# I tried everything I know, pigeon will die, please help...



## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

I have two feral pigeons, one was hand raised the other was cured after being hit by a car. Hand raised is about 6 months old and the other 4. 

It all started with vomiting, they throw up undigested seed. Sometimes seed has a very bad smell, like rotting fish. Vomiting lasts for 2 days, just once in the morning, or maybe 2 times a day. Then birds get fluffed, appetite decreases, they don't want to move around all that much, but have active periods during the day. At the same time stool becomes a bit watery, just a narrow space of water around formed feces, but feces and urine are yellow, or green, grass green or darker. This lasts for 2-3 days and then all hell brokes loose! Birds becomes active, but has watery stool and when I say watery I am talking paramyxovirus watery! Its a big splash of water with little, thin feces usually dark green, grey green or light green in color. Pigeon that is older has this stage of disease, she flies out, returns, acts normals, comes down to food box, walks around the room, but leaves puddles of water behind her. This watery stage of the disease is raging for 6 days now. With the fisrt symptoms she was on enrofloxacin (Byatril) then we switched to norfloxacin (Sallmole tab from pantex) and she was on that for 4 days, I gave electrolytes, vitamins, and probiotics every day. I tried different food, seed mix, brown rice, a type of clay powder that helps remove toxins from the system, and she is still just splashing water, crazy amounts of water. Imagine a dog training pad soaked in a hour, dripping soaked. The younger pigeon got infected in 6 days from the start of watery poop in the first pigeon. I could not keep them apart, I cleaned the room after every poop, I had different food dishes, water dishes, places of sleeping, everything but he got this disease too. This morning he is fluffed, low appetite and those yellow poops. I gave them both doxycicline today. I've been going from vet to vet from the beginning of this and no one knows what it is. Please help me if you know what it could be. Is it psittacosis? can this be adeno, paramyxo, worms? I've been reading on the internet for the past 10 days and I have no clue.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

I read just the first lines, I would say treat for fungal issues like sour crop. Feed small amounts a few times a day for a few days. 

Treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic like baytril for the what sounds like intestinal bacteria. Rest and low stress with added vitamins and mineral supplements for avians can help boost their health in the long run. Offer bathing as well and treat for any external parasites.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Here is a link on sour crop (status) and treatments: http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/cropstasissourcrop.htm 

This can happen when bird is not warm enough when being fed also if food is not warm enough, crop PH is off, and also happens when getting too many medications and can even be caused by canker. 

I would also suggest put a drop of organic apple cider vinegar in drinking water, if you haven't.

*


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello, they are both indoor. The pigeon that got sick first flies out and comes back. I feed them mixed seeds, several variations so they eat what they like, and all food is kept in my room, nice and warm, water also, I never give anything that is cold. I give them apple cider vinegar in drinking water 2 times a week and supervit (vitamins and trace element complex) once a week. I'm afraid this is not sour crop, as it is infectious. But thank you for your reply. 

Btw these pigeons sleep in my bed, that is impossible now, but they are on one of the shelves, indoor, in nice heated room, I change their beds (dog training pads) each day. As for small meals they now eat just once a day, they hardly eat anything, the older pigeon that got sick first eats few times, but the amount of food has dropped.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

From cases with similar symptoms (presently I'm struggling with an epidemy of this kind in my flock), I think they had a bacterial enteritis and crop candida. Presence of coccidiosis is not excluded as well so I would treat for all three, or at least for bacteria and candida.

The grass green or yellow green droppings are more serious and need injectable antibiotics. Lincomycin-spectinomycin is the best drug for this, if not available, then enrofloxacin. Diseasze advances very fast and if not given in time, even injectable antibiotics will become useless and the bird will die of sepsis.

For candida, nystatin, though recommnended on many pigeon webpages, it doesn't work. 

Here I want to maker the paranthesis that on lot of webpages about pigeons is a lot of wrong information, because the informatyion there is from the experience of website owner but from what he read on other webpages. Wrong information can be found even on the most authoritative websites, nothing should be absolutised and blindly trusted.

So, for candida, the only thing I found to work (beside fluconazole, which is too toxic for depressed birds) is water with higher concentration of acv. The more acv the better, but not as much as to stress the bird. Taste it yourself and if is unbearable, decrease concentration below the point where you would drink it with a little discomfort, knowing that birds are far more sensitive than humans.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Could be viral... Doxycycline's kinda' hard on their intestinal tracts so they usually lose their appetites with that. Can you get your hands on a Trimethoprim-Sulfa antibiotic? I've seen several go through tons of water when they've got Coccidiosis and Trimethoprim-Sulfa will take care of that as well as being kind of easy on them.

Pidgey


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This could also be canker. It would smell like that, the urates can become yellow, a lot of water around the droppings because they don't eat much, but do drink a lot. And canker can cause sour crop because it can cause a blockage.

I would treat for 10 days with Baytril, or like Baytril, which you have already done, and I would treat for canker with Metronidazole. Could very likely be canker.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Can you post photos with the droppings? Yellow color in them means liver damage, but what causes liver damage can be a lot of things, from infectious diseases to toxicity from ingestion of chemicals, to worms, canker etc.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can do both at the same time.

Pidgey


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, you can do both at the same time, but he has already used the Norfloxin and Baytril. 
Did you treat for 10 days with the antibiotic?
I would give Metro for 10 days and see how they are after the 10 days.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

There we have enrofloxacin as Mediflox, and it is stated in the instructions to give 3 days, after this they got 4 days of Sallmonela tab (norfloxacin) again as in instructions. The problem is that while giving these medication I had no improvement, it was only going from bad to worse.

I gave orni tab (doxicycline and spyramicine) yesterday and in the evening Roni tab (ronadizole) that covers cocci, hexamites and canker. The young pigeon has no appetite, I don't see that the poop is better, but he vomited just the big seeds he could not digest (dried pies). But the older pigeon that has been sick for longer had a vomiting spree. She vomited all from her crop and ended with some green water and even her last little stones she uses for digestion. She literary emptied her whole crop. I had her vomiting because of Ronadizole once before, so I think this could be it. I can try metronidazole on her and continue with this therapy on the younger. Can I give doxycicline, spyramicine and metronidazol together and if I can do I need to reduce dosage of one or the other?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No need to give Metronidazole if you've already administered Ronidazole. Do you have a heat lamp that you can shine down on them to keep them warm (they have to be able to get out from under it). 

They can get pretty bad like this from "hardware poisoning", too. That's where they swallowed something metal that either becomes a blockage or has a zinc coating like a staple. Only an X-Ray can tell on something like that but you usually wouldn't see two birds with the same basic symptoms.

Oh, yeah... and a bad worm infection (usually roundworms) can block them up, too. If they have a ravenous appetite and then throw up within a day or so, and then eat a ton more and then throw up again, all while losing weight... that's very often worms. Levamisole is the easiest one on them for that, but they'll wanna' throw up with that one, too.

Pidgey


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

To one I can give ronidazole, but other vomits it, poor thing was vomiting like crazy and flying after every fit. It looked like some sort of violent vomiting because she was trying to escape from something while vomiting and ahe was shaking her whole body. So I am afraid to give her ronadizole again. After vomiting she looked very tired and I was afraid she will die. But today she is OK again, she ate nicely, even was flying for some time, then returned. The poop is with a lot of water and completely dissolved in to flecks, green, like peas. She is so skinny now, but strangely acts normal. But again I can see she is becoming more and more weak.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Has any vet that you went to took a x ray? Maybe she has taken in something foreign and it is stuck somewhere in the tract. ? Just wondering...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's really starting to sound like worms.

Providing real warmth can keep them alive while the medications work, too.

Pidgey


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Both are in my apartment so they are warm.

As for ingestion, one pigeon flies out and she became sick first but the other got infected in 9 days. He never left the room, he was on the balcony from time to time but not ready to fly.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The interesting thing about Levamisole is that it also boosts the immune system, so you kind of get a double duty out of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levamisole

Pidgey


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I have been reading this thread with interest. at least you could answer my question. Have you taken a xray or Not??????


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

No, I did not take the x-ray. This is something infectious so one bird that never left the home also is sick, and it is impossible for that pigeon to eat or drink anything poisonous. I would not risk an x-ray now and stress them even more.

Sorry for answering slowly. I am working from home and constantly running of my chair because one of the pigeons wants to change the place they are resting and I need to move all dog training pads so they don't poop on the carpet or my bed.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

SilverFeral said:


> Hello,
> 
> No, I did not take the x-ray. This is something infectious so one bird that never left the home also is sick, and it is impossible for that pigeon to eat or drink anything poisonous. I would not risk an x-ray now and stress them even more.
> 
> Sorry for answering slowly. I am working from home and constantly running of my chair because one of the pigeons wants to change the place they are resting and I need to move all dog training pads so they don't poop on the carpet or my bed.


If you want to move forward and know what medicines they need a veterinarian can check a fecal sample and a crop smear to determine what kind and how much and how long of the medicines you need to use to help the birds. Doing this over the Internet with opinions from guessing from non-veterinarians, (me included), is not the best choice.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I had a pigeon once that had a copper strip of thin material in its gizzard and it showed up on a x-ray and I took the bird to a University where they did an endoscope and pulled the material out their by saving the birds life. they usually do not operate on a bird in the gizzard area because it heals slowly and sometimes not at all. If that did not work they were going to flush it out from the other end instead of its mouth for the endoscope. The symptoms seem the same that your bird is having, especially the clear liquid with strands of fecal matter because your birds kidneys are involved and impacted. For infections this could be the virus type of PMV and according to Dr. Richard Marx in A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health wrote in 1997. "in the PMV outbreaks which we have seen recently, the pigeons have very few twisted necks or vertigo. Sometimes there are mild tremors or incoordination. page.48. But if you can I suggest an x ray just to make sure you are on the right tract with the giving of the different medicines that were suggested..Hope your pigeon gets well and this would be my way to get an x ray first "If you can"...Just a suggestion.. Wishing the best..


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

My biggest problem is that I have been to each vet in my city, and that is 3. I live in Podgorica, Montenegro. I asked also in Serbia for advice. My vets tell me it is paramyxo 100% but the pigeon that has this watery poop is very active, eats etc. I know it is not paramyxo. This is why I am asking for help. I called the one vet lab we have in the city, they can do test for paramyxo with sample from cloaca but not a single vet has took the sample from pigeon, only chickens and they tell me they are afraid they will hurt them. They just told me to wait and see, and all I can see is my two birds that I love like my children wasting away. Also for an x ray they don't give anesthesia to birds because only one vet has done that and on 3 occasions where I was present, and bringing in injured wild birds. These procedures don't end well, so I would have to hold a pigeon down for an x ray and I know it is impossible for the other pigeon to eat something when he practically lives on my shoulder.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

SilverFeral said:


> My biggest problem is that I have been to each vet in my city, and that is 3. I live in Podgorica, Montenegro. I asked also in Serbia for advice. My vets tell me it is paramyxo 100% but the pigeon that has this watery poop is very active, eats etc. I know it is not paramyxo. This is why I am asking for help. I called the one vet lab we have in the city, they can do test for paramyxo with sample from cloaca but not a single vet has took the sample from pigeon, only chickens and they tell me they are afraid they will hurt them. They just told me to wait and see, and all I can see is my two birds that I love like my children wasting away. Also for an x ray they don't give anesthesia to birds because only one vet has done that and on 3 occasions where I was present, and bringing in injured wild birds. These procedures don't end well, so I would have to hold a pigeon down for an x ray and I know it is impossible for the other pigeon to eat something when he practically lives on my shoulder.


Then if you don't trust the vets you have and want to go it on you're own , go to this site and look up symptoms, look at treatment and then shop online at pigeon supply sites for medications and hope you guessed right, that is as much as anyone over the Internet can do. Here is the link.

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

That's a bummer and so sorry you have Avian vet care like that--did you bring it to a Avian Vet for they take x rays all the time. I really think your pigeon ate something that brought these symptoms on for it does sound like my pigeon Diamond whose life was saved. Your country does not seem to be very pigeon friendly as well so you have major problems to overcome here..I feel for you and I am sure hoping everything settles down and the pigeons get better--both of them...Pigeons eat all kinds of strange objects especially shiny ones as you already know I am sure but those symptoms really sound like something that stopping up its digestive area as well as kidney distress. Maybe it is PMV and the pigeon with the virus type will get well with supportive care that you are giving it...It could be so many things and I truly wish you and yours the very best...


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Also am hoping your birds will get better soon.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

The younger pigeon is on doxyciclin and spyramicin and meds for cocci, hexamites and canker. He is not getting better. This is the day 3 of the medication. I gave him probiotics this morning and it helps with the poop, it is not yellow any more, but again this happened with the first pigeon.

Something strange is happening here, no medication shows any improvident, but both pigeons are acting quite well taking in to consideration how bad everything looks. I also made a very bad discovery this morning, when I was giving the older, and more sick pigeon probiotics (which I do via syringe to be sure the dose is right - she drinks ton of water) I noticed her throat is very red, thick and tonsils are so big, they are almost bulbous and yellowish. Not like canker when you have a yellow spot, this is just crazy inflammation. The younger and less sick pigeon has a nice pink clear throat. It is not coryza as my pigeons do eat, drink a lot, and fly. So beside the throat now in the pigeon that has been sick for 12 days there is just this watery poop... I don't know if inflamed throat and tonsils are normal for paramyxo in this stage...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does sound more like canker on the one with the inflamed throat... I suppose it's possible that drinking too much water is just diluting the medication to the point of it not really being able to do its job. The wonderful thing about Metronidazole is that you can way overdose it and it's still safe.

Exactly how much of each medication are you giving them and what's the specific info on each medication (the formulation)?

Pidgey


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

I am giving this http://pharmapigeons.com/Pantex-roni-plus-100-tablets-for-pigeonl to the young pigeon that is OK with it, but he got 2 tablets down and has no improvement. He is still the same. It says in case of canker you should see a dramatic change in 24h.

I tried to give this to older pigeon and he vomits a lot, gets everything out of the system. The idea now is to see will the young pigeon get well with orni tab as you are supposed to give that for 3 days. If not then what's the point in torturing the older pigeon with this medication or metronidazole.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I had a bird once that was losing weight fast, would eat a ton and then throw it up. I did a fecal float looking for worm eggs and, voila'... there they were. So, I isolated her and gave her the Levamisole and could not BELIEVE how many roundworms came out of that little thing--her intestines must have been totally blocked up. That being said, it's possible to have more things going on than just one and it's also possible that the medications can't get where they should be going because of blockage.

Whenever I suspect trichomonads, I just do a "wet mount" slide from a swab with my microscope and confirm the diagnosis, then treat accordingly. Yes, it's a lot tougher when you're having to treat blindly.

Pidgey


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would also look for yeast organisms if you can look at a microscope slide. Our squeaker Chloe who had circovirus had yeast in her throat with redness and white globs which turned out to be staph and then yeast from antibiotics. Thank you for continuing to look for answers.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SilverFeral said:


> I am giving this http://pharmapigeons.com/Pantex-roni-plus-100-tablets-for-pigeonl to the young pigeon that is OK with it, but he got 2 tablets down and has no improvement. He is still the same. It says in case of canker you should see a dramatic change in 24h.
> 
> I tried to give this to older pigeon and he vomits a lot, gets everything out of the system. The idea now is to see will the young pigeon get well with orni tab as you are supposed to give that for 3 days. If not then what's the point in torturing the older pigeon with this medication or metronidazole.



You cannot go by what it says about seeing a dramatic change in 24 hr. That is a ridiculous statement. Spartrix says it cures canker in 3 days. Hogwash! Canker should be treated for 7 to 10 days, and sometimes takes longer. Nothing is going to cure it in 2h hrs or 3 days. Also, there are some medications that you give in tablet form that have a lot more Ronidazole in them. Seems like you are throwing a lot of different things at them. It takes longer to see results. If meds make a bird vomit, then you should give after feeding, not on an empty crop. It does help. Here, we have Pepto Bismol, which if given a few drops about 30 min before medicating, usually stops the vomiting. Metronidazole has always worked best for me, 30 mg. once daily and 50 mg. for an adult. I would give once daily for 10 days, after feeding, and if still vomiting give something like Pepto first. Baytril is wide spectrum, and would give that in the morning, and the Metro in evening. If giving antibiotics then Nystain or the like should be given also, as antibiotics can often cause yeast. I remove the water dish, and instead offer the water several times a day, so that they don't fill up on it. I let them drink a bit, then take it away. Filling up on water, they will also be vomiting, and can aspirate.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

I just want to give you an update and it might be useful for someone with a similar problem.

The older pigeon that got sick first, that poor bird I think got every single medication in the book, enrofloxacin (Byatril), norfloxacin (next generation of Byatril), doxycilin, spyramicin and an attempt of ronadizol (she vomited it). In stead of this being a bad idea that pigeon, even thou very sick, never showed that she is weak or anything. She went flying every single day, and was eating OK. After about 14 days from the first symptoms she is now out of the woods. She is eating great, drinks water normally and the poop is much much better even thou still wet - water is now just around the poop, and in moderate amount. The recovery happened almost a week after the last antibiotic, so I would not link it to medication. That bird was tough! And she made it, she is getting back the weight and is acting completely normal.

The other, younger bird, well... he got sick and was doing good. The older bird started with watery poop 5 days after the first symptoms, he started in 7 days, and it wasn't so drastic, he didn't drink so much etc. This pigeon was normally stronger so I expected that he will pull trough with less problems. After therapy with doxy I just stopped it and left him to fight as it was obvious it was a virus, as no antibiotic was helping. He was OK, strong and everything but then he just took a big turn to worse. 2 days ago I noticed him being puffed up most of the day, then he was flying bad, falling a lot, then appetite went bad, then tremors in the wings started, head is moving slightly like he is dizzy, eyes fixed sometimes. He stands with one of his wings hanging, neck stretched forward and head also, his neck and head look almost like a dart, just stretched in one direction. Now I know paramyxo 100%. The first pigeon got trough it incredibly, I know she is still sick but the body won most of the fight. The second one, I am not sure will he make it. He looks so so sick now. I am goivng electrolytes and vitamins. 

I think it is not just a case of one pigeon being in better condition than the other I really think enrofloxacin and norfloxacin can help with paramyxo. I KNOW IT IS A VIRUS, but these medications stop replication of DNA, and virus is just some RNA in a protein casing. Maybe it does work. I will try it. The poor pigeon is so bad I think I can not make more damage. I keep him on a warm bottle, feed him by hand, bring water every 3 minutes, keep him warmed in my lap almost whole day and night. Take him out to sunbathe in my lap... but he is just worse and worse by the minute. I have to try with this antibiotic and pray that it will help. If it doesn't show any improvement in 5 days I will stop...

I will keep you updated.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You have no idea what it is. Doesn't sound like PMV. Without some kind of testing, even of the droppings you cannot know what it is. You are assuming that you know. He needs medication, but hasn't been medicated with the right med. Now you say that if not improved in 5 days, you will stop the Enro. For a bird to be that sick, and to go so long without the correct med, it will take longer than 5 days to help.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Is there any way you can get a blood test for circovirus for the younger bird? Hope he improves soon. Testing for circo and testing the droppings for various problems might help you narrow down what is wrong with your birds. Can you post photos please of the younger bird and his droppings?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Most likely, from my pov, the problems are caused by candida. 

To clean the candida in crop, from my experience, the only thing that helps, and works in an efficient way, is to give water with higher concentration of acv. As high as possible, but below the point it can be distrssful. Taste it yourself and establish the ceoncentration below to the point it gives sensation of burning your mouth. Give this 3-4 times in the first day (only when the water from previous administration was absorbed) / day small amounts (6 ml for an adult pigeon, proportionally lesser for baby function of his weight). Creating and mantaining a sour environment in crop will soon clear candida.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> You have no idea what it is. Doesn't sound like PMV. Without some kind of testing, even of the droppings you cannot know what it is. You are assuming that you know. He needs medication, but hasn't been medicated with the right med. Now you say that if not improved in 5 days, you will stop the Enro. For a bird to be that sick, and to go so long without the correct med, it will take longer than 5 days to help.


*THIS ^^^, and are you hand feeding the birds that have stopped eating? That is also crucial to their survival and getting better.*


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

My biggest problem and reason I am here is that I can not get any test in my country (Montenegro). Vets here don't know anything about the birds, and I mean anything. They can't take blood, can't take swabs, anything. Even if they know all I can do is protozoa from poop but they ask me to collect 5 grams. I rule this out as younger pigeon got full medication for cocci, hexamites and canker. I know there is no way you can get diagnosis over internet, if that was possible no one would go to the vet.

I actually took my birds to all vet stations in my city with no results. 

As for the feeding I am hand feeding, but after just a first dose of byatril the young pigeon is doing much better. He eats great now, is much more active, no more fixed head, same as the previous pigeon. But the watery poop persists. The watery poop - a lot of clear water expelled with just a little poop in it, is my best bet that this is paramyxo. Recent strains are less virulent and birds can have minimal neurological signs. (I know it is not paratyphoid because previous pigeon was on full treatment for that with no results.) That and the fact that none of the antibiotics help, they just make it easy with the secondary infections. I will continue Byatril for 10 days. The reason I am afraid to use antibiotics for a long time, even thou I give the birds probiotics every day, is that here in Montenegro there is absolutely no medication for treating birds from fungal disease. I asked around and no one has anything! 

So if it helps here are the symptoms>
- pigeon acts normal but vomits undigested seed for a night or two
- pigeon becomes little sleepy and poops become soft with a bit more water, as a watery rim, they change color to yellow or grass green
- poop becomes watery and greel same as with paratyphoind
- on day 5 to 7 poop becomes wery watery. like paramyxo poop, if bird gets antibiotics it acts normal, eats good, is active etc but drinks a LOT of water.
- after about 9 days from watery poop birds starts to have more solid poop, starts to drink normal, eat very well and acts normal

No antibiotic or medication for protozoa or deworming helps.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What did you treat with for paratyphoid, and for how long?
What did you give for cocci, and for how long?
What did you give for canker, and for how long?
What did you worm with?

Also, the same thing doesn't always work for paratyphoid, so you can't just rule it out because something didn't work.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

For paratyphoind first Mediflox oral (http://www.vetmedic-pharm.com/proizvodi/mediflox-oral) in instruction it says 3 days, so I continued with Sallmonela tab from pantex (http://www.pantex.net/pigeons/salmonella-tab.html) in instructions it says max 4 days, but I gave this for 5 days. During these 8 days of enrofloxacin and norfloxacin there was no improvement and the symptoms just got worse and worse. 

For haxamites, cocci and tricho I gave Roni plus tab (http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/pantex-roni-plus-pigeons-products.html) for 4 days, again nothing happened.

For deworming I gave wormex tab (http://www.pantex.net/pigeons/wormex-tab.html). After all this mediflox, sallmonela tab went together with roni plus and later wormex, I paused and tried with orni tab (http://www.pantex.net/pigeons/orni-tab.html) it says 2 days I gave 5 days, again nothing happened. Symptoms progressed like I was giving water to the pigeon.

During all this I gave the pigeons electrolytes, probiotics and vitamins and micro-elements via water. Every day.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It sounded like canker to me from the beginning, but could have been worms as well, or candida etc.

Throwing different meds at him, and keep changing them isn't helping. When one says for salmonella, but for 4 days, well that's ridiculous. Only helps the bacteria to get stronger.

If they were mine, and no vet, and not sure, I would give Baytril for 10 days, Morning, and Metro for 10 days, evening or afternoon. Metro can make them vomit as well, so would hand feed first to put something in his crop. Also when I treat with Baytril I use Nystatin for yeast, twice daily, as it can cause yeast. If they are drinking a lot of water, I would also pull the water and offer it to them several times a day, and not let them over drink till they fill their crop. I don't like to worm birds that are already way down unless I have a good reason to think that it may be worms. 
When you wormed them, did you see any worms?
I would do these things first and see how he does.

Are you sure that you are hand feeding enough? He may be picking through the seed and not actually eating. When they are sick, they usually do not eat enough, and this will cause them to go down faster. Also will cause those droppings that you say are dark green with a lot of water.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

This morning I noticed a white film on the tongue - tip and maybe 2/3 behind it as well as a white spot on the side of the beak. Looked like a thin white film. Started with Nystation, I could find only tablets so i gave him 1/4 of a tablet (around 100 000 IU) and Ronadizol in case it is canker. I am continuing with Byatril. 

The problem is small head shakes became tremors, when he picks up seeds he tosses his head back and the seed flies out. he can manage to eat properly just a few seeds now so I am hand feeding him both seeds and peas.

He is very weak now, spends the full day just perched and puffed up. Poop is still accompanied by a lot of water, water became yellow this morning... The poop itself is OK. He looks like he can not focus things nor catch them with his beak. 

Can canker do this? Or only paramyxo or parathypoid show neurological problems? The other pigeon is OK, and never got this worse. She never had slightest neurological sign nor was she ever this weak...


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

I really need your advice, to finally decide how to proceed. It is very hard for me to make a choice as if I am wrong I can kill the poor pigeon.

So this bird was on doxy and spyramicin (orni tab) for 5 days and on ronadizole for 4 days. It got wormex tab. Now he is on enrofloxacin, 4th day, and I started today with nystatin and again with ronadyzol.

His poops look like this:
http://s29.postimg.org/b6pconssn/220220162000.jpg

earlier today feces was much more defined and in longer pieces.

And he has:

- lethargy, puffed up and sleeping most of the day
- flying off course and crash landing, he is unsure about bigger distances and does not fly on to anything, just off things
- head is slightly shaking all the time
- looks like he can not see what is in front of him, like he can not focus, only sees things if I move them away and around a bit
- can not peck normally, can not hit the seed and if he catches something he just spits it fast in some direction
- if he tries hard to swallow a seed his head goes up and back, as his neck gets in to some kind of torsion
- eyes look like they are focused in the distance, pupils big
- drinks a lot of water and drinks without a problem, but when he comes to water dish he goas around it as if he can not see it, he makes several circles before he locates where to put his head down to drink. When he walks around he raises his head high and looks down
- poop mostly consists of one or several (broken) straight pieces of feces, the urates are sometimes visible, and there is a LOt of water, sometimes the poop is just flecks and round pieces. This morning it looked like there were seeds in his poop but upon inspection the poop was just perfectly round little balls
- just noticed he is looking up a bit, his head keeps going on one side even when he sleeps
- this morning I noticed a white film on the tongue and on the side of the mouth (inside), gave him ronadizole, looked couple of hours later all is clear but tongue is a bit darker there, like a blue strip

I need your opinion is this PMV and should I continue with all these medications. I am afraid they will damage his immunity and he will die from PMV. I am thinking to just go with nystatine and ronadizole for 5 more days, and give him carrot juice and vitamins to help him fight the PMV. Of course hand feeding, keeping him warm, clean etc.

If you know, from your experience that he can take on these meds and they will not influence how the PMV goes then I would continue. I just don't have any experience with medicating birds for a long time or viruses. I worked with feral birds for a long time and I never had some serious infections. In worst case scenarion I had paratyphoid that was gone after 5 days of sallmonela tab and this feral is as strong as they get, was never sick again. Tricho I used to treat in 3 days and these squabs still visit my balcony... so for me this is just a big dilemma.

On the net I see that they advise to stop all treatment in case of PMV so that the bird has a chance to fight back, and only to medicate in case of additional infections.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

From photo, what I can tell you for sure is that is no canker, as canker make the feces of lighter color. So stop ronidazole and in future, when you treat for canker, use metronidazole, which is the proper drug. Ronidaszole is weak.

The bird may have more than one disease. The yellow color of urates may be caused by a bacteria. Letargy, lack of appetite as main symptoms are specific to bacterial infections.


Doxy is not effective for general bacterial infection and spyramicin is not very efficient against salmonella and e. coli, based on this table:
http://www.engleza-online.ro/dictionar-englez-roman.php


To rule out the danger of sepsis, which follows untreated bacterial infection, I would give the injectable antibiotic containing the combination between lincomycin and spectinomycin (depending of brand, it can have various names). In Romania is widely used and I use it frequently. I saved tens of birds that were emaciated, not eating, with green diarrhea, neurological syndroms etc. In less then two days (treatment last three days), the course of disease is reversed, the bird starts to eat normally. Oral antibiotics are not fast enough, they have to travel all digestive tract, don't pass directly into blood as injectable antibiotics, they need many days of treatment and in serious cases are not strong enough.


As for the white film which you mentioned that appeared on tongue and beak, that can be an advanced candida that passed from crop into tissues. *If* candida in tissues, you have to give Fluconazole, which is very toxic may lead to bird's death but you have not alternative. The recommended dose for Fluconazole is 1-2 mg / day but I found in the cases I met to be insufficient, it needs to be a higher amount given at a time, 3 mg. Be careful to not underdose as if you underdose, you either will have to wait the next day, alowing candida to grow even more (it grows very fast), either to give a second dose in the same day, leading to toxicity.


For crop candida, I found out that nystatin has no effect. Instead of nystatin, you have to give this treatment that you won't find on veterinary websites or anywhere else. Is something I discovered myself, starting from a advice on this forum, saying that because candida likes sweet things, you have to give it sour things. Even if is not recommended by vets, I found it to be efficient with endless ocasions, I mean maybe over 100 - 200 situations. Most or all of my birds have made at least once candida (because I use strong, injectable antibiotics and also there is an environment favorizing this) and I managed to cure them each time and presently I'm giving on average 3 administrations daily (each time I give antibiotics or I notice crop problems, as candida always appear when food doesn't circulate fast enough into gissard). So here how you do:

You have to sour the water by adding acv. The concentration must be as high as possible, but below the point it can be distressful. Taste it yourself and establish the concentration below to the point it gives sensation of burning your mouth, even if this sensqation is low. Give this 3-4 times in the first day (only when the water from previous administration or from feeding was absorbed) in small amounts (6 ml for an adult pigeon). Creating and mantaining a sour environment in crop will soon clear candida. Do not give higher amounts of water at a time, as too much liquid in crop may lead to the liquid coming into mouth, enter trachea and suffocate the bird.

Also take notice that Nystatin is a topic medicine, is designed to treat only the surfaces of body cavities. It is not absorbed into organism, it doesn't enter blood and is not designed for such situations as respiratory candida or candida that appeared in mouth. For such situations, fluconazole is recommended.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I would get it off all medicines and support feeding it with a secure warm place with plenty of hydration. Does not sound at all good and it has had a whole bunch of different medicines now I would go the natural root and see what happens. This thread has been a sad affair and I know it is just terrible for you too. Hope everything works out okay but that's what I would do.. Birdie Prayers for you and the birdie..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Those droppings show that he isn't getting enough food. Are you sure he can't eat? Or is he just throwing it? BTW, paratyphoid isn't gone after 5 day treatment, so don't know what it was. Giving the Enro for 10 days is not going to hurt him. Hard to say what it is if we can't see him or watch him. Sounds like he has yeast, which would be probable from all the different meds. Treat for yeast. All the different meds could cause the symptoms he is having. Please don't keep changing them. 
How much food is he actually getting to eat? Can you not hand feed him the soft peas which would be easy to digest?
Also, what is the Baytril dose he is getting?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

First, stop travelling the bird, keeping in your lap etc. The stress caused by balance has worse effects than the warmt you provide with your body. Let him rest in a warm and dark place. That would be the bottom of a cardboard box near a heating device. An electric pad would be ideal and is not expensive, equivalent of 20$. If you can buy one, set it to lowest level, put it on the bottom of box, put some piece of oilcloth on top of pad (to prevent it getting wet from droppings), on top of oilcloth put some newspapers (that you'll change as they get wet) and on top of newspapers put the bird surrounded by a soft cloth, that will help him keep his position while setting on belly. 



What are you feeding him and how much? Palpate his crop in the morning: is any food or water remained there over night? The bird may need soft or liquid food, if he has an enteritis.




Being *puffed up* is because feels cold, which is because he doesn't get enough food, and this is either because you feed him insufficiently or because has some problems preventing the food to get from crop into body. This in turn can be caused by one of these conditions:

- *an enteritis* - infection of bowel - that makes him unable to digest hard food, the seeds remaining in crop. The enteritis usually gets complicated with crop candida, the latter worsening the crop blockage 

- a *crop blockage* from other cause: ingestion of an object that remained in crop (like a paper clip) or over eating, leading to over fill of the crop (the latter apparently not your case). This also is accompaniated by candida overgerowing in crop.

- a *gissard blockage* caused by grit over eating, or by an object ingested and stuck there (like a paper clip), or by a soft food or matter - like bread - that remained there. Gissard blockage also is accompaniated by crop blockage caused by candida.

So candida will appear in any situation that causes the crop to not pass the food into body at normal speed. 




You'll have to address two, three or possibly four problems:

*.1*
- to *treat the candida from crop*. Treating crop candida first is necessary because it doesn't let medicines and food pass into gissard.


*2.*
- to *treat a possible gissard blockage* in the same time and for the same reason: if present, such condition will block the passage of medicines and food into organism, if this condition exist. Neck stretching which you described may be a symptom of gissard blockage, also the "pinguin position", bird staying vertical, in order to aleviate some pains he feels in abdomen.



*3.* - to treat a possible *bacterial infection* that follows the immunodepression caused by other diseases, or follows toxicity caused by over medication or other stress factors. Bacteria, often salmonella, take advantage of the weakening caused by other conditions and invade the affected organs (if is the bowel, it causes a characteristic llively-green or forest-green diarrhea) and then passes into blood and invade the entire organism - condition called sepsis - which soon leads to death. Sudden death can happen very fast, in 24 hours from first symptoms. The diziness you describe at your bird can be caused by this, as well as the incoordination of movements similar to pmv neurological symptoms.


*4. *
- When crop has started to function normally and after removing the bacteria, is time to start *treating the enteritis*, if this condition is present. Salmonella usually inhibates the pathogen that initially caused the enteritis and when the bacterium is removed, that initial pathogen returns in force. This pathogen is usually coccidia (a single-celled microorganism), trichomonas (also a single-celled microorganism, popularly called canker) or e.coli. Other more rarely met pathogens are streptococcus (bacterium), staphilococcus (bacterium), malaria (single-celled microorganism), hexamita (single-celled microorganism). It can be a combination of two, very freqeuent being a combination of canker and coccidia.




Now about the *treatments*:




- For crop candida, from my experience, nystatin has no efficiency. If you meet the same situation, you can try this method of mine, which is not found in any guide, vet website, book etc but I found to work excellently in most of the perhaps around 100 situations of obvious crop candidosis: you have to give *soured water*, as candida does like sweet things (is what the yeast eats) so sour things will inhibit it, in fact will clear it rapidly, if it hasn't managed to grow very much. 

When I started to rescue pigeons in 2012, in the first two years most of the severe cases (over 50 birds) were dying and in almost all cases (~95%) the direct cause of death was candida. The blockage of the crop caused by candida was preventing food and water to be absorbed in organism, then the water acumulated in crop was accidentally coming into mouth, enter the respiratory tract and suffocate the bird. Then, in 2015, I started to use soured water and since then no bird died of that type of situation any more.

This is how you have to prepare and give: the only agent for souring that I found efficient is acv, apple cider vinegar. It is bought from naturist shops and pigeon breeders put small amount in the drinking water (one spoon to a galloon) but in candida infections, there is need for a much higher concentration. The product must not contain anything else but raw vinegar, no sugar, honey etc. The resulted water must be as sour as possible, lowest concentrations have no effect. But if is too sour, the ingestion will be stressful for birds and will cause more harm than good. To establish how sour to be, taste it yourself and make the concentration below the point is giving you the sensation of burnt, even if this sensation is low. The amount of soured water given to an administration must be small, around 6 ml, to prevent the water accumulating in crop and accidentally coming into mouth. Give this 3-4 times / day untill you gonna see improvement (which happens after 2-3 administrations if the disease is not very advanced), then mantain for few days more a sour environment in crop by giving soured water 2-3 times / day, to prevent candida from relapsing. Remove other sources of water and give the sour water only when the one from previous administration (or the liquid food) was absorbed into organism.

To make the bird drink this water, as he won't do on own initiative (the birds don't like the sourness), you have to use the crop feeding method, which you apparently know. There are some more hints about crop feeding technique, like the fact that you need a longer tube than the ones usually recommended. To learn these, watch this video made by me:
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtHa5JDDhfY*

If you're going to give liquid food, sour this food to the same point as the water. Also, in futu7re, when given antibiotics, especially strong antibiotics, always give this treatment agsainst candida during 1-2 after antibiotic treatment.

You can try this if you fail to see effects with nystatin but I would recommend to start giving this soured water treatment from beginning, as candida grows very fast and you don't have time. You can give both soured water and nystatin at the same time.





Now, if candida managed to pass from crop into tissues, as it may be indicated by the white film on tongue - *please post photos with the open mouth* - this is serious, both because it means the growth in crop is big and any treatment may fail and because the candida in tissues needs a systemic antifungal treatment and systemic antifungal drugs are very toxic. Nystatin is designed only for topic treatment, for the mucosa of cavities. It isn't absorbed in organism, it doesn't enter blood. Same for the sour water, has no effect on candida in tissues. The systemic antifungals, the antifungal drugs that enter the blood and are used for such situations are very toxic snd most of them should be avoided, as cause more harm than good. 

The less toxic and usually used is *fluconazole*, which you buy from human drugstore. The recommended dose is 1-2 mg / day but I found that at adult pigeons, only a bigger dose, like 3 mg, may have enough strenght. The drug comes in capsules of 25, 50, 100 or 500 mg. Do this:

- Buy the 25 mg capsule (ask the : pharmacist to give you a single capsule, as is not not very cheap). 
- Empty the content on a clean piece of paper and separate the powder in two. Then separate one of the parts in another two and then again, resulting an amount of ~3 mg.
- Take the 3 mg and mingle it with a small piece of moistured bread and put it in bird's mouth, pressing it with finger to go down the throat. Take care all the drug gets into bird, no bread crumbs fall away. You can also mix the fluconazole with the soured water you give but take care that the drug is insoluble, much of it may settle down in corners of the syringe and not reach the bird's digestive system.




For possible blocked gissard, I found in at least one case, that the treatment with *paraffin oil* (called also liquid paraffin) is really efficient. You buy it from human drugstore, is cheap. When some birds of mine got sick with blocked gissard following bread eating, 4 died and then I read *this article*, gave paraffin oil and saved the fifth sick bird. 

The treatment for blocked gissard should be given in the same time with the one for candida.




For possible general bacterial infection, oral antibiotics may not be strong and fast enough (they have to travel all the digestive tract). I successfully used and using *injectable antibiotic based on lincomycin - spectinomycin* (sold under various brand names), saving tens of birds that were emaciated, feverish, with green diarrhea or displaying neurological symptoms of movement incoordination (similar to pmv). Your bird may suffer from this as well, from your description. Linco - spectino treatment last three days and no later than the second day, bird starts to eat and to display generally good condition. Using oral antibiotics require more time and that reduce the chances of recovery.



For treating the enteritis, if this condition is present, you have to wait the elimination of bacterial infection (if bacteria are present) that will allow the pathogen that caused the enteritis to manifest again (because the bacterium inhibates it). As I said, enteritis is caused usually by coccidia, or canker, or e. coli or a combination between two (like canker and coccidia or coccidia and hexamita). The dark color of the feces may indicate is not canker or e.coli, both of which make the feces lighter but I may be wrong. For coccidia, you should give a 5 days treatment with amprolium (use a product containing just amprolium, not a combination with a drug for canker, mas is Roni Plus you used). Treatment may not clear coccidia from the first session, you make a week pause and give it again.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

AndreiS thank you, thank you and million times thank you!!! Thank you all. 

Now to answer some questions and to give an update.

First I have stopped traveling with the bird about 9 days ago as I visited every vet in the city. He spends the whole day in my room and usually on my lap, during the night he sleeps on bottles of warm water on top of which I put a dog training pad and him. I change the water in the bottles several times trough the night so he is nice and toasty. During the day, if the weather is good like today, and with a lot of Sun, I take him out on the balcony where he sleeps on my chest and sunbathes. He gets very warm like this. If it is too cold in the room I put the heating on and the heater is turned in his direction while he is on the head of the chair with a fat head rest. He can move towards or away from the heat and can lay on the head rest and sleep. So I think he is puffed up mainly because he feels very bad.

As for the food, he gets enough food but he poops every 5 min or even less time in between if he had just drank water. So depending on the time of the day poop can be quite big or just as small pieces, or just flecks in water. As from today he has a lot of trouble picking the seeds and I am now almost sure it is PMV as he started "stargazing" and "picking seeds" with the side of his head. So I do 2 things, when he goes to food I look at which seeds he takes and then get a lot of that seeds and hand feed him. I can see now he prefers small corn, hemp, those little black seeds you can find in canary food, and some bean like green and brown seeds. Anyway all he likes I hand pick and give it to him, and in addition I give him peas - defrosted and warmed.

From medication I give him enrofloxacin, it says 0.1 ml per kg, so I take 0.1 ml and put it in a small glass jar I have marked thirds on. When he drinks almost 1/3 of this solution (for 300g pigeon) I remove the rest. He drinks water and vitamins, I stopped with electrolytes as here I can get them only with glucose. When I saw candida I stopped with anything that has glucose before it resolves. I give him Nystatin but in tablet form (1/5 of the tablet 500.000 IU) and probiotics - which are in powder form and I give them while feeding peas (I drop the pea in the powder and give it like that). There is no antifungals for birds nor Nystatin in suspension in the whole city, we have shortage of meds in Podgorica which is lasting for quite a while so it is hard to get anything now.

Now an update on him. The white film is no longer in the mouth, anywhere and as far as I can see down. He is emptying the crop because in the evening it is nice and firm, full of seeds which I can feel, and in the morning it is empty, nothing in. After just 3 tablets for candida he just became so much better. He acted almost like a normal pigeon today, well still puffed during periods of the day but he went down to eat very often. He walked around the balcony, walked around the floor. Looks more lively than yesterday. The poop was promising this morning, it started to firm up just a bit, looked almost like a gel (maybe because of Nystatin) but just now it is again full of water. But the good thing is that he does not drink that much nor does he poop that often like previous 2 days.

The other pigeon, that was sick first, looks completely recovered and poop is firm and normal. She eats great, drinks water just few times a day, flies, looks great. She even get the weight back.

He on the other hand is going deeper in the disease, looking a bit better but the neurological signs are worse and worse. Head shaking, flying off course, slipping off things, sometimes walks in circle 2 times, looks up a lot, when he manages to get the seeds head flies back and the seed drops out. The pigeon that was sick first is a true feral and it might be that she gots stronger natural immunity. The pigeon that is still sick is either someones lost pigeon or a mix between a feral and a pigeon breed we have here "srpski visokoletac". I think he is pure breed "srpski visokoletac" in which case it explains why he is doing so much worse... Also just a month ago he was suffering from big wounds as he was hit by a car and lost most of his skin and some muscle from the back. He just recovered, had air sac infection right after that, recovered from that and now this... So he was trough a lot.

I will now show you pictures I made today of both of them.

This is the pigeon that is good now. She is molting so the feathers are not that great, but you can see she got the weight back and looks very active. She just ate.

http://workupload.com/file/XyJqVMbx

And this is the poor baby. On his chair, actually he looks much more puffed that this and when he falls a sleep he lowers his head down to his feet. His eyes were very orange now they are yellow. He just looks like he is fading away. He is still very young ans you can see.

http://workupload.com/file/9zsag2se


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

It might be good to describe his poop from today. So it was bigger pieces of poop that were a bit mushy, they had a normal form, but if you touch it it would smear. The watery part was smaller, but was as the same color as the poop, green. but normal, olive green, and the urates were nice and white. The whole thing was more solid, almost like gel starting to firm up as a mass that keeps it form on a dog training pad in stead of just being absorbed right away. Just now it is not that good, it is again water with pieces of poop inside. It might be that he needs to digest the food to have something in his poop again.

he is also preening more lively. Yesterday he was chewing off some feathers, he damaged 2 of them. Today he is preening normally and he did not damage anything.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

the sick bird/s should be taken to the veterinarian . This is the most confusing over use of prescription medications I have ever seen. Would a person do this with a human child I would think not. But it is only pigeons so a dr is too expensive? Even a non avian vet would be better at this point.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

If you read all the port you will see that in Podgorica, Montenegro there is not a single avian vet. Actually there is not a single avian vet in the whole country. Vets here don't have medication, knowledge or any tolls to help birds. The medication I get is when they get some with the food or other medication as addition. I have went to each vet in my city and none of them could help. 

I did not use all of the medication of both birds, if one bird did not show improvement I did not gave that medication to the other. It is a hit and miss strategy because I am dealing with something serious and can not find help anywhere in my country. For me, time, money doesn't mean anything and all I want for these birds is to live. If there is any way for me to help them I would and I would try it. I am already skipping work to be here 24/7 for these birds. I feel so guilty, but at least one is OK and well and off any meds for about 7 days. The baby I am trying to save and I envy you people that can just go, pay and have your solution. for me is learning, frustration, forums and nights upon night of reading and trying to figure this out.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

SilverFeral, sorry you are having such a hard time. Your birds are lovely. Thank you for trying to help them. It is really hard when there are no avian vets.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

The baby is doing great if we don't count in the watery droppings and the neurological signs. He spent most of the day eating, and after I hand fed him and the crop was full he was very active and started to flap his wings for exercise. Loves to walk around and peck, and spent some time yesterday sunbathing when he finally got in to the sunbathe pose.

But I have another question - I noticed that one of his flight feathers was probably damaged while it was growing becoming a blood feather. The outer layer dropped revealing a thin, dark red and dried wire like remain of the feather. It goes right down to the skin. It is not too brittle. Should I leave this or should I try to pluck it out. I tried to move it a bit but it is firmly in the skin.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am not an expert but would not try to remove it. Eventually the bird will remove or it will be replaced by molting. If damaged permanently would leave it alone. Our beloved Phoebe had a broken wing and feather damage from flying into a fan twice and had two feathers that always grew in funny. The avian vet said to leave them alone and every time she molted, they grew in weird again but didn't seem to bother her. Someone else more expert though might have a suggestion based on your bird however. Glad to hear he is doing better.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Is it a feather, or no feathering on it?


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

I might give you a little update. He pulled the feather himself the same day, that and another one that was damaged. As he was molting before the virus he stopped and just recently continued. The feathers that were caught mid forming during the molt were all deformed and he ended up pulling about a dozen of feathers that all had deformed ends (that go in the skin). Now feathers are growing good and he is just preening normally. New feathers were a bit dry, but I see the ones that are emerging recently are normal.

We are still fighting the virus, he is in week 4 from the first symptoms. I give him only electrolytes, vitamins, minerals, hand feed him pigeon high energy mix and defrosted peas. He is very active but still has a very watery droppings. Feces is OK but there is a lot of water. he was decreasing the water consumption but all of a sudden yesterday he went back to the start drinking a lot of water and making a flood with his poop. Neurological signs are much worse. Ifhe is not resting he is running in circles and looking up, just endles circling, then a little bit of running in a direction and then circles, sometimes he even fals to the sides because he is going very fast. i don't know how long do symptoms these severe last but I hope he will start to improove soon. It is very hard to watch him like this.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I have one in my loft that's done the circling thing for well over ten years now. He manages to eat and drink just fine, but has always seemed a bit on the thin side to me. However... he gets his little epileptic fits and does those really fast circles and sometimes a really fast straight-ish walk and then just gets over it. He probably does this many times an hour. I keep expecting him to pass away over a harshly cold winter due to his thinness but he doesn't seem any different today than he did over ten years ago--hasn't aged a bit from all outward appearances.

I've no idea what disease pathogen is responsible, by the way.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One other thing... does that sick baby have a natural upward ruffle of his or her feathers near the back of his head (it would be called a "head crest")? There are domestic breeds that have that--but it's not something that you see in feral pigeons. I'm no expert on pigeon breeds but Archangels are like that:










Pidgey


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

The circling started within I think second week of paramixo and I never seen this behavior before. It is now almost constant and it is linked with the disease. If he can manage to eat and dirink bz itself and not circle all the time I would be happy and keep him as a pet, as long as he is not suffering. as for the crest yes he does have it. There is a picture of him in one of mine previous posts, it is the pigeon that is mostly black. here we have a local breed of pigeon called srpski visokoletac. I think he is either pure breed or mix between that and a feral. I have a true feral pigeon that was also rescued and hand fed and she got trough the disease more or less in 3 weeks and didn't have a single neurological symptom. This poor baby is in his 4th week and doing worse and worse...


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

It sounds like PMV and it might be the virus type that does not require antibiotics and you are going to have to continue to support feeding and giving it liquids like you are doing. Really hoping for the best for you...There are very different areas that the virus and the bacteria kind of PMV affects and one is the urinary track and they can put out what looks or seems like "buckets of water"..Pigeon needs time and support feeding. Since you tried all kinds of medicines I would take him off all of them at this time. Best wishes for you and your pigeon .


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

I know the posts are long and complicated but the pigeon that is still sick has been on least amount of antibiotics. I actually cut the antibiotics in the middle of week 2 when I saw that the first "stargazing" appeared and walking in circles. He has been on supportive care from then and I will continue to do so. I know recovery is long and some things can stay for life. I don't mind the watery poop, he can poop all he want wherever he wants  just as long as he is happy. I actually let him sleep on the side of my bed and we have this routine with setting the dog training pads and bottles of warm water, this way as soon as he starts walking in circles I know he is thirsty so I give him his water jar to drink and then he becomes calm and sleeps again. We do this whole night so he is well hydrated and makes his little flood there  The only thing that makes me sad is when he tries to eat and just has this little fit and spits the seeds out  I wish he could pick the best seeds as he is used to... he loves to eat he has always been a little chubby pigeon.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Btw Pidgey, the picture of the pigeon you sent. That is my dream pigeon! I work with one dream to someday have enough money to have my own pigeon loft and have that breed of pigeon. I am completely in love with them! Here we call them ilirski golub or dalmatinske gimple: http://fenix-magazin.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/DSC_0009-1-660x330.jpg


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

It sounds like you are doing all you can and a good job as well. Sure hope he gets well for I can tell you are very attached to him...They all have their way of attaching us to them..Wish you the very best and just do what you are doing in the way of support feeding and drinking...Thanks for helping this pigeon for some people could not be bothered--Thanks...


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Is he mantaining his weight or he is losing weight? If he is losing weight, you may not feed him enough or the diarrhea may be caused by an enteritis, not by pmv and you have to take measures.

The neurological symptoms can be caused by some discomfort. I see this at some pigeons I have, with post-pmv neurological sdymptoms. When they sre not attacked by others they don't displsay torticollis, which manifests as a soert of reaction to a hostile environment.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

Just to give an update and to pose a question.

So the pigeon is doing better. neurological signs are slowly going away. She (I just found out its a she not he) still has occasional walking in circles but the head everything else is almost normal. She also started to eat on her own, she can now pick up seeds without any fits and eat them. There might be a twitch or two, but it is fine. I hand feed her as even thou she can eat by herself it is not easy for her, she drops some seeds etc. She gained weight  She is a nice round pigeon  She tries to fly a bit off the floor etc. So she is today officially entering week 6 of the disease and even thou neurological signs are rapidly going away excessive drinking and water in poop is still here, almost same as the day one. So the poop and urates are nicely formed and visible, urates even as nice strings or little white parts along the nice feces. But there is a LOT of water and I am talking sometimes a inch long puddle on a hard floor or a half of a paper towel completely soaked and dripping with each poop. She has a little less poops than before and sometimes some poops that are completely dissolved in water, but with the rate she is defecating i think that is normal. 

Now the question. She is now completely rejecting electrolytes. When I prepare a electrolyte solution she will start drinking and then stop immediately and spit out the water. She will then spend most of the day like this, drinking just 1/5 of her normal water intake but at the same time she will poop a lot of water. This will lead her to become very irritated and even start going in to circles. The moment I give her plain water she will start drinking like crazy. This has lead me to stop giving her electrolytes (I tried one mix just for pigeons, hemolyte, she doesn't want to touch it!). Now I am a bit concerned that she looses more that she can get via water. But again any time I try with electrolytes its the same. I even tried diluting the electrolyte solution so that she can't taste them as she is drinking a lot anyway. This helps sometimes but usually I have to dilute 3 times before she will drink like nothing is happening. If I just use normal water, even different brands of bottled water she will not react, it is like she just reject electrolytes for some reason. Btw when I give her the electrolytes and she gets nervous because she can't drink she even goes to pooping even more water as she is restless and walks around.... What do you think should I forget the electrolytes or I have to give them as long as she had watery poop?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The wattery poop may be caused by kidney failure, folowing over medication (paramixo also causes kidney problems, which explain the wattery poop).


The wattery poop may also be caused by a bacteria or coccidiosis. There are bacteria, like staphyloccocus and staphyloccocus, that don't respond to common general antibiotics. Or e. coli that also is resistent to most antibiotics. And for cocci, amprolium may be too weak. I recently finished a 6 day amprolium course on a group of pigeons. During treatment, coccidia was inhibited but right in the day I stopped the treatment, it returned in force as nothing has happened to them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What if you give her plain water, but cut down a bit on her water intake? Offer it to her several times daily, but don't leave it with her.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

În adition, she may have a crop blockage, which add to the volume the water they drink, in the hope of flushing away the blockage.Does her crop empty over night?


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Dear friend, I think I am the most heartbroken person today... first no there is no blockage to the crop, the crop empties completely each morning (I check) and she eats great. I managed to get her used to during 50:50 of plain water with electrolyte solution. Some days I give her this just half of the day and then water with vitamins. We finally managed to get back on track and she started to practice flying and even flying short distances...

This morning we went out to sunbathe a bit and she flew off my hand. My idiotic mistake, all my mistake! She flew down in from of the building and I run down but the cat got her! I manage to scare off the cat. She has some small injuries to her side and neck, where the cat pick her up. I rinsed the wound with water, rivanole solution and water and went straight to the vet. the vet flushed the wounds again with several solutions, not sure which, I was just crying in shock. vet gave her enrofloxacin and told me to give more in stead of 0.03 ml 0.05 ml. I called another vet and he also told me to give orni tabs (doxy and spiramicin for streptocoocus). this pigeon was hit by a car, had respiratory infection, had paramyxo (today was last day of 6 weeks) and now this. The picture of her flying down helplessly watching me and the cat holding her. Why God why????? The vet told me she has small chances to survive because of infection. He told me to give her the medication for at least 7 days. i spent this morning reading about cat bits and none of the stories had happy ending. It is all my fault!!!!!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Please don't give up hope. Pigeons are tough. Our wonderful Phoebe survived eight years after a broken wing and almost losing her head and three surgeries for internal,problems. Am sorry to hear that your bird was attacked but hopefully with antibiotics and care will heal. Am sending good wishes your way. Please take good care of both of you.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

I will never give hope! She recovered from the attack quickly - meaning she started to eat, drink, exercise her wings and walk around. She also spent most of the day sleeping on my chest and she had a really nice naps so that helped. I am interested how long until you know your are our of the woods? I saw that they say that pigeons attacked by cat normally will develop symptoms in 48h and die in 4 days, if the sepsis occurs. So does this mean that if she survives the first 4 days she will be OK? Or does it take longer? 

Thank you for any answer or advice.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Cat bites infects with bacteria and other germs and bacteria can be stopped if proper antibiotics are given in time. But enrofloxacin is not the best solution, amoxicillin is usually recommended to p[revent infections caused by wounds. Doxycycline is even a wore option.

Nevertheless, as the infection caused by cat bites are more dangerous, I would rely on injectable antibiotics, namely something based on lincomycin - spectinomycin. If given in time, this drug can stop bacterial infection almost in any situation, has close to zero resistance in most bacteria species. If not available, injectable enrofloxacin would be the next best thing. But as is a strong antibiotic, almpost surely will cause crop candida and you have to tackle this as well with the method of well soured water I recommended.


Does your bird still pass aqueous droppings? I have similar problems withy my pigeons and few days ago I took one of them at Romvac headquarters (the main veterinary drug manufacturing company in Romania) and had the bird's dropping examined at microscope by Dr. Cătălin Tudoran himself (whose online recommendations I often quoted on this forum) and it appeared to be a serious coccidiosis infection, possibly complicated with wet canker and bacterial infections as well (for the latter two test has not been performed). 

Bird drinking excessive amounts water is caused either by PMV or coccidiosis, according to Chevita table of symptoms while drinking just increased amounts of water may indicate e. coli, hexamitiasis or stress, according to same table. 

Also, extracting water from the crop of a pigeon with this problem I found candida, which coresponds with my suspicion that enteritis almost always is accompanied by crop candida, because the food circulates slower, allowing candida to develop. 

If you are going to treat for coccidiosis, whicvh I would recommend, use a sulphonamide - based drug, because the drug you used against coccidia was based on amprolium, which is not strong enough in bad infections with coccidia. And asnother recommendation: don't start the treatment against coccidia or other oral treatment until you haven't given at least once acv-soured water, as if there actually is a slow crop situation, the drug will be filtered and not hit the protozoa (or other germ) with all its force, thus having no effect.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

AndreiS, THANK YOU! 

In Montenegro there was no optin for injectable antoibiotic for birds. The vet had just one I think caled Avisan or similar and he said that better choice is enrofloxacine. So vets don't know much and they don't have a lot. All I can find here is usually in tablet form, for pigeons, very low supply and importned together with pigeon seed mix. So I just purchase all I can and make reserves to last me trough years.

For cocci I just have ronidazole. That is all. I treated this pigeon with ronidazole during PMV, when I was not sure was it PMV. I also found info that PMV can cause water in droppings for a long time, and some pigeons will always have this problem - poop will always stay a bit on the watery side. 

As for candida I think you might be on to something, just yesterday evening (he got first antibiotics that day) I noticed a faint smell from the crop, not bad smell, but it is similar to a smell if you have mold on a wall somewhere and then you wipe it off. The smell fungus makes. hard to describe, I know doxy can be hard on digestion so I was thinking it might be just seeds sitting for a bit longer in the crop. I will start with Nystatine right away. Unfortunately this is all I have, no any antifungal for birds in my country. All I have is Nystatine tablets for humans that I cut in to appropriate dose and give twice a day 

Vets that don't know a lot, no medication... this is my biggest problem.

PS all the medication you described in your first post, I'm afraid that is SF for Montenegro  I am talking about a country in which people wait for 3 months to get in to radiation therapy for cancer


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If you're interested for further situations, I can send you by post a bottle with lincomycin-spectinomycin. Price here is around 40 Lei, equivalent ~10$. Is 100 ml that equates some 700 pigeon doses (0.15 ml). You also can buy online from Serbia:
http://www.farmanima.rs/lek/antibiotici/linco-spectin-inj/707



Ronidazole is for flagelate protozoa, trichomonas (canker) and hexamita. But is a weak drug, if you are going to treat for canker, better use metronidazole, from human drugstore. 
For coccidia there are drugs having as active substance sulphaquinoxaline or other sulpha drug, or toltrazuril, or amprolium. All these are coccidiostatics, meaning they don't kill the germ but stop it from growing, thus allowing bird's organism to develop immunity.


PMV sometimes affect the kidneys, thus the wattery droppings. And the effect on kidney may last for months, but I'm not sure in that form with drinking excessive amounts of water. I only once had a pigeon with PMV that was drinking excessively but this thirst lasted just around two weeks, then stopped. Another one had soft droppings for months, but not aqueous. This is what made me think your pigeon may have coccidiosis. I hope I'm wrong, but maybe you should investigate more this possibility. Some coccidia strains don't kill, the bird may be sick for long periods.


If you felt any smell coming from mouth, than pretty sure is because of food fermenting there. Is not the fungus smelling, fungi has no smell. As you gave a lot of antibiotics to the pigeon, including enro and doxy that are known that almost invariably cause candida, then it would be a wonder if the pigeon does NOT have candida by now.

To clear crop candida, from my experience nystatin doesn't work. You should give water well soured with acv, as sour as almost to cause feeling of "burn" in throat when you drink it. This is a treatment method I "discovered" by myself (though later I found others use it as well). Because candida likes sweet things, as it feeds on sugars, what is sour and bitter inhibates it and actually after 2-3 administrations, the crop is returning to normal functioning (if there is not an enteritis). You give this soured water with the crop feeding method, 5-6 ml 2-3 times / day, during and 2-3 days after the treatment with antibiotics, as even if candida is repelled in first or second day, it can return in force if the treatment is not prolonged. This treatment is not toxic and can be given any time, in combination with medicines or not. but if candida managed to get too far, than may be hard to stop, you have to give morew times / day, even from hour to hour in some very bad situations. Candida grow very fast if find proper conditions.

The systemic antifungals like fluconazole or itraconazole are very toxic and should be given (only fluconazole, itra causes more damage than healing) only if candida is in respiratory system or in tissues, like when it appears as white plaques in mouth, as soured water (as well as nystatin) is a topic treatment, affects only the mucosa of crop, doesn't go further in blood system.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ronidazole is for canker, not cocci.
Canker can also have a smell to it.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello, so can you please tell me what medication is good? Please use basic components, for example lets say you want to explain byatril you call it enrofloxacin, so I can try to find this medication maybe even for humans and then make appropriate dosage. I also may be able to find the medication somewhere for birds.

Btw poop part is normal, pigeon drinks a lot and then she has excess urine. There is no loose stool, eats good is active etc. Can that also be cocci. What I understand pigeons with cocci act sick and they don't eat due to inflammation of the intestine. For me this looks more like kidney, nice formed poop, urates white and visible but then a LOT of water with that, clear water. 

Thank you.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Can you post a photo with the actual aspect of droppings? What is the color of feces? Does it varies as well? If a bird is healthy, even if he passes aqueous droppings, the color of feces remain the same dar kai.Cocci doesn't make the bird stop eating immediately or become letargic, except if in advanced stage.` Is recognized from green droppings whic also can get bloody at times or ochre yellow if cocci is combined with canker, as happens at pigeons in my area.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Post pictures.
BTW, Nystatin does work for crop candida. If it hasn'[t worked for others, could be because it wasn't used correctly or for a long enough amount of time.
If your bird is drinking a lot, then the droppings would have more water. 
Canker also has a smell, and makes the bird drink a lot. Would be water around the droppings.
Metronidazole is good for canker. Squeaker-30 mg once daily for 7 to 10 days. Adult pigeon- 50 mg. once daily for 7 to 10 days.

Dark green droppings are usually starvation droppings because the bird is not eating enough.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

This post started with me over medicating pigeons :/ I don't want to make the same mistake again. When PMV started I treated this pigeon with Rony plus tab (trichomoniasis, hexamitiasis and coccidiosis), he also got Orni tab from pantex (I think 4 days) and I dewormed her. All different suggestions etc. The she never left the house and the balcony after that and the rooms are cleaned every day and she sleeps on dog training pads I change several times a day. She is now almost always alone as other pigeon is mostly out. She has her own drinking and feeding bowls. So I rule out any infection in the meantime so I must rule out tricho and cocci. The only thing left is candida (she is now on Nystatine) and kidney damage from PMV. And I believe this is the kidney damage. 

I waited for the nastiest poop of the day and I took the photo. She has this poop after some time of taking Nystatine, so urine becomes clouded, and when she hasn't eaten for a while. This is how the nastiest poop looks WATCH OUT the picture is not for everybody 

http://workupload.com/file/UdwvLIJ3

So this is the amount of water she passes out with the poop. Usually there is more poop but this is from this morning and she didn't ate. As for the amount of poop during the day I would say she passes quite a bit. 

THE USUAL POOP - olive green, as a solid and not broken "spaghetti" or a lot of smaller pieces but nicely formed in a poop of clear water and with a white bits of urates. Once she makes this nice poop on the floor I will past a picture. She is sleeping now on her blanket and she made poops there so it is not visible.

As update today is day 4 from cat attack. She is alive. I don't like that she is a bit sleepy today  the tormenting wait continues...


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

OK warning another poop picture.

She just made 2 poops and the last one was more of what her "normal" poop looks like. There is now some yellow in the urine. problem is that tablet has this glossy yellow coating and she will poop the color out for some time.

Poop:
http://workupload.com/file/8SErYF6F

Btw Nystatin tablets I use look like this (this is not the actual product but tablets look like it): http://farmacia-apifarm.ro/uploads/1/0/7/1/10712532/6119827_orig.jpg?100

we have a shortage of it unfortunately and this is all I could purchase.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Please believe me, the pigeon has coccidiosis. I have a coccidosis epydemy right now and they pass identic droppings, or similar, like these ones, passed few minutes back:




















I know for sure is coccidosis because it appeared like that at lab test at drug factory.




Or if you don't blieve me, check this photo from Chevita website:









http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/digestivetract-coccidiosis.php




You haven't ruled out anything, the drugs you gave were based on ronidazole and amprolium, which are not strong enough either for canker or cocci. For cocci, ask your vet for a tablet form (not hydrosoluble powder) sulpha-drug for this protozoa (most sulpha-drugs are destined for bacteria and may not work on cocci).


Also, the photo shows some whitish, rice water - like liquid, which according to Chevita table of symptoms, indicates hexamitiasis, which is treated with metronidazole.


As a general idea, there are drugs that just don't work because the bacteria, protozoa, fungus has developed resistance since the drugs have been introduced. This resistance can be regional, that is, in a city or country a drug won't work but in another city or country will work, because in the latter the germ has not yet developed resistance.


Also,what one can read on specialised veterinary websites or in printed publications from authoritative sources is not always free of mistake. There are many scientifical errors even in the acadaemic world, false theories perpetuated as not everything is periodically checked for consistency.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Looks very similar, even identical with the poops of my pigeons that have coccidiosis right now. The first photo looks like the poop that was examined at drugstore lab a week ago and identified to have at least cocci. 

The difference in your photo is that the liquid around the feces is rice-water like (like a white suspension), which on Chevita table of symptoms is associated with hexamita, a flagelate treated with the same drugs as canker (metronidazole).

Candida is pretty sure present, as is quite improbable it wont appear in a slow crop, slow crop indicated by the fermented food (signalised by the smell you felt). Even if, theoretically, nystatin will affect the candida, the fungus will relapse soon if the enteritis is not solved. *You have to treat at the same time the enteritis and the crop candida*, as they support each other in a vicious circle: enteritis doesn't let the food leave the crop and candida doesn't let the drug pass from crop into organism.


And giving nystatin doesn't man you can't give the acv-soured water of my method. The acv puts no toxicity on liver, ity only may cause topical distress to bird. Nystatin too is not well absorbed into blood system, is a topical drug, though it has some toxicity.


So I would say to start treatment with a sulpha drug for cocci and metronidazole for hexamita, the first in the morning and the second in the evening, at 12 hours distance, plus the treatment for candida at the same time (be it nystatin or soured water). Sulpha drugs have not to be given for more than 2-3 days, then 3 days pause and again, if the problem was not solved. Metronidazole should be given at least 7 days, 40 mg for a smaller adult pigeon having 250 gr. 

Don't forget to support the treatment with B vitamins and a hepatoprotective supplement, if possible. You can put it in the soured water.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The aspect of droppings of your pigeon is identical with the aspect of droppings of my sick pigeons, like this one passed in his morning:











It surely is an infectious disease or combination of diseases as now has spread to most of the group (around 15 individuals). At lab test, one of pigeons has the droppings (looking exactly like in your picture) examined at microscope and found to have coccidiosishose droppings exactly like in your photo was identified with coccidiosis. I'm pretty sure my pigeons have also wet canker but this type of droppings is most likely caused in first stance by coccidia.

The drugs you used for coccidia were based on amprolium which is too weak for advanced coccidiosis infestation. I recommend you to start a treatment with a sulpha drug desisgned for coccidiosis, like sulphaquinoxaline.

And as candida may reduce the amount of drug absorbed in organism, making it inefficient, I would say to treat in the same time for candida, using the method with soured water, which I guarantee you that it works.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Day 6 from the cat attack. She is eating but prefers very tiny seeds probably due to big hit to the crop. I feed her defrosted peas and he regurgitated just one this morning, but before that it was OK. This happen just seconds after I gave her the antibiotic so I think I must have pressed some painful spot on the crop. She looks normal. Poop is mostly formed but watery. But I think she will be OK, she would got very sick by now. Right?

Vet said to give antibiotic just one more time tomorrow and stop. What do you think?

Picture of her just now:

http://postimg.org/image/5jxeiq44x/


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't remember what you are giving for an antibiotic. Normally 10 days though.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

SilverFeral said:


> Picture of her just now:
> 
> http://postimg.org/image/5jxeiq44x/


I reuploaded the photo from your link:













Poor she, looks thinner than in previous photo. Is her breast bone sharp? Please start the anti-cocci treatment or the condition will worsen beyond the point recovery will be possible. 


As six days have passed since cat attack, the danger of bacterial infection is gone so you should stop antibiotic treatment. Focus on the cocci and in equal measure on candida.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She actually looks pretty good... 

(possible pasteurellosis from a cat attack, Jay3)

Pidgey


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Actually she has a bit strange body form, her neck is very long. When she tucks that big neck back in she is round as a big tomato  Her breast bone is not sharp, it is quite nicely tucked in meat and some palpable fat on the belly. She got very thin during PMV and the breast bone was quite sharp but now she bounced right back. 

I don't want to rule out anything lightly but I also don't want to start with a lot of medication. This watery poop started with PMV, she got it before any neurological symptoms. It lasts for almost 8 weeks now. If it was cocci would she got very bad now, is she had 8 weeks of cocci? I just want to be cautious. She had to get antibiotics again now because of the cat attack. And now I have to give them again and for long time. I am afraid if it is really her kidneys I might damage them without repair and kill the bird. I would like to give her some spacing between the antibiotics and time for her body to detox.

She just, for the first time in almost 5 weeks, started to fly. She managed to fly from the floor to the top of a computer chair and those have high back rests. She was quite spot on on landing. She is doing better and better each day.

It might be good idea to give her 2 more weeks after these antibiotics and then start with some sulfa medication if I manage to find some for birds... Or are there any for humans I can use? for this I am open for your advice of course.

Btw again I am here because I want advice and I accept all opinions and really appreciate any help. Once again thank you all, and those pictures really look very very similar to my pigeon poop!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Personally, I don't get excited over really-wet droppings because I've got a blind pigeon in the house that sits on eggs once a month-ish for most of it and her poop bounces around quite a bit, depending. If she drinks water during the breaks from brooding, you bet she makes a wet mess on the floor. It can either be symptomatic or not and the history is everything when making that determination. It's REALLY easy to over-medicate and end up doing more damage than good. Given the likely viral history here, I wouldn't go lookin' that far for another answer.

My blind pigeon doesn't get a lot of sunlight and benefits GREATLY from occasional feedings of Kaytee--you can literally see the difference in a matter of days, so it's purely a nutrition thing. Probably a lack of vitamin D from the lack of being out in the sun. You CAN make the mistake of medicating when time, healing and sunlight or nutrition are the real answers. Just sayin'!

Pidgey


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

I will call now the vet to ask 1. can they see if there is cocci in droppings and 2. what medication they have.

I also was reading about it on line just now. This is a feral pigeon that came to me when she was over 25 days. I think she might have natural immunity and who knows.

I also made pictures when she stands normal, but the quality is bad becaus of my ancient phone.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

So, the only drug in MNE is natrium sulfadimidine but the problem is it is sometimes "smuggled" from Serbia to Montenegro and just now it is not available... Vets here don't do the test with the microscope.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

UPDATE! Sorry people I am working a lot so I got a bit confused with all the data. So I just checked medication I use tricho+cocci+hexamites thinking how is it possible that they give false facts that this medication treats all 3 things if it is just Ronidazole. It was my bad, this medication is:

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/pantex-roni-plus-pigeons-products.html

It contains both Ronidazole and Amprolium. this is now the only medication available and I gave it to this pigeon at the beginning of the PMV. All I can do now is wait a bit after the antibiotic and give this for 3 days as it states in the instructions. As for Amprolium I have read, on the internet to be honest, that it is as good as any sulfa antibiotic and even better as it does not have any side effects while sulfa one that can be used for cocci makes pigeon less vital.

So I can try this. My plan is, as today is last day of antibiotics, wait at least until 2.04. and give ACV water and vitamins and micro elements in the meantime, boots the immunity back up, and then treat with Roni plus and end with all further medications. This pigeon has eaten a lot of pills in this short 8 weeks...


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I tried a similar product containing amprolium and ronidazole and didn't work. this is because both drugs are given at half the dose.

Now I am finishing a treatment with full dose of amprolium and apparently worked (there are two more days). I also gave full dose metronidazole to the pigeons displaying wet canker signs (yellowish droppings and also this worked.

So you have to give full dose, not half dose as in that drug, Roni Plus.

I can send you by post an envelope containing amprolium powder (few grams) and few tablets of Coccistop (a sulpha drug). Please write me at the emasil address in signature if you're interested.


This type of problems your and mine pigeons have are caused by a combination of several diseases. Giving amoxicillin to some pigeons having aqueous droppings with small, pale feces, I noticed radical improvement - droppings turning dark and more solid - so I concluded they were suffering of some bacterial thing as well, quite probable e coli (as this bacterium has the tendency of producing light colored droppings).


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I can send you by post Amprolium and Coccistop tablets (a sulpha drug) so that next time you will be able to give a full dose anticoccidian (either amprolium or Coccistop) which you can combine with a full dose metronidazole. If you're interested, send me an email.

After an Amprolium treatment session you have to wait, I think, at least 1-2 weeks to give it again but you can immediately start a Coccistop treatment that may cure the problem in only 2-3 days. 


The fact that your pigeon eats only small seeds is caused by enteritis, not by the wound from cat. I remember some of my pigeons doing this before giving them Coccistop, which solved the problem.


I'm afraid ronidazole is not strong enough for canker, if your pigeon has this too, which is quite possible. It is possible that the aqueous character of the droppings to be caused by canker. I'm saying this because this morning I noticet no more pool of water - like droppings on the floor, except from a pigeon that I haven't given metro yesterday.




I am at the end of the 5 days amprolium treatment and discovered that some of the pigeons still suffer from cocci, that was only inhibated by canker, as after giving them metronidazole yesterday, I found some of them have passed dark green, cocci - caused droppings. This is because the coccidia have become resistant to amprolium, as they've become resistent to Coccistop. But at the first uses, these drugs clearly work, especially Coccistop.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Any updates?

I'm afraid that the treatment with Roni Plus will not lead to positive results. Both amproliujm and ronidazole are too weak for the diseases they're adressed. 

I would say to make a pause of few days / a week and then, if symptoms are still present, start a treatment consisting in sulpha-drug for cocci and metronidazole (from human drugstore) for canker. I can send you in a common post envelope some Coccistop tablets (sulpha-drug based).


The droppings of a healthy pigeon are solid, sort of spherical, with dark feces without any green shade and with white urates. All the twenty pigeons in one of my two groups have become affected by the coci - canker - candida problem and on the ground of observations of the way they responded to medication, I'm positive in believing sulpha-drug and metronidazole will bring your bird to to a normal functioning of digestive apparatus, with the condition of treating the candida as well, with the method of soured water.


And as amprolium from previous treatment has depleted the organism of B vitamins, give a complex with these vitamins. Also, during the treatment with sulpha-drug, as is hepatotoxic, give B vitamins as well.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm afraid that not doing this, will lead your bird to the point of stopping eating at all (iuf this hasn't already happened). The fact she was eating small seeds is the beginning of this process. I think both cocci and canker contribute to this at my birds and possible at yours too.


Also, for candida,, it helps to gently massage the lower part of crop before giving the soured water, as is there were candida forms.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I can send you by post Amprolium and Coccistop tablets (a sulpha drug) so that next time you will be able to give a full dose anticoccidian (either amprolium or Coccistop) which you can combine with a full dose metronidazole. If you're interested, send me an email.
> 
> After an Amprolium treatment session you have to wait, I think, at least 1-2 weeks to give it again but you can immediately start a Coccistop treatment that may cure the problem in only 2-3 days.
> 
> ...


Dark green can also be starvation droppings. One dose of Metro isn't going to make a big change that quickly.
Also one drug for one thing is much better than using the combination drugs. Not usually enough of each drug in them to do anything.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

AndreiS thank you, but I am afraid it will not be a good idea to send me any medication via post. I live in Montenegro (under Serbia, next to Bosnia and Hercegovina) so it is a place where the letter will probably be opened if it contains some substances. In addition all substances that are not approved by the government to be used locally will get me in trouble. I would love to have these medication but I am afraid to receive them like that. You would have to have some licence to send them, like be a vet and send prescription etc.

I also starter Roni plus tabs 3 days ago. Situation has only become worse:
- yellow diarrhea for some time after I give her the tablet
- poop with even more water
- she is puffed up and looks like in discomfort
- she still eats only small seed and now is miserable and sometimes lays in the food bowl and eats like that (looks like I give her poison not Roni plus tablet)
- her leg she broke before she came to me (old break that was healed) is hurting her a lot, this happened last time I gave her Roni plus and then I taught he just injured herself somewhere now I know it is because of this medication
- the water in the poop is a bit more clear, but still is all white sometimes and sometimes yellowish

All these symptoms start about an hour after I give her the medication and then as time goes she gets better and better and in the evening she is doing much better (poop still the same). it is truly as I am giving her poison and not medication. Tablets expiration date is in 2018 so meds are OK.

I now just want to stop with this and give her ACV water, vitamins, electrolytes, minerals, probiotics, good food and let her heal without just pumping in meds at random...


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

SilverFeral said:


> AndreiS thank you, but I am afraid it will not be a good idea to send me any medication via post. I live in Montenegro (under Serbia, next to Bosnia and Hercegovina) so it is a place where the letter will probably be opened if it contains some substances. In addition all substances that are not approved by the government to be used locally will get me in trouble. I would love to have these medication but I am afraid to receive them like that. You would have to have some licence to send them, like be a vet and send prescription etc.


If you think this can work, I can send them by parcel, mentioning what contains on the package and in the papers. I will also ask my vet if he can make that prescription. Just tell me (you can write me on email as here on forum my responses are often delayed).



> I also starter Roni plus tabs 3 days ago. Situation has only become worse


This is what I unfortunately expected.




> - yellow diarrhea for some time after I give her the tablet


Is from liver toxicity on an organism already weakened. The combination of both drugs, the amount of toxic substances was too much. Anytime something like this appear, it means the drug makes more damage than helps and you stop the medication and give B vitamins.




> - poop with even more water


This is from enteritis combined with crop candida. You urgently need to give a sulpha drug for coccidiosis. *Furazolidone* may help, from human drugstore. But be aware that too make make the poop yellow, from other (not so harmful) cause. Dose: 10 mg / day for a 300-400 gr pigeon (based on dosage in this drug), proportionally less if your pigeon is smaller.

And for canker, use metronidazole from human drugstore. Ronidazole is not strong enough. Just don't overdose metro, as may cause blindness. dose is 50 mg / day for a 300-400 gr pigeon.

And give water soured with acv each time you give drugs and 2-3 times over the day as well. Last night I discovered the two more seriously sick pigeons, that still pass aqueous droppings (at all other droppings are solid), were still massively infested with candida in their crops. Just make it really sour, close to the point drinking it may be distresful. Don't let her drink other water to not dilute the soured one from crop and reduce the effect.





> - her leg she broke before she came to me (old break that was healed) is hurting her a lot, this happened last time I gave her Roni plus and then I taught he just injured herself somewhere now I know it is because of this medication


It can also be because of coccidiosis. In advanced stages, it destroy the periferic neuronal transmitters of the legs, making them unamovable. I have three pigeons affected by this, two that are limping and one that cannot move the legs at all. If this is the case with yours, A vitamin given for longer periods may help (no more than 5 days in a session, than a 2-3 weeks pause).





> I now just want to stop with this and give her ACV water, vitamins, electrolytes, minerals, probiotics, good food and let her heal without just pumping in meds at random...


Is true that the 2-in-one drug should be stopped, but the problems will not be solved without medication. Coccidia and canker will progressively and fastly destroy the bowel and soon she will not be able to eat solid food at all*. Very possible the weakeness induced by this will allow salmonella to invade the body and kill the bird in matter of days through sepsis. Or the crop will be completely blocked by candida, not even water will pass into gissard, and the bird will get drowned with the water that come into the mouth and enter the lungs. These are the most probable variants of the way the things will go.

And even if you give treatment and manage to kill these germs, the reconstruction of the bowel's walls will last some time afterward.



The situation is complex and dificult to handle. The problems are in two locations - the bowel and the crop - and you have the tackle both AT THE SAME TIME.


_______________
*In such situations, I used to give liquid food (seeds grinded to flour and mixed with water) but this was making the things worse and now I' try to cure the enteritis and make the bird east solid things again, as this is safer.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

You can try furazolidone (from human drugstore) as a sulpha-drug, it was recommended for cocci to me by Dr. Cătălin Tudoran from Romvac laboratories. Dose is 10 mg / day. And for canker, metronidazole, also from human drugstore. Dose: 40 mg / day for a smaller, 250-300 gr pigeon as I think is yours.

Aren't you allowed to buy online medicines? For example, you can buy Coccistop from Romania from websites like this:
http://www.veterinara.ro/Coccistop

The product is cheap, 100 tablets cost 4 lei = 1 (one) dollar so you will pay more for the transport.

Without medication, the damage to the bowel caused by cocci + canker will advance, bird will stop eating and will die, either from salmonelkla (that invades the weakened body) eiher from drowing with water from the blocked crop.

The yellow color of the droppings indicate livel toxicity. It happens when overmedicating or when a drug is too strong for an immunodepressed bird, with weakened liver.


The bird must also have advanced candida, Have you tried the acv-soured water method? This will mantain candida under control if given 2-3 times / day. Just remove the existing water from crop before giving, to not dilute the concentration and nullify the effect. Put a vessel of water maybe a little less soured to have at her disposal over the day and no other source of water. Candida grows very fast at a bird with slow crop, I see this at my pigeons. I impossible to stop it on longer period, you have to gifht it continuously. You can give the soured water 30 minutes before medication or even with the medication.


The white color of the liquyid part of droppings is from hexamita according to sme websites. Hexamita is a flagelate and is treated also with metronidazole. 

Giving metronidazole will supress the wattery character of droppings, at least this happened to me. But it seems that coccidia is the one that causes the initial damage and makes the bird stop eating. 


The leg pain may be caused by cocci as well. In advanced infestation, it destroy the periferic neuronal transmitters to the legs and will make them limp or unmovable at all. Giving A vitamin will partly restore the situation.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

For cocci, Dr. C[t[lin tudorac from Romvac (veterinary drug factory) recommnded me a drug having Furazolidone among components. Maybe trying this for cocci may give results. You can find it at human drug store and the dose for a pigeon / day is 10 mg.

For canker, can't you buy metronidazole from human drugstore?

And as I guess that she is too infested with candida, you can try the method with soured water. I was giving medicines and see no improvement and then realized that it was the crop not leting the drug pass at once in gissard so now I don't give drugs without giving soured water before or in the same time with drugs and the things are working well now.

Th yellow color of droppings is from liver toxicity caused by that drug. It happened to me too with immunodepressed birds. You should stop giving this drug and give B vitamins to heal & protect the liver. This apply any time you gtive drugs, as most are toxic on liver.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

AndreiS I can try to order a medication and hope the package is not opened but any substance that is not legalized in my country presents a problem. If they open the package it will be very serious. So far I ordered things from Aliexpress and every package was opened. 

I can purchase metronidazole at my vet but I will try the other drug in human drugstores. We also have a law that antibiotics can not be purchased without prescription from a doctor. My mother is a nurse so I will try to by pass this but it will be very hard. I will try to ask a vet to give a prescription for this medication but they might not believe it is for the pigeon.

I gave her acv water but the problem now is that she drinks very little, almost nothing, and she keeps doing this during most of the day. This happens with our without acv water. But she has a lot of water in her poop with no change for the better so now I am afraid he will dehydrate. I gave her electrolytes yesterday and she was drinking a bit better but the water in poop is now 3x more. There is no more white water at least. On the other hand she is very active and acts normal. It is strange how bad everything looks and how good she is acting. But I am not fooled by this, she is getting very thin now and I will start feeding peas and seeds again because just in a week time she got quite light. 

I also noticed something very bad. After she poops and everything dries up, I can notice small specks that shine, like glitter. so imagine a poop that is normal, and where the water was you can see these little shining specks. I think her kidneys might be totally damaged and she is just loosing everything even proteins and minerals. This happens no matter what she eats and drinks.

She spends a lot of time in her food bowl and pecks a lot, when I watch her I can see she eats some bigger seeds but most of the time when I feel her crop it is empty, occasionally there is a little bit of food. She used to at least eat well every evening. Now after these roni plus tabs she is not eating anything...


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Also how long does she have to take furazolidone and how long metronidazole. I have a feeling her liver can not take much more nor her kidneys. I am afraid the medications themselves might kill her. Again her polyuria is lasting from 11th February and also after I stopped roni tab the leg stopped urting her and in 24h it was like nothing happened.

Her watery poop begain on 11th of February. That is a long time. I am now afraid PMV is the only cause of kidney damage and water in poop, so if I just pump in medications I am making thing worse. Cocci would kill her if it lasted for so long? What do you think?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You are giving the poor thing drugs when you don't know what the problem is. Can't keep doing that. If treating for canker with Metro, you would treat from 7 to 10 days, but you don't know that the bird has canker. You don't know that there is kidney damage either. I would stop the meds for now and just wait and see how she does. Giving the bird probiotics to help its gut bacteria would be a very good idea, and stop all the drugs for now. You are going to do more damage than good.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

> I gave her acv water but the problem now is that she drinks very little, almost nothing, and she keeps doing this during most of the day. This happens with our without acv water. But she has a lot of water in her poop with no change for the better so now I am afraid he will dehydrate. I gave her electrolytes yesterday and she was drinking a bit better but the water in poop is now 3x more.


 Puting only some dmall amount of acv in water or letting the bird drink soured water if she wants will not help. *The solution must almost give a feeling of burning your throat, like when you drink high grade alcohol* and must be given it using the crop feeding method. 

Believe me, I saw this working tens of times if done correctly, even with severe cases.

I know you master the crop feeding technique, nevertheless, you might find something useful in this video made by me, in which I also explain how the sour solution must be made:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJx8VYePlL4


Give this 3 times / day and don't forget, first remove the water that may be in crop already and don't let over the day other water at her disposal. 




> There is no more white water at least.


As I said, according to descriptions on specialised websites, this is hexamita, that is treated with metronidazole.



> On the other hand she is very active and acts normal. It is strange how bad everything looks and how good she is acting. But I am not fooled by this, she is getting very thin now and I will start feeding peas and seeds again because just in a week time she got quite light.


Birds and other animals have developed a survival technique of dissimulating they are in good shape in order to make predators not pick them, as predators are looking for weak individuals.





> I can purchase metronidazole at my vet but I will try the other drug in human drugstores. We also have a law that antibiotics can not be purchased without prescription from a doctor.


If you can get veterinary metronidazole in hydrosoluble form this is the best variant for such situation (slow / blocked crop), because is faster assimilated by organism and also can be exactly dosed. But that requires owning a high precission scale. Metronidazole and alcohol (vinegar contains alcohol) is a combination that should be avoided so I give the soured water, wait an hour till the water is absorbed into organism, then give the drug. When giving the drug, if you give in liquid form, put it in a small amount of water, like 4 ml.


I'm not sure for your pigeon, but mine and also the ferals in my area suffer from a combination of coccidiosis and canker and it seems is common in other countries as well, as indicated hy existence of such drugs drugs like Roni Plus, which address both pathogens. And the droppings of your pigeon indicates canker in my opinion, as if it was only cocci it was not aqueous but a viscous dark green, badly smelling diarrhea.* If the droppings are rather dark green, it means treatment for cocci is the one that have to be given more urgently and the one for canker at 12 hours difference. And if the droppings are ochre yellow or pale green, you have to give metronidazole first.* As I said, canker causes light colored, ochre yellow droppings, solid at beginning, aqueous when advanced. You will see the two colors alternating, depending of which pathogen was inhibated by medication.

If you manage to make the drug reach the organism with all the dose at once, things will come back to normal fastly, the bird will start to pass solid droppings.

Coccistop works great, especially at first uses (when the pathogen has not developed resistance), 2 days of treatment are enough even in serious cases. Same for metro. You may try to find some sulpha-drug for cocci at some chicken batteries, as coccidiosis is common in chicken.



> I am now afraid PMV is the only cause of kidney damage and water in poop, so if I just pump in medications I am making thing worse. Cocci would kill her if it lasted for so long? What do you think?


I have a bird that for more than an year, in fact almost two, has passed aqueous, at times green droppings. I thought it has kidney damage but with the improvements in last days I started to think it must been some coccidiosis. Some cocci strains are not virulent, I've read that some breeders not even treat coccidiosis, in order to make the bird build immunity. But other strains definitively are deadly.




> I also noticed something very bad. After she poops and everything dries up, I can notice small specks that shine, like glitter. so imagine a poop that is normal, and where the water was you can see these little shining specks. I think her kidneys might be totally damaged and she is just loosing everything even proteins and minerals. This happens no matter what she eats and drinks.


If there is kidney damage, the droppings have some foam. I don't know what those shinning specks are, maybe posting a photo would be a good idea. Nevertheless, as your bird has lost minerals and vitamins with this aqueous diarrhea, also with amprolium treatment (which depletes thye organism of B vitamins), you need to give minerals and vitamins in the form of veterinary supplements. Giving only electrolites is not enough. And electrolytes must be given only for few days, not all the time.



> She spends a lot of time in her food bowl and pecks a lot, when I watch her I can see she eats some bigger seeds but most of the time when I feel her crop it is empty, occasionally there is a little bit of food. She used to at least eat well every evening. Now after these roni plus tabs she is not eating anything...


It may be because of the advancement of disease, not because of drug.



> Also how long does she have to take furazolidone and how long metronidazole. I have a feeling her liver can not take much more nor her kidneys. I am afraid the medications themselves might kill her. Again her polyuria is lasting from 11th February and also after I stopped roni tab the leg stopped urting her and in 24h it was like nothing happened.


Metro should be given at least five days, even if the symptoms have stopped (this can be misleading and if you stop treatment before 5 days, the disease will relapse). In the case of Coccistop, as long as symptoms persist, 2 days of treatment alternating with 3 days pause. For furazolidone, as is an antibiotic, probably no more than 5 days. 
I used furazolidone only once, 1-2 years ago and caused some yellow droppings. An experienced vet told me is not liver toxicity as in case of other drugs but I'm not sure if is harmful or not.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

I looked everywhere for any medication that contains furazolidone with no results. There is Metronidazole in the vets office. However on my own account I will stop all medication. If it means I will kill the poor bird this way it is on my soul. I have been giving this poor pigeon medication blindly from the beginning. Jay3 is right. I get many advice and every advice did not produce results. Not because of you, it is because of the fact that here there is no way to diagnose anything. Who knows what is the true problem. I looked down her throat today and I think her throat is red and tonsils (on the upper beak) are enlarged, again. This was not the case before Roni plus tablets. I am killing her immunity and damaging her internal organs just giving meds at random. Until I find the right one I might kill her.

I will go on hand feeding, vitamins, minerals, probiotics and keep her warm and safe. If she gets very bad and I see she will die I will try something new, but the way I am going like this I feel like I am not giving her a chance but I am just poisoning her removing any chance for success. Even doctors say do no harm, and I should not do any more harm to this poor bird.

Call me a monster or irresponsible, I just can't give her more things that just make her worse.

If I return here and give you news one day she is alive and cured, if I don't return, you know what happened...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would just feed her well, keep her warm and watch and see how she does. But she does need probiotics to help her replace all the good gut bacteria that the meds have killed off. You can use the ones made for humans if you cannot get them made for birds.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I would agree with Jay3.

Let us please have NO MORE web 'diagnoses' and 'treatment plans' unless the poster specifically requests such.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

SilverFeral said:


> I looked everywhere for any medication that contains furazolidone with no results. There is Metronidazole in the vets office. However on my own account I will stop all medication. If it means I will kill the poor bird this way it is on my soul. I have been giving this poor pigeon medication blindly from the beginning. Jay3 is right. I get many advice and every advice did not produce results. Not because of you, it is because of the fact that here there is no way to diagnose anything. Who knows what is the true problem. I looked down her throat today and I think her throat is red and tonsils (on the upper beak) are enlarged, again. This was not the case before Roni plus tablets. I am killing her immunity and damaging her internal organs just giving meds at random. Until I find the right one I might kill her.
> 
> I will go on hand feeding, vitamins, minerals, probiotics and keep her warm and safe. If she gets very bad and I see she will die I will try something new, but the way I am going like this I feel like I am not giving her a chance but I am just poisoning her removing any chance for success. Even doctors say do no harm, and I should not do any more harm to this poor bird.
> 
> ...



You don't seem to be a monster or irresponsible but a carer. Many medicines randomly can poison not only birds but us as well. When we ourselves don't medicate us so randomly why to try it all to these poor fellas. Hope the bird recovers with all your supportive care. 
Thanks for your concern and kindness.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Dear all,

I would finally like to close this story.

After the last treatment I gave her only supportive care. I noticed that her appetite was going a bit thin so I gave her Nystatine just in case there is a fungal infection because of all those antibiotics. She reacted great to this. After 7 days of Nystatine I stopped it as she greatly improved. She started to eat better and would go to her food dish many times a day. She still did continue eating the smaller seeds thou. I hand fed her peas for some time and I stopped that also. Her flying became great. She could finally reach the high places and could land good. She could land even on narrow perches. So I gave her the option to exit on the balcony. She spend 3 days flying around the roof of the building and returning to eat and drink. One day she entered my room, had a good meal drank a lot of water, went to the balcony and just flew away. She just bolted out there toward the city. I waited and waited and she did not return.

This is the third day since she left and I think she will never return again. I am not vorried because of her flying or eating, but she still was polyuric even thou I noticed she drank less water while she was out there and free. I don't know is this a good or bad ending. I am glad I gave her another chance to fly free and be a feral pigeon. However I still could not help but spend this day crying, watching videos of her and missing her greatly.

The other feral found a mate and she returns only for food. She was actually mating today on the balcony. I hope my dear dear Pile Pile, as I called her, is also happy somewhere. 

Thank you all for your advice and time you put in to help me with this little angels. i appreciate all of it and I feel so grateful to all of you. I wish you all happy and healthy lives and many happy birds to bring you joy. 

Good bye everyone.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Silverferal, thank you for helping them. You gave them an opportunity for life. Bless you. Every time we let a bird go...a crow, a woodpecker...that we help, i am upset for days. I hope they are somewhere happy and with a family.


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## Joe Black (Nov 21, 2012)

Great post.. Thank you for helping these poor birds.


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## Joe Black (Nov 21, 2012)

I love this website and the members are so helpful. One of the issues I have found during the years that I have been a member is just the overwhelming amount of information and contradictory advice given to the person with the sick bird. It is obvious that everyone is trying to help but I assure you that it can be confusing and damaging to the health of the pigeon... Maybe we should organize a little more and come to a consensus as to initiate a treatment process and what dozes..... I like the advice of the high doze of Acv few times a day.. I have followed this method and it has worked.... Thanks for everything everyone..


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