# Feral Pigeon- Parents Not Feeding



## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Everybody!
LTNS!
I've got a feral baby in a box on my patio I'm pretty sure he's around 7 days??? Yellow down and some pin feathers.
The parents have been leaving him alone for 12 hour stretches and he just squeaks a LOT!!! 
How often should he be fed?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi New Pigie,

This is from *"Feral Pigeons" by Richard F Johnston and Marian Janiga*, and it is based on deliberate observation and record keeping*:"From about day 7, young beg persistently and loudly, stretching up and pushing toward the arriving adult, which ordinarily gives an announcement call (Cramp 1985). Until this time, the young have been fed three or four times daily, but will now receive only two feedings per day, in the morning and the afternoon (Kotov 1978)."*

That covers the feedings. As for brooding, they say:

*At hatching, body temperature ranges from 31.5 degrees C and no appreciable rise of temperature occurs on the day of hatching (Sengupta 1974)...the body temperature of a squab rises slowly on day 2 and reaches 34 degrees C to 35 degres C on day 7 (Sengupta 1974)..squabs normally are brooded continuously for the first 6 to 7 days, although not on day 7 if they have achieved endothermy (Kotov 1978) Squabs usually reach 37 degrees on day 8...Nestlings may be brooded until day 13, but some are brooded at night until day 18.*

7 days seems a bit early for the parents to be leaving them for long periods. It is usaully after day 10, when the squabs have achieved adult thermoregulation, that the adults begin to leave them alone but under observation.

Cynthia


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi cyro-
I can't thank you enough.
My husband and I have decided we may be off a few days .. he may be closer to 9 or even 10 days old... SO the above scenario would fit just right.

I really appreciate your help.

Yesterday at around 11 am he was squeaking like crazy and I climbed up the ladder to have a look ... we hadn't seen the parents AT ALL since the prior morning... and we had been out in the yard all day. His crop was so empty it was sunken in and he looked very weak. 

We found his little nest mate had perished. We removed him and I went ahead and fed the remaining one some Kaytee formula from a nipple in the nest. He went at it voraciously. He perked right up. We had to leave for the day shortly after. 

.. No sign of the parents yet today.

I'd rather not interfere unless it's totally necessary. 
Is it a bad idea to supplement this way? 
Big Daddy has always been such a doting father ... I don't get his absense at all this time. 

PS I'm in PHX and it's still very warm.

ANY advice is welcome!

Thank you,
Leslie


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Leslie, I would keep a close eye out for the parents. I'm rather suspicious since you said you had found the nest mate dead. It could be you will need to intervene with this baby after all.


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Charis said:


> Leslie, I would keep a close eye out for the parents. I'm rather suspicious since you said you had found the nest mate dead. It could be you will need to intervene with this baby after all.


HI Charis- 
I'm keeping a very close eye on him.
Something else odd ... two other ferals that live in a tree in my yard have been hanging around the nest box. On top of it and on the window ledge next to it. 
I wasn't surprised to find the second-hatched had died. I never saw him fighting to feed like the one I assumed was first.
He was so tiny. He had no signs of trauma. 

I forgot to mention that right before we left yesterday .. after I had fed the baby some formula... the Dad showed up... and fed him briefly.

One more question:
I've had many squeakers living on my patio. I've never known one to squeak unless the parents were there.
If he's all alone in there and squeaking .. does that mean he's REALLY hungry?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I agree with Charis. If you take him in for the night, keep him warm and fill his crop up you won't be doing any harm even if the parents return. But as Charis said, the dead nestmate is a bad sign.

Cynthia


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

cyro51 said:


> I agree with Charis. If you take him in for the night, keep him warm and fill his crop up you won't be doing any harm even if the parents return. But as Charis said, the dead nestmate is a bad sign.
> 
> Cynthia


I've actually had 6 feral broods .. same Big Daddy all different moms.
The second hatched has never made it past 10 days.
Lost the last one to canker. (Took him to a rehabber) 
I think Daddy is a carrier.
Yesterday I fed him IN the nest.
Would it hurt to put Spartrix is it? In his formula if I feed him again?
I'm sorry to be all over the place here.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?category=Medicine+>>+Canker:Ronidazole&no=950&searchpath=5707212

You could order this.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

NewPigie said:


> I've actually had 6 feral broods .. same Big Daddy all different moms.
> The second hatched has never made it past 10 days.
> 
> * *Lost the last one to canker. (Took him to a rehabber) *
> ...


* I'm sorry to hear he didn't make it. 
Is that the little one you brought over to me, before going to the rehabber?
If so, he _was_ terribly sick.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> The second hatched has never made it past 10 days.


That sounds more like salmonellosis. Have a look at the fifth symptom in this list :

Symptoms:

* Cock birds may appear fine one day, be dead the next
* Hens show weight loss, sticky droppings, swollen wing joint at elbow
* Eggs turn black and appear rotten
* Hatchlings begin to hatch then die in shell
** Seven to ten day old youngsters show diarrhea, dehydration and death - often, of two in a nest, only one is affected* 
* Twisting of the neck may occur, but this is more common with PMV

http://www.pigeon-aid.org.uk/pa/html/paratyphoid.html

All pigeons carry some trichomonads (the organism that causes canker).

Cynthia




All pigeons carry some trichomonads (the organism that causes canker0.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You're right Cynthia.... it could be that in addition to canker.


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> * I'm sorry to hear he didn't make it.
> Is that the little one you brought over to me, before going to the rehabber?
> If so, he _was_ terribly sick.
> 
> Cindy


Hi Cindy!
Yes ... it was little Cinco who didn't make it. (We tried). 

I did manage to get some Spartrix to Big Daddy... so hopefully he hasn't passed canker on to the newest baby. The last 2 eggs didn't hatch at all.

I fed the new baby again this morning around 11.


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

cyro51 said:


> That sounds more like salmonellosis. Have a look at the fifth symptom in this list :
> 
> Symptoms:
> 
> ...



What I've seen so far .. is the second to hatch not thriving and not getting fed as much. On most occasions one just seemed from the start to be much smaller and not as strong.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The parent birds will pass some trichomonads to their young when feeding them, this exposes the young to the organism gradually and they are able to build up a natural immunity. The number of trichomonads that are passed can be increased when a bird is under stress and this is when the youngsters could develop an overburden which leads to canker.

The symptoms of canker don't appear until 6 days after infection.

Where there is salmonella one of a pair of squabs will fail to thrive, so when one squab is significantly smaller than the other there is a strong chance that the parents are carriers of salmonella. The remedy of choice for salmonellosis is Enrofloxacin, , 10-20 mg per kilo bw by mouth once a day. Or if put in water, 37 - 150 mg /liter.

But Enrofloxacin could affect bone developement in squabs. Clavamox is alos effective against salmonella, but not as effective as Enrofloxacin.

You also have to remember that when you medicate adult birds that are crop feeding the medication will be passed to the babies.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> The parent birds will pass some trichomonads to their young when feeding them, this exposes the young to the organism gradually and they are able to build up a natural immunity. The number of trichomonads that are passed can be increased when a bird is under stress and this is when the youngsters could develop an overburden which leads to canker.
> 
> The symptoms of canker don't appear until 6 days after infection.
> 
> ...


Feralpigeon asked Dr Spears about Baytril and the generics of it , in the treatment of squabs and his explanation was that the treated squab may be a bit smaller as an adult but weighing that with the illness, it is better to use it as a treatment. I have used it for squabs and have not noticed any difference in their development.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Feralpigeon asked Dr Spears about Baytril and the generics of it , in the treatment of squabs and his explanation was that the treated squab may be a bit smaller as an adult but weighing that with the illness, it is better to use it as a treatment. I have used it for squabs and have not noticed any difference in their development.


Thanks Charis. I don't think there is a high risk with birds, the Baytril site mentions that enrofloxacin can affect the development of bones in puppies but it doesn't mention it having this effect on any other animals.

Cynthia


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Hey all-
Thanks for your help.
No sign of Big Daddy or Mom at all yesterday.

I've left the baby in the nest .. it's still warm here in Phoenix .. and he seems to be doing well.

I'm feeding him approx 3-4 ml Kaytee exact. once in the morning and once before the sun goes down. I'm using and eye dropper bulb and filling it with a syringe. Then a little bit of water after feeding to make sure the beak and nose are cleared. It's messy but he does really well this way.

My question...
Is 3-4 ml twice a day enough for a 10 day old?

PS ..FYI his poops look fine and he is very active.

TIA for any advice.
Leslie


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

I hope somehwere there is a sticky with whole protocol on feeding nestlings. Meanwhile feed him every time, when his crop is fully emty. That maybe a 4 times a day (every 3 hrs) depends how quickly he digest the food. At 10days old he should get more into the formula then just a kaytee.We should have here somehwere also sticky with the protocol for that.
Let us know, if you dont find it the sticky. I will go and start looking for it my self also.
Later. Nell


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

corvid said:


> I hope somehwere there is a sticky with whole protocol on feeding nestlings. Meanwhile feed him every time, when his crop is fully emty. That maybe a 4 times a day (every 3 hrs) depends how quickly he digest the food. At 10days old he should get more into the formula then just a kaytee.We should have here somehwere also sticky with the protocol for that.
> Let us know, if you dont find it the sticky. I will go and start looking for it my self also.
> Later. Nell


I've been looking without luck so far. Can't find it.

I came back from voting and his crop was empty so i fed him a little more. 
He was really going after it...


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

okay, then i will type for you diet im using for them;
1 jar of baby food chicken
1hard boiled egg yolk
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt
1/4 teaspoon corn oil
Calcium(carbonate) i crush 1 tablet into the mix
2 drops cod-liver oil(from gel cap)
1 drop diluted VIT E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil) 
pinch of VIT C
smaller pinch of VIT B-complex

Mix all ingredients.Keep food refrigerated , cause from the staff above you will made for a day or two. When preparing to feed it, take out amount you need, feel the syringe or what ever you using, put it in very warm water, and when will warms to your wrist temperature start feeding.At this age is okay to keep his food in refrigerator for 2 days.Dont reused food , which was warmed and left it - disregarded.

Take care. Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Ps forgot to say mixed that with Kaytee and some of mixed grain baby syrio. Sorry

Nell


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

corvid said:


> okay, then i will type for you diet im using for them;
> 1 jar of baby food chicken
> 1hard boiled egg yolk
> 1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt
> ...



Is all of that really necessary?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Resources Forum*

You will find some good threads in the Resources Forum regarding feeding baby pigeons.

Terry


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

im sorry PIgie, i know it is pain in neck. If that is too much to do for you then you will not do it. I get that. Some people raise them on Kaytee only. I would not, but i get it and appreciate, that you did step in in the first place to do anything for that baby. 

Good luck. Nell


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

corvid said:


> im sorry PIgie, i know it is pain in neck. If that is too much to do for you then you will not do it. I get that. Some people raise them on Kaytee only. I would not, but i get it and appreciate, that you did step in in the first place to do anything for that baby.
> 
> Good luck. Nell


Thank you .. he's doing really well .. I will do my best to grab everything on that list .. but I've already got my hands full here! I'm still hoping that Big Daddy is going to come back to care for him so I'm hesitating to even remove him from the nest .. I'd like to just sort of supplement when I see his crop empty and he is squeaking much .. and hope for the best.

Please understand how many times (11) I've had my heart broken with this feral family ... and their babies.  and I'm getting ready to do some traveling so I've got to stay practical.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

NewPigie...A few posts back, you asked if 3-4 mls twice a day is enough and it is not. It would be great if we could see a picture but I'm thinking you should be feeding 7-10ml, 3- 4 times a day depending upon how quickly his crop empties.
At this point, if you haven't noticed the parents come back, I would bring him inside and conceder him abandoned. I do remember your saga with the feral flock around your house and I know it is painful for you to loose one after the other.
Smart parents knew where to nest. Their fate would be much different had they chosen a Pigeon hater's property to raise their young. Thank goodness for you.
If you need to go travel before the baby is ready to be on his own, we do know of a rehabber in Phoenix that may be able to take over.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I will feed youngtsers by the "syringe and balloon" method http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm until the crop is squishy, then feed again when it is empty.

This is from information provided by Nooti, one of our moderators. I am not at all sure about feeding a 2 week old pigeon 40 ml in one go, it really depends on the size of the crop, so I keep checking that it is nice and squishy. But for guidance:



> At 1 week, they should be on 15mls and will only need feeding every 6 hours. Then you can get a nights sleep. At 2 weeks of age if they are growing ok, mine are usually on 40mls every 8 hours. Never give more than 40 mls at one sitting. Mine are usually picking up for themselves - the earliest has been 20 days, but certainly by 4 weeks.
> 
> Keep a daily weight record, that way you spot problems immediately and can take appropriate action. Make sure all utensils are sterilized, best using a steam sterilizer, however you can dispense with this at 1 week of age, but keep all feeding utensils in fridge in between feeds.
> 
> Have some antibiotics handy. Amoxycillin is best. Baytril inhibits bone growth and should only be used in an absolute emergency. Give antibiotics at the first sign of any trouble. I have found you cannot afford to take any chances, at that age they are not as tough as people think they are. A general dose would be 0.1ml per 100 gms body weight twice daily for 5 days. 48 hours after the last dose, give a probiotic to replace the natural gut bacteria, which will have been destroyed by the antibiotic, which is not discerning when it comes to killing bacteria. This is vital, as once a bird has had a course of antibiotics it is vulnerable to invasion by any nasties which may be lurking and ready to invade a 'clean' digestive system.


Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> I will feed youngtsers by the "syringe and balloon" method http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm until the crop is squishy, then feed again when it is empty.
> 
> This is from information provided by Nooti, one of our moderators. I am not at all sure about feeding a 2 week old pigeon 40 ml in one go, it really depends on the size of the crop, so I keep checking that it is nice and squishy. But for guidance:
> 
> ...


40 ml would be way, way too much I'm sure that is a typing error.


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Pigie, I moved from Phoenix , AZ , where i was a licensed rehabber for a song birds.
I can get you in contact with licensed rehabbers in your area, so they would take a bird from You , as you planing a trip anyway. That would be the best option for a bird in that situation. At that age he has to be fed appropriate amounts and intervals following the protocols. Please let me know , if you want those rehabbers phone numbers.

Nell


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> 40 ml would be way, way too much I'm sure that is a typing error.


That is what I think too, but have been unable to confirm that with Helen.

Cynthia


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Good news! Big Daddy returned yesterday afternoon and fed the baby .. who seems very happy. When I got up this morning I checked on him and his little crop was full .. and he was very active ...so he must have been fed this morning as well.
Thank you all for your guidance. I will continue to monitor him closely.


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Charis said:


> NewPigie...A few posts back, you asked if 3-4 mls twice a day is enough and it is not. It would be great if we could see a picture but I'm thinking you should be feeding 7-10ml, 3- 4 times a day depending upon how quickly his crop empties.
> At this point, if you haven't noticed the parents come back, I would bring him inside and conceder him abandoned. I do remember your saga with the feral flock around your house and I know it is painful for you to loose one after the other.
> Smart parents knew where to nest. Their fate would be much different had they chosen a Pigeon hater's property to raise their young. Thank goodness for you.
> If you need to go travel before the baby is ready to be on his own, we do know of a rehabber in Phoenix that may be able to take over.


The parents are still around ... for some reason they weren't feeding for a day and a half... I went ahead and put seed down on the ground under the nest to draw them back .. and it obviously worked. Thanks again.

I'd much rather not take him to a rehabber. Last time I took one of Big Daddy's babies to a rehabber he was heartbroken for weeks. 

Looks like everything is going to be fine.


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

UPDATE!

All's well in Big Daddyville! He was just here and fed the (happy) baby.
Back on schedule.

I have treated them all for canker now and let's hope for the best!
I had every faith BD would return .. He's never let us down! 

We think the reason he left was the death of the nest mate.
He stayed gone the day we think it died and for a day after we removed it .. we put down seed and water and he's BACK! 

Happy Ending!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news updates! Let's hope that all continues to be well for Big Daddy and family!

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

So glad to hear all is going well. 

Cindy


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the input and advice. Big Daddy stayed very close to the nest all day. I saw him feed baby Gusto .. 3 times! And he must have fed him right before I woke up this morning too as his little crop was full.

Can you tell I'm REALLY thrilled about this?


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

yes we can


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just a little bit. LOL.


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

This morning when I woke up .. he was gone ... The baby was in the nest ..just fine last night!... I checked in on him right before I went to bed at 11:00 PM.
When I went out this morning and didn't see his little head pop up to say good morning ...I climbed the ladder and the nest was empty.
I assumed he had fallen out and that he was hiding in the clump of potted plants below. I jumped down and searched .. nothing.
WHERE IS HE!?
BIG Daddy was just here ... crying out from the window ledge next to the nest! I don't see any feathers around and the area below is fenced off by a dog fence!! WHERE COULD HE BE? HE CAN'T FLY YET! 
I've searched the entire yard.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I am so sorry to hear the little one is missing, Leslie. 
Could it be he 'successfully' fell from the nest & wandered outside 'his' area?
Could a predator have gained access to 'his' area?

I will be thnking 'Good Thoughts' that his is found unharmed. 
PLEASE do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I am so sorry to hear the little one is missing, Leslie.
> Could it be he 'successfully' fell from the nest & wandered outside 'his' area?
> Could a predator have gained access to 'his' area?
> 
> ...


I suppose it's possible he could get out of his area...There's a little opening where the past babies pass in and out of for their 'flying lessons' A crafty predator could get access .... it's never happened before. I have two dogs .. I can't imagine a cat getting one over on them .. or even wanting to get into my yard...with the dogs ..but during the night ...I just don't know.
I've been searching the yard thinking I would hear him squeaking somewhere... nothing ... Big Daddy is just sitting on the window ledge crying out ... I do have a very large owl that I sometimes see in a tall palm tree in my yard... could an owl go into the nest and take him? 
Oh geez ... I'm so sad and perplexed.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm really sorry.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh, I'm sooo sorry. An owl could have taken him. Oh, I hope not! I hope you find the little guy unharmed and well. Please keep us updated.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Any update on the little guy?


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