# Pigeon Pregnancy



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Is there anyway to tell when a Hen is "with eggs?"


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Zig the feathers at the base of the tail will hump up, it is obvious just by looking at the bird. You can also feel the egg by feeling between the vent bones and the end of the keel if it's close. Don't press hard !!!!
The vent bones also start widening apart before the egg drops to it's final stage, grab some hens and you can learn what is "more" normal vrs an eggy hen as far as the width of vent bone's.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Keel?

Vent Bones?

Is there such a thing as "Grey's Anatomy - For Pigeons"???


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Ok here we go , feel under the pigeon, there is a bone that runs from the base of the crop towards the vent and stops an inch or so from the vent depending on the bird. The vent is "a well you know LOL" between the vent and the end of the keel are two small bones that can be fairly close together or wider apart depending on if the hen is eggy or not,a cocks vent bone's are allways close together (.'.) OK see my little picture , the ( ) is the body from underneath, the bottom of the tail would be coming out the bottom,the Two .. are the vent bones and the actual vent is between the base of the tail and the vent bones but closer into the vent bones, the keel is the ' Of coarse the proportions are off as the keel is 3 plus in long depending on the breed. grab a pigeon and start feeling for it you cant miss it , any pigeon will do. They arent made of fine China and you won't hurt them but don't man handle them either. If the hen is a little further out you will feel the end of the egg at the end of the Keel.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

PS Zig I burnt my clam chowder explaining this. So were going to make sure that you learn this.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

ML, thanks for the intel. Its dark outside now, but when I catch one tomorrow I'll give it a little "exam" to go over what you said. Seems I'll probably these things out sooner then later... the BC Cock and BB Hen that seem to have mated were... err... "going at it" again today. 


Oh... and sorry about the clam chowder...


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Zig, Do you have a eggy hen ?


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

I'm not sure. I'm kind of reluctant to try to catch her because I don't want to hurt her of break an egg inside of her or anything. I did catch one of the other birds and checked out the stuff you told me about and I'm pretty sure I understand, thanks again.

I first saw the BC cock bird trying to top her back around 7 Nov when I made the original post... which if I understand things right, she'd lay eggs about 10 days later if it "worked", but as recently as yesterday, he was still trying to top her. He's in the nest box right now calling to her... I can hear his "roo-coo-groan-moan-get over here to the nest woman" call. Also, I put some nesting materials out to see if they would start building a nest... no joy... it just got scattered around the loft, but at least it looked like they had great fun playing with it... (tabacoo stems)..  

So, to try to answer your question, again, I'm not sure. I think maybe they're still just "practicing" or maybe she's still too young? I'm guessing she's about 5 months old, at the youngest, and maybe a month or three older, at the oldest. We'll see.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Here are the courtship stages I've seen (this is with long established pairs):
1. Female wanders around checking out various places to eat or nest, male trails behind, frantic if he can't see her.
2. Male stands in nest, bowing and cooing, softly calling the hen to join him.
3. Male lays under (at least his front half!) female, pretending to be a cute baby, still some cooing. Sometimes they just lay side by side, cuddling in the nest.
4. Hen sits really deep in nest (no space under her); male is nearby and may use his body to hold her in place. She is within a day or so of laying.
5. Hen is in nest, male is away from nest, but on alert. With my setup, I'll notice that it's almost dark and the male is out in the flight pen staring at the coop. When this happens, I'm pretty sure she will lay that evening.
6. Another tip off that the first egg has been laid is the male is very busy bringing in nest material.
7. Even though I replace all eggs with fake ones, I wait till later the next day so they can relax and enjoy their accomplishment.

I would be interested to learn of other folks' observations regarding courtship activities.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The hen lays around 5 to 6 pm in the evening. This hold true most the time. If they are not desturbed. Your birds are not the 6 month age I thought. So the hen may not lay for a while. And if so the first egg can be a small egg. The old rule At breeding age. The cock and hen pair off. Get busy setting up a nest if provided the area becomes there nest area. The cock tops the hen several times. And within a ten day period the hen should lay. The cock will be driving the hen to the nest. Sometimes the hen has problems just getting to eat and drink. As the cock is after her to nest. The day she is ready to lay the vent area will be full with egg. A cock to young wont fertile eggs well. And a young hen may not lay for sometime. Then Basicly they will just be an open pair of birds.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

TerriB said:


> Here are the courtship stages I've seen (this is with long established pairs):
> 1. Female wanders around checking out various places to eat or nest, male trails behind, frantic if he can't see her.
> 2. Male stands in nest, bowing and cooing, softly calling the hen to join him.
> 3. Male lays under (at least his front half!) female, pretending to be a cute baby, still some cooing. Sometimes they just lay side by side, cuddling in the nest.
> ...



Well... I've definitly seen "my happy couple" doing #2 & #3... maybe a little bit of #1, but I wouldn't say as I've noticed... "...male trails behind, *frantic* if he can't see her..."... to a large extent.

Regarding #6... question... so they don't start paying attention to nesting materials / building a nest until _*after*_ the first egg is laid?

I watched them for awhile tonight after they all got their "dinner." The two in question, preened each other and circled each other a bit bobing heads and more preening and some cuddling... the Hen made a softer "call to the nest" coo that I frequently hear the cock bird make. I suppose they're just heavy into the courtship (dating) stage at this point!??!  

I got some nest felts from Jedds today... just incase. At what point do you'all think I should put one out in their nest bowl? Now or wait a bit??


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

He may bring in a few twigs during earlier in the courtship phase, but what I notice is the male spending noticable time ferrying in nest material while the female sits on the nest.

I'd put the nest pads in now, so you don't disturb their creation.

I have found it helpful to keep a journal, just jot down a few lines to keep track of when you give meds, or a change in behavior. Makes it easy to remember that the same thing happened last year at this time. ;-)


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Et All... well, I'm still seeing a bunch of #2 and #3 out of my "couple", Big B*tch, a BC _Cock_ that came to me reportedly being a Hen and Honey a BB that I'm figuring is a Hen, but no eggs as of yet. They court and Big-B tops her... I catch them at that at least once everry couple of days or so or a couple of times a day if I happen to be home all day... but still no eggs. Maybe Honey is too young or maybe Big-B is really a Hen and I've got a pair of mated Hens... or he's just really bad at it...  ... or their too young or something. Anyway, probably about the time I quit paying attention or counting days, I'll go out into the loft and find them sitting eggs.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

I just looked out into my loft and Honey is laying down sleeping and her mate, Big-B, is standing over her.

Can I get a big.... Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwww


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Okay... awhile ago I observed Big-B doing his "dance"... coos loudly, stretches up his neck and drags his tail on the ground, but NOT for his mate, rather in front of one of the other pigeons. A BB named John that looks a lot like Honey (Big-B's mate) but a bit darker... I used to have trouble telling John and Honey apart unless I looked real close.

Anyway, maybe Big-B was just confused or he's just really hor*y?  

Well, Big-B and Honey were up in their nest box after that taking a nap together in their nest bowl, so I dunno...


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Well, 23 Nov. Still no eggs from Big-B & Honey, but they're still "at it".


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

... home for lunch now...

Big-B is dragging nesting materials up to his and Honey's nest box.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Okay... awhile ago I observed Big-B doing his "dance"... coos loudly, stretches up his neck and drags his tail on the ground, but NOT for his mate, rather in front of one of the other pigeons. A BB named John that looks a lot like Honey (Big-B's mate) but a bit darker... I used to have trouble telling John and Honey apart unless I looked real close.
> 
> Anyway, maybe Big-B was just confused or he's just really hor*y?
> 
> Well, Big-B and Honey were up in their nest box after that taking a nap together in their nest bowl, so I dunno...


Zig,

I was lol on this lists of posts. And fondly looking back some 40 years ago to my first pair laying that very first egg ! It was very exciting, and I felt the joy and excitement of becoming a parent. But let me explain the true facts of pigeon life to you. We have all heard the story of pigeons remaining as a couple for life ? That can be true, but your Big-B and any other male pigeon, will be a two timer ! If given the chance, a three, four or five timer for that matter. 

The reason for the cock bird driving her to the nest, and keeping his eye on her every second the time gets closer to laying the egg, is to make sure he is the sire to the offspring. Watch for Big-B chasing her around pecking at her, until she goes back to the nest. This is "driving her to nest" and then you should be within a couple days of the blessed event.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Oh yeah, I understand the whole, "Pigeons may mate for life, but aren't necessarily faithful" thing.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

*Pigeons Have No Shame!*

 

Okay, I'm out in the loft here just awhile ago, putting up traps on the new landing board / aviary (or what ever you want to call it) that I finished last weekend... and I look over, and there, not 3 feet from me is Big-B topping his make, Honey! Geeze!!! Can't you birds get a room or something!!! 

Anyway, maybe now I know why they've been at it since the first week of Nov and still no eggs... doesn't look like he's got the technique down right, as his "parts" weren't really up against her "parts"...


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

*Mated Cocks & Hens*

A question to y'all out there that have ever had a pair of "mated cocks" or a pair of "mated hens"... when that happens, I'd imagine that they would still go through most of the courtship rituals, but would one still try to top the other?? ... and would it always be the same one trying to top the other?


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Yes Zig hens and cocks both will mate up but mainly the hens, I've never noticed hens topping each. Some cocks will top anything that allows them to do so. The hens when mated will go through all the motions including laying and sitting. The only time I see that is when I have them split up for the season,other than that all my pairings are allways planned.

On that trap, make darn sure that you are able to close it off so that nothing can get in when not in use !!!!!! very very important. Every year I see pics after everything from cats to Cooper hawks that have entered through traps and it isnt pretty. I suffered the wrath of a cat through a trap when I was a kid and it was a hard lesson learned. My landing boards flip up and latch to cover my traps


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

MLL,

So... basically, if I have a bird that is consistently topping another, I can pretty much firgure its a Cock & Hen? I am wondering though, after almost a month of courting and nesting and topping... no eggs!... what up with that.

Anyway, no worries on my landing board / trap set-up. Its what I think I've heard call a California Landing Board / Trap set-up... either way, nothing is getting in... there would be one less cat in the world if it did somehow manage to get in and I caught it.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Zig post a picture of the bird and lets take a stab at it, probably just young I would think.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Motherlodelofts said:


> Zig post a picture of the bird and lets take a stab at it, probably just young I would think.


Yeah, I need to take somemore pictures of my birds and post them. It was guesstimated that the original 6 I got back the last week of Sept were about 3 months old then.


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## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

*Same Sex Matings*

Zig, I have had 2 pair of hens (not at the same time) that mated up of their own free will even though there were extra males in the loft. I was never able to observe their mating overtures but they were very affectionate and layed 4 eggs in the nest in perfect sequence.  However, when I removed them and caged them with a male until they were bonded, they have stayed faithful (well...as faithful as can be expected) to their respective mates in an open loft situation.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Zig can you explain this trap setup


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Motherlodelofts said:


> Zig can you explain this trap setup



I'll try to take some pics of my set-up and post them in the next few days, but until then... basically, I copied this for my Landing Board / Trap area...

http://www.redroselofts.com/starter_loft.htm


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Well... its like what, Dec 5th? Big-B & Honey have been at it since the first week of Nov... and still no eggs. Okay, I realize they're still too young and that's why.

But anyway... at least, the last few days, Big-B has been more serious about taking nesting materials up to the box and today Honey has been sitting in the nest most all day... so, maybe.  

Oh well, no big either way. Just figured I'd post an update.

Rumor on the street though is that ZooKeeper is going to be a Grandmom... again  ... soon.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Sounds like it's getting close Zig. Are the vent bones spreading ?


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Motherlodelofts said:


> Sounds like it's getting close Zig. Are the vent bones spreading ?



Well... maybe. Honey is very hard to catch... she's usually panting by the time I can corner her and pick her up after several laps back and forth across the loft, so I hate to stress her like that... or I'm just really really bad at catching pigeons...  Anyway, I did catch her yesterday and seems she's a bit different back there as compared to George, who I also think is a hen. I'm still a bit un-sure about the whole pigeon anatomy thing...  Anyway, we'll see. Of course I'm going out of town Tue and return Thur... a friend / critter sitter will be looking in on my birds to give them water and feed while I'm gone.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Rumor on the street though is that ZooKeeper is going to be a Grandmom... again  ... soon.



The rumor is true, I have eggs. The soft music, the smell of fresh pine needles and a loft full of pijjies has produced my future grand children pijjies.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

George was no doubt a hen, Cocks vent bones are allways close, the hens will open up and some hens are allways slightly spread. With the size of your loft it would be much better using a fishing net or do it at night after dark with a flash light. I keep fairly small lofts within my loft. This helps keep the birds from being so flighty as they can never get more than 4-5 from you and most of my birds you can just pick up.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Well... here we are Dec 10th and still no eggs out of Honey! She and Big-B have built a nest... have fornicated more in the last month or so then I have in my whole life...  ... and no eggs!!! I think they're gay!!!  

Okay... JUST KIDDING!!!!! ... but still no eggs.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

... well, 16 Dec and still no eggs out of Honey & Big-B. Actually, I'm wondering if I should break-up the nest they've built... ?? ... as I don't want it to become a source of things like mites & lice!  I've been leaving it alone as I don't want it to be disturbed incase she were to go lay eggs there soon...  


Also, looks like Janey and George are "hookin up". I saw them perched in the same nest box and saw Janey try to top George... umm, don't let the names fool ya, I think they're the opposite sex from what their names would indicate, just can't be bothered to change them... anyway... Janey made an attempt to top George, George didn't object, but then it didn't look like Janey had it totally figured out either...


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Maybe with your names they are just really confused  Don't worry Zig one problem that pigeons "don't" have is reproducing. Just a matter of time


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Zig, I think you are making yourself egg crazy,  Our young birds are the same age and mine just laid their first egg last night. I am sure your young birds will lay soon. I would just leave that nest they made alone. Just think of the nest and a "labor bag". It is all ready to go when the even occurs.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Yeah, all... I know... I'm going to go from checking to see if they laid any eggs yet twice a day to cursing that they laid more eggs and replacing them with dummies or splitting my loft in half to seperate the cocks and hens...


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Zig, you are going to be a crazy man later as well as now. You are now wanting them so bad and in a few months you will be crazy trying to stop them. At least you already know it.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

zoo keeper said:


> Zig, you are going to be a crazy man later as well as now. You are not wanting them so bad and in a few months you will be crazy trying to stop them. At least you already know it.


Well, maybe someone who's building a YB race team will want them?


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Did you hear someone was building a YB team?


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Dunno. I probably wouldn't give away any of my first babies anyways.

I guess I have to get some bands too...  ... but I'm not part of a club nor do I intend to join one at this time.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

You can buy bands from Foys or Jedds,


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The hen will most times lay around 5 to 6 pm. So you really wont need to check more the one time a day. And sounds like it may still be awhile befor she lays at all. But one day she will.


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