# Advise please



## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello and good evening from a new member in England , Would you please advise me , I have a young wood pigeon which I have been feeding for 1 week , It is now about 14-16 days old. I have kept it on a heat pad and fed it on a mixture of lightly scrambled egg, small ground seeds and oats, goji berrys chopped very small and whole small seeds all mixed with water. I have fed the bird every 3 hours . All was well until today when the bird was sick twice, vomiting it's feed back a few minutes after finishing it's meal , It seems a bit off colour , closing it's eyes. I have been syringe feeding the bird into it's beak but have never given the bird water other than in it's feed. I would love to raise the bird to adulthood but I'm now really worried as I have seen how quickly baby birds can go downhill and die. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You need to talk to John (John_D) and Cynthia (cyro51). I'll give 'em a message to visit this thread if they're not already answering.

Pidgey


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Thank you very much, I know there are some very knowledgeable people here as I've been searching the site for more info.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello and welcome,

He could have slow crop, feeding them egg can cause that. The food doesn't move on and rots in the crop, which causes toxins.

Stop feeding it for the time being, but make certain that it doesn't become dehydrated. You can try offering it warm water in a bowl but if it doesn't drink on its own then syringe into the beak. You have to be careful that he doesn't aspirate it so put the water drop by drop into the very front of the beak . I usually aim to give 7cc at a time. 

Watch his poops to see that the food is going through. Let us know how his crop is tomorrow, if it hasn't emptied overnight it might be necessary to help it.

I have a good recipe for feeding woodies, I will post it in a few minutes.

Cynthia


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Thank you for the advise and information I will do as you suggest and let you know how he is tommorrow. There does not seem to be anything at all in his crop at the moment probably due to him vomiting. I will switch to the new diet in the morning and he will get no more egg. Thanks again


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is the recipe. I add chick crumbs soaked for half an hour in warm water to bind it together. They like their food warm at that age.:

_wild bird seed
frozen peas
finely chopped apple
finely chopped peanuts
finely chopped fat balls
finely shredded greens
brown bread crumbs

you can make this up without the fresh stuff in a bowl and add the fresh stuff daily, dont want the apples to ferment! this is fine for them, you can add to the water finely chopped grass. The fat balls, bread, peanuts can be done in the food processer, its easier and gives a good consistency, make loads of it as it keeps for ages, then as i said mix in the fresh stuff daily. _

If his crop is empty then it can't be sour crop, but something is obviously bothering him. When they expel food from the crop it is regurgitation rather than vomiting.

I hope he feels better in the morning. I always worry desperately when a squeaker looks ill, they are very delicate creatures!

THis is a link to a thread about handraising a wood pigeon, it refers to how often and how much the baby was fed so should be useful:



> Feeding query please.....he's now nearly 2 weeks old I would think...he's getting fed every 4 hours and getting about 25 ml of food each time (which seems to satisfy him)...is this too much/too little please? I've been using chick crumbs (prepared) but have now bought some Kaytee baby bird formula and will start that tonight.
> 
> Just wondering if we're giving him the right amounts?
> 
> ...


...

I have that woodie at the moment and she is a beatiful healthy bird.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10531&referrerid=0



Cynthia


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello again , Thanks for the woody diet and info. The bird seemed OK this morning so I fed it a small amount and decided I would feed it little and often today. On the third feed it regurgitated the food back again. The crop seems empty . Any ideas ? Best wishes Amber


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm not a woodie expert but getting its system completely purged and functioning properly again may actually take a few days. They don't always turn around overnight. You might try just letting him have only water for a few hours and then just one feed. Hopefully, Cynthia will be along in a bit to help you. You might need a medication.

Pidgey


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello again, Thank you for the advise , I did as you suggested and gave him only water for the last 2 feeds , I have just fed him and all seems to be well, should I now resume normal feeding? or continue with the little and often method. Sorry to ask so many questions. Best wishes Ambersuzanne


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, sometimes when they get messed up, a slower approach is better. That takes horrific patience sometimes but it's often better. Let's give him another couple of hours without any food before we give him some more. Just out of curiosity, are you seeing any solids in the poop?

Pidgey


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks for the reply , Yes I'll take the slower aproach and try to fed him a half feed before I go to bed. His poop seems to be dark brown with some white mixed in and semi solid, is that normal?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Are there solids in the "dark brown" part? One of the best ways to tell is to mix it up in some water and see if particles precipitate out. You can also pour the mixture through a paper towel and see if anything's left when the water filters through. But, at a guess I'd say that your description is a positive note--it means that stuff is moving through the piping.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Suzanne,

Sorry to have not been around, but I see Pidgey has been giving you excellent advice.

One thing about wood pigeons is that they are easily stressed and have the ability to contract their crops when stressed, so it could be that having his feeds too close together is upsetting him.

Cynthia


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes thank you , I have been getting excellent advise which seems to be doing the trick. I think the stress thing might be the reason for the regurgitation problem as I tried to feed the bird by the baggy and nipple method but it would'nt take the food ,so I open it's beak and syringe the food in but it struggles as I prise it's beak open . I have just given it 1/2 a feed ,all's well and the birds pooped again . Fingers crossed


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Persevere a bit with the baggie/syringe/nipple approach. Make certain that the food is warm (but not scalding) and that his beak goes well into it.

Cynthia


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Ok I'll try again tomorrow. I've checked the poo and the brown part is quite thick and slimey but generally the bird seems improved since yesterday, Thanks again. Amber suzanne


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello again, I've tried the baggy method of feeding again but no luck he just doen't seem that interested in food anymore. I'm still feeding little and often , He has regurgitated food back again twice today but is still pooping. His crop is always empty as I am only giving him a small amount every hour. Is it possible that something is stuck in his throat? When he swallows he seems to struggle and then regurgitate. Sorry to keep asking so many questions Ambersuzanne


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi,

I doubt that there is anything in his throat as he would not swallow.

I have lost track a bit here, but have you tried feeding him 4 hours apart?

What are you feeding him at the moment? At what temperature are you serving the food? (It should be 39 degrees, they don't like cold food)

We have a member in Northampton that has experience in rescuing woodies, would it be possible for you to drive down to see her? There is also a wildlife rehabber in Mansfield www.terrymarshwildliferescue.co.uk.

Cynthia


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello Cynthia, Thank you for the reply, Pidgey advise me to take it easy and go for the little and often approach for a while. I have been following the recipe that you gave me feeding it 10 ml every hour. The bird seems fairly well and is preening and quite active . I have just fed it again without any problems . My plan was to continue this regime today and to try to up the amount and space the feeds out a bit more tomorrow. It's just this regurgitating problem which is bothering me. I will get a thermometer and check the temperature of his food. If I dont get him stabilized by tomorrow night I will try to arrange to get him to Northampton on Sunday Best wishes Ambersuzzane


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It almost sounds more like an excitement/anxiety issue than a true health problem, especially if he's preening and active at others. At least it's not sounding like a real bad health problem.

Pidgey


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello Pidgey, I hope you are right, I seem to have spent the last 3 days feeding and worrying about him. I don't know what he's got to be anxious about ! Anyway thanks again for your help and support . I'll keep you updated. All the best Ambersuzanna


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> It almost sounds more like an excitement/anxiety issue than a true health problem, especially if he's preening and active at others. At least it's not sounding like a real bad health problem.


That is the impression I get. 

Cynthia


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello again, The bird is no better everytime I've fed it it's regurgitated the food back. I have started massaging it's crop which seemed empty and it regurgitated a collection of seeds none of which smelt bad [ I last fed this sort of small seeds to the bird 3 days ago] Ihave been searching the internet and found this info ....................... Birds with classic Candida lose weight, regurgitate frequently and show signs of listlessness. A reduced growth rate may be evident and a noticeable increase in begging may be observed. Babies are usually undersized and cry constantly. Dehydration, diarrhea, crop stasis and a crop puffiness, caused by lesions within the crop, may also be observed............... The bird is still active and pooping so some food must be going through it,although it make strange side to side actions with it's throat after it has swollowed anything, including water. I have given it some water with a little olive oil in it and a couple of drops of apple cider vinegar and nothing eles since 4 pm . Do you think it could be Candida and if so I believe I will need Nystatin where do I get this. Could you also give me the email address of the member you have in Northampton. Thanks Ambersuzanne


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This one hasn't shown signs of listlessness has it? As to medications like Nystatin, it's going to take one of the UK members to help you with that. It's different there than what we're used to here in The States. It's pretty easy to get medications here and some of us keep cabinets full of all kinds of medications, that one included.

Pidgey


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

No it's not listless and begs for food but as soon as I start to feed it , it loses interest . do you think it has slow crop? I've given it only fluid for 6 hours now and it's hungry , should I try to feed it ? Ambersuzanne


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You did well to get him to regurgitate the seeds. Often slow crop is caused by canker which narrows the exit, the more liquid food might be passing through.

You would need to go to a vet to check whether it is Candida and for a prescription of Nystatin. I have some in suspension but it was opened a couple of years ago and expired last July, so it might make matters worse.

In the meantime , after emptying the crop you might want consider following katiedidittwo2's instructions (baking soda is bicarbonate of soda):



> Give him 1/4 teasp of baking soda dissolved in 1/2 ounce water. Do not feed the pigeon for 2 days only water. On the 3rd day give only an ounce of feed in the morning and one ounce in the evening do not let the pigeon feed all day or he will relapse. Feed a high protien diet, 16%. Do not give him any whole corn. Corn will agiate his problem


. 

I will PM you Karen's telephone number. I can also send you a canker remedy if you PM me your address, but if you get to see Karen before Monday she should have some to give you. When my juvenile woodie had a crop problem the vet told me to treat him for canker while he ordered the Nystatin which he did not have in stock.

In the meantime keep Woodie's crop warm, you can do that by resting him on a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel.

Cynthia


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks for all this advise and info, It somehow helps knowing that people are worrying with me , Sorry I dont know how to PM but here's my email address [email protected]. I have just fed the bird a 1/2 feed , fingers crossed again. I will try the bicarb if the bird regurgitates this feed . Thanks for the phone number and your on going support. I'll update you tomorrow.


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello, Just a quick update on the wood pigeon, Sunday saw the problem get much worse with the food hardly being swallowed before being regurgitated. The bird was getting weak and looking really ill. I rang the emergency local vet who told me to take the bird to the local sugery the next morning and leave it with the receptionist. I know the policy with the vets is to keep the birds overnight and if they are not fit to release the next day they destroy them. So I decided against that idea. I rang a friend who's dad keeps racing pigeons, he gave me some spartrix tablets for canker. I gave the bird half of one. I went to Azda and bought some Caniston oral [medicine for human thrush-candida ] and took it to another friend who is a scientist and explained the problem . He worked out the correct dose after weighing the bird . I gave this to the bird. I went to bed hoping against hope that the medication would work. The next morning the bird was still alive and begging to be fed. I fed it , it swallowed the food without any problem and has not regurgitated all day, It has had normal feeds every 3 hours. The improvement is amazing and I'm really hoping that the bird is cured. I'm so relieved and happy !! Ambersuzanne


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's hard to say for sure why. The anti-canker drugs are usually of the Nitroimidazole family and these drugs help moderate the immune response besides being anti-protozoal. The disease form of canker is more a problem of the immune system running amok than the damage that the actual trichomonads actually do. There are some varieties that are more virulent (they'll the bulk of pigeons that are inoculated with them) but pigeons can even become immune to them if they've been exposed to a lesser variety.

Anyhow, sounds like a happy outcome for whatever the reason and good job!

Pidgey


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## ambersuzanne (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes a happy outcome hopefully. Thank you for being there with your invaluable advise . I'm sure the extensive knowledge of yourself and the other members save a lot of birds lives and help a lot of people like myself through birdie emergency's. Many hugs to you and Cynthia , Ambersuzanne


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I just went through this entire thread and don't see that I contributed anything worthwhile. However, it is nice having someone "worrying with you" sometimes. I can take credit for that, anyhow! In any case, you're welcome and you're not "out of the woods" until your woodie is out in the woods living his own life! So, keep us posted.

Pidgey


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