# Possible Pmv In Feral Pigeon!!!! Help!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, found a pigeon that pecks at and misses food, missing 3-8 times before getting it. also doing some seed tossing, or in this case "bread tossing."
what other things should i look for, as in symptoms to be sure he has this?? or symptoms of what else this could be??
also, what should i be using for a water dish?? i know it's not supposed to be wide or deep, right or wrong?? so what should i use for that? 
thanks!!!!!!!!!!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

HI Moxie,

You are a busy one aren't you ? This will help a little to the more experienced PMV people are along.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12250&referrerid=560

All the best,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yeah, if i could catch all the ones i find, i'd be in TROUBLE!!!!
ok, he seems pretty afraid. but doesnt have much fight in him. he stands with his tail in the air and his head kinda faced down. when i set him back in the box i have for him (temporary until i let ol' string injury go), i put him flat with his legs back, and tried to push him a little to get a reaction for him to stand up, and he just rolled back and forth while i was budging him. before i caught him, he would also toss bread backwards and do some spins. he was all by himself too, no other pigeons with him even though this guy was tossing food around. also, his eyes are a little yellow by pupil, but the reddish brown at edge, does that mean he's a teenager??
also, i tube fed him a tiny bit, but i only have one tube for feeding, should i not use it on the other birds, even if i put a new "tube" part that goes onto the syringe?? BB pigeon hasnt eaten since the "cast", so i've been tube-feeding, but now am afraid to with same syringe.....
i'll have to go get another tomorrow i guess....
yes, i've read that link before, that is where i found out about symptoms of PMV, if i hadnt of read it, i wouldn't think anything was wrong if i saw those symptoms.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

hi moxie it does sound pmv'sh, absolutely do not share water dish or feeding tube. i suppose u can use a different tube for each bird, but bb pigeon can eat on his own no? basically what you use on your pmv bird is only for the pmv bird. k?

oh, and you have to declare war on the poops of the pmv bird, keep it clean.

oh, and a photo please!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Moxie,

It would be best to get a whole new tube set up for any PMV birds you get, and these should still be cleaned and disinfected after using, makes a lot more work I know. However since you don't, and if this bird has to be feed or die, if you have some household bleach and mix this 1 part bleach to 10 parts water and soak the tube and syringe in this for 10-15 minutes, stirring from time to time, after using it on your PMV bird I would think you should be alright. I would then use regular soap and hot water to make sure all traces of the bleach solution are removed. As a further precaution you could also then sterilize in boiling water. Perhaps others have opinions on this. According to this link http://tinyurl.com/3a3age Newcastle's Disease, which is the same family as PMV I believe, can be neutralized with a bleach solution and as well as heat above 56 Celsius.

All the best,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i will get a photo up tomorrow, AIAS. oh, and BB hasnt been eating since the "cast" was put on. i was told that sometimes if birds/pigeons hate the contraptions we put on them SO much, they will stop eating and everything!! HUNGER STRIKE!! he's rebelling against authority!! he's gonna realize it takes a lot more than a hunger strike to get my sympathy!!! Just Jokin'!! 
oh, he's got me wrapped around his little toe!! too MUCH sympathy is what he's got!! but dont tell him, i'm tryin' a little reverse psychology on him, if the powers that be (me) dont care he doesnt eat, then maybe he'll eat!!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

OH!! jazaroo!! it says on that last link you gave me that PMV can infect humans and mammals, is that true!!!! are me and my cat gonna die, or go braindead???


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Moxie, no not at all! PMV is not zoonotic to humans (transmissible) or cats, the virus that causes PMV in pigeons is related to, but NOT the same as Newcastle's Disease, I just provided the link to show what it takes to neutralize a similar virus, Don't worry! However, as you can see they are hardy viruses, so make sure you practice very good hygiene and disinfection between handling your birds. Sorry for the scare.

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

should i be giving medicine to him?? or what should i be doing??


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

hi moxie is s/he loosing a lot of liquid through the poo? if so electrolytes are in order. also the acv formula is helpful, and i would start giving a garlic pill a day as well. all these are good for the bird and in no way endanger the bird as they are not heavy medicines.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> should i be giving medicine to him?? or what should i be doing?? i NEED some direction here!!!!


Moxie,
Did you click on the link that Ron provided in his first post? 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...referrerid=560
Cynthia explains the steps that should be taken.

Personally, I would not give the bird any medications just yet. 

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Medicine will not cure PMV (if it is PMV), take a look at all the supportive products Cynthia mentions on her thread, as well as what Aias has suggested.
Probiotics will also help with the wet poo.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He may be able to self feed from a deep dish. That's what I've had to do with the one that I've got. I don't put the water and the food in at the same time, though, I just rotate them. Less mess that way. Also, you can line the bottom of the cage with a stack of papers and pull the soiled top one off as needed. Just be careful to only take care of him last and always wash your hands thoroughly before touching anything else. That needs to be a religion with those kinds of birds to keep from spreading it.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,


That was well spotted, thank you for saving this pigeon. 

I never deprive PMV pigeons of drinking water because that can make the symptoms worse and hasten death. So what I do is put the water in a cup shaped container and only fill it 1/2 or 1/3 so that even if he contorts himself the pigeon can't drown.

I have one that is very badly affected at the moment, his head goes all over the place and when he is really stressed he falls on his back but when it comes to picking up seed or drinking he manages to control himself. 

Leave seed in the cage too, even if he tosses most of it away he will manage to get some down and as the days go by he will get better and better at it. The only one of my rescues that was not able to feed herself was Blackie and she was a fledgeling. 

The only disease that man has developed after handling a pigeon with PMV is mild conjunctivitis and that comes from handling the pigeon and then taking the fingers to the eye, so normal hygiene will protect yoiu from that. I believe that the same applies to Newcastles Disease.

Antibiotics given as a precaution against other infections can aggravate the disease, but pigeons with PMV are (apparently) susceptible to canker, cocci and aspergillosis so keep an eye on changes in his droppings , cheeselike growths in his mouth etc. I say "apparently" because the ones that I have rescued haven't suffered from any of those diseases or picked up any infection. All except Blackie are still completely healthy 6 + years later.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, i read the link and AIAS"S thread, but i didnt know if sometimes medicine is given or not, or what??
so you think with these symptoms he's definitely got it?? i feel real bad for him. one thing though, yesterday he was attacking a SEAGULL to keep away from the bread!! pretty tough little guy, huh??
i will re-read both threads to find out what type of stuff to give then, i just wanted to double check, as i dont want to do something when i have no idea what i'm doing...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My own rule is not to give medicine unless I know what I am aiming to treat.

As PMV is a virus there is no medicine to treat it with and giving it medicine without knowing whether it has an infection and what that infection is caused by could actually harm it.

As far as I am aware seed tossing and pecking at seed and missing are symptoms that are only associated with PMV. But even a healthy pigeon will toss bread. It just depends on how it is done, when it is caused by PMV it is clear that the pigeon is not in control and he staggers backward.

Did you see my seed tossing video on You Tube? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWC58llOBzQ

That is a good example of the seed tossing associate with PMV.



Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cynthis, how is the bird in the video doing?? that is so heartbreaking to watch!!
so, my guy is doing the seed tossing and pecking and missing. i really hate to watch it. he is very feral, so he fraks a little when i go to grab him.
is there any way it could just be that he's young and doesnt know how to aim for food or something??


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,

They don't all end up like poor Surrey. A lot of his flock died, others made a full recovery. He is the only one that survived without making a full recovery. They lived in a garden, with a dovecote and fresh food available to them. They were there when the house was bought and fortunately adopted by the new owner.

He is in an aviary with other PMV pigeons and I regard him as the wise old man of the group. He watches me calmly as I put down food or fresh water and then he is the first to partake.

I don't think that youth is contributing to the missing of seeds.

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Moxie,
If pecking and missing was the only symptom this bird had, then I might doubt the PMV diagnosis as well. But you said he also seed tosses, was doing some spins, AND having problems with balance, right? So that makes PMV seem more definitive. No stargazing, huh? If you post a pic, people should be able to tell you if it's a juvenile/teenager bird anyway. 
Good luck with this one! I don't know how you do it, school plus all these rescues?? If I didn't have Aias to do all the work here... well these pijies would be in trouble!!
Sabina


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i talked to a rehabber lady up here, and she said it might be TRICHOMOSIS, or however you say/spell it.. 
she said she hasnt ever seen PMV here though, and hasnt had anyone in MASSACHUSETTS have a problem with it. so she said to give him FLAGYL, but if it is PMV, will flagyl hurt him Cynthia??
what should i do here???


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,

Trichomoniasis is canker: http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/canker.htm

I can't think of any symptoms canker shares with PMV except that pigeons spit out the food because they can't swallow it so maybe she thought you were confusing spitting out the seed with seed tossing? Have you checked inside its mouth?

If it has canker then Flagyl is a good treatment and the good that it would do would outweigh other considerations. 

I think that one of my recent rescues has canker in the throat beyond the point that I can see. He came to my attention because he ate a peanut then stretched his body up into a "penguin" posture.

Cynthia


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## ronhoward (Mar 16, 2007)

*Pmv*

I have unfortunately a lot of experience with pPMV1 in pigeons. It is transmittable to humans, but only as a mild flu like virus, i.e., slight fever. It is similiar, but not the same as New Castle. The depth of any water dish does not matter, as long as he can't climb into it. I had a pigeon with pPMV1 almost drown in less than an inch of water because he couldn't stay standing.
Dang, have to leave, I'll try to return in a couple of hours. Keep warm, hand feed and keep sanitized, it can spread. Ron


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Ron,

I've had close contact with a few PPMV cases, and have had no ill effects. I believe the risk to human health lies in careless use of PMV vaccine. I'm not aware of pigeon PMV being transmittable and it is not listed as a zoonotic disease by the UK Government body (DEFRA) which monitors and advises on such issues. 

See http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/pigeons/index.htm



> Warning - human health
> 
> Accidental injection of the vaccine into a human can cause serious localised reactions. If accidental injection occurs go at once to the casualty department of the nearest hospital as emergency treatment may be necessary. Take the package or leaflet to show the doctor.


As you say, it is similar to ND:



> Paramyxovirus (PMV) of pigeons is a virus belonging to the Newcastle Disease (ND) group of bird-specific paramyxoviruses, known as Avian paramyxovirus type 1 (APMV-1). It causes very similar symptoms in pigeons to those caused by ND in domestic poultry.


John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As far as I know the only effect that PMV has on humans is conjunctivitis, but it has never affected me that way.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

if he has PMV though, and i give him FLAGYL because he might have trich, would it hurt the PMV???


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Antibiotics can aggravate the effects of PMV, but if he has canker then he must be medicated.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

so i dont know what to do. if the flagyl aggravates PMV, will he still pull through it?? i mean, how much does it aggravate it??
i guess because he has bright green poo, this lady thinks he is in starvation mode, and that is why he cant aim right for the seeds?? has anyone ever seen this??
so, what should i do then, i am sooo torn!! if he has trich and i dont treat i'm screwed, but if he has PMV and i treat for trich i'm screwed. so i need some help in which way to go on all of this??


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The Flagyl may (or may not) aggravate the PMV, or at least hinder recovery.

However, unless you can actually see the yellow cheesy-like substance which is present within the beak and/or throat area, or have a pretty good reason to believe trich is present elsewhere - like in 'crop canker' - a reason such as a vet's diagnosis, then I personally would see no value in giving an anti-Trich medication. 

But, as is usually the case on the forum, you are there with the bird and we aren't!

John


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, it's not a vet saying all of this. it's a bird rehabber that runs a bird rehab facility (her house!). 
although, she's the first to admit that she hasnt seen many city birds at all (she lives in nowhere-ville massachusetts), so because she is so far away, she usually ends up getting birds from the suburbs and woodsy areas. she also sees all types of birds. 
So, because of this she said it could be PMV, but she has never seen PMV in massachusetts during the 20 some yaers she has been doing this. she thinks it's Trich. why does antibiotics mess with the PMV?? cant he have the flagyl and still shed the virus?
i'm so sooo confused here. has anyone seen a bird in starvation mode with these symptons? pecking and missing seed, and tossing it also.
when he goes to peck for seed, sometimes he doesnt make it all the way to the ground, or he pecks for seed and kinda pecks to the left or right and doesnt go all the way down, like he's making the motions to peck at seed but doesnt make it all the way down. oh, and he shakes his head quite a bit, like when he gets a seed, he shakes his head to shake it out, and other times there isnt any seed but he shakes it anyways.
havent seen him drink water either, and when i stick his beak in water he doesnt drink....
oh, he is a juvenile from what the bird lady told me....


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,

He is more likely to be in "starvation mode" due to his inability to pick up seed rather than be unable to pick up seed because he is in "starvation mode".

I have never treated my PMV pigeons with antibiotics so I don't know what the effect would be, I have to rely on the outcome of research which has shown that antibiotics can aggravate the course of the disease and aggravate the lesions. 

Have you looked inside his mouth? You can also feel canker nodules in the throat (if they are there!) by running your fingers down the throat.

Flagyl won't stop him shedding the virus. If you are really worried then treat him for canker, the treatment won't kill him.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cynthia, i am just curious and would like to read the research on antibiotics aggravating PMV, can you tell me where to find it???


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,

It is in "Understanding Pigeon PMV" by Vindevogel and Duchatel, which is available from Jedds: http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=21&SubCategoryID=43&ProductID=2008

The booklet is based on serious scientific research by the authors but written in plain English with simple diagrams.

This is the quote about antibiotics 

"


> We should be on our guard against pigeon-fanciers who empirically stuff their pigeons with drugs. *Far from curing them, they intensify the lesions of the gastro-intestinal tract. the liver and the kidneys and aggravate the course of the disease."*


Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i looked up your posts and think i found it, on one thread you mention poops being "classic PMV poops," what does a classic PMV poop look like??


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The classic PMV poop is like a solid worm of poop in a puddle.

There is a photo on the Chevita site but I can't get a direct link to it . To see the photo look under the symptoms for "droppings formed but in puddles".

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i'm really scared now. he is starting the head turning upside down thingy, it doesnt go all the way upside down, just almost there, and he is turning in circles at times, and when i get close to him, instead of flying away or running away like other pigeons, he try's to flap his wings and loses balance and starts flapping wings and rolling all over at the same time. like a freakin' bouncy ball, he just rolls all over.
i have given him flagyl for 2 days total, i dont know whether to stop it or what?? god, i'm such an idiot for listening to this lady up here....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, don't panic because because that's a pretty standard presentation of the disease and it just takes time. Many if not most of them go through that even when they haven't been given antibiotics.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

but he seems worse, should i still give antibiotics??


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

Moxie,

It's going to get worse before it gets better.

Antibiotics won't do a thing for the PMV. Based on Cynthia's research, if you don't suspect canker anymore, he doesn't need the Flagyl. The problem is that if an antibiotic is started, it has to be given for the recommended period else resistant bacteria or canker organisms will be created. I think you have to go through a 5-6 day course of it once you started. 

You have a tiger by the tail because this illness is going to last for about 6 weeks and there is a good chance the seizures will recur so the bird is not releasable. Do you have anyone who can house the bird permanently? 

Make sure he is hydrated because with this illness, he could lose as much water in urine as he takes in.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

it's not seizures, or at least i dont think they are?? he only does it when i get close.
also, he only stands on one leg a lot of the time, like the other hurts him, but i cant find anything wrong, what else should i look for on leg??
can he have seizures ONLY when i come by, it is more like he's trying to get away, and loses balance and by flapping wings he rolls all over.
is that a seizure?
oh, he's not drinking water, i've been tubing in 10 cc of ACV water, is that what i should be giving? the amount and all??


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

HI moxie,
By chance do you have access to a friendly MD? There are certain broad spectrum antiviral medications for humans that work by interfering with viral RNA, but they need a doctor's prescription to buy. It may be worthwhile giving one of them a try for PMV. I should warn you they are expensive, but one 30 mg tablet would give up to 10 doses, more or less at 10mg/kg pigeon weight.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

what are the medications?? and is there a medical condition i can fake in order to get them prescribed?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Grimaldy said:


> HI moxie,
> By chance do you have access to a friendly MD? There are certain broad spectrum antiviral medications for humans that work by interfering with viral RNA, but they need a doctor's prescription to buy. It may be worthwhile giving one of them a try for PMV. I should warn you they are expensive, but one 30 mg tablet would give up to 10 doses, more or less at 10mg/kg pigeon weight.



I don't think it is a good idea to start experimenting with antivirals on the bird. There are several and each works on pretty specific diseases and don't seem to work on others.
Also, pretty much all of them can have some nasty side effects.

Reti


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Don't do that! No need to get yourself in serious trouble when you can do it legally. If you are friends with your local druggist, tell him what the problem is, how much the bird means to you and ask him/her to sell you one tablet of Tamiful or Cyclovir. Tamiful works for avian flu currently, cyclovir is an AIDS med. Personally I have found Walmart druggists are some of the best when it comes to things like this. Failing that, call your family doctor and ask him to write a script for one tablet. Many doctors are really kind good hearted people who are quite willing to help with human interest problems. If they are not sure, tell them to call the vet you use to vouch for you. Once you have the tablet, come back up and I will give you some ways to reduce the dose to pigeon standards.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To Reti;
All medications have side effects, nasty ones included. Besides what is the alternative?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Raina,
Personally, I wouldn't give the bird a human antiviral. Tamiflu has not been studied in birds. Even for humans, Tamiflu has minimal efficacy, and that is only for the regular old flu. 
Our PMV pigeon Oscar is 98% recovered after 2 weeks. He was given a homeopathic medicine Arnica 1 a day, calcium and vit D3 (dose should be 1/8 tsp of human liquid supplement twice a day for few days), and vitamin B complex (avian vitamin liquid) 3 drops a day. We soaked the puppy chow with the vitamin to make it easier to administer. 
The PMV symptoms become more pronounced when the bird is stressed. Eg Oscar always twisted his head when we picked him up or put him back in his cage.
10cc of water? That sounds like a lot to me. You mean 1 cc?
Sabina


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

What you could do if you have any on hand, is to give the bird a small amount of Valium. It does tend to quiet the seizures.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

From what Moxie has written, the pigeon has not had any seizures so far, she seems to have just described impaired balance sort of symptoms.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

Sabina,
Those are the seizures. At least, that's what I call these behaviors.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

hmm I was going by what Cynthia said here. 

"Feefo used to fall over and then have a lot of trouble getting herself back up again, but I don't think that clasified as a convulsion.

Cynthia "

"And I hope you never do Cynthia.

When Pij's rescuer called me, she said she found a fancy pigeon that 'tumbles' on the ground. Then she said he does 'other tricks' like turns his head upside down & watches the doves above him that shared the same cage. 

The 'tumbling' turned out to be severe seizures. 

Cindy"

But based on what Cindy said, MAYBE the wing flapping and rolling are seizure-related? To me, it seems more likely that the rolling is from the pigeon trying to get back up. But I am no PMV expert!

Sabina


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As I said earlier I have never had pigeons that had seizures and what Raina's pigeon is going through sounds exactly like what happens to mine, they fall over and have trouble getting up again. Those are not seizures. They pull themselves together very quickly and it happens when they are under stress.

I wouldn't recommend Valium for that. What might help is a drop of Bach Rescue Remedy in the water. That conmforts and reassures. If you watch him when he can't see you, you will most likely find that he is able to remain upright at least most of the time. 

I know that it is difficult to have a pigeon with such dramatic symptoms and not have a "medicine" to give. But what they need is a chance to recover in a stress free environment and calcium and vitamin supplements. Homeopathic remedies will be much more effective in this case than conventional remedies.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> oh, he's not drinking water, i've been tubing in 10 cc of ACV water, is that what i should be giving? the amount and all??


A healthy pigeon needs about 25 ml of water a day. How much you give him will depend on how much he is losing through his poops.

I usually give a 300 gm bird 7 ml at a time. This is because the bird's alimentary system is capable of taking 25 ml per kilo of bodyweight.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm pretty sure we're getting caught up in semantics. We all know what the symptoms are. I still use Valium to quiet the bird down and it does help.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Out of curiosity PigeonPerson, how do you adjust the dose?


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

I would be _reeeeal_ careful before giving neurological drugs to birds. Especially with PMV, it can take weeks to show any kind of improvement, and long tem medication with these drugs is not always a good idea.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I'm pretty sure we're getting caught up in semantics.


Not at all. Falling over and being unable to get up (as in drunk) and having a seizure are completely experiences. 

What differentiates what the pigeon goes through from a seizure is what he does with his eyes. A pigeon that has lost its balance will be consciously trying to right itself and will achieve that very quickly.



> I still use Valium to quiet the bird down and it does help.


Personally I don't believe in drugging a bird when reducing stress will have the same effect. Besides which as Valium is addictive to humans it could have the same effect on birds if it is given as long term relief. 

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

Grimaldy,
I have 10mg Valium. I cut the pill into quarters creating 2.5 mg. I cut that quarter in half giving 1.25 mg. I halve that 1.25mg to give me .625mg and use that. There's nothing wrong with giving a bird Valium. If I had Pheonbarbitol, I would prefer to use that because that's what vets give to sedate a bird that is having seizures and in this case, I do mean real seizures.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

Cynthia,
I had a budgie that was having real seizures. My vet put him on Phenobarbitol and for 6 months, he was seizure free. Addiction was never mentioned. I never thought of it and the vet never mentioned it. Of course, he lost the zest he used to exhibit but it kept him going. In the 6th month, he had one major seizure and died from it.


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

cyro51 said:


> Not at all. Falling over and being unable to get up (as in drunk) and having a seizure are completely experiences.
> 
> What differentiates what the pigeon goes through from a seizure is what he does with his eyes. A pigeon that has lost its balance will be consciously trying to right itself and will achieve that very quickly.


Gertrude used to do that too. 
Two steps forward....Fall over.....Try to get up....Fall over again......look sheepish.....eventually right himself.......look like he intended it all along.





> Personally I don't believe in drugging a bird when reducing stress will have the same effect. Besides which as Valium is addictive to humans it could have the same effect on birds if it is given as long term relief.
> 
> Cynthia


Not having easy access to the drug, reducing the stressors was the only option available to me.
Worked fine, and there was no risk envolved.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

Cynthia,
I have deliberately edited this blurb that I found on the web for symptoms of a stroke.

** sudden dizziness or problems with balance or coordination*
* *sudden problems with movement or walking*

There is a difference between a stroke and a stroke in evolution. A stroke in evolution can be caused by brain cell death due to lesions on the brain and not necessarily a burst blood vessel and a stroke can eventually develop from a stroke in evolution. Pigeons with PMV most closely resemble a person who is having a stroke in evolution. To prevent or reduce these 'seizures.' the prescribed medication is Dilantin. If a person becomes allergic to the Dilantin as they often do, then Phonobarbitol is prescribed in an attempt to prevent a seizure. 

I can't really prove this but to me, the PMV symptoms are basically similar or the same as a stroke in evolution. I would define it as a seizure in evolution from a brain lesion. I'm probably not intelligent enough or knowledgeable enough to link this together better but I'm trying my best here.

Birds that have gone through PMV can die of heart attacks and that stems from the lesions in the brain that have reached to the autonomic system and caused a seizure that stopped the heart. Your wonderful and beloved pigeon, Feefo may not have drowned but may have had a seizure that caused a heart attack at the moment she was standing at or in the water. We'll never really know that. Now, you may not have heard this about heart attacks before but they do happen. I have spoken to people who lost post PMV birds from heart attacks. To be honest, that was what they thought the sudden death was caused by. None of us have seen it all and we need a lot more input from all sources possible to really develop an insight into post PMV birds. When it comes to the brain, anything is possible.

I honestly believe that if a person is going to keep a PMV bird as a pet as they should, the use of an anti seizure medication would help and to hell with addiction. The bird isn't going to be released. I honestly don't see that the use of Valium is wrong. Anyway, it's food for thought.


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## dogsoldier (Dec 17, 2006)

Valium is good if a birds been poisoned. Can stop the spasms. Keep it from dieing of shock. But its gotta be real desperate. This birds not poisoned, why go hitting it with valium. Drug it up and how you going to know if it gets better? Too much reaching for the drugs nowadays.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

how much ACV water should i be tubing in to him a day??
also, i have some calcium powder, it is called "coral calabsorb," and has cacium, magnesium, vitamins c and d and so called trace minerals. is this ok to give to him?? it also has stevia and citric acid as an active ingredient. can someone tell me if this is ok for the calcium to give him and i will post the MG and dosage listed...
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!
oh, what the bird rehabber told me was birds hate to be sedated, only humans like that!! "i wanna be sedated!!" seems like the soundtrack to american culture!!
anyways, anyone heard of medicam?? supposed to be a great painkiller on birds, and keeps them alert, and i think if anyone needs a valium or phenobarbital, it's me!!!!!!!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Moxie ~

You'd be best getting some liquid calcium rather than what seems to be a health drink. There is calcium 'syrup' which is designed for birds, so maybe if you have a pet store you could enquire from?

I think the painkiller you mentioned is what we use here in the UK, called Metacam, probably. It is prescribed for pets, and we have occasionally given it to pigeons. Doubt your bird needs that, though.

Your comment on Valium reminded me, this is a tongue-in-cheek bit originally from 'Nooti' (who used to be on here), from her list of useful pigeon medications:



> VALIUM (Diazepam)
> 
> Valium is a member of the benzodiazepine family. Benzodiazepines are
> sedatives that cause dose-related depression of the central nervous
> ...


John


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

Moxie,
It's Metacam. That's a non-steroidal anti inflammatory pain med. I use it for birds in obvious pain such as in broken legs, etc. It has nothing to do with 'seizure' activity.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Grimaldy said:


> To Reti;
> All medications have side effects, nasty ones included. Besides what is the alternative?



That is why we give meds only if we know they will work and for the specific diseases. When the benefits outweight the risks. Why give a medicine which has great chances to produce side effects and nothing more.
Tamifly works for flu only which is a different virus than paramyxovirus. Same goes for acyclovir (I think you were mentioning) it works only on poxvirus.

Reti


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

John,
I realize Helen meant it in a humorous vane but she did make her points about the drug.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> John,
> I realize Helen meant it in a humorous vane but she did make her points about the drug.


Yes, and obviously she's right about it's uses in general. Checking back, though, most of what's previously been posted about Valium ties in with what another poster said, about it being useful for helping with seizures resulting from poisoning. If it works as a very short term measure so the bird can be quitened enough for the other necessary treatments, then that is good. PMV is quite different, though, and giving a pigeon a 'mood altering substance' isn't actually going to cure it, I feel.

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> *it's not seizures, or at least i dont think they are?? he only does it when i get close.*
> also, he only stands on one leg a lot of the time, like the other hurts him, but i cant find anything wrong, what else should i look for on leg??
> can he have seizures ONLY when i come by, *it is more like he's trying to get away, and loses balance and by flapping wings he rolls all over.
> is that a seizure?*


In my opinion Moxie, those are not seizures.
When a bird is having a seizure, they go into an involuntary & uncontrollable convulsion, whether anyone is around or not. 



cyro51 said:


> As I said earlier I have never had pigeons that had seizures and *what Raina's pigeon is going through sounds exactly like what happens to mine, they fall over and have trouble getting up again. Those are not seizures. * *They pull themselves together very quickly and it happens when they are under stress.*
> 
> *I wouldn't recommend Valium for that.* What might help is a drop of Bach Rescue Remedy in the water. That conmforts and reassures. If you watch him when he can't see you, you will most likely find that he is able to remain upright at least most of the time.
> 
> ...


I agree Cynthia.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Valium is good if a birds been poisoned.


True, that is one of the few circumstances that it would benefit a bird.



> Birds that have gone through PMV can die of heart attacks and that stems from the lesions in the brain that have reached to the autonomic system and caused a seizure that stopped the heart.


Any bird can die of a heart attack. I have never heard that birds with PMV are more susceptible to heart attacks than other birds or that it is the lesions in the brain that cause a heart attack. Have you got a reference for that? None of my PMV rescues has died other than Feefo.



> Your wonderful and beloved pigeon, Feefo may not have drowned but may have had a seizure that caused a heart attack at the moment she was standing at or in the water.


Feefo was afraid of water, she would not have gone in voluntarily and had a heart attack. I had introduced some of Helen's pigeons to the aviary and one of them was chasing her, she would have fallen over, as she often did, and aspirated, And the drowning happened 3 years after the PMV.

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Thank-you PigeonPerson;
At 0.625 mg the dose is awfully small for a 350g pigeon. The symptoms of PMV are the same as a blow to the head, a bird running into a building or window;and the authorities agree that the virus attacks the bird's central nervous system. Anything that reduces the load on the bird's nervous system such as a depressant like phenobarbital is much to be desired. Unfortunately those drugs have a high rate of abuse by humans and are therefore difficult to obtain for legitimate purposes. But it is a good idea for neurological incidents other than concussion.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Grimaldy,

I think Pigeonperson has it just about right, heavy sedation at 1.5mg, moderate sedation at 1mg and mild sedation at .50mg, so his .625mg should just about right. I had to sedate a bird for a foot procedure and he weighted 350-375 grams, I would have to go and look it up, but around 1.5mg brought on very heavy sedation.

Ron


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Reti:
Tamilflu is a drug known as neuramidase inhibitor, it prevents the release of budding viruses. Influenza is a virus. A virus is essentially a piece of DNA looking for a cell to take over so that it can reproduce. It invades a healthy cell, takes over the cell machinery and reproduces itself. There are a number of drugs that interfere with the viral mechanism to disable it from doing all that. Tamilflu is one of those drugs, and currently the manufacturer touts it as good for avian flu H5N1. Nobody is saying that Tamiflu is going to cure PMV, but it is a hell of a lot better to try than doing nothing. If it works, we all learn something; if it does not we all learn something, and try some other antiviral drug.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2007)

In any event, I can't put together any more of an argument for this as I don't know enough. To me, it holds some grains of truth. Is it enough to warrant further exploration? I don't know. At least I managed to challenge some of the ideas held about how to abate the symptoms of a brain lesion in a bird. It's food for thought, I hope.

Grimaldy, this is what I would call a safe dose. One 10 mg pill can knock a big man off his feet for a while so it can be quite potent. I wouldn't chance a bigger dose for a bird. I used to give my budgie one drop of Pheno Barbitol a day and it knocked him for a loop for all of 24 hours. I don't remember the concentration. You have to go by the potency of a drug and not only the weight of the bird.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

moxxie if you are going to spend money on anything spend it on the calcium, we can certainly vouch for its value and it wont cost you more than $10.00, money is an issue for you as it is for me, i dont really see this as the time for experimenting when there are safe proven alternatives.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Grimaldy;187360If it works said:


> I simply don't agree in experimenting with those drugs or any drugs on anyone. For now, Tamiflu is proven to work only on the flu viruse family, pmv is a completely different virus, chances are it won't work.
> What you're suggesting is doing some experiment w/ antivirals on this poor bird and see if it works. If the bird dies, we won't even know if it was from the drug or pmv, if he improves, it could be because of the natural course of the disease, but we won't be able to determine if the drug had anything to do with it.We do know that supportive care is key in pmv, so why not stick with that.
> 
> As for valium, it is a great muscle relaxer, I even used it myself when I had torticollis, combined with an antiinflammatory, it cures it instantly.
> ...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Grimaldy,

Before you bother getting too deep explaining what a virus is to Reti, you might try reading the occupation on the member profile:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/member.php?u=1796

As to the antivirals and their efficacy, I seem to remember reading about various ones and how they're often geared to specific viridae. In AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, page 458, it tells about Acyclovir, for instance, that it helps with Pacheco's disease in flock outbreak management. It's preferentially absorbed by cells infected with herpesvirus and mostly inhibits herpesvirus DNA polymerase. It is only effective in the strains of herpesvirus that code for their own DNA polymerase, otherwise it has varying effects. While it's been suggested for poxvirus, there's no evidence to show it has any appreciable effect. There are negatives mentioned. I couldn't find any mention about antivirals being used for avian paramyxoviridae.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think Phenobarbital is used for long term management of the epileptic condition, whereas Diazepam (Valium) is used for the short term management of acute, and usually severe, epileptic episodes.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> I think Phenobarbital is used for long term management of the epileptic condition, whereas Diazepam (Valium) is used for the short term management of acute, and usually severe, epileptic episodes.
> 
> Pidgey


That's true. Even though recently they stared avoiding diazepam (valium) altogether.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, i am not going to use this bird to try out anything. i really dont believe in "testing" medications out on animals for other animals, or animals for people. if it were up to me, there would be no such thing as lab rats. i have a friend that works in a lab at M.I.T. and they do some horrible and heinous thingto their rats and mice, and trust me, cats, dogs, birds, all in the name of bettering medicine. i think it is horrible to have to lose one life to save other lives, and it isnt just one life, it is hundreds upon thousands. it really makes me sick.
anyways, can i not use this powdered calcium until i get the liquid stuff?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't see why not. You can also use tums temporary.

Reti


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I guess there is some truth to the definition of an expert as a person who knows all the reasons why nothing can be done.
Physicians regularly prescribe medications which are taken for purposes other than the manufacturer's stated indications; the practice is known as "off label" prescribing. In simple words they often find that a drug is useful for purposes other than intended. They do not come to that information by conducting studies or trials, they come to that information by what they observe in their patients.
I also take it as common sense that no drug company is likely to conduct antiviral test studies if only a few people are likely to buy the drug. I really don't see any evidence to suggest the avian veterinary market as a money maker for the drug companies. That leaves it to those who are willing to experiment and try. 
When you consider the fact that so many people throw all the antibiotic, homeopathic and "natural" remedies they have at hand at any bird for which they have not the slightest idea of a diagnosis, I confess myself to be amazed.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Pidgy;
Actually acyclovir is a nucleoside analogue that works by inhibiting the reverse transcriptase of a virus. It was one of the first of the "Nuke" inhibitors and was initially used for herpes. Because of its effectiveness it also works well with HIV, Barr-Epstein, Varicella, Pacheco's and others. I don't know how you form the opinion that antivirals of this type are specific to the particular genome of the virus, but I would certainly be interested in reading it if you would be so kind as to direct me.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

moxie,
you asked again about how much water to give--i think you missed cynthia's reply saying 25 ml a day, 7 ml at a time for a 300g bird. 
sabina


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## dogsoldier (Dec 17, 2006)

Way I heard it an expert just figures he knows everything about everything. Good for you folks who say dont mess with all this stuff. Dont you mind these real learned Pet Doctors that want to try a whole heap of drugs on other Folks birds.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Grimaldy said:


> Hi Pidgy;
> Actually acyclovir is a nucleoside analogue that works by inhibiting the reverse transcriptase of a virus. It was one of the first of the "Nuke" inhibitors and was initially used for herpes. Because of its effectiveness it also works well with HIV, Barr-Epstein, Varicella, Pacheco's and others. I don't know how you form the opinion that antivirals of this type are specific to the particular genome of the virus, but I would certainly be interested in reading it if you would be so kind as to direct me.


Epstein-Barr, Varicella and Pacheco's are from the herpesvirus family. As for giving it in HIV patients it is only to prevent herpes encephalitis and herpes zoster, it does nothing to the HIV itself.
And yes, many drugs have "off label" indications, but those are well documented.
Read any medical book and you'll see the indications of each antiviral and a good pharmacology book will tell you the same.


Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

OH!!! i didnt see that post!! sorry!! But, how many CC"S of water does that translate to?? what does one ML equal in cc's? also, how many MG of calcium should i be giving??


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Moxie,

You can substitute cc for mL, as 1cc = 1mL. The 25mL a day might be a high if you a supplementing this bird with hand feeding, as hand feeding formulas are high in water content, are you feeding this bird?

As for Calcium, 6-7mg per 100gm of body weight is what the Calcivet liquid calcium supplement I have works out to.

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Gertrude used to do that too.
> Two steps forward....Fall over.....Try to get up....Fall over again......look sheepish.....eventually right himself.......look like he intended it all along.


Feefo was the same. I used to worry that she might be suffering but when she stood up again she would give her tail a satisfied little shake and go to the seed dish.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> *it's not seizures, or at least i dont think they are?? he only does it when i get close.*
> *it is more like he's trying to get away, and loses balance and by flapping wings he rolls all over.*





xxmoxiexx said:


> yes, *i am not going to use this bird to try out anything.* i really dont believe in "testing" medications out on animals for other animals, or animals for people. if it were up to me, there would be no such thing as lab rats. i have a friend that works in a lab at M.I.T. and they do some horrible and heinous thingto their rats and mice, and trust me, cats, dogs, birds, all in the name of bettering medicine. i think it is horrible to have to lose one life to save other lives, and it isnt just one life, it is hundreds upon thousands. it really makes me sick.
> anyways, can i not use this powdered calcium until i get the liquid stuff?


I agree with you 100% Moxie.

There would be no valid reason to give your bird tranquilizers or anticonvulsants as you have given a very good description of your bird's behavior, which clearly doesn't appear to be seizure activity. 

Cindy


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

*Ok, This is not going to win me any popularity points....*

But I have to say it,

I have been thinking about this topic over the last couple of days, trying to figure out the nicest way of putting my feelings on the matter down.

Well here goes......

Guys, and Gals. Essentially what is happening here is;
Someone is describing symptoms they don't understand to people who can't see them, and (in the main) only have their own experience to go on anyway. Am I the only person who thinks that it might not be the best context to discuss the administering of strong drugs?
Vallium is not exactly candy, and there are reasons why that is.

Ok, that's my two cents. - Usual sillyness will now resume.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

You are absolutely right Alvin,
It appears that most of the people seeking medical advice for one reason or another are not really interested in medications that have the potential for harm; otherwise they would simply go to the vet. In some cases it appears that they really do not trust vets or a veterinarian is just not accessible. Most it is clear to me are simply seeking emotional support and regard the advice as demonstrative of support rather than as a solution to the problem. The forum is however an excellent place for people to pick up practical tips about dealing with bird problems. It is also an excellent epidemiological surveillance system if the local heath authorities ever wake up to it.
Valium, phenolbarbital, codeine, etc. are all powerful medications, and for that reason can alleviate considerable suffering in birds as well as humans. If it is clear a bird is not going to survive its injuries or illnesses, humanity demands that something be done to make its last hours as tolerable as can be done. In neurological illnesses like PMV, birds rarely survive.
Diagnosis by the untrained from facts given by the unobservant is hit or miss at best, but I am certain that with time and experience, many of the members who seem to be quite good at it, will refine their questions so that a clearer picture can be quickly had and thereby a worthwhile answer.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Grimaldy said:


> It is also an excellent epidemiological surveillance system if the local heath authorities ever wake up to it.


Hi Grimaldy

Not sure what you mean here - could you explain more?

Thanks.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> You are absolutely right Alvin, In neurological illnesses like PMV, birds rarely survive.


Grimaldi, do you have statistics on this to back up your statement?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Alvin ~

I believe your post puts forward a sensible view, expressed simply and respectfully.

I quite understand your comment about the context and, in fact, I would suggest that the same applies to the wider context of what this section of pigeon-life is for.

I do think that what people are looking for if they have a sick or injured pigeon is practical, simple advice - as far as it can be provided with the information available, of course. 

To me, the most straightforward approach, if the problem is one which any of us have had some experience of, is just to suggest what is known to work well in most cases.

Maybe the scientific debating would be better on the General Discussions section, where anyone is free to put forward any pigeon-related topic for those who may have a particular interest in a given subject.

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Grimaldy said:


> In neurological illnesses like PMV, birds rarely survive.


This may (probably will) be the case in 'wild' pigeons, primarily due to the knock-on effects like losing the ability to fly, becoming an easier target for predators and simply dying of starvation or thirst, but in 'captive' pigeons (or pigeons who are rescued in time), there is an excellent chance of survival, given supportive care.

John


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I suppose it depends on what assumptions you're adding to that statement. For instance, if you were to assume that 99+% of the cases of PMV in pigeons that actually occur in the wilds (mostly in town, though) end with the bird dying due more to privation and predation but dying nonetheless, the statement stands. If, however, you assume that Grimaldy was only referring to the bulk of PMV rescues not surviving, then that might be different although I imagine that the percentage of rescued PMV pigeons that actually show up on Pigeon-Talk might be a very small minority indeed and, therefore, might have a high mortality because most vets and wildcare agencies would probably put them down. I sort of doubt that Grimaldy was implying that the survival rate of PMV birds in the hands of knowledgable and dedicated rehabbers is that bad.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2007)

http://tinyurl.com/l4cxe

"Diazepam For Veterinary Use
by Barbara Forney, VMD

Overview
Therapeutic Class
Benzodiazepine tranquilizer
Species
Dogs, Cats, Horses, Cattle, Sheep, Goats, Swine, Rabbits, *Birds*, Reptiles, Pocket Pets
Indications
Sedation, seizures, muscle relaxation, anxiety, and appetite stimulation.
FDA Status
No veterinary approval: Class IV controlled substance.


Basic Information

Diazepam is a benzodiazepine tranquilizer. Drugs in this class act directly on the brain and are central nervous system (CNS) depressants. Although the precise mechanism of action is not fully known, specific benzodiazepine receptors have been found in the brain and other tissues including the heart, kidney, liver and lungs. Diazepam is used clinically for sedation, to diminish anxiety or modify behavior, as a muscle relaxant, an anticonvulsant, and in some species as an appetite stimulant. It may be administered intra-venously, intra-muscularly, orally and rectally via suppository or enema. Diazepam is metabolized by the liver to nordiazepam and other active metabolites. They are excreted in the urine."

I would have hoped that people who are not as experienced in the use of certain drugs to obtain a desired effect would have had more of an open mind when confronted with 'new' ideas or articles like the above which was written by a vet.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2007)

From Avian Medicine: Principles and Application

"Diazapam is an excellent sedative and provides some muscle relaxation."


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2007)

Alvin et al,
In view of the above two cites, would you concede that the use of Valium could ease the tortillosis seen in PMV birds is possible?


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2007)

Would you all please re read post #70 by Ron, somebody whose opinions are greatly respected here?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm not sure whether Reti was referring to the use of Diazepam in humans or animals. And the discussion prior to this kinda' had two separate trains going, one being the pros and cons of antivirals given in experimentation and the other being about sedatives being used for PMV patients. I tend to hang with what's suggested in treatment options as it appears in the avian vet books that I've got and don't much wander away from that. I made the assumption that antivirals aren't used for PMV birds because there's nothing mentioned about them having any efficacy that way and I tend to think that the researchers involved have given them a try given the depth of the other stuff mentioned in the articles on PMV, its pathogenesis and control methods. That's probably a bit presumptious on my part but I could ask my vet next time I see him if I think about it.

By the same token, I haven't found anything in my library discussing any pros or cons of sedation, either, for PMV birds. This is anecdotal, but about the only thing that I have heard that might have done any good AND that varies from what's in the books (that I have, anyhow) was the administration of a corticosteroid that I believe Cindy (AZWhitefeather) gave to a PMV bird and I'm not sure whether or not she'd even advocate that broadly. She would have to post her thoughts on that. I never gave it much thought as I'd never seen a PMV bird up to this point. I think I've got two right now (one that's already recovered) but the symptoms are nowhere near as severe as the classic ones that others describe.

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> Alvin et al,
> In view of the above two cites, would you concede that the use of Valium could ease the tortillosis seen in PMV birds is possible?


Pigeonperson ~

I don't believe anyone has said that Valium will _not_ work as a muscle relaxant in pigeons or any other species. The only point at issue has been the _circumstances_ in which it might sensibly be used. 

This thread is (or was) a request for help in dealing with a PMV pigeon. Now whenever someone asks for help - whether it be PMV or another problem - If people want to offer practical, proven advice from their own experience then that is excellent, and the recipient can check it out with whoever, or whatever way, they decide and choose to use it or not. 

If people want to enter into lengthy semi-scientific discussions about the possible merits of this, that and the other, get others to "concede" to their views, win debates or score points then (as I've said) it would be best done on the General forum under its own heading. 

John


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*ok, update*

...i have been having problems with my computer, so i apologize if i havent been around, add to that i have a huge mid-term coming up, i might be M.I.A. on occasion.
anyways, i forgot to mention, this bird i by no means a squeaker, but he is a JUVENILE from what the rehabber lady described up here. also, about FLAGYL affecting his brain, has anyone heard or know more about the blood-brain barrier?? well, supposedly, from what this rehabber lady says, is medication wont affect his brain, because of this barrier?? can anyone elaborate on this?
anyhow, she thinks i should put him down.... 
and, i do use this site because no access to a vet, so i use it for more than emotional support. i have learned sooooo much from you people, and make no mistake, i dont believe at all that i know enough about anything to diagnose, thats why i post on here and ask! but if i never found this site in a moment of pure desperation back in october, i would of never learned what "suspect behavior and symptoms" were in pigeons, i would of passed that lone pigeon by, and he would of died that night by a gang of cruel children, or worse, and i would of passed by my BB pigeon, who is still on the road to recovery, but we have since passed that desperate phase. My first pigeon brought me here not long ago, so he didnt die in vain. i believe i did many things wrong with him by not knowing what to do, but have since learned a few very basic "basics" in helping a pigeon. and i thank all of you for that.
I have to think that first pigeon died for a reason, being that i might one day save just ONE other pigeon because of him, so i try not to give up hope, as painful as this ALL is to me, and as much as i sacrifice for it, i have to try, or i would feel like my first poor baby died for nothing, and that is way too sad for me to swallow....

anyways, i have been giving PMV some soaked cat food (10-15 morsels), and he eats a little seed. he doesnt drink water. he's trying to fly out of the box i rigged up for him, with clear tape for windows. so he's getting a bit stronger. i actually went in my room yesterday with him just sitting there like a convict caught in the act of escaping. he flew so hard against the "door" i made to be able to grab him and put food in, that he did it over and over until it opened!! so i'm onto him now, but it breaks my heart to see him trying to get out, i feel it stresses him out, no?? so how can i reduce his stress? he cant just fly about because i cant catch him when he rolls all over like the energizer bunny! poor guy!!
so what dose flagyl should he be getting and for how long considering he is a juvenile?? the lady told me about 25-30 mg 1x day, for 10 days?? 
and someone else told me that same dose 2x day instead of once a day, and for 5 days instead, which is the right dose, but i forgot to tell them it was a juvenile, so i have done the 25-30 1x day for the last 3 days. the bird rehabber lady said the 2x day for 5 is right for an adult, so i used my best judgement and decided to use the juvenile dosing that she asked. i guess i shoulda asked on here again first?? should i change this??

thanks everyone, again i appreciate ALL OF YOU!!


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2007)

John,
No points trying to be scored. It started with a statement by me that Valium helps PMV birds. It ended with my citing a couple of sources that Valium is used with birds. In between those posts, there was actual alarm about the use of it. Why? Vets use it for seizure activity and it also relaxes muscles, the same muscles that twist in the neck of PMV birds. 

There is no written documentation on this as far as I know but the drug reduces the electrical conductivity in the brain and therefore reduces the convulsions we see in the body. That's the only thing I wanted to point out. I've used it. It works. It isn't radical. It helps. It isn't hypothetical. I felt it belonged in a thread about PMV birds and not in general discussions.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> *This is anecdotal, but about the only thing that I have heard that might have done any good AND that varies from what's in the books (that I have, anyhow) was the administration of a corticosteroid that I believe Cindy (AZWhitefeather) gave to a PMV bird* and I'm not sure whether or not she'd even advocate that broadly. She would have to post her thoughts on that.
> Pidgey


I have moved my reply to the following thread.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19758I

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> In neurological illnesses like PMV, birds rarely survive.


 According to Vindevogel there is 5% - 10% mortality ( with supportive care) and 30% - 70% morbity.

Perhaps that depends on what care they receive. *All * my PMV pigeons have survived and Jules, who rescues about 40 a year has also had nearly 100% survival rate. We both provide supportive care and calcium supplements.


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Regarding the survival rate statistics I think they certainly are not as bleak as some people suggest.
I have had 17 PMV pigeons in the last 2 years and the *all* survived.

Other common feral pigeon diseases (such as canker) are certainly more dangerous.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i asked this in my last post, but i guess it was missed...
what amount of flagyl, and how long, should i be giving to him??
he is a JUVENILE!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are several protocols you could use and people will sometimes fight to the death over which one is appropriate. One of the oldest was 10-30 mg/kg, PO, BID (10 to 30 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily). There were once-daily protocols like 20-50 mg/kg, PO, SID (20 to 50 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily. In the more modern formularies, the dosage can go up to the 200-250 mg/kg, PO, QD (200 to 250 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, each day).

Since you're walking a tightrope of "antibiotics are bad" during PMV, you might go with the lower dosage, it's up to you. And, yes, Metronidazole (Flagyl) DOES cross the blood brain barrier:

http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/3/3/239

Pidgey


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To Matriach:
One of the problems in using statistics is that some identifiable number or group must be the subject of the count otherwise the numbers are merely anecdotal.
King, D.J. National Library of Medicine, Avian Dis. 1996 July, US Dept of Agriculture, July 17, 2005, cites a intercerebral pathogenicity index of 1.93 in a study of New Castle Virus outbreak in turkeys in Iowa in 1977. New Castle is of the same viridae or family as paramoxyviris (among some authorities is regarded as one and the same but just a different strain) and the ICPI is the accepted measure of mortality, 2.00 being a perfect score or 100% dead. See also the Veterinary Record, Vol.114, Issue 19, p.466 for a discussion of PMV among racing pigeons with a ICIP of 1.48. There is also a recent report about an outbreak of PMV in Saudi Arabia but no number mentioned in the abstract. Unfortunately once the health authorities get involved the result is to cull the entire flock; but some of the PMV outbreaks in France and Belguim mention about 20% immediate mortality at the outbreak, in fact the signal of an outbreak.
Of course there is no way to count the numbers when dealing with feral pigeons. There is an acccepted view apparently that if the pigeon's immune system is not overwhelmed immediately, and sudden death results, there is a possibility of recovery. What exactly that possibility might be nobody knows simply because nobody collects the numbers. But like all viral infections that afflict humanity, a small number survive in an outbreak and the numbers become known when they count the bodies.
I hope this sheds some light on a subject of some apparent controvery.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Lady Tarheel (Cynthia):
I am sorry but I don't understand the question.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To John and PigeonPerson;
As those people who take in feral pigeons all learn quickly, the stress of capture is a real problem and in a pigeon struggling with hypothermia, severe injury etc. that stress is often enough to push them over the edge. I don't know about the others but it is terribly frustrating to pick up a bird that you think should make it until you get it to warmth and safety just to have it die in your hands. It is true that there are certain problems in the administration of stress relieving drugs to a bird in a debilitated state as the drug itself does come with its own set of difficulties, but it seems to me that anything that alleviates suffering is certainly desirable to the alternative.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> To John and PigeonPerson;
> As those people who take in feral pigeons all learn quickly, the stress of capture is a real problem and in a pigeon struggling with hypothermia, severe injury etc. that stress is often enough to push them over the edge. I don't know about the others but it is terribly frustrating to pick up a bird that you think should make it until you get it to warmth and safety just to have it die in your hands. It is true that there are certain problems in the administration of stress relieving drugs to a bird in a debilitated state as the drug itself does come with its own set of difficulties, but it seems to me that anything that alleviates suffering is certainly desirable to the alternative.


Grimaldy,
I can't comment about the experiences of other people but after doing this work with ferals for over 20 years, I don't normally lose birds from stress. The first thing that is done when I get them is to hydrate, hydrate, hydrate and furnish warmth. Sometimes I get them too late with termination injuries or illnesses but what I do is to catch them when they are still strong enough to fly, when they still have that built in reserve. Yes, if we find a bird that is on the ground, it may already be too late but that's why I try to get them as early into the injury or illness as possible. I have no idea how many birds I've lost from handling shock but it's got to be a pretty low figure.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> ICPI is the accepted measure of mortality, 2.00 being a perfect score or 100% dead. See also the Veterinary Record, Vol.114, Issue 19, p.466 for a discussion of PMV among racing pigeons with a ICIP of 1.48.


Grimaldy,
I don't understand this. If 2.0 is a perfect score and 100.0 is total death, then how is it possible to have a score lower than 2.0? If I'm reading this correctly, there's a built in contradiction. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. You aren't the author of this blurb.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

We feral pigeon rescuers must be pretty amazing people then, to have 100% success with our PMV rescues where others have close to 100% mortality. 
Although I do concede that when pigeons are infected experimentally there is 100% mortality. Whether they are given supportive care after being infected is open to question.

BTW Grimaldi, by "Matriarch" do you mean me? And by Lady Tarheel (Cynthia) do you mean Maggie?

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Moxie,

If you are going to use the Flagyl, I would also go with the lower dose, as Pidgey recommends, for 5 days and you should be fine with this.

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*To Anyone who is interested.*

I have been using alfalfa tablets on my hens, and I think it would make a great addition to the PMV program to help calm the bird with an added bonus.

I have noticed it really does calm them, as well as provide them with a complete profile of biotin, calcium, choline, inositol, iron, magnesium, PABA, phosphorus, potassium, protein, sodium, sulfur, tryptophan (the sleep producing amino aid), and vitamins A, B complex, C,D,E, and more. 

I only use 1/4 of human dose, and use it once a week, and it has chorophyll which is also good for detoxing the liver.

This is as close to being in the natural state so it is easily absorbed and helps with immune function as well, and no side effects.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Grimaldy,
> I don't understand this. If 2.0 is a perfect score and 100.0 is total death, then how is it possible to have a score lower than 2.0? If I'm reading this correctly, there's a built in contradiction. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. You aren't the author of this blurb.


You can read the first little bit of this one and get a better idea what the ICPI (*I*ntra*c*erebral *P*athogenicity *I*ndex) is all about: 

http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scah/out04_en.html

It really only applies to ND, which really doesn't have much use in this... discussion.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2007)

Ok, now it makes more sense but this is a site that discusses ND or possibly END although those two strains have nothing to do with PPMV.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,



> well, supposedly, from what this rehabber lady says, is medication wont affect his brain, because of this barrier?? can anyone elaborate on this?
> anyhow, she thinks i should put him down....


To be honest I wouldn't seek that particular rehabber's advice any more. The impression that I am getting is that she has a very limited knowledge of pigeon ailments and is trying to make the symptoms match the ailments that she is familiar with. Does that make sense? Perhaps she thinks that trich has affected the brain, that can happen but is very rare and there is nothing to support that conclusion.

She reminds me of the "person who knows everything there is to know about pigeons" that I was referred to with an early rescue. I asked her how I could make my rescue comfortable and she recommended putting a few drops of essential oil of lavender on its bed. I did, I lost the pigeon and much later found out that essential oils are toxic to birds.

Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To Pigeonperson and Cyro51;
The pathogenicity index is an accepted statistical measure of the probablity of survival when an infection occurs that may result in death, given that all members of the group are assumed to be equally exposed or infected. Complete mortality or 100% death, is a score of 2.0, while a lesser score implies that a certain percentage will survive.
Now if you folks experience a 100% survival rate among your patients, I say good for you. You are doing much much better than the scientists and the doctors. They recommend 100 % cull of an infected brood with no attempt to treat.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, Cynthia, she runs a huge operation AND TAKES IN SOO MANY BIRDS A YEAR!!
it seems to me like she doesnt want to hear anything new, i sent her some information that all of you directed me to, and she wrote it off, she said "i've been doing this for 15 years, so what do i know?!!"
anyways, she has seemed like she's been trying to help, so maybe she's just more experienced with song birds. and i guess if you are a rehabber and dont follow up on new knowledge all the time, your info will be useless and out-dated.
why i listened to her, and not all of you?? i dont know, i guess because she sounded like she made sense at the time, saying maybe PMV isnt up here and all, and this bird being in starvation mode could account for the symptoms, and i guess reaching for the drugs seemed easier than doing nothing, as i usually do myself when i have a cold or something....
ok, well, he's got ALL of the symptoms now, and his head turns almost all the way around, like linda blair in the exorcist. also, his eyes were orangey-brown at edges, and yellow by pupil, now the part by pupil is GRAY, what does that mean??
ok, and he took a big drink of water today, but his head started to spasm and he breathed in a bunch of water, i grabbed him and he started to "growl" and water POURED out of his nose? should i keep the water away from him?? it's in a coffee cup so he wont fall in it....
anyways, is the gray around the pupil, WHAT IS THAT???


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2007)

Moxie,
I want to ask you again; This bird is not going to be releasable so what are you going to do with him once he has gone through the worst of the symptoms? He has to go to somebody for permanent housing. Do you have anyone? You have to have a plan now.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To PigeonPerson;
So you say NewCastle disease and Paramoxyvirus are different? Take a look at:

intratserebraalse patogeensuse indeks
Kontekst:, 'Newcastle disease' means an infection of poultry caused by any avian strain of the paramoxyvirus 1 with an intracerebral pathogenicity index ...
mt.legaltext.ee/esterm/concept.asp?conceptID=34970&term=intratserebraalse%20patogeensuse%20indeks - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

and while you are at it:
ttp://www.mcb.uct.ac.za/tutorial/classif.htm#host
I would be interested in why you think so.
Regards,


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know what to tell you, kid. If the eyes are going gray, it may be that he's getting a real problem. There is a presentation of Paratyphoid (Salmonellosis) that affects the birds neurologically and you can get very similar symptoms to PMV. That can also include some things that happen to the eyes, like iridocyclitis, where they begin to shift color. That typically only happens in very high dose infections. If it were me, I'd take the gamble and start the bird on Baytril at 40 milligrams per kilogram, orally, per day (written 40 mg/kg, PO, QD) for three days and then throttle down if he makes it. Assuming that he's a 300 gram bird, that initial dose would be 120 microliters or about halfway in between the 10 and the 15 on that tiniest syringe (the 3/10ths CC) or about 40% of the full stroke.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2007)

Pidgey,
Do you think we're dealing with Paratyphoid of the brain and not PMV? Here is where tests can be so vital.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2007)

Grimaldy,
I'm not going to get into a discussion about different strains of the same family of PMV-1. This site is loaded with sick and injured pigeons and I have my share too right now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, good grief! Grimaldy, if you want a particularly good essay on the differences between the varieties of ND (PMV-1) and PMV-1/Pigeon/Munich/14/83 or even PMV-7/dove/Tennessee/4/75, then go here and read it in its entirety:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

Then, read it again. I say that because it usually takes more than one reading for it to sink in that the rather large table delineating the 23 strains of ND (known at that time) from the other strains of PMV, with the confusing PMV-1 shown for both ND and pigeon PMV, doesn't have anything to do with the other table up at the beginning showing a more summary listing of the different PMV's.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Pidgey,
> Do you think we're dealing with Paratyphoid of the brain and not PMV? Here is where tests can be so vital.


Didn't want to, you know. But if the color of the irises is starting to change (iridocyclitis) then that's pointing to the worst-case scenario. If the bird's losing control to the point of inhaling water in the act of trying to drink, I'd not expect it to have much time. It sounds more like a "last ditch effort" is warranted and godspeed.

Pidgey


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*pmv theorists move it!*

can you pmv theorists move your discussion to another thread, like start your own charming discussion and post it in the General Discussions area so that those that are actually trying to help the original poster can do that without having to go through your heavy meditations.  

i mean, pretty please?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*Thanks Aias!!!*

a few times i had to check the thread, cause i swore i was checking the wrong thread!!! but i didnt want to seem un-grateful, so i shut my trap for once in my entire life!!! 
anyways, dont the eyes change color as they get older??


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pidgey,

This has to be 99.9% certain PMV. Although there can be some initial confusion between that and paratyphoid, the similarities are pretty much limited to the twisting of the neck and balance problem. This bird has apparently shown a range of classic PMV signs - the twisting of the neck, the worsening of symptoms when approached (because it can't co-ordinate enough to go for an 'escape' flight), seed tossing, going for food items and missing, falling over (does it also turn circles?)... and PMV can cause some abnormalities in the appearance of the eyes (one of ours is very odd). I don't know, since I don't claim to have any particularly expert knowledge, but it seems likely to me that the internal effec6ts of PMV might cause the eye color to show changes (somewhat like cirrhosis or jaundice in humans?).

We've already looked at the problems of antibiotics aggravating PMV, and it would seem that giving them would only be advisable if there was a definite diagnosis of some concurrent problem which would normally be treated with them.

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> a few times i had to check the thread, cause i swore i was checking the wrong thread!!! but i didnt want to seem un-grateful, so i shut my trap for once in my entire life!!!
> anyways, dont the eyes change color as they get older??


They do indeed, Moxie, though somewhat gradually. A PMV pigeon, as I say, can have such odd changes. Also, I've noticed with our pigeons that they can look subtly different even from one photograph to another taken on different days - but that's probably just light effects.

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Grimaldy said:


> To PigeonPerson;
> So you say NewCastle disease and Paramoxyvirus are different? Take a look at:
> 
> intratserebraalse patogeensuse indeks
> ...



Grimaldy - these scientific dissertations really aren't relevant to the issue of someone with a PMV pigeon who just needs some comprehensible advice.

John


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*Thanks so much.....*

....everyone!! maybe the eyes are because it is different light?? also, when i first noticed the yellow, i told the rehabber lady up here, and she said that means he's a juvenile. any thoughts on this statement??
the yellow was only AROUND the pupil, with the reddish brown at the edge of eyes, and now the yellow looks, or is gray, but again, it is only AROUND the pupil. do juveniles have yellow just around the pupil?? kind of like some of us humans, me included, that have a more green around the pupil, and it changes to more hazel at the edge of that...
john, he does turn circles, and he didnt when i first got him. he is walking around and tried to fly outta box.
i didnt mean to scare you all off by asking to stop the discussion of PMV, but it was fine at first, but got pretty much like a debate rather than a discussion, i know everyone had the best intentions, but i'm a virgin here!! you gotta go slow or i get confused!! 
anyways, i'm pretty bummed, i thought i found a rehabber that would help me with pigeons, but she seems to be pretty closed minded concerning new ideas or information, so i'm kind of at square #1 again there....


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> ....everyone!! maybe the eyes are because it is different light?? also, when i first noticed the yellow,
> 
> **i told the rehabber lady up here, and she said that means he's a juvenile. any thoughts on this statement??*
> 
> ...


Moxie,

* Here's what the Cornell Lab of Ornithology has to say about a pigeon's eyes.
*Eye colors: Adults have orange or reddish orange eyes; juveniles that are less than six to eight months old have medium brown or grayish brown eyes.*

Here's the link to the entire website.
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/programs/urbanbirds/CoolFacts/ubs_PIWCoolFactFeatureEN.html

** I think some discussions become far more advanced than is necessary at times.  JMO

Cindy


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2007)

You know what, Moxie? They are right. This thread has substantially moved away from the original intention which was to help your bird. Let's get back to basics. 
Everything points to PMV. The change in color could be in different light or the bird is changing into an adult. Let's assume that.

1) Stop the Flagyl.

2) Make sure the bird is hydrated. He's losing a lot of water through the urine.

3) Make sure you feed him unless he can swallow the seed. Feel the crop. If it's empty, feed him by hand. If he's having difficulty in swallowing, then buy Purina Puppy Chow, throw about 30 pieces into water and feed him piece by piece twice a day. 

4) Give him a calcium supplement. It could be uncolored Tums or anything else that's calcium as long as it doesn't also contain aluminum compounds..

This could go on for 6 weeks or so.

That's it. If he lives, he lives. If he dies, so be it but it isn't because you did or didn't do something. Make sure we don't confuse you by making it more complicated. Just do these few things and if he makes it through, we'll worry about everything else afterwards.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, pigeonperson, sorry i didnt answer your question right away, i guess i hadnt thought about what i would do with him if he lives until you asked, and that needed some thought. i have NO IDEA what i would do with him. everyone i live with deals with my so called pigeon/animal "problem" as long as they are here temporary. no pets allowed here, people have gotten tossed out for that, and i'm WAY PUSHING THE LIMIT!! i have a cat, and i have to sneak him out to the vet, so my roomies allow the cat, that's it.
so i was thinking maybe i could post him for adoption on here, or someone would be willing to take him on here. just a thought, but i've seen it happen a couple times on here in the short amount of time i've been a member.
but we can think on that later i guess. unless you're thinking i should put him down because he doesnt have a place to go afterwards?? i just cant bear that thought though. but then again, i can't get kicked out of the ONE affordable place to live in boston, i can afford anywhere else. 
watching him struggle really breaks my heart, it got bad so fast!!
pigeonperson, you said i need to finish the course of antibiotics or it will make resistant bacteria, are we shelving that idea now??
also, is my cat food ok for now??
should i keep the water away from him??
he's so sweet, he hates being in the box, but when i open the door and let him out he does his little circle thing and stays on the sheet i lay out for him. a few times i put the sheet on my bed and let him sleep there. as long as i dont get too close, he's cool. if i reach for him real slow, he doesnt freak out as bad. if i walk by him fast, or reach for him fast, he puffs up and if i keep getting closer and am going to fast, he starts his rolly-polly thing. he's getting more used to me though. much more than any of the others have. i should know not to get attached.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just take the best care of the bird that you can, Moxie. If it needs a home when it's all over, then the bird can come here. Count on it.

Terry


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2007)

Moxie,

This is going to be short and simple. After this thread, that's the best way.

1) If the bird lives, Terry will have a home for it.

2) Use Purina Puppy Chow not cat food. There are reasons for it. Cat food is not good for pigeons. 

3) After one feeding of the Chow, feel the crop. The breast should feel full. In the evening, if the crop has gone down, refill with some Chow. If it hasn't gone down much, wait until the morning. In other words, let the crop empty. Ron suggested I mention this and it's important not to over feed. As the bird gets better, the crop should empty faster. If he throws up, then cut the amount down to about 15 pieces and as he gets better, increase it.

4) Stop the Flagyl. Forget about resistance developing. We'll worry about canker or anything else if it pops up later on.

5) Take the water away? No! He must have water to rehydrate himself. If the water dish is too deep, then use a shallower one but keep water in there at all times and if he can't drink because of the twisting neck, then put his beak into the water for one or two seconds and he'll drink on his own. Just lead him to the water.

6) You may see a period of time when there is nothing but urine on the bottom of the cage. Fecal material will come out like pieces of string. That's constipation and expected for PMV. Change the paper often. A lot of urine is a normal course for this illness.

You know what you are doing and are better than you think you are. If you could insert a syringe and flush out a bullet wound, this is a piece of cake.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Moxie,
As Terry has suggested, let's concentrate on getting your pij to a healthy state before worrying about where he will be going. 

When he *is* able to travel, perhaps Chuck (my husband) can make arrangements to pick him up & bring him out west. He picked up our Frank & Jesse in Denver & brought them home & has taken a couple pijjies to Terry. 

You just keep up the good work on caring for this little one & we'll do the rest.  

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Hi Moxie,
> As Terry has suggested, let's concentrate on getting your pij to a healthy state before worrying about where he will be going.
> 
> When he *is* able to travel, perhaps Chuck (my husband) can make arrangements to pick him up & bring him out west. He picked up our Frank & Jesse in Denver & brought them home & has taken a couple pijjies to Terry.
> ...


Thanks Cindy and Chuck .. maybe we can have another pigeon related reunion sometime soon!

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Thanks Cindy and Chuck .. *maybe we can have another pigeon related reunion sometime soon!*
> Terry


Sounds like a plan to me.  
Chuck was in your 'neighborhood' just last week. 

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Sounds like a plan to me.
> Chuck was in your 'neighborhood' just last week.
> 
> Cindy


Well, ask him to give me a call next time .. maybe we can grab a meal and/or spend some time admiring So Cal pigeons. If Chuck likes Italian food at all, there is a terrific little hole in the wall restaurant about a block from where we met at the duck pond park. 

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> If it were me, I'd take the gamble and start the bird on Baytril at 40 milligrams per kilogram, orally, per day (written 40 mg/kg, PO, QD) for three days and then throttle down if he makes it.


That is a pretty massive dose to keep up for 3 days, specially when all there is to go on is variation in eye colour that could be due to the light. It is double the maximum recommended dose. Most of the symptoms this bird is showing are not ones that are shared with paratyphoid.

I will usually start a course with a single double dose then continue with something like 16 mg per kilo for the rest of the course. 



> now the yellow looks, or is gray, but again, it is only AROUND the pupil. do juveniles have yellow just around the pupil??


Moxie, do you mean that the iris is grey or is there a narrow band between the pupil and the iris? Is this happening in both eyes? Loss of eye colour happens naturally to some pigeons, sometimes it is only one eye that loses colour. Our Piglet's eyes are like that.

The water is a problem. You will have to put only enough water in the container for him to suck it up without inhaling. But it has to be a deep container because he could inhale water from a broad shallow one if his head starts twisting.

Juveniles and squeakers have sludgy coloured eyes.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's the dosage right off the bottle of Baytril for pigeons with articular Salmonellosis. It says to give that for three days, then back off to the 20 mg/kg B.W. (body weight) for the next 4-10 days. 

All my pigeons of young ages have had the dull coloring to their eyes that turned much brighter or became much more colorful as they got older, not the other way around. It's kind of difficult sometimes to get good descriptions from the books because they don't define some things that well. "Iridocyclitis" is no exception. After googling the crap out of it yesterday, it's probably more of a shift towards red due to the increase in blood in the inflamed tissue of the iris. Going gray seems weird to me. Since Moxie made a big point of it, I've been worried that there's something more there. There is a conditions called "ocular leukosis" that fills the bill (like Marek's disease) in chickens (documented a lot in chickens, anyway) but I'm hoping against that family of stuff. That condition actually signals a pre-cancerous change in the lymphatic system and herpesvirus was noted to be a common cause. 

I did find a mention about another condition that mimics it (ocular leukosis) but it didn't go into a decent amount of detail as to exactly how it presents. It's a hyperproteinema caused by chronic infectious diseases (sky's the limit) which in turn stimulate the increased production of gamma globulin. One rule-out for that is dehydration.

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> That's the dosage right off the bottle of Baytril for pigeons with articular Salmonellosis. It says to give that for three days, then back off to the 20 mg/kg B.W. (body weight) for the next 4-10 days.
> 
> All my pigeons of young ages have had the dull coloring to their eyes that turned much brighter or became much more colorful as they got older, not the other way around. It's kind of difficult sometimes to get good descriptions from the books because they don't define some things that well. "Iridocyclitis" is no exception. After googling the crap out of it yesterday, it's probably more of a shift towards red due to the increase in blood in the inflamed tissue of the iris. Going gray seems weird to me. Since Moxie made a big point of it, I've been worried that there's something more there. There is a conditions called "ocular leukosis" that fills the bill (like Marek's disease) in chickens (documented a lot in chickens, anyway) but I'm hoping against that family of stuff. That condition actually signals a pre-cancerous change in the lymphatic system and herpesvirus was noted to be a common cause.
> 
> ...



Maybe we should just try to keep it simple 

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> If the bird's losing control to the point of inhaling water in the act of trying to drink, I'd not expect it to have much time. It sounds more like a "last ditch effort" is warranted and godspeed.


This is what happens with PMV and why Jules has said that she will never have water in the cage when she has a PMV pigeon. It is life threatening as regards aspiration, otherwise it has no effect on life expectancy.



> Assuming that he's a 300 gram bird, that initial dose would be 120 microliters or about halfway in between the 10 and the 15 on that tiniest syringe (the 3/10ths CC) or about 40% of the full stroke.


Are we talking about the 2.5% solution here?



> That's the dosage right off the bottle of Baytril for pigeons with articular Salmonellosis. It says to give that for three days, then back off to the 20 mg/kg B.W. (body weight) for the next 4-10 days.


I have never seen the dosage for pigeons on a bottle of Baytril except on one that had been decanted by the retailer, who sells pigeon supplies, and labelled with his own instructions. Are you certain that it was Bayer that put that lable on and not the retailer? Because the Baytril website quotes 10 - 20 mg per kilo for pigeons , by mouth, every 24 hours.


Cynthia


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Yeah! You are right John.
No need to confuse the issue with facts when guesses, alphalfa and moon beams are preferable.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Grimaldy said:


> Yeah! You are right John.
> No need to confuse the issue with facts when guesses, alphalfa and moon beams are preferable.


Very funny - not. The differences or similarities between strains of PMV, ND, END or anything else are just not relevant to this particular pigeon's PMV problem. 

Now, please take your debating society to another thread.

John


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> This is what happens with PMV and why Jules has said that she will never have water in the cage when she has a PMV pigeon. It is life threatening as regards aspiration, otherwise it has no effect on life expectancy.


I guess I'm having a little bit of a difficult time with the seeming ambiguity. I thought you said earlier that you never deprive them (PMV birds) of water as a response to my suggestion of rotating food and water to help keep the water from getting too soiled:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=186263

As a point of practicality, if a person is "out" the entire day and the bird must at needs be left unsupervised, then obviously something has to be worked out as you can't have it both ways.


cyro51 said:


> Are we talking about the 25% solution here?


I didn't realize that Baytril was produced in a 25% solution. The most concentrated stuff that I've ever had was the 10% solution. Moxie's got what I sent her and that was specifically what I was referring to and it is the 10% stuff. I'm aware that you've stated before that you feel the 10% solution is too strong and that you usually use the 2.5% stuff. I've always used the 10% solution and have never had a problem so I don't have any basis to press for agreement with you on that point so I never brought it up.


cyro51 said:


> I have never seen the dosage for pigeons on a bottle of Baytril except on one that had been decanted by the retailer, who sells pigeon supplies, and labelled with his own instructions. Are you certain that it was Bayer that put that lable on and not the retailer? Because the Baytril website quotes 10 - 20 mg per kilo for pigeons , by mouth, every 24 hours.


Yes, and this bottle had two or three layers of aftermarket labels. I peeled the outer ones off to get to the bottom one, which was the true manufacturer's label. Would you like me to post a picture tonight? I'll grant you that it isn't real Baytril by Bayer--it's a generic 10% Enrofloxacin.

As far as the discrepancy between what you see on the Bayer website (and I acknowledge that you're correct about what it posts, never disputed that) and what you see in the formularies and this bottle, my personal opinion would be to chalk it up to the original intent of the pharmaceutical company that generated it--economics. This antibiotic wasn't created with the intent of treating the world's avian ills, bird by bird--it was formulated and marketed to treat massive quantities of animals for the sake of food production and the name of the game is the maximum amount of good from the minimum amount of product. Which may mean limited casualties. 

As rehabbers, we don't go by common sense--we're out to save the worst cases, the ones the vets would put down in a heartbeat. So, if the formulary in the books, which ARE written with the intent of saving the one, and not the many, say that the upper limit is 40 milligrams of pure medication per kilogram of bird per day and the bottle's manufacturer's label indicates the same, well... I guess I just don't have a problem with it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I should add that my bird isn't that bad (no torticollis--just exaggerated motor control and that not always) so water's fine to leave in there. For a bird that is as bad as Moxie indicates and as bad as many that you've had, Cynthia, I wouldn't imagine to leave them with water. I'd probably tube them for it several times per day and figure out a way to keep them upright for awhile afterwards in order to prevent aspiration. Or, let them drink under supervision if they can manage it at scheduled times. The point is that the method of getting enough water into the bird is going to be dependent on the bird, the circumstances and the rehabber's abilities.

Incidentally, I found this interesting webpage regarding the commercial production of poultry. I was surprised to find a reference to torticollis in the Pasteurella section:

http://www.asasea.com/pd-sect5.html

It indicates that that particular presentation of torticollis is due to otitis interna (infection of the inner ear). That's a new one--I don't think we've ever considered that possibility here.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I


> guess I'm having a little bit of a difficult time with the seeming ambiguity. I thought you said earlier that you never deprive them (PMV birds) of water as a response to my suggestion of rotating food and water to help keep the water from getting too soiled:


No ambiguity there, as I said *Jules* said that she will never have water in the cage when she has a PMV pigeon. 

Depriving water increases stress and mortality which is why *I* provide water in a container that allows them to sip without inhaling if their head turns over or they fall over.

Jules keeps her patients in a cage next to her desk so is able to give them water regularly.



> didn't realize that Baytril was produced in a 25% solution.


Sorry about the typo. We discussed this same typo by PM a couple of weeks ago. All I wanted to establish was the strength of Baytril that the syringe measurements referred to. I think that is important.


Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> It indicates that that particular presentation of torticollis is due to otitis interna (infection of the inner ear). That's a new one--I don't think we've ever considered that possibility here.


We haven't discussed it here but it has been put forward as an alternative diagnosis for balance problems in the past by Pigeon Person. In this case the pigeon (has it got a name Moxie?) has other symptoms that indicate PMV and not ear infection.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i dont name them after i got the first one that died. seems kind of cold, in a way, not to name them, but it's so hard when they die, it almost makes it harder when they are named. i know, it seems so clinical.
i have to go, but i gave the last dose of flagyl last night. i am leaving him be for now, and am going to look at his eyes again. i swear they were yellow, and now gray. and yes Cynthia, it is only gray around the pupil, and around the gray is the reddish brown color..
i've had him in the same room, so i am going to look again in all the different types of light in that room, night, day, light on/off. to be sure. and see if it's turning any grayer...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Often, Moxie, the iris has a kind of rainbow quality where a color variation exists from the border of the actual pupil (black center) outward to the sclera (the white part on our eyes but it's dark on them). I do not know whether this symptom (if it's real) is significant or not but it is something to note, as everything is in a case like this. We like it when things are straightforward and pat, establishing a firm diagnosis and directing the course of treatment (or not) with certainty, especially when we're all in perfect agreement. That doesn't always happen and egos sometimes flare. Sometimes we hide it well and sometimes not. I've got one and I'll admit it. Welcome to the forum, kid.

Anyhow, some birds have an exaggerated yellow or even whitish inner ring just around the pupil. I suppose that it's something to note whether you're perceiving that only that portion is going gray or whether the color shift is spreading outward, too. I spent a signficant amount of time yesterday trying to sleuth out if that was signficant or not and tried to sum it up with that one post. Kinda' feel stupid for even trying, now. Anyway, keep an eye out for any other changes, for posterity if nothing else.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> dont name them after i got the first one that died. seems kind of cold, in a way, not to name them, but it's so hard when they die, it almost makes it harder when they are named. i know, it seems so clinical.


I didn't name my last 6 rescues for the same reason. It definitely make it harder when they are named , not only when they die but also when they are released.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've tried that but Lin (who ALWAYS gives me grief when I've brought home "another one!?!") ALWAYS ends up naming them if I don't.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We almost always name ours. There have been a few that died almost as soon as we got them that were not named but I always want them to have an identity that belongs just to them. It helps me remember them better too.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> *Well, ask him to give me a call next time* ..
> 
> *maybe we can grab a meal and/or spend some time admiring So Cal pigeons. *
> *If Chuck likes Italian food at all*, there is a terrific little hole in the wall restaurant about a block from where we met at the duck pond park.
> ...


Will do Terry.  

He would be up for both.  
He loves Italian food! Actually, that sounds pretty good right now.  

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Lady Tarheel said:


> We almost always name ours. There have been a few that died almost as soon as we got them that were not named but I always want them to have an identity that belongs just to them. It helps me remember them better too.



We also name them, always. If I can't think of a name, Lee comes up with one. He doesn't want the to die without a name. It does help to remember them better.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i've tried a million different lights, and it's stll grey.
i swear it was yellow before, but i didnt think the eye color mattered except to age. so maybe it just looked yellow at the time. 
the greay hasn't moved any further out. does it have to cover the entire eye to mean bad infection? darn, pidgey, i'm sorry you spent so much time researching for me. i feel real bad now.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> it is only gray around the pupil, and around the gray is the reddish brown color..


Is the grey inside the pupil or on the iris?

If there is a change of colour (cloudiness or cataract) in the pupil then you have cause to worry because that could be a result of herpes or a salmonella infection.

Loss of eye colour in both eyes can be the result of a generalised infection or anemia. But that would be when all the yellow or red part fades.

Loss of colour in one eye is probably caused by a mild circulation problem.

I can e-mail you some photos to look at, I would rather not download them here because of breach of copyright. Then you can see what a diseased eye looks like and compare. Personally I don't think that you have anything to worry about but I know that you need to be sure.

I will need your e-mail address to send an attachment because the site mail doesn't have that facility.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, it's not the actual pupil, it is a band or circle of color AROUND the pupil, then around that band/circle of grey, is the reddish brown color.
so it goes, black pupil, then grey circle, then reddish brown circle.
in BOTH eyes...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that's the inner circle of the iris. It's a lot easier to tell when a bright yellow turns gray rather than when the reddish brown goes a little grayer.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

So the yellow bit in this photo is the area that is grey?

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dpigeon%2Beyes%26xargs%3D0%26fr%3Dslv1-mdp%26b%3D41&w=200&h=200&imgurl=www.toppigeons.nl%2Fafb%2Finf776.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toppigeons.nl%2Fen%2Fnieuws.php%3Fid%3D776&size=26.8kB&name=inf776.jpg&p=pigeon+eyes&type=jpeg&no=48&tt=181&oid=6f2dceaee48d4428&ei=UTF-8


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, it is that area that is grey. the same area that is lighter in the pigeons eye. from the pic from the link you just posted Cynthia.
except, my pidgey's ring of color is bigger than that one. that one in the pic is so subtle. mine isnt subtle at all. maybe i will try and get a pic. 
listen, i am going to work and wont be back until later sunday...
see you all then!!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, also, instead of his poo being bright grass green, it is the color of a light green olive. does that mean anything??
the jarred green olives, light olive green? with the white top..


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, sometimes, the lighter the green, the less the bile, which often indicates a pancreatic disorder. I can't speak for the typical color of PMV birds' poop. If I didn't have that indication, I'd probably tend towards a bacterial infection and try a few tests that you don't have the stuff with which to do. I've seen plenty of lighter poops out of healthy birds but not usually ALL of them being that way. Is that how it is here?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> it is the color of a light green olive


That sounds pretty normal to me as long as the consistency is right. The pigeons in my aviary have poop that varies in colour from terracota to the green that you describe, according to their food preferences. As long as they are firm poops and with white urates crowning them they are healthy.

And that reminds me, does he shed down feathers overnight? That is a good sign.

Be prepared to receive photos of healthy poops! 

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,

I have just been in the aviary to check my own pigeons' eyes. The first had a yellow band round the pupil, the second one's band was grey and the third had a white band (he is the pigeon that lost his eye colour a couple of years ago).

So I would say there is nothing to wory about.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> oh, also, instead of his poo being bright grass green, it is the color of a light green olive. does that mean anything??
> the jarred green olives, light olive green? with the white top..


Below is a pic of a healthy poop from one of my pmv rescues:


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

what do you mean by shedding down feathers??
when i get too close to him, he puffs up SO BIG!! like a cat's fur standing up when it hisses. i've never seen a pigeon puff up like that, have you??


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> what do you mean by shedding down feathers??
> when i get too close to him, *he puffs up SO BIG*!! like a cat's fur standing up when it hisses. i've never seen a pigeon puff up like that, have you??


I have. Squeaks does his Puffball imitation at times too. Bird looks like he has NO neck OR feet! Just two eyes and a beak surrounded by FEATHERS!  

He also has soft downy feathers in his nest with his papers and egg!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

A healthy pigeon will shed a few of those very soft small feathers overnight, so in the morning you find the nice rounded poops with a few of these feathers resting on them.

Flakey used to puff himself into a big white ball when he was feeling aggressive towards us.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, thought i'd update on PMV, he is still having symptoms, I am giving arnica, calcium and bird vitamins, thanks to Sabina and Aias! and puppy chow.
Cynthia, he is now shedding down feathers now.
still the gray around pupil, hasnt gone any further though. he is preening on occasion, the poops change here and there, from olive green to forest pine. isnt it so nice to reference forests and olives in descriptions of pijjie poo?
so, the thing is, he/she wheezes a lot, i keep the water so very very low, and do take it away sometimes. but he wheezes a lot. especially when i am close, when he starts to breathe heavy, is when it is most noticable. and it's not a healthy pigeon being out of breath sound, it's a wheeze. a few times he has sneezed/wheezed/coughed up a bit of water. 
i guess for now i'm just assuming to give it more time??


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,

I haven't seen wheezing in connection with PMV, it could be stress or a respiratory infection. However PMV lowers a pigeon's resistance to aspergillosis and canker so those two have to be considered and hopefully eliminated as a cause. 

Can you look inside his mouth, check for canker lesions but also look at the glottis (the hole in the middle of the tongue) and see if it is round and gaping or if there is a bluish tinge to the mouth.

Also, can you confirm that he wasn't given Brewers Yeast while on antibiotics?

Cynthia


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

How long has the pigeon been wheezing? How well can he drink water on his own? It sounds like you're thinking maybe he's aspirating the water. In which case maybe you should just syringe it instead of letting him drink, especially if he's coughing up water...
Our PMV pigeon never wheezed, by the way.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

brewers yeast? why would he have had that? i dont see a bluish tint, or canker, i usually check for that when i tune feed him or just feed him. 
what is aspergillosis? 
i know he aspirated water once, that was a while ago. but i havent seen him do it since. the first time was when i let him out, and he got to a measuring cup of water i had out and just dunked his whole head under and started to have those twitches in his head. so now i leave maybe a 1/2 inch water, if that. and i've watched him drink outta that and he seems to do fine.
maybe i'll tube anyways..
how much puppy chow, howmany times a day should i be giving him? and water, if i tube it, also?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

we generally give about 25 pieces of puppy chow twice a day.

you didn't answer about how long he's been wheezing?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, honestly, i think he's been wheezing since i've had him. i guess i thought at first the antibiotics would take care of it, then keeping deep water away, but it's still there..


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> brewers yeast? why would he have had that?


Brewers yeast given at the same time as antibiotics can cause aspergillosis. One of our members found that a lot of his PMV pigeons had aspergillosis, I understand that he was giving brewers yeast for its vitamin content and antibiotic for possible secondary infections. I was concerned that this combination might have been suggested to you. I am glad that I was wrong.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, there's this lady up here that is a rehabber (NOT the one i took BB to) and she lives in the city so she usually only sees pigeons, stray cats, etc. i talked to her about BB when i had him, and that was after i saw the other lady and thought he was fine.
anyways, she's really cool, she's a vegan, and has been starting her own business, has a yoga studio. so she said she's gotten out of rehabbing. 
so, i wanted to call her and ask her about her experience with PMV here in boston, and we played phone tag for a bit, considering i dont have a cell, and we are both so busy. she works like 12-18 hour days.
finally got in touch with her, I told her about BB and she was appalled that the first rehab lady had sent him on his way with no fecals or anything. she said she didnt know that the rehab lady hadnt given him a full check up. even though she's out of rehabbing, that i should call her anyways if i run into the same problems again, especially knowing there isnt much help up here, and she'll help how she can. About PMV, she said that she has seen PMV, but about half the time when showing PMV symptoms, it turned out to be lead poisoning. wanted me to bring her the bird to take to an avian vet in the middle of nowhere massachussetts. she said she was sorry, didnt want it to seem like she was brushing me off before, just she doesnt have the time anymore, but on the other hand wouldnt be able to sleep at night knowing i couldnt get him seen anywhere, and was under the impression that BB was fine, as was I. 
since it seems like i'll have more birds in the future, she offered me the option of any time i find a bird, i can bring it to her, i'll take her car and spend the time to go out to the vet and take care of the stuff that takes up a bunch of time, as she doesnt have any time. and she'll pay the vet bills. of course, when she can do it. she's not always in town either. this way she can still be involved in rehab, i'll be able to get the help i need, and we can both sleep well. 
so i'm waiting on her to take him to the vet, tomorrow i couldnt do the drive, to see what the labs come up with. also, she has a flock that lives in her backyard and fly's free that he can be introduced to, and considering i saw that darn hawk eat ANOTHER on of my flock today i think thats a better idea. there is a few hawks here now eating my pijjies. today my flock all flew up and i saw the hawk come out of nowhere and collide with a pigeon, then there were feathers raining out of the sky and they were both gone. i tried to follow him, and i was yelling "NO NO NO NOOO!" and the city i live in just started something called the "pigeon patrol" or something, trying to kill off all the pigeons. the guy that started it lives right next door to me, i feel like knocking on his door and cussing him out!! they were praising him on his work in the paper here. saying pigeons are full of diseases, could kill everones children, you know, the usual scare tactics. funny thing, he always sees me feeding the pigeons and gives me dirty looks. 
anyways, wish little PMV luck, i actually hope it is PMV, after talking to her about lead poisoning. i guess lead poisoning is pretty common up here..


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This sounds like a promising relationship, Moxie. Just be really careful .. it's one thing for someone to offer to pay for things and another to have that actually happen. I'd hate for you to be at a vet office somewhere and have to cough up the fees when you weren't expecting to do so. I'm not trying to discourage this relationship/arrangement .. just suggesting that you be careful about it. It's also pretty unusual for someone to offer the use of their car .. think carefully.

Lead/hardware poisoning does happen as does chemical poisoning and does sometimes look very much like PMV.

I hope this lady is really on the up and up with you and will help as she has offered to.

Terry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ya, i know, i've had way too many pigeon related relationships fall apart for one reason or another. when it only is hurting the bird, and people up here always tell me it's hard to get help, then they cant/wont help or just dont know what they are doing. 
this lady seems ok, but you do never know. she did kind of get down on me for getting advice of the internet, but i told her about this site and how many experts run it, but she didnt really want to hear it. but i'm sure she's seen a lot of injured birds because of people reading false stuff off of webpages, instead of a forum like this where you learn who to ask because everyone on here has their own expertise....


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, this lady sounds almost too good to be true so I would approach everything with caution.

We have had pigeons with both lead poisoning and PMV. Frankly, while there may be some similarities, I have found that pigeons with lead poisoning are much, much sicker than those with PMV and a radiograph, in most cases, can locate the lead in a pigeon's body. The mortality rate for lead poisoning is high whereas most PMV pigeons can survive. I would rather get in a pigeon with almost anything other than lead poisoning.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hi all, i just let Aias know that he posted the BB pics on the wrong thread (oops!!), he meant to post it on the "feral with broken leg thread." Can a moderator please move the last few posts to the right thread?
Thanks!!
Sabina


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

While I noticed that, I decided to let it slide so as not to give the boy a complex. I see you have no such reservations.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

sabina said:


> Hi all, i just let Aias know that he posted the BB pics on the wrong thread (oops!!), he meant to post it on the "feral with broken leg thread." *Can a moderator please move the last few posts to the right thread? *
> Thanks!!
> Sabina


I am happy to oblige

*************DONE************


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