# Possibly sick pigeon



## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

I was just feeding my pigeons and i noticed one of them ate very slowly. and moves slow. she drank water and is eating but very slowly. I am sure she should be hungry now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you're going to need to give more info than that, it's just not enough to go on. Are you sure it's a hen? Did you pick her up to see if she's lost weight? Can you bring her inside, put her in a box with papers so that you can check out the poops?

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

I believe it IS canker. I just checked her mouth and there are yellow thing on the left side of her mouth. I will give her spartix for the treatment. Luckily i have the pack because of another pigeon that had canker and recovered.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

A behavioral change and this is one, has to raise suspicions about potential illness. Can you isolate your bird and watch for additional symptoms? Watch her droppings over the next 24-48 hours. Watch her water intake to see if she is drinking much more or much less. Take a look in her mouth for any signs of canker. Has she been wormed recently? Is there any odor to the droppings? Check her eyes to see if they are watery. Check her sinuses for any discharge. How is her breathing? Could she be egg bound? Is she lowering her head towards the ground? Is her tail going up and down as she breathes? Feel her body for any abnormalities.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

Do you have enough Spartrix to give her a 5 day treatment, one pill per day? Even after the canker is gone, the mucous membranes have to heal over or she will get another attack. This could take a month or more to resolve.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Yes i have 45 or so pills left. They expire in 2010. The instructions say 

Dosage:
1 tablet per pigeon

a single oral dose is fully effective against trichomonas columbae.


--
It drank water and ate alitle food about 10 minutes ago and the directions say 

" preferably all the pigeons in the loft should be treated at the same time, before feeding. at the time of treat ment no waterbowls should be left in the pigoen house, they can be put back two hours after feeding. This treatment can be repeated everytime there is a risk of reinfestation . I.e. at the start of the breeding season during the first half of the nesting period after purchase, after " getting lost" etc.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

how long should i wait before giving her the first pill?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When you've got a loft, if you have one pigeon that tests positive for the canker organism, it usually means that more or all have it. To have Trichomonas doesn't necessarily mean that a bird will come down with the clinical disease but it usually means that a percentage of the nestlings will die of it. There are strains of trichomonas that don't cause little to no discernible symptoms and, given the choice, you'd almost rather have them because they'll usually cause immunity to the more virulent strains. But, it's kinda' hard to tell who's who in that microscopic world so the tendency is to flock treat at the first sign.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Why would you wait?

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> how long should i wait before giving her the first pill?


You don't need to wait. You can give your bird the Spartrix now. 
I would suggest giving the pill around the same time each day though.

Cindy


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

It says 1 is effective. i gave my other bird one and it was healed


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure. For the moment. They can get it again, you know. The organism that causes the disease is a flagellating protozoa. That means it's a little bug that's got little whips that it slings around to move around. They're fairly energetic. What you probably want is to get rid of all those bugs in your entire loft. That's why most people who have lofts end up flock treating.

Now, you can treat them as they come up but some can slip by with an inner canker where the lesion occurs on the inside of the bird where you can't see. The bird's obviously sick but you don't know why. Sometimes, they can die so fast that you didn't know they were sick because they had you fooled right up until the moment they keeled over. Want an example? Hang on a minute and I'll go get you one.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This is a painful story, but you can learn a lot from it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=168406

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=18664

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

thanks pidgy, the good thing about spartrix is that it says it is safe to re treat when there is a risk of infection.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

I just gave it 1 pill of spartrix. I believe it swallowed it


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

Spartrix is an antibiotic. One pill won't completely cure the disease. It has to be maintained in the blood level for a number of days in order to kill most of the trichomonads. It's the same thing with what we usually think an antibiotic is. Nobody would expect to take one pill and be cured. What you read is wrong or is the direction for a prophylactic dose. Give it for 5 days straight. If the bird is having difficulty in swallowing the pill, cut it in half and give it in two halves.

Someone at Animal General Hospital called me some time back and asked how I dose with Spartrix. I said I give 4 pills, one pill for each of the next 4 days. To verify what I had said, they put a call into the Raptor Trust and were told that the dose given is 5 pills. If the Raptor Trust gives 5 pills, I went to the same amount and have been doing that since.

If you have a probiotic, I suggest giving it to the bird at the same time. It helps reduce the possibility of a yeast buildup because like any other antibiotic, Spartrix will upset the natural gut bacteria.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

so i give it 1 pill everyday for 5 days?


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

Yes, one pill a day for 5 days straight. Please don't try to remove the lesions. Let them fall apart on their own. Under them is raw tissue ready to bleed. It takes at least one month from the time you medicate, for the body to reject the canker and heal the mucous membranes that have been destroyed by the little monsters.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Dosing Spartix*

Hello Pidgey, Pigeonperson and all, 

I must have the same source of Spartrix as Flying Pidgey.

I was able to locate some meds at a local German pet feed store, and bought a box of 

Brieftauben-Spartrix 
in English: Active ingredient Carnidazol. 
1 Tablet contains 10 mg Q-Methyl-N-12--(2-methyl-5-nitro-1imidazollyl)ethyl]-thiocarbamat (Carnidazol) 
Mnfr: Janssen-Cilag GmbH, address 41457 Neuss 
distributed by (or distributor for?) _(Mitvertrieb)_ Dr. Hesse 
Tierpharma GmbH + Co KG, address 25551 Hohenlockstedt 

Dosing-guidance, Type and Duration of the Application:

_Brietauben-Spartrix kommt in einer einzigen Dosis pro Brieftauben zur Anwendung._ Letter-Pigeon-Spartrix comes in an only (single, solitary) dose per Letter-pigeon for application. Adult pigeon 1 tablet, young pigeon 1/2 tablet. The tablet is to be put as deep as possible in the beak. (Cost 9.80 Euros or about $12 for 25 tablets).

Nothing about treating with more than one tablet. 

Expiration date March 2010 (therefore instructions should be current or up-to-date).(Instruction sheet copyright J-C 1998, package copyright J-C 1999).

Is the 10 mg tablet enough for a solitary treatment, or just for a prophylactic treatment? 

I think I'll go with the 1 tablet-per day for 5 days route.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Spartrix dose*

Update to my last post: 

After some convoluted internet searching, I found what their dosing instructions are for:

During the "travel time" (racing season) each pigeon should be given a weekly single dose of one Tablet Spartrix, after each flight, to prevent a failure or break in performance. 

_Spartrix-Tabletten wirken gegen die Trichomoniasis. Während der Reisezeit sollte wöchentlich nach jedem Flug pro Taube 1 Tablette Spartrix als Einzelbehandlung gegeben werden, um einem Leistungseinbruch vorzubeugen. Den Jungtauben verabreicht man beim Absetzen je Taube 1 Tablette.
Packung: Blisterpackung mit 25 Tabletten_ 

http://www.roehnfried-hesse.de/lexi...opmenu=6&keyword=&type=&begriff=46&buchstabe=

So, this is a prophylactic dose for racing or homing pigeons. 

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Spartrix dose*

Update to my last post: 

After some convoluted internet searching, I found what their dosing instructions are for:

During the "travel time" (racing season) each pigeon should be given a weekly single dose of one Tablet Spartrix, after each flight, to prevent a failure or break in performance. 

_Spartrix-Tabletten wirken gegen die Trichomoniasis. Während der Reisezeit sollte wöchentlich nach jedem Flug pro Taube 1 Tablette Spartrix als Einzelbehandlung gegeben werden, um einem Leistungseinbruch vorzubeugen. Den Jungtauben verabreicht man beim Absetzen je Taube 1 Tablette.
Packung: Blisterpackung mit 25 Tabletten_ 

http://www.roehnfried-hesse.de/lexi...opmenu=6&keyword=&type=&begriff=46&buchstabe=

So, this is a prophylactic dose for racing or homing pigeons. 

*NEXT QUESTION:* Since this is a prophylactic dose, what is the correct dose for treating a suspected or an actual case of canker? Or a severe case?

I ask this, because in Germany one usually needs to get antbiotics from a vet. I suspect this may be a "mini-dose," and this dosage of 10mg may not effectively treat a sick pigeon.

When my 340-gram adult male pigeon *Wieteke* seemed sick last month, I gave him one Spartrix tablet, and treated him for coccidiosis, which he had previously had in May, and followed it with anti-worming powder put on food. He got better. 

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The instructions for most of the meds we access from pigeon supply sources are based on flock economics. For instance, I've got a bottle of Enroxil that has a different instructions sticker on it than the one that originally came with the bottle--that's been overstuck by the other sticker. I peeled it off to reveal that the original manufacturer's instructions were "0,2 ml/kg B.W." per day. It's 10% Enrofloxacin (Baytril) and so that translates to 0.2 milliliters per kilogram of body weight per day. Another way of putting that is 200 microliters/kilogram per day or (at 10%) that's 20 milligrams per kilogram per day assuming the specific gravity is equivalent to water. It doesn't say anything about giving it twice a day. There is a further note about when giving it for articular Salmonellosis, you should give it at the 0,4 ml/kg B.W. (400 microliters or 40 milligrams per kilogram of bird per day) for three days and then taper back to the earlier protocol for 10 more days.

Now, if you take the instructions plastered over those, it tells you 8 cc/gallon. Okay, so 8 cc equals 8000 microliters or only 800 milligrams of actual medicine (10% solution) in the gallon. Assuming that the bird drinks 5% of its body weight per day (many of them do) then it'll end up getting 10.5 milligrams per kilogram of bird for the day (50 grams is 5% of 1 kilogram; 1 gallon is 3785 grams; so: 50/3785*800=10.56).

In the formularies (which aren't addressing flock treatment), the range is from 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID. To convert that to a once-daily treatment, that's 10-40 mg/kg, PO, SID. So, the instructions on the packages are often on the low end of the treatment spectrum, for this drug at least, but I've seen it for others as well. As such, it's good to go looking for all you can about a given drug and take that in consideration when you're treating an individual bird with a full-blown case of whatever.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Why don't you treat the birds with the obvious signs with Spartix, and isolate them.

Then use a flock treatment for the rest.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

Larry,
Stay away from instructions dealing with racing pigeons. These people are only interested in performance and what they are doing is sacrificing their birds' health for a winner. To put it another way, they are pumping their birds with anything and everything and don't care about what it is doing to the birds' insides. 

One pill of anything is a prophylactic. The fact that the medicine kills weaker organisms allowing stronger, more resistant forms to take over doesn't bother these enthusiasts. If they could give steroids before a race, I'm sure they are doing that too. 

The instructions for Spartrix are directly addressing these kinds of people. It is not for treating a sick bird so you will find recommendations for giving a pill perhaps before a race or after a race. One racing pigeon person told me that the birds are half dead already when they are ready to race. 

The best thing to do is not treat unless there is obvious illness and that goes for anything. If I bring a bird in from the outside, the first thing I do is observe to try and find out what is wrong. I'm not going to pump the bird with medications that he may not need and reduce his immunity system to just a word in the dictionary. If the bird is 'cleaned out', what happens when he is released back into the wild? His system is clean and his immunity system has been compromised. When he then drinks water, his emptied system is wide open to anything in that water like coccidiosis and canker and anything else you can think of. I used to do that and the birds came right back to me, sicker than when I first got them so no more.

I just took in a 5-6 week old bird who was starving and dehydrated from this very cold winter weather. His droppings are excellent now that he has good food in him. He doesn't need medicating....no cocci drug and no canker drug. He goes back into the streets stronger and just as healthy since he hasn't been pumped full of prophylactic meds.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

Treesa,
Do you have anything definitive on ACV making the bird's system an unhappy environment for canker?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What I'd always heard was that an acidic environment keeps some bacteria down, notably the gram negatives and that was the reason for treating their water that way. I remember that the notation recommended doing that more as a winter thing, too. That was from a reference a long time ago and it didn't say anything about it having anything to do with canker. Back in summer, I tried testing my water pans for the ferals for canker organisms with and without the ACV in the water. I couldn't get a reliable test because my pans were different types (really need two stainless ones) and I saw that the ACV water had a really bad effect on the regular pan. So, I didn't finish the study until I can find two identical pans of either plastic (don't much like that idea, though) or stainless. One thing's for sure, though--the wild ones don't want to drink the water if it's got too much ACV in it so they just go somewhere else to drink.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

so... how much dosage do i give it?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

also, it seems like the bird is doing better


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

here is a picture of her poop.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

There's no confusion. Give one pill a day for the next 5 days. She has a bacterial infection from the canker. I hope you have an antibiotic to give her too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that poop doesn't look too good, does it?

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

She's not eating. The droppings are all liquid. Sure she isn't eating. Her mouth hurts to open it plus she's feeling pretty sickly.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i see her pecking at the food she was walking around and pecked the food 45 minutes ago


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

Pecking, yes but do you see any solids at all in the droppings? She's pecking but is she able to swallow?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

the poops are not all 100% water, there is some solid in there. I just cleaned the cage now and i will be able to see the fresh new poops.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

I can't tell you what to do so this is only a suggestion. Can you hand feed her wet pieces of Purina Puppy Chow? She needs protein for repair.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> * *the poops are not all 100% water, there is some solid in there.*
> 
> ** *I just cleaned the cage now and i will be able to see the fresh new poops.*


* This is true. Although they are not the normal solid droppings, there does appear to be some solid matter, so I would suspect she is consuming some seeds. Perhaps not enough though. 
There are so many factors that can cause abnormal droppings. Canker certainly is one. 
It does look as thought she is drinking some, which is good.

Would you be able to get a picture of the inside of her mouth & post it?

If you haven't already done so, could you check her keel (breast) bone? There should be a good amount of muscle on each side. 

** That's good.  

Please keep us posted. 

Cindy


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

shes sleeping right now, she pooped again and its watery white stuff. il try to get a picture of her mouth tomorrow. Thanks


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Please bring her inside and provide her with warmth, if you haven't done so.

I would start with just a little ACV in the water, as you need to make sure she is drinking it, if she doesn't like the taste, she isn't going to drink it, then she is not really getting any of the goodness. Also provide her with probiotics. 

I always give all the supportive products (Neem, Reishi, Garlic/Allicidin, ACV) in conjunction with medication (if I use any meds at all) because it increases immune response, as well as enabling the immune system to stay in gear once they are off the meds.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> the formularies (which aren't addressing flock treatment), the range is from 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID. To convert that to a once-daily treatment, that's 10-40 mg/kg, PO, SID.


Your formulary might be a bit out of date and the conversion from BID to daily dose might end up in an overdose.

This is a copy of the dosages recommended for pigeons on the Baytril site: The first column is mg/kg bw, the second frequency (24 hours), the third mode of administration, the fourth the source.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> There's no confusion. Give one pill a day for the next 5 days.
> *She 'has' a bacterial infection from the canker*. I hope you have an antibiotic to give her too.


How can you be certain of this?  

Cindy


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

Cindy,
Canker always brings bacterial infection. The exudate that the trichomonads gives off is a fertile breeding ground for bacteria and the little bugs are opportunistic.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Canker always brings bacterial infection. The exudate that the trichomonads gives off is a fertile breeding ground for bacteria and the little bugs are opportunistic.


That is the first time I have heard that, and I have read a lot about canker.

Where do you think this bacterial infection is? And what sort of bacteria would you be aiming at? Aerobic or anaerobic, gram negative or gram positive?

Cynthia


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

Cynthia,
I'm not surprised you haven't read about this. Up until you asked, I hadn't located anything in writing about it either. For the next two posts, I had to travel far and wide over the web. These two cites point to secondary infections in birds showing the symptoms of trichomoniasis. I can't find anything else but it's common sense that bacteria is going to be present in these lesions and either spread to other parts of the body or come from other parts of the body.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

Here is something on it:
www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1647/1082-6742(2000)014[0113:PASAAS]2.0.CO;2


Journal of Avian Medicine and Surgery

Article: pp. 113–117 | Abstract | PDF
Pseudomonas aeruginosa Stomatitis as a Sequel to Trichomoniasis in Captive Saker Falcons (Falco cherrug)

JAIME H. SAMOUR, MVZ, PhD

Twelve adult female saker falcons developed reduced appetite, progressive weight loss, and unilateral or bilateral sinusitis. Nodular white or yellow caseous lesions were visible on the oropharynx and tongue of all birds. One falcon had 2 caseous masses on either side of the tracheobronchial syrinx, resulting in severe tracheal stenosis. All 12 birds had a history of mild to moderate trichomonal infections 3–4 weeks before examination. In all birds, bacterial culture of samples from these masses yielded pure growths of Pseudomonas aeruginosa. The birds were treated with a combination of piperacillin (100 mg/kg) and tobramycin (10 mg/kg) administered intramuscularly q12h for 7 days. Oropharyngeal lesions were debrided, and the oral cavity of each bird was sprayed with a 1% povidone iodine mouthwash preparation. In birds with unilateral or bilateral sinusitis, a solution of 0.2 ml of a 5% chlorhexidine gluconate preparation diluted to 20 ml with sterile saline was used to flush the affected sinus q12h for 3–5 days. Tracheal masses in the 1 falcon were removed by curettage during tracheoscopy. Oropharyngeal lesions in all birds were completely resolved within 8–18 days of treatment. Trichomoniasis coupled with stress during the training and hunting seasons may have predisposed these falcons to infection with P aeruginosa.

Keywords: Pseudomonas aeruginosa, stomatitis, trichomoniasis, saker falcon, Falco cherrug


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

Common Diseases of Urban Wildlife:

"2.3 Trichomoniasis
Oral trichomoniasis has been observed in debilitated free ranging birds, but is most common in captive wildlife that are undergoing treatment for various injuries. Birds of prey, columbiforms, little penguins, and psittacines are sporadically affected by trichomoniasis. Trichomonads are common commensal
agents within the avian alimentary tract. Trichomonads are ovoid protozoa that have four anterior flagella and an undulating membrane. These organisms are spread through either direct or indirect contact. The factors that predispose a bird to develop trichomoniasis are unknown.
Common Diseases of Urban Wildlife: BIRDS
K. Rose, June 2005
- 3 -
Caseous oral plaques are created when the organisms cause tissue necrosis. Lesions are often subject to secondary bacterial infections. A diagnosis of trichomoniasis is best made by examining a wet mount reparation of the caseous debris. Flagellates can be seen moving within the wet preparations under light microscopy. The organisms are much more difficult (often impossible) to see within cytologic and histologic preparations of affected tissues.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

update: This is her poops now and instead of having yellow stuff on her throat they are now white.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Just a suggestion.

Put newspaper or paper towels on the bottom of her cage and change them often so she won't have to eat the seed that get in her poop or even stand in it. Keep her food in a small dish so it isn't contaminated by the poop.

You may want to thoroughly clean and disinfect the cage too.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Just a suggestion.
> 
> Put newspaper or paper towels on the bottom of her cage and change them often so she won't have to eat the seed that get in her poop or even stand in it. Keep her food in a small dish so it isn't contaminated by the poop.
> 
> You may want to thoroughly clean and disinfect the cage too.


I clean it everyday, the seeds were in a dish but she went in her water and carried them outof the dish and stepped in the poop. i have a video of her eating

the seeds closest to the bird are safflowers and the ones by the cage are those very litle seeds that are in wild bird feed. i forgot the name


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Updated- new vid and pics ^


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2007)

Well, she is swallowing seed. That can be seen on the video. Flying_Pidgy, her droppings indicate that she has an infection deeper down than just in her mouth. I don't know if this is yeast or canker in the gut or bacterial or all of them which is possible. Are you sure that what you are looking at is canker? In the mouth and throat, E.coli looks a lot like canker does. Has she been wormed recently?

This is why tests are better than guesses. Antibiotics would make a yeast infection worse so if one is in doubt, both Nystatin and an antibiotic should be given at the same time.

Do you have any antibiotics on hand like a tetracycline, Baytril or Metronadazole? If you can't take her to a vet for tests, would you be willing to cover more bases with an antibiotic + Spartrix. These droppings are too lousy for it to be just canker in the throat.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> Common Diseases of Urban Wildlife:
> 
> "2.3 Trichomoniasis
> Caseous oral plaques are created when the organisms cause tissue necrosis. Lesions are *often* subject to secondary bacterial infections.


Thank you for posting this. 

I think I'm understanding it a little better.
Although there is the *possibility* of a secondary bacterial infection developing, we can't assume every pigeon who has canker *automatically* developes a secondary bacterial infection. 
That's where the diagnostic testing comes in.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Flying Pidgey,
I'm not sure if you have ever checked out Brad's thread: 'Poops, what do they really mean'. If not, here's the link:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11637
It's an interesting, & informative bit of reading. 

Do you have access to an avian vet that you could take your pij to for a check up? Or, at the very least take a fecal sample in for testing? 

Just a suggestion: While this is going on, you might want to clean her cage often. As Maggie suggested, using newspaper, paper towels (you will need a few at each changing). This will help absorb any liquid in the droppings. 

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2007)

Cindy,

I figure it this way: The body has a lot of bacteria in the digestive system including the mouth and if it is in a normal balance, nothing will happen. When canker breaks through the mucous membrane, that's a route the bacteria can now take to enter the deep tissues, reproduce and cause a recognizable infection. It can stay local or it can spread. The mucous membranes are one of the body's greatest defenses against the invasion of bacteria.

The canker breaks through mucous membranes. How? I'm pretty sure that the exudate the trichomonads give off is toxic to cells and kills them starting with the mucous membranes. The dead cells fall apart and become food for them. The more cells die, the deeper the lesion becomes and the more trichomonads there are. That exudate is now filled with dead organic matter and it's easy for bacteria to lay claim to it so not only do the bacteria flourish in the fluid but they too, give off waste material that is also toxic to the living cells. It isn't bacteria that kills cells but rather the toxins they give off. White blood cells rush to the area to try and gobble up the bacteria and that mixture of white blood cells becomes a kind of pus so now we see a mixture of pus and exudate from the bacterial and trichomonadal exudates and that's the cheesy yellowish material over the areas of infection. What we see is a poisonous mess.

The first thing to do to try to clear this up is to kill both the trichomonads and the bacteria. A drug like Spartrix will kill the canker organisms. An antibiotic like Baytril will prevent the bacteria from multiplying leaving the bacteria that is there to die of old age and stop producing toxins. An antibiotic like Metronadazole can work on both canker and bacteria. When these drugs accomplish their work, the cells of the body can now regenerate in peace and fill in the damage left by these two terrible processes. 

If we release a bird before the body's cells have had a chance to finish their job, the mucous membrane is still broken and the entire process can start all over again the next time the bird drinks water filled with canker. Even if no canker gets in, bacteria can and start a brand new infection. This isn't an easy disease to cure. There are two elements working to kill the bird, bacteria and canker.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Flying Pidgey,
Could you give us an update on how your bird is doing?
Thanks.

Cindy


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

I will as soon as i get home. in the morning i noticed her poops have improved alot. they are more solid and she is very active. and i can hear her voice.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> I will as soon as i get home. *in the morning i noticed her poops have improved alot. they are more solid and she is very active. and i can hear her voice*.


Thanks for the update Flying Pidgy.
That's great to hear.  
Let's hope she continues to improve.

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Treesa,
> Do you have anything definitive on ACV making the bird's system an unhappy environment for canker?



Not Treesa here, but I am on-topic regarding your question pigeonperson. Alot of avian vets do swear by the acidification of drinking water and specifically w/Apple Cider Vinegar that has the mother in it as the mother contains probiotics. There has been a fair amount of discussion on the topic of ACV here and can be sought out if one desires through the search tool above, but essentially, acidification of the crop and the use of probiotics creates an environment that many organisms detrimental to a bird's health tend not to thrive in. These organisms prefer an alkaline environment over an acidic one to multiply in. Probiotics achieve the same end result by producing an acidic environment. It's not just about 'crowding out' bad bacteria/other organisms, or 'eating them up', it's about the very environment their presence generates which is just plain unfavorable for alkaline loving organisms to multiply in.

Conversely, friendly bacteria are acid loving-producing and by ensuring
a favorable environment for friendly bacteria to thrive/maintain in, it's hoped that the need for antibiotic intervention is therefore minimized. 

fp

Flying_Pidgey, it is indeed great news to hear that your pij is doing better
and becoming more active.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Update: i just checked her and her throat is fully cleared =) . Shes back to her old self now, she ate very very well today and her poops are exellent. i will get some pictures. I will continue to keep an eye out for her for a couple days before putting her back to her loft.i let her out of the cage and isolated in the loft and she stretched and flapped her wings and flew around the loft. after her fun time i brought her back in the cage in the house so she can sleep in a warm envirement.

any idea when to put her back?

btw. i only gave her one tablet of Spartrix and it does wonders. i recomend spartrix for anyone who needs a canker drug.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Flying Pidgy--
Just want to make sure that you complete the course of antibiotics. The bird needs to take all 5 days of Spartrix! Just like in people, 1 day of antibiotics is enough usually to be better clinically, but the infection is not yet cured.*
Sabina


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

just an idea for how to pevent diseases witin a loft. try putting the feed/water cup outside the cage so that the pigeon puts only the head out to eat and as no chance of contaminating its own food. this should prevent most problems.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

The directions says 1 tablet is enough. the bird is healing very well withought the medications.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2007)

fp,
ACV is good stuff for people and the birds.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> The bird needs to take all 5 days of Spartrix!


That was Pigeon Person's opinion based on his experience.

5 days Spartrix is the maximum dose recommended. 

Colin Walker (the Flying Vet) recommends one to four doses and medicating the nest mate and parents for two days.

FW Harper (Auther of Coughs Colds Croaks and Canker (respiratory problems in pigeons explained) states "Spartrix is an effective drug, but in my experience, it needes repeat doses if it is to be relied on as a treatment. THe single tablet has a valuable knock-down effect and is preferable to a short course of in-water treatment.

Dr Wim Peters, author of "Fit to Win" recommends the single dose.

The danger of not completing a recommended dose of antibiotics is not necessarily to the current patient but to future patients as some of the organisms may well survive the initial doses and go on to develop a strain that is resistant to the drug being used. I think that MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) is an example of this. 

There are already strains of canker that are resistant to Carnidazole (Spartrix), this is attributed to regular prophylactic dosing in lofts.

Cynthia


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