# Feral pigeon with canker



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hello,

This concerns a sick pigeon in my feral flock. He is a fully adult pigeon, but a young adult, who has feathered feet and is absolutely tiny – 260 gms. He's not skinny, he's just very small. He’s been with the flock for only a couple of months and was very shy initially, but rightly noticed that I have a soft spot for him, so very quickly started eating out of my hand and became confident enough to try to take on every pigeon who’d come near him or me. 

Well, I noticed he is very bald around the beak, but he was feisty, had a great appetite and his droppings looked great, so I didn’t think much of it until one day he came and I noticed there was water dripping out of his beak and he was dropping the seeds he was trying to eat. He’s an extremely avid eater however, so he still left that day with his crop very full. The next day he had a really hard time picking up seeds, he also couldn’t close his mouth completely, so I caught him and sure enough he had quite a sizable yellow nodule inside his lower beak. I started hand feeding him and on Metronidazole 50mg once a day, and by the second dose the nodule was already getting smaller. On the third day it was smaller still and when I was hand feeding him frozen peas it detached by itself without bleeding. So I thought “great”, but noticed that he wasn’t eating by himself when I wasn’t feeding him. Well stupidly enough, I had not really looked carefully enough in his throat, and when I did with a flashlight, I saw two more yellow growths, one of which was kind of brownish. His poop looked perfect from the beginning and still looks fine. His crop empties in good time and his breath smells fine. I could take him to a pigeon rehabber for a more thorough check up and also to ask for Spartrix or Rodinazole, but I don’t want to stress him if I don’t have to, as he has taken very badly to being caged as it is (he’s in a good sized guinea pig/rabbit cage). 

He has been on metronidazole for 6 days now, so I’d like to ask whether I should continue it as it seems to be working, or try to obtain another zole, as I’ve heard that treating with two different ones is recommended to eradicate the organism completely and avoid resistance.

As always, all your feedback is eagerly anticipated and gratefully accepted.

Many thanks,
Eva


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I would continue with the Metronidazole until 10 days, even if it clears before that. I would see no value in switching or using something else concurrently if the meds are doing their job. 

I remember a case we had where Spartrix alone did not resolve the problem, and we used Metronidazole along with it. I believe it was simply that Carnidazole just wasn't effective enough against a really tough case of Canker.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Eva,

I agree as John says, continue for a lot longer with the Metrodoniazole. Canker can be very stubborn.
I don't know what anyone else thinks about giving something else like Baytril just in case he has a secondary infection of some kind going on.
I have given Spartrix previously when I hadn't got Flagyl but it doesn't seem to tackle the canker as well as Flagyl so I'd definitely keep that going for at least 10/14 days.

Janet


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Hello,
> 
> This concerns a sick pigeon in my feral flock. He is a fully adult pigeon, but a young adult, who has feathered feet and is absolutely tiny – 260 gms. He's not skinny, he's just very small. He’s been with the flock for only a couple of months and was very shy initially, but rightly noticed that I have a soft spot for him, so very quickly started eating out of my hand and became confident enough to try to take on every pigeon who’d come near him or me.
> 
> ...



I would say 10 to 14 days. how did you catch the bird if he is in a feral flock.?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thank you all for the quick replies. I'll stay with the metronidazole as you say for 14 days. 

Another question: I was wondering if I need to give probiotics after that course like with other antibiotics. Not sure but I think I remember most beneficial flora being aerobic, while metronidazole is absorbed by anaerobes and protozoans, right? Or should I just do it anyway since it can't hurt?

Amyable, I too was also wondering about the Baytril, but other than the canker he seems fine, and he's just such a tiny bird, I don't want to medicate him unless he really needs it, so I've been holding off for the moment.



spirit wings said:


> how did you catch the bird if he is in a feral flock.?


I've been feeding the same flock of pigeons at my window for a while now, and most eat out of my hand and do not mind being touched, so catching anyone of them is no problem at all. I should have caught this one earlier.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva,

Good on you for catching this little one and noticing the canker! She sounds so cute and pretty I agree with the others that it sounds like metronidazole is the right medicine for it, and you are doing great. With bad canker, I've sometimes needed a full two weeks to clear it up, but it does clear up in the end thankfully.

This may or may not apply to your flock, but every pigeon I've helped with bad canker in the past year also had a worm infestation, especially the smaller birds. Worm infestations can be deceptive ,too, in that the droppings can look perfect. Anyway it wouldn't hurt to give your bird a safe wormer in a few days time, if she looks healthy and on the mend.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Just to say if a bird had a case of canker and it went away in a few days continue the medication because the virus might still be there as it is weakened. If you medicate it and stop and it comes back it could be possible that it developed an immunity to that medication because you have treated it and it was still there so this could happen. Not sure as I had not dealt with canker before in pigeons.

Lucas


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I had a bird with canker that took 14 days to totally clear. It sometimes takes a while. Metronidazole usually works really well for me.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks for that info Bella, I was wondering about worming too. Now I'll definitely worm him /her. Some pigeons in my flock eat quite little - about 50 grams of seeds, while others consume their weight daily in food. All look healthy, but I don't know what to make of that - is it simply an individual difference or could it be due to worms. This little one is one of those who just eat and eat and eat. He's not emaciated, but is quite lean. 

Any recommendations for a gentle but effective wormer?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,

Worms are pretty normal with the wild ones but they seem to get better at managing them as they get older for some reason. I have a few here that I wormed as sick young adults several years ago and they are still doing well in the wild, so I expect it is worth worming them even if they get re-exposed to worm eggs. 

There's a few good, safe, wormers to choose from, fortunately. I personally normally use Moxidectin because its the only wormer that doesn't put them off their food or make them feel like throwing up. Its regarded as a more advanced version of Ivermectin (also a good wormer), with better effectiveness. I get it from a local Avian Vet. Moxidectin (like Ivermectin) is interesting in that you can apply the wormer externally instead of internally and it works just as well (going on personal experience), and unlike most wormers it takes care of external parasites.

I've also used Levimisole, Praziquantel, and combinations of those on very sick birds. They were excellent and effective.

Theres a lovely member here named Msfreebird who uses pyrantal palmonate. She says its very gentle and safe. I bought some from my local drugstore, but haven't used it yet.

PS. How is she looking today?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thank you for all this very useful information, Bella.

The little one was very happy to spend most of today out of his cage in the company of the other pigeons on the other side of the window. I did notice some sneezing throughout the day today, but I'll wait till tomorrow before getting officially worried. He can pick up seeds without a problem now, but I still hand feed him once a day, to make sure he's not staying hungry. I’m not sure it’s necessary, but he’s such a tiny pigeon that I’m afraid he can starve very quickly if he’s not eating enough by himself. I’ll do the worming in a few days – maybe that will help to put some weight on him too.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Well it’s been day 11 of metronidazole treatment and the canker is still not completely gone, but little Jetty eats on his own quite well. 

He gets very bored/depressed in his cage and even had me worried, because he was being so uninterested in anything. The only time he comes alive in his cage is when I scratch his head, which he very diligently turns to make sure no spot is missed. So now I cage him only at night and when I'm not there, because once he's out, he’s a different pigeon - he goes flying around and exploring everywhere, pecks at everything and generally behaves like a baby. I finally figured out why he keeps overturning his water bowl several times a day – he’s trying to take a bath. I gave him a bath dish and he immediately jumped in. I couldn’t resist taking some pictures. I wasn’t keen on him bathing, with all the sneezing I’ve been hearing even during the night, but I warmed the room to 80F and he’s actually been sneezing less today. 

On Monday I’ll take him to the pigeon rehab people to check his canker after the 14 days of metronidazole and to get a wormer as Bella suggested. 

Here are some pictures of Jetty in all his bald glory, pre and post bath.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh, how cute. Bet he loved his bath.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

He really did - he stayed in the water for 15 minutes, came out then went back in again. The previous pigeon I was looking after had no interest in taking baths at all, which is why I didn't think to offer this one a bath earlier.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its so nice he feels well enough to bath This does seem to be a stubborn case of canker....are the nodules not quite disappearing , something like that?


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> Its so nice he feels well enough to bath This does seem to be a stubborn case of canker....are the nodules not quite disappearing , something like that?


Well enough AND comfortable enough, many other pigeons would be just too afraid to take a bath in a strange place where these huge creatures are watching them. 

If the canker isn't totally gone after 14 days, maybe you should switch to another medication, if possible?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jedd's sells a product called Ronsec, which is Ronidazole and Secnidazole. It is supposed to be for stubborn canker cases. You give 1 on day one, then again on day 3. I haven't used it yet, so don't know how good it is.

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?category=ALL&keyword=Ronsec&no=1046&searchpath=12327399


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Canker has become more resistant to all the drugs we have become accustomed to using.I have had good results with metronidazole too but there have been times when I have had to use both metronidazole and spartrex to get the canker under control. What I do if there is a lot of canker in the mouth and throat, is make a thin paste, out of the spartrex and very gently, so has not to dislodge and of the canker nodules,paint the nodules with the spartrex. It does make a big difference.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Canker has become more resistant to all the drugs we have become accustomed to using.I have had good results with metronidazole too but there have been times when I have had to use both metronidazole and spartrex to get the canker under control. What I do if there is a lot of canker in the mouth and throat, is make a thin paste, out of the spartrex and very gently, so has not to dislodge and of the canker nodules,paint the nodules with the spartrex. It does make a big difference.



Can you do that with the Metronidazole as well?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay, I never have but next time I see a severe case I'll try it, although I hope I never see another severe case. I hate canker.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Just to add to Jays and Charis's excellent advice, I used to use Ronidazole (what Jay3 suggested) exclusively and found it to be highly effective. I ran out about a year ago and have used fishzole (metronidazole) & spartrix since.

For some reason the last three sick pigeons that I gave Spartrix to for clearing up stubborn canker , after a course of metronidazole , caused the birds to regurgitate...I was giving half a tablet. So perhaps the trick is to make a paste (or suspension?), like Charis suggested. 

In one case the regurgitation caused the pigeon to go downhill fast , even though I was hand feeding it, and it died. In retrospect, I discovered that this bird had pox as well as canker though. 

I therefore wonder if stubborn cases of canker can also be caused (ie apart from resistance to meds) by another illnesses which compromise the immune system, such as the bad worm infestations I discovered, or a Virus? It makes sense to me that canker would take advantage of other , less apparent or visible problems like that. Just a thought anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have great luck with the Metronidazole, which is what Fish Zole is. Other illnesses can cause the bird to come down with canker, but if it weren't resistant to a particular drug, you could knock it down. Bella, maybe they have been too far gone when you found them? Without tests and cultures, you don't always know what the bird is carrying. And if given a couple of drops of Pepto before the Metronidazole, it will usually keep the bird from vomiting, which can cause aspiration.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, maybe they have been too far gone when you found them? Without tests and cultures, you don't always know what the bird is carrying. And if given a couple of drops of Pepto before the Metronidazole, it will usually keep the bird from vomiting, which can cause aspiration.


Hey Jay,
I haven't had any issues with the Metronidazole (fishzole ) so far, just the Spartrix. The frustrating thing is the regurgitation occurred when the birds had been on the mend (so I thought), but I had changed meds from metronidazole to spartrix because the canker wasn't clearing up quickly, like it can do in some cases. I think next time I'll try what Charis suggested, with the paste. For some reason birds just aren't tolerating it in tablet form like they perhaps should, and regurgitation really scares me- lie you said, it can cause aspiration, or just start a cycle of more regurgitation that can kill them.

I don't think we get anything like Pepto Bismo here in Australia (not sure) but I'd try it if we did. It sounds like it helps a lot from what you and Charis have said in the past.

You're right, too , that I can never know what I'm dealing with exactly without tests. But thankfully I do successfully treat a huge amount of wild pigeons with the shotgun technique. For me, this is a combination of antibiotic/canker med/cocci med/wormer.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hey Jay,
> I haven't had any issues with the Metronidazole (fishzole ) so far, just the Spartrix. The frustrating thing is the regurgitation occurred when the birds had been on the mend (so I thought), but I had changed meds from metronidazole to spartrix because the canker wasn't clearing up quickly, like it can do in some cases. I think next time I'll try what Charis suggested, with the paste. For some reason birds just aren't tolerating it in tablet form like they perhaps should, and regurgitation really scares me- lie you said, it can cause aspiration, or just start a cycle of more regurgitation that can kill them.
> 
> I don't think we get anything like Pepto Bismo here in Australia (not sure) but I'd try it if we did. It sounds like it helps a lot from what you and Charis have said in the past.
> ...



Sometimes I think they have just gone too long by the time you get them. Have you tried Spartrix and Metronidazole together? Must be something there like pepto. Don't know.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thank you all for the good feedback.

If on Monday - day14, there is still something visible is his mouth, I’ll do as Jondove says, and try another of the zoles.

The one nodule at the back of the throat that looked kind of brownish is now gone, but the other one which is deeper into his throat almost out of sight is not completely gone. And who knows what else there is deeper in his throat where I cannot see at all. He also had another yellow nodule in his lower beak under his tongue, which was preventing him from closing his mouth fully and using his tongue properly – that’s why he couldn’t pick up seed. It is now very, very small and not preventing him from eating, but is not completely gone either. He also had a lot of mucus in his mouth when I first picked him up and for several days after that, and that’s now gone too. 

The day before yesterday, he regurgitated 17 out of the 45 peas I had fed him. I don’t know if it’s the metronidazole or I overfed him. It’s the first time he’s done that. Yesterday he was looking very good – ate well on his own, bathed, (and naturally I was very happy and bragged to you all immediately), but today he wasn’t interested in bathing and didn’t eat much either. He was sneezing quite a lot, but hasn’t sneezed for the last two days, and shows no respiratory symptoms, and since I saw a post by Charis who had written that a canker infection can cause sneezing, I’m putting it down to that. Thanks Charis for the suggestion to make a paste and apply directly to the nodules. I’ll try it with the metronidazole until I can get Spartrix. I’ll take him to the rehab people, to ask for Ronsec as per Jay3’s suggestion, and to have him wormed as Bella recommended.

Bella, I also wonder about your point that there could be something else contributing to his immune system being so down that it’s not fighting off the canker. I saw the following on a UK Pigeon and Dove rescue site: “…..Yellow growths in the body or in the very front of the beak are not likely to be canker.”

Well, one of these growths is in the front of the beak but inside under the tongue, so can it be something else? It did respond quickly to the Flagyl, but is not completely gone. 

BTW, can you give Flagyl and Spartrix together?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. Some have given them together. I would give them at different times though. Space them Giving the Flagyl in the morning, and the Spartrix at night would be better maybe, as you have to pull the water for a couple of hours anyway with the Spartrix.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the update Eva,

If it were me personally, I would not give the Spartrix with the metronidazole when he's already regurgitating, because of my poor experiences with doing this (and I was only using a half tablet). Like I mentioned earlier, this caused regurgitation and whilst two survived the regurgitation of the Spartrix, it was touch and go for a couple of days (and the third one deteriorated and died). 

Of the two that survived, they both had bad worm infestations, which can also cause regurgitation. So I tend to conclude that the worms caused both the slow response to canker treatment and the regurgitation, rather than resistance to metronidazole. The worms involved were round worms (very badly infested) and tape worms in one of them.One had seed in its droppings (the one with tape worms).

There's really only one way to know without doing tests- if the bird is not too thin & sick, then you can worm it carefully, or you can try a different canker med first. There's no way of knowing which is the best route unfortunately. I can only suggest what worked for me.

PS. Eva, regarding other causes of those lesions in the mouth, pox and sometimes yeast can look similar. But these are much more rare compared to canker. Yeast looks more whiteish usually, and pox is usually on the feet and around the eyes. So you could probably rule them out as likely causes.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Bella, did you find the ronidazole to be more gentle than the Spartrix when it comes to regurgitation?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well actually, Metronidazole will cause regurgitation much more so than Spartrix. And if given a couple of drops of Pepto first, that usually takes care of it. Many have used both together and had better results. Bella, you can't be sure why yours were regurgitating. Could have been from anything. And canker or yeast, which is also fairly common, will both cause regurgitation.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The application of metronidazole and spartrex is very important so as to avoid vomiting.
*Spartrex doesn't cause vomiting* but *metronidazole can especially if given on a crop that is empty or has little food in it.* It is important to give spartex on a full crop and with hold water for at least 2 hours after. I always give spartrex just before turning out the lights at night.
I use a coated metronidazole, that in most cases eliminates the side effect of vomiting. It's called Meditrich, made by Medpet and is one of the staples I always have on hand.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.birdvet.com.au/exotics care/birdcare/Bird Facts 2 Trichomoniasis.htm


1. What is Trichomoniasis?

Trichomoniasis is a disease caused by a microscopic motile (moving) protozoa called trichomonas.

2. Where are trichomonads usually found?

Trichomonads are usually found in the crop, mouth, pharynx or trachea.

Other sites include the lungs and the liver.

3. What is the route of transmission?

The protozoa are transmitted by direct mouth to mouth contact between two birds or in contaminated water and food.

There is no aerosol transmission. There is no resistant cyst form so trichomonas does not survive in the environment for long periods.

4. What are the clinical signs of Trichomoniasis?

*Vomiting and regurgitation*
Weight loss with increased appetite - birdsoften select the smallest seed to eat as it is less painful
White plaques and/or cheesy material in the crop and trachea
Being "fluffed up"
Green diarrhoea
Dyspnoea
Poor growth in young birds


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Bella, did you find the ronidazole to be more gentle than the Spartrix when it comes to regurgitation?


Hi Eva,

Yes I did, it was a highly effective medicine for canker and I'd personally purchase it instead of Spartrix. Spartrix is mostly intended to be used as a `one pill canker preventative' for fanciers who have many healthy pigeons already. Its strength is you just give each pigeon one pill instead of days of treatment in water- which is a much better way of managing canker prevention in large lofts of racing pigeons. On this forum, from everything I've read over the years, its known to be less effective for very bad canker in ferals. Thats why its only suggested as a last resort if the `better' drugs don't work.

Regarding regurgitation, I've never had any regurgitation issues with metronidazole (fishzole) or ronidazole( ronivet/ronsec). Just to give you an idea, I have 12 cages here always full with sick pigeons, so I use metronidazole daily on multiple birds, without needing to pay attention to the crop being full or withholding water. Its very gentle and you can mix it with antibiotics. When I've administered Spartrix, I have always given half pill doses, on its own and it causes regurgitation.

Like I said much earlier in the thread, I do believe that the way the drug is administered could be why I have these results. I've noticed that members who give pills that are quartered or halved to their birds have more issues with regurgitation, whether it be metronidazole or Spartrix. I was taught to administer canker meds differently to that-I crush the pill and mix it with maple syrup, so its dosed as a suspension. Also, some members tend to give very high doses of metronidazole, 50-200mg per pigeon, whereas I use conservative doses around 10mg twice day. Overdosing will of course add to regurgitation problems.

So having had rather consistent bad experiences with Spartrix on very sick ferals , I'd use the Ronidazole over Spartrix if I had the choice. But with my healthy pet pigeons who are fat racing pigeons & King Pigeons, I'd happily use Spartrix as a preventative. Just IMO anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella, not to be argumentative, but I've never heard of anyone giving 50 to 200 mg. of Metronidazole. An adult bird would get about 50, and a squeaker about half that amount. And many have had birds vomit with the Metronidazole. Although it does work lots better than the Spartrix. And yes, the directions for the Spartrix say one pill to each bird, but anyone who has kept birds for any amount of time knows to give it for 3 to 5 days. One day does nothing.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay, I find it helpful to hear other information, and to try to figure out why experiences differ. 

Like I said 50mg of metronidazole per bird, per day, is over twice what I give personally. As we've discussed previously, I dose according to the Avian formulary from the University of Denver: 

http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html#Metronidazole

It states there that the dosage for metronidazole is 50-60mg per KG, not 50-60mg per bird. 

I realise you use a different formulary, the one at pigeoncote. I've looked at it and I don't trust it, because all dosages are stated as mg per bird. This is not the format of Avian formularies and its easy to see there was mistake made in transcribing that document IMO.

However, in other Avian formularies it has been stated that up to 200mg of metronidazole can be given once off for certain conditions. But you're not supposed to give these high doses- 50mg or up to 200mg- every day for weeks on end. At least not without Veterninary advice and not with extremely emaciated ferals with other possible illnesses as well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

We don't just go by the source you mentioned. This is information given by vets. And taken from the formulary prepared by the Association of Pigeon Veterinarians. They are very knowledgeable and know what they are prescribing. Under dosing can hurt more than it can help. 

Metronidazole (Flagyl): 25-50 mg per pigeon per day - 1250-2500 mg per gallon (4 liters) for 4-6 days.

Gordon A Chalmers, DVM

(Taken from Formulary prepared by the Association of Pigeon Veterinarians)
Special thanks to:
David E. Marx, D.V.M.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

But what weight pigeon are these dosages for? Pigeons can weigh anywhere from 150 grams up to 1 kg, and medicine dosages for pigeons are calibrated for weight. So `per bird' dosing doesn't fit with how most Vets and formularies prescribe medicine.

The emaciated ferals that I take in weight 180 grams to 250 grams. That's why i am conservative with dosing, and it works ie. they get well and don't regurgitate during treatment.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Metronidazole has quite a safety margin. For an average adult feral, you could give the 50 mg. For a squeaker or emaciated adult who weighs half that, you would give half that amount. That's why the dosage is from about 25 to 50 mg. And as I said before, there is a wide enough safety margin with it to be able to do that. I have had cases of canker that in giving such a low dose, it wouldn't cure the canker. But whatever works for you, then that is fine. I don't normally have a problem with regurgitation, but if I did, I would give the bird a couple of drops of Pepto, and that would take care of it. Often the bird is regurgitating because it has canker, and not from the med.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here's a thread you might find helpful.

http://www.pigeonangels.com/t1780p15-squeaker-with-missing-eye


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Jay, Yes, it does sound good like that- the safety margin sounds very broad.

The birds I treat are from the tropics so they are light compared to birds where it snows in the winter. They are lighter still because of sickness...most are emaciated with a very sharp keep bone. But if they weighed around 400 grams like the average racing pigeon, does, the dosages you gave would fit well with that.

Do you reckon the dose you gave above would be for a pigeon around 400 grams, or what is average adult pigeon weight in your area, do you know? It sounds like what you're doing is working well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella, I'd say an adult feral around here is probably between 350 and 400 grams. If the bird is smaller than that, or weighs less then I would adjust the dose. That has worked here.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Here's a thread you might find helpful.
> 
> http://www.pigeonangels.com/t1780p15-squeaker-with-missing-eye


Good link Charis. I remember that thread. It was amazing how he pulled him through that.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I meant to thank you Charis as well for the great thread- its really helpful. I soak up everything you you post. From what I got from the thread, you helped the OP make a paste of Spartrix and then Metronidazole which worked very well, and they followed up with Ronidazole because it was a really bad case, and external too.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks everyone for this wealth of useful information.



Charis said:


> The application of metronidazole and spartrex is very important so as to avoid vomiting.
> *Spartrex doesn't cause vomiting* but *metronidazole can especially if given on a crop that is empty or has little food in it.* It is important to give spartex on a full crop and with hold water for at least 2 hours after. I always give spartrex just before turning out the lights at night.
> I use a coated metronidazole, that in most cases eliminates the side effect of vomiting. It's called Meditrich, made by Medpet and is one of the staples I always have on hand.


I was giving him the metro with food for the last 13 days and he regurgitated only once, and since then I started giving him the metronidazole on a empty crop, because I assumed it would be easier for him to regurgitate the pill if his crop is full. But regurgitation has not been a problem other than that one time. Thanks also for the info on canker. Was very surprised to read that increased appetite is a symptom. I'd always assumed it's only a symptom of worms. 

It's amazing they managed to save the little guy in the thread you linked to - so glad I'm not dealing with canker of this magnitude, but it does seem stubborn nevertheless.

That yellow nodule under his tongue – I can’t puzzle it out. First it was large, after two doses of Flagyl fell off when I was feeding him, then it appeared again but smaller, and yesterday when I tried to put some metronidazole paste on it, it fell off again, but there's never any bleeding. 

I did not look into his throat to see how the other nodules were doing, but the pattern with those has been the expected one - they are getting smaller and disappearing. I don’t think I have the guts or skill to put the paste in his throat, and he really hates being held more than any other pigeon I’ve had, although he’s otherwise very calm and comes when in his cage to have his head scratched. 
He has an appointment on Tuesday, so we’ ll see then. If his throat is completely clear, and that front nodule doesn’t come back yet again, should I still do a few days of Ronidazole, just to make sure the canker is completely eradicated and won’t come back?

Bella and Jay3, you're right, there does seem to be quite a range in mteronidazole dosage. I have come across this when speaking to different rehabbers, who use widely varying doses. I always think it's best to treat with the smallest dose that does the job, but I'm also afraid of under treating and creating resistance. I trust both of you as you've both had plenty of hands on experience and I value that above all else. I went by the tablets that are sold for racing pigeons (not the most scientific source, I know), which are 60mg once a day. My pigeon weights half that and I give him 45mg. which I realize is on the high end for his weight. Bella makes a good point that these dosages are not meant for 14 day periods. Gosh, I hope I haven't damaged his liver. 


Bella, you have 12 cages for sick pigeons! That's so wonderful (though I sincerely hope they stay empty) that so many birds can rely on such expert and compassionate help.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the update Eva- I'm glad you're able to take him to see someone. 

The way you describe the lesions reminds me a bit of the pigeon I was treating not long ago- the biggest growth started inside the mouth, on the floor of the lower beak. It had ballooned out of the lower beak into a largeish external growth that responded quite well to metronidazole, but grew back quickly when I finished the course. There was a lot of mucous in its mouth and other growths as well....I thought some of it was probably yeast and I gave him Nilstat (Nystatin). That got rid of some of the extra growths and mucous as soon as I started with treatment. He really looked good and I thought he'd recover nicely.

However that particular pigeon didn't make it unfortunately, because the underlying problem was pox. Canker has a nasty tendency to grow on top of pox lesions and I think this was what was happening to the poor little thing This was the pigeon I swapped onto Spartrix when the growths were coming back, but he threw it up and just deteriorated over the next two days and died. I strongly suspect there was a blockage somewhere inside his GI tract , that had been getting bigger as pox tends to do I had been hoping it was a canker blockage that would get smaller with treatment, but no

I don't want to scare you with my pox stories though- I don't think you should worry about it as you'd see signs in other birds if he had it. I just have it on my mind since we have an outbreak here and most of the sick birds in my care have it in addition to canker and other illnesses....I really hate this virus and I'm sooo sick of it.




nycpigeonlady said:


> T
> Bella, you have 12 cages for sick pigeons! That's so wonderful


Thanks Eva! A really amazing and lovely member of this forum gave most of them to me, what an angel she is Sadly they are almost always full because of this pox virus. Four have recovered and been able to be released now though, hopefully with immunity for life.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

So, the little one saw a professional pigeon rehabber yesterday at the Wild Bird Fund - Gloria - whose expertise I trust because I've dealt with her before. 
She looked into his throat and said there is still something left over. I asked for Ronsec as opposed to Spartrix, as per both Jay3's and Bella's advice, and since they were running low on Spartrix anyway, Ronsec is what I got. He took one pill of it yesterday, than no pill today and then will have a second pill tomorrow. I'm a little nervous of these two-pill treatments, but that's how it's supposed to work. She also told me his Flagyl dose was way too high, and that for a pigeon 250-300gms she gives 15mg of Flagyl a day! She is one of those rehabbers who dose metronidazole on the low end, though she has a colleague who doses at 3 times that. 

Anyway, asked for a wormer and was given it , as well as Avertex against coccidia. Not sure if he needs the Avertex with his droppings looking ok, so haven't given it yet, but perhaps better to be on the safe side. 
He also got a vit B Complex injection to boost his immune system and vitamin A. She said she gives vit A for skin issues since he's bald around the beak and for pox, even though she doesn't think he has pox. Bella, this might be something you already know about, but if not it might be useful to you since you deal with so many pox victims. Gloria really thinks the vitamin A helps for pox. She said she has noticed that after she gives it the lesions turn black and fall off with in a day or two. She gives only one very big dose. Three gel caps of vitamin A - each 10,000 IU. She said it is something to do only once because of liver damage. She has noticed it's better to give them a boost with a single large dose than to give a small doses continuously.

So that's the update on the little one, who was very stressed after the trip, but is feeling better today.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks again for updating Eva,
I'm glad that you could see Gloria; she was so switched on with Champion's illness and I can see again that see really knows her stuff. Is the Avertex you mentioned `Appertex'? I've used it in the past and it did seem to work well - but if there are no signs of enteritis I wouldn't think coccidia would be a problem either. Also,being a young bird its suggested by some vets to give them a chance to fight off the coccidia so they build a natural immunity (unless they get sick from it of course). Dr Colin Walker talks about this on his web site: 

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Race_Form_Part2.html

I really appreciate your advice about using Vitamin A for pox too- amazing that the Vitamin A could cause the lesions to clear up so quickly, but then again Vitamin A is known for its skin healing properties so it makes a lot of sense.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Is the Avertex you mentioned `Appertex'? I've used it in the past and it did seem to work well - but if there are no signs of enteritis I wouldn't think coccidia would be a problem either. Also,being a young bird its suggested by some vets to give them a chance to fight off the coccidia so they build a natural immunity (unless they get sick from it of course). Dr Colin Walker talks about this on his web site:
> 
> http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Race_Form_Part2.html


It seems related but different. Avertex is manufactured by AvioMed and this is from their website:


Diclazuril 5 mg.

Based on the well known Coccidia tablet from Europe that contained Clazuril 2.5 mg, Avertex is an improved double strength tablet that contains the newer Diclazuril active ingredient. Diclazuril is one of the most effective and safe treatments against Coccidiosis. This product is completely safe and does not cause any burn of feathers so it is ideal for weaning youngsters. Avertex tablets are mild on the pigeons system and will not cause vomiting or a loss of racing performance.


Thank you for the link, Bella. The article explains things very well. It seems though his droppings have been getting a little soft and watery in these last few days. 

I think he regurgitated the wormer that I gave him yesterday. I'm not totally sure but I think I found a little piece of it stuck to some seeds he had regurgitated. Would it be OK to give it to him again in a few days? 

I hope he doesn't regurgitate the second dose of Ronsec that he got today. I gave him a little Pepto Bismal as Jay3 suggested, and if it helps I'll start doing that before any medication I give. He was awfully quiet yesterday, but is better today. I notice he's not eating as much as he was and makes much less poop, which doesn't look as good as it did.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would have waited to worm him until after he finished the other meds. Do you think it was probably a bit much for his system? I wouldn't give it again. I'd wait the 12 days or whatever it is.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I gave him the wormer yesterday because he wasn't getting any other medication the next day. But he had gotten the Ronsec the previous day (which is a two day dose - give one day, skip a day, give the next day), so it was probably still in his system and I suppose you are right, it might have been too much. 

O.K then, thanks - I'll wait before worming him again.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Which wormer was it Eva? I usually worm when the bird is finished its other meds , but I don't think it was a terrible decision to worm now that the course of metronidazole has finished.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I was given Drontal Plus (praziquantel/pyrantel pamoate/febantelfor) - it's supposed to be very gentle and effective against many types of worms.

Actually, the rehabber gave me the wormer, the avertex and the ronsec to give together the same day and said there shouldn't be a problem with that. I decided to give the wormer the day he wasn't getting any other med, and to hold off on the avertex. I just thought the sooner he's wormed, the quicker he'll recover, but how I wish now I'd waited a few more days.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva, 

It might have been the right decision to worm...worms only get more mature and more destructive, if that's the problem. And pyrantel parmoate is known to be especially gentle so I don't think you did anything wrong with using that.

What is this febantelfor? It sounds like something related to fenbendazole, which is a notorius wormer commonly prescribed to birds but known to be toxic to pigeons. The drugs related to this are also toxic.

I would discontinue this and look for the following:

ivermectin
moxydectin
levimisole
pure pyrantel parmoate


All of these are known to be effective and safe on this forum.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> What is this febantelfor?


Hi Bella, 

sorry - I misspelled it – it’s actually febantel, and from the information I can find, it is the single active ingredient in Avicas worming tablets with are for racing pigeons specifically. 

I have read of other members on PT using Drontal Plus with good results, and this is the wormer Gloria gave Champion who had no negative reaction to it, but he was in a different league in terms of health and strength compared to this fragile little one. This is the wormer that Gloria uses for all her charges, so I trusted her when she told me it was safe. The most comprehensive information I can find on it is below, and they say fenbendazole is one of the metabolites of febantel. I don't know what this means exactly, but perhaps it's better to avoid.

SUMMARY OF PRODUCTS CHARACTERISTICS

1. NAME OF THE VETERINARY MEDICINAL PRODUCT
Avicas, febantel 15 mg, tablet

2. QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVE COMPOSITION
Active ingrediants
Febantel
Per tablet
15.0 mg

3. PHARMACEUTICAL FORM
Tablet
White, round biconvex tablets, diameter 7 mm, odourless.

4. CLINICAL PARTICULARS
4.1 Target species
Racing pigeons

4.2 Indications for use, specifying the target species
Prevention and treatment of worm infections in racing pigeons, caused by Ascaridia columbae (roundworm) and Capillaria spp. (hairworm).

4.3 Contra-indications
Do not administer AVICAS during the moulting period or to parents which are feeding nestlings.

4.4 Special warnings for each target species
None.

4.5 Special precautions for use

i. Special precautions for use in target animals
In the case of clinical infections, treat all the pigeons in the loft at the same time. Following treatment, disinfect the pigeon-loft in order to avoid reinfections.

Other precautions
None.

4.6 Adverse reactions (frequency and seriousness)
None.

4.7 Use during pregnancy, lactation or lay
Do not administer AVICAS during the moulting period or to parents which are feeding nestlings.

From the limited information available on the effects of febantel on reproduction, it is not expected that Avicas will have adverse effects on breeding birds.

4.8 Interaction with other medicinal products and other forms of interaction
No information is available on possible interactions with other products.

4.9 Amount(s) to be administered and administration route
The recommended dose rate is 30 mg febantel per kg bodyweight, or 1 tablet per pigeon, to be administered orally.

Curative treatment

For the treatment of clinical worm infections 1 tablet should be given and the same dose repeated after 8 days. In the case of heavy Capillaria infection, 1 tablet should be given on two consecutive days and this two day treatment repeated one week later.

Preventive treatment

For routine prophylactic treatment 1 tablet should be given 1 month before the breeding season, and again 1 month before the racing season.

4.10 Overdose (symptoms, emergency procedures, antidotes), if necessary
Benzimidazoles have a wide margin of safety.


5. PHARMACOLOGICAL PROPERTIES
Pharmacotherapeutic group:
anthelminticum, benzimidazole

5.1 Pharmacodynamic properties
The anthelmintic activity of febantel is principally due to its metabolites: fenbendazole, oxfendazole and febantel sulphoxide.

Fenbendazole and oxfendazole have been used as anthelmintics for many years. Since they are the main metabolites of febantel, their mode of action is discussed below.
Benzimidazoles interfere with the energy-generating metabolism, whilst mebendazole is an inhibitor of the glucose transport, others such as albendazole, cambendazole, fenbendazole, oxibendazole, parbendazole and thiabendazole are inhibitors of mitochondrial reactions. If glucose is transported into the worm, and is metabolized through glycolysis, it may enter the mitochondria for further reactions and electron transport-associated energy generation. The benzimidazole anthelmintics inhibit the fumarate reductase step, thereby block mitochondrial function and inhibit energy generation (Prichard, R.K., 1970).
Sharma and Abuzar (1983) described a more recent theory of mode of action of benzimidazole anthelmintics, based on their binding affinity in vitro and in vivo with tubulin, an important component of the cytoskeleton of all living cells. The authors further reported that in vitro experiments with bovine and sheep brain tubulin indicate that thiabendazole, cambendazole, oxibendazole, parbendazole and fenbendazole all bind with tubulin and inhibit its polymerization (assembly) to microtubules. 
Dorny et al. (1987) reported morphological changes in Capillaria obsignata eggs after treatment with cambendazole. According to the authors, it appears that benzimidazoles have a pronounced ovicidal activity in female trichostrongylids, whereas in Trichuroidae (Trichuris, Capillaria), eggs are often viable but abnormal in size, shape, and colour. The authors suggested that the drug acts on the ovary during treatment.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Benzimidazoles have a wide margin of safety.
> 
> Fenbendazole and oxfendazole have been used as anthelmintics for many years. Since they are the main metabolites of febantel, their mode of action is discussed below.
> Benzimidazoles interfere with the energy-generating metabolism, whilst mebendazole is an inhibitor of the glucose transport, others such as albendazole, cambendazole, fenbendazole, oxibendazole, parbendazole and thiabendazole are inhibitors of mitochondrial reactions.


Dear Eva,

Yes a lot of professionals , including reknown Avian vets, don't know about the risks to pigeons for some reason. I definitely would not use this myself, as this whole family of wormers- the benzimidazoles-have been known to kill many pigeons on this forum. 

You're right, there are no scientific references to this danger anywhere online that I've been able to find either, and most vets are unaware - but if you have time to do a forum search, there are many depressing anecdotes here about deaths caused by Fenbendazole in the form of panacur, and I've personally lost a pigeon when a vet gave it oxfendazole in the form of wormout gel . They don't always die & its not a given- but it happens enough to be considered risky.

Its probably good that your rescue regurgitated the wormer and also that the toxic element was diluted right down with the pyrantel parmoate and praziquantel.

PS. the pyrantel parmoate is regarded as probably the gentlest wormer for a very sick pigeon- it would be great if you could find some. I get mine from a regular human drugstore, but I normally use moxidectin becuase it doesn't cause nausea like other wormers.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

He's really taken a turn for the worse. 

He doesn't eat and regurgitates everything I feed him (peas and corn), even though today he hasn't had any meds. There's only bile in his poop now. He finished the Ronsec treatment yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have done anything for the canker. I can still see the nodule deep in his throat, and even the one in his lower beak I think might be coming back. I'll take him back tomorrow and ask for Spartrix.

I've been gradually reducing the amount I feed him to see how much he can handle - I just gave him 7 kernels of corn, which he's keeping down so far - everything over that he doesn't. That was about 30 min ago, so he may still regurgitate even that. I guess I'll keep doing that every 3 hours, but it still won't amount to much. I don't know if he'll do any better with formula, but I'm wary of giving him that because of aspiration - from me and if he regurgitates it.

Can I give him pepto bismal before feeding or should that be used so sparingly that it's reserved for medication taking only?

Thanks Bella, I definitely won't use that wormer ever again, even if I don't think his state is related to that, because he started going down before the wormer. He was doing so well at one point - eating, bathing, exploring..... In 14 days of metronidazole he regurgitated only once, and now...I don't know what else to do.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can give him a couple of drops of Pepto before you fed him. Also, you could just switch to the peas, and not the corn, as peas are much easier to digest. If you get the Spartrix, it would be good to give it together with the Metronidazole, as the two together work well on stubborn cases of canker. Give Metro in the morning and the Spartrix at night. Also, making a paste with the Metronidazole and gently applying with a Q-tip to the canker nodules often works well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ya know, when you see the rehabber again, maybe you could have her show you how to crop feed. That could be very helpful to you.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Tanks Jay3. I was feeding him peas, but since he was regurgitating those too, I switched to corn. I'll switch back. 

Can I go back to the metronidazole again even though he was on it for two weeks already?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Ah, Eva that is so rough, I'm so sorry to hear it 

Regurgitation in a sick bird really takes it out of them and its not easy to pull them through with hand feeding solid food. I've had some success with hand feeding halves of soaked cat kibble (up to 10 pieces at a sitting), but I've lost birds too once they get into the cycle of regurgitation. I really hate it because towards the end, the regurgitation can be a sign that the bird's body is shutting down and it can't take any more food or medicine..and there's no clear way to know when the time where you can still save it has already passed, and to just let the little thing have its peace. 

I wish we knew what was wrong for sure; to me some of the symptoms you describe fit with the effects of a bad worm infestation, where the wormer has caused massive worm die off and internal blockage. The dead worms blocking the GI tract can release toxins and cause regurgitation when this happens. Even if its not the problem, as a precaution you can give 0.5 ml of olive oil ; it won't cause any harm and he could probably do with the calories, if he can keep it down. Vets would normally try to clear a worm blockage with mineral oil, and if that doesn't work, then surgery in bigger animals. But its a very serious problem and its not always possible to bring them through it if the worm infestation was horrible. not saying this is the problem, but some of what you've described fits.

Canker and viruses can cause these symptoms too....but I guess I've never encountered canker that wouldn't clear up after two very good canker treatments, unless the bird had worms or a virus. So I am suspicious of there being another ailment involved...no way to know for sure though.

PS. Is he managing to drink on his own, and do you have any amoxicillin that you can give it, or another antibiotic? You deserve a nice dinner & some pampering tonight for all your hard work, Eva. What an exceptional person you are.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the support. Sorry, I have to run out (unfortunately no nice dinner and pampering is involved) and will be offline for a few hours. 

I have Augmentin tablets which contain amoxicillin 875mg and clavulanate potassium 125mg. It says to take with food to avoid stomach upset and that it may cause diarrhea, for people of course. Is it rough on pigeons too?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva,
I've used it, its particularly good for birds with worms and internal inflammation- and for respiratory illness too just FYI. It will reduce internal inflammation (whether it be from canker or worms), which may give him the edge he needs to get food passing through his digestive system. 

The dose is roughly 1/10th of a tablet- I will find the exact dosage for when you get back...


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

..ok, I found the info on this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/clavamox-augmentin-17841.html

Dobato's instructions on that thread are to give 30-60mg of amoxicillin for a 300 gram pigeon (I've folowed her instructions for years and they are always extremely sound and detailed). So with the Augmentin having 875mg amoxicillin per pill, then 1/15th of a pill would be the correct dose of 60mg. 

Has someone shown you how to make a suspension from a tablet? If not, you would add one crushed pill of the augmentin to 7.5 ml of maple syrup (or alternative) and give 0.5ml of this mixture. That will be your dose of 60mg amoxicillin, or you can halve this for a very conservative dose of 30mg if you feel he is too ill.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> If not, you would add one crushed pill of the augmentin to 7.5 ml of maple syrup (or alternative) and give 0.5ml of this mixture. That will be your dose of 60mg amoxicillin, or you can halve this for a very conservative dose of 30mg if you feel he is too ill.


Thanks for the instructions - they are very clear even for somebody as math-challenged as me. Would I give him 0.5ml every 12 hours?

I got cat kibble and puppy chow - let's see how he does with that tomorrow. 

I feel so terrible because when I took him in, even with all the canker visible he was still in better shape than he is in now. I can't help feeling he's doing worse from the treatment in my care than from the disease, even as I realize he didn't have a chance outdoors because he was at the point where the canker was preventing him from eating. 

I have so much to learn and am so grateful to have so much support.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,

You've done SO well- this is an abnormal case of canker and you've been very thorough. There's just probably something else going on. The poor thing should have picked up from the course of metronidazole, its a great treatment and your doses were aggressive too which should have taken care of it. And you followed up with ronidazole, which is also a great drug for canker. I also agree with your decision to worm him after the full course of metronidazole was finished, as canker and worms often go hand in hand in my own rescues, and the worm infestations have always been very bad ones. 

At this point, what you can do is make sure he's somehow getting water and food into him while he's too sick to eat on his own. The regurgitation could stop by tomorrow , I really hope it does.

Eva, what are you seeing in the droppings now?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

He's had the olive oil, the antibiotic suspension, and some soaked kibble, all this with a couple of drops of pepto bismal, and he's keeping it down for now - I hope I'm not speaking too soon. I also managed to get some water into him.

This morning there were maybe three or four poops, mostly white with bile but one had some bulk to it, I suppose from the little that he managed to keep down yesterday, so I suppose he's passing something - a huge relief. 

His general state though is poor and he's very weak compared to even two days ago. The bad news is that I really need to start the Spartrix as soon as possible and the only place I can get it from so soon is the Wild Bird Fund. However, Gloria is away till Tuesday and I have to see another rehabber who refused to give me the medication without having seen the bird. So we'll be heading there in a couple of hours. It's a 45 minute journey on the subway each way with loud noise and jostling motion and it's exhausting for him. It's the very last thing he needs right now, but I don't think he can wait either. Hopefully, they'll able to do something more for him to make it worthwhile.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Would you like me to over-night some Spartrix to you? Today is Saturday, so you probably won't get it till Monday, but that's one day sooner and you wouldn't have to make that trip on the subway.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thank you so much Jay3 - that a very generous offer! I really appreciate it. 

I just don't know - do you think I should take him over right now or wait to start till Monday? The canker isn't such that it's preventing him from swallowing food and such, at least what's visible. It's very little in fact, but I don't know if there's some in his crop, too. 

I guess it's probably more important to not exhaust him further right now, so yes please - that would be great. I'll PM you my address. Many, many thanks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I just can't imagine bringing him on that trip. I'll check my PMs and get it out right away. I have already packaged it up, just need to add your address to the package.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Super! You're awesome - thank you so much!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Super! You're awesome - thank you so much!


The way you are trying for this little guy makes _you_ the awesome one. You're doing all the work. What I did was the very least someone _could_ do. I just hope he makes it and gets well. Poor little thing.
Praying for him.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> He's had the olive oil, the antibiotic suspension, and some soaked kibble, all this with a couple of drops of pepto bismal, and he's keeping it down for now - I hope I'm not speaking too soon. I also managed to get some water into him.
> 
> This morning there were maybe three or four poops, mostly white with bile but one had some bulk to it, I suppose from the little that he managed to keep down yesterday, so I suppose he's passing something - a huge relief.


I'm really glad to hear this Eva. You're right, he's getting food through him and that is very hopeful. He'll be feeling weak from the lack of food and from the effects of the wormer too- hopefully we'll see him gain a bit of strength with the nutrition you're giving him.

Regarding the Spartrix, please keep in mind that it can cause regurgitation (even half doses caused regurgitation in three of my sick birds, like I mentioned earlier in the thread) and the last thing this one needs right now is to go through this again right now. Just IMO , I would suggest that you focus on getting him to keep food down for several days, as he really is on the edge right now & I don't think he could handle another day or so regurgitating at this point. That's just what I would do anyway. If you decide to give Spartrix to him, it might help to crush half a pill up and mix it with honey or maple syrup instead of giving the straight pill. And of course add the Pepto, which I know you would.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Spartrix does not cause vomiting but canker and metronidazole can. 
*
It sounds like this poor pigeon has a very severe case and so he needs both spartrix and metronidazole.
I've been rehabbing since 1986 and this is my best advice to you, Eva.
Canker is one of the most damaging infections affecting pigeons and through the years it has become resistant to the standard medications and so we have had to combine them for a cure. Most of the pigeons I receive to rehab have a canker infection.
Please, do give a couple of drops of pepto bismo about 10 minutes prior to feeding. Medicate directly after feeding.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I welcome your input Charis.

Eva, I wonder if Gloria or another bird rehabber in your area can tell you if its common to encounter resistant strains of canker in your region? Obviously its a huge problem where Charis lives, but I've never encountered it personally....if a bird has not responded quickly to canker medicine, its always been because it had another underlying problem that was compromising the immune system-usually very bad worm infestation and/or a viral illness. Once I took care of the secondary problem, the canker cleared up pronto.

Interesting how experiences differ in different flocks of pigeons around the world.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Whether or not it is common to have resistant strains of canker in N.Y. is not relevant. Sometimes canker is resistant to treatment, no matter where you live. There are many different strains of canker. Some are just more resistant to different drugs than others. If a bird doesn't respond to canker treatment, it is not because of other underlying problems. The canker is one problem, and the other illnesses it may have is another problem. These are separate issues. Either the med cures the canker, or it doesn't, regardless of what else may be going on. You have no way of knowing that those other things are what caused the canker to linger. You are just assuming that. Of course most of your rescues had worms. They were feral. Very common in feral birds, as most have some. But that is not going to make the canker resistant to the medications. You treat them for all the issues, and hopefully clear all of them up, but one issue does not cause the bird to not respond to a drug that is given for a different issue. Being that there are so many different strains, it is not impossible for the bird to be carrying more than one form at a time. Either the canker will respond to a med or it won't regardless of whatever else may be going on with the bird. That is why if one drug doesn't work, we try a different drug. And this particular combination of Spartrix and Metronidazole happens to work very well together for resistant canker in the states.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> *I welcome your input Charis.
> *
> Eva, I wonder if Gloria or another bird rehabber in your area can tell you if its common to encounter resistant strains of canker in your region? Obviously its a huge problem where Charis lives, but I've never encountered it personally....if a bird has not responded quickly to canker medicine, its always been because it had another underlying problem that was compromising the immune system-usually very bad worm infestation and/or a viral illness. Once I took care of the secondary problem, the canker cleared up pronto.
> 
> Interesting how experiences differ in different flocks of pigeons around the world.


Oh thank you Bella... that means so much to read. I hope Eva found it of benefit too.
Canker resistance is a huge problem world wide. I remember our beloved Terry Whatley warning us about resistant canker in probably 2008. At that time, I had not experienced resistant canker in my rescues.... sadly, my experience would soon change. 
Undoubtedly, it will come to Australia too. For all the birds, I hope it won't be soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here is an older post from PT that I came across. Might find it informative.


Dobato

Old 18th October 2010, 11:51 PM

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,445
Eternal, most times a second antiprotozoal is either substituted or added, the best for resistant canker for pigeons would be Ronidazole (12.5mg/kg q24h), if not the Spartrix (Carnidazole), one 10mg pill a day along with 50mg/kg q12h of the Metronidazole. If neither of these is a possibility, then you could try switching him to Tinidazole (Fasigyn), as not too long ago a caregiver in Greece ran into a case of canker that was not clearing, I suggested he switch to Tinidazole and it did finally clear. Is the Metronidazole you have liquid?....if not pick up some liquid as well and give the Tinidazole orally (same dosing as Metronidazole, 50mg/kg q12h) and with a small brush paint any oral canker lesions with the liquid Metronidazole.

Karyn
Last edited by Dobato; 19th October 2010 at 05:06 PM.
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http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/resistant-canker-47811.html


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Charis, I'm terrified of things like encountering resistant strains of canker , and I'm sorry to hear that as recently as 2008 meds were still working ok over your way. What a shame to hear this.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay, you can come across as a bit rude & coarse in your use of language sometimes, has anyone mentioned that to you? I'd appreciate a slightly softer tone, considering how polite & conceding I am to you always.

This is a not a competition for who is right. Noone knows the exact cause of the regurgitation, but we all have ideas and valuable experiences to share. The regurgitation may be caused by canker,or it might be caused by the toxic wormer the pigeons was just given with fenbatel in it, related to fenbendazole. Or it could be soemthing else. 

Charis has really superb instincts and a wealth of experience in the USA, so I defer to her knowledge about canker treatment.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Jay, you can come across as a bit rude & coarse in your use of language sometimes, has anyone mentioned that to you? I'd appreciate a slightly softer tone, considering how polite & conceding I am to you always.
> 
> This is a not a competition for who is right. Noone knows the exact cause of the regurgitation, but we all have ideas and valuable experiences to share. The regurgitation may be caused by canker,or it might be caused by the toxic wormer the pigeons was just given with fenbatel in it, related to fenbendazole. Or it could be soemthing else.
> 
> Charis has really superb instincts and a wealth of experience in the USA, so I defer to her knowledge about canker treatment.




Bella, I stated facts. If you take that as rude or course, I cannot help that. I can only be responsible for what I say. How you choose to interpret them is on you. I believe that my disagreeing with you is what you are perceiving as course and rude. People are going to have different opinions. You stated yours. I stated mine.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay, I welcome other opinions, very much so. 

What I find rude is the way lately you invalidate almost every experience I share on this forum, which IS rude and counterproductive on a forum like this. And there is no tact in the way you do it. Even when I show you credible facts that support my opinion you reject them, which makes it seem that for you, the invalidation is what is important, not actual facts.

Invalidation isn't fun; its a form of bullying. Its not factual at all- your belief that my experiences didn't happen and I am always wrong are your opinion, not fact. This comes from some mean or frightened part of you that doesn't want to believe that alternative experiences and beliefs are valid . From my perspective, the behaviour borders on stalking and character assassination sometimes.

Please don't get me wrong, I like you Jay because of what you do. Its only a behaviour I wanted to mention, because I find it hurtful. Would you please at least think about how you make me feel when you follow me around tearing me down in every thread? Do I have to talk to a moderator about this ?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Update*

He’s looking much brighter this morning - for the first time ever he even cooperated during feeding, and tried to peck at a couple stray bits of kibble while I was feeding him. He’s keeping down the food and medicine and keeping the droppings coming – I don’t think I can ask for more at this stage. I dare not try giving him anything without pepto first – it’s been a real lifesaver.

Yesterday, thanks to Jay’s awesomeness instead of being jostled for close to 2 hours he was able to rest, but also did some exploring around, even played with a few seeds, exercised his wings for a bit, and I take all these to be very good signs, because before when he was regurgitating he would only sit in one place fluffed with eyes half- closed in exhaustion, and would remain so even during feeding. It was scary and heart-breaking. 

He’s a very strong-spirited little bird and he’s doing his best – maybe the antibiotic is helping too, or maybe as Bella says, it’s just having food in him again that’s making the difference. As Jay suggested to me yesterday, I'm adding Nystatin to his regimen for yeast overgrowth, just be on the safe side now that he's on antibiotics. 


Bella and Jay,

I understand you’re passionate about your opinions because you both care so much, but also because your opinions are backed up by your considerable experience and I know how much you want to do right by this little bird. Please don't let that, as well as differences in personal style get in the way of an incredibly helpful thread that will hopefully save a life now, and many more in the future. You’re both such incredibly kind and caring people, and I feel so touched and overwhelmed by all the support you’ve given me, and by following the helpful advice of both of you (as well as Charis of course and the others), I think there's good reason to hope again.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Eva, I'm so glad he's doing better. All those things are good signs. I would start the two med regimen asap to make sure and clear out this canker. Otherwise it will just come back even stronger. It's like when people stop taking their antibiotic too soon because they are feeling better. What they are doing is just helping to make the disease more resistant to the drug, and it comes back on them. Half the dosage of Spartrix would not be enough med to do any good.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Jay, I welcome other opinions, very much so.
> 
> What I find rude is the way lately you invalidate almost every experience I share on this forum, which IS rude and counterproductive on a forum like this.
> 
> ...


Bella, I have never followed you around. And I don't tear you down. Often we give different advice. It's just that I don't take it personally, like you are out to get me. While I consider what you are saying to me, maybe you should consider that many different people on here are going to have different ideas of treatment that are not always going to agree with yours. And maybe when someone gives opposing advice, that you shouldn't take it as a personal slight to you. Hard to have a conversation with you, as you seem to view it as being an attack. If I make a suggestion to a poster, it has nothing to do with you. Only giving the best advice that I know to help. If you take that otherwise, than it sounds like a personal thing within you. If you feel the need to talk to a mod about this, then by all means do. Now can we drop this and get back on track with this thread. When you do this in a thread, which you often seem to, it does take the thread off track. It would be a lot more considerate to the poster to PM the person, rather than derailing their thread. So in the interest of helping this bird, and Eva, who is doing all she can and doing a great job, lets get back on track.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Jay, I received the Spartrix today before noon even! Thank you so so much for your lightning fast and generous response.

Will start him on it tonight (will do the maple syrup suspension - he takes well to it) because he's doing quite well to my utter surprise and delight. So well in fact, he took a bath just now, which I wasn't prepared for at all, so I hadn't warmed the room as needed. All he needs now is a cold, sigh......Such a feisty little devil - when he exercises his wings by hovering in the air in one place for a while, I know he has energy to spare.
I'm beginning to think it might have been something bacterial too, that the antibiotic is helping.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wow! Taking a bath is a great sign. Sick birds don't normally want to bathe. That is such great news. I'm excited about that. Yes, could very well be other things combined, as it often is. Sure sounds like things are going in the right direction. That's what you want, a feisty little devil who will fight to get well. Good job Eva!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the update Eva, I was SO hoping for this news this morning.
I am crossing my fingers that you will not have experiences like I had with Spartrix, and that the Pepto will prevent regurgitation. Pepto is not a product we get here so I haven't had the good fortune of using it. 

Is he still on the Augmentin?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella...pm me your address and I'll be happy to get some pepto in the mail to you this week. A bottle will last a long time and make a big difference to the birds that need it. Certainly I'll be happy to send you more when the bottle is getting low.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

You're very sweet Charis, thanks for your generous offer. And for the Olive branch as well.

I think this is a banned substance here, and from what I'm hearing about people's attempts to get the banned PMV-1 virus vaccination into Australia, customs are really onto anything illegal. I've been getting antibiotics and canker meds here ok from abroad but they are not banned substances , just difficult& expensive to get locally.

Because of your advice I've been looking into the active ingredient of Pepto Bismol: bismuth subsalicylate.I still can't find an equivalent product in Australia that contains this, but I will ask my human doctor about it. What a great product this is- I read that also kills the H.pylori bacteria that cause stomach ulcers as well, so it would be good for Australian humans as well as birds

I really appreciate you taking the time to teach me about this medicine Charis. 

PS. if you ever need the name of the place in Thailand where I get antibiotics, let me know..they deliver fast too.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Well, I'm happy to report good progress again.

His poop is now the only thing that is going in the wrong direction. It's gradually been getting more and more watery, but the solid part looked the way it's supposed to, and now it’s very watery, and the solid part looks like thin worm like strings. I don’t know if this indicates an intestinal inflammation – I hope not - but is rather due more to the antibiotic? 

Otherwise he's looking really good. He took another bath today, and his appetite is great. He's now used to getting food every 3 hours and will come to alert me that it's time. I was taking a nap today in his room, and was woken up by him pecking at my toe. As soon as I looked at him, he came to stand right next to me looking at me very intently - sure enough it had been exactly three hours since his last feeding.

I have been feeding him purina puppy chow (same as the cat kibble that Bella recommended - a little lower in protein) that's soaked to the point where it's so soggy it almost falls apart. It seems a really great way to feed a sick bird because it's almost no longer solid food and it's a good way to stay hydrated too. I just wish they wouldn't put crap like artificial color in it - may be there's a more natural, organic dog food out there, I just really didn't look. Anyway, he absolutely loves it - wolfs it down and pecks it off my fingers. I can foresee a difficult time ahead trying to wean him back onto seed again. He now eats without the pepto (which he gets only before medicines) and doesn’t stop wanting food until his crop is quite full, but on his own just plays with the seeds without eating them, the way that very young birds do when they are first learning. 

As to the canker – it’s strange because on Friday (the last Ronsec dose was Thursday) there was still some at the back of his throat, which is why I wanted to start the Spartrix as soon as possible. Well by Sunday, his throat looked clear so I suppose the Ronsec keeps working for a while after administration. Anyway, I still gave him a pill of Spartrix dissolved in maple syrup on Sunday night, just to make sure it’s totally gone and stays that way. He seemed to tolerate it ok. 

Yes, he's still on the augmentin - it’s been now 3 and a half days and I really do think it's helping, because he's improved drastically and is feeling well. How many days should I do?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's great that he is doing well. And even bathed again. Great! You're doing a great job Eva. Going to be fun trying to get him back to seeds I think. LOL. I can just picture him waking you up by pecking at your toe. That's cute. I would o the Spartrix for the 3 days, just to be sure that there isn't anything down further in the throat, but that's your call. I like to be sure, rather than giving something a chance to come back.
Probably have to do the Augmentin for 10 days to be sure. Keep up the good work.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks SO much Eva, your good news made me very happy this morning That was a really good call going with the purina puppy chow- I trust the protein levels in dog food much more too. 

Its so cute the way he comes to you to feed him every 3 hours


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> I would o the Spartrix for the 3 days, just to be sure that there isn't anything down further in the throat, but that's your call. I like to be sure, rather than giving something a chance to come back.


I'll take it day by day but as long as he's tolerating it, will do the three days.

He's really taken to the hand feeding maybe because he's a younger bird. So yes, weaning - my always least favorite part will be even more fun than usual. I'm like one of those grandmothers who I remember from my childhood, that used to run after their grand kids onto the playground to their utter embarrassment, with a sandwich and a glass of milk. I hate the idea of my bird staying hungry which makes weaning hell for me.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks SO much Eva


No, thank YOU for guiding me through this. To think of his condition just a few days ago - I felt so desperate and was sure I would loose him - there was no energy left in his little body at all. Now I too, feel like I can fly.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> I'll take it day by day but as long as he's tolerating it, will do the three days.
> 
> He's really taken to the hand feeding maybe because he's a younger bird. So yes, weaning - my always least favorite part will be even more fun than usual. *I'm like one of those grandmothers who I remember from my childhood, that used to run after their grand kids onto the playground to their utter embarrassment, with a sandwich and a glass of milk. *I hate the idea of my bird staying hungry which makes weaning hell for me.



Oh that's funny! I can picture that.

Yes Eva, just take it day by day. As long as he is tolerating it. Things are looking good.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> No, thank YOU for guiding me through this. To think of his condition just a few days ago - I felt so desperate and was sure I would loose him - there was no energy left in his little body at all. Now I too, feel like I can fly.


Dear Eva, Thank you  I was just wondering if there's any way to get him within sight of the birds who feed outside your window when the time to wean arrives? I have good luck with weaning when the bird watches others pecking at seed. Its a good sign that he's interested in pecking the seeds, even now.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Yes, you are right it really helps - even now when he's in my bedroom where he spends almost all day watching the other pigeons. Whenever I feed them at the living room window which is at a right angle to the bedroom one, he goes to his seeds too. When he's completely canker free and no longer infective to the others, I'll move him to the living room where he can be right next to them as they eat, separated only by a mesh screen.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

That sounds like a good plan Eva! When I wean off hand feeding , I just keep an eye on their droppings (and cross my fingers). If the droppings are decent in quality/quantity then I know that they are eating enough on their own.

Its tiring hand feeding, so good on you Eva for putting in so much effort. I look forward to you being rewarded with his return to perfect health.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Day 2 of Spartix*

Two down, one more to go! No regurgitation from the Spartrix, but was perhaps a little more quiet in the morning than yesterday. Back to his normal self this afternoon though.

He’s very tame and social and I’m getting very attached to him, so I better release him soon, before I find a reason not to. He is beginning to be more indifferent to the pigeons outside and spending more time with me. Any time I lie down on the bed, he comes over and perches on my stomach to preen himself. Otherwise when I’m working at my desk he stands on my forearm or on the computer. 
Spent a good deal of time today playing with his seeds, but just picked out the mustard seeds, which were not that many.

His feathers are very sparse on his head and neck and I wonder why he’s so bald around the mouth and the front of the neck too. Is this all due to the canker or could he have mites? He does scratch himself with his feet quite a lot. Are there any safe sprays or powders or such that you can recommend?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. He sounds just adorable. And yes, they do have a way of working their way into your heart. Yes, canker can definitely cause the feather loss. More than like what that is. The feathers should fill in once he's all better. If you are concerned about mites, any pet shop would have a mite and lice spray for birds. Just don't get it in his eyes or anywhere near his face, so that he doesn't breath it in. There are also Permethrin powders that you can dust him with. I keep it in a small tin with a powder puff. Makes it very easy to apply that way. With either one, make sure you get under his wings good, as that is where bugs love to hide. And under the tail, his tummy and back. Just not his head.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks to everyone's help the little one is doing wonderfully well. I actually think “he” is little hen, so I’m officially switching to” she” from now on. Yesterday was her 10th and last day on the antibiotic. She eats well on her own, the poop is perfect in every way, and I intend to keep her just a few more days to give her some probiotic and vitamins before release. I’m sure she’ll keep coming back to eat, so I can keep giving her more probiotics sprinkled onto oiled seeds at that time. She seems really ready to leave now, although she has been enjoying her stay too. She takes a bath daily and then it’s on to a nice nap on our bed - to my husband’s great displeasure, she actually prefers his side of the bed. 
I'll miss her a very much, but I hope to be seeing her daily.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wonderful news! You did great with her.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Nice job! Don't you just love a happy ending? And it sounds like the bird is enjoying all the perks of it's stay with you. Maybe hubby will come around when he sees how happy both you and the bird are.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the excellent news Eva, that's so awesome My second rescue was a hen I called `good girl' and she comes back every day. During lean times when I can't feed the whole flock, she will land on my hand and eat a handful of seed there.....its hard letting them go but she has a mate now and its also nice seeing her fly high up in the sky...

PS. Have you seen much of Champion and his pretty girl lately?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

almondman said:


> Maybe hubby will come around when he sees how happy both you and the bird are.


You're right. He did take it better this time, because the bird recovered relatively quickly and I was very happy. With my previous rescue it seemed like an open ended commitment to him, and he had to watch me worried sick over that pigeon for months on end. He was convinced that's what would happen this time too, and was pleasantly surprised to see a quick resolution.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> PS. Have you seen much of Champion and his pretty girl lately?


Oh, thanks for asking. They both come and eat out of my hand 3-4 times everyday. They are sitting on eggs - and he's an excellent partner - he sits on them until 7pm, later than any of the other males in the flock. He then comes very very hungry, but looks good and happy. Today both of them came together for the first time, so who knows, maybe the eggs have hatched. I tried to quickly grab my binoculars to see if there are babies in the nest, but by then his lady was already back on the nest.


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