# Rough Eggshell



## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

I have a hen that just laid the first egg of her life (yearling) and it is very rough and textured. The birds have plenty of calcium available to them. I was wondering if any of you have run into this and what could be the cause. Could it be because she is a "1st timer" and do you think the 2nd egg will be different. The egg does not appear to be thin-shelled, it just has random bumps all over it, looks like calcium deposits almost. All the other hens in the loft are on eggs and all of them are normal.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

As I mentioned in my other posts, birds that came out from those eggs don't turn out to be healthy birds. Your mileage vary. I learned my lesson and will not try it again. Basically the birds get sick often, and weak. When they fly they don't have stamina. I suppose something went wrong during egg formation so they have rough and textured shells which may imply to me that it is not a healthy process. This is just my opinion though after trying things out.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

RodSD said:


> As I mentioned in my other posts, birds that came out from those eggs don't turn out to be healthy birds. Your mileage vary. I learned my lesson and will not try it again. Basically the birds get sick often, and weak. When they fly they don't have stamina. I suppose something went wrong during egg formation so they have rough and textured shells which may imply to me that it is not a healthy process. This is just my opinion though after trying things out.


Do you think this could be because it is her first egg? Or should I be concerned of the health of the hen?


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I would say probly just something to do with being the first egg. Your birds looked really healthy in your video you posted the other day so I don't think it's that the bird is sick.


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

RodSD said:


> As I mentioned in my other posts, birds that came out from those eggs don't turn out to be healthy birds. Your mileage vary. I learned my lesson and will not try it again. Basically the birds get sick often, and weak. When they fly they don't have stamina. I suppose something went wrong during egg formation so they have rough and textured shells which may imply to me that it is not a healthy process. This is just my opinion though after trying things out.


It that a little pessimistic? You have ruled this bird out even before the hen starts sitting on it. I hope you are not so sure of everything in your world.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Calcium deposits on eggs are common in birds and not a big deal. Nothing wrong with the egg or the baby. At least the hen had enough calcium to make those extra deposits.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

GEMcC5150 said:


> It that a little pessimistic? You have ruled this bird out even before the hen starts sitting on it. I hope you are not so sure of everything in your world.


Yeah, I am pessimistic now after trying 3 different eggs that had that condition. I am one of those people that like to test for himself any theory out there. Someone said pigeon can't fly in the dark. Well I tested that one, too.

The bird obviously hatched except that the birds didn't end up healthy. They get sick often while their counterparts are not. It is not good to have birds that get sick often. It makes your other birds get sick, too. I didn't kill those birds. The hawk did it. And hawk knows who is the weakest....

I think people should test this by themselves. I have tested it on mine and I am not going to repeat it.

This rough eggshell indicates health issues in the end for the future baby. Now if you don't mind having birds that are easy to get sick, then that is ok, too. It is up to your standards.

In homing/racing pigeons, you are looking for birds that are hardy and have good performance.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Do you think this could be because it is her first egg? Or should I be concerned of the health of the hen?


Yes, that would be my guess as well. Her system is not fully functional. My hen looked healthy as well.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Once or twice I have had a young hen lay an egg that was half size of normal. None have ever hatched. Has anyone ever had one of "those" hatch and the bay lived? Did it grow to normal size?

I have had rough eggs before and the babies didn't seem any different than babies from smooth eggs. Might be harder for the baby to break out of the egg shell at hatching time though. I can't say.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

RodSD said:


> As I mentioned in my other posts, birds that came out from those eggs don't turn out to be healthy birds. Your mileage vary. I learned my lesson and will not try it again. Basically the birds get sick often, and weak. When they fly they don't have stamina. I suppose something went wrong during egg formation so they have rough and textured shells which may imply to me that it is not a healthy process. This is just my opinion though after trying things out.


My mentor said to toss the eggs the young will never be good birds, let alone great birds which is what we are after. I have a few birds I feel sorry for they will never make fliers or breeders and you can't afford to keep them all.
Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> My mentor said to toss the eggs the young will never be good birds, let alone great birds which is what we are after. I have a few birds I feel sorry for they will never make fliers or breeders and you can't afford to keep them all.
> Dave


Your mentor seems experienced and highly observant. I already know that eggs with those characteristic may not turn out right, but being me (I like to test people's theory), decided to test it.

There is also this theory about splayed leg having to do with either calcium or lack of nesting materials. I ended up not believing that now. Oh yeah, one of my splayed bird came from a rough or bumpy egg. That occurred before my 3 eggs experiment. I didn't notice it before.

I also noticed and tested it as well the one egg is rough and the other smooth from the same nest bowl. When the babies hatched one was bigger and the other smaller. The bigger was healthier and more active. The smaller was the opposite. Both eggs are the same size from the same parents. The only difference is that rough texture. I have already convinced myself the value of these egg theory. I think rough eggs have health issue. That is my point.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> Once or twice I have had a young hen lay an egg that was half size of normal. None have ever hatched. Has anyone ever had one of "those" hatch and the bay lived? Did it grow to normal size?


I have a nest back there right now where the hen layed one almost normal size egg and one a lil bigger then half the normal size. She's a real late hatch from last year she was banded sometime in September. I wasn't trying to pair her up yet I was just keeping her in the breeding coop for stock and maybe hoping to get a round or two out of her later in the season. Well one of the cocks I was trying to pair with another hen wouldn't take the hen I was trying to put him with but he took to this young hen and she wound up laying those eggs. Well I checked them at about a week and saw the veins in the eggs but I figured the smaller egg wouldn't fully develop. Then I checked them again at about 14 days and the bigger egg was good. But the smaller egg looked half empty so I figured it was gonna be a dud but I left in the nest anyway. Well when I checked 3 days ago they had 2 babies in the nest that were about the same size and both seam to be doing pretty good I've gotta band them in the next couple of days. But I have no clue which baby came from which egg. I had it one time where the two eggs were small and when they hatched they looked about the same size as a baby dove when they hatch but those two didn't make it.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I never had half the size of an egg, but I had egg that was smaller than the nestmate egg like yours and they hatched fine as well. I find it really strange. I thought bigger egg means it will end up with bigger birds. LOL!


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

Rod no disrespect I thank you for your input I have not had rough eggs or smaller eggs yet so I was only asking.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*First small eggs there two times one might see a small egg that is the first egg that the hen lays and the second time is her last egg that she might lay before becomming barren. * .GEORGE


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I say when in doubt toss the egg.. see how her next round goes.. usually a smooth glossy egg means heathly parent birds.. which in turn means healthy young.. so it may because of her first egg or she may be prone to these ruff shelled eggs.. time will tell.... if the young is not up to par from the odd egg, then you will have an extra bird to find a place for..


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

GEMcC5150 said:


> It that a little pessimistic? You have ruled this bird out even before the hen starts sitting on it. I hope you are not so sure of everything in your world.


Why would it be pessimistic if he's basing it from his negative experiences? That's just the name of the game if you want only the best in your loft. My experience with eggs like that is that they don't reach their full potential when it comes to the basket. Never had one with any known health issues but they just weren't in the top 10% of birds in their class.


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

It just my looking at everything from a glass full point of view. I am always looking for the good in people and things so to anyone who reject the unborn is to me a little pessimistic. But that my world view and as a missionary and pastor I would want it no other way.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

GEMcC5150 said:


> It just my looking at everything from a glass full point of view. I am always looking for the good in people and things so to anyone who reject the unborn is to me a little pessimistic. But that my world view and as a missionary and pastor I would want it no other way.


I don't argue at all with your point of view but to judge a mans heart from a comment regarding pigeon eggs was a little much. IMHO


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I've never had anything but smooth eggs with pigeons, although I have had some rounder ones and smaller ones. I can't say "that baby was disadvantaged because it's eggshell wasn't right" because by the time I see them, they are both hatched  How do you mark each baby to know which one hatched from which egg?


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Im just anxious to see if the 2nd one is the same way---if she lays a 2nd one


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I you ask me if your birds are laying enough rough looking eggs to do a study on them I would have to say you have a problem in your loft with your birds in general .Just my take on it from what I have read here .


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Im just anxious to see if the 2nd one is the same way---if she lays a 2nd one


 If I were you southtown I would just let it hatch out and do your own study to see where this rough egged chick takes you if it hatches at all and then we can all refer back to what transpires from it as a referance. I am ready for that jouney if you want to keep us all updated on it if you so chose to take on this mighty task . You can start a new thread called the little pigeon that could or not . lol


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

GEMcC5150 said:


> Rod no disrespect I thank you for your input I have not had rough eggs or smaller eggs yet so I was only asking.


No disrespect taken. I was just sharing my experience. And let us not get ruffled up with different opinions, beliefs and standards.

As I said people should test this by themselves and draw their own conclusions.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

PigeonVilla said:


> If I were you southtown I would just let it hatch out and do your own study to see where this rough egged chick takes you if it hatches at all and then we can all refer back to what transpires from it as a referance. I am ready for that jouney if you want to keep us all updated on it if you so chose to take on this mighty task . You can start a new thread called the little pigeon that could or not . lol


I agree. Like any other scientists test the claim and see your own results. Then share your experiences so that we can either update or change our beliefs/conclusions.

The null hypothesis would be that there is no health issues or performance issues from the future baby.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I say when in doubt toss the egg.. see how her next round goes.. *usually a smooth glossy egg means heathly parent birds.. which in turn means healthy young*.. so it may because of her first egg or she may be prone to these ruff shelled eggs.. time will tell.... if the young is not up to par from the odd egg, then you will have an extra bird to find a place for..


I have the same hypothesis.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

PigeonVilla said:


> If I were you southtown I would just let it hatch out and do your own study to see where this rough egged chick takes you if it hatches at all and then we can all refer back to what transpires from it as a referance. I am ready for that jouney if you want to keep us all updated on it if you so chose to take on this mighty task . You can start a new thread called the little pigeon that could or not . lol


I agree here. Give it a go and find out for yourself then let us know how it works out.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I agree here. Give it a go and find out for yourself then let us know how it works out.


We shall see. If she lays another normal egg, I will let her set on that one and a foster egg from another pair that broke one of their eggs. This will allow the broken egg pair to go down on eggs again


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

good point... give it a try it migth be one of those i should of and i would of! u never know keep us posted.


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

Ted P said:


> Its culling. Thats all. Look at the definition for the word cull.


From Wikipedia, the 
Culling is the process of removing animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done in order either to reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group. For livestock and wildlife, the process of culling usually implies the killing of animals with undesirable characteristics.

Is this what you advise? I hope you would find a home for the unwanted bird.


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## vandergill (Jun 29, 2008)

I recently purchased a DVD on the egg, according to the "expert" presenting this DVD, you can tell alot from just looking at the egg, texture, symetry, calcium deposits, thin walls...... and much more.

His advice is that if you have calcium deposits..... get rid of it, he also goes on to show you the difference in the birds, the asymetry for example he shows where the one wing has developed nicely, however on opening the other with you can immediately see that it is underdeveloped with fluting of the flights. He shows this on about 4 different birds..........maybe there is something to it


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Well the rough egg was not meant to be...it cracked. Not because it was rough, but because I dropped it The good new is that the hen laid her 2nd egg and it is smooth and perfect!!


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## AlaskaFlyer (Feb 4, 2011)

wow, some very interesting perspectives on this thread. not only of the cause of the egg, but how it should be handled.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Well the rough egg was not meant to be...it cracked. Not because it was rough, but because I dropped it The good new is that the hen laid her 2nd egg and it is smooth and perfect!!


Lol...now we'll never know!....


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I would use the analogy of an old car for my thoughts on the issue. You look at an old car and its paint is rusted, its fender is dinged and the rest is faded. The shell is bumpy, a bit oblong, too fat, etc. When you pop the hood is a fine tuned masterpiece of an engine. In my opinion the shell has one purpose and that is to protect the embryo and the contents. It is what inside the makes the car run. The outside is for looks. Back to the theory, if we breed for Phenotype and not Genotype we will get nice looking birds, with pretty eyes, one pin tails, etc, etc, etc. Next time you get a bumpy egg, fly it and use the basket as a basis. 
Mark and I were talking about the throat theory the other day. Came up with the theory that if the bird was an excellent racer with once a good throat that went bad due to a long race, stress etc, how could that change the genetic make-up of the bird and effect what is passed on to the offspring. As for a racer the throat might have merit. As for breeding race record and breeding record, in my opinion could negate selection from a bad throat. 
The bumpy egg, kind of reminds me of the cone head that my kids had at birth. A question arises, are all first time mother's eggs bumpy? If so some say the first bird off a hen is always the best.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't know if it matters but all 4 of my first time mother had bumpy first eggs and all hatched just fine. We shall see how they fly.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

vandergill said:


> I recently purchased a DVD on the egg, according to the "expert" presenting this DVD, you can tell alot from just looking at the egg, texture, symetry, calcium deposits, thin walls...... and much more.
> 
> His advice is that if you have calcium deposits..... get rid of it, he also goes on to show you the difference in the birds, the asymetry for example he shows where the one wing has developed nicely, however on opening the other with you can immediately see that it is underdeveloped with fluting of the flights. He shows this on about 4 different birds..........maybe there is something to it


Curious to know who the author is and what is his racing record. Funny, when I read interviews with todays greats, not a one believes in the eye theory, not one talks about eggs, I have never read one-pin tail on their website, only balance and good feather and good race record. They all have one thing in common, good birds with winning records. Makes me wonder why we waste time trying to find a mediocre bird with a good eye that lays the perfect eggs. Wonder if all they theory chasers think their is another way to win then to have the best bird.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I will test the theory this year. My son of my import was hatched from the funniest looking egg I have every seen. He is breeding this year with a proven hen. If the babies are just as good the egg theory is muck, if they are bad then might be something here. I will raise 4 babies and race them all. Keep you posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Calcium deposits on eggs are common in birds and not a big deal. Nothing wrong with the egg or the baby. At least the hen had enough calcium to make those extra deposits.




Have to agree with Becky. Rod, you are mistaken here.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Have to agree with Becky. Rod, you are mistaken here.


I would not go as far to say someone is wrong until we have enough data to test all theories. So far all data is Subjective and all conclusions based on our own views and decisions. A theory is still a theory until proven wrong or right, not because of what we think about the theory. My thoughts are some of the theories may have merit about the health of the bird either laying the egg, having the throat et. I think we can conclude that healthy birds breed lesser birds. So even know I do not think a bumpy egg should be culled, I do believe it might have merit. Or maybe all first year hens have bumpy eggs the first time. This is something I am going to test.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

I have been racing pigeon for the past 23 years and every time I get a rough egg or an egg that is not really shiny 100% It turns out to be a weak pigeon when hatch and usually lost in training or in race. now since I don't want to waste my time and I want to improve my racing, whenever I see a rough or not shiny egg in the nest I take it out off the nest no matter who their parents are.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Once again I have to ask, how do you guys mark the babies as soon as they hatch, so you know that bird came from that egg? 
Zip ties can get tight very quickly, and I definitely wouldn't want to put nail polish or marker on the baby.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Curious to know who the author is and what is his racing record. Funny, when I read interviews with todays greats, not a one believes in the eye theory, not one talks about eggs, I have never read one-pin tail on their website, only balance and good feather and good race record. They all have one thing in common, good birds with winning records. Makes me wonder why we waste time trying to find a mediocre bird with a good eye that lays the perfect eggs. Wonder if all they theory chasers think their is another way to win then to have the best bird.


Here is a what Ad Schaerlaeckens said about this kinds of eggs. you can also check it on the article of he's website titled "Problems in life and pigeon sport"

SELECTING BABIES

Here we should distinguish birds before and after the racing season.

1. Before racing

Before racing the main criteria should be health. One cannot start selecting early enough. Actually it should start when babies are still in the eggs. When the scales are not glossy but crusty one can throw them away. No vital healthy pigeons will hatch.

One should have no pity with little babies in the nest either.

If one does not grow up as well as the nest mate, get rid of it. It will be no good.

When you want to band 8 day old babies and the legs are too thin, do not put them a band on but get rid of such ones as well.

When they are still begging for food when 6 weeks old, same story, move !

They should be on their own then. .

When the birds get older and say, for argument’s sake, 2 out of 30 are in poor health it is a big mistake to medicate 30 birds in order to cure 2.

When 28 stay healthy with the same care and in the same loft there is no excuse for 2 to fall ill. Get rid of them.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Once again I have to ask, how do you guys mark the babies as soon as they hatch, so you know that bird came from that egg?
> Zip ties can get tight very quickly, and I definitely wouldn't want to put nail polish or marker on the baby.


MaryOfExeter I have been using nail polish on the toes for newly hatch babies if I want to identify them before they are ready to be banded.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I know whenever I paint my nails, it's pretty strong smelling. Could the fumes possibly hurt the birds?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bluecheckard said:


> Here is a what Ad Schaerlaeckens said about this kinds of eggs. you can also check it on the article of he's website titled "Problems in life and pigeon sport"
> 
> SELECTING BABIES
> 
> ...



That's his opinion and just because he has such an opinion doesn't mean he's correct.
I would like to think that the good members here can see through that bunch of bunk in a heart beat.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

He has some wonderful birds, and is very opinionated. I would listen to a lot he has to say. BUT when it comes to culling birds, I prefer to give everyone a chance and find new homes for those who don't fit the bill. You can get rid of them for every reason in the book - the eyes are no good, the line or curtain in the throat is no good, the tail is too bushy, the keel too deep or shallow, too big, too small, but in the end, the only thing that really matters is the race results.

Calcium deposits/rough eggshells can be found in both healthy and unhealthy birds. Stress and medications (like sulfa drugs, for example) can cause poor shell quality. And like mentioned before, young hens can have some odd eggs at first - tiny, weird shaped, wrinkled, rough, or softshelled, but will correct itself as her body adjusts to laying. It can also be hereditary. I know when grading chicken eggs, it doesn't effect the interior quality of the egg. Rough shells are more prone to cracking/breaking. That's the only downside I have been able to find.
I could see them getting small cracks that you don't notice, and making it easier for bacteria to seep in, which of course will harm that baby. Make sure your birds have grit 24/7, so they don't lack calcium and then overdo it and end up with more than they need. Too much or too little calcium can both have negative effects on the shell.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I gave up. Just make your own observations and conclusions. There are probably lots of things to observe in pigeons. I probably spends too much time observing my birds, studying them and some testing them against theories. I even noticed that one bird preferred a brown colored nest box. Was that even a fetish? LOL! Their intelligence differs,too, and some are good in numbers(mathematics?). Some even have poor eyesights and some can see further. Some can see better in the dark. Some bird don't even need to drink too much water. Some don't eat much. Some don't get fat very easily. Some get too fat very fast. Some can get in form easily. Some don't. Too many to see....


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

RodSD said:


> I gave up. Just make your own observations and conclusions. There are probably lots of things to observe in pigeons. I probably spends too much time observing my birds, studying them and some testing them against theories. *I even noticed that one bird preferred a brown colored nest box. Was that even a fetish? LOL!* Their intelligence differs,too, and some are good in numbers(mathematics?). Some even have poor eyesights and some can see further. Some can see better in the dark. Some bird don't even need to drink too much water. Some don't eat much. Some don't get fat very easily. Some get too fat very fast. Some can get in form easily. Some don't. Too many to see....


LOL. Maybe she just liked the natural, rustic feel


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Becky,
I felt the same. LOL! She wont take any other nest boxes, but I noticed she goes to my neighbor's brown cardboard boxes so it hit me. Maybe she prefers a brown colored nest box. Well I painted one nest box brown and she couldn't wait to get in even before I installed it. That was weird. She was claiming the box outside the loft when I was building it and took it right away when I put it inside the loft. Her partner had no choice, but to use the brown box. I offered her 3 nest boxes--one unpainted, one green and one purplish-brown and she won't take any of those. Her partner cock was so confused about her choosiness.


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## AlaskaFlyer (Feb 4, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> He has some wonderful birds, and is very opinionated. I would listen to a lot he has to say. BUT when it comes to culling birds, I prefer to give everyone a chance and find new homes for those who don't fit the bill. You can get rid of them for every reason in the book - the eyes are no good, the line or curtain in the throat is no good, the tail is too bushy, the keel too deep or shallow, too big, too small, but in the end, the only thing that really matters is the race results.
> 
> Calcium deposits/rough eggshells can be found in both healthy and unhealthy birds. Stress and medications (like sulfa drugs, for example) can cause poor shell quality. And like mentioned before, young hens can have some odd eggs at first - tiny, weird shaped, wrinkled, rough, or softshelled, but will correct itself as her body adjusts to laying. It can also be hereditary. I know when grading chicken eggs, it doesn't effect the interior quality of the egg. Rough shells are more prone to cracking/breaking. That's the only downside I have been able to find.
> I could see them getting small cracks that you don't notice, and making it easier for bacteria to seep in, which of course will harm that baby. Make sure your birds have grit 24/7, so they don't lack calcium and then overdo it and end up with more than they need. Too much or too little calcium can both have negative effects on the shell.




not to single this post out... but it referes to culling and i guess i should find out real fast before i invest to much time into this forum...

Here in AK.. things opperate some differently.. 

We hunt, fish, and live a perdomonant subsistence life sytle.. 

that said.. 

Culls regards of species, usually end up under orange sauce or in front of a gun dog at $5 a peice.. 

i guess i need to know, if this forum will allow bashing of natural culling? many folks i know are farmers, and killing an animal is a way of " thats just how it is"

i fully understand that Many many people of Urban America do not fully understand/ and / Accept where food comes from or what happens to the animals on the farm... 

Birds are a hobby to me.. i love them.. but the emotional attachment only goes so far. much as a dog musher here in AK... to many dogs.. the get culled, poultry and beef and pork all the same... 

NOW, i dont mind giving good birds a home.. but poor ones? lame ones? sickly ones?... not happening. 

Please i dont mean to be harsh. 

I just need to get a feel for this commuinty,,if the way we live will get me bashed the i guess I need to, look elswhere for advice thanks


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

AlaskaFlyer,

Lethal culling is not allowed here so it is not discussed. Dog trainers are shunned, too. Basically the birds here are given a chance irrespective whether they are "rejects" or "culls." My culls are used as pumpers or foster parents.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

AlaskaFlyer said:


> not to single this post out... but it referes to culling and i guess i should find out real fast before i invest to much time into this forum...
> 
> Here in AK.. things opperate some differently..
> 
> ...


Sadly, you will probably get bashed. I personally 100% agree with everything you've posted. I love my birds but they will never EVER, have the same value as a human. Reminds me of the remarks a certain ex-Governor of Alaska received after she hunted on her TV show. I believe the viewer wrote her and said something to the effect of why don't you go to the store and buy your meat rather than hunt for it. Makes you shake your head and then want to slap that person silly.

Ad Schaerlaeckens is pretty right on IMO. I think if most people spent more time/resources on fewer birds, their chances of success would be much higher.

In regards to marking babies I use any indelible ink with a big stripe across the back.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If a bird is sick, I medicate it. Even injured or lesser quality birds can still make great pets. I have a flightless racer who was hit by a car, and has some neuro damage. He's a little loopy sometimes but he's really fun  A big sweetheart. 
I agree that sometimes lethal culling is the only way to go. If there is nothing to be done and the bird is suffering. And about the farmers, I know of that too. Too many roosters? Bad attitudes? They end up in the freezer. But it's against the forum rules to talk about lethal culling. So I'll stop there before I get whacked with something  We won't hate you or anything, just try to keep it to yourself. A lot of people do it, there's nothing we can do about that (we just hope they have a good reason for it). But it shouldn't keep you from coming to share all your other knowledge with us


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

For the people who do breed, it makes sense to toss any unhealthy egg/s.. why chance it... healthy eggs are taken and replaced with fake ones all the time... I say if one wants to toss the ruff, weird, small, unusual egg they may get every now and then...what does it matter... opinions or not...


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

Charis said:


> That's his opinion and just because he has such an opinion doesn't mean he's correct.
> I would like to think that the good members here can see through that bunch of bunk in a heart beat.


This is not only opinion it's the reality. I myself have experience this and in the past I keep on giving those eggs a chance to hatch. some of them will hatch but all I see after that is the birds that hatch 100% suffer from defects and just get lost or die. now why will I wait for that to happen again and again if I can avoid it.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Still not convinced. If you select for birds that lay good eggs then that is what you should get in their offspring, birds that lay good eggs. You just selected out all the bad egg birds. Now you have good egg layers, with one pin tails, nice eye sign, etc, etc, etc. This year I am going to do a study. I am going to rate the eggs from each pair and see if it correlates with what the pair has done and what the babies do. My birds should be laying any day. I will have to come up with a subjective criteria. Say a scale of 1 to 10. Let you know what I find. Maybe bad throated or bad eyed birds lay bad eggs. Too bad the egg comes first, otherwise we would be able to see what the champions eggs looked like.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

If the bird is a champion then I don't care if the egg is square! I'll let that sucker hatch! It's playing the game of probability that's all. With my family of birds, the defective eggs haven't been very successful. 

Becky - The defective eggs were hatched under fosters. That's how I knew what was what. I don't know how everyone else differentiated theirs.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Should start a post for this subject alone, but it fits into this post as well. This is the science teacher coming out in me. 
Quantitative vs Qualitative Data, I will try to group some of these for you.
Quantitative (Things we can objectively measure)
Speed YPM
Body Mass
Wing Length
Flight width
% in feed
Heirarchy who rules the roost


Qualitative (Measured using our senses, ie sight, touch, smell, taste)
Eye Sign
Eggs
feather feel
look

The debate goes on on which type of Data we should use for selection. The feel good look good data or the objective measured data. If we race our goal is very clear. If the bird is the fastest the day of the race, yet we still use other criteria to select our birds. Its kind of like the car I talked about earlier. It does not look fast, it looks like crud, but it wins why, because it is the fastest on the day. Sometimes maybe we should look under the hood. What about measuring a birds body mass ratios on the day of the race? What about flight length to width ratio? Protein/carb/fat ratios in feed? Training distances, total miles on wing, time on wing etc. 
Seems like we spend a bunch of time saying how good of racing eye the bird has, its pretty colors, the egg it came out of. We seem to get off track on our evaluations. More of what the fancier thinks instead of what the bird actually does.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Coated Shells: Additional calcium may be deposited onto some eggs causing calcium splashing or a pink coloured egg. Typically these faults are caused by the egg remaining in the shell gland for an extended period. Often young flocks just coming into production are very susceptible to this defect. Any stresses or disturbances at the time when the egg is due to be laid will encourage the bird to retain the egg.
This backs up the new hen theory of why the egg is bumpy. Does it make the baby lesser? who knows. This is the weakest of what I read in giving reason to cull the egg. Who knows it may happen in every new hen. I have a few this year, I will look at their first egg.


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