# Help! With another injured dove!!



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I got another dove with an eye injury on the 23rd. She was ok when I got her except for her eye. Her eye wasn't swollen. 
But then I made the poor dove worse than she was. I put her in a basket as her home with another basket on top to cover it where she couldn't get out and last Saturday night I lifted the top basket off and reached my hand toward her. I guess I scared the living daylights out of her. She flew backwards like Popeye used to do when he had his attacks. She hit my wall and fell in between my instrument cases. I moved the case, fell to my knees and picked her up. I thought her neck was broken, I thought she would die. The dried blood on her eye had fallen off and there was no eyeball, just a gunky, gooey, bloody mass and it began to bleed afresh. Then I thought her leg was broken, then her wing. I set her in her basket and she immediately turned upside down with her feet in the air. Then it all stopped and she lay still. I picked her up for her to die and as I knelt at my bed supporting her head I wondered why she wasn't dead. I thought that they died immediatly when their neck broke. I prayed, "Oh Lord, please take her out of her misery right now," but she kept breathing. I set her on my bed with her head supported by my scarf and watched her. At length, I touched her wing and she scrambled to her feet. By this point her head had swollen terribly and she moved her head like Popeye does, except not as wide. Her good eye made her look retarded, it didn't respond to anything. I gave her asprin and she didn't struggle at all. Then I put her in her basket and supported her with my scarf. She was exactely the same the next day, she was still in her stupor and her head was swollen even more--the whole head, not just her bad eye, though the hurt eye was worse. 
I started giving her 3 (birdie) asprins a day until I could talk to Pidgey. The swelling went down quite a bit. Pidgey e-mailed me on the 25th. He told me to put her on Baytril and Flagyl and I cut the asprin down to twice a day. 
She almost died today. I don't know if she's going to live. When I went in to check on her this afternoon, she was sitting on her haunches and ice cold. Pidgey told me to get her warm and take her off of the Baytril and Flagyl. After she had been under the heat for a while she uprighted her head and finally stood back up. She is standing on her feet now. I want her to live. There's just that point that you let yourself get attached and then it's just too hard to let them go.

Licha


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Licha, I'm so sorry to hear about this poor baby. I wish I could help you. I don't know if you know or not, but Pidgey posted somewhere earlier today that he would be gone this week end and not much help to whoever he was replying to. Hopefully, someone will be on shortly to give you some help/advice. Sorry it can't be me.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear about the dove. Sounds like she is seriously injured.
If you suspect she has head injury do not put her on heat. For head injuries it is recommended to keep them in a cool place (not cold, just cool comfortable).
Keep her well hydrated, on pedialyte or gatorade. 
Place her in a carrier or cage with soft towels, in a quiet, darkened environment and don't handle her unless necessary.

Hope she makes it

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Licha,

I'm sorry to hear about this poor injured dove. I would follow instructions given by Reti for now.

Do you have a health food store near you? You can purchase a homeopathic product there that actually heals and takes the swelling down, specifically for all kinds of trauma. It is called Arnica Montana.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Oh Licha, you have been through so much this year. I know you will do your best to help stabilize and care for this poor baby. I hope all will go well.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I put her in the basket because I have Thunder Pidgey, Pirate, Humpty, and Dumpty in my room. I had to separate Thunder Pidgey and Pirate so I didn't have any other place to put this dovey. She wasn't under heat until she almost died and was so cold. I was pretty much doing what you said, Reti, she was/is in a quiet (except for my birds cooing?), darkened (as much as possible since her good eye doesn't respond to light) environment and I don't handle her unless necessary. I've been giving her just water, not pedialyte or gatorade but will try to get some tonight. 
Treesa, we have a health store but they've already closed today and they're JWs and don't open on Sunday. 
She is still standing on her feet. I had/have her on Terramicina ointment and I forgot to ask Pidgey about that. Also, yesterday I had started giving her only one birdie asprin a day.
I hope she lives... I feel so bad because... she was... so well before I made her hit the wall.

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Licha, please don't blame yourself for the accident, it happens to all of us. I am sure she knows too how much you love her.
Remember I recently also had an accident with Olivia and I know it is hard to get over it, but unfortunately accidents happen.

You're doing great with her. Aspirin is not the best choise for trauma because of the bleeding it can cause. But it is a good antiinflammatory and she needs that right now.
The Arnica Montana, I used myself for trauma birdie patients and it works well.
The ointment, is it for the eye?

Reti

Reti


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes, it's for the eye. 

Here is a picture of her bad eye the day I found her (before she hit the wall) and her good eye either on the 25th or 26th. That was the only time I got a picture of it because of the flash.

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That looks nasty.
Before you apply the ointment try to clean the area with saline, to get any blood clots and gunk out.

What a sweet baby.

Reti


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I've been doing that, too, for the last few days. She hates it. Her eye is so touchy I think she can feel the air with it.

Licha


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Alice,
That* is* quite an eye problem the poor dove is having to deal with.  
I'm a little  though. The date on the picture is 01/01/2005.

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I've been doing that, too, for the last few days. She hates it. Her eye is so touchy I think she can feel the air with it.
> 
> Licha


Licha,

You should also get a bottle of Sovereign Silver colloidal Silver at the health food store, and put a drop in each eye..once a day (and one down the throat). This has worked so well with any undiagnosed eye problem/injury, and you will get some positive results, as it heals and disinfects very quickly, depending on the extent of the injury. I have used it on eye injuries on my birds, and it really helped heal what was left.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Cindy, I dropped my camera earlier this year and broke it. It is fixed to where you have to take the batteries out to turn it off. When you have the batteries out for any length of time you've got to reset the date but I don't bother, I just press "ok" which sets it as the 1st of Jan 2005. I had my camera set up where the date wouldn't show but just recently something happened to it that makes me have to turn it off everytime (along with camera sound and I also have to change the quality of picture from the worst to the best every time). Sometimes I forget. 
Treesa, I wills see if they have that tomorrow, also. 
Thank you. She's the same today.

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am glad she is hangin in there. That is good.
Continue doing what you're doing.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Licha, first off, you are not to blame. Doves are more highly strung than pigeons and the least little thing can set them off. 

I would continue to apply the eye ointment 2 x a day, and, like everyone has said, keep her very quiet, in a draft free area. I think she will get some comfort from hearing the other birds so I wouldn't move her too far away from them.

I didn't know that with head traumas they were to be kept cool. However, I know warmth is a key to survival when they have been hurt and traumatized. Could you perhaps wrap her cage with towels or plastic to keep some warmth in and give her a sense of security.

Also, I would not give her too much aspirin. We have a dove, Milo, who injured his keel and as a result of this, he developed a yeast infection that was more dangerous than his keel injury. We wound up having to give him Itraconazole, an antifungal, for awhile before he finally recovered. You may want to look into something like that. 

Is he in Mexico? Maybe your kind doctor there could take a look at him.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> *Cindy, I dropped my camera earlier this year and broke it. It is fixed to where you have to take the batteries out to turn it off. When you have the batteries out for any length of time you've got to reset the date but I don't bother, I just press "ok" which sets it as the 1st of Jan 2005.*
> Licha


Alice,
Sorry to hear your camera broke but glad to know I wasn't exeriencing a 'Back to the Future' moment.  

Cindy


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

--It donned on me today that tomorrow is a holiday and the health store will probably be closed--

Maggie, should I quit the asprin? It didn't make any difference in the swelling that I could see when I cut it down. 



Maggie said:


> Could you perhaps wrap her cage with towels or plastic to keep some warmth in and give her a sense of security.


 I will. I have a cloth draped over it to help block out light when I turn it on but it isn't wrapped completely. 



Maggie said:


> Is he in Mexico?


 No, thanks to God she's in AZ.



Maggie said:


> Licha, first off, you are not to blame. Doves are more highly strung than pigeons and the least little thing can set them off.


 I know, but I was warned about it. 

Alice


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Alice, personally, I would quit the aspirin. Has the head swelling gone down any? Is she eating and drinking? And, it makes no difference if you were warned about "flighty" doves, this is something that can happen to any of us. These little guys move fast when spooked.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

The head swelling went down quite some time ago. Her bad eye swells up every now and then. It is swollen most of the time but not a whole lot like it was. 
She doesn't eat or drink on her own. I don't think that she can see out of her good eye since she hit the wall. 
Anyhow, I'll quit the asprin. Pidgey also said (when I was able to talk to him last Monday) that it would be bad if she had internal hemmoraging (sp?). 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Just a little update here...

I talked to Pidgey today. He told me to put the little dove on Amoxicillin because her head is always tilted toward the (right, Pidgey) bad eye. 

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is probably a good idea.
Are you seeing any improvement?

Reti


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Do you mean improvement of her head tilted?


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Strangle It? 
With those loving little hands?

Happy New Year Licha,

Love, Feather


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

lol That's what my brother said when he read it.  
Happy New Year, Feather! 

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Do you mean improvement of her head tilted?


Yes and in general.

Reti


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, she's worse. I took a picture of the way she tilts her head normally but now she has started tilting her head/twisting her neck until she turns herself over.  Poor little dovey.

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry, looks like she has seizures?
Do you have any antiinflammatory? Like Metacam? 
Did you start her on antibiotic?

reti


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

No, we don't have any. 

I don't think that she is having seizures? I guess I've never seen a bird have a seizure. I thought Popeye was having them but they were anxiety attacks and I guess that isn't the same as seizures? I always thought seizures were more of a sudden thing. I mean, Angel has seizures and it starts to come and then it hits hard. 
Since she recovered Saturday, the 30th she has been tilting her head more and more. Now it is like the first picture nearly all the time (that is how she is right now). Just before I was going to take the first picture I heard something happen in her cage and when I checked on her she had tumbled over as a result of doing what she is doing in the 2nd picture. 
I took a video when I took the pics but I don't know if it'll be clear. I'll check it.

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

You asked if I have her on antibiotic and I forgot to answer. I have her on Amoxicillin and the Terramicina ointment. 

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Hope it works...
Even with the light on in my room you couldn't see anything with my camera so I used a flashlight for extra light. 

Here is Dovey's video.

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is so sad to watch.
To answer your question, no anxiety attacks are not the same as seizures and seizures can be of several forms and several kinds. They don't always manifest as the typical tonic-clinic seizures.
In any case, she might have some form of seizures, I would't exlude it. She does have something neurological going on and that is not good and the worst is there is not much you can do about it.
I once found a kittten with the eye hanging out of the socket by the optic nerve, all she could do was walk in cycles, she absolutely could not stand straight. This is very similar to what your dovey does. I took her to the vet and he had to PTS. I must say though that the kitten was a little worse than your baby.
It might be the ear canal is affected also and that can cause the head tilt and turn.
What I would do for now is to keep her in a dim (I mean really dim) area with absolutely no noises or external stimuli.
You might also start her on Baytril or something that has a broad spectrum and that crosses the blood-brain-barrier. I am thinking to treat also a potential meningitis/encephalitis. I am not sure baytril does that, I have to check it out, I am not sure about the Amoxicillin either. Will get back to that later.
For in case she has an increased intracranial pressure, which is very likey and the she shows the symptoms for it, you want to keep the fluids to a minimum and keep her head in an elevated position. You could do that in keeping her in a small box with lots of towels or small pillows.
I wish you luck with this little baby.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My guess would be vestibular disease. What that means is that there could be an infection that's traveling from the damaged eye to the inner ear on that side. Now that I think about it, you've said that the eye swells occasionally and the fluid buildup may be putting backpressure on the inner ear on that side. What you probably need to do is break open (even slightly) the eye socket on the bad side. It was cut so savagely that it might be trying to seal off for good. I don't think that you can let that happen due to the likelihood that trapped drainage will be flooding the ear on that side. Therefore, get some courage from anywhere you can and open up that eye wound.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> My guess would be vestibular disease. What that means is that there could be an infection that's traveling from the damaged eye to the inner ear on that side. Now that I think about it, you've said that the eye swells occasionally and the fluid buildup may be putting backpressure on the inner ear on that side. What you probably need to do is *break open (even slightly) the eye socket *on the bad side. It was cut so savagely that it might be trying to seal off for good. I don't think that you can let that happen due to the likelihood that trapped drainage will be flooding the ear on that side. Therefore, get some courage from anywhere you can and open up that eye wound.
> 
> Pidgey


 What do you mean?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I guess he mean to open up the eye/wound and let the fluid that builds up drain.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A lot of times when we have a deeply imbedded infections, doctors will install a "shunt" or tube going into the area to help drain pus and fluids out. In this case, the eyesocket would except when it scabs over. It may be that the bird has a portion of the eye left in there that retains fluid. Our eyes as well as theirs have two chambers--the big'un and the littl'un. It may be that the littl'un on this fellow got slashed and torn up but the big chamber didn't. If that's the case then the big chamber might get infected and rot. That stuff would need to come out through the eyelids except that part got damaged on this bird, too.

So, it needs to drain somehow.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, when I took care of her this evening her bad eye _did _open. The bottom eyelid moved down and opened a little slit- well, 2 little slits worth. (I'm pretty sure that the bottom eyelid is torn. From the nose toward the ear it is torn to about the middle of the eye.) Inside it was just more blood. Not running, not dry...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In humans, we have specialist doctors that deal in "ear, nose & throat" because those areas are interlinked (it's a plumbing thing). Anything from the eyes drains into the sinuses and connects to the ears as well. Since this bird behaves like he's suffering from a vestibular disorder (something wrong in the inner ear where the sense of balance is) it doesn't take much looking to determine the most likely reason why. Therefore, it's a two-fold strategy: try to drain the pressure and find an antibiotic that will fight whatever's there. Since we don't know what that is or may be, you're shooting in the dark with what you've got and you've already been shooting with Metronidazole and Baytril--might as well give the Amoxicillin a try.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Well, when I took care of her this evening her bad eye _did _open. The bottom eyelid moved down and opened a little slit- well, 2 little slits worth. (I'm pretty sure that the bottom eyelid is torn. From the nose toward the ear it is torn to about the middle of the eye.) *Inside it was just more blood. Not running, not dry.*..


That dryness might be a problem as it may prevent the expulsion of deeper pus that needs to come out. We often get birds that the outside healed up too fast and it's abscessing inside. That would be a real killer in this area.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I just don't understand where I'm supposed to find what I'm supposed to drain and how I'm supposed to drain it.
Also, before and after I took care of her this evening she did a lot of "yawning."

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> That dryness might be a problem as it may prevent the expulsion of deeper pus that needs to come out. We often get birds that the outside healed up too fast and it's abscessing inside. That would be a real killer in this area.
> 
> Pidgey


 Sooooo I need to.... ?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'm just trying to give you some guidance on what to look for and I was going through some bird anatomy drawings to try and illustrate it. With Unie, the eye had to be enucleated, or surgically removed. He didn't go with the full enucleation because he was trying to save the sight in the other eye. In the end, it didn't work because infection (or whatever) traveled through the optic nerve and damaged where the two optic nerves go to the brain--it's all pretty short on birds.

You don't have the benefit of a vet that could perform that surgery unfortunately and it might ultimately be necessary, depending. If the eye gets an infection on the inside of the large chamber, then it may swell and become a real problem. But that's inside the eyeball. If there is infection and it's in the eyesocket and connecting ductwork between the ear and the eye, then it's going to cause problems in the ear, which may be what you're seeing.

Another possible note is that Metronidazole toxicity actually causes symptoms like this and it's possible that that is what this is. Kinda' confusing, really, and we're just going to have to wait it out and see, I guess. But if the eyelids get puffy with swelling underneath, then you can probably bet that there's built up fluids in there and that you'd need to separate the eyelids to try and drain it.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I took the scab completely off of her bad eye. (It's nasty!) I think there is an eyeball there. 
I would post a picture but we switched harddrives so I'll have to wait for my mom to install the camera on this one.

Thank you guys so much for your help.

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This one's really been a wild ride--many of the times that Licha's gotten in touch with me (phone or PM) it's been to say that the bird had keeled over with its feet up in the air (literally), including one episode that it had stopped moving altogether. I just got another saying that it was scratching at the eye with its foot while standing on the other foot. Now, that's a pretty coordinated thing to do, especially considering the near-death experience.

My nerves are pretty jangled at this point and the day ain't over yet.

Pidgey


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Well the two of you have always amazed me. And Licha has those healing little hands.

Feather


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If I had my way, she'd be getting ready to go to med school.

Anyhow, we've been going back and forth between us over why the bird's falling over. Without the benefit of seeing the bird, it's pretty tough this time. It sounds like the bird's been doing varying degrees of stargazing and falling over. But, given that the bird has scratched at the bad eye, it's obviously not so far gone as to give up hope. 

I'm comparing the bird a lot to YoYo, who had real seizures, complete with disorientation when he came out of them. I'm not so certain about this bird.

Pidgey


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Truthfully...when I first glanced at the pictures I thought he was gone.

Licha has the ability to put her patient's needs first and set aside her fears. 
Honestly some of the things you have asked her to do. Well you two are a great team. Good luck to both of you on this lil one.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Anyhow, we've been going back and forth between us over why the bird's falling over.
> Pidgey


 So I took her out a few minutes ago to see what she'd do. The first thing she did before I had time to think was scratch her eye again. Then she stretched and then when into stargazing. She stayed in stargazing for a few seconds then brought herself out of it, stood back up (she was in a not-normal sitting position), and... she preened!! For the first time since I got her!! She went in an out of stargazing, she took steps, stretched again, tumbled over once when her twisting head got hung in her wing. She got up before you could say Wally-Marty...



Pidgey said:


> If I had my way, she'd be getting ready to go to med school.


 I knew I was bad... but I didn't know you were_ that _tired of trying to explain things to me!

Feather, I still want to strangle reality. ;-)

Licha


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

You go right ahead and strangle reality...I'm not that crazy about it either.

But you would probably make it "ALL BETTER".


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> So I took her out a few minutes ago to see what she'd do. The first thing she did before I had time to think was scratch her eye again. Then she stretched and then when into stargazing. She stayed in stargazing for a few seconds then brought herself out of it, stood back up (she was in a not-normal sitting position), and... she preened!! For the first time since I got her!! She went in an out of stargazing, she took steps, stretched again, tumbled over once when her twisting head got hung in her wing. She got up before you could say Wally-Marty...
> 
> Licha


It may not be apparent to some that the dove was so bad earlier that Licha had to restrain it to keep it somewhat upright or from falling over, and possibly from scratching as well. Anyhow, we'd started her on Amoxicillin and stopped the Baytril/Metronidazole combo because it wasn't any visible good. We shot for a smaller dose than the max given in the formularies and then decided to bump it up quite a bit, earlier today.

In the book (somewhere) it talks about one of the primary causes for vestibular disease (disease in the parts of the inner ear and brain that control balance) as being Pasteurella which is the one we're always trying to protect against with Clavamox (Synulox) or Amoxicillin when there's the high probability of a cat bite, lick or scratch. I don't think we know what did this wound but it could have been due to a hawk or whatever. Anyhow, that was my reasoning for switching to Amoxicillin (since Licha had that one in stock). I'm also wondering if the current short episodes of stargazing are due to rapid positional shifts of the head. Coupling that with vestibular disease might cause that. But it looks as though the medication might be doing some real good, the draining might be doing better due to Licha's debriding or the bird might be getting better in spite of what we're doing.

Of course, it's possible that the bird is demonstrating something else due to the complication of banging its head earlier but we're going the way we're going at the moment, watching and waiting (with bated breath).

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Feather said:


> You go right ahead and strangle reality...I'm not that crazy about it either.
> 
> But you would probably make it "ALL BETTER".


 That reminds of a bookmark I read the other day. It said, "Keep believing and your dreams will become reality." 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I checked on the dovey when I got up this morning and she wasn't stargazing but when I checked on her later she was stargazing again. 
Anyhow, I cleaned off her eye and this time all the water didn't roll off of her, she got a wee bit soaked on that side. I didn't want her to get cold so when I was done taking care of her eye I set the blowdryer on low and dried her off. During the whole time that I was doing that (about 5 mins) she didn't stargaze at all or even tilt her head. She just stood there like a normal dovey with the exception of moving her head back and forth like Popeye, though not as wide by any means. 
When I turned the blowdryer off she went into stargazing almost immediatly. I straightened her up. I watched her for 15 mins after that and she didn't go into stargazing, she only tilted her head at various degrees. After the 15 minutes I bundled her back up in her basket. 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Dovey has 2 cuts on her head, one above her right eye and one behind it. This is a picture that shows where they are. (the picture's not recent) Today she has been scratching at the one that is behind her eye. 
I haven't seen the dovey (I need to name her!) preen today, but that doesn't mean that she hasn't. 
She can't see to eat on her own, I'm still feeding her. 

Licha


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry I am so late to this thread...I have been getting behind...

I did wish to remind in passing, that 'Gentacin', or 'entamycin' or other permutations of it, are known to damage the Inner Ear of Birds and other Creatures, causing them damage which sometimes is not remediable.

This can effect their balance, cause 'Star Gazing' and twistings of the Head and Neck, and prevent them from flying or perching securely, or of having a normal Life for themselves...


Just something to bear in mind...


I had a Vet long ago who was always prescribeing this Drug, and each time I accepted to use it, those were the results, even though the Bird had no such problems at all prior to the Drug being used on him or her...

Years later I read up on it in the internet, and there are endless takes of woe from it's use...

Not that this is applicable here for this little Dove, but just that it came to mind to mention.


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Here are a couple of her preening.

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Had a talk with Terry and we agree that you'll need to keep flushing the eye with the saline and debriding it until it comes to some resolution. I'll email you an illustration of the avian eye so that you can see better what the damage might be.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Here is her "eyeball" ...if you can call it that.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's one more, though I guess it's not much different.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Had a talk with Terry and we agree that you'll need to keep flushing the eye with the saline and debriding it until it comes to some resolution. I'll email you an illustration of the avian eye so that you can see better what the damage might be.
> 
> Pidgey


 I've been flushing with the saline solution (I said "water" in an earlier post but meant the saline solution) twice a day before I put the Terramicina on but I'm not sure what you mean about the debriding. When I debrided it the first time, it was to take off a layer of scab that was on top of the eye. This 'stuff' in the pictures was all very moist. It has pretty much dried out now. ...am I supposed to debride _that_? 

Licha


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Licha,
Would you like a tube of opthalmic antibiotic for the dove? It's what we put in newborn babies eyes as part of the admission to the nursery? If you would like some, just e-mail your address to me at [email protected], and I'll get it right out to you. Your little dove is so beautiful, boo-boo eye and all.
Daryl


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thank you, Daryl. Yes, she is very sweet, but she is _so __thin_! 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I've been flushing with the saline solution (I said "water" in an earlier post but meant the saline solution) twice a day before I put the Terramicina on but I'm not sure what you mean about the debriding. When I debrided it the first time, it was to take off a layer of scab that was on top of the eye. This 'stuff' in the pictures was all very moist. It has pretty much dried out now. ...am I supposed to debride _that_?
> 
> Licha


Sometimes, it's better to get more explicit with your explanations. For instance, when you said that you debrided the layer of scab that was on top of the eye, I'm guessing that you're meaning that you took off a scab that was in the tissue surrounding the eyeball and in the skin towards the top of the head. But what you're asking about debriding, I think, is the scab-looking stuff that's where the part of the iris and pupil of the eyeball should be. I think I'd flush it but I don't think I'd mess with it for awhile longer. 

Sometimes, those things get loose and can be lifted out but I don't think we want to disturb it for now and, frankly, it would be very difficult to work up the guts to do it. If there's any way that you can determine whether this mess is where the anterior chamber of the eyeball should be versus being a scab covering the eyeball itself (with an intact iris, pupil and cornea under it), then that would be helpful.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> *If there's any way that you can determine whether this mess is where the anterior chamber of the eyeball should be *versus being a scab covering the eyeball itself (with an intact iris, pupil and cornea under it), then that would be helpful.
> 
> Pidgey


 I will see if I can...

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Sometimes, it's better to get more explicit with your explanations. For instance, when you said that you debrided the layer of scab that was on top of the eye, I'm guessing that you're meaning that you took off a scab that was in the tissue surrounding the eyeball *and in the skin towards the top of the head. * But what you're asking about debriding, I think, is the scab-looking stuff that's where the part of the iris and pupil of the eyeball should be.
> 
> Pidgey


 I'm sorry. Yes, that is what I meant, except for the part that I made bold. The layer of scab "on top of the eye" was covering the eyeball (or where it _should _be) and most of the tissue surrounding the eyeball. At the bottom, just below the bottom eyelid, it had a pointed piece of the scab (like Popeye's and Thunder Pidgey's scabs had a pointed piece sticking into their body) that stuck into her head there, just below the bottom eyelid.

This other scab-looking stuff is where (I'm pretty sure) the eyeball should be and that is what I wanted to know if I should debride, which you already answered. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Our eyeballs are fairly spherical with just a little bump where the cornea is. Birds' eyes are rather more dramatic as I'm sure you can see from the illustration that I sent you. If the cornea and anterior chamber have been extremely damaged, then the eye will probably never work again and if something else has affected the vision like a damaged optic nerve (for whatever reason) then it is a moot point, anyhow.

BUT, messing around with that stuff would still hurt like the dickens and I'd hate to do it if the bird weren't under a general anaesthetic with a good vet performing the procedure. That is to say that I wouldn't do it unless I absolutely had to. It's trying to imagine the circumstances that would prompt the go/no-go decision towards the "go" that I'm having a tough time with.

I once had a dog that got a straight cut right across the cornea, dead middle and about 3/8" long. Opened up like any other cut. We took him to the vet and I was certain that they'd have to take the eye out but they didn't--they just gave us the salve to put on and we faithfully did every day. The cut slowly pulled together and healed, it looked bumpy for awhile but it eventually smoothed over, looked kinda' cloudy for awhile and then just turned back to pure normal in time. You couldn't tell there had ever been a problem. But it was a very clean cut to begin with

Unless you've seen enough to make that determination, I just can't tell from the pictures. So, that's why I'm hesitant for you to mess around with it. I'm hoping beyond reason that it's repairing itself under there but there might not be anything left to repair.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

What about the good eye? Why can't she see out of it?

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, remember the swelling? Could be for a couple (or a thousand more) reasons, the two primary ones being possible infection going into the optic nerve for one and the death of the retina on that side for the other. The optic nerves on birds are very, very short and it's in a "Y" configuration. Their eyes don't move around every which direction like ours and they electrically just hook up straight to the brain. Ours have a cord that goes all the way around to the back of the head. A very little bit of infection goes a long way towards rendering birds blind in both eyes. For the other, inflammation can mean the buildup of ocular pressure--the fluid inside the eyeball needs its pressure regulated or it can get too high and cause "glaucoma". That's a condition where the pressure gets high enough that the actual blood flow into the retinal tissues in the back of the eye stops because, oddly enough, the blood pressure isn't high enough to push its way in. When this happens, the retinal tissue dies and sight is forever lost.

There are a host of other possibilities but those two are the most likely.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I want her to be able to see.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Believe me, I understand that sentiment all too well.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I hope this works...

* Dovey's Pictures*


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Or does this one?

*Dovey's Pictures #2*


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That one does (the second one). By the way, each picture has three little deals by it--if you want to separate them out, you just use one of the three tags (I'd use the IMG one) and copy and paste it on the thread where you want it and then you'll get a little picture here to click on as a link.

For instance, here's one:










Oh, well, maybe not so little of a picture! And there's no need to click on it because the whole thing shows up, full size!

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> That one does (the second one). *By the way, each picture has three little deals by it--if you want to separate them out, you just use one of the three tags (I'd use the IMG one) and copy and paste it on the thread where you want it and then you'll get a little picture here to click on as a link.*
> For instance, here's one:
> 
> Oh, well, maybe not so little of a picture! And there's no need to click on it because the whole thing shows up, full size!
> ...


 I hope someone else got something out of that because--  

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Oh! I see! I guess I'm not so dumb after all!

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Dovey started stargazing quite a bit the day after I posted that she was doing better. The next day wasn't so bad, but last night she was turning in circles and falling. It was horrible yesterday. Before, when she would stargaze, it was like she was daydreaming and at my first request she'd come out of it. Yesterday, it was like a nightmare, besides the turning in circles and falling, she couldn't get out of stargazing. She tried and tried but she couldn't "wake up" until after a long time of trying hard to.
Before I went to bed she wasn't stargazing as often. She just stood there with her head tilted most of the time. That is the way she was when I woke up this morning.

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

About the pictures: I clicked on the first one and left it up a minute and it eventually came on. It's supposed to be a slideshow.

Licha


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Both of the links worked for me. The first one is a slideshow and the second one comes up like an album. I hope Dovey is having a good day today.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thank you, Terry, today it's about 1/2 bad and 1/2 good.

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

*Update*

I named my little dovey Daisy. She is blind for sure. She has gained weight since the last time that I wrote about her. 

Daisy's not doing so well.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What seems to be the problem with Daisy? I realize that being blind is a pretty significant problem in itself, but it sounds like something else is going on.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Stargazing almost all the time.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pidgey said:


> Stargazing almost all the time.
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks for the reminder, Pidgey .. I should have just reviewed the posts .. 

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

One time when I checked on my little Daisy today she was actually standing up!!! Her head wasn't totally in stargazing, either!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> One time when I checked on my little Daisy today she was actually standing up!!! Her head wasn't totally in stargazing, either!



Now that is good news. Even a slow progress is great.

Reti


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Daisy has been doing better the last three days. She has been adding about 1 hour of voluntary "non-stargazing" time to each day since last Thursday. I am very happy and just hope she continues improving like this.

Licha


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Daisy has been doing better the last three days. She has been adding about 1 hour of voluntary "non-stargazing" time to each day since last Thursday. I am very happy and just hope she continues improving like this.
> 
> Licha


I am sure she will. She has the best care possible.
Thanks for great update.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Licha,

That sounds very encouraging. The non star-gazing time will increase as time goes by and hopefully she is well on the mend.

Thanks for sharing the good news.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Daisy is still getting better. Her worse time is in the morning- it is so hard to wake her up in the morning!- and her best time is late in the evening.

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How many hours a day of normal behavior is she up to, now?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

She's usually totally up by around 5pm and is still up when I go to bed around 10:30. I don't know what time she goes down, but she's hard to wake up at 6am. 
When she is up she still has her head tilted to the right. Once yesterday, though, she had her head almost upright when I went into my room. I'm hoping that will start getting better too. 

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Daisy has been doing wonderful for quite some time now. She stargazes a total of about 5 minutes a day. 
I moved her cage out into the loft about a week ago to see how she did. Daisy made an escape sometime between the time we left for church, 8 am, and when I came home to feed her at 3 pm today. I have no clue how she (or something else) did it, but her cage door was completely open and Daisy wasn't in it. I found her behind the birds' water as "happy as a lark." Not one of my 27 pigeons in that loft bothered her one bit. I was so proud of them and very proud of my little Daisy. She used to not be interested in anything going on around her, but sometimes I see little steps being taken by her. When I fed her today (still out of the cage and lose in the loft) I didn't feed her fast enough for her liking and she stuck her beak down in the dirt and started playing with it. When I put my hand there, she started playing with my fingers. I was so touched- she's never done that before. 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

By the way, I had taught Daisy to eat on her own, but she was iffy--not finding the food often enough because she was stargazing most of the day. I went back to feeding her because she started to lose weight. I will be teaching her to eat again in June.
Daisy is a very sweet bird.

Licha


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> * *Daisy has been doing wonderful for quite some time now.*
> 
> ** *I moved her cage out into the loft about a week ago to see how she did. Daisy made an escape *
> Licha


* Thanks for the update on Daisy, Alice. I'm so glad to hear she's doing well.

** I'm glad to hear she wasn't confronted by your pigeons when she escaped from her cage.  
If you plan to keep her in her cage within the avairy (which might be a good idea) you could place a low, flat, perch right in front of her food/grit/water. She will learn that each time she steps on the perch, her food will be available.

Rae Charles learned this method quite quickly. At first, I would tap on the dish & she would follow the sound. Since she had to step on her perch to *get* to the 'sound', & the sound meant food, she soon realized the connection & hasn't had any problems whatsoever.  

Cindy


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> * Thanks for the update on Daisy, Alice. I'm so glad to hear she's doing well.
> 
> ** I'm glad to hear she wasn't confronted by your pigeons when she escaped from her cage.
> If you plan to keep her in her cage within the avairy (which might be a good idea) you could place a low, flat, perch right in front of her food/grit/water. She will learn that each time she steps on the perch, her food will be available.
> ...


 That would work well, but I've got her cage set up like Popeye's because I'm hoping that when Popeye is crossed over, he and Daisy will be friends and keep each other company. 
I have the perch in the left corner and the food and water bowl next to each other in the right corner. The only thing different is that Daisy doesn't get a water_ bowl_, but one that hangs on the cage since she still stargazes. 

Alice


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