# Californian Tumblers?



## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

I have a West of England Tumbler cock and a Russian Tumbler hen paired up. I know the initial babies will be just considered mixed or crossbred pigeons, but do you think through a line on inbreding..even though it will be years..could I create a new breed of pigeon all my own and call it a Californian Tumbler? Also, has anyone seen a woe and rt mix?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

A WOE russian tumbler mix would look a lot like a WOE, Crest is recessive so none of the first young would carry it, Once the young were paired together 1:4 would be crested.

What charecteristics would be different about your breed to the WOE or russian tumbler? You can't just create a cross of two breeds, line breed, and call the bird a new breed unless you pick some differences to other existing breeds and line breed for the traits needed to show these differences. As an example, You could put a fantail onto a russian tumbler or WOE and create fantailed tumblers that fit one of the standards for everything else. From there I think you need to find a certain amount of other fanciers to take on the breed, Once you have enough you can apply to the NPA to have the breed recognised but you would need others commitments that they would continue with the breed and IMO a WOE RT mix would not be anything exciting which would make finding fanciers to take them on diffucult.

If wanting to play around for fun thats fine but there is a lot involved in creating a new breed that is recognised and also breeds true to type time and time again.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

All the pigeon breeds are developed from the basic feral pigeons that we see on streets every day, for creating a new breed one needs to know the general/basic genetics and then research extensively and breed accordingly to produce what you are looking for 

I heard that one will take many years to produce a particular breed, like 50 years!!


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

@NZ Pigeon. Ok, thanks. Youre right not much difference in the breeds shouldnt really matter. So I can put my NWOETC bands on the mix babies...I mean they are part WOE. Its like the same as a person who is half this and half that having a flag of one of their ethnicities right? But I dont know about the band size fitting the mixs especially with their feathered feet.

@Pijlover..thats kinda why I was asking now...im 22...I really have nothing but 50-70 years left anyway(hopefully)..so I got nothing but time to make it happen. I mean I can race and show and still have fun breeding new birds along with refining my Homers..


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It can be done in 10 years with a lot of birds and extensive breeding. I have put a new colour into a breed here in NZ and they are looking to type within 2 years, ( 4 crosses ) however, a lot of selection is still required with the young as they do not breed true yet.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I would not band the birdswith west bands unless they are pure west, Otherwise you risk someone getting the bird in the future and setting the breed back a little. Better to get some ID bands.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I would not band the birdswith west bands unless they are pure west, Otherwise you risk someone getting the bird in the future and setting the breed back a little. Better to get some ID bands.


Youre right.Right on ill take that advice. Ill keep these 2013 bands as trophies from my first club and my first bands. ID bands are better. Im really only a member of the NWOETC cause its my favorite breed. Lol, plus they have a really cool club patch I been meaning to order. .


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> It can be done in 10 years with a lot of birds and extensive breeding. I have put a new colour into a breed here in NZ and they are looking to type within 2 years, ( 4 crosses ) however, a lot of selection is still required with the young as they do not breed true yet.


hi NZ
It depends on what you are trying to get, i agree that my knowledge is not very thorough about breed and genetics but color is something that you can get easily but other qualities may get longer period to achieve like what about pouters, modena etc

I will really love to see the color that you have developed, congrats


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree colour is a lot easier as its visible and simple in its genetics. 

I may have misunderstood what you meant, I agree if someone was to try recreate a breed like frillback, modena, cropper etc from a wildtype rock dove it would take 50 years and more, and they would need to wait for the mutation to occur naturally which would take a lot of breeding of wild type birds. 

However, If using existing breeds as Kingdizon mentions he may like to do it would not take as long as you can pick up the enhanced mutant genes from other fancy pigeon breeds.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

kingdizon said:


> Youre right.Right on ill take that advice. Ill keep these 2013 bands as trophies from my first club and my first bands. ID bands are better. Im really only a member of the NWOETC cause its my favorite breed. Lol, plus they have a really cool club patch I been meaning to order. .


You could use them on future wests you breed as ID bands, I am a believer of keeping specific bands on correct breeds but I am not against putting the wrnog year band on aslong as you keeo good records of the birds age etc.


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