# ash red bronze



## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

have happen if i breed ash red and bronze? 
What color they produce?
do have sa pic or link of a ash red bronze pigeon?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Bronze doesn't show very well on ash-red. Just makes it a more bold red color and can add some red color or tint to the flights, tail, or other ash-colored parts.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah like Becky said its hard to identify on ash red

I have noticed a big difference in the depth of the red in frillbacks and my red grizzle racers when Kite bronze is added. I am not sure how other bronzes would react but I think Kite Bronze is one of the strongest.

Kite bronze ash reds are generally very deep rich reds, When dirty is added they are almost as dark as the deep brick red you expect from rec red birds.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Bronze doesn't show very well on ash-red. Just makes it a more bold red color and can add some red color or tint to the flights, tail, or other ash-colored parts.


I am thinking about that poor recessive red in a recent topic...


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

If you put ash red in bronze you will remove the black and replace it with silver.I have a young bronze/ash red right now ,I will get a picture of him when I have time,and post it.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

The baby on top has a silver rim and no black,we call these Markett's


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

thanks for all the reply and pic. That will help with my breeding


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Did you personally cross the ash red into show tipplers? Do you have pictures of the parents or the ash red if it was from a further generation?


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Yes I did make the original cross. The grandfather to these babies is a white long faced clean leg Tumbler that a friend loaned me for a year,I returned the bird. The grandmother is a Brander Bronze Show Tippler,that I still own. I only let them breed one round and I used the White on another breed. I raised 2 young White Tumblers ,a hen and cock.I gave the cock to a friend and I still have the hen ,I will post a picture of her.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I am not sure these Tipplers are ash-red. Or I should say, I beleive they are bronze and split recessive red (as per one definition of brander). Which means the 'markets' are no more than simple homozygous recessive reds. Whether they actually have ash-red in them or not becomes a moot point, since the bronze & recessive red combination would be epistatic to it.

This is just an observation though, I always try to be open minded and believe in the breeders' expertice, inc which case I would be excited to see pictures and breeding results published in the PGNL by the breeder, I've never heard of this combination (ash-red, bronze and RR), much less seen a specimen with this expression.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Hi rudolpf ,I have bred Brander bronze a lifetime. I have crossed almost every color out their into them, and I know if you cross ash red or silver into brander bronze you will breed Markets and brander bronzes. If you ask any breeder with experience in brander bronze, they will agree.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I am not sure these Tipplers are ash-red. Or I should say, I beleive they are bronze and split recessive red (as per one definition of brander). Which means the 'markets' are no more than simple homozygous recessive reds. Whether they actually have ash-red in them or not becomes a moot point, since the bronze & recessive red combination would be epistatic to it.
> 
> This is just an observation though, I always try to be open minded and believe in the breeders' expertice, inc which case I would be excited to see pictures and breeding results published in the PGNL by the breeder, I've never heard of this combination (ash-red, bronze and RR), much less seen a specimen with this expression.



I thought that it couldnt be recessive red because the beak is not flesh colored.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

That's right print tippler, recessive reds out of brander bronze always have flesh colored beaks ,and they always have a few white feather's in tail and in the body.They also have white toe nails.The two young brander bronzes in the picture both have rims in tail and tips. Recessive reds never have a rim anywhere.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Thanks for teaching me something new! This is exactly why I defer to breeder's experience.

I was also wondering about the statement about recessive red and flesh coloured beak, and come to think of it, I've never seen a RR with dark toenails or beak, though Huntley has an unimproved RR onhis site with a dark (though not black) beak. Just never thought about it before, and since none of the sources I have read specified a light beak or toenails on the RR, I always assumed that **** smokey was [partly] responsible.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Lovely birds! Although that is just one form of bronze  

Speaking of ash-red bronze, that's one way to get ribbon tails. Lebanons are ash-red t-patterns with bronze, dirty, and smokey. Adding het rec. red can help the red color but can also make the white parts off-white.


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

Ash-red hen,check,het kite,het rec red.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

jabadao said:


> Ash-red hen,check,het kite,het rec red.


This is exactly those dark ashes that people have been talking about in earlier forums. I still don't want to believe that ash-reds can have tails and flights this dark, but I have to agree that the evidence speaks for itself here.

I do think that dirty and maybe sooty is in the mix here too though. This bird has a very dark beak, unusual for ash-reds, and kite rarely displays so well in the flights without dirty, though the split RR definitely helps too.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Have you seen the tails and flights of my ash red nuns. They are called dun, and they look brown.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> Have you seen the tails and flights of my ash red nuns. They are called dun, and they look brown.


Wow - All three base colours on one bird? Ash red birds that are called dun that look brown???

Dun and brown can look similar I agree but ash red? 

I thought "red" nuns were recessive red.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

jabadao said:


> Ash-red hen,check,het kite,het rec red.


That sure is a nice bird, I have an ash red T pattern cock split check, split blue, Het Dirty and also het dilute. He is as Velvet as they come and carries the same red in the flights though not as extreme as this bird. 

Rudolph - you may remember the boy, Split for check, Bred an ash yellow split for Bar - you were suprised at how velvet she was for T pattern split bar, He has produced another one similar but this time paired to an ash red T pattern hen. The main reason I swapped the pairing is I decided I want nice Velvet yellows so a blue bar was not the best pairing for him, Easier than trying to start again with recessive red and dilute and IMO A good Velvet Ash Yellow is the next best thing. She is also better racing blood - am hoping to test some dilutes in a few years for racing ability aswell.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Have you seen the tails and flights of my ash red nuns. They are called dun, and they look brown.


I still cannot believe that these birds are ash-red. If they are, there must be something really strange going on to get the dark tail bar and dark flights. I don't think nuns have kite in them, so what could it be?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Quick summary about these nuns:
The color does not carry dun or the sexlinked recessive brown.
The pigeon on the left is a male (has fathered young) and his mother was black (father "brown" looking, as he is).
He is mated to a recessive red female and they got one black young and one "brown" looking one. So he is not recessive red.

I think that a lot of poor recessive reds may be such ash reds with extra's


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> Have you seen the tails and flights of my ash red nuns. They are called dun, and they look brown.


 24th June 2011, 10:18 AM
dimerro 

For me, this sibling looks like ash-red spread dirty and their nestmate looks like a dilute version of it. Maibe I'm wrong but this is my opinion.
__________________
Regards,
Dina Mergeani
www.dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The diluted one could be the lavender version of ash red spread (without dirty?).


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

jabadao said:


> Ash-red hen,check,het kite,het rec red.


thanks for the pic.


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