# trenton origin



## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

years back in the rp there was an article about the trenton breed and its origins can anyone on hear tell the story please lc


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

lordcornwallis said:


> years back in the rp there was an article about the trenton breed and its origins can anyone on hear tell the story please lc


http://loftone.net/trentons.htm


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## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

i was told that conrad maher gave pigeons to a man to toss up for him ,the man met a fancier on the train and sold him one of mahers pigeons a red cock later to go back maher and become trenton anyone no this story?


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## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

Never heard that story but that does not mean it didn’t happen. What’s the genesis of your question? Are you interested in the history of this old family or you looking to buy some Trentons?


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## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

just interested in the train story and anyhow i am in England , although there is fanciers in England who keep this great old family. FOOTNOTE a ancestor of mine did spend some time in north America but i dont think he had pigeons .


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## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

Here is a good article written by the Master Trenton Brreder Otto Meyer “History of the Trentons” http://pigeon_racingsc.tripod.com/trentons.html . Mr Meyer is now deceased and I think it may be hard to substantiate the train story because no one in the USA really keeps Trentons anymore. Well there are a few fanciers that claim to have this bloodline which are kept mainly for nostalgia reasons.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

You could buy the book "I Kept Them Flying" by Conrad A. Mahr. You will find the _true train story_ in it.


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## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

i remenber reading the story in the racing pigeon weekly 20 years ago or longer, i thought it was a great bit of pigeon lore .lc


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

lordcornwallis said:


> i remenber reading the story in the racing pigeon weekly 20 years ago or longer, i thought it was a great bit of pigeon lore .lc


I like reading about all the "strain makers". Since pigeons haven't changed there is much to learn and if ya got the k-ho-nas not to worry about what every one else has to say, practice. I would think that in England there would be some great old Gurney stock to be had.


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## lordcornwallis (May 2, 2010)

both dear old England and America have many fine fanciers and pigeons. i hate the way in Europe they play down the American racing scene when it is every bit as good as Europe and the fanciers are just as good and dedicated , in some cases even better sometimes lc


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Offermans were what trentons was as race birds go. The trenton name was from the band. So really these were a family group of birds. Based on the offerman strain of racing pigeons


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> Offermans were what trentons was as race birds go. The trenton name was from the band. So really these were a family group of birds. Based on the offerman strain of racing pigeons


With out checking the band was 137. The loft it was in was located in Trenton, N.J.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> With out checking the band was 137. The loft it was in was located in Trenton, N.J.


And the the so called strain name comes from the band TRENTON. But the birds were offermans strain. of birds. And all the direct birds that bred the keys died in a fire. Of the trenton line of offermans. So the family group of offermans known as trentons were short lived at most then cross based on children grandchildren ect BUT we still have people who claim a pure line .


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> And the the so called strain name comes from the band TRENTON. But the birds were offermans strain. of birds. And all the direct birds that bred the keys died in a fire. Of the trenton line of offermans. So the family group of offermans known as trentons were short lived at most then cross based on children grandchildren ect BUT we still have people who claim a pure line .


John,

I don't know why BUT you give good sound advice on everything except the American Trenton. This link http://loftone.net/trentons.htm is on this site several times and a good place to get the general information about Trentons. Here is another http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/articles/Trenton.html. 

I'm just can not figure why you would try to re-wright the history of the Trenton. If I pointed out where you were wrong I would be repeating the last post you made with this same information.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> John,
> 
> I don't know why BUT you give good sound advice on everything except the American Trenton. This link http://loftone.net/trentons.htm is on this site several times and a good place to get the general information about Trentons. Here is another http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/articles/Trenton.html.
> 
> I'm just can not figure why you would try to re-wright the history of the Trenton. If I pointed out where you were wrong I would be repeating the last post you made with this same information.


Your links are saying what I have been saying. But everyone that raises birds from the long past believes they do. But like the river we can cross the same river twice.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> Your links are saying what I have been saying. But everyone that raises birds from the long past believes they do. But like the river we can cross the same river twice.


Ok. How can you read this _In 1898, a fire destroyed his home, loft and all his birds. Nonetheless, from the birds that were sent out prior to the fire, the Trenton strain went on to create a lasting legacy as the foundation of many of the great long distance lofts in the United States. _ and then say that all the Trentons were destroyed in a fire and as a strain they do not exist because of it?

I am filling my loft with Oshaben Trentons. And that is what they are; Trentons.

Did you have some really good birds get beat by Trentons in the past? Because I just don't understand your spin on this strain?

BTW I have no idea what it means to cross a river twice. Except that you wind up back on the original side. And how that fits you written word, I have no idea.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> Ok. How can you read this _In 1898, a fire destroyed his home, loft and all his birds. Nonetheless, from the birds that were sent out prior to the fire, the Trenton strain went on to create a lasting legacy as the foundation of many of the great long distance lofts in the United States. _ and then say that all the Trentons were destroyed in a fire and as a strain they do not exist because of it?
> 
> I am filling my loft with Oshaben Trentons. And that is what they are; Trentons.
> 
> ...


Birds were sold prior to the fire YES. But the KEY birds were killed in the fire. The birds were a family base Built around OFFERMAN birds. that set there type and features.. NO I was not BEAT by trenton birds. YES I have had Birds CALLED Trentons in the past. I am not aginst The Birds. It is that The bIrds called trentons Are not thew same as they were over 100 years ago. And Most would have a cross line bred into them now. and As the WATER is ever moving One can not cross the same river twice As That water has moved on and was replaced by a different water. It means Life to is ever changing Nothing remains the same. Trentons IS JUST a NAME The birds have moved on. MANY are no longer very good ANd others Are very good Because they were kept by CERTION peole that managed and crossed bred them to keep the value going. But WHY call them TRENTONS. . LIKE so old line birds They No longer exsist as there bred to be. But exsist In NAME BY a few. Is there a true WEGGE out there. Sinced Wegge Died so many years ago. NO but birds bred down from his are still there Hidden in MANY MANY strain line family line birds. Every time Trentons come up here It turns to a Debate. History shows MAN Moves forward. So MAN has MOVED the Trenton BASE birds Forward to His Needs. And Others Ruined Them That new NOT what they were doing.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

My own personal spin on this is that none of the present day "strains" are pure. If one would be able to go back far enough, somewhere along the line an outside bird of another "strain" was brought in and blended into the "strain". There are several "strains" that look quite distinctive, Trentons are one of them. If one were to mate an australian shepherd to a border collie, and then keep mating the offspring back to aussies, after a short time I doubt anyone could tell there was a border collie mixed in there way back when. Same with the pigeon "strains". I buy birds mainly for their ability not their pedigree saying they are a certain "strain". I have 3 "Trentons". Anyone can go into my loft and pick them out as they look distinctively different from any of the other "strains" in there. My question is: What does it matter?


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## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

Wow, here we go again! One thing I am hoping is that we have no Serious Dog enthusiast monitoring this site. Once they find out the originator of the Collie has been dead for hundreds of years they will probably take their beloved Lassie to the pound or even have them put down. OK, enough hurtful sarcasm. I shouldn’t make fun of those anti-strain folks…I totally agree with Akbird. Yes, it is very possible that there are other bloodline that have been brought into a family or strain, but it is possible that if someone is an accomplished breeder that they can maintain the same physical qualities of a family or strain. As Akbird mentioned, anyone with a speck of Pigeon knowledge can walk into a loft and pick out a True Trenton. I am sure this debate is not over and probably never will be. Also sure that you cannot cross the same waters twice especially when full of such B.S.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

OLDStrain..You are correct....Great example...Many years ago,pigeon buyers drove the Janssen Bros crazy,because they wanted RC Jansenns....And there were not any...So the Janssen Bros,went out and purchased a GREAT RCC,that was 1/2 Janssen...They brought that bird into THEIR COLONY,and in a couple of years,they were selling Janssens that were RCers....They were considered Janssens,and will always be called Janssens...If everyone read about all the great Champions in Europe,and how much money they spend on BUYING Champion pigeons from other Champion lofts,you ALL will realize that the word "Strain" no longer exists in it`s true form....But when Mr Champion of Holland,goes to Germany,and buys the #1 Sire/Champion,and breed it into HIS colony,the offspring are called what ever his (Holland) Name Is !!Alamo


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

OldStrain said:


> Wow, here we go again! One thing I am hoping is that we have no Serious Dog enthusiast monitoring this site. Once they find out the originator of the Collie has been dead for hundreds of years they will probably take their beloved Lassie to the pound or even have them put down. OK, enough hurtful sarcasm. I shouldn’t make fun of those anti-strain folks…I totally agree with Akbird. Yes, it is very possible that there are other bloodline that have been brought into a family or strain, but it is possible that if someone is an accomplished breeder that they can maintain the same physical qualities of a family or strain. As Akbird mentioned, anyone with a speck of Pigeon knowledge can walk into a loft and pick out a True Trenton. I am sure this debate is not over and probably never will be. Also sure that you cannot cross the same waters twice especially when full of such B.S.


In Part what you say is TRUE. But tell me Wasnt the type and set by the offerman birds That are now called trentons. So the traits Are set from the past. and It Is not BS. You say you Know pigeons . 1 You know it takes years of breeding to hard set a certion type On a bird. The trentons were lets say bred a short time By Conrad. But Bred longer by offerman. Now What I am saying The type in The trentons weres set as that type prior to them ever being named or called trentons. Certion birds today can show relation type to some of those trenton called birds as to original color lines. BUT today we have even whites called tretons As they have adde white color to birds And made the birds look like the old trenton/ offerman line. And Credit should go to the new age breeders as to what they did to keep the birds flying. As You know JUST A SMALL handful of people have tryed to keep the type and QUALITY up in the Trenton line. even crosses then resetting type in breeding. It still is there selection Not a selection from a 100 years ago. COULD those birds raced 100 years ago win today YES YES they could. Could select birds bred down from the old line birds win YES as long as selection is done and made. Do they looke like the old trenton. offerman birds YES they do. BUT are they. NO NO they are not they are the creation of the people that cultivated there quality. . a Ford is not a GMC. And fords today are much different then fords of years ago. All I am saying is YOU THE PERSON selects and breed your birds And in time YOU THAT PERSON created what you best want from the birds You set your mark. AND in most cases more people have influenced the TRENTON line the the original birds ever were. As the were bred and selected by conrad for what TEN YEARS. Heck most people are just getting started in 10 years. Call it BS But understand if you can claim NO CREDIT on how you manage your birds after how many years then how would anybody ever want those birds. The birds left to there own would not look the same fly the same But left to mans selection the birds go on to the mans need. TAKE CREDIT FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE Thank the people of the past but move on improve. try, cultivate. is not that what you are doing. Thats why People like the old timers had birds that did great THEY TRIED to make there birds into what they wanted AND NEVER WORRIED ABOUT THE NAME except when they bought birds to add to there need. I give up If trenton sounds good call them trentons BUT AT LEAST call them yours


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## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes the Trentons were developed from Birds of the Offerman Bloodline BUT they were crossed into a Family from a Gentleman by the name of Mccluthiun who originally obtained the Birds from Henri Soffle. Mccluthiun Birds were used as Ship-Bird, which may of given the Trentons there stamina and distance abilities. By combining these families the Trentons were created. So credit would have to go to Conrad Mahr. As for so many years of breeding by my Father and his Kids (75+ Years) I guess Credit already has been given to my Father, for those who love and have knowledge of Trentons refer to them as Oshaben Trentons, even as far as Australia and Taiwan.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

OldStrain said:


> Yes the Trentons were developed from Birds of the Offerman Bloodline BUT they were crossed into a Family from a Gentleman by the name of Mccluthiun who originally obtained the Birds from Henri Soffle. Mccluthiun Birds were used as Ship-Bird, which may of given the Trentons there stamina and distance abilities. By combining these families the Trentons were created. So credit would have to go to Conrad Mahr. As for so many years of breeding by my Father and his Kids (75+ Years) I guess Credit already has been given to my Father, for those who love and have knowledge of Trentons refer to them as Oshaben Trentons, even as far as Australia and Taiwan.


there we go oshaben trentons Now that reflects on what your family did with the birds. And yes offereman made the cross you referenced. As In GORDANS BIRDS Osman flew his birds from the ship also. Then gordan crossed Osmans and Buttias if I spelled right and formed his birds SHIP birds were at strong true test Of some of the distance birds As they had to fly or well you know . I used to have gordans . And some direct from him. also. Then a friend had TRENTONS he got all his Trentons from ART Nemachek He kept them for years May even still have a few. But He put his mark on his birds as every one does. So they are his base line birds. Thats what I refure to. We all after a time breed the birds different then what the original person did or would have.


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## poehlno (Jul 5, 2011)

Trenton, a few months back in racing pigeon digest magazine, there was an article about the origins and successes of the Trenton breed. For the life of me I cannot remember the volume number or the article number. Maybe someone with a library of past issues can help.
Norm


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

poehlno said:


> Trenton, a few months back in racing pigeon digest magazine, there was an article about the origins and successes of the Trenton breed. For the life of me I cannot remember the volume number or the article number. Maybe someone with a library of past issues can help.
> Norm


I think it was in October's issue.


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