# Pigeon with eyes infected-injured - Help!



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all,

Brought to me a few hours ago, an adult Pigeon who shows severe swelling and inflamation of both Eyes.  


Please, be warned the images are very unpleasant and painful to look at...but may be seen at -

http://community.webshots.com/album/312446336EMCkwW

Now, as I had to run an errand earlier, just after this Bird was brougt to me, I elected to at least start some regimin before I left, so I aplied some 'Neosporin' to his enormously enflamed eye Lids and their immediate surrounds, later, finding the Box the Neosporin came in, to say, "Not for unse in Eyes", so...I hope I did not aggrivate his woes in that move...but I thought the Neosporin would gently seep into and loosen some of the dried Blood and semi-dried excrences he has on and around his Eyes.

This Bird also has some sort of enteritis (bright green poo with chalky yellow liquid) and what I take to be the usual Tricomoniasis infections which I will address shortly with a down-the-hatch tablet. 

I do not know how eating will be managed yet...since of course he can not see to peck. he is standing and does not present an unusually emaciated condition, but I am certain he has not eaten lately anyway, so, I ill have to feed him tonight if he does not elect to eat of his own, which I doubt he will do...so...

My next thought was to gently flush them with a tepid solution of Water with some proportion of Salt dissolved in it, but please, if anyone here can advise me or supply even some guesses of something, I do need to address his condition here and soon i think would be best.

I do not know what sort of medication to consider applying once I have flushed and washed his eye lids...

I am going to see an all night Vet clinic here in a little while on another matter, and I will bring him too in case they would look at him a moment, but they might elect to look or advise me, or they might not have much to offer...maybe they will have some advise...but I can not count on it, or on even getting to see anyone if they are buisy.

So, any of your wisdom or past experiences and regimins, would be very appreciated for guiding me...!

Thank you!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phil,

Only use artificial tears (saline) to flush eyes. 1-2 drops every three hours. I understand from Kimberley that they come in boxes of individual vials at drug stores. She also specifically said NOT Visine because it has other chemicals that are not good for eyes.

An oral painkiller like Metacam will help. You could also try to get antibiotic eye drops from the vet.


Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Phil .. those are really ugly/nasty looking eyes .. please let us know what the vet said.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, 

Thank you...!

"Artificial Tears" it shall be. 
There is an all-night Drug store close by so I will go there and see if they have some.

The all night Vet clinic has been swamped so far...(Midnight now) so...I will call them again in a little while. They have people sitting and waiting who were waiting before ten...

It is largely from their having my name on the wall that I am getting these various Birds, otherwise for fifteen years now it was only the few from my own Wild Flock pals, or some very few people who had my number from years ago...

So, the all night (only) Vet place, refers callers to me, and most of their Doctors by now have heard the others talk about this, as they can not accept any Wild Birds or 'ownerless' no paying Birds, or, if they do, they must euthenize them more or less promptly, which they hate to do, they are decent people but obliged to their employer's policys...they are just employees of a corporate business thing and it has it's policys which can get them fired if they do not abide. 

So, sometimes they accept one someone brought in cold as a walk in, and then call me to come get, or they refer the caller ( when someone did call first instead of comeing straight in) to me and give them my number...

I am the only name on their wall, and they are the only place my name is on the wall of...and it is about all I can handle now sadly, (eight Birds at the moment) with my very limited room and means for these little Birds...


Why do the worst cases seem to arrive on Saturday nights! ??? !

Now, the 'Neosporin' does seem to have helped to some extent, his lower lids are kind of blinking off and on, and now they look 'tender' and soft and delilcate and very swollen, instead of truely ghastly. 

This Bird has decent Keel muscles and weight and is very strong. Good intact Wings and Legs and good posture and stance.

I have been trying off and on ( five times now I guess) to get his Beak open so I may introduce a 'Spartrix' tablet to address his Trichomoniasis enteritis problems as they will likely kill him in a few days the way he is if I do not, plus he needs all the immune system he can get for dealing with his Eye problems...and if I do not get some food into him soon also, he will likely perish...and I am not managing to get his Beak open to get the tablet in there for him to swallow. So that does not bode well for me tube feeding him tonight either.

He adamently will not drink, or I could use some of the Canker-Trich meds which one dissolves in Water. Or even get him to drink some light nourishing Soup I can easily make, like what very young ones would eat...

This is really one of those times it sucks to be alone...my old girlfriend was a whiz at getting (one handed even!) those Beaks open...darn, she is long gone, so maybe I should have let my nails grow too...? Lol...opening those Beaks is hard to do with close nails like I have, one hand or two. 

Thank you!

Well, so much for my Tea Break...back to work now...

Phil


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi pbpbison,

Your new patient looks so pathetic. Blessings to you (from the cosmos) for helping him/her out. 

I just wanted to ask you if you've been doing the bird burrito thing w/pijie? I live alone and its been the best way for me to get a handle on the oral meds. I just learned how to syringe into crop a few days ago from the vet, talk about squirming...but the towel wrap plus a finger towards back of beak area to keep the beak open should put you well on your way. I also will put a finger behind the head to help stabilize it.

Just a thought, maybe the vets would be willing to show you some of their tricks or give advice off the record in exchange for the tremendous service you are providing to the community and their conscience (vets, that is).

best
fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi feralpigeon,


Yes, the 'Bird Burrito'! I have done that sometimes...I will try it for this one, thanks for reminding me..!

I have used it on those 'squirmers' which some tend to be, who were usuallyu members of my Wild Flock when I am dealing with their occasions of 'string feet', where I have to lay them on their backs in the depression between my knees-thighs while I sit, so I can have good access to their feet and legs. Most oblige very well with no wrap, but sometimes, some will be quite the wiggle worms.

Eye-patient is standing, had pooped a few little dabs of green-yellow slime, so...12:21 now and I slept long and less than well. I will 'Buttirto' him in a moment and get that 'spartrix' down the hatch, and maybe see if I can get some soup down there in an hour or so also. Darn, last night would have been ideal for the 'spartrix' but I was way overtired and could not get the Beak open.

Eyes look much better today than yesterday, a little less swelling for sure, and much cleaner. I went out and bought some Saline for people-eyes late last night, and then did some internet search on how one may boil Water, add a little Salt and Baking Sode before Boiling, and boil to steralize, so, I made about a quart last night and let it cool with a lid on it for today. I will remember to warm it up to tepid before useing...

Thank you!

Thanks for reminding me about the 'Burrito Bird' method..!

Legs "back" of course when one wraps them...

Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,

Hope your little patient is doing better today....FP brought up the burrito wrap....the following link takes it a step further by placing the wrapped bird in a lined plastic decorative Kleenex box to keep the bird in place while keeping both your hands available...it's easier if you go look at it. Click on the link and then click on pigeon rescue....the slideshow is actually to show a feeding method, but the method used to keep the bird contained while feeding may also help you when giving meds:

http://community.webshots.com/user/mrenya 

Hope this helps and best of luck for a full recovery

Linda


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lin, fp...

Thanks so much...

Whew, 5:00 already and my so-far day has slid sideways some...got lots done, but not necessarily what needed it most.

Eye-Buddy looks even better now, from this morning!
...lids are less swollen, less enflames looking, and I can see his eyes now as such. He is blinking off and on now also. 

He is one strong and self-willed Bird! I did get 1/2 of a 'Spartrix' down-the-hatch, but he was just too wild a wiggler to get him into the 'Burrito' way-of-handling, so I cut about 4 inches off of a Cotton Work-Boot sock, and kind of rolled it on over him quickly so his head stuck out and he let me get away with it before he knew it. That let me get the Beak open fairly well then without all that wing-Action going on. But then he was getting so and wiggley anyway, I decided to let him rest a while. I will need to feed him soon so thank you for the link, I will look into it now.

Someone brought me a young, fledgling Duck with a hurt leg last night also, so my life is Crazy now. Duck wants to be with me constantly, slept next to my head on a towell nest I set up, and is one total charmer. Their leg seems fine today, (I had examined it last night expecting a break from their description, but the leg seemed fine to me but for being a little weak or tender, which soon cleared up after he rested and ate and napped a little...even to where they have jumped off the bed a few times ( not my idea) and walks normally after hitting the ground...so, I am awaiting a friend of mine to come by and we will take the Ducklet back to the Pond-in-the-Park and let them get back to their family there. Little Duck ate like a champ about five times today and four or five last night and is a BREEZE to care for, but for how it wants to follw me if I am not close by, so that makes it kinda hard to deal with other things, because I do not want them grazing on the floor thinking I led them TO some grazing opportunities...the floors here are not clean enough or intended for Ducks discernments of grazing...! NOt right now anyway...

They are certainly the social Creature at this age...and if I sneak out of his sight for a moment he starts honking in a youngster's kind of way...I guess the thing to do is make a sling or something and just carry them around if one has to! That, or sweep the floors well in advance...no time for that now, and way too much stuff laying around anyway to do it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Lin, 


The 'Kleenex' Dispensor is very appealing!

Thanks again for the link...

Usually, when i have made Burritos of them, I just laid them down on my thighs, and was working on 'string-feet' rather then Pilling...so...the dispensor will be a good method for them to enjoy an upright orientation for the 'pill' to get swallowed or other attentions as may be...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...I made something identical in function to the Kleenex dispenser, out of a small elongate cardboard box of the correct width and it worked wonderfully with a 'Burrito-Bird' in it! Had a nice oval hole on one end for his Tail, and the other end fully open...nice!

This Bird however is THE fiercest wiggle-worm and fuss-budget that I ever saw. Three rounds of him in the Burrito Holder, and the first two he wiggled out of the very well done cloth-wrap, so I had to start over. 

I had his legs layed 'back' toward his Tail, with the long strip of cloth getting wrapped starting from the small of his back to keep those Legs back, and wrapping around and up then to finally enclose his shoulders...and, well, the third wrap held well but maybe was too tight and I felt he was starting to pass out so I unwrapped him.

Zero luck on getting a feeding tube ( I have a four inch piece of something like a No. 5 Fr. Catheter on a 10 mL syringe whose special female-female Leur connection goes on the outside of the clear very soft Catheter...I did finally in desperation, put just a little thickish 'Soup' (made of Kay-Tee, LaFabers, some Emergen-Cee and Water) just merely into the end of his Beak and he swallowed that after letting it sit in there a few moments...

He pulls his head and neck 'in' so much while twisting, that I can not tell at all where I am going if I push the Catheter in far enough to m-a-y-b-e be in his Crop...I was trying to introduce it on his right, my left side...and carefully of course, but it scared me to squeeze any food down in there without feeling confident about where in fact the end of the syringe was...so...I will try again in a little while.

I have tried maybe twenty times this second half of the day to get him simply to drink, having made up a little batch of 4x concentrate Ronadazole just in case I could get him to drink at least 'something' anyway...for starters...but he will not drink, or, in all them trys, he got maybe a little tiny bit each time from my bringing it up from below his Beak up to his Beak-nubs, where a few times, he kind of swallwed a tiny bit...so...

Any advices or further tips? They will be cheerfully received!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, eyes are responding well so far! Blinking now with lids that are 1/8th inch open in the middle, and I can see the actual 'eye' a little bit now as it clears up. Still a lot of very tender looking swelling of the lids and surrounds but SO much better.

I just got some advise on the 'phone, that there are 'Triple Antiobotic Creams' available at Drug stores which would be better for Eyes than the Neosporan, so I will head out in a moment to get some.

I enlisted a volenteer this afternoon to help me hold him while I open his Beak to plop a 'Spartrex' down there...I cut the tablet in half and did two rounds of a half tablet each time. So, Finally! That got 'done'...

I got him to drink about 1/2 mL of a thin nutrient Soup all tolled over maybe thirty trys combined, but he is one stubborn Bird on drinking anything.

He was standing on one leg at times today, and earlier was preening...so...those are heartening signs...

Keep him in your prayers, and that I can interest him to drink the thin nutrient soup! He needs some nourishment desperately and is too much of a wiggle worm for me to try tube feeding him with my lack of experience with that method...

His tric infection is likely supressing his appiitite and thirst which sometimes happens with these Birds who have it...he does seem to swallow allright and the glimpses I did get dod not show any chunks of yellow in his gullet, so, I think his throat is allright enough, just he does not want to eat or drink anything.

Thanks all...that's today's update on his progress...

Love to all...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Phil,
I usually don't post here but happened to see this series regarding the pigeon with infected eyes. I would like to suggest a few things but hopefully, you won't take it as criticism. People can be sensitive to changing the way they do things and these suggestions are meant to make life a bit easier for you and the birds you take care of.
The best medication for this is Terramycin eye ointment. You can get tubes from Global, Foys or Jedds over the net. Some people feel that Terramycin is useless as bacteria have developed immuntity. That may be so in a coop over a long period of time but the medicaton is very effective with use in feral pigeons as they have never been exposed to it. Apply it twice a day.
The second thing you need is Baytril. It is very broad spectrum and covers a host of bacterial infections when you don't know what specific illness is hitting the bird. This pigeon needs Baytril twice a day for at least 8-10 days. There is no wall between the eyes and the sinuses and this infection may have come from the sinuses so the systemic antibiotic is vital for this bird. Please don't release this bird until he has been treated with Baytril for that length of time. The drug can also be obtained from the three vendors menioned above. If you know a vet, try to get 20 mg pills, quarter them to make 5 mg doses and give on dose every 8 hours.
Thirdly, laying a bird on its back is very dangerous. There could be a reflux from the crop into the trachea and aspiration could occur. It has happened in vet offices even doing a simple procedure of trimming toenails. Instead, hold the bird with your left hand over the bird's back with your right hand holding food or medicine. With your right hand, gently pry open the beak and put the meds or food into the back of the mouth. The bird will take it the rest of the way. When you master this, it's a lot easier and a lot safer.
In situations where the bird does not have a canker infection, use one full pill. In situations where the bird does have canker, give one pill every day for four days and then, at the end of the canker infection, treat with one pill a day for 2 or three days.
String injuries are very common and again, you have to find a way of cutting it all off without turning the bird upside down. Holding the bird with my left hand over the back, I work from above and when there is a need to work on the bottom of the foot, I either lift the foot up or turn the bird on its side but always making sure the head is higher than the body.
You have to keep the bird's strength up and a nutritional "Soup" is not going to help much. Buy a bag of Purina Puppy Chow, throw about 20 pieces into tepid water. Don't allow the Chow to become soggy. Just wet them. Feed the bird piece by piece using the "Overhand method." If the bird holds the food and there are droppings, feed a larger amount until the crop feels relatively full. It should feel like a golfball but no larger.
Thanks for caring.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Fred,

Below...amid...



fred128 said:


> Phil,
> I usually don't post here but happened to see this series regarding the pigeon with infected eyes. I would like to suggest a few things but hopefully, you won't take it as criticism. People can be sensitive to changing the way they do things and these suggestions are meant to make life a bit easier for you and the birds you take care of.
> 
> Oh, please do help me with info! Anytime...
> ...


Thank you!


I appreciate your writing to me on this...I welcome your advice comletely!


Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...


Well..keep him in your prayers...

Yesterday, the Gal called me who had found him...and asked if I needed a hand with anything, and it was perfect since I felt I needed a hand to get a 'spartrix' ( two halves, one at a time with a breather inbetween) down his hatch...so, she came by and helped hold him gently as I did the beak open and Tablet plunk.

Bird buddy was VERY difficult and wiggley...to say the least, through several well done 'buttiro' episodes...

Anyway, she offered to come over again today around 5:00 to do it again, so...

THIS time, I grabbed a roll of 3/8ths inch wide micro-pore Tape, which sticks well and comes off well with gentle care, to come off the Feathers, so...

I did one nice wrap an inch or so in from his Primary ends which included his Tail, and a nice tape wrap two inches up from that, then did a few over his shoulders at an angle, over his Keel, and behind his thighs, leaving his Crop free of interference of course, and...

He stayed calm and did very well with it...!

This was a very elegent and simple method for me and him compared to the Burrito-Wrap which he TOTALLY hated.

He protested having his Beak gently opened, but allowed it once we had a rolled up piece of Terrycloth on his shoulders and neck to limit the backward movement of his Head.

The Taping was easy to do, he let me do it without protest as he stood. Then let us handle him with little protest once nicely taped into what in effect, was as snug as a Burrito... 


Anyway, I elected to tube feed him and so I did two sessions, the first, with a half-a-spartrix mixed in, was about 4mL of Gravy-Thick 'soup'...then, a hour and a half later, another 4 mLs with the other hapf of the 'Spartrix' in it.

This was a big deal for me since the only occasion of me trying it, many many years ago, went badly.

This one went well, I very carefully went to what would be my left side of hie throat, which is his 'right'...my 'left', his 'right'...and down the Catheter end went and he just closed his Beak on it and held it in place for me. 

This went well. I also finally got to look into his throat and saw no 'cheeze' stuff... and I got the Catheter into his Crop nicely and it all went well. Catheter is maybe three inches long, and fits inside of a plastic-metal-tube Luer Lock which fit on the end of a 10 mL syringe. All of which is easy to dis-assemble, wash and soak in 10 percent Bleach and 90 percent Water, after use.

All the labels for 'Triple Antibiotic Cream' I went and read last night, mentioned the same three ingredients which 'Neosporin' has, so I had elected not to get any since they are actually the same thing as it is.

Eyes are looking even better yet..lids are still very puffy and tender looking, and are starting to itch, so I will make a little 'collar' of some kind to keep him from scratching with his feet-nails as I saw him doing earlier and intervened to prevent.

Gotta run now...till next...

Thank you all so much!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...

The all night Vet clinic sez "No" on letting my buy any 'Baytril' from them, because they are not allowed to do that without a full exam of the Patient, and I think they are like a hundred bucks or something for that, so...(But most of the people there were rooting for me, wanting the doc to let me have some, because they were the place that refered the gal who found this Bird, refered her to me... and the tecks and so on were way let down that the Doc wouldn't-couldn't find a way to do it without feeling like he had broke the code or agreements of working there not to do things like that) so...

There is also another ( the only) Vet who I can call on for examinations or the likes...but I have to keep it WAY seldom or the mood will suffer...I could call him tomorrow morning and see if he will supply me with some, I can bring the Bird and get a quick exam for him to satisfy the ethics question of letting me leave with some meds.

He is not a Bird-Man, but is a good all round Vet...


What else might be a good choice?

I do have some Oxytetracycline injectible which i can use in Water for him to drink or get tubed into his Crop...

Suggestions?

Poos have been bright green slime in chalky yellow liquid...no mucous, not much for solids.

I can order some 'Baytril' tomorrow morning from Foys or the likes, any suggestions on who is closest for me to order from? Like if I were to order it next-day-air?

Lemme know what you think...

Thanks,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi all...
> 
> The all night Vet clinic sez "No" on letting my buy any 'Baytril' from them, because they are not allowed to do that without a full exam of the Patient, and I think they are like a hundred bucks or something for that, so...(But most of the people there were rooting for me, wanting the doc to let me have some, because they were the place that refered the gal who found this Bird, refered her to me... and the tecks and so on were way let down that the Doc wouldn't-couldn't find a way to do it without feeling like he had broke the code or agreements of working there not to do things like that) so...
> 
> ...



New England Pigeon Supply has Baytril in liquid form to administer via dropper
for $25.00 then figure best way to send--good luck.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks fp,

I will call the (good sport as long as I keep the occasions kinda far between!) Vet fellow and ask him first, if a no-go, then I will order some. 

Nighty-night...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Phil,
The ointment I am referring to is Terramycin opthalmic antibiotic ointment. I am assuming it is sterile because it is specifically for the eyes. All I can say is that it had better be.
By a "Pill," I'm referring to one Spartrix pill. Canker is a protozoan in the Trichamonas family. It can set up shop anywhere in the digestive system but usually starts in the mouth and throat. It can easily be seen by the yellowish/whitish colonies that grow. The problem in curing canker is that originally, the organism breaks through the mucous membrane to get into the tissues. After the canker is killed off, the mucous membrane has to cover over again or the next time the bird is exposed to it, the canker easily penetrates the tissues. After a canker infection is cleared up, time is needed for the mucous membrane to heal.
You are confronted with what most of us are. The vets do not want to treat wildlife because there is no profit in it so in order to get passed the receptionist, you have to agree to pay for the consult and the exam. That's why I do the work myself. If I didn't, there is no way I could afford to take care of ferals.
The Tetracycin you asked about would be fine if not for putting it in water. Antibiotics put into drinking water are usually not very effective because no matter what you do with it, it is going to be diluted and dosing will depend on how much and how often the bird drinks. 
22.5 mg pills are not easy to break up into proper doses. I've tried it and wouldn't recommend it. Your best bet is to order it from the pigeon supply houses. If it comes in liquid form, give two drops, eight hours apart. That is the equivalent of a 5mg dose of solid Baytril. Keep the liquid refrigerated.
As long as the "Soup" you give has mostly Kaytee, that's fine but always keep seed and water available to the bird all the time.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for the update Phil. You are doing a fine job of caring for this pij.

_"The all night Vet clinic sez "No" on letting my buy any 'Baytril' from them, because they are not allowed to do that without a full exam of the Patient"_

Although, it probably seems a bit disheartening, you have to give the clinic credit for not dispersing medication at will.  

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phil,

Just as a matter of interest what makes you think he has canker?

Is his breathing okay? 

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,

I initially saw the chalky small saturated splotches of dull yellow, and associated it with the trichominiasis. Too, I have been really exhausted these last few weeks and my judgements have not been at their best...

Probably it is an enteritis instead or an enteritis attentandt to some other illness.

So far too, these years, I could find no Books to tell me practical things, practical diagnosis, to know which regimin or recourse to embrace.

it is noce to read the list of meds sold through various concerns, which tell one NOTHING about how to tell what it is one's Bird has.

Even still, untill recently I had no computer and so no internet. There was almost nothing I could find anywhere from endless askings and calls, to help me learn about what I was confronting with Bird illnesses and their symptoms. I stillknow of almost nothing to inform me. Tests or exams never proved useful either when I did pay for them. I get charged for lab-work whose results come weeks later, as well as charged for an exam that was no better than my own exam.

So....what to do?


The only "Bird" vets here are unwilling to talk or see or have anything to do with a Pigeon or a dove or a sparrow even if one DOeS pay them full bore. They want you to drop them off for them to euthenize them to then say, "Oh, well, we are sorry to say the little patient did not make it" since they INSIST you drop them off IF they are going to see them at all, and also, the top Bird Vets will NOT see them at all "period".

So, my attempts to learn FROM them, have not prpved very useful.

The Pigeon racers or fanciere here that I found, care only for bragging rites of "winning Birds" and nothing else. If they loose a Bird and i find it and call them, they say, "Well, if he did not make it home or got hurt I guess he is not much of a winner" and they do not even want "their" Bird back if I bring it to save them the trouble.

So...

Here, in Las Vegas, almost every injured and most orphan Pigeons and Doves that have had, tended to have these watery, chalky dull-yellow, liquid poops that dry fast and saturate the cloth they are on, which usually responded well to the treatments for the trichomoniasis, so I associated these poos of Mr. sore Eyes, with that.

These last 17 years or so, my Work with Birds had been mostly limited to those of my own feral Flock who sometime needed some help. But having left my number with the all-night-Vet-clinic in February, i got slammed and have stayed slammed, and I have been way overtaxed.

I love these Birds so much, but I have had very few decent nights sleep now in almost two months, and being self employed, it has been very very difficult to get my work done.

This last week, I have done nothing for 18 hours every day BUT attend to these Birds...! Or to be makinf fresh food or one thing or another for them.

Oh, my...so...a couple days ago I called the all night place and told them to take down my name for now.

I am so tired I am making all kinds of errors in everything. I will make a phone call and I do not remember who I called...or I go all day forgetting to eat, since, i go from one Bird to the next, dealing with one thing or another, all day long now, and...

Too, here, in spite of all my many efforts especially these last two months, I have found no one in Las Vegas as for a compadre, no one who will even talk about Birds or their care for more than a moment or so of their rudeness or condensation or sneers. There is a big so-called organization called 'wild wing' who neither returns calls nor talks "with" one if they answer when one calls. Dead-energy, unpleasant silences if you ask them something...dead unpleasant silences if you ask them how to join or learn more about their organization...on and on...

The gal who brought me the Pigeon with the infected Eyes, is the only help I have had.

The one good-guy Vet who I can call on if I keep it seldom, had a kind of cold mood the last time I called him, when I wished to pay for an x-ray for a Bird's wing, and he went on about how it is 70, no 80, well, 80 for the first if there are more then one, and...it all felt wrong, when he coulda just said, "Sure Phil, one quicky x-ray, and I gotta charge you 100 bucks" or something, but he went on in long confuseing ambulations...which really about how he just did not want to do it no matter the price I would have to pay.

I love this work, and I wish to learn more from now on and forever, but for now, I am spent...I am exhausted...and about the best it is gunna be it seems, is that no one else here is interested, no one here does any of this, no one here knows of anyone here who does, and the vets are little to no help.

So yes, I respect that the all night places vets did not want to sell me some Baytril.

And also, I have no respect for them at all.

Their loyalty is not to a Medical Oath, or they would find a way to say, "Okay, one minimal quicky exam so we can see what meds we think are right for the Bird, and we will be as easy on you as we can, like say 50 bucks bing our mimimal charge, plus whatever the meds we recommend may cost" and I would have driven there instantly. But they are not 'straight' in how they say things, they are full of subterfuge and indirectness and in effect, pushing it away or not wanting to do it. THAT 'energy' permiates the whole of their mood. That or worse.

Their loyalty is to being corporate employees who pretend to be Doctors for scammiong formula organizations of money-first, and money period.

While letting other Birds die or killing them themselves when no money or not enough money is there for them'. They are money *****s, and yes, I respect that, as much as I respect any other 'never a straight answer' *****.

So, for now, I will do my weary best with the Birds I have, and then return to trying to move and organize myself for moveing and to getting my work done tp pay my bills, and to careing for those present Birds which come to me one way or another, but I did ask the one place to remove my name, so hopefully I can have some sanity now...!

My rant...

As I sit here, young four or five pound Duck has climbed into the sleeve of my lond underwear shirt. His tiail is in my armpit and his bill is at my wrist. He is sleeping and very happy. we had not tried this before, but as I was trying to get some e-mail done, and to visit "Pigeon Talk" he/she was anxiously staying on top a small low table, and was frustrated with how hee/she was not with me. So I picked them up and caarried them into my office ans set them on my lap, where, nuzzleing under the front of my long sleeve stretch cotton shirt, they just wiggled their way "up" untill they were actually stretching out my left sleve! They seem VERY very contented in there, and sleeping soundly.

Oh, sigh...

Love to all...

Rambley, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for explaining. 

What is actually worrying me is that yellow urates are a sign liver damage when accompanied by poor droppings but they are also associated with Ornithosis, as are the weepy swollen eyes and loose green droppings. You said that there was itching and this is another symptom. So are moist discoloured wattles.

I have never dealt with a case of Ornithosis myself, but I understand that there would be some evidence of respiratory problems, sneezing or rales.

Please take precautions to protect your own health, just in case.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,


Thank you...

In fact, my knuckles are cracking now from washing my hands so much every day for the last two months...Lol as hey say. I never had cracked knuckles before in my life. So, that means I should be careful about that now, since this represents a good point--of-entry for bacteria or Viruses, where usually I never cared if something got on my hands...I'd just wash them well when I was done.

Who knows, it may indeed be Ornithosis.

I know the look of "this" kind of poo, now, too. I actually have another Young Bird who has the same looking poos as Mr. sore Eyes.

Now, today, I got a call first thing this morning, from the fellow who runs "Foys"...

They have a very cool deal (for which this was my first time trying it) where you can send in a couple Table Spoon fulls of poo, and they will look at it in a Lab and run some tests and call you to tell you what they could find. This costs a very reasonable $20.00.

I had sent in some samples from a different Pigeon who I know has something wrong with him, which I thought might be worms of some kind, whose poos are of a distinct dull-green 'snake' like aspect with no white and often extra water...the 'snakes' tend to break instead of being continuous, with few lengths unbroken longer than say 1/4inch at most and usually not that much...and it came back "Hamepholis" but that may not be the correct spelling. Pennicillin was said to be the recommended regimin.
I will try looking that up on the net here in a minute, I was just too buisy all day to do it yet.

So, while I had them on the 'phone, I ordered some Pennicillin, some Baytril, and some special antibiotic Eye Cream-Ointment...and had them send it 'Next-day-Air' so it should be here tomorrow...

I will also, tomorrow, send off some poo samples, which will be less in quantity than they prefer, from Mr. sore Eyes' Cage, to see what they can tell about that.

I am fairly careful in my way of protecting myself and the Birds from eachother's germs.

At least I never saw anyone come down with anything...different or in addition to whatever they had when they came in...

I may have gotten something from them a time or two over the years...but overall I am fairly careful, more careful now than I was in the beginning, certainly.

I Bleach Soak everything in the way of little Bowls or impliments, (10 or 15 percent Bleach, the rest Water, in a large plastic Bucket) and have my little local "Fluff-and-Fold" Laundry service ( cheaper than one can do in the machines one's self) do extra hot and extra long washes with extra Bleach of all the Towells and cloths which have been around the Birds. 

Now, if from Birds I know to have been ill with something possibly contageous, I simply throw away those cloths which had become soild, and get new ones at Thrift Stores...mostly I line everything with three layers of curved up on the ends, of Paper Towells on top of one or two folded hand-towells or medium sized Terrycloth Towells, and then just throw the paper towells away of course at the end of the day and put new ones in. 

Heating Pads I cover in a large enough Plastic Bag to keep them clean.

Anyway...so many facets to all this, and so many interesting experiences.

As you know, nothing pleases one more than to see a successful recovery, or a Baby raised well and assimilated into their feral or wild brethrin's compaby...the challenge, here in Las Vegas especially, for me anyway, is to be able to equate distinct enough for me to note them, of symptoms, and qualities of poos, with probable illnesses and their theor means of address.

This is hard to do without being shown, having pictures, or at least having some source from which to read which will offer adequate descriptions and pragmatic evaluations so far as they may be possible. Certainly access to those proceedures which a Lab may offer, will be very useful and more certain.

I have to move soon, so I must taper off now for working with Birds, but I did obtain a fine Microscope which arrived today, and in time, maybe I can find out about and learn, some basic Microscopic evaluations of poo samples, to be able to do some useful things.

That hard part has been finding that kind of information.

Too, now that I know "Foys" is there, and reasonably quick about their telephone call to inform of their findings, I can make use of their service now and then when it seems a good recourse.

Thanks all for your help and contributions!

Best wishes...Happy Healthy Birds...!

Good luck all...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh!

Post Script...

What is the regimin known to some of you for addressing 'Ornithosis'?

The bad thing about whatever-this-is, with these two Birds ( 30 feet apart, never seen eachother even) is that neither wishes to eat, and neither wishes to drink more than a tiny sip maybe twice-a-day.

I shall very much welcome them getting their appitites interests in drinking returned...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, 


I did a little looking - 

ORNITHOSIS - PNEUMONIA : caused by bacteria Microbacterium Multiforme and found in pigeons and other domestic or wild birds and animals. Symptoms are described previously under Colds, further symptoms are matting of the eyes, constant nasal discharge, hunched up appearance, raised feathers on rump, damp matted patches upon wing butts (eye wiping or scratching) constant sneezing, highly contagious. Similar to Psittacosis but more common and less harmful to man. Veterinary diagnosis required to differentiate from Psittacosis (Parrot Fever - affecting Psittacine family) and treatment not recommended. Damage to all vital organs, possible blindness or impaired vision, weakness remains. Cured birds never make satisfactory racers or breeders and may remain as carriers. Disinfect loft and all utensils, blow torch disinfect again and limewash. Extremely difficult to eradicate and may reoccur. Destroy and burn all infected birds, completely isolate all others into fresh air aviary quarantine. Essentially a filth disease or lack of due observation. Most likely cause cross infection from wild birds (starlings, sparrows, feral wild stock pigeons). 


I do not think this is it - he does not have any sneezing or rumpled Feathers at the small of his back or rump...he is actively preening several times a day, and stands on one foot often. He shows no Nasal discharge, no damp or matted patches on Wings...

He does have a mrked lack of interest in eating or drinking, and so does the other Bird I have here whose poos look this way...but whose Eyes are perfect.

My original thought, was that he got something of an eye infection initially, which occasioned him to begin to starve. Pigeons around here, if they are unable to forrage and eat, will almost allways have one or two kinds of poos...symptomatic so far as I know of illness which is taking advantage of their lessened immune systems ability to keep them at bay...

They will have poops which look like this one's do, where there is a little bright green slime with a chalky yellow surround, or, different from this one, being just chalky yellow fluid which saturates the cloths they stand on quickly instead of laying on the surface.

The latter one responds very well to 'Dimetridazole' or other anti-Trichomoniasis sulfas, and the former one does not.

Now, I have seen his kinds of poos several times before over the years, from injured Birds allways, who because of injury could not fly or forrage, without anyone ever having any problems with their Eyes.

So...I will read some more...the link to where I am reading, is...

http://www.boglinmarsh.fsnet.co.uk/azdis1.htm

Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas

PS-

I just read through the entire list, and I do not find a mention of his symptoms, nor those of the other Bord who makes poos of the same appearence...so...more looking somewhere else...


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,

First of all, from what you've said in your last few posts, it sounds like you are running yourself ragged. I notice that you are on the board and posting at all hours of the day and night, and in your line of work, lack of sleep can be very dangerous and lead you to injure yourself. You will not be able to help any of your rescues at all, if you are laid up yourself. Okay...end of motherly lecture..LOL  Just don't forget to take care of yourself while you are taking care of all your little patients!  

Okay...real reason for posting: What you are doing Phil, is way beyond the scope of my involvement but I noticed that you seem to be very interested in droppings as an indicator of disease. Here is a link that you can check out. There are several catagories of types of diarrhea, and types of droppings that you can click on that will tell you possible illnesses and options for treatment. There are even pictures of each type of dropping to illustrate, so you may find this helpful.

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html 

Okay, hope this helps....

Linda


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Linda, 

Thank you...


You are welcome to give me Motherly advise or lectures any time..!  

No one is ever too old (and certainly I am not!) for the wisdom of one being kindly given...and you are right, too...!

Just for now, there is nothing I can do about it, but long days, short sleep and the tasks at hand.

I removed my name from the wall of the all-night-vet-clinic a couple days ago...so...that hurt, but I had to elect to do so. This will effectively end those referrals or drop offs which I have been recieving and ministering to. I never wished for or intended to have more than the occasional Bird, now and then...

I am indeed beyond my capacities, but...I wish to give my best to my small Charges who are here, and for them, there is no alternative at all unless I do.

So...big sigh...

My computer is allways on and sits on my desk here in my Office, so it is conveniently there any time I sit down, and, in fact, is the only place to sit down. So, if I do rest a moment, it tends to be here in this chair.

Thank you for the link!

I looked into it and will look into it some more.

Another, I visited earlier, showing some poo images and having descriptions of symptoms, is 

http://www.jedds.com/MySolution/DiseasesChooseASymptom.asp

So far, none of these have images representing the poos I am seeing, though they do show images of poo kinds associated with respective illnesses which I have seen in the past on the ground amid the feral Birds.

Now, "poos"...

Overall, getting a Bird, there seems to be only a few things one may look at to wonder what is ailing them if they do seem ill.

One may look into their Throat, one may look at their vent, one may look at their eyes, and one may look at their plumage generally for places the Feathers may suggest bruising or injury, one may look at their little nostrils for discharge or wet, one may look at their Beak-Nubs for wetness or inflamation, and, one may look at their poops.

Untill a few days ago I did not know "Foys" would so an examination of sent-in fecal samples, so, that is very good to know now. None of the Vets here were even contenders for such things...so...

Otherwise, what else may one look at in order to try and asertain the illness or malady a Pigeon may have?



When I am moved and in a new and more spacious place, I will resume my involvement in all this, in a better and more disciplined way somehow. But I can only hope to allow it on a small scale which will not exhaust me.
With the same intention I had originally which formed even as most of ours has, in the innocence of likeing these Birds, and of simply wishing to help those of them which I may find incidentally or of my local Wild Flock, who have no recourse beside my intervention, other than to decease.

Once I am done with those Birds I have here now, I shall give all of this a rest for some while, except for any who come on their own to my door from the Wild ones outside...or, I suppose, if someone calls or brings one...which should not occur but as a definite rarity from now on. I cannot bring myself to turn one away, but, if no one calls, then that I can live with.

Lol...

Meaning, my name has at least been retired from receptionist's wall, at the all night clinic place...

For now, I have no way out but to take a breath, and to plod on ahead...these several Birds have no where else to go, and no one else in this city that anyone has ever heard of, will do anything for them, so I can not hand any of them off to anyone else to care for or convelese...

There is nothing else to do but to plod on, and do my best for these Birds on hand...

Tomorrow, new poos to "Foys"!

And more stolen minutes reading...while I await their reply.


Best, 

Phil
el ve


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phil,

I saw the descriptions of Ornithosis that you mention before posting and I also checked Chevita's site, but there was *much* more detailed information in the reference books that I have at home.

I will scan them and e-mail them to you.


Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi all,

Just a few things. First I wondered what the name of this book might be? It sounds like a good resource to have.

Re: bird burrito, I don't know that there is any one correct way, but more a concept of how to immobilize wings when necessary. My burrito looks more like a bathrobe with collar up around the neck, looks like you've done something similar with your set-up. I only snug @ shoulders and let their feet/legs alone. The loose and bulky "leftover" towel is usually enough to make a non-issue there. Then again, as Fred mentioned, sometimes they are
just on my thigh w/left hand on back and down the hatch w/right hand.

The canker issue and poo. The poo charts and wonderful color photos are
helpful, but can one ever guarantee that the bird has only one health issue?
And if there were overlaying issues, wouldn't that change the "classic mode"
appearance?! Just a thought. 

When I first viewed the canker in my birds
throat, there were no spots, no mucous, no cottage cheesy appearance.
Instead of these more classic symptoms that are frequently described, I started to notice a little white on the edge of one of the pairs' beaks. So of course I started engine searching. Within one or two days of that, Harriett
started opening and closing her beak when I'd talk to her. At first I thought 
she was playing w/me, then I thought better on subject and looked in her 
mouth. I noticed again, none of classic symptoms, rather a "yellowing" area
of tissue @ very back of throat. The tissue consistency looked the same as
the pink areas around it, just that it was starting to have a yellowy appear-
ance as opposed to pink.
Also, behavior which indicated that she
might have a "sore throat". That's when I summized that she had canker.
The first treatment brought both birds back to a normal appearance and 
behavior. 

When later, I brought the two in for tests, the doctor was looking inside the mouth
and saw little tiny white dots @ the back of the throat, yet, none of the other sysmptoms which I had noticed with the first round were present with the second bout of it. I think you see what I mean here. Knowledge, 
common sense, maybe a little intuition.

Anyway, as Lin mentioned, we can't run ourselves ragged trying to help.
You probably would have your hands full with just the birds coming your way
thru your own travels, let alone helping the clinic out. Might be just as 
well that you've taken your name down for the time being. Best of luck with
your patient (s) and I hope that it proves to not be serious.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, all...


Actually, I am enjoying how this is a valuable discussion in many ways and sidelights...

True, one may only hope not to become involved in what will oblige one to be come run ragged...!

But as we all know, Life can reward us with things to occupy our interests sometimes, and sometimes more than we would have prefered.

Got in my 'Next-Day' meds from 'Foys', but business appointments this morning distracted me from remembering that I had intended to send off new poo-samples today to 'Foys' for Mr. Eyes' and my edifications...so, Good Lord willing, maybe my memory will remember to do that tomorrow morning.

But, today's Mail I rec'd the 'Baytril', a smallish rubber-topped Bottle of Pennicillin, and some Official Antibacterial Eye Ointment in a little teeny tube. I shall go and apply some now, and soon, my acquaintance hopes to be here to assist me to do a tube-feed, which will have some meds ('Baytril' I suppose? ) in them to commence the ( as long as I can find someone to help hold him tomorrow and so on, for the) daily regimin of getting him nourished and medicated...

Bye for now...!

And yes, how we might make at least decent guesses about the illnesses or combinateions of them we are confronting, is valuable in many of these occasions where there is no Vet or other more potentially informed source for us to appeal to.
The neglect of not electing the correct medicine in the correct dosages is a risk which at least is offset, by those occasions in which the right medince in the right dosage is elected. The alternative, while more certain, of doing nothing, does not have the advantage of seeing them Fly off a month later or what...so...God's speed all...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi fp,



> wondered what the name of this book might be? It sounds like a good resource to have


.

I use a combination of reference books so that I can get a fuller picture. The main ones I use are "The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health Management" by Dr Colin Walker, "Fit to Win" by Dr Wim Peters, "Cough & Colds : Croaks & Canker by Frank Harper and "Problem Droppings Explained", also by Frank Harper. The "Fit to Win" book is the one that goes into the most detail. 



> The canker issue and poo. The poo charts and wonderful color photos are
> helpful, but can one ever guarantee that the bird has only one health issue?
> And if there were overlaying issues, wouldn't that change the "classic mode"
> appearance?! Just a thought.


Very true. As we build up our own experience we are probably able to see more clearly which group of symptoms represents the main condition that brought a specific rescue down and which are overlaying issues.

I have never identified canker by the subclinical symptoms that you describe, by the time my canker rescues fell into my hands it was so developed as to be unmissable. Fortunately I have never had canker in my avairy. However, Mary (maryco) caught the canker at the white dot stage when she examined Pearl's mouth.

The problem with reference books is that they are aimed at fanciers and can rely on similar symptoms appearing in a number of pigeons for diagnosis, or on sacrificing one pigeon for post mortem examination or on the owner's familiarity with the pigeon's characteristics, diet etc. As rescuers our job is much more difficult because we have no history and no comparisons which is why we have to rely quite heavily on intuition and our own hands on experience.


This site can be a wonderful source of reference because people describe the symptoms they have seen before they know what the illness is. If you have a moment look at Sidi's thread "Ill-Fated Pigeon" which turned out to be Ornithosis and probably other injuries. It is case histories like these that I find the most helpful and that don't often appear in the reference books.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Once I am done with those Birds I have here now, I shall give all of this a rest for some while, except for any who come on their own to my door from the Wild ones outside...or, I suppose, if someone calls or brings one...which should not occur but as a definite rarity from now on. I cannot bring myself to turn one away, but, if no one calls, then that I can live with.


I think you were very brave to post at the vet's in the first place! It is something that I would like to do one day, but only if I have the time and the resources available to cope with the referrals. At the moment the casualties that I find (and the few brought to me by friends and colleagues) take up most of my time.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, 


Well, it has been one 'Nantucket Sleigh Ride', I will say.

I learn better, and faster, and think better, and can make better decisions generally, if I am not overtired and overdistracted...

I am looking forward to that state of being!

As you know also, these matters involve many decisions, and various difficult choices sometimes...in different ways, also of course.

One of my Wild Flock Pigeons, in January, had somehow driven his upper Beak through the center of his lower Beak. I had seen this one time before, and it had gone bad when I and a Vet tried getting it back out, I had consented to the use of an anaesthesia, and I will not tend to do that again for anything...so..I had some ideas, this time for seeing if I could get it to go better, but it was soon night and I needed a hand, so, I found a listing for an all-night Vet clinic not too far from my little home, so I called and went there.

One of their techs helped me, other techs were nice, a lady Vet ( they have several vets there on different nights or shifts) was nice and came in to help but the tech and me had it done in a jiffy with a good outcome and no anaestesia or fussings...and had one palpably relieved Bird, too. This was one of those Birds who knew we were helping him and was amazingly co-operative and tolerant of the proceedure and the handleing. This Bird had come to me in effect, by presenting itself and then walking inside. Maybe it was one I had raised years ago or helped before for something...who knows...

So, we all talked a little and I found out they had no one for bring-ins or when people called with having found a Wild Bird of any kind, so I said "Well, as long as you know I do not have any damned federal or state licence and that if I get a Bird where one is supposed TO have one I will do my damndest to find a License Holder and hand it over to them. I will take your Sparrows and Pigeons and Starlings or orphan Babys of any kind and so on, so, any thing comes up, just call me." and I left my Number. It made them very happy, since if they did get a carry-in they just euthenised it soon as the people left...or turned it away instead.

Anyway, I got slammed...(restaurant slang for the joint filling up !) 

So...

Golly...

These Birds...


They are such wonderful sensitive resourceful and remarkable Creatures...and I admire them immensely.

It makes me very hapy to know this List exists, and has so many careing and cool people on it heling eachother to recognise different things about Pigeons, and to learn and do and experience these Birds in various ways of interacting with them and careing for them as companions.

Six Pigeons, one young Hummer, and one young Duck all have their eyes on me as I type. I just looked around at each of them, and of course, they all were looking at me looking at them...some sleepy heads too among them...includeing mine...the little sounds of preening, the odd or occasional vocalization or 'mooing'...the delicate noises of someone pecking their Seeds...all these things are so familiar and even constant to my senses, it is hard to imagine being without them.


G'night...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> Very true. As we build up our own experience we are probably able to see more clearly which group of symptoms represents the main condition that brought a specific rescue down and which are overlaying issues.
> ...


I read this post a few days ago, but wanted to read again before asking questions. I ended up looking up posts that Sidi had made to see if there 
were other threads about the same bird. Thanks for the link to blood feathers 'cause I wondered about that same issue in one of my birds. Fortunately, pulling the feather solved the problem, but I did want to know 
more and wasn't inputting the right words in the search engine to pull this 
link up. 

Did Sidi's bird ever get diagnosed w/canker as well or only the Orntithosis. It
seems as though he's describing canker in his last thread on this bird. So if
this bird was on Meds for the Ornithosis and the Canker was not being treated, does that mean that it eventually succumbed to Canker and not the 
Ornithosis? How did the excessive bleeding tie in with the two conditions or did it not?

Do you know what medication was given for the ornithosis? I've read that 
Doxycyline is the best.

Thanks, 

fp

PS-- Also, Maryco's white dots--there is another condition called salivary stones, is there a way to know which it is or do you automatically treat for 
Canker in Ferals and then, if not corrected move to looking at Salivary Stone
issues?

thanks in advance for your time....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...the update...


He is so BEAUTIFUL...! 

Well, turns out, with all the swelling and so on now long gone, that he is blind in both eyes from that infection having done so much damage before I ever got him to address it.

He looks now like any other vivid, handsome blue-band Rock-Dove, sleeps on one foot, preens all the time, normal everything, maybe still on the ragged end of recovery from the illness, but for how one eye is sunken deeply with puckered lids, and the other is with normal lids but the eye-ball itself is very cloudy and shows no Pupil to speak of.

He drinks nicely on his own if I hold the little Water Bowl up to him, and he makes drinking head gestures if I ask him "Would you like a drink of Water?", but does not eat on his own so I am still tube feeding him every day or twice-a-day which he kind of protests somewhat, but I tend to win out. I should feed him more but I have been so harried that the once-a-day anyway has been something at least...

So...(s)he is gentle, strong, if a little light weight yet, handsome Pigeon with fine perfect vivid feathers...who is very strong, good Wings and Feets, who is blind...

Will he learn to eat by himself?

I have been TRYING, every day now for some time to encourage it...god I hope he can get the knack...a few times it almost happenned...so we shall see. No reason I can think of for it not to happen...

If so, or even if not 'so'...is there anyone here who might wish to adopt him?

I will be finding it very very hard to keep him, especially now that it looks like I will have to be moveing to parts unknown very soon maybe...or I may have to remove to much smaller and less accomidating quarters even.

Please, if anyone here may be willing to adopt him, let me know...!

(S)he is a total sweetie...


Thanks, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Phil,

Yes, the blind bird will and can learn to eat and drink on its own .. you need to be very consistent with where food and water is and keep it exactly in the same place each day.

I have a blind bird that has been with me for some time and I've gradually introduced her to larger caging to the point she has a lovely space and does quite well on her own. If you need to send your blind bird my way, then please e-mail me to make arrangements ..

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


You are an Angel...thank you.

I will let you know.

I started this morning, opening his Beak and putting three or four or two or however many I have between my thumb tip and index finget tip of Seeds..and he is VERY enthusiastic. He is a-l-m-o-s-t pecking, but at least for now, I will do this to ensure that today and tonight, and tomorrow and so on, untill he gets the drift OF pecking blind, that he will have eaten a more normal amout finally, and we can augment that with the 'tube' if I feel like it...which I will do, too.

But he is really likeing the easy ( now) 'pry' and Seed 'pop' and is globally gesturing his approvals and interests. If I ask him now, "Say bub, how about some more Seeds?" he starts moveing his head as if gently pecking.

What a sweetie he (or she!) is...no big resistance to this Beak-pry feeding method!

He is into it...!



Golly...

Thanks Terry!


I might be moveing very soon...so I will now sleep MUCH better knowing if I can not reasonably keep him ( or her) that you would take them in and let them have the best Life they could.


By for now, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, after a while of doing small sessions of "Beak-pry, Seed-pop" he was starting to realy like having some real Seeds in his Crop and was making gestures of gentle peckings, he was not protesting me gently prying open his Beak to pop Seeds into it, so, seeing his pecking moves, I held up the Seed Bowl and he began gently eating on his own.

So we did that another several simes off and on, then with the variation of me setting the Seed Bowl on a Tuna can to raise it up in front of him so I could rest my arm. He did very well.

I can't wait to see him putting some weight on finally...and I know he feels the same way!

Anyway...I am so glad he is eating now with only a little encouragement and help...gently pecking his Breakfast as we speak...and in his Cage, the first (just one so far) 'real' normal-sized poop yet, (instead of tiny dabs of not much,) from yesterday's seed-pops! - he has kept a clean vent all this time, and he/she and their cage have no odor of any kind. I am so glad...

Yea...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...has been eating on his own since last posting, doing nicely at it. I have also seen him eating the Seeds which he has knocked to the floor of his Cage, which amazes me. He seems to kind of know 'where' things are somehow, and also, knows that he can indicate to me if he is thirsty. i will ask him if he wants some water, and kinda like Horses do, he will nod a certain way. if he does not want any water, he does not nod.

What a sweetie...

Starting to put on a little weight now, he no longer feels so 'light' as he did before...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news update Phil .. sounds like things are going the right way!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ahhhhh..thanks Terry, yes...I am so relieved and glad.

This Bird also has come to like 'hugs', cupped hands on their sides, over their wings. And little preeninggs about their back of the head and neck and shoulders. I think too he/she appreciated the tube feeds then Beak-pry Seed pops, and while they did not enjoy those rituals, they never protested being handled otherwise...and I am sure, understood it was benificial.

It is curious how their movements now resemble classically the movements of the head which we know from Blind People, there is something universal to this I suppose...when we are pecking, I find myself thinking peripherally of Stevie Wonder, then realized why...

Gaining weight now...more to go...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just thought to mention...

(S)he is doing well, gaining weight, eating nicely on their own as they please...making decent looking poos...Feathers are perfect and vivid and all around excellently nice...

Could likely fly very well now if not for being blind...Enjoys cupped hand 'hugs' and being pretend preened around the neck and head...

Very friendly and calm disposition...

No 'mooings' or sounds yet...so far, a quiet Bird...


Phil
Las Vegas


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