# Ugly scab



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

A wonderful lady called me last night (she found my number from the directory on this forum) to ask me if I can take in a pigeon that has been living on her balcony since past Thursday. He isn't able to fly, but eating and drinking, and just doesn't look too good.
Of course I went to pick up the poor little guy.
It is a youngster with very messy feathers, oily and tar smelling. He is quite skinny but not too much.
Her spirits are great. I keep her in a carrier for now until I figure what is wrong with her. She didn't eat or drink yet, so I've been hydrating her and she did vomit a great amount of sunflower seeds. Every time I go to pick her up she attacks my hands viciously, I got a few wing slaps too. Feisty little baby.
The physical exam revealed a big scab on the chest, my guess would be it is also pretty deep, I just hope it doesn't go all the ways into the crop. I clipped the feathers around the scab to get a better look. It looks pretty nasty.
I started her on Spartrix, cause trich came to my mind. Other than that I am giving her the goodies, echinaceea, vit.C, etc. I gave her a drop of vinegar in the water last night but for now I stopped it and the garlic too because of the vomiting. Will do one thing at the time.

S/he was named Oliver by the nice lady. Since I have already an Oliver I changed it to Olivia, she could be a girl.

Oh, I also put some neosporing around the scab, I am just concerned that it will fall out and leave me with a big hole. Any ideas on that one?

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Golly...glad to hear they are not shy!


Hmmmmm...might be good if she does vomit out all that is in her Crop if possible, so, if anything you were doing was maybe helping that, I would consider to keep doing it till the Crop is empty...

The scab certainly tells of some kind of injury to her Crop, I would consider to moisten it as you are with the Neosporin...

But I would also worry about what it may be concealing...just as you are wondering and concerned about that very thing.


What do the poops look like? and are there many or few so far of them?

Sunflower seeds in-the-hull, will of course make for 'black' looking poops...


Anyway, I would investigate their Crop with the following interests -


Could they have Candida? ( poop count of course would be an indicator if food has been moveing along or not)...is there any gas or Air filling their Crop?
Does the Crop appear more inflated than it's actual contents would justify?


Canker or Trichomoniasis either as the 'usual' or as an abcess effecting their Crop. Is there any 'yellow' showing in their poops? Or on their vent? - check their throat in a stong light too of course...


If possible, maybe just moisten the scab as you are and also see if you might remove it with some gentle progressive picking away of it from the edges, to see if there is in fact any sort of 'hole' there.

If she drinks a big drink, is there any 'seepage' there showing on the outside?


Is there any thing that feels like a lump or like an 'Acorn' or something behind or near the scab?


Is her vent clean and nice? Or has it any poops built up and stuck to her feathers there?

I have had various Pigeons over the years who had large or medium sized scabe on their Crops which when I got them were old and adhereing mostly from Feathers and not anylonger really on their skin. These all did fine with no remarkable attentions being given.

But of course as you are concerned about, such a scab, especially if not so old, could conceal something which would best be dealt with once one figures out what is going on there. 

Could be a foreign object working it's way out of their crop...could be an old or not so old cut or bad scrape or puncture or predation injury...or flying/falling injury of some kind...


Pictures?


Sounds like a nice warm bath or two are in her future...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti,

Post a picture or describe the scab in exact detail with dimensions from the top (most forward) point of the keel. And try to tell if the actual skin is split back to the edges of the scab similar to what happened to Pierpont.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The crop is empty now, so I fed her some very thin formula, thankfully nothing is leaking.
Also, the tube went in with not trouble, so there is no obstruction.
She's been eating since Thursday just the sunflower seeds, so she can eat, but won't since she's been here (last night)
Poops, a lot during the night, greenish, slimey, not smelly and no yellow. None since this morning. So, everything is out, crop completely empty and the scab doesn't seem to go too deep. I don't feel anything behind the scab.
Nothing in the throat as far as I can see.
The feathers are a mess, so sticky, yikes. Yep, some nice baths are in for her in a day or two, or three, depending how well she is.

Pictures, hopefully tonight, my friend is coming over, hopefully with her camera.

Pidgey, the scab is on the left where I would locate the top end of the crop.
It's about 1/2 inch or more in diameter, but there is about 1/4inch of very hard scab/yellow tissue sticking out. The edges are pulled inwards, , looks like the scab is coming from inside. Also the edges are a bit bloddy.
I did try to detach the hard sticking out part, but it won't move, so I'd better let it be. I might try to cut it with a scissors, flatten it out a bit, maybe I get a better picture, but I will need someone to hold her, as she is very strong and fights me.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Reti,

I would be inclined to remove the scab and see what it is concealing. It could be sealing in seeds if there is a crop injury, or infection. 


Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I agree with Cynthia--it's just better to get it done. After all the times I've taken pigeons to my vets with wounds, it always seems like they do just what you're afraid to do. Even if it's a crop wound, it can't heal until the scab is physically out of the way. My vet told me during Pierpont's deal that they don't seem to respond to sewing up crops as if there aren't any pain sensing nerves there. They will get a little upset when you sew up the skin, though, especially if you're using a bigger needle and pull the stitch a little too tight.

Anyhow, it's not as big of a thing to debride the wound as you might think--the fear of the unknown is the worst of it. It is nice to have some supplies ready just in case, though. Or take it to the vet to do the inevitable. Sometimes, the choice comes down to how much disposable cash you've got at the moment.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Cynthia and Pidgey.
I've been thinking about this scab all day and so want to remove it. I am waiting for my frined to come by so she can hold the bird. And tomorrow I am working, so just in case, I will be ready to take her to the vet at 7am.
I will apply some silvadene now, to moisten it a bit, this thing is hard as a rock.
Good news, I saw her eating, not much but she shows interest in food, thank goodness.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I agree that the scab needs to come off to see what is underneath. I think I've mentioned before that we got in a pigeon a few years back that had a whole acorn imbedded all the way into her crop. The vet said it probably saved her life because it did allow food to stay in the crop until she digested the seed. It was an ugly wound and the acorn was deteriorating, but after the vet removed it, sewed up the crop and put her on Baytril, she did just fine.

Sure hope things go well for your little one.

Maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I'm sorry to hear about this little one, but glad to hear she found her way to you.

Sending positive thoughts and hope the removal of the scab goes well.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Maggie and Treesa,
The scab removal didn't go well. It is impossible to remove, it is so embedded in the surrounding tissues, what ever this thing is, it started bleeding a bit and I was afraid to apply more force to remove it, it seemed like it would come off with the surrounding skin. My friend from the clinic (a vet tech) was here, she said to let it be for now and apply silvadene, hopefully it will moisten enough and it will be easier to remove in a day or two.
My other friend took pics, she'll send them tomorrow so I can post them when I get back from work.
I fed her more formula, no leaks, thank goodness.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What you probably need to try is the enzymatic debrider that Feralpigeon uses or something like it. Here's a link to a post she did about it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=97154&postcount=5

That sounds like your best bet, so you might talk to her about it.

Pidgey


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Reti,

I'm going to throw this info "out there", because I was just hit w/some news about one of my rescues. I will probably start my own thread w/the info and ask for advice because right now I'm in shock & am not familiar w/how bad this actually is.

Anyway, could your pigeon have pox? I only looked at one website so far, and where as my pigeon seems to have the "mucosal form", yours may have the "skin form"????? I know I've heard about pox but never had cause to pay too much attention. Many of the pigeon lovers here probably are very familiar w/this and it probably would have come to mind if it does really sound like it. But just in case....I had to mention it. You mentioned something "yellow" in or near the scab...my bird also had a yellowish gel-like substance hanging on (but inside the beak and down the throat), and scabs that if they were separated from the skin, they started to bleed.

Thanks for helping her. Good luck, I hope she gets better.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That sounds like the cheese-like buttons of trichomoniasis, more commonly called "canker" which is a flagellating protozoa. That's treated with an anti-protozoal like Metronidazole, Ronidazole or a bunch of other -zoles. Search on that because you don't want to let that one go too far.

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Reti,

I am glad to hear you are going to leave the scab alone. I wanted to post yesterday that I was personally against removing a scab like the one you described just from my personal experience with farm animals but the consensus was not in my favor so I kept my thoughts to myself. From what you have described though I think healing is well under way below the surface and at this stage it is best left alone. When it does fall off, if naturally or by soaking you will still have an opportunity to deal with any crisis that may emerge as the wound will still be quite fresh albeit with new tissue formed. I would not despair a scab at all. Bad bleeding and guilt is all you will get by trying to force it right now. Hope no one hates me for saying my piece on this one.

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cameron, don't you EVER worry about expressing your opinion. 

I was taught a certain way to care for birds and yes, maybe for me that way works, but there is always a better way. That is what I constantly strive for - to learn a better way to care for birds. So always speak up. If you are wrong, no one will feel any ill will towards you and it helps you to learn as well. The giving of information is a two way street.

You are a kind, caring person and your opinions will always be appreciated.

Maggie


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Many Thanks Maggie,

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the suggestions.
I was gone all day and just got home. Unfortunately I didn't get the pics. I guess my friend will email them after the pigeon is healed LOL.
Cameron, I agree with Maggie, always post your opinion. We discuss everything about pigeons and their care here. Even concerning the same disease, you always have to treat it individually, there can be great variations from case to case.
This scab doesn't look like it should be removed just yet. It is bleeding pretty easily.

Olivia is doing geat and she ate her seedsies today. The scab is the same, firmly embedded in the surrounding skin. I am applying silvadene, my vet prefers it over neosporin.

It doesn't look like pox, I've seen a lot of pox around here, and my vet tech agreed, looks more like canker.
Wish I had the pics, maybe tomorrow.

Pidgey, thanks will go and read the thread you posted now.

Overall she looks great, is terribly bored in the carrier in the laundry room and runs towards me to attack me every time I open the carrier. So, I guess she is feeling pretty good.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,



Hmmmmm...

I can say I have had ferals who were in here for Wing injuries, that sometimes had large scabs on the side or top areas of their Crop, where it was an old injury unrelated to the incident involveing their Wing.

And anyway, I did nothing about it and before long it was just sort of stuck there in the Feathers just a tinsey bit away from the healed area underneath and would soon dangle or come off with slight attentions, and...

They had no problem of any kind going on there in that spot so far as I could tell and some of these I had for quite a while before releasing.


Of course, we all worry in seeing a scab there, that there is something underlieing which might benifit from attentions, stitches, or debridement or as may be.

This might just be something which for all practical purposes has healed almost all the way already and has no underlieing condition which would warrant concern. 

Problem is, how to tell?



Anyway...just museing the overview...

Certainly a few warm Baths with some whatever-it-is one uses for 'Oil-Birds' or 'Tar-Birds'....would also tend to hydrate and likely soften or loosen the otherwise dried and hardened scab...and, well, I think no harm there if it does. and if it does enough of it, maybe you could then remove whet there is of it and finally see what's there, if there is a puncture or wound channel or cut or whatever.


She is pecking and eating and pooping allrighty now?

Is she preening at all?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Phil.
She is eating, droppings are still greenish and quite runny.
As for preening, I haven't seen her preen, but I was gone for over 12 hours today, so have no idea what she was doing all this time. She is a youngster too, so might not care much about preening yet.
Have to go to work today again, so it won't be until tomorrow until she gets a nice warm bath and more attention.

Reti

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I hope the pidgie feels better soon, Retie.

The scabs that I have removed were the tip of a massive plug of necrotic tissue, but I could feel the hardness under the skin so I knew that it was not healing as it should.

I thought that as this is about wounds it would be an appropriate thread on which to re-post one of my favourite links to the Avian Wound Management page, it provides a wealth of information that will also be useful for other birds:

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html


Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, thank you for that site. It's one I've not seen before and looks full of good information. I've bookmarked it to read more indepth.

Hope your gang is doing well.

Maggie


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My gang is fine thanks Maggie, but I am very worried about the wood pigeon mentioned in the fprc members post...the nearest I could come to his injuries in the avian wound management paper was the duck damaged by barbed wire and it recommends euthanasia, but then they recommend euthanasia for all unreleasable birds. 

Well, he is comfortable at least.

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

We had a nice warm Dawn bath last night. This morning the scab is gone AND there is just a tiny old puncture wound left behind. So, nothing to worry about that. What a relief.
Now I have to get her to eat again, fatten her up and get her feathers cleansed.
After the first bath they seem even worse. Not to mention that the sink was black after the bath, but she came out gray. I thought I have a black pigeon but I think she actually is a blue bar. Her feathers are still oily and stuck together. She looks so ugly, poor little thing.
I will be off the whole next week, so I will be able to give her better care and lots of TLC.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

What wonderful news! I'm glad to hear the wound is actually small. 

So, the feedings are emptying fine and the bird is pooping well? (The plumbing)

I'm going to send you a bottle of the Alli-supreme. It seems to work more efficiently then the gel caps, less allicin but more stabilized and no garlic smell! I'm sure this bird will benefit nicely from it!

Give her/him so extra TLC from me.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Treesa.
Actually I gave her another bath right now and she is sitting on my lap. But I don't think she is doing as good anymore.
The reason I gave her another bath is, I touched her feathers and they are still damp from last night and more greasy than ever. And there is more black coming out. I will dry her and put her on a heating pad.
Plus she seems skinnier than when I got her, now her keel bone is sticking out really bad. Will weight her when dry.
I gaver a probiotic and some formula and she is just sitting on my lap wrapped in a towel.
She is not fighting me anymore either.
I have another worry now.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, just keep her as warm as possible. Somehow I had missed that she had grease/oil on her. We have had many with grease on them and have found that putting chinchilla dust on them after about the 2nd bath and rubbing with a soft cloth has helped remove the grease. You can apply the chinchilla dust much the same way as sevin dust. It may have to be applied several times.

Grease can be so hard to remove and the bird takes so long to dry that you worry about them getting chilled.

I'm glad the wound looks better.

Maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks, Maggie. I had no idea about the chincilla dust. I will go out later and get some. I suppose any pet sore should have it, right?
I dried her for the longest time and she doesn't seem to get dry, not even the heating pad does seem to do the trick.
I will put her under my turtles lamp, hope that does the trick.
Now a bit drier I can see also a lot of white in her feathers, but they are still terribly sticky.
I wonder how toxic the tarr might be to her. She's also must have had it on her for a long time. 

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, any pet store should have the dust. We keep ours fresh in the freezer and one bag has lasted a long while. I have some material and notes I made on grease and tar and will look those up to see if they offer any more info. 

Don't the feathers feel awful? They can remain sticky and damp even after many washings.

Maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Don't the feathers feel awful? They can remain sticky and damp even after many washings.

Maggie[/QUOTE]


They do. She looks like a wet rat even after two baths.
Thanks a lot for the tip with the dust. As soon as I am done cleaning the birdroom I will go to the store.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, sometimes it is hard to determine what type of grease the bird got into. Most of the ones we have taken in were either covered in fryer grease or goop. In our area where it is colder than Miami p ) birds like to roost near the grease traps on tops of buildings because it is warmer and the grease either builds up on them or they actually get in the grease around the trap area. It sounds like that it is probably fryer type grease on your baby if the Dawn is cleaning her. Our water is usually as you describe and the bird winds up being a surprise after you get the junk off the feathers. You can also smell the grease as you wash them.

As to cleaning, everything I have read agrees with the Dawn baths and keeping the bird warm, if the bird has been in plain old grease. For goop, warmed Canola oil (102 - 104 degrees) can be applied lightly and rubbed in with your hands going down the feathers toward the tip. After about 5 minutes the goop will soften and can be removed. 

About the chinchilla dust for grease contamination. I forgot to mention that the grease will begin to "pill" and you can take a soft toothbrush and gently brush in a downward direction toward the wing tip. It may take several applications. I usually put the bird in my lap on a towel and they actually seem to like the brushing part.

Maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She definately loves the grooming and me preening her.
She loves the hair dyer too.

What percked her up the most, I can even see a smile on her face.
I upgraded her in the bird room. She is in a large cage away from the others and no one can get near her, but she can see all the activity going on. You can't imagine how relaxed she is now and even pecked on her seeds. She is comfy now, standing on one leg watching everything. She has some sun though the window and she enjoys it.
I know I should isolate in another room, but she had a hard time in the laundry room and started getting depressed.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Don't blame you a bit. Contentment goes a long way in their survival.

Maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I was going to mention the hair dryer, Reti, and then saw that you used it. Squeaks like the dryer, after his bath, too.

I sure hope she recovers. Any possibility that there could be an infection in that puncture? I just hope she's going to completely recover! She's sure getting wonderful care!

Will be watching for updates and sending healing thoughts!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti.


Some variation of the 'Squeaker Warm House' with the Hair Drier pointing into it, so the whole is fairly enclosed...might be a good thing for Birds who are slow to dry after their Baths...

I have thought of this for such Birds but have not had one where I felt I needed to try it yet.

Of course, one would want to ensure the enclosure can 'breathe' enough for the humidity to escape, while not getting the Bird too 'hot'...

But...should not be too hard to do...

Anyway, glad to hear of the progress!

'Pecking' even!

Yippeeee!

Likely her diet had been very poor previously also...

Or at least, those whom I call 'Dumpster Birds' around here, subsist on discarded hamburger bits and french fries and so on and this not only ultimately makes for gummy stinky feathers, little or no ability to fly, but for poor health in every way, and a bad smelling Bird who smells rancid. Seems to take about a month or so for most of it to clear up once they are on good Seeds and Greens and have had a bunch of baths...sometimes, more than a month actually before their feathers really start to look good again, maybe two months or three all tolled. But then more 'Dawn' baths would shorten that time I am sure.

I kidnap these kinds of Pigeons when I can...youngsters usually, and they always seem depressed and not happy with themselves at first when I spot them, then, before long, with the Baths and good chow, they bloom...their self esteem comes back, and they are right with things finally.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wow, a month or more? Poor thing. 
She looks better and poops better after the formula feedings. I don't want to overdo it, so since she is pecking at the seeds I'll skip lunch.
She is depressed, but percking up in the birdroom. 
I forgot to mention, last night before the Dawn bath she tried to take a bath in her water bowl, poor baby, she must feel terrible.

I don't think there is any infection where the scab was, it looks good, no swelling, redness or smell. I don't feel she needs antibiotics, but will give her if I see she deteriorates. I stick with the natural stuff for now.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that she is looking and feeling better Reti! It must feeel like heaven for her to be bathed and dried with warm air.

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Update*

The grease is almost gone, but she still smells like tar. Might be because I can't get the head clean. She is a nice gray color, wow, I though she was all black.
Anyways, she is not doing too good, she is loosing weight, even though I feed her three times a day now. She won't eat at all on her own. Her droppings are very, very watery, the color is the same as the formula. I am amazed by all the water in her cage under the perch she is on.
She saw my birds bathing earlier and that got her all excited but only briefly, then she went back to her perch.
I wonder if she has worms, hence the weight loss.
I will take a sample of her dropping to the clinic tomorrow, see what they find.
She is a worry now. She is not on any antibiotics, cause I really don't know what to start her on.

Where the scab was, looks good, I don't think there is any worry there, it is almost completely healed.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

Worms is what I thought of too, but now that you mention the poop is wattery, could it be coccidiosis?

Wouldn't hurt to give her a few heavy doses of probiotics, a little ACV, and a little (Alli-supreme) garlic....yes, I'm sending it Tuesday....sorry...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Reti,
> 
> Worms is what I thought of too, but now that you mention the poop is wattery, could it be coccidiosis?
> 
> Wouldn't hurt to give her a few heavy doses of probiotics, a little ACV, and a little (Alli-supreme) garlic....yes, I'm sending it Tuesday....sorry...



Thank you, Treesa. I am giving her garlic water with the formula (soaked clove). Could be coccidia too. She might have both.
She is getting every day probiotics, ACV in the formula, Neem oil and AHDA.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

From what you describe it does sound as though the food is just passing right through her system maybe with little or no digestion involved. It would explain the weight loss and you would probably see her dehydrating before your eyes even with feedings and care. Is that a possible outcome of worms or other parasites? Of course this same scenario happens to people too in poor areas of the world who drink untreated and contaminated water. It is certainly possible to get diahrea so bad you simply waste away. I am wondering about E-coli myself. 

Cameron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Good point, Cam, could be E.coli.
I don't know if a course of Baytri is in order here. I hate to treat without knowing what I treat.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Yea, as others above are mentioning...coccidiosis, worms...could be making mischiefs.


How much are you feeding her in terms of volume?


I also use digestive emzymes ( little box of gel caps, I empty some of one into the formula...get at any health food store) for occasions of any suspicion of the Bird's digestion being iffy...or weakened...

Is she on a Heating Pad set-up?

Little Seeds might be easier for her now...for her pecking interests...

But yes, I would think, get a fecal analysis for sure and see what that shows.

Does her Crop empty in a reasonably timely manner?

If there are not twenty or more poops-a-day, she might not have been getting enough to eat...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Phil, she is getting 35cc's three times a day. Yesterday she still showed interest in the seeds, now she doesn't. 
Can't count her poops, they are many and very runny, actually I find puddles of water and droppings.
Enzimes, good idea, but too late to get them now, will do so tomorrow.
The crop seems to be emtpying pretty quickly.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


I do not know 'e-coli' very well, but could be that too of course...or 'something' certainly is amiss anyway...

105 cc a-day ought to hold her allrighty seems to me...

Can you get a fecal exam done locally?

ACV-Water at the '1-1/2' concentration might help 'some' if you are not already doing it...

Likely she is drinking more than usual ytrying to flush her system, too...?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Phil,

Are you talking about regular human grade digestive enzymes. Would you mind elaborating just a little. I am having a bit of a problem too once in a with some runny bird poops and would like to try it out on them if it might help. 

Thanks

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron,


The Brand I have on hand, is

"Udo's Choice"....'Enzyme Blend'

"A Blend of ten Plant Enzymes"

"Amylase...Lipase...Protease...Cellulase...Glucomylase...Invertase...Malt Diatase...Pectinase...Bromilain..."

Anyhooo...I found these at the Health Food store and got them originally for orphan Squeakers and Peepers, or for occasions of Birds who had either just been on antibiotics or who seemed to have previously had bad diets...then also began useing it for adult Birds likewise...

I do not have any conclusive observations about whether it indeed helps them, but, I figured it could not hurt...and it indeed might help them too.

Runny poops that do not go away soon on their own, I would guess to warrant further investigations by way of reviewing their diet for wholesomeness, and, by obtaining a fecal analysis if possible, as they may well signal some infesting organism that might be potentialy hurting the Bird, and would be worth treating medically.

But, as a gentle easy regimen, certainly, the enzymes and pro-biotics are well worth doing...( and there are specifically 'Bird' pro-biotics one can get Mail Order too, as distinct from getting the people-kind like I have, but I do not know what differences there are there to say whether the difference would make a difference really...)

I just did a fast 'Google' on Unos Choice and founf many listings and places selling various Uno's products, which include the digestive enzymes.

The package I have is their so called 'Travel Pack' and is small, containing 21 Capsules.

I had not realized untill I just now looked, but, my people-pro-biotics are also "Udo's Choice"...and specifically, I have the one in the small ( 75 gram ) brown glass Bottle with a nice embossed metal screw on cap...this is 'powder'... called 'Infant's Blend Pro-Biotics'...

Lid is embossed with the term "floralhealth.com"...and is very cool. These guys have some class...

Must be many brands and variations out there, and truely, it all deserves a good looking into for which ones might present what advantages for what occasions...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Phil,

Lots of info there. I'll be off to get some next week I think. Later I'll have to ask more about dosing but first I'll see what I can pick and and how strong it is. Talk to you again!

Cameron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

35 cc's, 3x/day seems like a lot of food. When I've got a sick feral, I rarely go over 15 cc's per shot because it seems like they can't take too much. Is it possible that it's getting too much food and it simply can't digest it all?

Anyhow, I've seen pigeons under long term care finally come down with coccidiosis because of a growing stress issue. I've had to resolve it sometimes after two months of other care in which they showed no sign of it. And the worms issue can certainly rise up and surprise you if it got a major influx of eggs earlier on and they're just now getting to a size that's starting to block off the intestines and otherwise interfere with digestion. Of course, it's a lot more difficult to tell when you're doing formula because it goes right on through anyway.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Pidgey,

I always feed them 30-35cc's depending on age and size, of course. Olivia is over two months, but less then four-five months old. Her size is good, just her weight is the problem.
Anyways, she is alert this morning and jumping around her cage, so definately better. She doesn't seem too stressed when I pick her up to feed her.
I don't do much cuddling (even though I so want to) but if she gets well I am planing to release her one day. They do respond better when cuddled and loved, but I just can't have another unreleasable bird. 
I remembered the clinic is closed today (holiday-president's day). So the fecal has to wait till tomorrow.

Her droppings are more solid and back to gree-brown. I am more hopeful now.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


I think you would be fine to cuddle the daylights out of her if she likes it.


If I have a recovering one who likes being held or cuddled, I do plenty of it with them.

I have never seen one yet, who, once well and done with their inside free-roveing time, when released, does not become WILD again very fast indeed.

Some rare ones come back in weeks or months later to socialize a little in here, graze some seeds and so on and leave again on their own.

If one of those had been a Cuddle-Bug, then I suppose they might still be!

Food wise, tube-feed-wise, for the otherwise not-self-feeding convelescent...I think that as long as what we feed them passes in a reasonable time, and they do not spit up from their Crop being overfilled...all is well.

So, whether three times a day of a hefty meal, or six times a day of a small meal, either way is fine.

Individual Birds will vary too of course, if they are large or small regardless of appearent age.

Seed-Pops with a few dozen Corn Kernals, on top of a tube-feed, if it does not bother them too much being handled that much, is nice too of course for some slower burning food-fuel to be getting in there.

I think I have done around 30 mL four times-a-day or five times even, so long as I see they are digesting well and pooping and seem comfortable with it.

Eeeeeeesh, some of them I have had to make rings of ('Micropore') Tape around them, rings an inch apart starting at the primary Feather ends being taped to their Tail, and up from there to the shoulders, with "X" rounds at the shoulder area, to hold them FOR wrapping the light cloth around themas an option then merely, to tube-feed them, they were such wiggle-worms otherwise!

Ror some, if they really believe they are unable to fight or flee, they will 'finally' stay 'still'...

Of course, I always warm their formula to wrist temperature for this...even in Summer...

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Phil,
She doesn't dislike the cuddling, will give her some.
Good news. Just went in for her lunch and she had eaten all her seedsies. She has tons of almost normal looking poops. So, I skipped the lunch. Hmm, she must hate the tube feeding. 
I saw this before, when they see me coming with the tube, they start eating.LOL, cute.

I'll keep you updated.

Thanks

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Lol...

Yup, you can just walk up to them, softly whistleing some little tune or other, and, show them..."The Tube"...with a kind or 'Hmmmmm???' look on your face.

And, see if they start pecking like right-then...

Oh. that is funny...

But has some truth to it I think...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> 
> Lol...
> ...



LOL, funny. 
It is true, my Peeper was a baby, after the second tube feeding, he saw me coming with the tube, I put the syringe and the cup with the formula down and boy did he start drinking the formula on his own. He did that for a few days straight, every time, until he was able to eat millet.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

The dreaded tube  ... ..It is coming my way....oh no! !...okay..okay...I will eat all by myself now. 


Sorry couldn't resist. I'm glad she is perking up, and eating by herself, and noticing the world around her....including the tube....

It does seem like her appetite is coming back, great!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Lightly fresh-crushed Anise or Fennel Seeds ( I just roll rhem between my palms) sprinkled on top of their Seeds...sometimes are just that little bit more encouraging somehow to their appetites...

Oh! Consider to get her some thin dried matted Sea Weed and shred it up with your fingers into Beak-size peckable bites...I bet she will love it...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

LOL, Treesa. It is funny. Only Angel and Jane love the tube feeding, go figure.

Phil, i will go and read the sea weed thread again. I will get that.

She ate for dinner too. It is amazing how she percked up in less than 24 hours.
Her droppings are nice too, not at all runny, actually looking normal with the while on top.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*fecal*

It was done today and showed budding yeasts (no worms or coccidia)
I haven't decided yet what I will treat her with. 
I will start with Nystatin, I think, then check again.
She's been on vinegar since her arrival here, but seems like it isn't working.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Budding Yeasts...seeems to be the week for those now all over..!

What concentration/mix have you been useing of the ACV-Water for her so far?


And were you useing it for 'all' her Water? Drinking and formula mixing included?

If the Vinegar amount in the Water was quite light, then maybe it was not enough to prevent the Yeast build-up...


If her appetite is good presently, well, that of course is a very good thing...


Phil

Just up from a little 'power nap' ( stumble, blink...Lol)
in...
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Phil,

I use a tablespoon ACV/gallon of water.
Olivia was getting also two drops ACV in 30cc of formula twice a day. Also she is getting probiotics every other day.
I guess if the yeast count is too high it might take a long time for the ACV it work? I don't know.

Reti


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