# It never rains, but it pours...



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've been working with another rehabber in town who does raptors and other "license only" birds. They (husband/wife team) called me on Sunday desperately looking for Spartrix (Carnidazole) for a Kestrel that wasn't responding to Flagyl (Metronidazole). Actually, the bird had had visible lesions in the mouth that had responded but a lump began to form under the lower mandible, towards the back. It was about the size of a dime when the brought the bird over. I didn't have the Spartrix (I've got Met, Ronidazole and Dimetridazole) but in the newest formulary it says that raptors respond better to multiday Dimetridazole than Carnidazole so that's what I gave them including some DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide) to apply topically on the outside of the lump. The vet who works with them was out of town so they were pretty stuck. As of last night's report, the lump is not increasing in size (a good sign) so we've stabilized that one, future uncertain. At least Dr. Welch has returned in case this goes to surgery or something radical like that. He did tell them that he didn't have any Carnidazole either and to continue with the Dimetridazole until their Internet order arrives.

After yesterday with Moxie's really bad canker case, I was looking forward to vejjing out at home last night but as I walked out of the garage, one of our old-time ferals, ******, tried to fly up from the hot-tub cover and couldn't. Food, water and a few small poops later, Coccidiosis. I could just about tell by the smell but the float confirmed it this morning, massive loading. She also had trichomonads in the crop but no visible clinical signs of the disease. She's real low on strength so she must have walked to the house sometime yesterday afternoon. Lost a lot of weight, but not in the danger zone yet. I'm treating her with Corid (Amprolium) and Metronidazole because I don't want canker to arise as a secondary.

Lin, by the way, has always had a special place in her heart for ******. When she saw that it was ****** that I brought in, she came pretty close to running the lab herself.

There's more but I'm tired of typing. Hoping for a quiet day here.

Pidgey


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Wow Pidgey you have your hands full don't you? I wish you all the luck with all your sick little birds and hope everything goes ok. I hope Whitney gets better she must have know you would help her. There are life savers out there and you are one. 

Cindy


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Pidgey,

You really have had a run of difficult problems. Your wealth of knowledge constantly amazes me. And helps me tremendously as I learn how to cope with various problems that arise. 
Hope you get a couple of days to just kick back.

Margarret


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Squeaks and I are also sending our BEST!

With LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES!

I know you will keep us updated on ******...Let us know about the Kestrel too if you hear...


Shi & Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Kestrals will respond splendidly to 'Berimax', not only for clearing up Canker or it's permutations, but also for may other illnesses or vague secondary problems...and Berimax is completely benign to them with no complications.

I believe they will resond far better with Berimax than any of the 'zoles'.

And certainly no harm if one wished to combine a 'zole' with it.


I ran out, been trying to find more...so far, no luck.


It was the best ever for Canker/Trichomonal troubles...for any Birds I know of, even for delicate infants...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I noticed that the stuff is almost impossible, or very difficult, to come by a few months back. This little guy looks just like that one that I turned over to these same people last year and probably like the one you had that one time.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they put the poor Kestrel down yesterday. They put him under first to see if they could do anything about the mass itself but elected not to while the bird was under the general. I suppose they felt that the proximity to the arteries was a problem, don't know.

Got wing-flipped by ******, so there's some good news.

I can tell myself I'm not on pins and needles about Moxie's bird but that'd be a lie.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I am SO sorry to hear about the Kestrel, Pidgey! R.I.P. pretty bird!

But with the bad news, came the good news about ******!!! YES!!

Wishing him THE BEST with LOADS of SCRITCHES

Shi


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sad to hear about the kestral. They are so beautiful.

But, glad to hear ****** is slapping you. Tell her to keep it up.

You gonna do any flock treatment for the cocci?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, there's so much water about that there's no telling where they are drinking--they're all wild and eat & drink just about everywhere.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, ******'s still in the hospital. The Coccidiosis is over but there appears to be a different symptom that may signal the primary problem of which the Coccidiosis was just the secondary: her poops have that same look that Winter's did near the first of that oviduct problem. There's the solids which look fine and then there is an eggyolk-like stuff that's laden with bacteria (some kind of coccus, no detectable bacilli) that's extra. And, yes, folks, probiotics (and we're talking the good stuff--refrigerated!) are NOT helping this--it's coming from the wrong piping where they don't operate.

She's been on Baytril all this time (15 mg/kg, PO, BID; weight is 250-270 grams) and Metronidazole (200 mg/kg, PO, BID) for the first week. When Baytril (actually Orbifloxacin) didn't help Winter that time, the vet had me switch to Keflex so that's what I've done now and I'm just beginning to see some improvement.

What I think is that ****** got some kind of primary oviduct infection and that I've caught it at about the same place as I did with Winter that very first go-around. Therefore, there's no other symptoms to warrant taking the bird in TO THE VET for abdominal surgery but I'd almost be willing to bet that's what's going to have to be done eventually. So, this means that she's got to get all cured up enough to go out to the loft and then we'll see. We've got a long way to go yet.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I usually give a daily dose of colloidal silver when treating cocci along with heavy duty doses of probiotics and/or kefir. Gotta use both.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cocci or Coccidia? I've always thought you use the word "cocci" to refer to "coccidia". I was referring to a spherical form of a bacteria called a coccus (which doesn't identify a species at all, merely a form) for which the plural is "cocci". In this case, the bird's had both coccidia in the presentation of full-blown coccidiosis as well as having a discharge that's probably from the kidneys/oviduct/cloaca that's loaded with some pathogenic cocci. The coccidia went away with the Corid easily. Now, I've got to get rid of the cocci with an antibiotic that has the capability of making it through the system and driving the infection out of the affected tissues and then down the drain piping. It's just simply a place that neither probiotics or colloidal silver can reach, that's all.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I was referring to the coccidiosis, since you mentioned the probiotics, but you know.....the colloidal silver is an anti-infectant and may work on both. also some Neem, Reishi and garlic cap.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, Treesa, I really do believe that colloidal silver is quite biocidal. All the reports show that. What I don't believe is that it floats around the body systemically very well. That's nothing whatsoever against colloidal silver, though. Every cell that watches it float by wants to grab it out of the stream and absorb it like a crow picking up a "sparkly" (a crow got in the truck the other day and stole Lin's glasses!) and they don't let it go. It doesn't matter whether it's a bacteria that you don't want (and therefore want to kill) or one of your own body cells. That said, this infection appears to be in a place that requires a free-floating weapon that most cells either ignore or let back out readily and unchanged so that it can eventually circulate to it. That's what I mean.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If that is the case, then I will see about Neem oil, and the others being a "free-floating weapon" or systemic.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> If that is the case, then I will see about Neem oil, and the others being a "free-floating weapon" or systemic.


I gotta' admit that most folks you might ask won't be able to connect the dots with that analogy.

Anyhow, ******'s really beginning to come out of the woods now. The extra discharge is diminishing rapidly and the weight's coming back on rapidly now--we're over 300. In a week she'll be out in the loft.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, ******'s been on Trimethoprim/Sulfa for a couple of weeks now because the oviduct thing hasn't resolved. She's had a lot more energy but there's been a barely-palpable hardness in her abdomen all this time. She finally popped out a long-rotten egg this morning that's probably been in there for over a month now. It has probably been the thing that's been holding her back on getting completely well for all this time. The Trimethoprim/Sulfa is a good drug for penetrating into diseased and necrotic tissues.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, how in the world was she able to keep going with a rotten egg in her for a month? I am so glad she was able to expel it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Antibiotics, KayTee and a heat lamp.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2007)

Pidgey,
I think you have to consider the possibility that there are yolks or full eggs backed up inside. 
I recently got off the phone with someone who took their pigeon to a certified avian vet because the bird was oozing yolk. An ultra sound and an X-Ray showed masses of unknown origin so they had to go in. The vet had to clean out yolks that had been backed up because of one egg that didn't come out.
The bird has to go back for another surgery to remove the oviduct.
I don't know if the situation is the same but it may be similar and you say you are feeling a mass in the abdominal cavity.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, not anymore--that was the mass that I felt. She feels pretty empty now. I'll tell you, though, that once a bird has a problem with the oviduct, it's more than likely that it'll happen again. So, ****** can't be released and must spend months in the loft once she's in good enough shape to go out there. She'll have to be checked periodically and watched closely for a relapse.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This is ****** and the calcified remains of an egg that came out:



Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

****** is a beauty, but that little egg thing is pretty unattractive (kind of down right ugly). I'm glad it did come out and that ****** is feeling better.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, she is so pretty - looks much like our "******" in my avatar.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I guess it just wasn't meant to be with ****** (to become a house pigeon, I mean) so I had to throw her out into the loft this morning. She's becoming way too energetic so she can spend some time out there each day burning off some... and vinegar! Kinda' like a kid, really. She's finally eating on her own, too. I don't think she really felt good with that thing inside her even though the antibiotics were pushing the infection out of the tissues. Maybe it's like having a foreign object (grass, sand, dust, a bug) up your nose that makes it itch and you wanna' sneeze and your nose runs and runs and runs trying to get it out. The discharge that she was having only began to stop when that thing came out. There was a little bright red frank blood so you know it didn't pass easily.

Pidgey


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## SkyofAngels (Jun 28, 2007)

Wow amazing its no wonder you are tired you take care of those birds yourself and then you are there to help all of us when we have problems like you are now with my sick bird. I don't know what I would do if I hadn't happened upon this site. Thank you for your help and your love for birds. You are truely a life saver.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT NEWS about ******, Pidgey!!

Didn't see a pic of her though - for some reason...only saw the eggy thingy! 

WISHING LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES!!

Shi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

mr squeaks said:


> Didn't see a pic of her though - for some reason...only saw the eggy thingy! Shi


You have to click on the small pic of the "eggy" thing .. that will take you to a site where there is a pic of ****** .. she is lovely!

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

By the way......The colloidal silver, Neem oil, Reishi, Allicidin are indeed systemic.


Glad the bird is better.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> You have to click on the small pic of the "eggy" thing .. that will take you to a site where there is a pic of ****** .. she is lovely!
> 
> Terry



MANY THANKS, Terry! Now, how in the world was I, MS. COMPUTER ILLITERATE, supposed to know to do that? *SIGH*  

Shoot, for awhile there, I thought y'all knew some magic and I wanted in on the secret too! (Pidgey, I _will get you for that little trick!)_

****** is indeed lovely! May she give Pidgey a Wing Fu worthy of an SPP!  

Shi


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

******'s doing pretty well out in the loft now. Can't hardly catch her.

Got another one on Sunday evening that some kind folks brought over. Her tail feathers were all gone and there was a small bite taken out of one side of the tail. The exposed skin of that area was almost a deep purple and so was the inside of the beak. Respiration was running around 50 to 60. She was pretty depressed too and the only poop in the box was a small blob of tar.

I started her on Amoxicillin at 100 mg/kg, PO, BID (100 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily). After a few hours, I gave her a little bit of thin Kaytee formula. Within a day, I was giving her regular meals of Kaytee and now she's self-feeding.

She's a very short bird with a very stalky body. She reminds me of a roller or tumbler in stature but not in the face. I don't think I've seen a feral quite like her but she's not banded.

The color of the skin and inside the mouth is a lot better now, more normal. The respiration's down in the low 30s so I think we're well out of the woods.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sounds like a cat bite. Glad to know she responded to the med. Good job, Pidgey.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, ******'s been sitting on a nest for several days, now. I'm keeping a close eye on her to see if she develops an abdominal problem indicating residual oviduct damage. So far, there have been no eggs and no swelling.

But today I got a bit of surprise, when I lifted her up there were two plastic eggs under her! I didn't put them there so that must mean she must have robbed them from someone else nearby (she's on the floor). That's a first.

The other one mentioned above has adapted to the loft. That bird is kinda' odd in that it doesn't seem to have a lot of fight in it. It almost seems too tame and easygoing to run from a predator. I've put off releasing it until I see some kind of spirit emerge.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I sure hope your "low spirit" pij will recover fully!

Keeping fingers crossed for ******! 

TWO plastic eggs?? mmmmm, one could be stretching things, but TWO??? Y'know, Pidgey, _some_ people can begin to forget things as they get older...not that I'm saying you are "old" or anything... 

Uh, do you sleep walk during the day...or night?? Become confused easily? Not getting enough sleep?? I'm getting concerned since you run at twice the speed of ordinary humans.  

Shi 
& Squeaks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there are other birds on the floor close by that might have abandoned the eggs. ****** would only have to get them from a couple of feet away. It's just the idea that she did it that's funny. I've seen birds start to sit on abandoned eggs before, but I haven't seen them roll them over to their spots like that.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, there are other birds on the floor close by that might have abandoned the eggs. ****** would only have to get them from a couple of feet away. It's just the idea that she did it that's funny. I've seen birds start to sit on abandoned eggs before, *but I haven't seen them roll them over to their spots like that.*
> 
> Pidgey


I haven't heard of that either! AND, I'm sure it's unusual enough that _someone_ would have mentioned this by now...

I'M STILL SUSPICIOUS of a human -uh- hand in this... 

BUT, that's only because IF this had happened with SOMEONE ELSE's pij, I would have given the benefit of a doubt...but, *SIGH* in your case...well, 'nuf said...   

Shi
(just naturally "suspicious")


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Mizzz Sqvawks, I'll have you know that it got worse--the birds of that corner started doing some baby-stealing from a couple that was there that successfully fooled me into not realizing that those weren't plastic eggs they were sitting on. So, with two "oops" babies for the one couple, another hen kept stealing one of the babies away for herself (and her husband).

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, Mizzz Sqvawks, I'll have you know that it got worse--the birds of that corner started doing some baby-stealing from a couple that was there that successfully fooled me into not realizing that those weren't plastic eggs they were sitting on. So, with two "oops" babies for the one couple, another hen kept stealing one of the babies away for herself (and her husband).
> 
> Pidgey


Oh MY! Pardon me but I AM ROFL!! Mmmm, does that mean the plastic ones should be "painted" another color???

Some will do just about anything to have a "baby!" Sounds like you have your hands full!! 

DO keep us informed!!! I, for one, want to hear more about your MUSICAL EGGS and SQUABS!    

HKLL

Shi 
& Squeaks (who says that he doesn't have those problems...he only has ONE egg to keep track of. No problem, since the cats aren't interested!)


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