# Re-evaluating Moody's problem



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

As you know, for a while I've been wondering what could possibly be wrong with my Moody goose. At first, people suspected she was slow to grow, and therefore she was smelly and low weight. Then, it came to genes... Could she have been, instead of an embden, a roman/embden cross? And perhaps her poop smelled bad because of some genetic factors; she did come from a large farm, after all. Diet came into play as well, and I tried various different foods but found none to be successful in ridding her of her scent. It was only in the past few weeks that I started to notice that Moody was pooping blood. It had happened once or twice in the past, but was due to a change in food, most likely, and subsided in a day or two...

Her feathers are in terrible quality and falling out every day now. She's also shedding some little skin particles and shafts of feathers, which I find is common in molting birds, and so I assume it is just her second molt. Still, after putting her on Metronidazole for 7 days, the blood went away for 2, maybe 3 days... And now has returned.

I've noticed it looks like there are 'chunky' pieces of blood in her poop, and also on and in her vent. The ones on her vent are black, but are obviously bloody, especially when squeezed, but the ones that she poops out are perfectly red. Less blood in the poop today, but still blood, and those strange chunky, fleshy pieces of it.

Her behavior is fine. She's gained about a pound since she started metronidazole. I was going to refill her prescription and continue on the dose, until I get paid in 6 days, when I could take her to the vet again and have a bacterial swab done.

Eating fine, as usual...
Wreaking havoc, as she typically does...

I've read that Coccidiosis causes this 'clot-like' blood in the poop. But, I've also read that Coccidiosis is severe, causes sudden deaths, a 'tucked appearance' and depression... None of which she has.

Does anyone know about proper dosages of Metronidazole for a 14 pound goose...? Also, does anyone know about _bacterial infections_ in geese or other poultry? My vet said if it was not Giardia, it was likely that... But then again, I don't trust any of the vets here. I don't think they even have X-Rays. I'd like to get an X-Ray done just to make sure she hasn't swallowed anything... But yet again, the operation would be so stressful and so expensive if she did, that I would literally die... And maybe her, too. In any case, I don't think she swallowed anything peculiar.

Yet again, the symptoms are:
→Bloody poop (little pieces of fleshy bits of blood, sometimes some bubbles as well)
→Diarrhea, less smelly than before, but still possessing an unpleasant odor
→Terrible feather quality and feather loss
→Slow growth; slow weight gain. She has not _lost_ weight, but as she got this illness, whatever it is, at an early age, she has not grown properly.

This would, I figure, imply some sort of parasite or infection of the intestines that does not allow proper nutrient-absorption...

Any thoughts? 

Vasp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Have you wormed her? Did the vet check her for Coccidia?
I still have not been able to talk to Deb.
How old is she?


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, she went through with a dose of piperazine, but did not, it would seem, have roundworm. The vet sent a fecal to the lab, and no eggs were found. Would you suggest doing another fecal test? Moody is 7 months old now. She's had this problem for quite a few months. The vet did not check for Coccidiosis... Exactly how do you do that?

I was thinking... Moody's problems seem to escalate in severity and then improve again on a regular basis. This, apparently, is a symptom of Giardia--it gets worse, and then it gets better; sometimes it will even disappear, but it's still there.

Vasp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Vasp said:


> Well, she went through with a dose of piperazine, but did not, it would seem, have roundworm. The vet sent a fecal to the lab, and no eggs were found. Would you suggest doing another fecal test? Moody is 7 months old now. She's had this problem for quite a few months. The vet did not check for Coccidiosis... Exactly how do you do that?
> 
> I was thinking... Moody's problems seem to escalate in severity and then improve again on a regular basis. This, apparently, is a symptom of Giardia--it gets worse, and then it gets better; sometimes it will even disappear, but it's still there.
> 
> Vasp


There are other kinds of worms besides round worms and just because she was wormed once doesn't mean she doesn't have worms now. Worm eggs don't always show up in the fecals. I would have another fecal done. The fecal needs to be as fresh as possible. Coccidia should show up in a fecal exam. 
Just a feeling...stop giving her pineapple and cut back on the fruit. 
What did the vet say was found in the fecal last week? Was the fecal also set to a lab for analysis? 
I will be able to talk to Deb today. I know she is scheduled to be at the clinic.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

The vet said she didn't find anything abnormal in the fecal. The fecal was sent to a lab for analysis, and nothing was found. Does that rule out Coccidiosis? Okay, so in 6 days:

→fecal examination
→bacterial swab test

Should come out to about $150 or so... Pretty pricey, but it can be done.

Today:

→refill prescription for Metronidazole ($13)
I'm just wondering, how much longer should I have Moody on Metronidazole? Another week to see how it goes, or just another few days?

Cheers,
Vasp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

No more pineapple and little fruit..ok? Are you by chance giving her anything with bran in it?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just sent you a private message.


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear Moody isn't doing too great. It must be very frustrating for you both. I hope you can pin down exactly what's wrong, and that she recovers quickly. Sounds like she is in the right hands.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you, Maryjane. I'm always worried about Moody. She's my little girl. The little balls of stuff that she poops out look odd... Sort of like pieces of bloody flesh. I hope there isn't something severely wrong with her organs or something. She only poops blood when she's under stress, like in the bath tub (which makes her a bit stressful). But right now, her whole butt is covered in blood, and her beak has blood stains on it from preening, and she's shaken blood all over the bath tub. She looks almost like the terrible victims of fois gras, only to a lesser degree!

Oh, if it's something I've done, I'll never forgive myself... My poor Moody... I just hope she pulls through. I would be so devastated...

Vasp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just sent you a PM.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

moody's possibilites​
symptom: bloody diarrhea
→bright red in color
→some is clotted
→only apparent when in stress
→comes and goes, more or less

what this means:
→bright red, 'frank' blood in the stool comes from areas of the intestine
that are close to the cloaca, like the _ceca_ area of the intestinal tract.

→clotted blood basically means that the blood has been there for a certain
length of time. Clotted blood is a common sign of _Coccidiosis._

→if blood is apparent only when the bird is under stress, it must mean that
there is no active, internal bleeding occurring in the intestines. If there was,
the bird would be pooping blood at all times.

→blood coming and going can be due to the complication causing the blood,
or just the factor of stress. The bird may be more stressed one day and less the next.

Coccidiosis symptoms:
→bloody diarrhea with often clotted blood
→blood is bright red as Coccidia attacks the _Ceca_.
→listlessness
→sudden death

Coccidiosis, in most cases, is rather severe and often acts quickly.
However, in more chronic, less severe cases, it can go on for quite a long time.

what this means for moody:
→there is a distinct possibility that Moody has chronic Coccidiosis

why the fecal MAY not have shown coccidia:
→the fecal was taken from her at about 12:00PM or earlier, and arrived at
the lab that evening. It was much too old.
and
→not all samples will show the coccidia.

what we're going to do for moody:
→get a fresh fecal sent to the lab at the end of the month (pay day)
→limit stress
→purchase probiotics from the health food store in case they help her


Note: This is only a guess and we will not take action to treat her until we have proof 
from a veterinarian that she indeed has Coccidiosis. She may. And yet, she may not.



Cheers,
→Vasp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Interesting link about keeping Geese.

http://www.ashtonwaterfowl.net/keeping_geese.htm#ill


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

It seems that the Capillary worms would make sense, as for Moody's symptoms. It would also make sense, because they're so thin, small and 'hair-like' that they can hardly be seen. I haven't been able to see anything in Moody's poops, that at least I can identify. Of course, the vet will have the final say. I don't know where/_if_ I could get Flubenvet, which is apparently the most common, safe and effective wormer to use. We only have two feed stores here, and I'm not sure if they sell Flubenvet or if they even sell _grit_.

"Capillaria: Capillary worms (hair worms) can live in the esophagus and crop, in the small intestine or in the caecum. They are hair-like and can hardly be seen in crop or gut contents. They can affect all types of birds but are usually most damaging in game birds. General symptoms are droopiness, weakness, and emaciation. Intestinal capillary worms cause severe inflammation, blood-stained diarrhoea, anaemia and death, especially in young birds. They affect chicken, pigeons, guinea fowl, turkeys, ducks, geese, pheasants, other birds."

http://www.smallholder.co.uk/mostpopular.var.976875.mostviewed.worms_in_waterfowl_and_poultry.php


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Did you read the part about dietary needs and grit?
I really think Moody has more than one issue which are contributing to her condition.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, I did. It's a good article and I'll be sure to print it out and bring it to the vet. I think she already knows what geese need to eat though. She didn't seem stupid about geese or anything, but she probably just assumed that she had grit. We don't even know if we can buy large enough sized grit. I suppose most people don't care if poultry have grit, as they just want to eat the birds in the end anyway, but calcium in oyster shell is important because they also want to eat the eggs.

Sigh.

But truthfully, Moody doesn't eat much fruit at all. When she was eating fruit with her medicine, she was pooping less blood and having less diarrhea, so I don't think that is the main concern. Also, I'm sure that her pellets and corn aren't the best there could be (there is no market for waterfowl here, no specialized waterfowl feed, not even scratch or grains to buy at our feed stores) but I doubt they would cause blood in her poop. But something has to be causing the blood, right? I'm thinking the grit could be a pretty big issue. The pieces of corn that she eats are sometimes pretty jagged. It causes me to think that perhaps they are cutting up her intestines, and due to the fact that she doesn't have grit, she isn't digesting her food properly and is therefore not getting enough nutrients.

Would that be a possibility?


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

All right, I have some thoughts here...

Moody had an incredibly smelly poop today. Just like she was having before she was put on the medication. I hadn't even realized how gooey and smelly her poops were before the medication.

Here's what I think.

Moody has Giardia. That's what I think.
I think that the medicine helped her a great deal. The blood went away for a while and the poop stopped smelling and had a way better consistency. Of course, with Giardia, you need to have a pretty large dose of Metronidazole for a pretty long amount of time, and may even need to continue it. Those tricky Protozoa!

But the reason she has blood in her poop, yet no dire symptoms...?

Well, the rolled corn.
The prickly, jagged edges of them can't be properly digested by her system.
While they're going through her intestines, due to the lack of grit in her diet, they are not ground up well enough and cause a bit of stress on the intestines. They have to stretch to let them through and sometimes even get cut.

And the reason she poops MORE blood when she's stressed out...?

Well, we all know that when birds are afraid, they poop more. They basically get diarrhea. When she's in the bath tub, she's anxious. She's never liked it, so we're going to try limiting her time in there. However, as time wears on, and she gets less anxious and the blood slowly goes away. When people come in, there's more blood. When they leave, there is less.

So due to her stress, the food goes through her intestines more quickly--and because of the fact that she can't properly digest the food to begin with, now it's even worse. It leaves little scrapes in her intestines and on and just around her vent--in the lower regions of her intestines, more likely. This is why there is frank blood in her poop and why it's so red. Some baby chickens get the same thing, diarrhea with frank blood, due to cracked corn that they are having difficulties digesting.

'Frank blood will appear as bright red, thin lines mixed in or around the stool. The stool often appears to contain a lot of mucus. The intestines produce this to ease the passage of foods with pointy edges - like cracked corn.'


http://www.the-coop.org/wwwboard/discus/messages/5052/78.html


Update: Ugh! I can't believe I haven't seen this before or that my vet didn't notice this!

Vent gleet.
reddened vents, sometimes with whitish lesions, or powdery black to waxy black around the vent, foul-smelling, loose droppings.

Well, she has a reddened vent for sure. The vet noticed that.
She has waxy black things around and on her vent. They bleed. I noticed this quite a while ago. I thought it was peculiar.
She has foul-smelling, loose droppings. Very foul-smelling.

She seems to have all the symptoms of vent gleet. I always wondered where the black things on her vent came from.
I didn't hear it was a symptom of Giardia so I didn't know why they were there. But this would explain it.

For the blood in the poop, like you said, Charis, she probably has more than one problem.
The blood in the poop, I say, is still caused by the lack of grit and the pointy edges of her corn.

Today we're going to buy her a lot of things. I'm going to bring up the possibility of Vent Gleet to my family and to the vet.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



The pointy-edges-of-Corn, soon become soft and pliable in her Crop.


One can demonstrate this easily, by putting a few of these Kernals in one's mouth, and, finding them to soon soften and become chewy, or, if allowed to soak longer, become quite soft indeed.


Too, her Mastications occur in her Gizzard, where, with or without Grit, the hydrated Foods, Seeds and so on, are mashed into pulp by the contraction of the Organ's interior Horney 'plates'...so, I would not expect any Grains physical configurations when 'dry', to still posess any potential for mechanical irritations, once having passed through the processes of her Gizard, to be digested by strong Stomach Acids, and, in liquid form, passed on to the intestines.



Now, far as my own sense of all this is able to see...

Coccidiosis DOES seem to fit well with the symptoms and signs you describe.

Possibly, Giardia does also.


And, the general picture to me, does suggest some long standing, chronic Enteritis of some kind, possibly, more than one going on...and maybe some secondary infections, whether systemic or localized, from bacteria entering open lesions or infections of other kinds.


I think the only value an "X-Ray" might have, aside from how the Vet can flatter his financial strategy on how what should be a Three or Ten or at most, a Fifteen Dollar ( AT a good profit at that, as far as what the real costs of doing it are, ) proceedure translates into an $85.00 one, just 'cause he can exploit the situation like that and get away with it...is, that if Moody has a foreign and "metallic" object caught in her Gizzard, then, if Metallic, it will show nicely on the X-Ray.And almost nothing else would show well, nor would any other kind of material likely be able to entrap in her Gizard, so...


Chronic Intestinal infections, or, infections and the by-product toxins of Parasites or of inimical Micro-Organisms, could seriously effect the actual Nutrition she is able to extract from her diet, as well as poisoning and intoxicating her system.


If she would drink it, making medium Strong Teas of 'Barberry' and 'Goldenseal', could definitely aid her, along WITH the specific Pharaceuticals, as a concurrent regimine.


Possibly Cranberries also might be very good, and, would do no harm anyway.

I do not know if a Salmonella could also be some of the problems here, but, someof me thinks it might or could be...so, that is something maybe to brood on also.


She might also have a Unurinary Tract infection which has been concurrent, chronic, and could also be a contributing source of 'sluffing' or Blood...I would guess...



Anyway, those are my thoughts as of this moment..!


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


If 'Vent Gleet' seems like it fits some of the picture, and, as a 'Yeast' infection, it is treatable with 'Medistat' or 'Nystatin', then I would think, by all means, "Yes!" go for the Gusto! - and treat it, since these Medicines do not interfere with the others, and, will definitely benifit her if she does have the Gleet. And if she has Yeast infections at her Vent, probably she has them going on elsewhere also, which are not seen topically.


As we know, whatever the primary illness or problem may have been, successive and concurrent problems, infections or opportunes can often occur when the Immune System of the Bird ( or anyone else ) is depleted or tired or somehow was run down from not getting the initial illness out of the way...so a viscious circle is entered then, where multiple illnesses or conditions get going...


Phil
l v


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, I bought her some probiotics from the health food store with acidophilus and bifidum, as well as quite a few things... Was unable to find gravel, so I bought some sand that has some gravel mixed in, some little pieces of them. I've read that sand is good to be mixed in with gravel, is this so? Of course, I also bought her triticale, barley, carrots, sprouts, spinach, raspberries... My mother, however, pointed out that sprouts are often associated with E.Coli. Should I or should I not take the risk and feed her the sprouts? I really think she'd love them.

Anyway, now they you point it out, it probably isn't the corn that's the problem. I'd also suspect a chronic form of Coccidiosis or even Giardia, though the treatment sort of had an 'on, off' effect on her. But vent gleet really really fits the bill, from what I can see of her vent. She's even lost quite a few feathers around her vent since it started to get swollen. I'm going to see if I can find Nystatin or Medistat at our local farm supply for over-the-counter drugs... If not, I'll have to talk to my vet about a prescription for it.

We're getting a fecal done in due time, even a few fecal samples (the freshest, smellyist, even bloodyist I can get) to see if they find anything this time. Capillary worms, Giardia and Coccidiosis are all possibilities... I'd also like to have a bacterial swab done... That would probably show the vent gleet if she has it, but I'm going to try to give her a treatment if I can anyway... Just because it seems like a good possibility and it's not harmful.

So, in any case, I suppose all I can do now is keep her fed on good things, supply some sand, give her the probiotics, try to keep her as stress-free as possible, seek out Nystatin or Medistat (would any other anti-fungals work if those aren't available? But those are the safest, aren't they?) and get fecals done in 3 days or so. So... by Tuesday or Wednesday, I hope to bring in a fecal.

If the nystatin doesn't work, I'll have to get a bacterial swab, another fecal... And if all else fails, hey, an X-Ray could reveal a good few things, even if it means a 2 hour drive... There is a great avian scientist a few hours from us, and if all else fails I'd love her to have a look at Moody.


Thank you for all of your advice, Phil. It's great. But, are the sprouts okay for her to eat? I don't even know if there is a brand.. It says, "Fresh deli sprouts", mustard greens, radish, clover and something else... They look okay, but you never know.


Regards,
Vasp

Update: Okay, no nystatin, medistat or any anti-fungals at our only big farm supply store... A lot of other things, but nothing of that sort. I suppose I'll have to talk to my vet about a prescription for nystatin... And the earliest I can is on Monday.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


For the price of Lunch, or Lunch for Two, you can get a BIG 'Jar' ( well, like a Cup Full or so ) of Medistat powder from various Pigeon Suppliers, and, if ordered on-line now, with expedite shipping, would be to your Door on Tuesday. And be a MUCH larger amount than a perscriptiomn would be, and still end up costing less most likely, even with the shipping ( which would be many 12 bucks or 15 tops for next day Air ).

You just mix the 'Medistat' with Fruit Juice or Liquid, for the dose you are going to let her have, and make more the next day, so it is easy and keeps indefinitely.


Far as I know, 'Nystatin' and 'Medistat' are the safest.

Possibly Pidgey will look into your thread, and let us know if that fits his recollections also.

'Sprouts' or other fresh Veggies, can be topically made safer by immersion or light spraying, via any number of safe, Organic and Fruit Peel based products, made for Vegans to use for cleaning Greens, sold at any Health Food Store...


But, the "e-coli" scares ( and dangers ) we have heard about, tend to have been endemic to the Plant's interior or circulatory systems, where topical addresses would not effect a solution.

Personally, I would not worry about it...



'Grit' for Ducks anyway, and, probably for Geese, would tend to be those small roundish Pebbles they elect casually and incidentaly, while Graing, according to how many they feel they need at that time.

But, if you are thinking of getting an X-Ray, just to see for sure if she has anything "Metallic" lodged in her Gizard, then wait on the ('real') Grit till after you know.


You would NOT want her to have any 'Grit' if she does have some Metal caught or puncturing or otherwise stuck in her Gizard, and, most likely, she does not have any such thing, but, I just wanted to mention it in connection with what would be about the only use I can think of for an X-Ray at this time.


An X-Ray could show some subtle and useful things TO a sufficiently practiced Eye, familiar with Goose interiors, as for showing swelling or suspicious and un-usual density of Organs and Bones for example.

But, would your Vet be familiar enough with phantom siloheuttes of a Goose's internal Organs, to make any useful evaluations or pronouncements, if he even could tell that any were swollen or more dense or faint that normal? And, probably, some of them ARE swollen, or more dense or faint than normal too, because of her illness...so...

Grit Wise - 

What I used to do for my Duck, was I just got a Mug full of roundish Granite and Jasper and other definitely "Rock" Pebbles, hand picked from the gravel in the parking lot here, and, I washed them well, soaked them in 20 percent Bleach-Water for a day, rinsed them, and set them into a shallow pan of Water, and she loved it, spotted them right away, and ate five or six or something right off the Bat.

Then I washed the not-eaten ones again and put them aside, presenting 'new' ones once a week or so, where she would eat however many she liked, deliberately, according to how many she felt she needed. And represented the previously rejected ones after a good washing.

These were roundish Gravel Rocks that were about the sie or bulk of small to medium Blueberrys.

She did not want smaller ones than that, and did not want larger ones than that, so after a little observation and experiment, that was my appreciation, and the ones she did not wish to eat, I tossed back into the parking lot.

Any place which sells Landscape Materials, or Concrete ingredients will have Gravel Piles, and likely would give you a few pounds for free, especially if they knew it was for your Goose.


Phil
l v


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Phil - I'll go look for some real gravel tomorrow. We looked in a gardening section and all we found was sand, but it was getting late. We'll have to go to a place with landscaping materials rather than gardening materials; that's what I figured would be better. The sand we bought was only 4 dollars anyway. As for X-Rays, I highly doubt she has any metal in her system. Birds who ingest heavy metals have way different symptoms, like lameness and neurological disorders. She has none of those and is in not in any severe state of disorder, at least behavior-wise. I know people who have lost ducks and geese to metal ingestion and it strikes quickly, and ends quickly if not cured quickly. Moody doesn't have that.

Pidgy actually talked to me on my _other_ thread about Nystatin dosages. It's in sick/injured pigeons discussion. You can go there and scout it out, if you'd so wish. Do you think you could give me a website or something with medistat that I could order, that ships to Canada or is in Canada? I'd definitely be fine with doing an express shipping method to get it here ASAP. Medistat sounds way more aimed towards birds so I'd be more comfortable with that.


Vasp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You're in Canada, huh? Well, that might change some things. The site I'd given you for the Medistatin would have been as good a place to buy it as any but I don't know if they ship to Canada.

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Don't go over-board on the spinach as that can cause problems with too much iron. You'd be better off with green leaf lettuce. Feed greens that you can wash really well. I think your mom is right about the sprouts.
When my friend Deb suggested lead paint poisoning she thought that perhaps Moody had gotten into outside dirt that had chips of lead paint in it. I was unaware at time that Moody had pecked off chips of paint around your bathroom window and that you live in an old house that likely does have lead paint. My house is old too and I love that about it.
Deb is the veterinarian at the Audubon Wildlife care center in Portland. She treats a lot of water fowl and said that lead paint poisoning can cause bleeding as you have explained. Maybe it's not lead paint poisioning...I'm sure not an expert when it comes to geese but I would consider her to be an expert and believe me...she sees a lot of weird stuff. I don't think you should rule it out because research you have done on-line doesn't match.
I really hope Moody gets well soon. I know you are feeling frantic and it very obvious that you love her very much. That makes Moody one lucky bird. 
I really do think that Moody's condition may be contributed to as assortment of things.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> Phil - I'll go look for some real gravel tomorrow. We looked in a gardening section and all we found was sand, but it was getting late. We'll have to go to a place with landscaping materials rather than gardening materials; that's what I figured would be better. The sand we bought was only 4 dollars anyway. As for X-Rays, I highly doubt she has any metal in her system. Birds who ingest heavy metals have way different symptoms, like lameness and neurological disorders. She has none of those and is in not in any severe state of disorder, at least behavior-wise. I know people who have lost ducks and geese to metal ingestion and it strikes quickly, and ends quickly if not cured quickly. Moody doesn't have that.
> 
> Pidgy actually talked to me on my _other_ thread about Nystatin dosages. It's in sick/injured pigeons discussion. You can go there and scout it out, if you'd so wish. Do you think you could give me a website or something with medistat that I could order, that ships to Canada or is in Canada? I'd definitely be fine with doing an express shipping method to get it here ASAP. Medistat sounds way more aimed towards birds so I'd be more comfortable with that.
> 
> ...



Hi Vasp, 


Not 'Metal Poisoning', but 'Metal' as a mechanical irritant or being stuck in the Gizard...


These are two different things, even if they may co-exist...


More an aside in ralation to 'X-Rays', than that she is likely to have somehting like that going on.



'Medistat' ( is that the right name?) - I will do some searches and check back.


Well, I just checked 'Foys'...

'Medistatin' is the name I had mis-stated appearently...and it is a lot more expensive than I thought - $26.00 for 100 Grammes.


I do not know what Pigeon or Poultry Supplies places might be nearer to you though...I do not really even know where you are!



Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Charis, 



Spinach is also not a good one oweing to certain peculiar Acids it contains.


Lettuces as such, generally, are so low in any actual nutrition, they they are at the very bottom of being desireable for foods for anyone.

Cabbages and their wider family, I feel are to be either investigated for compatibility, or, prudently and gently avouded, pending our knowing how the Bird's diegestive system will manage with them, since in people, Cabbage family Leaves can make a lot of Gas, and while flatulance in people is amusing or at worst, mildly inconvenient, I do not know if it could be painful and disruptive for a Bird.


Sprounts of many kinds, Beet Tops, Carrot Tops, Cilantro, Parseleys, Endives, Kales, Collards, Chards, Mustard Greens, all would be very good choices for just about Any Bird who eats 'Greens' in Nature. And they are easy to tear or Scissor into appropriately small bits for presenting to the Bird.


Ideally, if we can get these Greens from intelligently managed private Gardens, or, from small Organic Farms or other small Producers, we will likely be getting more nutritious versions of them, than to use commercially grown and 'usual' Grocery Store ones.


Best wishes!



Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/2312.html


'Medistatin' - 'Foys'...


Phil
lv


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Not sure, but the only quick shipping method I can see is one that costs $30. Not sure if I want to pay $60 for something that might not even be a cure for what Moody has.

Charis - yes, I think that it would make sense, for it to be lead poisoning, but honestly, she didn't get to much. My mother was exaggerating it a bit, I think. Of course, if nothing else shows up to be the problem, we will of _course_ look to that and treatment options for lead poisoning. Just curious - how does one treat it exactly?

Pidgy - the link you sent does allow shipping to Canada. I'll look into that, perhaps rather than from Foy's. But Foy's is also a good option.

I will not give her much spinach; she's not too fond of it, anyway. I gave her a few sprouts, and she loved them. They smelled a lot, and I assume, tasted a lot, like the oat grass I grew for Moody. So I think that is something she liked.

Anyway, kind thanks for the help.

vasp


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Aha! Another possibility triggered by the post mentioning "metal". There is something that us duck/goose people call hardware disease .. it is caused by the bird ingesting metal .. nails, staples, coins, paper clips, jewelry .. you name it. This is also quite a real possibility with Moody. If she has eaten something like this, the result over time would be a very, very sick goose. Basically it is heavy metal poisoning .. sort of like lead poisoning. X-rays would turn up the hardware. Should this be the case, then surgery would be needed to remove the offending foreign object(s) .. there was a duck a number of years ago on one of the ducks list who had swallowed bunches of coins and was near death when the problem was finally found when the bird was taken to a university with a veterinary school.

Here's one link .. will get some others: http://www.duckrescuenetwork.org/duck_care.html#illness

and another: http://www.majesticwaterfowl.org/mmissue10.htm

Terry


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Aha! Another possibility triggered by the post mentioning "metal". There is something that us duck/goose people call hardware disease .. it is caused by the bird ingesting metal .. nails, staples, coins, paper clips, jewelry .. you name it. This is also quite a real possibility with Moody. If she has eaten something like this, the result over time would be a very, very sick goose. Basically it is heavy metal poisoning .. sort of like lead poisoning. X-rays would turn up the hardware. Should this be the case, then surgery would be needed to remove the offending foreign object(s) .. there was a duck a number of years ago on one of the ducks list who had swallowed bunches of coins and was near death when the problem was finally found when the bird was taken to a university with a veterinary school.
> 
> Here's one link .. will get some others: http://www.duckrescuenetwork.org/duck_care.html#illness
> 
> ...


It MAY be from lead paint. I found this link.

http://www.heidihoefer.com/pages/birds/lead_poison_bird.htm


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Amongst other things, lead can cause hemoglobinuria, which is often mistaken for bloody diarrhea. Since it's not actual blood cells, they won't show up in a fecal smear. It's the protein that carries the oxygen and not blood cells themselves.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> <<<snip>>>>
> 
> When my friend Deb suggested lead paint poisoning she thought that perhaps Moody had gotten into outside dirt that had chips of lead paint in it. I was unaware at time that Moody had pecked off chips of paint around your bathroom window and that you live in an old house that likely does have lead paint. My house is old too and I love that about it.
> 
> ...




Hi Charis, Vasp, all...


I re-read this from a few Posts back, and it sorta had jangled something in memory earlier, but I was focussed into some other angles.

I seem to remember non-metal-fregment kinds of Metal Poisoning, Lead Poisoning from different sources, to have been mentioned causing odd syndromes, bleeding and defieient Hair or Feather quality, digestive problems, and so if you can get a Test done on Moody, for Lead Poisoning, it would be a good one to be able to cross-off it if comes up 'negative'...

But of course if it comes up 'positive', then that would indicate that it has been one of the things going on with her.

Is your Home or ajacent Buildings of an old enough era to have had Lead Paint on them in times passed? 

And of course, I myself was still Painting Houses as a 'Painter' in the mid 
1970s with Lead Paints at least some of the time, and other people who had Five Gallon or Gallon Cans of it, used it when they got around to it, which could easily be even into the 1980s for that matter if they had good 'stirring' arms! - old timers who kept extra thing in the Garage or Barn, use 'em up!


Anyway...worth considering I think...

((((PS Just read the five or so Posts since my earlier ones, and see this has come to be mentioned by Terry and Pidgey, so, sorry my Post here seemed clueless, about the continuity, just because it was! )))


Love,


Phil
l v


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, our house is old.
I entirely doubt Moody has hardware disease because... Well, she's not falling over or losing the ability to walk, she is having no neurological problems and doesn't have fluorescent green poop. In fact, it's just a normal brown. With frank blood. And besides, the black waxy things on her vent seem to, in my mind, just _scream_ that she has vent gleet. I mean, it could be among other problems as well, but I don't even think she has lead poisoning! She chewed at a little bit of the window sill, and that might have even been painted lately; it looks as if it has. She didn't get much paint from it. That was also many months ago. If she does have lead poisoning, then I will certainly treat her. I just don't know. Lead poisoning has some pretty severe neurological side effects, and she doesn't have _any_ of those. Just intestinal problems.

She also doesn't have difficulty walking, standing or even fatigue. She's crazy. She screams. She runs. She plays. She chews. Madly. She doesn't have weak legs or wings or anything of that sort. Nor does she have very green droppings. I really don't think hardware disease lines up with her symptoms. As I've said, I know many duck and goose owners who have lost a bird or have nearly lost a bird to hardware disease and the way they notice it is by the bird unable to stand, falling over, etc. It happens very quickly. A few days or weeks after ingestion of the objects. Moody has never really liked to eat those sort of things. She just chews. She's chewed many things I would worry about her eating, but as soon as I found out and couldn't get it out of her beak, she'd just drop them and get bored. Like sticks, for example.

I wouldn't entirely rule out lead poisoning, but it's not on the top of my list. Honestly, a chronic case of Coccidiosis, bad case of Giardia, Capillary worms and/or vent gleet makes way more sense to me. The blood in the poop can be attributed to Capillary worms, Giardia and Coccidiosis.

'Intestinal capillariosis causes a severe inflammation of the intestine, excess mucus production, and flabbiness of the intestine. Inappetence, emaciation, blood- stained diarrhoea, anaemia and death occur, especially in young birds.'


'Nonspecific clinical signs reported for captive birds include inactivity, anaemia, weight loss, general unthrifty appearance, and a watery diarrhea that may be greenish or bloody. Tremors, convulsions, and lameness are also occasionally seen. Rapid weight loss may lead to emaciation and dehydration followed by death. Young birds that survive severe infections may suffer retardation of growth.'

- coccidiosis, fits the bill. though she has not had lameness, she occasionally has had tremors. but very very very rarely.

I think we've already covered vent gleet and Giardia.

I just don't know if lead poisoning or hardware disease line up well.

Of course, I'd want to make sure of it, but we're talking an absolutely terrible smell. Normal colored, though sometimes slightly green, absolutely foul smelling diarrhea with blood, mainly only when nervous.

Eh... Could be a great many of things...

I really think that vent gleet is ontop of it all though. I mean, she might have lead poisoning and vent gleet, or capillary worms and vent gleet, or coccidiosis and vent gleet, or giardia and vent gleet. She might have a few of them. But I don't think she has hardware disease.. No... She has no behavioral problems. Just...smelly, smelly bloody poop problems...

And vent redness and such.


Vasp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,



Well, we are all doing well I think to get our thoughts set down! - and to be rooting for Moody ( and you! ) !!!


Lol...


But all in all, "Yes", my main bets are for the 'Coccisiosis', 'Giardia' and 'Candida'...meaning, all of them bothering her...with the Capillaria, and possible sub-lethal, chronic, cumulative Poisoning from Metalic Oxides or other Systemic Toxins, or some Organisms making Toxic excretions in her System, as something to keep in mind as a possibility, if these other "three" are addressed without a full-enough 'cure' being acheived in a reasonable time with the right meds.


And a reasonable time of course is some weeks anyway...with a slower healing or improvement for some aspects like Feathers.

But for us to bear in mind, that 'metal disease' of domestic Fowl, would most often be 'Zink', from Galvanized Chicken Wire or kindred 'Screening' or scraps of these being inadvertantly injested or weathering into Soils...even as old exterior 'Lead' Pains can...


Where, Wild Geese sometimes have grazed the 'ground-laying' Lead Pellets from Shotgun blasts past, and gotten Lead Poisoning from it ( possibly, the White Oxides taste 'sweet' to them, for them to do this, I do not know ) as well as other odd metal things they might eat on accident or in naive judgement.


And, the illness from various Metal's Oxides, or from Metals in a chemical sense, is seperate from or overlapping with, the injury infection or other troubles that accrue, when a piece of potentially Toxic or even non-toxic Metal or even hard plastic, is lodged in their Gizzard.

Now, if she is passing NO identifiable 'whole' Grains, then, her Gizzard is most likely doing fine, or at least is doing alright, which would suggest to me, that she does not have anything lodged 'in' it, far as that goes.


Best wishes!

Phil
l v


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The following is from the article br Heidi Hoefer regarding lead poisoning.




Lead poisoning is the most commonly reported poisoning of pet and wild birds. Lead toxicity not only occurs in urban areas, but in rural and suburban neighborhoods as well. Clinal signs of poisoning can be variable and depend on how much lead is eaten. Symptoms include:

•Loss of appetite, listlessness, weakness

•Loose droppings with abnormal color (green, black, pink or bloody


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, I know lead poisoning could potentially be a problem. But her symptoms are very 'universal', as I'd like to say. Besides, poisoning...? She's such a happy goose in every other way. It would be hard for me, as her 'mom' to see that she is poisoned. Lead is a pretty terrible metal. But, of course, I will have it checked out. How does one test for it, blood test, I'd figure? More money. I really don't know how much I can afford.

Sigh.

Anyway, last night she had a very very smelly, messy diaper. And I now have more reason to believe it is not lead poisoning or anything. Well, first, I'm not sure if she has the waxy black things on and around her vent anymore, but what I am sure of is that she has a red, fleshy thing on her vent that bleeds, especially when she is nervous. Could this potentially mean that she has some sort of hemorrhaging? It certainly seems like that. Maybe she isn't bleeding very internally, but rather just in the cloacal area? It's a possibility, from what I see of her cloaca.

Sigh.

So, bloody droppings but only when nervous, bleeding wound of some sort on the vent and probably inside, as well, bad feather quality because she got whatever she has at an early age, absolutely _horrific_ scent--I think some people would vomit at the sight and smell of her poop--and that's...about it. Anything that does not involve "absolutely foul smelling diarrhea" is out of the question, lol... Well, not necessarily...but whatever she has, she has something on top of it that causes really bad smell.

Of what we've already discussed, only Giardia and Vent Gleet involve really bad smell in the poop.

So...

Seeing as her problem seems to lie in her vent area, I'd like to favor Vent Gleet in that... But what about this hemorrhaging or whatever it may be?

As for lead poisoning... Well, I guess it's a possibility...

'Signs and Symptoms
emaciation
reduction in the size of breast muscle; breast-bone becomes prominent and is referred to as a “hatchet”-shaped breast.
lethargy and lack of appetite
head tremors
esophagus impacted with food; gizzard stained a green colour
green or bile-stained feces
paralysis of lower legs
blindness
impaired locomotion and balance
the head of some geese may appear swollen
drooping wings
lack of fat in the abdominal cavity
metallic lead fragments may be present in the stomach. The absence of such fragments in lead-poisoned birds indicates that complete erosion and subsequent absorption of the fragments may have occurred, that the fragments were eliminated in the feces, or in the case of raptorial birds, voided in a regurgitate (pellet).'

http://www.unbc.ca/nlui/wildlife_diseases_bc/lead_poisoning.htm

Of those, she really only sometimes has bile-stained poop. But...Actually... She never does. Though she does have the bloody, loose stools, we also should keep in mind that they're only bloody when she's stressed out. Under a lot of stress. Even when I was changing her diaper and wiping her down with a wipe, she didn't poop blood afterwards... BUT the 'thing' on her vent did bleed more.

Strange...


Sigh...


Vasp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Vasp...Done of us know really know what is wrong with Moody. We can only make our best guess. With lead poisoning, the symptoms vary depending upon the amount of lead ingested.
I had a Starling that nearly died from lead poisoning. I had been giving her an antique bowl to bathe in and it was hand painted with a lovely scene of two children playing in a garden. Years ago, it had been a dish for a child. The starling over time began loosing her balance, almost acting drunk. We couldn't figure out what was wrong. One day Deb was at my house, she took one look at the dish and said, OMG, she has lead poisoning. I stopped using the dish and the symptoms went away. The Starling lived another 10 years. The Starling displayed symptoms very different from Moody but symptoms do vary.
Make sure Moody can't chip away at the wood-work any more.When spring breaks and she is outside check the soil around your house for paint chips too.
Please give your vet all the information you have obtained here and she can figure it out. As much as we try...we can't see Moody and even if we could, we are not Goose experts. I really want her to be well and have a long and happy life with you.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you, Charis.  Yes, I'm going to bring my vet all the information and suggestions from here. I'll make a little print-out for her. Moody is smelling exceptionally bad, again. A very acidic, pukey smell, like there was before she was on Metronidazole. I'm going to try to get my paws on some Nystatin tomorrow, or some Medistat if I can get it shipped here very quickly.

Moody's eating and acting fine, but she smells terrible.

Oh, and starlings are very wonderful... I love corvids.


Vasp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you've got some ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar), you can paint some onto that fleshy thing you described at her vent and see if it goes white. That would be the test for Papillomatosis.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

From AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, by Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison, page 511:

"Cloacal papillomatosis is a well known disease in psittacine birds and is recognized clinically as a glistening red or pink cauliflower- or strawberry-like
mass rising from the cloacal orifice. Early lesions are characterized by a rough-appearing mucosa at the mucocutaneous junction of the cloaca. Other presenting signs may include tenesmus, melena, foul-smelling feces, flatulence, pasting of the vent and cloacoliths. The abnormal odor is likely to be caused by bacterial proliferation in the crypts caused by the papillomas."

Pidgey


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Wow, that would make sense, with the foul-smelling feces and pink mass. It bleeds, though... Is that a symptom? Anyway, I will have to buy some ACV water and test it out. Where exactly do you think I could get ACV water? I think I saw some at our grocery store quite a while ago, but since then I haven't really seen any. But I'll look around. Also, the mass isn't very large... Pea-sized.

But, I read on a site (http://birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww55eiv.htm) that it needs to be removed by surgery and can mimic fungal and bacterial infections. Soooo... We'll try the ACV on the vent and then if it doesn't turn white... it is probably a bacterial or fungal infection. Going to try to get some Nystatin.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

"Bragg" Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar - any Health Food Store, or Health Food section of regular Grocery Stores.


If you can not find that one, any HONEST Apple Cider Vinegar ( but they dye White Vinegar to LOOK like it is amber color, so read the labels carefully...)



Phil
l v


----------

