# my pigeons are sick...



## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

Hi all...
well I finally figured out what was causing all my birds to lose health rapidly... it seems there was a hole in my cage which was probably corroded off cause the drinking water for the birds was always kept above it... and guess what, some mice thought it would be a good idea to pay them a visit every now and then (infecting their feed etc etc).

well since I saw the mice in the cage yesterday for the 1st time, I promptly took out my 3 remaining birds and placed them in my bathroom temporarily.
Unfortunately, while they were doing a bit well the last few weeks (eating properly etc after giving them baytril and other meds prescribed), they again seemed to have stopped eating, and one bird is thinner than ever!  

well Ill just give you guys the rundown of the current situation of each of my birds, I kept all of them under close surveillance today

bird 1 - male - healthwise, the best of the lot (thats not saying much though). can fly short distances, moves around like a healthy pigeon, even bit me a few times when I got too close today... but its thin (sternum can be felt easily), and poop is yellowish-brown, but not too watery. gave it food in the 12 hours back (morning), ate willignly, crop is empty now

bird 2 - female - doesnt look too good, doesnt move around too much, feathers a bit ruffled up when resting. gave it food in the morning (the same stuff as bird 1), ate willingly, but crop is still almost full! occasionally poops, they are watery, yellowish brown (emphasis on yellow). cannot fly, thin... sleeping/resting a lot...

bird 3 - female - extremely thin, wings are drooping a bit on the sides, very pungent brownish poop (sticky as well, cus I think it sticks to its butt), poops rarely... when I gave it food (same stuff), it tried to eat, but after a while it kept choking (I checked its mouth, it couldnt swallow all the grains for some reason, no canker though), but it managed to gulp it down herself after a few minutes or so. crop is still almost the same as it was when it ate almost 12 hours back.

sigh... what do I do now? Im giving them 25 mg of tri-sulpha orally every 12 hours since yesterday, and kept them in the relatively warm bathroom, which is free of rodents. (had given them the aforementioned med as well as baytril a month or so back as well, they seemed to have been recovering at that time). any particular reason for the crop not emptying on the 2 pigeons? will the meds take effect if they cant digest the food?


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2007)

Where there are mice, there is paratyphoid so it's probably that. When dealing with this disease, Baytril is the best drug to use. Other drugs like a penicillin or Doxycycline are useful but there are over 2500 varieties of this bacterium and Baytril is known to hit more of them than the others. The weakest drug to use against Paratyphoid is tri-sulphur. 
Also, I believe you have used too high a dose for that drug so medicating these birds a month back and then now, could have very easily triggered a yeast infection and that may be one reason why the crops are slow to empty although a bacterial infection can also certainly slow the crop down but without going to a vet for a fecal analysis, this is guesswork.. 
My only suggestion for you at this point is to recommend Medistatin and Baytril, both for 15 days however, misuse of the antibiotics may have created a resistant infection so it might not be possible to save these birds at this point. Baytril should be 5mg twice, a day. (Baytril is dosed at 15mg per kilogram so a 300 gram bird would only get 4.5 mg but you need 5mg of Baytril to try and hit the more resistant bacteria that survived the tri-sulphur.) 
Do you have a Nystatin like Medistatin? At this point, Nystatin is a must and incidentally, one of the signs of a yeast infection is malodorous droppings.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

How long did you give them the Baytril for the paratyphoid-that is the one they need?

Have you treated them for canker at all?

You should also put some ACV in their drinking water and give them lots of probiotics, from health food store-in the refrigerator section.

Do any of them smell from their beak also, you might have a yeast infection going on there. I would adminsiter a garlic cap to each one of them each day to bolster the immune system.

Keep them warm and free from drafts, and hand feed if they are not eating, when their crops are empty.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Any idea what these birds weigh?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

fortfun2 said:


> ......
> 
> sigh... what do I do now? Im giving them 25 mg of tri-sulpha orally every 12 hours since yesterday, and kept them in the relatively warm bathroom, which is free of rodents. (had given them the aforementioned med as well as baytril a month or so back as well, they seemed to have been recovering at that time). any particular reason for the crop not emptying on the 2 pigeons? will the meds take effect if they cant digest the food?


Trimethoprim Sulpha dosing from Clinical Avian Medicine states120mg's per kilogram everyday (QD). This is published w/out reference.

Trimethoprim Sulpha dosing from Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook for
Veterinarians states the dose rate is 60mg's per kilogram twice a day (BID).

fp


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

- As per the advice, Ive stopped giving them trip-sulpha, and started on baytril, 5 mg per bird, twice a day 
- Will get hold of Medistatin by tomorrow.
- The earlier dosage I had given to my pigeons was tri-sulpha for 10 days (25 mg per bird), and baytril for 10 days (5 mg per bird), twice per day.
- Had treated some of birds for canker when they were squabs (the ones which had yellow boils on their skin, 2-3 years back), now Ive forgotten which ones I had medicated. Any symptoms I should look out for currently? Does canker come back even if its been taken care of once?
- How do I adminsiter a garlic cap  
- they smell normal from the beaks. Just one of them has pungent poops.
- And uh, they really can't fly. They are just sitting on the ground!


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

Ok 1 more thing...
Pigeon 2, even though healthier than pigeon 3, is less lively, and sits with ruffled plumage.... and the others dont.... the chevita site says it might be either Coccidiosis or worms. My question is, can I medicate them for worms (Pyrantel) or coccidiosis (Trimethoprim-Sulpha) alongside the baytril Im already medicating it with...

Is it also possible that this pigeon might just have a simple cold or something...? Please do reply...


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I finish 1 med and then give some probiotics and give few days off and start the other meds. I dont want too much stress on the birds.


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

Could not get any medastatin  the friggin med shop for animals didnt even know what that was... btw my pigeons are now having difficulty swallowing stuff, pungent mouths n droppings etc etc... and some inflamed white spots inside their mouths... Please Please PLEASE tell me the names of any other anti-fungal meds that could work... some human meds maybe...? I really want to save my pigeons!!!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hold on, I'm going to get you a link...are you noticing a sour smell to the
symptoms or the droppings?

fp


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

Fortfun,

People may disagree with me but based on my experience with Paratyphoid, Baytril won't work well unless it's given at 5mg twice a day, not once. It's a very stubborn infection and it needs a high level of Baytril to be maintained in the blood stream in order for it to work 24/7. If the level in the blood stream drops, the illness gains a better foot hold.

Medistatin is sold by Foys for one.
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/misc_meds/index.html

These birds may have now come down with a secondary canker infection so you would also need a drug like Spartrix or Ronidazole. If you have Metronadazole, use that but use it in addition to the Baytril, not in place of it.

You've got a lot of trouble in your coop now and things are probably going to get worse before they get better. Hang in there and do the best you can.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm going to give you the link to the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

So many times answers to questions folks have are to be found in the
"Stickies" in that section. Now, here is the link from that same section
to the Pij Supply Houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

And from Jedd's within the above link:

http://www.jedds.com/Products.asp?MainCategoryID=71&SubCategoryID=758

Medistatin is the same as Nystatin. Global's carries Glostatin which is
Global's version of Nystatin. Nystatin is basically a topical or contact medication for yeast infections if that is what you have. You can also get
Itraconazole from Medsmex.com and some of the pet pharmacies on line will
carry a product called Fish Fungus from Thomas Labs which is Ketoconazole.
Both Itraconazole and Ketoconazole are systemic anti-fungals, Itraconazole 
being the safest and most recommended for birds. Even still, it can be hard on the liver.

You don't have your general location listed in your info so I don't know
where you are located and this can make quite a difference in the information
to give you or that you can actually use. If you are able to use the Pigeon
Supply House links, you should also keep on hand some Spartrix, Ronidazole
and or Metronidazole--at least two of the Canker meds so that you can 
rotate. Same would hold true for Coccidiostat meds and wormers. Hope things work out for your birds.

fp


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

Well, yes it could be called a sourish, pungent smell... Also the poops are very sticky and often sticks to their butts... & their mouths are almost dry with stringy mucus forming in their mouth... and the aforementioned inflammed white thingys... one of the pigeons sits with permanently ruffled up feathers now...

Ive also checked out wikipedia for nystatins, and found quite a few brand names (though all are for human use)...

Please do help me...


ps. I do give them baytril 5 mg, twice a day... doing this for the last 4 days...


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

I live in India... so thats a huge problem for me re: finding meds for birds...  I couldn't find a SINGLE vet which specialises in birds in my city, and the only medical shop specifically for animals didnt have any medistatin...

btw I found some nyastatin brands on the net, could you please tell me which ones out of these could be given safely for pigeons...?

Nystan 
Infestat 
Nystamont 
Nystop 
Nystex 
Mykinac 
Nysert 
Nystaform 
Nilstat 
Korostatin 
Mycostatin
Mycolog-II 
Mytrex 
Mykacet 
Myco-Triacet II 
Flagystatin II 


btw another question - is it necessary to medicate them for canker as well? Because Im not sure if Im seeing any canker symptoms...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

How long did you give the Trimethoprim Sulpha for? This medication does
treat for Coccidiosis.

There is a way to figure a once a day dosage for Baytril, though I agree w/pigeonperson that it's better that you medicate your bird every 12hours 
for Paratyphoid, it's a crippler and killer and I wouldn't take any chances w/the
disease. You can also look in the Resource Section for a Sticky on Baytril
Dosing as well as Nooti's drug formulary which has dosing for Baytril in it as well.

If you want to treat for worms, and you are dosing w/Baytril morning and
night, pick a time mid-day and treat for the worms. Likewise, give Probiotics
mid-day to help off set the antibiotic. You might also want to consider treating
for worms naturally w/Chaparrel Tea as per TreesGray's natural remedies seeing as your birds have a lot going on right now and this would be a gentler
approach to give them relief for worms w/out knocking their socks off....

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Do you know approximately how much these birds weigh?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I've read that visitors to India can obtain medicine by telling the hotel where
they are staying what they need, is this so and is it an option for you?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I didn't look all of these up but did google them randomly and they all seem
to be topicals as oposed to Oral medication that treats by making contact
w/the yeast. Big difference. The important thing to remember is that
the antifungal med must be rated for taking internally. If for human, get 
back here and folks can help you w/the dosing.

I would treat for canker simultaneously w/the Paratyphoid treatment.
I don't tend to think of Yeast as causing a pungent or sour smell to 
droppings. I think if you have some canker meds, I'd start them ASAP,
as Canker is an optortunistic disease that is always present and goes
into the disease state during times of stress. One way a bird gets 
stressed is through another illness or through injury.

fp




fortfun2 said:


> I live in India... so thats a huge problem for me re: finding meds for birds...  I couldn't find a SINGLE vet which specialises in birds in my city, and the only medical shop specifically for animals didnt have any medistatin...
> 
> btw I found some nyastatin brands on the net, could you please tell me which ones out of these could be given safely for pigeons...?
> 
> ...


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

I had given tri-sulpha for about 15 days, and baytril for 10 days after that... this was about a month back when they first started showing symptons of paratyphoid/coccidiosis/worms... had given them pyrantel also twice, as per the required dosage... The pigeons became better for a while, but since a week back they are worse than ever  

had started on tri-sulpha for 3 days NOW, but switched to baytril after posting this thread

a few questions
- what do I need to treat for now (other than baytril, which is going on)
- canker treatment necessary? (does it also get rid of fungi?)
- is treatment for worms necessary? (since Ive already given them adequate dosages of pyrantel about a month back)


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> I've read that visitors to India can obtain medicine by telling the hotel where
> they are staying what they need, is this so and is it an option for you?
> 
> fp


well, if it works, I certainly wont hesitate to try it! But it suppose it takes them a long time to obtain it themselves... will look into it...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

fortfun2 said:


> I had given tri-sulpha for about 15 days, and baytril for 10 days after that... this was about a month back when they first started showing symptons of paratyphoid/coccidiosis/worms... had given them pyrantel also twice, as per the required dosage... The pigeons became better for a while, but since a week back they are worse than ever
> 
> had started on tri-sulpha for 3 days NOW, but switched to baytril after posting this thread
> 
> ...



Treat herbally for worms, and after the Paratyphoid treatment is over, worm
again w/two follow ups. Then treat in this same way 3 times per year, also
w/2 follow up treatments.

Yes, treating for Canker is necessary.

You need to be careful about yeast/fungal growth because of all of the
antibiotic treatments. Put 1-2 tablespoons of Apple Cider Vinegar in one
gallon of water and give them this for drinking water, hopefully you aren't
dosing Baytril through their drinking water.

I need to run, hope this helps and hopefully pigeonperson will be around for 
a bit more for more questions that you may have.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

BTW, Flagystatin II is a combination topical skin treatment that has Nystatin
and Flagyl combined. Flagyl as a stand alone medication does not treat for
Yeast, and Nystatin as a stand alone medication does not treat for Trichomonas
nor does it act as an antibiotic.

fp


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

thanks a lot feralpigeon! 

Im all out of canker meds so Ill get metronidazole within today...
will look for a oral nyastatin as well...
ACV is already given to them via water (baytril orally)

Heres praying that my pigeons get well soon!


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

fortfun,
There's always a possibility that the birds are over what was probably paratyphoid and with all that medication, you may be dealing with a combination of canker and yeast infection. It's impossible to say over web. Is it possible that you can get one bird with typical symptoms over to a vet for fecal testing to find out just what you are dealing with?


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

pigeonperson said:


> fortfun,
> There's always a possibility that the birds are over what was probably paratyphoid and with all that medication, you may be dealing with a combination of canker and yeast infection. It's impossible to say over web. Is it possible that you can get one bird with typical symptoms over to a vet for fecal testing to find out just what you are dealing with?


(sigh)... I wish I could... I have tried looking for a vet who specialises in birds, but in vain... the vets who look at dogs/cats/etc know jack about birds in my area...

Anyways I was looking up the chevita site for the nth time, and found SOME of the symptoms to be pretty similar to the ones my pigeons are having - http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/respiratorytract_infectious catarrh.htm

specifically the part which says "When the beak is opened, stringy mucus can be seen stretching from the retrolingual region to the palate."... 

Is stringy mucus also possible by canker...? Or is it something specific to Infectious catarrh (Coryza) ...?

Sorry, but without the vets in my area, I have to shoot in the dark a bit...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

fortfun2 said:


> (sigh)... I wish I could... I have tried looking for a vet who specialises in birds, but in vain... the vets who look at dogs/cats/etc know jack about birds in my area...
> 
> Anyways I was looking up the chevita site for the nth time, and found SOME of the symptoms to be pretty similar to the ones my pigeons are having - http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/respiratorytract_infectious catarrh.htm
> 
> ...




I think things would get pretty yucky inside their mouths if they had yeast
and canker combined. You've sure given them a cannon load of antibiotics.
In your travels looking for meds, see if you can get Nystatin or better,
Itraconazole. Pill form if possible as opposed to Capsule w/those tiny beads
inside.

BTW, you didn't say, is it true that folks can just ask at hotels for meds and
the hotel staff procures for them? And if so, why is this true, do you have
drugstores where you can purchase medications w/out a prescription if you
know what to ask for?

fp


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

Well good news!  Got hold of Metronidazole (Metrogyl 400) and Itraconazole...

Now what I need to know is -
- what mg I should give to each of the pigeons
- how many times a day
- is it ok to give them these meds while I am giving them baytril

thanks!

as for your question feralpigeon-
There are places in India, where- to put it dramatically- you can get anything you want if you look in the right place  There are places from where you can get fake doctors prescriptions for whatever meds you need/want/etc etc if you have the moolah and the know-how... so Im sure the hotels, if the thing about them procuring meds is true (cant verify it myself), have some sort of arrangement in place!


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

(BUMP)

Um guys? I really need to know the dosage  
Its the only reason Im holding out & not administering any of the meds I just procured to them pigeons... so it would be really nice if you could advise me on the last three questions...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

fortfun2 said:


> Well, yes it could be called a sourish, pungent smell... Also the poops are very sticky and often sticks to their butts... *& their mouths are almost dry with stringy mucus forming in their mouth*... and the aforementioned inflammed white thingys... one of the pigeons sits with permanently ruffled up feathers now...
> 
> ps. I do give them baytril 5 mg, twice a day... doing this for the last 4 days...


Sounds like advanced canker.

Cindy


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

fortfun,

A dog and cat vet can still do gram stain tests on the droppings for yeast and bacteria so I do urge you to try to get this bird over to a vet or at least, the droppings.

For Metronadazole, multiply .05 X the gram weight of the bird so if you have a 300 gram bird, you would give 15 mg twice a day.

I only had occasion to use Itraconazole once and the dose was one ml twice a day but I wouldn't want to give a generalized dose when I don't really know what it is but it's a relatively safe drug except for African Grey parrots.

I would space these medications out. Giving them all at once could easily make the bird sick and throw up. Try the Metronadazole one hour before you give Itranconazole and then give Baytril one hour after that.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Is the Itraconazole in liquid or pill form? 

It is one of the few drugs that I don't have a formula for because we seldom use it. I know that it requires some special handling because our vet no longer makes it up and, instead, sends the prescription to a pharmacy to make it up for us. We always get it in a suspended form. 

The following is a link to a post I made about a dove that was given Itraconazole. The suspension was, oddly enough, Coca-Cola. 

I hope someone else will be on soon who knows more about this formula than I do. I would hesitate to tell you to use the amount we did because a dove weighs so much less than a pigeon, plus I don't know what strength your Itraconazole is so please wait for someone else to advise you rather than using what I posted for the little dove. That is for informational purposes only.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=117731&postcount=1


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## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

ok thanks! 
hmm Ive got tablets for itraconazole (100 mg)
so that would make it 2-3 mg per bird per day... right?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I honestly don't know. Lets wait until someone who does know comes on.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

fortfun2 said:


> ok thanks!
> hmm Ive got tablets for itraconazole (100 mg)
> so that would make it 2-3 mg per bird per day... right?


This is quoted from the IVIS site: http://www.ivis.org/advances/Kearns/kearns2/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1

_A variety of systemic antifungal agents, including ketoconazole (30 mg/kg PO q 12 h), itraconazole (10 mg/kg PO q 12 h), fluconazole (15 mg/kg PO q 12 h), terbinafine (10 - 15 mg/kg PO q 12 - 24h), and amphotericin B (1.5 mg/kg IV q 8h x 3 days) have been used successfully in the treatment of avian aspergillosis._

Terry


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