# Need advice about breeding in the winter



## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

In september we rescued a female pigeon from the side of the road.We became very attached to her, and when we located the owner he agreed to let us keep her. We built her a loft and her previous owner gave us a mate for her. We have had them together for about a month and last week she layed 2 eggs. I was very excited, but I noticed she wasn't sitting on them.Finally yesterday she began to incubate the eggs. My worry is that during the time she wasn't sitting on them we had a couple days of very cold nights.Cold enough that the water in their bowl had frozen.Does anyone know if the eggs will still hatch?How long does it normally take for eggs to hatch and what do I need to do if they don't hatch in that given amount of time?
Thanks for any suggestions!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Maranda, welcome to Pigeon Talk!

First off, thank you for taking in this rescue. It is very easy to become attached to pigeons.It takes a couple of days in some cases for the hen and the mate to sit on them. If she is sitting on them now, the process should resume normally. The hens will sit on the egggs for at l two to three weeks before they abandon them. 

The first one should hatch around the 19th day, followed in a day or so by the second one. Generally they produce a male and female.

After the 7th day you can hold the egg up to a candle or flashlight (called candleing) and you should see veins through the egg.

Please do provide some calcium grit for the parents, especially the hen to help her through this period. 

The poops will be quite prolific and even have an odor to them, so do not be alarmed. 

Is your loft away from the north wind?

What other protection do you have from the weather and moisture?


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

Thanks for your reply! Our loft is facing away from the north winds. We built the loft using the redrose loft plans, making it bigger. So far it has stayed dry and draft free. We are using the red grit, not sure if it has calcium. I remember reading somewhere that you could crush eggs shells and give it to them. Would you recommend doing this to give them extra calcium?

Also, I worry if the eggs do hatch will the babies stay warm enough. We are unable to provide a heat lamp because the loft is too far away from our house to use extension cords. I have game them lots of hay in the nesting box, I hope it keeps them warm. We were not completely prepared for babies, we were told our hen would not likely lay this time of year.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Well first off the birds dont sit on the egg for the first day so that the eggs hatch around the same time. Second, you shouldn't be letting them clutch this late in the year. the best time to have a clutch is during late-summer early-fall. We do this so that all of the birds loose there feathers all at the same time. Usually around late-July. So take my advice not only does it through there insides off but it will greatly decrease there chance to live in such a cold environment.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Matt is right. It is rather late in the season to have babies, but what is done is done. If you want to help them along, if you and your husband don't mind, would be to bring them inside while they have their babies...or get one of the long heavy duty cords as I have leading to the coop outdoors. I got mine last year for around 30.00, and it comes in handy for not only winter heating but for cleaning the coop as well with our wet dry vac.

Another option would be to get them some dummy eggs now and discard the eggs *NOW* before the life cycle begins. Once they start laying eggs there is almost no stopping pigeons, so if it is a family you want to start, there is no problem there.

Now, as far as the calcium grit, I use a standard grey Hi-Cal grit made by Kay-tee, as can be found at most pet stores. I use the red type as well, but do alternated the grit, especially with my females.


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

Thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to wait the 7 days and check the eggs for veins. If the eggs look good I will make some arrangements for the babies to stay warm. If they are no good I will swap them with dummy eggs. 

I don't want to seperate the birds, as of now we only have 2 and I don't want them to be alone. Would the use of dummy eggs keep them from breeding during the winter?
Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I'm doing everything right!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

maranda said:


> Thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to wait the 7 days and check the eggs for veins. If the eggs look good I will make some arrangements for the babies to stay warm. If they are no good I will swap them with dummy eggs.
> 
> I don't want to seperate the birds, as of now we only have 2 and I don't want them to be alone. Would the use of dummy eggs keep them from breeding during the winter?
> Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I'm doing everything right!


Hi Maranda, You may either dispose of them now, soon after being laid, and no life will be lost. I can fully understand you not wanting them alone. Placing dummy eggs will prolong the time in between egg bearing, and this will also keep the female from losing as much calcium from her system as well.Please don't be sorry for questions. We are here to help.


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## Jazicat (Oct 31, 2005)

I have a mated pair of pigeons that we use dummy eggs with. As soon as the second egg is laid we replace them so we don't have any babies. They don't seem to notice and go through the incubation period then abandon the eggs. So far this has worked very well.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I've had they lay and raise babies in the icy cold dead of winter. And boy did I worry. But it turned out fine...though I often felt sorry for that bald little thing in its nest  You can leave the eggs till the parents give up, too, even if you don't see veins etc. that way they might not be inspired to lay more!


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

If You Only Have The Mated Pair. Then Both the Male And Female Would Need To Come Inside With The Babys. Both Parents Care/Feed For The Young. If You Want the Babys This Time A Year The Safe Way Is To Bring Them Inside Where Its Warm.


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

*4 eggs!*

Today I went out to see the birds and discovered 2 more eggs!Could this be because the first 2 eggs were no good? Also, what will happen if the first set of eggs hatch?will she abandon the second set of eggs?What if all 4 eggs hatch, will the parents be able to provide food for all the babies?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

maranda said:


> Today I went out to see the birds and discovered 2 more eggs!Could this be because the first 2 eggs were no good? Also, what will happen if the first set of eggs hatch?will she abandon the second set of eggs?What if all 4 eggs hatch, will the parents be able to provide food for all the babies?


That would usually indicate that you have two hens .. both of which have laid two eggs. If that is the case then none of the eggs are fertile and will not/cannot hatch.

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Terry is right, you probably have two females. The only way they'd hatch in that case is if there was a very cocky little male that has topped and fertilized both. If that was true, I'd go ahead and discard two of the eggs now since 4 babies would overload the parents.

And about the raising this time of year.
There really isn't a right or wrong time of year to start raising. Everyone has their own time when they like to raise, whether it is winter and fall, or spring and summer. Some even raise year round. Personally, I just go with it. If they are willing to raise, I let them. Currently I do not race or show, so I have no big reason to split them up for long periods of time. Every once in a while I'll notice the babies aren't turning out how I'd like, and I'll split them up and re-mate them. My pigeons slow down during the cold months which is good, they need a rest. We had some predator problems during the summer, so they just now got around to start laying again. I've got 4 pair of homers on babies right now, and a pair of rollers also. I actually find it easier to raise when the weather cools off. The reason being, there's a lot more stress in the summer here. The hot weather...more animals are active and ready to upset my pigeons...hard to keep water in the drinkers all the time (it seems like they went through two gallons a day). In the winter time, they may need more food to keep their own body weight and temperature up, but I already feed them 2 or 3 times a day anyways, and they don't drink much water in the cold months...so it just seems easier. The medicine stays fresh longer, the birds seem more awake...not to mention they love to fly in cool weather! I don't know about you, but most of our sicknesses down here love the hot weather. Less sickness = less medication need. Medication can cause stress!


Like I said, it all depends on where you live, your own busy schedule (like students who have more time in the summer), and just what you do in your hobby. Even if you race your breeding times are different depending on whether you race young birds or old.

Honestly, in your case Maranda, I think as long as your birds are happy and healthy, everything will be fine  If you don't want to let them raise in the winter, so be it! It's all up to you


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

When I seen 4 eggs I thought we could have 2 females.We called the guy we got the second bird from, who has been raising pigeons for years, and he insists it is a male. The bird also looks and acts like a male.


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

I just went and checked the eggs with a flashlight.In 2 of the eggs I did see what looked like red veins, in 1 it was more noticeable than the other. The other 2 new eggs didn't have that. This is my first time of candeling eggs, but having the others to compare helped me to know what I was looking for.If what I saw was veins, I have a male and female with 4 eggs. Now the problem. Maryofexeter suggested of disgarding 2 of the eggs because it would be hard for 1 set of parents to care for 4 babies. But, the 2nd set of eggs has been incubated since thursday evening or Friday morning. So if those eggs are fertile hasn't the life cycle already began? If all 4 eggs are fertile will the hen continue to incubate the unhatched eggs once the first set hatch?I don't like the idea of disgarding any of the eggs, if life has already started to grow, but I would feel worse if the eggs were a few days away from hatching and the parents abandon them. Anyone have any suggestions that would help me make a decision?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

maranda said:


> I just went and checked the eggs with a flashlight.In 2 of the eggs I did see what looked like red veins, in 1 it was more noticeable than the other. The other 2 new eggs didn't have that. This is my first time of candeling eggs, but having the others to compare helped me to know what I was looking for.If what I saw was veins, I have a male and female with 4 eggs. Now the problem. Maryofexeter suggested of disgarding 2 of the eggs because it would be hard for 1 set of parents to care for 4 babies. But, the 2nd set of eggs has been incubated since thursday evening or Friday morning. So if those eggs are fertile hasn't the life cycle already began? If all 4 eggs are fertile will the hen continue to incubate the unhatched eggs once the first set hatch?I don't like the idea of disgarding any of the eggs, if life has already started to grow, but I would feel worse if the eggs were a few days away from hatching and the parents abandon them. Anyone have any suggestions that would help me make a decision?



I'm trying to come up with a time line here........... 
You've got two eggs from over a week ago and two eggs that you found yesterday? Are all of these eggs in the same bowl/basket?
Ok.......first of all, hens don't lay a second set of eggs while they are sitting on a set, so that's not the case. Second of all, you only have the two birds, correct? My only conclusion to all of this is as follows........either you DO have two hens and the "veins" that you are "seeing" are not veins at all. There ARE hens that will act like a cock and fool you. Even the most experienced fanciers have been fooled.
OR.........the FIRST two eggs DID freeze and are no good and she laid a second set in the same nest.......however, if the eggs were JUST laid in the past couple of days, you would not be seeing veins...........
I'm really a little confused about how all of this has happened...........
My first suggestion to you would be to toss all of the eggs and give them two dummies and start over again, but without seeing the "veins", I can't honestly say to do that.,...so I guess my next suggestion would be to keep the two eggs WITH veins and throw out the other two. If the second two eggs are clear, then there is no life inside them. IF these eggs hatch by some miracle, with the cold weather, two babies is all that the parents should have to take care. That in itsself is hard on them. IF by some chance the second eggs are good, then they wouldn't hatch at the same time and in the end, you would loose two babies............safer for all involved to discard two of the eggs and see what happens..........
Maybe someone else can "wrap their brain around this" and come up with some other ideas.........


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Maybe the second bird just acts like a boy but is actually a hen. And prehaps it was fertilized before you got her? And then, since it acted like the boy of the pair, the female you had laid eggs, which were infertile, while the "boy" laid hers which were fertilized? Just kinda going off on a big limb here. It's possible isn't it? If I were you, I'd just throw away the empty ones and see what happens with the others. I don't see any harm in letting them sit on the eggs with, what may be, viens in them.


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

Actually I discovered the 2nd set of eggs Friday evening,which makes them 2-3 days old. The first set of eggs have been incubated since the 17th of November, but they were laid around the 12th. I have looked at pictures of eggs taken while candling, and they looked the same as the 1st set of eggs.How early will the veins appear? Mabey the veined eggs are really the newest eggs. I'm going to check them again tomorrow since doing some research on candling I think I know exactly what to look for.

All 4 eggs are in the same basket. This is the hens first eggs, mabey she's just confused! I know I am!
Thanks for everyones help!
Maranda


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Maybe the second bird just acts like a boy but is actually a hen. And prehaps it was fertilized before you got her? And then, since it acted like the boy of the pair, the female you had laid eggs, which were infertile, while the "boy" laid hers which were fertilized? Just kinda going off on a big limb here. *It's possible isn't it?* If I were you, I'd just throw away the empty ones and see what happens with the others. I don't see any harm in letting them sit on the eggs with, what may be, viens in them.



Yes, it's possible. I've had that happen......except in this case, these birds have been together for a month before the eggs (first eggs) were laid, so don't think that's the case here. I'll be curious to see how this ends.


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Maybe the second bird just acts like a boy but is actually a hen. And prehaps it was fertilized before you got her? And then, since it acted like the boy of the pair, the female you had laid eggs, which were infertile, while the "boy" laid hers which were fertilized? Just kinda going off on a big limb here. It's possible isn't it? If I were you, I'd just throw away the empty ones and see what happens with the others. I don't see any harm in letting them sit on the eggs with, what may be, viens in them.


I also thought of that possibilty,but we have had the boy since mid October and he was by himself a few days before we picked him up. Would a female wait that long to lays eggs?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

maranda said:


> Actually I discovered the 2nd set of eggs Friday evening,which makes them 2-3 days old. The first set of eggs have been incubated since the 17th of November, but they were laid around the 12th. I have looked at pictures of eggs taken while candling, and they looked the same as the 1st set of eggs.How early will the veins appear? Mabey the veined eggs are really the newest eggs. I'm going to check them again tomorrow since doing some research on candling I think I know exactly what to look for.
> 
> All 4 eggs are in the same basket. This is the hens first eggs, mabey she's just confused! I know I am!
> Thanks for everyones help!
> Maranda


WE ARE ALL CONFUSED!!! LOL
If the first eggs have been sat on since the 17th, that would put them at 8 days of incubation and the fact that they were laid on the 12th really has no bearing on a hatch date. *IF* they weren't sitting on them those first few days. Seems to me that what you are seeing (the veins) are in the FIRST two eggs laid. They are about where they should be as far as growing for 8 days old. I'm still not sure about the second eggs, but can only surmise, that with this being the hens first time laying........she was just a little confused about what's going on. If I was you...........I would discard those second set of eggs right away. It will be near impossible for these two birds to raise 4 babies. If you keep waiting and they keep sitting on the eggs, eventually you're going to start seeing the veins and will not want to throw out the eggs. It would really be best to throw them away ASAP and forget about them. Nature never intended for pigeons to raise more than one set of babies. 
With the time difference in when they were laid, the second babies would never survive. Best to let them go BEFORE they DO become a real baby pigeon.  
How much reading have you done on baby pigeons and the whole process? 
Just curious as to what you know. There's a process that they go through and if you understand that process, it will make more sense to you as to why you should remove the last two eggs.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ohhh...I guess I missed the fact they had been together that long  
This is just a bit confusing...
I have heard of one hen laying 4 eggs before, so maybe yours is just special! 
But yeah you should definitely get rid of two of the eggs. It would be best for both the babies (if they hatch), and the parents. I had a pair somehow end up with four eggs once. Well...they hatched..which surprised me. It was like stairsteps, one was a bit bigger (guessing it was the first to hatch and had already started growing), one was normal sized, one was a little smaller than usual, and one was a little runt. Within a few days the runt had died, then the next in line, and so on until they were all dead. If you end up with 4 babies somehow, there's no way the parents can take care of them all. Someone out of the 4 is always going to be left out when feeding, and even if they all got fed...they wouldn't get enough and they'd _all_ become weak little birds D:
When it came down to the last little baby, the parents were stressed and the little guy just wasn't strong enough.
Of course there's always the option of hand feeding the babies if they all hatch. You could let the parents handle everything but come in and give them the extra food that the parents can't. Orrrr you could try to raise a couple yourself. Either way, it's a lot of work and a lot of time and effort to hand raise them.
It'll be interesting to find out what happens with these mystery eggs


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

I haven't found very much info on babies,I've searched the forum and the web.I do know that the parents feed the babies.I do understand that 4 babies would be too much for the parents.I know my options and need to make a decision soon.

I have read a little about hand raising, but would only want to do that as a last resort.What do you guys think would be the survival rate if 4 babies hatch and I helped the parents with feeding.In a way I want to leave all 4 eggs just to see what will happen,but I know it's probly a bad idea. Well I'm going to try and make a decision tomorrow.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Maranda,

*Do not leave all four eggs in the nest.* Remove the two that were most recently laid and let the pair incubate the older eggs. If all the babies hatched out, the parents won't have pigeon milk for the second batch and they will die. Hand feeding from hatching can be done, but it is very very difficult. You cannot leave all four in the nest because the parent birds will be overly stressed and the likely outcome would be death of the babies and ill parents. It isn't just a matter of you giving them supplemental feedings. You would have to remove them from the nest and do all the raising yourself. That means round the clock feeding at first, keeping them warm etc. One pair of birds just can't handle feeding and raising four babies. After about a week it would be hard for them to even cover them to keep them warm. 

You don't know for sure if you have a pair of hens, in which case there won't be any babies or a hen who laid twice in a short period of time. If she did, then she has had a huge demand on her body for calcium and other nutrients.

Generally it is wise to pull the eggs after the second one is laid and replace them with dummy eggs if you don't want babies. The birds will sit them for about 20 days and then abandon them and start the cycle of laying and sitting again. If you do want babies, then let them sit the two eggs and provide them with a warm draft free place to do it and good nutrition including calcium of some kind. They will have all they need to raise a pair of healthy squeakers which is a delight to watch happen.


Margaret


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

Thanks for everyones replies. I will be removing the newest eggs tomorrow.It would be great if I could find a pair that would foster the eggs, but I guess that would be hard to find and do. I will keep everyone updated on the status of the eggs.Hopefully we'll have our first set of babies.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Check out this link. If you have high speed internet, it will load quickly and is well worth watching. 

http://www.albertaclassic.net/miracle.php

PS: you have to scroll down to the button that says "Go to miracle of life".


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## maranda (Nov 18, 2007)

Thanks for the link! It is very informative and I love the music as the baby comes out of his shell.
Well I went and checked the eggs tonight.I definately see veins.So hopefully we'll have babies soon. 
Just out of curiosity I checked the other eggs again,I didn't see anything, I know they were only 3 or 4 days old, but I don't think they were fertile, well thats what I like to think anyway.They're gone now.
Thanks for everyones advice.I'll keep everyone updated.I can't wait to see what the babies look like.When and if they hatch, I'll post some pictures.


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## BirdDogg10 (Aug 23, 2005)

I heard that song before I think it's called odessey but I'm not sure. anyone know?


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