# WW II military pigeon carrier pics



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I was reading the other thread about pigeon carriers and I thought I would show off one of my pigeon paraphernalia collector items. This was supposedly a WW II British military carrier that held two pigeons and was to be carried by one soldier into combat. It is actually a pretty neat little thing. I will try to explain the pics as I go along. Here it is bundled up and ready to be carried. It is canvas, wicker and with leather straps. It appears to have been used at some point, which makes it even more cool.

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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Here it is with the first unwrapping of the canvas. Notice the two cloth items inside the basket. I believe that you put one pigeon in each, like a little bed. They have snaps on the tops and the bird would more or less have to just lie in them while being carried around inside the carrier. I would not fit real snuggly but would keep the birds from being able to walk or flap their wings. Sounds cruel I know, but the next pic will explain.

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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is a further unwrapping. There is a pouch with snaps, that holds four metal pins (like tent pins) and a string net. There is also four wicker walls. You use the four wicker walls, the string net and the four pins to form a small tent, which is an excersize area for the two birds to get some exercize from the little beds. The military had manuals that instructed how often the birds were to be given exercize in these little exercize yards. The next pic will show it put together (on my kitchen table). Notice the leather straps that hold both ends of the wicker carrier doors closed, and notice the holding "beds", which have little built in "pillows" in the fronts.

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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

WOW! you have a real piece of history There! Dave


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

This is the exercize tent put together. In practicle use, the metal pins would be pushed into the ground like tent stakes. If anyone from Britain can verify that this is from World War II British Military, I would appreciate it.

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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Here are supposedly two WW II military leg message holders. The one on the right is supposed to be from the British Military and the one on the left is from the U.S. Military Pigeon Corps. The U.S. one is plastic and cloth with a metal snap, and labeled "PG-67". The red one is cardboard and cloth with a snap and is not labeled, but does have a small piece of cotton that would cover the leg inside the cloth. From my readings I understand that whenever a message was sent in the military during combat, two birds were released carrying the exact same message as the enemy would shoot at pigeons because they might be carrying messages, so two birds were better than one 

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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

That is amazing! I like the Homing/War part of the homers history very much! Good item to have and preserve. Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

keep it coming! I had to change item, to items in my last post. I will Shut up now, anything else? (not that what you have shown is not amazing! ) Dave


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have some personal items from Charles Heitzman that came from his estate. Are you familiar with Heitzman?


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## maine123 (Sep 21, 2007)

Very interesting!!! thanks for sharing


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Here it is with the first unwrapping of the canvas. Notice the two cloth items inside the basket. I believe that you put one pigeon in each, like a little bed. They have snaps on the tops and the bird would more or less have to just lie in them while being carried around inside the carrier. *I would not fit real snuggly but would keep the birds from being able to walk or flap their wings. Sounds cruel I know, but the next pic will explain.*
> Image Hosting


You got to remember these pigeons were being carried in combat. That carrier was being thrown around and in some cases dropped and tossed. The little bed kept the birds from being hurt. One of two things would happen, Once the birds got to a safe place and camp was set up, so was their camp; or in the heat of battle they were released with messages.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

This is great, thank you for sharing.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

conditionfreak,

I have some also, I am thinking of trying to recreate up to a point, his library/museum in a room of a museum dedicated to pigeon fanciers that had a great impact on the sport or that went into a new or remote area and started up clubs themselves. Sort of a museum dedicated to fanciers and not just the birds.

Ralph


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

cool stuff! what about the Heitzman?...something guy? tell more. where did you find the carrier? this is sooooo interesting.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Fastpitch Here--

That's some neat stuff you got there.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

where can I get me one of those carriers?
I really like it a lot


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Conditionfreak,

Thank you for showing these to us. Those are wonderful pigeon collectibles.

Margaret


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Wow. Fascinating. Great pics. Thanks for sharing!!!!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Charles Heitzman flew pigeons from Louisville, Kentucky back "in the day". He was the most famous and arguably the best American pigeon racer ever. He specialized the the lines of Sions, Stassarts and Hansennes. He crossed them mostly. Heitzman wrote several books pertaining to pigeon racing. His most famous is probably "Lofts for Racing Pigeons", but he wrote some others. Here is a pic of one I own that came from his estate. It was written by him, signed by him and was actually his one library copy in his personal library. Heitzman was famous for his pigeon library also. Below is a photograph of Heitzman with a friend known only as "Fred" (tall man on the right). I hope you can read the first pages of the book. Finally, pictured below are two pigeon statues that came from the desk in Heitzman's library.

Here is a link to the World of Wings web site. They have some of his items in their museum. http://www.pigeoncenter.org/specialcollections_page3.html

Charles Heitzman should be honored more in America for his excellent pigeon history. Winning races, breeding winners, and literary accomplishments. It seems that here in the U.S., we worship the Belgium, German, Dutch and other "overseas" pigeon breeders and racers, but Heitzman was the best we had back then, and may be the best ever in the U.S. (I don't want to start comparing other American flyers and start a debate. This is my humble opinion).


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)




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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

conditionfreak said:


> I have some personal items from Charles Heitzman that came from his estate. Are you familiar with Heitzman?


I flew Heitzman sions in the late 70's. I got them from a local flier named Stan Carpenter who has long passed away. They were a good solid distance bird. I remember seeing that Heitzman book when I was a kid. 

Randy


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

That is an awesome crate! You don't use it, do you? If that is mine I would preserve it.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

conditionfreak,

I agree completely with you, some of the best fliers in the world may be in your own backyard. The problem in America is that we are not concentrated in one area as they are in Europe so we don't get to fly against the numbers that they do unless you live in certain areas of the country! Mainly the Northeast, Florida, and some areas on the west coast. The great thing about Charles Heitzman is that he would work with and try to help anyone interested in the sport. Sounds like some of the people here! Thank you for paying respect where it is due. The funny thing is that his birds are still winning today, both long and short, kinda drives the people with the latest flavor crazy!

Ralph


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I really enjoyed learning about Charlie Heitzman, would of loved to meet him.... your real lucky to have a few of his things, would love to read that book......Very interesting stuff!!!!!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

No, I do not use the crate. It is displayed in a large glass display case in my home, with other collectibles.

I am looking to obtain a military pigeon carrier box fromt the U.S. military pigeon corps. They had two and four bird units, but they were made of entirely wood. I also tried and failed to build a mobile pigeon loft like the military used. I will google up some pics of those two items and link them here.

Here is a link to how the military decided what birds to breed from and keep for their purposes. It is an interesting read. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/homing_pigeons.htm

Here is a link to a cardboard unit the U.S. military used. http://www.flickr.com/photos/k9qfr/2431951709/

Here is a box I am looking to obtain. http://www.prices4antiques.com/mili...eon-Box-US-Army-Signal-Corps-WWI-D9940101.htm

Check out this site for the pigeon corps info and pics. Neat stuff.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...w&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=2&ct=image&cd=1

Finally, here is a link to an story about an upcoming documentary film titled "The Pigeoneers". If you read down about the part concering Nikola Tesla, you may just see where the name of this "Pigeon Talk" site came from 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1351215/plotsummary


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Charles Heitzman flew pigeons from Louisville, Kentucky back "in the day". He was the most famous and arguably the best American pigeon racer ever. He specialized the the lines of Sions, Stassarts and Hansennes. He crossed them mostly. Heitzman wrote several books pertaining to pigeon racing. His most famous is probably "Lofts for Racing Pigeons", but he wrote some others. Here is a pic of one I own that came from his estate. It was written by him, signed by him and was actually his one library copy in his personal library. Heitzman was famous for his pigeon library also. Below is a photograph of Heitzman with a friend known only as "Fred" (tall man on the right). I hope you can read the first pages of the book. Finally, pictured below are two pigeon statues that came from the desk in Heitzman's library.
> 
> Here is a link to the World of Wings web site. They have some of his items in their museum. http://www.pigeoncenter.org/specialcollections_page3.html
> 
> Charles Heitzman should be honored more in America for his excellent pigeon history. Winning races, breeding winners, and literary accomplishments. It seems that here in the U.S., we worship the Belgium, German, Dutch and other "overseas" pigeon breeders and racers, but Heitzman was the best we had back then, and may be the best ever in the U.S. (I don't want to start comparing other American flyers and start a debate. This is my humble opinion).


HEY IS THAT REALLY HIS SIGNATURE !!  Do you actually own that copy you show ?

IMO, that really is a museum piece. I remember reading about him and his articles and the like as a kid. Thanks for the link also !!

At the time, he was the most famous and well known fancier in the USA at the time. I wish I still had all my pigeon stuff from that time period, this brings back some mighty fine memories.

Thanks for the post.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes. I really own that copy of the book in the pic. I was not there when he signed it, of course. But the person handling the estate swears that it was Heitzmans' personal library copy and that the writing is Heitzmans'.

I like owning it.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Way cool! Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

pm pigeon-racer if you would like to see a lot more of the Hietzman library, ask him about the legs, they were the main show case of his colection.
Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

*conditionfreak*, Your collections are supercool!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> pm pigeon-racer if you would like to see a lot more of the Hietzman library, ask him about the legs, they were the main show case of his colection.
> Dave



I almost bought the "legs" display. It was kind of cool and kind of creepy at the same time. For those that do not know, it was a glass display case filled with many of Heitzmans' famous winning birds. Just their banded legs. Apparently Heitzman would keep the banded leg of his favorite or better pigeons, upon their deaths. He then made a display case with these legs and bands.

I would have bought it, but I just couldn't get past the creepyness of it. It WAS one of the more sought after items of his collectibles. If I had been him, I would have just made a display of the bands (which could still be done but probably won't happen). But, it is unique.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

So...what did he do, simply chop off a leg and put it in a jar ? Didn't they sort of rot after awhile ? How did he keep the leg bands from falling off ?

He had pigeons for a very long time, so I'm sure many died over the years, while in his care. I don't think I would keep a pigeon around long enough to die of old age. I guess it is sort of creepy, but less so then a collection of paws from your cats and dogs I guess. I could not see myself choping off a leg, like it was a chicken. Those few who have died in my care, have been buried with all their leg bands, even their micro-chips. They earned them, like a badge of honour. And they have been wrapped in cloth napkins, or some other suitable and respectful, burial garment. Chopping off the legs for some collection...just seems...or feels...somehow disrespectful. Like they were simply livestock. Maybe I'm just a prude. 

If he would have had them stuffed and mounted...well that would seem more respectful.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, from the pics I saw of the "legs display", they were just left with the bands on them and mounted onto a background so that the bands would not fall off. It appeared as if the legs were slowly rotting.

As I said, it was actually a gross thing to see, but also a different collectable than I have ever seen before.

Not for everyone. Hence why I did not buy it.

All of my birds that have perished (except those obtained by hawks) also receive a decent burial. No matter what animal that dies in my care may be. Toad, goldfish or whatever, receives a decent burial. I recently buried a very large goat. The ground was hard and it was a tough dig of a very large grave. But I did it, and with a shovel (I don't own a tractor yet). "Boris" deserved it.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I myself decently bury my dead pigeons like it is a member of a family--prayer and thanking it and with a pause. I can be objective in science, but not with these creatures.

Just imagine if Heitzman mummified those legs properly, then perhaps we can isolate DNA and probably can clone that bird. I don't know anyone cloning pigeons yet though.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

For clarification,

Charles Heitzman lived in a different time of less enlightment of what would be considered animal cruelty or disfugurement. He was not a "creep" with a hatchet, back then they were considered livestock and not something that you get attached to.. He buried the birds in question in a cemetary on the grounds of his estate with their own headstones and a pigeon figurine at the head of their graves. The people of his time thought that he was a little kooky for doing this. When he buried the birds that he loved so much he kept their legs and bands as he couldn't stand parting with his "friends" so completely because he knew there would never be another to take their place. Out of all the thousands of birds that he raised, sold, or raced these were his all time favorite faithful birds, the legs weren't bragging right to him. People from his time would look upon the legs as nothing more significant than a discarded clipped toenail, personally I would have kept a feather, but like I said, he was from a different time in humans evolution towards the way we treat our animals today. He loved those birds as much or more than any of us love ours, they broke his heart and I think took alot of the spirit to race pigeons that he had with them. These were the only birds that I know of that were interred in his cemetary with their own markers. They were almost his children and I don't think he ever really recovered. Sorry, there I go spouting off again!

Ralph


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Ralph,
Thank you very much for the clarification! That Heitzman was a special person indeed. He definitely had a genuine love for his birds to treat them like that.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

pigeon_racer said:


> For clarification,
> 
> Charles Heitzman lived in a different time of less enlightment of what would be considered animal cruelty or disfugurement. He was not a "creep" with a hatchet, back then they were considered livestock and not something that you get attached to.. He buried the birds in question in a cemetary on the grounds of his estate with their own headstones and a pigeon figurine at the head of their graves. The people of his time thought that he was a little kooky for doing this. When he buried the birds that he loved so much he kept their legs and bands as he couldn't stand parting with his "friends" so completely because he knew there would never be another to take their place. Out of all the thousands of birds that he raised, sold, or raced these were his all time favorite faithful birds, the legs weren't bragging right to him. People from his time would look upon the legs as nothing more significant than a discarded clipped toenail, personally I would have kept a feather, but like I said, he was from a different time in humans evolution towards the way we treat our animals today. He loved those birds as much or more than any of us love ours, they broke his heart and I think took alot of the spirit to race pigeons that he had with them. These were the only birds that I know of that were interred in his cemetary with their own markers. They were almost his children and I don't think he ever really recovered. Sorry, there I go spouting off again!
> 
> Ralph


Thank you for sharing that, it puts things more in perspective. I know as a kid, my fantasy was to someday have lofts and birds as good as his. I know I would have liked to have owned one of his famous direct "Heitzman Sions", I was for a very young kid, an "expert"........on the Sion strain, as my colony was founded on birds reportedly down from Sion stock, related in some way to Heitzman stock. My mentor called it "French Stuff", as I take it that Sion was French. So some how, I owned some piece of his birds. My foundation cock in 1967 was Mr. Red : http://smithfamilyloft.com/MrRed.html

Thanks again for sharing these details, above, as it makes be believe that he really loved and cared for his birds. People don't normally put head stones on dead and buried livestock. They do that for cherished loved ones.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft,

There were two strains of Sions that I know of imported to the U.S from France and they were from Paul Sion and Emil Fennoyer who got his birds from Paul Sion. There was a loft in Georgia, I've forgotten the name but they specialized in Fennoyer Sions. There may have been more strains of Sions imported but these are the only two I know of. 

Ralph


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Herre is a picture I have from the Heitzman estate, that shows how he displayed his "legs and bands" in display cases. The picture I have is small, so the details don't show too well.










Here is a pic of Charles Heitzman with a friend named "Fred" in front of one the Heitzman loft. The pic is simply annotated on the back "July 1983, Fred and me" in Charles handwriting.










I believe Charles Heitzman is the man on the left.


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