# het and homozygous kite?



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

how many doses of kite do you think this bird has? The bird is also some amount of dirty also, comparing the bird to a dirty blue bar of similar age i have i would say just heterozygous. Also is split for recessive red.

I also want to know if you think the bird will molt more like the mother. This bird is just about 1 month of age. 




























the mother i thought was homozygous. The cock is a recessive red mottle which i do not know if he has kite or not. Have gotten 4 birds off them but only two of them are not recessive red/yellow. The first wasn't grizzle and i think is just heterozygous. Heres the mother. She also has some amount of dirty i believe and split for red also.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I would say you are bang on, First one het kite with het rec red to darken it, Second looks **** kite. I think your first one will moult out more like the tippler in my album and not be as dark as the mum.

Kite is hard though as it varys a lot in expression so IMHO we can only guess based on look


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Will just have to wait longer it seems. The first one I bred was also dirty so the hen could be homoygous dirty. Her color is much darker than the first bird above which is richer. I'm planning on breeding the non grizzle son back to the mother hopefully later this year. He should be moulting soon, I'm wondering if I'll see any big changes. I want to take in a pet bird which I would hand raise but I only want one bird so I want an improved kite or tort. I don't think homoygous dirty is as good as het. These bronzes are so complexed.

Why is it that solid bronze show tipplers produce only red mottles? I spoke with a man awhile back trying to figure things out he was in Germany I believe working with German show tipplers which I think is just a English show tippler that they have a different standard for. He showed me his bird and the red mottles that come from them. So If your able to get red mottles from a solid bronze that would only lead to options. Show tipplers are grizzled or red mottling is produced by kite. Or red mottle can be made by kites or grizzle.

I'll post pictures up later Of birds


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Print Tippler, that is NOT true ,solid bronze show tipplers don't only breed red mottles. I've been breeding show tipplers for 50 years and I have a few pairs of solid bronze that breed 90% solid bronze ,maybe you would get one red mottle and one dark bronze.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

copper said:


> Print Tippler, that is NOT true ,solid bronze show tipplers don't only breed red mottles. I've been breeding show tipplers for 50 years and I have a few pairs of solid bronze that breed 90% solid bronze ,maybe you would get one red mottle and one dark bronze.



What size bands do those show Tips wear?


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

I use size 8


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I never said anything about the percentage of red mottles, just that you will get them.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Oh ! I misunderstood what you said (Why is it that solid bronze show tipplers produce only red mottles ? ).


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I ment they dont ever produce solid reds rights? Whenever a red comes it goes mottle eventually right?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Print Tippler said:


> I ment they dont ever produce solid reds rights? Whenever a red comes it goes mottle eventually right?


It depends on which genes you have in your stock. Bronze mottle has not been completely explained as far as I know. I still think it is tiger grizzle, while others say it is a different factor.

I do know that some bronze mottles do breed solid reds (usually a low percentage) which stay solid, while many only breed red mottles (or rosewing as I have heard it called).


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Yes, I have never breed a solid red in 50 years .I have breed thousands of show tipplers in that time and have never bred one solid red.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

rudolph.est, most of my recessive reds start out solid red and molt in mottle after their first molt, some get almost all white.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

So is it kite causing the mottling? My real crucial question is how far can I breed my bird to achieve the bronze as show tippler. Is brander bronze a separate gene? Does it just improve a kite? Is it just undergrizzle added. Seems like there is no clear cut answer. No one has taken a bronze tippler and just bred it to a blue bar to determine?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

What I'm trying to figure out was what was discussed but never concluded.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/kite-35185.html

Whats in bold is what I'm trying to figure out. Also it looks like there is really I only couple of bronzes when you get down to it.



jbangelfish said:


> Anymore, I'm not so sure. Quinn listed 8 bronzes, Toy stencil, Kite, Roller, Brander, Tippler, Lebanon stencil, Archangel and Modena.
> 
> Modena bronze has been found to be the same as what is now called Ts1, the first stage of Toy stencil bronze, which has now been broken down to 3 factors, Ts1, Ts2 and Ts3. Dr Paul Gibson did the research on this and I have spoken with him quite a bit about it. He has admitted that Ts3 can be any number of factors which bring the bronze stencil markings to white. He was unable to isolate any single factor as Ts3 but named it anyway. He did at least prove there is a third step. My feeling is that Ts3 can be any number of bronzes or opal and even sometimes indigo. Paul agreed with this when I have talked with him.
> 
> ...





jbangelfish said:


> I always thought that brander was separate too as Quinn stated back in the 70's. I'm just not as sure anymore. I've found about a 50/50 split among the "experts".
> 
> I now have the "white eyed kites" that came from an almond show roller breeder who just calls them kites. Well, they are sure different than any kites I ever had before, looking just like the ones here from Holland. I plan to breed them to agates to see what I get.
> 
> ...



The two reds which I believe are t pattern and sure are kite and not spread came out the same way.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

copper said:


> rudolph.est, most of my recessive reds start out solid red and molt in mottle after their first molt, some get almost all white.


That is true for many people. And that is why I stated that it depends on your gene pool. 

I only have experience in breeding homers. I bred about 25% solid rec red, 25% mottled rec. red (small ampounts of white appeared on shield and neck after th moult), 50% blue from a mottle rec red x split rec red daughter pair I had. I anly bred 8 birds though, so not a valid experiment. But I assume that the mottle in my reds was a recessive factor.

With selection one can increase the amount of white. But a bird with white will probably give that recessive gene to its progeny, so it is also difficult to get rid of the white.

Also, the split birds had no trace of bronze in their adult feathers. I can only assume that no bronze is necessary for the mottling of my homers. But there is a lot of research that states that bronze is necessary for mottling in tipplers.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Print tippler, I have bred blue bar into my Brander Bronze tippers many times .I got Kites, F1 and got Brander Bronze after 3 generations .
I crossed Blue Bars into my Bronzes to improve the tail and tip, black bars.

rudolph.est, Did you get the Bronze in your homers using Indigo ?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

So it could just homoygous kite, heterygous recessiece red. I'll be interested to see when I cross back.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

copper said:


> rudolph.est, Did you get the Bronze in your homers using Indigo ?


I did not have any bronze in my recessive red homers (I've switched to other breeding projects - so I don't have those birds anymore).

The bronzed sooty dirty bird I have now is definitely not indigo. As I explained recently (I can't remember whether it was this thread or another one). I would never call an indigo a bronze, for the simple fact that it would confuse everyone. Wherever possible I try to use the correct genetic term (when I am sure - or fairly sure about the genes involved).

I actually don't know which factor my bronze homer has, and as such I don't use a genetic term, or if I had to create one I would say homer bronze


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