# Chow Time for Dove Baby...



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just thought to post a little casual image of a Baby dove chowing down in the nose-bag.

She was brought to be from some situation where the Nest was on blown down and the sibling perished already...she was bruised up, dehydrated, and not feeling good at all...

Anyway, did a few hours of rehydration then on to some thin chow, and this image is of her the next day, pushing for all shes worth with those little Legs, to chow down with her little tiny Beak in that BIG old soft clear rubber Nipple.

Usually I use a smaller one, or the cut off end of one like this, but I tried the full blown 'Squeaker' size Nipple and she was fine with it...her whole head in fact fits into the top of it just fine...!

Little Doves are so sweet....and they seem to flap their Wings SO much faster than Baby Pigeons do...when being fed, those little Wings are just-a-a blurr...!

Anyway, keeping her stuffed...and she seems very happy and bright.

She can sure put it away, too...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway, forgot I had made an image previously...this being the evening of her first day here, when she was still feeling poorly from her ordeals.

So, this is her having some thin supper after some hours of rehydration time, and you can sort of tell how she is not feeling well yet, was still somewhat droopy and dim, but she was interested in eating, so she got fed a few rounds of thin food in the tiny Nipple version...then, she graduated in no time, to the Big-League Nipple for seriously Crop stuffing satisfaction for her subsequent meals...

Lol...

And some of my motive, aside from showing off how cute she is, is to remind anyone not familiar with the practice, to consider the advantages for them and us, for letting them feed from the Nipple...it is so easy, and natural for them, and as in her case presently, her chow is lots of small whole Seeds mixed with nutrituous formula and other goodies...and she is a very assertive little Baby too, and comes trotting out when called and pushes for all she's worth for her Beak to be in the thing for her to gobble and eat...

So we do chow-time, and a while of Hand-Nest and dozey warm...then I get back on to whatever else I was needing to do here, till her next meal...


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 


What a little cutie and I emphasize the word little! LOL Sure is an enthusiastic little one, head burried up to the eyes in the nipple, hehehhehehee.

Is it a mourning dove, white winged dove or other kind? Hard to tell from your picture.

Sounds like this little bird will do well now that it's been rescued.


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

How tiny and darling! She couldn't have found a better feeder / hand nester Keep the pictures of that tiny wonder coming.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


I only see Morning Doves here, so I expect that is her Species...but you never know, I might just get some other kind one of these days...

She is small..!

And here-abouts anyway, that is the deal with them, they are small, or smaller...and that is how they are.

They are REALLY 'small' of course when infants...but usually when I get them they are Canker Babys of ten or twelve days of age or so, or Hawk attacked Nest, where the Nest was messed up and knocked most of the way down, and the other sibling carried off and the survivor having had a fall...or, as she is, a basically healthy little 'peeeeeper' whose Nest got wind blown down, so she had a roungh fall and tumble anyway, some time on the ground in the heat and dry winds, beat odds with the Cats Dogs and Kids, and luckily, got found and brought to me for the rest of her care and raising to get to happen.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Phil,

She is just precious.

You really are quite the "Daddy" to all these needy babies....good work!

Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What a little doll! Definitely an eager eater  

Terry


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## Heather-Mole (May 16, 2006)

*Hey Everyone.....Phil......*

Hi

Phil i was wondering about this nipple thingy....because it might come in handy with mine

How does it work....whats it made from ? and what do you feed them  

Lol i know im annoying but this really might help me 

Heather


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Heather, 


Oh, not annoying at all...

I posted this thread with the hope that it would encourage or interest others to adopt the method.

The 'Nipple' is a regular, soft, every-day, people-baby-bottle-nipple...and it does not matter if it is clear, tan, or colored.

The food one makes for these Babys, the Doves especially, is important, since they are eating as active agents, eating volentarily, it is important that the taste and temperature and texture be suitable for them, for them to enjoy it.

When people force-feed, the Bird has no discretion to turn up their little Beak or to refuse, from bad taste or wrong temperature or wrong texture.

For the tiniest Beaks, I merely use the cut-off 5/8ths or 3/4 inch or so 'cup end' of a Nipple, and for older larger Beaks, I use the very nearly whole Nipple or a whole one, depending in it's style, but minus the flange always, which is the flat collar that allows it to be held on to the Baby Bottle by the screw on ring or end...so I use Scizzors, and cut the flange off so it will not be in the way.

I gotta run now, but I will explain more later today sometime...


Best wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## christina11 (Jan 20, 2006)

I feed my dove the formula but I just geuss the tempature like a light warm.

Can you use hot tap water or is boiled better?

And can you reheat the formula after its been used sometimes the dove will move its head spilling some if it [Which I try to avoid] maybe In a pan we dont own a microwave because unhealthy it is.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Christina11, all...



I just went ahead and started a little album on the 'Fokti' site...


I posted some images showing the Nipples and some text explaining them.

http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


The following are my opinions which describe some of my method or appreciations.


Uhhhhhh...'warm' wise, the formula/food should be something close to one's own Body temperature...which if tested on the underside of one's wrist, would feel like no temperature, when it is right.

Of course, one should never, ever, use a 'Microwave; to warm the formula/food. It can make unexpected 'hot spots' which can injure their mouth, throat or crop.


To warm it, it is very easy and convenient to simply have have the formula/food in a little cup, like a regular old-time Tea Cup, or some thing similar and smallish, and have "that" in a pan of Hot Water, and stirr it as it comes up to temp...testing it now and then.

The just leave the Tea Cup with the formula/food in it, IN the pan of medium Hot Water, and carry that whole thing to where you are going to feed the Baby(s).

The Water in the Pan does not matter as for hether it as initially hot or cold tap Water, so long as one dies not use it to add to the formula/food.

The best way to mix the formula/food, is to combine whatever dry ingredients one is going to use, and pour on enough good pure clean Water, to cover them with about 3/8ths of an inch additional clear Water sitting on top, then let the whole thing sit for 20 minutes or a half hour or so, and one can let it sit in thr fridge for that matter, and THEN, stirr and warm and add ones 'wet' ingredients and add more Water if needed to get the consistancy right.

If done this way, there are never any lumps, and 'lumps' can be dangerous for them, as the lump can stick to their throat or Crop and make serious problems...so, the formula/food needs to be quite homogeneous...

Then, just spoon what is needed into the Nipple, let the Baby eat, spoon some more into the Nipple, let them eat another round, or as may be, till the Baby has eaten enough for a nice full Crop, or as may be appropriate for them for that meal.

Make new formula/food each day from scratch ingredients, and refrigerate or freeze between warm-up/feed-times.

If you for sure Freeze it between warm-up feed-times, likely it would be good for several days use, but if it is refridgerated between uses, only use it for that one day, and discard whatever is left at the end of the day.

Never use Hot 'tap' Water for adding TO the formula/food, as is can and reliably does contain various anaerobic bacteria one would best not put into a Baby.

Use Cold tap Water, only if you let it run fairly hard for a minute or two to clear out the rust and other gunk almost every one's water lines will have in them...or, best of all, use some good quality purified Water for mixing into their formula/food...

Formula/food should be fairly liquidy, about like Melted Ice Cream would be, or even a little thinner/soupier is fine.


More later...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feather17 (Feb 25, 2006)

Phil, you've done wonders with this little baby. 
It's so impressive how you've got these birds to respond-you should be working in a wildlife preserve. I can't imagine anyone with more knowledge and dedication. 
I'm so glad you were there for this guy and Mr. PJ Slingbird.
Also- 
Your albums are fantastic. The photos and the commentary are so informative. Thank you so much for sharing!


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## dovegirl (Apr 15, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> And some of my motive, aside from showing off how cute she is, is to remind anyone not familiar with the practice, to consider the advantages for them and us, for letting them feed from the Nipple...it is so easy, and natural for them, and as in her case presently, her chow is lots of small whole Seeds mixed with nutrituous formula and other goodies...and she is a very assertive little Baby too, and comes trotting out when called and pushes for all she's worth for her Beak to be in the thing for her to gobble and eat...
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Phil, will this work with baby pigeons?

Thanks
Ellie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Oh, what a little cutie!

I'm so glad she has graduated to the big League Nipple for some serious eating!  

I'm sure she will thrive in your care.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dovegirl said:


> Phil, will this work with baby pigeons?
> 
> Thanks
> Ellie



Hi Ellie, 


Yes, it works equally well for the Pigeons and the Doves, and likely would work just as well for any Columbiforme Baby of whatever sub-type.

Since all the Columbiforme Babys eat by by inserting their Beak into the throat of their parent, for the parent to bring up food for the Baby to gobble, the Nipple resembles this arrangement sufficiently close-enough, for the Baby to find it easy and natural.

And so one merely lets them eat in their own way of it, by allowing the Nipple to provide the tactile familiarity and instinctual comfort, and, by making foods which will be both nutritious and enjoyed.


If one is sensitive enough and has enough finesse, sometimes, it is also possible to inspire sub adults or young adults or even older adults to eat this way in some situations. I have had feral sub adults whose Wattles were almost 'white' and some adults even who were long since grown up, who had been hit by Cars and were not interested in eating at all...

And in some cases, I was able to inspire them to eat this way, and they behaved like giant 'Peeeepers' even making squeaking sounds and shoulder pumping...

Then, after a few days, they reverted 'back' to being grown ups, and resumed pecking and self feeding again. But I think the invitation to be fed like-a-baby was somehow meaningful to them to feel welcomed and safe and understood...and so in these cases, it also helped their moralle as well as helped me get some food into them, where otherwise, they would not have eaten at all, or I would have had to resort to 'The Tube'...

So, the 'invitation' sometimes is quite important for one to do...and I will describe that further down here in another post.

One sometimes needs to establish for the Bird, that one is inviting them to be fed, so the Bird will understand the situation.

Some Babys are so anxious that the 'invitation' is hardly necessary, but others are not and would not undwerstand or accept, and they need to be 'invited'.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway...

"The Invitation"


Whether a Baby or youngster is 'Nuzzleing' is very important.

Nuzzleing is their way of asking to be fed, of looking for their Parent's throat, or their hopeing something like it will magically appear somehow to feed them.

Hence, for some more than other, but it is best TO 'do' with all, regardless...one does best to invite them to be fed, so that they will accept and understand your intentions in that regard, and, in terms they understand which are unambiguous and positive.

The 'invitation' I worked out, is as follows -


One moisten one's finger tips in warm Water, and instantly, gently, massages the sides of their Beak down toward it's root. One does this from the front, and for older Babys, one does it from their eye level or a little lower.

One only does it for a second or two, and while one is doing it, or actually, just before one starts it, one vocalizes to them a sound which in their language says " I would like to feed you!"...

The sound I use is a kind of low, slowish "ooooOOOOoooo! ooooOOOOoooo!" which is really almost like a 'moan' but with a positive happy tone to it. One makes this sound deep in one's throat in some way so it has a lot of vibration to it.

So, what I do is, I start out with saying the "ooooOOOoo! oooOOOOoo!" FIRST, in a low, slow, moan-like voice, with my lips almost closed completely...and, while doing this, I then I do the gentle, warm-moist-finger-tip Beak massage.

Sometimes 'just' the "ooooOOOooo! oooooOOooooo!" will get them going, and they understand it instantly and or are puzzled or half curious or half excited wondering if it is true.

Then, when combined with the Beak massage, they decide that the invitation is probably for real, and they will begin, even if tentatively, to 'peep' or 'squeak' and to shoulder-pump and 'nuzzle' in response, with their Beak.

Depending on the situation, I may offer electrolyte-Water initially, and off and on for a few hours, before I offer any food/formula...and in which case, 'that' is what the Nipple will contain for their first 'feed' which is really a 'drink'.

Once the Baby is Nuzzleing and asking TO be fed, and especially, once the Baby accepts that something good WILL happen, one merely holds the Nipple tilted slightly toward them, and gently guides their little Beak into it, or, one sort of moves the Nipple to where one pute it kind of around their Beak, and then lowers it, and they will drink or eat.

It is best to only fill the hollw back of the Nipple about 7/8ths full, so their Beak does not make it spill over.

For small Beaks which do not reach down quite all the way, one may squeeze the very bottom of the Nipple, fo push the food 'up' so their Beak can get to it as they eat their way 'down', or, one just re-fills it of course...

They eat by drinking and by 'gobbleing'.

Different lenths of Beak, different widths of Beak...will of course occupy more or less space in the Nipple, and many youngsters like to 'feel' something against the sides of their Beak when they are eating, so with these, one gently squeezes the Nipple to make it oval shape, so the sides of it gently press against the sides of their Beak at their Beak's root.

Others youngsters do not seem to care about this, and will gobble and drink just fine in the Nipple being 'round' and not pressing against their Beak sides at all.


This little Dove is like that, she is fine to eat without me squeezing the sides of the Nipple at all...but of course her little Beak does not reach down into the Nipple the whole way, so she only eats the top 2/3rds of the formula/food for any given round.

Some individuals more ethan others, and some not at all, like to eat with a sort of rythum, where they eat a little, then do a big swallow where they want to pull their head and neck 'back', then tyhey extend it out again, and this cadance is easy to do, or to initiate for them to respond to...where, one merely gently move the Nipple toward them somewhat, and they will pull in and swallow and then extend their head and neck again, then one move the Nipple away from them a little, and they follow. A little gentle experiment quickly shows if an individual Pigeon or Dove youngster, likes to do that or not.

But the 'Invitation' is very important for any Baby or youngster who for whatever reason, is not already 'Nuzzleing', so that they will understand what one has in mind, and accept to try it, to let you provide some food.


Out of many hundreds of Pigeon and Dove Babys, the only ones who did not immediately respond positively to the 'Innvitation' and to being fed in this way, were some very very few who had Candida or Sour Crop when I got them, and these then, once feeling better, were completely enthused and responsive and loved being fed just the same as any other 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker'.


Usually, I have any new-arrive Infant, Baby or Youngster, happily eating or drinking in the first five minutes of being here.

Some go completely wild for just hearing the "oooooOOooo!" and others when hearing it become certainly interested but remain reserved, then go wild once they feel the warm, damp, Beak Massage...and some, are sceptical or tentative, untill their Beak is THEN and only 'then' gently guided into a Nipple of Electrolyte Water, or nice, tasty chow...and then they are enthused and eager and full of assertion. Or, if they were truely feeling poorly on arrival, at least they DO drink willingly, and soon become animated with assertion and enthusiasm once they are feeling better.

This little Dove, took a couple three days to really regain her vigor, and at first she was definitely feeling sore and dim from her previous tramuas and Heat and whatever else...but she did respond positively at the onset, when the Invitation was done and some electrolyte Water was offered...she was just so weak and weary, her energy levels were low.

Soon though, she showed enthusiasm and all the normal dynamics of a healthy happy eager Baby...and while eating, she flaps her little Wings So fast, they are a blurr...


Phil
Las Veas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks Phil, for providing those pictures of your "nipple" technique and other info.  

Always nice to "see how" something is done. A picture, indeed, can be worth many words!

Beautifully done!!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thank you, Phil. I also enjoyed the pictures. I'm definitely trying your nipple method the next time I have to hand feed a baby. It seems the closest to natural. I know how to tube them and have the equipment. It isn't difficult to do, but I don't like it. It's invasive and I'm always afraid of them developing other problems, such as sour crop.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdmom4ever,


I do not know how many hundreds of Babys I have raised over the years, but I have never had one develop any Crop stasis or Crop problems.

I have had Babys or youngsters arrive to me, who had Sour Crops or Crop stasis, either from having eaten some foreign object, or from some other reason such as falls and bruising/contusion possibly.

Too, I had always made up their formula/food from scratch ingredients, and only recently began useing any manufactured powders such as 'Kay Tee' or 'Hagen' or others.

I think these are great to have on hand, but I still add things to them, or even add 'them' to my more or less old mixes of things.

I will write some more later on my food ideas.

But for a long time, I just made their formula out of more or less raw ingredients, and everyone thrived nicely and had perfect nice Feathers and so on...

I am STILL trying to get to where I am willing to stuff them like their Pigeon parents usually do! I was always scared to over-fill them, but once again, having to ferals raising their two ( 21 days old and over 400 grams each , of ) Babys right here next to my desk, I see as ever I saw already, that they stuff them silly...these Baby's Crops have often been SO big as to be fully one third or 2/5ths the total length and mass of the Baby...! even from an early age...

Where, me being conservative, I tended to feed 'my' Babys 'just' so they looked comfortably full to me...and called it good enough till the next meal.

But from now on I will be stretching my old ways, and endevor more to emulate the wild'feral parent's wisdoms and practices, to fill them up more than I used to, of course making sure they are comfortable with it, and gradually easing them into it if any doubts should recommend prudence...and little Dove Baby is the so-far recipient of my new ways, and it seems to agree with her just fine...but still, I am being conservative, but each time I do a little more, and I will see how it goes...

I think when they have abundantly feeding parents, their Crops in fact grow or stretch TO accept huge amounts, and most of the orphan feral Babys I have gotten, probably did not have parents able to suply quite so much as to do that, so I was used to smaller Crops and hence, feeding frequent smaller meals to them.

Too, having these two raising their Babys so close and all, I see that they feed all the time, and the Crops never empty or anything close even...the Babys Crops are always 'full'...and mom and dad just keep topping them off through out the day and evening.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Phil, thank you so much for including all the critical details. Over and above the nutritional aspect, this technique seems to also provide emotional support. I especially appreciate your explaination of "The Invitation". Speaking their language certainly makes the transition much easier.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TerriB said:


> Phil, thank you so much for including all the critical details. Over and above the nutritional aspect, this technique seems to also provide emotional support. I especially appreciate your explaination of "The Invitation". Speaking their language certainly makes the transition much easier.



Hi TerriB,



Yes...

I feel that their emotional comfort, their feeling recognised and interacted with in terms which for them suggest safety and some order of reciprocal communication, is especially important for the ill, the injured or frail from privation Babys or Adults, as well as provideing a welcome comfort for the otherwise healthy logistically orphanned Baby or youngster.

I have seen quite 'dim' and despondant ones, Adults as well as Babys or Youngsters, become quite transformed once they see reason in their terms, to decide there is recognition, deference, and other suggestions of welcome, safety and hope.

Food of course is very important to Babys especially, and is quite intimate with their emotional life and the emotional language of their well being. Likely, their appreciation of being fed, is pretty well entirely of an emotional language, and is combined with the tactile and viscerotonic experience which for them would be embued with the deference and tenderness their parents communicate to them in feeding them. even as having been sat on for warmth and looked gently in on for status-report nuances, was or may remain emotionally meaningful for their feelings of well being, safety, and comfort.



If they decide things are not favorable, some may still pull through of course, and many do in spite of whatever anxiety or conflict or frustration they may feel about their situation, while others will perish even if force fed adequately, or otherwise cared for in general medical/nutritional terms, if they decide they do not like the way things are going.

I remember seeing this in Babys I would get when it was all new to me, and somehow I managed to muddle through by experiment and intuition, to turn them around most times with various gestures, Hand Nest, and wishing to emulate what I had glimpsed feral parents doing. And this made me realize that in some occasions certainly, their moralle can be crucial to their decision to survive and see what comes next. As well of course, as regard their happiness and easy regardless.

This too, in their own ways and terms, with older or adult Pigeons or Doves too of course...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...

A little social-time with her neighbor Squabs...they had not met previously, but seemed quite content spending time together.

None of these three had pecked before, but soon, all three of them were pecking little Seeds I put there for them...and getting some of them too..!

And, also, each of the giant Squabs was preening little Dove-Baby, and she was preening both of them off and on also...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Great Picture, Phil !!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks mr squeaks..!

It was a happy little social time for them, and fun to watch.

These are the two 'Squabzillas' or 'Squabosaurous' which are the Babys of a feral Pair who came in here and made-a-nest.

I have never seen such HUGE Babys before, and I guess this can happen when the Seeds are easy, and there is not much else TO do but feed one's Babys...! Lol...

Anyway, mom-and-dad are friendly and were happy to have a little time with their Suabs being in 'Vacation Day School' for a few hours, so they could have a little respite from them. Now, both of these younsters are pecking and one at least knows to drink Water from the Bowl...so, seeing this, mom-and-dad are proud of their Baby's accomplishments...

Little Dove is of course beginning to peck also, and with a few more rounds of Social Time for the three of them, they will all soon be accompliched pecking Birds...

I had with-held Seeds for some time from the mom-and-day so their two youngsters could have less full Crops, and weighing them, one was around 380 and the other 360 grams. When 'stuffed' they tip the 400 mark. 

I weighed little Dove Baby with her having a full Crop at the time, and she tipped the sales at 42 grams...

I recon they are all around the same age...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Phil,

What a darling picture. I can just see their camaraderie, picking and pruning each other.  

Thanks for sharing.


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## kathleen (Jan 5, 2007)

Hi Phil, this was really informative. I'm going to try it with Lullaby this afternoon. My husband is really good at the gavage feeding but I'm too chicken to try it and he doesn't get home until around 4:30. She had a feeding this morning at 7:30 with her meds and I was going to syringe feed her this afternoon but this looks much better for her. Since she is about adult size, how much of the nipple should I amputate?
Best, Kathleen


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