# WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT -BLOODLINES or RACE RECORD



## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

IF-12-PA-7410 BB HEN HUYSKENS-VAN RIEL
RACE RECORD :
REGISTERED CHAMPION
1st OVERHALL ACE PIGEON 2014 OBS. (1001-2000 BIRDS )
1st SPRINT ACE PIGEON 2014 OBS. (2001BIRDS and MORE )
2nd LONG DISTANCE ACE 2014 OBS. (1001-2000 BIRDS )
2nd " IF-2014 HALL of FAME ( 151-300 LOFTS )
3rd CHAMPION BIRD "CJC COMBINE 2014 OBS."

COMBINE RESULTS :
2nd / 133 lofts / 1707 birds / 480 miles
5th / 160 lofts / 2324 birds / 150 miles
9th / 130 lofts / 1819 birds / 480 miles
17th / 174 lofts / 2702 birds / 106 miles
34th / 182 lofts / 2735 birds / 201 miles
41st / 179 lofts / 2558 birds / 150 miles
41st / 148 lofts / 2017 birds / 402 miles
114th / 201 lofts / 2807 birds / 201 miles

What is more important in trying to sell this bird , that it is HVR BLOODLINES or it's race record.
Not everybody sells birds by name - they have a race record to back it up !


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Race Record first. Then pedigree IMO. Then price haha


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I guess it depends on the buyer. There are so many different types of fanciers out there that it really depends on the individual. 

If I was trying to buy a hen to use for my own breeding and had to pick from the two below and this is the only information I had to go on, I would pick the race record. 

Bird #1
unknown hen 
RACE RECORD :
REGISTERED CHAMPION
1st OVERHALL ACE PIGEON 2014 OBS. (1001-2000 BIRDS )
1st SPRINT ACE PIGEON 2014 OBS. (2001BIRDS and MORE )
2nd LONG DISTANCE ACE 2014 OBS. (1001-2000 BIRDS )
2nd " IF-2014 HALL of FAME ( 151-300 LOFTS )
3rd CHAMPION BIRD "CJC COMBINE 2014 OBS."

COMBINE RESULTS :
2nd / 133 lofts / 1707 birds / 480 miles
5th / 160 lofts / 2324 birds / 150 miles
9th / 130 lofts / 1819 birds / 480 miles
17th / 174 lofts / 2702 birds / 106 miles
34th / 182 lofts / 2735 birds / 201 miles
41st / 179 lofts / 2558 birds / 150 miles
41st / 148 lofts / 2017 birds / 402 miles
114th / 201 lofts / 2807 birds / 201 miles

BIRD #2
Direct import from Gaby Vandenabeele, grandson of "Wittenbuik" great grandson of "The Kleinen". 

There are some that would go with #2. I guess I could go with the blood and then sell it and buy two or three of the pigeons with the race record. 

Either way great bird! Is it a bird you raced? I would be interested in looking at the pedigree. Not because I am purchasing birds I am just curious how far back it goes. How many generations back to birds in the sale off?


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

One thing to consider, is that just because it has a great race record, doesn't necessarily make it a good breeder. Not putting the aformentioned bird down specifically, but rather just stating that. That thought sometimes goes through my head when I see some folks race results.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

bob prisco said:


> IF-12-PA-7410 BB HEN HUYSKENS-VAN RIEL
> RACE RECORD :
> REGISTERED CHAMPION
> 1st OVERHALL ACE PIGEON 2014 OBS. (1001-2000 BIRDS )
> ...


Neither!

It is the bird! You can and I have bred duds from both your critera. It is the bird it's self. If you want to sell pigeons to new bes, take your pick. You can always blame the dud on conditions, management, or any thing else. BUT the bottom line is it is the bird. You can idenify it as it is not for sale.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I want to see the ped I don't care if it mentions the strain I just want to know if the parents and grand parents were raced and that they bred winners, a race record for the bird helps a lot.
Dave


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

rpalmer said:


> *Neither!
> 
> It is the bird! * You can and I have bred duds from both your critera. It is the bird it's self. If you want to sell pigeons to new bes, take your pick. You can always blame the dud on conditions, management, or any thing else. BUT the bottom line is it is the bird. You can idenify it as it is not for sale.


The right answer. I call it type and conformation. I choose my birds by my hands and eyes but I will be choosing this bird from a winning loft. Once I find what I am looking for I want to know what his/her parents and siblings have done in the races and what percentage of young have been lost in training and racing. Buying almost any bird online/sight unseen is a crap shoot at best. Then if you don't know anything about type and conformation what are you going to breed it with. Breeding type to type produces type. 

A lot of great racers never make good breeders but some of their siblings do. Peds mean nothing unless you know and trust the person you are getting the bird from. Even then he is going by the peds he got with the birds from ???

In the late 60s and early 70 field trailers bred the English Pointer into the German Shorthaired pointer to produce a GSP that could compete with the English Pointer in the Field Trials. You can still see it in the dogs today but the pedigrees always showed a GSP as the stud of the litter.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> The right answer. *I call it type and conformation.* I choose my birds by my hands and eyes but I will be choosing this bird from a winning loft. Once I find what I am looking for I want to know what his/her parents and siblings have done in the races and what percentage of young have been lost in training and racing. *Buying almost any bird online/sight unseen is a crap shoot at best*. Then if you don't know anything about type and conformation what are you going to breed it with. Breeding type to type produces type.
> 
> A lot of great racers never make good breeders but some of their siblings do. Peds mean nothing unless you know and trust the person you are getting the bird from. *Even then he is going by the peds he got with the birds from ???*


I pretty much disagree with most everything you are saying.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Kastle Loft said:


> I pretty much disagree with most everything you are saying.


It would take a full page and a video to really show what I meant by that post so I will leave it at we disagree.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> I want to see the ped I don't care if it mentions the strain I just want to know if the parents and grand parents were raced and that they bred winners, a race record for the bird helps a lot.
> Dave


Good answer. I like it


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

I'll take the bird with a race record with multiple good performances first, and when it comes to pedigree I fully agree with crazy pete its best when it shows that the parents had a good race record and multiple good results too, rather than if it says grand BRED FOR STOCK or TRAINED TO 100 MILES then stocked or even won its first short race then stocked, or its grand father was so and so.
winners come in different shapes and sizes eye colors and tail width, wing cast and so on.confirmation and type do not tell you whats inside the head and heart of the bird. If you are breeding show birds, then body type and confirmation is the criteria that you should focus on, but when breeding for performance you'll have better odds breeding from good performers.


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## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

to me the price is the most important thing..... race records and strains dont guarantee anything unless u can guarantee to give me supers then yes i will pay the price u want..$100,000.00 if thats ur asking price.... otherwise if u cant guarantee that it will breed me supers then ill only give u 100 bucks and if i really want it 200 the most... sounds fair to me.. everythings got guarantee nowdays when u have a quality product .. even stuff made in china is guarantee.. i have wisen up buying pigeons over the years and i wont let peddlers peddle me anymore...

P.S. if ur peds has super and best written all over and u cant guarantee that it will give me super then it must not be as super as the words that u wrote on ...lol... dont use that its how the handler and the system that u use is what makes the bird win..thast juss an excuse for a peddler...... like every champion in the past says there are no secrets .. u juss need very good birds...quote from jannsens brother .... and other past champions..... this is not going towards anyone ...im just sick of over priced pigeons and over rated birds...and peddlers ........before anyone attacks me on system yes system helps but when u have good birds even without a very good system ull still do good but with a good sytem and good bird u will be unstoppable...


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Kalscoop said:


> I'll take the bird with a race record with multiple good performances first, and when it comes to pedigree I fully agree with crazy pete its best when it shows that the parents had a good race record and multiple good results too, rather than if it says grand BRED FOR STOCK or TRAINED TO 100 MILES then stocked or even won its first short race then stocked, or its grand father was so and so.
> *winners come in different shapes and sizes eye colors and tail width, wing cast and so on.confirmation and type do not tell you whats inside the head and heart of the bird. If you are breeding show birds, then body type and confirmation is the criteria that you should focus on, but when breeding for performance you'll have better odds breeding from good performers.*


Thanks for spelling that out. I didn't have time earlier to say that but it's exactly how I feel about conformation. I will never be able to pick out a champion breeder or flyer by holding it I don't think any of us here can either. In my loft, unless a bird is obviously or extremely physically flawed or broken, they race.

I'll amend my criteria slightly from what I originally said above to say that I look at pedigree first, then performance, then price. The first two really go hand in hand, but because I'm employing a line-breeding program, I'm looking for relatives of the birds I already have.

In Flapdoodle's scenario, I would probably pick bird #2 from Gaby if those were my only choices. But in a perfect world, I'd pick bird #2 from Gaby if it had been on his race team and had a record (and I was filthy rich)  If I was looking for a cross, however, and like the traits of Prisco's family, then definitely bird #1 would be my choice.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Kalscoop said:


> I'll take the bird with a race record with multiple good performances first, and when it comes to pedigree I fully agree with crazy pete its best when it shows that the parents had a good race record and multiple good results too, rather than if it says grand BRED FOR STOCK or TRAINED TO 100 MILES then stocked or even won its first short race then stocked, or its grand father was so and so.
> *winners come in different shapes and sizes eye colors and tail width, wing cast and so on.confirmation and type do not tell you whats inside the head and heart of the bird. If you are breeding show birds, then body type and confirmation is the criteria that you should focus on, but when breeding for performance you'll have better odds breeding from good performers*.


Or parents and siblings of those good performers bred to others with the same type family of the same type and conformation. Form fallows function... As you stated winners come in all shapes and sizes. Breeding a winner of one type to a winner of a different type will not produce consistent type and conformation in their young and therefore there will not be consistent performance from their young. Now find two such birds of similar families and winning background with the same type and conformation. Remember "Form Fallows Function" By producing consistent form/type & conformation their young will consistently follow the form of the parents and in a few generations of selective breeding from performance you can have a family of pigeons of consistent form/type and conformation and performance. Now it comes down more to health and what is in their head on race day. Also look to breed from the pairs with fewer young lost through the young bird season. They can't win races if they don't make it home.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

bob prisco said:


> IF-12-PA-7410 BB HEN HUYSKENS-VAN RIEL
> RACE RECORD :
> REGISTERED CHAMPION
> 1st OVERHALL ACE PIGEON 2014 OBS. (1001-2000 BIRDS )
> ...


Both are important!

bloodlines tell you what the father, mother aunt uncles and cousins have done and at what milages. race record tells you what the bird itself can and has done. 

Idealy the bird will have both, but i personally dont care as much about bloodlines as I do the individual birds race records and how it feels in the hand. I.E. strong back and wings tight vents ect ect.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

V-John said:


> One thing to consider, is that just because it has a great race record, doesn't necessarily make it a good breeder. Not putting the aformentioned bird down specifically, but rather just stating that. That thought sometimes goes through my head when I see some folks race results.


I was thinking this too. I have found that many birds that race well will never produce another like themselves. My best bird I ever owned is one of a kind meaning that none of its siblings have ever come close to its performances and it has never produced anything worth bragging about so with that said I would choose a bird to be a breeder of breeders based on pedigree and its families performance. So many people say they can take any old bird by feel or one that has won a few races and build a team from it but I don't have that skill or luck. I am starting over with only a few birds based on their breeding history ( pedigree) and will attempt to fill my loft with clones of the original cock bird bred to a few select hens . I believe that the more unrelated cocks you use when breeding your team the more diverseity you will have making it hard to maintain a family of any quality.


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