# Natural Solutions for Bath Water



## de Vera Loft (Mar 11, 2009)

I just wanted to know what are other alternatives i can use for bath water for pigeons instead of the one i can buy at the store???


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

de Vera Loft said:


> I just wanted to know what are other alternatives i can use for bath water for pigeons instead of the one i can buy at the store???



I guess "natural" could mean just plain water..... I have heard of borax soap....the 20 Mule Team type...if they even sell the stuff any more. It's been awhile since I have been in a store. I don't really know what is in the "Bath Salts" that they sell in pigeon supply places. Personally I use a product imported from Belgium. Called "Natural Badzout" Could be a cheaper way to go, but I only provide my athletes what I consider "The Best". My thinking is I did not spare any expense to acquire what I thought were the best, so it never made any sense to me to try to short change them in any thing along the way. The result has been in the end, they look and feel like a million $$$$.  Now, if something less expensive, might actually be better, then I am willing to listen...but I won't consider an inferior product to save a $. But, that is me, and I am a little funny that way.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I guess "natural" could mean just plain water..... I have heard of borax soap....the 20 Mule Team type...if they even sell the stuff any more. It's been awhile since I have been in a store. I don't really know what is in the "Bath Salts" that they sell in pigeon supply places. Personally I use a product imported from Belgium. Called "Natural Badzout" Could be a cheaper way to go, but I only provide my athletes what I consider "The Best". My thinking is I did not spare any expense to acquire what I thought were the best, so it never made any sense to me to try to short change them in any thing along the way. The result has been in the end, they look and feel like a million $$$$.  Now, if something less expensive, might actually be better, then I am willing to listen...but I won't consider an inferior product to save a $. But, that is me, and I am a little funny that way.


Warren, you just tickle me sometimes.........LOL


*Badzout:* These bath salts from Comed are a premium bath salt blend that promotes fine feather quality 750 gr....$7.50

*Feather-Kleen Bath Salts *– Use in bath water to promote silky feathering. Safe and easy to use. 2 1/2 lbs....$6.95

*Pego Bath Salts *– Excellent formulation for bringing silky sheen to the feathers. 750 gr. $5.95

*Natural Bath Salts *– Brings on a soft, smooth plumage and rids the skin of flakiness. Also helps to relax the muscles. 650 gr. $4.95

*APC Pigeon Bathsalts *-- A great blend of bath salts and herbal oils that promotes good plumage and soothes the birds. Developed by Dr. Colin Walker, the "Flying Vet." 750 gr. $6.95

*Ideal Bath Salts *– From Fabry, a time honored product. Use in the bath water to condition the feathers, relax the muscles, remove skin scales and promote down moult 750 gr. $6.95

Why is it that Badzout is "the best"? Because it costs more? Because it's "imported" from Belgium? Heck 90% of the pigeon products are imported from SOMEWHERE.........They all advertise the same darn thing. They all "do" the same darn thing. Shiny feathers. Now, I understand if you've got money to burn and want to go the expensive route, but just because it costs more, doesn't mean it better.......
As for Borax, the "20 mule team type"..LOL........yes they DO still sell it and yes I've always used it in my birds bath water and yes, I've had people comment on how "slick" my birds felt and have been asked "what do you put in their bath water"? 
Check your bottle and see if it has the ingredients listed. Wouldn't you like to know exactly WHAT is put in these "bath salts" that make them so much more superior than anything else? I mean, how MANY different ingredients can a person use to make "bath salts"? 
I have no idea what's in the Borax........I just know my birds shine and feel good and it ain't killed one yet and I can buy it locally and not pay shipping and don't have to worry about it being out of stock or running out and if I do, I can just run right down to the local grocery and get some.
Now, I'm not picking on you......well, maybe just a wee bit........LOL.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> Warren, you just tickle me sometimes.........LOL
> 
> 
> *Badzout:* These bath salts from Comed are a premium bath salt blend that promotes fine feather quality 750 gr....$7.50
> ...


Hey.....well.....I do sometimes use price as a guide....it makes me "feel good".... Now...I don't know, you might be the type that uses generic toilet paper ?..... And you might buy those "Store Brands" !! 

I might try that Borax sometime, once I finish up the case of "good" stuff I currently own. Maybe if I buy a big box it will cost more then $7.50 and then I won't feel guilty !


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Try garlic juice its natural *GEORGE ps. OH hell throw in some apple cider viniger


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

I use Borax on Renee's recommendation and my Whites are blinding white and squeaky clean!!! You pros are funny sometimes. LOL


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Borax is mined in Boron, CA. It is about 2 hours from me. It is a huge operation.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

For me it's Borax and Epsom Salts. Some folks are leary of the Epsom 
salts but I have had great results. The birds come out of their bath and feel as smooth as a baby's....well, you know!

Dan


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I went to their website, and it showed many products in which borax is used, including bath salts.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I use borax one week. Then the next bath I put vinegar. And cycle it.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hey.....well.....I do sometimes use price as a guide....it makes me "feel good".... Now...I don't know, you might be the type that uses generic toilet paper ?..... And you might buy those "Store Brands" !!
> 
> I might try that Borax sometime, once I finish up the case of "good" stuff I currently own. Maybe if I buy a big box it will cost more then $7.50 and then I won't feel guilty !


Now TOILET PAPER???? I use the GOOD stuff..........gotta be soft!!! LOL


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Because I have several white looking birds, borax usually makes them look really "white." They ended up looking really clean as if they glow in the sun. I wonder if Tide detergent will work. Just kidding!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*20 Mule Team*



Ok....I sent the wife into Walmart......I hid in the parking lot with a disguise....and she did her nomal shopping. She purchased a 4 pound 12 ounce box for $2.98.

Now, nowhere does it tell me on the box what Borax really is....the only thing I remember is the B & W TV commercials that came on the show....was it "Death Valley Days" ? I figured they dug it out of the ground somewhere in "Death Valley".....something the cow boys used to wash their clothers every six months or so, wheather they needed to or not.......

Anyways....I never really learned the metric system (I was told it was a vast Communist conspiracy of some sort)....but my imported stuff is $7.50 + shipping for 650 grams. I'm not a real math whiz...but this Borax stuff is "less expensive"...now what will happen when they drink it ?! 

How much do I put into say 4 1/2 gallons of water ? Will it kill any bugs ? It sure seems to do a lot of things according to the box ! Will I be laughed at for being "cheap"....or can I say I'm am giving them the best ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

RodSD said:


> I use borax one week. Then the next bath I put vinegar. And cycle it.


What do you mean by "cycle" it....don't you mean recycle ? Do you then use it on your salad ? I don't know that I would want to eat it after my birds took a bath in it !  I have heard some strange things.....but I want my ACV straight out of the Braggs bottle...I'm willing to cut costs, but this sounds a little too extreme for me. And the wife is willing to do a test load of laundry...but I am sure she won't go for me pouring the bird's bath water into the Washing machine, I would try it, but she won't let me near "her" machine anymore. I had this bright idea to wash and recycle felt nesh pads...she did a bit more then scream at me.....wives are funny about things like that I suppose.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Ok....I sent the wife into Walmart......I hid in the parking lot with a disguise....and she did her nomal shopping. She purchased a 4 pound 12 ounce box for $2.98.
> 
> Now, nowhere does it tell me on the box what Borax really is....the only thing I remember is the B & W TV commercials that came on the show....was it "Death Valley Days" ? I figured they dug it out of the ground somewhere in "Death Valley".....something the cow boys used to wash their clothers every six months or so, wheather they needed to or not.......
> 
> ...


Nothing will happen if they drink it. My birds, especially the YB's always take a drink before the get in the first time anyway........LOL...none have killed over..........
I've been told that the residue left in the emptied bath pan, if picked at, can harm them, but I don't leave my empty bath pans sitting around anyway....so that's not a concern to me. If they don't have water in them, then there's no reason for them to in the loft/aviary, etc, where the birds have access to them. 
I put about 1 tbs per gallon.......I don't measure exactly, but that's close. If a bird has a bad case of mites then I don't think the Borax will do that much to get rid of all of them, but birds that are bug free or maybe pick up a few in the race basket, given a bath at least once a week, will not have bugs........
I PROMISE I won't laugh at you for being "cheap" and to me it's not "cheap"......but being frugal (whatever that means......I think it's a cool word...LOL)
Hey, for $3, if you don't like it, give it to the wife to use with the laundry.......
Oh, and I will say that it's easiest mixed if you put it in a little hot water and shake/stir it good, then add the rest of the water. It might NOT dissolve as easily as the bath salts that you're used to.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I'll have to try that Borax stuff! I currently use bath salts and it's not cheap.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

*Flux*

Borax is a water dissolvable fluxing agent, also will dissolve in high heat. I use it in blacksmithing on two pieces of metal just before I forge weld them together. When the metal is at high heat you put on the borax and it melts, coats the iron, drives out the oxegen and impurities so that it aids in a clean weld. With the birds Boarx does the same thing, it dissolves in the water, coats every feather fiber, and when it dries it stiffens up the feather just a wee bit. Makes the feathers smooth so that no s--- sticks to them. Helpfull with mites and lice. Coats the insects bodies, the insects breathe through their skin, so when the borax dries it's like coating them in glass, they suffocate and fall off. Doesn't hurt the birds to drink it as long as you don't mix a box to a gallon or two. I've always used it and never use bath salts until the season is over to clean them out before they go into "cold storage" for the winter.

Ralph


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Warren,

My bad! I didn't explain that well. Basically in one week I give them borax (1 tablespoon per gallon). Then the next week plain vinegar (1 tablespoon per gallon). Then another week later borax. Then vinegar again. You know like iterative cycle or repeating cycle.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

pigeon_racer said:


> Borax is a water dissolvable fluxing agent, also will dissolve in high heat. I use it in blacksmithing on two pieces of metal just before I forge weld them together. When the metal is at high heat you put on the borax and it melts, coats the iron, drives out the oxegen and impurities so that it aids in a clean weld. With the birds Boarx does the same thing, it dissolves in the water, coats every feather fiber, and when it dries it stiffens up the feather just a wee bit. Makes the feathers smooth so that no s--- sticks to them. Helpfull with mites and lice. Coats the insects bodies, the insects breathe through their skin, so when the borax dries it's like coating them in glass, they suffocate and fall off. Doesn't hurt the birds to drink it as long as you don't mix a box to a gallon or two. I've always used it and never use bath salts until the season is over to clean them out before they go into "cold storage" for the winter.
> 
> Ralph


Thanks Ralph,

For a second there, I thought I was going to have to ask what a fluxing agent was....but you explained it in a manner that even I can understand. 

Now in terms of lice etc. I wish someone could explain how the traditional pigeon bath salts acts on them. I still have a bunch of the containers, so I will continue to use that stuff also. I am just one of those people who hates to see lice, and so I dip my birds and at times give them internal things to rid them of these critters. I just can't stand them they just give me the creeps. 

And pigeon flies, well they are even worse, on shipping night once, I was going to refuse to ship a pigeon which had pigeon flies. I guess I should have been more diplomatic, the fancier became offended and later quit our club. But, I thought then, and still do now, that a pigeon on shipping night has no business with pigeon flies. To me, it shows a lack of care.

Also any ideas as to which agent is the most deadly on these critters ?


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

I have used the 20 mule borax before with good results. I am wondering if it was borax my grandfather used to use in his forging activities. I wish the heck I had paid more attention to things like that when I was a kid.
I am always leery about adding things to the bath water for fear they might drink it. Borax does not seem to be a problem. 
I would be extremely careful, matter of fact, I would never use any type of dish or laundry detergent to let my birds bath in. The chemicals in them just scare the heck out of me. (I own a trailer park and I have it in my leases that people can not use Tide in the laundry. It contains phosphates which the DNR told me would play heck on my septic/lagoon system.)


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Warren,
That bath salt name is so generic. Do you really know what is inside that stuff? I hate when a box doesn't really mentions the real ingredients. Usually they are hiding something like maybe the product can be had for less.

For borax it is simple: It is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax a mineral.

For bath salt it can be the following:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_salts. So as you can see it can be a common table salt, epsom salt, baking soda and others. Three of that you can find in grocery store , drug store, maybe in Walmart!


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Borax, it makes your Whites really white and the colors really bright.
(Do I sound like a detergent commercial or what?)


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I use the borax and the vinegar on different days. sometimes though I will use just one teaspoon of nolvasan solution in the bath water and it gets them Really clean! I also use it in a spray bottle and spay the loft down with it on occassion. here is what it is mainly used for

[edit] Use in animals
For use in animals, it is used as a topical disinfectant of wounds. It is more effective in killing bacteria (bactericidal) than both povidone-iodine and saline and has residual effects up to 6 hours. Some common brand names are Nolvasan Skin and Wound Cleaner, and Nolvasan Ointment. It is also more beneficial to wound healing than using saline solutions alone.[12]


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> [edit] Use in animals
> For use in animals, it is used as a topical disinfectant of wounds. It is more effective in killing bacteria (bactericidal) than both povidone-iodine and saline and has residual effects up to 6 hours. Some common brand names are Nolvasan Skin and Wound Cleaner, and Nolvasan Ointment. It is also more beneficial to wound healing than using saline solutions alone.[12]


Is this something to have is my loft for the next wounded bird????


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

RodSD said:


> Warren,
> That bath salt name is so generic. Do you really know what is inside that stuff? I hate when a box doesn't really mentions the real ingredients. Usually they are hiding something like maybe the product can be had for less.
> 
> For borax it is simple: It is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax a mineral.
> ...


Shoot !  I think I have been had !! You may be so very right. I was sold some expensive snake oil I suspect. This new box of Borax could fill maybe 7 or 8 of the bottles of bath salts that I paid $7.50 each + shipping. So, for $2.98 I can replace maybe $70 of "Imported" & "Natural" bath salts.....
Geez....

These threads can even help an old guy like me....who normally is a bit stuck on his ideas ! Thanks everyone !


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I'm sold now.....my pigeons use only the best, they use

*20 Mule Team Borax !! *

http://www.dialcorp.com/documents/borax.pdf

http://www.20muleteamlaundry.com/index.cfm?page_id=56

And the best part, you don't have to order it from a pigeon supply dealer and pay postage !! To find a store near you, check out this store locator.

http://www.dialcorp.com/storelocator/storeloc2.cfm

PS. My birds tried it, and they love it, and they are so clean they sparkle !


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

LOL Warren!

I like to use that borax because they do make the birds sparkle especially for white birds. To me they glow in the sun.

Now my idea of having my own natural bath salt is to go to the beach and surf. But I usually ends up with sunburn. So I don't end up sparkling, but rather dark and tan.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

For Pigeon Flys the best item I have found is "Permectrin II". The main ingredient is Permethrin which is a natural biodegradable insecticide. It lasts about 6 months, I use it after giving the lofts a complete scraping out. I use a pump up garden sprayer, remove the birds from the loft, put my mask on, remove the waterer, and spray every surface, crack, and cranny! It mixes with water so after it dries I put my birds back in and no more pin holes in the birds new feathers. You can find it in your farm and garden store, just make sure that the primary ingredient is Permethrin. The type I bought in manufactured by "Anchor" and I use 1 Tsp per gallon of water in the sprayer. Works on all flies, mosquitoes, mites, lice, etc. If you notice any insects that stay in the loft and don't die, then it's time to spray again. Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Big T said:


> Is this something to have is my loft for the next wounded bird????


It would be a good thing to have on hand for wounds, esp if you fly your birds, you never know when you might need it, mixes with water.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Ralph,

Thanks for the tips on permethrin spray. I've never thought of that. LOL!


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