# PMV or Paratyphoid???



## peek (Nov 4, 2007)

Hello, We have two pigeons that we have been rehabbing. The first one was a young one (still squeaking when found) that I am 99% sure had PMV. This bird is recovering well, attempting flight, but is still not feeding itself well. The second bird, an adult, we found walking in a circle, pecking sideways at the grass on a boulevard at a mall. We caught him easily, but since capture, it has been unable to stand, leaning to the right side all the time, pushing off strongly with its left foot. We thought he had PMV too, but after approx. 3 weeks, we're starting to wonder. It is very thin, we have been hand feeding it or holding it so that it can self feed when it is up to it. It often has spells where it stargazes or turns its head to the left and it usually rests with its head to the left or upsidedown. It has had some problems with slow crop too so we have been using the ACV water. It had recovered somewhat and was resting more upright last week, even moving about the cage a little with some control, but it has since regressed and is back to leaning heavily to the right. What I am wondering is how to know if it is PMV vs. paratyphoid so that we may follow the proper course of treatment? The two pigeons were not found at the same location.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Very difficult to say. Usually, when Paratyphoid symptoms get to the severity that they mimic PMV, they're in pretty bad shape to be lasting for weeks. Do you have access to Ciprofloxacin or Enrofloxacin?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Peek,


Neurologic injury-impairment...Mites in the Ears, inner ear infection, can also make for some of these odd Body-things and stances or seeming un-cordinations...


Birds who have fallen onto pavement or other or been hit by Cars, can take many weeks, months even, to regain normal abilitys for standing and walking and head attitude.


Viruses other than PMV or PPMV can do these things too of course...


Make their food as nutritious as possible, with lots of fresh wholesome antioxidents, natural sources of Vitamines and Minerals, and that will be a good thing regardless of the actual basis of the problems.


Far as helping the PPMV wanglers or other 'challenged' Pigeons to self feed - 

Holding them on your lap, on a draped Towell, and guiding their Head and Beak for them to sort of 'gobble' or gobble-peck in a small deepish Seed Bowl, works pretty well...gently keeping their Head from any excessive 'back' motions or up motions with one hand, while steadying their Body with your other Hand, so their Beak kind of stays in the Feed...they can fill themselves up in no time..! 

So it is easy then to keep them stuffed with only a few rounds of that a day...they soon learn the drill, and really enjoy it.

Offering Water, same deal...and make it 'tepid' Water too...offer it four or five times a day so they stay well hydrated, and with all the Seeds they should put away that way, they will need plenty of Water also.


Sometimes all one need to is gently have one's palm above their Head to mae a 'ceiling' for their Head to stay down with...so they can peck without all that wangley back motion stuff going on...and, smaller to medium Seed sizes seem to make for less star gazing troubles, also, once they are managing better on their own...


Good luck..!



Phil
l v


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm no expert here but from what I've seen personally and from other things:

For Paratyhoid:
- In some cases the bird can barely stand up, and holds its head in odd positions (mainly turned upside down or backwards)
- Has diarrhea
- Has a lot of difficulty eating or drinking, simply because it can't straighten its neck and head
- "Going light"

For PMV:
- Flies in circles
- Walks in circles
- Pecks at its food but misses
- Tries to drink but misses the drinker sometimes (depending on what your drinker is like I suppose)
- Shakes or twitches its head often


It's hard to tell really...they can get so close to the same thing....
The main thing I look for is how it holds its head. Normally the ones I see with bad cases of Paratyphoid hold their head oddly for long periods of time, or all the time like its stuck. Also, my birds with Paratyphoid often refuse to fly. I had a homer once that when I tossed him a couple feet off the ground, fell like a brick.
Some fanciers can give their birds a Paratyphoid vaccine, 1/2 cc for 10 days, and it will cure it. I've done this before, and it worked...but it came back quickly after I stopped the vaccine. I would keep them seperate, treat them for paratyphoid first, then if that doesn't work, see what I could do about the PMV. Also I'd try hand feeding them and making them drink. If I had the money, I'd go ahead and take them to the vet so I'd know for sure what it was and what to do about it.

Just my opinions and stuff. I'm probably completely wrong about this...I've never actually had a bird with PMV (as far as I know...). I have seen videos of pigeons with it though, and how they acted!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

With one symptom, there is a superficial similarity between PMV and Paratyphoid. The pic of "Feefo" at the first link below shows the 'resting' position that could be either, but if a pigeon has several of the other symptoms it will be PMV.

http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/pmv.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWC58llOBzQ

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I would just add to Mary of Exeter's observations that whilst pigeons with paratyphoid are likely to have diarrhoea, pigeons with PMV will often pass a solid wormlike faeces in a puddle of water. 

The pigeon with PMV will hold his head at an odd angle, specially when sleeping but will have some control over it (though often has difficulty) and after a struggle will right itself even if only for a few seconds.

Cynthia


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## peek (Nov 4, 2007)

Thank you all for your input. The pigeon is looking a bit brighter today and is holding its head the right way around more than it was. It sometimes gets stressed when I'm holding it to eat and its head rotates to the side and back repetitively and sometimes upsidedown. It is not paralyzed, as it is able to move both feet and flap both wings, but it seems stronger with the left leg. We have been feeding good quality pigeon mix and hand rearing formula mixed with Pedialyte or ACV water when we hand feed. We picked up some Goji berries and I'm wondering how many we should be feeding per day. So far we have been giving one in the morning and one at night. Is this enough? Too much? It had messy poops when we first got it, then they firmed up and were large like small grapes, lately they are back to messy, but I'm not sure if that is due to eating more formula than seeds? We sprayed tonight with Sevin in case mites are causing problems. We were going to add garlic to their diets, we got some that is "Allicin Rich Garlic" containing 500mg of Garlic Powder..does that sound ok? Sorry, lots of different questions here!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Peek, 


Goji Berrys can be anywhere from a few to probably half their diet and it will be fine with them, good for them, and easy on their systems to digest.

I am sure they would do splendidly on a diet of nothing else if they had to..!

But it would be a little rich I think.

For an average-smaller Pigeon who is being hand fed or fed via Seed-Pops, certainly 20 Berries a day is nice.

When making powders out of Seeds and Berrys for making formula for Babys or invalids, I likely use about 1/3 by volume of the Berrys, and 2/3rd various Seeds, ground 'fine' all together, in a little electric Coffee Grinder.


For Seed-Pop situations I usually pre-soak the Berrys for a while, and cut them into halves, sometimes also rubbing them lightly into some fresh Olive Oil and various powdered suppliments the instanty before 'popping' them.


What is the 'feeding formula' you have been using, which seems to be making messy dark poops?


Phil
l v


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## peek (Nov 4, 2007)

We have been using Hagen Tropican Baby Hand Rearing formula. We also add Hagen Prime vitamin supplement to one feeding each day. It sounds like we could really up the goji berries and it is good to know about pre-soaking them, we had been feeding them dry, probably no harm done in the small amounts we have been giving, but good to know if we were to increase the amount.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

peek said:


> we got some that is "Allicin Rich Garlic" containing 500mg of Garlic Powder..does that sound ok? Sorry, lots of different questions here!



For grown up birds, and those over 2 months of age, I always recommend garlic caps, either Now brand, or Allicidin Complex, from Healthline.

Do not give to a bird with an upset stomach or one that is young, that is not fully grown. Always give probiotics as another important supportive measure.

I have used the garlic caps daily for new incoming birds that need a bit of tweeking, but the Allicidn I will use for birds with special health issues. It works well, and seems increasingly beneficial in long term use.

Be careful not to give to much in the diet other then their staple of seed and legumes as they do get the runs.


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## peek (Nov 4, 2007)

Any thoughts on vaccinating/treating the young one (that I am 99% sure had/has PMV) against Paratyphoid just in case that is what the other one has? They are not in the same cage and we are careful to wash our hands between handling the birds, but better safe than sorry?

Does the garlic that we have sound ok for the more ill of the two birds then? It is made by Jamieson. I didn't see either of the two brands mentioned in the four stores we checked. Maybe American brands? We are located in Canada.

He/she seems better again today, sitting nearly upright and almost standing now and then. Head twisting seems to have nearly stopped even when the bird is stressed by feedings etc.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

peek said:


> We have been using Hagen Tropican Baby Hand Rearing formula. We also add Hagen Prime vitamin supplement to one feeding each day. It sounds like we could really up the goji berries and it is good to know about pre-soaking them, we had been feeding them dry, probably no harm done in the small amounts we have been giving, but good to know if we were to increase the amount.



Hi peek, 


'Hagens' ( so long as it has been continuously frozen, or at least very well Refrigerated and sealed 'tight' with no Airspace in the Bag ) is an excellent one, for sure. ( Any of the powder formula products WILL go rancid once opened, and freezing or refrigerating will delay the spoiling...)


I forget, will this Bird manage to 'gobble' from a small deepish Seed Bowl if you support his Head for him and steady him?


Mine do, and they can STUFF themselves silly in no time that way...for which, 'small' Seeds are likely best...such as a Canary or Finch Mix, with maybe some White Safflower added also...

Those wo might not manage larger Seeds can 'gobble' these like a champ with some head-steadying supplied.

Steady his Body with one hend, stady his Head and Beak, with the other, so his Beak is vertical, and your hand also keeps his Head from bobbing very much as he eats...if he does not do so instantly, he should soon figure out how to 'gobble' like this, and even just opening his Beak a little will let the very small Seeds 'in', and he will feel very encouraged and really get into it, like a little 'Jack Hammer' even...

Sure beats the heck out of 'The Tube', and is faster too, far as them really getting agood sized Meal, and feeling very happy with themselves and the process too.

You could pre-soak some Gojis, cut them into thirds or fourths with Scissors, or just cut 'em up however dry they are, and add these little bits to the Seeds for his 'Seed Gobble' feedings, and he will either chow them down along with the rest, or, ignore them, in which case, you could Seed-Pop them if you wanted, and if he is easy to do that with...but cut them up 
'tiny' for this so he can get them with minimal Beak opening.



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

peek said:


> He/she seems better again today, sitting nearly upright and almost standing now and then. Head twisting seems to have nearly stopped even when the bird is stressed by feedings etc.



Oh good..!


Phil
l v


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## peek (Nov 4, 2007)

"Sherway" as we call him/her, is doing better again today. It is sort of standing now and again, it doesn't stand all the way up and it is wobbly, but it is starting to support itself again. I haven't seen any head twisting today and it ate and drank better on its own. It does still have trouble with large seeds like peas and corn, picking them up easily, but often dropping them. It also had somewhat normal looking poops today.

Our first pigeon (who doesn't yet have a name), was out practicing her flapping today and actually flew forward several feet, up until now she has been going backwards when flapping or once in a while maintaining a short hover. Now if she can just figure out how to eat on her own!


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## peek (Nov 4, 2007)

We have been syringe feeding the formula once or twice a day because it is not eating enough seeds on its own. It doesn't seem to have trouble keeping its head straight now, but when I support it so can eat seeds on its own it doesn't eat enough to make up a meal before it seems to lose interest. We were doing seed pops of pigeon mix, but after the slow crop problem we thought formula might be more digestible. Any suggestions for stimulating his self-feeding appetite? We'd love to discontinue the hand feedings if possible.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I think you're talking about the PMV bird, right? PMV birds need some support with the feeding for a few weeks generally, and as they get better, they do eat on their own just fine. Just be a little patient, and in time the pij will be eating by himself


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

peek said:


> We have been syringe feeding the formula once or twice a day because it is not eating enough seeds on its own. It doesn't seem to have trouble keeping its head straight now, but when I support it so can eat seeds on its own it doesn't eat enough to make up a meal before it seems to lose interest. We were doing seed pops of pigeon mix, but after the slow crop problem we thought formula might be more digestible. Any suggestions for stimulating his self-feeding appetite? We'd love to discontinue the hand feedings if possible.


Hi peek, 


It sounds like your Pigeon is sick...not merely having some after-effects of PMV or other, but is still sick...

Uhhhhhhhhhhh...have you had them on the ACV-Water for say ten days or so?


What meds had they recieved, and what all was going on with them before this?


Phil
l v


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