# Undergrizzle blue T



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

It *looks* like I got an undergrizzle from my friend. There's a couple grizzle feathers on the head. The wings have the grizzling and just a small bit of the tail. It's also on the underside around the keel.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looks normal grizzle to me, Undergrizzle can usually only be seen when the wings are spread.

I would think it was just a standard grizzle but the T pattern has inhibited its expression. Could be wrong but I have never seen an undergrizzle with grizzling on its underside and around the head.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I agree that undergrizzle rarely expresses in the head and body of a bird. As a general rule, undergrizzle is invisible in adult birds, except when spreading the wings and tail. 

At the same time, I don't really see the grizzle in the head or on the rump. I've never seen a T-pattern grizzle with so little grizzling on the head and body before, not even with dirty involved. 

This bird looks rather young still (though I could be wrong?!?!), and the feet doesn't look dark (so no dirty). I would wait untill it moults and see whether it changes. I reckon that the 'grizzling' on the rump might dissapear.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

This is an young bird. I would guess around 6-8 weeks. I got it shortly after it started to go outside. My friend practices little breeding control and sometimes I take in his birds for him shortly after weaning. I don't think dirty either as you can normally see some signs of it for awhile.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I agree that undergrizzle rarely expresses in the head and body of a bird. As a general rule, undergrizzle is invisible in adult birds, except when spreading the wings and tail.
> 
> At the same time, I don't really see the grizzle in the head or on the rump. I've never seen a T-pattern grizzle with so little grizzling on the head and body before, not even with dirty involved.
> 
> This bird looks rather young still (though I could be wrong?!?!), and the feet doesn't look dark (so no dirty). I would wait untill it moults and see whether it changes. I reckon that the 'grizzling' on the rump might dissapear.


Check out some of the blue T pattern frillbacks out there, Some have bugger all grizzling but that is down to dirty in most cases I think.

I have seen some that I would think were blue bars but I am assured by the frillbacks breeders that they are grizzle and that they have been select bred to be that way. I am still not convinced but would be interested to see what you think.

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=b...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ&biw=1525&bih=659


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks normal for my dark grizzles


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Check out some of the blue T pattern frillbacks out there, Some have bugger all grizzling but that is down to dirty in most cases I think.
> 
> I have seen some that I would think were blue bars but I am assured by the frillbacks breeders that they are grizzle and that they have been select bred to be that way. I am still not convinced but would be interested to see what you think.
> 
> https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=b...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ&biw=1525&bih=659


Frilbacks do seem to have a lot of drity in them to be able to get grizzles with so little grizzling on the body and head. On the other hand, there are many different dirty genes, not just a single one, and they may affect grizzle differently. The might even be another gene that causes darker or lighter grizzles (in T-pattern or bar or whatever).

As I have noted before, my T-pattern grizzles are very light when they are young, and moult to almost solit T-pattern shieds as they grow older (at about 2 years). While I have heard people say the opposite about their grizzles, sometimes becoming lighter (more grizzled) at the first moult. That is why I said that the mould might five is a better idea of the grizzle this bird carries.

The bird in this thread is probably just a blue, dark T-pattern grizzle.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Frilbacks do seem to have a lot of drity in them to be able to get grizzles with so little grizzling on the body and head. On the other hand, there are many different dirty genes, not just a single one, and they may affect grizzle differently. The might even be another gene that causes darker or lighter grizzles (in T-pattern or bar or whatever).
> 
> As I have noted before, my T-pattern grizzles are very light when they are young, and moult to almost solit T-pattern shieds as they grow older (at about 2 years). While I have heard people say the opposite about their grizzles, sometimes becoming lighter (more grizzled) at the first moult. That is why I said that the mould might five is a better idea of the grizzle this bird carries.
> 
> The bird in this thread is probably just a blue, dark T-pattern grizzle.


Yeah I agree, frillbacks have multiple dirty genes, I am trying to breed it out of mine at the moment for the sake of the ivory beak on my grizzle whites, I may just add dilute and see if that does it??? Smoky is not common in them so I would need to start from scratch with that one.

My racers start out white and darken up where my serbians start out dark and grizzle in a lot around the head. The serbians are all spread so this may be whats causing the difference. Maybe grizzle is not strong enough to show through the spread until the bird moults through the first time


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Frillback grizzle is separate we believe although there has not been much studying done on it. I have promised to work with it when I can. It doesn't act like normal grizzle where homozygous state makes a very light bird. It takes a lot of selective breeding to turn them all white, which all whites are supposed to be because it calls for an orange eye.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well, whatever this grizzle is I think this will be going on an agate. I want to see a tort with small amount of grizzle. But that is later on.


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