# Pouter squabs dying at age of 5-6weeks



## esam (Jun 12, 2005)

Hi all,

I have a pair of Pouters, which are beautiful, healthy and very productive; however, I have noticed the following sad thing about their off-spring (squabs):

The parents look healthy and never show any signs of any disease or ailment; the hen lays eggs and they always hatch into what look very cute, healthy and very active chicks (squabs), the chicks remain so until they reach the age of 5 to 6 weeks, then they start to fall ill -they become ruffled, lose interest in food and then die suddenly.

I took one of the squabs from one clutch to the vet when I noticed its sickness, the vet showed me that it had developed Canker and gave it a tablet immediately and another tablet to be given to the bird in two days; however, the squeaker refused to eat any food and died in 24 hours.

My question to any of you who have the expertise; and note that the parents have no signs whatsoever in overall health or in the beak, do you think the parents are carriers of the canker disease and they pass it to all their off-spring through feeding?

My second question: If the above is the case, is there any way to treat the parents from this disease in order to enjoy their squabs?

Picture of parents: http://www.geocities.com/esam_sadeq/pouters1.jpg

Picture of male with squab before squab died: http://www.geocities.com/esam_sadeq/48.jpg

So far, two pairs of squabs have perished at the age of 5 to 6 weeks; I have taken the latest clutch of the pair's eggs and palced it under another pair, the eggs have hatched and the babies are 8 days old now. I am keeping my fingers crossed to see if the chicks will pass the 5 to 6 weeks mark or not?

BTW: the foster parents are a Cauchois male and a Bokhari Trumpeter hen (here is a picture of the foster mum: http://www.geocities.com/esam_sadeq/Bokhfem.jpg.

Some of my other pigeon photos:

1. Pair of muffed Arabian Trumpeters: http://www.geocities.com/esam_sadeq/muffed4.jpg

2. Crested Arabian Trumpeter cock: http://www.geocities.com/esam_sadeq/crestarb.jpg

I hope some of you will be able to offer some advice on the topic of squab deaths.

Thanks all.
Esam


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Eslam,


Adult or parent Pigeons may be asymptomatic carriers of the Trichomoniasis, Protozoan very commonly aflicting Pigeons and Doves, which can manifest as Canker.

Likely, they all could be put on Rhonidazole, which is easy on Babys, by having it in their Water when they are raising youngsters, but maybe do not start application untill four weeks or so...or untill you have some reason to suppose some hint of symptoms have appeared.

Or, you could try treating the parents after the Eggs are layed and before they hatch.

I had something like this happen a long time ago, and I lost six Squabs, all similarly aged, and who were the offspring of recovered injured Ferals...I did not know about the illness yet, and it was a heartbreaker.

Anyway, since these Squabs are being raised by their parents, and not by hand, their Water of course and their food comes from the parents, so...

One could treat tha parents while the Eggs are being incubated, and, then, one could either treat all of them at once via the meds being put into their Water, or, just treat the Squabs at some point for good measure if any suspicion of initial symptoms are found.

What did the Squabs poops look like? Was there any chaulky-yellow going on?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Esam,

I'm sorry for the loss of your beautiful little ones. You certainly do have some gorgeous birds.

It may be that the youngster was unable to eat because of the canker growths. Quite often the growths completely block the throat.

You might want to consider treating all your pigeons for canker.

Terry


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## esam (Jun 12, 2005)

*Thanks, Terry! But any ideas on the main topic?*

Thanks for the compliment on the birds, however, do you think the parent Pouters carry the Canker disease and pass it on to their off-springs? All other pigeons and their squabs are fine; only the pouters have this sad phenomna with their young.

If the parents are carriers of the disease but not showing it, how do you treat them? The vet did give them a tablet each after the last incident but I don't know whether a tablet is a cure for something that they carry and seem to pass on to their little ones?

Thanks.
Esam


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Your birds maybe carriers, but they are not affected by its symptoms.The best way to deal with this is use a preventive treatment before breeding season on all your birds.

Globals makes a great one called "Multi-Mix". It is safe, easy to use, and designed just for pigeons. I use it annualy when I breed mine.

Treesa


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## TaylorGS (Feb 27, 2005)

That's true. I heard that someone had a pigeon that carried a disease that it didn't even have any symptoms!
Taylor


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi esam,


I will try again, I was not awake quite yet earlier!

Your Adult Birds may be "carriers" without showing symptoms.

Asymptomatic carriers MAY develop symptoms if stressed...or may have the infection advance while remaining asymptomatic from the stress of raising Babys.

Asymptomatic carrier parents MAY transmit the illness to the Babys.

The agent, if it is 'Canker', is a Protozoan.

Tricomoniasis is also the name of this complaint, after the name of the Protozoan, the Tricomona.

This may or may not show yellow 'small curd cottage cheese' looking things in their throats, which 'Canker' tends to be noticable as showing.

The Protozoan is a free roving entity in moist Soils and often in puddles from which Birds may drink.

This is common in Columbiformes and more common in some regions than others.

One might not necessarily cure a carrier completely.

Hence, I would suppose, that if you consider to treat your adult imminent-parent Birds while they incubate their Eggs, your chances of their carrier status being in remission when they are raising the Babys will be at it's optimum.

If you still see suggestions of symptoms in several-week-old Squabs, then treat the Squabs.

"What did their poops look like?" - is a real, pragmatic question germain to your interest and edification, and valuable to the attention you will need to be paying if you wish to deal with this issue. Did you notice anything on that score? 

In my experience one tends to see 'yellow' and usually of a flat chalky aspect, in the young Bird's poos, even when they still appear otherwise vigorous and bright. I have had many orphan Sqabs of three four or five weeks of age, who showed this, and if not treated soon became visibly ill. When treated the poos changed to normal, and they never showed any sign of illness in any way...so...

"Ronoidazole" if memory serve, is kindest to youngsters...while there are of course quite a few other Sulfas and Drugs used to treat occasions of Trichomoniasis.


Sorry my earlier post was kinda muddled...!

Good luck pardner...!


Phil
las vegas


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Breeding Problem*

Do you have other birds of the same kind that you could out cross? They might be to closely related. I had a pair of West of England and thier babies made it to 3 weeks and then died. I broke them up and remated the to other birds not from the same breeder.


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## esam (Jun 12, 2005)

*Thank you all*

Thank you all for the help, the answers to Phil's & upcd's posts are as follows:

1. The birds were bought from a local bird shop and I guess they are siblings, i.e. a pair produced in one clutch from same parents;

2. The babies' poo tends to look different at different stages of the 5 to 6 weeks of their short lives; at the beginning I notice it is sort of little strings greenish in colour, at times they are watery and as they grow up to 4 weeks it is normal-like droppings;

3. All the squeakers show some signs of trying to vomit at around 5 weeks old but usually nothing comes out of their beaks; there was one, though, that I found out to have vomitted something cause its beak and head showed a little mess of sort;

4. Soon after the vomitting episod, the squeakers will go into the all-ruffled appearance and frightened behaviour withdrawing to their nest bowls if approached; even after taking them to the vet and having found them with only a few canker spots on the tongues and given the medication tablets, they just will not recover and will die within a day or 5 days at the most; the latter case only happened with the latest one who was a beautiful rare-colour lavender chick;

5. I do not have any other pouters, even If I had, I would not want to risk crossing the current carriers with any other birds; this would be like risking the other birds catching/getting infected as well;

6. Do you think I should have the pair destroyed? Or Is there any real effective treatment for the poor pair?

7. I had their latest egg clutch removed at two days of incubation and placed under another pair, which are doing a super job now with the hatched chicks at 9 days old; I'll wait and see if the new hatchlings would survive this time with the foster parents or not; if they develop the same symptoms and die on me, this means the pouters are passing the illness to the eggs, not just to the chicks by feeding; and this would mean that they would have to go (be culled) and sadly be destroyed.

Any ideas?!

Thank ya all.
Esam


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Esam,

Before resorting to something drastic, I would treat for canker, cocci, and paratyhoid. All three things are relatively easily cured with either a combination product such as the Multi-Mix Treesa mentioned or by giving separate drugs for each potential problem .. spartrix or metronidazole for canker .. albon for cocci, and baytril for paratyphoid. You might also want to have a fecal done to check for worms and treat accordingly.

Terry


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Treatment*

Under go treatment first. Get them cured. Then look for another Male and female and treat too. Then out cross or just keep as pets. Inbreeding brings out the best and the wrost of any breed.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hi Esam,

Feralpigeon brought something to our attention a few days ago--it's about resistant strains of trichomonas out there. Read this thread if you haven't already:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10696

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Esam, 

This might not be 'Canker' then...or, it does not sound like it to me anyway from your description...

Hopefull others here might have some idea of what is might be.

So sorry, I know this is a heart wrender...

Phil
las vegas


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## esam (Jun 12, 2005)

Hi, all!

Thank you so much for your caring advice and tips.

Phil,

I think the problem is "Canker", at least this is what is killing the squabs and the proof is evident from the tongues and throats of the chicks.

The last chick to die was all fine until 6 weeks of age, then it started getting all ruffled up and lazy, not wanting to feed and just keeping like that all of the time. I checked it immediately but found no signs in the throat or on the tongue, however, in two days time it started to show the signs of spots on the tongue, the vet gave it the canker tablets but it just kept developing the spots and even a cheesy like stuff which killed it after 7 days.

I will try to take your advices, in the meantime I have to either:

(1) stop the pouters from doing their stuff (already into the rituals since the cock is a vary randy bugger, he is even after the hen when she is with a clutch of eggs!); OR

(2) take whatever eggs they lay and put them under another pair.

Solution (1) is easy to do, but solution no (2) is difficult since I only keep 3 pairs and the other two -Arabian Trumpeters have squabs of 1 week old while the Bokhari / Cauchois pair are fostering the pouters' chicks from last clutch that I put under them.

I will try to find the medications described by all of you nice folks, although it might prove to be a chore here in the United Arab Emirates; I usually get my stuff from Jedd's over the net but it will take a long time plus the shipping rates even by USPS Air Parcel is a killer.

I will keep you informed on things and will pop in now and then to ask your advice on things.

All the best.
Esam


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Esam,

you can always replace the eggs they lay with wooden or plastic eggs until you have the pair treated. If you don't have any dummy eggs, you can remove the eggs immediatelty after they are laid and boil them and put them back in the nest.
Also, if you order the meds, I would suggest to get a couple of different canker meds, like Flagyl and ronidazole, it could be you have a resistant to some meds canker, so it is good to have different medications for just in case.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

In addition to other suggestions, Travipharma puts out a product called 5% Kuur+ which treats both canker and cocci. It is 50mgs. Secnidazole with Vitamin B Complex. It mixes well with water and does not settle at all at bottom of water container, unlike grinding up pills and adding to water. 

fp


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