# Is she dying?



## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

I dont know if you guys remember me, but youve been very good (especially Cynthia THANK YOU!!) previously when our rescue pigeon has been sick

But today it looks like were losing her 
She was outside this morning having a bask in the sunshine and when M checked on her she was on the bottom of her cage flapping about and couldnt get up, we've looked at her and She has what looks like a matted vent we've bathed her, but she cant stand up and keeps falling to one side. We took her up to the allotments to see if there were any pigeon guys there, luckily there was and he said shes going. He thinks her digestive system is gone ? Shes gotten so thin, we hadnt even noticed how much weight she'd lost until we saw her next to the pigeons in the coop, but shes been eating like a pig, but pooping quite a lot too, but it appears not getting nutrients out of the food and as a result he thinks shes starving to death!
But her eye (she has one missing) is still bright and she doesnt seem to have given up so to speak..
Shes tucked in m's jumper at the moment with her eyes closed (its her favourite place in the world, getting cuddles from him)
But I dont know if we're just waiting for her to go... the pigeon man at the allotments seemed to think she was definitely 'on her way out' 
Shes 15.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'll send Cynthia your post.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Oh Deedee, I am so very sorry to read this. I am not sure what to tell you because at age 15, she may simply be tired and is ready to pass on. If she were my pigeon, I would immediately begin feeding her with Exact formula (about 10 cc every 3 hours) with Nutrical in it and weigh her frequently. Keep her warm and quiet and continue giving her lots of love and encouragement. 

If you are in Great Britain, I don't think Exact is available to you but hopefully, Cynthia can help you again. I noticed Charis has already notified her.

Good luck and I will be thinking of you.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Dee Dee,

Sometimes a coccidiosis overburden causes them to "go light". The only medication that I have for this is Appertex, can send you some if you remind me of your address.

Don't give up on her! Keep her warm, reassured and hydrated. I was brought a little pigeon nearly 5 weeks ago, none of us thought that she would last the night but she is determined to survive.

Now that her vent is clear can you describe her poops?

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Dee Dee, what was the outcome last December? Did she lay an egg?

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Thanks so much again everyone.
Her poo over the past 3 days has been quite dry and brown coloured, i'm not entirely sure that her vent is cleared thoroughly, the outside is though.

Dont worry we haven't given up on her!! No way, shes a little fighter and we wont let her just give up. But she is 15..  
shes been in the same position now for an hour (michael put her in an open fronted box with a towel, shes next to him at his desk) and shes made no attempt to move or get herself more comfortable, her breathing has got deeper, she doesn't appear to have even opened her eyes for the past hour.

How can we get her to drink though? I dont want to stress her out by syringing water down her throat 

We've given her a drop of baytril left over from last time and some cod liver oil.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> Dee Dee, what was the outcome last December? Did she lay an egg?
> 
> Cynthia


No, she recovered after the course of medication that you so very kindly sent  previous to that though she hadn't laid an egg in 2/3 years.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Mix one pint of warm water with half a tablespoon of glucose, honey or sugar and half a teaspoon of salt. Dip her beak gently in that to let her know it is there ...sometimes that is enough to remind them that they are thirsty and they will take a few sips.

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Her back end is definitely swollen up like she has a blockage is there anything we can give her to make her pass whatever poo shes not able to pass? 
Ive given her the drink you suggested Cynthia(it tastes rank! but shes had a few sips)


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Her back end is definitely swollen up like she has a blockage is there anything we can give her to make her pass whatever poo shes not able to pass?


Can you get some liquid paraffin? If you give her 1ml orally that should help, whether it is an egg or an accumulation of faeces. it can also be administered at the other end, as can olive oil, but you have to be careful in case this time it turns out to be an egg.

I had a semi paralysed wood pigeon with an enormous lump of hardened poop in her vent, the vet took her behind the scenes and gently squeezed it out. 

I think this time a vet would be the best choice. Removing the blockage is a matter of urgency.

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Can she have an egg ? she hasnt had an egg for 4 years and shes 15 years old.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

To be honest, I think that it is more likely to be an accunulation of poop due to the pasted vent, although there is also a chance it could be a tumour...but I only say that because one of mine had a tumour that felt like an egg in the vent,

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

*Update*

Well about an hour ago she had a normal poop (cod liver oil win?)
and just 10 minutes ago she just stood up, I couldnt believe it!!! She was trying to walk about but very wobbly, so weve put her in her cage with water, what should we feed her? regular seeds? or something different?

Should we do another cod liver oil capsule tomorrow? Shes not out the woods yet, but so far so good!!
Everything crossed!!

Thanks SO much again!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I would give her a warm hot water bottle to lie on. Give her some glucose in a bit of water if you have any, that will be very easily digestible and provide her with energy.

Let's see how she is in the morning.

Cynthia


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes keep her warm, make up a towel nest on a little warming pad. I'd say it's safe to use a little more oil. You could even put some on her vent.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

great! thanks for the advice, we've given her the glucose, shes still standing up though obviously a little unsteady on her feet, shes nice and warm and has a little hidey shelter,its nice and warm here anyway, so theres no fear of her getting cold.
what else is it safe to leave down for her? her regular pigeon mix?
what about grit?

thanks again for everything, im feeling so much more positive about the little lass  i love her to bits, i hate to see her unwell.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm so sorry to hear she's having problems, but glad to hear she's perked up! I would leave her regular seeds out for her to peck at if she wants. I will be thinking positive thoughts and say some prayers for her quick recovery and many more years!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

No grit for now, smaller seeds should be ok. If she is not eating you should feed her in the morning, especially since she is skinny, she needs the nutrition.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Might want to read this one while you're at it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html

How solid does the swelling in the back end feel? The medication that has worked best for me in a lot of those cases is a Trimethoprim/Sulfa, by the way.

Pidgey


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Update:
Shes still a little unsteady on her feet, but eating and pooping normally, though the swelling is still there.

The only advice we've had so far apart from here is that she'd be put down, or theres very little they can do with birds, so... I suppose at the end of the day to someone else (even the vet ) shes a 15 yr old pigeon with 2 broken wings and one eye... whats the point??

They just dont 'get it'


But shes 100% better today, yesterday we really thought that was it, I dont know how she made it, shes such a little fighter, shes fab.

Theres still obviously the swelling issue which I really dont think is an egg. It wasnt there before and shes not had an egg in 4 years, so its looking like poop or a tumour? Where should we go from here

(and why arent vets arsed!!)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you do me a favor and get her respiration rate (breaths per minute)?

Pidgey


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

can you find a more sympathetic vet?


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

deedee said:


> The only advice we've had so far apart from here is that she'd be put down, or theres very little they can do with birds, so... I suppose at the end of the day to someone else (even the vet ) shes a 15 yr old pigeon with 2 broken wings and one eye... whats the point??
> 
> They just dont 'get it'


I don't get THEM. What difference does it make how old she is, or how many wings or eyes she has?? 

I think her issue may sound tumor-ey. But there are lots of kinds of tumors! Is it possible to try a different vet?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> so its looking like poop or a tumour? Where should we go from here


I would say X-ray. My vet put my pigeon under a plastic cone (I assume that it was one of those collars that stop dogs from interfering with thier stitches) to X-ray her so that it could be done without anaesthetic.



> and why arent vets arsed!!


Some are, but most of them don't have any experience of dealing with birds, and surgery is dangerous so they would rather avoid it.

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Morning!
Ive been recommended a vet!! At last!

SO, her swelling has gone right down. Shes a lot more lively, though not 100% and pooping and eating.
Do you think we still need to do the vet?? The thing is were just terrified of the worst and whilst shes not in any pain and seems to be happy getting cuddles still and saying hello... I dont want the vet to tell us to just have her put to sleep.
(because i dont know the vet, i dont know how sympathetic hes likely to be to the situation..)
Does any of that make sense?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

deedee said:


> Morning!
> Ive been recommended a vet!! At last!
> 
> SO, her swelling has gone right down. Shes a lot more lively, though not 100% and pooping and eating.
> ...


I am glad to hear the swelling has gone down and that she is feeling so much better.
I would certainly consider another vet, but you should call and find out how experienced he/she is with pigeons and whether they would X ray. Many just don't have the knowledge.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is all good news!

You said that the swelling has gone right down. Is there any swelling left? Did she pass anything that could account for the swelling?



> I dont want the vet to tell us to just have her put to sleep.
> (because i dont know the vet, i dont know how sympathetic hes likely to be to the situation..)
> Does any of that make sense?


Sadly that makes perfect sense to me. I can't deny that I have had vets recommend euthenasia when it was not appropriate and as I was not experienced enough to weigh up the situation I followed the advice and regretted it. If a vet tells you that she should be euthanased you don't have to do follow his advice , but it puts a great doubt in your mind as to whether you are causing suffering...been there! What I always tell people is to get as much information on why the vet thinks a bird (or animal) should be euthanased, what its chances of recovery are judged to be and exactly why euthanasia is considered the best course...and then to take the patient home and discuss the whole situation here before making any decision.

You would be amazed at the recoveries that "doomed" pigeons have made.


Cynthia


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

deedee,
If the vet says to put her down, you listen to your pigeon and listen to your heart, and take her home. If your pigeon is eating/ drinling/pooping and looks like she still enjoys life and being with you, there's your answer. If she looks at you with eyes that ask for release and relief, she's telling you it's time. In that case, give her a cuddle, a kiss, tell her it's ok to go and that you'll see her again, some day. And, if you're like me, you hold her when the needle goes in and her spirit flies free, telling her how much you love her and how much you'll miss her.
Daryl


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

thanks guys,

i'll ring the vets and see what he says.

shes so incredibly thin though, her breastbone is sticking out, but shes eating lots and shes drinking, but shes sooo fussy! i think she'd starve herself to death rather than eat anything she doesnt like.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

she has an appointment at the vets at 4.15


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Good luck!

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Thank youuuu
xx


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

So, theres no egg, no poo and the vet doesnt think theres a tumour. He says its just old age and her body is failing. 
the prognosis is a week if were lucky, but most probably days 

As long as shes not in pain and still got a twinkle in her eye and loving still cuddles then we're not giving up on her.

But at least we know theres nothing properly wrong thats causing her pain or distress. Shes incredibly thin, her breastbone when she was on her back looked like chicken carcass  theres nothing left on her at all. All we can do now is keep her as happy as we can and hope she doesnt get ill or end up in pain and need to be put down and just goes naturally in her own little time.

I'll keep you all updated, in the meantime is there anything to try and get a bit of weight on her.. or is it a losing battle?


thank you so much again.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sorry to hear this. TAWhatley just lost a 21 year old today. Very sad.........I'm still in shock.
However, your girl is 15 and most pigeons, no matter how well kept don't live that long. 
I have no idea what to tell you to do. I've never had any animal get so old that it just passed away.
Just keep her comfortable I suppose,...........oh..........this isn't a good day now..........









If there's anything that you can do, I'm sure someone will be along with suggestions.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is sad news, and it is probably right , but vets can also be wrong and there was a lump, which must have been something other than old age! This is one of those situations where you prepare for the wort but hope for the best, just carry on giving her lots of love and cuddles.

One of my recent rescues was unable to eat at all, Hallswood told me to give her glucose as that is so easily digested. Other fattening foods are safflower, peanuts (chopped peanuts are always a treat for pigeons), sunflower seed hearts and hemp. These wouldn't make a balanced healthy diet in normal circumstances, but are foods that pigeons love , so from that angle they will do her good.

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ohhhh, Deedee .. I'm so sorry your oldster is having problems. You've gotten good advice here. Do the best you can for her, and if it is now her time, then you will know that you did all you could. I lost my 21 year old pigeon this morning with no advance notice that he was ill or at the end of his life. While I'm very sorry your bird is not well, at least you have had the chance to realize this and try to deal with it.

Please do keep us posted. My heart breaks for you.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

deedee said:


> So, theres no egg, no poo and the vet doesnt think theres a tumour. He says its just old age and her body is failing.
> the prognosis is a week if were lucky, but most probably days
> 
> As long as shes not in pain and still got a twinkle in her eye and loving still cuddles then we're not giving up on her.
> ...




Hi deedee, 



A couple thing to consider would be...


'Worms'...


Vitamine deficiencys...


Does she get direct unfiltered Sunshine now and then?


Has her diet been augmented with foods other than 'Seeds'? ( ie: Sea Weeds, Fresh Greens, Sprouts or other?) 


Worms can have them feeling a loss of interest to eat or drink...



What has her diet been?



Phil
l v


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Thanks again you lovely bunch!

Shes really perked up, but on a really slow decline, 

Her diet is a disgrace, shes soooo FUSSY! She wont eat nuts, sunflower seeds, greens - anything! Even her pigeon mix she just picks out a few bits that she likes and leaves the rest, we end up giving at least 75% of it to the wild birds in the garden, over the years ive tried her on everything! But nope! she likes the green peas in the pigeon mix, but not fresh ones or cooked garden peas, she LOVES hemp though, but I didnt think pigeons were supposed to have it all the time?
If we can get her fattened up a bit I think she'll be loads better, but thats just my opinion, Im not a vet or a zillionth of an expert, but knowing Hoots its just what i think.

I really cant thank you guys enough, youre all brilliant. Thanks soooo much!!
xxx

eta: ooh and when we told the vet we'd been giving her baytril he was really disgruntled and said that yes he would have done that too, but where did we get it from, was it a vet? how did we get it? who said we could have it? etc. My lips were sealed obviously, but its funny how arsey he got about it.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Ohhhh, Deedee .. I'm so sorry your oldster is having problems. You've gotten good advice here. Do the best you can for her, and if it is now her time, then you will know that you did all you could. I lost my 21 year old pigeon this morning with no advance notice that he was ill or at the end of his life. While I'm very sorry your bird is not well, at least you have had the chance to realize this and try to deal with it.
> 
> Please do keep us posted. My heart breaks for you.
> 
> Terry


 I'm so sorry Terry.
Thats awful. (((((hugs)))))


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi deedee, 



I get occasional Ferals, who though large and wide are so emeciated it is like holding a crumpled piece of paper.


All I can surmise, is that a liesured Bacterial illness has wasted them, and, u-s-u-a-l-l-y, I can get them over it by guess-and-golly Medicine wise, and, by tube feeding especially nutritious formulas.so that after a while, they are healthy again gaining weight and filling out to their old selves again.


Were I to rely on their slight interest to eat on their own, or, their 'pickyness', I am confident they would not pull through.


So, my opinion for your consideration, is for you to begin tube feeding, intentional, nutritious, and Vitamine-mineral enhanced formulas, and, not to rely on your Pigeon's finicky self feeding, which in your case, may very well be what underlay a long-standing nutritional deficiency which saw their immune system unable to fend off whatever the bacterial or other wasting-illness is.


I'd be happy to mention details of ingredients and general regimen for this if you liked.


As for the ones I get, the illness is liable to respond better to one antibiotic or another, so I can not say which medicine is best, since one has to usually try different ones by guess or intuition, and sense what seems to be hints of encouragement as for affirming the choice.



Good luck..!

Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Deedee, please try hand feeding her.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree with Maggie. Please do hand feed her. Often baytril will make them go off the food and she needs all the nourishment she can get.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Dee Dee,

I have some Poly Aid which is "to stop sick pigeons from starving". It has all the nutrients a pigeon needs in it and is what St Tiggywinkles us. I have been keeping "My Little Angel" alive on it for over 6 weeks.

If you remind me of your address I can send you some to try out.

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Just a quick update, shes still hanging on in there, eating like a pig but i think shes starting to get tired now. 

shes got diarrhoea quite bad and spends most of her time in the corner of her cage, its probably only a matter of time now, but i just wanted to update you all, as youve been absolutely brilliant.
thank you again,
x


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As a last-ditch, I'd probably try a Trimethoprim/Sulfa drug on her. I don't know what they call that in the UK, but it goes by a lot of names like: Divet, CoTrim, SulfaTrim, Bactrim, etc. That drug has brought quite a few hens with oviduct problems back for me that Baytril hasn't helped very well.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

In the UK it is called Septrim. We use the paedeatric suspension on pigeons. The dosage is 0.3 mls per 100 gms bodyweight twice a day for 7 days. 

As it a drug produced for human use it can be bought in pharmacies with a prescription issued by the vet.

However, I remember hearing that it was being withdrawn for some reason. although long after that I saw a bottle in one the dispensary of one of the larger veterinary practices here.

Dee Dee I have lost track. Have you given her probiotics?

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi everyone,
Just to let you know that Hoots died at 1am this morning, 
about 9 last night she couldnt stand up and looked like she'd finally had enough, so michael sat cuddling her and talking to her for hours til she passed away peacefully inside his jumper (her favourite place)

I feel ok knowing we did all we could and she went peacefully having a cuddle, but I just wanted to thank you all for all of your help, kindness and well wishes, and a huge thanks to Cynthia without whom we would have lost her in November, thanks so much all of you. You really are all lovely people.

deedee
xxx


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm SO sorry and sad to hear the news, Deedee.

I know you all did everything you could, and she passed with lots of love and comfort surrounding her. She is is now in total peace. Sending my heartfelt condolensces.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

thank you, youre all so kind.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so very sorry. 

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, DeeDee. I know that she was an old bird, but I kept hoping that the vet was wrong. I am glad that you were able to cuddle her up to the end, and that she was surrounded by love.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Deedee, I am so sorry to hear the sad news. I have been watching your thread closely and you have been wonderful with the care you have given Hoots.
Thank goodness she was cuddled up and loved when she passed, she couldn't have asked for more.

Janet


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Squeaks and I are adding our heartfelt condolences too, Deedee!

R.I.P. Hoots

WITH LOVING COMFORTING THOUGHTS AND HUGS

Shi & Squeaks


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