making a buck or ten. But in this day and age, do y'all find it necessary to spend money on books?
> 
> I mean, many are available at the library, and more often than not, if there is a subject you desire to read up on, you can find out all about it on the internet. You just have to know how to use google and the correct words.
> 
> ...


 The problem with pigeon books....is what liabrary can you go to, that has all the pigeon books....say like the "Rotondo on Racing Pigeons" Copyright 1980 by Joe Rontondo...since his name was mentioned. Here is a reprint you can buy for $50 see : http://www.avianpublications.com/items/doves/itemB17.htm

The Publishers Introduction in my 1980 edition, speaks of his death around March 1980 of a heart attack while flying his birdsat age 52. So the information within the book is what was working back in the 1970's. 

But let's say you read all of the books ever written about pigeons which I imagine one could do in a matter of weeks if you are a good reader....what would that mean ? You are now an "Expert" ?

I understand the importance of self education....as I read a few hours every day. But I can't help but think of this one fellow I know....which I won't use his name because he is a friend of mine. But if there was a pigeon book written, he has read it, and most likely can go to his pigeon liabrary and pull out the book. He acts and talks like a walking liabray....last year was the first time in a half dozen years that he made it to the 1st YB race, but after about 3 races or so...he was finished for the season. My point is, he has the so called "Book Learning"....but at least in this case.....those books did not translate into him becoming a capable fancier. 

Now if just reading a list of books was the answer, then all we would have to do is read what has already been written and what would that mean ? We are now empowered with the knowledge to become great pigeon fanciers ? 

The methods that Joe used, just during the seven or so years it took him to write the book, he admits had changed. So, I am sure that if he was alive today and racing, his methods might very well have changed as well. If they didn't, then I am just as sure, that he might very well have ended like so many other old men, who once upon a time, had their day in the sun, but their methods and systems, and perhaps birds, could not keep up with the progress. 

What is my point ? Reading books about pigeons can be very entertaining. But, I am not sure that attempting to follow lets say, a book of methods that were used in the 1970's....may not exactly place you on the cutting edge of pigeon racing today. And reading a whole bunch of books, has been a classic way in which one can learn, but at the end of the day, I don't think one can master this art form by reading the ideas of others. If that were the case, then my local friend would be at the top of the Combine, instead of near the bottom. 

This is not to suggest, that people should not read books. But simply because someone has written their ideas onto paper, or has placed an article onto the Internet, does not make those ideas anymore true, then if someone is telling you something at your local club and right to your face.

So....like everything else in life, you can't listen to everything you hear...or everything you read. And I am sorry, I really don't have the answer as to how everyone can discern fact from fiction concerning this subject of pigeons, or any other subject. 

I am challenged with the task of decerning truth from fiction everyday as I deal with people in my business. I don't think it is any different with the pigeon game.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warrne you are right Anbd wrong First yes From a book you learn certion things But if you remember in any educating prat of life The person fit the application.. And that application Is the field study of what you do. Book = theory. Applying that means personal knowledge at application of use. Finding the modified methods that wrk for that person. NOW years ago I read and owned many a pigeon book. bUT as years went by I did not read them so much if at all. Because I like others had taken from them What i needed to use . Now It would be nice to have info from the differnt lines of birds From the breeder his self Reading the hows he got his birds to respond and selction and trainingmethods. This helps in undrestanding How a certion line can work for you. As thoise birds were what trained to that method and gave responce to that type of training. I like many have seen people come and go. People with a few years of keeping the birds that no one could tell any thing to them any more And they new more then the old timers. They would win But not be that consistant. Learning by doing and learning from people in the hobby Is great as long as A certion amount of respect is given. Hobby is much more then winning any race. Because every race you think you win Some one else can win to. But learning from the birds and youself along with great old timers that made the sport go forward Is what the hobby makes the future for. BUT I bet some of those 70s 60s 50s birds could still compete well today. BECAUSE they were that good.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> Warrne you are right Anbd wrong First yes From a book you learn certion things But if you remember in any educating prat of life The person fit the application.. And that application Is the field study of what you do. Book = theory. Applying that means personal knowledge at application of use. Finding the modified methods that wrk for that person. NOW years ago I read and owned many a pigeon book. bUT as years went by I did not read them so much if at all. Because I like others had taken from them What i needed to use . Now It would be nice to have info from the differnt lines of birds From the breeder his self Reading the hows he got his birds to respond and selction and trainingmethods. This helps in undrestanding How a certion line can work for you. As thoise birds were what trained to that method and gave responce to that type of training. I like many have seen people come and go. *People with a few years of keeping the birds that no one could tell any thing to them any more *And they new more then the old timers. They would win But not be that consistant. Learning by doing and learning from people in the hobby Is great as long as A certion amount of respect is given. Hobby is much more then winning any race. Because every race you think you win Some one else can win to. But learning from the birds and youself along with great old timers that made the sport go forward Is what the hobby makes the future for. BUT I bet some of those 70s 60s 50s birds could still compete well today. BECAUSE they were that good.


Well...most of the time I am right....but what part was I wrong ? There are plenty of books with plenty of pigeon theories out there....some IMHO...one could spend a life time following, and you would be simply following your own tail. 

And some guys do not need years to know it all....typically it is about two years...but with some, it could be as little as six months ! 

And I don't know about those 50s 60s or 70s birds....if they were that good....then breeders must not have been doing very much these last 40...50....or 60 years.....sixty generations and the birds are not a whole lot better ?

If that is the case, then perhaps it's time for everyone to go back to school and read some more books and figure out why that would be the case !!


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Wish I could find the article written by an Expert pigeon breeder who said "my pigeons can pull a fright train"--couple them up.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well...most of the time I am right....but what part was I wrong ? There are plenty of books with plenty of pigeon theories out there....some IMHO...one could spend a life time following, and you would be simply following your own tail.
> 
> And some guys do not need years to know it all....typically it is about two years...but with some, it could be as little as six months !
> 
> ...


Well You can learn from BOOKS But you must use them to apply your methods. If a person can learn it all in 2 years And some in six months THEN I must have been really dumb. I was still leraning to the day I could no longer keep the birds. As you learn a little here a little there over your entire life time. Liker to meet that great person who can learn it in 2 years And mostly the ones that can learn it all in 6 months. Yes those old bird if we could match them up with todays birds would indeed hold there own. You say we would not have advanced much well racing pigeons have a hidden part There abilty to get home and fight to get there HEART as its called. There body structure has changed some but not that much. Every generation of new breeders Have what they have to work with. Steven vanbreeman when he reorganized his approach He did what Back bred to get as close as he could to A very old line Then cultivate the birds then race them Its hard to maintain the birds just a few take them forward a slow set of time. How many top birds today trace back to those top birds of the past. Speeds today are not that much different then in the past. I know In the past many people bred less birds and lost less birds But i know we for more dangers to the birds today. If the birds today was so much better then the yester birds Then tell me why More birds are imported here in the U S A. Because lets face ir most are getting it wrong They can not or will not take the time to better the stock why is that the europe countries can do so. When every other breed of pigeon has been improved most in THe U S A and those breeds did vastly improve from the past to so near standards. im not saying every body is wrong But YOU can not hit the ground running and get there fast with out falling down practice some of the true racers ways because they made it work And results happen not over night. And most great birds are far between. Keys from the past for keys to the future. But like I said I sure must have been a slow learner that it took me a lifetime and never learned it all.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

re lee said:


> Well You can learn from BOOKS But you must use them to apply your methods. If a person can learn it all in 2 years And some in six months THEN I must have been really dumb. I was still leraning to the day I could no longer keep the birds. As you learn a little here a little there over your entire life time. Liker to meet that great person who can learn it in 2 years And mostly the ones that can learn it all in 6 months. Yes those old bird if we could match them up with todays birds would indeed hold there own. You say we would not have advanced much well racing pigeons have a hidden part There abilty to get home and fight to get there HEART as its called. There body structure has changed some but not that much. Every generation of new breeders Have what they have to work with. Steven vanbreeman when he reorganized his approach He did what Back bred to get as close as he could to A very old line Then cultivate the birds then race them Its hard to maintain the birds just a few take them forward a slow set of time. How many top birds today trace back to those top birds of the past. Speeds today are not that much different then in the past. I know In the past many people bred less birds and lost less birds But i know we for more dangers to the birds today. If the birds today was so much better then the yester birds Then tell me why More birds are imported here in the U S A. Because lets face ir most are getting it wrong They can not or will not take the time to better the stock why is that the europe countries can do so. When every other breed of pigeon has been improved most in THe U S A and those breeds did vastly improve from the past to so near standards. im not saying every body is wrong But YOU can not hit the ground running and get there fast with out falling down practice some of the true racers ways because they made it work And results happen not over night. And most great birds are far between. Keys from the past for keys to the future. But like I said I sure must have been a slow learner that it took me a lifetime and never learned it all.


I like that I think its a really interesting point of view, sure know I'm not smart enough to come up with that.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

You ever hear "keep it simple stupid" well thats somthing that pigeon flyers should have in their head. I think most ppl just over do stuff with the birds and make everything complicated when it really isn't all that hard to be a good flyer. The thing that messes alot of ppl up is they read this and that watch this video or that video and try to put everything together thinking they are gonna make the new best system but all you get is a hodge podge of stuff that should never be mixed. And once you get into the habit of doing things wrong it's hard to change.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft,

I think I am with you. My "position" on Rotondo, or any book on any topic, is as a guide to one form of success. In my professional world printed material is out of date the minute it is printed, but the books do tell you how it _was_ done, the foundation of the new. One this foundation is explored and understood with a moderate level of confidence then you are able to understand the "why" of the new methods. 

In surveying my club and combine, all the winners and high placers say they started with Rotondo. In reading, rereading, and asking questions like "why do you do X when he does Y" I am able to see how they are successful. From there I can attempt to duplicate their success by understanding what works in my area. Note that I am not duplicating _what they do_, I am understanding what they do to be successful. 

Experience is everything. Failure is normal (only one winner, right?). Learning is observing your surroundings to make informed changes to decrease your chances of failure. This applies to pigeons, child rearing, business, technology, and everything else in life. 

All this to make the statement that I fully expect that I will toss much of the book stuff to the side once I actually get past the "beginners" stage of all this. I expect that will be in teh next 20 years or so


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

sky tx said:


> Yes it is hard to beleive some of the old timers TALES.
> But still listen close--If they tell you a pigeon can pull a Fright train---couple them up.


Spoken like an old timer. LOL


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Books, the written word is what separates Prehistoric history from history. Prehistoric we do not know much about because nothing was written. The history of many cultures are a wealth of knowledge we use today due to the written word. 

"The written word allows us to communicate with the dead, the absent, and the yet unborn," Abe Lincoln.

Even as you read this I have communicated my thoughts to you, and you are absent from me. I also gave you Lincoln's thoughts and he is dead.

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it," George Santayana. I am sure Warren that where you are in your training, breeding, and feeding is from the trials and lessons learned from people before you. Even some who has passed. And I am quite sure you have done your reading to get where you are today.

God Bless,
Tony

PS "The pen is mightier than the sword," Edward Bulwer-Lytton.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the books I think are important are the ones dealing with health and pigeon keeping, lists of diseases and how to treat them or prevent them, you have them on hand to go to when something arises... now as far as racing goes, I think I would rather learn from a mentor and add my own approch with trial and error... you have to make mistakes to learn.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pigeon0446 said:


> You ever hear "keep it simple stupid" well thats somthing that pigeon flyers should have in their head. I think most ppl just over do stuff with the birds and make everything complicated when it really isn't all that hard to be a good flyer. The thing that messes alot of ppl up is they read this and that watch this video or that video and try to put everything together thinking they are gonna make the new best system but all you get is a hodge podge of stuff that should never be mixed. And once you get into the habit of doing things wrong it's hard to change.


I do not think most are trying to hard. i think many are getting birds And know little of the line history. every new so called name strain Which really today has little real strain lines . But If joe Breeds and races very well and then The US big boys buy the bird advertise it And sell its young for big bucks People think better get one or a few And Train the young much different and race them in a much different way they get less results. ALL birds must be trained in a way to get responce Simplicity is the end stage of development and as a person learns and does Then they just DO. what they DO. AMERICA racing is so much more spread out has much smaller races then the counterpart countries. AND there are some of the best race birds brought to this country BUT failed to be bred right by many And sold like a blue light special at K MART. Making for so many plain jane birds called race birds with a super pedigree ,that could never make decent race birds then people try to work with that also Because on paper the bird should beable to fly around the world in 60 seconds. That is a big down fall . Then todays prices are way to high BUT when people pay the price then its expected. The best birds never really costed that much Just selective breeding and regulating the loft AND many years built the loft to where it could stand tead fast. AND then anger many a flyer hates not winning and finds excuses and excuses. That not right We must learn from any loosing thing and wqork to improve. And from a win look at what helped get the win. SO every day we should learn Sure anybody can race there birds and learn a good amount in a couple of years. But if they stop learning because they think they know it all Then they lost any futurew gains to the hobby. Do not have to try every thing or change every so often just try to understand the birds in hand And develop the minds eye on what You understand. Braggerts are the worst losers And the best winners enjoy but never boast of there wins .


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jaysen said:


> SmithFamilyLoft,
> 
> *I think I am with you. *My "position" on Rotondo, or any book on any topic, is as a guide to one form of success. In my professional world printed material is out of date the minute it is printed, but the books do tell you how it _was_ done, the foundation of the new. One this foundation is explored and understood with a moderate level of confidence then you are able to understand the "why" of the new methods.
> 
> ...


And I think I agree with you ! .........

I am sure I could have articulated my message better....and people might think I was down talking the value of reading articles and such. But, I was simply trying to put it all into some kind of perspective.

Going to school and reading some books, all has it's place. But, at some point, you have to put your helmet on, and get into the game. The only reason why I was motivated to contribute to this discussion, concerning what you should believe.....from what you hear....or read. I was reminded of this writer of many pigeon articles. He is an entertaining writer, so I followed many of his different published writings on the subject of racing pigeons in many different forums. After some time, we exchanged some emails on our ideas and theories. After a half dozen emails I discovered a little point about this man that changed my view on many of his written articles. Turns out, he was a pure academic. He has pigeons, but does not race them. And here he was sharing his ideas on breeding with the world, while carefully hiding the fact, that he himself, has never bred any race winners. He is all 100% pure theory. And his major sport or hobby, is writing articles and telling people how they can breed pigeons to win races. 

My point is....many people have read his work. He writes with such authority as to how pigeons should be selected and paired, and he even does an evaluation of birds for a fee. But, all this and from a man, that has not done any of the racing himself. Which is why, I made some of my comments about reading books, articles, or simply listening to someone sell their ideas on pigeon racing. There may be some value in reading or listening to some folks...but at the end of it all...you have to roll up your sleeves and get in there and learn from doing yourself.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> ......If a person can learn it all in 2 years And some in six months THEN I must have been really dumb.....Liker to meet that great person who can learn it in 2 years And mostly the ones that can learn it all in 6 months..... But like I said I sure must have been a slow learner that it took me a lifetime and never learned it all.


If you ever stop by York, Pa. then I can go and introduce you to some of these guys....some lasted a whole season ! Some made it to a couple of races but something beyond their control "Messed them Up" ! Not a whole lot of difference between these new green guys that are able to give lessons on pigeon keeping and many young teenagers. They all know a whole lot more then older folks, and if you don't belive me, then just ask them. 

My reference to the 2 years or less....was not that they actually did learn it all....but that they* thought *they had learned it all ! And now, in the club, you can hear them giving lessons to some other new person. Which I think was the point of this thread.....people who think they have the answers...and now are leading others. 

My suggestion is to take a grain of salt with most free advice, but....that is me.


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## 4nursebee (May 27, 2009)

Thanks for starting this topic ace, it is a gem. I am getting some great advice. Normally I am a coffee drinker, but I saw someone said that drinking tea on race day helped in the 80's? What kind of tea works best? If I am correct, Lipton was all the rage back then.

I am surprised to see some talk here of culling. I forget the context of it, but I had someone tell me such things are not done on this forum...

It has been said in different ways, but in my opinion many follow because someone is leading.

Books have been my saving grace in many hobbies and interests. To get into graduate school it made the path so much easier. Nobody that had gone before me wanted to help all that much. To learn about investing, do you think their are many millionaires helping out of the goodness of their heart or are there just scams selling services? To learn about bees, the local meetings had a bunch of no or grey haired folks that no longer had any bees. And to learn about pigeons, I've had to talk my way into the aviary of a few in the area to get info from them. And guess what? When these folks here who else I've visited with they all hint that the other person should not be listened to...Personally, I take what I want and leave the rest. It is the only form of mentorship I have.

I also drive through York PA a couple times a year, have someone else on my list to visit. So please open the door and serve me some tea when I get there.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

4nursebee said:


> Thanks for starting this topic ace, it is a gem. I am getting some great advice. Normally I am a coffee drinker, but I saw *someone said that drinking tea on race day helped in the 80's? * What kind of tea works best? If I am correct, Lipton was all the rage back then.
> 
> *I am surprised to see some talk here of culling. I forget the context of it, but I had someone tell me such things are not done on this forum...*
> It has been said in different ways, but in my opinion many follow because someone is leading.
> ...


 Tea was old school....I always seem to do better with a brew which is made in Colorado now. They even made an early movie about it, with Bert Reynolds. Anyway they have a special can now which tells you when it is cold enough to drink. Anyway, if you drink to many waiting for the birds to come home late...you end up not really caring that you did not win....that is the best part. There was also a famous pigeon guy named Jonnie Walker, and they still make a brew based on his formula. If it's a particularlly bad race, you drink this stuff after the race. Not too much...or if you are the Race Secretary...you tend to mess up the race reports. 

There is no issue in regards to culling. The key word is "lethal"...or in other words, you can't suggest or get into killing anything. If you have really good pigeons, then the word cull could be replaced by the word sell. No great pigeon flier sells his best birds. If he did, or soon he would no longer have any great birds, because he would have sold them all.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

ace in the hole said:


> You will find this with the long distance birds. Some of the long distance stock does not reach it's peak untill three years of age. They are slow maturing birds. You will usualy not see this with your speed stock or even mid distance birds.


Yes, and they can be real ugly ducklings too !


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Pigeon0446 said:


> My young birds never even fly I gotta force them to fly by packing them up and bringing them to the house a few times then in the front yard then down the street and so on. Becasue they never fly you can chase them all you want but they like at you like your crazy. All the guys in the club always say my birdfs have to be sick or somthing a young bird should want to fly. It might be a pain getting them going with all those lil short tosses but once I get them going and training the way I do. I win more then my share of young bird races.


Yes, it takes all sorts. Some love to fly and others don't but they can still shine equally in the races.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Airbaby said:


> This might have been convered somewhere already...but does anyone know how Rotondo did as a racer? Did he win alot? Also I when I was reading your post I was thinking I dont ever here of anybody having Rotondo pigeons as there bloodline...is there a reason for this?
> 
> Roy


"Rotondo on Racing Pigeons" is a must have. Though many of us (and me for one) will never have the guts to follow his method to the letter...
Having been kept from taking part in races myself, I can understand his feelings about clubs and fanciers when you're not treated fairly because you are a threat to those who don't want to learn but still want to win.
His daughter, Marie, was club secretary after his demise. Maybe you could find something about the birds through her. They lived somewhere near Pennsylvania.
JPS


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> Not to put anyone down or prevent anyone from making a buck or ten. But in this day and age, do y'all find it necessary to spend money on books?
> 
> I mean, many are available at the library, and more often than not, if there is a subject you desire to read up on, you can find out all about it on the internet. You just have to know how to use google and the correct words.
> 
> ...


Those who can give the answers have read the books 
Cheers,
JPS


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I have to agree with Warren, about books and articles, when I first started I read all sorts of books and articles on the internet. I followed most things I read and come race season the first year I was so for behind in the races I wonted to cry. But the next year I did my own thing totally opposite from everything I read and won races. It just takes a little common sense and hard work.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

re lee said:


> You can give the birds away. And thats where peddlers come in to good use. Give them to them They sell them at swap meetes and such for a few bucks And people are happy to get them NOW remember when culling any bird you get rid of is your cull. BUT often better them some one elses. And selling the old concept was never sell a bird you would not be will to use. Then you maintain a higher respect to your self. BUT yes many people sell every spare bird they have BUt thats them.


I wouldn't mind getting "culls" from a top loft but not even the best from the guy who never places in the top 10%. There are culls and culls. 
I feel that if you're honest enough giving away your culls they may help someone improve in some way or use them as feeders for their better birds.
JPS


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If you ever stop by York, Pa. then I can go and introduce you to some of these guys....some lasted a whole season ! Some made it to a couple of races but something beyond their control "Messed them Up" ! Not a whole lot of difference between these new green guys that are able to give lessons on pigeon keeping and many young teenagers. They all know a whole lot more then older folks, and if you don't belive me, then just ask them.
> 
> My reference to the 2 years or less....was not that they actually did learn it all....but that they* thought *they had learned it all ! And now, in the club, you can hear them giving lessons to some other new person. Which I think was the point of this thread.....people who think they have the answers...and now are leading others.
> 
> My suggestion is to take a grain of salt with most free advice, but....that is me.


Now this sounds better I call those types no it alls. And yea there is at least 1 in every club.. And Some go on to be better pigeon people later and many just get mad a get of of the birds because they all ways find excuses because they lost. Bird set in tree. Bird was home 20 minutes before any body elses But refused to trap So on and so on.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovelace said:


> I have to agree with Warren, about books and articles, when I first started I read all sorts of books and articles on the internet. I followed most things I read and come race season the first year I was so for behind in the races I wonted to cry. But the next year I did my own thing totally opposite from everything I read and won races. It just takes a little common sense and hard work.


OK, you said it better and with far fewer words. You hit the nail on the head, and took the words right out of my mouth !! 

If you wanted to learn to play golf, what do you think would be the best approach ?

A) Read a Book on Golf

B) Get on the Golf course and just do it

C) Hire a pro like Tiger Woods to meet you every morning @ 7AM and spend the day golfing together while he gives you some lessons. 

D) All of the above

The correct answer, IMHO is D)

I therefore suspect, that if the sport is say......Pigeon Racing.....that the same kind of rules which makes D) the best answer for the above question....is the same with Pigeon Racing except that Tiger Woods would not be the name used to provide pigeon lessons. 

And if you don't do well, you have an added bonus....you can fire the manager, and blame your failings on him or your instructor. It's didn't work for me in HS, but others may have more sucess. Much of what I have ever learned, did not come from the pages of a book....but came from teachers and other such people, and from life experiences, but that is me.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If you wanted to learn to play golf, what do you think would be the best approach ?
> 
> A) Read a Book on Golf
> 
> ...


The correct answer is D!! Knowledge comes from the reading and teaching of others. Experience is the trials and tribulations from your own life. Wisdom is the ability to put the two together. By choosing "D" you show your wisdom as well as your willingness to share with us on this forum what you feel, see, and experience in your life with pigeons.

Thank you,
Tony


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

re lee said:


> Now this sounds better I call those types no it alls. And yea there is at least 1 in every club.. And Some go on to be better pigeon people later and many just get mad a get of of the birds because they all ways find excuses because they lost. Bird set in tree. Bird was home 20 minutes before any body elses But refused to trap So on and so on.


The ones that say they lost all this time and always have an excuse then quit flying were just lying to make themselves look better. While they really had no clue what they were doing but they had to make themselves feel good by making other ppl think they knew what they were doing. I've had a decent amount of races where I lost time at the loft and I know myself that the birds should have won. But by not winning because of the lost time at the loft just makes me wanna fly the next race even more because I know what I'm doing is working to get them to come home fast. It's not gonna make you quit racing. In the races where I lost the time at the loft I know what the birds really did and thats all that matters.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

jpsnapdy said:


> Those who can give the answers have read the books
> Cheers,
> JPS


Besides disagreeing with this in principal (IMO, those that can give the answers have been there and succeeded at that). You missed my point. I am not saying that one should not read or study up on a subject. What I am saying is that with the internet, one need not spend money on books. Anything you want to know can be found on the internet, or you can ask someone and they will tell you their thoughts on the subject, on the net.

For sure, studying up on a subject is recommended by me. I read constantly. I collect books. From Uncle Tom's Cabin (best book I have ever read), through to Superman comic books and everything in between. I can state without hesitation that what reading skills I possess, are a direct result of reading thousands of comic books when I was a kid. Many had bigger words in them than school books did.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I agree you can not just learn from a book But any reading helps you to get started AND after you have a foundation and understand more YOU can learn from a book As you know more about what is being said And and offered. Just like your job You had to learn And many jobs it started with written training. BOOKS and field traing OJT where you learned to apply the field knowledge. that differs from the book As a controled knowledge. How many have set down and read and read In the BIBLE and the more you read you seem to understand more. Just like when you are visting a loft and talking the birds It the liitle things that you here that stick with you that can make a difference. Pigeon keeping is more and art Of selecting the birds. working the birds Finding the birds that respond well. That sounds easy BUT its not if it was that easy then every one would have a loft of winners. And you have peopl;e that think they can just buy winners and start winning Wrong They may do good even the first year BUT with ont cultivating the birds soon they will have a loft of so so birds. Its a hobby really but some think its life and death and hate coming in second or more. And hat giving info because they are afraid of there birds getting beat. There are some strange people in the racing pigeon hobby More so then other breeds. Many a poor loser When only a handful of people have the right idea and bred the right birds No matter what is said I believe the racing pigeon hobby though good needs reform On selling high dollar JUNK like a crooked used car salesman. Because the truth is If you raise 100 birdseach year 1 is the best 5 are useable to you maybe 15 more could perhaps help some one else. leaves about 80 birds that need removed from your program. And that means not sold to other race people. It takes at least 3 full years from a start to build any decent old bird team Then evaluated each year while introducing prospects. But thats my thoughts It will never happen. Because it does take years to build any loft of good birds And its easy to sell birds So they get sold. NOW yes many a club will give there new comers birds WHICH is great But help rather just give.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Big T said:


> The correct answer is D!! Knowledge comes from the reading and teaching of others. Experience is the trials and tribulations from your own life. Wisdom is the ability to put the two together. By choosing "D" you show your wisdom as well as your willingness to share with us on this forum what you feel, see, and experience in your life with pigeons.
> 
> Thank you,
> Tony


If I was a college professor...you would get an A+ !


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> I don't race but I wouldn't dismiss this. Have heard that many beach side fanciers (fishermen) here don't do the route trainings or road trainings but their pigeons do home.


From what distances ?


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> Besides disagreeing with this in principal (IMO, those that can give the answers have been there and succeeded at that). You missed my point. I am not saying that one should not read or study up on a subject. What I am saying is that with the internet, one need not spend money on books. Anything you want to know can be found on the internet, or you can ask someone and they will tell you their thoughts on the subject, on the net.
> 
> For sure, studying up on a subject is recommended by me. I read constantly. I collect books. From Uncle Tom's Cabin (best book I have ever read), through to Superman comic books and everything in between. I can state without hesitation that what reading skills I possess, are a direct result of reading thousands of comic books when I was a kid. Many had bigger words in them than school books did.


No misunderstanding. This was meant as a joke. I've learnt a lot about racing pigeons on the internet and by asking fanciers, but a book can be referred to regularly if you have interesting things in it, plus I find it easier to stare at than a computer screen, which I regularly do anyway. But finding answers to ALL my questions was not possible on the net some years ago. I love comic books too, indeed all books are worth reading. Knowledge is multiform and one life is not enough. Then one must put the knowledge to practice and find out what works better for him/her. That is where we all make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. I say there is no learning without making mistakes, we're all human.
Cheers,
JPS


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

jpsnapdy said:


> From what distances ?


Maximum toss distances are 80 kms or so but in the absence of a club, you never know whats the actual facts unless having witnessed personaly.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

sky tx said:


> Try---Fred stephens-----580-529-3139--Lawton Ok.


Got with Fred today, nice guy. He told me to get a UNICON clock, I am looking now. He is going to call me back and give me a tour of his lofts. We talked for about 45 min. 

I look forward in learning from him. 

Thanks again for the contact info


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

eyespyer said:


> Got with Fred today, nice guy. He told me to get a UNICON clock, I am looking now. He is going to call me back and give me a tour of his lofts. We talked for about 45 min.
> 
> I look forward in learning from him.
> 
> Thanks again for the contact info


UNIKON clock


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

Wingsonfire said:


> UNIKON clock



Yes LOL sorry for the spelling


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

I had an expert pigeon flyer (a guy that has won big and has had 12 birds on the drop from 500 miles) tell me:

"I don't want to hurt your feelings but this hen will never amount to anything - no fight in her, no spring in the neck when you pull, inferior
body type, crooked keel, etc"

To prove a point, I embarked on giving this pigeon special and preferential treatment during the training and racing season - she in turn won the Federation e1st 325m, 1st 400m, 1st 500m all in the same season and she bred 96th Million Dollar race 400m and several 376m winners.

Since then, one pigeon grader graded a cock bird of mine and said to get rid of it - what he didn't know was that it was a 376mile winner 6 minutes ahead of the next loft.

A good handler can make average pigeons super racers !



ace in the hole said:


> If you talk to ten different flyers they will tell you ten ways to do something. I am opening this thread to give us a place to find out some of what we should believe and what we shouldn't.
> 
> To kick things off, here is something I have heard from several flyers. " If in the raising of a young bird everything is not perfect it will never make a good racer".
> 
> ...


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

irishsyndicate said:


> A good handler can make average pigeons super racers !


That is what I am talking about - now if I can learn to be that good handler !!


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Yeah, and a bad handler won't win crap with super pigeons. Its definitely a team effort.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Matt Bell said:


> Yeah, and a bad handler won't win crap with super pigeons. Its definitely a team effort.


I know of a guy who is what I would consider the worse handler ever. His birds look worse then the birds who live under the bridges around here. They are full of lice and half thier feather look rotted. Well last year he got a bird from an auction. And he clocked that bird in the top 5% in all 5 races he put him in. In my club we have 5 club races and 5 specials in young birds and out of almost 30 lofts he took 3rd club average speed all because that bird. It was the only bird he clocked in those 5 club races. Now maybe he didn't really win crap but it shows a super super bird can still do real good with a crappy handler. I belive there are birds out there that you can't mess up no matter how bad you are. I've seen it when I've gotten side tracked by girls and what not and didn't spend the time I should training and do what needs to be done to keep them where I want them and even then I've still won races. It wasn't me as the handler it was the birds.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

irishsyndicate said:


> A good handler can make average pigeons super racers !


Who says they were average pigeons. Just becasue one guy grades them or doesn't like a certin trait in a bird doesn't mean that the bird wasn't an outstanding pigeon. And from your result those 2 birds won all those races they had to be outstanding just for the fact they beat the rest of your birds. And I'm pretty sure you don't consider the rest of your good stock you have average.


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