# Please help diagnose this "listless" bird...



## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I have described this problem under another thread called "Listless bird...again" but now the issue has been focused. The vet did xrays, blood tests, fecal exam, throat etc....no diagnosis except a slightly enlarged heart and liver and low heart rate (around 100). No infection shows up in the blood, no worms in the feces, lungs clear, mouth and throat are clean and healthy looking. ...just listless and with those two enlarged organs and a low heart rate. She is on Baytril since yesterday. No congestion or respiration problems. What else can we check for? What else might it be? Vet will culture for strep but was uncertain where to best get the "sample"...since he is not a pigeon expert (mostly does parrots) and since mouth looked so good is not feeling like it is strep. Ideas? Brain storms? (2nd bird in two weeks to present with these symptoms. First one died within 5 days despite heat and supportive care. That is why I have to find out the problem. Loft has 33 other birds in it!)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't know but I can tell you that worms don't always show up in a fecal. Recently, I saw a worm, making an escape from the hind section of my dog. I took some poop for analysis that very day. The vet sent it to a lab. It came back negitive for worms.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

They were wormed this month....I am hesitant to worm this specific bird again while she is a bit weak and on Baytril...unless it really looks like that is the problem? Is there any harm to worming her again?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did the vet rule out Hypokalemia (low serum potassium)?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I woudn't worm her again just now. You could put a garlic clove in her water. I put powdered garlic on the pigeon seed mix and my birds love it that way.
I think you are right to wait and see how she is after the baytril treatment. I'll ask my vet friend tomorrow and see if she has any idea.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Other things that can cause bradycardia (slowed heartbeat) include pesticide and insecticide poisoning. Any chance of that?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just looked at your other thread on this bird...do continue to tube feed her. I would think that with the baytril, if it is going to help, you could see some improvement by tomorrow.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the things that they have to watch out for while treating liver disease is hypokalemia, by the way. Was serum potassium included in the bloodwork?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> One of the things that they have to watch out for while treating liver disease is hypokalemia, by the way. Was serum potassium included in the bloodwork?
> 
> Pidgey


That's a very interesting possibility.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I will call the vet in the AM to see if hypokelemia was included in the blood work..it seemed like a fairly extensive panel and he even asked my permission to include some lesser used "tests"...We just gave her the evening dose of baytril and also a little bit of Katee since, while she is eating "some seed" I do not think it is enough...how many "teaspoons" a day is normal (I thought 2 or 3?) Is there some easier or more attractive to eat/digest seed I should switch her to instead of their basic feed mix while she is "off"? Should I leave a seed dish out 24/7 or offer just in the AM and PM? So many questions!!! She coontinues to have many black squiggly poops, surrounded by a small puddle of wet white/green liquid. Is this partly due to the meds? Doesn't green mean starvation? ????????????????


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If the pop is bright green, it could mean starvation. Leave the food in the cage all the time. What is a little bit of Katee mean?...How much is that?


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Only 5 to 10 ml, (and actually I am using Exact)....I know as an adult she needs about 40 ml at each feeding, but she seems to be eating some seed too. If her crop is not spongy/full in the AM, then I will use the fabric over syringe method and make her take a larger meal...I'll weigh her in the AM too and see if she's lost/gained etc. since Weds. when she was 295 grams. Poops are not super bringh green, just a pale green mixed with the white.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

5-10 ml isn't enough.... 40 ml at each feeding seems like too much.
Personally...I would feed 15 ml in the morning and 15 ml in the eveining as support to what she is already eating and until she starts eating more on her own.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Rings a bell that greenish tint in the liquid or urates can point to liver / kidney problems? Since the vet sees enlarged liver maybe that inflammation is causing the poop appearance.

Did your vet do any assays for viral infection? I'm sorry if you already answered that and I missed it


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She needs about 40 Calories per day, which would be about four (4) level teaspoons of dry Kaytee, diluted with whatever amount of water that you use and administered in two or three feedings per day as you like. The Calories can best be measured as dry Kaytee.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm providing the link for Brian Speer who does do phone consultations. He is located in Oakley and regarded one of the best avian vets.http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/site/view/96637_Doctors.pml


[Kudos to little bird for thinking of looking up Brian Speer for you.]


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

She is perky this AM...pecking at me when I try to check her crop. She ate a teaspoon or so of seed overnight but her keel is too prominent and I don't think her crop is full enough. Now I have the name of a vet to consult with mine...via PMs among some generous members here.

The Snipes...I think the vet said he can only check for virus by necropsy ? but then he said if we felt it might be strep he could "culture" it for a few days....but not sure what to culture. That is why he was willing to take advice or suggestions. He wants the bird to do well and he is willing to assist in any way possible.

I'll supplement the food and give the Baytril until the vets tell me otherwise on the meds....isolation and heat...what else?


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

I have e-mailed Dr. Speer with a case history trying to set up a consultation with my vet for Monday...maybe ecen today if I am lucky, tho the hen seems stable right now. I'll keep folks posted.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Thats great!


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*Hooray...expert is going to consult...*

Dr. Speer very kindly responded to my e-mail inquiry almost right away. He agreed it was a mystery that needed solving and was exactly the kind of work they do.  

I have called my vet here and they are faxing lab reports and a code so Dr. Speer can access the xrays on line. Then the two vets will chat, (maybe not until next Tuesday), and hopefully find out what to treat!

I gave ACV to the flock today...and am disinfecting all the equipment, boxes etc. and replacing all nest bowls with new. What other supportive care should they get in case they have been exposed to some low level problem that an immuno supressed bird could contract?


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. I hope the vets are able to figure out the problem and everything gets back to normal soon.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

At bedtime "April" is very feisty!!!! Her poops are better, little to no green and nice "nutty" center. I still do not think she is eating enough on her own. We gave her 15-20 cc Exact by spoon eek: ) I am wearing half of it but I was afraid I was squirting it too far down her throat with the syringe. I'll weigh her again tomorrow and give her a little "out" time in the bathroom and maybe a short bath. (She is also molting.) I'll have a better idea of her strength and attitude then, and be able to compare her status to the way the bird I lost last month acted at the same stage. I am going to feel really stupid involving these experts and all of you if this turns out to be nothing at all!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kippermom said:


> At bedtime "April" is very feisty!!!! Her poops are better, little to no green and nice "nutty" center. I still do not think she is eating enough on her own. We gave her 15-20 cc Exact by spoon eek: ) I am wearing half of it but I was afraid I was squirting it too far down her throat with the syringe. I'll weigh her again tomorrow and give her a little "out" time in the bathroom and maybe a short bath. (She is also molting.) I'll have a better idea of her strength and attitude then, and be able to compare her status to the way the bird I lost last month acted at the same stage. I am going to feel really stupid involving these experts and all of you if this turns out to be nothing at all!


I think it is something because the baytril is working. You might invest in a hand feeding spoon.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

And miss out on all the fun of wearing EXACT?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kippermom said:


> And miss out on all the fun of wearing EXACT?


LOL...LOL... Yes!


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*ovary issues???hysterectomy experience??*

Dr. Brian Speer conducted a phone consult with my vet last night to discuss and try to diagnose "April"...our young listless hen. The good news..He is almost certain it is not contagious and not heart failure or defect. The bad news is that he is still not certain what it is...thinking ovary/duct/reproductive issue as a possibility. He is reviewing the xrays again, looking for egg impaction etc... and having another consult in a day or two...may suggest more or different tests. Hysterectomy was suggested as a possibility...$1,000+ cost... does anyone have experience with a hysterectomy in their pigeon??? Other suggestions? (She has no leg issues which I think somestimes comes with egg-bound etc...)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm no vet, but that feels extreme at this point.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have a hen who had a hystrectomy three years ago and she is doing great. It is not an easy surgery and she had a complication a few months later, maybe related to the hysterectomy, she prolapsed. That was also solved with surgery but since then she had no other complications

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kippermom said:


> Dr. Brian Speer conducted a phone consult with my vet last night to discuss and try to diagnose "April"...our young listless hen. The good news..He is almost certain it is not contagious and not heart failure or defect. The bad news is that he is still not certain what it is...thinking ovary/duct/reproductive issue as a possibility. He is reviewing the xrays again, looking for egg impaction etc... and having another consult in a day or two...may suggest more or different tests. Hysterectomy was suggested as a possibility...$1,000+ cost... does anyone have experience with a hysterectomy in their pigeon??? Other suggestions? (She has no leg issues which I think somestimes comes with egg-bound etc...)


Our member, feral pigeon has had nothing but good things to say about Dr. Speers, also another past member here, uses this vet and he does have a bird that had a hysterectomy done by this vet.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

*An answer at last?*

Well Dr. Speers looked at the same xrays that my vet here took and Dr. Speers did not feel that the heart and liver were enlarged...he thought there was an excess of grit in the crop and gizzard...maybe made the bird uncomfortable and get off her feed for a few days. I am to finish the baytril course just in case then test her back in the loft to see if she has "normalized"....neither vet sees any signs of infectious disease or a risk to the rest of the flock. I guess this is good news? She is eating and pooping normally. I'll be watching her weight for the next ten days and if that looks good, return her to the loft for a trial run.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

kippermom said:


> Dr. Brian Speer conducted a phone consult with my vet last night to discuss and try to diagnose "April"...our young listless hen. The good news..He is almost certain it is not contagious and not heart failure or defect. The bad news is that he is still not certain what it is...thinking ovary/duct/reproductive issue as a possibility. He is reviewing the xrays again, looking for egg impaction etc... and having another consult in a day or two...may suggest more or different tests. Hysterectomy was suggested as a possibility...$1,000+ cost... *does anyone have experience with a hysterectomy in their pigeon???* Other suggestions? (She has no leg issues which I think somestimes comes with egg-bound etc...)


Yeah, some:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

Pidgey


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