# mistery



## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

I was just wondering if anybody could tell me what this pigeons parents would have been breed with to give him the white specks on his neck and head. He looks nothing like his parents.


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

One parent is likely white. The other could be just about anything, probably solid colored, unlikely a barred or checked.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The parents would have to be carrying some form of white and spread (to make him black). A bird could have some hidden white feathers you don't even notice, until their babies are pied. The white can come up anywhere on the body. What DO the parents look like?


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The parents would have to be carrying some form of white and spread (to make him black). A bird could have some hidden white feathers you don't even notice, until their babies are pied. The white can come up anywhere on the body. What DO the parents look like?


I had two lonly birds and felt bad and since half of my birds are breed just for pets I let them mate, one was a rescued almound cock and the other was a hen black saddle, I have since got them there own type to breed with. Anyway I have a black hen I can put him with but I am not sure if it will mess up the black or should I breed him with a white hen? His sister is a beautil almound hen but I am not going to breed them back. >Kevin


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

So the parents to this bird were Almond and the Black Saddle? If so, the white on the saddle is where the white on this bird came from.

Is pure black babies what you're trying to get, or...(a little confused, sorry  )
And a tip if you don't already know, don't let two almonds breed together since it can cause eye problems in the young.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> So the parents to this bird were Almond and the Black Saddle? If so, the white on the saddle is where the white on this bird came from.
> 
> Is pure black babies what you're trying to get, or...(a little confused, sorry  )
> And a tip if you don't already know, don't let two almonds breed together since it can cause eye problems in the young.


No it really does not matter to me I was just curious as to witch hen would give me the best bird without looking even more like a checker board these are just pets but I want to breed a few more , he is about as messed up as I want the colors to get so that leaves me with white hen or black. At first I was just wondering if this bird was breed with somthing other then a fantail.>Kevin


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*grizzle and t pattern blue*

Grizzle and pied make the saddles what they are. Almonds are typically t pattern blue, just don't look it. This bird picked up some pied, grizzle and is t pattern blue. Look at the tail, is blue with black tail bar. Some people call t pattern blues, blue tailed blacks. Nice looking bird to me. Risingstar breeds fans, he can tell if it's a good one or not.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Never Almond to Almond*



pattersonk2002 said:


> I had two lonly birds and felt bad and since half of my birds are breed just for pets I let them mate, one was a rescued almound cock and the other was a hen black saddle, I have since got them there own type to breed with. Anyway I have a black hen I can put him with but I am not sure if it will mess up the black or should I breed him with a white hen? His sister is a beautil almound hen but I am not going to breed them back. >Kevin


*Hi KEVIN Never mate an Almond to Almond,this type of mating will produce weak Almond cocks if they even hatch they will be sickly birds and die. Almonds also keep getting darker after each molt until they are not showable *GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't know that I've seen a t-pattern this black before. But Bill's right, the presence of the tail bar usually indicates it's not spread.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*A/a*



george simon said:


> *Hi KEVIN Never mate an Almond to Almond,this type of mating will produce weak Almond cocks if they even hatch they will be sickly birds and die. Almonds also keep getting darker after each molt until they are not showable *GEORGE


Is that only with family or almounds in general. The bird in the pic is only6 months old and I also have an almound hen from a differant breeder that I could use


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Any almond pair. Something about the genes just don't agree.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Not all almonds are like this*

There are families of almond pigeons that can be bred together with no problems. Many of the top almond breeders in the country do this all the time.
If you have the almonds with problems, there is something called bladder eye that can appear on homozygous almond cock birds. One of the eyes is actually misplaced on their head. Also homozygous almond cock birds tend to be very light in color. If you choose to breed two almonds together, just check the family history first.

I looked at the fantail in the photo again and noticed dark colored feet. This indicates dirty factor and they will probably not stay dark as the bird matures. Two other signs of diry factor are dark color and a white rump. This bird shows very dark color (near black) and the white rump. Tic eye can also show up, sort of a slanted, or squinty eye. Again, these are all factors that are used in almond breeding to get good color extension and good base color. TTic eye of course is not desired, just a side effect of the gene.

This bird is not almond and could certainly be used without fear to breed to an almond. Does it have any bronze in the flights? This would be kite and is also in the mix for good almond color. Without it, almonds tend to be more grey in base color. Almonds are bred in so many colors today that it becomes very difficult to sort out what all is in them. They can all be very beautiful and as George says, the black or break tends to increase with age.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Bill, is it just me (or the picture?), or does it look like there may be a bit of a bronze tint to some of the feathers on the wing? The ones held right above the feet anyways.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Good eye Becky*

I saw it too but don't know whether it's lighting and camera angle or if it is kite bronze. It would be very likely with almond in the background. The open wing should reveal if it actually has it for sure.

Bill


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*bronze*

I don't seem to be able to get him to stay still to get a really good picture and I do not want to stress him out by pullng from his cage, this is about the best I could do. I am not sure exactly what you are saying in your comments, that is the reason I put it into genetics to get some answers but you are giving me ?'s , I guess this is the only way I will learn all the terms and I will have to do some studying before I will ask any more. He does have bronze on his flights (both sides) and it shows more then I can get in a picture. Now I really do not know what I want to do with this bird, one thing that comes to mind is how could I get more bronze in his offspring. 

I only have a coulpe of monts before I move most of my birds to a ouside loft and avery and would like to pair them to get what I want. For the most part it will be easy but We shall see, lots of learning.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

[

Questions lead to answers...I for one would be thankful they even had interest in the color of my bird and posted at all.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*So, what do you want from this bird?*



pattersonk2002 said:


> I don't seem to be able to get him to stay still to get a really good picture and I do not want to stress him out by pullng from his cage, this is about the best I could do. I am not sure exactly what you are saying in your comments, that is the reason I put it into genetics to get some answers but you are giving me ?'s , I guess this is the only way I will learn all the terms and I will have to do some studying before I will ask any more. He does have bronze on his flights (both sides) and it shows more then I can get in a picture. Now I really do not know what I want to do with this bird, one thing that comes to mind is how could I get more bronze in his offspring.
> 
> I only have a coulpe of monts before I move most of my birds to a ouside loft and avery and would like to pair them to get what I want. For the most part it will be easy but We shall see, lots of learning.


Do you know the sex of this bird for sure? To just look at it, I think hen but could of course be wrong.

It has what appears to be kite bronze, this is used in almond breeding and other colors as well. It has grizzle which makes the white flecks on the head. It has pied which puts the white feathers in the wings and tail. It has dirty factor which makes dark color, black feet in young birds and often puts white rumps on blue pigeons. It also has t pattern which is the highest pattern gene. It could carry other genes that we can't see.

Bottom line is that this bird is blue with several modifying genes. Nothing wrong with any of that. If you wanted to get almonds from this one, take it back to an almond, it's own parent, if the proper sex, is a good choice. This bird should be able to produce very nice almonds with an almond mate. It would also bring more bronze but will produce almonds as well. This bird is blue but would also be known as a kite. This can be confusing at times but you get used to it over time.

Any concerns that you may have had over this bird being a crossbreed or not can be forgotten. Certainly somewhere along the way, many generations ago, this bird would have non fantailed relatives but it is so far back that this one would be considered pure fan. This is how new colors are brought to any breed, it just takes awhile to get them back to the standard for the breed that you are working with. The almond gene was brought to fantails at least as far back as the 70's and probably before.

If you want to breed true blacks from it, all you need is spread factor. The black saddle should have it unless it's a t pattern saddle. Mated to a saddle would make some heavily splashed birds but could also produce a solid black, provided the saddle is spread and not t pattern. If it's solid black that you want, you have to look at what you may have to put with this one and make a choice.

Feel free to post any photos of the choices that you have for mates with this bird. I would like to see the parents if you can post their pics. 

If any of this is confusing, it's just because it's unfamiliar. I will gladly help any way that I can and do not set out to confuse anyone, unless playing a trick on someone or as a joke. Not joking here, not trying to confuse, just trying to help. Anything you'd like to know about this, I'll be happy to help if I can.

Bill


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Lucky?*



spirit wings said:


> [
> 
> Questions lead to answers...I for one would be thankful they even had interest in the color of my bird and posted at all.


Now thats funny, it sounds like what I said, my quistions lead to answers that lead to questions and so on. I also said I am learning and you are right on one thing though, I forgot to mention to the ones that are being helpful in teaching me, Thank you very much. >Kevin


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's a very pretty fantail, Kevin. I don't have any info for you regarding any of the genetic stuff, but I loved seeing the bird. I have a little dark cutie also. Here's Chessie:










Terry


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Terry that is a spectacular pigeon*



TAWhatley said:


> That's a very pretty fantail, Kevin. I don't have any info for you regarding any of the genetic stuff, but I loved seeing the bird. I have a little dark cutie also. Here's Chessie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where have you been hiding this one? Very pretty. I think it is t pattern indigo, bronze and grizzle. I have a young roller that is similar but not indigo, still a pretty bird with bronze and black and grizzle. Neat stuff. Thanks. If you don't mind, I'll post it on another site, I know some people who would get a kick out of it.

Bill


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*bronze*

Terry, nice lookining bird you have there, I would hate to take a guess as to how many you do own Well as I am finding out there is so many differant color configurations that it woud be hard to keep up. This is why I asked the quistions on this bird, I hand no clue where it came from, now I know. There is one thing for certian, I don't think I would have put together those answers reading a book, this site is incredable for the knowladge it holds and really makes it a lot more clearer for people new to pigeons. When I started, I knew there where homing pigeons like my Grandfater raced and the ones down at centrial park, boy little did I know. >Kevin


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the compliments Bill and Kevin! Chessie will be getting the big head! Kevin, don't mean to be stealing your thread here, but Chessie's lineage may be of interest. Chessie's parents were Castor (Dad) (now deceased) and FanFan (Mom).

Castor:










FanFan:










And Chessie's sibling, Aspen:










Bill, you are welcome to share any of the photos that I post. Kevin, I have probably about 40-50 pigeons and doves that are my personal and permanent pets. I also always have rescues/rehabs here which keeps the total pigeon and dove count usually at 100+.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, I have to butt in here and reiterate that Castor is my all time favorite pigeon on this site. He is also the papa of the beautiful Fantastic.

Terry, thanks for putting those pictures up again. I always love to see the "Castor" and "FanFan" family.

This has been a really nice thread to read.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Well, I have to butt in here and reiterate that Castor is my all time favorite pigeon on this site. He is also the papa of the beautiful Fantastic.
> 
> Terry, thanks for putting those pictures up again. I always love to see the "Castor" and "FanFan" family.
> 
> This has been a really nice thread to read.


Thanks, Maggie! Castor was, indeed, a very special bird with a very special story in how he came to be one of my beloved pets. Fantastic is doing well and is currently a single girl. I'll have to get some current photos of her for you.

Terry


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*No problems*



> Thanks for the compliments Bill and Kevin! Chessie will be getting the big head! Kevin, don't mean to be stealing your thread here, but Chessie's lineage may be of interest. Chessie's parents were Castor (Dad) (now deceased) and FanFan (Mom).


Terry there is no problem I really enjoy the exstra reading. 
>Kevin


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Terry, this helps alot*



TAWhatley said:


> Thanks for the compliments Bill and Kevin! Chessie will be getting the big head! Kevin, don't mean to be stealing your thread here, but Chessie's lineage may be of interest. Chessie's parents were Castor (Dad) (now deceased) and FanFan (Mom).
> 
> Castor:
> 
> ...


I showed your picture on a genetic forum website and it created quite a stir. It is a very striking combination of colors. Popular opinion has it as t pattern blue with kite bronze or at least bronze and grizzle or very similar in makeup to a bronze show tippler. We'll have to see what they think after seeing the parents and sib. Thanks,

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

FanFan is a beauty and so are her children! Castor looks like a pretty boy too


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks, everyone. I will stop posting in this thread cuz it ain't my thread. I've been thinking about things regarding my birds that have been posted here and will start a new thread tomorrow or whenever I get time with more pics. Basically, I'm thinking that it is FanFan that carries the unusual "stuff" as she also had some very different babies with Traveler as the father .. one very white and Traveler looking (Parfait) and the other very dark and looking like nobody I know (Pepper).

I will post this last one as a testament to why all of us should rescue pigeons when they need help. This is FanFan on the day that I got her:










Terry


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*paired*

Terry, Don't think that I forgot about this thred because you where posting, I could never get a good picture to show my choices and I got so busy with everything on top of non stop cutting wood to heat the house. Ayway all that is done and a couple of months ago I decided to pair this cock bird with this hen and I am proud to say I have babies that are now about three days old I am guessing. They have there nest up near the top wich makes it hard to get a good picture , I do not want them to hurt the babies trying to reach in there with the camera, I will get some pics as soon as possible. 
Oh and feel free to post it won't bother me at all, It's only chit chat anyway.
heres my choice


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's a gorgeous fantail, Kevin! Thanks for the photo, and I'll be looking forward to pics of the babies when that's possible! 

Terry


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