# Sick Bird - Ideas?



## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

I have a pigeon in my loft that I noticed isn't doing so well. It looks like he has some kind of small growth in the lower front corner of his eye. Also he is acting normal, eating well but he is really losing weight. This morning I noticed a small splotch on the floor of the loft that was kind of a tan or yellowish color that may have been diarrhea but I don't know for certain. I didn't have time to check it this morning. I'll check it better tomorrow morning to see if that is what it is. Although I have 7 other pigeons in the loft so while I could assume it came from the sick one I can't be 100% certain. 

I'm pretty concerned about him. I've read through descriptions of tons of diseases they can get and can't find any with those symptoms.

Does anyone have any idea what this might be and what I can do for him?

BTW I live in the Portland Oregon area if anyone knows someone locally that might be able to help me. I just want to do something before he dies as he is looking really thin. I used to do wildlife rehab so I know how to check the breastbone of a bird and this one is pretty thin. We never rehabbed pigeons (only banded tail pigeons but they were very rare) so I'm not familiar with their diseases and how to treat them at all.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. Immediately isolate the one you think is ill. Bring him/her inside and keep warm and in a quiet location, in a carrier or box or such. I am PM'ing you the contact info of a member up in Portland (a favorite city of mine, BTW).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...bring him in, set him up on AWhite Paper Towels so you can see and count the poops.


Provide warmth...Water...


If Urates are 'yellow' and or saturating and 'paint like', then this is spent Leucocytes, suggesting what usually is a Canker illness and or Liver involvement.


Post some good, close up images of fresh poops soon as possible.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Oh ok I brought him in and set him up in a big bird cage we had up in our spare bedroom. I put both food and water in with him. But I didn't put down white paper towels. I'll go do that now.

I also covered the cage with a blanket. Should I do that or not?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi soaro,



It is good to drape/cover the Cage in these situations...and, when possible, to also provide supplimental warmth, such as an electric Heating Pad placed under half of the Cage floor area, so the Bird can be on it or off of that 'warm' area as he sees fit.


I usually just use a White Towel, but Paper Towels are good also...

If setting a Heating Pad under the Paper Towels, lay a layer or regular Towel over the Heating Pad, and, have the paper towels over that or just skip the paprer Towels and use a regular White Towel...set the Heating Pad so when the underside of your wrist is pressed against the surface the Bird will be on, it will feel just a little warmer than your own Body Temperature.

Most Cages this means the Heating Pad is in the Cage in ordert to be on the Cage Bottom.

One or two layers of Towel may be needed, depending on the Pad and the temperature Setting elected.


If he is pooping green 'jelly' dots and Urates, remove his Seeds.


Smear them with your finger tip to see if they are like jelly.


If pooping fecal matter, but the poops are tiny, remove his Seeds for now.



Phil
Lv


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

I took him to the vet today and after an outrageous emergency vet bill she told me he has an infection in his eye and one in his digestive system (I'm terrible with medical terminology). She gave me some Clavamox to give him for the internal infection and Trioptic soln drops to put in his eye. I'm keeping him inside until he is better.

She was a little surprised that he didn't have any e.coli or anything in his feces. I guess that is good, hopefully.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi soaro, 



I am having trouble seeing the good, close up, in focus, well lit, images of fresh poops.


And, of the Bird themselves.


Lol...

Please post those?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Oh sorry about that. I didn't know that is what you wanted me to do. Sometimes I'm slow like that.

Here is a picture of his poop and one of his eye tonight. This is his eye after they cleaned it up and put the drops in it one time. It was worse before I took him in. They also gave him one dose of the Clavamox.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Try the Avian Medical Center in Lake Oswego
Telephone # 503-635-5672


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi soaro,


I would suggest you obtain Metronidazole, and or appeal to the Vet for some a.s.a.p.


The 'yellow' paint-like saturating into the paper Urates, while not an absolute indicator of Canker/Trichomoniasis, are none the less a pretty sure bet.


Do not delay.


If appealing to the same Vet, print this message out and have them read it.



They missed seeing an illness which may will kill this Bird if left untreated for much longer.



Few Avian Vets recognise any of these impirical signs, and, unless specifically instructed to do so, will not even think to test for Canker/Trichomoniasis, nor are they familiar with it to think of testing for it or looking for signs of it, themselves.


Can you examine the Pigeon's Throat under a good light? Maytbe have someone help as you hold the Beak open?


Let us know if you see anything in there besides pink, healthy looking tissue?

Look deep!


Make sure the Pigeon's Butt/Vent are clean and kept clean.


If needing Butt/Vent Feather cleaning instructions, let us know...


Your Bird is probably somewhat dehydrated, also...encourage him to drink if you can...and, the ACV-Water would be ideal : Three Tablespoons or four if he will stand it, of raw, unfiltered, organic, Apple Cider Vinegar ( "BRAGGS", any Health Food Store ) for his drinking Water.


No forcing anything though please...



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Soaro....relating to the pigeon's illness...what kind of loft do you keep ? Are they homers/flyers ? Is it an open or closed loft ? Do they ever get outside ?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Did not mean to forger the Eye issue -


Usually, one would use the old 'PFIZER' Ophthalmologic Antibiotic Eye Ointment....comes in a tiny Tube.


If one can not get that, regular 'NEOSPORIN' may be used...

Apply by having a little 'squig' of the Ointment on a Q-Tip, and, gently roll the Q-Tip so there is no rubbing action, roll it onto the upper area of the top of the upper Eye Lid ( never onto or into the Eye Ball itself ) , for the 'squig' to transfer, where, the Bird's Body Warmth will melt the Ointment, and it will then distribute effortlessly and safely into the actual Eye.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Try the Avian Medical Center in Lake Oswego
> Telephone # 503-635-5672


That is where I took him. I have parrots and have been taking them to Dr. Litner for many years.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi soaro,
> 
> 
> I would suggest you obtain Metronidazole, and or appeal to the Vet for some a.s.a.p.
> ...



Wow, I'm not sure how to approach that. I guess I can call her first thing tomorrow morning and tell her that you believe it could be Canker and ask her if she tested for it. If I just ask her for the meds I wouldn't think they will just give them to you will they? Are there places you can buy the meds such as Wilco or something?

I can have my daughter hold the bird while I check the throat tomorrow morning.

I do need the butt/vent cleaning instructions. Sorry I'm very new to pigeons. We have never had any of these kinds of problems with our parrots so this is all new to me. Fortunately I used to do wildlife rehab so I know how to handle and check the bird and to administer whatever care is needed. I just don't really know anything about pigeon diseases and medications.

I have been keeping both his food dish with pellets and some seed in with him all the time. I'm also keeping a full water dish in with him. I don't know anything about ACV water but it looks like you pretty much explained it above. Do I just mix the ACV in with his water? Or do I give it to him orally with a syringe or what?

What do you mean by "No forcing anything through"? You mean do not administer anything via syringe? Not even the meds the vet gave me?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Call your Vet, get a follow up Visit for tomorrow...bring the Bird of course, bring fresh poops in clear sandwhich wrap also.

Tell the Vet you want them to complete the visit you paid for previously by testing for ( Crop Swab, then three seconds at the Microscope ) and providing Metronidazole for Trichomoniasis ( or Canker, if one prefers ).



They owe you a freebe for missing this on the first go-round.



No idea what a 'wilco' is.



Vet will have Metrnodazile on Tablets of 60 mG, and if not, try a Tropical Fish Store, for "Fishzole" and report back to us for dosing info.


I meant do not force the Bird to drink, and do not force liquids into their mouth or thoat.

If the Vet gave you 'dribble meds' which have to be dribbled into the Beak, then do that but do it very slowly and carefully.


But, far as hydration, drinking...allow the Bird to drink...provide tepid Drinking Water or ACV-Water if it is cold there.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Do the Throat exam as described above...and let us know what you see.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Do the Throat exam as described above...and let us know what you see.


OK I'll do that first thing in the morning.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Call your Vet, get a follow up Visit for tomorrow...bring the Bird of course, bring fresh poops in clear sandwhich wrap also.
> 
> Tell the Vet you want them to complete the visit you paid for previously by testing for ( Crop Swab, then three seconds at the Microscope ) and providing Metronidazole for Trichomoniasis ( or Canker, if one prefers ).
> 
> ...


It is a little chilly outside right now but not too bad. It is in the 40s to 50s day and night right now but raining a lot. But I'm keeping him inside until he is better. That way I remove the stress of fighting off the cold weather as well as the illness. I know from my rehab days that it is best to just keep them in a warm quiet spot and I have that all setup for him in the spare bedroom.

Wilco is a farm store but they have meds for poultry and farm animals as well as most everything else a farmer would need.

I'll call the vet first thing in the morning and see if I can get them to do those tests and give me the right meds.

Just FYI I paid almost $250 for todays vet visit. So I think I deserve the right tests and meds at no additional cost.


Curtis


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Curtis,


Ouch...I should say so! ( The Vet ought to do this follow up and any additional meds germain, for free ).

Print out my earlier Post and bring it with, kindly have them read it.

Have them to a Crop Swab, and a fast look see of that on a slide under the Miceroscope, if they have no impirical know how anmd have to rely on 'Tests'.



'WILCO'...probably would have the old, tiny Tube in a tiny Box, "PFIZER" Eye Ointment...


Hard to say for sure, for some reason, it is getting hard to find now.

If they do not have that one, they likely have some other true and proper Ophthomalogical Antibiotic Eye Ointment.


For Pete's sake, the Vet should have got that addressed while you and the Bird were there, and, the Vet would have that Antibiotic Eye OIntment Medicine on hand in the tiny Tube.


What did the AVet think the Eye issue was? A Cataract? 


Be diplomatic with the Vet of course, no need to rub it in or hit them over the head with it, but, it is important for this Bird to have this test done for Trichomoniasis ( Canker, which can occur anywhere in their System, not just in the Throat or Mouth ) ...and, the Vet, if they knew anything at all about Birds, would have smelled it, sensed it, noticed it and or done Tests for it also, since it is common among many species, and will end up being lethal if not alleviated by right Meds.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Curtis,
> 
> 
> Ouch...I should say so! ( The Vet ought to do this follow up and any additional meds germain, for free ).
> ...


She didn't really say exactly what any of it was. She just called it an infection. I didn't really understand at the time but now thinking back she said something about the eye infection going all the way down into the back of the birds throat. Hearing what you are saying it sounds to me like the eye infection is a separate issue from the Canker and that the Canker is probably what she saw in the throat.

It almost seems that she might not deal with pigeons all that much but she was telling me that they almost always carry e.coli or something in them and she was surprised that my bird had nothing like that in his poop. So she must deal with them at least some. I'm just really surprised she didn't know to test this for Canker. I also don't understand why she just said it was an infection and didn't tell me exactly what it was. 

I'll be getting my moneys worth tomorrow though. I'll be nice until they want to charge me more and at that point I'll become very ugly 

I sure do appreciate your help on this. I really like this bird. I'm a little torn now though because he went from a $5 bird to a $250 bird. Changes my outlook a little as to whether I want to release him to fly and risk him getting eaten by a hawk 


Curtis


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, you are a good Sport Curtis.



Good luck tomorrow!


Be looking forward to your report, and your success in getting the test and meds!


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Curtis, although the vet you went to is not my vet of choice, she does have a lot of experience with pigeons. She has rehabbed many in her clinic and done soft release form a building at the back of her clinic she calls her barn. I don't know if she still does that, but she did for years.
In birds, illness can be brought on by stress. Stress to birds can be a change in the weather, mating, not enough food, over crowding, etc. Birds living in a constant state of stress, such as birds used for dog training can even be more prone to illness, especially canker, as most pigeons already have single cell parasite in their system and stress causes an over growth making the parasite unmanageable. The swollen eye,in this case, may be very well related to canker, if the canker has invaded the sinus area.Often pigeons with canker also have a bacterical infection and need treatment for both.
If memory serves me correctly, you told me yesterday that you use your pigeons to train your dogs. 
I must be clear that I don't condone using any bird or animal to train another but I do commend you for stepping up to the plate, accepting responsibility and getting veterinary care for your pigeon. I understand that most, in this situation, would have disposed of the bird without a second thought.
I would encourage you to read the link I have attached for you.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f17/pigeons-needed-to-train-a-bird-dog-26114.html


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Soaro-Curtis...so, do you rescue and rehab ferals, then ? With the intent of releasing again ? Or do you keep them ?

Back on page 1, I had previously asked what sorta loft setup you have, what kind of birds there are in there ? Do they free-fly ? Do they home back ? How many do you keep ? Do you let them breed ? Do you ever sell them ?

Answers to these Q's can help us ascertain the disease-transferrence situation.

Y'all may be being a bit hard on the doc at the moment. The Pigeon was in hurtin' shape...it's good that you acted so promptly. For a rush visit in a big metro area, that pricetag (exam plus 2 separate prescriptions) ain't so outrageous. Definitely worth asking about the Canker med, though.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Charis said:


> Curtis, although the vet you went to is not my vet of choice, she does have a lot of experience with pigeons. She has rehabbed many in her clinic and done soft release form a building at the back of her clinic she calls her barn. I don't know if she still does that, but she did for years.
> In birds, illness can be brought on by stress. Stress to birds can be a change in the weather, mating, not enough food, over crowding, etc. Birds living in a constant state of stress, such as birds used for dog training can even be more prone to illness, especially canker, as most pigeons already have single cell parasite in their system and stress causes an over growth making the parasite unmanageable. The swollen eye,in this case, may be very well related to canker, if the canker has invaded the sinus area.Often pigeons with canker also have a bacterical infection and need treatment for both.
> If memory serves me correctly, you told me yesterday that you use your pigeons to train your dogs.
> I must be clear that I don't condone using any bird or animal to train another but I do commend you for stepping up to the plate, accepting responsibility and getting veterinary care for your pigeon. I understand that most, in this situation, would have disposed of the bird without a second thought.
> ...


Charis, thank you very much for your help. I know Dr. Litner told me yesterday that she used to rehab feral pigeons and release them back to the wild so I don't doubt her experience with them. I'm just curious why she wouldn't test for Canker but maybe she did. I'm not 100% certain. 

I called the vet this morning and she is out of the office today. They just called me back and apparently they talked to her this morning and they said she did test the bird for Canker. So apparently it isn't Canker.

Also this morning I had my daughter help hold the bird while I checked his mouth and throat with a flashlight and it all looked fine to me. It is all pink and looked really good. I went ahead and gave him the meds the vet gave me. I just dribbled a little at a time in the front of his beak and let him swallow it on his own. He took it very well.

As for using my birds for training the dog, I haven't used them for that purpose yet. Since I am completely new to pigeons and really don't know what I'm doing for the most part, I'm currently just working on trying to get them to home. They have only been out of the loft twice and both times just sat on the roof of my house and did nothing else. The first time I let them out and checked after they returned to the loft and one had completely vanished into thin air. I suspect a local coopers hawk got him and that is probably what scared the rest of the birds into returning to the loft. I never found feathers or anything so I can't say for certain but that other bird had no reason to leave the flock and they were all together on the roof of the house last I checked. 

Anyway, as of now they haven't been used for dog training. Even if I do use them to train my dog I will not in any way allow the birds to be harmed. I don't hunt with a gun so I will not be shooting birds or anything like that. I want to do my best to keep my birds and to keep them happy and healthy. Once my dog knows how to point birds I won't be using them any more for that purpose. I only have one dog to train so they won't really be used much for that. After that they will basically just be pets that I take out and let fly.

I love animals and would never intentionally harm one. If I allowed an animal in my care to just die without at least trying to help them I wouldn't be able to pass the mirror test.


Curtis


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Soaro-Curtis...so, do you rescue and rehab ferals, then ? With the intent of releasing again ? Or do you keep them ?
> 
> Back on page 1, I had previously asked what sorta loft setup you have, what kind of birds there are in there ? Do they free-fly ? Do they home back ? How many do you keep ? Do you let them breed ? Do you ever sell them ?
> 
> ...


Oops sorry about that. I forgot to respond to your questions.

I don't do rehab. I used to do wildlife rehab at the Portland Audubon Wildlife Care Center. We weren't allowed to rehab rock pigeons, only banded (native) and we got very few of those in. I just love animals and especially birds.

The loft I built is from the Red Rose starter loft plans ( http://www.redroselofts.com/starter_loft.htm ). I slightly modified mine so the front aviary is 2 doors instead of one huge one. Other than that I followed the plans completely.

The birds I have are all homing pigeons I bought from a local guy who has a ton of them. I believe he also races them. I got 11 birds. Two of them died and I didn't know why. They didn't die at the same time one died and a couple weeks later the second one died. They were healthy and seemed fine and I came out to feed them and they were just laying dead on the floor of the loft. One vanished from the roof of my house. So that leaves me the 8 that I have now. I want to free fly them but am still working on that. They have only been out of the loft twice. I don't breed or sell them and don't plan to. I may allow one pair to breed if I lose too many to hawks but I hope not to.

Curtis


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Would it hurt for me to go get some Fish Zole or Seachem Metronidazole and treat him with it anyway even though I'm treating him with the medication the vet gave me? It looks like I can get the Metronidazole at almost any fish shop. So I'm wondering if I should get some and treat him anyway just to be safe??? Or should I just stick with what the vet gave me and hope for the best?

Also, the eye ointment you said to use is the PFIZER Ophthalmologic Antibiotic Eye Ointment. Is that the same thing as PFIZER Terramycin Antibiotic Ophthalmic Ointment? I found a place that said they have Terramycin but it wasn't the PFIZER brand so I wasn't sure if that is the same thing or not. And should I use that along with the drops the vet gave me or instead of them or what?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. Thanks for the explanation on the dogs. You know, a lotta folks take pigeons, tie up their feet and clip their wings, and allow their dogs to basically slaughter the birds...and call it "dog training". You even see the bastards selling their pigeons on Craigslist for this purpose. Unbelieveable but true. I am glad you explained that a bit more.

(But....you wanna train your dog to point... but not for hunting ?  I don't get it). Also, please don't do anything which would stress the pigeons into thinking they are being predated by the dog. This can really mess with their health, even if the dog never touches 'em. Lastly, just FYI in case you didn't know...the smallest of scratches/bites/saliva contact from a dog/cat/hawk/other with a bird can kill it w/i 24-48 hours even if you intercede and flush the wound. Birds can become infected very easily; their bloodstream overrun quickly; and they are incapable of 'fighting off' infection the way mammals are. You may already know this, so sorry if I am stating the obvious.

Regarding hawks....keep an eye out for the hawks. I mean, really visually comb the area . They really case a location for days and days before striking. They are not obvious if you are unsuspecting. But if you are looking for 'em, they are kinda obvious. Damn coopers usually don't strike from very far away and they tend to hide relatively low (although they will choose the highest tree oftentimes). Do not let 'em out if you see a hawk around. Alter the times you let the birds out. Keep an air horn on hand, the obnoxious high-pitched ones.
Some folks say that a string of CD's spaced about 12" apart, strung up near the loft, deters hawks due to the movement and reflection. I also have used a mirror at the entrance to the sleeping area, in case any coopers gets the idea to come inside. They don't like seeing other hawks when they are out for a kill.
And if you spot one within adequate distance...throw something at it. At every opportunity.

Regarding the Homers...if you bought them as adults from someone else, I do not believe they can really adequately be trained to home back to YOUR loft. I believe they would have the proclivity to return to where they were born. It is the generations which are actually born at your loft which will home back. 

Metronidazole can be given concurrently with antibiotics, BTW. It shoudln't HURT any. Suspension 25mg/ml dosed at .10 cc, twice a day, for 7 days. I think you should just stick with the eye ointment prescribed and not start changing or adding something else.


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Hi. Thanks for the explanation on the dogs. You know, a lotta folks take pigeons, tie up their feet and clip their wings, and allow their dogs to basically slaughter the birds...and call it "dog training". You even see the bastards selling their pigeons on Craigslist for this purpose. Unbelieveable but true. I am glad you explained that a bit more.
> 
> (But....you wanna train your dog to point... but not for hunting ?  I don't get it). Also, please don't do anything which would stress the pigeons into thinking they are being predated by the dog. This can really mess with their health, even if the dog never touches 'em. Lastly, just FYI in case you didn't know...the smallest of scratches/bites/saliva contact from a dog/cat/hawk/other with a bird can kill it w/i 24-48 hours even if you intercede and flush the wound. Birds can become infected very easily; their bloodstream overrun quickly; and they are incapable of 'fighting off' infection the way mammals are. You may already know this, so sorry if I am stating the obvious.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for all the info. Since I've had parrots for years I definitely know how fragile birds are, especially to dog and cat scratches and bites. If I use the birds to train my dog the dog actually won't get anywhere near the birds. I would just plant the bird somewhere in a field and when the dog points I would release the bird to fly home and then reward the dog for staying on point. I use all positive training (no shock collar or pinch collar is going on my dog) so I have to do a lot of experimenting to find ways to do things traditional hunting dog trainers do with methods I don't approve of (shooting birds, giving birds to the dog to kill, shocking the dog, etc.). But you can be sure I won't in any way risk the dog getting the birds.

I know a lot about hawks so definitely know to look for them. Unfortunately coopers hawks are extremely good at hiding and just appearing from nowhere.

My birds were all young. I read that if you get them before they are 3 months old that they can learn to home to your loft. If I remember correctly the guy told me my birds were somewhere between 2 and 3 months old when I got them. They were all fledged though and capable of flying. You could tell they had never been let out though. The first time I opened the loft for them they eased out very slowly. They didn't know what to expect. It took them like an hour just to to work their way up to the roof of my house. I'm trying to get them to associate a whistle I do with feeding so when I whistle like that they know it is time to eat and hopefully I can get them to return to the loft with my whistle. So far it isn't working though. I don't think they have associated the whistle with feeding. They have associated me with it though. They get all excited when I go out there in the morning.

The eye drops the vet gave me isn't an ointment. It is actual drops.


Curtis


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images of recent poops de-jur?


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

OK here are the pictures for day 2. Poop doesn't really look any better to me but the eye does.



















Curtis


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

soaro77 said:


> Would it hurt for me to go get some Fish Zole or Seachem Metronidazole and treat him with it anyway even though I'm treating him with the medication the vet gave me? It looks like I can get the Metronidazole at almost any fish shop. So I'm wondering if I should get some and treat him anyway just to be safe??? Or should I just stick with what the vet gave me and hope for the best?


Soaro77, I am late to the thread, but looking at those last droppings I would advise you to go ahead and pick up the Fish-Zole or Seachem Metronidazole and treat him with it. You are in good hands with the people helping you out in this thread, if you pick up the Metronidazole, let us know and we'll tell you how to mix and dose it.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Soaro77, I am late to the thread, but looking at those last droppings I would advise you to go ahead and pick up the Fish-Zole or Seachem Metronidazole and treat him with it. You are in good hands with the people helping you out in this thread, if you pick up the Metronidazole, let us know and we'll tell you how to mix and dose it.
> 
> Good luck with him,
> 
> Karyn


I agree. Those droppings didn't look any better than the first ones. I'll go pick up some Metronidazole tomorrow. 

I would very much appreciate it if someone can explain to me how to mix it. The place I found to get it has the Seachem Metronidazole. I'm not sure of its strength and if it is powder, tabs or liquid. I can post that info tomorrow when I get it unless someone can explain how to mix it without knowing that.

Curtis


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Eye looks hella better !! I say just keep using the stuff you have been using.

Just passing along my experiences of cooper hawks...when they find a waiting place, or two, they return to 'em again and again, particularly if they were successful or resulted in near-catches. That is why I say they are predictable once you can initially locate 'em. Just gotta practice vigilance in really trying to spot 'em initially. Becomes somewhat easier when trees are sans leaves. It does take work, however...but, you wanna try to do what you can for your flock, eh ?

OK...2-3 mos. they stand a better chance of homing back then. I thought they were adults.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

soaro77 said:


> I agree. Those droppings didn't look any better than the first ones. I'll go pick up some Metronidazole tomorrow.
> 
> I would very much appreciate it if someone can explain to me how to mix it. The place I found to get it has the Seachem Metronidazole. I'm not sure of its strength and if it is powder, tabs or liquid. I can post that info tomorrow when I get it unless someone can explain how to mix it without knowing that.
> 
> Curtis


Curtis, the Seachem Metronidazole will come in a small tube/vial and in the vial will be a little scoop that the instructions will tell you holds 100mg of Metronidazole. Get a shot-glass, and into this place 3 scoops of the Seachem Metronidazole (300mg) and to this add 5mL of pancake syrup, stir for a minute, cover and let sit 1/2 hour, stir well again and it will be ready for use, you now have a 6% (60mg/mL) Metronidazole suspension. You will give your little guy 0.30cc (to the third line on a 1cc syringe) this will be 18mg, and you will do this every 12 hours. Make sure you stir/shake it very well just before drawing a dose. If what you end up buying is different than what I have given you instructions on, please let me know and I will adjust things according to what you have.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The Bubbles in the poops would be a sign to my mind of some Yeast troubles in the lower GI.


I know I harp all the time about Canker and Candida/Yeasts, but, those two are often occuring along with Bacterial issues.


If it was me, I would be treating with Medistatin, in addition to the Metronidazole, and, the Oral Antibiotics the Vet supplied for what she construed to be an 'infection'.


That is one weird shade of Orange-Yellow there in the Urates.


I do not see that very often here.


What is the Antibiotic the Vet supplied?


And, how does the Bird seem today, overall, fas as if they feel better, worse, the same, or?


Phil
Lv


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> The Bubbles in the poops would be a sign to my mind of some Yeast troubles in the lower GI.
> 
> 
> I know I harp all the time about Canker and Candida/Yeasts, but, those two are often occuring along with Bacterial issues.
> ...



Where can I get Medistatin? And how do I dose it?

The medicine the vet gave me is Clavamox and has me giving him 0.4ml orally twice daily for 7 days.

It is possible my camera flash is making it look more orange. When I look at it with my eyes it looks more of a yellowish color and not as orange.

The bird seems to be improving. Before he would run from me a little but not really that much. Today he really ran from me when I put my hand in to get him. He seemed to have a lot more energy. I also don't think his breast bone was quite as sharp. He had his eye open and was blinking it and I think was able to see out of it today. He seemed to know my hand was there even on that side. So to me he seems to be improving. My daughter thought the same thing.

I was unable to get to the store today to get the Metronidazole so I'm going to go at lunch tomorrow and get it. But I would like to get the Medistatin at the same time if I can figure out where to get it.

Curtis


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Curtis,


Ahhh, well...the 'yellow' and especially when Paint-Like Urates...if it was me, I would have the Bird on Metronidazole for a week, in addition to the Antibiotic.


'Medistatin' - for treating Yeats/Candida - I do not believe is to be had over very many Counters.

Pigeon Supply Stores would have it, over the Counter or through the Mails.

Otherwise, I imagine it is by prescription and not readily available.


ACV-Water can help with Crop conditions having Yeass or Candida troubles...but, the lower farther down ones, you pretty well need the Medistatin or Nytsatin ( same med, different forms ).



Phil
Lv


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Curtis,
> 
> 
> Ahhh, well...the 'yellow' and especially when Paint-Like Urates...if it was me, I would have the Bird on Metronidazole for a week, in addition to the Antibiotic.
> ...


Should I order some Medistatin from an online pigeon supply store? If I did that will he be ok until I get it as long as I treat him with the Metronidazole and the meds the vet gave me? Or should I just treat him with those 2 meds and see how it goes from there? I'm willing to do whatever I need to do to get him better.

As for the ACV water, if I make some of that do I just put it in a water dish for him to drink when he wants? Or do I use a syringe and drip it in the front of his beak? Or how do I give it to him?


Curtis


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

soaro77 said:


> Should I order some Medistatin from an online pigeon supply store? If I did that will he be ok until I get it as long as I treat him with the Metronidazole and the meds the vet gave me? Or should I just treat him with those 2 meds and see how it goes from there? I'm willing to do whatever I need to do to get him better.
> 
> As for the ACV water, if I make some of that do I just put it in a water dish for him to drink when he wants? Or do I use a syringe and drip it in the front of his beak? Or how do I give it to him?
> 
> ...


Curtis, thanks for mentioning he is on Clavamox, as this med may also be contributing to making his urates look even a bit more off in color. You can mix the ACV (apple cider vinegar, organic with live "mother wort") into his drinking water, start with a teaspoon to a quart. I would order the Medistatin, this is a good med to have around if you have pigeons and can really be a like saver at times. Please do get and start him on the Metronidazole and I am glad to hear he is felling a bit better.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I forgot where you are located.


The Medistatin I am familiar with comes in a kind of large container and nothing smaller. This runs like 40-somehting dollars if memory serve.


You'd need one one-hundredth of the contents for this Bird's regimen, if that.


Maybe me or someone else here could just send you some.

Otherwise, the ACV-Water is usually like three or four Tablespoons of "BRAGGS" ( any Health Food Store ) Organic, Raw, Unfiltered ( Yummy ) Apple Cider Vinegar, to a Gallon of Water, and, the Bird simply drinks this as his drinking Water.


If it was me, and thbis were my Bird, I would treat them with the Metronidazole for a week...and, in a few days, one should see meaningful changes in the Urates then, affirming the conjecture of either Canker, or some other Protozoan illness causing Liver and Leucocyte issues...while continueing with the Clavamox the Vet had provided.



Canker and Candida occur in probably two out of every five downer Pigeons I deal with...ever time I had a Vet do a 'test;' to see if my opbservations were correct, the results were that my observations were correct.

If your vet tested for Canker and the results said no Canker, then, hmmmmmm...either the person speaking for the Vet is fibbing, or, the Test was done wrong, or, the test was only done for the Esophagus or Crop maybe, but, the Bird can have it elsewhere and lower, and show negative to the upper GI test...so...

My friendly wager, is that if treated for Canker ( Trichomoniasis ), you will soon see the Urates assume a normal, paste like, and white condition, instead a saturating, paint like and yellow one.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Karyn,


I used to use Clavamox a lot for the Dog and Cat or Hawk mauled Pigeons...and, I recall nothing for it causing 'yellow' Urates.


B Vitamins can cause a yellowish tint to their Urates, same as they do for people pee...but the Urates remain a 'Paste' which stands on it's own, and, not a saturating or paint like liquid.


Curtis, 


Were the Urates any different before the Clavamox?


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Karyn,
> 
> I used to use Clavamox a lot for the Dog and Cat or Hawk mauled Pigeons...and, I recall nothing for it causing 'yellow' Urates.
> 
> ...


Phil, I have noticed that there have been a few times with both Clavamox and Medistatin that there was what I saw as extra "color" to the droppings. Phil this is how I understand how things work, because birds do not have a bladder the kidneys reclaim water instead of storing it like in mammals that have bladders. The uric acid crystals that would be in the urine are concentrated out as "urates" and expelled with a small amount of urine and fecal solids to form a dropping. Things that can color urine, like the B-vitamins you mention, and I have found Medistatin and IMO Clavamox can tinge the color or the urates being concentrated out of the urine. What I was trying to say already "off" looking droppings can appear even more "off" depending on what certain things are being given/ingested by the bird, so already yellowish looking droppings might even look a deeper yellow color.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Karyn,


Oh, okay...understood.



For that matter...if one has a Pigeon making unambiguously "White" Urates, but, which are 'paint like' and saturating into the Cage Towel or Paper...

One can just wait and see where it goes...and, unless the Bird manages a spontaneous remission of this symptom, where does it go? In a few more days, the Urates are slightly yellowy and paint like, and, a few more days, definitely a strong yellow, and, then, the Bird is looking very miserable indeed, and, soon dead.


Treating with Metronidazole, for the Birds I get in anyway, occasions a remission of this symptom, and, permits them to live.



The consistency ( Paste? or, like 'paint' oir like Watercolor Paint? ) is the primary indicator, and, the color, when yellow, is then tinted of spent Lecocytes as far as I imagine, is significant in context, and suggesting a far more advanced degree of infection than the paint-like saturating 'White' Urates.

Always, of course, what is the context?


What is the consistency of the Urates?


And, what is their color or tint... 


No meds I have ever used cause Watercolor-Like or Paint Like Urates, even IF some meds or Vitamins may slightly 'tint' or cause something to tint the Urates.



Far as what I see in the Birds I deal with, off poops are of endless kinds...off urates, of only a few kinds.

Off in the endless varieties of 'off' is one thing.

Unambiguous "Paint Like" Urates, whether White, or of any tint, should be taken seriously in my opinion, as an impirical indicator of probable Trichomoniasis or possibly other illness which generally ( not always, but, generally ) will answer to Metronidazole, or, in some occasions, to one of the other 'zoles'...or to some combination of a 'zole' and, an Antibiotic.


So I understand what you were saying, that meds can effect poops/fecal-matter or urates.


What I am saying, is that no meds I have ever used, cause Paijnt-Like Urates...and the 'Paint LIke' is the primary impirical indicator with this, with the tint, secondary or associated or suggesting heavy spent Leucocyte content, which, of course, suggests infection or inflamitory conditions somewhere in the Bird's system.


Tinted 'Paste' like Urates are something few of us will ever see, unless the Bird has had some hefty B Vitamins the night before.


If Pigeons ate Asperagus, possibly they would they could then have faintly green tinted Urates, but, still, Paste Like.


Lol...


Best wishes,


Phil
Lv


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Karyn,
> 
> 
> I used to use Clavamox a lot for the Dog and Cat or Hawk mauled Pigeons...and, I recall nothing for it causing 'yellow' Urates.
> ...


I don't remember what his urates looked like before the Clavamox. At the time I didn't really know what I was looking for. If I remember correctly though I think they were yellowish color.

I picked up some of the Seachem Metronidazole today and made it up with the pancake syrup as Karyn suggested and gave him the first dose this evening. I'm still giving him the meds from the vet. His eye is definitely improving. I'll continue giving him the Metronidazole twice a day for a week.

I'm not confident the Clavamox is helping anything though. He doesn't really seem to be gaining any weight and his mutes still look exactly the same. He has more spunk though. 

I'm not sure exactly how the vet tested for Canker. I just know that after 3 days of the Clavamox not much has changed except he is more spunky. I'm confident the Metronidazole is going to help though. I'll continue posting updates and will post pictures of his mutes if they change. No reason to keep posting pictures of the same thing 


Curtis


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Ok I have to give kudos to you guys for all your help. My bird is improving. His urates are very light yellow now, close to white He is gaining weight and looking almost normal again. After 3 days of Clavamox he had no improvement at all but now after just 2 days of Metronidazole he has made huge improvements. I'm very happy with how he is coming along now and really glad to see him putting some meat back on his bones. Thank you all very much.


Curtis


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Curtis, glad to hear he is responding to treatment and improving. Please keep him on the Metronidazole for 7 days and finish the full course of treatment with the Clavamox.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Good news. Poor guy had multiple infections. How are your other birds holding up ? Any signs of problems with them ? Also, if you haven't already,. might be a good idea to give the loft a serious cleaning ASAP.....


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Good news. Poor guy had multiple infections. How are your other birds holding up ? Any signs of problems with them ? Also, if you haven't already,. might be a good idea to give the loft a serious cleaning ASAP.....


The other birds are all doing great. They are all very healthy. I need to get them all flying but that is a different post. I'll post in another section of the forum to find out what I'm doing wrong there. 

Yesterday I was off work so I did just that. I gave the loft a really good cleaning. 

I'm not going to put this guy back out into the loft until he is done with the meds and his weight is back up to normal.


Curtis


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

I just wanted to post the final update to this. The Metronidazole cured my bird as you all said. He is doing great and is back out with the other pigeons in the loft. He has been out there now for a week and is doing great. I just wish I would have tried this before I spent $250 for the vet. Oh well, he is healthy and happy again so I'm happy. Thank you all so much for your help.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

soaro77 said:


> I just wanted to post the final update to this. The Metronidazole cured my bird as you all said. He is doing great and is back out with the other pigeons in the loft. He has been out there now for a week and is doing great. I just wish I would have tried this before I spent $250 for the vet. Oh well, he is healthy and happy again so I'm happy. Thank you all so much for your help.


This is great news! I am so very happy that our members were able to help you and your birds! I know the vet bill was a pain, but bless you for caring enough about your birds to incur this charge .. you're a special one!

Terry


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

TAWhatley said:


> This is great news! I am so very happy that our members were able to help you and your birds! I know the vet bill was a pain, but bless you for caring enough about your birds to incur this charge .. you're a special one!
> 
> Terry


Thank you very much. I've kind of taken a liking to that bird. I haven't really named any of them yet because I'm horrible with coming up with names and would probably just get them all confused. But when I took this one to the vet they wanted a name and I didn't have one so they just called him Homer. I liked it so it stuck and now I call him Homer. He is the only one with a name so far  But he is doing great and when I go out to feed them he is first in line. He actually acts more comfortable around me than the others. Kinda neat.


Curtis


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## soaro77 (Oct 10, 2010)

I just wanted to let you all know, Homer is my best and strongest flier. When I got them all flying finally, he was the first one to take off and he has been leading the others since. He also flies about 10 minutes longer than all the others. I guess he is just super excited to have gotten a second chance


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

soaro77 said:


> I just wanted to let you all know, Homer is my best and strongest flier. When I got them all flying finally, he was the first one to take off and he has been leading the others since. He also flies about 10 minutes longer than all the others. I guess he is just super excited to have gotten a second chance


Curtis, it's wonderful hear things really turned out so well for Homer and is now even your strongest flier. I am glad he got a second chance too .

Karyn


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