# Canker



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Folks,
Here is a perfect example of why a pigeon has to be gotten very early in order to save its life.
This morning, I went down to feed "my" flock and they were pretty hungry so most of them came down. 
One bird, a male blue bar was in there eating with the rest but every minute or so, he would lift his head up and some seed would fall out. He opened his mouth a few times in a gape as if something were bothering him. When he put his head down to eat, I went over and picked him up. I opened his mouth and faced the sun so I could take a good look but he had seed in the mouth so I couldn't see much. 
There was no way I was going to second guess myself so I took him home, cleaned out his mouth and then saw canker growing right below the choanal slit. The tissues were starting to spot some blood.
He is quite strong because food still goes down but how long before this would have killed him?
He's in my home now, medicated and in a clean cage. Needless to say, he is not happy to be here and I'm not happy he has canker but in about 10 14 days, it should start to fall apart and then he can go back to his home.
Go out and get them early enough before it is too late.
Reagards to all of you.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hey, Fred! 

What exactly is the cure? We were told that "sulfa" might do in a pinch--that one could soak match sticks in water and swab the lesions with them daily, and that that would effect a cure.

What do you use?

--Ray


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

So right, Fred! I've seen it in birds which have come to my balcony and just sat there - so I could catch them easily. One poor little guy was wheezing breaths through his open beak, in mid-winter. Of course, when I got him inside, I could see that the canker was so bad he couldn't even close his mouth properly. He couldn't eat, only just managed a little water, and was just fading. That one, the bird hospital did euthanize - but another in that condition, they got in time to clear out the worst and treat him. He recovered to be released and fight another pigeon day.

John


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

we use copper sulphate for canker -- and for feather lice. Put it right in the bath water, and the birds usually take a little sip before they dive in and splash, so we're killing two birds with one stone...oops, not a good saying here! .... LOL Well, you know what I mean.

In birds with noticable canker, we mix the solution a little stronger, and swab it with a Q-tip dipped in the copper sulphate. Even to the point of scraping the growth off a bit, if we can. And, we syringe a little bit of the treated water in, to make sure they've drank. We had one bird with it last year, so sick it was almost choking on the stuff. Hubby accidentally syringed too hard, and flushed out the gunk...the bird rapidly improved after that! So now we try and remove as much of the ick as possible.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Folks,
Pleeease listen to me on this! Swabbing an area that has canker does nothing. Canker spreads all over the body. It can lodge in any organ you can think of. I have seen it behind the rectal area. I have seen in the liver. I have seen it absolutely destroy the sinus cavities.
The only right thing to do is give Ridzole or Carnidazole or some other medication specifically for canker and it has to go into the entire system. You cannot cure canker by limiting treatment locally. 
While you are busy putting sulphur on a lesion in the mouth, the colony has already set up shop elsewhere in the body.
Suppose I tell you that a bird was brought to me with canker that bypassed the mouth completely and ate into the esophagus instead? It then broke through the esophagus and set up shop in the neck and all the way down the outside of the crop but under the skin. The esophagus was so swollen, the bird could hardly eat. I had to make a cut in the skin, swab out the canker from the esophagus and then cut down halfway along the outside of the crop to clean out as much as I could. That bird stayed with me for a month and a half. The hole in the esophagus had to close first.
I picked up a bird that had an absolutely huge amount of canker just behind the cloaca, in back of it. I gave one pill. In two weeks, the body was trying to push the dead canker out of the body and the bird cried out in pain everytime there was a dropping. I had to then slit open that skin and clean the area out manually. You wouldn't believe the smell of that rotten tissue. Then I stitched it closed. I still see that bird on the parkway to this day. He won't come near me but who cares? 
If you had these birds, what would you swab? You couldn't. If there is anything I know about pigeon care, it is canker. Please listen to me and anytime you get a bird in, put down a pill of whatever canker medication you have to kill it in the system. I promise you that if the bird is feral, it has canker in it waiting to bloom.
Copper is toxic in the system. Please don't listen to old tales of how to cure this terrible affliction. People used to put down a garlic clove to cure bacterial infections. "It cleaned their systems out." Of course it may have cleaned out their systems but I can imagine how burned the inside of the crop was. 
These stories are old fashioned and do not work. Maybe some of you got lucky once in a while and the canker did not spread. You cannot guarantee it didn't This is a life and while you have it in your home, you owe it the best that modern medicine has to offer. You have to treat the entire body with medications that are specifically produced for this purpose.
One bottle of Carnidazole is 100 pills and it will kill canker in 100 birds. It is $18 plus shippping from Foys. It's good stuff. It's just a little bit more than taking one bird to a vet to have it put down. Just maintain the bird and don't touch the lesions unless you want to see a bird drown in its own blood.
If you ever have a bird that cannot eat because of canker, I can tell you how to get food down. If you can't get food down, an avian vet can put a GI tube directly into the crop and the bird can be sustained that way while the canker breaks up.
Please listen to me on this. Have canker medication at home, at the ready and give it as soon as you bring a bird in. 
I don't know how else to influence you on this and I'm telling you that this is one thing I know about pigeons.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Incidentally, about the bird that had canker behind the cloaca: It came from the cloaca and when the canker was cleaned out, the droppings came out of the opening the canker created. The opening had to be stitched or that is how the droppings were going to exit the system and how long would it be before bacterial infection set in?
You would have no place to swab anything on for that infection and if you didn't do what I had to do to save that bird, you could have kissed it goodbye.
Learn as much as you can but learn it from modern medicine.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Actually I should have been more specific. If I can find an opening in the throat that is past the canker, I will first feed wet Purina Puppy Chow, a half piece at a time, using a cotton swab to gently push it past the foreign tissue. After about four days, I'll then switch to peas. Seed is just no good for birds which have a heavy canker infestation. They get stuck in the throat and in the foreign tissue. Green peas are round and go down without causing the tissues to be cut and start a bleed. The white peas (maple?) are not easily digestible for birds that haven't eaten for a long time because of their inability to swallow and they throw them up. the green peas seem to be more easily acceptable by the system. The Puppy Chow gets the digestive system started much more easily.
If the bird is so filled with canker that you cannot find a place to get the food down, then a vet could put in a GI tube.
I'll tell you that feeding a bird in this condition is harrowing and I dread it. Besides the time it takes to put one pea down at a time with a cotton swab, one mistake and a piece of food can displace the canker and a bleed could start up that could be so bad, pressure won't stop it. It can be a very difficult illness to treat. 
I'm thankful that the bird I picked up this morning has plenty of room in the mouth. Unless he is in a lot of pain and doesn't eat from that, he can eat on his own. He is wheezing and his nares are draining. That is one additional reason why he is on 5mg of Baytril every twelve hours.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Remarkable posts, Fred. We are indeed lucky to have you aboard!

Goodnight everyone.

PIGEONS--AND THE INTREPID SOULS THAT SAVE THEM--FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## PETPIGEONS (Aug 26, 2001)

Hi Fred,
Thank you so much for posting this very valuable experience. I am still learning things about pigeons and I learned something here. Great Information.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Ray,
You are very kind and generous with your thoughts. Since I have been active in this group, I have been shouting from the rooftops to have the medication on hand and to use it. To date, nobody has said they have put this into practice. Is it that I go overboard to get these birds or is it something else? 
There are people here who know a lot more than I do. Again, you will never hear me say that I know more, am better, know everything, etc. What I do know, I post about and when I don't know, I raise questions but make sure that I don't come across as some kind of pseudo expert. When those posts appear, I make sure that people know that I am guessing. The worst thing in the world to do is give out wrong information and a bird dies from relying on it.
All I am suggesting is that people have at least four medications on hand and use them; a canker medication, a coccidiosis medication, Ivermectin (1% solution) and Baytril. It is all available from mail order and/or over the net. They are all legal to purchase and use for pigeons. 
To take in an injured bird and handle the situation well requires these meds. The miscellansous other supples such as dental picks, Exacto type knives, scissors, dressings, disinfectants, etc are also needed but the basic four medications is an absolute necessity. 
There are very few people who can afford to take every bird to a vet and so the psychology should be developed that if you want to help a bird, learn to do it yourself. There will be losses and some of them will be from mistakes we make but that is how we all learn and if we learn from those mistakes, the next 1000 birds will benefit from them. Most good avian vets would more than likely come to a conclusion that the bird should be put down. Many times they are right but for the few times they aren't, the bird may be able to be saved by people like us.
If you don't have the room to keep an unreleasable, handicapped bird and if you cannot place it, that is a horse of another color but if you think you can save a bird for release, it is we who can do it. To be able to, we need those meds and miscellaneous equipment. Actually, it is not so miscellaneous. When we get a bird that has string on its feet, it's vital to have this stuff on hand. 
The people in this group are all very intelligent and good folks. I would rather throw my lot in with you than with almost anyone else. The thing is that good intentions and intelligence are not good enough. Hands on experience is the greatest teacher but not to have these supplies on hand is going to guarantee a loss.
All I'm saying is buy the supplies and try. The bird has a far better chance in your hands and has little or no chance to survive on its own. At least you tried and that is a lot better than doing nothing.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Fred, I have got so say that is a very intelligent post. I agree with you wholeheartedly, and the experience I gained has been through the way you described.
ButI also push the barriers all the time. If I have a problem, or a bird has died and I don't know the reason why, then I research it, I spend time thinking about, I work things out and prepare a plan of action for the next victim.
You and I think along the same lines.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

I found this page this morning which has lots of interesting info on trichomonas, including standard treatments. There is a slightly gruesome post-mortem picture on, but the info is well worth reading. Here is the link - http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/wildlife/division/roselake/Publications/Disease_Manual/TRICHOMONIASIS.html


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

....I should have learned by now....I've been involved in this very same discussion on another forum. 

Sorry....I forgot to mention that the copper sulphate is a veterinary preparation, safe to use on the birds...in fact, we purchase from the Canadian Racing Union shop. 

We don't just "swab" the lesions...it is also put into the drinking water at the recommmended dose for the recommended period of time. We just found that swabbing obvious lesions has, on more that one bird, seemed to make a big difference in the birds' comfort and recovery. The bird I mentioned hubby syringing wasn't drinking properly, so he had been doing this to make sure it was properly hydrated and medicated.

Fred, some of the medications you mention aren't available here. We do keep a supply of different medications on hand...and our local feed store carries a LOT of them, so if we don't have something, it's only a 20 minute drive to an available supply. 

You are right...it is always better to be prepared, rather than suddenly find you need something, and the only source is a pigeon supply store, which could be days before you get it.

BUT, people have to do more than have the medications on hand. They have to read up on the uses, and not over-medicate too. They need to know that the medicatin they are using is indeed the correct one. AND, some of the medications, used incorrectly, can be fatal. Emtryl, a canker medication, is one that, if used incorrectly, can kill the birds. And not by mixing wrong...by leaving it in the loft all day. On a hot day, when the birds drink more, they can actually overdose, and if it is not caught on time, the birds can and will die.

One other thing...if you find one bird that is sick, isolate it. Treat the rest of the flock, but don't leave the sick one with them...a lot of diseases are spread through the "communal" drinking water. Isolate the sick one, and wash all your feeders and waterers with a bleach solution. That way you can hopefully avoid any further spread of the disease.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Nooti,
Thank you for finding this site. That is one I will bookmark.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Everybody,
Thanks you so much for accepting my posts in they way you have. I'm not good at accepting compliments and all I can say is thank you but there is lot of appreciation behind that.
Whitewings, be careful about talking about Emtryl on the web. It has been outlawed in the U.S for being a carcinogen but I know it can still be purchased in Canada so It's obvious that you aren't using Emtryl, just talking about it. 
There is more than one way of treating for an illness and if you can't get one, you can get another. 
Whtiewater, if you can get stuff that works in your area, fine but don't forget about Foys and Global on the web. Everything you wrote is so true. Don't overdose and quarantine ill birds.
The meds I'm talking about are really for one bird, not to treat an entire coop. What we really need is a water soluble medication. Emtryl has been taken off the market but Foys has something called Fishzole that can be substituted. I never used it so can't say anything but the point is that there are alternatives.
Be well everyone.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Just to follow up on the first post that started this thread, the pigeon I picked up because of canker is doing beautifully. 99% of it is gone and his droppings are fine. I think he has a painful mouth from the lesions so I'm hand feeding him.

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"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."

Albert Schweitzer


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