# injured pigeon - gangrene!



## pesya

hello all!

2 days ago i had found a pigeon at my work that has been limping around for according to a co-worker a couple of weeks. turns out he has a broken / damaged wing that is drooping slightly, another wing that appears to have been trimmed somehow (this is a ferral pigeon too, so this is quite odd), and it appears that he has gangrene on one of his middle toes. i'm worried that the gangrene is spreading (there's black dotting around his entire foot), but he is so skinny and malnourished that i'm not certain he'd make it through anesthesia. i had gone to numerous vets that refused to care for him as he's a wild bird, and without as much as a look at his feet, the humane society told me that he should be euthanized. this seems a bit drastic to me considering he seems fine except for those two injuries, and he's eating and drinking which is a good sign. i think most people feel that as a pigeon he's a pest to society, which is surprising coming from the hs. 

long story short, i was hoping to get some advice on the matter. also, how would i go about cleaning him? i think he might have some fungus on the edges of his beak and his feathers need to be cleaned up.

i highly appreciate all the help.. thanks in advance!
pesya


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## pesya

Also, i'm not so sure he'll ever be able to fly again with his damaged wing. can feral birds be domesticated?


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## sky tx

pesya--you should have done some thinking before you picked it up.
Can a feral pigeon be domesicated?
Sounds like you have "just" domesticated it.
Keep it warm-give it feed and water-you now have you "Second" 24/7 job.


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## Pidgey

Yep, he'd rather be domesticated as not, usually. ESPECIALLY when they're ailin'.

Can you post pictures?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

It's not likely gangrene per se on his toe, but it might be avascular necrosis due to a string injury or something else. Sometimes, they even have black toenails. Anyhow, a picture of that would be better than a description. If you can take pictures but can't post them, send them to: [email protected]

Pidgey


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## pesya

i'll take some pictures asap. unfortunately i think you're right, he won't seem to feed unless i hand feed him.. this is my first pigeon, so obviously i have no clue.. i've had chickens and other small domesticated birds, so i have some experience but i wasn't sure how quickly they take to people. and it must be avascular necrosis as he had a little piece of twine wrapped around his toes.. i managed to remove the remaining twine and spare his other toes.


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## doveone52

Well, good for you to have picked him up! Nonreleasable ferals can make as good a pet as anyone and sometimes just seem born to it!
You can hopefully fatten him up, heal his foot and have a friend for life. You can bet he will be grateful. Be sure and get some pics of his poops as they are a good indicator of pigeon health. Can't wait to hear how it goes and good for you not to automatically heed the advice to put him down.


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## pesya

apologies for the quality. his poop has been a little more formed and less liquidy before that shot.. he pooped out of fear 
and in the second shot you can see his left wing is cut and the right one is kind of awkward. also note the poop on his tail.. i need to figure out how to bathe him without hurting him.


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## Dobato

Pesya, thanks for helping this little guy out. Yes, as Pidgey mentions that toe has avascular necrosis, not gangrene, meaning it is dead and will in time fall off of its own accord, you do not have to worry about it or try and remove it yourself, meaning no anesthesia. Also we need to get a good close up shot of his mouth area, as the "fungus you mention, could be an infection they get called "canker" caused by a protozoa. He is missing his left primary flights, so he would be grounded, but over the coming weeks he will molt the broken/cut feathers and new ones will grow to replace them. You can fill a small, shallow pan with some warm water, hold him by his sides and place him in and give him a good rinsing, blot him up well with some Kleenex/paper towel after and you should be good to go. When he calms down, or overnight, I would not mind seeing what his regular droppings look like, what are you feeding him and where are you keeping him?

Had another look at the foot and there is some swelling, so it may not be a bad idea to run a course of antibiotics on him for 7-10 days, if you don't have the ones Reti mentions, and live near a major urban area, a good many tropical fish stores have antibiotics that can be used on birds (including what would be needed, Metronidazole, if he happens to have canker), let us know.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Reti

I am pretty sure he has string on his toe. That toe cannot be saved anymore, it will fall off most likely. Check carefully, if you have, with a magnifying glass to see if you can see the string of hair. 
Also from the pic I think his wing feathers were pulled out and they will grow back, just takes time. 
Do you have any antibiotics on hand like Cipro or Amoxicillin?

Yes, pigeons can be domesticated, some more than others.

Thank you so much for helping this poor little guy.

Reti


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## Pidgey

Homely lookin' little spud, ain't 'e? How could ANYONE not help but love that face?

Yep, got a plethora of small (hopefully) problems to deal with. We need some medications going in him, looks like. I'd add Metronidazole (Flagyl) to the ones listed above. If you can tell us where you basically are, we might be able to help you better as different places have different availability of resources and such.

Pidgey


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## pesya

unfortunately i don't have any antibiotics.. i've been keeping him in a large movers' box (the kind you can get from fed ex etc., it has ample room for him. i keep it open of course, and use newspaper as lining and change it about twice a day. i've been feeding him sunflower seeds mainly. i fed him a mix of granola, graham crackers and peanuts when i first found him as it was all i had. i'll hop by the pet store and get him some corn feed, i hear that's what is recommended. 

and there's definitely some string there. i removed most of it, but there's still some tied to his dead toe, which i wasn't sure if i should remove. it's on there pretty tight, too. it's suuuuucchh a relief hearing that his finger will fall off. he can't seem to stand on it, like it's too painful for him, and he won't walk around at all. he'll be in the same spot for long periods of time. i've crushed up a little bit of ibuprophen in his water so that should help his pain.. hopefully that's ok.

thank you sooooooo much for all of the help. i'll try and clean him in a little bit...


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## Dobato

We are roughly are you located so we can try and direct you where you can get some antibiotics, now that you mention he does not want to put weight on it, along with the swelling, I think it would be good to get some meds into him, sooner, rather than later, don't for get to post up a photo of his mouth area and even inside if you can.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

Take the ibuprofen away--without knowing exactly how much you're giving him, you can kill him. Ibuprofen can be given, but only in extremely tiny MEASURED quantities and we only do it when indicated. And it's not indicated here.

There are some things that require antibiotics. When they're needed, they're usually needed badly and he kinda' has that look about him.

Pidgey


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## pesya

well i'm just outside of san francisco, california. i ended up getting him the vita pigeon & dove feed. i'll take another picture later tonight.. he's really finding it hard to stand on his foot, so i think you're right about the antibiotics. the pet shop by me is closed, so i'll try and get a hand on those tomorrow. thanks for all the help! i am so glad i didn't listen to the humane society.. i'm so disappointed in them.


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## Dobato

Pesya, call around to these tropical fish stores and ask if they have:

1.) Triple-Sulfa by API or Trisulfa by Mardel
2.) Metroplex by Seachem (this med I know is 100% Metronidazole) or any Metronidazole (but it has to be pure 100% Metronidazole)

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&biw=135...fish+stores+san+francisco&fp=6e2d980571913d3f

These are the meds this little guys needs right now, once you get them I will help you with how to use them you will also need a 1cc syringe, the kind without a needle attached.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## pesya

i'll get to those stores and get some meds asap!


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## Pidgey

I don't like the color of those urates (the part of the droppings that should be white). That color probably indicates "biliverdinuria", which means biliverdin (a green pigment) in the urine (thus: urates). That's indicative of kidney disease here more than likely. That's the biggest reason right now why we need those antibiotics in fairly short order. 

Actually, the diameter of the dropping string ain't great either--it's a bit larger than I'd like, possibly indicating other problems. Best of luck.

Pidgey


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## pesya

awe  i'll definitely get on top of that as soon as possible. what about his beak? the vet tech said it was some sort of fungus, but it wasn't "that one diesease" that's going around, with white secretions (trichomoniasis?). do i need to treat his little beak? he seems to like it when i pet that part..


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## Dobato

Agree with Pidgey, don't like the coloring to his droppings, the beak area looks to be of a younger bird, maybe not in the greatest heath, to me no obvious signs of growths. Yes, you need to treat with both meds, the coloring of the droppings indicate there could be a possible canker infection lower down in his GI treat, plus Metronidazole does not just treat for canker, it also has use as an antibiotic, that anaerobes are sensitive to, so best he is on both meds together right now, please do try and get the meds for him today.

Karyn


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## pesya

hey guys, i called a few places, and one guy has the Metronidazole, which he uses in-store only, and whether he sells it to me or not depends on how much of it i need.. so i was wondering how much i should get. how long would this take to clear up? also he seems to be the only guy that still carries it in town at 100% ("probably", as he said). they're turning it into a prescription only medicine :-( and it would take me too long to get an appointment for a check-up as my town only has 2 bird doctors, and i'm sure all the ones in sf are all booked up.


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## Pidgey

About 200 to 500 milligrams, total.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

That's because we'd dose him at about 200 milligrams per kilogram of bird per day. I figure he probably weighs about 200 grams, which is 20% of a kilogram, so about 40 milligrams per day for... let's say a week, which would be about 280 milligrams. He could weigh more, he could weigh less, we might go a tad longer... thus the range.

Pidgey


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## Dobato

Pesya, I agree with Pidgey, 500mg should do, strange in a big place like SF no one has Metroplex, how did you make out with the Tripe-Sulfa?

Karyn


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## pesya

i made out great, actually. i called a few places and ended up with one store that had triple sulfa and another for the 100% metronidazole. turns out the first place i went to ended up having both! i got 5 grams of the metro and a box of api's triple sulfa. is there a way i can just feed him through his normal water intake or must i use a syringe? and how much should i administer of the triple sulfa? also, since he is so thin, and there's no way i can check his exact weight, is there a way i can overdose him on the stuff? or should 40ml be safe for sure? i can still feel his sternum..


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## Dobato

Pesya, here are the instructions for mixing and giving both meds, they can be giving at the same time, twice a day.

Get a shot-glass and place 2 1/2 scoops of the Metroplex (Metronidazole) into into it, then to this add 5mL of honey or pancake syrup, stir well, let sit 20 minutes, stir again and you will have a 50mg/mL suspension to dose with, the 5mL is equal to 1 cooking teaspoon (it must be a cooking teaspoon not a common flatware spoon, or use the 1cc syringe 5 times). Give this little guy 0.20cc (10mg, this is the second line one a 1cc syringe, for reference this will be about 4 drops) and the same every 12 hours for the next 7 days and well reassess then. Stir very well each time you draw a dose and refrigerate between use.

For the Triple-Sulfa:

Each small, individual packet in the API box contains 1000mg of pure Triple-Sulfa med, I want you open one of these packs and dump it on something the glossy magazine cover again. Divide the little pile of Triple Sulfa (TS) evenly in half so you will now have two piles of 500mg each, use a credit card or a business card, then put other half back in the pack and put away.

I want you to get the shot-glass again, or a very small container and add 10cc of pancake syrup or honey into it, this will be 2 level teaspoons, scrape it all in with your finger (1 teaspoon = 5mL, use a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware teaspoon, as mentioned before). Now with the half pack of the Triple-Sulfa you have set aside (500mg), add this into the 10mL of pancake syrup/honey and stir very well in, cover and let sit for 15 minutes, stir very well again and it will be ready for use. You now have a 5% TS suspension (50mg/mL) to dose with.

You will want to give 0.20cc (second line of the 1cc syringe, roughly 4 drops)of the TS every 12 hours as well, this will be 10mg. Again, make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med to give a bird each time you use it and keep it in the refrigerator between use. Just gently open the bird's mouth and place 1-2 drops at a time in the front of his mouth and allow him to tongue it down

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

If this little guy is not eating well, you will have to hand feed, here is a link on how to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

You can feed for now 20 pieces of thawed and warmed frozen green peas, will post up some other things you can feed later.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## pesya

I've administered both with success! hooorah! we'll see how he does..


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## Pidgey

And thus the race begins. Some of us here have been through this ordeal many, many times. Start counting (sometimes you have to watch real close to get this) how many breaths he takes in a minute and post it. Normal is about 30 breaths per minute. In some bacterial infections that cause hemolysis (destruction of red blood cells), they end up breathing at a lot higher rate. This is something that you can watch over several days time if it's high and they're on antibiotic therapy and you can see it start coming down slowly after a few days if the antibiotic administered is doing the job.

Pidgey


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## pesya

well, so far so good! the little guy (we named him Zeek), has thinner poops now, and it seems like his urates are getting whitter. i put down a heating pad under his newspaper and he's always on his belly now! it's so adorable. also i've noticed that he's started to groom himself, specifically the wing that is molting, which is a good sign as well! yaaaay. his toe's the same as it's been, and the swelling hasn't gone down too much yet. it's too early to tell. i will post as i go along! thank you all again so much for all the help. i wouldn't have been able to do it without you.


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> well, so far so good! the little guy (we named him Zeek), has thinner poops now, and it seems like his urates are getting whitter. i put down a heating pad under his newspaper and he's always on his belly now! it's so adorable. also i've noticed that he's started to groom himself, specifically the wing that is molting, which is a good sign as well! yaaaay. his toe's the same as it's been, and the swelling hasn't gone down too much yet. it's too early to tell. i will post as i go along! thank you all again so much for all the help. i wouldn't have been able to do it without you.


Preening (grooming) is always a very good sign they are feeling better, it may take a while for the swelling in the foot to come down, so be patient, the rest sounds good. Glad Zeek found his way into your hands.

Karyn


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## pesya

Hey guys, i figured i should take a snap of his beak, as it seems to have a white-yellow "protrusion" growing. It seemed like baby feathers were coming out of it yesterday, and they fell off easily (i touched the area). is this normal? i'm worried he might be getting cysts as one of you mentioned earlier..










also don't mind the mess in the background :s


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## Reti

have you tried to see if they come off? Don't force it if it seems stuck but maybe wiping with moistened cotton in some warm water will remove them.

Reti


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## Dobato

Pesya, try what Reti has suggested, but don't force things, the meds she is on will cover for bacterial and canker issues, but if it is the start of a virus infection they can get around their beaks (it's called pigeon pox and is not contagious to humans, it is pigeon specific, but always wash you hands when handling, as routine hygiene), then this will pass in time and the meds will help any secondary issues from taking hold.

Please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## pesya

well, whatever it is, it ended up coming off very easily. i barely tried pulling it off and it pulled away nicely. it looked like there was a clear string attached to it that was inside his mouth, by the side of his tongue. i wasn't sure what that could be, and made sure to take the one on the other side off as well. he didn't have any trouble holding still for me, so i'm sure it wasn't painful, whatever it was. he seemed happy to be rid of it.

i just realized that i didn't post a pic of his other wing, which i should have done a while ago. he seems to be molting, but i'm not sure if his other wing is useable. i'll post a pic a little later today..


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## Reti

It was probably dried mucus from his mouth. Glad it's off.
If he is molting the feathers will grow back quicker.

Reti


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## pesya

So i have some bad news.. zeek seemed to have been getting better, his urates have turned to white, and he seemed to be in better spirits, but then last night, i noticed that one of his toes on his good foot is getting swollen. i noticed he stepped in his own poop (and have cleaned it off), and he had a cut there from the thread that was wrapped around his foot when i first brought him in. so that must be it, but i'm not sure what to do.. the medicine has worked for his kidney disease, but it hasn't decreased any of the swelling on his bad foot as you can see in these images. i've given him a bath and sanitized his little wound last night as well..




























and as you can see his poop is getting worse! it seemed to be normal last night but when i got back from class this morning, that's what greeted me.


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## Dobato

I am sorry he was going well and has now had a set back, we may need to make a change in medicine. Can you check the fish stores and see if the have this medicine: http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4842, this contains Minocycline which is a drug of choice for these kind of infections. Make sure the he stays well hydrated and you hand-feed him as well, if his appetite is off, while we try and get him back on track.

Karyn


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## pesya

what about his poop though? just keep giving him the same medicine (triple sulfa and metrodiazanole)?


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> what about his poop though? just keep giving him the same medicine (triple sulfa and metrodiazanole)?


I want you to stop the Metronidazole, but continue with the Tripe-Sulfa until you get the Maracyn-Two, hopefully today, if today, stop both now. If you go back to you post #17, the color of Zeek's droppings in that post indicated to me some kind of liver involvement and Pidgey thought perhaps kidneys. You saying that his dropping's urates became white and now have declined again may mean that whatever is causing Zeek's infection may have been only intermediately susceptible to the sulfa drug, meaning that some of the bacteria in the infection are not sensitive to a particular antibiotic and they will continue to grow and eventually the antibiotic will have no effect on these resistant bacteria, the infection becomes worse, and the patient declines again. I am hoping a change to Minocycline will deal will this possibility and give better penetration into the tissue of the foot.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=562307&postcount=17

The dropping means Zeek has not been eating much, here is how to "pop" food to hand feed him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow



Karyn


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## pesya

so how would i dilute this medication? they're 6g each packet..


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> so how would i dilute this medication? they're 6g each packet..


Pesya, are you sure you got/inquired about the right medicine, the Maracyn-Two should have 10mg of Minocycline to each pack, I should have mentioned there are two versions of Maracyn-Two, fresh water and salt water, you want the fresh water one, the salt water one is at a different concentration (20mg per pack) with a few extra additives as well.

When you get it, I will tell how to mix and dose it.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

I see a ring around that one bad toe (last pictures) that has to be some more thread, hair or some fiber. Dig it out with something and get it off if you haven't already--that'll take care of that toe.

Take and post a picture of the medicine packet that you're talking about.

Pidgey


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## pesya

each packet contains 10mg of minocycline activity..


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## Dobato

Do we have weight for Zeek?

Karyn


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## pesya

no.. i don't have any scale that is that specific, but there's one at my work that i can borrow, so i will have it tomorrow night.


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## Dobato

Pesya, thanks for clarifying that you do have the correct medicine, it was just that your last post said 6g, this means 6000mg by the way, so this information this threw me off a bit.

Here are your instructions:

Making up the Minocycline will be sort of like Triple-Sulfa, and the dosing will be 10mg/kg, twice a day. So into 10mL of honey or syrup (2 cooking teaspoons) you will place 5 packs of the Minocycline (as it says, each Maracyn-Two pack contains 10mg, so this will be 50mg total), stir well, let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a .50% suspension to dose with, 5mg/mL. 

For today, let's say Zeek weighs 300g, so this means he will need 3mg of Minocycline, twice a day (every 12 hours). This means you will give 0.20cc for every 100 grams of body weight, so a bird weighing 300 grams will get 0.60cc (6 line on a 1cc syringe, every 12 hours, this will be 3mg, or 12 drops). Stir well before each use and keep refrigerated between use.

See if you can get a weight for him tomorrow.

Karyn


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## pesya

thanks karyn! i can see how that could throw someone off!! i'm making it right now.. hopefully this will work!

p.s., his poop is getting back to normal now that i've hand fed him! yaay.


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> thanks karyn! i can see how that could throw someone off!! i'm making it right now.. hopefully this will work!
> 
> p.s., his poop is getting back to normal now that i've hand fed him! yaay.


Sounds good, keep us updated.

Karyn


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## pesya

well, to update you guys, zeek seems to be happier, he's outside right now sunbathing and checking out all of the other birds. i keept him on the maracyn 2 for almost a week and there was no progress in regards to the swelling in his feet. his kidney issue is gone, and again, his poop is normal and he's eating a good deal. i'm just waiting for his toe to fall off, but it looks like it's still attached pretty strong. he's still limping on that foot, and the swelling is right where the toe attaches to the foot, so that's definitely the cause. i'm not sure what i can do, i don't want to remove the toe if it falls off on its own but if it's causing him so much pain, i want it off asap. ugh


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> well, to update you guys, zeek seems to be happier, he's outside right now sunbathing and checking out all of the other birds. i keept him on the maracyn 2 for almost a week and there was no progress in regards to the swelling in his feet. his kidney issue is gone, and again, his poop is normal and he's eating a good deal. i'm just waiting for his toe to fall off, but it looks like it's still attached pretty strong. he's still limping on that foot, and the swelling is right where the toe attaches to the foot, so that's definitely the cause. i'm not sure what i can do, i don't want to remove the toe if it falls off on its own but if it's causing him so much pain, i want it off asap. ugh


Pesya, thanks for the update. Infections in the foot are known for being refractory (thanks Pidgey, I like this word ), that is, an entrenched infection that is hard to clear up. These kind of infections can take many weeks of treatment to respond, by this I mean 3-6 weeks, so let keep him on the Minocycline for a few more weeks yet, to see if the foot does start to respond. The toe, in time will indeed fall off of its own accord, so just be patient with this. Happy to hear he is feeling better, outside of the foot.

Pesya, I conferred with Pidgey, and we both agree it might be worthwhile adding in a medicine called Metronidazole to this little guy's treatment. This drug, Metronidazole, is usually used to treat protozoal infections, but it also can be used in different types of bacterial infections that involve bacteria called anaerobes and can be given at the same time as the Doxycycline. Metronidazole is sold at tropical fish stores and I find the most easy one to find, and common nowadays, is a product called Metroplex by Seachem, but a few other names are FishZole and Hex-A-Mit. Call around and see if you can find the Metroplex (or other Metronidazole, but if it's something other than I mentioned, you have to make sure it is 100% Metronidazole), once you get the med I will help you mix it up and with dosing.

Karyn


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## pesya

Karyn, you've actually already recommended it to me, and i've given it to him for about 2 weeks. i mentioned that there was no progress and was advised to switch to maracyn-2, which i did.. i'll continue on that for a few more weeks and see how the little guy is doing..


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> Karyn, you've actually already recommended it to me, and i've given it to him for about 2 weeks. i mentioned that there was no progress and was advised to switch to maracyn-2, which i did.. i'll continue on that for a few more weeks and see how the little guy is doing..


Pesya, you're quite right he was on Metronidazole a while back, but the reason at the time was that we thought, because of the growth around the beak he may possible have canker. The reason for adding in, or really back, the Metronidazole now, is that, as mentioned, it works against a anaerobic bacteria, so since we are still having some issues with the foot being swollen, there is the possibility that a longer course of treatment with Metronidazole may help resolve this, by working in combination with the Minocycline. Ideally, we may have wanted to try a drug called Clindamycin, but since this can not be purchased over the counted, an acceptable second choice would be Metronidazole.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

How 'bout some updated pictures of Zeek? And of the feet?

Pidgey


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## pesya

unfortunately it's too late and dark for me to take a photo with my camera phone but for what it's worth, here's a photo of him resting that i took earlier today:










he's been grooming himself quite a bit and subsequently getting feathers all over himself


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## cubanlofts

U should have give him three in one for cocci, canker and salmonella from the beginning and, some antiobiotic for his foot, triple sulfa would have being nice, is an API product, is actually for fish, and u can buy it at petsmart, them some probiotics, and voila, u have yourself a new pigeon, about his ffot, he might be better off without that toe, and he might limp forever, but thats k, better limp thatn dead. good job btw


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## November-X-Scourge

**

I think the vita pigeon and dove food is a good thing to feed them, I use it on mine and they love it, as the other ppl commenting said, that middle toe is probs gonna fall of...I rescue pigeons too, and i have two (November and Scourge) and thank you for taking in this adorable looking pigeon!!!   

(actually, I just rescued Scourge (a huge female) today)


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## cubanlofts

November-X-Scourge said:


> I think the vita pigeon and dove food is a good thing to feed them, I use it on mine and they love it, as the other ppl commenting said, that middle toe is probs gonna fall of...I rescue pigeons too, and i have two (November and Scourge) and thank you for taking in this adorable looking pigeon!!!
> 
> (actually, I just rescued Scourge (a huge female) today)


u can bet that toe is falling, I would just cut it, that pigeon has no nerves at all on that toe, it wouldnt hurt at all.


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## Quazar

cubanlofts said:


> u can bet that toe is falling, I would just cut it, that pigeon has no nerves at all on that toe, it wouldnt hurt at all.


IF ANY AMPUTATION IS REQUIRED, it should be done by someone qualified, you have no idea what the pigeon can feel or otherwise.

I SUGGEST YOU READ THE FORUM RULES BEFORE HANDING OUT STUPID ADVICE LIKE THIS 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=44598&postcount=1


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## goga82

my honest oppinion about that wing cause i seen it so many times..
what usually happends they get hit by a car. and they lose that part of the wing.
it dont look like he's molting so drasticly to lose half of his wing..
u sure did get yourself a best friend. pigeons are most appreciative when u save them better than any bird
u are amazing person as well to taking him in your care. you guys should consider yourself blessed. u'r a changed person now 

and as far as his toes. make sure there is nothig else tangled in there.
take cuticle cutter and cut whatever is tangled there thats preventing blood flow.
i do it on daily baisic downtown


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## pesya

Thanks guys 

I finally have an update on his little toe! I placed him outside on an elevated platform (about 5' tall), which i've been doing over the last couple weeks to give him some sunshine. he seems to really enjoy hearing the other birds in the area. i kept checking him throughout the day and he was fine, but when it came time to bring him back in, he was no where to be found. and worst of all, there was a cat hiding in the bushes right by where he was hanging out >: ( i ended up finding him tangled up in some twigs, hiding. Needless to say i need to figure something else out. He's completely fine, he wasn't even in shock, and his toe was dangling by a thread. so i tugged it gently and it came right off. i'm starting him up on maracyn-2 again to make sure that his open wound won't get infected. i know i said i'll update with some photos of his feet and never did, but i will this time in a little bit!


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## Reti

Thank you for the update. I am glad he is alright.

Reti


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## pesya

I also forgot to ask! is the suspension still good? i've had it in the fridge for maybe 3 weeks at most. is it still potent enough or should i mix a new batch? (i'm talking about the metrodiazanole and the maracyn-2, both mixed with honey respectively - and they're for his swollen foot).


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> I also forgot to ask! is the suspension still good? i've had it in the fridge for maybe 3 weeks at most. is it still potent enough or should i mix a new batch? (i'm talking about the metrodiazanole and the maracyn-2, both mixed with honey respectively - and they're for his swollen foot).


Yes, both would still be fine.

Karyn


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## pesya

so here are the aforementioned photos.. i have started him on maracyn-2 about two days ago and will follow through until his swelling finally goes down. i'm not so sure about what's going on with his poop.. i've only been feeding him vita's pigeon/dove mix. yesterday i added a powdered probiotic + vitamin b to his food (as directed), as well as some oyster shells for calcium. he hasn't been eating the shells, and his poop has become more and more liquidy and bright, almost neonish green over the last 2 days. so it's not the pro biotic since i just started that. <:/


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## pesya

Some more photos..










there's a smidge of his toe remaining on his foot. his other toe has been like that for a little while after stepping in his own poop (he had a wound from the string i removed on his second day with me that apparently did not heal too quickly). i've been washing his feet almost everyday as necessary and of course the process scares the living daylights out of him. he lets me pick him up, but is always hesitant, and sometimes pecks me / tries to get away at which point i leave him alone. he seems to be afraid whenever i take him to a different room, so i'm not sure how to train him to bathe in our bathtub as i know pidgeys do it on their own with a little dish.. i'm just having a hard time trying to convince him i'm trying to help as i have to terrify him twice a day with his medicine. it's so frustrating. i'm considering getting him some pigeon pants so that perhaps his ability to move around the house will give him some confidence and a sense of home / some sort of comfort. 




























sorry for the heavy load of pictures.. i couldn't help myself.


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## pesya

ok guys, so i'm wondering, is there any way that i can make my little pigeon more comfortable with me? he's so used to me force feeding him his medicine that he's afraid of me, and i'm trying to figure out a way to get him to trust me again. i just want him to be comfortable with me. any suggestions?


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## Dobato

Pesya, Phil our resident pigeon whisperer might have some thoughts for you, I will ask him to have a look in on your thread, I wouldn't mind seeing a new photos of fresh droppings when you get a chance.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

I am thinking it might be worth while to have him on some Enroflaxyn and Metronidazole at this point.

When in Tablet form, it is a lot easier to administrate Meds, and, the Tablet form can be had via Mail Order from some of the various Pigeon Supply places and be there in a couple days.

I personally would also have him on Medistatin for a while also, but, no places I know carry small sizes of that one.

Followed by Pro-Biotics soon after.



Far as winning them over, and or, reducing stress and conflict in the Bird, or for them to be easy and co-operative...it is all about a whole way of doing everything from the beginning.

If I flub a beginning, it can sometimes take quite a while to make up for it.

But either way - never aproach the Bird with Hands above their Eye level.

Do everything slowly.

Ask first and or say "I would like to pick you up so we can do Medicines/Exam/Bathing, whatever, explain thing to them simply.

Talk slowly and clearly, with good Eye contact.

Pick them up and carry them so they are standing on your left Palm, right Hand softly cupped over their Head, holding them so they are just barely against your chest...but so they are in fact standing and not being pushed one way or the other, so they are in charge of their own Balance.

Avoid offending their highly refined and sensitive sence of Balance, so that when carrying or holding them, their sense of Balance is being respected.

Do feeds, meds, other things, on a folded Towel across your Lap, as you sit under a bright Light or Lamp.

Maintain the same location for this for successive administrations/procedures.

Pretend to share foods with them if they are self feeding, by this same arrangement, and, by pretend 'pecking' with your crook'd index finger of your right hand, left hand very softly against one of their shoulders or softly petting their neck or back, but make sure they are not disliking the petting part, and if they are, then skip that and just softly cup your left hand over them or have it just over their Head, to avoid any sudden flights or to reduce scheming about get-aways.

Offer lots of praise and compliments all along.

Never let them be unsupervised out of doors.

If wishing for them to enjoy some direct sunshine, get an ample-enough Cage and set it up securely so a Cat or other Creature can not knock it over, and, check them often even at that.

Thrift Stores or 'Free Cycle' are good venues for inexpensive or free used Cages if one does not have a Cage already.

If using a Cage, indoors or out, never have it set up at less than elbow height ( as being any lower will unduely stress the Bird, who, as a Bird, wishes to be as high as possible, as far as location or where to perch, or, where to roost ).


In dealing with a convelescent Bird, and, needing to pick them up, always approach them from the front, hands low close to their leg level...just slip your palms 'up' hands under them from the front, so that your little fingers are just inside their Legs, and, then, the rest of your palms are softly cupping them.

This, when done slowly, allows you to lift them, so their Legs dangle, and, they will not mind being lifted up in to the air, and, they are in effect 'floating' like a Duck in water this way.

This allows one to hold them very lightly and securely up to one's own Eye level, so their eyes and one's own are on the same level.

This then is the mode for conversation or offering explainations or asking them about how they are feeling to-day and so on, then, on to being carried as explained above for whatever meds or procedures or other one has in mind.



Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pesya

that's great information, thank you Phil. i've actually been following those procedures almost to a T! I've been approaching him from the front, below eye level, with open palms and very slowly. He's still on Maracyn-2, but I will switch to Metro. 

No pet shop in my town offers pigeon feed (I actually need to special order it), so i bought the wild bird feed, and it seems as though he's been pooping out the seeds. I can't really tell for sure, but it seems as if they're stuck together, in clusters, and the newspaper around the seeds is stained as though liquid has been expelled along with the seeds. Is this just from his feed or from a larger problem?


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> No pet shop in my town offers pigeon feed (I actually need to special order it), so i bought the wild bird feed, and it seems as though he's been pooping out the seeds. I can't really tell for sure, but it seems as if they're stuck together, in clusters, and the newspaper around the seeds is stained as though liquid has been expelled along with the seeds. Is this just from his feed or from a larger problem?


I don't think he is passing seeds in his droppings, as when this happens you get wet looking droppings, with seeds mixed in, and there are too many dry balled droppings for this, plus they are much more "soaked" looking, as they have spent time passing through the GI system. If anything, I would say this looks to be some regurgitation of some seeds, could be a bit of a reaction to the meds, but also could indicate some crop irritation. Has he ever been on ACV (apple cider vinegar)?.. as I think this would be a good idea based on what I am seeing. 

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Hi pesyn,



Yes...these appear to be Seeds which have been Thrown up.


Last image of Poops, the poops/urates are looking pretty good actually...other than that the ones on the NEwspaper are a little bit off far as their bleeding moisture in to the newspaper anyway.

But, he is having some sort of issues in his Crop, which, as Karyn mentions, could be a reaction to the Meds, or, could be something else, or, could be a something-else which is making his Crop sensitive to the Meds.

But, given how the thrown-up Seeds are sort of in a light goo or adhesive mucous or slime or something, I do think there are some troubles in the Crop itself, whether or not the Throwing-up is being brought about by the Meds.

I am not familiar with the 'Maraycn-2' Medication...other than that it is a different kind of Medicine and for different application, than is Metronidazole.

There have been hints of his suffering form some sort of Yeast troubles though, whether or not having continuous symptoms, for which, a period of time on 'Medistatin' would be good.

Earlier poops to me looked like something I would be reaching for the Enroflaxyn and Metronidazole to address, but, now I do not know...so, lets just keep postiong daily Poop images, and, see how things go.


I agree - 'ACV-Water' ( say, three Tablespoons to a Gallon ) would be good to do.


What City are you in?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pesya

i'm starting on the apple cider vinegar right now, and i'm stopping the meds. maracyn-2 is minocycline.. i'm not too sure anymore as to why i was giving him that to begin with. i have some metrodnidazole i can start him on now, but i'll have to find some Enroflaxyn. as far as the yeast problems, is it the poop that would suggest that?

i live near san francisco..



















so now in addition to his crop, this is what i'm trying to fix to give you an idea..
also i saw him pecking at the little black piece of his toe that's leftover, which i guess is a good thing.


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## Dobato

pesya said:


> i'm starting on the apple cider vinegar right now, and i'm stopping the meds. maracyn-2 is minocycline.. i'm not too sure anymore as to why i was giving him that to begin with. i have some metrodnidazole i can start him on now, but i'll have to find some Enroflaxyn. as far as the yeast problems, is it the poop that would suggest that?


Yes, you can go ahead and stop the the Maracyn-2 (Minocycline), and start the Metronidazole. The Minocycline was to deal with trying to insure the the foot that was still swollen did not have a refractory infection issue. I think the foot now looks OK and although still a bit swollen, I not so worried about infection in it, as I once was.

It's not so much the poop suggesting a yeast problem (may not even be one), but the regurgitation of the seeds. Keep an eye that Zeek is OK with drinking the water with 3 tablespoons a gallon in it, sometimes you have to sneak it up on them, 1 tablespoon one day, 2 the next and then 3, so they kind of get used to the acidity, most are OK with 3 right off the bat, but some don't like the sudden change. The ACV is to shift down the pH of the crop, and the rest of the GI tract, making it a less friendly place for pathogens to take up residence.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Candida or Yeast troubles in the Crop or further down can sometimes wax and wane, as far as symptoms.

He did have some possible symptoms originally, and, off and on since - as suggested by the white film on his Beak, some of the aspects seen in the poops/urates, and, in throwing up, though throwing up could be form other things also of course.

The ACV-Water woud be good for this as well as good in general, and, might be enough to correct the issue, if there is in fact a yeast or Candida issue present.

Pro-Biotics might also be good now, if you have any or can get some.

Keep posting daily fresh-poop images.

His Toe end might be itching a it is healing...so, he may be pecking at it for that reason.


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